# My Patch Libraries have turned up on a torrent site. Is there anything i can do?



## BWA (Sep 27, 2020)

The title says it all. As a new business, this is very, very discouraging. I priced my first libraries low because i know a lot of people are hurting because of the pandemic and i still got ripped off. Any advice would be welcome as i feel like packing it in and giving up.
Thanks.


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## Markrs (Sep 27, 2020)

BWA said:


> The title says it all. As a new business, this is very, very discouraging. I priced my first libraries low because i know a lot of people are hurting because of the pandemic and i still got ripped off. Any advice would be welcome as i feel like packing it in and giving up.
> Thanks.


Not sure there is much you can do to be honest. I know that sucks. If it is on a website you can contact them to request the listing is removed and if the website that has a link to the torrent file is listed on Google I think you can report the site so it no longer appears on Google results when searching for your product.


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## Markrs (Sep 27, 2020)

BWA said:


> The title says it all. As a new business, this is very, very discouraging. I priced my first libraries low because i know a lot of people are hurting because of the pandemic and i still got ripped off. Any advice would be welcome as i feel like packing it in and giving up.
> Thanks.


Also please don't give up! I had a quick play with the library (bought it a couple of days ago) and I really liked it. It is great seeing new talent produce patches for Omnisphere


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## BWA (Sep 27, 2020)

Markrs said:


> Also please don't give up! I had a quick play with the library (bought it a couple of days ago) and I really liked it. It is great seeing new talent produce patches for Omnisphere


Thanks for the advice and kind words, Mark. I appreciate it very much.


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## RonOrchComp (Sep 27, 2020)

Sorry to hear :(

These people are scumbags. They don't care about you, your family, your property. They were probably raised in a foster home with no discipline and no respect.

Unfortunately, there is little you can do, outside of DMCA claims. Good luck!


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## gsilbers (Sep 27, 2020)

I was able to figure out who bought and later uploaded to a website/torrent.
Might of been luck that it happened at specific time of the release and the first buyers.
realized the guy was using different accounts as well.

And another one downloaded our freebie and uploaded to ebay and is selling it for like $18!!

but oddly enough, wordpress and other commerce sites dont have a way of blocking by city.

I think it would be neat to share who these torrent dudes are amonst developers so they can be block.
but many in FB groups didnt like it.
And also, they can use VPN and ghost emails to open the accounts.

I know the guys from cinesamples was able to figure out one dude form chile but its little they could do beyond having a US legal recourse agasint him.

thats the issue with world e-commerce.

Maybe try to figure out what country the torrent uploader is from if you can find out, and block that country :/ ? hopefuly is not usa and eu.

One idea i had a while back was to upload your own library to several torrent sites , several times but make them all fuked up one way or another. missing samples, corrupted rars, noise blasts, non funtioning gui and so on.
but also open several shill accounts to pretend its other users saying the library is fine. and its great and all that. so basically wasting their download time. My previous versino of this idea involved malware...
but hard to do legally of course 

Anyways.. seem many companies just suck it up and keep at it. native instruments specially is kinda meh about it... they must know there is a new key generator like the second a library is released.. .every.. fukin...time. but sales still justify it. USA and EU culture are more ethical, but other countries is just unheard to pay for software/digital stuff. 
Or do what spitfire and others are doing and have your own sampe library plugin. im guessing thats one of the resons these big libraries when their own way besides paying those kontak player fees.


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## BWA (Sep 27, 2020)

gsilbers said:


> I was able to figure out who bought and later uploaded to a website/torrent.
> Might of been luck that it happened at specific time of the release and the first buyers.
> realized the guy was using different accounts as well.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice and the ideas. I appreciate it.


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## olvra (Sep 27, 2020)

gsilbers said:


> USA and EU culture are more ethical, but other countries is just unheard to pay for software/digital stuff.



that's called xenophobia


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## davidson (Sep 27, 2020)

I was looking for newfangled audios free synth a couple of weeks ago and right there on the first page of google was a link to it on one of the pirate sites. A *free* synth ffs.


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## BWA (Sep 27, 2020)

davidson said:


> I was looking for newfangled audios free synth a couple of weeks ago and right there on the first page of google was a link to it on one of the pirate sites. A *free* synth ffs.


That's crazy. What would be the point?


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## MartinH. (Sep 27, 2020)

gsilbers said:


> One idea i had a while back was to upload your own library to several torrent sites , several times but make them all fuked up one way or another. missing samples, corrupted rars, noise blasts, non funtioning gui and so on.
> but also open several shill accounts to pretend its other users saying the library is fine. and its great and all that. so basically wasting their download time. My previous versino of this idea involved malware...
> but hard to do legally of course



I have trouble imagining any scenario where this doesn't backfire.


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## wwwm (Sep 27, 2020)

gsilbers said:


> My previous versino of this idea involved malware...
> but hard to do legally of course


Yeah, gonna go ahead and reinforce that that's a terrible idea.


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## gsilbers (Sep 27, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> I have trouble imagining any scenario where this doesn't backfire.



how so? (other than the malware)


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## Crowe (Sep 27, 2020)

In the digital space, piracy is inevitable. I grew up with this knowledge and have become desensitized to it.

It helps that the mindset of the average pirate is as such that they were never going to be a customer to begin with. Yet another type believes in trying before buying and may one day be swayed to being a customer.

EDIT: 

The problem I find, as a software developer even, is that data has no intrinsic value. It can be infinitely duplicated and therefore it will. There are laws in place that offer some protection, but nothing can protect us from the reality that data is just a collection of ones and zeros.

When it comes to sound libraries, it is always the *license* that interests me, more than the format in which the data is delivered. It's why large software companies trade in services and licenses, more than the software itself.

None of this helps you, I reckon. It probably won't change your views or make this easier on you. It just, is.


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## Locks (Sep 27, 2020)

Creative solution. Developers anonymously upload torrents of their own products but with cryptocurrency miners hidden in the source code. Make a bit of lost revenue back from the pirates.


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## Crowe (Sep 27, 2020)

Locks said:


> Creative solution. Developers anonymously upload torrents of their own products but with cryptocurrency miners hidden in the source code. Make a bit of lost revenue back from the pirates.



And thus we become criminals to punish criminals.


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## gsilbers (Sep 27, 2020)

Locks said:


> Creative solution. Developers anonymously upload torrents of their own products but with cryptocurrency miners hidden in the source code. Make a bit of lost revenue back from the pirates.



ooooooo.... nice!


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## MartinH. (Sep 27, 2020)

gsilbers said:


> how so? (other than the malware)



People could think your product genuinely suffers from bad QA and isn't worth wasting time on. They might take that "wisdom" with them and spread it in places where people hang out that are on the fence about buying your products. 

Torrent sites belong to the part of the internet I'd rather not provoke. It's really low effort to fuck with your business if someone has a grudge against you. They could DDOS your shop, or make purchases with stolen creditcards that later get charged back. Afaik those chargeback fees come out of your pocket. I remember reading about credit card fraud being a serious problem for indie game devs that try to roll their own store solution.



Locks said:


> Creative solution. Developers anonymously upload torrents of their own products but with cryptocurrency miners hidden in the source code. Make a bit of lost revenue back from the pirates.



Yeah, for sure a great idea to be known as the dev that injects cryptominers into their products (sarcasm!). I think it's naive to believe that the important _context _here doesn't get lost really quickly as the story gets told and retold. 

I get it that frustration results in a desire to do something, but I don't see what you could reasonably do, other than maybe tell the pirates to please buy your stuff if they like it because sales aren't getting you to break-even yet.


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## Locks (Sep 27, 2020)

I feel like I should quickly say that my comment was a joke and I'm not seriously suggesting anyone do this.


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## Kevinside (Sep 27, 2020)

I know, nobody want to hear that, but copy protection is the only way to avoid piracy...
East West using Ilok, VSL using ELicencer... Others use Watermarks on their downloads or using NI Access to avoid violation...

Copy Protection is the key to protect your property and your developement....
For example some Patch Creators use CR or SNs... Today, you have to seal your software to fight against all the piracy out there...


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## BWA (Sep 27, 2020)

Shiirai said:


> In the digital space, piracy is inevitable. I grew up with this knowledge and have become desensitized to it.
> 
> It helps that the mindset of the average pirate is as such that they were never going to be a customer to begin with. Yet another type believes in trying before buying and may one day be swayed to being a customer.
> 
> ...


Thanks you for the comments. It helps to read different views and i appreciate the input from everyone.
( nice avatar btw )


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## Uiroo (Sep 27, 2020)

RonOrchComp said:


> They were probably raised in a foster home with no discipline and no respect.


WTF dude.


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## el-bo (Sep 27, 2020)

BWA said:


> The title says it all. As a new business, this is very, very discouraging. I priced my first libraries low because i know a lot of people are hurting because of the pandemic and i still got ripped off. Any advice would be welcome as i feel like packing it in and giving up.
> Thanks.




The truth is that most people that illegally download your product are just digital hoarders, who wouldn't have bought the product. Of course, that might not be of any consolation for you. I'm convinced, however, that there are ways to convert these anonymous downloaders into loyal customers, with out-of-the-box thinking.

Ultimately, I'd suggest that you focus on building your brand on the various forums, and leave the torrent kiddies to spend all day counting their presets.

Either way, try not to panic.


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## Kony (Sep 27, 2020)

Agree with the do not panic sentiment. Theft is a thing unfortunately and it's hurt developers in lost revenue. Having said that, developers are still going strong so there is still a lot of good in terms of loyal, honest paying customers. I sound a bit like Sam in LOTR - "there's still a lot of good in this world worth fighting for, Mr Frodo!"


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## BWA (Sep 27, 2020)

el-bo said:


> The truth is that most people that illegally download your product are just digital hoarders, who wouldn't have bought the product. Of course, that might not be of any consolation for you. I'm convinced, however, that there are ways to convert these anonymous downloaders into loyal customers, with out-of-the-box thinking.
> 
> Ultimately, I'd suggest that you focus on building your brand on the various forums, and leave the torrent kiddies to spend all day counting their presets.
> 
> Either way, try not to panic.


Thank you for the advice. I'll try to take it to heart.


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## BWA (Sep 27, 2020)

Kony said:


> Agree with the do not panic sentiment. Theft is a thing unfortunately and it's hurt developers in lost revenue. Having said that, developers are still going strong so there is still a lot of good in terms of loyal, honest paying customers. I sound a bit like Sam in LOTR - "there's still a lot of good in this world worth fighting for, Mr Frodo!"


I just watched that movie last night!!


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## BWA (Sep 27, 2020)

RonOrchComp said:


> Sorry to hear :(
> 
> These people are scumbags. They don't care about you, your family, your property. They were probably raised in a foster home with no discipline and no respect.
> 
> Unfortunately, there is little you can do, outside of DMCA claims. Good luck!


Would you kindly remove the part about "being raised in a foster home"? My wife and i are trying to become foster parents and this is pretty offensive.


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## Kony (Sep 27, 2020)

BWA said:


> I just watched that movie last night!!


Been a while since I've seen them - will have to schedule an extended trilogy marathon soon!


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## tc9000 (Sep 27, 2020)

Don't give up. There are many potential customers out there that aren't pirates and are ready to pay for quality products, and, as many have already said, many pirates are just hoarders and not a lost sale. And if nothing else maybe some of todays pirates may become paying customers in the future...


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## RonOrchComp (Sep 27, 2020)

Uiroo said:


> WTF dude.



WTF what? Sorry, I don't follow you.


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## twincities (Sep 27, 2020)

i'm another of the camp that thinks there is a very VERY small crossover between people pirating software, and people who would have paid if it wasn't available to pirate. and really unless you're selling fruityloops/NI/ableton kind of numbers that cross section is most likely zero.


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## twincities (Sep 27, 2020)

RonOrchComp said:


> WTF what? Sorry, I don't follow you.


you implied people raised in foster homes are people with no respect, which is, to most anyone who has ever known anyone who has been through the system, or been through it themselves, incredibly offensive.


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## penfever (Sep 27, 2020)

Although it's tricky to pull off for small developers, and in the music software space generally, software as a service is much more resistant to piracy -- in some cases even immune.

Also, although the margins on iOS are considerably lower, so is the incidence of piracy -- although the App Store has its own issues.

I don't agree with those who argue that pirates were never going to be customers anyway -- actually, there's been data to suggest that pirates buy MORE of certain types of product than non-pirates. 









Piracy increases videogame sales, according to a report for the European Commission


Update, September 25: As it turns out, that European Commission report found that piracy actually increased the number of legitimate sales of videogames.A European Commission report on the effect of piracy on the legitimate sales of films, TV, books, music, and games has found that, eventually,




www.pcgamesn.com












Music sales are not affected by web piracy, study finds


Research commissioned by the European Commission Joint Research Centre finds that web piracy does not affect music revenue.



www.bbc.com





Some (not all) pirates are price-conscious, pirating software they can't afford. While it's still the wrong thing to do, there's a big difference between impoverished student piracy and profitable institutions using cracked software (which I have encountered more than once).

To say nothing of certain "musicians" ...








Top DJs spotted using pirated software - KitGuru


It says something about the software industry when it isn't just penniless students that are piratin




www.kitguru.net


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## Uiroo (Sep 27, 2020)

RonOrchComp said:


> WTF what? Sorry, I don't follow you.


That's incredibly childish of you.


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## BWA (Sep 27, 2020)

penfever said:


> Although it's tricky to pull off for small developers, and in the music software space generally, software as a service is much more resistant to piracy -- in some cases even immune.
> 
> Also, although the margins on iOS are considerably lower, so is the incidence of piracy -- although the App Store has its own issues.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the comment and the insights. In my case, one of the libraries that has appeared on the torrent site is on sale for $10us. If that's too expensive then i need to rethink how i'm spending my working hours, lol.


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## penfever (Sep 27, 2020)

By the way, forgot to add earlier: I'm so sorry this happened to you. It really, really sucks, and I wish you the best of luck with your business.


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## BWA (Sep 27, 2020)

penfever said:


> By the way, forgot to add earlier: I'm so sorry this happened to you. It really, really sucks, and I wish you the best of luck with your business.


That's very kind. Thank you.


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## leeverb (Sep 27, 2020)

Don't give up. I've bought all your libraries and they are definitely awesome and very well priced. People just pirate omnisphere libraries. The only thing that I have noticed is that libraries that use original sound sources and thus are usually larger in file size seem to be less pirated as they actually require someone buying the full sized library and uploading it. Not great advice I know just something that i noticed.


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## BWA (Sep 27, 2020)

leeverb said:


> Don't give up. I've bought all your libraries and they are definitely awesome and very well priced. People just pirate omnisphere libraries. The only thing that I have noticed is that libraries that use original sound sources and thus are usually larger in file size seem to be less pirated as they actually require someone buying the full sized library and uploading it. Not great advice I know just something that i noticed.


Thanks Lee.


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## RonOrchComp (Sep 27, 2020)

twincities said:


> you implied people raised in foster homes are people with no respect, which is, to most anyone who has ever known anyone who has been through the system, or been through it themselves, incredibly offensive.



Well, I apologize if I offended you, or anyone else. Certainly not my intent. However, I implied no such thing. If that's your takeaway, you read it wrong.



Uiroo said:


> That's incredibly childish of you.



And you as well my friend.


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## olvra (Sep 27, 2020)

Uiroo said:


> That's incredibly childish of you





RonOrchComp said:


> And you as well my friend.



omg, the irony


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## darcvision (Sep 27, 2020)

its very hard to avoid something like piracy problem, even big company couldn't handle something like that. all you can do is to become a great developer, keep creating good contents, makes customer happy, and they will respect your products.


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 27, 2020)

twincities said:


> i'm another of the camp that thinks there is a very VERY small crossover between people pirating software, and people who would have paid if it wasn't available to pirate. and really unless you're selling fruityloops/NI/ableton kind of numbers that cross section is most likely zero.


that small cross over is a lot of money to most people. 

even a 15$ library a few times a month pays the phone bill.

a 700$ library pirated even once is a large difference for the vast majority of people. That's the difference between eating steaks for a month instead of ramen noodles


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 27, 2020)

One of the ways I've seen is digital watermarking - takes time and manual effort for each library sold, but if someone uploads it - you can download it, figure out who's copy it is - and potentially be able to go after them legally for damages. 

it's not always successful, but the extra threat is nice - at the very least, you can blacklist them.


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## Loïc D (Sep 28, 2020)

Hmmm, every single piece of software ends up in the torrent dump.
I understand your concern but it’s pretty inevitable.

That should not prevent you from making new libraries. 
And you should not worry too much about people not even willing to spend 10 bucks on a library.
Your good customers should be your main focus


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## ptsc (Sep 28, 2020)

It is difficult to see, but I tend to agree with the idea that most of the people would not have bought it, or at least not yet.

You have:


People who can’t pay, and never will.
People who can’t pay _now_, but will later.
People who try it out first to make sure it’s worth their potentially very limited funds.
People who really just don’t care and want to play with it a bit.
People who just want it on their hard drive for some sort of compulsory quasi-religious data hoarding purpose.
Take away the option to get it for free, and how many additional sales would you then gain from _those_ people?

Group 1 and 2 simply can’t.

Group 3 _could_, but then of course we get into the whole “I hate this, why can’t I return or resell it” discussion.

Group 4 you ain’t getting sh** from.

Group 5… well I can’t explain group 5

And as far as RonOrchComp's “They don't care about you, your family, your property. They were probably raised in a foster home with no discipline and no respect.”

These aren’t some goblin-esque creatures cackling in a cave somewhere at the thought of you and your family going without food, they’re just everyday folk playing with toys. They’re not thinking that much beyond that. In fact it is often encouraged in their little notes and on forums that if you like it and have the money, support the developer and buy it.

And another thing, aside from what someone before me said about potentially damaging your brand, I can tell you the first thing anyone is going to do upon downloading an infected/messed with copy is download another one without skipping a beat.

And yes, it is likely obvious at this point that I have a history with this. And no, I’m not afraid to admit it. I’m a nobody, a hobbyist, my music never enters the ears of anyone outside my little network of friends. And each time I have the money, I replace whatever I have with a legitimate copy.

If it’s a good product and not ridiculously priced, you will get customers, and as the person before me says, they should be your focus.

Best,
-ptsc


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## ptram (Sep 28, 2020)

BWA said:


> My wife and i are trying to become foster parents


As the grandson of an adopted child that became a great woman, I want to thank you and your wife for this action! I wish you a lot of happiness!

Paolo


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## Markrs (Sep 28, 2020)

ptsc said:


> It is difficult to see, but I tend to agree with the idea that most of the people would not have bought it, or at least not yet.
> 
> You have:
> 
> ...


Thank you for being honest about this. Piracy is an oxymoron in that it is complex and also not. From a legal and moral point of view it is simply wrong. However most of the prices for this software are Western prices, so unaffordable in many countries. As a creative industry many that do it are young and have little money. Also some developers do not have trial periods or resell avenues that allow you to decide if you want something or not and for it not to turn out to be a large financial loss.

Again the above reasons don't make it right and certainly not on a $10 Omnisphere patches, but some of the reasons where it might be more understandable why it happens on particularly expensive sample libraries.


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## ptram (Sep 28, 2020)

penfever said:


> there's been data to suggest that pirates buy MORE of certain types of product than non-pirates.



"This document has been prepared for the European Commission however it reflects the views only of the authors, and the Commission cannot be held responsible for any use which may be made of the information contained therein."

It's a report prepared by members of the Pirate Party, and not an official document of the EU Commission. Then, we have to admit that that commission was led by a man that was the head of an offshore country where things like cryptocurrencies could find a welcoming pirate bay.

Paolo


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## ptsc (Sep 28, 2020)

Markrs said:


> From a legal and moral point of view it is simply wrong.



Oh yes, I certainly don't dispute anyone's moral high ground, I just think the "usual" reaction is a bit self indulgent and could stand some step-back-taking-ness. Words.


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## Voider (Sep 28, 2020)

Nothing you can do about torrents as they're peer 2 peer and nobody will try to find the homes of the users and ask them to stop upstreaming the data. But I wouldn't bother about torrent actually.

When it comes to filehosters on the other hand, you can open a case about copyright infringement and they will most likely take it down within a few business days. Only usenet is a bit sloppy as they want super hard evidence that you're the copyright holder. I do this all the time because my soundsets got widely distributed on illegal websites through tons of filehosters, but I took them all down and have an eye on reuploads.


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## BWA (Sep 28, 2020)

Thank you, everyone for the comments, insights and advice. many of you have given me a lot to think about and i appreciate it greatly.


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## twincities (Sep 28, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> that small cross over is a lot of money to most people.
> 
> even a 15$ library a few times a month pays the phone bill.
> 
> a 700$ library pirated even once is a large difference for the vast majority of people. That's the difference between eating steaks for a month instead of ramen noodles



obviously the real numbers based on peoples intentions are impossible to come up with, but i highly doubt it's $15 a few times a month. with an omnisphere preset pack, i'm thinking it's like 1 person, ever, if even that. with a big focus on the "if even that".

honestly, you're either a person who is morally okay with cracked software, has an account with these sites, leaves your computer up running p2p software 24/7, and would never think twice about spending a dime on something intangible. OR you're a person who regularly pays for software they use, understands you're paying for the labor that went into making these things, and when they can't afford something they want, waits a month, or for a sale to get it. 

there's a grey zone between those two of people who want to pay and do the right thing, but are broke and know they can't ever give the company money. but even when they make the decision to pirate, it's still not a lost sale. the person struggling to feed their family was never going to give you $15.

i know it's very easy for us all to have the image of the sneaky guy with money in his pocket who was ready to hit "purchase" on the site but then went to check the torrent site like some kind of coupon book and decided to take that version instead, but i really doubt that's ever how it goes down. if you're morally down the blackhole that "software should be free", nothing in this world is talking you into spending $15, even if there's a million in your bank account. they're not crimes of opportunity, they're people with systematic view points and were never going to support you.


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## tc9000 (Sep 28, 2020)

ptsc said:


> People who just want it on their hard drive for some sort of compulsory quasi-religious data hoarding purpose.



LOL!  This can happen to people  In their drive to posess everthing they become posessed by their posessions 🙃


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## thesteelydane (Sep 30, 2020)

davidson said:


> I was looking for newfangled audios free synth a couple of weeks ago and right there on the first page of google was a link to it on one of the pirate sites. A *free* synth ffs.



That happened with some of my free stuff as well. First I was pissed because it robs me of an email address of a potential customer, but then I realised people who download from torrent sites would probably never pay anyway...


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