# The most blatant case of plagiarism you will ever see. Gotta hear it to believe it.



## BradHoyt (Mar 17, 2016)

Hi all,

Friend and renowned guitarist/harp guitarist Stephen Bennett had an actual recording of a composition he performed ripped off by a guy named Jeff Martin (Former band-member of "The Tea Party and current member of the band "777")

To take not only the composition itself but the entire recording of the composition performed by the composer and to use it on your own album and call it your own is level of thievery I've never seen before. To hear for yourself, here's what Stephen posted yesterday:


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## wst3 (Mar 17, 2016)

wow... that's just awful!


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Mar 17, 2016)

Wow. This is crazy. Why would he do that?

Well, then again ... it's kind of clear why he'd do that. Because you can't do shit about it if you don't have the cash to buy yourself into the legal system (obviously avoiding the term "justice" here ).

Positive sidenote: this thread sparked my interest in the music of the gentlemen Bennett and Hoyt, and the enchanting sound of the harp guitar. I spontaneously feel like picking up one and learning it ...


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## handz (Mar 17, 2016)

I would not say it is the most blatant case. It is a stolen riff this happened zillion times already even with a super well known bands. Of course it sucks.


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## RiffWraith (Mar 17, 2016)

handz said:


> this happened zillion times already even with a super well known bands.



Like, who?


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## SterlingArcher (Mar 17, 2016)

RiffWraith said:


> Like, who?



Well, there has always been claims that Led Zeppelin stole some elements for their songs. At the moment that's one band I can think of off hand.

http://www.musictimes.com/articles/...tairway-to-heaven-that-led-zeppelin-stole.htm


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## sleepy hollow (Mar 17, 2016)

Why such a lurid thread title? Was that really necessary?

Sure, it's definitely not a nice situation for the guy, but it could be a lot worse. Like this story here:
http://vi-control.net/community/threads/music-thief-check-to-see-if-you-were-targeted.32732/


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## BradHoyt (Mar 17, 2016)

sleepy hollow said:


> Why such a lurid thread title? Was that really necessary?
> 
> Sure, it's definitely not a nice situation for the guy, but it could be a lot worse. Like this story here:
> http://vi-control.net/community/threads/music-thief-check-to-see-if-you-were-targeted.32732/



Truly sorry if I seemed a little overzealous. He's a long time friend of mine and I never saw a situation like this before where someone literally stole someone's entire track, laid overdubs over it and called it their own.

And yes, that story you're referring to is worse it seems!


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## BradHoyt (Mar 17, 2016)

handz said:


> I would not say it is the most blatant case. It is a stolen riff this happened zillion times already even with a super well known bands. Of course it sucks.



To be clear, Jeff Martin didn't just steal a riff. He overdubbed drums, bass, guitar, and vocals over Stephen Bennett's entire original recording! He's also singing the melody that Bennett's playing during a significant portion of the song.


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## RiffWraith (Mar 17, 2016)

SterlingArcher said:


> Well, there has always been claims that Led Zeppelin stole some elements for their songs. At the moment that's one band I can think of off hand.



I have seen that. There are some similarities there, but I am not hearing how Zep stole anything.


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## afterlight82 (Mar 17, 2016)

I don't know why this even needs discussion. I'd have had papers nailed to the guy's forehead instantly. There is an addition to the copyright law the guy needs to know about - willful infringement. That increases the damages substantially. It wouldn't go to trial, they'd have to settle - they have no case. He needs to talk to his lawyers again about 17 U.S.C. § 504(c)(2), and at the very least send a cease and desist and publicize it - simply getting to discovery (where he can subpoena the bank records and audit how much the track actually made, and haul this guy in for a very painful deposition) probably wouldn't be that expensive. He could also likely recover much more than the profits from the individual track, since the onus is on a defendant to show any costs (eg album sales) weren't related to that track specifically, which is reeeeeally hard. They can't even deduct taxes paid...

The judge would probably laugh the attorneys out of the room at the first conference. There's a reason most civil suits don't make it into a courtroom...


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## RiffWraith (Mar 17, 2016)

BradHoyt said:


> To be clear, Jeff Martin didn't just steal a riff. He overdubbed drums, bass, guitar, and vocals over Stephen Bennett's entire original recording! He's also singing the melody that Bennett's playing during a significant portion of the song.



Yeah, this is pretty bad. A full investigation needs to be done here. Jeff seems to blame his manager. Did the manager hand him the guitar part, and say, "here - I recorded this for you"? Or is he trying to make the manager the scapegoat?

Either which way, this can not stand. It's one thing to write something really close; it's another to copy someone's work directly. But using an actual recording of someone else's work is on a whole other level. AFAIC, this is an open and shut case. If you walk into an attorney's office with little to no money, and claim plagiarism on something that might be pretty close, the attorney might tell you to get lost, as there is no guarantee of a victory. But in a case like this, any decent attorney should see that there is really no way to lose this case. To that end, I don't think finding an attorney who will take a small retainer and work mostly under a contingency fee would be too difficult.

Tell your friend he has some support here, and that I personally wish him the best of luck with this.

Cheers.


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## BradHoyt (Mar 17, 2016)

Thanks for the feedback everybody.


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## marclawsonmusic (Mar 18, 2016)

Attorney$ are expen$ive. And, getting damages out of musicians is always a dodgy proposition. Even if it is a cut-and-dry case, and you win... collecting the judgement is not always guaranteed.

It's always best to settle things like this out of court if you can. Being on the right side of the law only goes as far as your pocketbook, I'm afraid.


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## thov72 (Mar 18, 2016)

still got the blues....


RiffWraith said:


> Like, who?


quote :"In late 2008, a German court ruled that Gary Moore stole the guitar solo for this song from the 1974 song "Nordrach" by the German band Jud's Gallery. The court ordered Moore and his record label to pay unspecified damages to Jud's Gallery band leader Juergen Winter, who brought the lawsuit."


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## BradHoyt (Mar 19, 2016)

Here's an update on this situation:


No apology...and not sure how overdubbing stuff over someone's recording and not asking for permission or giving proper credit can be an oversight... but it is what it is...


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## mc_deli (Mar 19, 2016)

That's a bit harsh. Seems like the guy has 'fessed up, wants to take responsibility and is trying to make amends. 
He could be given the benefit of the doubt at this point I think.


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## afterlight82 (Mar 19, 2016)

Nope - not too harsh at all, actually he's spot on.

From experience, that paragraph was probably drafted or edited by a lawyer. The giveaways - "whatever royalties exist, _if any_". Almost nobody says "if any" unless a lawyer told them to. When lawyers take depositions, or are in any situation involving direct examination, they aren't allowed to ask leading questions (only on cross-examination). So you can't ask "what were the royalties from this track", as an example, because the question leads - it assumes that there were royalties. So, a lawyer rephrases that to say "what, if any, royalties were earned from this track?". The giveaway is the "if any". It's legal-ese.

Secondly, a lawyer would have told the guy that damages might extend to the royalties from album sales - not just the individual track - which is why it's limited to this song; as well as the extended damages due from willful infringement, which it at least appears, he was just very very very careful not to admit, and perhaps to try and obfuscate. That's what it looks like, anyway.

"Not properly credited" - this is legal speak for "don't admit fault and say it wasn't licensed"...crediting wasn't the issue (obviously), the song and recording wasn't licensed at all. He's not 'fessing up...he's likely laying the ground work to try and settle for a pittance of what he is liable for, or to try and persuade a judge this wasn't willful infringement because it was some sort of "oversight".

IMHO, your friend needs a good lawyer, needs to make no representations or responses on Facebook or anywhere else in the public domain, certainly needs to not respond directly to the guy - definitely not, nor his lawyer - and needs to keep all his correspondence to his counsel from now on. He's probably got a winner, but it appears they're trying to trap him into the classic mistakes of either waiving his rights or diluting his own case.


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## afterlight82 (Mar 19, 2016)

Holy crap, it's actually worse than that. I thought for fun I'd listen to a couple of the guys other tracks. First one I picked was 



After ten seconds my jaw was open...anybody who knows their Arvo Part knows this is Cantus in Memoriam Benjamin Britten...

eg. 

Not sure which recording they used but anyone want to bet this wasn't licensed either? Guess this could be a game, spot which other tracks might have infringing use of other people's music. Anyone else got one?


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## afterlight82 (Mar 19, 2016)

Ah, no, I guess not. Maybe they did get that one:

http://www.waterfrontrecords.com/artist/19552


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## cc64 (Mar 19, 2016)

RiffWraith said:


> Either which way, this can not stand. It's one thing to write something really close; it's another to copy someone's work directly. But using an actual recording of someone else's work is on a whole other level.
> 
> Cheers.



I think i already mentioned something about this a while back on this site but this kind of thing certainly isn't new. The song below is built on a riff i played on the first Cirque du Soleil record from 1987. Around 2001 my 11 year old son asked me to buy him a Limp Bizkit record and i kept hearing this riff that sounded awfully familiar. Turned out they blatently sampled the first 8 bars of the Cirque vinyl and built a track from it. I checked the credits and nothing was mentioned about Cirque du Soleil or René Dupéré the composer... I called up René and Limp Bizkit settled with Le Cirque...Pretty crazy when you think how popular this band was at the time, that they could have gotten away with it if it weren't for me being interested in this record my kid listened to.

<iframe width="1280" height="720" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/FOXSA_41nKg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


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## BradHoyt (Mar 19, 2016)

I'm refer


afterlight82 said:


> Nope - not too harsh at all, actually he's spot on.
> 
> From experience, that paragraph was probably drafted or edited by a lawyer. The giveaways - "whatever royalties exist, _if any_". Almost nobody says "if any" unless a lawyer told them to. When lawyers take depositions, or are in any situation involving direct examination, they aren't allowed to ask leading questions (only on cross-examination). So you can't ask "what were the royalties from this track", as an example, because the question leads - it assumes that there were royalties. So, a lawyer rephrases that to say "what, if any, royalties were earned from this track?". The giveaway is the "if any". It's legal-ese.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your feedback. I've referred this forum thread to Stephen. Other than his initial statement, Stephen's been great about not engaging. Fortunately, he's got a lot of fans that speak up for him.


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## sleepy hollow (Mar 19, 2016)

BradHoyt said:


> Truly sorry if I seemed a little overzealous. He's a long time friend of mine and I never saw a situation like this before where someone literally stole someone's entire track, laid overdubs over it and called it their own.
> 
> And yes, that story you're referring to is worse it seems!


I see.

Well, I guess it's a good thing that your friend has already received a (written) statement from the guy who took the riff (I'm talking about what I read in your first post, not the recent statement you posted in your update). Of course this doesn't mean that all is well now, but I assume that your friend is halfway there.



afterlight82 said:


> Guess this could be a game, spot which other tracks might have infringing use of other people's music. Anyone else got one?


I spot those kinda 'similarities' all the time. I always seem to forget about these things, because part of me thinks "oh well, why bother..?", but I bet I could come up with a list of maybe ten cases that are really ...uh... strange - and that would just be a list of the tracks I came across in the past twelve months. Yeah, maybe we should turn this into a game.


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## lux (Mar 20, 2016)

there are of course strict similariities, but it sounds like an open strings folk blues riff, stuff that is not so difficult to happen by accident while noodling on the guitar, as the notes available arent that many there. Just tried myself a minute ago, and found the riff in about 3 seconds. I can expect it to happen every few decades by accident. Maybe the Jeff guy just heard the original riff and then forgot that it was someone else's. If you're a prolific player/writer it happens a lot. I understand the original writer, but an attorney involved for an open strings bluesy stolen riff? Really?


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## rottoy (Mar 20, 2016)

lux said:


> there are of course strict similariities, but it sounds like an open strings folk blues riff, stuff that is not so difficult to happen by accident while noodling on the guitar, as the notes available arent that many there. Just tried myself a minute ago, and found the riff in about 3 seconds. I can expect it to happen every few decades by accident. Maybe the Jeff guy just heard the original riff and then forgot that it was someone else's. If you're a prolific player/writer it happens a lot. I understand the original writer, but an attorney involved for an open strings bluesy stolen riff? Really?


I think it's not so much the riff that's in question as that it's Stephens ORIGINAL recording that's used in Jeff Martins "1916". Am I right?


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## lux (Mar 20, 2016)

oh, I probably missed that part, yes that would completely change the perspective


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## BradHoyt (Mar 20, 2016)

rottoy said:


> I think it's not so much the riff that's in question as that it's Stephens ORIGINAL recording that's used in Jeff Martins "1916". Am I right?


Yep. Martin basically took the entire Stephen Bennett solo harp guitar recording that was released some time ago, recording tracks over it (and actually sang to the melody played by Bennett in some sections) then called it his own... 

Crazy stuff..!


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## rottoy (Mar 20, 2016)

BradHoyt said:


> Yep. Martin basically took the entire Stephen Bennett solo harp guitar recording that was released some time ago, recording tracks over it (and actually sang to the melody played by Bennett in some sections) then called it his own...
> 
> Crazy stuff..!


Never trust a guy with a pencilstache.


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## SterlingArcher (Mar 21, 2016)

afterlight82 said:


> Holy crap, it's actually worse than that. I thought for fun I'd listen to a couple of the guys other tracks. First one I picked was
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Thank you very very much afterlight82 for introducing me to Arvo Pärt. Absolutely beautiful music


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## SterlingArcher (Mar 21, 2016)

rottoy said:


> Never trust a guy with a pencilstache.


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## sleepy hollow (Mar 21, 2016)

SterlingArcher said:


> Thank you very very much afterlight82 for introducing me to Arvo Pärt. Absolutely beautiful music


If you enjoy Pärt's music, you might want to check out Max Richter's stuff. I think you might like it.
But don't listen to me - listen to Richter, if you haven't already.


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## BradHoyt (Mar 21, 2016)

A surprising new way to be introduced to new music... what tunes did Jeff Martin add tracks to.  



SterlingArcher said:


> Thank you very very much afterlight82 for introducing me to Arvo Pärt. Absolutely beautiful music


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## rottoy (Mar 21, 2016)

BradHoyt said:


> A surprising new way to be introduced to new music... what tunes did Jeff Martin add tracks to.


Now we just need to add dubstep to Jeff Martins tracks and claim them as our own.
And encourage others to continue down that road. Wait, perhaps not.


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## afterlight82 (Mar 21, 2016)

SterlingArcher said:


> Thank you very very much afterlight82 for introducing me to Arvo Pärt. Absolutely beautiful music



Yeah, it's pretty incredible. It's also incredible live - years ago I was privileged to perform as a child in a candlelit performance of Passio at Brompton Oratory in London with the Hilliard Ensemble with Pärt sitting in the front row...now, I'm a complete atheist really, but this...well, is just sublime. It was right after the Dunblane shootings in the UK, possibly the most awful tragedy in recent memory in the UK, and it was the most extraordinary musical performance for just setting and ambiance and surroundings I ever remember, it made a huge impression on me. After the piece finished (it was the only thing in the program) there was probably a minute of silence - at least.

I always liked Henryk Gorecki but found it sometimes a bit self indulgent in construction whereas Pärt is just...it's like Mondrian in organization but Monet in emotion. (If you've not heard Gorecki, btw, the Symphony of Sorrowful Songs is worth a look.)



Particularly the opening, the counterpoint and the way it develops through the opening minutes of quasi-recitative. And unless you want to listen to it all, skip to the way it goes from the modal A minor stuff to the most sublime passage of straight D major writing ever...around 1:09:30 (qui passus est to the end of the piece)...

Annoyingly, I asked him for his autograph on a piece of manuscript paper after the gig (was the only thing I had to hand that was blank), and then managed to lose it in the years following in a house move where a bunch of boxes got lost. Which was annoying, because he sat down (despite loads of people around)...literally for about 10 minutes writing a little piece on it, before handing it to me. I hope it'll turn up one day!

He's also a phenomenal example of having complete control over your material. Nothing - nothing whatsoever - is out of place.


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