# What the hell happened to the education of our young?



## Lunatique (Jul 10, 2009)

I've been watching The Young People's Concerts (it was recommended to me by fellow VIControl member Greg Moore), and I was struck by how different the educational landscape was for our young back then. During the program on American music, Berstein had the orchestra (New York Philharmonic) play some pieces, and asked the children in the audience what countries the music reminded them of, and they correctly shouted out Spain, Hungary. Russia...etc. There is no way in hell children today in our country can do that. Maybe it's because the musical landscape has changed so much (rock and pop and urban music took over), or maybe because our educational system has mutated so much, but either way, today's children are culturally bordering on idiots compared to the children back then it seems. 

When I was around 15 (late 80's), I worked at a poster/frame shop owned by a Spanish owner. He liked me because I was a young aspiring artist with talent and passion, and I remember once we were having a conversation about the shallowness of modern youth culture, and he said "If you ask the children in Europe who Da Vinci and Michelangelo and Rembrandt and Tchaikovsky are, they would know, but in America, the children only knows Mickey Mouse and McDonalds." 

While watching Bernstein educate a generation of young people about music and how the children responded to him, I can't help but be reminded of what my old boss said.


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## StrangeCat (Jul 10, 2009)

sounds like your out of touch Man.

What has happened to the youth nothing they live in there time. There time is the Internet, stickam, facebook, There music is hip hop, RnB, Rock, Hardcore, House. Whatever is popular at this time what plays the clubs, where they can meet girls party have fun etc. 
What is cool for them is there time^_- Let them have there time your only 15 once.


Let's look at it from a perspective of a teenager(what is cool) well writing music in a major or minor key with dominate to tonic relations isn't to cool, not even writing in a mode with larger harmonic functions is cool. What's cool is beats and bass.
Music that makes you groove. It doesn't matter the style, it's what plays on the radio that they'll care about or hit up itunes.

why should they care about history of music and art? At most maybe they'll study the history of sampling and loops since that makes up all popular music they care about. (urband, hip hop, rap all that)

naa they care about what's happening now, teenagers live in the now probably more then anyone, that's what makes up the pop culture of today. what's cool is in. It's the psychology of sociology through out history in art and music.(cool is IN!)


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## StrangeCat (Jul 10, 2009)

can't forget about the teen girls either. When I think about Britney Spears and how her singing totally sucked LOL! But she would make 72 million year regardless of her singing, I can only assume to the teen girls Britney was pretty Cool WHAHAHA!

Disney is putting out all sorts of teeny pop artists that younger generation will think is cool. Disney is funny thing. Like an alternate reality where no one has hormones.

teen girls might be the only ones that would give a damn about Humanities. 

They might even still care in college maybe. In any case it's usually before teen years and after that the orchestra might be on the listening list for caring about music.

Tchaikovsky= Ballet....cool? Miley Cyrus=pop diva....cool Pretty sure Miley would win!


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## synergy543 (Jul 10, 2009)

Robert, I'm glad you got those DVDs and hope you're enjoying them as much as I do. I love watching them both for Berstein's enthusiastic interpretations and discussions as well as to watch the orchestra as it plays the pieces. I think its a great addition to orchestration study. There are other more "advanced" scholarly talks as well such as the ones at Harvard although I find these much more passionate and interesting.

About your question, I agree that today's kids (in America) lack a good general education in art. This isn't necessarily true in other countries such as Japan where my son went to Japanese public school until he was 10. Every kid in Japan can read and write music. Not so in America. Here in the wealthiest country in the world, we've mixed up many of our priorities (no money for education? What?) and in the process lost some focus on important programs such as the arts. Another reason for this is there are now so many more competing entertainment medias to distract us. Kids spread their time between texting, playing video games, watching TV, movies, computers, etc. So unless the parents help guide the children, its very easy for them to get lost in the sea of media, just as its easy to become overwhelmed with information overload today if you're not focused. And one last difference, is those kids lived in NYC. That was NOT a cross-spectrum of America in the late 50s but rather an elite group of kids that were fortunate to be in the right place at the right time. I wish I could've seen those but I wasn't born yet (nor did I grow up in NYC). So its great I can be a big kid now and watch them.

My question is: What happened to today's leading conductors and composers and why don't they have the charisma, enthusiasm, and charm of Bernstein? And why don't they share back the way Berstein did? The only one I can think of who comes close is possibly Dudamel. Although he's not a composer nor a pianist as Bernstein was.


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## synergy543 (Jul 10, 2009)

StrangeCat, having lived both in Japan and the US, I can tell you that kids in Japan love Rock N Roll, games and popular culture too. Yet, they are also educated in other areas such as the arts, science and math far beyond what the what the typical American would get even in a private school (my son went to a public school in Japan and private schools here in the US). There is no reason, kids can't enjoy popular cultures and media and still be educated in other areas too. The two are NOT mutually exclusive.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 10, 2009)

These kids today.


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## StrangeCat (Jul 10, 2009)

Humanities is taught all through High school and on through college. It's up to the kids to want to take those classes and learn more about the arts.

well I pretty sure I completely described the kids in the US psychology.


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## Jaap (Jul 11, 2009)

Nothing happened to the youth, they develop as usual. All generations always ask "what happened to the youth". We are just getting old


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## lux (Jul 11, 2009)

agree with Jaap here


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## Lunatique (Jul 11, 2009)

It's not so much what happened to our youth, but our education of the youth. Just roaming around online and reading comments posted by young people in forums, youtube, AOL news...etc, it seems most are about as smart as a Golden Retriever, and about as cultured or educated. 

Greg - I think you'll really enjoy these TED talks--very similar in spirit to Bernstein:
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/benjamin_zander_on_music_and_passion.html (http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/benj ... ssion.html)

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/evelyn_glennie_shows_how_to_listen.html (http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/evel ... isten.html)

I think you're right about the children--they were probably the elite and many young musicians themselves. I don't think they'd just gather any random group of children and put them in Carnegie Hall. I bet the parents and the children loved being there and lined up for tickets to be there.

I must thank you for pushing me to get the DVD's. They are really wonderful, rightfully called a national treasure. Bernstein is such a pleasure to watch as both educator and conductor. He's probably my favorite conductor because you can just feel his love for music through his body language--the guy practically dances on the podium. I also find his gestures very clear, expressive, and effective. I bet the musicians loved him as well. His knack for explaining complex ideas to children is really something to behold--just an amazing and wonderful educator.

I have this book called The Maestro Myth, which dishes all the dirt on how famous conductors rose to power--quite scandalous and a fun read. In it, Bernstein was painted as someone who had all the right qualifications for becoming the most powerful and famous conductor in history, but he had one problem--his slobbery, sweaty, passionate personality scared the aristocrats and royalties. When he would tightly embrace a royal princess or queen after a sweaty perfomance--it was like a loving Saint Bernard slobbering all over people--endearing, but kind of gross. Apparently, the high society preferred less down to earth cool cats like Karajan or stokowski.


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## StrangeCat (Jul 11, 2009)

US isn't United the US is like tiny little countries, each state is a country. I don't think all places have a very good education system. Also I don't think Arts in General is something that the US is known for. They really would have to revamp there whole education system. Most people on forums and like say Youtube are downright negative to began with and to critical. I wouldn't take any of it to seriously, there a lot of trolls out there^_-


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## Jaap (Jul 11, 2009)

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## Stevie (Jul 11, 2009)

ROFL, that Benjamin Zander is hilarious!
So entertaining, thanks for those links :D

EDIT: I watched it to the end, he's not only entertaining 
but also brilliant and touching. Just wanted to add this.


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## TheoKrueger (Jul 11, 2009)

television ate their brains for breakfast


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## nikolas (Jul 11, 2009)

We are DEFINATELY getting old. But not old enough to be Bernstein ourselves...

Then again, instead of complaining we could attempt to do the same, maybe in smaller scale. Work on tutorials, share knowlegde and experience, provide feedback. 

Yikes! We already do that! 



Times are changing and although a new Bernstein would be extra cool, but I do feel that I'm doing my part on tutoring (lightly) a kid of 16 years of age from Abersteen on composition. For free. We do it for fun and it gives me great pleasure. I've also done tutorials, guides, was preparing a book on orchestration (to be distributed for free), and other things, so this is my way to help and educate those who wish it.


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## dcoscina (Jul 11, 2009)

My wife teaches grade 6 music and she recently played Peter and the Wolf during the section on instruments of the orchestra and they LOVED it. She asked them to describe the instruments playing by their timbral qualities- and these are 11 year olds. All is not lost.


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## billval3 (Jul 11, 2009)

Jaap @ Sat Jul 11 said:


> The world is growing bigger and more diverse.



In my opinion, we have the problem that American people are insulated in general. We're only generally interested in what's happening on our gigantic island. Many of the kids only reflect the attitudes of their parents.

On the other hand, there are plenty of kids being educated about the world and the world's music, but yeah, you might not be able to tell that from spending time on youtube.


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## schatzus (Jul 11, 2009)

As I am sure all of our parents said at one time, "Kids these days!"

...or as Abe Simpson said, "I used to be 'with it', but then they changed what 'it' was. Now what I'm with isn't 'it', and what's 'it' seems weird and scary."
:D


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## Lunatique (Jul 11, 2009)

synergy543 @ Sat Jul 11 said:


> btw, Robert, did you ever get the other video I suggested? - http://www.amazon.com/Mornings-World-matins-monde-Two-Disc/dp/B000CSUNRU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1247335259&sr=8-1 (All the Mornings of the World)
> 
> Don't miss this one, its an absolutely beautiful movie with wonderful music about an aspiring student and his master. I highly recommend it to everyone else too.



It's on my shopping list for my next round of purchases. My last round of purchases was concentrated on instructional material (I brought back nearly 100 lbs. worth of books, DVD's, musical gear...etc, and paid about $184 extra to the airline for that extra weight). I have a bunch of other films on my next shopping list such as Army of Shadow, Farinelli, Au Revoir Les Enfants, The Sacrifice, Spirit of the Beehive (I've seen this many year ago on VHS and loved it)...etc.


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## spectrum (Jul 12, 2009)

It's going to be exciting to see what effect Gustavo Dudamel has on the youth of Los Angeles and the US. He and Jose Abreu are definitely on a mission to bring the kind of incredible musical education they have pioneered in Venezuela to the US. 

If you haven't seen this, check it out....pretty inspiring stuff:

http://www.ted.com/talks/jose_abreu_on_kids_transformed_by_music.html (http://www.ted.com/talks/jose_abreu_on_ ... music.html)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 12, 2009)

Absolutely, Eric. I posted about him after seeing him with the El Systema orchestra about a year and a half ago. Wow was it exciting.


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## Dave Connor (Jul 12, 2009)

spectrum @ Sun Jul 12 said:


> It's going to be exciting to see what effect Gustavo Dudamel has on the youth of Los Angeles and the US. He and Jose Abreu are definitely on a mission to bring the kind of incredible musical education they have pioneered in Venezuela to the US.
> 
> If you haven't seen this, check it out....pretty inspiring stuff:
> 
> http://www.ted.com/talks/jose_abreu_on_kids_transformed_by_music.html (http://www.ted.com/talks/jose_abreu_on_ ... music.html)



Absolutely is right. This is the right guy at the right time. We need a rock star in the classical field here in LA and Dudamel has that in spades. He has an infectious spirit of enthusiasm that could ignite not just the young (though very important) but all generations. Can't wait to see him!


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## Stevie (Jul 14, 2009)

nikolas @ Sat Jul 11 said:


> Times are changing and although a new Bernstein would be extra cool, but I do feel that I'm doing my part on tutoring (lightly) a kid of 16 years of age from Abersteen on composition. For free. We do it for fun and it gives me great pleasure. I've also done tutorials, guides, was preparing a book on orchestration (to be distributed for free), and other things, so this is my way to help and educate those who wish it.



This sounds great Nikolas!
Really looking forward to it :D


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## nikolas (Jul 14, 2009)

Brian Ralston @ Wed Jul 15 said:


> On the side, I actively do as much as I can for young musicians and I encourage everyone else here to do the same, in your own way. I do arrangements for high school groups. I do clinics for students and visit some schools to give them a taste of being a professional musician. I have even used one high school band to record on one of my film scores (GRADUATION)...and used the whole experience as a teaching moment. Needless to say, the kids, their band director and the school was very excited about the opportunity. Everything was done properly and the paperwork was done so their participation and recordings could be used. And they got to experience a real recording session for a film. We were only doing an arrangement of Pomp & Circumstance...but still. They loved it. Hopefully in the future, I hope to be able to participate in the Disney Magic Music Days program as they work with the various groups who visit and perform in the parks. I have friends who do it now and I hope to get the opportunity myself.


Very cool stuff! Well done Brian!

(Thanks Stevie)


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## Lunatique (Jul 15, 2009)

It's awesome to see everyone making an effort to nurture and educate the next generation. For myself, I'm still struggling to become competent musically, as I'm self-taught and am studying theory and orchestration on my own, not to mention teaching myself to excel on the instruments I play. It'll be some time before I actually feel like I have experienced enough to give back. But as an artist, I've done lots of giving back to the next generation--from teaching art schools, giving public talks, teaching workshops, and answering questions via forums and emails. I'm currently working on the course material for a workshop for cgsociety.org (the largest international CG community in the world), where I'll be passing on the most essential knowledge and skills I've acquired as an artist to date.


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## Lunatique (Jul 15, 2009)

You can see all my creative works on my website (www.ethereality.info), including artworks, music, photography, writings...etc. 

As for building chops, I'm still a ways from playing really hard stuff. I don't know what my actual level is on the piano since I've never been assessed, but I know I'm not confident enough to play live gigs unless it's very easy pop/rock stuff or simple easy listening/smooth jazz.


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## Waywyn (Jul 16, 2009)

"What the hell happened to the education of our young?"

I think, if there would have been forums for the last 1000 years, you would see those words on at least every forum once every year, no? :D


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## poseur (Jul 16, 2009)

Waywyn @ Thu Jul 16 said:


> "What the hell happened to the education of our young?"
> 
> I think, if there would have been forums for the last 1000 years, you would see those words on at least every forum once every year, no? :D


no doubt, this is a truism;
i don't at all disbelieve karr's statement,
"plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose".

of course,
this doesn't relieve the humane from their need to see, feel & address the specific & timely issues
present during their own brief walks on this breathing blue/brown/green sphere.

while the background nature & motivations of all things human & cultural
may be seen to be vigorously & similarly woven throughout the unified blanket of history,
the distinct expressions of that nature certainly _do_ change.....
and, while your parents may have said what you may say, now,
vis á vis youth/education etc,
there is no real compassion nor helpfulness made available to current youngsters
w/o making some effort towards our own abilities to perceive,
mark & know the differences between the world of your youth, & the world of theirs.

same as it ever was:
broadly? yes..... 
specifically? no.
or: maybe,
but that doesn't matter as much as our own responses to the times,
and in what & which activities we take part, based upon our root-level attitudes.

in my middle-class, immigrant, american upbringing,
there was no supper w/o absolutely lively discussion & argument;
dictionaries, atlases, newspapers & --- my folks' prized possession, at the time ---
an encyclopedia were ever-present at the family table.
culture:
music, the theater, the visual arts, films, politics, sociology, etc were taken-for-granted
as our lingua franca.
there was nothing forced about it, nothing twee or precious:
that was it..... and we children were expected to become naturally & continuously 
more well-versed in it.
an ongoing education, at home.
public school was, largely, only a bit of a support for that,
and was occasionally problematic for us.

my older sister was sent into theater-groups;
i was wacked over the head with the piano @ age 6, the flamenco @ age 12,
jazz guitar studies @ age 13.
we both attended bernstein's concerts, & continued with his music for young composers course..... forced to do so, by my folks,
though these things did not sit well, at all, w/our peers & social groups.

there was educational & cultural accountability & personal responsibility
on our parents' parts, i think.

raising 2 children --- both, now men ---
we did much the same.
takes discipline. takes accountability. responsibility.
difficult, sometimes..... but, seemed like a "need", to us, so.....

though i've taught, i'm not a teacher.
i continue to advise, positively & w/real fervor, whomever i can
& in whatever ways seem useful to me;
in writing, over the 'net, by phone, via occasional university-based "mentorships", master-classes, etc.
in any case,
the model of "pedagogy" can, even outside of more formal circumstances,
still be positively pursued on a daily basis, in daily life, without pause.
of course,
i think that "great deeds" in these regards are, well, great!;
still: small, regular efforts can also have (or, seed) remarkably healthy effects..... 

my most major props to those dedicated in this.

anyways, just rambling, here..... sorry for lack of linear point-making.....

d


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## NYC Composer (Jul 16, 2009)

Jaap @ Sat Jul 11 said:


> Nothing happened to the youth, they develop as usual. All generations always ask "what happened to the youth". We are just getting old



+54


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## artsoundz (Jul 16, 2009)

With regard to education and music- I see the opposite to what is proposed in this thread and that is Kids are absorbing and appreciate all kinds of music. The tools available to them-youtube instruction,computers/software, have really changed the educational landscape and these kids are sponges. Kids dig science-art- and on and on. Put it in front of them and the majority are going to respond just like we did.

Byt there are a hell of lot more people now than back in my day and it's easy to get caught up in what we perceive as "bad" music. But I'm not buyin things are worse. I dont remember hearing as many monster jazz musicians back in the day as I do now and they are KIDS. KIDS are blowin like they are 50 years old.

So music is in great hands. The kids are doing as remarkable job and on the whole, even outside "arts" kids/young people are doing great things in this world. It's easy to see the negative but I really believe all is good.


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## Dave Connor (Jul 16, 2009)

As far as the education system here in California, there are too many problems to count (of which the budget crisis is only one.) Music, art and other programs are being gutted right and left. This in an already underfunded, understaffed public school system. Whatever the values of the internet there is no substitute for the classroom unless it's private study and only a very few ever go down that road.


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## chimuelo (Jul 17, 2009)

Yeah, I like the way the Lottery was going to take care of 40% of public schooling.
When you vote for politicians who have Zero business skills, or better yet Movie Stars you get higher taxes to cover their poor management of funds.
N. and S. Nevada are thriving due to the huge migration of business from Silicon Valley and SoCal.
But wait there's hope.......................
http://www.national-lottery.com/news/ca ... lts-uk.asp

If we have to pay for these clowns to go get help running the state lottery, what the hell are they still doing in office....?
I encourage everyone to vote for anyone with business skills next time around.
My personal property taxes takes me 2 months of savings every year to keep our house up North.

Cutting and underfunding of our public schools in CA. are because of the Union and the Cronies in Sacramento that take their campaign funds from them. It's a damn shame that parents are too busy to care as they hurry back and forth from work.

And I agree that our children are doing fine, but not because of some over paid Union school teacher, because of parents wanting the best for their children and spending time with them.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 17, 2009)

If I may say, what an interesting topic and specifically to Poseur...

I very much enjoyed your reflections.

Additionally, I can't remember the last time I saw the word 'twee' used.

I don't have a lot to add,except to say that at least in recording, the democratizing
and affordable nature of recording technology have added possibilities of expression that I could only dream of as a youngster and hopeful recording artist. Heck, Garage Band alone makes the automation, effects and track count I used to deal with in early pro studios look ridiculously limited by comparison....so there's that.


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## poseur (Jul 18, 2009)

NYC Composer @ Fri Jul 17 said:


> I very much enjoyed your reflections.
> 
> Additionally, I can't remember the last time I saw the word 'twee' used.



thanks, larry; coolio!

re: that word, _twee_:
i spent a fair amount of time working in/out of london uk, in the '80's & '90's.
we had a flat there (in belgravia SW1) in the late '80's.

the word still works for me..... sometimes!

d


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## NYC Composer (Jul 19, 2009)

poseur @ Sun Jul 19 said:


> NYC Composer @ Fri Jul 17 said:
> 
> 
> > I very much enjoyed your reflections.
> ...



Well, it WAS their language. We 'mericans just sorta borrowed it.


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