# On another Zimmer topic



## NYC Composer (Jun 21, 2009)

I'm going to bring up what could be an incendiary topic, and implore people to reply judiciously and thoughtfully.

On the Zimmer topic: does it bother any of you working film composers, budding film composers , et al, that Mr. Zimmer has created a music house intended to suck up all the film work out there? It's just business, of course, but it's the sort of corporatization of film music that we've long known here in New York for jingle/commercial underscoring work. The big music houses get most of the work with power lunches,big advertising budgets, contacts, giveaways and celebrity factors ( bringing in known big names to sing or perform on commercials), leaving smaller companies or composers to join them or fight for scraps in the street. 

So, does it bother you? Do you disagree with the premise of the question? Is this something that can be discussed ( please) calmly?


----------



## Ed (Jun 21, 2009)

I suggest this should be moved to Off Topic


----------



## nikolas (Jun 21, 2009)

NYC Composer @ Sun Jun 21 said:


> So, does it bother you? Do you disagree with the premise of the question? Is this something that can be discussed ( please) calmly?


Well... it's business so it'a understandable. Pretty much why people don't really like Tescos or Wall-mart! Too big!

Now I wouldn't want to mingle what Zimmer does with anything artistic (although I like quite a few of his themes), so I can't say there's anything deeply wrong in what he does.

Of course such huge business models are what made the economy what it is today, but this would take us all day to analyse (like we have anything better to do! :D), so there's always hope that Zimmer et al might close down in the end...


----------



## Ashermusic (Jun 21, 2009)

Yes, it bothers me.


----------



## NYC Composer (Jun 21, 2009)

Well well. Since this topic got moved from Sample Discussion. and this is the politically correct place for it, I think I'll keep it on top of the list for the next few months. Any comments or opinions or answers re my questions? Thanks.


----------



## madbulk (Jun 21, 2009)

Didn't bother me till you made me think about it that way. I'm quite bothered now, yes.


----------



## NYC Composer (Jun 21, 2009)

I certainly hope no one can 'make' you think anything.

As I stated before, this is a phenomenon with a long history in
the NYC jingle/commercial underscoring market. There's probably
some history of it in the film music industry as well-I've just
never heard of it.

For the record_ I'm not a Zimmer basher. I generally think his scores
are good sounding and appropriate to the material he scores.
Genius is way subjective, but I think he does his job well.


----------



## Ed (Jun 21, 2009)

NYC COmposer, this seems like a really important topic to you. Did a job get stolen from under you by them or something? It just seems more personally a problem to you.


----------



## NYC Composer (Jun 21, 2009)

Ed @ Sun Jun 21 said:


> NYC COmposer, this seems like a really important topic to you. Did a job get stolen from under you by them or something? It just seems more personally a problem to you.



Really, Ed? Please clarify for me_ what strikes you as 'personal'?
I notice by your posts that you're a Hans Zimmer fan . Good for you. Please see my previous post-I'm not a basher, nor am I generally a fanboy ( of anyone). I do respect his work, but I find this corporate trend in film music to be oddly reflective of how the commercial/underscoring/jingle business is done in NYC.

No, no job has been stolen from me by Mr. Zimmer. Perhaps you would care to comment directly on the question I raised, rather than commenting on my supposed personal issues? 

Thanks.


----------



## Ed (Jun 21, 2009)

Im not trying to be sarcastic. I just mean you've posted again in the sample lib section trying to get people to reply to this, it doesnt seem like casual question. So I have to wonder did something happen to you that prompted this concern for Zimmer style film-score companies?


----------



## johncarter (Jun 21, 2009)

I dont think remote control is intended to "suck up" all the work. Since they mostly do the big movies I don't think they steal any of our jobs !

Moreover remote control ( and former "mediaventure" ) brought us many
talented film composers : john powell, harry gregson williams, klaus badelt... henry jackman.

Remote control sound is the "sound" producers are looking for at this present time.

Eventually it will be out of fashion in a few years , it has always been like this in film music. Hermann in the 60s, john williams in 70s (reinvented the orchestral scores ) , alan silvestr and james horner for the 80s ... Zimmer in the 90s - 2000 s - 

Who's next?


----------



## NYC Composer (Jun 21, 2009)

johncarter @ Sun Jun 21 said:


> I dont think remote control is intended to "suck up" all the work. Since they mostly do the big movies I don't think they steal any of our jobs !
> 
> Moreover remote control ( and former "mediaventure" ) brought us many
> talented film composers : john powell, harry gregson williams, klaus badelt... henry jackman.
> ...



FINALLY- a thoughtful response. THANK you.

My understanding is that Remote Control's mandate is to do small films, big films, anything they can get their hands on. To essentially corner as much of the market that they can. Now, this is scuttlebutt from a staff assistant or two I've spoken with, so who knows...but if that were actually the situation, would you feel the same way?

As far as I know, Hermann didn't have a large staff of 'undercomposers' aggressively pursuing work. Nor John Willams, nor Alan Silvestri. I could definitely be wrong.


----------



## NYC Composer (Jun 21, 2009)

Ed @ Sun Jun 21 said:


> Im not trying to be sarcastic. I just mean you've posted again in the sample lib section trying to get people to reply to this, it doesnt seem like casual question. So I have to wonder did something happen to you that prompted this concern for Zimmer style film-score companies?



Asked and answered...was there something unclear about my response to your question when you asked it the first time?


----------



## Niah (Jun 21, 2009)

NYC composer,

I'm not really sure about the purpose of this thread since what you are asking here was already widely discussed on that other zimmer thread a while back.

I'm am not sure also if people have more to say than what was already said.

but to answer, it's like Lauren would say "I ain't bovered!" :lol: 

Also I find it odd since I don't see any A list hollywood composers in here, so why talk about loosing jobs to zimmer and co? How can that happen if no one here is in the same league as these guys or even in the same market...
But maybe I am wrong, maybe James Horner or John Williams post in here. :lol: 

Another thing is that I haven't seen a composer helping other composers more than Zimmer. Zimmer put many composers on the map and got them gigs and jobs...so this notion about zimmer taking jobs out of composers seems ludicrious to me. But then again it's just how things look from here I could be wrong.


----------



## johncarter (Jun 21, 2009)

Yeah and he's giving part of royalties to his additionnal composers and ALSO , and it's a first he even put the name of dark knight music editor on the cuesheets.... I wish I can have my name on the cuesheets just for doing music editing :D


----------



## NYC Composer (Jun 21, 2009)

Niah @ Sun Jun 21 said:


> NYC composer,
> 
> I'm not really sure about the purpose of this thread since what you are asking here was already widely discussed on that other zimmer thread a while back.
> 
> ...



HI Niah.The purpose of this thread is to posit a question regarding a situation I've been thinking about, and to garner thoughtful responses from the well informed and intelligent professionals and hopeful amateurs here. If that's not purposeful enough for you, well...this IS, after all the 'musings' section to which my topic has been assigned :D 

That having been said, I have no worries about James Horner or John Willams. If it's true that Remote Control is going after small films as well, I'm concerned about 'the rest of us'.


----------



## NYC Composer (Jun 21, 2009)

johncarter @ Sun Jun 21 said:


> Yeah and he's giving part of royalties to his additionnal composers and ALSO , and it's a first he even put the name of dark knight music editor on the cuesheets.... I wish I can have my name on the cuesheets just for doing music editing :D



I'm with you on the second part! The first part...umm...you mean he's 'giving' royalties to people for the music THEY'VE written? Nice!


----------



## johncarter (Jun 21, 2009)

NYC Composer @ Sun Jun 21 said:


> johncarter @ Sun Jun 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah and he's giving part of royalties to his additionnal composers and ALSO , and it's a first he even put the name of dark knight music editor on the cuesheets.... I wish I can have my name on the cuesheets just for doing music editing :D
> ...



In the music business, that's not SO common as you may think to have royalties on additonnal music you've written...
I know quite a few composers who dont care at all about that , just because they wrote 90 % of a score and additionnal composers wrote 10 % of additional music, they dont want to give away their 10 % of royalties ... if it's a big movie that could be thousand of dollars of "loss" :D


----------



## NYC Composer (Jun 21, 2009)

johncarter @ Sun Jun 21 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun Jun 21 said:
> 
> 
> > johncarter @ Sun Jun 21 said:
> ...



I've actually been IN the music business for some 35 years.I'm aware of certain inequities. I'll not being crying about the slight loss of revenues by zillionaires, nor celebrating their largesse in doing what they should have done in the first place, but that's me.


----------



## lux (Jun 21, 2009)

Niah @ Sun Jun 21 said:


> But maybe I am wrong, maybe James Horner...post in here



fuck! time to find another forum. Thanks Niah.


----------



## NYC Composer (Jun 21, 2009)

darn...Luca is Horner! I THOUGHT his font looked familiar.


----------



## lee (Jun 21, 2009)

lux: Haha!

Being a bit nerdy, I sometimes wonder which member of vi-control (or northernsounds?) who has scored the "biggest movie". :oops: :D
Pathetic isnt it?


----------



## Ed (Jun 21, 2009)

lee @ Sun Jun 21 said:


> Being a bit nerdy, I sometimes wonder which member of vi-control (or northernsounds?) who has scored the "biggest movie". :oops: :D
> Pathetic isnt it?



http://priuschat.com/forums/members/proco-albums-emoticons-picture523-pissing-contest.jpg (http://priuschat.com/forums/members/pro ... ontest.jpg)


----------



## NYC Composer (Jun 21, 2009)

Gee, Ed. That was thoughtful. Witty rejoinder.

I remember 24 ( sigh)


----------



## Hal (Jun 21, 2009)

ill think of this in another way
do i mind joining MV....NO
if am in HZ place would i think of doing the same....YES.

so obviously i dont have any problem with whats happening.

but as am not part of MV i dont get all this opportunities they are getting,all the experience,i am small so hell yeah this bothers me ALOT 

Cinema is business,Music is business as everything else is.
U know u still have small groceries and bakery while there is things like Carrefour.

u will survive u will have great life and good money only one thing u probably aint gonna make Zillions.


----------



## TheoKrueger (Jun 22, 2009)

To be honest, no, it doesn't bother me at all.

The reason being that after seeing how the smaller composers work and are, all the individuality, elitism, overbloated egos, self righteousness, self-claimed authenticity and source secrecy in the business, it looks like most people care for themselves and little beyond that.

Of course, there are also great people out there as well, who would help another person open-heartedly and are more humble in spirit. But they are the few in the lot.

So seen from this perspective, not only do I not get angry, but I commend the man on doing such a good work in his music and business and expanding it as much as he can.

Also, the music such a company produces is always in analogy with the people working for it. One man alone can't produce 500 minutes of music in a week. But if he has hired another 50 people, each one working in their post, the example 500 minute barrier is possible.

Engineers, technicians, producers, sample specialists, patch designers (Zebra 2 that I know of ) composers, conductors, orchestras, managers, secretaries and all the rest. They are all payed by him and his company. He feeds a lot of people with what he does in mathematical analogy to the size of the productions.

I say Bravo Hans. Great guy, great music. Well deserved success.

On an ending note on business, a smaller composer would not have gotten business from a large firm anyway, unless they are very lucky. And a small firm would not have asked for music from Hans Zimmer, because he would charge them too much for such a small production.

So small companies will always find small composers, the larger ones will always aim for the bigger ones. You are also paying for the name of the composer.

It looks different when the credits say "Hans Zimmer" and different when they say "Joe Schmo" or "Theo Krueger"

I think that there's work for everyone. You just gotta chase the opportunity. (Which as an English saying goes "Opportunity is bald in the back of her head, so once she has gone past by you can't grab her anymore).

Work a lot, seek a lot, be friendly, be cool, be open and more opportunities will spring like mushrooms.

Be lazy, unfriendly, boring, uninteresting, egoistic and negative and opportunities don't seem to exist anywhere!

Its called Karma! :- )

Peace,
Theo


----------



## NYC Composer (Jun 22, 2009)

For the record, these last few replies are exactly what I was looking for...a reasoned discussion on the pros and cons of film music being looked at it a more corporate way. It wasn't intended to be a referendum on personalities nor a hostile argument or a support of 'my viewpoint', all of which I tried to make clear from the git.

It strikes me that in this country, cable news is blasting polar opposite views at us 24/7, making us more interested in choosing a side and less interested in reasoned discussion or debate. I even wrote a song about this topic. Personally, I think there's a better way. Having strong views doesn't obviate the need to LISTEN some.

Okay, so back to the theoretical. Let's say RC grows at an algorhythmic rate, and the effect on small composers is practically undeniable. Does RC then enter the 'corporate evil' world, or is it all about capitalism and survival of the fitteand


----------



## TheoKrueger (Jun 22, 2009)

NYC Composer @ Mon Jun 22 said:


> Okay, so back to the theoretical. Let's say RC grows at an algorhythmic rate, and the effect on small composers is practically undeniable. Does RC then enter the 'corporate evil' world, or is it all about capitalism and survival of the fittest?



I'd think that if they chose to score for smaller films as well they could probably also hire "lower budget" composers to do those jobs (?). But then again, a proficient midi composer can make loads of music with a string pad for example in a small amount of time which would render the "lower budget" composer useless in this matter.

One more thing I find possible, is that Hans can easily turn down a movie which he does not see as "worthy" to feature a score by him. Listening to great music in an absolutely garbage film can have an impact on one's name and prestige. Perhaps more negative impact than the credits of the film itself are worth. Just assuming here though...

Who knows, perhaps they are scoring for lower budget films as we speak but without "Hans Zimmer" in the credits.

But then there's also a theoretical corporate model:

Hire a cheap composer to score the cheap film.
Let him have his name in the credits so you don't make the RC name "dirty" by low-quality music.
Hold 95% of the income and 100% of the soundtrack rights.
Give the composer a one-time 5% payment from the original money.

I think that's kinda corporate evil :evil: 

Peace,
Theo


----------



## synthetic (Jun 22, 2009)

It's not just films, Remote Control does a lot of TV too (Prison Break, Desperate Housewives, etc.) We're not talking about Hans here, but Dooley, Djawadi, Jackman, Orvarsson, Zanelli, Balfe, Morris, etc.*

If I was a TV or film producer looking to shore up my chances of success, then going to RC would be a no-brainer. It's one more thing to put on your sell sheet that you can do to raise funds, sell the project or get advertisers. One could argue that going there puts you through the factory approach, but as a producer do I care? Am I looking to push the state of the art in every aspect of my project (music, lighting, performance, etc.) or do I just want to make my money back? I want to make my money back so that I can continue to make more projects. 

I don't think that will change unless the RC sound gets tired/dated. 

* Oh great, now when those guys google themselves I'll be on their sh!t list....


----------



## NYC Composer (Jun 22, 2009)

Do not fear, friend synthetic. The truth shall prevail :wink: 

As I think about this, if this corporate model is the wave of the future, it might be in the interest of talented, smaller reputation composers to try to find a 'big fish'( another big name composer) and convince him/her to fly their own flag, then align with him/her, thereby setting up a competitive capitalistic model, or a number of them. Hmmm. This gets more interesting the more you think about it. I have a friend who's scoring a major cable show....maybe I'll find out if he wants to become a giant of the industry...hmmm....


----------



## Lunatique (Jun 22, 2009)

There are other entities like Remote Control in the game biz, such as Somatone. It's actually a very smart business model, and for some people it makes more sense than struggling on your own. Artists do it too, forming design/illustration studios and taking on clients as a company. I'm actuallyRe: ModerationQ[quote:db80061b3e="Chrislight @ Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:43 am"][quote:db80061b3e="Ashermusic @ Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:45 am"]

Personally I am glad to finally see the moderators here actually DO something that j


----------



## midphase (Jun 22, 2009)

Some composers have done just that...plenty actually. The problem is that a bunch of no-name composers don't really have a whole lot more pull than an individual no-name composer.

In order for that business model to work, you need a relatively big name composer who can open the doors.

In the case of RC, the entry requirements are only met by a handful.


----------



## NYC Composer (Jun 23, 2009)

well, in my previous post, that's what I suggested...find a bigger fish, try to align.


----------



## midphase (Jun 23, 2009)

"Moreover remote control ( and former "mediaventure" ) brought us many 
talented film composers : john powell, harry gregson williams, klaus badelt... henry jackman. "

My understanding is that a few of those names had up-and-coming careers before paying their tithe, and would have probably climbed up the ranks with or without MV.

My other understanding is that for the handful of names that have benefitted from their relationship with MV/RC, there have been hundreds who have not.

I'm not passing judgement....just sayin' that there's always another side to the story.....just sayin'


----------

