# Hello / once in a lifetime recorded drums



## Beddis (Aug 9, 2021)

This is my first post here and I didn't really know where to put this topic so thought to put it here. So This place propably is the last place where if anywhere there is people who actually have some knowledge of recording techniques of old soul / funk drum kits. There are only few very uniques drum recordings in the whole world that I know of that has so uniques sound characters that nobody hasn't ever copied them and seems no matter where I ask about it nobody don't even know how to record so that kind of sound characteristic would be captured again.

If here's anybody that know anything about how these color were achieved please reply.

1. The Amen break


This track drums are the most uniques of all the world. I haven't ever heard drums that have this type of color in the whole set. Anybody know how they did it ?

2. Banbarra - Shack up


The uniques part is the kick drum. Never I have heard this type of kickdrum on any other record I mean how it is so in your face sounds like hitting a rock or something.

I have tested to use studio drummer from native instrument to replicate these, but so far no results. If you know anything related to these tracks and the recordings techniques enlight me and others this is why I joined here to find expert who would know about the field since other places are full of people quessing things, but don't knowing anything.


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## re-peat (Aug 9, 2021)

Seeing the title of this thread among the recent posts, I thought you would be inquiring about *these drums*. But this is something different altogether, isn’t it?

The Amen Break … Two things: firstly, you won’t find these sounds in any of the packages of the big drum library developers. Sure, they have funk kits and soul kits and analog kits and 60’s kits and retro kits and what-have-you-not, but they don’t have anything recorded so badly as the drums of the (original) Amen Break. (Moreover, the Amen drums sound more like jazz drums to me anyway.) Strictly technically speaking, that’s a very poor drum recording. (I doubt if they used more than two mic’s for the entire kit, if even two.) But musically speaking it’s fantastic of course. Couldn’t be bettered. Developers however don’t make that distinction. Understandably, I guess, up to a point. They sell drums which, when demo’ed, have to sound great and technically impressive on their own. Even their retro pseudo-vintage stuff.
I have nearly all the retro kits from Toontrack and several others from smaller developers. There’s not a single one among them I would reach for to try and replicate the Amen sound. Not saying it's completely impossible, but the effort just wouldn't be enjoyable. Not to me anyway. (TT’s Southern Soul 60’s is recorded in a vaguely similar basic way, viz. the barest minimum of microphones, but it sounds completely different than the Amen drums. And depressingly dull, lame & tame compared to it.)

Which brings me to the second and MUCH bigger problem: the Amen Break is part of a live performance; a recording of a live band playing together (in a studio). The energy which that type of music-making injects in the performances of the musicians (and which is reflected in the recorded sound, no matter how primitively) is simply unsampleable. So even if you could find a kit that sounds exactly like the Amen kit in its naked, isolated details, you’d still be only 2% closer to your goal because the remaining 98% just can’t be virtualized. No one can sample musicianship, sweat, joy, attitude, commitment, that intoxicating combination of abandon and discipline which characterizes all great performances, the excitement of hitting a groove collectively, the being inspired by fellow musicians, … all that sort of thing. That’s a domain that will remain forever closed to even the most savvy and dedicated sample library developer.

Been rambling on for two long paragraphs and I haven’t said much yet that is of any practical help to you, have I? Sorry about that. Let’s try this: if someone were to ask me to simulate the Amen drums as best as I can with sample libraries, I think I would start by loading up Premier Soundfactory’s Drumtree. Not a library I’d recommend with much enthusiasm for most cases as its programming is rather disappointing and the buggar is locked too, but at least it’s got the right vibe — Premier does authentic retro better than any other developer I know — and it includes more than one kit which I think wouldn’t need too much work to get at least somewhere in the neighborhood of the Amen sound. Maybe check *the product page* and see if you like what you hear.

If not, check smaller developers rather than the big ones. The drums of, say, AcousticSamples for example seem to me to be much better starting points than anything from Toontrack or Addictive. Again: I'm not implying it is totally impossible with TT or Addictive or that it’ll certainly work with one of the AcousticSamples kits, but if given the choice, I’d rather mess about with one of the latter than with any of the former to get somewhere close to the Amen sound. What you need is a simple, basic jazzy type of kit recorded in an equally simple and basic manner. Nothing sophisticated that includes countless microphones, bleed channels, etc. but a raw natural sounding drumkit with, hopefully, enough energy captured in its sound. And an expressive ride cymbal. (That, I fear, might be the biggest challenge in all of this.)

Oh, ... look *what I just found*!

- - -

As for that bassdrum from “Shack Up”, I think that should be doable with the right tools. (Again, me, I would start with Drumtree, search for a kick that doesn’t sound too different and then maybe process it with UnfilteredAudio’s BassMint (to add some weight), a transient shaper if needed and a good compressor. Or maybe overlay a second, thinner but very kick-y kick. People stack kicks all the time. Done well, it works great and no one can tell. One thing not to loose sight of here is that much of the energy that seems to come from the kick, does in fact come from the bass guitar. You can hear that during one of the short drum breaks that occur throughout the song: without the foundation from the bass, the kick instantly looses quite a bit of power and impact. (By the way, there’s an isolated kick at 1’08”. If you really want this bassdrum and no other, just sample it. I won’t tell anyone.)

_


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## paulcheeba (Aug 9, 2021)

I just posted my authentic library in the Dr John thread you can’t program these drums they need to be played in a great room with a funky drummer:


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## Beddis (Aug 9, 2021)

Thanks for the reply so far I forgot to mention couple of things. The amen break is the most sampled break of all time. I do drum'n bass music my self so that's why I have soft spot for these type of very unique drums sounds. Most drum samples in drum'n bass genre are taken from old 60's and 70's recordings though these days synthesized snares are also used alot. I check the amen break "recreaton" link and it was total bs to be honest didn't sound like it at all. I spend hours searching youtube and internet of any re creation and most of the time people had only played the rhythm and when there was "recreation" involved the drum sound was totally wrong like in the link you pasted re-peat. 

Also the thing with these 2 examples are that they are recorded very poorly so there is not many mics as you hear no stereo drums. I have heard that amen brother would have been recorded with 1 mic, but it's hear say so who knows. Anyways the technique isn't complicated I'm sure of that, but it's something simple yet something that brings totally different results from the other tracks at the time.

What comes to the "feeling" I don't agree with anykind of feeling that isn't tangible that gives to the actual sound since yeah it's not anything tangible. For example. The reason why I can't propably recreate these isn't because I don't have right compressor or something like that, but technically in studio drummer there's only few snares and if the snare is and I quess it is different than used on these recordings then it's impossible to recreate since dimensions that makes the snare can't produce same results audio wise. Maybe the snare used these tracks were smaller than on the studio drummer or something like that, but again something tangible. Any software has more human swing to them than humans can do so putting the drum sounds abit off beat isn't impossibility so it sounds human also velocity has more than enough room so the only problem here is the actual right drums used, but other can come close I bet so it's not that important and second the actual micing that's the key since they didn't used tons of EQ's back then since there weren't those or if were they were super simplistic thus the actualy micing is the last key to the drums color. That's how I see it anyways.

I have tested the studio drummer and I get close to the sound of these drums in this James Brown track.
Reason is because this snare is pitched up and in amen break this can be heard as well, but on the shack up I have no clue.




Here's an example of this old school type of snare by kj sawka. Here when the camera goes close to the snaredrum you see that the sanre it self is not that "tall" so this I think also effect the sound when snare pitched up. KJ Sawka is also inspired by the old sould drum sound so this video is not incident with the early soul drum sound.


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## dhmusic (Aug 9, 2021)

These guys might be worth looking into:









Drumdrops | Multitrack Drums, Drum Loops and Drum Samples


Drumdrops is the world's finest creator of original and royalty-free drum loops, drum samples and drum tracks. Created by the best drummers, in the best studios, with the best producers. Drum samples don't sound better than this.



www.drum-drops.com


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## Zedcars (Aug 10, 2021)

From this article by Ali Jamieson there is some info about how it may have been recorded and how the elements of the groove and the groove itself conspire to make this break so great:


Why Does the Amen Sound so Awesome?​Good question. I spoke to recording techniques and vintage production extraordinaire Hal Ritson of Replay Heaven and The Young Punx about how the Amen was recorded and what about it that attracts us to it like moth to light:



> The main characteristic of the Amen break is the harmonic intensity and sonic character it brings to any track. Recorded on only one or two mics at some distance from the kit and hence capturing a lot of the sonics of the room, and with quite loosely tuned kit leaving toms to ring sympathetically with the snare hits etc, the sound is much looser and more ambient than either more contemporary close mic drum sounds, or most programmed beats. This means its addition to any track immediately adds a space and depth to the sonic soundscape. While this is true of many vintage break beats the Amen break seems to have a uniquely appealing ‘colour’ to it that adds enough ‘darkness’ to the sonics to make any music sound cool and edgy, without becoming too depressingly dark.
> Its almost infinite usability appears to stem from many elements in the break being perfectly balanced for practical use: It has just enough organic groove to add life and vibe to a beat, while being close enough to a straight 16 grid to not clash with straight programmed elements.
> The balance between the transient impact of the hits, and the ambient space of the room seems to strike the right balance between being punchy enough to stand on its own as the sole drum beat in a track, while being soft and spacey enough to sit on top of or within programmed elements without fighting with them in the mix.
> It is a regular enough pattern to lay down a hypnotic looping groove, but also has small variations in the playing (particularly the end of the phrase) that enable it to be used with variations in the pattern, or in new creative ways, particularly when heavily edited and re-triggered. (Some sub genres of DnB seem to consist almost entirely of people finding more and more intricate ways to trigger Amen into complex patterns!)
> And the balance of weight between the most important loud hits, and the more subtle grace notes in between is very well composed, and in particular seems to sound good whether its played slowly as a hiphop break, mid paced as house or breaks, or sped up fast to jungle speeds.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 10, 2021)

Actually, speaking of cool drum sounds, I much prefer A Certain Ratio’s cover version of Shack Up and Donald’s kit’s sound. Especially that snare. I don’t recall if that’s a Martin Hannett engineered track, but it sure sounds like one.


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## paulcheeba (Aug 10, 2021)

I feel that while Amen Brother has the necessary aggressive energy for NWA & Jungle etc. It has none of the finesse, sound or groove of Funky Drummer.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 10, 2021)

paulcheeba said:


> I feel that while Amen Brother has the necessary aggressive energy for NWA & Jungle etc. It has none of the finesse, sound or groove of Funky Drummer.


Agreed. That’s why we remember Clyde Stubblefield. And talk about Amen breaks but not as much about its drummer.


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## FlyingAndi (Aug 10, 2021)

Maybe check out some of the drumkit libs from PastToFutureSamples:








PastToFutureSamples


Follow me for updates on what I am creating.




pasttofuturesamples.gumroad.com


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## Beddis (Aug 10, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> These guys might be worth looking into:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't find wnyway to preview these so it doesn't help :(

Thanks for the info for others so far
Zedcars​Where is that little speech is from you pasted about the characteristics of the break ?
The link btw is totally what I'm looking for about these breaks


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## dhmusic (Aug 10, 2021)

Beddis said:


> I can't find wnyway to preview these so it doesn't help :(


Ah wasn't meant to be I guess. Best of luck


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## Zedcars (Aug 10, 2021)

Beddis said:


> I can't find wnyway to preview these so it doesn't help :(
> 
> Thanks for the info for others so far
> Zedcars​Where is that little speech is from you pasted about the characteristics of the break ?
> The link btw is totally what I'm looking for about these breaks


The link is at the start of my post. Not sure if you found it or not.


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## Beddis (Aug 11, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> The link is at the start of my post. Not sure if you found it or not.


yeah I read the article now seems it was on the first page. Pages 2 and 3 was nothing new to me it was about sampling the break so not relevant information :( There was 2 links to other pages which I went through and 1 youtube video. The youtube video the guy mistakes 3 other breaks as amen break for some reason. Have to read the other two articles about it

here they are





AudioLabs - Reverse Engineering the Amen Break - Score-informed Separation and Restoration applied to Drum Recordings







www.audiolabs-erlangen.de












Discogs Digs | Discogs


Discogs Digs is the place to start your journey of music discovery. Explore recommendations, unique stories, guides, and more.




blog.discogs.com


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## FlyingAndi (Oct 2, 2021)

Just saw this in the commercial announcements 


https://vi-control.net/community/threads/vintagedrumsamples-amen-drums-one-of-the-most-famous-drumsound-in-history-now-for-kontakt-incl-samples.115195/post-4926892


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## tc9000 (Oct 3, 2021)

You might like some of https://www.loopsdelacreme.com/'s drum libraries.


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## Beddis (Oct 3, 2021)

FlyingAndi said:


> Just saw this in the commercial announcements
> 
> 
> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/vintagedrumsamples-amen-drums-one-of-the-most-famous-drumsound-in-history-now-for-kontakt-incl-samples.115195/post-4926892


If these really are recorded from real drum kit and not made from the sample then this is really good job with the amen.


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