# Negative Track Delay Database / Spreadsheet



## David Kudell

Heres a direct link to the database: Link






EDIT: Ok, here's a Google sheet I've created. If you're interested in contributing values for some instruments (and know how to use a Spreadsheet), let me know and I can give you write access.

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Original post: Is there a database anywhere of negative track delay values? Going through my template, figuring it out, it seems like there ought to be a resource for this - a Google doc or something? Or is everyone just figuring it out on their own? I know some of the manufacturers post their delays (Cinematic Studio Series) but others don't. And some libraries have different delays per instrument.

Maybe there's a way we can create a shared doc or something?


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## A.Heppelmann

I would absolutely love to have these for the Berlin Series. Especially for staccatos -- it's like every instrument's attack is slightly different (which i suppose is realistic, but that doesn't make it easy to program).


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## David Kudell

Well I definitely am doing the Berlin series, along with Spitfire Symphonic, so I can share those values when I figure 'em out.

And yeah, my philosophy on this has changed where I'm definitely working in the grid now. My tracks are tighter, it's faster to fix timing issues, and it's much easier to chop up sections on the bar/beat and move them around. Also will be better dealing with picture changes and for matching live recorded sections with samples.


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## axb312

I would love to know the correct values for:
1. Century Strings
2. Hollywood orchestral percussion
3. Timphonia


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## Wedge

David Kudell said:


> Well I definitely am doing the Berlin series, along with Spitfire Symphonic, so I can share those values when I figure 'em out.
> 
> And yeah, my philosophy on this has changed where I'm definitely working in the grid now. My tracks are tighter, it's faster to fix timing issues, and it's much easier to chop up sections on the bar/beat and move them around. Also will be better dealing with picture changes and for matching live recorded sections with samples.


I would be grateful if you would share Spitfire Symphonic when you are done.


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## Henu

I think this is something we definitely should gather and do together! You know, like a sticky topic!


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## crubbish

I mean if we can find someone to manage it we can all message and build it together ?


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## Christoph18

I think there was a thread on this forum about a plugin that automatically adjusts the negative track delay for Cinematic Studio Strings in Logic. It would be so helpful if they developed this kind of plugin for Cubase as well, and made it possible to adjust the parameters for other libraries. (Like Hollywood Orchestra Opus in the future  ) Maybe there are some news regarding this. I must admit that I am not a very active member.

If someone developed this, I would gladly pay for the plugin.


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## Kony

crubbish said:


> I mean if we can find someone to manage it we can all message and build it together ?


If everyone wants to post known track delay settings here in this thread, I'm happy to put them together onto a s/s to share on the forum


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## Akarin

That would be hard to do. Many libraries have a different delay depending on the dynamic of the articulation (like a mp staccato with -40ms and a ff staccato with -20ms.)


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## Kony

There are some obvious acceptable ones though - eg Performance Samples advertise the pre-delay settings on their site. The database could cover these, and also identify specific delays per articulation. Velocity-based differences would be hard to accommodate though.


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## David Kudell

Akarin said:


> That would be hard to do. Many libraries have a different delay depending on the dynamic of the articulation (like a mp staccato with -40ms and a ff staccato with -20ms.)


That’s bonkers, why would they do that? Well, in that case you just have to pick the shorter number and use that.


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## DovesGoWest

I did thread where i tried to calculate all of the timings for the BBCSO core but found that for some reason when i went to render the track to audio the spitfire player didnt seem to like the negative delays.

Audio Imperia Areia has 250ms, i believe this is standard for them and Nucleus has the same sample start delays.


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## Akarin

David Kudell said:


> That’s bonkers, why would they do that?


Most of the time, it's due to the physics of the instrument. Lower dynamic attacks take longer on wind instruments, for example. But yeah, like Audio Imperia, they could cut them at the same value.


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## David Kudell

Kony said:


> If everyone wants to post known track delay settings here in this thread, I'm happy to put them together onto a s/s to share on the forum


I think a shared Google sheet would work. I will create one and put all of my numbers in there and then share that, then whoever wants to add to it can do so.


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## DovesGoWest

I wish all vendors would either go the way that Audi Imperia did and have a fixed 250ms or at least publish in the manual the offsets


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## KEM

Been looking for this info myself for awhile, would be much appreciated to have it all in one place!


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## darcvision

i wonder what ms should i set for 8dio adagietto/adagio. i tried -250ms and i'm not sure if i'm satisfied with the results... also i heard people using auddict master woodwind with -120ms. i guess it would be a lot of experimentation to make it less sluggish.


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## David Kudell

Ok, here's a Google Sheets doc I have created. I'll be adding to it with instruments I have as I go. If you're interested in adding to it, let me know and I can give you write access.

I don't have the following, so if you want to add those values, let me know:
Vienna, East West, Audio Imperia, Musical Sampling, Infinite Series, Heavyocity, Cinesamples.


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## mybadmemory

I think this will work for some developers that are consistent with these things, but some are not. Spitfire for example usually differ, not just between instruments, but also between articulations, and even between velocity layers (by design though).


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## Peter Satera

David Kudell said:


> Ok, here's a Google Sheets doc I have created. I'll be adding to it with instruments I have as I go. If you're interested in adding to it, let me know and I can give you write access.
> 
> I don't have the following, so if you want to add those values, let me know:
> Vienna, East West, Audio Imperia, Musical Sampling, Infinite Series, Heavyocity, Cinesamples.



I do like the idea. As a suggestion, could you pin the latest version to the first post too? This means anyone searching for something similar is likely to find it rather than digging through the posts (although, it is just a thread page now), but the thread could get longer/changes to URL address / doc could go to V2 / etc

Nice and structured!


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## Heinigoldstein

This might be a stupid question, but out of curiosity, for what reason do you guys need to setup a fixed track delay ? When I record a line, I try to play before the beat, to compensate the latency of a library. The first note of a legato patch usually has less delay than the following legato transitions and so on. Or do you only use step input or hard quantize ? Or do I miss an important point maybe ?


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## mybadmemory

And Spitfires Extended Legato patches for example have different delays depending on if you trigger the staccato overlay or not. Less delay for the hard attack notes, and much longer if you only trigger a sustain or legato transition. Usually the first notes in a legato phrase will have a shorter delay than the following etc.


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## mybadmemory

Heinigoldstein said:


> This might be a stupid question, but out of curiosity, for what reason do you guys need to setup a fixed track delay ? When I record a line, I try to play before the beat, to compensate the latency of a library. The first note of a legato patch usually has less delay than the following legato transitions and so on. Or do you only use step input or hard quantize ? Or do I miss an important point maybe ?


If you play everything in live and really learn to play each patch and compensate with your playing, or if you’re fine with dragging notes in the piano roll, none of this really matters as you say.

But if you want to quantize your playing, want stuff on the grid, want to be able to change between patches and have stuff line up or work across multiple patches, or program phrases instead of playing them, it does.

So I guess it depends on how you work. And everyone works differently. Some are more player/performers, whereas other are more programmers. Some have less grid-OCD, and some have more.


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## Heinigoldstein

I see, thanks, that makes sense !


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## Germain B

@David Kudell, is this the Berlin Woodwinds Legacy or Revive ?
Didn't you notice a difference between clarinet 1 and 2 (Revive), especially on the shorts ? Those instruments really confused me when writing staccato and staccatissimo.

Oh, and thanks for this initiative !


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## DovesGoWest

mybadmemory said:


> I think this will work for some developers that are consistent with these things, but some are not. Spitfire for example usually differ, not just between instruments, but also between articulations, and even between velocity layers (by design though).


Thats exactly what i found when going through the BBCSO, to the point that it would mean every single instrument\articulation option would have to have it own track to be able to set the delays


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## mybadmemory

DovesGoWest said:


> Thats exactly what i found when going through the BBCSO, to the point that it would mean every single instrument\articulation option would have to have it own track to be able to set the delays


Plus every velocity / dynamics layer for each articulation of each instrument.


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## David Kudell

Anne-Kathrin Dern does a great job of explaining negative track delays at 5:09 in this video.

Let's not make this thread a debate on the merits of using negative track delays. You don't need to use this workflow, either way of working is valid and I've written plenty of music without using negative track delays. This thread is for those who do want to work this way to save a bit of time and help each other out.


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## David Kudell

Germain B said:


> @David Kudell, is this the Berlin Woodwinds Legacy or Revive ?
> Didn't you notice a difference between clarinet 1 and 2 (Revive), especially on the shorts ? Those instruments really confused me when writing staccato and staccatissimo.
> 
> Oh, and thanks for this initiative !


This is Revive. That's my bad, I figured out Clarinet 1 and assumed 2 and 3 were the same...so looks like we need to check every single instrument.


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## Billy Palmer

David Kudell said:


> Ok, here's a Google Sheets doc I have created. I'll be adding to it with instruments I have as I go. If you're interested in adding to it, let me know and I can give you write access.
> 
> I don't have the following, so if you want to add those values, let me know:
> Vienna, East West, Audio Imperia, Musical Sampling, Infinite Series, Heavyocity, Cinesamples.



Thanks for creating this!


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## David Kudell

mybadmemory said:


> Plus every velocity / dynamics layer for each articulation of each instrument.


This workflow is for single articulation/track.

It's not as hard as it sounds. Take CSS for example. Using standard mode, the medium delay is 250ms. So you play your line in, quantize, and set the velocity of your notes to between 0-64. Takes a second and now all your notes line up. If your first (non-legato) note is early, you can just move it forward a bit, but still better than moving all of the notes manually.


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## mybadmemory

I didn’t mean to argue against the effort at all! I think it’s a great idea! I use negative track delays all the time and will definitely use this myself!

I just long for the day all developers adopt something similar to Audio Imperias approach, of being 100% consistent across everything.


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## Bman70

DovesGoWest said:


> Thats exactly what i found when going through the BBCSO, to the point that it would mean every single instrument\articulation option would have to have it own track to be able to set the delays


Yes it seems at some point, a composer needs to decide whether to invest time trying to get exact track delay numbers, or just play it in using something playable and then swap it out for the desired articulation and drag by hand. I rather enjoy dragging the MIDI by hand (without snapping enabled) because there can be very subtle differences in sound and it's easy to get the sweet spot that way.


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## goalie composer

David Kudell said:


> Anne-Kathrin Dern does a great job of explaining negative track delays at 5:09 in this video.
> 
> Let's not make this thread a debate on the merits of using negative track delays. You don't need to use this workflow, either way of working is valid and I've written plenty of music without using negative track delays. This thread is for those who do want to work this way to save a bit of time and help each other out.



Well said, David. Really appreciate the sentiment.


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## Dewdman42

David Kudell said:


> Anne-Kathrin Dern does a great job of explaining negative track delays at 5:09 in this video.
> 
> Let's not make this thread a debate on the merits of using negative track delays. You don't need to use this workflow, either way of working is valid and I've written plenty of music without using negative track delays. This thread is for those who do want to work this way to save a bit of time and help each other out.



Remember that the only thing that needs to be adjusted is the sample attack time of the start of each note. The rest of the midi performance, including NoteOff and various CC expressions needs to remain on the grid!

Using Negative track delay is a simple solution, however please be aware of the following problems that will still exist and you need to be aware of, with or without this solution:

NoteOff events should NOT be negative delayed. Only the NoteOn. If you use negative track delay, then all your notes will be ending a little early, which of course you can manually fix, but now you're back to fixing every note. that might in some cases also affect legato modes in undesirable ways.


CC, AfterTouch and PitchBend events should also generally not be negative delayed. You want CC11, CC1, etc..to perform expression on the performance exactly to the grid, not made early with negative track delay. The exception is that if you're using a CC as an instrument switch (instead of NoteOn Keyswitch), then they should be negative track delayed, along with NoteOn's. Same goes for PC messages which most likely are functioning as key switches
The jist of it is that you really only want negative track delay to affect NoteOn, PC and possibly some CC switch events. Everything else should go through on the grid without negative track delay.

You can work around some of that by at least putting all your CC and PitchBend expressions on a separate track without negative delay. You could potentially move aftertouch to another track also, after recording it.

Well, in some sense you can program your CC expressions and Pitchbend using your ears after setting the negative track delay...but visually they will appear wrong compared to notes, because of the negative delay effecting everything. It can be made to work with fuss.

NoteOFF, however, is probably going to be mixed on the same track as the matching NoteOn, for good reason, so there is a dilemma there.


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## BasariStudios

So is this Negative Track Delays something under Contract with 
the NSA and so secretive? Why the damn developers don't chime in?
There is some Libraries that have it in the Manual but most don't.
This thing is becoming so ridiculous, it is the most secretive thing
in Orchestral Music work and Libraries.


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## Dewdman42

Well the shared DB of known latencies is a good idea on this thread. it will take some time for some of us to make proper measurements and contribute to the data, but hopefully it can be kept up to date and I agree will be very helpful. it may even take a while before there is universal agreement about the values to use in some cases.


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## audioimperia

David Kudell said:


> Ok, here's a Google Sheets doc I have created. I'll be adding to it with instruments I have as I go. If you're interested in adding to it, let me know and I can give you write access.
> 
> I don't have the following, so if you want to add those values, let me know:
> Vienna, East West, Audio Imperia, Musical Sampling, Infinite Series, Heavyocity, Cinesamples.





All of the patches in our libraries have the exact same pre-padding default value of -125 ms and you can control the amount of pre-padding with our sample start feature (between -250 ms all the way to 0 ms) :D


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## David Kudell

audioimperia said:


> All of the patches in our libraries have the exact same pre-padding default value of -125 and you can control the amount of pre-padding with our sample start feature (between -250 all the way to 0) :D



Wonderful, that makes it very easy. I have yet to have the pleasure of using any of the Audio Imperia libraries but hopefully I can rectify that someday. 😉


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## Virtual Virgin

Akarin said:


> That would be hard to do. Many libraries have a different delay depending on the dynamic of the articulation (like a mp staccato with -40ms and a ff staccato with -20ms.)


This is my first reaction to the graph as well. It is missing the dynamics component.


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## sluggo

A.Heppelmann said:


> I would absolutely love to have these for the Berlin Series. Especially for staccatos -- it's like every instrument's attack is slightly different (which i suppose is realistic, but that doesn't make it easy to program).


The Clarinet staccato patch on BWW revive is atrociously late. There is no reason one should have to make adjustments to just this instrument while the other winds are (more or less) fine. Ok if they are late but at least be consistent within your own library.


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## Virtual Virgin

David Kudell said:


> That’s bonkers, why would they do that? Well, in that case you just have to pick the shorter number and use that.


If this is something you haven't noticed, or could not deduce from the methods by which various dynamics are produced on many instruments, I have some doubts of the veracity of timings displayed on your graphs before even trying them. 

You have a good idea here in charting timing differences, but you are going to need a bit of technical help to refine the accuracy. One thing that will really throw a wrench in here is all of the various settings available from plugin to plugin. Many different forms of attack, release, transition times, round robin effects, legato adjustments, scripting that contains time-dependent variables. There are many things that can change the timing of just one repeated note of one articulation.


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## Zedcars

This is somewhat related to the topic, though not quite the same: BBCSO has “Tightness” control which I believe trims a small portion of the front of the samples for a faster attack. The manual states that the idea is to use this when playing the line in, and then turn it down/off when playing it back.

I usually just use my ears when it comes to this kind of thing. I feel like this issue is something all sample library developers need to take on board and actually have a switch right there in the GUI or in the settings to turn on and off with the exact delay already set.


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## mybadmemory

audioimperia said:


> All of the patches in our libraries have the exact same pre-padding default value of -125 ms and you can control the amount of pre-padding with our sample start feature (between -250 ms all the way to 0 ms) :D



I applaud the work that went into this effort! Such a clever system.


Zedcars said:


> This is somewhat related to the topic, though not quite the same: BBCSO has “Tightness” control which I believe trims a small portion of the front of the samples for a faster attack. The manual states that the idea is to use this when playing the line in, and then turn it down/off when playing it back.
> 
> I usually just use my ears when it comes to this kind of thing. I feel like this issue is something all sample library developers need to take on board and actually have a switch right there in the GUI or in the settings to turn on and off with the exact delay already set.


Even better, I think all predelays and track delays should be automatically turned off at recording, and automatically turned on and sync values at playback.


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## Getsumen

Thanks for the spreadsheet! This will definitely help me save some time in the future. I wonder how difficult it would be to make something similar like the CSS control panel for other plugins. 

Tbh I'm surprised that other companies haven't standardized their delays or at least made the information more accessible.


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## DovesGoWest

Zedcars said:


> This is somewhat related to the topic, though not quite the same: BBCSO has “Tightness” control which I believe trims a small portion of the front of the samples for a faster attack. The manual states that the idea is to use this when playing the line in, and then turn it down/off when playing it back.
> 
> I usually just use my ears when it comes to this kind of thing. I feel like this issue is something all sample library developers need to take on board and actually have a switch right there in the GUI or in the settings to turn on and off with the exact delay already set.


Basically turn tightness all the way left cuts into the sample to point where the note is heard, turn to the right to have all the sample including the pre note sound.

Now spitfire have 2 issues here, firstly tightness as far as I have found is not available in all instruments/articulations. Secondly the sample sizes different and the amount of prenote sound differs 

Audio Imperia have it sorted all samples have 250ms of sound pre note. The sample start control allows you to dial in how many milliseconds you want and then set the corresponding track delay. To get around playing they have a tight button which overrides sample start for recording then turn tight off afterwards


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## olvra

DovesGoWest said:


> Basically turn tightness all the way left cuts into the sample to point where the note is heard, turn to the right to have all the sample including the pre note sound.


it's the opposite


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## mussnig

olvra said:


> it's the opposite


Yes, but I have always been wondering about "the same amount as the Tightness setting". Ideally it would correspond to the MIDI-CC values (or the difference to 127 in that case) ...


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## Ruffian Price

Yeah it doesn't make much sense since if you're messing around with track delays you've probably set tightness to 0, not some sweet spot.


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## blackzeroaudio

Just want to say huge props and thanks for this. Awesome.


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## BassClef




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## David Kudell

BassClef said:


>


Thanks, matches what I have!


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## kingy10kingy

Hi David , this will be very helpful.

Do you have a link to the document so I can see it in a larger format if possible?

It's really small on here.

Many thanks


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## Getsumen

kingy10kingy said:


> Hi David , this will be very helpful.
> 
> Do you have a link to the document so I can see it in a larger format if possible?
> 
> It's really small on here.
> 
> Many thanks


You can just open it up as a full google spreadsheet
This should work? <---


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## Jett Hitt

This is a somewhat new concept to me. I have used it in the past with CSS, but I was using Cubase then. In Logic, I can set it to milliseconds, but it still only allows me to set ticks based on note division, i.e 1/16, 1/8, etc. Not sure why this is. However, even setting this value to the closest option immediately improved the BWW oboe. This is brilliant! 

What I don't completely understand is how this number is not a moving target based on tempo. It seems to me that you would need half the value at 60 bpm as 120 bpm. Did I miss this somewhere?


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## Tim_Wells

Jett Hitt said:


> What I don't completely understand is how this number is not a moving target based on tempo. It seems to me that you would need half the value at 60 bpm as 120 bpm. Did I miss this somewhere?


Yeah... that is one of my concerns as well. Maybe someone can address this. 

In my testing (which is very limited) I have found a great deal of timing inconsistencies; not just between tempos and articulations, but even using identical articulations at consistent tempos.


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## David Kudell

Jett Hitt said:


> This is a somewhat new concept to me. I have used it in the past with CSS, but I was using Cubase then. In Logic, I can set it to milliseconds, but it still only allows me to set ticks based on note division, i.e 1/16, 1/8, etc. Not sure why this is. However, even setting this value to the closest option immediately improved the BWW oboe. This is brilliant!
> 
> What I don't completely understand is how this number is not a moving target based on tempo. It seems to me that you would need half the value at 60 bpm as 120 bpm. Did I miss this somewhere?


Tempo doesn’t matter because you’re just compensating for the delay between the start of the sample audio file and the beginning of the note. 

And the inconsistencies are due to the fact that human beings are editing all of these audio files to make sample libraries and there’s some human judgement involved as to where the file should be edited. Some companies do a better job of this than others. 

This is also the reason why the “don’t quantize or it will sound too artificial” argument isn’t really accurate in most cases, since there’s already imperfections baked into not just the speed in which the musician played each note, but where the sample start was edited. (Exception to this is of course samples with really tight start times such as drums.)


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## David Kudell

Jett Hitt said:


> In Logic, I can set it to milliseconds, but it still only allows me to set ticks based on note division, i.e 1/16, 1/8, etc. Not sure why this is.


Yeah I remember there being two fields as well...one is per region and one is the entire track, it’s easy to get those 2 mixed up. And you might also have to change a setting or something in Logic to go from note values to ms.


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## Ryan Fultz

Jett Hitt said:


> This is a somewhat new concept to me. I have used it in the past with CSS, but I was using Cubase then. In Logic, I can set it to milliseconds, but it still only allows me to set ticks based on note division, i.e 1/16, 1/8, etc. Not sure why this is. However, even setting this value to the closest option immediately improved the BWW oboe. This is brilliant!
> 
> What I don't completely understand is how this number is not a moving target based on tempo. It seems to me that you would need half the value at 60 bpm as 120 bpm. Did I miss this somewhere?





David Kudell said:


> Yeah I remember there being two fields as well...one is per region and one is the entire track, it’s easy to get those 2 mixed up. And you might also have to change a setting or something in Logic to go from note values to ms.




Under track header (not region header, as correctly stated above) you want to go to the line that says "Delay" and enter your numeric delay time there. 

Just was doing that this morning getting Jeager Brass to line up with my NSS.

So using Jeager as an example, enter -125 and it will align with the default settings in the player, if you adjust the default settings you will have to adjust the track delay by a parallel amount.


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## kingy10kingy

Getsumen said:


> You can just open it up as a full google spreadsheet
> This should work? <---


Thank you


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## Jett Hitt

David Kudell said:


> Yeah I remember there being two fields as well...one is per region and one is the entire track, it’s easy to get those 2 mixed up. And you might also have to change a setting or something in Logic to go from note values to ms.





Ryan Fultz said:


> Under track header (not region header, as correctly stated above) you want to go to the line that says "Delay" and enter your numeric delay time there.
> 
> Just was doing that this morning getting Jeager Brass to line up with my NSS.
> 
> So using Jeager as an example, enter -125 and it will align with the default settings in the player, if you adjust the default settings you will have to adjust the track delay by a parallel amount.


Hey thank you both, It isn't at all obvious that there is a place to click beside Delay in the Track header. It simply looks like there is a drop-down menu.


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## gzapper

BassClef said:


>


Wow, is there really a 200-300ms delay on notes sounding on some instruments/articulations?
That seems like an awfully long delay. I understand that quite a few instruments take a long time to speak at low dynamics, but I can't play properly with more than a 10ms lag on audio input, let alone 60 or 200. Is that including buffer lag as well?


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## Heinigoldstein

Well, I never took care about neg. track delay until now. I try to play before the beat and I edit (a lot !!). But after trying it, I might get some benefit from it and save time. BUT, concerning Legato articulations I‘m still confused. Most of libs I use have different delays for the 1st note and the following legato transitions. Most of the time, the ladder is slower. So with a fix track delay, the 1st note is either too fast or the transitions are too slow. How do you handle this ? You still need a lot of editing these lines, or ?

Besides the fact, that different dynamic layers have different delays, where it becomes insane in a way.


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## David Kudell

Heinigoldstein said:


> Well, I never took care about neg. track delay until now. I try to play before the beat and I edit (a lot !!). But after trying it, I might get some benefit from it and save time. BUT, concerning Legato articulations I‘m still confused. Most of libs I use have different delays for the 1st note and the following legato transitions. Most of the time, the ladder is slower. So with a fix track delay, the 1st note is either too fast or the transitions are too slow. How do you handle this ? You still need a lot of editing these lines, or ?
> 
> Besides the fact, that different dynamic layers have different delays, where it becomes insane in a way.


Yes the first note always plays sooner since there's no legato transition being played. So you need to move it a bit later in time. I just quantize the whole thing then move the first note. If you use a library a lot (your main string library for example) you'll quickly learn the amount to move it.

As for different dynamic layers having different delays, after you play your line, make all the notes the same velocity in the piano roll. This doesn't affect the loudness of the notes (that's done by your mod wheel). Then they will all play the same transition. For example, for CSS, make everything 127 and the delay will be -100ms across the board.


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## Tim_Wells

For part where timing is critical (for example, drums, bass, pizzicatos) I often bounce down to audio and align manually to the grid. I have even bounced one note at a time. 

For parts where the timing is not as crucial, I'll leave them in midi and use delay compensation.


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## Heinigoldstein

David Kudell said:


> Yes the first note always plays sooner since there's no legato transition being played. So you need to move it a bit later in time. I just quantize the whole thing then move the first note. If you use a library a lot (your main string library for example) you'll quickly learn the amount to move it.
> 
> As for different dynamic layers having different delays, after you play your line, make all the notes the same velocity in the piano roll. This doesn't affect the loudness of the notes (that's done by your mod wheel). Then they will all play the same transition. For example, for CSS, make everything 127 and the delay will be -100ms across the board.


I´m aware of this, but I´m not convinced TBH. You have a little less editing (maybe), but you loose the advantage of using different Legato transitions which is quite nice sometimes. AND, it´s only an advantage, if you use track per articulation which I do not like very much either. I´ll try to set the offset for the shorts and still edit my longs (or even better, play it right


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## David Kudell

Hey everyone, if it doesn't work for you, that's cool. Not here to convince anyone. I'll keep updating this along with a group of volunteers (including a professor at Berklee). But I think I've said all that needs to be said here. Cheers everyone.


----------



## Heinigoldstein

David Kudell said:


> Hey everyone, if it doesn't work for you, that's cool. Not here to convince anyone. I'll keep updating this along with a group of volunteers (including a professor at Berklee). But I think I've said all that needs to be said here. Cheers everyone.


Hey David, I didn‘t want to offend anyone, sorry if I came across like this. I just try to figure out, what might be a good way for me, because in general it seems to be pretty interessting.


----------



## Tim_Wells

David Kudell said:


> Hey everyone, if it doesn't work for you, that's cool. Not here to convince anyone. I'll keep updating this along with a group of volunteers (including a professor at Berklee). But I think I've said all that needs to be said here. Cheers everyone.


I (and I'm sure many others) appreciate the effort. What you're doing is helpful. Thank you for putting it together! Sincerely.

I think my negativity or skepticism comes from experiencing a variety of timing issues with sample libraries. You are trying make things better. So again, thank you!


----------



## Jett Hitt

Yes, @David Kudell thank you. This was extremely helpful!


----------



## madfloyd

It would be wonderful to add Cinematic Studio Strings/Brass to this list!


----------



## yiph2

It's there though


----------



## madfloyd

yiph2 said:


> It's there though


I only see the Woodwinds.


----------



## Germain B

madfloyd said:


> I only see the Woodwinds.


There is different tabs down below.


----------



## madfloyd

Germain B said:


> There is different tabs down below.


Oh! Doh! My bad, so sorry, thanks for enlightening me!


----------



## mybadmemory

David Kudell said:


> Yes the first note always plays sooner since there's no legato transition being played. So you need to move it a bit later in time. I just quantize the whole thing then move the first note. If you use a library a lot (your main string library for example) you'll quickly learn the amount to move it.
> 
> As for different dynamic layers having different delays, after you play your line, make all the notes the same velocity in the piano roll. This doesn't affect the loudness of the notes (that's done by your mod wheel). Then they will all play the same transition. For example, for CSS, make everything 127 and the delay will be -100ms across the board.


How do you work with short notes when the offset is different for different velocity layers? Like in BBCSO for example, higher velocities have a longer delay than lower, for the shorts. Here you can’t really set a fixed velocity since you want the dynamic variation! Just curious! ☺️


----------



## ennbr

Is there a way to download the spreadsheet I must be missing something


----------



## Jett Hitt

ennbr said:


> Is there a way to download the spreadsheet I must be missing something


I am not sure if there is, but it seems to me that you wouldn't want to do that because your copy would cease to be updated. Just bookmark it on your browser.


----------



## Markrs

ennbr said:


> Is there a way to download the spreadsheet I must be missing something


You can also add a shortcut to your google drive (in google docs menu... File... Add shortcut to Drive)


----------



## Markrs

I am now working with BBCSO Pro building a template and over time I should be able to add to this. Is there a method used for recording the start of a sample? I have expression and dynamics full. If needed I can then increase the peak view gain (not real gain just the visualization of it) and zoom in. I then tend to take the first noise as the start (it is usually quickly followed by other noises rather than a errant blip in the sound)

I had planned to do articulation per track with Reaper but Reaper has CPU load issues over 340+ FXs even though they are fully disabled. So I have found that I can do either item negative time delay (negative is all FX i.e. BBCSO Pro, need to be on that item for it to work) or use the midi nudge feature (just have to split the midi at the point of needing to use either method) the ms required. Advantage of the nudge is all the FX can be track rather than item based.


----------



## Jotto

Newbie question. Negative delay works only when using on track pr articulation?


----------



## Markrs

Jotto said:


> Newbie question. Negative delay works only when using on track pr articulation?


Normally it is a track delay that effect the whole track, so if the articulation have different negative delay they will all be affected by the one on the track. 

However with Reaper (and possible other DAWs) you can have an delay FX on a item on a track that corresponds to the articulation. Or you can nudge the midi by a certain amount of milliseconds (which for me is the easiest option)


----------



## mussnig

Hey,

I'm thinking about "measuring" the delays for Spitfire’s Studio Orchestra in the near future and obviously would want to contribute to this spreadsheet here. Just to be clear (especially for the shorts): the delay time supposed to be the time until the transient, right?


----------



## DovesGoWest

mussnig said:


> Hey,
> 
> I'm thinking about "measuring" the delays for Spitfire’s Studio Orchestra in the near future and obviously would want to contribute to this spreadsheet here. Just to be clear (especially for the shorts): the delay time supposed to be the time until the transient, right?


Yes its the negative delay you put on the track so that the transient hits on the beat


----------



## mussnig

Sorry for asking again, but where exactly is the transient in the following waveform of a Spiccato sample? I have a hard time identifying it here ...


----------



## Dewdman42

The thing to understand is that these latencies are usually not caused by "late" sample attacks. They are caused by "slow" sample attacks. The wave form starts a lot earlier then what the ear perceives as the attack point. in real life, string players start to strike their finger or bow to the string ahead of the beat so that it will end up sounding with meat of the sound like its happening on the beat. There is sound starting to be produced as what is actually a rather slow attack transient, way ahead of the beat.

Unfortunately if sample developers want to include the real true juicy goodness of authentic string attacks, they need to include all that audio content that normally happens ahead of the beat.

The problem with midi is that you can't start playing that pre-beat juicy goodness until you hit the midi note...so the midi note needs start ahead of the beat, just like real string players do intuitively.

I don't think you can look at that sample and determine how early it needs to be. You have to use your ears.


----------



## mussnig

Dewdman42 said:


> The thing to understand is that these latencies are usually not causes by "late" sample attacks. They are caused by "slow" sample attacks. The wave form starts a lot earlier then what the year perceives as the attack point. in real life, string players start to strike their finger or bow to the string ahead of the beat so that it will end up sounding with meat of the sound like its happening on the beat. There is sound starting to be produced as what is actually a rather slow attack transient, way ahead of the beat.
> 
> Unfortunately if sample developers want to include the real true juicy goodness of authentic string attacks, they need to include all that audio content that normally happens ahead of the beat.
> 
> The problem with midi is that you can't start playing that pre-beat juicy goodness until you hit the midi note...so the midi note needs start ahead of the beat, just like real string players do intuitively.
> 
> I don't think you can look at that sample and determine how early it needs to be. You have to use your ears.


It's clear to me what is happening with samples, pre-delay and built-up etc. Still, with some samples it's easy to see from their waveform where the "beat" is supposed to be. So you can easily determine from this the necessary delay.
And to be honest, my ears are not good enough to determine quite small delays. You might now say, that in that case, there is no need (at least for me) to be more precise with determining the pre-delay. However, if you then combine to tracks and both deviate from the actual "beat" in different differections, you effectively double that delay.


----------



## Dewdman42

I think just adjust negative delay until it sounds on the beat. Unfortunately its not an exact science and you won't be able to nail that really by looking at the visual waveform.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

PSA for anyone who is trying to do this in Logic...

Track-level delay settings are buggy and not functioning for multi-timbral Software Instruments and External MIDI Tracks (as of 10.5.1). You can enter a value (in ms), but Logic doesn't recognize it.

This has been discussed ad nauseum in the following thread for anyone who wants more detail:






Logic Scripter—multiport track delay compensation?


As the native track delay compensation feature is incredibly limited on MIDI tracks in Logic (i.e., -99 to +99 ticks, which change in length-of-time depending on tempo), I am trying to brainstorm solutions that work with MIDI tracks connected to an AU3 VEP track. (obviously the native feature...




vi-control.net


----------



## David Kudell

Dewdman42 said:


> I think just adjust negative delay until it sounds on the beat. Unfortunately its not an exact science and you won't be able to nail that really by looking at the visual waveform.


Yep - I do it by ear, and with slow attack instruments I will try playing back at fast and slow tempos to see how the instrument is doing playing the line on the beat.


----------



## thevisi0nary

You are a wonderful person


----------



## JJDaly

David Kudell said:


> Ok, here's a Google Sheets doc I have created. I'll be adding to it with instruments I have as I go. If you're interested in adding to it, let me know and I can give you write access.
> 
> I don't have the following, so if you want to add those values, let me know:
> Vienna, East West, Audio Imperia, Musical Sampling, Infinite Series, Heavyocity, Cinesamples.



This document is fantastic, thanks for doing this. It beats my 7 billion post-its stuck to the bottom of all my screens 🤣


----------



## Ruffian Price

mussnig said:


> Sorry for asking again, but where exactly is the transient in the following waveform of a Spiccato sample? I have a hard time identifying it here ...


Turning on the spectrogram if you can helps a lot, with strings I've found that the perceived start usually lines up with the moment the fundamental tone appears in the spectrum. Lining up looped fragments with the click by ear still works best though.


----------



## mussnig

Ruffian Price said:


> Turning on the spectrogram if you can helps a lot, with strings I've found that the perceived start usually lines up with the moment the fundamental tone appears in the spectrum. Lining up looped fragments with the click by ear still works best though.


Thank you for the hint! Unfortunately Ableton Live doesn't have a built-in spectrogram (at least I don't know of it) and using some external program seems to be too cumbersome.
In the end, Studio Orchestra Pro just turned out to be a too ambitious undertaking for me - based on all the articulations and also of me being very unsure about the point where the transient occurs. So now I am just doing it by ear for every project. Maybe at some point it might turn out that I am always using the same values for the standard articulations - in that case, I will of course write them down and share them.


----------



## muziksculp

It would be a good idea if the database was made into a sticky on this forum. 

Thanks.


----------



## Daniel James

David Kudell said:


> EDIT: Ok, here's a Google sheet I've created. If you're interested in contributing values for some instruments (and know how to use a Spreadsheet), let me know and I can give you write access.
> 
> ----
> Original post: Is there a database anywhere of negative track delay values? Going through my template, figuring it out, it seems like there ought to be a resource for this - a Google doc or something? Or is everyone just figuring it out on their own? I know some of the manufacturers post their delays (Cinematic Studio Series) but others don't. And some libraries have different delays per instrument.
> 
> Maybe there's a way we can create a shared doc or something?



Cheers for this David!

-DJ


----------



## lukeanthony81

Thanks for creating that David! I just started using Spitfire BBCSO in Logic Pro for my compositions and it has been a nightmare trying to figure out why everything is so behind the beat until I found this! Quick question for all of you. Where it says "Sustains" in the spreadsheet, is that referring to what Spitfire calls "Longs?"


----------



## Traz

lukeanthony81 said:


> Thanks for creating that David! I just started using Spitfire BBCSO in Logic Pro for my compositions and it has been a nightmare trying to figure out why everything is so behind the beat until I found this! Quick question for all of you. Where it says "Sustains" in the spreadsheet, is that referring to what Spitfire calls "Longs?"


Yes, that is referring to the "longs".


----------



## Rob Elliott

This looks fantastic. Thanks for doing this. How to download?


----------



## Rob Elliott

Just figured it out. Many thanks Dave. Super useful!!!!!!!


----------



## JoeWatkin

Thanks David this is super useful!


----------



## Geoff Grace

Yes, thanks *David*, and everyone else who contributed!

Best,

Geoff


----------



## Illico

Thanks David. Not sure it was mentioned, but I set *-30ms* for _*Embertone Walker 1955 Concert D - Lite*_ (Normal)


----------



## Flyo

Thank you for this! There are numbers for Strings? BBC legato strings for example are very hard to play without lag.


----------



## Rogerio Sobreira

Hello, David! How are you? Thanks for the google sheet. It's working really well with some of the libraries that I have. I'm currently working on a new template in Cubase and I would love to contribute to this amazing work. I own Spitfire Studio Woodwinds, Spitfire Studio Brass, Spitfire Studio Strings, Spitfire Chamber Strings, Spitfire Solo Strings and I already have a lot of negative track delay values figured out. ​
Thanks again!


----------



## avxsound

Hi,

Thanks to Maxime Luft, i.e. the library developer, there are the negative offset values for OT Organic Samples Tableau Solo Strings :

Violin, legato: -180 ms
Violin, portamento: -250 ms
Violin, ornament legato: -160 ms

Viola, legato: -180 ms
Viola, portamento: -250 ms
Viola, ornament legato: -170 ms

Cello, legato: -180 ms
Cello, portamento: -250 ms
Cello, ornament legato: -170 ms

Cheers !


----------



## shapednoise

axb312 said:


> I would love to know the correct values for:
> 1. Century Strings
> 2. Hollywood orchestral percussion
> 3. Timphonia


Do ya mean The https://www.modwheel.co.nz/timphonia ?


----------



## bachader

DovesGoWest said:


> I did thread where i tried to calculate all of the timings for the BBCSO core but found that for some reason when i went to render the track to audio the spitfire player didnt seem to like the negative delays.
> 
> Audio Imperia Areia has 250ms, i believe this is standard for them and Nucleus has the same sample start delays.


That was really a good job. Thanks for that. However, David's delays for BBSO are about a factor and a half longer. Is that due to core vs pro versions or your different perceptions of the transients? Best.


----------



## axb312

shapednoise said:


> Do ya mean The https://www.modwheel.co.nz/timphonia ?


Yes.


----------



## David Kudell

bachader said:


> That was really a good job. Thanks for that. However, David's delays for BBSO are about a factor and a half longer. Is that due to core vs pro versions or your different perceptions of the transients? Best.


Some of the delay values in the database are added by other contributors. But even if I'm the one that entered them, look at this as a helpful starting point, but not necessarily the final word.


----------



## David Kudell

Rogerio Sobreira said:


> Hello, David! How are you? Thanks for the google sheet. It's working really well with some of the libraries that I have. I'm currently working on a new template in Cubase and I would love to contribute to this amazing work. I own Spitfire Studio Woodwinds, Spitfire Studio Brass, Spitfire Studio Strings, Spitfire Chamber Strings, Spitfire Solo Strings and I already have a lot of negative track delay values figured out. ​
> Thanks again!


Yes it'd be awesome if you want to contribute. Send me a DM here on the forum.


----------



## Steve Sacks

David Kudell said:


> EDIT: Ok, here's a Google sheet I've created. If you're interested in contributing values for some instruments (and know how to use a Spreadsheet), let me know and I can give you write access.
> 
> ----
> Original post: Is there a database anywhere of negative track delay values? Going through my template, figuring it out, it seems like there ought to be a resource for this - a Google doc or something? Or is everyone just figuring it out on their own? I know some of the manufacturers post their delays (Cinematic Studio Series) but others don't. And some libraries have different delays per instrument.
> 
> Maybe there's a way we can create a shared doc or something?






David Kudell said:


> EDIT: Ok, here's a Google sheet I've created. If you're interested in contributing values for some instruments (and know how to use a Spreadsheet), let me know and I can give you write access.
> 
> ----
> Original post: Is there a database anywhere of negative track delay values? Going through my template, figuring it out, it seems like there ought to be a resource for this - a Google doc or something? Or is everyone just figuring it out on their own? I know some of the manufacturers post their delays (Cinematic Studio Series) but others don't. And some libraries have different delays per instrument.
> 
> Maybe there's a way we can create a shared doc or something?



This is great! I have the VST woodwinds, but I'm kind of a novice and not really confident about calculating the right values. If somebody else could do this, it would be really appreciated!


----------



## DovesGoWest

bachader said:


> That was really a good job. Thanks for that. However, David's delays for BBSO are about a factor and a half longer. Is that due to core vs pro versions or your different perceptions of the transients? Best.


An issue that has been found with BBCSO is that you cant actually group into longs\shorts\fx etc as every articulations seems to have a variance and also the RR are different as well so its always an average guess and as @David Kudell says its good starting point after that use your ears till what sounds the best


----------



## David Kudell

DovesGoWest said:


> An issue that has been found with BBCSO is that you cant actually group into longs\shorts\fx etc as every articulations seems to have a variance and also the RR are different as well so its always an average guess and as @David Kudell says its good starting point after that use your ears till what sounds the best


I set up my template with one articulation via track, so for example, just spiccatos on one track, legato on another. Each track has its own delay value.


----------



## tommyrack

Hi all. This is great David and thank you for doing this!

For everyone using Cubendo who is working with Expression Maps or another workflow that doesn't quite allow the negative track delay, if you use the following Logical Editor preset you can get a similar workaround that is slightly quicker than a manual edit. 

The below is using an example figure of 150ms so that it shifts the note start 150ms, but then preserves the same note end point as when recorded. Should address some of the earlier concerns about note ends. Just select all of the appropriate notes and click apply. 

You could set it up with a 10ms and just use repeated functions to get where you want, or you could set up a bunch of them for the appropriate articulations you have loaded. If you're on a Lemur, TouchOSC type thing then you could create a page with your libraries and their articulations so that you can run through at a quicker pace. 

I've literally just done this and have not done any extensive tests - just a thought for those of you who were interested in a workaround similar to this process.

If anyone has any thoughts on how to use LE to auto-select the appropriate Articulations within the E-Maps to automate this further, I'd love to hear them.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## muziksculp

Nice to see this very useful thread is now a Sticky.

Thanks.


----------



## Emmanuel Jacob

David... That's, amazing. Thanks for sharing. Personally, I work with expression maps in Cubase. A brief explanation of ex. map... _"programming all articulations to work through 1 and only midi channel. Something like a custom-made Key Switching, but it's visible in piano roll"._

So, in that case I just set the offset of Stacc/Spicc and I'm arranging the extra -ms for "legato" manually like a noob. 

With your information, finally I can start creating presets for logical editor which I have never worked with.



tommyrack said:


> Hi all. This is great David and thank you for doing this!
> 
> For everyone using Cubendo who is working with Expression Maps or another workflow that doesn't quite allow the negative track delay, if you use the following Logical Editor preset you can get a similar workaround that is slightly quicker than a manual edit.
> 
> The below is using an example figure of 150ms so that it shifts the note start 150ms, but then preserves the same note end point as when recorded. Should address some of the earlier concerns about note ends. Just select all of the appropriate notes and click apply.
> 
> You could set it up with a 10ms and just use repeated functions to get where you want, or you could set up a bunch of them for the appropriate articulations you have loaded. If you're on a Lemur, TouchOSC type thing then you could create a page with your libraries and their articulations so that you can run through at a quicker pace.
> 
> I've literally just done this and have not done any extensive tests - just a thought for those of you who were interested in a workaround similar to this process.
> 
> If anyone has any thoughts on how to use LE to auto-select the appropriate Articulations within the E-Maps to automate this further, I'd love to hear them.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom



Me too!!!


----------



## David Kudell

Emmanuel Jacob said:


> David... That's, amazing. Thanks for sharing. Personally, I work with expression maps in Cubase. A brief explanation of ex. map... _"programming all articulations to work through 1 and only midi channel. Something like a custom-made Key Switching, but it's visible in piano roll"._
> 
> So, in that case I just set the offset of Stacc/Spicc and I'm arranging the extra -ms for "legato" manually like a noob.
> 
> With your information, finally I can start creating presets for logical editor which I have never worked with.
> 
> 
> 
> Me too!!!


Glad you found it helpful. By the way, your demos for both Tallinn and Tom Holkenborg Percussion were fantastic.


----------



## PaulieDC

David Kudell said:


> EDIT: Ok, here's a Google sheet I've created. If you're interested in contributing values for some instruments (and know how to use a Spreadsheet), let me know and I can give you write access.
> 
> ----
> Original post: Is there a database anywhere of negative track delay values? Going through my template, figuring it out, it seems like there ought to be a resource for this - a Google doc or something? Or is everyone just figuring it out on their own? I know some of the manufacturers post their delays (Cinematic Studio Series) but others don't. And some libraries have different delays per instrument.
> 
> Maybe there's a way we can create a shared doc or something?



Ah, I did a Select All and pasted it right into Excel, nice! Each tab. For my own personal use, not to edit/add. If it's OK with you, I'll going to find my libraries within it and work with the values (and a YT vid I found) to learn how this all works. We've all said it before but thanks for this!


----------



## Emmanuel Jacob

David Kudell said:


> Glad you found it helpful. By the way, your demos for both Tallinn and Tom Holkenborg Percussion were fantastic.


Ahh... Thank you David. Super glad that you liked them. :D

(sorry for the spam guys)...


----------



## David Kudell

Updated the database with the new Cinematic Studios 1.3 update's Low Latency legato option:

LOW LATENCY (new for vers 1.3):
Medium: -90ms (0-64 velocity)
Fast: -70ms (65-127 velocity)

EXPRESSIVE MODE: 
Slow: -220 (0-64 velocity) 
Med -130 (65-100 velocity) 
Fast -90 (101-127 velocity)


----------



## Adam Hooper

David Kudell said:


> EDIT: Ok, here's a Google sheet I've created. If you're interested in contributing values for some instruments (and know how to use a Spreadsheet), let me know and I can give you write access.
> 
> ----
> Original post: Is there a database anywhere of negative track delay values? Going through my template, figuring it out, it seems like there ought to be a resource for this - a Google doc or something? Or is everyone just figuring it out on their own? I know some of the manufacturers post their delays (Cinematic Studio Series) but others don't. And some libraries have different delays per instrument.
> 
> Maybe there's a way we can create a shared doc or something?



I would like to add Kinetic Strings by Kirk Hunter seem to be at -65ms


----------



## Zedcars

Hi,

First of all, I'd like to say thank you to David and to the community for creating and contributing to this database. Great job. 

I'd like some clarification on something please: When I look up Spitfire Audio's strings they all have both "Performance Legato" and "Legato Performance" columns which have different values in each one. I'm just a bit confused what the difference is between the two, seeing as they both have the same words in their column headings, albeit switched around.


----------



## yiph2

Zedcars said:


> Hi,
> 
> First of all, I'd like to say thank you to David and to the community for creating and contributing to this database. Great job.
> 
> I'd like some clarification on something please: When I look up Spitfire Audio's strings they all have both "Performance Legato" and "Legato Performance" columns which have different values in each one. I'm just a bit confused what the difference is between the two, seeing as they both have the same words in their column headings, albeit switched around.


Legato Performance = old/legacy legato - has 3 vib options
Performance Legato = new legato, can do shorts (more playable), has only 2 vib options, missing middle vib


----------



## Zedcars

yiph2 said:


> Legato Performance = old/legacy legato - has 3 vib options
> Performance Legato = new legato, can do shorts (more playable), has only 2 vib options, missing middle vib


Ah OK, thank you.


----------



## Casiquire

We can update MSS to -400 for all articulations


----------



## Chris Richter

@David Kudell Thank you and everybody else who contributed. This is great.

In the Infinite Brass Guide Aaron (the dev) states that the instruments have a 30ms delay.
Source: https://www.aaronventure.com/infinite-brass/guide#approach

From the top of my head I am pretty sure Infinite Woodwinds is simliar but I would need to check the manual to be sure (I am not in the studio right now).

Edit: It's cool if my brain doesn't fail me once evry while :D
Infinite Woodwind have the same delay:


----------



## blaggins

This is brilliant, thanks for putting it together @David Kudell


----------



## Alexartist

Now I'm trying to play strings in the Berlin Orchestra - a very big delay. I don't know how long it is, but it's impossible to play live (especially since there is no fast legato). Alas!
@David Kudell - respect!


----------



## David Kudell

Alexartist said:


> Now I'm trying to play strings in the Berlin Orchestra - a very big delay. I don't know how long it is, but it's impossible to play live (especially since there is no fast legato). Alas!
> @David Kudell - respect!


The delays should be the same as the ones from
the Berlin Strings. Having one speed of legato actually makes things a easier since there will only be one delay value so you can use that in your track. The whole point is to play it in close enough and then when you quantize you’ll be right on thanks to the negative delay.


----------



## almo

Hi.. first of all, thanks for this great sheet.. I have two questions: 1st.: is there a direct link, I can save in my browser, for an instant access? 2nd: is the an plan to get any data east West Hollywood opus? Thanks


----------



## Germain B

almo said:


> Hi.. first of all, thanks for this great sheet.. I have two questions: 1st.: is there a direct link, I can save in my browser, for an instant access? 2nd: is the an plan to get any data east West Hollywood opus? Thanks


Hello,
Here's a link you can save.


----------



## David Kudell

almo said:


> Hi.. first of all, thanks for this great sheet.. I have two questions: 1st.: is there a direct link, I can save in my browser, for an instant access? 2nd: is the an plan to get any data east West Hollywood opus? Thanks


I don’t use that one but if someone wants to add the numbers for East West send me a DM.


----------



## MusiquedeReve

Does anyone use negative delay on Damage 2? Everything seems to line up properly on the grid (at least to my ears) but, looking for a second opinion


----------



## guerrax

Thank you @David Kudell and all the contributors for this important thread. Will come back to contribute based on my ears for pre delay BBCSO articulations. 

I see Woodwins are mainly affected. Do you knows if the strings ands Brass are also concerned ?

Again thank you so much for this work.


----------



## David Kudell

guerrax said:


> Thank you @David Kudell and all the contributors for this important thread. Will come back to contribute based on my ears for pre delay BBCSO articulations.
> 
> I see Woodwins are mainly affected. Do you knows if the strings ands Brass are also concerned ?
> 
> Again thank you so much for this work.


Thanks! I’m not sure what you mean though by what’s affected.


----------



## Kony

guerrax said:


> I see Woodwins are mainly affected. Do you knows if the strings ands Brass are also concerned ?


Most samples will need pre-delay adjustments. How much depends on the instrument group, and also the developer's programming.


----------



## David Kudell

MorphineNoir said:


> Does anyone use negative delay on Damage 2? Everything seems to line up properly on the grid (at least to my ears) but, looking for a second opinion


I have Damage set to -10ms.


----------



## MusiquedeReve

I recall reading a post on VIC once upon a time wherein someone stated that VSL libraries do not require negative delay -- am I misremembering or is that correct?


----------



## guerrax

David Kudell said:


> Thanks! I’m not sure what you mean though by what’s affected.


I meant concerned by a pre delay, sorry 

Thank for you answer !


----------



## David Kudell

MorphineNoir said:


> I recall reading a post on VIC once upon a time wherein someone stated that VSL libraries do not require negative delay -- am I misremembering or is that correct?


Any library is going to have delay, other than a few percussion or piano libraries. Especially legato articulations.


----------



## Dewdman42

However, any software maker can potentially compress or chop off the leading attack of samples in order to eliminate this delay. Kirk Hunter explained to me once that he specifically did not do that because he wanted the full natural attack transient of a bow or finger hitting the string to be replicated....leaving it up to us to make sure we strike the start of that event ahead of the grid appropriately. And many other libraries are the same way.

I do not know why this idea is being perpetuated that VSL libraries are somehow _above_ such things. VSL has not made any official statement or published any numbers as far as I am aware and I am extremely doubtful that they would have compressed or chopped off the leading attack of their samples in order to avoid it either. That is what is usually done for something like say a PCM based keyboard with string sounds and no tolerance whatsoever for latency due to this issue.

I have personally not had a chance yet to really try to go through my VSL libraries and test these things or share some specific numbers in this regard.

I do think some libraries take this issue to a much bigger extreme, CSS for example has ridiculous amounts of latency in some cases that is not attributable to the natural instrument attack transient. its quite possible that VSL has minimized it to such an extent that people just aren't noticing it. VSL Synchron and ViPro players also introduce actual humanization to pretty much every patch, which adds further amounts of delay in an inconsistent matter...which is what we want...but also makes it hard to pinpoint an exact amount of latency that you would want to correct for. But I do think this topic with regards to VSL libraries is a worthwhile discussion at some point, I just haven't had time to dig into it.


----------



## David Kudell

Dewdman42 said:


> I do think some libraries take this issue to a much bigger extreme, CSS for example has ridiculous amounts of latency in some cases that is not attributable to the natural instrument attack transient. its quite possible that VSL has minimized it to such an extent that people just aren't noticing it. VSL Synchron and ViPro players also introduce actual humanization to pretty much every patch, which adds further amounts of delay in an inconsistent matter...which is what we want...but also makes it hard to pinpoint an exact amount of latency that you would want to correct for. But I do think this topic with regards to VSL libraries is a worthwhile discussion at some point, I just haven't had time to dig into it.


CSS was hard to wrap my head around until I figured out the workflow. For me, I almost always use the “fast” legato speed of 100ms. All you need to do is set the velocity of the notes to above 65 which you can do using a keyboard shortcut. Set the track delay to -100.

If I want to write slower lines I use the 250ms delay setting and set the velocity of notes to below 64 using a key command. Those go on a separate track with a delay setting of -250.

I never use the “Advanced“ mode and the slow delay of 320ms, I don’t find it necessary. 

What you don’t want to do is try to play it in and then sit there and move your notes around, that’s ridiculously slow. Just quantize and set them to the same velocity.

The editing of the start times of CSS is extremely consistent and dependable, so this actually makes it an easier library to work with in my experience, as opposed to other libraries that have not been edited with consistent delays from note to note.


----------



## Dewdman42

I was not meaning to infer any judgement about CSS being good or bad, just noting that the latency is due to scripting, rather then the raw natural instrument attack transient. As you pointed out, this is related to the legatos usually, and CSS is reknown for having "fancy" legatos, for lack of a better word. So naturally it has quite a lot of latency. Other libraries may have more "subtle" legatos, which don't require as much latency to achieve. I can't speak anything about which libraries might be inconsistent, but I agree, that would be a huge problem, other then "humanization" which is a good thing..and you simply count the average of humanized output to be somewhere in the middle of its range..and correct by that amount.


----------



## David Kudell

Dewdman42 said:


> I was not meaning to infer any judgement about CSS being good or bad, just noting that the latency is due to scripting, rather then the raw natural instrument attack transient. As you pointed out, this is related to the legatos usually, and CSS is reknown for having "fancy" legatos, for lack of a better word. So naturally it has quite a lot of latency. Other libraries may have more "subtle" legatos, which don't require as much latency to achieve. I can't speak anything about which libraries might be inconsistent, but I agree, that would be a huge problem, other then "humanization" which is a good thing..and you simply count the average of humanized output to be somewhere in the middle of its range..and correct by that amount.


Great points!

The humanization factor I have mixed feelings about - I see your point about adding realism, although I would need to be able to turn that off. My perspective on this recently changed when I worked on a score that was my first time having it recorded by live musicians. The mock-up needs to be blended in with the live recording, so the mock-up needs to be on the grid or else it would sound messy. If I ever want things to be “loose“ then I can easily set that in my DAW with the quantize settings, and I don’t want the sample developers making those decisions for me. But having the option is nice, for example like in LA Modern Percussion where there’s a “tightness“ control. I imagine what the Synchron player has something like that.


----------



## Dewdman42

That's why VSL sample players allow you to adjust the humanization settings entirely.


----------



## cedricm

Can you please post a link, I somehow can't open or save the spreadsheet.


----------



## David Kudell

cedricm said:


> Can you please post a link, I somehow can't open or save the spreadsheet.


Here’s the link.


----------



## cedricm

David Kudell said:


> Here’s the link.


Thanks David!
Do you know of a similar effort to centralize in a database or spreadsheet the differences of loudness of instruments/articulations?
Anna-Kathrin Dern for example, configures every track with a MIDI volume of 90 by default, a number that's changed when a library/instrument/articulation is noticably louder or quieter.
That way it's possible to mix and match library tracks without wasting time.


----------



## timprebble

INNERCLOCK who make Sync Gen (hardware + plugin) for reliably locking hardware have a litmus test page which lists the latency (& jitter) for many hardware synths, samplers etc...



https://www.innerclocksystems.com/litmus


----------



## David Kudell

cedricm said:


> Thanks David!
> Do you know of a similar effort to centralize in a database or spreadsheet the differences of loudness of instruments/articulations?
> Anna-Kathrin Dern for example, configures every track with a MIDI volume of 90 by default, a number that's changed when a library/instrument/articulation is noticably louder or quieter.
> That way it's possible to mix and match library tracks without wasting time.


I don’t think there’s such a database, but this is something probably best done with your ears anyway. There’s too many variables involved in that one.

Anne’s method of using 90 for CC7 as a starting point is a great way to go. Hans also recommends using 90 as a starting point, so there you go. I recently built a VEPro template so I like having that extra CC7 headroom from 90-127 to be able to boost an instrument that’s too quiet. I don’t use the Cubase midi track volume, I put CC7 at 90 in the Midi flags on all my tracks (in my template), and can adjust up or down in the flags. This is because Cubase won’t actually send the CC7 volume from the midi track volume unless you actually move or automate that fader, whereas when you play the MIDI flag, it will always reset that track volume when you open a new project.


----------



## JJDaly

David Kudell said:


> Great points!
> 
> The humanization factor I have mixed feelings about - I see your point about adding realism, although I would need to be able to turn that off. My perspective on this recently changed when I worked on a score that was my first time having it recorded by live musicians. The mock-up needs to be blended in with the live recording, so the mock-up needs to be on the grid or else it would sound messy. If I ever want things to be “loose“ then I can easily set that in my DAW with the quantize settings, and I don’t want the sample developers making those decisions for me. But having the option is nice, for example like in LA Modern Percussion where there’s a “tightness“ control. I imagine what the Synchron player has something like that.


Yeah,
I think Anna Katherine Dern kind of summed it up well here: (14:38)



If it was live musicians, and timing is such that you'd get them to do another take, well then that level of 'humanity' is probably excessive.


----------



## David Kudell

JJDaly said:


> Yeah,
> I think Anna Katherine Dern kind of summed it up well here: (14:38)
> 
> 
> 
> If it was live musicians, and timing is such that you'd get them to do another take, well then that level of 'humanity' is probably excessive.



Hehe, yep, and in fact the movie I mentioned was actually Anne’s. I had the privilege of writing some additional music for her, and I learned a ton. The methods she goes through in her channel really are ideal for getting high quality and still being efficient.


----------



## JJDaly

David Kudell said:


> Hehe, yep, and in fact the movie I mentioned was actually Anne’s. I had the privilege of writing some additional music for her, and I learned a ton. The methods she goes through in her channel really are ideal for getting high quality and still being efficient.


That's brilliant.
I have a ton of respect for both Anne and yourself.
Keep up the great work 👍

Thanks,

JJ


----------



## jadedsean

Maybe this has been asked before but why aren't developers chimming in with this information? Obviouly they should know these delay offsets as they developed these libraies and i am sure they use them also on a daily basis. Have we asked them? Also some develpers are very open with their delay offsets such as Cinematic Studio Series, granted they have to considering its major factor to making these libraies sound as good as possible, but surley this should be the same reaspning for most developers or am i wrong here?


----------



## Dewdman42

Calculating the offset is not an exact science. You have to do it by ear which is time consuming and somewhat subjective.

I think cinematic studios products have particularly large offsets along with Theo gorgeous legatos so they have been more under the spotlight and have gotten involved which is kudos to them. It may be a while if ever that it becomes standard practice to do so.


----------



## ennbr

Dewdman42 said:


> Calculating the offset is not an exact science. You have to do it by ear which is time consuming and somewhat subjective


Actually if you convert the track to audio it can be measured from most DAW's and is very accurate


----------



## Dewdman42

measure what though? I don't think you are understanding the issue. the delay is caused by a slow attack time, not by null audio


----------



## ennbr

Actually your looking for the transient of when the sample hits and that can be measured by bouncing the midi in place to audio then zoom into the waveform and measuring where the transient starts from start of where it should have been


----------



## Dewdman42

It’s not always that straightforward or precise. In fact mostly will not be and will come down using your ears


----------



## David Kudell

Looking at the transient can work for something like percussion, but not for a string legato. Think of a flautando or sul tasto legato - you can’t even see where the note changes.


----------



## TonalDynamics

David Kudell said:


> EDIT: Ok, here's a Google sheet I've created. If you're interested in contributing values for some instruments (and know how to use a Spreadsheet), let me know and I can give you write access.
> 
> ----
> Original post: Is there a database anywhere of negative track delay values? Going through my template, figuring it out, it seems like there ought to be a resource for this - a Google doc or something? Or is everyone just figuring it out on their own? I know some of the manufacturers post their delays (Cinematic Studio Series) but others don't. And some libraries have different delays per instrument.
> 
> Maybe there's a way we can create a shared doc or something?






David Kudell said:


> Great points!
> 
> The humanization factor I have mixed feelings about - I see your point about adding realism, although I would need to be able to turn that off. My perspective on this recently changed when I worked on a score that was my first time having it recorded by live musicians. The mock-up needs to be blended in with the live recording, so the mock-up needs to be on the grid or else it would sound messy. If I ever want things to be “loose“ then I can easily set that in my DAW with the quantize settings, and I don’t want the sample developers making those decisions for me. But having the option is nice, for example like in LA Modern Percussion where there’s a “tightness“ control. I imagine what the Synchron player has something like that.


Tight all the way, baby!

I am in the same camp as you regarding 'humanization' - since all humans are not equal in terms of timing.

Which humans are we 'izing' here anyway? A high school band that has half the players unable to keep tempo? Or seasoned pros who's timing is nearly always tight?

Any computer program that attempts to make a phrase more 'realistic' by means of shuffling around attack and release times generally just sounds like ass to me.

This is obviously more important with music that has a strong pulse, with slower/relaxed tempos providing a lot more freedom to the point where our ears don't really even notice it...

Kind of like you say, if I want swing in my piece I'll program it in, otherwise leave the 'human' parts to me


----------



## jadedsean

So then does this mean the Negative Track Delay Database is subjective to each person? Meaning, if the offset can't accurately be measured how do we know that the current delay offsets are correct. Of course you can try them out but I myself may think its less or more than the offsets given. Right?


----------



## ennbr

David Kudell said:


> Looking at the transient can work for something like percussion, but not for a string legato. Think of a flautando or sul tasto legato - you can’t even see where the note changes.


I agree with what you're saying David but by looking at the waveform I can adjust plus or minus and use the transient as a starting point certainly better than doing things just by ear. I like the combination of both listening and the zoomed in waveform when calculating my negative delay numbers.


----------



## David Kudell

jadedsean said:


> So then does this mean the Negative Track Delay Database is subjective to each person? Meaning, if the offset can't accurately be measured how do we know that the current delay offsets are correct. Of course you can try them out but I myself may think its less or more than the offsets given. Right?


Sure it can be accurately measured, you just have to know where the anomalies can occur and be aware of it.

For example, if a developer isn’t consistent with the editing of notes. A good example is BBCSO’s string shorts that I’ve read (but haven’t verified) don’t have consistent delays from note to note due to the way the audio samples were edited.

Another example is variable legato, such as Berlin Strings which play a faster legato transition when playing fast notes than slower notes. Or CSS which uses velocity to determine the legato delay.

One thing that should not affect delay is your audio setup. It’s important to keep in mind that all negative delay does is to send a Midi note a bit earlier. It’s a midi function not an audio one. So whether you use VEPro, or whatever buffer you have set on your audio interface has no effect on this.


----------



## Dewdman42

I would think that most libraries have some kind of audio happening starting at sample position 0 of the attack of the sample file. If not (due to editing) then that is poor editing in my view but yes those kinds of offsets could certainly be viewed graphically and calculated precisely.

Aside from that you’re dealing with sample attack transients which can depend in certain cases by how the original performer played the instrument. How the bow attacked the string for example could make a difference in that aspect. In real life players play their instruments intuitively ahead of the grid so that the sound coming out of their instrument will sound like it hits on the grid and they adjust that as they go and how they attack things. How consistent that will be in a sample library will depend a lot on how they captured, assembled and edited the material obviously. 

Legatos are a whole nother layer of complexity where can he hundreds of Milliseconds of transitional material that is definitely meant to be ahead of the grid so that the destination note will be on the grid. Again, real players start transitioning well ahead of the grid to finish the last note and arrive on the next note in time. Sample libraries make that further complicated to figure out by having variable legato speeds that need to be handled with different amounts of offset and there is not much visually that can be used to compute this with absolute certainty, it comes down to using your ear. I haven’t really used as many libraries as some of you but it’s definitely possible that some libraries may not have been consistent in some of this in which case you’d have to find a happy medium and appreciate the slop factor as a form of humanization.

In my view it would be better if sample makers embraced the idea we are talking about here and developed a particular library so that ALL articulations have the same amount of latency within any particular instrument. That means some articulations would have some null audio before a fast attack and only the slowest attacks and longest legatos would be using that full offset time to actually play sound; but then it would be a simple matter for midi composer to set track offset to that one offset value and everything would sound brilliant. But sample makers generally have not bought into anything like this yet. Maybe they will eventually with more awareness.


----------



## Henu

David Kudell said:


> BBCSO’s string shorts that I’ve read (but haven’t verified) don’t have consistent delays from note to note due to the way the audio samples were edited.


There's some fluctuation with SSS as well. Learned that the hard way.


----------



## andreu69

David Kudell said:


> Updated the database with the new Cinematic Studios 1.3 update's Low Latency legato option:
> 
> LOW LATENCY (new for vers 1.3):
> Medium: -90ms (0-64 velocity)
> Fast: -70ms (65-127 velocity)
> 
> EXPRESSIVE MODE:
> Slow: -220 (0-64 velocity)
> Med -130 (65-100 velocity)
> Fast -90 (101-127 v


----------



## Trash Panda

@David Kudell 

Below are more values for AROOF. I think they're the same for all short articulations with Tightness set to 0, but these are the ones I tested specifically.

High Strings Spiccato: -80 ms
Low Strings Spiccato: -60 ms
High & Low Winds Staccatissimo: -30 ms
Horns Staccatissimo: -40 ms
Trumpets & Low Brass Staccatissimo: -25 ms


----------



## easyrider

Cool


----------



## PaulieDC

Trash Panda said:


> @David Kudell
> 
> Below are more values for AROOF. I think they're the same for all short articulations with Tightness set to 0, but these are the ones I tested specifically.
> 
> High Strings Spiccato: -80 ms
> Low Strings Spiccato: -60 ms
> High & Low Winds Staccatissimo: -30 ms
> Horns Staccatissimo: -40 ms
> Trumpets & Low Brass Staccatissimo: -25 ms


Gold. 👍🏼


----------



## MarcusD

Excellent thread!

EDIT: Read most the thread and my questions was answered already.


----------



## Soundbed

@David Kudell and all, wanted to throw this out there...

_Not sure if it was mentioned in the previous comments — I searched for 'port' and 'portamento' and did not find CSS or CSSS mentioned._

I'd suggest mentioning the CSS and CSSS default "portamento" values.

Unless there is a reason to omit them?

They don't show up visually in the interface (which I think is a GUI omission that could be changed in the product). And because they can be changed, the documentation about them can be accidentally overlooked, or maybe even considered confusing, by some. Or at best (least?) there might be some cognitive dissonance in the back of your mind.

(For those who don't know, there is an audible difference between transitions equal to or less than 20 versus transitions 21 and greater — at the default settings. The actual value can be adjusted in the config settings area. It's most noticeable audibly in the Solo Strings as a portamento. But even the section strings have an "extra slow" portamento-ish transition sound that sounds faster at velocity 21 and above, which is _actually_ the "Medium" transition in Normal mode and the "Slow" transition in Advanced mode. In other words the portamento is happening at 20 and lower, but nothing on the GUI indicates it's a portamento, distinct from the "Slow" or "Medium" speeds displayed while you trigger it — in Normal and Advanced modes, respectively.)






Documentation in CSS and CSSS says:

_Expressive Portamento slides have also been included in CSS, and can be triggered by playing a legato transition at a velocity below the “Portamento Velocity” setting in the Config section. This is set to 20 by default, and the volume at which portamento slides are triggered can be selected via CC5 by default (this CC can be changed via the Config section)._

The slightly confusing thing I am talking about above is that while there are documented as part of legato, most of us (all of us?) would consider them different transitions versus those above the port threshold — but the timing documentation doesn't mention them.

Sooo ... I don't know what to say about the predelay. :(

Is it really the same as the rest of the velocity range? It's not really in the charts in the documentation. (Maybe it's been covered elsewhere?)

tl;dr

If you use a velocity of 20 or lower (which is configurable) you will get a different sound versus velocity 20-64. But I haven't committed enough time yet to investigating the predelay. So I'm opening it up for discussion.


Cinematic Studio Strings (and Solo)Standard Mode:
*Portamento: -???
(0-20 velocity by default)*
Medium: -250*
(21*-64 velocity)
Fast: -100
(65-127 velocity)

Advanced Mode:
*Portamento: -???
(0-20 velocity by default)*
Slow: -333*
(21*-64 velocity)
Med: -250
(65-100)
Fast: -100
(101-127)


----------



## jvckbplayer

David Kudell said:


> EDIT: Ok, here's a Google sheet I've created. If you're interested in contributing values for some instruments (and know how to use a Spreadsheet), let me know and I can give you write access.
> 
> ----
> Original post: Is there a database anywhere of negative track delay values? Going through my template, figuring it out, it seems like there ought to be a resource for this - a Google doc or something? Or is everyone just figuring it out on their own? I know some of the manufacturers post their delays (Cinematic Studio Series) but others don't. And some libraries have different delays per instrument.
> 
> Maybe there's a way we can create a shared doc or something?



Hello David, this sheet is great. I can also update for some lib that I have (on perc, strings and choir)


----------



## lgchess2

Soaring Strings seems to work perfect at -90ms across the board. Not sure why they don't advertise this.


----------



## David Kudell

Added some new stuff:

Metropolis Ark 5

Spitfire Abbey Road Selections:
Vibrant Reeds
Wondrous Flutes
Sparkling Winds
Mysterious Reeds


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen

Would it be helpful to people if we had a similar database/spreadsheet showing the dynamics for the articulations in a library?

For example:

Spitfire Symphonic Strings

Violins 1: Legato
fff: CC1=127 and CC11=127
ff: CC1=120 and CC11=127
f: CC1=84 and CC11=100
mf: etc.
mp: etc.
p: etc.
pp: etc.
ppp: etc.

Similarly for Spiccato, Pizzicato and so on, and of course for all the instruments in SSS.

I was hoping you were up for the job, @David Kudell 🙂

It would save many people a lot of time with a spreadsheet like this, I think.


----------



## Trash Panda

There is already the general MIDI dynamics chart of Wikipedia. This doesn’t really translate to sample libraries either as most top out their dynamics at ff or below and start at pp.


----------



## David Kudell

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Would it be helpful to people if we had a similar database/spreadsheet showing the dynamics for the articulations in a library?
> 
> For example:
> 
> Spitfire Symphonic Strings
> 
> Violins 1: Legato
> fff: CC1=127 and CC11=127
> ff: CC1=120 and CC11=127
> f: CC1=84 and CC11=100
> mf: etc.
> mp: etc.
> p: etc.
> pp: etc.
> ppp: etc.
> 
> Similarly for Spiccato, Pizzicato and so on, and of course for all the instruments in SSS.
> 
> I was hoping you were up for the job, @David Kudell 🙂
> 
> It would save many people a lot of time with a spreadsheet like this, I think.


I don’t quite have the bandwidth to take that on. Also I can’t imagine a scenario in which I’d need to reference that info, but maybe I’m missing something. Are the dynamic levels something you use when you’re composing?


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen

David Kudell said:


> I don’t quite have the bandwidth to take that on. Also I can’t imagine a scenario in which I’d need to reference that info, but maybe I’m missing something. Are the dynamic levels something you use when you’re composing?


(sorry for being OT in this thread)

Well, I’m only just starting to make mockups and I thought, “if only I knew what mf etc. was CC-wise on all my libs, then it would be much easier to make mockups, i.e. of Holst’s Jupiter”


----------



## mussnig

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> (sorry for being OT in this thread)
> 
> Well, I’m only just starting to make mockups and I thought, “if only I knew what mf etc. was CC-wise on all my libs, then it would be much easier to make mockups, i.e. of Holst’s Jupiter”


If you want to do that I would suggest taking a recording for reference. I am quite sure two different libs might have different sounding mf or whatever.

However, that table of levels might still be helpful if one wants to write a script to adapt CC1 curves between libraries.


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen

@David Kudell 

I have found the offsets for the Performance Legato-patches in Spitfire Chamber Strings to be:


VLN1-80VLN2-80VLA-100VLC-120DB-120


----------



## David Kudell

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> @David Kudell
> 
> I have found the offsets for the Performance Legato-patches in Spitfire Chamber Strings to be:
> 
> 
> VLN1-80VLN2-80VLA-100VLC-120DB-120


Thanks! Someone has offered to do the entire Chamber library, so we'll include those.


----------



## David Kudell

Hello all, we still have a lot of libraries that need numbers added, including some of the big ones still missing. If you see a library or two you'd like to add, send me a message here on VI-C. Thanks!


----------



## justthere

My thinking is that this concept needs to be implemented early in a traditional sample-based library development phase, and that library engines will need to be altered to support the use of sync points embedded in the individual sample so that a track’s playback can be prebuffered and the individual offsets applied appropriately to individual notes and contexts, either via the sampler engine’s internal logic or the DAW’s ability to directly control the sampler engine - which would handle any legato transitions by adjusting for tempo and context such that e.g. the first in a series of overlapping notes would not get the same adjustment as the subsequent ones, and that the performance triggers for various legato transitions would define how the sample player would represent the intended expression via offsets, relying on the definition of two points - the start of the legato transition and the completion of it. This whole thing requires a MIDI lookahead which can happen much faster than real-time and obviate the issue of negative-delaying tracks entirely - and ideally would have a level of integration with the DAW that doesn’t exist in any form as of now. 

And of course the rules would be much simpler if one were using modeled instruments. The rules could be far more nuanced for either, depending on the amount of detail in the sample library - to account for contextual timing ideas - say, the swing of a Viennese waltz or even the approach of a given conductor - or other idiomatic approaches, via a huge amount of machine learning; because these characteristics go far beyond merely quantizing, and would be addressed globally via contextual tempo and general dynamic shifts, and sectionally in instrument-specific ways.

If you can measure it, it can be modeled. But I’ll be honest - I don’t wanna.


----------



## Dewdman42

justthere said:


> My thinking is that this concept needs to be implemented early in a traditional sample-based library development phase, and that library engines will need to be altered to support the use of sync points embedded in the individual sample so that a track’s playback can be prebuffered and the individual offsets applied appropriately to individual notes and contexts,



Yes



justthere said:


> This whole thing requires a MIDI lookahead which can happen much faster than real-time and obviate the issue of negative-delaying tracks entirely - and ideally would have a level of integration with the DAW that doesn’t exist in any form as of now.



Yes. Midi Lookahead means, the plugins would have latency. But that is how it could be achieved automatically by any developer interested that is using their own player to do so.


----------



## justthere

But: if an instrument has embedded sync points, since the offsetting operations only happen to data that’s already recorded on the track, the instrument would react to live performance the same as it would now - or even better if there were an option for live-performance latency that was different from the recorded one. With these offsets embedded, it would be a matter of a note being played at a different start point if live than when it was already on the track. A flag designating “input, not playback”, stripped away when recording was done, would tell the instrument and the DAW how to deal with a sample’s start point, offset, etc.


----------



## zigzag

In Dorico midi can be offsetted from note. If DAW could read sample's start point offset it could automatically apply the offset. 

If user inputs notes manually, DAW would interpret input times as notes ("visual-times") and would apply the offsets to midi.
If user records midi in real-time, DAW would interpret input times as midi (with offset already applied) and would apply the offsets to notes.

MIDI 2.0 already supports two-way communication.


----------



## justthere

zigzag said:


> In Dorico midi can be offsetted from note. If DAW could read sample's start point offset it could automatically apply the offset.


So for instance, can you assign note timing adjustments to articulations? And slurs? So the first note of a slurred passage would be one adjustment but every note following it would be another? 

And if I had a dynamic marking in there would that be able to further modify the adjustment? 

And can these things be stored as behavioral presets?

And how would one handle using more than one string library, for instance?

Sorry - lots of questions.


----------



## zigzag

justthere said:


> So for instance, can you assign note timing adjustments to articulations? And slurs? So the first note of a slurred passage would be one adjustment but every note following it would be another?
> 
> And if I had a dynamic marking in there would that be able to further modify the adjustment?
> 
> And can these things be stored as behavioral presets?
> 
> And how would one handle using more than one string library, for instance?
> 
> Sorry - lots of questions.


I think it doesn't have those features, but I actually don't own Dorico. I just saw a video of how it separates notated and played midi values. It seems like a great starting point upon which more advanced features you mentioned "could" be build. I wish more programs would adopt this distinction.


----------



## Bear Market

Some general thoughts on this (based on my own work with aligning sample starts across libraries and articulations in my own template).

It is not as easy as arriving at a negative delay value and then share that value for others to use. There are more factors to consider.

If we use Spitfire Chamber Strings as an example (since I saw that someone recently posted proposed delay offsets for its Legato patches), there are at least two things to consider:

1. Which reference signal has been used to arrive at the appropriate offset value in ms? The close mic? The tree? The outriggers?

2. What "tightness" value was used when arriving at the appropriate offset value? Many Spitfire libraries offer the ability to control "tightness" via cc which cuts into the sample start. "Tightness" at 0 vs 127 makes a significant difference.


----------



## David Kudell

Bear Market said:


> If we use Spitfire Chamber Strings as an example (since I saw that someone recently posted proposed delay offsets for its Legato patches), there are at least two things to consider:
> 
> 1. Which reference signal has been used to arrive at the appropriate offset value in ms? The close mic? The tree? The outriggers?
> 
> 2. What "tightness" value was used when arriving at the appropriate offset value? Many Spitfire libraries offer the ability to control "tightness" via cc which cuts into the sample start. "Tightness" at 0 vs 127 makes a significant difference.


Hey there, thanks for your thoughts. I didn't measure SCS (another contributor did) so I can't say. I'd say that the default setting that loads with the patch is what should be used. If someone wants to use custom mic positions or change the tightness setting they can verify any effect that has to the delay times.



Bear Market said:


> It is not as easy as arriving at a negative delay value and then share that value for others to use. There are more factors to consider.


I've always said this is a starting point but you should verify it yourself, especially if you are doing this professionally. At the bare minimum, it's a starting number you can type in and it will get you in the ballpark. This didn't exist until I put it together and I'm not charging anything for it, so hopefully folks keep that in mind before getting too critical about it. If someone wants to create a better version of this, I'm certainly not stopping anyone from spending the time to make their own.


----------



## Bear Market

David Kudell said:


> I've always said this is a starting point but you should verify it yourself, especially if you are doing this professionally. At the bare minimum, it's a starting number you can type in and it will get you in the ballpark. This didn't exist until I put it together and I'm not charging anything for it, so hopefully folks keep that in mind before getting too critical about it. If someone wants to create a better version of this, I'm certainly not stopping anyone from spending the time to make their own.


It wasn't my intention to bash the initiative. I'm sorry if it came across that way. I think the project is excellent and can be very helpful. I just wanted to point out a couple of factors people need to pay attention to in order to get the most out of it, that's all.


----------



## David Kudell

I’ve made a video that explains the whole thing, hope you find this helpful!


----------



## Maxime Luft

David Kudell said:


> I’ve made a video that explains the whole thing, hope you find this helpful!



Great video @David Kudell super useful knowledge there!
And everything you say about sampling is true, you seem to know a lot more than me :D


----------



## dbudimir

David Kudell said:


> I’ve made a video that explains the whole thing, hope you find this helpful!




Great video!! I really like when you get mad, quit, and walk away. Done that many times!! 😂


----------



## A.Dern

David Kudell said:


> I’ve made a video that explains the whole thing, hope you find this helpful!



Definitely the most comprehensive video I've seen on the topic! Now I have something to point people to when they ask about it. The demonstration and explanation is 🔥 too!


----------



## MarcMahler89

Great work David! 
Really appreciate the work you put into it, so im inspired to add something on my own:
Some values for CSS (Cinematic Studio Strings) & CSB (Cinematic Studio Brass) as CSW is already in your list:

*CSS*:
Advanced Legato Mode : 
Slow: 333ms
Medium: 250ms
Fast: 100ms

*CSB*:
Values differ here for the trumpets (for whatever reason... the manual states its more "realistic" - for me its quite an annoyance)

Trumpets: 
Fast: 100ms
Medium: 180ms
Slow: 180ms

Everything else:
Fast: 100ms
Medium: 230ms
Slow: 230ms


----------



## David Kudell

MarcMahler89 said:


> Great work David!
> Really appreciate the work you put into it, so im inspired to add something on my own:
> Some values for CSS (Cinematic Studio Strings) & CSB (Cinematic Studio Brass) as CSW is already in your list:
> 
> *CSS*:
> Advanced Legato Mode :
> Slow: 333ms
> Medium: 250ms
> Fast: 100ms
> 
> *CSB*:
> Values differ here for the trumpets (for whatever reason... the manual states its more "realistic" - for me its quite an annoyance)
> 
> Trumpets:
> Fast: 100ms
> Medium: 180ms
> Slow: 180ms
> 
> Everything else:
> Fast: 100ms
> Medium: 230ms
> Slow: 230ms


Thanks! So, if you click on the tabs at the bottom of the Google Sheet, you'll see strings, brass, percussion, etc. Those are listed on those tabs.


----------



## MarcMahler89

David Kudell said:


> Thanks! So, if you click on the tabs at the bottom of the Google Sheet, you'll see strings, brass, percussion, etc. Those are listed on those tabs.


Whoops, nevermind. Running short on caffeine i guess.


----------



## Jonesy

Hello David et al.

Thanks to everybody who has contributed to these timings.

My hobby (in my dotage), since I’m not a composer, is to mock-up ‘classical’ works. To do this, with a little help from Photoscore, I create a virtual conductor score with each stave/instrument having its own track. Thus there are a mixture of note lengths (beyond my control) on each track, and there may be triad chords.

In Cubase I use expression maps to specify the articulation; but I only use these to specify a value for CC0. All the instructions to control the instrument in the instance of Kontakt are decoded within my own script. In this way I can have a mixture of different ‘manufacturers’ of the instrument within the instance of Kontakt, playing separately or overlaid as required. Also, for example, I use a subset of four CSS string instances: three playing individual notes of a sustain triad (CSS sustain without legato switched on is not good) and the fourth playing short notes/chords.

I am now including delays within the script, similar to Alex Vincent’s CSS Control Panel, but tailored to my own needs without all the work of the GUI. However, with respect, I believe my script has an advantage in that it uses the Liberg-Villwock ‘taskfuncs’ to enable virtual multithreading; this means that the track can have long negative delays and yet process notes of much shorter length correctly without overwriting them. I am happy to publish the script here (or, if inappropriate, on any other thread).

But now I’ll come to the point: I’m pretty good on tuning but I’m lousy on timing. I’m having difficulty in determining the delay of the first note of a CSS legato phrase. It seems to me it should be 60ms, the same as the shorts, but I’m not so sure. Any help please?

Also, it was really fortuitous for me to see Anne-Kathrin post on this thread. If you are reading A-K I was so impressed with your string sound on the Jurassic Park tutorial that I have just bought CS2. As you do, I hope to blend CS2 with CSS within the above script. I requested information on the unpublished timing of CS2 from Cinematic Studio and (after buying all their products) they were most unhelpful. Can anybody help please?

Best to all.


----------



## Ronny D. Ana

A.Dern said:


> Definitely the most comprehensive video I've seen on the topic! Now I have something to point people to when they ask about it. The demonstration and explanation is 🔥 too!


In fact that's a workaround because Steinberg is not able to integrate negative delay into expression maps! So I think it would be better to point people to Steinberg or other DAW providers fixing this issues than pointing them to a workaround.


----------



## David Kudell

Jonesy said:


> But now I’ll come to the point: I’m pretty good on tuning but I’m lousy on timing. I’m having difficulty in determining the delay of the first note of a CSS legato phrase. It seems to me it should be 60ms, the same as the shorts, but I’m not so sure. Any help please?
> 
> I requested information on the unpublished timing of CS2 from Cinematic Studio and (after buying all their products) they were most unhelpful. Can anybody help please?
> 
> Best to all.


The first note of CSS sustain sounds like -50 or -60ms to me ( I have -50 in the database).

I added in the numbers for CS2, I thought they were in there already but I guess not.


----------



## David Kudell

Ronny D. Ana said:


> In fact that's a workaround because Steinberg is not able to integrate negative delay into expression maps! So I think it would be better to point people to Steinberg or other DAW providers fixing this issues than pointing them to a workaround.


Hi Ronny, I'm not calling it a workaround. It's actually my preferred method of writing! There are other benefits to the single track workflow. 

If you want Steinberg to implement negative delays into expression maps, feel free to let them know, I support your efforts 100%.


----------



## Trash Panda

Trash Panda said:


> @David Kudell
> 
> Below are more values for AROOF. I think they're the same for all short articulations with Tightness set to 0, but these are the ones I tested specifically.
> 
> High Strings Spiccato: -80 ms
> Low Strings Spiccato: -60 ms
> High & Low Winds Staccatissimo: -30 ms
> Horns Staccatissimo: -40 ms
> Trumpets & Low Brass Staccatissimo: -25 ms


@David Kudell not sure if you saw this post a few pages back. The values you have for ARO Foundations are not accurate unless they are for the default Tightness value of 50. 

The quoted ones above are correct when using a Tightness value of 0.


----------



## Tronam

Thank you so much for creating this. After a major update to BBCSO about a year ago(?) I was wondering why the timing of the Celli legato lines were so off on all of my older projects. It was really disheartening and Spitfire tech support wasn't very helpful in providing any way to backdate to a previous version of the library.


----------



## Ronny D. Ana

David Kudell said:


> Hi Ronny, I'm not calling it a workaround. It's actually my preferred method of writing! There are other benefits to the single track workflow.
> 
> If you want Steinberg to implement negative delays into expression maps, feel free to let them know, I support your efforts 100%.


I know that there are other benefits to the single track workflow. Many of the well known (like @A.Dern or JunkyXL) or the nameless composers prefer the single track workflow but can not accompish it because of the issue with different track delays in different articulations of the same instrument. I for myself (as a nameless composer 😆) prefer it also. If you write on a sheet of music you want to have one line per instrument and that's anchored in your brain. So everything else is not very authentic (my opinion).
That's the reason why I call "negative *track* delay" a workaround because there should be "negative *articulation* delays"
Whenever I can (like here) I point to this but Steinberg or other DAW providers will not implement a feature for one customer...


----------



## A.Dern

Ronny D. Ana said:


> I know that there are other benefits to the single track workflow. Many of the well known (like @A.Dern or JunkyXL) or the nameless composers prefer the single track workflow but can not accompish it because of the issue with different track delays in different articulations of the same instrument. I for myself (as a nameless composer 😆) prefer it also. If you write on a sheet of music you want to have one line per instrument and that's anchored in your brain. So everything else is not very authentic (my opinion).
> That's the reason why I call "negative *track* delay" a workaround because there should be "negative *articulation* delays"
> Whenever I can (like here) I point to this but Steinberg or other DAW providers will not implement a feature for one customer...


Comparing DAW writing / production with writing sheet music is very futile. It's not the same concept and even if the negative track delay wasn't an issue, I'd still prefer split articulations. A virtual orchestra is not treated the same way as a live orchestra and I wouldn't want the live restrictions placed upon my music when it's never even meant to be performed on stage. Film music is recorded music after all, different (or fewer) rules apply.


----------



## MadLad

First of all, I love what you did, thank you so much, @David Kudell! Second, I noticed there is no information about the EastWest libraries. I started using them and I can't quite figure out the correct track delay. Sustain Samples and Shorts seem to be on the beat most of the time, yet not always and the legato samples sometimes are and sometimes aren't. It can get extra confusing when you combine it with different libraries (CSS for me). Do you work with EastWest samples (especially the Hollywood Opus stuff) and have some insight?


----------



## David Kudell

MadLad said:


> First of all, I love what you did, thank you so much, @David Kudell! Second, I noticed there is no information about the EastWest libraries. I started using them and I can't quite figure out the correct track delay. Sustain Samples and Shorts seem to be on the beat most of the time, yet not always and the legato samples sometimes are and sometimes aren't. It can get extra confusing when you combine it with different libraries (CSS for me). Do you work with EastWest samples (especially the Hollywood Opus stuff) and have some insight?


I don’t have any East West products but someone has volunteered to work on the Opus stuff so hopefully that will help out. I’ll post when that’s ready. I’m not sure why you’re finding it difficult, but there are some libraries that are not edited consistently.


----------



## Alex_Krownway

Absolutely a great thread and a killer video ! 
Are there numbers for 8Dio's Century series? I can't find any mention of them in the current spreadsheet


----------



## madfloyd

I have a question - and this mostly relates to the CSS libraries. 

Instead of using a separate track per articulation, I'm wondering if a hybrid could make sense. It seems that the timings for all non-legato articulations are the same (at least for WW and Brass). Could one not use keyswitches for the non-legato articulations utilizing a single negative track delay?


----------



## liquidlino

madfloyd said:


> I have a question - and this mostly relates to the CSS libraries.
> 
> Instead of using a separate track per articulation, I'm wondering if a hybrid could make sense. It seems that the timings for all non-legato articulations are the same (at least for WW and Brass). Could one not use keyswitches for the non-legato articulations utilizing a single negative track delay?


Thats exactly how I have my CSS setup. One track for legato, one track for pretty much everything else. Plus my special sauce on the legato (see my signature)


----------



## madfloyd

liquidlino said:


> Thats exactly how I have my CSS setup. One track for legato, one track for pretty much everything else. Plus my special sauce on the legato (see my signature)


Thanks. Interesting 'special sauce', would love to have this in Studio One.


----------



## MadLad

I think I figured out a few EW Opus figures:

The brass and Woodwind legatos all seem to have -80ms track delay. The Tuba is a bit odd. The normal legato patch has -100ms delay but the legato accent patch has about -110ms.

The shorts seem to be consistent at -60ms. I haven't tested all of them but all the ones I have are -60ms.

I have to test this with the Hollywood strings, too. At first glance, they seem to be consistent with the winds but the new 18Violins patch seems to have a slightly bigger delay in the legatos.

This is just a first overview but maybe it'll help people like me who are new to this library to get started.


----------



## TonalDynamics

A.Dern said:


> Comparing DAW writing / production with writing sheet music is very futile. It's not the same concept and even if the negative track delay wasn't an issue, I'd still prefer split articulations. A virtual orchestra is not treated the same way as a live orchestra and I wouldn't want the live restrictions placed upon my music when it's never even meant to be performed on stage. Film music is recorded music after all, different (or fewer) rules apply.


I mean all the major productions are still using live orchestra for their recordings, and those players need sheet music to be able to play their parts, so I wouldn't exactly call the comparison 'futile'...

I hear what you're saying in regards to putting ITB and traditional orchestration in their own boxes, particularly in regards to ensemble types and section sizes, but I think that distinction can be rather academic at times--or rather, I think we have been _forced_ to come to terms with the distinction as a direct result of the abject failure on the part of developers to make more musical software that already has these sorts of critical features and best practices ironed out.

We are _way_ behind the VFX pros, the Web Devs, the Architects, etc., in terms of the quality of our professional tools, and I think it's because digital orchestration is comparatively niche, even to CAD style work.

As I see it, we're still very much 'on the frontier' as composers in the digital realm, a solid decade or so behind the other professions I mentioned in terms of the quality of our tools, over two decades into the digital music revolution...

But we muddle through, don't we?

Cheers


----------



## A.Dern

TonalDynamics said:


> I mean all the major productions are still using live orchestra for their recordings, and those players need sheet music to be able to play their parts, so I wouldn't exactly call the comparison 'futile'...
> 
> I hear what you're saying in regards to putting ITB and traditional orchestration in their own boxes, particularly in regards to ensemble types and section sizes, but I think that distinction can be rather academic at times--or rather, I think we have been _forced_ to come to terms with the distinction as a direct result of the abject failure on the part of developers to make more musical software that already has these sorts of critical features and best practices ironed out.
> 
> We are _way_ behind the VFX pros, the Web Devs, the Architects, etc., in terms of the quality of our professional tools, and I think it's because digital orchestration is comparatively niche, even to CAD style work.
> 
> As I see it, we're still very much 'on the frontier' as composers in the digital realm, a solid decade or so behind the other professions I mentioned in terms of the quality of our tools, over two decades into the digital music revolution...
> 
> But we muddle through, don't we?
> 
> Cheers


That sheet music is created by orchestrators though, whose job it is to translate the MIDI into something playable. The composers don't have to concern themselves with any of that. Aside from that, we often "stripe" the orchestra anyway, meaning the different sections are recorded separately and then mixed and balanced later. Often, the mockup is mixed into the recordings as well. It's also customary to have "overdub passes" for all the bits that can't be played in one go (for example when you have the strings play an ostinato but you also want a sweeping melody or harmonics on top). Due to this freedom, we can go pretty wild in our writing. We basically have a double (or triple) orchestra at our disposal with these recording techniques. Therefore, some of us prefer to have all articulations available at all times so we can mix and layer them in unique and creative ways however we see fit (for the picture). We create combos all the time that wouldn't work with a full live orchestra but it's not really important since it's heavily produced music, not concert music (where one would be very much limited in what sonically works in the room and how much divisi can effectively happen). So I don't necessarily see those sample library quirks as bugs but rather as features that cater to the way we write scores, not concert music. That being said, consistent pre-delays would be fantastic...


----------



## tonio_

Hey! I believe that the values for the shorts on JXL Brass are slightly off. I only have the Trombones a3, Solo Trombone and a6 Horns, but they sound much more on the beat with -40ms than -50ms


----------



## madfloyd

Wow, I had no idea different orchestral sections could be recorded separately... do they play to a click track???


----------



## A.Dern

madfloyd said:


> Wow, I had no idea different orchestral sections could be recorded separately... do they play to a click track???


Yes, they do! It's really quite interesting and only something that could be done very effectively with the digital age (and unlimited tracks / mics). I've made a video about it called "How Film Scores Are Recorded" if you're interested in learning about this.


----------



## madfloyd

A.Dern said:


> Yes, they do! It's really quite interesting and only something that could be done very effectively with the digital age (and unlimited tracks / mics). I've made a video about it called "How Film Scores Are Recorded" if you're interested in learning about this.


Thanks, Anne!


----------



## TonalDynamics

A.Dern said:


> That sheet music is created by orchestrators though, whose job it is to translate the MIDI into something playable. The composers don't have to concern themselves with any of that. Aside from that, we often "stripe" the orchestra anyway, meaning the different sections are recorded separately and then mixed and balanced later. Often, the mockup is mixed into the recordings as well. It's also customary to have "overdub passes" for all the bits that can't be played in one go (for example when you have the strings play an ostinato but you also want a sweeping melody or harmonics on top). Due to this freedom, we can go pretty wild in our writing. We basically have a double (or triple) orchestra at our disposal with these recording techniques. Therefore, some of us prefer to have all articulations available at all times so we can mix and layer them in unique and creative ways however we see fit (for the picture). We create combos all the time that wouldn't work with a full live orchestra but it's not really important since it's heavily produced music, not concert music (where one would be very much limited in what sonically works in the room and how much divisi can effectively happen). So I don't necessarily see those sample library quirks as bugs but rather as features that cater to the way we write scores, not concert music. That being said, consistent pre-delays would be fantastic...


Well section overdubbing has been a thing long before the digital era, but yeah you shouldn't generally be writing music for live orchestra as a _media_ composer, that's not the point I was making... although it's worth pointing out, that not _every_ producer, director, or client is going to want 'avant garde cinematic', or HZ style Frankensections with 60 Celli--occasionally they might actually want the J.W. style traditional score (possibly just for a single piece within the score) in which case respecting the section balances within a 100-odd instrument orchestra is going to lend a lot of authenticity to your writing.

You hear horror stories about a lot of session musicians really struggling with wild and incomprehensible sheet music (check out some posts on this forum about the 'divisi code') and that kind of disjointed writing/transcribing WILL have some effect on the way the player is going to interpret the piece - maybe the effect is that it requires dozens of takes instead of 3 or 4, or even worse, maybe the emotion suffers somehow.

That is why I say that comparing DAW production with writing good sheet music parts (regardless of whether a transcriber is involved or not) is _not_ a futile comparison;it's all related to the end result when real orchestra sessions are involved--you are of course free to disagree 

Real musicians need to have parts they can comprehend and _believe in_ to play at their absolute best, and if you go too loosely in the 'keep stacking section parts' direction it can get into a 'less is more' scenario really quickly in my experience (as a mix engineer/producer), particularly in live sessions where the low-end or some kind of harshness starts to accumulate in menacing ways that you _only_ discover during mixing after all the musicians have already gone home--easy to fix with samples, not so easy with super expensive recordings.

So even though you _can_ overdub to infinity, you really _shouldn't_ if it's possible to avoid it, and good solid part writing is a big part of that and helps keep the number of redundant/potentially messy tracks to a minimum.

There is something about the confines of a traditional orchestra that forces you realize your ideas more concretely and comprehensibly, and I think we'd certainly all be wise to heed the 'lessons' of the orchestra, and keep building outward from it (regardless of ensemble types or section sizes), as opposed to looking upon it as some kind of inferior medium that we've 'evolved past', or some equally misguided notion.

❤️ 
Bucky


----------



## A.Dern

TonalDynamics said:


> Well section overdubbing has been a thing long before the digital era, but yeah you shouldn't generally be writing music for live orchestra as a _media_ composer, that's not the point I was making... although it's worth pointing out, that not _every_ producer, director, or client is going to want 'avant garde cinematic', or HZ style Frankensections with 60 Celli--occasionally they might actually want the J.W. style traditional score (possibly just for a single piece within the score) in which case respecting the section balances within a 100-odd instrument orchestra is going to lend a lot of authenticity to your writing.
> 
> You hear horror stories about a lot of session musicians really struggling with wild and incomprehensible sheet music (check out some posts on this forum about the 'divisi code') and that kind of disjointed writing/transcribing WILL have some effect on the way the player is going to interpret the piece - maybe the effect is that it requires dozens of takes instead of 3 or 4, or even worse, maybe the emotion suffers somehow.
> 
> That is why I say that comparing DAW production with writing good sheet music parts (regardless of whether a transcriber is involved or not) is _not_ a futile comparison;it's all related to the end result when real orchestra sessions are involved--you are of course free to disagree
> 
> Real musicians need to have parts they can comprehend and _believe in_ to play at their absolute best, and if you go too loosely in the 'keep stacking section parts' direction it can get into a 'less is more' scenario really quickly in my experience (as a mix engineer/producer), particularly in live sessions where the low-end or some kind of harshness starts to accumulate in menacing ways that you _only_ discover during mixing after all the musicians have already gone home--easy to fix with samples, not so easy with super expensive recordings.
> 
> So even though you _can_ overdub to infinity, you really _shouldn't_ if it's possible to avoid it, and good solid part writing is a big part of that and helps keep the number of redundant/potentially messy tracks to a minimum.
> 
> There is something about the confines of a traditional orchestra that forces you realize your ideas more concretely and comprehensibly, and I think we'd certainly all be wise to heed the 'lessons' of the orchestra, and keep building outward from it (regardless of ensemble types or section sizes), as opposed to looking upon it as some kind of inferior medium that we've 'evolved past', or some equally misguided notion.
> 
> ❤️
> Bucky


We can certainly agree to disagree. I see this development more as an evolution from traditional concert music (with no disrespect to the original medium intended). A lot of the things you describe still fall within the scope of the orchestrator's job. It's up to them to listen to the mockup, look at the MIDI, and create sheet music that makes sense in a live session and presents itself as a coherent logical musical performance for the players. There are many things I do in mockups after all that I would not translate identically to the page. If frequently more than 3-5 takes are needed to nail it though, I would start to question the orchestrator, not the composer or their writing style (unless the composer didn't allow the orchestrators to fix anything). I haven't heard of very many sessions where dozens of takes were needed though. Most professional session musicians can make anything work (even some utter nonsense we write on occasion under time pressure) but most experienced orchestrators also anticipate problems that may arise and solve them before the sheet music hits the stands. Though I don't doubt there are occasional nightmare sessions where stuff just doesn't work and people get increasingly frustrated. I've witnessed two brass sessions here in LA where that was the case (though it was the brass players in both cases not being at their best those days - there was nothing inherently wrong or difficult in the sheet music or writing).


----------



## David Kudell

Had some downtime between cues (thanks Anne!) so I made some updates to the database:

- Added *Berlin Con Sordino Strings*! 
I did all the major articulations, the specials like harmonic tremolos and hotel mutes I don't really bother with doing delays. 

- Added *CinePerc*

- Updated the numbers for *JunkieXL Brass* shorts - thanks @tonio_ for the heads up! The updated numbers are highlighted and just go from -50 to -40.


----------



## David Kudell

By the way, it's crazy to log on to the sheet and see anywhere from 5-15 viewing it at any moment. Glad to see it's become so useful!


----------



## TonalDynamics

David Kudell said:


> By the way, it's crazy to log on to the sheet and see anywhere from 5-15 viewing it at any moment. Glad to see it's become so useful!


Kudos, David!

I'm considering using the 'lite' version of your 1 articulation per track technique, and just making dedicated legato tracks for my Berlin template, as many of the other artics.--particularly the shorts--share a lot of common note delay.

Thoughts on doing that vs. full-fledged 1 track-1 articulation?


----------



## David Kudell

Trash Panda said:


> @David Kudell not sure if you saw this post a few pages back. The values you have for ARO Foundations are not accurate unless they are for the default Tightness value of 50.
> 
> The quoted ones above are correct when using a Tightness value of 0.


Shouldn't we list the default tightness of 50 though? Lowering to 0 cuts into the sample start just for playability's sake, and could throw a lot of people off who don't see that detail.


----------



## Trash Panda

David Kudell said:


> Shouldn't we list the default tightness of 50 though? Lowering to 0 cuts into the sample start just for playability's sake, and could throw a lot of people off who don't see that detail.


Lowering tightness to zero allows the full pre-transient to play. Setting it to 100 cuts into it. Leaving it at 50 cuts out roughly half the transient.


----------



## David Kudell

Trash Panda said:


> Lowering tightness to zero allows the full pre-transient to play. Setting it to 100 cuts into it. Leaving it at 50 cuts out roughly half the transient.


Ah ok, thank you. Those values were added by another contributor, but I will look into it. I'll probably list both the default value along with the value with tightness set to 0.


----------



## David Kudell

By the way, I'm surprised nobody has volunteered to do any of the Albions. Anyone want to tackle any of those?


----------



## MarcusD

Can provide what I use for Albion One, if that’s of any help?


----------



## madfloyd

I see that there isn't any data for any of the Vienna libraries. Lack of users/contributors or are those libraries produced so tightly that negative track delay isn't required?


----------



## tonio_

madfloyd said:


> I see that there isn't any data for any of the Vienna libraries. Lack of users/contributors or are those libraries produced so tightly that negative track delay isn't required?


I was about to write about this actually. I've read in a few places that VSL doesn't require predelays, but in Synchronized Woodwinds the Pure Legato (unlooped) definitely does, not sure about the other types of legato though


----------



## madfloyd

David Kudell said:


> Had some downtime between cues (thanks Anne!) so I made some updates to the database:
> 
> - Added *Berlin Con Sordino Strings*!
> I did all the major articulations, the specials like harmonic tremolos and hotel mutes I don't really bother with doing delays.
> 
> - Added *CinePerc*
> 
> - Updated the numbers for *JunkieXL Brass* shorts - thanks @tonio_ for the heads up! The updated numbers are highlighted and just go from -50 to -40.


David, I notice there are no values for CinePerc timpani... not necessary or not known/entered yet?


----------



## MarcusD

madfloyd said:


> David, I notice there are no values for CinePerc timpani... not necessary or not known/entered yet?


I find most of the CinePerc is roughly around -5 to -20 with Timps being around -10. However, some of the shaker patches seem to range between -30 to -130. That's just going of ears and a click track, not precise measurements.


----------



## brek

MadLad said:


> I think I figured out a few EW Opus figures:
> 
> The brass and Woodwind legatos all seem to have -80ms track delay. The Tuba is a bit odd. The normal legato patch has -100ms delay but the legato accent patch has about -110ms.
> 
> The shorts seem to be consistent at -60ms. I haven't tested all of them but all the ones I have are -60ms.
> 
> I have to test this with the Hollywood strings, too. At first glance, they seem to be consistent with the winds but the new 18Violins patch seems to have a slightly bigger delay in the legatos.
> 
> This is just a first overview but maybe it'll help people like me who are new to this library to get started.


Further complicating things for HW Strings is that legato speed is dependent on velocity. When velocity is maxed its around -80ms, but lower velocities are more like -150 to -200ms in the patches I've looked at.


----------



## David Kudell

madfloyd said:


> I see that there isn't any data for any of the Vienna libraries. Lack of users/contributors or are those libraries produced so tightly that negative track delay isn't required?


Nobody's volunteered to do those yet. Anyone want to take a crack at it?



madfloyd said:


> David, I notice there are no values for CinePerc timpani... not necessary or not known/entered yet?


Oops, forgot about those. I'll add them in when I get a chance.


MarcusD said:


> Can provide what I use for Albion One, if that’s of any help?


Yes that'd be great! Basically if you want to put your numbers into a Google Sheet and send me a link I can copy and paste it into the database.


----------



## David Kudell

brek said:


> Further complicating things for HW Strings is that legato speed is dependent on velocity. When velocity is maxed its around -80ms, but lower velocities are more like -150 to -200ms in the patches I've looked at.


Ha, so they were doing the CSS trick before CSS was even invented.


----------



## MarcusD

David Kudell said:


> Yes that'd be great! Basically if you want to put your numbers into a Google Sheet and send me a link I can copy and paste it into the database.


*Here's* the list 👍


----------



## MadLad

brek said:


> Further complicating things for HW Strings is that legato speed is dependent on velocity. When velocity is maxed its around -80ms, but lower velocities are more like -150 to -200ms in the patches I've looked at.


Yeah found that out the hard way. For now, I'm using low velocities for the strings and a negative track delay of approx. -150ms always seems to be on the beat more or less. But I also have CSS and got used to that approach rather quickly.

You could also go for max velocity that way the -80ms corresponds to the brass and woodwinds legato


----------



## David Kudell

MarcusD said:


> *Here's* the list 👍


Thanks! So are the patches on the left all the same, just with different articulations? If so, I'd just use one row for all the articulations, as we have done on the rest of the database. (takes up less space) Let me know if that makes sense.


----------



## MarcusD

David Kudell said:


> Thanks! So are the patches on the left all the same, just with different articulations? If so, I'd just use one row for all the articulations, as we have done on the rest of the database. (takes up less space) Let me know if that makes sense.


Yes, some of the sections have more than one legato or long patch etc... each with slightly different delay. Where I've used terms like Longs (instead of Long) it means all the Long patches of that section share the same delay setting.

Make's sense to use one row!


----------



## David Kudell

MarcusD said:


> Yes, some of the sections have more than one legato or long patch etc... each with slightly different delay. Where I've used terms like Longs (instead of Long) it means all the Long patches of that section share the same delay setting.
> 
> Make's sense to use one row!


Ok, I'm still a bit confused, but when I get a chance I'll go through it and figure out the best way to list it.


----------



## MarcusD

David Kudell said:


> Ok, I'm still a bit confused, but when I get a chance I'll go through it and figure out the best way to list it.


I'll edit the document so it makes sense. Sorry, I'm terrible at explaining things sometimes 😅

EDIT: Should make sense now. 🙂


----------



## Crevalation

Hi Everyone, 8dio Century Strings and Century Brass, does anyone know the appropriate negative delay for the longs and shorts? Any help will be appreciated. Many thanks.


----------



## mucknog

Quick question, maybe somebody can help.
I am on REAPER and there is a track function called 'Media playback offset'.
When you set this to a negative number, the media (midi) items are virtually placed ahead of time & then played back early.
The advantage is, that you don't introduce latency to your session, the disadvantage is, that midi, which is simply routed to the track or generated (by an arpeggiator) will not be delayed. Only midi that is in items on the track will be affected.
So my question is, how does it work in CUBASE? Are items on the track delayed or is the whole FX chain delayed? Is there additional latency introduced?
Thanks & Cheers


----------



## David Kudell

mucknog said:


> Quick question, maybe somebody can help.
> I am on REAPER and there is a track function called 'Media playback offset'.
> When you set this to a negative number, the media (midi) items are virtually placed ahead of time & then played back early.
> The advantage is, that you don't introduce latency to your session, the disadvantage is, that midi, which is simply routed to the track or generated (by an arpeggiator) will not be delayed. Only midi that is in items on the track will be affected.
> So my question is, how does it work in CUBASE? Are items on the track delayed or is the whole FX chain delayed? Is there additional latency introduced?
> Thanks & Cheers


Interesting question - generated MIDI wouldn't be delayed by the negative offset. In the case of something like electronic drum beats you probably don't need that delayed anyway. But if there's delay in the samples being triggered, you'd probably need to move that midi manually.


----------



## mucknog

David Kudell said:


> Interesting question - generated MIDI wouldn't be delayed by the negative offset. In the case of something like electronic drum beats you probably don't need that delayed anyway. But if there's delay in the samples being triggered, you'd probably need to move that midi manually.


Thank you David.
So CUBASE does it the same as REAPER?
Shifting MIDI items by the delay time and not introducing latency.


----------



## Crevalation

Crevalation said:


> Hi Everyone, 8dio Century Strings and Century Brass, does anyone know the appropriate negative delay for the longs and shorts? Any help will be appreciated. Many thanks.


I have tested a bit, the long and legato is around 100ms and shorts are around 75ms…. Happy to be corrected.


----------



## Crevalation

Crevalation said:


> I have tested a bit, the long and legato is around 100ms and shorts are around 75ms…. Happy to be corrected.


For Century Strings that is….


----------



## kwaselewski

Does anyone happen to know if the values for Berlin Woodwinds and Brass are accurate for the SINE Player versions? Perhaps @David Kudell knows?


----------



## ZeroZero

Another thread here , on the Steinberg Forum, has made the _excellent _suggestion that if Cubase Expression Maps were updated to include Delay compensation _per articulation_, this could, at least in many cases, obviate the need for maintaining one track per articulation, as contrasted with ideal one track per instrument using Expression maps and key switches. This woiuld of course make considerable notation benefits.

Cubase are at the moment gathering suggestions for their next update via a survey , please people, consider bringing Steinberg's development team's attentiion to these matters via this survey

Please consider replying to the survey - it's quick! 

Z


----------



## IFM

ZeroZero said:


> Another thread here , on the Steinberg Forum, has made the _excellent _suggestion that if Cubase Expression Maps were updated to include Delay compensation _per articulation_, this could, at least in many cases, obviate the need for maintaining one track per articulation, as contrasted with ideal one track per instrument using Expression maps and key switches. This woiuld of course make considerable notation benefits.
> 
> Cubase are at the moment gathering suggestions for their next update via a survey , please people, consider bringing Steinberg's development team's attentiion to these matters via this survey
> 
> Please consider replying to the survey - it's quick!
> 
> Z


I suggested that very thing...that and it needs to allow better organization.


----------



## ZeroZero

IFM said:


> I suggested that very thing...that and it needs to allow better organization.


Great! let's _ALL _do it!


----------



## blaggins

I did too, wrote them a tiny essay. I was pretty bummed when v12 came out with ZERO improvements to expressions maps. I don't actually see any reason to update from v11...


----------



## tonio_

Hey David, remember when I said that JXL Brass Tbns and Horns worked better with 40ms instead of 50? Well, after checking again, you were right, it's 50 for the Tbns. For the Horns 60 seems to hit the beat. Sorry!


----------



## RabornJohnson

Thank you @David Kudell for making this happen! 

Quick question for someone: Does anyone know if the recent update to the Berlin Strings Series (Berlin Strings, 1st Chair, Symphonic, etc.) changed the track offsets for those libraries? I was using some from the spreadsheet in a layered spiccatto template I'm creating and found that the delays listed weren't aligning correctly.


----------



## David Kudell

RabornJohnson said:


> Thank you @David Kudell for making this happen!
> 
> Quick question for someone: Does anyone know if the recent update to the Berlin Strings Series (Berlin Strings, 1st Chair, Symphonic, etc.) changed the track offsets for those libraries? I was using some from the spreadsheet in a layered spiccatto template I'm creating and found that the delays listed weren't aligning correctly.


It’s possible…for anything that used to be a Kontakt library the numbers are from Kontakt. If it was only ever a Sine library (Symphonic) of course the numbers are for Sine.

I don’t know if any of the ports or recent updates have caused any changes to the timings. They do mention things like “improved legato.” OT also have a few different legato types based on speed (fingered vs rapid legato) so that can complicate things. But what patch specifically was it? I can check it out.


----------



## RabornJohnson

Thanks, @David Kudell !
That makes a lot of sense. I haven't used the Kontakt versions of the Berlin Strings series - I use them all in Sine. The patches I'm talking about here are the spiccatto patch for any of the instruments (all instruments in Berlin Strings, Symphonic Strings, First Chair, etc.). When I use the delay shown in the spreadsheet the timing is way off, so I'm betting you're right about the difference being the result of using Sine instead of Kontakt.


----------



## David Kudell

tonio_ said:


> Hey David, remember when I said that JXL Brass Tbns and Horns worked better with 40ms instead of 50? Well, after checking again, you were right, it's 50 for the Tbns. For the Horns 60 seems to hit the beat. Sorry!


I put it all back to what I had before and checked it again - I think I was right the first time. It's very difficult to hear the difference between -40 and -50 regardless.


----------



## Dewdman42

Thanks so much for maintaining this DB!!


----------



## JyTy

For anyone working with VSL Synchron series, I know it was briefly mentioned in this thread as well and I searched through the forums, there are a few posts here and they're mentioning that those don't need negative delay (which is weird as you have said David)? Even if you check all of their official demos of the Synchron series on YouTube everything is on the grid? What is up with those? How do they work with other libs in terms of negative delay?

Asking because I have just gotten the entire Synchron orchestra, just didn't have any time yet to start testing it out or implementing it into my template.

+ For Abbey Road Two (not in the DB yet) - Was working with Legato patches yesterday. On lowest tightness setting the track delay seems to be -150ms.


----------



## David Kudell

When the new CSS 1.7 update goes out tomorrow I'll re-check all the delay times and post them.


----------



## Ruffian Price

JyTy said:


> + For Abbey Road Two (not in the DB yet) - Was working with Legato patches yesterday. On lowest tightness setting the track delay seems to be -150ms.


Spot on as this is the release where SA started documenting this:





Appassionata has even more details!


----------



## Zedcars

JyTy said:


> For anyone working with VSL Synchron series, I know it was briefly mentioned in this thread as well and I searched through the forums, there are a few posts here and they're mentioning that those don't need negative delay (which is weird as you have said David)? Even if you check all of their official demos of the Synchron series on YouTube everything is on the grid? What is up with those? How do they work with other libs in terms of negative delay?
> 
> Asking because I have just gotten the entire Synchron orchestra, just didn't have any time yet to start testing it out or implementing it into my template.


My experience with the Synchron Series is that some of the instruments do need NTD, or rather some articulations do in some situations (not necessarily the whole track). But I’ve found it very hard to pin down. The low brass needs a bit of pulling to the left if you have medium to fast passages. SSP legato passages also need looking at sometimes. I’ve not been able to nail this down completely so I just use my ears.


----------



## eric_w

Is SSS on the list? I only see Woodwinds


----------



## dewaard

Question, to which delay (category) would "thrill" type articulations belong (in for example Spitfire Symphonic Woodwinds)?


----------



## kwaselewski

dewaard said:


> Question, to which delay (category) would "thrill" type articulations belong (in for example Spitfire Symphonic Woodwinds)?


Do you mean category as in from the spreadsheet? There isn't one since most of those types of articulations don't work well with negative delay because they're usually phrase-based and the attacks are edited differently


----------



## dewaard

kwaselewski said:


> Do you mean category as in from the spreadsheet? There isn't one since most of those types of articulations don't work well with negative delay because they're usually phrase-based and the attacks are edited differently


I was indeed referring to the categories from the spreadsheet.

Ok! Thanks for clearing that up


----------



## ThatEwanGuy

New user of Cinematic Studio Brass here and I can only see negative delay times for legato and shorts, what about the muted, flutter, trills, double, marcato & rips patches. Do they not need a negative delay? What about the sustain patch when the legato is turned off, is a negative delay no longer needed?


----------



## kociol21

ThatEwanGuy said:


> New user of Cinematic Studio Brass here and I can only see negative delay times for legato and shorts, what about the muted, flutter, trills, double, marcato & rips patches. Do they not need a negative delay? What about the sustain patch when the legato is turned off, is a negative delay no longer needed?


Overall when using Cinematic Series libraries I tend to set my track delay to -30ms so offset for the shorts, and the rest works just in time. 

Sustain patch doesn't need negative delay. The only reason that legato needs it is that transitions are blurry and are messing with timing. There are no transitions in sustain patch so no need for NTD.


----------



## Jackal_King

I don't know if I missed it here in the thread, but anyone knows the negative delay setting for Albion One? Mainly the sustains for strings and woodwinds but if you also have the legato strings patches, that's fine, too.


----------



## TonalDynamics

@David Kudell I am curious why there are no delay values for any of the Strezov Choirs (there are many)? They are listed but 0 contributions as yet.

I am digging pretty deep into those libraries atm, and noting down the values myself. I can potentially share them after if anyone would find that useful...


----------



## David Kudell

TonalDynamics said:


> @David Kudell I am curious why there are no delay values for any of the Strezov Choirs (there are many)? They are listed but 0 contributions as yet.
> 
> I am digging pretty deep into those libraries atm, and noting down the values myself. I can potentially share them after if anyone would find that useful...


Sure, if you want to figure the times out then let me know. I currently am using -80 for pretty much everything Strezov choirs, as that works pretty well for the legatos. The initial sustain might be closer to around -60 or so. They seem pretty consistent, but I don't use them all the time so there might be some variation.


----------



## David Kudell

BBCSO users, there's a new set of numbers contributed by Gerard Hranek that are much different than the old ones. If some kind souls would like to check out the new numbers and let me know if they're accurate, that'd be appreciated. I'm currently too busy to go through and check everything myself.


----------



## David Kudell

Anyone who picked up the new Abbey Road bass drum library, let me know if you'd like to add the negative delays for it and I will give you access to the spreadsheet.


----------



## David Kudell

Added Metropolis Ark Ø! (It's on the last tab called "Tutti / Other"


----------



## Jpolla

WOW, I just found this. This is really helpful. thank you!


----------



## MarkKouznetsov

I've done a couple of electronic tracks with strong beat and to me it's evident that CSS 1.7 has a -170ms delay in terms of latency for a low latency legato. -150ms is terribly out of sync. Other tracks confirm this.

I don't usually work with click, but if you have a synth playing or some ticking textures, even the pretty slow lines lag behind (if you have a dense track it just adds up, ending up sounding sluggish).


----------



## dranck

Thanks for the database! Very, very helpful.


----------



## David Enos

David Kudell said:


> Yes the first note always plays sooner since there's no legato transition being played. So you need to move it a bit later in time. I just quantize the whole thing then move the first note. If you use a library a lot (your main string library for example) you'll quickly learn the amount to move it.
> 
> As for different dynamic layers having different delays, after you play your line, make all the notes the same velocity in the piano roll. This doesn't affect the loudness of the notes (that's done by your mod wheel). Then they will all play the same transition. For example, for CSS, make everything 127 and the delay will be -100ms across the board.


Hi, interesting post. Question then...what do you do with things like brass when perhaps you want Cuivré on one section, then soft horns on the next? With brass you need to use a lot of dynamic layers or else it doesn't sound realistic. In fact, many string libraries are also like this (I am a string player). LASS in particular comes to mind. When you use softer dynamics there is a nice warm tone, at the other end of the range is a more biting tone where you hear the bow attacking the strings more aggressively.


----------



## David Kudell

MarkKouznetsov said:


> I've done a couple of electronic tracks with strong beat and to me it's evident that CSS 1.7 has a -170ms delay in terms of latency for a low latency legato. -150ms is terribly out of sync. Other tracks confirm this.
> 
> I don't usually work with click, but if you have a synth playing or some ticking textures, even the pretty slow lines lag behind (if you have a dense track it just adds up, ending up sounding sluggish).


I’ll have to check this when I get a chance. The 150 number is from Alex himself. (The creator of CSS)


----------



## MarkKouznetsov

David Kudell said:


> I’ll have to check this when I get a chance. The 150 number is from Alex himself. (The creator of CSS)


I know. I guess, if you're writing very slow legatos, it fits. But the faster the line, the slower it gets, even if you raise velocities. It's really weird.


----------



## MusiquedeReve

Christoph18 said:


> I think there was a thread on this forum about a plugin that automatically adjusts the negative track delay for Cinematic Studio Strings in Logic. It would be so helpful if they developed this kind of plugin for Cubase as well, and made it possible to adjust the parameters for other libraries. (Like Hollywood Orchestra Opus in the future  ) Maybe there are some news regarding this. I must admit that I am not a very active member.
> 
> If someone developed this, I would gladly pay for the plugin.


I definitely would pay for a plugin like this for Hollywood Orchestra Opus


----------



## HCMarkus

EDIT: Audio Ollie says Nashville Scoring Strings uses 140ms for most articulations. Trills and Marcato 80ms, per Ollie.


----------



## David Kudell

HCMarkus said:


> Audio Ollie says Nashville Scoring Strings uses 140ms for most articulations. Tremelo is 80ms, per Ollie.


Thanks, updated.


----------



## HCMarkus

David Kudell said:


> Thanks, updated.


Nashville Scoring Strings revision... I checked the technical video again, 'cause I was second guessing myself. Confirmed: Everything 140 ms *except Trills and Marcato offset 80ms*. Sorry for the misinformation.


----------



## David Kudell

Added:

Salu (strings, choir, kannel/harp/piano)
Abbey Road Low Percussion


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen

Jasper writes this about Pacific strings (see the section "DAW / Technical" here):


----------



## MusiquedeReve

Any chance the EW has a negative delay database for HOOPUS that they could release to us?


----------



## David Kudell

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Jasper writes this about Pacific strings (see the section "DAW / Technical" here):


Added


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen

David Kudell said:


> Added


You're the best, David, thanks for doing this work.

I always have this thread open in the browser when composing.


----------



## David Kudell

Who of you will rise to the challenge to contribute numbers for any these essential libraries?

Spitfire
Eric Whitacre Choir
Chamber Strings
Studio Strings
Studio Brass
Studio Winds
Albion III Icini
Albion V
Albion Neo
BBCSO Percussion

Cinesamples
Monster Low Winds
Voices of War

Strezov
Afflatus
The Percussion libraries
Choirs

Orchestral Tools
Berlin Inspire 1 & 2

Project Sam
Symphobia II
Lumina
Pandora

Musical Sampling
Soaring, Adventure, Trailer Strings
Trailer Brass
Adventure Brass

Vienna
Everything

Audiobro
Genesis
LA Scoring Strings
Modern Scoring Brass

East West
Everything

8Dio
Everything

Heavyocity
Damage 1 Percussion
Vento

Performance Samples
PerfPerc

Soundiron
Apocalypse Percussion
Mercury, Venus, Mars choirs

Anything else


----------



## David Enos

David Kudell said:


> Who of you will rise to the challenge to contribute numbers for any these essential libraries?
> 
> Spitfire
> Eric Whitacre Choir
> Chamber Strings
> Studio Strings
> Studio Brass
> Studio Winds
> Albion III Icini
> Albion V
> Albion Neo
> BBCSO Percussion
> 
> Cinesamples
> Monster Low Winds
> Voices of War
> 
> Strezov
> Afflatus
> The Percussion libraries
> Choirs
> 
> Orchestral Tools
> Berlin Inspire 1 & 2
> 
> Project Sam
> Symphobia II
> Lumina
> Pandora
> 
> Musical Sampling
> Soaring, Adventure, Trailer Strings
> Trailer Brass
> Adventure Brass
> 
> Vienna
> Everything
> 
> Audiobro
> Genesis
> LA Scoring Strings
> Modern Scoring Brass
> 
> East West
> Everything
> 
> 8Dio
> Everything
> 
> Heavyocity
> Damage 1 Percussion
> Vento
> 
> Performance Samples
> PerfPerc
> 
> Soundiron
> Apocalypse Percussion
> Mercury, Venus, Mars choirs
> 
> Anything else


I just used Spitfire Chamber Strings on a project and vln 2 delay is wrong, it's -140


----------



## David Kudell

David Enos said:


> I just used Spitfire Chamber Strings on a project and vln 2 delay is wrong, it's -140


Good to know, but it's also missing 90% of the articulations too.


----------



## David Enos

David Kudell said:


> Good to know, but it's also missing 90% of the articulations too.


Right. At some point I'll probably go through them all, if/when I do I'll share them


----------



## filipjonathan

Musical Sampling Gabrielle Flute legato is -50ms for all patches. @David Kudell


----------



## kwaselewski

David Kudell said:


> Who of you will rise to the challenge to contribute numbers for any these essential libraries?
> 
> Spitfire
> Eric Whitacre Choir
> Chamber Strings
> Studio Strings
> Studio Brass
> Studio Winds
> Albion III Icini
> Albion V
> Albion Neo
> BBCSO Percussion
> 
> Cinesamples
> Monster Low Winds
> Voices of War
> 
> Strezov
> Afflatus
> The Percussion libraries
> Choirs
> 
> Orchestral Tools
> Berlin Inspire 1 & 2
> 
> Project Sam
> Symphobia II
> Lumina
> Pandora
> 
> Musical Sampling
> Soaring, Adventure, Trailer Strings
> Trailer Brass
> Adventure Brass
> 
> Vienna
> Everything
> 
> Audiobro
> Genesis
> LA Scoring Strings
> Modern Scoring Brass
> 
> East West
> Everything
> 
> 8Dio
> Everything
> 
> Heavyocity
> Damage 1 Percussion
> Vento
> 
> Performance Samples
> PerfPerc
> 
> Soundiron
> Apocalypse Percussion
> Mercury, Venus, Mars choirs
> 
> Anything else


I can start going through the spitfire stuff as I get time and when I get some numbers I'll send you a pm


----------



## madfloyd

Does the VSL stuff really need track delay?


----------



## madfloyd

Question for anyone that cares to share their opinion

I notice that Berlin Brass is represented in the spreadsheet in it's Kontakt form (rather than Sine) but Junkie Brass is represented. This gives me the impression that people prefer JunkieXL Brass over Berlin. I've never used either but really like Berlin strings (and woodwinds) and am wondering which of the two brass libraries would be recommended.


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen

madfloyd said:


> Question for anyone that cares to share their opinion
> 
> I notice that Berlin Brass is represented in the spreadsheet in it's Kontakt form (rather than Sine) but Junkie Brass is represented. This gives me the impression that people prefer JunkieXL Brass over Berlin. I've never used either but really like Berlin strings (and woodwinds) and am wondering which of the two brass libraries would be recommended.


It’s probably best to start a new thread about it and keep this one for handling of the delay times.

One tip, and I don’t mean this in a condescending way at all, but Google can be used to search on one site only, i.e. this one. Try this:

jxl berlin brass site:vi-control.net

Go into Tools in Google Search and select Past Year as time period. This is because a lot of the older posts about Berlin Brass are about how it can’t go above f, some even said mf. Since then however, OT recorded a new top layer for Berlin Brass. I think it’s ff in most cases and fff for some of the solo instruments.

Anyway, that’s it 🙂


----------



## madfloyd

Thank you!


----------



## David Kudell

madfloyd said:


> Question for anyone that cares to share their opinion
> 
> I notice that Berlin Brass is represented in the spreadsheet in it's Kontakt form (rather than Sine) but Junkie Brass is represented. This gives me the impression that people prefer JunkieXL Brass over Berlin. I've never used either but really like Berlin strings (and woodwinds) and am wondering which of the two brass libraries would be recommended.


The reason for the representation in the spreadsheet is just because I had the Kontakt version of Berlin Brass in my template at the time I made it and hadn't switched over to the Sine version yet. However, I have switched the trumpets to the Sine version already and the additional FF layer is much improved over the Kontakt version. Plus, I created a custom mic merge using 5 different mics which sounds much better than the Kontakt one, yet uses 1/5 of the RAM. I haven't tested if there is any difference of the delays times between the Kontakt and Sine versions.

Tom Holkenborg Brass (JXL Brass) was the first Sine release so there's no Kontakt version available for that.


----------



## madfloyd

I appreciate the reply, David!


----------



## HitEmTrue

Learned so much in this thread!


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## Draco Solis

David Kudell said:


> Who of you will rise to the challenge to contribute numbers for any these essential libraries?
> 
> Strezov
> Choirs
> 
> East West
> Everything


I will attempt to find something with Hollywood OPUS, and perhaps Wotan and Freyja afterwards. Even if it might not be perfect, it'll be something, at least.
I can try DMing any results I get, or send them whatever other way works best.


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