# What's your workflow when doing a midi mockup?



## muk (Aug 3, 2010)

Hello everybody

I'd love to know what are the steps you take when doing a midi mockup. I tend to do all composing tasks with paper and pencil only and then type it into Sibelius when finished (this step is only for readability causes :D). But now, how do you proceed? Do you export a midi file from Sibelius, import it to your DAW and then tweak the midi informations or do you play in everything with a midicontroller?
If you play it, how do you start? With the bass, the melody, another voice? Do you use keyswitches for articulation changes during playing (this can get difficult very fast, at least for me)? Does anybody use a simple piano patch no matter which instrument your playing in and afterwards change to the appropriate sample instrument (say violin)? Do you play everything straight without rubato and tempo-changes (using your DAWs metronome) and then adjust the tempoline? Or do you play it freely without ever using the DAWs tempotrack and quantising?
So generally, what's your workflow step by step when creating a midi mockup? This is certainly a pretty individual thing but I'm sure I can learn a lot from you users over here


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## Ashermusic (Aug 3, 2010)

First of all, let's define "MIDI mockup." In my mind a MIDI mockup is when you take an existing work, even if it is your own on score paper, and then recreate it using software instruments and MIDI. So by that definition, with the exception of some difficult contrapuntal or harmonic passages that I first write on score paper, I am not doing MIDI mockups but composing with MIDI, which is what I suspect you are really asking. 

Yes, I do usually start with piano and when it is correct in terms of my thematic material and creating hit points, I print it out and start to work on orchestration with some keyswitching for articulations or Kontakt program bank changes, some light mixing and automating.

Then I get serious about adding CCs, and plugins for the mix, although final automation and mixing is usually done after I have composed all the cues, unless I am delivering as I go as I did on my last project rather than delivering a built PT session, which is what I generally do for a film.

Of course, early on I have basically assembled my sound palate for the score and if it needs to be different for specific cues, I have to deal with that first.


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## Narval (Aug 3, 2010)

That's just your personal definition. Everyone here knows what a midi mock up is. When a parrot imitates _his master's voice_, that's a mock up. When you don't have an instrument and try to imitate its sound by some other means, that's a mock up. When those other means are midi means, that's a midi mock up. And since you're so much into semantics and definitions, you may also want to look into the difference between palate and palette. And no that's not a typo. How do you like to be patronized btw?

Strictly on the "how" question, I like to keep the procedures separate. Composing is taking place in the mind, notation on paper, playing on keyboard, recording, editing, and mixing on computer.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 3, 2010)

Narval @ Tue Aug 03 said:


> That's just your personal definition. Everyone here knows what a midi mock up is. When a parrot imitates _his master's voice_, that's a mock up. When you don't have an instrument and try to imitate its sound by some other means, that's a mock up. When those other means are midi means, that's a midi mock up. And since you're so much into semantics and definitions, you may also want to look into the difference between palate and palette. And no that's not a typo. How do you like to be patronized btw?
> 
> Strictly on the "how" question, I like to keep the procedures separate. Composing is taking place in the mind, notation on paper, playing on keyboard, recording, editing, and mixing on computer.



I believe if you read what I wrote, I started my definition of a MIDI mockup with "In my mind a MIDI mockup is."

"Everyone here knows" is assuming facts that are not in evidence, which is why I always start this kind of discussion by defining the terms so that the person I am discussing the subject with are not talking past each other because we define things differently.

And you are a person I have concluded is simply not worth discussing anything with, so do us both a favor by not responding to my posts and I will do the same for you, OK?


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## Narval (Aug 3, 2010)

So very pretentious of you, but considering your weirdo definitions and views, I take your attempt to insult as a compliment. Of course, feel free not to respond to whatever you don't find worthy of your pre(ten)tious responses. Just as everyone else, I am of course free to respond to anything I will find worthy of responding. Like confusions between palates and palettes, or funny definitions of well established things like midi mock ups.


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## jlb (Aug 3, 2010)

Jay don't rise to this guy. He has issues...

jlb


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## gsilbers (Aug 3, 2010)

if it's a midi mockup and no orhestration then the process is more of a mechanical one.
Load all the instrument and articulation u are going to use 
as it is in the score and start laying down those notes.
U can play them if u can or u can use the step input that daws have.


What else are u interesting in finding out?


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## Narval (Aug 3, 2010)

Guy, how do you do it? In detail please. Be as generous as you are masterful. (says the fox to the crow)


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## JohnG (Aug 3, 2010)

I think for most people it varies, depending on whether the final work is to be played all live, all samples, or some of each. 

Plus, it depends on the approval process; if you're going to have to be approved by a bunch of non-musicians and / or people you don't know and / or their wives / girlfriends, I believe there's no choice but to make it sound "real good." These days that's defined as practically broadcast-ready.

If you have a score that needs tunes, you can play them on anything you play, or hum / think them up and write them down.

When I'm writing more rhythm and complex harmonies, I definitely like to play something real time into a sequencer, then kind of add on to the harmonies.

But I do think it makes a great deal of difference what kind of music it is and how the final score is going to be realised.


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## Narval (Aug 3, 2010)

jlb @ Tue Aug 03 said:


> Jay don't rise to this guy. He has issues...
> 
> jlb


None as serious as yours pal. Sheesh so many crows around here. And so little cheese...


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## Hannes_F (Aug 3, 2010)

muk @ Tue Aug 03 said:


> If you play it, how do you start? With the bass, the melody, another voice? Do you use keyswitches for articulation changes during playing (this can get difficult very fast, at least for me)? Does anybody use a simple piano patch no matter which instrument your playing in and afterwards change to the appropriate sample instrument (say violin)? Do you play everything straight without rubato and tempo-changes (using your DAWs metronome) and then adjust the tempoline? Or do you play it freely without ever using the DAWs tempotrack and quantising?
> So generally, what's your workflow step by step when creating a midi mockup? This is certainly a pretty individual thing but I'm sure I can learn a lot from you users over here



muk, I tried to link you to a detailled step-by-step explanation how I recorded midi violin phrases in different runs. But I think the forum (NS) deleted the thread for some reason ... doh.

When I find the time and you are interested I can try to recreate it within the next days.


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## JohnG (Aug 3, 2010)

one thing -- I try not to write too much on piano, because when I do, I write piano music. So if that's going to be the goal, of course it's ok. But because presumably of my own limitations I find it much easier to write for organ / choir / strings / brass and then translate to orchestra instead of writing on the piano.

Plus, as many composers and arrangers have noted in the past, dissonance in brass sounds very different from dissonance in strings or on the piano, or other sections. 

So a long way of saying that I personally don't write as much as I used to on the piano.


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 3, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Tue Aug 03 said:


> First of all, let's define "MIDI mockup." In my mind a MIDI mockup is when you take an existing work, even if it is your own on score paper, and then recreate it using software instruments and MIDI. So by that definition, with the exception of some difficult contrapuntal or harmonic passages that I first write on score paper, I am not doing MIDI mockups but composing with MIDI, which is what I suspect you are really asking.



That's a good clarification point, because what you explained is what I always thought a mockup was, but recently the word has been tossed around a bit and I wasn't sure myself anymore.


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## Hannes_F (Aug 3, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Tue Aug 03 said:


> First of all, let's define "MIDI mockup." In my mind a MIDI mockup is when you take an existing work, even if it is your own on score paper, and then recreate it using software instruments and MIDI.



Hmm ... I always thought a 'mockup' would be a model or dummy (by the meaning of the word). So a MIDI mockup could also be a (any) composition, no matter how planned or improvised, done with the help of MIDI and samples where some or all of the sounds are intended to replaced by live instruments, right?


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## Hannes_F (Aug 3, 2010)

Narval @ Wed Aug 04 said:


> Clearly, master Bacos is unwilling to share anything from the overabundance of his art, preoccupied as he is with things of more importance, like semantics and personal vendettas. Truly a shame. (says the cricket to the ant)



I think that is not true because on the VSL website he shares video demonstrations that show which articulations are used and where, also you get a clue of cc riding. So it is clearly a false statment to say that Guy would be unwilling to share anything.

However what I am puzzled about is that I usually try to ride controls much more, so I am wondering how much of the dynamics are volume automations. This question also arises for the examples Jay Bacal provides. And then I am mostly using download versions ...

What would really be helpful for VSL would be a one-line phrase _per library_, but really completely demonstrated. How is the player set up, how the matrix, what is (preferably) done per mouse, what (preferably) per keyboard, how and when in the process are keyswitches entered, what happens then in the mixing stage. Nothing fancy, just a handful articulations, but fully explained.

Maybe somebody from VSL is watching here, who knows.


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## muk (Aug 4, 2010)

Thanks for all the comments. Hannes and Guy, I was actually hoping you would chime in when I started the topic  Hannes if you do have the time, please recreate that post at NS, it would be most helpful.


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## muk (Aug 7, 2010)

Just a little clarification on the topic: I was curious about the tecnical part of setting up a mockup. Not how you do compose (of course that too would be an interesting question) but rather how you convert your composition on paper into sound via DAW and sound libraries. In fact just the thing Hannes asked about the VSL libraries in the post before.
Let's say you have composed four bars of music (e.g. string quartet). How do you proceed? Add four midi tracks in your DAW, play it in using your keyboard one by one. And here my question starts. Do you already use string sounds when playing it in or do you use piano sounds first (because you don't have to worry about articulations )? When do you add keyswitches? On the go when playing in or afterwards? Do you add expression in a different take using your fader or do you draw it using your mouse?
I was asking about (as detailed as possible, preferably step by step :D ) descriptions of how you'd do a mockup of a such a snippet of music.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 7, 2010)

muk @ Sat Aug 07 said:


> Just a little clarification on the topic: I was curious about the tecnical part of setting up a mockup. Not how you do compose (of course that too would be an interesting question) but rather how you convert your composition on paper into sound via DAW and sound libraries. In fact just the thing Hannes asked about the VSL libraries in the post before.
> Let's say you have composed four bars of music (e.g. string quartet). How do you proceed? Add four midi tracks in your DAW, play it in using your keyboard one by one. And here my question starts. Do you already use string sounds when playing it in or do you use piano sounds first (because you don't have to worry about articulations )? When do you add keyswitches? On the go when playing in or afterwards? Do you add expression in a different take using your fader or do you draw it using your mouse?
> I was asking about (as detailed as possible, preferably step by step :D ) descriptions of how you'd do a mockup of a such a snippet of music.



In your example, I would open 4 software instruments, load in a solo violin, a second solo violin, solo viola, and solo cello and play the parts in individually. I would keyswitch or use program changes in Kpontakt instrument banks as I go and add some expression using a pedal also, although frequently I will have to edit that later with the mouse.


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## Hannes_F (Aug 7, 2010)

muk @ Sat Aug 07 said:


> Do you already use string sounds when playing it in or do you use piano sounds first (because you don't have to worry about articulations )?



I might use piano sounds for composing but not for the actual recording. One reason is that each library has its own latency insofar as notes have individual ramps at the beginning.

First I will practise playing the part with the keyboard and moving the mousewheel at the same time (or alternatively a graphical tablet for two controls at a time. But when it comes to recording I will just use the keyboard and concentrate on the rhythm which is way better for me than correcting that too much mousewise after the fact. For CCs I will take a second or third pass depending on how much I want to use.



> When do you add keyswitches? On the go when playing in or afterwards?



For me mostly afterwards. 

But an alternative actually is to start the metronome and record yourself repeating small figures freely which you can then mount together the best parts later either as midi or as audio file. In that case I will use keyswitches and modwheel/tablet on the fly ... just keep the record rolling and try out what sounds best, then usually take the last snippet of it.



> Do you add expression in a different take using your fader or do you draw it using your mouse?



I need realtime feedback for expression, so I mostly use mouswheel or tablet in realtime.



> I was asking about (as detailed as possible, preferably step by step :D ) descriptions of how you'd do a mockup of a such a snippet of music.



Sorry I do not have the time for the other example now but I tried to describe what I do here.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Aug 7, 2010)

Narval @ Tue Aug 03 said:


> Clearly, master Bacos is unwilling to share anything from the overabundance of his art, preoccupied as he is with things of more importance, like semantics and personal vendettas. Truly a shame. (says the cricket to the ant)



Narval, if you were more preocuppied with contributing, rather than antagonazing posters, I believe that your presence here would be more appreciated...


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## synergy543 (Aug 8, 2010)

Narval @ Tue Aug 03 said:


> Clearly, master Bacos is unwilling to share anything from the overabundance of his art, preoccupied as he is with things of more importance, like semantics and personal vendettas. Truly a shame. (says the cricket to the ant)


Narval, I will also say that you are very wrong in your accusation. Guy has shared more than most people on this forum and attacking someone is not an advisable way to encourage them to share with you. 

I will tell you one thing about his secrets, that although obvious, might be the most helpful of all. As you can clearly hear, in addition to whatever magic secrets he may have, there is no hiding the shear amount of hard work and effort he puts into his projects. So maybe the tricks and answers that you seek, may be right in front of you, in the details if you listen carefully to his work.


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 10, 2010)

To answer the question, and I'm certainly not avoiding it, but it's pretty much as Greg said, a lot of hard work. Without sounding too philosophical I could sum it up with this story I vaguely remember, hopefully I won't mess it up too much.

There was this old man who one day said to his 3 sons: "I will tell you a secret, I have burried a treasure in the land behind the house. When I die, it will be yours, but you must find it first."

And one day the old man died and immediately the 3 sons each grabbed a shovel and started digging. The soil was hard and difficult to work. They dug day and night for days, weeks and months, but they found nothing, so they concluded there is no treasure on this land. 

One day they woke up, looked out the window, and saw behind the house, flowers everywhere, of all colors and variety covering the entire land. It was a beautiful sight!

It was all that digging, stirring, tossing, raking of the soil that turned it into the most healthy soil, and thus the paradise of flowers was the treasure.


And by the way, who's Narval?


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## Narval (Aug 11, 2010)

@ Patrick de Caumette & synergy543
There is no accusation, no attacking, and no antagonizing. There's only messages. What you make of them, that's up to you.

@ Guy Bacos
There's no old man, no sons, and no treasure. Also, no Narval and no Guy Bacos. Only messages. But, true, some messages may take the form of a story. Here is a funny one (which some may call tragic, some may call comic, some may call tragicomic, and some may call whatever they call it) -

Once there was a frog trying to outsize an ox. That was the end of the poor little thing. 
Moral: Self-inflating looks silly and ends badly.


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## jlb (Aug 11, 2010)

Narval,

a) Guy is a terrific virtuoso pianist and has also written some very moving work. I think you should be showing more respect. Also to Jay. Your attacks only highlight your own insecurities/inadequacies.

b) Why don't you take your finger out of your ass and go and write some music?

jlb


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## lee (Aug 11, 2010)

I´ve heard that the best way to stay on topic is to ignore everything that isnt about the subject written by the op. Easy as that, IMO.

muk: I think the workflow varies very much from person to person. For example, depending on the composers keyboard playing skills, it may be easier for some people to write the music using only the pianoroll, for some people playing the music in realtime and adding cc-movement using envelopes or recording them live in a second session. Some people like to record both the notes and the cc simultaneosly, maybe even keyswitches at the same time!!

Myself, I try to play as much as I can live. Why? Because it feels so good! And it also adds some organic quality that I think takes a lot of work to achieve using the tools in the pianoroll.

I think Jay Bacal (correct me if I`m wrong) doesnt play anything live, but his results are really amazing. Maybe he could chime in here, and tell you more about his workflow if he has time.

/Johnny


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## Narval (Aug 11, 2010)

@ jlb

a) We all have our own (mis)perceptions, (mis)interpretations, and definitions. For example: when someone asks "What's your workflow when doing a midi mockup?", responding it first with complete disregard (while preferring to address one's own personal issues), and then with biblical parables, is, to my (mis)perception, (mis)interpretation, and definition - disrespectful.

b) My finger says have a nice day.

---

@ muk
Sorry for being too short in my first reply, here is my workflow a bit more detailed: 
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... 912#229912
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... 953#229953


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## jlb (Aug 12, 2010)

Narval, write some fantastic music, post it on here. Let the music do the talking, then we might take your comments seriously. Money talks and bullshit walks...

jlb


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## Ashermusic (Aug 12, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Thu Aug 12 said:


> Ignoring unnecessary comments, I might of omitted to to thank the ones supporting me here or discouraging childish attitudes. Thanks Jlb, Synergie, Patrick and Hannes.



+1.


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## Jimbo 88 (Aug 12, 2010)

This thread brings another issue to mind for me. I like to compose with my DAW, and do my "mock-up" as i go along. If i'm doing something that doesn't have a harsh dead line I like to create a Score in Sibelius--so I can see parts better and tweak the score--and hopefully it will get played live someday. The trouble i have is going between my DAW (Sonar) and Sibelius. Way too much busy work. It is a pain once i start tweaking in one program , then have to go back to the other program to make the same changes.

So my question is..how do most of you guys handle this issue? Are you happy with the notation in your DAW? Does anyone rewire their DAW with Notation program?


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## Ashermusic (Aug 12, 2010)

The notation is Logic is more than adequate. I have done lots of cues for movies and TV with it for myself and other composers. While it is not as elegant as Finale or Sibelius and I certainly would not want to try to do Penderecki with it  it is very capable, although idiosyncratic.

I think my next book is going to be "Printing Cues and Lead Sheets with Logic Pro 9's Score Editor."


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 16, 2010)

The way I like to work is, work a bit on one section then a bit on another, and if there are 10 main sections, I go back and forth between them until I'm satisfied, I may go back and forth, 10, 50 or 100 times. The most recent section makes the other ones look bad, so I must constantly go back and forth until one section doesn't sound better than the other, or all equally good.


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## germancomponist (Aug 16, 2010)

Never do a midi mockup on a notation software! 

Use a sequencer like Cubase or Logic, load first the instruments you want to use and then compose while playing on your keyboard! 

Why?

Because 99% of all libraries can`t play the notes as they are in your head when you compose....!


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## Angel (Aug 16, 2010)

So what do the people do that do midi mockups of existing scores?
"If you compose with samples you have to compose for samples"... that's surely half the truth.
But there are enough people who can make their libs sound nearly the way they want.


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## germancomponist (Aug 16, 2010)

If you want to get the best result you have to write for your libs. This was and is the truth!


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