# The genius of Stravinsky- discuss!



## dcoscina (Mar 28, 2021)

After a long break from Igor's music, it was nice to re-acquaint myself with his cannon. Listened to The Fairy's Kiss (LSO, Robert Craft cond. so pretty faithful). Lovely work. I remember watching a documentary about Stravinsky and towards its conclusion, they tracked some of this piece to it. Quite poignant and poetic, as Craft recollected being present when the great composer passed on. 

He had such a diverse body of work and he worked well in various genres and settings. His chamber works are quite lovely. I am fond of his Symphony in Three Movements, and of course the usual suspects. 

How 'bout everyone else?


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## Rob (Mar 28, 2021)

Love pretty much everything from him... with a soft spot for the octet and the instrumental miniatures that I performed as a flutist. His rationality in the use of melodic/harmonic material is phenomenal.


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## Dear Villain (Mar 28, 2021)

I have a picture by his grave when I was at a music conference in my uni days, and although I wasn't overly familiar with his work at the time, I'll never forget the sensation that came over me, being that close to a musical titan. I swear I composed with more urgency and competence upon my return home!


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## proggermusic (Mar 28, 2021)

Recently I listened through Firebird and Petroushka several times each, they're both so damn brilliant. Listening to a lot of Stravinsky and Ravel over the last few months has made me realize that I tend to really love music from ballets. I don't generally enjoy seeing ballets, oddly. But hearing the music as the soundtrack to whatever's actually going on around me (running? driving? Zelda?) hits me really powerfully.


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## dcoscina (Mar 28, 2021)

proggermusic said:


> Recently I listened through Firebird and Petroushka several times each, they're both so damn brilliant. Listening to a lot of Stravinsky and Ravel over the last few months has made me realize that I tend to really love music from ballets. I don't generally enjoy seeing ballets, oddly. But hearing the music as the soundtrack to whatever's actually going on around me (running? driving? Zelda?) hits me really powerfully.


I also admire Bartok’s stage works as well for the same reason.


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## b_elliott (Mar 28, 2021)

Up to last year I had not paid much attention to his Petrushka. That is until I watched this particular film production with the Bolshoi Ballet. 

It was exactly here where Igor's ballet music burst forth with life to my eyes and ears. 

I've seen it numerous times now, including making a special show of it over Xmas to savor its aesthetics. To me it highlights how more wonderful music can be when the other Arts are added (dance, costumes, film, acting, directing...)



While the pandemic roars onwards, I wanted to share that link so others can see how mind blowing Igor and company really were. 
Cheers, B


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## CT (Mar 28, 2021)

I love his Mass, and Requiem Canticles. Extraordinary stuff.

Oh, and this is a great lesser-known gem from his earlier period.


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## tmhuud (Mar 28, 2021)

I love everything Stravinsky. Talk about an innovator. He was a true ‘shaper of things to come.’ 









How Stravinsky's Rite of Spring has shaped 100 years of music


Piece first performed in Paris exactly 100 years ago emblematic of era of great scientific, artistic and intellectual ferment




www.theguardian.com


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## dcoscina (Mar 28, 2021)

The sophistication in his orchestration floors me. I liked that he tried different things out even in his twilight years. He was never content to stick with one compositional doctrine


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## turnerofwheels (Mar 28, 2021)

tmhuud said:


> I love everything Stravinsky. Talk about an innovator. He was a true ‘shaper of things to come.’
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whenever someone raves about Star Wars I want to hand them a copy of Rite of Spring. Tatooine, Endor battles, so much in there directly comes from it
I was listening to Petrushka lately and the sections with the ostinatos sound very reminiscent of some of John Adams orchestral minimalism from much later even if the focus is different.
Definitely an innovator.


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## CT (Mar 28, 2021)

You know thinking about it, Stravinsky is one of the most exciting examples for me of echoes of a past composer showing up in new music. I absolutely love when I hear some wild rhythmic stuff clearly informed by his music, for instance, and have to smirk and say, ah yeah, there's Igor....


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## wsimpson (Mar 28, 2021)

I am just getting back into digital music and am working on performance of Rite of Spring on Spitfire BBC Pro Orchestra. I am sure you are all probably sick of talking about that piece, but it is a great way to learn Cubase, articulations and great orchestration.


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## CT (Mar 28, 2021)

wsimpson said:


> I am just getting back into digital music and am working on performance of Rite of Spring on Spitfire BBC Pro Orchestra. I am sure you are all probably sick of talking about that piece, but it is a great way to learn Cubase, articulations and great orchestration.


Good luck. Not an easy undertaking with any library!


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## gussunkri (Mar 29, 2021)

I feel disqualified, because all I ever listen to is Rite of spring. I love to listen to it while following along with the score. I feel like I am finding new things every time. It is not that I dislike other works by Stravinsky. It is more that I need to take one step at a time and I’m still not finished with Rite.


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## mikeh-375 (Mar 29, 2021)

Love all the works mentioned but folks let's not forget the joyous Pulcinella. I wish Stravinsky would have given us more giga scores like the ballets, his orchestration is up there with the best of 'em.


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## cmillar (Mar 29, 2021)

A must watch.... the 'Rite of Spring' ballet with the original choreography re-created by the Joffrey Ballet.

We can witness the amazing piece of art it was. When you see the choreography, it could have been created yesterday....or in the future. Like the music, the dance was totally cutting-edge for the day.



I also love listening to 'Apollo','Agon', 'Jeu du Cartes', more music he composed for ballets.


*** Can you imagine how incredible it must have been to witness Debussy and Stravinsky in the same room playing through his score of 'Rite of Spring'?***


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## tmhuud (Mar 29, 2021)

gussunkri said:


> I feel disqualified, because all I ever listen to is Rite of spring. I love to listen to it while following along with the score. I feel like I am finding new things every time. It is not that I dislike other works by Stravinsky. It is more that I need to take one step at a time and I’m still not finished with Rite.



Oh- but that’s the joy of life. Finding new things all the time. Eventually you branch out. Enjoy TROS, There is a lot there to absorb.


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## b_elliott (Mar 29, 2021)

While I think of it: It was only from Frank Zappa that I learned of one of Igor's late ballets, Agon.
Zappa used Igor's melody Galliarde in his own tune. After FZ's showcase, I did my own digging.

Turns out Igor was at a low point in his life despite all his masterpieces; in fact he was in tears over feeling "washed-up". Regardless, he went on to produce yet another masterwork, Agon (NYC Ballet performance).

It was not lost to me that amongst ballet performers, this being a favorite.

I'd encourage a listen to Agon as well as FZ.


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## mikeh-375 (Mar 29, 2021)

this documentary by Tony Palmer is highly recommended. Packed full of footage and talk by the great man. My favourite moment is when he is in a car in L.A. driving past a liquor store and he asks to stop and get some whisky.


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## re-peat (Mar 29, 2021)

gussunkri said:


> (...) and I’m still not finished with the Rite.



No one ever is or will be, I believe.

What I find even more mind-boggling than Debussy and Stravinsky having a run-through of “The Sacre” together, is Stravinsky all on his own, in his room with his battered upright piano, _writing_ the piece. Think about it. Before “The Sacre” _nothing existed_ that pointed at the possibility of "The Sacre" (as a musical achievement) ever becoming a reality. The only thing that existed was whatever order and chaos was brooding in Stravinsky’s mind.

The more I think about it (and I've been thinking about it most of my life), the less I can grasp the size and scale of the mental capacity and the musical talent involved in this creation. I mean, just think about the blank manuscript pages that slowly get filled with notes, beams and markings: the process of “The Sacre”, as it existed (in whatever shape) in Stravinsky’s brain, being transferred onto paper.

Me, I just can’t go there. My musical ability is too limited for that. I have the same thing with Bach and Beethoven, and some of Zappa’s material: I recognize (and can fully enjoy) its freakish, unique and extraordinary musical beauty, depth and power, but I can’t “plug into” the moment of its creation the way I can with most other music. That, to me, distinguishes genius from merely great or good.

That, somehow, a human brain can generate all those multi-layered ideas, many of them without precedent in music history, keep control over all the newly invented, complex shifting rhythms and polyrhythms, motifs and harmonies — without, and this is particularly remarkable (and rarely mentioned), _ever exaggerating the sophistication or cleverness of the musical material_, which is what a lesser composer would have done —, somehow arrive at the undescribable perfect orchestration of all the material, and then organize all that into a piece that has abstract beauty, emotional beauty, musical coherence & logic, and that, despite being profoundly revolutionary (in the fullest most radical sense of the word) also fits perfectly into its claimed slot in musical evolution. See, as a musical organism, "The Sacre" only obeys its own system of laws, yet at the same time never questions or abandons the musical "jurisprudence" that preceded it. I think that accounts in no small part for the work's lasting impact and ongoing mesmerizing mystery.

That said, my favourite Stravinsky music — the one I listen to most often, that is — is the chamber and small-scale music which would start occurring a few years after "The Sacre": the "Octuor", "L’Histoire du Soldat", the "Concertino for 12 Instruments", "Dumbarton Oaks", "Ragtime" and "Tango", the "Ebony Concerto", the "Symphonies for Wind Instruments", "Rénard", "Les Noces", "Movements For Piano & Orchestra", the "Septet", "Apollon Musagète", …
And of his three famous ‘Russian’ ballets, the one I spend most time with is “Petrushka”. (I've just checked my music library: so far I've bought 19 versions of "Petrushka". Can't get enough of it.)

If the history of classical music can be compared to a suspension bridge, then Stravinsky is, in my view, one of its three pillars, the other two being Bach and Beethoven.

__


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## paulwr (Mar 29, 2021)

re-peat said:


> No one ever is or will be, I believe.
> 
> What I find even more mind-boggling than Debussy and Stravinsky having a run-through of “The Sacre” together, is Stravinsky all on his own, in his room with his battered upright piano, _writing_ the piece. Think about it. Before “The Sacre” _nothing existed_ that pointed at the possibility of "The Sacre" (as a musical achievement) ever becoming a reality. The only thing that existed was whatever order and chaos was brooding in Stravinsky’s mind.
> 
> ...


While the amount of invention you can hold in your head at once with detail long enough to get it notated (or input) is a key part of 'musical genious' in my view, it does help us all with our confidence to realize it didn't all pour out of these guys at once with no revisions! They had to 'try things out, too. Persistence and willingness to try new things can take you far! Not much value to be scared off by the masters. A friend of mine told me of a Youtube post for an incredible virtuosic violin performance in which was said "I don't even play violin and I'm quitting!" Funny as hell, but let's keep at it, though.


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## re-peat (Mar 29, 2021)

I’m not “scared off”, Paul. I’m humbled, dumbfounded and in perpetual awe. And what you’re talking about, unless I misunderstand you, is more the gritty craft of composing — the transpiration percentage — whereas I was talking about the act of creation. (Although there is, of course, quite a bit of overlap between the two.)

It reminds me of what Bernstein once said about Beethoven (the wisest words anyone ever said about Beethoven and only a composer of considerable gift him/herself could have said them): Beethoven always knew what to do next, with perfect intuition he always arrived at the next perfect bar. That’s sooooooo true, and for me, that is another mystery of the same perplexing impenetrability as the creation of Stravinsky’s best music. 

I live my musical life with four or five of these inexplicable mysteries and I’m endlessly grateful for them. They’re a big part of the answer to the question “why are we here?” for me.

_


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## b_elliott (Mar 29, 2021)

re-peat said:


> If the history of classical music can be compared to a suspension bridge, then Stravinsky is, in my view, one of its three pillars, the other two being Bach and Beethoven.
> 
> __


Insightful on what you communicate. 

I agree with others who state there are only a handful per century who reach these upper strata of creativity.

On a different composer, I recently read part of Knud Jepperson's book on 12C Vocal counterpoint. I was struck by Palestrina's genius. Back then there was so little to work with -- music bars did not exist, key signatures were just being invented. Yet he managed to take a bible verse to create images of flowing streams through expert line-writing technique (Sicut Cervus - a cued analysis). 

I sometimes like to imagine what Palestrina's take would be on Stravinsky's L'Histoire du Soldat. We are very lucky to have experienced Igor. Lord knows who will be the next pillar.


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## dcoscina (Mar 29, 2021)

I read a few bios on Stravinsky and I find it amazing that he was told that he was too old to start composing (this is when he was in his teens, if memory serves). Just imagine if he'd taken that criticism to heart? The world would have missed out on a monumental artist's work. Luckily, I suspect most of the greats were stubborn and their resolve was truly unwavering.


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## SergeD (Mar 29, 2021)

I always felt of Stravinsky, Debussy, Ravel and Holst as the Jurassic era of classical music, where everything was bigger and higher. And, I don't know why, the Tchaikovsky Nutcracker would have been the transition to the birth of that gigantic world. 

And someday, an asteroid named serialism, destroyed the reign of the mighty dinosaurs


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## ed buller (Mar 29, 2021)

My musical Life began with Stravinsky. My father, a composer, took me to the Royal Festival Hall to watch a performance in 67. I was 5. We sat behind the percussion but moved as I was scared witless. Like the ape in 2001 THIS was my monolith. Rewiring my brain and everything in it for eternity. It has never stopped. Even now at 58, papa long gone, I listen to it several times a week. My autistic son was obsessed with it from the day we parked him in front of the telly watching Fantasia. He, now 24, listens to it more than me.

I think of it as the beginning of a totally new music. I find it extraordinary that his teacher Rimsky, set Igor off on this path. From such a conservative and relentlessly "correct" musician as Nikolai Andreevich Stravinsky could learn enough to catapult him through the stargate into a totally new world of rhythm and harmony. How he sat at the little piano, nursing a toothache in the attic of that long gone Hotel, inventing music's warp drive. Those relentless rhythms. the spicy dissonance, all hiding behind playful folk melodies . Nothing would ever be the same again.


https://www.google.ch/maps/@46.4425...4!1sq0AsEJQnCG0YiHCi2_pvUQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

He had hinted from "Fireworks" onward of his talent with quick witted hooks. The first two ballets alone would be enough for most composer on which to dine out for the rest of their lives. And yet hiding behind those pieces was the shadow of the Rite. He just needed the right narrative to tie it all together. Then the idea of a peasant girl, dancing herself to death, in celebration of the end of winter came to him. Oh how gloriously Russian !. But of course it caused a riot !..why on earth wouldn't it.
Genteel Parisians were not prepared for the endless pounding...fifty nine times of the same dissonant chord....even Diaghilev who paid for the piece was somewhat worried !...




And then Like Picasso he was looking for something new......yet whether it was serialism or Neoclassicism it always sounded of him . Pungent and earthy and so very russian.




thank god for Stravinsky

best

ed


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## b_elliott (Mar 29, 2021)

One thing about Stravinsky's Rite is the fact part of it was included on Voyager's Golden disc to represent Earth as it journeys outwards. 

Imma thinking this alone could be what sways an aggressor towards thinking "Do not mess with these guys!" 

Maybe another thing to thank Igor for...


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## ptram (Mar 29, 2021)

cmillar said:


> A must watch.... the 'Rite of Spring' ballet with the original choreography re-created by the Joffrey Ballet.


I must admit that I've never liked the original choreography (and so did Stravinsky). I think it was basically a misunderstanding between the composer and the choreographer. And more the end of an era, than the beginning of the future like the score.

The _Rite_ has seen a lot of different interpretations on stage, due to the enormous strength of its deeper level of meaning. My three preferred are probably the ones by Béjart (a rite of love), Bausch (probably the most faithful to the original intention, with its match between sexes), and Preljocaj (the inner meaning of the rite: a rape – I must put here a parental advisory if you want to go on watching).

https://vimeo.com/groups/237870/videos/25903360 (Béjart)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOTjyCM3Ou4 (Bausch 1) | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F74wzsCfUGY (Bausch 2)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VSdr2RlEn4 (Preljocaj)

Paolo


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## ptram (Mar 29, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> I read a few bios on Stravinsky and I find it amazing that he was told that he was too old to start composing


Whomever told this to him, didn't probably live for nearly ninety years! 

Paolo


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## pinki (Mar 29, 2021)

ed buller said:


> My musical Life began with Stravinsky. My father, a composer, took me to the Royal Festival Hall to watch a performance in 67. I was 5. We sat behind the percussion but moved as I was scared witless. Like the ape in 2001 THIS was my monolith. Rewiring my brain and everything in it for eternity. It has never stopped. Even now at 58, papa long gone, I listen to it several times a week. My autistic son was obsessed with it from the day we parked him in front of the telly watching Fantasia. He, now 24, listens to it more than me.
> 
> I think of it as the beginning of a totally new music. I find it extraordinary that his teacher Rimsky, set Igor off on this path. From such a conservative and relentlessly "correct" musician as Nikolai Andreevich Stravinsky could learn enough to catapult him through the stargate into a totally new world of rhythm and harmony. How he sat at the little piano, nursing a toothache in the attic of that long gone Hotel, inventing music's warp drive. Those relentless rhythms. the spicy dissonance, all hiding behind playful folk melodies . Nothing would ever be the same again.
> 
> ...



Ha...a very similar experience for me Ed. Royal Festival Hall, in the slips directly over the percussion. Pierre Boulez conducting. The timpani!! I too was totally rewired. It was a moment of sheer ecstasy better than any drug. Years later I saw the Pina Bausch and it came close but this time no Boulez and no BBC Symphony....but what choreography!

I am a composer for contemporary dance. He is never far away. Being above the percussion melted my resistance.


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## ptram (Mar 30, 2021)

I don't know if we can say that we owe something very important to Igor even in our notation and DAW programs: the linear view of the score. I think it was still called "Igor's View" in one of the earlier versions of Finale. In fact, Stravinsky invented a tool to draw staves of infinite length on any type of paper. Money was better spent on whiskey than on music paper!

Paolo


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## ptram (Mar 30, 2021)

Mike T said:


> Oh, and this is a great lesser-known gem from his earlier period.


I wonder if _Le Roi des Etoiles_ is to be considered the first sci-fi music, or Scriabin came first...

Speaking of early works, we had lost one of the earlier masterworks, only rediscovered in 2015 just before being trashed away. It was the piece written for the death of Rimsky-Korsakov, his spiritual father. This end is the real beginning?

Funeral Song

Paolo


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## cmillar (Mar 30, 2021)

ptram said:


> I don't know if we can say that we owe something very important to Igor even in our notation and DAW programs: the linear view of the score. I think it was still called "Igor's View" in one of the earlier versions of Finale. In fact, Stravinsky invented a tool to draw staves of infinite length on any type of paper. Money was better spent on whiskey than on music paper!
> 
> Paolo


I thought I read once that Stravinsky (in the early '20's) had tried to synchronize two player pianos in order to have them play a score...but, they would never play back in synch due to the mechanics.

It's like he was envisioning the first MIDI sequencers as well!


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## tmhuud (Mar 30, 2021)

mikeh-375 said:


> My favourite moment is when he is in a car in L.A. driving past a liquor store and he asks to stop and get some whisky.




That was a great Docu. Loved that moment as well. To YOU Igor, a toast! 🥃


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## Virtuoso (Mar 30, 2021)

Just a headsup - DG are releasing an updated version of their Stravinsky Complete Works in about 3 weeks. I've got mine pre-ordered - $60 currently, which feels like a mistake!



The previous https://www.amazon.com/Stravinsky-Complete-30-Box-Set/dp/B013FFSG7U (out of print version) is selling for >$800!


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## ptram (Mar 30, 2021)

Virtuoso said:


> The previous https://www.amazon.com/Stravinsky-Complete-30-Box-Set/dp/B013FFSG7U (out of print version) is selling for >$800!


Hey! I should sell mine at half price, and get the updated one!

Where can I download the update to v2.0? 

Paolo


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## Mark Kouznetsov (Mar 31, 2021)

The Rite of Spring is when you compose rubato in your DAW, with the click still going, and then you switch to score view.


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## Dr. Shagwell (Apr 1, 2021)

If you ever get rejected at some point in your career, it can be worth remembering even the greats had their detractors too. Imagine watching your piece being broadcast on television and this is the introduction


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## CT (Apr 1, 2021)

Have to love Gould, whether he's praising something or decrying it. What a guy!


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## CT (Apr 1, 2021)

Yeah that's a winner!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 1, 2021)

Some of my favorite pieces of music in general, not just of his:

L'Histoire du Soldat
Octet for Winds
The Rite (duh)
Dunbarton Oaks
Pulcinella
Symphony of Psalms
Firebird


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## Michael Antrum (Apr 3, 2021)

Virtuoso said:


> Just a headsup - DG are releasing an updated version of their Stravinsky Complete Works in about 3 weeks. I've got mine pre-ordered - $60 currently, which feels like a mistake!
> 
> 
> 
> The previous https://www.amazon.com/Stravinsky-Complete-30-Box-Set/dp/B013FFSG7U (out of print version) is selling for >$800!



That’s odd, it seems to be released in the UK already.....


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 3, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Some of my favorite pieces of music in general, not just of his:
> 
> L'Histoire du Soldat
> Octet for Winds
> ...


Where’s Petrushka?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 3, 2021)

This is a lot of fun:


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## b_elliott (Apr 3, 2021)

Ned Bouhalassa said:


> This is a lot of fun:



+1 for digging that up.


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## tmhuud (Apr 3, 2021)

Virtuoso said:


> Just a headsup - DG are releasing an updated version of their Stravinsky Complete Works in about 3 weeks. I've got mine pre-ordered - $60 currently, which feels like a mistake!
> 
> 
> 
> The previous https://www.amazon.com/Stravinsky-Complete-30-Box-Set/dp/B013FFSG7U (out of print version) is selling for >$800!




That’s weird. I think there was a complete works for $800.00. 🤔


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 4, 2021)

Ned Bouhalassa said:


> This is a lot of fun:



Love it!

I remember reading somewhere that Stravinsky wasn't thrilled with the original choreography. He'd been picturing some kind of mass movement rather than individual stuff.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 5, 2021)

tmhuud said:


> That’s weird. I think there was a complete works for $800.00. 🤔


Was that on the Olympic Network late at night?

(They have great infomercials for OTT expensive DVD collections.)


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 5, 2021)

Yeah, I may be itching for a fight!


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## tmhuud (Apr 6, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Was that on the Olympic Network late at night?
> 
> (They have great infomercials for OTT expensive DVD collections.)



They certainly do Nick! I saw another very pricey one on Amazon recently. I bought a complete Debussy collection for a pretty good price and was not too disappointed. It’s a tough call balancing the recording quality with interpretations your satisfied with or used too, and decent liner notes that don’t put you to sleep while reading them.


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## Ryan Fultz (Apr 6, 2021)

Les Noces.

I love everything that man did, I went from playing drums and completely uninterested in orchestral music or chamber music, etc. to transfixed and forever changed.

I practically on a whim a few weeks into my performance major for drumset added a composition major and completely changed courses on what my intentions were. Me, at 20, having already changed from history and anthropology degrees to auditioning for Berklee and going there to pursue a massive life change into drumming for a living, to then deciding almost on instinct "composing is for me" all because of the Rite of Spring. I have now listened to so many of his compositions, witnessed countless live performances, and my appreciation for him just deepens, every era of his is awe-inspiring.

His music changed my life, ripped me from my own beliefs of who I was, and who I wanted to be.


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## CT (Apr 6, 2021)

Ned Bouhalassa said:


> Yeah, I may be itching for a fight!


Berg = George then, of course.


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## Ryan Fultz (Apr 6, 2021)

Mike T said:


> Berg = George then, of course.


And honestly, I like Berg a hell of a lot more than I like Webern.


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## CT (Apr 6, 2021)

Ryan Fultz said:


> And honestly, I like Berg a hell of a lot more than I like Webern.


Me too actually. I appreciate the incredibly meticulous craft of Webern but Berg's music has more appeal overall.


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## Dansereal (Jul 17, 2021)

Ryan Fultz said:


> Les Noces.
> 
> I love everything that man did, I went from playing drums and completely uninterested in orchestral music or chamber music, etc. to transfixed and forever changed.
> 
> ...


Reconnected with a college roommate, a musician, after a 40-year interval. His almost-first words to me were, “Stravinsky still rules!”


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