# Orchestration help.



## David Hall (Jun 13, 2017)

how much solo instruments do you usually use on your composition?

I'm new to the art of orchestration and so far I've found that my compositions lack something.. to which I can ignorantly describe as the lack of diversity, it doesn't sound full but rather thin or vacant.

obviously it all depends on the composition and the approach, the reason I ask this is because I've noticed how much the use of just a solo instrument on some compositions I've revised add to the whole in a subtle and sometimes evident way. 

does the art of knowing which instrument to pick for a certain situation comes with experience? or is there a cheat sheet?. I've been using the spectrotone chart that it helps greatly, but I wanted some different points of view from others well versed on this art.

thanks


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## karelpsota (Jun 13, 2017)

I would stay away from cheat sheets and charts.

IMO, the best way to learn is to do remakes as close as possible to the original.
Just a few bars of your favorite pieces.
Before you know it you will have internalized orchestration (along with writing, production, mixing, mastering).

As far as solo instruments, @Blakus had a cool trick where he used an ensemble patch for the top voice of the chord, and solo patches for all the voices below. It had a very clean/defined sound while still sounding huge.


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## murderbagmitch (Jun 14, 2017)

Hey David

I'm an absolute beginner myself and have been finding Rick Beato's Youtube channel to be a great learning tool 



That video is basically what @karelpsota is recommending to do


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## Flaneurette (Jun 14, 2017)

murderbagmitch said:


> Hey David
> have been finding Rick Beato's Youtube channel to be a great learning tool



It is a nice video. However, one tiny detail: he says that the Clarinet is a B♭ instrument. Which is not _entirely_ true. There are A and E♭ clarinets as well. Even C clarinets to a much lesser extend. The A Clarinet is generally only used in Classical music. To make it more complicated: The Bassett Clarinet (not to confuse with Bassett Horn) is also an A clarinet, or soprano A clarinet. B♭ and C (Opera) exists as well. Mozart wrote for the Bassett Horn in A, B, but today it is performed on the Bassett A Clarinet.

So the main Clarinets you'll find in orchestration are B♭ and A.
Anyway... had to recheck what I just wrote because it is confusing yes.


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## murderbagmitch (Jun 15, 2017)

Flaneurette said:


> It is a nice video. However, one tiny detail: he says that the Clarinet is a B♭ instrument. Which is not _entirely_ true. There are A and E♭ clarinets as well. Even C clarinets to a much lesser extend. The A Clarinet is generally only used in Classical music. To make it more complicated: The Bassett Clarinet (not to confuse with Bassett Horn) is also an A clarinet, or soprano A clarinet. B♭ and C (Opera) exists as well. Mozart wrote for the Bassett Horn in A, B, but today it is performed on the Bassett A Clarinet.
> 
> So the main Clarinets you'll find in orchestration are B♭ and A.
> Anyway... had to recheck what I just wrote because it is confusing yes.



Well.....that's my brain melted XD


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## devonmyles (Jun 15, 2017)

Flaneurette said:


> It is a nice video. However, one tiny detail: he says that the Clarinet is a B♭ instrument. Which is not _entirely_ true. There are A and E♭ clarinets as well. Even C clarinets to a much lesser extend. The A Clarinet is generally only used in Classical music. To make it more complicated: The Bassett Clarinet (not to confuse with Bassett Horn) is also an A clarinet, or soprano A clarinet. B♭ and C (Opera) exists as well. Mozart wrote for the Bassett Horn in A, B, but today it is performed on the Bassett A Clarinet.
> 
> So the main Clarinets you'll find in orchestration are B♭ and A.
> Anyway... had to recheck what I just wrote because it is confusing yes.



We all knew that.


Great post.


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## sazema (Jun 15, 2017)

Definition or rule of how many solo instruments to use does not exist actually.
You should listen your soul and just feel the moment.
What I want to say is, if I'm scoring some piece and I have feeling that one fagot will bring much better atmosphere to complete picture - I will use that fagot. Or clarinet, or thunder sheets  

I'm reading your questions (this and some old ones) and I can only notice you are so worried  and you seeking for rules and standards.
There is some rules, there is some standards, but you (or we) are here to break that  If you understand me.
Just relax and spend as many time as you can with composing in front of your sequencer, and you will soon enjoy in positive results.

Also, one more time I will say: "just listen existing music, and analyze".
Also, someone already told you - just re-score some existing music to mimic same atmosphere and sound - that's most important experience in any composer career. Just by re-scoring something you will learn a lot, especially about harmony and orchestral elements.


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## JohnG (Jun 15, 2017)

sazema said:


> fagot



In English, it's "bassoon."

But I like your suggestion to "listen your soul and just feel the moment."


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## JohnG (Jun 15, 2017)

@David Hall I do think there are a number of "rules" that are very useful and that work effectively. Most orchestration or arranging books include them. I don't know your level of learning, so apologies if this is off base, but you would struggle with the books if you can't read music.

As far as video online, I thought Thinkspace had an orchestration course online. I think they are generally pretty good on instruction. Youtube probably has a million videos, some good, some probably not so good. The problem with Youtube is sorting through the rubbish to the gold.


If you want a book, let us know.


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## J-M (Jun 15, 2017)

Great posts, and like the other have already said: feel the music and analyze and remake existing pieces (helped me to make my orchestrations from embarrassing to less embarrassing. )


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## David Hall (Jun 15, 2017)

JohnG said:


> I don't know your level of learning, so apologies if this is off base, but you would struggle with the books if you can't read music



I know music notation, I learned it to help myself understand orchestration. One of the thinks that we cannot find online is how a particular part of a score is played individually, the only thing we can rely is well.. music scores that we know are all written.

I want to mention that i listen to tons of music from the old classical to modern, among other genres, and like many others have mentioned, listening is helpful, trying to come up with what you are hearing can be difficult if you are doing it by purely basing it from what you can hear.

there are limits to what you can distinguish in a piece of music when you hear it and another when you can actually see "how" it was written, hence why i learned music notation.

I've been munching kursakov books. there is an online version anyone can read that a member from here suggested me and it has been great to learn. 

if you have any extra books in your mind that could help besides Adler and kursakov i would love to know them.

thanks.


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## JJP (Jun 16, 2017)

David Hall said:


> I'm new to the art of orchestration and so far I've found that my compositions lack something.. to which I can ignorantly describe as the lack of diversity, it doesn't sound full but rather thin or vacant.



Many self-taught beginners jump to orchestration too quickly. As a result they resort to instrument doublings in order to fill out a thin texture when what is lacking is harmonic depth. I don't know your background, but if you haven't spent time studying harmony (vertical chords) and voice-leading (the horizontal way notes move from one chord to another) studying orchestration will give you limited returns.

The real secret to orchestration is that most well-voiced compositions will sound full with a maximum of 4 or 5 voices (notes per chord) before it is orchestrated. In many ways orchestration becomes an extension of voice-leading. This is why many good college music schools require four semesters of music theory before taking an orchestration course.

If you haven't spent a few years studying music theory, I'd highly recommend you focus your efforts there. Orchestration will then be the icing on an already delicious cake.


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## Parsifal666 (Jun 16, 2017)

JJP said:


> Many self-taught beginners jump to orchestration too quickly. As a result they resort to instrument doublings in order to fill out a thin texture when what is lacking is harmonic depth. I don't know your background, but if you haven't spent time studying harmony (vertical chords) and voice-leading (the horizontal way notes move from one chord to another) studying orchestration will give you limited returns.
> 
> The real secret to orchestration is that most well-voiced compositions will sound full with a maximum of 4 or 5 voices (notes per chord) before it is orchestrated. In many ways orchestration becomes an extension of voice-leading. This is why when I was in college, we were required to have four semesters of music theory before we could take an orchestration course.
> 
> If you haven't spent a few years studying music theory, I'd highly recommend you focus your efforts there. Orchestration will then be the icing on an already delicious cake.



There are great points here. I recommend Adler's Study of Orchestration and access to all the music examples (you could probably just find all that stuff on youtube). There are also other great books on the subject: the Forsythe and Rismsy-Korsakov are quite good.

I only graduated B.A., but my intensive, super motivated self-teaching covered the other bases. The Adler book was a big part of that. But of course, I did have the college years in theory, etc. behind me.

JJP's point about music theory is correct...I'm just not sure I'd put the time at a few years. If properly motivated (as in COMPLETELY APPLY YOURSELF and STAY OFF THE FORUMS LOL!) you could knock that down to under a year. The fact that there are so many resources available today, as opposed to when I went to the University, probably knocks that down even further.

If you already know how to read music, I can't see why you couldn't start picking up orchestration tips now. It most positively can't hurt.


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## David Hall (Jun 16, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> If you already know how to read music, I can't see why you couldn't start picking up orchestration tips now. It most positively can't hurt.



I know right... Maybe I should update my profile. But yeah... I know nation at least the basics, harmony, major, augmented, diminished, flat 5, minor, I barely remember the modal notes but I don't think music today uses modal notes as much as just your regular theory. 

But I guess I will shut up from now on and just go full study on the books people have suggested. 

I'm on the woodwinds melody in unison and combinations on kurskov book so far, I still need to read the rest. 

One thing that that book might have is something that I can't rarely find and that it's textures and combinations. 

Also can someone tell me where to find score sheets for reading and sampling practices?. Thanks


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## Parsifal666 (Jun 16, 2017)

David Hall said:


> I know right... Maybe I should update my profile. But yeah... I know nation at least the basics, harmony, major, augmented, diminished, flat 5, minor, I barely remember the modal notes but I don't think music today uses modal notes as much as just your regular theory.
> 
> But I guess I will shut up from now on and just go full study on the books people have suggested.
> 
> ...



You might be better off grabbing the relatively inexpensive scores to things like Strauss' Alpensifonie and Mahler's 9th. There's also Jerry Goldsmith and John Williams...pick a score.

And finally, for somebody whose been righteously successful in the incorporation of the synth into soundtracks, grab something by HZ (Dark Knight Rises is a good example).


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## David Hall (Jun 16, 2017)

douggibson said:


> What are your top 5 pieces that, if you wrote like that, you would die happy ? I think you'll get more direct feedback if you post this.
> 
> I have seen this thread during the week, but have not mentioned anything because I don't know your music/goals. It's the difference between saying "I want to go to any city" vs. "I want to see a city like New York City".



I think my question was very simple.. and I have gotten plenty of feedback. I don't think i need to ask it more specifically since i wasn't looking for something specific but rather just some thoughts. 

if i had to rephrase it i would've said "how often do you implement solo instruments in your compositions". I think that sounds more clear.

thanks


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## David Hall (Jun 16, 2017)

douggibson said:


> Some pretty weird mojo on this forum today.



Thanks a lot. 

I appreciate a lot your feedback, and It seems like I still need a lot to cover before I come here to the forums and actually have some real questions it seems. maybe i will answer it myself one day.

thanks.


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## Dave Connor (Jun 17, 2017)

I think studying Haydn scores would be very good. Any Haydn, early or late. The reason being that orchestration is a process applied to the composition process (even if conceived simultaneously.) That is, you must have musical material to _orchestrate. _So the simpler the material (less material to look at such as a total of 10 staves rather 24) the easier it is to study and understand how it was orchestrated. All orchestral music after Haydn is simply an expansion of his basic symphony orchestra. He was studied by Mozart and Beethoven. Although they obviously absorbed his orchestration techniques there can be no question it was the music they were studying. It wasn't just that the violas might be doing one thing; the upper strings another and the lower strings another (and perhaps the woodwinds still another.) It was the musical statement being made along both vertical and horizontal planes. And Haydn is an absolute wonder at getting full, well-sounding textures from an orchestra that would fit in a large living area.

Inherent in your questions regarding solo and combined instruments is part of the answer you're after: a musical idea may be stated by a single instrument or any number of doublings by an identical, similar or completely different instruments. The main question is: how good is that musical idea? The better the idea, the better it will _orchestrate_.


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## David Hall (Jun 17, 2017)

Dave Connor said:


> Inherent in your questions regarding solo and combined instruments is part of the answer you're after: a musical idea may be stated by a single instrument or any number of doublings by an identical, similar or completely different instruments. The main question is: how good is that musical idea? The better the idea, the better it will _orchestrate_.



that was fascinating!.. indeed. my musical ideas are very complicated however since i'm just starting getting what i have in my head can be difficult without the experience and musical foundation first.

i will keep in mind what you said here next time i come up with an idea. I might have to hold my horses because i know an idea is something and coloring the idea is another but i need to restrain my urge to learn and go step by step, thanks nonetheless Dave.


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## mikeh-375 (Jun 18, 2017)

David,

As well as the good advice given above, perhaps you should also make an effort to get to know the instruments that make up an orchestra. Apart from having to understand their strengths and limitations in order to write well for them, you also have to develop a musical sense of what instrument is appropriate for a given line - for example, what instruments are best suited to staccato in registers below middle c. Equally important is expressive suitability - the best scoring always considers whether or not a passage fits the personality of the instrument.
Composers who are proficient in orchestration often think in terms of instruments from the outset, ie when composing and not always as an afterthought. This is a great way to compose as you are already thinking in terms of colour and combinations thereof as well as foreground and background. The more you know about the capabilities and combinations of instruments, the more options you have whilst composing and inevitably you will produce music that is a joy to play as well as to listen to.
I'd suggest during your studies that you also put some time aside to concentrate on say the flute family first and listen to and study scores that feature them in solo and combination work. Learn all you can about phrasing, articulations, combinations etc. and then move on to the oboes and gradually work your way down the score page.
There is no easy way to do it properly, it takes work and time. Consistency is the key, if you stick at it, you will find an alternative paradigm with which to compose.
as you say ..it's difficult to learn, but not impossible.


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## wbacer (Jun 18, 2017)

I would also suggest Mike Verta's MasterClasses.
All of Mike's classes are excellent, Orchestration 1 and 2 would be a good place to start.
Classes are 40% off until July 4th. 
http://mikeverta.com/product-category/masterclasses/


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## David Hall (Jun 21, 2017)

mikeh-375 said:


> There is no easy way to do it properly, it takes work and time. Consistency is the key, if you stick at it, you will find an alternative paradigm with which to compose.


thank you sir.. i will do just that


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## mikeh-375 (Jun 22, 2017)

You can call me Sir Mike if you wish.....


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## Dave Connor (Jun 22, 2017)

David Hall said:


> that was fascinating!.. indeed. my musical ideas are very complicated however since i'm just starting getting what i have in my head can be difficult without the experience and musical foundation first.


If you have a wealth of musical ideas in your head then you should develop your keyboard abilities as quickly as possible so you can bang them out. Or sing them into a device. You are going to end up doing some form of that eventually anyway. Even with a stellar education. Don't wait for anything. Start writing/orchestrating now in any way you can. That's what a keyboard player does: he orchestrates (organizes music under his hands.) You will do no harm to your learning by experimenting now. Write eight bars of strings chords and play around with a french horn melodically. Then maybe have the french horns also play chords with the lower strings while the melody is played in the upper violins. Look at a Ravel score and see how the ideas are delineated (or copied exactly) in the various groups. And yes, it is very helpful to familiarize yourself with the groups or choirs of the orchestra: Strings, Winds, Brass, (Percussion and Choir or even synths.) Have fun with it all!


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## sinkd (Jun 22, 2017)

Has anyone mentioned Henry Brant's book? I like it a lot, as well as Adler.


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## JohnG (Jun 22, 2017)

Dave Connor said:


> Don't wait for anything. Start writing/orchestrating now in any way you can.



Agree 100% with Dave. Start and keep going. Learn some time-tested orchestration / arranging /theory along the way, but don't let anyone convince you that "no you can't do that until you've done all these other things." That has crushed many a student's ambition.

That said, it goes without saying that it's _preferable_ to know more instead of less.


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