# Monitors Not Sounding as Good as Headphones... same for you?



## PaulieDC (Nov 29, 2020)

Posting this here because it's related to mixing kinda sorta...

I run an RME Babyface Pro with Sennheiser 650s and for me that combo is _perfecto_. When I play libraries like Garritan CFX or Spitfire Chamber Strings, it sounds incredible in the cans. BUT, when I play through my iLoud MTMs (calibrated with the mic), it just sounds so boxy and mid heavy. The Garritan for example doesn't sound jaw-dropping like in the cans, it sounds like a mid-heavy not-so-great piano patch. The weird thing is, a commercial track sound incredible through the MTMs, everything from a Norman Brown jazz track to Glenn Miller to Mozart.

Am I basically expecting too much from a $700 pair of near-fields? Should I be thinking in the range of Genelec 8030s through Focal Solo6 Be's? I used TotalMixFX to EQ the output a bit, just a wide(ish) Q with a 2-3db cut at 600Hz and 2.5KHz and that did help, but I'm still not getting the "you've got to be kidding me" awesome sound like with the 650s. Probably why I always mix with HPs. Anyway, whattya think?


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## José Herring (Nov 29, 2020)

PaulieDC said:


> Posting this here because it's related to mixing kinda sorta...
> 
> I run an RME Babyface Pro with Sennheiser 650s and for me that combo is _perfecto_. When I play libraries like Garritan CFX or Spitfire Chamber Strings, it sounds incredible in the cans. BUT, when I play through my iLoud MTMs (calibrated with the mic), it just sounds so boxy and mid heavy. The Garritan for example doesn't sound jaw-dropping like in the cans, it sounds like a mid-heavy not-so-great piano patch. The weird thing is, a commercial track sound incredible through the MTMs, everything from a Norman Brown jazz track to Glenn Miller to Mozart.
> 
> Am I basically expecting too much from a $700 pair of near-fields? Should I be thinking in the range of Genelec 8030s through Focal Solo6 Be's? I used TotalMixFX to EQ the output a bit, just a wide(ish) Q with a 2-3db cut at 600Hz and 2.5KHz and that did help, but I'm still not getting the "you've got to be kidding me" awesome sound like with the 650s. Probably why I always mix with HPs. Anyway, whattya think?


Man I go through this battle 24/7 because I have to mix in the cans a lot then transfer to my speakers to verify the mix only to realize that it sounds like crap on speakers. I realized that it's two things. Headphones are really detailed and it can be hard to make mix decisions in headphones. Also, there could be a lot of low end garbage in your mix that can't be heard on headphones but can be picked up by your speakers. 

First, check your speakers and see if a trumpet sounds like a trumpet, strings sound like strings ect.. See if tonally they are okay. 

Also, comparing samples to Norman Brown, Glenn Miller and Mozart....always a mistake. I would compare your tracks to composers who write a lot with samples like in filmscoring because even their live stuff sounds like it was written for samples and thus you can make a better comparison. Trying to compare your samples to the Mozart dissonant quartet or Glen Miller's In the Mood will only lead you to depression, booze, wondering if you're good enough, ect... we don't want that. 

Lastly yes great speakers will give you a lot of benefit but also the Ilouds are great because it will give you a more realistic idea of what your music will sound like on most systems. So will headphones. Unless you are doing a lot of major motion picture work in which case I'd get a full surround sound setup with sub. The kind of speaker doesn't matter as much as the accuracy.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Nov 29, 2020)

You didn't mention the most important thing, your room. Pretty much any monitor nowadays sounds decent. Your room matters 10x more. 

With good speakers, it should sound better than headphones. When I do QC work on headphones, I lose a lot of the detail that I work on on my speakers. If your room and speakers aren't great then you'll have the opposite effect where headphones sound more detailed.


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## jcrosby (Nov 29, 2020)

Headphones and speakers sound completely different... How often do you listen to your speakers? I actually prefer mixing on speakers 10x more than cans. My ears get fatigued quickly on cans and the stereo image is totally unrealistic, even if using something like Can Opener. Plus you get none of the visceral response in cans that you get from speakers. I know the subs right when it sounds right, and feels right, I know what the floor feels like and I know how the air hits my chest... Speakers win for me every time.

When you say boxy I immediately think of the sound of a room. You can put the most expensive speakers in a bad room and those speakers will never sound as good as they would in a properly designed room.

If you've ever had the pleasure of sitting in a proper mastering room - (i.e. designed from the ground up, not a re-purposed bed room or living room) - and thought _holy shit this sounds incredible!_, remember that regardless of how much they spent on their speakers they spent a hell of a lot more having that room built.

I guess my main points are that you need to frequently listen to your speakers and understand how music translates on those speakers, and more importantly how your room affects what you hear. Replacing your speakers might be an improvement, it might also be an expensive experiment where you feel like you've just spent a ton of extra cash for nominal improvement... If commercial mixes sound good on them then buying more expensive speakers will most likely be less of an upgrade than you expect it to be.

Acoustics will always be an improvement, but how much of an improvement comes down to the room... Super small rooms, rooms almost cube shaped, or rooms with tons of asymmetry are always going to be difficult to treat..

The point isn't to say treat your room no matter what. It's - 1st figure out what causes your room to sound boxy. Is it that it's small in general? Or is it that you have one set of parallel surfaces that are very close to each other. (Barring the ceiling... This is a given in any domestic room.)

Anyway... It's a solid bet that your room's more the issue if you feel the sound is 'boxy'...


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## jcrosby (Nov 29, 2020)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> You didn't mention the most important thing, your room.


Bingo


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## MrBuck (Nov 30, 2020)

For me using Isolation Stands under the speakers made a big difference in having them sound clearer. Having the speakers flat on the desk or the stands takes away its ability to freely vibrate and makes it lose some of its clarity, especially in the lower end. Putting them on the Isolation Stands gives them more freedom to vibrate apart from the desk or stands again and get a truer sound out. I love mine as they surely seem to make a world of a difference how my speakers sound. Could be a possible way to help your sound be more like what you get from headphones. There are some examples posted online showing the difference between with them or without them. Check it out.


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## Jdiggity1 (Nov 30, 2020)

I find that your money can go further with headphones than they can with speakers.
Spending $1000 on a pair of headphones (such as the HD800s) is much better bang-for-buck than $1000 worth of monitors.
It also eliminates all the bad stuff that comes with using monitors: ie. reflections/nodes/echoes/resonances/placement & positioning/stereo field, etc.


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## ryans (Nov 30, 2020)

You have great headphones and it will take a pretty amazing room/monitor combo to equal that experience...

Just from a listening perpective (disregarding accuracy for a moment) .....For me it's an apples to oranges comparison... great headphones have an intimate quality that no speaker can really replicate. 

Great speakers in a great room is a completely different experience, Live orchestra in a great room is another vastly different experience.


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## SupremeFist (Nov 30, 2020)

Get dsoniq Realphones to use with your 650s and thank me later. (Or get the Slate VSX cans but that is more expensive.)


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## I like music (Nov 30, 2020)

I 'treated' my room (without using any reference software) because I could tell that it was boxy, even as I spoke in it. And despite how bad it still sounds, it is infinitely better. Basically, I kept my shitty speakers the same but treated the room with some bass traps based on advice I got from a vendor who sells these things. Suddenly, my speakers sounded like much better speakers.

However, given that this room will always be deficient, I wonder what the alternatives are. Because my mix sounds _totally_ different between my speakers and my room. Right now I'm considering doing that ROOM EQ stuff that Blakus talks about ... just wondering if I need to lay down money on Sonarworks and how much it'd help.


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## Robert Kooijman (Nov 30, 2020)

Have a pair of Iloud MTM's. Love them. Tried various placements and settings. The best (least colored) sound was obtained after putting them each on a 20x20x7 cm glass block, the type used for bathrooms and decorative walls.

Having them standing on the desk (with or without the suppled angled footings) always lead to a boxy colored sound, that was impossible to get rid of even after acoustic self-calibration or additional EQ.

Also use a Sennheiser HD580 precision (comparable to a HD600) headphone. The small Iloud MTM's are pretty close in sound character to the Sennheiser: non-hyped, open and natural. We also have some large high-end monitors, but they don't get used anymore.


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## merty (Nov 30, 2020)

You guys should check out the new-gen affordable monitors such as Kali audio, adam, fluid audio...they have dsp in them and are super flat.

Super flat is a dull and boring sound but like the mid. heavy ns10m's worked for the engineers in the past, these work well for the home studio owner. The room of course is another factor but such monitors does help.

For headphone mixing I'm against it cause of health related things like hearing loss. The expense you don't make for a good sounding system+room, will go to the doctor and hearing aids in the future...


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## Ashermusic (Nov 30, 2020)

If you have boxy room issues and cannot afford proper room treatment, one helpful step is to have bookcases with staggered books of different sizes. It’s the poor man’s way of cutting down on traps.


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## I like music (Nov 30, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> If you have boxy room issues and cannot afford proper room treatment, one helpful step is to have bookcases with staggered books of different sizes. It’s the poor man’s way of cutting down on traps.



No joke, but my last 100 books were on the fricking Kindle. However, I am going to be doing this anyways. Good shout.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Nov 30, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> cannot afford proper room treatment



Well, wouldn't matter anyway because I'd be dead


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## cloudbuster (Nov 30, 2020)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> You didn't mention the most important thing, your room. Pretty much any monitor nowadays sounds decent. Your room matters 10x more.
> 
> With good speakers, it should sound better than headphones. When I do QC work on headphones, I lose a lot of the detail that I work on on my speakers. If your room and speakers aren't great then you'll have the opposite effect where headphones sound more detailed.


Big, fat, resounding AMEN. This and a bunch of reference tracks across the respective genres.
(I'm on the road most of the time and hence do most of my stuff on cans (AKG K712 Pro) and lately in-ears (IMR); everything modded and terminated with symmetric cables running on an E1DA 9038S USB DAC to keep it as linear as possible but I usually can't wait to do the final mix and mastering on my trusty DIY monitor speakers.)


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## Quasar (Nov 30, 2020)

I like music said:


> No joke, but my last 100 books were on the fricking Kindle. However, I am going to be doing this anyways. Good shout.


If using a Kindle instead of a physical bookshelf, make sure you have a lot of books loaded into the device for better absorption. Gutenberg.org has free public domain content available if money is a problem... but seriously, moving blankets, draped over whatever, can be a cheap way to crudely but dramatically improve a room, too.

I use headphones a lot both because my space isn't great and I like the privacy aspect. Yes, the room is important, then monitor quality. But if you learn the sonic characteristics of your monitors and get used to how they sound using known reference tracks, you should be able to translate pretty much anything. Knowing what you have and how it compares with the rest of the world is the best bedroom studio antidote to expensive recording gear and environments IMH(amateur)O.


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## Greg (Nov 30, 2020)

Get the best focals you can afford imo. The focal trio 6s actually solved a lot of my room issues just by playing with positioning. It was the best gear purchase I have made for my music by far.


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## LudovicVDP (Nov 30, 2020)

I use headphones because of day job + wife + kids = music by night with headphones.

Not easy with an almost dead left ear.
Sometimes I need to remember to invert my headphone. Then I often realize how unbalanced my mix is.

I really enjoy the days off I take for music, when kids are at school. Composing on speakers is way better for me. Even if mine are crapy.

@Greg 
At that price tag, I bet they are good indeed  
Focal is on my list as well (not those. I wish, though!)


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## jononotbono (Nov 30, 2020)

If your room is shit, everything sounds shit. You could put a million dollars worth of monitoring in a room but if the room isn’t right, you might as well go to Vegas with the money.

if you have a shit room (most people do) then try out Sonarworks. It can really help depending on a few things.

Or just buy some Audeze LCDX headphones and forget about these worries forever more.

Just my thoughts. So ignore them. 😂


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## SupremeFist (Nov 30, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> if you have a shit room (most people do) then try out Sonarworks. It can really help depending on a few things.


A bunch of people over at GS who used to use Sonarworks (and maybe Canopener or AR3 etc) are saying that Realphones is a far better solution now. (I'm not affiliated with them, just genuinely very impressed, and think everyone who works primarily in cans should try it, though I prefer VSX overall.)


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## pranitkhedekar (Nov 30, 2020)

LudovicVDP said:


> Not easy with an almost dead left ear.


Can you tell more about this? I'm using headphones for almost everything Composing/Producing/Mixing and I thought I was the only one who is facing this issue but I hear sounds more on my right ear than left.


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## Quasar (Nov 30, 2020)

Greg said:


> Get the best focals you can afford imo. The focal trio 6s actually solved a lot of my room issues just by playing with positioning. It was the best gear purchase I have made for my music by far.


I have Focals, Apha 50s, their entry-level monitors. I really like them, but can only imagine what the Trios sound like at about 10x the cost.

One conceptual problem I've always had with "accuracy" is that I don't really believe in it. What does something sound like? Does an orchestra "really" sound like it does from the conductor's perspective, from the musicians' or live audience perspective (which seats?), or like a Bruno Walter vinyl recording on a particular set of audiophile speakers?...

...There's no central frame of reference (akin to Einstein's Special Relativity), only how things sound relative to how things sound under different conditions. Although some media and gear provide more detail, greater frequency range clarity or whatever, and this may (but not always) sound better to us, in the end it's really just cultural conditioning, templates we have learned how to interpret in terms of what they evoke in the 100+ years since recorded media became ubiquitous.

I could be wrong (and probably am), but virtual room treatment compensation stuff like Sonarworks just sounds like another layer of obfuscation that I'd rather not eff with. In my mind, I'd only be one further step removed from getting a grip on what the hell I think I'm listening for, or to.


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## pranitkhedekar (Nov 30, 2020)

Greg said:


> The focal trio 6s


How are those focals performing for you? I'm thinking of buying Focal Alpha 50.


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## Greg (Nov 30, 2020)

pranitkhedekar said:


> How are those focals performing for you? I'm thinking of buying Focal Alpha 50.



They're incredible. Improved my mixing and composing a lot but also made the entire experience of working with music much more pleasant now that I can trust what I'm hearing and hear it accurately. My orchestration especially improved, as when I demo'd them, I heard tons of things in my tracks that I would have done differently.


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## PaulieDC (Nov 30, 2020)

All GREAT responses... and thank you all for taking a ton of time to write back! Instead of replying to each, I can confirm that you are ALL correct. My room is not a room, it's a _corner _of our 18x15 office that also features my desk for work, my wife's desk, four printers (I'm a burnt-out landscape photographer), a craft worktable and a 1959 Singer sewing machine that weighs 88 lbs and amazingly still works. No other options right now, SO, some acoustic treatment on the walls that are 6" behind the speakers (I know, I know...), and I'll take @jononotbono's advice and give Sonarworks a try, I already have a good Ref mic. It's free to test and 40% off up to midnight. The iLouds have a calibration bit built-in but it's totally black box... the speaker does 4 loud WHOOPS and then you have to trust the result. That probably works in a well-built studio. I at least have them on solid stands and up at ear level. I have Auralex pads, I'll toss them underneath. I admit, Focals and a pair of Audeze LCDX's sound intriguing, but "Honey, I NEED these $4,000 speakers and headphones", lol... I'll do that after the first ASCAP check.  And TBH, putting a pair of Focals in my current room won't help, I need a new environment first.

dsoniq Realphones sounds amazing but I'm happy with the headphone situation I have. If Realphones makes them sound better than I now have a wider gap between the cans and my monitors, lol. Since I'm currently nobody from nowhere that hasn't sold a single soundtrack piece yet (and that will be a while), I need to focus on the weak links in my sewing room studio. BUT, I will keep it on my GAS checklist! Hmmmm, may have to call my world SRS, sounds a lot cooler than sewing room studio.

One other thought, caught a vid from a mix engineer that said the break-in time for his iLoud MTMs was noticeably longer than other speakers he has used (Adams A7X, etc), and once they settled the mids got REALLY nice sounding. Some swear by "speaker break-in" others call it snake oil but the worst that can happen is, I listen to a lot of stuff every day on them.

Here's hoping Sonarworks will somewhat help my abysmal room situation. I'll post back with results if anyone actually remembers this thread.


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## SupremeFist (Nov 30, 2020)

PaulieDC said:


> dsoniq Realphones sounds amazing but I'm happy with the headphone situation I have. If Realphones makes them sound better than I now have a wider gap between the cans and my monitors, lol.


The point of Realphones is not to make your headphones sound "better", but to enable you to create a mix on headphones that translates well to speakers. Since you say that commercial tracks sound good on your monitors, it's not your monitors that are the problem, but the mix decisions you make when using your headphones.


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## PaulieDC (Nov 30, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> The point of Realphones is not to make your headphones sound "better", but to enable you to create a mix on headphones that translates well to speakers. Since you say that commercial tracks sound good on your monitors, it's not your monitors that are the problem, but the mix decisions you make when using your headphones.


Roger that, I will check it out. Thanks!


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## SupremeFist (Nov 30, 2020)

PaulieDC said:


> Roger that, I will check it out. Thanks!


No problem, they have a free demo so it won't cost you anything to try!


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## method1 (Nov 30, 2020)

Using your speakers and a test tone generator sinewave, do a slow sweep from 25hz-20k.
You will notice some frequencies sound much louder and others will seem to disappear altogether. This same technique can also reveal some things about your headphones.
That will at least give you some idea of what's going wrong in your room i.e where the resonances and nulls are, once you know that you can start mentally compensating somewhat.

If you're inclined to try and fix it then the next step would be hooking up that ref mic to Room EQ Wizard to get a more accurate picture of the room response. Sonarworks will also give you some of this info (and try and compensate for it) but REW gives much more in-depth insight, reverb times and waterfall graphs.

With that info you can make more informed mix decisions, good luck!


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## jononotbono (Nov 30, 2020)

PaulieDC said:


> Honey, I NEED these $4,000 speakers and headphones", lol...



It’s a tough sell for sure. However, just say at least it’s not a Heroin addiction you’re feeding. 😂


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## LudovicVDP (Nov 30, 2020)

pranitkhedekar said:


> Can you tell more about this? I'm using headphones for almost everything Composing/Producing/Mixing and I thought I was the only one who is facing this issue but I hear sounds more on my right ear than left.



Been like this since the day I'm born.
I've got a pretty good right ear that always compensates. But that's not possible with a headphone obviously.
It's not that often that I have fully panned instruments that can only be heard from one side, so I can generally hear if I'm completely off or not.
But switching the headphone from time to time always gives me the impression that I'm hearing another track/mix. Very confusing. What sounded good on the left side needs to be tamed sometimes, when heard with the other ear.
I definitely use speakers at some point (be it in the studio, in the car, wherever) to check the sound so that my right ear can judge both sides.

I guess it's still easier for me than if you would lose 40 db in one ear overnight. I've had 37 years to get used to it  (not always simple though, but that's another story and I don't think anobody wants to read the story of my ears so I won't develop :-D )


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## Sunny Schramm (Nov 30, 2020)

PaulieDC said:


> Posting this here because it's related to mixing kinda sorta...
> 
> I run an RME Babyface Pro with Sennheiser 650s and for me that combo is _perfecto_. When I play libraries like Garritan CFX or Spitfire Chamber Strings, it sounds incredible in the cans. BUT, when I play through my iLoud MTMs (calibrated with the mic), it just sounds so boxy and mid heavy. The Garritan for example doesn't sound jaw-dropping like in the cans, it sounds like a mid-heavy not-so-great piano patch. The weird thing is, a commercial track sound incredible through the MTMs, everything from a Norman Brown jazz track to Glenn Miller to Mozart.
> 
> Am I basically expecting too much from a $700 pair of near-fields? Should I be thinking in the range of Genelec 8030s through Focal Solo6 Be's? I used TotalMixFX to EQ the output a bit, just a wide(ish) Q with a 2-3db cut at 600Hz and 2.5KHz and that did help, but I'm still not getting the "you've got to be kidding me" awesome sound like with the 650s. Probably why I always mix with HPs. Anyway, whattya think?



The HD650 is not a neutral studio-headphone like a DT1990 Pro for example. The Sennheiser is a high-end hifi headphone - much colored to sound just beautiful. I like these kind of headphones for hearing music or to create first ideas for a song - with the beautiful sound just for inspiration. But on your studio-monitors or studio-headphone for mix and mastering, it HAS to sound kind of bad - or better: "neutral". If you mix on your HD650 it will sound perfect to you with them - but it will sound not on the most other soundsystems out there. If you want to produce music you should get a studio-headphone for that. And the HD650 for your living room, bed or wherever you listen to music... 

And to the "room"-topic - if you want to hear the real sound of your monitors without room-optimization: bring your hands like a shell behind your ears - so most reflections from behind will not get to you ears and the sound from your monitors will get better into your ears. Most people I showed that trick were perplex and excited


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## DS_Joost (Nov 30, 2020)

Everytime I hear this I wonder whether I've got some superhuman ears or something. I have my small studio in my living room. I have those aforementioned isoACOUSTICS stands, and I have Sonarworks Reference. I am mixing on Behringer Truth b2031P speakers hooked up to a Behringer amp, going through a 16 year old M-Audio Fast Track Pro, which would (according to all those ''pros'' at Gearslutz) give me the worst sound in the world. To top it off, my room is untreated. And yet, I've mixed and mastered the sound for a couple albums, my own film work, and a short film that got send all over the world and sounded fantastic in any cinema it was played back at.

And yet, it was mixed in an untreated room. With calibration software, on apparently really, really crappy speakers (not my words, other's).

I believe learning your speakers and your room (coupled with some calibration and good placement) you could mix on almost anything, really.


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## PaulieDC (Nov 30, 2020)

Sunny Schramm said:


> The HD650 is not a neutral studio-headphone like a DT1990 Pro for example. The Sennheiser is a high-end hifi headphone - much colored to sound just beautiful. I like these kind of headphones for hearing music or to create first ideas for a song - with the beautiful sound just for inspiration. But on your studio-monitors or studio-headphone for mix and mastering, it HAS to sound kind of bad - or better: "neutral". If you mix on your HD650 it will sound perfect to you with them - but it will sound not on the most other soundsystems out there. If you want to produce music you should get a studio-headphone for that. And the HD650 for your living room, bed or wherever you listen to music...
> 
> And to the "room"-topic - if you want to hear the real sound of your monitors without room-optimization: bring your hands like a shell behind your ears - so most reflections from behind will not get to you ears and the sound from your monitors will get better into your ears. Most people I showed that trick were perplex and excited


I will try that!

Clarification: I did post this in the Mixing/Post Production thread because youze guyz & galz know reproduction the best. Right now I'm in all-out composition-learning mode, so what I'm REALLY after is to fire up a CFX or Chamber String patch and play/noodle/work out parts for composing. THAT'S why I'm in love with the sound of the 650s, the Garritan piano in those with the Abbey Road room sound is bonkers. I don't do much on the mixing side at the moment other than some vocal/piano groups at our church that I record multitrack, and even that is non-existent since our family has chosen to stay put for quite some time now. So ultimately I'm trying to get a live piano sound in the monitors that comes somewhat near the cans. Thing is, I'm saving this thread because the amount of info you all have posted in response has been EXCELLENT, so appreciate the input. Now I have some info to use to start working on my room, as best as it can be worked on. At some point I'll BE mixing the stuff I write... it just needs to be worthy to mix. That bus hasn't shown up yet.


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## PaulieDC (Nov 30, 2020)

DS_Joost said:


> *I believe learning your speakers and your room (coupled with some calibration and good placement) you could mix on almost anything, really.*


*BINGO!*


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## PaulieDC (Nov 30, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> No problem, they have a free demo so it won't cost you anything to try!


I will, going to play with both Realphones and Sonarworks Reference and see what happens. Yay free demos.


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## PaulieDC (Nov 30, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> It’s a tough sell for sure. However, just say at least it’s not a Heroin addiction you’re feeding. 😂


There it is, the solution! 🎉

BTW, I'm pretty sure if you marketed that axe as Luke Merch and signed the head with a Sharpie, we'd all buy one to display in our studio. Might even deter people from walking in and interrupting us when they see it on the shelf or wall... or next to the various controllers we spent a fortune on. #TotallySerious


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## Alex Niedt (Nov 30, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> Since you say that commercial tracks sound good on your monitors, it's not your monitors that are the problem, but the mix decisions you make when using your headphones.


Hit the nail on the head. Headphones (and a lot of speakers) can often be too flattering, and if everything sounds good, you have no way of knowing what's actually bad. I used to have some JBL monitors that sounded fantastic, and that was their problem. Whatever I did, it all sounded nice. As soon as I switched to Focal Twins and Auratones, I could hear how awful my mixes were and why. I have many pairs of headphones, but each pair really only tells part of a story. For instance, DT770s show me whether my high end is too harsh. Focal Spirits show me whether I have enough separation in the low mids. And so on. An exception to this is the Slate VSX, which is the most useful pair of headphones I've ever owned by a mile.

Anyhow, if your reference tracks sound great and your mix doesn't, do more referencing and try to figure out how to get your work closer to the refs (always level-matching, though).


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## rnieto (Nov 30, 2020)

Everyone’s story and preferences are different, for sure.

After working on speakers exclusively for almost 20 years, I had to spend the following 10 years on headphones (production floors at large game studios are _loud_). 

As soon as I was able to go back to speakers a few months ago, I said “f*ck it” and splurged on a pair of Genelec 8340A with the GLM room calibration system.

Life is sooooo good now 🤘🏻🤘🏻🤘🏻


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## jcrosby (Nov 30, 2020)

PaulieDC said:


> All GREAT responses... and thank you all for taking a ton of time to write back! Instead of replying to each, I can confirm that you are ALL correct. My room is not a room, it's a _corner _of our 18x15 office that also features my desk for work, my wife's desk, four printers (I'm a burnt-out landscape photographer), a craft worktable and a 1959 Singer sewing machine that weighs 88 lbs and amazingly still works. No other options right now, SO, some acoustic treatment on the walls that are 6" behind the speakers (I know, I know...), and I'll take @jononotbono's advice and give Sonarworks a try, I already have a good Ref mic. It's free to test and 40% off up to midnight. The iLouds have a calibration bit built-in but it's totally black box... the speaker does 4 loud WHOOPS and then you have to trust the result. That probably works in a well-built studio. I at least have them on solid stands and up at ear level. I have Auralex pads, I'll toss them underneath. I admit, Focals and a pair of Audeze LCDX's sound intriguing, but "Honey, I NEED these $4,000 speakers and headphones", lol... I'll do that after the first ASCAP check.  And TBH, putting a pair of Focals in my current room won't help, I need a new environment first.
> 
> dsoniq Realphones sounds amazing but I'm happy with the headphone situation I have. If Realphones makes them sound better than I now have a wider gap between the cans and my monitors, lol. Since I'm currently nobody from nowhere that hasn't sold a single soundtrack piece yet (and that will be a while), I need to focus on the weak links in my sewing room studio. BUT, I will keep it on my GAS checklist! Hmmmm, may have to call my world SRS, sounds a lot cooler than sewing room studio.
> 
> ...





PaulieDC said:


> All GREAT responses... and thank you all for taking a ton of time to write back! Instead of replying to each, I can confirm that you are ALL correct. My room is not a room, it's a _corner _of our 18x15 office that also features my desk for work, my wife's desk, four printers (I'm a burnt-out landscape photographer), a craft worktable and a 1959 Singer sewing machine that weighs 88 lbs and amazingly still works. No other options right now, SO, some acoustic treatment on the walls that are 6" behind the speakers (I know, I know...), and I'll take @jononotbono's advice and give Sonarworks a try, I already have a good Ref mic. It's free to test and 40% off up to midnight. The iLouds have a calibration bit built-in but it's totally black box... the speaker does 4 loud WHOOPS and then you have to trust the result. That probably works in a well-built studio. I at least have them on solid stands and up at ear level. I have Auralex pads, I'll toss them underneath. I admit, Focals and a pair of Audeze LCDX's sound intriguing, but "Honey, I NEED these $4,000 speakers and headphones", lol... I'll do that after the first ASCAP check.  And TBH, putting a pair of Focals in my current room won't help, I need a new environment first.
> 
> dsoniq Realphones sounds amazing but I'm happy with the headphone situation I have. If Realphones makes them sound better than I now have a wider gap between the cans and my monitors, lol. Since I'm currently nobody from nowhere that hasn't sold a single soundtrack piece yet (and that will be a while), I need to focus on the weak links in my sewing room studio. BUT, I will keep it on my GAS checklist! Hmmmm, may have to call my world SRS, sounds a lot cooler than sewing room studio.
> 
> ...


If you're in the corner of the room there's issue number one. Each surface of the corner will amplify any issues that already exist in that room. Acoustic energy _gathers_ in corners. (Meaning everything gets amplified there, sort of like if you move to the back of a room and you can hear more bass.) Basically a corner is one of the worst places to be, and if you're stuck working in a corner the approach is to rotate your setup 45 degrees so you're listening diagonally.

The short version of working in a corner is this - You sitting in an area where everything meets.

The corner where your sidewalls meet are one set of problems.
The corner where your sidewalls meet the floor is another set of problems.
the corner where your sidewalls meet ceiling is another...
You're basically listening in an area where you have multiple modes working against you. All of those modes then get amplified by the fact that corners are the acoustic hotspot in any room.
And, if one speaker's a lot closer to one side of the room you're essentially listening to a lopsided stereo image because the speaker closest to the wall is being reflected more aggressively than the other.
The 1st place you treat a setup like that is the corner you're in. Even then gains will probably be nominal unless you're willing to heavily treat that area, and ideally rotate your desk 45 degrees. (Which it sounds like you can't...) Either way it may very well be a losing battle unless you're willing to spend a fair amount on acoustics.

All that said, the 1st step in treating any listening environment is to decouple the speakers if they're on a desk. Someone else mentioned this and that was actually the best advice, (acoustically). I always forget to mention this since this is more or less a given step in any scenario... Basically, a desk acts like the body of an instrument by resonating with your speakers.

If you can't do some room treatment or think it might be a zero sum scenario you should at least decouple your speakers from your desk. This alone should at least make listening on your speakers a lot more bearable... It also happens to be a pretty inexpensive 1st step... $100-$150.

Get some isoacoutics or something equivalent. Given that your room's already a challenge don't skimp by getting foam speaker pads. Foam can't absorb lows and low mids, the goal is to put as much air between the speakers and your desk, and have the stands make as little contact with that desk as possible... .

As far as Sonarworks (or any equivalent room correction software)... It isn't actually recommended to be used in an untreated room. You absolutely _can_ use SW in an untreated room, but you're going to get waaay more milage out of room correction if you minimize some of the acoustic issues 1st... The iloud correction isn't black box, it's just a set of low and high cut filters. It's also nothing like the correction SW does, totally different and much more primitive..

Basically buying more expensive speakers to use in a room setup the way you describe is asking to throw money down a hole... Acoustics or cans are your best bet... I personally still think having speakers is useful, even if not ideal. That said you obviously need to make the call and cans may indeed be the best solution in your situation... If you don't won't to scrap the speakers then at least get some stands and spend time listening on them so you understand how they translate..


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## DS_Joost (Nov 30, 2020)

PaulieDC said:


> *BINGO!*



To further clarify, Sonarworks has saved my ass. Regardless of anyone's opinion on it, it has saved my mixes. Gets rid of that horrible 120hz bump I get in almost literally any room. After listening to audio with Sonarworks for years now, I know what good audio sounds like, because I know how to seek it with the calibration Sonarworks provides me.

In other words, Sonarworks only does wonders AFTER you've learned to listen to audio with it on.

Those Behringers are really good, by the way. Or not. I don't care, I know them, after using them for 6+ years. They've got 8'' woofers and they pack a heck of a lot of punch. But, placement is key. At least 60 to 90cm away from the back wall. Got those isoACOUSTIC pads to raise them up, too. They can breathe, even though my living room is untreated. However, my living room is in a modern apartment. Good, thick, solid walls around. Double glass.

Placement is so, so important, especially how far away from the wall you are. I often see composer setups with big woofers (6'' or higher) and people place their monitors way too close to the wall. Speakers have to breathe, let them. This is in my opinion the number one fault most composers make. Cram all of it in a very tight space.

Here, this is to give an impression of my placement:











Hope this helps a bit.

Edit 1) Yes, that's an AKG 701 next to the plant. I use that for listening to really tiny details and because I have to make sure sometimes I don't drive my girlfriend crazy.

Edit 2) I've dressed up my studio to look a little Christmassy. Got to enjoy the little things sometimes, don't we


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## jononotbono (Nov 30, 2020)

PaulieDC said:


> There it is, the solution! 🎉
> 
> BTW, I'm pretty sure if you marketed that axe as Luke Merch and signed the head with a Sharpie, we'd all buy one to display in our studio. Might even deter people from walking in and interrupting us when they see it on the shelf or wall... or next to the various controllers we spent a fortune on. #TotallySerious



I was actually considering selling toilet paper with my face on each sheet. People need toilet paper and even my enemies would take pleasure in buying roll after roll. It’s a win win situation for everyone!


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## PaulieDC (Dec 4, 2020)

So fortunately I rearranged my desk earlier this year (pics already outdated, keyboard and all monitors have been sold, lol) so I'm not facing the corner and just doing that made a difference, I was REALLY in a metal tub when facing the corner. Facing the straight wall now, using the longer part of my older boomerang IKEA desk. Next is some panels behind the desk.

Went with Sonarworks for now whilst I'm amidst composing and tracking. When I get to the point of actual mixing I'll pursue Realphones, can't believe the number of scenarios it provides to hear what you mix will sound like.

As soon as I installed Sonarworks and picked my 650s I was SOLD. The A/B isn't huge but _very_ noticeable. I tried several completed pieces in Cubase and the difference is this: the mix goes from "completed but chunky" to "radio ready". I listen to everything now with it running, decoloring the 650s sounds better than I had imagined.

I didn't have a ref mic like I thought, so I ordered the Reference 4 Studio package with mic for the Black Friday $179 price, hours before it expired, so glad y'all piped up (@jononotbono being the first and @DS_Joost throwing in the convincing argument, lol). Package arrived today, pretty quick coming from Latvia. The mic feels quite nice, not the cheapo thing that IK bundles with the iLoud MTM. Tonight I'll be whooping and booping for 30+ minutes doing the cal and we'll see how it goes. Especially vs the built-in Cal that IK put in the MTMs, _really _interested in hearing that comparison.

A bunch of people spent some time writing or dictating a lot of great info in this thread, thanks VERY much!


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## marius_dm (Dec 4, 2020)

In my experience, $500 speakers plus minimal acoustic treatment sounds better than my HD600. The room is a LOT more important than your speakers


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## MarcusD (Dec 6, 2020)

Headphones good for checking edits, instrument volumes and the level of effects like reverb.

As mentioned, speakers will give you an accurate idea of what's happening in your mix and how you can deal with it. Makes it easier to get a mix that will translate across all speaker types.

If your room is poorly set up and not treated, then it it'll sound like ass and make it MUCH harder to get a decent mix.

Theres really no point having speakers if you have no space to set them up correctly. Having them right up against a wall or tucked in the corner of a room, kind of makes them useless. Espeshially if you have big speakers, in a small room. Better off using cans that are good enough to mix on.


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## Ivan M. (Dec 6, 2020)

I enjoy music much more on headphones than on monitors/speakers. The monitors make me tired really fast


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## PaulieDC (Dec 28, 2020)

Well, I got my answer and the problem solved. I FINALLY had the chance to ring out my iLoud MTMs with the Sonarworks Reference 4 package with the matching reference mic... *TOTAL game changer*.

The built-in iLoud MTM calibration is nice and can get you a quick improvement over factory settings, and I do honestly believe in a professional mix room totally treated, it's probably all you need. But for us bedroom mockup pirates with craft tables and sewing machines in the same space, the four-whoop iLoud calibration doesn't cut it. Seriously, each speaker gets 4 whoops and the Cal is done. I went through the lengthy Sonarworks calibration WITH a tape measure tonight to make sure it's all good, and the difference is astonishing. I was ready to sell these MTMs the other day but I knew I needed to do the Cal first, and now these sound like I had HOPED. I can fire up Garritan CFX and just play and get lost in that, like with the cans on. If there's anything to expose a bad calibration it's a great sampled piano, you'll pick up on it right away, don't even need a full score. And when I turn OFF the Sonarworks plugin on the Cubase mixbuss, YIKES, I cringe. Right back in the metal barrel stored in a bathroom, lol. Oh, in case someone else has the MTMs and wants to try this, I did a factory reset first, I did NOT do the sonarworks cal on top of the iLoud calibration. BTW, I only use the plugin, I don't run sonarworks system-wide. That's probably an obvious one. 

Plus, what Sonarworks did to my 650s with the preset is superb. RME's TotalMix has presets which act as a software monitor controller, so aligned with that I'm good to go. MAN, I'm glad I posted here, I never would have gotten the solution. Hadn't heard of Sonarworks before this thread, what rock am I living under?

Thanks all for the input!

BTW, here's the graph of my iLouds before I turn on sonarworks... and I wondered why my monitors sounded like garbage can! _What _hump?


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## David Kudell (Dec 28, 2020)

To tack onto this, I bought my first set of pro studio monitors this year. I went with Genelec 8341’s (part of the Ones series). The killer feature is the SAM built in correction, basically it has something like Sonarworks built in so you get the benefits of that but with no latency.

The reason I mention this is, even after putting some treatment on the walls, the room still measured quite poorly with spikes and valleys in the low frequencies. After doing some research, I found that treating for lows is a lot more than just adding a couple bass traps. You need a lot of absorption to soak up those large waves.

When you compare the before and after of the Genelec correction, it’s amazing how much improvement it makes. Without it, I would not trust my mixes and would only use headphones, but with it I can rely on the monitors. Keep in mind it’s also doing phase and time alignment too. I ended up picking up the sub because I was still missing the super low end. Highly recommended, although an investment, the correction is a big selling point for the Genelecs.


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## PaulieDC (Dec 28, 2020)

David Kudell said:


> ... When you compare the before and after of the Genelec correction, it’s amazing how much improvement it makes. Without it, I would not trust my mixes and would only use headphones, but with it I can rely on the monitors. Keep in mind it’s also doing phase and time alignment too. I ended up picking up the sub because I was still missing the super low end. Highly recommended, although an investment, the correction is a big selling point for the Genelecs.


Couldn’t agree more. The Genelecs were what I was going to try and purchase next, before trying the calibration! In fact, they WILL be my next monitors, when the time comes that I’m better than my gear. Not there yet, so for right now the calibrated paid-for MTMs will have to suffice. 

We have so many good calibration choices now it seems looney not to use it. 👍🏼


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