# Breaking the monopoly of choir music - We are coming for it



## PeterN (Sep 25, 2021)

Chopping woods today and thinking. Since there are so many choirs associated with Christianity - especially historically - what could be the history of choir music. It must be pagan in origin, thats what I thought. So, with a brief Internet search, could trace choir music to Ancient Greece and Rome. Then taken over by Christianity. And thinking about it - its quite obvious isnt it.

Such a powerful phenomenon, it was monopolised by Church in Western tradition.

But its 2021 now.

So be ready, we are knocking on the doors of this monopoly now. *And we are coming for it. *

.... for the beauty


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## SteveC (Sep 25, 2021)

The choir was first a theatrical face because the Greek theater plays were all spoken or sung chorally. I believe Aeschylus was the first to add the soloists. Then the choir was music history, because all small music groups were called choirs at certain times. That is why there is also the choir in church architecture, because there was also some singing, even if the Catholic Church often had something against music - especially against polyphonic music. And if you intend to destroy the "classical" choir, I will unfortunately have to tell you that you are 100 to 150 years too late. :( Sorry!


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## PeterN (Sep 25, 2021)

SteveC said:


> The choir was first a theatrical face because the Greek theater plays were all spoken or sung chorally. I believe Aeschylus was the first to add the soloists. Then the choir was music history, because all small music groups were called choirs at certain times. That is why there is also the choir in church architecture, because there was also some singing, even if the Catholic Church often had something against music - especially against polyphonic music. And if you intend to destroy the "classical" choir, I will unfortunately have to tell you that you are 100 to 150 years too late. :( Sorry!


Yea, and Im suspecting the choir been a lot more than Halleluja. Can see a huge potential in claiming it back - to its roots. Look at the sample libraries, they. all been recorded in churches.

We need a library with ancient greek choir praising Dionysos. And another from Italy singing to Venus. Did someone do this? Wagner?


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## PeterN (Sep 25, 2021)

SteveC said:


> That is why there is also the choir in church architecture, because there was also some singing, even if the Catholic Church often had something against music - especially against polyphonic music.



My thought is, Catholic Church took over this, simply because its so powerful. And church been keeping this monopoly, pretty much, until this day.

(I might be wrong, on a second thought, I guess Stalin & Co. did have choirs too.) So the monopoly been broken - case closed.


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## PeterN (Sep 25, 2021)

So well.


French Revolution

So music became, in a sense, a tool of the revolution." And it became very grandiose, such as the Hymne a la Victoire by Luigi Cherubini. Hoffman notes that the revolution spawned almost 3,000 popular songs, including the prominent hit of 1790 called "*Ca ira" ("It'll be fine")* which people sang in the streets

Soviet

1928 - present

The *Alexandrov Ensemble* (Russian: Ансамбль Александрова, tr. _Ansambl Aleksandrova_; commonly known as the *Red Army Choir* in Western Europe) is an official army choir of the Russian armed forces. Founded during the Soviet era, the ensemble consists of a male choir, an orchestra, and a dance ensemble.

---

et cetera

*I thought*, the church still owned the choir music, but the thought of today was wrong. Since I dont drink alcohol anymore, these ideas can show up, when chopping woods. They used to come when drinking beer.



Adios


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## Gene Pool (Sep 25, 2021)

You don't know what you're talking about. The pinnacle of choral music is that of J.S. Bach, who was a Protestant (Lutheran).


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## CatComposer (Sep 25, 2021)

PeterN said:


> Chopping woods today and thinking. Since there are so many choirs associated with Christianity - especially historically - what could be the history of choir music. It must be pagan in origin, thats what I thought. So, with a brief Internet search, could trace choir music to Ancient Greece and Rome. Then taken over by Christianity. And thinking about it - its quite obvious isnt it.
> 
> Such a powerful phenomenon, it was monopolised by Church in Western tradition.
> 
> ...


If you study more history, you'll find centuries before Ancient Greece existed, the Jewish people had choirs.
"1 Chronicles 15:27
Now David was clothed in a robe of fine linen, as were all the Levites who were carrying the ark, and as were the musicians, and Kenaniah, who was in charge of the singing of the *choir*s."

David was the King of Israel around 1000 BC.
Ancient Greece began around 700 BC.
Rome was founded in 27BC

And since Jesus Christ was Jewish, Christianity is an extension of the Jewish faith.
The Christian Bible contains the Old Testament, which is the writings of the ancient Jewish prophets.

I don't think Christians ever had a monopoly on choirs, but there are more songs and books on the subject of God than any other subject, because it is the most meaningful and brings hope to the human race. And in times of great darkness, hope is the most beautiful thing.

The subject of romantic "love" comes a distant second place.


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## PeterN (Sep 25, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> You don't know what you're talking about. The pinnacle of choral music is that of J.S. Bach, who was a Protestant (Lutheran).


Nah. ...used the word *Church*. Steven C took it to Catholic Church, and thats where it picked up. I replied to him with the word catholic, just to simplify it (since he used it). But probably first on list of Bishop of Rome, what to take control of, was, what were the *pagan choirs*.  Only then, once the powerful choirs, were *controlled*, they went for the hills of the traditional worship. Then they sacked choirs of Greece. Now it was property of Church - the choir belonged to the Church.

I checked Eric Whitaker, too, I thought its probably a church figure, but it seems not?

This was the _chopping wood thought_, (of today) but theres always a pinch of truth in them. But this time it will not make a thesis.


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## Gene Pool (Sep 25, 2021)

PeterN said:


> Nah. ...used the word *Church*. Steven C took it to Catholic Church, and thats where it picked up. I replied to him with the word catholic, just to simplify it (since he used it). But probably first on list of Bishop of Rome, what to take control of, was, what were the *pagan choirs*.  Only then, once the powerful choirs, were *controlled*, they went for the hills of the traditional worship. Then they sacked choirs of Greece. Now it was property of Church - the choir belonged to the Church.


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## PeterN (Sep 25, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> If you study more history, you'll find centuries before Ancient Greece existed, the Jewish people had choirs.
> "1 Chronicles 15:27
> Now David was clothed in a robe of fine linen, as were all the Levites who were carrying the ark, and as were the musicians, and Kenaniah, who was in charge of the singing of the *choir*s."
> 
> ...


Yes, most likely before Greece and Rome. Depends on definition too - sure they were singing in Sumer too. 

But how come the Christian church has such a monopoly on the phenomenon in West?


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## PeterN (Sep 25, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


>



Why dont you throw in your thought, Gene, why Christian church got such a monopoly on choirs?

The section is "general musings" after all. No thesis needed. Preferably not.


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## Kevin Fortin (Sep 25, 2021)

In ancient times small groups of people might chant together to summon gods or beings whom they considered to be gods.

In some coastal regions, this practice ended abruptly when The Kraken got tired of it and the people didn't listen to his relatively polite request to knock it off.


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## CatComposer (Sep 25, 2021)

PeterN said:


> Yes, most likely before Greece and Rome. Depends on definition too - sure they were singing in Sumer too.
> 
> But how come the Christian church has such a monopoly on the phenomenon in West?


Probably because it's by far the biggest belief system at 2.7 Billion followers.
And singing is one of the main activities done in church.
Everyone in church sings every week, and choirs are very common.
Churches have hymnbooks and other songbooks with hundreds of songs about the Christian faith, so there is plenty of material for choirs to sing.

On the other hand, what would an atheist church sing about?


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## PeterN (Sep 25, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> Probably because it's by far the biggest belief system at 2.7 Billion followers.
> And singing is one of the main activities done in church.
> Everyone in church sings every week, and choirs are very common.
> Churches have hymnbooks and other songbooks with hundreds of songs about the Christian faith, so there is plenty of material for choirs to sing.
> ...



Its possible.

I was thinking - while chopping the woods - the choir is something - that can be - spiritually very powerful, and thus, must be controlled. And thats how it ended up in hands of church.

Or maybe they just took use of it.

We could test this with a pagan choir in 2021. The Red Army used it, and nobody was burned for this.


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## Kevin Fortin (Sep 25, 2021)

Good luck organizing a pagan choir. I think the church is going to win this one.

As for spirituality, I'm not sure that actually exists other than as a preference for and enjoyment of certain special flavors of emotional responses which can be stimulated in our incarnations.


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## szczaw (Sep 25, 2021)

PeterN said:


> My thought is, Catholic Church took over this, simply because its so powerful. And church been keeping this monopoly, pretty much, until this day.


The CC took over choir music ? How so ? As far as I know, the CC dictated how music suppose to sound during the liturgy. What does that have to do with choral music in general ?


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## nolotrippen (Sep 25, 2021)

I've sung in choirs in church, on stage, outdoors, small choirs, big choirs, religious, secular, conducted choirs, arranged for choirs, and I have no idea what the OP is on about. But I'm looking forward to another choir. Got money to burn.


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## Gene Pool (Sep 25, 2021)

PeterN said:


> But how come the Christian church has such a monopoly on the phenomenon in West?


Cuz God gave Christianity Bach, Handel, Vivaldi, Tallis, Palestrina, Haydn, Mozart, et al infinitum, and shut pagans out of the sublime perfection and transcendent beauty resulting therefrom.

It hurts, don't it?

Meanwhile, Apollo never delivered squat (unless you count that silly 1971 Coke commercial), but with you on the job he'll prolly get right on it.

Be sure and let me know when the pagans have their answer to the Bach _Christmas Oratorio _or any other of thousands of works I'm spoilt for choice to name.


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## szczaw (Sep 25, 2021)

Perhaps the CC took over organ music as well


PeterN said:


> Its possible.
> 
> I was thinking - while chopping the woods - the choir is something - that can be - spiritually very powerful, and thus, must be controlled. And thats how it ended up in hands of church.


Rhythm is also powerful, yet it's completely absent in 'church music'. There are also no flutes, since they were used during pagan festivities and were deemed to have frivolous sound.


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## NoamL (Sep 25, 2021)

I'm curious, what's the point of writing pagan music? What's your goal here?



Gene Pool said:


> Cuz God gave Christianity Bach, Handel, Vivaldi, Tallis, Palestrina, Haydn, Mozart, et al infinitum, and shut pagans out of the sublime perfection and transcendent beauty that resulted therefrom.


How do you know man? Maybe the Celtric druids sang beautiful music, or maybe their music was just chanting bullshit, nobody knows because it's all been lost or destroyed. We don't even really know what they believed or what their rituals were except via piece-meal hearsay in Roman texts. Even less is known about what the Norse believed and practiced before they came into contact with Christianity.


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## David Cuny (Sep 25, 2021)

PeterN said:


> Such a powerful phenomenon, it was monopolised by Church in Western tradition.
> 
> But its 2021 now.
> 
> ...


I don't see evidence that the Western Church has or had exclusive possession or control of choral music.

Doing something _well_ isn't the same as having a monopoly on it.

And why must music be "pagan" in origin? 

Sure, liturgical music that's not Judeo-Christian would be considered to be "pagan".

But that presumes the music to be _liturgical_, Do you really think that the chorus in a Greek play is _liturgical_?


Then again, if that idea inspires you to write beautiful choral music, go for it.


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## CT (Sep 25, 2021)

I was just thinking the forum needed a new dumb thread to spice things up.


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## PeterN (Sep 25, 2021)

NoamL said:


> I'm curious, what's the point of writing pagan music? What's your goal here?


Working on my first opera (short track perspective), and it is switching to paganism. Its partly a *subconscious* *project*. I could feel the power of the choir. Its almost like the Oracle of Delphi Choir, is still around, but the voice has been taken and banned. It was a realisation, that the choir is more than a church choir. From a spiritual point of view. And that the choir is very powerful as "pagan". Still today.

---

For anyone wondering, this thread was not meant to be serious in the first place. About right or wrong. Its beyond right and wrong.


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## PeterN (Sep 25, 2021)

David Cuny said:


> I don't see evidence that the Western Church has or had exclusive possession or control of choral music.
> 
> Doing something _well_ isn't the same as having a monopoly on it.


Maybe


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## PeterN (Sep 25, 2021)

szczaw said:


> The CC took over choir music ? How so ? As far as I know, the CC dictated how music suppose to sound during the liturgy. What does that have to do with choral music in general ?



The definition from Britannica.

_Choral music, music sung by a choir with two or more voices assigned to each part. Choral music is necessarily polyphonal—i.e., consisting of two or more autonomous vocal lines. It has a long history in European church music._

---

Apart from that definition, just an overview of history, shows choral music and church firm symbiotic relationship. Only recently its been secularised.

Which is why, we still have so many church choirs. For me this thread is pretty much case closed, but you know, the question remains, will society allow pagan choirs yet. Like we used to have. Probably in San Fransisco, but would they allow it in Rome or Thessaloniki?


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## PeterN (Sep 25, 2021)

szczaw said:


> Perhaps the CC took over organ music as well
> 
> Rhythm is also powerful, yet it's completely absent in 'church music'. There are also no flutes, since they were used during pagan festivities and were deemed to have frivolous sound.


Very good point about rhythm - but was it allowed? At least in the military. And when the King arrived.

We used to have shaman drums here in North Europe, but theres only one or two dusty left in museums. Rest were destroyed.

(Interesting point about flute btw)


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## Gene Pool (Sep 25, 2021)

szczaw said:


> Perhaps the CC took over organ music as well.


Huh?


szczaw said:


> Rhythm is also powerful, yet it's completely absent in 'church music'.


Whut?


szczaw said:


> There are also no flutes, since they were used during pagan festivities and were deemed to have frivolous sound.


Come again?


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## Gerbil (Sep 25, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> Cuz God gave Christianity Bach, Handel, Vivaldi, Tallis, Palestrina, Haydn, Mozart, et al infinitum, and shut pagans out of the sublime perfection and transcendent beauty resulting therefrom.


Or humans with great imaginations and exceptional skills wrote beautiful music to honour an imaginary supernatural being they'd been indocrinated to believe in.


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## David Cuny (Sep 26, 2021)

PeterN said:


> _Choral music, music sung by a choir with two or more voices assigned to each part. Choral music is necessarily polyphonal—i.e., consisting of two or more autonomous vocal lines. It has a long history in European church music._


It must come as a shock to those poor Renaissance choirs that their music isn't choral because scholars decided that plainchant music didn't make the cut. Good thing they're all dead. 

Perhaps the _real_ reason the Western Church had a "monopoly" on choral music was because choral music sounds best in a church or cathedral with a massive reverb.

If the local theaters or taverns had invested in a decent echo chamber, perhaps choral madrigals could have developed as a successful secular response to the liturgical plainsong of the day.

_What? Choral madrigals were a real thing? How could this be, with the Western Church holding a monopoly on choral music? _


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## PeterN (Sep 26, 2021)

David Cuny said:


> Perhaps the _real_ reason the Western Church had a "monopoly" on choral music was because choral music sounds best in a church or cathedral with a massive reverb.



Yes, they had the ancient reverb.


_"Choral music of the Renaissance was *an extension of the Gregorian chant*. It was sung a cappella and sung in Latin."_


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## SteveC (Sep 26, 2021)

PeterN said:


> We need a library with ancient greek choir praising Dionysos. And another from Italy singing to Venus. Did someone do this? Wagner?



Nobody knows exactly whether these choirs (chorós) were spoken or sung. There were some authors who used these Greek-style choirs in their pieces, for example Max Frisch in "Bidermann und die Brandstifter". The Viennese composer Vosecek, for example, tried to set these spoken choirs to music in his opera of the same name. Some composers have come up with such ideas!



PeterN said:


> Nah. ...used the word *Church*. Steven C took it to Catholic Church, and thats where it picked up. I replied to him with the word catholic, just to simplify it (since he used it). But probably first on list of



As I told you: the Catholic Church often had a problem with music. That is the reason why there are not so many Catholic musical masses and why these, for example by Mozart, are relatively short. The Protestant Church was exactly the opposite, with it the musical mass could even replace the spoken one. One of the reasons there are so many church choirs is definitely the Protestant church. For example, Bach had to write new music for every mass.


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## CatComposer (Sep 26, 2021)

SteveC said:


> As I told you: the Catholic Church often had a problem with music. That is the reason why there are not so many Catholic musical masses and why these, for example by Mozart, are relatively short. The Protestant Church was exactly the opposite, with it the musical mass could even replace the spoken one. One of the reasons there are so many church choirs is definitely the Protestant church. For example, Bach had to write new music for every mass.


Bach had so much music to write, every time he left the church, he could say, "I'll be Bach." 😂


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## ptram (Sep 26, 2021)

PeterN said:


> Look at the sample libraries, they. all been recorded in churches.


Churches are fantastic acoustic spaces, derived from the Roman basilica, made to make the voice powerful and clear. Closed spaces, but long experimented in the large semi-open space that was the Greek theatre and the small closed space of the Mediterranean temples.

With the decadence of Christianity, I’m all for reusing the abandoned churches as places to make music. Unfortunately, speaking for my country, I think both choral music and churches will no longer exist when this issue will even be considered.

Paolo


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## MartinH. (Sep 26, 2021)

NoamL said:


> I'm curious, what's the point of writing pagan music? What's your goal here?


Maybe the point is getting people back in touch with nature, so start caring about for it again?


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## ptram (Sep 26, 2021)

PeterN said:


> French Revolution
> Luigi Cherubini.
> Soviet


As far as I know, Soviet and Maoist choirs are monophonic, so far from the traditional church singing in the Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox styles.

The short-lived songs of the French Revolution were also simplified, intended to be sung by untrained singers.

Cherubini, a freemason grown in a Catholic tradition, wrote music for everything. Revolutionary songs when the Jacobins took the power, and Catholic masses when the church returned to power.

Paolo


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## ptram (Sep 26, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> Rome was founded in 27BC


Well, a bit earlier. Rome was founded in 753 BC. 27 BC is more or less the birth of the Empire.

Paolo


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## PeterN (Sep 26, 2021)

Thanks for interesting replies. Good amount of academic knowledge here. People need to provoke more here, so we can dig more out the interesting knowledge.

Will we see John Williams gather the pagans of Italy to sing a hymn for Zeus one day? That would shake the monopoly. He is getting. closer. Star Wars, Hedwigs, now TRY one step further: Apollo.


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## CT (Sep 26, 2021)

PeterN said:


> Thanks for interesting replies. Good amount of academic knowledge here. People need to provoke more here, so we can dig more out the interesting knowledge.
> 
> Will we see John Williams gather the pagans of Italy to sing a hymn for Zeus one day? That would shake the monopoly. He is getting. closer. Star Wars, Hedwigs, now TRY one step further: Apollo.


Try his bassoon concerto. There's some "Pagan" imagery in his program for that. And of course the text he used for Duel of the Fates.


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## PeterN (Sep 26, 2021)

Michaelt said:


> Try his bassoon concerto. There's some "Pagan" imagery in his program for that. And of course the text he used for Duel of the Fates.


Yes, but he cannot choose Hobbits for the test. The primarily target should be Apollo, secondary target Dionysos, and not to forget, the Orphic Hymns. With pagan choirs. If he can do that, we can declare the* choir monopoly* is over.


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## Bernard Duc (Sep 26, 2021)

SteveC said:


> Nobody knows exactly whether these choirs (chorós) were spoken or sung. There were some authors who used these Greek-style choirs in their pieces, for example Max Frisch in "Bidermann und die Brandstifter". The Viennese composer Vosecek, for example, tried to set these spoken choirs to music in his opera of the same name. Some composers have come up with such ideas!
> 
> 
> 
> As I told you: the Catholic Church often had a problem with music. That is the reason why there are not so many Catholic musical masses and why these, for example by Mozart, are relatively short. The Protestant Church was exactly the opposite, with it the musical mass could even replace the spoken one. One of the reasons there are so many church choirs is definitely the Protestant church. For example, Bach had to write new music for every mass.


Actually in Bach time it was the opposite. Which is why Bach was just writing chorals for liturgical use (the cantatas are not for liturgical use). One of the reasons why the Protestant reformation happened, is because Luther and other reformers thought that the music in the Catholic Church had become too fancy and complex polyphony made it harder for the assembly to hear the words and sing along. Which is why Bach chorals are mostly homophonic in texture and extremely simple in structure. If you check his b minor mass (written for the catholic mass) it’s much more complex, not less than his choral work for Protestant liturgies. Of course, Bach also wrote a lot of non liturgical religious pieces.

Anyways, this thread is actually about wood chopping. By the way, when did wood chopping become monopolized by singers?


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## CT (Sep 26, 2021)

PeterN said:


> Yes, but he cannot choose Hobbits for the test. The primarily target should be Apollo, secondary target Dionysos, and not to forget, the Orphic Hymns. With pagan choirs. If he can do that, we can declare the* choir monopoly* is over.


I'm afraid I have no idea what the hell you're talking about.


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## SteveC (Sep 26, 2021)

Bernard Duc said:


> Actually in Bach time it was the opposite. Which is why Bach was just writing chorals for liturgical use (the cantatas are not for liturgical use). One of the reasons why the Protestant reformation happened, is because Luther and other reformers thought that the music in the Catholic Church had become too fancy and complex polyphony made it harder for the assembly to hear the words and sing along. Which is why Bach chorals are mostly homophonic in texture and extremely simple in structure. If you check his b minor mass (written for the catholic mass) it’s much more complex, not less than his choral work for Protestant liturgies. Of course, Bach also wrote a lot of non liturgical religious pieces.
> 
> Anyways, this thread is actually about wood chopping. By the way, when did wood chopping become monopolized by singers?


Please check the history books again. One of Bach's main works are his ecclesiastical cantatas. The Catholic Church has a complicated relationship with music. Partly forbidden at times, before that very polyphonic - depending on the epoch. Luther's concern, of course, was simplification - but Bach's great masses are a topic in themselves. Of course, there are also secular cantatas that were not performed in the church.


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## EpicMusicGuy (Sep 26, 2021)

PeterN said:


> Yes, but he cannot choose Hobbits for the test. The primarily target should be Apollo, secondary target Dionysos, and not to forget, the Orphic Hymns. With pagan choirs. If he can do that, we can declare the* choir monopoly* is over.


Not sure if you can call it "monopoly"? There are no one excluding any competition from starting their own choirs.
It's more lack of interrest in doing so it would seem.


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## tmhuud (Sep 26, 2021)

This is a great course that will answer a lot of questions here. If you don’t want to go The Great Courses direction you can find it on Audible for less. 





__





The Great Courses







www.thegreatcourses.com


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## PeterN (Sep 26, 2021)

Michaelt said:


> I'm afraid I have no idea what the hell you're talking about.



Im not into Star Wars, but a search for the Duel of Fates text, which you referred to, brings up the following.

_Korah Matah Korah Rahtahmah
Korah Rahtamah Yoodhah Korah
Korah Syahdho Rahtahmah Daanyah
Korah Keelah Daanyah
Nyohah Keelah Korah Rahtahmah
Syadho Keelah Korah Rahtahmah
Korah Daanyah Korah Rahtahmah
Korah Daanyah Korah Rahtahmah
Nyohah Keelah Korah Rahtahmah
Syadho Keelah Korah Rahtahmah
Korah
Korah Matah Korah Rahtahmah
Korah Daanyah Korah Rahtahmah
Nyohah Keelah Korah Rahtahmah
Syadho Keelah Korah Rahtahmah_
_Korah_

.....


The Choir Monopoly Church institution, and the secret societies, that *control the choirs* - can laugh that text away, as some hobbit nonsense. They will allow it, even sung by pagans. What we pagans will target are the Orphic Hymns, and John Williams will be recruited to bring them alive. Church affiliated people here need to prepare for this mentally, we are going to *bring the choirs back home*. When the choirs are back home, Bachs Christmas oratorio will - to Gene Pools dismay - fall into the abyss of a "white guy doing blues at Missisippi".


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## PeterN (Sep 26, 2021)

EpicMusicGuy said:


> Not sure if you can call it "monopoly"? There are no one excluding any competition from starting their own choirs.
> It's more lack of interrest in doing so it would seem.


Not sure about that, the suspicion is, we are about to enter *forbidden territory*.


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## PeterN (Sep 26, 2021)

tmhuud said:


> This is a great course that will answer a lot of questions here. If you don’t want to go The Great Courses direction you can find it on Audible for less.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, the course certainly looks interesting.


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## Bernard Duc (Sep 26, 2021)

SteveC said:


> Please check the history books again. One of Bach's main works are his ecclesiastical cantatas. The Catholic Church has a complicated relationship with music. Partly forbidden at times, before that very polyphonic - depending on the epoch. Luther's concern, of course, was simplification - but Bach's great masses are a topic in themselves. Of course, there are also secular cantatas that were not performed in the church.


Of course the cantatas were performed in the church, but they are not really liturgical even if that can be argued (they were in some way there own liturgy).

As for the catholic church, music was never banned and was always extremely important, actually the mass used to be mostly sung for centuries. And you got the order backward, it was first monophonic, polyphonic music didn't even exist at the time, and purely vocal, even if the organ made it's way in the catholic church around the 10th century already. Gregorian became the official church music in the west, while the eastern churches went in a slightly different direction but with similar roots. The goal of Gregorian chant was to enhance the text and not to provide music for the sake of music even if in it's own way it can be sublime.

It's only around the 10th century that we had the very first examples of basic polyphony, with two voices moving mostly in parallel. It's also important to realize that at the time (like today), they were always the rules, but also more or less freedom as to how to do things. And the rules were usually changed once many people had already "broken" them and not the other way around. They were really more guidance than anything else. Which is why church music has been able to evolve so much and so fast.

Anyway, after this first experience of polyphony we already have the school of Notre Dame in the 13th century with very melismatic writing and a rhythmic approach with rhythmic cells that overlap that is more reminiscent of Steve Reich than of classical music  . I think that's when church music became much more independent from the text, which would allow it to become increasingly complex.

Move forward one century and in the 14th century you have music like the Messe de Tournai or Messe de Notre Dame that start having an approach to accidentals that breaks from the ecclesiastical modes and will eventually lead to tonality (but we are still far from that) 

15-16th century, you have Josquin des Prez and as you can hear in the Misa Pane Lingua the various voices are now much more independent, they start the phrases at different moments, and we are getting a big step closer to tonality (which was obviously not analyzed as a V - I but simply as a combination of melodic movements to finish some phrases). You can also hear the use of cadences, especially the perfect authentic cadence, except that it was a development of the much older Clausula Vera and would never be thought of as a V - I. 

By the end of the 16th century it's already Palestrina and we are ready to make the jump to tonality (the jump is a poor word as it was always a gradual change): 

And then of course we get to Bach. And while Bach chorales were a direct effect of the protestant reformation, the rest of his music is right in the lineage of the music of the catholic church. It's also around that time that more complex orchestrations make their way in the church.


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## jbuhler (Sep 26, 2021)

Reformation music was a response to the extravagant concerted music of the catholic mass, which was deemed too complex and theatrical. It is usually described as having elicited two basic reformational responses, one leading in the direction of Luther with lots of congregational singing, the other in the direction of Calvin with a highly restricted use of music. Some Calvinist sects even dismantled their organs and melted down the pipes for scrap metal, as nothing in the Bible authorized the presence of the organ in the church. 

The Catholic Church had its own counter reformation musical response, and Palestrina is usually classed with establishing the basic parameters of the counter reformation Catholic mass.


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## Bernard Duc (Sep 26, 2021)

And to answer to Peter: while all the examples above are church music, secular vocal music was also absolutely a thing during the middle ages, but it's true that it was mostly solo songs while most choral music was in the church probably for the simple reason that creating a choir or any kind of bigger ensemble is not convenient (even less during the middle ages) and what was the point since almost everybody was going to church anyway? Also composers probably wanted to get paid, and the singers as well, and there was definitely more budget doing music for the church.


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## Bernard Duc (Sep 26, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Reformation music was a response to the extravagant concerted music of the catholic mass, which was deemed too complex and theatrical. It is usually described as having elicited two basic reformational responses, one leading in the direction of Luther with lots of congregational singing, the other in the direction of Calvin with a highly restricted use of music. Some Calvinist sects even dismantled their organs and melted down the pipes for scrap metal, as nothing in the Bible authorized the presence of the organ in the church.
> 
> The Catholic Church had its own counter reformation musical response, and Palestrina is usually classed with establishing the basic parameters of the counter reformation Catholic mass.


The role of Palestrina in the counter reformation is a little bit a myth (some people see him as the saviour of polyphony without whom it would be banned) but it's true that his music has been set as an example when Pius IV appointed him his composer and therefore had a huge influence.


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## jbuhler (Sep 26, 2021)

Bernard Duc said:


> The role of Palestrina in the counter reformation is a little bit a myth (some people see him as the saviour of polyphony without whom it would be banned) but it's true that his music has been set as an example when Pius IV appointed him his composer and therefore had a huge influence.


I wouldn’t call it a myth. I would say the situation is more complicated. Just as the reformation response to music is more complicated than breaking it into Lutheran and Calvinist responses. But they make good stories that help organize and illuminate the stakes of the messy history so they get retold.


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## Bernard Duc (Sep 26, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I wouldn’t call it a myth. I would say the situation is more complicated. Just as the reformation response to music is more complicated than breaking it into Lutheran and Calvinist responses. But they make good stories that help organize and illuminate the stakes of the messy history so they get retold.


The myth part is that he went to the council and performed his music in front of the cardinals who then decided that they wouldn't ban polyphony. There is no historical records for any of that. But I do agree that simplifications are often necessary to transmit history. The same way we put composers in categories, and divide their own pieces in periods. As for Calvin, having grown up in Switzerland and studied the Swiss reformation, I'm glad for the arts that his thinking didn't become predominant Europe, living in Geneva during the reformation was not very fun... even if he did have his own musical contribution.


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## ptram (Sep 26, 2021)

PeterN said:


> Star Wars


Hey, that's a very Christian story! A "New Hope". The Son descending from the Father. The self-immolating Hero living in the soul of all those who believe. The disciple speaking all the languages of the world. The angels descending from the sky. The way of saluting ("May the Force be with you", modeled after the "May the Lord be with you").

And then, the saint that has superseded all the others in Southern Italy, and is probably even more venerated than Christ himself, is Ben Kenobi:


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## jbuhler (Sep 26, 2021)

Bernard Duc said:


> The myth part is that he went to the council and performed his music in front of the cardinals who then decided that they wouldn't ban polyphony. There is no historical records for any of that. But I do agree that simplifications are often necessary to transmit history. The same way we put composers in categories, and divide their own pieces in periods. As for Calvin, having grown up in Switzerland and studied the Swiss reformation, I'm glad for the arts that his thinking didn't become predominant Europe, living in Geneva during the reformation was not very fun... even if he did have his own musical contribution.


Oh, yes, much of the Palestrina story is myth, but his music is also representative of counter reformation musical practice. That latter claim is broadly true but also very much a simplification. 

I always liked the story of Zwingli melting down the organ pipes and turning them into tableware. I have no idea whether the particulars of that story are true, but it’s a neat tale that has stuck with me over the years.


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## szczaw (Sep 26, 2021)

PeterN said:


> Very good point about rhythm - but was it allowed? At least in the military. And when the King arrived.
> 
> We used to have shaman drums here in North Europe, but theres only one or two dusty left in museums. Rest were destroyed.
> 
> (Interesting point about flute btw)


Drums were not allowed in church. Why would drums not be allowed elsewhere ? Every military band has drums. I seriously doubt that pagan instruments were destroyed. Old instruments, just like everything else, get replaced by better or more fashionable ones.


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## szczaw (Sep 26, 2021)

SteveC said:


> The Catholic Church has a complicated relationship with music. Partly forbidden at times..


When you write something like this, there will be people out there who will assume that the CC banned all music, not just liturgical music.  This is because first the reformation, later the enlightenment and secularism invented and propagated all kinds of nonsense and vast exaggerations concerning the CC.


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## SteveC (Sep 26, 2021)

szczaw said:


> When you write something like this, there will be people out there who will assume that the CC banned all music, not just liturgical music.  This is because first the reformation, later the enlightenment and secularism invented and propagated all kinds of nonsense and vast exaggerations concerning the CC.


Yes, that's right, that's a bit misleading and expressed too radically! There were often times when some in the Catholic Church wanted to go back to monophonic Gregorian singing. And the relationship to music was far from uniform and consistently positive. I learned this from my former music history professor who is a devout Catholic. And not everyone in the Catholic Church was ragtime fanatic ...


Bernard Duc said:


> Of course the cantatas were performed in the church, but they are not really liturgical even if that can be argued (they were in some way there own liturgy).


Bach wrote his church cantatas for use in church services and performed them in church services. What is not liturgical about them?



Bernard Duc said:


> As for the catholic church, music was never banned and was always extremely important, actually the mass used to be mostly sung for centuries.


There were some in the Catholic Church who always wanted to go back to monophonic Gregorian chant. There has been a lot of controversy. As far as I know there were some people in charge who at times did not allow music in their churches.


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## szczaw (Sep 26, 2021)

SteveC said:


> Yes, that's right, that's a bit misleading and expressed too radically! There were often times when some in the Catholic Church wanted to go back to monophonic Gregorian singing. And the relationship to music was far from uniform and consistently positive. I learned this from my former music history professor who is a devout Catholic. And not everyone in the Catholic Church was ragtime fanatic ..


And this is often seen as something negative. The fact of the matter is that liturgy is not a concert, and people in charge of the CC had bigger concerns than advancing music expression. If music is too much of a distraction, there is no place for it in a church.


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## SteveC (Sep 26, 2021)

szczaw said:


> And this is often seen as something negative. The fact of the matter is that liturgy is not a concert, and people in charge of the CC had bigger concerns than advancing music expression. If music is too much of a distraction, there is no place for it in a church.


That's right! I myself do not judge such decisions either. On the other hand, I am very happy about the contributions to church music over the past centuries. Of course there is a certain cult around Bach here in Germany, but the "early music" movement is also very strong here. (For whom Bach is already on the verge of being too modern)


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## tmhuud (Sep 26, 2021)

And don’t confuse your plainchant w/ Gregorian. Plainchant is a form of medieval church music that involves chanting or words that are sung, without any instrumental accompaniment. It is also called plainsong. Gregorian Chant is a variety of plainchant, although the two terms are often used by mistake synonymously.


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## Ian Dorsch (Sep 26, 2021)

Bernard Duc said:


> Of course the cantatas were performed in the church, but they are not really liturgical even if that can be argued (they were in some way there own liturgy).
> 
> As for the catholic church, music was never banned and was always extremely important, actually...


Thank you so much for this. I was getting more and more depressed reading this thread, thinking about how I was going to feel compelled to post a short history of polyphony. It was such a relief to get to this post.


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## Bernard Duc (Sep 26, 2021)

SteveC said:


> Bach wrote his church cantatas for use in church services and performed them in church services. What is not liturgical about them?


I don't have at all a strong opinion on the subject but here is my thinking: liturgy is basically the form in which public worship is conducted. I know only very little about Lutheran liturgy during Bach time, but my guess is that it still had similarities with catholic liturgy, so basically it was a whole composed of gestures, prayers, responses from the assembly, readings, and music of course. Now, those things all work together to become a whole which is a form of active worship. The thing is that a cantata, even if not as long as an oratorio (which was used in similar way as the cantata), is still quite long, around 30 minutes. So I don't know if it was in the middle of the rest of the liturgy, or after it, but simply by the fact of being so long, and by being completely passive for everybody except the performers, I have a difficult time calling it an integral part of the liturgy... but that's me and I understand why someone would disagree. 

What's interesting is that those cantatas started with a very polyphonic chorus which would rival any of the catholic in complexity barely a century after the death of Luther who wanted to simplify things.


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## Bernard Duc (Sep 26, 2021)

tmhuud said:


> And don’t confuse your plainchant w/ Gregorian. Plainchant is a form of medieval church music that involves chanting or words that are sung, without any instrumental accompaniment. It is also called plainsong. Gregorian Chant is a variety of plainchant, although the two terms are often used by mistake synonymously.


They are not synonymous, but the big majority of plainchant that survived until nowadays is indeed Gregorian chant with some exceptions like Ambrosian and Mozarabic chant from Milan (who interestingly also have a different catholic liturgy than the rest of the world) and Spain respectively.


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## SteveC (Sep 27, 2021)

Bernard Duc said:


> I don't have at all a strong opinion on the subject but here is my thinking: liturgy is basically the form in which public worship is conducted. I know only very little about Lutheran liturgy during Bach time, but my guess is that it still had similarities with catholic liturgy, so basically it was a whole composed of gestures, prayers, responses from the assembly, readings, and music of course. Now, those things all work together to become a whole which is a form of active worship. The thing is that a cantata, even if not as long as an oratorio (which was used in similar way as the cantata), is still quite long, around 30 minutes. So I don't know if it was in the middle of the rest of the liturgy, or after it, but simply by the fact of being so long, and by being completely passive for everybody except the performers, I have a difficult time calling it an integral part of the liturgy... but that's me and I understand why someone would disagree.
> 
> What's interesting is that those cantatas started with a very polyphonic chorus which would rival any of the catholic in complexity barely a century after the death of Luther who wanted to simplify things.


I copied a passage from the book "Johann Sebastian Bach" by Christoph Wolf for you and had it translated by Google. I hope the translation is understandable. Translating a specialist text is far beyond my abilities. I hope Google didn't do a too bad job. 

"The performance of the cantatas took the place in the liturgy of the mass service or office (main service) where the Evangeeliumi motett had previously been. In the Lutheran tradition since the Reformation, this had the task of deepening the understanding of the reading of the Gospel. As a rule, it immediately followed the prescribed daily reading in accordance with the old proprium of the Mass and highlighted one or more central Bible verses. Towards the end of the 17th century the concertante motet with arias and chorale additions had replaced the gospel motets and after 1700 made room for the cantata, whose multi-part poetry shifted from emphatic underlining of the biblical text to its interpretation. Especially with the texts of the poet-theologian Erdmann Neumeister, the cantata developed into a kind of musical sermon. All the texts of Bach's Leipzig cantatas therefore correspond to a consistent model that is strictly based on the homiletic double function of the Lutheran sermon with explicatio and applicatio: Bible exegesis and theological instruction followed by practical and moral application. As a rule, the libretto begins with a word from the Bible, usually a passage from the prescribed Gospel reading (opening chorus). This serves as a starting point for explanations of the Holy Scriptures, the doctrine of the faith and theological contexts (first pair of recitative arias), which in turn lead to considerations about the consequences that can be drawn from the relevant passage from the Bible for a truly Christian lifestyle (second pair of recitative arias). The text then ends with a prayer by the congregation in the form of a song verse (chorale)."

Original:

"
Die Kantatenaufführung nahm in der Liturgie des Meßgottesdienstes oder
Amtes (Hauptgottesdienstes) jenen Platz ein, an dem vorher die Evangelienmotette gestanden hatte. Diese hatte in der lutherischen Tradition seit der Reformation die Aufgabe, das Verständnis der Lesung des Evangeliums zu vertiefen. In der Regel folgte sie unmittelbar auf die vorgeschriebene Tages lesung entsprechend dem alten Meß-Proprium und beleuchtete einen oder mehrere zentrale Bibelverse. Gegen Ende des 17. Jahrhunderts hatte die konzertante Motette mit Arien- und Choral-Zusatzen die Evangeliumsmotette verdrängt und machte nach 1700 Raum für die Kantate, deren mehrteilige Poesie sich von der emphatischen Unterstreichung des Bibeltextes auf des sen Interpretation verlagerte. Zumal mit den Texten des Dichter-Theologen Erdmann Neumeister entwickelte sich die Kantate zu einer Art musikalischer Predigt. Von daher entsprechen alle Texte der Leipziger Kantaten Bachs einem gleichbleibenden Modell, das sich streng an der homiletischen Doppelfunktion der lutherischen Predigt mit explicatio und applicatio orientiert: Bibelexegese und theologische Unterweisung gefolgt von praktischer und moralischer Nutzanwendung. In der Regel beginnt das Libretto mit einem Bibelwort, meist einer Passage aus der vorgeschriebenen Evangelien-Lesung (Eröffnungschor). Diese dient als Ausgangspunkt für Erläuterungen der Heiligen Schrift, der Glaubenslehre und theologischer Zusammenhänge (erstes Rezitativ-Arienpaar), die wiederum zu Betrachtungen darüber führen, welche Konsequenzen sich aus der betreffenden Bibelstelle für eine wahrhaft christliche Lebensführung ziehen lassen (zweites Rezitativ-Arienpaar). Der Text endet dann mit einem Gebet der Gemeinde in Form einer Liedstrophe (Choral)."


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