# Apple & Intel / Apple Silicon



## fraz (Jul 16, 2021)

Hi,

With Intel CPU's being phased out of Apples line up over the next year or two with Apples own CPU's - There is no doubt that the efficiency of the processors has improved a lot from some of the reviews I've seen.

Having got so many "old" applications dating back a long time now - from DAW software to VST plugins I can't see me wanting to ditch these just because Apple has its own processors out and I can't see how all of these can be supported on Apple silicon! - Please correct me if this the wrong assumption!

New versions of software moving forward may well be supported over time but the old stuff surely will not - So due to this I don't think I'd want to ditch the Intel CPU's

Does Apple have any contingency for this in their development of the translation layers (Rosetta) etc..... Thanks


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## Technostica (Jul 16, 2021)

The 2020 Mac Mini Unleashed: Putting Apple Silicon M1 To The Test







www.anandtech.com


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## rnb_2 (Jul 16, 2021)

Most Intel software worked with Rosetta 2 from day one, some things have been improved since then (like MidiFX plugins in Logic). While I'm sure there are still some things that don't work - I've run into some Photoshop plugins that technically work but are slow, Photoshop has to be run in Rosetta mode for most old plugins to work, and I know that Massive X doesn't work, for instance - but the vast majority of things do work just fine. I was shocked to find that Apple actually implemented something from day one to allow Logic to load Intel AU plugins without Logic having to run in Rosetta mode.

Just for reference, for some software I run regularly, an M1 Mac was slightly faster than the current i7 Mac mini when running Intel software via Rosetta 2 (which is mostly code translation on first run, with a bit of JIT translation). After the software was converted to a universal binary, the M1 was a bit faster still. Rumors are pretty strong that the (likely) M1X SOC will be about twice as fast as the M1, and have a GPU that is at least twice as powerful (maybe up to 4x), so there will be plenty of reason for developers to convert to universal binary as more M1s and the follow-on machines get into users' hands.

We currently have MacBook Airs that are as powerful for some purposes as the most powerful 16-inch Intel MacBook Pros; M1X will bring MacBook Pros that are faster than any iMac Pro, and in the ballpark (for some tasks) of the 16-core Mac Pro.


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## fraz (Jul 17, 2021)

Hi,

We'll all keep an eye on the progress of Apple Silicon - Early adopters though have a tough time with it. If there are big problems with enough of the years gone by applications it will be mentioned here @ VI Control ! - So I suppose it comes down to the communication between ALL the developers and Apple.

From my point of view I've spent years learning all about Intel / AMD processors and platforms etc....only to have what seems like a total change in the standard all in the name of progress.

For this reason there is no way some of the Intel / AMD CPU's are being ditched! - EVER! - But a keen eye will be on Apple to see how all this goes.

There was / is a rumour that Intel is asking Apple to create CPU's for them - Where this originated I don't know but it was documented somewhere recently - Thanks


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## Technostica (Jul 17, 2021)

fraz said:


> There was / is a rumour that Intel is asking Apple to create CPU's for them - Where this originated I don't know but it was documented somewhere recently - Thanks


Seems highly unlikely.
Intel are outsourcing some of their manufacturing to TSMC who manufacture pretty much all Apple's silicon, so maybe this confused someone?


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## fraz (Jul 17, 2021)

Yes probably (more so me - )


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## strojo (Jul 17, 2021)

Simple solution…run Windows. 🤪


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 17, 2021)

fraz said:


> Please correct me if this the wrong assumption!



It's the right assumption, which is to say that you agree with me.


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## gsilbers (Jul 17, 2021)

Might be only me but mostly everything that worked in Catalina will work with new Apple cpu. 
not only the 32 bit plugins but also it seems that’s where Apple started to lay the foundation for m1.
Although Mojave did insist on metal gpu.
But I have old Mac Pro still with 
High Sierra because it’s the last one that works with the virus ti and has the old camel plugins I like so much.
And a ton of 32 but plugins using 32lives app.


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## khollister (Jul 17, 2021)

As Rick says, most Intel stuff runs fine in Rosetta. Occasionally there are GUI glitches (I rarely have GUI elements go missing in a Kontakt lib - closing and raising the Kontakt window fixes it) and sometimes stuff works but is a CPU/RAM hog (the Lexicon PCM plugins are horrible with this). 

The question of how much a native version helps is difficult - the results are somewhat unpredictable in my experience. I have 3 test projects - one with a bunch of Omnisphere tracks, one with Kontakt tracks (Luftrum Lunaris) and one with Diva tracks. Each track has a several voice chord.

Using Logic, my M1 MBP comes very close to playing as many Omnisphere tracks as my 10 core iMac Pro with native versions of Logic & Omni. Using both Logic & Omni under Rosetta only knocks down the track count by about 10-15%.

However, I only get half the Diva tracks on the M1 even with the beta native version. I get about 65% of the Kontakt tracks (Rosetta only).

There is also a huge variation in DAW's - while Logic only loses about 10% performance under Rosetta, Cubase takes a huge hit relative to Logic running under Rosetta.

The Omnisphere results are really encouraging - once everyone gets their shit sorted, the Apple silicon stuff will fly. Aside from NI taking their time, I suspect many of the other "A-list" players are waiting on iLok to go native (EW, VSL, Cubase, Eventide, Liquidsonics, Soundtoys, etc).


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## fraz (Jul 17, 2021)

strojo said:


> Simple solution…run Windows. 🤪


Yes Windows can be run but one or two interfaces run better on Mac - And who knows which direction Intel will now take after struggling with the 10nm process? - If the written reports are correct that is!


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## fraz (Jul 17, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> It's the right assumption, which is to say that you agree with me.


Yes this is a good article - but I'm done with upgrades! - I swear it -


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## fraz (Jul 17, 2021)

Wow, there is some good feedback here and more information so I'm glad I asked! - OK, it seems the situation may not be as bad as what I thought - But the Intel CPU's aren't going anywhere - 

If the M1+ situation turns out well I'll get one but only when 100% sure - Thanks for the great information.


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## khollister (Jul 17, 2021)

fraz said:


> Wow, there is some good feedback here and more information so I'm glad I asked! - OK, it seems the situation may not be as bad as what I thought - But the Intel CPU's aren't going anywhere -
> 
> If the M1+ situation turns out well I'll get one but only when 100% sure - Thanks for the great information.


The Intel CPU's are going away as far as Apple is concerned. I'll wager all the Intel models aside from the Mac Pro are no longer for sale after sometime in 2022. I suspect the Mac Pro will be AS only sometime in 2023. At that point the clock is ticking before Apple kicks Intel off the island for MacOS and app upgrades (typically 5 years max).

The timeline may be a bit fuzzy right now, but the end state is clear. things will look very different this time next year probably.


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## fraz (Jul 21, 2021)

Hi, khollister,

But people who have iMac Pro and iMac & Mac Mini & Trashcan 2013! etc......will still be able to use their machines with audio interfaces they already own etc.....so I don't see the Intel Macs not being used in this context - What do you think?

EDIT - Also, further down the line in a few years - Will the Intel Macs being used be able to log into the Mac App Store etc.... just a basic use - Surely this won't be removed will it?


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## khollister (Jul 22, 2021)

fraz said:


> Hi, khollister,
> 
> But people who have iMac Pro and iMac & Mac Mini & Trashcan 2013! etc......will still be able to use their machines with audio interfaces they already own etc.....so I don't see the Intel Macs not being used in this context - What do you think?
> 
> EDIT - Also, further down the line in a few years - Will the Intel Macs being used be able to log into the Mac App Store etc.... just a basic use - Surely this won't be removed will it?


Apple will eventually orphan the latest Intel Macs with OS updates and that will in turn lead to developers leaving Intel behind due to not wanting to support several year old architectures. If the G5->Intel transition is a model, Apple will eventually remove Rosetta 2 and not support Universal Binaries as well. My guess is that owners of Intel Macs will feel like OS 9 users when OS X became established (or G5 owners a few years after the Intel switch). Everything will be fine for a few years likely, but things will start to get difficult after that. 

Do I feel like I have to ditch my iMac Pro next year? - no, of course not. But I'm under no illusion that I could effectively run an Intel machine for another 10 years. Apple will be trying to force the transition and at some point will not make it easy for users and developers to support Intel Macs. I remember the last architecture change with Apple - it moved pretty fast and this one is going faster due to Apple having everything in place day one. Practice makes perfect.


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## chimuelo (Jul 22, 2021)

Love seeing Apple silicon compete with AMD and Intel.
A good 3 way fight is great for us,
Most recently the Alder Lake CPU scored 810 points in Single Core R20 Benchmarks and beat AMD 5950X in MultiThread R20 by a huge margin.

But the SingleCore score of 810 is a serious slap in everyone’s face.
Its twice the IPC of my i7 4790k which has no problem running multiple resource hungry synths.

Good days ahead for all of us…


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## colony nofi (Jul 22, 2021)

> But the Intel CPU's aren't going anywhere


Its all pretty clear really.

1. Apple are NOT developing any new intel based macs to be released more than 2 years after the first introduction of M1 silicon. Some people took their announcement to mean 2 years after their announcement (mid last year at WDDC), others from the release of the M1 - so there's two dates to look towards. I have my suspicions, but its kinda a mute point.

2. The current Mac Pro's are (very likely) to be the last machine converted to the new architecture. These machines will be supported by apple for a minimum of 5 years, and more likely, 7 years with updates after their final sale. Indeed, with the way laws work in some countries, it will be a requirement that they keep up with the updates for the 5-7 year mark. For this reason, theres 7 to 9 years of support of intel machines built into the transition by apple. They also won't suddenly *not* work. My 2008 Mac Pro still works great. With no support from apple / os upgrades, but it does enough that its useful for one or two important studio based tasks.


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## colony nofi (Jul 22, 2021)

Oh and the new machines are excellent when thought about in the context of what they are. Here we have a macbook air level machine (in the form of a mac mini m1) running post pro surround mix sessions that were done on 6 and 8 core mac pro trashcans with around 15% higher CPU usage in Nuendo. Given we rarely go above 35-40% even on heavy surround mixes on the mac pros, this makes them both awesome edit machines and capable mix machines. And this is with everything running rosetta 2- so through a translation layer. 

All the plugins we happen to run are working just fine through rosetta.

Now - there are of course short comings for composers due to max 16GB ram - but that's changing soon enough.

It's tricky for mac guys right now who need to upgrade. A composer here is in that boat, and is desperately trying to wait it out. I support that move personally. My plan B would be a very beefy AMD hackintosh. I know right?!?!


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## wayne_rowley (Jul 23, 2021)

colony nofi said:


> 2. The current Mac Pro's are (very likely) to be the last machine converted to the new architecture. These machines will be supported by apple for a minimum of 5 years, and more likely, 7 years with updates after their final sale. Indeed, with the way laws work in some countries, it will be a requirement that they keep up with the updates for the 5-7 year mark. For this reason, theres 7 to 9 years of support of intel machines built into the transition by apple. They also won't suddenly *not* work. My 2008 Mac Pro still works great. With no support from apple / os upgrades, but it does enough that its useful for one or two important studio based tasks.


This is a good point, and I think you are right with predicting how long *Apple* will support Intel Macs for.

But what about music software developers and hardware manufacturers? Are *they *going to continue to release and support Universal Binary versions of their software for the next 7-9 years? Some might. But my suspicion is that many developers will drop Intel support once AS Macs are established - probably in 3-5 years at most.

Wayne


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## wayne_rowley (Jul 23, 2021)

colony nofi said:


> It's tricky for mac guys right now who need to upgrade. A composer here is in that boat, and is desperately trying to wait it out. I support that move personally. My plan B would be a very beefy AMD hackintosh. I know right?!?!


Always the best advice is to buy what you need when you need it - not before. I suspect this problem is easier for Pros, who make money from their kit. They can write-off a new computer in around 3 years and replace it. That being the case, a good Intel Mac is the best option if you need a powerful and scalable Mac *now*.

The home hobbyist though often has to eek out 5-10 years out of their kit, and to me that makes the current Intel Macs a questionable buy. I know you can sell them on, but second hand prices will likely tumble once all Macs are AS.

Wayne


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## colony nofi (Jul 23, 2021)

wayne_rowley said:


> This is a good point, and I think you are right with predicting how long *Apple* will support Intel Macs for.
> 
> But what about music software developers and hardware manufacturers? Are *they *going to continue to release and support Universal Binary versions of their software for the next 7-9 years? Some might. But my suspicion is that many developers will drop Intel support once AS Macs are established - probably in 3-5 years at most.
> 
> Wayne


Yeah - I was talking about exactly this with some of the tech guys at a big VFX house. They're big enough that they can call the companies involved and get a gauge on things - and also gently persuade the hands of some of the software companies involved given the high six figure sums they spend each year. They're worried, but in general getting pretty positive reactions from the folks involved - but knowing that they will not be guaranteed feature parity with m1 after a certain date, which for them was 5 years from the beginning of the switch over. That's not long in their world (where hardware usually runs 7-8 years)

Audio hardware is somewhat trickier - in that likely its just driver updates that will dry up. I worry less for a company like RME than I do with Focusrite (having just made a very large investment for our studios in focusrite DANTE, wishing secretly that RME had a solution that worked for us....) given their actions in the past.

We are close to EOL for two of our studio workstation mac pros, but they're doing ok and we will ONLY replace them with M1 once the time comes. A third is unfortunately quite new, but it may end up being sold off early if it means we can go all M1 relatively quickly (in the next 24 months) as it will make tech support for the whole facility much easier (same install for all machines etc etc). 

We only just this week got another intel mac mini - for a VERY specific job - but it was something M1 cannot yet do. That one hurts, but you play the pitch right?


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## colony nofi (Jul 23, 2021)

wayne_rowley said:


> Always the best advice is to buy what you need when you need it - not before. I suspect this problem is easier for Pros, who make money from their kit. They can write-off a new computer in around 3 years and replace it. That being the case, a good Intel Mac is the best option if you need a powerful and scalable Mac *now*.
> 
> The home hobbyist though often has to eek out 5-10 years out of their kit, and to me that makes the current Intel Macs a questionable buy. I know you can sell them on, but second hand prices will likely tumble once all Macs are AS.
> 
> Wayne


Our studios wouldn't dream of writing off a new workstation in 3 years under normal circumstances. The speed tech goes doesn't justify that kind of upgrade anymore - even if we *could* afford it. And the full blown workstations don't come cheap. Either for post (where there is TONNES of other hardware certification involved - and that hardware costs much more than the workstation) or for composition. Indeed, in the world of mac pro's, in 3 years you might just be buying the same machine that you originally bought anyway. (cough cough apple !!!) Hell, the intel mac mini I got today is a 2018 processor...

But I understand the spirit of what you are saying. The economics of "pros" differ greatly between different studios, ownership models, types of work etc etc.


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## colony nofi (Jul 23, 2021)

chimuelo said:


> Love seeing Apple silicon compete with AMD and Intel.
> A good 3 way fight is great for us,
> Most recently the Alder Lake CPU scored 810 points in Single Core R20 Benchmarks and beat AMD 5950X in MultiThread R20 by a huge margin.
> 
> ...



Am watching the Alder Lake leaks with great interest. That's two very similar multi-core scores - both look likely to be overclocked, but thats cool. (Leaker says water-cooled...)
Team Red unlikely to have an ace up their sleeves before Zen 4, and thats mid/late next year right? (unless I've misread / forgotten something). Likely a 5000 series refresh, but 10%? And single core was what, 20% more?!?! Though the leaks have only been cinebench for now. Truly interesting. Love seeing intel finally catch a break, and a massive one at that it seems. Its good for the industry. Most commentators did NOT see that coming.


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## DCPImages (Jul 23, 2021)

My windows machine was coming to the end of its life, so I switched from Windows to Macbook Air M1 as soon as it was announced. The M1 works really well. 

The trick with DAWS is to work around the divide between Intel-based apps such as Studio One and Dorico and Native M1 apps like Logic. 

The BIG PROBLEM for me was to work out how to integrate sample libraries into my workflow, especially Spitfire, which was particularly difficult.

Spitfire Kontakt plugins were no problem but I wasted a huge amount of time trying to work out how to use Spitfire’s own App (which includes BBCSO). Unlike Kontakt which seemed to work fine in both Intel-based and native M1 DAWs, the Spitfire app only worked in one OR the other but NOT both modes on the same system (I suspect something to do with their security). For me this caused problems when trying to work between Dorico and Logic. After a lot of trial and error, the answer turned out to be to run Logic M1 and the Spitfire M1 App in Rosetta 2 (Intel Emulation) and run the Intel versions of the other DAWS (Studio One; Dorico; Reaper). 

I am hoping this is the last I see of Spitfire’s dreaded Error#1 message, which now send shivers up my spine!

Claude


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## chimuelo (Jul 23, 2021)

colony nofi said:


> Am watching the Alder Lake leaks with great interest. That's two very similar multi-core scores - both look likely to be overclocked, but thats cool. (Leaker says water-cooled...)
> Team Red unlikely to have an ace up their sleeves before Zen 4, and thats mid/late next year right? (unless I've misread / forgotten something). Likely a 5000 series refresh, but 10%? And single core was what, 20% more?!?! Though the leaks have only been cinebench for now. Truly interesting. Love seeing intel finally catch a break, and a massive one at that it seems. Its good for the industry. Most commentators did NOT see that coming.


All Intel needed was better IPC, cache coherency and drop the high heat high core 14nm comfort zone.

Higher Watts/heat is acceptable when single core scores are so robust.
Im already building a 5700G as we speak. Having an i9 12900K as a main or spare should be exciting.

I want an Apple laptop, but not until they can have desktop replacements.
Used Logic when it was PC. Be nice to get back to using it as a host.


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