# What happened to Jay Asher?



## bvaughn0402 (May 30, 2021)

I'm not sure I've seen him around here for several months, and his profile seems closed.

I don't think I've seen an updated blog post in about 6 months.

Anyone know what happened?


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## chillbot (May 30, 2021)

HatJay got the big timeout for being a Negative Nelly.


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## chillbot (May 30, 2021)

I miss Baron Greuner. And Synthpunk, in that he owes me $$. And HatJay, honestly.


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## bvaughn0402 (May 30, 2021)

Ah ... I know he was called on it a few times. He was interesting and fun. I didn't always agree with him, but he was always fun to read.


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## chillbot (May 30, 2021)

#freehatjay


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## Gingerbread (May 30, 2021)

That's really rather surprising to hear. I never perceived him as particularly negative. What did he do that was so egregious that he was banned, and account closed?


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## D Halgren (May 30, 2021)

chillbot said:


> I miss Baron Greuner. And Synthpunk, in that he owes me $$. And HatJay, honestly.


https://youtube.com/channel/UCsB_UfHNkilrUBMW16k3ieA


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## chillbot (May 30, 2021)

D Halgren said:


> https://youtube.com/channel/UCsB_UfHNkilrUBMW16k3ieA


OK that is one of the most bizarre things I've seen. Don't think related to our synthpunk, but wow.


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## D Halgren (May 30, 2021)

chillbot said:


> OK that is one of the most bizarre things I've seen. Don't think related to our synthpunk, but wow.


I wasn't sure 🤷‍♂️


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## bvaughn0402 (May 30, 2021)

Gingerbread said:


> That's really rather surprising to hear. I never perceived him as particularly negative. What did he do that was so egregious that he was banned, and account closed?


I'm not sure he was banned. Maybe @Mike Greene has some info...


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## Toecutter (May 30, 2021)

chillbot said:


> And Synthpunk, in that he owes me $$.


Well I know a guy who knows a guy who knows another guy...


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## chillbot (May 30, 2021)

Gingerbread said:


> What did he do that was so egregious that he was banned, and account closed?


Don't know if Mike will respond but from my understanding it really wasn't any one specific thing but years and years of always being a Debby Downer. Also a bit of making every thread about Jay Asher. And not knowing how to post with any amount of tact. Having said that I know HatJay personally and I know he's a really good dude, just don't think he internets well. And yes to banned, search his lasts posts you'll probably find it.


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## bvaughn0402 (May 30, 2021)

chillbot said:


> Don't know if Mike will respond but from my understanding it really wasn't any one specific thing but years and years of always being a Debby Downer. Also a bit of making every thread about Jay Asher. And not knowing how to post with any amount of tact. Having said that I know HatJay personally and I know he's a really good dude, just don't think he internets well. And yes to banned, search his lasts posts you'll probably find it.


That is the odd thing ... I tried searching his last posts and can't do it. At least through his profile. Perhaps there is another way to do it.

If you talk to him, tell him I said "hi". I'm sure he will probably say "Who?!" :D


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## heisenberg (May 30, 2021)

I was musing about Jay’s whereabouts earlier this week.
Good to know he is still kicking about.


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## Gingerbread (May 30, 2021)

chillbot said:


> Don't know if Mike will respond but from my understanding it really wasn't any one specific thing but years and years of always being a Debby Downer. Also a bit of making every thread about Jay Asher. And not knowing how to post with any amount of tact. Having said that I know HatJay personally and I know he's a really good dude, just don't think he internets well. And yes to banned, search his lasts posts you'll probably find it.


Huh. I can think of a number of other members who are much, *much* worse than Jay ever seemed to me. He seemed like someone trying to genuinely help others. I'm just really surprised since I was definitely under the impression that he was a very valued longtime member, didn't seem all _that_ curmugeonly to me (maybe just slightly).


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## Toecutter (May 30, 2021)

Miss Jay too. He's still a regular at soundboard tho


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## heisenberg (May 30, 2021)

I keep forgetting about Soundboard. Good discussions emanate from some of their threads.


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## chillbot (May 30, 2021)

bvaughn0402 said:


> That is the odd thing ... I tried searching his last posts and can't do it. At least through his profile. Perhaps there is another way to do it.
> 
> If you talk to him, tell him I said "hi". I'm sure he will probably say "Who?!"


Maybe his posts got removed, I dunno how it works.

I don't keep in touch with Jay but we are both in LA and we have each other's info. I would say this about Jay (I affectionately call HatJay): he is a genuinely good guy. But, he's stubborn and has no bedside manner and he's kind of proud about "calling it like it is". I know Mike Greene personally too, at least in that we've met a few times, I sort of see both sides. But agree there have been worse members than HatJay. In Mike's defense he gave HatJay a lot of rope and banned a lot of others much quicker.


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## heisenberg (May 30, 2021)

Maybe we should get some, “Free HatJay” T-Shirts made. Start a GoFundMe.


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## LamaRose (May 30, 2021)

heisenberg said:


> I was musing about Jay’s whereabouts earlier this week.


Same here... I always thought Jay as being a righteous guy... good intentions with a Grinchy delivery... but who doesn't like the Grinch? #freehatjay


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## LamaRose (May 30, 2021)

heisenberg said:


> Start a GoFundMe.


Had the same thought for Synthpunk... but it depends how deep in he is, lol.


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## Gaffable (May 30, 2021)

Jay's last post was on 16 February 2021. Mike criticized Jay's post here. Mike didn't publicly say that he was banning Jay, so perhaps Jay's absence from this forum is voluntary?


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## heisenberg (May 30, 2021)

Gaffable said:


> Jay's last post was on 16 February 2021. Mike criticized Jay's post here. Mike didn't publicly say that he was banning Jay, so perhaps Jay's absence from this forum is voluntary?


Interesting. That post attracted 30 reactions. People were in agreement that his behaviour wasn’t cool. Completely missed that dust up.


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## CT (May 30, 2021)

I think (not sure though) that Synthpunk fell in with a... certain crowd after his departure. I doubt he will be back. I obviously have my gripes with VI-Control, but there are worse places....


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## Land of Missing Parts (May 30, 2021)

I don't know anything about the drama, but I've liked reading Jay over the years and wish him well.


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## Frederick (May 30, 2021)

Especially with the Opus release I missed Jay's input. I wish him well too. I hope he'll (be able to) return one day.


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## Daniel James (May 30, 2021)

Hopefully, he has a road to redemption. As little as we ever seem to see eye to eye, as others mentioned, I do believe he always means well. He never really seemed malicious. Even when working for EW 😂

-DJ


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## jamwerks (May 30, 2021)

He's probable a cool dude in person, but was on my ignore list here for about the last 6 years. From my reading perspective, VI Control was much more enjoyable if I didn't see the controversial tone he brought to the threads.


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## sinkd (May 31, 2021)

When you have been around since the beginning of a community like VI-control, it is easy to have an overdeveloped sense of of ownership which sometimes turns you into a "gatekeeper." It's good to remember that our responses are read by vets as well as people who just got here. Wishing Jay well, myself, but sounds like he might be staying away deliberately at this point.


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## OleJoergensen (May 31, 2021)

I wish Jay well too. Ive enjoyed reading many of his post.


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## cygnusdei (May 31, 2021)

Maybe there is a world outside VI-C? Is there?


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## X-Bassist (May 31, 2021)

chillbot said:


> HatJay got the big timeout for being a Negative Nelly.


Thanks for always jumping into choppy waters chillbot! I missed this fiasco as well. But I keep switching back and forth to thesoundboard.com, so maybe I was reading Jay there.





__





The Front Page - The Sound Board






thesoundboard.net





He is always open with his opinions, but would always agree to disagree, and many time genuinely wanted to help people. That said he doesn’t mince words, and can peeve people when he feels they are wrong.

But he was often helpful, so I hope he keeps posting both places. His love of Kirk Hunter Strings and East West outside of HO can be forgiven. 😄

Edit: If he is HatJay, doesn’t that make you SombreroChillbot ?


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## el-bo (May 31, 2021)

cygnusdei said:


> Maybe there is a world outside VI-C? Is there?


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## Paul Grymaud (May 31, 2021)

Jay, don't worry, we found your hat. If you want, you can pick it up at the Lost and Found. In the meantime, we'll have a drink at the club counter.

Otherwise, if someone could have the good sense to bring it back to him... Thanks


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## Toecutter (May 31, 2021)

Daniel James said:


> Hopefully, he has a road to redemption. As little as we ever seem to see eye to eye, as others mentioned, I do believe he always means well. He never really seemed malicious. Even when working for EW 😂
> 
> -DJ



This is an awesome thing to say  we need to bring Jay back #freehatjay


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## re-peat (May 31, 2021)

No worries, people. Jay is in robust health and having a great time. I received a postcard from him last week (with a somewhat piquant picture on the front, I thought), sent from the Maladives where he’s currently enjoying a long holiday, staying at one of the seventeen ultra-luxurious resorts which Doug Rodgers built there.

Not many people know this, but Doug named the golf links which adjoin the Capistrano Estate — by far the largest and most opulent of his properties on the atolls — in honour of Jay. They're called “The Curse”. Which is quite inspired, if you think about it.

_


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## Polkasound (May 31, 2021)

Gaffable said:


> Mike didn't publicly say that he was banning Jay, so perhaps Jay's absence from this forum is voluntary?


That was my assumption. I just assumed he left after Mike's comment drew so much popular opinion.



jamwerks said:


> He's probable a cool dude in person, but was on my ignore list here for about the last 6 years. From my reading perspective, VI Control was much more enjoyable if I didn't see the controversial tone he brought to the threads.


I'm thinking the same thing. I respect Jay, even though he had a buzz-kill style of posting. While everyone is marveling and pointing at the rainbow, he'll be the one guy in the crowd insisting it should have been a double rainbow and the colors are not as bright as they should be.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (May 31, 2021)

My impression is that Mike - over a long period of time - got frustrated and annoyed with Jay, because he’s had to deal with one “tonedeaf” post after another from him.


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## chillbot (May 31, 2021)

Polkasound said:


> That was my assumption. I just assumed he left after Mike's comment drew so much popular opinion.


Nope definitely perma-"timeout". Can't find the post now maybe it got moved or deleted but I remember it well. #freehatjay


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## jonathanparham (May 31, 2021)

He's on FB. He commented on one of my religious political posts. Also, his father passed away.


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## Mike Greene (May 31, 2021)

This was a hard one, because I like and respect Jay, too. He's very knowledgable, and although his need to insert himself into conversations can get annoying, he means well. The problem is that the buzzkill posts get to be a little much, to the point where they chase other members away. I don't think they're intended as buzzkills, but they're buzzkills nonetheless.

I'd love to keep Jay on the forum. I'm totally with you guys on that. But, specific to the thread in question, I'd also love to keep Anne-Kathrin on the forum (of whom he said, unprompted, "_a little more humility would serve her well_"), along with countless other members who don't appreciate the unsolicited _"I have to call it how I see it"_ interjections. When the forum becomes annoying or isn't enjoyable, people leave. I know of several who already did, and if things continue as is, more will follow.

So it's a _"Needs of the many..."_ situation. Keeping everyone is literally not possible, so I have to make a choice. In this case, it's a choice between saving one ... versus many.

That particular thread wouldn't necessarily have been the last straw, but his _"Pot meet kettle"_ response to me (I undeleted it - it's at the bottom of that same page) was the wakeup call I needed to realize nothing is going to change.


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## AceAudioHQ (May 31, 2021)

Polkasound said:


> I'm thinking the same thing. I respect Jay, even though he had a buzz-kill style of posting. While everyone is marveling and pointing at the rainbow, he'll be the one guy in the crowd insisting it should have been a double rainbow and the colors are not as bright as they should be.


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## bvaughn0402 (May 31, 2021)

Mike Greene said:


> This was a hard one, because I like and respect Jay, too. He's very knowledgable, and although his need to insert himself into conversations can get annoying, he means well. The problem is that the buzzkill posts get to be a little much, to the point where they chase other members away. I don't think they're intended as buzzkills, but they're buzzkills nonetheless.
> 
> I'd love to keep Jay on the forum. I'm totally with you guys on that. But, specific to the thread in question, I'd also love to keep Anne-Kathrin on the forum (of whom he said, unprompted, "_a little more humility would serve her well_"), along with countless other members who don't appreciate the unsolicited _"I have to call it how I see it"_ interjections. When the forum becomes annoying or isn't enjoyable, people leave. I know of several who already did, and if things continue as is, more will follow.
> 
> ...


I respect that. I used to moderate a really popular forum for a book once and it was always hard to weigh the "one" vs "many".

I probably never read all of his comments to understand that frustration. There are just some people who have that Bill Murray personality. It can get on the nerves of some, but I guess words fail that type of personality or humor. When I read some of his comments (like the pot/kettle), I definitely hear snarky ... but I guess I don't see it that negatively.

He is just one of those guys you roll your eyes at and say "Oh gosh, what does Jay have to say now?!"

But I find it interesting ... to me, his main income (I could be wrong) is via press (articles, books) and not necessarily his music. So being snarky is not good business practice if you get banned from a forum like this. Which makes me think he is just one of these guys that usually never means bad, but almost always says something in a way that sounds bad. 

The difference between him and Anne is that Jay at least provided value over the years. In a way that (to me) balanced his snarkiness. 

Anyway, thanks for weighing in. I didn't mean to create a major thread on it. I just realized I hadn't heard anything from him in a long while and was worried. I don't envy the decision you made, and can understand there were lots of additional posts that I didn't read that pushed you that direction.


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## cygnusdei (May 31, 2021)

bvaughn0402 said:


> I respect that. I used to moderate a really popular forum for a book once and it was always hard to weigh the "one" vs "many".


It's a question of governance, and one only has to look at the real world to find models to choose from, from the laissez-faire to the totalitarian. I have my own bias (as I have brought up before) that is internet forums already have self-moderating mechanisms that make it unnecessary for moderators to take arbitrary/unprincipled actions. Internet forums are not trial jury where everything has to be unanimous or you can't go home. Minority opinion is a fact of life, and can bring value in ways that may not be immediately obvious.

*gets off high horse*


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## Crowe (Jun 1, 2021)

Forums are a dictatorship, as they should be. We are in Mike's house and we are lucky he is a kind and relatively hands-off dictator.

There is no question of governance. Mike *owns* this place.


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## José Herring (Jun 1, 2021)

OMG people stop with the dictatorship and totalitarian comparisons. 

It's a music forum for Christ sake.

My vote is to get Jay Asher back on board. He's done way more good than he's harmed anybody in this place.


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## Crowe (Jun 1, 2021)

José Herring said:


> OMG people stop with the dictatorship and totalitarian comparisons.
> 
> It's a music forum for Christ sake.
> 
> My vote is to get Jay Asher back on board. He's done way more good than he's harmed anybody in this place.


...No? In the spirit of mr. Asher _I need to call it how I see it_.

But I'm very positive about forum dictatorships so I don't see why you're making a fuss.


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## Vik (Jun 1, 2021)

I'm sure it's already frustrating for Jay Asher to be removed from the forum, but even more so when he is being discussed here without being able to comment what is being written about him – especially since this thread is in a public part of the forum. Maybe it's time to move on and leave it up to the admin/moderators to figure out if/when he'll be unbanned again.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 1, 2021)

José Herring said:


> OMG people stop with the dictatorship and totalitarian comparisons.
> 
> It's a music forum for Christ sake.
> 
> My vote is to get Jay Asher back on board. He's done way more good than he's harmed anybody in this place.



Well, it IS Mike’s forum, and I’ve always said “Mike’s forum, Mike’s rules.” This is one area in which Mike and I disagree, and though I’ve petitioned him to unban Jay (who I consider my friend despite his idiosyncrasies) Mike has thus far been adamant about unbanning him.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jun 1, 2021)

So he's perma-banned? I find that surprising. Seems a bit draconic. He's a hat-wearing grouch, sure, but overall a harmless fellow. I can think of stuff thrown at people here that were much worse than anything Jay would have ever said. But of course I might also not be privy to everything that led to the excommunication.


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## chapbot (Jun 1, 2021)

I think the problem is, Jay is a "somebody" who has worked for years in the industry, so his more authoritative comments are rattling the cages of the vast majority of 'nobodies" on this forum. Frankly I'm flabbergasted he has been banned, but I guess that's how things are going today, what with Facebook and Twitter banning anyone they don't agree with.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 1, 2021)

chapbot said:


> I think the problem is, Jay is a "somebody" who has worked for years in the industry, so his more authoritative comments are rattling the cages of the vast majority of 'nobodies" on this forum. Frankly I'm flabbergasted he has been banned, but I guess that's how things are going today, what with Facebook and Twitter banning anyone they don't agree with.


Well, now that I’m in I have to defend Mike against that charge. I’ve had comprehensive discussions with him and that’s not how he sees things at all. He feels on balance that Jay handles controversy and conflict in less than optimal ways, causing more dissension than positivism and refusing to be called on certain behaviors, which is probably true-but he’s certainly not the only one.


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## SupremeFist (Jun 1, 2021)

I sort of miss Jay; I can't remember if we ever interacted directly and yes he was a bit of a grouch, but for sure there are others on the forum who are suffered to be more consistently, er, "challenging".


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## chapbot (Jun 1, 2021)

NYC Composer said:


> Well, now that I’m in I have to defend Mike against that charge. I’ve had comprehensive discussions with him and that’s not how he sees things at all. He feels on balance that Jay handles controversy and conflict in less than optimal ways, causing more dissension than positivism and refusing to be called on certain behaviors, which is probably true-but he’s certainly not the only one.


I just read the thread and think it's absolutely idiotic to ban Jay Asher from this forum. This coming from a person who doesn't care much for the guy, but I respect and find his opinions interesting to consider. But that's how things are going today - just ban people if your fweelings get hwuuurt.


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## Trash Panda (Jun 1, 2021)

chapbot said:


> I just read the thread and think it's absolutely idiotic to ban Jay Asher from this forum. This coming from a person who doesn't care much for the guy, but I respect and find his opinions interesting to consider. But that's how things are going today - just ban people if your fweelings get hwuuurt.


No one is forcing anyone to partake in this community if they don’t like how it is run. I hear 8chan is still popular for unfiltered internet behavior.


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## Polkasound (Jun 1, 2021)

I found it surprising Jay was banned, too. I respect Mike and believe he's doing what he feels is best for the forum, but I disagree with that decision. Jay is Jay. He's not a rule breaker. He just the kind of guy who looks at a brilliant rainbow, but has to comment about the mud left over from the rain. Sure, it can get really annoying, but that's precisely what the "ignore" feature is for.



chapbot said:


> I think the problem is, Jay is a "somebody" who has worked for years in the industry, so his more authoritative comments are rattling the cages of the vast majority of 'nobodies" on this forum.


I personally don't think that's the case, and if it's alright, I'll PM you with my explanation.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Jun 1, 2021)

The way I understand it, it's not about banning someone over a simple disagreement. It's about banning someone who you feel is constantly giving you (as a site owner) extra work in terms of cleaning up threads etc., and who you feel is not being capable of change.

(I have no problems with Jay, but I understand Mike's decision based on what I've seen in threads)


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## David Kudell (Jun 1, 2021)

Throwing my support behind Mike here. Someone telling an accomplished composer, or anyone for that matter, that “a little more humility would serve them well” is a personal attack on someone’s character. And whether intentional or not, comes across as sexist and chauvinistic. Not only that, the worst part was when Mike pointed it out to Jay, he refused to acknowledge or apologize, and actually dug his heels in. Any normal person would have said “I misread her tone, I didn’t realize she was joking my bad, etc.”

We’re all free to disagree but personal attacks and mudslinging aren’t something we need around here, right? I mean, this coming from someone who has a bit of a experience in internet bullying…including by several people on this very forum…I’m glad someone’s at least trying to keep things civilized.

MODERATOR NOTE: In the interest of keeping this from turning into a mega-thread, I'm deleting lots of extraneous and tangential posts. In this case, if people want to argue the "sexism" angle of this, kindly do so in this other thread, not here. Thanks.


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## JohnG (Jun 1, 2021)

I think Mike is quite careful about what he does here. I think he does a good job and accept his decision on Jay.

I remember the "humility" comment that @David Kudell mentioned. Long-time users may have seen that Jay can veer into making the thread all about him. Sorry it happened, as I do like Jay and admire his accomplishments. It's part of running something like this. It has zero to do with conformity.

I'm still sorry it happened.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 1, 2021)

David Kudell said:


> Throwing my support behind Mike here. Someone telling an accomplished composer, or anyone for that matter, that “a little more humility would serve them well” is a personal attack on someone’s character. And whether intentional or not, comes across as sexist and chauvinistic. Not only that, the worst part was when Mike pointed it out to Jay, he refused to acknowledge or apologize, and actually dug his heels in. Any normal person would have said “I misread her tone, I didn’t realize she was joking my bad, etc.”


I would agree that the incident was worth a timeout and a request for the person to consider their actions and offer an apology. A perma-ban is another matter.

I also believe that longevity should count for something. Like myself, Jay has been here since the beginning and navigated many battles, well before Mike was the forum owner.

As to support, I support both Mike and Jay and think highly of both.


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## Marsen (Jun 1, 2021)

I first decided not to get involved in this kind of discussion, as I'm poor in good english articulation, but i'm pretty aware, that everyone can understand my perspective anyway.

So, I knew from start on, what the reason was, Jay got banned.
I knew, cause I loved and surely still do love the input of AKD to this forum and all the others, which really are on that mission: To help each other.

It's the subtitle of this forum: Musicians help musicians.
It's not: Musicians fighting musicians right? 

If we all agree on that, we should be just happy to have a host like Mike, which keep this place together in a way, it makes the most sense to us all.
We don't have to agree to all, we can have and shall have different opinions, but that is for f..k s..k not the point.

The point is, that this place stays healthy and alive.
So, nonetheless you feel treated unfair, its a decission made for the community. 


*PS: I didn't received free products by realitone for reviews.


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## jamwerks (Jun 1, 2021)

Doesn't have anything to do with "free speech". The forum is all about enjoyable speech. Gear Space has gotten rid of dozens of people, and that's one reason why it does so well.


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## Toecutter (Jun 1, 2021)

Vik said:


> even more so when he is being discussed here without being able to comment what is being written about him


This...

I think the forum was a cooler place with Jay around. His rants may be annoying to some but he's still very knowledgeable and harmless. I always read his posts with a lighthearted tone, he can be grumpy sometimes but he seems like a nice fella and well intentioned!


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Jun 1, 2021)

Will Blackburn said:


> That view sets a very dangerous precendent for free speech. Free speech does include the 'right to offend'.


Free speech is something that is relevant on a state level, but this is a privately owned forum; that’s different.


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## kgdrum (Jun 1, 2021)

I have mixed feelings about this,I’m not going to pretend me and Jay were buddies.We got into a few mild disagreements when he was still lurking for EW. I hated the transition EW did with Play and I stated as much a few times and we got into it. Most of my early libraries were all East West and it was horrible on Macs initially.I abandoned everything I had from them and moved on.
We mutually kept each other at arms length and never had any more issues.
Moving forward we really never interacted directly. With that being said upfront,my perspective………..
From my view Jay is a smart and talented person and I think he genuinely means well but imo often has the tendency to make threads about him,his point of view & he can be quite judgmental. I think besides the negativity he often brought to numerous threads I think he’s somewhat PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE.
I think we are both of Jewish ancestry and a word for me that comes to mind for Jay is what’s called a *kvetch*. If I think if it a beautiful day ,I will see see the Sunshine gorgeous blue sky and heavenly clouds and Jay would see the clouds and think about rain ,thunderstorms and the ensuing mess.
In a way he kind of appears to me as Larry David without a sense of humor.
I don’t think he’s intentionally a bad guy and I’m sure he doesn’t know or think he’s negative or hostile (on a very subtle level) but I can understand Mikes position and decision and respect his judgment totally.
I wish Jay the best and seriously this is not a serious life or death situation,it’s just a forum. 
Life goes on………….


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## kitekrazy (Jun 1, 2021)

cygnusdei said:


> I think the discussion did take a sharp left turn after my post awhile back, and I apologize for that. But in a sense, no, I'm not sorry because it's an opportunity to reflect.* Your attitude on online forums is a reflection of your attitude in the real world*, and in the scale of real society, country, and global community, there are far graver consequences than getting banned from a music forum.
> 
> I don't know Jay or Mike from Adam, and I'm a nobody. But sometimes your conscience speaks to the greater principles.


I disagree. In the real world there is more pressure to be civil.


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## Toecutter (Jun 2, 2021)

So yea time to lock this thread? OP got his answer and this turned into a public lynching while Jay can't defend himself. Not cool VIC


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 2, 2021)

el-bo said:


> But also that everyone falls prey to the 'distance' that internet communication affords, and that off-forum Jay's probably someone with whom it'd be easy to enjoy a few pints


Yup.
I think about this a lot. Much of the agro around here (and the wider internet) would never happen if both parties were sharing a sneaky round. Also, the anonymity afforded by forums encourages some to present an "internet personality." It's difficult. Whatever anyone wants to say about Jay, he presented himself as a human, pic, real name, posting music etc.


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## OleJoergensen (Jun 2, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> So yea time to lock this thread? OP got his answer and this turned into a public lynching while Jay can't defend himself. Not cool VIC


I agree, Not cool at al.


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## Wunderhorn (Jun 2, 2021)

I have read many of Jay's comments over the years and while sometimes they come across as a a bit tight-wound I would argue that his contribution of valuable content and input outweighs that by far.

Ultimately it is up to each of us how to deal with things that may offend us in any way. Of course there is a fine line and the 'humility' comment was unfortunate and I wished he had acknowledged that.
There may be more to the back story and I may not know how sensitive a forum audience generally is (Someone leaving a forum because of posts such as posted by Jay is incomprehensible to me) - so, therefore it is not for me to judge whether his encouraged departure was the best thing to do or not.
However if you asked me, I'd vote for keeping him onboard, but that's because I adopted enough of a "take it or leave it" approach to reading posts.

Let's not forget (tongue-in-cheek) that he will also be remembered as perhaps the only person in the universe who never had problems with Logic. I can see the afterglow of the words "Working fine over here" on his closed profile page... May the magic of his impeccable setup shine on and inspire our rigs to be similarly cooperative! Peace.


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## lux (Jun 2, 2021)

well, speaking physics, Jay is Piet's antimatter and that keeps a sorta weird balance in VI universe. Now we'll be all sucked into a spherical black hole and will spend our eternity trying to convince the Mike from the past to not ban Jay, silently shouting from a hole in the sitting room library.


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## kitekrazy (Jun 2, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> So yea time to lock this thread? OP got his answer and this turned into a public lynching while Jay can't defend himself. Not cool VIC


It seems that most want him back.


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## Polkasound (Jun 2, 2021)

cygnusdei said:


> But why do people care to go on five pages about a departed member?


The issue is actually less about Jay and more about the who, how, and why of banning forum members. Someone got banned not because they attacked another member or spammed a thread, but because they discharge negativity. These kinds of bans can make forum members feel like they're walking on eggshells.

Last year when COVID was breaking out, I posted a thread seeking volunteer choir members for a song of hope and faith that I was producing. Right underneath my post, Jay posted an anti-faith song of his own. I was a good sport and gave him a thumbs up, but in the back of my mind, I was like... REALLLY??? But that's just Jay. That's his style. But I don't think a negative, attention-seeking style of posting is worth banning someone over. It's annoying, but in my opinion, it's not a threat to the integrity of the forum.

If we find someone annoying, that's what the ignore feature is for. The only people I'd like to see banned are the rule-breakers who repeatedly spew vitriol, vulgarity, spam, or attack other members. Jay is not that kind of person.


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 2, 2021)

You mean, like, at birth?

(i prob should hv been banned already)

edit: I read his last post. It is kind of amazing that he took the comment "delete your other string libraries" seriously. But his comments always seemed to go in the direction of dictating what VI/sample users need or don't need as an authority. In reality, there is always some patch or even the general workflow of an old library that means they may be worth keeping on the rig.
Whatever..


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## cygnusdei (Jun 2, 2021)

Polkasound said:


> If we find someone annoying, that's what the ignore feature is for. The only people I'd like to see banned are the rule-breakers who repeatedly spew vitriol, vulgarity, spam, or attack other members. Jay is not that kind of person.


I totally get behind you on this. In real life conflicts can actually cost you lives, but online all you got to do is click on the ignore button and *poof*, everyone's happy. On banning, actually in my book only spam is worthy of a ban. Because even toxic posts in and of themselves can be valuable in ways that are not immediately obvious, that is, if they are preserved for posterity.


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## ghostnote (Jun 2, 2021)

The true character of a person reveales itself by his actions, not his words.

Sadly all of this forum is full of words. If I'll ever come into a situation meeting Jay I'll buy him a beer. Till then I'll always remember his appearance on The Simpsons:


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 2, 2021)

ghostnote said:


> The true character of a person reveales itself by his actions, not his words.
> 
> Sadly all of this forum is full of words. If I'll ever come into a situation meeting Jay I'll buy him a beer. Till then I'll always remember his appearance on The Simpsons:



oof..brutal ha

Even though it's sort of a given, I should add that a guy like JA does have a lot to offer a forum like this. Any music knowledge or perspective from pre-sample/pre-digital days is a good thing imo. How it's delivered/framed is another story I guess.


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## ghostnote (Jun 2, 2021)

givemenoughrope said:


> Even though it's sort of a given, I should add that a guy like JA does have a lot to offer a forum like this. Any music knowledge or perspective from pre-sample/pre-digital days is a good thing imo. How it's delivered/framed is another story I guess.


The more I'm getting older the more I respect people who are older than me. Doesn't matter if they have up to date knowledge, there's always some grain of wisdom in between which may or may not teach me a lesson. Intellect is great, but it's nothing without wisdom. I respect Jay and wish him all the best.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Jun 2, 2021)

If a forum owner feels he has to “clean up“ after a certain member time and time again, and thus waste his precious spare time this way, can anyone really blame him for running out of patience eventually?


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## Virtuoso (Jun 2, 2021)

Funny how the people who proudly state "I call it like I see it!" like it's a noble trait are often too ignorant and self-centered to realize that it comes across as "I'm a rude, belligerent, arrogant bigot who is uninterested in other points of view!"

I don't know Jay at all, but it sounds like "_a little more maturity would serve him well_".


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## PaulieDC (Jun 2, 2021)

José Herring said:


> OMG people stop with the dictatorship and totalitarian comparisons.
> 
> It's a music forum for Christ sake.
> 
> My vote is to get Jay Asher back on board. He's done way more good than he's harmed anybody in this place.


Hmmm... Disagree with "he's done more good than harm", he's been a valuable resource for a lot of things but it was always always wrapped in a level of negativity that, after a while, ENOUGH ALREADY. Worse than your guilt-powered mother-in-law living with you. Sometimes I'd read his constant replies, always having to get the last word in, and I'd be going "Really? Is that constant way necessary?" But it was Jay and that's him. If it was just for a few months, no biggie, but he never finished the transaction. What I mean is, we all get on our throne of knowledge but there's a point in the conversation where you "release" a bit and keep things un-negative. Jay has no concept of that. I used to call him Mr. Grumpy Pants (not in a reply) but understood he was making a point, but after a while it doesn't matter if it's a music forum, it's a forum of humans that are supposed to exercise even a small effort of courtesy. His "pot, meet kettle" remark... perfect example. Jay was actually on the mark when he said there's others who do way worse... WAY worse, but he had years of his "way" to his negative account so Mike was also right. Jay's reply should have been "OK Mike, I see your point, maybe I've been quite a snob and I'll take care of that. In the meantime, please stay on top of others that also ruin the threads". Instead, "pot, meet kettle" means "I'm never wrong and I won't be told and who are you to say anything". After years of THAT attitude of him thinking he was untouchable, it was a legitimate straw to break the back of Mike's camel, it's HIS forum and he was trying to address a long-running problem that could not be self-corrected. So, Mike corrected it.

As far as Jay coming back, you really think he would? 50% says no way, the other 50% says he would and the gain would be turned up 20+db. I don't miss the negativity... nonetheless, ULTIMATELY, I'd like to see one of ours come back, just play nicer.

It is what it is. Be courteous and there's no problem.


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## PaulieDC (Jun 2, 2021)

Polkasound said:


> If we find someone annoying, that's what the ignore feature is for. The only people I'd like to see banned are the rule-breakers who repeatedly spew vitriol, vulgarity, spam, or attack other members. Jay is not that kind of person.


I agree with you. Thing is, we all have a responsibility to be courteous and he was NEVER THAT in the 4 years I've read his replies. It's not about dictatorship or being totalitarian or free speech blah blah blah, it's about all of our responsibility to be courteous to each other on here. Refusing to do that, intentionally _for years._.. Mike made an executive decision to deal with it. And I don't buy the bit where Jay's not here to comment on what's being said, HE DID THAT already for years, and made some people feel rotten for even commenting on something Jay didn't agree with. The degree of damage that has done to scared newcomers isn't measurable but it's a reality. No, he never did it to me, I would have replied with a 3,000 word reply, lol.

It's in Jay's court now. We all want him back, he's a longtime member, but he has been downright rude at times. I believe 100% that if he emailed Mike and said "OK, I've been a bit nasty, I'll cut it out", Mike wouldn't hesitate to haul him back in. So #BringBackJay puts the responsibility on Jay.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Jun 2, 2021)

I assumed that I didn't see Jay on VIC anymore because he blocked ME. 

I was sincerely concerned, so I talked to a VIC friend about it. She said, "Who is Jay Asher?" That put things in perspective.

Mike has my total support for everything he does with this forum. He considers every decision carefully and always tries to be fair


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## Polkasound (Jun 2, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> If a forum owner feels he has to “clean up“ after a certain member time and time again, and thus waste his precious spare time this way, can anyone really blame him for running out of patience eventually?


To be honest, no, I can't blame him. You're absolutely right about that. But I also subscribe to the theory that to run a forum, you have to be willing and able to tie your own hands behind your back. You have to police yourself harder than you would any other member. Every group of friends has a Debbie Downer or a Buzz Killington. It's OK to dislike their personality and avoid talking with them, but it's another thing entirely to kick them out of the house and change the lock.



PaulieDC said:


> Thing is, we all have a responsibility to be courteous and he was NEVER THAT in the 4 years I've read his replies.


I understand. My perspective is a little different, though. I've seen Jay post in a courteous manner. It just depended on the thread, or maybe his mood. I've seen him help people, and on rare occasions I've even seen him post with a touch of humility.



PaulieDC said:


> As far as Jay coming back, you really think he would?


I personally doubt it. When Mike publicly called out Jay for being so needlessly judgemental, it garnered over 35 likes. That's not much of a welcome mat.


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## ghostnote (Jun 2, 2021)

Virtuoso said:


> Funny how the people who proudly state "I call it like I see it!" like it's a noble trait are often too ignorant and self-centered to realize that it comes across as "I'm a rude, belligerent, arrogant bigot who is uninterested in other points of view!"


Maybe the ones you're talking about know something you don't. Once you say "bigot" you state that other opinions don't matter because they are old fashioned. Jay was always for discussions, even if he didn't was d'accor with my views, we always had somewhat of a civilized discussion. He stayed respectful. I on the other hand have been disrespectful to some extend, which I have to admit was immature. We all grow with time, well some of us do.

Always when I hear the word "bigot" something like this comes to my mind: "No dad! I love Stacy! And she loves me! We'll be together forever! I hate you!"

Oh sweetheart...


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## Mike Greene (Jun 2, 2021)

Polkasound said:


> Last year when COVID was breaking out, I posted a thread seeking volunteer choir members for a song of hope and faith that I was producing. Right underneath my post, Jay posted an anti-faith song of his own.





Polkasound said:


> But that's just Jay. That's his style.


This is kinda horrifying for me to see. Not to be overly dramatic, but am I really running a forum where we need a _*"Post Covid songs of hope and faith at your own risk"*_ disclaimer?

Sadly, these aren't lone examples. I can go all the way back to when Andrew K left the forum because he got fed up with Jay's needling. And it isn't just Andrew. There's a heavy cost to this.

I get the theory that everyone should simply have thicker skins and shame on those who don't. _"Just use the Ignore button!"_ and all that.

Fuck that. The Ignore button is not a solution. It's an indication of a problem. A problem I consider serious enough that I made it Rule #1 in the Forum Posting Guidelines:
_1. If people have you on “Ignore,” then we have a problem. No member should have to block or put someone on “Ignore” in order to make their forum visits pleasant._


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## NYC Composer (Jun 2, 2021)

Sorry-what's wrong with NOT having faith? I don't. I try not to goad anyone who does unless they post exclusionary or otherwise annoying insistence that all share their beliefs, but still...."horrifying"? Really?


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## Toecutter (Jun 2, 2021)

I don't think this is going to end well, nerves are high, starting to see some tense posts... I personally respect the owner of the forum, it's his call and there's nothing we can do. We are his guest here.

I also believe in forgiving and giving second chances, Jay is not a bad person and I humbly think we could show him compassion. Why not approach him and give him a chance to make amends? I think he learned a valuable lesson here... when your friend prefers to see you go, you know you fucked up.


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## kgdrum (Jun 2, 2021)

NYC Composer said:


> Sorry-what's wrong with NOT having faith? I don't. I try not to goad anyone who does unless they post exclusionary or otherwise annoying insistence that all share their beliefs, but still...."horrifying"? Really?


I guess I’d consider myself a non-religious person,I don’t fall into the category of a person that practices the rituals or doctrine of any faith & I don’t observe religious holidays (obviously) 😂
I am about as far as a person can be from organized religion,my belief system is contrary to any faith I know.
But IMO anyone posting a counter-post in a thread like that is not only disrespectful it’s cruel & insensitive. When I mentioned in an earlier post that I think Jay is passive-aggressive,this I think goes way past passive-aggressive.

Yeah I agree HORRIFYING! 😱


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## Polkasound (Jun 2, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> But IMO anyone posting a counter-post in a thread like that is not only disrespectful it’s cruel & insensitive.


My favorite adjective for it is "tasteless" and no doubt worthy of an eye roll, but it didn't hurt me or the thread.



NYC Composer said:


> Deleting my post was over the top. Reinstate it please. I t wasn't impolite, it wasn't over the top in any way.


I personally think the content of your post was fine, but maybe not for this particular thread. The discussion wasn't about what someone's religious views were, but rather that Jay used his contrary views to try to undermine an innocuous post about seeking choir members.



Mike Greene said:


> Fuck that. The Ignore button is not a solution. It's an indication of a problem. A problem I consider serious enough that I made it Rule #1 in the Forum Posting Guidelines:
> _1. If people have you on “Ignore,” then we have a problem. No member should have to block or put someone on “Ignore” in order to make their forum visits pleasant._


I can agree with that in theory, but for everyone out there like me who doesn't have anyone on ignore, there may be members out there who ignore a lot of people. So I still see it as a solution to be used at everyone's personal discretion. But I must concede that I've had very little contact with Jay, whereas you've apparently had plenty. You understand the scope of the problem better than I ever will.


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## marclawsonmusic (Jun 2, 2021)

Jay is a friend. I reached out to him recently because I hadn't heard from him in a while. I told him he was missed on the forum (due to this thread).

Anyway, he sent the following:

"Jay has been made aware of this thread and just said to tell everyone that he is fine, is sorry if anyone felt ill treated by him, that he bears no grudges against anyone here, including Mike, and that the two forums that he mostly participates in and Facebook are just better fits for him these days. His email, for those who want it, is [email protected]"


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## Mike Greene (Jun 2, 2021)

Aaaaaand I think that's a good place to close the thread.


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