# VSL Synchron Elite Strings?



## dhlkid

Looks like VSL Synchron Elite Strings is coming, is it similar to chamber strings?


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## John Longley

dhlkid said:


> Looks like VSL Synchron Elite Strings is coming, is it similar to chamber strings?


Link?


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## Oliver

where did you read that?


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## dhlkid

Jrrshop.com

6/5/4/4/3 strings set up


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## doctoremmet

SYNCHRON ELITE STRINGS


Exceptional Small String Ensembles
6 First Violins, 5 Second Violins, 4 Violas, 4 Cellos, 3 Basses


The Best of the Best
With smaller-sized string ensembles, it's crucial that every musician be a superb performer, and is also capable of contributing to a homogenous group of players. For Synchron Elite Strings, the Vienna team hand-picked the best string players and the concertmaster of the Synchron Stage Orchestra, who themselves are among the best in Vienna, a city famous for its superior string players and their fine instruments. Their performances have shaped the sound of numerous scoring sessions during the last several years, and they've also honed their craft in countless sampling sessions.


Coherent Performances
As with Synchron Strings Pro, the team's main approach was to let the musicians play cleverly devised scores, very often for more than half an hour, to capture all their musicality and mastery of real-life performances as a coherent source of sampled articulations. The captured variants of expression derived from these authentic performances enable you to seamlessly combine different playing techniques and nuances, such as various note beginnings, arcs and releases of notes, into one coherent piece of expressive music.

In general, and with the benefit of many pre-configured mixer presets, the sound of Synchron Elite Strings lends itself to a myriad of genres and applications, from intimate to powerful expressive possibilities, from classical arrangements to film scores, and from small ensemble settings to adding colorful precision to larger string ensembles.




Short Articulations
Like the larger ensembles of Synchron Strings Pro, Synchron Elite Strings offers regular and short staccatos as well as spiccatos (very short notes sounded by throwing the bow onto the strings), in both bold and agile variants - the latter being shorter and therefore perfect for quicker passages. What's more, the small string ensembles offer new variants of one-second détachés - including soft attacks leading into expressive vibrato, and normal attacks with a slight fade. The full potential of these détachés comes to fruition by combining both articulations according to the musical context. Other short playing techniques include pizzicato, snap pizzicato, and hitting the strings with the bow (col legno and battuto).


Long and Interval Articulations
All long notes, legatos and portamentos offer three vibrato variants (regular, molto, sans), four different starts (soft, regular, fast, marcato/sfz) as well as regular and soft releases. With legatos and portamentos, the different note-start variants apply only to the first notes of the phrases, while the subsequent notes feature a smooth legato or portamento connection.

A very special addition are the Performance Détaché articulations, a first for libraries recorded at Synchron Stage. As with legatos, intervals of up to an octave were recorded, but each target note was played with an extra bow stroke. These separate notes are still connected by the Synchron Player's algorithms, for very realistic phrases that differ from passages performed with single note détachés. What's more, tremolos, measured tremolos and trills also offer legato variants for coherent note transitions.

Due to the small number of players, "agile" variants of legatos and détachés are especially precise and versatile, while at the same time vibrant and authentic since they were all derived from longer performances as mentioned above.


Multiple Microphone Positions
To capture the spectacular ambience of "Stage A" of Synchron Stage, Vienna's engineers employed nine separate phase-coherent microphone configurations to provide a broad range of room options. In addition to the front, mid, Decca tree and surround microphones, the first and second chair of each ensemble were mic'd separately and are available as "Solo 1" and "Solo 2" channels, respectively, in the mixer section of the Vienna Synchron Player.

The sections of six first violins, five second violins, four violas, four cellos and three double basses were recorded separately at their designated positions on stage. Pre-configured mixer presets provide a wide variety of tonal characteristics, from intimate to ambient, from lush to sparkling, from contemporary to the "golden fifties" sound. Divisi Presets focus on the solo channels of the first and second chair, with added ribbon or tube mid microphones.

As with all Synchron Libraries, you can mix your string sound in stereo, 5.1 surround or even 9.1 Auro 3D, or any other immersive audio format, such as Dolby Atmos.

The Standard Library and Full Library of Synchron Elite Strings both include the same articulations. The difference lies in the number of provided microphone positions.


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## doctoremmet




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## John Longley

I was hoping for Synchron brass, but this is interesting.


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## yellow_lupine

Another Synchron strings library? But why? And probably with the same 2-layers only as of Synchron Strings Pro and lack of mid-length short notes and with the same bleeding problem of the fast legatos passages https://www.vsl.co.at/community/posts/t56947-SYNC-STRINGS-PRO--issue-with-agile-legato-of-Violins

Why not releasing different orchestral sections instead of continuing re-elaborating strings only ones?
Synchron Woodwinds are absent, Synchron Brass are absent, Synchron Voices are absent...


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## Piotrek K.

OMG! Small string ensemble in Synchron stage? DEMOS! NOW! :drooling:


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## Piotrek K.

"The first and second chair of each ensemble were mic'd separately and are available as "Solo 1" and "Solo 2" channels, respectively, in the mixer section of the Vienna Synchron Player."

:D

@Ben where are you? :D


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## Stephen Limbaugh

Quick/initial experience with it has been a resoundingly positive one. The detache options not only add additional realism, but they are an excellent shortcut for note/bow changes that required more nuanced "programming" if only using the legato or long notes.

Also extremely useful are “fast attacks” on legatos and sustains, different than sFz, but not as slow as “normal.”

Legato tremolo stuff is fantastic.


Divisi options are remarkable, so when paired up with SSP, just about any passage in the standard repertoire can be tackled in terms of that. The solo mics can really offer some excellent options for stuff divided 3 or 4 ways.


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## william81723

I wish they could decide to record the small size strings in a smaller and more dry room... not in Synchron Stage. Ha.....


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## AlainTH

how is it compared to synchronized dimension strings?


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## Martin Tichy

Looks like JRR jumped the gun here... More info on this at 3 pm Vienna time!
In the meantime, here's a demo by Levente Kovacs:








Dropbox - File Deleted


Dropbox is a free service that lets you bring your photos, docs, and videos anywhere and share them easily. Never email yourself a file again!




www.dropbox.com




And before you ask, no more info prior to the release 
Cheers, Martin/VSL


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## Stephen Limbaugh

Oops... sorry Martin! 😬 🧙‍♂️


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## Nimrod7

How people here feel for Standard vs Full microphones for any VSL product.
Do they worth the extra (often double) cost for you?


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## Martin Tichy

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Oops... sorry Martin! 😬 🧙‍♂️


No worries Stephen, thanks for stepping in!


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## Frederick

I should have bought WAY more vouchers in the 4 for 3 sale.


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## jamwerks

Nimrod7 said:


> How people here feel for Standard vs Full microphones for any VSL product.
> Do they worth the extra (often double) cost for you?


Not a fan of their room mics for strings at Synchron, just Tree with close. But will be interesting to hear any "mid" mic positions here.


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## dhlkid

Hope VSL will offer crossgrade price


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## Ben

Piotrek K. said:


> @Ben where are you? :D


Still finishing my morning coffee.
Haha, did not expect this, but oh well...

I'm sure I shouldn't comment on this thread before release, but let me tell you one thing:
I've been beta-testing this library for a few weeks now, and it got instantly my overall favorite library.
Check out my announcement later today


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## Jimmy Hellfire

yellow_lupine said:


> Another Synchron strings library? But why? And probably with the same 2-layers only as of Synchron Strings Pro and lack of mid-length short notes and with the same bleeding problem of the fast legatos passages https://www.vsl.co.at/community/posts/t56947-SYNC-STRINGS-PRO--issue-with-agile-legato-of-Violins
> 
> Why not releasing different orchestral sections instead of continuing re-elaborating strings only ones?
> Synchron Woodwinds are absent, Synchron Brass are absent, Synchron Voices are absent...


Well it's a chamber strings library. Maybe you don't need one, but there is a definitive case for different sized ensembles. Further, Logistics. If you're gonna record strings, you're gonna record all strings before moving to entirely different setups, bringing in entirely different people for the recording sessions, etc. Makes sense, right?

Also, you're making up issues with the other library that aren't really a thing because you didn't get the response you wanted to hear on VSL forums. What's with all the whining!


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## yellow_lupine

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Well it's a chamber strings library. Maybe you don't need one, but there is a definitive case for different sized ensembles. Further, Logistics. If you're gonna record strings, you're gonna record all strings before moving to entirely different setups, bringing in entirely different people for the recording sessions, etc. Makes sense, right?
> 
> Also, you're making up issues with the other library that aren't really a thing because you didn't get the response you wanted to hear on VSL forums. What's with all the whining!


They already sell other chamber size strings libraries.

I am not in search of responses I like the most to hear about. I have only indicated those that to me are the main cons with the string library this one "seems" to be treated similarly.


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## Piotrek K.

Ben said:


> Still finishing my morning coffee.


Sorry. Didn't want to interrupt this sacred ritual. Will wait calmly till 3pm


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## Arbee

I have a really bad feeling about this, I may find it irresistable if it truly represents the sum of lessons learnt .


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## holywilly

Vouchers are ready!


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## iMovieShout

That's too bad - I was really REALLY holding out for Synchron Brass (not VI Brass and not Synchronized Brass) 

Looks like I'll be taking on Musical Samples' Adventure Brass then - which is pretty good for layering, blending and quick writing of scores when up against the clock. 'already got too many strings'

That said, VSL's announcement later is still going to be exciting. But I don't need another strings library to add to my setup, which already has around 26 different strings libraries (many of which are VSL).


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## Ben

jpb007.uk said:


> That's too bad - I was really REALLY holding out for Synchron Brass (not VI Brass and not Synchronized Brass)


Not today, but today does not exclude the possibility of such a library in future 



jpb007.uk said:


> But I don't need another strings library to add to my setup


Let's talk about that again after todays release


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## daviddln

It's going to be the new competitor to Spitfire Chamber Strings.


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## DaddyO

I'm sure Elite Strings will prove to be a great library.

But on the heels of the just-expired sale on SYzd Solo and Chamber Strings it doesn't make it easy for me. 

A couple of weeks ago I invested in SYzd Solo Strings, admittedly at a great discounted crossgrade price. Had I known about Elite Strings I would have held off and used that money towards the superior offering's introductory price. If I buy Elite my recent purchase is just money down the drain, spent for something I would never use, spent for something which, based on prior experience, has no crossgrade value towards a SY library. 

Like some others I too have been waiting expectantly since last fall for some form of Synchron Player Brass. Alas, that will come when it comes.


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## jamwerks

Does the baby have a name yet? "SES" ?


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## doctoremmet

jamwerks said:


> Does the baby have a name yet? "SES" ?


Nah. It’s “Elite”. Noblesse oblige.


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## Thorgod10

Like with Metropolis Ark 4, it looks like many are catching in to the need of studio strings, due to their prevalence in media-work.

If this is the case with Synchron Elite, count me in as an insta-buy


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## TCMQL1

DaddyO said:


> I'm sure Elite Strings will prove to be a great library.
> 
> But on the heels of the just-expired sale on SYzd Solo and Chamber Strings it doesn't make it easy for me.
> 
> A couple of weeks ago I invested in SYzd Solo Strings, admittedly at a great discounted crossgrade price. Had I known about Elite Strings I would have held off and used that money towards the superior offering's introductory price. If I buy Elite my recent purchase is just money down the drain, spent for something I would never use, spent for something which, based on prior experience, has no crossgrade value towards a SY library.
> 
> Like some others I too have been waiting expectantly since last fall for some form of Synchron Player Brass. Alas, that will come when it comes.


You could always try to request a refund, you might be outside of the normal 14-day return window but if it's only been a couple weeks it can't hurt to try. I believe VSL is usually pretty lenient in that regard.


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## Nimrod7

DaddyO said:


> A couple of weeks ago I invested in SYzd Solo Strings, admittedly at a great discounted crossgrade price. Had I known about Elite Strings I would have held off and used that money towards the superior offering's introductory price.


But Elite is small ensembles, you will still need the Soloists from Synchronized Solo Strings.


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## DaddyO

TCMQL1 said:


> You could always try to request a refund, you might be outside of the normal 14-day return window but if it's only been a couple weeks it can't hurt to try. I believe VSL is usually pretty lenient in that regard.


Good suggestion.


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## DaddyO

Nimrod7 said:


> But Elite is small ensembles, you will still need the Soloists from Synchronized Solo Strings.


My understanding from reading the description is that Elite covers both. 

I could be wrong. It's entirely possible that I am, but it seems that the mixer makes two soloist chairs available.

"In addition to the front, mid, Decca tree and surround microphones, the first and second chair of each ensemble were mic'd separately and are available as "Solo 1" and "Solo 2" channels, respectively, in the mixer section of the Vienna Synchron Player."


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## iMovieShout

I'm guessing this (see photos) is what is coming today !!!!
-- Elite Strings --

Exciting stuff. Still hoping for Synchron Brass though (sorry mentioned that earlier in this post lol)


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## jamwerks

DaddyO said:


> My understanding from reading the description is that Elite covers both.
> 
> I could be wrong. It's entirely possible that I am, but it seems that the mixer makes two soloist chairs available.
> 
> "In addition to the front, mid, Decca tree and surround microphones, the first and second chair of each ensemble were mic'd separately and are available as "Solo 1" and "Solo 2" channels, respectively, in the mixer section of the Vienna Synchron Player."


Those won't be real soloists, you can still hear the ensembles in the "background". But very useful for adding to the ensemble sound.


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## Ben

jamwerks said:


> Those won't be real soloists, you can still hear the ensembles in the "background". But very useful for adding to the ensemble sound.


Exactly, but you can get a very close sound if you like. Try out the "Divisi" Mixer Presets, these are designed to mainly hear the 1st and 2nd chair players.


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## iMovieShout

Elite Strings just went live !!!!!!!


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## Vik

dhlkid said:


> 6/5/4/4/3 strings set up


Perfect.


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## Trevor Meier

Dang... this could be the library that finally brings me into the VSL camp. 

@Ben when can we expect non-dongle authorizations? Being in Brazil (amongst other things) makes a dongle unfeasible for me. I’d love to give this library a try!


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## iMovieShout

I have to say that I always like the build up with VSL's releases. More subtle than most.

I've quickly run through the audio demos etc and have to say it sounds good and upon initial inspection the articulations are comprehensive and flexible, with nice dry (and wet) Mic setups. 

But having already invested in the BBO bundle, Strings Pro, Dimension Strings, VI Strings and Strings Fx, etc, etc, and because there is no crossgrade offer to pick up Elite Strings at a special loyalty price, and because I really don't have room in my already full Strings library setup (pushing 8.5 TeraBytes in Strings alone), this isn't for me or our studio. 

Its probably good for those that want a chamber style setup, but have yet to make the investment.


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## DaddyO

Ben said:


> Exactly, but you can get a very close sound if you like. Try out the "Divisi" Mixer Presets, these are designed to mainly hear the 1st and 2nd chair players.


Ah, thanks Ben.


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## dhlkid

Looks like no crossgrade offer


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## Evans

This isn't something I'm lacking right now and would just be a hobbyist purchase (_and_ I'm disappointed that this isn't Synchron Brass), but VSL makes fantastic products with amazing QA at great prices that have long intro periods. Oh, and the 14-day return window is ace.

Well done, VSL.


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## Ben

Trevor Meier said:


> Dang... this could be the library that finally brings me into the VSL camp.
> 
> @Ben when can we expect non-dongle authorizations? Being in Brazil (amongst other things) makes a dongle unfeasible for me. I’d love to give this library a try!


Yes, we are currently moving to iLok (no ETA, but looks good so far), where you will be able to use an iLok USB key or the iLok Cloud (no dongle required).


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## Ben

jpb007.uk said:


> there is no crossgrade offer to pick up Elite Strings


You get an intro price now. And as always it's the best price, even compared to bundle / crossgrade prices.


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## Simon Ravn

Generally this sounds very impressive. The vibrato on violins could be a bit problematic from what I hear in demos (either too little or kinda phasey sounding in upper registers) BUT it could be just a mix thing in those demos. Definitely on my radar! Recording quality is stellar as always.


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## holywilly

Bought! However I can’t see the download under MyVSL yet, @Ben when will the download be available?


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## ptram

Incredible sound. @Ben , are there Room Mix presets including both divisi sets even in the Standard Library?

Paolo


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## Ben

ptram said:


> Incredible sound. @Ben , are there Room Mix presets including both divisi sets even in the Standard Library?
> 
> Paolo


Standard only has Solo Mic 1 (and also misses the Ribbon mics), so you will only get access to divisi 1.


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## Ben

holywilly said:


> Bought! However I can’t see the download under MyVSL yet, @Ben when will the download be available?


I'll check, should be available any moment.


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## Sovereign

Guess no option (yet?) to set the legato transition length?


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## Trevor Meier

Ben said:


> Yes, we are currently moving to iLok (no ETA, but looks good so far), where you will be able to use an iLok USB key or the iLok Cloud (no dongle required).


OK thx for the update. Any chance this intro pricing will still be available when iLok Cloud auth is enabled?


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## wcreed51

So Ben, let me ask the obvious question: What will this give me that Dimension Strings won't, and visa versa?


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## Ben

Trevor Meier said:


> OK thx for the update. Any chance this intro pricing will still be available when iLok Cloud auth is enabled?


I don't think so, but you will get free replacement licenses as soon as we have finished the transition, so feel free to grab a license right now. We also discounted the eLicenser on our website to € 13, + you will get a €20 voucher, so even with shipping included you should get a good deal!


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## packhorse

Shame. I needed a Chamber Strings library and excited to read this. However, just seen the price - too much for me as a hobbyist. Another disappointing day today for me.


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## AndyP

Wow. Elite Strings come very close to the Sakamoto and Philip Glass sound I want. Nice and that might have settled the question of another library ...


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## Frederick

wcreed51 said:


> So Ben, let me ask the obvious question: What will this give me that Dimension Strings won't, and visa versa?


Obvious answer: Dimension strings comes with a lot more articulations (e.g. open strings, sordino, sul tasto, etc) and you can build your own ensembles. Great for endless sculpting. The Elite Strings on the other hand is a true Synchron stage recording that also takes advantage of the insight that it matters what and how you let the players play during the recordings. It's a better fit as divisi strings to Synchron Strings Pro. It should be easier to program.

I have Dimension Strings myself, but I have already ordered the full library of the Elite Strings.


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## Ben

Official announcement here: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/new-vsl-synchron-elite-strings-6-5-4-4-3.108100/

Downloads should be available now as well


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## Steve Martin

Hi Ben,

they sound great! I really enjoyed listening to the demo's. 

best,

Steve


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## iMovieShout

wcreed51 said:


> So Ben, let me ask the obvious question: What will this give me that Dimension Strings won't, and visa versa?


I'm pretty sure that I can get the same or similar sound from the other VSL libraries that I have (ie. Dimension Strings, Strings Pro, etc etc). Seems like another library set to confuse existing VSL Strings owners.


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## Evans

jpb007.uk said:


> I'm pretty sure that I can get the same or similar sound from the other VSL libraries that I have (ie. Dimension Strings, Strings Pro, etc etc). Seems like another library set to confuse existing VSL Strings owners.


Alternatively, it could be seen as a response to people who say

"Dimension Strings is too complicated of a workflow";
"Dimension Strings is too resource intensive"; and/or
"I want a smaller number of players actually recorded at Synchron Stage and not merely 'synchronized'."
I don't understand the negativity here.

EDIT: Note that I think my three bullets above vary based on people's personal preference and setups. I quite like Dimension Strings (SYized). I have no experience with their Chamber Strings libraries.


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## Ben

jpb007.uk said:


> I'm pretty sure that I can get the same or similar sound from the other VSL libraries that I have (ie. Dimension Strings, Strings Pro, etc etc).


I'm pretty sure it is not possible. I've been using all VSL string libraries for quite some time, and I now have been playing around with the Elite Strings for a few weeks.
You might get a specific aspect close to it, but I don't think it is possible to create a combination that will cover all sound aspects of this library.



jpb007.uk said:


> Seems like another library set to confuse existing VSL Strings owners.


Absolutely not! It's a chamber sized string library, but I would not categorize the sound as a classical chamber sound.
It's the perfect library for those who want a string library like the Synchron Strings Pro, but with a more intimate sound and the agility that comes with it.


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## Secret Soundworks

Don't mean to derail this, but regarding the move to iLok, will it be possible to activate the license in iLok normally to the machine, or is it going to be purely only through the Cloud if the user won't be using the iLok dongle? Just wondering since cloud activated licenses won't work if iLok servers go down, had it happen to me with Seventh Heaven recently with iLok dropouts / server issues.


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## Ben

Secret Soundworks said:


> but regarding the move to iLok, will it be possible to activate the license in iLok normally to the machine


Only the iLok USB key and/or iLok Cloud will be available.

Here a link to the thread regarding the iLok transition 





VSL Announcement: Moving to iLok Key / Cloud - We are live!


Dear Community, We have some important announcements to make. You can read the post from our CEO, Herb Tucmandl, here in our forum: https://www.vsl.co.at/community/posts/t57384-Moving-from-eLicenser-to-iLok#post302591 Please note that the official discussion will happen at the VSL forum. Here...




vi-control.net


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## AndyP

Ben said:


> Only the iLok USB key and/or iLok Cloud will be available.
> 
> Here a link to the thread regarding the iLok transition
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VSL Announcement: Moving to iLok Key / Cloud - We are live!
> 
> 
> Dear Community, We have some important announcements to make. You can read the post from our CEO, Herb Tucmandl, here in our forum: https://www.vsl.co.at/community/posts/t57384-Moving-from-eLicenser-to-iLok#post302591 Please note that the official discussion will happen at the VSL forum. Here...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net


But currently it only works with the eLicencer, right? At least that's what the requirements on the website say.


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## SlHarder

Ben said:


> It's the perfect library for those who want a string library like the Synchron Strings


And that is exactly why I will purchase. The consistency of menu structure and mixer presets across the Synchron and BBO libraries provides for efficient creativity.

And because "patience is a virtue" I will continue to virtuosly await the release of SPro Brass and Winds.


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## Ben

AndyP said:


> But currently it only works with the eLicencer, right? At least that's what the requirements on the website say.


Yes.


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## wcreed51

I see that there's already a Dorico Exp Map and Sibelius Sound Set available for it


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## Ben

SlHarder said:


> And that is exactly why I will purchase. The consistency of menu structure and mixer presets across the Synchron and BBO libraries provides for efficient creativity.
> 
> And because "patience is a virtue" I will continue to virtuosly await the release of SPro Brass and Winds.


Great choice! I also can't wait for more Synchron libraries (and before someone asks: yes, we are already working on the next library; and no, I can't tell you yet what it will be  )!


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## Ben

wcreed51 said:


> I see that there's already a Dorico Exp Map and Sibelius Sound Set available for it


...and also Dorico playback configurations.


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## Markrs

Just watching the videos and I have to say it sounds fantastic. Amazing number of articulation and I love cross-fade between them. Lots of different types of legato as well. I am too much of a hobbiest to go down the VSL rabbit hole, but there recent libraries have really impressed, plus the synchron player, seems very intuitive and we'll layed out.


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## Jimmy Hellfire

Evans said:


> Alternatively, it could be seen as a response to people who say
> 
> "Dimension Strings is too complicated of a workflow";
> "Dimension Strings is too resource intensive"; and/or
> "I want a smaller number of players actually recorded at Synchron Stage and not merely 'synchronized'."
> I don't understand the negativity here.
> 
> EDIT: Note that I think my three bullets above vary based on people's personal preference and setups. I quite like Dimension Strings (SYized). I have no experience with their Chamber Strings libraries.


For years it was, boohoo, VSL outdated, dry samples waah. New libraries with modern design concepts and multi-miced come out, all of a sudden it's: who needs this, they already did everything before.


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## Rich4747

Markrs said:


> Just watching the videos and I have to say it sounds fantastic. Amazing number of articulation and I love cross-fade between them. Lots of different types of legato as well. I am too much of a hobbiest to go down the VSL rabbit hole, but there recent libraries have really impressed, plus the synchron player, seems very intuitive and we'll layed out.


the synchron player is much more powerful then I first realized, and a joy to use, navigate, look at and customize. also has been very stable. Having great articulations is wonderful but being able to apply them easily and musically is the best and the player does that so well.


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## Eptesicus

Martin Tichy said:


> Looks like JRR jumped the gun here... More info on this at 3 pm Vienna time!
> In the meantime, here's a demo by Levente Kovacs:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dropbox - File Deleted
> 
> 
> Dropbox is a free service that lets you bring your photos, docs, and videos anywhere and share them easily. Never email yourself a file again!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And before you ask, no more info prior to the release
> Cheers, Martin/VSL



Whilst the composition is lovely, this library sounds like it has the exact same problems as the original Synchron Strings in terms of the sustains/legato. They are just nowhere near convincing and the transitions are simply not very natural sounding.

It is disappointing to see that no progress is being made in that department.


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## Nimrod7

Ben said:


> We also discounted the eLicenser on our website to € 13, + you will get a €20 voucher, so even with shipping included you should get a good deal!


Purchasing 46 Syncrosoft keys will give back 340 Euro profit from coupons, which you can use to get the Elite for free.

Then sell the Syncrosoft keys to ebay for double profit! 

Although to execute this plan, probably you have to make 46 Vienna Key orders!


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## Ben

Nimrod7 said:


> probably you have to make 46 Vienna Key orders!


...and pay 46 times the shipping costs


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## Nimrod7

Ben said:


> ...and pay 46 times the shipping costs


Which you can pass to the buyer when you sell the keys to ebay! :D






Joking aside, congrats on the release Ben. Looks and Sounds outstanding. On my buying list for May.


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## jamwerks

Eptesicus said:


> Whilst the composition is lovely, this library sounds like it has the exact same problems as the original Synchron Strings in terms of the sustains/legato. They are just nowhere near convincing and the transitions are simply not very natural sounding.
> 
> It is disappointing to see that no progress is being made in that department.


If I understand correctly what you're talking about, the transitions on the melodic line could be slower, and "blossem" differently. Real players would do that a little differently I think, but here it doesn't sound bad to me. Could be possible to do better with a different legato, or maybe lower on the mod wheel.

The legato on the ostinato sounds good to me also.


----------



## Eptesicus

jamwerks said:


> If I understand correctly what you're talking about, the transitions on the melodic line could be slower, and "blossem" differently. Real players would do that a little differently I think, but here it doesn't sound bad to me. Could be possible to do better with a different legato, or maybe lower on the mod wheel.
> 
> The legato on the ostinato sounds good to me also.



The ostinato isnt bad, but that wasnt too much of a problem with the original. It is always the exposed lyrical/melodic lines. They just sound sterile and disjointed to me. They just don't capture what a real melodic string line should sound like well enough (or at least not as well as other libraries these days can). Lyricism comes from flow and connection and the Syncrhon Strings range just doesnt seem to be able to capture much, if any of that.

I'm intrigued as to know why. I wonder if they use different recording techniques to before/other developers or if it is something in the programming.


----------



## Ben

@Eptesicus I have a feeling we might already had this discussion, so I don't plan to discuss this again.
It's ok if you don't like the way our legatos sound.

But: We (VSL) do like the way the legatos in this library and in Synchron Strings Pro sound, including myself.


----------



## CT

Eptesicus said:


> Lyricism comes from flow and connection and the Syncrhon Strings range just doesnt seem to be able to capture much, if any of that.


This is one of the recurring problems for me with all things VSL, not just their legato. There is a wealth of recorded articulations, but when you start constructing a line out of them, there's a palpable feeling of disjointedness, of clearly hearing separate, precise recordings spliced together rather than a naturally flowing phrase with some semblance of musical intention. Most developers have this problem to some extent, but it sticks out to me with VSL in particular.

Precision and "neutrality" has been part of the VSL creed from the start, and it's appealing on paper, but to me, the result is that too much is excised which can't be faked by the user, by any means.


----------



## Eptesicus

Ben said:


> @Eptesicus I have a feeling we might already had this discussion, so I don't plan to discuss this again.
> It's ok if you don't like the way our legatos sound.
> 
> But: We (VSL) do like the way the legatos in this library and in Synchron Strings Pro sound, including myself.



That's fine. 

This is a brand new product and the thread is in Sample Talk so i was just voicing my opinion, and disappointment, that little progress has been made in this area.


----------



## AndyP

I am very happy with the sound of VSL, the only thing I don't like is the portamento. I would immediately hear that out of 50 libraries because it sounds completely different and somehow not very natural (which is a problem with almost all libraries).


----------



## Eptesicus

Mike T said:


> This is one of the recurring problems for me with all things VSL, not just their legato. There is a wealth of recorded articulations, but when you start constructing a line out of them, there's a palpable feeling of disjointedness, of clearly hearing separate, precise recordings spliced together rather than a naturally flowing phrase with some semblance of musical intention. Most developers have this problem to some extent, but it sticks out to me with VSL in particular.
> 
> Precision and "neutrality" has been part of the VSL creed from the start, and it's appealing on paper, but to me, the result is that too much is excised which can't be faked by the user, by any means.



Yeh I agree.

However, im not sure i would apply it to all VSL products. The very first orchestral library I used was the original VSL Special Edition and I still prefer the string legato in those compared with Synchron, and their woodwind legato in particular is generally very good. Since then though, there has been real progress in string legato, but for me the Synchron series has gone backwards.

I thought Synchron Strings 1 was just a blip/duff product, but with this new release it is clear that their process is missing the mark.


----------



## Ben

Eptesicus said:


> and disappointment, that little progress has been made in this area.


And that's what I'm referring to: We like this style of legato, therefore we don't change it.


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

Eptesicus said:


> It is always the exposed lyrical/melodic lines.


Did you hear my SSP Mahler or check the Tchaikovsky in the Elite Strings demo page?


----------



## CT

Eptesicus said:


> That's fine.
> 
> This is a brand new product and the thread is in Sample Talk so i was just voicing my opinion, and disappointment, that little progress has been made in this area.


I'm sure it can be tiring for some developers and employees to read critical opinions of what they do, but for my part anyway, it's not about axe-grinding. It's because VSL tools always feel like they are so damn close to being ideal, and always fall short due to decisions that could have been made differently, not because of any unavoidable, inevitable shortcomings. 

Obviously VSL is not my company so they have no obligation to do things the way I think they should be done, but damn if it doesn't bug me to shake my head every time something else comes around that's marred for me in some small but significant way.


----------



## Eptesicus

Mike T said:


> I'm sure it can be tiring for some developers and employees to read critical opinions of what they do, but for my part anyway, it's not about axe-grinding. It's because VSL tools always feel like they are so damn close to being ideal, and always fall short due to decisions that could have been made differently, not because of any unavoidable, inevitable shortcomings.
> 
> Obviously VSL is not my company so they have no obligation to do things the way I think they should be done, but damn if it doesn't bug me to shake my head every time something else comes around that's marred for me in some small but significant way.



It shouldn't really be tiring for the developers  . This is a sample talk thread on a public forum, and i would have thought it would be immensely useful for them to take on board any criticism from users. 

I mean the original Synchron was pretty heavily disliked by many, many people on here who bought it, and i would have thought that they want to make products that as many people as possible like and enjoy using.


----------



## Noeticus

VERY nice video!!!


----------



## Ben

Eptesicus said:


> i would have thought that they want to make products that as many people as possible like and enjoy using


We do. You should read what people who bought Synchron Strings Pro think about it.
And you can't compare it to the Strings I, different story, different legatos.


----------



## DaddyO

To each his own. Clearly there are a great many skilled users who, since the initial release, have come to appreciate the Synchron Player's qualities. Eveyone doesn't have to. Some people actually don't like chocolate.


----------



## jamwerks

Eptesicus said:


> They just sound sterile and disjointed to me...


I'm not a developer, but I've pretty much understood that there are unlimited ways of recording legato, just like there are a million ways to shape a phrase. That melody would work with something like Adagio (by 8dio), with slow blossoming target notes, but not with Agitato (8dio), made to be more aggressive.

Imo that demo just needed more sculpting on the melody, with the target notes (falling on the & of beat one, for example), a few ticks later, and starting with the mod wheel lower. That's how I'd hear it anyway.

The problem with devs like 8dio recording with excessive "emotion" is that you get just one backed-in emotion, and that only works about 20% of the time. I'm pretty happy with SSP and Zodiac, but do quite a lot of sculpting. And overall Elite sounds quite good to me.


----------



## holywilly

I own every VSL strings including the new elite strings, and also own many other major string libraries, VSL’s legato is very close to the real thing. To me, VSL is the best writing tool to create mock-ups before hitting the scoring stage, sometimes I don’t completely replace the midi strings with live recording, and VSL strings (especially Synchron strings I and Pro) blend seemingly with live strings. Now the new Elite Strings with the ensemble size I’ve always dreamed of, I can’t wait to write my next film with that.


----------



## Eptesicus

Ben said:


> And you can't compare it to the Strings I, different story, different legatos.


Not to my ears


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

jamwerks said:


> recording with excessive "emotion" is that you get just one baked-in emotion,


Totally. This is why a lot of music made _to_ the samples fails when it hits the recording stage or concert hall.


----------



## Trevor Meier

Noeticus said:


> VERY nice video!!!



I found this helpful, but there’s quite a lot of talking and not much of the sound of the library. To hear Elite Strings in action skip to 18:00 and 26:00. There’s a comparison to VSL Strings Pro at 30:00 and likes/dislikes at 36:00.


----------



## Eptesicus

jamwerks said:


> I'm not a developer, but I've pretty much understood that there are unlimited ways of recording legato, just like there are a million ways to shape a phrase. That melody would work with something like Adagio (by 8dio), with slow blossoming target notes, but not with Agitato (8dio), made to be more aggressive.
> 
> Imo that demo just needed more sculpting on the melody, with the target notes (falling on the & of beat one, for example), a few ticks later, and starting with the mod wheel lower. That's how I'd hear it anyway.
> 
> The problem with devs like 8dio recording with excessive "emotion" is that you get just one backed-in emotion, and that only works about 20% of the time. I'm pretty happy with SSP and Zodiac, but do quite a lot of sculpting. And overall Elite sounds quite good to me.



It isn't just about baked in "emotion" though. It is the ability for a melodic line to move lyrically, and therefore move the listener emotionally. It is quite an abstract thing to put into words and explain.

After all, a good performance is how the performer connects all the notes that are on the paper, and for me the Synchron Strings series is not able to capture that in a good way. Obviously, no library is able to fully pull it off realistically (and likely never will), but there are plenty of libraries, even in VSL's own arsenal that can do a better job of it.


----------



## Simon Ravn

Isn't there a 30 days demo for this? I thought there was for all VSL products?


----------



## Evans

Simon Ravn said:


> Isn't there a 30 days demo for this? I thought there was for all VSL products?


No, not for all. And some that don't have demos upon release sometimes do in the months/years later.

There's also the 14-day return policy.


----------



## Trevor Meier

As someone newly considering VSL (once they move to iLok) I really think their web content does a disservice to their beautiful libraries. The site is difficult to navigate (in Dimension Strings I and want to navigate to Dimension Strings complete? Nope.) There’s no clear language on the distinctions between various libraries (eg Synchron Strings Pro vs Synchron Strings I, or the multiple chamber-sized string libs). There’s also no easy way to understand the different generations of libraries (Synchron vs Synchron-ized vs Synchron Player vs VI vs ???). And the lack of information on each library pales compared to Spitfire or OT. 

VSL’s demos are well done, and probably the best way currently to understand a library. The marketing copy is also good, but the (admittedly necessary) hyperbole of marketing-speak doesn’t create clarity on the distinctions between libraries.

IMO, each library should have complete walkthroughs, manual downloads, demonstrations of the library in-action and technical demos of important features like the different types of legatos.

As it is, if you’re unfamiliar with VSL, the site presents way too many choices without enough information or clarity to understand what you’re buying.


----------



## artomatic

Came as a surprise. Love the warmth and tone. 
An instant buy. Great job, VSL!


----------



## Akarin

Ben said:


> But: We (VSL) do like the way the legatos in this library and in Synchron Strings Pro sound, including myself.



Me too! Me too!


----------



## Dietz

Trevor Meier said:


> MO, each library should have complete walkthroughs, *manual downloads*, demonstrations of the library in-action and technical demos of important features like the different types of legatos.


-> https://www.vsl.info/en/instruments/


----------



## YuyaoSG

Ok, I have to say, the position of the Synchronized-Chamber Strings finally awkward. But I like the elite strings' sound.
​


----------



## muziksculp

How would you describe the sonic difference between VSL Elite Strings, and VSL Chamber Strings ?


----------



## Frederick

After trying it out: The sound out of the box is superb! Even without using CC1 or CC11 just playing chords with normal vibrato. Sounds very real, detailed and expressive to my ears. Inspiring!

The only fault so far seems to be that flautando is not included, eventhough Synchron Strings Pro has it (even with legato) and most of the libraries you would pitch this against like SCS and BS.


----------



## RicardoSilva

My main concern is that it costs the same as Synchron strings Pro which has twice the amount of players, seems too pricey for such a small ensamble,I havent managed to justify the price to myself,but I like it very much,would prefer Synchron Solo Strings sold separately.


----------



## Evans

I know there's a pandemic goin' on, but I'm getting pumped for something _not _strings or piano (though I did pick up the 280VC).

Seven dedicated BBO releases are non-FX strings ensembles, with Zodiac also having some big strings focus.
Three (non-FX) strings libraries are now in the first class Synchron set (SS1, SSP, and Elite).
We've got three (non-solo) Synchron-ized strings releases.
There are those Synchron and BBO FX strings.
We recently saw a _major _Dimension Strings sale along with a free expansion.
There are six Synchron pianos.
I'm strung out.


----------



## FireGS

Frederick said:


> The only fault so far seems to be that flautando is not included, eventhough Synchron Strings Pro has it (even with legato)


Yeah, damn, that is a sad omission... Would have sounded great with a smaller ensemble.


----------



## muziksculp

holywilly said:


> Bought! However I can’t see the download under MyVSL yet, @Ben when will the download be available?


Hi @holywilly ,

_Congratulations_ on getting VSL Elite Strings 

I would be very interested in reading your thoughts about Elite Strings, once you have used/tested them for a little while.

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## Simon Ravn

Frederick said:


> After trying it out: The sound out of the box is superb! Even without using CC1 or CC11 just playing chords with normal vibrato. Sounds very real, detailed and expressive to my ears. Inspiring!
> 
> The only fault so far seems to be that flautando is not included, eventhough Synchron Strings Pro has it (even with legato) and most of the libraries you would pitch this against like SCS and BS.


Care to do a little demo of some slow, emotional playing?


----------



## Ben

FireGS said:


> Yeah, damn, that is a sad omission... Would have sounded great with a smaller ensemble.


There are 4 velocity layers in the sustains, so if you use the lowest one you should get pretty close (pp)


----------



## Ben

Simon Ravn said:


> Care to do a little demo of some slow, emotional playing?


Check out the Deborah's Theme mockup on the product page! (it uses mostly the Espressivo articulation and so less need for velocity XF)


----------



## muziksculp

Love the edgy sounding shorts of Elite Strings in the first demo track, 'Race Against Fate'.


----------



## Michael Antrum

I've had a good listen since I got home, and I'm rather liking the sound of them. 

One of the smartest things I did last year was to use the cash I'd stuck away for Black Friday to buy a stack of VSL vouchers, which makes the price pretty good. Seems like a good time to use some of them.

Oh, and @Ben, we'll let you off this time, but you better come back next month with either a Brass or Harp library, otherwise we'll have to get the cattleprod out.....


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Not a big fan of every demo, but Stephen's Tchaikovsky sounds good. I think I will buy it and look if I like it. The smaller section size sounds "better" to me than Synchron Strings Pro.

@Ben: Can the performance détachés be considered as "bowed" legato as in other libraries?


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

@Ben: Could you explain the difference between "molto vibrato" and "espressivo"? The latter isn't mentioned on the product page, but in the manual. Is it similar to Synchron Strings Pro (= espressivo piano)?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

One thing I've learned over the years of all the various discussions on legato is - use your own damn ears. Don't put somebody else's opinion on a pedestal. They don't have better ears. Just different ears. Sometimes it can come across overly insistent or they're trying to convince others that something is off or wrong, but it all comes down to just preferences...they don't have some superior hearing ability or more acutely aware sense of reality.

For example, I think Synchron Strings Pro legato sounds perfectly great.

Congrats on the new release VSL!


----------



## Ben

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> @Ben: Can the performance détachés be considered as "bowed" legato as in other libraries?


Yes, exactly. We have this articulation in some VI libraries as well, and therefore decided to stick with perf. detache.


----------



## Nimrod7

Michael Antrum said:


> Oh, and @Ben, we'll let you off this time, but you better come back next month with either a Brass or Harp library, otherwise we'll have to get the cattleprod out.....


Lol, I can imagine that the VSL's Job description for Ben was something like:

_This role requires the candidates to:

- Be awake until midnight every day, 7 days a week.
- Silently and graciously accept insults and threats from VI-C members 
- Being able to answer impolite questions with joy and happiness. 
- Answer the same questions over and over again without complaining
- Being able to sustain torture for long periods of time._

That man deserves a pay raise, and a promotion for every month it survives with us.


----------



## Ben

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> @Ben: Could you explain the difference between "molto vibrato" and "espressivo"?


You can choose here the between the three vibrato amounts. And it is available with legato. 
It has a performed intensity build up at the start of the note, perfectly for slower passages, (almost) no velocity XF required. Really beautiful, you should check it out if you get the library!


----------



## muziksculp

@Ben,

When can we expect a detailed walkthrough of Synchron Elite Strings posted ?


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

ALittleNightMusic said:


> One thing I've learned over the years of all the various discussions on legato is - use your own damn ears. Don't put somebody else's opinion on a pedestal. They don't have better ears. Just different ears. Sometimes it can come across overly insistent or they're trying to convince others that something is off or wrong, but it all comes down to just preferences...they don't have some superior hearing ability or more acutely aware sense of reality.
> 
> For example, I think Synchron Strings Pro legato sounds perfectly great.
> 
> Congrats on the new release VSL!


Totally agree! In my experience you can't compare VSL to other libraries. You really have to learn how to phrase with the modwheel – not easy, it takes time. And it's not applicable to all VSL string libraries to the same degree. Older recordings like Orchestral Strings are tricky, because of less vibrato; Dimension Strings are the best, in my opinion, because it also has more velocity layers. Still figuring out Synchron Strings Pro, it's more difficult, maybe because of the way it was recorded and fewer velocity layers.

Two things which I learnt with VSL:
1) Don't go to high on the modwheel (a value of 80 is good; rarely go higher)
2) Constantly move the modwheel for fluid phrasing (takes time to learn; I use an expression pedal instead of modwheel)


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Ben said:


> You can choose here the between the three vibrato amounts. And it is available with legato.
> It has a performed intensity build up at the start of the note, perfectly for slower passages, (almost) no velocity XF required. Really beautiful, you should check it out if you get the library!


Wow! But this tiny "swell" is different to the soft attacks? Sounds great, should definitely be mentioned on the product page or shown in a walkthrough video.


----------



## Ben

muziksculp said:


> @Ben,
> 
> When can we expect a detailed walkthrough of Synchron Elite Strings posted ?


I don't know, well see. Definitely on the wish list, but please allow us to take a few breaths


----------



## muziksculp

Ben said:


> I don't know, well see. Definitely on the wish list, but please allow us to take a few breaths


OK. Thanks.

Detailed Walkthrough videos are pretty much a VSL tradition, so I was a bit surprised this important library didn't have one yet.

Hopefully I will get to watch soon.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

muziksculp said:


> OK. Thanks.
> 
> Detailed Walkthrough videos are pretty much a VSL tradition, so I was a bit surprised this important library didn't have one yet.
> 
> Hopefully I will get to watch soon.


True. But I really want to see a "real" walkthrough video with someone performing. Not a big fan of the Synchron Strings Pro videos which have the audio demos as a basis. I know it's too much expected, haha.


----------



## Ben

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Wow! But this tiny "swell" is different to the soft attacks? Sounds great, should definitely be mentioned on the product page or shown in a walkthrough video.


It's more then just a swell, the entire intensity goes up, as well as the vibrato changes slightly. The legato version has great playability in slow to mid tempo. Also chords sound nice with these. 
The Deborah's Theme demo makes great use of that, so check that one out in the demo section of the product page.


----------



## muziksculp

Ben said:


> It's more then just a swell, the entire intensity goes up, as well as the vibrato changes slightly. The legato version has great playability in slow to mid tempo. Also chords sound nice with these.
> The Deborah's Theme demo makes great use of that, so check that one out in the demo section of the product page.


Which type of legato are you referring to here ?


----------



## Petrucci

Just when I used all my VSL Vouchers on 280VC, SSP, SYd Woodwinds, SYd SE1... And now this...!))) Regarding legato in SSP I can say that at first I thought the transition was pretty quick but every library is its own instrument so when I learned how to play it the phrasing became just fine for my taste.


----------



## Ben

muziksculp said:


> OK. Thanks.
> 
> Detailed Walkthrough videos are pretty much a VSL tradition, so I was a bit surprised this important library didn't have one yet.
> 
> Hopefully I will get to watch soon.


Sure, but you would be amazed by all the things that are currently going on, here at VSL 
We do our best, but I can't make any promises today.


----------



## Ben

muziksculp said:


> Which type of legato are you referring to here ?


Legato - > Espressivo


----------



## muziksculp

Ben said:


> Sure, but you would be amazed by all the things that are currently going on, here at VSL
> We do our best, but I can't make any promises today.


That's a healthy sign. 

No problem. I will just have to wait.


----------



## Saxer

I tried two mixes... Decca wide room preset and a custom closer mix with closer/mid/surround mics plus a Lexicon reverb... a bit more chamber like for my taste. It's just a short snippet... I used the Babylonwave-Articulation switches from Synchron Strings Pro which are similar but still a bit different, especially different names. So I'm not sure if the legatos I used are the best choice... first try.


----------



## Seycara

Legato/sustains sound too flat for my taste. Doesn't sound nearly as inspired as Performance Samples, CSS, or even Afflatus


----------



## muziksculp

Seycara said:


> Legato/sustains sound too flat for my taste


Yes, no movement/timbre change, too static, that's what I hear as well.

I have the same complaint about OT-Berlin Symph. Strings Vlns 1 & 2.


----------



## Ben

muziksculp said:


> no movement/timbre change


As soon as you move the velocity crossfades a little bit it will get movement and timbre change. But you can't do the opposite with samples that have movement/timbre change built in.
Also consider using the Espressivo articulation, it is designed to have timbre change, and if the volume build up is too much for you, it can easily be tamed by driving the Expression slider in counter to the build up.


----------



## jamwerks

I had kind of an "awakening" moment earlier listening to the excellent video posted above by Nico Schuele. I saw that he was using two plugs (Brainworx Refinement, & Oeksound Soothe2) to process the different Synchron Strings libraries. I'd never heard any Strings from Synchron sound so good !

I remember match eqing SSP to CSS a while back, and was cutting like 6db around 3k, but was never 100% happy with my results. Those plugs seems to dynamically tame resonances and "harshness" (2-5k), and seem to make them sound like I always wanted. The Synchron stage seems to really bring-out those frequencies, with strings in any case.

I'll be using Zodiac, SyST I, SSP, SyST FX & Elite lots and now want those plugs also!


----------



## muziksculp

Ben said:


> As soon as you move the velocity crossfades a little bit it will get movement and timbre change. But you can't do the opposite with samples that have movement/timbre change built in.
> Also consider using the Espressivo articulation, it is designed to have timbre change, and if the volume build up is too much for you, it can easily be tamed by driving the Expression slider in counter to the build up.


Hi Ben,

Thanks for the helpful feedback. 

So, the static timbre I hear in those audio examples are mostly contributed to the way they were produced by the user, maybe no, or not enough vel. crossfade movement. This would be easily fixed if some vel.crossfade change was applied to the static sounding notes.


----------



## Ben

muziksculp said:


> So, the static timbre I hear in those audio examples are mostly contributed to the way they were produced by the user, maybe no, or not enough vel. crossfade movement. This would be easily fixed if some vel.crossfade change was applied to the static sounding notes.


I must admit that I have not listened to all audio demos in depth until now, so I can't comment on this at this moment.
During my testing I never had the issue of a too static sound if I moved the velocity crossfades slider. You will get a great dynamic and timbral change thanks to the 4 velocity layers and how the Synchron Player handles these.


----------



## Arbee

Arbee said:


> I have a really bad feeling about this, I may find it irresistable if it truly represents the sum of lessons learnt .


First impression from what I've heard here and from the demos is that it's a great sonic step forward, especially for those looking for ambient rather than intimate studio libraries. Easy to see what the excitement is about.

However, I'm sadly with the legato nay-sayers based on what I've heard so far. I'd love to hear the opening bars from this (forget the tempo and sound quality, just listen to what happens under a single bow) with these new strings. This is where, in my humble opinion, the VI Series + MIR shines, and is a prerequisite.


----------



## Mark Schmieder

Eight pages in half a day -- is that a new record? Has anyone actually had time to follow the entire thread? Is this an indication of product excitement? I'm going to guess that's the case.

On the other hand, maybe if I find time to read the thread later on, I'll find that it's full of complaints.  Poor Ben, he won't be getting any sleep!


----------



## Mark Schmieder

Interesting comment about applying Brainworx Refinement. I have everything from that vendor, but the catalogue is so big by now, that one can easily get lost in a sea of confusion. I don't even remember that one! The one I use the most often in a lot of situations (including strings), is the Maag EQ (both versions). It can really help balance the harmonics and resonance.


----------



## sostenuto

Weak chops here, ( _others can likely accomplish this with various tools_ ) but have always been cool with the way bx_ refinement allows easy listening to exactly what ss being 'deharshed' as controls adjusted. My kinda plugin !


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

Simon Ravn said:


> Care to do a little demo of some slow, emotional playing?


I made an adagio that sounds really nice... but it is more of a smooth/subtle type, not overly romantic. Video should come late next week.


----------



## holywilly

muziksculp said:


> Hi @holywilly ,
> 
> _Congratulations_ on getting VSL Elite Strings
> 
> I would be very interested in reading your thoughts about Elite Strings, once you have used/tested them for a little while.
> 
> Thanks,
> Muziksculp


Sure thing! I probably need couple weeks to study this library and make it in use. I'll let you know my impression and thought on this wonderful library. Now I just step in my studio, brew some morning coffee and downloading this library.


----------



## muziksculp

holywilly said:


> Sure thing! I probably need couple weeks to study this library and make it in use. I'll let you know my impression and thought on this wonderful library. Now I just step in my studio, brew some morning coffee and downloading this library.


Thanks. 

Enjoy your new Elite Strings


----------



## Lee Blaske

I'm really impressed with what I've heard so far from this library. It seems to have the capability of sounding warm and buttery. I'm probably going to have to make space on an SSD for it.  

I've got a LOT of very nice libraries, but VSL Synchron Strings Pro is more and more ending up as my go-to. It's a very easy library for me to play, and it really covers a LOT of bases. Again, there are lots of great products out there, but the VSL folks really seem to have honed their process, and are doing some wonderful scripting. They're not putting out tons of libraries, but the ones they are putting out are extremely well crafted. The fit and finish is superb. 

When VSL releases a new product, it seems to me that it's not just a different take on the same idea (i.e. different group of players performing in a different/unique environment). With VSL, a new library (of an ensemble they've previously covered) is going to have significantly improved technology and playability throughout.


----------



## Lee Blaske

Ben said:


> Check out the Deborah's Theme mockup on the product page! (it uses mostly the Espressivo articulation and so less need for velocity XF)


I thought that demo was particularly striking. Extremely intimate and human sounding. Sounds like a Randy Newman moment.


----------



## muziksculp

I wonder if the standard library can sound very good, even though is has much less mic options compared to the full library of Synchron Elite Strings. (SES).


----------



## Marlon Brown

packhorse said:


> Shame. I needed a Chamber Strings library and excited to read this. However, just seen the price - too much for me as a hobbyist. Another disappointing day today for me.


This isn't a cheap hobby. Save up and get it. I'll be getting it in the month after I've saved a bit.


----------



## Lee Blaske

muziksculp said:


> I wonder if the standard library can sound very good, even though is has much less mic options compared to the full library of Synchron Elite Strings. (SES).


Good question. It seems to me that VSL's standard vs. full library configuration has changed a bit since the first Synchron Strings release. With the first release, the full library seemed mainly aimed toward a lot of surround applications. It wasn't something I thought I needed back then. But looking at the list on this new product, the full version seems to have things I could use just working in stereo.


----------



## muziksculp

Lee Blaske said:


> Good question. It seems to me that VSL's standard vs. full library configuration has changed a bit since the first Synchron Strings release. With the first release, the full library seemed mainly aimed toward a lot of surround applications. It wasn't something I thought I needed back then. But looking at the list on this new product, the full version seems to have things I could use just working in stereo.


True, and there is always the option of getting the Standard Library first, then upgrading to the Full Library if it doesn't fulfill one's needs.

That's one great thing about the VSL product line system.


----------



## Robo Rivard

This is a wonderful library!... But I'm a hobbyist, and this is getting too niche for me. Year 2020 was my VSL year, and I bought the whole BBO package, as well as Synchron Strings Pro Full... I guess I should save money for the next VSL libraries that will really make a difference in my template.

Any plans to record the equivalent of the "Historical Instruments" on the Synchron Stage?... If you can do it for drum kits, I don't see why you couldn't take the time to record meaningful, non orchestral instruments in the same room...


----------



## holywilly

Robo Rivard said:


> This is a wonderful library!... But I'm a hobbyist, and this is getting too niche for me. Year 2020 was my VSL year, and I bought the whole BBO package, as well as Synchron Strings Pro Full... I guess I should save money for the next VSL libraries that will really make a difference in my template.
> 
> Any plans to record the equivalent of the "Historical Instruments" on the Synchron Stage?... If you can do it for drum kits, I don't see why you couldn't take the time to record meaningful, non orchestral instruments in the same room...


VSL Synchron Power Drums


----------



## WhiteNoiz

It seems to take processing quite well... Experimented a bit on it. Interesting. Attached an edit of the demo, edited closer to my liking. Rather pleasing I'd say.


----------



## Soundbed

jamwerks said:


> I had kind of an "awakening" moment earlier listening to the excellent video posted above by Nico Schuele. I saw that he was using two plugs (Brainworx Refinement, & Oeksound Soothe2) to process the different Synchron Strings libraries. I'd never heard any Strings from Synchron sound so good !
> 
> I remember match eqing SSP to CSS a while back, and was cutting like 6db around 3k, but was never 100% happy with my results. Those plugs seems to dynamically tame resonances and "harshness" (2-5k), and seem to make them sound like I always wanted. The Synchron stage seems to really bring-out those frequencies, with strings in any case.
> 
> I'll be using Zodiac, SyST I, SSP, SyST FX & Elite lots and now want those plugs also!


@ALittleNightMusic


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Soundbed said:


> @ALittleNightMusic


How did we tolerate strings before Soothe2?!? 😂


----------



## Robo Rivard

holywilly said:


> VSL Synchron Power Drums


This is exactly what I mean when I say that VSL should keep on recording non-orchestral instruments on the Synchron Stage. I personally like early music (15th century), and the "Hollywood" sound was never for me.


----------



## Simon Ravn

Ben said:


> As soon as you move the velocity crossfades a little bit it will get movement and timbre change. But you can't do the opposite with samples that have movement/timbre change built in.
> Also consider using the Espressivo articulation, it is designed to have timbre change, and if the volume build up is too much for you, it can easily be tamed by driving the Expression slider in counter to the build up.


You will also, most likely, get phasing with such a small string section, if you rely on crossfading for timbre-change. But maybe its not too bad with Elite.


----------



## mikeh-375

....gotta give credit here to @Guy Bacos who's demo 'Race against Fate' is excellent imv. What sounds like an exhaustive expose of the samples (thank God it's PRS day), also happens to be a really interesting piece with enough ideas to expand it into a serious work if he wanted to.


----------



## Akarin

Saxer said:


> I tried two mixes... Decca wide room preset and a custom closer mix with closer/mid/surround mics plus a Lexicon reverb... a bit more chamber like for my taste. It's just a short snippet... I used the Babylonwave-Articulation switches from Synchron Strings Pro which are similar but still a bit different, especially different names. So I'm not sure if the legatos I used are the best choice... first try.



I love the decca wide mix. It's usually my starting preset in Synchron Strings Pro. 

I go through a few Elite Strings mix presets in here, if interested:


----------



## Piotrek K.

I'm waiting now what Sonokinetic Strings will have to offer. But I'm also wondering how well Elite Strings will work as a bigger ensemble with divisi? I mean duplicate and transpose for example Violins 1 and treat them as one, bigger ensemble but with divisi control (I know it's not the same as bigger ensemble recorded).

It's clear for me that those are not chamber strings, they sound much bigger due to stage, yet they are still detailed and crisp (more vibrato examples please!). And amount of articulations is pretty solid, so they clearly have everything needed to become "workhorse" library.


----------



## Knomes

I have a question for @Ben regarding the size of the library.
This library has many articulations, but it occupies roughly half the space of Synchron Strings Pro (60.9 GB vs 122.7 GB for the standard versions).
How can this be explained?


----------



## Simon Ravn

WhiteNoiz said:


> It seems to take processing quite well... Experimented a bit on it. Interesting. Attached an edit of the demo, edited closer to my liking. Rather pleasing I'd say.


Sounds kinda boxy (bad room placement) and overhyped in the HF to me. The original too. I don't think it sounds like this out of the box.


----------



## Simon Ravn

Akarin said:


> I love the decca wide mix. It's usually my starting preset in Synchron Strings Pro.
> 
> I go through a few Elite Strings mix presets in here, if interested:



Cellos sound really good in the default preset you play with first, also "classic room mix" (sounds pretty similar as you also say). But when you select the "lush decca" preset wow.... it totally ruins everything. Sounds so fake and processed, reverb is terrible. I wonder what you get in the "standard" edition of the library.

Thanks for doing this. Shorts really seem to be the force, highlights of the library. Legato... here I agree that it sounds almost scripted, like a waste, if they actually recorded legato intervals here. It really adds nothing good.


----------



## Ben

Simon Ravn said:


> I don't think it sounds like this out of the box.


That's right. The sound is intentional to have similar characteristics as the original recordings. There is a walkthrough of this piece in work, I'll post it here as soon as we publish it.


----------



## Frederick

Knomes said:


> I have a question for @Ben regarding the size of the library.
> This library has many articulations, but it occupies roughly half the space of Synchron Strings Pro (60.9 GB vs 122.7 GB for the standard versions).
> How can this be explained?


I have been wondering about this as well. Especially since the total amount of samples is in the same order of magnitude as SySPro. 270K for standard SES and 322K for standard SySPro. Even less of a difference for the full library. 

I don't expect Ben to spill the trade secrets here. Just expressing my curiosity.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Knomes said:


> I have a question for @Ben regarding the size of the library.
> This library has many articulations, but it occupies roughly half the space of Synchron Strings Pro (60.9 GB vs 122.7 GB for the standard versions).
> How can this be explained?


Smaller sections need less space.


----------



## Evans

Guy Michelmore has done a thing


----------



## doctoremmet

Evans said:


> Guy Michelmore has done a thing



I love it when he does things! I’m feeling all giddy now


----------



## Ben

Knomes said:


> I have a question for @Ben regarding the size of the library.
> This library has many articulations, but it occupies roughly half the space of Synchron Strings Pro (60.9 GB vs 122.7 GB for the standard versions).
> How can this be explained?





Frederick said:


> I have been wondering about this as well. Especially since the total amount of samples is in the same order of magnitude as SySPro. 270K for standard SES and 322K for standard SySPro. Even less of a difference for the full library.
> 
> I don't expect Ben to spill the trade secrets here. Just expressing my curiosity.


I don't know things like this "out of the box", but I've double checked with my colleagues.
For the Synchron Elite Strings we could further improve sample content optimizations, especially regarding sample trimming, without loosing quality.
Also, the inclusion of a few Synchron Strings I articulations further pushed the content size of the Synchron Strings Pro.
Additionally there are more mono mic positions included in the Elite Strings (Main Center, Solo 1, Solo 2, Ribbon), compared to the Synchron Strings Pro.


----------



## Ben

So, I assume there are some here that already had the time to download, install and take a look at the library.
I feel very honored I could contribute some of the "Signature" presets, and I would like to hear what you think about these and if you would like to see more of these for future libraries (and maybe also for already released ones).


----------



## JTB

With MIR Pro 3D just around the corner I would have liked to see something dry. But this still looks and sounds very nice.
I do hope VSL haven't completely abandoned the silent stage concept, because I own all the Roompacks, and would really like to hear them with some new products.


----------



## Akarin

Simon Ravn said:


> I wonder what you get in the "standard" edition of the library.



My video only shows the standard edition.


----------



## SlHarder

Ben said:


> like to see more of these for future libraries (and maybe also for already released ones


More of your Sig presets would be welcomed for SSPro and I'm sure the eagerly anticipated SBPro and SWPro also would benefit from them. 

The Sig presets can take "traditional" VSL libraries into the realm of creative soundscapes. That means I spend less money on the esoteric single purpose libraries that are flooding the market right now.

And I know this is a big ask but a solid nuts/bolts walkthru of the Synchron player is needed. One big demo walkthru of combining articulations, then assigning custom mix channels and controllers, digging into effects, etc. 

Most newcomers to Synchron player easily adopt its Dimension slots workflow. But there are so many capabilities and possibilities lying just beneath the Dimension menu surface. Learning to utilize all those capabilities adds great value to the Synchron user's experience and opens almost endless creative possibilities.


----------



## Dietz

JTB said:


> With MIR Pro 3D just around the corner I would have liked to see something dry.


-> https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Strings_Complete/Dimension_Strings_Bundle 

Brandnew and free (!): Dimension Strings - Ponticello


----------



## muziksculp

What's MIR Pro 3D ?


----------



## CT

Sigh. Thinking of getting a dongle again so I can just try this out for myself for a couple weeks. I really don't trust any demos/walkthroughs of anything at this point.


----------



## mixedmoods

JTB said:


> With MIR Pro 3D just around the corner I would have liked to see something dry. But this still looks and sounds very nice.



How do you know MIR Pro 3D is around the corner? 
I remember Dietz mentioning somewhere that it is in the making but might take much longer due to the pandemic situation ...

I already own Dimension Strings (I and III) and am also a fan of the flexibility dry libraries offer in combination with MIR. But I am still quite interested in Elite Stings I must say. They might even be a nice addition. And they can actually sound quite dry as this video shows:


----------



## Dietz

mixedmoods said:


> How do you know MIR Pro 3D is around the corner?


Nobody really knows yet. The "corner" is already visible, but still partially hidden in the fog of future. 8-)


----------



## muziksculp

If I'm not doing any Surround work, would the Synchron Elite Strings *standard* library be good enough, or would it still be beneficial to get the *full* version ?

I know I can get the Standard first, then upgrade to the Full version, but I would like to hear some feedback before I purchase anything. (Thanks)


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

muziksculp said:


> If I'm not doing any Surround work, would the Synchron Elite Strings *standard* library be good enough, or would it still be beneficial to get the *full* version ?
> 
> I know I can get the Standard first, then upgrade to the Full version, but I would like to hear some feedback before I purchase anything. (Thanks)


I think it's just having more options. But especially (and that's new) in the case of Elite Strings you have leader and mid "ribbon" mono mics in the full version, which sounds interesting. Want to hear those.


----------



## muziksculp

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> I think it's just having more options. But especially (and that's new) in the case of Elite Strings you have leader and mid "ribbon" mono mics in the full version, which sounds interesting. Want to hear those.


Yes, I know they have these, that's why a detailed walkthrough of Elite Strings showing how these mics sound would be very helpful.

I'm hoping there will be a detailed walkthrough video of Elite Strings soon.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Evans said:


> Guy Michelmore has done a thing



I like Guy's videos in general, very funny and informative, but this is rather short on articulations. Wanted to see way more of either the legato and the others. Maybe @donbodin with another review? The Synchron Strings Pro and BBO walkthroughs are excellent.


----------



## borisb2

Late to the party.. Wow, 10 pages in 1 day?

So whats the verdict so far? From all I could hear so far I’m not a fan of the violins - mostly sound a bit sterile/thin .. again..
Getting an updated chamber sized library might be a good thing though 😋 .. not sure


----------



## mixedmoods

Dietz said:


> Nobody really knows yet. The "corner" is already visible, but still partially hidden in the fog of future. 8-)


Well – thats still very good news! Thanks for the update!
"Hidden in the Fog of Future" ... I'm sure thats the next Guy Bacos piece (Screencast coming soon) ...


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

mixedmoods said:


> And they can actually sound quite dry as this video shows:


Yes, and that dry mix in example 2 still has the tree activated plus a reverb send on it. 🤙🏻


----------



## ptram

Dietz said:


> Nobody really knows yet. The "corner" is already visible, but still partially hidden in the fog of future. 8-)


I'm optimistic! The corner may be just at the end of the wall! 

The Wall

Paolo


----------



## Noeticus

Nice video!


----------



## Noeticus

JTB said:


> Brandnew and free (!): Dimension Strings - Ponticello
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Only available to registered users of the Vienna Dimension Strings Bundle).


They are very nice, but not quite free.


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

JTB said:


> (Only available to registered users of the Vienna Dimension Strings Bundle).


You mean they don’t come free if you purchase their alto flute!?!?? 😂


----------



## Gerbil

mixedmoods said:


> How do you know MIR Pro 3D is around the corner?
> I remember Dietz mentioning somewhere that it is in the making but might take much longer due to the pandemic situation ...
> 
> I already own Dimension Strings (I and III) and am also a fan of the flexibility dry libraries offer in combination with MIR. But I am still quite interested in Elite Stings I must say. They might even be a nice addition. And they can actually sound quite dry as this video shows:



I like the accented slurs on the penultimate page. Actually I like all the slurs on that page! Very nice.


----------



## holywilly

It’s totally worth it to get the full library with extra mics, the signature presets come with full library are the best thing for Elite Strings. My personal favorite signature preset are “Consiliant” and “intimate”. Those presets really show the prestige detail of the quality of sound for each articulation, very clean, full and emotional, and it glued nicely with any other string libraries.

I’m still exploring this library, it’s a pretty deep library when comes to legato. Now I’m making my own presets to match my workflow with Synchron Strings Pro.


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

@holywilly hey I got a question—where are you going to put the new detache stuff? I have separate legato and short note trees in my custom SSP presets... and am unsure of the best place.


----------



## holywilly

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> @holywilly hey I got a question—where are you going to put the new detache stuff? I have separate legato and short note trees in my custom SSP presets... and am unsure of the best place.


I have it as separate keyswitch, just detache, no detache legato. By the way, love your demos.


----------



## Ben

muziksculp said:


> If I'm not doing any Surround work, would the Synchron Elite Strings *standard* library be good enough, or would it still be beneficial to get the *full* version ?


I highly recommend to go for full. You get access to:
- Per section: Solo 2, Ribbon, Surround, High Surround mics
- additional mixer presets

I love the additional control you get with the mics. You can really sculpt the sound to your taste. And the High Surround mics are not only good for surround, but they will add room and air to the sound - I make use of these in most of my Signature presets.


----------



## stigc56

This library is by far the most complex I have. Trying to build a Sound Variation map for 1st violins for Studio One right now, this is really a job!
I will share it in Presonus Exchange.


----------



## Ben

stigc56 said:


> This library is by far the most complex I have. Trying to build a Sound Variation map for 1st violins for Studio One right now, this is really a job!
> I will share it in Presonus Exchange.


Sound Variation will populate automatically in Studio One. Just make sure to use the VST3 version of the Synchron Player!



And the best thing: If you alter the Dimension Tree in the Synchron Player to fit your workflow, the Sound Variation will get updated automagically as well


----------



## Ben

holywilly said:


> the signature presets come with full library are the best thing for Elite Strings


I had a lot of fun with "Golden Times" + iZotope's Vinyl FX plugin (you can get it here for free: https://www.izotope.com/en/products/vinyl.html ).

Btw, we added the mixer preset descriptions here: https://www.vsl.info/instruments/synchron/elite-strings#mixer-presets
For "Heartbeat" and "Lost in Arctic" there are additional FX inserts included, that are disabled by default, but they add an interesting effect (auto gain / delay).


----------



## stigc56

Okay!!!! Then I need to have the library on my DAW machine, right now it's on my PCServer, or is there a work around?? Please!!


----------



## Ben

stigc56 said:


> Okay!!!! Then I need to have the library on my DAW machine, right now it's on my PCServer, or is there a work around?? Please!!


At the moment you need to host the Synchron Player directly in Studio One in order to get the automatic Sound Variation setup.
I have not tried it myself yet, but you might be able to save the automatically generated Sound Variation map, and re-use it on a different track (-> VEP track).

You can load and alter the Elite Strings preset structure (and any other Synchron Library) without downloading and installing the samples. Just deselect all mics during download/installation of the Elite Strings. The instrument presets will appear in the Synchron Player on next load. Load the preset you would like to start with and change it to your likings.


----------



## richhickey

*Synchron Elite Strings* - first impressions. This is not a review, YMMV, etc.

Well, my very first impressions were terrible, I must say. Playing with the cellos for an hour or so, I wrote and sent an email asking for my first VSL refund . Fortunately, it was after business hours in Vienna and I got to explore the rest of the lib. I decided to stick with the lib and get the full mic set. Here are my observations:

First off, I was very excited for this library. More often than not I want smaller than orchestral sections and I love the sound of Synchron strings (I and Pro) and the Synchron stage in general, VI chamber strings and (either) Dimension Strings. Expectations were high. I own pretty much every string (and other) lib VSL sells, and many other libs, for comparison.

*Artics*

The lib provides a usefully complete set of articulations - 4 flavors of shorts, longs with three levels of vib (normal/molto/senza) and 3/4 kinds of attacks (normal/fast/soft/sfz), expressivo arcs again with 3 vibs, legatos with a similar setup to the longs. Portamento (ick), recorded sfz, swells, two lengths of crescendos and diminuendos. tremolos and with added legato transitions, measured trems in 4 tempos with cut and legato transitions, trills to a major third, harmonic long/short/trem, and a great performance detache providing a critical tool for realistic string phrasing. The recordings are, as usual from VSL, excellent. Dynamics are good and mostly consistent.

*Legatos*

The legatos are Synchron Pro style. It's not my favorite style, but still is tastefully done in general, _EXCEPT_ for the cellos. The cellos suffer from some serious excessive portamento-like ramping on legato intervals of fourths and fifths. Like, comically weeyewweeyeww Minimoog ramp stuff. It is the worst legato in all of VSL, IMO. Yes, occasionally in real life there will be an audible transition like this, but when baked into the samples of every fourth/fifth you are tripping over it constantly. At that point, it's not a source of expression or emotion, it's just a sore thumb headache you have to work around. I think these need to be fixed. It was this that made me want to return the lib, but fortunately it's mostly just a problem with the cellos.

*The Sound and Mics*

The second thing that threw me initially was the sound. I immediately loaded up the Classic Decca Tree mix and turned off the reverb, only to be greeted with a strident, ROMpler-like sound. It ends up the culprits are the Mid mics, which even in that mix are far too loud, and in this library, not particularly flattering of the strings at all. It's funny how VSL seems somewhat afraid of being too wet, such emphasis of the mid mics and treatment of the trees as almost an ambience source (de-emphasized and delayed by default) is characteristic of all the Synchron libs. But the tree recordings are _really, really_ good, and Synchron stage is a sweet room for strings. I recommend you just pull the trees up and listen for a while, get acclimated to the sound of the sections and the room, then just bring in the closer mics a smidge for detail (unless you are going for more of an effect). That said, the mid mics have been, in other Synchron releases, a good resource for a dryer sound. Here, they can be somewhat grating and need to be reserved for modest additional bite. The solo, while not a first chair, does pull in the detail of a single player quite well. The full mic set, in addition to surround and high stereo mics, adds a second solo and a ribbon. The second solo is yet another detail tool, and the ribbon is everything the mid is not - flattering, warm and characterful. Terrific.

I _love_ the smaller sections. Intimacy, detail, flexibility.

*The Rest*

It may seem like there are twice as many artics as I've listed above. Many of them ('agile' et al) are fabricated from the same recordings. It's obvious that VSL has become enamored with what they can do with editing and the Synchron engine. Some of the results are useful in small doses, but uncanny valleys and just plain goofiness abounds - e.g. the soft releases are in sfx territory, completely unrealistic. I preferred the old VSL where lots of articulations meant lots of recordings. We've come a long way from the extensive documentation of sample count, round robin count, specified dynamic levels and their velocity breakpoints etc of the VI series that in my mind distinguished VSL as a premium product.

*Conclusion*

In the end, there are plenty of great sounding samples in this lib. You'll either like the fabricated stuff or avoid it, as I will, except to get out of a jam. I think the recordings are best in class and the full mics are pretty much mandatory - the ribbon is fantastic, and the two solo mics will let you dial in all kinds of levels of detail. _Tons_ of flexibility here. Yes, it's not the brass yet, but if you are building a Synchron-driven template you will want these.

tl;dr

It's a great library of a sweet spot string ensemble size, that includes some extra stuff that's meh but in general that's not in your way either. Fix those sore thumb cello legatos please!


----------



## WhiteNoiz

Simon Ravn said:


> Sounds kinda boxy (bad room placement) and overhyped in the HF to me. The original too. I don't think it sounds like this out of the box.


Yes, it's possible. I overdid them a bit. Not sure about placement but I did forget some stereo widening on (which I ended up reducing to about 80% to try to match the video below). Just got it in the ballpark to see how it reacts. The violins especially have some weird freqs and something's definitely off with them, but since it was on the whole I didn't continue. I felt like I needed to EQ the separate violins/violas. And I like to hype up the basses. What's for sure is I don't like the original sound (the violins mostly). 

But, as always, that's personal and it depends. I actually expected someone to say it sounds like they're muted after the processing; maybe the hyped highs prevent that. The demo on the site is probably closer to how it sounds out of the box. Not sure if they matched the sound to a reference (?). Ben seems to suggest they referred to the recording but not sure about that. I did it without a reference; just what seemed to fit. I assume this is the reference (only one I found that sounds close):


Mine's not too far off but I guess they followed that one. (About 25% reduced loudness)

The recording sounds very clean though, so props on that. That's mostly what I wanted to test/point out. And the presets seem to be helpful.


----------



## Ben

WhiteNoiz said:


> Not sure if they matched the sound to a reference (?). Ben seems to suggest they referred to the recording but not sure about that. I did it without a reference; just what seemed to fit. I assume this is the reference (only one I found that sounds close):


Yes, and yes, it was this recording.


----------



## Ben

richhickey said:


> Many of them ('agile' et al) are fabricated from the same recordings


Agile legatos/ perf détachés -> completely different recordings

As far as I know the soft releases are also real recordings, and they are really useful for certain music types.

And funny that you dislike the legatos of the cellos: I had so much fun with it and liked these a lot...


----------



## richhickey

Ben said:


> Agile shorts - > "quantized" for tighter sound
> Agile legatos/ perf détachés - > completely different recordings
> 
> As far as I know the soft releases are also real recordings, and they are really useful for certain music types.
> 
> And funny that you dislike the legatos of the cellos: I had so much fun with it and liked these a lot...


Thanks for the info! I guess I'd like a real soft release about 1/3 as long 

To be clear, it's just those 4th/5th intervals of the cello legatos, the smaller intervals in particular are very nice.


----------



## richhickey

To make clear what I am talking about re: the cello legatos, you can hear the difference in these cello intros using Elite and Pro playing the same MIDI.

*Elite*:




*Pro*




I hear 6 pronounced ramps in the Elite intro while the Pro version has none outside the bounds of tasteful playing. String libraries, like string sections, shouldn't play portamento/zigane unless requested to


----------



## FireGS

Ben said:


> I highly recommend to go for full. You get access to:
> - Per section: Solo 2, Ribbon, Surround, High Surround mics
> - additional mixer presets


I went for full, and I was surprised to see no mixerpresets that used, say, the ribbon mics instead of the mids for anything other than surround > stereo presets.


----------



## Ben

FireGS said:


> I went for full, and I was surprised to see no mixerpresets that used, say, the ribbon mics instead of the mids for anything other than surround > stereo presets.


Divisi Player 2, many Signature presets...


----------



## stargazer

Ben said:


> At the moment you need to host the Synchron Player directly in Studio One in order to get the automatic Sound Variation setup.
> I have not tried it myself yet, but you might be able to save the automatically generated Sound Variation map, and re-use it on a different track (-> VEP track).


This works - I saved some Sound Variation maps on a Windows slave machine and opened them on macOS.


----------



## madfloyd

Ben said:


> I highly recommend to go for full. You get access to:
> - Per section: Solo 2, Ribbon, Surround, High Surround mics
> - additional mixer presets
> 
> I love the additional control you get with the mics. You can really sculpt the sound to your taste. And the High Surround mics are not only good for surround, but they will add room and air to the sound - I make use of these in most of my Signature presets.


It would be nice to hear a video on how these sound.


----------



## tritonely

Can you delete or not download mic positions? I can't afford 100+ gb on my ssd. How much gb is only a mix mic for every instrument group?


----------



## composingkeys

Yes, during install, you can choose which microphones you want installed!


----------



## Ben

tritonely said:


> Can you delete or not download mic positions? I can't afford 100+ gb on my ssd. How much gb is only a mix mic for every instrument group?


Yes, you can chose what mics and instrument sections you want to download. A mic position requires 3-4 GB space, the mono mic approx. half of that.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

richhickey said:


> *The Sound and Mics*
> 
> The second thing that threw me initially was the sound. I immediately loaded up the Classic Decca Tree mix and turned off the reverb, only to be greeted with a strident, ROMpler-like sound. It ends up the culprits are the Mid mics, which even in that mix are far too loud, and in this library, not particularly flattering of the strings at all. It's funny how VSL seems somewhat afraid of being too wet, such emphasis of the mid mics and treatment of the trees as almost an ambience source (de-emphasized and delayed by default) is characteristic of all the Synchron libs. But the tree recordings are _really, really_ good, and Synchron stage is a sweet room for strings. I recommend you just pull the trees up and listen for a while, get acclimated to the sound of the sections and the room, then just bring in the closer mics a smidge for detail (unless you are going for more of an effect). That said, the mid mics have been, in other Synchron releases, a good resource for a dryer sound. Here, they can be somewhat grating and need to be reserved for modest additional bite. The solo, while not a first chair, does pull in the detail of a single player quite well. The full mic set, in addition to surround and high stereo mics, adds a second solo and a ribbon. The second solo is yet another detail tool, and the ribbon is everything the mid is not - flattering, warm and characterful. Terrific.


Good review as usual, I'm always looking forward to it.

Don't understand me wrong – Synchron Strings is really well recorded and has everything VSL stands for (meant in a positive way, of course). But the presets... don't like any of them in either Synchron Strings Pro or the BBO libraries I tested.

Always wondered why the decca tree is delayed in the Synchron libraries in general. Maybe it's the same with other users who don't like the library, just because of the "wrong" mixes. Sorry, I don't have a better word for "wrong". I just don't like this sound aesthetic, and it's not compatible with these "standard decca tree + outrigger" sound I hear and like e.g. in Hollywood Strings or CineStrings. Of course, totally different rooms, whereas MGM Sony isn't that different in size and sound compared to Synchron, in my opinion.

I also tried the decca tree without delay, and even though the sound is immediately "better" to me, I think you need more microphones for this huge room. A highly liked preset is "Wide surround to stereo", which is also the basis for the MIRx Synchron wide preset. I love it in MIR Pro, but not in the real libraries.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

richhickey said:


> The full mic set, in addition to surround and high stereo mics, adds a second solo and a ribbon. The second solo is yet another detail tool, and the ribbon is everything the mid is not - flattering, warm and characterful. Terrific.


Don't have the money right now, but I really want to buy and test the library. Still a lot of time till the offer ends.  These ribbon mics are really interesting and maybe the missing part for the sound I want.


----------



## stigc56

stargazer said:


> This works - I saved some Sound Variation maps on a Windows slave machine and opened them on macOS.


I also installed S1 on my windows server and found that it worked.


----------



## Dear Villain

I'm working on a string orchestra piece right now, using Elite Strings. Wow! The detail and richness of sound, along with the crisp staccatos, agile legato that's handling some very demanding runs, and the ability to really vary the quality of the attacks/decays makes this a winner. I have yet to even begin exploring the mic positions, which I'll do after I've got the nitty gritty out of the way. 

Looking forward to sharing my results in the coming days.


----------



## ptram

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> I just don't like this sound aesthetic, and it's not compatible with these "standard decca tree + outrigger" sound I hear and like e.g. in Hollywood Strings or CineStrings.


Alternative mixes from the guest engineers they host when recording live would be great! There is the standard set of mixes, and then alternative mixes following a different aesthetic.

Paolo


----------



## Saxer

I like really it. Finally a fine chamber string section.


----------



## CT

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Maybe it's the same with other users who don't like the library, just because of the "wrong" mixes.


I share your puzzlement here. 

I am loathe to say anything that impugns anyone's work, but... I have this sneaking feeling that VSL would be very well served by bringing some, let's say, new perspectives into their demo process. Not only for new libraries, but for the older ones as well, which are surely not done justice by demos with distortion/audible compression, boxy reverb, yada yada yada.... 

I want to believe. My memory of using the older libraries before jumping ship, and some choice examples by VI wizards over the years, it all tells me that it's possible to at least _somewhat_ mitigate the problems some of us have with the apparent sound of these tools. It just has to be spotlighted much more! It's great to be able to try (if you own a dongle already) and return something if it truly doesn't live up to one's standards, but people won't even have to rely on that if the true potential of this stuff is put on full display.


----------



## FireGS

Synchron has been quite a departure from other libraries (Kontakt based) that I've used before, but I'm not finding anything I don't quite like yet. I'm really surprised by this library. Also, by the name of it, I never would have used the Surround to Stereo Downmix presets, but holy hell do I like the sound of the Wide Sur to Stereo.


----------



## FireGS

And the molto vibrato, and Espressivo patches are magical.


----------



## Petrucci

In BBO strings and SSP I like Lush Surround To Stereo mix presets, I wonder how the same ones sound in SES.


----------



## FireGS

Petrucci said:


> In BBO strings and SSP I like Lush Surround To Stereo mix presets, I wonder how the same ones sound in SES.


I wish I could post something I'm working on, but man, it sounds good.

I've been collecting strings in this smaller size for a while now (Con Moto, NSS, MSS divisi's) and this really fits in well. Really feels like it can be the bread and butter library, and the others fill in their niche when the piece fits. Maybe a really "con moto" cello part would be better suited for CM than ES, but I think it all depends on the context.

I was seriously doubting the tone of the library, and wondered why I went for the full library instead of just trying out the standard library, but right now I'm very glad to have them all.

One thing I'd note, and this may be a personal taste thing, but I find the Mixerpreset's panning of the mics to be a little too directionally panned left and right. It sounds much more full if you set the powerpan of the mics a *little* more center when using the Wide Sur to Stereo settings.

Example, V1 mid mics are here:






and simply going to this made a lot of difference to me:


----------



## molemac

Frederick said:


> Obvious answer: Dimension strings comes with a lot more articulations (e.g. open strings, sordino, sul tasto, etc) and you can build your own ensembles. Great for endless sculpting. The Elite Strings on the other hand is a true Synchron stage recording that also takes advantage of the insight that it matters what and how you let the players play during the recordings. It's a better fit as divisi strings to Synchron Strings Pro. It should be easier to program.
> 
> I have Dimension Strings myself, but I have already ordered the full library of the Elite Strings.


@Frederick and are you happy to have both? Is the overall sound better in Elite? I have DSS synchronised but wonder if another £500 is really worth it Having just laid out for MSS. Anyone tried layering Dss and Elite?


----------



## madfloyd

molemac said:


> @Frederick and are you happy to have both? Is the overall sound better in Elite? I have DSS synchronised but wonder if another £500 is really worth it Having just laid out for MSS. Anyone tried layering Dss and Elite?


Pardon my ignorance but what is MSS?


----------



## molemac

madfloyd said:


> Pardon my ignorance but what is MSS?


Audio bro modern scoring strings


----------



## Frederick

molemac said:


> @Frederick and are you happy to have both? Is the overall sound better in Elite? I have DSS synchronised but wonder if another £500 is really worth it Having just laid out for MSS. Anyone tried layering Dss and Elite?


I'm very happy to have both (Synchron-ized DSS bundle and Elite). I also have MSS by the way.

For me, if I could only have one out of these three I would choose DSS. There's no replacement for it for someone like me - a hobbyist with no deadlines and the desire to come as close as I can to the desired sound of an existing piece. (Don't ask me to show something, because I'm not happy with my skills/results yet - I still need to learn so many things.)

Elite on the other hand seems to be the ideal companion to SySPro. I like the sound a lot and it's probably not that hard to make the combination work. Both are true Synchron recordings and I prefer the mixing presets and options a lot above those of synchron-ized libraries. Also I don't think there were any ribbon or tube mics used for the DSS recordings. The fact that I have no mixing skills contributes further to this. I do believe the overall sound is better of Elite compared to DSS, but of course that's just my opinion.

A great sound is very important to me - I'm someone with (relatively) fancy equipement in my listening room. CSS for instance I find to be disappointing in sound. It's not just dark in tone, it sounds to me like you're covering your ears. I can't live with that, despite the great legato and perfectly edited shorts.

I actually think I will use Elite more than SySPro, because big strings are probably only needed in half of my mockups, but when I do need them, divisi is almost always used as well. Would you prefer to bring out DSS everytime, even when it's for bread&butter articulations? I for sure don't, but that also is just one guy's opinion.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Frederick said:


> Elite on the other hand seems to be the ideal companion to SySPro.


I'm curious to hear more of your thoughts on this, especially as a fellow owner of SySPro (and I love it). It seems that Elite has basically the same articulations (a couple of unique ones) so it would be a good companion if you wanted a smaller section size or divisi right? But beyond that, I don't see much reason to get it if you already have SySPro?


----------



## Markus Kohlprath

FireGS said:


> I wish I could post something I'm working on, but man, it sounds good.
> 
> I've been collecting strings in this smaller size for a while now (Con Moto, NSS, MSS divisi's) and this really fits in well. Really feels like it can be the bread and butter library, and the others fill in their niche when the piece fits. Maybe a really "con moto" cello part would be better suited for CM than ES, but I think it all depends on the context.
> 
> I was seriously doubting the tone of the library, and wondered why I went for the full library instead of just trying out the standard library, but right now I'm very glad to have them all.
> 
> One thing I'd note, and this may be a personal taste thing, but I find the Mixerpreset's panning of the mics to be a little too directionally panned left and right. It sounds much more full if you set the powerpan of the mics a *little* more center when using the Wide Sur to Stereo settings.
> 
> Example, V1 mid mics are here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and simply going to this made a lot of difference to me:


Could you provide an example comparing the two settings? The panning and the separation of the instruments was the only thing that I didn't quite like from the first listening of the demos.


----------



## madfloyd

If Dimension Strings is also a small string section (only slightly larger than Elite) what is the point of both? I'm relatively new to VSL so please pardon my ignorance...


----------



## Frederick

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I'm curious to hear more of your thoughts on this, especially as a fellow owner of SySPro (and I love it). It seems that Elite has basically the same articulations (a couple of unique ones) so it would be a good companion if you wanted a smaller section size or divisi right? But beyond that, I don't see much reason to get it if you already have SySPro?


The sound is more detailed, more pronounced as you would expect based on the smaller section size. It's similar with SSS and SCS. I absolutely love the sound of SSS, but I think SCS is even more important to have. SCS has the additional benefit of more articulations and since that advantage is mostly lacking here I can see your point. I just can't see how I would achieve my goal of realism without divisi options and smaller section sizes. Without Elite I would definitely use another smaller section library with SySPro. I always try to go for as many samples recorded in the same room so for me there's no need to a "beyond that". 

I suppose the mic options are different - SySPro has the back mic to add more depth. Elite has the close solo mics so you probably won't need to mix in a solo library if you want an even more detailed sound/smaller section. Clearly the intend is to further improve on the strength of each library. There's also more different mics used in Elite, which gives more versatile sound options. How important this is, really depends on the user I suppose. Personally I prefer the use of different mics above a filter/EQ/effect afterwards. The mic is real to me. That may very well be snobbery though.


----------



## Ben

madfloyd said:


> If Dimension Strings is also a small string section (only slightly larger than Elite) what is the point of both? I'm relatively new to VSL so please pardon my ignorance...


Completely different approach and sound, making it better fitting for different types of music/workflows.
In short: with Dimension Strings you get access to each player of the ensemble section. It was recorded in the Silent Stage, so you can make these strings sound as dry as you like. These strings can do anything: pop, classic, cinematic. The downside of this high level of control is the additional amount of work, but you can choose yourself the level of detail and with it the amount of work. 
Synchron Elite Strings were recorded in the Synchron Stage (a scoring stage), where the room sound is part of the concept. Imo these are perfect for a modern scoring sound, with a more detailed sound. But of course these will also work for other genres that require a smaller string ensemble as well. The included mics give you endless possibilities to shape the sound (therefore I highly recommend to get the Full Library). Check out the included mixer presets, these are also great to use as basis for your own mix!


----------



## molemac

Ben said:


> Completely different approach and sound, making it better fitting for different types of music/workflows.
> In short: with Dimension Strings you get access to each player of the ensemble section. It was recorded in the Silent Stage, so you can make these strings sound as dry as you like. These strings can do anything: pop, classic, cinematic. The downside of this high level of control is the additional amount of work, but you can choose yourself the level of detail and with it the amount of work.
> Synchron Elite Strings were recorded in the Synchron Stage (a scoring stage), where the room sound is part of the concept. Imo these are perfect for a modern scoring sound, with a more detailed sound. But of course these will also work for other genres that require a smaller string ensemble as well. The included mics give you endless possibilities to shape the sound (therefore I highly recommend to get the Full Library). Check out the included mixer presets, these are also great to use as basis for your own mix!


Are you saying with enough work on DSS it can sound identical to Elite? Specifically DSS synchronised as it has the Synchron impulse included. Or are you saying the fact that Elite is recorded in SYnchron makes the sound more detailed ie better? As an owner of DSS I am trying to see how to justify spending £500 on something I pretty much already have. Can you explain further about DSS being suitable to anything , pop, classical,cinematic and Elite being modern scoring ? Is that because it’s newer ?


----------



## Ben

molemac said:


> Are you saying with enough work on DSS it can sound identical to Elite?


No, I don't think it is possible. As said, the sampling approach is too different. I think there are cases where you might choose one library over the other, or even layer both.
If you think about getting the Elite Strings, go for it, you can return it within 14 days if bought on our website. Decide for yourself if you want/need this one.


----------



## JTB

*Patch replacement function ?????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
Like VI Pro has. I tried the text editor approach but VI-6 "Was Not Found".
What Am I doing wrong?
This should be a basic part of the Synchron Player functionality. NOT an afterthought with workarounds.
I, for one, am NOT a fan of dragging patches across the screen all day. 
Cheers.


----------



## molemac

Ben said:


> No, I don't think it is possible. As said, the sampling approach is too different. I think there are cases where you might choose one library over the other, or even layer both.
> If you think about getting the Elite Strings, go for it, you can return it within 14 days if bought on our website. Decide for yourself if you want/need this one.


Ok , good idea. Is it possible to buy the Full and return the extended if I feel I dont need it ?


----------



## Trevor Meier

Would any of the library owners (or @Ben or @Stephen Limbaugh ) be willing to take a crack at this kind of exposed ostinato legato figure? The Whisper of the Forest demo uses detaché in the cello for something similar, but with the overlaid viola part and the rest of the orchestration it’s difficult to hear how it might sound when exposed.




Dan Light said:


> Anyone got a good workflow for getting the kind of legato ostinatos found in a piece like this?


----------



## BasariStudios

Can someone in few words please explain to me how they use Elite Strings in Divisi combined with Synchron Strings Pro? 
Thanks.


----------



## fields

madfloyd said:


> If Dimension Strings is also a small string section (only slightly larger than Elite) what is the point of both? I'm relatively new to VSL so please pardon my ignorance...


Dimension Strings are extraordinary, especially in the relatively short notes, like detaché short, detaché long, spiccato, staccato, tremolos. To me they are often life-savers, since they can play difficult parts no other string library can play realistically. But their longs don't have a really beautiful tone, and moreover since the strings are dry, they do not resonate as well as the Synchron Strings. I solve this problems by layering them, or using them only in parts with fast tempo.


----------



## BasariStudios

Just pulled the Plug on it.


----------



## madfloyd

fields said:


> Dimension Strings are extraordinary, especially in the relatively short notes, like detaché short, detaché long, spiccato, staccato, tremolos. To me they are often life-savers, since they can play difficult parts no other string library can play realistically. But their longs don't have a really beautiful tone, and moreover since the strings are dry, they do not resonate as well as the Synchron Strings. I solve this problems by layering them, or using them only in parts with fast tempo.


Thank you. Some time ago I purchased Dimension Strings I but never used it and it's a fairly inexpensive purchase to get the synchron'd version of it... which I've just done (along with Elite).


----------



## BasariStudios

molemac said:


> Ok , good idea. Is it possible to buy the Full and return the extended if I feel I dont need it ?


I did the opposite, first bought Standard but what you can do:
Buy Full...if you just need Standard return the Full and then
buy Standard again, i don't know if you can return a portion
plus you will have to do new Installation either way.


----------



## Ben

BasariStudios said:


> plus you will have to do new Installation either way


This is not required. Simply delete the Full Library mic positions in the Finder/Explorer.


----------



## BasariStudios

Ben said:


> This is not required. Simply delete the Full Library mic positions in the Finder/Explorer.


Thanks Ben


----------



## Ben

As promised, here the walkthrough of "Deborah's Theme":


----------



## molemac

Ben said:


> As promised, here the walkthrough of "Deborah's Theme":



It sounds very good and a step forward in the small chamber sized sample string department but still when you listen on small speakers like an IPhone or iPad ( which is always a good test for realism) you can still hear it sounds a little synthy ( a term that means a build up of samples which creates a thickness unlike the space of real players playing the same parts together together). I realise this is hyper critical. Compare the real thing below and there is still that missing magic but it could still be the closest sounding String library to the real thing yet .


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

Trevor Meier said:


> willing to take a crack at this kind of exposed ostinato legato figure?


Sure! I am back at my rig in LA at the end of the week.


----------



## Piotrek K.

I think there is new demo buy Guy Bacos - Evening Serenade. Damn, it sounds nice.


----------



## Hanu_H

I haven't read the whole topic, but can someone tell me if there is a huge difference in the mics available in standard version vs the mics in full version? Is it worth the extra money?


----------



## Ben

Hanu_H said:


> I haven't read the whole topic, but can someone tell me if there is a huge difference in the mics available in standard version vs the mics in full version? Is it worth the extra money?








VSL Synchron Elite Strings?


If I'm not doing any Surround work, would the Synchron Elite Strings standard library be good enough, or would it still be beneficial to get the full version ? I highly recommend to go for full. You get access to: - Per section: Solo 2, Ribbon, Surround, High Surround mics - additional mixer...




vi-control.net


----------



## molemac

Ben said:


> This is not required. Simply delete the Full Library mic positions in the Finder/Explore





Piotrek K. said:


> I think there is new demo buy Guy Bacos - Evening Serenade. Damn, it sounds nice.


That Guy could make my spoons sound nice.


----------



## biomuse

BasariStudios said:


> Just pulled the Plug on it.


(I understand “pulled the plug on” something to mean, “I rejected it,” or “I DIDN’T do it/choose it/accept it.” I think this is the opposite of what you mean? You DID buy it, yes? Do you mean “I pulled the trigger on it?”)


----------



## madfloyd

Hanu_H said:


> I haven't read the whole topic, but can someone tell me if there is a huge difference in the mics available in standard version vs the mics in full version? Is it worth the extra money?


I was asking the same thing and hoping there would be some videos showing off the additional mic positions but then I did find a video that shows them. I don't have the full version but those ribbon mics sure sound good...


----------



## madfloyd

Piotrek K. said:


> I think there is new demo buy Guy Bacos - Evening Serenade. Damn, it sounds nice.


Damn! That sounds amazing...


----------



## biomuse

madfloyd said:


> Damn! That sounds amazing...


If you wanna sound like Guy you better be able to tweak like Guy.


----------



## madfloyd

biomuse said:


> If you wanna sound like Guy you better be able to tweak like Guy.


Thanks for the dose of reality.


----------



## Jack Weaver

In lieu of an actual walkthrough, this is enlightening:


----------



## muziksculp




----------



## nilblo

fields said:


> Dimension Strings are extraordinary, especially in the relatively short notes, like detaché short, detaché long, spiccato, staccato, tremolos. To me they are often life-savers, since they can play difficult parts no other string library can play realistically. But their longs don't have a really beautiful tone, and moreover since the strings are dry, they do not resonate as well as the Synchron Strings. I solve this problems by layering them, or using them only in parts with fast tempo.


How about MIR Pro to make Dimension Strings resonate like Synchron Strings? MIR PRo and Roompack 1 (Vienna Konzerthaus) maybe?


----------



## Ben

nilblo said:


> How about MIR Pro to make Dimension Strings resonate like Synchron Strings? MIR PRo and Roompack 1 (Vienna Konzerthaus) maybe?


Why not Roompack 6: *Synchron Stage Vienna*?






Vienna MIR RoomPack 6 - Synchron Stage Vienna | VSL - Software Manuals







www.vsl.info





If you enable MIRx mode with the wide configuration, you'll also get everything pre-configured:





Synchron Stage Vienna | VSL - Software Manuals







www.vsl.info


----------



## holywilly

@Ben any plan to employ signature presets to exciting Synchron libraries (Strins Pro, power drums, and percussion)? I really really love the signature presets for Elite Strings, they are truly amazing and inspiring.


----------



## nilblo

Ben said:


> Why not Roompack 6: *Synchron Stage Vienna*?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vienna MIR RoomPack 6 - Synchron Stage Vienna | VSL - Software Manuals
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vsl.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you enable MIRx mode with the wide configuration, you'll also get everything pre-configured:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synchron Stage Vienna | VSL - Software Manuals
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vsl.info


Thank you! This corona-crap makes me slow(er) in the thinking department. If there ever was such a deptartment, the jurymembers (wife & dog) are still deliberating over this..


----------



## BasariStudios

biomuse said:


> (I understand “pulled the plug on” something to mean, “I rejected it,” or “I DIDN’T do it/choose it/accept it.” I think this is the opposite of what you mean? You DID buy it, yes? Do you mean “I pulled the trigger on it?”)


Actually you are right...i bought them.


----------



## BasariStudios

This video here reminds me of a Movie Score, anyone?


----------



## molemac

Ben said:


> Why not Roompack 6: *Synchron Stage Vienna*?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vienna MIR RoomPack 6 - Synchron Stage Vienna | VSL - Software Manuals
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vsl.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you enable MIRx mode with the wide configuration, you'll also get everything pre-configured:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synchron Stage Vienna | VSL - Software Manuals
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vsl.info


Would there be any point in using Mir synchron pack if you have Dimension strings synchronised.


----------



## fduncan

BasariStudios said:


> This video here reminds me of a Movie Score, anyone?



Thin red line by HZ maybe (“Lonely house” and “Give me strength”)


----------



## mixedmoods

molemac said:


> Would there be any point in using Mir synchron pack if you have Dimension strings synchronised.


Of course. Dimension Strings are recorded dry (Silent Stage). So with the MIR Synchron Pack you can place them relatively realistically on the Synchron Stage and then blend them with Elite Strings or Synchron Strings Pro – or of course with any other dry recorded instrument.
I did this alot with MIR Teldec and Berlin Strings and other stuff. Thinking about the Synchron pack now, as I just purchased Elite Strings ...


----------



## Ben

holywilly said:


> @Ben any plan to employ signature presets to exciting Synchron libraries (Strins Pro, power drums, and percussion)? I really really love the signature presets for Elite Strings, they are truly amazing and inspiring.


Great to hear, many thanks for your feedback!
I'm still collecting feedback regarding the Inspirational presets of the Elite Strings.
If you have any detailed feedback, it will be even more helpful: What presets do you like? What additional preset would you like to see? Any kind of feedback is very helpful!


----------



## molemac

mixedmoods said:


> Of course. Dimension Strings are recorded dry (Silent Stage). So with the MIR Synchron Pack you can place them relatively realistically on the Synchron Stage and then blend them with Elite Strings or Synchron Strings Pro – or of course with any other dry recorded instrument.
> I did this alot with MIR Teldec and Berlin Strings and other stuff. Thinking about the Synchron pack now, as I just purchased Elite Strings ...


Thanks , my point was if you own Synchronized Dimension strings as they have a synchron impulse placement inbuilt . ie What would be the difference if any


----------



## mixedmoods

molemac said:


> Thanks , my point was if you own Synchronized Dimension strings as they have a synchron impulse placement inbuilt . ie What would be the difference if any


Ah, true. Sorry ...
The IR preset not as flexible as the MIR Pro package as here you can place your instruments manually on the stage and experiment with positioning, Mic emulations and all he other MIR Pro possibilities. But indeed the build in IR could be the easier (and cheaper) option ...


----------



## marco berco

molemac said:


> It sounds very good and a step forward in the small chamber sized sample string department but still when you listen on small speakers like an IPhone or iPad ( which is always a good test for realism) you can still hear it sounds a little synthy ( a term that means a build up of samples which creates a thickness unlike the space of real players playing the same parts together together). I realise this is hyper critical. Compare the real thing below and there is still that missing magic but it could still be the closest sounding String library to the real thing yet .



Indeed it is very close. In a way, no sample library can beat any great strings section but it gets closer and closer. The sound is here, the little issue could be the space as you said, but VSL Elite Strings got the closest rendering I have heard so far.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Are the dynamic layers and round robins used in Elite Strings the same as the approach in Synchron Strings Pro?


----------



## Ben

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Are the dynamic layers and round robins used in Elite Strings the same as the approach in Synchron Strings Pro?








VSL Synchron Elite Strings - FREE Slurred Legato update


Hi there! I'm very excited to announce the release of our new Synchron Elite Strings! The Synchron Elite Strings is a chamber sized string ensemble (6, 5, 4, 4, 3 players) with a flexible and vivid sound, recorded in Stage A of the Synchron Stage Vienna. You will get tons of articulations...




vi-control.net


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Ben said:


> VSL Synchron Elite Strings - FREE Slurred Legato update
> 
> 
> Hi there! I'm very excited to announce the release of our new Synchron Elite Strings! The Synchron Elite Strings is a chamber sized string ensemble (6, 5, 4, 4, 3 players) with a flexible and vivid sound, recorded in Stage A of the Synchron Stage Vienna. You will get tons of articulations...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net


Ah so even more velocity layers than Synchron Strings Pro (so not that pro anymore).


----------



## Evans

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Ah so even more velocity layers than Synchron Strings Pro (so not that pro anymore).


Elite > Pro > 1

Except wait... 1 is more detailed in some ways than Pro. So is it Elite > 1 > Pro? Elite > (1 = Pro)? How do you even write this?

Argh!


----------



## Ben

Trust your ears more then numbers in an Excel sheet...


----------



## YuyaoSG

I am wondering if the Synchron Elite Strings have the expression map?


----------



## Ben

YuyaoSG said:


> I am wondering if the Synchron Elite Strings have the expression map?


Yes, you can download Cubase expression maps from MyVSL - > Notation related.


----------



## YuyaoSG

Ben said:


> Yes, you can download Cubase expression maps from MyVSL - > Notation related.


Great, Thank you!!


----------



## prodigalson

Ben said:


> Yes, you can download Cubase expression maps from MyVSL - > Notation related.


Hi Ben,

any plans for Logic Articulation Sets or are you guys limiting it to Cubase and Studio One for now?


----------



## Ben

prodigalson said:


> Hi Ben,
> 
> any plans for Logic Articulation Sets or are you guys limiting it to Cubase and Studio One for now?


I'm not aware of any plans to support Logic expression maps. I also can't comment on it, as I have not used Logic yet...


----------



## Frederick

Ben said:


> Yes, you can download Cubase expression maps from MyVSL - > Notation related.


Great! Thank you! I was adjusting the SySPro Cubase expression maps myself for use with Elite, but I decided to wait, after I found out that it is especiallly a pain to add the fast attacks as another variant to way too many existing articulations.

I still have to make changes to make it fit my workflow better: everything needs to be of type attribute, different keyswitches that are not in my main keyboard - I don't have a light guide. These I can do with find and replace type of actions in the files, so that's less time consuming than making a lot of changes in Cubase.

Perhaps someone knows a tool to create and edit expression maps in a better way than the Cubase UI?


----------



## DaddyO

Frederick said:


> Perhaps someone knows a tool to create and edit expression maps in a better way than the Cubase UI?


If only.


----------



## DaddyO

Just picked up SY Elite Strings. Looking forward to the chance to experiment with them tomorrow.

Between SY Strings Pro, this library, and my recent pickup of SYzd Solo Strings I am pretty well covered with strings in the Synchron Player. That's cool.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Frederick said:


> Perhaps someone knows a tool to create and edit expression maps in a better way than the Cubase UI?


Highly recommend this site: https://nils-lischka.com/xpressmapp (thanks to @Nils_L who made it)


----------



## DaddyO

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Highly recommend this site: https://nils-lischka.com/xpressmapp (thanks to @Nils_L who made it)


Interesting.


----------



## Toecutter

Frederick said:


> Perhaps someone knows a tool to create and edit expression maps in a better way than the Cubase UI?





prodigalson said:


> any plans for Logic Articulation Sets or are you guys limiting it to Cubase and Studio One for now?


http://www.audiogrocery.com/a.g_toolkit_pro.htm can create and convert expression maps to articulation sets. Very useful tool by a rude developer but it is what it is, I'm not aware of any other software that converts expression maps to articulation sets and does what X-daw does.


----------



## prodigalson

Toecutter said:


> http://www.audiogrocery.com/a.g_toolkit_pro.htm can create and convert expression maps to articulation sets. Very useful tool by a rude developer but it is what it is, I'm not aware of any other software that converts expression maps to articulation sets and does what X-daw does.


oh interesting thanks. Yeah, that guy is pretty obnoxious, I've been avoiding buying from him thus far because of his attitude around here but I'll look into that to see if it might be worth holding my nose.


----------



## mixedmoods

YuyaoSG said:


> I am wondering if the Synchron Elite Strings have the expression map?


In Studio One 5.2 they do.


----------



## fields

nilblo said:


> How about MIR Pro to make Dimension Strings resonate like Synchron Strings? MIR PRo and Roompack 1 (Vienna Konzerthaus) maybe?


That provides a decent result, I agree. Nevertheless, I still can hear that the resonance is a bit artificial. In my opinion layering DS also with another library which has been recorded in a large hall works better.


----------



## babylonwaves

... as for Art Conductor Elite string support (Logic/S1/Cubase/Cakewalk), I hope to have an update after the weekend.


----------



## prodigalson

babylonwaves said:


> ... as for Art Conductor Elite string support (Logic/S1/Cubase/Cakewalk), I hope to have an update after the weekend.


great! I use your sets and had been trying to adapt the Synchron Strings Pro sets but there are just too many differences in articulations...looking forward to the update!


----------



## Fa

...had not the time to test them in depth yet, but so far so good. Pretty nice sound and very large field of application. Performance articulations sound well and are quite convenient and easy to use.

I wasn't excited by demos at all, but the product can do a lot more and different.


----------



## fduncan

Fa said:


> ...had not the time to test them in depth yet, but so far so good. Pretty nice sound and very large field of application. Performance articulations sound well and are quite convenient and easy to use.
> 
> I wasn't excited by demos at all, but the product can do a lot more and different.


Do you have the full or the standard version ? Thanks.


----------



## prodigalson

Fa said:


> ...had not the time to test them in depth yet, but so far so good. Pretty nice sound and very large field of application. Performance articulations sound well and are quite convenient and easy to use.
> 
> I wasn't excited by demos at all, but the product can do a lot more and different.


Agreed. exactly my thoughts. I'm not drawn to VSL's string sound in general but with smaller sections their insanely clean and precise approach to sampling works very well. 

Working through the articulations, of which there are so many, I was shocked at how consistent it is. everything sounds so focused, detailed and precise. 

Not an approach I love for everything but for chamber strings its great. And the synchron player/preset mixes make it very flexible.


----------



## prodigalson

fduncan said:


> Do you have the full or the standard version ? Thanks.


I have the standard version and for my purposes, I think it's sufficient. It's a Tree Array, a Mid mic and a Close mic.


----------



## fduncan

prodigalson said:


> I have the standard version and for my purposes, I think it's sufficient. It's a Tree Array, a Mid mic and a Close mic.


Thank you, I'm also considering the standard version.


----------



## holywilly

prodigalson said:


> I have the standard version and for my purposes, I think it's sufficient. It's a Tree Array, a Mid mic and a Close mic.


I’d recommend the full library, the solo2 and ribbon mics really make huge difference, and the signature presets for the full library are beyond awesome!


----------



## Evans

holywilly said:


> I’d recommend the full library, the solo2 and ribbon mics really make huge difference, and the signature presets for the full library are beyond awesome!


It's a tricky spot as a developer. Of course, you want your base product to be attractive and produce great user examples. And, yes, you want your upgraded offer to be even more attractive.

But it's a thin line. The approximately US$250 for the upgraded mics during the intro period can be a lot of money to some prospective buyers, yet some users and VSL staff are strongly encouraging it as the way to go.

Once the intro period is over, this will be more than US$880 for the library.

Would you have paid €740 for it?


----------



## prodigalson

holywilly said:


> I’d recommend the full library, the solo2 and ribbon mics really make huge difference, and the signature presets for the full library are beyond awesome!


Yeah I hear that but to be honest I don't love the signature presets that come with the standard library. I immediately just went back to the basic mix presets and started tweaking from there. While having the extra close mics would be really nice, I just don't think its worth the additional outlay at this point....maybe I'll change my mind


----------



## mixedmoods

holywilly said:


> I’d recommend the full library, the solo2 and ribbon mics really make huge difference, and the signature presets for the full library are beyond awesome!


Totally agree ... After playing around with the standard library for a day or so I upgraded to the full.
The additional mics are a good add-on – especially if you like to experiment with sound / room and blend with other libraries. Also I found some more intimate /close sounding options in the full package ...


----------



## holywilly

Evans said:


> It's a tricky spot as a developer. Of course, you want your base product to be attractive and produce great user examples. And, yes, you want your upgraded offer to be even more attractive.
> 
> But it's a thin line. The approximately US$250 for the upgraded mics during the intro period can be a lot of money to some prospective buyers, yet some users and VSL staff are strongly encouraging it as the way to go.
> 
> Once the intro period is over, this will be more than US$880 for the library.
> 
> Would you have paid €740 for it?


€740 for Elite is fair, imho. I paid €850 for Berlin and it offers far less than Elite. However, Berlin and Elite blends quite well together, especially the shorts.


----------



## donbodin

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> I like Guy's videos in general, very funny and informative, but this is rather short on articulations. Wanted to see way more of either the legato and the others. Maybe @donbodin with another review? The Synchron Strings Pro and BBO walkthroughs are excellent.


I'm on it


----------



## RMH

Everyone, those who bought Elite Strings.
All the demonstrations so far have only classical content, so is there anyone who uses pop or ballad songs?


----------



## Soundbed

Bought the standard version. Might upgrade to the ribbon mics someday.


----------



## babylonwaves

The Art Conductor update with Synchron Strings Elite support is out. Details can be found here:

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/art-conductor-7-2-available-now-vsl-synchron-strings-elite-strezov-jade-and-many-other-additions/


----------



## holywilly

RMH said:


> Everyone, those who bought Elite Strings.
> All the demonstrations so far have only classical content, so is there anyone who uses pop or ballad songs?


Absolutely! Some signature presets (intimate, Sentimental and Conciliant) full library are perfect for that!


----------



## RMH

holywilly said:


> Absolutely! Some signature presets (intimate, Sentimental and Conciliant) full library are perfect for that!


Oh? Do they have such a preset?


----------



## holywilly

RMH said:


> Oh? Do they have such a preset?


Here is the Preset descriptions


----------



## RMH

holywilly said:


> Here is the Preset descriptions


Oh, this preset is included in the full version.😢


----------



## holywilly

All Synchron full libraries worth every penny even in the stereo setup, especially for Elite strings.


----------



## FireGS

Would anyone be willing to do a comparison between ES and SSI/Pro? I'd love to hear the differences.


----------



## Toecutter

prodigalson said:


> oh interesting thanks. Yeah, that guy is pretty obnoxious, I've been avoiding buying from him thus far because of his attitude around here but I'll look into that to see if it might be worth holding my nose.


Same, it feels kinda dirty, ya know? XD First alternative I see gets my money.


----------



## RMH

I want to use the demo on the 14days, how long will it take if I request a refund?


----------



## molemac

Soundbed said:


> Bought the standard version. Might upgrade to the ribbon mics someday.


Looking forward to your feedback which is always interesting and useful. We’re you not tempted to buy the full and return the extra mikes if they didn’t seem worth the xtra expense ?


----------



## fduncan

An audio comparison between full & standard versions would be welcome.


----------



## Fa

fduncan said:


> Do you have the full or the standard version ? Thanks.


The standard, that in my opinion if you don't have to make surround or 3D productions, is enough.


----------



## Fa

RMH said:


> I want to use the demo on the 14days, how long will it take if I request a refund?


I did it for a piano. Roughly 1 week, not longer than the end of the month (for accounting reasons I guess).


----------



## RMH

Fa said:


> I did it for a piano. Roughly 1 week, not longer than the end of the month (for accounting reasons I guess).


Thank you!


----------



## Bakhtin

Hi all - really liking what I am hearing and reading, but not great timing for me financially. Wondering how VSL does their sales - with new libraries after the intro price has ended, have they offered similar sales to the intro price at BF, or perhaps could I purchase vouchers at BF?


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

Trevor Meier said:


> Would any of the library owners (or @Ben or @Stephen Limbaugh ) be willing to take a crack at this kind of exposed ostinato legato figure? The Whisper of the Forest demo uses detaché in the cello for something similar, but with the overlaid viola part and the rest of the orchestration it’s difficult to hear how it might sound when exposed.


Hey Trev, do you have a score for this piece? Is there only the unison cello section going at the beginning or is there some dovetail divisi thing happening? Or is that violas at the top of the piece? 😬


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Any new demos or walkthroughs on the horizon? It's rather calm in here.


----------



## Trevor Meier

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Hey Trev, do you have a score for this piece? Is there only the unison cello section going at the beginning or is there some dovetail divisi thing happening? Or is that violas at the top of the piece? 😬


I don't have a score and couldn't find one with a quick search. I've reached out to the composer to see if there's one hiding in a corner somewhere. 

If I can't find one I may try a transcription to see if I can sort out the orchestration.


----------



## DaddyO

Bakhtin said:


> Hi all - really liking what I am hearing and reading, but not great timing for me financially. Wondering how VSL does their sales - with new libraries after the intro price has ended, have they offered similar sales to the intro price at BF, or perhaps could I purchase vouchers at BF?


Normally VSL's intro price is their best price. If I think something is going to be a long-term core part of my library (SY Strings Pro, Elite Strings), or the intro price is just too cheap to pass up as a short-term bridge to a core library (SYzd Woodwinds), I will do everything I possibly can to buy it at introduction. Of course sometimes I just can't.

VSL as you probably already know has month-long sales that change every month. Those prices normally do not match intro prices.

VSL's four-for-three voucher sale in December (last year it started on Black Friday) is a great opportunity. I also take advantage of it if I possibly can. The free voucher can turn an intro price into an absolute steal.


----------



## Evans

DaddyO said:


> VSL's four-for-three voucher sale in December (last year it started on Black Friday) is a great opportunity. I also take advantage of it if I possibly can. The free voucher can turn an intro price into an absolute steal.


Funny enough, the vouchers keep me from making additional purchases, since a voucher must be used in full at the time it's used.

Example: If I come across something that I want but it's €350, I either have to use three vouchers and pay €50, or I have to find something that hits right at or right above €400 - using four vouchers (and possibly paying a bit more on top).

This is my first year with vouchers to use, and I've ended up avoiding a few purchases so far because the math didn't work out in a way that made me happy.


----------



## Trevor Meier

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Hey Trev, do you have a score for this piece? Is there only the unison cello section going at the beginning or is there some dovetail divisi thing happening? Or is that violas at the top of the piece? 😬


I took a crack at transcribing the first 17 bars (MIDI attached). To my ears it's 5-part chamber (Vln1, 2, Vla, Vlc, Cb) with Vln1, Vla & Vlc playing in unison off the top. When the parts split at bar 3, I think there's something very unusual in that Vln1 plays *below* the Vla for a few bars, possibly for timbre?

Have a look and see if it gets you any closer. To make my life easier I transcribed in 6/8 @ 85bpm instead of 4/4 triplets (which I suspect is how the original score is marked).


----------



## gamma-ut

Evans said:


> I either have to use three vouchers and pay €50


I'm not sure why this is a problem. You still have that €100 voucher to use on something later, which will in effect knock a percentage off the purchase price for that next thing. This is how I've used them and it's not something that's bothered me.


----------



## Evans

gamma-ut said:


> I'm not sure why this is a problem. You still have that €100 voucher to use on something later, which will in effect knock a percentage off the purchase price for that next thing. This is how I've used them and it's not something that's bothered me.


It's actually kind of beneficial to me, because it helps me scrutinize the purchase further. "Is it really worth using my vouchers and still having to pay X-amount on top?" It adds a layer to the decision making.

So, not necessarily a "problem," which isn't a word that appeared in my post above.


----------



## GdT

prodigalson said:


> oh interesting thanks. Yeah, that guy is pretty obnoxious, I've been avoiding buying from him thus far because of his attitude around here but I'll look into that to see if it might be worth holding my nose.


Oh, I have always found him very helpful and friendly. You must have misunderstood some of his translations. It is very hard working in a language that is not ones native lingo.
I have made Logic MIDI scripts for Elite Strings using his excellent XDAW software. And they are working just beatifully.


----------



## Bakhtin

DaddyO said:


> Normally VSL's intro price is their best price. If I think something is going to be a long-term core part of my library (SY Strings Pro, Elite Strings), or the intro price is just too cheap to pass up as a short-term bridge to a core library (SYzd Woodwinds), I will do everything I possibly can to buy it at introduction. Of course sometimes I just can't.
> 
> VSL as you probably already know has month-long sales that change every month. Those prices normally do not match intro prices.
> 
> VSL's four-for-three voucher sale in December (last year it started on Black Friday) is a great opportunity. I also take advantage of it if I possibly can. The free voucher can turn an intro price into an absolute steal.


Thank you, this is very helpful!


----------



## muziksculp




----------



## muziksculp

Hi

Q. Do the Studio One Pro 5.2 Sound Variations for VSL Synchron Libraries work when hosting them in VE-Pro 7 ? 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## Ben

muziksculp said:


> Hi
> 
> Q. Do the Studio One Pro 5.2 Sound Variations for VSL Synchron Libraries work when hosting them in VE-Pro 7 ?
> 
> Thanks,
> Muziksculp


No, not yet. In the meantime you could save the auto-generated Sound Variations and use these saved maps in combination with VEP.


----------



## muziksculp

Ben said:


> No, not yet. In the meantime you could save the auto-generated Sound Variations and use these saved maps in combination with VEP.


Hi Ben,

Wouldn't this require that I have the libraries on my Master PC to save the auto-generated Sound-Variations, before porting the libraries to the Slave PC ?

I'm guessing this will be possible to do via a future update to VE-Pro 7 ? It will be very handy to have this. Especially for hosting Synchron Libraries on a Slave machine/s .

Thanks.


----------



## Ben

muziksculp said:


> Wouldn't this require that I have the libraries on my Master PC to save the auto-generated Sound-Variations, before porting the libraries to the Slave PC ?


Yes, but you can de-selected all mics during installation. This way you can load the library in the player (of course you can't play anything), and the Sound Variation will work.


----------



## muziksculp

Ben said:


> Yes, but you can de-selected all mics during installation. This way you can load the library in the player (of course you can't play anything), and the Sound Variation will work.


Hi Ben,

Wow.. That's very interesting, didn't think about that.

Hopefully the Synchron Player, and S1Pro 5.2 Sound-Variations will work with VE-Pro 7 to automatically communicate automatically. and both ways, once VE-Pro 7 is updated. 

Thanks again.


----------



## holywilly

@Ben I've noticed that the signature presets crash both Cubase and VEP7 when launching. My only solution is to disable Elite instruments within VEP7 before launching Cubase Pro. I have file a crash report to the VSL support. I think the effects for the signature presets caused the crash.


----------



## Ben

holywilly said:


> @Ben I've noticed that the signature presets crash both Cubase and VEP7 when launching. My only solution is to disable Elite instruments within VEP7 before launching Cubase Pro. I have file a crash report to the VSL support. I think the effects for the signature presets caused the crash.


Can you please PM me a simple DAW project so I can reproduce this issue?


----------



## CT

Why not just share it here, then?


----------



## Dear Villain

Mike T said:


> Why not just share it here, then?


Edit: I'm going to post the piece anyway on the member's composition thread. Don't want all my work to go to waste.

In any case, I will reiterate, it is a great library and will serve people well.


----------



## molemac

for anyone who has DS and thinking of getting ELITE like me, I did a little experiment and tried a few bars of Deborahs theme with DS to see if I could get close to the ELite sound And convince myself I dont need them . Bear in mind I dont have the sordinos so just used eq and gulfoss to sordinofy them (probably overcooked) but am quite pleased with the amount of expression.
View attachment 46998-9bc7451b82d66af8446ad8313c7059ae.mp3

Real strings version to compare


----------



## biomuse

molemac said:


> for anyone who has DS and thinking of getting ELITE like me, I did a little experiment and tried a few bars of Deborahs theme with DS to see if I could get close to the ELite sound And convince myself I dont need them . Bear in mind I dont have the sordinos so just used eq and gulfoss to sordinofy them (probably overcooked) but am quite pleased with the amount of expression.
> View attachment 46998-9bc7451b82d66af8446ad8313c7059ae.mp3
> 
> Real strings version to compare



Anyone feel like mocking up a passage with SCS?


----------



## CT

Is there a reliable score for that somewhere?


----------



## biomuse

Mike T said:


> Is there a reliable score for that somewhere?


----------



## CT

Ok, found a less pianistically-arranged version so I'll take a crack at it tomorrow if nobody else does.


----------



## CT

Ah what the heck, went ahead and did it quickly. This is way too robotic as far as tempo, and it's definitely not SCS out of the box. Dressed up a bit. In comparison to the original, I'd wish for slightly more vibrato variation in these con sord legatos, as well as different flavors of transitions (Adagio might be interesting for this passage...) but I think I can sleep soundly with what SCS can do.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

molemac said:


> for anyone who has DS and thinking of getting ELITE like me, I did a little experiment and tried a few bars of Deborahs theme with DS to see if I could get close to the ELite sound And convince myself I dont need them . Bear in mind I dont have the sordinos so just used eq and gulfoss to sordinofy them (probably overcooked) but am quite pleased with the amount of expression.
> View attachment 46998-9bc7451b82d66af8446ad8313c7059ae.mp3
> 
> Real strings version to compare



Is this the VI version or syncron version? Thanks.


----------



## molemac

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Is this the VI version or syncron version? Thanks.


Synchroniced version but slightly irrelevant as I switch off all the inbuilt fx ( ie just close no internal reverbs or delays) I guess it still has some positioning under the hood ? But then I puit it through a small amount of ALtiverb 3s room and lex random hall 2.3 s. What synchron did allow me to do easily (nothing that VI cant but easier) though is try out different numbers of players playing on different strings to avoid harshness of open As etc. I used about 5 violins. I used babylon expression maps and stream deck to change vibs and arts ( some pfs, some portamentoetc) . The nice thing about synchron is you can see all the changes as they happen in the player.
However a small cheat 🥴 I added performance sample solo sea violin on the last phrase to get the molto effect. 
Just for a laugh I also did a MSS version as it has sordino (I dont have expanded so no legato) . Using just one divisi section per part . My impression is that it’s not so good for exposed smaller stuff . (Despite nice having real sordino )
View attachment 46997-01f63983ecf773080ceaccf140d29367.mp3

Tried using the MSS solo violin instead of Performance but it’s a bit too constant molto vib (cant seem to change the amount of vib on it)


----------



## RMH

@Ben
What's the difference between synchron chamber and elite?


----------



## Dietz

RMH said:


> @Ben
> What's the difference between synchron chamber and elite?


-> https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Synchron_Package/Synchron_Chamber_Strings
-> https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Synchron_Series/Synchron_Elite_Strings


----------



## borisb2

molemac said:


> for anyone who has DS and thinking of getting ELITE like me, I did a little experiment and tried a few bars of Deborahs theme with DS to see if I could get close to the ELite sound And convince myself I dont need them . Bear in mind I dont have the sordinos so just used eq and gulfoss to sordinofy them (probably overcooked) but am quite pleased with the amount of expression.
> View attachment 46998-9bc7451b82d66af8446ad8313c7059ae.mp3
> 
> Real strings version to compare





Mike T said:


> Ah what the heck, went ahead and did it quickly. This is way too robotic as far as tempo, and it's definitely not SCS out of the box. Dressed up a bit. In comparison to the original, I'd wish for slightly more vibrato variation in these con sord legatos, as well as different flavors of transitions (Adagio might be interesting for this passage...) but I think I can sleep soundly with what SCS can do.



tricky one .. comparing these 2 to the Elite version I do like the expressiveness of Elite most but prefer the tone of SCS. At higher dynamics (towards the "climax" at bar 10-11) elite as well as DS gets so metallic while SCS keeps its smoothness .. one can't have it all .. 
Testing with Adagio is actually a good idea - lets have a look


----------



## borisb2

here's a version of Deborah's Theme with Light & Sound Chamber Strings .. pretty happy with the result after only 30 min tweaking.
I then took it for an extra spin and added a touch of CSS+CSSS only on Violins1 and really only in the background .. heaven opened up, that version really sings 
View attachment deborahsThemeLSCS.mp3


----------



## RMH

Blind TEST!
What do you best?

#1
View attachment #1.mp3

#2
View attachment #2.mp3

#3
View attachment #3.mp3

#4
View attachment #4.mp3


----------



## Evans

Someone call me when the blind test is over.


----------



## doctoremmet

Straight from the gut reaction.

#1. A decent amount of vibrato and a pretty dense full sound. Maybe a bit synthy even, but that may as well be my spoiled ears. By now you can have the actual BBCSO play in front of me blindfolded and I'll tell you it's a sample.

#2. Somehow the way these instruments are panned distracts me. They sound less muddy than #1, different EQ going on there. They also sound more spacious to me, in a good way. Smaller ensemble size? Overall I like these.

#3. This is the only audio clip that has 42 in it. So that's a dead giveaway innit? These are Douglas Adams approved. Fun fact I just picked up in my new book about the Prophet 5: Douglas Adams apparently was quite the synth-head and used to own a Prophet 5. Right, who cares. Anyway, these strings sound buzzier to me than #1 and #2. So far, I think I like #2 the best, this is the runner-up and #1 comes last. I bet you've recorded just one sample, and the only difference between them is you low-passed them in decreasing amounts.

#4. Very tight clean sound. Way less molto vibrato than #3. Quite like them actually. So final score:

Number two's my winner, followed by #3 and #4 as a combined runner-up, and number 1 has to come last.

Does this mean I am now to be exposed as the true Miroslav 2 fan I know I am?  and I actually hate my revered 8Dio strings?


----------



## RMH

doctoremmet said:


> Straight from the gut reaction.
> 
> #1. A decent amount of vibrato and a pretty dense full sound. Maybe a bit synthy even, but that may as well be my spoiled ears. By now you can have the actual BBCSO play in front of me blindfolded and I'll tell you it's a sample.
> 
> #2. Somehow the way these instruments are panned distracts me. They sound less muddy than #1, different EQ going on there. They also sound more spacious to me, in a good way. Smaller ensemble size? Overall I like these.
> 
> #3. This is the only audio clip that has 42 in it. So that's a dead giveaway innit? These are Douglas Adams approved. Fun fact I just picked up in my new book about the Prophet 5: Douglas Adams apparently was quite the synth-head and used to own a Prophet 5. Right, who cares. Anyway, these strings sound buzzier to me than #1 and #2. So far, I think I like #2 the best, this is the runner-up and #1 comes last. I bet you've recorded just one sample, and the only difference between them is you low-passed them in decreasing amounts.
> 
> #4. Very tight clean sound. Way less molto vibrato than #3. Quite like them actually. So final score:
> Number two's my winner, followed by #3 and #4 as a combined runner-up, and number 1 has to come last.
> 
> Does this mean I am now to be exposed as the true Miroslav 2 fan I know I am?  and I actually hate my revered 8Dio strings?


Thank you for your detailed opinion. I have about 10 days to spare. Until then, I will let you know the answer after collecting opinions from many people. Please bear with me until then.😘

#4 fixed the vibrato. It's a bit disappointing compared to other instruments. 😁


----------



## doctoremmet

Good. So my reputation (insofar I have one) won’t get ruined until the first days of May then. 

Also, after the second listen they now all sound like a Roland MT32. So my final guess will be: MT32 playing the same patch, but you used a low pass filter to gradually cut out more and more low frequencies.


----------



## Casiquire

RMH said:


> Blind TEST!
> What do you best?
> 
> #1
> View attachment #1.mp3
> 
> #2
> View attachment #2.mp3
> 
> #3
> View attachment #3.mp3
> 
> #4
> View attachment #4.mp3


I think 1 and 3 have a smooth connected performance sound versus 2 and 4 which sound a little less natural, not in their tone but in their performance, maybe with the legato too. So as far as being convincing I'm going with 1 and 3


----------



## gamma-ut

#2 gets off to a weak start compared to #1, which has some lushness on its side in the crescendi, but seems to have some more life in the bowing though the panning gets a bit weird towards the end (8Dio?). #3 is more bow-on-string (so likely close mic and not 100% through a convolution - VSL VI?) and from a single listen admittedly may suffer from some balance issues - violins perhaps too loud in places in an unnatural way. #4 didn't seem too bad, but I'd pick #2 and maybe spend some time massaging #3 into shape.

Are they playing the same MIDI? As #1 may have advantages if that's the case.


----------



## Soundbed

I just installed Synchron Elite and played it for the first five minutes. For those who don't like the Synchron Pro and Elite Legato, is the issue that it's too ... "fast" ? Meaning, you cannot hear the transition between the notes "enough"? If not, what don't you like?


----------



## Soundbed

About an hour into playing with them. Not disappointed at all.

I don't think I'll be getting the extra mics this time around. Maybe in November?


----------



## muziksculp




----------



## Markus Kohlprath

Soundbed said:


> I just installed Synchron Elite and played it for the first five minutes. For those who don't like the Synchron Pro and Elite Legato, is the issue that it's too ... "fast" ? Meaning, you cannot hear the transition between the notes "enough"? If not, what don't you like?


I'm also pretty surprised about how much I like Elite strings. It could be that some simply expect the transitions to sound bad because it's vsl and they hear what they expect because of former experience. For my ears until now I'm yet to hear anything annoying or bad I have to say.


----------



## Eptesicus

Markus Kohlprath said:


> It could be that some simply expect the transitions to sound bad because it's vsl and they hear what they expect because of former experience.



No. They sound pretty bad.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Soundbed said:


> About an hour into playing with them. Not disappointed at all.
> 
> I don't think I'll be getting the extra mics this time around. Maybe in November?


Replacing MSS already?


----------



## prodigalson

Eptesicus said:


> No. They sound pretty bad.


No, they don't. Isn't subjectivity great?


----------



## Eptesicus

prodigalson said:


> No, they don't. Isn't subjectivity great?


If you think judgement on whether a virtual strings performance sounds realistic or authentic or not is subjective, then i guess so.

However, you will notice that my post was in response to someone questioning the objectivity of anyone who dislikes these strings...


----------



## prodigalson

Eptesicus said:


> If you think judgement on whether a virtual strings performance sounds realistic or authentic or not is subjective, then i guess so.


Yes, thats exactly what a "judgement" is. It is not fact.


----------



## Toecutter

Soundbed said:


> About an hour into playing with them. Not disappointed at all.
> 
> I don't think I'll be getting the extra mics this time around. Maybe in November?


How do you compare them to MSS?


----------



## Eptesicus

prodigalson said:


> Yes, thats exactly what a "judgement" is. It is not fact.


(taken from my edited post)

You will notice that my post was in response to someone questioning the objectivity of anyone who dislikes these strings...


----------



## Toecutter

RMH said:


> Blind TEST!
> What do you best?
> 
> #1
> View attachment #1.mp3
> 
> #2
> View attachment #2.mp3
> 
> #3
> View attachment #3.mp3
> 
> #4
> View attachment #4.mp3


#3 is real strings. I didn't like any of the samples performance-wise, if I had to choose by the sound alone I'd go with #1


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Funny i thought #3 was CSS.


----------



## Sarah Mancuso

I'm not really convinced by the legato in any of those blind-test examples...

My out-of-left-field guess, probably wrong, is that all four of them are Elite Strings with different settings.


----------



## doctoremmet

Sarah Mancuso said:


> My out-of-left-field guess, probably wrong, is that all four of them are Elite Strings with different settings.


I have the same suspicion, they’re all either MT32 or edirol.


----------



## Eptesicus

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Funny i thought #3 was CSS.



That is what i thought. It certainly has the most lyrical/connected feel out of the lot. Just the first few notes highlights this sort of thing.


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

@RMH whats up with the tuning in #3? 😬


----------



## AEF

2-4-3-1.

None sound convincing at all. 1 has terrible transitions. 3 has terrible vibrato. 2 and 4 are bearable but barely.


----------



## Markus Kohlprath

Eptesicus said:


> (taken from my edited post)
> 
> You will notice that my post was in response to someone questioning the objectivity of anyone who dislikes these strings...


I´ve just been looking for an explanation why some may find the note transitions bad because I cannot hear it that much. At least not worse than most other libraries. As anybody who has been into music for a while knows objectivity is something that hardly exists in that area anyway and we can easily be fooled by our expectations. I have experienced it many times that something I liked very much in the evening was meh in the next morning and vice versa. So maybe tomorrow I might judge differently. But my very unexpected positive feelings about Elite Strings last now for several days already.
I have worked with chamber string ensembles and to my ears SCS and Elite Strings come closest to the real thing from what I came across until now. Judging Elite Strings only from Demos not from putting my hands on them.
And apart from the transitions what sounds really very good to my ears are the releases. Especially when I compare them to the other examples from above.


Eptesicus said:


> No. They sound pretty bad.


Can you elaborate this objective judgment? What is it that sounds bad?


----------



## Eptesicus

AEF said:


> 2-4-3-1.
> 
> None sound convincing at all. 1 has terrible transitions. 3 has terrible vibrato. 2 and 4 are bearable but barely.



To be fair to all the libraries, i think they could all do with some better programming. 

For a start the timing is all over the place, but i imagine the poster probably didn't spend much time polishing them all up


----------



## doctoremmet

Eptesicus said:


> To be fair to all the libraries, i think they could all do with some better programming.


I agree. I wasn’t particularly emotionally engaged by any of the runs.


----------



## Eptesicus

Markus Kohlprath said:


> I´ve just been looking for an explanation why some may find the note transitions bad because I cannot hear it that much. At least not worse than most other libraries. As anybody who has been into music for a while knows objectivity is something that hardly exists in that area anyway and we can easily be fooled by our expectations. I have experienced it many times that something I liked very much in the evening was meh in the next morning and vice versa. So maybe tomorrow I might judge differently. But my very unexpected positive feelings about Elite Strings last now for several days already.
> I have worked with chamber string ensembles and to my ears SCS and Elite Strings come closest to the real thing from what I came across until now. Judging Elite Strings only from Demos not from putting my hands on them.
> And apart from the transitions what sounds really very good to my ears are the releases. Especially when I compare them to the other examples from above.
> 
> Can you elaborate this objective judgment? What is it that sounds bad?


Ive tried to explain earlier in the thread.

I think the best way to describe it is to just listen to the violin melody between 35 - 55 secs in this demo for the library




Martin Tichy said:


> Looks like JRR jumped the gun here... More info on this at 3 pm Vienna time!
> In the meantime, here's a demo by Levente Kovacs:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dropbox - File Deleted
> 
> 
> Dropbox is a free service that lets you bring your photos, docs, and videos anywhere and share them easily. Never email yourself a file again!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And before you ask, no more info prior to the release
> Cheers, Martin/VSL


No musician can honestly tell me that sounds right? Come on. Almost every note has its own separate attack and that passage is quite clearly intended to be a lyrical melody. There is no connection there, and if a real string player was sweeping between those notes there would be no perceivable attack or sharp change in velocity like there is there. The composition is very nice, but the library (the violin melody especially) doesn't come close to replicating live strings.

It is an almost intangible thing to describe, but if you like them, then enjoy them. However, this is not the sort of thing I personally would be looking for in virtual strings though (in terms of its melodic/legato ability).

To clarify, I haven't knocked the rest of what the library can do. i think the other articulations sound pretty good, and the overall tone of it is very nice. Things like that melodic passage in that demo just kill it for me sadly.


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

The Elite Strings though handle stuff like this exceedingly well. A balanced/connected mix between accent, legato, staccato, slurs, and fast legato, through a crescendo is something that in practice is much, much more useful than choosing a legato patch and running with that for a 90 seconds of music.


----------



## molemac

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> The Elite Strings though handle stuff like this exceedingly well. A balanced/connected mix between accent, legato, staccato, slurs, and fast legato, through a crescendo is something that in practice is much, much more useful than choosing a legato patch and running with that for a 90 seconds of music.


So does DS , sometimes (often ) we need to play a melody which involves long lyrical notes, that’s where we come a cropper.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

i think # 1 is the better recording and is ES standard.


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

molemac said:


> So does DS , sometimes (often ) we need to play a melody which involves long lyrical notes, that’s where we come a cropper.


What does "come a cropper" mean?

Dimension Strings has certain advantages, not the least of which is being able to lock to a specific string (sul G, or whatever).


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

molemac said:


> Synchroniced version but slightly irrelevant as I switch off all the inbuilt fx ( ie just close no internal reverbs or delays) I guess it still has some positioning under the hood ? But then I puit it through a small amount of ALtiverb 3s room and lex random hall 2.3 s. What synchron did allow me to do easily (nothing that VI cant but easier) though is try out different numbers of players playing on different strings to avoid harshness of open As etc. I used about 5 violins. I used babylon expression maps and stream deck to change vibs and arts ( some pfs, some portamentoetc) . The nice thing about synchron is you can see all the changes as they happen in the player.
> However a small cheat 🥴 I added performance sample solo sea violin on the last phrase to get the molto effect.
> Just for a laugh I also did a MSS version as it has sordino (I dont have expanded so no legato) . Using just one divisi section per part . My impression is that it’s not so good for exposed smaller stuff . (Despite nice having real sordino )
> View attachment 46997-01f63983ecf773080ceaccf140d29367.mp3
> 
> Tried using the MSS solo violin instead of Performance but it’s a bit too constant molto vib (cant seem to change the amount of vib on it)


Thank for the detailed explanation. I can't hear the silents stage at all except on the 2 1st notes of the Melodie maybe. Pretty encouraging since i got syncron DS recently and the acoustic is what I'm worried about.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> What does "come a cropper" mean?
> 
> Dimension Strings has certain advantages, not the least of which is being able to lock to a specific string (sul G, or whatever).


Something like fail heavily. Had to look it up...


----------



## Markus Kohlprath

Eptesicus said:


> Ive tried to explain earlier in the thread.
> 
> I think the best way to describe it is to just listen to the violin melody between 35 - 55 secs in this demo for the library
> 
> 
> 
> No musician can honestly tell me that sounds right? Come on. Almost every note has its own separate attack and that passage is quite clearly intended to be a lyrical melody. There is no connection there, and if a real string player was sweeping between those notes there would be no perceivable attack or sharp change in velocity like there is there. The composition is very nice, but the library (the violin melody especially) doesn't come close to replicating live strings.
> 
> It is an almost intangible thing to describe, but if you like them, then enjoy them. However, this is not the sort of thing I personally would be looking for in virtual strings though.


I get what you mean. Doesn't sound that bad to me but it has weakness. Hard to say if it could be done better with better programming. I suppose so. (Maybe this is nonsense but the a bit pronounced attacks could be intended). On the other hand- which library is better on such things? This is an honest question. To get melodies right especially from this kind is the hardest thing for me with samples.


----------



## CT

I am not a big fan of any of those blind examples honestly. The last one sounds the most like a real group of strings though, or rather, the least like fake computer strings. Not sure what is going on with the third... some really bad EQ?


----------



## molemac

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Something like fall heavily. Had to look it up...


To come a cropper is to fail , come undone or basically f...up


----------



## Soundbed

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Replacing MSS already?


No, haha. These were intended for "detail" and that little extra to give the huge power of MSS a bit more agility and some elegant fine-tuning. But they are ... amazingly impressive, I have to say. While not "cheap" they are a tremendous value, even for the Standard Edition.

In other words, GAS and FOMO.


----------



## RMH

Eptesicus said:


> To be fair to all the libraries, i think they could all do with some better programming.
> 
> For a start the timing is all over the place, but i imagine the poster probably didn't spend much time polishing them all up


Wow..!!
I got goosebumps. I can't believe it's so accurate


----------



## Soundbed

Markus Kohlprath said:


> I get what you mean. Doesn't sound that bad to me but it has weakness. Hard to say if it could be done better with better programming. I suppose so. (Maybe this is nonsense but the a bit pronounced attacks could be intended). On the other hand- which library is better on such things? This is an honest question. To get melodies right especially from this kind is the hardest thing for me with samples.


hmm, sure, I think I can get a different "performance" with different "programming".


Eptesicus said:


> just listen to the violin melody between 35 - 55 secs in this demo for the library
> 
> No musician can honestly tell me that sounds right? Come on. Almost every note has its own separate attack and that passage is quite clearly intended to be a lyrical melody. There is no connection there, and if a real string player was sweeping between those notes there would be no perceivable attack or sharp change in velocity like there is there. The composition is very nice, but the library (the violin melody especially) doesn't come close to replicating live strings.


Thanks for pointing out what you didn't like, I wasn't listening to this example while I was playing with it myself, and I wasn't hearing what this example demonstrates.

here's me trying quickly -- rubato a bit, just listening for different ways to work with the legato transitions for that melody:

first vln1 + 2 + vla, 
then vln 1 only, 
then vln 2 only, 
finally vla only

all using same midi, all using "Close Decca Tree" mic preset from standard edition

(this mic preset exposes the instruments a bit more - the 2nd half of the 2nd violins particularly interested me)

articulation was: 

01 VelXF sus - MOD :: Perf. leg .agile > molto vibrato > Auto Speed > [whichever Legato it chooses] > Soft Release > Normal attack

Initially I was using 02 VelXF - MOD but I couldn't get away from the "disconnected" feeling like in the Demo file at any velocity, so I let the mod wheel control the sustained dynamics and this is what we hear in mine ... they are more connected, although sometimes sound a bit closer to bow change transitions with these closer mics too.


----------



## borisb2

borisb2 said:


> here's a version of Deborah's Theme with Light & Sound Chamber Strings .. pretty happy with the result after only 30 min tweaking.
> I then took it for an extra spin and added a touch of CSS+CSSS only on Violins1 and really only in the background .. heaven opened up, that version really sings


quoting my own post .. there's a first time for everything  .. but I'm surprised that the LSCS-version didn't get much attention .. I thought for a 149.- library it sounded really good (also considering one could tweak further to add more expression (didnt have much time yesterday) - I do like the sound. At no time it gets too harsh




RMH said:


> Blind TEST!
> What do you best?
> 
> #1
> View attachment #1.mp3
> 
> #2
> View attachment #2.mp3
> 
> #3
> View attachment #3.mp3
> 
> #4
> View attachment #4.mp3


think in all of these there is too less CC1-movement .. as somebody wise was once stating: "there is no such thing as (static) sustained string playing - there is always movement"


----------



## CT

borisb2 said:


> but I'm surprised that the LSCS-version didn't get much attention


I thought both sounded nicer than most other takes, though the one including CSS was a little more musically-intentioned whatever that means.


----------



## Soundbed

Toecutter said:


> How do you compare them to MSS?


I mean, so much is different... so, they have _some_ comparable scope, although MSS has more stuff and usually more controls over all that stuff.

Contrasts come to mind more than comparisons...

 MSS | VS | Synchron Elite
=========================
PLAYER: Kontakt | vs | Synchron Player
ENS SIZE: Large | vs | Smallish
AESTHETIC: Hollywood | vs | Vienna?
EQ/VERB: Futz w/it | vs | Instant Gratification Presets
SOUND: Big/Choral | vs | Detailed, Elegant
OPTIONS: Overwhelming | vs | Just enough for demanding tasks

You probably really only want to hear about the sonic differences, and VSL Elite is ust way more of an instant gratification library. Straight out of the box it feels lighter, easier to play and "manage" and even understand (I've spent some time with Synchron player) ... it's all around easier to get to grips with and feels enjoyable.

BUT - After a few hours, I can already feel its limitations and the "it does what it does" factor creeping in. I think if people like the sound they should definitely go for it.

Whereas, if they don't love the sound of MSS but think they might be able to "sculpt" it into something that works for them, MSS will probably serve even more purposes than Elite strings in the long run.

*There really can't be an either / or answer though *(not that you specifically asked for one) because in the world of string sampling products there are more differences (to me) than similarities. You either appreciate the differences and evaluate the two as such or ... well ... or I guess your wallet tells you that you can only afford one and you must choose which qualities you really want / "need".


----------



## Markus Kohlprath

Interesting, the seperated notes are more audible here. Sometimes this is desirable but for a soaring lyrical line there should be a smoother transition I would say. Maybe more overlapping, and less pronounced note starts or another legato articulation. Is it possible?


----------



## Soundbed

Markus Kohlprath said:


> Interesting, the seperated notes are more audible here. Sometimes this is desirable but for a soaring lyrical line there should be a smoother transition I would say. Maybe more overlapping, and less pronounced note starts or another legato articulation. Is it possible?


where? (you didn't quote a post to clarify an example to which you're responding)


----------



## Soundbed

RMH said:


> Blind TEST!
> What do you best?
> 
> #1
> View attachment #1.mp3
> 
> #2
> View attachment #2.mp3
> 
> #3
> View attachment #3.mp3
> 
> #4
> View attachment #4.mp3


where are the answers?


----------



## BasariStudios

I can honestly and comfortably say that Synchron Elite Strings
its the best thing that happened since Sliced Bread...
I even opened a whole topic about it.


----------



## BasariStudios

RMH said:


> Blind TEST!
> What do you best?
> 
> #1
> View attachment #1.mp3
> 
> #2
> View attachment #2.mp3
> 
> #3
> View attachment #3.mp3
> 
> #4
> View attachment #4.mp3


For me number 3 i think.


----------



## molemac

borisb2 said:


> quoting my own post .. there's a first time for everything  .. but I'm surprised that the LSCS-version didn't get much attention .. I thought for a 149.- library it sounded really good (also considering one could tweak further to add more expression (didnt have much time yesterday) - I do like the sound. At no time it gets too harsh
> 
> 
> 
> think in all of these there is too less CC1-movement .. as somebody wise was once stating: "there is no such thing as (static) sustained string playing - there is always movement"


I felt the lscs was ok but sounded all on one level . I couldn’t hear much separation or variety. AS you say that’s before tweaking . Thanks for reminding me about it though , could be worth a look as an alt to Elite given I have DS . Tempted by ELite but I have SCS and DS and cant really see a massive improvement .


----------



## StillLife

Oh my. I have SCS and Studio Strings Pro, but this library sounds very nice, and also that player seems to make it very easy to play it. I love that it has a tutti patch with all the articulations selectable. That should make it very easy to record the entire band on one stereo track, adding key switches afterwards.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Still waiting for that Synchron Strings Pro and Elite Strings comparison. Anybody own both?


----------



## RMH

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Still waiting for that Synchron Strings Pro and Elite Strings comparison. Anybody own both?


I testing both!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

RMH said:


> I testing both!


Thoughts? Would you be willing to post some comparison examples?


----------



## RMH

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Thoughts? Would you be willing to post some comparison examples?


yes! I'll post it soon.


----------



## Guy Bacos

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Still waiting for that Synchron Strings Pro and Elite Strings comparison. Anybody own both?


----------



## CT

BasariStudios said:


> For me number 3 i think.


I know we have to be diplomatic and allow for different opinions but this blows my mind and makes me wonder what the bloody hell you are listening to. The third sounds dreadful. There might be a nice performance in there somewhere but the sound has had its guts torn out. This place is nuts sometimes!


----------



## BasariStudios

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Still waiting for that Synchron Strings Pro and Elite Strings comparison. Anybody own both?


I own both of them, Elite Full...ahh...just time.


----------



## BasariStudios

Mike T said:


> I know we have to be diplomatic and allow for different opinions but this blows my mind and makes me wonder what the bloody hell you are listening to. The third sounds dreadful. There might be a nice performance in there somewhere but the sound has had its guts torn out. This place is nuts sometimes!


Well the first few seconds seem to take my attention.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Guy Bacos said:


>



Thank you! Tonally pretty identical, as you would expect. The final bass note with SySPro really has some weight to it compared to the Elite version. Elite seems good if you need a smaller section, but sound-wise / articulation-wise, I think pretty similar to Synchron Strings Pro. Makes it easier for me!


----------



## Guy Bacos

ALittleNightMusic said:


> The final bass note with SySPro really has some weight to it compared to the Elite version.


I added a timp roll there, (for drama)  

It should have been mentioned.


----------



## RMH

It's for a short time, but thank you for responding.

As a user who already owns SYSpro, I was also curious about elite string, so I bought it a while ago to have a demo period. I wanted to take a closer look, but I have to finish this week at this point. I'll bring a proper song next week.

So I'm going to announce the results.

We removed all IR from the default default state and used Space2. That way, we can apply Reverb in the same situation.

#1 Elite Strings - Tutti XF patch, RoomRvrb remove.
Elite String used the tutti MOD patch, with the exception of Reverb remaining intact.
View attachment #1.mp3





Please understand that I didn't pay attention to the details because I played and recorded it right away in order to compare only the sound in a hurry.

#2 SYSpro - Tutti Full gange XF, Rvrb remove
View attachment #2.mp3






Strings pro is the same Tutti patch, in my personal opinion it's definitely symphonic compared to the elite. Of course, the scale is much thinner than the BBC and CSS, but the details are alive.


----------



## RMH

#3 CSS - Each patch, close mic.
CSS took notes individually and worked on them, based on the fact that the close microphone was more like an elite or string pro than a full ensemble, but it was not perfect. We used both dynamic and vibrato in CC1.
View attachment #3.mp3

The full ensemble of CSS seems appropriate to use a lot of immobile code backing or short articulations, it is a personal opinion that the top notes and melodies seem to be lacking in living things like this.

How about that?





#4 SCS - Full Ensemble patch
The SCS was a bit difficult to apply to vibrato compared to the three instruments above. It seems that it can be maximized only if it is applied separately, but there was no time to spare, so I just fixed it to a certain extent and used it.
View attachment #4.mp3


----------



## CT

That was pretty much what I thought, exactly, except that I wondered if the second might be 8Dio strings given some oddly wandering stereo image, but I guess that's the result of the ensemble patch being used.

Not sure I'm understanding your reasoning as described, but using the close mic only on any library is, I think, a mistake, and it really does CSS a disservice here.


----------



## RMH

Mike T said:


> That was pretty much what I thought, exactly, except that I wondered if the second might be 8Dio strings given some oddly wandering stereo image, but I guess that's the result of the ensemble patch being used.


I agree. I'm sure it would have been much more detailed and good sound if individual instruments were used. I'll do the next one individually.😉


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

So when do i get my free copy of Elite Strings and CSS?


----------



## RMH

Mike T said:


> if the second might be 8Dio strings given some oddly wandering stereo image


8Dio needs to be handled more delicately. So I skipped it this time.


----------



## RMH

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> i get my free copy


I'm sorry. I didn't quite understand. What do you mean? Are you downloading the music files?


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

RMH said:


> I'm sorry. I didn't quite understand. What do you mean? Are you downloading the music files?


I was making a joke. Thanks for the test btw. But i have confess that i cheated because I'm not really blind.


----------



## RMH

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> I was making a joke. Thanks for the test btw. But i have confess that i cheated because I'm not really blind.


😆


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

I would imagine Elite and Synchron Strings Pro to sound more similar, spatially, but it feels like the SSP example is not as close. Wonder why that is.


----------



## RMH

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I would imagine Elite and Synchron Strings Pro to sound more similar, spatially, but it feels like the SSP example is not as close. Wonder why that is.


🧐Oh.. Maybe..
I don't know exactly, but isn't it because the recording source of the microphone is different?
Looking at what I said again, I'm telling you the obvious.lol


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

RMH said:


> 🧐Oh.. Maybe..
> I don't know exactly, but isn't it because the recording source of the microphone is different?
> Looking at what I said again, I'm telling you the obvious.lol


Haven’t tested it, but the instrument split points could be different in the tutti presets.


----------



## RMH

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Haven’t tested it, but the instrument split points could be different in the tutti presets.


That's right. The split point of the instrument can be different. But shouldn't we consider the microphone location of the entire instrument and the recorded source? The test result was the same as above, except for Reverb.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

RMH said:


> That's right. The split point of the instrument can be different. But shouldn't we consider the microphone location of the entire instrument and the recorded source? The test result was the same as above, except for Reverb.


They sounds pretty similar here so i guess the reverb affect both libraries differently?


----------



## RMH

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> They sounds pretty similar here so i guess the reverb affect both libraries differently?



The basic list of reverb a synchron player has is the same. That's why I left out the reverb and used the other one. Isn't that why the nuance is similar? There's no way I can check what VSL did when they made the video.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Good point. No way to know.


----------



## Markus Kohlprath

Soundbed said:


> where? (you didn't quote a post to clarify an example to which you're responding)


Yes sorry. I was referring to the melody example you provided showing vln1,2 and viola:


Soundbed said:


> hmm, sure, I think I can get a different "performance" with different "programming".
> 
> Thanks for pointing out what you didn't like, I wasn't listening to this example while I was playing with it myself, and I wasn't hearing what this example demonstrates.
> 
> here's me trying quickly -- rubato a bit, just listening for different ways to work with the legato transitions for that melody:
> 
> first vln1 + 2 + vla,
> then vln 1 only,
> then vln 2 only,
> finally vla only
> 
> all using same midi, all using "Close Decca Tree" mic preset from standard edition
> 
> (this mic preset exposes the instruments a bit more - the 2nd half of the 2nd violins particularly interested me)
> 
> articulation was:
> 
> 01 VelXF sus - MOD :: Perf. leg .agile > molto vibrato > Auto Speed > [whichever Legato it chooses] > Soft Release > Normal attack
> 
> Initially I was using 02 VelXF - MOD but I couldn't get away from the "disconnected" feeling like in the Demo file at any velocity, so I let the mod wheel control the sustained dynamics and this is what we hear in mine ... they are more connected, although sometimes sound a bit closer to bow change transitions with these closer mics too.


----------



## Soundbed

Markus Kohlprath said:


> Yes sorry. I was referring to the melody example you provided showing vln1,2 and viola:


Guess it depends on what you mean by separated. The demo example had a variety of items happening (described earlier) that my example did not (or at least to a lesser extent depending on what you’re listening for).

So the point was to show that the example was not the only type of legato elite could perform for a particular melody.

one of the things that was happening in the demo was notes were disconnected by getting quieter (like riding the mod wheel down at the transitions, or, choosing an art that sort of crescendos into each new note?). 

my example had a couple spots esp near the end of vln2 where the transitions sounded connected but more like bow change transitions rather than fingered.

it was - in retrospect - maybe a bit of a challenge to get everything fully lyrical and connected in one long line, so, I see and understand the legato criticisms better now.

But it wasn’t too bad.

it sort of goes back to what I asked about the legato feeling “fast” ... I haven’t found a way to “slow it down” a touch (long before becoming portamento).

but there’s a lot to say about every transition, for each instrument section, and I guess I could look at a some other packages to see what could more easily play that line with its leaps in a really super “phrased” way rather than a series of (fairly well executed) mostly- connected intervals.


----------



## borisb2

molemac said:


> I felt the lscs was ok but sounded all on one level . I couldn’t hear much separation or variety. AS you say that’s before tweaking . Thanks for reminding me about it though , could be worth a look as an alt to Elite given I have DS . Tempted by ELite but I have SCS and DS and cant really see a massive improvement .


tweaked the LSCS-version a bit further .. I could actually see that blending with Elite nicely .. (if I would have Elite)

View attachment deborahsThemeV2.mp3


----------



## Sovereign

Soundbed said:


> it sort of goes back to what I asked about the legato feeling “fast” ... I haven’t found a way to “slow it down” a touch (long before becoming portamento).


It certainly contributes to the issue. The legato approach emphasises playability over realism. It's a given when you want the playing to feel responsive and nearly instant, you will be forced to cut into the transient more. Libraries with better legato don't do this, at the cost of some additional latency. I bought Elite but returned it, the slower legato is just not passable to me.


----------



## Ben

Soundbed said:


> Guess it depends on what you mean by separated. The demo example had a variety of items happening (described earlier) that my example did not (or at least to a lesser extent depending on what you’re listening for).
> 
> So the point was to show that the example was not the only type of legato elite could perform for a particular melody.
> 
> one of the things that was happening in the demo was notes were disconnected by getting quieter (like riding the mod wheel down at the transitions, or, choosing an art that sort of crescendos into each new note?).
> 
> my example had a couple spots esp near the end of vln2 where the transitions sounded connected but more like bow change transitions rather than fingered.
> 
> it was - in retrospect - maybe a bit of a challenge to get everything fully lyrical and connected in one long line, so, I see and understand the legato criticisms better now.
> 
> But it wasn’t too bad.
> 
> it sort of goes back to what I asked about the legato feeling “fast” ... I haven’t found a way to “slow it down” a touch (long before becoming portamento).
> 
> but there’s a lot to say about every transition, for each instrument section, and I guess I could look at a some other packages to see what could more easily play that line with its leaps in a really super “phrased” way rather than a series of (fairly well executed) mostly- connected intervals.


You can always also dial up the legato blur - maybe this is the dial you are looking for?


----------



## molemac

borisb2 said:


> tweaked the LSCS-version a bit further .. I could actually see that blending with Elite nicely .. (if I would have Elite)
> 
> View attachment deborahsThemeV2.mp3


Much better, I like the tone ( possibly nicer than Elite ) Elite version seems more detailed but less smooth(harsh) than this. Oh God now I have to consider another blooody string library . At least $149 is a bargain. Maybe I get Elite standard and instead of the full mikes buy LSCS as well. It never ends. Performance samples have announced end of the line for Con Motto suggesting Voyage is getting close, so the sensible thing would be to wait , but then you lose out on intro offers etc...

The String gods have us by the short and curlys, I need a job quick. ( Short and Curlys for our non Uk members hopefully is self explanatory unlike coming a cropper)


Joking aside what I like about Elite is even if the sound isn’t exactly what you want it would be a very good writing and demoing tool that would get you close to what the real players would do in the detail.
You will get less surprises when you record but still get the joy of what it sounds like when samples are replaced by real people playing together, the extra emotion and aliveness.

If only I knew how , I would make my own library.


----------



## Sarah Mancuso

Ben said:


> You can always also dial up the legato blur - maybe this is the dial you are looking for?


What does the legato blur control do?


----------



## Ben

Sarah Mancuso said:


> What does the legato blur control do?


It controls how much the two notes of a transition overlap. In my experience the default of 30 (for most libraries) is just right, but you might want to adjust it depending on taste and material. You can also change it via automation.


----------



## RMH

Can anyone help me?

I'm an elite string standard version. So I can't listen to Solo2's sound.

Can someone upload Solo1 and Solo2 to the dry sound?


----------



## Soundbed

RMH said:


> Can anyone help me?
> 
> I'm an elite string standard version. So I can't listen to Solo2's sound.
> 
> Can someone upload Solo1 and Solo2 to the dry sound?


If someone does this and is kind enough to play also the ribbon mic in isolation that would be helpful to me.


----------



## Soundbed

Ben said:


> You can always also dial up the legato blur - maybe this is the dial you are looking for?


I tried it yesterday and it did not do what I was hoping ... I will try to remember to upload the same examples with blur at max to hear the difference


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Ribbon mics are smooth. If you own either HO, LSCS or United Strings of Europe you can try and solo them and get an idea of what to expect. I'm pretty sure Deborah's Theme use them on the VSL demo.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Soundbed said:


> I tried it yesterday and it did not do what I was hoping ... I will try to remember to upload the same examples with blur at max to hear the difference


I'd love to heart it with and without The Blur!


----------



## Soundbed

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Ribbon mics are smooth. If you own either HO, LSCS or United Strings of Europe you can try and solo them and get an idea of what to expect. I'm pretty sure Deborah's Theme use them on the VSL demo.


I love the Ribbons on HO, don't have the others.


----------



## Soundbed

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> I'd love to heart it with and without The Blur!


done but before i upload it i might as well do the same with SCS ... what patch should I use in SCS? Performance Legato or Legato Performance ? (seems silly to ask this because they are named so similarly)

EDIT - I guess I'll try the Legato Performance because it has a speed control I can set at ~30 and full to make the comparison sort of similar


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Soundbed said:


> done but before i upload it i might as well do the same with SCS ... what patch should I use in SCS? Performance Legato or Legato Performance ? (seems silly to ask this because they are named so similarly)


You mean SCS has a blur option?


----------



## Sarah Mancuso

Soundbed said:


> done but before i upload it i might as well do the same with SCS ... what patch should I use in SCS? Performance Legato or Legato Performance ? (seems silly to ask this because they are named so similarly)


Nowadays I usually use Performance Legato, as those patches are newer and it's convenient to have the spiccato overlays on high velocities, but Legato Performance offers more control in other ways (like allowing you to turn down the legato transition speed). I don't think there's one right answer there, as either way has benefits and tradeoffs.


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

Sovereign said:


> you will be forced to cut into the transient more.


A transient in a legato transition?


----------



## Soundbed

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> You mean SCS has a blur option?


no it sounds like SCS is trying to time-stretch the legato transition which is having weird side effects at the extremes of the slider. i don't think VSL is changing "speed" (time stretching or otherwise) so much as expanding the duration of the overlap? but it's very, very subtle in slower passages I think, unless I'm missing something. might have more of an audible difference if the note transitions are very quick. i.e., "blur" in a run


----------



## Soundbed

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> A transient in a legato transition?


i think @Sovereign meant you need to cut into the *transition* sample. (not the transient)


----------



## Sarah Mancuso

Soundbed said:


> no it sounds like SCS is trying to time-stretch the legato transition which is having weird side effects at the extremes of the slider. i don't think VSL is changing "speed" (time stretching or otherwise) so much as expanding the duration of the overlap? but it's very, very subtle in slower passages I think, unless I'm missing something. might have more of an audible difference if the note transitions are very quick. i.e., "blur" in a run


Is that happening? I've always been under the impression that SCS is just starting the interval sample from an earlier point when decreasing legato speed, so that you get more of the pre-transition in there.


----------



## muziksculp

Ben said:


> It controls how much the two notes of a transition overlap.


Hi @Ben ,

I'm trying to imagine this graphically, but I don't really understand what you mean here. 

"The two notes of a Transition overlap" ? Can you explain this in a bit more detail. 

Thanks.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Ben ,
> 
> I'm trying to imagine this graphically, but I don't really understand what you mean here.
> 
> "The two notes of a Transition overlap" ? Can you explain this in a bit more detail.
> 
> Thanks.


ins't it like crossfade? Either way, I'd like some clarification on this too.


----------



## muziksculp

Sovereign said:


> It certainly contributes to the issue. The legato approach emphasises playability over realism. It's a given when you want the playing to feel responsive and nearly instant, you will be forced to cut into the transient more. Libraries with better legato don't do this, at the cost of some additional latency. I bought Elite but returned it, the slower legato is just not passable to me.


I think what @Sovereign would like is a way to control the length of the Legato Transition one decides to use, i.e. for slow lyrical legato lines, a longer transition would be more suitable, at the expense of a some latency to the playability, and when shorter/faster legato transitions are needed, the user can shorten the legato transition length, which reduces the playable latency, and feel more responsive. 

I'm not sure how VSL uses their Legato Blur feature, I don't think it changes the length of the transition in any way. I would be interested in knowing more about this detail. 

The long Legato transitions in CSS are what make it sound very lyrical, that's what I think @Sovereign would like VSL to offer in their Legato implementation, I would like that too.


----------



## biomuse

Eptesicus said:


> Ive tried to explain earlier in the thread.
> 
> I think the best way to describe it is to just listen to the violin melody between 35 - 55 secs in this demo for the library
> 
> 
> 
> No musician can honestly tell me that sounds right? Come on. Almost every note has its own separate attack and that passage is quite clearly intended to be a lyrical melody. There is no connection there, and if a real string player was sweeping between those notes there would be no perceivable attack or sharp change in velocity like there is there. The composition is very nice, but the library (the violin melody especially) doesn't come close to replicating live strings.
> 
> It is an almost intangible thing to describe, but if you like them, then enjoy them. However, this is not the sort of thing I personally would be looking for in virtual strings though (in terms of its melodic/legato ability).
> 
> To clarify, I haven't knocked the rest of what the library can do. i think the other articulations sound pretty good, and the overall tone of it is very nice. Things like that melodic passage in that demo just kill it for me sadly.


Fixed it for you Y/N?
100% VSL


----------



## CT

Soundbed said:


> no it sounds like SCS is trying to time-stretch the legato


There isn't any time-stretching going on there, it's just controlling how much of the interval you hear basically.


----------



## Ben

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> ins't it like crossfade? Either way, I'd like some clarification on this.


Pretty much (I don't know the exact details as well, just a general idea, so take it with a grain of salt): Legato Blur let's you control the length of this crossfade into the transition.



muziksculp said:


> I don't think it changes the length of the transition in any way.


Exactly.



muziksculp said:


> I'm not sure how VSL uses their Legato Blur feature, I don't think it changes the length of the transition in any way. I would be interested in knowing more about this detail.
> 
> The long Legato transitions in CSS are what make it sound very lyrical, that's what I think @Sovereign would like VSL to offer in their Legato implementation, I would like that too.


That's not how our legatos work, and therefore it's impossible to control the length of the transition.
We focus on the classical legato sound that you would get "by default" from an ensemble performing. It's not meant to sound stylized and over-the-top / a hybrid of legato and portamento (this is not a critique to this kind of legato, just not the legato we aim for in this library).


----------



## Ben

My impression so far after reading all the different comments, here and in other threads: Many people hear certain styles of legatos in a library they like, and they try to benchmark each library to it (again, nothing wrong with that, that's how we humans work). But sometimes this can get in the way in discussions, especially since you get used to a certain style after a while, as this style becomes your version of "legato-reality" / "how real strings sound" (habit).

Imo: Listen to a library and decide for yourself if you like the sound / legato / whatsoever, and if it will fit your style of music and your sound.
Not every library aims to get _the _specific same sound (it does not exist) - and that's great; this way you have multiple options to find the best fit for your current job!


----------



## Soundbed

Mike T said:


> There isn't any time-stretching going on there, it's just controlling how much of the interval you hear basically.


ok, well ... it really started to tear apart esp for the violas at the slowest settings ... I may have misinterpreted the sound for time stretching


----------



## Eptesicus

Ben said:


> That's not how our legatos work, and therefore it's impossible to control the length of the transition.
> *We focus on the classical legato sound that you would get "by default" from an ensemble performing. It's not meant to sound stylized and over-the-top / a hybrid of legato and portamento (this is not a critique to this kind of legato, just not the legato we aim for in this library).*


This seems to imply that flowing and lyrical playing is not "classical" and that it is over the top and stylized..?

A slightly bizarre take to be honest. Smooth and lyrical playing is one of the most important things in string music (and one that admittedly no library has got spot on yet...if it would ever be possible).

That sort of flowing lyrical connection between notes is one of the biggest missing links between samples and real players and it certainly is not the same as a "a hybrid of legato and portamento". As i posted earlier about that passage in the demo - it just does not sound in anyway realistic, nor like how an actual violin section would play that melody.

Just to clarify, it has nothing to do with preferring one legato type over another. It is simply a yearning for more realism from samples. The connection between the notes IS the playing. That is what creates a musical performance, and I'm sure many of us want sample libraries to be able to capture the essence of that more. It is why things like repetition sampling is so interesting and something i think should be explored more. This connection between notes doesnt just apply to legato. Whilst on paper other articulations are not "connected" as such, in a real perfroemance, they are in terms of sound and movement on the instrument.


----------



## CT

Soundbed said:


> ok, well ... it really started to tear apart esp for the violas at the slowest settings ... I may have misinterpreted the sound for time stretching


I think it's that, at the slowest settings, the graft between the sustain and interval is just not as smooth.


----------



## Soundbed

Elite and SCS and CSS ... darnit I should have added MSS lol

EDIT @Ben I think what some people might be looking for is demonstrated at 13:06 when CSS comes in with the slow transitions. I'm not positive, but this, I think, is the kind of legato that feels "slow" long before it becomes portamento, but CSS does not have the overall timbre of Synchron Strings Elite.

So "they" (I jokingly refer to "them" as the Legato Police) are hoping for a legato option like this, with the rest of the advantages that VSL is offering, including the overall timbre and so on.

0:00 VSL Elite less Blur 
1:25 VSL Elite max Blur 
2:47 Talking about VSL 
7:22 Talking about SCS 
8:56 SCS "slower than default" 
10:18 SCS "slowest it still sounded ok" 
11:44 CSS "fast Advanced" 
13:06 CSS "slow Advanced"


----------



## Sarah Mancuso

Ben said:


> Pretty much (I don't know the exact details as well, just a general idea, so take it with a grain of salt): Legato Blur let's you control the length of this crossfade into the transition.
> 
> 
> Exactly.
> 
> 
> That's not how our legatos work, and therefore it's impossible to control the length of the transition.
> We focus on the classical legato sound that you would get "by default" from an ensemble performing. It's not meant to sound stylized and over-the-top / a hybrid of legato and portamento (this is not a critique to this kind of legato, just not the legato we aim for in this library).


I'm confused by this. Legato speed control doesn't (usually) mean timestretching portamento or anything like that. It's usually just done by sliding back the sample start point of the recorded transition so that you hear more of the pre-transition note from it. I don't understand how legato can be recorded in such a way that that isn't possible.


----------



## Ben

Eptesicus said:


> This seems to imply that flowing and lyrical playing is not "classical" and that it is over the top and stylized..?


That's exactly not what I said...



Eptesicus said:


> As i posted earlier about that passage in the demo - it just does not sound in anyway realistic, nor like how an actual violin section would play that melody.


That's _your _opinion. And it is good to have an opinion, as long as you let others have theirs.


----------



## Soundbed

Ben said:


> That's not how our legatos work, and therefore it's impossible to control the length of the transition.
> We focus on the classical legato sound that you would get "by default" from an ensemble performing. It's not meant to sound stylized and over-the-top / a hybrid of legato and portamento (this is not a critique to this kind of legato, just not the legato we aim for in this library).


I don't think what people are looking for is over the top, nor are they seeking a hybrid of legato and portamento.


----------



## Eptesicus

Ben said:


> That's exactly not what I said...
> 
> 
> That's _your _opinion. And it is good to have an opinion, as long as you let others have theirs.


"*classical legato sound that you would get "by default" from an ensemble performing"*

So what did you mean by that? ^

What is "classical legato"?


----------



## Ben

Soundbed said:


> I don't think what people are looking for is over the top, nor are they seeking a hybrid of legato and portamento.


It's just my impression, that at least many of the users posting here in the thread the last few days are looking for this kind of legato.

But you have also keep in mind that there are a lot of people that are perfectly happy with this legato style (I can tell you from all the feedback I've got so far).


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

Eptesicus said:


> What is "classical legato"?


----------



## CT

God, samples have muddied the waters so much when it comes to basic performance techniques....


----------



## Soundbed

Ben said:


> It's just my impression, that at least many of the users posting here in the thread the last few days are looking for this kind of legato.


To oversimplify, I _think_ they want the VSL sound but with the CSS legato.

_EDIT: Not to mention all the other advantages of VSL strings libraries including the player, the wealth of articulations, and so on._


----------



## TCMQL1

I feel like the differences people have on this topic ultimately depend on how one defines a 'legato transition' in sampling terms.

The Cinematic Studio Series has what Alex calls 'long form' legato transitions, which aim to capture all the nuanced dynamic/tuning shifts that occur during the longest of transitions a player might play. But these very long transitions aren't what you hear all or even most of the time with real string players. Most transitions are fairly quick. Alex gets around this with his scripting wizardry (and people like it a lot, clearly!), but I can absolutely understand opting to instead record the way real players will be playing most of the time, which is what I think Ben is trying to say VSL aims for here.


----------



## Ben

Soundbed said:


> To oversimplify, I _think_ they want the VSL sound but with the CSS legato.


Pretty much my impression as well.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Soundbed said:


> To oversimplify, I _think_ they want the VSL sound but with the CSS legato.


And all those extra articulations.


----------



## Ben

TCMQL1 said:


> I feel like the differences people have on this topic ultimately depend on how one defines a 'legato transition' in sampling terms.
> 
> The Cinematic Studio Series has what Alex calls 'long form' legato transitions, which aim to capture all the nuanced dynamic/tuning shifts that occur during the longest of transitions a player might play. But these very long transitions aren't what you hear all or even most of the time with real string players. Most transitions are fairly quick. Alex gets around this with his scripting wizardry (and people like it a lot, clearly!), but I can absolutely understand opting to instead record the way real players will be playing most of the time, which is what I think Ben is trying to say VSL aims for here.


Exactly, thanks for helping out! Please keep in mind that I'm not a native English speaker, and with the language barrier it's sometimes a little challange for me to overcome when discussing these details


----------



## Soundbed

TCMQL1 said:


> I feel like the differences people have on this topic ultimately depend on how one defines a 'legato transition' in sampling terms.
> 
> The Cinematic Studio Series has what Alex calls 'long form' legato transitions, which aim to capture all the nuanced dynamic/tuning shifts that occur during the longest of transitions a player might play. But these very long transitions aren't what you hear all or even most of the time with real string players. Most transitions are fairly quick. Alex gets around this with his scripting wizardry (and people like it a lot, clearly!), but I can absolutely understand opting to instead record the way real players will be playing most of the time, which is what I think Ben is trying to say VSL aims for here.


Thanks for helping clarify.


Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> And all those extra articulations.


Edited.


----------



## Soundbed

Also can we start having Avatar badges for all of the members of team "Legato Police" ?


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

I guess we're left to either layer solo strings or DS individual players playing portamento articulations on top to smooth out the transition even more. That is if one owns solo strings or DS. Anyone can try that? The legato are not a deal braker for me mind you but it would help to hear it.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Soundbed said:


> Also can we start having Avatar badges for all of the members of team "Legato Police" ?


Who wants to be a Police these days?


----------



## molemac

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> I guess we're left to either layer solo strings or DS individual players playing portamento articulations on top to smooth out the transition even more. That is if one owns solo strings or DS. Anyone can try that? The legato are not a deal braker for me mind you but it would help to hear it.


I just bought Elite full(on 14 day trial) so can try that but DS legato is the same if not a little less fluid. You could be on to something with the portamento though. Another way round it might be to use Joshua Bell as the 7th player. Have to say I do like the Elite DIvisi preset for instant intimate strings chord writing (something I have been searching for for a long time )


----------



## biomuse

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> I guess we're left to either layer solo strings or DS individual players playing portamento articulations on top to smooth out the transition even more. That is if one owns solo strings or DS. Anyone can try that? The legato are not a deal braker for me mind you but it would help to hear it.








VSL Synchron Elite Strings?


Ive tried to explain earlier in the thread. I think the best way to describe it is to just listen to the violin melody between 35 - 55 secs in this demo for the library No musician can honestly tell me that sounds right? Come on. Almost every note has its own separate attack and that passage...




vi-control.net





This ^ was Synchronized Solo Strings violin, perf-leg sul, Orchestral Distant mixer preset, layered over the melodic line in Levante Kovacs' demo.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

molemac said:


> I just bought Elite full(on 14 day trial) so can try that but DS legato is the same if not a little less fluid. You could be on to something with the portamento though. Another way round it might be to use Joshua Bell as the 7th player. Have to say I do like the Elite DIvisi preset for instant intimate strings chord writing (something I have been searching for for a long time )


So you couldn't resist huh?  The Divisi preset is only available in the full version righ?

I feel like ES is the library I've been waiting for all my life. The size, details etc...


----------



## RMH

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> So you couldn't resist huh?  The Divisi preset is only available in the full version righ?
> 
> I feel like ES is the library I've been waiting for all my life. The size, details etc...


Should I do a full version demo(14day)? Why is this thread so active? Is there a problem?


----------



## muziksculp

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> So you couldn't resist huh?  The Divisi preset is only available in the full version righ?


The _Standard version_ has the Tube Mid Mic, so I'm guessing it will have a Divisi Preset using that Mic. 

Quote from VSL product page:

The sections of six first violins, five second violins, four violas, four cellos and three double basses were recorded separately at their designated positions on stage. Pre-configured mixer presets provide a wide variety of tonal characteristics, from intimate to ambient, from lush to sparkling, from contemporary to the “golden fifties” sound. *Divisi Presets* focus on the solo channels of the first and second chair, with added ribbon or tube mid microphones.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

RMH said:


> Should I do a full version demo(14day)? Why is this thread so active? Is there a problem?


I think it shows interest. But feel free to make a video showing off what each microphone sounds like.


----------



## RMH

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> I think it shows interest. But feel free to make a video showing off what each microphone sounds like.


Very good idea!


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

muziksculp said:


> The _Standard version_ has the Tube Mid Mic, so I'm guessing it will have a Divisi Preset using that Mic.
> 
> Quote from VSL product page:
> 
> The sections of six first violins, five second violins, four violas, four cellos and three double basses were recorded separately at their designated positions on stage. Pre-configured mixer presets provide a wide variety of tonal characteristics, from intimate to ambient, from lush to sparkling, from contemporary to the “golden fifties” sound. *Divisi Presets* focus on the solo channels of the first and second chair, with added ribbon or tube mid microphones.


I'm gonna try to make due with the standard lib anyway so i shouldn't ask. But it's always good to know beforehand... Also, the tube mid mic are most-likely those big newmann microphones so it's gonna sounds great. There's video presentation showing what the standard lib sounds like here: 

I'll just have to resist getting those ribbons mic.


----------



## RMH

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> I'm gonna try to make due with the standard lib anyway so i shouldn't ask. But it's always good to know beforehand... Also, the tube mid mic are most-likely those big newmann microphones so it's gonna sounds great. There's video presentation showing what the standard lib sounds like here:
> 
> I'll just have to resist getting those ribbons mic.



This music is not regato transitioned. That's too bad.🙄


----------



## Arbee

molemac said:


> You could be on to something with the portamento though.


Yes, I just watched the below VSL Synchron Strings Pro video and it occurred to me that a short portamento may indeed be the missing link that so many of us are banging on about (e.g. for a few notes of a scale flowing under one bow).


----------



## RMH

Arbee said:


> Yes, I just watched the below VSL Synchron Strings Pro video and it occurred to me that a short portamento may indeed be the missing link that so many of us are banging on about (e.g. for a few notes of a scale flowing under one bow).



OH! That's good! 👍


----------



## Casiquire

Ben said:


> Exactly, thanks for helping out! Please keep in mind that I'm not a native English speaker, and with the language barrier it's sometimes a little challange for me to overcome when discussing these details


Your English is fantastic and reads like a native speaker.


----------



## biomuse

Ben said:


> Pretty much my impression as well.


@Ben I'd push back against the idea that the connected legato that @Eptesicus and others including myself are missing in Elite Strings is somehow foreign to VSL small ensemble products, or is somehow impractical in the context of a product like Elite.

Yes it's hard to nail expressive legato without boxing a library in, and I can understand why the choice was made that Elite should have a precise, clean legato without much pretransition sculpting of the notes.

In my redux (improved below now that's I've had a minute to CC and blend it more carefully, and placed between the original before and the solo line alone after) of that contested passage from Levente Kovac's enchanting demo, I double the melody with a mixture of regular unlooped vibrato and performance sul patches from Synchronized Solo Strings violin.

Up to you to decide whether it's an improvement, but I think it definitely confers a stronger sense of line. I'll very likely buy Elite Strings, because the sound is great and the arrangement opportunities it provides are obvious, but I have to say that having Synchronized Solo Strings alongside it is great.


----------



## muziksculp

Maybe VSL should look into hiring some of the VI-C Legato Police/consultant members when they are developing a Strings Library, just to make sure we don't keep having these critiques here.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

I've been searching and search and finally found my calling in life: I want to be a policeman in LegatoVille. Thank you!


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

I find it incredible how much people can obsess over this one particular kind of slurred legato. Sign of the times ...


----------



## CT

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I find it incredible how much people can obsess over this one particular kind of slurred legato. Sign of the times ...


If it being a "sign of the times" means that we're living in a time when people care about the small details of their fake orchestra because real ones are hard to come by and they want to get it as right as possible with what they do have, then... that's not such a bad time to live in.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Mike T said:


> If it being a "sign of the times" means that we're living in a time when people care about the small details of their fake orchestra because real ones are hard to come by and they want to get it as right as possible with what they do have, then... that's not such a bad time to live in.


Well then it's a great thing that good libraries like this one are out there, bwaha. Can ears have tunnel view too?


----------



## CT

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Well then it's a great thing that good libraries like this one are out there, bwaha. Can ears have tunnel view too?


What?


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I find it incredible how much people can obsess over this one particular kind of slurred legato. Sign of the times ...


No offense but that's your opinion. Where you see obssesion, one could see passion for what could be an amazing library. I'm not ashame to be passionate about things. life would be pretty boring if one had no passion. I respect VSL idea behind this legato but I'm not sure it's the best solution for a small section.


----------



## holywilly

The beauty of VSL is that you can try the product for 14 days. Why not take advantage of that!


----------



## muziksculp

biomuse said:


> I double the melody with a mixture of regular unlooped vibrato and performance sul patches from Synchronized Solo Strings violin.


Hi @biomuse,

I think adding the solo Synchron Strings to the original arrangement does help achieve a more lyrical slow legato melodic phrasing, and it blends very nicely with the section. 

So, you basically achieved the lyrical legato sound that many here are trying to achieve using VSL libraries, without having to have the entire violin section legatos offer that type of legato. 

The layering of the Solo Violin is good enough, as long as it is blended nicely in the mixing stage to form a cohesive string texture. 

It's more common that Solo Violin Libraries have this short-slide/portamento type of legato transitions, compared to String Sections. 

I will try to experiment with this type of layering when my time allows for it. 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and ideas. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## biomuse

muziksculp said:


> Maybe VSL should look into hiring some of the VI-C Legato Police/consultant members when they are developing a Strings Library, just to make sure we don't keep having these critiques here.


Nope. I just wanna hang at the donut shop and beat developers up about their legatos. 🎉

it’s only b/c the library’s so otherwise great that I’m, yes, obsessing a bit here.


----------



## biomuse

muziksculp said:


> Hi @biomuse,
> 
> I think adding the solo Synchron Strings to the original arrangement does help achieve a more lyrical slow legato melodic phrasing, and it blends very nicely with the section.
> 
> So, you basically achieved the lyrical legato sound that many here are trying to achieve using VSL libraries, without having to have the entire violin section legatos offer that type of legato.
> 
> The layering of the Solo Violin is good enough, as long as it is blended nicely in the mixing stage to form a cohesive string texture.
> 
> It's more common that Solo Violin Libraries have this short-slide/portamento type of legato transitions, compared to String Sections.
> 
> I will try to experiment with this type of layering when my time allows for it.
> 
> Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and ideas.
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp


I’ll be ok man. I just need a drink and a nap. 🤪

and one more transition speed in this library.


----------



## muziksculp

biomuse said:


> and one more transition speed in this library.


Haha.. but That's easier said than done.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

biomuse said:


> @Ben I'd push back against the idea that the connected legato that @Eptesicus and others including myself are missing in Elite Strings is somehow foreign to VSL small ensemble products, or is somehow impractical in the context of a product like Elite.
> 
> Yes it's hard to nail expressive legato without boxing a library in, and I can understand why the choice was made that Elite should have a precise, clean legato without much pretransition sculpting of the notes.
> 
> It's still a missed opportunity, for VSL and its users, not to have included a third choice, a midway point between that legato and full portamento. It's a good standard for a high end library to have at least three such transitions from which the user can choose, because that magic number 3 seems to be a bare minimum for aping the connectivity that real strings can produce. In a premium product like Elite, two gears only - slow and fast - frankly feels perfunctory. (Would it be even better to have four, or ten legato lengths? Sure, but yeah that's expensive to produce and we don't all have exabyte SSDs.)
> 
> What's especially maddening is, VSL is no stranger to this kind of legato for small forces - it's a hallmark of the Solo Strings products. In my redux (improved below now that's I've had a minute to CC and blend it more carefully, and placed between the original before and the solo line alone after) of that contested passage from Levente Kovac's enchanting demo, I double the melody with a mixture of regular unlooped vibrato and performance sul patches from Synchronized Solo Strings violin.
> 
> Up to you to decide whether it's an improvement, but I think it definitely confers a stronger sense of line. It also loses some precision, because now you essentially have members of a section playing two different techniques on the same part. It does the job, but it shouldn't be needed, and the sections themselves playing a more generous legato would have been superior - as long as the existing precise and porta legatos were also options. I'd have paid more for that, no question.
> 
> So it feels like VSL walked right up to the edge of greatness with Elite, and then kinda dithered at legatoville. It's frustrating. Please VSL: would you want to ride a road bike with two gears? Give us at least slow, medium, fast choices for legato writing going forward.
> 
> I'll very likely buy Elite Strings, because the sound is great and the arrangement opportunities it provides are obvious, but I have to say that if I didn't already have Synch Solo, it would be a hard pass and I can't really recommend it if you don't have or intend to get that product.


Yea 3 legato speed is ideal. You add perf detache and perf. marcato and it's even better. Remember being disappointing when i loaded Century Strings and found out it had only 2 speed. I expected it would have 3 speed like Anthology but it has only 2(unless I'm missing something?). Century can't do fast and precise like Anthology. Hope 8Dio update that at some point.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

muziksculp said:


> Hi @biomuse,
> 
> I think adding the solo Synchron Strings to the original arrangement does help achieve a more lyrical slow legato melodic phrasing, and it blends very nicely with the section.
> 
> So, you basically achieved the lyrical legato sound that many here are trying to achieve using VSL libraries, without having to have the entire violin section legatos offer that type of legato.
> 
> 
> Muziksculp


Yea he did but it took way longer than he would normally have too. It's a shame espeacially because the syncron player seems to have such a great and fast workflow. Anyway, the crisis still mostly averted.


----------



## Markus Kohlprath

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> I'll just have to resist getting those ribbons mic.



This video I find is interesting because the guy treats Elite strings exactly how one should not treat strings but how we often do as piano players. And still it doesn't sound as bad as most other libraries would do imo.

Regarding the legato discussion I would say that most of the time I prefer the legato type that ES is designed for but it would be nice, as others stated, to have more choice.
But apart from that most of the other articulations are wonderful aren't they? I like the pizzicato for instance pretty much, the shorts seem to be great too and very expressive. Just saying and judging only from demos so far.


----------



## Markus Kohlprath

Mike T said:


> If it being a "sign of the times" means that we're living in a time when people care about the small details of their fake orchestra because real ones are hard to come by and they want to get it as right as possible with what they do have, then... that's not such a bad time to live in.


Good or bad time depends not only on time but also on location. Let's not forget....


----------



## CT

Markus Kohlprath said:


> Good or bad time depends not only on time but also on location. Let's not forget....


I was obviously not hoping to encompass the entirety of human affairs in that comment....


----------



## Sovereign

TCMQL1 said:


> but I can absolutely understand opting to instead record the way real players will be playing most of the time, which is what I think Ben is trying to say VSL aims for here.


If they recorded the legato how "real players will be playing", the legato would sound better, compared to a real orchestra playing. Out of all the string libraries I own, and I have quite a few, for playing smoothly-connected emotional melodies in a slow or medium tempo it's probably the worst. I doubt it would also be fair to say that other devs all recorded players outside of a normal context and over-exaggerated the slurred legato, not like real players play, and only VSL gets it "right". That IMO is a very weird take. The reality is that the VSL legatos have a very low latency, which means the edits and cuts to the transitions are physically there and are quite drastic. There's no way around it. That's all fine if you you don't want to deal with latency, but IMO it is detrimental to the realism of the legato sound. Pretty much the same happened with MSS, but at least AudioBro fixed that issue to a high degree after numerous complaints. It's somewhat disappointing that Ben is now confirming these are hard edits and there will be no user adjustable starting point for the legato intervals.


----------



## Ben

Sovereign said:


> It's somewhat disappointing that Ben is now confirming these are hard edits


Please stop putting words in my mouth. I did not say anything like this at all.


----------



## Sovereign

Ben said:


> Please stop putting words in my mouth. I did not say anything like this at all.


"That's not how our legatos work, and therefore it's impossible to control the length of the transition".

That's what you wrote in response to Muziksculp re the possibility of user-adjustability of the transition length. My conclusion seems pretty fair in that light, unless you and I understand the word "impossible" differently.


----------



## Markus Kohlprath

Mike T said:


> I was obviously not hoping to encompass the entirety of human affairs in that comment....


True, was an unnecessary comment from me. Read too many news the last days.


----------



## holywilly

How many of you get your score recorded with live string section?


----------



## biomuse

holywilly said:


> How many of you get your score recorded with live string section?


Does a quartet count?
You can start to see why I’m obsessing here over this particular library.


----------



## Eptesicus

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I find it incredible how much people can obsess over this one particular kind of slurred legato. Sign of the times ...



It isnt obsessing about "slurred legato " . It is more about the pursuit of a more realistic sound when it comes to melodic and lyrical lines. 

I'm not sure why anyone would find that notion surprising on a forum like this that is full of film/media composers. Don't we want our libraries to be able to feel more alive and be able to emote/replicate more of the magic you get from live strings? After all, isnt writing and producing a beautifully played emotional theme a large/significant part of the job?


----------



## holywilly

Of course! What I’m trying to say is that VSL deliver the products with “right sounding articulations”. I’ve done all my mock-up with VSL strings, and they blend very well with live string section.


----------



## muziksculp

Hi,

@Ben,

I was thinking maybe it might be a good idea for VSL to consider developing a Very Lyrical Violins & Cellos, library, with the type of very long, Lyrical style Legato transitions, which also offer user control over the length, and some slide/portamento option that can be added by the user when that is needed.

This will be a separate specialty strings library, that is very well suited for the type of legato style being requested in the posts above. i.e. Synchron Lyrical Violins, Synchron Lyrical Celli , or Synchron Lyrical Strings. Using both chamber, and larger size sections, to complement Synchron Strings Pro, and Elite Strings.

@Ben, maybe you can pass this as a request to Paul, and the rest of the VSL development team, I'm sure it will be a huge seller for VSL, and super popular here on VI-C. I also think this will be a good opportunity for VSL to test new Legato options and offer them separately as an add-on library option to their Synchron Strings libraries.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## ptram

holywilly said:


> How many of you get your score recorded with live string section?


I have, a full orchestra. But I see the strings don't have a single legato! :O

Paolo


----------



## ptram

muziksculp said:


> I was thinking maybe it might be a good idea for VSL to consider developing a Very Lyrical Violins & Cellos, library


They did a poll, asking, among the other options, if we wanted various legato types. By popular demand, they went for a kid's choir. Now, try to be lyrical with those! 

Paolo


----------



## Ben

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> @Ben,
> 
> I was thinking maybe it might be a good idea for VSL to consider developing a Very Lyrical Violins & Cellos, library, with the type of very long, Lyrical style Legato transitions, which also offer user control over the length, and some slide/portamento option that can be added by the user when that is needed.
> 
> This will be a separate specialty strings library, that is very well suited for the type of legato style being requested in the posts above. i.e. Synchron Lyrical Violins, Synchron Lyrical Celli , or Synchron Lyrical Strings. Using both chamber, and larger size sections, to complement Synchron Strings Pro, and Elite Strings.
> 
> @Ben, maybe you can pass this as a request to Paul, and the rest of the VSL development team, I'm sure it will be a huge seller for VSL, and super popular here on VI-C. I also think this will be a good opportunity for VSL to test new Legato options and offer them separately as an add-on library option to their Synchron Strings libraries.
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp


Yes, I would also like something like this - imo this would be a great addition.


----------



## molemac

Here is a legato fest created by @Saxer back in 2014 for his first test on DS .
I have recreated it using DS synchronized and Elite as a comparison. I hope that's ok, if not I'll remove.

On DS I was able to double some of the legato transitions with portamento (4 players with 4 players without) as suggested by @Obi-Wan Spaghetti.

Did that a bit with the Elite version but less flexible cos of not having access to individual
View attachment Saxer test DS synchronized.mp3

View attachment Saxer test Elite.mp3

players.


holywilly said:


> How many of you get your score recorded with live string section?


I do but it doesn’t stop me spending ridiculous amounts of time and money on sampled libraries


----------



## Ben

Especially for those who can't wait for a walkthrough, here is a detailed review from @donbodin going through a lot of the included articulations (many thanks, Don!): 






Checking Out: Synchron Elite Strings by Vienna Symphonic Library


Vienna Symphonic Library goes BIG with these Small String Ensembles! With a top-notch sample set, a wealth of articulations, and the ability to adapt and sculpt your sound, these strings will be incredible for blending but I will be using them to stand alone on their own. Synchron Elite...




vi-control.net


----------



## RMH

Hello! Everyone!
I compose the Short demo!
I don't use Synchron IR.
How about that?
View attachment Elite Strings Short Demo.mp3


----------



## maestro2be

Casiquire said:


> Your English is fantastic and reads like a native speaker.


I agree. I graduated valedictorian in school and top my class in engineering college. Never once have I felt your English was bad. It’s absolutely fantastic. I would have never known had you not said it. we are very glad and privileged to have you here being so interactive with us.

keep doing you, you’re good at it.


----------



## biomuse

molemac said:


> Here is a legato fest created by @Saxer back in 2014 for his first test on DS .
> I have recreated it using DS synchronized and Elite as a comparison. I hope that's ok, if not I'll remove.
> 
> On DS I was able to double some of the legato transitions with portamento (4 players with 4 players without) as suggested by @Obi-Wan Spaghetti.
> 
> Did that a bit with the Elite version but less flexible cos of not having access to individual
> View attachment Saxer test DS synchronized.mp3
> 
> View attachment Saxer test Elite.mp3
> 
> players.
> 
> I do but it doesn’t stop me spending ridiculous amounts of time and money on sampled libraries


Makes me wonder whether what I'm really after is DS. 

On Guy's Serenade demo I'm guessing he's using mostly portamento - time stretching possible in Elite?


----------



## Ben

maestro2be said:


> I agree. I graduated valedictorian in school and top my class in engineering college. Never once have I felt your English was bad. It’s absolutely fantastic. I would have never known had you not said it. we are very glad and privileged to have you here being so interactive with us.
> 
> keep doing you, you’re good at it.


Thank you sir, very kind of you!


----------



## Ben

RMH said:


> Hello! Everyone!
> I compose the Short demo!
> I don't use Synchron IR.
> How about that?


Just so we are on the same page: There are no IRs used with any Synchron libraries. The additional reverbs are all algorithmic.

(SYNCHRON-ized libraries include IRs to put the Silent Stage recordings into the Synchron Stage)


----------



## Ben

biomuse said:


> time stretching possible in Elite?


It's possible with everything in the Synchron Player.
But if you are using many mics it can get taxing on the CPU.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

This was an interesting thread and i was reminded that real strings don't slur as much as we sample users think they do and often use a more "direct legato". So i learned something here. But is that technique appropriate for sampling? I mean I'm sure it works well in real life because the player don't all transition at the same time and that helps smooth things out, but in the sample world you have to cut the audio at some point which means the smoothing that occurs with real strings doesn't occur and you're left with a legato that will always be somewhat detache(cutt off). Which leads me to think that slurred legatos might be a more appropriate approach for sampling cause you don't have that "attack" that you have in the "direct legatos" and is easier to smooth out the transition.

So there you go, I've solved the Great Legato Mystery.  

But seriously, would VSL at least consider improving the blur function so we can exaggerate the settings when we need a really smooth transition. Assuming that works mind you.


----------



## muziksculp




----------



## biomuse

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> I mean I'm sure it works well in real life because the player don't all transition at the same time and that helps smooth things out, but in the sample world you have to cut the audio at some point which means the smoothing that occurs with real strings doesn't occur and you're left with a legato that will always be somewhat detache(cutt off). Which leads me to think that slurred legatos might be a more appropriate approach for sampling cause you don't have that "attack" that you have in the "direct legatos" and is easier to smooth out the transition.
> 
> So there you go, I've solved the Great Legato Mystery.


It occurred to me that some of the pleasing effect I heard when adding a solo legato part over the Elite section might be due merely to the fact of the timing difference of an additional instrument. So it's a good Dimensionesque move to have in one's pocket I suppose.


----------



## molemac

biomuse said:


> It occurred to me that some of the pleasing effect I heard when adding a solo legato part over the Elite section might be due merely to the fact of the timing difference of an additional instrument. So it's a good Dimensionesque move to have in one's pocket I suppose.


Yes , that’s the cool thing about DS , different timings and tunings on all 8 players and different strings too . Shame the sound of the longs isn’t as good as it could be. ELite just edges it in my view but not as flexible , so maybe a combo of the two will be the winner Especially for divisi if you need a couple of extra players occasionally or to blur the legato.


----------



## maestro2be

molemac said:


> Yes , that’s the cool thing about DS , different timings and tunings on all 8 players and different strings too . Shame the sound of the longs isn’t as good as it could be. ELite just edges it in my view but not as flexible , so maybe a combo of the two will be the winner Especially for divisi if you need a couple of extra players occasionally or to blur the legato.


Having played around with this one thing really stands out. It seems that DS simply doesn't do well in terms of achieving the spatial placement of elite and I find it a great distraction. Others may love it. It is early on and I am still experimenting.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Eptesicus said:


> It isnt obsessing about "slurred legato " . It is more about the pursuit of a more realistic sound when it comes to melodic and lyrical lines.
> 
> I'm not sure why anyone would find that notion surprising on a forum like this that is full of film/media composers. Don't we want our libraries to be able to feel more alive and be able to emote/replicate more of the magic you get from live strings? After all, isnt writing and producing a beautifully played emotional theme a large/significant part of the job?


Obviously I wouldn't be referring to it as "obsessive" if I didn't think it was the same old redundant, completely overblown, out ouf proportion and ultimately useless babble that leads to nowhere. From the usual suspects too, if I might add. Or to put it more succinctly: yawn?


----------



## biomuse

maestro2be said:


> Having played around with this one thing really stands out. It seems that DS simply doesn't do well in terms of achieving the spatial placement of elite and I find it a great distraction. Others may love it. It is early on and I am still experimenting.





Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Obviously I wouldn't be referring to it as "obsessive" if I didn't think it was the same old redundant, completely overblown, out ouf proportion and ultimately useless babble that leads to nowhere. From the usual suspects too, if I might add. Or to put it more succinctly: yawn?


I'm recent to this particular kind of hemming and hawing myself. I've never been as close to having expectations met, such that they could be meaningfully dashed. Speaks to the overall good choices and comprehensiveness of the libraries. 

Know that thing that happens in horror movies where you yell "but WHY didn't she JUST lock the DOOR?!??"
It's that kinda thing.

And devs do listen to and even fulfill suggestions. Occasionally sooner than you expect, though admittedly not often.


----------



## biomuse

maestro2be said:


> Having played around with this one thing really stands out. It seems that DS simply doesn't do well in terms of achieving the spatial placement of elite and I find it a great distraction. Others may love it. It is early on and I am still experimenting.


Are you using Synchronized DS or placing with MIR/MIRx?


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

biomuse said:


> I'm recent to this particular kind of hemming and hawing myself. I've never been as close to having expectations met, such that they could be meaningfully dashed. Speaks to the overall good choices and comprehensiveness of the libraries.
> 
> Know that thing that happens in horror movies where you yell "but WHY didn't she JUST lock the DOOR?!??"
> It's that kinda thing.
> 
> And devs do listen to and even fulfill suggestions. Occasionally sooner than you expect, though admittedly not often.


Truth be told, it just bores me so much. It's always the same and this whole ordeal here has the kind of energy you get from those Animal Planet segments where they film sloths trying to cross a road. For God's sake.

There could be so much interesting stuff to talk about, especially when something interesting comes out, like a new small sized string library, we don't get these too often ... but within the first 4 pages, you bet your ass it's gonna be the usual intro price, copy protection, legato, this and that drivel. I just don't exist in that world. Yeah. Instead of having anything meaningful to say or experience at all, let's talk about some stupid legato transitions. Again. Oh my God. Let's celebrate our complacent, drab boreism again. Let's tell ourselves it's a mark of excellence. Let's whine and think it makes us experts. I'm falling asleep thinking of it right now. So uninspiring ...


----------



## maestro2be

biomuse said:


> Are you using Synchronized DS or placing with MIR/MIRx?


I have both. I have tried full MIR with VI Pro versions, Synchronized DS, SPAT, Vienna Suite Pro, Seventh Heaven, My Bricasti M7 and many others. The issue is perhaps just the obvious one that it's not possible to get the same spatial sound of the real thing. It doesn't mean it can't sound good, it's just that DS sounds more like individual players more than a section to me. I know that was the concept and sounds maybe silly, it's just not a smooth lush group sound.

Elite sounds exactly what it is, like a group of people playing together in a good room. It has an air in the sound, a height/width to the sound while sounding fully blended together. I have had DS since its inception and it's just never been something I can get the results I want on it. More than anything, it's always about not being able to get it to spatially fool me. Elite just works instantly out of the box.

Once I introduce DS to the sound, at first I start thinking hey cool that sounds good. Then I rest and come back and think that wouldn't fool anyone. It's quite possibly just me, but I haven't ever heard results I love. I think overall I prefer a lush group sound over the individual screechy sound you can hear of each individual player that DS often presents to me. I do believe for some people they find this a strength and use it all the time for this very reason. Each to their own . I am digging Elite more.


----------



## biomuse

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Truth be told, it just bores me so much. It's always the same and this whole ordeal here has the kind of energy you get from those Animal Planet segments where they film sloths trying to cross a road. For God's sake.
> 
> There could be so much interesting stuff to talk about, especially when something interesting comes out, like a new small sized string library, we don't get these too often ... but within the first 4 pages, you bet your ass it's gonna be the usual intro price, copy protection, legato, this and that drivel. I just don't exist in that world. Yeah. Instead of having anything meaningful to say or experience at all, let's talk about some stupid legato transitions. Again. Oh my God. Let's celebrate our complacent, drab boreism again. Let's tell ourselves it's a mark of excellence. Let's whine and think it makes us experts. I'm falling asleep thinking of it right now. So uninspiring ...


LOL. I'm ok if you're ok. I agree it's not the end of the world.

What would YOU like to talk about?


----------



## CT

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Obviously I wouldn't be referring to it as "obsessive" if I didn't think it was the same old redundant, completely overblown, out ouf proportion and ultimately useless babble that leads to nowhere. From the usual suspects too, if I might add. Or to put it more succinctly: yawn?


This is quite an ironic post, bwahaha!


----------



## molemac

maestro2be said:


> I have both. I have tried full MIR with VI Pro versions, Synchronized DS, SPAT, Vienna Suite Pro, Seventh Heaven, My Bricasti M7 and many others. The issue is perhaps just the obvious one that it's not possible to get the same spatial sound of the real thing. It doesn't mean it can't sound good, it's just that DS sounds more like individual players more than a section to me. I know that was the concept and sounds maybe silly, it's just not a smooth lush group sound.
> 
> Elite sounds exactly what it is, like a group of people playing together in a good room. It has an air in the sound, a height/width to the sound while sounding fully blended together. I have had DS since its inception and it's just never been something I can get the results I want on it. More than anything, it's always about not being able to get it to spatially fool me. Elite just works instantly out of the box.
> 
> Once I introduce DS to the sound, at first I start thinking hey cool that sounds good. Then I rest and come back and think that wouldn't fool anyone. It's quite possibly just me, but I haven't ever heard results I love. I think overall I prefer a lush group sound over the individual screechy sound you can hear of each individual player that DS often presents to me. I do believe for some people they find this a strength and use it all the time for this very reason. Each to their own . I am digging Elite more.


I agree but havent had time to explore blending in a little DS to Elite even if its just a few players I am sure it can be made to work. There seems to be more clarity from ELite , like you can hear the damn violas 😱


----------



## RMH

Ben said:


> SYNCHRON-ized libraries include IRs to put the Silent Stage recordings into the Synchron Stage


Ben, I'm sorry. This is a personal opinion. SYNCHRON-IZED's Reverb doesn't seem to show much of the possibilities of instruments. 😅


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Mike T said:


> This is quite an ironic post, bwahaha!


I'm sure it is in your own mind. Now please continue with more slurred gelato.


----------



## CT

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I'm sure it is in your own mind. Now please continue with more slurred gelato.


Hey man, if you're happy being the dude who seemingly only pops in to express his displeasure at what other people are talking about, then go for it. But at least embrace that role instead of pretending that's not what you do.


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

From what I've heard so far, the sound and mostly the legato didn't convince me. Time will tell, as they say. But I know one thing for sure. I will not get tired of repeating the competitor css (s) is a wonderful example that has been sustained by time and all the great composers who keep this library in their template so far without replacing it with anything else. and why? All that is now in my opinion is observed on the market, it is a conveyor and stamping one togozhe. We are really stuck and standing still. There is no progress, the plateau has been reached. We need new technologies to blow up this market. And who will do it first? And the main question is when?


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Mike T said:


> Hey man, if you're happy being the dude who seemingly only pops in to express his displeasure at what other people are talking about, then go for it. But at least embrace that role instead of pretending that's not what you do.


Have I not been crystal clear about my displeasure at what you people are talking about? Take your own advice. Lamest form of passive agressiveness. Again, incredibly boring. I know for a fact that you don't really give a damn about this particular product.

I find it quite intriguing. But it's sad to see you guys take the energy out every single one of these threads with your same old, same old. But if that's the way you're able to enjoy yourself - don't let my comments stop you I guess? You don't have to react to to sole voice of the contrarian, or do you?

Isn't having actual performance detache a way more interesting thing to discuss than the same old legato stuff you know it's gonna be what it's gonna be anyway? This is the way they prefer to do it in Vienna, it seems.


----------



## Ben

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Have I not been crystal clear about my displeasure at what you people are talking about? Take your own advice. Lamest form of passive agressiveness. Again, incredibly boring. I know for a fact that you don't really give a damn about this particular product.
> 
> I find it quite intriguing. But it's sad to see you guys take the energy out every single one of these threads with your same old, same old. But if that's the way you're able to enjoy yourself - don't let my comments stop you I guess? You don't have to react to to sole voice of the contrarian, or do you?
> 
> Isn't having actual performance detache a way more interesting thing to discuss than the same old legato stuff you know it's gonna be what it's gonna be anyway? This is the way they prefer to do it in Vienna, it seems.


Hey Jimmy! I also think the legato-topic was now discussed in all detail possible, but if people still like to continue this discussion they can do here 

Feel free to discuss other topic in the announcement thread here: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/new-vsl-synchron-elite-strings-6-5-4-4-3.108100/
I'll be happy to answer questions as good as I can, as well as discuss anything with exception of the legatos there (we don't need two threads discussing it.
Btw, I'm also still waiting for some more feedback regarding the mixer presets  )


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> css (s) is a wonderful example that has been sustained by time and all the great composers who keep this library in their template so far without replacing it with anything else. and why?


Presumably because it is not advisable to swap in unfamiliar libraries into a template in the middle of scoring $150,000,000 movies.


----------



## Ben

Arbee said:


> Apologies for double posting across two threads but I really need to get my head around this. I'm starting to see that performance legato has changed significantly for those of us used to simply overlapping notes in the VI series to get a "same bow, same string" transition. Portamento now seems like the only way to achieve this, yes, no? To be clear, I'm not talking about super loose lyrical lines here, just regular every day transitions you'd get in any run or same string passing note.
> 
> Sorry for boring some folk on this thread but I'm persisting because I'm a long time VSL fan who loves the sound of this (and SSP) and want to make sure I'm not just missing something obvious.


As I mentioned in the other thread, there was nothing changed from a technical point on how the legatos work. You will get legatos the same way you did with all of our other libraries.

A new legato type is the "performance detache"/"perf. detach.", also known as bowed legato - here the disconnected legato is intentional.


----------



## Arbee

Thanks Ben, I deleted my post here as you responded so promptly on the other thread . If there is no technical reason for the difference I hear then I'll have to bow out now (no pun intended ). If I can make time I might have to get the library for a few days and do my own comparison.


----------



## richhickey

I still think there's too much portamento (otherwise known around here as "emotion"  in the cello legatos with 4/5th intervals. You simply can't have this much gliding baked into the standard legatos IMO as it sticks out at all the wrong times, i.e. when you're not trying to emote. This kind of thing should be on-demand only, and called portamento. Here's the same MIDI with SSPro (whose legato is well liked by owners):

View attachment prolegato.mp3


and SSElite (note the frequent Minimoog-like gliding):

View attachment elitelegato.mp3


I think they should fix this, it's not up to VSL standards.


----------



## Ben

richhickey said:


> I still think there's too much portamento (otherwise known around here as "emotion"  in the cello legatos with 4/5th intervals. You simply can't have this much gliding baked into the standard legatos IMO as it sticks out at all the wrong times, i.e. when you're not trying to emote. This kind of this should be on-demand only, and called portamento. Here's the same MIDI with SSPro (whose legato is well liked by owners):
> 
> View attachment prolegato.mp3
> 
> 
> and SSElite (note the frequent Minimoog-like gliding):
> 
> View attachment elitelegato.mp3
> 
> 
> I think they should fix this, it's not up to VSL standards.



hehe, here we go... 
(please stay civilised when discussing these two opposite views, I have to go to bed in a few minutes  )

Just to explain this phenomen: Cellos have quite a large fingerboard compared to violins and violas and also no frets like guitars do, so playing intervals larger then your fingers can physically do will result in a bit more sliding compared to violins and violas.
This effect is also there with the Strings Pro, but because there are much more players compared to the 3 in Elite Strings, the average sound is more blurred and therefore the effect is less audible.

So nothing wrong with the strings/cellos, they behave exactly the way they should (-> represent the real sound as close as possible).
If this is too much for you in certain cases you should try to use the performance detaches: these are "bowed legatos" and will probably fit closer your sound esthetics.


----------



## CT

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Have I not been crystal clear about my displeasure at what you people are talking about? Take your own advice. Lamest form of passive agressiveness. Again, incredibly boring. I know for a fact that you don't really give a damn about this particular product.
> 
> I find it quite intriguing. But it's sad to see you guys take the energy out every single one of these threads with your same old, same old. But if that's the way you're able to enjoy yourself - don't let my comments stop you I guess? You don't have to react to to sole voice of the contrarian, or do you?
> 
> Isn't having actual performance detache a way more interesting thing to discuss than the same old legato stuff you know it's gonna be what it's gonna be anyway? This is the way they prefer to do it in Vienna, it seems.


It's not passive aggressive at all: I think you're an unpleasant turd and have you on ignore because you apparently take this whiney approach enough for me to have decided I don't need to see any more Jimmy Hellfire posts. In this case, I sadly couldn't help myself. It happens. Is that not-passive enough for you?

As for giving a damn about the product, I sure do/did. Someone else on here was kind enough to provide some more isolated examples of the library than VSL itself has managed yet. I wouldn't be looking at this thread if I weren't interested, and as I and others have said before, I wouldn't be meticulously critical of VSL if they didn't do so many things right while still just falling a bit short of being totally ideal. And if you read back, I think you'll see that I wasn't even involved in this last round of "legato discussions" as whatever misgivings I still have about Elite Strings lie elsewhere. 

I know you've used VSL products for a long time. Are you perhaps a bit needlessly sensitive about people critiquing this stuff, a sensitivity which manifests as this "too cool for school" attitude whenever a conversation is "boring" and "uninspiring" to you? I can not honestly believe that you need to have it pointed out to you that as tiresome as you might find some of these repeated discussions, it is at least as tiresome and a little pathetic for you to have to repeatedly express that displeasure.


----------



## Arbee

While some views on "Synchron legato" might be contentious, like they are for most ambient libraries it seems, this is a very healthy and useful thread imho. I'm only participating because of my fondness for VSL's commitment to quality, professionalism and consistency, otherwise I'd just ignore it and move on. Can we please keep it out of the Drama Zone? Thanks


----------



## biomuse

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Isn't having actual performance detache a way more interesting thing to discuss than the same old legato stuff you know it's gonna be what it's gonna be anyway? This is the way they prefer to do it in Vienna, it seems.


But why so terse? Why not discuss the large variety of individual attacks and releases? Why not discuss the intimacy provided by ribbon spots and ability to subdivide the sections? Why not the luscious sound of the recorded ensemble?

Answer: because that's *the entire subtext of the discussion.* It's why we're all here talking about it. I'm hoping to update my ensemble library soon for the first time in quite a while.

On the legato discussion, well, this is not, in fact, the way they've "preferred to do it in Vienna" as recently as Synchronized Solo Strings. Thus my surprise, and my demonstration - with audio! - of how I could use that sister product to get a legato sound I liked for a particular passage, in a post where I said I intended to buy this library. Others have contributed similar with Dimension Strings, and a video directly comparing legato from Elite with that from other libraries. You've contributed thus far: 1) the sound of your own voice; and 2) a vaguely teen-boy icon, screen name, and posture.

Don't come on here insulting people with an interest in the library, then tell them that they don't possess interest "for a fact," nor question their expertise. That's insipid.

I'm with @Ben in thinking legato's been discussed to its conclusion. But I'm somewhat surprised at that particular one of VSL's choices in an otherwise stunning library, I've made a suggestion for future libraries in the context of my high degree of interest in this one, and I stick by that.


----------



## molemac

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Presumably because it is not advisable to swap in unfamiliar libraries into a template in the middle of scoring $150,000,000 movies.


Also depends on what kind of work you are doing, Elite will be much more appropriate for Tv composers or indie smaller budget films. You wouldn’t reach for Elite to score Superwoman. And although Css is relatively small in terms of numbers it’s not as intimate and flexible sound wise because of all the Mikes especially solo ones.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

biomuse said:


> Don't come on here insulting people


I never insult people. People _get insulted_ by things I say when they realize it applies to them, because that's _their reaction_ to what seems to be the truth. Big difference.


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

molemac said:


> You wouldn’t reach for Elite to score Superwoman.


Though, for divisi passages it could be pretty useful on large ensemble music! 😁


----------



## Piotrek K.

RMH said:


> I compose the Short demo!
> I don't use Synchron IR.
> How about that?


I really like the composition and melody. Sounds sweet and has this jrpg vibe. Also you exposed the strings very much which tells a lot about the tone of those. Thanks for that quick demo


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I never insult people. People _get insulted_ by things I say when they realize it applies to them, because that's _their reaction_ to what seems to be the truth. Big difference.


Dude, nobody but you think people are here to bash ES. People show interest in the library and have some critics and talk about it. I'd say it's been a constructive and civilize conversation for the most part(until you showed up) . Beside, did you really expect people were gonna hear a glaring problem with the library and pretend they didn't hear it and would not talk about it? In what world does that happen? I'm gonna assume that you're either a fanboy or a troll from now on cause you're not making any sense.


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Presumably because it is not advisable to swap in unfamiliar libraries into a template in the middle of scoring $150,000,000 movies.


No, it's much simpler. Because CSS(S) has a convincing legato and sounds much more natural. I'm not going to argue about timbres and styles, because it's not about that at all. The similarity to the actual performance is crucial. The performance is as close as possible to real string musicians, and not to keyboard synthesizers. In my opinion, VSL is doing something wrong, something is missing because their first woodwind legato sounds right.
Synchron Elite Strings sounds like a Sustain Patch trying to sound like a Legato Patch. It's still not on the level of CSS(S) or Con Moto or Soaring Strings.​


----------



## StillLife

By the way... I love those detaché patches! Could really work for pop / singer/songwriter stuff also. I don't think I have that articulation in any of my Spitfire libraries...


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

For a sample library with the design intention of mimicking live players, the paramount concern should be the efficacy with which that can be done. The methods by which developers create their products are unknown to us due to those developers guarding against the theft of their methods by competitors.

This makes most of the discussion about legato recording systems fruitless, because nobody here except maybe Ben, has access to these secrets. Offering technical suggestions on the sample recording, added legato delay/sample-cutting functions, or scripting without this pertinent information is little more than group-think forum speculation. Moreover, due to the nature of the internet, it is sometimes difficult to discern which of these suggestions are actually being made in good faith.

Sometimes, a developer’s demos do not meet the expectations of sample library enthusiasts. This of course is understandable because demos are usually made fairly quickly. Even for the expert demoist, with a foreign set of articulations that behave slightly different from previous releases, it requires a bit more time beyond the release date to master the new instrument. Add to that writing an original composition that features as many of the articulations as possible — the task is no mere ditty.

Perhaps my previous posts have engendered ignores from a couple users, but there is little pushback (more often, high praise) on some of the classical demos produced with the Synchron Series libraries, specifically the Mahler, the Elgar, and the Tchaikovsky.

Rest assured, rendering a realistic, smooth legato is something on which VSL has spent much effort, and it is _easy_ to do once one fully familiarizes themselves with these libraries. The VSL legato sounds good: the most critical users in this thread have said as much themselves in other threads.

The caveat is that _more_ legato options are *always* welcome: short portamento, ultra super-d-duper slow legato, etc. Non-technical suggestions that do not insist VSL take on the practices of other developers like these, are fantastic.

Lastly, it is absolutely understandable why some users shy from VSL, as these flagship “pro” libraries are not cheap and have the aforementioned learning curve, just like someone like me finds the idea of dealing with a constant legato delay, tuning problems, and articulation-to-articulation inconsistency slipshod.


----------



## jamwerks

richhickey said:


> I still think there's too much portamento (otherwise known around here as "emotion"  in the cello legatos with 4/5th intervals. You simply can't have this much gliding baked into the standard legatos IMO as it sticks out at all the wrong times, i.e. when you're not trying to emote. This kind of thing should be on-demand only, and called portamento. Here's the same MIDI with SSPro (whose legato is well liked by owners):
> 
> View attachment prolegato.mp3
> 
> 
> and SSElite (note the frequent Minimoog-like gliding):
> 
> View attachment elitelegato.mp3
> 
> 
> I think they should fix this, it's not up to VSL standards.


I like both of these.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Dude, nobody but you think people are here to bash ES. People show interest in the library and have some critics and talk about it. I'd say it's been a constructive and civilize conversation for the most part(until you showed up) . Beside, did you really expect people were gonna hear a glaring problem with the library and pretend they didn't hear it and would not talk about it? In what world does that happen? I'm gonna assume that you're either a fanboy or a troll from now on cause you're not making any sense.


It's an issue with your reading comprehension. Anyways, there's absolutely no "glaring problem" with the library and that's exactly what bores me: always the same faux-discussions about the same old stuff in every single thread because the usual police feels it's their duty to drag it down to that level every single time. It's some sort of sport.

It doesn't just happen here, it's also the same thing in every CSS thread, bohoo, the legato delay, the "issue" with the legato delay. Get the fuck over it. There's no issue. That's just how that library works. It's fine, it's a specific aspect of that library. I can make it work and it's good. Elite has a whole bunch of different legato patches and between those, I can make music work. But yeah, let's just try to make all libraries sound, feel and react exactly the same. But why don't you stop derailing the thread even more. I really don't wanna do that. If you wanna continue getting upset over me hurting someone's feelings, put that in a PM or something.


----------



## Piotrek K.

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Dude, nobody but you think people are here to bash ES. People show interest in the library and have some critics and talk about it.


Huge part of every VSL release is about how they don't understand user needs in terms of strings legato. But this is design choice by VSL. They never did that soaring legatos. Yes, they should, but they decided not to. Or maybe they are now recording "soaring legatos" addon for SyS Pro / Elite. Who knows? It's just over and over again the same discussion about design / aesthetic choices instead of what actual is in there. And I know that best, I was very adamant in disliking SYS 1 just after release. And only after I sold those I noticed what I actually sold... and sometimes I miss those. But only sometimes, don't take it as a recommendation 

I'm pretty sure that by now VSL knows very well that vi-control needs slurs and with Ben here we also know that they care for what we say. I would like to see more examples of usage, opinions about whole package etc. instead of another discussion about how VSL is doing legato.


----------



## Eptesicus

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Obviously I wouldn't be referring to it as "obsessive" if I didn't think it was the same old redundant, completely overblown, out ouf proportion and ultimately useless babble that leads to nowhere. From the usual suspects too, if I might add. Or to put it more succinctly: yawn?





Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Truth be told, it just bores me so much. It's always the same and this whole ordeal here has the kind of energy you get from those Animal Planet segments where they film sloths trying to cross a road. For God's sake.
> 
> There could be so much interesting stuff to talk about, especially when something interesting comes out, like a new small sized string library, we don't get these too often ... but within the first 4 pages, you bet your ass it's gonna be the usual intro price, copy protection, legato, this and that drivel. I just don't exist in that world. Yeah. Instead of having anything meaningful to say or experience at all, let's talk about some stupid legato transitions. Again. Oh my God. Let's celebrate our complacent, drab boreism again. Let's tell ourselves it's a mark of excellence. Let's whine and think it makes us experts. I'm falling asleep thinking of it right now. So uninspiring ...



Few things -

A.) I have never understood people's need to try and shut down debate, especially on a forum literally created so people can freely discuss things. If you dont like the conversation, you don't have to read it or take part. The internet is likely full of conversations that you are not interested in, so why get so annoyed about it? I am sure you could start your own Synchron Elite thread that specifically stated that no discussion on legato is allowed if you wanted to, and just stick to that.

B.) The reason it is being brought up again, is because it was one of the major criticisms of Synchron Strings 1. I imagine myself and others are dissapointed that VSL seemingly continue to almost stick their head in the sand about it and just simply claim that the legato is how they like doing legato and that's that (and if you don't like it tough). I think the discussion stems from the frustration that these libraries do a lot right and sound good in most other places, but get let down when it comes to having exposed melodic/lyrical lines, as it would not be ideal (or likely sound very good), to suddenly just bring in CSS/soaring strings or something when you need to score a soaring melody.


----------



## ptram

I don't have Elite Strings, but if they are like Strings Pro, I would suggest to try the _legato-molto vibrato_, and the _legato-regular vibrato-soft attack_ patches. Legato transitions are longer than in the regular legato.

I don't know if they are still shorter than Cinesamples, but I've the impression (not owning that library either) that they can be very near. Vibrato in VSL (and the same can be said of OT) is usually lighter than in more 'Hollywood-style' libraries, so in any case using a stronger vibrato could be a good choice.

How do people generally find the slurred legato in Synchron Strings I? Now that's available in the compact Optimized version of the strings, maybe they can be easily accessed by many. I can manage to publish some examples, but not immediately.

Paolo


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

Piotrek K. said:


> They never did that soaring legatos.


Did you see the ET Flying theme video with the BBO strings?


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> Because CSS(S) has a convincing legato and sounds much more natural.


Really? You think a big composer in the middle of a movie would insert a library that is only 2 weeks old into their template and then swap out all the lines they already played in with a different library? C’mon let’s be serious.


----------



## RMH

Everyone looks very sensitive because of the legato transition.


----------



## Piotrek K.

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Did you see the ET Flying theme video with the BBO strings?


This one?




Sounds nice  Which just proves my point - legato sounds the way it sounds in VSL libraries by design, not to piss people off


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Really? You think a big composer in the middle of a movie would insert a library that is only 2 weeks old into their template and then swap out all the lines they already played in with a different library? C’mon let’s be serious.


Will add or replace if it's something incredibly breakthrough. This will be heard immediately, believe me, but there is no such library yet. Wait, what kind of library are we talking about? 

I'm not writing this because I want to offend. I'm just sorry that this company doesn't seem like it's going to reach new heights. VSL is not new to this market, but a very large company with a lot of experience. They have all the prospects to make a breakthrough, to create really amazing libraries, elite and expensive, the best of the best, but they do not do it, can not or do not want to. I'm not the only one who thinks so. That's actually all. However, I am also surprised by people who refuse to understand this and find excuses for everything.


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

Piotrek K. said:


> Sounds nice  Which just proves my point - legato sounds the way it sounds in VSL libraries by design, not to piss people off


🤔 you’re saying it is not soaring/smooth in this rendition?


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> Will add or replace if it's something incredibly breakthrough.


Powell updated his template 5 months after CSS release. 😏

Previous one only contained Spitfire string libraries. 






John Powell's Updated Template


John Powell just posted a updated photo of his template in his FB page. Mainly Spitfire and Cinesamples with the addition of Berlin Brass. Pretty awesome template. Everyone's thoughts?




vi-control.net


----------



## RMH

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Powell updated his template 5 months after CSS release. 😏


He likes css. Of course, I'm a fan of cs series personally.


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

RMH said:


> He likes css. Of course, I'm a fan of cs series personally.


Totally. My point to the other guy was that the absence of a 2 week old library (VSL ES) in big composer templates was not an indication of them sucking. Kinda weird that needs to be explained to him 😂😂


----------



## Piotrek K.

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> 🤔 you’re saying it is not soaring/smooth in this rendition?


No, I meant that in BBO they made soaring legato but in elite they did different kind of legato. By design and not because they can't do soaring legato.


----------



## Ben

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> but a very large company


I think you have a wrong idea about how small the orchestral sample library market really is...


Vladimir Bulaev said:


> VSL is not new to this market, [...] with a lot of experience


That's right. And I'm very happy and honored to work with such an awesome team!


----------



## Ben

I must say I'm pretty much disappointed by how this thread turned into a heated discussion.
Providing feedback is one thing, but attacking people is completely unacceptable, so please stop it.

Regarding legatos: I got your feedback: some would like to see an additional slurred legato.
No need to keep repeating this over and over in the next 5 pages of this thread...


----------



## richhickey

Ben said:


> Just to explain this phenomen: Cellos have quite a large fingerboard compared to violins and violas and also no frets like guitars do, so playing intervals larger then your fingers can physically do will result in a bit more sliding compared to violins and violas.
> This effect is also there with the Strings Pro, but because there are much more players compared to the 3 in Elite Strings, the average sound is more blurred and therefore the effect is less audible.
> 
> So nothing wrong with the strings/cellos, they behave exactly the way they should (-> represent the real sound as close as possible).


There is not one "real sound" or playing technique. It is a _choice_ which one you provide when you provide only one or two. I'll let your own product - VI Chamber Strings, which provides _4 different legatos_ plus performance trills (aka agile) and portamento, to demonstrate. People can use their own ears and knowledge of string playing to make up their own minds. It is exhausting trying to be objective around here.

VI Chamber Cellos (3) Legato:

View attachment VIChamberLegato.mp3


VI Chamber Cellos (3) Sul Legato:

View attachment VIChamberSulLegato.mp3


VI Chamber Strings (3) Slur Legato:

View attachment VIChamberSlurLegato.mp3


VI Chamber Strings (3) Zigane Legato:

View attachment VIChamberZiganeLegato.mp3


----------



## maestro2be

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> 🤔 you’re saying it is not soaring/smooth in this rendition?


I think he might be saying it does sound nice there, which proves they are choosing to do it the way they did it, library by library. That's my take on what he said but could be wrong lol. If you don't like it in Elite, it was still their choice to do it that way vs they could have easily done soaring if they wanted. I think that's what he's saying haha.

-Edit **it's a good idea to refresh your browser because people tend to post more threads while you're statically sitting there. He answered his own question but I was to slow to refresh and see that .**


----------



## molemac

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Powell updated his template 5 months after CSS release. 😏
> 
> Previous one only contained Spitfire string libraries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John Powell's Updated Template
> 
> 
> John Powell just posted a updated photo of his template in his FB page. Mainly Spitfire and Cinesamples with the addition of Berlin Brass. Pretty awesome template. Everyone's thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net


John Powell isn’t the only composer either. Eg have worked with Gregson Williams and he uses Lass amongst others . John Lunn ( downtown abbey )still uses vsl appassionato sordinos a lot . I used to use Css but now replaced with BBC and abbey rd for bigger stuff and none of us use any of them for commercial releases. So sorry, it’s not a one horse market.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

This legato discussion is boring and it's really sad that every VSL thread ends with this topic (or the dongle). VSL's legato is best in class (recording- and scripting-wise). People have to adapt their playing.

As @Jimmy Hellfire said, with CSS you have to adapt to this delay; with other libraries you also have to adapt to their "intended" playing styles. VSL doesn't have such a delay or an intended thing built in, which is good, though I appreciate the new legato variations (e.g. espressivo). In my opinion, VSL's legato can be sculpted into every legato the other libraries have. If you want it to be laggier like CSS, than you have to play it that way. So Simple. Learn - the - library.

---

I usually don't post snippets, but here is a short comparison between Hollywood Strings Violins and my Dimension Strings Violins setup (only 4 players!). Just the MIRx settings in MIR Pro Synchron Stage with reduced reverb length to around 1.1 sec, no additional processing or EQ.


----------



## RMH

View attachment STRINGS MINI SONG NO.1 Final.mp3

I'll play the song that I uploaded the other day as the main mic again. Each instrument has its own balance and the melody has been reinforced.

The more I play musical instruments, the more wonderful they are.
There are advantages and charms that only this instrument can play.

I can't say I'm good at writing songs, but I'm enjoying it enough.

Sooner or later, I'll play this song to compare all the microphones.

And I'm going to test the differences by processing the same song with my instruments.


----------



## holywilly

Ben said:


> That's right. And I'm very happy and honored to work with such an awesome team!


I can’t believe that I’ve been using VSL for more than a decade! I wish one day I’ll have opportunities to beta test the latest Synchron libraries.....well, just a wish.
I really enjoy Elite strings. And I’m actually writing trailer music using Elite and Synchron Strings Pro, brutal combination!


----------



## molemac

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> This legato discussion is boring and it's really sad that every VSL thread ends with this topic (or the dongle). VSL's legato is best in class (recording- and scripting-wise). People have to adapt their playing.
> 
> As @Jimmy Hellfire said, with CSS you have to adapt to this delay; with other libraries you also have to adapt to their "intended" playing styles. VSL doesn't have such a delay or an intended thing built in, which is good, though I appreciate the new legato variations (e.g. espressivo). In my opinion, VSL's legato can be sculpted into every legato the other libraries have. If you want it to be laggier like CSS, than you have to play it that way. So Simple. Learn - the - library.
> 
> ---
> 
> I usually don't post snippets, but here is a short comparison between Hollywood Strings Violins and my Dimension Strings Violins setup (only 4 players!). Just the MIRx settings in MIR Pro Synchron Stage with reduced reverb length to around 1.1 sec, no additional processing or EQ.



And this from the inventor of the Pixelpoet Lass legato trick, if anyone knows their sampled strings legatos, surely he is the man.


----------



## molemac

RMH said:


> View attachment STRINGS MINI SONG NO.1 Final.mp3
> 
> I'll play the song that I uploaded the other day as the main mic again. Each instrument has its own balance and the melody has been reinforced.
> 
> The more I play musical instruments, the more wonderful they are.
> There are advantages and charms that only this instrument can play.
> 
> I can't say I'm good at writing songs, but I'm enjoying it enough.
> 
> Sooner or later, I'll play this song to compare all the microphones.
> 
> And I'm going to test the differences by processing the same song with my instruments.


Nice going but you need to work on the high violins which sound panned too far to the left and a bit thin


----------



## RMH

molemac said:


> Nice going but you need to work on the high violins which sound panned too far to the left and a bit thin


Right. How can I control this?


----------



## molemac

RMH said:


> Right. How can I control this?


Which mikes are you using for the 1st violins and have you altered the panning or added any plugins ?


----------



## RMH

molemac said:


> Which mikes are you using for the 1st violins and have you altered the panning or added any plugins ?


1. I used the master assistant in Ozone.
2. Using Space 2, I gave you a separate reverb.
3. I didn't use the synchron room reverb.
4. Load the main microphone and didn't touch the fan or anything else.


----------



## RMH

II tested it and there is also a difference in the tone between SSpro and SC. I only brought the main microphone under the same conditions, but SE's Vln1 sound is a bit thin.


----------



## StillLife

From reading between the legato posts, I get the idea that this is a special library, I mean that the user experience is noticably different from other libraries. That is exactly the reason why I am considering a purchase of the full lib. Still, I'd like some advice from those who have it already.

A bit of background: I am a piano player and singer/songwriter, with a left fieldish orientation (think Peter Hammill, Sufjan Stevens, Elliot Smith, Andrew Bird, Fiona Apple). Making music is not my job, but it is Serious Fun to me. I have purchased a lot of Spitfire since landing on this forum four years ago. I like their libraries very much, especially for their textural sound. Still, I am always looking for the most playable string library, and that is not Spitfire's greatest asset, I think. Playable from a pianist's point of view, that is. I wonder if Elite Strings might be that library. It has a patch that loads in all instruments and all articulations at once (I hate having to load up orchestral instruments and/or articulations track by track, I want something like a Superior Drummer 3 for strings); the key switching system seems ingeneous and easy to work with, the shorts seem snappy with almost no latency, there are mixer presets in abundance and they really make a difference, it seems that you can get good sounds of it without using the modwheel (I dislike having to use the modwheel to get life into strings), the library seems to be very playable out of the box and tweakable to an insane extent at the same time, the library can sound wet as well as dry, the synchron player seems very user friendly, and, ah those detachés.

These are all assumptions of mine, as I have not yet played the library. Can anyone confirm these, or the library's (hopefully) great playability in general?


----------



## molemac

RMH said:


> II tested it and there is also a difference in the tone between SSpro and SC. I only brought the main microphone under the same conditions, but SE's Vln1 sound is a bit thin.


Interesting , I tried it too with just the main mikes and they are panned quite far over and sound a little thin up high. I have full and if you use the narrow preset for example the solo and mid mikes are more central and it gives a fuller sound.


----------



## molemac

StillLife said:


> From reading between the legato posts, I get the idea that this is a special library, I mean that the user experience is noticably different from other libraries. That is exactly the reason why I am considering a purchase of the full lib. Still, I'd like some advice from those who have it already.
> 
> A bit of background: I am a piano player and singer/songwriter, with a left fieldish orientation (think Peter Hammill, Sufjan Stevens, Elliot Smith, Andrew Bird, Fiona Apple). Making music is not my job, but it is Serious Fun to me. I have purchased a lot of Spitfire since landing on this forum four years ago. I like their libraries very much, especially for their textural sound. Still, I am always looking for the most playable string library, and that is not Spitfire's greatest asset, I think. Playable from a pianist's point of view, that is. I wonder if Elite Strings might be that library. It has a patch that loads in all instruments and all articulations at once (I hate having to load up orchestral instruments and/or articulations track by track, I want something like a Superior Drummer 3 for strings); the key switching system seems ingeneous and easy to work with, the shorts seem snappy with almost no latency, there are mixer presets in abundance and they really make a difference, it seems that you can get good sounds of it without using the modwheel (I dislike having to use the modwheel to get life into strings), the library seems to be very playable out of the box and tweakable to an insane extent at the same time, the library can sound wet as well as dry, the synchron player seems very user friendly, and, ah those detachés.
> 
> These are all assumptions of mine, as I have not yet played the library. Can anyone confirm these, or the library's (hopefully) great playability in general?


Have you watched the video a few pages back with the guy playing the tutti patch live ? I think that will answer your questions


----------



## RMH

molemac said:


> Interesting , I tried it too with just the main mikes and they are panned quite far over and sound a little thin up high. I have full and if you use the narrow preset for example the solo and mid mikes are more central and it gives a fuller sound.


I changed the master assistant song, but it got better. I need to continue my research. Thank you for your advice.


----------



## Ben

StillLife said:


> From reading between the legato posts, I get the idea that this is a special library, I mean that the user experience is noticably different from other libraries. That is exactly the reason why I am considering a purchase of the full lib. Still, I'd like some advice from those who have it already.
> 
> A bit of background: I am a piano player and singer/songwriter, with a left fieldish orientation (think Peter Hammill, Sufjan Stevens, Elliot Smith, Andrew Bird, Fiona Apple). Making music is not my job, but it is Serious Fun to me. I have purchased a lot of Spitfire since landing on this forum four years ago. I like their libraries very much, especially for their textural sound. Still, I am always looking for the most playable string library, and that is not Spitfire's greatest asset, I think. Playable from a pianist's point of view, that is. I wonder if Elite Strings might be that library. It has a patch that loads in all instruments and all articulations at once (I hate having to load up orchestral instruments and/or articulations track by track, I want something like a Superior Drummer 3 for strings); the key switching system seems ingeneous and easy to work with, the shorts seem snappy with almost no latency, there are mixer presets in abundance and they really make a difference, it seems that you can get good sounds of it without using the modwheel (I dislike having to use the modwheel to get life into strings), the library seems to be very playable out of the box and tweakable to an insane extent at the same time, the library can sound wet as well as dry, the synchron player seems very user friendly, and, ah those detachés.
> 
> These are all assumptions of mine, as I have not yet played the library. Can anyone confirm these, or the library's (hopefully) great playability in general?


I'm not a piano player at all, but from my experience with these strings I can only recommend following for the mentioned attributes:
- the Shorts are awesome, simple load and play. Use Bold for chords and Agile for runs.
- Use the Shorts -> Detache with soft attack for longer notes / chords.
- for long chords I would recommend to take a look at the Dynamics
- Long sustained notes -> Check out the Espressivo articulations

Bonus Tipps:
- the tremolos are great, but the measured tremolos are really fun to play!
- combine articulations like tremolos with a little trills dialed in for interesting textures.
- If you don't like using a mod-wheel, I recommend to check out a breath-controller, or a foot-pedal. You will get so much more out of this (and most other libraries).
- If you buy any library from our website you can return it within 14 days - so check it out yourself!


----------



## muziksculp

I suggested this https://vi-control.net/community/threads/vsl-synchron-elite-strings.108092/post-4810530 to @Ben on an earlier post on this thread. 

I think this would be a very good solution to the legato type/detail that is being discussed here. 

Interestingly, not much was commented about it, but rather I notice arguments about legato, which imho. is not constructive, or helpful to anyone. I wish we can be more realistic with the fact that a Pro developer, (VSL) will surely listen to what their customers, and future users request, and deliver these features, instead of wasting time complaining, and arguing about Legato features, in an endless loop fashion in many threads on VI-C.


----------



## StillLife

Ben said:


> I'm not a piano player at all, but from my experience with these strings I can only recommend following for the mentioned attributes:
> - the Shorts are awesome, simple load and play. Use Bold for chords and Agile for runs.
> - Use the Shorts -> Detache with soft attack for longer notes / chords.
> - for long chords I would recommend to take a look at the Dynamics
> - Long sustained notes -> Check out the Espressivo articulations
> 
> Bonus Tipps:
> - the tremolos are great, but the measured tremolos are really fun to play!
> - combine articulations like tremolos with a little trills dialed in for interesting textures.
> - If you don't like using a mod-wheel, I recommend to check out a breath-controller, or a foot-pedal. You will get so much more out of this (and most other libraries).
> - If you buy any library from our website you can return it within 14 days - so check it out yourself!


Thanks, Ben! Is it possible to combine articulations inside one instance of the synchron player?


----------



## StillLife

molemac said:


> Have you watched the video a few pages back with the guy playing the tutti patch live ? I think that will answer your questions


Yes, that video raised my interest considerably. Still curious of other people's opinions about the library's usefulness in my particular niche.


----------



## Ben

StillLife said:


> Thanks, Ben! Is it possible to combine articulations inside one instance of the synchron player?


Yes, by enabling parallel mode:





Dimension Tree View | VSL - Software Manuals







www.vsl.info





You can also easily copy and past slots in the player via the right-click menu. A click on the "+" symbol right from a slot will add an additional dimension.
So it is super easy to load the default preset, customize it to your taste (for example removing articulations you don't need when playing live) and save it as custom preset.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

I realize using words like "glaring problem" are probably to strong words but those are the only words i could find last night. Legatos aren't "that" bad of course.

So how do people adapt to these legato? Aside from using the molto vib. as mentioned earlier. They layer with other legato? Or they accept that they sound great but they're not as connected as could be? And drinks lots of whisky to get over it?  just kidding of course but i genuinely want to know.


----------



## Jack Weaver

Hey Ben,

Is there a way to have simultaneous articulations within Synchron Player? 
I know I can do it with Babylonwaves but I'd like to know how to set it up quickly with keyswitches inside the Player.
I looked for it in the online documentation but didn't find it 

Thanks.

.


----------



## Ben

Jack Weaver said:


> Hey Ben,
> 
> Is there a way to have simultaneous articulations within Synchron Player?
> I know I can do it with Babylonwaves but I'd like to know how to set it up quickly with keyswitches inside the Player.
> I looked for it in the online documentation but didn't find it


I'm not sure I get what you mean by simultaneous, but my guess would be that you like to have 2 or more articulations playing at the same time. For this use the parallel mode and set the "parallel mode" slot setting in the EDIT tab to "Mix" as described in the manual: https://www.vsl.info/manuals/synchron-player/dimension-tree-view#parallel-mode


----------



## Rubens Tubenchlak

Dear Ben, I have no doubt that Elite is the better sounding string library ever. VSL did a marvellous job, congrats and I will buy it! 

I liked the deca tree sound... Saying that, how the full library could be interesting for me? I am trying to approach here only the divisi situations as I already picked the mics I liked.


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

Piotrek K. said:


> No, I meant that in BBO they made soaring legato but in elite they did different kind of legato. By design and not because they can't do soaring legato.


Got it — misunderstood!

The section size might be prohibitive, but I may be able to get something pretty close to BBO. Interestingly, those transitions in the BBO are relatively loud, with a lot of previous note bleeding into the next note. A lot of Legato Blur CC on Elite Strings Molto Vib *might* emulate this if using one of the larger-sounding mixer presets Ben made.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> I realize using words like "glaring problem" are probably to strong words but those are the only words i could find last night. Legatos aren't "that" bad of course.
> 
> So how do people adapt to these legato? Aside from using the molto vib. as mentioned earlier. They layer with other legato? Or they accept that they sound great but they're not as connected as could be? And drinks lots of whisky to get over it?  just kidding of course but i genuinely want to know.


Are you referring to my post? I think DS sounded even better than HS. I don't use Synchron libraries, so I talk about the VI series, especially Dimension Strings as they are my go-to library.

With "adapt" I mean you have to "imitate" this laggier legato by adding delay to your playing. I don't know how to put it into words, it's just a learning process. Just listen to e.g. CSS and analyze how and when the second note comes in. 

For this exaggerated, laggier, longer transition do the following:

Hold the first note a bit longer than you would normally do (not meaning overlapping to the next note, with VSL you don't have to overlap legato notes)
Play the second note later than you would normally do (sing along the melody)
Add a swell with the modwheel between the notes and dig into the second note

So, actually it's a combination of modwheel and timing. Constantly wiggle the modwheel and sculpt the bow movement and pressure. With Dimension Strings it's easier, because you have four velocity layers in the legatos. 

This is how I would describe my playing. Hope this is helpful.


----------



## Ben

Rubens Tubenchlak said:


> Saying that, how the full library could be interesting for me? I am trying to approach here only the divisi situations as I already picked the mics I liked.


It's hard to give the only and true answer, as it depends on your use-case / music.
I love the sound of the ribbon mic, so this is one thing you would miss in the Standard. Also the second close mic is really nice to have for a more intimate and raw sound.
Also, besides these mics I really love the sound of the High-surround mic, it adds a lot of air and space to the sound, which is especially important for larger sections imo.

But the most important reason to get the Full Library: If you don't you will miss all of my mixer presets and make me sad!


----------



## Ben

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> (not meaning overlapping to the next note, with VSL you don't have to overlap legato notes)


I still recommend overlapping notes a little bit. It's easier to get the timing right this way.


Pixelpoet1985 said:


> With Dimension Strings it's easier, because you have four velocity layers in the legatos.


With Elite Strings you have 4 as well


----------



## Ben

Rubens Tubenchlak said:


> Stephen, did Ben shared presets here or those are already inside Elite?


I created half of the Full Library Signature mixer presets (06-11).


----------



## Rubens Tubenchlak

Ben said:


> It's hard to give the only and true answer, as it depends on your use-case / music.
> I love the sound of the ribbon mic, so this is one thing you would miss in the Standard. Also the second close mic is really nice to have for a more intimate and raw sound.
> Also, besides these mics I really love the sound of the High-surround mic, it adds a lot of air and space to the sound, which is especially important for larger sections imo.
> 
> But the most important reason to get the Full Library: If you don't you will miss all of my mixer presets and make me sad!


Sold! Case closed!


----------



## Rubens Tubenchlak

Ben said:


> I created half of the Full Library Signature mixer presets (06-11).


wish you could share with us presets for Synchron strings I as well...


----------



## Ben

Rubens Tubenchlak said:


> wish you could share with us presets for Synchron strings I as well...


I'll see what I can do


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Are you referring to my post? I think DS sounded even better than HS. I don't use Synchron libraries, so I talk about the VI series, especially Dimension Strings as they are my go-to library.
> 
> With "adapt" I mean you have to "imitate" this laggier legato by adding delay to your playing. I don't know how to put it into words, it's just a learning process. Just listen to e.g. CSS and analyze how and when the second note comes in.
> 
> For this exaggerated, laggier, longer transition do the following:
> 
> Hold the first note a bit longer than you would normally do (not meaning overlapping to the next note, with VSL you don't have to overlap legato notes)
> Play the second note later than you would normally do (sing along the melody)
> Add a swell with the modwheel between the notes and dig into the second note
> 
> So, actually it's a combination of modwheel and timing. Constantly wiggle the modwheel and sculpt the bow movement and pressure. With Dimension Strings it's easier, because you have four velocity layers in the legatos.
> 
> This is how I would describe my playing. Hope this is helpful.


Yea i was talking ES but thanks for trying. I guess i know enough tricks to handle this anyways. It's just a matter of deciding if a get it now that a realize I'm gonna have to fight it a little...


----------



## StillLife

Well, full library is downloading. Looking forward to trying it out! Tomorrow's the first day of my vacation, so...


----------



## Alex_music_product

Frederick said:


> Obvious answer: Dimension strings comes with a lot more articulations (e.g. open strings, sordino, sul tasto, etc) and you can build your own ensembles. Great for endless sculpting. The Elite Strings on the other hand is a true Synchron stage recording that also takes advantage of the insight that it matters what and how you let the players play during the recordings. It's a better fit as divisi strings to Synchron Strings Pro. It should be easier to program.
> 
> I have Dimension Strings myself, but I have already ordered the full library of the Elite Strings.


Hi Federick, how are you doing? I was wondering if you had the possibility to try both libraries (DS and ECS) what makes the most sense? I have the MIR pro Synchron stage already, but I am doubting which of these two libraries should fit better for divisie or even a more alive sound. I look forward to hearing from you. It will be appreciated!

thanks in advantage.

cheers Alex


----------



## Casiquire

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> This legato discussion is boring and it's really sad that every VSL thread ends with this topic (or the dongle). VSL's legato is best in class (recording- and scripting-wise). People have to adapt their playing.
> 
> As @Jimmy Hellfire said, with CSS you have to adapt to this delay; with other libraries you also have to adapt to their "intended" playing styles. VSL doesn't have such a delay or an intended thing built in, which is good, though I appreciate the new legato variations (e.g. espressivo). In my opinion, VSL's legato can be sculpted into every legato the other libraries have. If you want it to be laggier like CSS, than you have to play it that way. So Simple. Learn - the - library.
> 
> ---
> 
> I usually don't post snippets, but here is a short comparison between Hollywood Strings Violins and my Dimension Strings Violins setup (only 4 players!). Just the MIRx settings in MIR Pro Synchron Stage with reduced reverb length to around 1.1 sec, no additional processing or EQ.



This is eye opening and I've been using DS for years. I always just had it in my head that Hollywood had a better "sound" but DS allowed me to do more so that's why I use it more. I guess hearing the two side by side, i might not be missing out on sound either


----------



## ptram

Ben said:


> Regarding legatos: I got your feedback: some would like to see an additional slurred legato.


SSP too, SSP too! The slurred legato from SS1 is great, but not completely matching SSP in how dynamics respond. Re-editing it to make it another native patch of SSP would be great!

Paolo


----------



## Frederick

Alex_music_product said:


> Hi Federick, how are you doing? I was wondering if you had the possibility to try both libraries (DS and ECS) what makes the most sense? I have the MIR pro Synchron stage already, but I am doubting which of these two libraries should fit better for divisie or even a more alive sound. I look forward to hearing from you. It will be appreciated!
> 
> thanks in advantage.
> 
> cheers Alex


Hi Alex, I should start with making clear I'm just an amateur who just happens to have bought many of the pro libraries. There are plenty of other people in this thread that are light years ahead in skill level and experience. 

Having made that clear, from my point of view I would say the Elite strings sound the most alive to me. On the other hand the dimension strings are the one I would take with me if I had to go to a deserted island. The list of articulations is absolutely amazing and unique and therefore gives you options like force open strings or even one string, assemble your own section etc, that allows for realism you cannot achieve with other libraries. The downside is it's a lot more work and it's taking up more resources. If you're fine with the articulations in Elite (quite extensive as well) I feel Elite is probably your best choice as results out of the box are phenomenal. Myself I have only used it with Synchron Strings Pro and that seems to be a perfect combination. (You mention having MIR pro Synchron stage so my guess is you want to combine it with Synchron Strings Pro)

Maybe @Ben wants to chime in?


----------



## Ben

Frederick said:


> Hi Alex, I should start with making clear I'm just an amateur who just happens to have bought many of the pro libraries. There are plenty of other people in this thread that are light years ahead in skill level and experience.
> 
> Having made that clear, from my point of view I would say the Elite strings sound the most alive to me. On the other hand the dimension strings are the one I would take with me if I had to go to a deserted island. The list of articulations is absolutely amazing and unique and therefore gives you options like force open strings or even one string, assemble your own section etc, that allows for realism you cannot achieve with other libraries. The downside is it's a lot more work and it's taking up more resources. If you're fine with the articulations in Elite (quite extensive as well) I feel Elite is probably your best choice as results out of the box are phenomenal. Myself I have only used it with Synchron Strings Pro and that seems to be a perfect combination. (You mention having MIR pro Synchron stage so my guess is you want to combine it with Synchron Strings Pro)
> 
> Maybe @Ben wants to chime in?


I also really love the Dimension Strings, and I'll still use them for certain things, but out-of-the-box the Elite Strings are easier to use and you'll have less work with these. Also for live performances I would recommend to go for the Elite Strings.
But again, it highly depends on the music you are writing. The Dimension Strings are very versatile and can be used in almost all genres - and in some they will probably be the better choice compared to the Elite Strings.


----------



## RMH

Oh, hello composers.
I have a question. I use logic pro x.
How did you use Synchron series keyswitch?
Synchron keyswitch is multi switch.
I know there are articulations set, but is it possible to multi-switch?

And what about Cubase, too?


----------



## biomuse

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> So, actually it's a combination of modwheel and timing. Constantly wiggle the modwheel and sculpt the bow movement and pressure. With Dimension Strings it's easier, because you have four velocity layers in the legatos.


There is lot one can do with this kind of gestural CC wrangling, up to a point.

Downloaded Elite Pro today. I'm hoping to find there is indeed a way to get a good mid-speed, connected sound out of it. The precise (classical) legato sounds very good, and not unnatural at all. I'll play around with getting something more languorous out of it that isn't (or at least doesn't sound like) full portamento.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

RMH said:


> Oh, hello composers.
> I have a question. I use logic pro x.
> How did you use Synchron series keyswitch?
> Synchron keyswitch is multi switch.
> I know there are articulations set, but is it possible to multi-switch?
> 
> And what about Cubase, too?


Yes you can setup multi-output articulation maps in both Logic and Cubase.


----------



## RMH

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Yes you can setup multi-output articulation maps in both Logic and Cubase.


Oh?! Can you explain to me, please?


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

biomuse said:


> Downloaded Elite Pro today. I'm hoping to find there is indeed a way to get a good mid-speed, connected sound out of it. The precise (classical) legato sounds very good, and not unnatural at all. I'll play around with getting something more languorous out of it that isn't (or at least doesn't sound like) full portamento.


Now that we know this can be done from within the player like Ben mentioned earlier, it's shouldn't be a workflow killer like having to load and extra instrument to layer on top etc. This changes things imo. I think i hear this technique in some demos. But i might be wrong, but it seems to works well. It's a pretty busy arrangement so that might help to camouflage. Anyway, it will be interesting to hear on a more exposed melody and see if it's possible to more or less morph articulations to create the desired effect.

I wonder if it's possible to delay one articulation from within the player? I think this could help but that's probably not possible.


----------



## Saxer

RMH said:


> Oh?! Can you explain to me, please?




Here's a good tutorial how to set up articulation sets. Just make sure that you click the check box for "activate multiple outputs" in the Output tab. Then you can send multiple key switches by one trigger note.

But do yourself a favor: buy Babylonwaves articulation sets! Even if you edit them to make custom changes it saves a ton of time!


----------



## RMH

Saxer said:


> Here's a good tutorial how to set up articulation sets. Just make sure that you click the check box for "activate multiple outputs" in the Output tab. Then you can send multiple key switches by one trigger note.
> 
> But do yourself a favor: buy Babylonwaves articulation sets! Even if you edit them to make custom changes it saves a ton of time!



Thank you for being such a big help!


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

I call this one _Smoothie McSmootherton: an Elite Strings Adagio._

View attachment SmoothieMcSmootherton.mp3


One aspect that is highly satisfactory is the tone/balance when the violas and cellos have divisi parts. This is a piece probably better suited for a full contingent of strings and would sound pretty rad if layered up with Dimension Strings or BBO Zodiac.


----------



## StillLife

Is Elite Strings NKS-compatible?


----------



## molemac

Saxer said:


> Here's a good tutorial how to set up articulation sets. Just make sure that you click the check box for "activate multiple outputs" in the Output tab. Then you can send multiple key switches by one trigger note.
> 
> But do yourself a favor: buy Babylonwaves articulation sets! Even if you edit them to make custom changes it saves a ton of time!



+ one for Babylon and then get a streamdeck and you can set up multi action switches . I have made some for elite . For example one button will activate measured terms at 160 bpm which normally involves 3 keyswithes.


----------



## molemac

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> I call this one _Smoothie McSmootherton: an Elite Strings Adagio._
> 
> View attachment SmoothieMcSmootherton.mp3
> 
> 
> One aspect that is highly satisfactory is the tone/balance when the violas and cellos have divisi parts. This is a piece probably better suited for a full contingent of strings and would sound pretty rad if layered up with Dimension Strings or BBO Zodiac.


I found that too regarding the violas and cellos , high violins not so sure, but I have Tana (which I think is SSPro1st violins , so I am using that to layer and soften them Or Ds if I need a smaller size.


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

@molemac I have only played around with the tremolos in the violin divisi... sounds pretty authentic. At some point maybe I will dig in and try the second section of _Also sprach Zarathustra... _see what it sounds like.


----------



## Alex_music_product

Ben said:


> I also really love the Dimension Strings, and I'll still use them for certain things, but out-of-the-box the Elite Strings are easier to use and you'll have less work with these. Also for live performances I would recommend to go for the Elite Strings.
> But again, it highly depends on the music you are writing. The Dimension Strings are very versatile and can be used in almost all genres - and in some they will probably be the better choice compared to the Elite Strings.


Hi Ben,

Many thanks for your return. Just to be more concreet from my side. I will not be using it as an Alice tool. It will be for recording in home studio. At this moment I have SS1 + SSP, which I love. Definitely the SS1 the sound that this library has is just underrated (heavily). I believe that if you guys could be able to make some thick’s on the legatos. This will became the engine of a Lamborghini and the other libraries will be acting as a specific support only. But ok back to the topic.

- I use SS1 + SSP among many others;
- I have Synchrom MIR Pro (Synchrom stage);

Way of writing:

- Ex. 1st strings, I play the 1st strings path 1 time.

- Then I play the same melody 4 or 5/6 times again (new mid tracks). Because I want to bring the alive atmosphere of the assemble. For those new mid tracks I use solo instruments of other libraries in order to achieve what I want.

- This I do for the full strings instruments and in some cases for the brass too.

I understand you guys say that Elite Strings might be easier to use. But let’s forget that for a moment and let’s focus in what I want to achieve. Which is so realistic as possible.

the only question mark that I have regarding DS is, what is about phases issues (velocity, vibrato), when I use it with SS1/ SSP. Do you have an answer for that as well??

If Elite Strings still the way to go according with my target and way of working at this moment. Please tell, all and any kind of input is highly appreciated!!

@Frederick, many thanks bro for your honest feedback and good advise! 
Cheers Alex


----------



## molemac

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> @molemac I have only played around with the tremolos in the violin divisi... sounds pretty authentic. At some point maybe I will dig in and try the second section of _Also sprach Zarathustra... _see what it sounds like.


The divisi presets are great, instant feeling of realism.


----------



## Ben

StillLife said:


> Is Elite Strings NKS-compatible?


Not yet (no ETA).


----------



## StillLife

Ben said:


> Not yet (no ETA).


Thanks, pitty, but I can overcome it for a while.... Light guide works in Maschine though, when you load the Synchron Player as an external instrument.


----------



## StillLife

By the way, first impressions (considering sound and playability) are very, very good.


----------



## Ben

Alex_music_product said:


> - Ex. 1st strings, I play the 1st strings path 1 time.
> 
> - Then I play the same melody 4 or 5/6 times again (new mid tracks). Because I want to bring the alive atmosphere of the assemble. For those new mid tracks I use solo instruments of other libraries in order to achieve what I want.
> 
> - This I do for the full strings instruments and in some cases for the brass too.


This is what the Dimension Strings and Dimension Brass libraries were made for - so sounds like a perfect match for you.



Alex_music_product said:


> I understand you guys say that Elite Strings might be easier to use. But let’s forget that for a moment and let’s focus in what I want to achieve. Which is so realistic as possible.


It's impossible to give you the answer, it depends on your skill, music, expectations.
If you like Synchron Strings Pro and you love the sound of a smaller string section, you will definitly love the Elite Strings. And thanks two 2 solo mics you can also create multiple tracks (one with the mics excluding solo 1+2, one only containing solo 1, one containing only solo 2), theoretically - I have nto tried this myself yet.



Alex_music_product said:


> the only question mark that I have regarding DS is, what is about phases issues (velocity, vibrato), when I use it with SS1/ SSP. Do you have an answer for that as well??


I'm not aware of such issues. Every time I layered the Dimension Strings with a different library it worked perfectly. Keep in mind that you will not get separat solo players - there is still a little bleed there from the other string players, but you will not notice it unless used as exposed solo instrument.



Alex_music_product said:


> If Elite Strings still the way to go according with my target and way of working at this moment. Please tell, all and any kind of input is highly appreciated!!


Not an easy task  You seem to already be familiar with the working concept of the Dimension Strings, as you have emulated this by using different solo libraries - so I can highly recommend checking it out.

If you only plan to use Elite / DS for layering with other strign libraries, I would recommend to go for the Dimension Strings.
If you like to get a exposed smaller string section sound now and then - working with Elite Strings will be more fun and probably result in a better sound.


----------



## Trevor Meier

Trevor Meier said:


> I took a crack at transcribing the first 17 bars (MIDI attached). To my ears it's 5-part chamber (Vln1, 2, Vla, Vlc, Cb) with Vln1, Vla & Vlc playing in unison off the top. When the parts split at bar 3, I think there's something very unusual in that Vln1 plays *below* the Vla for a few bars, possibly for timbre?
> 
> Have a look and see if it gets you any closer. To make my life easier I transcribed in 6/8 @ 85bpm instead of 4/4 triplets (which I suspect is how the original score is marked).


@Stephen Limbaugh Did you get a chance to try out the library with this MIDI? How'd it turn out?


----------



## novaburst

Mike T said:


> I think you're an unpleasant turd and have you on ignore because you apparently take this whiney approach enough for me to have decided I don't need to see any more Jimmy Hellfire posts. In this case, I sadly couldn't help myself. It happens. Is that not-passive enough for you?


That is really bad of you and i think you should reverse this, while some times we can get on each others nerves i think we can be constrictive too, 

I also feel we can be misunderstood and can also say things at the heat of the moment but one thing that is crap is that forsaken ignore Butten that cuts off the community as if we dont matter, we think we are the only ones that should be herd when at the end of the day its the music that nits us together not the legato

so please reverse that stupid ignore button and just move on 

We are not always going to hear things we like and some times we are going to be the target but just be a man and get over it and be a man and dont use that stupid ignore button 

Bless


----------



## biomuse

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Now that we know this can be done from within the player like Ben mentioned earlier, it's shouldn't be a workflow killer like having to load and extra instrument to layer on top etc. This changes things imo. I think i hear this technique in some demos. But i might be wrong, but it seems to works well. It's a pretty busy arrangement so that might help to camouflage. Anyway, it will be interesting to hear on a more exposed melody and see if it's possible to more or less morph articulations to create the desired effect.
> 
> I wonder if it's possible to delay one articulation from within the player? I think this could help but that's probably not possible.


Would depend on whether Humanize delay factor feeds different delay amounts to each patch in the parallel split I guess. I’m thinking more along the lines of timestretching portamento.


----------



## CT

novaburst said:


> That is really bad of you and i think you should reverse this, while some times we can get on each others nerves i think we can be constrictive too,
> 
> I also feel we can be misunderstood and can also say things at the heat of the moment but one thing that is crap is that forsaken ignore Butten that cuts off the community as if we dont matter, we think we are the only ones that should be herd when at the end of the day its the music that nits us together not the legato
> 
> so please reverse that stupid ignore button and just move on
> 
> We are not always going to hear things we like and some times we are going to be the target but just be a man and get over it and be a man and dont use that stupid ignore button
> 
> Bless


Hi, no. Also please don't quote me anymore as I've had my fill of this thread.


----------



## Markus Kohlprath

Got it and I'm setting it up right now to make it workable with expression maps and the controllers I like to use. I'm still a bit surprised that I actually like them pretty much. 
Some first observations: the sound of first and second violins is very different and the second don't necessarily sound as seconds that often don't get as much love as the first in terms of careful editing/scripting/tuning whatever. They easily could also be used as first violins I think, judging just from noodling around. They sound much more warm and dark but not thinner or minor to the first.
The vibrato crossfade patches are more or less unusable unfortunately due to some heavy phasing that occurs. Its almost like a soundtoys phaser gets turned on suddenly. First I was seriously wondering what is wrong until I found out it were those patches. I did set up the different single vibrato patches such as that I can switch them with controller 21. Not the same as a crossfade but seems to work well enough.
There are a lot of variations of longs and all in all they are beautiful and useful although maybe not quite as charming as some from SCS. I think the two libraries complement each other in terms of that the weak points of one are the strong points of the other. Maybe even layering could be an option.
The already discussed legatos might be a bit of an issue in certain situations although a minor one I find. All in all useable. Exposed melodies are always challenging with samples in my experience.
The agile legato has some strange artifacts in the transitions which seem to be unsolvable according to the discussion at the vsl forum and should therefore only be used on very fast tempos. This has to be tested. 
What is also interesting are crossfades from normal longs into tremolos or harmonics. This is something I didn't see somewhere else until now.
The performance detaches seem to be very useful as well and one of my favorites is the pizzicato. It's very lively and has the right balance between human feeling and preciseness. To my ears at least.
Almost all articulations have normal and slow releases. These sound very nice and could really bring some deepness to the expression in slow passages I can imagine. At all the low dynamics are beautiful to my ears. They are the equivalent to spitfires flautandos somehow.
The different mixes seem to be very useful and there is A LOT to explore (extended version). 
The biggest drawback for me is the time it takes to set it up properly and sometimes I would wish vsl would just do what everybody else does like using velocity for accents, vibrato crossfade with a dedicated controller. Of course you can do all that by yourself but it takes hours, a lot of head scratching and try and error. I took the preset and modified it. Took me the whole afternoon just for violin 1.
And there is my most important question: Is it possible to import in a once created setup a different instrument or has it to be done-ugh- with every instrument again?


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Markus Kohlprath said:


> And there is my most important question: Is it possible to import in a once created setup a different instrument or has it to be done-ugh- with every instrument again?


You can actually right-click and copy the tree structure and paste the whole thing in a doc. file or something. Then you could search and replace the viola patch names with the correct cello naming conventions.

I've been doing a lot of that prior to switching to Studio One for my samples work (VSL made me do it!) and, well ... I'm not sure if it speeds up the process at all.


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

Trevor Meier said:


> @Stephen Limbaugh Did you get a chance to try out the library with this MIDI? How'd it turn out?


😬 totally slipped my mind! I do have it downloaded and am curious about this too. Wrapping up some other stuff and will dive in.


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

Markus Kohlprath said:


> Is it possible to import in a once created setup a different instrument or has it to be done-ugh- with every instrument again?


Yes!





Custom Preset Creation | VSL - Software Manuals







www.vsl.info






Also, did you listen to Smoothy McSmootherton above? That has the vibrato crossfade patches all over it.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Markus Kohlprath said:


> The vibrato crossfade patches are more or less unusable unfortunately due to some heavy phasing that occurs. Its almost like a soundtoys phaser gets turned on suddenly. First I was seriously wondering what is wrong until I found out it were those patches. I did set up the different single vibrato patches such as that I can switch them with controller 21. Not the same as a crossfade but seems to work well enough.


I don't own the library, but I noticed the same thing while listening to donbodin's walkthrough/review; and I had noticed this in Synchron Strings Pro earlier and some of the official demos, though to a lesser degree. This is something VSL should definitely pay attention to. Apart from this, this could be a wonderful library (I think and hope so).


----------



## StillLife

I watched the walkthrough of Race against fate, my o my, what a possibillities! Is there any slow tutorial out there, for us (vsl) beginners? How to implement divisi, use of different mixer presets etc?


----------



## Markus Kohlprath

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Yes!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Custom Preset Creation | VSL - Software Manuals
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vsl.info


Vsl obviously doesn't want its customers to get lazy. Simplicity isn't their thing. On the other hand the software works better and more reliable than anything in the market which is a big plus.


Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Also, did you listen to Smoothy McSmootherton above? That has the vibrato crossfade patches all over it.


It explains why it sounds a bit strange..... imo


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

Markus Kohlprath said:


> It explains why it sounds a bit strange..... imo


Expand on this! Strange how? 😁 (I wasn’t hearing phasing... but might have missed something.)


----------



## JonS

RMH said:


> It's for a short time, but thank you for responding.
> 
> As a user who already owns SYSpro, I was also curious about elite string, so I bought it a while ago to have a demo period. I wanted to take a closer look, but I have to finish this week at this point. I'll bring a proper song next week.
> 
> So I'm going to announce the results.
> 
> We removed all IR from the default default state and used Space2. That way, we can apply Reverb in the same situation.
> 
> #1 Elite Strings - Tutti XF patch, RoomRvrb remove.
> Elite String used the tutti MOD patch, with the exception of Reverb remaining intact.
> View attachment #1.mp3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please understand that I didn't pay attention to the details because I played and recorded it right away in order to compare only the sound in a hurry.
> 
> #2 SYSpro - Tutti Full gange XF, Rvrb remove
> View attachment #2.mp3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Strings pro is the same Tutti patch, in my personal opinion it's definitely symphonic compared to the elite. Of course, the scale is much thinner than the BBC and CSS, but the details are alive.


Elite sounds richer than Synchron Strings Pro, I am assuming this is because it has more velocity layers. I love how many velocity layers Synchron Strings I has and wish all the Synchron libraries contain that level of richness. Unfortunately, so many people complained about the size of Synchron Strings I that VSL overreacted and made Synchron Strings Pro have way too few velocity layers, which is the main problem with Synchron Strings Pro even though it sounds okay. I use Synchron Strings I way more than I use Synchron Strings Pro. I would have preferred Elite Strings had as many velocity layers as Synchron Strings I, but unfortunately it does not. Elite IMHO sounds much better than Synchron Strings Pro.


----------



## Markus Kohlprath

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Expand on this! Strange how? 😁 (I wasn’t hearing phasing... but might have missed something.)


It is difficult to identify when the whole ensemble plays since a natural kind of phasing is part of the string ensemble sound of course. But if you switch off the reverb play a single line and ride the xfade controller it is clearly audible. Especially with senza-molto. Since it obviously is a xfade problem it occurs not on all fader positions with same intensity. But if you go from senza to molto during one note it sounds like an added effect. So it depends maybe also on how you ride the controller.
With reverb, maybe even a modulated, chorusy, it gets masked but probably shines through somehow as something strange unidentifiable. I couldn't tell from just listening to the piece. And it might be also something the ears get accustomed to I suppose.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Markus Kohlprath said:


> It is difficult to identify when the whole ensemble plays since a natural kind of phasing is part of the string ensemble sound of course. But if you switch off the reverb play a single line and ride the xfade controller it is clearly audible. Especially with senza-molto. Since it obviously is a xfade problem it occurs not on all fader positions with same intensity. But if you go from senza to molto during one note it sounds like an added effect. So it depends maybe also on how you ride the controller.
> With reverb, maybe even a modulated, chorusy, it gets masked but probably shines through somehow as something strange unidentifiable. I couldn't tell from just listening to the piece. And it might be also something the ears get accustomed to I suppose.


Have a listen to donbodin‘s walkthrough (in the review section of the forum). It‘s nothing you get accustomed to, it‘s a bad phasey crossfade needing mending. Especially, as you said, on the senza XF molto preset.


----------



## molemac

Markus Kohlprath said:


> Got it and I'm setting it up right now to make it workable with expression maps and the controllers I like to use. I'm still a bit surprised that I actually like them pretty much.
> Some first observations: the sound of first and second violins is very different and the second don't necessarily sound as seconds that often don't get as much love as the first in terms of careful editing/scripting/tuning whatever. They easily could also be used as first violins I think, judging just from noodling around. They sound much more warm and dark but not thinner or minor to the first.
> The vibrato crossfade patches are more or less unusable unfortunately due to some heavy phasing that occurs. Its almost like a soundtoys phaser gets turned on suddenly. First I was seriously wondering what is wrong until I found out it were those patches. I did set up the different single vibrato patches such as that I can switch them with controller 21. Not the same as a crossfade but seems to work well enough.
> There are a lot of variations of longs and all in all they are beautiful and useful although maybe not quite as charming as some from SCS. I think the two libraries complement each other in terms of that the weak points of one are the strong points of the other. Maybe even layering could be an option.
> The already discussed legatos might be a bit of an issue in certain situations although a minor one I find. All in all useable. Exposed melodies are always challenging with samples in my experience.
> The agile legato has some strange artifacts in the transitions which seem to be unsolvable according to the discussion at the vsl forum and should therefore only be used on very fast tempos. This has to be tested.
> What is also interesting are crossfades from normal longs into tremolos or harmonics. This is something I didn't see somewhere else until now.
> The performance detaches seem to be very useful as well and one of my favorites is the pizzicato. It's very lively and has the right balance between human feeling and preciseness. To my ears at least.
> Almost all articulations have normal and slow releases. These sound very nice and could really bring some deepness to the expression in slow passages I can imagine. At all the low dynamics are beautiful to my ears. They are the equivalent to spitfires flautandos somehow.
> The different mixes seem to be very useful and there is A LOT to explore (extended version).
> The biggest drawback for me is the time it takes to set it up properly and sometimes I would wish vsl would just do what everybody else does like using velocity for accents, vibrato crossfade with a dedicated controller. Of course you can do all that by yourself but it takes hours, a lot of head scratching and try and error. I took the preset and modified it. Took me the whole afternoon just for violin 1.
> And there is my most important question: Is it possible to import in a once created setup a different instrument or has it to be done-ugh- with every instrument again?


very useful info thanks, I hadnt clocked the xf vib issue but it makes sense as you are, unless I am mistaken, effectively hearing the same players at once playing senza and molto . +1 also for the setup time. I am trying to make a streamdeck Elite profile with babylon expression maps (it's a lot of work especially as you have to change everything for the basses and cellos cos of the low high keyswitch thing.) Price you pay I guess for so many options. Don't suppose anyone has done a streamdeck for ELite yet and want to share ? It's pretty cool having buttons for such things as soft and hard attack etc and if you didnt have the labels ie just use a regular keyswitch it would take years to remember where everything is.


----------



## Markus Kohlprath

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Have a listen to donbodin‘s walkthrough (in the review section of the forum). It‘s nothing you get accustomed to, it‘s a bad phasey crossfade needing mending. Especially, as you said, on the senza XF molto preset.


You know I really want to stay diplomatic. And I'm no expert engineer so do not qualify for judging others perceptions and have been fooled by my ears often enough.


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

Ahh. Most of the xfades on _Smoothie McSmootherton_ are reg->molto->reg.


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

Got it. When I apply a band pass eq, I'm hearing phasing in the xfades between the various vibrato combinations in the *legato transitions*, throughout the dynamic range. Single notes, not as much. Most pronounced around CC59. cc @Ben


----------



## Saxer

For my taste fading from no vib to vib is always an unlucky combination. Layering a vibrato note with a non modulated one doesn't even sound good with syntheziser oscillators. It sounds like a dead and a vivid sound at the same time and never like a bit of vibrato. That's why some libraries have a "switch" between no vib and vib (Spitfire, CSS). Less problematic between normal and molto vib. Might be easier when using more different vib layers but I don't know which libraries have more than two vibrato layers beside no vib. Convincing fades from vib to no vib only works with artificial vibrato like SM or AM or Infinite.
I'd like to know if it's possible to make a three way switch/fade combi in the Synchron player: no vib switch to normal vib and fade from there to molto vib with one controller. Using key switches doesn't work while the note is playing.


----------



## Ben

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Got it. When I apply a band pass eq, I'm hearing phasing in the xfades between the various vibrato combinations in the *legato transitions*, throughout the dynamic range. Single notes, not as much. Most pronounced around CC59. cc @Ben


I'll check it out and see what I can do. Thanks for reporting.


----------



## Ben

Saxer said:


> For my taste fading from no vib to vib is always an unlucky combination. Layering a vibrato note with a non modulated one doesn't even sound good with syntheziser oscillators. It sounds like a dead and a vivid sound at the same time and never like a bit of vibrato. That's why some libraries have a "switch" between no vib and vib (Spitfire, CSS). Less problematic between normal and molto vib. Might be easier when using more different vib layers but I don't know which libraries have more than two vibrato layers beside no vib. Convincing fades from vib to no vib only works with artificial vibrato like SM or AM or Infinite.
> I'd like to know if it's possible to make a three way switch/fade combi in the Synchron player: no vib switch to normal vib and fade from there to molto vib with one controller. Using key switches doesn't work while the note is playing.


Yes, you can create such a switch, but it will only switch sounds at the beginning of the next note:










Disable parallel mode:





Now CC20 (default) will switch between these three options.


----------



## Ben

You can also try this:






Works only with two articulations, but you will hear mostly one of the two articulations, so the change is more drastic and sudden.


----------



## Markus Kohlprath

Saxer said:


> For my taste fading from no vib to vib is always an unlucky combination. Layering a vibrato note with a non modulated one doesn't even sound good with syntheziser oscillators. It sounds like a dead and a vivid sound at the same time and never like a bit of vibrato. That's why some libraries have a "switch" between no vib and vib (Spitfire, CSS). Less problematic between normal and molto vib. Might be easier when using more different vib layers but I don't know which libraries have more than two vibrato layers beside no vib. Convincing fades from vib to no vib only works with artificial vibrato like SM or AM or Infinite.
> I'd like to know if it's possible to make a three way switch/fade combi in the Synchron player: no vib switch to normal vib and fade from there to molto vib with one controller. Using key switches doesn't work while the note is playing.


I did exactly that. Very easy. If you fire up the preset and go to e.g. longs they are already set up in the second column by vibrato articulation then group them from senza to molto and delete the xfades. Then simply as a controller use whatever you like, in my case Cc21 coming from SF, and there you go. You can rename the column so the same controller isn't applied to other columns where you don't want it. Same applies to legato.


----------



## ptram

Saxer said:


> Using key switches doesn't work while the note is playing.


Since restarting a note with a very small gap would simulate bow change, maybe it's acceptable to simply retrigger a _non_vibrato-vibrato_ note with a _vibrato-molto_vibrato_ one.

Paolo


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

That‘s why I prefer a progressive vibrato patch. 😜


----------



## biomuse

Spitfire’s Sacconi quickly transitions mid-note between senza and vibrato using a technique that sounds most like the bipolar curve option Ben describes above. It works quite well, not perfectly, but you can avoid phasing by performing the transition quickly.


----------



## Alex_music_product

Ben said:


> This is what the Dimension Strings and Dimension Brass libraries were made for - so sounds like a perfect match for you.
> 
> 
> It's impossible to give you the answer, it depends on your skill, music, expectations.
> If you like Synchron Strings Pro and you love the sound of a smaller string section, you will definitly love the Elite Strings. And thanks two 2 solo mics you can also create multiple tracks (one with the mics excluding solo 1+2, one only containing solo 1, one containing only solo 2), theoretically - I have nto tried this myself yet.
> 
> 
> I'm not aware of such issues. Every time I layered the Dimension Strings with a different library it worked perfectly. Keep in mind that you will not get separat solo players - there is still a little bleed there from the other string players, but you will not notice it unless used as exposed solo instrument.
> 
> 
> Not an easy task  You seem to already be familiar with the working concept of the Dimension Strings, as you have emulated this by using different solo libraries - so I can highly recommend checking it out.
> 
> If you only plan to use Elite / DS for layering with other strign libraries, I would recommend to go for the Dimension Strings.
> If you like to get a exposed smaller string section sound now and then - working with Elite Strings will be more fun and probably result in a better sound.


Thanks for the explanation Ben!!
It sounds like I would love to have both!!  

Have a good weekend bro!

Cheers Alex


----------



## RMH

Composers! 
I was wondering if I could use an elite string as an accompaniment for orchestra songs, pop songs, and my piano performance. It's more detailed than SSpro, but the sound is smaller than you think, right? What genre of instrument did you usually buy for?


----------



## Soundbed

Wow, it looks like I missed some drama since visiting this thread on Thursday.

Perhaps I will start a new thread on the topic of, "how would you ask players to play THIS" and provide some audio examples of real musicians playing movie/game/tv scores recorded in the last few years.

EDIT it's here: https://vi-control.net/community/th...ask-string-players-to-play-this-audio.108858/

My hope would be to further develop my vocabulary for interacting with real, live string ensembles on how to describe this "long form" or "longest transitions" technique (shy of portamento), because to date most of my personal experience with live string players was not devoted to getting _that sound_, especially out of an ensemble.

Then, presumably, understanding a bit more about how composers and conductors and players discuss that "long form" transition and when it gets used — because it certainly gets used in the music I hear recorded today — I'll be able to better approach sample libraries and their means of mimicking or simulating the effect.

Because whether or not live players "usually" will sound a certain way (playing legato) without special instruction — or, whether to get a particular legato sound the players simply need some instruction — I'd like to be able to give my sample libraries that instruction (which has nothing to do with VSL or Elite strings per se).

Ultimately I'll need to know how to give live players the same instruction, too.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Soundbed said:


> Then, presumably, understanding a bit more about how composers and conductors and players discuss that "long form" transition and when it gets used — because it certainly gets used in the music I hear recorded today — I'll be able to better approach sample libraries and their means of mimicking or simulating the effect.


Maybe I'm wrong, but "long form" legato (what it's called on the CSS product page), is the best and most expensive legato, because you have dedicated recorded landing notes after the transition. It has nothing to do with this longer, portamento-y transition, in my opinion. If the term has to be applied differently to CSS, I'm not sure.

VSL had these "expensive" legatos from the very beginning, in three variations: legato, fast legato and performance trills. And this is one important factor to consider when comparing them to other libraries which only have sustain crossfades. I think the majority of libraries have this form, or even only bow change. Correct me if I'm wrong. Most of the time you have no information about this from the developers.

I don't know if Synchron libraries have a different approach, because it's not 100 % comparable to the VI libraries in sound. But I highly doubt that... Fortunately they brought the original "long form" legatos back to the SYNCHRON-ized woodwinds. First, they only had "leg-sus" legatos, which are crossfades.


----------



## biomuse

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Maybe I'm wrong, but "long form" legato (what it's called on the CSS product page), is the best and most expensive legato, because you have dedicated recorded landing notes after the transition. It has nothing to do with this longer, portamento-y transition, in my opinion. If the term has to be applied differently to CSS, I'm not sure.
> 
> VSL had these "expensive" legatos from the very beginning, in three variations: legato, fast legato and performance trills. And this is one important factor to consider when comparing them to other libraries which only have sustain crossfades. I think the majority of libraries have this form, or even only bow change. Correct me if I'm wrong. Most of the time you have no information about this from the developers.
> 
> I don't know if Synchron libraries have a different approach, because it's not 100 % comparable to the VI libraries in sound. But I highly doubt that... Fortunately they brought the original "long form" legatos back to the SYNCHRON-ized woodwinds. First, they only had "leg-sus" legatos, which are crossfades.


Pixel, before you pass judgement on "the discussion," it would be great if you could demo Elite. Because although you state that "VI legato can be fashioned into any other legato type" or something equivalent, I'm having a fair bit of trouble doing that with Elite, and I bought Pro. No, it's not the only flavor, but it's one flavor. Still experimenting with time stretching, and with mixing in Synchron Solo strings, and that "connected legato" ("long form," "lyrical," "schmaltzy," whatever one wants to call it) does not easily jump from Elite the way it does from the VI Solos. Classical legato sounds good and very plausible, but definition and separation of notes are the preferred effect there, which Elite delivers. Portamento sounds like portamento, if a little 'perfect.' Molto vibrato, slow attack might be a good path as well, trying it out.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

biomuse said:


> Pixel, before you pass judgement on "the discussion," it would be great if you could demo Elite. Because although you state that "VI legato can be fashioned into any other legato type" or something equivalent, I'm having a fair bit of trouble doing that with Elite, and I bought Pro. No, it's not the only flavor, but it's one flavor. Still experimenting with time stretching, and with mixing in Synchron Solo strings, and that "connected legato" ("long form," "lyrical," "schmaltzy," whatever one wants to call it) does not easily jump from Elite the way it does from the VI Solos. Classical legato sounds good and very plausible, but definition and separation of notes are the preferred effect there, which Elite delivers. Portamento sounds like portamento, if a little 'perfect.' Molto vibrato, slow attack might be a good path as well, trying it out.


If I had the money...  Sorry. The only Synchron library I own is Synchron Strings I. I tested some of the BBO libraries and Synchron Strings Pro, too, but I disliked all of them unfortunately. Because of 1) the legato and 2) the sound / mixer presets. 

If I'm talking about legato and my workflow, it's always the VI series, which, in my opinion, is unbeatable, even by VSL with their Synchron series.


----------



## Soundbed

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> For this exaggerated, laggier, longer transition do the following:
> 
> Hold the first note a bit longer than you would normally do (not meaning overlapping to the next note, with VSL you don't have to overlap legato notes)
> Play the second note later than you would normally do (sing along the melody)
> Add a swell with the modwheel between the notes and dig into the second note


For step #3, wouldn't you prefer NOT moving the mod wheel like that?

Honestly asking.

Partly because I'm not clear on whether you only wiggle the mod wheel some of the time, rarely, or for every. single. legato. transition. If it's for every one, that sounds like a potential waste of time, to me. 

Well... all of them sound like extra, potentially unnecessary time spent, actually, if a simple phrase arc _could_ accomplish the same result.

Again not trying to be a smart-a$$ only trying to learn how you approach things.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Soundbed said:


> For step #3, wouldn't you prefer NOT moving the mod wheel like that?
> 
> Honestly asking.
> 
> Partly because I'm not clear on whether you only wiggle the mod wheel some of the time, rarely, or for every. single. legato. transition. If it's for every one, that sounds like a potential waste of time, to me.
> 
> Well... all of them sound like extra, potentially unnecessary time spent, actually, if a simple phrase arc _could_ accomplish the same result.
> 
> Again not trying to be a smart-a$$ only trying to learn how you approach things.


Thanks, and I don't want to say that my approach is the holy grail. 

Good question, and I even wanted to make a video about this, because I think people don't understand what I mean. (Never done this before and I don't know how to film both me playing and also capture the sound from Logic. But different topic ...)

I don't know how to say this in English, "it's in me", like a switch turned on or off, developed over the years and I don't have to think about it anymore. So it wasn't easy to put into words.

I would say this swell is on every note, because it's also on every note in other libraries. The swell is more on the landing note and afterwards. Hard to explain... also one thing I learnt from a Mike Verta video on playing virtual instruments.



If I remember correctly Aaron Venture (Infinite Series) also wiggles the modwheel in his videos all the time. It's not only essential for brass, but for VSL, it's very important. Just my personal opinion.

VSL is great, because you don't have this swell all the time and you can decide where and when to put it. And this also allows VSL to play faster and even trills with the legato patch. If your legato patch has swells all the time you can't do this, especially if you only have legato-to-sustain crossfades instead of "long form" legato mentioned earlier.

Maybe I should make this video.


----------



## Soundbed

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Thanks, and I don't want to say that my approach is the holy grail.
> 
> Good question, and I even wanted to make a video about this, because I think people don't understand what I mean. (Never done this before and I don't know how to film both me playing and also capture the sound from Logic. But different topic ...)
> 
> I don't know how to say this in English, "it's in me", like a switch turned on or off, developed over the years and I don't have to think about it anymore. So it wasn't easy to put into words.
> 
> I would say this swell is on every note, because it's also on every note in other libraries. The swell is more on the landing note and afterwards. Hard to explain... also one thing I learnt from a Mike Verta video on playing virtual instruments.
> 
> 
> 
> If I remember correctly Aaron Venture (Infinite Series) also wiggles the modwheel in his videos all the time. It's not only essential for brass, but for VSL, it's very important. Just my personal opinion.
> 
> VSL is great, because you don't have this swell all the time and you can decide where and when to put it. And this also allows VSL to play faster and even trills with the legato patch. If your legato patch has swells all the time you can't do this, especially if you only have legato-to-sustain crossfades instead of "long form" legato mentioned earlier.
> 
> Maybe I should make this video.



Thanks, I think understand the basics of the technique (better now than a couple years ago) and I've seen it demonstrated in a few videos ... your statement "VSL is great, because you don't have this swell all the time and you can decide where and when to put it" helps me understand that you like to choose *when and how much* to use it.

I'll admit it has not come naturally to me yet, for strings, and Spitfire's demonstrations with the mod wheel plus expression give me some pause as well.

As a brass player (french horn) I feel much more comfortable using CCs for controlling my brass parts ... it feels much more natural for me.

But for strings I often yearn for a "read my mind" button some days. I simply want to indicate the phrase, and if I don't like it one way I want to be able to say, "more like this," or "more like that" to get the broad strokes in place before fine tuning every. single. transition. with CC automation.


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

@Soundbed Funny you mention CC velocity crossfade techniques differing from brass instruments to strings. As a fellow (former) brass player, studying how string players approach melodic lines has lead me to believe that the instruments require a different approach on the mod wheel.

Then there is the added issue of bowing. On a brass instrument, little things can be adjusted like the idea of a slur getting a little bump of air from the tongue (not just an embouchure and air change) so that the landing note is a bit cleaner -- that was fairly easy to emulate with samples. But bowing legato passages, which notes to group under one bow, is a bit more elusive if violin/viola/cello isn't your primary instrument. Most composition teachers recommend that composers not indicate bow markings in their scores because "the players know better." This is probably misguided as composers *should* know string instruments so intimately, that writing idiomatic string parts begets obvious bowings. Thus, rebows and direction changes would be much easier to program. At least, this is what I aspire to being able to do.

One shorter term potential solution for legato lines with Synchron Series string libraries may be making more frequent use of the sustain patches and their 4 different attack notes, and/or the detache located in the short notes tree, with its 2 different attacks. Each could still provide for smooth note-to-note transitions while giving the idea of realistic bow changes. That _may_ avoid excessive tinkering with the velocity crossfade CC.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Soundbed said:


> As a brass player (french horn) I feel much more comfortable using CCs for controlling my brass parts ... it feels much more natural for me.
> 
> But for strings I often yearn for a "read my mind" button some days. I simply want to indicate the phrase, and if I don't like it one way I want to be able to say, "more like this," or "more like that" to get the broad strokes in place before fine tuning every. single. transition. with CC automation.


Didn't know. There you have an advantage, for sure.

For me it's always the same with CC automation, no matter what instrument. But you have to tackle with the instruments first. With brass and woodwinds you shape the air flow, with strings you shape the bow movement and pressure. It's always in motion.

I think string sampling is very complex, because there is so much going on, every player plays differently (as I said in the other thread where you posted the Star Wars demo). Maybe the first chair plays on the string and molto, half of the the other desks play with vibrato, but more piano and with a softer attack, the other half more forte and with a more pronounced attack ... so many variations. But it's not only the different timbres, also the change in balance over time, which makes the ensemble sound smaller or bigger depending on the orchestration (divisi vs non-divisi or molto vs no-vibrato).


----------



## Ben

Soundbed said:


> For step #3, wouldn't you prefer NOT moving the mod wheel like that?
> 
> Honestly asking.
> 
> Partly because I'm not clear on whether you only wiggle the mod wheel some of the time, rarely, or for every. single. legato. transition. If it's for every one, that sounds like a potential waste of time, to me.
> 
> Well... all of them sound like extra, potentially unnecessary time spent, actually, if a simple phrase arc _could_ accomplish the same result.
> 
> Again not trying to be a smart-a$$ only trying to learn how you approach things.


The ultimate answer does not exist imo, so please excuse this long post 

There are different approaches regarding velocity crossfade - understand why and when they work and learn to use them. Here are a few things to consider:
1. Study the instruments: Take a closer look at a Solo violin / trumpet / horn / flute /etc concerto and listen carefully how the musician shapes the sound. Do the same for a string ensemble.
Read about the instruments and the techniques used - a good start: https://www.vsl.co.at/Academy
2. Check out how others use virtual instruments, the videos of Anne-Kathrin Dern, as well as the linked from Mike Verta are great starting points.

- For example, sometimes I use a breath controller for woodwinds and brass - if you know how to play one of these instruments you have a feeling how you should use it, and after some practice you will notice how much fun a virtual solo oboe can be 
- Of course, you can program everything with the mouse and draw the automation lines. After some practice you will remember these patterns and this makes you faster over time
- Use the mod-wheel - and please don't use it to shape every legato, in most cases you will do more harm then good to wiggle it during a transition. Like with the breath controller you have to develop a sense on how the player would play it and try to mimic this. You don't have to always shape each note - often less can be more. Avoid drastic changes. If you don't like the mod-wheel, maybe a foot-pedal will be better suited.

3. Less is often more: Not everything has to sound perfect - decide which instruments will stand out and take the time to polish these, especially exposed solo instruments. But in dense orchestrations you can get away with just using simple curves following the velocity / intensity for most instruments.
4. Make use of available dynamics / espressivo articulations: Learn what articulations you have and learn how to use them. Don't strictly follow the score - if the sffz articulation sounds good in the context, use it. don't decide to not use certain articulations because they are not required in the score.
4.5 You can also use dynamics + counter movement with Expression if you need a timbral build-up without volume increase.
5. Experiment! Do crazy stuff and experiment. It's more interesting, inspiring and you will have a lot of fun. Working with samples is like working with paint: You have colors / articulations, and with good technique _and _creativity you will get interesting and enjoyable results


----------



## Ben

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> @Soundbed Funny you mention CC velocity crossfade techniques differing from brass instruments to strings. As a fellow (former) brass player, studying how string players approach melodic lines has lead me to believe that the instruments require a different approach on the mod wheel.


Exactly my experience (former French horn player as well). So thanks to my experience with the brass instrument + fooling around with a trumpet a little bit I have a "natural instinct" when it comes to programming brass instruments. Woodwinds are a little different, but still easier to approach for me.
But strings are difficult because I never played a _bowed_ string instrument. But with studying these instruments and trying to mimic certain aspects of the sound I could improve my programming skills as well. Sitting in the 5th row in an orchestra is a great way to do this (and focus on the 1st seat of the string sections). But even during these times you can learn a lot by looking for violin/cello concerto.


----------



## Craig Allen

Thanks, all, for this discussion. I learned a lot! Looking forward to buying ES.


----------



## ptram

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> That‘s why I prefer a progressive vibrato patch. 😜


And progressive vibrato's transition can be made faster with the Wave Start Offset parameter (up to one second).

Paolo


----------



## Lee Blaske

Ben said:


> The ultimate answer does not exist imo, so please excuse this long post
> 
> There are different approaches regarding velocity crossfade - understand why and when they work and learn to use them. Here are a few things to consider:
> 1. Study the instruments: Take a closer look at a Solo violin / trumpet / horn / flute /etc concerto and listen carefully how the musician shapes the sound. Do the same for a string ensemble.
> Read about the instruments and the techniques used - a good start: https://www.vsl.co.at/Academy
> 2. Check out how others use virtual instruments, the videos of Anne-Kathrin Dern, as well as the linked from Mike Verta are great starting points.
> 
> - For example, sometimes I use a breath controller for woodwinds and brass - if you know how to play one of these instruments you have a feeling how you should use it, and after some practice you will notice how much fun a virtual solo oboe can be
> - Of course, you can program everything with the mouse and draw the automation lines. After some practice you will remember these patterns and this makes you faster over time
> - Use the mod-wheel - and please don't use it to shape every legato, in most cases you will do more harm then good to wiggle it during a transition. Like with the breath controller you have to develop a sense on how the player would play it and try to mimic this. You don't have to always shape each note - often less can be more. Avoid drastic changes. If you don't like the mod-wheel, maybe a foot-pedal will be better suited.
> 
> 3. Less is often more: Not everything has to sound perfect - decide which instruments will stand out and take the time to polish these, especially exposed solo instruments. But in dense orchestrations you can get away with just using simple curves following the velocity / intensity for most instruments.
> 4. Make use of available dynamics / espressivo articulations: Learn what articulations you have and learn how to use them. Don't strictly follow the score - if the sffz articulation sounds good in the context, use it. don't decide to not use certain articulations because they are not required in the score.
> 4.5 You can also use dynamics + counter movement with Expression if you need a timbral build-up without volume increase.
> 5. Experiment! Do crazy stuff and experiment. It's more interesting, inspiring and you will have a lot of fun. Working with samples is like working with paint: You have colors / articulations, and with good technique _and _creativity you will get interesting and enjoyable results


I agree that a breath controller is extremely useful. It reminds you that you need to take a breath here and there, too. For me, one thing that makes pretty much all sampled instruments sound phony is spending too much time playing samples at the brighter/louder range of the spectrum. It makes the finished product sound unnatural and brittle.


----------



## RMH

Ah! This instrument overlaps notes more than necessary, so the notes sound synthetic. It feels like pressing a continuous pedal. Compared to css and spitfire, overlapping sounds must be appropriate to become normal legato. It feels like it's lagging even if it's too short, but I'll have to experiment more.


----------



## borisb2

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Maybe I'm wrong, but "long form" legato (what it's called on the CSS product page), is the best and most expensive legato, because you have dedicated recorded landing notes after the transition.


Think thats a very important point in all these discussions. Especially with CSS not only the legato sounds well captured but what happens AFTER the transition has life in it. In contrast, in the case of MSS the notes after the legato transition usually sound static/lifeless (as I assume its just a sustained loop) and one has to work hard on the CCs to breath life back in it. Even in @soundbeds comparison to SCS (10 pages back) SCS sounds very alive/espressive to me.. more than Elite in my opinion, at least in that test.. does anybody know if SCS has dedicated recorded landing notes?


----------



## Ben

RMH said:


> Ah! This instrument overlaps notes more than necessary, so the notes sound synthetic. It feels like pressing a continuous pedal. Compared to css and spitfire, overlapping sounds must be appropriate to become normal legato. It feels like it's lagging even if it's too short, but I'll have to experiment more.


It doesn't, at least not in my experience. Have you turned up the Legato Blur setting?


----------



## RMH

Ben said:


> It doesn't, at least not in my experience. Have you turned up the Legato Blur setting?


Default set!
Blur values are not adjusted. Can the expression vary depending on the value?


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

RMH said:


> Default set!
> Blur values are not adjusted. Can the expression vary depending on the value?



Those are the longs, not the legatos. 😉 Go to key switch "D" and then mess with the legato blur values.


----------



## RMH

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Those are the longs, not the legatos. 😉 Go to key switch "D" and then mess with the legato blur!



Wow! What the hell am I doing? Thank you!! lol

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## tcb

RMH said:


> Wow! What did I do? Thank you!! lol
> 
> 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


1990s legato🤣🤣


----------



## nilblo

RMH said:


> Hello! Everyone!
> I compose the Short demo!
> I don't use Synchron IR.
> How about that?
> View attachment Elite Strings Short Demo.mp3


Very nice, You obviously know what you´re doing!


----------



## stargazer

@Ben
Is it possible to edit the legato transitions for the perf leg agile (or other patches)?
Lower the volume at the least?
There’s some transitions that sticks out in a not so very flattering way.
(G5 to F#5 for example. No big problem in a run, but problematic for exposed melodies in that area.)

Is this something you will fix in an update?


----------



## Ben

stargazer said:


> No big problem in a run, but problematic for exposed melodies in that area.)


In this case I highly recommend to use the regular legato for this section. Fast legato is designed to be used for really fast runs.

It's not possible to change the volume of the transitions only.


----------



## biomuse

Worked with Elite for the past few days. Like it. Keeping it.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

biomuse said:


> Worked with Elite for the past few days. Like it. Keeping it.


So you're getting along with the legatos? So i guess it's not perfect but the good outweigh the bad more then enough to keep it? Did you try to layer the portamento and how did that turn out if you don't mind?


----------



## molemac

biomuse said:


> Worked with Elite for the past few days. Like it. Keeping it.


Same


----------



## biomuse

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> So you're getting along with the legatos? So i guess it's not perfect but the good outweigh the bad more then enough to keep it? Did you try to layer the portamento and how did that turn out if you don't mind?


I mostly just needed to learn my way around Synchron Player - I‘d been VI Pro exclusively up to this point (I literally “unboxed” synchronized version of Solo Strings for use with this library earlier).

Layering the portamento doesn’t really work well, but it’s not actually needed for most things. Time compressing legato as a keyswitched layer can work nicely for what it does - the only issue being that you have to do it with at most one or two mics at a time as it tanks the CPUs on my MP - will probably be less of an issue if and when Synchron player goes M1 native.

For truly goopy sub-portamento flow, it is a nice bonus to have the Solo Strings sul patch around to layer - using that library (or, presumably, Dimension Strings) with Elite is made a ton easier by VI’s standardization of keyswitching across libraries - but it’s not a requirement by any means. Need to use your ears to mix either of them to a plausible unity, but you need to use your ears for mixing, period, and it does work if you want to do that IMO.

I would still like to see an addition to this library at some point in the form of an overtly slurred non-portamento articulation or two and some additional non-standard techniques and articulations (sul, slurred, sul pont. sul tasto, FX) - that would be an entirely world-beating package - but with a touch of ingenuity one can definitely get by without it in light of the overall sound and capabilities. It’s good kit.


----------



## StillLife

I am still undecided. Really like the sound and the player, but also wondering if the synchronized solo strings might be a better fit even. Biomuse, you mentioned that solo strings could add to Elite, but what does Elite add to Solo strings (except: more strings). May be a stupid question, I am an amateur in all.things orchestral...


----------



## biomuse

StillLife said:


> I am still undecided. Really like the sound and the player, but also wondering if the synchronized solo strings might be a better fit even. Biomuse, you mentioned that solo strings could add to Elite, but what does Elite add to Solo strings (except: more strings). May be a stupid question, I am an amateur in all.things orchestral...


If you like a relatively intimate sound but don't mind adding more players, Elite will add that to a solo ensemble without turning it into a large symphonic wash. I'd also say it adds some realism in that combining independent but compatible libraries nearly always does that.

OTOH, if you're truly dedicated to a solo ensemble sound, I'd examine VI Solos and all the other solo options on the market as well, and not restrict yourself to the idea of Synchronized Solo Strings alone.


----------



## StillLife

Thanks, good advice. I actually own a solo strings library ( Spitfire's), which I like for its sound, but less for its playability and its player. I think the Synchron player trumps Kontakt in many ways.


----------



## BasariStudios

Can anyone shed some light on Runs and Repetitions in Elite?
As in what patches people are using for this stuff?
Thanks


----------



## ptram

I don't know if this has already been done (sorry, not yet gone through the whole thread!), but I did a mockup of the Morricone demo with Synchronized Dimension Strings and Solo Strings. Different programmers, and no sordine, but maybe it can help comparing the two libraries someway.






Morricone's Deborah's Theme (VSL Dimension Strings)


Hi, With the release of their Elite Strings, VSL released a demo in a genre that is not typical of them, as much as it isn't for me. I had to try myself on it, while also checking what Dimension Strings can do in the same domain. I like DS, because of their versatility. I'm curious to see how...




vi-control.net





Paolo


----------



## StillLife

Well, went to work with it this afternoon, in an atypical way: in Maschine, and using mostly the divisi mics. Sprinkled some Spitfire evo's on top, and this is what I got (sorry, no runs - it's a slow piece). Bear in mind: I am a willing amateur, interested in using strings in his music, but struggling how to make them sound realistic. Then again, might be interesting (for prospective buyers) to hear what you can get when you just sit behind a keyboard and play with it.
Always open to tips!


----------



## Ben

BasariStudios said:


> Can anyone shed some light on Runs and Repetitions in Elite?
> As in what patches people are using for this stuff?
> Thanks


Depending on what sound you need, I suggest to try these three and choose what sounds best:
- Shorts -> Agile
- Agile Legato
- Agile Performance Detache


----------



## BasariStudios

Ben said:


> Depending on what sound you need, I suggest to try these three and choose what sounds best:
> - Shorts -> Agile
> - Agile Legato
> - Agile Performance Detache


Thanks Ben, will do that right now actually...


----------



## Lee Blaske

StillLife said:


> I am still undecided. Really like the sound and the player, but also wondering if the synchronized solo strings might be a better fit even. Biomuse, you mentioned that solo strings could add to Elite, but what does Elite add to Solo strings (except: more strings). May be a stupid question, I am an amateur in all.things orchestral...


I have both products. Unless you specifically need solo strings, also keep in mind that Elite is a new product, recorded at Synchron stage, using everything the VSL folks have learned over the years. It's totally new technology, and it sounds wonderful. The original solo strings library (before being "Synchronized") came out quite awhile ago. VSL really has improved these old libraries with the new "Synchronized" versions, but there's nothing like starting with a clean sheet of paper and using all of the tricks, knowledge, new technology, and new space they have today.


----------



## StillLife

Lee Blaske said:


> I have both products. Unless you specifically need solo strings, also keep in mind that Elite is a new product, recorded at Synchron stage, using everything the VSL folks have learned over the years. It's totally new technology, and it sounds wonderful. The original solo strings library (before being "Synchronized") came out quite awhile ago. VSL really has improved these old libraries with the new "Synchronized" versions, but there's nothing like starting with a clean sheet of paper and using all of the tricks, knowledge, new technology, and new space they have today.


Thanks, yes that is certainly something that I will take under consideration. A Synchron Solo Strings library: that would be great! Don't know how long the wait will be for something like that, though.


----------



## molemac

molemac said:


> Same





StillLife said:


> Well, went to work with it this afternoon, in an atypical way: in Maschine, and using mostly the divisi mics. Sprinkled some Spitfire evo's on top, and this is what I got (sorry, no runs - it's a slow piece). Bear in mind: I am a willing amateur, interested in using strings in his music, but struggling how to make them sound realistic. Then again, might be interesting (for prospective buyers) to hear what you can get when you just sit behind a keyboard and play with it.
> Always open to tips!


Atypical indeed


----------



## StillLife

molemac said:


> Atypical indeed


The tune or the Maschine?


----------



## Hadrondrift

Here is my attempt to interpret Samuel Barber's "Adagio for Strings" op. 11 with the Synchron Elite Strings (Standard Version).

View attachment Barber_Adagio_op11_VSL_Elite_std.mp3


----------



## Jack Weaver

Hadrondrift said:


> Here is my attempt to interpret Samuel Barber's "Adagio for Strings" op. 11 with the Synchron Elite Strings (Standard Version).


Rather happily surprised overall. Nice mic choices and good mix balances - very few distracting characteristics. I might question a few attack choices in the hi violins here and there, but great job. 

I'm already a happy owner of Elite full. The library has a lot to offer. 

.


----------



## StillLife

Lee Blaske said:


> I have both products. Unless you specifically need solo strings, also keep in mind that Elite is a new product, recorded at Synchron stage, using everything the VSL folks have learned over the years. It's totally new technology, and it sounds wonderful. The original solo strings library (before being "Synchronized") came out quite awhile ago. VSL really has improved these old libraries with the new "Synchronized" versions, but there's nothing like starting with a clean sheet of paper and using all of the tricks, knowledge, new technology, and new space they have today.


I researched the solo strings a bit further, to compare with Elite, and what I found does confuse me a bit. I know Elite is the newer, more technically advanced library, but Solo Strings does seem to have (a lot?) more articulations (sul tasto / ponticello also) AND some neat tricks (multiple shorts, scales, harsh) that Elite is missing. So what exactly are the technical advances of Elite over Solo? Maybe Elite is more playable out of the box?


----------



## stargazer

@Ben 
Is there some way to control the Round Robins in the Synchron Player?
Resetting, excluding etc


----------



## Ben

stargazer said:


> @Ben
> Is there some way to control the Round Robins in the Synchron Player?
> Resetting, excluding etc


To my knowledge there isn't.


----------



## stargazer

Thanks Ben,
This would be an appreciated feature in a coming update.
Resetting the RR sequence by controller or KS, excluding specific RRs, or even selecting a certain RR.
Lots of Kontakt libraries, the SINE Player and also the Vienna Instruments Pro (Toggle Repetition On/Off) support this.


----------



## Ben

stargazer said:


> Thanks Ben,
> This would be an appreciated feature in a coming update.
> Resetting the RR sequence by controller or KS, excluding specific RRs, or even selecting a certain RR.
> Lots of Kontakt libraries, the SINE Player and also the Vienna Instruments Pro (Toggle Repetition On/Off) support this.


I'm not sure this can be done as easy as it was with the VI Pro Player, and if it even would make sense.
The Synchron Player features a lot of advanced features, including advanced round-robins / repetitions algorithms.


----------



## holywilly

@Ben 
When I read 6+4 variations(round robin) in the instrument manual, does that mean there are 10 RR for that articulations?


----------



## Ben

holywilly said:


> @Ben
> When I read 6+4 variations(round robin) in the instrument manual, does that mean there are 10 RR for that articulations?


Can you please share a link / or screenshot, so I get an idea of the context?


----------



## holywilly

Ben said:


> Can you please share a link / or screenshot, so I get an idea of the context?


----------



## stargazer

Ben said:


> I'm not sure this can be done as easy as it was with the VI Pro Player, and if it even would make sense.
> The Synchron Player features a lot of advanced features, including advanced round-robins / repetitions algorithms.


Thanks Ben!
It would make sense to me.
I worked on an arrangement the other day where I really would have appreciated some more control over the RRs (Synchron Strings).


----------



## Ben

stargazer said:


> Thanks Ben!
> It would make sense to me.
> I worked on an arrangement the other day where I really would have appreciated some more control over the RRs (Synchron Strings).


"Make sense" in a technical way


----------



## muziksculp




----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

StillLife said:


> I researched the solo strings a bit further, to compare with Elite, and what I found does confuse me a bit. I know Elite is the newer, more technically advanced library, but Solo Strings does seem to have (a lot?) more articulations (sul tasto / ponticello also) AND some neat tricks (multiple shorts, scales, harsh) that Elite is missing. So what exactly are the technical advances of Elite over Solo? Maybe Elite is more playable out of the box?


I wouldn't focus too much on the numbers of articulation if i were you. Overall, ES is a much smarter investment than solo strings. I guess i could get into an explanation as to why that is like some have already alluded to but it's obvious to me. That's unless all you want to do is quartets?..


----------



## StillLife

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> I wouldn't focus too much on the numbers of articulation if i were you. Overall, ES is a much smarter investment than solo strings. I guess i could get into an explanation as to why that is like some have already alluded to but it's obvious to me. That's unless all you want to do is quartets?..


I would certainly also like to do quartets! And duo's! Not into mockups, though, I only use these libraries for my own music.
Elite strings is great, no doubt about it. The combination Elite + Solo would be ideal for me, I think. Alas, a bit too much money for me, at the moment. I think I'll buy Elite now and wait for a good sale on Solo (or the release of Synchron Solo).


----------



## Michael Antrum

The great thing about VSL is that there is bound to be a 30% off sale sooner or later, and IIRC Synchronized Solo Strings hasn't been on sale since the intro price, so hopefully you won't have too long to wait....


----------



## StillLife

Michael Antrum said:


> The great thing about VSL is that there is bound to be a 30% off sale sooner or later, and IIRC Synchronized Solo Strings hasn't been on sale since the intro price, so hopefully you won't have too long to wait....


Yes, I am hoping for that! Though, in other treads I found out that I just missed their march sale on strings (including solo for 20% off). I stumbled upon Elite just when that sale had ended... Still 20% is not the biggest sale, better to wait for 30% indeed. Just hope it will be sooner than later!


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

StillLife said:


> I would certainly also like to do quartets! And duo's! Not into mockups, though, I only use these libraries for my own music.
> Elite strings is great, no doubt about it. The combination Elite + Solo would be ideal for me, I think. Alas, a bit too much money for me, at the moment. I think I'll buy Elite now and wait for a good sale on Solo (or the release of Synchron Solo).


I think a much better addition to ES and a better investment would be Dimension Strings Syncron edition. As a rule, i would try to avoid what was recorded in the silent stage. There's a reason they record in a live room now. You can never really bring back the acoustics in a recording that is very dry to begin with. You can try with impulses but it's just not the same. Exception to this rule would be Dimension Strings, all their WW and perhaps some solo brass instr. like the cornet and others maybe. Best to ask around. If you absolutely want solo strings, i suggest you look into Best Service Emotional Violins, Cello and Viola. There's also Bohemian Violin and the newer Cremona Quartet by Native Instruments. I think they've surpased VSL for solo strings which were recorded a long time ago in the silent stage. I mean they're not crap and they're very detailed but they would not be my 1st choice in 2021. Good luck!

edited: forgot to mention Appasionnata Strings as an exception.


----------



## StillLife

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> I think a much better addition to ES and a better investment would be Dimension Strings Syncron edition. As a rule, i would try to avoid what was recorded in the silent stage. There's a reason they record in a live room now. You can never really bring back the acoustics in a recording that is very dry to begin with. You can try with impulses but it's just not the same. Exception to this rule would be Dimension Strings, all their WW and perhaps some solo brass instr. like the cornet and others maybe. Best to ask around. If you absolutely want solo strings, i suggest you look into Best Service Emotional Violins, Cello and Viola. There's also Bohemian Violin and the newer Cremona Quartet by Native Instruments. I think they've surpased VSL for solo strings which were recorded a long time ago in the silent stage. I mean they're not crap and they're very detailed but they would not be my 1st choice in 2021. Good luck!


Thanks, but as far as I know, there is no Synchron Dimension strings? Only Synhron-ized, just as the Solo strings are? At their product page I see only Synchron Strings 1, Synchron Strings Pro, Elite, the piano's and Percussion 1 and 2 as true Synchron libraries. Am I missing something?


----------



## jamwerks

Hopefully next they'll expand on the Zodiac size string ensembles into a full blown library!


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

StillLife said:


> Thanks, but as far as I know, there is no Synchron Dimension strings? Only Synchronized, just as the Solo strings are? At their product page I see only Synchron Strings 1, Synchron Strings Pro, Elite, the piano's and Percussion 1 and 2 as true Synchron libraries. Am I missing something?


Yes i meant Syncronized Dimension Strings. They might also work for quartets btw but I'm not sure.


----------



## Ben

holywilly said:


> @Ben
> When I read 6+4 variations(round robin) in the instrument manual, does that mean there are 10 RR for that articulations?


Got the info: The first number is the number variations for slow repetitions, the second one for fast repetitions.


----------



## Slazz

Hello everyone from Italy, I'm new here on the forum.

Here my first test with Elite strings.
What do you say about it? Any advice? As a preset mix I put ambience room mixes for everyone. I am not very convinced of some legatos and detaches yet.
Thanks
View attachment First test Elite Strings.mp3


----------



## StillLife

Slazz said:


> Hello everyone from Italy, I'm new here on the forum.
> 
> Here my first test with Elite strings.
> What do you say about it? Any advice? As a preset mix I put ambience room mixes for everyone. I am not very convinced of some legatos and detaches yet.
> Thanks
> View attachment First test Elite Strings.mp3


I like it! Sounds pretty convincingly realistic to my ears. I am not a classical composer, but most of your listeners won't be...
Which DAW did you use?


----------



## Slazz

io uso Studio one


----------



## StillLife

Slazz said:


> io uso Studio one


Making use of the Sound Variations function?


----------



## Slazz

si molto comodo!


----------



## RMH

Slazz said:


> Hello everyone from Italy, I'm new here on the forum.
> 
> Here my first test with Elite strings.
> What do you say about it? Any advice? As a preset mix I put ambience room mixes for everyone. I am not very convinced of some legatos and detaches yet.
> Thanks
> View attachment First test Elite Strings.mp3


Wonderful!!


----------



## Slazz

RMH said:


> Meraviglioso !!


Grazie!!


----------



## Slazz

Any suggestions to make the legato more realistic? @Ben?


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh

Slazz said:


> Any suggestions to make the legato more realistic? @Ben?



On some of the runs have you tried swapping in some of the _Legato Agile_ articulations? Sometimes switching the middle notes, or the last note of a run to _Agile_ can make it more realistic. But, do _not_ use it on quarter notes, half notes, whole notes. 👍🏻

Also, the fermata at 2:04 -- try using in a little CC22 (Attack) so that it has a sound that is less accent on the front of the note, but more accent in the the middle of it.


----------



## Slazz

Yes, when I use the agile Legato as at 00:35 I use it for the whole phrase without changing articulation. I'll try
thank you


----------



## marco berco

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> I think a much better addition to ES and a better investment would be Dimension Strings Syncron edition. As a rule, i would try to avoid what was recorded in the silent stage. There's a reason they record in a live room now. You can never really bring back the acoustics in a recording that is very dry to begin with. You can try with impulses but it's just not the same. Exception to this rule would be Dimension Strings, all their WW and perhaps some solo brass instr. like the cornet and others maybe. Best to ask around. If you absolutely want solo strings, i suggest you look into Best Service Emotional Violins, Cello and Viola. There's also Bohemian Violin and the newer Cremona Quartet by Native Instruments. I think they've surpased VSL for solo strings which were recorded a long time ago in the silent stage. I mean they're not crap and they're very detailed but they would not be my 1st choice in 2021. Good luck!
> 
> edited: forgot to mention Appasionnata Strings as an exception.


Indeed you can't go wrong with the Dimension strings, I use them to beef up and give more definition to the Synchron Strings I and Pro.


----------



## GdT

I just completed my first track using Elite Strings and Dimension Strings in combination, and separatly in places. As recommned earlier in this thread. It gave a lot of scope for colouration and variety. I used some of the Elite custom mixer presets - these gave a nice character to the sound to suite the topic. The track is one of a suite of tracks that I hope to release as an suite of pieces and an album later in the year.
I think I might well use this combination of strings more in the future.
Many thanks to VSL for a great product.


----------



## muziksculp

Here is a nice walkthrough posted of *Synchron Elite Stirngs*


----------



## muziksculp




----------



## biomuse

Time's been tight but I did want to post this before the sale ends.

One of the worries about Elite - in my opinion, founded - is that although the sound is fantastic and it covers a ton of ground, it's a bit underprovisioned with regard to getting a highly connected, (in some parlance, "slurred") legato sound.

Turns out there's no need to worry - there's a workaround and, while it definitely has to be classified as a workaround, it's a bit more than that in that it actually allows a finer sculpting of intention than I think I've ever seen in a non-physically modeled string library.

My hack:

- Turn off Legato Blur, or at least turn it down to single digits (like, 4). Makes no sense to me that it's any higher by default, unless you want to plonk live and are looking for convenience. It defeats realism IMO.

- Go to Edit tab and turn Attack all the way down to -2 or close to it, to taste (regards to @Pixelpoet1985). Lower strings need less of this than do higher. I'm still not clear on what it does precisely; it may eat into the sample a bit, but it sounds great on legato patches with good mod wheel technique.

- Load a portamento patch - you won't be making portamento lines with it, though.
Synchron player handles retriggered notes very gracefully - and if you retrigger a porta transition soon after it begins, it cuts to a stable destination note. You can sculpt slurred legato transitions by placing short notes where you want the transition to begin. Length of this very short note will correspond to the amount of slur, whereas putting some distance between the destination note and your short note is reminiscent of increasing the underslide gesture. Use your DAW's pencil tool and draw them in. With a little practice you'll be doing this quickly, and the feel of how it will sound will become clear. Looks like this:








The example I attached uses mostly portamento patches exactly this way.

Legato police: I summon thee. Reevaluate?


The other cool thing about this is that it suggests a clear development path to getting slurred legato patches into this library without a ton of additional work - internal retriggering of a portamento-based sample pool modulated by, for example, velocity, with crossfades and timing optimized by ear, would do nicely.


----------



## PaulK

Thank you @biomuse for sharing your hack! Your technique for turning portamento patches into slurred legato works with other Synchron string libraries also. It also works with the Vienna Instruments Pro player and the legacy VI string libraries.

I've been having fun experimenting with the length of the short note to vary the length of the slide. Lowering the velocity of the short note to reduce the volume of the slide relative to the main note is also something that is fun to work with.

In the past I've tried using the time stretch function in VI Pro and Synchron player to get this effect, but your approach seems like a better way to go. Thanks again for sharing this tip.


----------



## Casiquire

biomuse said:


> Time's been tight but I did want to post this before the sale ends.
> 
> One of the worries about Elite - in my opinion, founded - is that although the sound is fantastic and it covers a ton of ground, it's a bit underprovisioned with regard to getting a highly connected, (in some parlance, "slurred") legato sound.
> 
> Turns out there's no need to worry - there's a workaround and, while it definitely has to be classified as a workaround, it's a bit more than that in that it actually allows a finer sculpting of intention than I think I've ever seen in a non-physically modeled string library.
> 
> My hack:
> 
> - Turn off Legato Blur, or at least turn it down to single digits (like, 4). Makes no sense to me that it's any higher by default, unless you want to plonk live and are looking for convenience. It defeats realism IMO.
> 
> - Go to Edit tab and turn Attack all the way down to -2 or close to it, to taste (regards to @Pixelpoet1985). Lower strings need less of this than do higher. I'm still not clear on what it does precisely; it may eat into the sample a bit, but it sounds great on legato patches with good mod wheel technique.
> 
> - Load a portamento patch - you won't be making portamento lines with it, though.
> Synchron player handles retriggered notes very gracefully - and if you retrigger a porta transition soon after it begins, it cuts to a stable destination note. You can sculpt slurred legato transitions by placing short notes where you want the transition to begin. Length of this very short note will correspond to the amount of slur, whereas putting some distance between the destination note and your short note is reminiscent of increasing the underslide gesture. Use your DAW's pencil tool and draw them in. With a little practice you'll be doing this quickly, and the feel of how it will sound will become clear. Looks like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nearly all of the demo tracks and isolated example I attached are portamento patches used exactly this way.
> 
> Legato police: I summon thee. Reevaluate?
> 
> 
> The other cool thing about this is that it suggests a clear development path to getting slurred legato patches into this library without a ton of additional work - internal retriggering of a portamento-based sample pool modulated by, for example, velocity, with crossfades and timing optimized by ear, would do nicely.


I'm going to have to try this with Dimension!


----------



## muziksculp

Hi @biomuse,

Thanks for the tip. 

Here is a video showing it in action. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp 

View attachment VSL Elite Strings Portamento Trick v2.mp4


----------



## Rich4747

That's a great tip and shows again how the synchron player is able to shape and mold a performance


----------



## Jack Weaver

I've had Elite for a couple of weeks now and have had some time here and there to investigate it. There are hundreds of ways to get different sounds with it. So in my opinion there is a learning process with this library. That could be offputting to some. I understand that. One of my best composer friends asked me about it and I told him that his tight schedule might preclude the time to get to know it properly and suggested he not purchase it. Personally, I rather fancy it.

Here are three very short pieces *(each sounding completely different sonically)*:


1. Here I played the keyboard live and simply dragged the MIDI files to 3 Elite instrument tracks. Notes provided by some German guy named Wagner. Custom Divisi mic settings with only built-in Synchron reverb. No other fx or EQ.
- Vln1 Div2
- Vln2 Div1
- Vla Div2

2. A more produced sound with the same mic settings as the above but with occasional doublings. Some reverb with VSL MIRacle (not MIR) with a Synchron Stage preset and Gulfoss strapped on the output bus. To a large extent, I personally view Elite with all its fanciful articulations as* a more textural library.* So I used a lot of the more creative articulations here.
-Vln1 Div1
-Vln1 Div2
- Octave Vlns
-Vln2 Div1
-Vln2 Div2
-Vla Div1
-VC Div2
-DB

3. Layering w/ Synchron Strings Pro. Full string section excerpt from John Williams’ 1986 Liberty Fanfare - for the rededication of the Statue of Liberty.
In the original piece, this excerpt fits tightly with some brilliant brass and woodwind parts. Maybe when VSL comes out with their Synchron Brass I'd like to do a complete mockup of this piece.

.


----------



## Rich4747

Jack Weaver said:


> I've had Elite for a couple of weeks now and have had some time here and there to investigate it. There are hundreds of ways to get different sounds with it. So in my opinion there is a learning process with this library. That could be offputting to some. I understand that. One of my best composer friends asked me about it and I told him that his tight schedule might preclude the time to get to know it properly and suggested he not purchase it. Personally, I rather fancy it.
> 
> Here are three very short pieces *(each sounding completely different sonically)*:
> 
> 
> 1. Here I played the keyboard live and simply dragged the MIDI files to 3 Elite instrument tracks. Notes provided by some German guy named Wagner. Custom Divisi mic settings with only built-in Synchron reverb. No other fx or EQ.
> - Vln1 Div2
> - Vln2 Div1
> - Vla Div2
> 
> 2. A more produced sound with the same mic settings as the above but with occasional doublings. Some reverb with VSL MIRacle (not MIR) with a Synchron Stage preset and Gulfoss strapped on the output bus. To a large extent, I personally view Elite with all its fanciful articulations as* a more textural library.* So I used a lot of the more creative articulations here.
> -Vln1 Div1
> -Vln1 Div2
> - Octave Vlns
> -Vln2 Div1
> -Vln2 Div2
> -Vla Div1
> -VC Div2
> -DB
> 
> 3. Layering w/ Synchron Strings Pro. Full string section excerpt from John Williams’ 1986 Liberty Fanfare - for the rededication of the Statue of Liberty.
> In the original piece, this excerpt fits tightly with some brilliant brass and woodwind parts. Maybe when VSL comes out with their Synchron Brass I'd like to do a complete mockup of this piece.
> 
> .


Thanks for posting these examples. really nice


----------



## Ben

A quick reminder: The intro sale ends today!





SYNCHRON ELITE STRINGS - Vienna Symphonic Library


Synchron Elite Strings provide a harmonious ensemble of 22 strings (6 1st violins, 5 2nd violins, 4 violas, 4 cellos, and 3 double basses) featuring superb performers from our Synchron Stage Orchestra.




www.vsl.co.at


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Any more opinions of Synchron Strings Pro owners on how Elite integrates into their music?


----------



## Petrucci

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Any more opinions of Synchron Strings Pro owners on how Elite integrates into their music?


I've got myself Elite Strings not long ago so it's too quick to judje but I would say if you need something more "Intimate" to add to SSPro or even layer for more expression it can work nicely! All in all it's very dedicated library and I'm glad I got it!


----------



## Rich4747

I am not sure what's all going on under the hood but so far Elite is the most musical and playable strings library I have.


----------



## Toecutter

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Any more opinions of Synchron Strings Pro owners on how Elite integrates into their music?


Most of my work is very exposed writing, to give you an idea the last brief I got had a bunch of temp tracks from this album 

It's soaring stuff and the strings are always in the front, nowhere to hide. The performance has to be PERFECT. Not saying dead fake midi perfect but perfect as in a "professional" standard that the Japanese fellas look for. "It's a trap!" yep you tell me, not an easy gig and I kinda suck but they still haven't figured it out yet XD My budget usually allows me to hire a couple badass musicians (soloists) and the rest has to be augmented with samples. I can't deal with intonation problems, bumpy transitions, noises in every other sample etc issues that imo devs are too lazy to fix and get a free pass because now everyone assumes sloppy recordings\programming add character or realism. You ask any conductor if he strives for sloppy takes and he'll throw you a baton! XD *I think you add realism with phrasing, dynamics and good programming*. In order to achieve that, imo, you need a variety of samples of pro musicians doing their thing, captured by the best engineers in the best studios and gear, with a level of care and passion that I'm yet to find in any library. But I digress 

I always had the impression that Vienna libraries suffered from the side effects of being *too *perfect (dull too clinic overkill perfect). The Elite announcement grabbed my attention:

View attachment elite.mp4


Superb performers from our Synchron Stage Orchestra
Coherent performances, authentic in every nuance
Extremely versatile and flexible
From intimate to powerful expressions
Perfectly mixed with production-ready presets
Like dude... come on... don't promise stuff only to break my heart! I asked Ben about the return policy and decided to buy it and worst case scenario they refund me. What's to lose? Awesome company I'll tell you that 

So yea I got Elite strings as a result of an impulse buy, it's my first "serious" VSL library after all those years. I still have no idea what I'm doing, there are so many controllers but they nailed the sound and performance. Holy shit the players delivered! *Demos don't do justice *to how expressive this thing is! I think it's the first Vienna library to capture "performances" instead of static samples. I may be wrong tho, I haven't paid much attention until now.

Due to the nature of the recordings and mic selection, it seems easy to blend Elite strings with other libraries (I got MIR for that too). I'm still experimenting but they seem to sit very well on top of CSS. I'm using CSS for the "girth" and Elite for the detail. Soaring Strings was my go to library for those exposed lines but Elite is taking its place, not even fair to compare the two because Elite is much more comprehensive... and much more expensive compared to the price I paid for SS: $129 lol

It still does not have THE sound I'm obsessively looking for in order to be used as my main workhorse but Vienna nailed everything else. If you need pristine recordings and amazing expressive performances, give it a shot!

Still intrigued by Sonokinetic, Tokyo Strings, Nashville expansion, Abbey modular and a few others but yea I'm pretty happy with Elite strings so far. The sound thing could be my lack of experience with Vienna, so who knows, I'll report back if things change.


----------



## heisenberg

Just downloaded and installed Elite Strings. Super quick run through. with a few instruments and using MIR Pro with the Gateshead Sage HallTwo as the space. I was really worried about the longs (articulations). Lots of examples I have heard over the past number of weeks were pretty scary to my ears. But here none of what I am banging out sounds bad. No synthy crap. What is really surprising is the ease at which you can sculpt the vibrato in subtle ways. I do not have buyers remorse at all. Well done VSL on what seems on my first blush to be an exceptional chamber strings library.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Ended up caving and buying this last minute (full version). Thank you VSL for your refund policy - makes it a "no risk" purchase. Will be extensively diving into it over the next two weeks. Was hard to resist in the end given how much I like Synchron Strings Pro.

I wonder how VSL handles “exchanges” if I end up only liking the standard mics?


----------



## Toecutter

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I wonder how VSL handles “exchanges” if I end up only liking the standard mics?


That's something I would also like to know since I'm eyeing SSP out. @Ben could you chime in? Additionally, are there plans for a spring sale this year?


----------



## Ben

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I wonder how VSL handles “exchanges” if I end up only liking the standard mics?


I'm not sure how this is handled - you can contact my colleagues from sale: [email protected]



Toecutter said:


> are there plans for a spring sale this year?


We run different sales each month 
And it looks like it's still christmas - we just released an expansion for BBO: Capricorn, for free


----------



## Toecutter

Ben said:


> We run different sales each month
> And it looks like it's still christmas - we just released an expansion for BBO: Capricorn, for free


Now you are just spoiling us


----------



## holywilly

Maybe Zodiac expansion sometimes this year, with matching articulations to SSP and Elite, that will be super awesome!


----------



## AndyP

When I realized that Elite would only cost me 30€ more than the Intro price if I choose the Synchron Strings Bundle (because I have the rest) I postponed it for a bit.

So I can wait relaxed what comes the next few weeks on the market and relicense Elite at any time.


----------



## biomuse

heisenberg said:


> Just downloaded and installed Elite Strings. Super quick run through. with a few instruments and using MIR Pro with the Gateshead Sage HallTwo as the space. I was really worried about the longs (articulations). Lots of examples I have heard over the past number of weeks were pretty scary to my ears. But here none of what I am banging out sounds bad. No synthy crap. What is really surprising is the ease at which you can sculpt the vibrato in subtle ways. I do not have buyers remorse at all. Well done VSL on what seems on my first blush to be an exceptional chamber strings library.


^This. There have been some hiccups IMO in the way the library is presented, but it’s outstanding.

There seem to be two general approaches these days in string libraries, one where it’s expected that you, yourself, want to contour the expressivity of individual notes and phrases, and one where that idea has been abandoned to some degree in favor of “performance” built into the samples. This library sort of passes itself off as the latter in its marketing - and borrows some very useful aspects of it in the appendage of attacks and releases - but once you use it you see that it’s really the former, but a much more capable version of that. For those accustomed to, or who prefer, heavy shaping with CCs, it has a very smooth and easy feel, but if you’re expecting too much par-baked expression it can definitely sound dead in your hands.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

biomuse said:


> ^This. There have been some hiccups IMO in the way the library is presented, but it’s outstanding.
> 
> There seem to be two general approaches these days in string libraries, one where it’s expected that you, yourself, want to contour the expressivity of individual notes and phrases, and one where that idea has been abandoned to some degree in favor of “performance” built into the samples. This library sort of passes itself off as the latter in its marketing - and borrows some very useful aspects of it in the appendage of attacks and releases - but once you use it you see that it’s really the former, but a much more capable version of that. For those accustomed to, or who prefer, heavy shaping with CCs, it has a very smooth and easy feel, but if you’re expecting too much par-baked expression it can definitely sound dead in your hands.


That is good to hear, thanks. And thanks for your valuable input in this thread.


----------



## Casiquire

biomuse said:


> ^This. There have been some hiccups IMO in the way the library is presented, but it’s outstanding.
> 
> There seem to be two general approaches these days in string libraries, one where it’s expected that you, yourself, want to contour the expressivity of individual notes and phrases, and one where that idea has been abandoned to some degree in favor of “performance” built into the samples. This library sort of passes itself off as the latter in its marketing - and borrows some very useful aspects of it in the appendage of attacks and releases - but once you use it you see that it’s really the former, but a much more capable version of that. For those accustomed to, or who prefer, heavy shaping with CCs, it has a very smooth and easy feel, but if you’re expecting too much par-baked expression it can definitely sound dead in your hands.


That is VERY good to know and makes a ton of sense! Thanks so much for the input


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

For those that have the full library, what are some of your favorite mix presets? I'm comparing it right now with Spitfire Chamber Strings (which does have a really nice tone to it). Elite Strings sounds a little less warm / full in comparison (but this is with the default Ambience preset).


----------



## StillLife

Concilliant sounds pretty warm to me, as do the surround to stereo presets, but there are so many presets (all really affect the sound!) and then there is so much sculpting one can do oneself that I did not had the time to try out every possibility.
If you want Air, I think only Chamber Strings delivers, but if you want versatility: Elite wins hands down. Very deep library.
Still: trust your own ears, of course. The above is what MY ears tell me.


----------



## Petrucci

I like Surround To Stereo Wide for Elite strings. Also keep in mind that usually almost all the mics are EQed in Synchron Player which might be not for everybody's taste.


----------



## StillLife

Petrucci said:


> I like Surround To Stereo Wide for Elite strings. Also keep in mind that usually almost all the mics are EQed in Synchron Player which might be not for everybody's taste.


Yes, that is another example of the depth of this library. You can adjust the EQ of each mic.


----------



## Ben

There are also descriptions available for all mixer presets, and here and there a few hints what scenario/mood these emphezise:





Synchron Elite Strings | VSL - Instruments







www.vsl.info




But of course these are just hints to provide some guidance, there is a lot more that can be done with these


----------



## Dietz

Petrucci said:


> I like Surround To Stereo Wide for Elite strings.


Personally I consider this to be "the" setup at SSV. All my "SYNCHRONized" presets refer to it, too.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

StillLife said:


> If you want Air, I think only Chamber Strings delivers, but if you want versatility: Elite wins hands down. Very deep library.
> Still: trust your own ears, of course. The above is what MY ears tell me.


I agree with this (though SCS also has a wealth of articulations - but Elite definitely has some unique ones and seems more tonally flexible). I think for me though, given the libraries I already have (including SSP, which has a very similar tone to Elite, and SCS and the increasingly wonderful MSS where you can use individual divisi sections for a smaller sound), currently I am not finding enough differentiation with Elite to keep it most likely, especially for the Full library, which is quite pricey. The editing and programming is really fantastic though and if I didn't have some of my other libraries already, it would be an easy call to buy Elite.


----------



## StillLife

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I agree with this (though SCS also has a wealth of articulations - but Elite definitely has some unique ones and seems more tonally flexible). I think for me though, given the libraries I already have (including SSP, which has a very similar tone to Elite, and SCS and the increasingly wonderful MSS where you can use individual divisi sections for a smaller sound), currently I am not finding enough differentiation with Elite to keep it most likely, especially for the Full library, which is quite pricey. The editing and programming is really fantastic though and if I didn't have some of my other libraries already, it would be an easy call to buy Elite.


I understand completely. I wish Elite had come out years ago, would have saved me a lot of money.


----------



## Soundbed

Has anyone posted a comparison with only the ribbon mics? I only got the regular edition. It would be interesting to hear a short excerpt with no eq and no effects and just each mic from the pro version (for the excerpt).


----------



## ptram

I don't remember if during this discussion someone has tried this. I don't have Elite Strings, but with other VSL libraries I've seen that slowing down the attack a little, together with a high legato blur value, can make legato smoother and feeling "slower". Maybe it also works with Elite Strings.

As usual with VSL libraries, just leaving the attack and legato blur fader at a fixed value will probably not work. You have to adjust them note by note, to sculpt the line.

Paolo


----------



## Ben

ptram said:


> As usual with VSL libraries, just leaving the attack and legato blur fader at a fixed value will probably not work. You have to adjust them note by note, to sculpt the line.


Imo sculpting with such detail is not necassary with this library or the Synchron Strings Pro (except for very special cases). You can do a lot by dialing all these parameters if you know what you are doing, but in many cases I encounter the results are worse then simply not touching these dials at all (especially the attack slider)...

My experience with this library so far: Choose a mixer preset that inspires you and matches the required sound, choose the right articulation, and start playing (some mod-wheel movement might be necassary, and maybe some minor Expression adjustments after performance).

Personally with the Elite Strings I like to keep the legato blur between 5-20.


----------



## Petrucci

I'm doing second piece with Elite Strings and I never changed anything, works good for me. Although I really do many takes and then choose the best one, sometimes editing CCs afterwards.


----------



## Toecutter

Petrucci said:


> I'm doing second piece with Elite Strings and I never changed anything, works good for me. Although I really do many takes and then choose the best one, sometimes editing CCs afterwards.


Though this playlist is for the Synchron Strings Pro, it applies to Elite Strings... I learned a lot from this playlist, you will unleash the true power of ES


----------



## Petrucci

Toecutter said:


> Though this playlist is for the Synchron Strings Pro, it applies to Elite Strings... I learned a lot from this playlist, you will unleash the true power of ES



Yeah, I watched those - outstanding music with awesome programming. The amount of keyswitching there is astonishing..!


----------



## ptram

Ben said:


> Imo sculpting with such detail is not necassary with this library or the Synchron Strings Pro (except for very special cases)


Ben, how do you deal with different attacks? Do you switch between the Very Soft, Soft, Normal and Marcato options?

I would agree these are a viable replacement to the old practice of changing MIDI values. The same applies with release.

Paolo


----------



## Petrucci

ptram said:


> Ben, how do you deal with different attacks? Do you switch between the Very Soft, Soft, Normal and Marcato options?
> 
> I would agree these are a viable replacement to the old practice of changing MIDI values. The same applies with release.
> 
> Paolo



Yeah, I like this soft release thing - it's easier to sculpt the endings of slow mellow phrases) different attacks are also very useful!


----------



## Ben

ptram said:


> Ben, how do you deal with different attacks? Do you switch between the Very Soft, Soft, Normal and Marcato options?


I mostly use the normal attack variant, only if I have the feeling something else would be better fitting I try the other options (for example soft string chords will most probably sound better with the soft attack variant)



Petrucci said:


> Yeah, I like this soft release thing - it's easier to sculpt the endings of slow mellow phrases)


Exactly, I mostly use the soft release variant as well.
Keep in mind that it will only trigger at the end of a phrase for performance transitions (legato, portamento, perf. detache), but trigger for each note if used with the sustain patch!


----------



## Jack Weaver

Ben said:


> I mostly use the normal attack variant, only if I have the feeling something else would be better fitting I try the other options (for example soft string chords will most probably sound better with the soft attack variant)
> 
> 
> Exactly, I mostly use the soft release variant as well.
> Keep in mind that it will only trigger at the end of a phrase for performance transitions (legato, portamento, perf. detache), but trigger for each note if used with the sustain patch!


Yeah, I did not know. Thanks.

.


----------



## Slazz

Hi everyone, here is another test with Elite Strings.
To recreate the slur legate I used the portamento technique.


----------



## muziksculp

Slazz said:


> Hi everyone, here is another test with Elite Strings.
> To recreate the slur legate I used the portamento technique.



Sounds very good.

So are you key-switching to the portamento when you need the slured-leg. ? or are you layering it with the normal legato ? I couldn't see much how you have it setup in the video. 

Thanks


----------



## RMH

Slazz said:


> Hi everyone, here is another test with Elite Strings.
> To recreate the slur legate I used the portamento technique.



Nice work!
I'm a little sad about the legato of Vln1, which appears in the middle.


----------



## RMH

I loaded in a synchronized player on vst3..... Sound variations work, but the playback does not work. What did I do wrong?


----------



## Slazz

I used this technique.






VSL Synchron Elite Strings?


Hello everyone from Italy, I'm new here on the forum. Here my first test with Elite strings. What do you say about it? Any advice? As a preset mix I put ambience room mixes for everyone. I am not very convinced of some legatos and detaches yet. Thanks Wonderful!!




vi-control.net


----------



## muziksculp

Slazz said:


> I used this technique.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VSL Synchron Elite Strings?
> 
> 
> Hello everyone from Italy, I'm new here on the forum. Here my first test with Elite strings. What do you say about it? Any advice? As a preset mix I put ambience room mixes for everyone. I am not very convinced of some legatos and detaches yet. Thanks Wonderful!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net


Thanks. 

LOL... I even made a video showing how this works on that thread, and now forgot about this hack.


----------



## biomuse

Slazz said:


> I used this technique.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VSL Synchron Elite Strings?
> 
> 
> Hello everyone from Italy, I'm new here on the forum. Here my first test with Elite strings. What do you say about it? Any advice? As a preset mix I put ambience room mixes for everyone. I am not very convinced of some legatos and detaches yet. Thanks Wonderful!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net


Sensitively written and impactfully realized.

As well, your piece is the best argument yet made for adding a romantic legato mode in the library using already-availble samples (the brief noodle in my post wasn‘t an overwhelmingly strong one).

@Ben is listening, I know.


----------



## Slazz

biomuse said:


> Sensitively written and impactfully realized.
> 
> As well, your piece is the best argument yet made for adding a romantic legato mode in the library using already-availble samples (the brief noodle in my post wasn‘t an overwhelmingly strong one).
> 
> @Ben is listening, I know.


Thanks very much!


----------



## Rich4747

Slazz said:


> Hi everyone, here is another test with Elite Strings.
> To recreate the slur legate I used the portamento technique.



Your Elite Strings videos are amazing!, instant sub


----------



## Slazz

Rich4747 said:


> Your Elite Strings videos are amazing!, instant sub


Thanks!


----------



## Soundbed

Slazz said:


> Hi everyone, here is another test with Elite Strings.
> To recreate the slur legate I used the portamento technique.



Excellent work, I finally took some time to look closely at what you did there.

I think one of the reasons it's so effective is because it's used quite sparingly and in a subtle way, only when "needed".

Couldn't see the technique on my phone but in 1080px on my full screen I could pick out when you chose to trigger those subtle changes.

For other folks, check out the example around 1:03... I highlighted 3 times it was used (there may have been more, I wasn't positive from the screencast).


----------



## biomuse

Definitely tasteful.


----------



## Slazz

Soundbed said:


> Excellent work, I finally took some time to look closely at what you did there.
> 
> I think one of the reasons it's so effective is because it's used quite sparingly and in a subtle way, only when "needed".
> 
> Couldn't see the technique on my phone but in 1080px on my full screen I could pick out when you chose to trigger those subtle changes.
> 
> For other folks, check out the example around 1:03... I highlighted 3 times it was used (there may have been more, I wasn't positive from the screencast).


Thanks!
In this example I used this techinque just for the melody of first violin. I was in a hurry


----------



## Petrucci

Oh, it seems that there is a nice update to Elite Strings!

"Added: All presets now include a new dimension in the legato branch of the dimension tree. It’s possible to choose between the regular transition and the new “slurred” legato transition. In addition this slurred transition is also available as an auto-speed option in the Legato agile branch."

Can't wait to try it!


----------



## RMH

Petrucci said:


> Oh, it seems that there is a nice update to Elite Strings!
> 
> "Added: All presets now include a new dimension in the legato branch of the dimension tree. It’s possible to choose between the regular transition and the new “slurred” legato transition. In addition this slurred transition is also available as an auto-speed option in the Legato agile branch."
> 
> Can't wait to try it!


Nice information! Thank you!


----------



## Petrucci

RMH said:


> Nice information! Thank you!


Not at all!)


----------



## madfloyd

I own Elite Strings but I don't have much experience with VSL. How does one get informed about the existence of updates?


----------



## Ben

madfloyd said:


> I own Elite Strings but I don't have much experience with VSL. How does one get informed about the existence of updates?


You wait for the official announcement in a few minutes


----------



## AndyP

Ben said:


> You wait for the official announcement in a few minutes


Can we hope for this update at SSP as well?


----------



## Ben

AndyP said:


> Can we hope for this update at SSP as well?


Of course you can hope, but I can't say if and when such an update would be available. 
Personally I would like to see this articulation for the Strings Pro as well - so let's see what happens


----------



## holywilly

Ben said:


> Of course you can hope, but I can't say if and when such an update would be available.
> Personally I would like to see this articulation for the Strings Pro as well - so let's see what happens


Oh Lord, everything is possible and everything can happen!


----------



## markit

Now I am pumped!!!! Haha


----------



## Soundbed

Petrucci said:


> Oh, it seems that there is a nice update to Elite Strings!
> 
> "Added: All presets now include a new dimension in the legato branch of the dimension tree. It’s possible to choose between the regular transition and the new “slurred” legato transition. In addition this slurred transition is also available as an auto-speed option in the Legato agile branch."
> 
> Can't wait to try it!


Very cool news, thanks!


----------



## Aitcpiano

I had only just purchased the Synchron Strings Bundle but this update with an option for the slurred legato could change that! What the likelihood that this will also come to Synchron Strings Pro?


----------



## DaddyO

Just downloaded. Looking forward to what sounds like a great addition.

Also note that individual SYzd Woodwind instruments were released, including ensembles for Flutes, Oboes, Clarinets and Basoons. If you already own the VI versions the crossgrade prices are minimal.


----------



## DaddyO

Aitcpiano said:


> I had only just purchased the Synchron Strings Bundle but this update with an option for the slurred legato could change that! What the likelihood that this will also come to Synchron Strings Pro?


On the VSL forum Ben said he'd like to see it happen, but no news right now.


----------



## Aitcpiano

DaddyO said:


> On the VSL forum Ben said he'd like to see it happen, but no news right now.


If I knew it was then I would be keeping the Synchron range as this is one of the only real things I found missing from the string libraries, does this slurred legato option also work with the legato agile and with fast speeds for a more slurred run sound and fast slurred passages?


----------



## Aitcpiano

Just tested the Slurred legato. It's not what I was expecting it to be. Its really just for when you think a portamento would be too much but still want a slight portamento to the next note. You cant just use the slurred legato articulation as that would sound terrible, you have to switch between the regular and slurred and use the slurred when you want this slight portamento.


----------



## AndyP

Elite Strings cost me only 261€ when I complete the bundle. I had rather hoped for Christmas, that it is now already happened all the better.


----------



## Ben

Aitcpiano said:


> Just tested the Slurred legato. It's not what I was expecting it to be. Its really just for when you think a portamento would be too much but still want a slight portamento to the next note. You cant just use the slurred legato articulation as that would sound terrible, you have to switch between the regular and slurred and use the slurred when you want this slight portamento.


I would not use the Slurred Legato for every transition. 
If you don't wnat to keyswitch, it's quite easy to modify the instrument preset:

1. Change the Dimension-Selector to Dimenstion Control H (it's not used, so we can use it without messing up the preset)






2. Select a Controller-Type for the Dimension controller.
- You want to switch automatically when playing slow passages? -> Speed
- You want to switch based on key velocity? -> Velocity






3. In the tab CONTROL, scroll down to the Dimension Controller H and tweak it to your liking (invert the curve by clicking on the two arrows, click-drag the curve to change the shape, click on the last button if you want a bipolar curve, ...)






Personally, I would set this up to be velocity sensitive when using the mod-wheel presets, and invert and tweak the curve so it will only trigger the slurred legato with low velocities.


----------



## Guy Bacos

Aitcpiano said:


> Just tested the Slurred legato. It's not what I was expecting it to be. Its really just for when you think a portamento would be too much but still want a slight portamento to the next note. You cant just use the slurred legato articulation as that would sound terrible, you have to switch between the regular and slurred and use the slurred when you want this slight portamento.


Avoid using it excessively. You'll get better results if you alternate between slurred and regular.

Just a rough idea:


----------



## madfloyd

Where does one find the update? It's not showing up for me under MyDownloads\Synchron Library Updates...


----------



## Ben

My Downloads -> Synchron Library
Click on date to order based on release date.


----------



## Aitcpiano

Guy Bacos said:


> Avoid using it excessively. You'll get better results if you alternate between slurred and regular.


Yep, but you'd also not want to use that slur articulation for all 4 notes of that slur between bars 1 and 2.


----------



## Aitcpiano

Ben said:


> I would not use the Slurred Legato for every transition.
> If you don't wnat to keyswitch, it's quite easy to modify the instrument preset:
> 
> 1. Change the Dimension-Selector to Dimenstion Control H (it's not used, so we can use it without messing up the preset)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2. Select a Controller-Type for the Dimension controller.
> - You want to switch automatically when playing slow passages? -> Speed
> - You want to switch based on key velocity? -> Velocity
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3. In the tab CONTROL, scroll down to the Dimension Controller H and tweak it to your liking (invert the curve by clicking on the two arrows, click-drag the curve to change the shape, click on the last button if you want a bipolar curve, ...)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I would set this up to be velocity sensitive when using the mod-wheel presets, and invert and tweak the curve so it will only trigger the slurred legato with low velocities.


Thanks, will give this a go later today  Synchron player is certainly brilliant for setting things up!


----------



## madfloyd

Ben said:


> My Downloads -> Synchron Library
> Click on date to order based on release date.


Unfortunately not appearing...





And just to show I own the full library:
< deleted due to it showing serial numbers >

Any ideas?


----------



## Guy Bacos

Aitcpiano said:


> Yep, but you'd also not want to use that slur articulation for all 4 notes of that slur between bars 1 and 2.


No, you have to make appropriate adjustments.


----------



## Casiquire

madfloyd said:


> Unfortunately not appearing...
> 
> 
> Any ideas?


Maybe I'm a worrywart, but could there be a downside to posting serials publicly? I always thought it should be avoided but maybe I've been worried over nothing all this time


----------



## madfloyd

Casiquire said:


> Maybe I'm a worrywart, but could there be a downside to posting serials publicly? I always thought it should be avoided but maybe I've been worried over nothing all this time


Thank you for pointing that out, it never occurred to me. I've now deleted it.

Ironically the image is still available via the link in your post (#827), would you mind editing it out?
EDIT: Nevermind, user error.


----------



## muziksculp

@madfloyd ,

I checked myVSL , and same here, I don't see an Update for the Elite Strings Slurred Legato bonus content. I guess we just have to wait. 

Maybe @Ben can provide some feedback as to when we can expect the update to show up in our VSL accounts.


----------



## AndyP

Guy Bacos said:


> No, you have to make appropriate adjustments.


At the moment I'm still downloading Elite strings and maybe you can answer me a question about the slurred articulations:

Synchron Strings 1 have slur legatos but the slurred ones in the Elite update are different from these, did I understand that correctly? At least it looks that way in the examples that were posted here, and they definitely sound different from the ones in SY1 (which I also like, by the way).

I hope I don't get confused with the names when I use these librairies together.


----------



## Casiquire

madfloyd said:


> Thank you for pointing that out, it never occurred to me. I've now deleted it.
> 
> Ironically the image is still available via the link in your post (#827), would you mind editing it out?
> EDIT: Nevermind, user error.


Good call! I edited it out too.


----------



## Doug

muziksculp said:


> @madfloyd ,
> 
> I checked myVSL , and same here, I don't see an Update for the Elite Strings Slurred Legato bonus content. I guess we just have to wait.
> 
> Maybe @Ben can provide some feedback as to when we can expect the update to show up in our VSL accounts.


I found them in the Synchron Library Downloads as opposed to Updates.


----------



## AndyP

muziksculp said:


> @madfloyd ,
> 
> I checked myVSL , and same here, I don't see an Update for the Elite Strings Slurred Legato bonus content. I guess we just have to wait.
> 
> Maybe @Ben can provide some feedback as to when we can expect the update to show up in our VSL accounts.


Is it perhaps because the name does not contain slurred? For me it looks like this.


----------



## muziksculp

Doug said:


> I found them in the Synchron Library Downloads as opposed to Updates.


Thanks 

OK, now I see the updates. Dated Sept. 01-2021


----------



## muziksculp

I wonder if our *VI-C Legato Police* has checked out these new Slurred Legato patches for Elite Strings ?


----------



## Aitcpiano

AndyP said:


> At the moment I'm still downloading Elite strings and maybe you can answer me a question about the slurred articulations:
> 
> Synchron Strings 1 have slur legatos but the slurred ones in the Elite update are different from these, did I understand that correctly? At least it looks that way in the examples that were posted here, and they definitely sound different from the ones in SY1 (which I also like, by the way).
> 
> I hope I don't get confused with the names when I use these librairies together.


It's like a short portamento transition. It's not like a CSS legato patch with more pronounced slurred transitions. Hence, you would only use this on some note transitions were you don't want a full portamento.


----------



## Guy Bacos

AndyP said:


> At the moment I'm still downloading Elite strings and maybe you can answer me a question about the slurred articulations:
> 
> Synchron Strings 1 have slur legatos but the slurred ones in the Elite update are different from these, did I understand that correctly? At least it looks that way in the examples that were posted here, and they definitely sound different from the ones in SY1 (which I also like, by the way).
> 
> I hope I don't get confused with the names when I use these librairies together.


Yes, one is more pronounced than the other, as I just compared them. Each string library should ideally have various degrees of slurs.


----------



## Sarah Mancuso

Are there any audio examples yet of the new slurred transitions?


----------



## Guy Bacos

Sarah Mancuso said:


> Are there any audio examples yet of the new slurred transitions?


"Evocation" and "Photographs of the Past"





__





SYNCHRON ELITE STRINGS - Vienna Symphonic Library


Synchron Elite Strings provide a harmonious ensemble of 22 strings (6 1st violins, 5 2nd violins, 4 violas, 4 cellos, and 3 double basses) featuring superb performers from our Synchron Stage Orchestra.




www.vsl.co.at


----------



## AndyP

Guy Bacos said:


> Yes, one is more pronounced than the other, as I just compared them. Each string library should ideally have various degrees of slurs.


Thank you very much for your quick reply Guy!


----------



## muziksculp

Guy Bacos said:


> "Evocation" and "Photographs of the Past"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SYNCHRON ELITE STRINGS - Vienna Symphonic Library
> 
> 
> Synchron Elite Strings provide a harmonious ensemble of 22 strings (6 1st violins, 5 2nd violins, 4 violas, 4 cellos, and 3 double basses) featuring superb performers from our Synchron Stage Orchestra.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vsl.co.at


These Elite Strings Slurred Legatos sound so smooth, and expressive. 

@Guy Bacos Thanks for these wonderful demos showing them in action.


----------



## Evans

Who is willing to be the first user to post some exposed clips of this update?


----------



## FireGS

Evans said:


> Who is willing to be the first user to post some exposed clips of this update?


Hahah, I learned my lesson from the MSS thread. #neveragain


----------



## Evans

FireGS said:


> Hahah, I learned my lesson from the MSS thread. #neveragain


Fair, I have about 17 reasons why I do not post audio here.


----------



## muziksculp

Evans said:


> Who is willing to be the first user to post some exposed clips of this update?


Would like to know what our VI-C Legato Police thinks about the new Elite Strings Slurred Legato patches.


----------



## FireGS

Evans said:


> 17 reasons why


I'd watch that Netflix show.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

FireGS said:


> I'd watch that Netflix show.


_VI-C Legato Police_ is another one.

"Have you been drinking?"

"I'm just a slurred legato, officer."


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> Would like to know what our VI-C Legato Police thinks about the new Elite Strings Slurred Legato patches.


I'm not really part of the force, but it still doesn't really do it for me. I have yet to experience VSL string legato i truly like, but it's a matter of taste and if you like it then who cares if i don't!


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> I'm not really part of the force, but it still doesn't really do it for me. I have yet to experience VSL string legato i truly like, but it's a matter of taste and if you like it then who cares if i don't!


They sound super smooth to my ears, I'm not sure what is to dislike about them ?


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> They sound super smooth to my ears, I'm not sure what is to dislike about them ?


Because the problem for me wasn't just that one transition style. Their entire philosophy around recording strings isn't for me.


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> Because the problem for me wasn't just that one transition style. Their entire philosophy around recording strings isn't for me.


I see. 

I have no issues with their philosophy with regards to recording strings, I don't know how different they are from other developers as far as recording strings is concerned, I would think they have some top notch recording engineers to deal with that aspect. 

It boils down to taste, the great thing about Synchron libraries, is the flexibility, and the amount of variations you can create with the mics, and effects inside the Synchron Player, it's not like one size fits all, you can customize it to your taste quite a bit.


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> I see.
> 
> I have no issues with their philosophy with regards to recording strings, I don't know how different they are from other developers as far as recording strings is concerned, I would think they have some top notch recording engineers to deal with that aspect.
> 
> It boils down to taste, the great thing about Synchron libraries, is the flexibility, and the amount of variations you can create with the mics, and effects inside the Synchron Player, it's not like one size fits all, you can customize it to your taste quite a bit.


Eh i won't dwell on it. And yes i love all the mics and flexibility Synchron libraries give you!


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

Casiquire said:


> Eh i won't dwell on it. And yes i love all the mics and flexibility Synchron libraries give you!


----------



## Casiquire

Zoot_Rollo said:


>


YOU'LL NEVER CATCH ME


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> YOU'LL NEVER CATCH ME


But they already reported your vehicle.


----------



## Aitcpiano

How are you all using Synchron Strings Elite and Pro in regards to reverb settings. Do you normally disable the in build reverb? I just tried out disabling the in built reverb and added my own reverb tails and I really prefer the sound.


----------



## holywilly

I never use the built-in reverb in Synchron Player.


----------



## Aitcpiano

holywilly said:


> I never use the built-in reverb in Synchron Player.


I just disabled it now and added my own reverb tails and the whole library sounds a lot better! Not quite sure why I didnt do this when I first got the libraries.


----------



## Soundbed

Evans said:


> Who is willing to be the first user to post some exposed clips of this update?


I may not be the first to post but I plan to download the update and add the new slurred to … gimme the keys.

Ocifer I can walk with one foot inside the other just wash me.

If it’s not really like Vista (or some of CSS) and more like a quick port / slide I’ve got a piece that I can use to choose selected transitions for it… I was thinking — at first read — it might sound like Vista; but I guess not.

I’ll likely also share the midi because I’m not _loving_ the sound of Standard and hoping someone will record my midi with the Full version so I can hear the ribbon mics (and any others) to determine if the ~$250USD upgrade might be worthwhile for me.

Here’s to slurred. Where’s my lawyer? I demand a cone fall.


----------



## Aitcpiano

Soundbed said:


> I may not be the first to post but I plan to download the update and add the new slurred to … gimme the keys.
> 
> Ocifer I can walk with one foot inside the other just wash me.
> 
> If it’s not really like Vista (or some of CSS) and more like a quick port / slide I’ve got a piece that I can use to choose selected transitions for it… I was thinking — at first read — it might sound like Vista; but I guess not.
> 
> I’ll likely also share the midi because I’m not _loving_ the sound of Standard and hoping someone will record my midi with the Full version so I can hear the ribbon mics (and any others) to determine if the ~$250USD upgrade might be worthwhile for me.
> 
> Here’s to slurred. Where’s my lawyer? I demand a cone fall.


I've just started layering Elite Strings with Pro and also disabling the in built reverb and adding my own reverb tails and I'm now much preferring the sound of the libraries.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

These "slurred" legatos have always been in their libraries, e.g. Synchron Strings I, and even the VI series. If this is the same approach, you can use them for different scenarios:

– exaggerated slur (more than legato, but less than portamento)
– sul legato (finger position change on one string)
– alternative to agile legato; in VI libraries these patches work also great for runs, because they have these smearing between the notes

I still don't like the naming, because the regular legatos are also slurred. Always bothered me.


----------



## Zanshin

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> These "slurred" legatos have always been in their libraries, e.g. Synchron Strings I, and even the VI series. If this is the same approach, you can use them for different scenarios:
> 
> – exaggerated slur (more than legato, but less than portamento)
> – sul legato (finger position change on one string)
> – alternative to agile legato; in VI libraries these patches work also great for runs, because they have these smearing between the notes
> 
> I still don't like the naming, because the regular legatos are also slurred. Always bothered me.


This new "Slurred" transition is way different from the "Synchron Strings I - Legato – slurred" patch. The "Slurred" transition is much closer to Portamento. I would say if Synchron Strings I had had this transition style there would have been less complaints about no actual Portamento patch haha.


----------



## Petrucci

I noticed that if I load the previous project with Elite Strings - I can not see new legato in there but if I reload the preset - it appears! Is there any way to see it without reloading? Would be little time consuming to do that to every instance..!


----------



## Petrucci

Btw I like new legato a lot - yes, it's like Portamento but not that prononced - will be very useful!)


----------



## Guy Bacos

Petrucci said:


> Btw I like new legato a lot - yes, it's like Portamento but not that prononced - will be very useful!)


Except that portamento has a more particular purpose, whereas slurred articulation can be used in a variety of ways.


----------



## Petrucci

Guy Bacos said:


> Except that portamento has a more particular purpose, whereas slurred articulation can be used in a variety of ways.


Yes, I've been using regular legato combining with portamento, but sometimes portamento was too obvious - now there is whole new dimension introduced!)) BTW, Guy, your demos for VSL are an audio delicacy for my ears, I'm a big fan!)


----------



## Zanshin

Soundbed said:


> I’ll likely also share the midi because I’m not _loving_ the sound of Standard and hoping someone will record my midi with the Full version so I can hear the ribbon mics (and any others) to determine if the ~$250USD upgrade might be worthwhile for me.


Soundbed I thought I saw before you might be eligible for EDU discount? If so try Best Service with their VSL calculator thingie, the upgrade should be a bit cheaper.

That said... when you say that you are "not loving" the sound, are you being facetious/kind? I don't think think the extra mics are going to get you into bed lol. I do believe Elite is the one Synchron library where the extra mics are 100% worth it though - the 2nd chair mic and ribbon are gorgeous and open the library up for pretty effective divisi use.


----------



## Soundbed

Petrucci said:


> I noticed that if I load the previous project with Elite Strings - I can not see new legato in there but if I reload the preset - it appears! Is there any way to see it without reloading? Would be little time consuming to do that to every instance..!


Ok thanks for this tip. I reloaded each preset and now I see the new slurred legato. I'll make a quick video before and after.


----------



## Soundbed

I am hearing some chorus / phasing / flanging effects during the transitions. It's inconsistent. Anyone else?


----------



## Soundbed

Zanshin said:


> try Best Service with their VSL calculator thingie


Calculator thingie? I don't see a link to that on Best Service's site... https://www.bestservice.com/vsl_vienna_symphonic_library.html


----------



## Zanshin

Soundbed said:


> Calculator thingie? I don't see a link to that on Best Service's site... https://www.bestservice.com/vsl_vienna_symphonic_library.html


Once you have a VSL product in your cart, on the cart screen will be a section below that reads "VSL User discount", hit the button that says "Check" and it will have you put in the email you use with VSL.


----------



## Soundbed

Zanshin said:


> I do believe Elite is the one Synchron library where the extra mics are 100% worth it though - the 2nd chair mic and ribbon are gorgeous and open the library up for pretty effective divisi use.


Yeah I am interested in the other mics. Here's a quick video with the same piece in two libraries (minimal changes, simple MIDI) and I'm wondering if I'd like the sound of VSL Elite more with the other mics ... maybe I need to turn off the built in reverb and use external verb as others have suggested (using standard mics) though.






Zanshin said:


> Once you have a VSL product in your cart, on the cart screen will be a section below that reads "VSL User discount", hit the button that says "Check" and it will have you put in the email you use with VSL.


oh wow! neat!


----------



## Ben

Soundbed said:


> I am hearing some chorus / phasing / flanging effects during the transitions. It's inconsistent. Anyone else?


My guess: You have the velocity crossfade set to a value exactly between two velocities.
Feel free to PM me the project file and I'll take a look at that.


----------



## Jack Weaver

Soundbed said:


> I am hearing some chorus / phasing / flanging effects during the transitions. It's inconsistent. Anyone else?


Yes, in some circumstances - certainly not all. I’m not in front of my rig right now so I’ll have to investigate more later so I can isolate this condition. Offhand, I think crossfading was the core of the problem. I was certainly able to work around it on my first effort of trying the new update.

I’m sure VSL is aware of this. Perhaps Ben will chime in.

.

I see Ben is on top of this!


----------



## Aitcpiano

Soundbed said:


> Yeah I am interested in the other mics. Here's a quick video with the same piece in two libraries (minimal changes, simple MIDI) and I'm wondering if I'd like the sound of VSL Elite more with the other mics ... maybe I need to turn off the built in reverb and use external verb as others have suggested (using standard mics) though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oh wow! neat!



I'd definitely turn off the in built reverb and try adding some external reverb first before deciding on upgrading the mics. I personally am much preferring the sound of the library after disabling the in built reverbs. Adding some external reverb and also layering elite with Synchron pro has improved the sound of the library for me. I also was unsure on it before doing this.


----------



## Soundbed

Aitcpiano said:


> I'd definitely turn off the in built reverb and try adding some external reverb first before deciding on upgrading the mics. I personally am much preferring the sound of the library after disabling the in built reverbs. Adding some external reverb and also layering elite with Synchron pro has improved the sound of the library for me. I also was unsure on it before doing this.


Thank you! I will try that first!


----------



## CT

Soundbed said:


> Thank you! I will try that first!


I would be interested in hearing an A/B if you find turning off the default processing to make a significant difference....


----------



## tcb

Soundbed said:


> I am hearing some chorus / phasing / flanging effects during the transitions. It's inconsistent. Anyone else?



VSL Synthesizer Strings 👻


----------



## Petrucci

When I'm choosing the preset I'm switching reverb off and listen to combination of mics. Honestly the reverb in Synchron is totally fine but for sake of saving some processor power I'm switching it off and send the tracks to whatever external reverb. My favourite preset so far is Surround To Stereo Wide. Also even if you switch reverb off you have to take into account that there are EQs on some mics, delays and levels, also the presets might have been made with reverb in mind so only some mics have the sends to Synchron reverb and if you switch it off you might want to turn down some close, mid mics a little etc so it depends on what you want, it's all very flexible.


----------



## Casiquire

I'm sure the Synchron reverb is very high quality and sounds good, because VSL has been making quality effects for decades now, but i never use any built in effects. I don't need to waste time learning that many interfaces and how the software reacts across so many different libraries and recordings, and my standalone reverbs can work on all my libraries just the same, so i don't see the need.

Their effects suite is great though!


----------



## richhickey

Soundbed said:


> Yeah I am interested in the other mics.


The first suggestion I'd make, for all synchron string libs, is to, starting with fresh ears, pull up only the tree mics. Play and listen for a while and get into the quality of the room. Then only if you want something else, try gradually bringing in the solo/ribbon/mid. I think the mid mics are way too loud in the default configurations, making the strings seem harsh and strident. If you like the more ambient sound of OT or SF it's in the tree mics. Once you have a tree dominated mic mix you _might_ be interested in the full mics, but they really are a subtlety unless doing surround.


----------



## Soundbed

richhickey said:


> The first suggestion I'd make, for all synchron string libs, is to, starting with fresh ears, pull up only the tree mics. Play and listen for a while and get into the quality of the room. Then only if you want something else, try gradually bringing in the solo/ribbon/mid. I think the mid mics are way too loud in the default configurations, making the strings seem harsh and strident. If you like the more ambient sound of OT or SF it's in the tree mics. Once you have a tree dominated mic mix you _might_ be interested in the full mics, but they really are a subtlety unless doing surround.


I was mostly interested in the ribbon based on brief demo videos.


----------



## richhickey

Soundbed said:


> I was mostly interested in the ribbon based on brief demo videos.


The ribbon is much warmer than the mids, for sure.


----------



## Ben

Soundbed said:


> I am hearing some chorus / phasing / flanging effects during the transitions. It's inconsistent. Anyone else?



So I think I found the main issue causing this phasing:
It seems like using vibrato/non-vibrato crossfading articulations in combination with SoundVariation can be a little tricky.
In your example you have set the articulation to "Regular Vibrato" while the Dimension fader A (CC 20) is set to 0 (-> no vibrato).
Both values together seem to set the internal crossfade-value to the perfect middle (0+127)/2 = 63, causing phasing between the vibrato and non-vibrato articulation (so this has nothing to do with Slurred Legato and will happen with most other articulations as well).

Solution: Set the Dimension Controller A (CC20) automation in your DAW, or select the articulation without crossfading in the SoundVariation lane. In my test this solved the phasing.

Edit: You would have to set it to a higher value then 0 and SoundVariation will reset the crossfade value after each articulation change. So it might be easier to work without vibrato crossfade (or you have to set a lot of automation correctly placed after each SoundVariation change).


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Soundbed said:


> I am hearing some chorus / phasing / flanging effects during the transitions. It's inconsistent. Anyone else?


Could also be because of the vibrato crossfrade. I heard this in demos and walkthroughs before. Only on crossfade between senza and vibrato.

Okay, I see that Ben already answered.  

But to be honest: I expect that a vibrato crossfade works seamless.


----------



## Soundbed

Ben said:


> So I think I found the main issue causing this phasing:
> It seems like using vibrato/non-vibrato crossfading articulations in combination with SoundVariation can be a little tricky.
> In your example you have set the articulation to "Regular Vibrato" while the Dimension fader A (CC 20) is set to 0 (-> no vibrato).
> Both values together seem to set the internal crossfade-value to the perfect middle (0+127)/2 = 63, causing phasing between the vibrato and non-vibrato articulation (so this has nothing to do with Slurred Legato and will happen with most other articulations as well).
> 
> Solution: Set the Dimension Controller A (CC20) automation in your DAW, or select the articulation without crossfading in the SoundVariation lane. In my test this solved the phasing.
> 
> Edit: You would have to set it to a higher value then 0 and SoundVariation will reset the crossfade value after each articulation change. So it might be easier to work without vibrato crossfade (or you have to set a lot of automation correctly placed after each SoundVariation change).


Oh interesting ok. I will experiment with that and make a new video when I have time, to focus exclusively on the sound of slurred legato with no phasing sound. Thank you!


----------



## Soundbed

Ben said:


> So I think I found the main issue causing this phasing:
> It seems like using vibrato/non-vibrato crossfading articulations in combination with SoundVariation can be a little tricky.
> In your example you have set the articulation to "Regular Vibrato" while the Dimension fader A (CC 20) is set to 0 (-> no vibrato).
> Both values together seem to set the internal crossfade-value to the perfect middle (0+127)/2 = 63, causing phasing between the vibrato and non-vibrato articulation (so this has nothing to do with Slurred Legato and will happen with most other articulations as well).
> 
> Solution: Set the Dimension Controller A (CC20) automation in your DAW, or select the articulation without crossfading in the SoundVariation lane. In my test this solved the phasing.
> 
> Edit: You would have to set it to a higher value then 0 and SoundVariation will reset the crossfade value after each articulation change. So it might be easier to work without vibrato crossfade (or you have to set a lot of automation correctly placed after each SoundVariation change).


tl;dr #1 — I'm going to choose the articulation I actually wanted, because the articulation causing the issue wasn't really what I wanted after you explained what happened

tl;dr #2 — the update changed what was being selected and i didn't realize what it was doing differently.

long version —

ok, I see now that the previously selected Studio One Sound Variation was changing multiple things after the update. not only Marcato / Sfz (not my intention) but also selecting that Sen X Vib crossfade (not my intention) art that I was confused about in the video. I paused and mentioned that I didn't know why it was selected but didn't realize that it had changed once I updated the package.

~

that said — now that you've puzzled through it, I wonder if there might be a way for users to avoid accidentally doing what I did. (?)


----------



## Soundbed

All right I recorded 1.5 hours of exploring slurred legato and external reverbs. I’ll want to edit things before posting. Bottom line is I think the new slurred legato really nice. It fits the bill for me. I’m not legato police and I’m not a purist but I think VSL did a great service to Elite owners by adding this. And external reverb is where it’s at.


----------



## Aitcpiano

Soundbed said:


> All right I recorded 1.5 hours of exploring slurred legato and external reverbs. I’ll want to edit things before posting. Bottom line is I think the new slurred legato really nice. It fits the bill for me. I’m not legato police and I’m not a purist but I think VSL did a great service to Elite owners by adding this. And external reverb is where it’s at.


How you finding the library now with external reverb instead of the in built ones?


----------



## CT

Soundbed said:


> All right I recorded 1.5 hours


Is that all? Thanks for nothing.


----------



## Soundbed

Mike T said:


> Is that all? Thanks for nothing.


Forgot to mention. I think I’m finally getting over my cold. My wife calls it a man cold. I’m sure that’s meaningful. Not sure exactly what it means. Going to watch some tv. All that video recording and reverb testing wore me out. I’ll pet the cat for a while. Then maybe I’ll feel rejuvenated and can edit video and share it.


----------



## Soundbed

Aitcpiano said:


> How you finding the library now with external reverb instead of the in built ones?


First impression is I won’t “need” to upgrade from standard to full. We live in a wonderful time when so many great strings libraries are getting built. Adding some external reverb immediately showed me a couple things: (1) I dial in a very similar reverb very quickly from a number of external tools, so I have a specific sound in mind (2) yes Elite sounds subjectively better even with standard — although my use case for Elite was always to “add some detail” so I still will have to weigh the ~$200-250 USD price to upgrade against some other chamber lib bc there are a few


----------



## Aitcpiano

Soundbed said:


> First impression is I won’t “need” to upgrade from standard to full. We live in a wonderful time when so many great strings libraries are getting built. Adding some external reverb immediately showed me a couple things: (1) I dial in a very similar reverb very quickly from a number of external tools, so I have a specific sound in mind (2) yes Elite sounds subjectively better even with standard — although my use case for Elite was always to “add some detail” so I still will have to weigh the ~$200-250 USD price to upgrade against some other chamber lib bc there are a few


Sounds like you had very similar experience to me as well. I'll probably also only be using elite to add detail to Pro and ill probably only be looking to use Elite as a layering library or for divisi parts.


----------



## PerryD

I posted this in the Samplemodeling S&ES thread. Layering SSP and S&ES is yielding a pretty lush vintage sound for me. Layered and using CC2 (BC) for controlling dynamics. Reverb disabled in both, using a Fabfilter Pro R hall. _Nothing_ makes _everyone_ happy. Works for me though in this style.


----------



## Marlon Brown

PerryD said:


> I posted this in the Samplemodeling S&ES thread. Layering SSP and S&ES is yielding a pretty lush vintage sound for me. Layered and using CC2 (BC) for controlling dynamics. Reverb disabled in both, using a Fabfilter Pro R hall. _Nothing_ makes _everyone_ happy. Works for me though in this style.


This sounds great! What library is SSP? All these acronyms are so confusing and usually close.


----------



## Petrucci

Marlon Brown said:


> This sounds great! What library is SSP? All these acronyms are so confusing and usually close.


Synchron Strings Pro


----------



## Casiquire

PerryD said:


> I posted this in the Samplemodeling S&ES thread. Layering SSP and S&ES is yielding a pretty lush vintage sound for me. Layered and using CC2 (BC) for controlling dynamics. Reverb disabled in both, using a Fabfilter Pro R hall. _Nothing_ makes _everyone_ happy. Works for me though in this style.


That's a REALLY nice sound!



Marlon Brown said:


> This sounds great! What library is SSP? All these acronyms are so confusing and usually close.



This might help until you start to remember them 😊 on the bright side there aren't a ton that come up terribly often and you pretty quickly get the hang of them






Glossary of VI-C Abbreviations


AAF: Able Artist Foundation (link) AAX: Avid Audio Extension (plugin format created for Pro Tools) AB: Adventure Brass (Music Sampling) AD/AD2: Addictive Drums (XLN Audio) AI: Audio Imperia ALB1/ALB2/ALB3/etc: Albion Series (Spitfire) ALBO: Albion ONE (Spitfire) AM: Audio Modeling AMS: Aleatoric...




vi-control.net


----------



## Jack Weaver

The new slur in Elite is pretty good. 

But the Timbre Adjust is killer. 
It's something that you can use on most phrases. 

.


----------



## Zanshin

Jack Weaver said:


> But the Timbre Adjust is killer.



Agreed, it would be nice if SSP was updated with it as well.


----------



## Soundbed

Jack Weaver said:


> But the Timbre Adjust is killer.


I noticed that slider. Is it new with the slurred legato update?


----------



## AndyP

Soundbed said:


> Forgot to mention. I think I’m finally getting over my cold. My wife calls it a man cold. I’m sure that’s meaningful. Not sure exactly what it means. Going to watch some tv. All that video recording and reverb testing wore me out. I’ll pet the cat for a while. Then maybe I’ll feel rejuvenated and can edit video and share it.


Let's go then, we eat early!


----------



## Petrucci

I have to say that those new slurred transitions are very useful and quite emotional, very nice!


----------



## Aitcpiano

Wondering how everyone who has Elite strings/ Synchron strings would go about creating a line like the one I have attached to this post with Synchron Strings Pro or Elite strings.

I cant really see any demos with these kind of fast slurred type lines and fast run type figures in the demos.

Edit: Also, audio track I have added to this post is quite rough so timings are quite off as it was just quickly played in live.


----------



## Soundbed

ok i edited 1.5 hours down to 50 minutes. mostly slurred legato, some reverbs, a bit on avoiding the phasing issue and a couple random ramblings...

0:00 Intro
2:07 Violins 1
12:29 Violins 2
16:02 Cellos
33:00 Basses
36:40 Full Piece (Slurred Version)
38:47 Reverbs: R4 (setup)
41:31 Little Plate (setup)
43:05 VerbSuite Classics (setup)
45:37 HReverb
47:40 No reverb


----------



## Casiquire

Soundbed said:


> ok i edited 1.5 hours down to 50 minutes. mostly slurred legato, some reverbs, a bit on avoiding the phasing issue and a couple random ramblings...
> 
> 0:00 Intro
> 2:07 Violins 1
> 12:29 Violins 2
> 16:02 Cellos
> 33:00 Basses
> 36:40 Full Piece (Slurred Version)
> 38:47 Reverbs: R4 (setup)
> 41:31 Little Plate (setup)
> 43:05 VerbSuite Classics (setup)
> 45:37 HReverb
> 47:40 No reverb



On the subject of how you'd tell a player to play transitions that way, the best analog i can think of (and it's one of my favorite things) is to force a string and then write a leap. This is one of my favorite sounds from Dimension Strings. It's a beautiful little glide. There's something emotional communicated in this moment where players are trying to make something smooth and seamless that physically can't be smooth and seamless.

Thank you for your work here!


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> is to force a string and then write a leap.


What is meant here by force a string ? not sure I understand what you mean.


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> What is meant here by force a string ? not sure I understand what you mean.


The most common one is sul g, which tells a violinist to play an entire line on the G string. It's a technique i love and the only libraries I'm aware of that let you select any string on any instrument are Dimension Strings and Hollywood Strings. The latter calls it "finger position" but you can get the same effect


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> What is meant here by force a string ? not sure I understand what you mean.


If you're not too familiar, what makes the technique so special and powerful is that not only do different strings have sightly different character (so in some libraries you hear a subtle tone shift when the players change strings) but also the higher up the string they play, the more passionate, intense, and stretched the sound gets. And weird enough, it can get softer at the same time


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> If you're not too familiar, what makes the technique so special and powerful is that not only do different strings have sightly different character (so in some libraries you hear a subtle tone shift when the players change strings) but also the higher up the string they play, the more passionate, intense, and stretched the sound gets. And weird enough, it can get softer at the same time


Oh.. I see. I know the technique, i.e. forcing the player to play on a specific string, ie. on G String. I just thought you are describing something else, that is different regarding the slurring technique. 

All clear now.


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> Oh.. I see. I know the technique, i.e. forcing the player to play on a specific string, ie. on G String. I just thought you are describing something else, that is different regarding the slurring technique.
> 
> All clear now.


I really wish more devs would sample it! It's the only thing i think MSS is missing. I guess there will never be a perfect library lol gotta just buy them all


----------



## Zanshin

Soundbed said:


> ok i edited 1.5 hours down to 50 minutes. mostly slurred legato, some reverbs, a bit on avoiding the phasing issue and a couple random ramblings...


Good video. Side effect for me - the sound variation stuff in Studio One looks so slick haha. I bounce between Ableton and Cubase... Cubase for linear composing but I don't love it. Might have swap out Cubase for Studio One. Ugh.


----------



## Casiquire

Zanshin said:


> Good video. Side effect for me - the sound variation stuff in Studio One looks so slick haha. I bounce between Ableton and Cubase... Cubase for linear composing but I don't love it. Might have swap out Cubase for Studio One. Ugh.


Where special about daw integration?


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Casiquire said:


> Where special about daw integration?


I think he's talking about sound variation called articulation map in daws like Cubase. Studio One automatically detect Syncron player articulations. No mapping necessairy. And sampling legato playing technique on all strings is very cool i agree.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Soundbed said:


> ok i edited 1.5 hours down to 50 minutes. mostly slurred legato, some reverbs, a bit on avoiding the phasing issue and a couple random ramblings...
> 
> 0:00 Intro
> 2:07 Violins 1
> 12:29 Violins 2
> 16:02 Cellos
> 33:00 Basses
> 36:40 Full Piece (Slurred Version)
> 38:47 Reverbs: R4 (setup)
> 41:31 Little Plate (setup)
> 43:05 VerbSuite Classics (setup)
> 45:37 HReverb
> 47:40 No reverb



Sounds quite good. As Guy Bacos said one shouldn't use this for every transition. Maybe one can set this with a velocity switch so that you have portamento > slurred > regular. So it's similar to CSS, I think (I don't have the library). I would set it up this way.

Concerning notation, I would say this "slurred" sound is something a player would decide on his/her own; unless you explicitly want that sound. Each plays different. Maybe it falls more under the category "espressivo". And also what Casiquire said about forcing a specific string (sul legato).


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

VSL has also released a new video on how and when to use these "slurs".

Don't understand me wrong, I appreciate the effort in releasing videos, but I find them unwatchable. Is this a word? All of these explanatory videos are made this way. There are so many things going on, because you don't have a narrator. You have to read the text, look at all the string sections at the same time and have to take care of all the other elements which pop up. Puuuh.... Less is more! Fabio's videos are way better in this regard.

Just a nice advice from a graphic designer's point of view.


----------



## Zanshin

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> I think he's talking about sound variation called articulation map in daws like Cubase. Studio One automatically detect Syncron player articulations. No mapping necessairy. And sampling legato playing technique on all strings is very cool i agree.


Yes, looks so much faster and readable in S1.


----------



## muziksculp




----------



## Soundbed

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> VSL has also released a new video on how and when to use these "slurs".
> 
> Don't understand me wrong, I appreciate the effort in releasing videos, but I find them unwatchable. Is this a word? All of these explanatory videos are made this way. There are so many things going on, because you don't have a narrator. You have to read the text, look at all the string sections at the same time and have to take care of all the other elements which pop up. Puuuh.... Less is more! Fabio's videos are way better in this regard.
> 
> Just a nice advice from a graphic designer's point of view.





Spoiler: My initial response ... irrelevant.



I fully understand. 100%.

Thanks for the feedback.

You probably can guess, it takes me many times longer to prepare and deliver better (more concise, clear, direct, well-prepared, scripted or semi-scripted) videos.

To be transparent: I have made $0 off my YouTube channel to date.

Everything I've done on it has been for zero money, not even "coffee money".

I've put in effort only because I hope people are able to benefit.

And I hope to contribute some value to the world, in my way.

fwiw here are the number of edits I made in the above video to make it slightly more watchable by condensing "unnecessary" things I said, or during "silent" clicking around sections. All the vertical lines in the timeline at the bottom were edit points where I removed something to make it more "watchable". The pink on top are graphics (mostly during the reverb section at the end).

Again better videos are the result of more preparation, and take longer to produce.


----------



## Guy Bacos

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> VSL has also released a new video on how and when to use these "slurs".
> 
> Don't understand me wrong, I appreciate the effort in releasing videos, but I find them unwatchable. Is this a word? All of these explanatory videos are made this way. There are so many things going on, because you don't have a narrator. You have to read the text, look at all the string sections at the same time and have to take care of all the other elements which pop up. Puuuh.... Less is more! Fabio's videos are way better in this regard.
> 
> Just a nice advice from a graphic designer's point of view.



Could this be more aimed at me?  Ok, I'll keep this in mind for future screencasts.


----------



## Jack Weaver

Guy Bacos said:


> Could this be more aimed at me?  Ok, I'll keep this in mind for future screencasts.


Respectfully, I believe that PixelPoet1985 has correctly outlined the issue. There are so very many areas that the viewer needs to look at simultaneously that it makes your recent videos difficult to follow - especially without narration. If we could look at all your important detail sequentially instead of simultaneously, then you would reach more of the hearts and minds of your viewing audience.

The examples you use and the information you are imparting are very good. It's just a bit painful to try to take it all in at one time. 

Thanks, I look forward to your next videos!

.


----------



## Guy Bacos

While I agree and will remember this, nothing prevents you from pausing the video or watching it more than once, each time focusing on a different aspect. The goal is to provide as much detail as possible.


----------



## muziksculp

Hi @Soundbed,

I watched your Slurred Leg. video above, I wasn't able to tell if you have used a very slight overlap for the legato midi notes ? or you didn't ? Just wondering if one needs to have some very short overlap so the legato transitions (Slurred ones here) are very smooth from one note to the other.

Thanks


----------



## Hadrondrift

Guy Bacos said:


> pausing the video or watching it more than once


That's exactly how I watch them, pausing *and* watching them multiple times, works quite well for me. However, the information content per time is indeed very dense. This is unusual, one has to get used to it a bit, but in the end I always find your videos extremely helpful.


----------



## Jack Weaver

Guy Bacos said:


> While I agree and will remember this, nothing prevents you from pausing the video or watching it more than once, each time focusing on a different aspect. The goal is to provide as much detail as possible.


That is what I've done here to date. Guessing not everyone is as patient as me.

.


----------



## Guy Bacos

Hadrondrift said:


> That's exactly how I watch them, pausing *and* watching them multiple times, works quite well for me. However, the information content per time is indeed very dense. This is unusual, one has to get used to it a bit, but in the end I always find your videos extremely helpful.



For example, in my opinion, I like to include the majority of the Players for each part, along with piano scroll, so that if someone is interested in following the bass clarinet's articulation, he can do so; if it's not important to him, he can follow other elements, but at least the information is given.


----------



## ptram

Guy Bacos said:


> For example, in my opinion, I like to include the majority of the Players for each part, along with piano scroll, so that if someone is interested in following the bass clarinet's articulation, he can do so; if it's not important to him, he can follow other elements, but at least the information is given.


I think the point is that Guy's music is very rich, so it's hard to leave only a single detail at a particular moment. I confess that I usually don't focus only on the articulations, but also on the composition itself!

Paolo


----------



## Rich4747

The VSL has some great resources on their website and I always watch your videos Guy and I always want them to be longer as the content is so packed with great info, the synchron player is deep and offers so many possible ways to work. For years I have wanted a full set of in detail tutorials on how to get the most out of the VSL system. Synchron is stable and feature rich what a great time for that to happen.... would I pay for that - you bet.


----------



## Soundbed

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Soundbed,
> 
> I watched your Slurred Leg. video above, I wasn't able to tell if you have used a very slight overlap for the legato midi notes ? or you didn't ? Just wondering if one needs to have some very short overlap so the legato transitions (Slurred ones here) are very smooth from one note to the other.
> 
> Thanks


Yes, when there is a slurred legato there is a slight overlap.

I use a macro in Studio One that adds the overlap for me. It's set to a very slight overlap which may be difficult to see easily unless zooming in.


----------



## Steve Martin

Hi Guy, 

thanks for sharing the music with the slurred legato patch. The music you've written sounds beautiful! 

I'm just wanting to know how many legato layers there are for this patch. Do you have any knowledge of this? 

thanks,

Steve.


----------



## Guy Bacos

Steve Martin said:


> Hi Guy,
> 
> thanks for sharing the music with the slurred legato patch. The music you've written sounds beautiful!
> 
> I'm just wanting to know how many legato layers there are for this patch. Do you have any knowledge of this?
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Steve.



Thanks, Steve!

I'm afraid I don't know how many legato layers there are.


----------



## muziksculp

Hi @Guy Bacos ,

I always enjoy watching your very helpful VSL videos, and I always wondered how you go about selecting, and changing the articulations, which you do quite frequently in your midi phrases. So, do you use one articulation first to write the phrase, then go on a second pass to assign the suitable articulations ? or ... ? just curious about your workflow on how you assign the articulations, and how you decide on which ones to choose ?

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## Guy Bacos

Hi Muziksculp,

When I produce demos, I'll try to include as many articulations as possible to give a sense of what's accessible in the library. As a result, I may draw inspiration from the articulation and create a motif around it. In other circumstances, as you mentioned, play the phrase with a single articulation first, then deconstruct it as much as possible with additional articulations to give it as much expression as possible. We all know that there are no rules when it comes to the creative process. The fine-tuning step begins once you've decided on better articulations for your phrase and it's just as essential to fine-tune as it is to find the perfect articulation. That's the basis, but there is more to it than that. Maybe I'll make a screencast about it.


----------



## Steve Martin

Guy Bacos said:


> Thanks, Steve!
> 
> I'm afraid I don't know how many legato layers there are.


Thanks Guy for getting back to me. Are the slurred legatos dynamics only approximately soft to mf? Just wondering what the extent of dynamics are available for the patch. 

thanks if you can let me know,

best,

Steve


----------



## Guy Bacos

Steve Martin said:


> Thanks Guy for getting back to me. Are the slurred legatos dynamics only approximately soft to mf? Just wondering what the extent of dynamics are available for the patch.
> 
> thanks if you can let me know,
> 
> best,
> 
> Steve


Oh, I see. I'll look into it and get back to you.


----------



## muziksculp

Guy Bacos said:


> Hi Muziksculp,
> 
> When I produce demos, I'll try to include as many articulations as possible to give a sense of what's accessible in the library. As a result, I may draw inspiration from the articulation and create a motif around it. In other circumstances, as you mentioned, play the phrase with a single articulation first, then deconstruct it as much as possible with additional articulations to give it as much expression as possible. We all know that there are no rules when it comes to the creative process. The fine-tuning step begins once you've decided on better articulations for your phrase and it's just as essential to fine-tune as it is to find the perfect articulation. That's the basis, but there is more to it than that. Maybe I'll make a screencast about it.


Hi Guy,

Thank You so much.

Yes, this is very helpful. Especially if you have some time to do a screencast focusing on this specific phase of the production.

I usually know if I want a note to be a i.e. short or long articulation, that's kind of easy to decide on, it's the next decision, given the variety of shorts, and longs, and all the other options that can take some time experimenting with to select which one will work best in context, also making them transition seamlessly from one note to the next, when there is an articulation change, sometimes some additional tweaking with CCs and Velocity values are needed, ...etc. ..etc. These are the type of details that I would love to learn how to best deal with, and decide on, as professionally as possible to obtain very realistic results. Also the general workflow of this phase of the production.

Cheers & Have a wonderful weekend,
Muziksculp


----------



## mscp

Guys, sorry if I derail this thread a bit...I want to download a few more VSL libraries tonight, but I was wondering how the standard libraries are and if I can make use of the mic positions that come with it, and still have a passing/approving mock up....

Will the lack of those surround mics hinder a great mockup pitch?


----------



## Ben

Steve Martin said:


> Thanks Guy for getting back to me. Are the slurred legatos dynamics only approximately soft to mf? Just wondering what the extent of dynamics are available for the patch.
> 
> thanks if you can let me know,
> 
> best,
> 
> Steve


It should be similar to the other articulations (3-5, depending on the variation, if I'm not mistaken).


----------



## Ben

mscp said:


> Will the lack of those surround mics hinder a great mockup pitch?


No, the Standard mics provide the primary mics, and it will also allow you to create awesome mixes. 
Still, the additional close and (high-)surround mics add a lot of possibilities, even when being downmixed to stereo. The spacial qualities you can get with these can not be recreated with only the Standard mics (especially my favorite mic after clode+Main: High Surround).
You will also get additional mixer presets, including more Signature presets, helping you to quickly find the right sound for your arrangement.


----------



## JTB

How did VSL come to acquire these slurred patches?. Were they not edited in time for the release of Elite Strings?. I can't imagine VSL called the players and engineers back in to record them. 

The same for the Dimension Strings Sul Pont patches, were they accidently misplaced for several years?. And will we be able to purchase the Sul Pont patches at any stage without completing the DS bundle?. As I personally don't need DS II but would very much like the Sul Pont patches.


----------



## muziksculp

JTB said:


> How did VSL come to acquire these slurred patches?. Were they not edited in time for the release of Elite Strings?. I can't imagine VSL called the players and engineers back in to record them.


Good question. 

But, if they had these slurred legato recordings when they recorded the library, why would they have not bothered including them when it was released ? 

So, maybe they did call the players for adding the slurred legatos. Maybe @Ben can provide the answer.


----------



## Katznegold

Hey everyone, so with the sale and everything I'm very tempted to pull the trigger and I've listened so many times to the demos but still a bit uncertain with which library to go.
For users of Elite or SSP which do you recommend more as a first vsl library?


----------



## holywilly

Katznegold said:


> Hey everyone, so with the sale and everything I'm very tempted to pull the trigger and I've listened so many times to the demos but still a bit uncertain with which library to go.
> For users of Elite or SSP which do you recommend more as a first vsl library?


ELITE!


----------



## richhickey

Katznegold said:


> Hey everyone, so with the sale and everything I'm very tempted to pull the trigger and I've listened so many times to the demos but still a bit uncertain with which library to go.
> For users of Elite or SSP which do you recommend more as a first vsl library?


The section sizes are completely different. That should dominate your decision, since getting an orchestral library of the wrong size for the music you want to write is a waste, no matter how good it is.

That said, if I could keep only one it would be Elite. Chamber sized libraries are rarer, it's complete and consistent, and the performance detache is an important articulation IMO.


----------



## Katznegold

richhickey said:


> The section sizes are completely different. That should dominate your decision, since getting an orchestral library of the wrong size for the music you want to write is a waste, no matter how good it is.
> 
> That said, if I could keep only one it would be Elite. Chamber sized libraries are rarer, it's complete and consistent, and the performance detache is an important articulation IMO.


Thanks that's very reassuring. This is also the first chamber sized library that ticks most boxes, for me at least. and I have other "big" sounding libraries, but damn does SSP sound gorgeous


----------



## Petrucci

Katznegold said:


> Hey everyone, so with the sale and everything I'm very tempted to pull the trigger and I've listened so many times to the demos but still a bit uncertain with which library to go.
> For users of Elite or SSP which do you recommend more as a first vsl library?



Honestly both are great, SSP is more lush sounding and ES is more intimate sounding so if you plan to write something more intimate I would go for ES and vice versa. Also ES is little bit more sophisticated in articulations.


----------



## dunamisstudio

So made the jump and got SSP.

I plan on getting Elite Strings next.

But I noticed between sale and personal discount, I can get the Strings Bundle for 370. Get the last two of that bundle, Elite and SSI. Or just get Elite for 325? Strings Bundle a no brainer?


----------



## daviddln

dunamisstudio said:


> So made the jump and got SSP.
> 
> I plan on getting Elite Strings next.
> 
> But I noticed between sale and personal discount, I can get the Strings Bundle for 370. Get the last two of that bundle, Elite and SSI. Or just get Elite for 325? Strings Bundle a no brainer?


If you have the money, get the Strings Bundle. SS1 is really good.


----------



## Petrucci

dunamisstudio said:


> So made the jump and got SSP.
> 
> I plan on getting Elite Strings next.
> 
> But I noticed between sale and personal discount, I can get the Strings Bundle for 370. Get the last two of that bundle, Elite and SSI. Or just get Elite for 325? Strings Bundle a no brainer?



Strings Bundle!)


----------



## Guy Bacos

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> VSL has also released a new video on how and when to use these "slurs".
> 
> Don't understand me wrong, I appreciate the effort in releasing videos, but I find them unwatchable. Is this a word? All of these explanatory videos are made this way. There are so many things going on, because you don't have a narrator. You have to read the text, look at all the string sections at the same time and have to take care of all the other elements which pop up. Puuuh.... Less is more! Fabio's videos are way better in this regard.
> 
> Just a nice advice from a graphic designer's point of view.


The idea is to have videos that are complementary to one another. Fabio does the tutorial videos for each instrument, while I show screencasts of how to apply it in a larger context and provide as much information as possible.


----------



## richhickey

Guy Bacos said:


> The idea is to have videos that are complementary to one another. Fabio does the tutorial videos for each instrument, while I show screencasts of how to apply it in a larger context and provide as much information as possible.


I think your videos are incredibly well done and useful. Thanks for them! The density is great, (the pause button can be used), and I much prefer text over narration. Please don't change your approach


----------



## Katznegold

Another question I have is whether to buy ES through vsl or via best service which is a bit cheaper. is there a catch? appreciate you insight


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Katznegold said:


> Another question I have is whether to buy ES through vsl or via best service which is a bit cheaper. is there a catch? appreciate you insight


It'll be cheaper with BS but i don't think you can return it unlike getting it direct from VSL. Also, don't forget to link you vsl account at BS so you might get a better price depending on what you own(not sure how that works exactly). And you can get it even cheaper if you use your BS credits. That is if you have some.


----------



## Zanshin

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> It'll be cheaper with BS but i don't think you can return it unlike getting it direct from VSL. Also, don't forget to link you vsl account at BS so you might get a better price depending on what you own(not sure how that works exactly). And you can get it even cheaper if you use your BS credits. That is if you have some.


Yes, no returns buying from BS is my understanding. Also can take a day for the license to show up on VSL when you buy through BS. That said I almost always order VSL stuff from BS, no issues at all.


----------



## dunamisstudio

I've bought majority of mine from Best Service and had no problems. Yes like others have mentioned, no returns and you receive your serial day later. Plus being in the US, they charge the same price in USD, as Euros, like Spitfire does. Least from my experience so far.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Guy Bacos said:


> The idea is to have videos that are complementary to one another. Fabio does the tutorial videos for each instrument, while I show screencasts of how to apply it in a larger context and provide as much information as possible.


Yes, maybe "unwatchable" was a bit harsh. Sorry for that, didn't know another word. Hope it didn't go into the wrong direction.  The videos are very informative, no question, but I really had to watch the first video three times to get everything. In my opinion, there's a lot going on.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Soundbed said:


> Spoiler: My initial response ... irrelevant.
> 
> 
> 
> I fully understand. 100%.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> You probably can guess, it takes me many times longer to prepare and deliver better (more concise, clear, direct, well-prepared, scripted or semi-scripted) videos.
> 
> To be transparent: I have made $0 off my YouTube channel to date.
> 
> Everything I've done on it has been for zero money, not even "coffee money".
> 
> I've put in effort only because I hope people are able to benefit.
> 
> And I hope to contribute some value to the world, in my way.
> 
> fwiw here are the number of edits I made in the above video to make it slightly more watchable by condensing "unnecessary" things I said, or during "silent" clicking around sections. All the vertical lines in the timeline at the bottom were edit points where I removed something to make it more "watchable". The pink on top are graphics (mostly during the reverb section at the end).
> 
> Again better videos are the result of more preparation, and take longer to produce.


Really sorry for the confusion.


----------



## synergy543

There is immense value in Guy's videos in that they are showing the application being used in context. This is so much more valuable than if it were simplified to simply be a training tutorial on how to make settings for each function. There would be nothing wrong with having a simple training video in addition, however, don't overlook the value of being able to watch over the shoulders of the master. It's really incredible that he is sharing with us all of those little secrets (even if you do have to expend a little effort in studying the video with pause and replay).

Also, there is a lot to digest because he has put an immense amount of effort and detail into these tutorials. This is what makes it sound good!


----------



## Craig Allen

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Also, don't forget to link you vsl account at BS so you might get a better price depending on what you own(not sure how that works exactly).


How is this done (i.e. linking VSL account at BS)?

(I have made purchases from Best Service, but not of VSL products.)
Are you suggesting linking the accounts prior to purchase? Or after one's first VSL purchase at BS for benefitting later purchases?


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Craig Allen said:


> How is this done (i.e. linking VSL account at BS)?
> 
> (I have made purchases from Best Service, but not of VSL products.)
> Are you suggesting linking the accounts prior to purchase? Or after one's first VSL purchase at BS for benefitting later purchases?


Put the VSL product you want in your shopping cart -> view shopping cart -> 3rd option below ask if you have a VSL account -> click check and enter you email address. And you should see the price go down if you qualify etc.


----------



## Craig Allen

Perfect. Thank you, Obi-Wan.


----------



## Steve Martin

Guy Bacos said:


> Oh, I see. I'll look into it and get back to you.


Thank you Guy.

Steve


----------



## Guy Bacos

Steve Martin said:


> Thanks Guy for getting back to me. Are the slurred legatos dynamics only approximately soft to mf? Just wondering what the extent of dynamics are available for the patch.
> 
> thanks if you can let me know,
> 
> best,
> 
> Steve


Oh so sorry Steve for the delay. Thanks for reminding me. I just tried it, it sounds proportional to the Vel.XF. So I's say from ppp to close to ff.


----------



## Katznegold

Finally pulled the trigger, it's like having live session players in my computer and me being like "ok now do this"

One thing that's pretty frustrating is the incredibly low amplitude of the instruments, at max volume, expression and velocity the violins for example peak at -22db.
How do you manage with it? is there an elegant way around this or something's wrong on my end?


----------



## Petrucci

Katznegold said:


> Finally pulled the trigger, it's like having live session players in my computer and me being like "ok now do this"
> 
> One thing that's pretty frustrating is the incredibly low amplitude of the instruments, at max volume, expression and velocity the violins for example peak at -22db.
> How do you manage with it? is there an elegant way around this or something's wrong on my end?



I just raise the fader in my DAW, that's all) or you can add gain another way!


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

Petrucci said:


> I just raise the fader in my DAW, that's all) or you can add gain another way!







__





Klanghelm


Klanghelm audio plugins (VST, VST3, AU, AAX)




klanghelm.com


----------



## Zanshin

There’s a master volume in the Synchron Player too. The presets come pre-adjusted so the Synchron libraries play consistently together.


----------



## Petrucci

Zanshin said:


> There’s a master volume in the Synchron Player too. The presets come pre-adjusted so the Synchron libraries play consistently together.



BTW is it only me who lowers Synchronized Woodwinds in Wide preset around 6-9db lower than SSPro or ES in Wide preset depending on the instrument? Or Synchron Brass in Wide preset 5-6db lower than Strings? Same goes for SP too btw - around 7-10db difference.


----------



## Katznegold

I'm trying to program synchron player to switch to\and from detache when pressing the sustain pedal. i.e pressing the pedal cc64 is detache and letting go is whatever I had before. anybody have any tips?
so far I got to program cc64 value 127 to send a keyswitch using Cubase's midi transform plugin, but the problem is that it doesn't switch back when I let go of the sustain pedal...


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Katznegold said:


> I'm trying to program synchron player to switch to\and from detache when pressing the sustain pedal. i.e pressing the pedal cc64 is detache and letting go is whatever I had before. anybody have any tips?
> so far I got to program cc64 value 127 to send a keyswitch using Cubase's midi transform plugin, but the problem is that it doesn't switch back when I let go of the sustain pedal...


I'm not at my main machine to test it, but I think it's because the sustain pedal isn't an on/off switch. It needs a retrigger information. My pedal has a button where you can select whether it's a switch or continuous. Just a guess, I have to try it! ;P


----------



## dts_marin

Not trying to stir the pot but does anyone else wish VSL gave us the *option* to download samples without any noise reduction particularly for the string libraries? 

For many VSL users having noise in the samples would be sacrilege but personally I prefer a bit more control over the sound.

For example I tried Elite Strings Standard and LOVED the scripting and the sample editing. Heck I even loved the legatos which I was skeptical given the reactions to SSP here. But no matter what I tried the sound lacked low end and was very nasal. Sadly, I had to return the library. I couldn't justify the Full version because I don't think the extra mics would change my problems with the general sound.

I'm sure VSL tried it and decided it wasn't up to their standards to release samples with noise but I think most of the problems some users have with the sound may be caused by the very clinical noise reduction.

I'm more than happy to be proven wrong here.

It's something so subjective I don't think anyone should get mad at this. Kudos to VSL for their great libraries even if they don't suit my sound.


----------



## holywilly

dts_marin said:


> Not trying to stir the pot but does anyone else wish VSL gave us the *option* to download samples without any noise reduction particularly for the string libraries?
> 
> For many VSL users having noise in the samples would be sacrilege but personally I prefer a bit more control over the sound.
> 
> For example I tried Elite Strings Standard and LOVED the scripting and the sample editing. Heck I even loved the legatos which I was skeptical given the reactions to SSP here. But no matter what I tried the sound lacked low end and was very nasal. Sadly, I had to return the library. I couldn't justify the Full version because I don't think the extra mics would change my problems with the general sound.
> 
> I'm sure VSL tried it and decided it wasn't up to their standards to release samples with noise but I think most of the problems some users have with the sound may be caused by the very clinical noise reduction.
> 
> I'm more than happy to be proven wrong here.
> 
> It's something so subjective I don't think anyone should get mad at this. Kudos to VSL for their great libraries even if they don't suit my sound.


Have you tried the Signature mix presets?


----------



## dts_marin

holywilly said:


> Have you tried the Signature mix presets?


I tried everything provided in the Standard version and went beyond that. Tried all kinds of EQs tweaks I could think.. tried Soothe, saturation. No dice. 

Nothing wrong with my monitoring because I constantly referenced numerous live string recordings I have from sessions and also other string libraries I have.


----------



## Petrucci

dts_marin said:


> I tried everything provided in the Standard version and went beyond that. Tried all kinds of EQs tweaks I could think.. tried Soothe, saturation. No dice.
> 
> Nothing wrong with my monitoring because I constantly referenced numerous live string recordings I have from sessions and also other string libraries I have.


Have you tried turning off EQs in Synchron Player and listening to mics one by one? I can also add that in case there is a demo in the future for Elite Strings - demo the full version, maybe surround mics would be better for your taste, I would miss em.


----------



## holywilly

Full mics set will unleash the goodness of Synchron Elite Strings. I usually don't apply any effect or EQ to each mic, just balance them to achieve the desired sound.

Also, layering VSL with Orchestral Tools will achieve liveness and lushness.


----------



## Ben

There is almost no noise in Synchron Stage Vienna thanks to the triple room construction. So no heavy noise removal is necassary / gets applied.
You can always add additional noise, I like to do it as well. MIR Pro comes with noise recordings of each stage, and I have to boost the Synchron Stage one or use another one most of the time


----------



## Petrucci

Ben said:


> There is almost no noise in Synchron Stage Vienna thanks to the triple room construction. So no heavy noise removal is necassary / gets applied.
> You can always add additional noise, I like to do it as well. MIR Pro comes with noise recordings of each stage, and I have to boost the Synchron Stage one or use another one most of the time


That's very interesting! How is it done in Mir Pro? Also are there any in depth manuals for Mir Pro btw? For example, there are multiple mics profiles for setting the sound in venue (the standard being cardioid) - and are there any guides which one to choose?


----------



## dts_marin

Ben said:


> There is almost no noise in Synchron Stage Vienna thanks to the triple room construction. So no heavy noise removal is necassary / gets applied.
> You can always add additional noise, I like to do it as well. MIR Pro comes with noise recordings of each stage, and I have to boost the Synchron Stage one or use another one most of the time


That's interesting. Is it possible to show us a few raw Decca Tree samples of strings (chamber or whatever else) recorded in Synchron Stage without any processing done? Are we getting the full spectrum?

I'm not trying to doubt VSL's choices. You obviously know what you are doing for almost 2 decades. As I stated it's a subjective thing and we all are trying to help here (at least I hope to do so).

All other aspects of the library are great honestly. I'll stop here because maybe this isn't productive.


----------



## holywilly

Ben said:


> There is almost no noise in Synchron Stage Vienna thanks to the triple room construction. So no heavy noise removal is necassary / gets applied.
> You can always add additional noise, I like to do it as well. MIR Pro comes with noise recordings of each stage, and I have to boost the Synchron Stage one or use another one most of the time


How is it done? Synchron libraries in MIR Pro?


----------



## Casiquire

holywilly said:


> How is it done? Synchron libraries in MIR Pro?


To get the noise, you don't need to run the library through MIR. You can just turn on noise


----------



## Ben

Petrucci said:


> Also are there any in depth manuals for Mir Pro btw?


Yes:






Introduction | VSL - Software Manuals







www.vsl.info










Vienna MIR RoomPack 1 - Vienna Konzerthaus | VSL - Software Manuals







www.vsl.info







Petrucci said:


> How is it done in Mir





holywilly said:


> How is it done? Synchron libraries in MIR Pro?








Addons | VSL - Software Manuals







www.vsl.info





If you work in VEP, just enable RoomTone, and you'll get a channel with the roomtone.
If you use MIR as plugin, you can activate it by adding an instance and click the RT button:





MIR PRO Plugin | VSL - Software Manuals







www.vsl.info


----------



## Petrucci

Ben said:


> Yes:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Introduction | VSL - Software Manuals
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vsl.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vienna MIR RoomPack 1 - Vienna Konzerthaus | VSL - Software Manuals
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vsl.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Addons | VSL - Software Manuals
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vsl.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you work in VEP, just enable RoomTone, and you'll get a channel with the roomtone.
> If you use MIR as plugin, you can activate it by adding an instance and click the RT button:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MIR PRO Plugin | VSL - Software Manuals
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vsl.info



Thanks, Ben! I've read those ones, I just thought that maybe there were some extended tutorials or manuals, I usually do it by ear, but maybe there are some more theory-based approaches..!


----------



## Ben

Petrucci said:


> I usually do it by ear


This is the best approach. 
Personally, I like to quickly place and set everything in MIR based on my experience and the theory of what should work, and tweak from there by ear.


----------



## Petrucci

Ben said:


> This is the best approach.
> Personally, I like to quickly place and set everything in MIR based on my experience and the theory of what should work, and tweak from there by ear.


Got it, thanks!


----------



## noldar12

It has been a very long time (years actually!) since I've posted here...

I am debating whether or not to purchase Elite Strings while it is still on sale for the next couple of days. I've listened to many demos, and overall am impressed with the sound of it. What I am wondering though: which is better for layering with larger string sections: ES or a combination of the old VI chamber strings (which I have), coupled with synchronized chamber strings? I could see advantages both ways, especially considering the solo mics/large selection of mics with ES full.

I will admit it has been quite awhile since I've done serious music writing, and I'm way overdue to get back to it.

Thanks for your responses.


----------



## Casiquire

noldar12 said:


> It has been a very long time (years actually!) since I've posted here...
> 
> I am debating whether or not to purchase Elite Strings while it is still on sale for the next couple of days. I've listened to many demos, and overall am impressed with the sound of it. What I am wondering though: which is better for layering with larger string sections: ES or a combination of the old VI chamber strings (which I have), coupled with synchronized chamber strings? I could see advantages both ways, especially considering the solo mics/large selection of mics with ES full.
> 
> I will admit it has been quite awhile since I've done serious music writing, and I'm way overdue to get back to it.
> 
> Thanks for your responses.


I'm wondering why you'd want both, given that they're the same samples and there really isn't much reason not to just go for the Synchronized version?


----------



## holywilly

After using elite strings for couple months, I’d say it’s the king of all strings with precise and detailed sets of articulations and mic positions, definitely go for full library, you’ll have access to signature mix presets which powered all mic positions available. 

ES is just so versatile with any genres of music.


----------



## muziksculp

holywilly said:


> After using elite strings for couple months, I’d say it’s the king of all strings with precise and detailed sets of articulations and mic positions, definitely go for full library, you’ll have access to signature mix presets which powered all mic positions available.
> 
> ES is just so versatile with any genres of music.


I second that  

It's a super versatile library, and it sounds wonderful. It does take some time to discover it.


----------



## Lee Blaske

noldar12 said:


> It has been a very long time (years actually!) since I've posted here...
> 
> I am debating whether or not to purchase Elite Strings while it is still on sale for the next couple of days. I've listened to many demos, and overall am impressed with the sound of it. What I am wondering though: which is better for layering with larger string sections: ES or a combination of the old VI chamber strings (which I have), coupled with synchronized chamber strings? I could see advantages both ways, especially considering the solo mics/large selection of mics with ES full.
> 
> I will admit it has been quite awhile since I've done serious music writing, and I'm way overdue to get back to it.
> 
> Thanks for your responses.


Elite Strings is quite amazing. I'd highly recommend it. It's meticulously crafted, and plays like a dream. The range of alternate mix presets explores a LOT of interesting and inspiring qualities (different presets make ES sound like different libraries). There are a lot of good libraries out there, but I can imagine the amount of care and time that went into this library exceeds what went into most of the competition. 

You might actually want to reconsider how much "layering" of string libraries (actual, full sections) you want to do. I've been finding it can actually detracts from realism. It's really not unlike those photographic experiments done years ago where they selected numerous photos of "beautiful" women and morphed them all together. No matter which pictures they chose, the final image looked the same. Layering string sample libraries can easily suck all the character out of your track. It can turn things into monolithic muck. A soaring solo violin with a lot of character above a section is a different matter.


----------



## Casiquire

Lee Blaske said:


> Elite Strings is quite amazing. I'd highly recommend it. It's meticulously crafted, and plays like a dream. The range of alternate mix presets explores a LOT of interesting and inspiring qualities (different presets make ES sound like different libraries). There are a lot of good libraries out there, but I can imagine the amount of care and time that went into this library exceeds what went into most of the competition.
> 
> You might actually want to reconsider how much "layering" of string libraries (actual, full sections) you want to do. I've been finding it can actually detracts from realism. It's really not unlike those photographic experiments done years ago where they selected numerous photos of "beautiful" women and morphed them all together. No matter which pictures they chose, the final image looked the same. Layering string sample libraries can easily suck all the character out of your track. It can turn things into monolithic muck. A soaring solo violin with a lot of character above a section is a different matter.


I agree that layering *can* detract from realism, but can also improve realism and fullness of sound a lot. If you pick libraries that cover each other's flaws, you end up with an improvement. The selection is important


----------



## Ben

Casiquire said:


> I agree that layering *can* detract from realism, but can also improve realism and fullness of sound a lot. If you pick libraries that cover each other's flaws, you end up with an improvement. The selection is important


Yes, you should carefully choose what you are layering. Just slapping together the largeststring section of every library will not make the sound bigger, but rather mushy and synthetic (in most cases).

- You need more definition? -> Try adding a smaller section or first chair / soloists
- You need a lusher sound? -> try adding muted strings (Muted Appassionata Strings for example)
- ...

For example: You can layer most orchestral and bigger sized strings with chamber strings or soloists, even barely audible. Use separat MIDI data for these / randomize the data a little bit and maybe even add more detuning.

But: If it sounds good without layering, don't layer. Trust your ears


----------



## Casiquire

Ben said:


> Yes, you should carefully choose what you are layering. Just slapping together the largeststring section of every library will not make the sound bigger, but rather mushy and synthetic (in most cases).
> 
> - You need more definition? -> Try adding a smaller section or first chair / soloists
> - You need a lusher sound? -> try adding muted strings (Muted Appassionata Strings for example)
> - ...
> 
> For example: You can layer most orchestral and bigger sized strings with chamber strings or soloists, even barely audible. Use separat MIDI data for these / randomize the data a little bit and maybe even add more detuning.
> 
> But: If it sounds good without layering, don't layer. Trust your ears


Agreed. VSL is well positioned for layering with so many varying section sizes, and the stunning achievement that Dimension Strings is.


----------



## Lee Blaske

Casiquire said:


> I agree that layering *can* detract from realism, but can also improve realism and fullness of sound a lot. If you pick libraries that cover each other's flaws, you end up with an improvement. The selection is important


Maybe on rare occasions, but in most cases, I'd say we'll have to agree to disagree on that. That might have been true years ago, but modern libraries by quality developers don't have many flaws that need masking. With a single section, you can hear detail. It's like a fine piece of fabric. The more you pile on, the more things become like polyester double-knit. You've got to be careful not to confuse loudness with fullness. When that layered track is put into context, it can sound really artificial and lifeless. Certainly, YMMV, but I used to layer a lot, and I think the quality of my tracks has really improved since I've been doing it less. Also, nowadays, even for people doing huge, bombastically hyped tracks, there are a number of libraries that totally accomplish that without any layering.


----------



## Lee Blaske

Ben said:


> Yes, you should carefully choose what you are layering. Just slapping together the largeststring section of every library will not make the sound bigger, but rather mushy and synthetic (in most cases).
> 
> - You need more definition? -> Try adding a smaller section or first chair / soloists
> - You need a lusher sound? -> try adding muted strings (Muted Appassionata Strings for example)
> - ...
> 
> For example: You can layer most orchestral and bigger sized strings with chamber strings or soloists, even barely audible. Use separat MIDI data for these / randomize the data a little bit and maybe even add more detuning.
> 
> But: If it sounds good without layering, don't layer. Trust your ears


Great advice. Ravel was big on mixing playing techniques. What I also find interesting to do in some pieces is to contrast section size. Use Synchron Pro Strings sections in some areas, and Elite Strings in others. It can really add interest.


----------



## Ben

Yes, and Elite Strings also allows to change the heard section size by using different mixes. It can sound rather rich and big for the player count, or go as tiny as almost a soloist (Mixer Presets -> 04 Divisi)


----------



## noldar12

I agree with the comments about layering. I'd be looking only to layer orchestra/chamber/solo where the libraries would naturally blend together. I'd not be interested in ending up with layered section sizes that would greatly exceed a typical orchestra, hence chamber for divisi writing or using orchestra/chamber for two pard divisi: perhaps looking for something like SSP/ES/Solo at the most, or layering two or at most three chamber libraries (or would that also end up getting synthy?). I did find an older demo where Synchronized chamber strings had been layered with the older VI chamber strings to be much better than expected. That demo was originally posted here about three years ago I think (found it earlier today).


----------



## muziksculp

I love this @Guy Bacos demo of VSL Elite Strings, It shows how versatile they are, and can be used in so many types of scoring scenarios, and lots of options to sculpt the mix to taste. Here they are doing that Romantic String sound, using closed voicings, extended chords for that jazzy sound.


----------



## Lee Blaske

muziksculp said:


> I love this @Guy Bacos demo of VSL Elite Strings, It shows how versatile they are, and can be used in so many types of scoring scenarios, and lots of options to sculpt the mix to taste. Here they are doing that Romantic String sound, using closed voicings, extended chords for that jazzy sound.



It really is one of the best libraries out there, currently. That video is great. It shows that to get those results, you really need to PLAY the instrument.


----------



## muziksculp

This Elite Strings video shows how one can create divisi sections via just changing the mic settings for each section, and the panning a bit. The library offers the mics for the two leaders of each of the sections, so you can mix them as needed to create variations/divis sections as well, that sound different from each other.

Here Levente Kovacs composition using Elite Strings shows how many divisi sections he uses in this compostion.

Vls 1A, Vls 1B, Vls 2A, Vls 2B, Vls 2B, Vls 2C, Vlas A, Vlas B, Cello Melody, Cellos A, Cellos B.

This produces a very rich string texture, with a lot of movement, and expression, since each of the divisi sections can have it's own dynamics variations, and can also be assigned a different voice of the chord.


----------



## muziksculp

This VSL Elite Strings video playing Ennio Morricone's 'Deborah's theme', from 'Once Upon a Time in America' movie, shows how the various mic presets that come ready with the library can offer quite a bit of variations to the sonic signature of these strings.

That's why I feel that this library is so agile, and can be used in many types of orchestral string applications, from Classical, to Epic Hollywood style, Romantic, Modern, Baroque, ..etc. It's a wonderful library to have.


----------



## Petrucci

Love Elite Strings! 
Here's my latest game track done with it (also with Synchronized Woodwinds, Synchronized Elements and little Synchron Percussion) 









Desert Mystique (Kids Game OST)


Here's one more track I composed and produced for our new upcoming mobile game! All the instruments are from VSL - Synchronized Woodwinds, Elite Strings, Synchron Percussion and Synchronized Elements.




soundcloud.app.goo.gl


----------



## zeng

Well, as this is ES thread I would like to ask; which other string libraries do you use to layer with ES?


----------



## muziksculp

zeng said:


> Well, as this is ES thread I would like to ask; which other string libraries do you use to layer with ES?


I would say VSL Synchron Strings Pro would be a great choice for layering with Elite Strings. I have both, but I haven't tried doing that, plus the ES can function as additional divisi sections with Synchron Strings Pro, to provide a more detailed, and rich sound. 

You could possibly layer ES with other non-VSL Strings libraries as well. I haven't tried doing that though.


----------



## zeng

muziksculp said:


> I would say VSL Synchron Strings Pro would be a great choice for layering with Elite Strings. I have both, but I haven't tried doing that, plus the ES can function as additional divisi sections with Synchron Strings Pro, to provide a more detailed, and rich sound.
> 
> You could possibly layer ES with other non-VSL Strings libraries as well. I haven't tried doing that though.


Great, I think Synchron Strings Pro would fit better than the other strings libraries. But I wonder if other strings libraries work well with ES? "You could possibly layer ES with other non-VSL Strings libraries as well. I haven't tried doing that though."


----------



## muziksculp

zeng said:


> "You could possibly layer ES with other non-VSL Strings libraries as well. I haven't tried doing that though."


Yes, I think so.


----------



## Steve Hicks

Hi Elite Strings Aficionados. I wonder if any one can help. Got ES yesterday and I love it. One thing I tried to do was use the Perf Detache to have a repeated line of crotchets. Sounds great and non mechanical (been wanting this for YEARS). However when you change note the start of the new pitch has a discernible staccato like attack to the note. If you leave enough time it "resets" (I guess) to a "beginning" note and has a soft attack again. Can't quite believe this is on purpose? 

Audio attached so you can hear what I mean - first half no gap and so hard attack, second half big gap so nice soft attack 

Any suggestions gratefully received

Steve


----------



## Bighill

Steve Hicks said:


> Hi Elite Strings Aficionados. I wonder if any one can help. Got ES yesterday and I love it. One thing I tried to do was use the Perf Detache to have a repeated line of crotchets. Sounds great and non mechanical (been wanting this for YEARS). However when you change note the start of the new pitch has a discernible staccato like attack to the note. If you leave enough time it "resets" (I guess) to a "beginning" note and has a soft attack again. Can't quite believe this is on purpose?
> 
> Audio attached so you can hear what I mean - first half no gap and so hard attack, second half big gap so nice soft attack
> 
> Any suggestions gratefully received
> 
> Steve


Just change to "long notes" right before the pitch change, and back to "perf detatche" on the next note.


----------



## Katznegold

I have the Standard version, if you have the money go for the full one. Sadly the standard lacks "richness" in my opinion. still a great buy though, don't regret it one bit!


----------



## Manuel M.

I got a question to the ES users here. Having ES now for quiet some time and loving it, I never really got happy with the slurred legato down to the point of completely omitting it from my template. The slurred legato sounds almost identical to the portamento samples and seeing many of you praising this feature so much I wonder if I am doing something wrong here or if I misunderstand the meaning of slurred legato here, after all. Being a string player myself (guitar), slurred legato in context of a sampling library would mean to me that every note under the slur is played seamlessly without a bow change (or without picking on the guitar). So I would choose a regular legato transition for the first note of a slurred phrase and choosing slurred legato for all the notes to follow under the slur. However, to me the results just don’t sound convincing at all since the notes appear to be a long line of slides from one note into another, as already stated, sounding identical to the portamento articulations to me. Obviously I know that this kind of legato, sliding from one note into another, does exist (a slightly less prominent way of portamento) but given the fact that in sampling libraries regular string legato articulations aren’t what I would understand to be legato (picking/bowing the first note and connecting the rest without bow change or picking) I am a bit confused. My definition of legato on stringed instruments appears to be that of a fingered legato. 🤔

Legato Blur is set to 30 in Synchron Player. Happy to hear how you guys are making use of the slurred legato articulations and where you find them appropriate. Maybe I am overlooking something and you can enlighten me to make use of them in a different way.


----------



## Petrucci

Manuel M. said:


> I got a question to the ES users here. Having ES now for quiet some time and loving it, I never really got happy with the slurred legato down to the point of completely omitting it from my template. The slurred legato sounds almost identical to the portamento samples and seeing many of you praising this feature so much I wonder if I am doing something wrong here or if I misunderstand the meaning of slurred legato here, after all. Being a string player myself (guitar), slurred legato in context of a sampling library would mean to me that every note under the slur is played seamlessly without a bow change (or without picking on the guitar). So I would choose a regular legato transition for the first note of a slurred phrase and choosing slurred legato for all the notes to follow under the slur. However, to me the results just don’t sound convincing at all since the notes appear to be a long line of slides from one note into another, as already stated, sounding identical to the portamento articulations to me. Obviously I know that this kind of legato, sliding from one note into another, does exist (a slightly less prominent way of portamento) but given the fact that in sampling libraries regular string legato articulations aren’t what I would understand to be legato (picking/bowing the first note and connecting the rest without bow change or picking) I am a bit confused. My definition of legato on stringed instruments appears to be that of a fingered legato. 🤔
> 
> Legato Blur is set to 30 in Synchron Player. Happy to hear how you guys are making use of the slurred legato articulations and where you find them appropriate. Maybe I am overlooking something and you can enlighten me to make use of them in a different way.


I take slurred legato in ES for not so prominent portamento - so I use it when I need to make this colourful transition but not as aggressive as portamento would sound in such situation. I use slurred legato in ES pretty often and wait for the same articulation in SSP)))


----------



## Bighill

Manuel M. said:


> I got a question to the ES users here. Having ES now for quiet some time and loving it, I never really got happy with the slurred legato down to the point of completely omitting it from my template. The slurred legato sounds almost identical to the portamento samples and seeing many of you praising this feature so much I wonder if I am doing something wrong here or if I misunderstand the meaning of slurred legato here, after all. Being a string player myself (guitar), slurred legato in context of a sampling library would mean to me that every note under the slur is played seamlessly without a bow change (or without picking on the guitar). So I would choose a regular legato transition for the first note of a slurred phrase and choosing slurred legato for all the notes to follow under the slur. However, to me the results just don’t sound convincing at all since the notes appear to be a long line of slides from one note into another, as already stated, sounding identical to the portamento articulations to me. Obviously I know that this kind of legato, sliding from one note into another, does exist (a slightly less prominent way of portamento) but given the fact that in sampling libraries regular string legato articulations aren’t what I would understand to be legato (picking/bowing the first note and connecting the rest without bow change or picking) I am a bit confused. My definition of legato on stringed instruments appears to be that of a fingered legato. 🤔
> 
> Legato Blur is set to 30 in Synchron Player. Happy to hear how you guys are making use of the slurred legato articulations and where you find them appropriate. Maybe I am overlooking something and you can enlighten me to make use of them in a different way.


It seems like serious sample developers are forced to use a dumbed down language these days. Slurred legato indeed means immediate change of pitch, with no change of bow direction, or re-attack, if you wish. Sometimes, there will be a little sliding into the new note in large intervals, but this is something all players work hard to minimize. The contradictory term "bow change legato" ias also used. Actually, bow change is seen as a non-legato technique. Personally, I think those portamentoish "slurrred legato" articulations are quite useless, and I have the feeling that most users with extensive experience with live orchestras feel the same.


----------



## Zanshin

I use the Elite slurred legato very sparingly. Synchron Strings I has a slurred legato that I like very much, it's way less of a portamento.


----------



## khollister

I find them also useful for fast played runs. I do agree that the transitions are a bit too prominent. About 1/2 the current portamento effect would be perfect


----------



## Manuel M.

Bighill said:


> It seems like serious sample developers are forced to use a dumbed down language these days. Slurred legato indeed means immediate change of pitch, with no change of bow direction, or re-attack, if you wish. Sometimes, there will be a little sliding into the new note in large intervals, but this is something all players work hard to minimize. The contradictory term "bow change legato" ias also used. Actually, bow change is seen as a non-legato technique. Personally, I think those portamentoish "slurrred legato" articulations are quite useless, and I have the feeling that most users with extensive experience with live orchestras feel the same.



Glad I‘m not completely off here. Yep, it’s pretty confusing. Especially because it is just fine for all the brass and wind instruments. 



Zanshin said:


> I use the Elite slurred legato very sparingly. Synchron Strings I has a slurred legato that I like very much, it's way less of a portamento.



Yeah, the Strings I ones sound much better. However, I don’t find myself using that library at all. The attack in the regular legato and sustain articulations is insane and sticks out way too much. I use custom Strings Pro patches, though, with the cantabile articulations borrowed from Strings I (which I absolutely love!). The Strings Pro „fast legato“ articulations work pretty fine and I don’t think I’ll need to borrow the Strings I „slurred legatos“ ones there (might try though). But ya,… as for Elite Strings I don’t really see the point in those „slurred legato“ articulations 🤷🏻‍♂️

Thanks for sharing your opinions and experiences, though 😊


----------



## Soundbed

Manuel M. said:


> Happy to hear how you guys are making use of the slurred legato articulations and where you find them appropriate.


I layer them with Vista.


----------



## muziksculp

Soundbed said:


> I layer them with Vista.


Hehe.. That's an easy fix approach.


----------



## khollister

Bighill said:


> It seems like serious sample developers are forced to use a dumbed down language these days. Slurred legato indeed means immediate change of pitch, with no change of bow direction, or re-attack, if you wish. Sometimes, there will be a little sliding into the new note in large intervals, but this is something all players work hard to minimize. The contradictory term "bow change legato" ias also used. Actually, bow change is seen as a non-legato technique. Personally, I think those portamentoish "slurrred legato" articulations are quite useless, and I have the feeling that most users with extensive experience with live orchestras feel the same.


The problem here is that l_egato_ is not an articulation but a stylistic instruction similar to _Cantabile_. The actual articulation/playing technique is _slurred _(no re-articulation of succeeding notes) or various techniques such as _detache_ (strings only) that play notes separately but in a flowing style as a single phrase. While these terms and notations are pretty well established for strings, my experience is that the terms and especially the actual notation gets fuzzier for winds.

The problem, I suspect, is that sample developers were/are trying to appeal to both classically trained musicians that are familiar with traditional music notation articulations and instructions as well as folks that aren't steeped in that world. As in most fields, trying for a lowest common denominator approach sacrifices accuracy for ease of use.


----------



## Manuel M.

khollister said:


> The problem here is that l_egato_ is not an articulation but a stylistic instruction similar to _Cantabile_. The actual articulation/playing technique is _slurred _(no re-articulation of succeeding notes) or various techniques such as _detache_ (strings only) that play notes separately but in a flowing style as a single phrase. While these terms and notations are pretty well established for strings, my experience is that the terms and especially the actual notation gets fuzzier for winds.
> 
> The problem, I suspect, is that sample developers were/are trying to appeal to both classically trained musicians that are familiar with traditional music notation articulations and instructions as well as folks that aren't steeped in that world. As in most fields, trying for a lowest common denominator approach sacrifices accuracy for ease of use.


I suppose in sample libraries the term legato has its roots in the terminology of synthesizers (monophonic instead of polyphonic) 🤔


----------



## DJiLAND

View attachment Hook_WIP_0221.mp3


I received Synchron Strings Pro today. Now I need Elite Strings for Divisi. 💸💸💸
I'm waiting for Elite Strings' sale.


----------



## Prockamanisc

DJiLAND said:


> I received Synchron Strings Pro today. Now I need Elite Strings for Divisi. 💸💸💸


Are you using all Synchron there?


----------



## DJiLAND

Prockamanisc said:


> Are you using all Synchron there?


Yes, except for the woodwinds. For the woodwinds, I used Synchron-ized Woodwinds for the solo and Synchron Woodwinds for the ensemble. (Because I don't have a Synchronized Woodwind Ensemble...)
In this case, I was not happy with Synchron Woodwinds and Synchron-ized worked better.
It's all VSL anyway.
This is the full library I used.

Synchron-ized Woodwinds
Synchron Woodwinds Full (a3 Ensemble Only)
Synchron Brass Full
Synchron Percussion 1~3 Full (But I think I've probably only used Synchron Percussion I)
Synchron Harp Full
Synchron Strings Pro Full

I'm doing this in my spare time to test the Synchron library, but I still have some more work to do.😆


----------



## Rubens Tubenchlak

DJiLAND said:


> Yes, except for the woodwinds. For the woodwinds, I used Synchron-ized Woodwinds for the solo and Synchron Woodwinds for the ensemble. (Because I don't have a Synchronized Woodwind Ensemble...)
> In this case, I was not happy with Synchron Woodwinds and Synchron-ized worked better.
> It's all VSL anyway.
> This is the full library I used.
> 
> Synchron-ized Woodwinds
> Synchron Woodwinds Full (a3 Ensemble Only)
> Synchron Brass Full
> Synchron Percussion 1~3 Full (But I think I've probably only used Synchron Percussion I)
> Synchron Harp Full
> Synchron Strings Pro Full
> 
> I'm doing this in my spare time to test the Synchron library, but I still have some more work to do.😆


I really like the result, congrats, specially how the trombones performed.
Would like to know more about your disappointments with Synchron woodwinds. I also have both libraries and felt that generally it was a big improvement over the older... But I would like to listen to your point of view.
Again, congrats for the results!


----------



## Casiquire

Rubens Tubenchlak said:


> I really like the result, congrats, specially how the trombones performed.
> Would like to know more about your disappointments with Synchron woodwinds. I also have both libraries and felt that generally it was a big improvement over the older... But I would like to listen to your point of view.
> Again, congrats for the results!


It seems to be a matter of taste because opinions here are split about Synchron vs Synchronized winds


----------



## AlainTH

and VI woodwinds...


----------



## DJiLAND

Rubens Tubenchlak said:


> I really like the result, congrats, specially how the trombones performed.
> Would like to know more about your disappointments with Synchron woodwinds. I also have both libraries and felt that generally it was a big improvement over the older... But I would like to listen to your point of view.
> Again, congrats for the results!


Both seem to be good at different things.
Certain phrases were handled better by the Synchron Ww, while others were better handled by the Synchron-ized Ww.
However, in this case, I generally decided that Synchronized Ww was more advantageous to write more convincingly than Synchron Ww.
I tried to mix the two libraries to use their own strengths, but the tones of the two libraries are quite different than I thought, so it is difficult to match them.
So I didn't use Synchron Ww and only used Synchron-ized Ww.
Well, if it was to make my own music, I would have put a little more effort into blending, but since this is an exercise, I wanted to create a more classical and consistent mockup. (I like to practice with John Williams scores for that)

For comparison, I made an oboe phrase from Synchron Woodwinds.


Phrase 1
View attachment SyzW_Ob1.mp3

Synchron-ized Woodwinds Oboe 1(French)

View attachment SyW_Ob1.mp3

Synchron Woodwinds Oboe 1


Phrase 2
View attachment SyzW_Ob1_p2.mp3

Synchron-ized Woodwinds Oboe 1(French)

View attachment SyW_Ob1_p2.mp3

Synchron Woodwinds Oboe 1


----------



## Saxer

We shouldn't forget that there is only about one half of the solo instruments available now. I hope the other instruments give more sound variation to the collection. I would like the second flute to have a faster vibrato.


----------



## DJiLAND

Saxer said:


> We shouldn't forget that there is only about one half of the solo instruments available now. I hope the other instruments give more sound variation to the collection. I would like the second flute to have a faster vibrato.


I agree. And I'm waiting for an improvement on the first to come along with the second solo.
And to be more greedy, it would be nice to have an articulation extension for the ensemble patch. It lacks a lot of articulation compared to Synchronized and VI (but actually I don't use the a3 ensemble patch very often )


----------



## Casiquire

DJiLAND said:


> Both seem to be good at different things.
> Certain phrases were handled better by the Synchron Ww, while others were better handled by the Synchron-ized Ww.
> However, in this case, I generally decided that Synchronized Ww was more advantageous to write more convincingly than Synchron Ww.
> I tried to mix the two libraries to use their own strengths, but the tones of the two libraries are quite different than I thought, so it is difficult to match them.
> So I didn't use Synchron Ww and only used Synchron-ized Ww.
> Well, if it was to make my own music, I would have put a little more effort into blending, but since this is an exercise, I wanted to create a more classical and consistent mockup. (I like to practice with John Williams scores for that)
> 
> For comparison, I made an oboe phrase from Synchron Woodwinds.
> 
> 
> Phrase 1
> View attachment SyzW_Ob1.mp3
> 
> Synchron-ized Woodwinds Oboe 1(French)
> 
> View attachment SyW_Ob1.mp3
> 
> Synchron Woodwinds Oboe 1
> 
> 
> Phrase 2
> View attachment SyzW_Ob1_p2.mp3
> 
> Synchron-ized Woodwinds Oboe 1(French)
> 
> View attachment SyW_Ob1_p2.mp3
> 
> Synchron Woodwinds Oboe 1


Really interesting comparison, thanks! The Synchronized sounds more solid and stable where Synchron sounds rounder and kind of like putty by comparison. Do closer mics beef up the sound much? Otherwise maybe it's better to think of Synchron as ensembles and blending instruments, and Synchronized as soloists you want to stand out


----------



## Zanshin

Casiquire said:


> it's better to think of Synchron as ensembles and blending instruments, and Synchronized as soloists you want to stand out


This.


----------



## richhickey

Lots of apologists here, but the solo Synchron WWs sound inarticulate and static, never mind the copious ambience overlap effects. They blend well if you want to sound like an organ  Easily the weakest part of the Synchron series. OT and CSW did a much better job recording winds in a room, IMO.


----------



## Zanshin

richhickey said:


> Lots of apologists here, but the solo Synchron WWs sound inarticulate and static, never mind the copious ambience overlap effects. They blend well if you want to sound like an organ  Easily the weakest part of the Synchron series. OT and CSW did a much better job recording winds in a room, IMO.


Rich I know it's hard to believe the sun doesn't set and rise solely for you...

Let's be clear, when someone's opinion is different than yours, that does not make them an apologist.


----------



## richhickey

Zanshin said:


> Rich I know it's hard to believe the sun doesn't set and rise solely for you...
> 
> Let's be clear, when someone's opinion is different than yours, that does not make them an apologist.


Hey, we all wanted it to be great, me included. Now we're settling for "it's good for blending", but actually it isn't even (again, _IMO_). I'm glad some people are genuinely enjoying it, and certainly wasn't referring to them.


----------



## muziksculp

I'm not a fan of the Synchron Woodwinds Solo Oboe. It surely lacks rich timbre of a double reed instrument, and sounds like a clarinet trying to sound like an Oboe. 

Seriously, did the VSL developers think this Oboe sounds good, or even close to a real oboe ? What mics did they use that basically filtered all the rich harmonics that the Oboe player was producing ?

I hope their additional Oboe sounds much better.

Sorry VSL, I can only praise you when you do it right, this one is a big screw up.

** Shouldn't this be discussed in the Synchron Woodwinds Thread ? here is the link :

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/vsl-synchron-woodwinds-released.116844/page-36


----------



## Jack Weaver

muziksculp said:


> ** Shouldn't this be discussed in the Synchron Woodwinds Thread ? here is the link :
> 
> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/vsl-synchron-woodwinds-released.116844/page-36


I would think so. It'd be nice to discuss Synchron Elite Strings here. 

.


----------



## muziksculp

Jack Weaver said:


> I would think so. It'd be nice to discuss Synchron Elite Strings here.
> 
> .


Yes, I agree. That's why I added the link to discuss VSL Synchron Woodwinds in the proper thread.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Just picked up Elite Strings, very impressed. Pristine tone and excellent programming. I need to get used to the key-switching, but that's ok.


----------



## Zanshin

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Just picked up Elite Strings, very impressed. Pristine tone and excellent programming. I need to get used to the key-switching, but that's ok.


... and learn all the fancy stuff you can do with the Synchron Player. I was just setting up new track presets for Cubase for these. One tip for you to try, I like to map velocity to attack. Go to the Auto-Speed art, then for both Legato and Legato Agile drag the "Soft Attack" to the top like in the screenshot. Change the controller just under the "Attack" header to an unused Dimension controller, I used "H" in the screenshot. Map "H" to velocity in the same column. Don't care about attacks? Have velocity switch to Portamento or whatever 






Anyway - congrats


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Zanshin said:


> ... and learn all the fancy stuff you can do with the Synchron Player. I was just setting up new track presets for Cubase for these. One tip for you to try, I like to map velocity to attack. Go to the Auto-Speed art, then for both Legato and Legato Agile drag the "Soft Attack" to the top like in the screenshot. Change the controller just under the "Attack" header to an unused Dimension controller, I used "H" in the screenshot. Map "H" to velocity in the same column. Don't care about attacks? Have velocity switch to Portamento or whatever
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway - congrats


Cool! I need to read the manual, lots to learn here. If I can map velocity to portamento, that is a huge bonus!


----------



## branshen

Zanshin said:


> ... and learn all the fancy stuff you can do with the Synchron Player. I was just setting up new track presets for Cubase for these. One tip for you to try, I like to map velocity to attack. Go to the Auto-Speed art, then for both Legato and Legato Agile drag the "Soft Attack" to the top like in the screenshot. Change the controller just under the "Attack" header to an unused Dimension controller, I used "H" in the screenshot. Map "H" to velocity in the same column. Don't care about attacks? Have velocity switch to Portamento or whatever
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway - congrats


Mapping velocity to attack makes perfect sense to me. Thanks for the tip! I got Elite strings (standard) recently too and am very impressed by the whole system and sound. I'm a convert!


----------



## JTB

Overall, they are very nice. However, there are actually a few timing and velocity issues with the staccatos, namely, Cellos E2 Staccato Short. I informed VSL two months ago but no update yet.

View attachment Issues.mp3


----------



## stigc56

Zanshin said:


> ... and learn all the fancy stuff you can do with the Synchron Player. I was just setting up new track presets for Cubase for these. One tip for you to try, I like to map velocity to attack. Go to the Auto-Speed art, then for both Legato and Legato Agile drag the "Soft Attack" to the top like in the screenshot. Change the controller just under the "Attack" header to an unused Dimension controller, I used "H" in the screenshot. Map "H" to velocity in the same column. Don't care about attacks? Have velocity switch to Portamento or whatever
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway - congrats


That's a nice trick. But how come my window looks different from yours? The Auto-sp. slur??


----------



## Zanshin

stigc56 said:


> That's a nice trick. But how come my window looks different from yours? The Auto-sp. slur??


I'm not sure, there was an update for Elite that added Slur. Have you done the iLok conversion yet? That would include the update otherwise it's on the VSL site under e-Lic downloads. Post a screen shot of yours?


----------



## hayvel

Zanshin said:


> ... and learn all the fancy stuff you can do with the Synchron Player. I was just setting up new track presets for Cubase for these. One tip for you to try, I like to map velocity to attack. Go to the Auto-Speed art, then for both Legato and Legato Agile drag the "Soft Attack" to the top like in the screenshot. Change the controller just under the "Attack" header to an unused Dimension controller, I used "H" in the screenshot. Map "H" to velocity in the same column. Don't care about attacks? Have velocity switch to Portamento or whatever
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway - congrats


Hey Zanshin, have you managed to apply legato behavior to the attack articulation? I would love to create a live performance patch that allows for short/long/legato playing without cc or key triggers, by layering a short with a legato articulation, but last time I tried it didn't work. Is this what you did here?


----------



## Zanshin

hayvel said:


> Hey Zanshin, have you managed to apply legato behavior to the attack articulation? I would love to create a live performance patch that allows for short/long/legato playing without cc or key triggers, by layering a short with a legato articulation, but last time I tried it didn't work. Is this what you did here?


I think what you want to do is possible, although it might be complicated! What I did here was really simple as far as it is just minor edits to the stock patch. It is for the legato articulation.


----------



## hayvel

Zanshin said:


> I think what you want to do is possible, although it might be complicated! What I did here was really simple as far as it is just minor edits to the stock patch. It is for the legato articulation.


Okay I see. I could not manage to apply the behavior to the short articulation so that it won't retrigger on legato playing. I even put a request towards the VSL team to include the function but I think it went rather unnoticed :-D Such a shame, it would open up a different way of playing the instruments, more like e.g. with Aarons Infinite series. I wonder nobody seems to be interested in this.


----------



## Zanshin

hayvel said:


> Okay I see. I could not manage to apply the behavior to the short articulation so that it won't retrigger on legato playing. I even put a request towards the VSL team to include the function but I think it went rather unnoticed :-D Such a shame, it would open up a different way of playing the instruments, more like e.g. with Aarons Infinite series. I wonder nobody seems to be interested in this.


Oh ok. I think I understand what you want to do. I'm not sure it's possible with what we have access to. Something like the marcato/sfz attack legato patches?


----------



## DaddyO

Zanshin said:


> ... and learn all the fancy stuff you can do with the Synchron Player. I was just setting up new track presets for Cubase for these. One tip for you to try, I like to map velocity to attack. Go to the Auto-Speed art, then for both Legato and Legato Agile drag the "Soft Attack" to the top like in the screenshot. Change the controller just under the "Attack" header to an unused Dimension controller, I used "H" in the screenshot. Map "H" to velocity in the same column. Don't care about attacks? Have velocity switch to Portamento or whatever
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway - congrats


That's an interesting approach for controlling attacks. Have you done the same for the shorts, dragging "Agile" to the top spot ahead of "Bold" under Attack?


----------



## Zanshin

DaddyO said:


> That's an interesting approach for controlling attacks. Have you done the same for the shorts, dragging "Agile" to the top spot ahead of "Bold" under Attack?


I have not messed with those. @Ben explained when you should use one over the other, but I can't remember what he said.


----------



## Ben

Zanshin said:


> I have not messed with those. @Ben explained when you should use one over the other, but I can't remember what he said.


Agile - Agile lines / runs
Bold - polyphonic material like chords, or short notes with air between them.

Bold is a little bit slower in attack for the first note of a pitch during repetitions. Agile on the otehr hand skips the first notes even if the pitch changes.


----------



## DaddyO

Ben said:


> Agile - Agile lines / runs
> Bold - polyphonic material like chords, or short notes with air between them.
> 
> Bold is a little bit slower in attack for the first note of a pitch during repetitions. Agile on the otehr hand skips the first notes even if the pitch changes.


That helps, thanks.


----------



## hayvel

Zanshin said:


> Oh ok. I think I understand what you want to do. I'm not sure it's possible with what we have access to. Something like the marcato/sfz attack legato patches?


Exactly, but that one is limited to a marcato start and does not work for faster repetitions. It's close but not close enough, so your comment made me hope you had maybe found a way to do this... 😉 anyway, don't want to derail the thread.


----------



## Zanshin

hayvel said:


> Exactly, but that one is limited to a marcato start and does not work for faster repetitions. It's close but not close enough, so your comment made me hope you had maybe found a way to do this... 😉 anyway, don't want to derail the thread.


I tend to not want to change stuff too much from stock incase I need to rebuild a preset (like if they issue an update for the library). But yeah I explored doing something similar for Synchron Brass. In the end Syz Dimension Brass mostly does what I want without much fuss so these days I primarily use that.


----------



## PeterMaze

I bought Elite Strings yesterday, and been testing it since. I like the sound generally, but came across some alarming issues with the vibrato Xfades (i wonder if some people reported this lib to sound nasal because of this), and some odd jumping around in velocity/loudness:


----------



## Ben

PeterMaze said:


> some odd jumping around in velocity/loudness


Use the Soft Attack variation only for longer notes at beginning of a connected line. If you instead switch to the Normal Attack variant you should not experience these jumps.



PeterMaze said:


> came across some alarming issues with the vibrato Xfades


Avoid the 50% area of vibrato crossfades. If you follow the automation curve in the screenshot with the audio demo you will notice that the issue appears when CC20 is set around 50%.


----------



## Casiquire

hayvel said:


> Okay I see. I could not manage to apply the behavior to the short articulation so that it won't retrigger on legato playing. I even put a request towards the VSL team to include the function but I think it went rather unnoticed :-D Such a shame, it would open up a different way of playing the instruments, more like e.g. with Aarons Infinite series. I wonder nobody seems to be interested in this.


Is there any way to control the shorts by velocity instead, so they trigger when you hit a key harder and you don't hear them when you press more softly? Then you could just use a higher velocity for shorts and lower velocity for legatos. I'm not terribly familiar with Synchron, but I have done that kind of thing plenty of times with their old VI player. You could even make that velocity threshold fairly low like in the 20s that way you still have a wide dynamic range in the shorts.

You'd also have the benefit of hitting a key harder during a legato transition to get an accent on particular notes.


----------



## PeterMaze

Ben, thanks for your quick reply, but unfortunately it didn't really help with the phasing issue (vibrato setting at about 20-25%):


----------



## Ben

PeterMaze said:


> Ben, thanks for your quick reply, but unfortunately it didn't really help with the phasing issue (vibrato setting at about 20-25%):


Please PM me the DAW project file, I'll check it out.


----------



## Ben

Casiquire said:


> Is there any way to control the shorts by velocity instead, so they trigger when you hit a key harder and you don't hear them when you press more softly? Then you could just use a higher velocity for shorts and lower velocity for legatos. I'm not terribly familiar with Synchron, but I have done that kind of thing plenty of times with their old VI player. You could even make that velocity threshold fairly low like in the 20s that way you still have a wide dynamic range in the shorts.
> 
> You'd also have the benefit of hitting a key harder during a legato transition to get an accent on particular notes.


Sure, just disable Velocity Crossgrade per slot:






Btw, the "VelXF sus" instrument presets have this already set up - sustained notes are controlled by Modwheel, shorts by key velocity. The VelXF presets allow to control the shorts via Modwheel.


----------



## Casiquire

Ben said:


> Sure, just disable Velocity Crossgrade per slot:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Btw, the "VelXF sus" instrument presets have this already set up - sustained notes are controlled by Modwheel, shorts by key velocity. The VelXF presets allow to control the shorts via Modwheel.


To be clear, I'm not referring to a simple velocity shorts patch. I'm referring to a blended patch in response to @hayvel trying to make a "performance" patch where short notes only trigger during short, unconnected playing, and legatos trigger during smooth connected playing, all in the same patch with no keyswitches.


----------



## Ben

PeterMaze said:


> Ben, thanks for your quick reply, but unfortunately it didn't really help with the phasing issue (vibrato setting at about 20-25%):


Thanks for the file. I have checked that, and I think I was able to identify the problem: 
Each slot has independend Velocity Crossfade curves, so if these run out of sync you will get this effect.
Solution: I would recommend to turn off "Humanize Amount" (CC 27) for parts where you use vibrato crossfade.


----------



## PeterMaze

Ben said:


> Thanks for the file. I have checked that, and I think I was able to identify the problem:
> Each slot has independend Velocity Crossfade curves, so if these run out of sync you will get this effect.
> Solution: I would recommend to turn off "Humanize Amount" (CC 27) for parts where you use vibrato crossfade.


Fixed it! Thank you 
so, any recommendations about the humanize feature on how and when to use it?


----------



## Ben

PeterMaze said:


> Fixed it! Thank you
> so, any recommendations about the humanize feature on how and when to use it?


Unless you crossfade between slots you should not have any troubles with it. It's a great feature that allows to add a randomnes in tuning and delay - check out the other two humanize fader.


----------



## Craig Allen

I was recording with Elite Strings this weekend within Studio One (latest version).
Somehow, recording a single instance (whether cellos or violins) using Velocity X-fade was hitting 100% of CPU power and causing glitching! I raised buffers from 64 to 128 to 256, without improvement. I tried all overload protection settings. No difference. I eliminated the room mic to get some headroom (then using only solo and mids mics). Once I turned off Velocity X-fade, my CPU settings went down to 30-40% (still crazy high for single usage).

Then I had a Studio One export problem. Studio One could render midi to audio for all my non-VSL tracks. But each of my Elite Strings tracks would bring an error (unable to process) whether trying to convert to audio or simply trying to export as an audio track. I was able, for whatever reason to export multiple tracks as a single orchestral stem. 

This is all while utilizing (for the first time) a complex template in Studio One that I've put dozens of hours into. I have not shifted yet from the Vienna key to iLok. 

I will try to make some time this week to run some tests, even on 2 systems. 
But, wondering if anyone has any idea what was going on for me (with either the CPU max problem from a single VSTI) or from the render problem.


----------



## muziksculp

Craig Allen said:


> I was recording with Elite Strings this weekend within Studio One (latest version).
> Somehow, recording a single instance (whether cellos or violins) using Velocity X-fade was hitting 100% of CPU power and causing glitching! I raised buffers from 64 to 128 to 256, without improvement. I tried all overload protection settings. No difference. I eliminated the room mic to get some headroom (then using only solo and mids mics). Once I turned off Velocity X-fade, my CPU settings went down to 30-40% (still crazy high for single usage).
> 
> Then I had a Studio One export problem. Studio One could render midi to audio for all my non-VSL tracks. But each of my Elite Strings tracks would bring an error (unable to process) whether trying to convert to audio or simply trying to export as an audio track. I was able, for whatever reason to export multiple tracks as a single orchestral stem.
> 
> This is all while utilizing (for the first time) a complex template in Studio One that I've put dozens of hours into. I have not shifted yet from the Vienna key to iLok.
> 
> I will try to make some time this week to run some tests, even on 2 systems.
> But, wondering if anyone has any idea what was going on for me (with either the CPU max problem from a single VSTI) or from the render problem.


I just tested VSL Synchron Elite Strings Legato Violins 1 in S1Pro 5, PC/Windows 10, and it uses barely 2% CPU. Something is causing this crazy high CPU usage in your DAW, and it's most likely not Synchron Elite Strings. I'm using iLok2 license.


----------



## Zanshin

Craig Allen said:


> I was recording with Elite Strings this weekend within Studio One (latest version).
> Somehow, recording a single instance (whether cellos or violins) using Velocity X-fade was hitting 100% of CPU power and causing glitching! I raised buffers from 64 to 128 to 256, without improvement. I tried all overload protection settings. No difference. I eliminated the room mic to get some headroom (then using only solo and mids mics). Once I turned off Velocity X-fade, my CPU settings went down to 30-40% (still crazy high for single usage).
> 
> Then I had a Studio One export problem. Studio One could render midi to audio for all my non-VSL tracks. But each of my Elite Strings tracks would bring an error (unable to process) whether trying to convert to audio or simply trying to export as an audio track. I was able, for whatever reason to export multiple tracks as a single orchestral stem.
> 
> This is all while utilizing (for the first time) a complex template in Studio One that I've put dozens of hours into. I have not shifted yet from the Vienna key to iLok.
> 
> I will try to make some time this week to run some tests, even on 2 systems.
> But, wondering if anyone has any idea what was going on for me (with either the CPU max problem from a single VSTI) or from the render problem.


Try increasing your preload (by a good bit).


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## madfloyd

I don't have any issues with Elite Strings either; I was just using them today.


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## Petrucci

No problems with ES on Elicenser in Logic Pro on 5.1 Mac Pro playing live with Surround to Stereo Wide preset, so lots of mics at the same time..!


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## Craig Allen

Zanshin said:


> Try increasing your preload (by a good bit).


I guess I'm not sure what "preload" is. Can you clarify?


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## Craig Allen

muziksculp said:


> I just tested VSL Synchron Elite Strings Legato Violins 1 in S1Pro 5, PC/Windows 10, and it uses barely 2% CPU. Something is causing this crazy high CPU usage in your DAW, and it's most likely not Synchron Elite Strings. I'm using iLok2 license.


That seems to be more in line with my prior experiences as well (though it's been a little while). So, it must be something about my template.
Hmmm...


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## muziksculp

Craig Allen said:


> That seems to be more in line with my prior experiences as well (though it's been a little while). So, it must be something about my template.
> Hmmm...


Yup. That's my guess. 

Can you test Elite Strings in an empty song ? Not within your template.


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## Craig Allen

I've had no issues previously with Elite Strings or with any VSL product with Studio One. This is an odd anomaly. 
But yes, I'll test it again in a new song and see if all is good.


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## Zanshin

Craig Allen said:


> I guess I'm not sure what "preload" is. Can you clarify?








Settings | VSL - Software Manuals







www.vsl.info


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## Saxer

Is the drive with the VSL samples excluded from Windows virus scan?


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## Craig Allen

Saxer said:


> Is the drive with the VSL samples excluded from Windows virus scan?


yes.


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## Craig Allen

Okay --- Thank you all for chiming in... I've run some tests this evening. Here's what I've found.
My tests are both from the Standalone version (so no Studio One involved), and within Studio One on a New Song with 1 track, loaded with 1 instance of Synchron Player with Elite Strings -- 1st Violins. At default settings.

(Windows 10, 21H1, custom-built PC with no known issues: i7 9700k, 64 GB RAM, Radeon 560.)

*When I play Short Notes: Detache>Normal Attack (Vel X-fade Off)*
- Synchron CPU Meter: starts at 2%, normal play at 5-6%, smearing notes: up to 9%
- Studio One Performance Monitor: starts at 8%, normal play at 12%, smearing notes: up to 20%.
- Windows Task Manager CPU: Starts at 7-10%, normal play 10-13%, smearing notes: 11-13%.

*When I play Long Notes: Vibrato XF On. Regular Vibrato (Vel. XF Off)*
- Synchron CPU Meter: starts at 2%, normal play at 5-7%, smearing notes: up to 15+%
- Studio One Performance Monitor: starts at 8%, normal play 14-22%, smearing notes: up to 30+%.
- Windows Task Manager CPU: Starts at 7-10%, normal play 10-13%, smearing notes: 14%.

*When I play Long Notes: Vibrato XF On. Regular Vibrato (Vel. XF ON)*
- Synchron CPU Meter: starts at 2%, normal play at 6-8%, smearing notes: up to 30+%
- Studio One Performance Monitor: starts at 7-8%, normal play 14-22%, smearing notes: up to 70+%. (And then occasionally hits red -- i.e. peaks in a moment to 100%)
- Windows Task Manager CPU: Starts at 7-10%, normal play 11-14%, smearing notes: up to 17%.

*So, a few things I'm noting:*
1. It's not related to my Template.
2. Playing fast notes on Short Notes settings remains quite efficient.
3. Long notes with Vel XF ON consume a bit more of resources in normal playing.
4. The only real "problem" is my bad technique -- of smearing my notes playing fast notes on LONG note settings.
5. The Real CPU usage is never a problem (as far as Windows reports). And the Synchron CPU usage is never really a problem. However, the Studio One Performance Monitor somehow overloads (gets flooded?) with smearing of fast played notes if using a Long Notes setting.

So, this seems to be a *problem combo of bad technique + wrong patch (for intended usage) + Studio One data flooding. *

Open to other suggestions or interpretations.

Meanwhile, *VSL/Synchron/Elite Strings is in the clear!*

(By the way: My Preload size was 3072. Resetting it reset it to... wait for it... 3072. With no noticeable difference.)

Edit: I misremembered the advice as "reset the preload". Actually I see now it was "increase the preload a good deal ". Any recommendations for how high?

I still have the Synchron track rendering issue to pursue...


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## hayvel

Casiquire said:


> To be clear, I'm not referring to a simple velocity shorts patch. I'm referring to a blended patch in response to @hayvel trying to make a "performance" patch where short notes only trigger during short, unconnected playing, and legatos trigger during smooth connected playing, all in the same patch with no keyswitches.


That describes very well what I was after. Your suggestion for using velocity is a compromise, but you lose one 'dimension' of control that could otherwise be used e.g. to switch between legato/portamento and add more expression. It is also hard to control and would not really feel natural, to me at least.


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## Zanshin

Craig Allen said:


> (By the way: My Preload size was 3072. Resetting it reset it to... wait for it... 3072. With no noticeable difference.)


Try changing it to a much larger value, not reset it. Try 8192 or higher and see if there is any change.


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## PeterMaze

I really liked the idea of using Velocity to control 'Attack'. I started programming it, then I noticed that a few patches have no 'soft attack', only Normal, Fast and Marc.
My guess, that this is a bug? Is there a way I can replace one of the 'normal' tiles with a soft one?


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## Piotrek K.

hayvel said:


> I would love to create a live performance patch that allows for short/long/legato playing without cc or key triggers, by layering a short with a legato articulation, but last time I tried it didn't work.


I actually did something like that with VI (doable with synchron player as well), short and sustain patch was set to mix (not crossfade), short one controlled via velocity, sustain via CC1. With that you can control sustain part with CC and attack with velocity. Going with CC down to 1 gives you mostly short note with some bleed from sustain though as VSL in most cases, as far as I tested, do not go to niente.


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## holywilly

PeterMaze said:


> I really liked the idea of using Velocity to control 'Attack'. I started programming it, then I noticed that a few patches have no 'soft attack', only Normal, Fast and Marc.
> My guess, that this is a bug? Is there a way I can replace one of the 'normal' tiles with a soft one?


You can copy soft portamento slot and paste to the desired slot. The first note is soft attack, then the sequel is portamento.


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## PeterMaze

holywilly said:


> You can copy soft portamento slot and paste to the desired slot. The first note is soft attack, then the sequel is portamento.


Thanks, that worked. Since (as far as I understand) attack is only considered for the first note in a legato line, I think this setup would make sense to control legato phrasing (see below). What do you think?


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## holywilly

PeterMaze said:


> Thanks, that worked. Since (as far as I understand) attack is only considered for the first note in a legato line, I think this setup would make sense to control legato phrasing (see below). What do you think?


This totally work! Please check PM, I’ve sent you my preset.


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## Craig Allen

Zanshin said:


> Try changing it to a much larger value, not reset it. Try 8192 or higher and see if there is any change.


Thank you. Will try.


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## Craig Allen

Craig Allen said:


> Thank you. Will try.


Zanshin said:
Try changing it to a much larger value, not reset it. Try 8192 or higher and see if there is any change.

Hey, this changed everything! Dramatic difference. Problem solved.
Thank you!


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## Zanshin

Craig Allen said:


> Zanshin said:
> Try changing it to a much larger value, not reset it. Try 8192 or higher and see if there is any change.
> 
> Hey, this changed everything! Dramatic difference. Problem solved.
> Thank you!


Awesome


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## MrGolang

Hi guys, 
Originally I wanted to buy TSS because of Kontakt and the lookahead and the sound and detail. But after listening to the demos of Elite Strings, and what felt like 50 videos later, I decided to go with Elite Strings.
However, I currently only have the standard version and wanted to ask if you think the full version is really worth it.
I would also like to know more about your workflow and how you record your parts.

Another thing I noticed is that Elite Strings is very quiet by default, I have to turn up the output really high most of the time, is it normal?


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## Rudianos

MrGolang said:


> Hi guys,
> Originally I wanted to buy TSS because of Kontakt and the lookahead and the sound and detail. But after listening to the demos of Elite Strings, and what felt like 50 videos later, I decided to go with Elite Strings.
> However, I currently only have the standard version and wanted to ask if you think the full version is really worth it.
> I would also like to know more about your workflow and how you record your parts.
> 
> Another thing I noticed is that Elite Strings is very quiet by default, I have to turn up the output really high most of the time, is it normal?


It is quiet. Crank it up. Master to 127! 71 not going to cut it LOL ... Do try the mixer presets to find one you may like. Classic is volume minus in many mics, and what does it default to only room mix? ... And yes between the Ribbons and Surrounds in Pro ... it can get very warm and very big! Worth it


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## MrGolang

Rudianos said:


> It is quiet. Crank it up. Master to 127! 71 not going to cut it LOL ... Do try the mixer presets to find one you may like... And yes between the Ribbons and Surrounds in Pro ... it can get very warm and very big! Worth it


Thank you for your response.

All right, I was afraid that some setting I overlooked was causing the low volume level.
Good, I was already 80% sure that I would buy the full version.
I think that I should look more closely at the VSL player and the possibilities to optimize my workflow.
I am not a good keyboard player, so I always record short passages and use the expression maps that are supplied for cubase to change the articulations. Surely that's not the right or optimal way to record everything and legatos is it?


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## Rudianos

MrGolang said:


> Thank you for your response.
> 
> All right, I was afraid that some setting I overlooked was causing the low volume level.
> Good, I was already 80% sure that I would buy the full version.
> I think that I should look more closely at the VSL player and the possibilities to optimize my workflow.
> I am not a good keyboard player, so I always record short passages and use the expression maps that are supplied for cubase to change the articulations. Surely that's not the right or optimal way to record everything and legatos is it?


Well the right way is whatever gives results. But with these synchron strings there's many legatos and many attacks and releases. Subtle and great differences to add realism. Do not know too much about expression maps, if they cover that many varieties?


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## Marcus Millfield

MrGolang said:


> Surely that's not the right or optimal way to record everything and legatos is it?


There is no right or optimal way. If this works for you, it works for you. I play stuff in using a long or legato patch and change articulations afterwards. I use Synchron Players VelFX for dynamics, so use my expression pedal while playing.


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## Petrucci

MrGolang said:


> Hi guys,
> Originally I wanted to buy TSS because of Kontakt and the lookahead and the sound and detail. But after listening to the demos of Elite Strings, and what felt like 50 videos later, I decided to go with Elite Strings.
> However, I currently only have the standard version and wanted to ask if you think the full version is really worth it.
> I would also like to know more about your workflow and how you record your parts.
> 
> Another thing I noticed is that Elite Strings is very quiet by default, I have to turn up the output really high most of the time, is it normal?



I always put Elite Strings and SSPro +6db with Logic's fader!) Additional mics give more sense of space to the sound, so I always use Surround To Stereo Wide Mixpreset.


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## Ben

Personally I prefer using keyswitches in Cubase, or if working in StudioOne SoundVariation. 
But whatever gives you the desired results is fine. It's also OK to change the articulation structure and/or to remove variations or articulations you don't need. In this case you have to create your own Expression Maps / edit the provided ones, if you want to keep working with them. 
By the way: it's also possible to switch articulations via CC, velocity, speed, or aftertouch; the Synchron Player is highly customizable!


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## Ben

Regarding the volume: all Synchron Libraries are volume matched via the master volume, so they will sound right when used together. Of course, if you work with 3rd party libraries this will not match, so you have to change the volume of the other libraries to match the Synchron ones, or vice versa. 
It's also not a bad idea to have an overhead of approx. - 10dB on the mix bus, so you will not have distortions when mixing in more libraries or when mixing/mastering. During programming this can be easily compensated by turning up the output volume of the soundcard or the mix bus volume in the DAW.


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## MrGolang

Thanks for all the information, I appreciate it very much.


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## dunamisstudio

I have standard as well. But reading the forum, lot of people recommend getting full version for this one.


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## fakemaxwell

Ben said:


> By the way: it's also possible to switch articulations via CC, velocity, speed, or aftertouch; the Synchron Player is highly customizable!


One day maybe it can switch with MIDI channel? 😇😇😇


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## gtrwll

MrGolang said:


> Hi guys,
> Originally I wanted to buy TSS because of Kontakt and the lookahead and the sound and detail. But after listening to the demos of Elite Strings, and what felt like 50 videos later, I decided to go with Elite Strings.


That is exactly where I’m at at the moment. Before release I was absolutely sure I’d get TSS, but I hesitated and now that I’m re-evaluating my options, there’s something about it that doesn’t sound quite right to my ears. Therefore I’ve had my eyes on Synchron Elite Strings, and wondering which version to get. Has VSL always had the back to school sale at September-ish? I could get a bit better deal from that, and maybe go for the full set if the extra mics are really worth the price difference.


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

fakemaxwell said:


> One day maybe it can switch with MIDI channel? 😇😇😇


Why would you want that? Seems like it's not necessary no? You want to load the same player on 2 different track?


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## MrGolang

gtrwll said:


> That is exactly where I’m at at the moment. Before release I was absolutely sure I’d get TSS, but I hesitated and now that I’m re-evaluating my options, there’s something about it that doesn’t sound quite right to my ears. Therefore I’ve had my eyes on Synchron Elite Strings, and wondering which version to get. Has VSL always had the back to school sale at September-ish? I could get a bit better deal from that, and maybe go for the full set if the extra mics are really worth the price difference.


I absolutely understand what you mean.
Well, I am absolutely satisfied with the sound of Elite Strings. You have the detail due to the number of players, their high skill level and the way the recordings were made, and yet you can also create a big sound.
TSS Hypes how japanese players are known for this and that but i am sure the Elite Strings players are among the best and you can hear it. I think you need such elite players to get this dry, clean and top notch samples so consistently.
The articulation is top notch and all the transitions are brilliant.
I recorded several midi runs and tested different strings I had against each other and Elite Strings eats them all for breakfast.

(Edit, Not bashing any other string library here, just my view and the other strings were not among the top picks and recommendations.)

I've been playing with the new full version mics all day today and love the combinations you get with them.
My recommendation would be first to buy standard, if you are satisfied with the sound of the microphones, then leave it at that, you can always upgrade.
I think i am a fan of vsl now.
Servus.


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## gtrwll

MrGolang said:


> I absolutely understand what you mean.
> Well, I am absolutely satisfied with the sound of Elite Strings. You have the detail due to the number of players, their high skill level and the way the recordings were made, and yet you can also create a big sound.
> TSS Hypes how japanese players are known for this and that but i am sure the Elite Strings players are among the best and you can hear it. I think you need such elite players to get this dry, clean and top notch samples so consistently.
> The articulation is top notch and all the transitions are brilliant.
> I recorded several midi runs and tested different strings I had against each other and Elite Strings eats them all for breakfast.
> 
> (Edit, Not bashing any other string library here, just my view and the other strings were not among the top picks and recommendations.)
> 
> I've been playing with the new full version mics all day today and love the combinations you get with them.
> My recommendation would be first to buy standard, if you are satisfied with the sound of the microphones, then leave it at that, you can always upgrade.
> I think i am a fan of vsl now.
> Servus.


Thanks, that’s a good advice!


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## Jeremy Spencer

MrGolang said:


> I absolutely understand what you mean.
> Well, I am absolutely satisfied with the sound of Elite Strings. You have the detail due to the number of players, their high skill level and the way the recordings were made, and yet you can also create a big sound.
> TSS Hypes how japanese players are known for this and that but i am sure the Elite Strings players are among the best and you can hear it. I think you need such elite players to get this dry, clean and top notch samples so consistently.
> The articulation is top notch and all the transitions are brilliant.
> I recorded several midi runs and tested different strings I had against each other and Elite Strings eats them all for breakfast.
> 
> (Edit, Not bashing any other string library here, just my view and the other strings were not among the top picks and recommendations.)
> 
> I've been playing with the new full version mics all day today and love the combinations you get with them.
> My recommendation would be first to buy standard, if you are satisfied with the sound of the microphones, then leave it at that, you can always upgrade.
> I think i am a fan of vsl now.
> Servus.


How are you liking the legato transitions in Elite? Just curious on your perspective.


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## MrGolang

Jeremy Spencer said:


> How are you liking the legato transitions in Elite? Just curious on your perspective.


I'm quite satisfied so far, once I had a very high CPU load, but I forgot which combination of microphones and legato had caused that, I was able to fix it quickly, that caused brief dropouts and strange noises.

The different possibilities to play legato I find great.
I had to warm up to the player first, I haven't gone through the whole manual yet.
I'll be traveling to Berlin on a business trip starting tomorrow, once I get home on Thursday I'll be happy to do some test recordings.


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## Petrucci

Ben said:


> Personally I prefer using keyswitches in Cubase, or if working in StudioOne SoundVariation.
> But whatever gives you the desired results is fine. It's also OK to change the articulation structure and/or to remove variations or articulations you don't need. In this case you have to create your own Expression Maps / edit the provided ones, if you want to keep working with them.
> By the way: it's also possible to switch articulations via CC, velocity, speed, or aftertouch; the Synchron Player is highly customizable!


BTW, Ben, I always use Surround To Stereo Mixpresets and I found that usually my Synchron Woodwinds are 9,6db quieter than Elite Strings and SSPro (except Woodwinds Ensembles - those are 14db quiter) to make realistic cohesive sound like I hear it..! Is it too drastic? Synchron Brass Ensembles are usually 4db quieter than strings and Percussion usually varies quite a bit depending on the instrument. Or am I too Strings-centric?)))


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## Ben

Petrucci said:


> BTW, Ben, I always use Surround To Stereo Mixpresets and I found that usually my Synchron Woodwinds are 9,6db quiter than Elite Strings and SSPro (except Woodwinds Ensembles - those are 14db quiter) to make realistic cohesive sound like I hear it..! Is it too drastic? Synchron Brass Ensembles are usually 4db quiter than strings and Percussion usually varies quite a bit depending on the instrument. Or am I too Strings-centric?)))


Of course, this also depends on your arrangement / orchestration. As long as it sounds good there is nothing against this.


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## Craig Allen

Ben said:


> Regarding the volume: all Synchron Libraries are volume matched via the master volume, so they will sound right when used together. Of course, if you work with 3rd party libraries this will not match, so you have to change the volume of the other libraries to match the Synchron ones, or vice versa.
> It's also not a bad idea to have an overhead of approx. - 10dB on the mix bus, so you will not have distortions when mixing in more libraries or when mixing/mastering. During programming this can be easily compensated by turning up the output volume of the soundcard or the mix bus volume in the DAW.


Ben, I understand that volume matching is the VSL claim, but I didn't find it to be the reality when testing my libraries. In my experience: each library I have was coherent within the library itself, but not in comparison to others. Anyone can do a simple test within a couple minutes to reveal what I mean.

Open up the Synchron Player. In succession, open the initial 1st violin sound. Play a note (i.e. C5 with your mouse -- so there is no variation in attack volume). I just did this again to jog my memory. Here's what I experience:

Synchron Strings 1: -22dB
Synchron Strings Pro: -24dB (2 dB softer)
Synchron Elite Strings: -28dB (6dB softer than SS1, 4dB softer than SSP)
Synchronized Special Editions (1&2): -30dB for both Chamber and Orchestral Violins. (8dB softer than SS1, 6dB softer than SSP, 2dB softer than SES.)

At one point I thought that maybe Elite Strings was softer because there are fewer players. Maybe it's a real-world adaptation (as 14 or 30 players should be louder than 4-6). But that wasn't the VSL claim, as I understood it. However, if that IS how it is meant to be understood, I wish that was clarified. But even still, why is SSP softer than SS1 with the same number of players? And why within SSE then are chamber violins and orch violins the same? And why are the orchestral strings even softer than Elite Strings?

Anyway, I wish the claim was true, but haven't found it to be in my limited experience.


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## Pixelpoet1985

Craig Allen said:


> Ben, I understand that volume matching is the VSL claim, but I didn't find it to be the reality when testing my libraries. In my experience: each library I have was coherent within the library itself, but not in comparison to others. Anyone can do a simple test within a couple minutes to reveal what I mean.
> 
> Open up the Synchron Player. In succession, open the initial 1st violin sound. Play a note (i.e. C5 with your mouse -- so there is no variation in attack volume). I just did this again to jog my memory. Here's what I experience:
> 
> Synchron Strings 1: -22dB
> Synchron Strings Pro: -24dB (2 dB softer)
> Synchron Elite Strings: -28dB (6dB softer than SS1, 4dB softer than SSP)
> Synchronized Special Editions (1&2): -30dB for both Chamber and Orchestral Violins. (8dB softer than SS1, 6dB softer than SSP, 2dB softer than SES.)
> 
> At one point I thought that maybe Elite Strings was softer because there are fewer players. Maybe it's a real-world adaptation (as 14 or 30 players should be louder than 4-6). But that wasn't the VSL claim, as I understood it. However, if that IS how it is meant to be understood, I wish that was clarified. But even still, why is SSP softer than SS1 with the same number of players? And why within SSE then are chamber violins and orch violins the same? And why are the orchestral strings even softer than Elite Strings?
> 
> Anyway, I wish the claim was true, but haven't found it to be in my limited experience.


Even though I'm also confused with some minor things, I think VSL did a very good job unifying all the instruments and articulations. If you look at the competition, you go crazy (sometimes).

You can't compare the Synchron recordings to the dry recordings of the VI / SYNCHRON-ized ones which only had one microphone (and this was closer to the instruments). The distance of the microphones is also important, that's why some instruments share the same volume drop, even though the sections sizes are different. So I won't go with the section sizes, even though a smaller section is indeed quieter. If you start combining various microphones in the Synchron Player the levels will change, too.

Concerning SSP: There were a lot of new recordings for this, and I think they just changed the volume of the articulations which had been taken over from SS1. Maybe SSP was recorded a bit more further away from the microphones. I don't know, just a guess here.


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## Craig Allen

But 4-6 dB within the Synchron series is substantial at default settings.
Sure, we can all make adjustments (to channel masters or mic mixes) and save templates to pre-balance.
I'm just noting that it is advertised as a feature that they are all pre-matched for level (which would be a gift, if true). I just have found it factually to not be. Elite Strings is demonstrably softer at default levels. It's not a deal-breaker; I love the Synchron Strings family. But, I don't understand why they perpetuate the claim. Surely they must experience the differences in their own internal usage.


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## Rudianos

Craig Allen said:


> But 4-6 dB within the Synchron series is substantial at default settings.
> Sure, we can all make adjustments (to channel masters or mic mixes) and save templates to pre-balance.
> I'm just noting that it is advertised as a feature that they are all pre-matched for level (which would be a gift, if true). I just have found it factually to not be. Elite Strings is demonstrably softer at default levels. It's not a deal-breaker; I love the Synchron Strings family. But, I don't understand why they perpetuate the claim. Surely they must experience the differences in their own internal usage.


Yeah. I found it very off putting initially too. There is no other library that at default settings that I have anyways that is so underwhelming in volume. And yes, no up front explanation - could really turn people off. Many of the Synchron shorts seemed so timid and lifeless. Slowly but surely finding the dream settings to get it workable.


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## Ricgus3

Is There a performance patch in the vsl strings?


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## smellypants

Craig Allen said:


> But 4-6 dB within the Synchron series is substantial at default settings.
> Sure, we can all make adjustments (to channel masters or mic mixes) and save templates to pre-balance.
> I'm just noting that it is advertised as a feature that they are all pre-matched for level (which would be a gift, if true). I just have found it factually to not be. Elite Strings is demonstrably softer at default levels. It's not a deal-breaker; I love the Synchron Strings family. But, I don't understand why they perpetuate the claim. Surely they must experience the differences in their own internal usage.


You mention in your post that your testing this by playing the note with your mouse on the Synchron keyboard right.

Are you aware that depending on where you press the key with your mouse, the volume/dynamic layer will be different.


----------

