# Please tell me about your healthcare.



## Studio E (Oct 11, 2010)

Hi everyone, I just watched "sicko" yesterday. I live in the US. Can those of you from other countries please tell me about your healthcare system and what you like/dislike about it? I'd just really like to know. Thanks.


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## Hannes_F (Oct 11, 2010)

Studio E @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> Hi everyone, I just watched "sicko" yesterday. I live in the US. Can those of you from other countries please tell me about your healthcare system and what you like/dislike about it? I'd just really like to know. Thanks.



You mean our personal situation?

I am privately insured, could choose between that and public insurance when beginning to be self-employed (but I needed to pick out of the two). I pay EUR 380 EUR per month plus a yearly socket of 400 EUR. For that get funded all medical treatment by doctors, dentists and health practitioners plus all eventual hospital costs. Dental protheses are only paid to 50 % and with certain restrictions. In the amount is a nursing care insurance included (this is also mandatory here in Germany).

If I were insured in a public health insurance the conditions would be similar except that the fee would be income dependant and without a socket (but other smaller costs like 10 EUR fee for any new doctor you consult per quarter of a year). Also most of these insurances would not pay health practitioners which is why I dedided to go for the private insurance.


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## Mike Greene (Oct 11, 2010)

I know you're just looking for thoughts from other countries, but for comparison purposes, my family (wife and one 14 year old son) pay $1,500 per month for health insurance (PPO rather than the cheaper HMO) with a $1,500 annual deductible for each of us and co-pays for everything. Meaning the three of us pay over $20,000 per year for health care.

Would my taxes really go up *that* much if our health care was nationalized or if we went to single payer? I really don't get the logic of people who think it should stay the way it is.


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## Studio E (Oct 11, 2010)

Thanks Hannes, and do you at all feel like your care is compromised? Is there any other expense that you could incur beyond what you pay goe the private insurance?


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## Studio E (Oct 11, 2010)

Mike, I agree. I am very fortunate to have recently gotten a new job where the insurance costs me very little but I know that if something happens to me or my family, we will sti be paying thousands in deductibles and other fees. Before this job, I was shelling out hundreds a month for insurance just for myself. I just want to get a feel for how others really feel about their own systems. 

Thanks


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## gsilbers (Oct 11, 2010)

wow mike, thats a lot coverage... now i am worry i dont have enough... 

i work for a studio and its around 130 per months and my wife 240. it is HMO just because UCLA medical groups accepts my HMO and UCLA medical center is 4th in the nation  
if not i would of gone w PPO. 

but you pay 500 each on your family per month? what made you choose that level of coverage? 
(anthem im guessing right?)


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## Hannes_F (Oct 11, 2010)

Studio E @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> Thanks Hannes, and do you at all feel like your care is compromised? Is there any other expense that you could incur beyond what you pay goe the private insurance?



Hi, I don't feel my care is compromised at all. Most important for me is the chiropractioner and that is fully funded. Health insurances regularly try to talk me into a luxury version of tariff that would be EUR 120 more per month and in exchange for that they would pay something like 80 % for dental protheses instead of 50 % and in the case of a hospital stay I would have free chief physician choice and single room. But I save the money and just happen to pay with pride the additional charge for a ceramic tooth crown from that money (my tariff excludes that but that seems to be a special case).


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## rgames (Oct 11, 2010)

Regarding healthcare in other countries: one thing that I've noticed is that people who can afford it tend to come to the US when they get really sick.

rgames


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## Mike Greene (Oct 11, 2010)

gsilbers @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> but you pay 500 each on your family per month? what made you choose that level of coverage?
> (anthem im guessing right?)


Ha! Yes, it's Anthem. :mrgreen: I hate that company.

I don't think our coverage is especially extravagant, but my wife and I aren't 30 years old anymore, and we're not part of any group coverage, which makes a huge difference. You do *not* want to get health insurance as an individual family, rather than part of a group. Plus, since it isn't HMO, it's more expensive. I'm not sure why we don't do HMO.

We tried applying through the Television Academy with Aetna and our rates would have been about half, but we couldn't get accepted because my son broke his foot in a bike accident. I kid you not. We could reapply in 6 months after it's determined the break healed properly (it was minor break, so of course it would,) but 5 months later, he sprained his wrist. So a new 6 month timer started. It's insane.

Oh, and he has minor acne (he's 14,) so being your typical Los Angeles family, rather than buy him a tube of Clearasil, we took him to a dermatologist. Big mistake. We had to get the dermatologist to sign off that it's minor and won't be some long term liability, blah, blah, blah.

We have the option of going with Kaiser through the Musicians' Union, but it's not that much cheaper. They don't reject anybody, no matter what pre-existing health conditions, so the rates are high. Almost as much as what I'm paying now, but without the option to see whatever doctors we want. The other reason their rates are comparatively high is because they don't differentiate between "kid" and "kids." So even though we only have one (healthy) son, we pay the same as we would if we had a dozen kids.


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## Studio E (Oct 11, 2010)

Thanks rgames, but this is a generalized statement. Do you know of specific examples? I am truly just asking as I'd lime to have personally representative answers. I'm so tired of hearing what bought-out media and politicians have to say. I just want to know how people feel. My grandma, now 88 lives in Canada and says she really likes her doctors and the system in general. 

I just cNt help but to feel that a huge injustice is being done to the American people but seeking the truth is no easy task. When it comes right down to it, I'd rather ask my neighbor than listen to the news.


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## David Story (Oct 11, 2010)

Yes, "Sicko" is funny and thought provoking. That opening story...
The French doc was smart and funny.

I work with a producer who has dual US-Canadian citizenship. He keeps his family health care Canadian. He tried the US private system a while back, and was concerned that the cost was so high. And basic services, like emergency care, could be denied by the insurance company.

There are waits for expensive procedures in Canada, but have you ever tried to see an expensive specialist in the US? There's wait here too.

Health benefits for composers could be an improvement; as Mike said, group rates are better.


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## Hannes_F (Oct 11, 2010)

rgames @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> Regarding healthcare in other countries: one thing that I've noticed is that people who can afford it tend to come to the US when they get really sick.



Or to Germany. It depends on where they live. There are coming a lot of sheiks with their families for treatment to Hannover.

One thing that I forgot: We have an artist's social fund here, and as a full time musician you need to pay into this funds plus everybody that books you is entitled to pay 2 % of the fee into it. This is your contribution for old age pension plus this funds pays 50 % of our health insurance (of the public insurance rate). So what you pay/get from/to this funds is more or less balanced but you get a certain (small) old age pension as a plus. This is only available for artists like musicians, actors, writers etc.


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## rgames (Oct 11, 2010)

JohnG @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> Mike Greene @ 11th October 2010 said:
> 
> 
> > I know you're just looking for thoughts from other countries, but for comparison purposes, my family (wife and one 14 year old son) pay $1,500 per month for health insurance (PPO rather than the cheaper HMO) with a $1,500 annual deductible for each of us and co-pays for everything. Meaning the three of us pay over $20,000 per year for health care.
> ...


Can't you guys get in on any group rates, like through AFM?

re: coming to America - yes, "those who can afford it" is the operative term. I bring that up to highlight the fact that we have excellent health care here in the states; what we need to do is figure out how to make it affordable.


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## Mike Greene (Oct 11, 2010)

rgames @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> Can't you guys get in on any group rates, like through AFM?


Golly, why didn't I think of that?

As I mentioned earlier, AFM does indeed have a group plan. I have the quote right here. For a family (spouse plus child(ren)) the rate is $1,627 per month. That's for Kaiser and that's the *only* plan they have.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, the Television Academy, to which I also belong, has a group plan. Cheaper, but they rejected us because . . . well, take a minute and read what I wrote earlier so everyone else doesn't have to hear me repeat myself.


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## cc64 (Oct 11, 2010)

Mike Greene @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> As I mentioned earlier, AFM does indeed have a group plan. I have the quote right here. For a family (spouse plus child(ren)) the rate is $1,627 per month. That's for Kaiser and that's the *only* plan they have.



Wow does that include prescription drugs or are they extra?

Here in Quebec, Canada, health care is paid for by our income taxes and regarding prescription meds, as musician's (freelance worker's) we pay a premium on our declaration once a year and the amount depends on how much money you make. So if you're having a bad year the amount is minimal... 200$ maybe even less...All your meds and health care are included and this even if you have to be operated in the US or anywhere else if you happen to fall sick while travelling. Caveat is that you have to pay from your pocket and then the government will refund you.

HTH

Claude


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## Animus (Oct 11, 2010)

Mike Greene @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> I know you're just looking for thoughts from other countries, but for comparison purposes, my family (wife and one 14 year old son) pay $1,500 per month for health insurance (PPO rather than the cheaper HMO) with a $1,500 annual deductible for each of us and co-pays for everything. Meaning the three of us pay over $20,000 per year for health care.
> 
> Would my taxes really go up *that* much if our health care was nationalized or if we went to single payer? I really don't get the logic of people who think it should stay the way it is.



No, your taxes probably wouldn't but someone else's would to pay for it. I am assuming you are self-employed? I work for a company and they pay most my healthcare--I pay about $120/mo for everything. I am sure my company pays about $10k a year for my coverage, and of course that is adjusted with group leverage. So it's not totally out of line with the coverage of your whole family. The difference is that you work for yourself and have your own company (assuming) and don't have as much group leverage as a bigger company. This has nothing to do with healthcare being broken in the US. It's simple supply and demand and risk assessment. This wouldn't change with government-run healthcare. Somebody will have to pay for it regardless. Should other companies and taxpayers subsidize your company? I guess it all is assuming how well one is doing self-employed. Healthcare is the cost of doing business. I believe in helping those that are poor and don't have jobs. But people that are working and making money? Well it's not fair some companies go under and are not as profitable as another. I think we should take some profits from another company and prop the failing company up.  Now what would you do over time if the government came and took some of your profits every quarter to give to some other joe blow composer because he was having a hard time? You'd get to buy less sample libraries or gear, hire less assistants, have to work more to make the same money etc; which in turn would affect other companies. Eventually, you'd say fuck it and close up shop. :D 

Wanting the government to control your health is insane. Do you trust Uncle Sam when it comes tax time? You think the IRS looks after your best interests if they audit you? Ever wait in long ass lines at the post office when there is one clerk waiting on people while 4 others are just milling about doing nothin? Do you love the experience of going to the DMV? I don't.


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## Mike Greene (Oct 11, 2010)

Animus @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> No, your taxes probably wouldn't but someone else's would to pay for it.


That's not my point. I'm not asking other people to subsidize my healthcare. In fact, since I make a pretty decent income, I would be paying for *more* than my share. That's fine by me.

My point is that our healthcare system as it is now is out of control in terms of cost. I think many people don't realize how out of control these costs are because their employers pay it, so they don't really see it or think of in terms of being *their* money that's being spent on healthcare. For example, right now, you seem fine with the idea that your employer spends $10k per year on your insurance. But what if he instead paid you that extra $10k and then you had to hand it right over to Anthem? I imagine you might start to think, "Hmmmmm . . . this is a hell of a lot of money I'm paying for health insurance!"

By the way, it's not like Anthem said, "Oh, Mike makes a lot of money so let's charge him $1,500 per month." They would charge *anyone* in my family's age bracket that same amount. Most families can't afford $20k per year. To me, that's a problem.


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## Animus (Oct 11, 2010)

Mike Greene @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> Animus @ Mon Oct 11 said:
> 
> 
> > No, your taxes probably wouldn't but someone else's would to pay for it.
> ...



I see what you saying. It's complicated though. One problem is people abuse the system to much. My Dad was telling me back in the day there was just Major Medical insurance. It covered you in case of major health problems or accidents etc. Nowadays people go to the hospital or emergency room with stubbed toes and the common cold. Any system is going to be overwhelmed by that.


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## Studio E (Oct 11, 2010)

It's such a big issue and it certainly has a steep divide between the two fronts. I really liked it when Michael Moore said (and I'm paraphrasing) "What have we become as a society that we let our sick go broke and in thousands of cases a year, die because of a for-profit system" That's it in a nut shell to me. I know that not everyone is always pulling their weight. I know that there are lots of people who are oblivious to the situation at hand. I know that I will be paying for more than my share. What could possibly be more devastating than losing your health and on top of that, knowing that it was going to break you for the rest of your life. This happens to people in the states everyday and it happens to the insured and non-insured alike. It ruins their lives and compromises their entire family, children included. The bottom line is, we dont take care of our own. Worst yet, we ARE paying for this system. Insurance companies have more liquid cash than any other corporations. Why, because they take our money religiously and only give back what they absolutely have to and many times after a long court case is fought while the plaintiff is dying. Yuck! Michael also points out that it's hard to understand this coming from the American people because we are a good people. We give ALL the time to each other. We should want to take care of each other. It's just that the "F**king insurance lobby is SO powerful that they've bought every law-maker ten times over to make sure that they keep getting rich. How many of you americans are thrilled to be giving your money to the same people that turn around and spend it on congressman and lobbyists just to f**k us out of our own money. And seriously, how much more would it cost than what we pay to private companies now to make this work? How much insurance company profit could be dumped into healing the sick instead of paying off the Right, the Left, The center, anyone they can. 

I am currently benefiting from working for a city government. I pay only $130 a month for family coverage that covers 6 people. I just got the job. I love the job but to be honest, I feel a little guilty having it so good. Dont get me wrong. I earned this job but the government already takes care of it's own employees this well. Why shouldn't we all be so fortunate. Just a pity really. I think we are like the last industrialized nation to not have national health care for it's people. We will look back at this 100 years from now and say "WTF were we doing?"


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## Mike Greene (Oct 11, 2010)

Animus @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> Nowadays people go to the hospital or emergency room with stubbed toes and the common cold. Any system is going to be overwhelmed by that.


Yes, but the mother brings her child with an ear infection (more likely than "stubbed toes and common colds") to the emergency room because she has no other place to go, since she can't afford health insurance. What *should* she do? Stay home and let her child cry in her bed while she tries to soothe her with tales of what wonderful health care we have here in the states?

I'm not trying to pick on you, but the DMV and even the Post Office aren't all that bad, by the way. At the DMV you can make appointments if you're smart, so it's pretty quick. Heck, they handle most things by mail or online and they even handle the smog stuff automatically. It's actually a pretty efficient operation when you think about it. It wasn't always, but it is now.

As far as the post office goes with the tired cliche of four people standing around while only one is working, I think the same observations could be made at FedEx or UPS or your local grocery store or pretty much any place. In fact, there's a FedEx hub only a block from here. At 6:00, which is their cutoff time, the doors close right on the dot and they make absolutely no exceptions. At the post office, on the other hand, they always stay open a few minutes past their closing time and if they've closed and see you running to the door with a letter to be mailed, they'll usually take it.


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## Animus (Oct 11, 2010)

Mike Greene @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> Animus @ Mon Oct 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Nowadays people go to the hospital or emergency room with stubbed toes and the common cold. Any system is going to be overwhelmed by that.
> ...




It's cliche because it's true! Happens to me all the time at my local post office branch. Seriously. They can get away with those things because they are taxpayer funded. Governemnt employees don't give a shit because there jobs are for the most part protected and it takes a lot to fire one. My wife used to work for the State Employees Library and I couldn't believe some of the shit that went on there. Fedex actually has to show a profit and works to be efficient. The USPS is basically bankrupt. Recently they tried to raise the cost of a stamp 3 cents if you didn't notice.  And last year they cut back my local branches office hours and they close at 2 pm weekdays and close weekends. lol That's a sign of a strong company.


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## synergy543 (Oct 11, 2010)

People have become confused over the concept of of insurance. The idea behind insurance is to create a pool of shared risk against major catastrophes that are beyond what an individual can afford. Now people expect insurance to pay not only for their health care but also medications.

If people payed for their own health care, they might be more selective about how they used it.

However, it is true its hard to see a doctor when you have a cold. They'll schedule you for an appointment in 3 weeks (what's the point?) or suggest you go in to urgent care. The system is pretty screwed up in more ways than one. Needs major surgery to fix at this point.


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## Studio E (Oct 11, 2010)

Yes Mike, thank you for reminding me of the other point I wanted to make. I went to the DMV just last week. I waited all of about 45 seconds before I was helped. I was back out the door in 5 minutes. My post office has some of the friendliest people I know working there and I never have to wait more than 5 minutes, often times not at all. My streets and highways take me where I need to go and are repaired every year after winter until the next winter. Lots of things in government work and work well. I am now a government employee and I take it seriously and with pride. I am paid by my community and I am going to serve that community as well as possible and with a smile to boot!


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## Studio E (Oct 11, 2010)

synergy543 @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> People have become confused over the concept of of insurance. The idea behind insurance is to create a pool of shared risk against major catastrophes that are beyond what an individual can afford. Now people expect insurance to pay not only for their health care but also medications.
> 
> If people payed for their own health care, they might be more selective about how they used it.
> 
> However, it is true its hard to see a doctor when you have a cold. They'll schedule you for an appointment in 3 weeks (what's the point?) or suggest you go in to urgent care. The system is pretty screwed up in more ways than one. Needs major surgery to fix at this point.



But the confusion starts with insurance companies selling you a piece of mind that doesn't exist. They make you believe you are going to be taken care of but then pull the rug out from under you. Also, you might keep in mind that insurance companies weren't created to help people. They were created to make money and that's what they do. They have loyalty to their share holders first and foremost.

Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKVLV9bR1bo


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## Animus (Oct 11, 2010)

Studio E @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> synergy543 @ Mon Oct 11 said:
> 
> 
> > People have become confused over the concept of of insurance. The idea behind insurance is to create a pool of shared risk against major catastrophes that are beyond what an individual can afford. Now people expect insurance to pay not only for their health care but also medications.
> ...



Was a car company created to help people? They exist to sell a product and make a profit. if they start making a bad product people catch on and don't buy.

That's where the free market comes in. If an insurance company continues to pull that shit their customer base will just go to another company.


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## synergy543 (Oct 11, 2010)

And drug company ads (how many billions?) telling you your eyes will pop out and your liver might decay....so ask your doctor if this new wonder drug is right for you!

@Studio E - nice music, makes a nice contrast!


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## Studio E (Oct 11, 2010)

Animus @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> Studio E @ Mon Oct 11 said:
> 
> 
> > synergy543 @ Mon Oct 11 said:
> ...



I understand what you are saying. I really do. But it's all too big and too confusing for anyone to decifer all of the different lingo, terms, and differences between companies and policies. Besides, most dont have a choice. It's what their employer provides or what they can afford AND it doesn't matter because they all pull this shit. I will have to say that I dont understand the whole thing of not letting people but insurance from different states as that might help stiffen the competition but still, we dont have that many choices. 

THat said, I do appreciate your side and I just want to gather as much info as possible. I want to understand how the other side sees it. I'm just too much of a humanitarian sometimes I suppose.


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## Animus (Oct 11, 2010)

Studio E @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> Animus @ Mon Oct 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Studio E @ Mon Oct 11 said:
> ...



yeah, it's a difficult issue. But it's a product just like any product. My company is always shopping for the best coverage for the money. Every year or two we seem to switch.


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## synergy543 (Oct 11, 2010)

This is the clip you should watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDHklw6P ... re=related


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## Studio E (Oct 11, 2010)

synergy543 @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> This is the clip you should watch:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDHklw6P ... re=related




Thanks.


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## David Story (Oct 11, 2010)

Physicians have an ancient duty to care for the sick, regardless of ability to pay. Recently, that has been replaced by the profit motive. Group insurance, pioneered by our own Charles Ives, began this process. It was a good idea, gone wrong. 

Healing the sick is a service to society, not a way to get rich. Except it's come to that. The answer is to make health care less profitable, so people go into the field to care for the sick. That's a respectable profession. 

Physicians have a monopoly on health care, it's a special life-or-death case. They need to have high standards, be shielded from profiteers, and their own worst instincts. Else "get rich or die trying" will have a new meaning.

Studio E, I think you have a normal concern for other people. It's big business that has a problem with not caring. Right now, there are no good, affordable health plans. Some improvements possible in 2014.


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## Animus (Oct 11, 2010)

David Story @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> Physicians have an ancient duty to care for the sick, regardless of ability to pay. Recently, that has been replaced by the profit motive. Group insurance, pioneered by our own Charles Ives, began this process. It was a good idea, gone wrong.
> 
> Healing the sick is a service to society, not a way to get rich. Except it's come to that. The answer is to make health care less profitable, so people go into the field to care for the sick. That's a respectable profession.
> 
> ...



People should have free music regardless of their ability to pay for it. Musicians and composers should do it because they love it, and if they have to live on the streets and go hungry then at least they are doing what they love and giving people the gift of music..

Those were the good ole days though. When they bled people and used leeches. Too bad money and competitiveness came along and brought science and medicine out of the dark ages. And yes by all means, make it less profitable. Surely if would attract all the best and brightest and you'd have a oversupply of quality doctors. We already see this in how much we pay our teachers but they do it because they love to teach and we have the best schools in the universe. :D


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## Studio E (Oct 12, 2010)

Yeah, I'm sorry but I dont buy it. Yes, drug manufacturers are all about making billions and therefore put a lot into R&D, but many of the best medical advances were made not to make someone rich, but to better things for mankind. THe creator of the polio vaccine GAVE away the formula. He didnt want to get rich, he wanted to help people. If you havent watched "Sicko", you really should just so you can see the other side. I'm not saying that things are perfect everywhere else but hey, everyone else seems to live longer everywhere else in the world and spends less on healthcare.


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## George Caplan (Oct 12, 2010)

Studio E @ Mon Oct 11 said:


> Hi everyone, I just watched "sicko" yesterday. I live in the US. Can those of you from other countries please tell me about your healthcare system and what you like/dislike about it? I'd just really like to know. Thanks.



my doctor is german and i am an american living currently in the uk. go figure.


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## JohnG (Oct 12, 2010)

In aggregate, the US spends more and gets worse outcomes. 



Studio E @ 11th October 2010 said:


> What could possibly be more devastating than losing your health and on top of that, knowing that it was going to break you for the rest of your life. This happens to people in the states everyday and it happens to the insured and non-insured alike. It ruins their lives and compromises their entire family, children included.



Studio E is 100% accurate. Hospitals may write off bills of those who can't pay, from an accounting point of view, but they sell those obligations to debt collectors, whose business it is to chase those people down, no matter what.

The number one cause of bankruptcy in the US is health bills, according to this 2005 Harvard study:

"Medical Bills Leading Cause of Bankruptcy, Harvard Study Finds

February 3, 2005 
Illness and medical bills caused half of the 1,458,000 personal bankruptcies in 2001, according to a study published by the journal Health Affairs.
The study estimates that medical bankruptcies affect about 2 million Americans annually -- counting debtors and their dependents, including about 700,000 children.

Surprisingly, most of those bankrupted by illness had health insurance. More than three-quarters were insured at the start of the bankrupting illness. However, 38 percent had lost coverage at least temporarily by the time they filed for bankruptcy.

Most of the medical bankruptcy filers were middle class; 56 percent owned a home and the same number had attended college. In many cases, illness forced breadwinners to take time off from work -- losing income and job-based health insurance precisely when families needed it most."

here's the URL: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2 ... study.html


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## Jaap (Oct 12, 2010)

I am living in the Netherlands and personally I think we have a great healthcare system here.

You have different packages - from basic to plus package. I am insured for the basic package, meaning I have all the basic rights for medical threatment covered everywhere in the world.
I pay around 110 euro a month for this package and if you don't earn enough money here you get gouvernment support (some really low incomes pay only around 30 or 40 euro). Health insurance companies are on the free market now, meaning there are lower cost packages.

Some of those packages don't cover everything fully, but you have to think in terms like fysiotherapie, coverage for glasses, extra dental care etc. 
No matter how cheap or how expensive you have, basic care is always covered and with basic care we mean also things like cancer, aids, car accidents, heavy brain surgery etc etc.
You can't go broke here on healthcare. Impossible. Everybody is obligated to have at least the basic insurance package. If for some reason you are not insured, you will be still helped no matter what.

I have seen Sicko as well and I don't understand the fear for waiting. If you have a life threatening disease you always willl receive immediate AND the best care.
My parents who where quite poor both got cancer. They received immediate care and even got transfered to a special cancer hospital where they received extra threatment and surgery. This was not because they where rich and paid more. No this was because they where young at that time and in need of immediate help and they thought they could give it.

If you have something less threatening then you have to wait somethimes maybe even a few weeks, but again, if it's something you can live and work with then I think thats fair. It can be frustrating of course, but if you try to see the bigger picture I think it's normal.


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## David Story (Oct 12, 2010)

GDP
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_tot_exp_as_of_gdp-health-total-expenditure-gdp (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_t ... diture-gdp)

Lifespan
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934746.html

A Harvard study
http://www.wcfia.harvard.edu/misc/publications/centerpiece/spring09_vol23_no2/feature_alexander.html (http://www.wcfia.harvard.edu/misc/publi ... ander.html)


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## Alex W (Oct 12, 2010)

I pay $115 / month for absolute full private inc. ancillary (dental, orthodontic etc).

America's health system is absolutely fucked.


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## Studio E (Oct 12, 2010)

David Story @ Tue Oct 12 said:


> GDP
> http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_tot_exp_as_of_gdp-health-total-expenditure-gdp (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_t ... diture-gdp)
> 
> Lifespan
> ...



Thank you.


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## Studio E (Oct 12, 2010)

Alex W @ Tue Oct 12 said:


> I pay $115 / month for absolute full private inc. ancillary (dental, orthodontic etc).
> 
> America's health system is absolutely fucked.



and these are the little pieces of info that I find invaluable. Thank you for the input. Amazing how we're sold such a bill of bullshit from the right about how horrible it is everywhere else in the world.


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## Alex W (Oct 12, 2010)

No worries, yeah don't worry it's painful for the rest of the world to watch your horrible propaganda machine at work, I feel sorry for Americans I really do.


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## Animus (Oct 12, 2010)

Alex W @ Tue Oct 12 said:


> I pay $115 / month for absolute full private inc. ancillary (dental, orthodontic etc).
> 
> America's health system is absolutely fucked.



Isn't even the private insurance subsidized by the government in Australia? You guys seem to have a pretty decent system and would probably be the most compatible system in the US. Though, from what I read you are paying more taxes for healthcare, which apparently include about 1.5% fed tax, a 10% VAT apparently, and taxes added to fuel costs, so you have to factor in those too for total personal cost. How do those break down exactly?


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## Alex W (Oct 12, 2010)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(Australia)

There are a few major differences between Australian and US politics / society.

Australia has a powerful labour union system in place, meaning Aussie workers in general get much better rights than Americans. We have a much fairer wage system with minimum wages monitored closely and adjusted to keep people above the poverty line.

America doesn't have a labour party, and instead voters (voting is compulsory in Australia btw) have a choice between 2 conservative parties. So either way, you're somewhat screwed unless you're rich, and reform is dictated by big business.

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## Hannes_F (Oct 13, 2010)

P.T. @ Wed Oct 13 said:


> Hi, Hannes;
> 
> Does that 380 per month cover everything or is it a %?
> 
> Many US plans only pay 80%.



Hi P.T., that covers 100% here incl. prescribed drugs.

There are some exceptions from that. 
- Dental Prosthesis is only paid to 50 %.
- Glasses are only paid to a certain amount (something between 100 and 200 EUR)
- Most doctors here, especially dentists, will charge me more if I am privatly insured than public (this sounds a little crazy but it is true). These costs are covered until a factor of 2.3 of the normal price. So if I go to a dentist that charges say 3.5 times of the normal rate I must either change the doctor, negotiate with him or pay the difference out of my pocket (have done all of that depending on the circumstances). However only few dentists can or will charge that, most are happy they get the 2.3 factor.
- Drugs that are considered to be dietary supplement and not medicine are not covered, even if they are prescribed. That includes vitamines but also many nature medicine supplements. However physiotherapy and costs for health practioners are covered.

Some more things to mention:
- The rate for the actual health insurance is 340 EUR, the other 40 EUR are a nursing insurance for age (mandatory).
- The rate with a private health insurance depends on when (which age) and which health status you enter the insurance, and also on the gender.
- If you are so healthy that you don't need doctors and prescriptions much over the year you are rewarded. Not only you don't have to pay the annual 400 EUR co-payment but also get back parts of your insurance rate.
- This rate is supposed to be cost-covering overall, so there is no external funding or employer's share involved.

Sorry for overloading you with so many details but since you asked I thought the answer should be differentiated or it would be kind of false. Cheers o-[][]-o


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## George Caplan (Oct 13, 2010)

Hannes_F @ Wed Oct 13 said:


> - If you are so healthy that you don't need doctors and prescriptions much over the year you are rewarded.



what happens if youre unhealthy Hannes? are you punished?


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## Hannes_F (Oct 13, 2010)

George, if I need much treatment there is no upper limit or extra charge. 

It would be different situation if I entered the insurance in ill state. In this case the insurance would add a risk factor to my monthly fee because they expect me to be a more expensive client. In these cases it is better to go for a public insurance that does not have risk factors.


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## Studio E (Oct 13, 2010)

Another thanks along the way of this thread. I really appreciate all of the info that is being shared here. I will be indexing this thread for a long time to better understand how different nations deal with their people's health needs. This is so important, especially I feel, if you are an American right now.


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## chimuelo (Oct 14, 2010)

I have AFL-CIO group plan where 4-8 dollars an hour was taken out of my pay over a 30 year period. 
This ensures our retirees excellant coverage as the younger members who don't use many benefits are covering the retirees.
Its the best thing about the International Labor Unions.
I have paid in 300,000 + and only used 67,000 so the formula is sound.

But lets keep our eyes focused on why Government controlled health care in the USA might not work.

In Belgium, when a Government official takes a bribe or steals money, he would be imprisoned. In the USA, he is rewarded. Case in point more recently.....Charley Rangle. He writes our tax codes, but then steals and pretends he was unaware of the very laws he subjects us to.
So Governments around the globe act much differntly than the scoundrels we allow to fleece our tax dollars.

Doctors in the USA are FORCED to insure themselves thanks to the politicians who sell legisaltion favorable to trial lawyers that have caused our rates to skyrocket.
The whole evil doctor scenario our President used to trick Americans into thinking something is wrong is his usual poorly advised class warfare strategy.
My neighbor lost her coverage and her doctor still treats her but she has to get help with the cost of the pharmacuticals. 

So don't buy into this get the rich eveil doctor nonsense.

Our system is corrupt because of the Politicians and Lawyers. Get them out of the mix and use a fee for service program, where those who have no money get coverage from the funds already in place.
Medicare intake rates are massive, and once inflated costs come under control and lawsuits get capped, the snakes will slither off to another area in search of prey.

If Doctors were allowed to be involved instead of lawyers and politicians we would not have such a broken down system.
Instead of listening to medical proffessionals we have law proffessors and Union thugs deciding our future.
Who would you rather have managing your Health Care.........??
Andy Stern and Obama, or the best medical proffessionals from each State in the Union.....??

And yes the insurance companies were allowed to refuse expensive coverage to folks because of the lack of oversight.
Fingers are all pointing in different directions, but it always points back to those who profit the most.
Politicians who sell the laws, the lawyers who shake down the money tree, and the profit driven insurance indusrty set up by yours truly.


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## snowleopard (Oct 16, 2010)

I am convinced from experience that America's health care is headed for catastrophic ruin. A short story for everyone: 

My father worked for 30 years for AT&T as a specialist. He never asked for a single handout his entire life, ever. He owned his own house, paid all his bills, had no real debt, saved for retirement. He wasn't rich, but had some extra savings, and paid for supplemental insurance to further protect him beyond Medicare. He went for walks every day, would go swimming a couple times a week, and kept mentally active, tinkering with computers and such. 

Then, in 2006, at the age of 76 he suffered a major stroke. After spending a week or so in the hospital, he went to a nursing home. He could talk, and eat with assistance, but couldn't walk or fully clean himself, This became his life. The place was humiliating, smelled bad, and was devoid of hope. Nearly all of them we visited were the same. I would encourage anyone in the United States to go visit a few in your town. Just walk through them and you'll understand. 

It wasn't long after he was admitted to the nursing home both Medicare and his supplemental insurance cut him off. Soon after that his life savings drained away, all of it, in order to pay for his medical care. He passed away earlier this year, essentially penniless. 

This is the United States health care system.


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## Mike Greene (Oct 18, 2010)

That's really sad. I'm sorry for your father and your family.

What's especially tragic is that this isn't an unusual story. Medical bills account for 60% of our bankruptcies in the United States. 3/4 of these people had health insurance. Responsible people who do the right thing, then lose everything.

But I guess that's okay, because we're lucky enough to live in the country where the wives of Dubai oil barons come to get their cosmetic surgery done. You know, because we're number one with stuff like that. (Ha! In your face, Canada!)


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## Hannes_F (Oct 18, 2010)

It is not ideal but for these cases (and we know nearly all of us will need some support the one or other way) we have a mandatory nursing insurance in Germany. It was introduced in 1995 and as I said I pay 40 EUR per month for it on top of my health care.

In case of nursing need the patients are classified into three categories (category one begins with being helped in your house for 90 minutes a day and category three needs 5 hours of individual help and nursing per day - at home or in a nursing home). Depending on the category this fund will pay 

- between EUR 225 and EUR 685 for self organized household help and nursing in your own home
- between EUR 440 and EUR 1510 for official nursing help in your own home
- between EUR 1023 and EUR 1825 for being in a nursing home

This may not cover all expenses but hope is that everybody can at least cover the basics without getting broke. And as I said everybody needs to have it here, at least everybody that is employed and everybody that has any private health insurance.


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## David Story (Oct 18, 2010)

Write your senator and representative. Say you support universal heath care.
http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Elected.shtml

or your district office, messages there are even more effective.


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## Hannes_F (Oct 18, 2010)

I should add that similar stories like that of snowleopard happened in our family too before we had that mandatory nursing insurance. The later one of both of my grandparent lines died with every funds used up for nursing, despite all of them being caring and thinking people. I remember well how one of my grandmas lived in her little house as long as ever possible, then had to move into a nursing home and poof ... the house, money and all she ever had was gone within very short time. 

Psychologically it seems to be against our nature to save up for frailty because nobody wants to be in that state, so I feel it is good that governement has taken some responsibility for it.


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