# VST loudness - how to max out in Cubase?



## xanderscores (Jan 11, 2020)

This is something that's been bugging me for quite a while now, perhaps you guys can help me out:

My VST's audio signal (mainly Kontakt5) which is routed to Cubase seems to be very weak. I have a composition with tutti orchestra and all, amounting to a peak of -14dB (according to Cubase audio statistics). 
All channels/tracks are set to 0 (afaik audio tracks shouldn't exceed 0), midi volume at 100 for most of the tracks, yet I have to crank up the hardware volume knob on my Apollo to hear anything.
Now what's the best way to increase the signal? There must be a single point where I can do this. Isn't there some kind of plug-in that I can put on the master output?

Thanks in advance for your advice!


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## Manaberry (Jan 11, 2020)

Hello @xanderscores 

Same statement as you. VST volume is somehow low. I use a peak limiter plugin on the master bus during composition with +9 or +12db.


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## shomynik (Jan 11, 2020)

It is how it supose to be, -14db is actually great, it leaves you with pleanty of headroom and you will not touch 0db digital scale as touching it would clip the converters and introduce nasty digital distortion. If the level is too low for you just turn up the monitors, no need for plugins on the master bus while working on your track.

Plugins are also calibrated to work the best around that level, so for great results you might wanna monitor that.

For the final export, if you want to make your track loud, there are gain and limiter plugins that can help you do that.


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## Manaberry (Jan 11, 2020)

shomynik said:


> It is how it supose to be, -14db is actually great, it leaves you with pleanty of headroom and you will not touch 0db digital scale as touching it would clip the converters and introduce nasty digital distortion. If the level is too low for you just turn up the monitors, no need for plugins on the master bus while working on your track.
> 
> Plugins are also calibrated to work the best around that level, so for great results you might wanna monitor that.
> 
> For the final export, if you want to make your track loud, there are gain and limiter plugins that can help you do that.



At least add Ice9 to prevent potential volume glitches caused by bugs and bad loops. The monitors and your ears can be damaged.


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## shomynik (Jan 11, 2020)

Manaberry said:


> At least add Ice9 to prevent potential volume glitches caused by bugs and bad loops. The monitors and your ears can be damaged.


Never came across that plugin, looks cool, thanks. I do however have a Pro-L limiter in Control Room of Cubase on 0db doing nothing except protecting from those sudden bursts.


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## xanderscores (Jan 12, 2020)

Thanks for your replies. It's not that my audio interface doesn't have a volume knob, but the difference in volume is nasty when you add a different plug-in like Omnisphere which is so much louder. Export to audio doesn't have a normalize function built-in, so the audio file will be low, too. I thought there was a built-in solution in Cubase, but obviously not, so I'll go with the limiter plug-in solution suggested by @Manaberry. Thanks!


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## Pietro (Jan 13, 2020)

Built-in like gain, that you can have on any/all tracks or a Cubase limiter that you can have on master?

Or routing a group of tracks to a group channel and adding gain there?

It's all there.

- Piotr


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## Olfirf (Jan 13, 2020)

You should also note that in Kontakt Settings you have two options what the default volume is. 
Plugins like Omnisphere should definitely not be that loud, as this is only done to impress. Working on songs, all my omnisphere sounds are usually half the volume or lower.


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## Tfis (Jan 13, 2020)

xanderscores said:


> There must be a single point where I can do this.


Why not raising the gain?


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## xanderscores (Jan 13, 2020)

Tfis said:


> Why not raising the gain?



I might be somehow in the wrong box, but - how/where do I do this?


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## shomynik (Jan 14, 2020)

xanderscores said:


> I might be somehow in the wrong box, but - how/where do I do this?


They are literally all over the place. In Cubase you have one "Gain" in your PRE section of the mixer, but also in Channel Strip you can find (the same thing) "Output" in Limiter and Saturation and "Makeup" in Compressor.

Like I said, plugins work best with certain signal levels (every plugin (should) have that in it's specification but it's safe to go with around -14db) and thats the reason they are eveywhere so yiu can control the signal level at every step. That's called Gain Staging.

There are tons of free third party gain plugins.

I use Hofa
https://hofa-plugins.de/en/plugins/hofa-system/basic/

and kHz








Kilohearts | Gain


Sound loud? Make softer. Sound quiet? Make louder.




kilohearts.com


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## ltmusic (Jan 14, 2020)

shomynik said:


> They are literally all over the place. In Cubase you have one "Gain" in your PRE section of the mixer, but also in Channel Strip you can find (the same thing) "Output" in Limiter and Saturation and "Makeup" in Compressor.
> 
> Like I said, plugins work the best with certain signal levels (every plugin (should) have that in it's specification but it's safe to go with around -14db) and thats the reason they are eveywhere so yiu can control the signal level at every step. That's called Gain Staging.
> 
> ...



That means that the peak on the master bus should be around -14db ?


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## shomynik (Jan 14, 2020)

ltmusic said:


> That means that the peak on the master bus should be around -14db ?


Well yes and no, -14db is regarding input of the plugins only, more often than not plugins have input meter for monitoring that. If you want to use master plugins then yes, the level should me around that.

But the level after the last plugin (the level that you monitor on the master meter) can be whatever you want and typically involves a trade between loudness and dynamics and a Limiter is often used (if this is confusing then google and learn about compression). If you make orchestral or cinematic music then you most probably want a generous dynamic range so your RMS levels should not be too high. There are different standards for different medias, you can google "loudness standards" and learn a bit about that, but you can always use a reference for that, make your track as loud as another (pro?) track you like.

Just remember, Limiting is a destructive process, so if you are giving your track to a mastering engineer or dunno, editor of some sort, you might want to discuss with him about it.


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## John Longley (Jan 14, 2020)

Add a DCA (VCA) to each group in your template and you can make it up per group with a trim plug, an eq gain, the channel strip gain (as mentioned). You could also put your synths etc on a bus/group/DCA and have them trimmed down likewise. You have a lot of options, but rather than trying to thread the needle (and assuming you don't have Kontakt defaulted to -6DB in preferences), it is pretty easy to manage like tracks in a group. Just my $.02


Also what is -14? Dbfs, DBu, DBVU, LUFS, RMS ?  At any rate, converter cal from analog days usually ends up -12dbfs to -16dbfs somewhere for 0dbfs =DBVU, so your analog inputs from mic inputs will play nicely with that level vs a screaming Synth preset level.

Let us know how you make out.


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## xanderscores (Jan 15, 2020)

John Longley said:


> ...
> Let us know how you make out.



Thanks, John. As of now I don't understand a word of what you've written, but I guess it will become clearer.


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## shomynik (Jan 15, 2020)

John Longley said:


> Also what is -14? Dbfs, DBu, DBVU, LUFS, RMS ?



I meant digital scale, what we observe on DAW faders.


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## John Longley (Jan 15, 2020)

xanderscores said:


> Thanks, John. As of now I don't understand a word of what you've written, but I guess it will become clearer.


Group all your strings or horns, synths etc and send each to a common bus (sub group) or assign those faders to a dca. You can trim (adjust gain) on all signals relatively and then make fine adjustment with faders. I've suggested places in the chain you can control gain (as others suggested). Google assigning tracks go a sub group or using dcas (vcas) in Cubase or whatever DAW you know best for reference.

Lastly check your Kontakt settings to see if you'd default output level for Kontakt is at 0dbfs of -6dbfs. If it's -6 you could swap it to zero.

Apologies if I lost you, but with some light reading I hope this helps some. Hang in there!


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## ltmusic (Jan 15, 2020)

shomynik said:


> Well yes and no, -14db is regarding input of the plugins only, more often than not plugins have input meter for monitoring that. If you want to use master plugins then yes, the level should me around that.
> 
> But the level after the last plugin (the level that you monitor on the master meter) can be whatever you want and typically involves a trade between loudness and dynamics and a Limiter is often used (if this is confusing then google and learn about compression). If you make orchestral or cinematic music then you most probably want a generous dynamic range so your RMS levels should not be too high. There are different standards for different medias, you can google "loudness standards" and learn a bit about that, but you can always use a reference for that, make your track as loud as another (pro?) track you like.
> 
> Just remember, Limiting is a destructive process, so if you are giving your track to a mastering engineer or dunno, editor of some sort, you might want to discuss with him about it.



Thanks for the explanation!


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## VinRice (Jan 16, 2020)

Ominisphere is ridiculously loud. Pain in the arse to have to turn it down every time. They should really look at that.


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## rhizomusicosmos (Jan 16, 2020)

It sounds like you need to go over some tutorials on gain-staging in DAWs, and Cubase in particular. Cubase already has all the tools you need to optimise gain, as does almost every other DAW on the market.

Also don't conflate loudness (a perceptual thing) with peak levels (a measurement thing). They are both ultimately about signal levels but have different focuses. 

A limiter with make-up gain or a maximiser on your master bus could fix your monitoring loudness issues while you sort out a workable approach to mixing your loud and quiet instruments.

In fact, here is the Cubase Maximiser:





Maximizer


Maximizer raises the loudness of audio material without the risk of clipping. The plug-in provides two modes, Classic and Modern, that offer different algorithms and parameters.




steinberg.help


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## jcrosby (Jan 16, 2020)

VinRice said:


> Ominisphere is ridiculously loud. Pain in the arse to have to turn it down every time. They should really look at that.


Or at least add a 'default trim' value in the preferences.


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## Paulogic (Nov 24, 2021)

To revive an old threat : I'm having the opposite... all VST's are way to loud and go max out.
I have to turn every instance/vst/track down bij -6 dB minimum. I'm probably overseeing a
setting somewhere.


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