# For what do I need more than 32 GB Ram in these days?



## germancomponist (May 26, 2013)

I am building a new DAW and I ask to myself: When I use fast SSD's for sample streaming, is there also a reason for having more than 32 GB of Ram?


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## BlueStar (May 26, 2013)

I'm sure this depends on your libraries and way of working.
So you should know best 
I know a successful trailer composer who still works with 2GB. 

Do you plan to build an orchestra template or do you prefer to
work without a template just loading the stuff you need?

Cheers,

David


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## germancomponist (May 26, 2013)

Hi David, both.... . 

I read elsewhere that it is better to have much Ram when you use SSD drives, because they have to write even less. Sure. But I need to read data, and when I have 32 GB? There is an interesting read at Toms Hardware site (sorry, it is german language): http://www.tomshardware.de/ssd-ram-lebensdauer-datenmenge-schreiben,testberichte-241208-3.html

What do you think?


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## Jdiggity1 (May 26, 2013)

How much RAM do you use at the moment? I have 32 Gb installed, but rarely use over 16Gb. And i use Big EWQL templates.


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## germancomponist (May 26, 2013)

I had used 8 Gb and never had a problem 

The reason why I ask is that I want to buy a mobo where I can use 32Gb max.


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## Daryl (May 26, 2013)

germancomponist @ Sun May 26 said:


> I am building a new DAW and I ask to myself: When I use fast SSD's for sample streaming, is there also a reason for having more than 32 GB of Ram?


If you are only streaming, you probably don't need more than 32GB.

However there are two scenarios where RAM usage can increase:

1) Running lots of convolution reverbs.
2) Running tempo synced patches

I would see how much these sort of patches take up in your template, see much RAM the empty VI instances take, and you will have a better idea of how much RAM you need.

D


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## Ryan Scully (May 26, 2013)

I have 32 GB right now with SSD on a one machine setup - I feel very comfortable in knowing that I will definitely not need anymore than that at this point in the game. 




Ryan :D


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## germancomponist (May 26, 2013)

Daryl, I don't like convolution reverbs so much and do not use loops. (Maybe in the future, who knows?) 

Ah, you mean tempo synced synth patches?

But another question comes in mind: Did you set your swap file to zero? I read this elsewhere.... .


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## jamwerks (May 26, 2013)

Maybe 1 machine with 32Gb, or 2 machines with 64Gb, depends only on how many libraries you want to have open at the same time.


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## 667 (May 26, 2013)

If you are not using PLAY you do not need 64GB RAM. Or rather, you would know if you did and not need to ask this question. 

Since Kontakt is so much lighter on RAM-- SSD's + Kontakt really does work well. I just built a new DAW based on an ASUS P9x79 Pro and only installed 32GB RAM. But I bought it since it had 8 DIMM slots so I can max out at 64GB later if I need to. But I have ~1TB of SSD's in this system and so I probably won't need to unless I did a project that was using a huge Hollywood Strings and Brass template.

When I start to reach the limit of what 32GB can do I can assess whether I need a secondary PC (already have VE Pro for this) or if I just need to add some RAM. Basically whether I'm CPU-limited or I/O-limited, or if I'm just running out of RAM. But either way it'll be a lot cheaper to do in future than overdoing it now.


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## germancomponist (May 26, 2013)

667, so you are using a 3930k, right?

I at first wanted to use this too, but I ended up with a 3770k and a cool mobo... . http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3704460&no=1#3704460


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## Guy Rowland (May 26, 2013)

Agree - if you're mostly on Kontakt and streaming samples, 32gb should be fine. Run fully purged! Live the dream!


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## EastWest Lurker (May 26, 2013)

I am now facing this dilemma in the not too distant future. My PC slave is an Intel Core i7-950 with a MSI X58A-GD45 Intel X58 Socket B Motherboard. It has three memory slots that I have 8 GB in, and MSI says that 24 GB is the max it can handle and apparently there is no MOBO that will handle more than 24 GB that work with that processor.

My present VE Pro 5 template for HS HB, and HOW, along with W7 and the other load up stuff, totals app. 22 GB. But when Hollywood Orchestral Percussion comes out, I am going to want to run that as well so I will need at least 32 GB.

So I guess I am going to have to upgrade the processor and the MOBO. Anyone have a recommendation for the least expensive i7/MOBO combo that will work for me?


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## germancomponist (May 26, 2013)

Have a look at my other thread, Jay. For me, it is enough and I am happy to have that new Thonderbolt connection to use my firewire audio interface. But it depends. If you need more ram then you should go with the 3930k where you can use 64GB.... .


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## EastWest Lurker (May 26, 2013)

germancomponist @ Sun May 26 said:


> Have a look at my other thread, Jay. For me, it is enough and I am happy to have that new Thonderbolt connection to use my firewire audio interface. But it depends. If you need more ram then you should go with the 3930k where you can use 64GB.... .



Simply more money than I want to spend Gunther.


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## germancomponist (May 26, 2013)

Hm, do you use SSD's? If so, maybe 32 GB is enough for you too?


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## EastWest Lurker (May 26, 2013)

germancomponist @ Sun May 26 said:


> Hm, do you use SSD's? If so, maybe 32 GB is enough for you too?



I am using 1 SSD, may consider using 2. Yes I think 32 GB will be fine.

How about this?
http://www.amazon.com/Microsel-i7-3770k-GA-Z77X-UD3H-Motherboard-i73770k-Z77X3-KIT/dp/B008B6OPCY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1369591163&sr=8-2&keywords=motherboard+cpu+combo+i7 (http://www.amazon.com/Microsel-i7-3770k ... u+combo+i7)


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## BlueStar (May 26, 2013)

Thanks for the Tomshardward-Link.

If I got it right, they do a test with different graphic and program rendering stuff going on. Lots of writing involved. In the end they say that 32GB gives enhancment in their test machine. But they don't really know, if it's the same with all computers...

So basically this test is based on writing a lot of information in short time, if I get it right.

For me the thoughts of other v.i. users, would be more decisive, if I'd had to do the decision


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## germancomponist (May 26, 2013)

Jay, this is sheap, but I don't know if it is also good for a DAW. It depends on what do you need to connect..... .

David, yes, I mentioned it, the test was more interesting for writing data..... .



> For me the thoughts of other v.i. users, would be more decisive, if I'd had to do the decision



The reason why I ask here.... .


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## germancomponist (May 26, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Sun May 26 said:


> Run fully purged! Live the dream!



+1


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## 667 (May 26, 2013)

Yes, 3930k. It was toss up with 3770k for sure. I just wanted the extra cores (for CPU heavy stuff like MIR) as well as capability to use 64GB RAM in future in case 32GB wasn't enough. I have not fully stress tested yet to be honest so cannot say 100% but so far it has not let me down: I upgraded from dual core / 8GB. 

If I were adding a second machine over VE Pro it would be 3770 for sure. I'd get non-K version from commodity vendor and just reinstall Windows from scratch to set up for audio. 

Recently built a DAW based on this actually (not for myself). Originally purchased from Dell (Vostro 470) and installed Windows to a 256GB mSATA drive-- the motherboard in that system is not very expandable and does not have many ports but it does have a mSATA slot. TI-based Firewire card for audio output. It can be reasonably priced option to do this if you get it on an good sale.


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## germancomponist (May 26, 2013)

It is a wild field. When I compare what we are able to buy now, to the technique from 2009.... .


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## rgames (May 26, 2013)

You definitely can reduce RAM requirements with SSD's. I have a total of six SSD's (two each in two slaves and one in my DAW) and when I added them my RAM usage went done quite a bit - maybe something like 30%, can't recall exactly. My slaves are 16 GB and 32 GB and my DAW has 24 GB installed. 16+16+24 was fine until I invested in Dimension strings - still waiting on the rest of the sections but once they're released I'll need 32 GB to have all arts loaded for all sections.

How much you need depends entirely on how you work. I have all my orchestral libraries and articulations loaded up so I can drag-and-drop among parts to see what sounds the best. That includes VSL SE, VSL Dim Strings, LASS, Hollywood Brass, Cinebrass, bunch of perc, pianos, harps, etc. For that setup, 16+32+24 is about right.

The thing to keep in mind about RAM is that just because you can fill it with samples doesn't mean you can actually play them all back. If you write densely orchestrated passages then I doubt you can get everything running from a single 64 GB machine with reasonable latency. You're disk / bus limited, not RAM limited.

I had that problem when VSL first went to the Special Edition. I had been using the Horizon series before and spread it across multiple machines for dense orchestrations. The SE was limited to a single machine and even though I could load everything on one machine I couldn't actually play back a fully orchestrated section of music. So the "upgrade" resulted in a *much* more cumbersome workflow. Fought with them on that for quite a while - couldn't get them to understand... But they finally did.

rgames


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## germancomponist (May 26, 2013)

What a good friend of mine told me yesterday, Richard: Do not think you can run all your stuff on one machine. Better to have a good built DAW and some slaves.... .


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## chimuelo (May 27, 2013)

Yeah, like a 2U ATX Shock Rack w/ 2 x 1U ATX Chassis, each having a pair of
Supermicro Z77 Mini ITX boards with 16GB's.
Gives you a main DAW and 3 x 16GB Slaves.
Small portable powerful and streamlined.
Much cheaper than you think too.


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## germancomponist (May 27, 2013)

Interesting.... .


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## Daryl (May 27, 2013)

germancomponist @ Sun May 26 said:


> What a good friend of mine told me yesterday, Richard: Do not think you can run all your stuff on one machine. Better to have a good built DAW and some slaves.... .


It is possible to run everything from one machine, but it does require a fair amount of forethought, and the more you know about orchestration, the easier it is to avoid throwing the kitchen sink at every line.

D


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## rgames (May 27, 2013)

Daryl @ Mon May 27 said:


> germancomponist @ Sun May 26 said:
> 
> 
> > What a good friend of mine told me yesterday, Richard: Do not think you can run all your stuff on one machine. Better to have a good built DAW and some slaves.... .
> ...



If by "forethought" you mean "planning for bounce" then I'll agree. But if you want to retain access to the MIDI data and you have a bunch of voices doing fast lines with modulations then I seriously doubt you can do it with reasonable latency.

This topic just came up in another thread: did Mahler know anything about orchestration? You think you can run a Mahler symphony on a single machine?

rgames


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## Daryl (May 28, 2013)

rgames @ Tue May 28 said:


> Daryl @ Mon May 27 said:
> 
> 
> > germancomponist @ Sun May 26 said:
> ...


Sorry. you're wrong. I also work at 128, not 128 with an added VEP buffer. :wink: 



rgames @ Tue May 28 said:


> This topic just came up in another thread: did Mahler know anything about orchestration? You think you can run a Mahler symphony on a single machine?


Yes.

D


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## Guy Rowland (May 28, 2013)

Admittedly I haven't tried Mahler, but don't find real world problems on a single machine running purged at session start. There are caveats though - VE Pro is a crucial component for working at maximum efficiency (FAR more than Cubase), and I streamline my reverbs / disable the built in LASS reverbs etc to keep the number of plugins to a reasonable number.


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## XT26 (May 28, 2013)

I have been told but am not sure how accurate it is that the i7 processors struggle to access more than 32 GB of RAM and that it's better to use dual XEON processors if you want to go 64 GB of RAM. 

Is this true? anyone got any info about this?

Cheers,

Tom


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## Ryan (May 28, 2013)

Hi
I have a system with 32GB ram, 4 SSD´s and a i7. I have maxed out my 32GB ram with one of my biggest templates. But I´m one of those who like to have everything at my fingernails when I need it, or more or less all of the basic stuff. I would recommend you to go for a 32GB build, even if your not gonna use everything, but then you are prepared for the worst case insane library scenario. 

Ryan


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## chimuelo (May 28, 2013)

XT26 @ Tue May 28 said:


> I have been told but am not sure how accurate it is that the i7 processors struggle to access more than 32 GB of RAM and that it's better to use dual XEON processors if you want to go 64 GB of RAM.
> 
> Is this true? anyone got any info about this?
> 
> ...



It's the Foxwood and Supermicro motherboards design, combined with the 32GBs that allow this operation to run smoothly.
I had 32GBs on my i7 3770S 1U server, and it just lost it's rapid response which is still fine for recording, but for realtime response, I found that 16GBs was my best choice.
On the triple channel DIMM i7 X58 I found that 24GBs was the best choice instead of 48GBs.
Dual CPU designs can access huge amounts of RAM but from my experience 16GBs in multiple machines is fast and very stable, especially if the RAM can be bumped up to 1800-1866MHz + SSDs.
But I need 64 samples @ 48k w/ 1.7 msec. Duplexxed.
Not really what a composer would have to use.

But this allows Reaper to do Program Change and MAC automations while hosting Silentway Suites plug ins, Kontakt 5 and Piano Teq 4.
Using Absolute 14bit MIDI, every slight adjustment is super accurate and all of my ITB and Hardware synths are using 24bit audiorate modulation.

But from my experience if it works live, then it's grand to have in a studio enviroment as waiting and editing become much faster, and any freezes can reboot in seconds as opposed to minutes.

If I were to have larger RAM needs, I would use some i7 X58s as their triple channel RAM acts similar to the i7 Z77s w/ 16GBs.
Just rebuilt my 24GB DAW (spare) and replaced the old MSI Z77-GD65 w/ a new one instead of going with another 1U i7 3770S. But the difference is the X58s cannot exist in a 1U at the Temps I need.

If I were a composer I would stay with thise until 2014 until a real doubling of the Buss comes along with the Broadwell CPUs.
These will addess twice the width of anything we now have.
The best thing for me using 16GBs is using developers like LASS who take the time to use NCW lossless audio.


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## Greg (May 29, 2013)

Maybe wait for the next gen intel processor?

http://newsroom.intel.com/community/int ... oming-soon

32 gb of ram is quite a lot. You definitely don't need 64 unless you like running a ridiculously massive template.


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## rgames (May 29, 2013)

Daryl @ Tue May 28 said:


> rgames @ Tue May 28 said:
> 
> 
> > This topic just came up in another thread: did Mahler know anything about orchestration? You think you can run a Mahler symphony on a single machine?
> ...


Excellent. I suggest the beginning of the second movement of #5, up to bar 74 or so. I don't think he uses all six separate horn parts up to that point, so it's not too demanding.

Will you post it here or should I watch for a separate thread?

I'm looking forward to someone finally posting an example of what you can do in real time on a single machine. Been having these discussions for a couple years but we've never had anyone post anything meaningful. Thanks for stepping up to help the rest of us understand what's possible. Posting the voice counts will help a bunch, too. I'd love to get rid of my slaves - hopefully this demonstration will relax my mind and allow me to do so!


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## Daryl (May 29, 2013)

rgames @ Wed May 29 said:


> Daryl @ Tue May 28 said:
> 
> 
> > rgames @ Tue May 28 said:
> ...


Fine. I reckon it will take 1-2 days to program and my usual fee is £500 per day. I assume that you're intending to pay for this demonstration?

D


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## Will Blackburn (May 29, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun May 26 said:


> I am now facing this dilemma in the not too distant future. My PC slave is an Intel Core i7-950 with a MSI X58A-GD45 Intel X58 Socket B Motherboard. It has three memory slots that I have 8 GB in, and MSI says that 24 GB is the max it can handle and apparently there is no MOBO that will handle more than 24 GB that work with that processor.
> 
> My present VE Pro 5 template for HS HB, and HOW, along with W7 and the other load up stuff, totals app. 22 GB. But when Hollywood Orchestral Percussion comes out, I am going to want to run that as well so I will need at least 32 GB.
> 
> So I guess I am going to have to upgrade the processor and the MOBO. Anyone have a recommendation for the least expensive i7/MOBO combo that will work for me?




Check with your MOBO manufacturer, they may have updated it.

2 years ago I bought a 24gb RAM / 6 core Carillon pc (UK based). Rung up to inquire about upgrading to an entirely new board and it turned out that a quick update of the MOBO (by flashing it) meant it could handle twice the amount - 48Gb. Cost me under £200 for 6 new 8gb sticks.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 29, 2013)

wcb123 @ Wed May 29 said:


> Check with your MOBO manufacturer, they may have updated it.
> 
> 2 years ago I bought a 24gb RAM / 6 core Carillon pc (UK based). Rung up to inquire about upgrading to an entirely new board and it turned out that a quick update of the MOBO (by flashing it) meant it could handle twice the amount - 48Gb. Cost me under £200 for 6 new 8gb sticks.



I did. They didn't.


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## rgames (May 30, 2013)

Daryl @ Wed May 29 said:


> rgames @ Wed May 29 said:
> 
> 
> > Daryl @ Tue May 28 said:
> ...


Just post something equivalent that you've already done.


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## Guy Rowland (May 30, 2013)

Sigh, it's all getting a bit dick-swinging. And I'll happily admit - my own orchestrations are, I strongly expect, considerably less complex than a full Mahler Symphony. In my defence, I think a full Mahler Symphony would be not the most appropriate underscore for a 15 minute kids show.

In my own real world - 32gb is fine in Kontakt-based template of over 500 instruments / artics.


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## Daryl (May 30, 2013)

rgames @ Thu May 30 said:


> Just post something equivalent that you've already done.


Richard, I don't really know what I can post. Whatever I upload you will say that it isn't Mahler or that it isn't any good, so there's not much point, because you've obviously already made up your mind.

However, just to show a little of what is possible on one machine, here is a little thing I wrote a couple of years ago. It certainly isn't Mahler. Nor does it pretend to be, but there are many articulations, lots of notes and copious controller data, so even though the style is not equivalent, the amount of data the computer has to crunch probably is similar. Let the trashing begin. :wink: 

[flash width=450 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F94637370&secret_url=false[/flash]

D


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## Daryl (May 30, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Thu May 30 said:


> Sigh, it's all getting a bit dick-swinging. And I'll happily admit - my own orchestrations are, I strongly expect, considerably less complex than a full Mahler Symphony. In my defence, I think a full Mahler Symphony would be not the most appropriate underscore for a 15 minute kids show.
> 
> In my own real world - 32gb is fine in Kontakt-based template of over 500 instruments / artics.


Guy, I don't think it's so much dick-swinging as some people believing that their own experiences are the only experiences that exist. To me it seems perfectly obvious that other people work in different ways than I, and that my solutions are not the only ones that exist.

D


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## Guy Rowland (May 30, 2013)

Daryl @ Thu May 30 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Thu May 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Sigh, it's all getting a bit dick-swinging. And I'll happily admit - my own orchestrations are, I strongly expect, considerably less complex than a full Mahler Symphony. In my defence, I think a full Mahler Symphony would be not the most appropriate underscore for a 15 minute kids show.
> ...



Good words! Indeed so.


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## rgames (May 30, 2013)

Daryl @ Thu May 30 said:


> rgames @ Thu May 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Just post something equivalent that you've already done.
> ...


Nope. Not convinced  I think you're missing a lot of inner voices that would convince me. For example, Mahler (and John Williams for that matter) like to use brass as harmonic beds - they often have five or six individual voices that spell the complete harmony across the mid/upper brass. Then do the same thing in the WW and add strings and you get a lot of voices.

I don't hear quite that many in the piece you linked. So yes, I agree what you posted probably could be done on a single machine in real time.

The bottom line is voice count - my testing (that I posted here a couple years ago) shows a practical maximum at 1250 - 1500 voices per machine. Maybe you're way over that - I don't know. Without a score or a voice count I'll have to rely on my ear and like I said, I don't think you're crossing that threshold.

My mind definitely is not made up - in fact, I've had these discussions multiple times over the past couple years and I'm the only one who keeps saying "I don't know. Show me." Still haven't seen anything convincing 

rgames


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## XT26 (May 30, 2013)

Hi Richard,
Are you able to post a link to that test? and where did you find the bottleneck was? i.e. what is the main constraining factor? Conceivably you could run 256 GB of RAM on a dual cpu server Mobo but does that mean that the SSD's would end up not being able to keep up?

Cheers,
Tom


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## rgames (May 30, 2013)

There were two (there are some sound and image links that no longer exist but the text covers everything well enough):

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22055

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22511

Those machines are nearly two years old now - I'd love to see someone do something quantifiable like that with a more recent machine.

Still waiting 

rgames


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## Daryl (May 31, 2013)

rgames @ Fri May 31 said:


> Daryl @ Thu May 30 said:
> 
> 
> > rgames @ Thu May 30 said:
> ...


So, just as I suspected, you wouldn't be convinced whatever I put up. Mind you at least you had the grace to say that you "don't hear" rather than they are not there, so I don't have to produce a score to prove you wrong. There are plenty of voices, so I stand by my statement.

And whilst we're at it, you don't need to hedge about "probably" being done on a single machine. It was. 

BTW, you don't really need to lecture me about orchestration. Before I turned my focus to composing I orchestrated for a living, so I do know a little bit about it. :wink: 

D


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## Scrianinoff (May 31, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu 30 May said:


> wcb123 @ Wed May 29 said:
> 
> 
> > Check with your MOBO manufacturer, they may have updated it.
> ...



Don't always believe what you're being told, even if the person, the web site, or the company has 'authority' on the matter.

For example, Intel still claims that their 1366 processors, like your 950 ( http://ark.intel.com/products/37150 ), or the 990x ( http://ark.intel.com/products/52585 ), max out at 24GB, in theory, well, in _marketing and sales_ theory that is, because in technical theory and in practice it supports 48GB just fine. ( www.youtube.com/results?search_query=x5 ... 6+48gb+OR+"48+gb"&oq=x58+OR+1366+48gb+OR+"48+gb" )

Another example, Gigabyte claims on their web site that their X58-OC motherboard maxes out at 24GB ( http://www.gigabyte.com/products/produc ... id=3870#sp ), and their latest BIOS release was published two years ago. Still, it runs 48GB just fine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqVJ3bHdi2E

Yet another example, 10 years ago I bought a Dell Inspiron laptop. After a few years I wanted to max out its RAM. Dell and any other source I asked at the time claimed the maximum was 1GB. I took a gamble and ordered 2GB anyway. It worked, without needing a BIOS update.

Are you feeling lucky?


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## germancomponist (May 31, 2013)

Huh..... .

Maybe they only want to sell their new stuff? o/~


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## EastWest Lurker (May 31, 2013)

Thank you Scrianinoff, Someone else suggested that I just order the RAM, put iit in and see what happens. Maybe I will.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 31, 2013)

Daryl @ Thu May 30 said:


> So, just as I suspected, you wouldn't be convinced whatever I put up. Mind you at least you had the grace to say that you "don't hear" rather than they are not there, so I don't have to produce a score to prove you wrong. There are plenty of voices, so I stand by my statement.
> 
> And whilst we're at it, you don't need to hedge about "probably" being done on a single machine. It was.
> 
> ...



Daryl, you primarily use VSL and Sample Modeling I believe, correct? If so, I can indeed imagine you can get your complex work done on one machine with 32 GB. And the piece is lovely, btw, masterfully orchestrated.

Richard, I just listened to parts of the excerpts from your Cinematic Classics. None of what I hear there sounds to me like it could not be done on one computer with 32 GB.

That said, for the libraries I run, a second computer is a necessity as even with the same amount of RAM the two share, CPU usage would be an issue. It do not mean that my work is any better than someone who only uses one computer skillfully , as Daryl does, but it has made my working with the libraries I use far more enjoyable.


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## Daryl (May 31, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri May 31 said:


> Daryl, you primarily use VSL and Sample Modeling I believe, correct? If so, I can indeed imagine you can get your complex work done on one machine with 32 GB. And the piece is lovely, btw, masterfully orchestrated.


Yes, those are my workhorse libraries, and the one that is most likely to cause CPU problems will be SM instruments. However, this is what I meant about forethought; there are certain libraries that one machine would make less sense, either because of the number of microphone positions needing to be streamed, or because the player is not so efficient, or a combination. If a one machine workflow is preferable, just don't use those particular libraries.

Thanks for the kind words about the music, although that wasn't the purpose in uploading it.

D


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## EastWest Lurker (May 31, 2013)

Daryl @ Fri May 31 said:


> If a one machine workflow is preferable, just don't use those particular libraries.
> 
> D



Exactly the opposite of my thinking. I say pick the libraries you want to run, and then buy a system that runs it well.

I did not think I would like running a 2 machine system, but I actually do.


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## midi_controller (May 31, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri May 31 said:


> I say pick the libraries you want to run, and then buy a system that runs it well.



Actually I'd take it one step further. Build the system that can run the NEXT generation of sample libraries well. I'm seeing more and more libraries come out that have many things loaded fully into ram for time stretching usage (Spitfire's Sable and 8dio's Adagio are good examples of this). Who knows what other tricks could pop up that may need to use more RAM. When I built my last system, the 64GBs of RAM wasn't the expensive part (that honor goes to the SSDs), so I can't really see any reason not to do it. Then at least you know you are a little more prepared for the future.


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## Daryl (May 31, 2013)

midi_controller @ Fri May 31 said:


> Actually I'd take it one step further. Build the system that can run the NEXT generation of sample libraries well. I'm seeing more and more libraries come out that have many things loaded fully into ram for time stretching usage (Spitfire's Sable and 8dio's Adagio are good examples of this). Who knows what other tricks could pop up that may need to use more RAM. When I built my last system, the 64GBs of RAM wasn't the expensive part (that honor goes to the SSDs), so I can't really see any reason not to do it. Then at least you know you are a little more prepared for the future.


Intellectually I agree with you, but as far as I can see nobody has a clue what the net generation of libraries will be like. The ones that are advertised as next generation are really nothing of the sort. More like tinkering with what already exists. It could well be that you build a hugely expensive system with bucket loads of RAM and then the next generation turns out to be completely modelled, meaning that you need hardly any RAM but loads of processors. I think the best anyone can do is to get a system that runs what you need now, with a little to spare, and then upgrade it as necessary. No matter what you do, you will still end up paying out a wad of cash every few years. :( 

D


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## Saxer (Jun 1, 2013)

you can make music with any system. making complete tracks out of one taiko sample probably needs some mb only. 
but if you like to experiment with new librarys, start to stack your strings or even build string sections out of single instruments it will be on every system like it ever was: it is a little bit too small and a little bit too slow. at least after using it for two years.

the old rules are the best:

get the best you can afford without getting broke.

don't wait for the next computer generation if you want to work now.

your system is as good as it was even if there are meanwhile cheaper and faster machines available.

whatever you buy: ram and hd/ssd will be full someday... faster than you think.

one of the most important parts is a good backup system.

have fun.


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## rgames (Jun 1, 2013)

Here's an example of a track I just started sequencing that I can't do on a single machine (with my current setup):

[flash width=450 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F95024389&secret_url=false[/flash]

Here's the sketch score: http://www.rgamesmusic.com/clients/Temp/CatalinaFanfare_Intro_WIP_NoPerc.pdf (Catalina Fanfare - Work In Progress - No Perc)

There are some tweaks in the sequencer not captured in the sketch and I haven't added perc yet but it's pretty close. When you look at it, you realize it probably could be done a single machine simply on the basis of the sketch. However, there are several spots where I have to double libraries (e.g. VSL brass and Cinebrass because the Cinebrass legatos don't sound too great on some spots in the faster lines). Plus, I often double the WW lines in both section and solo instruments to get a more realistic sound. Also, I use VDS to double LASS for some shorts. Then there are multiple mic positions, etc. So you start adding up all those doublings and it quickly gets to several thousand voices.

As I've stated multiple times, it all goes back to the voice count (mostly - scripting has an effect, too), and I can't do several thousand voices from a single machine. Maybe new machines can do that - I'd love to see the measurements! But, again, I still have no idea what sort of voice count you can get from a current-vintage machine.

It's impossible to compare without the voice count.

rgames


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## NYC Composer (Jun 2, 2013)

I've recently purchased a second computer, but I am not enthusiastic about it and haven't even used it yet.

Every hour I spend involved in technological pursuits is anther hour during which I did not write a note. I've gotten a lot written on a 6 year old 8 core Mac Pro. 

Here's some more heresy- I'm not so enthusiastic about buying spanking new libraries anymore. Between the cost and the many hours spent learning them and setting up new templates, I'd rather write something. That said, my needs are less than many here- still, I have clients who seem quite pleased with my orchestral /film-ish stuff and my jazz oriented stuff, and those seem the most demanding. Anyone with a laptop and 4 gig of RAM can manage to write some dubstep without straining the laptop's resources.

To the topic though, everyone who uses EW's more recent stuff will probably be a lot better off RAM-wise when the mythical Play 4/Play Pro shows up and it (hopefully) does proper purging.


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## Daryl (Jun 2, 2013)

rgames @ Sun Jun 02 said:


> As I've stated multiple times, it all goes back to the voice count (mostly - scripting has an effect, too), and I can't do several thousand voices from a single machine. Maybe new machines can do that - I'd love to see the measurements! But, again, I still have no idea what sort of voice count you can get from a current-vintage machine.


And that's where you are wrong. As I said many, many posts ago, it all depends on forethought, and part of that is to do with library choice. I never, ever run out of voices with my current set-up, and I don't use SSD. For Sample Modeling Brass voice count is irrelevant. You are still blinkered by thinking that your way of working is the only way. It isn't. I've never said that you don't need to use multiple machines; only that I don't, and I stick to that view.

D


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## rgames (Jun 2, 2013)

Daryl @ Sun Jun 02 said:


> rgames @ Sun Jun 02 said:
> 
> 
> > As I've stated multiple times, it all goes back to the voice count (mostly - scripting has an effect, too), and I can't do several thousand voices from a single machine. Maybe new machines can do that - I'd love to see the measurements! But, again, I still have no idea what sort of voice count you can get from a current-vintage machine.
> ...


I agree with that statement and have said as much: there certainly are setups that allow you to do it. After all, that entire 5 min sketch can be realized using the built-in sounds in Finale and it runs fine on a laptop.

However, the practical reality is that most folks use a mix of libraries that still require streaming voices and I haven't seen anything to indicate that more recent machines can stream enough voices to cover everything we do.

So, if "forethought" is "limiting yourself to certain libraries" then yes, of course there are setups that can work from a single machine. However, I haven't seen anything to indicate that a more general setup will allow it because you just can't stream enough voices from a single machine (I don't think).

rgames


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 2, 2013)

Well, just as one example - Sable. You could run a mix of all 4 mic positions to get everything tailor made to your exact requirements, or you could run one of the three mixed options, at a 1/4 of the system resources. Not sure if that counts as a "general setup". I'm always delighted to make those sorts of compromises - makes a miniscule sonic difference to me and is the practical difference between a constant battle and smooth running.

Of course, many would prefer to have the flexibility of all four and that's fine, but I guess those are the sorts of conceptual differences that will determine if 32gb on a single machine is appropriate for you. For me - it is


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## G.R. Baumann (Jun 4, 2013)

As for the original question and from a Mac perspective

I use a MacPro 8x Nehalem with 32 Gig, no SSD's, but multiple external RAID-0 eSATA via a Sonnet Controller, and what I can say is that before the amount of RAM will be a problem the CPU and bandwidth of the bus will most likely become the real bottle neck, adding more Ram will not help this, hence we bought an additional MacMini with i7 Quad with 16 Gig and SSD, and when the need for more power arises... another MacMini will be bought.


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## Bunford (Jun 5, 2013)

I recently upgraded my machine but stuck with my old CPU as it hasn't faulted yet.

I now have a machine running:

Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-Z77X-UD5H
Processor: Intel Core i5 2500K OC'd to 4.4GHz
RAM: 32GB DDR3
Sound: Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 USB
GPU: Gigabyte NVidia GTX 660 Ti OC 
OS: Microsoft Windows 8 Pro
HDD 1: SanDisk Extreme SSD 240GB (OS and Apps disk)
HDD2: SanDisk Extreme SSD 240GB (my main used sample libraries)
HDD3: Seagate MomentusXT Hybrid 750GB (all other sample libraries and recording onto)
HHD4: 4TB SATAIII regular hard disk for additional data and media storage 

With this setup my boot time is about 12 seconds into a usable Windows environment from a cold boot. My music apps load super quick and never had any issues with popping or glitching or slow downs, practically zero latency and I've tried to load up huge electronic and orchestral projects to push hard and it still didn't budge.


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