# So how do you deal with dialogs?(in film scoring)



## impressions (Oct 28, 2011)

they can be a drag sometimes..
especially those long dialogs where you have to add emotions to the actor's "lecture"..

i use these techniques mostly-
finding out the rhythm, where are the keypoints/turn points-and compose accordingly, figure out buildups, or just improvise until something comes out good, and then after i got a solid skeleton, i figure out the orchestration etc..

with the scene i'm doing now, i'm having trouble explaining what the actor's saying, even though the emotions in the music are correct, it doesn't sound like it's glued to me...i've been tossing and turning this for a week already..


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## poseur (Oct 28, 2011)

if it's _key_ dialog, i often think of it
--- and listen to it ---
as if it were _one of the instruments in "the band"_;
it would be the _punctuating_ instrument, as it were.

i usually play an instrument that's gonna stick to the score
--- maybe piano or guitar, or something sampled ---
to the picture:
no click (unless i think it needs "pacing", already), improvised,
based upon some motif within the score that i know suits (for development, or closure) the scene,
or some new motif that's already rattling my addled brain.

record it.
listen to it.
repeat if necessary.
then, having chosen something, manipulate it to picture,
finding the tempi, beginning orchestration.

sometimes, i'll back up a step or two, or invert the order of things,
depending upon the circumstances & how happy/unhappy i am w/how it's been proceeding.

hth, but.....
ymmv!


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## impressions (Oct 28, 2011)

that's what i did too...and the deadline is closing in..

it shouldn't stand out as a piece on it's own right?


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## poseur (Oct 28, 2011)

impressions @ Fri Oct 28 said:


> that's what i did too...and the deadline is closing in..
> 
> it shouldn't stand out as a piece on it's own right?



i can't answer that with any certitude;
i don't believe anyone not involved in your film could (or, should) do so, to be frank!

it really depends on the film, the scene's role in the film, who's in the scene,
what's being said, the dialog's "connection" to other scenes in the film
and the director's desires, feelings & instincts.

(not to mention: your own instincts & experience!)

isn't the director regularly getting to see each scene of your score, in advance of completion?
so that he/she might provide his/her music-_notes_ to you?
???
that's more "the norm" to which i'm accustomed.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 28, 2011)

Once you're settled on the emotion(s) you want to convey and any shifts in tone, I think it's a case of doing so as unobtrusively as possible. Nothing busy or loud, simple is usually best. It obviously won't suit everything, but as one example Cinesamples' CineOrch was a joy to work with in dialogue scenes - instant atmosphere, but never got in the way - I'd usually add some violas for unobtrustive melody and job done. Great for stupid deadlines, that.

I think a lot of the art of scoring well is knowing when to take a back seat, and when to leap in centre stage. If you make the music under dialogue too busy, they'll only turn it down in the dub much further and it will sound rubbish (I hate the sound of an orchestra playing ff but played really quietly). Far better to have it simple and with main frequency content away from the midrange / upper midrange, then it can sit at a better level in the final mix.


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## impressions (Oct 28, 2011)

well, i agree with everything and i do my best as i know these guide lines already.
if i'm really doing this right then maybe the main problem is that it's a remote gig. i'm not the composer who talks with the director, directely..usually when i had these kind of problems i'd just annoy the director with what worked for him or not.

this time it's on a more pro level also, so i have to nail it, otherwise it'll go to someone else.

here's an example for this - when the scene starts, the music has to be very spacey, and that makes room for barely 2 chords or some interval impro's, also very very slow, so it can be built up later on. the bottom line is that it doesn't uplift the scene, because i don't have alot of room for notes, doesn't feel musical, like a heavy burden rather than make the viewer get more into the scene.


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## Dave Connor (Oct 28, 2011)

_Dialogue is king._ You may be able to get away with murder under dialogue as guys like Jerry Goldsmith, Alex North and John Williams have (all composers with an operatic gift.) If you step on the dialogue though you aren't doing your job. It's one of the great challenges of film scoring.


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## wst3 (Oct 28, 2011)

excellent points all.

My own approach, influenced heavily by the fact that I tend to work in settings where I am the sound designer, composer, and mixer (and yes, sometimes I even do that on purpose<G>!)

Dialog is key - so all my choices are made to serve the dialog. That doesn't mean that sometimes the dialog is not best served by making the audience work a bit to 'hear' it. That can be a very effective device - used sparingly.

Otherwise I try to compose to support the dialog - through choice of instruments, through choice of notes - whatever it takes. This makes mixing so much easier!!!


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## poseur (Oct 28, 2011)

if there's piano in the score, already.....
you won't need many notes.
just a few, pulled from whichever of the score's themes are keyed-into the actual scene.

you could try:
harmonics from the violi section, ppp, very far away,
w/a few of the aforementioned notes from piano (or, whatever: from your score du jour).....

i've no idea what you're doing, though, nor any clue about either the film or the score,
so i'm completely talking out of my ass.....
ha!

anyways.
doesn't sound so difficult; just delicate.
and "delicate" might need to be within your range, maybe.
"delicate" can still be musical..... and very effective *around dialog*.

as i said:
i'm talking out my ass.

get on with it.
quit chatting about it.

oh!
you may have finished the cue, already!


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 28, 2011)

wst3 @ Fri Oct 28 said:


> excellent points all.
> 
> My own approach, influenced heavily by the fact that I tend to work in settings where I am the sound designer, composer, and mixer (and yes, sometimes I even do that on purpose<G>!)
> 
> ...



Great post - and I too am lucky enough to sometimes score, sound design and mix!


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## Jimbo 88 (Oct 28, 2011)

I do a lot of scoring under dialogue for TV style docs that I've done for 15 years. I have developed a technique I like a lot. I use the Celli and Viola for a pad. I can go parallel 5ths if I'm lazy and it will be OK, but better (more musical) if avoiding them. 

Most of the time I have to stay neutral so what I do is just pick a mode or scale (usually dorian) then not use any 3rds in my voicing(s). Just the root and 5th of the harmony. I can move around or not depending on pacing. If something positive happens I'll jump the tonal center up a minor 3rd. If something bad happens I go down a minor 3rd. (Or any jump in a diminished triad) It does not have to be prepared so it is quick and easy and does not draw to much attention.

Not using any 3rds keeps the emotion out and then when 3rds are re-introduced the impact can be very noticing , Sometimes that is good... sometimes bad...

People think i crazy when I say "just don't use any 3rds", but once they try it and figure it out, it becomes a pretty cool tool and technique to have.


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## impressions (Oct 29, 2011)

i'll let you know you how it went..that is, if it's still interesting to know 

thanks for all your comments folks.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 29, 2011)

I am not a fan of formulaic solutions. Each project is different. Just stay away from mixing parts loudly that are in the same frequency ranges as the voices speaking.


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## poseur (Oct 29, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Oct 29 said:


> I am not a fan of formulaic solutions. Each project is different.






EastWest Lurker @ Sat Oct 29 said:


> Just stay away from mixing parts loudly that are in the same frequency ranges as the voices speaking.



*!!! irony alert !!!*

jk, jay.

there's nothing wrong with a good formula, imo,
when it's being approached w/musical heart, musical intelligence & musical sensitivity,
when it's being approached as either personally-permeable or individualistically-malleable
to the musical goal-at-hand.

indeed,
i think it's an almost indisputable fact-of-life for composers to find & exercise their own "formulae",
as a simple & organic outgrowth of the desire for development of increasingly more personal style.....
..... which film composers might also find useful in attempting to fold-into their range-of-attention,
while writing scores.

ymmv, if you drive.


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## David Story (Oct 29, 2011)

I agree with jimbo on the 5ths approach in cellos and violas.

Poseur is insightful and practical about: the director and your feelings about the scene, use of piano and viola, bits of themes, musical heart, and a myriad of other good things.

Jay has the most practical, universal and non-formulaic advice: stay out of the range of the actors. Don't step on your fellow artists' work. "as if it were one of the instruments in "the band"; "

And the OP. If you find a drone is all the motion a scene can hold, then a drone is enough. I find if the music and picture aren't gelling, it's because I'm doing too much. Or the scene itself isn't working. Then you need to take the lead if the director gets it. Otherwise, drone


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## poseur (Oct 29, 2011)

David Story @ Sat Oct 29 said:


> Jay has the most practical, universal and non-formulaic advice: stay out of the range of the actors. Don't step on your fellow artists' work. *"as if it were one of the instruments in "the band"*; "


yeah..... i said that.
i did;
no, really.

8-)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 29, 2011)

This subject comes up here every once in a while.

And how to stay out of the way of dialog is the first thing they taught us in the first film scoring class I took at Berklee in 1980! It's absolutely fundamental, even more fundamental than writing underscore that doesn't go where the ear predicts it'll go (because that's distracting).

Don Wilkins, who taught that class, had some basic rules for college kids: stay out of the same register, avoid instruments with the same timbre (like sax), and...now I've forgotten the rule he had for not being too active, but I believe it was no more than one attack per second (in the melody).

That about sums it up, although you have to view it in the context of small live ensembles rather than big orchestras, which can be turned down without losing much impact.

I'll have to break out the Earle Hagen book...


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 29, 2011)

The sad thing is, there's a whole generation coming up that thinks it's perfectly normal to have a song _with lyrics _playing at the same time as dialogue, and at _almost the same level_. See the Twilight series, and any number of television shows.


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## RiffWraith (Oct 29, 2011)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun Oct 30 said:


> The sad thing is, there's a whole generation coming up that thinks it's perfectly normal to have a song _with lyrics _playing at the same time as dialogue, and at _almost the same level_.



And you think that this is not normal? What's wrong with you???  

Seriously, when I started in post a long time ago, one of the first things I learned is this:

If you don't have dialogue, you don't have a movie.


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## David Story (Oct 29, 2011)

> Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:08 am wrote:
> The sad thing is, there's a whole generation coming up that thinks it's perfectly normal to have a song with lyrics playing at the same time as dialogue, and at almost the same level.



You can look at this as a technique where dialog is accompaniment to the music, taking the lead in that scene. Or it could be bad mixing.



> I'll have to break out the Earle Hagen book...


Thanks for mentioning Earle, he wrote the first and most concise text on scoring for film.

BTW, John Williams likes to start with a quiet low cello note for dialog.


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## impressions (Oct 30, 2011)

"the band" tip is the best to me, it's something i neglected and it sounds much more "glued" to the picture now. so thanks EW lurker & david


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 30, 2011)

It would be interesting to have a wider discussion here about when and how people have broken the rules. It's sacrosanct in TV that "you must hear the words". The most complaints the BBC receives about any subject is background music being too loud. And its easy for those of us with great monitors and good hearing to sneer, but the complainers are right. If you're hard of hearing and watching on a regular TV, it's a whole different ball game.

However, there have been times when I've argued that hearing the words ISN'T the most important thing. It's for particular situations. Funninly enough, yesterday I attended a seminar which was about how good storytelling in cinema is non-verbal - you can watch a film like The Ladykillers with the sound off completely and can still pretty much follow the whole story (obviously this doesn't apply to every good movie). There was an interesting example of Witness, where whilst shooting director Peter Weir cut all the dialogue in the final scene between Ford and McGillis - he realised it was totally redundant, and the job was much more effectively done by unspoken looks and Maurice Jarre's synths.

There's an emotional scene in On The Waterfront where the dialogue is deliberately obscured by the sound of a ship's horn, which only heightens the emotion. Lost In Translation's famous final scene makes a virtue of not hearing the protagonists, but that's almost gimmicky. There's the nightclub scene in Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me where the dialogue was deliberately buried - this was so controversial that some prints have subtitles, but I totally agree with Lynch's original choice, straining to hear the words was important in that scene. The Social Network had a similar scene, though not quite as extreme, which I liked - indeed David Fincher is known for making the audience work at hearing the dialogue. Personally sometimes this works for me (Social Network) other times it doesn't (Seven).

Of course, these are all exceptions to the rule, and in each case it was the choice of the writer and / or director. As composers, we can never unilaterally make choices like that! But there are definitely moments where - in my own view - a particular line of dialogue is very unimportant to the storytelling, but other elements (sound effects or music) might be more important, and I'm a big fan of trying to represent life - I hate scenes like Paddington Station in the Lion The Witch and the Wardrobe where the sound of the steam trains - which should be deafening - are laid at -30db under the sound of the kids talking at normal level - this was the director's fault really - directon on set and in ADR should be to yell. But even given what they had, I'd personally have pushed the sfx more.

None of this changes our basic advice to stay out of the way. But it's fun, on specific occasions and in collusion with the director, to break the rules.


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## poseur (Oct 30, 2011)

impressions @ Sun Oct 30 said:


> "the band" tip is the best to me, it's something i neglected and it sounds much more "glued" to the picture now. so thanks EW lurker & david



since it was actually me who said that (in the 1st response to your OP),
i'll respond in both david's & jay's stead:
you're welcome.

8-)


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 30, 2011)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Oct 29 said:


> The sad thing is, there's a whole generation coming up that thinks it's perfectly normal to have a song _with lyrics _playing at the same time as dialogue, and at _almost the same level_. See the Twilight series, and any number of television shows.



Yes, and even more sadly, some of them are directing films and producing TV shows. Their knowledge of the history of cinema begins with "Animal House"


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## poseur (Oct 30, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Oct 30 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Oct 29 said:
> 
> 
> > The sad thing is, there's a whole generation coming up that thinks it's perfectly normal to have a song _with lyrics _playing at the same time as dialogue, and at _almost the same level_. See the Twilight series, and any number of television shows.
> ...



or, later!


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## impressions (Oct 30, 2011)

poseur @ Sun Oct 30 said:


> impressions @ Sun Oct 30 said:
> 
> 
> > "the band" tip is the best to me, it's something i neglected and it sounds much more "glued" to the picture now. so thanks EW lurker & david
> ...


sorry poseur, i thought you meant something else by that, as in the general blend. the emphasis of david and jay on the frequencies(which is what a band does automatically) described it better to me.
i did thank everyone a bunch of times, so forgive me 0oD


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## poseur (Oct 30, 2011)

impressions @ Sun Oct 30 said:


> poseur @ Sun Oct 30 said:
> 
> 
> > impressions @ Sun Oct 30 said:
> ...



ah!
all good.
you did quote/paraphrase me, though.....
..... as did david story, who seemed to attribute his quote of my post to jay;
hence my misunderstanding.
i'm not great w/forums, i think.

now, for me:
back to writing w/dialog!


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## David Story (Oct 30, 2011)

impressions @ Sun Oct 30 said:


> ....what a band does automatically)



This is profound, impressions. If we all worked in the same room, like a band, this topic wouldn't be an issue. Isolation is not good for collaboration. Computers and samples make this extreme. We have to struggle when it could be automatic.

Ideally I'd like to improvise while the actors are rehearsing, and find a balance. Like live radio. But it's rare to find actors and musicians with the mutual respect to make that work. I like when there's equality and shared vision.


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## poseur (Oct 30, 2011)

today, i am a curmudgeon!

no, i don't believe that impression's was a profound statement;
in fact, i find it hearteningly positive & idealistic, but just..... wrong.
ime, imo.

bands do _not_ do this "automatically",
as composers for film do not do this automatically.

it's one thing we _might_ learn for ourselves, though, via trial-&-error.

and, thankfully:
no single known technique nor trope is applicable to everything.


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## wst3 (Oct 31, 2011)

poseur @ Sun Oct 30 said:


> and, thankfully:
> no single known technique nor trope is applicable to everything.



ain't that the truth!


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