# NI hints at upcoming subscription model



## mac

It looks like Native Instruments will be going full subscription model, with hints dropped at Native Summit. It'll be interesting to see how they tackle third party kontakt libraries. I'm predicting certain devs who are tight in with NI to include their libraries as part of an extended komplete subscription package.


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## Maxime Luft

Am I the only one here who first read "N hints at upcoming subscription model"?


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## Alex Fraser

Hmmmn. Inevitable I suppose. It must be getting harder to get people to pay for yearly Komplete upgrades. Throw in a membership to the sounds.com site and you can see how it might work. As a bonus for NI, it'll probably stop people buying second hand licenses too.

Hopefully they'll continue to offer the products individually.


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## mouse

What did the hint at Native Summit?


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## J-M

I can see the point to that, but subscription model isn't my thing at all, so I hope they still offer an alternative.


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## Puzzlefactory

Exclusively subscription? Or the option to buy and keep as well?


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## EvilDragon

Nothing is definitive yet. sounds.com is for oneshots and loops, there's no hinting at having the whole Komplete on there...


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## leon chevalier

EDITED: I posted before seeing @EvilDragon answer


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## mac

mouse said:


> What did the hint at Native Summit?



To paraphrase, regarding the future of Native Instruments, they've just started the movement over to a subscription model, software as a service. See here;



He mentions we can then choose only the tools that we need. Hopefully that'll include 3rd party kontakt libraries.


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## Grizzlymv

I'm coming from the IT world, and this make me worried. I'm really not a fan of software as service, as you have no control over the updates provided (it's controlled and enforced by the provider) and usually introduce more problems than it solves them. I'm even less a fan of subscription model which cost way more than one initial purchase over the long term. If they chose to move forward with this, I desperately hope they will keep the option to buy licenses, instead of loaning them (which is what a subscription model is) and let you keep full control over when you update your software. I get it that from the companies perspective, subscription and SaS is the model to go as it's more cost effective on their side, but it's us, the client, who have to deal with the cons that comes with it... Let's hope they do their due diligence and do it properly, for their clients.


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## Quasar

Native Access has already irrevocably ruined NI for me, so I no longer care what they do. I won't be participating anyway unless they (however unlikely) reinstitute support for offline activation of Kontakt libraries, and I don't do subscriptions at all. They are dead to me.

Native Instruments: 1996-2017. RIP.


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## d.healey

Not for me


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## Alex Fraser

EvilDragon said:


> Nothing is definitive yet. sounds.com is for oneshots and loops, there's no hinting at having the whole Komplete on there...


Access to sounds.com as part of your Komplete Kloud monthly deal. Or something.

Hey ho. Not too crazy about subs either, but the world moves on.


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## lokotus

Quasar said:


> Native Access has already irrevocably ruined NI for me, so I no longer care what they do. I won't be participating anyway unless they (however unlikely) reinstitute support for offline activation of Kontakt libraries, and I don't do subscriptions at all. They are dead to me.
> 
> Native Instruments: 1996-2017. RIP.



What did Native Access ruin for you ? I find it hard to say RIP for a widespread market leader...


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## Quasar

lokotus said:


> What did Native Access ruin for you ? I find it hard to say RIP for a widespread market leader...


I didn't ask you to say RIP. Perhaps they are not dead to you. I merely said that they are dead to me.

Re how NA has ruined NI, I have already complained about their loathsome betrayal of offline activation support ad nauseum...


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## Henu

Hell freezes over before I personally start paying subscription for my software.

But if both models (subscription and purchasing) are available for the customer, I think it's a great idea which covers many situations for people working with the software. For example, I use my purchased Slate plugins at my own home studio and at work we have the subscription model. Or as another example, we wanted to test out how much of use we could have for Composers' Cloud at work but later realized it's not the way we want to go there and cancelled our subscription, just buying the ones we found useful.

Subscription model works fine if there's the regular alternative available and I understand that with the current _SUPER WEEKEND SALES OMG DISCOUNT WE'RE CRAZY WITH THESE PRICES_- trend we're facing it's hard to get any profit out of our industry. Just look at Waves for example- who could had believed in 2008 that you could get Gold for €199 or C4 for €25? The prices have come down with a crash, so they want to get another model out.

PS: Am I really the only one here who actually finds Native Access _useful_? If one could only just delete a downloaded library from the list it would be even better. (now it just leaves the library hanging there with the nag for reinstall/ repair/ something in NA.)


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## Quasar

Alex Fraser said:


> Access to sounds.com as part of your Komplete Kloud monthly deal. Or something.
> 
> *Hey ho. Not too crazy about subs either, but the world moves on.*


So you just shrug your shoulders and suggest we eat whatever shit monopolistic power decides we're going to eat? Fuck that.


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## Alex Fraser

Quasar said:


> Re how NA has ruined NI, I have already complained about their loathsome betrayal of offline activation support ad nauseum...


We know..


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## Quasar

Alex Fraser said:


> We know..


Good.


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## SDCP

Henu said:


> Hell freezes over before I personally start paying subscription for my software.


My thought as well.


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## EvilDragon

I do not think NI would go subscription _only_. They would lose an awful lot of hobbyst users, which are (let's face it) probably the biggest part of their userbase.


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## blougui

I'm with EvilDragon on this one - well, should I say I'm always with him, sort of ?


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## Alex Fraser

EvilDragon said:


> I do not think NI would go subscription _only_. They would lose an awful lot of hobbyst users, which are (let's face it) probably the biggest part of their userbase.


About right I reckon. “Komplete” becomes the subscription offering, with individual products available as now.


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## EvilDragon

I see no reason they'd kill off purchasing Komplete as a bundle outright, but we'll see.


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## Grizzlymv

Komplete could make sense as a subscription, as long as NI keep updating it. Could provide value instead of paying an update every year. But I don't see myself paying a subscription for kontakt and all the third parties libraries. Anyway we are not there yet. We will see.


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## Nathanael Iversen

This is really a non-issue for anyone who keeps their NI software up to date. I've effectively been on a subscription model with them for years. They release Komplete and offer an upgrade price. I think its $99. Every time. It is a fixed expense that happens once a year. I use Absynth. I use Kontakt (of course). I use the physical modelling synths in Reaktor. The rest of it, not so much. But Kontakt is the core of my setup. I'd pay $99 for that - and I do - every year.

I bought the Slate everything bundle subscription two years ago - it just renewed a month ago. I had spent $150 or more every year for the two previous. So, for another $150/yr, I just solidified it. They are the only "color" plugins I have, and all I need. I rarely want color in my plugins. So for $150/yr, I ignore all plugin advertisements promising emulation of some vintage gear I've never operated and have no desire to pay the maintenance bills on. I'm sure I could get picky and go on a quest for the perfect tape emulation or something - I'd have preferences. But they wouldn't matter in a music context - and it isn't worth my time. I use the "Red Vari-mu" buss compressor all the time - makes me want to buy a Manley Vari-Mu to hear the real thing. Slate loves my thinking. Waves hates it because I never buy their stuff - even at giveaway prices. But I have a fixed annual expense for "emulation plugins" and they cover enough ground that it simplifies everything for me. Try the Slate plug, if I don't like the color, just take it off and use the built-in EQ or whatever to taste. 

Steinberg upgrades are the same price - every year - its another subscription without carrying that name.

Every big company (publicly traded especially) will move to this model. It is the only one that works long term for mature software that can't iterate radically every year. Most enterprise software fits this description, and it is the only model that works long term, once a market is mature.


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## gsilbers

I'm sure NI will do what adobe and others are doing. 

download the heavy library or parts of komplete and pay monthly to use it. they'll probably release a native access version or some sort of copy protection so if monthly payments stop the software stops. 

They'll do it first with their own software and libraries and the main 3rd party developers they partner with. 
them more will follow and we will subscribing to a whole bunch of sample libraries for $9.99 each or group of them. 

then slowly we will all start buying habits to a la carte libraries and not realizing its costing more as a whole, the big players like NI reap the profits and developers start to get lower returns. 

i don't have a magic ball, but its the normal biz procedure nowadays for software related companies.


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## storyteller

gsilbers said:


> I'm sure NI will do what adobe and others are doing.



No two software company business decisions have infuriated me more than Adobe and Avid. That’s putting it mildly. I do have faith NI will keep its loyal customers happy with the current model though. After all, their success was gifted to them by the demise of Giga who chased the money train off the edge of the Earth... so there’s that.


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## EvilDragon

NI doesn't have the size of Adobe or Avid hence they cannot make any mistakes here. Methinks they are keeping the current "purchase outright" methods along with subscription.


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## ptram

If true, another great software that I will have to stop upgrading... :(


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## GtrString

Well with a portfolio as big as NIs, that was expected. Not a fan of that, but it might be better for me than using 2-3 products out of a large package. On the other hand, I was more hoping for a hardware based solution, where I could have Kontakt and third party libs in a box, to record from. Like guitar software Kemper, Axe FX and Eleven Rack. Maybe software subscription models will bring back demand for hardware options.. it makes it a bit simpler not to be 100% dependent on OS maintanence, DAW performance ect.


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## stacever

Why care? Do they release something really worthy in software during last years? Or something which has no competition. Only Kontakt comes to mind, but current version can be used for a long time. Seems now they are concentrated on hardware mostly.


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## FriFlo

I only hope that I can buy another Komplete Upgrade with Kontakt 6 before they decide to go all in with subscriptions ... The thing is, the younger generation is slowly pulled towards accepting a subscription model as the norm! Being a student it indeed might have its merits, but as - as others here already said - on the long term it is definitively more expensive, especially considering that prices for software have generally continued to come down massively over the last years (and decades). This is our brave new world, where economists, brokers and marketing people are in charge of companies! Great! ... NOT!!!


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## Puzzlefactory

I don’t think Adobe and Avid are as reliant on hobbyist customers as NI is.


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## KV626

EvilDragon said:


> NI doesn't have the size of Adobe or Avid hence they cannot make any mistakes here. Methinks they are keeping the current "purchase outright" methods along with subscription.



I really hope you're right! Upgrading every couple of years when *I* see fit isn't too much to ask imo. As long as the 2 options are there that's fine...


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## EvilDragon

Puzzlefactory said:


> I don’t think Adobe and Avid are as reliant on hobbyist customers as NI is.



Precisely that.


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## gsilbers

storyteller said:


> No two software company business decisions have infuriated me more than Adobe and Avid. That’s putting it mildly. I do have faith NI will keep its loyal customers happy with the current model though. After all, their success was gifted to them by the demise of Giga who chased the money train off the edge of the Earth... so there’s that.



oh man... those two.. yes.. midly is sat most what we can say in a forum. i feel i could punch whomever made those decisions at those companies. like if i walked into an elevator and two guys are talking and they said they where the ones... i would just turn around and punch the guys in the face.


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## gsilbers

EvilDragon said:


> NI doesn't have the size of Adobe or Avid hence they cannot make any mistakes here. Methinks they are keeping the current "purchase outright" methods along with subscription.




dunno... man. i know u like defending them.. but they are slowly getting really big
https://www.billboard.com/articles/...ve-instruments-raises-59-million-emh-partners

so a subscription model would be along the lines of what avid/adobe and most software companies are doing. 

and if i lend someone $60 millions dollars, i wouldn't expect them to be too nice to developers or customers for that matter as long as it brings in the dough w/o affecting the bottom line. 

I'm think they will start phasing out the komplete package bought outright and slowly getting some sort of subscription model to get it. but agree that it will be both methods for a while. 

but again, since i don't have a magic 8 ball, I'm going to think that if they want to do all this, NI would need to change their copy protect methods. similar to how east west does it with the ilok. 
just guessing for now, until they update their copy protection.


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## gsilbers

Puzzlefactory said:


> I don’t think Adobe and Avid are as reliant on hobbyist customers as NI is.



they are making a killing with me subscribing to get photoshop! 
and i only use it every 3 months or so for minor stuff. same with premiere. 

plus, to be able to cancel the subscription you have to call. they make it really hard to unsubscribe. 

and avid has a whole line of intro software and rely on hobbyist for future sales. 
at the same time, who theF%## knows what that company is doing anymore and dunno why it hasn't gone in bankruptcy. man that company sucks. as a company. software its ok-ish. 

but... i don't think NI is competing with these or using these guys' model. there are plenty of other software companies doing the subscription model or variations on it. 

and btw- this whole thing with subscription model for software was adobes idea after they lost in court (and then won) when they sued eBay for reselling used software. they know that in the future courts in US an EU will start saying.. hey.. this is just like any other product and should be available as a used item for resale. but with the subscription model they realize they can bypass that AND make tons of money.


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## dathyr1

I am one of those who does music for a hobby. If they do go subscription for everything and don't offer free updates on my Kontakt and Maschine software, that will put a freeze me getting anymore from Native Instruments. I too hate subscriptions. And as long as third party sellers support the versions of software I would be locked at should this happen. I have plenty of libraries right now to do what I need. Just have to watch and see what goes down.


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## WindcryMusic

dathyr1 said:


> I am one of those who does music for a hobby. If they do go subscription for everything and don't offer free updates on my Kontakt and Maschine software, that will put a freeze me getting anymore from Native Instruments. I too hate subscriptions. And as long as third party sellers support the versions of software I would be locked at should this happen. I have plenty of libraries right now to do what I need. Just have to watch and see what goes down.



That's exactly how I feel. To betray my age for a moment, I'm not too many years away from retirement at this point, and when I do, I intend to keep making music for my own purposes (whether just for pleasure or to possibly earn a few dollars now and then) throughout my retirement, but will certainly not be inclined to pay for a professional subscription to anything. As you say, if that becomes the only way to get new music software from NI (with Kontakt being the really important piece), I'll have to just lock down what I have and use it as is after that date. I'd much prefer to be able to still occasionally add a new library if it looks interesting, even in retirement ... but if I can't, I suppose it would probably take the rest of my life and then some for me to master all of the libraries I already have on hand, so I guess that would be okay.


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## wst3

I have no idea what NI is thinking at the moment, they haven't told me.

Subscription software is the norm in commercial applications. Developers had to rename it "new version" to get it to work in the hobby market space. Which is not completely accurate - one could always stop updating if one so chose.

The bottom line is that companies need recurring revenue - to stay afloat, to plan, to bring out that next new version. The subscription model takes a lot of the guesswork out of running a company. That's what I'd do if I were a software company.

Oddly enough I think Cakewalk came closest to a great subscription service - right before Gibson padlocked the doors.

With the Cakewalk model you purchased a one year subscription which provided you with the current version and all updates for 12 months. You could pay once per year or monthly. At renewal time you could decide if you wanted to continue, and if you didn't continue you kept what you had, the platform and all the updates.

To make it nearly impossible to cancel a subscription they offered monthly updates that included bug fixes (some long overdue) and new features, even some new content. They had my money for the foreseeable future. I would guess that nearly half the monthly updates had something that was a direct benefit to me. That's a pretty good batting average.

I don't know how they kept up that pace, and I still think eventually it would have slackened off a bit. And if it did I could decide to cancel my subscription until the next breakthrough update.

Fair to me, reduces the risk for them - a well thought out program.

Yes, there were pitchforks and torches a-plenty when it was announced, almost as if no one read the fine print, if you can imagine.

In the end I think I figured out that it was $5 less expensive, for me, than the old annual update plan. Win/Win!

Unfortunately, not every developer is that concerned about their customers. If I had to guess I think I'd guess that NI is.


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## WindcryMusic

wst3 said:


> Subscription software is the norm in commercial applications. Developers had to rename it "new version" to get it to work in the hobby market space.



Maybe with Adobe and a few other companies in recent years, but the "norm"? Apparently I'm really out of the loop if that's true. I have a Mac (several in fact) full of commercial software that isn't subscription, at least.


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## EvilDragon

wst3 said:


> That's what I'd do if I were a software company.



NI aren't JUST a software company, so they don't need to force recurring income via subscription-only plans. They have all their hardware to fill in the blanks when software is on the slow uptake.


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## Desire Inspires

Hell yeah. Do it. This will make life so much easier.


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## Desire Inspires

Quasar said:


> So you just shrug your shoulders and suggest we eat whatever shit monopolistic power decides we're going to eat? Fuck that.



So what do you suggest, that is reasonable?


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## Quasar

Desire Inspires said:


> So what do you suggest, that is reasonable?


I suggest that VI enthusiasts should think more in terms of consumer rights, support developers who uphold them and boycott companies and products that violate them.

It's astonishing to me that when some idiot suggests pirating a $49 piece of whatever on Udemy people are so self-righteously and passionately up-in-arms to denounce it, call the FBI, the swat teams, the NSA etc., but when a company like NI flexes their monopolistic power (because of Kontakt) & ends support for offline activation, betraying those of us who honestly purchased libraries under that protocol, people just shrug and accept it...


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## Desire Inspires

Quasar said:


> I suggest that VI enthusiasts should think more in terms of consumer rights, support developers who uphold them and boycott companies and products that violate them.
> 
> It's astonishing to me that when some idiot suggests pirating a $49 piece of whatever on Udemy people are so self-righteously and passionately up-in-arms to denounce it, call the FBI, the swat teams, the NSA etc., but when a company like NI flexes their monopolistic power (because of Kontakt) & ends support for offline activation, betraying those of us who honestly purchased libraries under that protocol, people just shrug and accept it...



I feel you.

But people go against their own self-interests all of the time. That is exactly why companies gain so much power.

I don’t think a critical mass of people will protest. Hackers will find a way to steal, most will just pay the money, while the few who protest will miss out on the software.

I’d say just hold on to what you have purchased from NI and use the hell out of it until it no longer works. I can’t blame NI for going the subscription route because they will only do what helps to increase their bottom line. It isn’t personal; it’s just business. If they refuse and lose enough money, they go out of business and some other big behemoth will do worse!


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## EvilDragon

Again, it is not officially confirmed that Komplete range of products is going subscription just yet, or if it's going subscription ONLY. Everything is still just a conjencture. sounds.com seems to have a different purpose and is geared towards a different userbase - at least for the time being.


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## Quasar

Desire Inspires said:


> I feel you.
> 
> But people go against their own self-interests all of the time. That is exactly why companies gain so much power.
> 
> I don’t think a critical mass of people will protest. Hackers will find a way to steal, most will just pay the money, while the few who protest will miss out on the software.
> 
> I’d say just hold on to what you have purchased from NI and use the hell out of it until it no longer works. I can’t blame NI for going the subscription route because they will only do what helps to increase their bottom line. It isn’t personal; it’s just business. If they refuse and lose enough money, they go out of business and some other big behemoth will do worse!



Every one of your points, alas, is exactly correct. As much as I might wish for some sort of VI consumer watchdog group that had enough clout to bargain with software companies about things such as CP, resale rights, offline activation rights etc., it would take a critical mass of people to make this happen, and so it's not going to. 

I'm certainly not going to let go of what I've already purchased from NI, will continue to buy 3rd party Kontakt Player libraries if I have a compelling reason to do so, and will use that POS Native Access as necessary. My offline workstation has been online for about 35 seconds this year to activate the Chris Hein Solo Cello (great library!). But I will no longer buy NI products per se (I would have gotten Thrill by now if it hadn't been for NA), and will look for open, full Kontakt only whenever this option is available.

My wish is that NI would reconsider and become one of the "good guys" again, as I used to be an enthusiastic supporter. But if not, I can only hope that they fail and go bankrupt, and that a new platform arrives on the scene from developers who respect the rights and wishes of their paying customers.


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## Quasar

EvilDragon said:


> Again, it is not officially confirmed that Komplete range of products is going subscription just yet, or if it's going subscription ONLY. Everything is still just a conjencture. sounds.com seems to have a different purpose and is geared towards a different userbase - at least for the time being.


But they've already proven that they no longer respect their paying customer base. This is not conjecture.


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## mc_deli

SaaS, especially cloud-based SaaS is sh*te for the user. You are basically being fleeced, while agreeing to take an unfinished product, total surveillance, at the mercy of feature withdrawals, forced upgrades for software and hardware, risk of instant obsolescence, and risk that the company and software can die anytime ruining your business/livelihood. Resist at all costs.


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## d.healey

mc_deli said:


> SaaS, especially cloud-based SaaS is sh*te for the user. You are basically being fleeced, while agreeing to take an unfinished product, total surveillance, at the mercy of feature withdrawals, forced upgrades for software and hardware, risk of instant obsolescence, and risk that the company and software can die anytime ruining your business/livelihood. Resist at all costs.


+1


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## dzilizzi

I am not a fan of subscription services. That said, I didn't mind Cakewalk's because I owned the software if I decided to stop paying, and if I decided to start again, I wasn't penalized like Avid does. The problem with Avid is if you stop annual updates, you have to pay full price to start again. 

I like EWQL's version. Pay if you want to use it, don't pay when you don't need it. Buy it if you want to own it. If you are a business, it makes more sense to use the subscription because you don't have to worry about depreciation, it is an expense. But for a hobbyist? I don't want to keep buying stuff I already own. And it will really p*ss me off if I can't use all my Kontakt libraries - most of which are not from NI.


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## Alex Fraser

I'm not a huge fan of the subscription all you can eat model.
But a long time Kompete user who maybe updates once every three/four years is not the ideal NI customer anymore.
There's a bunch of upcoming producers and composers for whom Native Access, subscriptions and online only is the absolute norm. Why not sell to those guys?


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## wst3

WindcryMusic said:


> Maybe with Adobe and a few other companies in recent years, but the "norm"? Apparently I'm really out of the loop if that's true. I have a Mac (several in fact) full of commercial software that isn't subscription, at least.



Apologies - commercial was not the right word. I'm not sure what is, but I'm referring to the operating systems, databases, enterprise resource tools, customer management tools, etc that are used by large businesses. These all require annual maintenance contracts, which is just another way of saying subscriptions.


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## Daniel James

gsilbers said:


> they are making a killing with me subscribing to get photoshop!
> and i only use it every 3 months or so for minor stuff. same with premiere.
> 
> plus, to be able to cancel the subscription you have to call. they make it really hard to unsubscribe.
> 
> and avid has a whole line of intro software and rely on hobbyist for future sales.
> at the same time, who theF%## knows what that company is doing anymore and dunno why it hasn't gone in bankruptcy. man that company sucks. as a company. software its ok-ish.
> 
> but... i don't think NI is competing with these or using these guys' model. there are plenty of other software companies doing the subscription model or variations on it.
> 
> and btw- this whole thing with subscription model for software was adobes idea after they lost in court (and then won) when they sued eBay for reselling used software. they know that in the future courts in US an EU will start saying.. hey.. this is just like any other product and should be available as a used item for resale. but with the subscription model they realize they can bypass that AND make tons of money.



I was like you mate with photoshop, only used it on specific things and always a few months apart. Then trying to cancel was a ball ache! you should check this app out, If you are comfortable with photoshop this will feel second nature. It also loads psd files so you wont lose out on old work (its not always exact but I have had only like 1 file out of a few hundred look odd)

https://affinity.serif.com/en-us/photo/

-DJ


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## tmhuud

Interesting. Thanks for the Affinity rec. Pixelmator Pro
http://www.pixelmator.com/pro/ is also a great alternative to PS. I do have an Adobe PS subscription and am only a weekend warrior but one interesting thing I think NI has to prepare for is the loss of a lot of their weekend warriors and that also helps spawn more viable and competitive products. We'll see!


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## WindcryMusic

wst3 said:


> Apologies - commercial was not the right word. I'm not sure what is, but I'm referring to the operating systems, databases, enterprise resource tools, customer management tools, etc that are used by large businesses. These all require annual maintenance contracts, which is just another way of saying subscriptions.



Okay ... you mean service bureau software. Yes, of course that's been the case, and I know that well because I've spent most of my non-music career as a software developer for such companies. The difference between a service bureau and a shrinkwrap software company like NI is that, when a company licenses a service bureau's products on an annual basis, they also have a direct line to us for direct, often daily, one-on-one support whenever they have problems, whether that's identifying for them what they might be doing wrong, or identifying a bug and coming up with a workaround or a patch for them, or adding a new feature that they (and only they) need. So that money goes for a level of direct and immediate support that even the best shrinkwrap software company doesn't begin to approach.


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## EvilDragon

Quasar said:


> But they've already proven that they no longer respect their paying customer base. This is not conjecture.



Yes it is. Until there's an official NI statement, everything's a conjencture.


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## JPQ

if only subscribition model then i must think what i do my orchestral etc stuff. i simply cannot afford another subscription model (i feel not even cheap like 9euros per month) to Composer Cloud X. then i must think carefully how i going work. Is hard wait what NI going do and what Spitfire going do.


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## Quasar

EvilDragon said:


> Yes it is. Until there's an official NI statement, everything's a conjencture.


Subscription model, sure, it's conjecture. But my point is that by betraying offline activation support, they've already demonstrated a willingness to shit on those of us paying customers who maintain offline workstations and bought NI products under those conditions.

So whatever or however subscriptions come to pass or not, we can already know that their decision-making will be not be guided by fairness or regard for their for their customer base. They have already proven that they don't care about that.


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## Alex Fraser

Quasar said:


> Subscription model, sure, it's conjecture. But my point is that by betraying offline activation support, they've already demonstrated a willingness to shit on those of us paying customers who maintain offline workstations and bought NI products under those conditions..


Oh, come on. You and the other five people. It's 2018, mate.
NI owe you nothing in this regard.


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## dzilizzi

Well, I don't think they can take away what you already own. So for me, that would mean I'm stuck at KU 11. Which should be fine for me for a few years, unless the upgrade to Kontakt 6 makes new stuff not work with old Kontakt. Other than a few Sonokinetic libraries which require 5.7, I think most of my stuff was compatible with 4 or 5 version. So if they go subscription only, I think they will lose sales from a lot of us who can work with the current products. 

But you know, there are also companies like Slate or EWQL, where you can buy the products or do the subscription. When I look at it, the successful ones have a lot of expensive products that most would not use/buy because the cost is too much for the amount they use them. The subscription is aimed towards the working musician/composer who can charge the cost to the customer more easily because you know exactly how much a month's worth of cost of product is. But unless they offer a whole lot of other companies products, I don't think they have enough to do the subscription method well.


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## Quasar

Alex Fraser said:


> Oh, come on. You and the other five people. It's 2018, mate.
> NI owe you nothing in this regard.


You don't have to care about digital age privacy rights. You don't have to care about human rights at all. That's entirely up to you...


----------



## Alex Fraser

Quasar said:


> You don't have to care about digital age privacy rights. You don't have to care about human rights at all. That's entirely up to you...


I know I shouldn't, but OK, I'll bite.
How on earth is opening Native Access to update software a strike against human rights? You just click the button..


----------



## Quasar

Alex Fraser said:


> I know I shouldn't, but OK, I'll bite.
> How on earth is opening Native Access to update software a strike against human rights? You just click the button..


Because it forces my DAW PC to be a globally-connected communications device when I do not want it to be. Not to mention that going online subjects one to the whole cyberspace scene and all that it entails, from run-of-the-mill Trojan horses to the need for regular security patch updates to potentially crippling CPU microcode revisions.

(With the latest dystopic Information Age fiasco involving Meltdown & Spectre, you can read forum posts on gearslutz or wherever in which large numbers of people are freaked out, some even suggesting that they get a cheap computer for the web and put their DAW machines offline. But however that particular soap opera plays out, when it comes to the vicissitudes of the global internet, it's always something...)

Before Native Access, my DAW was 100% offline, but I can no longer do this without completely locking myself out of an ecosystem that I've already vested in precisely because it did allow for remaining offline. This is a betrayal of customer trust and a crime against human rights, and I resent the living hell out of it.

What if you wanted to keep a diary and went to a bookstore and bought a blank journal notebook, only to later find out that the business owners decided they needed to come to your house and take a look though your diary every so often, to make sure you were using the diary as intended? Would this not bother you? Even if they promised not to spy on the actual content of your journal entries? Are you really okay with that?


----------



## EvilDragon

Quasar said:


> and a crime against human rights



Absolutely not.

You should really get off your high horse on this one. Do you expect NI to support old operating systems for <1% of the userbase that _might or might not _still be using them? Of course not. Same thing is with offline activation. They simply don't have a big enough chunk of userbase that is offline with their DAWs that warrants supporting that. End of story. Continue being butthurt about it, it will change exactly nothing. You can just annoy everybody else with your antics that will, once again, change nothing. You can vote with your wallet, which will, again, change nothing, because there are thousands of other people that are fine with being online and they will keep on purchasing NI products (*and hardware*, which is a BIG part of NI's revenue, so as long as that sells, they aren't going bankrupt like you might wish).


----------



## Puzzlefactory

Quasar said:


> Because it forces my DAW PC to be a globally-connected communications device when I do not want it to be. Not to mention that going online subjects one to the whole cyberspace scene and all that it entails, from run-of-the-mill Trojan horses to the need for regular security patch updates to potentially crippling CPU microcode revisions.
> 
> (With the latest dystopic Information Age fiasco involving Meltdown & Spectre, you can read forum posts on gearslutz or wherever in which large numbers of people are freaked out, some even suggesting that they get a cheap computer for the web and put their DAW machines offline. But however that particular soap opera plays out, when it comes to the vicissitudes of the global internet, it's always something...)
> 
> Before Native Access, my DAW was 100% offline, but I can no longer do this without completely locking myself out of an ecosystem that I've already vested in precisely because it did allow for remaining offline. This is a betrayal of customer trust and a crime against human rights, and I resent the living hell out of it.
> 
> What if you wanted to keep a diary and went to a bookstore and bought a blank journal notebook, only to later find out that the business owners decided they needed to come to your house and take a look though your diary every so often, to make sure you were using the diary as intended? Would this not bother you? Even if they promised not to spy on the actual content of your journal entries? Are you really okay with that?



This seems like an example of extreme paranoia.


----------



## Quasar

EvilDragon said:


> Absolutely not.
> 
> You should really get off your high horse on this one. Do you expect NI to support old operating systems for <1% of the userbase that _might or might not _still be using them? Of course not. Same thing is with offline activation. They simply don't have a big enough chunk of userbase that is offline with their DAWs that warrants supporting that. End of story. Continue being butthurt about it, it will change exactly nothing. You can just annoy everybody else with your antics that will, once again, change nothing.


Groundhog Day ED. LOL. I have said I'll stop harping on this foul crime, this grotesque and profound violation of human rights perpetrated by NI. But when people (as Alex said "bite") ask me what I'm talking about, I feel obliged to explain the human rights component of the issue, which is terribly important to me.


----------



## Ryan99

Now that people have cars, does companies need continuing supporting the few traveling by horses? Same apply here.


----------



## EvilDragon

It's not a crime against human rights, period. You can still use what you bought, you can still activate those products that you own offlline via Service Center (which is still available for download and that WILL remain to be the case in order to support all old and discontinued products). NI owes you nothing regarding their newer products, though. Their EULA doesn't mention they are obliged to offer offline activation forever for all their current products.


----------



## Quasar

Puzzlefactory said:


> This seems like an example of extreme paranoia.


Not at all. Practically speaking I am easily able to plug a USB WiFi adapter into my workstation and go online without any psycho-emotional disturbance whatsoever, except for anger over the principle of the thing.

In my regular life my attitude about internet threats & security leans quite the other way, toward a lazy, laissez-faire "whatever" approach that may even boarder on negligence. Though I don't particularly like having to do all of the Windows Update etc. crapola that one must routinely do to keep a seldom-online computer internet-ready, it's really about the principle of the right to have an offline, private workstation, and nothing else.


----------



## Puzzlefactory

This talk of violating human rights is nonsense and belittles and cheapens actual human rights violations.

These are luxuary items, there’s no necessity to own either a computer or a software sampler, so human rights play no part in it what so ever.


----------



## EvilDragon

Puzzlefactory said:


> This talk of violating human rights is nonsense and belittles and cheapens actual human rights violations.
> 
> These are luxury items, there’s no necessity to own either a computer or a software sampler, so human rights play no part in it what so ever.



Absolutely correct.


----------



## Quasar

EvilDragon said:


> It's not a crime against human rights, period. You can still use what you bought, you can still activate those products that you own offlline via Service Center (which is still available for download and that WILL remain to be the case in order to support all old and discontinued products). NI owes you nothing regarding their newer products, though. Their EULA doesn't mention they are obliged to offer offline activation forever for all their current products.


EULAS never mention anything at all except for the legal & liability benefits of the companies that author them.


----------



## gsilbers

Daniel James said:


> I was like you mate with photoshop, only used it on specific things and always a few months apart. Then trying to cancel was a ball ache! you should check this app out, If you are comfortable with photoshop this will feel second nature. It also loads psd files so you wont lose out on old work (its not always exact but I have had only like 1 file out of a few hundred look odd)
> 
> https://affinity.serif.com/en-us/photo/
> 
> -DJ



hmm.. interesting. i was demoing photoshop element but this on is half the price. ill check it out thanks!


----------



## EvilDragon

Quasar said:


> EULAS never mention anything at all except for the legal & liability benefits of the companies that author them.



Well not exactly. You should read NI's, it also says what the user is allowed to do under certain circumstances.


----------



## Quasar

Puzzlefactory said:


> This talk of violating human rights is nonsense and belittles and cheapens actual human rights violations.
> 
> These are luxuary items, there’s no necessity to own either a computer or a software sampler, so human rights play no part in it what so ever.


False argument on several levels:

1) Country clubs and golf courses are luxury items that no one needs, yet laws were eventually passed forbidding discrimination at those facilities.
2) Just because people are starving in the world, this unfortunate fact does not negate the legitimacy of the complaint that you did not get what you ordered in a fancy restaurant.
3) The creative pursuit and the tools involved therein (whatever they may be) can be asserted to be a fundamental aspect of the human condition.


----------



## Pier

Since I started using UHE synths I've stopped using any Ni synth.

I use Kontakt because that's what romplers makers use, but quite frankly I'm not so fond of Kontakt.

There should be a free and open source rompler engine that companies like Spitfire should use. Depending on proprietary software to run a library is a terrible idea. What if NI decides that it won't keep on updating Kontakt or what if NI runs out of business? We couldn't even use the samples since these are encoded in a proprietary format.


----------



## Quasar

Pier Bover said:


> Since I started using UHE synths I've stopped using any Ni synth.
> 
> I use Kontakt because that's what romplers makers use, but quite frankly I'm not so fond of Kontakt.
> 
> There should be a free and open source rompler engine that companies like Spitfire should use. Depending on proprietary software to run a library is a terrible idea. What if NI decides that it won't keep on updating Kontakt or what if NI runs out of business? We couldn't even use the samples since these are encoded in a proprietary format.



This monopolistic aspect of Kontakt and the dependency of so many 3rd party developers and products on the whims of a single company has disturbed me for a long time, even before NI introduced the Native Access retrogression. I agree that it's most unhealthy for the state of digital-age audio and music creation.


----------



## EvilDragon

Well, many challengers appeared but none were good enough (for this or that reason) to overthrow Kontakt, soooo... Kontakt is not monopolistic because NI wants it to be that way - NI doesn't force developers to develop solely for Kontakt! That decision is entirely up to the developer! There are plenty of other options that can be used, but none can compare with the ecosystem that was created by 3rd party devs throughout the past decade...


----------



## Quasar

EvilDragon said:


> Well, many challengers appeared but none were good enough (for this or that reason) to overthrow Kontakt, soooo... Kontakt is not monopolistic because NI wants it to be that way - NI doesn't force developers to develop solely for Kontakt! That decision is entirely up to the developer! There are plenty of other options that can be used, but none can compare with the ecosystem that was created by 3rd party devs throughout the past decade...


This is absolutely true. I think Kontakt is the greatest single invention in computer audio history. It's the Nobel Prize winner for contributions to sample library development. I admire the achievement and the adore the platform, which just makes me all the more heartbroken that they've broken with their tradition of righteous CP.


----------



## EvilDragon

"Righteous", LOL.


----------



## Puzzlefactory

Quasar said:


> False argument on several levels:
> 
> 1) Country clubs and golf courses are luxury items that no one needs, yet laws were eventually passed forbidding discrimination at those facilities.
> 2) Just because people are starving in the world, this unfortunate fact does not negate the legitimacy of the complaint that you did not get what you ordered in a fancy restaurant.
> 3) The creative pursuit and the tools involved therein (whatever they may be) can be asserted to be a fundamental aspect of the human condition.



1) You’re not being discriminated against. You’re turning up to the course in a sealed black box and are expecting course owners to accommodate you. 

2) Not getting what you ordered is not a violation of human rights. At worst it’s just poor customer service.

3) you can be creative with an accoustic guitar. Hell you can be creative with a pair of spoons. You don’t have to have a computer and copy of Kontakt to write music.


----------



## tav.one

gsilbers said:


> they are making a killing with me subscribing to get photoshop!
> and i only use it every 3 months or so for minor stuff.



You need Affinity Photo
Kissed Photoshop goodbye when I bought this, does everything PS can and more.

Edit: Checked that Daniel James mentioned it already, so I'll say +1 to Affinity Photo


----------



## dzilizzi

Quasar said:


> Because it forces my DAW PC to be a globally-connected communications device when I do not want it to be. Not to mention that going online subjects one to the whole cyberspace scene and all that it entails, from run-of-the-mill Trojan horses to the need for regular security patch updates to potentially crippling CPU microcode revisions.
> 
> (With the latest dystopic Information Age fiasco involving Meltdown & Spectre, you can read forum posts on gearslutz or wherever in which large numbers of people are freaked out, some even suggesting that they get a cheap computer for the web and put their DAW machines offline. But however that particular soap opera plays out, when it comes to the vicissitudes of the global internet, it's always something...)
> 
> Before Native Access, my DAW was 100% offline, but I can no longer do this without completely locking myself out of an ecosystem that I've already vested in precisely because it did allow for remaining offline. This is a betrayal of customer trust and a crime against human rights, and I resent the living hell out of it.
> 
> What if you wanted to keep a diary and went to a bookstore and bought a blank journal notebook, only to later find out that the business owners decided they needed to come to your house and take a look though your diary every so often, to make sure you were using the diary as intended? Would this not bother you? Even if they promised not to spy on the actual content of your journal entries? Are you really okay with that?


This is something that really isn't a problem. If you do not surf the web or open email on your computer, the chances you will get a virus from using Native Access or anything like it is pretty much zero. Yeah, you could be hacked being online. But seriously - why would anyone bother? They hack companies where they get money or information they can sell for a lot of money. You won't even get one from opening the browser to go to a specific site to download product. So this isn't an issue. 

Now, I do agree that there should be options in case your studio isn't wired. I can totally get that the room you use may not be wired. Why should you have to buy a wireless card to run a program?


----------



## rrichard63

Alex Fraser said:


> Oh, come on. You and the other five people. It's 2018, mate.
> NI owe you nothing in this regard.


Although I don't like Quasar's belligerent tone, I do agree with his basic point. When I buy software I expect it to continue to work as advertised on the day I bought it. "Work as advertised" includes the procedures for maintenance and upgrades. The fact that this is not a trivial issue is well illustrated by the current Meltdown/Specter affair, which is causing many of us to rethink how our music gear is (or is not) networked.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Quasar said:


> Because it forces my DAW PC to be a globally-connected communications device when I do not want it to be. Not to mention that going online subjects one to the whole cyberspace scene and all that it entails, from run-of-the-mill Trojan horses to the need for regular security patch updates to potentially crippling CPU microcode revisions.
> 
> (With the latest dystopic Information Age fiasco involving Meltdown & Spectre, you can read forum posts on gearslutz or wherever in which large numbers of people are freaked out, some even suggesting that they get a cheap computer for the web and put their DAW machines offline. But however that particular soap opera plays out, when it comes to the vicissitudes of the global internet, it's always something...)
> 
> Before Native Access, my DAW was 100% offline, but I can no longer do this without completely locking myself out of an ecosystem that I've already vested in precisely because it did allow for remaining offline. This is a betrayal of customer trust and a crime against human rights, and I resent the living hell out of it.
> 
> What if you wanted to keep a diary and went to a bookstore and bought a blank journal notebook, only to later find out that the business owners decided they needed to come to your house and take a look though your diary every so often, to make sure you were using the diary as intended? Would this not bother you? Even if they promised not to spy on the actual content of your journal entries? Are you really okay with that?



It's simple...stay off the porn sites 

Seriously, your odds of getting hacked, or infected by a virus/trojan for this type of thing is slim to none.


----------



## synthpunk

Like anything successful, eventually people in a room sitting on there brains and bank accounts will try to ruin it.



Quasar said:


> This is absolutely true. I think Kontakt is the greatest single invention in computer audio history. It's the Nobel Prize winner for contributions to sample library development. I admire the achievement and the adore the platform, which just makes me all the more heartbroken that they've broken with their tradition of righteous CP.


----------



## Puzzlefactory

rrichard63 said:


> Although I don't like Quasar's belligerent tone, I do agree with his basic point. When I buy software I expect it to continue to work as advertised on the day I bought it. "Work as advertised" includes the procedures for maintenance and upgrades. The fact that this is not a trivial issue is well illustrated by the current Meltdown/Specter affair, which is causing many of us to rethink how our music gear is (or is not) networked.



The version of the software you bought a license for will continue to work “as advertised”. But future updates and upgrades aren’t the same version.


----------



## mc_deli

Alex Fraser said:


> There's a bunch of brainwashed loons who know no better for whom subscriptions and online only is the absolute norm. Why not sell to those guys?


There, fixed


----------



## Alex Fraser

mc_deli said:


> There, fixed


Mate. Don't edit my quotes to insult and imply the exact opposite of what I originally stated.


----------



## Daniel James

EvilDragon said:


> Yes it is. Until there's an official NI statement, everything's a conjencture.



Do you work for NI? In any capacity at all?

You post in every NI specific thread and are always seemingly more informed than most!

Its no big deal if you are, just would be good to know. No matter what forum the NI thread is on, even their own support forums...there you are XD

-DJ


----------



## EvilDragon

Daniel James said:


> Do you work for NI? In any capacity at all?
> 
> You post in every NI specific thread and are always seemingly more informed than most!



I just beta test some products for NI (and all that information is of course behind an NDA). Not formally employed. I know about NI going subscription with Komplete as much as you guys - we're all throwing conjenctures like hot potatoes, however I can assume based on my experiences with NI folks that they do care about their customers (regardless of what Quasar says! ), and I would say they are extremely aware of the negative impact going subscription-only would cause. Hence I have a pretty firm belief that even if Komplete goes subscription, you'd still be able to purchase products outright, a la EastWest. Time will tell, though.


----------



## mc_deli

Alex Fraser said:


> Please edit my quotes to imply the exact opposite of what I originally stated.




Long day, sorry


----------



## Daniel James

EvilDragon said:


> I just beta test some products for NI (and all that information is of course behind an NDA). Not formally employed. I know about NI going subscription with Komplete as much as you guys - we're all throwing conjenctures like hot potatoes, however I can assume based on my experiences with NI folks that they do care about their customers (regardless of what Quasar says! ), and I would say they are extremely aware of the negative impact going subscription-only would cause. Hence I have a pretty firm belief that even if Komplete goes subscription, you'd still be able to purchase products outright, a la EastWest. Time will tell, though.



Haha Its all good mate. In that case I applaud your dedication to them! I literally see you everywhere NI (wasn't suggesting it was a bad thing I just assumed you had to be getting something out of it xD)

-DJ


----------



## EvilDragon

Not sure if applause is in order. I do have a bit of vested interest in seeing NI (and Kontakt in particular) alive for a long, long time to come - I do base my whole living on just doing Kontakt scripting.


----------



## lpuser

Ohhh, Native Instruments again :-( Unfortunately I am amongst those who are always stupid enough to buy into their stuff just to being frustrated over and over. After watching many reviews on Komplete Kontrol keyboards, I sadly bought the S61 MK2 when I needed a new master keyboard. And again, NI is frustrating me as a user (and I wonder if all these hyper-positive reviews are essentially paid ones).

Apart from the usual "cost-cutting" by not adding a power supply and probably one of the shortest USB cables, the keyboard does simply have so many limitations and issues that I am thinking of reselling it each and every day. The keybed is simply bad (even compared to a 20+ year old vintage synth), Komplete Kontrol is not even anywhere promised in the promo videos and the worst of all is that Kontakt cannot communicate directly with the keyboard, making light guide redundant if you don´t want to load the KK plugin first and then run Kontakt in it. This really gets me shaking my head.

The Touch Stip looks nice and I cannot (!) use the Mod wheel / Pitch wheel without always activating the strip with the palm of my hand. This leads to sound changes bla-bla-bla, unless I decide to completely deactivate it.

And then the guys in the video refer to Adobe - which is NOT at all a great example for the consumer but ONLY for Adobe! There are soooo many people around the world being hyper-frustrated with Adobe and all their price raises - and they simply cannot stop using these products just yet.


----------



## EvilDragon

lpuser said:


> The keybed is simply bad (even compared to a 20+ year old vintage synth)



The keybed is the same premium Fatar synth action as found in other synths, like Waldorf Blofeld, Virus TI2, etc.



lpuser said:


> the worst of all is that Kontakt cannot communicate directly with the keyboard



That's not new with mkII keyboards, mkI also worked that way. It was intended to work that way.


----------



## Puzzlefactory

Yeah, I have a mk1 s88 and you can only control Kontakt via the KK wrapper. 

That is a little annoying that’s the only the way it works.


----------



## mac

lpuser said:


> The Touch Stip looks nice and I cannot (!) use the Mod wheel / Pitch wheel without always activating the strip with the palm of my hand. This leads to sound changes bla-bla-bla, unless I decide to completely deactivate it.



Haha, I thought this was just me, it drives me crazy. Sometimes I sit there for 10 minutes trying everything to get the sound back on, and then realise...


----------



## EvilDragon

Yeah the touchstrip being below the wheels forces you to place your left hand a bit differently. It's not impossible to operate the wheels without triggering the touchstrip, but needs a bit of practice. However, this is a pretty usual layout of controls if you see other synths which have ribbons - they are very often below the wheels too (Korg, for example).


----------



## Quasar

EvilDragon said:


> ...however I can assume based on my experiences with NI folks that they do care about their customers...



You can say that, but Native Instruments' actions have made it demonstrably clear that they do NOT care about their customers who wish to maintain offline workstations. This is an empirically verifiable and irrefutable material fact.


----------



## Ryan99

Quasar said:


> You can say that, but Native Instruments' actions have made it demonstrably clear that they do NOT care about their customers who wish to maintain offline workstations. This is an empirically verifiable and irrefutable material fact.


They also showed that they do not care about people who wish to maintain using Windows 98. No support for them!


----------



## EvilDragon

Quasar said:


> You can say that, but Native Instruments' actions have made it demonstrably clear that they do NOT care about their customers who wish to maintain offline workstations. This is an empirically verifiable and irrefutable material fact.



I wouldn't bend over backwards for less than 1% of my userbase if I were NI either.


----------



## Quasar

Ryan99 said:


> They also showed that they do not care about people who wish to maintain using Windows 98. No support for them!



Wow, to actually compare privacy considerations with the technologically-driven short lifespans of computer OS's... Unfuckingbelievable...


----------



## Ryan99

Quasar said:


> Wow, to actually compare privacy considerations with the technologically-driven short lifespans of computer OS's... Unfuckingbelievable...


It’s less far off than comparing this situation to human rights... Anyway, I understand your frustration but companies stop supporting some older things after a while.


----------



## Quasar

Ryan99 said:


> It’s less far off than comparing this situation to human rights... Anyway, I understand your frustration but companies stop supporting some older things after a while.


There is nothing "old" about privacy rights.

EDIT: But I'm done. I have a friend who says you can't argue with a zeitgeist, and corporofascism is most definitely in style. Peace out.


----------



## lpuser

EvilDragon said:


> The keybed is the same premium Fatar synth action as found in other synths, like Waldorf Blofeld, Virus TI2, etc.



That´s what NI keeps saying ... but as sorry as I am, this does not make it any better. I have more than enough synths from the 80s to the 2000s to compare with and Komplete has by far the worst keybed. I personally don´t care if it´s a Fatar or not, the keys have rough edges and are not even on par with the good old Korg T3.



EvilDragon said:


> That's not new with mkII keyboards, mkI also worked that way. It was intended to work that way.



Absolutely understand this, my only problem is that I did ignore mk1 and just came on board after the release of mk2. That said, from a technical point of view, this limitation is ridiculous. Sending a command to highlight the leds cannot be rocket science ... it´s just - once more - that NI simply does not care.

From the outside, AKAIs VIP softwar seems much more aimed at musicians (unfortunately I did not discover it before). Let alone the mangement of all the presets which are not NKS compatible keeps me shaking my head. As somebody who owns a large collection of synth presets, samples etc. I can hardly use MK2, because at leat 80% of the presets will not show up anywhere - and requires me to load and save each one manually to a "users" area ... oh well.


----------



## EvilDragon

lpuser said:


> I personally don´t care if it´s a Fatar or not, the keys have rough edges and are not even on par with the good old Korg T3.



No rough edges on my mkII... It's damn near identical keybed to the Waldorf Blofeld keyboard (which I know very well and love).


----------



## lpuser

EvilDragon said:


> No rough edges on my mkII... It's damn near identical keybed to the Waldorf Blofeld keyboard (which I know very well and love).



Thank you for checking. This is weird. Maybe something with my particular unit? I can feel it, everyone else says it too and compared to T3, JD-800, JX-3P etc. a vast difference. I have already purchased sand paper in order to smooth the nasty rough edges underneath.


----------



## greggybud

I started with NI and Reaktor in 1999. The "manual" hardly made any sense, but the people were on fire about their product! They were very communicative, responsive, understanding, and most of all...so very innovative. I put aside Dave Smiths participation in Seer Systems Reality and never looked back.

But along the way the company grew because they were just...really good. Even with it's shortcomings KORE was a sound designers dream. Unfortunately some good people like Stephan Schmitt, and James Walker Hall left NI and the company abandoned KORE. Today NI is huge and appeals to the masses, so it's apparently time now for the subscription option?

For myself, I have been on the annual "subscription" of $99 choosing to update Komplete every other year. But to be honest, I'm not even sure their future offerings are even going to be worth $4.12 per month to me. My _perception_ of NI these days is a light-guided Komplete Kontrol with endless expansion and sample pack offerings, where they outsource more and more, with most development going to Maschine and it's relatives.

If Sonic Arts Freestyle (Isn't that James Walker Halls baby?) adds the morphing feature the way KORE did, consider my $99 NI "subscription" canceled as I would rather pursue other more innovative options.


----------



## Mike Connelly

EvilDragon said:


> It was intended to work that way.



Then they botched it from the beginning. I hope Kontakt6/Komplete 12 fixes that.

And a number of serious piano keyboard players I work with tried it, none liked the feel of the keyboard even though it was claimed to be the same as ones they liked.


----------



## EvilDragon

Mike Connelly said:


> Then they botched it from the beginning. I hope Kontakt6/Komplete 12 fixes that.



It won't be "fixed". It's as such by design and it won't be changed. Just forget it


----------



## Mike Connelly

EvilDragon said:


> It won't be "fixed". It's as such by design and it won't be changed. Just forget it



As long as they don't improve that, there's no way I can recommend those keyboards. Just not worth the extra trouble to have the lights. I heard you the first time, if it is by design that's a bad design and they should reconsider it.


----------



## Garry

No rough edges here either (s88 mkI); the keybed is the the aspect of the keyboard I like least (ok, second only to the terrible idea of the modwheel/pitch bend as a touch strip - truly terrible idea IMHO), but I’ve recently really come to appreciate the KK integration, and on that basis, would recommend it, on balance.


----------



## greggybud

EvilDragon said:


> I can assume based on my experiences with NI folks that they do care about their customers (regardless of what Quasar says! ),



They didn't care very much when they abandoned Kore. Or a couple other prior IMO great products. Yes, I'm still a bit "butt-hurt" about Kore...at least until James Walker Hall (a former brilliant NI employee) adds morphing to FreeStyle.

IMO what NI does care about is targeting their products toward a much wider prosumer market than what they did their first 15 years. The NI money is in endless samples, Maschine, the DJ line, and their hardware. Not so much innovation any longer....sad to say. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that. If I were the NI CEO I would want to maximize my profits too.

I think it's just a matter of time before NI offers the option...

Waves just did that today...

https://www.waves.com/bundles/flex


----------



## EvilDragon

Actually whoever I asked from NI, they all very much miss Kore, but it seems that it just wasn't profitable and was a development timesink.


----------



## greggybud

EvilDragon said:


> Actually whoever I asked from NI, they all very much miss Kore, but it seems that it just wasn't profitable and was a development timesink.



What you say is a fact. This was very obvious during the Kore era

Without going into multiple specifics, Kore was relatively difficult. For me, it took a lot of time to really learn all the quirks. But the eventual results of all those hours of learning manifested huge benefits...especially with sound design and morphing automation that I'm still reaping today however less and less as time progresses. With the exception of James Walker Halls FreeStyle, any Kore substitutes today is a joke. The Kore comparable suggestions from people today even demonstrate that NI had a marketing problem with Kore.

My perception of NI from the start (I could be totally wrong) was a group of people who had great passion over their products. But some of their individual tools, while being very cutting-edge or innovative, and examined alone, would always be financially unprofitable. Kontakt was the cash cow. Looking at Reaktor, Reaktor Sessions, and Dynamo, was Reaktor ever profitable on it's own? If it was, I'm guessing it took years. 

But, when you look at borrowed features taken from Reaktor or Kore...where I think browser concepts and a few other features originated, Kore...a big money looser, greatly contributed to the success of Maschine.

Today, my perception of NI is very different. I'm not at all surprised they would offer a subscription plan. After all, many of us have voluntarily been on the pseudo-subscription plan for years.


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## Mike Connelly

Many have also bought Komplete and then skipped multiple versions between paid updates.


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## greggybud

Mike Connelly said:


> Many have also bought Komplete and then skipped multiple versions between paid updates.


IMO this is a huge benefit with owning NI products. Correct me if I'm wrong, but could you not purchase Kontakt 2 and pay the same upgrade price as someone who owns Kontakt 4? Same goes with Komplete, except starting with Komplete 6?


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## Mike Connelly

$99 upgrade to Komplete 11 for users of 2-10. That's impressive, hopefully they keep that.


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## SomeGuy

greggybud said:


> Same goes with Komplete, except starting with Komplete 6?



What do you mean "except starting with Komplete 6?"


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## greggybud

SomeGuy said:


> What do you mean "except starting with Komplete 6?"


Kontakt, Reaktor, and several others NI products existed before there was any Komplete Ultimate. I think the Komplete concept started with Komplete 5 or 6 Then Ultimate with 7?. I'm not sure but hopefully someone will chime in.


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## EvilDragon

Komplete 1 and 2 did exist...


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## sinkd

EvilDragon said:


> Komplete 1 and 2 did exist...


I started with Komplete 3. Maybe $1300? Can't remember. I have been the guy who skips every other version. 3, 5, 7, 9, 11...


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