# Mix as you go?



## RyanMcQuinn (Sep 12, 2018)

Do you mix as you go when composing for a client? How often do you send updated versions to your clients? I'm finding that sending updates too frequently causes me to spend extra time mixing for ideas that might not even be used. On the other hand, I don't want to spend days on a track before learning the client disagrees with the direction. I feel like I'm not being efficient with this balance. I'd love to hear how others approach this


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## composerguy78 (Sep 16, 2018)

Hi Ryan,

Funnily enough I am actually in the same situation but for the opposite reason!

I find that mixing a cue and making it perfect or mix ready before submitting to a client is not efficient for reasons you mentioned - you do all that extra work for them to say they want something different.

So what I do is get it to a good state and then improve it later IF it is approved. Before starting the next cue, mix it, add instruments until you are happy with it, (unless you have a really fussy client who may notice) go ahead make stems and put it into your delivery session.

That is what I did on my last movie and it worked really well. On my current project however I was not given locked picture until after I had finished nearly all the cues (!). So now I have to go back adjust the project start and then mix and fix a load of things. It’s a nightmare and I wish i didn’t have to do it. 

I would really also appreciate any tips from other composers here. 

I am even considering putting something into my agreements about locked picture being a requirement. Or I may possibly charge for stems or something. Of course this is a low paying gig and the amount of work aside from just the composition is ridiculous.


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## jneebz (Sep 16, 2018)

composerguy78 said:


> I am even considering putting something into my agreements about locked picture being a requirement.


I don't know at what level of the industry you work at, but I've found at the Indie/small budget feature level, working with picture lock almost never happens, and conforms happen up until the very end. Making it a requirement may rub potential clients the wrong way...at least that's been my experience.


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## composerguy78 (Sep 16, 2018)

I think that is probably sound advice. It’s not as if everyone is going to suddenly get the picture locked for the “mighty” composer!


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## NoamL (Sep 16, 2018)

Picture lock simply isn't a thing anymore :(

Conforming cues is a task you could hand off to an assistant. If there's a music editor on the project, they typically handle some of that work as well (at least showing how it _should_ go, which then makes the actual conform just "grunt work.")

I enjoy conforming cues, it's a creative challenge.

What I don't like is when they take a scene and put it in an entirely different order in a different part of the movie. Then you really have to write a new cue. On the last major film I helped out on, we ended up with 165 minutes of music on a 90 minute picture.


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## MatFluor (Sep 16, 2018)

NoamL said:


> What I don't like is when they take a scene and put it in an entirely different order in a different part of the movie. Then you really have to write a new cue. On the last major film I helped out on, we ended up with 165 minutes of music on a 90 minute picture.



Damn. Happened similarly in a short I did - only that I saw the final cut after all was done. Cut scene in a different place, changed the pacing, reordered cues (which per se isn't that big of a deal), but the fade out in the middle because of a cut to a different scene hurt me in a way. What hurt me more is that I couldn't correct it since the project was done.


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## composerguy78 (Sep 16, 2018)

Even if locked picture isn’t a thing anymore I think we still need to establish some sort of standard of compensation. I could be wrong here but we are the only people who get totally shafted and never compensated for having to write a cue multiple times.


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## Scoremixer (Sep 16, 2018)

composerguy78 said:


> Even if locked picture isn’t a thing anymore I think we still need to establish some sort of standard of compensation. I could be wrong here but we are the only people who get totally shafted and never compensated for having to write a cue multiple times.


Oh boy... You should speak to the dialogue editors, or the sounds effects people, or the poor bastards doing vfx!


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## jneebz (Sep 16, 2018)

composerguy78 said:


> Even if locked picture isn’t a thing anymore I think we still need to establish some sort of standard of compensation. I could be wrong here but we are the only people who get totally shafted and never compensated for having to write a cue multiple times.


I'm afraid it will always be a challenge. Art is subjective, and therefore malleable.

FWIW, I've found the very best way to be efficient and successful is to really work hard at communication with the decision-maker. I spend a lot of time PRIOR to writing trying to understand the mind of the director. Learn the way they think. Be as specific as possible, listen well, and always work to serve the project. Nail this, and you'll do fewer re-writes.


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## charlieclouser (Sep 16, 2018)

I'm always mixing as I go. For me there's never a "mix" phase, but the music I do is pretty sound-design-y and so the effects are inseparable from the "music" part. So I'm never hearing dry tracks just chunking along with no special sauce applied because the sounds don't work without the sauce. I do have a bit of a "printing" phase - during any approval process I'm only printing stereo mixes for editors to insert and audition for the powers that be, and I don't bother printing all the surround stems until the musical content is approved, but by the time I get to that point the mix is almost entirely complete and all I'm really doing is double-checking the routing of elements to stems, making some last-minute changes as to what sounds go to which stems, maybe some final tweaks of stem limiters, and sitting through the real-time printing.

But during the composition process I'm definitely doing all of my eq and compression, automation, effects tweaking, etc. Having a pre-mixed template as a starting point makes this go a lot quicker - as I build each project-specific template I'm doing most of that stuff right from the start, so that all of the cues that are descendants of that template inherit those settings, meaning that all of the cues are 80% ready to go before I play a single note. Writing is so much easier and more fun when every sound is already drenched in special sauce.


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## NoamL (Sep 16, 2018)

MatFluor said:


> Damn. Happened similarly in a short I did - only that I saw the final cut after all was done. Cut scene in a different place, changed the pacing, reordered cues (which per se isn't that big of a deal), but the fade out in the middle because of a cut to a different scene hurt me in a way. What hurt me more is that I couldn't correct it since the project was done.



Yeah I worked on a short where the director cut my music like that. I hated it, at least have the professionalism to say "I don't like the cue / this part of the cue and we're not using it, that's final." The director is in charge... and if they're clear, then I can go ahead and cut or edit the music in a way that doesn't look like someone just fading out a track. People who don't work with audio... shouldn't work with audio.

But apparently directors don't grow out of this. There's one famous Hollywood director, I forget his name, but several top composers have worked with him only to find out that their scores aren't even in the movie or half has been replaced yet their name is still on the credits.


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## jfino (Sep 16, 2018)

Pre-mixed template really helps. You do minor tweaks and it sounds good enough for demos/drafts.
Once the track is approved you can mix again with detail.


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## dgburns (Sep 16, 2018)

I mix as I go. I always work to final as soon as possible. Too many writing decisions get made based on what’s right there in front of me.


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## AlexRuger (Sep 16, 2018)

I work exactly as Charlie describes. I don't think you can possibly do it any other way nowadays and still manage to find time to sleep at night.


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## FourFour (Sep 16, 2018)

jneebz said:


> I'm afraid it will always be a challenge. Art is subjective, and therefore malleable.
> 
> FWIW, I've found the very best way to be efficient and successful is to really work hard at communication with the decision-maker. I spend a lot of time PRIOR to writing trying to understand the mind of the director. Learn the way they think. Be as specific as possible, listen well, and always work to serve the project. Nail this, and you'll do fewer re-writes.


Agreed. Plenty of WIP for the client to review helps too.


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## Saxer (Sep 17, 2018)

jfino said:


> Once the track is approved you can mix again with detail.


Once the track is approved the most secure way is to never touch it again.


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## munician (Sep 17, 2018)

I always mix as I go.
When I have the whole score approved, I bring in my friend who is a "real" engineer. I'm at the computer, he sits behind me like a buddha with eyes closed and fom time to time says things like "on that strange sound raise 12k about 2dB", then goes back into that other state.
Very reassuring to have the score checked by heavenly ears!


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## composerguy78 (Sep 17, 2018)

Saxer said:


> Once the track is approved the most secure way is to never touch it again.


True in theory but this goes back to what jneebz was saying about knowing your client. In my case, I know they like when I improve a track and add more instruments. Plus, I deliver stems so they can always take it out at the mix if it's a problem.


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## reddognoyz (Sep 17, 2018)

I mix as I go, often to also check back on the flow of the score. two birds one stone. I will do a review pass and punch in any edits I need to do.


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## Henu (Sep 17, 2018)

I never mix as I go, unless I'm in an extreme hurry or the project has only a couple of instrument tracks.

That being said, I almost never provide unmixed tracks to anyone- it's usually either a rough demo or a final product when I deliver anything.


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## colony nofi (Jan 3, 2019)

Resurrecting an old thread... but would like to hear different approaches to adding live orchestra / ensembles / instruments into the puzzle.
My own personal workflow is to have sign off on the cues pre record to a premix that is pretty damn close.
Then I stem as if sending to a mix stage (record my busses all at once using nuendo's export features), but any stems that are to be replaced by live instruments I label in a different way. I also separate out some reverbs (depending on what function they have) to separate stems.
I also print click, and two "group" stems...one of all the stems not to be replaced, and the other of stems to be replaced, and a WIP mix.
Then create record sessions complete with tempo map, click, the two large stems above, and all the individual stems (just turned off).
Record into this session. The individual stems are really just there in case I need to listen to parts individually quickly, or if something doesn't work in the record, check to see if I can actually just get away with the mockup etc. 

If I'm recording into my system, I'll mix from the record session. Mixing with live instruments often changes things more than I expect - so having the individual stems ready is a huge help. However, more recently I've been lucky enough to have other engineers do the recording for me. I just get the final select takes, and bring them into a long mix session.
That session is normally one reel per mix session. Or even the full film. Only issue with this is if I want to add any extra tempo based effects - as I have not figured out a way to make a tempo map for a full feature from 40 or more individual cues yet. I haven't tried too hard.

Why have I chosen this way? I guess its to allow me to use a sound for the whole film for the orchestral / live instruments - or at least start in the same place (there's inevitable changes in sound for different cues... or sometimes different orchestral mic setups used for different types of cues.)

I haven't done as much TV, but I'd imagine being able to do the final mix with instruments in one session makes life much easier?

Would love to hear others ideas on this. 

Cheers!


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