# Orchestral Tools Ark 1, 2 & 3 free upgrade



## Jerry Growl (Jan 10, 2019)

Hey everyone,

Like many of you I just received this e-mail from Orchestral Tools:


...we are happy to give you a new update for Metropolis Ark 1!

This is a feature update coupled with a small maintenance update, introducing the following changes:
- the Capsule script was updated to 2.7.0
- support for the Native Instruments NKS standard (if you have compatible NI hardware)
- miscellaneous small fixes

______! ! ! ! ! ! !_______ 
Important:
This update requires Kontakt Player 5.8.1 or higher. After installation the collection will NOT work with any earlier version of Kontakt!​Now that's what I call service! 

I wish other libraries did the same instead of sending promises on this very forum that they ever will... 

Let this be a lesson for those devs with sloppy customers care ! Yes it's important, and yes we care!

Best,

Jerry


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## KallumS (Jan 10, 2019)

This is great news, props to Orchestral Tools for looking after their customers.

One question though, does this mean we have to download the whole 75gb again or can it be patched over?


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Jan 10, 2019)

It can be patched over


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## MartinH. (Jan 10, 2019)

Is this the Ark 1 version that all the people who bought it in the NI sale already have? If so then it still contains a couple of bugs (I'm not listing them again, I've reported all I've found in the sale threads in December, most were related to the "niente" option in Ark 1).


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jan 10, 2019)

KallumS said:


> This is great news, props to Orchestral Tools for looking after their customers.
> 
> One question though, does this mean we have to download the whole 75gb again or can it be patched over?


no, man!


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Jan 10, 2019)

@OT_Tobias : Would it be possible to have a list of the fixes ? Seems you did a LOT of improvements here !


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jan 10, 2019)

EDIT: It's confirmed--folks who bought Arks 1&2 during the recent NI sale should already have these updates. (Ark 3 buyers may not, however.)

I tested a couple reported bugs in Ark 2 and it seems that they were addressed.

Kudos to OT for doing the update. I've recently been critical of the way they handle sales, particularly with BWW Revive's limited upgrade period and the way they keep people in the dark during pre-release ordering periods for new products.
That said, I want to give them credit where credit's due, so cheers to OT for this update.


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## jbuhler (Jan 10, 2019)

As stated in the email, these updates mostly just bring NKS support and a more recent version of Capsule, and I'm pretty certain those who bought during the December sale already have this update.


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## Jerry Growl (Jan 10, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> As stated in the email, these updates mostly just bring NKS support and a more recent version of Capsule, and I'm pretty certain those who bought during the December sale already have this update.


Yes, recent buyers should have the updated version already. But many of us have been using the libraries a bit longer... and there were some minor issues (as in all libraries out there) throughout the Ark libraries that are hopefully solved now. As Mr. Whitewasteland prompted, a list of fixes would be nice.


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## dzilizzi (Jan 10, 2019)

I didn't get an update email yet and I bought during the recent NKS sale. So I'm guessing we got the current version they are offering?


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## jbuhler (Jan 10, 2019)

Jerry Growl said:


> Yes, recent buyers should have the updated version already. But many of us have been using the libraries a bit longer... and there were some minor issues (as in all libraries out there) throughout the Ark libraries that are hopefully solved now. As Mr. Whitewasteland prompted, a list of fixes would be nice.


Given what some of the new buyers were reporting, a number of issues long identified and reported remain unfixed in this latest update.


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## jbuhler (Jan 10, 2019)

dzilizzi said:


> I didn't get an update email yet and I bought during the recent NKS sale. So I'm guessing we got the current version they are offering?


The versions released today in the emails are 1.2 for Ark 1, 1.1 for Arks 2 and 3. So if you have those, then you have the latest update.


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## dzilizzi (Jan 10, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> The versions released today in the emails are 1.2 for Ark 1, 1.1 for Arks 2 and 3. So if you have those, then you have the latest update.


Hmm. I only have 1.0 for Ark 3. Maybe they will send it later. Or maybe I should just try re-downloading it. Thanks for the versions.


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## Brian Nowak (Jan 10, 2019)

The updates also address "miscellaneous small fixes" but they are, in my opinion, sometimes not so small. 

The mid string tails in Ark 2 are a bit improved. They're not 100% smooth like the other sections, but they're better. The room noise buildup issue in the Ark 2 piano has also been improved. There are other things that just kind of feel a bit tighter - certain brass transitions, etc. The mid string fast tremolo does still have some clicking/popping noise but maybe it's not quite so intrusive as before.

They have fixed the issue in Ark 2/3 where editing anything in the multi articulations menus would drop samples out of capsule - something I assumed was an issue with Capsule itself.

I may be crazy but some of the percussion in Ark 3 sounds clearer to me - like a little less woofy. Especially the taikos? I don't know maybe I'm just nuts. 

Also, I am pretty positive (or totally insane) that various round robin issues in the percussion of Ark 3 were fixed. There were several ensembles that had bad round robins (weird phasing issues, odd stereo field glitches, odd attacks on the sample, etc) and I'm not hearing them now as I play through. One of the issues that I think was addressed was how releases are handled on articulations such as crescendos and decrescendos if you release the key early. Before, they would kind of drop out and the release sounded really stark. It's a lot smoother now.

Unfortunately there are still noise issues on many of the repetition patches in Ark 3. I don't use them really, but if you hold the notes long enough you reach loop points and they're just not edited very well. Maybe in a really busy mix you wouldn't notice them but they stand out otherwise. And the faster the repetition, the more noise there seems to be. The release timing does seem to be a little bit tighter but due to noise issues I likely won't use them. 

Ark 1 high string unison spiccatos are still really rough on repeated notes - I daresay they actually don't function well at all. The 4th round robin is atrocious as the slight attack on the sample causes a hiccup, and getting rid of it starts to engage machine gunning. So I just won't use them in that way - trailer-esque repeated stuff just doesn't work. It's a shame this wasn't fixed.

Overall, there are some fixes that I think went over really well. And then there's stuff where OT could have probably done a better job at addressing. So we'll see when the next one comes around.


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## djrustycans (Jan 10, 2019)

Thanks OT! I can’t seem to get MA 1,2 & 3 to show up in Komplete Kontrol. I’ve restarted KK after the installation (several times) and it showed that it was scanning MA1 but nothing is in the library. MA 2 & 3 didn’t even seem to scan. Have reinstalled twice but no joy....


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## Dimension (Jan 10, 2019)

Hi
Can someone confirm the total size and files for MA1?I got 2 files total 308mb.Capsule container and metropolis ark 1 instruments 1_2.Thanks and very happy about this forum one of the best!!


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## JonSolo (Jan 10, 2019)

That seems about right on the size.


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## Dimension (Jan 10, 2019)

JonSolo said:


> That seems about right on the size.


Thank you.


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## bfreepro (Jan 11, 2019)

Brian Nowak said:


> Ark 1 high string unison spiccatos are still really rough on repeated notes - I daresay they actually don't function well at all. The 4th round robin is atrocious as the slight attack on the sample causes a hiccup, and getting rid of it starts to engage machine gunning. So I just won't use them in that way - trailer-esque repeated stuff just doesn't work. It's a shame this wasn't fixed.



I’ve noticed this with almost every MA1 short patch I have tried, not just the hi string unis. Honestly makes me feel a bit insane, because people very rarely mention this, or they are aware of it but still vigorously defend the library because “nothing is perfect”. I am not saying it’s a bad library, but I find I can’t use quite a few of the short patches at all, because of varying attack on different RRs. It’s honestly pretty disappointing for such a highly praised library, as it just feels a bit sloppy and overlooked. I would love to have the extra oomph for my fast short phrases but find I often simply can’t do it with MA1. (I have the NKS ready version purchased thru NI sale)


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## djrustycans (Jan 11, 2019)

bfreepro said:


> (I have the NKS ready version purchased thru NI sale)



Does it show up with the other NI libraries with a thumbnail in Komplete Kontrol?

Thanks


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## bfreepro (Jan 11, 2019)

djrustycans said:


> Does it show up with the other NI libraries with a thumbnail in Komplete Kontrol?
> 
> Thanks


I have not yet opened it up thru KK, just kontakt. I will check when I get to the studio and get back to you!


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## djrustycans (Jan 11, 2019)

Thanks man!


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## Daniel F. (Jan 11, 2019)

bfreepro said:


> I’ve noticed this with almost every MA1 short patch I have tried, not just the hi string unis. Honestly makes me feel a bit insane, because people very rarely mention this, or they are aware of it but still vigorously defend the library because “nothing is perfect”. I am not saying it’s a bad library, but I find I can’t use quite a few of the short patches at all, because of varying attack on different RRs. It’s honestly pretty disappointing for such a highly praised library, as it just feels a bit sloppy and overlooked. I would love to have the extra oomph for my fast short phrases but find I often simply can’t do it with MA1. (I have the NKS ready version purchased thru NI sale)





Brian Nowak said:


> Ark 1 high string unison spiccatos are still really rough on repeated notes - I daresay they actually don't function well at all. The 4th round robin is atrocious as the slight attack on the sample causes a hiccup, and getting rid of it starts to engage machine gunning. So I just won't use them in that way - trailer-esque repeated stuff just doesn't work. It's a shame this wasn't fixed.
> 
> Overall, there are some fixes that I think went over really well. And then there's stuff where OT could have probably done a better job at addressing. So we'll see when the next one comes around.



Have you reported this? This is the same I found when using ma1. The short notes are almost useless for fast passages. I've posted a sound cloud clip a few times on this forum. I post it again. I hoped this would be fixed in a future update. Its very bad. If everyone report it maybe they will fix it. I got happy when I saw this post hoping they have fix it.


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## bfreepro (Jan 11, 2019)

Daniel F. said:


> Have you reported this? This is the same I found when using ma1. The short notes are almost useless for fast passages. I've posted a sound cloud clip a few times on this forum. I post it again. I hoped this would be fixed in a future update. Its very bad. If everyone report it maybe they will fix it. I got happy when I saw this post hoping they have fix it.



Yes I have, in fact I just got a reply from OT support saying they hear nothing wrong and users prefer imperfections. To me there just seems to be various inconsistencies and it renders my short phrases out of sync and unusable. I’ve seen libraries and companies get torn to pieces in forums for similar issues/inconsistencies in the past, and this truly makes me confused about the amount of unanimous praise and hype with rarely a mention of the (to me) glaring shortcomings. I’m left wondering why this library/company seems to always gets a pass from others. Definitely a good library, but not great or a must have.


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## Daniel F. (Jan 11, 2019)

bfreepro said:


> Yes I have, in fact I just got a reply from OT support saying they hear nothing wrong and users prefer imperfections. To me there just seems to be various inconsistencies and it renders my short phrases out of sync and unusable. I’ve seen libraries and companies get torn to pieces in forums for similar issues/inconsistencies in the past, and this truly makes me confused about the amount of unanimous praise and hype with rarely a mention of the (to me) glaring shortcomings. I’m left wondering why this library/company seems to always gets a pass from others. Definitely a good library, but not great or a must have.


They don't care? If they don't hear anything wrong maybe they shouldnt be working in the music biz. Its very easy to hear the problems. Imperfections are ok but not this.

Yes if they fixed the problems it would be a very good library. What you say it still a good library but could be better. Now its not full usable.


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## Brian Nowak (Jan 11, 2019)

bfreepro said:


> I’ve noticed this with almost every MA1 short patch I have tried, not just the hi string unis. Honestly makes me feel a bit insane, because people very rarely mention this, or they are aware of it but still vigorously defend the library because “nothing is perfect”. I am not saying it’s a bad library, but I find I can’t use quite a few of the short patches at all, because of varying attack on different RRs. It’s honestly pretty disappointing for such a highly praised library, as it just feels a bit sloppy and overlooked. I would love to have the extra oomph for my fast short phrases but find I often simply can’t do it with MA1. (I have the NKS ready version purchased thru NI sale)





Daniel F. said:


> Have you reported this? This is the same I found when using ma1. The short notes are almost useless for fast passages. I've posted a sound cloud clip a few times on this forum. I post it again. I hoped this would be fixed in a future update. Its very bad. If everyone report it maybe they will fix it. I got happy when I saw this post hoping they have fix it.




Oh yeah I've reported it. And they claimed nobody had ever reported such a problem with Ark 1. Which is weird because a handful of people have come forward and said they contacted OT about it a while back.

And we're not alone. A VERY active trailer forum I'm part of ripped Ark 1 a new asshole about it because the problems render the strings completely unusable (and I hate saying that phrase) for most trailer string work. I know the first time I wrote a track with them my mentor's first remarks were "your strings sound like they're making errors - did you do something funny to the rhythms? It sounds like they're tripping up". They are pretty universally considered terrible among most serious composers in the field. It's actually pretty sad how bad they are. I mean the examples you posted, @Daniel F.? That's what I'd expect to hear from drunk high schoolers.

I don't even think it CAN be fixed. And I think that the claims that little imperfections are desirable is just a defense mechanism to cover up for bad sampling practices. When you start to look at how inconsistent the string shorts are it is pretty obvious it was just amateur hour sampling. It was also poorly thought out. I mean - the unison spiccato in the high strings have 5 round robins and each one sounds different, and as an invariable result, a pattern begins to emerge that creates a hemiola on passages of repeated notes. The alternative is to engage random RRs, which basically means randomly weird notes showing up and completely throwing any chance of getting consistent accents right out the window.

The strings work in other scenarios. Stabs, passages that aren't motor rhythms, etc. But they still sound sloppy in a lot of cases and tightening up the samples would be an incredible boon to the library.

So I don't know what the deal is. @OT_Tobias you guys are missing a real opportunity to take a product and make it truly stunning. There are several examples of people pointing out that this is a tremendous deficiency in the library. Why not work to make it better?


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## Daniel F. (Jan 11, 2019)

Brian Nowak said:


> Oh yeah I've reported it. And they claimed nobody had ever reported such a problem with Ark 1. Which is weird because a handful of people have come forward and said they contacted OT about it a while back.
> 
> And we're not alone. A VERY active trailer forum I'm part of ripped Ark 1 a new asshole about it because the problems render the strings completely unusable (and I hate saying that phrase) for most trailer string work. I know the first time I wrote a track with them my mentor's first remarks were "your strings sound like they're making errors - did you do something funny to the rhythms? It sounds like they're tripping up". They are pretty universally considered terrible among most serious composers in the field. It's actually pretty sad how bad they are. I mean the examples you posted, @Daniel F.? That's what I'd expect to hear from drunk high schoolers.
> 
> ...


I hope if enough people report the problems they will fix them. I've never been very amazed by any of OTs products. I think the MA series is their best but it still has some bugs and problems that could be fixed to make it much better. I dont understand why they would not want to make the products the best.

Still its good they released new updates but there's still more things to fix and saying that theres no thing to fix is dumb when we all can hear it.


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## Daniel F. (Jan 11, 2019)

Brian Nowak said:


> Oh yeah I've reported it. And they claimed nobody had ever reported such a problem with Ark 1. Which is weird because a handful of people have come forward and said they contacted OT about it a while back.
> 
> And we're not alone. A VERY active trailer forum I'm part of ripped Ark 1 a new asshole about it because the problems render the strings completely unusable (and I hate saying that phrase) for most trailer string work. I know the first time I wrote a track with them my mentor's first remarks were "your strings sound like they're making errors - did you do something funny to the rhythms? It sounds like they're tripping up". They are pretty universally considered terrible among most serious composers in the field. It's actually pretty sad how bad they are. I mean the examples you posted, @Daniel F.? That's what I'd expect to hear from drunk high schoolers.
> 
> ...



Easy fix for round robin problem would be a way to choose round robin like spitfire does. That works with random rr. Also do so that the same round robin can play after each other in random. If i remember the same rr can play multiple times in a row.


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## djrustycans (Jan 11, 2019)

Just had a rapid response from Tobias for anyone else who is struggling to get the Ark series to show in Komplete Kontrol:

“Hi David,

There seems to be a bug in Komplete Kontrol where newly updated libraries are not recognized.
Unfortunately NKS is fully on NI's side and we have no way of troubleshooting this, especially we do not even have a NKS-capable device like one of their keyboards.

One user reoported that letting Native Access rescan the collection does help:
"The "trick" I use is to temporarily move the updated product to another drive, and then let Native Access scan and produce a "repair" listing for that product.

Then, I move the product back to the desired drive, and after relaunching Native Access, choose the option of a "relocate" which then makes the latest version of the product show up correctly.

That, in turn, produces a successful data base update in Komplete Kontrol."

Please try that. If it does not help, I'm afraid you'll need to contact NI, as I have no way of looking into the matter.

best

Tobias
OT Support”

To be fair to OT, I’ve found the Ark series (particularly 1) to be nothing short of top drawer. Their products tend to be top of the tree for me - certainly haven’t had more issues than with other developers products. In fact , significantly less. Just shows how we all differ in our perspective.


_______________________________________________

Visit our Helpdesk at http://helpdesk


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## will_m (Jan 11, 2019)

bfreepro said:


> I’ve noticed this with almost every MA1 short patch I have tried, not just the hi string unis. Honestly makes me feel a bit insane, because people very rarely mention this, or they are aware of it but still vigorously defend the library because “nothing is perfect”. I am not saying it’s a bad library, but I find I can’t use quite a few of the short patches at all, because of varying attack on different RRs. It’s honestly pretty disappointing for such a highly praised library, as it just feels a bit sloppy and overlooked. I would love to have the extra oomph for my fast short phrases but find I often simply can’t do it with MA1. (I have the NKS ready version purchased thru NI sale)



I've noticed the same thing and I know others who have too. I write a lot of trailer stuff and love Ark for this purpose but the shorts (especially the Highs) have very inconsistent timing which makes fast or repetitive passages sound pretty sloppy.

I'd consider OT libraries in the premium bracket and its a bit of a shame to see issues like that at the price point, especially given how good the sound is.


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## Brian Nowak (Jan 11, 2019)

Daniel F. said:


> I hope if enough people report the problems they will fix them. I've never been very amazed by any of OTs products. I think the MA series is their best but it still has some bugs and problems that could be fixed to make it much better. I dont understand why they would not want to make the products the best.
> 
> Still its good they released new updates but there's still more things to fix and saying that theres no thing to fix is dumb when we all can hear it.



I don't think they'll fix it because I don't think it can be fixed. If they can fix it, they definitely should. But I think it's inherent in the samples and all the talk of it sounding "human" is basically an excuse for that fact. I had reported the exact issue with an EXACT description as to what the problems are and was told it would be sent to the work crew as a fix. So I figured if they could fix it they would.

I moved on and just use CSS for my strings because I can make them do what I want all the time. But yeah it would be a huge deal if they could tighten them up, because I really like the powerful sound of the Ark strings but just can't actually use them in a lot of areas as a result of how weak they are when they falter. It's a real bummer.

And yes, @djrustycans, where the Arks work well, they work really well. I currently use a huge amount of Ark 1 and 3 in the action cues I am writing for a publisher. But there's no way I could use the strings with as much shorts as I'm writing. The publisher would never accept the quality of those samples. Wouldn't happen. And that's a shame.

The sound is often very good. They can just be a real pain to work with in some areas. If they were to tighten them up they would literally be as damn close to perfect as I could expect and they'd see a TON more use from myself and many other people. I don't think people should shy away from criticizing them when it is totally due.


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## jbuhler (Jan 11, 2019)

bfreepro said:


> I’ve noticed this with almost every MA1 short patch I have tried, not just the hi string unis. Honestly makes me feel a bit insane, because people very rarely mention this, or they are aware of it but still vigorously defend the library because “nothing is perfect”. I am not saying it’s a bad library, but I find I can’t use quite a few of the short patches at all, because of varying attack on different RRs. It’s honestly pretty disappointing for such a highly praised library, as it just feels a bit sloppy and overlooked. I would love to have the extra oomph for my fast short phrases but find I often simply can’t do it with MA1. (I have the NKS ready version purchased thru NI sale)


I agree that it would be nice if these problems were fixed but I don’t think Ark 1 has ever received much praise for its strings. For the brass and the choir, yes, but not for the strings. (The strings of Ark 2 have received more praise, though I continue to have problems with the legato in the low and mid strings.)


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## Brian Nowak (Jan 11, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> I agree that it would be nice if these problems were fixed but I don’t think Ark 1 has ever received much praise for its strings. For the brass and the choir, yes, but not for the strings. (The strings of Ark 2 have received more praise, though I continue to have problems with the legato in the low and mid strings.)



Yeah - but primarily the reason they don't receive as much praise is BECAUSE of the inconsistencies we're talking about here. They're certainly not the end-all-be-all of strings. But if the RRs were better on the shorts they'd be a lot more of a powerhouse.


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## jbuhler (Jan 11, 2019)

Brian Nowak said:


> Yeah - but primarily the reason they don't receive as much praise is BECAUSE of the inconsistencies we're talking about here. They're certainly not the end-all-be-all of strings. But if the RRs were better on the shorts they'd be a lot more of a powerhouse.


Agreed. But even if they were perfect for what they are I don’t know how much use I’d make of them.


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## Brian Nowak (Jan 11, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> Agreed. But even if they were perfect for what they are I don’t know how much use I’d make of them.



I would definitely use them more, myself. There's times where that level of power just can't be matched by other stuff. They're just too inflexible in most situations to work, so I don't.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jan 11, 2019)

For future libraries--which many of us will buy blind during the pre-release period--it'd be nice to have confidence that Orchestral Tools doesn't let sloppiness like this go unaddressed.

I don't want to come across like a total hater of Orchestral Tools, by the way. I really like most of what they do, and really like Ark 1. It's just that I don't entirely trust them--but the good news is that they can fix all of this stuff, and then I'd be happy to say how much they've turned it around.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Jan 11, 2019)

Update, not upgrade. :(

Upgrade sounds much bigger like, a crazy offer for another MA library for free, or a new highly revised version, maybe even with new samples.


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## String-for-sale (Jan 11, 2019)

djrustycans said:


> Just had a rapid response from Tobias for anyone else who is struggling to get the Ark series to show in Komplete Kontrol:
> 
> “Hi David,
> 
> ...


I had problem after the NKS update to get it showing in Maschine. 

Here's what is working for me:

- Use NI unregister tool to remove the Ark product you just updated from your NI database.
- Open Native Access. The Ark product will show as uninstalled. You only have to specify where your library is on your computer and it will show as installed again.
- Restart Maschine or Komplete Kontrol and it should scan your Ark product and list it as available after the scan.


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## Brian Nowak (Jan 11, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> For future libraries--which many of us will buy blind during the pre-release period--it'd be nice to have confidence that Orchestral Tools doesn't let sloppiness like this go unaddressed.
> 
> I don't want to come across like a total hater of Orchestral Tools, by the way. I really like most of what they do, and really like Ark 1. It's just that I don't entirely trust them--but the good news is that they can fix all of this stuff, and then I'd be happy to say how much they've turned it around.



I don't think expecting a product to function mostly normal is worthy of being called a hater.

I mean these are paid-for products after all. And not exactly dirt cheap, either. The fact that the string shorts are loosey goosey to the point that it inhibits writing with them is totally grounds for complaint.


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## djrustycans (Jan 11, 2019)

String-for-sale said:


> I had problem after the NKS update to get it showing in Maschine.
> 
> Here's what is working for me:
> 
> ...



Cheers, managed to do it a different way but your way sounds easier!


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## MartinH. (Jan 11, 2019)

bfreepro said:


> Yes I have, in fact I just got a reply from OT support saying they hear nothing wrong and users prefer imperfections. To me there just seems to be various inconsistencies and it renders my short phrases out of sync and unusable. I’ve seen libraries and companies get torn to pieces in forums for similar issues/inconsistencies in the past, and this truly makes me confused about the amount of unanimous praise and hype with rarely a mention of the (to me) glaring shortcomings. I’m left wondering why this library/company seems to always gets a pass from others. Definitely a good library, but not great or a must have.



Maybe they only tested on notes that don't have the issue? Even just briefly trying Ark 1 I got a strong feeling that no one ever intensely tested every sample and feature, including QA and all reviewers (which to be fair is a feeling I have with pretty much every sample library I have). So lets start with concrete examples of demonstrable and fixable issues. Let's make Metropolis Ark 1 great again! 

@OT_Tobias

This:






Sounds like this:

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/low-strings-spiccato-timing-issue-mp3.17764/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## djrustycans (Jan 11, 2019)

Brian Nowak said:


> Yeah - but primarily the reason they don't receive as much praise is BECAUSE of the inconsistencies we're talking about here. They're certainly not the end-all-be-all of strings. But if the RRs were better on the shorts they'd be a lot more of a powerhouse.



The strings are one of the best bits for me - can get great results (convincing). Admittedly, I sometimes use other libraries with it but love the portato samples for melodies. Never once had an issue with the shorts on the music I’ve written but not saying there aren’t any issues!


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jan 11, 2019)

Brian Nowak said:


> I don't think expecting a product to function mostly normal is worthy of being called a hater.


Agreed, they should address string issues you mentioned.

I was just trying not to be too negative, since this is a thread about how they've released some fixes.


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## Brian Nowak (Jan 11, 2019)

djrustycans said:


> The strings are one of the best bits for me - can get great results (convincing). Admittedly, I sometimes use other libraries with it but love the portato samples for melodies. Never once had an issue with the shorts on the music I’ve written but not saying there aren’t any issues!



Oh I'm not saying you can't write good sounding material with the strings. Not at all. But some things that should be easy peasy lemon squeezy - things that are ubiquitous modern string writing - come off jarring and messy as all get out. 

I mean the examples people have posted are pretty clear. If this issue could be fixed it would, as I said before, turn them from very good to legendary.


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## ggard17680 (Jan 11, 2019)

I am not sure if this was mentioned but I just got Ark 2 and the violas releases make them pretty much not playable. They cut off very abruptly. The noise after the string samples is incredible to me that it was released like that. I am extremely disappointed.


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## MartinH. (Jan 11, 2019)

ggard17680 said:


> I am not sure if this was mentioned but I just got Ark 2 and the violas releases make them pretty much not playable. They cut off very abruptly. The noise after the string samples is incredible to me that it was released like that. I am extremely disappointed.



Can you post an audio example like I did for the low string spiccatos?


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## ReversedLogic (Jan 11, 2019)

String-for-sale said:


> I had problem after the NKS update to get it showing in Maschine.
> 
> Here's what is working for me:
> 
> ...



I've been trying to get this working but I don't see anything on my system about an unregister tool (or on the NI site) Any help on where I can find it?


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## MartinH. (Jan 11, 2019)

ReversedLogic said:


> I've been trying to get this working but I don't see anything on my system about an unregister tool (or on the NI site) Any help on where I can find it?



maybe this helps: 
https://support.native-instruments....-Software-Update-Installation-Issues-Windows-


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## zimm83 (Jan 11, 2019)

djrustycans said:


> The strings are one of the best bits for me - can get great results (convincing). Admittedly, I sometimes use other libraries with it but love the portato samples for melodies. Never once had an issue with the shorts on the music I’ve written but not saying there aren’t any issues!


+1
This thread becomes really boring.......hummmmmm


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## SirKen (Jan 11, 2019)

zimm83 said:


> +1
> This thread becomes really boring.......hummmmmm



This is not your blog and we are not interested in knowing of your mood changes based on the reports of issues within libraries. 

If you have nothing meaningful to contribute, I think you should spare us and go use your time for something more productive.


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## ReversedLogic (Jan 11, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> maybe this helps:
> https://support.native-instruments....-Software-Update-Installation-Issues-Windows-


That was the one thanks! All fixed up now


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## zimm83 (Jan 11, 2019)

SirKen said:


> This is not your blog and we are not interested in knowing of your mood changes based on the reports of issues within libraries.
> 
> If you have nothing meaningful to contribute, I think you should spare us and go use your time for something more productive.


Complaining....complaining....boring...


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## ggard17680 (Jan 11, 2019)

If you own Ark 2 just go to a viola legato or sustain patch and play a note you will hear it just cuts off completely. Also listen to all the rustling around noise after the sample releases. Surely some of you have noticed this.


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## zimm83 (Jan 11, 2019)

djrustycans said:


> Just had a rapid response from Tobias for anyone else who is struggling to get the Ark series to show in Komplete Kontrol:
> 
> “Hi David,
> 
> ...


+1 for K Kontrol bug...


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jan 11, 2019)

ggard17680 said:


> If you own Ark 2 just go to a viola legato or sustain patch and play a note you will hear it just cuts off completely.







Tested this with Ark 2 string sustains, default settings. Yes, the mid strings sound like they're missing release tails compared to highs and lows. Dang.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ark-2-mid-strings-test-mp3.17766/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## gpax (Jan 11, 2019)

djrustycans said:


> Cheers, managed to do it a different way but your way sounds easier!


It seems there are a couple of ways to get Komplete Kontrol to properly scan, then. What is being re-quoted from Tobias above, is actually me, from an email I sent him late last night. I had a similar problem with two recent Spitfire updates that were specific to addressing NKS issues.

Looks like a couple of methods above are perhaps a bit more simple than mine!


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## Brian Nowak (Jan 11, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Tested this with Ark 2 string sustains, default settings. Yes, the mid strings sound like they're missing release tails compared to highs and lows. Dang.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ark-2-mid-strings-test-mp3.17766/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Yo man - are you updated and opening 1.1? After updating the tails on the mid strings in Ark 2 are MUCH better. Not perfect, and some of the legato transitions are a bit bumpy. But it's still way better than that on my end. Wheras before, I absolutely had to use a very wet reverb just to cover them up. I just tested this now against yours and it sounds totally different, so I'm curious what you have going on there. IMO this is one of the things the update DEFINITELY improved. Here's my audio from just now. Dry, out of Ark 2.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ark-2-ver-1-1-mp3.17768/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jan 11, 2019)

Brian Nowak said:


> Yo man - are you updated and opening 1.1? After updating the tails on the mid strings in Ark 2 are MUCH better.


I bought Ark 2 during the recent NI sale, and it says 1.1.





I never received an update email, but the assumption on this forum (not yet confirmed by OT) is that those who bought Arks 1 and 2 during the recent NI sale already have the update, which would see to be confirmed by fact that it says I'm running version 1.1.

So I'm not actually sure what's going on here. I'll double check on my end.

EDIT: I might have figured it out. I was using the mid strings sus single patch. When I switch to the mid strings sus multi patch and select "susrv", it sounds like there's a tail on this one.

So it seems that OT fixed the multi patch and forgot to fix the single patch. Sloppy, but not hard to work around.

@Brian Nowak -- Were you using the mid strings multi in your test?


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## Brian Nowak (Jan 11, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I bought Ark 2 during the recent NI sale, and it says 1.1.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hmmm.... very curious. I wonder if maybe it was a bad download. If you can't get better results I'd reach out to OT help and see what they think.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jan 11, 2019)

Brian Nowak said:


> Hmmm.... very curious. I wonder if maybe it was a bad download. If you can't get better results I'd reach out to OT help and see what they think.


Okay, here's Mid Strings Sustains Single Articulation versus Mid Strings Sustains Multi Articulation.






[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ark-2-mid-strings-test-02-mp3.17772/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## bfreepro (Jan 11, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> I agree that it would be nice if these problems were fixed but I don’t think Ark 1 has ever received much praise for its strings. For the brass and the choir, yes, but not for the strings. (The strings of Ark 2 have received more praise, though I continue to have problems with the legato in the low and mid strings.)


Unfortunately this problem isn’t isolated with just the strings, I have the same issue with some of the brass, especially the 9 horns. I have so many libraries that outperform MA1 by a landslide when it comes to actually having consistently crisp and tight short notes, it’s hard not to be at least a little frustrated. I doubt I’ll be buying any more from OT, as even Inspire has similar problems in with some patches. They have just never lived up to the massive hype I’m afraid. I bought MA1 mostly for the choirs and brass(really needed a large horn ensemble with good marcatos) as it had such a good sale and it was a choice between that or Talos Horns (already own Jaeger and Talos Lo Brass). I picked MA1 simply because of how many users rave about it and I thought it would offer more useable content. I wish I would have picked Talos Horns.


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## Brian Nowak (Jan 11, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Okay, here's Mid Strings Sustains Single Articulation versus Mid Strings Sustains Multi Articulation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah you are onto something here. The single articulation tail is entirely different than the multi. I only use the multis in the Ark libraries because it suits my workflow better. I looked around for differences in the settings and did not see anything engaged that would have caused this to happen.

However, if you look at the microphone page you can see clearly in the single articulation menu that the volume cuts off quicker upon releasing the key than with the multi articulation (in the mics themselves - like the volume meters in the microphones just fall off).

My best guess is that when they "fixed" the release they were only working in the multi and didn't check the single articulation files. And I would then venture to guess that the single articulation preset points to the old files.

Another oddity is that the single articulation goes two notes higher than the multi. Very weird!

EDIT: I actually opened the wave editor and confirmed it. The single articulation points to a different set of samples altogether than the multi. Looks like somebody didn't do a thorough job. Whooooops!


----------



## will_m (Jan 11, 2019)

I would have though the strings shorts in MA1 could be fixed quite easily, it just sounds like the sample editing is off, so some of the RR samples have too much dead space at the start of the sample.

To me the timing isn't just humanised its plain sloppy sounding, on faster phrases its even worse.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts (Jan 11, 2019)

Brian Nowak said:


> EDIT: I actually opened the wave editor and confirmed it. The single articulation points to a different set of samples altogether than the multi. Looks like somebody didn't do a thorough job. Whooooops!


Next time they roll out a product with pre-release pricing, no advanced copies sent for review, I'll keep in mind this little bit of shoddy quality control.


----------



## MartinH. (Jan 11, 2019)

Can someone who already has a support ticket open with OT please point them to this thread so that they have all the info available to them that they need to fix these things?


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## Brian Nowak (Jan 11, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Next time they roll out a product with pre-release pricing, no advanced copies sent for review, I'll keep in mind this little bit of shoddy quality control.



LOL at this point I feel like somebody should warn poor Tom Holkenborg before he announces his plan to team up with them for his brass library. 

Who knows though? Maybe he'll insist on better sample editors.


----------



## jbuhler (Jan 11, 2019)

bfreepro said:


> Unfortunately this problem isn’t isolated with just the strings, I have the same issue with some of the brass, especially the 9 horns. I have so many libraries that outperform MA1 by a landslide when it comes to actually having consistently crisp and tight short notes, it’s hard not to be at least a little frustrated. I doubt I’ll be buying any more from OT, as even Inspire has similar problems in with some patches. They have just never lived up to the massive hype I’m afraid. I bought MA1 mostly for the choirs and brass(really needed a large horn ensemble with good marcatos) as it had such a good sale and it was a choice between that or Talos Horns (already own Jaeger and Talos Lo Brass). I picked MA1 simply because of how many users rave about it and I thought it would offer more useable content. I wish I would have picked Talos Horns.



I've not had any issues with the a9 horn and I use it a lot. On the other hand I don't really expect a crisp, tight short from 9 horns, because that's just not what 9 horns are designed to do. At least I don't think so.


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## Brian Nowak (Jan 11, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> I've not had any issues with the a9 horn and I use it a lot. On the other hand I don't really expect a crisp, tight short from 9 horns, because that's just not what 9 horns are designed to do. At least I don't think so.



Yeah same here. I get pretty damn good results from the brass spare a weird note here and there. It's not like it's meant to be some super nimble ninja anyway. Brutish stuff.


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## bfreepro (Jan 11, 2019)

Brian Nowak said:


> Yeah same here. I get pretty damn good results from the brass spare a weird note here and there. It's not like it's meant to be some super nimble ninja anyway. Brutish stuff.


I am not expecting it to be super nimble and tight, but it's obvious to me that just one of the staccato round robins has a different attack from the rest. It's obviously not as important as the strings but it's still apparent to me in certain note ranges. 



The second note in this phrase plays in different timing on each play thru, as if the note has moved up a bit in the sequencer. It's small, and it's not a deal breaker, but I swear I'm not making it up haha. It just follows the same pattern of inconsistent RR attack/timing. If I have a bunch of libraries layering over this same repeated note phrase, one (Ark) would be slightly out of sync with the rest. If I place a note to be played at a certain time, I just naturally expect it to be played at that time. Every other library I own performs this way with staccato notes. I donno.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts (Jan 11, 2019)

bfreepro said:


> It's small, and it's not a deal breaker, but I swear I'm not making it up haha.


Yeah, that's another issue to add to the list. It'd be annoying to nudge the midi note, and have the timing change each time you play back.

In the meantime, you might be able to do a quick fix by disabling round robins.


----------



## MartinH. (Jan 12, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> In the meantime, you might be able to do a quick fix by disabling round robins.



I don't think that is a good solution because one note might have the misaligned sample in slot 4, another note might have one in slot 2, and you'd be giving those up accross all notes even if those are perfectly fine. Also this only works with the single articulation because the multi doesn't have the RR slots exposed afaik.

Imho the way to work around this is to hit the RR reset key at the start of every midi clip and then - by ear - shift the problematic notes off the grid to make it sound as if they are on the grid. This works with the multi too.

The downside is, that with the next update when they fix these flaws, it will sound off again. Or maybe it doesn't if they can fix it in just the instrument files without touching the sample content, and distribute them in a v 1.3 folder so that both old and new can co-exist. I think that would be the way to go.

Alternatively to hitting the RR reset key every time, you can set the "new note resets RR" option to on and make the timer low enough to produce predictable results, but I'm leaning towards the manual method.



The main takeaway for me from all this is, that apparently all reviews of all sample products and all user opinions are essentially worthless for assessing the number of flaws in sample libraries, because no one ever meticulously tests all the samples and options and combinations (I mean how could they? It's impossible) and in consequence it always will be a gamble and you're well advised only to buy libraries that have resale options or really long refund windows, or come from devs that are known to fix their stuff rigorously, even if the bugs are found 5 years after release.


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## bfreepro (Jan 12, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> I don't think that is a good solution because one note might have the misaligned sample in slot 4, another note might have one in slot 2, and you'd be giving those up accross all notes even if those are perfectly fine. Also this only works with the single articulation because the multi doesn't have the RR slots exposed afaik.
> 
> Imho the way to work around this is to hit the RR reset key at the start of every midi clip and then - by ear - shift the problematic notes off the grid to make it sound as if they are on the grid. This works with the multi too.
> 
> ...


I am not holding out with any hope that it will be updated. I emailed support and all he said was he doesn’t hear anything wrong and users prefer it with imperfections. For some reason not many people seem to point these things out even tho it’s so glaring. People seem to love it and praise it for its bold sound and I’m sure it sells like hot cakes even after a few years. I’ll actually send this thread to the support ticket I have open, but I’m not really optimistic about it all being fixed at this point, sadly. Especially if it just had its first major update in years and the issues are still as apparent as ever.


----------



## MartinH. (Jan 12, 2019)

bfreepro said:


> I emailed support and all he said was he doesn’t hear anything wrong and *users prefer it with imperfections.* For some reason not many people seem to point these things out even tho it’s so glaring.


Well, I'm a user too and I certainly don't prefer broken timing that makes it _impossible _to get an even rythm out of the affected staccato samples. That's not an imperfection, that's a flaw, and I think it should be possible to fix it fairly easily. If I want imperfect timing, I will use the humanize feature in my DAW. 



bfreepro said:


> People seem to love it and praise it for its bold sound and I’m sure it sells like hot cakes even after a few years.


It has the best marketing in the entire VI world. I can respect that as an impressive feat on its own. But I'd rather have it be the _best _product in the VI world.



bfreepro said:


> I’ll actually send this thread to the support ticket I have open, but I’m not really optimistic about it all being fixed at this point, sadly. Especially if it just had its first major update in years and the issues are still as apparent as ever.


Thanks! Maybe I still have more hope because I can sympathize with the challenges of software development (and needing solid repro cases) and this is my first OT product and I've never dealt with them directly. But if they don't fix this stuff, it's likely gonna be my last OT product.


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## bfreepro (Jan 12, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> Well, I'm a user too and I certainly don't prefer broken timing that makes it _impossible _to get an even rythm out of the affected staccato samples. That's not an imperfection, that's a flaw, and I think it should be possible to fix it fairly easily. If I want imperfect timing, I will use the humanize feature in my DAW.
> 
> 
> It has the best marketing in the entire VI world. I can respect that as an impressive feat on its own. But I'd rather have it be the _best _product in the VI world.
> ...



I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said. Besides TIME Macro, I have not been too impressed with their libraries. They are not bad by any means, just never really blowing me away. To be fair, I do think it has something to do with the massive hype and unanimous praise they receive, as I see so many people say OT and Spitfire are the best sample companies today, and it may not even be possible to live up to that hype. I really don’t want to be overly negative as the overall sounds are very good, but the inconsistencies seem more glaring and obvious to me than with any other library I have ever used.

I have replied to the support email I got this morning, and have linked him to this specific thread. Even if nothing official comes from this as far as fixes, I can at least rest easy knowing I’m not completely insane and that others feel the same way about certain aspects of this library, heh.


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## Goldie Zwecker (Jan 12, 2019)

You know, i've been around here for a while. I have quite a lot of stuff from Spitfire and now also the Arks, after the latest sales. And all i see is some users say OT string shorts are rubbish, Spitfire string shorts are rubbish, Strezov Afflatus has phasing issues, Cinematic studio strings not realistic enough, etc etc. So i kinda wonder, what all these people consider as good libraries.


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## djrustycans (Jan 12, 2019)

I never leave MIDI running live at the end of projects so if there are ever any timing anomalies, I just edit these in the audio - admittedly that’s not ideal but in most cases not a huge problem.


----------



## bfreepro (Jan 12, 2019)

Goldie Zwecker said:


> You know, i've been around here for a while. I have quite a lot of stuff from Spitfire and now also the Arks, after the latest sales. And all i see is some users say OT string shorts are rubbish, Spitfire string shorts are rubbish, Strezov Afflatus has phasing issues, Cinematic studio strings not realistic enough, etc etc. So i kinda wonder, what all these people consider as good libraries.


Lol I actually saw the Afflatus phasing issue post earlier this morning. I often find points to critique with many libraries, but that doesn’t mean they are bad. It’s worth noting I own Afflatus, Albion One, Spitfire Woods, Spitfire Solo Strings, 8dio Century Strings and brass, EW Hollywood orchestra, Audio Imperia Jaeger... there’s probably more but I use each one them all the time, and none of them have the same issue with the shorts on multiple patches as MA1, so it’s nearly impossible not to notice it and be a bit frustrated. They all have weak points, but 95% of the time, they all consistently perform as you’d expect. I also know this thread turned a bit negative, so I again want to state that MA1 is NOT a bad library. It fills a niche and has EXCELLENT sounds, it is just sad knowing how much better it would be if the darn shorts synced up and it performed like all the others I mentioned. My issue really isn’t with the sounds, and I still think it is a good library, just not living up to the hype and held back quite a bit by the inconsistent performance.


----------



## MartinH. (Jan 12, 2019)

Goldie Zwecker said:


> You know, i've been around here for a while. I have quite a lot of stuff from Spitfire and now also the Arks, after the latest sales. And all i see is some users say OT string shorts are rubbish, Spitfire string shorts are rubbish, Strezov Afflatus has phasing issues, Cinematic studio strings not realistic enough, etc etc. So i kinda wonder, what all these people consider as good libraries.



They're all "good" (Ark 1 too), but none of them are "perfect". The "best" one for you is the one that only has issues that don't matter for your usecase.
I don't even consider myself "picky" when it comes to audio, I think if I can hear an issue, it must be so bad that everyone else can hear it too.


----------



## Jerry Growl (Jan 12, 2019)

Any DIY vids / tips / links out there that might help non-pro users adjust individual sample start positions for a sample that is clearly out of sync with the rest ? 

Often it's quicker, relaxer and more rewarding to fix or adjust things yourself than to write a complaint or to submit a support ticket. Not that I would not want a perfect product for the price we pay...


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## MartinH. (Jan 12, 2019)

Jerry Growl said:


> non-pro


You mean in Kontakt player? Don't think it's possible. Only option is to do what I explained in post #71 in this thread.


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## Jerry Growl (Jan 12, 2019)

Thanks for that.

An alternative would be to render to audio and then quantize the audio (using hitpoints in Cubase e.g.)

How about Kontakt full version, how do you find the individual 'out of sync' sample there? Any good advise for people who don't nudge samples for a living?

I'm currently watching this one:

 

Seems there's an equal amount of people trying to find ways to get samples sound less tight.


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## ggard17680 (Jan 12, 2019)

This is not an indictment on Orchestral Tools as a whole. Its just pointing out some obvious flaws in Ark 2 as a product that they released. Within minutes of trying the library I hit a mid strings sustain patch and deemed the releases unplayable as well as the extreme noise indicated by the audio tail of musicians rustling around in their seat after each string sample. Some imperfections can be expected but ones that make a specific instrument in my case the strings not useable is a problem.


----------



## Brian Nowak (Jan 12, 2019)

Goldie Zwecker said:


> You know, i've been around here for a while. I have quite a lot of stuff from Spitfire and now also the Arks, after the latest sales. And all i see is some users say OT string shorts are rubbish, Spitfire string shorts are rubbish, Strezov Afflatus has phasing issues, Cinematic studio strings not realistic enough, etc etc. So i kinda wonder, what all these people consider as good libraries.



Partly it's an internet thing. Once people get going it can become a dogpile very quickly. 

I don't know who complains about CSS. I mean it's still limited to certain areas because it's a sample library, but all CS stuff is some of the most consistently performing of all the libraries I own. 

Of course these libraries sound great and you can make very good music with all of them. I recently wrote a piece with the Arks, CSS, Berlin WW Revive, and Berlin Percussion. A handful of longtime working professionals were shocked to find out it was all samples. 

No library is "perfect" - they can't possibly do it all, and the more specialized a library is, the less it can do with ease. However, there's specialized, and then there's sloppy work. 

The issues that plague the Arks are mostly a result of just being sloppy, where it's 100% clear QC was rushed, or people just don't care to tighten things up, or they _literally_ did not even look at sections of their own product/update before release.

As a result of these undisciplined practices, their uses are negatively impacted. Detrimental? In some cases yes (Ark 2 mid string tails were bad enough that I would not use them in most situations). In most cases, not absolutely. But they become limiting or require a deal of editing, coverup work, or general jiggery pokery to hide. This impacts overall composition choices because if left exposed these problems would reveal themselves quite explicitly. 

Samples will never be "perfect" because they're fundamentally different from live performance. But when, as a result of what appears to be laziness or oversight, basic uses become problematic or even impossible, criticism is completely acceptable. 

OT is getting dumped on because they released products with some glaring issues, and then didn't fix some of those glaring issues when they finally did an update years later.


----------



## jbuhler (Jan 12, 2019)

bfreepro said:


> I also know this thread turned a bit negative, so I again want to state that MA1 is NOT a bad library. It fills a niche and has EXCELLENT sounds, it is just sad knowing how much better it would be if the darn shorts synced up and it performed like all the others I mentioned


For me, it’s not even the flaws themselves; it’s knowing that OT likely won’t fix them and if they do it will be long time in coming. While OT does not generally abandon older products, they do not do regular maintanence in the way Spitfire does, for instance. That said, I like my OT libraries a lot, I very much like working with the sound, I use them all the time, and it is reasonably rare that I encounter a problem. It’s certainly not every time I trot out an OT library that I encounter a problem.


----------



## jbuhler (Jan 12, 2019)

Brian Nowak said:


> In some cases yes (Ark 2 mid string tails were bad enough that I would not use them in most situations).


I only find these tails to be a problem if they are in an exposed situation and I'm trying to force the samples to play back at an overly loud volume for the sample. It's the same with the noise floor, which I don't encounter unless I draw it out with the gain. I find similar things with Tundra. My solution: if I want a louder sample, I use a different library. 

The legato in the low strings and to a lesser degree in the mid strings of Ark 2, on the other hand, does give me trouble, and I'm not sure if (1) I'm doing something wrong in my programming/playing, (2) I have the wrong expectation for what that legato is meant to sound like, or (3) the sustains and the legato transitions are not well matched. But no one else complains about it, so it's likely (1) or (2).


----------



## jamwerks (Jan 12, 2019)

I wonder if having to pay NI each time they publish an update would be a reason for them not doing quick fixes? (not sure that's how it works btw)

Short note start times would be really quick and easy for a skilled editor. Stuff like releases may involve not having the right samples to make it work differently/better.


----------



## jbuhler (Jan 12, 2019)

jamwerks said:


> I wonder if having to pay NI each time they publish an update would be a reason for them not doing quick fixes? (not sure that's how it works btw)
> 
> Short note start times would be really quick and easy for a skilled editor. Stuff like releases may involve not having the right samples to make it work differently/better.


Do they? The NI license doesn't change when they issue updates. They do incur bandwidth charges and I'm sure support has a lot more cases to deal with right after an update, so there is that cost as well. 

OT claims that they don't do frequent updates because customers complained about getting them too frequently once upon a time. I find that explanation dubious. I suspect they think the libraries work well enough and fixing the problems that exist is time consuming, expensive, and does not directly yield revenue. So they can spend that money on marginally improving an older product that won't much change sales or on developing new products that will likely yield substantial sales. From a business side, the decision is pretty easy, so long as the quality of the products continue to meet a certain standard.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts (Jan 12, 2019)

Here's what strikes me: They issue a fix for the Ark 2 mid string sustains, but only the multi and not the single. And the fix is missing the two highest notes. That's nuts. (EDIT: Missing only two stretched notes, not real content to be fair.)

I understand that finding all the bugs before a big release is a bit of a needle in a haystack problem. But when you issue a fix, it's a narrow set of things to focus on. How did they manage to goof that up?

If they want to issue infrequent fixes, that would give them more reason to pay attention to details.


----------



## jbuhler (Jan 12, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Here's what strikes me: They issue a fix for the Ark 2 mid string sustains, but only the multi and not the single. And the fix is missing the two highest notes.


I'm not sure what the issue you are having here is. The additional notes can be added to the multi by adjusting the notes in the highlighted oval. Everything above G4 is a stretched sample in any case.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts (Jan 12, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> Everything above G4 is a stretched sample in any case.


Ah, thanks for pointing this out. You're right. The multi is missing the two stretched notes and not any real content.

So these complaints both have easy workarounds. In my opinion they still demonstrate sloppiness from Orchestral Tools, but yes they are workable.


----------



## jbuhler (Jan 12, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Ah, thanks for pointing this out. You're right. So the multi is missing the two stretched notes and not any real content.
> 
> So these complaints both have easy workarounds. In my opinion they still demonstrate sloppiness from Orchestral Tools, but yes they are workable.


I'm not sure why the multi has a different upper range from the individual patches. I don't remember whether Ark 2 previously had a version of Capsule that allowed you to easily adjust the range. (I know at least one of the Arks did not.) But given that access to the range is now given on the front page of the GUI, I'm not bothered by this inconsistency. 

Still, I do think it seems likely that they had different people working on the multi than the individual patches, and that they were not coordinating their work. That does seem like a problem, and the difference between the release sample on the multi and the individual patch on that sustain is the kind of inconsistency that could lead to real headaches for someone using the library. (And even though I use primarily the multis, I often load the sustains separately because in the multi at least one is coupled to legato.)


----------



## Brian Nowak (Jan 12, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> I'm not sure why the multi has a different upper range from the individual patches. I don't remember whether Ark 2 previously had a version of Capsule that allowed you to easily adjust the range. (I know at least one of the Arks did not.) But given that access to the range is now given on the front page of the GUI, I'm not bothered by this inconsistency.
> 
> Still, I do think it seems likely that they had different people working on the multi than the individual patches, and that they were not coordinating their work. That does seem like a problem, and the difference between the release sample on the multi and the individual patch on that sustain is the kind of inconsistency that could lead to real headaches for someone using the library. (And even though I use primarily the multis, I often load the sustains separately because in the multi at least one is coupled to legato.)



Well, the problem of legato is very easily overcome by using the sustain pedal, which activates poly mode in the multi on legato patches. But yes, I have friends that don't use multis and they're a little more than vexed by the fact that the fix doesn't function for their workflow.

And while yes, @jbuhler, at appropriate volumes the noise floor in Ark 2 really isn't an issue. It's meant to be quiet. It's not meant to be as loud as ff libraries at its loudest. On the advice of Whitewasteland I bypass or very much turn down the stereo imager in the edit mode - all it does is boost various instruments by 10-11 db. The lack of tail in the mid strings was stark enough that I could always tell it was happening. It was clear they edited the samples poorly and I just didn't use them after that point.

And yes, while I very much like my OT products and use them every day that I write, my biggest problem with these issues is that there really is no "good" reason for them to exist. And yes, the fact that there is very likely no way they will be addressed, or if they are it will be years before they are addressed, is a major drawback.


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## MChangoM (Jan 15, 2019)

Orchestral String Runs and Sphere also received the same maintenance update.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Jan 15, 2019)

Inspire as well!


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## JonSolo (Jan 15, 2019)

OSR and Sphere were already updated if purchased via the NI sale correct?

And yes, I just received updates for both Inspire and Inspire 2.


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## MartinH. (Jan 18, 2019)

bfreepro said:


> I have replied to the support email I got this morning, and have linked him to this specific thread. Even if nothing official comes from this as far as fixes, I can at least rest easy knowing I’m not completely insane and that others feel the same way about certain aspects of this library, heh.



I'm disappointed that we didn't at least get a bullshit corporate answer a la "Thank you for your feedback, we value our customer's input and always strive to bla bla bla... no ETA for a fix".
Maybe they're all tangled up in the upcoming announcement event, I'll check back here in a month or so.


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## Heinigoldstein (Jan 18, 2019)

Mmh, do I miss something here or is it just me that did not get any update notification for ARK 2+3 ?


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## bfreepro (Jan 18, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> I'm disappointed that we didn't at least get a bullshit corporate answer a la "Thank you for your feedback, we value our customer's input and always strive to bla bla bla... no ETA for a fix".
> Maybe they're all tangled up in the upcoming announcement event, I'll check back here in a month or so.


Yeah I got no reply whatsoever.


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## MPortmann (Jan 18, 2019)

bfreepro said:


> Yeah I got no reply whatsoever.



Same here. No reply at all


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## bfreepro (Jan 21, 2019)

UPDATE:
Tobias has replied to my support email, apologized for the delay in response time, and among other things, has said:
“I fully understand your criticism and after diving into the patches, there are indeed a few RRs where the attacks can be tightened. I have set that on our todo list.”

So even if it doesn’t get fixed, I appreciate the efforts and want it to be known I did get a lengthy and courteous reply from support about the issues. This definitely helps to ease the frustration and while I still am quite disappointed with certain aspects of this library, at least we know they’ve recognized it as being a problem instead of saying nothing is wrong. I’d much rather be disappointed with one product than be disappointed with the support team of an entire company!


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## MartinH. (Jan 21, 2019)

bfreepro said:


> UPDATE:
> Tobias has replied to my support email, apologized for the delay in response time, and among other things, has said:
> “I fully understand your criticism and after diving into the patches, there are indeed a few RRs where the attacks can be tightened. I have set that on our todo list.”
> 
> So even if it doesn’t get fixed, I appreciate the efforts and want it to be known I did get a lengthy and courteous reply from support about the issues. This definitely helps to ease the frustration and while I still am quite disappointed with certain aspects of this library, at least we know they’ve recognized it as being a problem instead of saying nothing is wrong. I’d much rather be disappointed in one product than be disappointed in the support team of an entire company!



Thanks @OT_Tobias!


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## ggard17680 (Jan 21, 2019)

Hopefully they dont forget about the violas and there release times


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## jamwerks (Jan 21, 2019)

Hoping for another big sale on all things Berlin & Metropolis during NAMM!


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## KallumS (Jan 21, 2019)

jamwerks said:


> Hoping for another big sale on all things Berlin & Metropolis during NAMM!



I wouldn't hold my breath, the recent sale was because they upgraded their plugins to NKS - I doubt we'll see another notable sale for a long time.

Orchestral Tools rarely do sales, they only way that would change is if they saw how popular the recent sale was and change their policy. See this link for more info: http://www.helpdesk.orchestraltools.com/hd_sales_and_discounts.html


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jan 21, 2019)

bfreepro said:


> I appreciate the efforts and want it to be known I did get a lengthy and courteous reply from support about the issues. This definitely helps to ease the frustration and while I still am quite disappointed with certain aspects of this library, at least we know they’ve recognized it as being a problem instead of saying nothing is wrong.


It makes me happy to hear this.


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## jbuhler (Jan 21, 2019)

jamwerks said:


> Hoping for another big sale on all things Berlin & Metropolis during NAMM!


Well, if OT announces they will be producing future libraries for another sampler, as some have speculated, it would make that sale seem more like a fire sale, so I don't think they'd do it just to preserve the impression that they are not abandoning their Kontakt products.


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## bfreepro (Jan 21, 2019)

ggard17680 said:


> Hopefully they dont forget about the violas and there release times


If there are any specific issues anyone else is experiencing, I get the impression they want to hear about it, as this was also in the email: 

“So, long story short: It is on the list. Feel free to point me to any specific patches that you find need some love, just so that I don't forget any.
I've for now marked the strings and horn ensembles.”

You should send them an email and mention this specific issue.


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