# Good-Bye Mac Pro / Good-Bye Apple



## marcotronic (Nov 1, 2011)

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11 ... c_pro.html

>8o I really hope this will not happen...

Marco


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## dcoscina (Nov 1, 2011)

IF it happens I might jump ship to PC although my favourite DAW (DP) is Mac only. That said, Pro Tools is gaining strong ground on my 2nd fave DAW.


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## sbkp (Nov 1, 2011)

dcoscina... don't you use an iMac? Why would the Mac Pro's fate matter?

Still... If this does happen, I'm hoping for a Mac Not-Quite-So-Mini™


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## Scrianinoff (Nov 1, 2011)

Goodbye Apple Macintosh Pro.

Welcome EVGA Hackintosh Pro:

http://vr-zone.com/articles/evga-sr3-super-record-3-cometh/13788.html (http://vr-zone.com/articles/evga-sr3-su ... 13788.html)


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## dcoscina (Nov 1, 2011)

sbkp @ Tue Nov 01 said:


> dcoscina... don't you use an iMac? Why would the Mac Pro's fate matter?
> 
> Still... If this does happen, I'm hoping for a Mac Not-Quite-So-Mini™



Dude, I'm on a Mac Pro 2.66ghz with 15gb ram for like 4 years now.
Perhaps my signature over at Sounds Online needs to be updated. :mrgreen:


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## sbkp (Nov 1, 2011)

Uh... Oops?


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## dcoscina (Nov 1, 2011)

sbkp @ Tue Nov 01 said:


> Uh... Oops?



I hope Apple doesn't completely abandon the idea of a separate box for CPU/HD. I don't like using monitors with the CPU built in. Too much can go wrong...and less expandability.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 1, 2011)

Caution: don't get hysterical. 

I'm sure Apple will offer machines with more power than anything out today.


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## tripit (Nov 1, 2011)

I agree with Nick.


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## chimuelo (Nov 1, 2011)

Thunderbolt will change the game, but Apple will never allow EMagic to make it's own OS so you are going to be slaved to them, but who needs realtime in these days of static, motionlesss music...


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## muziksculp (Nov 2, 2011)

imho. The Mac Pro line is due for a complete re-design. (It's about time !)

With TB protocol, SSD's, Faster Multi-Core Processors, More RAM, ...etc.

A lighter, Slicker, more compact Re-designed Mac Pro would be a smart move from Apple. 

I'm not sure about Killing the Mac Pro line is a very wise decision for APPLE, but on the contrary, I think it's a bad one.


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## Mike Connelly (Nov 2, 2011)

I don't buy it at all. Similar rumors have come and gone for years. Unfortunately it looks like it will be early next year before the next generation from Intel so we won't see an update before then.


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## germancomponist (Nov 2, 2011)

I am not a computer freak, but, I am using computers for so many yeras and I never needed a Mac?! Did I something wrong at least?


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## gsilbers (Nov 2, 2011)

Mike Connelly @ Wed Nov 02 said:


> I don't buy it at all. Similar rumors have come and gone for years. Unfortunately it looks like it will be early next year before the next generation from Intel so we won't see an update before then.



most likley the mac pro is not a cash cow like the ipad is but apple still wants to full fill that niche. so sounds like apple is just slowing down the release dates as there is no reason to upgrade like it is in the strong competitive market of smart phones and tablets. 
today macpros are still very fast and poweful. and kinda reached the limit to what it can do. it can go faster but how many people need THAT much power. 
im with a 2009 mac pro and still pretty fast and i am comfortable with it. 
the 2011 ones should be almost twice as fast. >8o


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## synthnut (Nov 2, 2011)

I jump from one side of the fence to the other ...I don't want to get roped in on ANY particular computer .....Apple has made things now so you have to buy hardware from them ....It's getting harder to outfit an Apple with anything but Apple hardware anymore .....They're going overboard with their proprietary goals ..... No problem , I just finished building a new PC and had my choice of hardware ....and it runs faster for much less money too .....I will keep my Apple to go online with and it will now be a slave rather than the master .....Jim


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## NYC Composer (Nov 3, 2011)

synthnut @ Wed Nov 02 said:


> It's getting harder to outfit an Apple with anything but Apple hardware anymore .....



Ummm....except, of course, RAM, hard drives, monitors, printers, keyboards, mousies,
video cards, audio cards, anything that runs on USB or Firewire...I mean...huh?


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 3, 2011)

While I don't know how long it will take, in the long run Thunderbolt could address all the reasons =we still use towers, like internal pci-e cards and hard drives with the same or better performance as their being external. So I could certainly see .e a Mac Mini server or two or an iMac with 4 slots for RAM, each holding a 16 GB stick as being the future alternative to a tower.

I don't think it is anything to be all that concerned about.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 3, 2011)

I do think towers are going to go, and I do think Apple is de-focussing on the pro market.


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## dinerdog (Nov 3, 2011)

The sky is falling...


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## robh (Nov 3, 2011)

germancomponist @ Wed Nov 02 said:


> I am not a computer freak, but, I am using computers for so many yeras and I never needed a Mac?! Did I something wrong at least?


Oh yes. Definitely! :D 

Rob


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## synthnut (Nov 4, 2011)

NYC Composer,
OK ....You want to put a different/aftermarket HD in your iMac ? ( no new towers yet and maybe none at all ) No can do ...... The new HD's have a different way of reporting temps and the interface is different ...You can no longer use the old style HD's .....Apple drives only, and at a premium ...... How long has Thunderbolt been out ? .....How many aftermarket items do you see to compliment this new protocol ? ..... Perhaps I am jumping the gun here, but I surely would have thought that with the event of something as important as Thunderbolt , that there would have been a much larger influx of products that would have already been developed for it ... There's not enough product on the market to even speak of ......It all sounds great on paper .....Jim


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## Mike Connelly (Nov 4, 2011)

That's the whole point of the Mac Pro, it's the model to get if you plan on adding and replacing internal components like drives and video cards. With iMac, the vast majority of users are fine adding an external USB or FW drive and those needing something faster will be able to use TB when it becomes available.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 4, 2011)

synthnut and Mike Connelly, do you believe anyone will be using tower computers 15 years from now?

How about ten years?

Five?

Okay maybe five, but let me also ask and answer the next question: what does the huge case do that you can't duplicate in a laptop? Answers: circulate air for cooling more powerful CPUs and more RAM, hold six drives, and allow you to buy expensive internal cards that always go out of date before their time. 

I predict that Apple will have solutions for all of that when they kill the Mac Pro. (And even if the rumors are incorrect, they will surely kill it sooner than later.)


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## Mike Connelly (Nov 4, 2011)

Five years in the future anything is possible. I'm just talking about this specific rumor which says that the product is dead and won't ever be updated again.

I have no objection to killing off the MP once other models are able to do everything it does now. But that's still likely a ways off, and the concern here is that they'll kill the MP before an alternative model is ready to fill the void. TB is a step in the right direction, but it's likely to be a poor value compared to internal drives for a long time. If apple wanted to remedy that and speed up TB adoption they could sell their own external TB drives/cases at reasonable pricing but I don't see that happening.

Personally I'd love to see Apple release a midsize headless desktop machine, fast cpu, lots of ram slots (six or preferably eight), maybe one or two open PCI slots, a couple open drive bays (with hardware included to mount twice as many SSD drives in that space), multiple discrete TB busses. And it wouldn't really need to cost that much, if they wanted they could do a machine with iMac specs minus the screen and adding a couple PCI and drive bays for less than the cost of the equivalent iMac. Honestly it wouldn't take much more to make the mini a nice choice for sample playback.


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## synthnut (Nov 4, 2011)

Nick,
No, I don't think we will see towers for much longer ...... The only reason for me to want a tower in the first place was to have FAST internal drives without having to loose speed by attaching to either USB or Firewire ..... Firewire had been on it's way out , and USB is STILL not fast enough ....Enter .. Thunderbolt ....... As I said earlier ...It seems like a mean trick to have Thunderbolt in all your new machines hitting the marketplace BEFORE you even have any hardware to support it !!..... and to make matters even worse , they are putting Thunderbolt in machines that you would void the warranty on if you open them up to mod them , and then to add insult to injury , they have a proprietary connection to the HD's !!...... Call me stupid, but by the time any of the aftermarket companies have and Thunderbolt drives on the market , there will probably already be a new CPU change waiting to happen !!.... The future is here NOW and Apple is too busy playing with iPods and iPhones and iPads etc ..... You either waste your money building up a machine that will be outdated in a few months , or you wait for everyone to catch up with Thunderbolt ..... I'll wait until they get their act together and for now be very happy with a very fast PC that I built for very little money ......Jim


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## Synesthesia (Nov 4, 2011)

So how do we think for example a hot rodded mini, i7 2.7 GHz dual, with a 256GB SSD internal, 8 GB ram, would do as a sample playback machine? 

I know its bad form to use the internal HD to playback but I'm thinking elegance and minimalist here.. I wonder what the performance would be like!


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## spectrum (Nov 4, 2011)

Synesthesia @ Fri Nov 04 said:


> So how do we think for example a hot rodded mini, i7 2.7 GHz dual, with a 256GB SSD internal, 8 GB ram, would do as a sample playback machine?
> 
> I know its bad form to use the internal HD to playback but I'm thinking elegance and minimalist here.. I wonder what the performance would be like!


I have this exact rig in fact....and it rocks!


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## Synesthesia (Nov 4, 2011)

Eric! You're killing me..

Time to look at the Apple Store again!

:D


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## IFM (Nov 4, 2011)

synthnut @ Fri Nov 04 said:


> NYC Composer,
> OK ....You want to put a different/aftermarket HD in your iMac ? ( no new towers yet and maybe none at all ) No can do ...... The new HD's have a different way of reporting temps and the interface is different ...You can no longer use the old style HD's .....Apple drives only, and at a premium ......



This is why I bought a base model Mini as at first a slave but I thing it is faster than my 2006 quad pro. I put an SSD in bay 2 and am setting it up with Logic to test out.

Chris


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## P.T. (Nov 4, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Nov 04 said:


> synthnut and Mike Connelly, do you believe anyone will be using tower computers 15 years from now?
> 
> How about ten years?
> 
> ...



Are the current laptops good for heavy duty music work?
I always hear people saying that laptops are not so good for this.

Or are you thinking about future laptops?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 5, 2011)

I'm thinking about future whatever Apple comes out with to replace the towers, whether it's a Mini or something else.

Laptops have some limitations for music work compared to top-line desktop machines, but they're certainly not useless. A quad-core 2.4GHz i7 with 8GB and external drives is not chopped liver, for example, but it can't hold 32GB of RAM and two faster quad-core processors. So it depends.

All I'm saying is that there's no reason you can't put powerful processors and lots of RAM in something other than a tower box.


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## synthphonix (Nov 5, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ 2011-11-05 said:


> I'm thinking about future whatever Apple comes out with to replace the towers, whether it's a Mini or something else.
> 
> Laptops have some limitations for music work compared to top-line desktop machines, but they're certainly not useless. A quad-core 2.4GHz i7 with 8GB and external drives is not chopped liver, for example, but it can't hold 32GB of RAM and two faster quad-core processors. So it depends.
> 
> All I'm saying is that there's no reason you can't put powerful processors and lots of RAM in something other than a tower box.



Heat is probably the limiting factor right now. As the dies get smaller and power consumption lowers, this will be less of a problem. I'd say within the next couple of years we will see laptops and minis (mac or win) with more computing power than any tower today

... but on the flip-side, that also means you could pack even more power into a tower in the future. With 5k video creeping into the indie/consumer scene today, I think there will still be a need for "power-towers" for many years to come.


Maybe in 20 years we'll just get implants that spit our thoughts out to anyone willing to see or hear them ... a short film idea that's been in my head for a while "beamed-by-thought" out to anyone that wants to tune in and watch :shock:


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 5, 2011)

Yes, I mentioned heat above, but that's only a limitation if it's air-cooled.


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## José Herring (Nov 6, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Nov 05 said:


> I'm thinking about future whatever Apple comes out with to replace the towers, whether it's a Mini or something else.
> 
> Laptops have some limitations for music work compared to top-line desktop machines, but they're certainly not useless. A quad-core 2.4GHz i7 with 8GB and external drives is not chopped liver, for example, but it can't hold 32GB of RAM and two faster quad-core processors. So it depends.
> 
> All I'm saying is that there's no reason you can't put powerful processors and lots of RAM in something other than a tower box.



I have a feeling that we'll be working on mac minis or Imacs. My gut is telling me that the way Apple is heading, that using Mac for specific functions will be the future. But for overall music production, PC just seem to be steadily moving ahead. And, they are doing so for one reason only. You can pretty much custom configure your PC to match your exact needs, where as on Mac you have to adapt to what it will let you do. As long as Apple keeps on going in the direction of limiting its devices' functionality, then they'll become more and more troublesome for music makers, who, really need an open ended computer system to take advantage of the millions of pieces of little software that make up a complete music production system.


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## germancomponist (Nov 6, 2011)

josejherring @ Sun Nov 06 said:


> I have a feeling that we'll be working on mac minis or Imacs. My gut is telling me that the way Apple is heading, that using Mac for specific functions will be the future. But for overall music production, PC just seem to be steadily moving ahead. And, they are doing so for one reason only. You can pretty much custom configure your PC to match your exact needs, were as on Mac you have to adapt to what it will let you do. As long as Apple keeps on going in the direction of limiting its devices' functionality, then they'll become more and more troublesome for music makers, who, really need an open ended computer system to take advantage of the millions of pieces of little software that make up a complete music production system.



+1


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## mm (Nov 6, 2011)

I have a very strong feeling that Apple is going to be moving in the direction of Thunderbolt-based clusters for high power computing. The will probably provide a chassis of some kind with the ability to slide in modules. They will produce a Mac Mini which fits perfectly, as well as provide specs for hard drive and other manufacturers to also produce modules. Even better, the chassis will probably allow daisy chaining for even more power. This will be topped off by software that makes the whole thing appear as one seamless and scalable computer. 

It will be a much better system for everyone. Need more power? Buy another Mac Mini! This will allow you to upgrade a little bit every year instead of in one massive step every 3-5 years. It allows Apple to meet the needs of Pro users much better while using mostly commodity hardware they produce for mere mortals. It is a much better strategy which sidesteps the fact that a rapidly declining number of users really need high end power.


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## midphase (Nov 6, 2011)

Seems reasonable...an Apple version of the 500 series lunch boxes!


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Nov 6, 2011)

Why are you calling this thread "good bye apple" then?


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## Mike Greene (Nov 6, 2011)

mm @ Sun Nov 06 said:


> I have a very strong feeling that Apple is going to be moving in the direction of Thunderbolt-based clusters for high power computing. The will probably provide a chassis of some kind with the ability to slide in modules. They will produce a Mac Mini which fits perfectly, as well as provide specs for hard drive and other manufacturers to also produce modules. Even better, the chassis will probably allow daisy chaining for even more power. This will be topped off by software that makes the whole thing appear as one seamless and scalable computer.


That would make a lot of sense. These external chassises (what the heck is the plural of chassis???) could then come in different sizes, so if someone needed a ton of PCI slots, he could get the jumbo chassis, while the guy who just needs one PCI slot would have a smaller option. Another benefit would be when Apple goes from PCI to PCIe to PCIx, nobody gets left behind with outdated cards, since the old chassis will still work through Thunderbolt.

Much as I like the Mac Mini, though (that's what I'm typing this on,) they're a b**ch to change ram or hard drives or any of that. Not that I'm adding hard drives every day, but it's nice to open up that big door on a Mac Pro and know that even an ape like me can do it.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 6, 2011)

"what the heck is the plural of chassis"

Chassis.


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## cc64 (Nov 6, 2011)

Mike Greene @ Sun Nov 06 said:


> These external chassises (what the heck is the plural of chassis???)



It's actually a french word, châssis, and it's one of the rare words in french that are invariable, singular or plural.

Ok back to our regular program ; )

Interesting thread BTW

Claude


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## mm (Nov 6, 2011)

Mike Greene @ Sun Nov 06 said:


> These external chassises (what the heck is the plural of chassis???) could then come in different sizes, so if someone needed a ton of PCI slots, he could get the jumbo chassis, while the guy who just needs one PCI slot would have a smaller option. Another benefit would be when Apple goes from PCI to PCIe to PCIx, nobody gets left behind with outdated cards, since the old chassis will still work through Thunderbolt.



Don't expect PCI built in. Apple won't do that. They'll do Thunderbolt only. You might be able to get third party PCI modules that plug into the Thunderbolt though...


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## Garlu (Nov 6, 2011)

Some 3rd companies are already designing some pcie to thunderbolt expansions: 

http://www.sonnettech.com/product/thund ... index.html
http://www.magma.com/thunderbolt.asp
http://www.netstor.com.tw/_03/03_02.php?ODI= (this one is similar to the magma chassis, but they are still working on the thunderbolt "output" from the chassis).


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 6, 2011)

Magma makes one for a grand.

But that's a niche product, not a solution going forward.

http://www.magma.com/thunderbolt.asp


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## midphase (Nov 6, 2011)

Mike Greene @ Sun Nov 06 said:


> Much as I like the Mac Mini, though (that's what I'm typing this on,) they're a b**ch to change ram or hard drives or any of that. Not that I'm adding hard drives every day, but it's nice to open up that big door on a Mac Pro and know that even an ape like me can do it.



The new Mac Minis have considerably easier accessible chassis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdGCHZRMAW8


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## spectrum (Nov 6, 2011)

midphase @ Sun Nov 06 said:


> Mike Greene @ Sun Nov 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Much as I like the Mac Mini, though (that's what I'm typing this on,) they're a b**ch to change ram or hard drives or any of that. Not that I'm adding hard drives every day, but it's nice to open up that big door on a Mac Pro and know that even an ape like me can do it.
> ...


Very true...but upgrading the drive is insanely hard....only something a very good tech can do.


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## mm (Nov 7, 2011)

But I think the idea will be to not upgrade the drive. The idea will be to add a Thunderbolt drive into a slot to increase storage, or to swap out the Mac Mini if you want to upgrade the processing power. The drive on the Mini will probable be treated more as a cache than as permanent storage. Think modular computing...


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## NYC Composer (Nov 7, 2011)

Perhaps they will leave the Mini as is, and offer the power user "the Mickey". 

Or even "the Mighty"! Instead of the iconic Apple start-up sound, it could sing :



"HERE I COME TO SAVE THE DAAAAAAAY!!!!!"


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## José Herring (Nov 7, 2011)

I could give a damn about the Mac hardware. In very many ways even a new mac pro will be behind the curve in just a matter of moments from release. I mean c'mon guys they're still using liquid filled caps on the motherboard. That's so 2005 of them. 

What I really want them to do is now that Jobs is dead and ashes is to do what they should have done 10 years ago. Release OSX as a standalone OS that you can put on any computer. That would be cool.

José


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## chimuelo (Nov 7, 2011)

I still remember EMagic was to get it's own version of OSX.
I loved Logic Silver back in the early 90's as it was even better at MIDI sequencing than my MC500-MKII or QX-1. I waited and waited.
Logic is a great DAW, I envy it's users as it seems to be the best host and has excellent MIDI, but imagine if it had a RISC design and got rid of the enslavement nonsense that Apple and M$ use.


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## midphase (Nov 7, 2011)

josejherring @ Mon Nov 07 said:


> What I really want them to do is now that Jobs is dead and ashes is to do what they should have done 10 years ago. Release OSX as a standalone OS that you can put on any computer. That would be cool.



Why? So that OS X will run as crappily on a PC as Windows 7 does? Or so that everybody and their brother can pirate the crap out of it and Apple can move towards bankruptcy again?


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## José Herring (Nov 7, 2011)

midphase @ Mon Nov 07 said:


> josejherring @ Mon Nov 07 said:
> 
> 
> > What I really want them to do is now that Jobs is dead and ashes is to do what they should have done 10 years ago. Release OSX as a standalone OS that you can put on any computer. That would be cool.
> ...



It's already being pirated and OSX actually runs better on non-Apple hardware. As far as Windows 7 running crappy. A Quad core windows machine actually outperforms an 8 core OSX machine, so I don't get why you think that Windows 7 runs crappy. Do you own a Windows machine?


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## Mike Greene (Nov 7, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Mon Nov 07 said:


> Perhaps they will leave the Mini as is, and offer the power user "the Mickey".
> 
> Or even "the Mighty"! Instead of the iconic Apple start-up sound, it could sing :
> 
> "HERE I COME TO SAVE THE DAAAAAAAY!!!!!"


And *I'm* the one with a warning???

:mrgreen:


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## Mike Connelly (Nov 7, 2011)

josejherring @ Mon Nov 07 said:


> It's already being pirated



But not as widely as it would be if it was designed to run on any hardware out of the box. Not to mention that it would have the potential to cannibalize Apple's hardware sales. While it would be popular with users, it would probably make a lot less money for Apple, so it's not going to happen.

Look at Pro Tools/Avid. I think it's great that they finally have a hardware independent version but since releasing it their stock has gone down to an all time low and the company seems to have no clue about how to keep customers happy and actually make a profit.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 7, 2011)

> Release OSX as a standalone OS that you can put on any computer.



My official pronouncement from the armchair:

NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

Steve Jobs would rise from the dead and prevent it.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 7, 2011)

> OSX actually runs better on non-Apple hardware.... A Quad core windows machine actually outperforms an 8 core OSX machine



I'll just have to take your word for that, but the problem with the Mac Pro line is that...stop me if I already said this in this thread...both pound for pound and intrinsically, it's become hideously expensive. That's why the rumor sites are rumoring that Apple is rumored to be unhappy with the rumored lack of sales.

The first Mac Pros were actually less expensive than a list of comparable parts on the internet, but they've fallen way behind over the past couple of years - in fact I wouldn't be surprised if it were farther behind than any time in history. They've also become ridiculously expensive period; I've never spent $4500 on a computer, adjusted or for inflation or not. It's simply not worth that much money - regardless of the performance or value. The most demanding software is still running well on a 2008 machine that sold for half the price back then, and that was before the world collapsed and people were still spending money.

Meanwhile Eastwest Lurker just put together a shrieking Windows machine with Jose's help for $1500.

So it would be more of a surprise if Apple *weren't* re-thinking their top-line machines. The highest-end computers have always been lower volume/higher profit, but the iMacs and laptops are all way more competitive. So is the iPad, by the way - it's a very good deal.

But again, I'd be surprised if they simply knocked the Mac Pros on the head without a suitable replacement.


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## spectrum (Nov 7, 2011)

josejherring @ Mon Nov 07 said:


> It's already being pirated and OSX actually runs better on non-Apple hardware.


Hang on...a little perspective please. 

FYI, our tech support department at Spectrasonics is loaded every day with people experiencing tons of non-fixable compatibility problems with "Hackintoshes".

So no, I wouldn't say that OSX runs "better" on anything but real Mac hardware....especially for music production.

Cheers,

spectrum


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## José Herring (Nov 7, 2011)

Jay gives me waayyy to much credit for helping him. He did all the work, all I did was try to get him to avoid the pitfalls of building windows machines and to make the process as painless as possible.

As far as the Mac, I just want Apple to be as inventive in the future on the pro line as they have been in the past. PC actually benefits greatly from Apple advancements on the ProLine. And, I can't imagine a PC making significant improvements without Apple paving the way. Hell if it wasn't for the Mac Pro us PC users would still be having to screw in our HD with those little tiny annoying screws instead of having toolless cases.


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## José Herring (Nov 7, 2011)

spectrum @ Mon Nov 07 said:


> josejherring @ Mon Nov 07 said:
> 
> 
> > It's already being pirated and OSX actually runs better on non-Apple hardware.
> ...



For the record I don't use a Hackintosh. I hate the idea. But, I have done some research on it. It's possible to have a flawless Hackintosh, but you have to essential build the MacPro part for part in the PC world. Intel Boards, same video cards mac uses, ect...

I'd tell your Hackintosh customers that you won't help them unless they send you the specs to their machine. If they're using cheapo parts tell them you can't help them. It's not your fault that your software won't run on a $500 Gateway hackintosh.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 7, 2011)

Or sic Hayward U. Buzov, the customer service manager from Car Talk, on them.


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## MichaelL (Nov 7, 2011)

dcoscina @ Tue Nov 01 said:


> IF it happens I might jump ship to PC although my favourite DAW (DP) is Mac only. That said, Pro Tools is gaining strong ground on my 2nd fave DAW.



Sorry to briefly hijack. I think DP may follow MAC into the dust bin. 64 bit promises for two years...


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## José Herring (Nov 7, 2011)

MichaelL @ Mon Nov 07 said:


> dcoscina @ Tue Nov 01 said:
> 
> 
> > IF it happens I might jump ship to PC although my favourite DAW (DP) is Mac only. That said, Pro Tools is gaining strong ground on my 2nd fave DAW.
> ...



They need to port DP over to PC. That's just long over due imo.


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## antoniopandrade (Nov 7, 2011)

Why does one even need a DAW in 64-bit if you have stuff like VEPro and RAM servers these days? Does 64-bit show actual performance increases?


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## Mike Connelly (Nov 8, 2011)

antoniopandrade @ Mon Nov 07 said:


> Why does one even need a DAW in 64-bit if you have stuff like VEPro and RAM servers these days? Does 64-bit show actual performance increases?



Even with the Kontakt ram server it runs big instruments much better in 64 bit Logic. And if stuff runs great in 64 bit Logic, I don't see the need for me to spend the money and do the extra setup for VEP on a single machine.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 8, 2011)

Mike Connelly @ Tue Nov 08 said:


> antoniopandrade @ Mon Nov 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Why does one even need a DAW in 64-bit if you have stuff like VEPro and RAM servers these days? Does 64-bit show actual performance increases?
> ...



VEP was great for me during the year between my buying it and Cubase 64 on Mac finally coming out. The bonus orchestra also had two solo instruments I loved. I'd say if you were on DP 32, it might still be a buy on a single computer.


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## MikeH (Nov 8, 2011)

Ugh. DP 64 needs to happen soon before I switch to Logic.


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## tripit (Nov 8, 2011)

MichaelL @ Mon Nov 07 said:


> dcoscina @ Tue Nov 01 said:
> 
> 
> > IF it happens I might jump ship to PC although my favourite DAW (DP) is Mac only. That said, Pro Tools is gaining strong ground on my 2nd fave DAW.
> ...



No, I don't agree at all. DP will come out in 64. They are a smaller company that has been around longer than then most of you can remember and have always released sloooowly. That's why they are still on 7 while everyone else is 9 or 10. They have a very different business culture then Apple or Avid. The company is still privately owned by one person and he does things his way. I can remember waiting forever between a few updates. PT would be cranking out an update every few months and DP would take over a year. Drove everyone nuts, but most stay loyal because it is a really worthy app, particularly for scoring.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 8, 2011)

> Why does one even need a DAW in 64-bit if you have stuff like VEPro and RAM servers these days?



Well, VE Pro isn't free. I think it's the best thing since sliced bread and Bose Quietcomfort headphones, but it is an extra expense that some people may not want to make - especially if you're not running slave machines.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 8, 2011)

And I see Mike Connelly said the same thing. I'm a day late and a dollar short.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 8, 2011)

For some reason, single apps (Cubase for me) seem to crap out on CPU power earlier than Activity Monitor says they should. When I move things out of Cubase (to VE Pro) I seem to use CPU to its full potential. Core balancing? I dunno.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Nov 9, 2011)

I am a windows guy. Have been since the begening. However, in University I used to use Macs because thats all we had but when I got back to my flat, i would work on a PC.

I was using Pro Tools on Mac in Uni and Pro Tools on PC at home. I dont recall having specific problems at the time. Both were running really well. The newer Macs at uni outperformed my PC because I would punish them with a ton of GRM plug ins. But that was only because I did not have the equivalent PC hardware.

I have no reason to shift from PC as it runs quite well and contrary to popular belief, I have not had any virus problems for the past 6 years. Windows 7 has never crashed in the last two years and I have never formatted my PC since I got Windows 7. Its seriously, never crashed. Cubase has many times though!

What i really like about Apple is the simplicity and tested hardware. Mac Pro is Mac Pro and it is only made by one company - Apple!

PC suffers from a plethora of really crappy hardware on the market. Anyone and everyone is making something for the PC. This puts enourmous pressure on Windows as a OS - everything must work!

If Windows was making computers that were designed as well as apple computers, i would be very happy. 

I mean, there is ADK pro but those guys are only in the US.

As of today, I think its safe to say that Apple's computer design and manufacturing quality is the best on the market. The Chassis, build quality and design is just top-notch.

For PC, you really have to look and look and keep looking to find the right stuff. However, once you have it, its really an awesome machine!

I am not aware of OSX problems but lot of great people making music on both PC and Mac. 

To me, its always the guy sitting behind the machine. These are just tools, the person using them has to be a master of it. 

What some people can do on Logic, they cant do on Cubase and Vice-Versa. Its just what one is comfortable with.

but yes, if Apple came up with somethin the PC just could not do and if it was beneficial to me or was in a new direction that was really promising, then I would consider moving.


I think both are great!


Best,

Tanuj.


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## José Herring (Nov 9, 2011)

Tanuj,

Have you ever had problems transferring PT files from PC to Mac? I'm curious if this is easy to do or not. I'd like to get a PC just to run PT, but that would be worthless if I can't easily transfer sessions to somebody that is running PT on Mac.


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## Daryl (Nov 9, 2011)

josejherring @ Wed Nov 09 said:


> Tanuj,
> 
> Have you ever had problems transferring PT files from PC to Mac? I'm curious if this is easy to do or not. I'd like to get a PC just to run PT, but that would be worthless if I can't easily transfer sessions to somebody that is running PT on Mac.


Nah, it's absolutely fine. It's the other way that used to be a PITA if the engineer forgot to tick the PC compatibility box. I don't even think there is a box now (is there?), but in any case it's PT 101 for a Mac user.

D


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## José Herring (Nov 9, 2011)

thx, that's good to know. My primary use would be to transfer my Cubase tracks to PT for delivery. So in this case PT would just be a mixdown deck or a file delivery system. And, I just haven't been able to justify getting a brand new Mac just for that.


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## cc64 (Jan 7, 2012)

Hi 

just a minor refresh on what's going on in the MacPro future or non-future.

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/01/02/mac ... uncertain/

Best,

Claude


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## charlieclouser (Jan 7, 2012)

cc64 @ Sat Jan 07 said:


> Hi
> 
> just a minor refresh on what's going on in the MacPro future or non-future.
> 
> ...



The long ship times on BTO Mac Pros are because of hard drive shortages. Go to the Apple Store website and specify a 12-core machine with SSD boot drive - it shows that it will ship in 2-4 days. Specifying any configuration with conventional HDs causes the ship time to jump to 1-3 weeks. 

The source of all of the rumors about the Mac Pro's future looking bleak is the same source that erroneously predicted the death of the Mac Mini a few years back, and the internet speculators have built a mountain out of this single rumor molehill....

Here's what the Apple site showed me this afternoon on a 12-core machine with SSD boot drive:


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 7, 2012)

That's too much money for a damn computer!


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## david robinson (Jan 7, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Jan 07 said:


> That's too much money for a damn computer!



ha,

if you consider money an obstacle to ANYTHING, u r simply not rich enough.
lol.
j.

nick, i agree, but Macs are the best build.
and when used in an audio context, they are cheap, if you take into account what a well designed room and and excellent monitors come in at nowadays.
j.


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## jleckie (Jan 7, 2012)

charlieclouser @ Sat Jan 07 said:


> The source of all of the rumors about the Mac Pro's future looking bleak is the same source that erroneously predicted the death of the Mac Mini a few years back, and the internet speculators have built a mountain out of this single rumor molehill....



well-when all of the major mac magazine editors are fearing the worse (and believe me THOSE guys generally are the most optimistic mac lovers you can run across) then I'd tend to believe them more than anyone else...


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## chimuelo (Jan 7, 2012)

I was told Solaris was too much money for a synth, the XITE-1 was too much money for a 1U DSP soundcard, but the 64k question is the ROI.'
Since I still gig like crazy and sold hardware to satisfy the wife it was a no brainer.
Just depends how you justify it.
All I know is Logic is such a great host, and the ESX is a great sampler.
12 Cores means lot's of action either way you shake it.

I also remember when Buchla stepped in and saved the Gibson Oberheim OBX-m and they said he'd never sell anymore synths.
I guess they never saw or heard the Series 225e.
Makes my SE-1X's look like a ROMpler...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 7, 2012)

Just so you know, David, I've bought about 25 Macs and have been working on the silly things literally all day long every day for the past 25 years. 

But I've never spent more than the high $2k range for one.


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## rgames (Jan 7, 2012)

charlieclouser @ Sat Jan 07 said:


> The long ship times on BTO Mac Pros are because of hard drive shortages. Go to the Apple Store website and specify a 12-core machine with SSD boot drive - it shows that it will ship in 2-4 days. Specifying any configuration with conventional HDs causes the ship time to jump to 1-3 weeks.
> 
> The source of all of the rumors about the Mac Pro's future looking bleak is the same source that erroneously predicted the death of the Mac Mini a few years back, and the internet speculators have built a mountain out of this single rumor molehill....
> 
> Here's what the Apple site showed me this afternoon on a 12-core machine with SSD boot drive:


Sorry guys - I think Macs are fine pieces of hardware but you're really getting bamboozled if you're spending $7650 for ANY personal computer. Seriously - that's obscene and it actually makes me a little mad that anyone would waste that much money.

Can't you think of better things to do with your money? There are better causes out there - this is pure greed. Is that really what you want to support?

To each his own, though...

rgames


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## david robinson (Jan 7, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Jan 07 said:


> Just so you know, David, I've bought about 25 Macs and have been working on the silly things literally all day long every day for the past 25 years.
> 
> But I've never spent more than the high $2k range for one.



i'd rather spend money on a mic than a Mac, at the same price point.

all these things a just tools to get a job done for me.

best,
j.


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## mverta (Jan 8, 2012)

rgames @ Sat Jan 07 said:


> if you're spending $7650 for ANY personal computer. Seriously - that's obscene and it actually makes me a little mad that anyone would waste that much money.
> 
> rgames



My primary visual fx workstations are 12-core, 24GB RAM boxes with 160MB SSD system drives, 6TB of Raided on-board storage, and Quadro5000 video cards. They run me about $7500/ea. The speed and capacity is necessary for me to take computationally-intensive projects with confidence, which earns me more money, which gives me more to donate to charitable causes. I'm sorry this upsets you.

_Mike


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 8, 2012)

Mike, Richard is wrong about almost every subject in the universe, but I think in this case your application is one of the few exceptions that proves the rule.

I vaguely remember you posting that you use the same machine I do for running your sequencer: an 8 x 2.8GHz Xeon. These machines were a third the price of the $7.5K 12-core, and they're still worth over half what we paid for them on the used market.

Edit: and they still do a good job! I forgot to mention the most important part.


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## chimuelo (Jan 8, 2012)

Wait a minute is that Charlie C. from NIN...?
WoW....a real treat having him here if it is.
Paul Tanti use to make stuff from Scope DSP like FX, and Hummel made some synths that somebody in NIN was using. WHoever it was thanks, as these custom devices were given to users for free with the permission of Reznor I think.
Great Stuff, and Great Band too....
And now you're the Saw guy too right.......??

That's great to see and hear of such hard working chaps suceeding so well.

Got a 225e yet..?


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## gsilbers (Jan 8, 2012)

mverta @ Sun Jan 08 said:


> rgames @ Sat Jan 07 said:
> 
> 
> > if you're spending $7650 for ANY personal computer. Seriously - that's obscene and it actually makes me a little mad that anyone would waste that much money.
> ...



i too was 1st disgusted and amazed at how much post production equipment cost in comparison to music. 

just one VTR machine like a SONY HDcam-SR 5500 is about $150.000
which is the tape format its used for HD broadcasting. to make a copy/dub you need 2 of those. 

or an AVID rig with RAID arrays... 

any dolby equipment. 

and if anyone knows what high end encoding entails will know those "computers" are about $50k minimum.. average of 100k if you license all the formats. 


but any of those jobs charge a lot per hour and they are ran 24/7. so they are paid in full in no time.


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## Gerd Kaeding (Jan 8, 2012)

cc64 @ Sat Jan 07 said:


> Hi
> 
> just a minor refresh on what's going on in the MacPro future or non-future.
> 
> ...



Meanwhile_ all _MacPro Models in the German Apple Store are announced to be delivered in 1-3 weeks.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 8, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Jan 08 said:


> Mike, Richard is wrong about almost every subject in the universe, but I think in this case your application is one of the few exceptions that proves the rule.
> 
> I vaguely remember you posting that you use the same machine I do for running your sequencer: an 8 x 2.8GHz Xeon. These machines were a third the price of the $7.5K 12-core, and they're still worth over half what we paid for them on the used market.
> 
> Edit: and they still do a good job! I forgot to mention the most important part.



+1.

The 2008 2.8ghz 8 core (that's a lot of eights!) that I bought as a refurb is one of the bigger bargains I've ever gotten. It's been rock solid and is still fairly powerful. The only things it won't run without help- HB/HS.


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## adg21 (Mar 26, 2012)

I went to the BVE expo / trade fair recently and saw how much more people working in visuals spend on gear than people working in audio. It's more like 10s of thousands and their software is usually more expensive too.


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