# VSL Brass Dimension audio demos up and.....



## synergy543 (Jan 16, 2011)

David I agree with you Guy Bacos did a stunning job on "Ride of the Gallant Horseman". Aside from beautifully showing the various contrasting orchestral colors of Dimension Brass and its expansive power, the piece uses some very interesting harmonies too. I assume Guy only used Dimension Brass on this demo. However, when you consider it can also be combined with all of the existing brass instruments, the possibilities have been greatly expanded.

btw, here is a direct link to Guy Bacos - "Ride of the Gallant Horseman"

Greg


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## jamwerks (Jan 16, 2011)

4 great examples. Personally, I think the Christian Kardeis example is outstanding, especially the strings and the mix in general. Great sounding brass on all, especially considering the relatively few articulations at hand. I agree that the reverb is maybe a little heavy here and there in the brass. Of course it would be great to hear the same, using just their Brass I, but that would be asking too much! o-[][]-o


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## José Herring (Jan 16, 2011)

I'm starting to warm up to them more. I think the expressiveness is what convinces me rather than the sound quality. 

Jose


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## Marius Masalar (Jan 16, 2011)

Okay...well I'm actually having the exact opposite reaction to these...I was more excited about this when it was just the video and I was hearing what I figured were just rough examples.

All of the audio examples seem to be absolutely swimming in unconvincing reverb which makes listening for the nuances annoying. The samples clearly have a good deal of playability (especially with VI-Pro), but many of the cool features they're talking about are features of VI-Pro, not Dimension Brass, and the specs of this collection simply aren't flooring me. For what it is I suppose it's great, but this isn't the next-gen brass library I was waiting for.

Major kudos to the gents on VSL's demo team for putting together some wicked tracks though — some great writing. Not selling me on the samples though, truly sorry. :(


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## Mr. Anxiety (Jan 16, 2011)

Christian's demo is the most realistic and film like of the bunch. His use of reverb definitely is showcasing the brass library the best, IMO.

I'm getting a pretty good feeling about the library, but agree that it would be nice to get my hands on it and get the er/verb situation more managed.

Maybe they could post a dry only brass stripe so everyone could add their own verbs to test it out?????

Mr A.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 16, 2011)

Ride of the gallant Horseman (with less reverb)


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## dcoscina (Jan 16, 2011)

Guy, did your demos use Vienna Suite or the built in verb from VI PRO? I like the VI PRO verb because it's smooth but I find I always have to change the room size and wetness because it defaults to being too vacuous for my tastes. 

I have ordered Vienna Brass Dimension and it looks like I'm gonna shell out the $$$ for Nick Phoenix's terrific Spaces so I will see how they sound in his IRs probably with a smaller hall setting. Should sound terrific. I know my other VSL stuff does with Spaces.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 16, 2011)

Hi David,

Well first of all, thanks for the very kind words. I am really excited about these brass instruments and more so their potential, as always there is some adaptation to do regarding the mixes and reverb, probably due to the great depth of these instruments and VI PRO, the possibilities are endless, and since I only had a few days, I imagine the same for the others, I preferred to stick to altiverb for this time. There is no way in the world I would of attempted a demo like this with what I had before, and the flexibility of the articulations make it easy. I know you'll enjoy it too.

In my own demo, I didn't want to mix DB with the other VSL brass, but in the slow section I could of had more vibrato on the top notes for example, if I were to mix the samples.

I personally like my piece with more reverb, but whatever.


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## midphase (Jan 16, 2011)

I think this is the best product to come out of the VSL guys in a while. After a few questionable choices, they seem to be back on track with good libraries...let's hope it keeps going.

Price is not terrible either.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 17, 2011)

No-one else has picked up on it, but that glitch on the Imperial March really bugs me. We've all heard this effect from sample players that are struggling in some way, and it slightly alarms me to hear it in an official demo. Am I reading too much into it, or is this library / VI Pro a major resource hog?


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## Lex (Jan 17, 2011)

Guy Bacos @ Mon Jan 17 said:


> Ride of the gallant Horseman (with less reverb)



Thanks for this!

aLex


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## Hicks (Jan 17, 2011)

I am listening to the demos!

Imperial March, great!! The brass are really full of life with a lot of dynamics at the end of the notes!

Woodwinds during the bridge also, great!

I am sold, the only bad point is the run at the very end which sounds really fake, but Jay is only using VSL and we know that VSL is not the best for it, but with OSR, Symphobia or HS, it is solved easily. so no worry.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 17, 2011)

One of my favorite aspects of this library is that you can work extremely fast with VI PRO. 

Maybe at the moment we are still finding ourselves in the mixing aspect, which is natural I think, after a few days only, but when you play around the samples, such as on the video, they are as realistic as they can get, especially when playing chords, and I honestly mean that.

Of course, more demos to come.


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## Hicks (Jan 17, 2011)

Whouh the Matrix like example for Christian Kardeis!! Sold me also!!!

Men, you are very talentuous!


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## dcoscina (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm sold as well. Truth be told, it's possible that Hollywood Brass might be better sonically but the thought of no 64 bit and PLAY are points against it no matter how gorgeous the sound is. Like Guy says, the VI PRO interface, for me, is a fast, expressive tool and that's key for work flow. It doesn't help me to be able to run 50% of a library like I'm doing with Hollywood Strings, because my system cannot take it.


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## FireGS (Jan 17, 2011)

First thing I listened to was the Imperial March, as you all know I really attempted to recreate with SampleModling Brass: http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=216706

I was kinda... Meh about it.

Ride of the Gallant Horseman, however, I was floored with. I think with the right post work, these samples really can shine.

Christians Demo really showed me how I think I'd use this library.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 17, 2011)

[quote:cf66f5465c="Guy Bacos @ Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:43 am"]One of my favorite aspects of this library is that you can work extremely fast with VI PRO. 

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## dcoscina (Jan 17, 2011)

I agree. Sometimes this place bums me out because the tenor is way too critical and unrealistic. 

Yes, Brass Dimension isn't perfect. I would dare say from playing with real groups for so long and hearing semi pro groups that REAL brass is often not perfect. East West Hollywood Brass isn't going to be perfect. Audio Bro's brass isn't going to be perfect. Life ain't perfect.


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## Jack Weaver (Jan 17, 2011)

dcoscina sez:



> Aside from some of the smaller developers like Tonehammer or CineSamples, almost every one and thing gets shredded from someone at some time.



Oh I don't know, I'll bet that both CineSamples and Tonehammer feel like equal-opportunity pinatas around here. :D 

Despite the thrashing that developers can receive here they seem to do quite well with sales within our gene pool. We're a greatly productive group for them. 

.


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## Justus (Jan 17, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Mon Jan 17 said:


> Wait until you hear (and see) what they are adding. I did at NAMM and was totally impressed.



Wow, can't wait! Any hint?


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## FireGS (Jan 17, 2011)

Sordinos.


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## José Herring (Jan 17, 2011)

dcoscina @ Mon Jan 17 said:


> I agree. Sometimes this place bums me out because the tenor is way too critical and unrealistic.
> 
> Yes, Brass Dimension isn't perfect. I would dare say from playing with real groups for so long and hearing semi pro groups that REAL brass is often not perfect. East West Hollywood Brass isn't going to be perfect. Audio Bro's brass isn't going to be perfect. Life ain't perfect.



Nobody here is being overly critical. 

For me it's a matter of use. I just find that the sound of it lacks a certain resonance that I'm use to with brass. though the detail and expressiveness is a leap forward. I think it's pretty fair to point out what people think are faults and strengths.

I may end up getting it, even though I'm not floored with the sound of it just because I think it might be extremely useful. Another thing that disturbs me a little bit is that the repetitions sound kind of sloppy. And if this is due to sloppy editing, then there's no way to get in to the samples and fix it.

I have thousands of dollars worth of samples that are just sitting on my harddrive. I think a little critique is a good thing.

Jose


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## Mr. Anxiety (Jan 17, 2011)

Thanks for the remix Guy.

For library auditioning purposes, it helped a lot.

Mr A


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## jamwerks (Jan 17, 2011)

Well, this is a place where it’s OK to be critical imo, as long as it’s constructive. To me Dimension Brass does seem like a step forward, but I’m not sure how much yet. There are so many nuances that all instruments create, that with just a few articulations, we aren’t going to fully replicate the art of a real performance. One thing I like about Sample modeling is that they’ve modeled lots of these nuances that we can add in and shape if we want to go that far. The optimum library for me would be strongly sample based (like VSL) with the possibility to "add the noise" that instruments make (like SM). Think of the sound of a bow change when really digging in, for example. Both Strings and Brass have lot’s of caracteristic "noises", WW maybe a bit less.

DB’s strength seems to be the ensemble sound, but who knows what we might be able to do with the current Brass I, inside an upcoming MIR Pro? Personally, I find the price a bit on the high side, but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t like to have it.


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## dcoscina (Jan 17, 2011)

SM thus far to me sounds very fake and plastic. I know everyone loves Wivi but I've tried it and I'm not at all convinced. to me it sounds very unconvincing. Yes, it can be more expressive from a synth programming standpoint but for sheer realistic timbre, no, they aren't there yet by a long shot. Again, I'm a brass player. I have high standards.

I don't think anyone has gotten all the way there. I use Project SAM brass but the releases give them away as sampled. I like VSL Epic horns but sometimes their attack gradient is too wide and not subtle enough. EWQLSO brass is too stopped although I commend them on the RR8 sample layers. For short articulations they sound pretty good. I haven't used The Trumpet so I'll reserve judgement on that one. Sonic Implants brass I only have the cheapy M-Audio versions with less velocity layers but they sound good but not brassy enough. HAlion Symphonic Orchestra- same "stopped" problem although they can get buzzy if you hit 'em hard enough. 

What's the goal here anyhow? Is it to achieve absolute realism so we can put musicians out of business for good or is it enough to have close-to real libraries to use when money is tight and the producers want mock ups? It's a valid question. I'd probably be more critical of string libraries if I played strings too but I don't- I play brass. So I'm finicky about them yet I hear a lot of good things in the VSL. 

I'm looking forward to East West and Audio Bro's entries into this realm. I might hold off until I can compare all three libraries before committing. I will maintain that VSL is the most attractive because of the player its created for. VI PRO is by far the best interface I have used.


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## Pietro (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm all for the "divisi" idea, and for what I could hear from the videos and the demos - it's flawless in Dimension Brass. They way I imagine it to be.

But something doesn't work regarding articulations and the "sound of performance as a whole". And it's my general opinion on VSL. 

Anyway, I'd love to hear this thing mixed by someone else, and in context with other libraries. It's more than possible, that the result would convince me.

- Piotr


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## Dave Connor (Jan 17, 2011)

There is a certain vulnerability with VSL demos as you are always hearing different reverb solutions (ER's and Tails). So you are not sure what might be affecting the sonic characteristics. If you combine that with just one or two other problems of articulation choice (which just the tempo can make sound odd) or even a layering of samples that's not quite balanced such as staccato attack loud and main body too soft. You can feel like you're listening to an almost strange unnatural presentation. 

As Guy said, people will get more and more of a handle on this new library and everything will come up to the level it's capable of. The jury is still out I would say,


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## mverta (Jan 17, 2011)

For what it's worth, since I use heavily tweaked VSL brass in my templates, I think other than the trombones - which were previously horrific - these samples sound like ass.

The horns are every bit as kazoo as ever, the trumpets with those alien attacks... as somebody suggested earlier, I can _perhaps_ see these being used in a layer or something, but, ugh. These samples seem to have everything but the one thing they need: to sound like their real-world counterparts. 

Kudos to Guy et al. for doing their usual job of making the best they can out of what they've got.



_Mike


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 17, 2011)

thanks for the kudos Mike.

I know Mike, you call it as you see it....

Dave, I appreciate your comments and your constructive way of saying things. I sincerely believe it's a great library, and on my end I am working on mixing issues.


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## Dave Connor (Jan 17, 2011)

Guy, I think an unabashed demo of mainly the brass (or at least heavily featured) would be helpful. By that I mean very straight forward rhythms and harmonic context with triadic formations in all the choirs (along with various unisons.) You know, sort of in your face John Williams like even his NBC thematic stuff. 

If the early reflections are correct than you shouldn't need a whole lot of tail so things aren't washed out. I think most people want a certain clarity in demos.

Good luck! I know it's not easy but I remember after you worked with the VSL choir for a bit it really came to life.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 17, 2011)

Thanks Dave, I really appreciate this!


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## mverta (Jan 17, 2011)

Guy Bacos @ Mon Jan 17 said:


> I know Mike, you call it as you see it....



Yes, I definitely don't pull my punches. But when it comes to samples, I feel it's pass/fail - it either has the x-factor of real or it doesn't, and all the articulation bullcrap in the world can't save it. I hear the sound of real instruments, recorded from all different size groups in all types of rooms, everyday, and I consistently hear sounds from the VSL stuff which I don't recognize as the intended instrument. That said, with enough layering and tweaking and changing and editing and experimenting and massaging, you can get a good sound from their stuff - VSL is my primary library source.

But to come out with these raw samples sounding like that, to me, is not advancing things. Just my take on it. I'm 1000% sure my opinion will in no way alter anything VSL does with regard to their products, in any way, ever. And why would they? I've given them my money anyway!


_Mike


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## dcoscina (Jan 17, 2011)

Mike given your experience with real orchestras, would library gets the closest?


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 17, 2011)

I'd be careful with that question Dave. A lot of the libraries out there like to focus on one aspect of the sound and make that their main target. If you're going to write with that one type of sound all your life it's fine, but VSL is not the kind of company who will sell you the icing on the cake without the cake, it is important to see the depth of the sample and tool and not just the fireworks.


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## dcoscina (Jan 17, 2011)

Oh dont worry Guy. I have tons of VSL and mostly use their samples for 90% of my music because I find them the most expressive. I'm just curious what Mike thinks is more realistic. 

I know a guy at MOTUnation that got the Brass Dimension already and loves it.


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## mverta (Jan 17, 2011)

It's a loaded question, because none of the libraries truly do it right nor ever will. 

However, as I said, I use mostly VSL, but absolutely not stock VSL. For example, my trumpets are their 6 Trumpets, layered with their 3 trumpet _from the original symphonic cube_. The newer 3 trumpets (I bought them figuring they'd be VE Pro versions of the ones I had) are different, and worse, actually, in the attack qualities. The original 3 trumpets had a really sweet attack in the p-mp which is now missing. All that is layered with The Trumpet. And then each layer is heavily EQ'd. None of which, truly, should be necessary.

I think Dimension Brass solves a problem I've never heard of anyone having. "Boy, I wish I could control the level of each player within a section." ? What? How about it just sounds like a real section, for once, and can auto-divisi. Hell, nearest-neighbor auto-divisi would be correct, orchestrationally 8 out of 10 times. Now _there's_ something I'd like to hear. But again, the actual tonal qualities of the instruments do not sound real. Horns are the worst offenders. The EQ profile for the various dynamic ranges is astoundingly different. As it is, with the 8 horns, (which I layer with the 4 horns, heavily tweaked), I have to separate the legato horns onto their own channel apart from the sustain horns, because the legato's EQ is totally different - much heavier in the low-mids and bass, which if you set the EQ for that, thins out the rest of the ensemble stuff. Just retarded nonsense like that, is what drives me nuts, apart from the fact that I swear the ff and fff horns sound like giant kazoos. You know, _who_ you have playing the instrument during the sampling isn't exactly a minor point. I shudder at the idea that some human out there makes that tone on an otherwise beautiful instrument.

So, death to VSL. Long live VSL. 


_Mike


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## NYC Composer (Jan 18, 2011)

mverta @ Tue Jan 18 said:


> It's a loaded question, because none of the libraries truly do it right nor ever will.
> 
> However, as I said, I use mostly VSL, but absolutely not stock VSL. For example, my trumpets are their 6 Trumpets, layered with their 3 trumpet _from the original symphonic cube_. The newer 3 trumpets (I bought them figuring they'd be VE Pro versions of the ones I had) are different, and worse, actually, in the attack qualities. The original 3 trumpets had a really sweet attack in the p-mp which is now missing. All that is layered with The Trumpet. And then each layer is heavily EQ'd. None of which, truly, should be necessary.
> 
> ...



When you're done with the tweaking and layering and reverberating and eq-ing and panning and so forth, are you happy? Does it sound great, sound like a big Hollywoo d(or whatever you're going for) orchestra to you? Or are you left saying 'jeez, if only I had blah blah blah...."


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## Christian Marcussen (Jan 18, 2011)

> I have to separate the legato horns onto their own channel apart from the sustain horns, because the legato's EQ is totally different - much heavier in the low-mids and bass, which if you set the EQ for that, thins out the rest of the ensemble stuff. Just retarded nonsense like that, is what drives me nuts



This one drives me nuts as wel... arg!


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## NYC Composer (Jan 18, 2011)

It seems to me that vast sampling sessions/editing sessions must be a lot like Chinese water torture, except much, much longer. I don't know how anyone could possibly be anal enough to achieve perfection, much less a high level of consistency in these things-especially on successive days.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 18, 2011)

Dave, I hope you'll follow your instinct. Because some things needs some minor adjustments in programming and/or mixing, it does NOT mean it sounds like "ass". Probably had too much wine... Trust me, I have an ear as well, and they don't. I've been spending the last 6 years having the same battles with many people here, I think my demos speak for themselves, especially given a chance to get comfortable with the sample. When VSL recorded these instrument they used players every bit as good as you'd see in any sessions, the samples are real, I mean they didn't record a tuba from a high school band or a harpsichord, and said, "let's try to pass this off as a trumpet". I think there's a serious lack of respect by some, but what can you do.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 18, 2011)

Folks as knowledgeable as Mike is about an orchestra....as good as Guy is at manipulating VSL samples.....
at the end of the day this is highly subjective. 

Do YOU like the sound? Do your CLIENTS like what you are giving them? Will this library help you deliver a sound that YOU like and your CLIENTS like.

There is way too much energy spent by too many of you worrying about the subjective opinions of a bunch of guys on a forum.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 18, 2011)

Jay, I know nobody gives a shit of my opinion or Mikes, it is ultimately the sound of the demo that will count, as it should.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 18, 2011)

Guy Bacos @ Tue Jan 18 said:


> Jay, I know nobody gives a [email protected]#t of my opinion or Mikes, it is ultimately the sound of the demo that will count, as it should.



That is not what I am saying, Guy. I GREATLY respect your opinion and Mike's as you both have earned that, but at the end of the day I care more about my own and my clients opinions.

When I sit down to play and work with a library's instruments, I know pretty quickly if it is moving me emotionally and if I like the sound. How popular it is or is not with guys on a forum just does not matter to me and IMHO while worth considering, should not be much of a factor to anyone else.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 18, 2011)

I really meant don't give a shit in influencing their decision, I should made the nuance.


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## mverta (Jan 18, 2011)

Larry - my answer is, "No, I'm not happy, but I'm not as disappointed as I was."

And Jay is right on all counts, which is why I started my original post with, "For what it's worth..." Not much, in the end. Except to those, I guess, who sort of enjoy the pursuit. I constantly draw parallels to the world of vfx, where we're always trying to achieve photorealism. There, we render and image, and have to admit: looks fake. OR... looks real. Lots of beautiful images look fake. But that's not the goal. So we have to keep really honest about whether it looks real or not, and that brutality is why we've come so far. 

So I think it's the same thing. When the top trumpet player in the world hears a sample and says, "That's real." Then you've done it, and not before. But I have plenty of clients who think the virtual "ass" sounds just great. And so long as they never hear the live version, will be happy. 


Oh, and Guy: A customer who has bought nearly every major VSL product since they opened their doors calling it ass, when I think it's ass, isn't disrespectful. It's honest. That's not hyperbole. If I didn't use the product; if I didn't have an interest in using the product, or any intent of rewarding their pursuit or development, that would ò 3   ÆC¥ 3   ÆD 3   Æbû 3   Æc 3   Æ~ 3   Æ~Û 3   Æ~ì 3   Æ…n 3   Æ‰' 3   Æ‰ù 3   ÆÖ 3   Æ# 3   Æ˜< 3   Æžì 3


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 18, 2011)

Anybody could have their opinion, I'm not annoyed about that, but since I have the product in hand and Mike doesn't, I know it's a question of fine tuning certain aspects, regardless of the current demos. But jumping to conclusions so quickly and trashing it, I'm sorry I find that pretentious, especially the way it was expressed.


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## mverta (Jan 18, 2011)

Guy Bacos @ Tue Jan 18 said:


> ...Mike keeps listening to himself, since he's the only one in the world who's ever heard live trumpets.... is quite pretentious...



Guy, I assume you're insulting me because you feel insulted. I'm going to take the high road here and reiterate that just because I have a different opinion of the sound than you do, doesn't mean you're tone deaf. It means I have a different opinion than you do. That's all. We're different people. Clearly.

I get that you're an employee of VSL and everything, but for God's sake, man. You don't have to go personal with it. 



_Mike


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## mverta (Jan 18, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Tue Jan 18 said:


> Mike where I perhaps differ from you and certainly from many here is that I do not WANT the samples and V.I.s to sound just as good as the real thing.



Well, yeah, definitely, Jay. I think the accepted goal of these products is to sound completely real. But I agree with you, that's not going to happen. Even when you get the sound, you can't get the performance. However, I welcome and enjoy the pursuit, and believe we can get tons closer, yet. If I thought it was over, I wouldn't bother commenting. That'd be like beating a special needs kid.


_Mike


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## mverta (Jan 18, 2011)

Not sure what the point of doing audio demos is if you can't draw any conclusions from them.

I have never heard one of my VSL samples not sound the way they do in the demos, which is why I have to tweak them so heavily to make them work. I have no problem with tweaking things to make them sound right, but that also means they didn't sound right to start with. Again, if in the hands of someone who has the product, knows the product, and is good at making demos, the product still sounds poor to me in demos, I'd be a fool to expect something completely different when I get it. And, true to form, that's never happened. Always got exactly what I anticipated.


With my long history with VSL, though, I know eventualò 4   ¿¤1 4   ¿¤m 4   ¿¦Ç 4   ¿§Z 4   ¿©* 4   ¿©T 4   ¿®¥ 4   ¿®â 4   ¿º| 4   ¿ºÇ 4   ¿¼é 4   ¿½€ 4   ¿Ï@ 4   ¿ÏŒ 4   ¿×> 4   ¿× 4   ¿ØÀ 4   ¿Ù; 4   ¿Û( 4   ¿ÛU 4   ¿åø 4   ¿ç¤ 4   ¿ê 4   ¿ë 4   ¿ëw 4   ¿í 4   ¿î­ 4   ¿ï/ 4   ¿ùU 4   ¿ùç 4   ¿ÿ× 4   À 4   À˜ 4   ÀÒ 4   À	 4   À	G 4   À 4   À  4   À9 4   ÀÁ 4   Àõ 4   Àp 4   À_ 4   Àˆ 4   Àr 4   À 4   À%ª 4   À&i 4   À= 4   À>1 4   ÀA 4   ÀAm 4   ÀFä 4   ÀGx 4   ÀP§ 4   ÀQ 4   ÀRÿ 4   ÀS# 4   ÀW- 4   ÀWH 4   ÀXè 4   ÀY 4   ÀY  4   ÀYÄ 4   À[4 4   À[ß 4   À\Q 4   À]$ 4   À_Y 4


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## mverta (Jan 18, 2011)

dcoscina @ Tue Jan 18 said:


> Oddly enough, I find LASS marries very well with VSL.



That's just what I'm doing, too...

_Mike


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## NYC Composer (Jan 18, 2011)

I think the point I made in my question to Mike and that Jay reiterated is the most important-how you FEEL the sound is in your compositions, and what the reactions you get, since nothing exists in a bubble.

As to the product, Guy's work sounds very well done to me, and I still hear what Mike is talking about. To me, there's a static quality there.

Btw, I've tried layering The Trumpet with a bunch of stuff, and boy, it takes a lot of work for me to integrate. For jazz-ish solo stuff, man, it's just magic, but orchestrally, hard sailing.


----------



## NYC Composer (Jan 18, 2011)

germancomponist @ Tue Jan 18 said:


> NYC Composer @ Tue Jan 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Btw, I've tried layering The Trumpet with a bunch of stuff, and boy, it takes a lot of work for me to integrate. For jazz-ish solo stuff, man, it's just magic, but orchestrally, hard sailing.
> ...



Thanks Gunther, yeah, it's the first thing I do. When you get to the top end of the expression curve, it's pretty blatty otherwise. A nice fuzzy reverb seems to help as well, but have you tried to combine three SM trpts? I read through the thread about it, but still find it difficult to create a section. Anyway, back on topic.


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## germancomponist (Jan 18, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Tue Jan 18 said:


> Thanks Gunther, yeah, it's the first thing I do. When you get to the top end of the expression curve, it's pretty blatty otherwise. A nice fuzzy reverb seems to help as well, ...



I read elsewhere that Samplemodeling will do another trumpet patch/instrument, optimized exactly for this. Have you experimented with a plate reverb? Awesome results!

Ok, back on topic.

I see Guy`s and Mike`s points.


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## mverta (Jan 18, 2011)

synergy543 @ Tue Jan 18 said:


> Nobody would go onto CGSociety or the MODO forum and say John Knoll's MODO work looks like ass - even if they were intoxicated from the smell of baby diapers.




That's because Knoll's work isn't ass. I trust you can see the distinction. However, if one did feel that way, and I was Knoll, I'd sure as hell want to hear it, and hear it straight. Big boys know how to filter results. I love honest, unwatered-down criticism. I don't want to hear you didn't care for a piece of mine that you actually felt sucked. Those are different reactions. Telling a cook you didn't quite care for his meal means something different than telling him you thought it was dog food. A good chef knows exactly how much weight to give your opinion, and what to do with it. And a _truly_ good chef isn't that easily rattled. 


In either case, I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't feel the need to seek permission to state my opinions, nor cares whether people want them watered down so they can handle them or not. The point at which I'm both a loyal customer and user of VSL, while not a sycophant; while not afraid to tell it truly how I see it, makes me the ideal human, naturally.  

I didn't say it was "ass" to start a flame war. I think a lot of it sounds like ass, like a lot of the other VSL stuff I use every day, but use anyway, and tweak. Who gives a crap if you don't agree with me? This is a place to share your opinions. That's mine.


And Christ, for all I know I'll end up buying the goddamn thing.





_Mike


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## Ashermusic (Jan 18, 2011)

Mike, have you ever thought of running for an elective office?


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## José Herring (Jan 18, 2011)

Are we talking about Guy's composition or the quality of the library?

For me they're two entirely different things. For some reason I'm getting the feeling that because Mike criticized VSL that somehow some of you are taking it personally.

C'mon people! These samples for crying out loud. Sure, it takes work to do a sample library right, but it's an instrument. You don't see people getting upset or taking it personally when a sax players compares the sound of a Selmer Mark VII to the Mark V.

Somebody says that xyz library to his ears sounds like Ass. So what? I'm a clarinet player and the sound of certain clarinets sound like ass to me. But that's no comment on the player. It's just the instrument.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 18, 2011)

It's not just about trashing something or saying it sounds like ass. It's it was said with in such an arrogant tone.


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## mverta (Jan 18, 2011)

Jay - _Elective_ office? Nah. Dictator, though. I'd be good at dictator.

Jose - Quality of the library, of course. I finished my post with kudos to Guy for doing a good job on the demo. 

Which is fairly arrogant.




_Mike


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## Mike Connelly (Jan 18, 2011)

If the problem is just "arrogant tone" can't that be discussed via PM or in a new thread in the OT section? And there are mods here, if someone really gets out of line they can step in.

Yet again it seems like another thread is derailed by arguments about whether people here are polite enough. Can we please get back onto the topic of the demos and the library?


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 18, 2011)

Well I said what I didn't like, so I'm through talking about this.


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## synergy543 (Jan 18, 2011)

Jose, you and Mike are surely free to express yourselves however you'd like, and target whatever or whomever you'd like. Its a free country - "You Betcha!" 

I was just expressing my opinion that I thought Mike was really on to something before when he mentioned how the graphics community has a more supportive environment than what we're seeing here. And its really true. Go over to just about any graphic forum on CGSociety, MODO, LW, Vue, ZBrush, etc. and you'll find a strikingly different level of discourse.

Saying you don't like the sound of something, or the tone of the brass doesn't sound right I suppose is someone else's way of saying its sounds like ass. So in the free-speech respect, I suppose its fair game.

It just seemed like a bit of hypocrisy, and I was just calling it like I saw it.

@Mike - why would you buy a piece of ass?


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## mverta (Jan 18, 2011)

Okay, I'm an arrogant hypocrite flaming thread troll. You were saying about discourse?

And the answer to why I'd buy a piece of ass is sometimes a guy's gotta pay for it, so what? Girlfriend dumped him, it's Saturday night, you know....




Oh! Wait you mean "piece of ass" as in "sample library that I don't like the sound of?" Different thing altogether. And the answer is: because I can make it work, with enough tweaking, usually. But the Frankensteined hybrids of layers of library samples with wild EQ's or whatever we make is only necessary because the sound of any one library doesn't suit us, or sound believable to our ears. So it shouldn't really be a shock when a new library comes out that doesn't instantly render all that unnecessary.


_Mike


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## synergy543 (Jan 18, 2011)

Lets see....yeah, we were talking about sample libs...right.


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## Ed (Jan 18, 2011)

Dontcha love how so many threads end up in bickering lol


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## synergy543 (Jan 18, 2011)

Ed @ Tue Jan 18 said:


> Dontcha love how so many threads end up in bickering lol


That was Mike's point and my point. We're over it.

That's SO yesterday dude!


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## NYC Composer (Jan 18, 2011)

germancomponist @ Tue Jan 18 said:


> NYC Composer @ Tue Jan 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks Gunther, yeah, it's the first thing I do. When you get to the top end of the expression curve, it's pretty blatty otherwise. A nice fuzzy reverb seems to help as well, ...
> ...



Interesting.Yes, I often use a plate (UAD Plate 140 is my fave).


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## dcoscina (Jan 19, 2011)

I know I'm gonna get it for this next statement but I have to say it: instead of complaining about all this stuff, why not just write music with samples you guys like? If you think this VSL Brass sounds like "ass" (I'm sorry, I've lost respect for some folks here because of how they articulate themselves), why not ask Guy for the MIDI file and do better with what ever else is out there at the moment?

Also, and here's the real controversial line: I'm not a career composer. I make most of my money at a day job that I'm currently at so I have some time to check in and comment from time to time. Some of you guys who purport to be professionals seem to spend an awful lot of time on this forum complaining about things. Not sure how much music you're getting written...

let the crucification begin!


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## Ed (Jan 19, 2011)

dcoscina @ Wed Jan 19 said:


> Not sure how much music you're getting written...
> 
> let the crucification begin!



In terms of productivity though Mike Verta's probably up there. So I guess you're not talking about him


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## José Herring (Jan 19, 2011)

dcoscina @ Wed Jan 19 said:


> I know I'm gonna get it for this next statement but I have to say it: instead of complaining about all this stuff, why not just write music with samples you guys like? If you think this VSL Brass sounds like "ass" (I'm sorry, I've lost respect for some folks here because of how they articulate themselves), why not ask Guy for the MIDI file and do better with what ever else is out there at the moment?
> 
> Also, and here's the real controversial line: I'm not a career composer. I make most of my money at a day job that I'm currently at so I have some time to check in and comment from time to time. Some of you guys who purport to be professionals seem to spend an awful lot of time on this forum complaining about things. Not sure how much music you're getting written...
> 
> let the crucification begin!



Nobody is complaining about anything. All I've seen on this thread is people giving their opinion on something and others get all butt hurt when that opinion doesn't agree with theirs. I've actually gotten a lot of useful info on how to use VSL from this thread.

Also, though we get busy there are times that things aren't so busy. After completing 120 minutes of music for a feature all I've got now is a couple of 2 minute library cues. These are the times to catch up on all the latest libraries. Criticize them, praise them, love 'em, hate 'em, love certain parts, hate other parts. I hardly see the need to get upset.

Also to clear up the "ass" quote that's got certain people's panties in a bunch. Mike was saying that many times his clients are happy with the "virtual ass" because they don't have the real thing to compare it too. I find that statement is about as true as any statement I've ever heard uttered on this forum. Kind of sums up my experiences and one of the things that's made it so hard to convince producers to actual put the money up for live players. I've been banging my head against this one for a few years now.

I really don't understand the need to get so personal on this. Nobody has said anything that's at all bad.

Jose


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 19, 2011)

I can't speak for everyone of course, Jose, but what strikes me as a little tedious on this thread is the use of hyperbole. To use a phrase like "ass" to describe something of this calibre seems pretty petulant. Criticisms, sure, but it just seems silly to me to be that OTT about it. Sure, no crimes committed, and I don't take offence... it's just a bit boring imho.


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## José Herring (Jan 19, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Wed Jan 19 said:


> I can't speak for everyone of course, Jose, but what strikes me as a little tedious on this thread is the use of hyperbole. To use a phrase like "ass" to describe something of this calibre seems pretty petulant. Criticisms, sure, but it just seems silly to me to be that OTT about it. Sure, no crimes committed, and I don't take offence... it's just a bit boring imho.



I bored this week doing an endless amount of promotion for the next gig so I have nothing better to do than get involved in pointless discussions. Next, I think I'll tune into a soap opera or something. :lol:


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## NYC Composer (Jan 19, 2011)

I was curious that Guy took this personally. I agree Mike could have been a bit more politic, but the " sounds like ass" comment was about the sample content, not Guy's work, and Mike made a point of clarifying that.


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## mverta (Jan 19, 2011)

I DO think it sounds like ass. Not "not so great," not, "meh," but like, "Jesus Christ that's ass." That's not hyperbole, that's how I feel. And Guy's newest version... I'm reading these glowing praises of the samples and I feel like Will Ferrell in Zoolander going, "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!" It's so weird.

I don't know what it is about this latest release but I'm getting the impression people don't know what these instruments are supposed to sound like or something. It's almost surreal.

Anyway, it's just one dude's opinion. I don't know why you guys are so worked up. I've said I'm a vsl user, and I get good results in the end. Guy went personal with the whole thing, but that's his problem. He's a VSL employee.

I call it like I see it. And at least you know where you stand with me. There are enough phony, euphemistic, two-faced cowards out there as it is. Calm down. Relax. It's all good.


_Mike


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 19, 2011)

mverta @ Wed Jan 19 said:


> I don't know what it is about this latest release but I'm getting the impression people don't know what these instruments are supposed to sound like or something. It's almost surreal.
> 
> _Mike



Some people will agree with you but for many other people that's kind of insulting, (to question their knowledge) no?

Anyway, relax Mike, it will certainly get the job done, and I love it, and if you don't like it, then just don't buy it. 

BTW, these brasses are having one of the best sales starts in VSL's history. So Vi control is defenitely not representing common opinions.


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## mverta (Jan 19, 2011)

No it isn't insulting; it's just another opinion. If you're secure in yours, you ain't gonna be rattled by little ol' me.


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## JohnG (Jan 19, 2011)

Actually, to insinuate that those who think the library is nice are either ignorant or cowards IS insulting, Mike. It is possible to be candid without being rude.


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## givemenoughrope (Jan 19, 2011)

Mike,

I really liked that video you put up. I learned a lot and it gave me much to think about in regards to performing vs. inputting notes/mousing it.

Do you have any tracks that demonstrate how much better your tweaked vsl brass sound? Maybe you could give some insight on how it's been tweaked and how to you perform it/record the midi. 

I'd also be interested to know how you or others deal with switching from ensemble patches (single note parts) to divisi parts (maybe with solo patches?). 

thanks


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## José Herring (Jan 19, 2011)

mverta @ Wed Jan 19 said:


> I DO think it sounds like ass. Not "not so great," not, "meh," but like, "Jesus Christ that's ass." That's not hyperbole, that's how I feel. And Guy's newest version... I'm reading these glowing praises of the samples and I feel like Will Ferrell in Zoolander going, "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!" It's so weird.
> 
> I don't know what it is about this latest release but I'm getting the impression people don't know what these instruments are supposed to sound like or something. It's almost surreal.
> 
> ...



I do know what real brass sound like, and quite frankly there aren't any samples that sound like the real thing. Sooooooo, you have to evaluate it from that perspective. Can it do a reasonable job of fooling somebody that doesn't know any better. I'm not 100% sold, but I think that as long as you aren't writing like you have the real thing, then dimension brass might do a good job. 

A noted composer once told me that if your final product is samples you write one way, if it's live you write another way. What I hate hate hate and I'll get a lot of flack for this from many, many people here, what I hate is when people write like they have the real thing when they only have samples. Not that I've ever made that mistake. :mrgreen:


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## jamwerks (Jan 19, 2011)

So, what do real brass sound like? People who work with real brass, know that there are many many different sounds you can get out of them. Mic placement, distance, mic type, stereo-mono, preamps, room, the player, how he plays, etc. all come into play. To say nothing about then how one interfaces the triggering of those sounds into a sampler.

So insinuations that there is "a" brass sound, and it’s hit or miss, sounds a bit like "ass".

On the other hand, to say that, "that’s not the sound I’m looking for", would be "taking the high road".



edited: spelling, clarification


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## José Herring (Jan 19, 2011)

jamwerks @ Wed Jan 19 said:


> So, what do real brass sound like? People who work will real brass, know that there are many many different sounds you can get out of them. Mic placement, distance, mic type, stereo-mono, preamps, room, the player, how he plays, etc. all come into play. To say nothing about then how one interfaces the triggering of those sounds into a sampler.
> 
> So insinuations that there is "a" brass sound, and it’s hit or miss, sounds like "ass" to me.
> 
> On the other hand, to say that, "that’s not the sound I’m looking for", would be "taking the high road".



That's all very true. For me I look for phrasing, articulations that would go along with things that brass would be called to do. Fanfares, double tonging, triple tonging, brass choirs. I listen to see if the library is performing those functions in a manner that would be reminiscent of a real person. Call it musicality. Do the connections sound natural, is the articulation from note to note consistent within a phrase, is the sustain expressive or just hanging there with no place to go. That's what I look for. 

Jose


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## ChrisAxia (Jan 20, 2011)

jamwerks @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> So, what do real brass sound like? People who work with real brass, know that there are many many different sounds you can get out of them. Mic placement, distance, mic type, stereo-mono, preamps, room, the player, how he plays, etc. all come into play. To say nothing about then how one interfaces the triggering of those sounds into a sampler.
> 
> So insinuations that there is "a" brass sound, and it’s hit or miss, sounds a bit like "ass".
> 
> On the other hand, to say that, "that’s not the sound I’m looking for", would be "taking the high road".



+1. I bought this library as I have some serious 'brass' work to do on a new series, and I'm more than happy with the results using the Auto Divisi Trumpets and Horns on my first cue. It is very close to "the sound I am looking for"!

~Chris


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## José Herring (Jan 20, 2011)

ChrisAxia @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> jamwerks @ Thu Jan 20 said:
> 
> 
> > So, what do real brass sound like? People who work with real brass, know that there are many many different sounds you can get out of them. Mic placement, distance, mic type, stereo-mono, preamps, room, the player, how he plays, etc. all come into play. To say nothing about then how one interfaces the triggering of those sounds into a sampler.
> ...



Would love to hear what you've done with it, if you can post something.

best,

Jose


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## jamwerks (Jan 20, 2011)

I’ve decided not to buy. A bit to expensive for what you get imo. There are few articulations, no mutes, etc (all on 1 DVD!), so it would get me only 1/3 the way there. In the end it would just slow down my workflow at the expensive of a little better cohesion.

And absolutely no incentives to loyal Vienna spenders (cough, Spectrasonics, cough)! If it sells great, all the better for VSL.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 20, 2011)

I think much of the crossed lines come from this:



mverta said:


> I think the accepted goal of these products is to sound completely real.





> When the top trumpet player in the world hears a sample and says, "That's real." Then you've done it, and not before. But I have plenty of clients who think the virtual "ass" sounds just great. And so long as they never hear the live version, will be happy.



This is what I think: Additionally to the acoustical circumstances (silent stage vs. scoring stage) there is another big factor that messes up samples big time, and that is the ADSR feature of sample players. This is especially true for VSL imo.

The other thing I notice in sample world is that whenever sample makers and users learn how to emulate a new detail of live performance they tend to overuse it by a big margin. This is valid for stage noise, instrument noise at legato transitions, detuning in the new VSL player. 

In a way the better the sample material gets, the more obvious it is that it is not a live performance. Of course not. Therefore the most prosperous attitude would be to simply accept that they are not the same. Use samples for what they are and occasionally hire some players, that way you can be happy all the year.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 20, 2011)

"Happiness" would be the death of the sample library development biz.

I'm not happy.

On we go.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 20, 2011)

These debates often seem to end up a giant virtual pissing contest (if you'll excuse the phrase) with everyone claiming only they know how real instruments sound. Yawn. Guy Bacos' work is outstanding using VSL. Colin's Spitfire demo is off the charts. TJ makes a VL Tone sound like the LSO according to legend, let alone with a library such as Hollywood Strings. I often think there's too much tribalism. Skill is what brings the samples alive in each case. In the interests of science, I'm sure I could turn in a perfectly crap demo of Spitfire's private libraries if anyone wants to let me loose on the library!

Of course we all have sounds we PREFER to work with (or find easier to make sound good), which is a far more constructive way to view things imho.

Again, I think that we rapidly lose perspective as a community. I know it's something of a tired point, but you could play those VSL cues to a random selection of people on the street, and the vast majority would have simply have no clue that they were samples. Of course the nuances and details are important and it's our job to worry about them - we hope to aim higher than the random person on the street - but again it's the hyperbole that rankles, because whether intended or not that is exactly what it is. I guess the difference is in saying that something is definitively bad versus not liking a particular tone - it crosses the line from subjectivity to objectivity. Pointing the finger and saying "that's ass" sounds awfully like an objective comment, not a subjective one which would be "I don't like the sound of it". It's just silly - (IMHO!)


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## ChrisAxia (Jan 20, 2011)

josejherring @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> ChrisAxia @ Thu Jan 20 said:
> 
> 
> > jamwerks @ Thu Jan 20 said:
> ...



Sorry Jose. Can't post this work just yet. This cue is now 'owned' by the BBC (and it's very early days) unlike the HS demos I posted last year.

~C


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## mverta (Jan 20, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> Pointing the finger and saying "that's ass" sounds awfully like an objective comment, not a subjective one which would be "I don't like the sound of it". It's just silly - (IMHO!)



Oh yeah? Really? And who exactly am I speaking for when I say "that's ass..." You? The Shah of Iran? We don't speak for anybody but ourselves, far as I know, unless we're colossally deluded. Hell, I don't even use a handle on the internet. It's just me.

So if _you've_ decided that I'm not speaking for myself, but for others, and then decided that "rankles" you, that's not my problem, but it sure as hell doesn't make my opinion an attempt at objectivity. 

And I'll tell you something else: "IMHO" is, IMHO, a pile of crap. Anytime you post on the Internet, you're posting on a public forum something you apparently think the _entire freakin' world should take the time to read_, and that ain't humble. I, personally, don't want to hear your humble opinion, anyway; I want to hear your 16 thousand-pound battering-ram-of-undeniable-insight opinion, lobbed into the thread like a nuclear anti-personnel fragmentation grenade. But that's me. You know, IMHO. Not trying to speak for anyone else here. Just so we're clear. Oh, and:  

Admittedly, if you're one of those people who identifies themselves as "easily offended or insulted," we're not going to make it as friends. By the same token, there is a very simple skill which can protect the fragile from even the most vicious, corrosive, and insulting opinions - like mine:


*Dude on the Internet:* John Williams is a hack. He's a boil on the ass of music, and everything he's ever written was mass-market pandering which should be burned. Also, I hope he gets cancer and dies in a firey car crash on the way to chemo. Plus he's a pedophile. And Mike, since you're nothing but a Williams wannabe, you're obviously lower than whale shit.

*Me:* Whatever.

*Same Dude on the Internet:* The opening few minutes to Daphnis and Chloe is more epic than all the so-called "epic" I hear nowadays, combined.

*Me:* Agreed.



See? That's it. Why is this so hard? You agree, you agree; you don't agree, you don't have to get all worked up over one dude's (humble) opinion. Since this seems like a galactically simple social skill to me, you'll forgive me if I don't temper my language with a lot of euphemistic bullshit.


Now, @givemeenoughrope. Tons of examples of my work in my thread. Though I think Alex Temple's brass is better.

I said it before and I'll say it again: Use Dynamic Brass if you dig it. Go forth and conquer the universe with it. Maybe I'll buy it; who knows? 


Love,

_Mike


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 20, 2011)

I'm not worked up, I'm just bored of this tone within an otherwise interesting discussion. When I read stuff that's apparently dogmatic and OTT with regard to nuances... I just switch off, I can't help wondering if the poster is puffing themselves up to impress.

Having opinion is great, I've used the specific example of the difference between subjecitve and objective language - you don't go for it, fine, but know that the effect on at least SOME other people is just to switch off from useful insights you may have.

Ach, maybe it IS just me. I just listen to those who don't equate shouting, accusing and being dogmatic with sincerity or value. Clearly I've devoted too much effort when quite right, I should just ignore it and it IS very boring - so, moving on...


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## mverta (Jan 20, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> When I read stuff that's apparently dogmatic and OTT with regard to nuances... I just switch off... the effect on at least SOME other people is just to switch off... I should just ignore...



Amen! Amen! Good Lord Sweet Jesus on the Mountain, Amen! You got it! Victory! I'm so happy right now! I'm, like, happy!  You have an impenetrable Shield of Perspective with which to fend off, permanently, trolls like me. Look at that! 


Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going back to reading Sun-Tzu's chapter on what to do when hopelessly outnumbered on contested terrain. 


_Mike


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 20, 2011)

You may be outnumbered, Mike, but you sure make a lot of noise. I think some of us got your point many posts ago.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 20, 2011)

Mike, about 6 months ago, a friend of mine, who is probably the most famous harpist in Hollywood involved in soundtracks, had heard a piece of mine written several years ago, for cello and orchestra, there was question a concert cellist would play the solo part, a few weeks later when the harpist heard the piece again, she said: "Such a wonderful interpretation, so expressive, that Sara play's so well! Did she feel stupid when I told her this wasn't Sara playing but you were listening to my midi track. Ok, personally, I could hear the difference between a real cello and my midi tracks, of course the real is much superior any day. But what does that say for the harpist? You tell me.


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## mverta (Jan 20, 2011)

It says you could hear the difference and she couldn't.


_Mike


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 20, 2011)

mverta @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> It says you could hear the difference and she couldn't.
> 
> 
> _Mike



No Mike, in the context of THIS thread it means more than that. It means for her it was close enough to the cello sound and she appreciated the expression and sound from it. But I see you don't seem to make any connection here, so forget it.


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## mverta (Jan 20, 2011)

Well I guess it means both. Who cares? What's your point? Despite Ned's insistence to the contrary, it appears my point isn't getting across. I don't speak for anybody but myself. If I hate the sound of something, that means I hate it. Not that you hate it, or that "it" is crap. Merely that I think so. SO. FREAKIN'. WHAT?


_Mike


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 20, 2011)

There's no point I just like to talk for nothing. Have a good day.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 20, 2011)

And you could have saved us from this coda, Guy, and finished this via PM.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 20, 2011)

Actually I'd rather finish exiting this forum for good.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 20, 2011)

Guy, respectfully, I'm going to give you some friendly advice: don't let people get under your skin. Focus on the positive, not the negative. If you don't respond to certain criticisms, they will go away, because they are not being fuelled.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 20, 2011)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> Guy, respectfully, I'm going to give you some friendly advice: don't let people get under your skin. Focus on the positive, not the negative. If you don't respond to certain criticisms, they will go away, because they are not being fuelled.



I know you're right Ned, It's not always easy for me I guess, but you're right.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 20, 2011)

C'est peut-être le temps d'un café? Pour moi, oui.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 20, 2011)

Ça va être un cappuccino pour moi.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 20, 2011)

mverta @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> Well I guess it means both. Who cares? What's your point? Despite Ned's insistence to the contrary, it appears my point isn't getting across. I don't speak for anybody but myself. If I hate the sound of something, that means I hate it. Not that you hate it, or that "it" is crap. Merely that I think so. SO. FREAKIN'. WHAT?
> 
> 
> _Mike



Mike, I like you. You are passionate about the craft of film music. You are smart. And you are probably in my estimation, if not the most talented guy here, in the top three.

But every time we post something we have two choices:
1. Make a negative comment on a library or piece in a way that is likely to offend.
2. Make a negative comment on a library or piece in a way that is not likely to offend.

You seem to think #1 is more admirable, more courageous. It is not. (Piet used to make this mistake too.) 

Making comments in a way that avoids inflammatory rhetoric is just smart. Saying "I don't like the sound" is less inflammatory than "it sounds like ass" and yet makes the point equally well.

Politeness is not cowardice, it is simply good behavior. 

OTOH, Guy, if you are going to be the high profile mockup artist you apparently want to be, you need to develop a thicker skin.

IMHO.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 20, 2011)

Jay, while you make good points, I think you're just adding more fuel by repeating what I said, but with less tact. I hope the boys don't pick up your stick.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 20, 2011)

PS: Stay on subject, please.


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## Peter Alexander (Jan 20, 2011)

@ Mike - IMHO - keep writing and being yourself. I enjoy your refreshing candor.

Peter


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 20, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> OTOH, Guy, if you are going to be the high profile mockup artist you apparently want to be, you need to develop a thicker skin.
> 
> IMHO.



You're right too. 

I'd like to start my first lesson next Monday.  Actually, I'll start with Jay Bacal, he is a Zen Master.


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## Mike Connelly (Jan 20, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> 2. Make a negative comment on a library or piece in a way that is not likely to offend.



While I agree with the sentiment, I have to wonder if those offended by "I think X sounds like ass" would be just as offended by "I think X sounds terrible". Some people here just seem to be offended by any statement that is negative regardless of how tactfully it's worded.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 20, 2011)

Mike Connelly @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> Ashermusic @ Thu Jan 20 said:
> 
> 
> > 2. Make a negative comment on a library or piece in a way that is not likely to offend.
> ...



Mike, if you are going to highly exaggerate things it doesn't look very credible.

Lex, Jose (at first), Mathazzar and Pietro, didn't like it. Did you see make a fit about what they said? No, I respected their opinions even though they saw it differently than I did. It was worded respectfully.

Personally, I have more respect for the better communicator, (since everybody is so different), than the one who will say, "hey, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!!! And ass this and ass that!!!".


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## dcoscina (Jan 20, 2011)

I like Guy's demo. It made me order the Dimension Brass. I'm looking forward to playing with it. I'm going to use it on the film score I'm working on presently. I'm looking forward to getting it to sound killer. I'm confident it will be to my liking because I own a ton of other VSL libraries.

I like my EWQLSO, Project SAM, LA Scoring Strings, heck, even my lowly MOTU Symphonic Instrument and Miroslav Philkarmonik. I find value in all the orchestral libraries. 

I have no doubt that were someone like Stravinsky or Debussy or Mahler alive today, they could make ANY one of these libraries sing. It's my challenge to observe the same thing and make great music using these sounds. I cannot estimate how a LA Scoring Brass or Hollywood BRass will sound because they are not out presently and I need something NOW, not tomorrow to finish off this project. Hence my purchase. 

I dunno guys, most of the time when I boot up my Mac Pro and look at the list of ALL the VI's I have, I feel blessed, spoiled, and gosh-darn lucky. But that's just my take on things. As I said before, I have less riding on the "quality" of samples than some of you professionals do. 

Peace out. I'm going back to studying Stravinsky's Firebird. Excellent orchestration. Scary ass good.


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## rgames (Jan 20, 2011)

"It sounds like ass."

Whose ass? There are some awfully nice asses out there... 

I listened to the demos and I'm pretty underwhelmed, also.

I think they sound very good at moderate dynamic with moderate motion. But the legatos/repetitions are not what I would expect from a next-generation library - seems like more of the same as what's currently available. Also, the ff dynamics have brassy penetration but seem to lack the weight. They just sound thin. This is a problem I have with the VSL brass in general, so maybe it's a feature...?

But here's a thought: maybe these demos are pushing the samples farther than what's been tried in the past, so the problems might be more obvious.  Don't know - hard to say without having the library in hand to try against the parts I've had trouble with in the past.

Bottom line for me is that they're OK but not groundbreaking.

rgames


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## synergy543 (Jan 20, 2011)

+575 Dave

I got a private e-mail from Guy while he was working on the Dimension Brass demo and he was so excited by this new library. That's what inspired me. I love it when I get a new library and the library itself is inspiring.

Sad to see so many rain on his enthusiasm over it. Gee, can't someone doing demos have a bit of fun anymore?

I used to do demos for Sony and I had such a great time. They were put out on CDs and I never was subjected to the dreaded tough-crowd feedback. It was an honor for people to get these CDs too - not everyone got one. And over all the years, I only got tremendously positive feedback from artist and record producers. There was lot of positive enthusiasm that made myself and the engineers want to work even harder on the next projects.


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## dcoscina (Jan 20, 2011)

good post synergy. I think it's important to maintain an air of decorum when talking about mock-ups and such as a sign of respect towards the author of said demo. Regardless of the sample quality, these guys put time and care into doing their best.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 20, 2011)

As much as I appreciate the last 2 posts, I don't expect people to consider my personal sentiments when posting demos for new libraries, especially if they're going to ditch out the money, I say this right away before someone says it.

I already said what I didn't appreciate, so no need to repeat myself.


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## dcoscina (Jan 20, 2011)

I've been listening to the LA Philharmonic Esa Pekka Salonen reading of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring and the brass on that sound like Dimension Brass to my ears. I guess the guys recording that (live) concert suck a** or maybe the LA Phil brass sound like a**....[rolls eyes]


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## Comonitus (Jan 20, 2011)

> Pointing the finger and saying "that's ass" sounds awfully like an objective comment, not a subjective one which would be "I don't like the sound of it".


It sounds 99% subjective. I wouldn't expect to see "that's ass" in a scientific journal, say. It also doesn't express anything than an extreme adverse reaction to the library, and utterly useless, as do throw away comments saying this and that is "good". However, subsequent follow up provide info on what about the sound, specifically he doesn't like, which is useful. 



> Whose ass? There are some awfully nice asses out there...


Exactly. Also, I haven't a clue what quality of sound asses make but apparently most in the thread have to be up in arms: I can count myself lucky. 



> Sad to see so many rain on his enthusiasm over it. Gee, can't someone doing *demos* have a bit of fun anymore?


Demos are meant to present the library for consideration, and therefore inevitably the library is scrutinized. 

How mind blowingly boring would it be in a world where you're limited in an acceptable way to express yourself.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 20, 2011)

Stop fueling the fire. :evil:


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## dcoscina (Jan 20, 2011)

I like brass...


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## dedersen (Jan 20, 2011)

I like ass...  


Ah, come on, someone had to do it...


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## synergy543 (Jan 20, 2011)

They're not mutually exclusive ya know....

trumpet player


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## Joe S (Jan 20, 2011)

Who is Guy Bacos and is he on VSL's payroll? LOL If not, he should be. He must be, right? Good composition as always. The brass doesn't sound like ass, though. more like wiener. And I mean that in the best way.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 21, 2011)

Joe S @ Fri Jan 21 said:


> Who is Guy Bacos and is he on VSL's payroll? LOL If not, he should be. He must be, right? Good composition as always. The brass doesn't sound like ass, though. more like wiener. And I mean that in the best way.



Thanks about the composition.

You say: Who is this Guy Bacos?

Then you say: Good composition as always.

I would check with your doctor, you may have symptoms of Alzheimer.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 21, 2011)

I probably should of kept the alternative version I did on this thread afterall.

It shows that if you don't like one type of sound you could have various kind of textures, and not just this new one, any voice combination you want.

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19552


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## Mike Connelly (Jan 21, 2011)

Joe S @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> Who is Guy Bacos and is he on VSL's payroll?



With all the official demos that he's done for VSL, I would hope he's getting paid for it.


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## dcoscina (Jan 21, 2011)

If it's of any interest, I'm going to do a demo using QL Spaces and this library. We'll see how that works out. It won't be as good as Guy's musically speaking (I just don't write like him- :() but sonically it should provide another perspective.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jan 21, 2011)

Hannes_F @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> I think much of the crossed lines come from this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




+1


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 21, 2011)

Dave, I hope it's twice as good as mine. I myself will provide something different for my upcoming demo.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jan 21, 2011)

I would like to voice something that I have been wanting to for sometime about VSL and its demos. 


Guy Bacos and Jay Bacal are excellent composers. Änd they write amazing music with samples. Sometimes though, the music is too far-fetched for the samples in question. I think when VSL comes out with a new library, the focus should be on what the samples are capable of rather than what you would write for a usual orchestra. 

I dont want to hear what is not possible to do with the given samples. The idea is to make the demos sound as good as possible while being as naked as is musically and aesthetically relevant. Beyond a point, it just does not sound realistic (it might kick-ass in the real world with a real orchestra). 

And we cannot forget these are samples and we are writing for the samples not players. 


The whole mixing thing is just really odd. I dont understand why when VSL has Dietz and amazing rooms and equipment - who invented MIR and made the Vienna Suite plug ins - cant they mix and master these demos?

Why is it Guy Bacos's job to do it in his room? 

There was a time when VSL would release demos mixed by Dietz and that were properly mastered. 

One cannot possible expect magic from Guy because he is not a mixing engineer or an expert in the audio field. 

I think Guy and Jay could focus just on composing and programming - leaving the mixing and mastering with Dietz or other able hands. This way we get best of both worlds. 

Specially, when a new product is being launched or introduced. For us demos are everything - it makes or breaks the situation.

Frankly, I am in two minds of the potential of Dimension Brass. 

Thats what we need as sample music composers - the potential. 

Somewhere Guy mentioned that he could make better demos with Dimension Brass as he gets used to it. 

But my question is - why isnt the VSL taking care of this. With them making these samples, they clearly have the deepest understanding of the pros and cons - they should take care of such matters.


I say this only because Guy and Jay are the official demo makers of VSL. If they were just doing this on their own not showcasing the products - then its fine. 

Its just like me or anyone else. We all try to make our music sound the best. 

But when its a professional company like VSL - launching a new product, they should really be taking care of this.



Tanuj.


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## Ed (Jan 21, 2011)

I think Guy and Jay do really well with mixing, especially Jay (no insult to Guy). I agree that if it can sound better than that, then VSL should show us that. If not Im going to assume thats probably the best it can sound which may or may not be accurate. That goes for any library. Of course its a problem when you have someone like TJ who makes things sound brilliant so amazingly easily, but he doesn't give away his secrets and its hard for anyone else to get the sound he can, whereas a company like VSL should want people to get the most out of their software. Don't know if that made any sense. This isn't really a complaint about VSL in particular, its just they are one of the only companies to have developed a self contained mixing environment so they are in a good position to do so.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 21, 2011)

Hi Vibrato, thanks for your comments. I won't comment about Ed's post, because there's always something erroneous in his comment when talking about VSL or comparing apple with oranges.

Vibrato, first off, there is already a demo done by Christian K. So it's there. Now, you may not realize this and I think few people do, but our ears have been educated over the last 5 years to the point where we forgot how it sounded back then. Early on, VSL provided demos and they were the top of the line along with a few users including myself. When I listen to what was done back then, the difference is enormous compared to today's standards. What some users brought to VSL was a more musical context to the samples and a more imaginative way of using them. VSL does not put all its money on a JW or Zimmer sound. People with a fixation on a certain cliché sound, don't seem to get this. Being able to do Ravel style with VSL is a very exciting thing, that's why I love it so much.

I agree if I had a month to do the a demo for a new lib it would of been better, I would of had time to test it. But VSL strength is that it gives you the tools to manipulate the sound any way you want, so it's often a question of time before a fantastic demo comes out, and I think between Jay and myself me have done a pretty good job, overall so far. It happened that I did demos that were not well received, Jay as well, and VSL too, even mixed by Dietz with all their facilities. 
Anyway, working on new demos, so stay tuned.


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## jamwerks (Jan 21, 2011)

dcoscina @ Fri Jan 21 said:


> If it's of any interest, I'm going to do a demo using QL Spaces and this library. We'll see how that works out. It won't be as good as Guy's musically speaking (I just don't write like him- :() but sonically it should provide another perspective.



I look forward to hearing these 2 together. And if I may suggest, maybe not too much reverb tail (at least as an alternative mix). o-[][]-o


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## madbulk (Jan 21, 2011)

Guy Bacos @ Fri Jan 21 said:


> I won't comment about Ed's post, because there's always something erroneous in his comment when talking about VSL or comparing apple with oranges.



LOL.
Nope. Definitely not commenting. Definitely.
I kid, GB. Take it easy there, big guy.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 21, 2011)

I was only responding to vibrato. I'm easy.


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## dcoscina (Jan 21, 2011)

I'll take it easy on the reverb. Nick's Spaces has so many to choose from, and smaller halls, I will probably look at that, not a vacuous hall. I like the smaller reflections and have been using smaller verbs lately. Kinda like that Danny Elfman or chamber ensemble sound.

Guy, I think you hit the nail on the head in your other post as to why you get some flack on this forum. With all due respect to most guys here, this forum is populated by film score types or game composers, both of which are required by their clients to provide a lot of over-produced, over-hyped sound because that's what is popular these days. The subtle orchestral shadings of a Ravel or Debussy or Stravinsky have no place in current film score land. Unless you get a whacky director who loves vintage film scores (Golden Age or Silver Age) you're not going to have a lot of opportunities to write music with that kind of room and balance.

Perhaps that's why some guys just cannot get into VSL because it's a refined sound that, as Jose said, accurately reflects a concert hall sound or a live sound, not a recorded sound. That is what differentiates VSL and even Audio Bro from EW, Project SAM and Sonivox. 

Not to dredge up stuff said before, but I personally was a little offended by some comments challenging my ear for accuracy. Just because I'm not a famous composer doesn't negate my 20+ years of composing and performing music. I know what a brass instrument sounds like because I played trombone for more than 10 years. I'm intimately aware of what trumpets and horns sound like because I had the trumpets sitting behind me in jazz orchestra. That's all I'm going to say about that. Take it for what you will.


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## Ed (Jan 21, 2011)

dcoscina @ Fri Jan 21 said:


> The subtle orchestral shadings of a Ravel or Debussy or Stravinsky have no place in current film score land. .



I gotta say I dont know why you keep saying that, I appreciate a well recorded well orchestrated line as much as anyone. Some recordings sound better than others, that's all. Thats just as much the case in concert music and classical recordings of live orchestras as it is with samples which are just very small recordings of instruments stitched together. Some recordings sound better than others, I don't know how else to say it.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 21, 2011)

I know I don't =VSL, but since my demos are constructed with VSL ONLY, I think I can say this much. Many people, as professional as they get, and some well known composers, have raved over the sonic quality of my demos. So if I have the choice between listening to Ed or these people, I know who to believe. So I think Ed had his personal opinion and probably a few others here about VSL, but it end here, it's not a reflection more than a few people on a forum. It seems he absolutely needs to prove something here about VSL.


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## Ed (Jan 21, 2011)

:roll: This is the last time Im posting in this thread Guy.

You keep making stuff out about what I do and don't believe about VSL. Ive had to correct you over and over again so many times Ive lost count.

I don't think VSL sounds bad all the time necessarily and can sound very very good. Ive bought and used VSL products because of that. Got it? Its still the only choice for many instruments because of the level of detail. I still want VSL woodwinds because its still the best, but am holding out for something better. VSL does have problems and there are provably betters ways of recording things. 

Don't worry I know you can't help pretend Im saying something else because for some reason you just don't want to listen to what Im actually saying. I think anyone with a little bit of sense can understand what i'm talking about so I don't think I need to argue this any longer.

Besides Fred gets upset with the arguments and don't want him to annoy him again

If anyone wants to talk about this further start a thread in OT or PM me or something.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 21, 2011)

Ed @ Fri Jan 21 said:


> I don't think I need to argue this any longer.



Thank God!


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 21, 2011)

Did I hear the postal workers may go on strike?


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## dcoscina (Jan 21, 2011)

Grrrr. Luckily I ordered it from Cosmo Music and they get their shipments from Ilio via couriers so I don't have to worry. Nya nya!

Just checked the VSL site and William over there raves about Dimension Brass. Man, I'm envious. He uses the LASS tag line "4 libraries in 1". Ha!


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## José Herring (Jan 21, 2011)

Well thanks to this thread I've got a new lease on VSL. I dusted off my old vsl strings and put them in a piece today and it worked! 

I have Mike and Guy to thank. Thanks for hatin' on each other. I actually did get a lot of usefull info.

best,

Jose


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## mverta (Jan 21, 2011)

I wasn't "hatin'" on anybody; a point I've made about 9000 times now.


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## José Herring (Jan 21, 2011)

Relax. I was just being tongue and cheek.

But, I was real about the info. Thx.

Jose


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 21, 2011)

So there's no confusion, other than the "ass" saga, I have no problem with Mike, in fact I'm a big fan of his craft.


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## Joe S (Jan 21, 2011)

Guy, So you are an official demo maker for VSL? >8o I find this pretty dishonest. You act like some big VSL fan who just loves to make demos. You need to disclose your relationship. I feel like I've been conned a bit. No disrespect to your great demos and the great VSL.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 21, 2011)

Joe S @ Sat Jan 22 said:


> Guy, So you are an official demo maker for VSL? >8o I find this pretty dishonest. You act like some big VSL fan who just loves to make demos. You need to disclose your relationship. I feel like I've been conned a bit. No disrespect to your great demos and the great VSL.



I am a big VSL fan, and do love making demos. It's no act.


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## Joe S (Jan 21, 2011)

Do you receive any compensation for the demos? Do you pay for the libraries? If so you should announce yourself as a VSL employee.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 21, 2011)

I'm not a VSL employe as such, but I am hired to make demos for them.


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## hbuus (Jan 22, 2011)

Joe S @ Sat Jan 22 said:


> Guy, So you are an official demo maker for VSL? >8o I find this pretty dishonest. You act like some big VSL fan who just loves to make demos. You need to disclose your relationship. I feel like I've been conned a bit. No disrespect to your great demos and the great VSL.



+1.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 22, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Sat Jan 22 said:


> Hannes_F @ Sat Jan 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Joe S, everybody usually here knows that Guy is paid by VSL to do demos, so it is not a big secret. While in such a case a declaration usually would be required in other forums most here have got used to it and appreciate the construction since it helps us to learn what and what not to expect from these libraries. As a side effect one cool composer has an income and that is a good thing. I think even more sample developers should do this.
> ...



Joe S, you are new here and there are constantly new people coming here and it is not reasonable to expect that every week or so Guy will post " I am hired by VSL to do demos."


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 22, 2011)

Thought I'd point out one thing, there is de fatco no Silent Stage room signature in these new Brass recordings (compared to previous recordings) You can simply proove this comparing sustains of Dimension Brass stuff with release samples on and off, you will hear that there is not much difference any more, especially compared with previous stuff.


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## guydoingmusic (Jan 23, 2011)

Ok... how do you guys REALLY feel about DB? Ha!

Great job on the demos, Guy.


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## Mike Connelly (Feb 1, 2011)

For comparision, Nick posted the lineup for Hollywood Brass.



> Hollywood Brass can do divisi
> 
> solo horn
> 2 horns
> ...



http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/show ... hp?t=33589


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## mushanga (Sep 19, 2012)

*VSL Dimension Series...*

I was wondering whether VSL's announcement of Dimension Strings has encouraged anyone to reconsider investing in Dimension Brass?

I must say that I am really impressed with the sound of the Dimension Strings (violins) in the demo and video (e.g. the pizzicati sound incredibly detailed). Are Dimension Brass equally as detailed, expressive and as highly regarded as libraries like Cinebrass/Hollywood Brass?

Any thoughts on this would be most welcome.

Thanks in advance!


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Jul 25, 2013)

Well that was a fun read.....


And what did I learn about DB? Sweet F A.


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## mushanga (Jul 25, 2013)

...doesn't look like anyone had anything to say in response to my post either!


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## Casiquire (Jul 25, 2013)

I agree, Guy can't turn around every five seconds and mention that he writes their demos. Anybody who looks into demos for VSL will see his name there. And if you buy a library without hearing demos...you've kind of signed up for being misled. There's even a very recent thread asking Guy about the sound of the cellos in his Dimension Strings demos. Mike Greene and Christian Howe occasionally make posts about other products or their own products, over time you learn who these people are.


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## dcoscina (Jul 26, 2013)

orchestranova @ Thu Jul 25 said:


> ...doesn't look like anyone had anything to say in response to my post either!



I own all of the brass libraries mentioned though I admit only having Hollywood Brass Silver. I would say I used Cinebrass the most for big epic stuff but have gone back to DB because of its flexibility and auto divisi which is actually very nice. 

Here is DB in action with VSL chamber strings

http://snd.sc/147UK2M


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## dcoscina (Jul 26, 2013)

Just to add DB probably have more detail and flexibility than the other brass libraries. That said, for film type music I think HB and CB have a tone that is more consistent with what we hear in Hollywood film music.


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