# Chris Hein is the future of sample libraries for acoustic/orchestral instruments that are dry



## ctsai89 (Apr 12, 2017)

Forget VSL and LASS, I am still waiting for CH to produce a symphonic strings library. I am in love with his orchestral brass library and am addicted to using it. I've tried at a friend's studio his solo violin and heard the demo of the newest italian violin that's being released. I am doing everything I can (even trying to avoid spending on phobos) to spend however much I can save on Chris Hein's solo strings.

But if he would ever release a dry symphonic strings library, I would say it's game over for everyone else in the industry especially VSL (well probably not because VSL will always have the legacy in this industry). And I am sorry to say again, VSL sounds synthy. Chris Hein sounds too realistic.

thoughts?


----------



## Rodney Money (Apr 12, 2017)

My thoughts, "Dude, chill on the hate."


----------



## P.N. (Apr 12, 2017)

Hi, ctsai89.
I agree that Chris Hein's orchestral brass sounds great. I really enjoyed the walkthrough video.

About the rest of the stuff you said... well, i'll agree with Rodney.

VSL sounds synthy?  Come on...

Cheers


----------



## babylonwaves (Apr 12, 2017)

http://vi-control.net/community/members/passsacaglia.12294/#profile-post-961

vsl sounds synthy and "sweden needs a leader like trump" - aha.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 12, 2017)

just simply telling like it is


----------



## trumpoz (Apr 12, 2017)

The Chris Hein stuff is good no doubts - i also have his Orchestral Brass lib and think very highly of it. 

Game over for everyone else - no.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 12, 2017)

and I'm not really hating. 

I'm trying to save everyone's money so they can spend it on the best and I'm wishing everyone would be able to look at things more objectively (Ok, you might think I sounded subjective here) instead of always going for the most overrated stuff (VSL). Especially when it comes to solo strings, and I'm a string player.

And when you're reading my comments, focus on the love for Chris Hein's products instead of the negative things I'm saying. I needed to do it just for reference though.


----------



## Rodney Money (Apr 12, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> And when you're reading my comments, focus on the love for Chris Hein's products instead of the negative things I'm saying. I needed to do it just for reference though.


You do the same, and try to leave out the negativity towards companies that people are fond of. The problem is that you are stating your opinion like it's fact.


----------



## Lotias (Apr 12, 2017)

Maybe when they come out with woodwinds that I actually like the tone of.
Besides, for dry brass, I'd just look to Sample Modelling instead - CH can't handle repetitive legato as well, and doesn't offer tubas.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 12, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> You do the same, and try to leave out the negativity towards companies that people are fond of. The problem is that you are stating your opinion like it's fact.



not my fault if others don't want to take a grain of salt before having to think of my comments a little to suspect that some of the things I say are actually opinions. But I am serious, when I first heard the demoes of solo cello 2 from VSL, I forgot that I was the one that clicked the play button and during a quarter of the way before having finished listening to the demo, I thought to myself: am I listening to a piece someone composed on sibelius 6 years ago? And Chris Hein stuff is the opposite


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 12, 2017)

Lotias said:


> Maybe when they come out with woodwinds that I actually like the tone of.
> Besides, for dry brass, I'd just look to Sample Modelling instead - CH can't handle repetitive legato as well, and doesn't offer tubas.



I don't have the woodwinds since I have spitfire which I find satisfied with so far for that. Are you saying CH's woodwinds are no bueno?


----------



## holywilly (Apr 12, 2017)

Each company produce libraries differently, and of course they all sound different. 

Depends on the genre of music and choosing the right library for the right genre is the art.

Say I have 6 different sets of strings in my template to cover most of the genres I'm working on.


----------



## Rodney Money (Apr 12, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> not my fault if others don't want to take a grain of salt before having to think of my comments a little to suspect that some of the things I say are actually opinions. But I am serious, when I first heard the demoes of solo cello 2 from VSL, I forgot that I was the one that clicked the play button and during a quarter of the way before having finished listening to the demo, I thought to myself: am I listening to a piece someone composed on sibelius 6 years ago? And Chris Hein stuff is the opposite


Yes it is your fault. Grow up, use some tact, and respect companies that are trying to provide you tools, so you can continue your work. Can you compose a full piece just on paper hearing it in your head just minutes before the first live rehearsal? Can you look at a score and hear it in your head without a recording? Can you sightread a score in front of a full orchestra while conducting them? How many people could not even have the ability to write music if it wasn't for samples and other technology? Respect the companies.

Listen, I understand completely what it's like to have a difficult time finding a great sample of one's principle instrument. I am working on a trumpet concerto reaching 40 minutes in length now, and I know without a shadow of doubt that it is absolutely pointless for me to try to find a trumpet sample to even attempt to try to render the movements. With my background I could sit here and absolutely verbally destroy every sample and even rendering from professional sampling companies, but I don't, because my momma taught me if I didn't have anything nice to say then don't say it. Life is too short, especially with people who are trying to help you.

Those renderings on VSL, I've literally either played or conducted so many of those pieces, I know them inside and out, but I'm not going to blast anyone's hard work.

If you want to talk about Chris's samples, then talk about his. I know a large part of this post is to inspire Chris to record the samples you are waiting for, but this is a public forum, and a very well known public forum. You never know who is going to be here to let you demo free samples or even offer you a job or commission. Don't burn bridges here, man, be a positive light shining like a beacon in the night keeping the doors of opportunity wide open.


----------



## Lotias (Apr 12, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> I don't have the woodwinds since I have spitfire which I find satisfied with so far for that. Are you saying CH's woodwinds are no bueno?


I swear they sound strangely muffled in some cases, and just not right in others, and the walkthrough videos didn't impress me either. Not a clue what people are talking about when they say they love the tone, but I'm sure it's usable.


----------



## Polkasound (Apr 12, 2017)

Ctsai89, I read your original post a couple of times, and I didn't pick up any negativity from it. All I found is that you have a strong opinion of the difference between CH and other libraries, and find VSL to sound synthy.

But then I read your third post.

Your third post came through with a very clear tone of condescension. You're suggesting that people who buy and use VSL libraries, instead of CH libraries, are wasting their money on overrated, sub-par products. To suggest that you can save them from their folly is the same as saying that people who prefer VSL over CH are apparently less knowledgeable than you.

All of us who belong to this forum respect your opinions of CH and VSL, but we equally respect the opinions of the amateur musicians who love the sound of their 1980's sound modules. No one's personal taste is superior to anyone else's here.

For the future, I would suggest trying to word your opinions a little differently. There's a _big_ difference between expressing how you feel about a product and expressing how other people should feel about it.

Respectfully,

-Tom


----------



## NoamL (Apr 12, 2017)

Diversity is good, it gives us more options! I don't want any developer to copy another's methodology because what's the point? (although, anyone who is releasing a string library, _please_ steal CSS's idea of mapping the basses 8va and having consistent keyswitches across all five sections)

I am not sure that dry vs wet is an important idea anymore. People used to want dry libraries, if I am remembering correctly, because they were looking to create an *"orchestra in a box"* with one great string section, one great brass section etc. Having dry libraries made it easier to combine the best that each developer had to offer and place it in one consistent space. But now I think the age of OIAB is done. People seem to be looking for, and developers seem to be offering, libraries suited for very specific emotional or stylistic uses. So you might have 4 or 5 string sections, for different uses. Having these sections be perfectly interchangeable and placeable in the hall, seems to me to have diminished in importance compared to "Which string library's musical sensibility is most suited to the idea I wrote?"


----------



## Saxer (Apr 12, 2017)

Nothing against ctsai89s opinion on VSL. I have a different opinion but that's ok. What makes it really exhausting is the number of posts about every other topic which blows out this same opinion again and again like a dependent personatily disorder.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 12, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> Yes it is your fault. Grow up, use some tact, and respect companies that are trying to provide you tools, so you can continue your work. Can you compose a full piece just on paper hearing it in your head just minutes before the first live rehearsal? Can you look at a score and hear it in your head without a recording? Can you sightread a score in front of a full orchestra while conducting them? How many people could not even have the ability to write music if it wasn't for samples and other technology? Respect the companies.
> 
> Listen, I understand completely what it's like to have a difficult time finding a great sample of one's principle instrument. I am working on a trumpet concerto reaching 40 minutes in length now, and I know without a shadow of doubt that it is absolutely pointless for me to try to find a trumpet sample to even attempt to try to render the movements. With my background I could sit here and absolutely verbally destroy every sample and even rendering from professional sampling companies, but I don't, because my momma taught me if I didn't have anything nice to say then don't say it. Life is too short, especially with people who are trying to help you.
> 
> ...



oh actually I can do all of that. And no, I don't appreciate developers not being able to deliver realistic sounding libraries. Perfection is underrated.


----------



## neblix (Apr 12, 2017)

Fortunately, industry patterns and trends aren't dictated by singular people with dogmatic opinions, so rest assured, there's no game over for anyone anytime soon


----------



## synergy543 (Apr 12, 2017)

Saxer said:


> Nothing against ctsai89s opinion on VSL. I have a different opinion but that's ok. What makes it really exhausting is the number of posts about every other topic which blows out this same opinion again and again like a dependent personatily disorder.



Yes, after reading his opinion in thread after thread, it gets tiring.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 12, 2017)

Don't worry ctsai89. One day you will get good in making music with VI and then the whole idea of things sounding "synthy", as well as crusading for the "best" library won't matter any more. But you must practice, and never give up.


----------



## JeffvR (Apr 12, 2017)

I'd love to hear some of his hyper-realistic mockups!


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 12, 2017)

Just love how much my "opinion" is triggering everyone here against me now lol. Like bunch of libertards trying to censor free speech.


----------



## neblix (Apr 12, 2017)

AND WE HAVE A WINNER


----------



## Arbee (Apr 12, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> Just love how much my "opinion" is triggering everyone here against me now lol. Like bunch of libertards trying to censor free speech.


Thankfully most of us know the difference between fact and opinion, so don't stop on our behalf


----------



## Saxer (Apr 12, 2017)

I recently bought a new analog hardware synth because it sounds so VSL.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 12, 2017)

JeffvR said:


> I'd love to hear some of his hyper-realistic mockups!













you tell me, do they sound realistic? I have a feeling they don't come close. I've only been doing this since June 2016.  I use mostly spitfire orchestra layered with CH brass!

edit: Maestro @NoamL I trust your opinion regarding sample libraries and mockups. What can I do better in these mockups? message me if you feel like the thread is going off topic.


----------



## Saxer (Apr 12, 2017)

Sounds good!


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 12, 2017)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Don't worry ctsai89. One day you will get good in making music with VI and then the whole idea of things sounding "synthy", as well as crusading for the "best" library won't matter any more. But you must practice, and never give up.



"best library won't matter anymore" ok. Will you make a mockup using all Logic Pro stock samples and prove me wrong?


----------



## synergy543 (Apr 13, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> Will you make a mockup using all Logic Pro stock samples and prove me wrong?



Created by Michael Tauben


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 13, 2017)

synergy543 said:


> Created by Michael Tauben




i said logic pro samples only. No vienna, no CS2, no cheating!


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 13, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> "best library won't matter anymore" ok. Will you make a mockup using all Logic Pro stock samples and prove me wrong?



No, because I don't use Logic. But I'm damn sure I could make better sounding music with any random set of samples than you're capable of doing with "premium" stuff, because you're a windbag before anything else.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 13, 2017)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> No, because I don't use Logic. But I'm damn sure I could make better sounding music with any random set of samples than you're capable of doing with "premium" stuff, because you're a windbag before anything else.



ok, create one and post it here using whatever DAW you're using. Using only the samples that came with that DAW.


----------



## creativeforge (Apr 13, 2017)

There is so much talent in this forum, many with years and years of hard work and studies, creating music day in and day out. Yes, some samples are "better sounding" than others for some people. But the music we make with what we have - does it speak, does it move people, does it tell a story well? That should count. And our hearing gets more and more discerning, the more we are surrounded and work with the real instruments, I think. In that case when we get working with samples, I suspect we are harder to please, it could be harder to get the same satisfaction as from the organic sound...


----------



## creativeforge (Apr 13, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> and I'm not really hating.
> 
> I'm trying to save everyone's money so they can spend it on the best and I'm wishing everyone would be able to look at things more objectively (Ok, you might think I sounded subjective here) instead of always going for the most overrated stuff (VSL). Especially when it comes to solo strings, and I'm a string player.



May I suggest that this is a "mission" that is doomed to only fuel dissension and not REALLY have a helpful outcome?

I am a piano player, I also used to tune pianos. I can hear strange artifacts in most piano recordings, whether a concert piece, or a sampled piano. How many pianos are being used right now around the world in concerts? They are all different, even two pianos from the same factory, same model, will have differences. We may prefer one over the other, for different reasons.

I also think that "wishing to save everyone's money so they can spend on the best" is wishful thinking, and may simply show a bit of naivete. Don't you think people look at things objectively when they have to fork out hundreds of dollars? A forum like this one is the proof of how much research and comparisons people make before buying. Yet, there is still buyer's remorse.

But if I could give you one last piece of advice, be careful when you come out - a green as you are - to make outrageous claims that VSL is the most overrated (yeah, that's really hating, imho). Knowing the kind of strings you yourself prefer, is one thing. People may share your love of a certain library, but it doesn't mean they share your opinion about every other libraries you don't like.

Allow me: just try to imagine how it sounded: "Ya'll falling for this 'overrated' library, so I come to save you from your ignorance. Follow me. You don't know how to listen well and pick the right library, unless you pick the same as me."

Maybe there are better way to engage in conversation on how you feel about certain libraries. But on VI-Control, we try not to diss developers, and this - to me - is a classic example of what NOT to do. It's a futile exercise, and I would go as far as saying that your approach betrays a negative agenda.

But, maybe it's just late and I can't grasp your real intentions. Or I may be unto something... Maybe asking people why they like such and such a library, could lead to much more constructive exchanges.  

Peace,

Andre


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 13, 2017)

It's funny the amount of obsession people have on my negativity on this thread. 

Why do opinions on sample libraries have to always be a sugar coating olympic? 

Yes, I am challenging people to disagree with my opinion and they should state why VSL solo strings sound better than CH strings. Instead of writing paragraphs and thousands of words, you can argue with me and state your reason on why I'm wrong (in your opinion) about my stating that CH solo strings > VSL strings


----------



## muk (Apr 13, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> thoughts?



Not worth discussing, as it's not a reasonable opinion. You're only looking to pick a fight.


----------



## creativeforge (Apr 13, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> It's funny the amount of obsession people have on my negativity on this thread.
> 
> Why do opinions on sample libraries have to always be a sugar coating olympic?
> 
> Yes, I am challenging people to disagree with my opinion and they should state why VSL solo strings sound better than CH strings. Instead of writing paragraphs and thousands of words, you can argue with me and state your reason on why I'm wrong (in your opinion) about my stating that CH solo strings > VSL strings



Short answer: I don't own any of these libraries. 
Long answer: if many people point to your negativity, maybe they are unto something, and so why persist in your challenge? 

You misunderstood, I think. The medium is the message. The forum is overflowing of conversations about sample libraries. What you are doing, though, is not a conversation. Many people have tried to point it out, some even suggesting a different approach could give better result. But you don't want that. Obviously.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 13, 2017)

muk said:


> Not worth discussing, as it's not a reasonable opinion. You're only looking to pick a fight.



But let's say you have a feeling that you're able to win the fight, wouldn't you take up that challenge? Let me be clear that I am willing to hear what you have to say regarding Vsl vs chris hein vs lass solo strings. And feel free to state why you feel it is not reasonable. My opinions have to do with listening to the demoes (they must be considered decently programmed to have been posted on Vsl's site) and profoundly finding Vsl solo strings to sound synthy

But sure. I apologize for my negativity.


----------



## creativeforge (Apr 13, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> But let's say you have a feeling that you're able to win the fight, wouldn't you take up that challenge? Let me be clear that I am willing to hear what you have to say regarding Vsl vs chris hein vs lass solo strings. And feel free to state why you feel it is not reasonable. My opinions have to do with listening to the demoes (they must be considered decently programmed to have been posted on Vsl's site) and profoundly finding Vsl solo strings to sound synthy
> 
> But sure. I apologize for my negativity.



You cannot do a comprehensive comparison of the quality of sample libraries based on demo songs. You would be comparing the quality of recording and mastering of the songs, as well as what has survived the compression into smaller files. You can say you prefer this one of that one, provided you also male sure to compare "naked" demos, not dressed ones. But if you own a library, you could ask people who own it too, as well as other libraries, what they think about it. That, I can see. But calling it a fight? Wrong move, imho.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 13, 2017)

creativeforge said:


> Short answer: I don't own any of these libraries.
> Long answer: if many people point to your negativity, maybe they are unto something, and so why persist in your challenge?
> 
> You misunderstood, I think. The medium is the message. The forum is overflowing of conversations about sample libraries. What you are doing, though, is not a conversation. Many people have tried to point it out, some even suggesting a different approach could give better result. But you don't want that. Obviously.



And so here I am pointing out that it seems like many (but not all) members on this forum only love hearing opinions that sound politically correct. Really makes me wonder what people actually care about, is it the music or other things that aren't even related? 

again I apologize as my initial few posts on this thread has led many to believe that I wanted something other than just talking about sample libraries.


----------



## creativeforge (Apr 13, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> And so here I am pointing out that it seems like many (but not all) members on this forum only love hearing opinions that sound politically correct. Really makes me wonder what people actually care about, is it the music or other things that aren't even related?



Well, if there is one thing this forum is definitely NOT is being "politically correct." Yuo should know this by now. 



> again I apologize as my initial few posts on this thread has led many to believe that I wanted something other than just talking about sample libraries.



Thanks, this is music to my ears...  But truly, I think sometimes we need to work on your delivery...


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 13, 2017)

creativeforge said:


> Well, if there is one thing this forum is definitely NOT is being "politically correct." Yuo should know this by now



Not good enough at it. Lots of members here love making a library sound better that it is thinking that sugar coating can earn them jobs here because "you never know what happens".


----------



## Iskra (Apr 13, 2017)

I enjoy a good argument as much as the next guy, but calling any exchange of opinions (not politically correct) a 'fight' doesn't do any good. In a forum, besides the emojis, one have to be really careful with the delivery of any message, it's not like talking face to face. Also this forum is heavily populated by people for which English is not their mother language, so even more carefulness is needed, imho.
And still being careful, you can have some good "fights", as proven in other threads.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 13, 2017)

Iskra said:


> I enjoy a good argument as much as the next guy, but calling any exchange of opinions (not politically correct) a 'fight' doesn't do any good. In a forum, besides the emojis, one have to be really careful with the delivery of any message, it's not like talking face to face. Also this forum is heavily populated by people for which English is not their mother language, so even more carefulness is needed, imho.
> And still being careful, you can have some good "fights", as proven in other threads.



lol fair enough


----------



## creativeforge (Apr 13, 2017)

Nobody is working here, just so you know. The forum is not employing anyone.

You said you just started in the fall of 2016. Maybe you could work at accepting other people's opinions based on their years of experience, and not just chalk it up to political correctness. People like what they like, for their own reasons. No need to make it a conspiracy of some sort. 

If I was to discuss an array of different strings libraries based on the one (1) I own, and using demo songs from the others to make my points, I think I would only show that I don't understand what makes a library great for one, and not enough for another. There are better way to compare libraries, imho.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 13, 2017)

creativeforge said:


> Nobody is working here, just so you know. The forum is not employing anyone.
> 
> You said you just started in the fall of 2016. Maybe you could work at accepting other people's opinions based on their years of experience, and not just chalk it up to political correctness. People like what they like, for their own reasons. No need to make it a conspiracy of some sort.



But my judgement on the sound of libraries as a string player and cello teacher goes for more than 20 years with a number of my sstudents making it into Honors orchestras in Southern California (we have a very competitive atmosphere for education here) and I'm relatively young with ears undamaged.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 13, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> ok, create one and post it here using whatever DAW you're using. Using only the samples that came with that DAW.



150$/min


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 13, 2017)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> 150$/min



only if you didn't try to attack me first on a personal level by hinting I must be a newbie of some sort. I was simply having a backbone by commenting back at you. But if you're going to charge me then I guess you don't deserve to prove your abilities in creating mockups better than me using any random samples or to prove that gear and libraries don't matter.


----------



## SoNowWhat? (Apr 13, 2017)

I'm a Chris Hein fan. A bombastic approach may turn as many people off as it attracts. My opinion only. 

Chris' sample libraries are able to stand on their own.


----------



## enCiphered (Apr 13, 2017)

Thank God there are so many different sample libraries to choose from with various sound and sound quality! Dry and processed.
We are living in the year 2017 and the last thing I want is that my music sounds like a specific sample library..


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 13, 2017)

enCiphered said:


> Thank God there are so many different sample libraries to choose from with various sound and sound quality! Dry and processed.
> We are living in the year 2017 and the last thing I want is that my music sounds like a specific sample library..



The last thing I want is for people to point out my music was electronically produced and not recorded. I agree with you though but that would be the 2nd priority after the first


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 13, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> only if you didn't try to attack me first on a personal level by hinting I must be a newbie of some sort. I was simply having a backbone by commenting back at you. But if you're going to charge me then I guess you don't deserve to prove your abilities in creating mockups better than me using any random samples or to prove that gear and libraries don't matter.



I still think you're a windbag. Yes, that's a personal judgement.


----------



## airflamesred (Apr 13, 2017)

I don't like CH brass, the Woodwinds I do like.


----------



## muk (Apr 13, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> Let me be clear that I am willing to hear what you have to say regarding Vsl vs chris hein vs lass solo strings. And feel free to state why you feel it is not reasonable. My opinions have to do with listening to the demoes (they must be considered decently programmed to have been posted on Vsl's site) and profoundly finding Vsl solo strings to sound synthy



Sure, that's something I'd like to discuss. Solo strings seem to be exceedingly difficult to sample, especially for a traditional quartet setting. I don't know of any fully satisfying library for that purpose. VSL solo strings are there in terms of content (huge amount of articulations, which is important for string quartet settings) and consistency. But I am not really happy with the sound.
On the other end I have Berlin Strings First Chairs. I like the sound a lot, but there are many inconsistencies between articulations, the players, and in the programming. It doesn't matter so much for layering, but for solo work the library is not suitable for me.
The Virharmonic Bohemian series brought a breath of fresh air. I have the violin and like it a lot, but again, not in a string quartet setting. To my ears it has a modern tone, very good for tv- and commerical music, but not so much for a more classical tone.

I haven't looked into Chris Hein solo strings yet. If they are as good as you wrote they would fill a gap in my arsenal of sample libraries. Will check it out. Until then, for me the only truly satisfactory solution for string quartet pieces is having them recorded by proper players. Luckily that is much more affordable than a full orchestral recording.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 13, 2017)

muk said:


> Sure, that's something I'd like to discuss. Solo strings seem to be exceedingly difficult to sample, especially for a traditional quartet setting. I don't know of any fully satisfying library for that purpose. VSL solo strings are there in terms of content (huge amount of articulations, which is important for string quartet settings) and consistency. But I am not really happy with the sound.
> On the other end I have Berlin Strings First Chairs. I like the sound a lot, but there are many inconsistencies between articulations, the players, and in the programming. It doesn't matter so much for layering, but for solo work the library is not suitable for me.
> The Virharmonic Bohemian series brought a breath of fresh air. I have the violin and like it a lot, but again, not in a string quartet setting. To my ears it has a modern tone, very good for tv- and commerical music, but not so much for a more classical tone.
> 
> I haven't looked into Chris Hein solo strings yet. If they are as good as you wrote they would fill a gap in my arsenal of sample libraries. Will check it out. Until then, for me the only truly satisfactory solution for string quartet pieces is having them recorded by proper players. Luckily that is much more affordable than a full orchestral recording.



you actually sound like the way I think. I think it's important to note that sample libraries serve 2 purposes: traditional vs film. I personally am only fond of (orchestral instrument) libraries that are good for both. My impression with Chris Hein's orchestral brass and the solo violin (even though I've only had a few hours to play with it) is that they are very versatile (and of course like I've been saying, it sounds realistic even if you don't give it enough deep programming). Chris Hein's legato transitions are juicy without much lags as well. There was something about the legato transitions in some of the demoes (especially the mendelssohn one) I heard from Bohemian violin that really turns me off and as I stated on other threads: the lower notes on E string are too bright and an option should be available for sul A in those notes. Best of luck if you decide to purchase Chris Hein's violin!

whew! the conversation has finally started. Thank you @muk


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 13, 2017)

airflamesred said:


> I don't like CH brass, the Woodwinds I do like.



Why not? for Chris Hein brass, just wondering. And I've heard many say the opposite.


----------



## procreative (Apr 13, 2017)

Dont get me wrong, Chris Hein libraries do indeed sound very good, although the Solo Strings seem to almost have too many choices to make and look a bit daunting (to me).

But the studio setup required to record dry solo samples is a bit simpler than recording ensemble strings in seated positions. The editing, scripting etc are increased as is the possibility to introduce issues.

So while CH makes great soloistic or small ensemble libraries, they have yet to tackle this kind of beast.

Synthiness has a lot to do with RRs and Dynamic levels in my opinion. Thats why some libraries only sound good in small bursts.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 13, 2017)

procreative said:


> Dont get me wrong, Chris Hein libraries do indeed sound very good, although the Solo Strings seem to almost have too many choices to make and look a bit daunting (to me).
> 
> But the studio setup required to record dry solo samples is a bit simpler than recording ensemble strings in seated positions. The editing, scripting etc are increased as is the possibility to introduce issues.
> 
> ...



probably not so much RR for me regarding synthiness. But one of the things that offends me the most regarding the sound of VSL solo cello 2 is that from D3 ~ G4 range (and many other notes as well) especially during legatos, has some crazy weird nasal sound.


----------



## holywilly (Apr 13, 2017)

Don't you guys need to sleep? Get some rest and your ears will be fresh in the morning.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 13, 2017)

holywilly said:


> Don't you guys need to sleep? Get some rest and your ears will be fresh in the morning.



not everyone live in America though.


----------



## airflamesred (Apr 13, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> Why not? for Chris Hein brass, just wondering. And I've heard many say the opposite.


Merely a preference for SM.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 13, 2017)

airflamesred said:


> Merely a preference for SM.



my experience with sample modeling brass is that it gets extremely screamy and was very hard to mix it to other libraries in an orchestral setting. Trombones and tubas are also missing some low end frequencies. There also isn't much imperfection intended into the library because all the notes are in tune, then of course this would result in sounding a little fake. CH brass on the other hand, some of the notes are just a little bit out of tune (3rd trumpet for example) and when you assign each note of a chord to a different trumpet, you will get a very organically beautiful sound that results from the little bit of off tune character. There's no tuba. SM makes the most playable libraries though.


----------



## airflamesred (Apr 13, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> my experience with sample modeling brass is that it gets extremely screamy and was very hard to mix it to other libraries in an orchestral setting.


Only with the mod wheel to high.


> Trombones and tubas are also missing some low end frequencies.


Fair point


> There also isn't much imperfection intended into the library because all the notes are in tune, then of course this would result in sounding a little fake. CH brass on the other hand, some of the notes are just a little bit out of tune (3rd trumpet for example) and when you assign each note of a chord to a different trumpet, you will get a very organically beautiful sound that results from the little bit of off tune character.


Yes but baked in/sampled imperfections are the same as baked in/sampled perfection. The 'bit out of tune', 'slightly out of time' to which you are eluding to should be in your performance not from rr4.


----------



## trumpoz (Apr 13, 2017)

Your experience with sample modelling brass is different to mine and I would suggest taking more time with the libraries. I have the trombone and it is easily the most expressive instrument i have had the pleasure of using - so much so that I fool trombone players with it when using it in a full orchestra or commercial setting.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 13, 2017)

trumpoz said:


> Your experience with sample modelling brass is different to mine and I would suggest taking more time with the libraries. I have the trombone and it is easily the most expressive instrument i have had the pleasure of using - so much so that I fool trombone players with it when using it in a full orchestra or commercial setting.



no well, I actually liked sample modeling brass, if I hated it probably would've ended up bashing it like I did to VSL/LASS (nah im just kidding, will try not to do that from now on ). I like it more than most other brass libraries for sure.


----------



## airflamesred (Apr 13, 2017)

trumpoz said:


> Your experience with sample modelling brass is different to mine and I would suggest taking more time with the libraries. I have the trombone and it is easily the most expressive instrument i have had the pleasure of using - so much so that I fool trombone players with it when using it in a full orchestra or commercial setting.


Absolutely, And there is no pitch bend fudge going on for the slide.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 13, 2017)

airflamesred said:


> Only with the mod wheel to high.
> 
> Fair point
> 
> Yes but baked in/sampled imperfections are the same as baked in/sampled perfection. The 'bit out of tune', 'slightly out of time' to which you are eluding to should be in your performance not from rr4.



pretty sure someone on this forum said that the sample modeling brass at high dynamic level doesn't sound so much natural (was it noamL?) and I actually did not notice that at first when I playing around with it.


----------



## John Busby (Apr 13, 2017)

this thread is awesome!


----------



## Karl Feuerstake (Apr 13, 2017)

Honestly a lot of this thread just reads like bait, trying to lure people in who may like VSL products or other companies who aren't "Chris Hein" and then just starting a flame war with them.


----------



## Polkasound (Apr 13, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> But let's say you have a feeling that you're able to win the fight, wouldn't you take up that challenge?



You can't win or lose with a subjective opinion, period. If someone said, "The Grand Canyon is ugly", he would be 100% right according to everyone who thinks the Grand Canyon is ugly. If there is just one person on earth who prefers the sound of VSL over CH for any reason, then your entire argument is moot.



ctsai89 said:


> I'm trying to save everyone's money so they can spend it on the best and I'm wishing everyone would be able to look at things more objectively (Ok, you might think I sounded subjective here) instead of always going for the most overrated stuff (VSL). Especially when it comes to solo strings, and I'm a string player.



I wish you would go back and read my first response in the first page of this thread. There's nothing wrong with having and sharing an opinion, whether positive of negative, but please don't tell people how they should feel about a product, nor imply that their ability to choose virtual instrument libraries is inferior to yours. That's crossing the line of professionalism.

Your opinions will always be welcome here, but they will never carry more weight than anyone else's. If you think they should, perhaps you'd be more comfortable posting in Craigslist Politics.


----------



## creativeforge (Apr 13, 2017)

In all fairness, the OP has evolved his stand, as we writes: "again I apologize as my initial few posts on this thread has led many to believe that I wanted something other than just talking about sample libraries."


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 13, 2017)

Polkasound said:


> You can't win or lose with a subjective opinion, period. If someone said, "The Grand Canyon is ugly", he would be 100% right according to everyone who thinks the Grand Canyon is ugly. If there is just one person on earth who prefers the sound of VSL over CH for any reason, then your entire argument is moot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Please don't tell me what I should be doing. If you feel like the way my comments are making you feel I.e. "Your ability to choose a virtual instrument is inferior to mine" simply ignore it. And I'm not getting paid to post threads here so I don't know what "professionalism" you're talking about here. Again, the kind of obsession continues instead of a real talk and discussion on virtual instrument

Plus nothing was directed against you personally.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 13, 2017)

creativeforge said:


> In all fairness, the OP has evolved his stand, as we writes: "again I apologize as my initial few posts on this thread has led many to believe that I wanted something other than just talking about sample libraries."



Thank you


----------



## Parsifal666 (Apr 13, 2017)

The VSL instruments I've messed with (outside of the often delightedly useful stuff in the Kontakt Factory library...if that counts) were really nice tools. I don't remember a synthy sound to the strings, but hey it might have been the context of the recording, production boo-boos, etc.

The only reason I haven't bought their stuff is because I feel covered with EW, Hein, and Spitfire.

As far as Chris' stuff being the future...well, I know I would be more than be happy with more instruments with that kind of articulation manipulability, sure! I adore the Hein vibrato page, and applying controllers can be a really gratifying experience with his libraries. At least for me.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 13, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> The VSL instruments I've messed with (outside of the often delightedly useful stuff in the Kontakt Factory library...if that counts) were really nice tools. I don't remember a synthy sound to the strings, but hey it might have been the context of the recording, production boo-boos, etc.
> 
> The only reason I haven't bought their stuff is because I feel covered with EW, Hein, and Spitfire.
> 
> As far as Chris' stuff being the future...well, I know I could more than be happy with more instruments with that kind of articulation manipulability, sure! I adore the Hein vibrato page, and applying controllers can be a really gratifying experience with his libraries. At least for me.



Manipultability! I like that word!


----------



## Parsifal666 (Apr 13, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> Manipultability! I like that word!



I think I inadvertently made it up, but hey thanks, lol! Manipulability fits, huh?


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 13, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> I think I inadvertently made it up, but hey thanks, lol! Manipulability fits, huh?



Hell yes. That's precisely one of words I wanted to think of to use to describe chris hein's libraries but I couldn't think of it at the time because you know what had caused me a bit of stress.. 

I will always stand with Wagner- the man who inspired Scriabin


----------



## Polkasound (Apr 13, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> Plus nothing was directed against you personally.



I did not take your posts personally. (I don't even own any VSL products, so I have no opinion of them either way.)

A professional code of conduct has always been the convention here, and all that requires is a little bit of tact. That's all that is asked of anyone who posts here. You could have very easily conveyed your thoughts without the condescending remarks, but chose not to. Please understand that posting with intentional disregard for other people's feelings is your right, but that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. VI-Control is not Craigslist Politics, and I think most of us would prefer to keep this...



ctsai89 said:


> Just love how much my "opinion" is triggering everyone here against me now lol. Like bunch of libertards trying to censor free speech.



... out of it.

Thank you.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 13, 2017)

Polkasound said:


> I did not take your posts personally. (I don't even own any VSL products, so I have no opinion of them either way.)
> 
> A professional code of conduct has always been the convention here, and all that requires is a little bit of tact. That's all that is asked of anyone who posts here. You could have very easily conveyed your thoughts without the condescending remarks, but chose not to. Please understand that posting with intentional disregard for other people's feelings is your right, but that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. VI-Control is not Craigslist Politics, and I think most of us would prefer to keep this...
> 
> ...



And why haven't you pointed out someone calling me using the word "windbag" ,questioning their "professional" code of conduct? I may have sounded condescending but literally all the initial posts turned against me instead of talking about samples like professionals should. Yes part of it was my fault and I apologized. Let me apologize again, sorry if I made you or anyone feel like I had the better ability to choose a library. That wasn't even my intention in the first place but if you looked at it positively, I was just praising chris Hein's products at the same time hoping that he would create a symphonic strings library. And I needed reference point so I picked out dry libraries others have thought were good but I'm sorry my words regarding those libraries have seemed to offend some people and have realized that it wasn't the best way to bring about praising another library on this forum.


----------



## Polkasound (Apr 13, 2017)

Ctasai89, thank you for sharing those words. I agree that some of the responses toward you were also not very professional, but I'm sure you can understand that when people are rubbed the wrong way, even if it wasn't intentional, the responses are not going to be favorable.

The unfortunate thing about online forums is that it's not always possible to know a person's intent, because everyone writes differently, and tones can be perceived differently. I perceived your first post as a strong but harmless opinion, but others took offense to your use of superlatives. These things happen in online forums, which is why it's always best that we word our opinions with the feelings of others in mind.

After listening to your phenomenal mockups, you obviously know what you're doing, so I have no doubt many people find value in your opinions. I hope you'll keep sharing them, and your music.

Best,

-Tom


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 13, 2017)

Polkasound said:


> Ctasai89, thank you for sharing those words. I agree that some of the responses toward you were also not very professional, but I'm sure you can understand that when people are rubbed the wrong way, even if it wasn't intentional, the responses are not going to be favorable.
> 
> The unfortunate thing about online forums is that it's not always possible to know a person's intent, because everyone writes differently, and tones can be perceived differently. I perceived your first post as a strong but harmless opinion, but others took offense to your use of superlatives. These things happen in online forums, which is why it's always best that we word our opinions with the feelings of others in mind.
> 
> ...



Thanks. Those words mean a lot to me


----------



## creativeforge (Apr 13, 2017)

Polkasound said:


> A professional code of conduct has always been the convention here, and all that requires is a little bit of tact. That's all that is asked of anyone who posts here. You could have very easily conveyed your thoughts without the condescending remarks, but chose not to. Please understand that posting with intentional disregard for other people's feelings is your right, but that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. VI-Control is not Craigslist Politics, and I think most of us would prefer to keep this...
> 
> ... out of it.



Well conveyed, and I fully agree. Lesson learned, I hope. The OP seems to have found a conversational groove...


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 13, 2017)

ctsai89, so far we've had two reports to moderators about your ridiculous "censoring libertard" remark.

They're totally appropriate, but it's very difficult for me to be a calm moderator here (as opposed to just shouting at you for thinking that way, never mind for actually posting it and celebrating your faulty intellectual processes).

Therefore I won't even try. This is me posting as a forum member: you have a lot of nerve! People who disagree with you are not being politically correct just for disagreeing with you, and accusing them of that doesn't automatically give your opinions the high ground. More importantly, so far your opinions haven't been censored - any more than we liberals ever censor free speech.

So please leave your "libertard" stuff in the toilet where it belongs. Then flush repeatedly, and use a plunger when it sticks on the way down.

Note: this has nothing to do with my opinion of Chris Hein libraries. He brings some unique ideas about sampling to the world, and he has a lot of experience. That's a totally separate issue from this nonsense.


----------



## neblix (Apr 13, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> literally all the initial posts turned against me instead of talking about samples like professionals should.



I don't think you know what the word *literally *means.


----------



## creativeforge (Apr 13, 2017)

anthraxsnax said:


> Libs dont value free speech in 2017, nor they value any freedoms in the long run.
> 
> Just like those "other" libraries that don't value the freedom of using your own reverb...
> 
> ...



Only the impossible is impossible.


----------



## creativeforge (Apr 13, 2017)

Better?


----------



## thesteelydane (Apr 13, 2017)

anthraxsnax said:


> Libs dont value free speech in 2017, nor they value any freedoms in the long run.
> 
> -----
> 
> ...



This is irony, right?


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Apr 13, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> you tell me, do they sound realistic? I have a feeling they don't come close. I've only been doing this since June 2016.  I use mostly spitfire orchestra layered with CH brass!
> 
> edit: Maestro @NoamL I trust your opinion regarding sample libraries and mockups. What can I do better in these mockups? message me if you feel like the thread is going off topic.




These are actually pretty good IMHO. I would have to listen carefully several times to spot that they are mock-ups. Could these be better? Sure. I have been working hard to improve my skills with samples, and I don't think I could do any better. I would probably have different failings, but still failings. 

Here is a short extract from one of my favorite string quartets performed on VSL Solo Strings by Herb Tucmandl.

https://app.box.com/s/a3pgzcohrh9o6yy5q11qq33eysje5804

Sounds fantastic to me, and I played that piece on cello in college. Not as well as Herb does so with VSL samples of course.


----------



## thesteelydane (Apr 13, 2017)

anthraxsnax said:


> Is your name by chance a reference to Steely Dan? Or just coincidence...
> 
> /thought-provoked beard stroke



No, it's a word play on a certain dildo in Naked Lunch and my nationality, as well as the nickname given to me in 2001 by pretty much all the waitresses in Harrisburg, PA. The rest is indeed a coincidence.


----------



## Quasar (Apr 13, 2017)

neblix said:


> I don't think you know what the word *literally *means.


I literally climb the walls, blow a gasket and hit the roof when people confuse "literally" with "figuratively".


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 13, 2017)

Hey, if any conservatives want to get the intellectual crap beaten out of them (by me), feel free to post in the Off-Topics discussion area.

This section is for sample talk only, please.


----------



## thesteelydane (Apr 13, 2017)

Edit: removed, because I was lured into a political discussion that doesn't belong here. Back to samples.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 13, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> These are actually pretty good IMHO. I would have to listen carefully several times to spot that they are mock-ups. Could these be better? Sure. I have been working hard to improve my skills with samples, and I don't think I could do any better. I would probably have different failings, but still failings.
> 
> Here is a short extract from one of my favorite string quartets performed on VSL Solo Strings by Herb Tucmandl.
> 
> ...



Paul, thank you for listening and your feedback! It's actually pretty simple to get the sound I have with the template I've set up. I do not mix volume levels during the mockup, they are all pre-mixed. My cc#1 automations are all usually just straight line automations. I personally believe having had bought spitfire orchestra and Chris Hein brass products have made "sounding realistic" fairly quick. I think if you're willing to set up the same template I have set up and and then if you had spent a bit more time on it than I had, you would for sure have had gotten better results than I did. Being a cellist has helped me greatly in having certain standard of judgement in the musicality during a mockup. And I recall, you are also a cellist. Feel free to shoot me a message if you're interested in knowing exactly how I've set up my template.

Regarding the Schubert excerpt performed by VSL solo strings: It's very clean, but the shorts sounded synthy to me. Were there round robins or were they humanized? THe beginning note D was fine, and then the triplets following it sounded like "Eh EH Eh (Nasal) G" to me. Hmm, well, I'm listening to it several times actually, it might be because it can take some getting used to... not sure.

I wonder if anyone's made a mockup of debussy's string quartet.. that would be my favorite one. Maybe i'll try doing it with SCS

By the way, I'm working on a mockup of a cello concerto ( i can't say which it is yet ) with me playing the cello solo part and mocking up rest of the parts from the orchestra


----------



## robgb (Apr 13, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> Forget VSL and LASS, I am still waiting for CH to produce a symphonic strings library. I am in love with his orchestral brass library and am addicted to using it. I've tried at a friend's studio his solo violin and heard the demo of the newest italian violin that's being released. I am doing everything I can (even trying to avoid spending on phobos) to spend however much I can save on Chris Hein's solo strings.
> 
> But if he would ever release a dry symphonic strings library, I would say it's game over for everyone else in the industry especially VSL (well probably not because VSL will always have the legacy in this industry). And I am sorry to say again, VSL sounds synthy. Chris Hein sounds too realistic.
> 
> thoughts?


Thoughts? I think people get hung up on "synthy." You know what? No matter how beautifully recorded and scripted, you're essentially playing a synth. And who cares? If the music sounds good, it sounds good. That goes for Hein, VSL, LASS and all the others.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 13, 2017)

robgb said:


> Thoughts? I think people get hung up on "synthy." You know what? No matter how beautifully recorded and scripted, you're essentially playing a synth. And who cares? If the music sounds good, it sounds good. That goes for Hein, VSL, LASS and all the others.



Yes, I am one of those people. Way way way too hung up.


----------



## robgb (Apr 13, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> Yes, I am one of those people. Way way way too hung up.


The point being that any library can sound synthy in the wrong hands. It's very difficult to make them NOT sound synthy. I have yet to hear an orchestral mockup that succeeds in actually mimicking an orchestra. Some come very close but fall short of the mark. But why should that matter? Most people will be fooled anyway. Just make music and enjoy yourself. Write beautiful music and nobody will give a crap what you used to make it.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 13, 2017)

robgb said:


> The point being that any library can sound synthy in the wrong hands. It's very difficult to make them NOT sound synthy. I have yet to hear an orchestral mockup that succeeds in actually mimicking an orchestra. Some come very close but fall short of the mark. But why should that matter? Most people will be fooled anyway. Just make music and enjoy yourself. Write beautiful music and nobody will give a crap what you used to make it.



maybe. But a lot of times, I have a goal where I want to impress my elitist musician colleagues (and I don't think I do that too well anyways). The point is also, some libraries is much more diffucult to make them not sound synthy (some are much much much more difficult than another). There needs to be a good balance between what gear you're using and how you use it. It's not all gear nor is it all how you use it, especially when it comes to mocking up traditional classical music.


----------



## Saxer (Apr 14, 2017)

It's neither the library nor the user what makes the result. It's always the combination of both.

Some people are great at constructing music just by working in the piano roll by mouse. Some others are great real time keyboard players. Some are experienced key switches users, some have tons of tracks for separate articulations, some like to play with breath controller, pedals, faders or iPads or they draw in the editor.
All of them have a different focus as they come from different instruments and styles they hear or play. Some want monophonic single instruments and other want polyphonic ensemble libraries. Some are experienced mixers and want flexibility, others want a sound out of the box. Some want a pure orchestral sound and others want to make bigger than live hybrid stuff or additional elements for pop songs. All of them need different libraries or use the same libraries in a different way.
And because of that you can't select libraries by sound only. You can only judge them by the results you get yourself out of it and (very important) how do you feel using it.
If a library contains sounds, detuning, wetness, dryness, nasal resonances, noises, or any playing behavior that makes you mad, forget it. You'll have no fun using it. That opinion might change later. But choosing the wrong toy makes you focus on things you don't like and that will slow down your workflow and fun. So get the stuff that works best for you and not for others. And probably you can't know what's the best for others too.
It's good to discuss all aspects of libraries but you always see it in your own light only. Sometimes it's very enlightening to recognize the light of others too.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 14, 2017)

Saxer said:


> It's neither the library nor the user what makes the result. It's always the combination of both.
> 
> Some people are great at constructing music just by working in the piano roll by mouse. Some others are great real time keyboard players. Some are experienced key switches users, some have tons of tracks for separate articulations, some like to play with breath controller, pedals, faders or iPads or they draw in the editor.
> All of them have a different focus as they come from different instruments and styles they hear or play. Some want monophonic single instruments and other want polyphonic ensemble libraries. Some are experienced mixers and want flexibility, others want a sound out of the box. Some want a pure orchestral sound and others want to make bigger than live hybrid stuff or additional elements for pop songs. All of them need different libraries or use the same libraries in a different way.
> ...



couldn't have said it better


----------



## Parsifal666 (Apr 14, 2017)

anthraxsnax said:


> My inner sjw says yes, but my need for memes says no.
> 
> I find it insane how spoiled I've become to the point that I barely want to make music because I always feel like I need another library ect just because another library does x without much tweaking ect...
> 
> In reality if I ever get a chance to actually make music it'll probably sound pretty good



This can be a bad trap to get into, and I honestly hope your spending decreases and musicmaking increases.

Actually, I have to partially take that back. Do what makes ya happy!


----------



## NYC Composer (Apr 14, 2017)

It was probably ahead of its time anyway.


----------



## Ashermusic (Apr 14, 2017)

Saxer said:


> It's neither the library nor the user what makes the result. It's always the combination of both.
> 
> Some people are great at constructing music just by working in the piano roll by mouse. Some others are great real time keyboard players. Some are experienced key switches users, some have tons of tracks for separate articulations, some like to play with breath controller, pedals, faders or iPads or they draw in the editor.
> All of them have a different focus as they come from different instruments and styles they hear or play. Some want monophonic single instruments and other want polyphonic ensemble libraries. Some are experienced mixers and want flexibility, others want a sound out of the box. Some want a pure orchestral sound and others want to make bigger than live hybrid stuff or additional elements for pop songs. All of them need different libraries or use the same libraries in a different way.
> ...




And some of us are great in that we please our clients 

But this is a good summation IMHO, Saxer. That said, how do you explain how Roberto makes every library he touches, ones that are well regarded and some that are not, sound great? I really hate that guy


----------



## Saxer (Apr 14, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> That said, how do you explain how Roberto makes every library he touches, ones that are well regarded and some that are not, sound great? I really hate that guy


There are always some people who just know how to do it right. I know a guy who can grab any instrument and learn to play it in a couple of weeks. It's a bit scary but as those guys are as nice people as Rob everything is fine.


----------



## Ashermusic (Apr 14, 2017)

Saxer said:


> There are always some people who just know how to do it right. I know a guy who can grab any instrument and learn to play it in a couple of weeks. It's a bit scary but as those guys are as nice people as Rob everything is fine.



Indeed, he is as nice as he is talented, and that is saying something!


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 14, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> Indeed, he is as nice as he is talented, and that is saying something!



Wait, post something from him I want to know what you guys are talking about!


----------



## Niah2 (Apr 14, 2017)

I'm also a big fan of Roberto. The key is that he knows what works and doesn't work for any given library.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 14, 2017)

Niah2 said:


> I'm also a big fan of Roberto. The key is that he knows what works and doesn't work for any given library.



So with a library that everyone says may not be good he just writes music with it having to avoid everything that it isn't good at doing?


----------



## AdamAlake (Apr 14, 2017)

I prefer Albert Heijn.


----------



## Niah2 (Apr 14, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> So with a library that everyone says may not be good he just writes music with it having to avoid everything that it isn't good at doing?



That's more or less the idea. I believe that every library has a musical identity, a stamp and many people try to bend them by force to fit their music. I think that's what makes for a lot of not so natural sounding mockups. You have to have the right tools to accomplish certain ideas, certain libraries are not suitable for certain styles of music and certain sounds won't sound big no matter how much processing it goes into them, etc...
I think Rob simply looks at a library, sees its strengths and writes a piece of music that serves the library well and that said library can accomplish. Very simple but maybe most people lack this adaptability and instinct, I don't know.

Also most media working composers are not in this privileged position though, they just have to realize their client's ideas with what tools they have and that's a different challenge altogether.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 14, 2017)

Niah2 said:


> That's more or less the idea. I believe that every library has a musical identity, a stamp and many people try to bend them by force to fit their music. I think that's what makes for a lot of not so natural sounding mockups. You have to have the right tools to accomplish certain ideas, certain libraries are not suitable for certain styles of music and certain sounds won't sound big no matter how much processing it goes into them, etc...
> I think Rob simply looks at a library, sees its strengths and writes a piece of music that serves the library well and that said library can accomplish. Very simple but maybe most people lack this adaptability and instinct, I don't know.
> 
> Also most media working composers are not in this privileged position though, they just have to realize their client's ideas with what tools they have and that's a different challenge altogether.



I usually work the other way around. Ideas come first then I choose libraries that cater to the styles my piece involves. But seriously though, I'm really only fond of libraries that is as versatile as it can be. I would hate to have to write a 20 min long symphony (which of course would involve lots of things going on) and would have to use several templates or having to freeze tracks or scrolling down in a template of 800+ tracks till I get eye strain to find the instrument I need just so I can do everything I need to do with different lbraries. My philosophy is that 1 library per instrument should be able to do at least 90% of the things I need and I find that spitfire (except for the brass)and chris hein does that very well


----------



## trumpoz (Apr 15, 2017)

In reality this is why people have multiple libraries of the same section as they will have different strengths and weaknesses. My brass template is a combination of Hollywood Brass, VSL, Sample Modelling and Chris Hein Orchestral Brass and I have collected these over time. They have different strengths for different situations. For instance the VSL Cornet to me sounds terrible as a cornet, but for a lyrical trumpet sound above the stave it sounds fantastic to my ear. The combination of VSL Triple Horn, CHOB and EW 2 Horns makes for a lovely section. My trombone section is mainly Sample Modelling as they are an incredibly easy instrument for me to use (some eq and wrangling is needed to get them to sit in the mix).

If could justify the $ id buy LASS purely for the shorts. It would complement HS and VSL very well in my template.


----------



## novaburst (Apr 15, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> Just love how much my "opinion" is triggering everyone here against me



I think they are not so much against you they are just other opinions.

But just would like to add, C H may indeed develope a great string library, but one of the reasons why composers use many different library's is becuase there is an ingredient it has that another will not have, a bit like can't do with out that.

So i may indeed own OT string library which is a top brand library and i will find many things i like, but i will also reach for another library becuase i prefer the way it performs in certain ways.

I am not sure if any one developer can produce an all round library that we are pleased with every aspect about it, and a lot of developers already understand that there library is going to be layerd by at least two or three other library's there are even developers that encourage layering library's.

Tone and sound is a very funny thing, it's a bit like fashen, some will like it and some want, and that attitude will be with us until the day we die, some like skin tight jeans some don't, some like loose jeans some don't. 

We are just to different and complex for everyone to like or choose just one library hence our nature and servival instinct already moved us not to rely on just one library.


----------



## Ashermusic (Apr 15, 2017)

[QUOTE="novaburst, post: 4077001, member: 12149"

We are just too different and complex for everyone to like or choose just one library hence our nature and servival instinct already moved us not to rely on just one library.[/QUOTE]


Bingo.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 15, 2017)

trumpoz said:


> In reality this is why people have multiple libraries of the same section as they will have different strengths and weaknesses. My brass template is a combination of Hollywood Brass, VSL, Sample Modelling and Chris Hein Orchestral Brass and I have collected these over time. They have different strengths for different situations. For instance the VSL Cornet to me sounds terrible as a cornet, but for a lyrical trumpet sound above the stave it sounds fantastic to my ear. The combination of VSL Triple Horn, CHOB and EW 2 Horns makes for a lovely section. My trombone section is mainly Sample Modelling as they are an incredibly easy instrument for me to use (some eq and wrangling is needed to get them to sit in the mix).
> 
> If could justify the $ id buy LASS purely for the shorts. It would complement HS and VSL very well in my template.



I actually really do like LASS's full section patches. Apologies for not making my first post clear but it's the solo legato patches that offends me. So I'm actually in 100% agreement with you especially because you said "if i could justify the [$$$] I'd buy LASS purely for the shorts"


----------



## novaburst (Apr 15, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> it's the solo legato patches that offends



I find on many ensemble string library's it can be very difficult to find any good solos, at best you will need to purchase a separate solo violin, or violas, cello and can cost more than the ensemble library,

I have noticed this through out, when you think of it, it does make a little sense as all the players hired to perform the ensemble patch samples perhaps would have no solo experience and only have knowledge to play in groups.

The developer will need to hire a solo specialist to do any solos of premium standard hence the big cost of a solo library.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 15, 2017)

anthraxsnax said:


> Lass doesn't have soloists... it's first chair... the approach isn't that of a solo performer, but rather a section leader if you've ever performed as part of an ensemble it'll make more sense.
> 
> If your never been in any kind of ensemble it'll seem odd, but I guess the best way to think about it would be to imagine a quartet/quintet. The players wouldn't be going ham on decorative playing, as it wouldn't be cohesive



I know exactly what you're saying. It's not the decorative playing problem or that sort but, the tone of the first chair soloists. If you made the first chairs in LASS play as if they were in a quartet, you would still notice the extreme synthy-ness of the tone of each of them.



^ the players are playing quite decoratively imho.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 15, 2017)

besides, what really would be the difference between first chair/ soloist then if they're not the same? if you really want to hear just the "first chair" playing in your piece you would write "solo". Imho it should be the same thing. The quality should not be lowered any lower than "solo" just because it is used for "first chair" purpose


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 15, 2017)

anthraxsnax said:


> ??? What do you mean - what's the difference??
> 
> What's the difference between a lead guitarist of a progressive band and a rhythm guitarist of a progressive band?
> 
> ...




So your analogy is this: lead guitarists are like violin soloists while rhythm guitarists are like first chair violins?

To be concertmaster (first chair violinist) you have to also be a very very good soloist. The concertmaster should play his/her solo passages during a symphony as well and expressively as he/she plays when he/she is playing a concerto solo. But of course the concertos would be written to be much more technically difficult (usually)

First Chairs, yes of course they don't make up their own tempo but follow the conductor, but besides that, they do not play less expressively than concerto soloists, nor do they need less qualifications than the concerto soloists.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 15, 2017)

anthraxsnax said:


> You skipped a few key words in my analogy, so what was the point? I try to teach you and you're stopped by an analogy and all your attention went to that (while somehow missing the key component)
> 
> The requirement to be a rhythm guitarist of spawn of possession is higher than most bands' lead guitarist, but yet there is a rhythm guitarist...
> 
> ...



Yes first chair and soloist are different things but their ability to play should be the same thus in, sample libraries, one shouldn't sound more synthy than another in whatever different setting they play in although I get your point, one is better suited in a specific setting than another


----------



## Lotias (Apr 15, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> Yes first chair and soloist are different things but their ability to play should be the same thus in, sample libraries, one shouldn't sound more synthy than another in whatever different setting they play in although I get your point, one is better suited in a specific setting than another


Honestly, I'm not sure anyone has any clue what you mean by synthy anymore.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 15, 2017)

Lotias said:


> Honestly, I'm not sure anyone has any clue what you mean by synthy anymore.



Go Vsl's page, go to cello solo 2, click play on geisha's theme- synthy

Pull up first chair cello solo legato patch from LASS and play the range from c3~G4 -synthy

Play around and turn off the reverb with chris hein's solo trumpet, solo violin, not synthy


^ just my opinion


----------



## Lotias (Apr 15, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> Go Vsl's page, go to cello solo 2, click play on geisha's theme- synthy
> 
> Pull up first chair cello solo legato patch from LASS and play the range from c3~G4 -synthy
> 
> Play around and turn off the reverb with chris hein's solo trumpet, solo violin, not synthy


Not hearing it.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 15, 2017)

Lotias said:


> Not hearing it.



I kind of wish I had your ears.. life can be tough being someone that's not easily pleased


----------



## Lotias (Apr 15, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> I'm also a bit
> 
> 
> I kind of wish I had your ears.. life can be tough being someone that's not easily pleased


I just don't get what you're hearing where "synthy" would apply. If anything Chris Hein's violin sounds "synthy" to me. The Italian violin is a little better, but I don't really get it. At least, the demos outside of the MIDI recreations (the ones that have an accompanying video) are kinda bad sounding to me.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 15, 2017)

Lotias said:


> I just don't get what you're hearing where "synthy" would apply. If anything Chris Hein's violin sounds "synthy" to me. The Italian violin is a little better, but I don't really get it. At least, the demos outside of the MIDI recreations (the ones that have an accompanying video) are kinda bad sounding to me.



Maybe our ear's EQ's are unidentical so we hear it different. Hey if you like the sound of LASS first chairs, let me back off from criticizing its tone. Beauty is subjective


----------



## Lotias (Apr 15, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> Maybe our ear's EQ's are unidentical so we hear it different. Hey if you like the sound of LASS first chairs, let me back off from criticizing its tone. Beauty is subjective


I don't really like the _sound_, but they sound like first chairs to me. Especially LASS's first chair violins have some kind of resonance that doesn't sit well, but not "synthy."


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 15, 2017)

Lotias said:


> I don't really like the _sound_, but they sound like first chairs to me. Especially LASS's first chair violins have some kind of resonance that doesn't sit well, but not "synthy."



So would you say it's because of that fact that it's "first chair" that results in your not liking it? I like berlin's first chair's sound. Spitfire sacconi also sounds really nice to me but I don't own it so it's hard to say what it would be like when I actually had my hands on it

im talking about when they're on close mics as well


----------



## Lotias (Apr 15, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> So would you say it's because of that fact that it's "first chair" that results in your not liking it? I like berlin's first chair's sound. Spitfire sacconi also sounds really nice to me but I don't own it so it's hard to say what it would be like when I actually had my hands on it


No, I said it's because of the resonance on the violins that I'm not impressed with the sound of LASS's first chairs. The rest sounded _generally _fine, but not stunning. I hear many people have to EQ them to get them to sit right, so they're really not intended for solo work.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 15, 2017)

Lotias said:


> I don't really like the _sound_, but they sound like first chairs to me. Especially LASS's first chair violins have some kind of resonance that doesn't sit well, but not "synthy."



My definition of "synthy" is as if when I claim something to sound synthy, I meant that I did not need to listen to a mockup made with and featured with it for more than 1 time (and often times, only a quarter of the way through) to feel like it has been exposed to me: the fact that it is not played by a real player. Is my definition of "synthy" too far from everybody else's definition? Like wise, something that is not "synthy" is something that fools me completely until someone tells me that's actually a mockup, by my (possibly unique) definition


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 15, 2017)

anthraxsnax said:


> synthy is such a strange word... organs sound synthy...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'm actually pretty fond of Sample modelling's sound in general. I'm easily fooled by them. And yes I hear the same sine/saw wave I hear from the sibelius 6 playback when I listened some (and a lot of) VSL's demoes.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 15, 2017)

anthraxsnax said:


> well the sample modeling stuff forces you to CC everything... like it'll yell at you if it doesn't get expression pedal/BC/ect... if you're playing with sample modeling stuff theres tons of CCs = tons of movement... it's important with a sample library that you keep creating movement with what you can control, or you'll just sound like a collection of baked marcato's at various velocities...



I'm very well aware of the amount of deep programming that's needed for certain libraries.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 15, 2017)

anthraxsnax said:


> this was made with only first chair patches, and this specific video is what made me buy LASS.
> 
> with some good IR thrown on top of that - I'd be hardpressed to care if it was real players or not - sounds great




I've already mentioned or hinted that I like the shorts from LASS lol. The amount of shorts might have influenced me in my judgement of whether it's synthy or not. But I guess when the violins and cello did the small lengthed phrase legatoes in this video, sounded quite passable. Not a bad piece too.


----------



## Saxer (Apr 15, 2017)

Maybe you should think about replacing your "synthi" with "synthetic". Because everyone coming from the music production side uses the word "synthi" for a synthesizer (never for a sampler). And synthesizers can be very warm and expressive instruments. I remember my first synthesizer (a Korg MS20) as nostalgic and emotional as my first flute and saxophone. The MS20 had a monophonic pitch sensor input and I could even play it controlled by my flute when it got a pickup. And in school we had a study group of early nerds where we built a Formant Synthesizer out of a construction set and learned how to program it. My synthi heroes were mostly solo playing band musicians like Chick Corea, Jan Hammer, George Duke... extreme expressive playing guys! Nice times! That's my association of "synthi".


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 15, 2017)

Saxer said:


> Maybe you should thing about replacing your "synthi" with "synthetic". Because everyone coming from the music production side uses the word "synthi" for a synthesizer. And synthesizers can be very warm and expressive instruments. I remember my first synthesizer (a Korg MS20) as nostalgic and emotional as my first flute and saxophone. The MS20 had a monophonic pitch sensor input and I could even play it with my flute when it got a pickup. And in school we had a study group of early nerds where we built a Formant Synthesizer out of a construction set and learned how to program it. My synthi heroes were mostly solo playing band musicians like Chick Corea, Jan Hammer, George Duke... extreme expressive playing guys! Nice times! That's my association of "synthi".



I do actually come from the music production side as well. I attempted producing trance and edm for 5 years prior to getting into the midi mockup world. When I hear something sounding like a sibelius6 playback, am I not supposed to label it as synthy? Here's the other way around, some synthesizers like JP8000 can create string sounds taht don't sound synthy, only when they're playing slow chords though.

I also don't think there's that much of a big deal of difference between synthetic and synthy but sure I think I should start to use the word "synthetic" instead from now on, if it helps


----------



## Saxer (Apr 15, 2017)

Sibelius playback is a sampler too, no synth. I don't want to be nitpicking but I'd call it just "midi" when it comes to describe death computer playbacks. Maybe there are better definitions out there? Typical synthy music for me is Vangelis, Tangerine Dream, Kraftwerk...


ctsai89 said:


> I also don't think there's that much of a big deal of difference between synthetic and synthy but sure I think I should start to use the word "synthetic" instead from now on, if it helps


Don't know if it helps generally. But it would help me


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 15, 2017)

Saxer said:


> Sibelius playback is a sampler too, no synth. I don't want to be nitpicking but I'd call it just "midi" when it comes to describe death computer playbacks. Maybe there are better definitions out there? Typical synthy music for me is Vangelis, Tangerine Dream, Kraftwerk...



was it really a sampler though? I haven't used it for years and years but I remember it sounds like it was reproduced by synthesizers. And back then, i doubt sibelius's playback was using the same samples nowadays sibelius does.

This was all before I discovered a beautiful thing called the D.A.W., back in 2009


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 15, 2017)

anthraxsnax said:


> when I was in highschool and played around on Sibelius it was using samples...



ok well lol. Those were super synthy sounding samples. They sounded like they were reproduced by synthesizer. Whatever, semantics lol. SYNTHETIC <--- Let me use that from now on. Thanks.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 15, 2017)

anthraxsnax said:


> synthetic is a better choice.



I believe the both of you, thanks for helping me out finding the best choice of terms. That's one thing I'm usually bad at. English isn't my first language but I'm even worse at my own first language because the only time I would use it is with parents. I'm more fluent in music lol.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 15, 2017)

anthraxsnax said:


> you know, I had a FES from Norway for a drummer at the time and I got him hooked on theory, and the weird thing was after I had taught him a lot - one day I mentioned how weird it is that he thinks in his native tongue and he said "it depends... I think about music kind of half English half norweigan - since that's how I learned most of it"
> 
> language is an important tool... it's how we take an abstract idea and try to recreate that same abstract idea in someone elses head... so don't be too hard on yourself if it doesn't go as planned... different cultures/groups/language tends to constantly change... and a phrase commonly used here for one thing might mean something entirely different on another forum for instance...
> 
> that said, I'm getting some sleep



night


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 17, 2017)

> besides, what really would be the difference between first chair/ soloist then if they're not the same? if you really want to hear just the "first chair" playing in your piece you would write "solo". Imho it should be the same thing. The quality should not be lowered any lower than "solo" just because it is used for "first chair" purpose



The quality isn't lower, but a section playing approach is different from solo. It's like singing BG vocals rather than lead, although that analogy is an exaggeration.

That doesn't mean you can't use LASS first chairs as solo strings, but it's part of the whole layered section concept behind the library. I disagree that it sounds synthy, as a matter of fact.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 17, 2017)

Also, the first chairs sound good layered with other libraries.


----------



## ctsai89 (Apr 17, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The quality isn't lower, but a section playing approach is different from solo. It's like singing BG vocals rather than lead, although that analogy is an exaggeration.
> 
> That doesn't mean you can't use LASS first chairs as solo strings, but it's part of the whole layered section concept behind the library. I disagree that it sounds synthy, as a matter of fact.



Would you agree that it sounds "synthetic" though?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 17, 2017)

No, I wouldn't.


----------

