# Excellent read on mixing ITB



## RiffWraith (Feb 18, 2012)

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/7578109-post9.html

I normally dont go around quoting GS posts, but this one I figured worthy of mention. It in a way echoes what John Rodd has said here once or twice. And it explains alot. Those of you who constantly strive to make your ITB mixes better (and I am among you) should read what Michael says, and_ try to understand it_.

Cheers.


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## synergy543 (Feb 18, 2012)

His comment about the subtle effects of cumulative compression and EQ with wide Q was interesting.

Thanks for sharing Riff.


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## John Rodd (Feb 18, 2012)

RiffWraith @ Sat Feb 18 said:


> http://www.gearslutz.com/board/7578109-post9.html
> 
> I normally dont go around quoting GS posts, but this one I figured worthy of mention. It in a way echoes what John Rodd has said here once or twice. And it explains alot. Those of you who constantly strive to make your ITB mixes better (and I am among you) should read what Michael says, and_ try to understand it_.
> 
> Cheers.



Heya

His post was cool..... and some good thoughts... but I would add to it that this is the VI Control, and I think his post is referring more to rock than virtual...... especially not virtual orchestras. 

I know VI control folks do all sorts of music.... but there seems to be an emphasis on virtual orchestral here....

I would caution composers who are mixing their own virtual orchestral compositions to not go too crazy with compression. It can really suck the life out of a virtual orchestral mix quickly..... I'd focus on corrective EQ, great sounding reverb(s) and a good mix.  

John


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Feb 19, 2012)

John I'd love to know a couple of guidelines you'd love to share that you've learned through the ages.... things you do on a thick piece with full orchestra blaring, along with epic drums etc.

Do you put a high pass on violins & violas etc. I find myself doing that as well as cutting out some low end on the reverb. 

Whats your reverb setup look like? I bus everything over to QL Space nowadays with one handling the Early Reflections and the other the tails. Again every mix is different...just like every composition is different, however through ages we have establish music theory as "guidelines" like never to have Perfect 5ths or Octaves. These "rules" can and do get broken depending on the piece but just like Composing has guidelines...so does Mixing.


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## John Rodd (Feb 19, 2012)

Jeffrey Peterson @ Sun Feb 19 said:


> John I'd love to know a couple of guidelines you'd love to share that you've learned through the ages.... things you do on a thick piece with full orchestra blaring, along with epic drums etc.
> 
> Do you put a high pass on violins & violas etc. I find myself doing that as well as cutting out some low end on the reverb.
> 
> Whats your reverb setup look like? I bus everything over to QL Space nowadays with one handling the Early Reflections and the other the tails. Again every mix is different...just like every composition is different, however through ages we have establish music theory as "guidelines" like never to have Perfect 5ths or Octaves. These "rules" can and do get broken depending on the piece but just like Composing has guidelines...so does Mixing.



Heya

Truth is - no guidelines for me. No rules. I just listen, and do what I think is right..... (and keep listening, so I'll change what I did... if it turns out to be the wrong thing)

Seriously.

Every mix is 100% different.  

That is one of the reasons I love what I do. Each recording & mixing & mastering session is always so different.

Oh yeah - that, and the cool people I get to work with, and the cool music I get to listen to all the time. :mrgreen: 

Sorry to not have any tips... other than.... listen, and learn how to listen better. :wink:


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## jamwerks (Feb 19, 2012)

John, what couple of HW comps would you suggest for virtual orchestra mixes?


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## Dietz (Feb 19, 2012)

John Rodd @ Sun Feb 19 said:


> [...]
> 
> Seriously.
> 
> ...



I couldn't agree more! That's why its close to impossible to make really meaningful presets for complex mixing scenarios.



John Rodd @ Sun Feb 19 said:


> [...]
> I would caution composers who are mixing their own virtual orchestral compositions to not go too crazy with compression. It can really suck the life out of a virtual orchestral mix quickly..... I'd focus on corrective EQ, great sounding reverb(s) and a good mix.
> 
> John



I think that I understand the point you're trying to make. Still I'm convinced that smooth compression with low ratios and some soft saturation can help virtual instruments (especially sampled ones) _a lot_ to gain that certain kind of sought-after glue and coherence. For me, proper compression adds emotionality.

Kind regards,

/Dietz


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## John Rodd (Feb 19, 2012)

jamwerks @ Sun Feb 19 said:


> John, what couple of HW comps would you suggest for virtual orchestra mixes?



This is my favorite hardware compressor for virtual orchestra mixing.... by a wide margin

http://www.cranesong.com/products/stc8/index.html

Unfortunately it is very expensive, and a bit tricky to figure out. For these reasons I would not suggest it for most composers.

but the sound is amazing. I love mine. 8)


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## wst3 (Feb 19, 2012)

a couple other thoughts... I believe (correct me as required) that John does recording, mixing, and mastering (stolen from his sig<G>), and not composing, arranging. and orchestrating for his livelihood.

This puts him in a slightly different position than many here, in terms of both his workflow and his gear requirements (the mastering part especially.)

I think it's great that he makes a differentiation!

If you are primarily a composer/arranger you have one set of requirements, that is, you need your resulting work to sound good enough for listeners who probably (hopefully?) have some serious listening chops - and they are listening (again hopefully) to the composition or arrangement, not the mix. (Yes, I know, the two are becoming more and more entangled - not to the benefit of anyone!)

If you are mixing and/or mastering your goal is entirely different - your product will be heard by the masses, and so it needs to be as good as it can be, no excuses. Which means you need the Cranesong or the Distressor, and probably more than one of each. And you need a TC reverb, and a Lexicon reverb, and you might also need the Bricasti.

So where does that leave those who do both?

In a bit of a jam<G>...

You need to do better than just a mock-up, you need to create a finished product, but you may not have the budget to have it mixed outside your studio.

The good news is that you can get the gear you need, and you don't need mountains of it, you can do quite a bit with plug-ins as well.

The bad news is that both the hardware and the plug-ins you need to play at that level will take a bite out of your profits for a while. So you have to plan accordingly.

I will respectfully disagree with John on one minor point - if you are buying hardware processors because your finished product needs to be that good then do not go cheap! You'll only end up losing money in the long run.

It is no longer a matter of getting the best you can afford, you have to wait till you can afford the best.

While you are saving your pennies use high end plug-ins to learn more about the processing.

As an example, I've used the Urei 1176, LA-4, and the dBx 160 since the early 1980s, and I think that the UAD plug-in versions are very realistic. Idealized? Oh yeah, none of the units I used sounded exactly like the software versions, but it's like they could have - if that makes sense.

And the dBX is probably the closest of the bunch - the first time I tried it I was transported back in time, it sounded that good.

So you can use these tools to craft great mixes, and you can learn a lot about the hardware that they emulate... not a bad deal.

Then, when your clients demand - and deserve<G> - the real deal hardware you'll be ready.

Another way to look at it perhaps - if you could write for a real orchestra you probably would. But many of you can get amazingly close, certainly close enough for the applications, using sample libraries. Something to think about...


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## John Rodd (Feb 19, 2012)

wst3 @ Sun Feb 19 said:


> ....... I will respectfully disagree with John on one minor point - if you are buying hardware processors because your finished product needs to be that good then do not go cheap! You'll only end up losing money in the long run........



to clarify - I did NOT say buy cheap hardware.... I said *before you buy top quality hardware - think about maybe buying some additional sample libraries instead.*

as a handful of additional good sample libraries MIGHT improve your sound more than one great piece of hardware.

:wink: 

and yes - I record, mix and master music.... I do not compose, orchestrate etc.

John


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## germancomponist (Feb 19, 2012)

John, 

I always use my HW Klark Compressor/Limiter/Expander DN 500 and am very happy with my results.

Have u ever used it too?


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## John Rodd (Feb 19, 2012)

germancomponist @ Sun Feb 19 said:


> John,
> 
> I always use my HW Klark Compressor/Limiter/Expander DN 500 and am very happy with my results.
> 
> Have u ever used it too?



nope. never seen one anywhere.


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## jamwerks (Feb 19, 2012)

If you get a chance to try the new Portico II bus comp, share your thoughts with us !


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## wst3 (Feb 19, 2012)

John Rodd @ Sun Feb 19 said:


> to clarify - I did NOT say buy cheap hardware.... I said *before you buy top quality hardware - think about maybe buying some additional sample libraries instead.*



My bad - I over-reacted a bit, as I have known many folks (not me of course<G>) who have grabbed low end gear thinking that it would hold them over till they could get the better gear - and well, that just never works!

You did indeed make a really good suggestion, and I butchered the interpretation!



John Rodd said:


> as a handful of additional good sample libraries MIGHT improve your sound more than one great piece of hardware.



Agreed... for two reasons:
1) it really doesn't matter how good your processing gear is if the source isn't outstanding to start with. And here again I do make the distinction between a mock-up, which exists to present a musical idea, and a finished track, which exists for all listeners.

2) even if the source material is outstanding, you also need to know why you would use a compressor, and how - not sure which is more important - and unless you are working to become a great mixer that may not be the best use of your time.



John Rodd said:


> and yes - I record, mix and master music.... I do not compose, orchestrate etc.



and yet no one holds that against you<G>!!!


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## John Rodd (Feb 19, 2012)

jamwerks @ Sun Feb 19 said:


> If you get a chance to try the new Portico II bus comp, share your thoughts with us !



Will do 

It is neat that it incorporates their Stereo Field Editor. I own one of those and had it modified by the Rupert Neve team for some advanced mastering techniques.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/5014StereoH

but I'll add that there are lots of great tools in the world.... I just know and own a few of them. :wink:


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Feb 21, 2012)

John Rodd @ Sun Feb 19 said:


> Jeffrey Peterson @ Sun Feb 19 said:
> 
> 
> > John I'd love to know a couple of guidelines you'd love to share that you've learned through the ages.... things you do on a thick piece with full orchestra blaring, along with epic drums etc.
> ...



You don't want to share guidelines or you don't know any mixing guidelines? Experienced engineers have loads of guidelines...just google it. I mistook you, apologies.


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## Dietz (Feb 22, 2012)

Reading between the lines, I think John Rodd was just paraphrasing the old audio engineering proverb "It's the ear, not the gear".


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## John Rodd (Feb 23, 2012)

Jeffrey Peterson @ Sun Feb 19 said:


> John I'd love to know a couple of guidelines you'd love to share that you've learned through the ages.... things you do on a thick piece with full orchestra blaring, along with epic drums etc.
> 
> Do you put a high pass on violins & violas etc. I find myself doing that as well as cutting out some low end on the reverb.
> 
> Whats your reverb setup look like? I bus everything over to QL Space nowadays with one handling the Early Reflections and the other the tails. Again every mix is different...just like every composition is different, however through ages we have establish music theory as "guidelines" like never to have Perfect 5ths or Octaves. These "rules" can and do get broken depending on the piece but just like Composing has guidelines...so does Mixing.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(John Rodd wrote)
Heya

Truth is - no guidelines for me. No rules. I just listen, and do what I think is right..... (and keep listening, so I'll change what I did... if it turns out to be the wrong thing)

Seriously.

Every mix is 100% different.  

That is one of the reasons I love what I do. Each recording & mixing & mastering session is always so different.

Oh yeah - that, and the cool people I get to work with, and the cool music I get to listen to all the time. :mrgreen: 

Sorry to not have any tips... other than.... listen, and learn how to listen better. :wink:[/quote]

~~~~~~~~~~~
(Jeffrey Peterson wrote)

You don't want to share guidelines or you don't know any mixing guidelines? Experienced engineers have loads of guidelines...just google it. I mistook you, apologies.[/quote]

~~~~~~~~~~~

Hey Jeffrey Peterson

Wow. Just wow. I’m almost at a loss for words.

Part of me wants to just ignore your rude comment, but the helpful part of me wants to try once again to explain my creative process.... perhaps not just for you, but for other people who would read this thread.

To specifically answer your original questions:

*(you) .... things you do on a thick piece with full orchestra blaring, along with epic drums etc.*
I make literally hundreds of small mix changes and adjustments to make it all work.... often doubling back to make a few mix changes to adjust things I did early on, that are no longer working the right way for that specific mix ..... so NO GUIDELINE HERE.

*(you) Do you put a high pass on violins & violas (?)*
Sometimes yes, but sometimes no.... so NO GUIDELINE HERE.

*(you) Whats your reverb setup look like?*
Every mix will have different reverbs used with different settings on each of them..... so NO GUIDELINE HERE.

*Get the picture? *

*(you) Experienced engineers have loads of guidelines...*

If you think I’m inexperienced - please just look at my credits (linked on my website)

and

I think music mixing is a lot like being a sculptor. A sculptor takes the raw materials, and decides what to cut away, and what to accent. What things to add some texture to, and what things to polish. Would you say that experienced sculptors have guidelines? I don’t think so... other than make it beautiful (or edgy, or serene, or lush, or whatever....)

So Mr. Jeffrey Peterson - the bottom line is - this is how I work. This is how I mix. If you can’t understand it, no amount of explaining on my end will change that. You asked me a question, and I gave you my honest answer. 

You seem pretty good with Google - if you want some mix guidelines from other mixers - then go right ahead. You asked ME how I mix, and I answered the question. Please don’t be so rude to me in the future. 

John


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Feb 23, 2012)

I apologize John.

Mixing is something that every composer could do a little better, and since its not the main focus of our day jobs, it is a big part of the result. Guidelines from someone who specializes in mixing is always welcome to non-mixers, however I respect your opinion when you say there are no guidelines. 

We'll just agree to disagree because I believe there are mixing guidelines. Variable "starting points".

I believe rolling off the bass of all instruments except the chosen "bass star" of the piece is a guideline....a starting point. Something that is not "set in stone" but is well used in the mixing community. Its a guideline. Something to point the composer in the right direction. I was looking for more advance guidelines than this but of course no artist has to share anything of his work that he doesn't want to. 

I did insinuate something that your not and again I apologize.

-Jeffrey


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## gsilbers (Feb 23, 2012)

if anyone is interested in GUIDELINES, which im guessing its for learning purposes....

maybe check out 

www.groove3.com

there are several mixing tutorials. 
there is one called mixing in pro tools.
its rock oriented but the underline basics work in all genres.
there ar e other tutorials as well.


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Feb 24, 2012)

why would we want to know basic rock mixing guidelines?

My question was for more advanced techniques. But yes if anyone just bought their first new DAW and doesn't know 200Hz from 2kHz then by all means go to groove3.


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## wst3 (Feb 24, 2012)

two more cents worth - though I do not have John's track record...

First - unless you are mixing dialog and SFX I don't think there is a big difference between mixing rock and roll and an orchestra. The objective remains the same, and so too do the techniques.

There are three distinct phases of any recording, tracking, mixing, and mastering. These are best treated independently, and in my humble opinion, the last part should be farmed out completely, but that's another topic.

For composers, there are additional stages that precede, at least philosophically, tracking - and these would be composing and arranging or orchestrating.

Many of us would love to treat each stage independently, but the realities of deadlines and workflow can meld composition, arrangement, and tracking, maybe even mixing.

My first guideline would be to keep them separate, at least in your mind. Focus on one element at a time. This has saved my bacon many times!

I step back and focus on the composition, or the arrangement, and don't fret over the production. In my last studio I configured the space to that my workspace for composition and arrangement was separate from my mix position, and in fact the monitors were off to my right, so I wasn't tempted to worry about the mix - in fact I couldn't worry about the mix without turning around to face the monitors<G>!

I'm not really sure from your posts whether you are a composer who mixes, or a mixer who composes, but it seems like the former, so I think this advice could be of value.

The next step is tracking - and I think a lot of us get hung up on making mixing decisions while tracking - committing the individual parts to tape... I mean bits and bytes<G>.

The funny thing is, for me at least, my best mixes result from exactly that - committing decisions, printing effects, etc. This is probably because I grew up with 4, and then 8 tape tracks, and a huge noise penalty for bouncing down. So decisions tended to be made earlier instead of later.

What you give up in flexibility you make up in clarity. Once you've decided to compress the bass and drums... and you do it then it helps inform the decisions that follow.

So for me it's a hybrid approach - I print stuff early, but I keep the raw tracks so that I could, if I had to, make additional changes. That safety net lets me take chances I'd probably not have taken 25 years ago when working with tape.

Which, finally, gets us to mixing...

John's point, that no two projects are alike, is spot on. But you do have to start somewhere... though even that can change from project to project.

But if i were giving guidelines to a student they'd probably look something like this...

General rules:
1) filters should cut, boosting tends to create mud. If you need to emphasize the 2kHz octave for the strings do so by reducing that band for other tracks.
2) dynamics processing should lean towards limiting unless you are after a specific effect. Compression, for me, is best applied during tracking - and I use it to sculpt the sound apart from the mix, or maybe prior to the mix is a better way to say it.
3) multi-band compression is your friend, and your best friend is parallel compression. I always (ok, almost always) have the tracks fed to the 2-mix without compression!
4) if there are rules or guidelines for equalization frequencies I never learned them. Other than the cut before boost mentioned earlier I can't think of any useful guidelines.
5) more an aside than guideline - in the old days the biggest chunk of processing - compression and equalization - was accomplished through microphone selection and placement. I think this informs my current workflow.
6) I think that it is easier to get the mix started without a lot of delay or reverb or flanging or whatever... except that I use delay extensively as an effect, but I will bypass all the delays while establishing the mix, and then add them back in one at a time.
7) I apply compression and equalization to the delay feeds separately, and generally after the effect itself.
8) I like to start with a 2-mix reverb, the reverb I expect to pull it all together, and then I add reverb to tracks if necessary.

And I'm afraid that's the best I can do for guidelines... which isn't much is it!

Best guideline remains treat each phase of the process as independent, at least in your mind. Focus on the task at hand. I think you'll be surprised at how this affects your final mix!


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## gsilbers (Feb 24, 2012)

Jeffrey Peterson @ Fri Feb 24 said:


> why would we want to know basic rock mixing guidelines?
> 
> My question was for more advanced techniques. But yes if anyone just bought their first new DAW and doesn't know 200Hz from 2kHz then by all means go to groove3.



ok. 

here is an advance technique :

-shut the fuk up and try to learn something. there is always something you can learn. 

-be polite and know that other have different opinions

-no one wants to work with someone with a childish attitude. 

-if someone with many professional credits has some insights , just try to learn from it. & if he/she says thereis no guidelines ... then , maybe there is really no guidelines. 

-ask the right questions.
guidelines and technique are too broad. 
maybe asking jon rodd about how he used his several hardware reverbs in his latest movie can yeild a better understanding of one of his tecniques. 

-stop trolling and learn your own guidlines.


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## John Rodd (Feb 24, 2012)

I want to be clear:

Sure... some people have mixing (or mastering, or recording) guidelines. 

I don't have guidelines - other than make it sound really good, and make the client(s) happy. 8) 

(I never said "there are no such thing as mixing guidelines")

John


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## gsilbers (Feb 24, 2012)

oops.. 

well.. i mean in a way that its related to the last
statement i said about wide broad questions. 

(also, i think almost every pro engineer will say the same thing... at least in my experience when i worked or talked to pro engineers)

cause guidelines are the ones youll see in intro audio engeneering. the rest imo, are specific to individual styles and project dependant. 
cause a sample orhcestra will requiere extremely different techniques than a well recorded orchestra. and commercial pop will have a whole set of new specific techniques , tricks and uses of the hunderds of avalable tools. 
and someone can be a pro mixer for rock and apply their style into an orchestra mixing and it might work for a specific project... or not. 
depends. 



but in general.. the type of responses in this thread are the ones you would find at gearlsutz. trolling away into nonesense and bad vibes.


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Feb 24, 2012)

gsilbers @ Fri Feb 24 said:


> ok.
> 
> here is an advance technique :
> 
> ...




You have got to be kidding. The only one making this into a typical gearslut thread is you. Your getting personal and using profanity.

John and I have already stated that he doesn't have guidelines...that is fine and over with. Then all of a sudden you get personal.

Calm down and let the thread continue. wst3 had some great thoughts!


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