# Poll: Berlin Strings vs Spitfire (playability and sound)



## Vik (Aug 22, 2015)

There were some comparisons on this forum around when Mural and Berlin Strings were launched. Since then, both have been updated and additional volumes have been released from both companies. I ended up with Mural, and based on my sound preferences (based on demos; I don't have Berlin Strings), that was a good choice. But based on playability, user friendliness and how advanced the 'adaptive legato' solutions are, Berlin Strings seem to be better than in Mural. Again - this is based on actually using Mural - but only watching Berlin Strings demos... not a fair comparison. Hence this thread. 

I'm very impressed with the new, expanded adaptive legato in the new solo instruments from Orchestral Tools, and – based on things I've heard and seen eg on YouTube, the Berlin Strings library is also very good at automatically switching between various articulations on the fly, and (important!) this includes switching between the various legato types and all other articulations. Some of this can be done by using combination presets in Mural, or by editing things after they have been recorded. I haven't heard the new Mural combination patches, but from what I already own (M1 and M2), I haven't been able to recreate what I have seen and heard in eg one of the initial Berlin demos.

So - to those of you who own or have compared the two... what are your opinions?
There are two questions in there, so you can select two reply options in the poll.


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## wpc982 (Aug 22, 2015)

You'll probably find few who have both! I'm happy with Berlin Strings, except the Double Basses must have been a poor personality match (probably only two players, but they manage to be out of tune with each other most of the time). As to adaptive legato etc, the BS legato works pretty well and does not cause large rhythmic displacements; on the other hand, the new Nocturne legato is like some of the worst offenders in that department: takes a very large amount of adjustment to get a legato rhythmic motive to line up with other voices.


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## timtom (Aug 22, 2015)

We also have both and its a little bit like comparing two nice car brands. It doesn't matter which one you drive you will probably have a big smile on your face while driving them both ;o)

Both are excellent libraries and depending on the musical style or way of writing or sound you will sometimes prefer the one or the other of the two or sometimes even experiment and mix them. To have both libraries is more of a luxury and if you ask me. One of them will do the job perfectly fine and at the end its really about the sound you want to achieve and therefore i would just listen to the demos and walkthrough videos and decide yourself which grabs more your taste and attention....and if you can't decide which one and have some coins laying around then just take both ;o)

one more thing to add: i think the Berlin Capsule and their expanded adaptive legato leads the way at the moment but i guess it won't be long until other companies adapt their system as well.... on the other hand Mural (as most of the SF Libs) is less demanding in the Computer compared to the Berlin Series.


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## maxime77 (Aug 22, 2015)

I've got both as well, and to me Mural is much better. It's got the ease of use of Cinematic Strings (switch between articulations & use the different mic positions easily) and a sound that I can't find in any other library. It doesn't really need reverb because of the hall it was recorded in, and out-of-the-box, you can get the sound of soundtracks such as Promised Land (close sounding), and Harry Potter & the Half Blood Prince, which were both recorded at AIR Lyndhurst.


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## Vik (Aug 22, 2015)

maxime77 said:


> switch between articulations & use the different mic positions easily


And... if you want to switch between one of the legato patches, which are in it's own preset, and one of the artics that are in the Core Palette?


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## babylonwaves (Aug 22, 2015)

Vik said:


> And... if you want to switch between one of the legato patches, which are in it's own preset, and one of the artics that are in the Core Palette?


if you open the core/deco/legato pallet in one kontakt instance and make them use the same MIDI channel, it will behave like one instrument (note: this works with UACC switching, didn't try with the other methods).


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## Vik (Aug 22, 2015)

babylonwaves said:


> if you open the core/deco/legato pallet in one kontakt instance and make them use the same MIDI channel, it will behave like one instrument


Sure. But I'd like to have a much more 'adaptive' solution. And regarding the combination presets, there's a lot of room for improvement there as well. It's easy to imagine a lot of possible presets which moves eg. from normal Longs to Sul Tasto. Likewise, 'unrealistic' (but in some contexts useful crossfades) between Longs and Flautando would also be great - and so on. It would also be great to have legato versions of most of or all the relevant articulations. Maybe Mural 3 solves some of this, and maybe there will be improvements in the future. But – what happens in the beginning of this Berlin demo is AFAIK not possible to get straight out of the box, in Mural:


Likewise, this wasn't possible in the Mural 1 & 2 combo either:  

But – I should probably keep my mouth shut until there's a demo of the new combo patches which includes Mural 3.  I did look at the walkthrough and playthrough for Mural 3, and while I skipped a few seconds here and there (because I know Spitfire is brilliant at making presets which covers one articulation at a time), I don't think there was any demonstration of new combos which included the new Marcato Attacks (are they implemented in the Legato presets also?). I also wonder if there is some integration between the new Rachmaninoff longs and legato transitions.

Mural, 2 and 3 may all be great products if one doesn't expect presets *which include all the needed dynamics and legato transitions which seem to come with Berlin*. I really hope I'm wrong in most of this, because I have already invested in two Mural volumes.

And - before someone says that one cannot expect a combination of legato and marcato pacthes from Mural because it won't be able to do that until volume 4 or 5... I kind of agree. OTOH, I'd rather have a library for one or two instruments now - which I can use fully, than a number of instruments which lacks certain samples and some scripting for the first few years of it's existence (maybe Mural will support all this in another year or two).

At the same time - Mural seems (to me) so much better if one needs gentle string sounds (and I do): True Con Sords, great Sul Tasto/Flautando and so on.


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## prodigalson (Aug 22, 2015)

> I also wonder if there is some integration between the new Rachmaninoff longs and legato transitions.



I believe Paul mentions in his walkthrough that the Legato sul G (sul C) patches transition to the Rachmaninoff longs. Not sure if it's used as an extra layer in any other legato patch. 

Personally, I have both and I enjoy the transparency and lightness of BS. It can definitely be more nimble than Mural. But for me, if it's a symphonic sound I want, Mural has no contender. It just has a slightly different workflow IMO but one which is in no way restrictive. 

The only major drawback to Mural right now over BS is they didn't release fast legato in the latest volume 3. That was a huge oversight IMO and very disappointing. They're clearly out to ensure people need to buy Vol. 4. which is frustrating. But other than that, the sound and detail of Mural is unparalleled.


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## prodigalson (Aug 22, 2015)

I also just noticed that you included Sable in this comparison and IMO in terms of detail, sound, playability, scripting etc. Sable kills Berlin Strings and Mural. Especially with the latest updates to the scripting. 

Sable is amazing.


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## Vik (Aug 22, 2015)

prodigalson said:


> if it's a symphonic sound I want, Mural has no contender.


 That's my feeling too. Ideally, I guess I'd like to have something between Mural and Sable in size, with the sound of Spitfire but with the playability of BS. 



> It just has a slightly different workflow IMO but one which is in no way restrictive.


The lack of divisi is a restriction for me... the other restrictions is that for me, still being a Logic user (remember Logic has no proper articulation control, expression maps, decent automation of articulations, the articulation ID solution can't be sent to 3rd part plugins, MIDI Draw has has only one lane etc etc) are all the steps needed to get things done.


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## prodigalson (Aug 22, 2015)

Right, Mural has no divisi, they intend Sable for that...

But neither does Berlin Strings, right?


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## maxime77 (Aug 22, 2015)

prodigalson said:


> Right, Mural has no divisi, they intend Sable for that...
> 
> But neither does Berlin Strings, right?



They added some divisi articulations in Mural vol. 3. as they show in the http://www.spitfireaudio.com/bml-310-mural-3 (walkthrough video).


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## prodigalson (Aug 22, 2015)

That's a full section articulation with half the desks playing con sordino and the other half normale. It's a wonderful, useful articulation, but only divisi in one context. It still has a full complement of players so is hardly divisi in any practical way


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## tomaslobosk (Aug 22, 2015)

Sound wise, IMO Mural is the best, it has that amazing non-hollywood tone that you hear in some of the best Deutsche Grammophon's recordings.
On the other hand, BST has that really good hollywood tone, and I just love how Hendrik scripts his libraries, however, I can't imagine using this library in my productions... Samples were denoised, specially short articulations, so they lack that bow strike sound, and that mono noise mic didn't work for me. I just love the natural beauty of samples.


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## Vik (Aug 23, 2015)

prodigalson said:


> I also just noticed that you included Sable in this comparison and IMO in terms of detail, sound, playability, scripting etc. Sable kills Berlin Strings and Mural. Especially with the latest updates to the scripting.
> 
> Sable is amazing.


Sable is more mature than Mural and Berlin, and some people may prefer Sable over Mural for that reason alone. IMO it would be wrong to limit the comparison to BS and Mural.


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## samphony (Aug 23, 2015)

I bought the sable bundle the day it was announced and man it did evolve! I prefer sable and layer in Albion 1-3 if needed although I also bought Mural Vol 1.


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## TintoL (Aug 23, 2015)

+1 to Sable. It simply doesn't compare to any of the libraries here. It's just so detailed and the programming completely open so you can adapt it to your playing. Similarly to VSL it's flexible, but, you have to put work on it.

But the sound, the sound of sable has no comparison. Just compare the simple run patch of sable to any library including orchestral tools runs, and sable kills every other with it's realistic sound.
The reason I think sable is in the shadows of mural is because people relate sable to baroque stile composition and people want to compose trailer epic stuff, I don't know.

Also, I don't understand the obsession with playability. At the end you have to program, because there is no way you can get the expressiveness of a real violin on a keyboard . It will simply not happen. If it does, I guess we'll say goodbye to the real orchestra.

Just compare any VSL solo string demo to any other library (including spitfire solo strings) and see what programming can do.


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## Vik (Aug 24, 2015)

TintoL said:


> +1 to Sable. It simply doesn't compare to any of the libraries here. It's just so detailed and the programming completely open so you can adapt it to your playing. Similarly to VSL it's flexible, but, you have to put work on it.



One needs to put work into any library, but that doesn't mean that libraries that needs less work (in some cases, a lot less) than others are preferable.



> Also, I don't understand the obsession with playability. At the end you have to program, because there is no way you can get the expressiveness of a real violin on a keyboard .


Obsession? 
Here's how I see it... I've spent endless hours of work with tweaking, using known or relatively unknown ways to get to the results I want - for years. And I don't like to admit this - but I've often spent this time in the midst of working on a musical idea I liked, in the midst of what originally was plain "inspiration", whatever that is. And - believe it or not - that part is very important for some of us: we don't want to get lost in programming when the impulse was to just... compose. I know for sure that many composers have experienced exactly that, and this has been a dilemma since long before great orchestral libraries existed. I've read tons of manuals and wasted a lot of time on finding solutions in Logic's Transform and Environment windows in sessions which actually started out with only focussing on music.

I believe that the reason both Spitfire, Orchestral tools and many others actually do invest a lot of time on scripting is that they know we'd rather have brilliant sounds and great scripting rather than just good sounding libraries. That's actually part of what we pay for. So - even if one always have to tweak adjust things, a library which needs as little as possible of that is preferable. I don't think this has anything to do with "obsession".  If the programmers and product designers behind the DAWs and libs we use had lost as much time on tweaking as some of us has, I'm sure they'd focus more on making 'transparent' tools.

Unfortunately, even if they have been developed over many years know, I still don't feel as the Spitfire libs and Logic Pro X are as transparent as they could and should have been.


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## EvilDragon (Aug 24, 2015)

Vik said:


> I still don't feel as the Spitfire libs and Logic Pro X are as transparent as they could and should have been.



Can't blame Spitfire on Logic's shortcomings, now, can you? Or what do you mean by "transparent", here?


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## Vik (Aug 24, 2015)

EvilDragon said:


> Can't blame Spitfire on Logic's shortcomings, now, can you? Or what do you mean by "transparent", here?


Of course not - I'm just trying to explain why it's extra frustrating to deal with. Even if we ignore Logic's shortcomings in this area, there's still a lot to be desired from the Spitfire scripting, eg with reference to eg what was shown in the first YouTube video above. Even with Cubase+Spitfire, one wouldn't be able to produce such a complex combination of articulations by simple pressing record and play something... right?


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## EvilDragon (Aug 24, 2015)

With Sable, that adaptive legato is definitely possible and works just fine (and sounds great) out of the box. Mural doesn't yet have fast legato recorded so it lacks there, but I'm quite sure when all Mural volumes are complete, it's going to be just as great as Sable is.


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## Vik (Aug 24, 2015)

By 'transparent' I mean that if we have musical idea, there should be as few tech/programming/coding/learning processes involved - and that's valid for both the DAW and for Kontakt and for the programming done by the library makers.


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## maxime77 (Aug 24, 2015)

TintoL said:


> Also, I don't understand the obsession with playability. At the end you have to program, because there is no way you can get the expressiveness of a real violin on a keyboard . It will simply not happen. If it does, I guess we'll say goodbye to the real orchestra.
> 
> Just compare any VSL solo string demo to any other library (including spitfire solo strings) and see what programming can do.



I totally agree with what you say about the playability. People tend to forget that these libraries aren't designed to be used live, but with a lot of programming to make it sound good.


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## Vik (Aug 24, 2015)

EvilDragon said:


> With Sable, that adaptive legato is definitely possible and works just fine (and sounds great) out of the box. Mural doesn't yet have fast legato recorded so it lacks there, but I'm quite sure when all Mural volumes are complete, it's going to be just as great as Sable is.


That's possible... are there any demos out there which demonstrates that - which uses the same kind of arctic combinations that is used in the first YT-clip above? If that's possible, I should never have started with Mural...


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## EvilDragon (Aug 24, 2015)

Vik said:


> By 'transparent' I mean that if we have musical idea, there should be as few tech/programming/coding/learning processes involved - and that's valid for both the DAW and for Kontakt and for the programming done by the library makers.



Fair enough. Might be good to see Blake's live stream videos where he does stuff quite fast, and uses a "non-standard" DAW (FL Studio) to shell out things pretty quickly (esp. since he doesn't play it in but just piano rolls it). It doesn't really involve a lot of techy stuff. Just plugging in notes and modwheel data... Anything else is for further intricacies. And his mockups/orchestrations sound pretty darn great.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQOm3j7QTQqAJVCyiCNOXBA


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## Vik (Aug 24, 2015)

maxime77 said:


> these libraries aren't designed to be used live


Still - a lot of composers still prefer good old playing when they have an idea, 'live' in front of their computer.


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## Vik (Aug 24, 2015)

EvilDragon said:


> Blake's live stream videos where he does stuff quite fast, and uses a "non-standard" DAW (FL Studio) to shell out things pretty quickly


Yes, but he had to create a plugin for FL in order to do that. For starters, Logic's built in Articulation-ID solution doesn't even talk to the outside world (3rd part products), and again: even with Cubase which has had Expression Maps for a long time, working with Mural means more work than working with Berlin (in terms of scripting and the option just enter an idea by plating it.


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## EvilDragon (Aug 24, 2015)

You're not forced to use expression maps, really...

How does Andy B do all his wonderful demos? He just plays them all in! A couple of passes (per instrument), some MW riding and he's done. Obviously not a lot of techy knowledge needed there. Just great chops.

So I'd say nothing is really "missing" in SF's scripting. Not to mention that OT's products seem to consume more CPU than Spitfire (and I have some insight into why is that, but I'm not supposed to share it)... That's not an unimportant fact.


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## maxime77 (Aug 24, 2015)

Vik said:


> Still - a lot of composers still prefer good old playing when they have an idea, 'live' in front of their computer.



Of course libraries that sound good "live" are more inspiring. But what you're saying is that you want them to sound as good as finished stuff without any programming. IMO, modern libraries sound good enough live to be inspiring, and they sound even better & realistic after programming.


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## EvilDragon (Aug 24, 2015)

maxime77 said:


> Of course libraries that sound good "live" are more inspiring. But what you're saying is that you want them to sound as good as finished stuff without any programming. IMO, they sound good enough live to be inspiring, and they sound even better & realistic after programming.



Well said.


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## Vik (Aug 24, 2015)

EvilDragon said:


> You're not forced to use expression maps, really...
> 
> How does Andy B do all his wonderful demos? He just plays them all in! A couple of passes (per instrument), some MW riding and he's done. Obviously not a lot of techy knowledge needed there. Just great chops.
> 
> So obviously nothing is really "missing" in SF's scripting, I'd say.


But I'm not saying that one cannot make great music with Mural "as is", and most likely, we don't disagree in anything... unless you insist that Spitfire should look at the poll results, observe that Berlin has got 57.5% of the votes for best scripting, while Mural/Sable has 32.5% – but do nothing about it. 

IMHO the way things are scripted in orch. libraries influence what kind of music people make. But again - if there's a demo anywhere showing that one can do the same thing with Sable as one can with Berlin...(link) – that's great (for Sable owners).


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## Vik (Aug 24, 2015)

maxime77 said:


> what you're saying is that you want them to sound as good as finished stuff without any programming


I said that one of needs to put work into any library, and that one *always* have to tweak/adjust things.


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## EvilDragon (Aug 24, 2015)

Vik said:


> unless you insist that Spitfire should look at the poll results, observe that Berlin has got 57.5% of the votes for best scripting, while Mural/Sable has 32.5% – but do nothing about it.



I'm not insisting on that. In fact I kinda disagree with those results, since IMHO Spitfire has the best scripting of any developer out there, simply because they have their own framework (the Sandbox engine) they build upon, which is also the reason why they can update stuff often and it carries over across their product range. This is no small feat and I feel people are not giving it a lot of importance. And it is important. No other developer uses this method (except, to certain and much smaller extent, Sonokinetic) - that's why updates are few and far between for them. Also, Sandbox is coded with extreme efficiency in mind, it doesn't use Big Bob's math lib (because it doesn't really need it - why do other devs think that it's necessary? It's not obligatory to use it to get results that can be done in other ways...), and this all reflects in the final voice count+CPU usage.


Bear in mind I write with a little bias, since I'm a KSP developer myself, so these are things I appreciate and can evaluate. Regular user usually doesn't know about these things (nor should he), but I'm weighting in my opinion as a developer. So when people say SF's scripting is "lacking", I think they don't really know what they're talking about.  It's anything BUT lacking.


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## Vik (Aug 24, 2015)

EvilDragon said:


> when people say SF's scripting is "lacking", I think they don't really know what they're talking about.


Let there be no doubt about it: I don't know what I'm talking about.  I just want something as simple - with so many nuances etc – as in the first two minutes of the demo above - without too much nerding around. It seems that I may have to wait for Mural 4 to get some/all of this, but if I remember right, the demo above was made shortly after the initial BS release.


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## maxime77 (Aug 24, 2015)

Vik said:


> Let there be no doubt about it: I don't know what I'm talking about.  I just want something as simple - with so many nuances etc – as in the first two minutes of the demo above - without too much nerding around. It seems that I may have to wait for Mural 4 to get some/all of this, but if I remember right, the demo above was made shortly after the initial BS release.


Then the answer is simple, if you want something "as simple" as the first two minutes of the demo above, just go for Berlin Strings, since the demo was made with Berlin Strings.

The fact that Mural doesn't have the same "adaptive legato" doesn't mean it's lacking anything, it just means that the developers didn't want to go in the same direction, which is great, we can choose depending of our needs.


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## Vik (Aug 24, 2015)

maxime77 said:


> The fact that Mural doesn't have the same "adaptive legato" doesn't mean it's lacking anything, it just means that the developers didn't want to go in the same direction, which is great, we can choose depending of our needs.


Based on what someone just wrote ("With Sable, that adaptive legato is definitely possible and works just fine (and sounds great) out of the box. Mural doesn't yet have fast legato recorded so it lacks there, but I'm quite sure when all Mural volumes are complete, it's going to be just as great as Sable is" full 'adaptiveness' and the ability to choose according to our needs should both be possible?


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## Black Light Recordings (Aug 24, 2015)

Hey guys,
Spitfire just released Mural Vol 3 and Mural Evolutions. Vol 3 has fast runs and Evolutions has some amazing morphing abilities between arts with their unique grid system. I'm fighting to keep my money in my pocket!


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## EvilDragon (Aug 24, 2015)

maxime77 said:


> it just means that the developers didn't want to go in the same direction



Not quite. Sandbox engine is quite capable of adaptive legato, but SF didn't record all the necessary legato types for Mural yet. For Sable, they did.


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## FriFlo (Aug 24, 2015)

I actually don't really care what script a scripted finds better, I just care for what I find more helpful composing. On the other side, neither SF nor OT has it done in a way I would exactly want it, so it is not the most important matter to me. To me,mkt is far more important, that the articulations are good and in that respect, Berlin Strings has a slight advantage compared to Sable (definitively towards Mural). Where OT definitively wins me right now is the price structure. Would SF have a decent price, like they used to, and honor loyal customers, I would just say, both have their pros and cons and are worth it. However, I don't like being cheated, so Mural vol 2 will be my last SF investment, until they have come to their senses. See: I would really like to use Pro Tools! It has some nice features. But I don't, because their prices are a scam. Same with SF ...


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## EvilDragon (Aug 24, 2015)

Do you have any idea how much it costs to record at AIR? Of course they need to recoup their investment, hence their pricing. Entirely justified.


Also both Blake and Andy are composers, not just programmers. So it's not about what a scripter/programmer finds better (although that's my opinion - I do actually play keyboards and know how to compose, but I chose another line of work, but that's unrelated to the point).


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## Vik (Aug 24, 2015)

EvilDragon said:


> Do you have any idea how much it costs to record at AIR?


I won't write on behalf FriFlo, but I don't think the recording costs are relevant in the discussions that has been about SF's price _policy_ lately. It's not that the (overall) price is too high as such, but that certain existing SF users (depending on when the discount period is, their possible lack of interest in extra volumes and more) won't get the same options for a discount as some people who haven't invested in SF libs at all. Of course SF want and deserve as much money as possible for their great work, but I think they would have made more money AND made more existing users happy with a different price _policy_ (as opposed to a different price, which is something else). 

The price policy means that as M1 and M2 owner some of us won't get any discount at all if we buy M3. And their 'development policy' means that even now, when M3 is out, I wouldn't have one single instrument which would have what many consider 'basic' functions and articulations, including fast legatos and a 'master' patch for each og the five instruments which switches between all the articulations on the fly. If the result is that some of us won't spend more money on eg Mural, SF is getting less cash to pay their Air Studios invoices with; not more. 
Please don't get me wrong... in spite of the fact that BS has almost twice has many votes for their playability here, SF is the potential "winner" anyway, because it's easier to improve the legato and dynamics coding than to re-record ten thousands of samples to get a better sound. 


FriFlo said:


> I actually don't really care what script a scripted finds better, I just care for what I find more helpful composing


+1 
I don't think of 'scripting' in a technical way, but as in what happens when I record a melodic line or other musical idea. I just want to have a "master" V1 (and V2 etc) patch which responds as much as possible to my playing. 

My main thing with 'scripting' is that I don't even want to think of it. But I do now - because I may have to wait for Mural 4 or 5 to get things right, eg because there are no fast legatos in there, and because the Rach and Marcato articulations don't seem to be fully integrated with the existing articulations (at least not from what I've seen in the demos). Also... AFAIK there's no way to get a special price on eg Sable 1 as a Mural 1 owner - which affects the real life price we have to pay to get a divisi solution where one instrument group plays two different lines (as opposed to playing the same line with a layered sound).


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## FriFlo (Aug 24, 2015)

Exactly! I just couldn't help but notice, that without any doubt, with spitfire you will get a substantially better deal, the later you buy into their stuff. It could come close to what east west is doing ... If I notice that kind of strategy with any developer, I am out (at least for the time being). I am fine buying a library for a premium price that gets reduced in price every 2 years step by step! But selling it for less than half of the price after that time is not ok for me. Also, when a library gets released bit by bit, obviously leaving out important bits every time, to make the next volume a must-have, I kind of feel like a beta-tester. I am fine with that, as long as I get the best price for this kind of offer. That was the case with Sable. It was not with Mural.
In the end, I could endure any kind of scam like this, if the product is really that outstanding! But that simply isn't the case. BML certainly is good stuff, but it also has its weaknesses and other competitors are great, too! So far, I used SF brass the most, and there are just a lot of things, you cannot do with all those Volume 1s. But I payed more for that volume 1 package than for any other (more complete) brass package.
The argument of the rent for air studios is also not correct IMO. Teldex is certainly not on the cheap side either! And I am sure, they get good deals for renting so many sessions there.
By the way, Evildragon: I did not intend to diminish your opinion about the scripting, if that is how you understood it. All I was trying to say is: SF mostly does pretty basic stuff, while OT tries to do new things and sometimes comes up with great stuff. I admit, though, that not everything they do gets into my template. But, as I said, comparing the whole package (sound, versatility, richness of articulations, ...) OT is the winner to me regarding strings. I am anxiously waiting for Berlin Brass to show up as a complete package (except for mutes, which will be an expansion).


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## EvilDragon (Aug 24, 2015)

FriFlo said:


> All I was trying to say is: SF mostly does pretty basic stuff,



Not really. They do quite advanced stuff as well. Adaptive legato, for example, was in there before OT had theirs built (later on they just added user adjustable ranges for it). No other dev has Cog functionality, either. Per articulation mixer? UACC? Shared keyswitches? Custom articulation switching methods with detailed setup (done waaaaaaaay before OT)? Reset to a specific RR? Stuff like this isn't basic at all.


As for price, it's actually very similar when you take all BS expansions into account. The whole Berlin Strings range totals to €1456.6+VAT. Sable full bundle (all 4 volumes PLUS ensembles) is €1495+VAT, which is just slightly higher. So, not really a proper comparison there.


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## FriFlo (Aug 24, 2015)

Yeah, but Sable is half the section size of Berlin Strings, which is pretty ok to me, but should make a bigger impact on production costs than the hall, which you mentioned earlier. I payed quite a lot less for Sable, actually, as I bought it early bird. I had to wait for more than two years for all the content to be released, but that is ok with me. With Mural, I would probably also have waited for 2 - 3 years to get a similar collection and I would still do that, if I would get a decent price (doesn't have to be as good as the early bird Sable). Instead, I found out my recent purchases of Vol 1 and 2, were actually a mistake, now with vol 3 I would have made a way better bundle-deal. In all that time, I used Berlin Strings quite often, while I barely used Mural because of its limited articulations. Why should I then keep investing in incomplete libraries? They will have cost me many times the money, until I get all the content. No library is that much better that it could justify that price.
I probably wouldn't even write anything like that here, just not buy. What really makes me angry and post a comment like this is the fact that SF tries to force me to buy Ensembles, to get access to all content. I will not pay for content I already bought! When this library was announced, I was already kind of suprised, that they didn't offer it to owners of Sable/Mural free or for a marginal fee, which would be more than enough for no original sample content! I just didn't care enough for the library to waste any words about it. But trying to force me to buy does it for me! I started as somebody with great interest for SF, but now I actually I regret having fed that greedy company. They seemed to be founded on customer loyalty, but completely changed their game plan on the way. They also showed me many times, that they are not able to deal with critique on forums - even polite and constructive one, so I don't believe, they will change their attitude. Obviously, the hype around Air has brought them enough followers, so they don't need to be decent any more.


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## TintoL (Aug 24, 2015)

A lot of technical stuff that I didn't know has been said here about the scripting side of these tools. Thanks for sharing all this guys.

I can relate easily with Vik's quest for a tool that needs just tweaking. One thing that I've felt most frustrated is with getting a dry library to sound good and in the same room. IT'S SUCH A PAIN TO GET A DRY LIBRARY TO WORK THAT it just destroys the composing joy; that to me is the one thing I don't want to be tweaking. I've been fighting and fighting with vsl solo strings for ages and it still sounds bad to my ears. It's a job for an audio engineering, not for hobbyist composer like me. That's why I rather pay for the ultimate awesome sound ready for me. I will put the articulations and the curve, I don't care. To me, Spitfire method of recording is as closest I've heard from the real sound. I hope they produce a new "up to sable standards" solo string library so I can get rid of this vsl solo strings. I know berlin strings has 4 mics and is not dry, but, I want the ultimate sound, not the program.

East west Hollywood series is a good example. They have a very good sound, based on a platform not solid from the programming point of view IMHO. Then, you have vsl dry stuff with super ultra clean flexible programming. I am not sure of this, but I find a lot of people fighting with the play software just because the sound is more important and less people using vsl because of the steep learning curve on mixing and mastering. Of course this is just my opinion not what it is.

I actually find that every time I use any of my performance setups from VSL or Spitfire, every time... I just hate how I have to think in velocity ranges and in speed ranges when playing. That is live programming to me and there is always stuff to fix, but, I agree is less fixing at the end. But, to me I rather be assigning articulations and painting expression curves than FREAKING TWEAKING HOW A LIBRERY SOUNDS OR SITS ON A ROOM. It's soo hard is not even funny. That's why you get a degree on this stuff.

EvilDragon also beat me on something. At the end, the prices of both are the same. But, with mural you get evolution, and that I find was a genius idea because is instant inspiration and mood for a piece with random infinite results.

To me, I still prefer what I get from spitfire.


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## maxime77 (Aug 25, 2015)

TintoL said:


> IT'S SUCH A PAIN TO GET A DRY LIBRARY TO WORK THAT it just destroys the composing joy; that to me is the one thing I don't want to be tweaking.



I was feeling the exact same way when I first used LA Scoring Strings, which was said to be one of the best String library (which may be true, just requires a lot of tweaking to sound good). I ended up using almost exclusively Spitfire libraries for orchestral stuff, as they sound the closest out-of-the-box to what I hear in soundtracks.


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## Vik (Aug 25, 2015)

Vik said:


> That's possible... are there any demos out there which demonstrates that - which uses the same kind of articulation combinations that are used in the first YT-clip above?


Bump.


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## Vik (Aug 26, 2015)

Vik said:


> Marcato articulations don't seem to be fully integrated with the existing articulations (at least not from what I've seen in the demos)


I can confirm now that the new Marcato Attack articulation is not a part of the Legato Combination patches.


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## Vik (Aug 26, 2015)

EvilDragon said:


> The whole Berlin Strings range totals to €1456.6+VAT. Sable full bundle (all 4 volumes PLUS ensembles) is €1495+VAT, which is just slightly higher. So, not really a proper comparison there.


840 (Main Lib) +210 (Exp A) +160 (Exp B) +249 SFX, if you need it) = 1459, but AFAIK people may get a discount offer if they contact OT about buying the whole range, so I believe Berlin is cheaper. The main thing for me is that Mural after there volumes still seems to miss essential samples dynamic samples in the legato patches (ff/marcato attacks), that the new "rach" or "marcato" artic isn't integrated with the legato performance, that Mural still has no Fast Legato, and that the playability in the initial version of BS makes things a lot easier that what is offered in Mural 3.


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## prodigalson (Aug 26, 2015)

> observe that Berlin has got 57.5% of the votes for best scripting, while Mural/Sable has 32.5%



But also note that when it comes to sound, in the same poll Mural beats Berlin Strings by a much wider margin. Every library has it's pros and cons but whether or not "playability" is more important than sound is an entirely personal and subjective decision. It seems that you land more in the 'playability' camp and have already made up your mind. 

I have BS, mural and Sable. While I haven't dived into the Capsule too much since it was released, I've never really had that much of an issue with the BML workflow. I love Sable's adaptive legato and scripting and loading the patches I need into one instance of Kontakt and using shared keyswitches or UACC or velocity switching never seemed to be that much of a big deal for me. You can also overlay Marcato attack over legato if you need to.


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## Vik (Aug 29, 2015)

prodigalson said:


> But also note that when it comes to sound, in the same poll Mural beats Berlin Strings by a much wider margin.


Yes, which may support what I wrote earlier about Mural having a very strong potential to become the "winner" both in terms of sound and scripting. 


> Every library has it's pros and cons but whether or not "playability" is more important than sound is an entirely personal and subjective decision.


"Playability" as such is probably interesting mainly for those who would play these samples live or for plain inspiration. But the thing which IMHO *is* important with the somewhat vague playability term is that it says something about how much editing you need to do after having recorded something in order to make things sound right.


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## ModalRealist (Aug 29, 2015)

Were I a rich man, I would very happily own both Mural and Berlin Strings. Alas, it is not so. But my point is that these libraries are better viewed, in my view, on _their own merits_, and not in comparison.

Why? Because neither is going to give you anything approaching the _flexibility_ of a live string orchestra. In other words, each library *possesses its own distinct musical style*, and while much can be achieved with that, it ultimately delimits the outer boundary of the kind of "recording" you'll be able to produce with the library.

The point is that "realism" and "ease of use" (or "playability") are always relative to the musical effect you are trying to create, and all libraries have quite strong intrinsic biases in this regard. So one's answer to these questions will always depend radically on the music one is trying to achieve.

Suffice to say, one need only listen to Sascha and Andy's demos for their respective companies to realise that this question of realism especially is not one of substantive difference, but of stylistic difference.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 29, 2015)

ModalRealist said:


> Were I a rich man, I would very happily own both Mural and Berlin Strings. Alas, it is not so. But my point is that these libraries are better viewed, in my view, on _their own merits_, and not in comparison.
> 
> Why? Because neither is going to give you anything approaching the _flexibility_ of a live string orchestra. In other words, each library *possesses its own distinct musical style*, and while much can be achieved with that, it ultimately delimits the outer boundary of the kind of "recording" you'll be able to produce with the library.
> 
> ...



Beautifully stated Modal Realist. And my guess is that both Nick Phoenix and Colin O'Malley would say that the libraries they have helped create followed what they as composers want.


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## Vik (Sep 1, 2015)

At the moment, there are 45% more votes for Berlin Strings than there are for Mural/Sable in terms of playability/scripting etc, and circa 39% more votes for Mural/Sable in terms of "sound". I like both these libraries, and consider buying Berlin as well – but can anyone who has tried them together say something about how well they blend? Thanks in advance.


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## Infiniquity (Sep 2, 2015)

I love both of them. I have a slight preference for Sable sound but use them together quite often. They always seemed to blend well for me. Here a short track


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## kavinsky (Sep 5, 2015)

Honestly, I wouldn't buy berlin strings if I were you.
I tried to find some use for them for almost 2 years with little luck.
First of all, they are very WET(even the close mike alone), I'm not a fan of the tone either. It's hard to describe what qualities I don't like exactly, but they don't sound expensive enought for me (compared to cinestrings for example - the difference is just huge).
The second thing is release times (dropouts, tail buildup), making the legato patches almost unusable in many cases. They just feel very smudged and it's hard for me to achieve perfect timing. At first I was pretty happy with them, but in real life applications they just don't fit most of the time.
Usually I'll just go and grab good old LASS and it would be much more on point.
It's not that bad, of course, some people could easily proove everything I said wrong with their great demos, these are just my thoughts. There a tons of cool articulations there and most of them oddly enough sound a lot better than legato patch.
I think 8dio did a great job with their Agitato trypack, we need some kind of demo before we buy the stuff.

Spitfire legatos have that "smudginess" problem too, but I was able to fix it with legato speed knob, turning it all the way down (I own Sable, but I think Mural is the same in terms of UI)

It comes down to the type of feel you're going for. Just listen through the demos carefully and find what's yours.


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## Vik (Sep 25, 2015)

kavinsky said:


> Honestly, I wouldn't buy berlin strings if I were you.
> I tried to find some use for them for almost 2 years with little luck.
> First of all, they are very WET(even the close mike alone), I'm not a fan of the tone either.


Thanks for your reply. It's actually the "tone" I like in their legato strings...

(Link:)

... not in a hi-fi meaning of the word, but in my ears the BS legato sounds more close to authentic passionate string sounds than many other libraries.

Again, it seems that Mural 3 has something similar (Sul G/Sul C/Rach articulations), but I'm the only one with Mural around here, so I need to buy Mural 3 to check out how playable and flexible it is.

Most of all, I'm looking for a solution where the different portamento and marcato samples are integrated into one main multi-patch. This would hopefully reduce the need for entering left-brain mode too often.

ETA: Is it commonly agreed upon that BS are very wet? That kind of surprises me after having heard eg demos like this:


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## AR (Sep 27, 2015)

My pros and cons for these two libraries are:

Spitfire Mural

+great Spicc (through Time Machine patches) till an certain amount of tempo
+great Flautando (no Legato though). This is a true film score sound!!
+great hall
+big section
+great pizz

-bad legato (it's to harsh, not the scripting. I mean the playing itself)
-no sordino legato (at least in Vol.1)

Spitfire Sable

+many articulations
+Sul Pont 
+better legato than in Mural1 (though not convincing enough for me) 
+also great flautando (no legato)

-to small section to work as a ensemble, to big section to work as a quartet/octet

Berlin Strings

+perfect section to work as an ensemble
+great legato (when played piano)
+Repetitions
+great Sordino function
+many articulations

-long loading times
-bad legato (same problem as in Mural), also, the 3 ways of legato is not convincing to my ears. The intonation function is good though
-to small, to work in an epic score alone. You have to blend it with other libraries, but that works fine
-drier than Spitfire. needs definitly reverb (could be a pro+ though)

My conclusion: In the end, you have products that have their strength in certain situations. In other situations you need to jump over to other developers. Is there an alrounder here? - Yes, Sable. Will it fit in my next epic track? - Nope. Do I need to write the next epic track (again)? - Certainly not. - Sable works great for comedy. Remember those Desperate Housewives scores? 
Mural is a beast. A beast that bites the Hollywood sound. And yet there are many similar articulations as in Albion series but in seperate controllable string sections, I often chose Albion over Mural, because of that "roomy" sound Albion has.
Berlin Strings is a RAM killer. 1.3gb plus another 1.3gb (for surrounds) just for one legato section is a little bit greedy, don't you think? It works, yes, it works, but count for yourself; how much RAM it takes, if you only load up the legato string patches (noise function excluded!!)?


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## kunst91 (Sep 27, 2015)

AR said:


> My pros and cons for these two libraries are:
> 
> Spitfire Mural
> 
> ...



I have mural and sable, but recently I find myself using sable exclusively, in large part because I haven't yet purchased mural vol. 3

True, sable doesn't have the "epic" sound, but if you ever need that just layer with Albion strings. I find that the detail of sable combined with the "roomy" sound of Albion is a great one-two punch of big and articulate.


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## Vik (Sep 29, 2015)

Does anyone here know if there are any more demo tracks of the new legato sounds (Rach/Sul G/SulC) in Mural 3 than the short excerpts in the Spitfire stuff on YouTube?


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## Coldsound (Sep 29, 2015)

A friend of mine did a review and a demo song of mural vol3, it might help...
http://theaudiospotlight.com/bml-series-mural-vol-3-spitfire-audio-review/


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## Vik (Sep 30, 2015)

Coldsound said:


> A friend of mine did a review and a demo song of mural vol3, it might help...
> http://theaudiospotlight.com/bml-series-mural-vol-3-spitfire-audio-review/



Thanks, that was interesting. He concludes that Mural has great potential, and I agree. I also agree that it would have been great with more dynamic layers. I even agree that the overall sound is spectacular - at least when it comes to short notes and non-legato long notes.


AR said:


> -bad legato (it's to harsh, not the scripting. I mean the playing itself)


I agree in your list of pros. The thing about harshly played legatos looks at first as a quite harsh statement. It's easier to get a clear, detailed sound with smaller sections... and violins (etc) often do sound harsh when recorded. People have sid the same thing about LASS. Still, if I compare the results I can get with Mural 1/2 and some of the LASS demos I've heard (especially the legato sordino), LASS sounds better - but maybe it's not due to harsh or not harsh playing... but maybe due to the smaller sections, and of course – the lack of divisi in Mural?

Is it possible to achieve something like this (see link below) with Mural 3?

http://audiobro.com/100-percent-sordino-music-example/

Or this:  ?

Personally - since I'm not using my old VSL library (for EXS!) anymore, and the other libraries I have are limited, maybe I should go for something else than Mural 3... eg. because I need divisi sections; something more detailed sounding than Mural (in addition to using Mural for short notes, its great flautando etc). I'll probably do that (and decide today!) unless someone can post some more examples of the SulC/SulG/Rach samples in Mural 3.

For divisi/integrating more detailed/smaller groups in the Mural environment, my main decision would be between LASS (probably Lass Legato Sordino) and Sable.[/quote][/QUOTE]


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## muk (Sep 30, 2015)

Does Mural have an attack control slider or something similar? If it does it would be possible to lower the attacks where you find the legato too agressive. I do that all the time with the VSL Dimension Strings, and it works very well.


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## Coldsound (Sep 30, 2015)

I have dimension strings too, and if you want divisi and more intimate sounding, it might worth looking at it.
The problem with DS is that it's demanding in term of CPU and the sound need a lot (I mean a lot) of tweaking before you can get decent result. But you can choose which size of section you want (you won't have very big and wide section) and you have a lot of different articulation to choose from...


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## gbar (Sep 30, 2015)

EvilDragon said:


> You're not forced to use expression maps, really...
> 
> How does Andy B do all his wonderful demos? He just plays them all in! A couple of passes (per instrument), some MW riding and he's done. Obviously not a lot of techy knowledge needed there. Just great chops.
> .



You make it all sound so easy.

I have been trying every now and then to recreate something like some of Andy's brass stuff, and... there's a knack to it I haven't managed to discover yet


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## AR (Sep 30, 2015)

@Vik well, there are certain libraries out there which have no harsh sounding legato, but that would hijack the thread. Afaik they aren't small sized


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## JFetter (Sep 30, 2015)

I don't own Mural or Sable, but has anyone experimented with doubling up on Sable?
Record 2 instances playing the same part, each will have slightly different timing and expression (which will help with realism) and you'll double the string section size. Slightly different mic positions could be used. 
Would this be convincing at all?


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## Vik (Sep 30, 2015)

JFetter said:


> has anyone experimented with doubling up on Sable?


Yes, I know people have been doing this and IIRR, there's even a way to layer different Round Robins in Sable to make this process simple. I have Mural 1/2, not Sable, but Mural has such options.


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## Vik (Sep 30, 2015)

maxime77 said:


> Of course libraries that sound good "live" are more inspiring. But what you're saying is that you want them to sound as good as finished stuff without any programming.


No, I'm not saying that.  I agree that some "modern libraries sound good enough live to be inspiring, and they sound even better & realistic after programming".


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## Vik (Oct 6, 2015)

A bit off topic: have any of you compared Berlin/Mural with VSL Dimension Strings?


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## scarred bunny (Oct 7, 2015)

I have Berlin and Dimension Strings, and quite like both but for different reasons. Honestly their design concepts are so vastly different it's hard to make a comparison between the two. Berlin vs. VSL Orchestral Strings might be a better apples-to-apples comparison. 

I think the biggest advantage of DS is, obviously, the flexibility for divisi writing, and I appreciate that you can get unbelievably geeky with tweaking each player individually. The downside is that it takes a lot of time, because you typically don't want all players driven by the same midi data. Short notes is easy to manage by randomizing timing, pitch and/or velocity slightly. Long notes controlled by dynamic crossfading is trickier, because most DAW:s don't have good facilities for randomizing/humanizing CC curves and it simply takes a lot of time to record or draw in curves across, say, 32 individual players. You don't _have_ to do that, of course, but I find it helps and breathes some life into the sound. You certainly can get at least decent results by using one MIDI track per section, or some middle ground by dividing each section into two or three groups, or something like that. 

DS has a relatively limited articulation set compared to other VSL libs (instead opting for sampling individual players, and ungodly amounts of playing positions for each articulation). Berlin is generally stronger in that regard, especially with the expansions. 

And obviously, DS is recorded dry. Berlin is not. The usual pros and cons of either approach applies. In terms of sound, I really like the Berlins across the board; being recorded the way they are, it's pretty much instant gratification. DS is a little tricky to deal with. Not my favorite string library in terms of sound, but I'm still learning how to tweak and process them. Not crazy about the tone of the violas personally. Sometimes there's something odd that I can't quite put into words that happens to the sound during unisons, probably an artifact of stacking many recordings of individual players on top of one another. Giving each player different panning and reverb settings helps a bit. This can take an awful lot of CPU resources. However... and this is important... in terms of playability and control, Berlin does a pretty good job, but DS wins. Easily. Dry libraries almost always do. DS is _very_ playable. 

Berlin is still my go-to string library in most cases. I reach for DS when I need something more detailed, and when I'm feeling sufficiently geeky. Or when I just find their particular sound character stylistically appropriate. I also recently acquired VSL's very nice Orchestral Strings, but haven't had time to play with them too much yet. Figure my next point of experimentation will be experimenting with various layering combinations of the three, and see if that leads to something cool. 

If you go to Saxer's soundcloud, you'll find some nice demos of Dimension Strings and, I believe, one track that's the same arrangement played with both DS and BS. 

https://soundcloud.com/saxer


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## Vik (Oct 8, 2015)

scarred bunny said:


> in terms of playability and control, Berlin does a pretty good job, but DS wins. Easily. Dry libraries almost always do. DS is _very_ playable.
> 
> Berlin is still my go-to string library in most cases. I reach for DS when I need something more detailed, and when I'm feeling sufficiently geeky.


Thanks for your reply. I look for something to go along with Mural, and I wouldn't need both DS and Berlin - I just needs something with more details in and small sections. I like that DS is totally flexible in that you can set up a divisi group with any number of players (up to 8), which isn't possible with Berlin. But I'll probably might as well end up using LASS or Berlin (or Sable), due to it's UI which seems to more complex than I'd like it to be: http://www.vi-control.net/community/threads/vsl-dimension-strings-template-tutorial.44806/


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## scarred bunny (Oct 8, 2015)

Right. I don't have Mural, but I do have Sable. I figure Sable would be the perfect companion for Mural, if you like that sound and design philosophy and want something smaller and more detailed. Should be pretty much effortless blending. Pricey though, but so are the other candidates you mention. 

The detail and complexity of DS is a double-edged thing for sure, but you only really need to set up the patches once, so that part isn't so bad. I actually just use the default configuration with some minor tweaks. Works fine for me.


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## Pixelee (Oct 8, 2015)

I saw this video about Lass 

Can Berlin strings be as tight as that?


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## muk (Oct 8, 2015)

Don't let that tutorial scare you. Your setup doesn't have to be quite so sophisticated if you don't want. The Dimension Strings come with many presets. Simply use one of them and be ready to go. DS are incredibly customizeable, but you can use as much or as little of that as you want. And as scarred bunny wrote, if you customize you only have to do it once.
Again as has been mentioned before, where DS really stands out is playability. You can actually play them like an instrument and get great results. That's so much fun. I can't compare that to Berlin Strings or Mural though.


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## wpc982 (Oct 8, 2015)

To answer the question above: "Can Berlin strings be as tight as that?"

Yes.

In fact, watching that video: some of the rapidity comes from similar sounds contributed by different tracks, and using that old technique you can use nearly any library and get fast rhythmic lines.


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## Vik (Oct 9, 2015)

muk said:


> Don't let that tutorial scare you. Your setup doesn't have to be quite so sophisticated if you don't want.


I have seen some reviews and demos, and what I wonder about the most is if I'would enjoy the UI. It looks a little 1995 to me.  The table with all the abbreviations (pLeV,rPo, tmf etc) seem confusing, or at least adds clutter, and do we really need to call presets eg. "VI-P1_GL1_Art-Combi" today? Couldn't they at least have removed the _underscores_?
Another thing: with one (mono? stereo?) voice for each violin, I guess DS will need 8 times as much memory as a similar library with 8 violins sampled as a group?


scarred bunny said:


> I figure Sable would be the perfect companion for Mural, if you like that sound and design philosophy and want something smaller and more detailed.


I like the sound but it seems that Spitfire are covering so many libraries that each of them possibly suffer from not enough sources for updates/scripting etc. For legatos, it seems that Berlin, DS, LASS and maybe even CineSamples are more playable.


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## Vik (Oct 9, 2015)

Pixelee said:


> I saw this video about Lass
> 
> Can Berlin strings be as tight as that?



I guess it can... one thing which has kept me from purchasing LASS so far is that if you listen to the demos on really good studio monitors or very good headphones (HD-650), LASS is a bit weaker than Mural in terms of plain sound quality. Play three simple spicatto notes with Mural (or the new Albion), and they kind of "sing", while the demo you posted and other things I've heard from LASS doesn't sound as "acoustic"/HD, maybe due to poor converters or other limitations in the recording chain.


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## muk (Oct 9, 2015)

If I'm not mistaken you can try VI Pro for 30 days if you have an elicenser key. Just try it and see for yourself whether you like it or not. Design is always a matter of taste, but in terms of functionality the VI Pro player is top notch (and if patch names are a big obstacle for you, you can of course rename them to whatever you want). It's true that Dimension Strings are somewhat resource hungry though. Again, I can't compare with Berlin Strings or Mural, but I could imagine that these need a bit less.


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## scarred bunny (Oct 9, 2015)

Vik said:


> Another thing: with one (mono?stereo?) voice for each violin, I guess DS will need 8 times as much memory as a similar library with 8 violins sampled as a group?



They're mono samples, I believe. DS is a pretty resource hungry library for sure. My DS template uses about 14 GB of RAM. When everyone is playing I can hear my CPU crying in pain. This is using all 8 + 8 violins, 6 violas, 6 cellos, 4 basses, using the default patches with most articulations but only one playing position. I haven't checked if you can do some clever optimization in the sample player to bring RAM use down.

For comparison, I think my Berlin Strings setup uses about 16-17 GB when loading fully purged. Only one microphone position, but loading most of the articulations across the core library and its expansions.

I take the everything and the kitchen sink approach to building templates, of course. Not everyone does or needs that, so you can probably get by with less. 



Vik said:


> I like the sound but it seems that Spitfire are covering so many libraries that each of them possibly suffer from not enough sources for updates/scripting etc. For legatos, it seems that Berlin, DS, LASS and maybe even CineSamples are more playable.



Sable has been out for a while and has received many significant updates, all for free. I'd say they have had a pretty good track record there in the past, but maybe it's changed in more recent times now that the BML range has exploded in size. I'm not sure.

No arguments from me regarding the playability though  me and Sable's legato aren't the best of friends unfortunately.


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## Vik (Oct 9, 2015)

scarred bunny said:


> Sable has been out for a while and has received many significant updates


True... But aren't people still waiting for Sable 3b or something? And after 2 years, there are still no fully consolidated Mural preset with portamento legatos in the with the needed dynamic layers (marcato is missing). No legato sordinos either. Although I know tweaking always will be needed, I tend to like the Berlin (and VSL DS?) approach, where as much as possible can be done without needing manual tweaking and twisting. From what I hear, even good old LASS is more playable than the current Mural setup. Don't get me wrong, I think Spitfire is a great company and that Mural sounds very good.
Like pretty much everyone else, I think it may be a good idea to mix different libraries to get the best result, which is why I'm looking at Berlin/LASS/VSL DS, and I must admit that if VSL DS had a more modern/easy UI, it looks very tempting.


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## scarred bunny (Oct 9, 2015)

Honestly I forget how the story of 3b goes, but wasn't that just the legato sordino stuff or something like that? We finally did get those earlier this year. I also remember many were complaining about the time it took to release the alt mics, but I never use those myself so I didn't pay too much attention. 

I wouldn't be too put off by the UI in VSL's player though. It might not look very hot, but it's very usable and customizable. I'd say the sample player is one of VSL's bigger strengths even.


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## muk (Oct 12, 2015)

If you are interested in an longer mockup with exposed Dimension Strings - and not created by an official VSL demo creator - you may want to give this one a listen:

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/händel-water-music-mockup.49085/

Though it doesn't feature real divisi, there are only half sections playing in some parts.


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## Vik (Oct 19, 2015)

Thanks for the DS demo, Muk (responded in another thread!)


Coldsound said:


> The problem with DS is that it's demanding in term of CPU and...


If it's demanding in terms of CPU and memory, I guess, since it basically needs one instance per violin, shouldn't they have made an upgrade with the same instruments, but also with groups of, say 2/4/8 instruments?


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## FredrikJonasson (Nov 29, 2015)

One more question regarding the Rachmaninov longs and legato. Is it not integrated with the earlier legato intervals or does Paul just forget to say that. It's natural that he refers to Legato Runs integration since that's a patch only found in Mural 3. Anyone knows anything about this?


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## Vik (Nov 29, 2015)

I have tried to find out this as well. Unfortunately, it seems that the Rach articulation is a separate thing, and part of the Decorative Palette:


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## FredrikJonasson (Nov 29, 2015)

Thanks Vik for the super quick answer. I'm not counting on it, but to not integrate it into the combo legato patch surely would be a shame.


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## Vik (Nov 29, 2015)

I agree. Having one "master" legato patch which includes the current legato options and also at least one extra dynamic layer with accented note starts could help me stop surfing for other libraries.


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## Vik (Nov 30, 2015)

Vik said:


> A bit off topic: have any of you compared.....


Also off topic...  Since what I mainly miss from Mural are a big variety of (integrated) legato solutions with enough dynamic layers, maybe I should also consider Adagio, which apparently has 7 different legato types. Have any of you worked with both libraries and made any conclusions/comparisons?


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## FriFlo (Dec 1, 2015)

Vik said:


> Also off topic...  Since what I mainly miss from Mural are a big variety of (integrated) legato solutions with enough dynamic layers, maybe I should also consider Adagio, which apparently has 7 different legato types. Have any of you worked with both libraries and made any conclusions/comparisons?


Not Adagio IMO: they do have some legato variations, but only one dynamic layer! The library sounds good, when you hit one of those spots it was made for! But it is rather useless for quite a lot of stuff. Also, it has the most amount of noise I have ever heard in any orchestral library! Maybe I will buy it at some Black Friday for a small price, but every year I tell myself ... No, I don't need it really! It has some use, but even half the money off just doesn't cut it...


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## Vik (Dec 1, 2015)

FriFlo said:


> ...only one dynamic layer! The library sounds good, when you hit one of those spots it was made for! But it is rather useless for quite a lot of stuff. Also, it has the most amount of noise I have ever heard in any orchestral library!


Only one dynamic layer? Thanks for the info, I didn't know that. And I agree that many of the demos sound good, but guess I won't go for anything with one dynamic layer only. (The only argument pro doing that would probably be that it's impossible to get one product which covers all needs, so one simple has to rely on at least 2-3 string libraries anyway – meaning that Adagio could be one of them.)

ETA: Hmmm... this ReadMe (http://8dio.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/8dio_adagio_violins_1_1_read_me.pdf) says:


> This is very similar to the implementation in existing sample libraries. You can shape attacks and arcs for notes using CC1 (Modwheel) to cross fade between several dynamic layers.


Confused....


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## FriFlo (Dec 1, 2015)

Vik said:


> Only one dynamic layer? Thanks for the info, I didn't know that. And I agree that many of the demos sound good, but guess I won't go for anything with one dynamic layer only. (The only argument pro doing that would probably be that it's impossible to get one product which covers all needs, so one simple has to rely on at least 2-3 string libraries anyway – meaning that Adagio could be one of them.)


Little disclaimer: I do not own Adagio, just Agitato. But I have tested Adagio and played around with it in a friends studio. I did not check the layers inside Kontakt, but from the sound, I would say most short notes do have 2 - 3 dynamic layers, while the legato patches just use loudness control (and maybe some filtering) for expressive control. I don't want to claim, all legal patches do, as I only had a few minutes going through multiple patches.
This is kind of understandable, as the concept of the library is to use the "arcs" (sustains with baked in/recorded expression) and combine these to get more expression.
I did never really work with Adagio, so I cannot say for sure, but my impression was, that this can work really well on some lines, while you are out of luck with other ones.
Maybe someone owning the library, who also uses other ones could shed more light on that topic! But my impression is, that Adagio is not going to give you, what you are after, which is versatile legato patches with lots of dynamic layers.


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## Vik (Dec 1, 2015)

It seems that they think that it's better to use recordings of real life dynamic changes than to create "artificial" crossfades, which kind of makes sense, but I've seen several places now that they actually have up to three layers for long notes (but again, more or less insist that people rather should be use recorded, real changes).


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## Vik (Dec 22, 2015)

Since I now have both Mural and Berlin, I plan to post some info for those who are curious about the differences (in terms of scripting, workflow etc). 

But first, a question to Berlin users: how do you automate stuff in logic?

(In Mural, I can assign eg legato interval speed to any host parameter number by dragging eg "002", onto where it says Speed (see image), and I'm pretty sure there's an equivalent to that in BS, I just haven't found it yet.)


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## MrCambiata (Dec 22, 2015)

Vik said:


> Since I now have both Mural and Berlin, I plan to post some info for those who are curious about the differences (in terms of scripting, workflow etc).



I'd be very interested in such a comparison.


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## Pixelee (Dec 22, 2015)

Me too!


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## Vik (Dec 23, 2015)

I'll get back to that asap. Meanwhile: there are many other members of this forum who know more about the differences between Berlin and Mural than me - I only had Berlin for a few days. Please chime in if you want to share your experiences!


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## Vik (Aug 8, 2016)

Vik said:


> I'll get back to that asap.



ASAP. 


Sorry for not having responded to this earlier. It would take a lot of time going in detail about the differences (and I'm no expert on either of these libraries), but just to start somewhere... I'll focus on Berlin in this first post:

•First of all, and I'm quite confident that most users of both libraries will agree with me here: The legato patches in Berlin Strings are more playable/believable - but this has been discussed in other threads, so I won't dive into the details here.

•Berlin has a Con Sordino option on most (all?) patches, but it's not a real Con Sordino; the sound is emulated in software. IMO the Con Sords in Mural sound a lot better.

•Berlin also has a number of mic options (see image), and a few solutions here which I like:
One can solo or mute and of the mics options (and it's easy to pan them individually, should one want that).

•Another neat function is AutoGain: if I select three mic faders and change the level of one of them, the other two are adjusted automatically, meaning that the combined out level of the mic package won't change. Very useful.

•Berlin doesn't allow you to crossfade between the vibrato layers - you have to choose one of them at a time (but can of course change them in the middle of a phrase, but the vibrato amount you choose won't have any effect until you play a new note. I know the arguments pro this solution, but I find myself missing a way to gradually increase the vibrato among in the middle of a long note.

•Berlin has a knob for legato volume which actually works. Spitfire also has this, but most of the time it seems to do nothing. Mural users, correct me if I'm wrong here.

• When controlling dynamics, Berlin has a few special options (Niente, Ignore Noise and Soft Low Layer), explained this way in the user guide:

Niente: If enabled, the lowest dynamic setting (usually CC1 at 0 or key velocity at 0) will cause the instrument to be completely silent. Use this setting when using your instruments with a breath or wind controller.
Soft Low Layer: If checked, the lowest dynamic layer will first be increased in volume when controlling dynamics and only later the next layer will begin to fade in, allowing softer low dynamics.
Ignore Noises: This option makes the playing noises (wind or bow, depending on the library) not be affected by the Niente option. This way the noises will still be present even if playing very softly.

• Berlin also comes with four Ensemble patches (covering the total range of all the instruments), and personally I find the Whole Ensemble Sustains Soft particularly useful.

• Finally (and again, this is not an in-depth review - so please more info if I have forgotten something important), there's a very useful solution which lets us crossfade or morph between up to four different articulations. Here's a clip which explains how it works.


The next post will contain more comparisons, this time based on what Mural can do which Berlin can't.


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## Vik (Sep 29, 2016)

I guess the power balance between Spitfire and OT just changed a bit (in terms of playability) with the newest Sable/SCS updates. It actually changed between Sable and Mural as well (hoping that Mural 3 will get what Sable 3 had, and that Mural will become more playable as well).


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## PeterKorcek (Mar 31, 2017)

Just wanted to ask you guys, which one would be your pick for "more epic/trailer" sound (TSFH, Audiomachine stuff) - I assume you can do that with both, but I am just curious. The question is for the whole orchestra, but did not find the thread for that. Air is really lovely (also as a building, I went to see it for myself a couple times when I was in London), but many demos tend to be either classical or something ethereal, I don't know. Berlin strings seem more versatile, but again, probably mainly for true orchestrators and people who can get good use out of the options. They sound incredible nevertheless - both of them.


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## maxime77 (Apr 1, 2017)

You can certainly do more close-sounding (trailer-ish) stuff with the Spitfire Orchestral libraries: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8ilaFCsy9PtbVRsbllWQ3QtekU/view

That's an extract of a track I did trying to limit myself to Albion ONE (legacy patches) for all the Orchestral stuff (including percs) – with TSFH in mind.


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## PeterKorcek (Apr 1, 2017)

maxime77 said:


> You can certainly do more close-sounding (trailer-ish) stuff with the Spitfire Orchestral



Nice excerpt, thanks for the input!


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## coprhead6 (May 14, 2017)

Continuing to resurrect this thread...

I'm really struggling to justify buying the full Berlin Strings package. I love their sound and would really like to buy them, but they are almost prohibitively expensive ($1920). Even if I had the cash lying around, I would probably feel too guilty to pull the trigger. For that price, I can buy the entire Spitfire Symphony Orchestra and still have $200 left!

I don't want to sound like I'm complaining. The old Sable/Mural products _were_ similarly priced last year, but now what? Do we think OT will "rationalize" their Berlin products as well so they can compete with Spitfire?

I would really like to see an updated comparison. Capsule 2.5 Berlin vs. SSS/SCS + Performance legato smackdown!


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## muk (May 15, 2017)

Have you seen this thread?

http://vi-control.net/community/thr...ed-is-running-ridiculously-high-in-ram.61703/

I like the sound of Berlin Strings too, but for that kind of money it would have to be the be-all end-all string library. Something head and toe above the rest, so that I could use it without ever thinking of upgrading or adding something else for years. Despite the great sound I heavily doubt that Berlin Strings could deliver that.

What I did was buying something smaller to test their products and how I like them. I bought their First Chairs Solo Strings. Again, lovely sound that I liked more than the ones of competing products. Unfortunately, the recordings and programming have such inconsistencies that I personally can't use the library for solo writing. To be fair, that's not what the product is marketed for. But there was a lot of potential, and I feel like that has been wasted in a release that feels rushed to me and even slightly sloppy in parts. No updates since either. So, despite the sound, the library was a mild disapointment to me.
That made me pass on the other parts of Berlin Strings. I am sure it is a great library, but I am not convinced that the programming and workflow suits my personal preferences.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (May 15, 2017)

muk said:


> I like the sound of Berlin Strings too, but for that kind of money it would have to be the be-all end-all string library. Something head and toe above the rest



It's pretty close to that imo. Maybe no be all end all but it's damn fine!


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## muk (May 15, 2017)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> It's pretty close to that imo. Maybe no be all end all but it's damn fine!



No doubt about it. But spending 2 grand on software that I can neither demo nor resell? Not after my rather underwhelming experience with First Chairs. I'll wait for Sonokinetic to come out with a dedicated strings library, and for VSL Synchron Strings. Lets see if I like the sound of either of these. Until then I am fine with Dimension Strings and Cinematic Studio Strings.


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## Vik (May 15, 2017)

IMO one can get really far with Berlin Strings without any of the expansions.


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## Parsifal666 (May 15, 2017)

muk said:


> No doubt about it. But spending 2 grand on software that I can neither demo nor resell?



This is so true. I'm lucky, I have producer and engineer friends/sometimes employees who have libraries I don't, and I get to mess around with them.

I'm really impressed with the Berlin stuff, they seem like terrific libraries if you're looking for something great and have an even slightly more than good computer. But I'm a Hollywood man, and those instruments I've worked with so much for so long I can get quite similar results. Or maybe I'm putting it wrong, HS already satisfies emulating the music I hear in my head.

I'll pick up Berlin's bundle in the future, but mostly as an appreciative collector (who'll probably have a lot of fun "finding" places for it).

I must ask: are Mural strings vol. 1 and 2 THAT great? Or are some of you referring to Mural Evolutions only? Because I can still pick up Mural strings 1 and 2 for cheap. I mean, are they really that strong a library? Any help would be hugely appreciated, please!


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## EvilDragon (May 15, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> I must ask: are Mural strings vol. 1 and 2 THAT great?



IMHO, yep! However it's Spitfire Symphonic Strings, now. They did away with volumes (also IMHO - for the better).


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## Vik (May 15, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> I must ask: are Mural strings vol. 1 and 2 THAT great? Or are some of you referring to Mural Evolutions only? Because I can still pick up Mural strings 1 and 2 for cheap. I mean, are they really that strong a library? Any help would be hugely appreciated, please!


Is Mural for sale still? I thought it had officially entered RIP mode...
Mural is good if you want to play 'pads'; and unless not having control over portamento speed and volume, maybe you'll like the Mural legatos as well. In general, there are many good long notes in Mural (and maybe short notes as well, I tend to not use them much).


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## Parsifal666 (May 15, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> IMHO, yep! However it's Spitfire Symphonic Strings, now. They did away with volumes (also IMHO - for the better).



I found a great deal on 1 and 2 (the "greatest hits" bundle. I must say, having people like you and @Vik recommend this has got me so close to buying now.


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## Parsifal666 (May 15, 2017)

The only problem I have is, I can get vols. 1 and 2 for under $380 US, but the SSS has got the evolving stuff... and is quite a bit more expensive. I wonder if I should just hold out for SSS.


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## Vik (May 15, 2017)

SSS also has ensemble versions - and smarter legato, which combines many articulations in one instrument. M1+M2 doesn't even have fast runs; you need M3 for that. So I wouldn't buy M1+M2 if I were you, but instead go for SSS or Berlin. (But I haven't tried SSS!).


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## Parsifal666 (May 15, 2017)

Vik said:


> SSS also has ensemble versions - and smarter legato, which combines many articulations in one instrument. M1+M2 doesn't even have fast runs; you need M3 for that. So I wouldn't buy M1+M2 if I were you, but instead go for SSS or Berlin. (But I haven't tried SSS!).



Yes, I see the SSS is pretty broad in scope. It's basically M1 to 3, PLUS. Argh!

SSS seems like both a less expensive and less hungry alternative to Berlin. I've investigated further, and am now hot for the Spitfire...what you two did was basically convert me over to SSS lol!


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## EvilDragon (May 15, 2017)

We've also saved you lots of RAM in process.


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## JohnBMears (May 15, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> The only problem I have is, I can get vols. 1 and 2 for under $380 US, but the SSS has got the evolving stuff... and is quite a bit more expensive. I wonder if I should just hold out for SSS.



If you get Mural 1&2 I assume that you can still upgrade to SSS for a discount. Is that still applicable?


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## Parsifal666 (May 15, 2017)

JohnBMears said:


> If you get Mural 1&2 I assume that you can still upgrade to SSS for a discount. Is that still applicable?



If so I might go for that right now. Thanks for thinking of that, I'll write Spitfire now.



EvilDragon said:


> We've also saved you lots of RAM in process.



Berlin...I'm aware from experience how high quality that library is...but in tht case, I'd have to wait to get a more high powered computer. I _might_ be able to handle it with 16g RAM, plus I do have Samsung ssd usbs. It's just..why buy Berlin knowing it's such a strain, especially when it seems SSS has everything from the Murals, etc plus, and Spitfire (if anyone's noticed) is one of my favorite developers. SSS is revealing progressively more as I watch the videos, I'm learning just how powerful they truly are. 

Speaking of...thanks so much guys, I'm headed back to the 'tube to check out SSS more!


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## Vik (May 15, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> what you two did was basically convert me over to SSS lol!


Or rather, EvilDragon did.  I just warned you against Mural 1/2 as single products. You already know why I prefer BS and why, so I won't repeat that. But don't forget that with full SSS, you're not _that_ far from Berlin Strings in terms of price or gigabytes. I'm not suggesting that you should do this or that, and maybe SSS is just what you need since you already have Hollywood strings.

Re, needing more resources: As you can see in this pic, BS needs more RAM, but that's probably because they have added more samples (in order to offer full legato/portamento control in all dynamic layers etc), and it also contains more code, I guess (due to what seems like more advanced scripting and functions, like being able to crossfade between up to 4 articulations in real time etc). I like that BS uses more samples, but had to upgrade to 32 gb (already when I had Mural).
It's also about...'tone'. Even CSS with it's much lower price has some qualities which Berlin or SSS doesn't have. And since HS already delivers in terms of emulating the music you want to make, things can't go really wrong with a new library anyway!


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## Parsifal666 (May 15, 2017)

Vik said:


> It's also about...'tone'. Even CSS with it's much lower price has some qualities which Berlin or SSS doesn't have. And since HS already delivers in terms of emulating the music you want to make, things can't go really wrong with a new library anyway!



You are so right! I can't help but be especially interested in Evolutions in particular. I think that actually is one of the things that's pulling me more toward SSS.

But yes, HS honestly could handle most of what I want, a new library is mostly just some new inspiration and fun I guess.


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## Vik (May 15, 2017)

How much is the SSS Evolutions add-on?


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## EvilDragon (May 15, 2017)

Vik said:


> As you can see in this pic, BS needs more RAM



That is just RAM load for samples. It is for other things where OT stuff fails compared to SF stuff (object memory, MUCH bigger scripting overhead). SF code is definitely MUCH tightly written and instruments are more efficiently designed (while not really losing in functionality department).


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## Vik (May 15, 2017)

Well, that's where we disagree, I guess, because one of the reasons I bought Berlin was that the legato/portamento sounded so much better, and also because of some of the more advanced functions (disable dynamic layers and auto-adjust the range of others, "Soft Low Layer", 2d-morphing, legato-switch on any kind of long notes in the multi-patches (with different user definable legato types), chain/auto-gain between the mic positions (which also has solo), the fact that in BS the legato volume knob actually works as expected and more). So while I think BS is better in the scripting dept., I also think it sounds really good and have more options (eg. more round robins, and IIRR it also has more than 20 different types of short notes). 

But can Berlin crossfade between vib and non-vib? Nope, not out-of the box. SSS can.


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## Parsifal666 (May 15, 2017)

Vik said:


> How much is the SSS Evolutions add-on?



Oh I must have misspoke, forgive me. I'm pretty positive that Mural 3 Evolutions is part of SSS. I could be wrong. But anyway, that's one of the attractions for me. They integrated all the Murals plus some pretty darn interesting other stuff. I'm being vague because there are some really cool videos of SSS, youtube yielded some seriously enticing results for me.


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## MaxOctane (May 15, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> Oh I must have misspoke, forgive me. I'm pretty positive that Mural 3 Evolutions is part of SSS. I could be wrong. But anyway, that's one of the attractions for me. They integrated all the Murals plus some pretty darn interesting other stuff. I'm being vague because there are some really cool videos of SSS, youtube yielded some seriously enticing results for me.



SSS doesn't have any Evos


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## Parsifal666 (May 16, 2017)

MaxOctane said:


> SSS doesn't have any Evos



I see now, the Evolution is an expansion pack for SSS.

https://www.spitfireaudio.com/shop/a-z/spitfire-symphonic-strings/


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## Vik (May 16, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> I see now, the Evolution is an expansion pack for SSS.


Or at least - it was. Are you sure it's still available? Confused, can't see it listed for sale anywhere...


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## EvilDragon (May 16, 2017)

Evolutions on its own is not available for sale anymore, just as an expansion for SSS now.


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## Parsifal666 (May 16, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> I see now, the Evolution is an expansion pack for SSS.
> 
> https://www.spitfireaudio.com/shop/a-z/spitfire-symphonic-strings/





EvilDragon said:


> Evolutions on its own is not available for sale anymore, just as an expansion for SSS now.



Ohhh. Still, that would be extra nice to have. Hmm, I just got yet another raving review over Spitfire Evo Grid II, so I might just mosey down a different, less expensive, path now.

I thank you both for all the help!


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## Parsifal666 (May 16, 2017)

I feel like a complete dolt. I haven't bought a Spitfire product since Albion One, and received an activation code but oh dear. I have the installation manager installed...but no sign of a download. I don't have any instructions on whether to wait for a download link in the mail, activate something on my account online. I'm completely lost.

This is borderline retarded of me, but all I could think to do was right Spitfire support and send the receipt for Evo Grid 2.

Can somebody help, please? _*DOOOHHHHH!*_


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## coprhead6 (May 16, 2017)

Last time I purchased something it took a few hours for the download to appear in the installation manager.


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## vegetadbz (Nov 12, 2018)

About Spitfire Symphonic Strings...
When it comes to short patches, Spitfire is a joke, Edirol Orchestra is better than that. (Delayed time response on some notes and mixed bartook pluck sound to some of the notes.)
When it comes to legato, Spitfire is a joke, Edirol Orchestra is better than that. (Does not respond to time, some notes respond faster, some later.)
When it comes to sustains / chord play, it is equal to Edirol Orchestra.

Spitfire kills inspiration, later kills will to work on it at all, if it was just legato that delays and needs to start a bit before, but legato needs to start before on particular note, on another note a little bit less before, on next it can start same as other start points...It is a total mess of an library, and plus...same goes for spiccato, staccato etc...Worst library I have ever put my hands on.
I was fooled to buy it, fooled that can be worked around, but no more... its waste of nervs after wasting your money.

I don't know for Berlin String, but I will check it soon at friend of mine house that has this library, and if I see good shorts and playability I will buy it.

I 've seen many string libraries, and neither except musical sampling and sonuscore orchestra had good responding times, mostly those big and expensive libraries are actually the worst....and spitfire is under the bottom of that worst libraries list.

I am staying away from spitfire forever now.

P.S. That Cinematic Studio Strings that you all praise is better than Spitfire Symphonic Strings, but is in my list of the worst....shorts are useless.

That said, I think East West, Orchestral Tools and maybe Vienna are developers that have decent libraries, those others are trash.


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## vegetadbz (Nov 12, 2018)

Vik said:


> Well, that's where we disagree, I guess, because one of the reasons I bought Berlin was that the legato/portamento sounded so much better, and also because of some of the more advanced functions (disable dynamic layers and auto-adjust the range of others, "Soft Low Layer", 2d-morphing, legato-switch on any kind of long notes in the multi-patches (with different user definable legato types), chain/auto-gain between the mic positions (which also has solo), the fact that in BS the legato volume knob actually works as expected and more). So while I think BS is better in the scripting dept., I also think it sounds really good and have more options (eg. more round robins, and IIRR it also has more than 20 different types of short notes).
> 
> But can Berlin crossfade between vib and non-vib? Nope, not out-of the box. SSS can.


Please can you tell how is Berlin on spiccatos, and all around playability, response time etc...


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## Vik (Nov 13, 2018)

vegetadbz said:


> When it comes to short patches, Spitfire is a joke, Edirol Orchestra is better than that. (Delayed time response on some notes and mixed bartook pluck sound to some of the notes.)
> When it comes to legato, Spitfire is a joke, Edirol Orchestra is better than that. (Does not respond to time, some notes respond faster, some later.)
> When it comes to sustains / chord play, it is equal to Edirol Orchestra.
> 
> ...





vegetadbz said:


> Please can you tell how is Berlin on spiccatos, and all around playability, response time etc...


Hi vegetadbz,
first of all – I started this thread back when my only first hand experience with Spitfire was with SSS's predecessor Mural (1&2), which was an incomplete product. I have later upgraded to SSS and SCS and find both useful. For my personal taste, SSS is less useful (in a general sense) than both Berlin Strings and CSS, but can be quite inspirational the way I see it. Some of the legato stuff in SSS is also useful IMO, so I can't agree with your general SF bashing, and I also really like many of the longs in that library.

Here's something I posted a while ago, demonstrating that I missed proper control over portamento volume and length in Mural...



... but in general, I find SSS clearly better than Mural was in this area, and like SCS better than SSS. Regarding Berlin Strings' spicattos/short notes, maybe it would be better to use one of the existing threads for a further discussion (see below)?

One good thing I can say about Berlin Strings and short notes is that they offer more short notes variations than many other libraries do (I think we'll see that most new libraries will offer a lot more short notes than we used to see a few years ago). Chris Hein Ensemble Strings is a good example of that. But in general, it seems to me that user opinions about short notes definitely is a highly subjective matter. 

This thread is from last year, but contains many examples of spiccatos from various libraries - maybe that would be useful for you:
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/string-sample-library-comparison-spiccato.59679/page-4

And here's one of the Soundcloud links, comparing spiccatos from a lot of libraries - not including the SCS example from the page I linked to above - which happen to be one of my favourites (maybe suggesting that you and I happen to have different taste in terms of spicattos?).


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## vegetadbz (Nov 13, 2018)

Vik said:


> Hi vegetadbz,
> first of all – I started this thread back when my only first hand experience with Spitfire was with SSS's predecessor Mural (1&2), which was an incomplete product. I have later upgraded to SSS and SCS and find both useful. For my personal taste, SSS is less useful (in a general sense) than both Berlin Strings and CSS, but can be quite inspirational the way I see it. Some of the legato stuff in SSS is also useful IMO, so I can't agree with your general SF bashing, and I also really like many of the longs in that library.
> 
> Here's something I posted a while ago, demonstrating that I missed proper control over portamento volume and length in Mural...
> ...




Thanks you for detailed answer of yours.
Number 6 is SSS, I recognized it at first, muddy sound with slightly different time start of notes, not good attack, not good release, mic positions or the reverb make those spiccatos useless for me.
Best sounding are Albion One Spiccatos, second are Berlin.
If Berlin is just a little bit more lush sounding, but I guess it can be done by raising high freqs via EQ to get it sounding as the Albion ONE ones.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 13, 2018)

vegetadbz said:


> Thanks you for detailed answer of yours.
> Number 6 is SSS, I recognized it at first, muddy sound with slightly different time start of notes, not good attack, not good release, mic positions or the reverb make those spiccatos useless for me.
> Best sounding are Albion One Spiccatos, second are Berlin.
> If Berlin is just a little bit more lush sounding, but I guess it can be done by raising high freqs via EQ to get it sounding as the Albion ONE ones.


The Spic exposed samples they recorded after the fact are pretty meaty/lush. I find the strings in general need a slight bump in the high end to brighten a bit - Berlin, that is.


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## THE-EXPERT (Sep 5, 2020)

Vik said:


> There were some comparisons on this forum around when Mural and Berlin Strings were launched. Since then, both have been updated and additional volumes have been released from both companies. I ended up with Mural, and based on my sound preferences (based on demos; I don't have Berlin Strings), that was a good choice. But based on playability, user friendliness and how advanced the 'adaptive legato' solutions are, Berlin Strings seem to be better than in Mural. Again - this is based on actually using Mural - but only watching Berlin Strings demos... not a fair comparison. Hence this thread.
> 
> I'm very impressed with the new, expanded adaptive legato in the new solo instruments from Orchestral Tools, and – based on things I've heard and seen eg on YouTube, the Berlin Strings library is also very good at automatically switching between various articulations on the fly, and (important!) this includes switching between the various legato types and all other articulations. Some of this can be done by using combination presets in Mural, or by editing things after they have been recorded. I haven't heard the new Mural combination patches, but from what I already own (M1 and M2), I haven't been able to recreate what I have seen and heard in eg one of the initial Berlin demos.
> 
> ...


We need them all BERLIN SPITFIRE SABLE etc and combine them or pick the beat patch of each library . This is the only way to reach excellence. And after that you add brass and woodwinds and even player you hire if you cannot give your muckup to a real orchestra


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## muziksculp (Sep 5, 2020)

Hendrik-Schwarzer of OT, Replied to my question about the availability of SINE version of Berlin Strings, and the rest of their Berlin Series libraries. Here is a link to the thread. This means that we can expect some further improvements that OT will bring to their Berlin Series running in their SINE engine. I am really looking forward for these Berlin Series libraries to be released in SINE format.






Orchestral Tools: Phoenix Orchestra (single instruments from €7)


Seems like another gem. Looking forward to playing with these. Perhaps logistically impossible but I would have been interested in recordings at Teldex even more so. Japanese instrument library when?




vi-control.net





Quote :

"Hey Muziksculp, we still keep the converting to SINE and made some good progress. We want to make it as good as we can and therefore we take the opportunity to tweak and polish the samples and legatos even more so that you can see it as a content update.
We just released Metropolis Ark 2 and Inspire 2, Collections from the Berlin Series are in the making."


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 5, 2020)

how did this thread get necro'd twice


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## markleake (Sep 5, 2020)

THE-EXPERT said:


> give your muckup to a real orchestra


Let's hope you don't do that!

Why necro this thread, just to comment that someone should use woodwinds and brass? With bad spelling and all.


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## bill5 (Sep 5, 2020)

markleake said:


> Let's hope you don't do that!
> 
> Why necro this thread, just to comment that someone should use woodwinds and brass? With bad spelling and all.


If bad spelling/grammar on message boards bothers you, prepare for a LOT of misery.


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## Akarin (Sep 5, 2020)

Necroposting at its best.

(we are just missing the guy in the hat telling us that neither Spitfire nor OT can do what EWHS does)


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## THE-EXPERT (Sep 5, 2020)

bill5 said:


> If bad spelling/grammar on message boards bothers you, prepare for a LOT of misery.


Sorry English is my second langage. My point is to use the best parts of each library plus real musician if possible Exemple Sable Berlin plus a violon solo in your studio. We all know big budget use everything the mockup to check with the producer than a real orchestra but the mix BOTH a lot of the mockup will be mixed WITH the orchestra . This idea to use VSTto replace is for those without budget and without great vision of using a LARGE palette


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## THE-EXPERT (Sep 5, 2020)

markleake said:


> Let's hope you don't do that!
> 
> Why necro this thread, just to comment that someone should use woodwinds and brass? With bad spelling and all.





markleake said:


> Let's hope you don't do that!
> 
> Why necro this thread, just to comment that someone should use woodwinds and brass? With bad spelling and all.


If there is a way to block someone here your first on the list . This is rude and offensive dude !


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## bill5 (Sep 5, 2020)

THE-EXPERT said:


> Sorry English is my second langage.


Thanks, but no need to apologize to me; I let go of my inner grammar nazi long ago. That said, I found it ironic that the person complaining about bad spelling replied with bad grammar. How's life in that glass house?


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## markleake (Sep 5, 2020)

THE-EXPERT said:


> If there is a way to block someone here your first on the list . This is rude and offensive dude !


Sorry if I came over as offensive for a genuine post. That wasn't intended.

There's been a number of posts over the last few days spamming and necroing old threads with adds and such. It's been a bit anoying. I had assumed you were that guy, sorry. They had some spelling and language issues, so I though you were them.

My apologies again.

Edit: Incidentally, there is a way to block people here, yes. I suggest you get to know people first though; most of us are pretty friendly.


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## markleake (Sep 5, 2020)

bill5 said:


> Thanks, but no need to apologize to me; I let go of my inner grammar nazi long ago. That said, I found it ironic that the person complaining about bad spelling replied with bad grammar. How's life in that glass house?


And I'm curious now... what grammatical faux pas did I make?


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 5, 2020)

plot twist, this is a false flag, all a long winded setup to get markleake blocked by random people over virtually nothing

also buy my brain supplements


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## markleake (Sep 5, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> plot twist, this is a false flag, all a long winded setup to get markleake blocked by random people over virtually nothing
> 
> also buy my brain supplements


lol. Sounds like it, yes! 

I've got to be the most easy-going guy ever, so these posts give me a good laugh.


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## THE-EXPERT (Sep 17, 2020)

wpc982 said:


> on the other hand, the new Nocturne legato is like some of the worst offenders in that department: takes a very large amount of adjustment to get a legato rhythmic motive to line up with other voices.



True we need to put some offset

THE-EXPERT (This nickname is a joke of course this is how my friends calls me, dont take it as a serious and pretentious name, a lot of members here are more ''expert'' than me Thanks )


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