# You're Using Your Limiter WRONG



## tc9000 (Oct 26, 2022)

6 minutes, now I understand Limiters so much better.

EDIT: Why do I like this? I never really understood how (or why) to use the release control on my limiter, unlike pretty much all the rest.

EDIT 2: The actual TLDR is to use an analogue-like clipping stage to do the heavy lifting (heavy limiting?) before using a limiter for 1 or 2 dB's of limiting, mimicking the historical analogue clipping stage that occured when audio was recorded to tape, then mastered. This will make it easier to dial in the release on the limiter to be 'in the pocket'.


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## tc9000 (Oct 26, 2022)

5 Ozone 10 hacks (why does there always have to be a number? its like people need to know this will be concise - oh god heaven help us it's not concise!)

EDIT: Why do I like this? I like the stablizer stuff - specifically how this can be somewhat dangerous - so the pros and the cons.


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## ryans (Oct 26, 2022)

I'll just take your word for it. My principles preclude me from watching a video that uses the term 'Hacks'


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## sostenuto (Oct 26, 2022)

🙈 ....... or Ozone 10 !!


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## Joe_D (Oct 26, 2022)

tc9000 said:


> …why does there always have to be a number?…


Ah, "listicles." "Hmm, how to make an article or video…just list some stuff." It's kind of a lazy and unfocused organizational principle IMO.

I generally refrain from reading or watching listicles.


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## CGR (Oct 26, 2022)

Joe_D said:


> Ah, "listicles." "Hmm, how to make an article or video…just list some stuff." It's kind of a lazy and unfocused organizational principle IMO.
> 
> I generally refrain from reading or watching listicles.


Even worse when they conclude them with a quiz and you end up with testicles.

I’ll see my way out . . .


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## tc9000 (Oct 27, 2022)

Fully agreed - this conforms to the standard youtube format stuff for sure - the clickbait title, the listicles, but the actual content is great. I wish we could just have that guy talking without the formating, but thats how we "pay" for the free content, I think.


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## José Herring (Oct 27, 2022)

ryans said:


> I'll just take your word for it. My principles preclude me from watching a video that uses the term 'Hacks'


I know right!

I soon as I see the word "hack" or the words "quick tips" I immediately think that the person doesn't know what they are talking about.

Like "music theory made easy" or "all the music theory you need to know in 15 minutes" that's the real "hack" right there.

Not casting dispersion on the current video. It may be that he uncovered the secrets of all mixing secrets and distilled them down to 5 easy "hacks". I'll never know because I'll never watch the video.


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## tc9000 (Oct 27, 2022)

José Herring said:


> It may be that he uncovered the secrets of all mixing secrets and distilled them down to 5 easy "hacks".


But he did! and he relays it all in 9 minutes! Nine minutes and you are done with mixing, you'll know all you need to know - guaranteed!*

*Not actually guaranteed


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## tc9000 (Oct 27, 2022)

you know, it's kinda sad that we have this great free platform for sharing knowledge but it kind of perverts that with the listicles, clickbait, thumbnails, and short, concise, punchy vids. i suspect if you don't do that stuff the algorthm will push you down into obscurity, so the only way to get your content found is to 'tow the line'...

reminds me of this guy john reith who had this concept of broadcasting as a way of educating the masses... i wonder what he would have made of the (mainly) garbage tv content we have now...


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## patrick76 (Oct 27, 2022)

People like lists. As far as all the terrible things we have on social media, cable tv, the internet in general, I don’t think listicles are something that would stop me from watching a video or reading an article. I get that seeing the same format over and over can be annoying though.


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## Akarin (Oct 27, 2022)

José Herring said:


> all the music theory you need to know in 15 minutes


That is insane yeah. It took me at least 20 mins to get it all.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Oct 27, 2022)

But even after watching the video, the headline will still continue to say I'm doing it WRONG.


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## MartinH. (Oct 27, 2022)

Overlong recap of audio engineering history, actual audio engineering part of the topic condensed to the point of being nearly useless for learning, no sound examples of how different limiter release times etc. would sound...



ryans said:


> I'll just take your word for it. My principles preclude me from watching a video that uses the term 'Hacks'





José Herring said:


> Not casting dispersion on the current video. It may be that he uncovered the secrets of all mixing secrets and distilled them down to 5 easy "hacks". I'll never know because I'll never watch the video.


Hate to say it, but you guys made the right call imho.






tc9000 said:


> you know, it's kinda sad that we have this great free platform for sharing knowledge but it kind of perverts that with the listicles, clickbait, thumbnails, and short, concise, punchy vids. i suspect if you don't do that stuff the algorthm will push you down into obscurity, so the only way to get your content found is to 'tow the line'...


I never got that feeling from Dan Worrall's videos. Watch his content if you want to learn about these kinds of topics:


https://www.youtube.com/c/DanWorrall/videos




And if you're reaaaaaly patient and can't get enough of talk about clippers and limiters, here is a link to a youtube playlist where Baphometrix talks_ at length_ about making your music louder:

I haven't watched most of them but I did learn some things from the videos I did watch.


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## blaggins (Oct 27, 2022)

Akarin said:


> That is insane yeah. It took me at least 20 mins to get it all.


Y'all are all crazy to spend that kind of time learning music theory, just get Niko's MIDI Chord Pack.


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## gamma-ut (Oct 28, 2022)

So the tip is actually “use a clipper”? And setting up the release time is to “hit the pocket”? Well blow me down, that is such a surprise. All I can say is thanks heavens for the YT auto-transcript which lets you scroll through the excessive preamble.

I suppose the hint to use a clipper is useful though you’d think at some point having seen that people might start to think “maybe there are some things I could do at the stems stage to help this process along and not just squeeze 6dB out of the final limiting stage and wonder why it’s a pumpy, distorted mess”.


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## tc9000 (Oct 28, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> I never got that feeling from Dan Worrall's videos. Watch his content if you want to learn about these kinds of topics:
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/c/DanWorrall/videos
> ...



Huge Dan Worrall fan, here! You are right - he's the antithesis of the listicles / clickbait / thumbnail format. He's not bothered by this insidious demand for glib soundbytes - nor is he afraid to call out lies and cut through marketing hype. Refreshing!

I will check Baphometrix out for sure - thanks!


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## method1 (Oct 28, 2022)

Here's the solution for anyone having problems with setting their limiter









Kevin's Limiter | Make Belive Studio


You ever bought a limiter and say to yourself... "I wish I knew how to &%$#*$ use this thing properly" ...fret no more




www.makebelievestudio.com


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## dgburns (Oct 28, 2022)

but…but… but…

How exactly does he KNOW I’m using my limiter wrong? What sorcery is this that he seems to know all our limiter settings ?

Ah crap, just figured it out, he’s Santa. Man I’m stupid, Santa knows everything. Theose are some big listicle testicles.


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## MartinH. (Oct 29, 2022)

method1 said:


> Here's the solution for anyone having problems with setting their limiter
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that a meme or are they serious about selling a limiter without controls, or audio demos, or description of what it does for 39$? The official manual pdf says: 

_"Kevin’s Limiter makes stuff sound better. Not the cleanest but it just sounds great! It's either off or on! We made this limiter for Kevin!"_

Also this is probably the first audio plugin website that has a quantity dropdown menu for their plugins that goes up to 20. Who buys 20 iLok licenses for this meme?


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## gamma-ut (Oct 29, 2022)

I spent a good ten minutes trying to work out whether it's satire or an actual product. Even now, I'm not entirely sure but the company is an offshoot of a recording studio, has a relationship with Metric Halo and has also done an emulation of a famous mastering EQ so...I think it's real.

They've got an entire bundle of these plugins, including one called Good Math:

_What is GOOD MATH? I have no clue. Call it a gain stage, call it a clipper, hell call it a rounding error just turn up or down each fader until you get the desired result (don’t forget to click the A-hole)._

There's a 30-day demo apparently so it's not a complete pig in a poke.


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## tc9000 (Oct 29, 2022)

method1 said:


> Here's the solution for anyone having problems with setting their limiter
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is.... this is _GOLD_ 😂 But are they laughing _at_ us or _with _us? Hmmmm 🤔

_"It's such a fine line between stupid...and clever. - BJ Buchalter" - David St. Hubbins

The technical achievements that B.J. and his team have accomplished to bring these tools to life amazes me more and more everyday._

_We don’t want you to think that we woke up in the middle of the pandemic and said:_

_“hey, we can make plugins too, and they will be just as good as everyone else’s.”_

_We aligned ourselves with a like minded particle physicist and his family and grinded until we made something we felt was better._


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## Pier-V (Oct 29, 2022)

Ok, honestly, this is next level marketing. The about us page nearly had me in tears at some point.
From what I remember, Embertone did this during the early days, although in a slightly different way, and that's probably the main reason I ended up remembering their products up to the point I eventually decided to try them. So, props to them for being so meta in the internet age.


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## PeterN (Oct 29, 2022)

The technique he uses, to use clipper on the peaks before limiting, is the most recent trend. Lady Gaga does it and also Katy Perry. Now, here also subscribed to this technique. Seems obvious, but we didn't know limiter is compressing and *clipper is actually for cutting*, only recently this is revealed. Like, truth is a force of nature. Can we get the *Fabfilter clipper Pro-1* now? Some of those software clippers are from 1980s, wouldn't it make sense now to jump on this market.


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## gamma-ut (Oct 29, 2022)

It's not new. Mastering engineers have used clipping through the A/D converters on their audio interfaces for years (eg): https://gearspace.com/board/mastering-forum/602576-help-me-clip-my-d-converter.html

If it's a growing trend, it's only because stems at the mixing stage aren't as clean as they used to be (or should be). You can get heavily oversampled clippers like Voxengo's OVC but if the peaks are just things like percussion transients (which they probably are), then any old clipper will do just as long as you don't clip into anything for longer than a few samples.


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## PeterN (Oct 29, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> It's not new. Mastering engineers have used clipping through the A/D converters on their audio interfaces for years (eg): https://gearspace.com/board/mastering-forum/602576-help-me-clip-my-d-converter.html
> 
> If it's a growing trend, it's only because stems at the mixing stage aren't as clean as they used to be (or should be). You can get heavily oversampled clippers like Voxengo's OVC but if the peaks are just things like percussion transients (which they probably are), then any old clipper will do just as long as you don't clip into anything for longer than a few samples.


Yes. But it has only recently been revealed to the common people. The technique manifested itself here on VI also via Trash Pandas prophecy.

Why isn't there a Fabfilter Clipper if they're supposed to be (among) the best, and offer all essential tools for mixing and mastering? How bout Ozone/Neutron...


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## ryst (Oct 29, 2022)

PeterN said:


> Yes. But it has only recently been revealed to the common people. The technique manifested itself here on VI also via Trash Pandas prophecy.
> 
> Why isn't there a Fabfilter Clipper if they're supposed to be (among) the best, and offer all essential tools for mixing and mastering? How bout Ozone/Neutron...


Not true. I’m certainly a “common people” person and have been using a clipper before limiting for years. Maybe not known much on this forum but it’s a technique that’s been known for a long time by “common people”.


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## PeterN (Oct 29, 2022)

ryst said:


> Not true. I’m certainly a “common people” person and have been using a clipper before limiting for years. Maybe not known much on this forum but it’s a technique that’s been known for a long time by “common people”.


Your profession is an *engineer*. Even says on your name card. The secret societies you are part of, have revealed to you all the esoteric tricks. Even Fabfilter was not allowed to make a Clipper.

Certainly not "common people".

Which clipper are you using? Common people is curious...excellent mixes you have...


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## ryst (Oct 30, 2022)

PeterN said:


> Your profession is an *engineer*. Even says on your name card. The secret societies you are part of, have revealed to you all the esoteric tricks. Even Fabfilter was not allowed to make a Clipper.
> 
> Certainly not "common people".
> 
> Which clipper are you using? Common people is curious...excellent mixes you have...


Fair enough...but I don't think I'm anything more than common peeps.

Anyway, I either use Kazrog KClip 3 or Newfangled Audio's Saturate before a limiter.


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## WhiteNoiz (Oct 30, 2022)

Spoiler


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## tc9000 (Oct 30, 2022)

WhiteNoiz said:


> Spoiler



yes, i think that will work perfectly on my next gregorian plainchant / drill mashup


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## vitocorleone123 (Oct 30, 2022)

Is the chain not:
-> saturate/enhance -> clip -> limit -> brickwall (as needed) -> audio out?


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## Jerner (Oct 30, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Is the chain not:
> -> saturate/enhance -> clip -> limit -> brickwall (as needed) -> audio out?


So it is written and so it shall be. We do it as our fathers did before us and their fathers did before them. All praise the sausage.


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## PeterN (Oct 30, 2022)

Nobody wants a compressor anymore. Its like a hotmail account.


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## tc9000 (Oct 30, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Is the chain not:
> -> saturate/enhance -> clip -> limit -> brickwall (as needed) -> audio out?


Ah - now you're bringing saturation and brickwall limiting into it - I'm even more unqualified to comment 😂

I did note that in The Analog Vlog's vid, he offers an example chain:

Ozone Tape
AMEK 200
SPL Iron
Oxford Inflator
Fabfilter Pro 2

I can't reproduce the whole chain, but I've been playing with the below and getting better results than before, not that that means much:

Ozone Tape
AMEK 200
Acustica Audio Coral
Oxford Inflator
TDR Limiter 6 GE


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## proggermusic (Oct 30, 2022)

I dearly wish there were as many YT videos out there about how to actually hear and understand root movement and chord quality as there are for compression, limiting, and EQ. For most students, the production steps are the easy part, they're relatively straightforward and easy to measure. But becoming a genuinely good composer/songwriter involves developing a deep, intuitive, natural, and fully aural relationship with intervals and rhythm.

I can't tell you how many people I've worked with in the last couple years that understand every nuance of a sophisticated compressor but can't hear the root movement of a simple song. It boggles the mind.

Sorry for the grumpy rant, I'll see myself out! 🍻


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## Henu (Oct 30, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> If it's a growing trend


It was a bit bigger thing some time ago, and also divides opinions quite hard. I know engineers who swear by it, and engineers who think it's a joke and only worsens the sound. Personally, I fall to the latter category myself most of the time.


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## tc9000 (Oct 30, 2022)

proggermusic said:


> I dearly wish there were as many YT videos out there about how to actually hear and understand root movement and chord quality as there are for compression, limiting, and EQ. For most students, the production steps are the easy part, they're relatively straightforward and easy to measure. But becoming a genuinely good composer/songwriter involves developing a deep, intuitive, natural, and fully aural relationship with intervals and rhythm.
> 
> I can't tell you how many people I've worked with in the last couple years that understand every nuance of a sophisticated compressor but can't hear the root movement of a simple song. It boggles the mind.
> 
> Sorry for the grumpy rant, I'll see myself out! 🍻


Great point: if the composition is beautiful, everything else is going to fall into place; and, if it's not, no amount of mixing magic can fix that. Beyond that - beautiful performances, on beatiful intruments - e.g. great source material can't hurt either. On the compositional stuff, Baphometrix (thanks to @MartinH. for making me aware of them BTW) has a great couple of (possibly foundational but very relevant to me!) videos on:

Chord Theory Pt. 1 of 2 - Using Scaler for Modal Interchange (don't worry scaler features heavily, but this is all about the theory, not the tool):


Chord Theory Pt. 2 of 2 - Half Cadences and Endless Progressions:


In _Chord Theory Pt. 1 of 2 - Using Scaler for Modal Interchange, _Baphometrix references _Modal Interchange_, by _Music with Myles_:


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## ryst (Oct 30, 2022)

proggermusic said:


> I dearly wish there were as many YT videos out there about how to actually hear and understand root movement and chord quality as there are for compression, limiting, and EQ. For most students, the production steps are the easy part, they're relatively straightforward and easy to measure. But becoming a genuinely good composer/songwriter involves developing a deep, intuitive, natural, and fully aural relationship with intervals and rhythm.
> 
> I can't tell you how many people I've worked with in the last couple years that understand every nuance of a sophisticated compressor but can't hear the root movement of a simple song. It boggles the mind.
> 
> Sorry for the grumpy rant, I'll see myself out! 🍻


I hear ya. I only wanted to learn engineering a long time ago in order to record and mix my own music. Even now, I couldn't explain half the stuff I do with eq or compression like some people can. It never interested me enough other than how to figure out to make it work the way I want to hear it. 

It's always been and always will be about the music to me. Although mixing and mastering is a big part of my career, I still can't even listen to a song in a technical way unless someone asks me to. Otherwise, I always listen to music as a fan of music first and foremost.


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## MartinH. (Oct 30, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Is the chain not:
> -> saturate/enhance -> clip -> limit -> brickwall (as needed) -> audio out?


And every "->" is an instance of OTT, correct? 




PeterN said:


> Nobody wants a compressor anymore. Its like a hotmail account.


The compressor just is on every track by default, so no one mentions them anymore (do you put those before or after the clipper on every track though?). And then in addition you need a sidechain compressor on a bus to make the kick stand out. And one on the reverb send. And maybe one on the master before the clipper? Gotta hit your -6.66 LUFs somehow, right? 
Only joking of course... or am I?




proggermusic said:


> I can't tell you how many people I've worked with in the last couple years that understand every nuance of a sophisticated compressor but can't hear the root movement of a simple song. It boggles the mind.
> 
> Sorry for the grumpy rant, I'll see myself out!


You are spot on though, I'm pretty much one of those. If you happen to know a good series that teaches that "composer hearing", I'm all ears, pun intended. 




tc9000 said:


> (thanks to @MartinH. for making me aware of them BTW) has a great couple of (possibly foundational but very relevant to me!) videos on:
> 
> Chord Theory Pt. 1 of 2 - Using Scaler for Modal Interchange (don't worry scaler features heavily, but this is all about the theory, not the tool):


Well, thanks to you too! I had no idea he also does theory videos, thank you for making me aware.


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## PeterN (Oct 30, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> compressor on a bus to make the kick stand out. And one on the reverb send.


Never ever thought about putting a compressor on the reverb send. The idea is interesting - isn't it.

It even makes sense, does it. I learned to cut the reverb EQ in an empty Andalucian house, when I heard the boomy low end there, bouncing from the old Andalusian stone walls. The acoustic "treatment" exaggerated the faults, which was a good thing. You could really hear the f-up. That's all I did to reverb send - cut the EQ, ie. I unequalised it. But never heard about compressing reverb. 

Well.... why dont the reverbs come with compressor? Could be the last button in the reverb, just before output button.


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## MartinH. (Oct 30, 2022)

PeterN said:


> Never ever thought about putting a compressor on the reverb send. The idea is interesting - isn't it.
> 
> It even makes sense, does it. I learned to cut the reverb EQ in an empty Andalucian house, when I heard the boomy low end there, bouncing from the old Andalusian stone walls. The acoustic "treatment" exaggerated the faults, which was a good thing. You could really hear the f-up. That's all I did to reverb send - cut the EQ, ie. I unequalised it. But never heard about compressing reverb.
> 
> Well.... why dont the reverbs come with compressor? Could be the last button in the reverb, just before output button.



What I meant specifically is sidechain compression on the reverb send, so that the dry signal ducks the reverb to avoid the overall mix getting too muddy from all the reverb, but still having a nice tail when there is no dry signal. Compared to compressing both reverb and dry signal together this has the advantage of not messing with the dynamics of the dry signal. Although sometimes you might want that and it may make more sense to have the compressor treat both together for glue or whatever. 
Some reverbs have that sidechain compression/reverb ducking built in as far as I know, but I don't know which ones. 
It's usually good to roll off a bit of highs and lows from the dry signal before it goes into the reverb. Doesn't hurt to have another EQ after the reverb to cut out unwanted frequency buildups, like you described.


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## Stringtree (Oct 30, 2022)

Okay. Honest question. How was this lead vocal done in 1951?


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## vitocorleone123 (Oct 30, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> And every "->" is an instance of OTT, correct?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nah. God Particle. Because if one particle of a god is magic, 12 must be ungodly good.


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## Jerner (Oct 30, 2022)

PeterN said:


> Never ever thought about putting a compressor on the reverb send. The idea is interesting - isn't it.
> 
> It even makes sense, does it. I learned to cut the reverb EQ in an empty Andalucian house, when I heard the boomy low end there, bouncing from the old Andalusian stone walls. The acoustic "treatment" exaggerated the faults, which was a good thing. You could really hear the f-up. That's all I did to reverb send - cut the EQ, ie. I unequalised it. But never heard about compressing reverb.


Instead of EQing reverb sends, try a heavy de-esser before the reverb. Ducking reverbs and delays with the input signal is also amazing.


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## Russell Anderson (Oct 30, 2022)

Joe_D said:


> Ah, "listicles." "Hmm, how to make an article or video…just list some stuff." It's kind of a lazy and unfocused organizational principle IMO.
> 
> I generally refrain from reading or watching listicles.


Thank you! THANK YOU! I am so happy I'm not the only one who hates the organizationally-useless, arbitrary listing! Fit it into a god damned framework for understanding the topic! I don't need to know 5 random-ass things about compression! I WANT TO KNOW HOW TO COMPRESS GOD DA

anyway yeah it's annoyed me for some time

I should just get on youtube and make the video content I want to see instead of complaining


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## Joe_D (Oct 30, 2022)

Russell Anderson said:


> Thank you! THANK YOU! I am so happy I'm not the only one who hates the organizationally-useless, arbitrary listing! Fit it into a god damned framework for understanding the topic! I don't need to know 5 random-ass things about compression! I WANT TO KNOW HOW TO COMPRESS GOD DA
> 
> anyway yeah it's annoyed me for some time
> 
> I should just get on youtube and make the video content I want to see instead of complaining


Maybe you could make a video of "10 things I hate about listicles!"


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## Russell Anderson (Oct 30, 2022)

Joe_D said:


> Maybe you could make a video of "10 things I hate about listicles!"


How many of the list items should be nonsense? The 9th and 10th will be of course to smash that like button and subscribe, it really helps out the channel!

Maybe I should also include 17 tips despite the title? And 3 bonus tips about... gardening, with the third bonus being about tax filing, and the video ends before I finish the sent

Woops, we're talking about things we hate about listicles, not tips. But maybe, honestly, there is a cogent video to be made there about talking about listicles and the spotty learning of making music, or anything else...


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## Akarin (Nov 1, 2022)

proggermusic said:


> I dearly wish there were as many YT videos out there about how to actually hear and understand root movement and chord quality


There are. 



proggermusic said:


> as there are for compression, limiting, and EQ. For most students, the production steps are the easy part, they're relatively straightforward and easy to measure


That's why everyone can become as skilled as Alan Meyerson with a few YT vids.


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