# Any good composition courses (classical music)?



## mediumaevum (Feb 9, 2019)

I really liked how the Evenant course avoided the sheet music notation, and kept it at a PianoRoll-equivalent way of explaining the notes and composition in general.

However, the course was not in-depth enough for my taste. I want to be able to compose music like Ralph Vaughan Williams, like this:



- taught using FL Studio's PianoRoll or something similar, please avoid the use of sheet music, as I am not familiar with it and it is too late for me to learn to read sheet music.

More specifially I want to be able to use the short non-staccato notes in my compositions. Something like an arpeggiating countermelody, but not staccato or spiccato, and when to use it, when to pause such a thing (because it can get damn annoying when used too much) and when to use high violin counter melodies on top of the main melody, perhaps played by a flute.

All these thing I'd like some theory to explain, using techniques I think most of us computer musicians are familiar with.

Any ideas?
Preferably free youtube-courses. There's plenty, but most of it are rubbish.


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## D Halgren (Feb 9, 2019)

mediumaevum said:


> I really liked how the Evenant course avoided the sheet music notation, and kept it at a PianoRoll-equivalent way of explaining the notes and composition in general.
> 
> However, the course was not in-depth enough for my taste. I want to be able to compose music like Ralph Vaughan Williams, like this:
> 
> ...



I'm sure you probably already know this one, but it seems perfect for you.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_CyR8Aqfl45kzFIDeMr-CQ


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## 5Lives (Feb 9, 2019)

Was also going to suggest Alex's channel. I don't think I've seen any courses apart from Evenant that spend time in the piano roll (I'm also taking it now because I liked that type of teaching).


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Feb 9, 2019)

mediumaevum said:


> please avoid the use of sheet music, as I am not familiar with it and it is too late for me to learn to read sheet music.



I'm really sorry to be that guy but... Is it too late, or are you too lazy ?


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## mediumaevum (Feb 9, 2019)

whitewasteland said:


> I'm really sorry to be that guy but... Is it too late, or are you too lazy ?


Well, good point...


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## dzilizzi (Feb 9, 2019)

whitewasteland said:


> I'm really sorry to be that guy but... Is it too late, or are you too lazy ?


I actually get this - sheet music is not the same as a piano roll. And depending on how your articulations are set up, it can be really different. Now, maybe a class on how to interpret sheet music to a piano roll? 

I can read basic sheet music for piano and voice. It isn't too hard. But when you start getting into articulations for different instruments? It gets very confusing. And it is a lot to remember. As a hobbyist, I just want to make music in the limited time I have to play.

However, if you want to make a living at this? You really should learn.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Feb 9, 2019)

I am a terrible reader myself and at this point, reading an orchestral score is pretty hard to me - I can decipher it with a bit of concentration but it doesn't "speak" to me like MIDI does. I have become so familiar with that "Piano roll" view that I can instantly identify a chord and its form, like minor, major, diminished, augmented, just by looking at the whole ensemble. Like when you're reading a word, you're not reading every letter.

So, why bother learning to read sheet music ? Just because it's how music has been written for a very long time  We have an amazing endless legacy of scores at our disposal that helps us understanding music better.

If you're a hobbyist, I think there is no need to have a perfectly fluent reading. But having the basics, like @dzilizzi said being able to read basic sheet music for piano and voice could really do no harm


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## dzilizzi (Feb 9, 2019)

musictheory.net has some great learning tools where you can quiz yourself on it.


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## Leon Willett (Feb 9, 2019)

Hey guys, sorry to hijack the thread, but anyone know of any good courses on becoming a chess Grand Master? 

I'd like to play like Kasparov, or maybe Magnus Carlsen. 

I'm thinking of giving it maybe 2 weeks, 3 tops. 

Free stuff only please, and bear in mind I don't understand when they say stuff like "bishop to a3" and I don't want to spend 20 minutes to learn what that means, so I would rather it be expressed as "the horsie goes to the black square beside the one with the pointy hat" or "the one that looks like a castle kills the horsie over there". 

I watched two and a half videos on youtube and they were rubbish. Also a friend gave me "Grandmaster Preparation" by Lyev Polugayevsky, perhaps the best chess book of all time, but it's like 200 pages or some shit so fuk dat shiat, AMIRITE?!?! lullululululuulu 

Any ideas?


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## Saxer (Feb 9, 2019)

Learning to read sheet music feels like school, looking at the piano roll is the nerdy look of spare time spent at the computer. On the other hand: we learned to read at school and now you are reading this. So it's not that hard as it looks. Takes some time though. Like composing.
But I don't think it's necessary to read score to compose. Knowledge of chords and modes and styles and instruments and rhythms and keys is more important. You need score reading and writing to communicate with other musicians. For communication with the computer piano roll is ok.
But I like high violin counter melodies played by a flute.


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## synergy543 (Feb 9, 2019)

mediumaevum said:


> please avoid the use of sheet music, as I am not familiar with it and it is too late for me to learn to read sheet music.
> 
> More specifially I want to be able to use the short non-staccato notes in my compositions. Something like an arpeggiating countermelody, but not staccato or spiccato, and when to use it, when to pause such a thing (because it can get damn annoying when used too much) and when to use high violin counter melodies on top of the main melody, perhaps played by a flute.




So you don't read music but you already composed, harmonized orchestrated and realized piece below?


You apparently have quite a good ear.

You seem to be getting quite a lot of mileage out of your "intuition" and libs already. Pretty good sense of timing, phrasing and dynamic arcs too. And pretty good 3D skills with Blender too. Almost too good!

I agree with dzilizzi that musictheory.net is a great place where you can learn skills such as how to read.

Please share a bit on how you accomplish this. Please tell us how you composed, harmonized, orchestrated and realized this?


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## kevthurman (Feb 9, 2019)

I am going to tell you right now that there is no way to get better at composing music that does not involve learning to read music. Either you are so good at using your ears and midi editing that you can compose as well as all the greats, who _all_ studied music extensively, or you're delusional. I see a lot of people ask questions like this in this forum and other places and it's honestly insulting. Would you ask how to become a physicist without knowing how to write and read equations? No! Then why do you think you can compose music without learning to read and write it first?


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## mikeh-375 (Feb 10, 2019)

whitewasteland said:


> So, why bother learning to read sheet music ? Just because it's how music has been written for a very long time  We have an amazing endless legacy of scores at our disposal that helps us understanding music better.




Except you will never fully understand how far your creativity could go and what you are truly capable of. I'm not being a theory dictator here (well not much..), but if folk put their mind to proper learning, they will find that they start to find their true capabilities and voice.
If you are in the business of composing orchestral music believe me, you need to know what you are doing to do it to the highest levels and to achieve personal highs and that does not come from youtube or any other quick fix.
The saddest part about composition and computers is that how on earth do you think you could learn music better without knowing its technique and theory - I mean where else is there an attitude like that to a profession????? Are we at the stage whereby expert knowledge, legacy and learning is passed over for the easy route? (that leads nowhere other than same old same old). Of course you can write without theory but you can, in a lot of cases I'm sure, do so much better with it...seriously, why would it be anything else?


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## novicecomposer (Feb 10, 2019)

mediumaevum said:


> please avoid the use of sheet music


Humans are highly adaptable. I used to write music by ear and looking at midi notes only but now I can't write a single note without scores. Can't work with messy midi data at all. Get free scores from imslp.org and learn how great composers in the past did what they did. Their level of orchestration is way beyond all the shit tutorials on YouTube.


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## Maximvs (Feb 10, 2019)

I don't mean to patronize in any way... It is never too late to learn something you are passionate about. Learning to read music will open up so many opportunities and routes in your musical journey. It will require effort... for sure... the reward(s) though are going to be so massive. My two cents, Max T.


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## BenG (Feb 10, 2019)

mediumaevum said:


> I want to be able to compose music like Ralph Vaughan Williams, like this:



...I mean, I went to school for music and I still can't write like that


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## mediumaevum (Feb 10, 2019)

kevthurman said:


> I am going to tell you right now that there is no way to get better at composing music that does not involve learning to read music. Either you are so good at using your ears and midi editing that you can compose as well as all the greats, who _all_ studied music extensively, or you're delusional. I see a lot of people ask questions like this in this forum and other places and it's honestly insulting. Would you ask how to become a physicist without knowing how to write and read equations? No! Then why do you think you can compose music without learning to read and write it first?



Thank you... well, that was one big deja-vu, as I've also been told this elsewhere. It's just that I find it really, really difficult to learn to read it.

Seems like there is no other way around this than to learn this stuff.

So, which youtube-channels would you recommend to teach me this? I prefer to keep expenses at a minimum level, preferably free.


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## mediumaevum (Feb 10, 2019)

synergy543 said:


> So you don't read music but you already composed, harmonized orchestrated and realized piece below?
> 
> 
> You apparently have quite a good ear.
> ...




I did this, and no, I can't read sheet music. I don't know if I have a good ear, but maybe I do have it, though I don't know what I'm doing as I know very little theory. I did the Blender 3D-picture of this cathedral (fantasy, non-existing) as well, yes. It took me years to learn this stuff, the hard way - by intuition and by youtube tutorials.

I'm glad you like it, it could be better, and I want to become better skilled.

If you want some "proof" that I composed this, here is the original version I composed back in 2015. The sheet score is probably wrong, so ignore that - I had some software (I think FL Studio or MuseScore) convert the MIDI-data into score.



I composed it by playing on my keyboard (not a midi-keyboard, but the one I'm typing this text with). I couldn't play piano at the time of writing that stuff either. I just played around.

I have zero musical education - whatsoever.
I may have a good ear, but I do not know what or why I'm doing the harmonization the way I do. I just listen if it feels "right".


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## ptram (Feb 10, 2019)

Not exactly an answer to the original question, but learning how to read a music score is all contained in this agile book. Not free, unfortunately, but can be had used for around one dollar:

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/title/introducing-music/author/otto-karolyi/

As for composing like Vaughan Williams: I admit not being able to do it, even if I have a lot of articulations in my sound libraries. Maybe I should look on YouTube a bit better, or find a better library to download.

Paolo


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## HeliaVox (Feb 10, 2019)

I loved the Write Like Mozart class. 

https://www.coursera.org/learn/classical-composition


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## synergy543 (Feb 10, 2019)

mediumaevum said:


> I have zero musical education - whatsoever.
> I may have a good ear, but I do not know what or why I'm doing the harmonization the way I do. I just listen if it feels "right".



I think everyone here has given you good advice, even Leon Willet who is a top-notch orchestrator. It takes dedication and work, but if you love music, you'll be rewarded handsomely for your efforts. Working with a teacher is always best, but if that's not an option, you could learn on your own if you're diligent enough. A piano book to start with:
https://ia800102.us.archive.org/6/items/john-thompson-piano-1/john-thompson-piano-1.pdf

You can find the following series here (under pdf)
https://archive.org/details/204758646JohnThompsonModernCourseForPiano5thGrade

You can find other scores on IMSLP such as Bela Bartok's book for Children.
https://imslp.org/wiki/For_Children,_Sz.42_(Bartók,_Béla)

On the internet, the course HeliaVox suggests above is top notch and free. And Theory.net for additional knowledge and reading practice (check settings on the upper right).

Vaughan Williams has some simple piano and choral pieces too but this is not the place to start.


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## Leandro Gardini (Feb 10, 2019)

Want to compose like Vaughan Williams but don't want to read score?

Well, reading scores is your first step to learn Vaughan Williams.


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## ed buller (Feb 10, 2019)

sorry...I agree with Leon. You need to study...full stop. Vaughn Williams was a freaking Genius....AND he studied....A LOT !



start with this

best

ed


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## mediumaevum (Feb 11, 2019)

Someone should make a PianoRoll to Sheet score tutorial. I'm sure a lot of people on this forum including myself would benefit from such a tutorial.


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## aaronventure (Feb 21, 2019)

It'll take you two weeks to learn to read music. Two weeks, tops. Two weeks from now, you can still be searching the internet for free videos from questionable sources, or you can be reading music.

If you want to write like Vaughan Williams, here's what you do:

Transcribe the pieces you like, then compare to the score. Note what you got wrong, listen again with the context of new (correct) information. Repeat.

... and that's it. No one will tell you a secret trick that he used. You can try and con your way around it, but why? I mean, why? Why would you want to go and waste years and years reinventing the wheel? It's already been done. Thousands of years ago. You want to build spaceships, that's cool. But learn to build a car first. And you don't have to reinvent it. The study material is all there for you to read.

Luckily for you, a LOT of RVW's music is available on IMSLP.com. All of the symphonies, all of his most popular pieces and concertos.

It's all right there for you. I can't explain how lucky we are to live in the age with resources like this available. It has never, in the history of man, been easier to study music than it is today. Free high quality scores that you can't ruin with coffee or ink. Free high quality recordings on Spotify and YouTube. 

Free or rather cheap tools to convert your ideas into actual sound, right there for you to repeat as many times as you wish. This is by far the easiest and most effective way. Feed the data to your brain and let it do the crunching. It's all right there in the music and the sheets.

If you don't believe me, pick one piece or movement from RVW. Anything. Try to transcribe it. Actually you know what, for this first one, just copy it into Sibelius or Musescore (Musescore is free). Copy it from the PDF you get from IMSLP. You'll learn to read notation and learn a lot about RVW's writing, and composition and orchestration in general. More than you could learn if you watched all the YouTube videos on music theory (because with their view numbers, the world should be full of Mozarts, and it isn't because people don't want to put in the work). Copy every single note, even if it takes you two weeks. Then come back and tell me I'm full of shit.


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