# Score editor and DAW combo



## G-Sun (Sep 6, 2013)

Hi!

What do you recommend for Score editor and DAW combo?
Preferably cheap.
A Score editor with decent sound-generation, could be the ticket as well.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 6, 2013)

G-Sun @ Fri Sep 06 said:


> Hi!
> 
> What do you recommend for Score editor and DAW combo?
> Preferably cheap.
> A Score editor with decent sound-generation, could be the ticket as well.



If you are on a Mac, obviously Logic Pro for $199. There is even a good book on the score editor by some guy named Jay Asher


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## G-Sun (Sep 6, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Sep 06 said:


> G-Sun @ Fri Sep 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi!
> ...


Ah, sorry, PC


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## SamGarnerStudios (Sep 6, 2013)

I never could get accustomed to any of the different score editors in the several DAW's I've tried. But the best built in score editor I think goes to Cubase.


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## G-Sun (Sep 6, 2013)

SamGarnerStudios @ Fri Sep 06 said:


> I never could get accustomed to any of the different score editors in the several DAW's I've tried. But the best built in score editor I think goes to Cubase.


Yes, I've been looking at Cubase.
Seems very good for midi and score.
The LE version is affordable, but seems like lacking many score-functions.
Pro-version is just to expensive for me.

Guess I'll have to see if I can get the Reaper MuseScore combo to work.


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## rgames (Sep 6, 2013)

Note that the score editors in DAW's are not really intended for detailed score work - they're just there as a handy tool for music production. You can use the DAW editors for very simple music but they quickly become cumbersome for a lot of printed music tasks (e.g. managing the relationship between the full score and individual parts).

So if your goal is to produce printed music then a DAW might not work for you. The dedicated notation software packages are much better suited to that task.

If money is no object then get both. If money is an issue then decide what you really want to do: notation will take you down one route and production will take you down another.

rgames


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## G-Sun (Sep 6, 2013)

rgames @ Fri Sep 06 said:


> Note that the score editors in DAW's are not really intended for detailed score work - they're just there as a handy tool for music production. You can use the DAW editors for very simple music but they quickly become cumbersome for a lot of printed music tasks (e.g. managing the relationship between the full score and individual parts).
> 
> So if your goal is to produce printed music then a DAW might not work for you. The dedicated notation software packages are much better suited to that task.
> 
> ...


Yes, I know.
I'm mainly a DAW-user, but sometimes I compose for score.
So, then I just need sound-generator when arranging/composing.
But then again, sometimes I'll accompany the score with audio.


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## GrimeBrett (Sep 6, 2013)

I will agree with Richard. If you want to do both, then it would definitely be best to get a dedicated notation program and a dedicated production program. The score editor in Cubase 7 isn't terrible, but I find it nearly impossible to get any real work done with it.
If getting both is out of your price range right away, consider getting the "watered down" versions (like Finale Allegro or Cubase Artist) first, because many companies will provide you an upgrade path from there. Just be sure to check if your company offers special upgrade pricing. 
You could also consider looking for used copies on eBay (just make sure you're buying the license, not just the media). 

Good luck!


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## G-Sun (Sep 6, 2013)

GrimeBrett @ Fri Sep 06 said:


> I will agree with Richard. If you want to do both, then it would definitely be best to get a dedicated notation program and a dedicated production program. The score editor in Cubase 7 isn't terrible, but I find it nearly impossible to get any real work done with it.
> If getting both is out of your price range right away, consider getting the "watered down" versions (like Finale Allegro or Cubase Artist) first, because many companies will provide you an upgrade path from there. Just be sure to check if your company offers special upgrade pricing.
> You could also consider looking for used copies on eBay (just make sure you're buying the license, not just the media).
> 
> Good luck!


Thanks!
Is it Finale PrintMusic you're thinking of?
Cubase Artist is as limited for score as the LE-version, but of course more DAW-features.

Yes, I'll go for a dedicated notation program beside Reaper. I'll just see how good workflow I can get switching back and forth.
I'll try MuseScore first, seems like a good notation tool.


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## GrimeBrett (Sep 6, 2013)

G-Sun @ Fri Sep 06 said:


> GrimeBrett @ Fri Sep 06 said:
> 
> 
> > I will agree with Richard. If you want to do both, then it would definitely be best to get a dedicated notation program and a dedicated production program. The score editor in Cubase 7 isn't terrible, but I find it nearly impossible to get any real work done with it.
> ...



Ah, yes. You're right. One of their entry-level versions used to be called Allegro. Now it seems they are PrintMusic and SongWriter. I've never used either, but I'd probably encourage you to stay away from SongWriter. 
All of the MakeMusic products offer a free trial. I'd encourage you to check them out. There is a bit of a learning curve (at least with the 2008 version I'm using), but once you figure it out you'll be composing and editing without even thinking about the software.


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## Arbee (Sep 6, 2013)

I know this doesn't fit the cheap criteria here but the integrated combo of Pro Tools and Sibelius on PC works really well for me.

.


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## Darthmorphling (Sep 6, 2013)

G-Sun @ Fri Sep 06 said:


> GrimeBrett @ Fri Sep 06 said:
> 
> 
> > I will agree with Richard. If you want to do both, then it would definitely be best to get a dedicated notation program and a dedicated production program. The score editor in Cubase 7 isn't terrible, but I find it nearly impossible to get any real work done with it.
> ...



I have never used it, but on the Reaper forums there was a plugin being developed to integrate Musescore with Reaper.


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## Darthmorphling (Sep 6, 2013)

G-Sun @ Fri Sep 06 said:


> GrimeBrett @ Fri Sep 06 said:
> 
> 
> > I will agree with Richard. If you want to do both, then it would definitely be best to get a dedicated notation program and a dedicated production program. The score editor in Cubase 7 isn't terrible, but I find it nearly impossible to get any real work done with it.
> ...



I have never used it, but on the Reaper forums there was a plugin being developed to integrate Musescore with Reaper.


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## park bench (Sep 6, 2013)

It doesn't/hasn't work with the latest release of reaper.


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## StevenOBrien (Sep 6, 2013)

Not sure if this is what you're looking for, but I write all my music in Sibelius and have it wired to REAPER via virtual MIDI cables (using loopMIDI).


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## G-Sun (Sep 7, 2013)

StevenOBrien @ Sat Sep 07 said:


> Not sure if this is what you're looking for, but I write all my music in Sibelius and have it wired to REAPER via virtual MIDI cables (using loopMIDI).


No, that's something I'd be interested in.
The score editor needs a midi send to hardware option or something then, doesn't it?
I see MusScore has JackMidi outdata awailable, but that's for Linux only isn't it?

How do you deal with playback sync?


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## G-Sun (Sep 7, 2013)

Darthmorphling @ Fri Sep 06 said:


> I have never used it, but on the Reaper forums there was a plugin being developed to integrate Musescore with Reaper.


Yes, but that's view only, nut usable for score editor output.
I've been looking into how MuseScore works as external editor for Reaper midi,
but haven't really figured it out (http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php?p= ... ostcount=1)
Anyway, that's not gonna work for score output.


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## G-Sun (Sep 7, 2013)

GrimeBrett @ Fri Sep 06 said:


> Ah, yes. You're right. One of their entry-level versions used to be called Allegro. Now it seems they are PrintMusic and SongWriter. I've never used either, but I'd probably encourage you to stay away from SongWriter.
> All of the MakeMusic products offer a free trial. I'd encourage you to check them out. There is a bit of a learning curve (at least with the 2008 version I'm using), but once you figure it out you'll be composing and editing without even thinking about the software.


I'm familiar with Finale 2008. It's good but expensive..
And I wouldn't know if DAW - score integration would work better than MuseScore.


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## G-Sun (Sep 7, 2013)

I see Notion has ReWire-support
http://www.notionmusic.com/products/notion4.html
Not to expensive either.
Could be the thing.

Anyone used it?


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## G-Sun (Sep 7, 2013)

What I basically need is decent playback for the score editor,
so I'm able to hear what I do.

Seems like MuseScore is no option then (only one voice)
and Notion could be fine, but the I wouldn't need the DAW-integration.
I'll just try Finale Notepad as it has multiple voices and seems to be able to do SATB,
and that's my first task


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## StevenOBrien (Sep 7, 2013)

G-Sun @ Sat Sep 07 said:


> StevenOBrien @ Sat Sep 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure if this is what you're looking for, but I write all my music in Sibelius and have it wired to REAPER via virtual MIDI cables (using loopMIDI).
> ...


There is no playback sync with this sort of setup (You could probably do it that way with ReWire though, if you really wanted to). Sibelius sends MIDI signals, and REAPER generates the sounds live. Once I want to mix/render the piece, I record the MIDI data being sent from Sibelius into REAPER and work from there.


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## G-Sun (Sep 7, 2013)

StevenOBrien @ Sat Sep 07 said:


> There is no playback sync with this sort of setup (You could probably do it that way with ReWire though, if you really wanted to). Sibelius sends MIDI signals, and REAPER generates the sounds live. Once I want to mix/render the piece, I record the MIDI data being sent from Sibelius into REAPER and work from there.


Sounds perfect.
Only downside for me is the price-tag of Sibelius..


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 7, 2013)

Of course Sibelius is better, but by no means is it a slam dunk that score editors in sequencers aren't good enough for detailed score work. I'd have no problem producing a perfectly presentable score in Logic.

If you write like Penderecki or Frank Zappa's later stuff, of course, and if you want your score to look like a professional engraver did it, okay. Short of that, though, I wouldn't be quick to dismiss either the capabilities or the convenience of all integrated notation sections just because they're in a sequencer rather than stand-alone.


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## nradisch (Sep 8, 2013)

If you're interested in going the "Score editor with decent sound generation" route, then Sibelius with the new Wallander NotePerformer plugin is good.

--Neil


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## DaddyO (Sep 8, 2013)

G-Sun @ Sat Sep 07 said:


> I see Notion has ReWire-support
> http://www.notionmusic.com/products/notion4.html
> Not to expensive either.
> Could be the thing.
> ...



I use Notion, but not with rewire. I use it strictly for initial arrangement, and for that purpose it works great for me.


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## G-Sun (Sep 8, 2013)

DaddyO @ Mon Sep 09 said:


> G-Sun @ Sat Sep 07 said:
> 
> 
> > I see Notion has ReWire-support
> ...


Ok, thanks!


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## G-Sun (Sep 8, 2013)

Checking MuseScore a little better,
and it has different sound-instruments for different staffs.
So, then I'll go for MuseScore now.
Then, export midi into Reaper for some easy audio-export I guess.

Thanks!


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## ed buller (Sep 8, 2013)

Sibelius and Wallander's Note Performer really is very good. Yes most DAW's have some sort of score editor but I personally find Sibelius very quick and easy. And Note performer has really changed the game I think

e


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## G-Sun (Oct 14, 2013)

Still a little unsure about what workflow to go for.
If I had the money I would buy Sibelius and Cubase, I guess. But that's just insane expensive.

For composing I like midi-clips and piano-roll,
and I need decent playback on solo in front.
For score-print I just need a decent tool.
For audio-cue-files DAW is prefered, but most tools will do the job.

So, Musescore seems rather good at score print. Midi export is not the best.
I'll check Notion more, but I'm not sure it's up to the task.
Considering Sibelius First.
Reaper: Has some annoying bugs, yet many nice features for composing and playback. Lacks MusicXML, but anyway, that format seems less fit for DAW.

Anyway, I feel composing and score-printing has different needs, as for composing I like to flesh everything out fully. But for score print I like to condense everything down as much as I can with repeats.

Anyone want to share more about how you deal with these things?


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## ed buller (Oct 15, 2013)

i'm afraid what you want doesn't yet exist in one package. There are great DAW's and great score editors. But not in the same place. I know you can download a trail of Sibelius . Fully working..no saving. So at least you can play with it. That and the wallander plug is really good for writing. But NOT for final mockups. For that you will need a decent midi program , Logic or Cubase and a shitload of expensive sample libraries . I personally find the score editing in Cubase very tedious . There is supposedly something coming out from Steinberg being developed by Daniel Spreadbury of Ex Sibeluis fame. I know nothing about this but have a suspicion it could be the answer to many peoples prayers.

good luck

ed


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## G-Sun (Oct 15, 2013)

ed buller @ Tue Oct 15 said:


> i'm afraid what you want doesn't yet exist in one package. There are great DAW's and great score editors. But not in the same place. I know you can download a trail of Sibelius . Fully working..no saving. So at least you can play with it. That and the wallander plug is really good for writing. But NOT for final mockups. For that you will need a decent midi program , Logic or Cubase and a shitload of expensive sample libraries . I personally find the score editing in Cubase very tedious . There is supposedly something coming out from Steinberg being developed by Daniel Spreadbury of Ex Sibeluis fame. I know nothing about this but have a suspicion it could be the answer to many peoples prayers.
> 
> good luck
> 
> ed


Thanks for your input ED 

BTW: I do have a good enough libraries. So, as long as I can utilize vst I'm fine.


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## Peter Alexander (Oct 15, 2013)

Insights article on Notion 4
http://soniccontrol.tv/2013/08/04/notion-4-in-the-classroom/ (http://soniccontrol.tv/2013/08/04/notio ... classroom/)


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## G-Sun (Oct 15, 2013)

Peter Alexander @ Tue Oct 15 said:


> Insights article on Notion 4
> http://soniccontrol.tv/2013/08/04/notion-4-in-the-classroom/ (http://soniccontrol.tv/2013/08/04/notio ... classroom/)


Great, thanks!
I really missed what I was looking for most.
How it stands up regarding formating and print.
And, does it have a editable piano-roll?


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## Peter Alexander (Oct 15, 2013)

I believe you can download a demo.

The printing looks very good. I haven't tried piano roll edit because that's not how I'm using it.


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## G-Sun (Oct 15, 2013)

Peter Alexander @ Tue Oct 15 said:


> I believe you can download a demo.
> 
> The printing looks very good. I haven't tried piano roll edit because that's not how I'm using it.


Yes, I've been demoing Notion3 and I believe it will fit my bill.
Ok, for composing it will lack midi-clips, 
and I'm not sure how well the the sequencer-overlay will work (Looks like affected playback/midi, but but score. But I might be wrong.)
But for workflow, getting it all into final format from the beginning is a huge plus


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