# Spitfire BBCSO Pro a few questions



## muziksculp (May 14, 2020)

Hi,

I have Spitfire Symphonic Orchestra, The Spitfire Symphonic Strings is made up of : 16 V1, 14 V2, 12 Vla, 10 Cel, 8 DB

I couldn't find this info. for Spitfire's BBCSO , any idea what the number of players for each section is ?

Do you think the BBCSO Pro Strings can sound close to the way Symphonic Strings sound ? maybe with some additional reverb treatment ?

For those who have both Spitfire Symphonic Orchestra, and BBCSO Pro, which one do you prefer, and why ? do you think BBCSO Pro can deliver, or get close to the sound of Spitfire Symphonic Orchestra ?

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## jaketanner (May 24, 2020)

curious about this as well...BTW, with SSS is there not an outrigger mic position? I saw in one of Paul's walkthroughs that there are 4 mics...


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## holywilly (May 24, 2020)

BBCSO strings ensemble consist of 16 Violins 1, 14 Violins 2, 12 Violas, 10 Celli, and 8 Contrabasses. You can find the info here: https://www.spitfireaudio.com/shop/a-z/bbc-symphony-orchestra-professional/
under "included instruments".

I have both Symphonic Strings and BBCSO Pro, sonic-wise I'm in favor of BBCSO, it's more crisp and well defined than SSS, it's just my personal preference.

Surprisedly BBCSO strings work quite well with VSL's Synchron Strings I, these are the 2 workhorse in my template.


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## jbuhler (May 24, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> curious about this as well...BTW, with SSS is there not an outrigger mic position? I saw in one of Paul's walkthroughs that there are 4 mics...


The extended mics (pro version) of SSS, which used to be available as an add on, include the outrigger as did the old Mural. Those mics will be available when they port SSS to the SF player.


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## José Herring (May 24, 2020)

holywilly said:


> BBCSO strings ensemble consist of 16 Violins 1, 14 Violins 2, 12 Violas, 10 Celli, and 8 Contrabasses. You can find the info here: https://www.spitfireaudio.com/shop/a-z/bbc-symphony-orchestra-professional/
> under "included instruments".
> 
> I have both Symphonic Strings and BBCSO Pro, sonic-wise I'm in favor of BBCSO, it's more crisp and well defined than SSS, it's just my personal preference.
> ...


Curious to know if you had to buy one or the other which do you feel you could get better results from?


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## holywilly (May 24, 2020)

josejherring said:


> Curious to know if you had to buy one or the other which do you feel you could get better results from?


That's a tough question, both SSS and BBCSO could yield convincing result. 

I'll recommend BBCSO if people want the full orchestra as one package.

However, you might need some help from other libraries for extra bite. That actually apply to all Orchestral VI's. 

Having BBCSO as the fundamental library could yield a very good result, no matter what genres of music you're writing.


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## jaketanner (May 24, 2020)

holywilly said:


> BBCSO strings ensemble consist of 16 Violins 1, 14 Violins 2, 12 Violas, 10 Celli, and 8 Contrabasses. You can find the info here: https://www.spitfireaudio.com/shop/a-z/bbc-symphony-orchestra-professional/
> under "included instruments".
> 
> I have both Symphonic Strings and BBCSO Pro, sonic-wise I'm in favor of BBCSO, it's more crisp and well defined than SSS, it's just my personal preference.
> ...


Damn. Just when I had my eye set on sss. I have Synchron Strings. But why layer two Symphonic libraries? And I would get the bbc core not pro, would that present a problem layering?


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## muziksculp (May 24, 2020)

@holywilly ,

Thanks for the info. regarding the size of the BBCSO String Sections. Which is the same as the Symphonic Strings 16-14-12-10-8

One more questions.

Does the BBCSO Pro version library make it possible to access the BBCSO Core version Player (the gray color) player ? i.e. let's say you want to begin a project using the Core content, then switch to the Pro version, when you want to add additional mics, and/or instruments, is this possible if I had the Pro version ?


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## jaketanner (May 24, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> The extended mics (pro version) of SSS, which used to be available as an add on, include the outrigger as did the old Mural. Those mics will be available when they port SSS to the SF player.


Free upgrade? Hope. I’m undecided which way to go. BBC core or sss and harp.


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## Jacob Fanto (May 24, 2020)

Also just want to continue OP’s train of thought - is there anything SSO has over BBCSO other than the AIR sound? Like how do the strings, winds, and brass compare in each other?


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## Rory (May 24, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> Does the BBCSO Pro version library make it possible to access the BBCSO Core version Player (the gray color) player ? i.e. let's say you want to begin a project using the Core content, then switch to the Pro version, when you want to add additional mics, and/or instruments, is this possible if I had the Pro version ?


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## jbuhler (May 24, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> Free upgrade? Hope. I’m undecided which way to go. BBC core or sss and harp.


No. Not free. The port to the player will almost certainly be free but it won’t come with the addition mics. I expect it will have approximately the same price differential as between SCS and SCS Pro. At least that’s what I recall when it was on limited offer a couple of years ago. I got it for $99 when they offered it on special before pulling it until the port to the new player. (I understand it had something to do with NI changing the terms by which extensions to libraries could be offered.)


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## holywilly (May 24, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> @holywilly ,
> 
> Thanks for the info. regarding the size of the BBCSO String Sections. Which is the same as the Symphonic Strings 16-14-12-10-8
> 
> ...


Yes, once you get the Pro, you'll have access to Core and Adventure for free.


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## muziksculp (May 24, 2020)

@Rory,

Thanks for the info. , this makes my decision to go for the BBCSO Pro version easier.


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## muziksculp (May 24, 2020)

holywilly said:


> Yes, once you get the Pro, you'll have access to Core and Adventure for free.



Thanks. Does the Spitfire Library downloader donwload the BBCSO Pro as one file, or separate files for each section ? or ... ? do the library files have to be on the same SSD ?

I'm going to have to install a new 2 TB SSD to accommodate BBCSO Pro, and future libraries.


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## Rory (May 24, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> @Rory,
> 
> Thanks for the info. , this makes my decision to go for the BBCSO Pro version easier.



I think that Spitfire uploaded that video four days ago, which is pretty late in the game, because they were getting feedback that the relationship between the three products, and how they work with the player, is unclear.


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## muziksculp (May 24, 2020)

Rory said:


> I think that Spitfire uploaded that video four days ago, which is pretty late in the game, because they were getting feedback that the relationship between the three products, and how they work with the player, is unclear.



Yes, that detail was not very clear from the initial info. they had available. 

I was initially thinking of getting the Core version, and then upgrading to the Pro if needed. But, this detail made me think differently, because it will give me the luxury to use both Pro and Core, so I could have a smaller template using Core Instruments, then adding more from the Pro as needed. That made a lot of sense to me.


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## holywilly (May 24, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> Thanks. Does the Spitfire Library downloader donwload the BBCSO Pro as one file, or separate files for each section ? or ... ? do the library files have to be on the same SSD ?
> 
> I'm going to have to install a new 2 TB SSD to accommodate BBCSO Pro, and future libraries.


BBCSO downloads come with sections: Woodwinds, Brass, Percussions, Strings, plus Core and Adventure.

I think you can distribute sections into different SSD location, but for the safety, I have BBCSO on one SSD.


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## jaketanner (May 24, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> No. Not free. The port to the player will almost certainly be free but it won’t come with the addition mics. I expect it will have approximately the same price differential as between SCS and SCS Pro. At least that’s what I recall when it was on limited offer a couple of years ago. I got it for $99 when they offered it on special before pulling it until the port to the new player. (I understand it had something to do with NI changing the terms by which extensions to libraries could be offered.)


So one additional mic is going to cost $300? THat's what the difference between SCS and SCS pro is...It not worth that much for me to upgrade SCS to pro...most likely not going to do it for one mic.


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## José Herring (May 24, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> So one additional mic is going to cost $300? THat's what the difference between SCS and SCS pro is...It not worth that much for me to upgrade SCS to pro...most likely not going to do it for one mic.


But, I'm sure it's a really, really expensive mic.


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## muziksculp (May 24, 2020)

holywilly said:


> BBCSO downloads come with sections: Woodwinds, Brass, Percussions, Strings, plus Core and Adventure.
> 
> I think you can distribute sections into different SSD location, but for the safety, I have BBCSO on one SSD.



Thanks.


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## jbuhler (May 24, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> So one additional mic is going to cost $300? THat's what the difference between SCS and SCS pro is...It not worth that much for me to upgrade SCS to pro...most likely not going to do it for one mic.


No, you get the outrigger, a close ribbon, a stereo pair, a gallery and leader mics. You also get to stereo mixes by Jake Jackson.


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## jaketanner (May 24, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> No, you get the outrigger, a close ribbon, a stereo pair, a gallery and leader mics. You also get to stereo mixes by Jake Jackson.


ah..ok thanks.


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## PaulieDC (May 27, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> Free upgrade? Hope. I’m undecided which way to go. BBC core or sss and harp.


Yes. Wet and dry, you'll be desert-island ready.

Also, I did spring for SCS Pro and the extra mics are worth the price of admission three-fold. And that's coming from someone barely entering the minor leagues on all this.


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## jaketanner (May 27, 2020)

PaulieDC said:


> Also, I did spring for SCS Pro and the extra mics are worth the price of admission three-fold


I wish I could use the library more...I try so hard, and every time I hit an interval that is out of tune, I abandon it quickly...I will experiment more, maybe it's the articulations or what...and even if I get the pro, I would do it on major sale...not worth $300.

How does it add to the library?


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## PaulieDC (May 27, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> I wish I could use the library more...I try so hard, and every time I hit an interval that is out of tune, I abandon it quickly...I will experiment more, maybe it's the articulations or what...and even if I get the pro, I would do it on major sale...not worth $300.
> 
> How does it add to the library?


I'm still trying to compose chord progressions and get a feel for what sounds good so I think I may have misled you with my reply. Reason is, I'm still mostly in the ensemble patches because collectively the rich sound helps me pull out meolodies and other things I may not have come up with otherwise. I could dink all day playing teh ensembles. Sounds like you are trying to assemble a real arrangement by instrument so I think I will heed YOUR advice before I asnwer again!


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## PaulieDC (May 27, 2020)

BTW, I just got totally HOOKED on this sale... I did want SSS eventually because I have mostly chamber-sized or dry string libraries. But 40% off ($479) was not enough to pull thE trigger. Then I discovered the https://www.spitfireaudio.com/shop/a-z/justin-hurwitz-essential-selects/ (Justin Hurwitz Essential) collection is the Spitfire Harp WITH SSS for $379. Wait, what? That's $60 for the harp and $319 for SSS. I could use a good harp, so, BAM. Didn't help that PayPal let me do 6 months no interest. Can't believe I caved in and bought Core and SSS. And this was after I replied above to you about SCS! I need to get to bed before I go broke. Download will take a while anyway.


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## holywilly (May 27, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> I wish I could use the library more...I try so hard, and every time I hit an interval that is out of tune, I abandon it quickly...I will experiment more, maybe it's the articulations or what...and even if I get the pro, I would do it on major sale...not worth $300.
> 
> How does it add to the library?


I second that! I found that the old legato performance patches are better in playability and tuning. The newer performance legato just doesn’t sound right (both SCS and SSS).

However, BBCSO’s string legato sounds much better.


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## jaketanner (May 27, 2020)

PaulieDC said:


> BTW, I just got totally HOOKED on this sale... I did want SSS eventually because I have mostly chamber-sized or dry string libraries. But 40% off ($479) was not enough to pull thE trigger. Then I discovered the https://www.spitfireaudio.com/shop/a-z/justin-hurwitz-essential-selects/ (Justin Hurwitz Essential) collection is the Spitfire Harp WITH SSS for $379. Wait, what? That's $60 for the harp and $319 for SSS. I could use a good harp, so, BAM. Didn't help that PayPal let me do 6 months no interest. Can't believe I caved in and bought Core and SSS. And this was after I replied above to you about SCS! I need to get to bed before I go broke. Download will take a while anyway.


I was all gung ho to get that bundle as well...I've been wanting SSS for the longest. Don't need another harp, but can't hurt I guess. I opted for CSSS instead (loyalty discount), to add to my CSS...not thrilled and should have waited, but at least it satisfied my need for CSSS...LOL It behaves very strange and unless you absolutely use it with CSS, I can't imagine it being useful as a solo or quartet library.

Anyway...congrats on SSS...and I wanted to get BBC Core very much also and all set to get LASS lite if you can believe..but I really do need the different mic options and core nor LASS lite has them.


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## jaketanner (May 27, 2020)

holywilly said:


> I second that! I found that the old legato performance patches are better in playability and tuning. The newer performance legato just doesn’t sound right (both SCS and SSS).


YES!!!! I am glad I'm not alone...it had tuning issues when I got it, but ever since they did an update a few years back, the performances are weird...


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## jbuhler (May 27, 2020)

holywilly said:


> I second that! I found that the old legato performance patches are better in playability and tuning. The newer performance legato just doesn’t sound right (both SCS and SSS).
> 
> However, BBCSO’s string legato sounds much better.


Make sure you have the latest version of the performance legato patch for SCS. I think it was the release before last of the performance legato patch that was badly broken for certain figures, but the issues manifest irregularly. But it's also true that each of the legatos performs differently and it is worth trying different legatos (and the library has lots of legatos) if one isn't working the way that you want. (And yes I have both legato performance and performance legato in my template, along with many of the other legatos available through the individual articulations.) It is also always worth holding off on making the final judgment until you have the full context, because I find that often what seems not to work in isolation works really well in context.


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## jaketanner (May 27, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> Make sure you have the latest version of the performance legato patch for SCS


So if I load up the SF installer app, if I don't see anything under latest updates than I have the latest? Because I have issues with SCS and would love to see if I actually need an update. Was considering to just reinstall the entire thing.


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## Akarin (May 27, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> I wish I could use the library more...I try so hard, and every time I hit an interval that is out of tune, I abandon it quickly...I will experiment more, maybe it's the articulations or what...and even if I get the pro, I would do it on major sale...not worth $300.
> 
> How does it add to the library?



I keep reading you saying that SCS is out of tune. I use it a lot and never noticed that. Are my ears shot? Do anybody confirm?


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## jaketanner (May 27, 2020)

Akarin said:


> I keep reading you saying that SCS is out of tune. I use it a lot and never noticed that. Are my ears shot? Do anybody confirm?


what version are you using, and where are you checking for that? I am in the middle of making sure I have the latest version myself, but can't seem to find the proper location to see what's actually installed.


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## jaketanner (May 27, 2020)

Akarin said:


> I keep reading you saying that SCS is out of tune. I use it a lot and never noticed that. Are my ears shot? Do anybody confirm?


ok..so here is one quick interval...there are more, but can't remember them at the moment...just came across this one a few days ago. The D of the lowest octave is out of tune when transitioning...you notice that when I play it repeated it's fine, but then when in legato it's off...and if this is repeated several times in a row, it sticks out really bad.


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## jbuhler (May 27, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> So if I load up the SF installer app, if I don't see anything under latest updates than I have the latest? Because I have issues with SCS and would love to see if I actually need an update. Was considering to just reinstall the entire thing.


I think so. The most recent update was in December. It might be worth reinstalling. Because your version seems to work differently than mine. (I'm thinking especially of your comment about the library not sounding like Christian's.)


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## Akarin (May 27, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> ok..so here is one quick interval...there are more, but can't remember them at the moment...just came across this one a few days ago. The D of the lowest octave is out of tune when transitioning...you notice that when I play it repeated it's fine, but then when in legato it's off...and if this is repeated several times in a row, it sticks out really bad.



If I am not mistaken, it's an open string. How do you legato into it?


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## jaketanner (May 27, 2020)

Akarin said:


> If I am not mistaken, it's an open string. How do you legato into it?


no idea...but violins 2 doesn't have this issue. But you hear what I mean...does your do that? G-Bb-D, lowest octave.


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## Akarin (May 27, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> no idea...but violins 2 doesn't have this issue. But you hear what I mean...does your do that? G-Bb-D, lowest octave.



Doesn't seem to, no.


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## PaulieDC (May 27, 2020)

holywilly said:


> However, BBCSO’s string legato sounds much better.


Good to know! In the next round I’m sure I’ll upgrade to Pro, there is a _something_ in that BBCSO that love but I’m too new to explain, but I guess it’s the fact that it’s one orchestra. However, you pointing out the issues with OOT notes and legato that isn’t the top tier in SSS and SCS is great, I now know what to start paying attention to, and not just be library-starstruck. So thanks! I’m pretty sure that in a month I’m going to be saying “how did I not hear this before“.


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## jaketanner (May 27, 2020)

Akarin said:


> Doesn't seem to, no.


so then there is definitely something wrong with mine. Violin 1 seems to have that issue.


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## jbuhler (May 27, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> ok..so here is one quick interval...there are more, but can't remember them at the moment...just came across this one a few days ago. The D of the lowest octave is out of tune when transitioning...you notice that when I play it repeated it's fine, but then when in legato it's off...and if this is repeated several times in a row, it sticks out really bad.


Yes, violin 1 has this in mine too. But not in all the legato patches (or to the same degree). It is somewhat less pronounced if you use the bowed legato (triggered with high velocity in performance legato) and especially with the portamento legato (triggered with low velocity (though of course then you get portamento!).

Here is violin 1 with (1) performance legato (all fingered); (2) Performance legato for everything except the second note (Bb), which is bowed legato triggered with a keyswitch in a different patch, and the first D, which is performance legato triggered with a low velocity so it doesn't get an overlay; (3) sul G legato; (4) violin 2 performance legato.


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## muziksculp (May 27, 2020)

Hi,

Anyone else trying to decide if they should buy BBCSO Pro before May 31st ? 

What's holding you back ? is it because of any specific details of the library ? or ... ?


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## Levon (May 27, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> Anyone else trying to decide if they should buy BBCSO Pro before May 31st ?
> 
> What's holding you back ? is it because of any specific details of the library ? or ... ?


My hold up is because I can’t decide between it and SSO


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## jaketanner (May 27, 2020)

Levon said:


> My hold up is because I can’t decide between it and SSO


That’s a good hold up to have. Lol.


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## Levon (May 28, 2020)

If you have BBC SO Pro then are you making much use of the various mic positions? Or would the default mix 1 have been sufficient for you in most instances? Trying to decide between whether or not I really need the extra mics in Pro.


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## CT (May 28, 2020)

Mix 1 is really versatile. If it were only a matter of additional mics between Core and Pro instead of instruments as well, I'd probably just buy Core. But there's a little too much closeness in Mix 1 for my taste, so I'm glad I have the additional options.


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## muk (May 28, 2020)

Levon said:


> If you have BBC SO Pro then are you making much use of the various mic positions?



More than I would have thought. Mix 1 is a good basic starting point. I use it to create the mockups (saves pc resources that way). To render to audio, I switch to a custom mix though. For my taste, Mix 1 is slightly too wet. Very easy to adjust with all the mic options that you have in Pro. I never use the individual spill mics. Just the spill mic mix (all spill mics together) is enough for me. The other mic options I use quite a bit.


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## muziksculp (May 28, 2020)

muk said:


> More than I would have thought. Mix 1 is a good basic starting point. I use it to create the mockups (saves pc resources that way). To render to audio, I switch to a custom mix though. For my taste, Mix 1 is slightly too wet. Very easy to adjust with all the mic options that you have in Pro. I never use the individual spill mics. Just the spill mic mix (all spill mics together) is enough for me. The other mic options I use quite a bit.



That's Interesting. 

What does the Spill Mic Mix add to the sound in terms of character ? 

How would you rate the Strings in BBCSO Pro ? Excellent, very good, good, decent ? Any thing you would wish was better, or needs to be improved ? 

Do you feel you need to layer some of the BBCSO Pro instruments with other libraries to improve them ? or do they work great by themselves most of the time ? 

Thanks.


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## muk (May 29, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> What does the Spill Mic Mix add to the sound in terms of character ?



It sounds a bit rounder. The instruments are less separated and blend a bit more. Luke posted a direct comparison with and without spills here:






Spitfire Audio “This is London Calling” - BBC Symphony Orchestra


The Spitfire app that does the downloads I think? Oh yeah, you're right!




vi-control.net







muziksculp said:


> How would you rate the Strings in BBCSO Pro ? Excellent, very good, good, decent?



It's too soon for me to be conclusive. I dig the tone of these strings. They sound like large symphonic concert hall strings. It's a gorgeous sound. I'm not so sure about the legato yet. The transitions sound a bit disconnected and uniform to me. Will have to test more. I haven't worked with the short articulations much yet, so I can't comment about those either. 



muziksculp said:


> Any thing you would wish was better, or needs to be improved ?



Loads. Some that could happen, some that can't. The elephant in the room is that this library would have needed more dynamic layers. Two, or three at max, are not enough. For the woodwinds it is less of a problem, and for the strings you can get by by using the flautandos as your pianissimo layer. That works quite well actually. But the brass really suffers. You have a mp dynamic layer from cc1 values of 0-65 or so, and then a brassy sounding forte for the rest. Nothing else. Using the separate cuivré patches doesn't help either, as they do the same brassy sound as the normal patches above 65. The brass doesn't sound bad mostly, it's just severely limited by not having more dynamic layers.

Then I would wish for better legato programming. Overall it sounds too disconected for my taste. Some instruments/intervals are not programmed properly. The bassoon comes to mind. Listen to this example:









BBCSO Bassoon phasing.mp3 | Powered by Box







app.box.com





Whenever a legato transition from d to e is triggered, there is a severe doubling effect. For a second or so, it sounds like two bassoons playing. Just the e on its own sounds fine. Sounds like sloppy programming on the legato transition to me. And the bassoon has this issue on many transitions.
Then some of the instruments have an 'extended legato' patch, but most don't. The flute does, the clarinet doesn't. Makes no sense to me and looks like an unfinished product. Looking at the Symphony Series libraries, I don't expect the extended legato patches for the other instruments any time soon. Will probably years, if they come at all.



muziksculp said:


> Do you feel you need to layer some of the BBCSO Pro instruments with other libraries to improve them ? or do they work great by themselves most of the time ?



Layering is something I rarely do. Very rarely. What I do all the time is mix and match libraries. For example, for a horn part, I might reach for BBCSO when the horn plays a background part, blending with the rest of the orchestra. For the exposed solo later on in the piece I will then switch to Cinematic Studio Brass for example.
I'd say that BBCSO works very well for these non-exposed orchestral parts. For solos I would probably want to switch to other libraries, especially for the brass.
What I still have to try is using the BBCSO woodwinds and brass as first (or second) players, and using VSL Woodwinds and Cinematic Studio Brass as second players. I haven't started working on that template, so I can't say how well that'll work.

Personally I think I will be using BBCSO as my orchestral backbone, and supplement it with other libraries where I see fit. I definitely see me using it a lot, because the sound is gorgeous, and because it fits my taste (which is more concert hall than film/epic/trailer). Really love that. To be using it exclusively, I don't feel that it is comprehensive and consistent enough. It will certainly work for orchestral pieces without too many exposed and or complicated parts. For these I will still be using my VSL Woodwinds, Cinematic Studio Strings and Brass etc.


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## muziksculp (May 29, 2020)

@muk ,

Thank You very much for answering my questions. This is very helpful info.

Hopefully I will be able to decide weather to buy the BBCSO Pro , or the Core version, or to totally pass on it, by May 31st.


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## muk (May 29, 2020)

Good luck with your decision. I would say that the sound is fantastic. The recordings are top notch, and the sound of the orchestra and the hall are gorgeous. There are very few libraries I can think of - if any at all - that sound so good. And that's the main reason why I bought and why I think I will be using it quite a bit. But there are not enough dynamic layers, and the programming could be better.


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## muziksculp (May 29, 2020)

muk said:


> Good luck with your decision. I would say that the sound is fantastic. The recordings are top notch, and the sound of the orchestra and the hall are gorgeous. There are very few libraries I can think of - if any at all - that sound so good. And that's the main reason why I bought and why I think I will be using it quite a bit. But there are not enough dynamic layers, and the programming could be better.



Hi muk,

Thanks. 

It won't be easy to decide, I listened to as many demos made with BBCSO Pro and Core as I can find on Youtube, and the official demos SA posted on the product webpage. I wasn't very impressed with the SA demos posted, not sure what's not clicking with me when listening to these demos. 

Some of the ones on Youtube are pretty good, but have too much brass in the music, to be able to evaluate the strings, and woodwinds more accurately.


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## muk (May 29, 2020)

Well, I posted a snippet with strings and woodwinds only here: 






Comparison between a few strings libraries - including BBC SO


Hi everyone, Having bought BBC SO I wanted to compare it with some other libraries I have. This the first few bars of Schubert's song 'Du bist die Ruh' that I orchestrated. It's the very first short mockup I made with BBC SO. I'm still making myself familiar with the library and setting up a...




vi-control.net





One with Jake Jacksons Mix 1 (the one that is included in Core), one with a mix I did myself with the mics in Pro. 

I fear it's not the best representation of the library though, as it was the very first mockup I did with BBCSO. Will have to learn the library more to see what it is really capable of.


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## muziksculp (May 29, 2020)

Here are some demos made with the BBCSO Pro I liked :


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## muziksculp (May 29, 2020)

If there are any BBCSO Pro demos that have impressed you, or made you buy this library, or are tempting you to buy it, please feel free to post them on this thread.


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## Jett Hitt (May 29, 2020)

muk said:


> It sounds a bit rounder. The instruments are less separated and blend a bit more. Luke posted a direct comparison with and without spills here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What @muk said here is spot on. The sound is gorgeous as a whole, but when you get down to the detail in some of the instruments, it can get really ugly. In fact it is unforgivable. I have completely given up on the horn. It is obnoxious. 

Somewhere deep down inside, I really hope that Spitfire recognizes the incredible potential of this library and fixes it. It desperately needs more dynamic layers. I seriously doubt it will happen, but one can hope. It is kind of amazing to think that they had a truly unique opportunity to record one of the world’s greatest orchestras in such an iconic place, and they took a shortcut, a crippling shortcut. I really think that they could have been the only game in town if they hadn’t done this. It’s kind of heartbreaking


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## CT (May 29, 2020)

What exactly is the complaint people have about the horn, just the dynamic crossfade point? I really think the horn is pretty beautiful....


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## jbuhler (May 29, 2020)

miket said:


> What exactly is the complaint people have about the horn, just the dynamic crossfade point? I really think the horn is pretty beautiful....


The criticisms I hear most often is that it lacks oomph.


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## muziksculp (May 29, 2020)

I listened to a few demos done using BBCSO Pro, CineBrass Core/Pro was added to complement the brass. I'm guessing BBCSO Pro alone was not up to the task for the more brassy over the top sounding tracks.


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## CT (May 29, 2020)

Man, people keep saying the brass is weak... I must be outta my mind.


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## John R Wilson (May 29, 2020)

miket said:


> What exactly is the complaint people have about the horn, just the dynamic crossfade point? I really think the horn is pretty beautiful....



I find it has a nice sound at the lower dynamic but you can really hear the cross-fade between the 2 dynamic layers on the horns legato, it's not a smooth transition between dynamic layers. It also doesn't go that loud, missing the higher dynamic completely.


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## CT (May 29, 2020)

The solo horn has three layers, plus the separate cuivre... I don't know, it seems about as powerful as I'd expect a single horn to be, but that's just me.


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## John R Wilson (May 29, 2020)

miket said:


> The solo horn has three layers, plus the separate cuivre... I don't know, it seems about as powerful as I'd expect a single horn to be, but that's just me.



Sounds like it has only 2 layers to me. I might be wrong on that though. I just find the crossfade is not great and rather audible on the horn.


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## Fleer (May 29, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> @Rory,
> 
> Thanks for the info. , this makes my decision to go for the BBCSO Pro version easier.


Thanks indeed. Wanted to check for myself (and muziksculp) but didn’t get to it yet.


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## holywilly (May 29, 2020)

miket said:


> Man, people keep saying the brass is weak... I must be outta my mind.


I think the brass from BBCSO are beautiful and realistic, I’m digging it!


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## muziksculp (May 30, 2020)

holywilly said:


> I think the brass from BBCSO are beautiful and realistic, I’m digging it!



Thanks for the feedback. 

Some have commented that the Solo Horn is not usable, I don't know what the issue is, but, what are your thoughts regarding the Solo Horn, and the Horn section in general ? 

Tic-Toc-Tic-Toc- ....The Clock is ticking, I have another day to finally decide if I will be purchasing the BBCSO Pro, or Core version, or None.


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## Fleer (May 30, 2020)

Go for it, Muziksculp, it’s the most wholesome (i.e. integral sounding) orchestra I know.


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## muziksculp (May 30, 2020)

Fleer said:


> Go for it, Muziksculp, it’s the most wholesome (i.e. integral sounding) orchestra I know.



@Fleer ,

Haha.. Thanks for pumping my GAS  Are you trying to decide if you will be getting this library ? or you already have it ? 

Yes, I'm very tempted to go for it, but I'm being a bit extra cautious.


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## Fleer (May 30, 2020)

No more gas for me, muziksculp, they got me at BBC One  Already tested Discover (on a MacBook) and Core (on a MacBook Pro) but still have to “discover” Pro.


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## muziksculp (May 30, 2020)

Fleer said:


> No more gas for me, ms, they got me at BBC One. Already tested Discover and Core but still have to play with Pro.



I see. So you have Pro. , no wonder you are low on GAS.


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## OleJoergensen (May 30, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> If there are any BBCSO Pro demos that have impressed you, or made you buy this library, or are tempting you to buy it, please feel free to post them on this thread.


I think this short demoes, made with the pro version, sounds wonderful.

Edit: I think it is BBC brass layered with Sample Modeling Brass....


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## DovesGoWest (May 30, 2020)

I just bought core and loving it although there is definitely something wrong with the solo horn. The dynamic layers do not cross fade properly at all


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## muziksculp (May 30, 2020)

DovesGoWest said:


> I just bought core and loving it although there is definitely something wrong with the solo horn. The dynamic layers do not cross fade properly at all



Have you reported this issue to Spitfire Audio ?


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## DovesGoWest (May 30, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> Have you reported this issue to Spitfire Audio ?


Not yet only had the library for a few hours so still going through it.

another thing I noticed is if you switch a track using discover into core then you have to reload the instrument as well

also I was playing with the Cubase templates and noticed that for instance a longs track only shows the long articulations and a shorts track only shows the short ones, however I found no docs telling you how to replicate this


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## muziksculp (May 30, 2020)

DovesGoWest said:


> Not yet only had the library for a few hours so still going through it.
> 
> another thing I noticed is if you switch a track using discover into core then you have to reload the instrument as well
> 
> also I was playing with the Cubase templates and noticed that for instance a longs track only shows the long articulations and a shorts track only shows the short ones, however I found no docs telling you how to replicate this




My understanding is discover uses a different sample pool than Core, so when you switch to Core from Discover it will have to Reload the additional needed samples. 

Interesting point regarding the shorts and longs articulations in the template. Sorry, I can't provide any feedback on that. maybe someone else who is using the Cubase template can comment on how that was accomplished.


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## Rory (May 30, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> My understanding is discover uses a different sample pool than Core, so when you switch to Core from Discover it will have to Reload the additional needed samples.



Yes, if you have Core you can apparently delete Discover if you want. At least one forum participant has done so with no ill effects.


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## DovesGoWest (May 30, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> My understanding is discover uses a different sample pool than Core, so when you switch to Core from Discover it will have to Reload the additional needed samples.



yeah I understand that but why the hell doesn’t it switch/reload automatically. They made a big thing about mode switching but in reality is it doesn’t really work with a single click

regarding the template what’s really interesting is that say the longs track only has the legato and long articulation so that’s all it has to load. Which means faster load and less memory usage, unlike when I just add the instrument it loads every articulation


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## DovesGoWest (May 30, 2020)

Rory said:


> Yes, if you have Core you can apparently delete Discover if you want. At least one forum participant has done so with no ill effects.


Yeah the discover samples are in a different folder and named differently, also they only have 1 dynamic layer in them


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## muziksculp (May 30, 2020)

I was listening to the solo horn in this video, which uses BBCSO Pro, and don't hear any major issue with it. 

I have the video start right before the solo horn comes in :


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## Rory (May 30, 2020)

DovesGoWest said:


> Yeah the discover samples are in a different folder and named differently, also they only have 1 dynamic layer in them



Yes, when I upgraded from Discover to Core on Thursday, the installer organised both the Core and Discover folders. For the moment, I'm leaving Discover on my drive in case I develop a use for it. It's only about 200MB anyway.


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## DovesGoWest (May 30, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> I was listening to the solo horn in this video, which uses BBCSO Pro, and don't hear any major issue with it.
> 
> I have the video start right before the solo horn comes in :




that sounds like it’s not going to the top dynamic layer


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## DovesGoWest (May 30, 2020)

Rory said:


> Yes, when I upgraded from Discover to Core on Thursday, the installer organised both the Core and Discover folders. For the moment, I'm leaving Discover on my drive in case I develop a use for it. It's only about 200MB anyway.


Same here I just though when I mode switched to core it would load the core samples, however all it seems to do is switch the interface to cover and use the discover samples until you force a reload


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## muziksculp (May 30, 2020)

DovesGoWest said:


> that sounds like it’s not going to the top dynamic layer



Maybe that was his intention. Not to go to the top dynamic, anyways.. I don't have the library, and can't really comment on this detail. I just think the solo horn sounds fine in this musical phrase, without the need to go further up in dynamics. If that dynamic layer doesn't exist, then that could be an issue if that was needed in the phrase.


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## John R Wilson (May 30, 2020)

DovesGoWest said:


> I just bought core and loving it although there is definitely something wrong with the solo horn. The dynamic layers do not cross fade properly at all



The solo horn is probably the weakest instrument of the BBCSO. Not a nice cross fade on it.


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## DovesGoWest (May 30, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> Maybe that was his intention. Not to go to the top dynamic, anyways.. I don't have the library, and can't really comment on this detail. I just think the solo horn sounds fine in this musical phrase, without the need to go further up in dynamics. If that dynamic layer doesn't exist, then that could be an issue if that was needed in the phrase.


I record a sample and upload it tomorrow, maybe it’s an issue in core not pro


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## John R Wilson (May 30, 2020)

DovesGoWest said:


> I record a sample and upload it tomorrow, maybe it’s an issue in core not pro



I've got pro, the solo horn isn't great. Its the same in both core and pro versions.


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## muziksculp (May 30, 2020)

John R Wilson said:


> I've got pro, the solo horn isn't great. Its the same in both core and pro versions.



Is it the issue of being sampled with few dynamics, or something else that Spitfire Audio can fix ? I would bring this to SA's attention, if they can improve/fix it they will usually do so via an update.


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## John R Wilson (May 30, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> Is it the issue of being sampled with few dynamics, or something else that Spitfire Audio can fix ? I would bring this to SA's attention, if they can improve/fix it they will usually do so via an update.



It does seem like it could be due to the amount of dynamic layers they recorded for the solo horn, but it is something I'm hoping that they may improve or fix with an update.


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## CT (May 30, 2020)

I love the horn. Especially the pure legato patch without the short overlays.


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## DovesGoWest (May 30, 2020)

miket said:


> I love the horn. Especially the pure legato patch without the short overlays.


What settings are using on it for dynamics and expression and anything else you changed

what’s the pure legato patch as I only see one legato


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## CT (May 30, 2020)

Not sure what you mean by settings. I just play it as I do anything else. You need to look in the articulation manager for the "other" legato. It's not loaded by default.


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## DovesGoWest (May 30, 2020)

miket said:


> Not sure what you mean by settings. I just play it as I do anything else. You need to look in the articulation manager for the "other" legato. It's not loaded by default.


That must mean you have the pro version, as for solo horn and horn a4 all I have is legato(extended)


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## paulmatthew (May 30, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> Some have commented that the Solo Horn is not usable, I don't know what the issue is, but, what are your thoughts regarding the Solo Horn, and the Horn section in general ?
> 
> Tic-Toc-Tic-Toc- ....The Clock is ticking, I have another day to finally decide if I will be purchasing the BBCSO Pro, or Core version, or None.


Why not do the sensible thing and just get core first if you know you're getting one version or the other? Then you can decide whether or not it will be worth it to upgrade in the future, also saving $400 in the process. Once you have a good go at it , then you can get a sense of if the extra mics and instruments will benefit the full package sound down the line. If you get Core now , you can always upgrade it later tonight or tomorrow for difference or wait for the next sale if that's your plan. Most of what I've heard of BBCSO leans me to the thought that the instruments might not play so well by themselves but become much more cohesive when put together as a whole orchestra in the way it was recorded. I think this was the intention of the BBCSO Orchestra library. Don't let GAS get the best of you here. Do what you feel is right for you and don't forget that the new hard drive for the Pro version will cost you extra Who knows , maybe spitfire will set things up in the future like OT where you can download only what you need , including mic positions in the future.


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## CT (May 30, 2020)

DovesGoWest said:


> That must mean you have the pro version, as for solo horn and horn a4 all I have is legato(extended)



Yes, I bought it when it was originally released. Too bad that these patches are not in the Core version, as they allow a much easier path to smooth legato if you don't need the agility of the performance functionality at the same time. I wish every legato instrument in the library had this variant available.


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## Jett Hitt (May 30, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> Some have commented that the Solo Horn is not usable, I don't know what the issue is, but, what are your thoughts regarding the Solo Horn, and the Horn section in general ?


I was one of the ones that said that about the horn. I find it completely unacceptable. However, you will note that I also said the library was gorgeous as a whole. The horn would not keep me from buying the library. BBCSO is the backbone of my orchestra. I just use a different horn. Even using the legato horn that miket mentions is less than exciting to me.


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## John R Wilson (May 30, 2020)

Jett Hitt said:


> I was one of the ones that said that about the horn. I find it completely unacceptable. However, you will note that I also said the library was gorgeous as a whole. The horn would not keep me from buying the library. BBCSO is the backbone of my orchestra. I just use a different horn. Even using the legato horn that miket mentions is less than exciting to me.



I feel similar regarding the solo horn.


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## CT (May 30, 2020)

All right, I hope this is useful for anyone on the fence and daunted by horn horror stories. Nonsense done in a half hour but maybe enough to determine if you'll consider it usable or not.


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## muziksculp (May 30, 2020)

I was checking out this video of CH adding the BBCSO Pro Horn to this orchestration, I have inserted the Youtube video from the point he does this. So it's ready for you to play, I find his comment interesting, I don't have any issues with the sound of the Horn in this piece.


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## Jett Hitt (May 30, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> I was checking out this video of CH adding the BBCSO Pro Horn to this orchestration, I have inserted the Youtube video from the point he does this. So it's ready for you to play, I find his comment interesting, I don't have any issues with the sound of the Horn in this piece.



Yes this sounds nice, but he isn't showing you the horn here. He says horn, but the patch is horn a4. This is the section.


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## Rory (May 30, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> I was checking out this video of CH adding the BBCSO Pro Horn to this orchestration, I have inserted the Youtube video from the point he does this. So it's ready for you to play, I find his comment interesting, I don't have any issues with the sound of the Horn in this piece.




Thanks for that link. I just watched the first few minutes of Henson's video and I'm enjoying it. Also downloaded his Logic file, apparently also available for Cubase.


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## muziksculp (May 30, 2020)

Jett Hitt said:


> Yes this sounds nice, but he isn't showing you the horn here. He says horn, but the patch is horn a4. This is the section.



Yes, you are correct, he is using the Horns a4 patch, not solo horn. Anyways.. the four horns sound good. 

The solo horn demo posted by @miket , sounds very decent to my ears. I understand you have issues with the solo horn, be it the dynamics, or legato transitions, or ... , I think reporting this to SA Support would be worth it, since they might be able to improve it, or fix the issues via an update.


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## Jett Hitt (May 30, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> Yes, you are correct, he is using the Horns a4 patch, not solo horn. Anyways.. the four horns sound good.
> 
> The solo horn demo posted by @miket , sounds very decent to my ears. I understand you have issues with the solo horn, be it the dynamics, or legato transitions, or ... , I think reporting this to SA Support would be worth it, since they might be able to improve it, or fix the issues via an update.


Yes, I love the section patch, and make no mistake about it, I love this library. Miket is showing you the "extra" legato patch there, which you won't get with Core (or so I understand). As for reporting to SA Support, yeah hey good luck with that. They've been pretty thin-skinned about their brass from day 1. It was the thing that everyone screamed first and loudest about. Mostly I don't mind the brass. It is underpowered, but it works.


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## CT (May 30, 2020)

The only real difference in the "extra" patch is that the shorts are not built in. There's nothing I did there that you couldn't do with the standard one, being careful to play or program velocities low enough not to trigger the short overlays.


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## Jett Hitt (May 30, 2020)

miket said:


> The only real difference in the "extra" patch is that the shorts are not built in. There's nothing I did there that you couldn't do with the standard one, being careful to play or program velocities low enough not to trigger the short overlays.


Perhaps Miket should give us a masterclass on how to use this thing--and I am not at all being facetious. He can clearly use the thing. Here is a quick and dirty example of the problem with the BBCSO horn. This is a recording of three horns playing the exact same note. Two of these horns are clearly better than the other. I'll let you guess which one is BBCSO. Nothing fancy, just a crescendoing note:


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## CT (May 30, 2020)

It's not immediately obvious to me what's what there... they all have blemishes as I'd expect any virtual instrument to, especially soloists, but they all come across as usable sounds. 

Honestly, the only thing I think I could give a useful masterclass in is getting on with some music instead of focusing in on differences like this. I think the amount of releases, at least from major developers, that are truly in some way crippled or unusable, even individual parts of them, is near zero. We're just a bit too spoiled for choice. That's all I can really say about it.


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## Rory (May 30, 2020)

I think that my decision whether to upgrade from Core to Pro has more to do with the US$400 upgrade cost, plus $200 for a 1TB Samsung T7 SSD to house the damn thing, than with a debate over a French horn 

I have a few hours before the sale is over, but I suspect that I'll be struggling to get by on $300 Core for the foreseeable future.


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## DovesGoWest (May 30, 2020)

Rory said:


> I think that my decision whether to upgrade from Core to Pro has more to do with the US$400 upgrade cost, plus $200 for a 1TB Samsung T7 SSD to house the damn thing, than with a debate over a French horn
> 
> I have a few hours before the sale is over, but I suspect that I'll be struggling to get by on $300 Core for the foreseeable future.


having played with core for several hours now I would say do you need the solo strings and extra instruments that pro has and also do you need/want all the extra mic positions. That’s what your paying $600 for, I wanted the solo strings but I am getting the tableau ones as the sound great to me and a lot cheaper. Through a combination of delays and reverbs I can create my own signature sound/room so don’t really need all the mics


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## Jett Hitt (May 30, 2020)

miket said:


> It's not immediately obvious to me what's what there... they all have blemishes as I'd expect any virtual instrument to, especially soloists, but they all come across as usable sounds.
> 
> Honestly, the only thing I think I could give a useful masterclass in is getting on with some music instead of focusing in on differences like this. I think the amount of releases, at least from major developers, that are truly in some way crippled or unusable, even individual parts of them, is near zero. We're just a bit too spoiled for choice. That's all I can really say about it.


Sounds like somebody heard exactly what I was talking about and got their feathers ruffled. Nobody is forcing you to surf VI miket. Go write some music if you want to. Those three examples are SSB, BBCSO, CSB, respectively. The BBCSO clearly turns very brassy right in the middle, which a horn doesn't do, unless you write cuivré. In the Christian Henson video above, he indicates that a horn has two "stages," the chocolatey stage and the brassy stage. Based on the way they programmed this horn, you would think he thought it should get brassy as it gets louder. Apparently, he didn't think this when they programmed SSB, however. Interestingly enough, the BBCSO a4 horn patch doesn't do this either, which is why he chose to use the a4 patch in that example and not the solo horn. 

So miket, I am not sure whether you're just a Spitfire fanboy or an actual Spitfire plant. But something tells me that you know a horn isn't supposed to behave this way unless it is asked to.


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## CT (May 31, 2020)

That took a surprising and disappointing turn. I don't know what to tell you. Everything I said was earnest, and while I regret it if you took anything I said as some kind of negative comment on your concerns, that's not how I meant it. I'm not a fanboy nor a "plant." I just don't share your complaint about this particular issue. But I suppose that warrants this kind of escalation, sure. There's absolutely nothing else on anyone's mind right now, so let's turn THIS into a goddamn conspiracy.

Unbelievable....


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## OleJoergensen (May 31, 2020)

I just bought the pro version. After spending a couple of days lurking here, youtube videos, advices from a friend I came to the conclusion that I wouldn’t be satisfied with the core version. So using 350 Euro on something I wouldn’t be satisfied with, is like waisting 350 Euro. 
It was mostly the wonderful sound of Mattia’s youtube videos, that made me make up my mind.
But 400 Euro more is some money, which means some other stuff most wait.

Thank you everyone for sharing your knowledge!


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## gussunkri (May 31, 2020)

Jett Hitt said:


> Sounds like somebody heard exactly what I was talking about and got their feathers ruffled. Nobody is forcing you to surf VI miket. Go write some music if you want to. Those three examples are SSB, BBCSO, CSB, respectively. The BBCSO clearly turns very brassy right in the middle, which a horn doesn't do, unless you write cuivré. In the Christian Henson video above, he indicates that a horn has two "stages," the chocolatey stage and the brassy stage. Based on the way they programmed this horn, you would think he thought it should get brassy as it gets louder. Apparently, he didn't think this when they programmed SSB, however. Interestingly enough, the BBCSO a4 horn patch doesn't do this either, which is why he chose to use the a4 patch in that example and not the solo horn.
> 
> So miket, I am not sure whether you're just a Spitfire fanboy or an actual Spitfire plant. But something tells me that you know a horn isn't supposed to behave this way unless it is asked to.


Wow, the CSB sounds great! Though for the record I generally love my BBCSO professional. I bought Organic samples Majestic horn and I figured that it, along with Adventure brass, will be nice companions to the BBCSO.


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## RogiervG (May 31, 2020)

OleJoergensen said:


> I think this short demoes, made with the pro version, sounds wonderful.



quick note: the brass you hear in the examples are Sample Modelling Brass, not BBCSO brass.




muziksculp said:


> I was listening to the solo horn in this video, which uses BBCSO Pro, and don't hear any major issue with it.



That's SM Brass horn1 you hear here.


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## OleJoergensen (May 31, 2020)

RogiervG said:


> quick note: the brass you hear in the examples are Sample Modelling Brass, not BBCSO brass.


Thank you Rogier.
I remember Mattie told that in the youtube movie.
I think it is BBC brass layered with Sample Modeling Brass....I will add it in my post, thank you.


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## easyrider (May 31, 2020)

How does the percussion compare to the JB percussion ? Could it be used with SSS etc...?

Thanks


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## Jett Hitt (May 31, 2020)

miket said:


> That took a surprising and disappointing turn. I don't know what to tell you. Everything I said was earnest, and while I regret it if you took anything I said as some kind of negative comment on your concerns, that's not how I meant it. I'm not a fanboy nor a "plant." I just don't share your complaint about this particular issue. But I suppose that warrants this kind of escalation, sure. There's absolutely nothing else on anyone's mind right now, so let's turn THIS into a goddamn conspiracy.
> 
> Unbelievable....


You're right, it did take a surprising and disappointing turn. To me, that turn came when you dismissed my example out of hand. I was genuinely curious to know how you were using the horn. I just don't understand why everyone is trying to make excuses for that horn. Even Mattia Chiappa isn't using the BBCSO horn in the example posted above. He is clearly using the BBCSO template. The impression I had when I first watched that video was, "Wow, that's all done with BBCSO." And then I figured out that it wasn't. Mattia doesn't advertise that he is substituting, but he is. I am clearly not the only one the horn doesn't work for.


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## zadillo (May 31, 2020)

Jett Hitt said:


> You're right, it did take a surprising and disappointing turn. To me, that turn came when you dismissed my example out of hand. I was genuinely curious to know how you were using the horn. I just don't understand why everyone is trying to make excuses for that horn. Even Mattia Chiappa isn't using the BBCSO horn in the example posted above. He is clearly using the BBCSO template. The impression I had when I first watched that video was, "Wow, that's all done with BBCSO." And then I figured out that it wasn't. Mattia doesn't advertise that he is substituting, but he is. I am clearly not the only one the horn doesn't work for.



I’m not really sure any of that justifies calling someone a Spitfire plant or fanboy


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## Jett Hitt (May 31, 2020)

zadillo said:


> I’m not really sure any of that justifies calling someone a Spitfire plant or fanboy


You're probably right.


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## CT (May 31, 2020)

Jett Hitt said:


> To me, that turn came when you dismissed my example out of hand.



Don't worry. You can be safely and comfortably free of people "dismissing" your examples (apparently equivalent to simply not finding them as big a deal as you) for a while, as I can't stomach the utterly silly clashes that happen on here now and then. Enjoy.


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## Mattia Chiappa (May 31, 2020)

OleJoergensen said:


> I think this short demoes, made with the pro version, sounds wonderful.
> 
> Edit: I think it is BBC brass layered with Sample Modeling Brass....



I'm using SM for most of the brass. BBC only for shorts and sometimes I layer SM with 4 horns or 3 trumpets. The solo horn you're hearing is Sample Modeling horn 1


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## easyrider (May 31, 2020)

easyrider said:


> How does the percussion compare to the JB percussion ? Could it be used with SSS etc...?
> 
> Thanks


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## muziksculp (May 31, 2020)

Mattia Chiappa said:


> I'm using SM for most of the brass. BBC only for shorts and sometimes I layer SM with 4 horns or 3 trumpets. The solo horn you're hearing is Sample Modeling horn 1



@Mattia Chiappa , Thanks for the feedback.

Why didn't you use the solo horn from BBCSO Pro ?


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## Mattia Chiappa (May 31, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> @Mattia Chiappa , Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> Why didn't you use the solo horn from BBCSO Pro ?


Well, because I like Sample Modeling better ahaha


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## muziksculp (May 31, 2020)

Mattia Chiappa said:


> Well, because I like Sample Modeling better ahaha



That makes sense, we are free to use what we like best, I just want to know if there is a major issue with the BBCSO Pro Solo Horn if you had used it instead of the SM Solo Horn.

Thanks.


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## muziksculp (May 31, 2020)

Here is Paul's walkthrough video, showing the Solo Horn in BBCSO Pro. I can't hear any major issues in the video.


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## Jett Hitt (May 31, 2020)

miket said:


> Don't worry. You can be safely and comfortably free of people "dismissing" your examples (apparently equivalent to simply not finding them as big a deal as you) for a while, as I can't stomach the utterly silly clashes that happen on here now and then. Enjoy.


You're exactly right. It is all silly. I overreacted and shouldn't have. I apologize. That horn has caused me no small amount of frustration. In the beginning, I was terribly (and naively) concerned about losing the "cohesion" of the sound by substituting other libraries. Mostly, I just found myself substituting the horn section for the solo horn all of the time. It was only later that I realized (actually by watching Mattia's video) that other composers were doing this to great success. So I just routinely use other horns now. But you know, this is now dubbed a "pro" product. I shouldn't have to do that. Imagine that the actual BBC Orchestra is performing your piece, and you don't like the lead horn player. Do you send someone down the street to fetch the principal horn from the LSO?


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## OleJoergensen (May 31, 2020)

Mattia Chiappa said:


> I'm using SM for most of the brass. BBC only for shorts and sometimes I layer SM with 4 horns or 3 trumpets. The solo horn you're hearing is Sample Modeling horn 1


Thank you Mattia.


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## Fleer (May 31, 2020)

miket said:


> Don't worry. You can be safely and comfortably free of people "dismissing" your examples (apparently equivalent to simply not finding them as big a deal as you) for a while, as I can't stomach the utterly silly clashes that happen on here now and then. Enjoy.


Stay on, miket, it’s all good now.


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## muziksculp (May 31, 2020)

Less than 3:00 Hrs left to decide ...


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## OleJoergensen (May 31, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> Less than 3:00 Hrs left to decide ...


Im downloading now......and for the next 2-3 days


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## Jett Hitt (May 31, 2020)

OleJoergensen said:


> Im downloading now......and for the next 2-3 days


Congratulations! It is an incredible sound overall. You're going to love it. It is the perfect extension to StaffPad. I obviously have my issues with certain components, but make no mistake about it, it is the backbone of my orchestra.


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## johjoh (May 31, 2020)

Just before the bell :

Looking for libraries to get a full orchestra.
Currently have a basic library with Albion One, some very nice additional articulations with i.e. BDT, AOC, Forzo.
Also two "deep" string libraries : SCS and VSL Dimension Strings.

I could go for SSO-CE : € 659
Alternatively : JH Selects Pro : € 898 (benefit : additional - large section - strings + Harp)
Alternatively : SStoPro : € 699 (since this library is more dry, will probably will be easier to blend the other string libraries)

None of the above have Percussion , which would be another € 239 (in case of Spitifre's JB Percussion).

A tempting alternative to all above is the BBCSO Pro, for € 700 ...
That includes full orchestral percussion + Harp ...

Pricewise, the last option seems to be a no-brainer, but I wonder if the woodwinds / brass are at the level (or at least very near) of either SSO / SStoPro ???


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## José Herring (May 31, 2020)

miket said:


> Man, people keep saying the brass is weak... I must be outta my mind.


You're not. People said that about SSS and yet in demo after demo I don't find that to be the case.

Many people grew up on Media Venture's hyped brass and though Hans and his team are really no longer doing that, but yet have instead gone to bigger sections naturally recorded, for some reason that still is the standard many aspire too. 

So when they hear natural brass or a natural orchestra you hear comments like, "it sounds weak", or "lacks bass" blah, blah....

I don't own SSS or BBCSO yet, but to my ears from the demo, the brass is perfectly balanced and resonant which is far more useful. If people want more "bite" they can add EQ and saturation or get Angry Brass which was purposefully recorded at FFF levels for action and trailer ear splitting head banging levels.


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## Manuel Stumpf (May 31, 2020)

johjoh said:


> Just before the bell :
> Alternatively : SStoPro : € 699 (since this library is more dry, will probably will be easier to blend the other string libraries)


If you like the room tone of Albion and SCS:
Albion One and SCS are recorded in the same room as SSO as well as JB Percussion. If you want to mix those it would be easiest to get SSO-CE or JH Selects Pro (which is an incredible price by the way).
The studio series has been recorded in a different room. If you really want to mix studio series with SCS, Albion, I think this is more difficult.
All the above of course only makes sense if you like the reverberant hall sound.


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## Rory (May 31, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> Less than 3:00 Hrs left to decide ...



I'm curious to see what you decide.

I don't make my living from virtual instruments, and I've decided to spend a few months finding out the strengths and limits of Core before sinking another $400 into the library.

Tomorrow, I'm going to drop by B&H, which is open for pickup, to get the new version of Samsung's T7. Last year, I put together a 1TB MVMe M.2 drive. Samsung's price, US$200, is unbeatable.

I'll use the T7 in part for Core, and it will be in hand if I wind up purchasing Pro. This won't be the last time that Pro is offered at a 30% discount. If I purchase Pro, it will be for concrete reasons based on experience with the library, which would not be the case if I buy it today.


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## johjoh (May 31, 2020)

Manuel Stumpf said:


> If you like the room tone of Albion and SCS:
> Albion One and SCS are recorded in the same room as SSO as well as JB Percussion. If you want to mix those it would be easiest to get SSO-CE or JH Selects Pro (which is an incredible price by the way).
> The studio series has been recorded in a different room. If you really want to mix studio series with SCS, Albion, I think this is more difficult.
> All the above of course only makes sense if you like the reverberant hall sound.



You're right, I guess I unconsciously was thinking about "vsl dimension strings"-integration ...
I really like the sound of SCS, i'm not particularly overwhelmed by the strings in Albion. Not that they're bad, certainly from a quality/price perspective, but SCS and Dimension Strings are more refined (besides the different focus of couse).

Probably should stress very complete Woodwinds are of great importance.


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## OleJoergensen (May 31, 2020)

Jett Hitt said:


> Congratulations! It is an incredible sound overall. You're going to love it. It is the perfect extension to StaffPad. I obviously have my issues with certain components, but make no mistake about it, it is the backbone of my orchestra.


Thank you.
Im happy to hear about the sound, it is what Im looking for. I hope I can find a workflow with integrating Staffpad.


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## muziksculp (May 31, 2020)

OleJoergensen said:


> Im downloading now......and for the next 2-3 days



Congrats ! 

Enjoy having the BBC Orchestra sound at your finger tips.


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## OleJoergensen (May 31, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> Congrats !
> 
> Enjoy having the BBC Orchestra sound at your finger tips.


Thank you.
I wish the same for you


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## Mattia Chiappa (Jun 1, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> That makes sense, we are free to use what we like best, I just want to know if there is a major issue with the BBCSO Pro Solo Horn if you had used it instead of the SM Solo Horn.
> 
> Thanks.


Specific to that example, the horn is the lead instrument and SM is simply way more expressive due to the nature of the library. If I had to use BBC, I would in other contexts for background stuff or doubling lead instruments, either using the very top dynamic layer or bottom with no mod wheel riding.


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 1, 2020)

miket said:


> Man, people keep saying the brass is weak... I must be outta my mind.


Mike, come on mate. You know the rules by now. If VI Control Wisdom™ says it so, then it must be true. 😉


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## DovesGoWest (Jun 1, 2020)

Mattia Chiappa said:


> Specific to that example, the horn is the lead instrument and SM is simply way more expressive due to the nature of the library. If I had to use BBC, I would in other contexts for background stuff or doubling lead instruments, either using the very top dynamic layer or bottom with no mod wheel riding.


I’ve managed to find a way to use the solo horn in its chocolatey state. Definitely lead the mod wheel cc01 alone and then bump up cc07 and cc11. Also keep velocities really low otherwise you get a punch at the start of every note


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## muziksculp (Jun 1, 2020)

Mattia Chiappa said:


> Specific to that example, the horn is the lead instrument and SM is simply way more expressive due to the nature of the library. If I had to use BBC, I would in other contexts for background stuff or doubling lead instruments, either using the very top dynamic layer or bottom with no mod wheel riding.



I see, thanks for the feedback. I am tempted to buy SM Brass Bundle which is on sale, but keep delaying it. Especially for their Trumpet and Trombone, which are very popular, now I know the Horn is very good as well.


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## jaketanner (Sep 5, 2020)

Question about the leader patch. So if the strings ensemble is 16 players, adding the leader will Mae it 17? yet, there is a leader mic position that can be included...so where is the leader sitting amongst the 16 players? It would be fantastic if developers would record on less player IF they ware going to include the leaders/first chairs...OR have a patch with one less player IF you are going to use the leader/first chair in addition. This makes most sense to me...rather than add one more player per section which doesn't really happen in a live setting.

Does this all make sense? LOL. Any thoughts? Thanks.


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## muziksculp (Sep 5, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> Question about the leader patch. So if the strings ensemble is 16 players, adding the leader will Mae it 17? yet, there is a leader mic position that can be included...so where is the leader sitting amongst the 16 players? It would be fantastic if developers would record on less player IF they ware going to include the leaders/first chairs...OR have a patch with one less player IF you are going to use the leader/first chair in addition. This makes most sense to me...rather than add one more player per section which doesn't really happen in a live setting.
> 
> Does this all make sense? LOL. Any thoughts? Thanks.



I think when using sample libraries, or even in real players scenario, you won't hear the difference in an ensemble string made up of 16 vs 15, vs 17 players, so it is not a critical detail.


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## jaketanner (Sep 5, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> I think when using sample libraries, or even in real players scenario, you won't hear the difference in an ensemble string made up of 16 vs 15, vs 17 players, so it is not a critical detail.


I suppose.


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## jaketanner (Sep 12, 2020)

So...got pro last night. I am converting a little test I did with Discover. Oddly, the Celeste sustain in Discover, seems to be a sustain mute in Pro. When I switch to Damped medium in Pro, it rings out, when I switch to sustain in Pro, it's muted...is this a backwards bug? Or am I doing something wrong.


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## fayez (Nov 10, 2020)

holywilly said:


> That's a tough question, both SSS and BBCSO could yield convincing result.
> 
> I'll recommend BBCSO if people want the full orchestra as one package.
> 
> ...


Hello, can you suggest the the help for extra bite for BBCSO pro


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## holywilly (Nov 11, 2020)

fayez said:


> Hello, can you suggest the the help for extra bite for BBCSO pro


My strings combination is VSL Dimension Strings (VI) + VSL Synchron Strings Pro or BBCSO Strings.
For brass: BBCSO Brass + JXL Brass
For Woodwinds: solely using VSL Woodwinds I & II (VI)


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