# The Pirating of my Library



## InSessionAudio (Nov 15, 2012)

For a long time I have felt ambivalent about piracy in the digital realm. As the owner, operator and janitor for Nine Volt Audio I long ago came to an acceptance that my sound libraries would be pirated, offered free for the taking to the likes of thousands. I remember long ago, back around the time of my second or third release, the utterly sick, punch-in-the-gut feeling I got upon discovering a Nine Volt Audio library posted to a pirate site for the first time. But that feeling has gone away, and has been replaced with a “what-will-be-will-be” feeling.

Recently I was made aware that TAIKO 2 had been pirated. TAIKO 2 is a 2.4 GB Kontakt format library containing over 11,500 samples of Japanese drums. I released it less than four months ago. 

How was it pirated? Someone used a credit card fraudulently with one of our distributors to purchase a download copy of it. By the time the fraud had been discovered, the download of the library was complete. Within two days of this happening, the pirated version was up on the web.






*What about Copy Protection? *

Up to now, I have chosen not to implement copy protection within the Nine Volt Audio libraries. Why? Because a quick look around the web will most likely reveal a cracked version of your favorite software or sound library. Other protection systems, such as “digital watermarking” (a method by which every library contains a unique identifier to the copy the purchaser downloads) would have failed in this instance, since the purchase was made fraudulently in someone else’s name.

*What about the Law?*

It seems that some sites that host and/or refer users to cracked and stolen software acknowledge the existence of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) – a United States law that, amongst other things, criminalizes dissemination and services to circumvent the protection of copy written material. I submitted an official “Abuse of DMCA” email to one referring site, along with a 2nd email that read:

_Hello,
I own/operate Nine Volt Audio. I see that our "TAIKO 2" library has just been added to your site.

I humbly ask that you consider taking it down. I did the majority of the work on the TAIKO 2 library and it represents about 10 weeks of work for me. 

I/Nine Volt Audio can only put out around four libraries a year, so having stuff freely available can have a real impact on me.

Thank you.

Kyle Z_

I received a response the next day that read:

_Sure... if that's what you want  Have a good week._

The reference to TAIKO 2 was deleted from their site.

However, when I read the response I pictured a shoplifter leaving a store, but stopping briefly to wink at the storeowner before completing their exit. 

Within another two days, the first two pages of Google revealed five other sites illegally referring to the TAIKO 2 library. Sending more DMCA abuse emails might help, but the library will forever exist in the Torrent and Usenet systems of the world, no matter the amount of action taken.






*What Does it Take?*

With so many sample and loop libraries released into the world on a daily basis, one could be forgiven for never giving any consideration to how one is put together.

Here is an abridged version of what it took to create TAIKO 2.

Initial planning: I coordinated with a partner to secure access to the drums, the performance hall, percussionists, and any recording equipment that I could not practically travel with. This groundwork, along with discussions about how best to record the drums took place over many months, with countless phone calls, Skype chats and emails.

Travel: A large collection of taiko drums does not travel. I had to go to them. I booked a flight and traveled from Nashville, Tennessee to Columbus, Ohio. 

Sessions: With setup, recording and teardown, approximately 40 hours of session time was packed into four days. During this time over 8000 hits/samples were performed and recorded, a task that morphs into a “water torture” feel by the end of the first day. 

Editing: Because I recorded from four stereo microphone positions, with additional mono microphones to record solo drums, the editing of 8000 hits gets multiplied out to the creation of approximately 30000 files. Listening to every hit, slicing them up, trimming, fading, naming, organizing by velocity, splitting into groups, layering, and then mapping to the keyboard took several weeks. 

Programming: Just getting the samples into the Kontakt sampler is one thing. Transforming it into a customizable and inspiring-to-play instrument is another. Over a month was spent writing custom code (aka “scripting”), designing interface graphics, developing custom impulse responses, and generally refining the product through numerous revisions.

Getting it Out: Over a week was spent creating the cover art, demo MP3s, video walk through, PDF manual, website update, DVD creation and promotional art (banner ads, email artwork, etc…).

And this is just the time I spent. My partner for this particular project invested at least a month of his own time contributing and adding to many of the aspects listed above.






*Looking at the Numbers*

It is impossible to quantify the financial impact that the pirating of TAIKO 2 will have. How many people will consider purchasing the library, but will first check to see if there is “free” copy somewhere on the web? How many people will download a pirated copy just because they can? No one can ever know these numbers. But perhaps another perspective could be instructive.

One pirate site currently lists 13,699 illegal downloads of TAIKO 2. If each person had paid $1.00 for his or her copy from this site, it would amount to more than the library has grossed so far. I disclose this information to illustrate the point that these libraries are investments, and getting them “in the black” takes time, effort and further capital to promote them.






*Who Loses? *

I think it is reasonable to assume that this library’s sales potential will be hurt by the existence of a pirated version. But who else does this impact? Consider for a moment if TAIKO 2 had not been made: 

- Airfare to the recording location and lodging would not have been purchased. 

- Purchases for recording equipment and software specifically used to create TAIKO 2 would not have been made.

- Percussionists would not have been hired for the sampling session.

- A programmer would not have been hired to help in the creation of the Kontakt script.

- Advertising on the web and in print would not have been purchased.

This is only a partial list. There are numerous other positive financial ripples created for others by this library, not least-of-which are the composers that create and sell music utilizing the TAIKO 2 samples. 

There are soft costs associated with piracy, too. It is easy to imagine that at times, some paying customers get a tinge of, “I’m a sucker for buying this when everyone else can take it for free.” 

*Who Gains?*

Besides the individuals that download TAIKO 2 without paying, who else gains? 

Most obvious: websites that host or aggregate links to pirated material. These sites often sell membership and subscription services. 

Less obvious: many referring sites are loaded with ads served up by Google, amongst others. Clicking on those ads makes money for the webmaster and the advertising servicer.






*In Closing*

When I get stuck thinking about TAIKO 2 being pirated, my mind usually goes to one of three thoughts:

- How heavy the drums were.  Getting them on and off the recording stage – sometimes taking two or three people to move just one drum. The thought of that physical act, combined with the knowledge that someone is freely taking TAIKO 2 gets under my skin. 

- My partner on TAIKO 2 is having a kid in a few months. The fact that this library has been pirated sucks for him.

- What will the future bring? Despite my passion for doing what I do, is that enough to press on knowing that the products will be pirated?

But if I think a bit longer on it, my self-preservation kicks in with the “what-will-be-will-be” thought. The fact that I slip into this way of thinking is perhaps most upsetting of all.

[mp3]http://www.ninevoltaudio.com/MP3s/TAIKO_2_Demo_02_Low_Kit.mp3[/mp3]

[mp3]http://www.ninevoltaudio.com/MP3s/TAIKO_2_Demo_01_Close_Kit.mp3[/mp3]

*Acknowledgements:* A "thank you" to the folks at 8 Dio for catching the first pirated posting early on and letting my TAIKO 2 partner know.


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## reddognoyz (Nov 15, 2012)

Sorry about this pirating. What a drag! I wish there was an airtight way to protect developers like you, and ultimately end-users like myself who want to see thriving sucessful business creating more amazing products from which I earn my living. I don't use any cracks.


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## Resoded (Nov 15, 2012)

Not using a single pirated library/program.

Sadly, most people in my age download pirated programs, libraries, music and movies. They don't even have the decency to be ashamed of it. Most of them throw around bullshit arguments in the line of:

"The internet cannot be controlled, the developers have to adapt". Yeah right. Anyone who has even the slightest grasp of basic marketing and intellectual property rights, and why they are necessary, knows how screwed up these arguments are. And on top of that, these people are self proclaimed good guys who cares about people. They can spend 100 usd on booze and cigarettes in a weekend, but they can't pay 3-6 usd to rent a movie they apparently love.

I really hope that the justice system will catch up and find reasonable ways to enforce these laws. The majority will stop doing this when they know they can get caught.


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## germancomponist (Nov 15, 2012)

I remember some days ago when I googled for CS 2 update..... . I wrote an emal to Alex, showing him the link directly.

It is a very sadly thing!


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## Ed (Nov 15, 2012)

Yea that sucks, but I do maintain that a large majority of the downloads are from people that wouldn't have bought it anyway and are mostly just kids trying to make action music for yooootooobs. They are the kind of people that download everything whether they need it or use it or not.


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## playz123 (Nov 15, 2012)

In spite of the all the rhetoric from people who feel it's okay to steal, theft is theft whether you steal software, music or someone's cell phone. In spite of everyone's best efforts, the 'stealing is okay' approach is visible everywhere these days, and I see no end in sight. Yet you can be sure that if the thief ever has something stolen that belongs to them, they will be screaming blue murder as soon as they discover it.
I don't know what the answer is, but I do sympathize deeply with victims of theft and have felt their pain myself. I guess all an individual can do right now is to lead by example. Perhaps if some thief admires a person who is honest, they will be influenced by that behavior. Certainly developers must be somewhat relieved to know too that many honest people want to buy and support their products. But on the other hand it probably never quite makes up for the pain of knowing others are stealing what they worked so hard to create...products that may often generate the only source of income they and their co-workers have. Sad indeed.


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## park bench (Nov 15, 2012)

Ed, while you may be correct that is like saying,
"When you get ganged up on and beat up by 13 people, 10 of them aren't boxing pros and cannot name the technique/move they hit you with."

_Not trying for an argument..._


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Nov 15, 2012)

We need to band together and form a team. We should then contact every web site that hosts cracked copies. Perhaps there's power in numbers?


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## doctornine (Nov 15, 2012)

I really fail to see how anyone can argue this is anything other than stealing.

I make my living from music, I am reliant on my publishers and PRO paying me. 
I figure that it's my duty to support sound developers buy paying for their product, how is what hey do different to what I do from a business perspective ? 
They supply a product you must pay to use.

For the very same reason I pay for all the music I get. If an artist has invested all the blood, sweat, tears and money in their music. Then you damn well need to pay for it to support them.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Nov 15, 2012)

We've discussed this ad nauseam. IMHO, we should be talking about how to best use the resources of our community, *not* about the causes/effects of piracy, how to define it, who it impacts, blah, blah, blah. Let's ACT.

For one thing, we can open up a new, non-public section here, and freely share info about sites and pirates.


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## Mike Marino (Nov 15, 2012)

> We need to band together and form a team. We should then contact every web site that hosts cracked copies. Perhaps there's power in numbers?



+1


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## germancomponist (Nov 15, 2012)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Nov 15 said:


> We need to band together and form a team. We should then contact every web site that hosts cracked copies. Perhaps there's power in numbers?



A good idea! There must be something we can organize! We = all forum members here.

I hope there are no forum members here who download these cracked libs!


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## Sean Beeson (Nov 15, 2012)

I know the guy having the kid also had his roof leak in because of a bad contractor... Pirates stink 

I believe the original Tsaiko (WAY back when) was pirated over way over 1k copies by my unofficial count. Luckily it has gradually disappeared from a lot of sites.


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## MichaelL (Nov 15, 2012)

Scumbags. Theft is inexcusable. 

I agree with Ned 100%. Expose them, not that they'll feel any shame, obviously they don't. But perhaps we can cause anyone passing through here to think twice before they buy pirated libraries.


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## guydoingmusic (Nov 15, 2012)

I have to disagree with the statement that "the majority" are just kids doing this... I have had the good fortune of traveling to several studios across the country to play sessions. And I saw first hand, a large amount of them passing pirated software back and forth. I overheard conversations like, "Hey man.. you want the Wave's Diamond Bundle?" "Can you find me the latest version of Stylus?" I even had someone directly ask me to burn them a copy of my purchased version of Symphobia. None of these people were kids... they were all adults and all making money in this business. 

I'm not saying every studio I visited has pirated software in their possession... but it's more than you realize. 

Brad


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## Freesamples (Nov 15, 2012)

IMO. There is nothing we can do to stop already pirated product from download. It'll live forever on torrent trackers. Personally I'd be happy if EVERY audio software and sample libraries developers will start using something that's impossible to crack. Right now it's iLok2 and last version of e-Licenser. If EVERY developer will move to these dongles then all users will be forced to buy dongles. So that will solve "don't have a dongle" problem.


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## Chriss Ons (Nov 15, 2012)

Sucks big time. Just last week I reported a torrent site to one of the devs who posts regularly on here. It bothers me a great deal that the people who are responsible for making this an almost unviable business, seem to get away with it so often.

But I don't think it's a particularly good idea to post / share specifics about illegal downloads on this public forum... think of the consequences first.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Nov 15, 2012)

If you scroll back up a bit, you'll see that I suggested a *non-public *section for sharing info. We have some here already.


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## Chriss Ons (Nov 15, 2012)

Ned Bouhalassa @ 15th November said:


> If you scroll back up a bit, you'll see that I suggested a *non-public *section for sharing info. We have some here already.




Ned, I realize that. With public I mean that *anyone can sign up here. *


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## MacQ (Nov 15, 2012)

One option is to ditch Kontakt/KSP entirely and develop in Machfive 3 (with LUA scripting). Then you can get iLok protection for your soundware AND a freely available player (UVI Workstation 2). I think this is the only reasonable way to try avoiding lost sales, and it's certainly the path I'm considering for my (eventual) commercial offerings.


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## Diffusor (Nov 15, 2012)

MacQ @ Thu Nov 15 said:


> One option is to ditch Kontakt/KSP entirely and develop in Machfive 3 (with LUA scripting). Then you can get iLok protection for your soundware AND a freely available player (UVI Workstation 2). I think this is the only reasonable way to try avoiding lost sales, and it's certainly the path I'm considering for my (eventual) commercial offerings.



Don't you limit your potential customer base though? Kontakt is the giant. Mach5 hardly even registers. I don't own any libraries on it or plan too. I hate the thought of using so many different players for so many different libraries.


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## TheUnfinished (Nov 15, 2012)

Brad is unfortunately right. The majority of pirates may well be kids, but there are pro studios and pro artists using cracked software and libraries.

The audio production community needs an Anonymous character that make life hell for the sites that host pirated gear by constantly taking down and interrupting their sites.

Oh, and (of course) sorry for Zack and Sean. I'm about to start making my own sample libraries and fully expect to run into this crap too.


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## dannthr (Nov 15, 2012)

Even if we don't have a special section, we should all of us be looking out for one another.

If you see it happening, don't let it slide, tell someone.

I remember emailing Troels when someone on a forum proudly admitted to stealing Requiem--I don't know how he could use that information, but if it helped him at all, I'm happy to do my part.

The indie library developers can't always afford copy protection, but their libraries are important, and the beautiful diversity of options allows all of us to create richer productions.

It is always to our own benefit to do what we can to make sure these guys are not victims of pirating.


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## Gusfmm (Nov 15, 2012)

As much as some end-users complain about it, it is these cases that make developers appreciate the additional layer of protection a dongle provides. Yes, it adds complexity to the registration process, some cost to the library, and constant complaining from disgruntled users who don't like depending upon a little dangling thingy sticking out of their laptops to be able to operate their several thousand bills libraries. And a few other downsides.

But. As in every story, there is always at least two sides, and this side Kyle brings up today, is very sad and unfortunate indeed. As an owner and end-user of your great library Kyle, I quite symphatize with you.


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## toomanynotes (Nov 15, 2012)

i don't understand, anyone 'composers' making money from using samples on tv film would get noticed and fined? who doesn't know if their own samples are being used??

Surely it's probably better listening out for your samples and getting money back from suing ppl that don't have a license? Sorry i just don't understand how ppl can get away with illegal downloads. I thought the whole point was to have a license to use the samples in broadcast material.
Has there ever been a successful prosecution? :? 

Anyway sorry to hear about it.


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## Ed (Nov 15, 2012)

park bench @ Thu Nov 15 said:


> Ed, while you may be correct that is like saying,
> "When you get ganged up on and beat up by 13 people, 10 of them aren't boxing pros and cannot name the technique/move they hit you with."
> 
> _Not trying for an argument..._



I dont really understand your point


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## Ed (Nov 15, 2012)

MacQ @ Thu Nov 15 said:


> One option is to ditch Kontakt/KSP entirely and develop in Machfive 3 (with LUA scripting). Then you can get iLok protection for your soundware AND a freely available player (UVI Workstation 2). I think this is the only reasonable way to try avoiding lost sales, and it's certainly the path I'm considering for my (eventual) commercial offerings.



They will find a way around it if everyone starts developing for that instead, and then once its cracked thats it. So once again you just make it harder for the consumer. You should make it awkward initially, but there comes a point where it is counter productive. I remember hearing about why Mac's traditionally have not had so many virus' and its not because Mac's are so impossible to write a virus for but because less people used them so people were more bothered about exploiting Windows. The only reason something like the Yellow Tools Engine sampler is considered better for piracy is currently hardly anything is available on it that anyone actually wants. I guarantee that would change if everyone started developing for that instead. While that may seem initially attractive, you're initially putting off customers that would have bought it had it been on Kontakt and you're only jumping onto another ship thats equally likely to sink if everyone has the same thought as you do.

I think that in the end people are going to have to quit trying to think they can stop piracy, so long as there is software there will be piracy. Its working around it and coming up with a business model that draws people in and makes them more likely to buy that is the only way.


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## MaestroRage (Nov 15, 2012)

can happily join the "everything I use is legal" club. I'm not sure what a task force of sorts could accomplish realistically but perhaps it's worth considering.


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## Andrew Aversa (Nov 15, 2012)

Yeah, I disagree with relying on dongles and other things that make life harder for legit customers. Trying to go after pirates (or websites w/ pirated links) is mostly futile, but I won't discourage anyone from it... our goal should be to provide the best possible experience for the legit customer, including easy delivery, great price, etc. The Steam model, if you will.


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## Tatu (Nov 15, 2012)

That just sucks. Big time.

I've always wondered, if those who take the first step (share the software/libraries etc) are some _actual _music hobbyists/wanna-be's or just random kids and bunch of fu*king idiots doing that for the "fun of it".

Sad thing is, that no matter how many e-mails you (or all of us) send and bombard to that pirating community, it'll never disappear to be taken for free for anyone willing to take the low road.


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 15, 2012)

What a sad story, but thank you for posting it. It's a shame that people who pirate libraries are unlikely to read it. It's easy to dehumanise piracy, to imagine that it's just big faceless corporations who are being denied huge profits.

Mach Five is interesting. I don't have it, and have no real interest in it - Kontakt does all I want or need very well. BUT - and it's a big but - if great libraries appeared exclusive to the format, I'd look again pretty quickly. I do think NI have been guilty of sitting on their hands for too long... and I also think you can only get away with it for so long.  Developers abhor a vacuum...

I think a big step forward would be a free Mach Five player. I'd go as far as suggesting perhaps the best approach to piracy right now would be for developers to get together and make a consolidated approach to MOTU to make moves on such a thing. It should be win-win - just as with Kontakt, users will want to upgrade to the full version for complete customisation once they have the player, so MOTU should gain from the arrangement.

I don't like iLoks. But they are a fact of life for me already - Pro Tools, EW stuff etc. There will be some who would complain bitterly about this move, but stuff 'em. Assuming Mach Five is as good as they say, and the player allowed for normal customisation options (like Kontakt Player, not like Play), then it wouldn't be a barrier to me for a good library. And if a lot of devs went down this road together, it might just provide a big culture change to the industry.

EDIT - just seen that my post has been superceded by otherrs while typing! And that UVI Workstation already works as a free player - didn't know that. Is it a good player?

I disagree with Ed here that devs shouldn't try because it will just get cracked. The fact is after many years, the iLok libraries are WAY WAY more secure than Kontakt ones. Maybe it will be cracked one day, but I don't think it's an excuse to do nothing.

If there's a better secure system that all can use a la Spectrasonics, then great - but I don't know of one. I'm beginning to see NI as a bit of a villain in this long saga, they shouldn't be able to get away with it for every.


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## SergeD (Nov 15, 2012)

NineVoltAudio @ Thu Nov 15 said:


> Within another two days, the first two pages of Google revealed five other sites illegally referring to the TAIKO 2 library.



How come Google and friends cannot, at least, block those sites appearance within the first pages?

With their complex and sophisticated algorithms they can know how much pennies everybody has in his pocket but it seems impossible to track words like warez, cracked etc... 

So much work and creativity for such results :(


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## midi_controller (Nov 15, 2012)

guydoingmusic @ Thu Nov 15 said:


> I have to disagree with the statement that "the majority" are just kids doing this... I have had the good fortune of traveling to several studios across the country to play sessions. And I saw first hand, a large amount of them passing pirated software back and forth. I overheard conversations like, "Hey man.. you want the Wave's Diamond Bundle?" "Can you find me the latest version of Stylus?" I even had someone directly ask me to burn them a copy of my purchased version of Symphobia. None of these people were kids... they were all adults and all making money in this business.
> 
> I'm not saying every studio I visited has pirated software in their possession... but it's more than you realize.
> 
> Brad



Honestly, I am shocked by this. I was always under the impression that those who could afford to pay for things actually would, not to mention that anyone who used a sample library professionally actually owned it. I guess I was giving people too much credit. :(



zircon_st @ Thu Nov 15 said:


> Yeah, I disagree with relying on dongles and other things that make life harder for legit customers. Trying to go after pirates (or websites w/ pirated links) is mostly futile, but I won't discourage anyone from it... our goal should be to provide the best possible experience for the legit customer, including easy delivery, great price, etc. The Steam model, if you will.



Actually, I used to think I would never get anything that used a dongle, but then I finally broke down and got some new EW libs and haven't had any problems with it so far. It was all fairly painless. The problem is that if everyone starts using dongles, how much you want to bet we will start seeing cracks or dongle emulators or something. I think the only saving grace is that not that many companies use them so they don't attract that much attention.


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## TGV (Nov 15, 2012)

That's very sad to hear. The other day, on a programmer's forum, someone remarked


> Cubase is what every musician I know who does digital audio production uses for that job.
> I can't think of a single one who has actually paid for a licence.


I think that sums it up. Copy protection is probably not the way to go: if Cubase can be pirated, anything can. Plus, it costs money. You could try pursuading the file-sharing sites themselves into taking your files off-line. The web-sites will still have the links, but the actual files won't be there anymore. I don't know if this is a particularly good list, but I could find extabit.com, bitshare.com, rapidgator.net, and uploaded.net. There might be more, but they are all very afraid that they will go the way of Kim Dot Com, so ...


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Nov 15, 2012)

IMO, the goal is not to eradicate piracy all together (never happen) but to be a thorn on the side of the hosts of cracked libraries. Not just a fly, but a swarm of flies. We are thousands here!


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## park bench (Nov 15, 2012)

Ed @ Thu 15 Nov said:


> I dont really understand your point


Regardless of who punched, how, when, or where Zack and Sean got punched, they got punched.

If the kids who want to make yoootoobs can't pay for it, they shouldn't download it. just because someone acts stupid doesn't mean they shouldn't pay for their mistakes.


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## guydoingmusic (Nov 15, 2012)

I know Waves did a campaign a few years ago, where they anonymously called up studios in certain areas and specifically asked if they had certain Waves plugins that loved on their vocal chain for example. Then if the studio responded with a "Yes! We have the whole bundle!" then they actually showed up to the studio on the day of the booking... and requested their proof of purchase and license. I know someone who was caught red handed and fined $10,000. 

I realize that is a lot of work for smaller operations... but just thought some of the dev's might appreciate another idea on how to actually protect their investments. 

Brad


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 15, 2012)

TGV @ Thu Nov 15 said:


> That's very sad to hear. The other day, on a programmer's forum, someone remarked
> 
> 
> > Cubase is what every musician I know who does digital audio production uses for that job.
> ...



Well, no - that's a fallacy. Just because one dongle got cracked, doesn't mean they all will, or indeed are. iLok is clearly made of stronger stuff. AFAIK, any hooky EW products out there are from their Kontakt days.


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## Ed (Nov 15, 2012)

park bench @ Thu Nov 15 said:


> Ed @ Thu 15 Nov said:
> 
> 
> > I dont really understand your point
> ...



No one disputes that, all Im saying is that what shouldnt happen is doing what they do in the rest of the entertainment industry and class every single download of a torrent or view on a website streaming the material as a lost sale. It simply does not work that way. If you want to determine your *actual *loses due to piracy you have to do better maths than this. We've had this debate so many times here


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## Ed (Nov 15, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Thu Nov 15 said:


> I disagree with Ed here that devs shouldn't try because it will just get cracked.



My point isnt that they shouldnt try, they just shouldnt believe that there is a way to stop piracy completely. The only reason people are pirating more Kontakt libs is the majority of material is available for it, as I say if that changed they would just switch to MachFive or whatever it is. It is I believe a waste of resources for devs to go above a certain amount of anti-piracy measures. The entertainment industry has already been there and failed over and over, if they had realised earlier they would have saved billions of $$$. 

Also consider this aspect: I would probably already have Tari's libs now if they were on Kontakt, and I'd be willing to bet that he is losing way more in people not buying due to it being on Engine than from what he "saved" from the lack of piracy (assuming it hasnt been cracked). So, are people so sure its better for business to migrate over to another sampler? I wouldnt.


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## bobulusbillman (Nov 15, 2012)

What if Kontakt 6 had the frameworks in place so that if a developer chose to use an iLok as copy protection then they could?


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## Maestro77 (Nov 15, 2012)

Outstanding post, Kyle. An interesting read about what goes into producing a library such as yours, too. Proud to say I pay for all my products, but I know colleagues out there who don't. Believe me, I give them an earfull. Not only does it piss me off because I just paid for mine (ha), it also makes me think about those companies losing money as a result. All we as consumers can do is continue to purchase legitimately and encourage others to do the same. People I know who justify stealing software because they're "struggling artists" will continue to struggle - karma is real. Hopefully your post will discourage a few people from doing the wrong thing.


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## Audio Genetics Lab (Nov 15, 2012)

midi_controller @ Thu Nov 15 said:


> Honestly, I am shocked by this. I was always under the impression that those who could afford to pay for things actually would, not to mention that anyone who used a sample library professionally actually owned it. I guess I was giving people too much credit. :(



The problem is that it's not just a money/cost thing...it's a culture now. I had that same stomach-drop moment Kyle describes when the only paid library AGL has released showed up on the torrent sites, _and that is a $15 library_. The argument of "well, they just aren't going to pay for and will never pay for a $1000 string library so it's not really a lost sale" isn't what's going on, in my opinion. It's just a culture shift. I saw a rapid and immediate drop in sales essentially starting the very week that it appeared on the pirate sites, and more than just the typical post-release decline. There was the expected release bump, then a gradual decline began, the torrents show up, and sales effectively vanished.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Nov 15, 2012)

It's in all of our best interest that dedicated people like Kyle stay in business, prosper. Personally, I don't give a hoot about the why, how, etc. Enough with the talk of what piracy is, it's impact, etc. Let's focus on solutions, even small steps can make a difference if amplified by a community such as ours.


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## Ed (Nov 15, 2012)

Zem, the reason why that happens is exactly my point here. Some people will pirate everything and anything, not even because they want it or need it or will even use it, but because they can.

Again, if a developer wants to calculate their losses accurately they need to use better maths. I've listened to music on YT that I never, ever would have paid for even if it was a penny to buy. There is no justification to include that video view as a lost sale. Now, Im not sure how you would calculate the losses, but I know what wont give you a valid figure. Anyway, Ive said all this before...


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## synthetic (Nov 15, 2012)

Sorry to hear about the loss to your business, that's a really crummy story. 

I've come to the conclusion that not only don't I mind software copy protection, I actually _prefer_ it. One of the goals in this business is to have a unique sound. If everyone in the world has an illegal copy of XYZ drums, my stuff is that much less unique when I use them. By making libraries tougher to pirate, they're more valuable to me.


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## Audio Genetics Lab (Nov 15, 2012)

I'm reminded of the days when people would brag about how many hard drives of pirated music they had. The (partial) solution the music industry has landed on is the ability to license and stream over the paid subscriptions to things like Spotify. 

Looking to the future, when internet connectivity is as fast as an internal drive and is available at those speeds worldwide, it would be interesting to see sample companies go to some variation of subscription model that could stream the samples into RAM as needed, never take up drives and drives of storage, always be up-to-date, and handle access via subscription. This would change the business model in many many ways (some good, some bad, I'm sure), but would be interesting, and possibly help with piracy alongside things like disk requirements as libraries get larger, updates, portability, community patch-sharing...

Oh future, you will be fun.


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## Maestro77 (Nov 15, 2012)

Is it possible to encode an override that substitutes any pirated sample with The Brown Note? Perhaps a good involuntary pant soiling would teach them a lesson.


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## synergy543 (Nov 15, 2012)

Zack and Sean, sorry about your losses. You have produced some great virtual instruments which I have appreciated and are extremely useful (in the right hands). 

However if its any consolation, think about how much work those pirates will need to do to create a good music production! The truth is, they are probably one-finger, Acid-loop, Beat pirates who are too lazy, or don't have the knowledge to do much with the their pirated loot - so in this sense, their coveted jewels have already turned into synthetics.

They aren't too many talented John Depps around.

@Maestro77 - good idea - Fill the torrents with [email protected]#t and let pirate sift through the sand!


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## dannthr (Nov 15, 2012)

Can I just say, maybe I'm weird, but I am not a sample developer (though I've fantasized about doing that) but I am a composer:


I love dongles.

I wish ALL of my software instruments used dongle licensing control.

I say this without any reservation.

Dongles have always been easy for me to use and I have dealt with iLok, Steinberg, and CodeMeter.

I would love the freedom to bring my plug-ins with me wherever I go, dongles allow me to do that--legitimately.

I have never had a problem with a dongle that was extraneous beyond problems I've had with software in general.

I absolutely can not see what the fuss is about.


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## midi_controller (Nov 15, 2012)

dannthr @ Thu Nov 15 said:


> I love dongles.
> 
> I wish ALL of my software instruments used dongle licensing control.



I'd be fine with that IF they all used ONE dongle. I don't want to have to get a USB Hub just for dongles. I pick iLok since I already have one. :D


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## dannthr (Nov 15, 2012)

I got a small USB Hub like this (not the same one, mine is slightly smaller):







Which dangles out the back of my computer with all my dongles dangling delicately along.

Was cheap, takes no real estate, frees up my other USB ports--doesn't need to be powered, works wonderfully.


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## dinerdog (Nov 15, 2012)

Kyle, my heart goes out to you. I think in a small way putting a face on the whole ordeal and labor that's involved might make some people think twice.


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## zacnelson (Nov 15, 2012)

I love dongles too! I think it's a brilliant system and I wish everything required iLok2 or any number of different dongles, I don't mind. It gives me peace of mind that my product is more protected, and therefore I am investing in a more stable company whose business if likely to be more profitable and so I will benefit from continued updates and product support.


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## g.c. (Nov 15, 2012)

I've tried 5 times now to start this and stopped with each one. I'm trying to get to the point where the advertisers who are utilzing these sites and some form of boycott-public disclosure, don't quite know what to shoot at. But Lance cycling and the commercial marketing world are what 't stimulating the "little ghost thought".
Unfortunately, this whole industries approach to respecting copywrite and effort have been going harder and harder south for a long time. Depresses me. And I am so sorry for the helplessness you must feel at this "little rape". 
gc


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## Andrew Aversa (Nov 15, 2012)

I don't know how you guys can say you love dongles more than, say, C/R. You can take your plugins anywhere? Not really. If you went to someone else's studio they would obviously need to have the same plugin installed, and if they did, then they would have their own dongle and you'd be using their installation. If you're talking about one of your own computers, it's MORE inconvenient. I can have Kontakt installed on multiple machines simultaneously no problem. With a dongle, I need separate licenses, or I need to physically move the key. Not convenient.

If you lose the dongle then with many companies, you're out of luck. That can't happen with normal C/R protection.

Dongles are always less convenient for the end consumer and add a 'tax' of up to $50 which kills a large chunk of the market. I also don't buy the 'stability' argument. Native Instruments and Spectrasonics don't use dongles and they are enormously successful.


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## gsilbers (Nov 15, 2012)

in my opinion, you should be able to sue google, the ISP , owner of the site, the poeple and companies that have ads on those sites and even the hardware companies. 

alll of those are making money out your product.

imo, its not mu problem those companies cant figure out anti piracy/torrent
or cant monitor everything... they have a product they should be responsible. 


but....


if you cant fight them, join them.. . o-[][]-o 


upload your new release to several torrent sites. each with its own problem. bad samples, bad installer, wrong samples etc. 

have several forum accounts for those torrent sites and keep posting that those versions do work and are fine. have conversation with yourself (different accounts) about how to resolve the issue of samples with noise, bad installer etc. 

and for the real hacked version then add comments saying this one doesn't work. screw this etc. 

dont forgot to sound like a 15 yr old kid

o[]) watch a lot of people get frustrated with it after 2-6 gb of download per version o[])


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## midi_controller (Nov 15, 2012)

zacnelson @ Thu Nov 15 said:


> I love dongles too! I think it's a brilliant system and I wish everything required iLok2 or any number of different dongles, I don't mind. It gives me peace of mind that my product is more protected, and therefore I am investing in a more stable company whose business if likely to be more profitable and so I will benefit from continued updates and product support.



Don't get me wrong, I have no love for dongles or any copy protection methods for that matter, but I'm willing to use them if I have to. I just want it to be convenient, so whatever methods people use, please at least make it consistent.

There has got to be a better solution though. If what I keep hearing about sales figures for sample libraries is true, this is not a huge market. A good question is WHY are people pirating this stuff, especially professionals? I just can't even wrap my head around that.


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## nikolas (Nov 15, 2012)

guydoingmusic @ Thu Nov 15 said:


> I know Waves did a campaign a few years ago, where they anonymously called up studios in certain areas and specifically asked if they had certain Waves plugins that loved on their vocal chain for example. Then if the studio responded with a "Yes! We have the whole bundle!" then they actually showed up to the studio on the day of the booking... and requested their proof of purchase and license. I know someone who was caught red handed and fined $10,000.
> 
> I realize that is a lot of work for smaller operations... but just thought some of the dev's might appreciate another idea on how to actually protect their investments.
> 
> Brad


Yes they did and it didn't feel too great, if I recall correctly! Especially for those who had actually bought the plug ins: I would be VERY insulted if someone:
a. Tricked me that he's interested in working with me, in my studio, etc
b. Treated like a criminal
c. Openly telling me that they don't believe I bought the real thing

Nope, I think that while this may be a good move to get pirates, it's also a great move to appear as bitchy as possible in the eyes of the public and those loyal customers.

______________________________

I also know, first hand, that a lot of big studios, not only in Greece, are using cracked software. My reply to anyone asking me for software is simple: "I've bought my copies and as such they are copy protected to me. This means that they wouldn't work on you anyways, and as such I can't help you. sorry. But there's this great deal... blah blah". It turns them off every time, because anyone asking actually has NO idea on how a real copy protected and legally bought software works! :D

______________________________

Finally,

I'm sorry to know that yet another developer was hit so hard. It's shameful and frankly I remain speechless! :(


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 15, 2012)

Ed @ Thu Nov 15 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Thu Nov 15 said:
> 
> 
> > I disagree with Ed here that devs shouldn't try because it will just get cracked.
> ...



I think the reason you haven't bought Tari's libs are far more about Engine being not a good player than copy protection. I'm only going on 2nd hand reports, but people seem to really like Mach Five 3.

The problem with this argument is simple - iLok. It still works. Further, it's used far more widely than sample libraries, it has been a huge target for many years. My understanding may be wrong, but that's the reality. I prefer C/R, I don't like iLoks, I'd be grumpy that me, a legit end user is being penalised, but it's a fact of life and it's not enough of a barrier to stop me purchasing. If a great new library came out tomorrow with a free Mach Five player, I'd get it.

So I'm not sure I buy the argument that if more devs were to support iLok then it would act as some kind of pirate magnet. Would it make much more of a difference over all the other sectors that already use it? Seems to me that there is a solution available now that works. If Engine made rapid improvements, that might work too, though I don't know if its copy protection is anything like as rugged as iLok's.


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## Andrew Aversa (Nov 15, 2012)

iLok as a technology is fine, but let me put it this way. I believe, from our sales experience, that there is a sizable market in the $50-100 range (as an example). Many sample devs that have gone on to big orch libraries, like 8dio/Tonehammer and Cinesamples, started in this range. Many buyers in that range are hobbyists and not likely to have iLok already. To impose iLok ($50) on these customers would very possibly kill the market at that level. It's not realistic. For a $500 library? Sure. But I'd say until you hit about $150-200, it's too big of a tax on the consumer. 

Now I don't want to seem all doom and gloom.. so I will agree with Ned that it can't hurt to band together (privately?) and compile some lists of sites/forums with pirated libraries from within our dev community. We could write up some template letters, pool our resources, and send stuff out to try to take them down. For one dev, dealing with hundreds of links might be impossible. But for a community? Perhaps not.


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 15, 2012)

zircon_st @ Fri Nov 16 said:


> iLok as a technology is fine, but let me put it this way. I believe, from our sales experience, that there is a sizable market in the $50-100 range (as an example). Many sample devs that have gone on to big orch libraries, like 8dio/Tonehammer and Cinesamples, started in this range. Many buyers in that range are hobbyists and not likely to have iLok already. To impose iLok ($50) on these customers would very possibly kill the market at that level. It's not realistic. For a $500 library? Sure. But I'd say until you hit about $150-200, it's too big of a tax on the consumer.
> 
> Now I don't want to seem all doom and gloom.. so I will agree with Ned that it can't hurt to band together (privately?) and compile some lists of sites/forums with pirated libraries from within our dev community. We could write up some template letters, pool our resources, and send stuff out to try to take them down. For one dev, dealing with hundreds of links might be impossible. But for a community? Perhaps not.



50 bucks per plugin would be unrealistic. For everything - not so much. Sure it will be a barrier to some degree, but it depends on the level of support. Folks bitch and whine that it's a tax and "no dongles for me" etc.... until there's something they really want. Then they grumble and get one - and mostly forget it was ever an issue.

I am REALLY not a fan of iLok, it's weird to be arguing for its increased use. This crowd-based attack on torrents sounds interesting, but I'd like to understand a lot more before I got too excited. Fighting that battle feels almost unwinnable without help from Google etc too, but I'd love to be proven wrong. Is there an example from history of any product in any area ever that got beaten back from torrent sites?


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## Darthmorphling (Nov 15, 2012)

I can't wait until I have to plug in a dongle to get my apps to work on my phone. That will be great! I also enjoy being asked to show my receipt as I leave Guitar Center. I mean who doesn't enjoy having to prove that their stuff is theirs?

Why would you prefer a dongle to having a license file. If your dongle breaks and the company is no longer in business you are screwed. If you software that uses a license file goes under, your software will still work.

I can't believe people keep putting up with being treated like a criminal. It sucks that piracy exists, but why should legitimate customers be punished.

I have this wonderful Mitsubishi HD monitor that is 10 years old and puts out a beautiful picture. I can not buy a BluRay player that I can hook up to watch the Star Wars and LOTR Blu Rays I Purchased a few months ago. Why? Well my tv does not have a digital input. You can not buy player that outputs over component any more, despite it being able to send an hd signal. My possible solutions? I can decrypt the disks on my computer, reencode, and stream to my XBOX. Or I can buy an hdmi to component converter that will trick the player into thinking my TV is hdcp compliant. Both options are illegal by the way.

I bought the disks and have a TV that is hd, but Hollywood is so paranoid about piracy that I am being punished for it. Meanwhile, pirates can watch the Blurays with no problems.


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## Ganvai (Nov 16, 2012)

Hey Kyle, feeling with you. My band released four CDs, the first was 5 € (6,35$) and we had a charge of thousand pieces. We startet selling it on a concert and a day later in the stores. The day after the concert it was released on five different portals. We sold all the 1000 CDs, but there have been much higher downloadrates.

When we released our first full lenght album (recorded and mastered in a great studio) we sold it for 10 € (12,7$). This is really cheap, also we had to pay from our own pockets, cause the production was very expensive and we had no label. We sold 1000 CDs and round about 1000 legal Downloads at amazon and looking just on _one_ illegal portal-site we had 5000 illegal downloads. I get crazy thinking about the fact, what would have happened if we had sold just half of these downloads... 

On our other two following CDs it was just the same. It never helped that we released it as legal download on several platforms like amazon or itunes (also this costs a lot of money to for us, cause we are self publishing)

In our fanclub there was a little group, planing to write to the hosters to take off the downloads. Wasn't such a big success. Most of them ignored the mails, also our legal mails.

Couldn't imagine what we would earn with music without these downloads. Hit's us very hard cause at the beginning we payed a lot of money just to get started. And we are a very small band with a very small audience. Don't want to know what is happening with famous band-cds...

Little anecdote: We had a great concert and were giving some autograms when a little girl wanted to get an autogram on her CD. It was a copied CD made with a homeprinter. I discovered the aprents a few steps behind the girl (you have to know, there's a lot of space around us when we give autograms  ) and they kept smiling and holding thumbs up. They even weren't ashamed. The little girl got her autogram but I was happy no sharp weapon was in reach... :mrgreen: 


But I never would think about using copy-protection. I think you can't really prevent that someone will upload your cd, so don't hit the honest user in the face with some stupid copyprotections.

I really hope the best for you, Kyle

F*** Piracy 

Greetings, Jan


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## Taisto (Nov 16, 2012)

Without commenting on anything else in this thread, I would like to share my recent experience with dongles.
While they can be convenient, they are also physical devices and are suspect to failing for no apparent reason.

I bought QL Spaces about a year ago and got an iLok with it because it was required.
After having it connected to my computer for a year it stopped working so I had to do the license recovery process which means paying 50 $ and sending the stick to PACE for license recovery. Now time was not a problem for me and the whole process itself took about three weeks but I wasn't impressed with the fact that it cost me about 60 $ (~10 $ for registered letter).

Every time this device breaks down it will cost me 60 $. Also when sending this thing to USA, it might get lost on the way and since the license is individual and only in one place (in the stick) there is no chance of getting it back in this case (except at the mercy of the developer of the particular software that the license belongs to).

I don't really feel like I own this software, well I'm licensed to use it so it's true that I don't own it but what I mean is that I don't feel I can trust to use it in the future.

So that's it. I understand the developer's pain but I also don't think there are any easy answers.

Edit: I forgot to mention the fact that once the license was recovered to my iLok account, I had to buy a new iLok so add ~50 $ to the total cost.


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## spectrum (Nov 16, 2012)

Maestro77 @ Thu Nov 15 said:


> Is it possible to encode an override that substitutes any pirated sample with The Brown Note? Perhaps a good involuntary pant soiling would teach them a lesson.


Best solution yet...we'll be implementing that in Trilian this week.

Thanks! =o


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## spectrum (Nov 16, 2012)

dannthr @ Thu Nov 15 said:


> Can I just say, maybe I'm weird, but I am not a sample developer (though I've fantasized about doing that) but I am a composer:
> 
> 
> I love dongles....
> ...


Live performers feel the opposite.

We have many live performer customers.


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## adg21 (Nov 16, 2012)

RE: NI libraries, don't Native Intsrument bare some responsibility for helping secure 3rd party libraries?


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## Windle (Nov 16, 2012)

Kyle, so sorry that people do this to you, your partner and your company.

I've bought many of your other libraries and enjoy them all.

I don't need another Taiko library right now but as a simple show of support I've just now purchased Taiko 2.

I hope you continue with your good work and can prosper despite the despicable thieves that are out there.

Best wishes,

W.


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 16, 2012)

RE: dongles

As a Logic user, for years and years it required an EXS key. I had 3 of them and not one evr failed nor id I ever lose one.

For about 8 years now I have had 2 iLok keys. They have not failed nor have I lost them.

For the last several years I have also needed Steinberg keys, originally for Broadway Big Band and then later for VE Pro. I have had 3 of them and 1 failed, and I have not lost any.

So I have no problem with them personally but I do think Spectrasonics does it the best way overall.


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## Ganvai (Nov 16, 2012)

Speaking about copy-protection for software, I'm very happy with Native Isntruments Service Center. Works well for me and a big plus is that it makes reselling possible and easy. I know a lot of people don't like NISC but I can't understand that. you get your updates, you can manage your licences, whats wrong with it (except that it is very slow sometimes  ).


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## Ian Dorsch (Nov 16, 2012)

Man, this whole thing is so depressing. :(


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## Darthmorphling (Nov 16, 2012)

I think that watermarking is the best solution honestly. 

I have put this library on my wishlist right after Omnisphere, and Christmas. You can at least take heart that you are gaining some customers from all of this.

Like Ed, I never bought into the argument that every download is a lost sale. At best it is only a few percent. That still sucks though and I wish you find a solution that works, but does not inconvenience honest customers.

Don


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## Gusfmm (Nov 16, 2012)

zircon_st @ Fri Nov 16 said:


> Native Instruments and Spectrasonics don't use dongles and they are enormously successful.



So you got be more clear when you say these developers are enormously successful, as to what kind of success you're talking about. These two companies, especifically, have had a very different approach in business scope and target audiences. So at risk of sounding oversimplifying, let me for the sake of brevity say: while one has created a name based of experience, reputation, and quality, the other seems to be happy developing dozens of low-priced products for the masses (quality comparisons unneccessary at this point). Different size companies, different ideals, different approaches, different audiences. Both have been pirated quite extensively. 

I just 'oogled "Omnisphere download" and got a gazillion pirate seeds and sites listed in response. I'm curious to hear from Spectrum whether that bothers him as a developer, or he is willing to compromize some on this issue, which seems to affect Spectrasonics the same way as anybody else.


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## Ed (Nov 16, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Thu Nov 15 said:


> I think the reason you haven't bought Tari's libs are far more about Engine being not a good player than copy protection. I'm only going on 2nd hand reports, but people seem to really like Mach Five 3.



Even so though I would still think twice about buying into another sampler even if it was close to or just as user friendly as Kontakt.

Kontakt is really the closest thing today to how easy it was back in the Giga days of just being able to migrate to another system and just connect your sample drive and it just worked immediately (because there was no CP). Today we have to install more and more plugins, the Service Centre enables us to easily register our Kontakt libs without having to reregister each time we reinstall our PCs (unlike before Service Centre). So lets say MachFive and Engine were suddenly just as great, well now I have 3 samplers to install! 

Omnisphere while not a sampler is only worth it because its great, I would think very hard about adding anything else like that to my system. Omnisphere is WAY too picky about how to install it and I brought this up at the Scorecast meetup, why on earth do we have to create shortcuts to the "data" folder, why cant you just install Omni and click a button where you can browse to your data folder. I just gave up doing that last time with Stylus and had to reinstall from scratch, and now I have user libs in two different places when I tried to add some libs from Total Rex. urgh. The more work I have to do installing more and more software the worse it is and the scarier it is if devs stop supporting them, like if they will go out of business. At that point we will literally be turning to the crackers and asking for them to help us to use our legitimate products. I remember back when Kontakt registration was such a pain, legit users would actually use keygens simply because of how much time was wasted doing it the proper way. And maybe it was a myth, but apparently at one point the cracked version of Cubase actually ran better because they stripped away all the CP that was making it slow and inefficient, and of course there was no reason to have a dongle that if lost meant you were effectively screwed if you were a legit user


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## woodsdenis (Nov 16, 2012)

Having bought and used several Nine Volt Audio libraries over the years, this really sucks. Kyle is a decent guy who produces really stellar and outstanding libraries.

On copy protection I have no issue with iLok, have used one for 10 years and no issues. I don't really agree with Andrew Aversa's assertion really. Most people have one machine they use, having multiple machines, and that being an issue, is not the norm I would think.

Price point mmm, if thats what it costs to keep developers in business I'll pay for it !!! Surely the conclusion to this is that devs will have to raise their prices to offset their losses.

I really see the Nine Volt Audio, Embertone,Wave Alchemy, Wavesfactory, Impactsoundworks, Orangetree etc as the backbone of this industry. Apart from keeping the big guys on their toes they produce knockout libraries at great prices, we need to keep them in business.


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## Andrew Aversa (Nov 16, 2012)

Gusfmm @ Fri Nov 16 said:


> zircon_st @ Fri Nov 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Native Instruments and Spectrasonics don't use dongles and they are enormously successful.
> ...



Native Instruments has many products in the $200+ range, hardly "low-priced". Komplete 8 and Ultimate are $500+. And despite the fact that both companies have different markets and approaches, and despite the fact that they are pirated, they are also extraordinarily successful.


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## guydoingmusic (Nov 16, 2012)

nikolas @ Thu Nov 15 said:


> guydoingmusic @ Thu Nov 15 said:
> 
> 
> > I know Waves did a campaign a few years ago, where they anonymously called up studios in certain areas and specifically asked if they had certain Waves plugins that loved on their vocal chain for example. Then if the studio responded with a "Yes! We have the whole bundle!" then they actually showed up to the studio on the day of the booking... and requested their proof of purchase and license. I know someone who was caught red handed and fined $10,000.
> ...


I agree that it's not the way you want to treat your paying customers or even should for that matter. I simply meant if there was a way to check prior to booking the session. Honestly, I don't know how in the world smaller operations would have the time to do something like that anyways. 

To the dev's: I know it would be impossible for you to follow every lead... but would you want us to email/report if we run across someone using a "cracked" version of your software?

/brad


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## Gusfmm (Nov 16, 2012)

zircon_st @ Fri Nov 16 said:


> Native Instruments has many products in the $200+ range, hardly "low-priced". Komplete 8 and Ultimate are $500+. And despite the fact that both companies have different markets and approaches, and despite the fact that they are pirated, they are also extraordinarily successful.




I'd adventure to say that somebody like Cinematic Strings seems to have had tremendous apparent success with his one and only library. And while Alex may be very happy with the amount of success he's having, he is probably certainly losing a good amount of financial success due to piracy. So I do believe you, (MOST) developers, are simply willing to compromise. But when on top of everything, your product is priced low, you'd unquestionably need to carefully prove the viability of doing what you do in achieving reasonable commercial (read: financial) success. And that's why we, paying users, carry the addtl' cost burden. Reason why in the end, when I'm willing to pay thousands of $$ in libraries, I really care very little about paying $30 an eLicenser.

And for the record, Komplete 8 ultimate, for instance, bundles 50 different products for list US$999, which somebody could translate into a US$20 per product, probably more $16 with a retailer discount. And fairly predictably now, they run annual sales of their flagship product, sampler, for around $120.


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## zvenx (Nov 16, 2012)

This story hurts even more because I consider Kyle a friend.......sigh...I am very sorry to hear this......and it is really is an uphill battle. In the country where I live I know many many musicians/music producers who don't buy their software.....and I really don't understand it.... how do you make your living from content creation and only make a living if ppl respect your copyrights whilst using the tools of software you have illegal downloaded..... And worse some of them buy Mercedes Benz, and BMW's and Ranger Rovers but wouldn't spend $300 to buy tools of their trade....

really really sad....
despite the limitation in this case, I still do think watermarking is one of the better solutions.
really sorry to hear kyle and sb.
rsp


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## gsilbers (Nov 16, 2012)

Ganvai @ Fri Nov 16 said:


> Speaking about copy-protection for software, I'm very happy with Native Isntruments Service Center. Works well for me and a big plus is that it makes reselling possible and easy. I know a lot of people don't like NISC but I can't understand that. you get your updates, you can manage your licences, whats wrong with it (except that it is very slow sometimes  ).



EVERYTHING that is protected by NI challenge/reponse has been cracked. its been like this for like 10 years now. 

ilok 1 and native instrument protection are the worst. 

the 2 above i think have like templates to crack the product they are protecting. 

so if you have a product that uses kontakt DO NOT use thier copy protection. 

ilok2 seems to be very good. as well as the syncroft. 

its just hurdles for the hackers. no serial is easy. with challenge and reponse its hacking it. then with customized challenge and rensponse and then dongles. 

big libraries its a lot of download time. thus, my previous post of uploading wrong samples on purpose to get these kids frustrated  o[]) 
it sure takes time and money to do , but imo, its the wild west of piracy you have to spend money, figure out strategies etc. since its global and someone from chile can upload and not get prosecuted. or herein the US whihc is not taken seriouly etc.


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 16, 2012)

How's this for a nuts idea.

Start a group / consortium of young tech-savvy composers. Give it a little funding - devs might want to contribute, and maybe donations from members here etc, to pay the workers for their time. Not much money, but some incentive.

Between them, they would ramp up the swamping of pirate sites to an industrial scale, using every trick in the book. Nothing actually illegal - it's nice to imagine some pirate recipient's computer being wrecked by a virus placed into a sample library, but legally and ethically not such a great idea perhaps. But stuff that's really, really annoying. Make it impossible to sift through the results, basically.

Not totally convinced myself, but is there a germ of an idea here that could work?


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## synthetic (Nov 16, 2012)

The RIAA has done something like that, uploading music that appears to be something that people are looking for but is just a huge anti-piracy ad. But I don't think that would work with torrenting. It's the Matrix, a billion personal computers that host these. 

Although it would be fun for someone to illegally download some huge library that turned out to be a thousand copies of Rick Astley.


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## dannthr (Nov 16, 2012)

zircon_st @ Thu Nov 15 said:


> I don't know how you guys can say you love dongles more than, say, C/R. You can take your plugins anywhere? Not really. If you went to someone else's studio they would obviously need to have the same plugin installed, and if they did, then they would have their own dongle and you'd be using their installation. If you're talking about one of your own computers, it's MORE inconvenient. I can have Kontakt installed on multiple machines simultaneously no problem. With a dongle, I need separate licenses, or I need to physically move the key. Not convenient.
> 
> If you lose the dongle then with many companies, you're out of luck. That can't happen with normal C/R protection.
> 
> Dongles are always less convenient for the end consumer and add a 'tax' of up to $50 which kills a large chunk of the market. I also don't buy the 'stability' argument. Native Instruments and Spectrasonics don't use dongles and they are enormously successful.



I don't know how you can suggest that purchasing a $100 library is more affordable than a plug-in plus a dongle when we both know you're talking about libraries that require the full retail version of Kontakt.

Moreover, if you have one iLok, you're solid for all iLok required purchases.

Double-moreover, if you're using ProTools, chances are you have an iLok.

If you are using Cubase, you have a Steinberg Key.

You can yap all day about Reaper or FL Studio extreme all you like, but at the end of the day, most people spend $500+ just to have the software/hardware archetecture to run libraries or plug-ins, regardless of price.



And to the Yahoo who exclaimed that loving dongles is akin to Stockholm Syndrome and that we are appreciating being treated like criminals--get with the program, man.

If you want to talk about how it "feels" to have an iLok, it does not feel like being a criminal, it feels like I actually own something. It's an item, that has been purchased and deposited into my carrying vessel, it's an item that can't be anywhere else, and no one else can have it.

Lose an iLok?

Complain, complain, complain.

You can lose your software installation to an HDD crash, and not every place is going to spot you the reinstall.

You can lose your car keys and call a locksmith.

Don't lose your iLok. Sheesh.


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## Andrew Aversa (Nov 16, 2012)

Come now Dan... no need for the jabs! 

Yes, Kontakt isn't cheap. But NI is the biggest music software company in the world. They have an enormous install base. No company using iLok is in the top 3, or even the top 5 as far as I know. If as many people had iLoks as they did Kontakt, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I admit it's a catch-22; not enough people have iLoks, so many devs don't want to use iLok technology. Not enough devs use iLok, so people don't have them. I sure don't want to be an early adopter, though.

I think you're handwaving some of the negatives of iLok away. Simply owning the physical thing means nothing. You still need to have the software installed on your computer. You can still lose the software itself and have as much of a problem as you would with challenge/response - except you can ALSO lose the dongle, or have it be damaged, chewed on by a cat (happened to me), etc. I have never heard of anyone having any problem re-authorizing a CR-based plugin except with tiny, shady developers. Any reputable company like NI or Spectrasonics is quite generous, and their success speaks to that approach.


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## dannthr (Nov 16, 2012)

Most plug-in installations are downloadable and a few hundred MB or less--it's a non-argument.

I had a student who was able to bring to class his entire East West Composers Collection on an external HDD--thanks to iLok.

If he had licensed Kontakt libraries, he would not have been able to bring them to class and authorize them on OUR installation of Kontakt.


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## Gusfmm (Nov 16, 2012)

Andrew- where did you get that info?

NI market data points to $35M/yr revenue. (Hoovers.com, top market intelligence firm)
> non-dongle

ProTools only represents around 14% of AVID's annual revenue, or close to $100m/yr. (Avid's annual report)
>dongle

Steinberg was acquired in 2005 by Yamaha for $28.5M. While this is a bit more difficult to estimate, I'd bet anything you want that their share of sales for Yamaha openly surpasses NI's. (Yamaha.com, press releases)
> dongle


But I certainly agree, NI must have the largest by far user base. Especially counting those who download it cracked for free.


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## spectrum (Nov 16, 2012)

Ed @ Fri Nov 16 said:


> Omnisphere while not a sampler is only worth it because its great, I would think very hard about adding anything else like that to my system. Omnisphere is WAY too picky about how to install it and I brought this up at the Scorecast meetup, why on earth do we have to create shortcuts to the "data" folder, why cant you just install Omni and click a button where you can browse to your data folder.


You can...this is how the latest installer works.

But having an option like that in the plug-in is a good idea too. We'll consider adding that option for people that consider making aliases difficult. For most people, that hasn't been much of an issue.

BTW, feel free to send us suggestions like this. There's no need to gripe in meetings or forums when you can simply ask us directly for a feature that would be helpful to you.

We implement user suggestions all the time. 



> I just gave up doing that last time with Stylus and had to reinstall from scratch, and now I have user libs in two different places when I tried to add some libs from Total Rex. urgh.


That's not a good idea. That's also the fault of the third party library for not providing an installer. The Sage Convertor finds the correct directory automatically.



> The more work I have to do installing more and more software the worse it is and the scarier it is if devs stop supporting them, like if they will go out of business.


This is true of every piece of software you own a license for.

Support good developers. 



> And maybe it was a myth, but apparently at one point the cracked version of Cubase actually ran better because they stripped away all the CP that was making it slow and inefficient...


That was indeed a myth.


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## Andrew Aversa (Nov 16, 2012)

Gusfmm @ Fri Nov 16 said:


> Andrew- where did you get that info?
> 
> NI market data points to $35M/yr revenue. (Hoovers.com, top market intelligence firm)
> > non-dongle
> ...



I have sources in retail that have informed me of the rankings. But that NI revenue # is very outdated.

http://www.insideview.com/directory/nat ... ments-gmbh

Even this is older, and based on their stated growth of ~60% per year, I would peg their revenue at $100m or even higher now. Avid is not exclusively music software so I'm not sure they are a good comparison. If Steinberg as a whole was acquired for <$30m that means their yearly revenue was easily lower than that (nobody buys a company for <1 year of revenue.)



> I had a student who was able to bring to class his entire East West Composers Collection on an external HDD--thanks to iLok.



Yes but you would still need to install CCC on the school computers, no? So what's the advantage? He could have just as easily installed Kontakt, with libraries on a separate HD, and authorized it with a single click. I don't see the advantage since the iLok is useless unless you have the plugin(s) installed somewhere, and if they are already installed, then the user likely has their own auth.


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## Gusfmm (Nov 16, 2012)

Hoover.com is one of the most reliable market data sources in the business. Thus my mention. The revenue they indicate is actually higher than that other source you linked BTW.

And the $100M revenue is exclusively associated with ProTools. AVID total annual sales are in the $667M.


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## spectrum (Nov 16, 2012)

Gusfmm @ Fri Nov 16 said:


> I'm curious to hear from Spectrum whether that bothers him as a developer,


Methinks you can probably guess the answer. 



> or he is willing to compromize some on this issue, which seems to affect Spectrasonics the same way as anybody else.


Piracy is a reality that affects every developer....been fighting it since the 80s. 

Copy protection made a huge difference for us. Night and Day difference in fact.

It's the difference between having weapons in the War or none at all.

Having CP that is easy for end users is key and helps enormously to encourage honest users to do the right thing. I think of it like "suitcase locks" 

Of course we don't always win every battle, but having these tools makes a huge difference being in control of how we deal with the problem.

There's much to say on the topic and unfortunately much that I'm not comfortable to speak publicly about....but this much I can say:

I am very grateful to Kyle for taking the time to so eloquently and reasonably bring the personal voice to what all of us developers go through when we are hit with piracy. It's very tough to deal with....you have to grow a very thick skin about it and put a lot of faith in the honest users.

As every developer knows....every sale really does count!

We been fortunate that there are enough honest users to make what we do worthwhile....but it is a huge challenge for everyone in the business....no matter how successful.

I am extremely grateful to each one of you that is doing it the right way.

THANKS! 8) :D 

And for those that are not using legit versions yet, we're looking forward to the day when you do it the right way. You'll feel so much better about yourself when you know that you are being a positive force in the lives of creative developers and respecting your fellow musicians.

Cheers,

spectrum


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## NYC Composer (Nov 16, 2012)

I support, almost unreservedly, the right of developers to protect their products. Their work is arduous and their efforts are too valuable to me to bother about small inconveniences such as iLok keys and the like. I'm for whatever it takes, and I continue to find the argument that some large percentage of thieves woudnt have bought the stolen product specious and irrelevant. Those who feel they at just being pragmatic about it- are you so casual about all issues of moral hazard and crime? Saying "it's just the way it is" can go a long way towards the acceptance of practically any evil or generally corrupt practice in a civilized society, and the OP has my complete sympathy and my unmitigated support. I'm going to redouble my efforts to make people more aware in my corner of the world by sending this thread as a link.

I'm the first to admit I wasn't perfect about this stuff early in my career. Part of the reason for that is that I viewed the companies I bought from as large and monolithic, and most were. Maybe if more people realized they weren't stealing from 'the man', it might make a tiny difference in sales. One can hope.


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## rgames (Nov 16, 2012)

re: Piracy - yes, it sucks. I'm surprised that anyone who makes money in the music biz would use pirated software - I can't see how it could possibly make business sense. It's a relatively small cost and, therefore, nowhere near worth the risk of getting hit with some type of fine or lawsuit.

re: Dongles - I think I prefer non-dongle solutions, mainly for portability. Think about it - if you run only a single location, it doesn't matter, right? Dongle or copy protection - who cares. But if you have to remove your dongle and put it into your laptop on an airplane/hotel/live gig/whatever where it can easily get broken off and/or lost then the CP approach seems much more attractive.

Transferring licenses is easy - e.g. the Waves approach. But most developers allow you at least a couple licenses, anyway, so you don't have to do any transfers.

rgames


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## dannthr (Nov 16, 2012)

zircon_st @ Fri Nov 16 said:


> > I had a student who was able to bring to class his entire East West Composers Collection on an external HDD--thanks to iLok.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but you would still need to install CCC on the school computers, no?



No.

Don't be obtuse, all we had to do was install PLAY and tick off the library interfaces he needed.

Easy--no need to install anything more than a few hundred MB--easily downloaded in a few minutes (though I already had the PLAY installer there).



> So what's the advantage? He could have just as easily installed Kontakt, with libraries on a separate HD, and authorized it with a single click.



Negative. You see our computers already have a PLAY library and Komplete installed on them. But Komplete is installed with OUR license, not the students.

You see, Native Instruments assumes that you do not move your licenses around to other computers, and it most certainly assumes that you would not be using your licenses on OTHER people's computers. This is the opposite of portability.



> I don't see the advantage since the iLok is useless unless you have the plugin(s) installed somewhere, and if they are already installed, then the user likely has their own auth.



Plug-in installers are SMALL and installers for most iLok based products are EASILY accessible/downloadable online.

Almost every Plug-In can be carried on a flash-stick and fit in your pocket. Any Plug-Ins which use libraries, can be carried with you on an external HDD. You don't have to move the library at all, it stays there.


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 16, 2012)

spectrum @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> > And maybe it was a myth, but apparently at one point the cracked version of Cubase actually ran better because they stripped away all the CP that was making it slow and inefficient...
> 
> 
> That was indeed a myth.



Hmm nyeeuuummmyaaaaah. It's sorta kinda true for me right now actually. Two first hand stories then:

1. I had Cubase back in the day of the Atari ST. Fully paid up customer. Does anyone remember the dongles back then? Huge things, and frequently made the program crash. In the end, as a legit user, I turned to a cracked copy so I could run it without the dongle. No portability issues, it stayed on the one machine at home, but it was more reliable. So not a CPU issue per se, but a stability issue because the hardware CP was poor.

2. This one is right up to date. In Cubase I'd been getting CPU spikes every few seconds on core 1, even on an empty project at rest. Didn't happen in other DAWs. After a tortuously long diagnostic process, I eventually traced it to all products that used the elicenser on my M Audio FTP soundcard when using the M audio driver. I contacted M Audio directly, and they confirmed the fault. Eventually, earlier this year, a new driver was put into Beta, and I signed up. It looked like they'd worked on it for sure, because the CPU spikes were now running at 100%! I confirmed and hurriedly reverted back to the previous version. After one or two revisions, despite my continued feedback to them, the problem remained. As of this weekend, the FTP is going into retirement, and RME will solve that problem permanently.

Note - I don't blame Steinberg for this, but I absolutely do blame Avid / M Audio. It raises the issue that for CP to work, it has to be very well supported not only by the companies providing the CP itself, but the companies who use it in software and hardware. Pace do have a horrible track record of support really, which I think is why there's so much animosity towards iLok.

Well, we've all batted a lot of ideas around. I still haven't seen a better one than devs migrating en masse to Mach Five, with a good free player. Many of us may grumble, but the vast majority would jump ship I'm sure if a) the products and player were good enough and b) the alternative was taken away. IMO NI have been abusing their position for many years by both their inaction and high fees to devs, and doing that on this scale will have consequences in the end, I firmly believe.


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## lee (Nov 17, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> I'm the first to admit I wasn't perfect about this stuff early in my career.



You´re not the only one who has a dark past regarding this. I once was blind, but now I see.

I remember many years ago, chatting with a known composer/arranger/orchestrator/sampler/programmer/etc on irc whose name I wont expose here, who actually (!) told me what pirated libs to get. I didnt feel too bad in the beginning, and once I´ve started doing it alot my heart felt unrepentant. I looked up to him, being successful and all.That´s the real problem.

It´s actually similar to the morally accepted trend of listening to copyrighted music on youtube today. It doesnt feel bad, does it? I mean, if it´s on youtube and not on rapidshare/torrents, it´s ok (?). I´m not saying I`m not doing this btw, which actually makes me a hypocrit. 

The solution to this IMHO, isnt primary a software/programming issue. It´s people who are honest and "clean" regarding piracy, who dont "preach" but discuss this issue whenever they meet composers etc who are using pirated software, and share their views with them.

This is what put a stop to my transgressions btw. The moral issues that were still haunting me, although I´d almost completely legitimised my actions, were put up to the surface by someone, and I started thinking clearly.


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## Daryl (Nov 17, 2012)

spectrum @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> > And maybe it was a myth, but apparently at one point the cracked version of Cubase actually ran better because they stripped away all the CP that was making it slow and inefficient...
> 
> 
> That was indeed a myth.


Unfortunately it isn't a myth. There was an early version of SX3 where the dongle calls were so extreme and often inappropriate, that the program ran appreciably slower. Steinberg never officially commented on this, even though there was plenty of evidence, but they fixed it in the updates.
 
Having said that, I don't find that the dongles slow me down on any software I use. The only problem that happens is occasionally iLok throws a tantrum, but the advantage of the dongle is that I can install my software on as many computers as I like, and don't have to buy multiple copies, when I can only use one at a time anyway. :wink: 

I have no problem with the Spectrasonics C/P either though.

D


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## woodsdenis (Nov 17, 2012)

Just to get back on topic and maybe get some clarity on this issue.

I have used iLok for 10 years no problems , I mean NO issues ever. You can get downtime protection in case your iLok goes down. There may be an economic issue for devs but it does work.

I have all the Spectrasonics stuff and there system is good too, always works with reinstalls etc. Possibly not so good if you were moving to different computers a lot. But is this really an issue for most people ?

Now Spectrasonics stuff and Protools are software. Is Kyle's problem in implementing either system the fact that he is selling samples/wav files. Are these types of files un-ilok able or challenge respond compliant.

Eric could probably answer but his reluctance to is obviously understandable.


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## Daryl (Nov 17, 2012)

woodsdenis @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> I have all the Spectrasonics stuff and there system is good too, always works with reinstalls etc. Possibly not so good if you were moving to different computers a lot. But is this really an issue for most people ?
> 
> Now Spectrasonics stuff and Protools are software. Is Kyle's problem in implementing either system the fact that he is selling samples/wav files. Are these types of files un-ilok able or challenge respond compliant.
> 
> Eric could probably answer but his reluctance to is obviously understandable.


Eric has already made the case that his software is often used in live performance, and that it is likely to be more convenient not to have a dongle.

As far as Kyle's problem, Kontakt doesn't use a dongle, so if one produces a Kontakt library, there is no possibility of using one.

D


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## wst3 (Nov 17, 2012)

I object, strongly, to the argument that lost sales should not include those stupid script-kiddies and other amateurs that 'would not have purchased it anyway. By that same logic I can go out and boost a 911 cause, well, cause I wasn't going to buy one.

UGH!

But other than that minor tangent I agree with much of what has been said here - starting with I am really sorry that you have to deal with this.

Theft is theft. Anyone who has ever had something stolen knows that empty, violated feeling - it sucks!

I also agree that we have been attacking the problem from the wrong end. Most copy protection schemes only deter the honest folks. And they add cost, complexity, and in some cases, bugs.

Ned is, I think, on the right track. We need to make it painful to the companies that are profiting from their support of the pirate mentality.

We also need to start educating the next generation about the value of creation and intellectual property. 

I know that the at least part of the current crop of youth believes that everything should be free. The worst case I ever encountered was a local high school band that not only stole the software that they used, they stole gear from the school, local clubs, even other bands.

They argued that they could not possibly play their music without this stuff, and therefore it was ok to steal stuff.

Think they'd play a free gig to benefit their school?

Think again.

Happy ending - that's when they got busted. Normally I'd feel really bad about kids getting criminal records, but this time I wasn't all that upset.

So pain for the profiting purveyors, and education for the thieves.

And Alex - you have some really cool libraries, I hope you can make peace with this.


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## ryanstrong (Nov 17, 2012)

wst3 @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> We also need to start educating the next generation about the value of creation and intellectual property.



This. For a long term and broader reaching effect it's better to be taught what's right, and learn the enjoyment and positive outcome of doing what's right then the hammering in on the wrong. For a man cannot know a line is crooked unless he knows of a straight line.

It takes work though to do what's right, it's not easy, and our society is lazy and likes the easy way out, but the outcome of putting in the hard work and doing what is right will always feel good. No one ever said "Wow, I regret that work out!".


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## Darthmorphling (Nov 17, 2012)

wst3 @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> I object, strongly, to the argument that lost sales should not include those stupid script-kiddies and other amateurs that 'would not have purchased it anyway. By that same logic I can go out and boost a 911 cause, well, cause I wasn't going to buy one.
> 
> UGH!
> 
> I also agree that we have been attacking the problem from the wrong end. Most copy protection schemes only deter the honest folks. And they add cost, complexity, and in some cases, bugs.



Why is it that if you believe that not everyone who downloaded would have bought the library means you believe that piracy is ok? Also, invasive copy protection does nothing to stop the problem.

The reality is that very few kids are going to buy the software they download. This is not an excuse to justify their actions. But all those antipiracy figures and the money lost are not reality.

Copy protection only inconveniences honest people, and even then it works for most. When it doesn't work, it is a total inconvenience for that "paying" customer. The pirate will never be inconvenienced.

Again, being anti invasive copy protection does not mean being pro piracy.


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## Daryl (Nov 17, 2012)

wst3 @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> We also need to start educating the next generation about the value of creation and intellectual property.


Whilst I agree with the sentiment, it is almost a lost cause. When parents and teachers don't really care, then there is no chance that their children will either.

To be fair I don't have an answer as to what the solution is. I know it's not fining some penniless family millions of £ they don't have, for illegally downloading. However, there is no doubt that it is not just poor families. The so-called middle classes are just as guilty. I think that smaller, but painful fines for first offences would be good. Community service would be another option. However, how you catch the people who are downloading is a more difficult one, because of privacy laws and rights.

I think that companies like Google, and the rest, who do the equivalent of advertising stolen goods should be brought to account. I think that the companies who advertise on websites which are only in operation for illegal downloading should be brought to account.

There are so many ways to tackle this growing problem and all of them need to be pursued. it is no good to focus entirely on one area, IMO.

D


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## woodsdenis (Nov 17, 2012)

Daryl @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> woodsdenis @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> 
> 
> > I have all the Spectrasonics stuff and there system is good too, always works with reinstalls etc. Possibly not so good if you were moving to different computers a lot. But is this really an issue for most people ?
> ...




BUT I purchased an EastWest Symphonic lib for Structure (Protools )years ago, the library required a separate iLok asset for the samples !!!! Did somehow EastWest encrypted the samples to ILok protection. Am I reading this right ? If so, this is an option for Kontakt libraries.


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## ryanstrong (Nov 17, 2012)

Daryl @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> wst3 @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> 
> 
> > We also need to start educating the next generation about the value of creation and intellectual property.
> ...



Education on values is a lost cause? Whoa.


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## Daryl (Nov 17, 2012)

woodsdenis @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> BUT I purchased an EastWest Symphonic lib for Structure (Protools )years ago, the library required a separate iLok asset for the samples !!!! Did somehow EastWest encrypted the samples to ILok protection. Am I reading this right ? If so, this is an option for Kontakt libraries.


Structure and Kontakt are not the same thing. For a start Structure is Pro Tools only, AFAIK. PLAY is also iLok. Still nothing to do with Kontakt.

D


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## Stiltzkin (Nov 17, 2012)

This thread is rather depressing, but I think a good approach is to go the way the video game market has gone with regard to anti-piracy;

The games will be released normally, then usually cracked very quickly too.

About a month or so later they will release patches with almost essential updates (or balance patches etc, just something that everyone has really be asking for) but then they will include new anti piracy stuff.

While this is crackable, it allows people to essentially try things and then buy them - I know some of my friends who download games often end up buying them so they can play online just because they enjoyed it before.

It's certainly not an ideal solution, but in my opinion it is a good idea, as you will create the ever so essential "advocate" customer from the beginning, and a satisfied consumer right from the moment of purchase (because they already KNOW they like it, not just trying). That will lead them to buy your products in the future and (usually) bring in even more people.


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## woodsdenis (Nov 17, 2012)

Daryl @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> woodsdenis @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> 
> 
> > BUT I purchased an EastWest Symphonic lib for Structure (Protools )years ago, the library required a separate iLok asset for the samples !!!! Did somehow EastWest encrypted the samples to ILok protection. Am I reading this right ? If so, this is an option for Kontakt libraries.
> ...



You are missing my point completely. 

I am obviously aware that Structure and Kontakt are not the same thing and Structure is PT only. What I am saying is that the Eastwest samples required a completely SEPARATE iLok asset. If this is correct, it is totally removed from Structure, Protools, Play or any other program whether protected or not isn't it?

If someone with iLok knowledge could confirm this, then there may be a way to iLok sample data outside of Kontakt,,Stylus or whatever host or DAW you may use..

At least then maybe it could be an option.


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## Darthmorphling (Nov 17, 2012)

Daryl @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> wst3 @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> 
> 
> > We also need to start educating the next generation about the value of creation and intellectual property.
> ...



So now it is a teacher's job to educate people on issues that should be taught in the home? This is the most absurd statement I have ever heard.

My god, the climate for educators in this country is bad enough, but to make us responsible for teaching morality is ridiculous.


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## germancomponist (Nov 17, 2012)

A little bit ot, but what I read here reminds me to a thought what I had some time ago: 

Thought about the good old days when there was only hardware aviable. Millions of people had jobs because the hardware had to be built, and there was nowhere a discussion about pirating.

But sure, I love it to use software and never wish me the old days back.


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## ryanstrong (Nov 17, 2012)

Darthmorphling @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> Daryl @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> 
> 
> > wst3 @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> ...



I think you are ascribing "morals" to be some sort of spiritual laws versus plain and simple good behavior. It is not good behavior to steal another child's toy while on the playground. In the same way, it is not right to steal another person's sample library.

I would think teachers should exhibit values and morals that children should look to as a role model in their life. Teachers should not be the cornerstone of which morals and values are taught, but they certainly should lead or teach by example.

Especially if we are talking about teachers of younger children who are at an age of developmental learning.


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## Ed (Nov 17, 2012)

wst3 @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> I object, strongly, to the argument that lost sales should not include those stupid script-kiddies and other amateurs that 'would not have purchased it anyway. By that same logic I can go out and boost a 911 cause, well, cause I wasn't going to buy one.



No thats not the same logic, because you lose real value if someone steals a physical item. 

Your logic is based on emotion here. It is a demonstrable fact that a download or view of software that wasn't paid for is not necessarily a "lost sale", it just isnt and to argue otherwise fails as soon as you give it the slightest scrutiny. That doesnt excuse the ethics of it, but if you want to work out your real loses you cannot use this logic.


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## Darthmorphling (Nov 17, 2012)

rystro @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> Darthmorphling @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Daryl @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> ...



I get what you are saying and I do agree with you to a point. I have kids in my classroom that have told me they watched a movie at home while it was still in the theaters. I let them know that it is illegal to do so. However, this is something that is taught at home as being OK. I have done my part, but kids are going to do what their parents do. That is the reality.

I also have kids whose parents told them it's OK to hit another student if the situation warrants it and that they would not get in trouble at home if they did so. Regardless of what the punishment is at home. I have kids whose parents make excuses after excuses for why their kid is unable to complete their work, or to change their behavior in class.

I have nine months to make a difference in a child's life, but their parents have been influencing them since birth.

Back to the topic. Piracy is not OK, but neither is treating paying customers like potential criminals.

As far as portability is concerned. If a product requires nothing more than a license key/file, then portability becomes quite simple. Yes it can be pirated, but at no point will a paying customer be inconvenienced because of hardware/internet protection methods.


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## nikolas (Nov 17, 2012)

hmmm..

I think that part of the problem is society and peers themselves. When I see grown ups today using a cracked copy of every software possible, and earning money from it, I feel like vomiting, to be honest!

But I do realise that it's very difficult for them to truly understand what's so wrong about piracy: For them it's just them and their couple of friends who share their cracked copies! Actually I do think that almost all, if not all, the members here MUST have a cracked software at some point in their lives! I mean I bought my first computer which came with some copied disks of MS DOS 3.1 for crying out loud! How was I supposed to understand what was wrong with that, in the age of 8-9?!?! :o


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## playz123 (Nov 17, 2012)

Darthmorphling @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> Piracy is not OK, but neither is treating paying customers like potential criminals.
> 
> As far as portability is concerned. If a product requires nothing more than a license key/file, then portability becomes quite simple. Yes it can be pirated, but at no point will a paying customer be inconvenienced because of hardware/internet protection methods.



Totally understand your other points, but can't agree that customers are being inconvenienced to any great degree or being treated like criminals simply because something like hardware protection is required. That sounds very much like an argument used by the people who steal software. In order to get one's car to start, most people have to carry around a key fob, but is that also deemed "inconvenient" by most? No, we just accept it and probably don't even think about it very much. Personally I've never felt like I was being treated like a criminal or found a dongle inconvenient.....but I also know that there are others who might agree with you.


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## Darthmorphling (Nov 17, 2012)

playz123 @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> Darthmorphling @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Piracy is not OK, but neither is treating paying customers like potential criminals.
> ...



The thing is that once I buy my car I no longer have to prove to Toyota that the car is mine. If I lose my key, I can go and purchase a new ignition quite easily without having to get approval from the manufacturer.

It shouldn't take weeks to get something liked that sorted out in regards to software

When you go to the store and they ask to see your receipt as you leave, they are verifying that you have paid for the goods in your possession(aka making sure you did not steal it). The fact is that once you have given your money, and they have provided you with the receipt, you no longer have to prove anything to anyone. If you do, you are giving up your rights. You can talk all you want about developers/corporations protecting their interests, but as a society we are allowing our basic freedoms to be stripped away on daily basis.

This quote is just plain wrong. "That sounds very much like an argument used by the people who steal software."

I will pose this question to you then. Which of the following would you buy if you had the choice between two identical pieces of hardware?

1. The one with no restrictions on how you used it.
2. The one that required you to plug in a device. The device would then contact a server and verifiy that you were the one allowed to use it.

I think everyone here would choose option 1. I understand that hardware can not be copied and distributed, but just because software is easy to replicate does not change the fact that you would still opt for number 1 if it applied to your software too.

I have been looking at Cubase for the last few months, but just do not like dongles. That is the sole reason I am not buying it. You may think that I am missing out on its feature, and I am, but I can do just about everything with Reaper and it does not require hardware to prove I own it. Now I may change my mind at some point when I start seeing the limitations that Reaper has in its Midi implementation, and if that happens I will have to reassess my beliefs.

I realize that copy protection is here to stay, and I believe that developers have the right to choose the option that works for them. For me, I will stick to the models that are the least invasive. 

I could just be bitter as I still can not watch my legally purchased BluRays on my HDTV that is perfectly capable of displaying them, because some idiots in charge do not want people pirating movies over component cables. I mean really? Is that how pirates copy blurays? Of course not.


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## Andrew Aversa (Nov 17, 2012)

> Negative. You see our computers already have a PLAY library and Komplete installed on them. But Komplete is installed with OUR license, not the students.
> 
> You see, Native Instruments assumes that you do not move your licenses around to other computers, and it most certainly assumes that you would not be using your licenses on OTHER people's computers. This is the opposite of portability.



Dan, sorry man, this makes no sense at all. Let's assume you were using Kontakt instead. Your student would bring his library on an HD, you would install Kontakt (takes next to no time at all, just like PLAY), and then one-click authorize it in Service Center. How is this not 'portable'? Since Service Center supports multiple installs on multiple computers it's no issue. There is literally no difference here between the portability and convenience of iLok and Kontakt in terms of bringing your libraries with you. Service Center seamlessly manages authorizations in a single click. If you hit your max # it just de-activates the oldest one - and since you can RE-activate it with a single click, it's absolutely no problem at all.

So how is iLok an advantage?


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## playz123 (Nov 17, 2012)

Darthmorphling @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> This quote is just plain wrong. "That sounds very much like an argument used by the people who steal software."
> 
> I will pose this question to you then. Which of the following would you buy if you had the choice between two identical pieces of hardware?
> 
> ...



I think we may be heading off on a tangent here; this thread is really all about piracy of a developer's property and not so much about individual rights and freedoms. With that in mind, I'll offer only a brief reply.

a) Perhaps you missed my point about the car thingy? It was not about the vehicle itself. Carrying around a key fob is no harder than carrying around a dongle (if required), and personally I don't see the fuss about it.

b) The "quote" does indeed reflect opinions expressed by 'pirates', so I stand by it. Nothing personal directed at you though.

c) I think you mean "the choice between two identical pieces of _software_"? In any case, if one required a dongle and one didn't then they wouldn't be "identical", but they could be similar.  In any case, because you don't seem to be comfortable with copy protection that infringes on rights etc., my choice is irrelevant to you since I don't care if one of my libraries is protected by a dongle or a software key. What's more important to me is the developer's right to protect his intellectual property and the software he/she has worked so hard to produce. What protects the developer, in a way also protects me from thieves...again the main thrust of this thread. I repeat, I don't feel my rights are being threatened (or anything else) by copy protection. I do care about the quality and reliability of the software though, but I do want to see developer's property protected as well. In my opinion, if that requires me, a buyer, to use a dongle, so be it.

An argument can be made for individual freedoms these days as well as one for the rights of society in general, but I suggest that's something that may be better served in a separate thread.  I do understand how you feel; I just don't agree with everything you say!  Cheers.


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## Darthmorphling (Nov 17, 2012)

playz123 @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> I think we may be heading off on a tangent here; this thread is really all about piracy of a developer's property and not so much about individual rights and freedoms. With that in mind, I'll offer only a brief reply.



I agree this has gone off topic so I will end the debate here as well.

I respect developers as well and really feel that watermarking of samples is the best solution. It wouldn't actually have helped in this situation as he pointed out, but it would definitely stop the casual copying of libraries for friends. Which is where I believe that actual sales are lost.

I have actually put Taiko 2 on my wishlist, and will be purchasing sometime next year, but I have Omnisphere, or Zebra2, to acquire first. I also need to acquire some talent as well, but that's a whole different topic as well.

Can anyone loan me their talent? :mrgreen:


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## Rednas (Nov 17, 2012)

Talent is overrated young Skywalker


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## NYC Composer (Nov 17, 2012)

Ed's been consistent in his statements for years. His view is that theft of intellectual property is not equivalent to to the theft of physical items, because the ease of downloading makes it impossible to tell what the sales figures would have been if illegal downloading didn't exist. Personally, I'm much less interested in that particular equation than trying to communicate to people who steal intellectual property that it is, indeedl , theft. If a person believes that it is and still does it, then they condone theft and shoud not mind nor contact the police when someone uses their music without paying, takes the results of their programming at their job and claims it for themselves, or practices identity theft. It's just ones and zeros, after all. If there's human cost at the end, well (shrug). 

Actually, if one recognizes it as theft and still does it, they should have no particular problem with their house being robbed. It's sort of a communal outlook-all things, be they digital or physical, should belong to all! The fact that one person possesses a thing at any particular time is merely a temporal matter. 

I'm sure my logic is flawed, being that I'm emotional and all :wink:


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## Peter Alexander (Nov 17, 2012)

RE: Theft

13,000 + downloads x USD $129 = loss in sales of $1.7 MILLION. That's theft.


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## jleckie (Nov 17, 2012)

My opinion: 1 + download x USD $129 = loss in sales of $129. 

That's theft too.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 17, 2012)

Person A-"Beating your wife is wrong."

Person B-"Yes, but everyone does it and it can't be stopped."

Person A-"Well, okay then."


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## Daryl (Nov 17, 2012)

Darthmorphling @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> Daryl @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> 
> 
> > wst3 @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> ...


If you've never heard anything more absurd, then you live a sheltered life. :lol: 

Of course it's a teacher's job to teach everything that they can. If you had ever worked in a school in a deprived area you would know that. Some parents have trouble even feeding their kids, so a teacher should be prepared to teach all that a parent should teach, and more. I also don't think it's helpful when teachers just tell the students to download without paying anything, and also do it themselves. Education is exactly that. It is not just about school subjects and passing exams, it's about preparing students for life, and any teacher who doesn't see that is in the wrong profession.

D


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## dannthr (Nov 17, 2012)

zircon_st @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> > Negative. You see our computers already have a PLAY library and Komplete installed on them. But Komplete is installed with OUR license, not the students.
> >
> > You see, Native Instruments assumes that you do not move your licenses around to other computers, and it most certainly assumes that you would not be using your licenses on OTHER people's computers. This is the opposite of portability.
> 
> ...



Kontakt does not support multiple installations of Kontakt.


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## Andrew Aversa (Nov 17, 2012)

Yes, it does. I've installed the same copy of Kontakt on quite a few machines of mine over the years. Kontakt along with all other NI products supports two SIMULTANEOUS installs. So you can have it on your main DAW and a slave simultaneously with no problems. If you install it on a third computer it will just quietly de-authorize the oldest installation. You can easily re-authorize whatever computer you need to in service center. This is superior to iLok which would require extra money for an additional simultaneous install.


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## dannthr (Nov 17, 2012)

Kontakt does not support multiple installations of Kontakt on the same machine.

Installing someone else's NI licensed software on a computer that already has an active Service Center account is a mess.

Kontakt does not like sharing libraries with other versions of Kontakt.


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## nikolas (Nov 17, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> Person A-"Beating your wife is wrong."
> 
> Person B-"Yes, but everyone does it and it can't be stopped."
> 
> Person A-"Well, okay then."


Actually... There's an island here in Greece (can't remember the name right now) where this is pretty much what's going on.

They beat their kids and yell at them and it's considered the norm! :( (Really...). When I tried to confront (sideways) one instance of this (was in the ship and this was what was happening) the navy officer told me to look the other way and this is the only way the 'damn kids' learn in this island! :o I'm pretty sure that going to the police in the island and the surrounding areas would result to nothing as well! :(


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## Ed (Nov 17, 2012)

Peter Alexander @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> RE: Theft
> 
> 13,000 + downloads x USD $129 = loss in sales of $1.7 MILLION. That's theft.



The difference is, while on one level yes its theft, if you actually want to work out your loses as a business you cannot use every view on YouTube or torrent download to include in a *real *loss equation. Im sure everyone here has listened to a piece of music uploaded on YT that wasnt paid for and you know you would never have paid for it. It is bad business logic to act like it is a lost sale anyway, it just is. I remember Matt Bowdler saying how much more his downloads increased when he made his library available for for free, the increase in downloads didndt mean that they would have all paid for it. Its the same logic. You need to leave your emotion out it it just is not the same as stealing a car. ie. If every single download = stealing a car then every download or view = real world loss in the same way and it just doesnt work that way and frankly you are bad at business if you think it is.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 17, 2012)

Ed @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> Peter Alexander @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Theft
> ...



On which level is pirating software NOT theft?


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## Arbee (Nov 17, 2012)

The book industry is going through an interesting time.

Question: If I finish reading a (printed copy) book and then lend it to my friend, is that IP theft?

I'm just not sure we can liken sample software libraries to music/movie downloads(or to digital books, or to physical things like cars). These libraries are tools, not finished consumer product, and developers build these tools for a limited market and in my mind every illegal download is among the most clear cut cases of theft.

Perhaps sadly, most people of my childrens' generation will argue "I only download illegally to see what I'd like to buy, and then I buy those things I value". I think it started as "the Internet provides free information" and led to "anything I can source from the Internet should therefore be free". Add to that "digital product isn't real or of real value" and those who steal it continue to rationalise their behaviour.

Enough rambling, since I also agree this is highly unlikely to ever be resolved while human beings are who they are......


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 17, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> Ed @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Peter Alexander @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> ...



Aw, c'mon - Ed did say the context. It's theft, but doesn't necessarily equate to a real business loss - so he doesn't infer that on an another level it isn't theft.

In general (not specifically to Larry) - in the light of the OP and the distress caused, I'd personally like this thread to focus a whole lot more on practical possible solutions rather than arguing many of these same points again and again - it's perhaps easier to shake our heads sadly or come up with reasons to do nothing than it is to attempt to problem-solve. The education debate is interesting but largely falls out of our remit as a small community if the problem is a very wide cultural one. Since on p1 Ned advocated a group response, I've been wanting to discuss that further as I'm interested by it but unconvinced it would work in practice.

Here have been some of the options suggested, but few have been discussed in any depth.

*1. A group response - form a large ad hoc team that would contact every website and get them to take down all specific torrents related to our business.

2. Developers switch en masse away from Kontakt to a more secure system a la Engine or Mach Five

3. An alternate group response - form a small skilled and possibly paid team to flood the net with fake downloads and spread disinformation

4. Get directly involved in public education*

Did I miss any? Any other ones? Any further thoughts on any of those?

I wonder if this should be a new thread, but this is a pretty active one and imo it seems quite appropriate to be responding the OP with a debate on possible solutions.

FWIW, I think 2 or 3 are by far the most plausible candidates.


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## Peter Alexander (Nov 17, 2012)

Ed @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> Peter Alexander @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Theft
> ...



The POINT Ed is that Kyle has suffered a significant loss of income. Whether it's that figure or less, he and his partner have taken a significant hit. They've invested all this money in a crackerjack library. That's the point he's trying to make along with there's little point in investing in developing libraries if the piracy rate is 13:1. 

Until Kontakt gets a WIBU key or something similar, Native Instruments is an investment risk for any developer. And developers may need to go the Spitfire route with bespoke-like subscription libraries that cost more but give composers more exclusivity if they want to stay with NI.

I appreciate how many like Kontakt, but we make our living with new tools that require computers. If you want the new tools, some may need to adjust.


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## Peter Alexander (Nov 17, 2012)

Arbee @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> The book industry is going through an interesting time.
> 
> Question: If I finish reading a (printed copy) book and then lend it to my friend, is that IP theft?
> 
> ...



It started a LONG time ago with sample swap parties in L.A. - with adults - not teens.


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 17, 2012)

Urgh, please can we move this on from the value debate? Ed isn't arguing that there is no loss of income, mearly that putting a value on that loss is complex. Whether or not you take that view, nobody here as far as I can see has argued that there is no serious monetary loss incurred by a developer due to piracy, and unless someone does, this is moot point.

It's getting really frustrating seeing such a circular debate. There are at least 4 solutions to discuss... can't we discuss them?


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## Peter Alexander (Nov 17, 2012)

> It's theft, but doesn't necessarily equate to a real business loss - so he doesn't infer that on an another level it isn't theft.



Amazing! So any music you created that got downloaded for FREE that you earned NO income on isn't a real business loss, right? 

I read this nonsense all the time and it's just the intellectual gray lining of morality. That's a poverty mentality if ever there was one! Keep craftspeople poor. It's not REALLY a theft.

Have mercy!


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 17, 2012)

Peter, you can try to make people say what they aren't saying all year if you like. It isn't helping this discussion, the pain of the developers and their families, or this industry. Care to move the conversation on, please?


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## guydoingmusic (Nov 17, 2012)

Imma let you finish...


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## NYC Composer (Nov 17, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun Nov 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> ...



Guy, to me-everything that follows is rendered unnecessary due to the 'but'. I tried to make my case with the "person A, person B" post, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. 

I do agree that doing something is better than accepting this stuff as a given, but I also think it might be better done in its own thread.


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## Darthmorphling (Nov 17, 2012)

Daryl @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> Of course it's a teacher's job to teach everything that they can. If you had ever worked in a school in a deprived area you would know that. Some parents have trouble even feeding their kids, so a teacher should be prepared to teach all that a parent should teach, and more. I also don't think it's helpful when teachers just tell the students to download without paying anything, and also do it themselves. Education is exactly that. It is not just about school subjects and passing exams, it's about preparing students for life, and any teacher who doesn't see that is in the wrong profession.



This will be the last OT post for me, but these statements outline what is wrong with our society. I went into teaching to create independent thinkers. I try to give kids the tools they need to overcome any obstacles they may encounter in their lives. When a kid has difficulty relating to their peers, I give advice on how to handle it. When they need someone to talk to I am there for them. I do everything in my power to make sure my students get the best education possible. The keyword being "education".

However, when people expect others to parent for them, our society declines. My job is not to teach your kids morals. That is a job for the parents. I am not a religious person so my use of the word "morals" simply means how a person reacts to life experiences. So much of a child's personality, and character, is determined by their parents. If you can not be the parent to your own kid, then please do not have them. Anyone who thinks that teachers should raise other people's kids should definitely not have kids of their own. :wink: 

Also, in 16 years of teaching I have never heard a teacher tell their students it is OK to steal software, or movies. I have had several students tell me that their parents download movies though. I tell them it is wrong, but it is hard to explain to a kid that what their parents are doing is wrong. 

Just in case anyone isn't clear, I am against piracy. My purchased music software consists of Reaper, Kontakt, and Albion. I use lots of freeware instruments and synths. Even though I agree with Ed regarding not all downloads being lost sales, they are *all* theft. 

I do believe that developers should do what they can to protect their products, but they need to balance that out with what paying customers are willing to tolerate in regards to copy protection.


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## Arbee (Nov 17, 2012)

Would we be happy with an annual re-registration process (with a built in kill switch in the software that de-activates the software if registration is not current), or even perhaps a subscription model instead of up front purchase?


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 18, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> I do agree that doing something is better than accepting this stuff as a given, but I also think it might be better done in its own thread.



Fair dos - new thread here - http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3661707 - for discussion of practical help to the 9VA guys and other developers.


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## Lex (Nov 18, 2012)

Peter Alexander @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> > It's theft, but doesn't necessarily equate to a real business loss - so he doesn't infer that on an another level it isn't theft.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



......and yet people on this board (the very same that are such moral knights in this thread) are posting music links from youtube all the time, every time they need to reference something?

alex


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## Lex (Nov 18, 2012)

Quite a few times in this thread people describe occurrences where their paths crossed with people/studios who openly use pirate software. 

Was just wondering, after finding out , did you report them to the police or at least to the developer of the software?

alex


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## NYC Composer (Nov 18, 2012)

Lex @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> Quite a few times in this thread people describe occurrences where their paths crossed with people/studios who openly use pirate software.
> 
> Was just wondering, after finding out , did you report them to the police or at least to the developer of the software?
> 
> alex



No one is trying to be a "moral knight". Instead, and I'll just speak for myself, we just heard a messed up story by a developer whose work was stolen. It didn't disturb you? It did me.

Nope, I don't call the cops on my co- workers , interns I know, clients, children of friends or friends, etc etc. Instead, what I do is raise my voice, try to give them a different perspective, and generally make myself tiresome on the subject, as you've already commented on.


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## Daryl (Nov 18, 2012)

Darthmorphling @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> However, when people expect others to parent for them, our society declines. My job is not to teach your kids morals. That is a job for the parents. I am not a religious person so my use of the word "morals" simply means how a person reacts to life experiences. So much of a child's personality, and character, is determined by their parents. If you can not be the parent to your own kid, then please do not have them. Anyone who thinks that teachers should raise other people's kids should definitely not have kids of their own. :wink:


You see the world as you want it to be. I see it as it is. Of course you shouldn't have to teach morals to kids. I agree that this is the job of the parents. However, when so many parents are obviously not doing a very good job, it seems clear to me that educating should include, er, educating. Just saying that these parents shouldn't have kids is a cop out. They are going to have kids. Nothing will stop that, but somewhere along the line the vicious circle of lack of morals has to be tackled, and by washing your hands of it, you are not helping. Maybe it's not a problem in your school. It was certainly a huge problem in schools where I've taught.
 
Anyway, we will probably have to agree to disagree on this one.

D


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## chimuelo (Nov 18, 2012)

I believe there are laws for this intellectual property theft, it's sad that we have so many laws that can't be enforced.
Personally I have no idea what a torrent is, and I don't want to know. 

It's like craps. I had a friend who would come and visit from time to time until he lost his busines, wife and family as he studied the game of craps. This was years ago when I was new to the town and scared to death about the temptations and freedoms that were avialbale, not to mention the free alchohol.

But I saw him lose everything once, 18k in 10 minutes, and never hung with him again as he wanted me to "learn" Craps.
To this day I still don't know the rules, or how to play and I am there around 300 nights a year.

Hope you get some satifasction somehow through law, or security, as dedicated people should not run the risk of not being paid for thier work.


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## Lex (Nov 18, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> Lex @ Sun Nov 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Quite a few times in this thread people describe occurrences where their paths crossed with people/studios who openly use pirate software.
> ...



Well then it seams that it is perceived as gray area, although it should not be, cause if you saw someone stealing your car would you call the cops or try to give them a different perspective?

alex


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## NYC Composer (Nov 18, 2012)

Lex @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun Nov 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Lex @ Sun Nov 18 said:
> ...



I don't think theres anything gray about it, but you make a fair point. I'll have to think on it. I know I woudnt call the cops if someone stole $200 from me, but if they pirated and distributed months of my work and cost me thousands of dollars, I'm pretty sure I would. If only there were "cops" to call in that case.

Are you undisturbed by the illegal downloading of software or intellectual property yourself?


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## toomanynotes (Nov 18, 2012)

By the sounds of this thread, it appears NO ONE gets prosecuted for using an unpaid library in their professional work. not ONE case study. very strange...

It's no wonder ppl thieve samples. It's not fair on the paying customer.

I know one guy who downloads em...and if he decides to use them professionally...he ends up paying for the license but uses the same pirate samples..cos he can't be bothered to download again...unless there's an update. He's philospohy is as long as you got receipt it doesn't matter when you produce the music. It's like a use now pay later cheek. :evil:


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## Lex (Nov 18, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> Lex @ Sun Nov 18 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Sun Nov 18 said:
> ...



I guess I am undisturbed because it is nothing new or even surprising, plus how I feel doesn't make any difference. I buy all my software, cause they r my tools with which I make income, simple as that.

I don't know if you can call the cops, but you can sure as hell write directly to a developer if you want to report a studio or a place of business that uses pirated software.

The way I see it..

1- If you don't report every witnessed use of pirated software to the developer or the law - you are actively contributing to the idea that software piracy is a gray area 

2- If you are linking youtube material that is violating the copyright - you are actively contributing to the idea that sharing of intellectual property is a gray area 

alex


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## Darthmorphling (Nov 18, 2012)

Daryl @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> You see the world as you want it to be. I see it as it is. Of course you shouldn't have to teach morals to kids. I agree that this is the job of the parents. However, when so many parents are obviously not doing a very good job, it seems clear to me that educating should include, er, educating. Just saying that these parents shouldn't have kids is a cop out. They are going to have kids. Nothing will stop that, but somewhere along the line the vicious circle of lack of morals has to be tackled, and by washing your hands of it, you are not helping. Maybe it's not a problem in your school. It was certainly a huge problem in schools where I've taught.
> 
> Anyway, we will probably have to agree to disagree on this one.
> 
> D



I actually do agree with you, and I do see the world for what it is. My beliefs do not stop me from trying to make my students better people. I do everything you have outlined. I just resent the parents who do not do their job and how we as a society allow it to continue. I never blame the kids for what there parents do, even though I do hold my students accountable for what they are required to do.

Maybe we can agree to mostly agree o-[][]-o


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## Ed (Nov 18, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> Ed @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Peter Alexander @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> ...



In the way I JUST described in the rest of my post you snipped. Your knee jerk emotional response is noted though.


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## Ed (Nov 18, 2012)

Peter Alexander @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> The POINT Ed is that Kyle has suffered a significant loss of income. Whether it's that figure or less, he and his partner have taken a significant hit. They've invested all this money in a crackerjack library. That's the point he's trying to make along with there's little point in investing in developing libraries if the piracy rate is 13:1.



I understand his frustration and I agree with most things you said apart from the idea that the rate of piracy necessarily equates to *real *loss. 

If you remove emotion from this and think purely from a business standpoint what statistics do you have, or what evidence can you find, that can provide some kind of reliable real-world loss estimation. Im not suggesting there are no losses or that there is no evidence, but if your evidence of your loss is purely down to how many downloads, views or listens you can find of your product then you're simply wrong and your numbers are more or less meaningless. For example, the music industry would have shown a significant real loss of business when Napster became a thing. Their sales would have demonstrably slumped. Now, that is real evidence. What is not evidence is saying every download of a song on Napster is from someone that would have bought it had Napster not been around. Now you can call it "theft" and tell me how "wrong" it is till the cows come home but all that is irrelevant to the question here. What does the data actually tell us? Software developers in general need to figure this out because otherwise they will gather a very unrealistic view of their business and can lead to bad decisions based off that. To put it more harshly, unless people learn to figure this out they will be living in fantasy land.


----------



## Ed (Nov 18, 2012)

Peter Alexander @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> It's not REALLY a theft.



If you read what I wrote in context you'd have understood me. I never implied that it wasnt theft, In fact I actually said it was, but it is a fact that theft of a physical resource/a hardware product is different. If someone never intended to buy a TV they stole from a store, that doesnt mean that store owner still isnt down X amount from what the TV itself cost to produce. The store owner doest make 100% profit from the price of the TV. Software has far less costs associated with it once the software has been developed, since you're distributing digital copies. That is why it is different, that is the other level I referred to.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Nov 18, 2012)

You guys are still rehashing the same arguments from 10-15 years ago?


----------



## HDJK (Nov 18, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> ...
> Here have been some of the options suggested, but few have been discussed in any depth.
> 
> *1. A group response - form a large ad hoc team that would contact every website and get them to take down all specific torrents related to our business.
> ...



Actually ne one ever answered this question:



bobulusbillman @ Thu Nov 15 said:


> What if Kontakt 6 had the frameworks in place so that if a developer chose to use an iLok as copy protection then they could?



Would this be possible? AFAIK iLok has been a real turn-off for crackers, so this might help a bit.

Anyway, one good thing out of this sad thread is, I've never given 9VA any attention (because frankly there are so many sample devs, it's hard to keep up). But now I took a listen to Taiko2, and I'm definitely going to get it later this year :D


----------



## NYC Composer (Nov 18, 2012)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> You guys are still rehashing the same arguments from 10-15 years ago?



There's a statute of limitations. After 10 years they become fresh new arguments.


----------



## NYC Composer (Nov 18, 2012)

Ed @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> ...



Yes- there was certainly no emotion in the OP's post there, Spock.


----------



## spectrum (Nov 18, 2012)

woodsdenis @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> I have all the Spectrasonics stuff and there system is good too, always works with reinstalls etc. Possibly not so good if you were moving to different computers a lot. But is this really an issue for most people ?


It's not an issue if you have Spectrasonics stuff at all. Our system doesn't have a fixed number of installs.



> Now Spectrasonics stuff and Protools are software. Is Kyle's problem in implementing either system the fact that he is selling samples/wav files. Are these types of files un-ilok able or challenge respond compliant.


Sure....un-copyprotected products are really tough to sell.


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## spectrum (Nov 18, 2012)

rystro @ Sat Nov 17 said:


> Daryl @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> 
> 
> > wst3 @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> ...


Here's why its not:

Because every sale counts. Every changed mind makes a difference in the world.

As noted in this thread, minds can change. I know this is true among young people too. My kids and their friends are having this discussion all the time.

Teachers can get involved for sure! Let's make a difference....NEVER give up!


----------



## germancomponist (Nov 18, 2012)

spectrum @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> Here's why its not:
> 
> Because every sale counts. Every changed mind makes a difference in the world.
> 
> ...



+1 Especially for "minds can change".


----------



## NYC Composer (Nov 18, 2012)

spectrum @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> rystro @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Daryl @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> ...



That's my point of view. It seems so self-evident-why simply give up? Hearts and minds can change, people of conscience can gently educate in a non-preachy way, why not try?
The other way indicates a hopelessness and a cynical acceptance of things that shouldn't be the way they are.


----------



## Ed (Nov 18, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> Ed @ Sun Nov 18 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> ...



Um what has the OP got to do with this? You asked me a question I had already answered because you read half a sentence and ignored the rest of the paragraph, thats why you had to snip it all away. Presumably you did this because of your knee jerk emotional response to a phrase you read that hit a nerve and caused to you to argue against something i wasnt saying. If the only reaction to my point is to beat up a strawman it says a lot.


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## Darthmorphling (Nov 18, 2012)

spectrum @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> rystro @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> 
> 
> > As noted in this thread, minds can change. I know this is true among young people too. My kids and their friends are having this discussion all the time.
> ...



As noted in my previous posts I do point out how it is wrong to download movies when my students tell me their parents do so. What makes teaching values a delicate situation is when your values are different from the parents. When I taught 4th grade, we talked about how animals change over time when they adapt to their environments. I had a parent tell their daughter that what I was teaching in science was wrong and that she should remember that evolution is false and the Earth is only 6,000 years old.

How do you compete with that? Now, this girl may eventually grow up and realize that her parents were wrong, but the reality is she probably will not. Does that mean I will stop teaching adaptation? Of course not. I have found, though, that minds are easier to change when there is not already a strong bias in a certain thinking.

Unfortunately, the state of education is so focused on test scores now, that teaching anything other than the academic standards has fallen by the wayside. I have to spend so much time keeping the kids in line that classroom management seems to be taking up more and more time. When you have parents who ask to excuse their kids from homework because they went to the mall, values are going to be difficult to teach.

I will still point out that it is wrong if the issue comes up.

@Spectrum If you want to send me a complimentary license of Omnisphere I will do a week long lesson on the effects of piracy :mrgreen: Just kidding!


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## NYC Composer (Nov 18, 2012)

Ed @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun Nov 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed @ Sun Nov 18 said:
> ...



i'm sure you're right. Have the last word.


----------



## Ed (Nov 18, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> i'm sure you're right. Have the last word.



Ok. I will. It always ends like this with you doesnt? You take me out of context or spend some time beating up a strawman and then when its pointed out you throw up your hands and act as if Im the unreasonable one. It would do you good just to admit you jumped to conclusions, but apparently you just cant do that.


----------



## NYC Composer (Nov 18, 2012)

spectrum @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> woodsdenis @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> 
> 
> > I have all the Spectrasonics stuff and there system is good too, always works with reinstalls etc. Possibly not so good if you were moving to different computers a lot. But is this really an issue for most people ?
> ...



Eric, obviously you went a different way with your own player-and I remember it took you a good while to do so. Not to talk other developers or companies down, but is it your thought that Kontakt and unprotected players in general are the main problem for developers?


----------



## ryanstrong (Nov 18, 2012)

Darthmorphling @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> spectrum @ Sun Nov 18 said:
> 
> 
> > rystro @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> ...



And this response is why I don't think you understand where we/I am coming from in terms of "morals". You are using, as an example, the teaching of adaptation which has no direct parallels to behavior, but rather a hot social topic. We are not talking about something that I believe has become debatable in schools, and that is obedience, and good behavior.

A child's parents may take issue with adaptation, but certainly no parent can argue that stealing is wrong, or that jealously builds good character.


----------



## Darthmorphling (Nov 18, 2012)

rystro @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> And this response is why I don't think you understand where we/I am coming from in terms of "morals". You are using, as an example, the teaching of adaptation which has no direct parallels to behavior, but rather a hot social topic. We are not talking about something that I believe has become debatable in schools, and that is obedience, and good behavior.
> 
> A child's parents may take issue with adaptation, but certainly no parent can argue that stealing is wrong, or that jealously builds good character.



I understand completely how people are using the term morals. What you may not be seeing is that every decision a person makes in life is based on their beliefs. Beliefs/morals are based on a person's values. People may not want to believe this, but a child's values are cemented to a tremendous degree before they even get into school. What a parent does is going to mold how a child views their world. Can children be taught new things? Of course they can. Quite easily in fact. Can a child be taught to go against their parents core beliefs? Not so easy it turns out, but it is possible.

Certainly a parent is not going to be able to argue that downloading movies is ok. That does not mean they will not do it. They truly believe that it is ok despite the illegality of it. I am certain you probably speed, I do sometimes. I can not justify it being right, but it still happens. I have a 17 year old in our court who constantly tears around the corner. The parents do not care so he believes it is ok. 

These are all values/morals/beliefs. Whatever synonym you use to describe it, the meaning is the same.


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## ryanstrong (Nov 18, 2012)

Darthmorphling @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> rystro @ Sun Nov 18 said:
> 
> 
> > And this response is why I don't think you understand where we/I am coming from in terms of "morals". You are using, as an example, the teaching of adaptation which has no direct parallels to behavior, but rather a hot social topic. We are not talking about something that I believe has become debatable in schools, and that is obedience, and good behavior.
> ...



I completely understand and agree that children's lives are fundamentally influenced by their parents, no doubt. However they are also influenced by an individual they spend 5 days a week, 7 hours a day with as well.


----------



## spectrum (Nov 18, 2012)

Darthmorphling @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> spectrum @ Sun Nov 18 said:
> 
> 
> > rystro @ Sat Nov 17 said:
> ...


Ha! I refer to my comments earlier in the thread when I said "Every sale counts" :lol:


----------



## spectrum (Nov 19, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> Eric, obviously you went a different way with your own player-and I remember it took you a good while to do so. Not to talk other developers or companies down, but is it your thought that Kontakt and unprotected players in general are the main problem for developers?


Here's what I've learned is absolutely true since the beginning:

*The easier it is to get something for free, the harder it is to sell.*

When I was one of the first people to ever try selling a library of custom sounds in the early 1980s (Analog synth Data Cassettes!), I had a thriving little business of selling patches going for a while because it wasn't possible to copy the cassettes...they needed to be created from 1st generation machines with a sort of special procedure to ensure that they would work on everyone's machines. I'd sell a library of 32 original patches for $100...and you had to get it from me. 

The moment the floppy disc came out and MIDI Sys-Ex dumps happened, the entire business of selling synth patches just vanished. Suddenly, my patches were everywhere and tons of people were using them professionally who didn't buy them.

Same thing happened with CD-ROMs: When I had one of the first single-speed CD burners (cost us $28,000 and blank CDs were $300 each!)....it was nearly impossible to copy discs. CD-ROM Business was good, but then things changed quickly when the price of CD burners and blank media dropped so low.

The Internet introduces new challenges....but you always have to adapt and try new things. 

I've found that it's essential to always balance providing the best possible customer experience/convenience with having some protection for your products.


----------



## NYC Composer (Nov 19, 2012)

spectrum @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> I've found that it's essential to always balance providing the best possible customer experience/convenience with having some protection for your products.



...and it would seem that those who develop libraries for Kontakt have none, yet it's the most popular format at present. 'tis a puzzlement.


----------



## NYC Composer (Nov 19, 2012)

spectrum @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> I've found that it's essential to always balance providing the best possible customer experience/convenience with having some protection for your products.



...and it would seem that those who develop libraries for Kontakt have none, yet it's the most popular format at present. 'tis a puzzlement.


----------



## Steve Steele (Nov 23, 2012)

MacQ @ Thu Nov 15 said:


> One option is to ditch Kontakt/KSP entirely and develop in Machfive 3 (with LUA scripting). Then you can get iLok protection for your soundware AND a freely available player (UVI Workstation 2). I think this is the only reasonable way to try avoiding lost sales, and it's certainly the path I'm considering for my (eventual) commercial offerings.



Hey man, I would be ALL for that.


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## Sid Francis (Nov 24, 2012)

Hey Kyle...

I feel with you and can imagine how frustrating this situation probably is. Because this thread got my attention I had a close look at the Taiko 2 videos I can tell you the lucky message that I just bought it and am downloading... :D 

Good luck for your projects

Sid Francis


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## dosdays (Nov 15, 2013)

NineVoltAudio @ Thu Nov 15 said:


> I remember long ago, back around the time of my second or third release, the utterly sick, punch-in-the-gut feeling I got upon discovering a Nine Volt Audio library posted to a pirate site for the first time.



I don't visit here much, but I just noticed this thread and also the news that Nine Volt is closing. Yes, that is the exact feeling. A punch that knocks your wind out. I vividly remember my first jolts regarding piracy of my works. I though, never settled for a "what will be will be" position.

My temperament was a mix of rage and a vow to force any pirate caught (in court summons) to cough up a fair chunk of money via judgments and court awards. In my mind, I had a bit of power to convert a pirate into a one-time customer....albeit at a huge cost to the pirate. It has worked many times and at times, it provided the momentum for me to continue on. Alas, there is a cumulative weariness that comes from living on that kind of edge, and I have repositioned my focus.

As I mentioned in my only other post to these forums, the cost to one's mental health is very high when you are the creator of the content and your entire ability to survive economically is based on that which you have created.

For me, I have shifted my work and livelihood to a purposeful area where I can not be pirated. I have a lucrative line of work now with a very limited set of clients and, most importantly, there is not a product or product path out to the web that can harm me...or rather..... not harm my bank account or my sense of well being.

That's everything.... especially if you have a family and kids as I do.

The random lawsuits still come up. Mostly because when I hear about it happening to my (now fairly ancient) products, I still use my legally granted rights to pursue a stop to it. Because I can still get angry. And I still know how to operate in the legal system. But the instances are more rare.

As I mentioned a year or so ago regarding Cinesamples, my heart also goes out to the Nine Volt guy. 

Closing is the best remedy. I agree with Nine Volt's decision. Life is too short. 

Besides, it's not like you lose the talent to create. But there are other routes to focus that talent (as I have found for me) where you're not going crazy every day in dealing with an online situation that will...never....end.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (May 8, 2017)

InSessionAudio said:


> For a long time I have felt ambivalent about piracy in the digital realm. As the owner, operator and janitor for Nine Volt Audio I long ago came to an acceptance that my sound libraries would be pirated, offered free for the taking to the likes of thousands. I remember long ago, back around the time of my second or third release, the utterly sick, punch-in-the-gut feeling I got upon discovering a Nine Volt Audio library posted to a pirate site for the first time. But that feeling has gone away, and has been replaced with a “what-will-be-will-be” feeling.
> 
> Recently I was made aware that TAIKO 2 had been pirated. TAIKO 2 is a 2.4 GB Kontakt format library containing over 11,500 samples of Japanese drums. I released it less than four months ago.
> 
> ...




I almost fell into the trap of complacent pirating in the past.
But deep down (as I believe everyone does know) I knew it was wrong and selfish.
A trap you can just justify yourself into, sadly

Sorry man

I bet no one thinks about who's passion for making content it will crush being a consumer of all they want


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## d.healey (May 8, 2017)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> I almost fell into the trap of complacent pirating in the past.
> But deep down (as I believe everyone does know) I knew it was wrong and selfish.
> A trap you can just justify yourself into, sadly
> 
> ...


I think you're a few years too late


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## Shad0wLandsUK (May 8, 2017)

d.healey said:


> I think you're a few years too late



It does not make my remorse any less meaningful


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## SoNowWhat? (May 8, 2017)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> It does not make my remorse any less meaningful


Props.


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## kurtvanzo (May 8, 2017)

How ironic that this is one of the few libraries (Ninevolt Taiko 2) I would like to buy but can't, and could probably download from a torrent site but won't. I'm thankful to have paid for everything I have and have never crossed that line. These libraries are major work and those that toil deserve their pay.


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## mc_deli (May 9, 2017)

Interesting that if you search for "Ninevolt Taiko torrent" this thread comes up first.

So, why was this thread brought back from the dead again?


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## kurtvanzo (May 9, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> Interesting that if you search for "Ninevolt Taiko torrent" this thread comes up first.
> 
> So, why was this thread brought back from the dead again?



ShadowlandsUK wanted to confess and mend his ways. This is still a huge issue, and hopefully it reminds us of how developers hard work allows us to make the music we do. By not supporting them we are cutting off our own oxygen supply. But I suppose for those working hard at their music, this should be obvious.


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## kitekrazy (May 9, 2017)

kurtvanzo said:


> How ironic that this is one of the few libraries (Ninevolt Taiko 2) I would like to buy but can't, and could probably download from a torrent site but won't. I'm thankful to have paid for everything I have and have never crossed that line. These libraries are major work and those that toil deserve their pay.



Sometimes the whole Nine Volt Library will come out on sale.


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## Consona (May 10, 2017)

kitekrazy said:


> Sometimes the whole Nine Volt Library will come out on sale.


I hope so because the last time I checked them I wanted to buy like 3 or 4 of them.


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## drumman (May 10, 2017)

The Nine Volt creator now makes these libraries:
https://insessionaudio.com/
If you contacted him (Kyle), maybe he could help. I think the Nine Volt stuff, though, was sold to someone else or a distributor or something. But still, I always found Kyle to be a very helpful guy (on a minor problem or two that I had). Perhaps he could point you toward a solution in purchasing what you want.


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## drumman (May 10, 2017)

mouse said:


> Isn't it still on VSTBuzz?


Yeah, that's who owns it now. Toward the bottom of that page, there's a button that says, "See all past deals." Page 8 has the Taiko drums. Unfortunately, all these past deals say, "Deal expired." But contact VSTBuzz. Maybe they can help.


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## mouse (May 10, 2017)

drumman said:


> Yeah, that's who owns it now. Toward the bottom of that page, there's a button that says, "See all past deals." Page 8 has the Taiko drums. Unfortunately, all these past deals say, "Deal expired." But contact VSTBuzz. Maybe they can help.



Is it part of this bundle? Because that's still available?

http://vstbuzz.com/deals/96-off-ultimate-rmx-30k-bundle-worth-2400/


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## kurtvanzo (May 10, 2017)

mouse said:


> Is it part of this bundle? Because that's still available?
> 
> http://vstbuzz.com/deals/96-off-ultimate-rmx-30k-bundle-worth-2400/



This is Nine volt's RMX bundle (loop libraries), but it doesn't include the regular Kontakt instruments (like Taiko 2). I've contacted Kyle a few times at session audio about picking up the old instruments, but never heard back. He was nice enough to get me "The Beat Asthetic" (Taikos) and "Shimmer and Shake" (shakers) before shutting down, which is really all I wanted out of the RMX bundle.


----------



## mouse (May 10, 2017)

kurtvanzo said:


> This is Nine volt's RMX bundle (loop libraries), but it doesn't include the regular Kontakt instruments (like Taiko 2). I've contacted Kyle a few times at session audio about picking up the old instruments, but never heard back. He was nice enough to get me "The Beat Asthetic" (Taikos) and "Shimmer and Shake" (shakers) before shutting down, which is really all I wanted out of the RMX bundle.



Oh yea see what you mean. None of it is actually Kontakt.


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## Mike Fox (May 10, 2017)

I see people stealing my music, and even worse, making crappy EDM versions of it.


----------



## Matt Riley (May 11, 2017)

There should be stiff penalties for sites that engage piracy. I've had my stuff stolen a few times and it is infuriating.


----------



## Hans Adamson (May 11, 2017)

Piracy is criminal and hurts everyone. Some developers endorse it for popularity reasons. It kills the business.


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## timprebble (May 12, 2017)

It is a difficult subject - I was tipped off to a bunch of my libraries on a torrent site, seeded by a user with a fairly unique name. It made me feel sick and at the same time very angry. I checked my sales email database & found the same name. I did more research & eventually got the guys legal name & address, IP address and screenshots of all activity... Also from the torrent site data I worked out the value of the downloaded libraries from his torrents - it was over US$30k. So what would you then do with this information? 

I contacted a lawyer in the country of the pirater (UK) who said I could take him to court, and with the evidence I had he would very likely lose & all costs & some damages would be charged to him... I could see on his FB account he had a fairly simple but ok studio... So it came down to this: if I proceeded I would basically be liquidating the guy. He would very likely lose the court case, and presuming he didn't have the cash would lose his studio.

I had also contacted a local anti-piracy group in my country, who contacted associates in UK. They sent an investigator around to his house, he wasn't home but they left a fairly serious message for him. He made contact with them and claimed to be full of remorse... and took the torrents down....

The conclusion I came to was this: its one thing downloading pirated content, and anyone who does & who uses it should know their work can be DCMA'd at any time. So if years later they get a job for a game studio or something, and forget which of their content they actually own and use that pirated content... That project could be DCMA'd after it has been released - imagine what that would do to your career... I hear my work used in film & TV shows, and I do check who used it & owns it as I am interested & often contact the person to congratulate them...

But for people who upload or seed torrents, they deserve a special place in hell. And just because I didnt proceed with prosecuting said ahole now, does not mean I won't in the future. They should know a sword of damocles hangs over them and if they ever revert to more of the same behaviour, I very well may make that call....


----------



## novaburst (May 12, 2017)

kurtvanzo said:


> and hopefully it reminds us of how developers hard work allows us to make the music we do.



The thief is a very self-centred person, thankfully there are people that understand the importance of development and will always out number the thief


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## AdventureSounds (May 13, 2017)

I'm about to release my first commercial library and would hate this to happen to me. I feel for all the developers who have lost money / recognition for the effort they put into their products.


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## Voider (May 13, 2017)

mikefox789 said:


> I see people stealing my music, and even worse, making crappy EDM versions of it.



If you see that happen on youtube you can claim rights and monetize it instead of getting it removed, their videos will get advertisement and you'll earn the money


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## Mike Fox (May 14, 2017)

Voider said:


> If you see that happen on youtube you can claim rights and monetize it instead of getting it removed, their videos will get advertisement and you'll earn the money


Ironically, Ive had those same people try to pull that crap with my videos. Thats how I found out that they were stealing my music.


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## TimCox (May 19, 2017)

I remember a long time ago my band put out an album and keep in mind we were no name nobodies with zero fanbase. Just random folk who got a copy of our album. A few months later at my family business we had the album on display and one of our customers looked at it but didn't buy it. He came in later and told me how much he enjoyed it which was nice and then he proceeded to tell me to my face how he downloaded it from LimeWire.

Pretty much pissed me off because we paid for _everything_ ourselves. It blows my mind that ADULTS do this. Just crazy.


----------



## d.healey (May 20, 2017)

AdventureSounds said:


> I'm about to release my first commercial library and would hate this to happen to me.


It will and there is little that can be done about it unfortunately


----------



## Smikes77 (May 20, 2017)

TimCox said:


> I remember a long time ago my band put out an album and keep in mind we were no name nobodies with zero fanbase. Just random folk who got a copy of our album. A few months later at my family business we had the album on display and one of our customers looked at it but didn't buy it. He came in later and told me how much he enjoyed it which was nice and then he proceeded to tell me to my face how he downloaded it from LimeWire.
> 
> Pretty much pissed me off because we paid for _everything_ ourselves. It blows my mind that ADULTS do this. Just crazy.



Serious?

That's like going into a shop, stealing a dvd, then a few days later going back in and telling a staff member that you 'took it' earlier and told him how good a film it was.


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## Karsten Vogt (May 20, 2017)

Wow, a lot of hardcore law and order fans here. Piracy does not kill the business. Did the tape kill music sales as foretold? No, music sales are still alive. Did the CD burner kill music sales as foretold? No, music sales are still alive. Did mp3/ogg/flac kill music sales as foretold? No, music sales are still alive. Furthermore all new technologies increased sales of music in the end. Yes, there will be people copying music and not paying for it.

Interesting topic by an Intel employee: https://software.intel.com/en-us/blogs/2012/09/22/gaming-piracy-separating-fact-from-fiction
I've hardly ever seen anyone taking up this topic with substential facts and proof. If a publisher states "we have more than 50% of pirated copies of our product" he isn't credible at all if he can't prove his statement.

So, there are "pirates". What's the solution? IMHO we don't have to punish these people the hardest way possible. We have to see them as potential customers and we have to encourage them to buy a product, make them clear, that a developer needs the sale of his product. My second point is that punishment of customers with barriers like PACE/iLok, eLincencer or challenge-response is counterproductive to sales. If people have the choice they'll most likely choose the product without these barriers. I would have bought quite some stuff from Sonnox, the Seventh Heaven reverb, Steve Slate plugins and more but I refuse to encourage these devs from punishing their customers.

An interesting interview with Marcin Iwiński (co-founder of Project Red, development studio of Witcher 3):
http://kotaku.com/it-s-a-mixed-bag-how-often-do-you-see-pirates-attempt-1783869296

A rather generic but very interesting approach on crime and its punishment in general and maybe the difference of mentality between americans and europeans:


Side fact: whenever we buy a computer, a printer, a USB stick, a cd burner, a recordable bluray/dvd/cd or an MP3 player in Germany we also pay copyright royalties.

TL;DR: there will always be "piracy". Convert pirates to legal customers.


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## EvilDragon (May 20, 2017)

Yep... Karsten does have a point. This is how u-he handles their business, in fact.


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## novaburst (May 20, 2017)

Karsten Vogt said:


> TL;DR: there will always be "piracy". Convert pirates to legal customers



Stealing is stealing weather you break into some ones house, steal there car, snatch a handbag from a woman, bank robbery, or cracked software.

The word steal does not change suddenly because its software, its still the same, *stop backing the crook*

ok now cyber crime is on the rise rise shall we love them and give them a big cuddle after they have cleaned out your bank, and sold your details to some human slave gang, simply because it was done over the web.

The developer may or may not earn a huge amount of finance from his or her creation does not mean they should set aside millions of copies for the crook, and set aside over priced copies for those who will pay to make up for stolen copies.

Shall we all now download cracked software ware simply because we are paying some copyright because we purchased a dvd, or some copying software, come on lets all start downloading cracked software, because we now have the right to because I have a dvd player and I have purchased some copyright. 

*its all the same thing* .......*STEALING...... stop making excuses for the crook*


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## novaburst (May 20, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> Yep... Karsten does have a point.


No he does not have a point, get a life


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## manifest (May 20, 2017)

novaburst said:


> No he does not have a point, get a life



You must be the law and order fan Karsten was referring to.

You've backed up your claim with nothing other than opinion. I've noticed a tendency whenever piracy comes up in this forum, there are a lot of heated discussions but rarely are they logical and fact-based, with opposing sides open enough to learn from each other.

Both sides of the argument have valid points, whether you agree with them or not. Both sides need to be understood to have a wholesome discussion about this topic (as the range of this topic is vast and certainly not conclusive). Karsten provided information and opinion from another angle, and if you weren't so dismissive and childish, you might have learned a little bit more about this topic to better your understanding (unless, you actually don't have an intention to broaden your understanding, and by the looks of your response, you'd rather come here to attack someones idea).

More important than all of this, for me, is the ability to entertain opposing ideas in your brain while holding off your ego for long enough to learn new information, even if at the end of it, you don't make a new conclusion or change your thoughts on a given topic.

And one last thing, www.yourlogicalfallacyis.com might be helpful for you.


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## bigcat1969 (May 20, 2017)

The irony behind copy protection is it often makes the product more difficult or annoying to use for the honest customer. In the days before Steam I used to regularly buy games on disk and then get the cracks so I wouldn't have to jump through coy protection hoops to play the game. The pirated version was a better experience. In this world of dongles and defacto rootkits as DRM which face honest customers I would say the pirates have won.


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## manifest (May 20, 2017)

Getting back on topic, here is an interesting article regarding how Adobe views and deals with piracy of it's software. 
I find it valuable for this discussion as they've been one of the top pirated companies on the internet for a long time (just look at the top list on any torrent index). 
https://torrentfreak.com/tired-of-t...-hopes-to-turn-pirates-into-customers-130625/
https://torrentfreak.com/tired-of-t...-hopes-to-turn-pirates-into-customers-130625/


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## Flaneurette (May 20, 2017)

In psychology it's well known that if an opportunity arises, and there is no peer/social pressure, and little to no punishment, that most people are willing commit a crime if circumstances let them. Fraud, cheating on taxes, nicking something. etc. The IRS knows that many people try to shave a couple of dollars on their tax return. Hey, big companies do it all the time.

There has been a study done with shoplifters, and they found out that most shoplifters aren't poor people. Often, they are good customers who reason their way into a free item by thinking they deserve a little extra, because they are such a good customer. (narcissism, maybe?)

Here is another good example of taking bribes which shows that when 'golden opportunity' to bribe arises, it's hard to pass up. Moral: don't study psychology... it's maddening to realize how irrational _we_ human beings are. People will steal.

So I think that with anonymity, opportunity, and without any social pressure, stealing will continue. I guess the only way to change this behavior is to keep repeating the mantra that stealing is bad (peer pressure), and take away the opportunity because I am fairly sure we can't fix the psychology and human (maybe even evolutionary) element behind it.


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## EvilDragon (May 20, 2017)

10Dman said:


> Does anyone know where one can buy the Taiko 2 library these days? Was looking for it for a couple of years a go, and couldnt find it. Still cant find it today.



You cannot anymore.



novaburst said:


> No he does not have a point, get a life



Yes he does, and you going straight for ad hominem shows how lacking in arguments you really are.


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## Karsten Vogt (May 20, 2017)

novaburst said:


> Stealing is stealing weather you break into some ones house, steal there car, snatch a handbag from a woman, bank robbery, or cracked software.
> 
> The word steal does not change suddenly because its software, its still the same,


You were right until here.


novaburst said:


> stop backing the crook


I don't. I just think we have to look for new ways to lower piracy. It just doesn't work with harder punishment. Time has proven that. Look at the war on drugs. Hard sentences, crucial punishments: what did that lead to? Nothing. Now there is a legalization of marijuana in the U.S. (edit: at least in some states). The same country that spent billions of dollars to fight a war they just couldn't win. And now they made criminals to legal customers and earn a substantial amount of money while crime and costs decrease. I just wish european politicians were that smart.

I don't want to justify copyright infringement at all. I'd like to point out that we have to look for new ways to solve this issue. The old ways like harder punishment, more control and observation didn't lead to a better result. I don't want to live in Orwell's 1984.

A solution was already discussed in Germany: culture flatrate. Everybody pays and culture generating instances receive money. This could be one step to solve this matter: https://www.ip-watch.org/2009/05/11/the-world-is-going-flat-rate/


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## d.healey (May 20, 2017)

Karsten Vogt said:


> A solution was already discussed in Germany: culture flatrate. Everybody pays and culture generating instances receive money. This could be one step to solve this matter: https://www.ip-watch.org/2009/05/11/the-world-is-going-flat-rate/


Sounds like the kind of thing Richard Stallman has been proposing for years. He said something like - piracy is stealing ships not sharing software without the permission of the copyright holder, but companies have used that term for decades to make it seem like it's something it isn't and that it hurts the product which it doesn't.

Software piracy is stealing in the sense that someone is/can be profiting from another's copyrighted work without their permission, it is not stealing in the sense of taking something away from somebody without their consent. Those who download software illegally were never going to be a paying customer so you haven't lost anything.

I came to realise this after wasting a long time issuing take down notices for my stuff that's been pirated. All my stuff is available on wares sites still but my sales are stronger than ever because those people aren't my customers. Think about it, they are not my customers, neither are people who are looking for anything I don't sell, I can't lose anything to someone who isn't going to buy from me anyway. I don't sell cheese but I don't feel hurt or lose income because people looking to buy cheese don't come to my website.

So the solution for me is to release my future products as GPL donationware, those who value it and want to support it will and those who don't won't, exactly the same as it is now only I won't be making anyone a criminal and I will be sharing with the community without losing anything - software, "intellectual property" isn't hurt because someone made a copy of it, in fact everyone benefits and if it's open source then even better; because software as a whole will get better - imagine how much better all our sample libraries could be if the methods of each company could be freely used - we'd all have polyphonic true legato, phase alignment, time stretching etc, everyone's products would be better and no-one would lose out - unless the only thing they had of value was a gimmick.

The 21st century approach to selling software can't be the same historical approach to selling real world items, it just doesn't translate. Software can be copied and shared so easily, and that is a good thing, we shouldn't criminalise sharing we should try and look at it from a different view and think how can we take advantage of easy sharing to benefit as many people as possible and make a living - if your only goal is to make as much money as possible with little regard for your customers or community then continue to fight the un-winnable war on "pirates". My goal is to make good software and pay my bills and I was initially surprised to find that piracy had no noticeable impact on those goals.


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## creativeforge (May 20, 2017)

d.healey said:


> Software piracy is stealing in the sense that someone is/can be profiting from another's copyrighted work without their permission, it is not stealing in the sense of taking something away from somebody without their consent. Those who download software illegally were never going to be a paying customer so you haven't lost anything.
> 
> I came to realise this after wasting a long time issuing take down notices for my stuff that's been pirated. All my stuff is available on wares sites still but my sales are stronger than ever because those people aren't my customers. Think about it, they are not my customers, neither are people who are looking for anything I don't sell, I can't lose anything to someone who isn't going to buy from me anyway. I don't sell cheese but I don't feel hurt or lose income because people looking to buy cheese don't come to my website.
> 
> ...



I'm truly impressed by your perspective, very progressive, and must be freeing too. Do you think other up-and-coming developers would find this a viable "business model?"

Cheers,

Andre


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## tack (May 20, 2017)

Isn't the only relevant question to make a business decision on how to deal with piracy how many pirated copies would have been converted to legitimate sales if the pirated/cracked versions weren't otherwise available? Objectively, this will be less than the total number of pirated copies.

Companies that invest heavily into anti-piracy options are behaving as if they believe the number of lost conversions is significant. I always wondered if there was actual data for this, or if decision makers in these companies were reacting emotionally.

I don't believe I've seen any well-sourced data on this specific point. It's admittedly difficult, and any data that does exist is likely to have a reporting bias. Anyone have any sources?


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## Mike Fox (May 20, 2017)

Karsten Vogt said:


> Wow, a lot of hardcore law and order fans here. Piracy does not kill the business. Did the tape kill music sales as foretold? No, music sales are still alive. Did the CD burner kill music sales as foretold? No, music sales are still alive. Did mp3/ogg/flac kill music sales as foretold? No, music sales are still alive. Furthermore all new technologies increased sales of music in the end. Yes, there will be people copying music and not paying for it.



Theres a major difference between burning a few copies for your friends, and uploading files for the entire world. That's not even a good comparison.


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## Karsten Vogt (May 20, 2017)

mikefox789 said:


> Theres a major difference between burning a few copies for your friends, and uploading files for the entire world. That's not even a good comparison.


Oh, is there? I don't think so. Both are the same act of copyright violation. Only with a different outcome.

Did you ever visit bigger cities about 20 years ago? I still remember street dealers in Europe (especially those from nothern africa) in big cities dealing music cds; later it was movie dvds. Pretty good copies with printed cd and artwork; those were commercial like copies. Or the polish markets in eastern Germany where professionally produced tapes were sold. Then came Napster and BitTorrent after that and music was available worldwide; also far from "copies for friends". Violation of copyright was always there. Technology just made consumption AND piracy wider available. And sales went straight up with modern technology.
And with global communication far more news is instantly available and the awareness rises. Would you have read news about copyright infringements (especially in foreign countries) in your local newspaper 20 years ago? I doubt it.


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## d.healey (May 20, 2017)

creativeforge said:


> Do you think other up-and-coming developers would find this a viable "business model?"


I think this is a very viable business model. However I don't think most developers will, I'm essentially going to be giving away premium sample libraries that are expensive to make and relying on crowdfunding/donations to make money (I may have some non-intrusive paid ads on my site too). I'll be producing these in HISE so they can be released completely free (as in freedom), giving the user the ability to truly control the library and customise it to their needs, this freedom is more important to me than money (I'm a user too).

I don't think companies need to change their business model, just their attitude to "pirates". Basically it's a waste of resources to try to prevent piracy. - it's a losing battle, you can't stop software being uploaded and if you catch a pirate it's unlikely you can take any action against him unless you have a lot of money, and even if you do it's unlikely the pirate will have enough assets to cover your costs and losses. Far better to invest your energy in producing new libraries. I've been down this road, not any more, it is not something I need to lose sleep over again 

If other developers do want to take an approach that is closer to my intentions then they can release their software under a more permissive license, preferably GPL but not necessarily, and still charge premium prices - their business won't change, just their attitude. Customers don't just buy the library, they buy the bug fixes, updates, customer support, reliable and secure download links, gloating rights, and a warm feeling inside  These are why people don't pirate in the first place and this isn't lost with libre software. Releasing under a permissive license won't harm business, it progresses technology, doesn't criminalise people for sharing, puts the user in control of the software so they can make it work for them, and allows products to exist beyond the life of the developer. I hate it when a developer goes out of business or is bought up by another company and their software disappears, becomes inaccessible, or is no longer maintained. Two examples I can think of right now are keymap pro (thanks Apple!) and DiscoDSP Bliss (this company is still in business apparently but I'm unable to access their website to buy a license for this product which I would like to do!).

Libre software is a very utopian ideal and seems counter-intuitive to a business mind, but it can work and is the only real way to eliminate piracy as a problem. If you have a product worth supporting people will support it, you might make less money but you will still make "enough" money.

An excellent example is wordpress, completely free software (as in freedom/libre) and the business is very stable. WooCommerce is the same and here's something interesting, because WooCommerce plugins are GPL it means anyone can download them and sell them or give them away legally, and in fact there is a website that does this, they sell these plugins at a greatly reduced price than WooCommerce does. I choose to buy my plugins from WooCommerce at the higher price however. This is both a matter of principle and practicality; principle because I think it's morally wrong to resell unmodified GPL software - it's not the spirit of GPL in my opinion but it is legal - and practical because by buying from WooCommerce I get all the updates automatically and I get their excellent support, I also know that I'm supporting the creators of the plugins and not just lining the pockets of some guys who want to profit from the work of others without adding anything to the community.


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## tcollins (May 20, 2017)

It feels like theft if you've worked for months to create something, just like getting stiffed on a gig feels like theft. Justify it if you like for Adobe, Microsoft, and the big guys, but it can be devastating for someone just getting started. Most of the developers I've talked to have a similar experience to mine; as soon as the library hits the torrents, sales fall. Piracy does impact sales and the income of creative people, the kind of people who step out and try to make something new. Not only that, but it cheats the honest paying customers who buy libraries legally. I've had people tell me they were saving money to buy one of our libraries, and that it would take a few weeks. And this was for libraries priced around $50! I am extremely grateful to people who will do the right thing, even when it's hard for them to do.

I no longer lose sleep over piracy. A product is released and I have a couple of days before it hits. I fight it as well as I can.


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## Mike Fox (May 20, 2017)

Karsten Vogt said:


> Oh, is there? I don't think so. Both are the same act of copyright violation. Only with a different outcome.
> 
> Did you ever visit bigger cities about 20 years ago? I still remember street dealers in Europe (especially those from nothern africa) in big cities dealing music cds; later it was movie dvds. Pretty good copies with printed cd and artwork; those were commercial like copies. Or the polish markets in eastern Germany where professionally produced tapes were sold. Then came Napster and BitTorrent after that and music was available worldwide; also far from "copies for friends". Violation of copyright was always there. Technology just made consumption AND piracy wider available. And sales went straight up with modern technology.
> And with global communication far more news is instantly available and the awareness rises. Would you have read news about copyright infringements (especially in foreign countries) in your local newspaper 20 years ago? I doubt it.


I could make a copy of a cd for a friend or two, or I could upload the album to several torrent sites, which then thousands of people could download it. More illegal downloads could potentially mean less money into the artist's pockets. The difference is in the numbers. That's the major difference I'm referring to, not the act of breaking copyright laws.


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## Mike Fox (May 20, 2017)

tcollins said:


> It feels like theft if you've worked for months to create something, just like getting stiffed on a gig feels like theft. Justify it if you like for Adobe, Microsoft, and the big guys, but it can be devastating for someone just getting started. Most of the developers I've talked to have a similar experience to mine; as soon as the library hits the torrents, sales fall. Piracy does impact sales and the income of creative people, the kind of people who step out and try to make something new. Not only that, but it cheats the honest paying customers who buy libraries legally. I've had people tell me they were saving money to buy one of our libraries, and that it would take a few weeks. And this was for libraries priced around $50! I am extremely grateful to people who will do the right thing, even when it's hard for them to do.
> 
> I no longer lose sleep over piracy. A product is released and I have a couple of days before it hits. I fight it as well as I can.



I think this is where piracy is the most damaging. Great post!


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## Mike Fox (May 20, 2017)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nelsongranados/2016/02/01/how-online-piracy-hurts-emerging-artists/amp/


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## timprebble (May 20, 2017)

"Piracy does not kill the business"

But you cannot deny piracy DID kill this specific Taiko library, right?
Generalised stats or anecdotes are one thing, but when you are dead you are 100% dead.
My point is that I am not sure generalising the issue of piracy helps clarify the specific situation we have here.

The important difference to that of pirated movies or music or ebooks or many other digital goods is this: 
We are not selling the end result. We are selling a license to legitimately use resources & tools we have created so the composer, musician or sound designer can then create new legitimate content. This fact puts pirates in a situation that they may never even consider... and may not even care about, but it is a significant difference.

For example, say a trainee builder steals a hammer. His use of that stolen hammer does not make all of the future building work he does with that stolen hammer illegitimate - the houses built with that stolen hammer still stand. But if someone uses the Taiko library that started this post in a feature film or TV score, youtube video or really anything at all and they do not own a legitimate license for it then, *their work is legally illegitimate and* *their work can be DCMA'd*. This is profoundly different to many other instances of piracy...


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## Smikes77 (May 20, 2017)

Why can't we buy the taiko 2 library anymore?


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## Strezov (May 20, 2017)

Guys, just my humble two cents - we've had sales on numerous occasions where people buy our products with stolen credit cards and then the rightful owners of the cards do chargebacks towards PayPal, which results in us losing the money. Our website system is fully automated and each sale distributes commissions to many people... which basically means that piracy may not kill the business, but it seriously damages it. I have ZERO tolerance towards people who use pirated software... 

Funny fact of the day - we have 1 or 2 sales overall in Bulgaria (after nearly 5 years of doing this) and I continue to stumble across people in my own country who come to congratulate me and to say they're using the libraries full time and they are enjoying them very much... and I'm not speaking about amateurs..... :-(


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## EvilDragon (May 21, 2017)

Smikes77 said:


> Why can't we buy the taiko 2 library anymore?



Because 9VA closed up shop (as in company was dissolved), and dissolved companies cannot sell stuff anymore. If transfer of IP wasn't done to another company (and it looks like this is the case), other companies cannot sell it, either.


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## jononotbono (May 21, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> Because 9VA closed up shop (as in company was dissolved), and dissolved companies cannot sell stuff anymore. If transfer of IP wasn't done to another company (and it looks like this is the case), other companies cannot sell it, either.



Excuse my ignorance but what is to stop 9VA releasing it under a different company name? Seems really unfair for people that work so hard!


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## EvilDragon (May 21, 2017)

Read again.

"If transfer of IP (_intellectual property_) wasn't done to another company (and it looks like this is the case), other companies cannot sell it, either."


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## jononotbono (May 21, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> Read again.
> 
> "If transfer of IP (_intellectual property_) wasn't done to another company (and it looks like this is the case), other companies cannot sell it, either."



Yes. Thank you. I know how to read haha! But why is it that someone can't sell something they have created under a different company name? Seems utterly ridiculous.


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## EvilDragon (May 21, 2017)

That's the US law for ya, I guess. But it's pretty much the same anywhere else in the world, I suppose.

It doesn't matter what you created under your previous companies. That is an asset of that previous company. Your new company needs to have the rights to those assets in order to do anything with them - that alone makes sense. So if this transfer of rights never happened, you just can't do anything with those assets from previous company. That also makes sense. No?


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## d.healey (May 21, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> Because 9VA closed up shop (as in company was dissolved), and dissolved companies cannot sell stuff anymore. If transfer of IP wasn't done to another company (and it looks like this is the case), other companies cannot sell it, either.


Shame they didn't release it to the community before they closed up :(


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## alexballmusic (May 21, 2017)

It's such a difficult issue. When I was a student starting out 15 years ago I had cracked software because I didn't have the money to buy it. All the students shared cracked libraries and sounds. We just didn't think about it - if someone had EastWest, we all had it a few days later.

When I left University and went professional, I bought absolutely everything. Even software I already had cracked copies of. It dawned on me that this software would cease to exist if we don't pay for it. Guess it was partly an age thing.

The one thing that I struggle with is that I've had copy protection problems with genuine software I've bought and also issues with transferring to new machines or re-installing over several years. I know the cracked copies bypass all those problems!

I personally prefer the software and libraries that I can transfer from machine to machine without registering and transferring serial numbers. But then appreciate that this makes it incredibly easy for people to give it away.

I'm not exactly sure what the answer is, it's a really tricky one!


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## jononotbono (May 21, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> That's the US law for ya, I guess. But it's pretty much the same anywhere else in the world, I suppose.
> 
> It doesn't matter what you created under your previous companies. That is an asset of that previous company. Your new company needs to have the rights to those assets in order to do anything with them - that alone makes sense. So if this transfer of rights never happened, you just can't do anything with those assets from previous company. That also makes sense. No?



That does make sense. Or course. But what is utterly ridiculous about this is the fact that a Creative Developer is supposed to just say goodbye to a product that can never be released to anyone commercially ever again, for the rest of time? Until the Sun runs out of Hydrogen and Earth becomes a lump of dead cold Rock in 4.5 Billion years? The end of that library as we know it? I'm not specifically asking you these questions but surely someone must currently own the rights to this library and surely they would want to make money from it at the very least. Or maybe not. Maybe the new owner has a passion for hoarding and collecting other people's dreams in a dark cupboard. Real shame if so.


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## EvilDragon (May 21, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> I'm not specifically asking you these questions but surely someone must currently own the rights to this library and surely they would want to make money from it at the very least.



The situation is complicated, from what I understood, so nobody owns the rights (and nobody _can_ own the rights) after 9VA was dissolved, because IP was not transferred. I hope Kyle will chime in and correct me if I'm wrong.



jononotbono said:


> Or maybe not. Maybe the new owner has a passion for hoarding and collecting other people's dreams in a dark cupboard. Real shame if so.



There's no "new owner". In Session Audio is the same person as the one behind 9VA. And Kyle doesn't have such passion you're talking about, I can confirm it.


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## pmcrockett (May 21, 2017)

It's not only Taiko 2 that's no longer available — none of the other non-REX-based Kontakt libraries are, either. They aren't included in the bundle available from VSTBuzz, which I hadn't realized because I picked them all up in the initial going-out-of-business sale.

So if no one owns the rights to those libraries in a capacity that allows them to grant licenses, how does copyright enforcement work? Does someone still have legal standing to sue over piracy/license breach, or does the dissolution of 9VA effectively render the contracts unenforceable?


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## jononotbono (May 21, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> The situation is complicated, from what I understood, so nobody owns the rights (and nobody _can_ own the rights) after 9VA was dissolved, because IP was not transferred. I hope Kyle will chime in and correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> There's no "new owner". In Session Audio is the same person as the one behind 9VA. And Kyle doesn't have such passion you're talking about, I can confirm it.



Fair enough! haha! 

It's interesting to read all this stuff (and horrible to anyone who has been ripped off) because I am going to make my own Libraries when I have some more time but they are only going to be personal ones. But you never know what the future holds. Are there any devs out there that sell libraries to individuals that personally vet who you are instead of anyone being able to publicly buy via Paypal/Online stores? Although this seems drastic, I wonder whether it is truly the only way to keep piracy at bay because anyone that would buy a product like this would be legit and therefore surely wouldn't mind showing ID (and not just showing ID - having an online account much like how SA works - which I think is a great way of accessing your purchases and being able to redownload them etc)? Nobody bats an Eyelid when you go and buy a Car and have to show evidence of who you are etc. If you purchased libraries like this then there is no way in hell the customer is going to think "I know, I just spent £9k on the Spitfire Everything Bundle. I think I'll upload it illegally for everyone to steal". It just wouldn't happen. And personally, investing as much financially as I already have on all of the musical tools I now own makes me feel invested with certain devs so I really have no problem with the ID thing (if it was a thing of course). This suggestion will probably cause uproar to some but I suspect it won't to many. To stop people stealing things that are seemingly so accessible means to have to control the supply lines and the only way to do that is to know who you are selling to. I'm just thinking out loud and have no experience in this world so I shall stop derailing this thread any further!


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## Smikes77 (May 21, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> Because 9VA closed up shop (as in company was dissolved), and dissolved companies cannot sell stuff anymore. If transfer of IP wasn't done to another company (and it looks like this is the case), other companies cannot sell it, either.



Why did they close shop?


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## pmcrockett (May 21, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> Although this seems drastic, I wonder whether it is truly the only way to keep piracy at bay because anyone that would buy a product like this would be legit and therefore surely wouldn't mind showing ID (and not just showing ID - having an online account much like how SA works - which I think is a great way of accessing your purchases and being able to redownload them etc)? Nobody bats an Eyelid when you go and buy a Car and have to show evidence of who you are etc.


8Dio reportedly requires proof of ID from buyers in certain countries/piracy hotspots. People throw a fit about it whenever it comes up. The problem is that it only takes one person slipping through with a convincingly falsified ID and stolen credit card for a library like this to get pirated.


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## EvilDragon (May 21, 2017)

Smikes77 said:


> Why did they close shop?



Don't know, but piracy might've been a factor, likely.


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## Kaan Guner (May 21, 2017)

Strezov said:


> Guys, just my humble two cents - we've had sales on numerous occasions where people buy our products with stolen credit cards and then the rightful owners of the cards do chargebacks towards PayPal, which results in us losing the money. Our website system is fully automated and each sale distributes commissions to many people... which basically means that piracy may not kill the business, but it seriously damages it. I have ZERO tolerance towards people who use pirated software...
> 
> Funny fact of the day - we have 1 or 2 sales overall in Bulgaria (after nearly 5 years of doing this) and I continue to stumble across people in my own country who come to congratulate me and to say they're using the libraries full time and they are enjoying them very much... and I'm not speaking about amateurs..... :-(




That last part was really harsh


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## Smikes77 (May 21, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> Don't know, but piracy might've been a factor, likely.



Bingo.


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## EvilDragon (May 21, 2017)

Don't think it was the *only* factor, though.


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## Smikes77 (May 21, 2017)

But most likely a factor. Hence the reason for the OP.


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## jononotbono (May 21, 2017)

pmcrockett said:


> 8Dio reportedly requires proof of ID from buyers in certain countries/piracy hotspots. People throw a fit about it whenever it comes up. The problem is that it only takes one person slipping through with a convincingly falsified ID and stolen credit card for a library like this to get pirated.



Well, I truly don't blame 8Dio for asking for ID. I've been thinking about what I just wrote and actually think if I was a Dev I would only sell with proof of ID. I wouldn't care if it seemed very closed doors and exclusive. Saying the word "Exclusive"! Haha! It's hardly exclusive if all that's required is ID. We live in a different time now to when the internet was first publicly accessible and perhaps new measures need to be taken up? Nobody seems to care about signing up for a Paypal account, Ebay Account, Amazon, PS4, the list is endless. All sharing their personal details, bank details and storing it in their precious iCloud (or whatever you prefer) for anyone to hack into. It's ridiculous that people would have a problem to show some ID for purchasing Musical tools. Some of which cost a serious amount of money (and I'm not suggesting these products aren't worth the money - just some do actually cost a lot of it ). You even have to show ID and proof of where you live when you buy a TV from a Supermarket in the UK now (for the TV licence). And yeah, it does only take one person. You are right and I don't think piracy can ever be fully stopped but surely knowing who you sell to is a first step in trying to avoid this kind of thing? Genuinely, if someone buys an 8Dio library, sure they are watermarked but what's the use of the Watermark if, as you say, it has been bought by someone with False ID and stolen Credit card? It's useless. Even for finding out who Uploaded it. However, (and I genuinely don't know this) what about, for example, a Spitfire library that goes through Native Instruments Kontakt Service Centre whereby you need a Serial Number? Surely when someone types in their Serial number upon Activation, it is registered in a database? Then, let's say someone stole that, uploaded it to the Internet, and then Kanye West downloaded it and typed that code in. Surely it wouldn't work because it's been previously used and activated?

"But not all Libraries use NI Service Centre!" - Well, perhaps they should (if they are Kontakt based)? Yes, it costs money but if you own/lease a shop (a physical one made from Bricks and Mortar) the amount of money you can spend on securing the premises can be huge. Locks, Bars, Cameras, Motion Sensors, Live Connection to Police call out etc Paying to protect the products that live in the virtual world may need more Virtual protection than just a Watermark? Perhaps the use of a Dongle, Serial and ID is a good way to stop this? Most of us already use multiple iLoks and Elicensers so perhaps make it work with one of these so you don't need to buy another (and use another USB port)? Just thinking out loud again. Of course, none of this may be viable but something has to be done about Piracy. Or nothing and just keep on going down this free for all road humanity has decided to go down. How cynical haha!


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## d.healey (May 21, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> "But not all Libraries use NI Service Centre!" - Well, perhaps they should (if they are Kontakt based)?


NI's security is worthless. A pirate doesn't need to use a serial key to "activate" a pirated Kontakt player library, they just need to use a cracked version of Kontakt. Piracy is not preventable (although iLok is doing pretty well), the only solution is to run your business in such a way that piracy isn't a big deal. Also for some developers they would lose more money by paying NI a license fee than through piracy.


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## jononotbono (May 21, 2017)

d.healey said:


> NI's security is worthless. A pirate doesn't need to use a serial key to "activate" a pirated Kontakt player library, they just need to use a cracked version of Kontakt. Piracy is not preventable (although iLok is doing pretty well), the only solution is to run your business in such a way that piracy isn't a big deal. Also for some developers they would lose more money by paying NI a license fee than through piracy.



Fair enough. But Cubase hasn't been cracked so why not use an Elicenser?


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## d.healey (May 21, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> Fair enough. But Cubase hasn't been cracked so why not use an Elicenser?


Which version of Cubase? I thought they've all been cracked up to now. Kontakt doesn't use a dongle though so it's not an option for most developers and if it was you can bet the crackers would put more effort into cracking it.


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## jononotbono (May 21, 2017)

d.healey said:


> Which version of Cubase? I thought they've all been cracked up to now. Kontakt doesn't use a dongle though so it's not an option for most developers and if it was you can bet the crackers would put more effort into cracking it.



I think Cubase hasn't been cracked since Version 5. Which is amazing really. And to kind of negate what you have said about crackers putting more effort into cracking it... Perhaps. But I think Cubase is a hugely popular DAW. One of the most popular so why hasn't it been cracked? Sounds like the Elicenser is pretty amazing. Anyway, you're right. Kontakt doesn't use a Dongle. Perhaps it should?


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## d.healey (May 21, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> I think Cubase hasn't been cracked since Version 5. Which is amazing really. And to kind of negate what you have said about crackers putting more effort into cracking it... Perhaps. But I think Cubase is a hugely popular DAW. One of the most popular so why hasn't it been cracked? Sounds like the Elicenser is pretty amazing. Anyway, you're right. Kontakt doesn't use a Dongle. Perhaps it should?


A quick look on some well known torrent sites shows that Cubase 7 and 8 have been cracked, so I assume 6 is available too and 9 will follow at some point. I'm sure I read back when Cubase 5 was cracked that steinberg hired the crackers to improve their security, don't know if this is true though.


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## jononotbono (May 21, 2017)

d.healey said:


> A quick look on some well known torrent sites shows that Cubase 7 and 8 have been cracked, so I assume 6 is available too and 9 will follow at some point



Ok, well if that's true the the Bonfire has been throughly pissed on. Well it's simple then. Any IP addresses that get logged as stealing any form of software gets a team of SAS Soldiers smashing through their phone lines of which they get bagged, tagged and shipped off to an island where they can fight each other to the desperate end with broken DVD-Rs. Will only take 10 years before fear becomes the ultimate dongle. I call shotgun on the Theme tune!


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## EvilDragon (May 21, 2017)

IP addresses are worthless if somebody's using a proxy or VPN...


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## jononotbono (May 21, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> IP addresses are worthless if somebody's using a proxy or VPN...



Ok, forget all these ideas. Time for a new one. Based on Skill level. Anyone who puts any music online that sucks gets Thomas Bergerson's Rotweilers set on them. Someone clever will have to write an algorithm that detects simple stuff like, lack of Articulation Changes and constant velocities, and, oh never mind... 

Thinking about it, have UAD2 Plugins been cracked? I've never heard that they have been. Maybe the key is one step further than a dongle?


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## EvilDragon (May 21, 2017)

UAD have never been cracked because they have more than a dongle - you need to have their DSP card slotted onto your botherboard (or buy their audio interfaces) for them to work. So yeah. Hardcore dongles. :D


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## d.healey (May 21, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> UAD have never been cracked because they have more than a dongle - you need to have their DSP card slotted onto your botherboard (or buy their audio interfaces) for them to work. So yeah. Hardcore dongles. :D


This was the digidesign approach too I believe, although I'm sure their stuff got cracked at some point.


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## EvilDragon (May 21, 2017)

Yep, but not the super-pro (HDX) stuff, AFAIK.


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## Karsten Vogt (May 21, 2017)

With all this discussion I miss ideas or approaches to solve this issue. We all don't want piracy. But what's the next step? Where is the solution to address this problem?

I have nothing but utmost respect for David Healey's courage and business decision. I absolutely hope it works out fine.



Strezov said:


> Funny fact of the day - we have 1 or 2 sales overall in Bulgaria (after nearly 5 years of doing this) and I continue to stumble across people in my own country who come to congratulate me and to say they're using the libraries full time and they are enjoying them very much... and I'm not speaking about amateurs..... :-(


Well, you create great and wonderful top notch libraries which are among the most expensive ones. Don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely not trying to justify copyright violation at all: some of your libraries cost more than an average employee in Bulgaria earns in a month. I just think the vast majority of potential customers can't afford them which should be absolutely no reason at all to commit download them for free. :(

As a hobbyist I'll keep on dreaming about Wotan and ARVA. One day...


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## kitekrazy (May 21, 2017)

I tend to support more developers who have an "I trust you" attitude. How many times do these threads resurface?


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## novaburst (May 21, 2017)

manifest said:


> You've backed up your claim with nothing other than opinion. I've noticed a tendency whenever piracy comes



Yes to much compation for the criminal, in some post,

As soon as you start getting giving reasons why software gets pirated you are giving the crook more of a reason to piracy.

Whats in the middle and all the variables does not matter.

All that matters is the developer created something they put it up for sale and the consumer purchase it, nothing else matters but that.

Some one buys the product , and some one steals the product it's that simple, nothing in the middle matters.

Call it what it is don't give it an excuse.


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## NYC Composer (May 22, 2017)

Although I believe that forward looking problem solving is always a good idea, when I see someone describe piracy as inevitable and impossible to defend against, I get a little queasy. There's some sort of shrugging going on that I find distasteful, all of the analogies of "well, it's not a car or a loaf of bread.." so what? It's someone's hard work. People who steal it are thieves, and it doesn't matter if they're young, old, economically challenged or whatnot. The fact remains that they are committing theft of someone's intellectual property. It's not for the thief to determine what a fair price would be for intellectual property. The marketplace should determine that, not the thief. There are developers who advertise here whose products I feel are too expensive for me. I never give a moment's thought to how I could obtain them without payment.

Here's a thought. If developers who discover IPs of thieves' computers sent them some lovely viruses and there was no way to stop them (the developers) from doing so, is there some universe in which that would be ok? Heck, at least at that point there would be an equivalency-steal software, lose all your data and the functionality of your computer. No one goes to jail, just a simple quid pro quo.

Sure, crowdfunding. Customer loyalty. Donationware. I support anything that gets people paid. I just wish the shruggers were a little more forceful in their condemnation.


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## Karsten Vogt (May 22, 2017)

Wow, breaking the law by sending viruses and malicious software? Fight fire with fire? Why not send a drone to destroy the thief's house? Or chop the thief's hands off? ISIS would love that. Congratulations, you are no better than the criminals you'd like to prosecute. And all that based on IP addresses? Sorry, but you have no clue about how networks work (you might want to read something about NAT, proxies and VPN). Again sorry, but that's just so wrong. Take the time and watch the video (posted a few pages before) with the american DA talking about crime. It's worth it.

Again: I'm not trying to defend it. Violation of laws must be punished according to laws - no doubt about that - but we need an exit strategy so the violation isn't repeated and commited by others in the first place. And this doesn't work with deterrence by punishment.

Hard and constant punishment just doesn't work with humans. War on drugs: drugs are still there. Even in countries with death penalties people are smuggling drugs. Prohibition: people were still drinking, even producing harmful alcohol. Smuggling was rising to new heights. black labour: people still work without paying taxes.

With copyright violation we still at a point 20 years ago without progress.


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## jononotbono (May 22, 2017)

Karsten Vogt said:


> how networks work



Curiously, can your ISP know everything you ever do online? Even if you hide your IP? I mean, they are your service provider so they must surely be able to monitor everything you do regardless of how clever someone thinks they are? 



Karsten Vogt said:


> With copyright violation we still at a point 20 years ago without progress.



I have a feeling it is way more than 20 years. Even in the 1800s, Classical works were released in the evening of a concert because you had Pirates (not the Caribbean types) writing out the music on manuscript paper in the crowds.


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## NYC Composer (May 22, 2017)

But breaking the law by stealing intellectual property, the sweat from someone's labor is sorta kinda not okayish with you though you keep minimizing it. You're anti-punishment and there's nothing we can do about it, punishment doesn't work, etc etc. Got it.

You think destroying computers is Draconian? I think shrugging off theft and tacitly agreeing to see it as insoluble are reductionist ideas. That's why people are different-we have different ideas.

You know, in truth I'm not a big law and order guy. I think the mass incarceration of people in my country is stupid, harmful and wasteful...but I'm not going to generalize and say that there should be nothing punitive involved when there's damage done to hard working people, by violence or thievery. We're not talking about food here. We're talking about software.

Mebbe you should read up a little on the Silk Road....that was a quirky little response to the War on Drugs. Untrammeled commerce turns out to lead to quite a bit of mayhem. The Dread Pirate Roberts had the same noble idea you did-why fight a losing drug war or a losing gun control war-just sell people what they want-drugs, guns, human organs-unfortunately this brilliant libertarian philosophy led to multiple murders and beatings, drug deaths, blah blah. Not everything is quite as clear as you lay it out.

Right-the War on Drugs didn't work in any full sense and there's always a new El Chapo, but some interdiction is probably better than none and some enforcement is as well. Absolutism doesn't work either.

Oh, and speaking of reductionist, fucking up a computer isn't chopping people's hands off or sending drones...besides which, it was obviously absurd. See "no one would think that's okay."


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## IoannisGutevas (May 22, 2017)

Unless you are over 40 years old or never had 0 curiosity about how things work or you are just a mac guy who has more than enough money  , lets admit it you used pirated software at some point in your life. So that "vigilante" attitude doesnt help.

From a simple cracked game, a pirated OS, or a pirated version of photoshop, even a sample library / plugin that you found, or a song you downloaded from YouTube to listen to your car / phone without paying it. 99% of us has done at least something of that and denying it like i said and playing it "vigilante" doesnt help.

So to the situation at hand. There is good and bad piracy like there is good and bad hacking ect. Testing a program out of hobby which you wouldnt buy it anyway and you wont re-sell it or make any money out of it and by using it you praise it and make it famous doesnt fall into the bad piracy spectrum.

So who downloads pirated libraries and why?. Would a professional musician who makes money out his music bother to do it? I doubt it. In a capitalist society that we live in if you make something cool and i use it to make money out of it and im a professional responsible individual i'll probably pay you the price cause that way you will make more of that cool product and my music will become better ect.

Is it about quality or quantity? In music buisness its about quality. You can download a billion pirated libraries and never get anywhere if you dont know how to use them. And you can have 2-3 VIS and work wonders with them making new sounds out of them (with sound design) and making compositions that are top in terms of quality.

Musicians and generally professionals have ethics. So the people who would support you they will do it anyway my friend even if your library is pirated or not.

There is a saying "if you can't avoid something, enjoy it". My version of that is "if you can't avoid something learn from it and make the best out of it". You can see the cup half full rather than half empty. The pirated library can be a huge promotion for you and maybe in the long run you gained new customers through that awful incident cause a lot more people used your product and valued your work and will want to support you.

At least thats my view of things. And i always trust in ethics, in the good side of people and how to make the best out of every situation.  

Unfortunate and bad events if handled properly can have the best outcome


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## NYC Composer (May 22, 2017)

I know a bunch of professional musicians who steal software. Most of them at under 35.


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## Karsten Vogt (May 22, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> Curiously, can your ISP know everything you ever do online? Even if you hide your IP? I mean, they are your service provider so they must surely be able to monitor everything you do regardless of how clever someone thinks they are?


It depends on laws what is being saved and how long. The problem is knowing who is behind the IP address. Imagine a family living in a house with a router and several devices. They all have the same IP address when using services outside their local network (aka internet). It's impossible to determine the person who did something illegal if no additional data is saved. Enterprise networks work the same way only with a bigger scale. Or I can pay a VPN provider: I connect to the VPN and the whole internet traffic is routed to that provider and from there to me masking my IP address. If several users use that provider's VPN server they all have the same IP address.



jononotbono said:


> I have a feeling it is way more than 20 years. Even in the 1800s, Classical works were released in the evening of a concert because you had Pirates (not the Caribbean types) writing out the music on manuscript paper in the crowds.


Correct. With news spreading around the world we are only better informed about those crimes and technology scales this issue (we can sell for more via internet but we also have more copyright violation (absolutely, but with the same percentage I guess)).



NYC Composer said:


> I know a bunch of professional musicians who steal software. Most of them at under 35.


Report it to the authorities. It's the right way. The question is what these guys will do after a conviction. That's where it gets interesting.


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## NYC Composer (May 22, 2017)

IoannisGutevas said:


> Unless you are over 40 years old or never had 0 curiosity about how things work or you are just a mac guy who has more than enough money  , lets admit it you used pirated software at some point in your life. So that "vigilante" attitude doesnt help.
> 
> From a simple cracked game, a pirated OS, or a pirated version of photoshop, even a sample library / plugin that you found, or a song you downloaded from YouTube to listen to your car / phone without paying it. 99% of us has done at least something of that and denying it like i said and playing it "vigilante" doesnt help.
> 
> ...


So if rape is inevitable, lie back and enjoy it.


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## jononotbono (May 22, 2017)

NYC Composer said:


> I know a bunch of professional musicians who steal software. Most of them at under 35.



Let's not forget this chap. I don't "know" him per se but as he's 39yrs old your statistics seem on point! 

http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/dance/6897291/deadmau5-kanye-west-pirate-bay


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## IoannisGutevas (May 22, 2017)

NYC Composer said:


> I know a bunch of professional musicians who steal software. Most of them at under 35.



So playing it vigilante doesnt help anyone. I havent met anyone who havent even downloaded a song from YouTube just to listen to his car or mp3 player 



NYC Composer said:


> So if rape is inevitable, lie back and enjoy it.



I never said that. Read what i said. "My version of that is "if you can't avoid something learn from it and make the best out of it". You can see the cup half full rather than half empty. The pirated library can be a huge promotion for you and maybe in the long run you gained new customers through that awful incident cause a lot more people used your product and valued your work and will want to support you."


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## novaburst (May 22, 2017)

Karsten Vogt said:


> Hard and constant punishment just doesn't work with humans. War on drugs: drugs are still there. Even in countries with death penaltie



I think the system already knows that there is no end to crime,

Crime hurts, it kills, harms business, cripples developers, and the list goes on.

There is no choice but to use punishment as a deterrent to others who may want to go down that road.

There is a no education that can help an attitude of I will have it for nothing, I will even kill and mame to get what I want for nothing, I will take take take and never pay becuase I have a gun, or I am in a gang, and I have the power to do so.

If I can get it without paying for it why not becuase I am self centered self gratification, could not give a rat's .........about any one else but me, no education for that attitude.

Go and educate the mafia who rakes in millions from piracy, drugs, human slavery, peoderphile, corruption in the government, prostitution, blackmail, bribery, can you educate such blackness of heart.


Piracy is none other than cyber crime, if there was no punishment it would have gotten out of control,

All that is happening now is keeping under control with punishment, and keys and dongles.

When some goes out to steal he normally is already educated and perhaps far more educated more than us all.

If they want to do it they will not becuase they don't understand becuase of greed and gain and a thieve will kill to stay on top of everyone else, if they get captcherd then they must be punished, 

There are millions that want do crimes simply because of the fret of prison or getting a criminal record, so hard punishment is the way forward not a softly softly approach.


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## Karsten Vogt (May 22, 2017)

NYC Composer said:


> Mebbe you should read up a little on the Silk Road....that was a quirky little response to the War on Drugs. Untrammeled commerce turns out to lead to quite a bit of mayhem. The Dread Pirate Roberts had the same noble idea you did-why fight a losing drug war or a losing gun control war-just sell people what they want-drugs, guns, human organs-unfortunately this brilliant libertarian philosophy led to multiple murders and beatings, drug deaths, blah blah. Not everything is quite as clear as you lay it out.
> 
> Right-the War on Drugs didn't work in any full sense and there's always a new El Chapo, but some interdiction is probably better than none and some enforcement is as well. Absolutism doesn't work either.
> 
> Oh, and speaking of reductionist, fucking up a computer isn't chopping people's hands off or sending drones...besides which, it was obviously absurd. See "no one would think that's okay."


Silk Road was highly illegal. So this is hard to compare especially with guns and organs (organs wtf). I'm thinking about legal ways to prevent piracy because as you said there is always a new El Chapo. And prevention doesn't come with harder punishment. Culture flatrate is a pretty good step into that direction to prevent copyright violation.
This is about copyright violation. Not prostitution and organ harvesting. Please don't derail this thread.


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## EvilDragon (May 22, 2017)

novaburst said:


> so hard punishment is the way forward not a softly softly approach.



Laughable.

Ask Cinesamples did they ever see those 380K USD from that guy from Chile. Ask them if the guy is in jail. Answer to both: probably not. One thing is a court ruling, another thing is if another (non-US) country will abide by the ruling.



novaburst said:


> Piracy is none other than cyber crime, if there was no punishment it would have gotten out of control,



Laughable again. It's already out of control and there's no real punishment (punishing the legitimate paying user by using dongles is not a real solution - by the way, dongles can also be cracked/emulated/bypassed, as has already been the case with both eLicenser and iLok several times already). Governments are too slow and don't have proper measures to counteract.

Plus, there are countries which don't care about copyright at all. Let's ask fellow Russians what they think about copyright? Ex-socialist regime - there's no such thing as copyright! And so on...


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## jononotbono (May 22, 2017)

We have established the NI's Service Centre is basically useless. So, what about IDing Customer's so the Dev's know who they are selling to? 

"Yes, but Jono, we have already said it only takes one to use a Stolen Credit Card and false Documentation"...

And have Libraries use a Dongle? ID and Dongle. How come that isn't viable? So far, the only thing that has been mentioned that hasn't been cracked is UAD2 and that's because of hardware. So why can't this happen for libraries? Obviously this stuff takes a while to bring into realisation but if you can use an iLok and have Licences from many different Dev's and Products why is it not possible to do something similar for Sample Libraries? Thinking out loud again. I really need to get back to the music. This bloody site is like a time vortex.


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## EvilDragon (May 22, 2017)

NI is anti-dongle, so it won't ever happen. Any dev who wants dongle protection can take a look at Falcon or HALion 6. Both have their pros, but also cons compared to Kontakt.


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## Kaan Guner (May 22, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> Laughable.
> 
> Ask Cinesamples did they ever see those 380K USD from that guy from Chile. Ask them if the guy is in jail. Answer to both: probably not. One thing is a court ruling, another thing is if another (non-US) country will abide by the ruling.
> 
> ...


What is the Cinesamples incident you speak of? I know nothing about it. Can you elaborate?


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## Karsten Vogt (May 22, 2017)

http://www.filmmusicmag.com/?p=9356


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## novaburst (May 22, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> ready out of control and there's no real punishment (punishing the legitimate paying user by
> 
> 
> EvilDragon said:
> ...



I believe users are willing to take this root if only to make it more difficult for the criminal. You use a key to your car don't you, if your house got broken into would you not get stronger security locks we have keys for every thing why not dongle keys for software what the problem with it, once it's connected that's it.

Pacifism does not work, there are to many in society that take advantage of the weak and the law abiding citizen.


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## EvilDragon (May 22, 2017)

novaburst said:


> I believe users are willing to take this root if only to make it more difficult for the criminal.



Well you believe wrongly. Lots of users absolutely despise dongles, going to such ends as not even considering a purchase if it's behind iLok or eLicenser.


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## bigcat1969 (May 22, 2017)

I discovered I love ilok and dongles, they have saved me from so many impulse purchases. If everyone would go ilok I could save 100%...


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## EvilDragon (May 22, 2017)

...QED.


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## d.healey (May 22, 2017)

novaburst said:


> I You use a key to your car don't you, if your house got broken into would you not get stronger security locks we have keys for every thing why not dongle keys for software what the problem with it, once it's connected that's it.


A dongle is less like a key and more like a regular police search, just to check you don't have anything illegal. A key is something I keep in my pocket to open my lock, a dongle is something I can keep in my pocket which I can use to ask a company to open their lock for me - if they are still in business and if their servers are working and I am using an operating system that they have approved of and my internet is up. They can also use it to cut me off. A dongle is a hardware form of malware although I admit they are a pretty good sledgehammer approach to stopping piracy at the expense of users' freedom. I have both an eLicenser for Cubase and an iLok for Play and I have never had a problem with either of them, they work as advertised, this doesn't change my opinion of them as morally wrong however and annoyingly for me and others they won't provide drivers for Linux or tell us how to make our own!


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## novaburst (May 22, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> going to such ends as not even considering a purchase if it's behind iLok or eLicenser



Yer but how on earth can you not consider VSL library's now that is a crime or even madness

On a more serious note, users need to start to consider the enormous ness of piracy and start to fight back by taken on dongles and iloks to send a big message to the criminals out there, ilok can give a few issues but if I am still willing to purchase library's with ilok any one can

Elicense is a walk in the park once you have one dongle it's all you need,

When you give it some thought what really wrong with it, why want you use it, I can understand if users have piracy on there machine, ilok will see it and refuse to install, but if you dont there should be no issues.


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## EvilDragon (May 22, 2017)

You're talking about exact points a lot of people don't like about dongles and as a consequence don't want to have anything to do with them. I can perfectly understand their reasoning. Plus, David's statement above is filled with truth.

You must stop looking at things in the way "if I am still willing, anyone can be too", because not everyone things or will ever think like you do.


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## bigcat1969 (May 22, 2017)

NI does have a lot to answer for. They to some extent cleverly use piracy as an advertising tool and it got me.

Guilty admission. I used to torrent and didn't know what a virtual instrument was. I bumped into a torrent of Komplete and thought hey that looks interesting and I want to make a game with RPG Maker and maybe I can make my own music for it. A long torrent later I had instruments in 15 minute demo mode. After getting interested, I looked up NI and caught their 50% Kontakt sale. Then later the upgrade sale to KU9 bit my wallet.

After discovering the whole piracy thing on certain forums and experimenting with making instruments I wondered if people with limited means might be tempted by free instruments rather than pirated ones. Obviously I can't claim to be at the same quality level or anywhere close but I have managed to hack together free versions of virutally every major orchestral and band instrument with the basic articulations and there is a thriving freebie movement from talented people who aren't me going on. No one can ever claim they have to steal to make music. There are free DAWs, free instruments, free effects. You own a reasonable laptop, you can make music free and legal.

So NI's policies and my own mix of interest in piracy and guilt are responsible for bigcat instruments. Blame NI.

My theory is turn on the light instead of cursing the darkness.


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## novaburst (May 22, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> because not everyone things or will ever think like you do.



every one has there own mind at the end of the day millions have ilok and millions have dongles so it cant be just me and my thinking there is a unified force that says yes to dongles and no to theft........... get real

You can disagree or agree some follow common sense, some don't give a dam, some do it for the greater good some don't care unless they are effected by criminals you know ......im alright jack it ant effecting me.

share your thoughts and I will disagree or agree free speech dude.

But don't expect me to agree against my own conscience, you do have one don't you, you know that feeling that tells you what wrong or right.


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## EvilDragon (May 22, 2017)

I wouldn't say exactly millions, ours is not that huge of an industry.


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## Karsten Vogt (May 22, 2017)

Those iLok-users have no choice. If they were able to choose between iLok and non-iLok, guess what would be the outcome? Software-iLok is still iLok.


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## jononotbono (May 22, 2017)

I don't personally care about having to use iLoks or Elicensers. Hell, I'd even wear a chastity belt if it meant everything worked and all I ever had to worry about was just the music.


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## bigcat1969 (May 22, 2017)

But imagine your chastity belt had an unlockable lock and a builtin motor administered from a thousand miles away to tighten or loosen it as punishment. Imagine if the sensors on your belt could lock the belt in maximum tight position if the sensors saw something suspicious and customer support might take days to get back with you and might charge you a 'loosening' fee. Still willing?


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## novaburst (May 22, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> I wouldn't say exactly millions, ours is not that huge of an industry.


Yer that number is pretty huge haha, I will just say thousands, keep it a bit more moderate.


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## Jaap (May 22, 2017)

I never cared about any type of dongles as well (though I wish we wouldn't have that many different ones and better failure protection services without having to pay a lot extra, but that as a sideroad). The dongle stuff itself seems fine to me. Feels a bit like using a key to lock down your door and we all got used to that as well. Is is the ultimate solution? No idea, but having read a few of David Healey's points of view I really applaude him for his insight and wisdom on this matter (as well goes for Evildragon and Karsten). I notice that automatically I also tend to take the sentimental road that it is bad and should be punished etc etc, but reality is harsh and it is good to take a look at a wider spectrum to find a workaround in all this.


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## jononotbono (May 22, 2017)

bigcat1969 said:


> But imagine your chastity belt had an unlockable lock and a builtin motor administered from a thousand miles away to tighten or loosen it as punishment. Imagine if the sensors on your belt could lock the belt in maximum tight position if the sensors saw something suspicious and customer support might take days to get back with you and might charge you a 'loosening' fee. Still willing?



Well there is nothing suspicious on my computer. I have nothing to hide. So I just don't understand why suddenly iLok would tighten my belt (ok, enough of that analogy - haha - It might get weird) and "punish" me. Why would anything bad happen when somebody hasn't done anything wrong? I'm obviously missing something here. I just want to use all the great tools I own for music. Fab Filter and Sound Toys for example. They are just wonderful plugins. I just can't imagine not using them all because of a Dongle. It's a small price to pay to access amazing tools. What is it that people hate so much about them? Just plug them in, and forget them. I could understand it if they cause havok with my set up but I don't even know they are there because they just work (for me). Just trying to understand what the big deal is with a security measure designed to stop Piracy.


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## sazema (May 22, 2017)

_"Although about 3 million computers get sold every year in China, people don't pay for the software. Someday they will, though," Gates told an audience at the University of Washington. "And as long as they're going to steal it, we want them to steal ours. They'll get sort of addicted, and then we'll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade."_

Bill Gates


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## tack (May 22, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> Fab Filter and Sound Toys for example. They are just wonderful plugins. I just can't imagine not using them all because of a Dongle.


Good news everyone! FabFilter doesn't use iLok. 



jononotbono said:


> What is it that people hate so much about them? Just plug them in, and forget them.


I think in general it's less about (im)practicality or usability and more about the philosophical objections as articulated above.


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## d.healey (May 22, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> Well there is nothing suspicious on my computer. I have nothing to hide.


Suggesting you have something to hide is how people who want to invade your privacy make you think your being unreasonable. Having control of your own computing, your data, and your privacy is not unreasonable and it is nothing to do with "hiding".



> So I just don't understand why suddenly iLok would tighten my belt (ok, enough of that analogy - haha - It might get weird) and "punish" me. Why would anything bad happen when somebody hasn't done anything wrong? I'm obviously missing something here.


One day iLok will go bust or their server will crash and your device will no longer be able to call home and send whatever data it sends to unlock your chastity belt  or the device itself will fail or Windows will issue an update that accidentally deregisters your software (didn't this happen recently?).



> I just want to use all the great tools I own for music.


Unless they are GPL or similar you don't own them.



> Fab Filter and Sound Toys for example. They are just wonderful plugins. I just can't imagine not using them all because of a Dongle. It's a small price to pay to access amazing tools.


Yep they are good - I don't know about Sound Toys but Fab Filter has definitely been pirated, no point in them using a dongle (if they do).



> What is it that people hate so much about them? Just plug them in, and forget them.


For me it's the principle of not being in control of my own computing and not knowing what information the 3rd parties are gathering from my computer - nothing to do with hiding things, but my data is my data. My dongles have always worked as expected and they're going strong after 10 years, but the issue for me is ethical not practical - and they don't stop piracy anyway.

There is no method to prevent illegal copying - this is not me just giving up it is a practical truth, illegal copying cannot be prevented. Unless the fundamental principles of how computers work changes there will always be methods for copying data and transferring it to others and simulating hardware.

The only defences against illegal copying are to either release software that people are allowed to copy, or to stop worrying about the copying. If your business can't survive because of illegal copying then you will have to change your business practice or shut up shop. If you have the ability to enforce some kind of dongle on your users then you will limit copying a little, for a little while, but you won't stop it.


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## Karsten Vogt (May 22, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> I have nothing to hide.


Actually, you do and that thing is called privacy.


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## novaburst (May 22, 2017)

d.healey said:


> One day iLok will go bust or their server will crash and your device will no longer be able to call home and send whatever data it sends to unlock



Well this has happened to ilok on a number of times, any one that had an ilok were basically squashed, it did take ilok a considerable amount of time to sort things out, when you think about it any one employed by ilok can do a whole lot of messing, risk yes, is it worth the risk yes, if we are going to live a risk free life ......wake up


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## d.healey (May 22, 2017)

novaburst said:


> Well this has happened to ilok on a number of times, any one that had an ilok were basically squashed, it did take ilok a considerable amount of time to sort things out, when you think about it any one employed by ilok can do a whole lot of messing, risk yes, is it worth the risk yes, if we are going to live a risk free life ......wake up


It's not about risk it's about putting the ability to access your tools in the hands of someone else. If your system goes down it only affects you, if theirs goes down it's a much bigger issue. They have the ability to take away the tools (accidentally or intentionally) of every individual who uses those tools, that is not a good balance of power.


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## EvilDragon (May 22, 2017)

novaburst said:


> is it worth the risk yes,



No, it's not.


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## novaburst (May 22, 2017)

Karsten Vogt said:


> Actually, you do and that thing is called privacy.



terrorism blew that word private right out the window, if you want private stay off the net, don't do emails, don't do online banking, don't do paypal, don't do windows 10, don't use your mobile phone, don't watch a flat screen TV because some one is watching what your watching all thanks to sony.......don't use your bankcard to travel. don't vote in elections don't check in and out at airports, then go get your self a time machine and travel backward in time to where there were phones and internet, I think we are talking stone age.

Yep weather you like it or not the system is going for the glass house ceiling and floors and walls where you are able to see all and all will see you. get used to it or get out of it meaning move to where there is no technology, or media informative information 

Privacy is a thing of the past and soon to become ancient.


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## d.healey (May 22, 2017)

novaburst said:


> Privacy is a thing of the past and soon to become ancient.


Well I'm not giving up that easily


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## novaburst (May 22, 2017)

d.healey said:


> Well I'm not giving up that easily


Well there is not much you can do, buy, sell, work, travel, with out given up a ton of information about your self,

You may need to settle for almost private


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## mc_deli (May 22, 2017)

Karsten Vogt said:


> It depends on laws what is being saved and how long. The problem is knowing who is behind the IP address. Imagine a family living in a house with a router and several devices. They all have the same IP address when using services outside their local network (aka internet). It's impossible to determine the person who did something illegal if no additional data is saved. Enterprise networks work the same way only with a bigger scale. Or I can pay a VPN provider: I connect to the VPN and the whole internet traffic is routed to that provider and from there to me masking my IP address. If several users use that provider's VPN server they all have the same IP address.


This seems like abdicating responsibility.
Surely the person paying for the connection has to be made responsible.
As an adult, you have to be made responsible for someone using your connection. You mean your daughter stole your car?
This is the same as Google etc. abdicating responsibility for content - we didn't do it, we're just profiting from it.
When I am supreme leader there will be a lot more regulation to make those that pay and those that profit responsible for use of data and use of technology. 
It was kind of said already, regulation is 30 years (or 200 years) behind.


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## Karsten Vogt (May 22, 2017)

Please don't forget regulation for banks and insurance companies. Oh, and arms production companies.  And while you're at it the telecommunication sector needs regulation too, e.g. companies violating net neutrality. And the energy sector here in Germany is a mess, too. Stock exchange prices drop while prices for end customers rise.

Well, there is also a tiny (very tiny though) benefit of those anonymous networks: people from police states and oppressing countries are able to use internet services. But with you as supreme leader of the world we wouldn't need those anymore.


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## NYC Composer (May 23, 2017)

Karsten Vogt said:


> Silk Road was highly illegal. So this is hard to compare especially with guns and organs (organs wtf). I'm thinking about legal ways to prevent piracy because as you said there is always a new El Chapo. And prevention doesn't come with harder punishment. Culture flatrate is a pretty good step into that direction to prevent copyright violation.
> This is about copyright violation. Not prostitution and organ harvesting. Please don't derail this thread.


It's not about chopping off hands either. Please don't derail this thread. Your statements are no more or less valid than mine. Have some respect.


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## timprebble (May 23, 2017)

Someone asked a few pages back about what *positive* steps can be taken to reduce piracy, and one thing that I keep meaning to do but haven't is this (& yes I know it is an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff but... its better than nothing)

I refuse to leave pirated copies of my content online - while I dont spend a lot of time searching I HATE it when pirated copies of my work appears in Google searches or Twitter or Facebook feeds...

But it is such a boring use of time sending out DCMA notices... Hours can easily be consumed, but each time someone shares content I do take the time to send DCMA Notices to the site posting the content... And to the 'link monetizing' sites like peeplink.... And to each of the file hosting sites... And the content gets taken down within 24-48 hours... Only once have I had to go to someones ISP and send them a DCMA...

Once I find the correct address to send the DCMA Notice in each case I make a note of it, and next time do not need to go hunting for it.....
So I have a list of maybe 30+ addresses for DCMA Notices - all the usual suspects

It got me thinking, the DCMA process could be 90% automated....
it would be feasible to build a FileMaker Database or an app which already has the following info in it:
- a standard DCMA Take Down notice form (mine is stored in TextExpander)
- the abuse/DCMA email address of each file sharing site (updated as new ones are used)
- a list of my products & links to those products

So when I see pirated content, all I would have to do is grab a copy of each link,
send it to the database or app

The database would find the associated address to send the DCMA Notice,
it would also find the associated link to my legitimate content/ip,
it would populate all the required fields of the DCMA Notice
& then it would either directly send or output an email to be sent

It could make a time consuming & very boring process into something a little less painful...
Will I ever make it? Maybe
Would I donate some $ towards someone more skilled than me building it for collective use?
Hell yes!


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## tcollins (May 23, 2017)

DMCA is actually a powerful tool. It's the only thing we have, and it can be effective. You can use a takedown service to keep things under control. What if we all did this? Make them spend every waking hour deleting files and links, in fear of disappearing from the search engines and fading into oblivion. At some point, it wouldn't be worth it to host a pirate site.


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## timprebble (May 23, 2017)

exactly! As I understand it if the site does not respond & act on a DCMA Notice within 48 hours they forfeit the 'safe harbour' aspect as a legal defence ie they cannot plead ignorance or 'we didnt know" etc... 

Also FWIW many of the sites have RSS feeds of their pirated content - I subscribe to a few that had my libraries on them, as I figure if I DCMA them as soon as they appear then many people who use those sites wont get a chance to download them.... especially bigger libraries eg 20GB+ (its no help with private sites or torrent sites, but public sharing of pirated content is appalling as it eventually appears in Google searches etc)


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## d.healey (May 24, 2017)

timprebble said:


> It got me thinking, the DCMA process could be 90% automated....
> it would be feasible to build a FileMaker Database or an app which already has the following info in it:
> - a standard DCMA Take Down notice form (mine is stored in TextExpander)
> - the abuse/DCMA email address of each file sharing site (updated as new ones are used)
> - a list of my products & links to those products


That's a cool idea, as you've realised it won't prevent piracy but it will make the life of those who run public websites that infringe copyright less enjoyable. This could be put together in PHP fairly quickly actually. I might try and knock something together when I have a bit of spare time


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## d.healey (May 24, 2017)

timprebble said:


> exactly! As I understand it if the site does not respond & act on a DCMA Notice within 48 hours they forfeit the 'safe harbour' aspect as a legal defence ie they cannot plead ignorance or 'we didnt know" etc..


So I had a few hours this morning to play with PHP - it's been a while! Here's a video demonstrating what I came up with, it's rough around the edges but should do the job.



Update:
The source code is now on GitHub (GPL of course) - https://github.com/davidhealey/DAN


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## ccarreira (May 24, 2017)

I think the solution is an embebed audio watermark with the name of the product, libraries distribution should be free and widespread, then, commercial use should pay royalties. Game engines Unreal and Unity use this policy. New times need new business models.


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## d.healey (May 24, 2017)

ccarreira said:


> I think the solution is an embebed audio watermark with the name of the product, libraries distribution should be free and widespread, then, commercial use should pay royalties. Game engines Unreal and Unity use this policy. New times need new business models.


This has been tried. First problem is you have to watermark each sample uniquely for each customer, there are services to do this and they are pricey, it is not an easy thing to do - especially if the samples are in a compressed format like NCW. Second problem is watermarks are not that difficult to mask or remove. Third problem is if the library is bought with a stolen card or with other fake details the watermark is invalid. Fourth problem is if you manage to watermark a library, sell it to a genuine customer who doesn't remove/mask the watermark and then uploads the library and you manage to work out who it is, you still have to pay all of the costs and expenses and time to bring a case against them at the end of which (as demonstrated by the Cinesamples case linked earlier in the thread) you are unlikely to get anything even if you win.


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## ccarreira (May 24, 2017)

d.healey said:


> This has been tried. First problem is you have to watermark each sample uniquely for each customer, there are services to do this and they are pricey, it is not an easy thing to do - especially if the samples are in a compressed format like NCW. Second problem is watermarks are not that difficult to mask or remove. Third problem is if the library is bought with a stolen card or with other fake details the watermark is invalid. Fourth problem is if you manage to watermark a library, sell it to a genuine customer who doesn't remove/mask the watermark and then uploads the library and you manage to work out who it is, you still have to pay all of the costs and expenses and time to bring a case against them at the end of which (as demonstrated by the Cinesamples case linked earlier in the thread) you are unlikely to get anything even if you win.



This ideal watermark would be very strong with the *name of the product*, in this case the library is distributed free, by its own makers and IP owners. Also, each library would have its own sonic DNA, kind of . So you distribute for free, get royalties on use. its just an idea.


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## ccarreira (May 24, 2017)

Forget pirates, Forget people that use it and dont make money with it, is it an hobby, ok, is it at a small bar? ok, company internal use? ok

You need to identify the use of your product in Movies, tv, radio, videogames, websites, there are very strong distribution channels here, this is where the big money is, the royalties colected here should be more than enough to cover the expenses, develop new products, grow and be happy.


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## d.healey (May 24, 2017)

ccarreira said:


> You need to identify the use of your product in Movies, tv, radio, videogames, websites, there are very strong distribution channels here, this is where the big money is, the royalties colected here should be more than enough to cover the expenses, develop new products, grow and be happy.


Charging royalties for the use of sample libraries in music is not a feasible idea, it would be impossible to track usage. You can't really charge royalties for the tools used to make a product, that would be like charging a writer for using a pencil. Also I think the majority of composers are hobbyists so forgetting about them would be bad for business and unfair to them.


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## d.healey (May 24, 2017)

You could always release under two licenses, one that doesn't allow commercial use and one that does. The GPL wouldn't be any good for this unfortunately but it would have a similar effect on piracy.


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## ComposerWannabe (May 24, 2017)

d.healey said:


> Charging royalties for the use of sample libraries in music is not a feasible idea, it would be impossible to track usage. You can't really charge royalties for the tools used to make a product, that would be like charging a writer for using a pencil. Also I think the majority of composers are hobbyists so forgetting about them would be bad for business and unfair to them.



Why do libraries doesn't have hidden audio in them like a watermark? Wouldn't that make it possible to track it's usage? Plus why would it be considered as a pencil since there is a some sense of sound design involved i.e every library having a sound of it's own?


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## EvilDragon (May 24, 2017)

ComposerWannabe said:


> Why do libraries doesn't have hidden audio in them like a watermark? Wouldn't that make it possible to track it's usage?



Nope. As soon as you compress the bejeezus out of it and deteriorate it into MP3 or whatever, it's gonna be lost. There is no perfect audio watermark, no matter whoever might claim it.


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## ComposerWannabe (May 24, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> Nope. As soon as you compress the bejeezus out of it and deteriorate it into MP3 or whatever, it's gonna be lost. There is no perfect audio watermark, no matter whoever might claim it.


Then how do you track pirates anyway -not including cyber means? I mean once they have the product they have all the freedom to use it to their advantage. That's bothering. I feel like there should be some means to limit their usage.

Can companies ask the composers of soundtracks which they think their product was used to be made whether they used their product? Like: this product sounds like mine but I don't see your name on my buyers list...

It's mind boggling how easy these guys get away. Personal use is one thing but to use the products to make actual money without any consequences is ridiculously irritating.


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## d.healey (May 24, 2017)

ComposerWannabe said:


> Can companies ask the composers of soundtracks which they think their product was used to be made whether they used their product? Like: this product sounds like mine but I don't see your name on my buyers list....


Well you can ask.... the amount of time involved to even detect libraries in enough tracks to make it worthwhile is better used doing other things.


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## ccarreira (May 24, 2017)

d.healey said:


> Well you can ask.... the amount of time involved to even detect libraries in enough tracks to make it worthwhile is better used doing other things.



Distribution channels could do the detection. Give them some little %, and they will suck every cent out of their feeds.


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## d.healey (May 24, 2017)

ccarreira said:


> Distribution channels could do the detection.


No they couldn't. My website is my distribution channel as is the case for most developers, we are already paying out enough money in fees we don't need another one. And the question exists of how will they do that? How can you possibly track who is using a sample library in a track and whether or not that track is being used commercially, in what contexts, in what countries, it is a logistical impossibility.


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## ccarreira (May 24, 2017)

well, I know my idea is scifi, but there is the need of new business models, new tech and new laws. On the web you can ask Google to do that, Amazon, itunes, spotify, netflix, Steam. etc etc, they need to be part of this new model. write some new laws, give them some % and they will do all the math for you. Again this is scifi.


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## Andrew Aversa (May 24, 2017)

The problem is that there is not enough money in tackling the problem. The absolute biggest music software companies like Native Instruments are worth <$1b... that's practically a rounding error to a company like Google. It's just not a big industry. When you cut it down to JUST sample libraries it's even smaller. So we do the best we can with what we've got. Our (ISW's) approach is working with a DMCA service targeted at file lockers, torrent aggregators, etc. to get rid of low hanging fruit. That, and good pricing, good products, good service.


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## Alatar (May 24, 2017)

d.healey said:


> So I had a few hours this morning to play with PHP - it's been a while! Here's a video demonstrating what I came up with, it's rough around the edges but should do the job.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks for making the effort! Looks very useful.


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## timprebble (May 24, 2017)

d.healey said:


> So I had a few hours this morning to play with PHP - it's been a while! Here's a video demonstrating what I came up with, it's rough around the edges but should do the job.
> Update:
> The source code is now on GitHub (GPL of course) - https://github.com/davidhealey/DAN




Great, thank you David!
(bought your harp as a vote of thanks... and i love harps 

One question - when submitting DCMA Notices I always paste the link to the actual page/location on their site, rather than just the name of their domain... It makes less work for them which is not necessarily a good thing, but just wondered if it impacts on them acting? You just use their primary domain & still get results ok?


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## d.healey (May 24, 2017)

timprebble said:


> Great, thank you David!
> (bought your harp as a vote of thanks... and i love harps
> 
> One question - when submitting DCMA Notices I always paste the link to the actual page/location on their site, rather than just the name of their domain... It makes less work for them which is not necessarily a good thing, but just wondered if it impacts on them acting? You just use their primary domain & still get results ok?


Thanks! Hope you enjoy it 

Yeah I usually give a direct link too but I can't see a way to do that in an automated system because we'd have to add a link for each product's URL on each site, which once you've had it taken down will become redundant but it may pop up again on the same site with a different link.


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## timprebble (May 24, 2017)

I guess I was thinking it could be based on a search function
eg if the direct link is to www.AHOLES.com/myproduct
& I paste or import that link to the DCMA Engine,
it then finds AHOLES.com in its list of known abusers
and uses both the direct link and its associated DCMA/Abuse email address in the DCMA Notice...

Maybe for v2 if needed...
I'll do some A/B testing next time it happens for me


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## mouse (May 25, 2017)

https://link-busters.com (looks like they're used by a number of music software companies too)


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## SoNowWhat? (May 28, 2017)

timprebble said:


> I guess I was thinking it could be based on a search function
> eg if the direct link is to www.AHOLES.com/myproduct
> & I paste or import that link to the DCMA Engine,
> it then finds AHOLES.com in its list of known abusers
> ...


Can't believe I clicked on that link 

This is quite an interesting discussion.


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## MichaelB (May 27, 2018)

The latest technology used by banks in many parts of the worl for ATM’s , now used by some hotel groups as well and also used by the Taiwan government for passport control identification at the airport is biometric fingerprinting. The machine reads not only your fingerprint but also a mapping of the veins in your finger. This technology is still quiet expensive, but normal fingerprinting technology and USB fingerprint peripherals are now getting very affordable and might be a good idea to be used with software distrubution together with a user account and passwords. 

I used to be a programmer many years ago and another cost effective alternative that I think might work is to use a limited time valid license (say 1 year) after which the user must request another unique password from the software developer to activate the software for the next period and provide the neccessary information to the software developer for verification, and failure to do so will render the software unusable. 

My SSD that I use also requires a login and password and the manufacturer warns you when you use the disc the first time if you loose / forget your password and login name the disk will remain locked and can’t be used ever again and the manufacturer can’t help you or replace your disk and they take no responsibility for loss of data. The onus is on you to write down your password or throw away the disk if you’ve lost / forgotten your password. Perhaps this kind of method could also work and it’s very cost effective.


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## d.healey (May 27, 2018)

MichaelB said:


> This technology is still quiet expensive, but normal fingerprinting technology and USB fingerprint peripherals are now getting very affordable and might be a good idea to be used with software distrubution together with a user account and passwords..


This is no different to any other dongle and can be cracked in the same way.


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## fiestared (May 27, 2018)

MichaelB said:


> The latest technology used by banks in many parts of the worl for ATM’s , now used by some hotel groups as well and also used by the Taiwan government for passport control identification at the airport is biometric fingerprinting. The machine reads not only your fingerprint but also a mapping of the veins in your finger. This technology is still quiet expensive, but normal fingerprinting technology and USB fingerprint peripherals are now getting very affordable and might be a good idea to be used with software distrubution together with a user account and passwords.
> 
> I used to be a programmer many years ago and another cost effective alternative that I think might work is to use a limited time valid license (say 1 year) after which the user must request another unique password from the software developer to activate the software for the next period and provide the neccessary information to the software developer for verification, and failure to do so will render the software unusable.
> 
> My SSD that I use also requires a login and password and the manufacturer warns you when you use the disc the first time if you loose / forget your password and login name the disk will remain locked and can’t be used ever again and the manufacturer can’t help you or replace your disk and they take no responsibility for loss of data. The onus is on you to write down your password or throw away the disk if you’ve lost / forgotten your password. Perhaps this kind of method could also work and it’s very cost effective.


Hi,
All these ideas are good, but, as a user i'm VERY tired of my thousands passwords and identification process all the time everywhere, I probably have to "remember" at least 1000 password everyday, of course I can't, so I use a "software helper" for that. Don't you think too much protection will kill the protection ? I have an iPad, and Apple forces me to update the os, even if I don't want, so by mistake I did, and now I can't use my iPad anymore, because I can't remember one of my thousands passwords to "re" configure it, and of course my "software helper" is... in my iPad ! 
My user's opinion...


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## Erick - BVA (May 27, 2018)

Even the small, cheap libraries I've helped create are getting pirated. It's a disgrace. The most common argument I've heard is "it's digital so it's not real and has no value." My response --and I think is an obvious point-- "if it has no value, why are you pirating it?" The demand for it proves its value. Also, the idea that it's not real is stupid. Then I suppose your pirating is a figment of the imagination?


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## aaronventure (May 27, 2018)

d.healey said:


> This is no different to any other dongle and can be cracked in the same way.


Yep. All software can be cracked (most of it is). Just look at games trying to fight piracy (although the Steam is doing a good job by existing). They're implementing "unbreakable" solutions which price at 6 figures and create additional CPU hit, only to have some 19-year-old kid with a laptop crack it a month later.



ComposerWannabe said:


> Then how do you track pirates anyway -not including cyber means? I mean once they have the product they have all the freedom to use it to their advantage. That's bothering. I feel like there should be some means to limit their usage.
> 
> Can companies ask the composers of soundtracks which they think their product was used to be made whether they used their product? Like: this product sounds like mine but I don't see your name on my buyers list...



This is all assuming that they made the mockups themselves. You can always claim you had it commissioned.


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## RiffWraith (May 27, 2018)

MichaelB said:


> another cost effective alternative that I think might work is to use a limited time valid license (say 1 year) after which the user must request another unique password from the software developer to activate the software for the next period and provide the neccessary information to the software developer for verification, and failure to do so will render the software unusable.



And what happens if the dev stops doing business? Not all devs are in business forever.

Cheers.


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## d.healey (May 27, 2018)

I know I've said this before but there is no way to prevent copyright infringement without being extremely harmful to your customers. The best thing to do is put your time and energy into creating great products which people will buy and provide good customer support which isn't available to those who acquired your software illegally.


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## kitekrazy (May 27, 2018)

d.healey said:


> I know I've said this before but there is no way to prevent copyright infringement without being extremely harmful to your customers. The best thing to do is put your time and energy into creating great products which people will buy and provide good customer support which isn't available to those who acquired your software illegally.



I've come across posts on the Image Line forum where many turned to licensed users because of the above. It is probably the most pirated DAW since there is a friendly activation process. They are not going to change it. They also have a large user base who also report piracy. They will come after you.


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## kitekrazy (May 27, 2018)

MichaelB said:


> The latest technology used by banks in many parts of the worl for ATM’s , now used by some hotel groups as well and also used by the Taiwan government for passport control identification at the airport is biometric fingerprinting. The machine reads not only your fingerprint but also a mapping of the veins in your finger. This technology is still quiet expensive, but normal fingerprinting technology and USB fingerprint peripherals are now getting very affordable and might be a good idea to be used with software distrubution together with a user account and passwords.
> 
> I used to be a programmer many years ago and another cost effective alternative that I think might work is to use a limited time valid license (say 1 year) after which the user must request another unique password from the software developer to activate the software for the next period and provide the neccessary information to the software developer for verification, and failure to do so will render the software unusable.
> 
> My SSD that I use also requires a login and password and the manufacturer warns you when you use the disc the first time if you loose / forget your password and login name the disk will remain locked and can’t be used ever again and the manufacturer can’t help you or replace your disk and they take no responsibility for loss of data. The onus is on you to write down your password or throw away the disk if you’ve lost / forgotten your password. Perhaps this kind of method could also work and it’s very cost effective.



It would jump to a competing developer in a heartbeat instead of that awkwardness. A competing developer would use that method in marketing to get new users.


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## d.healey (May 27, 2018)

kitekrazy said:


> I've come across posts on the Image Line forum where many turned to licensed users because of the above. It is probably the most pirated DAW since there is a friendly activation process. They are not going to change it. They also have a large user base who also report piracy. They will come after you.


Well anybody can ask anything on a public forum. I'm talking about a proper ticketed support system that customers can use to talk to the developers directly to get assistance. Although you can also have a private forum that is only for paying customers.


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## kitekrazy (May 27, 2018)

d.healey said:


> Well anybody can ask anything on a public forum. I'm talking about a proper ticketed support system that customers can use to talk to the developers directly to get assistance. Although you can also have a private forum that is only for paying customers.



Image Line does all of this.


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## d.healey (May 27, 2018)

kitekrazy said:


> Image Line does all of this.


And they're still in business


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## Kejero (May 28, 2018)

RiffWraith said:


> And what happens if the dev stops doing business? Not all devs are in business forever.
> At that point the dev could unlock the licenses so they remain valid forever...
> Cheers.


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## alanb (May 28, 2018)

Kejero said:


> At that point the dev could unlock the licenses so they remain valid forever...



Yeah, just like TASCAM did for GigaStudio, GVI, and GigaPulse . . . . .  

Don't ever %[email protected]#!^ count on anything like that happening..................................


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## tcollins (Jun 3, 2018)

In my experience, a DMCA service is a necessity. As well as helping us to stay in business, it shows respect for our customers who have supported us by paying for our libraries. Without it, a dev's actual website can be relegated to the 3rd or 4th page of results in a search for one of their products- after the pirate links! That's what happened to us a few years ago. Besides, if I can make a pirate's day a little worse, I'm all in.


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## Mike Greene (Jun 3, 2018)

tcollins said:


> Besides, if I can make a pirate's day a little worse, I'm all in.


When the Ladies was first pirated, I had my DMCA service only send takedown notices for the even-numbered rar links. That way the downloaders would download rar1 and rar3 and figure everything is cool, and there's just a minor bug or something with rar2.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 4, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> When the Ladies was first pirated, I had my DMCA service only send takedown notices for the even-numbered rar links. That way the downloaders would download rar1 and rar3 and figure everything is cool, and there's just a minor bug or something with rar2.


I WONDERED what the heck was going on!


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## bigcat1969 (Jun 5, 2018)

Just had to say brilliant, Mr. Greene, to me.

As I've said before even my stuff gets pirated. This makes me laugh especially when some folk point out that the pirate is offering unprotected freeware as a wonderful 'crack'. Then the pirate has to defend themselves that it is really hard to click on a free link or something. It is all admass, complete admass


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