# :)



## choc0thrax (Feb 25, 2007)

And the Oscar goes to everyones favourite: Babel!!!!!


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## choc0thrax (Feb 25, 2007)

So so far Danny Elfman has zero Oscars and this Gustavo guy with his headache inducing crap has two...


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## Alex W (Feb 25, 2007)

Yeah it's all just a big political wank... doesn't mean shit to me.


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## midphase (Feb 26, 2007)

Who votes for this category???? I thought it was other composers who are academy members!

WTF???? Are those other composers (who I'm sure include Williams, Zimmer, Broughton, Howard, etc) out of their f-ing minds??? 

Gustavo wrote the Babel score by fiddling on his middle-eastern stringed instrument and holding down a note in Atmosphere over a week-end. He didn't even bother to score to picture!

That's it....I'm not watching the Oscars ever again....this is even worse than when Bush got re-elected!


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## lux (Feb 26, 2007)

i'm afraid i cant stand holding my finger a note for an entire weekend. This could cause me to never win an oscar..


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## Waywyn (Feb 26, 2007)

I am assuming more and more that if the movie itself is good the soundtrack or music will also be hyped. (I didn't see Babel, but I guess it is a good film).

You see that also in "little things" like computer games. If the game is good the music will be hyped like hell. If it's a low budget title and receives something like 37% it could have the most inspiring classical score ever, it would also get only 32-40% ...

really sad!


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## Aaron Sapp (Feb 26, 2007)

Yea, the Academy Awards is a joke - didn't even bother watching it this time around. Listened to a bit of 'Babel'... *sigh*

Also "Pans Labyrinth" beat out "Children of Men" in cinematography? What a load of shite.


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## spectrum (Feb 26, 2007)

Definitely agreed that the best score and best song awards were ridiculous and purely political.....BUT....

The Ennio Morricone special Oscar tribute was a really, really cool moment....woudn't you agree? 

...even if Clint Eastwood did call him a "Scorer"! :roll: 

Shows you how much the Academy knows about the art if they can't even properly say "Film Composer". :lol: 

At least they finally recognized a composer for a special award....that's pretty rare actually. (and they couldn't have picked a more deserving candidate for his immense contribution to the art.)


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## spectrum (Feb 26, 2007)

midphase @ Mon Feb 26 said:


> Who votes for this category???? I thought it was other composers who are academy members!



I've heard that before too, but it's just impossible that film composers would vote for that score over the others. I've thought that for many years in past shows too.

Like the year when Hans Zimmer was nominated for the Preacher's Wife score, when it only had about 10 minutes of standard underscore and the rest was Whitney Houston gospel tunes that he wasn't involved in.

There's lots of other examples too.

It must be that it's everyone in the academy voting on those categories too....not just the people in the field.


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## spectrum (Feb 26, 2007)

choc0thrax @ Sun Feb 25 said:


> So so far Danny Elfman has zero Oscars and this Gustavo guy with his headache inducing crap has two...



Yeah, but someday Danny will probably get a special award like Ennio Morricone got, and it will mean more.


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## spectrum (Feb 26, 2007)

Here's why I think Babel won for music:

1. It was definitely effective for that film
2. The score was exposed for very long periods of time with minimal dialog or sound FX. It was also mixed fairly loud compared to most other movies.
3. The film had few songs to compete with the attention of the score
4. It was different than a typical orchestral score
5. The music had a very intimate and personal quality, which worked well with stringing the different story lines together.
6. The academy is a sucker for simple, guitarish melody-based scores
7. In the past several years, the academy lately seems to like the "exotic-ness" of awarding International composers, rather than the "typical A-list" guys that everyone knows (Elfman, Zimmer, JNH, Horner, Newman, Isham, etc).
8. Because the Academy remembers that he scored Brokeback Mountain, and many felt that it should have won Best Picture last year.

Not saying that I think Babel's score should have won mind you.... 

On the other hand, I think it's also very likely that he'll never be nominated or win an Oscar again, even if he produced an incredible score for a great film.


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## spectrum (Feb 26, 2007)

choc0thrax @ Sun Feb 25 said:


> So so far Danny Elfman has zero Oscars and this Gustavo guy with his headache inducing crap has two...



Thomas Newman doesn't have one either.

and JNH doesn't have one either....right?


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## Waywyn (Feb 26, 2007)

Ha, just saw that germany won an oscar too.
... but what do the germans what they can do best?
Whining about the past, doing Stasi and WW2 stuff :-/

Also I am happy for Scorsese. Being there for 17623 years and never won an oscar. He did some great films, so I really enjoy seeing him winning 4 oscars.


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## Hermitage59 (Feb 26, 2007)

Aaron Sapp @ Mon Feb 26 said:


> Yea, the Academy Awards is a joke - didn't even bother watching it this time around. Listened to a bit of 'Babel'... *sigh*
> 
> Also "Pans Labyrinth" beat out "Children of Men" in cinematography? What a load of shite.



Yep, I'd have to agree with this, Aaron. COM was a compelling film visually, more so (IMHO) than Pan's Labryinth. (I thought Black Dahlia was pretty good too.)
There's been some weird winners in the past in many categories, but i do wonder why this year seems to be weirder than others.

Eric, i enjoyed the Morricone moment too. I wonder when they'll do a little tribute to Miklos Rosza, or Hermann.

On a lighter note, i'll bet Al gore's pleased. This has probably done more for his political career tha all the money he poured in. 

I would have given best director to Clint Eastwood as well, for letters to Iwo Jima. 
But then i preffered George Clooney's Good Night and Good Luck last time, so what do i know?


Alex.


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## blue (Feb 26, 2007)

spectrum @ Mon Feb 26 said:


> Thomas Newman doesn't have one either.



Yes, and that is a shame. Should have won for American Beauty and Shawshank at least.


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## Scott Cairns (Feb 26, 2007)

Alex W @ Mon Feb 26 said:


> Yeah it's all just a big political wank... doesn't mean [email protected]#t to me.


 It would if you were nominated.  




Waywyn @ Mon Feb 26 said:


> You see that also in "little things" like computer games. If the game is good the music will be hyped like hell. If it's a low budget title and receives something like 37% it could have the most inspiring classical score ever, it would also get only 32-40% ...



I remember when U2 were at the height of their fame, Adam Clayton got voted the best bass player in the world in some sort of awards. :roll:


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## Waywyn (Feb 26, 2007)

Scott Cairns @ Mon Feb 26 said:


> I remember when U2 were at the height of their fame, Adam Clayton got voted the best bass player in the world in some sort of awards. :roll:



Haha, yes, that also reminds of that one year when Eric Clapton was voted for best guitar player in the world. I mean his music is cool, he plays a great guitar and I definitely do not think that dexterity and speed has something to do with "good", but hey, it's not like it's guitar playing is fascinating.

Sorry for OT but this came to my mind right now.


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## choc0thrax (Feb 26, 2007)

Waywyn @ Mon Feb 26 said:


> I am assuming more and more that if the movie itself is good the soundtrack or music will also be hyped. (I didn't see Babel, but I guess it is a good film).
> 
> You see that also in "little things" like computer games. If the game is good the music will be hyped like hell. If it's a low budget title and receives something like 37% it could have the most inspiring classical score ever, it would also get only 32-40% ...
> 
> really sad!



Babel is not a good film.


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## Alex W (Feb 26, 2007)

Scott Cairns @ Mon Feb 26 said:


> Alex W @ Mon Feb 26 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah it's all just a big political wank... doesn't mean [email protected]#t to me.
> ...



You're right... If I won an oscar I could sell it and get some high price hookers.


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## Brian Ralston (Feb 26, 2007)

midphase @ Mon Feb 26 said:


> Who votes for this category???? I thought it was other composers who are academy members!
> 
> WTF???? Are those other composers (who I'm sure include Williams, Zimmer, Broughton, Howard, etc) out of their f-ing minds???



The nominees are decided upon by only members of that branch. In this case...the music branch...which consists mostly of previous winners and/or nominees. 

The actual oscar out of those 5 nominees though is voted upon by the entire academy membership whether they are music people or not.


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## Brian Ralston (Feb 26, 2007)

Alex W @ Mon Feb 26 said:


> Scott Cairns @ Mon Feb 26 said:
> 
> 
> > Alex W @ Mon Feb 26 said:
> ...



actually...everyone who wins an Oscar has to sign a binding contract that if you ever do not want the oscar statue at any time throughout the rest of your life...you have to sell it back to the Academy for $1. This was done many years ago when some very early Oscar statues were starting to show up on e-bay and is intended to insure that the statues remain exclusive and hard to get. 

:wink:


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## handz (Feb 26, 2007)

OK this year OSCAR became real parody. Sad parody. (o)


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## Niah (Feb 26, 2007)

Well Babel is the second greatest film I saw in 2006, the first being Children of Men, so I really think that it should have won.

I also believe that Martin deserved to win the award along time ago, but not for this film the departed. We are talking about a remake from a 2002 asian film for christ sake.

Also I think gustavo is a great musician/composer, oddly enough he has been awarded IMHO not for his finest work. Amorres Perros and 21 grams were definately better and he was not even nominated for them as I can recall.

But it is all a stage act, everyone already knew that Martin was going to win so they invited spielberg francis and lucas to present the award. and since babel was not going to win they gave the award to gustavo. this happens year after year after year...


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## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 26, 2007)

One more thought: when scoring for film, it's not about the score on its own but about how well the music supports the picture, how it fuses the 2 media into something greater than the two parts. Sometimes the music & the picture disolve and turn into a great piece of story telling. 
You may achieve this as a "scorer" even if you can't do John Williams and that may be enough to be considered for an oscar (I haven't seen Babel but heard that it was a cool flick)


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## Stephanie Pray (Feb 26, 2007)

Alex W @ Mon Feb 26 said:


> Scott Cairns @ Mon Feb 26 said:
> 
> 
> > Alex W @ Mon Feb 26 said:
> ...



Trust me, if you won an Oscar, you wouldn't need to hire high priced hookers...the women would be all over you :wink:


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## Scott Cairns (Feb 26, 2007)

Patrick de Caumette @ Tue Feb 27 said:


> One more thought: when scoring for film, it's not about the score on its own but about how well the music supports the picture, how it fuses the 2 media into something greater than the two parts.



I couldnt agree more Pat. I think thats what irks me when people bash Hans Zimmer, he HAS an absolute knack to marry music to picture, pure and simple. If he didnt, he would never have scored over 100 flicks.

Now he may not be someone's cup of tea, or you may not enjoy his music in isolation (I do) but the truth is, he is a first rate *film* composer.


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## kid-surf (Feb 27, 2007)

Imagine if all of us were ripping on you for scoring your mutha' fluking film. You know, showing up and doing your job. :D

Ahh, we're all so critical... I love it! :mrgreen:


BTW -- no one here will like my film. I promise! o-[][]-o 

Although, Choc0 will love it... I promise.

Please vote for me!!! 

Thank you...


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## Alex W (Feb 27, 2007)

moviemaestro @ Tue Feb 27 said:


> Alex W @ Mon Feb 26 said:
> 
> 
> > Scott Cairns @ Mon Feb 26 said:
> ...



I'd still do it out of spite


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## drasticmeasures (Feb 27, 2007)

Ringing Bros and Barnum and Baily present
The Acadamy Awards


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 27, 2007)

The best score I heard this year (quiet down, Choc) was Philip Glass' score for "The Illusionist." Actually that might have been the best film too.

Also, it's worth pointing out that it's not just the best score category that doesn't usually make any sense. Tom Hanks is a pretty good actor, for example, but is he better than Anthony Hopkins? Yet he's won the Oscar over him before.

It's the role that gets the award, and in a way scores are the same.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 27, 2007)

I thought Glass score was great too.
It actually made the movie IMHO.
What's up with Norton? I think the guy is a great actor but he had kindda disappeared for a while and in The Illusionist he looked totally stoned. (o) 
It didn't feel that he was 100% there...


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## José Herring (Feb 27, 2007)

Yeah. I've noticed it a bit too. Looks like he's on Heroin or something. I mean he's no Robert Downey, jr but it does look like he's addicted to something. Really too bad in a sense.


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## choc0thrax (Feb 27, 2007)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Feb 27 said:


> The best score I heard this year (quiet down, Choc) was Philip Glass' score for "The Illusionist." Actually that might have been the best film too.
> 
> Also, it's worth pointing out that it's not just the best score category that doesn't usually make any sense. Tom Hanks is a pretty good actor, for example, but is he better than Anthony Hopkins? Yet he's won the Oscar over him before.
> 
> It's the role that gets the award, and in a way scores are the same.



Crappy score and boring movie. Best film i've seen this year is Pan's Labyrinth.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 27, 2007)

josejherring @ Tue Feb 27 said:


> Yeah. I've noticed it a bit too. Looks like he's on Heroin or something. I mean he's no Robert Downey, jr but it does look like he's addicted to something. Really too bad in a sense.



My thought exactly.

Shame, the guy's really talented :|


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## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 27, 2007)

choc0thrax @ Tue Feb 27 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Feb 27 said:
> 
> 
> > The best score I heard this year (quiet down, Choc) was Philip Glass' score for "The Illusionist." Actually that might have been the best film too.
> ...



For once, I agree with your assessment of a movie (I usually don't care for pop corn) 
I thought the score was great...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 27, 2007)

Pearls before swine, Choc.

o-[][]-o


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## kid-surf (Feb 27, 2007)

BTW -- 

I look at the awards as a way for us all to keep this industry exciting. True, the awards are meaningless in a sense. If you won would you think you're better than the next dude. Doubtful. Doubtful any composer feels that way. Actors? That's a different story. 

But most people know they are not better, they do appreciate the award but they know it's like "Yay, we think green is better than yellow... and next year it will be the opposite." Nonsense in the scope of life. But not in the scope of Hollywood. 

In fact, the whole opening to the show was a bit too "insider" IMO. I sat thinking "hardly anyone in the viewing public will know who any of these people are, why don't you have their names and occupations up". 

But it does [Oscars] help keep us all employed. It's a necessary function of the entertainment business. The Oscars help sell movies to the public... the Oscars help keep this occupation alive.

Lastly -- The "film" is 100% more important than the score. I recently was able to think about the film first. First time I'd been able to see film music through the eyes of someone thinking about the film first. Pretty interesting how much less significant it became. 

If a film is good and the score fits the film what more can you ask for? I mean really, I don't want to hear some show off composer wanking away under a scene that simply is being ruined because the dudes ego needs a stroking. I'd much rather the film just be good. Good films come in many different flavors, but I do often wonder if composers only like films with big epic style music. For me those are the films I'm not interested in seeing, or doing. For me they feel gratuitous. (but hey, different strokes right) o-[][]-o 

*Maybe try this for fun (or for real) --* Think about what type of film you would write and direct for you to also score. How do you prioritize the music at that point.


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## kid-surf (Feb 27, 2007)

And here's my response....

I'm am equally opinionated about what "works".


Yes, JW's music _worked_ for Star Wars, I don't need to imagine it with different music. In fact, that is the most stale and tired film analogy I can think of. At this point I doubt i'll ever watch Star Wars again. It is definitely not my favorite movie (that idea is silly anyway--I don't have one), but it was when I was 9. 

If music is your religion and you need your ego stroked I strongly suggest you DO NOT EVER score a film. Frankly composers with your point of view are what I can't stand about film scoring. (please don't take offense - they don't like me either). But to go to the theater to "listen"? What a waste of your time. Why don't you save yourself the effort and head to the symphony. You want EPIC, there you go, no pesky "film" to get in the way of the music.

No, a good film does not need 'beautiful' music. (God, that statement pulls vomit into the back of my throat). No, a good film requires that the music WORKS with the GOOD film. Period. No more, no less.

Please don't be so confused as to believe your music is more important than the friggn film it is there to "support". As if...

*"At the end of the day, how many people on Earth will be able to hum the Babel 'main theme' in a years time? (I haven't seen the film - it might not have anything that constitutes to a theme, or even a short motif) Now how many people can hum the star wars theme?" *

I'm sorry but that is the most ridiculous thing I've read since I've joined this site. It is astounding to me that you can type that with a straight face...

Otherwise . Have a good day. :D

Cheers, o-[][]-o


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## choc0thrax (Feb 27, 2007)

As much as I hate Gustavo's music I have to say Kid is right. 8)


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## Aaron Sapp (Feb 27, 2007)

kid-surf @ Tue Feb 27 said:


> No, a good film does not need 'beautiful' music. (God, that statement pulls vomit into the back of my throat). No, a good film requires that the music WORKS with the GOOD film. Period. No more, no less.



You're right, but there are good scores that work, and bad scores that "work".


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## Alex W (Feb 27, 2007)

Choco when are you gonna admit that Phillip Glass is awesome?


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## kid-surf (Feb 27, 2007)

Aaron Sapp @ Tue Feb 27 said:


> kid-surf @ Tue Feb 27 said:
> 
> 
> > No, a good film does not need 'beautiful' music. (God, that statement pulls vomit into the back of my throat). No, a good film requires that the music WORKS with the GOOD film. Period. No more, no less.
> ...



Maybe our interpretation of "work" is different.


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## kid-surf (Feb 27, 2007)

choc0thrax @ Tue Feb 27 said:


> As much as I hate Gustavo's music I have to say Kid is right. 8)



I owe you a beer... o-[][]-o


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## david robinson (Feb 28, 2007)

moviemaestro @ Mon Feb 26 said:


> Alex W @ Mon Feb 26 said:
> 
> 
> > Scott Cairns @ Mon Feb 26 said:
> ...



Trust ME, most of the female actors in Hollywood movies ARE hookers anyway!!!


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## Scott Cairns (Feb 28, 2007)

A guy in a bar says to another, "man everyone that comes out of hollywood is either a football player or a prostitute."

The other guys says; HEY, my wife is from Hollywood!

1st guy: oh, really? Um, what team does she play for?? 8) 

Sorry, old joke.


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## david robinson (Feb 28, 2007)

spectrum @ Mon Feb 26 said:


> Definitely agreed that the best score and best song awards were ridiculous and purely political.....BUT....
> 
> The Ennio Morricone special Oscar tribute was a really, really cool moment....woudn't you agree?
> 
> ...



This nod is a very long time coming. Ennio, who i know is not favored in this forum at all, was a very great inspiration to me in the 60's and 70's. the scores to the Leone Westerns are still magic to me.
along with my other favorites, Rosza, Herrmann, Poladouris, Morricone all that is great about film music.

David Robinson.


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## Aaron Sapp (Feb 28, 2007)

kid-surf @ Wed Feb 28 said:


> Aaron Sapp @ Tue Feb 27 said:
> 
> 
> > kid-surf @ Tue Feb 27 said:
> ...



I heard a story once about a couple big shot film composers who sort of "dared" each other to NOT write as much music as possible by hiring a bunch of ghosts. I would say that was a score that "worked". 

You can tell when a composer works really hard, and when he or she writes something that works only out of irony. Granted, a lot of films today don't even deserve the effort, but more often then not I find myself flicking off my monitor watching some of these movies where composers absolutely flat-out write something lazy.


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## Aaron Sapp (Feb 28, 2007)

david robinson @ Wed Feb 28 said:


> This nod is a very long time coming. Ennio, who i know is not favored in this forum at all, was a very great inspiration to me in the 60's and 70's. the scores to the Leone Westerns are still magic to me. along with my other favorites, Rosza, Herrmann, Poladouris, Morricone all that is great about film music.
> 
> David Robinson.



Ah c'mon, give us more credit than that.  He's one of my top three! "Once Upon a Time in America". 

*droooooool*


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## Scott Cairns (Feb 28, 2007)

Warning: this could make you cry; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRb8KKyenSY


"Gabriels Oboe" from The Mission.


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## spectrum (Feb 28, 2007)

david robinson @ Wed Feb 28 said:


> ...Ennio, who i know is not favored in this forum at all...



You can't be serious....are you?

If there was one living film composer that I've heard nearly universally lauded and admired by other composers and musicians, it would be Morricone. You'd have to be pretty rigid not to appreciate his genius in the craft of film scoring.

When he spoke at the SCL meeting the place went crazy. He's a living legend and to me, he's a composer whose body of work exemplifies the very best in every aspect of film music:

Innovation
Emotion
Character
Support for the film
Versatility
Melody
Texture
Orchestration
Elevating the art
Music that both supports the film AND stands on its own
Timelessness

Is there really anyone here that doesn't appreciate Morricone? :?: :o :shock:

To me, that's a bit like saying, "Hitchcock wasn't really all that great of a director". :roll:

PS. On the topic of "no-longer-living" film composers, I'd say the same "near-universal" praise is true of Bernard Hermann.


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## david robinson (Feb 28, 2007)

ahhhh!!!!

now they start putting their hands up.

how many more closet Ennio M. fans do we got on da forum, i wonder, eh?

1968, i heard EM music in New Zealand, "For a Few Dollars More", for the first time.

Changed the way i approached composition, it did.


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## lux (Feb 28, 2007)

Aaron Sapp @ Wed Feb 28 said:


> kid-surf @ Wed Feb 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Aaron Sapp @ Tue Feb 27 said:
> ...



I have to agree with Aaron. 

Consider also that I think actually media scoring carried most of the legacy of orchestral music in late '900, and some composers deserve to be mentioned as "classical" composer other than film music composers.

in my conception going beyond the "it doesnt hurt the movie" its a due for serious musicians, at least while listening and evaluating others works. Unless you consider music as a "silence" filler. Thats at least how i see it.

I think the consideration of how "it works" on a movie is a starting point. But about a billion musicians can make a score to work. The plus is when you have something different, when you feel that a music has an own life. Giving those musicians an additional praise seems mandatory to me.

As we spoken about Morricone, some of the scenes he scored changed radically from good to emotionally movin. For those who have seen the movie, try to imagine the final sequence of "Nuovo cinema paradiso" without that music. I cant tell it just works, it works and it makes it greater than possibly imagined by director itself. Same for Malone's death on untouchables and so on..

Luca


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## spectrum (Feb 28, 2007)

Here's something I realized:

1. It's only the NOMINEES that are voted on by their respective branches (the Music branch votes on the nominees). The AWARD is actually voted on by the whole academy, which includes very few musicians at all. So you basically have an award that we consider highly prized, that's being awarded by people with little to no music background.

2. In politically polarizing times like the one we currently live in, Academy members seem to feel strongly that their votes should especially count as a statement of support for the message of a film...so it's very often in times like this that the message of the film is weighed FIRST before the merits of the achievement itself. 

For example, I saw many amazing documentaries last year that were superbly crafted and remarkable films, but if it's the subject and statement that matters most for the awards...how can any film top a Global Warming documentary by the man most Academy members believe was robbed of the presidency? It was a well done film, but it was really the topic itself that was the big deal.

Babel was an emotional and powerful film with a strong message about the state of the world and how our actions affect others in ways we don't realize. The combination of various music worked very well in the film too.

The score was also composed by the guy who wrote the music for last year's big social-message themed film too....

So all that stuff has got to weight MUCH more in the voting this year than the types of musical/legacy issues that we all think about and value so much as composers.

My 2 cents...


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## david robinson (Feb 28, 2007)

spectrum @ Wed Feb 28 said:


> david robinson @ Wed Feb 28 said:
> 
> 
> > ...Ennio, who i know is not favored in this forum at all...
> ...



With the above sort of subject matter, the forum is turning into quite a nice place.

spectrum, i couldn't agree with you more.

cheers, David R.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 28, 2007)

david robinson @ 28/2/2007 said:


> Ennio, who i know is not favored in this forum at all, was a very great inspiration to me in the 60's and 70's. the scores to the Leone Westerns are still magic to me.





david robinson @ 28/2/2007 said:


> With the above sort of subject matter, the forum is turning into quite a nice place.



A note to newbies:

Careful what you type at this early point in your membership here! If you do a search of this forum for some of the great composers of past, you'll find that many of us have posted about the giants of scoring over the years. Don't assume that because JW, Elfman, T, Newman and Zimmer get a lot of mentions, the VI gang doesn't know its history!

Anothu =o for the tribute to Ennio. He also blew my little musical mind when I first heard some themes from his Leone collaborations. When was the last time you hired a whistler? Do *you* have a spare whip in your studio closet? (don't answer that, Kid...)


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## david robinson (Feb 28, 2007)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Feb 28 said:


> david robinson @ 28/2/2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Ennio, who i know is not favored in this forum at all, was a very great inspiration to me in the 60's and 70's. the scores to the Leone Westerns are still magic to me.
> ...



"Ahhh, ..........a man of GOOD taste" Dracula (G.Oldman) to Harker (K. Reeves) "Bram Stoker's Dracula" (1992).


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 28, 2007)

Ned Bouhalassa @ 28/2/2007 said:


> [A note to newbies:...



Actually, David, that post was directed at you, and others who may be a bit quick to judge this place based only on recent postings/subjects. :wink: This forum is has been a 'nice' place for a few yrs now, and we've been talking about composers from all periods since the beginning.

Just keepin' it real. 8)


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## Evan Gamble (Feb 28, 2007)

My opinion....


I really like Gustavo's work-just don't think it should be considered oscar worthy.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 28, 2007)

> Is there really anyone here that doesn't appreciate Morricone?



I was going to say! Lots of people can write huge, impressive music, just like lots of soloists can play billions of notes that say very little. It's much harder to write melodies like he does and in general to write music as emotional as his. I'm a huge Morricone fan - not that I don't also like a lot of huge, impressive music too.

And good post about the politics, Eric. It's absolutely true, and we are in politically polarized times. I for one have never heard myself sounding like a screaming radical before. Except that everything I shriek is true. :twisted: 

And I have mixed feelings about the political influence in these awards, just as I do with the Grammys. Of course pure artistic merit should be the beginning and end of it, and of course pure merit should determine success in general and we all know that's only in Nirvana. On the other hand, I did feel good that the Dixie Chicks won the Grammys, because what happened to them stinks.

So as long as I agree with the politics I'm okay with them being totally inappropriate.  o=< o-[][]-o :twisted:


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## Niah (Feb 28, 2007)

Morricone is tha law.

Everyone loves him, even guys wearing metallica t-shirts love him.

He has influenced everyone from cassical to popular music.

If I had to choose one composer...I love all of his stuff even his 60's and 70's easy-listening stuff.


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## kid-surf (Feb 28, 2007)

*To Aaron and Lux....*

Like I said, our definition of "works" might not be the same.

For one, the situation you described for me doesn't fall under the category of "works" it falls under "an anomaly". (having said that, I have ghosted a few times. Do I think it "works"? Not really, not from a creative stand point. Having said that, I'd rather never ghost again, and I may never have to. We'll see soon...)

So no, "works" for me does not equal "it doesn't hurt the film". Works for me means "fits like a glove".

For example... Momentum had a very minimalist almost invisible sore. For me that fit like a glove, it made the feel "play/feel" right. I would have hated to hear a melodic score there. HATED to hear one. It would have killed the intent of the film. Period. And it's not a score that is that entertaining to listen to away from the film.

On the other hand... there are plenty of EPIC and/or melodic scores that are/were critical to the film "working". To many to name.

The point is -- One shoe does not fit all films. 

So no, I don't believe there are a billion composers that can make a film "work". There are a billion composers who can fill silence but I wouldn't say that it "works" simply because the silence is snuffed. 

As well, I definitely do NOT want to hear the score have "a life of it's own". I want to hear a score "integrate seamlessly with the film". To my brain, that's when a FILM works. I don't look at the score and film as two separate things, it's one complete artistic vision when it "works". I guess that's why there is a director, to make sure the end vision is UNIFIED. Or at least try to...

So when you, LUX, talk about that scene ("Nuovo cinema paradiso") for me it's that Morricone gave the director what worked. He was able to anticipate that. Then, well, the director "believed" him. So the music stayed, and the film was good.

That's how my brain sees it... with the "film" being the end product, not the score.

Like I said, our definition of "works" might not be the same.


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## kid-surf (Feb 28, 2007)

Two other issues of importance...

Yes, i do have a whip in my closet. (I use it on Choc0.. giddy up)

Yes, everything Nick shrikes is true... especially when he's being whipped.


Morricone -- I'm glad he got that award. People will tell you that these awards are meaningless. But I'll tell you, I felt something when he won. But it's not so much about the award, it's about what the award represents. The thousands of creative man hours that is his collective life. I would guess that the hundreds of films he's done flashed through his mind at that moment, bits of triumph and tragedy. When someone of that caliber wins an award it absolutely means something, something very personal and private. Although, I would also like him to take from that what he's meant to the film industry both to insiders and the general viewing public. It's not an award that says "god job", more so "thank you for your indelible mark on film". And I like that.

That's what that award means from where I sit. In his case it means a lot.

If Borat won... eh, not so much.


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## choc0thrax (Feb 28, 2007)

I'll disagree on the score not having a life of it's own thing. When I saw Jurassic Park for the first time I definitely noticed the music and prefer that to films where I don't notice it. Unless of course I notice the music because it's so bad like say, when i'm watching Heroes.


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## kid-surf (Feb 28, 2007)

I believe that may be semantics.

like Philip Glass said (paraphrased) "I feel i can speak on behalf of all composers and say... we WANT you to notice the music".

I think a good film has noticeable music that works and is seamless. I want to notice the "whole" film and all it's moving parts, and I want them all to work. 

That's a good film in my book -- Good script, good acting, good directing, good score etc. 

In a perfect world they all work seamlessly. Organically. Like they were meant to be together and anything else would feel 'wrong'.

That's the way I see it.


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## kid-surf (Feb 28, 2007)

BTW -- I recently spoke to an acquaintance of mine. Class-A film composer. I told this person that I (ironically) was asked to "get close" to their work. I couldn't find the score for sale so I asked if they could suggest where I could find it...

Their response was... "Just watch the film, that'll tell you everything you need to know".

In other words, the score is part of the film... not a separate entity.

I agree with that ideology. I mean, that's WHY the music was written.

I too listen to scores away from the film, but I do so knowing it's out of context.


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## lux (Feb 28, 2007)

Kid, (or should i write KID)

visual drama and music have an own life from early lyrical music and "libretto" operas, its not my invention. And its not "movie" vs. "music". Having an own life doesnt mean being unable to join with something else.

In my opinion if there's something that history of cinema teach us is that a lot of times, not to say most of times, greatest filmic results are the effect of a combination of unprogrammed events. A glove to a movie is not a bad thing, but considering it from a programmatic point of view its not a mandatory way.

You put words in my mouth that i never used. I never affirmed you have to place strong melodies everywhere, i never said you have to place a big orchestral tutti on a sleeping guy close up. I never affirmed the power of some kind of scores over others. Having an own life doesnt mean being prominent, elitary, totally unrelated and disjointed from video.

having an own life in my vision means "being an artistical creation not necessarely constructed with just a programmatical scope".

If directors had always created or decided themselves every bit of artistic aspects of a movie, including photography, scenics, audio, score, wearings, food for actors... i think the world would probably have missed hundreds of great works. Fortunately it didnt happen.

There are scores that works like a knife on scenes if you consider them on a programmatical point of view but where the ensemble surprisingly trascends the single entities Its a sort of magic. And it is nice to think it still happens here and there.

Yesterday i was on bestservice home page and my eyes got caught by the increasing number of "scoring tools" available. I feel that if I place them on some video they really act as a glove. A sad scene with a piano and clarinet, a western ride with fiddles and woods, an epic march with two thousand horns playing unison a few long notes. They are all gloves.

Thats why a gazillion musicians can make a score to work. And a gazillion musicians really make scores working, every day. Nothing wrong with that.

But we are talking about assigning prices to standing out original soundtracks...thats a bit different to me.

In a recent interview on italian Sat channel, Morricone speaks about when he delivered a score to Brian De Palma and they watched the movie together. At the end of the movie, De Palma approached Morricone saying "I didnt expect that, thank you". And was crying. Watching the scene the italian interpreter begun to cry herself, and then Morricone as well. He says laughin "it was a ridicolous scene, a trio of crying babies.."

Those things still happen. Fortunately.

Luca


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## david robinson (Feb 28, 2007)

Re:lux
Thumbs up for Alex North.
Sparticus wouldn't be half the movie it is without his input.
in fact this movie was my first exposure to excellent film music - i was 11yrs old.
music sounds different at 11yrs.


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## kid-surf (Feb 28, 2007)

Luca--

Semantics. We are saying essentially the same thing through a slight geographic language barrier perhaps.

Scoring Tools --- all that sorta thing, that's not "fitting like a glove" in my mind. For me that's crap. No, I am definitely not pragmatic in my approach to art. Nope, I'm 180 degrees in the other direction. Art to me is a feeling not an equation. 

*"Thats why a gazillion musicians can make a score to work. And a gazillion musicians really make scores working, every day. Nothing wrong with that."*

That's not the way I see it. 

Like I said, our definition of "working" apparently is not at all the same. For me your analogy would produce a gazillion very bland productions. For me that's not "working", that's simply "existing".

Sure the product exists at that point. So what. (you follow me?) 

Trust me, it's mostly semantics.


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## Mike Greene (Feb 28, 2007)

lux @ Wed Feb 28 said:


> . . . "it was a ridicolous scene, a trio of crying babies.."
> 
> Those things still happen. Fortunately.


That happens to me all the time. Usually when there's about a week left and the director hears what I've done and realizes there's not enough time to hire someone else.

FWIW, the client for a documentary I'm doing called this morning and asked me to make my score sound like Babel. Apparently she must have just seen the movie (couldn't possibly be that she didn't like last weeks demos I sent!) So I got the sountrack and I do think it's pretty cool, but I agree there's not enough substance to award it an Oscar. The good news is it's easy to knock off. Not that I would ever do such a thing.


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## david robinson (Feb 28, 2007)

to all morricone admirers:

the leone westerns changed my musical life forever.
but morricone is not the only one figuring in this. he used four great interpreters in the original performance of these groundbreaking scores.
the elementals are: 
the soprano belle canto.
the whistler
the marachi trumpeter
the guitarist, both acoustic and electric.
these artists helped morricone realise his vision.

hollywood could never, ever in a million centuries come up with any of this.
this music, and Leone's films will outlive us all, and rightly so.

David Robinson, Leone/Morricone admirer from 1968 to- forever.


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## Evan Gamble (Feb 28, 2007)

I actually think Morricone's westerns is some of my least favorite of his (though I still obviously love em).

I prefer his scores to The Mission, The Thing, and Cinema Paradiso. =o


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## david robinson (Feb 28, 2007)

hi evan, they're all good, love 'em all.
morricone's work ethic is a model.
love the dedication.


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## Evan Gamble (Feb 28, 2007)

[quote:1350a680e3="david robinson @ Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:07 pm"]hi evan, they're all good, love 'em all.
morricone's work ethic is a model.
love the dedicationò¸œ   S1™¸œ   S1š¸œ   S1›¸œ   S1œ¸œ   S1¸œ   S1ž¸œ   S1Ÿ¸œ   S1 ¸œ   S1¡¸œ   S1¢¸œ   S1£¸œ   S1¤


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 28, 2007)

> I think it's amazing that he doesn't even use a piano. Just a pencil, paper, and desk.



Until recently anyone who didn't just go straight to score (transposed, not concert of course) in pen was considered the absolute worst kind of sissy. And people said "anyone can do *that* when Vangelis did Chariots of Fire by layering stuff over himself.

But I do think that desk must get heavy at Morricone's age.

***

My condolences, David.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 28, 2007)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Feb 28 said:


> > But I do think that desk must get heavy at Morricone's age.
> >
> > ***



:mrgreen:


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## Aaron Sapp (Mar 1, 2007)

david robinson @ Wed Feb 28 said:


> Re:lux
> Thumbs up for Alex North.
> Sparticus wouldn't be half the movie it is without his input.
> in fact this movie was my first exposure to excellent film music - i was 11yrs old.
> music sounds different at 11yrs.



Love the opening credits music to that movie. Boy, you talk about something that really sets the tone!


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## Hermitage59 (Mar 1, 2007)

Add another vote for Morricone. And i'll include Hermann, North, Rosza, and Shostakovich to the list of film composers who hit the highest percentage of 'getting it right' in film music, whether they wrote five or five hundred.

Interesting that it was Rosza who virtually 'invented' the epic film theme, and that's what we're hearing these days.

But someone mentioned Horner as somehow significant.
I can't agree with this. Yes, he is significant, but it isn't for writing his own music.


Alex.


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## david robinson (Mar 2, 2007)

hi, again, just to give an example of how music and image combined correctly can do amazing things:

little anecdote: by 1969 i was already a fan of Morricone's thru exposure to FFOD and FAFDM on a N.Z. band tour (i was a "rock" guitarist).
when GBU premiered in Sydney that same year, of course i went.
i went early to the morning session and there was virtually no one except myself viewing(about 5 others).
it was a big beautiful old fashioned cinema and i sat up the front.
the screen looked a mile wide and the soundtrack was very loud!
there is a sequence in GBU where Wallach forces Eastwood into the desert to punish, torture and finally kill him.
well, morricone's music fitted this chapter so well, the brass arps and sustained low strings gave a feeling of such relentless heat and arridness my throat got dry, it seemed to me that morricone's music was copying the sand dune contures and ripples in great detail as Delli Colli's superb camera tracked along. i was, literally "in" the movie with them.
then, as Tuco is about the kill Blondie, along comes the army hearse in the nick 'o time........ to the sound of a trumpet at first, then with another and another echoing military type bugle calls. (goldsmith's patton st owes a lot to this).
i won't tell you what "exctasy of gold" or "the trio" did to me later in the movie.
sufficed to say i memorized "gold's" melody and the band i was involved in at the time was performing it two weeks later at our gigs.
this was late 1969, and i was just 20yrs.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 3, 2007)

I just finished watching The Departed - geez, so much blood... It was entertaining, great acting and all, but the music? ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. So much guitar noodling! What is this? A new trend? Although some of the licensed cue choices were also questionable, IMHO, too much guitar and strings (pads?), and not enough orchestral/hybrid cues really took away much of the emotion for me. :roll:


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## choc0thrax (Mar 3, 2007)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Mar 03 said:


> I just finished watching The Departed - geez, so much blood... It was entertaining, great acting and all, but the music? ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. So much guitar noodling! What is this? A new trend? Although some of the licensed cue choices were also questionable, IMHO, too much guitar and strings (pads?), and not enough orchestral/hybrid cues really took away much of the emotion for me. :roll:



I didn't even notice the music cause the movie was too good.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 4, 2007)

Saw Babel this afternoon. I heard quite a bit more than just guitar in the score: oud, arab violin, electroacousic soundscapes (Tokyo), synth, piano (helicopter scene, father on balcony), etc. I really think that this is a good example of a minimalist score that works very well. At times it supports the emotion, other times it helps us through very difficult scenes. I love when there's people talking but we can't (and don't need) to hear them. This film did not need a busy score full of notes, counterpoint, etc. 

FWIW, I thought it was a much richer, more interesting, emotional, poetic film than The Departed. Highly recommended viewing (and listening).


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## Hans Adamson (Mar 4, 2007)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Mar 03 said:


> I just finished watching The Departed - geez, so much blood... It was entertaining, great acting and all, but the music? ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. So much guitar noodling! What is this? A new trend? Although some of the licensed cue choices were also questionable, IMHO, too much guitar and strings (pads?), and not enough orchestral/hybrid cues really took away much of the emotion for me. :roll:


Ned,
Always check my Imdb reviews first:
http://imdb.com/title/tt0407887/usercomments-667
(o)


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## choc0thrax (Mar 4, 2007)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun Mar 04 said:


> Saw Babel this afternoon. I heard quite a bit more than just guitar in the score: oud, arab violin, electroacousic soundscapes (Tokyo), synth, piano (helicopter scene, father on balcony), etc. I really think that this is a good example of a minimalist score that works very well. At times it supports the emotion, other times it helps  us through very difficult scenes. I love when there's people talking but we can't (and don't need) to hear them. This film did not need a busy score full of notes, counterpoint, etc.
> 
> FWIW, I thought it was a much richer, more interesting, emotional, poetic film than The Departed. Highly recommended viewing (and listening).



You liked Babel more than The Departed? Ewwww. To me Babel seemed like a less entertaining Crash. Had trouble watching it till the end it was so boring. A cold irritating film.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 4, 2007)

choc,

You've already said that 2 or 3 times in this thread. Multiplying the number of times you say the same thing doesn't give it more weght.


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## choc0thrax (Mar 4, 2007)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun Mar 04 said:


> choc,
> 
> You've already said that 2 or 3 times in this thread. Multiplying the number of times you say the same thing doesn't give it more weght.



I beg to differ.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Mar 4, 2007)

Choco's world is bi-chromatic: either it "sucks" or it's amazing... 
A true computer-age kid (Binary Choco) /\~O


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## almacg (Mar 10, 2007)

Well, actually I think the hate or love ideology comes from having high standards. Some people have difficulty appreciating things unless they truly deserve appreciation. When it comes to films I'm not quite so picky, when it comes to music and music in films I most certainly am.

BTW kid-surf: Why did you find my comment so.... vomit inducing! Music when stripped to its essence is about melodic memorableness (Is that even a word). Air on the G string was written in the 1700s, yet there are loads of people (people with taste) who can recognise the melody today. What about the Toccata? Most people should be able to recognise it from the first 3 notes! (bach's Toccata in D minor)

Today of course we hear the good and the bad, but it seems to me like Hollywood is a way of getting underserving music a lot of attention. Unless I hear the composer of Babel produce something more deserving of my ear, I choose to have no respect for him as a composer! Why applaud laziness and mediocrity?! 

Hollywood should promote more Bachs and less Zimmerframes.


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