# Orchestrating for orchestra



## MoonFlare (Feb 4, 2013)

Hi,

I have some music that is going to be played by an orchestra soon. I have some questions in that respect.

I'm a decent orchestrator for samples. However, I've never orchestrated for an orchestra before (though I tend to follow at least the basic rules when orchestrating for samples).

How can I ensure that a piece sounds as good live as when using samples? Don't get me wrong here (my queston may seem a bit counter intuitive).

As an example, let us focus on one single aspect of the strings: vibrato. When I use CS or LASS I typically don't use NV to V patches. The patches I use already apply vibrato. However, on a score sheet I guess vibrato is noted down. How can I know where to have vibrato and where not to. If this is not done properly, the result will obviously not sound good. There are other questions too, e.g. how to find the correct velocity, etc.?

In short, what is the best way to ensure that the music is played the best possible by the orchestra? What to do and what not to? What considerations are there for the other sections? There will of course be an orchestrator that will help out in a later phase, but I need to orchestrate thngs correctly from the start and convey the correct information to the orchestrator.


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## Tatu (Feb 4, 2013)

Regarding the vibrato.. I'd say it's more important to define, when it's _senza vibrato_ or _white tone_. Players tend to apply it to everything else (naturally knowing the limitations in fast passages for example), they understand the emotional nature of it just like we do. And of course, if you type in _molto expressivo_ to your parts, they'll throw in some extra 

And the velocities. You just need to know your samples vs. the real world.

Communication with the orchestrator, conductor and the orchestra can help filling the gaps.


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## Robin (Feb 4, 2013)

Also consider the fact that your musicians are in fact humans with musical understanding and taste. So if they are good they will understand from the context where the piece should sit and how it should be played.

A safe way would be to mockup your piece in the way you like the sound and give that to an experienced orchestrator along with any sketches/midi etc. He/She'll know how to translate that to the real world. 

For yourself, you just need experience and a lot of score sheet reading while listening to the music to understand how things that are written in the score sheet actually translate to real musicians. But it is rather optimistic to try to reduce all that to some basic formulas that could fit in a post here.

Robin


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## sinkd (Feb 4, 2013)

A couple of very practical things:

1. Pay close attention to dynamics and registration. Samples will tell you that a flute playing a D4 can be heard over a full string mockup or that any oboe player can play that same note ppp. Also make sure that the wind parts breathe.
2. Be generous with cues in the parts. Time with a live orchestra is precious, so any time expended explaining something during the session is time wasted.
3. Mark tempos carefully and spend some time with the conductor before the session.

DS


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## mverta (Feb 4, 2013)

That's a little like saying you're about to perform surgery on a person for the first time, having only ever played Operation. Get an orchestrator, quick.

_Mike


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## Daryl (Feb 4, 2013)

The easiest solution is just to get an experienced orchestrator. However, if you really want to learn how to do this stuff you could always hire someone as a kind of consultant and work on the score together, as a learning experience. Yes, it will cost you more this time, but will mean that somewhere along the line you won't need to rely on a 3rd party in order to write for orchestra and in the long run will probably improve your writing, as you will have a better idea of what orchestral music actually is, rather than just what sounds passable with your samples.

D


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## sbkp (Feb 4, 2013)

mverta @ Mon Feb 04 said:


> That's a little like saying you're about to perform surgery on a person for the first time, having only ever played Operation. Get an orchestrator, quick.
> 
> _Mike



It cannot be said better than this.


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## Rob (Feb 4, 2013)

MoonFlare @ 4th February 2013 said:


> ...There will of course be an orchestrator that will help out in a later phase, but I need to orchestrate thngs correctly from the start and convey the correct information to the orchestrator.


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## MoonFlare (Feb 4, 2013)

Hi guys,

Thanks for all your comments and suggestions!

Yes, as Rob pointed out, there will be an orchestrator to help out. However, my concern is to do things as good as possible before the orchestrator takes over. This would also ensure that the piece will sound as I want it to.

"Yesterday all the money used for the orchestrator seemed a waste of pay.
Now it seems like the orchestra has gone astray.
Oh, I believe in yesterday..."


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## Casey Edwards (Feb 4, 2013)

MoonFlare @ Mon Feb 04 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Thanks for all your comments and suggestions!
> 
> ...



If your goal is to hand this to an orchestra and you want it to be easy to read and fast to work with then you need to study up on SCORE PREP (particularly the MIDI prep stage) alongside your orchestration. These days the first step in this process is delivering an EASY TO READ midi file. Some people quantize and print to staves for fleshing out and others read straight from MIDI tracks and start there. I've seen both. The point is, they don't need every effin' midi track. They don't need to see CS Cello + Sym Cello + LASS Cello layered... just simply: Cello Legato, Cello pizz etc. That with an audio file is usually all they need to begin orchestrating. This is why orchestrating is a team collaboration for some projects. One person is cleaning up Midi, another is orchestrating that midi, then they'll proof read, then prep for all the live desks.


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## mverta (Feb 4, 2013)

Don't bring in an orchestrator later, bring them in sooner. Don't build _anything_ on weak foundations, hoping to fix it later. It'll cost more, be more headache, and unnecessary when a billion things could be avoided right from the start by seeking professional help from the guy down the line.

_Mike


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## RiffWraith (Feb 4, 2013)

mverta @ Tue Feb 05 said:


> ....start by seeking professional help



Heh - you just told him to seek professional help. :lol:



mverta @ Mon Feb 04 said:


> That's a little like saying you're about to perform surgery on a person for the first time, having only ever played Operation. Get an orchestrator, quick.



That ^ :!: 

I had an accident a few years ago, and wound up requiring (oww...it hurts even thinking about it!) a chest tube. One of the few doctors who had been tending to me was this guy named Ryan. He wasn't an actual doctor yet; he was still in med school, and....I dunno, doing some work for extra credit? Anyway, when it came time for the chest tube, he and two other doctors were in the or. Along with anastesiologist (sp?), nurse, etc. While I am laying there, I discovered that the plan was for Ryan to insert the tube, and that this would be not only his first tube insertion - it would be his first invasive surgical procudure. I looked at one of the real doctors, and said, "no fucking way." They assured me that it would be fine -- they would be right there...long story short, one of the real doctors wound up doing the procedure, while Ryan watched.

Get an orchestrator now!!!! :lol:


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## Arbee (Feb 4, 2013)

To put it into perspective, no-one actually dies when you embarass yourself in front of an orchestra, it just feels like it :shock: :lol:


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## David Story (Feb 4, 2013)

MoonFlare @ Mon Feb 04 said:


> ...However, my concern is to do things as good as possible before the orchestrator takes over. This would also ensure that the piece will sound as I want it to.



Ask the orchestrator what he needs to do his job first. That will help you do things right, instead of what you or the folks here think might be right.

Ensuring the piece sounds as you want it to is a process. You will probably see voicing, tessitura, doublings, dynamics, and much more change. And talk to the conductor, he's leading the performance and knows the strengths and weakness of the players.

It's very likely that your idea of what the music sounds like will undergo a major change for the better when you add human skill and creativity to the process. Yes, you are a human. But you only have your limited view of the music. The orchestrator, conductor and all the players will add a billion things that matter.

You know what the intended effect is, but they will bring it to life.

+1 to cleaning the midi


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## Dave Connor (Feb 4, 2013)

You will be surprised (assuming you walk in with solid orchestrations) how much you can adjust what the orchestra is doing in their playing technique right there at the session. While producing (booth with score next to composer) a recent large string orchestra recording, the composer was bothered by the vibrato in the high strings and asked the players to pull it back. After listening I told the lower strings to restore their natural playing as you didn't hear the vibrato except that it went flat without it. (Two different vibratos just like you were using the mod wheel.)

So you can adjust like your sitting at your DAW at home in a surprisingly easy simple way. In fact in this case I convinced the composer to lose the high string line so we made cuts and some simple rewriting in the 2nd violins and got what we needed. 'The Heat' is the name of the film which we recorded at Warner Bros.


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## MoonFlare (Feb 5, 2013)

Arbee @ Tue Feb 05 said:


> To put it into perspective, no-one actually dies when you embarass yourself in front of an orchestra, it just feels like it :shock: :lol:



Hahaha! Well, I guess standing in front of 90 players looking at you like you're a complete noob isn't that funny. 




David Story @ Tue Feb 05 said:


> Ensuring the piece sounds as you want it to is a process. You will probably see voicing, tessitura, doublings, dynamics, and much more change. And talk to the conductor, he's leading the performance and knows the strengths and weakness of the players.
> 
> It's very likely that your idea of what the music sounds like will undergo a major change for the better when you add human skill and creativity to the process. Yes, you are a human. But you only have your limited view of the music. The orchestrator, conductor and all the players will add a billion things that matter.
> 
> You know what the intended effect is, but they will bring it to life.



This is actually good to know! There are certain doublings, etc. I'm a little bit unsure of, and my divisi writing could probably be slightly improved here and there.

A more specific question has emerged regardig ostinatos and tempo: if I have a piece with a slow passage and then a fast passage, how will I combine these tempo wise (it's no problem in the sample world, hehe). Let's say that the slow passage has a tempo of 55. would I then have the ostinato in the fast passage as 32th notes, or would I instead have the tempo of the fast passage to be e.g. 110, and write the ostinatos using 16th notes?

Also, regarding double basses: When I double the basses with cellos (divisi). What is the best range to have the double basses play in to get the massive hollywood-kinda low end. I know this using samples, but it may be different in the real world.

I hope you can bear with me; I know my samples, but a live orchestra is a different thing.


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## bryla (Feb 5, 2013)

Just write the tempo change. It helps a lot if you have a click track for the conductor and write out quarternote = halfnote (in symbols that is).

Massiveness comes from vcl+bs playing verbatim. Often you can divide one or the other in octaves to thin out the power but with fuller texture (if you understand what I'm saying...)
Cellos can be written a fifth above or be divided with one half doubling cellos and the other playing chord-notes. There are MANY ways to do stuff and your 'hollywood-kinda low end' reference might be a bit different than mine.

Good luck with the project! I had my first experience 2 years ago where I my friends spent a day with Nic Raine going through our scores and we helped each other out through the entire process. Some of them were already highly experienced orchestrators.


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## Markus S (Feb 5, 2013)

One thing that helped me a lot : Keep it safe and simple when writing for real orchestras (unless you absolutely know what you are doing).

Do you really need this harmonic note or is this motif, or that run in your composition to make it sound good? Or is there a way to reduce the orchestration to the essential and make it more transparent? My work for live orchestra sounded a lot better from the day on I didn't try to "challenge" the orchestra and it's possibilities, but rather "undercut" it.


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## rayinstirling (Feb 5, 2013)

I have a project soon to be performed by real players.
For the first time ever in something I've created the MD said of the piece "there isn't an unnecessary note in it".
That was the hard bit! Now I leave it to an orchestrator to keep it that way.


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## MoonFlare (Feb 5, 2013)

Simplicity is probably a good thing. Are quick flute and string runs still considered simple?



bryla @ Tue Feb 05 said:


> Just write the tempo change. It helps a lot if you have a click track for the conductor and write out quarternote = halfnote (in symbols that is).
> 
> Massiveness comes from vcl+bs playing verbatim. Often you can divide one or the other in octaves to thin out the power but with fuller texture (if you understand what I'm saying...)
> Cellos can be written a fifth above or be divided with one half doubling cellos and the other playing chord-notes. There are MANY ways to do stuff and your 'hollywood-kinda low end' reference might be a bit different than mine.
> ...



Great, now I'm hopefully one step closer! Would you actually play cellos a fifth above the double basses (assuming that the double basses lies e.g. between E2 and E3 in sample terms). Won't that sound a bit messy due to the low frequency? If the cellos play in octaves instead I would guess the bottom end would be a little bit more clean. That is, half of the cellos playing octaves with the basses, and the other half playing chords.


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## Daryl (Feb 5, 2013)

I don't mean to carp on, but you're playing a very dangerous game. The answers to all of your questions are dependent on circumstance. Without seeing the score (or even hearing it) there is no good advice to give. I really think that you should be in contact with your orchestrator about these matters.

D


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## reddognoyz (Feb 5, 2013)

mverta @ Mon Feb 04 said:


> That's a little like saying you're about to perform surgery on a person for the first time, having only ever played Operation. Get an orchestrator, quick.
> 
> _Mike



+1 on that! 

2 quick experiences. 

1) I had a big band thing I was doing for a Blue Crosss/Blue Shield commercial, and I hacked together a horn part with some synths, but you know, pretty sucky sounding. I hired a horn player I had worked with who was a well known, first call guy here in NYC. Time was very short. late afternoon for a morning record. I was nervous as hell and offered to work with him 'till the wee hours. He said just send me the track (cassette tape! back in the day) and he'd have an arraignment, charts and players for a ten o'clock call. Ten o'clock rolls around and I'm thinking "oh this could be a disaster, what if he doesn't get it". Downbeat and..... boom! it's f'ing perfect! I could have NEVER pulled that off like that. He made me look brilliant. The only smart thing I did was ask around and hire the best. 

One point I'd like to make, this was a union date, it would've been really difficult to make happen if it wasn't. Danny, the horn player, went down as arranger, contractor, and his share of player lines. No negotiations for me at all, all rates set by the union.


2) Scoring a new cartoon series, (which sadly died an untimely death), for an established director and author of some note and he wanted thirties music, like the "Our Gang" shorts. That music was too ruggy, but I knew what he wanted/needed, and I new that beyond the uke/guitar parts, I was totally out of my element. I called a guy who'd been around the biz, wringing my hands and whining a little about how was I going to pull this off? It had to be live players. He suggested I try and hire Leon Redbone's band. Because the series was for the largest entertainment company in the world, the money was pretty bad, but I made the call, somewhat apologetically to the trumpet player in the band and he was like, Of course! when!! Thank you!!" I sent my midi files to an arranger, because again , they do this all the time, I would be hacking my way through. 

The cues we recorded were very tight to picture, but I made it clear that they were free to take some liberties to place the track more in the genre...and my direction was reduced to"more and "less". I just watched them take my charts to a place I never could have.

ps. the guys showed up in tuxes, there were doing a society date in town, so this was pretty opportune for them.

So , yes hire an orchestrator, hire the best you can work with.


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## mducharme (Feb 5, 2013)

MoonFlare @ Tue Feb 05 said:


> Great, now I'm hopefully one step closer! Would you actually play cellos a fifth above the double basses (assuming that the double basses lies e.g. between E2 and E3 in sample terms). Won't that sound a bit messy due to the low frequency? If the cellos play in octaves instead I would guess the bottom end would be a little bit more clean. That is, half of the cellos playing octaves with the basses, and the other half playing chords.



I think he probably meant a fifth above divisi double basses in octaves? Because yes, having a fifth down too low wound sound muddy. However, divisi double basses in octaves is recommended against by Kennan, at least in the case that they are not supported with the cellos. Perhaps it works better with top players?

The most typical thing is for double basses to be an octave below the cellos, hence their natural transposition of sounding an octave below written - so on the score, when you see what appears to be unison cellos and basses, they are actually in octaves.


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## MoonFlare (Feb 5, 2013)

mducharme @ Tue Feb 05 said:


> MoonFlare @ Tue Feb 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Great, now I'm hopefully one step closer! Would you actually play cellos a fifth above the double basses (assuming that the double basses lies e.g. between E2 and E3 in sample terms). Won't that sound a bit messy due to the low frequency? If the cellos play in octaves instead I would guess the bottom end would be a little bit more clean. That is, half of the cellos playing octaves with the basses, and the other half playing chords.
> ...



Yes, you are right. I think I will go with something simple. Probably all basses playing non-divisi with some cellos chiming in at a higher octave. And then comes the tuba and bass trombone. 

What about the contra bassoon? What would be a good voicing for this instrument (also compared to a regular bassoon)?


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## Robin (Feb 5, 2013)

There is no general answer to such questions. It ALWAYS depends on the musical context. Yes, cellos and basses are great in octaves, yes, they are also great in octave+fifth, depending if you need more punch or more sonority. Yes, it depends on the chord, yes, also on the texture, yes, you could divisi the basses but usually don't need to etc. So asking questions like that is like asking if you should use a spoon for eating soup or rather for stirring your coffee.

Really, just get a good orchestrator. Whatever you do now, seeing that you have no real experience, your orchestrator will take apart your orchestration again anyway, so you might just as well save that step.

Robin


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## bryla (Feb 5, 2013)

Didn't mean to stir up things, my main claim was this:

There are MANY ways to do stuff and your 'hollywood-kinda low end' reference might be a bit different than mine.

Other than that: go talk to someone about your particular score!


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## mducharme (Feb 5, 2013)

Obviously you will need to hire an orchestrator ASAP, your orchestration will get boring quickly if you write an entire score following the generic but tried-and-tested SATB string orchestration of 1st and 2nd violins soprano melody, violas alto voice, divisi cellos (playing tenor and bass voices) and bass sounding an octave below the low cello bass voice.

However, I do think orchestration is a part of the creative process. In the future, will you always want to have to rely on an orchestrator to get a proper product?

I would suggest at least thinking.. if you did not have an orchestrator, what you would do? What changes would you probably make, to solve balance issues, technical problems of playability, etc? I would not necessarily make those changes yourself, just think about what you would do and record it somewhere, in the form of brief notes scribbled on the score. When your orchestrator tackles the project, look for spots (there will certainly be many) where what the orchestrator did is different from the solution you thought of. Try to find out why the orchestrator used a different solution, and you will learn much.


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## MoonFlare (Feb 7, 2013)

mducharme @ Wed Feb 06 said:


> Obviously you will need to hire an orchestrator ASAP, your orchestration will get boring quickly if you write an entire score following the generic but tried-and-tested SATB string orchestration of 1st and 2nd violins soprano melody, violas alto voice, divisi cellos (playing tenor and bass voices) and bass sounding an octave below the low cello bass voice.
> 
> However, I do think orchestration is a part of the creative process. In the future, will you always want to have to rely on an orchestrator to get a proper product?
> 
> I would suggest at least thinking.. if you did not have an orchestrator, what you would do? What changes would you probably make, to solve balance issues, technical problems of playability, etc? I would not necessarily make those changes yourself, just think about what you would do and record it somewhere, in the form of brief notes scribbled on the score. When your orchestrator tackles the project, look for spots (there will certainly be many) where what the orchestrator did is different from the solution you thought of. Try to find out why the orchestrator used a different solution, and you will learn much.



Exactly! I couldn't agree more!

Most people here are like: "Get an orchestrator. Period." Yes, an orchestrator will be involved soon, but there is no reason why I should not orchestrate things how I feel is right. Obviously there will be changes, but I will learn very much after first doing it my way and then see the result after the music has been processed by a professional orchestrator. The learning outcome will probably be higher than reducing a score made by another composer, since I know my music so much better and can argue with myself why I did certain things.

I'm currently learning more about orchestration, and therefore there are some questions that may seem a bit trivial. As an example, I never use contra bassoon since I don't have a library that features one. Haha. How can I know how to use this instrument? Well, I ask. I know orchestration depends a lot on what you try to communicate, and that there are a lot of orchestral colours available. But I also do believe that it's possible to give some general quidelines. 

On that note I'll probably ending up playing intervals with the bassoons where the contra bassoon doubles the lower notes of the interval. Any comment on that particular way of doing things?


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## mverta (Feb 7, 2013)

MoonFlare @ Thu Feb 07 said:


> Most people here are like: "Get an orchestrator. Period."



Technically, it's the seasoned-professionals-with-decades-of-experience-who-know-what-a-total-clusterfuck-you're-setting-yourself-up-for, having-grossly-underestimated-the-process here, who are like, "Get an orchestrator. Period." 

A sage piece of advice, which I notice you've decided to ignore.

Best of luck.


_Mike


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## George Caplan (Feb 7, 2013)

MoonFlare @ Thu Feb 07 said:


> As an example, I never use contra bassoon since I don't have a library that features one. Haha. How can I know how to use this instrument?



:lol: :lol: :lol: 

thats hysterical.

go get em cowboy.


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## George Caplan (Feb 7, 2013)

mverta @ Thu Feb 07 said:


> MoonFlare @ Thu Feb 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Most people here are like: "Get an orchestrator. Period."
> ...



that's even more hysterical. but true.

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## EastWest Lurker (Feb 7, 2013)

mverta @ Thu Feb 07 said:


> MoonFlare @ Thu Feb 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Most people here are like: "Get an orchestrator. Period."
> ...



What Mike said.


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## Jimbo 88 (Feb 7, 2013)

I haven't had the time to read thru all the posts, so I might be retreading some ideas...or missing some things.

The best way to do vibrato, dynamics and articulation markings..at least for me...Open up my score in Sibelius and import the audio from my DAW that will sync to the score. I follow the score and listen. Using my ears i go in and add markings.

It is very labor intensive, but besides getting all the notes correct, the most important part of creating a score.

The more detailed(better) you mark your score, the quicker and efficient your session will go.


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## MoonFlare (Feb 7, 2013)

Jimbo 88 @ Thu Feb 07 said:


> I haven't had the time to read thru all the posts, so I might be retreading some ideas...or missing some things.
> 
> The best way to do vibrato, dynamics and articulation markings..at least for me...Open up my score in Sibelius and import the audio from my DAW that will sync to the score. I follow the score and listen. Using my ears i go in and add markings.
> 
> ...



Thank you!


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## mducharme (Feb 7, 2013)

MoonFlare @ Thu Feb 07 said:


> Exactly! I couldn't agree more!
> 
> Most people here are like: "Get an orchestrator. Period." Yes, an orchestrator will be involved soon, but there is no reason why I should not orchestrate things how I feel is right. Obviously there will be changes, but I will learn very much after first doing it my way and then see the result after the music has been processed by a professional orchestrator. The learning outcome will probably be higher than reducing a score made by another composer, since I know my music so much better and can argue with myself why I did certain things.
> 
> ...



I would not just start adding in random instruments that you think should be there. When you get the music to your orchestrator, they can figure out how to alter it to make it work. You should have enough in the music so that it is clear what you want (meaning, I wouldn't just send them a piano rendition and say "orchestrate this"). However, I think it is dangerous to start going and adding in instruments you're unfamiliar with just because you think they should possibly be there because they exist.

I have studied orchestration for years now, and am having to take an intro orchestration course as part of my degree, even though I've done a lot of study. I find it pretty easy, but I find a lot of the people are over-orchestrating - when doing a 2/2/2/2 winds and strings arranging assignment for a short piano piece, they will have all of both going constantly, all doubling these 4 SATB lines. It's really too much for the piece.

If you don't know what to do with the contrabassoon, you probably shouldn't be adding it in - just because you think it should be there because it exists is not the greatest reason. It would take too long to explain all the standard uses of woodwinds, and orchestration textbooks do that much better.

Also, consider this - the orchestrator may take the presence of the contrabassoon to mean that you really wanted that color in the piece, and make decisions based on that information. For instance, if they took the presence of the contrabassoon to mean that you wanted a darker color there, they might alter other elements of the music to bring that darkness out more. If meanwhile you just added it for no real reason, it can throw off the results of the finished product compared with what you actually wanted.

I would add in what you know you want to your DAW version or whatever you are composing in, but just keep mental notes (or stuff on paper) that are not even shared with the orchestrator as to what you would expect would be added in / changed by the orchestrator.

Don't even bother trying to tackle notation yourself unless you've had lots of pieces performed by live ensembles with notation. The orchestrator could likely notate it much, much faster.


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## MoonFlare (Feb 8, 2013)

mducharme @ Fri Feb 08 said:


> MoonFlare @ Thu Feb 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Exactly! I couldn't agree more!
> ...



Now this is a good reply! Thanks very much for taking the time to write this!
It makes a lot of sense to me.  Out goes the contrabassoon. Hehe.


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## JonnyB12 (Feb 15, 2013)

Can I chime in here with a tip, as a session player myself, to say be aware of the brass section's endurance.... Writing a full page of sustained fortissimo high register notes without a break for the French Horns for example, will ensure you have no horns for the rest of the session, as their lips would have 'gone' - it would be like asking a weightlifter to lift their heaviest weight continuously for 10 minutes or so.... 
A seasoned orchestrator worth his salt would spot this of course and advise against it.
Just saying, as time is money on these sessions, you don't want to have to do a re-write mid session!
Of course I don't know if you write this sort of thing or not, but it does happen from time to time out there :?


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## Jimbo 88 (Feb 15, 2013)

Another thing to do ...bring in a violin player (or 3) and have him/her play along with your score and record them in your home. They will clue you into markings for the strings.


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## MoonFlare (Feb 18, 2013)

bazhorn @ Fri Feb 15 said:


> Can I chime in here with a tip, as a session player myself, to say be aware of the brass section's endurance.... Writing a full page of sustained fortissimo high register notes without a break for the French Horns for example, will ensure you have no horns for the rest of the session, as their lips would have 'gone' - it would be like asking a weightlifter to lift their heaviest weight continuously for 10 minutes or so....
> A seasoned orchestrator worth his salt would spot this of course and advise against it.
> Just saying, as time is money on these sessions, you don't want to have to do a re-write mid session!
> Of course I don't know if you write this sort of thing or not, but it does happen from time to time out there :?



Haha. That's a good tip! I'll give 'em some breaks here and there.


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## Guy Bacos (Feb 18, 2013)

And an orchestrator doesn't mean he's going to redo your piece, maybe it might just need some breathing marks here and there, bowing indications, correct phrasing, more precise dynamics, the attention of a few notes difficult to play or impossible, correct clefs etc. things like that.


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## MoonFlare (Feb 21, 2013)

Guy Bacos @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> And an orchestrator doesn't mean he's going to redo your piece, maybe it might just need some breathing marks here and there, bowing indications, correct phrasing, more precise dynamics, the attention of a few notes difficult to play or impossible, correct clefs etc. things like that.



Thanks for your comment!

It is something like this I would think an orchestrater would help with. That's also why I believe you have to do a lot of the orchestration by yourself (on the contrary to what some others here seem to suggest).


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## JohnG (Feb 21, 2013)

Hi MoonFlare,

I agree that a "pure" orchestrator will not necessarily redo your piece, but there is always a certain amount of arranging that takes place as well. Possibly what you need is an arranger / orchestrator.

I don't mean to be presumptuous, but based on some of your posts, I would urge you to engage an arranger / orchestrator early enough so that he or she can make substantial revisions if necessary.

By all means, have a go yourself. As some have commented, you might learn more that way. That said, don't wait until the last minute to get help. An orchestration is often like a house of cards -- change one element and an entire passage needs to be rethought -- so a last minute touch-up may not be successful if there are substantial revisions required.

Good for you getting an orchestra. I hope you find it tremendously satisfying.


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## Guy Bacos (Feb 21, 2013)

What makes it difficult for anybody on this thread to answer this question accurately, is that nobody really knows how much your current score needs work. Maybe it will only need slight adjustments as I mentioned in my previous post, or maybe it will need re-arranging some passages to make them more idiomatic. But one thing is for sure and I agree with others, consult an orchestrator long enough before the performance.


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## Goran (Feb 21, 2013)

mducharme @ Thu Feb 07 said:


> but I find a lot of the people are over-orchestrating - when doing a 2/2/2/2 winds and strings arranging assignment for a short piano piece, they will have all of both going constantly, all doubling these 4 SATB lines. It's really too much for the piece.



For the sake of the institution the people you are referring to are learning their "orchestration" at, I sincerely hope your description of their "approach" was ment as a joke.


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## MoonFlare (Feb 22, 2013)

JohnG @ Thu Feb 21 said:


> Hi MoonFlare,
> 
> I agree that a "pure" orchestrator will not necessarily redo your piece, but there is always a certain amount of arranging that takes place as well. Possibly what you need is an arranger / orchestrator.
> 
> ...



Hi JohnG,

Thanks for your comment! Yes, I think there will be sufficient time for working with the orchestrator. It will definitely be interesting to see how much that is changed of my work, and how much that is kept. In other words, I will get a sense of how good I'm at orchestrating. Hehe.

Regardless, I would still have to lay out the different passages, and describe how the dynamics should be, what colours that are desirable, etc. 



Guy Bacos @ Thu Feb 21 said:


> What makes it difficult for anybody on this thread to answer this question accurately, is that nobody really knows how much your current score needs work. Maybe it will only need slight adjustments as I mentioned in my previous post, or maybe it will need re-arranging some passages to make them more idiomatic. But one thing is for sure and I agree with others, consult an orchestrator long enough before the performance.



Jepp, it will be enough time for that.


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