# Getting a Composer's Assistant Position?



## JoeBarlow (May 17, 2016)

I've seen a lot of you guys are assistants to composers and I know some of you are busy enough composers that you need assistants, so how does someone get the opportunity? 

I live in a small UK town so I can't really hang around other composers and assistants enough that I can just stumble into an opportunity as an intern or assistant. 
Is it best to just cold-email composers with my cv and portfolio and hope that they are looking for someone? If so, where do you get their information from (I see some bigger composers have agents, which i'm guessing will get me nowhere)? 

Do composers normally advertise the position in any way? 
Sorry for all the questions, I'm just a bit puzzled at where to look!


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## Daryl (May 17, 2016)

What skills do you have? Maybe posting your CV here might get some suggestions for you. If you do a search you will find a list of the skills that my assistants are expected to have. I'm sure I posted one some time ago.


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## JoeBarlow (May 17, 2016)

Daryl said:


> What skills do you have? Maybe posting your CV here might get some suggestions for you. If you do a search you will find a list of the skills that my assistants are expected to have. I'm sure I posted one some time ago.



Sure, would love some advise on what I should include and improve on 

(Forum wouldn't let me upload .doc so this is my current portfolio url http://tinyurl.com/h4uyyb3)

Also just found your list of skills, maybe I should work on my spreadsheet formulas and coding batch programs !!


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## wpc982 (May 18, 2016)

JoeBarlow, I sometimes think of hiring an assistant, but would not be in the least interested in how well the person composes. Rather, I'd look for someone that is in the musical world, but mainly can do some of the things I don't do well. And they are legion .. but the one thing every composer CAN do, presumably, is compose. So I'd beef up your list of accomplishments with other facets of your experience, even things that you might consider trivial. Can you spell? Can you write? Can you modify a web site? Can you go to a party and represent your composer's interests? Can you be organized about maintaining a social media presence? Do you have an attractive telephone voice, to cold-call clients on your composer's behalf?


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## givemenoughrope (May 18, 2016)

wpc982 said:


> Can you go to a party and represent your composer's interests? Can you be organized about maintaining a social media presence? Do you have an attractive telephone voice, to cold-call clients on your composer's behalf?



kill me


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## AlexRuger (May 18, 2016)

wpc982 said:


> Can you go to a party and represent your composer's interests?...Do you have an attractive telephone voice, to cold-call clients on your composer's behalf?



I've done a _lot _of composer assistant work, and I've never been asked to do anything like that, nor do I know anyone who has. Especially the first one. That's just weird.


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## Daryl (May 18, 2016)

JoeBarlow said:


> Also just found your list of skills, maybe I should work on my spreadsheet formulas and coding batch programs !!


The thing to remember is for you it is about what you can get from it, but for the composer it is about what you can bring to the table. For example, if you worked for me, other than because I'm a nice guy, I couldn't care less about your composition skills or orchestration, because I do that myself. However, for the odd times I need a decent mock-up, I could use someone who does that well. Not because I can't do it, but because it's so boring and a waste of my time, when everything is going to be replaced anyway.

Looking at your CV, the things which would stop me even giving you an interview are:

1. No mention of any notation software. In fact there's not really anything to say that you are literate.
2. Obviously you can use OSX. No mention of Windows. Deal breaker for many composers, who may use OSX but have Windows slaves.
3. No mention of Excel. Just "admin" which means nothing. I want to know what you can do.

Realistically, if you can do any of these, they must be on your CV. Remember that an employer might get hundreds of CVs so if the information is not there, he/she may assume that you can't do it.


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## pkm (May 18, 2016)

AlexRuger said:


> I've done a _lot _of composer assistant work, and I've never been asked to do anything like that, nor do I know anyone who has. Especially the first one. That's just weird.


Same here, other than maybe being at a premiere or other event and just being a normal adult, not doing anything that would reflect badly on my boss.


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## chillbot (May 18, 2016)

AlexRuger said:


> I've done a _lot _of composer assistant work, and I've never been asked to do anything like that, nor do I know anyone who has. Especially the first one. That's just weird.



Verified.

And also @wpc982 composing and musicality is very high up for me on a list of attributes I would look for. I'm not looking for a personal assistant or a secretary, I need a composer's assistant that has a good understanding of what I do and can help me do it better.


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## wpc982 (May 18, 2016)

Naturally needs differ. Maybe the word "party" is off-putting. How about, "opening"? "Premiere"? "Performance where an organization presents the kind of music that I produce and is a good candidate to commission me for a new piece"? Not that my experience in this is huge, but I've personally seen effective assistants in these roles.

But the main thing, for the OP, is to get an expanded list of what you can do as represented by what you have done into the CV. And especially for someone, as you appear to be, with very little real experience, don't hesitate to put down very minor things as long as they are real experience and real skills. If you accidentally acquired expertise in dominos, put it on the resume. When I was young, I was a world-champion tiddlywinks player and won a varsity letter in fencing. Both went on my resume, and got conversations going, though to my knowledge they alone never got me a job.

And finally, right here in this thread you have three potential employers, each wanting something different: Daryl wants excel and windows, chillbot wants musicality, I want personality -- people differ, and you can't know in advance who is going to be thinking of hiring someone -- so again, show what you can that is really part of you.


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## JoeBarlow (May 18, 2016)

Daryl said:


> Looking at your CV, the things which would stop me even giving you an interview are:
> 
> 1. No mention of any notation software. In fact there's not really anything to say that you are literate.
> 2. Obviously you can use OSX. No mention of Windows. Deal breaker for many composers, who may use OSX but have Windows slaves.
> ...



Thank you so much for all the information! I've taken it on board and made some adjustments to my CV. I'm also going to get my VEP knowledge to a stronger standard, as you mentioning slaves makes me think that having a superior knowledge on networking between machines with VEP will give me a serious advantage. 




wpc982 said:


> right here in this thread you have three potential employers, each wanting something different: Daryl wants excel and windows, chillbot wants musicality, I want personality -- people differ, and you can't know in advance who is going to be thinking of hiring someone -- so again, show what you can that is really part of you.



Great advice! There does seem to be a pattern in what an assistant is considered to be, but it seems to vary a fair amount between each composer.


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## Daryl (May 19, 2016)

Joe, that CV is much better now. I would suggest that your list of skills needs to be categorised, as it is a little long and unwieldy. I would also put it higher up the CV, and possibly your education lower down, although that's just a matter of preference. if you've done any audio editing (which I assume you have) add that to your mixing, mastering bit.

Just one more point. Whilst extra curricular activities are not essential, if there is something at which you excel (maybe you were on the Olympic team for fencing), please do mention it. Whilst not being directly important, it shows that you have the ability to succeed at something. Most people succeed at nothing, so it can show an employer that you really understand dedication and hard work, and that is a transferable skill.

Sorry, more more thing. Don't necessarily send the same CV out to everyone. Whilst it may seem dangerous to shift things around, add and delete, you need to know what your prospective employer does and make sure that you can show some interest in that field. For example, if you were contacting me, then absolutely tell me that you are used to producing sessions from a score, because even though I may not need that, it is a skill which goes on here all the time. However, if you are applying to a composer who is not only musically illiterate, but has probably never used a live player in their life, there are other things (such as your instrument creation in Kontakt) that could be more prominent.

Next thing. I suggest you start another thread asking about how to shine in an interview...!


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## RiffWraith (May 19, 2016)

Daryl said:


> Most people succeed at nothing,



Yeah, tell me about it...


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## Daryl (May 19, 2016)

RiffWraith said:


> Yeah, tell me about it...


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## RiffWraith (May 19, 2016)

Ha ha!


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## Gabriel Oliveira (May 19, 2016)

wpc982 said:


> ... to cold-call clients on your composer's behalf?



~cold calling~, in what year are we at?


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## wpc982 (May 19, 2016)

Should I say, English grammar, too? What would you call using a telephone to contact a prospective customer, with whom there has been no previous contact, Gabriel? Looking at it more broadly, generally an assistant is going to be a generation or so younger than a hiring composer, so changes in idiom should not be a matter of comment?


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## givemenoughrope (May 19, 2016)

I'm starting to think that it might be interesting to work for you as some kind of Andy Kaufman-esque performance art.


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## chillbot (May 19, 2016)

wpc982 said:


> What would you call using a telephone to contact a prospective customer, with whom there has been no previous contact, Gabriel?


Sorry I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around this... how many gigs do you get in this manner? Does this still happen? But even more nutty... how many gigs would you get having YOUR ASSISTANT call? I can just barely imagine how that conversation would go. Hi I'm calling on behalf of xxx who you don't know but he's a really great guy and you should hire him....

I'm going to assume what you mean by "cold call" is "put your assistant in charge of networking via social media" because that would actually make some sort of sense.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (May 19, 2016)

wpc982 said:


> Should I say, English grammar, too?



where?



wpc982 said:


> What would you call using a telephone to contact a prospective customer, with whom there has been no previous contact, Gabriel?



I would call it "annoyance".


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## Vicky (May 23, 2016)

I was wondering if it is possible to work as a composer assistant remotely? Is this a common practice when a composer and his assistant live in different cities or even countries?


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## Daryl (May 24, 2016)

Vicky said:


> I was wondering if it is possible to work as a composer assistant remotely? Is this a common practice when a composer and his assistant live in different cities or even countries?


That's very unlikely to happen. A lot of an assistant's job is keeping the studio running, doing updates etc. and whilst that can be done on remote, it is not as convenient. However, that's not to say that you couldn't perform certain tasks remotely. Just that you'd be unlikely to get the gig in the first place.

What can you offer as an assistant that would make hiring you more attractive than getting a local person?


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## Rctec (May 24, 2016)

I would never hire an assistant that wasn't on site. My poor assistants are the first one's there and the last to leave. 

Here is a very shallow and non-inclusive list from the top of my head:

We hire people that usually don't want to be composers (got plenty of those ), but want to be passionate about being good techs, good programmers, good arrangers, good engineers. This is not a stepping stone to getting my job....

We find it takes us about a year to train an assistant - especially when they went to one of the music colleges. It takes a long time to embrace a new paradigm and workflow, to unlearn out-dated methods and embrace the real world. ...but know your signal flow! And just because you've spent a fortune on student loans doesn't make you anymore entitled or original than anyone else. Do you know film, sequencers, pro-tools, Pcs and Macs, music editing ... And how to make it all play nice together?
Do you know how not to get hacked, how to keep your mouth shut and never, ever mention anything about a project you're working on, not even to your mom?
Can you be part of a conversation and listen and remember without writing things down while everyone else is talking?
And you have to fit in socially! We are all a bit odd (!) with crazy, scary deadlines - and the assistant is the first in line when it comes to making sure the technology works, so "check your work three times - and then check it again" attitude is mandatory.
The hours are flexible - if you can find any hours left in a 24-hour day. Weekends? That's when we're really cranking! Less calls to interrupt the music making. Have you got a passport? We've suddenly found our selfs on 'planes by lunchtime, when an hour before we thought we where just coming in to the studio as usual.
Can you think ahead in a creative way, anticipate problems that no one else thought off and solve them without drawing attention to your self?
...and do you wear cool socks?

-Hz-


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## Daryl (May 24, 2016)

Rctec said:


> ...and do you wear cool socks?


For me, this is the most important, because my studio is a "no shoes" area.


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## jononotbono (May 24, 2016)

Rctec said:


> I would never hire an assistant that wasn't on site. My poor assistants are the first one's there and the last to leave.
> 
> Here is a very shallow and non-inclusive list from the top of my head:
> 
> ...



Love this.


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## Baron Greuner (May 24, 2016)

Do composer assistants help with the gardening? Boy, it's hot today!

They can wear shoes if required but it's not obligatory.


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## Baron Greuner (May 24, 2016)

Incidentally, for anyone that went to music college and spent 3 or 4 years training and learning how to play an instrument, composition, etc my advice would be not to go anywhere near a composer that didn't go to a good music college. I would insist on the composer that you work for went to a music college so then you can at least talk the same language.

When it comes to knowing about films, I've probably forgoten more about films than I care to remember, but my advice today would be to get familiar with films that were made in the last 10 minutes or so. The old classic style film isn't going to help you in todays market of films that are basically tarted up video games, that are looking to 'become' a video game after release anyway. You need to learn about noise. Noise is an essential part of so called film scoring. You're wasting you time listening to people like Goldsmith in todays market.


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## JoeBarlow (May 24, 2016)

Thank you @Rctec and @Daryl for really going in depth in the duties and expectations from an assistant, it has proved invaluably helpful! 

In reply to something Hans said, I've never really thought as an assistants job as a stepping stone to getting the composers job but more of a way to work day to day with inspiring people. I remember watching an interview with Tom Holkenborg where he talks about cutting up samples for Harry Gregson-Williams when he first started in the film music scene. It felt like a fairly common thing for me to see composers starting out helping in the technical side of things while they hone in their skills, but by ultimately being composers they could better understand the workflow needs of the composer they are working for. 




Rctec said:


> ...and do you wear cool socks?



If these aren't cool I'm out of touch


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## Gerhard Westphalen (May 24, 2016)

Vicky said:


> I was wondering if it is possible to work as a composer assistant remotely? Is this a common practice when a composer and his assistant live in different cities or even countries?



I've been working remotely for a composer in LA but I mostly advise him on tech and then he obviously has to be the one to change things or get a new PC running etc. I often Teamviewer in to fix things or show him how to do certain things. Having said that, for the 2 features that I helped on, I flew down for 2 weeks towards the end of the projects to be there in the heat of things. That's when I did the most helping with upgrading setup, fixing keyboards, making sure the studio wasn't in complete chaos, etc. I ended up doing some orchestration work but that's easy to do remotely. Having a rig that's almost a clone of whoever you're helping also helps.


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## givemenoughrope (May 24, 2016)

I assisted a tv composer on and off a few years ago. Showed up to his place on the West side every morning. Took care of the caffeine, alt/sub/stem mixes of cues, programming, recording gtr, horns, synths, runs to GC/Sam Ash, whatever. The problem we ran into was workflow. There was no point at which I could take over the session (say, after a sketch) so he could move on to another one and then come back to it for the final touches. This is after making a clone rig with all of his old, weird, custom EXS samples and learning every facet of how he worked in Logic. He was just so protective and worked in such an odd way that I really couldn't help him work faster except for the above, taking a stab at or just prepping new cues. 

So, I guess while the name of the game is make yourself useful it's also possible that the person you work for might be holding back productivity. Not that I didn't learn anything...but remember you are there to absorb new skills, not bad habits.


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## Jeffrey Peterson (May 24, 2016)

My input won't be as valuable as someone who has already lived the part, but for what its worth I interviewed to be Lorne Balfe's assistant a few years ago and RC was basically an aspiring composers Disneyland. The magic was so thick it was palpable  Lorne couldn't have been nicer. I didn't get the gig but since then I've been able to achieve my dream and for the last 2 years I've been making over $100,000 composing music. 

The knowledge, experience and contacts working at RC is invaluable, but there are other ways to make your dream come true. And paying the bills while doing what you love is EVERYTHING, whether its working on the next blockbuster or on something few will ever see. Your still creating the best music you can, and that's pretty cool. 
I still would love the position as would many MANY aspiring composers would but if its not in the cards right now then work on your production skills...mixing/producing/mockups the whole nine yards. To even get an interview your production skills must be second to none, so readup practice and know EVERYTHING you can about EVERYTHING that goes on in a studio. The composer needs to hear something in your music that is special and that shows you know what your doing. Composers don't have time to hire a mixer so you must be an engineer, mockup guru, composer, technical genius(know the ins and outs of a studio equipment) etc etc.

My advice is to not go to college if you haven't already. You will not want that debt. Learn everything on your own with the internet. I did


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## wpc982 (May 24, 2016)

All interesting and valuable .. but please, please, please, Jeffrey Peterson -- that's not good advice. If you could re-phrase it, like, don't run up impossible debts at less than top-notch schools, then maybe yes. But generally, music school is going to be a good thing, so do it.


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## kunst91 (May 24, 2016)

The whole "don't go to college" attitude has always bothered me. I think a better way of putting it would be "college isn't for everyone, so take a closer look before you spend all of that money..." There's no reason to outright dissuade someone from getting an education (in music or otherwise). I find that my academic background (which was pretty rigorous), actually prepared me for the stress/perfectionism/sleepless nights that come with working in the industry. Although I will say that when it comes to the tech stuff for assistant gigs, Professor YouTube has been my greatest mentor


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## Gabriel Oliveira (May 24, 2016)

college is so overrated


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## Rctec (May 24, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> Incidentally, for anyone that went to music college and spent 3 or 4 years training and learning how to play an instrument, composition, etc my advice would be not to go anywhere near a composer that didn't go to a good music college. I would insist on the composer that you work for went to a music college so then you can at least talk the same language.
> 
> When it comes to knowing about films, I've probably forgoten more about films than I care to remember, but my advice today would be to get familiar with films that were made in the last 10 minutes or so. The old classic style film isn't going to help you in todays market of films that are basically tarted up video games, that are looking to 'become' a video game after release anyway. You need to learn about noise. Noise is an essential part of so called film scoring. You're wasting you time listening to people like Goldsmith in todays market.


Of course the same goes for the director/composer relationship. There is nothing more alienating (and I've seen this happen time and time again...) then some smartarse person trying to speak in technical musical terms to a director. Instantly puts the director on an unequal footing and smacks of elitism. That does not mean that the director is musically illiterate, naive or lacks sophistication. It just means you have to learn an appropriate way to communicate your ideas with someone that's used to speak in story terms, not Schönberg. But you have to know your Jerry Goldsmith and you have to know your movies. Not a week goes by where we don't talk about one of Jerry's amazing scores. You might want to sound cynical and superior, but all you're doing is sounding like the people of a generation before that couldn't get what Jerry was doing with some of his more experimental music and soundscapes, or scores like 'Pelham 1-2-3' or what - as an example - Giorgio Moroder did with 'Midnight Express'. Noise? ... Words are just noise...and - quoting (I think) Duke Ellington: there are only two kinds of music: Good and Bad.


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## jononotbono (May 24, 2016)

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> college is so overrated



Some Music colleges are terrible and some are incredible. You have to choose wisely!


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## dgburns (May 24, 2016)

Rctec said:


> Of course the same goes for the director/composer relationship. There is nothing more alienating (and I've seen this happen time and time again...) then some smartarse person trying to speak in technical musical terms to a director. Instantly puts the director on an unequal footing and smacks of elitism. That does not mean that the director is musically illiterate, naive or lacks sophistication. It just means you have to learn an appropriate way to communicate your ideas with someone that's used to speak in story terms, not Schönberg. But you have to know your Jerry Goldsmith and you have to know your movies. Not a week goes by where we don't talk about one of Jerry's amazing scores. You might want to sound cynical and superior, but all you're doing is sounding like the people of a generation before that couldn't get what Jerry was doing with some of his more experimental music and soundscapes, or scores like 'Pelham 1-2-3' or what - as an example - Giorgio Moroder did with 'Midnight Express'. Noise? ... Words are just noise...and - quoting (I think) Duke Ellington: there are only two kinds of music: Good and Bad.



Ok I don't pretend to know either of you that well,and I need that non verbal aspect of face to face discussion to really understand one's ethos.however-

@Baron- you kinda surprised me with that "noise" comment.Maybe you meant it tongue in cheek,I admit I'm not sure,but it leaves me feeling a bit cold at present.I'll try to explain why I write music.

I love score.I am a score composer.I am not a song writer.as a matter of fact,I wish I was,but it's just not my passion.I love being part of telling stories.maybe more then the music,I do love how music underscores the story however.So much so,that I now almost never talk about music at all during spotting sessions.I talk about the story.Things like,"what is the importance of this scene?,who is the focus on?who is going through the most change.Who has the emotional power.Who or what does this scene mean to the whole story.As I've discovered,directors love to talk about the charactors,the story,where it lives,who is it for.What is at stake.More to the hero,what is he/she like,what would they listen to music wise?can that be useful in the score-or not.It's about creating a network of associations that can lead you to understand how to best tell that story.How much music,where,for what purpose,are you linking the emotional rise,or are you matching movement-the old adage that music during scenes with strong movement is justified.
Music has the effect of altering our perception of time.I tend to see it as "no score on a scene"="the scene runs at real time",the speed of dialog,or real world time as we understand it in terms of a conversation.This to me is the default reset,or digital black for score.
When music is added to a scene,especially when going from no music to music up,there is a perceived acceleration of time,time speeds up for the viewer.It still works to this day.Even a simple soft swell up from nothing will invoke a strong reaction from a director,especially the in point,as they can be super keyed into the timing of the dialog and any inflection point in the scene.This is not stuff for the faint of heart,you must really get on board and understand the innate sense of timing the director is super attuned to.
Yes there are times a scene just needs you to get out a big fat brush and slather on the intensity,never mind the intricacies,it's all about the power and energy.But remember that we are playing god,and size and power mean nothing without contrast.Which is why everytime you have a big giant scare in a horror movie,you always have silence before it.It makes the jolt that much more intense.
We are playing psychiatrists,we play slight of hand,like a magician,I can make you feel a certain way about a scene,no regard if the images are happy or sad,I can push it in the direction I want you to feel.I can make you look at the right person onscreen,by simply adjusting the tone.I can make you see something in them that didn't exist before.Trust me,I can't tell you how many times a director stated that they didn't get what they wanted out of someone,is there anything we can do?of course there is,if you're willing to step up.
What I mean to say by all this dithering,is that score is about a whole lot of things not usually thought of as being associated with writing music.It's about understanding the part music can play in a much larger entity,the play-be it a film,a tv show,whatever.Wherever the suspension of disbelief must to maintained.And to that point,the telling of any story ,the edits,the pace,all of that has an innate sense of rythmn.You learn to feel it right away.It's like you're being drawn into it.You feel the hearbeat-but here's the kicker-the intent of all this music is to alter your perception-without you being fully aware of it.Yes it sounds like noise cause you are listening to dialog.But it's there doing it's job.The job of not being noticed,but take it away,and the absence reveals the falsehood of the premise the movie stands on.
anyway,I've blathered on enough.and no,I don't wear cool socks,just black socks.After a fateful horseback riding event where I wore white socks,and my sister in law was so shocked,she has given my black socks for xmas five years in a row.I only wear black socks now.Black socks.black...


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## Assa (May 24, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> You're wasting you time listening to people like Goldsmith in todays market.



Well in that case I gladly waste a lot of my time :D I wonder why you chose Goldsmith as an example. IMO he is an influence for a lot of recent music which we'd classify as epic music.

I don't excactly understand that kind of attitude. Sure, a lot of music might sound dated, but imo that is no reason for ignoring it. I personally think a lot can be learned by studying older music, no matter how inappropriate it might be or not be for todays market.


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## givemenoughrope (May 24, 2016)

"Wasting" time on Goldsmith? His music IS American film scoring. Chinatown, The Omen, LA Confidential, Planet of the Apes, Capricorn One, The Twilight Zone (The four of us are Dying), Rambo, etc. The list goes on. Listen to JNH's The Fugitive. It's Goldsmith. His influence/part of that scoring tradition is still everywhere.


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## Mundano (May 24, 2016)

Best thread in a while...!


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## karelpsota (May 24, 2016)

As RcTec previously mentioned, there's too many composers focused on composition. The tech and orchestration jobs are the best way to get in.

You can learn these skills by first assisting score mixing engineers or someone else that works around the composer.


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## Christof (May 25, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> You're wasting you time listening to people like Goldsmith in todays market.


This is quite arrogant and pretentious in my opinion.
Todays market as you call it is based on Goldsmith.Mozart.Mahler.Schönberg.Korngold.Williams.Bach.Kraftwerk.The list is endless.
Love the tread!


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## Baron Greuner (May 25, 2016)

givemenoughrope said:


> "Wasting" time on Goldsmith? His music IS American film scoring. Chinatown, The Omen, LA Confidential, Planet of the Apes, Capricorn One, The Twilight Zone (The four of us are Dying), Rambo, etc. The list goes on. Listen to JNH's The Fugitive. It's Goldsmith. His influence/part of that scoring tradition is still everywhere.



Oh fckme! Don't you understand sarcasm when you read it? 

That's exactly my point. In order to put out that kind of material it's probably a good idea to have formal, musical training.

Jesus some of you guys are frakking dull!


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## Baron Greuner (May 25, 2016)

karelpsota said:


> As RcTec previously mentioned, there's too many composers focused on composition. The tech and orchestration jobs are the best way to get in.
> 
> You can learn these skills by first assisting score mixing engineers or someone else that works around the composer.



That's right and then you can go out on your own eventually and make even more of a bloody racket.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (May 25, 2016)

Christof said:


> This is quite arrogant and pretentious in my opinion.



That's Baron


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## Daryl (May 25, 2016)

To get back to the OP's subject, I think that we've shown that there are various things needed from an assistant, depending on workflow of composer.

Some composers only want technical help/keeping things running, some want administrative help/keeping track of things/reconforming, some need more musical tech, like editing and bouncing files/stems, some would like programming, which might be sequencing samples, or programming synths.

So it all depends on your skills what role you would be most suited to.

One caveat. HZ has touched on it, but just to spell it out; being an assistant is not a definite route to becoming a composer. It might be, but you need to be very clear that you are being hired for your assisting skills, not your composing skills.


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## chillbot (May 25, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> Some Music colleges are terrible and some are incredible. You have to choose wisely!


This is also true of the same colleges/universities from year-to-year. Music technology and the real world changes so fast it's easy to render yourself useless if the head of the department isn't intelligent and proactive in staying on top of it. And brings in real-world working composers (even more-or-less unknowns), not retired or out-of-work types (who may be big names) who love talking up the "glory years" of how it used to be. If I had to choose a school again I would base it solely on the current head of the music/film department, and especially never based on every school's long-winded list of prestigious alumni.

When I was at Berklee we were still editing on a moviola even though the real world was using Pro Tools. I felt like I wasted four years of my life. But I know that recently during George S. Clinton's tenure it was a completely different department and I wish I had been there.


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## chillbot (May 25, 2016)

Daryl said:


> Some composers only want technical help/keeping things running, some want administrative help/keeping track of things/reconforming, some need more musical tech, like editing and bouncing files/stems, some would like programming, which might be sequencing samples, or programming synths.


I just want another me.


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## Daryl (May 25, 2016)

chillbot said:


> I just want another me.


Why? Can't you write your own music?


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## chillbot (May 25, 2016)

Maybe I just need a drinking buddy. Actually I would like to work either twice as fast or twice as good or at the very least work around the clock, sleeping is lame. I need someone that can do exactly what I do, I don't know how else to put it. But they don't have the contacts or work yet to do it without me. A mini me.


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## Daryl (May 25, 2016)

chillbot said:


> Maybe I just need a drinking buddy. Actually I would like to work either twice as fast or twice as good or at the very least work around the clock, sleeping is lame. I need someone that can do exactly what I do, I don't know how else to put it. But they don't have the contacts or work yet to do it without me. A mini me.


I can't imagine anything worse, TBH. All that second guessing from some other cocky little git who thinks he knows everything. No thanks. 

If you don't mind a little bit of advice form someone else who finds it difficult to delegate, I think you need to make sure that you do the things that only you can do. Such as create. Everything else should be up for grabs. Then you don't need to work silly hours, or even get bored, and can take time off.


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## jononotbono (May 25, 2016)

chillbot said:


> This is also true of the same colleges/universities from year-to-year. Music technology and the real world changes so fast it's easy to render yourself useless if the head of the department isn't intelligent and proactive in staying on top of it. And brings in real-world working composers (even more-or-less unknowns), not retired or out-of-work types (who may be big names) who love talking up the "glory years" of how it used to be. If I had to choose a school again I would base it solely on the current head of the music/film department, and especially never based on every school's long-winded list of prestigious alumni.
> 
> When I was at Berklee we were still editing on a moviola even though the real world was using Pro Tools. I felt like I wasted four years of my life. But I know that recently during George S. Clinton's tenure it was a completely different department and I wish I had been there.



Spot on man. The first time I studied I had actually just left the Army and was desperate to be in a different World so I didn't realise all of that at the time. I just wanted to carry on with music because it's what I've done since a little kid. I hated studying Music. I learnt more from buying a mixing desk, a compressor and actually just getting out there gigging by myself etc. The tutors were all out of date. Dinosaurs that had retired and had no idea of the real World. Even teaching putting Audio to video when none of them had ever done anything like that for a living. Some of them literally only having Music degrees and then went straight from their college to teach people to just get degrees! It was ridiculous! Haha! Still, you live and learn! I swore I would never study again and yes, the Internet is marvellous for learning - providing you know where to look and who to listen to because there's so much nonsense and misinformation "out there". Now I am studying again, loving it, learning a lot, meeting some great and talented people and above all having fun. All the tutors know the business and work in it. Providing the course and the tutors are right (and as you say - "staying on top of it") then it's also up to the individual because you get out what you put in with any of this stuff. I would love to learn everything an assistant learns but I don't think my skills are good enough yet to even apply for something like that so I continue to get better and who knows what the future holds. Being around so many professionals that utterly love what they do, and are successful at what they do is only going to be a great thing. And the pressure and stress involved around that is most likely not for everyone. And we can sleep when we die.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (May 25, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> And we can sleep when we die.



Or when we move our consciousness to a synthetic body and won't need to sleep anymore. High hopes...


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## Daryl (May 25, 2016)

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> Or when we move our consciousness to a synthetic body and won't need to sleep anymore. High hopes...


Noooooooooooooooooooooo. I love my sleep. I even like the waking up in the morning. It's just the getting up that I have a problem with.


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## chillbot (May 25, 2016)

I hate having to sleep so much. What a waste. And being tired. And getting old and not being able to function on 2-3 hours sleep per night anymore. :(


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## Daryl (May 25, 2016)

chillbot said:


> I hate having to sleep so much. What a waste. And being tired. And getting old and not being able to function on 2-3 hours sleep per night anymore. :(


I love it. Life is so much more important than work, and sleep is a part of that. However, I can understand your frustration., if you feel that there are not enough hours in the day.


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## InLight-Tone (May 25, 2016)

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> Or when we move our consciousness to a synthetic body and won't need to sleep anymore. High hopes...


That's insanity at best, time to spend time in nature...


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## Gerhard Westphalen (May 25, 2016)

Daryl said:


> One caveat. HZ has touched on it, but just to spell it out; being an assistant is not a definite route to becoming a composer. It might be, but you need to be very clear that you are being hired for your assisting skills, not your composing skills.



I think that unfortunately being an assistant isn't a potential career either in most cases (unless you're Mark Wherry) and it would be more difficult to make a decent living than being a film composer. Looking at most of the people who've taken on smaller rolls at RCP (like technical scoring assistant) they usually tend to start getting more musical roles and bigger roles like scoring their own films. I wish that being a film scoring tech assistant was a viable option as a career. Maybe I'm wrong and the techs at RCP make just as much money as the composers.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (May 25, 2016)

InLight-Tone said:


> time to spend time in nature...



Nature? That's a new virtual reality game? An app?


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## Daryl (May 25, 2016)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> I think that unfortunately being an assistant isn't a potential career either in most cases (unless you're Mark Wherry)


That depends on who you work for and how good you are. If your composer is making £500+K a year and you make it easy for him/her, you will be well paid.



Gerhard Westphalen said:


> and it would be more difficult to make a decent living than being a film composer.


Theoretically. However remember that if you're an assistant, your composer is already successful. It is true that you will never earn as much as HZ, but there are many film composers who earn less than some assistants, simply because the budgets for work that they get offered is also low.



Gerhard Westphalen said:


> Looking at most of the people who've taken on smaller rolls at RCP (like technical scoring assistant) they usually tend to start getting more musical roles and bigger roles like scoring their own films. I wish that being a film scoring tech assistant was a viable option as a career. Maybe I'm wrong and the techs at RCP make just as much money as the composers.


Yes, but read what HZ wrote. You also shouldn't be comparing the composers' fess at RC with the assistant's fess. You should be comparing the assistant's salaries with the majority of film composers.

Disclaimer: I have no idea how much a assistant at RC earns. Nor do I care, as it's irrelevant to how much I pay the people who work for me.


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## Baron Greuner (May 25, 2016)

karelpsota said:


> As RcTec previously mentioned, there's too many composers focused on composition.



Really? Name me Five?.....hahahahaaaaaaaa

Hah!


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## givemenoughrope (May 25, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> Oh fckme! Don't you understand sarcasm when you read it?



Not always, no. With all the dumb shite swirling around it's hard to tell.



Baron Greuner said:


> Jesus some of you guys are frakking dull!



You have no idea how dull I can be.


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## Baron Greuner (May 25, 2016)

There are two types of musician. One that is not trained, and one that is trained. I've been both. Trust me. Trained is better.

There are definitive parameters that constitute what music is. There can be good music, indifferent music and bad music.
Anything that does not fulfil what constitutes the form of a musical expression, is noise.

Noise is noise. It's neither good, bad or indifferent and is generally put together by a person or persons in front of a computer screen that have managed to stop playing with themselves for at least 5 minutes.


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## kunst91 (May 25, 2016)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> I think that unfortunately being an assistant isn't a potential career either in most cases (unless you're Mark Wherry) and it would be more difficult to make a decent living than being a film composer. Looking at most of the people who've taken on smaller rolls at RCP (like technical scoring assistant) they usually tend to start getting more musical roles and bigger roles like scoring their own films. I wish that being a film scoring tech assistant was a viable option as a career. Maybe I'm wrong and the techs at RCP make just as much money as the composers.



Re: salary, it all depends. When you first start out it's typically pretty low but livable, but if you work for a composer who is already doing very well and then become indispensable to his/her operation, you can start making a great deal more. It obviously depends on the situation and the composer, but I wouldn't write it off just yet, especially if the tech work IS your passion.


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## rgames (May 25, 2016)

Regarding the value of a music degree - I can't see how it would be a disadvantage UNLESS it leaves you with a ton of debt. I always tell people to look at the career paths of those they admire and try something similar (noting the debt exception).

Regarding assistant positions, I won't pretend to have deep insight into a bunch of examples in the composer world but I do have insight into a lot of other similar situations and I can tell you this: techs almost never become the creative.

If you're first a composer and secondarily interested in the tech my guess is you'll be unhappy with a tech position.

If you're primarily interested in the tech and secondarily in the music then you'll probably be much happier with a tech position. I imagine you'll also be much more desirable as a tech.

rgames


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## SillyMidOn (May 26, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> That's right and then you can go out on your own eventually and make even more of a bloody racket.


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## Baron Greuner (May 26, 2016)

Here's one for people here that would like to be a musician. Like say, a flute player.


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## ghostnote (May 26, 2016)

If you have to choose between a remote and an in house position, always choose the in house one. Insist on it when they try to offer you a remote position and don't work for a maybe. The Internet has its barriers and in the end fancy socks won't help if you sell yourself too short.


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## XiphiasAudio (Jun 3, 2016)

Love this thread. What about Location? For people who live down under. We all now theres like, what, a *handful* of composers here but pretty sure none of them can afford an assistant haha!

Whats the consensus to relocating?


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## Jdiggity1 (Jun 3, 2016)

XiphiasAudio said:


> Love this thread. What about Location? For people who live down under. We all now theres like, what, a *handful* of composers here but pretty sure none of them can afford an assistant haha!


If you know who to contact, you can get work doing mockups and the odd software/tech support, but you're right, there is very little assistant work down here.


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## chillbot (Jun 3, 2016)

Jdiggity1 said:


> If you know who to contact, you can get work doing mockups and the odd software/tech support, but you're right, there is very little assistant work down here.


You should move to LA. Slacker.


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## JoeBarlow (Jun 3, 2016)

chillbot said:


> You should move to LA. Slacker.


Can't move to LA because I have no job (uk with a degree but need an employers reference). Can't get a job because I'm not in LA. Catch 22!


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## chillbot (Jun 3, 2016)

JoeBarlow said:


> Can't move to LA because I have no job (uk with a degree but need an employers reference). Can't get a job because I'm not in LA. Catch 22!


Sounds like a bunch of excuses. Joking... sort of.


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## dgburns (Jun 3, 2016)

chillbot said:


> Sounds like a bunch of excuses. Joking... sort of.



have synth.....will travel


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## robteehan (Jun 4, 2016)

I moved to LA a year ago from Canada. When I arrived, I already had a job lined up with an Emmy-winning composer. I'm still working as his assistant.

How I did it:

Two years before the move, met the Boss at a film-scoring workshop at which he was one of the faculty. Politely got his contact info at the end and informed him of my intention to move to LA. The next year, made two separate trips six months apart to scout the city. First one for a week, second for a month. Had lunch / coffee with every single person I knew. Met with Boss once on each trip. On the second meeting he floated the possibility of me taking over as his current assistant was *maybe* leaving. Flew home and sent a very detailed resume and demo reel and it took a few months before I got the word that it was a go. By that time my visa application was already rolling.

Here's why I think this worked.
- He liked my work and saw potential in me
- Despite the fact that I was severely lacking in tech skills, my resume is full of examples where I threw myself into difficult situations and figured it out.
- I impressed upon him that I was coming to LA job or no job, it was my dream and I was prepared to grind it out, and I had resources and skills to scrape together a living. This removed anxiety that he would be responsible for my survival.
- I expressed enthusiasm for learning from Boss through osmosis & proximity while grinding out mundane non-musical studio tasks. 
- He and I are simpatico, we get along well, and I talked to him like a normal person and not someone that I was desperate to get something from.

Less than six months after I started, I recommended my roommate (who is an amazing dude) to Boss' co-writer who was expanding his own studio, and my friend is now THAT guy's assistant.

Lesson learned - you need a personal connection to get a job in this town. Start one by meeting composers at a film event or workshop like I did, or through other people you know. You say you're in a small town in the UK - get your ass to London pronto. If you're not ready to move yet, do a scouting mission, but put it to the forefront of your mind. A HUGE number of assistants here in LA are grads of UCLA or USC film-scoring programs because working composers are friends with the faculty and trust their recommendations. Also you really need to look at yourself and evaluate the skills that make you "hireable". I was not a tech expert by any means but my musical resume was very deep (I'm in my early thirties now). That helped my case. If you're not an expert composer you need to be an expert tech. Another friend of mine who works for another composer did a degree in computer engineering before doing a music degree. Think he's a valuable assistant? You bet.


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## AllanH (Jun 4, 2016)

Having hired a lot of people in different industries over the years, here my bottom line: Candidates who focus on what they can contribute often succeed, if the skills and _personalities_ match. Candidates who focus on what they will be getting out of the job/gig rarely end up contributing.

So I think there is an attitude and "vocabulary" aspect to getting hired and succeeding: focus on what you can contribute and the rest will generally work out if you're the right fit with skills and personality.


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## bc3po (Jun 4, 2016)

robteehan said:


> I moved to LA a year ago from Canada. When I arrived, I already had a job lined up with an Emmy-winning composer. I'm still working as his assistant.
> 
> How I did it:
> 
> ...


I think you mostly nailed it. I know some composers that really want experienced techs, but plenty (myself included) that would even prefer someone enthusiastic and is willing to work and learn. Years ago when I was Ramin's tech I had ZERO knowledge about tech stuff (I hadn't even opened pro tools at that stage in my life)


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## JoeBarlow (Jun 8, 2016)

@robteehan Amazing information, thank you! Definitely the depth I was hoping someone would go into about first getting into contact with people. 

@bc3po How long ago did you start as Ramin's tech? It seems crazy that you would have such limited technical experience, you must really be able to sell yourself haha!


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## bc3po (Jun 9, 2016)

JoeBarlow said:


> @robteehan Amazing information, thank you! Definitely the depth I was hoping someone would go into about first getting into contact with people.
> 
> @bc3po How long ago did you start as Ramin's tech? It seems crazy that you would have such limited technical experience, you must really be able to sell yourself haha!



I was Ramin's tech 2010/11 and his writing assistant 2011-2013. I think the most important thing to RD and to me (when interviewing my replacements and other assistants) is that the tech has a good attitude, work ethnic and is a quick learner. There's so much to learn and the rigs were so unique (back in 2000s and into 2010s, things have gotten a little simpler recently) that there's no way someone could have known all that. There are some growing pains, and not everyone makes it. It is definitely sink or swim, but I'm not sure what the alternative is and its worked for us thus far.


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## Daniel James (Jun 9, 2016)

Being an assistant takes a certain type of person I think. Its a completely different job to being in a creative position (ie composer, sound designer, mixer)

I have only ever been an assistant to a composer once in my life and I realised the skills that make you good at that job are very different to the skills I had been developing as a composer.
To put it bluntly I was shit at it lol, I am terrible at making coffee, I never really cared much for setting up sample slaves or working with the technology other than to meet my ends at any given point, I am really bad at DIY and helping to build studios or run cable. And thats the reason I knew then and there I would have to rely on the skills I DO have in order to make any progress in the industry. I couldn't have my career judged on my inability to make coffee, I couldn't have my career defined by how poor I am at putting together furniture. So as much as I REALLY didn't want to stop working at this job, I left that position to make way for someone who could actually help in that capacity....and like I said it takes a certain mindset to do it well, which I think the composer I worked for would benefit considerably more.

Luckily I was able to step back and assess what I am and where I can put my skills to proper use. And not 2 years later I achieved my life goal of working on a Metal Gear Solid game and have literally since then gone from one exciting project to the next.....and that isn't a boastful statement of hey look what I did, but more a note that once I figured out my place, where I am good and where I am shit, where I can be of use to others and where I am a burden, when to take on a project of my own or offer my skills for someone else, I started getting the work I had always wanted and was able to be an asset.

So yeah figure out what you have to offer and what skills you have or want to learn......then figure out what you want to achieve. Then knowing what to do next, or what path to pursue will be much easier.

-DJ


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## JoeBarlow (Jun 10, 2016)

Daniel James said:


> and that isn't a boastful statement of hey look what I did, but more a note that once I figured out my place, where I am good and where I am shit, where I can be of use to others and where I am a burden, when to take on a project of my own or offer my skills for someone else, I started getting the work I had always wanted and was able to be an asset.



It doesn't come off as boastful Daniel, really great advice from someone who has come from both sides of it!


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## Smikes77 (Jun 11, 2016)

Daniel James said:


> Being an assistant takes a certain type of person I think. Its a completely different job to being in a creative position (ie composer, sound designer, mixer)
> 
> I have only ever been an assistant to a composer once in my life and I realised the skills that make you good at that job are very different to the skills I had been developing as a composer.
> To put it bluntly I was shit at it lol, I am terrible at making coffee, I never really cared much for setting up sample slaves or working with the technology other than to meet my ends at any given point, I am really bad at DIY and helping to build studios or run cable. And thats the reason I knew then and there I would have to rely on the skills I DO have in order to make any progress in the industry. I couldn't have my career judged on my inability to make coffee, I couldn't have my career defined by how poor I am at putting together furniture. So as much as I REALLY didn't want to stop working at this job, I left that position to make way for someone who could actually help in that capacity....and like I said it takes a certain mindset to do it well, which I think the composer I worked for would benefit considerably more.
> ...




Did you learn how to use fmod or wwise along your journey?


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## Daniel James (Jun 11, 2016)

Smikes77 said:


> Did you learn how to use fmod or wwise along your journey?


As an assistant no but they are very easy to learn yourself online!

-DJ


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