# Chromatic Third Relations



## Roland Mac (Jul 3, 2007)

Im sure everyone hear has dabbled with this at one time or another - using chords in chromatic third relations with one another. Typically roots move cycles of major or minor thirds using chords of similar quality.

My question is this - do you (ie, yourself) base these progressions on a particular scale, or do you use them freely as chromatic chords within otherwise diatonic progressions?

I used to use the latter method, taking such chords from other modes, chromatically altering the root position, etc, and fitting them in with generally diatonic progressions.

For instance, I often like to use (bVII, V) at a cadence when in a major key. Or sometimes I like to use (i, #iii) or (i, vi) in a minor key. Sometimes I like to use chromatic mediant relationships in modulation too.

However, recently I've been listening to a lot of Scriabin, and seeing how he used the octatonic scale and other scales as the basic of such progressions. Indeed, using the octatonic, one can build major or minor triads on C, Eb, F#, A (with possible transitions up and down a semitone), this being the classic false minor third progression.

Im curious to know how you guys use such progressions. Indeed, there is nothing to prevent one form simply using what sounds good! Likewise, one can base their progressions strictly to the given pitch content of a particular scale / s.

RM


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## bluejay (Jan 25, 2008)

Wow, I can't believe I missed this post the first time around.

Roland are you still looking into this? I checked out a book which goes into excrutiating detail on the subject ...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chromatic-Transformations-Nineteenth-Century-Cambridge-Analysis/dp/0521028493/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201258864&sr=1-1 (Chromatic Transformations - Nineteenth Century) 

The other related chord change would surely be the tritone root movement which again the octatonic scale seems to support.

I really love the sound of these chord progressions so I'd be interested if you've gone further with this.


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## JohnG (Jan 30, 2008)

is the Scriabin harmony based on a half-step, whole-step scale by any chance?


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## aeneas (Jan 30, 2008)

JohnG @ Wed 30 Jan said:


> is the Scriabin harmony based on a half-step, whole-step scale by any chance?


That is the octatonic scale, yes, Scriabin uses it occasionally, but his harmony is more like an expansion of the mainstream chromaticism of the Romantics. Here is some fun octatonic stuff: http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~krr2/ct_octindex.html

This is an interesting topic indeed, good idea to revive it, bluejay. The harmonic relations of thirds (major and minor, ascendant and descendant, changing or not changing the mode) seems to be en vogue, somewhat overused nowadays in film music, along with the minor second relation between triads (same modes, different modes). They are good techniques to master and to make conscious, although I don't believe there is anything special about those relations, therefore I don't believe in using any of them just for the sake of using it. However, those relations can provide good harmonic chains one could build upon and experiment (anyways, 'fresher', IMO, than the ol' circle of fifths, for example, or other cliches...)


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## bluejay (Jan 31, 2008)

Interesting points Aeneas.

For me I think the chromatic mediant ideas work for a few reasons but mostly because they give a sense of motion and have an almost cadential quality without actually going anywhere, i.e. the end chord seems to be just as tense as the starting chord. 

I often liken a string of chromatic mediant changes to the Escher's staircase ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascending_and_Descending ) where they seem to keep half resolving without ever coming to rest.

This is great for music where you need to keep some element of movement without really coming to rest (such as underneath dialogue).

Also, I guess Jerry Goldsmith and John Williams used them so much that they are very much part of the vocabulary.


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