# Cubase popularity with orchestral/hybrid/soundtrack music?



## Puzzlefactory (Mar 21, 2017)

I've noticed with a lot of videos I've watched and from people's posts on this forum, that Cubase seems to be extremely popular as a daw for orchestral composition. 

What are people's thoughts on why that is?

I haven't used cubase since it's been on the Atari. Instead I'm a long term Logic user (and short term Ableton user). So I'm wondering why Cubase seems to be the DAW of choice. 

Also wondering what are people's comparison of cubase vs logic for composition and orchestration?


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## Jaap (Mar 21, 2017)

To be honest this pops up every now and then and there are already a lot of topics on this matter and a quick search on the term Cubase (and tick "search titles only") should generate a decent amount of topics.

To be honest the difference ain't that big between all major DAW's and every one has it plus and negatives. I was a Sonar user for a long time and I switched to Cubase in around 2011 I believe. Cubase was better at handeling video work and also expression maps got me interested and Cubase got very allround, but you see also major composers using Logic (John Powell) and at the end it is just what suites your workflow the best, but changing to Cubase won't make your composing and orchestration life more easy then when you stick around with Logic.


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## Saxer (Mar 21, 2017)

The main argument for Cubase was expression maps. But this advantage is gone since SkiSwitcher, ARTzID, AG Toolkit and the Babylonwaves Art Conductor (so actually more keyswitch choices than Cubase). Multiple controller lanes might be another argument for Cubase (which I miss in Logic too).

The reason for me to stay in Logic is the score editor, the screen sets and the interactive editor windows. I never have to open and close editor windows. All windows I need are open all the time and show the content of all selected regions/parts/clips as a list, as notation and as piano roll. It makes me mad looking the Cubase YT videos and see people opening and closing overlaping windows all the time. A lot of Logic users don't use screen sets at all which for me seems like a big mistake!

I do all my notation in Logic too, from lead sheet to orchestral score. That's also nothing any other DAW could replace.

And maybe Cubase users just like to make more YT videos.


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## samphony (Mar 21, 2017)

And it is also hard to compare the two because if you are seriously working on achieving great compositions it really doesn't matter what you are using just how you use it and know your workarounds. you can't master all DAWs inside out!

I know it doesn't answer your question per se...


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## samphony (Mar 21, 2017)

Also I'm with @Saxer on what he said. Once you get the hold of logics screen sets, track and project alternatives, the mighty region folders, score editor, there is no need to compare. 

It just shows that all these DAWs are in someways very deep and you will reveal a lot of very good things and some bad you'll have to learn working around them. 

And if you can get involved to make the DAW you like to use even better by providing feedback. 

Oh and by the way no matter what DAW you are using it doesn't make you a better composer by committing to a certain one. It's not the tools you're looking for!


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## Puzzlefactory (Mar 21, 2017)

Obviously I realise that the daw won't make a better composer (a good composer can write with a pen and paper). 

I was just curious about the popularity. I thought maybe there were some features that made workflow faster in particular for orchestral composition...?

I also wondered if Apple were becoming so unpopular, that people were using Cubase just so they didn't have to buy a Mac (which is something I'm seriously considering with my next computer purchase, even though I loathe Windows)...?

As for screensets, mine are pretty uncomplicated. I usually just have one monitor displaying arrange page and another displaying either mixer or piano roll editor.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 21, 2017)

I have helped a goodly number of composers move from Cubase (and DP and PT btw) to Logic. Most stayed with it, some went back.

I know a number of composers who moved from Logic to Cubase. Most stayed with it, some went back.

The best DAW is the one you are most skilled with using and becoming skilled with using it is largely a function of hours and patience spent learning about it.

People who I help tell me all the time how brilliant I am, etc. I always say, "No. The only reason I know what I know is that I have spent a ridiculous amount of hours doing it."


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## Puzzlefactory (Mar 21, 2017)

I think for me it's going to come down to whether I can justify buying another apple computer. 

I do like Logic but I'm finding it harder and harder to see where the money's going with a Mac. 

Obviously I understand inflation and having to pay more for more powerful machines, but recently it seems like Apple are making us pay more for machines that are less powerful and have fewer features/components than their predecessors.


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## WorshipMaestro (Mar 21, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> I think for me it's going to come down to whether I can justify buying another apple computer.
> 
> I do like Logic but I'm finding it harder and harder to see where the money's going with a Mac.
> 
> Obviously I understand inflation and having to pay more for more powerful machines, but recently it seems like Apple are making us pay more for machines that are less powerful and have fewer features/components than their predecessors.



You know that you can run Cubase on both platforms, yes?

The last project I did I regularly moved between working on the Mac system at work and the Windows system I have at home. The only issue was having to define the path to sample libraries when opening on the "other" OS, but other than that minor issue it was no big deal to open a Cubase file saved on one system on the other.


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## Puzzlefactory (Mar 21, 2017)

No, I realise that (I've jumped between my Mac and windows laptop with Ableton). 

But I'm reluctant to switch to Cubase while still on a Mac, when I have Logic already installed (at a fraction of the price). At least not without a reason to make the switch.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 21, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> I think for me it's going to come down to whether I can justify buying another apple computer.
> 
> I do like Logic but I'm finding it harder and harder to see where the money's going with a Mac.
> 
> Obviously I understand inflation and having to pay more for more powerful machines, but recently it seems like Apple are making us pay more for machines that are less powerful and have fewer features/components than their predecessors.



I don't disagree. But I care more about Logic than the platform and since I have a slave PC, my demands on a Mac are not as great.


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## Puzzlefactory (Mar 21, 2017)

Yeah, having a slave computer is something I've been considering recently. I've got a copy of VEpro gathering dust somewhere, so am thinking of slaving my PC laptop up with all the non-NKS libraries in.


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Mar 21, 2017)

Another great tool for articulation switching (I use it with Cubase) is Transmidifier by Brian Wherry :







It sits between your DAW and your VSTi's and/or between your controller(s) and your DAW. Very powerful ! Check this video :


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## mjsalam (Mar 21, 2017)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> Another great tool for articulation switching (I use it with Cubase) is Transmidifier by Brian Wherry :
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Why this vs. native expression maps? (Only thing I can think of is cross DAW compatibility)


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## Saxer (Mar 21, 2017)

Thanks for the Transmidifier tip. Looks interesting!

If I'd have a reason to leave Logic it would be the possibility to choose the OS platform. Doesn't mean I'm a great Windows fan (I'm not) but it's always better to have a choice. The Apple update strain (new OS every year, new Apps don't run on older OS, new OS doesn't run on older hardware) is a PITA and doesn't really make things better.
But if I have to change DAW some day I'd probably choose Reaper.


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## mjsalam (Mar 21, 2017)

Saxer said:


> Thanks for the Transmidifier tip. Looks interesting!
> 
> If I'd have a reason to leave Logic it would be the possibility to choose the OS platform. Doesn't mean I'm a great Windows fan (I'm not) but it's always better to have a choice. The Apple update strain (new OS every year, new Apps don't run on older OS, new OS doesn't run on older hardware) is a PITA and doesn't really make things better.
> But if I have to change DAW some day I'd probably choose Reaper.



I feel the same way. I've been caught between Logic and Cubase for some time. I just have this anxiety surrounding Apple, their commitment to Logic, their commitment to Pro Audio, and my continued ability/desire to afford their systems (despite how much I like them). Cross platform is very appealing although I too am not a Windows fan at all. Cubase has a lot of features but the workflow seems kind of chaotic as if the features are just kind of slapped on without too much regard for how it all fits together whereas Logic feels much more tight and considered.


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## Vik (Mar 22, 2017)

I think Logic is great except in the areas that interest me the most. Those are:
Articulation Control
Automation of sample libraries
Composing oriented features
Notation


So after 25-30 years of using Logic I bought Cubase and Dorico. I don't regret it. But always takes time to become fluent in new apps, and it will also take some time before Dorico will get many of the still missing features.


http://vi-control.net/community/thr...ram-for-work-with-orchestral-libraries.43016/

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/apple-logic-pro/1070899-favourite-logic-pro-wishes-part-two.html

http://vi-control.net/community/thr...r-logic-and-work-with-sample-libraries.52493/


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## mjsalam (Mar 22, 2017)

Vik said:


> I think Logic is great except in the areas that interest me the most. Those are:
> Articulation Control
> Automation of sample libraries
> Composing oriented features
> ...



I've been using AG Toolkit for Logic articulation and I personally think it's the best solution out there even when compared with Cubase expression maps. Although I am considering looking into Transmidifier based on another forum members recommendation. Not sure what you mean by "automation of sampler libraries". I can't think of an issue I've experienced in logic on this front?


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## luke_7 (Mar 22, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> I have helped a goodly number of composers move from Cubase (and DP and PT btw) to Logic. Most stayed with it, some went back.
> 
> I know a number of composers who moved from Logic to Cubase. Most stayed with it, some went back.
> 
> ...





+1


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## Vik (Mar 22, 2017)

mjsalam said:


> Not sure what you mean by "automation of sampler libraries"


The workflow for region/track (CC) automation could be a lot better, in many ways, especially if you, like many, want to be able to use both real time recording of automation data and draw/edit automation data with the pencil tool. Some of the implementation suggests an extremely cumbersome workflow - for instance the fact that Smart Control only see the first 8 CC numbers, or thati f you have manually assigned some CCs in Kontakt, they appear in the pop-up menu (click where it says Volume in the track list header), but at the bottom of the list, which is 512 items long so not only does it it take several seconds to scroll all the way down, but lots of people won't even recognise that there's something at the bottom of that ling list, so they won't scroll that far down. 
The same problem goes for automatically assigned stuff: With CSS, for instance, some parameters are auto-displayed, but again - but at the bottom of that very long list. I could mention several other counterintuitive solutions as well, but this is about Cubase - and one thing which made me decide to buy Cubase was that several of the things that takes a lot of time to figure out in Logic just worked in Cubase when I tired a demo some time ago. 

Regarding AG ToolKit/SkiSwitcher etc: I just want a user friendly, modern solution. 

It could be this easy: 

1) In one window, define where you want your controllers. Eg Dynamics at CC1, Vibrato at CC3 and so on. This should work globally (as a default) or only as a project setting (if desired). 
2) In another window, define how you want to control articulations. If you use MIDI notes, you should be able to use the same notes across all songs/all string libraries without having to import scripts, environment objects etc. This should also work globally (as a default) - or only as a project setting (if desired). 

Then, when you start with a blank song, Logic should automatically know what it needs to know - but allow this maps to be loaded manually, whenever needed. 

This means that when you open Berlin Strings, in any empty song, Logic should a) know that you have loaded Berlin Strings, and b) instantly let you use your chosen default MIDI keys and CC number for automation and articulation control. If this for some reason can't happen automatically, we should be able to tell Logic, with one click (choose from a popup menu), that we are now using Berlin Strings, and therefore, you can use the same faders and the asme MIDI Notes you use for CC and articulation control in all other songs/all other libraries. 

This could cover a lot of situations for a lot of people!

I could mention a lot more about cumbersomeness in Logic in these areas, but IIRR, the thread is about Cubase. 

Check out the three links I posted earlier if you are interested - there several mentions of Logic's shortcomings there.


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## TeamLeader (Mar 22, 2017)

Does Cubase handle streamers and chasers yet? If not, how are you folks handling that? And how do you work with composers using other DAWs? AAF?


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## Ashermusic (Mar 22, 2017)

Vik said:


> The workflow for region/track (CC) automation could be a lot better, in many ways, especially if you, like many, want to be able to use both real time recording of automation data and draw/edit automation data with the pencil tool. Some of the implementation suggests an extremely cumbersome workflow - for instance the fact that Smart Control only see the first 8 CC numbers, or thati f you have manually assigned some CCs in Kontakt, they appear in the pop-up menu (click where it says Volume in the track list header), but at the bottom of the list, which is 512 items long so not only does it it take several seconds to scroll all the way down, but lots of people won't even recognise that there's something at the bottom of that ling list, so they won't scroll that far down.
> The same problem goes for automatically assigned stuff: With CSS, for instance, some parameters are auto-displayed, but again - but at the bottom of that very long list. I could mention several other counterintuitive solutions as well, but this is about Cubase - and one thing which made me decide to buy Cubase was that several of the things that takes a lot of time to figure out in Logic just worked in Cubase when I tired a demo some time ago.
> 
> Regarding AG ToolKit/SkiSwitcher etc: I just want a user friendly, modern solution.
> ...



I think this is totally unrealistic. For one thing, the developers utilize MIDI ccs vastly differently from each other and from themselves, sometimes within the same library. Secondly, there is no way a computer app can know that you have loaded "Berlin Strings" and how it behaves unless you teach it that and save it. DAWS do not have artificial intelligence nor do the computers that host them.

All of the DAWS could and maybe will get better at this stuff. But as I have said many times, it is only a small percentage of the worldwide user base that is doing the kind of stuff that needs or wants this, so it unlikely to get a huge investment of time from those who do it. Which is why we have seen enterprising guys like Peter, Brian, and Ivan step up.


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## Vik (Mar 22, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> the developers utilize MIDI ccs vastly differently from each other and from themselves, sometimes within the same library.


Exactly what is unrealistic because of that? They use different CC numbers, but that's one of the main reasons the various solutions (Expression Maps, the Ski/AG stuff) etc exists. What I suggest is simply expression maps, which obviously is realistic, since Steinberg implemented it a very long time ago (a decade?). I just think the UI needs to be up to today's expectations in terms of being able to use it with as little manual reading/as few steps as possible.
Besides, the Cubase solution isn't perfect either.

And regarding articulation control, Logic actually has had Articulation IDs for many years, they just don't seem to talk directly with the outside world. There's massive room for improvement there also. And since anything that relies on MIDI channels to select articulations means limitations in several ways, a beefed up Articulation-ID solution from Apple and proper mapping solution would make Logic clearly better than the current Steinberg solution. 

"there is no way a computer app can know that you have loaded "Berlin Strings""

With several Kontakt libraries, Logic already understands what I load, including the names of both the library and which preset I use inside that library. At best Logic recognises the names of of many/all of the CC parameters as well (but it's all implemented in an awkward way). Cinematic Studio Strings, for instance, does that (with V1 and basses IIRR; see image); and my piano (Ivory II) does work well that way with Logic as well.






"Artificial Intelligence"? Call it what you want.  But some times "Smart" in Smart Controls works! 

I guess this is your main reservation:

"....and how it behaves unless you teach it that and save it".

That's why I wrote "If this for some reason can't happen automatically, we should be able to tell Logic, with one click (choose from a popup menu), that we are now using Berlin Strings". And it actually needs to allow several "maps" or presets for eg Berlin Strings as well. But all these maps could be produced by the library makers, and they could even include them with the product download - along with expression maps for Cubase and so on.


In one of the links I posted, there's a poll suggesting that the number of Cubase users is almost twice as high as the number of the #2 on that list (Logic) on this forum. 

Apple has more than 110 000 employees, and seeing how much Ski and Babylon and AG has achieved with what may be (close to) a one man company, I'm sure Apple can afford to dedicate at least one person to improve all this. Add a few more people to work with score/composer features as well, and things may become really good.


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## Vik (Mar 22, 2017)

Vik said:


> with several Kontakt libraries, Logic already understands what I load, including the name of the library and which preset I use inside that library, and at best recognise the names of of many of the CC parameters. Cinematic Studio Strings, for instance, does that (with V1 and basses IIRR; see image)


It even recognises a lot more that the 8 "smart" parameters in the smart control list, but place them at the bottom of the least user friendly list in the DAW industry - Logic's CC list:


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## Ashermusic (Mar 22, 2017)

I will leave it to Peter to respond further if he chooses. I would only say that this forum is not a microcosm of the DAW user world and so any assumptions made by discussions here gives a distorted picture of what the user base priorities are, and therefore presumably what the DAWs developers priorities are.


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