# Batman begins, and that bloody 16th note pattern never ends!



## mjc (Oct 18, 2010)

Just to clarify. Do you specifically mean the 16th minor 3rd 'de de - de de' pattern? I know I'm asking the obvious question (or should I say answer) but just making sure :mrgreen:


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## Alex W (Oct 18, 2010)

haha as I pressed submit, I knew someone must have bitched about this before, but oh well what can you do. Plus I probably said it better than Dcoscina . Just kidding Dave, you're an eloquent and beautiful man.

Aj, yes mate. Yes.


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## Frederick Russ (Oct 18, 2010)

Hilarious Alex! And so true. There has to be an better alternative to drive pieces forward without the ostinato 16th note crutch . . .


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## Hal (Oct 18, 2010)

haha am reading this while i am catually doing it myself .. i mean NOW for the current movie and the worst part is that it have not even been temped with BB :D


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## dcoscina (Oct 18, 2010)

lux @ Mon Oct 18 said:


> Alex's account has clearly been hacked by dcoscina



Lux, :roll: 


As for that ostinato, I think Alex's main contention is that it's not a particularly engaging one at that. It's basically just an alternating minor 3rd with a 16 beat pattern. If you want really crazy insane (and cool) examples of ostinati, check out John Williams' "Everybody Runs" from Minority Report, or Prokofiev's Ivan the Terrible. Herrmann wrote some excellent rhythmic ostinatos as well and Jerry Goldsmith- oh and that little known guy named Igor Stra.....cannot' remember his whole name. I think he was Russian though. :lol:


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## lux (Oct 18, 2010)

i always appreciate guys with a fantastic sense of humour. Well every thread needs a bummer.


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## dcoscina (Oct 18, 2010)

lux @ Mon Oct 18 said:


> i always appreciate guys with a fantastic sense of humour. Well every thread needs a bummer.



So you don't respond to my musical observations but rather my rolling eyes emoticon. :roll: :roll: :roll:


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## Ed (Oct 18, 2010)

Alex W @ Mon Oct 18 said:


> Seriously, who else here is getting the shits with that bloody Batman begins riff? The other day, I heard it in an ad, a TV show, a movie, then I heard it in some videogame my mate was playing. 4 times in one day, holy [email protected]#t - it's a force that can't be stopped.
> 
> 
> I think part of the reason it bugs me so much is the fact that whenever I hear it, it almost instantly removes me from the story. It's just not possible for me to ignore it.
> ...



I know what you mean Alex, but I'm going to thoroughly rip off anyone I can because Im a leech that keeps on giving. =o Basically all your ideas are belong to me, the best you can hope for is that you are too awesome that I can't rip you off convincingly, like Williams.


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## Ed (Oct 18, 2010)

Frederick Russ @ Mon Oct 18 said:


> Hilarious Alex! And so true. There has to be an better alternative to drive pieces forward without the ostinato 16th note crutch . . .



I also wonder how people coped before. ... no I mean seriously. :lol:


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## lux (Oct 18, 2010)

dcoscina @ Mon Oct 18 said:


> lux @ Mon Oct 18 said:
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> 
> > i always appreciate guys with a fantastic sense of humour. Well every thread needs a bummer.
> ...



your musical observations? what musical observations? Mentioning John Williams and a couple of more favourite of yours, the most classic and renowned movie composers? With the end of a beautiful (and pretty unknown to the most of us) Stavinsky mention.

What do you think this forum devoted to? Nouvelle cuisine?


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## Ed (Oct 18, 2010)

Oh stop fighting children, I know I would never do that......


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## dcoscina (Oct 18, 2010)

lux @ Mon Oct 18 said:


> dcoscina @ Mon Oct 18 said:
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> > lux @ Mon Oct 18 said:
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your musical observations? what musical observations? Mentioning John Williams and a couple of more favourite of yours, the most classic and renowned movie composersò-b   ìz-b   ì{-b   ì|-b   ì}-b   ì~-b   ì-b   ì€-b   ì-b   ì‚-b   ìƒ-b   ì„-b   ì…-b   ì†-b   ì‡-b   ìˆ-b   ì‰-b   ìŠ-c   ì‹-c   ìŒ-c   ì-c   ìŽ-c   ì-c   ì-c   ì‘-c   ì’-c   ì“-c   ì”-c   ì•-c   ì


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## dcoscina (Oct 18, 2010)

lux @ Mon Oct 18 said:


> dcoscina @ Mon Oct 18 said:
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> > lux @ Mon Oct 18 said:
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Whatever floats your boat dude.

P.S. I think you meant "accurate" not "acute". Learn how to spell if you're taking time and energy to diss someone.


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## Justus (Oct 18, 2010)

lux @ Mon Oct 18 said:


> Alex's account has clearly been hacked by dcoscina



I think this comment was rather funny.
I would have expected a smiley like this as an answer:
o-[][]-o


Sorry, if some of us don't speak perfect English...


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## lux (Oct 18, 2010)

dcoscina @ Mon Oct 18 said:


> lux @ Mon Oct 18 said:
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> > dcoscina @ Mon Oct 18 said:
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i can send you to the place you deserve by english words much better than you can just order a glass of water in my language, so way to go dude...

btw, i'm sick of this kind of racist comments by you and a few other members here, really. 

We are doing you a favour speaking your language. The fact you consider it a due pretty much depict your poor personality and respect of everything which lives out of your housedoor.


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## bryla (Oct 18, 2010)

Guys, could you PM this conversation and keep the thread on topic? I mean just the quotes alone....


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## mjc (Oct 18, 2010)

Didn't Hans write the themes for Transformers and gave it to Jablonsky like he did with Klaus for Pirates 1?


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## Ed (Oct 18, 2010)

Just think, now everyone is going to be using lots of single low - probably trombones - notes because of Inception. 

I've already started.



> Transformers is the only score that gets away with using it as well imho...but those scores for 4 or 5 years ago now. BTW, didn't Hans write the themes for Transformers and hand balled it off to Jablonsky like he did with Klaus for Pirates 1?



Wouldn't surprise me. I find it annoying when people say Klaus composed POTC1 when he was basically just a really good arranger.


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## bryla (Oct 18, 2010)

I'm starting a trend with long FFF flutterzeung in high piccolo register.... I'll get back to you when I've seen how the audience respond


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## lux (Oct 18, 2010)

Ed @ Mon Oct 18 said:


> Wouldn't surprise me. I find it annoying when people say Klaus composed POTC1 when he was basically just a really good arranger.



what do you mean? Wasnt he who composed the themes? in general i liked the potc score more than i supposed i would have. Zimmer's POTC 3 was so effective.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 18, 2010)

Too much agression, guys. You've both been around long enough to know that this kind of fighting is not cool here. Get under each other's skin privately, please.


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## Ed (Oct 18, 2010)

lux @ Mon Oct 18 said:


> Ed @ Mon Oct 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Wouldn't surprise me. I find it annoying when people say Klaus composed POTC1 when he was basically just a really good arranger.
> ...



Nope Zimmer wrote the themes, Im sure Klaus wrote some stuff but if you listen to Zimmer's "suite" that Klaus used its all there as far as I can tell.

Dont get me wrong, he still did a great job imo, in what I believe was a ridiculously short time.


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## lux (Oct 18, 2010)

Ed @ Mon Oct 18 said:


> lux @ Mon Oct 18 said:
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ah, didnt know that. Well all in all its a great job agreed. In general the whole movie thing has been a big surprise for me


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## mixolydian (Oct 18, 2010)

ajcmuso @ Mon Oct 18 said:


> To get back on topic...what's frustrating for me is that it's taking away from the Batman scores! The ostinato is meant to make you think of Nolan's world of Batman.


Some guys try to invent those ostinato for another series or film and make a new theme out of it, doesn't work for me. Those particular ostinato is Batman.


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## Alex W (Oct 18, 2010)

Ed @ Tue Oct 19 said:


> Just think, now everyone is going to be using lots of single low - probably trombones - notes because of Inception.
> 
> I've already started.




hahaha this made me laugh. Well that's the thing isn't it. Hans Zimmer basically represents the top of the chain in regards to what I'm going to call "accessible material."

It's accessible to the public in its simplicity, and therefore, of course creative directors also instantly love it. But it's also immediately accessible to composers themselves.

Since Hans' scores would often be conceived of with a full ensemble string patch of some sort, his music tends to be limited to "sample composing." In other words, his compositions are limited not by his musical knowledge which is obviously tremendous, but rather by the fact that he's probably noodling with a bunch of fairly low-tech patches.

Speaking strictly about sound and mix quality, he was able to really separate himself from the pack during the 90s by hammering those old ye custom London Philharmonic samples of his into every other film he scored. He still does today - I can hear them clear as day in Inception. And lets face it - those trombones, horns and string staccatos are still among the hugest sounding samples ever created. Sorry Symphobia, you're still second best in that regard. And on that point, here's something to think about - without Hans Zimmer, Symphobia in its current fantastic form wouldn't exist.

But, and I'm still talking about sound and mix quality here, the gap has significantly closed since then. Thanks to things like, well, Symphobia and the rest. Of course that hasn't prevented Hans from maintaining his position at the top. This is because he's a creative genius.

The fact is, composers get turned on by a guy like Hans. He certainly turns me on. And it's not only composers, but also mixers, engineers and producers. These people respect someone who can take a 16th note pattern, and a 2 note theme, and turn it into something unforgettably epic and effective like Batman Begins. Why? Because in addition to it fitting the movie like a glove, it's accessible.


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## David Story (Oct 18, 2010)

Hans Zimmer "The Batman theme itself is a rising two-note minor key progression"

The 16ths are the accompaniment texture, as noted by JNH. Used since the baroque.

Wonderful production in the Batman reboot, it inspires me to hire the best players, sound designers and engineers. Alex is among those, great library.


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## dcoscina (Oct 18, 2010)

I think it's serviceable but how many people listen to Batman Begins away from the film. Or The Dark Knight. I will say I do like the last track "A Dark Knight" which is like Zimmer's concert version of the main theme which is a theme, rather than that 2 note motive.


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## Alex W (Oct 18, 2010)

Dave just admit it - Hans turns you on.


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## dcoscina (Oct 18, 2010)

not really. Prokofiev, yes. Bartok, yes. Williams, mostly yes. Zimmer, mostly ambivalent. But I really don't want to go down this well trodden road again.


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## Alex W (Oct 19, 2010)

Fair enough, let's leave that chapter alone there then.

Soo... you seem to be well studied - recommend some things to me. I'm pretty sick of all the music I have at the moment, so let me know which Prokofiev / Bartok (and anything else you can think of) stuff I should give a try.


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## dcoscina (Oct 19, 2010)

Well, it depends on what you are looking for. If you want balls-to-the-walls music here are some I like:

Prokofiev:
Third Symphony, Riccardo Muti conducting
Alexander Nevsky, Previn with LSO conducting
Ivan the Terrible Oratorio, Muti conducting
Fifth Symphony, Gergiev with LSO 
Scythian Suite, Gergiev with LSO

Bartok:
Concerto for Orchestra, Dutoit w. Montreal Symphony
The Miraculous Mandarin (the opening really kicks ass), Dutoit w. Montreal Symphony Orchestra
Dance Suite- Boulez with Chicago Symphony Orchestra

Stravinsky- The Firebird Suite, Gergiev

If you look Japanese composers (I do a lot!)
Ikuma Dan, 2nd Symphony (derived from his awesome Samurai Trilogy score).

Akira Ifukube- Sinfonia Tapkura (Naxos label)


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## Alex W (Oct 19, 2010)

Thanks so much Dave, only thing I've heard is The Firebird Suite, which Aaron Sapp got me onto (which I love).

Not sure who conducted it though.

Anyway many thanks for the big list.


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## Mike Connelly (Oct 22, 2010)

Ed @ Mon Oct 18 said:


> I find it annoying when people say Klaus composed POTC1 when he was basically just a really good arranger.



That's what's going to happen when they do vague dual credits instead of breaking out individual tracks on the soundtrack.

Has it been documented who wrote what on that one? I have to say I like the score for the first one much better than either of the other two.



Alex W @ Tue Oct 19 said:


> let me know which Prokofiev / Bartok (and anything else you can think of) stuff I should give a try.



For Prokofiev, also check out his Romeo and Juliet, great stuff. There are bits of the first Harry Potter score that remind me of R&J.


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