# 88 key midi controller



## jlb (Feb 1, 2011)

Hi everyone, I need to buy a new 88 key Midi controller and I can't decide between these:

CME UF 80
Fatar VMK188+
M-Audio Oxygen 88
Akai MPK-88

I am after something with a really good hammer action, really weighty. I have heard on a lot of forums that the Fatar build quality is absolute crap?! Does anyone agree? What do you all use?

Finally are the Fatar Numa series worth the money? Or the Doepfer stuff (the one that Hans Z uses). I could possibly stretch to one of these.

Would really appreciate any opinions

jlb


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## EthanStoller (Feb 1, 2011)

jlb @ Tue Feb 01 said:


> I am after something with a really good hammer action, really weighty.


If this is your top priority, I recommend going the vintage route and grab something like the Roland A-80. There's one on eBay right now for $650. I bought one off eBay a couple months ago and I love it.


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## jlb (Feb 1, 2011)

Thanks Ethan, yes I heard the old Roland stuff is fantastic, I will have a look. I was just wondering what people on hear use, and do Fatar deserve this reputation they seem to have with their recent stuff of crap build quality

jlb


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## chimuelo (Feb 1, 2011)

I was impressed by the Oxygen 88's keybed, and it carried over the excellent, proven MIDI functions of the KS88's which have crappy action, but excell when it comes to controlling external hardware and software.
Oxygen 88 was using Kontakt libraries and Muse Receptor at NAMM and I was impressed, especially for the 525 USD price.
I have had some great old Poly AT controllers and heavy keybeds over the years and yes the Vintage stuff was built better IMHO. Since MIDI 2 specs. have arrived they are still just as good, but their controlling functions are way behind, unless of course Poly AT is needed.
In that case, the Infinite Response VAX77 is an incredible unit, with selectable custom graded keybed choices.
It's similar to playing a Yamaha CS80 if you ever had the pleasure.
Playing Polyphonic Synth sounds using Polyphonic Aftertouch is so awesome to feel.


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## jlb (Feb 1, 2011)

Hi Chimuelo, so you thought the oxygen 88 was good, that is interesting, I did have the m-audio keystation pro 88 and I thought the hammer action was pretty bad. thanks for the info

jlb


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## Walra48 (Feb 1, 2011)

> Doepfer LMK 2+: The absolute best feeling controller I've played (Fatar keybed). It has an absolutely terrible flaw, though, in that the black keys play about 10-15 velocity levels louder than the white keys. They have a separate attenuation feature for the black keys to even it out, but that prevents the black keys from every reaching a full 127 value. It's a shame, because it renders a potentially great keyboard *virtually useless* without a lot of programming after the fact.



Tell that to Hans Zimmer - he's used one for many years. Maybe that's what's held his career back 

I'd take one in a heart beat (I currently have a Fatar Studiologic SL880 Pro - which is
a damn sight more than decent, actually).


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## SomeKindaThing (Feb 1, 2011)

Hans is a programmer, not a player. He goes in and tweaks everything anyway. I've talked with a few people at Remote that have those controllers, and they all use them despite their flaws. They can be wrangled a bit, for sure, but I feel that if I'm going to spend $1400+ on a controller, it better f'ing work well.


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## jlb (Feb 2, 2011)

SomeKindaThing @ Tue Feb 01 said:


> I'm in the same situation of trying to find a good, weighted 88key master controller. Here's what I've found, FWIW:
> 
> Doepfer LMK 2+: The absolute best feeling controller I've played (Fatar keybed). It has an absolutely terrible flaw, though, in that the black keys play about 10-15 velocity levels louder than the white keys. They have a separate attenuation feature for the black keys to even it out, but that prevents the black keys from every reaching a full 127 value. It's a shame, because it renders a potentially great keyboard virtually useless without a lot of programming after the fact.
> 
> ...



Thanks very much for the info, yes please let us know what you think of the Numa Nano


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## jlb (Feb 2, 2011)

luke @ Tue Feb 01 said:


> The CME UF 80 is not worth the money. I bought it and every 10 seconds it sends some midi controller data to my daw, also when I am not doing anything.



thanks Luke, sorry to hear about your CME, really appreciate the warning

jlb


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## Walra48 (Feb 2, 2011)

Having demoed one recently at a local music store - it felt great - like my SL880. If you like the Fatar action - you'll like this. All other features are based on individual needs/tastes. For touch & feel I've yet to play anything better than a Fatar (and I've played pretty much all of them over the years}) - but again - like many things, this is always subject to individual preferences. Try' em all and choose your weapon.


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## Ed (Feb 2, 2011)

SomeKindaThing @ Tue Feb 01 said:


> Doepfer LMK 2+: The absolute best feeling controller I've played (Fatar keybed). It has an absolutely terrible flaw, though, in that the black keys play about 10-15 velocity levels louder than the white keys. They have a separate attenuation feature for the black keys to even it out, but that prevents the black keys from every reaching a full 127 value. It's a shame, because it renders a potentially great keyboard virtually useless without a lot of programming after the fact..



Man that would seriously piss me off.


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## wst3 (Feb 2, 2011)

Don't overlook the "it depends" factor... try as many as you can (easier said than done these days). Personal taste & experience play a large role in what feels good, the bells and whistles can be a secondary consideration.

Granted it was a long time ago, but I am still using a Roland/Rhodes MK-80 as my main keyboard. I don't even have the audio outputs connected at the moment (though I do use the built in sounds from time to time), but I like the feel of the action. There may well be (probably are) even better keyboards, but I am happy with this one. 
I have two synth/organ like keyboards that I also use, an Ensoniq EPS Classic and an Oberhem xK. One of them is usually sitting on top of the MK-80.

The EPS has an OK action, and my chops are not really up to the level to take advantage of poly-aftertouch, but I prefer the mod & pitch bend controllers on it over the other two.

As far as bells & whistles go, I have a Yamaha MCS-2 which provides more usable (to me) mod and pitch wheels, an breath controller input, inputs for two foot switches and two sweep pedals, and a handful of buttons and sliders. It's crude by today's standards, but I have it, so I use it.

The other "old" keyboard that I really like for feel is the Korg Piano, don't even remember the model number I'm afraid, but it had a very nice action.

If I were shopping today I'd certainly start by looking for one keyboard that did everything, but I'd also consider an out-of-production keyboard if it felt right.


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## jlb (Feb 2, 2011)

There seems to be a gap in the market, I am finding it impossible to find a really good quality basic 88 note weighted controller, I can't believe it, that the only way to get this may be to go for an old Roland or Kawai or Yamaha or something, or go for something with built in sounds that I dont need. The Numa series look good (one even has wooden keys) until you realise they have put the mod wheel on the side of the keyboard?! :? 

jlb


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## jlb (Feb 2, 2011)

wst3 @ Wed Feb 02 said:


> Don't overlook the "it depends" factor... try as many as you can (easier said than done these days). Personal taste & experience play a large role in what feels good, the bells and whistles can be a secondary consideration.
> 
> Granted it was a long time ago, but I am still using a Roland/Rhodes MK-80 as my main keyboard. I don't even have the audio outputs connected at the moment (though I do use the built in sounds from time to time), but I like the feel of the action. There may well be (probably are) even better keyboards, but I am happy with this one.
> I have two synth/organ like keyboards that I also use, an Ensoniq EPS Classic and an Oberhem xK. One of them is usually sitting on top of the MK-80.
> ...



wst3 you are lucky to still have all this good quality kit, I don't know why but I just cant seem to find a really nice quality plain weighted midi controller, it seems crazy that this stuff made 20 years ago is the best!


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## Polarity (Feb 2, 2011)

Consider also an Oberheim MC2000 or MC3000 (hammer piano weight).

I have an MC2000 since March 2002 an is still perfect.


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## Mahlon (Feb 2, 2011)

jlb @ Wed Feb 02 said:


> There seems to be a gap in the market, I am finding it impossible to find a really good quality basic 88 note weighted controller, I can't believe it, that the only way to get this may be to go for an old Roland or Kawai or Yamaha or something, or go for something with built in sounds that I dont need. The Numa series look good (one even has wooden keys) until you realise they have put the mod wheel on the side of the keyboard?! :?
> 
> jlb



Totally agree with you. If you _do_ end up going the older keyboard route and want to buy a Roland A-90, pm me. I've been thinking about putting it on ebay soon. The A-90 is a beast (in terms of weight -- and also sheer midi functionality -- it even has a breath controller input -- also velocity curves adjustment for days); it has some of the heaviest key action I've felt. Great controller. -- wait a sec, I'm talking myself out of selling it......  

Mahlon


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## jlb (Feb 2, 2011)

Mahlon @ Wed Feb 02 said:


> jlb @ Wed Feb 02 said:
> 
> 
> > There seems to be a gap in the market, I am finding it impossible to find a really good quality basic 88 note weighted controller, I can't believe it, that the only way to get this may be to go for an old Roland or Kawai or Yamaha or something, or go for something with built in sounds that I dont need. The Numa series look good (one even has wooden keys) until you realise they have put the mod wheel on the side of the keyboard?! :?
> ...



Mahlon, don't sell it, trust me it is gold dust!

jlb


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## Mahlon (Feb 2, 2011)

Maybe you're right.  Maybe I should hang on to it in case I can ever have a proper studio built and have the proper room for it.

Mahlon


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## chimuelo (Feb 2, 2011)

Brotha' Man Polarity...
I have had my Oberheim MC3000 since '96 and it's a work of art. 8 x 8 MIDI, 1,024 preset/performance. 8 pedal ins., programmable velocity tables, etc. etc.
Too bad it weighs 120lbs. w/ a case.....
I use it when I record locally, for the live gigs the cheap, peice of shit KS88's with DSP controlled MIDI resolution, works fine.
One thing though......
After 2-2 1/2 years I had a single note in the center of the keyboard, d this time, middle c last time, go out, and only sees a velocity 127..............
I just recently noticed this again so I am getting the Oxygen......

Won't brag about anything until it passes 6 months of moving around and getting banged on 6 nights a week.

For 525 USD it's a sore dick deal, can beat it..........


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## dcoscina (Feb 2, 2011)

my StudioLogic VMK188 PLus is a tank. Not sure what build quality is bad about it. Key bed is great. Comparing StudioLogic to CME is just way off the mark. I also had an SL990XP and that was fine too.


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## jlb (Feb 2, 2011)

dcoscina @ Wed Feb 02 said:


> my StudioLogic VMK188 PLus is a tank. Not sure what build quality is bad about it. Key bed is great. Comparing StudioLogic to CME is just way off the mark. I also had an SL990XP and that was fine too.



Hi there, I have read several reports of broken fatars, them using cheap metal and electronics in the keys, just really doesnt inspire confidence!

jlb


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## jlb (Feb 2, 2011)

dcoscina @ Wed Feb 02 said:


> my StudioLogic VMK188 PLus is a tank. Not sure what build quality is bad about it. Key bed is great. Comparing StudioLogic to CME is just way off the mark. I also had an SL990XP and that was fine too.



So your StudioLogic VMK188 PLus has a really great action? I had an M-audio keystation pro 88 and had to get rid of it, the StudioLogic is much better? I'm just a little concerned about the build quality!

jlb


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## jlb (Feb 2, 2011)

I really don't know what is going on with the new Fatar controllers, some people say they are great, some people say they are cheap nasty 'Italian' craftsmanship!

Confused

jlb


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## jlb (Feb 2, 2011)

I have found a Doepfer PK88 MIDI Controller Keyboard for sale, has anyone used one? It has no usb but I assume I could use a midi to usb converter?

jlb


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## Walra48 (Feb 2, 2011)

> I have found a Doepfer PK88 MIDI Controller Keyboard for sale, has anyone used one?



Nice keyboard for piano, but no modwheel or pitchbend. Hmmm.


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## chimuelo (Feb 2, 2011)

Just got done trying the Oxygen on my cheap laptop with PianoTeq Pro and it impressed me enough to buy it.
I only need to study some of the new features for DAW integration since I already know how to assign MIDI Program changes to any of the buttons under the sliders or in the right corner. I can even make them toggle....
The faders will be my realtime drawbars while a B3 emulation is needed, and they can also double as LFO/Envelope sync rates using another performance call up, or rate/depth combos for pedal style effects, etc.

I refuse to pay for a new model locally and pay taxes, and since I am a cheap bastard I bought one online for 449.00 shipping included.
It has a 45 day warranty since it's B Stock so I shall test it thouroughly and report back.

In all honesty M Audio KS88's are pieces of crap but very, very good controllers for realtime/stage use.
This has those features with less knobs, and even more new DAW integration tricks, but with damn good action.

If I can do a keith Emerson 64th note trill using PianoTeq Pro's killer Wurlitzer emulation, and go up and down from 0-127,...that's about all I'll ever need.

Go and try one, especially since it's the cheapest once again.
I think having a parent company like Avid has it's advantages.

BTW the Akai was there and is a nice controller if you need triggered loops, etc. and velocity pads, but I agree with the chap above, it's action is cheesey.
The Numa controllers I saw at NAMM 2 years ago I thought were really nice, but in all honesty the keybed feels the same.

I'll post a realtime Piano piece in a week when I get the unit, and also do a dynamic Rhodes number using it.
I get all excited when I get something for nothing......

You should go try one out before making any decisions though. Seriously, this thing as long as it will last a few years, is a great buy.


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## dcoscina (Feb 2, 2011)

jlb @ Wed Feb 02 said:


> dcoscina @ Wed Feb 02 said:
> 
> 
> > my StudioLogic VMK188 PLus is a tank. Not sure what build quality is bad about it. Key bed is great. Comparing StudioLogic to CME is just way off the mark. I also had an SL990XP and that was fine too.
> ...



I l like its action. I think the only complaint some people have is the knows and sliders are plastic and a little cheap feeling but the keyboard itself and action is solid. Now I will say that no Expression pedal works right with this model. I have a Kurzweil Expression pedal which gives me 10-127 but some times it flickers and sends out a 127 message for say modulation when it should be 30. It's OS is a little buggy and I do wish Fatar would update it but it doesn't impede my compositional process dramatically so I live with it.


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## Hans Adamson (Feb 2, 2011)

I tried the new Kawai MP10 at the NAMM Show, and it has an unbelievably genuine piano touch. My favorite has for a long time been the earlier Kawai stage pianos (MP9000) because of their full range of velocities and linear response + wood keys. The MP10 combines this with a new action that actually throws a hammer at an upwards angle towards the sensor strip. I didn't have any sounds when I tried it, but the touch was fantastic. Of course, it is not a "fast" action, but a realistic piano action.


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## chimuelo (Feb 2, 2011)

Yepp those Kawaii's are the best I must agree.
The price and weight are what turns me sour, and since VGP 2 sounds better than the Kawaii, I have always passed.
But if I had a crew, I would definately go with that and a new Hammond Suzuki w/ a Walnut 147.
BTW Hans, what's the chance of adding the new Oxygen 88 to the VGP 2 controller list down the road...?

Cheers.


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## jlb (Feb 3, 2011)

Walra48 @ Thu Feb 03 said:


> > I have found a Doepfer PK88 MIDI Controller Keyboard for sale, has anyone used one?
> 
> 
> 
> Nice keyboard for piano, but no modwheel or pitchbend. Hmmm.



I know, I was wondering if I could get around that, buy some other sort of expression controller?

jlb


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## jlb (Feb 3, 2011)

chimuelo @ Thu Feb 03 said:


> Just got done trying the Oxygen on my cheap laptop with PianoTeq Pro and it impressed me enough to buy it.
> I only need to study some of the new features for DAW integration since I already know how to assign MIDI Program changes to any of the buttons under the sliders or in the right corner. I can even make them toggle....
> The faders will be my realtime drawbars while a B3 emulation is needed, and they can also double as LFO/Envelope sync rates using another performance call up, or rate/depth combos for pedal style effects, etc.
> 
> ...



Hi Chimuelo, thanks for the info. So I just want to get this right, you are saying that you thought the action and keybed on the m-audio oxygen 88 is MILES better than the crappy Keystation Pro 88 (I have just got rid of one).

jlb


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## Hans Adamson (Feb 3, 2011)

chimuelo @ Wed Feb 02 said:


> BTW Hans, what's the chance of adding the new Oxygen 88 to the VGP 2 controller list down the road...?


It wouldn't be any problem, but I would need access to one over a weekend or so to calibrate the preset. I'm too busy at this moment though.
/Hans


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## jlb (Feb 3, 2011)

jlb @ Thu Feb 03 said:


> Walra48 @ Thu Feb 03 said:
> 
> 
> > > I have found a Doepfer PK88 MIDI Controller Keyboard for sale, has anyone used one?
> ...



Maybe I could add a smaller keyboard in the midi chain and use the mod wheel on that, does anybody do this?

jlb


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## Tanuj Tiku (Feb 3, 2011)

I bought the AKAI MPK - 61 Keys. 


Its quite well built, compact and has good controller features with enough pots and faders with pressure pads. I think those are very high quality. 

But the action is not very good. I knew that but I still bought it because I am not going to use it to really play in parts preceisely. I cant play very well on a non-weighted keyboard. Its not bad for synths though. I like the controller options!

CME as much better action but there MIDI has always had some funk. It keeps sending random signals via MIDI. I have seen these in over 3 keyboards now. But the action is quite good otherwise.


I have a Yamaha S90-ES as my main controller. It is just one of the best keyboards out there. It has a very realistic action and its just lovely. 


I also thought the Kurzweil keyboards had amazing action. Possibly, better than my Yamaha.

If you have the money, Kurzweil would be great!

I have never liked M-Audio. They make sus-standard products.


Best,

Tanuj.


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## chimuelo (Feb 3, 2011)

Yes the KS88 had everything I needed for controlling needs, and the action was acceptable. Especially since my gigs are Prog/Classic Rock & Fusion/Synth.
At times on request I would play something like the Piano solo at the end of Layla by Clapton, or some old Stevie Winwood, so for that stuff it's no different than any other keybed. 
The new keybed feels like an FP Wood as I can get the resistance for playing really dynamic stuff. 
Using PianoTeq Pro is similar to VGP 2 which is my sampled based choice, and I was doing various tests with trills and rapid sfz successive strikes and then of course playing Reverie, Clare de Lune or Passepied was fun as I could just perform.
On the KS88 I really had to base all dynamics according to the last note and actually think more instead of feel.
I will lose my 17 buttons I had my Instruments and synth banks attached to, but according to the Users manual I can still have the buttons below the faders for 9 rapid presets. I will just use twice as many MIDI channels to take advantage of them live.
Just changing the global MIDI channel to match the desired Instrument bank will allow me 9 rapid choices for every channel, and still I can have as many stacked instrument banks on a single channel as I want.
A slight re working will handle this.

The chap who is building my Solaris hardware synth has explained to me the keybed choices, the lack of Poly AT keybeds, and all of the options to consider when building a keybed, and there are only a few keybed manufacturers.
It seems the the FP Wood is used by everyone seeking really decent action, and each manufacturer can add more or less sophistication with their UI as they deem necessary.

All things considered with price, control tricks, DAW integration, transportability and action .....the Oxygen wins.


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## jlb (Feb 3, 2011)

chimuelo @ Thu Feb 03 said:


> Yes the KS88 had everything I needed for controlling needs, and the action was acceptable. Especially since my gigs are Prog/Classic Rock & Fusion/Synth.
> At times on request I would play something like the Piano solo at the end of Layla by Clapton, or some old Stevie Winwood, so for that stuff it's no different than any other keybed.
> The new keybed feels like an FP Wood as I can get the resistance for playing really dynamic stuff.
> Using PianoTeq Pro is similar to VGP 2 which is my sampled based choice, and I was doing various tests with trills and rapid sfz successive strikes and then of course playing Reverie, Clare de Lune or Passepied was fun as I could just perform.
> ...



Hi Chimuelo, can I just check we are talking about an m-audio keyboard here? The M-audio oxygen 88? It has a nice feel and a good action? I just wanted to check as the opinion everywhere is that all their stuff prior to the Oxygen has an absolutely terrible feel?

jlb


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## chimuelo (Feb 3, 2011)

Yes....I used 3 x KS88s' prior to this latest purchase.
They had acceptable action and excessive controls.
They were fine for everything except for Classical Piano. But even there I could still use it, it just wasn't anything to get excited over.

The M Audio Oxygen 88 has entirely new and different action, it feels like an FP Wood keybed that everyone uses....I cannot prove this, but I don't care where it came from. It is on par with the other controllers that use the FP Wood.

The main difference between the KS88 and the Oxygen is the way I can do trills from 0-127 and 127-0 doing rapid strikes from 2 x index fingers.
My KS88 was capable of this, but less control over the MIDI resolution, or information sent from the contacts underneath.
Therefore I believe they have a new keybed, and it feels and reminds me of an FP Wood.

And no, I never worked for Avid or M Audio, and I think everything else they make is junk.
I am just a guy who goes through new controllers every 2 years becasue I beat the crap out of them 6 nights a week.
So I never spend too much money on these pieces of crap.
Someday, these profit driven companies might release a really excellent controller with the best action, light weight, excessive controls, DAW integration, etc.
If it costs 2000 dollars, I dont care.
But until then I base my decisions on a combination of all features and price.

Dump the KS88 and get the Oxygen. 
But just take a laptop with a Piano or ask the store to provide a sound module and go try one.
You'll notice a big differnence from the KS88 junkwagon....


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## jlb (Feb 3, 2011)

Thanks Chimuelo that is very interesting, the first good report of an m-audio weighted board that I have heard :D 

jlb


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## dcoscina (Feb 3, 2011)

I might be interested in this too only because of some minor bugs in the VMK that I own. I would like full 0-127 control over expression via pedal.


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## chimuelo (Feb 3, 2011)

Brotha' Man Dcosina....Stock Expression Pedals suck, but they can be controlled with 3rd party solutions. They are a vital part of my live performance rig.
You should get an SDK developer from Bidule, or even a synthedit GuRu to make a VSTi/AU device that can act as a control smoother.

Below is my DSP developed MIDI CC Controller device I use on the flawed consumer goods that are shoved down our throats every year.
Does anyone here actually have an expression control pedal that works....?
I have never seen one, so therefore I couldn't justify waiting for these guys to actually build one. And since everyone just accepts the crap they feed us and act as though the expression pedal isn't a vital piece of kit, I took matters into my own hands.

You see the fader w/ CC11 on the far left side of my CC2x2 device I assume.
That fader controls the second 2 smaller faders to the right, and you'll see CC # 6 as my choice above that tiny blue level meter ( fader ).
I then use the curve modifiers and intensity levels as smoothing devices so when I do use my pedal, it doesn't jump from 0-64 or any other uncontrollable level of velocity that developers assume we can use.....
It now can be smoothed out and used for the exact start and stop points I choose, per preset.
The Swell knob on my DSP B3 emulation only needs to have it's start position at the 12 o'clock.
But then I need it its target destination at 4 o'clock ( just shy of maximum value ).
I can have the expression pedal in its off/full back position, and slam it down to full.
I can even move this fast and sloppily since I perform live and always stand when I play. So the Lag controllers on the CC2x2 can even accept the slammed expression pedals signal and make it swell slowly, similar to a crescendo.

This might be overkill for most guys, but if you own LASS, you really need the expression pedal as it is such a well programmed string instrument, the extras MUST be used for the full effect the developer intended.

But the below device can control the drawbars just like the Swell knob.
I use 4 faders, and attach them to the drawbars, and then slam the pedal, apply the lag times as well as the precise start points and targeted destinations.
So instead of the usual boring one handed fader movements, I keep the B3 swell active w/ Leslie speeds, and still play my CHHorn parts.

Surely someone at Plogue can build such a device, or the talented kids at KVR.


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## Mahlon (Feb 3, 2011)

jlb @ Thu Feb 03 said:


> jlb @ Thu Feb 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Walra48 @ Thu Feb 03 said:
> ...



I have a small Akai LPK25 sitting on top of my main keyboard and use it for keyswitches, but no modwheel. If I end up getting the Oxygen 88 as a master, I might replace the Akai with a 25 key board which _does_ have a mod wheel -- then use that in conjunction with the modwheel of the Oxygen. I like using mod wheels more than sliders to input CC1 and CC11 -- just feels like I get better 'playability' with the wheels. Or maybe I'm spoiled by that A-90 mod wheel. It's beautifully smooth rotation.

M.


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## jlb (Feb 3, 2011)

Can I just ask again, I have found a Doepfer PK88 for a very nice price, but it has no mod or pitch wheel. Would it be difficult to just buy another little controller keyboard with usb and just use the pitch wheel on that? I am using Logic 9

Many thanks

jlb


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## adg21 (Feb 3, 2011)

http://www.emismusic.co.uk/doepfer.htm
if you're based in the UK try giving the Doepfer guy at EMIS a call. he knows everything there is to know about Doepfer stuff and also knows which keyboards use which fatar keybeds and will give you good recommendations based on what you want (not just doepfer stuff).
http://www.fatar.com/Pages/TP_40WOOD.htm

If you're interested he''ll give you advice on doepfer keyboard kits (if you want to build a custom desk like hans). 

personally I find the tp/10 keybeds on the pk88/lmk2/lmk4 quite noisy, i like the feel but they do have a loud synthy action which is why I avoided them at the time.

I use a roland for just good piano action, and a yamaha np-30 as a controller for orchestral / string / brass / synthy stuff as I find semi-weighted action is better for that - the np-30 is a really quiet keyboard which was the only reason I bought it (I was rambling about here http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... ht=#258276). I use a uc-33 with it as it has no mod.


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## jlb (Feb 3, 2011)

adg21 @ Thu Feb 03 said:


> http://www.emismusic.co.uk/doepfer.htm
> if you're based in the UK try giving the Doepfer guy at EMIS a call. he knows everything there is to know about Doepfer stuff and also knows which keyboards use which fatar keybeds and will give you good recommendations based on what you want (not just doepfer stuff).
> http://www.fatar.com/Pages/TP_40WOOD.htm
> 
> ...



thanks for the info I appreciate it

jlb


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## P.T. (Feb 3, 2011)

Does the Oxygen 88 output the full range of velocity levels.
I know many controllers don't.

I have an m audio 61 es ( non hemmer action) and want to get an 88.
I will likely get the 88es or this Oxygen.

I actually don't care too much about hammer action though.
I think it doesn't work that well for non piano sounds.


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## Mahlon (Feb 3, 2011)

jlb @ Thu Feb 03 said:


> Can I just ask again, I have found a Doepfer PK88 for a very nice price, but it has no mod or pitch wheel. Would it be difficult to just buy another little controller keyboard with usb and just use the pitch wheel on that? I am using Logic 9
> 
> Many thanks
> 
> jlb



Yes, you can. It's easy.

Mahlon


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## chimuelo (Feb 3, 2011)

P.T.
I can use DSP devices to fix any shortcomings with MIDI, but I will post everything here next Sunday on my day off. I shall test it thoroughly.

You really need to stay away from the 88ES though.
I beat one of those up so bad I sold it for 20 bucks to a local Rapper so he could burn it in a video like a Hendrix-ish tribute.
Just for a program change you have to push and hold down a key, then press another and there's no way to have keyswitched artics down there with all of that wierd crap going on.

The KS88 is a great way to mix and perform at the same time as long as you don't expect great action.
You should just go to the local retailer and try a few out.
These days 500 bucks goes a long way.
Years ago I paid thousands for 88 note heavy action keybeds.
Most didn't have sounds either...


----------



## SomeKindaThing (Feb 3, 2011)

Well, the Numa Nano came today. I'm hesitant to speak so quickly, but I think I've finally found the right keyboard for me. I prefer the feel of the Doepfer over this only slightly (the keys feel a little heavier/slower on the Nano), but that was very quick to get over and I'm already used to it. My fears of a crappy feel because of its light weight appear to have been for naught, as this easily competes with the heaviest controllers I've played. It's certainly not the right keyboard if you need a lot of knobs or faders, but I have an external controller for that.

Initial tests of the velocity response was very impressive. Steady values from 1-127 on both the black and white keys across all octaves. I haven't messed with the different velocity curves yes, as the "medium" that it defaults to feels quite natural. My only big complaint with it so far is that the iPod-like scroll wheel interface is very clumsy and frustrating to change even the simplest of settings.

I'll keep you posted if anything changes, but I do believe this is the one for me!


----------



## billzander (Feb 3, 2011)

I purchased a Numa Nero after much research last year. Having a quality piano action was the most important feature for me, and I've been very happy with the Nero, both with the action and build quality. The mod wheel is on the side, which is a bit odd, but it wasn't a deal killer for me. This board replaced a Roland Rhodes, which also had a good piano-like action, but I like the action on the Nero better.


----------



## muk (Feb 4, 2011)

Is anybody using a Digital Piano as their masterkeyboard? Some of the cheaper models (Casio PX-3, CDP 100, Yamaha P85) are as lightweight as the Nano and are supposed to have a good hammer-action keybed. In fact the keys are the same that are used in more expensive models, which only have better speakers and samples and such. Might be interesting to check those as an alternative


----------



## jlb (Feb 4, 2011)

Hi Muk, yes some people are doing that, the problem with a piano is no mod or pitch wheel

jlb


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## muk (Feb 4, 2011)

If the keys are better this might not be much of an issue since you can buy a small controller cheaply and use those


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## jlb (Feb 4, 2011)

muk @ Fri Feb 04 said:


> If the keys are better this might not be much of an issue since you can buy a small controller cheaply and use those



That is exactly what I am wondering. I am so very tempted to go for the Numa Nano, I'm just a bit concerned about them cutting corners on quality because it is so light and portable. Also heard many things about bad Fatar quality control.

jlb


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## muk (Feb 4, 2011)

The above-mentioned DPs do all weigh about the same as the Numa Nano. I'm interested in the Nano too but I've read several times that the keys are quite noisy and the the programming is cumbersome. So I was looking more into DPs. Some of them are cheaper thanò i   Çn i   Ç  i   Ç/Ï i   Ç/ß i   Ç5ñ i   Ç62 i   Ç8 i   Ç8+


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## adg21 (Feb 4, 2011)

jlb @ Fri Feb 04 said:


> muk @ Fri Feb 04 said:
> 
> 
> > If the keys are better this might not be much of an issue since you can buy a small controller cheaply and use those
> ...



so many keyboard manufacturers use fatar, and they vary so much. for example the nord 88 have fatar keys and i thought they felt great. In fact you could find out which tp[?] is used in that and, if you dig deep you'll find another keyboard with different (cheaper) features but with exactly the same same keybed.


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## Mahlon (Feb 5, 2011)

muk @ Fri Feb 04 said:


> Is anybody using a Digital Piano as their masterkeyboard? Some of the cheaper models (Casio PX-3, CDP 100, Yamaha P85) are as lightweight as the Nano and are supposed to have a good hammer-action keybed. In fact the keys are the same that are used in more expensive models, which only have better speakers and samples and such. Might be interesting to check those as an alternative



I've thought about going this route. I had considered the Casio PX-3 because the action seems good and the build quality seems good. But putting a little controller on top (like the Zero SL Mk II) adds another three hundred -- so that puts me at about $1100.

Since the Oxygen 88 came out, I've been leaning more towards that. That would only set me back $600 or so, and it has all the sliders and a mod wheel. Maybe not the quality of the Novation Zero SL, though.

Anyway, still a decision to make. 

Mahlon


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## dcoscina (Feb 5, 2011)

I honestly wish M-Audio would come out with a 76 version of their Axiom boards. For most cases, I need a semi weighted controller and not full weighted for my work. Aside from acoustic pianos, do I really need full weighted keys for quick runs and staccatos? No. I have been playing around with my little Korg Micro-Key these past few days and I come away from a session with no finger fatigue at all. Yeah, it's only 3 octaves but I hook up a NanoKey to it for KS and that helps. 

I think an Axiom 76 would sell great, especially positioned at say $400-450. That wouldn't take sales away from the Oxygen 88 at all for those who want to step up to a full weighted controller.


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## jlb (Feb 5, 2011)

There is a problem here, I just want a very high quality 88 note basic controller, with a mod and pitch wheel that are not in a stupid place, that has usb, that isn't going to fall apart and that doesn't cost too much. The only one is the Numa Nano, I can't find anything else

jlb


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## adg21 (Feb 5, 2011)

All keyboards have midi so I wouldn't just limit yourself to 'controllers' if the feel is important, just get the keyboard/stage piano you like, and add a uc33 or something. eg. http://www.youtube.com/user/c0mp0ser#p/u/27/qOsVNPMOYoo if you want more midi controls. personally, I like moving the controls wherever I like on my desk.

Also, what's your budget? I just bought a second hand np30 and a uc33 on ebay about £250 for both and I'm pretty happy with the setup. you could always get a nice second hand stage piano/or clavinova and budget into it adding a controller. anyway just a thought


----------



## jlb (Feb 5, 2011)

adg21 @ Sat Feb 05 said:


> All keyboards have midi so I wouldn't just limit yourself to 'controllers' if the feel is important, just get the keyboard/stage piano you like, and add a uc33 or something. eg. http://www.youtube.com/user/c0mp0ser#p/u/27/qOsVNPMOYoo if you want more midi controls. personally, I like moving the controls wherever I like on my desk.
> 
> Also, what's your budget? I just bought a second hand np30 and a uc33 on ebay about £250 for both and I'm pretty happy with the setup. you could always get a nice second hand stage piano/or clavinova and budget into it adding a controller. anyway just a thought



That is very interesting, I like the look of the UC33 very much. So are you happy with the action of the NP30? I am after something really good quality with a really good heavy action (I want it to last for years). Thanks for the info much appreciated

jlb


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## adg21 (Feb 5, 2011)

It's definitely not heavy action. I use a roland for piano type stuff and the np30 for everything else. I prefer semi-weighted for synth/strings/brass etc and general midi programming but use the roland stage piano for...piano


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## chimuelo (Feb 5, 2011)

Don't bother with the OX88.
Got mine this morning and I am happy, but it's the same keybed.
What's odd is they have made it's response feel differenet and the MIDI resolution had some improvements made. But I am quite sure 2 years from now I will have beaten it into submission, as I did with the previous 3 x KS88's.
It seems that keybed lasts me 2 years before I start noticing 127 constant velocity on notes I end up using the most.

Keep in mind I beat on these 6 nights a week and usually 2-3 hours a day as I love to play. Afterall that's what I do for a living.
But it's not an FP Wood, but they sure have improved the old KS88 design and have made some nice integration features.

IMHO this is another great product at a great price, perfect for my needs, but it is not a high quality keybed as I suspected.


Sorry for any misdirections, but I am glad you started this thread as it made me walk over and test something, which then led me to buy this new unit, so it's all good.


----------



## jlb (Feb 5, 2011)

chimuelo @ Sat Feb 05 said:


> Don't bother with the OX88.
> Got mine this morning and I am happy, but it's the same keybed.
> What's odd is they have made it's response feel differenet and the MIDI resolution had some improvements made. But I am quite sure 2 years from now I will have beaten it into submission, as I did with the previous 3 x KS88's.
> It seems that keybed lasts me 2 years before I start noticing 127 constant velocity on notes I end up using the most.
> ...



No problem, thanks for letting us all know! I am seriously thinking about going down the high quality digital piano plus midi controller route, something like a Kurzweil SP2X‏ as that has built in USB. Either that or the numa nano. I really want something with a heavy quality well built action.

jlb



jlb


----------



## dagmarpiano (Feb 6, 2011)

Studio logic do the absolute best keyboards, and they're quite cheap too.

However, the SL-880 and SL-990 are better that the VMK-88.

I've owned an 880 and a 990, and I'm just awaiting delivery of my second 990. After 10 years of daily bashing they both developed a fault of unneven velocities on different keys, but this was after a long time, and the action is really really nice to play.


----------



## Shantar (Feb 6, 2011)

I have the Akai MPK-88 and in terms of "true" piano feel it fails to convince me. As someone pointed out, its a bit noisy and the hammer action feels a bit clumsy. I Always need to play this thing for ten minutes before I get used the the strange feel of the keys but despite all that I kind of like it. If I was only going to play piano with it I would not buy this thing but for orchestral stuff its good enough for me.


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## dcoscina (Feb 6, 2011)

I'm thinking of going to Yamaha NP60 route and putting my little Korg Nano-guys (Kontrol, Key, Pad) on top of it. I also have the MicroKey which I cannot say enough good things about. Great velocity response, and for minikeys, it's VERY playable. It has scalable curves in the software that comes with it. It also has a mod and pitch wheel plus two USB ports to add on the other Nano controllers so you're not tying up your previous limited Mac ports, especially the laptops.

I'm getting to a stage where I don't really need full weighted controllers any longer. I find there's more flexibility in the semi weighted controllers as far as doing orchestral mock ups. for the exception of piano and keyboard based instruments, weighted action isn't all that good for strings, brass, and percussion.


----------



## muk (Feb 7, 2011)

What does everybody think how the keys of a Yamaha P85/95 or Casio PX 3 compare to a Doepfer PK 88? Doepfer is very popular in the filmmusic business and I'm wondering whether the cheaper Digital Pianos can hold up in terms of touch and velocity sensitivity


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## jlb (Feb 7, 2011)

I would go for a Doepfer, but I am worried about them, there are too many stories of the black keys being more sensitive than the white keys etc and other strange things. The action is supposed to be really good.

Now I am thinking of going for a Studiologic Numa or Numa Nero, they are expensive, but gorgeous looking and the action is supposed to be amazing. Does anyone on here own one/have tried one?

jlb


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## Andy B (Feb 7, 2011)

Hi Jib,

I have a Numa and I'm really happy with it. I don't spend much time playing piano samples with it, but I do like the action - not too heavy, or too light.

Andy.


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## jlb (Feb 7, 2011)

Hi Andy, do you have the white Numa or the Nero? I am looking for something to last a good few years, does it feel really well made, Im trying to decide as it is 900 quid, would you say the keybed is better made/better feel than the 300/400 quid fatar stuff, if you have tried it. Does the wheel on the side bother you or do you not use it? Any advice would be really appreciated.

Many thanks

J L Brees


----------



## Andy B (Feb 7, 2011)

jlb @ Mon Feb 07 said:


> Hi Andy, do you have the white Numa or the Nero? I am looking for something to last a good few years, does it feel really well made, Im trying to decide as it is 900 quid, would you say the keybed is better made/better feel than the 300/400 quid fatar stuff, if you have tried it. Does the wheel on the side bother you or do you not use it? Any advice would be really appreciated.
> 
> Many thanks
> 
> J L Brees



I have the white Numa and it replaced my nearly 15 year old Fatar Studio 90. To be honest, the Numa doesn't feel as half as solid as the Studio 90, which was very tank like, but I haven't played on any of the more recent cheaper-end Fatar instruments to compare.

I don't use the wheel on the side as the keyboard fits quite snuggly into my desk. 

Your best bet would obviously be to try to find one to audition before purchasing.

Thanks,

Andy.


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## jlb (Feb 7, 2011)

Thanks Andy, I appreciate the info

jlb


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## dcoscina (Feb 7, 2011)

The Kurzweil controller line is nice. The PC3K is a beaut and I've worked a lot with a PC3 and it's a very nice semi weighted synth action. KEYBOARD gave it a Key Buy award a few years back. Solid.


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## jlb (Feb 7, 2011)

Yes I think Kurzweil use a Fatar action, thanks for the info

jlb


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## Walra48 (Feb 8, 2011)

jlb @ Mon Feb 07 said:


> Yes I think Kurzweil use a Fatar action, thanks for the info
> 
> jlb




It does - as most weighted controllers out there do.
Fatar makes really great weighted keyboards - they have a bit of a
monopoly in that market.


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## jlb (Feb 8, 2011)

Walra48 @ Tue Feb 08 said:


> jlb @ Mon Feb 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes I think Kurzweil use a Fatar action, thanks for the info
> ...



Yes they seem to. It is all quite confusing. I have heard many reports of very poor quality components in the modern Fatar /Studiologic stuff, but also many people that are very happy with Fatar. I am seriously considering ordering their flagship keyboard, the Numa. I am not in a position to try any of them out where I live, I'm just trying to decide if the Numa is going to be that much better than a 990XP or a VMK188+ as it is double the price! I would love to hear from anyone who has played any of these.

jlb


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## jlb (Feb 9, 2011)

Many thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I have just ordered a Studiologic Numa


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## adg21 (Feb 9, 2011)

I reccommend you try midi velocity checker on you keys as mentioned in this post
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... sc&start=0
my rd700 is 100% success rate, my np30 about a 90%


----------



## chimuelo (Feb 11, 2011)

I am going to build a controller and dismantle a Kawai MP that has been trashed.
Don't know how to do this, but after 20+ years of developers regurgitating the same crap like no controllers/great action, or shitty action/great controllers I have lost all patience.
I use a Monome for many chores from visual subdivided LED metronome for the entire group to see, ( ritardandos are better seen than heard ), to advanced MIDI work.
This little device is excellent.
http://www.lividinstruments.com/hardware_code.php

I will have a Kawai MP keybed in a light weight custom chassis, a Livid Code on the far right, long rectangular mouse pad in the middle, with space for a tilted iPad, and 16 faders on the far left.

Screw all of these developers. This will cost me about 2000 USD but I will never have to deal with the business model and profit fears of these deaf and mute developers.

So It Shall Be Written, So It Shall Be Done.........
Yul Brennar as Ramsees II in Exodus. MGM/UA 1956.


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## dcoscina (Feb 11, 2011)

I'm ordering a Kurzweil soon, justò v   Ë¸_ v   Ë¸d v   Ë»€ v   Ë»† v   Ë»Ú v   Ë¼" v   ËÁa v   ËÁ… v   ËÁ v   ËÁ¸ v   ËÃ¾ v   ËÃÊ v   ËÄ« v   ËÄ¾ v   ËÉå v   ËÊ v   ËÍH v   ËÍÄ v   ËÏ= v   ËÏt v   ËØ v   ËØ< v   ËÙ v   ËÙU v   ËÝ‚ v   ËÝ– v   ËÝÑ v   ËÝÞ v   ËßÊ v   Ëßó v   Ëà• v   Ëàý v   ËæB v   Ëæa v   ËçÒ v   ËèC v   Ëè— v   ËèÄ v   Ëí; v   Ëík v   Ëîß v   Ëï v   Ëûæ v   ËüY v   Ëýö v   Ëþ£ v   Ëÿ1 v   Ëÿ\ v   Ì f v   Ì v   Ì„ v   Ì– v   Ìz v   Ì• v   Ì6 v   ÌN v   Ì$r v   Ì$ v   Ì% v   Ì%9 v   Ì( v   Ì(¦ v   Ì?R v   Ì?‘ v   ÌDX v   ÌD› v   ÌDì v   ÌE( v   ÌE7 v   ÌG v   ÌG1 v   ÌP\ v   ÌPr v   ÌQÄ v   ÌQÿ v   ÌX¼ v   ÌXÃ v   ÌY8 v   ÌY‡ v   Ìfó v   Ìg1 v   Ìi9 v   Ìi¥ v   ÌkŒ v   Ìl v   Ìn v   Ìn¡ v   ÌoG v   Ìoå v   Ìp


----------



## jlb (Feb 11, 2011)

chimuelo @ Fri Feb 11 said:


> I am going to build a controller and dismantle a Kawai MP that has been trashed.
> Don't know how to do this, but after 20+ years of developers regurgitating the same crap like no controllers/great action, or shitty action/great controllers I have lost all patience.
> I use a Monome for many chores from visual subdivided LED metronome for the entire group to see, ( ritardandos are better seen than heard ), to advanced MIDI work.
> This little device is excellent.
> ...



You are right there is really nothing on the market like that. I have ordered the Numa but even with that they have put the modwheel on the side for some reason, if you just want a top quality keyboard with basic sliders and wheels there is nothing. (Apart from the Doepfers and I am just not convinced, too many weird stories about black key sensitivity!)

jlb


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## Martin Hines (Feb 16, 2011)

jlb @ Tue Feb 01 said:


> Thanks Ethan, yes I heard the old Roland stuff is fantastic, I will have a look. I was just wondering what people on hear use, and do Fatar deserve this reputation they seem to have with their recent stuff of crap build quality
> 
> jlb


As an OEM keybed manufacturer, Fatar produces a range of keybeds, ranging from the cheap to keybeds used in products from Kurzweil and Korg.

I am not aware of any 'no sound' midi controller that has a good a keybed action as pro keyboards from companies like Yamaha, Korg and Roland. I would suggest looking at a used synth/workstation/stage piano.


----------



## jlb (Feb 17, 2011)

Martin Hines @ Wed Feb 16 said:


> jlb @ Tue Feb 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks Ethan, yes I heard the old Roland stuff is fantastic, I will have a look. I was just wondering what people on hear use, and do Fatar deserve this reputation they seem to have with their recent stuff of crap build quality
> ...



Hi Martin, there is only one, the Studiologic Numa. I have ordered one, just waiting for it to arrive!

jlb


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## adg21 (Aug 30, 2011)

Jib how are you enjoying the Numa? I'm on the lookout for a replacement...thanks


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## jlb (Aug 31, 2011)

The Numa is great, a very classy bit of kit, very close to a proper piano. I don't use the modwheel on the side, I use a Korg NanoKontrol on top

jlb


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## adg21 (Aug 31, 2011)

Great to hear. I don't use keyboard mods either so its not a problem for me.

I'm probably in the same dilemma as you - Numa, or Numa Nero - it's hard to spot the difference (other than the keybed but cannot easily test them)

Why did you ultimately end up choosing the Numa over the Numa Nero? Is it simply that you prefered white?!


----------



## jlb (Aug 31, 2011)

Yes I wanted a white one, so it would look like a Fairlight! They are better built than the Nano

jlb


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## SomeKindaThing (Aug 31, 2011)

I've had the Numa Nano for a few months now, and I absolutely love it. Haven't had a single problem with it, the response and feel is the best I've played. I don't use the mod wheel, I have an external controller, so I can't speak to the resolution of it, but these Numa keyboards really seem top-notch.


----------



## stonzthro (Aug 31, 2011)

Wow, that mod wheel is in a weird place - unless you are Davy Jones!


----------



## synthetic (Aug 31, 2011)

chimuelo @ Fri Feb 11 said:


> I am going to build a controller and dismantle a Kawai MP that has been trashed....



That is cool! Share your experience. I've been thinking about doing something similar. I think the Kawai key beds are the best. Every year I ask them to make a MIDI controller and they look at me like I have horns coming out of my head. 

Every year I go to NAMM hoping that someone has finally made a decent controller but it never happens. You can buy $20k guitars and $50k trombones but a MIDI controller over $500 is crazy talk. 

The obvious reason is they don't sell. Just like fader controllers don't sell.


----------



## mikebarry (Aug 31, 2011)

MPK 88 here. Replaced my novation.

high quality - good price - solid built


----------



## Question (Dec 21, 2011)

Reviving this older thread.

Does anyone who bought the Numa Nero Keyboard wish to comment on how it is working out?

I would like to get rid of my Doepfer LMK4+ for the same reasons mentioned in this thread, namely the uneven velocities between the white and black keys, as well as the extremely loud key-bed.

The Numa would suit my needs, but I have been reading numerous negative comments regarding uneven key velocities, build quality etc., and am a bit hesitant to buy one if these reliability issues are still there.

Thanks.


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## jlb (Dec 22, 2011)

No issues with the Numa so far, it's like playing a high quality piano. I have the white one, it has heavy plastic keys. The Numa nero has wooden keys. They are expensive, but feel high quality. Check out the videos online, there are a few from NAMM shows etc.

jlb


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## dedersen (Dec 22, 2011)

I would pay a lot of money for a high quality 88 key controller with a good mod wheel and about six long faders to the left of the keybed. Having faders behind the keys makes it so much more difficult to fit it neatly below a desk and still being able to easily reach the mouse and keyboard. I am getting by with a digital piano and a korg nano fader thing, but the faders are too short for precise work.


----------



## Gabriel Oliveira (Dec 22, 2011)

Hey Numa Users!

what do u guys use for pitch bend?


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## Rob Elliott (Dec 22, 2011)

The Numa Nero and Korg Nano Kontrol look like a great option. Those who have the nano - like it? Smooth throw on the sliders?


----------



## Question (Dec 22, 2011)

dedersen said:
"I would pay a lot of money for a high quality 88 key controller with a good mod wheel and about six long faders to the left of the keybed. Having faders behind the keys makes it so much more difficult to fit it neatly below a desk and still being able to easily reach the mouse and keyboard."

Yes dedersen,

I am also prepared to pay more for what you are suggesting; we are in the minority, or else someone would have already built it.

Can someone please tell me the EXACT depth of the Numa Nero Keyboard?
I have read the dimensions online, but was unsure if that was with the rear part of the keyboard slid in or out.

Thanks!

dedersen. I sent you a PM regarding the mouse position.


----------



## José Herring (Dec 22, 2011)

Rob Elliott @ Thu Dec 22 said:


> The Numa Nero and Korg Nano Kontrol look like a great option. Those who have the nano - like it? Smooth throw on the sliders?



Smooth and accurate, but with only 30mm faders you have to finesse it a bit. Any minor twitch in the finger and HB is blaring in the fff range. You have to take it in tiny, tiny increments.


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## Rob Elliott (Dec 22, 2011)

Ok thanks Jose.


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## jlb (Dec 22, 2011)

I use a Nano Kontrol on my Numa and it is great, there is loads of room, my Numa is 380mm deep

jlb


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## Question (Dec 22, 2011)

jib, thanks for the info.


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## dedersen (Dec 22, 2011)

Rob, re the nano kontrol. I am looking to find an alternative to mine. The faders are just too short for my liking. I find I often need to draw in the finer detail with the mouse afterwards, which is a major workflow killer.


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## SvK (Dec 22, 2011)

Akai MPK 88
Akai MPK 88
Akai MPK 88
Akai MPK 88
Akai MPK 88
Akai MPK 88

built like a brick shithouse
got it 

best,
SvK


----------



## Rob Elliott (Dec 22, 2011)

SvK @ Thu Dec 22 said:


> Akai MPK 88
> Akai MPK 88
> Akai MPK 88
> Akai MPK 88
> ...




sounds crappy









o


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## SvK (Dec 22, 2011)

its a controller. it doesn't make sounds


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## Rob Elliott (Dec 22, 2011)

SvK @ Thu Dec 22 said:


> its a controller. it doesn't make sounds




Seriously - It will likely fit it best with my workflow. Looking forward to it.


----------



## Gabriel Oliveira (Dec 23, 2011)

Gabriel Oliveira @ Thu Dec 22 said:


> Hey Numa Users!
> 
> what do u guys use for pitch bend?




ANYONE?


----------



## Gabriel Oliveira (Jan 16, 2012)

no one?


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## jlb (Jan 17, 2012)

I don't use pitch bend Gabriel, but I think the most common thing people do is buy a little 25 key keyboard controller, sit it on top of the numa and use the pitchbend on that. Its also useful if you want to play in synth parts etc where you dont want a weighted keyboard

jlb


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Jan 17, 2012)

hm, probably


----------



## Blakus (Aug 4, 2012)

After reading all the topics in the last few years on 88-Key controllers, I am beginning to think there is nothing really decent out there! Someone prove me wrong!

I am not all that obsessed with having full weighted action, just something that feels nice to play that is good build quality, and *won't cost me the earth*. The Akai MPK88 looked fairly decent to me until I read in a few places that it is a bit clunky. I've also been thinking about the Doepfer LMK4+/2+ series, although here in Australia they're a bit pricey (like everything else down under I guess).

Seems like there's a big gap in the market out there for middle priced, decent quality 88-key midi controllers?


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## IFM (Aug 5, 2012)

When I demoed a CME controller it was pretty nice, but I've never picked one up yet. Currently I am still using my Alesis QS8.1 but I know it is going to wear out sooner or later. It already makes a lot of key noise as it is. 

Chris


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## Blakus (Aug 5, 2012)

Thanks for the input Chris. CME appealed to me too, but I have read far too many horror stories on many forums about them to be game enough to give them a go! I am actually starting to lean towards the Doepfer LMK4+ at the moment. As I am thinking about getting a custom desk made soon.


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## IFM (Aug 5, 2012)

Blakus @ Sun Aug 05 said:


> Thanks for the input Chris. CME appealed to me too, but I have read far too many horror stories on many forums about them to be game enough to give them a go! I am actually starting to lean towards the Doepfer LMK4+ at the moment. As I am thinking about getting a custom desk made soon.



Yes I noticed Sweetwater dropped them now too. I do have a CME 61key and my biggest complaint about it was the USB connectivity...it would drop randomly so I always used regular MIDI instead. 

There just aren't many choices anymore which is quite odd.

Chris


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## adg21 (Aug 5, 2012)

My advice: Don't buy CME, the key action is dreadful. The M-Audio Keystations are better than CME


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## chimuelo (Aug 5, 2012)

In case you ever leave the house the most lightweight, portable 88'r with good action I found is the XS3-S Privia.
Some like it's sounds, I think they suck personally, but it is reminiscient of the old Roland D70 where 4 zones per performance, and then a card can extend the 64 in ROM you make.
Have an old A90 and Oberheim MC3000 here if I am in a finnicky mmod, but the Provia weighs nothing, and costs basically nothing. Grabbed mone for 500 USD.
Have a BCF2000 and Livid Code to cover all of the on the flt parameter modulations, with 2 x EXp and and 2 x FSWitch.
I you havent tried one give it whirl before buying these other disposable Fatars, MAudios, etc.


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## muk (Aug 5, 2012)

I wouldn't go with a doepfer if you don't need the flight case. Imo they are overpriced though many use it. After some research I found that the high-class masterkeyboards don't cut it and your better of getting an entry level digitalpiano. If your serious about a weighted action, that is.
Casio offers some leigthweight dps that are in fact cheaper than a doepfer or the Numa nero.


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## dcoscina (Aug 5, 2012)

I went through lots of keyboards until I got a used Kurzweil PC3x and I love it. Great action and some nice internal sounds too.


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## chimuelo (Aug 5, 2012)

Plus Casio support is instantaneous here, then if the techs are unsure of something Tokyo respons back within 24 hours.
But I got use to performing on real Pianos where I never got a warm up, etc. So if it's got 88 notes, I will play it, otherwise for the perfect boring Crescendo/Tympani rolls ( yawn,yawn) that's what Cubase and Logic are for.
But spending tons of cash versus buying the disposable models is the question.
I have 2 old school 13-20 year old well made great action boards at home if I get all finnicky about something, otherwise I can pound these disposable units for at least 2 years before they lose a contact that only plays at 128. Even then I can turn that into a 4 zone synth or dual manual B3 since action and velocity isn't a factor.
I finally played a LMK4+ and they are excellent controllers, especially for the travelling man.
Someday Infinite Response will build an 88 note controller, and then you can see what controlling via velocity really should be like.
At NAMM 12 the IR guy set up the unit with a Rhodes style keybed, a Grand Piano, etc.
They sucked 4 years ago, but these definately wired their heads to to thier gear now.
But not having 88 notes was like going back in time to the late 80's/early '90s.


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## Blakus (Aug 6, 2012)

I really appreciate your input guys! The stage pianos seem like an interesting option. One of the main reasons I am considering the LMK4+ is because of how compact it is (desk space, and future options to integrate into custom desk http://www.doepfer.de/LMK4_Example_Heimel.htm), and it seems to be built really solidly. I agree it seems a bit overpriced for what it is indeed!

Would love a kurzweil but they are so expensive! I don't want to pay for sounds, I want to pay for great quality, extra controllers would be nice too - one of the reasons the MPK88 appeals. It seems these days that if you want to buy a decent controller, you have to pay even a bit more for unwanted sounds too :shock:


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## Barrie B (Aug 6, 2012)

Great thread, anyone tried these?

http://www.dv247.com/computer-hardware/ ... ard--83427

Looks a bit plasticky and not hammer action but it's the right size for me, just wondered if anyone has experience of these.

Probably will go for the Numa Nano though..

best

Barrie


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## Blakus (Aug 6, 2012)

I'd be interested to hear if anyone has a Kurzweil PC3 (77key version of the PC3x). I'm not really fussed about full weighted action, in fact, semi would probably appeal to me more. Any feedback on the feel of this?


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## marclawsonmusic (Aug 6, 2012)

I have the MPK88 and it works fine. As someone else said, the action isn't the best (I like the action on Yamaha weighted keyboards better), but it works fine as a weighted controller and also has tons of sliders, pads, knobs for programming.

I couldn't buy a weighted keyboard without playing it first. If I'm going to be using it every day, I have to play it first. That's why the Doepfer (sp?) was out for me, as well as some of the others. It's too expensive (and critical) of an investment to not play it first.

I hope this helps. Good luck to you!
Marc


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## quantum7 (Aug 6, 2012)

I use a Kurzweil PC3LE8 and am very happy with the keyboard action.

+1000 on staying away from CME - Horrible quality!


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## dedersen (Aug 6, 2012)

Yup, also really bad experience with CME here.

I've ended up settling on a combination of an M-Audio Keystation 88ES for my "workstation" keyboard, with a Yamaha Clavinova sitting at a 90 degree angle to my desk. The 88ES is shady quality, but I actually find the (semi-weighted) keybed quite good for all non-piano stuff and it's so damn cheap that I'll just replace it if it should die at some point. Also, I've become quite pleased with the modwheel. Only real trouble with the 88ES is that it isn't so well-endowed in the controller department so I am desperately looking for that perfect faderbox to go with it.

The Clavinova handles all piano duties, and serves as the main "sketch" workstation, with stacks of score paper on top of it.


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## Maestro77 (Aug 6, 2012)

Dedersen, I'm in the same boat. I want 88 keys but prefer the semi-weighted action so I also have the 88ES. I don't think there are ANY other semi-weighted 88 key controllers out there (someone please prove me wrong!). To compliment it I've tried the Korg NanoKontrol2 and the Novation Zero SL MKii. Both don't seem to play very nicely with Logic and I'm not comfortable using either one. STILL looking for just a simple, no-frills fader box. I don't need it to control my DAW, make me eggs in the morning or fly me to Mars. Just a set of easily assignable faders, please. Arg!


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## P.T. (Aug 6, 2012)

I just came across this today.

http://www.dv247.com/computer-hardware/ ... ard--83427

I can't find and distributors in the USA.

Does anyone know anything about it.

It has a metal case and aftertouch.

I prefer semi weighted for a controller.
I only need piano action for piano and I'm not really a piano player.
I am an everything else player and most everything else is just single note lines and percussion.

People look at the keyboard and see 'piano', so compare a controller to a piano.


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## chimuelo (Aug 6, 2012)

The overlooked and aged BCF2000 from Behringer has many automappings already made, and adds EXp and FSwitch pedal w/ Dual MIDI in, automated faders.
I use mine for a Modular Synth, MIDI CC realtime parameters for effects and mixing, autmated fader for external Filter sweep on an Analog synth ( thanks to Expert Sleepers SIlentway Suite VST ), they are my favorite for realtime control and the resolution is 14bit not the usual MIDI 0-128.

I like the looks of the cheap controller above.
Here's another disposable unit that has lots of controls, but I still prefer the skinny, light weight good action controller, something else as a surface.
Who needs Pads anyways...? Kenye West....?

http://www.icon-global.com/ShowPro.aspx?ID=14


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## Maestro77 (Aug 6, 2012)

P.T., did you mean to include a link?

Chimuelo, I like the looks of that one. Like you, I don't want pads though. Wish it were easier to get one in the US.


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## dcoscina (Aug 6, 2012)

Blakus @ Mon Aug 06 said:


> I'd be interested to hear if anyone has a Kurzweil PC3 (77key version of the PC3x). I'm not really fussed about full weighted action, in fact, semi would probably appeal to me more. Any feedback on the feel of this?



I worked at a music store for a while and brought home a PC3 for a couple weeks. It has a nice snappy action to it but very well balanced. The PC3LE7 does NOT have the same action or board no matter what anyone says. I bought one of those thinking it was the same and found it to be horribly too stiff. That's why I decided to not mess around any more and bought the PC3X which is solid and works very well. 

You cannot go wrong with Kurzweil IMO


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## chimuelo (Aug 6, 2012)

All I know is someday they will build a higher quality Privia with zero controls, superior keybed using MID 2 Specs where 0-16000 is used like we see in the VAX77, and I'll finally get what I really want.

This decades old 0-128 for velocity is a pathetic rip off as they believe musicians these days that are dedicated and well trained use real Pianos.
This is why we see few developers with sostenuto, and 99% of controllers using the same level of control a Yamaha DX7 had from 1983......

They are pissing on our backs and trying to tell us that it's raining, especially when great Pianists are shown using some software w/o proper pedals, etc.
Like having a famous engineer sitting in fornt of a 300k SL4000G+ console, and trying to tell us he uses Nebula. He just can't find anyone on Craigslist who wants the 18' Console......... =o


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## P.T. (Aug 6, 2012)

Maestro77 @ Mon Aug 06 said:


> P.T., did you mean to include a link?
> 
> Chimuelo, I like the looks of that one. Like you, I don't want pads though. Wish it were easier to get one in the US.



Oh, my.

Thanks, I fixed the post.

Here it is again.

http://www.dv247.com/computer-hardware/ ... ard--83427

This looks potentially interesting with a metal case and aftertouch.

Can't seem to find a USA distributor, though.


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## chimuelo (Aug 6, 2012)

http://www.icon-global.com/ShowDown.aspx?ID=398
http://www.icon-global.com/ShowDown.aspx?ID=397

The pictures in the manual are different. There are some features they have added that I am very interested in, like a Joystick/ModWheel/PBend combo and an X-Y Pad.

The manual is 84Megs so it is really deep and even though Im not a pad guy it appears these pads can be assigned whatever functions you want instead of the usual triggering of sounds of PrgmChng messages.


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## chimuelo (Aug 6, 2012)

This is one well designed full featured Controller.
I think I am buying it as I can always sell it if the action sucks.
500 USD is 3 days pay so I'll be your Huckleberry.
Stay tuned for results. I really like my Privia XS3, but this unit has all of the features that my BCF2000 don't have, so it's companion.
Plus I am a sucker for Global Channels, where you can mute all controllers, change the MIDI channel so each button can be an articulation or PrgmCHng message, very flecible.
MIDI Machine Control is OK too for when I need Reaper for MAC control and lighting cues.


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## Maestro77 (Aug 6, 2012)

Keep us posted - I'm interested. Where are you buying it from?


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## chimuelo (Aug 6, 2012)

Well I thought it was Minnesota, but it's in Wisconsin, and I just spoke with a gal who said their are new models, and the 88PS might be discontinued.
It appears as though they have incorporated their G2 synth which says is using Creamwares old ASX card which can be found in their DSP cards.
But she will email the price difference or see if there's a unit in stock somehwere.

We'll see what's up, but I believe the design should be the same as in the manual, not the website, and the only difference is they sold their 1000 units. And are now working on other products.
I will post their email. Sounded like a Gwen Stefani kind of band chick, knew her stuff, was chewing gum acting sassy, etc.
Much better than a polite ass kisser with an accent...

FWIW Creamwares' synths are old emulations but they are very high quality and consist of the ARP Odyssey, MiniMoog, Prophet V, Prohet VS, Waldorf PPG2.3, Hammond B3, and a few Hybrid synths including FM 6 operator w/ Sync.
I am sure it will have the 44.1k quality of the Pluggiator, but we'll see wassup.


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## Blakus (Aug 7, 2012)

Well, I just bought a Kurzweil PC3, found a great price for here in Australia (we tend to get ripped off). Will let you know what I think when it arrives.


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## marclawsonmusic (Aug 7, 2012)

I doubt you'll go wrong with the Kurzweil. They are pretty much legendary, but tend to be out of my budget.

I am also curious to hear how this Inspire semi-weighted workstation works out. Chimuelo, looking forward to your feedback on that.

Great discussion...

Cheers,
Marc


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## Blakus (Aug 7, 2012)

They are out of stock, but are giving me the PC3K7 for the same price, I'm happy about that.


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## chimuelo (Aug 7, 2012)

Friend from Musikmesse informed me that indeed the Creamware ASX boards are used in these, which is a really strong selling point.
But, I trust these guys and they said the controllers are klunky, and the action meant for synths, even thought the Hammer action is used.
Just not very responsive, and the price with the cards, since the 88 note controllers are discontinued are much pricier....

Too bad, hope up again for the same old story, on manufactures assuming most performers/composers are unfamiliar with better wuality gear with more pedal options, better qaultiy build, etc.

Sorry.


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## Blakus (Aug 11, 2012)

Well, I've had my Kurzweil PC3K7 for 2 days now and it's perfect for me. The action is a nice semi-weighted feel, I can play piano parts with good control and I can also do some organ work where needed. All of the sliders and CC controllers feel really smooth and are easily customizeable. The sounds on it are pretty impressive (not that I'll be using them that often). I'm a happy chappy!


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## utopia (Aug 16, 2012)

sorry to dig this up again, but has anyone heard anything about this controller? just found out about it's existence 
http://www.studiologic-music.com/acuna-88.html


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## spaunsam7 (Apr 23, 2017)

Andy B said:


> Hi Jib,
> 
> I have a Numa and I'm really happy with it. I don't spend much time playing piano samples with it, but I do like the action - not too heavy, or too light.
> 
> Andy.


Hey Andy! First of all I am a big fan of your work and I really like the fact that you play most of your parts in which makes your mock-ups sound very realistic. I was wondering if you still use the Numa to play your parts in? Are the keys too heavy for certain fast passages in the strings and brass? I am looking into getting a used one and would really value your input. Thank you.

-Sam


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