# M2 nvme vs sata



## jules (Feb 16, 2018)

Hey there !
I'm actually in the process of building a new computer (intel 8700k & w10) and wondering if M2 nvme is worth the money, when the samsung 860 evo & crucial MX 500 are much cheaper. So far my understanding is that M2 _sata_ is basicaly the same thing than a 2'5 ssd, so no gain here. But the _nvme_ thing ? With a M2 nvme as a c:, will cubase be more responsive ? Or is it better to keep the M2 ports for sample streaming ?
I red every thread about this subject that i found (mostly here), but without beeing able to get a clear idea of the thing.

Thanks for your help !

julien


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## EvilDragon (Feb 16, 2018)

M2 is worth it for the OS drive where all your programs will be installed, and you should definitely do it. For sample streaming, SATA SSDs are just fine.


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## jules (Feb 16, 2018)

Thank you, Mister Dragon. You're always so helpfull !  
On specs, the M2 nvme is interesting, it's curious that it don't transpose to real life benefits and the reason why it's not that easy to untangle !


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## Ronny D. Ana (Feb 16, 2018)

Sorry but I have a different opinion:
You will start your OS once a day or once a week or whatever. But you will load your sample libraries more often when adding a track changing instruments and so on. Even if you have a solid template with your DAW (and so loading both library and OS one time) you have to load more GBs of libraries than GBs for your OS. Primarily It depends on your workflow I would say. M2 SSDs (they use PCIe) are basically faster than SATA SSDs. If you want to go really fast check SSCs (Solid State Cards).


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## jules (Feb 16, 2018)

Ronny D. Ana said:


> Sorry but I have a different opinion:


Don't be sorry ! This forum mirrors the internet, where i was unable to find a clear answer to my question, hence this thread !


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Feb 16, 2018)

jules said:


> Hey there !
> I'm actually in the process of building a new computer (intel 8700k & w10) and wondering if M2 nvme is worth the money, when the samsung 860 evo & crucial MX 500 are much cheaper. So far my understanding is that M2 _sata_ is basicaly the same thing than a 2'5 ssd, so no gain here. But the _nvme_ thing ? With a M2 nvme as a c:, will cubase be more responsive ? Or is it better to keep the M2 ports for sample streaming ?
> I red every thread about this subject that i found (mostly here), but without beeing able to get a clear idea of the thing.
> 
> ...



I actually use a m.2 samsung 2 TB 960 pro running in nvme which is nice for both loading os, programs and streaming. It is definitely a good amount faster, but honestly: A normal SSD is also fine and also much cheaper.. so if you are not like me having templates like 40-50 Gb to load on a regular base, then go with a cheap standard samsung or even the cheaper crucual lowcost models.


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## jules (Feb 16, 2018)

Thank you, Alexander ! A M2 nvme as a c:, as suggested by you & ED, is pretty unexpansive, so i'm sold on this. I'm making a new build every ten years, so i tend to go with the best i can buy for a reasonable amount of money (ok, $1500 for a hard drive is not _that_ reasonable...)
I'll probably make a crash test by putting the same library on the c: m2 nvme & on a 860 evo sata, and see if i gut my piggy bank for the big brother...


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## EvilDragon (Feb 16, 2018)

Ronny D. Ana said:


> Sorry but I have a different opinion:
> You will start your OS once a day or once a week or whatever.



This is not just about starting OS once. Having OS and programs installed on an NVMe drive *makes the system respond snappier.* That is merit enough.


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## Piano Pete (Feb 16, 2018)

If you can afford it and you require the extra bit of performance, NVMe are worth the price per gig. Even if you are just putting the OS and software on it, I would always recommend to give yourself some breathing space, and do not max the drive out to its full capacity. There are some people who do this, but I try to avoid it at all costs. 

If budget is an issue, as it usually is, and the extra bit of snap is irrelevant to you, I would invest that money elsewhere in a system. I personally just use 850s; they are nice workhorses. I tried some fancier options, but I just did not feel that I required that extra performance based on the prices at the time. 

For a sample drive, I would recommend going with a regular SSD.


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## EvilDragon (Feb 16, 2018)

Piano Pete said:


> There are some people who do this, but I try to avoid it at all costs



For OS drive, sure, gotta have some provisioning.

For sample libraries, though, where you just read out from the drive, there's absolutely no need. Fill 'em up to the brim!


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## jules (Feb 16, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> on an NVMe drive *makes the system respond snappier.* That is merit enough.


Yep, sir : that's exactly what i'm searching for ! Thanks for pointing this out. Coming from a q6600/8gig system, i must experiment a bit of improvement... 


EvilDragon said:


> For sample libraries, though, where you just read out from the drive, there's absolutely no need. Fill 'em up to the brim!


That's what i'll do ! The os needs some space to breath, but the libraries are just read only, so...


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## OleJoergensen (Feb 17, 2018)

I bought a Intel nvme for Hollywood stings but the loadtime was not faster then a sata ssd because Play software is not able (yet) to load samples that fast, so I was disappointed. I have not tried to see if Kontakt can take advantages of the fast Nvme drives...


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## jules (Feb 17, 2018)

OleJoergensen said:


> I bought a Intel nvme for Hollywood stings but the loadtime was not faster then a sata ssd because Play software is not able (yet) to load samples that fast, so I was disappointed. I have not tried to see if Kontakt can take advantages of the fast Nvme drives...


Really ?? That's very interesting as i just completed the hollywood orchestra with the percs, and one one of my goals was precisely faster Play loading times. Does it also happens with Play 6 ? I red it's better at this.


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## chimuelo (Feb 17, 2018)

Loading samples from an app like Omnisphere works on SSDs but Keyscape+Omni is slower on SSDs.
I put STEAM Folder on NVMe with OS+Apps.
Rarely see the progress bar.
And that’s on a Plextor 2x NVMe that tops out at 1200MBps.

All other samples are not deleted like Omnisphere with every new Multi.
Streaming is happy on SSDs.
In my experience streaming from NVMe overheats the controller pretty quick causing it to throttle down.
Omni is like an Akai MPC taking it what it needs per performance/layout.


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## chimuelo (Feb 17, 2018)

Samsung NVMe Devices still kick but when they throttle down because they still retain fast random reads.
An NVMe I would keep my eye on is the MyDigitalSSD SBX Series with the new monster Phison Controller.

Don’t worry about benchmarks on these devices, just test them out on whatever you want to use it for and see wassup.
I got really insane benchmarks from AS-SSD on an H97 server board.
NVMe goes direct to the CPU, no pit stops at the PCH.
1,500,000MBps, etc.
All it does is just loads samples for Bidule and Keyscape quicker.






This random is insanely fast for those that understand benchmarks.
The 9000 series chipsets and i7 5775C CPU really stump benchmarks.


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## OleJoergensen (Feb 17, 2018)

jules said:


> Really ?? That's very interesting as i just completed the hollywood orchestra with the percs, and one one of my goals was precisely faster Play loading times. Does it also happens with Play 6 ? I red it's better at this.


Play 6 is faster then Play 5 but it does not take advantage of the Nvme max read speed of 2000 MB/s, I think Play peaks at 300 MB/s, it is what I have seen in windows task manager. So a sata ssd with 500-550 max read speed will be fine.


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## jules (Feb 18, 2018)

Thanks, guys, for your input ! Much appreciated !
@chimuelo : if i understand you right, you're basicaly saying a _x4 nvme M2_ used for streaming will struggle because of overheating, hence the _mydigitalsbx_ recommandation (which is x2) ? While looking at it, something hit me : the connectors between the mydigital and the samsung aren't the same. Looks like the mydigital is a sata M2, but it's branded as nvme...

http://www.samsung.com/ch_fr/memory-storage/960-evo-nvme-m-2-ssd/MZ-V6E1T0BW/

http://mydigitalssd.com/pcie-m2-ngff-ssd.php

@OleJoergensen : you sold me on the crucial mx500 2to ssd for eastwest purposes, thanks !


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## jules (Feb 18, 2018)

Huu... looks like my links are not showing up...
<solved>


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## EvilDragon (Feb 18, 2018)

There are SATA M.2 format drives, and these should be avoided really. IMHO M.2 should solely be used for NVMe, and SATA M.2 drives are just confusing everyone needlessly...


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## jules (Feb 18, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> There are SATA M.2 format drives, and these should be avoided really. IMHO M.2 should solely be used for NVMe, and SATA M.2 drives are just confusing everyone needlessly...


I totally agree. But looking at the mydigital M2 i linked above, it wears a NVME mark, along with a sata connector (or maybe i'm mistaken), which is highly confusing...


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## Leo (Feb 18, 2018)

Here is my experience. I have 2x M.2 (Intel) with raid 0, VSL Synchron Strings (standard lib.) with 4 mic per instrument and all 5 instruments and even also Ensemble with same 4 mic take together only 9,6GB RAM. Just fast streaming...


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## tack (Feb 18, 2018)

At least with Kontakt's compressed samples, NVMe is completely wasted. Decent SATA SSDs are too for that matter: I bottleneck my CPU decompressing the samples as they're being loaded in long before I bottleneck my storage. Uncompressed samples are likely a different story but this doesn't apply to most of my libraries. (Edit: well the story is a bit more nuanced and "completely wasted" is overreaching a bit.)

I agree with ED that you'll get more benefit using an NVMe device as your OS drive.


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## jules (Feb 18, 2018)

Thanks, tack. Can i ask you what cpu you're using ? Coming myself from a intel q6600 and upgrading to a i7 8700k, i hope to experiment a huge improvement and and not seeing it struggling at decompressing files !


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## tack (Feb 18, 2018)

jules said:


> Can i ask you what cpu you're using ?


8700K at 4.8GHz here. Before that came from a 6700K at 4.5GHz.

Decompression performance not significantly improved with the new CPU because the decompression work in Kontakt is single threaded (for no good reason). In any case, CPU remains the bottleneck while loading samples into memory.


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## jules (Feb 18, 2018)

Even with "multi cpu" (or watever it's called) enabled in kontakt ? Sob...  But kontakt 6 is just around the corner, so there's a glimmer of hope !


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## tack (Feb 18, 2018)

jules said:


> Even with "multi cpu" (or watever it's called) enabled in kontakt ?


Yep, that must affect just the playback engine. Sample loading remains single threaded.

It'd be nice if that was improved in Kontakt 6. This sort of thing is very trivially parallelizable.


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## jules (Feb 18, 2018)

Gosh. Looks like my lightning fast m2 computer is fading away a bit more with each post, . Glad you pointed this decompression thing out, because i had no idea about it. Between this and the Play loading capabilities limited to 300mo/s, i'd better go full ssds for storage and M2 nvme for system.
Looks like Evil dragon was right from the start  !


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## tack (Feb 18, 2018)

jules said:


> Looks like Evil dragon was right from the start  !


It's an annoying habit.


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## jamwerks (Feb 18, 2018)

Apart from samples loading, would NVMe M2 perform better than sata SSD on playback (reading), allowing lower VEP buffer settings?


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## jules (Feb 18, 2018)

jamwerks said:


> Apart from samples loading, would NVMe M2 perform better than sata SSD on playback (reading), allowing lower VEP buffer settings?


According to what's been said before, if you use kontakt or play, despite beeing loaded in vep, it should not. 
If i all understood well


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## tack (Feb 18, 2018)

I don't know about Play. I don't own any products that use Play so I don't know whether or not loading Play libraries is storage- or CPU-bottlenecked. I've just measured Kontakt in this way. So it could be that Play can benefit much more from faster storage than Kontakt.


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## EvilDragon (Feb 18, 2018)

Well, Play uses Blowfish encryption on samples, that's gotta take some toll...

Also I'm not exactly sure that Kontakt decompresses samples when you load an NKI (maybe just DFD buffer size worth for each sample, but actually I don't think that happens until the GUI is actually shown... loading an NKI is just parsing through it and allocating memory for zones, groups, effects, etc.). It decompresses on the fly during playback, for sure, though.


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## tack (Feb 18, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Also I'm not exactly sure that Kontakt decompresses samples when you load an NKI (maybe just DFD buffer size worth for each sample, but actually I don't think that happens until the GUI is actually shown... loading an NKI is just parsing through it and allocating memory for zones, groups, effects, etc.).


Yeah, I was really just referring to the process of streaming the samples in from disk after the UI was presented (assuming you aren't purging samples). The early stages of loading a patch also looks to be single threaded, but that's a bit more forgivable given I'm sure it's not so trivial to parallelize.

That said, I have to imagine it would be more straightforward to parallel-load multiple patches in the same Kontakt instance, and it's not doing that either. 

Given sample streaming is done in the background this isn't as annoying as the initial patch loading. In any case, that's got to be CPU bound as well as I haven't seen any changes in patch loading times on different types of (flash) storage.


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## jamwerks (Feb 18, 2018)

Is it pretty safe to say that Kontakt 6 will be able to benefit from NVMe speeds, so maybe the NVMe ssd's are a better long-term investment?


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## tack (Feb 18, 2018)

jamwerks said:


> Is it pretty safe to say that Kontakt 6 will be able to benefit from NVMe speeds


Probably not safe to say that. Unless ED wants to share some inside scoop


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## EvilDragon (Feb 19, 2018)

There are no inside scoops. :D It's not safe to say or expect anything until the official announcement is made... who knows when. It seems likely we'll have a few more 5.x versions to come.


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## jules (Feb 19, 2018)

Just found this interesting video :

Mainly a vs (samsung 960 vs mx500) but they speak about M2 towards the end.


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## cola2410 (Feb 21, 2018)

Very interesting topic as I'm basically between two fires - DRAM-heavy setup or high-end NVMe add-in cards and streaming, both options are costly these days. Ready to go for HEDT CPU (10-16 cores) as well if it helps but not sure at the moment it's worth going that route. Kontakt decompression issue may have an impact though - didn't know that because even on the current machine never noticed high load because of just sample playing. FX yes they take the toll along with CPU-heavy VSTs.


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## jules (Feb 21, 2018)

cola2410 said:


> I'm basically between two fires - DRAM-heavy setup or high-end NVMe add-in cards .


You need both ! But as said in topic, nvme mainly for os and non kontakt/play libs.


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## Pablocrespo (Jul 5, 2018)

Reviving this thread, is there any gain in dividing OS drive and samples still?

If I get a 1tb m2 and use it for both is worse than say 500gb m2 and 500gb sata for samples?


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## EvilDragon (Jul 5, 2018)

Probably not worse, but it still makes a lot of sense to separate samples to individual drives, because the OS drive gets lots of writes and reads and deletes, whereas the sample drive is written to very rarely (when you get a new library, or move them across your drives), deleted from very rarely, and they are just read from - it's just good practice and common sense.


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## Pablocrespo (Jul 5, 2018)

Thanks Mario, now I have to research the best option for thunderbolt in windows....but thats a different subject


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## Ronny D. Ana (Jul 6, 2018)

Pablocrespo said:


> Reviving this thread, is there any gain in dividing OS drive and samples still?



Also take your backup/disaster strategy into consideration. Separating OS/Programs from samples could point you in a direction where you may not need to backup the sample drive, because you eventually could download them again from the sample provider. If you prefer to backup the samples anyway you could backup the sample disk not that often as the OS disk. Next point would be the single point of failure. With two disks you still can use the computer when the sample disks is broken. And when OS disk is broken you only have to restore the OS, the samples are still there.
Next point is, if you want to make a new clean install for whatsoever reason, you can do this without having to reinstall the samples.


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## EvilDragon (Jul 6, 2018)

Pablocrespo said:


> Thanks Mario, now I have to research the best option for thunderbolt in windows....but thats a different subject



There are some Z170/Z270/Z370 motherboards that support TB via add-on card. AsRock, Asus and Gigabyte for sure have them. i.e. check out AsRock Z370 Taichi.


Oh and Z170 is TB2, Z270/370 are TB3 - pretty important to note!


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## jules (Jul 6, 2018)

Pablocrespo said:


> Thanks Mario, now I have to research the best option for thunderbolt in windows....but thats a different subject


Why would you go for thunderbolt when you already have usb3 & sata (and sata extensions via pcie adapters) ? I built a new computer a few months ago with a asus z370 prime and it comes with a thunderbolt port, but i came to the conclusion usb3/sata were better options for external storage/streaming. Am i missing something ? 
Concerning the os/sample storage thing, i ad my voice to others : way better on different drives. This way you can ghost your os only. Not to say your os drive will age quicker that your storage ones.


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## Pablocrespo (Jul 6, 2018)

It is not intended for data or streaming. 

I have a motu avb interface (which I love) that has thunderbolt or usb2, so I would like to try thunderbolt to see if there is any improvement to be gained in terms of stability and latency over usb2. For what I’ve read the improvement is real and would not like to cripple the future options if I have to buy now.


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## EvilDragon (Jul 6, 2018)

TB should result in less CPU utilization compared to USB. Latency perhaps a little bit, nothing drastic.

It's the best choice for audio interfaces as it allows huge data throughput, which enables my UFX+ to use 128 I/O channels more than with USB2 (64 in and 64 out via MADI)


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## Pablocrespo (Jul 6, 2018)

In your experience you don´t think it will help me run my huge template with a lower buffer setting than usb2 and be stable?

If there is not much to be gain regarding low buffer stability (as with rme pci cards) you don´t think I would need to bother with TB?


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## jules (Jul 7, 2018)

Maybe with thunderbolt you'll benefit from a better grounding isolation, which is sometimes a serious problem with usb. I live in a old house with no grounding at all and with usb soundcards, my dp4s ensoniq are buzzing like hell (or like a fridge, to quote tom york ).


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## jules (Jul 7, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> It's the best choice for audio interfaces as it allows huge data throughput, which enables my UFX+ to use 128 I/O channels more than with USB2 (64 in and 64 out via MADI)


128 _more_ ? You're seriously in orchestral recording, now.


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## EvilDragon (Jul 7, 2018)

That's inputs and outputs both (MADI supports 64 in 64 out). No, I just use that to connect all my racked synths (and for future expansion)


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## Ronny D. Ana (Jul 7, 2018)

Pablocrespo said:


> I would like to try thunderbolt to see if there is any improvement to be gained in terms of stability and latency over usb2.



Latency is not part of the protocol definition. It depends on the engineers of the audio device and the programmers of the drivers. But this does not mean that this is the only influence referring of latency. There are CPU, overall system performance, Software, ...


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## EvilDragon (Jul 7, 2018)

Well with USB there IS latency that is generated by front and rear USB busses...


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## jules (Jul 7, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> I just use that to connect all my racked synths (and for future expansion)


Dohh. A third Microwave ? Good call . Someday this one will end up in my racks, once i'll figure if i chase the rev A or the rev B.
Edit : and while were're at it (and in advance, sorry for the off topic) : i remember reading a post of yours on gearslutz about a powder coating thing. The Op managed to make up his microwave xt in an incredible way. Did you find a company that offer such a service ? I'm looking for the same thing (but to this day i failed miserably).


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## EvilDragon (Jul 7, 2018)

Mine is rev B. It's basically filter character that is somewhat different. Many people like rev A more ("it's fatter"), but IMHO it's a subtle difference (CEM3389 in rev A vs 3387 in rev B, which was by the way also used in the huge and mighty Waldorf Wave). Either way you can't go wrong.



jules said:


> i remember reading a post of yours on gearslutz about a powder coating thing. The Op managed to make up his microwave xt in an incredible way. Did you find a company that offer such a service ? I'm looking for the same thing (but to this day i failed miserably).



Nope, I didn't, but perhaps it could be a good idea to PM the guy who did that to his MWI.


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## jules (Jul 7, 2018)

Thanks for the link !


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## bosDAW (Apr 21, 2020)

OleJoergensen said:


> I bought a Intel nvme for Hollywood stings but the loadtime was not faster then a sata ssd because Play software is not able (yet) to load samples that fast, so I was disappointed. I have not tried to see if Kontakt can take advantages of the fast Nvme drives...


Old thread, so not sure if you will be reading this, but could you possibly elaborate? When you said NVMe was no faster, was it SATA2 or SATA3? Did you actually time it? And how large a template/project were you loading? I just posted some questions in an overlapping thread in this same subforum, but did you experience any changes since this last post?


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## OleJoergensen (Apr 22, 2020)

bosDAW said:


> Old thread, so not sure if you will be reading this, but could you possibly elaborate? When you said NVMe was no faster, was it SATA2 or SATA3? Did you actually time it? And how large a template/project were you loading? I just posted some questions in an overlapping thread in this same subforum, but did you experience any changes since this last post?


It is a NVMe pci-drive 2000 MB pr. Sec. , the Sata drive is Sata 3 550 MB pr. sec. The problem is that Play and Kontakt dont take advance of this fast drive....yet.


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## bosDAW (Apr 22, 2020)

So, for instance, did "no change" mean a template that took 26s to open on a SATA3 take ~21s with NVMe? Or you mean exactly the same, as in 26.0001s SATA3 and 26.0001s NVMe? And that is not meant to be sarcastic!  I am just curious if you meant no practical difference vs 100% equivalence, as in "if you are expecting even a 0.1s improvement you will be disappointed".


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## OleJoergensen (Apr 22, 2020)

bosDAW said:


> So, for instance, did "no change" mean a template that took 26s to open on a SATA3 take ~21s with NVMe? Or you mean exactly the same, as in 26.0001s SATA3 and 26.0001s NVMe? And that is not meant to be sarcastic!  I am just curious if you meant no practical difference vs 100% equivalence, as in "if you are expecting even a 0.1s improvement you will be disappointed".


It is 2 years ago, I dont remember exactly. But both Play and the Intel NVMe driver has been updated since, so it could have changed.


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## brynolf (Apr 23, 2020)

I skipped M2 drives as they ate up two Sata slots each.


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## bosDAW (Apr 23, 2020)

OleJoergensen said:


> It is 2 years ago, I dont remember exactly. But both Play and the Intel NVMe driver has been updated since, so it could have changed.


Thanks OleJoergensen. It seems that SATA is still by far the best value until software catches up. Or at least, replacing existing SATA drives is probably not worth it yet.


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## tack (Apr 23, 2020)

brynolf said:


> I skipped M2 drives as they ate up two Sata slots each.


Depends on the motherboard and the M.2 slot, and of course whether you have a SATA M.2 or NVMe M.2


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## brynolf (Apr 23, 2020)

tack said:


> Depends on the motherboard and the M.2 slot, and of course whether you have a SATA M.2 or NVMe M.2


Yes. Changing motherboard did seem like a bit too much hassle for not too much gain.


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