# First library for a newbie. Albion One vs Metropolis Ark 1



## MorriconeFan (Aug 19, 2018)

Hi guys.
I read a lot of threads about both, but i can't decide.

I'm a big fan of Morricone, and other classical works like Tchaikovsky, etc.
My main goal is classical, not much film scoring.

What would you choose? (remember, i'm not made of money)


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## MarcelM (Aug 19, 2018)

for a beginner there is nothing better than east west composer cloud.

just my 2 cents


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## DivingInSpace (Aug 19, 2018)

Honestly, I would try to look for something not ensemble based, if your goal is classical. These two libraries only has ensemble patches and has a sound aimed more or less specifically on film scoring. I would say try looking at the East West Libraries instead. Hollywood and symphony orchestra should both be around the same price as the mentioned above.


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## sostenuto (Aug 19, 2018)

Maybe take plenty of time to decide …… you could consider downloading and enjoying very generous free Demo of Red Room Audio's Palette _ Primary Colors. Quality content from which to grow, and very current.  

*(edit) * This requires Full version of Kontakt 5 which you may not yet use. !!!
*
https://redroomaudio.com/*

Welcome and happy composing !


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## MarcelM (Aug 19, 2018)

sostenuto said:


> Maybe take plenty of time to decide …… you could consider downloading and enjoying very generous free Demo of Red Room Audio's Palette _ Primary Colors. This is quality content from which to grow, and very current.
> 
> *https://redroomaudio.com/*
> 
> Welcome and happy composing !



this requires full version of kontakt 5. not sure if he has that.


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## sostenuto (Aug 19, 2018)

Heroix said:


> this requires full version of kontakt 5. not sure if he has that.


Good catch !  Edited orig post.


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## NoamL (Aug 19, 2018)

Try EastWest Composer Cloud. It's cheap, and you get the full orchestra with separate string sections, separate woodwind soloists, etc. That's very important if you want to write classical music. I don't think it would be easy to write classical influenced music with Ark 1.


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## ysnyvz (Aug 19, 2018)

MorriconeFan said:


> What would you choose?


I have both of them. But I wouldn't dare to imitate Morricone with them.


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## MorriconeFan (Aug 19, 2018)

ysnyvz said:


> I have both of them. But I wouldn't dare to imitate Morricone with them.



What would you use? I just picked those 2 because i've seen people frequently talking about them.
Composer Cloud could be a start, but what after that?


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## MarcelM (Aug 19, 2018)

try composer cloud (you can cancel at any time) and then buy hollywood orchestra gold or diamond when it is on sale again. or maybe the spitfire symphonic orchestra on black friday.


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## MarcelM (Aug 19, 2018)

since you are beginner you may also want to write maybe for strings first.

in this case i would buy cinematic studio strings. then wait for cinematic studio brass which will be released this year i guess.

CSS is easy to work with and i guess ppl say its the best string library out there.


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## MorriconeFan (Aug 19, 2018)

Heroix said:


> try composer cloud (you can cancel at any time) and then buy hollywood orchestra gold or diamond when it is on sale again. or maybe the spitfire symphonic orchestra on black friday.


I like this idea (i hope they go really cheap on CM), but i thought a library like that would be to hard for me to use it properly..


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## MarcelM (Aug 19, 2018)

MorriconeFan said:


> I like this idea (i hope they go really cheap on CM), but i thought a library like that would be to hard for me to use it properly..



every library takes some time to learn. actually i bought diamond just a few month ago and its not really that hard to use. with composer cloud you also get spaces 2 which is an awesome reverb and ALOT of other instruments to play with.

if i were in your shoes id go with composer cloud.

you get diamond for like 499$ when it is on sale, and there is nothing what comes close to it considering the price.

gold was on sale for around 240$ on vstbuzz if i remember right.

iam sure similar sales will pop up soon in the future and gold is ofcourse good enough for the start.


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## jbuhler (Aug 19, 2018)

I second the recommendations of Composer Cloud, which is the most economical way to figure out what libraries you might need. The ensemble approach of Ark and Albion One is good for sketching, but it locks you into a certain approach, which you may or may not find overly constraining. 

If you feel you really want to go with one of these two libraries, Ark is louder (mf to fff), has choir, and has a finer grained access to sections, but it lacks upper woodwinds, which would have been a big issue for me if it had been my first library. You might also find that Capsule beats up your computer if it is at all under powered. It does have some very excellent patches, however. Albion One is one notch down in dynamics (mp-ff) and comes with a lot of useful hybrid patches. Albion One runs perfectly fine even on my old 2012 i7 16GB 2.7ghz MacBook Pro, whereas the laptop struggles if I use too many patches from Orchestral Tools. 

One other thing, neither Ark nor Albion One has timp or harp.


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## richardt4520 (Aug 19, 2018)

Heroix said:


> for a beginner there is nothing better than east west composer cloud.
> just my 2 cents


Best bang for the buck and you're not stuck with a loss with "not for resale" if you don't like it.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 19, 2018)

MorriconeFan said:


> I'm a big fan of Morricone, and other classical works like Tchaikovsky, etc.
> My main goal is classical, not much film scoring.



In this case, none of them. They're both way to limited for detailed writing.

I view them as libraries for "producers" who need ready-made orchestral "sounds". A driving ostinato figure here, an "emotional" unison strings melody line there, some powerful brass. I don't write in that style, and could never rely on Albion alone for anything I do. I use it as auxilliary and layering tools to add dimension, liveliness and color to things that have been already fleshed out in detail using dedicated libraries.

Don't own Metropolis, but it's the same ballpark.


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## MorriconeFan (Aug 19, 2018)

I'm starting to understand. 
I was into the idea of those small libraries because i only have 32gb of RAM. 
This hobby seems too expensive for me.. sad.


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## MarcelM (Aug 19, 2018)

MorriconeFan said:


> I'm starting to understand.
> I was into the idea of those small libraries because i only have 32gb of RAM.
> This hobby seems too expensive for me.. sad.



32gb is enough for composer cloud.


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## MarcelM (Aug 19, 2018)

composer cloud (mid mic) will not sound that much worse 

actually you can make it sound even better than in the youtube video, but it might give you an idea.


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## keepitsimple (Aug 19, 2018)

Heroix said:


> composer cloud (mid mic) will not sound that much worse
> 
> actually you can make it sound even better than in the youtube video, but it might give you an idea.



And he can later add the close mics if he wants with composer cloud x.


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## ysnyvz (Aug 19, 2018)

MorriconeFan said:


> What would you use? I just picked those 2 because i've seen people frequently talking about them.
> Composer Cloud could be a start, but what after that?


You are looking for something like this:
https://www.steinberg.net/en/products/vst/iconica/sections_and_players.html


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## jbuhler (Aug 19, 2018)

MorriconeFan said:


> I'm starting to understand.
> I was into the idea of those small libraries because i only have 32gb of RAM.
> This hobby seems too expensive for me.. sad.


32GB of RAM is fine. Something like the regular Orchestral Tools line up would bring it to its knees, but for most things you won't find an issue. If you are a hobbyist, that is a different question still, but I think Composer Cloud is still your best bet for starting out and figuring out what you want because there is so much content available and you don't have to make thousands of dollars of mistakes buying libraries that you can't resell. 

I should say Ark and Albion One are both extremely fun. They allow you to make a big sound very easily. You can feel the epic power. The a9 horns in Ark is a patch that always brings me joy whenever I take it out. It's just so rich, noble, and over the top, just the way 9 horns in unison should be. But these libraries have real limitations if you are trying to do more intimate stuff. That may not matter to you if the hobby you want is making sounds like big trailer or cinema scores. They will do that for you. 

Another possibility would be one of the Orchestral Essentials from Project Sam. I only have the Symphobia sets, but the demo tutorials that use Essentials (https://www.projectsam.com/Tutorials) suggest that they have lots of interesting combinations that would be fun to play with.


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## bill45 (Aug 19, 2018)

VSL special edition 1 with the + articulations


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## sostenuto (Aug 19, 2018)

I posted early, and the Full Kontakt5 requirement arose. I use it daily and also tried E/W CC for several months.

I have no criticism here, but you must also be clear on E/W Play6 as you commit early on. 
Again, no criticism, but be sure to factor into your decisions.


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## RandomComposer (Aug 19, 2018)

If you're looking for something modestly priced for writing classical scores without much difficulty, have you had a look into Noteperformer? It integrates into Sibelius/Finale/Dorico (I'm assuming that you have one of these if you're writing classical)
https://www.noteperformer.com/


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## NoamL (Aug 19, 2018)

MorriconeFan said:


> Composer Cloud could be a start, but what after that?



If you are entirely new to virtual instruments, get used to writing with ComposerCloud, then you will be in a much better position to judge what other libraries you like, or what you need to fill gaps in your palette. 

There are a lot of woodwind libraries that are better than EastWest (just in my opinion) like VSL Winds, Berlin Woodwinds and Spitfire Symphonic Winds, however each one costs over $500. 

Similarly there are LOTS of good string libraries out there; especially if you're writing for a more modest classical-sized orchestra then consider Cinematic Studio Strings ($400) or Berlin Strings (it's like $800 if I remember correctly). However I wouldn't pick CSS as your very first library as there are a lot of features that are slightly counter-intuitive for a newbie.

The advantage of ComposerCloud is you will be able to get started writing for orchestra and familiarize yourself with standard MIDI controls for virtual instruments, with a very easy to use & decent sounding product, all for less than the price of ONE orchestral section of the more professional libraries. 

As for brass, I think EastWest Hollywood Brass (included in Composer Cloud) is still one of the best options available for classical writing.


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## bigcat1969 (Aug 19, 2018)

Since you mention money, if you just want to try your hand for free you can try this...
http://www.vst4free.com/free_vst.php?plugin=VSCO2_Rompler&id=2734

It is not to the level of the things the fellows are talking about here, but you know free and use it for anything / no strings attached. I don't know what you already have but Cakewalk by Bandlab is a decent free DAW.


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## ptram (Aug 19, 2018)

For a beginner planning to buy Kontakt for one reason or the other, the VSL Legacy sounds (with the SIPS and WIPS scripts) are really not bad.

Paolo


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## Brian Nowak (Aug 19, 2018)

I run CSS, Cinebrass, the Arks, Berlin WW and Percussion and more on 32 gigs of RAM. You just can't make insanely huge templates with every articulation in the books. 

But yeah if you're looking to do more detailed stuff and don't want to blow the bank, EW Cloud is where it's at. 

The Arks are awesome but they're blunt force weapons. And Albions are pretty specialized.


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## SchnookyPants (Aug 19, 2018)

MorriconeFan said:


> I'm starting to understand.
> I was into the idea of those small libraries because i only have 32gb of RAM.
> This hobby seems too expensive for me.. sad.



Too expensive!? That hasn't stopped any of _us_. Besides, you meet a lot of interesting people at the soup kitchen.


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## brek (Aug 19, 2018)

Composer Cloud is great for "newbs" because the cost of entry is low, but Hollywood Orchestra itself is not what I would call "beginner friendly". The advantage is you won't have to replace it down the line once you're no longer a newb, but you wouldn't be the first to throw their hands up in frustration trying to figure it out and just giving up on the whole thing. I would consider EWQLSO a more beginner friendly library. That might be part of composer cloud too.

I wouldn't necessarily rule out using an ensemble based library. They're a *fun *(don't underestimate this component) way to get into composing, and if you want to write for the individual sections you just create a separate MIDI track and have at it using the same patch. Works better for strings than brass or woodwinds. 

That said, I wouldn't necessarily recommend Albion I or Ark for what it sounds like you want to do. I would think you'd be better off with Berlin Inspire or Palette Symphonic Sketchpad. Orchestral Essentials is good for that too.


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## Sami (Aug 19, 2018)

Get Pallette and learn how to use it well, it is an incredible library.


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## JonAdamich (Aug 19, 2018)

+1 on composer cloud. You can get into some bad habits starting with only ensemble based products.


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## TheSigillite (Aug 19, 2018)

@MorriconeFan Welcome to this forum. I'm a Hobbyist as well and I just got started back in June of this year. This forum is fantastic and I would definitely listen to their advice. They can be a great community and fountain of knowledge! I'm not very keen on subscriptions. So I wanted to purchase my libraries outright. I was looking for a classical approach with a possibility of getting a little loud, not so much epic (but now that i've listened to a few tracks I'm interested). For the sound you mentioned I Would suggest the route Brek mentioned earlier:

*Berlin Orchestra Inspire 1 & 2.* (I would recommend this for your mentioned composers, And possibly a nice voice library with some legatos to get some of that Morricone vibe going, check out Soundiron or Organic Samples for this)
*Red Room Pallet Symphonic Sketchpad with Melodics brush set*. (Don't own this but feel it's a great value for the content and requirements you have mentioned aka 32 GB RAM)
*Project SAM Orchestral essentials 1 & 2.* (another great value with great sounding recordings)

I went a little GAS (gear acquisition syndrome) crazy and also purchased CSS & CSSS, CinesBrass Core and Pro, Lots of 8DIO sale stuff, Soundiron sale stuff, Audiobro Genesis (first ever purchase and absolutely no regrets!) L&S chamber Strings, ( I still haven't found the woodwind library that calls to me yet, etc... This hobby can definitely get expensive. But I always go back to tinker with the ensemble patches. I'm a hobbyist after all and not looking to create master mixes to be played back in games or film. I get fast and pleasing results when i use them, plus i just wanted to load it and play. I like having the others, and I'll keep collecting, just in case I ever get the time to expand on a piece. If I spent as much time writing a piece as I did researching the next sample library to purchase I might actually have a piece finished! lol. Best of luck tho and please share your compositions in the appropriate sub for us to listen and appreciate.


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## Robo Rivard (Aug 19, 2018)

To me, there are two good options:
- Composer Cloud on a prepaid annual basis.
- Red Room Palette + Brush Pack 1 "Melodic".


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## ein fisch (Aug 19, 2018)

Can someone explain why itd be so difficult to write classical music with albion? Why could you not achieve that with ensemble patches


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## Robo Rivard (Aug 19, 2018)

ein fisch said:


> Can someone explain why itd be so difficult to write classical music with albion? Why could you not achieve that with ensemble patches


Because you can't remove musicians from a sample.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 19, 2018)

ein fisch said:


> Can someone explain why itd be so difficult to write classical music with albion? Why could you not achieve that with ensemble patches



Mainly two reasons: you need full control of the sections. Can't have trumpets and horns play in octaves all the time. Can't have the violas play in unison with 1st & 2nd violins all the time. 
The other thing is that you can't realize such music with only "short" and "long" articulations.


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## Consona (Aug 20, 2018)

MorriconeFan said:


> Hi guys.
> I read a lot of threads about both, but i can't decide.
> 
> I'm a big fan of Morricone, and other classical works like Tchaikovsky, etc.
> ...





MorriconeFan said:


> What would you use? I just picked those 2 because i've seen people frequently talking about them.
> Composer Cloud could be a start, but what after that?





MorriconeFan said:


> I'm starting to understand.
> I was into the idea of those small libraries because i only have 32gb of RAM.
> This hobby seems too expensive for me.. sad.


Conclusion?

IMHO.

Since you want to compose more classical rather than modern film music, Albion or Ark 1 are same of the last libraries you would need.

And since you think it's sad how expensive this hobby is, why do you want to invest to anything other than Composer Cloud when it's basically all you need for the rest of your life? Maybe it's due to this forum gives you an impression you need bazillion libraries and buy more and more every sale and what not, which is actually not the case. Of course you'll most probably find some limitations and things you don't like about EWQL libs so you'll want to buy something else too, but for now, I don't think that's something you should worry about.


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## Saxer (Aug 20, 2018)

VSL Special Edition. Everything basic in there. Pure classical tone. No ensembles, all single instrument sections. Light on computer resources.


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## dcoscina (Aug 20, 2018)

Hollywood Orchestra Silver is more than adequate to start and won’t brrak the bank nor kill your computer. I use it all the time on my MB Air i7 running only 8gb of Ram. 

The Berlin Inspire series is also a good place to start and is also good for modest budgets and computer resources (though honestly 32gb of Ram is plenty unless you are needing a big template)


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## kgdrum (Aug 20, 2018)

Agreed 32 gig of ram will work.
But imo there's a few important details necessary to know if anything East West is appropriate for the OP that I don't think has been addressed.
Does the OP use Windows or Mac? What DAW?
Does he have SSD's?
What's his computer setup, will he use a slave etc.....
Without this info imo it's difficult to make an informed recommendation.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 20, 2018)

Saxer said:


> VSL Special Edition. Everything basic in there. Pure classical tone. No ensembles, all single instrument sections. Light on computer resources.



Agreed. This is exactly in the right ballpark.


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## Parsifal666 (Aug 20, 2018)

Heroix said:


> 32gb is enough for composer cloud.



I'm at 32 gb laptop (Windows 10) and my programs work great. The only one that takes awhile loading is the Garritan CFX. Everything else, including EW, loads quite nicely.

I completely agree with EW CC. Not only are those libraries still being used by pros (including semi-pros like me), but as mentioned you don't get stuck with NFR. I personally think their Hollywood and Stormdrum series are top of the line libraries...I'd never recommend Albion One or Ark to someone just starting out.

Actually, I just plain wouldn't recommend Albion One (for one thing, the room sound is way too baked in and it's difficult to mix with other libraries). If you find you're seriously committed after messing with EW get Albion Legacy (which from an overall perspective is easily as good as A1 imo, plus cheaper). And again, you'll mostly be using AL for sketches...don't expect too much more from it.

 if someday you decide you're big on big and epic (and have an at least good _idea _of how to handle libraries), pick up Ark 1. Please keep in mind that, along with the missing instruments listed above, Ark 1 is all about overwhelming power, all the time. It's possible to write subtly with that library, but it's easier to simply switch to EW (which can me made to sound easily as good imo) when writing in softer, louder, or anywhere in between. The Hollywood Strings series is your main stop for malleable, great-sounding samples, and most of the super useful articulations.

Just my opinion. 

Fair warning: I keep asking EW for free libraries and get nothing (LOL!).​


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## angeruroth (Aug 20, 2018)

Not sure if you are a VI newbie or a composition newbie.

If you are a composition newbie:
- If you are using a DAW you can start with the sounds provided by it. You may discover something good there.
- If you are using a notation software you can start with the default midi sounds. I know, the sound is... well, it is plain midi. But when I discovered my first notation soft (yeah, ages ago) I was amazed.

If you are a VI newbie:
- Composer Cloud is good and cheap in the short term.
- EWQL Symphonic Orchestra (wait for a Black Friday or something like that) have everything you need to write for orchestra and will be a good deal.
- There are lots of freebies outhere, but you most certanly would need Kontakt Full.
- Spitfire doesn't require Kontakt Full, so you could discount that from the price. Same goes for OT.
- 8dio needs Kontakt Full, but that's just one payment...

Anyway, everything depends on how you want to approach this.
You may want to limit yourself and take only strings with a great sound, or maybe you don't need the best sound and what you want is the full orchestra, or you could want good brass and mix it with midi woodwinds and strings, or viceversa... or maybe you start thinking about grouped sections as your background and other instruments leading...

There are so many variables...
Whatever you choose, you'll need time to learn how to use your libs, how to play it and/or apply CCs...


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## Mike Fox (Aug 20, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> I'm at 32 gb laptop (Windows 10) and my programs work great. The only one that takes awhile loading is the Garritan CFX. Everything else, including EW, loads quite nicely.
> 
> I completely agree with EW CC. Not only are those libraries still being used by pros (including semi-pros like me), but as mentioned you don't get stuck with NFR. I personally think their Hollywood and Stormdrum series are top of the line libraries...I'd never recommend Albion One or Ark to someone just starting out.
> 
> ...


Hey Parsifal,

Which laptop are you using,and what's your HD situation with that?

I've been thinking about making the switch from desktop to laptop, but my 2008 mac pro allows 4 SSD's, and 64gb of ram.


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## StatKsn (Aug 20, 2018)

Isn't 32GB RAM more than enough provided that one has a decent SSD? I don't really think you'll need to load up all the samples into the RAM. The only situation I could think of that 32GB RAM isn't enough is a huge solo sections library like Berlin Brass.


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## MarcelM (Aug 20, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> I'm at 32 gb laptop (Windows 10) and my programs work great. The only one that takes awhile loading is the Garritan CFX. Everything else, including EW, loads quite nicely.
> 
> I completely agree with EW CC. Not only are those libraries still being used by pros (including semi-pros like me), but as mentioned you don't get stuck with NFR. I personally think their Hollywood and Stormdrum series are top of the line libraries...I'd never recommend Albion One or Ark to someone just starting out.
> 
> ...



can you still buy albion legacy?


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## Mike Fox (Aug 20, 2018)

To the OP,

I also recommend Composer Cloud. If it turns out you like the Hollywood series, then i suggest just buying it on sale. Nothing even comes close for the price, and those libraries sound just as good (if not better) than anything else out there.


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## Parsifal666 (Aug 20, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> Hey Parsifal,
> 
> Which laptop are you using,and what's your HD situation with that?
> 
> I've been thinking about making the switch from desktop to laptop, but my 2008 mac pro allows 4 SSD's, and 64gb of ram.



Full info attached, Mike. I bought this computer last year and it has its own idiosyncracies and bummers about it. However, it packs a more than respectable wallop in terms of performance. I have to mention my owning a Samsung 500 SSD card, but it's only used for libraries I rarely employ in my compositions...I highly recommend never buying an external SSD card (at least, one the size of Samsung's) for a laptop, especially if you spend a lot of time with it in your lap. 

I average over six hours a day writing, arranging, editing, and orchestrating my music, mostly from a "foof" (my arthritis makes it so I can no longer sit at a desk). The laptop makes that happen.



Heroix said:


> can you still buy albion legacy?



Yow, thanks for bringing that up, Heroix. I thought you could, but I guess that might not make sense. I'm curious, now.


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## Parsifal666 (Aug 20, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> To the OP,
> 
> I also recommend Composer Cloud. If it turns out you like the Hollywood series, then i suggest just buying it on sale. Nothing even comes close for the price, and those libraries sound just as good (if not better) than anything else out there.



I remember when I first got to the board I expected the younger members to be all about Spitfire and younger developers. I was pleasantly surprised to see how _many_ people were still using EW products. 

I remain a great lover of Hollywood Strings, Brass, and Stormdrums 2 and 3, and use them in 80% of my compositions to this very day. Hollywood Woodwinds is good, too...but I have to break down and get Berlin Woodwinds because the former doesn't have ensembles.

I might mention that I'm always hard on Albion One, however I'm a fan of the woodwinds and some of the brass legato there. The thing is, I could have easily lived without that library.


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## Mike Fox (Aug 20, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> Full info attached, Mike. I bought this computer last year and it has its own idiosyncracies and bummers about it. However, it packs a more than respectable wallop in terms of performance. I have to mention my owning a Samsung 500 SSD card, but it's only used for libraries I rarely employ in my compositions...I highly recommend never buying an external SSD card (at least, one the size of Samsung's) for a laptop, especially if you spend a lot of time with it in your lap.
> 
> I average over six hours a day writing, arranging, editing, and orchestrating my music, mostly from a "foof" (my arthritis makes it so I can no longer sit at a desk). The laptop makes that happen.
> 
> ...


Thanks!


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## Mike Fox (Aug 20, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> I remember when I first got to the board I expected the younger members to be all about Spitfire and younger developers. I was pleasantly surprised to see how _many_ people were still using EW products.
> 
> I remain a great lover of Hollywood Strings, Brass, and Stormdrums 2 and 3, and use them in 80% of my compositions to this very day. Hollywood Woodwinds is good, too...but I have to break down and get Berlin Woodwinds because the former doesn't have ensembles.
> 
> I might mention that I'm always hard on Albion One, however I'm a fan of the woodwinds and some of the brass legato there. The thing is, I could have easily lived without that library.


I'm quite hard on ONE as well. There's really only a few patches that I use from it. I'm usually not a big fan of libs with baked in verb. I love the Arks, but those libs are drenched, and can be difficult to layer with other libs (for me, anyways) because of it.


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## Parsifal666 (Aug 20, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> I'm quite hard on ONE as well. There's really only a few patches that I use from it. I'm usually not a big fan of libs with baked in verb. I love the Arks, but those libs are drenched, and can be difficult to layer with other libs (for me, anyways) because of it.



Oh yeah, I just had to give up and put A1 on that rarely-used-SSD card. I tried so hard to mix it in with EW and the Hein...I mean, even with solely close micing you hear the heck out of that room. Sticks out like a mah in mixes...it's ridiculous.

Imagine if SF gave us all apologies and full refunds for the semi-disaster that was A1 

Aww heck I don't want to be too hard on Spitfire, as I do own libraries I love very much by them; off the top of my head *Iceni*...I mean, there's still that frustrating room thing, but it's nowhere near as ubiquitous and overbearing as A1 (not to mention that library is a monster for disgustingly (in the "good" way) rude, low woodwinds, rugged strings). *Evo 2*, *Uist* (oh heck yeah, great one there!), and of course my favorite library (well, at least most fun) ever, BHCT.


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## keepitsimple (Aug 20, 2018)

The timing of this thread and the nods for EWQL libraries is interesting hence only recently i've been digging deeper into their libraries with Composer Cloud X and honestly i've been nothing but impressed with the quality, not only with the Hollywood series ( i especially love those legato slur patches) but also with their non-orchestral stuff. 

For example i've been looking for a decade for a natural sounding and playable classical guitar VI and the Gypsy library stopped my search instantly as soon i played the included classical guitar in it (off topic sorry).


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## chocobitz825 (Aug 20, 2018)

keepitsimple said:


> The timing of this thread and the nods for EWQL libraries is interesting hence only recently i've been digging deeper into their libraries with Composer Cloud X and honestly i've been nothing but impressed with the quality, not only with the Hollywood series ( i especially love those legato slur patches) but also with their non-orchestral stuff.
> 
> For example i've been looking for a decade for a natural sounding and playable classical guitar VI and the Gypsy library stopped my search instantly as soon i played the included classical guitar in it (off topic sorry).



its the perfect plan for people who want to transition down the line. i went with the top tier, so the entire library and future releases are always included. No matter how many libraries I get, there is always something in east west that is not included in other libraries, or at the very least, something that sounds great when blended with another library. its just a really solid main unit, that makes a really great backup for various sounds and instruments.


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## ptram (Aug 20, 2018)

RandomComposer said:


> If you're looking for something modestly priced for writing classical scores without much difficulty, have you had a look into Noteperformer?


If the OP is using a supported notation program, I agree that NotePerformer will be the most immediately satisfactory solution. It can play a piece as a real performer, instead of like a computer.

Paolo


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## Consona (Aug 20, 2018)

I haven't tried it yet, but the amount of content for $300 a year is insane. When I compare it to what I've bought, used and not used and what I cannot resell, wow, I have to rethink buying any new libraries before I try CC.


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## keepitsimple (Aug 20, 2018)

I wonder what stops other companies with big archives like Spitfire or 8dio to go the cloud subscription route, does it have to do with a Kontakt/Native Instruments policy of some kind? If so, can't they just use their own sampler plugin like Spitfire did with Zimmer strings and Labs and go ahead and do it?


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## chocobitz825 (Aug 20, 2018)

keepitsimple said:


> I wonder what stops other companies with big archives like Spitfire or 8dio to go the cloud subscription route, does it have to do with a Kontakt/Native Instruments policy of some kind? If so, can't they just use their own sampler plugin like Spitfire did with Zimmer strings and Labs and go ahead and do it?



i really wish more of them would do it. its so great to have access to all various libraries to decide if you wanna keep paying for the cloud or just buy the ones you know you'll use.


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## dcoscina (Aug 20, 2018)

Personally I would always endorse a full orchestra library to newcomers rather than ensemble based ones (which are great as compliments or if you are a media composer where you need to work really fast!) because having the full Orchestra and all it's instruments will allow one to get familiar with orchestration and the user will have to do some work to get it sounding good as opposed to the ensembles where the developer has done all of the arranging hard work for you and which provide instant gratification. Just my 2 cents


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## Consona (Aug 20, 2018)

I'd happily pay for a monthly usage of some developer's libraries to get the sound I want. How greatly awesome would it be to have immediate access to any EWQL, Spitfire, 8dio, Soundiron and Orchestral Tools library for $25 a month!


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## Hanu_H (Aug 20, 2018)

This a great library for a beginner: https://sonuscore.com/shop/the-orchestra/

And VSL SE would be excellent as well.

-Hannes


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## Parsifal666 (Aug 20, 2018)

Consona said:


> I'd happily pay for a monthly usage of some developer's libraries to get the sound I want. How greatly awesome would it be to have immediate access to any EWQL, Spitfire, 8dio, Soundiron and Orchestral Tools library for $25 a month!



Happy to see someone on my side! I know that both myself and most of the composers I know would jump ALL OVER a subscription model for those other libraries. I'd give up 100 US a month for all, no problem.

That said, I fully respect those perfectly valid opinions against it (besides "oh dear guess I spent my money for nothing" argument. Heck, once CC came out and I realized I spent a bunch of money on the Hollywoods and Stormdrums I got a little angry...but that changed when I realized all the opportunities inherent in the subscription model).


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## dcoscina (Aug 20, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> Happy to see someone on my side! I know that both myself and most of the composers I know would jump ALL OVER a subscription model for those other libraries. I'd give up 100 US a month for all, no problem.
> 
> That said, I fully respect those perfectly valid opinions against it (besides "oh dear guess I spent my money for nothing" argument. Heck, once CC came out and I realized I spent a bunch of money on the Hollywoods and Stormdrums I got a little angry...but that changed when I realized all the opportunities inherent in the subscription model).


I agree. I’m working on a game score right now that requires a lot of world instruments. Since I don’t normally use a lot of those sounds it makes more sense for me to join CC for a couple months and have access to a lot of sounds for this project so I’m out $85 as opposed to several hundred dollars


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## Loïc D (Aug 20, 2018)

Given your influences & goal, I second the choice of EastWest (which I own) or VSL SE (which I don't own).

Albion ONE is not really tailored for classical mockups since it contains ensemble patch (which to me is acceptable for strings but very problematic for WW & Brass). It's also lacking classical percussions (timpani, cymbals & chromatic). Conversely it contains huge percussions (Darwin) & sound design pads & drones (Stevenson).
And Metropolis Ark I (which I don't own) seems even more oriented to trailers.

I'm also hobbyist and quite on the beginner side of things. But as I'm improving, I come back more & more to my good old EWQLSO Gold which has plenty of articulations & elements, and feel more & more limited by my ensemble libraries (Albion One & Berlin Inspire 1).


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## Quasar (Aug 20, 2018)

For a full orchestra on a budget, Garritan Personal Orchestra 5 gives one everything one needs to become educated in orchestral composition and writing "classical" music with a virtual orchestra.


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## Parsifal666 (Aug 20, 2018)

Quasar said:


> For a full orchestra on a budget, Garritan Personal Orchestra 5 gives one everything one needs to become educated in orchestral composition and writing "classical" music with a virtual orchestra.



GPO is what I started with, and I still use the Cello 3, Xylophone, Vibraphone, Harp, and Steinway patches. Mostly the Xy and Vib, which imo aren't bad at all, really. Just not particularly malleable.


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## chocobitz825 (Aug 20, 2018)

if you're looking for something more along the sketching orchestra route, may i also introduce Red Room Audio's Palette series.


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## dcoscina (Aug 20, 2018)

chocobitz825 said:


> if you're looking for something more along the sketching orchestra route, may i also introduce Red Room Audio's Palette series.


Palette series is terrific. I'm in the midst of reviewing it and the Brush expansions and I'm totally loving it. I don't know if I'd recommend it as a starting point for people wanting to compose classical styled music however. For media composers or people who already have a few libraries, it is an outstanding addition with a boat load of useful sounds. I have a plethora of orchestral libraries already but I really like the sound of Palette and its GUI is a breeze to get around. Anyhow there is a freebie of some of Palette out there and it's a great way to introduce one to the sound and ergonomics of this library.

For Morricone styled stuff, I'd still go the EW route however whether it's the Hollywood series (Silver is stupidly inexpensive but has a terrific sound) or else Symphonic Orchestra Gold or Platinum. 

This was composed in 2006 using only EWQLSO Gold Pro XP (yeah before the PLAY days)


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## bigcat1969 (Aug 20, 2018)

Wow what a lot of advice. Just a note if you are newish to the scene check out what ILok is and what it does to your computer and in general what dongles are as they are somewhat unique to this hobby. Not judging just saying look into it. Also remember with Composer Cloud you get nothing when you are done.

GPO, Miroslav, Complete Orchestra and the like are all low end and sound like it. The Orchestra isn't much better but is an auto Hans Zimmer composer so some love it, you don't want it for your needs. Spitfire and Berlin are generally the top, which is why Inspire might be a way to go. It is limited but the sound is high end. Listen to a lot of demos. Some folks can't seem to hear the difference between high quality and low quality. When I started I couldn't. If you want low end to start, look for 40 buck sales on Miro 2. It isn't great but better sounding than some other intro stuff and cheaper.

EW Orchestras are the best bang for the buck, but you get ILok and the Play Engine both of which are negatives to me. Look for sales, they love sales. Don't settle for less than 75% off!

Good luck and read this.

https://orchestralvst.wordpress.com/


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## jbuhler (Aug 20, 2018)

StatKsn said:


> Isn't 32GB RAM more than enough provided that one has a decent SSD? I don't really think you'll need to load up all the samples into the RAM. The only situation I could think of that 32GB RAM isn't enough is a huge solo sections library like Berlin Brass.


All the Berlin series except Inspire 1 (I didn't pick up 2) are hard to use with 32GB. Berlin Strings dies if I load more than one mic. I have to do the strings, freeze the tracks, and then move on. Even with the Arks I can't load the full range of articulations and more than two mics. OT libraries are the only ones that present this issue, and it's why I don't pull them out very often. Maybe when I upgrade to 64GB...


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## dcoscina (Aug 20, 2018)

jbuhler said:


> All the Berlin series except Inspire 1 (I didn't pick up 2) are hard to use with 32GB. Berlin Strings dies if I load more than one mic. I have to do the strings, freeze the tracks, and then move on. Even with the Arks I can't load the full range of articulations and more than two mics. OT libraries are the only ones that present this issue, and it's why I don't pull them out very often. Maybe when I upgrade to 64GB...


What system are you on? I've using all 3 ARKS and BOI 1 & 2 and Sphere in addition to other libraries on my lil' ol' Macbook Air i7 with only 8gb of RAM and with multiple mics engaged. Now I used them in LPX and since I upgraded to Sierra it's very much optimized for the OS and I've had up to 50 Kontakt instances loaded with OT, SF, CSS, PS stuff and didn't have to freeze anything..... Just curious...
sorry for divergence from the thread topic btw. PM me if you'd like.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Aug 20, 2018)

I'm going to be a contrarian here and suggest that you buy full Kontakt, which you can get on a crossgrade for $249, by downloading the free DrumMic'a! first. (need Google translate for the German). As money is an issue, wait until Black Friday for a sale and Kontakt may be half that, and whatever other libraries you want will also probably be 25% to 50% off. In the meantime get something inexpensive to start with or just spend a few months studying videos and demos and figure out what is right for you and how much you are willing to spend.

Kontakt comes with a ton of instruments out of the box, and as soon as you have it, you will have access to a wealth of high-quality free instruments. You could start by downloading the free Palette library.

If you start to frequent this forum you're going to hear people raving about instruments they got for free or for $10 or $20. No Kontakt and you're out of luck. If you do start Morricone-ing seriously, I assure you will be searching for virtual equivalents for the unusual instruments he uses. When you ask here for the best Dollars Western guitar or jaw harp or "The Mission" choir or whatever, you're likely to be getting suggestions for a lot of instruments you can't use without full Kontakt. (The only reason not to buy Kontakt is that it's a better deal to buy it as part of Komplete.)

In terms of a DAW, rather than getting a free one, I think you should look to the future, and pick the software that people use most for orchestral writing. For many of the people on this forum it is Cubase, but whatever you choose, you should start on a cheap version and then upgrade as you need to. It takes a lot of time to learn to use a DAW to its fullest.


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## jbuhler (Aug 20, 2018)

TigerTheFrog said:


> In terms of a DAW, rather than getting a free one, I think you should look to the future, and pick the software that people use most for orchestral writing. For many of the people on this forum it is Cubase, but whatever you choose, you should start on a cheap version and then upgrade as you need to. It takes a lot of time to learn to use a DAW to its fullest.



If you work on a Mac, Logic is truly a steal for what you get in terms of supplementary instruments and effects, and the sampled instruments that come with it are roughly on par with those in the Kontakt Factory Library.


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## dcoscina (Aug 20, 2018)

jbuhler said:


> If you work on a Mac, Logic is truly a steal for what you get in terms of supplementary instruments and effects, and the sampled instruments that come with it are roughly on par with those in the Kontakt Factory Library.


It's also incredibly optimized for CPU usage since Sierra. I've run fairly large track counts on my little Macbook Air and it's handled it like a champ.


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## MarcelM (Aug 20, 2018)

dcoscina said:


> It's also incredibly optimized for CPU usage since Sierra. I've run fairly large track counts on my little Macbook Air and it's handled it like a champ.



i fully agree. i own cubase, studio one and logic. but since i like osx (got a hackintosh) alot more i work with logic. it beats all the others in terms of performance. sadly i dont know logic very well and still have to learn quite a bit, but i guess its worth it.


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## dcoscina (Aug 20, 2018)

Heroix said:


> i fully agree. i own cubase, studio one and logic. but since i like osx (got a hackintosh) alot more i work with logic. it beats all the others in terms of performance. sadly i dont know logic very well and still have to learn quite a bit, but i guess its worth it.


I had stepped away from it for several years and just got back into it because it runs the smoothest on my systems. I will be stepping up to a 3.5 ghz 6,1 Mac Pro this month (my 3,1 finally bit the dust) so I'm expecting all my DAWs to work fairly nicely with that beast...


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## MarcelM (Aug 20, 2018)

dcoscina said:


> I had stepped away from it for several years and just got back into it because it runs the smoothest on my systems. I will be stepping up to a 3.5 ghz 6,1 Mac Pro this month (my 3,1 finally bit the dust) so I'm expecting all my DAWs to work fairly nicely with that beast...



not sure. i believe logic will still run a bit better. maybe not much, but still.

i also like the look and feel of it. i just wish apple would deliver a real disable track function and multiple CC lanes in piano roll. only things i really miss.

besides that, the content which comes with logic is the best out of all daws i think. same goes for the stock plugins.


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## Parsifal666 (Aug 20, 2018)

dcoscina said:


> What system are you on? I've using all 3 ARKS and BOI 1 & 2 and Sphere in addition to other libraries on my lil' ol' Macbook Air i7 with only 8gb of RAM and with multiple mics engaged. Now I used them in LPX and since I upgraded to Sierra it's very much optimized for the OS and I've had up to 50 Kontakt instances loaded with OT, SF, CSS, PS stuff and didn't have to freeze anything..... Just curious...
> sorry for divergence from the thread topic btw. PM me if you'd like.



WOW! Makes me think about converting from PC.


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## MorriconeFan (Aug 20, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> WOW! Makes me think about converting from PC.


i don't think that is physically possible, that machine is super underpowered


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## dpasdernick (Aug 20, 2018)

I haven't read the whole thread but Berlin inspire us a great starter library. Ark 1 is too heavy for a lot of classical music and doesn't cover the entire spectrum of the orchestra.


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## germancomponist (Aug 20, 2018)

MorriconeFan said:


> Hi guys.
> I read a lot of threads about both, but i can't decide.
> 
> I'm a big fan of Morricone, and other classical works like Tchaikovsky, etc.
> ...


I have not read all the posts here in this thread, but I would suggest you to buy Kontakt Sampler. The factory library is, in my opinion, a very good lib for a starter .... .


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## dcoscina (Aug 20, 2018)

MorriconeFan said:


> i don't think that is physically possible, that machine is super underpowered


Well I don’t know what to say but yeah i did use 50 tracks without freezing anything. I use legato sparingly which tends to take up a lot of memory and the track in question was an action track which used a lot of short articulations. The only instrument I had to freeze was Uhe Repro-5 because it drove my CPU nuts. But I’ve been using music tech since 1985 and have grown with it ever since so I know my stuff.


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## dcoscina (Aug 20, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> WOW! Makes me think about converting from PC.


I don’t tend to use templates and most of my work uses 25-40 tracks on average. I don’t put a lot of strain on my computers but that said I have ordered a 6 core MP since my older 3,1 kicked the bucket and I need something a little more robust for large projects. I have been pleasantly surprised at how well the MacBook Air has worked for composing however.


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## MorriconeFan (Aug 20, 2018)

dcoscina said:


> I don’t tend to use templates and most of my work uses 25-40 tracks on average. I don’t put a lot of strain on my computers but that said I have ordered a 6 core MP since my older 3,1 kicked the bucket and I need something a little more robust for large projects. I have been pleasantly surprised at how well the MacBook Air has worked for composing however.


So i'm getting that i could get away with 32gb of RAM if i install Mac OSX..

btw, what's a template?


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## MarcelM (Aug 20, 2018)

MorriconeFan said:


> So i'm getting that i could get away with 32gb of RAM if i install Mac OSX..
> 
> btw, what's a template?



you also get away with windows and 32gb ram.


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## SolarCell (Aug 20, 2018)

Thank you people, this was a very useful an inspiring2 thread! As a somewhat experienced pop songwriter/producer yet a beginner in orchestral music composing, and to see if orchestral music composing is for me, I was on the verge of buying first Albion I...
But it became clear that Albion I isn't the way to go for starters. So I watched the ''Inspire 2 videos on YT... I was amazed by the sound quality. Then went to their website to discover there's a 100 euro discount just ending the 20th of August... I literally had three minutes left... But I got it!


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## dcoscina (Aug 20, 2018)

MorriconeFan said:


> So i'm getting that i could get away with 32gb of RAM if i install Mac OSX..
> 
> btw, what's a template?


You can stick with Windows because 32gb is very good for Ram no matter which platform. Having your samples on SSD is key as well as ensuring the settings in your DAW are set to optimize your hardware


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## MorriconeFan (Aug 20, 2018)

dcoscina said:


> You can stick with Windows because 32gb is very good for Ram no matter which platform. Having your samples on SSD is key as well as ensuring the settings in your DAW are set to optimize your hardware


Is there a difference on SSDs or i could take the cheapest?


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## dcoscina (Aug 20, 2018)

MorriconeFan said:


> Is there a difference on SSDs or i could take the cheapest?


I find the Samsung line to be very reliable. I had a couple Crucial SDDs that just died one day so I’d stick with the Samsung. How many pci-e slots do you have available in your PC? That form of Ram is
Super fast.


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## Parsifal666 (Aug 20, 2018)

dcoscina said:


> I find the Samsung line to be very reliable. I had a couple Crucial SDDs that just died one day so I’d stick with the Samsung. How many pci-e slots do you have available in your PC? That form of Ram is
> Super fast.



Samsung is really good, but I just can't recommend the external hard drive SSDs. They are kind of fragile.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Aug 20, 2018)

m.2


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## ptram (Aug 20, 2018)

jbuhler said:


> Logic is truly a steal for what you get in terms of supplementary instruments and effects, and the sampled instruments that come with it are roughly on par with those in the Kontakt Factory Library.


While Logic is great for pop/techno sounds and for the effects, I find it severely missing on the classical orchestra front. I suspect an orchestral library would still be needed.

Paolo


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## jbuhler (Aug 20, 2018)

ptram said:


> While Logic is great for pop/techno sounds and for the effects, I find it severely missing on the classical orchestra front. I suspect an orchestral library would still be needed,
> 
> Paolo


I don't think anyone is arguing that the sample libraries in Logic would replace a dedicated orchestral library, only that the orchestral instruments in Logic are on par with those in the Kontakt Factory Library. Still either of those libraries is perfectly adequate for some uses.


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## ptram (Aug 21, 2018)

jbuhler said:


> ... the orchestral instruments in Logic are on par with those in the Kontakt Factory Library.


Kontakt comes with a reduced version of the VSL library, perfectly usable for classical pieces. I can't find something similar in the Logic's library. The supplied orchestral sounds are really on a different level.

Paolo


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## Hanu_H (Aug 21, 2018)

bigcat1969 said:


> GPO, Miroslav, Complete Orchestra and the like are all low end and sound like it. The Orchestra isn't much better but is an auto Hans Zimmer composer so some love it, you don't want it for your needs.


Have to disagree with that. The Ensemble Engine is one part of the library, but you also get invidual instruments with basic articulations. The quality is not on the level of Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, etc but the price isn't either.

This could also work for beginners: https://cinesamples.com/product/cinesymphony-lite

-Hannes


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## Satorious (Aug 21, 2018)

I have a Berlin Inspire 1 template which loads all of the instruments/articulations on separate tracks using 32gb memory and it works great. Also a factor is what DAW you use and whether you are running other programs or background tasks you don't need to.

I started on EWQLSO gold and this is a great starting point, can't comment on their newer subscription model (but I hate the idea of this as I sometimes tweak songs and instruments over time). Also like the suggestion of regular Kontakt which comes with a wealth of material. It's not the best sounding on the market - but bang for buck - great. It has enough content to make excellent mockups (with a little effort) and there are some real gems in the mix. You can also expand this over time and use non-player based Kontakt instruments, which will futureproof you. Berlin Inspire 1 is also great (sounds great out the box, but you will have less options).


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## StatKsn (Aug 21, 2018)

EWQLSO is still good (in terms of the timbre and baked-in performance) but I'm not sure if it is a suitable library for those new to orchestral samples. The structure of library is too different from today's streamlined standard (sustains, legatos, shorts, swells and various "standard" controls such as legato sample start offset) and there are too many character patches like "butter legato" -which is not a legato patch btw- "run simulator" etc. that you might not be able to intuitively tell what really it is about.


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## chocobitz825 (Aug 21, 2018)

i totally forgot about this library, but http://www.vir2.com/instruments/vione/ (VI.One) might be a good starter for someone who wants many different instruments, wants to get used to the various articulations common in instrument libraries, but doesn't want to spend a lot of money. This is not at all a high quality library but it comes with a lot of stuff to practice on before you decide on the quality libraries you want.


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## Daisser (Aug 21, 2018)

Another vote for EW composer cloud. Everything you'll need for a long time before it's a problem. 

I would spend your resources and time learning composition and orchestration before diving into spending lots of money on samples. 

In fact, and its painful but valuable, you should considering working on making two handed piano pieces (if you cant play draw the MIDI in) and melodies for review from a teacher or forums before going heavy into samples / orchestration. If you are an experienced piano / guitar player or a solid musician this maybe redundant. This will also let you know a lot about how this hobby will mature for you and how much you'll enjoy it (before spending tons of money)

I spent a lot of money before learning this very valuabe lesson.


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## MarcelM (Aug 21, 2018)

this pretty much sums it up!


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## Maronier (Aug 21, 2018)

Morricone fan? Don't buy a sound library.


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