# VSL solo strings sound equalizing / improovement



## TintoL (Sep 1, 2015)

Hi All,

I have been fighting with vsl solo strings to get them to sound with a more "richer" sound or less "ultra perfect dry string sound" (I hope this can be a plausible description). I find that if I just place the violin in the stage, it seems is not enough, that the sound is still not there. It sounds like if a violin that is in between muted and not (this without touching the sound other than adding reverb) 

What you add to the solo strings to get your sound? Do you add EQ? if so, do you find frequencies you don't like and remove or add more? Any other magic you guys do?

I find Equalizing is a world on it's own, it seems so simple in the UI of the tonebooster EQ, but, the task seems to be for a trained engineer.

Any how, I would appreciate your input.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Sep 2, 2015)

Hi TintoL
The dry violin sound often needs some treatment with an EQ, yes. But it is not always the same procedure. It depends a lot on the room and also whether you want to have the violin sound closer or farther away.
2 Examples:
http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/VSL_New_VI/BWV1041_Excerpt_Mix_2014_16Bit.mp3, close, shiny
or here:
 a much larger "situation" (at 2:55...3:20)

As a common action I would do all the routings and the panning first. After these tasks you can start with the EQ.
1. Always cut the frequencies below ~200Hz (Low Cut for the violin). 
2. As a second task you could do some sound design and choose a "bell-filter" +10...12dB Q= 2...3. Scan the frequency range until you find "the one sound" you really don't like with the violin in this certain case. Inverse the gain from +12 to around -3dB as a starting point. 
Even if the sound of the VSL violin is more or less neutral we can have such nasty frequencies in connection with the chosen room venue because they often contain "typical sounds".
3. Now you could do the same procedure with a much more higher Q (>10). Scan the frequency range again for finding the most ringing frequency between 2kHz and 8kHz. If you can find such a bad ringing sound turn the gain to -4 ... -6dB. But see also below a "1."
4. As a last task you could choose a high shelf filter with a low Q (<1) and reduce the frequencies above 8 - 10 kHz a bit so that you have around -3dB at 20kHz. With this step you can turn the sound of the violin a bit more to "warm". 

In connection with EQs always keep in mind...

- that bad (cheap) EQs can be the reason for a ringing sound themselves.
- that overtones of the melody not are "bad" frequencies.
- that often less EQ is more.
- that we often keep (all) the instruments too "clear"...
- try to use EQs more for reducing frequencies than for enhancing them

And a last remark
If you are using MIR I would use the offered presets...

Best
Beat


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## TintoL (Sep 2, 2015)

Hi Beat,

Thanks so much for taking the time to write such a detailed response. I had the idea that it would be good if someone like you could answer the email, because I have all your tutorial. And they help me so much.

I am going to try what you are saying. I think there are things that I am doing wrong.

One thing that I've found I am struggling with is that my ears get muddy or lost after trying to match the vsl violin to a real violin on a audio track. Eventually I am not sure if I am getting closer or farther. I guess that comes with time. I mean how to know exactly which frequencies are blocking to reach the sound you want and which to manipulate.

Thanks again


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## Beat Kaufmann (Sep 4, 2015)

TintoL said:


> Hi Beat,
> 
> ...One thing that I've found I am struggling with is that my ears get muddy or lost after trying to match the vsl violin to a real violin on a audio track. Eventually I am not sure if I am getting closer or farther. I guess that comes with time. I mean how to know exactly which frequencies are blocking to reach the sound you want and which to manipulate.



Hello again
When I listen to user demos in the VSL-forum I can make out that most "mixers" overdo the EQ-jobs. Often it would be better they would do nothing, because VSL instruments are very well recorded. 

So you always could start your mixes just with doing Low Cuts (1. see above) for each instrument and then cut the high frequencies with a High Shelf filter so far it is necessary (4.). Most of the mixes would be much more natural in the end - probably also yours.

If you like to do "sounddesign" you should have a reference sound for comparing yours with it. Of course good studio monitors would be great as well. Keep in mind that our ears can't "store" a sound for a long time and that they also get tired soon. 
So all those EQ tasks should happen with a certain "speed" - within a short time. 
Switching between the reference and your sound as often as possible is important I already mentioned it. 

So why not looking for nice references: A string-orchestra, a solo violin, a choir, brass instruments... which all sound to your taste.
Import those referneces into the mixer beside your violin...

All the best
Beat


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## TintoL (Sep 5, 2015)

Thanks so much again Beat,

This last post is probably the best inside I have had about how to compare sounds when adjusting eq. It is true that I feel I can not compare the sound of my reference violin recording because is like having very short memory. 

The one thing I am going to start doing is importing my reference to cubase and start from there.

All the best


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## KEnK (Sep 7, 2015)

Nice vid Beat!

I've read your tuts (and others) about ERs and Tail.
I've been working w/ the idea of the 3 tiered sound stage for a while now,
but I'm getting mixed results.

2 questions for you:
The vid above looks like it has a 7 part sound stage.
Did you use more than 3 ERs to get this, or just use more/less to get the effect?

Also- I've still not decided on which software I like-
and if I should use the same ERs but change the pre-delay for front, middle, & rear?
I do get good spacial differentiation by using different reverbs.

Thanks

k


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## Beat Kaufmann (Sep 8, 2015)

KEnK said:


> 2 questions for you:
> The vid above looks like it has a 7 part sound stage.
> Did you use more than 3 ERs to get this, or just use more/less to get the effect?



Hi K
4 different depths: Strings / Woodwinds / Brass / Percussion+Choir
1 no depth, just tail for the band




KEnK said:


> Also- I've still not decided on which software I like-
> and if I should use the same ERs but change the pre-delay for front, middle, & rear?
> I do get good spacial differentiation by using different reverbs.
> k



If you are interested in the topic, read also this thread, please.
For having a useful Impulse Response which makes you able to have nice and different distances you should search for an IR which offers a "deep depth". It is easy to prove this fact: Just set 100% wet within your convolution reverb and play an instrument. Take those IRs which let the instrument appear far away. Then shorten the IRs so that you only have the first 300-400ms of the selected impulses. With this part of an IR (the Early Reflections) and an additional tail you can achive any distance you like... only by different DRY/WET-ratios. Listen once more to the Marimba within the link above... BTW: Changing the predelay is not a 100% way for having different distances.

Best
Beat


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## muk (Sep 8, 2015)

VSL violins tend to have a very specific sound out of the box. They often contain more high frequency energy than we are accustomed to because they are recorded close in a room with little reflections. Eventhough I do have the Solo Strings I haven't yet experimented with them much, but I've invested a lot of time in making the Dimension Strings sounding lusher, luxuriant, and silky.
Because of the close recording and the subdued room information you want to push the instruments back a little, and place them in a room. As Beat wrote, Early reflections are important for this process. Before you start eqing your violin, you should check how it sounds when it is placed in the room. When sound travels through air, the first thing that is absorbed are high frequencies. Because it was recorded close, this didn't happen on the recorded samples. So you have to take care of that. Either eq some of the high frequency content manually, or use a program that can do that. VSS2 (this will also allow you to place the instrument in a room) comes to mind. Or Tokyo Dawn Proximity. That one is free, and it lets you push back the source in space. It takes care of the high frequency absorption for you.
Only after you took care of this you should start to eq your violin. I wouldn't advise to cut the lows. Have a look here:



VSL's recording are all highest class and there usually is really no need to cut any rumble away, because there isn't any.
If you aren't intimately familiar with mixing, you can use one of the many tools that let you place an instrument in a room visually. It's easier to start with. Magix Origami (my personal secret sauce plugin!), VirtualSoundstage2, Mirx, Vienna Mir, Ircam Spat are tools that can do that.

After having placed the violin in a room you can sculpt the sound a bit with EQ. Beat's method is good here. Keep in mind that you should do as little as possible and it is easy to deteriorate the sound. Be careful, only apply changes where you are sure why you are doing them. And keep in mind that you can not add what isn't there in the recording in the first place.
Another good method is to find a recording with a sound you like. Find a solo violin where you really like the tone. Take a small excerpt of this and mock it up with your VSL solo violin. Then compare the frequency spectrum of the recording to your mockup. There are matching eqs that can help you with the process (Izotope Ozone has one, Voxengo as well, and there are certainly many others).


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## TintoL (Sep 8, 2015)

Hi Muk,

Thanks so much for your detail reply. And thanks for posting that video.
It really open my mind about all this. One thing that I noticed when playing with the eq is that I didn't listened to any rumbling in the low end and actually felt that if I cut the low end it felt like losing the punch of the bow in the violin. So I took a bit of it, but, now I feel like I should cut nothing in the low end. 

I also have to accept that I was doing all this the wrong way. I was eqing without placing the violin in the room first. I also forgot about just matching the frequency spectrum. I have the voxengo, the one that comes with cubase 8 pro. I will try to do everything you are saying here. I have the feeling that it will work fine.

Once I get some example done, I will post it here just to see what is your opinion guys, and learn from it.

I really appreciate that you guys took the time to explain it to me. MUCH APPRECIATED.

Agustin


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## muk (Sep 8, 2015)

Hey Agustin, glad to be of help. An example of what you have done would be great. That way maybe we can offer some pinpoint tips.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 8, 2015)

I am going to issue my standard warning:

If you don't _really_ know what you are doing you can _easily_ do more harm than good with EQ. I hear lots of pieces done with the Hollywood Orchestra that to my ears the sound of HO was ruined by people getting cutsey with the EQ.


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## TintoL (Sep 8, 2015)

Thanks Muk, that figures. I definitely think that putting some audio will be better for asking advice.

Hi EeastWest Lurker, Thanks for your advice. I am for sure a beginer in mixing, eq and mastering. Still reading and testing and mostly educating my ear. Is such a hard thing.
And I for sure touched the violin so badly that destroyed what ever was there, I am one of those....But I learn by screwing things so I know the comparison. I just removed everything and starting from a fresh start.
I don't have much time in my hands, I hope I can get something done.

Agustin


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## KEnK (Sep 8, 2015)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> shorten the IRs so that you only have the first 300-400ms of the selected impulses


Thanks for the tip Beat.
I never thought of shortening an IR to the point of it becoming and ER.
I'll definitely try that.
I think I did see that thread back when it was new, but I missed what you said there
about not using the entire IR.


Beat Kaufmann said:


> It is not necessary to use the whole IR (incl. the tail). Most time it is enough only to use the first ms (0 - 100ms or 0 - 300ms) for getting the depth


I do usually tailor my IRs but never that much.

Thanks!

k


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