# _UNDERSCORE_ Important Announcement!!



## MacQ (May 12, 2013)

*JUNE 10, 2013*

Important announcement regarding _UNDERSCORE_ pricing:

https://vimeo.com/68029658



MAY 2013:

_UNDERSCORE_ will be released on May 31st, and if you write music for picture, you are going to be amazed. This is far more than just a typical "scoring" library -- it's a music-for-picture workstation that sets a new standard in workflow speed and flexibility.

Built to take your musical ideas from "noodling at the keyboard" to fully produced arrangements in record time, it does the production grunt work for you, letting you focus on the music and not on the mix. And it works all of its magic in real-time, so you're free to improvise and tweak anything and everything to adapt to whatever context you require.

Over the coming weeks we will be releasing comprehensive walk-through videos that explore the truly astonishing power of the FluidPhrase Engine and Phrase Envelopes to deliver dynamic and inspiring productions that adhere to YOUR musical aesthetic and harmonic choices.

Prepare yourselves for _UNDERSCORE_.

https://vimeo.com/66044340

I've done the first several audio nuggets that demonstrate what Underscore can do. Have a listen: https://soundcloud.com/studioweapon/audio-nugget-01

The first of several videos explaining the design and use of _UNDERSCORE_ is now available. It contains a personal introduction (hello, world!) followed by an interface tour. More to come in the next 9 days!!

https://vimeo.com/66835442

For those interested in the sound of the presets (which are ALL fully editable), I've put together a demonstration which walks through some of the sounds in _UNDERSCORE_. This video does NOT contain technical or usage information, and is purely a sound demonstration. 

Preset sounds demo: https://vimeo.com/66871961

I've uploaded a patch-creation walk-through for those interested in seeing _UNDERSCORE_ in action: https://vimeo.com/66948599

I'm proud to release the comprehensive feature walk-through for the FluidPhrase Engine sequencer. It's a little over 20 minutes long, and should give you a very good sense of how the FluidPhrase Engine works to help you generate new musical ideas. 

https://vimeo.com/67541279

Also, check out the StudioWeapon webpage at www.studioweapon.com . It includes some more information about _UNDERSCORE_ and contains links to the previously release videos.

*!!!UPDATE - June 5th!!!*

A quick live video with one of the "Fast Food Orchestra" patches in _UNDERSCORE_:

_UNDERSCORE_ Video Blog Episode 01: https://vimeo.com/67705930
_UNDERSCORE_ Video Blog Episode 02: https://vimeo.com/67786294
_UNDERSCORE_ Video Blog Episode 03: https://vimeo.com/67786295
_UNDERSCORE_ Video Blog Episode 04: https://vimeo.com/67786296

Cheers!


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## Justin Miller (May 13, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*

demo sounds amazing.. can't wait to see this


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## Luca Capozzi (May 13, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*

wow  This seems really cool. 

Thumbs up!
Luca


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## oxo (May 13, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*

is the female solo voice also part of the library?


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## MrCambiata (May 13, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*

Looks very interesting. Would like to read more infos..


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## TuomasP (May 13, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*

Awesome, would like to know in which price range this settles :D


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## Sid Francis (May 13, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*

I´ll take it for the voice alone, if it´s included. If not, please tell the origin. No, to be just: the rest also sounds really really good and helpful.


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## MacQ (May 13, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*



oxo @ Mon May 13 said:


> is the female solo voice also part of the library?



Sadly no ... that is the ONLY element of the music that is NOT from Underscore. It is from a forthcoming product which is still in development. I chose a vocal melody that would sit on top so that it would be clear which part was which. The "naked" version of this sound identical, except for that top solo vocal (and its harmony in the final section).


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## MacQ (May 13, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*



MrCambiata @ Mon May 13 said:


> Looks very interesting. Would like to read more infos..



Videos are on the way which explain what Underscore actually is and what it can do. Rest assured that no amount of hype is too much hype. I designed it to be my personal workstation for my scoring needs, and it's everything I'd hoped it could be. 

Is there anything specific you'd like to know before the videos are released? I'm happy to answer any questions as I LOVE talking about this product.


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## MacQ (May 13, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*



Sid Francis @ Mon May 13 said:


> I´ll take it for the voice alone, if it´s included. If not, please tell the origin. No, to be just: the rest also sounds really really good and helpful.



Thanks for your kind words. I have an extensive background in choral music and so I'm very particular when it comes to vocals. The solo voice is something I cooked up as part of my experimentation for a product that is in development. I just couldn't resist putting it on this demo, as it was precisely the right aesthetic choice for what I wanted to achieve.

The voice itself I created using a *single sample* using a custom technique I devised. I'm thrilled that you commented on it, as it's only getting better from here!


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## oxo (May 13, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*

thanks for your answer.


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## MacQ (May 13, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*



TuomasP @ Mon May 13 said:


> Awesome, would like to know in which price range this settles :D



Underscore will be priced around $1000 US, with final pricing to be announced at release. Let me assure you that the price reflects the scope and flexibility this product offers to scoring composers. It is a niche product designed for a specific purpose, and it's unbelievably good at what it does.

The exceptional utility and functionality will be evident in the walk-through videos. For those who balk at this price -- just wait. Seeing it in action will convince you of its worth.

Working with Underscore has changed the way that I write, and opened up creative avenues that I didn't know were there. As an "ideas-generator" it's unmatched. Aside from being a powerful tool, it's just plain FUN to play!


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## VSTBuzz (May 13, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*



MacQ @ Mon May 13 said:


> TuomasP @ Mon May 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Awesome, would like to know in which price range this settles :D
> ...



Holey moley! Thats pretty expensive - I'm interested to see what features it has for that.


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## MarkS_Comp (May 13, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*



VSTBuzz @ Mon May 13 said:


> MacQ @ Mon May 13 said:
> 
> 
> > TuomasP @ Mon May 13 said:
> ...



That is pretty expensive, but it could very well be worth it.

Walkthrough video, please!


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## shakuman (May 13, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*

1000$ >8o ..LUMINA, forgive me!


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## Sid Francis (May 13, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*

*using a single sample*_


:shock: :shock: :shock: 


*1000$ *_

:shock: :shock: :shock: :cry:


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## Guy Rowland (May 13, 2013)

$1k for Kontakt-based synth sounds... well, it's ballsy. It's going to have to be one helluva walkthrough video.


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## MacQ (May 13, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Mon May 13 said:


> $1k for Kontakt-based synth sounds... well, it's ballsy. It's going to have to be one helluva walkthrough video.



It's way more than just sounds -- it's a rhythmic workstation. And not one you have to spend time fiddling with. It's load-and-go simplicity at its best. The emphasis here is FAST and COOL. Production is so important these days, and loops have been filling the void up to this point. But I hate loops because they limit me harmonically, temporally ... well, they just limit me. Underscore lets me write the music I want ... improvise at the keyboard in ONE pass, and have a working cue that sits perfectly under dialogue, but has enough character to meet a modern production standard. Drop in one of your favourite pianos, hire a string player for your melody and you're there. In so little time it's almost unfair.

Ballsy? Maybe, but I'm confident you'll be impressed with the results. It's surely not for everyone, and probably not right for every context, but the videos will demonstrate the kind of work it's intended to do. 

Plus it's a hoot to play. It's all smiles over here!


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## Ed (May 13, 2013)

$1000?

Sounds nice, but price is absolutely ridiculous, it would have to be extraordinary.


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## MacQ (May 13, 2013)

Ed @ Mon May 13 said:


> $1000?
> 
> Sounds nice, but price is absolutely ridiculous, it would have to be the extraordinary.



Challenge ... ACCEPTED. :D


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## mark812 (May 13, 2013)

Ed @ Mon May 13 said:


> $1000?
> 
> Sounds nice, but price is absolutely ridiculous, it would have to be the extraordinary.



+1

It should be 2 times better than Omnisphere in terms of content, quality and versatility according to price.


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## Kejero (May 13, 2013)

Wait... Is this that one-button-to-generate-a-score software those academics have been complaining about all those years?


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## TheUnfinished (May 13, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*

Points awarded for bravery!


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## Peter Alexander (May 13, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*

In fairness to Stu and his team, let's not pass judgment on price until we learn more and see more demos. 

That said, please don't use sounds that are not part of Underscore as this does create the impression that the vocals are included. At least, that was my immediate impression.


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## woodsdenis (May 13, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*

On this demo however the voice is the standout item, the rest of it was not different or revolutionary enough to justify the price. I would think you would play your best hand at launch, look forward to seeing how this develops.


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## MacQ (May 13, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*



Peter Alexander @ Mon May 13 said:


> In fairness to Stu and his team, let's not pass judgment on price until we learn more and see more demos.
> 
> That said, please don't use sounds that are not part of Underscore as this does create the impression that the vocals are included. At least, that was my immediate impression.



That's totally fair, Peter. My intention was never to mislead; it needed a soaring melody to have any emotion at all, and I figured a solo voice would be appropriate in the context because it fulfills that requirement and is also easy to hear around. That said, I'll admit I've been vague about details thus far ... but all will be illuminated very soon!


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## EforEclectic (May 13, 2013)

$1K is a tall order for this type of library. 

Twice as good as omnisphere. 

Prove me wrong. Blow our minds.


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## Craig Sharmat (May 13, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*

Symphobia is at this price point, if it is extensive then it seems like it could be worth it.


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## germancomponist (May 13, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*

We all have to wait..... .

Maybe it's kind of like the auto accompaniment on keyboards?


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## Teal Seal (May 13, 2013)

EforEclectic @ Mon May 13 said:


> $1K is a tall order for this type of library.
> 
> Twice as good as omnisphere.
> 
> Prove me wrong. Blow our minds.


Omnisphere isn't a fair comparison for this or any independent Kontakt library. Because of their high volume of sales, Spectrasonics can offer a ton of material for a very low price.

In other words, if people based their decisions for whether or not to buy a library based on whether it's as good a deal compared to Omnisphere . . . then no one would ever buy any other libraries. :D


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## 667 (May 13, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*

LASS is $1k also. More if you want the sordinos. 

I'll reserve judgement till I see the workflow stuff which honestly is potentially more interesting than the sounds...


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## Guy Rowland (May 13, 2013)

Teal Seal @ Tue May 14 said:


> Omnisphere isn't a fair comparison for this or any independent Kontakt library. Because of their high volume of sales, Spectrasonics can offer a ton of material for a very low price.



Eeek... that's an argument that concerns me. It's a little like an independent filmmaker saying "I don't have the resources or distribution of Warner Bros, so I'm charging you double to see my film".

Clearly the auto-arrangement is the selling point here. With the Symphobia range, it has two main selling points - a killer sound, and a time saver, and this combination (to some) will justify the price. Thing is... I know what an orchestra sounds like, Symphbia is a shortcut to emulating a great-sounding orchestra or its constituent elements. It's a clearly defined goal with an achievable outcome (acknowledging of course that there will be limitations and compromises, but if executed well enough will be of use). Where perhaps I'm struggling here is that UNDERSCORE has to be a product that sounds like electronic music, which is no one thing - synths and electronic percussion are infinitely diverse. Unlike an orchestra whose raw elements are similar yet can produce a huge variety in tone and effect, here the raw elements themselves are wildly disparate. On the basis of the teaser, I came away thinking "sounds ok but unremarkable sonically, but the real point is I've never had to do a score that sounded anything like that in my life". I guess I need to hear a context where I'd say "yup, that's what I need to achieve, and this product will help me get there faster".

IMO this wasn't a great teaser because we don't get a clue about this product's USP - the auto-arranging. I do look forward to the walkthrough with interest, but I fear you've set up a mountain to climb now...


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## Greg (May 13, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*

Video had me intrigued, price instantly scared me away. Just being honest! Best of luck with it.


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## Peter Alexander (May 13, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*



MacQ @ Mon May 13 said:


> Peter Alexander @ Mon May 13 said:
> 
> 
> > In fairness to Stu and his team, let's not pass judgment on price until we learn more and see more demos.
> ...



Please understand the source of my comments. I know how long it takes to create great stuff. I just don't want to see you face unnecessary criticism before you even get to the starting gate!

Do well!


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## Peter Alexander (May 13, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*



> USP...


USP (for those who don't know this acronym), means Unique Selling Proposition. It was coined originally by advertising legend Rosser Reeves, David Ogilvy's brother-in-law (of Ogilvy & Mather). If you can find it, his _Reality In Advertising_ is a classic and still has many truths with direct application to music marketing, even today.


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## doctornine (May 14, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*

Well I saw the $1000 post yesterday.

Like many others I take the opinion, of how much other software and libs I could get for that sort of money and I'm afraid I'd be measuring it against that factor.

For that kind of money I'd be expecting to see/hear the wheel be re-invented, so I await some more details with interest, if not an itchy buy-it-now finger.

:wink:


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## freddiehangoler (May 14, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*

Sounds very interesting. I believe I'll have more questions once I'll see the walk-through, since I have no idea towards what I should refer my assumptions...

Good luck with the vid, 

P.S, 

that vocal is awesome


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## mk282 (May 14, 2013)

It definitely needs to be twice better than Omnisphere to justify that price, IMHO. Being purposedly vague with the first trailer video and then dropping the $1k price is definitely not helping the hype either.


I don't think it will sell well at all, at that price. And I don't see anything special in it that justifies $1000 markup at all. Shooting yourself in the foot, perhaps?


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## organix (May 14, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*

The demo sounds cool with that solo voice that isn't part of the product.
Without the voice it sounds ok, but nothing really special.

Maybe the power comes with the design and the possibilities of the product. At the moment I'm not really sure what's all about. 

From the kind of sound and that gui shots, it seems a little bit something like the AEON collection. Maybe I'm wrong and _Underscore_ isn't comparable with instruments like AEON.

I think we have to wait for some more demos, videos and information about _Underscore_. For $1000 the expectations are very high. 

Markus


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## lpuser (May 14, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*



organix @ Tue May 14 said:


> The demo sounds cool with that solo voice that isn't part of the product.
> Without the voice it sounds ok, but nothing really special.



Having used the free version, I certainly think the product is great. But the statement above is exactly the reason why I dislike such demos.

Without asking, there is no way for anyone to understand which sounds are included in the product. Numerous times, I have purchased a sample library based on demos which did prominently feature other (non-disclosed) products and I was pretty much disappointed with what I got. Even worse, due to the copy protection, EULAs etc. there is hardly a way to exchange such a mis-purchase :-(

Having read through all the threads about piracy etc. the one thing that popped into my mind was: Please developers, give us demos (or single-sound-demos) which do really feature the sound of your products and not "dressed" audio which sounds nice - but is only partially what we should pay for.

Other than that - I think _Underscore_ will be a clear winner!

Cheers
Tom


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## woodsdenis (May 14, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*

Comparisons to Omnisphere are perfectly legitimate in this case. It has far more in common structurally with Omnisphere than Symphobia or Lass. Their USP is being able to create an realistic orchestral sound for a fraction of the cost of the real thing and with the control of midi.

Underscore will need to deliver big time to top Omnisphere sonically. Lets not forget there is nearly 50gb of sample content with Omnisphere with a proprietary engine ,fx arp,env modulation and all the other stuff. The modulation routings in Omni are vast.

Underscore uses a Kontakt engine, no matter how brilliant you are at scripting you are still stuck with this and all that entails. Certainly works well for acoustic emulations with round robins and keyswitches etc no question, I have yet to hear a Kontakt based synth better Massive, Alchemy, Omnisphere etc. Kontakt simply cant do every thing.

Now if Underscores USP is a new and innovative auto arrange function, than I look forward to seeing it, for 1k it would need to be exceptional.


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## MarkS_Comp (May 14, 2013)

mk282 @ Tue May 14 said:


> I don't think it will sell well at all, at that price. And I don't see anything special in it that justifies $1000 markup at all. Shooting yourself in the foot, perhaps?



How the hell do you say that before you even know what it is? 

Guys - it was said on p1 - reserve judgement for when we know more.... jeez.


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## mk282 (May 14, 2013)

MarkS_Comp @ 14.5.2013 said:


> mk282 @ Tue May 14 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think it will sell well at all, at that price. And I don't see anything special in it that justifies $1000 markup at all. Shooting yourself in the foot, perhaps?
> ...



Simple. I just don't think whatever it is it doesn't justify the price tag, IMHO - especially when compared with a synth powerhouse that Omnisphere is. Same goes for Lumina - neat sounding stuff, but definitely not worth the price PS wants for it.

And when you read stuff like this it makes it all the more apparent that this is a one-shot opportunity for a new dev to try and cash in on this one product then bail out to a different platform.


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## woodsdenis (May 14, 2013)

mk282 @ Tue May 14 said:


> MarkS_Comp @ 14.5.2013 said:
> 
> 
> > mk282 @ Tue May 14 said:
> ...




OMG Good catch, try and explain that one away. This is the post below from the developer of "Underscore" in Dec 2012 in this very forum, just in case it gets deleted.



"I'll be supporting Machfive. I'm only releasing on Kontakt 5 since my library is over a year in development and the scripting would take too long to port. I'll release one Kontakt 5 library, and then I'm done. There are significant limitations in Kontakt which go unheeded by the development team in Berlin, and I think their laissez-faire attitude to feature requests and bug reports is unprofessional and downright frustrating. 

Also, the built-in FX are terrible, and there's no excuse for that these days, especially not when Guitar Rig exists in their catalogue. 

Kontakt rose to dominate on the back of KSP scripting, and the LUA scripting in Machfive 3 finally competes with -- and even exceeds in some cases -- the complexity possible in Kontakt. 

And did I mention the FX suck? Haha."


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## quantum7 (May 14, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*

Just when I thought the sample lib $ trend was in our wallet's favor, Lumina and Underscore got to MESS is all up!  I will also wait to pass judgement until more information comes out, but I hope it is waaaay better than Lumina....which is over-priced IMO. With so many incredible libs out there for low prices, hopefully Underscore will not Underwhelm.


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## Kejero (May 14, 2013)

Haha, two pages of discussion on a product that nobody even has a clue what it even is...

I guess they're doing something right


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## organix (May 14, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*

We can't say that Underscore isn't worth the price. First, we do not know much about the product and secondly, the worth is a more personal assessment.

If you're a rich composer you maybe think this price is ok and could be higher. As higher the price as more exclusive the instrument will be. 


Comparing is another thing. I don't think that Underscore can be compared with Omnisphere. The sound is often only one side of the medaille. There are many other aspects to consider. 
Sometimes an ease and intuitive usage is more worth as gigabytes on data or quality of single fx.

Omnisphere is a sound powerhorse but not as using it only as a simple preset machine. To get deeper into Omnisphere you have to study his concepts behind and this isn't a really easy task for everyone.

Maybe Underscore brings us a simpler and more intuitive way to make a great sound.

We've to wait for more details.  

Markus


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## woodsdenis (May 14, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*

Guys read mk282 post above and click link. The developer doesn't have anything good to say about Kontakt its scrpting or its fx. Yet is promoting a $1000 dollar new /innovative library using it. 

"And did I mention the FX suck? Haha." is a quote from the developers own post. WTF

Cmon this deserves to be called out no matter if we havn't seen more of this product surely.


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## 667 (May 14, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*

But the FX in Kontakt are really bad.


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## Teal Seal (May 14, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Mon May 13 said:


> Teal Seal @ Tue May 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Omnisphere isn't a fair comparison for this or any independent Kontakt library. Because of their high volume of sales, Spectrasonics can offer a ton of material for a very low price.
> ...


I should have explained myself better. 

If you _don't_ already own Omnisphere, then all the stuff I mentioned in my first post is irrelevant. You simply want the best sound, playability and value, and Omnisphere is a no brainer.

But what I meant was that once you already own Omnisphere, then you can't expect that all other libraries will offer the same value. Because they won't.

So you have to decide whether or not to buy a library based on whether it adds enough new stuff to your arsenal to justify the price. (By "justify the price" I don't mean that it fits some value model compared to other libraries. Rather I mean whether it earns its keep in the day to day chores of composing.)

In other words, if _Underscore_ saves me $1,000 worth of time doing whatever it is that it does (that Omnisphere doesn't already do,) then it's worth it. If not, then it's not worth it.


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## woodsdenis (May 14, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*



667 @ Tue May 14 said:


> But the FX in Kontakt are really bad.



They may be, but then maybe for transparency in your promo vid when you describe your libraries FX as "Powerful" you should put an * after it and add at the bottom of the page, BTW I really think they suck but pay the grand anyway, my product is brilliant despite all the other flaws and bugs I think that Kontakt has. :D


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## MacQ (May 14, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*



woodsdenis @ Tue May 14 said:


> Guys read mk282 post above and click link. The developer doesn't have anything good to say about Kontakt its scrpting or its fx. Yet is promoting a $1000 dollar new /innovative library using it.
> 
> "And did I mention the FX suck? Haha." is a quote from the developers own post. WTF
> 
> Cmon this deserves to be called out no matter if we havn't seen more of this product surely.


'

Call me out all you like! The FX really do suck, and I'm not the only one who thinks so. The amp sims, filters, and convolution are actually really great but it's the DELAY (oh, the delay) that is so woefully under-developed. Not true stereo ... and not even summing the input to mono ... only the LEFT channel gets fed to the delay.

Am I limited by Kontakt? Sure ... anyone who chooses Kontakt has to make trade-offs with regards to features/stability/robustness. Ultimately though I've been investigating Machfive 3 further since that December thread, and it does have quite a way to go to really compete (especially on the Windows end). And Underscore is running VERY nicely on Kontakt 5, even if I sometimes use an external delay. (As really everyone should, in my opinion.)

I'm a long-time forum member, and if you have any other comments from the past you'd like me to address, I'd be happy to. I have nothing to hide -- far from it in fact. I'll happily step on someone else's toes and slam their product if I think it's a rip-off, so please fire away if the videos underwhelm you. :wink: 

I'm proud of what Underscore is and does. It's easy to proselytize when it's this much fun. :D

Oh, and please call me Stu. "The Developer" is a little impersonal around here.


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## Ed (May 14, 2013)

Teal Seal @ Tue May 14 said:


> But what I meant was that once you already own Omnisphere, then you can't expect that all other libraries will offer the same value. Because they won't.



I've never seen any lib thats as expensive as this one with this kind of content. 

Symphobia costs what it does, but its very expensive to record all that orchestral content, this need not cost this much. Dan's Alpha is doing very well and is priced even cheaper than big developers that have similar products. As I said either its seriously amazing or its an absurd price. Now we find out the vocal isnt even part of it.... Stu seems like a nice guy but honestly with dat price it better be astonishing. In any case, it will be o[])

I have lots of stuff for this kind of synth underscore, so it needs to really show me something ground breaking, and although it sounds nice Im not sure Im hearing anything too special. Im really trying, and maybe thats the trick, you're trying harder than normal so you can make the high price tag make sense.


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## Echoes in the Attic (May 14, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*

I really don't understand how anyone is commenting on price without having any idea of the content at all. Did I miss something? I thought there were just a few screenshots in a single vid of a few tabs of a single patch...

As for the effects in Kontakt. Some of the old ones suck. But they've added so many of their best effects it's absurd to say there aren't good effects in Kontakt. They've got good filters now, good amp sims, convolution, plenty of the bread and butter effects are good.

A great test of the Kontakt effects is to put the same patches in Kontakt format against other formats such as Ableton packs where they try to match the effects in aBleton native devices. Things like Soniccouture, puremagnetik etc. who make Kontakt and Ableton versions. You will find that the Kontakt versions always sound far far better, largely due to FX.

It's true that Kontakt's delay issue of taking just the one channel is the most ridiculous thing ever though.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (May 14, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Video reveal!!*



Echoes in the Attic @ Tue May 14 said:


> I really don't understand how anyone is commenting on price without having any idea of the content at all. Did I miss something? I thought there were just a few screenshots in a single vid of a few tabs of a single patch...



+1.


----------



## woodsdenis (May 14, 2013)

MacQ @ Tue May 14 said:


> woodsdenis @ Tue May 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Guys read mk282 post above and click link. The developer doesn't have anything good to say about Kontakt its scrpting or its fx. Yet is promoting a $1000 dollar new /innovative library using it.
> ...




Fair enough Stu, you previously said in the linked post that the FX sucked in Kontakt, any reasonable interpretation of that would mean all/ or most of them NOT just only the delay, which now seems to be the only one you have issue with. A slight change of emphasis I think. 

I too call it as see it. I find a post by you claiming the FX suck on one hand and then describing the same ones as "Powerfull" in your video as disingenuous. 

I sincerely hope this does well for you and have great success.


----------



## Ed (May 14, 2013)

Speaking about Kontakt FX, does anyone know why if you turn up stereo widener to the max it pans to the left?


----------



## mk282 (May 14, 2013)

Ed @ 14.5.2013 said:


> Speaking about Kontakt FX, does anyone know why if you turn up stereo widener to the max it pans to the left?



It doesn't do that here. :/


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## MacQ (May 14, 2013)

woodsdenis @ Tue May 14 said:


> I too call it as see it. I find a post by you claiming the FX suck on one hand and then describing the same ones as "Powerfull" in your video as disingenuous.



Fair point ... I just found that "The Same FX Everyone Else Has to Live With" didn't really fit in the width I'd allotted myself. I stand by it, though, in terms of what's possible tonally when you have enough of them chained in series! =o 

I appreciate your support and any feedback you have, good or bad. Sonic-aesthetic taste is wildly subjective, and some people will probably hate the sounds. But it's the new approach to "workstation" that is really the biggest smile for me. 

Audio demo to follow today ... a little something tasty I cooked up after lunch here ...


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## Ed (May 14, 2013)

mk282 @ Tue May 14 said:


> Ed @ 14.5.2013 said:
> 
> 
> > Speaking about Kontakt FX, does anyone know why if you turn up stereo widener to the max it pans to the left?
> ...



If you turn up stereo to max AND click pseudo stereo button it pans it left :| Pseudo stereo pans it left anyway but becomes more extreme the more you turn up the stereo knob,


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## MacQ (May 14, 2013)

Seems like a lot of you are chomping at the bit for the walk-through videos, so I threw this quick audio demo together to give you a sneak peak at the utility that Underscore provides:

https://soundcloud.com/studioweapon/audio-nugget-01

Lots more to come as we ramp up to release!

Cheers!


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## R. Soul (May 14, 2013)

That was pretty cool. 
Reminds me a bit of multi-fx units like Camelspace.

It sounds like it could be a great addition to a composers arsenal but as mentioned by others, at $1000 it better be spectacular - and even then I can't see myself spending that much on synths sounds + fx.


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## dpasdernick (May 14, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New audio nugget!*

Hmmm... not sure if I totally get it? I'm not hearing anything here that I couldn't do with things like Omnisphere, Evolve, UVI, etc.

As someone mentioned something like Symphobia (which, forgive me, I think is over priced) can demand $1000 PS had to record a real orchestra and that ain't cheap. This sounds like a bunch of tempo synced synths. Cinematic Guitars does this very well and I got it last year for $99.00. 

Stu, I'm sure I'm missing something but at $1000 you're going to have a tough sell IMHO. 

With all due respect,

Darren


----------



## R.Cato (May 15, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New audio nugget!*



dpasdernick @ Wed May 15 said:


> Hmmm... not sure if I totally get it? I'm not hearing anything here that I couldn't do with things like Omnisphere, Evolve, UVI, etc.



Exactly. But I don't know if you can achieve that kind of arrangement with just playing some chords into one midi channel. That's what Underscore primarily seems to do.

Nevertheless 1000 is too much. You can buy the whole Aeon bundle and have the same results within 2-3 attempts more.


----------



## MrCambiata (May 15, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New audio nugget!*

which instruments are included in this library?


----------



## Saxer (May 15, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New audio nugget!*

it's an interesting concept!

the success depends on the flexibility... if it's used in a few csi-tv-shows and everybody recognizes preset 15 and 79 it might be burned out quite fast - like everybody recognizes yamahas tyros styles after a while.

but i think stu is capable enough to offer a deliberate product :D 
at least it should be possible to make your own "style" of sounds and sequences inside the modules to personalize the musical output. i'm really looking forward to see more.

about the price: when underscore turns out to be a useful and professional tool it might be worth the $$. why not? and if not, who is forced to buy it?


----------



## G.R. Baumann (May 15, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New audio nugget!*

From the soundcloud example. I am very much reminded to Stephen Kay's KARMA - Kay Algorithmic Realtime Music Architecture- Technology that is unique and has changed the workstation market considerably. This too is pure and ingenious use of Midi Information. In what way this can be compared remains to be seen. 

http://www.karma-lab.com/karma/What_Is_KARMA.html?p=KARMA/What_Is_KARMA.html

Last but not least, it is a Kontakt library and not a totally new development as was Eric Pershing's STEAM engine just for for example.

I will not comment on the pricing of this package until I see in detail what is included.


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## mk282 (May 15, 2013)

Ed @ 14.5.2013 said:


> mk282 @ Tue May 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed @ 14.5.2013 said:
> ...



Depends on the sample, then. Pseudo stereo is intended only for mono sources. I have tried a mono and a stereo sample now, with mono sample it works as intended - creates a pseudo stereo signal, and when Spread is set to max, I definitely have a stereo signal, not only panned to the left. If I use a stereo sample, using Pseudo Stereo doesn't quite influence the sound (but this depends on the sample - on some samples it will make it sound more mono).

But no, it doesn't pan it to the left. I'm not sure what you're doing with it... :D


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## lucky909091 (May 15, 2013)

(comment on the soundcloud-example):
I do not think that it re-sampled the original sound of "Alicias Keys" and sequenced it in the manner of the program choosed.

It seems to be an FX-machine coming with intern samples.
You put in a chord and it outputs the chord with the sequence you choose and the intern sound you want.

Hmmm... is that really worth so much money?


----------



## RasmusFors (May 15, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New audio nugget!*

I will support the 1k price. A high price lessens the chance of pirating, and also it will make it more "premium". If you take Evolve Mutations as an example, it's very cheap but that makes it's sound more widespread. You can hear it everywhere, and that for me ruins it. I don't want to pay a low price to get sounds everybody has, I want to pay a high price for a more exlusive sound. 

I'll be waiting for the demos so I can see how usefull it will be to me. I try to avoid as much of these "sampled synths" product as possible, but this sounds very interesting.


----------



## Ed (May 15, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New audio nugget!*



RasmusFors @ Wed May 15 said:


> I will support the 1k price. A high price lessens the chance of pirating,



lol are you joking? If anything it will be pirated *more*. Its not like there arent any expensive software or libraries available to pirate. $1000 isnt very much by comparison to what has already been put up to be pirated.


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## MacQ (May 15, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New audio nugget!*



RasmusFors @ Wed May 15 said:


> If you take Evolve Mutations as an example, it's very cheap but that makes it's sound more widespread. You can hear it everywhere, and that for me ruins it. I don't want to pay a low price to get sounds everybody has, I want to pay a high price for a more exlusive sound.
> 
> I'll be waiting for the demos so I can see how usefull it will be to me. I try to avoid as much of these "sampled synths" product as possible, but this sounds very interesting.



Thanks for your support. The comparison to the Evolve series is apt in terms of application, except that while Evolve's sequences are loop-based, Underscore is entirely based on playable multi-samples. This is what allows users of Underscore to be certain that their sounds (and especially their sequences) are unique. I like "cool sequences" as much as the next guy, but I wanted real control over them: I want to play them on any note in any key, use non-standard rhythmic meter (5/4, 7/8, etc), and have them freely adaptable at any moment if I want to quickly shift directions. 

Underscore really shines in client meetings and spotting sessions. The "how about something like this?" factor is a real asset when conveying musical ideas live from the keyboard. My primary goal has always been to make my work easier, and it's gonna make your work easier too.


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## MaestroRage (May 15, 2013)

I'm a little hesitant to see the 1k price tag as well, but I can't deny I totally see the value of such a system. Question is naturally of course if such a system will warrant the tag. 

From the concept alone i'm sold for now. Will be picking it up.


----------



## benmrx (May 15, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New audio nugget!*

Exactly. IMO, if you're gonna go for that price, then maybe market this as something that's designed for 'pro composers'. Sounds that are only available to the elite. Sounds you won't find at the kids house down the street. Hip hop hooray.


----------



## RasmusFors (May 15, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New audio nugget!*



> lol are you joking? If anything it will be pirated more. Its not like there arent any expensive software or libraries available to pirate. $1000 isnt very much by comparison to what has already been put up to be pirated.



Well I don't hang around pirate sites so I'm not familiar with which libraries has been pirated and not. But since the library is very expensive and have a smaller target audience than your average cinematic library, I think it will have a chance of surviving the piracy.


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## MaestroRage (May 15, 2013)

Rasmus, you should know that most pirated libraries are not pirated because people who buy it release it to pirates, but because the pirates themselves buy the product!

If a pirate group consists of 5 people, pooling 200 each to pick this up wouldn't be hard. 

But please, lets not turn this into another piracy thread. *(MODERATOR: Yes, let's please not!* :mrgreen: )


----------



## Mike Greene (May 15, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New audio nugget!*

I like the concept a lot, because I could see it saving me a ton of time, plus get me some styles I haven't really done before, because this sort of sequencing/gating can be so time consuming.

As far as the price goes, my personal way of deciding whether it's worth a grand is whether or not I think it will save me a couple days worth of work. That's my bottom line right there.


----------



## RasmusFors (May 15, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New audio nugget!*



> If a pirate group consists of 5 people, pooling 200 each to pick this up wouldn't be hard.



Didn't think of that, but thanks for the information  

But yeah, lets stay on topic. When will the video demos be released ? I'm really looking forward to this.


----------



## germancomponist (May 15, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New audio nugget!*

Maybe it is something like this?

http://www.pgmusic.com/ ?


----------



## Saxer (May 15, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New audio nugget!*



germancomponist @ 15.5.2013 said:


> Maybe it is something like this?
> 
> http://www.pgmusic.com/ ?


i wish band in a box was working in realtime!


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## zacnelson (May 15, 2013)

I don't know much about Omnisphere etc, however I was really blown away by that example with the Alicia's Keys chord progression.


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## Greg (May 15, 2013)

You should really consider offering a 30 day refund policy. Since you are a new company and offering such a beast of a product right off the bat.

If people DO take the risk and buy the product but are extremely unhappy with it, you will probably see a relentless storm of bad press. Especially since the price is already controversial.


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## dpasdernick (May 15, 2013)

Greg @ Wed May 15 said:


> You should really consider offering a 30 day refund policy. Since you are a new company and offering such a beast of a product right off the bat.
> 
> If people DO take the risk and buy the product but are extremely unhappy with it, you will probably see a relentless storm of bad press. Especially since the price is already controversial.






Just put it up on Try-Sounds. Win-Win for everybody,


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## MaestroRage (May 15, 2013)

Isn't Try-Sounds only available for products offered by Best Service? I think somebody wrote that a while back. A micro patch like what sound iron does wouldn't be unwelcome either me thinks. Or a lite version one could upgrade to later.


----------



## tdavilio (May 15, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New audio nugget!*

I'm a pro. listened to the demo, it sounds good but not 1k for saving some time in layering. Have to hear more cause the sounds Ive heard aren't all that. IMO
If it was about 300 I would probably pick it up.


----------



## Steve Steele (May 15, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New audio nugget!*

At the risk of looking like a complete idiot, is Underscore something like Scriptorium with a GUI? And if "Kontakt's delay sucks", how would Underscore get around that?

I've got a bangin' headache at the moment. So if I'm way off base, I blame it on that..


----------



## Simon Ravn (May 16, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New audio nugget!*



tdavilio @ Thu May 16 said:


> I'm a pro. listened to the demo, it sounds good but not 1k for saving some time in layering. Have to hear more cause the sounds Ive heard aren't all that. IMO
> If it was about 300 I would probably pick it up.



Oh, you're a pro. 8)


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## MarkS_Comp (May 16, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New audio nugget!*



tdavilio @ Wed May 15 said:


> I'm a pro.



Obviously.


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## MaestroRage (May 16, 2013)

my mom tells me i'm a pro.


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## tdavilio (May 16, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New audio nugget!*

Man U guys are sarcastic. 

Please don't respond. The only reason I said that was because earlier posts said because of the price it was only for pros.

Let's not go any further with this BS. I was just giving my opinion. Don't be like EW forum.


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## MikeH (May 16, 2013)

MaestroRage @ Thu May 16 said:


> my mom tells me i'm a pro.




Thank you for giving me the best laugh I've had all week! :D


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## EastWest Lurker (May 16, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New audio nugget!*



tdavilio @ Thu May 16 said:


> Man U guys are sarcastic. All right, I'll stand behind my words.
> 
> Google me
> 
> ...



Tony, you must be new here or you would know that many, if not most here, don't think credits matter because all opinions are just opinions.

It is IMHO a sad view, but it is part of the forum's ethos.


----------



## Gusfmm (May 16, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New audio nugget!*



EastWest Lurker @ Thu May 16 said:


> Tony, you must be new here or you would know that many, if not most here, don't think credits matter because all opinions are just opinions.
> 
> It is IMHO a sad view, but it is part of the forum's ethos.




You know the saying,* sad *(maybe) *but true* (no doubt).


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## tdavilio (May 16, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New audio nugget!*

All right, All right. You all had a good laugh. I have a sense of humor too.

Peace


----------



## EastWest Lurker (May 16, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New audio nugget!*



Gusfmm @ Thu May 16 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu May 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Tony, you must be new here or you would know that many, if not most here, don't think credits matter because all opinions are just opinions.
> ...



True that it exists here. Sad that people actually profess to believe it.


----------



## Plasuma!!! (May 16, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New audio nugget!*



R.Cato @ Wed May 15 said:


> dpasdernick @ Wed May 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmm... not sure if I totally get it? I'm not hearing anything here that I couldn't do with things like Omnisphere, Evolve, UVI, etc.
> ...


Then again, those are basically ROMplers. They're all about presets and built-in samples.

You know all that tonal rhythmic coolness in Evolve and pads with complex motion in Omnisphere? I'd totally fork up a grand to be able to quickly build those kinda sounds from scratch. One sound like that takes me days to put together myself, and it's rare that I can use it in another project.

If Underscore makes that process faster (_and fun_), Stu can have all my money.


----------



## Plasuma!!! (May 16, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New audio nugget!*



EastWest Lurker @ Thu May 16 said:


> Gusfmm @ Thu May 16 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Thu May 16 said:
> ...


Credits don't mean much if the demeanor doesn't match a professional attitude. If Hans posted uninformed bull-pucky under his pseudonym here, I'd have a hard time believing it was him; but he doesn't, and that contributes more to the weight of his opinions than his nearly endless list of credits.

Besides, meritocratic societies don't function too well. Just look at universities, they're full of tenure-stressed professors who work their butts off to steal ideas just to keep their worth in the eyes of the academic elite. Would you trust the opinion of a guy who makes a living by publishing trash papers? The guy probably doesn't even know what's in most of them; it might just be LaTeX practice to him.

It's safer to take credits out of the picture and let folks be representative of themselves. I don't care if a guy has absolutely nothing published or if he's scored every film ever to exist, I'll take his opinion if he presents and demonstrates it well.


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## MacQ (May 23, 2013)

The first of several videos explaining the design and use of _UNDERSCORE_ is now available. It contains a personal introduction (hello, world!) followed by an interface tour. More to come in the next 9 days!! 

https://vimeo.com/66835442


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## NGPixel (May 23, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Overview Video!!*

Just saw the video and the audio demo, it all sounds nice but the 1000$ asking price is just ridiculous and overpriced for what that is.

The only libraries where it make sense to ask for such a price are string/orchestral libraries. They have to hire about 60+ players and record thousands of articulations in a hall they rented as well. So, as good as your product might be, there's no logic behind this astronomical price. 

Frankly, even though the results you demoed are great, there's nothing so special in what I've seen that justifies charging twice as much as Omnisphere.

Prove me wrong, but you would have easily doubled your sales with a more reasonably priced offer...


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## Ed (May 23, 2013)

Well cant wait to hear the actual sounds next  You know Heavyocity has a great UI as well......

I still think it cant possibly justify the price tag, you got a lot of work to do to prove it lol


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## woodsdenis (May 23, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Overview Video!!*

It does looks and sounds interesting no doubt, I haven't seen or heard the USP or what justifies the price tag. I would have thought Stu, that you would have hit us with that straight out of the block ? Look forward to the rest of the vids


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## doctornine (May 23, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Overview Video!!*

Well it does look interesting, but would I really pay more than I just paid for Aeon ?

er ?????


----------



## Craig Sharmat (May 23, 2013)

Ed @ Thu May 23 said:


> Well cant wait to hear the actual sounds next  You know Heavyocity has a great UI as well......
> 
> I still think it cant possibly justify the price tag, you got a lot of work to do to prove it lol



The presentation was a bit of a head scratcher, it explained how easy things are going to be with no audio examples to show the simplicity. For me that made the vid practically useless. It actually added the feeling it is going to be as complicated as most GUI's (not that all are complicated).


----------



## Plasuma!!! (May 23, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Overview Video!!*

Well he said it was the first of a series of tutorial videos. That vid was the "overview", and it works just fine as an overview, I think.

I want to see how this thing works, too. So far, I get that Underscore has all these controls and modulation possibilities, but I want to see the creation of a sound from start to finish. Just how easy is it and what are the limits?

If there was a demo available to try it out, and it did what I think it does, I'd have bought it already. The lack of some kind of hands-on or even second-hand experience makes this a tough sell for me. For sure, if I have to rely on a page-by-page technical tutorial for first impressions, I might pass this up.


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## snowleopard (May 23, 2013)

Too rich for my blood. But it does sound good, and the GUI looks clean.


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## Greg (May 23, 2013)

Every demo is the same genre... ethereal, uplifting, emotional. Can it do anything else?

Lets hear something modern, hybrid, and edgy? Right now it sounds like a regurgitation of Omnisphere at best.


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## MacQ (May 23, 2013)

For those interested in the sound of the presets (which are ALL fully editable), I've put together a demonstration which walks through some of the sounds in _UNDERSCORE_. This video does NOT contain technical or usage information, and is purely a sound demonstration. The next video that will be released is a detailed explanation of the FluidPhrase Engine, and will clarify how _UNDERSCORE_ functions and why it is such a powerful tool, particularly for media composers.

https://vimeo.com/66871961


----------



## Plasuma!!! (May 23, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New preset demo!!*

I know better than to judge a workstation by its presets, but I can't say I was blown away there.

Waiting for the next vids...


----------



## G.R. Baumann (May 23, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New preset demo!!*

It is a tough world out there. One wrong first step can make for an awful heavy rest of the walk.

Made up my mind, it is not going to "make my world better", and it is not going to make your bank account swell by a thousand bucks, not from me anyways.

Good Luck


----------



## Craig Sharmat (May 24, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New preset demo!!*

I found the audio demo interesting, not because of the premade sounds which are nice but because the engine allows us to use our own sounds. The statement that the sounds in the demo were made with "extensive custom processing" concerns me as if I was to use my own sounds would I need to edit them a lot to make it work. My guess is this is a case by case basis. 

It seems that if this is a successful product a Johnny come lately or any company with a decent GUI will come along at a much lower price point allowing users to import samples into their engine.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 24, 2013)

I really want to give MacQ the benefit of the doubt butI am still waiting to see something that shows me how I can do this kind of stuff so more quickly with it than I can presently without sounding just like everyone else who uses it.


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## Ed (May 24, 2013)

Stu really woudnt be getting such a hard time if the price wasnt *more than Damage and Aeon and Evolve put together*. If $1000 was your budget, then for only a few more dollars you could even grab Dan's Alpha in addition to all that  

The presets were "nice", a few were the apparent obligatory cheese that for some reason many devs want to put into their synth products even Omni. But there were some nice sounds there I'd use, I quite like the production on some of them. Problem is, at this price point i want more than that. Also, I would think in a quick patch walkthrough you'd have the best patches to catch the ear, which didnt bode well for what we didnt hear. If there was some other knock out patches why didnt we hear them?

So the real question is really, is the ability to use your own sounds really worth that much? Maybe we will see, but....

This seems like a good product, it would have a good life, many would buy it Im sure. But its a real mistake to charge so much for it and therefore people wont be paying for it, there's just too many products out there that are much, much cheaper that do similar things. The price is just out of this world and totally divorced from the market. Is it really better to get 1 sale for $1000 vs 30 or more sales at $200? I mean if you want to keep it exclusive I get that, but then you need a product that seems seriously worthy of being exclusive. And the problem with starting out so high is, if you have a sale (due to lack of people buying it) you'll need to bring it down SO much that you'll piss off people who actually did pay the full amount.


----------



## germancomponist (May 24, 2013)

Ed @ Fri May 24 said:


> And the problem with starting out so high is, if you have a sale (due to lack of people buying it) you'll need to bring it down SO much that you'll piss off people who actually did pay the full amount.



Ot: Many years ago I bought an EMU DARWIN Hard Disk Recorder for, hm, I think 2500 bucks. 3 weeks later it was sold for 400. I felt very fine...... .  :mrgreen:


----------



## woodsdenis (May 24, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New preset demo!!*

I am sorry, It still sounds like an Omnisphere clone to me, nothing in the videos so far to dispel that belief. If the real killer is the phrase player, lets see it, even then it would have to be of Steven Kay's Karma level to justify the price. As Ed said $1000 can get you a lot software these days.


----------



## NGPixel (May 24, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New preset demo!!*

When 95% of the posts about your product are about pricing, there must a problem with it, just saying...


----------



## Guy Rowland (May 24, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New preset demo!!*



NGPixel @ Fri May 24 said:


> When 95% of the posts about your product are about pricing, there must a problem with it, just saying...



Yeah... if it was $299 it might be getting a much warmer reception. It does sound like Omnisphere, but of course can't hope to match the breadth and depth. And even after all this time, we still don't really have that compelling "here's how it will change your life" video. I'm sure a lot of love and man hours have gone into this, but it can't compare to the costs of, say, a full orchestral library that need to be recouped.

Best thing - honestly - is to eat humble pie on the pricing BEFORE release... in fact, the sooner the better, cos then the whole discussion can focus on the product, not the price.


----------



## rgames (May 24, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New preset demo!!*



NGPixel @ Fri May 24 said:


> When 95% of the posts about your product are about pricing, there must a problem with it, just saying...


I lose most of my potential business because my prices are too high.

Pricing is a complicated matter - there are lots of business and personal aspects to consider. There are countless examples of companies that price their products to fit a certain market segment, not to maximize profits. Adobe recently got hammered for the switch to the subscription model for their software. A lot of people will be forced to pay a lot more money if they stick with Adobe and Adobe will undoubtedly see a reduction in profits. However, in a few years their forums will have fewer posts from guys trying to get Premiere to export videos of their cats for YouTube. Reducing the requirement to deal with folks at the low end is a big push for a lot of businesses. It makes doing your business a lot more pleasurable, which is worth the loss in profits for a lot of businesses.

There are businesses who charge $300 for a pair of socks. In the end, it's just a pair of socks and there's no real way to distinguish them from any other pair of socks. But those businesses are still around....

rgames


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## Ed (May 24, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New preset demo!!*



rgames @ Fri May 24 said:


> However, in a few years their forums will have fewer posts from guys trying to get Premiere to export videos of their cats for YouTube. Reducing the requirement to deal with folks at the low end is a big push for a lot of businesses. It makes doing your business a lot more pleasurable, which is worth the loss in profits for a lot of businesses.



On the other hand those same people will probably just ask on another forum, and download pirated versions of the same product and Adobe loses out on their custom. 



> There are businesses who charge $300 for a pair of socks. In the end, it's just a pair of socks and there's no real way to distinguish them from any other pair of socks. But those businesses are still around....


 
Probably because the socks are made with wonderful material and it isnt a business investment. Just because its expensive doesnt mean it will sell and doesnt make it better. It doesnt matter how much work you put into it, it only matters what the market is willing to pay for it.


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## benmrx (May 24, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New preset demo!!*



rgames @ Fri May 24 said:


> There are businesses who charge $300 for a pair of socks. In the end, it's just a pair of socks and there's no real way to distinguish them from any other pair of socks. But those businesses are still around....
> rgames



Sure, but how many people buying $300 socks use that as an investment towards their own business? My guess is most people with $300 socks are also driving $80,000 cars...., things that are luxeries for themselves in their personal lives. Not tools for their business, in which case it's all about the bottom line. 

Guy with $300 socks owns a business that paints houses:

Does he buy the $1,000 roller that claims to 'revolutionize his workflow', or will he just buy $100 cans of paint, 20 rollers, 50 brushes, 4 ladders, and a box donughts? Maybe...., maybe the $1,000 roller means that he'll get the job done quicker...., but there's no real way to know, until you plop down $1,000. By the way, you can't sell that roller for $500 and recoup any costs. 

Now, let's say you're NOT 'in the business', but you're well off financially, and it's time to paint your kids room. Do you buy the $1,000 roller?


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## germancomponist (May 24, 2013)

What a discussion here?!?!?! 

How much money do you spend for an I-Phone or I-Pad, although you know that they are produced by modern slaves?

Why do not wait for what he will present to us?


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## Plasuma!!! (May 24, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New preset demo!!*

I _want_ this to be a holy grail of sound design. The price and intent actually got my interest more than anything else, but I'm still waiting for a video that will show me why it's so special or what it can do to make my life easier.

I have no problem with the price if it does what I hope it does, but that said, I'm not going to pay $1000 for another Omnisphere - I already have one.


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## Greg (May 24, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New preset demo!!*

The gui and graphics alone scare me away from the $1000.00 price. I know its a shallow assumption but if you're going to compete with the big dogs, make sure you compete with all facets of the production value they put into their products.


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## germancomponist (May 24, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New preset demo!!*



Greg @ Fri May 24 said:


> The gui and graphics alone scare me away from the $1000.00 price. I know its a shallow assumption but if you're going to compete with the big dogs, make sure you compete with all facets of the production value they put into their products.



I am able to programm 100.000 sounds with only a farth sample in Kontakt. And, a gui says nothing to me and is not important for me. I always buy libs because their "sound". So again: We all do not know exactly what will come with this library, so why not wait?


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## Ed (May 24, 2013)

Maybe what we heard from the presets was originally only crappy blips and bloops that once put through the amazing engine became glorious. 
Now that would certainly get my attention! :D 



> So again: We all do not know exactly what will come with this library, so why not wait?


 
We have 3 videos, 3? audio demos, a lot of talk and a price tag of $1000 where you could buy 3 similar premium products with nearly $200 spare, I think we are allowed to have this face: :?


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## germancomponist (May 24, 2013)

But let us wait! Who knows..... .


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## Ed (May 24, 2013)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Your-Marketing-Sucks-Mark-Stevens/dp/1400081696 (We will, but in any event...)


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## germancomponist (May 24, 2013)

Ed @ Fri May 24 said:


> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Your-Marketing-Sucks-Mark-Stevens/dp/1400081696 (We will, but in any event...)



Ed, you're one of the few people here who have recognized my special humor.


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## MacQ (May 24, 2013)

I've just uploaded a new video which walks you through patch creation and basic use of the FluidPhrase Engine in _UNDERSCORE_.

This video is the first of several detailed demonstrations of _UNDERSCORE_, and its breadth of features.

Thanks for all of your comments. I appreciate the interest, and I'm excited to show you more!

https://vimeo.com/66948599


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## Guy Rowland (May 24, 2013)

Ed @ Fri May 24 said:


> We've have 3 videos, 3? audio demos, a lot of talk and a price tag of $1000 where you could buy 3 similar premium products with nearly $200 spare, I think we are allowed to have this face: :?



Exactly - 4 videos now. How long do we have to wait? :? 

It's a nice enough sequencer, but I still don't hear anything that revolutionary and can't see how it would revolutionise a workflow... sorry Stu.


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## Andrew Aversa (May 24, 2013)

As as fellow dev I really have to commend Stu on the design of this instrument. The level of modulation, all the envelopes, FX, multiple layers... it's really amazing stuff. The comparisons to Omnisphere are apt, but remember you can't load your own samples into Omni..


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## G.R. Baumann (May 24, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New preset demo!!*

fwiw

My decision against it was not based on the price but....

1. This is "just" a Kontakt Library

2. What I heard on sounds, I already have in various ways. 

3. Contrary to other Kontakt libraries I heard nothing that I consider inspirational. 

4. As someone else said earlier, this is not anywhere close to Karma, Kay Algorithmic Realtime Music Architecture.

5. To me this comes across as a lot of marketing blah instead of a lot of hard development work resulting in truly innovative stuff.

6. Would I buy it if it costs 100 bucks? Seriously...Nope!

...shrugs...


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## paulmatthew (May 24, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! New preset demo!!*

If this is being released on May 31st , why can't I find a website for StudioWeapon? All I've seen so far are Vimeo video demos and a lot of discussion about pricing on here. I agree the pricing is too high for what I've heard so far. It's a big turn off for most of us when there isn't even a legitimate website to go to. Should start with cheaper , smaller Kontakt instruments or libraries , get people interested in your products then unleash a monster on everyone. Reputation of a company , it's support , staff etc are all important to those of us who buy these type of libraries and instruments.The price scares a lot of end users away and it's even worse when the demos don't demonstrate anything awe inspiring. I wish you the best of luck with StudioWeapon but I'm going to pass based on what I've seen , not what I've read.


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## Plasuma!!! (May 25, 2013)

zircon_st @ Fri May 24 said:


> The comparisons to Omnisphere are apt, but remember you can't load your own samples into Omni..


But Omnisphere ships with tons of bread 'n' butter and exotic sample sources. Underscore caught my interest because it was being hyped as a revolution in sound design workflow, but the latest video gave me flashbacks to what I've done with Omnisphere in the past. Inflexible UIs with pages and knobs are just too clumsy and unintuitive for what is supposed to be an easy-mode workstation. I expected something friendlier.

I can see Underscore appealing to people who bought Omnisphere, but have been wanting to import their own samples into it. This will probably be gold to them, but that's a very small niche, so maybe the price is very appropriate where it is.

The hype is what disappointed me, not the product or price. I imagine this will be a very useful tool for someone who wants a little more flexibility.


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## woodsdenis (May 25, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Patch creation walk-through!!*

The reality is that Omnisphere outshines this in every department, fx, modulation,filters etc. The only real difference being the importing of your own samples, with 50 gb of content and the top sound designers on the planet I would take Omni anytime. Underscore is not terrible or lacking in innovation but overhyped and over priced. Seriously this is a sub $200 library at best, just for the sample import facility.


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## shakuman (May 25, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Patch creation walk-through!!*



woodsdenis @ Sat May 25 said:


> Seriously this is a sub $200 library at best, just for the sample import facility.



+1 =o


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## germancomponist (May 25, 2013)

MacQ @ Sat May 25 said:


> I've just uploaded a new video which walks you through patch creation and basic use of the FluidPhrase Engine in _UNDERSCORE_.
> 
> This video is the first of several detailed demonstrations of _UNDERSCORE_, and its breadth of features.
> 
> ...



A nice gui, but what is "new" here? All what you are showing us in the vid I can do (and always did) without having _Underscore_. ?


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## EforEclectic (May 25, 2013)

I feel like I'm looking at 

http://i.imgur.com/Bm5VpJl.jpg

but inside Kontakt. Perhaps an oversimplification, but I really can't imagine how this product helps me do stuff I currently can't do quickly and efficiently today with my current tools. 1000 bucks seems really steep for this. If the sound content is great, I would be on board at the $100-200 price point.

I know that library development is a work of love and it is frustrating to see others tear down your hard work - so hear me when I say that the naysayers in this thread aren't saying that your library is bad by any means, it seems like it has some potential, but when you apply the $1000 price tag, it gets compared against some seriously MIGHTY competition, and our funds aren't unlimited.


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## Tatu (May 25, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Patch creation walk-through!!*

Umm.. Omnisphere in stacked mode 1 - _Underscore_ 0. But that is only, if this is a 1k product. So far I'm only seeing shortcuts to modulating effects so and some filter cut offs and multiple layers of delays doesn't really cut it, anyone can do that. 

This should come with a 100Gb library of unique, top notch samples and 4000 accurately categorized presets for the prize.


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## MacQ (May 25, 2013)

I just want to say, thanks so much for all of your comments. It's great to see, especially since I've been in development for more than a year.

I should just reiterate that this product is really intended for a niche market: working composers with very tight deadlines, who want to work more quickly and get the sound of "loops" without committing to specific harmonic, rhythmic, or tempo choices. _UNDERSCORE_ is a product designed for writing cues for underscoring drama, and so these sounds and this framework have been carefully considered to work well in "up-against-the-wall-at-3am-with-no-ideas" situations. 

Certainly the preset sounds are the kinds of things you've heard before ... but that's only because those are the kinds of sounds that work under dialogue, in my experience. I wanted this library to be a collection of useable-in-situ load & go patches for media composers.

If you're comfortable with your current working method, _UNDERSCORE_ may not be for you. If you have the time and sound design chops to whip up complicated sounds and sequences in Ableton Live!, that's great! This product doesn't replace your ability to do that, it merely offers a more immediate and real-time approach to performing the same task. The utility of the sequencer to generate new creative ideas is difficult to explain, but it is in my opinion one of the most useful and unique tools I've ever worked with. While it won't write music for you, having the ability to program and trigger complicated rhythms across the range of your keyboard with only a few fingers provides rhythm and harmony like a guitar, so that all you have to do is think about the melody. And at 3am, that's worth a lot.

If you're a synth or "hybrid" composer and you deliver these kinds of cues, it's a great sandbox. If you're mostly an orchestral composer, you'll love it because it's not loops, and it's very flexible harmonically. Which gives you more time to spend developing your orchestrations and massaging your strings. :-D

The next video will be out tomorrow evening, and will explain how the FluidPhrase Engine works in detail.

Thanks for watching!


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## woodsdenis (Jun 1, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Patch creation walk-through!!*

With all the fuss and hype surrounding this, what happened to the release?


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## koolkeys (Jun 2, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is coming, May 31st!! Patch creation walk-through!!*

I don't know what to think about this library. I mean, I want to bad to like it and give a big thumbs up, but I can't help but be skeptical.

First, the good. I actually like the interface. It's not Omnisphere or other top interface quality stuff, but it's not bad. It seems to serve it's purpose.

I also think that it appears the work that went into flexibility is obvious. It really looks like a well-featured synth engine inside of Kontakt. GREAT! It seems that there is a lot you can do. And for everything that is there.........it's laid out quite well for the most part.

With that being said.......

I can do virtually everything that this product can do using other products already. Sure, it's complex. But it's nowhere near as elegant as Ominsphere and some other products on the market. I don't even know why this is being compared to Ominsphere because for me, these sounds have all been so much more generic and lifeless compared to Omni.

But putting other libraries aside, and Omni aside as well......there is nothing that is being done here that you can't accomplish with any of the fabulous synthesizers already available. I mean, give me Gladiator, Zebra, Alchemy or Synthmaster. They all do this stuff, and many great synths allow sample import already and let you get this same sound for much less. 

That might sound harsh, but it's true. 

And I just don't buy the whole "this is a niche product" argument. Niche products are still worth the money that is being charged for them. And while I'm sure there may be a few that will buy this, is that REALLY what you want with something that you spent a lot of time on? A few people? It's being marketed as something that works like Omni or Aeon or whatever, yet I don't see anything in here that would cause a professional composer, at 3am in the morning, to choose this over those OUTSIDE of sample import. But at a price that suggests it can do more, and easier.

But even with the sample import, again, most composers would bring up something like Alchemy to get results much cheaper, and with better available effects. 

Is it just me, or does anyone else watch that fluid phrase video and think that they actually made creating that sound MORE complex than it needed to be? All the jumping around from screen to screen and modulating parameters and effects..........it sure seemed like this is NOT the "need a sound quick" tool that it's being marketed as. I have seen the developer say multiple times that this is for those moments when you need a sound but can't think of anything. But if I can't think of anything, how is a complex interface like this with common synthesizer-level routing and modulation going to solve my creativity problem when I'm flippin' tired at 3am?

I think part of the problem is that, despite the complex scripting and extensive interface.......there isn't any real processing going on outside of a few fx and an arpeggiator. It's almost like they managed to take something simple and make it SEEM more complex, but in the end, it's only common features. A LOT of common features, but nothing new. We've really seen it all before in some way or another.

I think this product has loads of potential if it comes with a library that matches the price tag. But so far, there is no real details about what is included outside of a few patches that started with "boring" samples, like the last one that started with guitar samples.

Give me STELLAR samples to start with, and then let me tweak. THAT is why products like Omnisphere and the Heavyocity stuff sell so well. The source material is fantastic and stands above what you find included elsewhere. 

If I were to offer advice, I would say to definitely lower the price. Not just a hundred or two hundred, but SLASH it. Then record some fabulous samples to start with to truly show what can be done(unless we're missing the included stuff).

Or sell the script. If you can load your own samples, then market this as the "functionality you always wanted to have for your own samples". Include whatever samples you have put in already as examples and starter material. 

I honestly and sincerely hope that I'm proven wrong on this. But I just don't see it. I don't see where the ease of use comes in. I can see the potential, but it's not lining up with the supposed vision that the dev is putting out there.

Accept my post and others as a challenge to do better, or a challege to prove us wrong. Or accept the criticism as real-world customers who probably fit into your "niche" audience more than you realize, and don't be stubborn. It sucks to have your baby ripped apart, I know. But it sucks more to work on something for so long, ignore your potential customers, and come away with nothing but wasted time. Jumping into a crowded and VERY competitive market full of legendary developers and sound designers, at a price point that is more than double their flagship products, and with hype that even the best products on the market don't use.......you're just setting yourself up for a lashing. 

Good luck, and please don't take this personal. I'm only being honest, and I strongly desire to be proven wrong and to eat my words.

Brent


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## MacQ (Jun 3, 2013)

Hi guys ...

I'm pleased to announce that _UNDERSCORE_ has been delivered to Continuata for packaging and release. It will be available for sale on Friday the 7th of June!

It's a one week delay, but today I'm proud to release the comprehensive feature walk-through for the FluidPhrase Engine sequencer. It's a little over 20 minutes long, and should give you a very good sense of how the FluidPhrase Engine works to help you generate new musical ideas. 

https://vimeo.com/67541279

Also, check out the StudioWeapon webpage at www.studioweapon.com . It includes some more information about _UNDERSCORE_ and contains links to the previously release videos.

Enjoy!

~Stu


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## Blackster (Jun 3, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ will be here, June 7th!! FluidPhrase Engine video added!!*

Hi Stu,

it could confuse some guys that the "." is part of the link  ... at least that happened to me. Initially I thought there is no website to go to.

*MODERATOR NOTE: Thanks Blackster! Count me as a guy who got confused and thought it was dead link. It's fixed now.*


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## koolkeys (Jun 3, 2013)

MacQ @ Mon Jun 03 said:


> Hi guys ...
> 
> I'm pleased to announce that _UNDERSCORE_ has been delivered to Continuata for packaging and release. It will be available for sale on Friday the 7th of June!
> 
> ...


Going to watch the video now. Despite my potentially overly harsh words above(which I was just being honest), I would love to be proven wrong and would love to give this product a chance. And I definitely HOPE you sell whatever amount you are hoping to sell. I don't want to see any developer fail. Reality is harsh sometimes, but I wish you success.

Brent


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## G.R. Baumann (Jun 3, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ will be here, June 7th!! FluidPhrase Engine video added!!*

I don't know what to say... without ruffling feathers and rattling cages... guess it is impossible!

I have no idea how old you are, I guess you are still pretty young, which is a good thing, enabling you to learn from errors of judgement, the latter I think you made in spades, product, marketing, pricing, and more.

Brent made a huge effort to write some of these things down, and I think you would be well advised to listen very closely.

I would predict that there will be close to zero sales of this product as is in the next two quarters. This will be a tough lesson, really tough, the best advise I could give you is to go back to the drawing board and think about value for money in terms of what is out there already. This ain't a 1k product to begin with. What I also would suggest is to think hard what YOUR core competence is, then make decisions what you need in addition to create a product that has market acceptance from day one.

It can be done, and it has been done many times. 

Best wishes
Georg


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## koolkeys (Jun 3, 2013)

I think another mistake is to continue to dismiss the users on this board as "this product just isn't for you, it's a niche product". But there isn't a better place to find users for this library than right here, and your BEST POSSIBLE CUSTOMERS are staring you in the face and telling you why you won't get their money. 

Pride is tough to push aside sometimes, and everyone thinks their work is worth more than it usually is. There are developers who spent far more than one year on products and charged much less. 

It's all about perspective. If you look around and still think this product is worth $1,000, and you're willing to accept that you just won't have many buyers, then it is what it is. Nobody can stop you. 

But man, I sure would like to see you realize your dream and gain the respect of users here and elsewhere by listening, adjusting, and knocking it out of the park. Unless you're just hoping for a quick payday by hoping that ten people buy this, but I can't imagine that a few users is all you want to buy it, right?

Your niche market customers are HERE. You have read their posts over 5 pages. You would be well-served to take their words into account, IMO.

Brent


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## Greg (Jun 3, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ will be here, June 7th!! FluidPhrase Engine video added!!*

I really hope someone who buys the library will make a full third party video review, a la Daniel James style


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## marcotronic (Jun 3, 2013)

koolkeys @ Mon Jun 03 said:


> I think another mistake is to continue to dismiss the users on this board as "this product just isn't for you, it's a niche product". But there isn't a better place to find users for this library than right here, and your BEST POSSIBLE CUSTOMERS are staring you in the face and telling you why you won't get their money.
> 
> Pride is tough to push aside sometimes, and everyone thinks their work is worth more than it usually is. There are developers who spent far more than one year on products and charged much less.
> 
> ...



+1 well said!

Marco


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## shakuman (Jun 3, 2013)

koolkeys @ Mon Jun 03 said:


> I think another mistake is to continue to dismiss the users on this board as "this product just isn't for you, it's a niche product". But there isn't a better place to find users for this library than right here, and your BEST POSSIBLE CUSTOMERS are staring you in the face and telling you why you won't get their money.
> 
> Pride is tough to push aside sometimes, and everyone thinks their work is worth more than it usually is. There are developers who spent far more than one year on products and charged much less.
> 
> ...



+1..More think will give you a good result. o[])


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## organix (Jun 3, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ will be here, June 7th!! FluidPhrase Engine video added!!*

It seems the price tag was lowered to a $850.

Perhaps it's easier to work with less possibilities in a Kontakt gui as in a monster like Omnisphere.
But I can't see any big advantage or improvements against products like Heavyocity's AEON. 
Maybe there is a little bit difference in the sound goal. AEON aims a more to hybrid composing with crazy and twisted sound. UNDERSCORE's sound seems more like a straight synthesizer with many step movement elements.

I would imagine that many people are interested in UNDERSCORE. But $850 isn't a no brainer for the most.
Personally I'll wait for user demos, reviews and opinions.

-Markus


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## woodsdenis (Jun 3, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ will be here, June 7th!! FluidPhrase Engine video added!!*

Is there any info on Library size? I assume there is content with this ?


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## koolkeys (Jun 3, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ will be here, June 7th!! FluidPhrase Engine video added!!*



organix @ Mon Jun 03 said:


> It seems the price tag was lowered to a $850.


I noticed that. A good move, but IMO, that's just being stubborn still. When people say it's not worth $1,000, they don't mean it's almost worth that. For this library to be priced appropriately, ASSUMING it has a stellar soundset included(which oddly, there is NO information available about the included sounds), it would need to be cut to at least $400. It seems that Studio Weapon just haven't grasped that yet. I don't think they realize just how much you can get with competing products at much less than the price they are charging, even with this "discount". And from what is shown so far, there had better be something revolutionary that they haven't shown yet for it to warrant such a high price. They haven't even yet shown how it will speed things up, or provide a creative boost when you're creatively challenged. I'm sure you can get great sounds with this, but it's still overpriced for what we've seen. 

And I highly doubt there is much more to it. Otherwise, THAT is what Studio Weapon would have led with. You don't introduce your product to the world by covering the 'normal' features. You tell the world the best aspects of it. So far, there is nothing worth $850 in my own personal humble opinion.

I almost feel bad being so negative. But I would be doing a disservice to myself and others if I were to be dishonest about things. I hope the dev can take everyone's advice for what it is: offers to help. 

If there were no potential for this product, and if nobody here was interested, then this thread would still be on page one. It would have died with a big yawn. Fortunately for the dev, they DO have interest. I only fear that their stubborn pricing will eliminate the little interest that still remains from people.



> Personally I'll wait for user demos, reviews and opinions.
> 
> -Markus


Will there be any user demos? 

But seriously, I'm sure there will be some reviews out there. Heck, I'd gladly review it and provide my honest and sincere opinion of it at ProRec if the dev so chooses. Once again, I would love to eat my words. Until then, I agree with everyone else here in wanting to know "where'e the beef?".

Just to be clear from my end: I don't think the product is a bad product. It's definitely had some TLC and blood, sweat and tears to get it to market. I have no doubts that you can get great sounds from it. The audio demos don't sound bad at all. Lots of pretty standard sounds, but not bad AT ALL. I CAN see the power and potential that is there, despite there being nothing revolutionary that I can see.

I think that this product should absolutely be delivered with the knowledge that there are people who are interested. I'm one of them. It's just not at the $850 level, at least based on what has been shown. 

Brent


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## Richard Wilkinson (Jun 3, 2013)

MacQ @ Sat May 25 said:


> I should just reiterate that this product is really intended for a niche market: working composers with very tight deadlines, who want to work more quickly...



That doesn't sound particularly _niche_... That sounds like 90% of the gigs I get.


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## MacQ (Jun 3, 2013)

Hey guys ... 

Just a quick clarification on the price, it was originally announced at "around $1000", and at $850 + tax, it comes to "around $1000". 

The v1.0 release of _UNDERSCORE_ includes 200 instruments. Additional free updates are scheduled, which will include feature enhancements and new patches and multis exploring the depth of what _UNDERSCORE_ can do.

Some people in this thread have questioned my interest in being a long-term developer, or that the price represents some kind of cash-grab on my part. Let me assure you that I plan to support _UNDERSCORE_ and develop future products for a long time, and I have priced this product not at random or with ignorance of the market prices of competing products, but with careful consideration of the value it represents in creating new music and inspiring new ideas.

The most important part of this product is the FluidPhrase Engine, and if you don't play keyboards, you may not appreciate its utility. Fortunately, in addition to these feature walk-through videos, we'll also be doing some live demonstrations of the FPE exploring some of the unique things you can do with it directly from your MIDI keyboard.

As always, thanks for your interest!!


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## woodsdenis (Jun 3, 2013)

MacQ @ Mon Jun 03 said:


> The v1.0 release of _UNDERSCORE_ includes 200 instruments.



Tx Stu, what is the actual GB size of the content ?


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## MarkS_Comp (Jun 3, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ will be here, June 7th!! FluidPhrase Engine video added!!*

Tax?


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## NYC Composer (Jun 3, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ will be here, June 7th!! FluidPhrase Engine video added!!*

Obviously, I'm just weird. I can certainly understand people not wanting to pay the price for this library (or any library, really) but what is the point of making disparaging comments and insulting remarks? The constructive suggestions are sensible, the expressions of surprise are reasonable, but the other stuff? Why the vitriol? Just don't buy it.


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## koolkeys (Jun 3, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ will be here, June 7th!! FluidPhrase Engine video added!!*



NYC Composer @ Mon Jun 03 said:


> Obviously, I'm just weird. I can certainly understand people not wanting to pay the price for this library (or any library, really) but what is the point of making disparaging comments and insulting remarks? The constructive suggestions are sensible, the expressions of surprise are reasonable, but the other stuff? Why the vitriol? Just don't buy it.


What's the point of an online community then? If we only had discussions where everyone agreed, or didn't have different points of view, it would be a pretty boring place, don't you think?

I don't think anyone has ill intentions for Studio Weapon. I certainly don't. People are just being realistic, nothing more.

Brent


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## NYC Composer (Jun 3, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ will be here, June 7th!! FluidPhrase Engine video added!!*



koolkeys @ Mon Jun 03 said:


> NYC Composer @ Mon Jun 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Obviously, I'm just weird. I can certainly understand people not wanting to pay the price for this library (or any library, really) but what is the point of making disparaging comments and insulting remarks? The constructive suggestions are sensible, the expressions of surprise are reasonable, but the other stuff? Why the vitriol? Just don't buy it.
> ...



I thought your suggestions were constructive.


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## koolkeys (Jun 3, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ will be here, June 7th!! FluidPhrase Engine video added!!*



NYC Composer @ Mon Jun 03 said:


> koolkeys @ Mon Jun 03 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Mon Jun 03 said:
> ...


Cool. I just wanted to be clear that my intentions are in the right place, so I hoped that is what came across.

Cheers!

Brent


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## koolkeys (Jun 3, 2013)

MacQ @ Mon Jun 03 said:


> Hey guys ...
> 
> Just a quick clarification on the price, it was originally announced at "around $1000", and at $850 + tax, it comes to "around $1000".


The problem is that anywhere "around $1000" is more than people seem to believe it's worth.



> The v1.0 release of _UNDERSCORE_ includes 200 instruments. Additional free updates are scheduled, which will include feature enhancements and new patches and multis exploring the depth of what _UNDERSCORE_ can do.


But what type of sample content does it have? I know you're probably tired of the Omni comparisons, but Omni has more than 50GB of sample content, and literally thousands of patches, all under a custom made full-featured synthesizer engine with LOADS of custom effects. It's not realistic to expect that you'll be able to compete with Omni, as most can't do that. But when you're pricing something at more than double it's price, it's a fair comparison in terms of value. If Omni doesn't set value in this market, I don't know what does.



> Some people in this thread have questioned my interest in being a long-term developer, or that the price represents some kind of cash-grab on my part. Let me assure you that I plan to support _UNDERSCORE_ and develop future products for a long time, and I have priced this product not at random or with ignorance of the market prices of competing products, but with careful consideration of the value it represents in creating new music and inspiring new ideas.


I think that all sounds great, except that in complete honestly, the videos have yet to show something to warrant that value. As I mentioned already, your engine is vast, and I appreciate that. But it's nothing new or revolutionary, and nothing that can't already be done in many synths out there, sample import included. 

So if you were to sum up what FEATURES make _Underscore_ stand out, what would they be? The whole 'niche' market thing and the 3am thing and the 'composers with tight deadlines' thing are useless here because that defines the majority of people on this board. And the people here aren't seeing that value. So what are we missing exactly? I think more info would be needed. Otherwise, it's just simply overpriced for what it does compared to the competition.

And remember, the value of your work is always going to be higher to you than your customers. It's easy to say that you worked 80 hour weeks for a year and come up with a price, but that doesn't mean anything to the end user. They don't care if you mortgaged your house to fund it, or if you went into hiding for 7 years to record samples, or whatever. They only care what value it brings to them, not to you.



> The most important part of this product is the FluidPhrase Engine, and if you don't play keyboards, you may not appreciate its utility. Fortunately, in addition to these feature walk-through videos, we'll also be doing some live demonstrations of the FPE exploring some of the unique things you can do with it directly from your MIDI keyboard.


I play keyboards. I've played piano for over 23 years. I think that argument is once again a copout because most of your potential customers here, who are interested but critical, likely also play keyboards in some form.

So more info would be appreciated, and maybe, just maybe, people will understand. But with what's currently available, I just don't see it.

Brent


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## benmrx (Jun 3, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ will be here, June 7th!! FluidPhrase Engine video added!!*

Here's a friendly piece of advice. When doing one of these 'walk-thrus', get to some killer sounds right away. You're fluid phrase engine video is WAY closer to a video manual. It doesn't even sound like you're all that interested in the product as you talk about it. Lots of technical, long winded explanations of paramters and knobs..., and IMO overcomplicating some of the descriptions to (maybe) make it sound more complex.

IMO, you need to post a walk-thru video that really gets into the 'sound' of _Underscore_ and be a little candid about it. Have fun, and try to be a little more enthusiastic about your product. It sounds more like a guy in a white lab coat reading facts than a composer telling their peers about the cool new product they're launching.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jun 4, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ will be here, June 7th!! FluidPhrase Engine video added!!*

+1

music should be fun, and products motivating, these videos have neither of those elements. I don't want a clown suit selling me something but make the vids motivational...you are selling!


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## davidgary73 (Jun 4, 2013)

Watched the videos and these videos does not fully show or tells us about how Underscore sounds. 

Probably a simple suggestion to MacQ would be to make a video like Heavyocity Aeon Tralier (showcase it's sound) and small sub sections in explaining the concept of Underscore (1-3 mins) long plus make it interesting and fun as well. 

In making a good walkthru video, probably consult Daniel James, Alex Pfeffer of someone in this forum who is good at it to help out.


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## Vlzmusic (Jun 4, 2013)

May I take a wild guess its a study of some sort ? 

On sales... behavior.... or else??


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## Ed (Jun 4, 2013)

The arpeggiator is pretty nice and detailed, but again, $1000 for this? Even without Tax its just too much, not unless it had one helleva core library.

I agree with others, these videos arent that fun to watch. It doesnt capture my attention like Heavocity are good at doing. Marketing is about making people go oooh!! ahhhh!! Most of these videos contain more talking than sound, which wouldnt be so bad except these are meant to be marketing videos not video manuals (as someone else said)


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## mk282 (Jun 4, 2013)

This defintely doesn't justify its price from what I've seen so far...


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## Tatu (Jun 4, 2013)

Seriously.. seems like there's nothing left from that stuff we heard on the announcement video? That last one just sounded empty and bad.

I don't know wether I should cry or laugh.. and I'm sorry for being so negative as it seems like you're a young guy with ambition and some real badass skills in kontakt scripting.


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## Andrew Aversa (Jun 4, 2013)

It seems like the goal here is the kind of workflow and sound design akin to a workstation keyboard, albeit with more depth and better sounds. With something like a Motif you have a lot of instant gratification and many possibilities from, in some cases, mere megabytes of material. Whereas with Underscore there is apparently quite a bit more than that. Omnisphere has a somewhat similar approach as well but of course is lacking in sample import.

Brent, it's true what you said that there are other synths with sample import. But Kontakt is an extremely advanced sampler compared to your average synth's sample-playback and mapping capabilities, and it also has the best DFD engine and CPU efficiency in the business. So, the comparison is not exactly 1:1. I'd also say that most popular synths - Zebra2, Massive, FM8, Sylenth1, Tone2 Gladiator, etc. - do not have the kind of phrase / sequencer engines that this product does. 

Just my 2 cents. Also, I'm eagerly awaiting more audio demos as much as anyone else!


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## koolkeys (Jun 4, 2013)

zircon_st @ Tue Jun 04 said:


> It seems like the goal here is the kind of workflow and sound design akin to a workstation keyboard, albeit with more depth and better sounds. With something like a Motif you have a lot of instant gratification and many possibilities from, in some cases, mere megabytes of material. Whereas with Underscore there is apparently quite a bit more than that. Omnisphere has a somewhat similar approach as well but of course is lacking in sample import.
> 
> Brent, it's true what you said that there are other synths with sample import. But Kontakt is an extremely advanced sampler compared to your average synth's sample-playback and mapping capabilities, and it also has the best DFD engine and CPU efficiency in the business. So, the comparison is not exactly 1:1. I'd also say that most popular synths - Zebra2, Massive, FM8, Sylenth1, Tone2 Gladiator, etc. - do not have the kind of phrase / sequencer engines that this product does.
> 
> Just my 2 cents. Also, I'm eagerly awaiting more audio demos as much as anyone else!


You may very well be right. I guess it's just underwhelming so far, and the price has a lot to do with that. I think if he would have came out with a pricetag of around $300, people wouldn't be so harsh. And he hasn't actually answered the question of what kind of sample content is included, which makes a big difference.

I agree that Kontakt is a whole other beast compared to synths. My point was that the sounds being made in the videos so far aren't revolutionary. 

It's not that I think the engine he has created isn't powerful. As I mentioned first and foremost, I think it DOES look powerful. I think it has lots of potential. I just think that for the price they are charging, it doesn't offer what it should.

I'm very much prepared to eat my words, and I wouldn't be surprised in the least if this came out and blew people away and I had to backtrack. I only wanted to be honest with the developer as I think anyone who has put time into something deserves the truth from potential customers, right?

Brent


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## MacQ (Jun 4, 2013)

Hey guys ... here's a quick live demo for you demonstrating the use of a single patch in _UNDERSCORE_

https://vimeo.com/67705930


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 4, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ will be here, June 7th!! FluidPhrase Engine video added!!*

OK... like most here I can't really see this being as revolutionary as suggested in the pre-release info and asking price. Just seen the video above - nice enough, but (again) nothing I really can't do already. Still not feeling the value which you clearly believe it is worth. You said "challenge accepted" when asked to demonstrate just what a great tool it is, and thus far it seems for most of us we've yet to hear / see it.

But enough negativity, how to move this forward? Here's a challenge of my own. Let's see you score from scratch, say, a 3 minute film / scene from a blank project to final mix in real time, using every inspirational tool Underscore has in the box. And put the clock on it - score a 3 minute film in 20 minutes flat. THAT sounds fun! No cheating, mind. It might be a technical challenge so it could take a while - it would be great to have a real short film or scene with dialogue ideally to get the right context - maybe a filmmaker friend / someone in the indie community could help you out with a demo scene or two? Then we could do with a camera on the keyboard / midi controllers too, and split screen with the main display.

Maybe if we can get some idea of it being as quick and inspirational _in context_ as you suggest it is, maybe it will turn the perception around?


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## organix (Jun 5, 2013)

MacQ @ 3rd June said:


> Just a quick clarification on the price, it was originally announced at "around $1000", and at $850 + tax, it comes to "around $1000".
> 
> The v1.0 release of _UNDERSCORE_ includes 200 instruments. Additional free updates are scheduled, which will include feature enhancements and new patches and multis exploring the depth of what _UNDERSCORE_ can do.



This sounds to me, that content and size of the lib and future support justifies the price tag?
I don't think it's very clever to set the number of instruments in relation to the price.

For example, Heavyocity AEON Collection comes with over 700 patches and 10000 samples for $399, that reads much more content for significantly lower price as _Underscore_.

You start your company with a maybe good product with a higher price tag as your competitors. I hope that every buyer will be extremly satisfied with the product, but if not they maybe will never buy anything from you. And such an expensive product requirements are also very high.

Sometimes it's better to start with cheaper product and to surprise the customers with a very good price performance ratio. 
For example, Embertone releases some very cheap but really good sample libs and thus got confidence by their customers. Now they can sell more expensive libs without any discussions about their reputations.

Maybe you'll think about a very cheap (no brainer) starter version of _Underscore_ with less content but same possibilites to give everyone the chance to do a good testdrive. That yould be a way to generate more buyers and to justify the price of _Underscore_. 

-Markus


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## Ed (Jun 5, 2013)

organix @ Wed Jun 05 said:


> You start your company with a maybe good product with a higher price tag as your competitors. I hope that every buyer will be extremly satisfied with the product, but if not they maybe will never buy anything from you. And such an expensive product requirements are also very high.



Also it will be much harder to get enthusiastic users which means less people selling the product and even defending it for you on message boards like this.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jun 5, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ will be here, June 7th!! FluidPhrase Engine video added!!*



Guy Rowland @ Tue Jun 04 said:


> OK... like most here I can't really see this being as revolutionary as suggested in the pre-release info and asking price. Just seen the video above - nice enough, but (again) nothing I really can't do already. Still not feeling the value which you clearly believe it is worth. You said "challenge accepted" when asked to demonstrate just what a great tool it is, and thus far it seems for most of us we've yet to hear / see it.
> 
> But enough negativity, how to move this forward? Here's a challenge of my own. Let's see you score from scratch, say, a 3 minute film / scene from a blank project to final mix in real time, using every inspirational tool Underscore has in the box. And put the clock on it - score a 3 minute film in 20 minutes flat. THAT sounds fun! No cheating, mind. It might be a technical challenge so it could take a while - it would be great to have a real short film or scene with dialogue ideally to get the right context - maybe a filmmaker friend / someone in the indie community could help you out with a demo scene or two? Then we could do with a camera on the keyboard / midi controllers too, and split screen with the main display.
> 
> Maybe if we can get some idea of it being as quick and inspirational _in context_ as you suggest it is, maybe it will turn the perception around?




I believe from Stu's original posting that he is already doing cues very quickly, that is the point of the "Underscore".


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 5, 2013)

Indeed Craig - so we just gotta see it in that context, in the heat of battle.


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## woodsdenis (Jun 5, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ will be here, June 7th!! FluidPhrase Engine video added!!*

Still waiting on info on the actual size of the library (not the amount of presets)


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## lucky909091 (Jun 5, 2013)

Markus did not really get it. It is not a point of "selling most pieces in a short time" or "getting the trust of the customers". 
The developer seems to have another philosophy.

He doesn´t care about the selled pieces because he did not develop this solely for the money.

It seems to be his conviction that this product is worth the 850 dollars and he is not thinking commercially.

So I am curious how long this product will be on the market with this high price policy.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jun 5, 2013)

MacQ @ Tue Jun 04 said:


> Hey guys ... here's a quick live demo for you demonstrating the use of a single patch in _UNDERSCORE_
> 
> https://vimeo.com/67705930



much better video

it is important to find inspiration and I start to see it here.

Say i wanted to use adagio shorts inside Underscore, is it easy to port 3rd party libs into "Underscore"?


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## Greg (Jun 5, 2013)

MacQ @ Tue Jun 04 said:


> Hey guys ... here's a quick live demo for you demonstrating the use of a single patch in _UNDERSCORE_
> 
> https://vimeo.com/67705930




:roll: This video scared me away from the library even more.. Much easier to write lines in midi and have full control without worrying about an arpeggiator, esp for short strings..


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## Ed (Jun 5, 2013)

Greg @ Wed Jun 05 said:


> :roll: This video scared me away from the library even more.. Much easier to write lines in midi and have full control without worrying about an arpeggiator, esp for short strings..



I wouldnt use it either, but for synth stuff it could be cool. At any rate others might like this feature on strings since they did seem to like the Ostinatum in Albion which I prefer to do manually as well. If this was a decent price it would be a great little library. Oh well, I have too much of these things anyway.


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## KingIdiot (Jun 5, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ will be here, June 7th!! FluidPhrase Engine video added!!*

jeez guys, we get it, it's not for you. 

it doesn't make it a terrible lib, some people like that shit. I mean we can all go one for days about a certain small orchestral lib and it's user base that absolutely loved it, while others loathed it. Move on, it's starting to feel like you're baiting him into trying to make something just for you to change your mind, and you're telling him how to run his business, through it.

Stu... dude, solid work on the programming man, and the effort to build something I haven't seen in a Kontakt lib before. Being able to import your own samples and have fun is going to be really cool for non tweaking guys and might give people a new workflow and inspiration. It's not gonna be for everyone, and I'm sure you know that.

good luck with it! Keep putting out more demo vids and music.


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## MacQ (Jun 5, 2013)

Hey guys ...

Some members of this forum have posted comments and questions about _UNDERSCORE_ in the past few weeks, and in preparation for our official release date on Friday June 7th, we wanted to be sure that those comments and questions were given a clear response.

*PRICE*

The price of _UNDERSCORE_ has been set at $850 US. This decision was the result of careful consideration, and we are satisfied that this is a fair price for the product on offer. Setting a price is the prerogative of the creator, not the market. While we agree that it is important to discuss price, the discussion on this forum has become fixated on the issue of price at the detriment of discussing _UNDERSCORE’S_ many features and utilities for its target market: media composers who are interested in rhythmic inspiration and more rapid cue composition and production. _UNDERSCORE’S_ value should not be determined by the price of other products on the market; it should be judged on its own merits. For those who purchase this library, we are confident that you will find _UNDERSCORE_ to be an invaluable tool. For those who believe that the price is too high – you are welcome to your opinion and you do not need to buy it. Further discussion about the price will likely continue, but rest assured, the price is set and will not change.


*SIZE*

When we began designing _UNDERSCORE_ in December 2011, size was one of our first considerations. We do not agree with the common practice of conflating a library’s sample-size with its value, as often this only encourages sample bloat and imprecise sample editing. We strive to distinguish ourselves from massive libraries which take up unnecessary space on user’s hard drives. In order to minimize our final product size, we carefully edited all samples to be as efficient as possible. We also consciously chose not to bombard users with thousands of patches. Instead, we carefully designed 200 patches, and taking advantage of the flexibility of the _UNDERSCORE_ workstation, users can take those 200 patches and transform them to create an infinite variety of sounds, each tailored specifically to the user’s needs. There are several libraries on the market which have earned a reputation of excellence without having a massive patch count. The total size of the uncompressed sample content in version 1.0 is under 600MB, and we feel strongly that it holds up in comparison to other libraries, regardless of size.


*USERS*

_UNDERSCORE_ was originally built with a specific user in mind - me. In bringing this product to market, we have stated that it is not a product intended for the mass market, and we are not interested in appealing to that market. This is a product that will best serve a specific type of user:

• those who are inspired by rhythm and enjoy improvisation at the keyboard
• those who want flexibility in their sounds which cannot be achieved by loops
• those who work in media composition and have tight deadlines
• those who are asked to create fleshed out cues or demos live from the keyboard, like in spotting sessions
• those who are willing to invest in efficiency so that they have more time to develop their musical ideas

As no product can be all things to all people, _UNDERSCORE_ is not for all members of this forum. It is not a product for:

• those who are happy with their current production methods
• those who are not inspired by rhythm
• those who exclusively program their music in a piano-roll, rather than playing them from the keyboard
• those who evaluate libraries based on price rather than application

We are convinced of _UNDERSCORE’S_ value. Those who have used it are similarly convinced. However, it is not our objective to be widely adopted – our aim is in serving a specific subset of professional composers.


*COMPARISONS*

There have been a number of comparisons made between _UNDERSCORE_ and Omnisphere, and of course, as ours is a new product, the motivation behind this is understandable. A frame of reference is always helpful for consumers. However, while there are some similarities between _UNDERSCORE_ and Omnisphere, we do not think that the comparison is particularly accurate. Below is a brief breakdown of the similarities, and differences, behind these products.

Similarities

• both libraries offer users sounds which are "designed" but not hyper-real
• both libraries are workstations which offer users a great number of sound shaping tools

Differences

•_UNDERSCORE_ is NOT a synthesizer
•_UNDERSCORE_ allows users to import and create patches with external samples (it's built in a sampler)
•_UNDERSCORE’S_ sounds (except for percussion and FX) are tonal, and tailored for a specific use
•_UNDERSCORE'S_ sounds contain no baked-in harmonic elements, and no avant-garde sampling techniques or ambient atonal sound-scapes
• _UNDERSCORE_ is specifically focused on rhythmic performance, allowing users to generate rhythm and harmony at the same time (like you can with a guitar)
• _UNDERSCORE_ has a polyphonic, key-triggered step sequencer rather than a programmable arpeggiator, which gives users the option of poly-retriggered playback, which makes pre-programmed sequences much more dynamic and changeable

We would suggest that a better frame of reference for _UNDERSCORE_ is found in Symphobia, the ubiquitous Kontakt library released by ProjectSam. When Symphobia was first released, it carried a price tag of $1200, and now retails for $999, which is comparable to _UNDERSCORE’S_ price tag of $850.

Similarities

• both libraries place an emphasis on user inspiration
• both share a similar attention to quick workflow and ease of use 
• both libraries contain patches designed for a specific purpose 
• both libraries contain a similar number of patches, although Symphobia concentrates exclusively on orchestral tones, and _UNDERSCORE_ is focused on hybrid-acoustic synthesized sounds
• like Symphobia’s multis, _UNDERSCORE'S_ patches themselves offer layered sonic interest, and when multiple patches are ganged to a single MIDI channel, can allow users to generate and iterate their musical ideas in a "fully produced" context - very useful in front of your clients

Some have commented that _UNDERSCORE_ does not achieve anything that cannot be achieved using other products, and so long as only the end results are being compared, this is true. However, _UNDERSCORE_ is a product that uses rhythmic patches to inspire melodic creativity. It spurs efficiency through drawable rhythms and envelopes, and easy access to important controls on the interface. It was created to enable rapid cue creation, allow flexible and easy sound design, and facilitate the user’s creative process by supporting musical experimentation. In each of these objectives, it succeeds.

I hope this clarifies some of the concerns that have been raised and ends the debate over price, which is really a personal decision for each user, and should not be the sole basis of any product evaluation. As always, I welcome comments. More videos are on the way!

Cheers,

~Stu


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## MacQ (Jun 5, 2013)

Craig Sharmat @ Wed Jun 05 said:


> Say i wanted to use adagio shorts inside Underscore, is it easy to port 3rd party libs into "Underscore"?



As far as putting Adagio's sample content into _UNDERSCORE_, that isn't supported. However, we have built a feature into _UNDERSCORE_ called "Output MIDI Notes". This bypasses the sound engine, and exclusively outputs the generated MIDI notes from the FPE, which you can then route in your sequencer to your Adagio instance, or use it to record the MIDI directly to a MIDI channel in your DAW. But this feature doesn't work in ProTools, which is a Kontakt limitation.

Thanks for the question ... it's a feature I wanted as well.


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## MacQ (Jun 5, 2013)

_UNDERSCORE_ Video Blog Episode 02: https://vimeo.com/67786294

_UNDERSCORE_ Video Blog Episode 03: https://vimeo.com/67786295

_UNDERSCORE_ Video Blog Episode 04: https://vimeo.com/67786296

A few more episodes of the informal "_UNDERSCORE_ Video Blog", covering some more of the Fast Food Orchestra, guitars, and synth material, respectively. If you want to see more detail or anything specific, I'm happy to cover that in a future episode.

Thanks!


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 6, 2013)

MacQ @ Thu Jun 06 said:


> More videos are on the way!



(forgive the snip)

To me, what is even clearer from your post than before is that the things that excite you and provide the value you've determined for the product, are not readily apparent to many here, whom you would assume might include your core market.

I don't think there's any shortcut here, Stu - I think you've got to rethink how you are demonstrating this exciting new tool. It's not worth me posting here again after this one without a specific response, but imo that means we gotta see it IN CONTEXT. A real time, 20 minute video showing you score a 3 minute scene or short from scratch would provide that context - a split screen between keyboard / midi controller and computer screen. You could even make an event of it. You say you designed the product for a specific user - you. That's great I'm sure... the least the rest of us can ask for is seeing how you use it in the real world.


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## G.R. Baumann (Jun 6, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ will be here, June 7th!! 3 new videos!!*

Stu,

looking at video blog 1, I assume that this is not a Kontakt library that appears in the list as Symphobia does, but rather has to be chosen via the file menu. 

Would that be correct?

On price:

You are wrong. 

The market will determine your price!

This is basic business knowledge, and known as the demand curve amongst other factors such as skill level, experience and track record (where is your's? This is your first product offering!) and industry standards who determine the price. 

Failure to determine the right price brought people out of business quicker than I can type this here. 

Claiming this to be a niche product is also wrong, in many ways. 

However, as I said earlier, I already made up my mind and I leave this thread now, I and others already posted multiple times what needed to be said. There is nothing I can contribute any further to help you out.

The market will decide!

All my best for your launch. I mean it!

Georg

P.S.
Attempting to stand on the shoulders of giants (Symphobia) can turn out to be a fatal exercise!


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## woodsdenis (Jun 6, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ will be here, June 7th!! 3 new videos!!*

Stu this will be my last post on this subject too, there are a few glaring things that struck me in you long and detailed post 

Underscore is so similar to Omnisphere/Alchemy in so many ways, as many here have pointed out no matter what you believe . Saying it is more akin to Symphobia is just daft and only used to make a price comparison point. Symphobia justifies its price on the cost of putting the library together, and more importantly to the user who doesn't have to hire an orchestra to achieve what the library can do.

Under 600MB of content, this is to put it mildly, crazy. I will again compare this to Omnisphere which uses samples. It has 50gb of content. Underscore has 1% of Omnispheres content at double the price !! I use this as an example to counter your point about sample bloat, I am sure that Spectrasonics do trim their samples correctly. If you don't think so please say so.

Also what would make your phrase engine really shine is really good content, from what I have heard its ok. Certainly not terrible but nothing wow.

Either way I admire your conviction and enthusiasm for your product against a less than positive response on this thread. I sincerely hope you have success with it.


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## mark812 (Jun 6, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ will be here, June 7th!! 3 new videos!!*

I'm sorry to say, but I really don't see how it's worth $850. I think that it's more comparable to Evolve than Omnisphere. Also, comparing a 600 mb synth library with a full orchestral library is kinda pointless. 

For $200 you can get Alchemy which offers great sound design possibilities and sample import.

Anyway, good luck with sales. :wink:


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## shakuman (Jun 6, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ will be here, June 7th!! 3 new videos!!*



G.R. Baumann @ Thu Jun 06 said:


> However, as I said earlier, I already made up my mind and I leave this thread now, I and others already posted multiple times what needed to be said. There is nothing I can contribute any further to help you out.
> 
> The market will decide!
> 
> ...



+1.. ~o)


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## Luca Capozzi (Jun 6, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ will be here, June 7th!! 3 new videos!!*

As I can see, he's selling a tool rather than a sample library.


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## R. Soul (Jun 6, 2013)

I guess Stu plans to sell 10-20 copies of it to huge A list composers who'd happily shell out $1000 for something that no one else has. After all $20.000 is not bad considering it's only paying for 1 guy who didn't have expenses like live players etc. so it's virtually all profit, apart from the hours he's put into it.


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## organix (Jun 6, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ will be here, June 7th!! 3 new videos!!*

With every demo this tool become more uninteresting to me.

Btw, I'm someone with sometimes short deadlines and I like quick and rapid composing.

It's not because of the price, it's the usability and the sound quality. The gui seems to me too much fiddly and time consuming to work in specific direction with clear ideas in mind. Maybe it's fine to work in a random way to click here and there and with luck you get something nice.

_Underscore_ isn't a synthesizer, right. But it sounds like one. 

And btw, Underscore isn't comparable in any way with Symphobia. That both sounds complete different. What you pay for Symphobia is that amazing and realistic sound quality. You wrote the similiaries between Symphobia and _UNDERSCORE_, but you've forgot all important differences. 

It's better not to do any more comparisions. Best we judge _UNDERSCORE_ by its own and everyone can make the decision to buy.

The problem is, that sometimes it's not easy to judge the possibillities, the usability and sound quality only by manufacture demo and videos. Investment in this price range are considered more accurate and need more convincing.

Good luck.

-Markus


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## Ed (Jun 6, 2013)

Symphobia's cost is justified because of how expensive it is to record an orchestra.

If its a "private library", that is being made available to the public for those prepared to pay, but not to really make serious money, justifying the high cost, thats fine and I get it. But as an actual product based on this business it makes no sense. There's so many reasons why the price tag is a bad idea. The main one is that people are going to be way more critical of it, less customers are going to be around on forums because far less will buy it, and those that do will be more critical they are far less likely to say nice things about it. A massive part of the marketing in this business is really word of mouth it seems, on forums like this.


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## lucky909091 (Jun 6, 2013)

I agree to all of your opinions (see my last posts).

But now, here comes a completely different point of view because I had some adventures with my customers, and I think I understand what Stu wants to say :

1.

I think that Stu wants to be unique with his product. His library was primarily made for himself - not to make money.

So every customer paying 850 dollars is welcome, but the other interested customers do not need to buy it.

Stu has a good job as a composer and does not need the additionally income. The market is no argument and not really interesting for him.

That is what I have read between the lines within this thread.

2.

Stu wanted to develop a library for live demonstrating purposes for the all-day customers. 

He mentioned the "spotting sessions" where a customer is sitting right beside you and wants to hear some inspiring ideas from you.

In this case, all of us know that it is not possible to play track by track into the sequencer to persuade the director or producer. 

A director does not have the patience to lesson how you stack track on track in your sequenzer.
He needs the complete audio track to imagine your musical idea of the soundtrack.

When you can play a rhythmic line with the left hand and play a melodic line wih the right hand your director can imagine a little bit what you want to do with your sooundtrack for his film.

In this case the Omnisphere does not really compete against Underscore.

Everything you hear is coming out of one single MIDI track just to satisfy your customer in the first meeting and to give you a quick inspiration for the soundtrack.

This seems to be the demand of Stu (don´t know if he is using the "Underscore" in his final soundtrack...)


And now my own practical experiences:

when I am under pressure and I need a fast inspiration for a very quick layout for a customer I firstly grab to my very impressive VSTs like Omnisphere, Nexus etc. to persuade the customer.

In this case I can imagine a VST like Underscore to make the job a bit easier. 

Left hand plays a sequence and right hand develops a quick melody. Is this the concept behind this VST?

And here comes my opinion about the pricing:
Stu, I have to disappoint you: 

I would never pay 850 for it. 
I find 300 dollars an appropriate amount and every professional composer would say "yes" if he could facilitate his work with your tool.

But in this case it seems really too much money because a composer "under pressure" can achieve his aim with other instruments in the same time. 


And yes:
I know that you do not want any more discussion about the pricing.


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## koolkeys (Jun 6, 2013)

Ed @ Thu Jun 06 said:


> Symphobia's cost is justified because of how expensive it is to record an orchestra


Yeah, outside of approximately the same price range, there is NOTHING similar between Symphobia and _Underscore_. 

There is far more similar to tools like AEON and Omnisphere, but the dev seems to want to get away from those comparisons because the argument won't hold up well against those. 

And the whole thing about not wanting to "bombard" users with thousands of patches, and wanting to distinguish yourself from those who promote "sample bloat", etc..........are you suggesting that people don't like what Omnisphere provides? Last I checked, users prefer and love the constant updates, the extremely good library(a library which is VERY well edited, and not just there for "bloat"), and most everything else about Omnisphere. If it imported samples, there would be next to nothing to complain about with it really. 

Saying that you've created 200 really good patches and that they justify the price means that they had better be some pretty flippin' fantastic "blow your mind" type patches. And I hope you've just been hiding them from your videos, because so far, what's there is good, but not worth more than $4 each.

But whatever, it is what it is. Stu can do what he wants with his product, even when his target audience is telling him that it's not worth it. And every time he posts, it seems the description of his target audience changes because it seems that he so badly wants it to fit into a niche somewhere and be a "high end" premiere offering that only a unique subset of the professional composing population uses. But the things he describes happen to apply to MOST people here. I don't know why he continues to fail to see that.

Brent


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## Hannes_F (Jun 6, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ will be here, June 7th!! 3 new videos!!*

My impression from this thread is that those posters that argue a lot about the price point ... really want to have it. It rubs you that the price is higher than what you would like to spend but still you want it. No?


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## Ed (Jun 6, 2013)

koolkeys @ Thu Jun 06 said:


> There is far more similar to tools like AEON and Omnisphere, but the dev seems to want to get away from those comparisons because the argument won't hold up well against those.



Seems like the only difference is it can import samples and has a nice arpeggiator. 

He needs to also accept that this is a very easy product to copy. What happens if Omni has an update that lets you import your own sounds? 
What happens if someone just takes all his ideas in his UI, the FX and arpeggiator, allowing you to import your own sounds, and sells it for $50? Well then all you have left is the core library.



Hannes_F @ Thu Jun 06 said:


> My impression from this thread is that those posters that argue a lot about the price point ... really want to have it. It rubs you that the price is higher than what you would like to spend but still you want it. No?



If it was $150 or $200 I personally wouldnt buy it, because I dont need it and have too much of this stuff already, but at least it would make sense. People are posting negative comments because its such a weird situation. I mean defending the price by comparing it to Symphobia, just because Symphobia is at a similar price point, seems to showcase this pretty well.


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## mark812 (Jun 6, 2013)

Hannes_F @ Thu Jun 06 said:


> My impression from this thread is that those posters that argue a lot about the price point ... really want to have it. It rubs you that the price is higher than what you would like to spend but still you want it. No?



So you're basically saying that if you think that something is overpriced, it really means that you want to have it? Not sure I follow your logic.



Ed @ Thu Jun 06 said:


> If it was $150 or $200 I personally wouldnt buy it, because I dont need it and have too much of this stuff already, but at least it would make sense. People are posting negative comments because its such a weird situation. I mean defending the price by comparing it to Symphobia, just because Symphobia is at a similar price point, seems to showcase this pretty well.



+1


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## Echoes in the Attic (Jun 6, 2013)

Ed @ Thu Jun 06 said:


> Seems like the only difference is it can import samples and has a nice arpeggiator.
> 
> He needs to also accept that this is a very easy product to copy. What happens if Omni has an update that lets you import your own sounds?
> What happens if someone just takes all his ideas in his UI, the FX and arpeggiator, allowing you to import your own sounds, and sells it for $50? Well then all you have left is the core library.



Don't really need to imagine what if's. Alchemy is already a decent comparison but with an insane amount more to offer. For about 1/4 the price. 

I had advocated waiting until release to judge properly, however 200 presets and a fancy arp just can't ask for this kind of price in my opinion.

I think a general rule of thumb is that the number of megabytes of content plus the number of patches should be greater than the price in dollars.
Ie., #mb + #patches > Price


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## Hannes_F (Jun 6, 2013)

mark812 @ Thu Jun 06 said:


> Hannes_F @ Thu Jun 06 said:
> 
> 
> > My impression from this thread is that those posters that argue a lot about the price point ... really want to have it. It rubs you that the price is higher than what you would like to spend but still you want it. No?
> ...



Hmm ... yes it seems so.

For example I'm not very interested in what this tool does (don't take any offense please) and would therefore not argue about the price. If you do, it seems to be attracting you in the one or other way.


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## Greg (Jun 6, 2013)

Thanks for being direct with the last comments Stu. Explaining that it is only for a certain type of workflow and not all composers would find it useful clarified things.

I was hoping for it to be something more like Aeon and at first it seemed like it was pretending to be but you clarified that well, thanks! 

It's just not for me, I was only interested in cool and unique sounds to mangle.

Regardless, thanks so much for your time and efforts to create a this, it is very commendable to make these tools that help composers fulfill their dreams of creating great music. Best of luck!


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## koolkeys (Jun 6, 2013)

Hannes_F @ Thu Jun 06 said:


> mark812 @ Thu Jun 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Hannes_F @ Thu Jun 06 said:
> ...


Well, I'm sure that many people here are at least somewhat interested. And arguing the price is a fair thing to do because it's the market that decides what something is worth(despite what Stu claims above). People are just trying to tell him what they, his customers, are willing to pay for something like this. 

But on the other hand, this is a discussion forum. Libraries get announced, and people with different levels of interest chime in with their thoughts. In this case, the price is so ridiculously high for what you apparently get, that people are pointing out what I would have thought was already obvious.

But in addition to people interested, some people, myself included, post comments in an honest attempt to help developers out. I can't say that I would have bought it for $200 or not since I have yet to see the full details, but myself and others can tell him what we would NOT pay for it in hopes that he sees the light and realizes where he's going wrong.

Maybe we'll all be wrong and he'll get the few sales he apparently wants, and he'll become known as a boutique library developer that he seems to want to be known as, and all will be well. 

But at this point, it seems that he has overvalued his product in an attempt to appear more exclusive and ritzy than others. Like the guy who released a simple one band EQ a few years ago for $1000 because he wanted famous people to use it and he wanted it to be rated with the big name hardware EQs. Faulty logic. 

You can be exclusive and "boutique" and be $200. Making the price higher doesn't change the target market of a product. The same people interested at $1000 would be interested at $200, and the idea that making it more expensive will somehow CHANGE who is interested is just bogus. And don't change your target demographic each time somebody points out that they are IN the target audience and still think it's too high. The terms he is using to describe his target are very generic, and he has pretty much described everyone on this forum for the most part. But he still claims it's a niche product, and is trying to price it as a specialty product. But it is not.

If you want to make it exclusive, do as some library developers do and accept applications. Don't market it as a mainstream library. If you're going to make something available to the public, expect the public to respond, good or bad. 

Brent


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## organix (Jun 6, 2013)

Ed @ 6th June said:


> Seems like the only difference is it can import samples and has a nice arpeggiator.



AEON has very nice and powerful arpeggiators too. 
And aehm, Omnisphere also has an arpeggiator with some very nice functions. For example you can import midi files to the arpeggiator to achieve special grooves. http://vimeo.com/5740147

I just listened to the 4 video blogs of UNDERSCORE and all I hear are some rhythmic arp sequences that recalls me to something like Nexus. Nothing really special and not very inspiring. It sounds like a synthesizer. 
Maybe it's time to demonstrate some really special features and an example of a workflow that should help to compose quick and good sounding underscores.

If you want a library for quick composing and a big sound for nice spotting sessions with the producer, than take a look at ProjectSAM's Lumina. That Story-system in Lumina seems to me far more inspiring than any arpeggiator.

-Markus


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## Greg (Jun 6, 2013)

Hannes_F @ Thu Jun 06 said:


> My impression from this thread is that those posters that argue a lot about the price point ... really want to have it. It rubs you that the price is higher than what you would like to spend but still you want it. No?



Come on... we are attracted to EVERY potential library because we want nothing more than every library to be amazing and have great useful content that will help us write music. When libraries like this have potential but don't live up to what we thought it was or could be, then we start ranting on here.

We are the products target market, of course it attracts us... Then the price and details scare us away.


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## Mike Greene (Jun 6, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ will be here, June 7th!! 3 new videos!!*

I'm reluctant to get into this discussion, because I don't want to either defend or attack the $850 price point. Many good points have been made against it. But at the same time . . . 

When I announced Realivox, I got lots and lots of advice. Not about price necessarily, but all sorts of other things. I tried to incorporate almost all of this advice into what I did. I even created a few demos specifically for requests given. Demos that nail the requests, I might add.

What a waste of time. Turns out almost all of that advice came from people who, to this day, have not bought Realivox. I've sold a few hundred copies (which is pretty good for a sample library,) yet the vast majority are to people I've never heard of. And of the many people whose names I _do_ recognize, they were almost all people who _didn't_ post in my threads. Seriously, this was an eye opener.

Many of these people who gave me all this armchair advice are the same people as are in this thread. I don't mean any offense by that. (Okay, maybe I shouldn't have said "armchair advice." :mrgreen: ) Nor is it a dismissal of the opinions presented, because as I'm reading Brent's posts, for instance, I'm thinking, "Yep, he's absolutely right."

But . . . I can't help but notice that while Ed (just an example) is advising Stu about his pricing, he's admitting that he personally wouldn't pay even $150 for it. So . . . why should Stu care about Ed's opinion on pricing? Ed isn't his market. And even of the people posting who _are_ the market, I predict that even at $300, there would be a lot of _"I'm definitely gonna get this"_ inevitably followed by _" . . . as soon as I get a gig that needs it."_

That's not to say Ed or anyone else here is wrong about the price, by the way. In fact, I kinda think they may be right. But I do know from personal experience that the voices here are a tiny minority of who Stu's real customer base will be. So given that Stu has said the price ain't movin', I'm not interested in that debate anymore. Now I'm more interested in seeing how it actually works out. We'll probably never know, of course, because most developers are very secretive about their sales numbers. But it sure might be interesting.


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## lpuser (Jun 6, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ will be here, June 7th!! 3 new videos!!*



Mike Greene @ Thu Jun 06 said:


> I'm reluctant to get into this discussion <snip>



... but thanks for doing so, Mike. And thanks for your post. You have made some very valid points which from a sales perspective I can say are absolutely spot on.

My first hand experience dates back to when I was in the business of selling software: Our clients did complain a lot about the price point of a remote control product which we´ve marketed.

We did take every voice very serious and came to the conclusion that - based on the sheer number of requests for a cheaper product - they might all be right. As a result we have started to offer a much cheaper and technically speaking even better product at a price point about 60+% cheaper. It was essentially a no-brainer compared to the competition.

We invested big money, because - after listening to the constant complaints - we were sure that we could sell a ton of this product and get back our investments within a few months. Boy, have we been wrong!

Nearly nobody who did complain in the first place did bother to buy. On the contrary, they came back with: "Yeah, well... we would now buy the product if you could also add feature <insert-whatever-comes-to-your-mind>". So ... now that they could not complain about the price anymore, they complained about "missing features" which of course none of the competitors did have either. We again listened (which was big mistake no. 2) and enhanced development, but of course to no avail. You could count on that whenever we had something, they found another "excuse" for not being able to buy.

End of the story: The product was abandoned 2 years later with lots of money lost on all sides.

I am absolutely not saying that developers should not care about pricing, but reality is often is more complicated and in order to consider a change in pricing, there are people required who are actually going to buy at a lower price point. And I mean... really.

I do like affordable products and absolutely love Soundiron for selling their Olympus Elements at a great price point which made me get it right away, even though I was not in need of a choir at the moment. On the other hand, I did not buy Lumina although I had even postponed a project while waiting for its release. But when the price was out, I felt it was not right for me based on what I would actually use. However I would have bought it at a $400 price tag immediately.

Personally I wish Stu the best of luck with _UNDERSCORE_. And regardless of what we are thinking: Since Stu built it for himself in the first place, I am very certain that it will be invaluable for him. And that´s a good thing.

Cheers
Tom


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## jleckie (Jun 6, 2013)

Good lord people. Vote with your wallets already.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jun 6, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ will be here, June 7th!! 3 new videos!!*

polls open tomorrow


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## dpasdernick (Jun 6, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ will be here, June 7th!! 3 new videos!!*

For me to part with $850 on a single library the thing would have to be Omniphobia/HollyLASS/ALCHEMZEBRA/KOMPLETEKITCHENSINK...

I'm just too poor I guess. :(


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## MacQ (Jun 6, 2013)

_UNDERSCORE_ is now available at www.studioweapon.com!!

:-D


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## koolkeys (Jun 7, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is HERE!! www.studioweapon.com!!*

Could you change the "Videos" link on the website to something like "Media"? I was looking for audio examples and they are on that page, so I don't know if that will confuse anyone or not. Minor thing, but just pointing it out.

Brent


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## quantum7 (Jun 7, 2013)

Ok, I finally watched the videos- Stu, what would possess you to sell this for $850? You have a nice product and deserve to be paid for your hard work, but your product can do nothing that Omnisphere or Alchemy cannot already do at less than half your asking price. I know my opinion means nothing, but perhaps after you've heard similar opinions a couple hundred times you will rethink your sales strategy. I have been truly blessed in life being able to afford nearly any library I want to buy, but even if I had a million dollars sitting in a safe doing nothing would I spend $850 on something that the competition offers for less than half your asking price. 

Good luck, though.


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## germancomponist (Jun 7, 2013)

Oh what a thread..... . 

Maybe there are some demo makers, as always when a new lib comes...., and we can listen to the results of them?


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## Echoes in the Attic (Jun 7, 2013)

germancomponist @ Fri Jun 07 said:


> Oh what a thread..... .
> 
> Maybe there are some demo makers, as always when a new lib comes...., and we can listen to the results of them?



Unfortunately the price is likely out of most people's comfort range so it might be light on user demos. This price range is in the range of DEEP orchestral libraries, where musicians had to be paid for grueling sessions and a hall had to be rented for recording sessions, as well as mix engineers, time assembling tens of thousands of samples etc. Libraries that mostly focus on Kontakt scripting with a little sound design type sample content are usually under $200. I feel a bit bad for them, I hope they make enough sales to cover costs but I think pricing of 850 will be much less profitable. Best of luck!


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## KMuzzey (Jun 8, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is HERE!! www.studioweapon.com!!*

I've been following this chain & it's been a little sad to watch how mean it's gotten. If it's disheartening for me, joe composer, I can imagine it must feel pretty lousy for a developer. It's been 6 pages of dev-bashing when no one's actually tried the product yet.

I've watched the vids too, and I'm not completely sure of how I would implement a program like this because I can't wrap my head around exactly what it is or how it works. But my impulse would be to email the dev to say that this looks kinda cool but I don't really understand it: can you show a live workflow example or something hands-on. My impulse *wouldn't* be to start tearing the product to shreds in a public forum and sniping at everything about it that I don't understand. 

So as just-another-member here who enjoys the information exchange and loves seeing new product announcements, can I ask that people rein in the nastiness? I remember discovering this site a couple years ago and enjoying it because it was a much cooler, happier place to poke around than Northern Sounds. But some of these comments make me feel like this place could turn into that place. And that would suck.

Politeness costs nothing. 

o-[][]-o 

Kerry


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## NYC Composer (Jun 8, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is HERE!! www.studioweapon.com!!*



KMuzzey @ Sat Jun 08 said:


> I've been following this chain & it's been a little sad to watch how mean it's gotten. If it's disheartening for me, joe composer, I can imagine it must feel pretty lousy for a developer. It's been 6 pages of dev-bashing when no one's actually tried the product yet.
> 
> I've watched the vids too, and I'm not completely sure of how I would implement a program like this because I can't wrap my head around exactly what it is or how it works. But my impulse would be to email the dev to say that this looks kinda cool but I don't really understand it: can you show a live workflow example or something hands-on. My impulse *wouldn't* be to start tearing the product to shreds in a public forum and sniping at everything about it that I don't understand.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure about the NS worries, Kerry, but as to the rest, I said much the same earlier in this megathread.. It's certainly an odd thread. Some are genuinely trying to help, but there's a lot of piling on.


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## Echoes in the Attic (Jun 8, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is HERE!! www.studioweapon.com!!*



KMuzzey @ Sat Jun 08 said:


> I've been following this chain & it's been a little sad to watch how mean it's gotten. If it's disheartening for me, joe composer, I can imagine it must feel pretty lousy for a developer. It's been 6 pages of dev-bashing when no one's actually tried the product yet.
> 
> I've watched the vids too, and I'm not completely sure of how I would implement a program like this because I can't wrap my head around exactly what it is or how it works. But my impulse would be to email the dev to say that this looks kinda cool but I don't really understand it: can you show a live workflow example or something hands-on. My impulse *wouldn't* be to start tearing the product to shreds in a public forum and sniping at everything about it that I don't understand.
> 
> ...



Fair enough. Although I don't think anyone is bashing the product just being shocked at the price.

And I have to say the developer has stayed very positive despite the criticism of the price, so that's always a good sign. If it sells well then good on him. If not I'm sure he'll learn from it.


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## jleckie (Jun 8, 2013)

Lots of bullying goes on in forums no doubt. Hats off to the gent taking it. He is doing a swell job of maintaining a professional attitude.


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## Click Sky Fade (Jun 8, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is HERE!! www.studioweapon.com!!*

I too have followed this thread and I have to say, while i think this would be of great use to certain musicians it it remains out of my reach because of it's price. I believe $100 is too low for such a product but i can not help but wonder if, for example he lowered the price to $100 would it shift 10 times as many sales?


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## woodsdenis (Jun 8, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is HERE!! www.studioweapon.com!!*

"I'll be supporting Machfive. I'm only releasing on Kontakt 5 since my library is over a year in development and the scripting would take too long to port. I'll release one Kontakt 5 library, and then I'm done. There are significant limitations in Kontakt which go unheeded by the development team in Berlin, and I think their laissez-faire attitude to feature requests and bug reports is unprofessional and downright frustrating. 

Also, the built-in FX are terrible, and there's no excuse for that these days, especially not when Guitar Rig exists in their catalogue. 

Kontakt rose to dominate on the back of KSP scripting, and the LUA scripting in Machfive 3 finally competes with -- and even exceeds in some cases -- the complexity possible in Kontakt. 

And did I mention the FX suck? Haha."

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3667119

The above quote and link is from Stu the developer of Underscore about Underscore , on this very forum, it was mentioned on page 2 of this thread. In my opinion any developer charging $850 plus tax for a product on a platform he admits is less than stellar and whose FX are terrible, deserves to be questioned thoroughly about the robustness and future support of his product. 

I certainly don't think this is harsh to question him about this, and I do commend him for answering the questions put to him in a civil and polite manner. I have made up my mind based on his videos and responses.

I do wish him well with the product.


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## karmacomposer (Jun 8, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is HERE!! www.studioweapon.com!!*

To me, the price seems to be a weed out choice. Only those that can afford it will buy it.

TBH, it sounds really, really good, but I expected more from the preset demo.

Video production is stellar, by the way.

Mike


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## choc0thrax (Jun 8, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is HERE!! www.studioweapon.com!!*

:idea: 

A tip from a concerned bystander: when choosing to cry yourself to sleep over the price of a library, remember to sleep on your side in the fetal position to avoid choking to death on your tears. Another useful tip is to reevaluate your life upon successfully waking.


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## mpalenik (Jun 9, 2013)

*Re: _UNDERSCORE_ is HERE!! www.studioweapon.com!!*



woodsdenis @ Sat Jun 08 said:


> http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3667119
> 
> The above quote and link is from Stu the developer of Underscore about Underscore



While that quote makes me think he had some difficulties working with Kontakt, it also makes it sound like he worked hard on a script to overcome some of those difficulties. It is possible to make a good script for a buggy, limited program, if you work hard and are creative, so I wouldn't hold most of that against him. The built in effects are kind of an insurmountable limitation, so perhaps there's some validity to questioning the products on those limitations (although I'm not as convinced that the built in effects are as terrible as everyone seems to think).

I'm not a professional, so I'll admit I don't see the value that I'm sure is present in this product, peoples complaints about the price seem entirely reasonable to me, and I'm not sure why Stu didn't decide to lower it before releasing, but this particular thing doesn't seem like a good reason for criticism, IMO.


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## MacQ (Jun 10, 2013)

Hey guys ...

I've got an important announcement about _UNDERSCORE_ that I'm sure you'll be interested in:

https://vimeo.com/68029658

As always, I appreciate your comments and responses! 

Cheers,

~Stu


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## woodsdenis (Jun 10, 2013)

MacQ @ Mon Jun 10 said:


> Hey guys ...
> 
> I've got an important announcement about _UNDERSCORE_ that I'm sure you'll be interested in:
> 
> ...



I admire you for doing this Stu, fair play.


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## TheUnfinished (Jun 10, 2013)

You'll probably have an equal number of people thinking you're 'weak' and you're 'strong' in making this decision. But the main thing is that you're happy with your decision.

You look happy anyway.

Though maybe that's because you have such incredible skin.

That's what all this has been about really, I reckon. All the gnarly-skinned composers, whose endless days without sunlight has turned their outsides into a translucent husk have been thinking: "Damn his beautiful skin! Get him!"

Okay, I need a coffee, I think.


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## jleckie (Jun 10, 2013)

THATS what they call "High Cotton".

Way to go Stu. (tipping hat in your direction.)


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## NYC Composer (Jun 10, 2013)

Smart choice and great attitude. Cheers.


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## Parisonic (Jun 10, 2013)

I'm impressed with your approach to this as I have been following the thread since it started , I so don't need this , but I now feel the need to support  Wish you the best of luck .

P.


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## lucky909091 (Jun 10, 2013)

Seems that I was wrong when I thought the developer does not need the money, he did this thing for himself.
Someone here said that the market will decide the price and so it seems.


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## marcotronic (Jun 10, 2013)

Great choice! Congrats. Also the money-back guarantee is very generous!

Think I'm gonna give this baby a try as soon as I can afford it.

Marco


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## G.R. Baumann (Jun 10, 2013)

Stu,


1.
there is no legal information such as terms and conditions, license agreement, privacy policy etc. on your website

2.
as of now....there is no mentioning of the 60 day money back on your website either


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 10, 2013)

Very smart decision, Stu! You're proving yourself to be a fast learner, and I predict a very rosy future for your company. In fact, in your videos, you kind of remind me of a younger version of someone in LA who has had Spectracular success in our little world. :wink:


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 10, 2013)

Ballsy move, way to go for it Stu.

Your sincerity comes through.


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## karmacomposer (Jun 10, 2013)

Due to the price decrease - good firefighting there- I will now check this out and see if I need it. 

Good luck with your baby ... I mean product.

Mike


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 10, 2013)

I just watched the FluidPhrase Engine walkthrough. Interestingly, it works similarly to Logic Pro's Ultrabeat in the way it works, is programmed, and triggered so I think I would get fluid with it quickly.

The problem for me is (unless I am not understanding, Stu) is that you are essentially "hard" quantizing (100%) and I virtually never hard quantize as it sounds mechanical and inhuman and except for genres like techno or trance, I don't want that.. In Logic, I always use the Advanced Quantization Parameters for Q-Strength, Q-Range, etc.

With Ultrabeat, after I have used the sequencing, I have hard quantized MIDI notes but I can use Logic's Humanize Transformer to make it less so, but since the FPE is only recording trigger notes (correct?) I would not be able to do this.

So for me, I would hardly ever use it, but Stu, if my conclusions are wrong and there IS an after the fact way to humanize what is designed in the FPE, let us know.


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## dpasdernick (Jun 10, 2013)

Stu,

I respect the heck out of you for that video. I'm sure it was a difficult decision. Well done. I wish you the very best with _Underscore_

Sincerely,

Darren


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## Tatu (Jun 10, 2013)

Well done, Stu!

Just remember; being humble about these sort of things doesn't mean you should do humble products in the future!

Best of luck to all your future endeavors!


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## rayinstirling (Jun 10, 2013)

Stu,
I've been following this thread an chuckling. From one salesman to another may I say, you've done a masterful job :wink:


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## koolkeys (Jun 10, 2013)

Stu, I've been extremely vocal in this thread, and I hope you know that it was sincerely to help. So I do apologize if anything came across as intentionally bashing or trying to hinder your success.

With that being said, dropping the price is a fantastic move for you. Honestly, you've now priced it where I think it's probably just right. And it took quite a bit of pride-swallowing I'm sure to be able to do this. So great job, and honestly, I don't have any other complaints with the product. It's priced where it belongs, even though it's VALUE may be higher to those who use it. 

I genuinely wish you the best of luck with sales. You've taken all our heat with plenty of dignity, though you probably didn't have to. I can't say yet whether I will or will not buy(second baby on the way, gotta think about these decisions for a while), but I will remain interested and I'll keep an eye out for opinions and reviews and hopefully get a chance to see what it is that you see in the product some day.

Good luck, and once again, I commend you.

Brent


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## zvenx (Jun 10, 2013)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Jun 10 said:


> Very smart decision, Stu! You're proving yourself to be a fast learner, and I predict a very rosy future for your company. In fact, in your videos, you kind of remind me of a younger version of someone in LA who has had Spectracular success in our little world. :wink:



Now that you mention it he does...........Although isn't he in Burbank now 

Kudos for this. I do think the $249 will make lots of ppl who werent interested at $850 interested.......I am certainly one of them.

good luck
rsp


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## schatzus (Jun 10, 2013)

Stay Classy Stu!


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## MacQ (Jun 10, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jun 10 said:


> The problem for me is (unless I am not understanding, Stu) is that you are essentially "hard" quantizing (100%) and I virtually never hard quantize as it sounds mechanical and inhuman and except for genres like techno or trance, I don't want that.. In Logic, I always use the Advanced Quantization Parameters for Q-Strength, Q-Range, etc.
> 
> With Ultrabeat, after I have used the sequencing, I have hard quantized MIDI notes but I can use Logic's Humanize Transformer to make it less so, but since the FPE is only recording trigger notes (correct?) I would not be able to do this.
> 
> So for me, I would hardly ever use it, but Stu, if my conclusions are wrong and there IS an after the fact way to humanize what is designed in the FPE, let us know.



Hi Jay ... first, the sequenced MIDI from the FPE can be given a random timing variability using the "Sequencer Slop" feature on the Global Settings page. Additionally, each layer of each instrument has variable onset delay and onset randomization. Also, you can use the "Output MIDI Notes" feature to bypass the sound engine and send MIDI from the FPE sequencer out to Logic. If you record a MIDI track from the Kontakt MIDI output (making sure you have "Send MIDI to outside world" enabled inside Kontakt itself), you'll have the identical MIDI now "printed" for your further editing.

The utility that you're suggesting was important for me to include in _UNDERSCORE_, so thanks for raising this point.

Cheers,


~Stu


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 10, 2013)

MacQ @ Mon Jun 10 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jun 10 said:
> 
> 
> > The problem for me is (unless I am not understanding, Stu) is that you are essentially "hard" quantizing (100%) and I virtually never hard quantize as it sounds mechanical and inhuman and except for genres like techno or trance, I don't want that.. In Logic, I always use the Advanced Quantization Parameters for Q-Strength, Q-Range, etc.
> ...



Great, Stu!


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## MacQ (Jun 10, 2013)

I wake up this morning to find myself surrounded by a community of supportive composers who are rooting for me, and that is an unbelievable feeling. I guess my genuine love came across in the video. Also, my beautiful skin. (Hahaha ... I howled laughing at that comment!!)

Thank you again for your unbridled honesty. As I said in the video, the most important thing to me is this dialogue. For those of you who will purchase _UNDERSCORE_, I encourage you to let me know your honest opinions, because I only want to make this product the best it can possibly be. 

Also, I'm super flattered by the EP reference! I've long thought we shared a certain similarity: smiley guys with big heads who genuinely love what they do! Thanks for making my day. 

Cheers,

~Stu


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## Craig Sharmat (Jun 10, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jun 10 said:


> MacQ @ Mon Jun 10 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jun 10 said:
> ...



I believe I would like to see a vid on this or some tutorial. This is the way to get 3rd party sounds triggered by "Underscore"?


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## Maestro77 (Jun 10, 2013)

Stu, I've also been silently watching this thread and hoping you'd do exactly what you did. GREAT move. Major respect for listening to the community and best of luck with this and future products!


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## paulmatthew (Jun 10, 2013)

+1 and I will probably give this product a better look now.


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## RasmusFors (Jun 10, 2013)

Stu just became the coolest sample dev on vi control =o


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## Brobdingnagian (Jun 10, 2013)

Wow. Humility and passion. Absolutely fantastic move. Your infectious enthusiasm makes me WANT to explore Underscore. Sold.


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## 667 (Jun 10, 2013)

Money back guarantee is pretty unusual with sample based products and so pretty compelling to give this a try now. Will definitely check out the vids to get a better feel for underscore as creative tool / idea generator.


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## benmrx (Jun 10, 2013)

Stu, you are either the most ingenious marketing strategist or a super humble, honest guy. Either way, you've now got this whole forum in the palm of your hand. 

I really can't wait to read/hear some user reviews/demos!!


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 10, 2013)

_The bamboo that bends is stronger than the oak that resists._

Japanese proverb.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 10, 2013)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Jun 10 said:


> _The bamboo that bends is stronger than the oak that resists._
> 
> Japanese proverb.



_Even the willow must bow before the wind.
_
Japanese haiku


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## MacQ (Jun 10, 2013)

_Haikus are easy
But sometimes they don't make sense
Refrigerator_


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## G.R. Baumann (Jun 10, 2013)

According to this StudioWeapon Product Guarantee, *now* appearing below the BUY button:

http://www.studioweapon.com/img/products/StudioWeapon%20Product%20Guarantee.pdf

You make it mandatory to participate in a survey, by your own words:


> This refund will take the same form as the payment initially rendered.
> Customers who seek a refund must agree to complete the following tasks:
> 1. Complete our product survey regarding their experience with _UNDERSCORE_



I would like to point out that it is highly questionable from a legal perspective whether you can make such mandatory requirement for a refund policy! 

I request to post the text of this survey, for everyone to see, so the decision making process by potential customers to buy a product with a *conditional *60 days money back guarantee is transparent. 

Thank you.

As for 2. and 3.



> 2. Provide written guarantee that they will cease using _UNDERSCORE_
> 3. Delete all downloaded and archived _UNDERSCORE_ product files
> Once these tasks have been completed and documentation has been received, repayment



this is reasonable.


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## koolkeys (Jun 10, 2013)

G.R. Baumann @ Mon Jun 10 said:


> According to this StudioWeapon Product Guarantee, now appearing below the BUY button:
> 
> http://www.studioweapon.com/img/products/StudioWeapon%20Product%20Guarantee.pdf
> 
> ...


I think it's pretty clear that the survey is to find out what the customer didn't like about the product so there is usable info on what to improve. Legally questionable? If you agree to those terms when buying the product, there isn't a lawyer in the land who would waste their time arguing that. If you don't agree, then you don't buy. Simple.

I think some people read into things too much sometimes. I doubt that Stu would try to tie somebody's hands or trick them into something like this knowing that the user can easily come here and raise a fit about it, affecting sales. 

Of course, he could just not offer a money back guarantee, like 99% of other sample devs out there, right? I'm a little surprised that somebody would have a semantics problem with the money back guarantee.

Brent


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## G.R. Baumann (Jun 10, 2013)

koolkeys @ Mon Jun 10 said:


> I think some people read into things too much sometimes.



I do not suggest dishonesty here, I talk about policy transparency.


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## Ed (Jun 10, 2013)

Did Stu say a refund no questions asked? I think its only fair that you say why the product isnt for you, if you want to get a refund


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## koolkeys (Jun 10, 2013)

G.R. Baumann @ Mon Jun 10 said:


> koolkeys @ Mon Jun 10 said:
> 
> 
> > I think some people read into things too much sometimes.
> ...


What's not transparent? Suggesting that he isn't being transparent would mean he is somehow hiding something. But the official policy is very clear. You found it, didn't you? Was it really that hidden or not obvious? So it wouldn't be a surprise to you. He mentioned the survey in the announcement video, and it's stated in the official terms. Please, do tell me how he isn't being completely honest and transparent?

Every purchase you make has terms and conditions. It's the customer's responsibility to read them. This is just nit-picking, finding something to complain about. Maybe the policy isn't how you would prefer it, but that's the beauty of it: you don't have to buy and agree to it.

Brent


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## G.R. Baumann (Jun 10, 2013)

Ed @ Mon Jun 10 said:


> Did Stu say a refund no questions asked? I think its only fair that you say why the product isnt for you, if you want to get a refund



Well, it is a 60 days money back guarantee, as advertised, is it not?

On a general note, and to be very clear, as I said before, I am not suggesting dishonesty per se, so this is *not* specific to Stu, but to emphasize the importance: 

False guarantees are so bloody common that the FTC has addressed it (§ 239.1) et al.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2005-title16-vol1/pdf/CFR-2005-title16-vol1-sec239-2.pdf

However, I understand and acknowledge the general positive attitude of the forum members towards this change of his pricing policy, having said that, I do have major reservations, which I am entitled to as well.

I leave it at that.

pax tecum


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## koolkeys (Jun 10, 2013)

G.R. Baumann @ Mon Jun 10 said:


> Ed @ Mon Jun 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Did Stu say a refund no questions asked? I think its only fair that you say why the product isnt for you, if you want to get a refund
> ...


Sure, you're entitled to your reservations. But linking to the FTC document and using terms like "false guarantees" is very misleading because there is nothing false here. 

Money back guarantees aren't required to be no questions asked. And nothing is hidden here, or false. It's simple, if you want a refund, just fill out a questionaire and delete the stuff from your hard drive. You agree to it when you purchase. Nothing shady, completely transparent and honest, and nothing to do with the FTC concerns.

You are free to be worried about it and not agree to it, but trying to imply that there is anything funky going on or that he's not following some set of rules, is just silly, IMO.

Brent


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## G.R. Baumann (Jun 10, 2013)

ok Brent

I respect your opinion


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## koolkeys (Jun 10, 2013)

G.R. Baumann @ Mon Jun 10 said:


> ok Brent
> 
> I respect your opinion


Well thank you. And likewise. Please understand that I don't discount your right to have that opinion. I only disagree. 

Brent


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## G.R. Baumann (Jun 10, 2013)

koolkeys @ Mon Jun 10 said:


> G.R. Baumann @ Mon Jun 10 said:
> 
> 
> > ok Brent
> ...



No sweat.


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## EforEclectic (Jun 10, 2013)

Stu,

First off - it is obvious how much passion you have put into this library. The time investment towards polishing individual patches, writing manuals, developing and scripting the UI for a robust blank canvas as you did, plus recording demonstration videos is enormous.

You did a great thing moving into the dare-I-say 'reasonable' price bracket here. It is tantamount to a quality developer who is willing and able to work with and listen to his consumerbase. And for that alone, respect is deserved. I will purchase _UNDERSCORE_, and I hope it is able to provide me the inspiration that it so clearly brings to you in your work.

In short - Thanks. 

**A customer who would have been a lost sale at the old price point

**** When I press the "Buy Now" button, nothing happens. Help me out here!


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## MacQ (Jun 10, 2013)

EforEclectic @ Mon Jun 10 said:


> **** When I press the "Buy Now" button, nothing happens. Help me out here!



Thanks for the heads-up, and your for your kind comments. I cannot wait to hear what people think of it, so feel free to praise or flame me as necessary. =o 

I'll get my developer on this right away. Thanks again!

~Stu


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## quantum7 (Jun 10, 2013)

Great move, Stu! Your new price is spot on, I believe, for a new developer with a great product that wants to sell on lot of copies of it. I also have a lot of respect for you in making the video to explain your thought process in all of this....and the money back guarantee. I sincerely hope that you are paid back for all your hard work on your library with lots and lots of sales.


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## mk282 (Jun 11, 2013)

Craig Sharmat @ 10.6.2013 said:


> I believe I would like to see a vid on this or some tutorial. This is the way to get 3rd party sounds triggered by "Underscore"?



You can do it with any scripted arpeggiator or sequencer too - Kontakt supports sending scripted MIDI events to MIDI output, to drive any other plugin you want. Hence "Send MIDI to outside world" options.


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## silenceworks (Jun 11, 2013)

Sounds like a marketing strategy to me, start with $1000 price tag,once it generates enough buzz lower the price by 75%, brilliant. It does look and sound good though,good luck with it.


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## lucky909091 (Jun 12, 2013)

Hint for Stu:
the link to his website "studioweapon" in his very first post within this thread is not working.
I get a white site with the words "here is nothing to serve".


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## dedersen (Jun 12, 2013)

silenceworks @ Tue Jun 11 said:


> Sounds like a marketing strategy to me, start with $1000 price tag,once it generates enough buzz lower the price by 75%, brilliant. It does look and sound good though,good luck with it.


Wow. Some people you just can't win over, it seems. Did you see the video Stu posted? That's some Oscar-worthy acting if your rather cynical viewpoint has any truth to it.


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## shakuman (Jun 12, 2013)

lucky909091 @ Wed Jun 12 said:


> Hint for Stu:
> the link to his website "studioweapon" in his very first post within this thread is not working.
> I get a white site with the words "here is nothing to serve".



Here you go:

http://www.studioweapon.com/


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## lucky909091 (Jun 12, 2013)

Yeahhh. What was wrong? My browser?


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## Montisquirrel (Jun 12, 2013)

> Yeahhh. What was wrong? My browser?



No. Stu just forgot to delete the "." after "com" :wink:


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## lucky909091 (Jun 12, 2013)

Oh. I did not really recognize this.

Being in a hurry I just click on the links, never looking for the spelling.


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## silenceworks (Jun 12, 2013)

dedersen @ Wed Jun 12 said:


> silenceworks @ Tue Jun 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds like a marketing strategy to me, start with $1000 price tag,once it generates enough buzz lower the price by 75%, brilliant. It does look and sound good though,good luck with it.
> ...



Saw the video, just voiced my opinion and apparently that's a problem.


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## Plasuma!!! (Jun 12, 2013)

Whoa, that's a nice gesture from Stu. Way to go!

I wish I wanted Underscore now, since the the dev is a swell guy.


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