# Mr Holst begs to differ..!



## Danny_Owen (Jan 18, 2011)

So there I was, trying to delve into a bit of Holst's Nepture: The Mystic. I was taking apart bar 12 for those of you that have it (where the violins and violas start doing runs)- I wanted to be able to hear exactly what he was doing so I was typing this part into Sibelius (Sibelius 5).

However when I got to the end of the bar, I got the message 'This is too long to fit in this tuplet' and 'you can't paste here as one of the tuplets would cross a barline'.

So my questions are:

1) is there are strict musical rule which means you can's have a tuplet crossing a bar line?
2) is there any work around on this in Sibelius.

I kinda get the impression Holst knew what he was doing, so is this an error with Sibelius?


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## Jimbo 88 (Jan 18, 2011)

I'm not an expert at notation or Sibelius, but yeah, bar lines are there to aid the reader find the beats, so you shouldn't have a tuplet run over the barline. You also should not have a note hang over beat 2 in a 4/4 measure. But to quote Dick Grove, "all these rules will work fine...unless they don't."

There should be a pretty easy work around in Sibelius. Just start a new tuplet in the next measure. There will be a break--the note stems won't be connected-- but you should be able to get some graphic to simulate a tuplete over the top of the notes. 
The stems not connected might be an aid to the reader.


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## JJP (Jan 18, 2011)

Hi Danny,

I pulled out the Dover score for this, and I'm not sure where the problem lies. I see sextuplet runs at bar 22. In my score, they only place the "6" over the first tuplet but don't bother with the following ones. This was common for engraving triplets and sextuplets before computer notation.

Could you have entered the following sextuplets as standard 16th notes? It would be an easy error to make when working quickly, and would result in too many notes on each beat. You may also want to verify that the downbeat rest is a part of the tuplet as well. That would also cause the error message.


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## Danny_Owen (Jan 18, 2011)

Ah yes, my mistake it is bar 22 and yep it's those sextuplets. I definitely entered them as sextuplets, I originally made the mistake you mentioned JJP, but realised it didn't look quite right. It was literally the fact that the sextuplet ran over the bar that sibelius didn't like.

The problems lies for example in the 1st Violins at the end of bar 22, where there's a sextuplet at the end, but the 6th note ends up on the first beat of bar 23 as opposed to staying within bar 22. Sibelius doesn't even let me start the sextuplet at the end of bar 22 because it calculates that there isn't enough room in the bar for it.

That's interesting to know Jimbo! I'll try splitting the tuplets as you suggest, hopefully it'll work.. not the end of the world if not, I was effectively just trying to solo the strings out in that section because I was interested in how he achieved that effect, but one bar is pretty much enough to get it anyway.

Cheers for the info guys!


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## JJP (Jan 18, 2011)

Danny_Owen @ Tue Jan 18 said:


> The problems lies for example in the 1st Violins at the end of bar 22, where there's a sextuplet at the end, but the 6th note ends up on the first beat of bar 23 as opposed to staying within bar 22. Sibelius doesn't even let me start the sextuplet at the end of bar 22 because it calculates that there isn't enough room in the bar for it.


I wonder if you could be mis-reading the bar. It's not notated very well in the score. 

Some of the sextuplets begin with a rest and have five pitches (e.g. vln 1 beats 1, 3, 5). Those 16th note rests are all on downbeats and are also the first note of each beat's sextuplet (i.e., they have the same value as the notes that follow - not a traditional 16th note). If the sextuplet had a bracket, it would include the rest.

The beaming, lack of a bracket, and spacing of the score can make it confusing, but there should be no need to have any tuplets cross the barline as long as you include that initial rest in each sextuplet.


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## synthetic (Jan 18, 2011)

Just select pairs of tuplets and type "s" to add the phrasing, even over bar lines. The tuplet and the phrase/legato marking are independent.


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## Danny_Owen (Jan 18, 2011)

Ahhhhhh thank you! You're quite right, it's just not notated particularly clearly in the score (I also have the Dover publication). In the Dover score it isn't clear at all that the rests are included in the sextuplet, instead it looks like the sextuplet starts on the E. And like a muppet I didn't count the number of notes, I just assumed there were 12 notes with each double sextuplet because that's how it looked on the score. You're examples make it much clearer! Thank you 

(slightly embarrassed now lol, very simple mistake to make)


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## JJP (Jan 18, 2011)

No need to be embarrassed! This just proves the importance of clear, proper notation. Imagine if that were a part you were sight-reading. :oops: 

Glad it's all sorted for you. o-[][]-o


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## realstrings (Jan 19, 2011)

I think this reminds us how good software notation has become! I often give orchestral players parts printed out of Logic and apologize for them being scrappy and they tell me they are much easier to read than some of the older, (pre-software), parts they sometimes have chucked at them! That's not to underestimate the amazing job engravers did!
I can still remember working with pen and paper and thinking the most marvellous bit of tech was a photocopier!


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## Ashermusic (Jan 19, 2011)

realstrings @ Wed Jan 19 said:


> I think this reminds us how good software notation has become! I often give orchestral players parts printed out of Logic and apologize for them being scrappy and they tell me they are much easier to read than some of the older, (pre-software), parts they sometimes have chucked at them! That's not to underestimate the amazing job engravers did!
> I can still remember working with pen and paper and thinking the most marvellous bit of tech was a photocopier!



I started printing scores with Logic's grandfather, Notator (Atari) back in the early 90's when I was scoring "Zorro". Since then, I have done well over a thousand cues with Notator and then Logic I am sure and there have never been any complaints from the players.

But it does involve some workarounds and compromises sometimes.


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