# Reverb for Sampled based productions



## Tanuj Tiku (Oct 30, 2009)

I have been involved with sample based music for some 5-6 years and have been working professionaly for 2 years. 

I have Altiverb and use Vienna Instruments for 95% of my music. 


I am not satisfied with the sound I get out of my template for some reason. I have experimented with many approaches - from inserts to Sends method but I generally feel - my reverbs are not the best. And its extremely important to get that right.

We dont have orchestras in India - so most work I do ends up being 90%-100% sample based and so doing the reverb is an extremely important of it. 

So I would really appreciate if people could chime in their preffered method of using reverbs and how to get a good sounding reverb.

I am using the Sends method right now with Altiverb and of course I seperate all my Early Reflection instances and then have a single Master Verb - Which is the L480 Concert Hall these days.

The Oliver Gold Hall really opens up the sound but it has a major slap back - I dont know if thats ok technically - but stuff usually sounds clearer with that impulse...at times it does not...

And of course on top of this - there is the Dynamic Range to set up....

There are so many ways of using Altiverb - its just really confusing to know which one really works for orchestral music. I used to use the Stage Positioning in Altiverb but now I have stopped using that because lot of people said its not that great and I just wanted to get a clearer sound - so I started doing a new approach.

Some people say I should buy a Lexicon unit to get a good tail and even for ER stuff.....I dont know....


Anyway, I hope some of you will share your knowledge or at least point me in the right direction.



Thanks.

Tanuj.


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## JohnG (Oct 30, 2009)

Hi Tanuj,

Maybe if it's possible, it might be helpful if you could post several audio clips to illustrate what you like or don't like about your current sound? At least that would allow some of the reverb experts to understand your basic sound.


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## nikolas (Oct 30, 2009)

There's always MIR now...

But, indeed, as John says, just post a few clips, so we (well... the other experts in reverb, since I'm nothing close to an expert in reverb) can have a listen and get a better idea of what you're talking about.


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## chimuelo (Oct 30, 2009)

Hardware is the best method because it will never need to be updated and operates independant of the Computer.
It also has the capability to be manipulated in realtime w/o artifacts and zippery noises.
But software reverbs are cheap and they sound good as long as they remain static.
Before you go buying hardware or some other method, I would question the application that is doing the mixing.
If it is your sequencer doing the mixing, that's the source of mushiness IMHO.
These apps dedicate their resources to way too many other tasks to rely on them for mastering. They are adequate at best. The more tracks you add and the more reverb you add the less defintion you will hear.
At least your ears are good enough to notice the lack of clarity, be glad for that. I have many friends who mix in the DAW using Cubase or their RME soundcards and their mixes are lifeless and dull.
There are many alternatives that allow sequencer integration and of course they aren't free. 
I would start there. 
There's a reason summing mixers sell so well.
Also check out the sequencer integration of a UAD, PoCo or Scope DSP cards. They have high quality reverbs and effects and you can sum your mix there.
They also cost money, but smart clients with good ears can be a PITA. But so can a VST Mud mix.

http://www.uaudio.com/menu/products.html
http://www.sonic-core.net/en/home/scp.html
http://www.merging.com/products/show?product=1&page=54 (http://www.merging.com/products/show?product=1&amp;page=54)

The first 2 choices are DSP cards with I/O's that also allow external equipment to routed into a project.
the 3rd choice is native and needs a DSP card for high quality I/O's to hardware consoles or monitors for mastering.

Merging Technologies Mass Core is the future for VST/AU IMHO.
I heard the 192k mix and it is stunning.
You'll never want to use a generic mixing solution again.


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## germancomponist (Oct 30, 2009)

chimuelo @ Fri Oct 30 said:


> Hardware is the best method because it will never need to be updated and operates independant of the Computer.
> It also has the capability to be manipulated in realtime w/o artifacts and zippery noises.
> But software reverbs are cheap and they sound good as long as they remain static.
> Before you go buying hardware or some other method, I would question the application that is doing the mixing.
> ...



Your lines stimulate me to reflect on. You're probably right when you say that Merging Technologies Mass Core is the future for VST/AU.

Thanks for your post!

Gunther


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## chimuelo (Oct 30, 2009)

I have seen Nuendo, Avid and Pyramix run a complete Audio/Visual Studio that also does lots of digital archiving for film and audio too.
But Mass Core with any sequencer should be awesome. They demo'd it on a laptop too..............Bastards.. >8o


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## Tanuj Tiku (Nov 9, 2009)

Thank you all for replying....Sorry for the late reply - I was out of town.

I am posting a few examples of my work for you guys to critic on - hopefully to help me get a better sound. 

I have got some good results with altiverb running as inserts on group channels - and some bad results with the same.

In order to improve my sound - I moved to the Sends method - Where I am sending seperately to ER Altiverb and Tail Altiverb from the same source - and mixing back some dry sound. 

I dont know what is the correct method of using Altiverb. As such, my mixes are not as clear and the depth is not fully captured I feel as is of some other composers present on this forum. 

Given that my room is really bad - what are some of the techniques I can use in my existing set up to enhance the production quality of my music.

Sometimes - certain settings give a good high sound - but bad bass sound and vice verse - very difficult to control the sound.


No 1 question is - How do you guys use your reverb ? Insert v/s Sends - 

2. What Reverb do you use? Outboard or Altiverb etc?

3. Does it make sense in spending money on tube based outboard geat - of even a Dbx bass enhancer etc?

I would love to hear some comments.


chimuelo:

I am not sure I understand what you mean by DAW's like Cubase using too much processing to do other things? I end up using max 30% of my new core i 7 machine qith 12 GB Ram - So definitely have lot of head room for the processor to do its job.

Also - I would love to understand how mixing in Pyramix is better than mixing stuff in Cubase?

Also in general - what kind of outboard gear do people use here as film composers for orhcestral work etc? Is UAD better than Waves or Vienna Suite etc?

Of course, we are strictly talking about sample based productions and how to enhance it. 

Also - if we can discuss about Dynamic Range - how to set up a good one - starting points - I am forever moving my knobs to get a great sound...


Here are some links: Some people say - some tracks sound good - some dont. I am not the best judge because I dont work in a studio environment most of the time.

But I guess here we can start a totally mix/sound based approach to these pieces - Other people are welcome to post as long as we remain on the same track of course.


For example I got bad Mix Reviews recently on this forum itself:

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13954



http://www.tanuj-tiku.com/VSL/4MinsDisected.mp3 (www.tanuj-tiku.com/VSL/4MinsDisected.mp3)

http://www.tanuj-tiku.com/OrchestraAndPercussion.mp3 (www.tanuj-tiku.com/OrchestraAndPercussion.mp3)

http://www.tanuj-tiku.com/KpReelEnd.mp3 (www.tanuj-tiku.com/KpReelEnd.mp3)

http://www.tanuj-tiku.com/On0408.mp3 (www.tanuj-tiku.com/On0408.mp3)

http://www.tanuj-tiku.com/OpNo1.mp3 (www.tanuj-tiku.com/OpNo1.mp3)

http://www.tanuj-tiku.com/SB1.mp3 (www.tanuj-tiku.com/SB1.mp3)

http://www.tanuj-tiku.com/VSL/IhaveAJobForYou.mp3 (www.tanuj-tiku.com/VSL/IhaveAJobForYou.mp3)

http://www.tanuj-tiku.com/VSL/R3END.mp3 (www.tanuj-tiku.com/VSL/R3END.mp3)

http://www.tanuj-tiku.com/CrystalSea.mp3 (www.tanuj-tiku.com/CrystalSea.mp3)



Best,

Tanuj.


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## Stephen Baysted (Nov 9, 2009)

Hi Tanuj, 

I'm not sure that your 'problem' is reverb; it sounds to me like an EQ issue which ay be associated with your monitoring environment. 

How do you EQ VSL at the moment?


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## synthetic (Nov 9, 2009)

I don't like the sound of IR reverbs like Altiverb. I bought a Lexicon PCM96 Surround and love it. For less money, check out Eos from Audio Damage. That's the best algorithmic reverb I've heard in software so far, and it's only $49. 

http://www.audiodamage.com/effects/product.php?pid=AD023 (http://www.audiodamage.com/effects/prod ... ?pid=AD023)


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## synthetic (Nov 9, 2009)

Compared to algorithmic reverbs, IR reverbs sound static, boring, ringy. Almost like I'm hearing the return twice, that phasey thing. Algorithmic stuff is just bigger and more alive. The Lexicon sound is so wet and juicy. Your favorite soundtrack recordings were probably mixed with algorithmic reverb (especially if they were mixed by Shawn Murphy, Alan Meyerson, etc.)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 9, 2009)

No offense, Jeff, but are you sure you're not just thinking about the general hall in Giga?

Some of the rooms were good, and of course the stuff Larry S did was really well done, but to me that hall wasn't exactly a strong point.

And I have to say that I sold two NuVerbs (Lexicon 300s on a card - each one was half a 480) after getting Altiverb, because I just didn't use them anymore. To me Altiverb is anything but static, boring, and ringy if you put in the right impulses - like almost all the standard hall and studio ones it comes with. I'd say what you're describing is *bad* impulse responses in Altiverb. 

In fact I'd go farther and say that while static and boring are subjective, ringy is objectively not an intrinsic feature of convolution reverbs.

My opinion is that for some things, convolution reverbs came out and made a mockery of the high-end reverb units we'd been using for 40 years. What I do like algorithmic reverbs for is individual instruments; that thick Lexicon sound is fab on snare, for example, or an arpeggiated synth sound...that kind of thing. The Spin parameter is great for those tails.


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## MaraschinoMusic (Nov 9, 2009)

chimuelo @ Sat Oct 31 said:


> Hardware is the best method because it will never need to be updated and operates independant of the Computer.



+1 for hardware...!
I've got an old Lexicon 480L - and in my humble opinion nothing else comes close to the sound I want. I always mix externally to the computer anyway, so software reverbs are no use to me.


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## synthetic (Nov 9, 2009)

No offense, Batz, but NuVerb ≠ PCM96. I hated Gigapulse and Space Designer. Altiverb was OK, but once I stopped using it (because I was supposed to?) and went back to algorithmic reverbs, I liked those better. 

I got to interview Allen Sides a few weeks ago, and one of the things he said was that there's a real misconception about how records are made these days. 80% of hit records are mixed analog, not in the box. But the feeling is "everyone mixes in the box." You go in the studios where people are really doing it, you see Lexicon, Bricasti, Neve, SSL, API, etc. 

Try both, use the one that sounds better to you.


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## Frederick Russ (Nov 9, 2009)

If you're still wanting to stay ITB, try out 2cAudio Aether. Its perhaps one of the better algorithmic reverb plug-ins. Waves IR-1 w/true stereo coupled with Bricasti M7 true stereo impulses is super clean with minimal artifacts. Probably won't compete head to head with high end hardware boxes by lexicon & bricasti but they're still good.


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## hbuus (Nov 9, 2009)

Tanuj,

Have you listened to the various works done with VSL's MIR yet?
It can make a mix sound super-clean, at least to my hobbyist ears.
Listening through my HD600s, those MIR demos are very high up on my list of best mixes I've heard.
There's Jay Bacal's JW-piece (can't remember the name of it), but also one other, which I forgot unfortunately.

Henrik


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## Rob Elliott (Nov 9, 2009)

Short of going to the pricey hardware. Of late, I have found the FOX room (altiverb) and TOdd AO - wide mics (for strings) - and then washing everything with either EOS or Acousticas EMT245 / 3.2 'B' setting to get it close. That is 'this week's' solution.


Mixing Nirvana is not achieved but ever pursued. :D 

(not to go OT - but I find the more elegant / efficient my arrangement and orchestration is - the easier to get the mix right - no surprise there.)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 9, 2009)

"NuVerb ≠ PCM96"

No, but it is half a 480 - a 300 on a card.


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## synthetic (Nov 10, 2009)

Frederick Russ said:


> If you're still wanting to stay ITB...



PCM96 series allows you to stay ITB with a plug-in interface, it's nifty. 



Nick Batsdorf said:


> No, but it is half a 480 - a 300 on a card.



Meh. It's a Lexichip, I never liked those. More like a PCM91.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Nov 10, 2009)

Hi! Guys,

I just did a new piece of music with some new Reverb and EQ settings - Please free to give any comments...

http://vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... 671#184671


I am trying out the demo from 2CAudio - Aether sounds great!


Best,

Tanuj.


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## chimuelo (Nov 10, 2009)

Sounds nice.
The Dynamics aren't over Cubased, and you aren't bathing in reverb, so thanks for that too. I was especially glad you didn't put too much reverb on the Tymps.
Now imagine the reverb following you and changing depth and size in realtime using nice MIDI tricks and curve draws.
Well a 50 dollar Aether won't do that, but it is a nice sounding effect. I just don't have much use for static samples or static effects.
But they can be used for anything that doesn't reqiure motion. Like a voice of a speaker. Hell even a recording of footsteps has to appear to be moving further away while it decreases in volume, but than again mock ups never make it to the big screen do they. So if you believe in yourself and want the best ITB you can getm go for it. Rendering to audio using a single great reverb is a skill of it's own that's why I use 2 DSP and 2 hardware and uses Busses/AUX's for getting there quicker.
I use as much motion and dynamics as I can because I love Electro as much as Orchestral and Jazz. With Electro the delays via BPM and filters are naturally full of dynamics and motion.
A guy with an ear as good as yours should eventually graduate to a real reverb though. I am looking into MIR from VSL right now but it seems more like an expensive convenience. But again composers who are on a musical roll don't have time to stop and tweak to perfection their effects, etc.
But a little Pre production in the form of a template goes a long way.

Good Work..



BTW, I meant that Cusbase, Logic, Sonar and most sequencer apps try to do everything, which usually means their routing of hardware comes 10 years late, or their mixing of larger projects suffer from phasing issues and general muddiness. * -16 tracks is as far as I would go, but I don't even use Cubase for anything other than it's best strength.........fast effiecent undos and MIDI.


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## JT3_Jon (Nov 10, 2009)

chimuelo @ Tue Nov 10 said:


> Now imagine the reverb following you and changing depth and size in realtime using nice MIDI tricks and curve draws.



There are no plugins that give you the ability to change depth and size in realtime without artifacts, correct? Or are you talking about setting up different size rooms on different sends, and automating the send levels instead of automating the actual reverb?


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## chimuelo (Nov 11, 2009)

Correct,it has to be a DSP Reverb specially made or hardware.
It requires special audio gates and some assignable RAM. Most hardware developers probably have this occur naturally I am not sure.
But I noticed this when I sold my PCM70 and replaced it with a PCM91.
It had a Doppler preset that could take the sound of a passing train with the horn blaring at 100% wet and give the effect of you standing still. The PCM91 used a knock off chip from Harman/Digidesign that took away that feature. But most Foley artists and larger studios and most touring FOH editors for MixMag always have a 480L on thier manifest or racked effects.
I really never used it much live as I was busy playing but engineers loved those LARCS and the PCM70's had assignable MIDI.
But the PCM70 sucked because I had to wait for it to load....!! That's why we used those God awful sounding Alesis MIDI FX and MIDIVerbs back then . Their sound was O.K. live but could have a QX-1 or Roland MC500-MKII sync w/ Oberheim/EMU drum machine and automate the vocal FX. That was a little high tech group I had in between gigs that shocked folks stateside. I had the sequencers in Osaka in late 83 and had a year to use them before I came back to the state. It was pretty cool pretending I was playing all the parts and having automated vocal FX...... :mrgreen: 
I believe the Oxford Sony plugs, PCM96 and Bricasti M7's, Quantum Yardsticks, Ursa Major ( seven woods ) Space Stations still use such gates and buffers.
But having a PCM70 tracking Miraslav's Celli/Legato is jsut Georgeous this way. Sadly I am a whore who does what he's told these days, but I need expensive gear so I hide my shame and smile privately.... /\~O


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## germancomponist (Nov 11, 2009)

JT3_Jon @ Wed Nov 11 said:


> There are no plugins that give you the ability to change depth and size in realtime without artifacts, correct? Or are you talking about setting up different size rooms on different sends, and automating the send levels instead of automating the actual reverb?



There are some plugs where you can do it, but also automating the sends or returns is mostly a must. o/~


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## chimuelo (Nov 11, 2009)

I would love to know what plugs those are. We aren't just talking about Mix dry/wet levels, but room size as in meters, diffusion, etc...?? Correctamundo?
I don't follow VST plugs much anymore as I assumed they were all based on static algorhythims, maybe some DSP developer has turned coats since the Nehalem i7's came out. I mean the power is here now,there's hardly a reason to make a " conservative "plug unless it's for an out of work Republican Congressman...........Ankyuvarymush.. :lol: 

Below upper left is a PCM91 emulation from an underpaid Danish developer who made this plug so good I kept a PCM91 and sold the other.
The parameters necessary for zipper free manipulation are marked.
The 5.1 reverb on the right operates in Surround @ 96k and is stunningly realistic.
I have so much RAM and ADP21369 chips in my DSP rack I can use 24 of these. Hardly necessary but it's nice for once after 30 years of cutting corners to have what I need in realtime. That's why VST developers really have no excuse to watch our resources anymore, well unless they are still pushing older designs with great slogans like the " ultimate " or the newest one I find amusing is " Chains of FX....yeah, lets add even more phasing issues and out of alignment samples... :roll: 
The Delay on the bottom is what I use for Hendrix reverse solos, etc. in real time.
You set the BPM rate and play anywhere from a quarter note to a half note ahead of time, and naturally the solo should be well developed and climatictic. But these are all realtime audio tricks that DSP users have been doing for the last decade actually, and now there's no reason why VST developers can't step into the 21st century. By 2011 CPU's will out preform DSP chips IMHO due to the sheer amount of GFlops. But it depends who is developing them.
Listen to some old 9 inch nails reverb effects and synths from 2001-2003. Those are old Scope synths and plugs made by a developer named Paul Tanti. They are stellar and the DAC's weren't even that great on those cards.

Before my gig I have to roll a controller and a rack out to the sidewalk in front of the Casino to try and attract people into gamble. I am up against DJ's and Mimes, half naked show girls, etc. So I need to be different. I just do live left hand bass right handed Guitar kind of tunes and let people sing through the mic like a live kareoke. I do pretty damn good because I have these nice reverse Guitar effects and don't cheeze out using Cubase or that kind of jive. Just me my hands and pedals. But I ain't no Puto either. Most people use a little Schnifter as a tip jar. I use a Gallon jug for SunTea and stuff it with 5 dollar bills so people get the idea that I ain't no 50 cent or 1 dollar player.... :idea: 

Anyway here's a few live takes and this kind of music works well,plus I can give out free drink tokes to finest looking chicks, to hell with the guys,they drink and run off all of the fine trim,so it's babes only for me.The nighttime band I perform with is a Classic Rock and HipHop band so I get a well rounded workout. But the reverbs and effects are all editable in realtime and the reverse Guitar solos can't even be done using hardware unless you have 2 x Oberheim Echoplex Pros w/ footpedals and maxxed out RAM and prerecorded licks. I do mine on the fly while pushing Bass, so naturally you'll hear a couple clunkers,but I am playing for singing, dancing drunks who aren't polishing their nails....

http://forums.planetz.com/download/file.php?id=5914
http://forums.planetz.com/download/file.php?id=5928
http://forums.planetz.com/download/file.php?id=6034
http://forums.planetz.com/download/file.php?id=6035


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## Tanuj Tiku (Nov 24, 2009)

Chimuelo

Thanks for sharing your views and audio clips - they sound FAT and Fantastic! The reverbs are damn clear and the low end - I never hear that kind of low end in my tracks in this - what is probably the most rectangular room in the world!


I can happily say that I have have come out with better reverb settings now. I found that my sound was very weak in certain areas - which needed improvements that could be made with existing software. 

So many other people have got great results with the same reverb - so I tried to do more and understand - obviously having a bad room is not great! But, I am trying.


In my experiments I found that the reverb impulse itself is not bad - but it needs to be heavily eq'd and so do many instruments and sounds. I found that over all - my sound had more of an EQ problem than a Reverb issue. I am still going to work on it.


But thank you one and all - I know all of you here are great at what you do! Thanks for sharing - this is often not the case on many forums. 


I am going to start another thread in which we can hopefully discuss issues related to the production of Sampled Based Music. 

This will include EQ, Compression, Multi Band Compression - Mastering your tracks - if no engineer is available of course - or just for ones own understanding of audio.

And finally - Dynamic Range.


Thanks one and all.


Tanuj.


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