# Timbre/colour of strings



## MoonFlare (Jan 7, 2013)

I've heard a lot of scores/demos made using sample libraries. I often feel that people are able to get better sounding strings than what I am capable of. There's a subtle difference in the colour and timbre, in particular in the violins. As an example, I have Cinematic Strings, and it sounds great, but I'm not able to get the sound as polished as many of you guys. I stress that I'm not talking about orchestration and voicing here, but only the sonic character of the strings. 

I suspect it has something to do with reverb. I use QL spaces, but it doesn't seem to colour the sound that much. Am I into something here?


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## RiffWraith (Jan 7, 2013)

Reverb shouldn't be coloring the sound - but adding depth and space to your samples. If you are looking to "color" the sound (as the term is generally used), eq is your friend here.

As for verb, I find that the Hamburg Cathedral B TS FR 2.0 works very well on strings, so maybe try that if you haven't already.

_I often feel that people are able to get better sounding strings than what I am capable of._

Well, how do you know that other people are getting a more realistic sound than you? Maybe it is you who is getting a more realistic - or "better" - sound, but for some reason, other people's strings sound better to your ears. Do you know what real strings sound like? Have you ever stood in front of a good orchestra in a good concert hall, and listened intently to the strings? So much of this is subjective anyway; it's difficult to say that one way is "better" than the other....

Cheers.


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## MoonFlare (Jan 8, 2013)

RiffWraith @ Mon Jan 07 said:


> Reverb shouldn't be coloring the sound - but adding depth and space to your samples. If you are looking to "color" the sound (as the term is generally used), eq is your friend here.
> 
> As for verb, I find that the Hamburg Cathedral B TS FR 2.0 works very well on strings, so maybe try that if you haven't already.
> 
> ...



I've listened to live strings, and the violins always sound better. There was a discussion on why sampled violins often sound worse than the real thing a month ago or something; there were some very interesting observations and comments made. What I'm looking for is the Hollywood sound. Actually, I do not need such a sound very often, but it would be very interesting to make a piece that sounds similar to the Hollywood scores (e.g. for end titles). Do you know about any guides that address this? That is, how to process strings to get the Hollywood sound. There have been several topics on how to EQ LASS, etc. I've never been able to get LASS sound good, so I go to CS way more than LASS. What I'm looking for is how to process CS strings. Alex has a video blog on this - but the resulting sounding strings are still not what I'm after. The sound I'm after is basically that of the Bloond Diamond score.


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## Daniel James (Jan 8, 2013)

RiffWraith @ Mon Jan 07 said:


> Reverb shouldn't be coloring the sound - but adding depth and space to your samples.



Haha speak for yourself there  My stuff is swimming in verb, and most of the time for the main purpose of coloring the sound. I like to mess with the reverb eq more than the actual string EQ

Also something to note is that quite often orchestration is the reason some peoples string sections sound fuller. Try doubling some string lines with other instruments, see if you can pull some combinations you like...there are all sorts of books that cover the 'best' ways to layer your strings, however I enjoy exploring and discovering combos no one uses  (or at least often)

-DJ


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## Blakus (Jan 8, 2013)

Hey moonflare, an audio example of your strings that you're not quite happy with would go a long way in gaining some more specific feedback and advice.


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## reddognoyz (Jan 8, 2013)

Daniel James @ Tue Jan 08 said:


> RiffWraith @ Mon Jan 07 said:
> 
> 
> > ...there are all sorts of books that cover the 'best' ways to layer your strings, however I enjoy exploring and discovering combos no one uses  (or at least often)
> ...



Sort of off your point but I like to double staccato woods with pitz strings, sometimes paraphrasing(pulling out the 16th notes and such) for comedy lines.


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## MoonFlare (Jan 8, 2013)

Blakus @ Tue Jan 08 said:


> Hey moonflare, an audio example of your strings that you're not quite happy with would go a long way in gaining some more specific feedback and advice.



Of course, here you are:

https://www.box.com/s/i7dpupkfel2eaa3u8sy5


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## ghostnote (Jan 9, 2013)

MoonFlare @ Tue Jan 08 said:


> Blakus @ Tue Jan 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Hey moonflare, an audio example of your strings that you're not quite happy with would go a long way in gaining some more specific feedback and advice.
> ...



very nice piece. You are using a bit too much reverb (just for my taste, nothing wrong with it), which one are you using? Have you tried to stack several instances of it?

However, Reverb can color your strings but the most important part is still the EQ. Are you rolling the bass off of the violins and violas? Applying a high-pass filter to the reverb (at about 200Hz) can help too.


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## germancomponist (Jan 9, 2013)

Daniel James @ Tue Jan 08 said:


> RiffWraith @ Mon Jan 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Reverb shouldn't be coloring the sound - but adding depth and space to your samples.
> ...



+1


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## MoonFlare (Jan 10, 2013)

Michael Chrostek @ Wed Jan 09 said:


> MoonFlare @ Tue Jan 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Blakus @ Tue Jan 08 said:
> ...



Thanks! I use QL Spaces. I agree there may be a little too much reverb. Hm...removing some bottom end on the violions and violas has actually not been tried so far.


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## MoonFlare (Jan 10, 2013)

askmusic @ Wed Jan 09 said:


> I guess you simply can't get the sound you're after with CS, especially concerning the violins. You can tweak some color with eq, but you cannot change the character of samples that much. And you will never be able to make them sound more realistic, by using eq. If you want to stick with CS as basic strings, I would take another library with a smaller ensemble or some solo Violins and double the Violin part with them. I guess you want to have more detail and life in your string sound and layering a big with a small ensemble and/or soloists can achieve this. Of course those other samples must have life wihthin their sound or should be able to create this with modulation etc.
> 
> After that it can be quite a challenge to mix both libraries together and at this stage eq and reverb are helpful tools.



I'm afraid you're spot on here! My observation is exactly as you point out: it would be great with more life in the violins. In CS the violins sound good, but they're a little "muddy" without details. Are there any solo or ensembles that work well for this kind of layering that you have experience with?


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## ghostnote (Jan 10, 2013)

MoonFlare @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> Thanks! I use QL Spaces. I agree there may be a little too much reverb. Hm...removing some bottom end on the violions and violas has actually not been tried so far.



Try it, it'll add more detail to your strings. 



MoonFlare @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> it would be great with more life in the violins. In CS the violins sound good, but they're a little "muddy" without details.



That sounds awful. I was thinking of getting CS 2 next month.


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## bryla (Jan 10, 2013)

You can change the timbre by tuning the instrument and then correcting by transposing midi. Have you tried that?


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## MoonFlare (Jan 10, 2013)

Michael Chrostek @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> MoonFlare @ Thu Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks! I use QL Spaces. I agree there may be a little too much reverb. Hm...removing some bottom end on the violions and violas has actually not been tried so far.
> ...



CS is still a great library though, and the support is good as well! I think you should still consider it.


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## MoonFlare (Jan 10, 2013)

bryla @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> You can change the timbre by tuning the instrument and then correcting by transposing midi. Have you tried that?



Nope, I haven't tried that. I'm not entirely sure how to do what you're suggesting. Would you tune it, e.g. a half tone? And how do you actually tune the instrument (sorry for asking about this, it may be a novice question).


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## Kejero (Jan 10, 2013)

Daniel James @ Tue Jan 08 said:


> Also something to note is that quite often orchestration is the reason some peoples string sections sound fuller



This can't be stressed enough! It's no coincidence that the best mockups you hear are always by people who know their orchestration.


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## MoonFlare (Jan 10, 2013)

Kejero @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> Daniel James @ Tue Jan 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Also something to note is that quite often orchestration is the reason some peoples string sections sound fuller
> ...



That is true, but I'm not sure that orchestration can add more detail to the violins. I'm afraid that has something to do with the samples. At least for the most part.


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## MoonFlare (Jan 10, 2013)

askmusic @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> MoonFlare @ Thu Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > askmusic @ Wed Jan 09 said:
> ...



Thanks for the suggestions! My problem with acquiring Albion is that there are no single instrument patches for the strings. I never use multiple instrument patches since it's not possible to orchestrate things properly.


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## bryla (Jan 10, 2013)

MoonFlare @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> bryla @ Thu Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > You can change the timbre by tuning the instrument and then correcting by transposing midi. Have you tried that?
> ...


In Kontakt tune it a semitone up and make your sequencer transpose incoming midi notes a semitone down. Or the other way around


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## Mahlon (Jan 10, 2013)

Your best bet, since you've got two great libraries, is to mix a little LASS (and/or LASS LS if you have it) into the base CS sound.

LASS's detailed sound should bring CS into focus, if that's what you're going for.

Try a little LASS first chair. Really brings a big section down to size.

Mahlon


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## MoonFlare (Jan 11, 2013)

bryla @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> MoonFlare @ Thu Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > bryla @ Thu Jan 10 said:
> ...



Ah, I see! Thanks! But I'm not sure why this should help in "detailing" the violins?


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## MoonFlare (Jan 11, 2013)

Mahlon @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> Your best bet, since you've got two great libraries, is to mix a little LASS (and/or LASS LS if you have it) into the base CS sound.
> 
> LASS's detailed sound should bring CS into focus, if that's what you're going for.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your suggestion! It seems that layering of some solo or ensemble strings is the way to go.


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## Kejero (Jan 11, 2013)

Yeah, for detail it's always a good idea to layer with a solo violin. I almost always do this. The Gypsy violin even used to be my go-to violin for layering before I got LASS, and even still it's getting a lot of use (few violins have as much character as the Gypsy!)


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## MoonFlare (Jan 11, 2013)

Kejero @ Fri Jan 11 said:


> Yeah, for detail it's always a good idea to layer with a solo violin. I almost always do this. The Gypsy violin even used to be my go-to violin for layering before I got LASS, and even still it's getting a lot of use (few violins have as much character as the Gypsy!)



The new Embertone violin is probably also a good candidate for such a task.


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## mark812 (Jan 11, 2013)

Layering solo strings on top is the way to go. Also, try layering CS close mics with mix mics.


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## Rob Elliott (Jan 11, 2013)

Mahlon @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> Your best bet, since you've got two great libraries, is to mix a little LASS (and/or LASS LS if you have it) into the base CS sound.
> 
> LASS's detailed sound should bring CS into focus, if that's what you're going for.
> 
> ...




+1 with Mahlon on this. Also try LASS's B chair with CS (The B's have that molto vibrato - rawness vibe - perfect blend with CS's lushness. Mix to taste. Be liberal with BOTH libraries' control of 'vibrato'. Don't cut an paste these parts - if both libraries have the same CC assignments made. Keep it lively.


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## Mahlon (Jan 11, 2013)

Rob Elliott @ Fri Jan 11 said:


> ....Also try LASS's B chair with CS (The B's have that molto vibrato - rawness vibe - perfect blend with CS's lushness. Mix to taste. Be liberal with BOTH libraries' control of 'vibrato'. Don't cut an paste these parts - if both libraries have the same CC assignments made. Keep it lively.



Love the B Section.

M.


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## MoonFlare (Jan 14, 2013)

Thanks very much for your tips!

I used the weekend and experiemented with layering. It's actually working quite good! I've not landed on an optimal sound yet, but I feel I'm getting closer!


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