# Hanz Zimmers "Chevaliers de Sangreal" with Hollywood Orchestra Gold



## erikradbo (Jun 5, 2017)

Hi all,

I've been taking the advice of Mike Verta, to practice orchestration by transcribing. This is my first attempt, transcribing "Chevaliers de Sangreal" from the Da Vinci Code, (a pretty neat piece by Hans Zimmer). It's been a great learning experience in many ways, and took quite some time to finish.

The sounds you hear are all from Hollywood Orchestra Gold. Some patches were quite hard to work with, especially the cello legato, but I thought it would be nice to hear what it would sound like using HO only. I might try to make a comparison blending in some CSS and Albions in the future, but right now I think I need to rest my ears from this piece for a while...

Here's my version:


And here's the original, I used one of the version with orchestra only, as opposed to the one with some electronic sounds and choirs.


I'm all new to this, so please don't hesitate to share any suggestions on how to improve things. And take care!


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## cygnusdei (Jun 6, 2017)

Good job on the transcription, sounds like you nailed the notations! At first hearing though the impression is that yours got 'too loud too early' - the original starts with with _p _and only by 1:46 does it get to _mf_. Maybe because your sound staging is much more 'forward', the triple figurations in the violin sections become too prominent and thus sound rather clunky rather than floating, especially in the beginning. Also they sound out of sync with repeated triples in the cello - it seems that the rhythm is not the same as in the original. But good job on the sustaining the tension all through the end.

Question though: in general is it a problem to do mock-ups of copyrighted works? Do people get harrassed by the publishers and/or get copyright claims on Youtube? I'd love to dabble in this too but am apprehensive of the possible harrassment.


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## mac (Jun 6, 2017)

I'd agree with what @cygnusdei said regards dialling back the dynamics at the start. The original floats along like a butterfly and when the crescendo hits, it gives you that swell of emotion. In your version my ears are already pretty tired out by that point, so it gets a little lost. That being said, it's still an excellent effort!


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## erikradbo (Jun 7, 2017)

@cygnusdei and @mac thanks for the feedback,



cygnusdei said:


> Good job on the transcription, sounds like you nailed the notations! At first hearing though the impression is that yours got 'too loud too early' - the original starts with with _p _and only by 1:46 does it get to _mf_.





mac said:


> I'd agree with what @cygnusdei said regards dialling back the dynamics at the start. The original floats along like a butterfly and when the crescendo hits, it gives you that swell of emotion. In your version my ears are already pretty tired out by that point, so it gets a little lost.



Agreed, and yet I tried to achieve this soft start to some extent. I'm guessing I'm still starting off to heavy on the mod wheel but it might also be due to my trigger happy compression finger on the master bus. 



cygnusdei said:


> Also they sound out of sync with repeated triples in the cello - it seems that the rhythm is not the same as in the original. But good job on the sustaining the tension all through the end.



Not sure here, but I did try to make the cello lag a bit, which I found it to do in the original as well. But listening to it again, maybe I overdid it.



cygnusdei said:


> Question though: in general is it a problem to do mock-ups of copyrighted works? Do people get harrassed by the publishers and/or get copyright claims on Youtube? I'd love to dabble in this too but am apprehensive of the possible harrassment.



I have no idea. I'm not making money out of it, and I find it hard to see how it would be competing with any commercial interest, rather the other way around. And no harassment has occurred...so far.

I do also find the sound to be a bit dense all the way through (resulting in that ear tiredness) but given the composition that might be unavoidable? Or does anyone know any easy trick (reverb wise, mastering wise?) to make it more airy and pleasant?


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## mac (Jun 8, 2017)

@erikradbo Maybe it's your sample library? I'm not familiar with Hollywood Gold, but maybe it doesn't go down far enough (ppp?) in dynamics? It'd be interesting to see what results you could get using Ark 2 or Tundra.


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## Parsifal666 (Jun 8, 2017)

mac said:


> @erikradbo Maybe it's your sample library? I'm not familiar with Hollywood Gold, but maybe it doesn't go down far enough (ppp?) in dynamics? It'd be interesting to see what results you could get using Ark 2 or Tundra.



The ni patches do.


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## Mr Greg G (Jun 8, 2017)

Where is the choir at the end? Always said it, transcription is a great exercise to train your ears, programming skills and learn how great tracks are arranged in details. Good job!


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## dreamnight92 (Jun 8, 2017)

Actually I prefer the Hollywood gold version far away!!! HS has a very nice first violin that cut trough the mix nicely and fit perfect for this piece. Some issues with HS are the inconstancy of the staccato and some unhappy legato slides compared to the original version, but still incredible result for a sample library (and great skills from the transcriber  ). I wonder if Zimmer used sample only for this piece or he recorded a live orchestra...


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## erikradbo (Jun 8, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> The ni patches do.


Yes, def can't blame the library, and in comparison the timbre is a bit loud. Although, dynamic wise, too hard mastering seem to have been the biggest issue. Here's a version with the exact same arrangement just with a much gentler mastering. Still not as soft as the original, esp the horns in the beginning come off a bit strong, but notice what a difference it makes not only to the beginning but to the dynamic feeling of the whole piece. And on top of that, notice how some of the imperfections in the high strings now are much more exposed.





Mr Pringles said:


> Where is the choir at the end? Always said it, transcription is a great exercise to train your ears, programming skills and learn how great tracks are arranged in details. Good job!


Thanks! And, as you probably noticed, the version I picked to transcribe conveniently also lacked those choirs .



dreamnight92 said:


> Actually I prefer the Hollywood gold version far away!!! HS has a very nice first violin that cut trough the mix nicely and fit perfect for this piece. Some issues with HS are the inconstancy of the staccato and some unhappy legato slides compared to the original version, but still incredible result for a sample library (and great skills from the transcriber  ). I wonder if Zimmer used sample only for this piece or he recorded a live orchestra...


Really cool, and agreed with especially the legatos. I think Zimmer used a real orchestra, but am still not sure if this version actually comes from Zimmer himself (lacking the choirs), or if this already is an unofficial version.


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## dreamnight92 (Jun 8, 2017)

Much better the light master version

P.S. can I share your work in some other music discussion groups?


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## erikradbo (Jun 9, 2017)

dreamnight92 said:


> Much better the light master version
> 
> P.S. can I share your work in some other music discussion groups?



Of course.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jun 9, 2017)

erikradbo said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've been taking the advice of Mike Verta, to practice orchestration by transcribing. This is my first attempt, transcribing "Chevaliers de Sangreal" from the Da Vinci Code, (a pretty neat piece by Hans Zimmer). It's been a great learning experience in many ways, and took quite some time to finish.
> 
> ...




Great Job. I really like it a lot! Let me give some little minor thoughts if that is ok?:

- Strings:

When comparing your strings to the HZ Strings the main difference is that your strings are a bit more foccused sounding, technically they don´t don´t swim that much, hard to explain, but when you listen to his rendering, his spiccato strings blur a bit more, not every single line is so on point. IT feels like that an organic texture more. They have also a bit more reverb and less attack that created a very lush creamy sound.

Tenor / Bass Bones:
Especially in the beginning more settle and not that loud like in your version. The brass is here used more like a settle anouncement what is probably coming later. Keep such design consideration in mind.

Tubular Bell:

A bit too loud..

Cellos (at 43 Sec etc):

A bit less of dynamics..make them more gentle.

1:11 Violas / Vlns:

Too loud and too aggressive from their bowing, try to reduce a bit the natural dynamics, and ecspecially let them "swell slowly" in. They just pop there in your face, which is a bit distracting.

Woodwinds:

Use of Short Articulations woodwinds: Try them to make a bit more dynamic, in comparison to the original they are also a tad too loud and later they tend to emerge totally in the sonic wall of strings, which you should keep in mind. (at 2 minutes around).

French Horns:

More forte piano, don´t let open them so quick, listen to the original how they sound because of this more"musical". At 2:58 you get the downside, while in HZ piece they "open up" which creates a moment, you can´t achieve that moment anymore because you horns are out of power already, so bysaying that: SAfe the energy!

Highstrings, Violins 1+2:

Later parts at 3 minutes:
Way too loud. Check your balance!

Apart from that:What did you learn from that cover? I would say that I learned that he is extremely good and creating a grndious build up by vertically packing orchestral instruments to achieve that broad epic sound.

Hope my suggestions help you a bit.


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## erikradbo (Jun 10, 2017)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Great Job. I really like it a lot! Let me give some little minor thoughts if that is ok?:
> 
> - Strings:
> 
> When comparing your strings to the HZ Strings the main difference is that your strings are a bit more foccused sounding, technically they don´t don´t swim that much, hard to explain, but when you listen to his rendering, his spiccato strings blur a bit more, not every single line is so on point. IT feels like that an organic texture more. They have also a bit more reverb and less attack that created a very lush creamy sound.



Hi @AlexanderSchiborr ,

Thanks for the feedback! One thing I really tried to achieve but didn't success was the blurry/swimming feeling of the spiccatos in the beginning. I found that the patches in HO were just more focused than in the HZ version and gave up on achieving it. Do you know how to achieve this with HO?



AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Apart from that:What did you learn from that cover? I would say that I learned that he is extremely good and creating a grndious build up by vertically packing orchestral instruments to achieve that broad epic sound.



Coming from the world of pop music it was to me a confirmation on how chord based HZ is, and that his compositions often have the same philosophy as pop songs on harmonies and how you build up the dynamics. This in comparison to e.g. Williams whose structure and dynamics are much more inspired by classical music. I think a pop band could be quite successful in playing covers of HZ pieces, but imagine hearing a John Williams piece on drums, base, guitar and keyboard .


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## Smikes77 (Jun 10, 2017)

You`re missing the accents on the strings bud. And I agree that the intro strings (and tone of strings) need to be softer/more smeared in general.

Good effort.


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## dannymc (Jun 10, 2017)

if i was to describe your version in an abstract way in comparison to the original from Hans i would say its like your version is holding its breath for the whole cue. you need to let the music breathe so that the heart comes out. i hope that means something you. 

Danny


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## SBK (Jun 10, 2017)

You did wonderful job! Maybe sound wise, mix is a bit blurry but I love the composition you did on the whole instruments


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## Arturas Saskinas (Jun 14, 2017)

Wow. Nice made. Thanks for sharing. Remember these times when this song just inspired me to create lots of music.


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## mcalis (Jun 15, 2017)

> Thanks for the feedback! One thing I really tried to achieve but didn't success was the blurry/swimming feeling of the spiccatos in the beginning. I found that the patches in HO were just more focused than in the HZ version and gave up on achieving it. Do you know how to achieve this with HO?



@erikradbo I think your best bet is using the stac slur patches, or at least gently overlaying those over the spiccatos. Also, are you using the tight spiccatos or the loose ones? Loose would probably be better if you're aiming for a more blurry sound. Beyond that, the only other way to make it more blurry that I can think of is to put a little more reverb on it and shift all the midi notes ever so slightly out of position. Maybe a tiny, tiny amount of pitchbend would also work? I don't know...just a thought I had.


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