# Mac Studio M1 Ultra Audio Settings



## Andrew Orkin (Aug 1, 2022)

Hey folks,

So a month ago I got my M1 Ultra, 128Gb RAM and I’m seriously disappointed with the Logic implementation.

Coming from a 5 year old Hackintosh that ran some monster sessions, this thing is tripping over itself constantly.

From small sessions to my full orchestral template, I’m getting crazy CPU spikes, all sorts of pops and clicks and the list goes on.

Back to what feels like 2009 question, what settings do you recommend for the Buffer/multi threading/Processing etc on the Audio Preferences page? 

Any screen grabs of stable setups would be wonderful. If this keeps acting up it may finally be time for the switch to Cubase….

Cheers,
A


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## Zedcars (Aug 1, 2022)

As backwards as it sounds, try running in Rosetta mode. I've heard it may be better depending on what plugins you are running.


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## davidson (Aug 1, 2022)

I very rarely get any spikes or pops running at a 128 buffer, but I run in native and only use silicon compatible plugs. Rosetta is complete trash in my experience and causes no end of issues.

What interface are you using?


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## Andrew Orkin (Aug 1, 2022)

davidson said:


> I very rarely get any spikes or pops running at a 128 buffer, but I run in native and only use silicon compatible plugs. Rosetta is complete trash in my experience and causes no end of issues.
> 
> What interface are you using?


I have a UAD system which seems pretty solid.

Now that you mention it a handful of my plugs aren’t Native (some plug-in alliance stuff). Let me try disable those and see. Is there a way to quickly see a list of what is running natively vs Rosetta?


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## davidson (Aug 1, 2022)

Andrew Orkin said:


> I have a UAD system which seems pretty solid.
> 
> Now that you mention it a handful of my plugs aren’t Native (some plug-in alliance stuff). Let me try disable those and see. Is there a way to quickly see a list of what is running natively vs Rosetta?


Sure is, download this awesome little app https://www.thinkersnacks.com/as-pluginfo.html

I used it a couple of weeks ago for the first time and it flagged a spitfire plugin that they themselves had wrongly listed as being silicon native.


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## Andrew Orkin (Aug 1, 2022)

davidson said:


> Sure is, download this awesome little app https://www.thinkersnacks.com/as-pluginfo.html
> 
> I used it a couple of weeks ago for the first time and it flagged a spitfire plugin that they themselves had wrongly listed as being silicon native.


This worked great! Thank you. Any chance you could screen grab me your Audio settings? Still a little tweaky on my end even with exclusively Native plugs


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## jcrosby (Aug 1, 2022)

I run Logic in Rosetta mode and it's rock solid and ridiculously efficient. All of my 800+ plugins have no compatibility issues with Rosetta 2. Even a few unexpected great surprises, (Izotope Alloy 2 and Ozone 5) still work on M1 with Rosetta 2 despite being unsupported for 8-9 years now....

'Efficiency-wise' This thing runs about 40% more VIs and plugins than my i9 MBP did, when using Logic in Rosetta 2 mode. I can run a fully mixed 'trailer' orchestration with 80+ instruments, and each bus treated, all performing in real time... CPU tends to stay around 50%. (jumps between up to 60% on occasion, 50% overall, and spikes are super rare for me)... 

On the contrary I get a lot of spikes if I try and run Logic in native mode... I've tried tons of core & buffer settings. Logic spikes frequently.

Overall so far, Rosetta 2 has been a much more stable option for me, and not nearly the resource hog I've seen people say it is, it might be problematic in other DAWs, but in Logic it's great.


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## IFM (Aug 1, 2022)

Andrew Orkin said:


> Hey folks,
> 
> So a month ago I got my M1 Ultra, 128Gb RAM and I’m seriously disappointed with the Logic implementation.
> 
> ...


I've got the same machine as you CPU-wise (did you do the 48-core GPU or the maxed-out one?).

Same thing with a UAD interface. I've had to keep the buffer at 256 otherwise it's unstable, and you won't get as many plugin errors if any. I haven't tried full rosetta mode, but that would eliminate some SF plugins. Cubase I can run 64 buffers with no issues but that forces all native plugins which is why.


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## Andrew Orkin (Aug 1, 2022)

IFM said:


> I've got the same machine as you CPU-wise (did you do the 48-core GPU or the maxed-out one?).
> 
> Same thing with a UAD interface. I've had to keep the buffer at 256 otherwise it's unstable, and you won't get as many plugin errors if any. I haven't tried full rosetta mode, but that would eliminate some SF plugins. Cubase I can run 64 buffers with no issues but that forces all native plugins which is why.


I went 48 core. So you think it’s a UAD issue? Or just that 256 is the sweet spot? Could you screen grab the rest of your buffer settings for me?


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## IFM (Aug 1, 2022)

Andrew Orkin said:


> I went 48 core. So you think it’s a UAD issue? Or just that 256 is the sweet spot? Could you screen grab the rest of your buffer settings for me?


I’m not in the studio but 256 seemed the sweet spot. It’s not UAD but LP somewhere when it encounters both types of plugins as far as I can tell. 

Otherwise everything else is default.


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## jcrosby (Aug 1, 2022)

IFM said:


> I haven't tried full rosetta mode, but that would eliminate some SF plugins.


Which ones? Although I don't have a ton, every SF player instrument I have runs fine in Rosetta 2. You have to re-authorize each plugin in Rosetta mode or it behaves like its broken. But once authorized in Rosetta HZS, AR1, Cinematic Soft Piano, Phobos and Symphonic Motions all work fine.


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## jonnybutter (Aug 1, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> I run Logic in Rosetta mode and it's rock solid and ridiculously efficient. All of my 800+ plugins have no compatibility issues with Rosetta 2. Even a few unexpected great surprises, (Izotope Alloy 2 and Ozone 5) still work on M1 with Rosetta 2 despite being unsupported for 8-9 years now....
> 
> 'Efficiency-wise' This thing runs about 40% more VIs and plugins than my i9 MBP did, when using Logic in Rosetta 2 mode. I can run a fully mixed 'trailer' orchestration with 80+ instruments, and each bus treated, all performing in real time... CPU tends to stay around 50%. (jumps between up to 60% on occasion, 50% overall, and spikes are super rare for me)...
> 
> ...


I have an M1 MBP w/64gb of RAM, but this is more or less my experience too. Rosetta 2 very stable running LPX.


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## IFM (Aug 1, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> Which ones? Although I don't have a ton, every SF player instrument I have runs fine in Rosetta 2. You have to re-authorize each plugin in Rosetta mode or it behaves like its broken. But once authorized in Rosetta HZS, AR1, Cinematic Soft Piano, Phobos and Symphonic Motions all work fine.


I’m aware of this but I didn’t just drop 7k on a new machine to run it like that. It’s odd some SF plugs work for both like BBCSO but AR1 it won’t. I tried the Hz beta but still not functional


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## jcrosby (Aug 1, 2022)

IFM said:


> I’m aware of this but I didn’t just drop 7k on a new machine to run it like that. It’s odd some SF plugs work for both like BBCSO but AR1 it won’t. I tried the Hz beta but still not functional


Not sure what you mean by 'run it like that'. If you mean Rosetta 2, I guess don't see what the difference is if you can run an entire project, start to final mix, with it enabled. Not sure, but it sounds like you want all plugins to be able to run in both modes; or are there some SF instruments that simply will not run in Rosetta 2?


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## KEM (Aug 1, 2022)

I’m on an M1 Ultra Mac Studio and I’m running Cubase at 48khz/64bit float in Rosetta with no issues, it would run even better if I could run it native but there’s a lot of plugins I’d end up losing


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## davidson (Aug 2, 2022)

Andrew Orkin said:


> This worked great! Thank you. Any chance you could screen grab me your Audio settings? Still a little tweaky on my end even with exclusively Native plugs


Sorry I should have been clear. When I say rosetta causes issues, I mean when running logic in native but have non-native plugs running in rosetta. Running logic itself in rosetta is a lot more stable, but you also lose that amazing speed and power of native logic. I've tried going back to rosetta logic but it feels like I'm using something from the 80s in comparison! You obviously lose access to a lot of plugs if you refuse to use anything non-native, but it's also kind of liberating. I've got 50 or more plugs which I don't have installed due to being rosetta only, and I'm totally over them.

My settings are nothing special. Also, I have the max, not the ultra. It's interesting you're having issues with UAD. I had issues on my previous M1 mini which I suspected was due (in part) to my apollo twin so I dumped it and got a much cheaper M2. As well as having lower latency, its rock solid.


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## jcrosby (Aug 2, 2022)

davidson said:


> Sorry I should have been clear. When I say rosetta causes issues, I mean when running logic in native but have non-native plugs running in rosetta. Running logic itself in rosetta is a lot more stable, but you also lose that amazing speed and power of native logic. I've tried going back to rosetta logic but it feels like I'm using something from the 80s in comparison! You obviously lose access to a lot of plugs if you refuse to use anything non-native, but it's also kind of liberating. I've got 50 or more plugs which I don't have installed due to being rosetta only, and I'm totally over them.
> 
> My settings are nothing special. Also, I have the max, not the ultra. It's interesting you're having issues with UAD. I had issues on my previous M1 mini which I suspected was due (in part) to my apollo twin so I dumped it and got a much cheaper M2. As well as having lower latency, its rock solid.


Maybe it's an M2 optimization issue.... No idea... Once I'd authorized everything in Rosetta though, all plugins (as far as I could tell) showed up in Logic with Rosetta disabled. The main issue for me has been that I only get giant CPU spikes if I leave Logic running natively...

It's true some SF instruments don't work natively (or, at least if they were authorized in Rosetta 1st. SF plugins are also the only case I can recall since 1st getting the machine...)... But I quickly discovered that Logic ran way smoother overall in Rosetta 2.

Even live armed tracks wouldn't spike up even close to the 100% I'd see in native mode... I'm sure I have a fair decent handful of plugins that aren't native, but that shouldn't be an issue based on the tests I did... Even when trying to work with Logic only using native plugins like Kontakt 6 and Omnisphere (latest builds - no other plugins at all...) it didn't matter... Logic was an unwieldy beast, even if non-native plugins were completely ignored...

Maybe it's a combo of plugins... But anyone seeing spikes should at the very least try Rosetta 2 mode in Logic before writing it off. It turned a fairly disappointed impression of my M1 Max MBP - initially trying everything native only - into one that runs circles around my old i9 MBP, despite the fact that it's running Logic using Rosetta 2... (Interestingly I saw very little difference using Live 10 ((which has no Rosetta disabled/enabled option)) and using Live 11 running Native. 5% at most, even then I'd say the difference was even smaller than that...

Something currently seems weird with the current version of macos 12 running natively... The overall consensus seems to be that Rosetta 2, at least for the moment, is generally more stable overall... I imagine this will change soon enough... But for the moment, I see a lot more posts where people find the same experience... At the very least give it a shot if you haven't. Huge difference on my end...

Anyway, I know you'd said that Logic is running smooth for you in Native mode.. That's great, I'm sure this is what all of use would prefer to see... But for anyone that might run into issues where they see spikes with Logic running natively, at the very least try Rosetta 2 enabled and see if you find an overall better experience...


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## jcrosby (Aug 2, 2022)

@davidson, updated the thread before noticing you read it.... I don't doubt you're seeing better performance. I'd love to see the same thing, and it's probably just a combo of you having the 'right' plugins that natively play nicely with Logic for the moment...

Just wanted to leave a note for anyone else that finds they are experiencing unexpected CPU spikes in Logic, even when running only native plugins...


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## davidson (Aug 2, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> Maybe it's an M2 optimization issue.... No idea... Once I'd authorized everything in Rosetta though, all plugins (as far as I could tell) showed up in Logic with Rosetta disabled. The main issue for me has been that I only get giant CPU spikes if I leave Logic running natively...
> 
> It's true some SF instruments don't work natively (or, at least if they were authorized in Rosetta 1st. SF plugins are also the only case I can recall since 1st getting the machine...)... But I quickly discovered that Logic ran way smoother overall in Rosetta 2.
> 
> ...


That sucks that native logic with native plugs causes you issues, it should be the complete opposite right?! I don't suppose you're using UAD too are you?

I also wonder if the studios just dont have the same issues as minis and laptops? My m1 mini was a disaster at times whether I ran logic in native or rosetta, but I put that down to me installing anything and everything (including UADs unsupported software).

I should also add that certain kontakt libraries (output, sound yeti, and some others) DO cause me issues in native. I don't know what it is, but I'm hoping something will be tweaked in kontakt with the next update.


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## jcrosby (Aug 2, 2022)

davidson said:


> That sucks that native logic with native plugs causes you issues, it should be the complete opposite right?! I don't suppose you're using UAD too are you?
> 
> I also wonder if the studios just dont have the same issues as minis and laptops? My m1 mini was a disaster at times whether I ran logic in native or rosetta, but I put that down to me installing anything and everything (including UADs unsupported software).
> 
> I should also add that certain kontakt libraries (output, sound yeti, and some others) DO cause me issues in native. I don't know what it is, but I'm hoping something will be tweaked in kontakt with the next update.


Hardware-wise no, I have a UAD octo PCIe and still looking for the right solution to house it (if it even makes sense at this point)... I am using some of the UADx plugins though.

Totally possible, and that would make sense... And you nailed it, some of the heavier Kontakt libraries would cause the biggest spikes natively that I don't see as frequently with Rosetta 2.

The other weird thing that I noticed (and this is a real head scratcher).... Once a project had enough tracks running the spikes tended to ease off. It's like once Logic was given enough priority things would smooth out somewhat. Overall though I found spikes were more common in native mode.

Maybe it's related to efficiency cores, and once something demands enough power the OS allocates more CPU to Logic? No idea... I do have a ticket open with Logic support though and they've requested diagnostics from me. I included a note describing that, so knock on wood it's something that hasn't been optimized yet, but will be at some point...


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## davidson (Aug 2, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> Maybe it's related to efficiency cores, and once something demands enough power the OS allocates more CPU to Logic? No idea... I do have a ticket open with Logic support though and they've requested diagnostics from me. I included a note describing that, so knock on wood it's something that hasn't been optimized yet, but will be at some point...


Possibly, I have my efficiency cores bypassed in logic. Like you say though, you can just get lucky sometimes with your combination of plugs and hardware, and I seem to have finally hit it.


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## Andrew Orkin (Aug 4, 2022)

davidson said:


> Possibly, I have my efficiency cores bypassed in logic. Like you say though, you can just get lucky sometimes with your combination of plugs and hardware, and I seem to have finally hit it.


How did you bypass the efficiency cores in Logic? I think this may be the move!


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## davidson (Aug 4, 2022)

Andrew Orkin said:


> How did you bypass the efficiency cores in Logic? I think this may be the move!


In preferences -> Audio, choose whatever your number of high-performance cores are in the processing threads dropdown. I think it's set to automatic by default.


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## onnomusic (Aug 4, 2022)

Not sure it helps, but perhaps even just selecting an amount of cores instead of automatic gives less spikes? I remember something like this being the case on intel as well


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## Andrew Orkin (Aug 4, 2022)

Okay so much to my chagrin I’m trying to operate in Rosetta as a last resort to see if I should throw this computer in a lake. 

Problem is I can’t get kontakt 6 (just labeled Kontakt) to show up. Kontakt 5 is there and 6 appears in native mode. Any tips?


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## AlphaCen (Aug 4, 2022)

Andrew Orkin said:


> Okay so much to my chagrin I’m trying to operate in Rosetta as a last resort to see if I should throw this computer in a lake.
> 
> Problem is I can’t get kontakt 6 (just labeled Kontakt) to show up. Kontakt 5 is there and 6 appears in native mode. Any tips?


If you running Logic in native mode and bridging Intel plugins, you have to run Logic in Rosetta, rescan all plugins (which should show up Intel ones). Next time, when you run Logic in native, bridged Intel plugins should be available.

Unless you are running Logic in Rosetta, then I have no clue as to why.


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## Andrew Orkin (Aug 4, 2022)

Yeah it’s not showing up in Rosetta…. Shows up in Native.


AlphaCen said:


> If you running Logic in native mode and bridging Intel plugins, you have to run Logic in Rosetta, rescan all plugins (which should show up Intel ones). Next time, when you run Logic in native, bridged Intel plugins should be available.
> 
> Unless you are running Logic in Rosetta, then I have no clue as to why.


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## jcrosby (Aug 4, 2022)

Andrew Orkin said:


> Yeah it’s not showing up in Rosetta…. Shows up in Native.


Maybe try opening the plugin manager, selecting Kontakt 6, and choosing _Reset & Rescan Selection._


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## davidson (Aug 4, 2022)

What happens if you start a project in native logic using kontakt 6, save it, then open that in rosetta logic? Does it open kontakt 6?


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## Andrew Orkin (Aug 4, 2022)

Nope, it says Kontakt 6 can’t be found. Also in rosetta the plug-in manager can’t see Kontakt 6 (Kontakt) but it is still ur when I run in Native.


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## Andrew Orkin (Aug 12, 2022)

Hey folks,

First off. Thank you all so much for your help. Really digging me outta the trenches here. Got Kontakt 6 working in rosetta FINALLY. But, joyously the GUI in Logic is extremely laggy when in Rosetta mode. Scrolling, dragging, zooming etc. Regardless of buffer size, CPU load, thread count etc. 

Anyone else experienced this? It renders it kinda unusable in big film scoring sessions.


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## jcrosby (Aug 12, 2022)

Andrew Orkin said:


> Hey folks,
> 
> First off. Thank you all so much for your help. Really digging me outta the trenches here. Got Kontakt 6 working in rosetta FINALLY. But, joyously the GUI in Logic is extremely laggy when in Rosetta mode. Scrolling, dragging, zooming etc. Regardless of buffer size, CPU load, thread count etc.
> 
> Anyone else experienced this? It renders it kinda unusable in big film scoring sessions.


I'm on an M1 Max MacBook (but that shouldn't make any difference)....
Not the case at all here running Logic with Rosetta 2, Logic's GUI is snappy and smooth as butter.

If Logic's meters and animations aren't laggy or freezing, and the lagginess happens only when interacting with the UI (scrolling, dragging, etc) that sounds like an issue with your monitor. Like your monitor or TV is only working at 30 Hz which can be brutally laggy and 'jerky'. I used to have this issue with a 4k TV on a previous mac. I've seen posts where people have had issues with specific monitors, TVs, etc so you might want to search and see if anyone else using whatever monitor or TV you have has seen the same issue...


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## Andrew Orkin (Aug 12, 2022)

Ah - I’m at 60 for sure. It also only happens in Rosetta. It’s laggy to the point that I cant work in Rosetta


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## jcrosby (Aug 12, 2022)

Andrew Orkin said:


> Ah - I’m at 60 for sure. It also only happens in Rosetta. It’s laggy to the point that I cant work in Rosetta


Weird. I haven't had any issues like this using Logic with Rosetta. With R2 enabled things have been just as stable as any of my previous macs. Wish I had some answers for you!


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## davidson (Aug 12, 2022)

Andrew Orkin said:


> Ah - I’m at 60 for sure. It also only happens in Rosetta. It’s laggy to the point that I cant work in Rosetta


Its just rosetta - for some people its rock solid and for others its unstable, it depends on your installed plugs, interface, screen; tons of factors. I'm in the unstable camp and Justins in the stable camp. Looks like you need to come on over to native land and either kiss rosetta plugs goodbye and hope the dev releases a silicon version, or wish them bon voyage like I did.


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## Andrew Orkin (Aug 12, 2022)

So dumb question. How do I know if I’ve got Rosetta 2 not 1? I’m trying everything here. So it’s also only on bigger sessions that the GUI freaks. Less than 50/60 tracks and it’s fine


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## cuttime (Aug 12, 2022)

Andrew Orkin said:


> So dumb question. How do I know if I’ve got Rosetta 2 not 1? I’m trying everything here. So it’s also only on bigger sessions that the GUI freaks. Less than 50/60 tracks and it’s fine


The first time you run an Intel only app, you'll get a window dialogue telling you you need to download Rosetta. From then on the app "Get Info" tab will show your choices.

Rosetta 1 was for PowerPC to Intel transitions.


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## jcrosby (Aug 12, 2022)

Andrew Orkin said:


> So dumb question. How do I know if I’ve got Rosetta 2 not 1?


Rosetta 1 hasn't been available for over 15 years. R1 was specifically for translating Power PC applications to Intel.... TL;DR, It's not possible to install R1, only R2.

And just to be sure, if you select the Logic app icon in the applications folder and 'get info' on it you see the option for Open using Rosetta?


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## Abjection (Oct 26, 2022)

Chiming in here to see if anyone has had any headway here? I just recently got a Studio Ultra coming from an i9 iMac, 2019, and it native mode I get waaaaaay more spikes. Alternatively Rosetta is very low CPU.


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## IFM (Oct 26, 2022)

I have not seen this but what plug-in is it happening with? Remember it will run both native and Rosetta simultaneously and I’ve seen that have some issues.


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## Abjection (Oct 26, 2022)

OPUS, BBC spitfire and Kontakt. Basically the CPU is clearly being hit way harder depending on the session.

Here are two videos showing Rosetta vs Native running the same session.






Logic Issues - nick-2092







nick-2092.wistia.com


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## IFM (Oct 26, 2022)

Interesting but I think you might be getting misled. The CPU meter shows what’s left for processing and (this is an educated guess) when you are running under Rosetta it’s not reporting on anything running natively. Check you CPU meters under activity monitor to get a better idea.


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## Abjection (Oct 26, 2022)

Okay Good I'll try that, even still though I am getting pops and crackles in Native that I am not getting in Rosetta


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## davidson (Oct 26, 2022)

Do you have any other plugins running - reverbs, compressors etc? Are they all silicon native? This is a good app to quickly check whether you have any non-native plugs installed https://www.thinkersnacks.com/as-pluginfo.html


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## Abjection (Oct 26, 2022)

Thank you - I actually have that plugin checker, everything Im running is native and up to date in session.


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## davidson (Oct 26, 2022)

Hmmm, I guess the next step would be to run the project with only kontakt, then only bbc, then opus and compare to see if it's one of those causing the issue. I dont have bbc or opus to test, but kontakt runs better in native compared to rosetta on my system (studio max). 

Hope you get to the bottom of it!


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## Abjection (Oct 26, 2022)

Thanks so much that's exactly what Im in the process of doing!


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## davidson (Oct 26, 2022)

Be sure to report your findings here. There's a whole bunch of us with OCD that'd be interested to see the results


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## Abjection (Oct 26, 2022)

Will do ha!


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## robgb (Oct 27, 2022)

It amazes me that M1 etc have been a thing for two years, yet some plugins aren't compatible....


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## IFM (Oct 27, 2022)

robgb said:


> It amazes me that M1 etc have been a thing for two years, yet some plugins aren't compatible....


I've found that a lot have gotten there but many still have some ways to go. When I look with Pluginfo, it's AU primarily and AAX a close second, but VST3...it's weak at best.


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## Abjection (Oct 27, 2022)

I’ve been doing extensive testing with AU and I cannot seem to find out what the cause is here. All of my plugins that I use in session are currently native compatible, I even used pluginfo and temporarily removed every non native plugin from my component folder - yet still, I get pops and crackles intermittently where as running is Rosetta I do not. Very perplexing and frustrating on a machine that cost me nearly 5k…


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## IFM (Oct 27, 2022)

Abjection said:


> I’ve been doing extensive testing with AU and I cannot seem to find out what the cause is here. All of my plugins that I use in session are currently native compatible, I even used pluginfo and temporarily removed every non native plugin from my component folder - yet still, I get pops and crackles intermittently where as running is Rosetta I do not. Very perplexing and frustrating on a machine that cost me nearly 5k…


Are you running samples internally or externally? I went all internal and can run large sessions with no issues. I did test one in rosetta mode, and yes, it also shows about half the usage but spread out across more cores.


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## Abjection (Oct 27, 2022)

Yes I am using them externally - but they’re preloaded into the ram cache, so I wouldn’t think that would make much difference?


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## Andrew Orkin (Oct 27, 2022)

Nope. I'm still in a world of hurt. Rosetta loads up great, but as soon as my sessions get over 100 tracks (pretty much always) the GUI becomes jerky when zooming and navigating. Random spinning wheels when doing simple things like copying regions. On the odd occasion that I try and run Native and the session A. Opens up and B. Doesn't give me the "unstable plugin" dialog, it runs like a dream and is a sign of things to come. Till then I'll pull what little hair I have out.


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## robgb (Oct 27, 2022)

Andrew Orkin said:


> Nope. I'm still in a world of hurt. Rosetta loads up great, but as soon as my sessions get over 100 tracks (pretty much always) the GUI becomes jerky when zooming and navigating. Random spinning wheels when doing simple things like copying regions.


No judgment at all (more wonder than anything else), but I don't think I've ever had a session that was over thirty tracks. I mean, I'm doing orchestral mockups and I can't even imagine reaching a hundred. And, yes, I know that some people go well beyond that.

How did our ancestors survive with a measly 24 analogue tracks?


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## Andrew Orkin (Oct 27, 2022)

robgb said:


> No judgment at all (more wonder than anything else), but I don't think I've ever had a session that was over thirty tracks. I mean, I'm doing orchestral mockups and I can't even imagine reaching a hundred. And, yes, I know that some people go well beyond that.
> 
> How did our ancestors survive with a measly 24 analogue tracks?


I easily ran 300 track sessions on my 2018 Hackintosh build with a bunch of old plugins. It cost me 2k to build in 2018 and was more stable that this current setup. It's time to switch to Cubase. I feel like Logic has run its course for the pro user.


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## robgb (Oct 27, 2022)

Andrew Orkin said:


> I easily ran 300 track sessions on my 2018 Hackintosh build with a bunch of old plugins. It cost me 2k to build in 2018 and was more stable that this current setup. It's time to switch to Cubase. I feel like Logic has run its course for the pro user.


My comment was not about the capabilities of the machine, but of the necessity for so many tracks. I can see a 300 track template, but why on earth would you need so many tracks for a single session?

I ask this without rancor. I'm genuinely curious. To my mind, such a session would not only be unwieldy and difficult to mix, but the musical arrangement would be unnecessarily cluttered. Is the track count high because of aux busses? FX? Are you double and triple tracking everything? I mean, your average orchestra only has sixty or so instruments.


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## Andrew Orkin (Oct 27, 2022)

I run full episodes of series and sometimes entire features in one session. How I came up working so kinda stuck in this methodology.


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## Abjection (Oct 31, 2022)

To anyone who cares, I've been going back and forth non stop with these m1 issues. I have been able to either fully solve my pops / clicks / logic restarting playback due to cpu overload of a single core issue, or at the very least reduce them extremely. Here are the steps I took to investigate this and what I've come to understand.

I purchased an m1 MacBook Air, and I migrated my entire system from the Mac Studio onto it.

I then purchased a Razor thunderbolt dock -- that way I could easily connect every peripheral device, including my audio interface, which is a UA Apollo X6 - thunderbolt 3 version, to both setups, by simply plugging the single dock connector cable into either system, bringing them into theoretically the same environment, just on two different machines.

I then ran sessions in which I was having intermittent audio issues as described above, on both machines. I was trying anything I could to cause the machine to pop / click or restart playback -- often times this would happen if I was typing, using a browser or copy / pasting / editing within the DAW during playback.

I was able to make these issues happen on both systems. So, from there I began narrowing down the devices. I tested on both systems with my USB hub disconnected - it still happened. I tried it on both systems with the monitor I was using disconnected - it still happened. I tried it with no midi controllers or external hard drives connected - it still happened.

I then disconnected my Universal Audio Apollo X6 - connected via thunderbolt 3 cable, and I attempted to run just the session listening from the headphone jack of my laptop, after about 25 minutes of testing I could not reproduce the issue.

I then tried the same test with the Mac Studio, again, into the headphone output, and no UA device, tested it for a good 25-30 minutes, no issues.

I then re-connected the UA to both systems and within the first playback on both systems, I was able to re-create the issues.

I then tried an alternate thunderbolt 3 cable, the issues happened again.

I then updated the laptop to Ventura - as the Studio is my work machine and I cannot risk it potentially running even worse due to having ongoing projects. Ventura on the m1 air made no such difference as far as the audio issues were going. They happened with the UA, and did not happen when it was disconnected.

I then went to Guitar Center, purchased a cheap Focusrite 2i2 3rd gen, USB C device. Ran my monitors into it and I've been playing the problem sessions with it and have yet to hear any audio issues. Across both systems. I've even had it on play during the entire time I was typing this and still haven't had the issue happen.

I've called apple support and filed a ticket with UA. Apple told me that it is on UA and not them to fix the issue, as when doing playback with the built in audio output, there are no issues.

I'm awaiting on UAs response. I hope this can help anyone else and I'd love to hear anyone else thoughts on the situation and testing I've done.

Thanks,


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## IFM (Nov 1, 2022)

Abjection said:


> I'm awaiting on UAs response. I hope this can help anyone else and I'd love to hear anyone else thoughts on the situation and testing I've done.
> 
> Thanks,


Thanks for the update. I'm assuming you are running the newest driver for the UA and confirmed it is a native driver? I have the Apollo x8 and do not have these issues but clearly, it is your particular interface that is having problems. You should be on version 10.1.1.


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## Abjection (Nov 1, 2022)

IFM said:


> Thanks for the update. I'm assuming you are running the newest driver for the UA and confirmed it is a native driver? I have the Apollo x8 and do not have these issues but clearly, it is your particular interface that is having problems. You should be on version 10.1.1.


Hi there, yes I am working with the latest Native drivers. Are you by chance working with Logic? My suspicion is it is somehow related to logic, Monterey and the ua thunderbolt.


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## styledelk (Nov 1, 2022)

Abjection said:


> To anyone who cares, I've been going back and forth non stop with these m1 issues. I have been able to either fully solve my pops / clicks / logic restarting playback due to cpu overload of a single core issue, or at the very least reduce them extremely. Here are the steps I took to investigate this and what I've come to understand.
> 
> I purchased an m1 MacBook Air, and I migrated my entire system from the Mac Studio onto it.
> 
> ...


I've had my x6 working "fine" on any Cubase project on my Mac Studio so far. The biggest issue I have is that (at least under some builds of Ventura), if I leave Cubase on overnight and the computer goes to sleep, it restarts. This doesn't happen without the x6 as the selected interface.


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## IFM (Nov 1, 2022)

Abjection said:


> Hi there, yes I am working with the latest Native drivers. Are you by chance working with Logic? My suspicion is it is somehow related to logic, Monterey and the ua thunderbolt.


Yes I just did most of an album with it. I also used Cubase quite a bit with no issues either.


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## Abjection (Nov 1, 2022)

IFM said:


> Yes I just did most of an album with it. I also used Cubase quite a bit with no issues either.


Interesting it must either be related to my x6, or the ua Logic Monterey and some other random piece to the puzzle…


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## khollister (Nov 1, 2022)

Apollo X8, Logic, M1Max MBP and MacOS 12.6 - no issues here.


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## Abjection (Nov 1, 2022)

styledelk said:


> I've had my x6 working "fine" on any Cubase project on my Mac Studio so far. The biggest issue I have is that (at least under some builds of Ventura), if I leave Cubase on overnight and the computer goes to sleep, it restarts. This doesn't happen without the x6 as the selected interface.


Is your x6 the thunderbolt 3 version?


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## styledelk (Nov 2, 2022)

Abjection said:


> Is your x6 the thunderbolt 3 version?


Yes. Plugged directly into a Mac Studio Ultra.


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## Abjection (Nov 2, 2022)

styledelk said:


> Yes. Plugged directly into a Mac Studio Ultra.


Have you used it in Logic?


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## styledelk (Nov 2, 2022)

Abjection said:


> Have you used it in Logic?


No, although when I move to a new project it'll likely be in either Logic or Studio One 6.


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## Abjection (Nov 2, 2022)

Please do let me know - as I've done trouble shooting on every option and have now even tired out two different alternate interfaces and the issues all go away as soon as the Apollo is unplugged. I've used a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 and now a UAD Volt 1, and every issue I had is resolved. As soon as the X6 goes back in the issues return.


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## khollister (Nov 3, 2022)

Abjection said:


> Please do let me know - as I've done trouble shooting on every option and have now even tired out two different alternate interfaces and the issues all go away as soon as the Apollo is unplugged. I've used a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 and now a UAD Volt 1, and every issue I had is resolved. As soon as the X6 goes back in the issues return.


Do you have any other TB devices connected?


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## Abjection (Nov 3, 2022)

no I’ve got a usb c monitor connected but that has no issues either.


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## khollister (Nov 3, 2022)

So I'm pretty sure it is NOT a systemic bug in the UA drivers as several of us here are using Apollo's on M1 without issue and there is nothing like this in the UA forum I read regularly. I suppose it could be a TB controller HW/FW issue in the Studio - have you tried different TB ports (each port has a dedicated controller I believe)? It could be some Core Audio or TB OS SW glitch - perhaps installing Ventura might be an interesting data point? And you might contact UA to see if there is a way to reset/reload firmware in the Apollo. And finally trying a different Apollo or M1 Mac would be especially useful if you know someone locally to help.


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## Abjection (Nov 5, 2022)

I’ve reached out to UA but there is no firmware reset or anything of the like possible. I’ve now tried the Focusrite 2i2, the UA volt 1 - which UA confirmed with me runs the same drivers as the Apollo - outside of it being Thunderbolt, and the Focusrite 18i20 - all usb interfaces and all of the audio issues go away. As soon as I plug the apollo x6 Thunderbolt into my studio the intermittent issues return. I’ve tired this across two different m1 setups.

Everything seems to be pointing to the Apollo or Thunderbolt audio interfaces in general with logic being the issue.


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## khollister (Nov 6, 2022)

Abjection said:


> I’ve reached out to UA but there is no firmware reset or anything of the like possible. I’ve now tried the Focusrite 2i2, the UA volt 1 - which UA confirmed with me runs the same drivers as the Apollo - outside of it being Thunderbolt, and the Focusrite 18i20 - all usb interfaces and all of the audio issues go away. As soon as I plug the apollo x6 Thunderbolt into my studio the intermittent issues return. I’ve tired this across two different m1 setups.
> 
> Everything seems to be pointing to the Apollo or Thunderbolt audio interfaces in general with logic being the issue.


I get it but the issue doesn’t exist for many of us with that combination. You said you tried your Apollo on another M1 - is it possible to try a different Apollo?


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## Abjection (Nov 6, 2022)

I wish I could try another Apollo but I do not have access to one nor do I have the money to spend 3k for another x6. I wish I could…I just can’t come up with any other solution.


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## Andrew Orkin (Nov 7, 2022)

So I’ve managed a solve that you might attempt. My logic was incredibly buggy running at scaled resolution. Not just graphically sluggish but all sorts of weird spinning wheels when duplicating regions, hiding tracks, all sorts.

Just a thought - but try running at default resolution if you aren’t already. Somehow solved a bunch of weird bugs. That in combination with 10.7.5 update and things are tentatively hopeful.


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## Abjection (Nov 7, 2022)

Thanks I’ll try that. Did it make any difference in audio issues at all?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 12, 2022)

It sounds like the common thread here is the audio interface?

I run Logic in native mode and it’s been great.


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## styledelk (Nov 12, 2022)

UAD released new drivers this week. Maybe some improvement?


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## colony nofi (Nov 13, 2022)

Oh man what a serious trip.

I've been chasing my tail on various issues with M1 Max and Ultra machines, but nothing like yours (which kinda sorta feel a tiny bit like the specific hardware might have a fault? Or not....)

Had issues with Spitfire a tonne, but also waaaaay more crashes inside nuendo than I've ever had. 
I've stopped using my ultra just for a while (on a project that I need to use my laptop) and suddenly having issues with my Caldigit thunderbolt TS3+ just stopping working for a few seconds and then starting again.

Hair being pulled out? Who has any hair left.

Anyway - from my end I take a lot of the blame since I jumped into using these machines before I qualified them with all the software we use in our studios. And there are some incredible benefits in using these systems. But I still have a long way to go, and no break in schedule until possibly march next year to figure things out. Until then, I carry on with crashes every hour or two on *certain* projects. (Suspecting some Plugin alliance plugs, as well as a fav from Freakshow industries)

Maybe I'll try take a few days off and look for the standard potential plugin issues... or try a different interface (am on babyface at home right now, but will grab a focusrite thunderbolt Dante interface from work to try)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 14, 2022)

One thing: my understanding is that plug-ins run in their own threads. So you can run the M version of Logic and still load Rosetta plug-ins.

Ergo if you have to use the Rosetta version of Logic, that would imply that the audio interface/how it interacts with CoreAudio is the issue (because Logic isn't crashing with every interface).


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## khollister (Nov 14, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> One thing: my understanding is that plug-ins run in their own threads. So you can run the M version of Logic and still load Rosetta plug-ins.
> 
> Ergo if you have to use the Rosetta version of Logic, that would imply that the audio interface/how it interacts with CoreAudio is the issue (because Logic isn't crashing with every interface).


I agree that would make sense except several of us are using UA Apollo interfaces with no issues with Logic. I still suspect either a corrupted UA driver install or Apollo or Mac TB hardware/firmware issue.

Curious if installing the new UA drivers changes his results because I believe I recall a firmware update of my Apollo as part of installing the new UAD software. It could be a flaky TB controller in the Apollo as well.

The first Caldigit Element TB hub I purchased would not reliably stay connected. The new unit they exchanged for it works perfectly - TB hardware issue


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## Abjection (Nov 14, 2022)

Hey everyone, I've got a bit of an update here. I have been speaking a great deal back and forth with Apple.

Apple asked me to create a system report, and send it over to Apples own engineering team, immediately after experiencing one of these issues in Logic. I did just that, and I’ve just received a call back from them. 

What they told me is that the system report showed an issue with the Spitfire BBC Symphony Orchestra plugin, as well as Kontakt and that they are causing system interrupts. They told me to get in touch with Spitfire and NI, as they would need to fix this bug and that this this was the issue :

“With apple / logic there is an issue with the JUCE framework and Kontakt / BBC Symphony Orchestra plugin. these plugins are causing an exception that causes the au hosting service to crash.”

I've reached out to both developers but I still suspect the issue as something deeper, as I have definitely had issues not using those two plugins. Also, reverting back to 10.6.1 has made the issues 98% improved all around.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 14, 2022)

Abjection said:


> as well as Kontakt and that they are causing system interrupts.



Kontakt 7?

If so, I wonder whether there's something in one or more libraries' scripting doing that, because I haven't experienced or read about it crashing Logic 10.7 anywhere else.


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