# Is Ludwig Van Beethoven Overrated as a Composer?



## Parsifal666 (Dec 23, 2018)

After watching the latest "how great is?" thread do the usual crash-and-burn, I just couldn't resist the temptation for an even more ludicrously dumb thread.

And ya can't get mad at me 'cuz it's Christmas, yo!

Speaking of, here's my opportunity to wish everyone here absolutely Merriest Holiday Wishes!


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## PeterN (Dec 23, 2018)




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## Jaap (Dec 23, 2018)

Who?


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## tokatila (Dec 23, 2018)

Went through an hour long compilation of Beethoven's compositions and, yes, while there are some interesting and creative compositions (e.g. “5th Symphony”), plenty (I find) is simple chord progressions with excellent orchestration.

Not trying to poke on van Beethoven here, and with all respect, but what is the opinion in the community?

I know Verta has criticism on the unrealistic compositions, from an orchestral perspective, but thats not the issue here really, could it be that Beethoven just does quite simple chord progressions sound amazingly good in the commercial field?

Is this question allowed to ask, or am I going too close to something holy here?


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## PeterN (Dec 23, 2018)

Im so sad Beethoven has to put up with such a rude thread like this.

Regards,

The Beethoven Fan Club


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Dec 23, 2018)

Never heard of the guy. He does trailers mainly?


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## PeterN (Dec 23, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Never heard of the guy. He does trailers mainly?



No. You need to hear them in a dark german chamber while having a depressive episode to understand them.


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## zolhof (Dec 23, 2018)

Merry Christmas right back at you!


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## Kurosawa (Dec 23, 2018)

zolhof said:


>



That video came instantly to my mind, while reading that thread title.


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## bryla (Dec 23, 2018)

Was just about to post that video!


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## StillLife (Dec 23, 2018)

Listening to his music you can only come up with one conclusion: the guy must have been deaf.


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## zolhof (Dec 23, 2018)

bryla said:


> Was just about to post that video!



One of my favorite videos on the Internet. No wonder Goss rhymes with boss.


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## SergeD (Dec 23, 2018)

Well, he's never been the same since he's dead, my 0.02 cents

Merry Christmas everybody.


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## PeterN (Dec 23, 2018)

But he was very humble.


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## bryla (Dec 23, 2018)

This is the face of the guy who doesn't care what you think about him.


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## JohnG (Dec 23, 2018)

When he was seven years old, my son took Beethoven as his "historical figure" in a school exercise. The concept was that visitors would interview the students in their personas as these historical figures.

Jack chose Beethoven hoping that he could avoid doing any actual work learning about Beethoven, responding instead to all questions with, "What? what?" "Can you speak up?"


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## Daniel James (Dec 23, 2018)

No.


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 23, 2018)

tokatila said:


> Went through an hour long compilation of Beethoven's compositions and, yes, while there are some interesting and creative compositions (e.g. “5th Symphony”), plenty (I find) is simple chord progressions with excellent orchestration.
> 
> Not trying to poke on van Beethoven here, and with all respect, but what is the opinion in the community?
> 
> ...



This is the kind of post I need to start the holidays off laughing. It's the main reason I started this.

Thanks, bud. I needed it. Really. My holidays are going to suck ass, so I needed a grin or ten.


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## ism (Dec 23, 2018)

Wasn't his 9th total commercial flop?


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## HelixK (Dec 23, 2018)

Quality shitposting.


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## Symfoniq (Dec 23, 2018)

Okay, I’ll pour on some gasoline: I’m pretty sure Leonard Bernstein had some controversial things to say about Beethoven’s compositional skills. Can’t find the video right now, but it’s out there.


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## dgburns (Dec 23, 2018)

Beethoven would have fit in just fine today. He would be scoring films for sure.

I heard he counted his coffee beans to the number for a perfect cup of coffee. 

And he had a wicked bad disposition. I can hear him now complaining about the constant daw crashes and overly demanding producers.

But gawd damn, that moonlight sonata


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## Paul T McGraw (Dec 23, 2018)

It is impossible to over-rate Beethoven. He is the gold standard by which all other composers are measured and usually found wanting. His gigantic influence on western culture and western art music was so great that without him the entire subsequent history of classical music would have taken a different course.


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## Nao Gam (Dec 23, 2018)

Let's be honest if he was alive today he'd be making some mean death metal


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## zolhof (Dec 23, 2018)

Nao Gam said:


> Let's be honest if he was alive today he'd be making some mean death metal



Shostakovich: hold my beer.


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## Tatu (Dec 23, 2018)




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## Nao Gam (Dec 23, 2018)

zolhof said:


> Shostakovich: hold my beer.



I proposed an "abused" hard playing cello library to Christian Henson once when he asked for Spitfire library ideas on youtube. This is sort of what I had in mind.
Although after hearing the CSSS demos I was pleasantly surprised, a must for metal, even more so than the ensemble. Can you say next library purchase once I'm not broke? Not anytime soon


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## Loïc D (Dec 23, 2018)

No.

He’s definitely a super nice dog.


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## Olfirf (Dec 23, 2018)

If I was religious, this is how the question "is the author of the New Testament overrated" would feel like!
Seriously, Beethoven and Bach and some other guys proved themselves against the test of time. no film music composer did - especially those who are still alive!


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## gregh (Dec 23, 2018)

I don't think Beethoven is over-rated, but he was no Hans Zimmer - for example shamelessly recycled his own material


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 23, 2018)

It's been a lot of fun seeing you all here, but I mostly just wanted to wish you all the best. Not just for this season, but for all. VI-control ROCKS!


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## Michel Simons (Dec 23, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> It's been a lot of fun seeing you all here, but I mostly just wanted to wish you all the best. Not just for this season, but for all. VI-control ROCKS!



Thanks, and the same to you, but...

Back on topic. I liked his Ride of the Valkyries, but was disappointed to hear that most of that was written by ghostwriters.


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## bcarwell (Dec 23, 2018)

Exercise for the reader: compose a four note motif, three notes of which must be identical. Then write a symphony movement based upon it lasting several minutes, and make it entertaining and interesting. Then tell me Beethoven sucks.


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## leon chevalier (Dec 23, 2018)

Beethoven does quantize too much, and use too much compression on his master bus : unrealistic music !


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## MaxOctane (Dec 23, 2018)

I took the plunge on Beethoven Strings finally. Who needs that many mics?? But anyway, my biggest beef with this library is it’s just not what people would usually associate with Beethoven. I want that bombastic 5th Symphony opening, something that will knock me out of my chair. *That’s *Beethoven! I want to hold down a key and Ludwig Van steps out of the monitor and slap my face with his wig!


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## TGV (Dec 23, 2018)

I do think that Beethoven was not the greatest colorist. He couldn't of course have written anything like Ravel. Beethoven subjected the orchestration to the form, IMO, but still did so with great effect, albeit less subtle than e.g. Mozart. But Bernstein's other points are highly exaggerated indeed. If one were to pick apart every uninspired bar from the Cantatas, and put that next to the letters where he complains about his wages, one could make Bach look like a plodding clerk without a grain of musical talent.


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## Nao Gam (Dec 24, 2018)

bcarwell said:


> Exercise for the reader: compose a four note motif, three notes of which must be identical. Then write a symphony movement based upon it lasting several minutes, and make it entertaining and interesting. Then tell me Beethoven sucks.


I'm a massive noob but give till summer max and you got it. You know what I'll put it in my sig


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## Jaap (Dec 24, 2018)

He is btw still quite a busy chap! Though he seems to take everything that comes on his path... also quite a lot of B movies and series, but guess it pays the bill.

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0002727/


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## PeterN (Dec 24, 2018)

Beethoven was very humble and I have listened to his ostinata symphony when I had sex first time, over and over again, and all of you who criticize him are a bunch of twats.


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 24, 2018)

MaxOctane said:


> I took the plunge on Beethoven Strings finally. Who needs that many mics?? But anyway, my biggest beef with this library is it’s just not what people would usually associate with Beethoven. I want that bombastic 5th Symphony opening, something that will knock me out of my chair. *That’s *Beethoven! I want to hold down a key and Ludwig Van steps out of the monitor and slap my face with his wig!



(dying) You rule, Max.


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 24, 2018)

PeterN said:


> Beethoven was very humble and I have listened to his ostinata symphony when I had sex first time, over and over again, and all of you who criticize him are a bunch of twats.



I think more than a few folks here are just having fun, Peter. Beethoven doesn't need us to defend him...just go to a University music course, or check the schedules of the biggest Symphony Orchestras. He's not going away. 

There are folks whom believe all people involved in music are in the shadow of the 9th, and while I would rather offer up too the entirety of LVB's late-era output, there's truth to that. The 9th remains the high bar to one heck of a lot of people whom would know better than any of us...

of course, there has been some truly _*terrific*_ music since (much of which I personally love).


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## PeterN (Dec 24, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> I think more than a few folks here are just having fun, Peter.



Yea, but dont even think Im upset. Im having fun too. If holy cow HZ wouldnt occasionally be around I would hardly have got started yet by tearing down the idol. If 99.9% here quote the same phrase it must be a fuckin bubble. Or a cult.


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 24, 2018)

PeterN said:


> Yea, but dont even think Im upset. Im having fun too. If holy cow HZ wouldnt occasionally be around I would hardly have got started yet by tearing down the idol. If 99.9% here quote the same phrase it must be a fuckin bubble. Or a cult.



You have a valid point and I agree, this thread is mostly about just being goofy and light-hearted for the holidays. And I wish you a terrific holiday, my friend.


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## PeterN (Dec 24, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> You have a valid point and I agree, this thread is mostly about just being goofy and light-hearted for the holidays. And I wish you a terrific holiday, my friend.



Thanks man, you too.


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## FinGael (Dec 24, 2018)

What movies has this mister Van Beetleoven chap scored? I recognize the name from somewhere...


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## tokatila (Dec 24, 2018)

Perhaps the name most synonymous with classical scoring, Ludwig Van Beethoven, has not only composed some of the most memorable pieces in recent years. His daring instrument selection and use of unusual techniques have given his scores a distinctive reputation for making the unexpected sound like it couldn’t have been anything else.

So, of course, when the opportunity arose for Spitfire Audio to collaborate with Mr. Beethoven, we crumbled with excitement. We hope to have developed a unique library that provides working composers with a broad variety of new sounds and possibilities, albeit rooted in the genius of Beethoven and his approach to orchestral scoring.

This isn’t an ‘old style’ library. We’ve worked closely with Mr. Beethoven to examine his most famous scores and understand what makes his work so special. With Ludwig Van Strings (LVS), we offer you a string library so ambitious and exciting that you’re sure to unlock areas of creativity you didn’t imagine possible.

With these sounds at your fingertips, you will start to think differently about the usually boring orchestral strings. For this library, we returned to the luxury of Lyndhurst Hall at Air Studios, which means Ludwig Van Strings shares the acoustic DNA of Spitfire’s orchestral catalogue, and will work hand in hand with those libraries.

_“When you gather large string forces it is like the thread count with German cotton sheets; the higher the count, the silkier the feel. Ludwig Van Strings offers an oceanic patina of strings and articulations. Where some techniques are often angular, here they suddenly take on a fresh beauty; try out the Col Legno Trattos, a totally unique sound.” _– Christian Henson


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## jamwerks (Dec 24, 2018)

Great thread title!


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## ism (Dec 24, 2018)

tokatila said:


> Perhaps the name most synonymous with classical scoring, Ludwig Van Beethoven, has not only composed some of the most memorable pieces in recent years. His daring instrument selection and use of unusual techniques have given his scores a distinctive reputation for making the unexpected sound like it couldn’t have been anything else.
> 
> So, of course, when the opportunity arose for Spitfire Audio to collaborate with Mr. Beethoven, we crumbled with excitement. We hope to have developed a unique library that provides working composers with a broad variety of new sounds and possibilities, albeit rooted in the genius of Beethoven and his approach to orchestral scoring.
> 
> ...





See you think you're joking, but I now I want his library very, very badly.


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## Vik (Dec 24, 2018)

ism said:


> Wasn't his 9th total commercial flop?


http://www.failurethebook.com/2014/02/25/beethovens-enormous-failure/

Re. Bernstein's comments on Beethoven... he's somehow criticising him for using harmonies (with reference to the Allegretto in his 7th symphony) that 'any child could play'. What a poor attempt of criticising one of Beethovens most original and memorable pieces!


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## DavidY (Dec 24, 2018)

MaxOctane said:


> I took the plunge on Beethoven Strings finally. Who needs that many mics?? But anyway, my biggest beef with this library is it’s just not what people would usually associate with Beethoven. I want that bombastic 5th Symphony opening, something that will knock me out of my chair. *That’s *Beethoven! I want to hold down a key and Ludwig Van steps out of the monitor and slap my face with his wig!


And it took him 9 symphonies, *NINE!* before introducing a choir!


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## Markus Kohlprath (Dec 24, 2018)

Jaap said:


> Who?


Hm? If I look on the name I would say just another one of these wannabe musicians from the netherlands.
With this dumbest post I ever made in this forum I wish merry christmas to everyone.


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## mikeh-375 (Dec 24, 2018)

bcarwell said:


> Exercise for the reader: compose a four note motif, three notes of which must be identical. Then write a symphony movement based upon it lasting several minutes, and make it entertaining and interesting. Then tell me Beethoven sucks.



He needs better orchestral loops than just the 4 note jobs he used in the 5th symphony.


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 24, 2018)

mikeh-375 said:


> He needs better orchestral loops than just the 4 note jobs he used in the 5th symphony.



Yeah! _*GIVE*_ it to that piker!


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## CT (Dec 24, 2018)

tokatila said:


> Perhaps the name most synonymous with classical scoring, Ludwig Van Beethoven, has not only composed some of the most memorable pieces in recent years. His daring instrument selection and use of unusual techniques have given his scores a distinctive reputation for making the unexpected sound like it couldn’t have been anything else.
> 
> So, of course, when the opportunity arose for Spitfire Audio to collaborate with Mr. Beethoven, we crumbled with excitement. We hope to have developed a unique library that provides working composers with a broad variety of new sounds and possibilities, albeit rooted in the genius of Beethoven and his approach to orchestral scoring.
> 
> ...



Featuring stunning articulations we believe have never been sampled before, from the dramatic Power Legato to the powerful Drama Staccatos. This library is the missing component in your arsenal, giving your string productions that edge of Romantic angst they've been missing, and your multiple false endings an air of Beethovinian authenticity.


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## ism (Dec 24, 2018)

miket said:


> Featuring stunning articulations we believe have never been sampled before, from the dramatic Power Legato to the powerful Drama Staccatos. This library is the missing component in your arsenal, giving your string productions that edge of Romantic angst they've been missing, and your multiple false endings an air of Beethovinian authenticity.



Of course I’m also going to need a British Romantic Angst Toolkit to go with this.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Dec 24, 2018)

FinGael said:


> What movies has this mister Van Beetleoven chap scored?


His score for Die Hard was rockin'.


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## mikeh-375 (Dec 24, 2018)

Ism...we brits where really crap in the Romantic period, unless you're after samples of drinking songs, cliched operatic nonsense with uptight Victorian crotchets, or should that be crotches....?


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## LinusW (Dec 24, 2018)

No.


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## Jaap (Dec 24, 2018)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> Hm? If I look on the name I would say just another one of these wannabe musicians from the netherlands.
> With this dumbest post I ever made in this forum I wish merry christmas to everyone.



Yeah those Dutchies... Merry Christmas too Markus!

And for the record I love Beethoven. His last String quartets are so shockingly beautiful and well composed!


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## Vardaro (Dec 24, 2018)

Orchestration? I have played viola in most of his symphonies, and from the "centre" of the orchestra, I am continually delighted by the subtle variations in voice doubling and timbre.

Melody, harmony? Often apparently simple to the limit of banal, but his genius lies in their timing.

Also, his symphonies and piano sonatas are his "public" side; delve into the string quartets, where there is much more density and power.


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## jbuhler (Dec 24, 2018)

Vardaro said:


> Orchestration? I have played viola in most of his symphonies, and from the "centre" of the orchestra, I am continually delighted by the subtle variations in voice doubling and timbre.
> 
> Melody, harmony? Often apparently simple to the limit of banal, but his genius lies in their timing.
> 
> Also, his symphonies and piano sonatas are his "public" side; delve into the string quartets, where there is much more density and power.


Yes, for the big Beethoven Strings library SF had to go back into Air and record the quartet articulations because of the uproar when the Strings library was first released without them (the update hasn’t yet appeared). Still all would have been forgiven if they’d just called the library the Beethoven “Freude” Strings. But without that clear indication in their marketing everyone was of course expecting the library to easily produce the quartet sound Ludwig made famous in his Grosse Fuga.


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## novicecomposer (Dec 24, 2018)

Well, this guy was different. While everybody else was writing sweet little tunes he started expressing his emotions via music, providing the world with a new style of music they never heard before, and his music completely changed how people think about music down the road. Of course, you can also try something totally new but creating something that's completely new and also actually works at the same time is difficult. Oh, also, try to write something in your little DAW with earplugs on, just by looking at midi notes, not hearing them.


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## Babe (Dec 29, 2018)

I just thumbed through the Bernstein Video grabbing bits and pieces. My theory teacher, back in 1971 said the same thing. Not the best orchestrator, not the best melodist, not the best harmonist, but every note was perfect.


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## fixxer49 (Dec 29, 2018)

Babe said:


> I just thumbed through the Bernstein Video grabbing bits and pieces. My theory teacher, back in 1971 said the same thing. Not the best orchestrator, not the best melodist, not the best harmonist, but every note was perfect.


They’re both just quoting/parroting Rimsky-Korsakov (and it's usually misunderstood or misinterpreted out of context.)


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 30, 2018)

Bernstein was just making a grab for attention, he was actually a _huge_ admirer of LvB, just as any learned musician/composer/conductor is.


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## fixxer49 (Dec 30, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> Bernstein was just making a grab for attention, he was actually a _huge_ admirer of LvB, just as any learned musician/composer/conductor is.


Yes, of course. I should’ve elaborated.


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## pinki (Dec 30, 2018)

Hate to say it but....yes. (as in overrated)
Much prefer Mozart and in particular Haydn..whom he got most of it from! 
Subtle he ain't. I think it's _hilarious_ what Bernstein is saying..and what a drama queen! (takes one to know one!)

Some slow movements of the piano concertos I adore but oh that general over use of cadence is insane. And that spinning a whole symphony from 4 notes nonsense...so boring.
Said in the holiday fun spirit!


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## Paul Grymaud (Dec 30, 2018)

*What the hell are they talking 'bout ?*




Don't they like the way I play piano ?


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## Paul Grymaud (Dec 30, 2018)

Don't worry, Ludwie, I like your music


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## InLight-Tone (Dec 30, 2018)

I didn't know he had dreadlocks...


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## Leon Portelance (Dec 31, 2018)

Beethoven was the greatest composer ever.


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## Tatu (Dec 31, 2018)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> His score for Die Hard was rockin'.


Well, they hired Sibelius for the sequel, so he should've done a bit better job.


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 31, 2018)

pinki said:


> Hate to say it but....yes. (as in overrated)
> Much prefer Mozart and in particular Haydn..whom he got most of it from!
> Subtle he ain't. I think it's _hilarious_ what Bernstein is saying..and what a drama queen! (takes one to know one!)
> 
> ...



As I mentioned earlier, hilarious stuff like this is the reason I started this thread (and yes, I also mean this in the holiday fun spirit.)


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## luke_7 (Dec 31, 2018)

My God, what a timing just at the end of 2018 you won the first prize for the worst entry that took place not only this year but in the entire history of this forum. Bravissimo Parsifal666 Bravissimo


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 31, 2018)

luke_7 said:


> My God, what a timing just at the end of 2018 you won the first prize for the worst entry that took place not only this year but in the entire history of this forum. Bravissimo Parsifal666 Bravissimo



It's what I live for, my friend.


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## Studio E (Dec 31, 2018)

He was ok as a composer, but I liked him even more in WestWorld.


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## Studio E (Dec 31, 2018)

By the way, the post is truly "Fartissimo!"


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## Brian2112 (Dec 31, 2018)

I think the 9th is the single greatest achievement in human history. 
The instrumental section of Freewill by Rush is up there too.


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## Leon Portelance (Dec 31, 2018)

Brian2112 said:


> I think the 9th is the single greatest achievement in human history.



I agree.


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## thov72 (Jan 1, 2019)

_Signor Abbate! io sono, io sono,
io sono ammalato,
Santo Padre! vieni e date mi
la benedizione, la benedizione.
Hol' sie der Teufel, wenn sie nicht kommen,
hol' sie der Teufel, wenn sie nicht kommen! Hol' sie der Teufel._

Man, a whole lotta whining and....this guy had some tantrums 

Had he lived in this century he would have probably founded a band called LouVanEscene.


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