# For those who use a separate ProTools "print rig":



## charlieclouser (Mar 25, 2017)

If you, like me, still use a separate ProTools system as a "print rig" to record the output of your main DAW, you might be interested in the new Antelope Audio Orion32-HD interface that has Mini-DigiLink ports for direct connection to a ProTools HDX card, HD-Native card, or HD-Native Thunderbolt box.

This $3,500 box has *both* the DigiLink ports *AND* USBv3 ports for direct connection to non-ProTools native DAWs. The truly amazing thing is that you can connect *two* computers at once to a single interface! Your main DAW would connect to the USBv3 port, and your ProTools print rig would connect to the DigiLink ports, and the unit will route 64 channels of audio between the two *internally*. This eliminates the need to have a MADI output interface on your native DAW connected to an Avid MADI interface on your print rig. The pair of Mini-DigiLink ports is good for 64 channels to ProTools, and the USBv3 connection is good for 64 channels to the native host.

For fans of "Requiem For a Dream" this is basically "ass-to-ass" in the digital world!

The hardware analog, ADAT, and SPDIF i/o connectors on the back of the Antelope can be freely routed and accessed by both computers *at once*, even while the internal audio pathways are in use. This lets you do... well, a lot of cool stuff, like set up routing presets that will send either the output of your DAW or print rig to the speaker outputs, or even use the internal mixer to combine the outputs of *both* machines and send them to the monitors.

I was skeptical at first, but my buddy who's got 9x 192 interfaces on his PT rig, a separate native DAW machine, and tons of analog outboard just finished a week-long testing session and it all works. This is the guy who has the Synclaviers and pretty "golden ears" and he reports that the audio quality of the Antelope's A>D/D>A is *much* better than his ancient 192's (not surprising) - according to him the difference is *not* subtle and is the best A>D he's heard yet. Build quality is top notch, there are no internal cooling fans on the unit, and it's one whole rack space high. The Orion32-HD has 32 channels of analog line ins and outs on DB-25, as well as 16 channels of ADAT, one set of SPDIF, connections for normal word clock and Antelope's "10m" super-clock, and a dedicated stereo pair of monitor outputs with "extra special" D>A and analog circuitry. Unfortunately, there are no headphone outs, 1/4" inputs, or guitar inputs or any of that other convenient stuff.

These interfaces run on an FPGA chip array that powers the internal routing and mixing engine and also offers a suite of extremely low-latency plugins run on that hardware and emulate vintage eq, compressors, and guitar amps. However, I believe that these plugins are not accessed within the DAW in the normal manner, they are inserted on any i/o stream within the unit itself. Sort of like UAD's "Unison" deal - except the full selection of Antelope's FPGA plugins are *free of charge* to owners of the interfaces.

The drag with Antelope is that they are made and serviced in Sofia, Bulgaria, and documentation is slim to nonexistent. Some operations are not obvious unless you're a seasoned expert at wrassling with i/o routing matrices etc. Also, some delay-compensation setup pages are not pre-set to accurately emulate and correct for the inherent delay in the original 192 interfaces it's emulating - my buddy had to Skype with the guys in Bulgaria to get it all lined up for parallel processing with no phase errors. In addition, per-channel analog level trims are not available on trimmer screws like on the 192's, and currently the level trim is global-only (dumb!) but this is likely to change very soon, as my buddy has become sort of the de-facto beta tester in Los Angeles, and is riding them hard to get this thing to fully live up to its potential. The guys in Bulgaria are very clued in and seem to be able to implement these changes very quickly, but it's requiring a bunch of late-night Skype sessions between my friend and the engineers - so at the moment it's a work in progress on the software and tweak-ability side.

But, in the end - it *does* work.

Ass-to-ass actually works! This is freaking amazing.

Their bigger interface, the Goliath ($4,500), has a ridiculously full complement of i/o - 128 channels of MADI, 16 channels of ADAT, 32 of analog including 16x mic preamps, four guitar/instrument inputs, a pair of insert points, a pair of re-amp outputs (!!!), etc. - and connects to the host via Thunderbolt (64 channels wide) or USBv2 (32 channels wide). The fact that it's only USBv2 is weird, and this unit does *not* have the DigiLink ports - but stay tuned on that front.

For my use, the Goliath with Thunderbolt / USBv3 as well as DigiLink for "ass-to-ass" connectivity would be pretty awesome, replacing a pair of MOTU AVB interfaces, some MADI cables, and the Avid MADI interface with a single two-space box that would give me a wider array of i/o connectors, the FPGA effects, etc., along with Antelope's very nice A>D/D>A. The only drag is that the current Goliath unit only passes 64 channels over Thunderbolt to the host, while the MOTU AVB system manages to pass 128 channels from any array of AVB interfaces over to the host via Thunderbolt. Hopefully the Goliath's Thunderbolt channel count gets bumped up - the spec is up to the task.

So keep an eye out for any announcements about a Goliath-HD. This would be a monster.

(note - I'm not an employee or endorser of Antelope, just passing on the amazing discovery of "ass-to-ass" connectivity, which seems to be the first setup to achieve this.)


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## Kaufmanmoon (Mar 26, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> For fans of "Requiem For a Dream" this is basically "ass-to-ass" in the digital world!



And the award for the best joke on the VI forum to make Matt spit out his coffee on a Sunday morning goes to........


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## jamwerks (Mar 26, 2017)

Hopefully that valuable tech info between your friend and the engineers will make its way to the manuals.


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## samphony (Mar 26, 2017)

Kaufmanmoon said:


> And the award for the best joke on the VI forum to make Matt spit out his coffee on a Sunday morning goes to........


.... L L La ... no wait ....


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## ChristopherDoucet (Mar 26, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> If you, like me, still use a separate ProTools system as a "print rig" to record the output of your main DAW, you might be interested in the new Antelope Audio Orion32-HD interface that has Mini-DigiLink ports for direct connection to a ProTools HDX card, HD-Native card, or HD-Native Thunderbolt box.
> 
> This $3,500 box has *both* the DigiLink ports *AND* USBv3 ports for direct connection to non-ProTools native DAWs. The truly amazing thing is that you can connect *two* computers at once to a single interface! Your main DAW would connect to the USBv3 port, and your ProTools print rig would connect to the DigiLink ports, and the unit will route 64 channels of audio between the two *internally*. This eliminates the need to have a MADI output interface on your native DAW connected to an Avid MADI interface on your print rig. The pair of Mini-DigiLink ports is good for 64 channels to ProTools, and the USBv3 connection is good for 64 channels to the native host.
> 
> (note - I'm not an employee or endorser of Antelope, just passing on the amazing discovery of "ass-to-ass" connectivity, which seems to be the first setup to achieve this.)



This is very cool! Im achieving the same effect using the Focusrite REDNET 1 and 2x PCI cards, one in my Cubase PC and one in my PTHD Mac. This gives me 128 channels computer to computer without a MADI system and it's been working great as well, *BUTT*, I am not getting all those juicy additional features that the Antelope has. This is great to know about.


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 26, 2017)

Kaufmanmoon said:


> And the award for the best joke on the VI forum to make Matt spit out his coffee on a Sunday morning goes to........



Not to be a pendantic snowflake esp over an enthusiastic CC post...but that scene is the stuff of nightmares. Maybe a Human Centipede or Brian Depalma Sisters analogy would be better.


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## leggylangdon (Mar 26, 2017)

ChristopherDoucet said:


> This is very cool! Im achieving the same effect using the Focusrite REDNET 1 and 2x PCI cards, one in my Cubase PC and one in my PTHD Mac. This gives me 128 channels computer to computer without a MADI system and it's been working great as well, *BUTT*, I am not getting all those juicy additional features that the Antelope has. This is great to know about.



How are you getting 128 channels into PT on a Rednet Pcie card? The limit is 32 channels with non HD hardware and 2 HDX cards. Just curious as I am on Rednet. 2 Rednet 5's 1x Rednet pie and 1 Rednet 2. PT side is HDX with 64 channels.


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## JohnG (Mar 26, 2017)

thanks so much for the tip -- any idea if it would work with HD? or is it just those other PT formats?

I have four Digital 192 interfaces and it's never enough.


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## ChristopherDoucet (Mar 26, 2017)

leggylangdon said:


> How are you getting 128 channels into PT on a Rednet Pcie card? The limit is 32 channels with non HD hardware and 2 HDX cards. Just curious as I am on Rednet. 2 Rednet 5's 1x Rednet pie and 1 Rednet 2. PT side is HDX with 64 channels.



I can bus in 128 channels, but, PTHD will only aggregate 32 without adding HDX cards. My next step is getting 3 HDX cards and 6 REDNET 5's so that PT will allow me more simultaneously, but right now, I can only print 32 channels at a time. 

And in quad, that is only 8.


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## jamwerks (Mar 26, 2017)

ChristopherDoucet said:


> Im achieving the same effect using the Focusrite REDNET 1 and 2x PCI cards, one in my Cubase PC and one in my PTHD Mac. This gives me 128 channels computer to computer without a MADI system and it's been working great as well, *BUTT*, I am not getting all those juicy additional features that the Antelope has. This is great to know about.


Do you know if RedNet is multi-client yet in W10 (Rme is)? I often have Sibelius open also.


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## ChristopherDoucet (Mar 26, 2017)

jamwerks said:


> Do you know if RedNet is multi-client yet in W10 (Rme is)? I often have Sibelius open also.


I'm not sure. Sorry. Dont believe so.


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## leggylangdon (Mar 26, 2017)

ChristopherDoucet said:


> I can bus in 128 channels, but, PTHD will only aggregate 32 without adding HDX cards. My next step is getting 3 HDX cards and 6 REDNET 5's so that PT will allow me more simultaneously, but right now, I can only print 32 channels at a time.
> 
> And in quad, that is only 8.



Ahh copy that. Yeah I hear you. Im about to get another HDX Card and 2 more Red 5's for 128 channels. Its never ending


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## TeamLeader (Mar 28, 2017)

For print, I use Tascam DA3000. Been superb thus far. Used to use multiple rigs. Anti gonna do that no mo'.


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## WS (Apr 1, 2017)

Really interesting , could you use 2 antelopes together with 2 hdx cards on PT rig and 2 USB on logic rig to get 128 channels across ?

As the antelope is 64 io , does that mean you can't use the analogue io for outboard when the madi side is porting across internally or am I misunderstanding something ?

If this all works I'll probably set this up for my next project so thanks for the heads up !


Cheers


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## charlieclouser (Apr 1, 2017)

WS said:


> Really interesting , could you use 2 antelopes together with 2 hdx cards on PT rig and 2 USB on logic rig to get 128 channels across ?
> 
> As the antelope is 64 io , does that mean you can't use the analogue io for outboard when the madi side is porting across internally or am I misunderstanding something ?
> 
> ...



I have my doubts about multiple Antelope units for 128 channels - no mention of that anywhere, and it would require an aggregate interface in CoreAudio on the native Mac side (which is problematic). Plus I think there are limitations for non-Avid interfaces using DigiLink in terms of channel count - 64 max maybe? Not sure.

But as to the second part of your question, any and all analog + ADAT + any other i/o can be used at the same time as doing the ass-to-ass 64 channel cross-patch, subject to the limitation of 64 channels in total from either / both hosts to the unit itself. All cross-patching and assigning of host channels to hardware i/o is done from a matrix type window, so if you can live within 64 channels for all your ass-to-ass AND outboard use, then you'll be fine. Since each host can pass a max of 64 channels to the unit (64 via USBv3 from native DAW, 64 via DigiLink from ProTools) then any of those channels you're NOT using for ass-to-ass stem printing can be routed to any analog or digital hardware i/o for connection to outboard gear.

This is kind of why I'm hoping for a Goliath-HD with 128-channel-wide Thunderbolt connection to the native DAW side, and 64 (or more?) channel-wide DigiLink connection to the ProTools side. Then you could use 64 to get from native to ProTools, and have 64 channels of native-to-Thunderbolt channels to access the various hardware i/o. Fingers crossed.


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## WS (Apr 1, 2017)

Yea that would be the routing nirvana. Is there a particular contact at antelope looking into all this ? ( can go to pm if you like) . 

I'd like to follow up the multiple unit idea. Otherwise I'll try aggregating with my Symphony 2 for the analog side. 

This seems the cheapest and best quality way of doing this so far ....


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## charlieclouser (Apr 1, 2017)

I don't have a contact at Antelope - it's a buddy of mine who actually has the Orion32-hd unit and is going back and forth with them on issues like delay compensation for proper emulation of Avid interfaces, per-channel gain trims for analog i/o (which is not happening yet), etc. 

I think we will run up against a hard limit of 64 channels from any host to the unit via USBv3, and of course the hard limit of 64 channels via two Mini-Digi-Link ports, which are 32 channels each and *that's it. *Even their Goliath only has 64 channels to the host via Thunderbolt, even though we know that Thunderbolt can do waaaayyyy more channels than that. (MOTU AVB does 128 channels no problem at 48k). These limits may be there so that they don't have to cut channel counts at higher sample rates, since all Antelope boxes go all the way to 192kHz. 

I've been telling my friend to hassle Antelope about unlocking higher channel counts where possible. With the Orion32-hd there's a total of 112 possible channels of hardware i/o, including 32+2 analog, 16 ADAT, 64 MADI, and 2 S/PDIF. With only 64 channels to the host, you won't be able to use every single channel - but for most users the MADI will go unused, so it's not such a big deal. With the Goliath (and the hoped-for but possibly non-existent Goliath-HD) you have many more hardware i/o channels, so opening up the to-host channel count to 128 or more is more crucial.

Time will tell.

I have only had sketchy experience with aggregate devices in CoreAudio and I did not like it one bit. But that was years and years ago - perhaps it's better now. Limitations like being forced to use the buffer size of the worst-performing interface in your aggregate stack, etc. But it's been a while.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Apr 1, 2017)

I really hope someday Avid drops the "you need our dedicated hardware because it's the only thing that works" policy and allows no channel limit without HDX cards. I'm not saying to get rid of the cards since it has it's benefits but just get rid of the silly limit which other DAWs don't have. With this, then you could get something like the RME MADIface XT and route 196 channels internally between DAWs. If you need to have them on separate computers then just get 2. I'm sure you could get many more channels over a network without needing any hardware.


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## JohnG (Apr 2, 2017)

It sounds cool but I don't know what to make of Avid. I still can't believe how they treat customers. 

I spent over $15k on a new HD rig, purchased from an authorised PT dealer, and within one year my hardware was rendered completely "obsolete." On top of that, the discount offered for upgrading to HDX and PT 10.x was tiny, even for someone like me who had just bought the older stuff. They expected me to spend _another_ $15-20k to upgrade.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Apr 5, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> I don't have a contact at Antelope - it's a buddy of mine who actually has the Orion32-hd unit and is going back and forth with them on issues like delay compensation for proper emulation of Avid interfaces, per-channel gain trims for analog i/o (which is not happening yet), etc.
> 
> I think we will run up against a hard limit of 64 channels from any host to the unit via USBv3, and of course the hard limit of 64 channels via two Mini-Digi-Link ports, which are 32 channels each and *that's it. *Even their Goliath only has 64 channels to the host via Thunderbolt, even though we know that Thunderbolt can do waaaayyyy more channels than that. (MOTU AVB does 128 channels no problem at 48k). These limits may be there so that they don't have to cut channel counts at higher sample rates, since all Antelope boxes go all the way to 192kHz.
> 
> ...



Goliath HD just released. Looks like it's limited to 64 channels to the DAW but has 2 madi ports.


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## charlieclouser (Apr 5, 2017)

Oooohhhh - now that's sexy. Perhaps using Thunderbolt to connect to the native DAW side will eliminate some of the USB issues my buddy was having. Only 64 channels to the host though - I suppose I could live with that, but that means you have to decide what subset of the hardware analog and digital i/o you want to use, since you'd only have as many channels as you have left over after designating all of your stem channels. If you're printing 8x 5.1 stems (as I am this week) then that's 48 streams used up right there, so you only have 16 channels worth of connectivity between your native DAW and all of that lovely Antelope hardware i/o.

Still, that is a baaaad boy. Kudos to Antelope for not sitting around doing nothing. Now, if only they'd light up 128 channels of Thunderbolt-to-host alongside the 64 DigiLink, I'd jump right in.


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## WS (Apr 6, 2017)

Even 8 more channels would do me just so you could leave some inputs permantly wired up. 72 channels doesn't seem out of this world in thunderbolt land. 

If the antelope software is easy to use , maybe just set up a layback routing template that you can easily switch over to the 64 madi at print time at the end of a cue. Not quite as fluid but a possibility .


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## leggylangdon (Apr 6, 2017)

Guys...Im telling you...Rednet is the way forward for this kind of application. Its so flexible and expandable. You route any audio anywhere with no latency!

Connecting six RedNet 5 units to a Pro Tools HDX system allows up to 192 inputs and outputs - the maximum supported by Pro Tools HDX. 
My buddy who engineers for Rick Rubin just tested that Antelope HD interface in this application as they were wanting to link Ableton into PT digitally and the internal routing thing looks pretty sweet but they had an unreliable experience with it, not possible in a session with Eminem. I recommended Rednet to them, they are now very happy!

I like the idea of this single unit system but doesn't seem fully legit yet. I will watch this space though! 

Cheers

Leggy


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## gsilbers (Apr 6, 2017)

I still don't understand why have a separate hardware unit. VEP made it clear its not necessary.
but I could be missing something.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Apr 6, 2017)

gsilbers said:


> I still don't understand why have a separate hardware unit. VEP made it clear its not necessary.
> but I could be missing something.



Of course it's possible. I've been at concerts streaming many channels from 3 different continents with latency low enough for people to play together. It's just that Avid...


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## charlieclouser (Apr 6, 2017)

gsilbers said:


> I still don't understand why have a separate hardware unit. VEP made it clear its not necessary.
> but I could be missing something.



What we're talking about here is not VEPro slaves, or anything related to the main DAW for composing. The concept of a separate "print rig" is to use a separate rig, usually running ProTools, as a "mix down deck" into which you'd record all of the outputs of your master machine. Lots of people just bounce stems, or route their stems to empty audio tracks inside their main DAW, but the reasons why I use a separate print rig are:

- I need to be able to create a ProTools session that contains my stems and mixes, and nothing else. No MIDI tracks, no virtual instruments, no plug-ins - just a completely clean, stripped session that only has the material they're going to want on the dub stage. All faders at zero, no automation... clean.

- Often (always?) I will have cues that overlap - Cue A is ringing out while Cue B is fading in. When I print my mixes over to the print rig, I can "checkerboard" the cues, with Cue A printed to one set of tracks, and Cue B printed to another identical set of tracks. This way the music editor on the dub stage can move, edit, or automate each cue individually, like causing Cue B to fade in more gradually, or Cue A to fade out more quickly, without actually crossfading all of the cues on one set of tracks. I usually will actually use six identical sets of tracks, so there is room for up to two "alt" mixes or versions of each cue before the music editor has to do anything funky. This setup also means that while I'm working on Cue B I can hit play in ProTools and hear the end of Cue A and how it will overlap with Cue B. This makes it fast and easy to finesse those transitions. The only way to really do it with a single-machine setup is to bounce just the tail end of Cue A and insert that as an audio track at the correct timecode point in the beginning of Cue B. Hassle.

- If I need to preview stuff for directors or producers, the ProTools session represents a whole reel at a time, so I can record rough versions over to that print rig and then play back the whole film in 20 minute chunks, with all of my demos, rough mixes, and finished mixes stacked up right there, ready to go. No more loading each cue one by one in Logic while the guys are sitting on the couch getting bored. If they (or I) want to hear an earlier version, or the temp cue, or whatever, I can just un-mute it right there without looking inside folders trying to find which version of the Logic file they're talking about.

- When I did my first film, the technology was not as burly as it is today. In Logic you couldn't easily assign the record source for an empty audio track to be sourced from the output of another bus (stem sub master). This meant that just arming 32 empty audio tracks, assigning your stem sub masters to feed those tracks, and hitting record was not possible. Not to mention that the computer was maxing out just playing back the cue, so forget about expecting it to record another giant stack of audio tracks in one real-time pass. Plus, I had ProTools rigs sitting around anyway, so I set up my system to use ProTools rigs as "layback decks" aka "mix down decks" aka "print rigs". Now, of course, you can route signals this way inside Logic or Cubase, plus everything's on SSD and computers are often fast enough to handle doing it all in one box. But it's still nice to work with a separate print rig - that way I can push my main DAW to 99% capacity and still record the output in one pass. If it will play the cue, I can get it recorded. On my latest projects I'm outputting 48 channels - that's seven 5.1 stems plus a 5.1 composite mix - and since I connect Logic to ProTools via MADI, I've got 64 channels to work with if I want to go to more stems, or 7.1, or whatever.

- Obviously, recording to a separate print rig means it all goes down in one pass. No more bouncing each stem individually. Recently, most DAWs allow for simultaneous bouncing of multiple stems, but this is very recent, and can be a little fiddly to set up.

- I like to bounce in real-time so I can hear everything that's being recorded. On my rig, I can mute / solo individual stems on the ProTools side without affecting what's being recorded, which is handy.

- Recording over to the ProTools rig means that I am creating nice, clean, BWF files that are time stamped. On the dub stage, the music editor can either use my actual ProTools session (which never happens), or import groups of my tracks or even just the raw, time-stamped audio files into the template session they're already using on the stage. This way the music editor doesn't have to reconfigure dozens of output assignments in my session to match what they want to see on the console. Just drop my audio into their pre-configured template and boom. Done. Sometimes the same ProTools rig is being used to play back both the music and the dialog or sfx, so this way they don't have to wreck a complex session that already has those pre-mixes inside it. Sure, bouncing from within my DAW to time-stamped WAV files can also work, and I've done that sometimes when I'm not outputting lots of stems and don't want to fire up the print rig, like on tv series where it's all done in a hurry.

- Some folks like to do additional processing on the ProTools side (I don't). Sending all of your stems over from your main DAW to ProTools means that you could, in theory, use plugins that are only available in ProTools for that additional processing. Nowadays most plugins are available on all platforms, but 15 years ago this wasn't the case, so I'd sometimes run limiters and stuff on the ProTools side and record through them. These days the only plugins I use on the ProTools side are big, fancy, metering plugins, but even that's pretty convenient.

So to set this up I've got the MOTU AVB interfaces on the Logic machine, sending my stems out over MADI, and the ProTools print rig receives those stems via an Avid MADI interface. When recording stems, ProTools is the sync and digital clock master, sending LTC timecode and word clock out of the Avid SyncHD peripheral - the Logic machine receives the LTC timecode via an XLR analog audio cable going into the Unitor MIDI interface, and the word clock goes into the MOTU AVB audio interface. When I'm just working in Logic, I work as normal, monitoring through the record-enabled tracks on the ProTools side. As soon as I hit play or record in ProTools, it sends LTC to Logic which immediately sees it and goes into external sync mode and plays back in sync. No need to toggle any setting in Logic since it has "auto sync" mode.

Yes, this means I need two computers. And two sets of audio interfaces with MADI and word clock going between them. So the reason the Orion32-HD and the new Goliath-HD are interesting is that you can plug *both* computers into the *same* interface *at the same time*, and it acts like two separate audio interfaces, with signals routed internally between the two systems. This is an industry first, and is actually pretty amazing. My rig works perfectly as-is, so I'm not likely to switch, but for some users this is an important development. Even for non-film-music guys, who just want to bring a secondary DAW into the main one more simply, this setup could be very cool.

Let's say you're using ProTools to make an album, but the artist has tons of stuff in Ableton Live on their laptop. You could hook up an audio interface to the laptop, route signals out of however many outputs that interface has into your ProTools rig, and that's how we've done it for years. But now you could use an Antelope HD interface on your ProTools rig and then just plug in the artist's laptop to that same interface via USB or Thunderbolt, route the signals internally, and away you go. No more passing signals between the two via analog, or ADAT, or being limited by the number of separate outputs on the laptop's audio interface. Boom. One cable, 64 channels going across, digitally, internally. Very cool.

A lot of similar functionality is possible with Dante, RedNet, or AVB - in fact, with AVB or Dante Via you can send 32 channels right from the Ethernet port on any recent Mac right into an AVB or Dante network, with no interface needed - but some of these solutions can be complex and daunting for less experienced users. So the Antelope concept is a nice alternative.

Provided that you don't run into issues with Antelope's USB drivers or whatever. But the concept is pretty radical and cool.


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## gsilbers (Apr 6, 2017)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> Of course it's possible. I've been at concerts streaming many channels from 3 different continents with latency low enough for people to play together. It's just that Avid...



Yes, the channel limitation for non hdx users... thats def an issue.


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## gsilbers (Apr 6, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> What we're talking about here is not VEPro slaves, or anything related to the main DAW for composing. The concept of a separate "print rig" is to use a separate rig, usually running ProTools, as a "mix down deck" into which you'd record all of the outputs of your master machine. Lots of people just bounce stems, or route their stems to empty audio tracks inside their main DAW, but the reasons why I use a separate print rig are:
> 
> - I need to be able to create a ProTools session that contains my stems and mixes, and nothing else. No MIDI tracks, no virtual instruments, no plug-ins - just a completely clean, stripped session that only has the material they're going to want on the dub stage. All faders at zero, no automation... clean.
> 
> ...



Yes, yes i meant to say in the transfer audio only. i helped in RCP a few times. im aware of the crazy setups. 
I meant That with VEP we see its possible connect via ethernet two different computers and transfer dozens of channels of different audio streams. so imagine VEP but no midi at all. just audio transfer. one app to another app being used as DAWs input/output devices on different computers transfering audio, time code, ltc, sync etc. so rednet or avb but no hardware. And also a simple GUI.
Basically in VEP there is audio being triggered via midi, that audio from the pc is going to the mac via ethernet AND being streamed into a plugin. Why not have an plugin thats a ethernet I/O that you can place on your output busses on your composer daw and the audio goes out into the sample plugin but in another computer running pro tools but as inputs. (sync would be applied through Molcp3 or another way)

But the main issue as Gerhard mentioned is pro tools limited channel on non hdx interfaces. 

I was thinking on those moty avb interfaces but then again... i think its just time someone comes up with some sort of plugin/app to transfer audio daw to daw.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Apr 6, 2017)

gsilbers said:


> Yes, yes i meant to say in the transfer audio only. i helped in RCP a few times. im aware of the crazy setups.
> I meant That with VEP we see its possible connect via ethernet two different computers and transfer dozens of channels of different audio streams. so imagine VEP but no midi at all. just audio transfer. one app to another app being used as DAWs input/output devices on different computers transfering audio, time code, ltc, sync etc. so rednet or avb but no hardware. And also a simple GUI.
> Basically in VEP there is audio being triggered via midi, that audio from the pc is going to the mac via ethernet AND being streamed into a plugin. Why not have an plugin thats a ethernet I/O that you can place on your output busses on your composer daw and the audio goes out into the sample plugin but in another computer running pro tools but as inputs. (sync would be applied through Molcp3 or another way)
> 
> ...



What I really don't understand is why such a plugin doesn't exist. Reaper has such a plugin that I was never able to get working but VEP has clearly shown that we can send hundreds of audio channel without issues. If there were a program just like VEP except that one vst connects to another vst, then the PT channel limit would be irrelevant (just like it doesn't limit the number of channels for VEP). You just put 1 plugin on each of the "out" stem tracks in the first DAW and 1 on each of the "in" stem tracks in PT. Spatial Audio Designer lets you route audio between it's own plugin instances on separate tracks but I've never tried "cross" connecting it with it running in another DAW. Maybe it works. Something to try out. If it works then you can get virtually unlimited channels between 2 DAWs running on the same computer. Dante Via can get you to 32x32 but one of the things that I don't like about it is that you need to use it as the soundcard driver.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Apr 6, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> If it will play the cue, I can get it recorded



The opposite is also true and an issue with print rigs. If it can't play the cue or has any glitches it can take forever to get a "clean" take. If you're doing it all offline, you'll never get any glitches since the speed which it does the bouncing is as much as it takes to get a proper print. If you're not doing any mixing in PT (ie just using it for printing) then I think offline bouncing is the way to go (it's what I do and since PT isn't doing any processing, it's not an issue to be running it on the same computer). A single click and it's all there faster than it would take to actually record it in. If you're doing any additional mixing in PT it gets a bit more complicated but is still perfectly doable.


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## charlieclouser (Apr 6, 2017)

I haven't tried this yet, but I believe that AVB allows for a lot of what you're talking about - but, like Dante Via, I think there is a limit of 32 channels when a Mac is connecting directly to an AVB network from its built-in Ethernet port. 

If each computer has a direct Thunderbolt connection to a MOTU AVB interface, then you can send 128 channels from one computer to another over Ethernet, up to a total of 512 channels spraying around the whole AVB network. 

Computer A > Thunderbolt > AVB interface A > CAT5 > AVB compatible Ethernet switch / hub > CAT5 > AVB interface B > Thunderbolt > Computer B.

Not quite as elegant as the Antelope "ass-to-ass" mode, but way more channels and way more flexibility in terms of having AVB boxes strewn about the building in each room.

As to the idea of using off-line bouncing to deal with cues that sometimes have a click or some other problem related to cpu or disc speed, I actually haven't had that issue in a long time. Back when I was doing cues that were maxing out my system, there was no such thing as off-line bounce, or track freezing, or any of that good stuff. That was in the G4 / G5 era! Now that I'm on a 12-core Mac Pro cylinder with all SSDs, even my biggest cues only use up less than a third of my cpu and disc access hardly registers on Logic's performance meters. But then again I don't use lots of Kontakt and VEPro - it's mostly EXS and audio. Now that the machines and drives are so fast, my configuration with a separate print rig isn't even being stressed at all. 

Which is nice.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 7, 2017)

Charlie, I wonder-are you the only guy using EXS as extensively as you do, or is there a whole underground network of heavy EXS users out there? You sure seem to have that low CPU use sampler thingie nailed.


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## charlieclouser (Apr 7, 2017)

NYC Composer said:


> Charlie, I wonder-are you the only guy using EXS as extensively as you do, or is there a whole underground network of heavy EXS users out there? You sure seem to have that low CPU use sampler thingie nailed.



I think I'm the only guy still using EXS as much as I do. I literally don't know one other person, either film composers or rock album guys, who still uses it - except for the Spitfire guys! Even Clemens Homburg and Jan-Hinnerk from the Logic dev team were surprised when they came to my place after NAMM and saw my template with 224 EXS instances!

- Browsing EXS instruments from Logic's built-in browser is just sooooo sweet. And quick. And I can navigate it entirely with key commands. And EXS never, ever, ever asks where a sample is. It uses Spotlight (I think) to locate everything, so the only time it throws a dialog is when it finds multiple copies of the samples it needs - then it asks which you want to use. If it *does* throw the "can't find sample" dialog then that sample really, truly, for sure isn't on *any* mounted drives - even shared and network drives. Awesome.

- Instruments load sooooo fast. Basically everything thats not a 2gb piano loads instantly, and my biggest instrument takes three seconds. And supposedly with Logic v10.3.1 they load three times faster! Insane! My fully loaded template loads in 15 seconds from scratch - with 224 loaded EXS instances with compressor and eq on each, 14x Space Designer and Stereo Delay, and 14x Waves L3-LL.

- EXS has had the equivalent of VEPro's "Preserve but don't DeCouple" for nearly 15 years. With the EXS Preference called "Keep Common Samples In Memory When Switching Songs", if you switch between two songs that use the same set of EXS instruments, they don't unload and reload at switch time. They stay loaded! But all front panel tweaks come from the newly loaded song! So good.

- I *really* dislike the fact that many Kontakt libraries don't give you basic ADSR and filter controls on their fancy front panels, and digging around under the hood, scrolling through hundreds of Groups and trying to add and edit those controls is a nightmare. On EXS those controls are always there, so it's a simple matter to take a strings patch, close the filter, and apply a tempo-synced sawtooth LFO - boom, instant pulse generator. All of those tweaks *can* be saved back to the instrument file if desired, but *they don't have to be*. They are considered non-destructive front-panel tweaks and *do* get saved with the song, so you don't have to mess with the saved instrument if you don't want to. And I don't want to!

- The fact that the velocity crossfade mechanism is a mod routing in the front-panel mod matrix is genius. This means you set up velocity splits with no overlaps in the key map editor, and then at playback time you can decide how much crossfade to apply, and with what curve shape, and even swap velocity for mod wheel as the crossfade source! So you can decide on the fly how you want to switch or fade between velocity zones. Amazing. In Kontakt, velocity splits and overlaps must be built in the key map editor, and if you want to do mod wheel crossfading it's a whole other flavor of nightmare.

- Articulation ID's are coming / already there. I don't use them, but I can see them in the editor.

- Key Switching, Controller Switching, Round-Robins, Release Samples - it's all in there and has been for many years. Plus now we've got "Convert Audio Track to Sampler Track". Freaking genius.

I know it's crude in many ways compared to Kontakt, but I can just fly on EXS. It's like the old Akai samplers I grew up on. Plus, I've got the process of converting Kontakt libraries to EXS down to a science, although it does mean keeping a rig that runs El Capitan or earlier in order for Redmatica KeyMap to work, and it often means dealing with Chicken Systems Translator - which does work fine, but looks ugly and confusing. Sure, there's no true legato transitions, but that's about the only thing I miss from Kontakt.

The super-low CPU usage is a nice bonus too!


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## URL (Apr 7, 2017)

It will be interesting to see how different computer communication interface works against something like Goliath.
Pc (Vep6/kontakt slave setup) usb 3 connected to Goliath- Mac* TB* connected to Goliath to avid for print.

Or would it be better to use only ethernet cat 6 for all communication and print, and just one audio card on the main daw?
Is it possible to get this audio interface to audio interface to sync and work properly in a native situation, anyone tried that...? I don't have the budget for HD solutions but use Avid Native so it would be handy to have a ethernet solution
for printing.


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## charlieclouser (Apr 7, 2017)

I don't think the Goliath can have TB and USB hosts connected at the same time, but I could be wrong. It's not going to be released for a while, so we shall see. The Orion32-HD only has USB and DigiLink, so that's why the talk about that box only refers to using two hosts at the same time - a native DAW via USB3 and a ProTools system via DigiLink. The DigiLink ports are for connection to either an HDX card or an HD-Native system (PCIe card or Thunderbolt box) - 64 channels at once.

If you could use all three connection schemes at once on the Goliath-HD that would be just amazing!


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## gsilbers (Apr 7, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> I haven't tried this yet, but I believe that AVB allows for a lot of what you're talking about - but, like Dante Via, I think there is a limit of 32 channels when a Mac is connecting directly to an AVB network from its built-in Ethernet port.
> 
> If each computer has a direct Thunderbolt connection to a MOTU AVB interface, then you can send 128 channels from one computer to another over Ethernet, up to a total of 512 channels spraying around the whole AVB network.
> 
> ...




I do like the idea of AVB. when it came out the PT printing rig was my 1st thought. my second was the 32 ch limitation. 3rd thought was stereo deliverables  

I just dont think that these setups should be costing so much. but the issue is that its soo focused it hard to find a cheaper solution. its like when gamers just laugh at the idea of anyone needing more then 32gb of ram. 
those VSL folks sure did an amazing feat with VEP. and those would be the only one who might do something like plugin to plugin audio transfers. Hopefully they will be reading this  


There is also a way to have the PT printing rig in the same computer. But i am not sure if they are bypassing the 32 channel limitation or how they working the sync. I think i tried once and it didnt work.


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## mat1 (Apr 9, 2017)

leggylangdon said:


> Guys...Im telling you...Rednet is the way forward for this kind of application. Its so flexible and expandable. You route any audio anywhere with no latency!
> 
> Connecting six RedNet 5 units to a Pro Tools HDX system allows up to 192 inputs and outputs - the maximum supported by Pro Tools HDX.
> My buddy who engineers for Rick Rubin just tested that Antelope HD interface in this application as they were wanting to link Ableton into PT digitally and the internal routing thing looks pretty sweet but they had an unreliable experience with it, not possible in a session with Eminem. I recommended Rednet to them, they are now very happy!
> ...




Are they just using it to transfer audio from Ableton to PT or do they have the two DAWs sync'd in some way?

Cheers

M


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## leggylangdon (Apr 9, 2017)

mat1 said:


> Are they just using it to transfer audio from Ableton to PT or do they have the two DAWs sync'd in some way?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> M



Just transfering over. I know they can rewire but they want full third party plugin availability. They sync with MTC when ready to print to PT


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## tweetertech (Apr 21, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> If you, like me, still use a separate ProTools system as a "print rig" to record the output of your main DAW, you might be interested in the new Antelope Audio Orion32-HD interface that has Mini-DigiLink ports for direct connection to a ProTools HDX card, HD-Native card, or HD-Native Thunderbolt box.
> 
> This $3,500 box has *both* the DigiLink ports *AND* USBv3 ports for direct connection to non-ProTools native DAWs. The truly amazing thing is that you can connect *two* computers at once to a single interface! Your main DAW would connect to the USBv3 port, and your ProTools print rig would connect to the DigiLink ports, and the unit will route 64 channels of audio between the two *internally*. This eliminates the need to have a MADI output interface on your native DAW connected to an Avid MADI interface on your print rig. The pair of Mini-DigiLink ports is good for 64 channels to ProTools, and the USBv3 connection is good for 64 channels to the native host.
> 
> ...



Charlie, do you have any updates from your friend on the usability/stability/reliability of the Goliath HD in a pro setting?

-TT


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## charlieclouser (Apr 21, 2018)

tweetertech said:


> Charlie, do you have any updates from your friend on the usability/stability/reliability of the Goliath HD in a pro setting?
> 
> -TT



After a month or two of trying, and two or three units swapped out, my boy gave up on the Goliath HD, unfortunately. The sound of the analog side was top of the heap, the feature set was unmatched by anything else on the market, but he just couldn't make it work the way he needed it to. The dual-host (aka "ass-to-ass") mode is still something that no other manufacturers seem to have offered (other than Dante / Rednet / AVB type setups), and would be a big selling point for me and many others. The idea of a ProTools user (with the Goliath HD connected to PT via DigiLink) being able to plug in a client's laptop via USB and dump their Ableton stuff or whatever straight across would seem to be a world-beating setup... but my buddy just couldn't get it to stay lit. He wound up with Lynx interfaces on his PT rig. Boring, basic feature set - but simplicity and reliability. 

Antelope may have gotten things up to speed in the few months it's been since he last tried the Goliath HD, but he's moved on - and I'm still sailing along just fine with my MOTU AVB on the Logic side and Avid MADI on the PT side.

Tons of users out there have no issues with Antelope products, but that wasn't the case for my friend.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Apr 21, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> After a month or two of trying, and two or three units swapped out, my boy gave up on the Goliath HD, unfortunately. The sound of the analog side was top of the heap, the feature set was unmatched by anything else on the market, but he just couldn't make it work the way he needed it to. The dual-host (aka "ass-to-ass") mode is still something that no other manufacturers seem to have offered (other than Dante / Rednet / AVB type setups), and would be a big selling point for me and many others. The idea of a ProTools user (with the Goliath HD connected to PT via DigiLink) being able to plug in a client's laptop via USB and dump their Ableton stuff or whatever straight across would seem to be a world-beating setup... but my buddy just couldn't get it to stay lit. He wound up with Lynx interfaces on his PT rig. Boring, basic feature set - but simplicity and reliability.
> 
> Antelope may have gotten things up to speed in the few months it's been since he last tried the Goliath HD, but he's moved on - and I'm still sailing along just fine with my MOTU AVB on the Logic side and Avid MADI on the PT side.
> 
> Tons of users out there have no issues with Antelope products, but that wasn't the case for my friend.


I think the Avid MTRX offer that but I think you can only have 32 channels going to each PT rig. You could instead have 64 going to one and then another computer via ethernet with Dante.


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