# Do we need a separate sample talks section for hobbyists and working composers



## andyhy (Dec 11, 2021)

In practical terms the working professional composer seems to rely on the old standards when it comes to sample libraries. An example of this would be Carlos Rafael Rivera, the composer of the The Queen's Gambit, who I believe used the original non-professional version of SSO. I guess in part this has to do with the ultimate live orchestral re-recording. In other words for a working composer the initial VI version is purely a mockup, a sketch to win the commission, which needs to be as good as possible in the time available given production deadlines. The imperatives for the hobbyist are very different. Budget permitting hobbyists want the best possible samples (and lots of them) so they can recreate "that sound". They won't be re-recording anything with a live orchestra so the original sample sound must be top notch. Hobbyists are likely to be far more focused on the microphones used in something like AR2IS than a working composer needs to be. That's a totally different priority and essentially a very different target market for sample libarary developers. I would be interested to see a breakdown of the VI sample library market between working composers and hobbyists. My guess is it's around 80% hobbyist these days if not more. So to my title question, should VI Control have two separate sample talk sections, one for hobbyists and another for working composers, or would it be helpful for contributors to be required to specify which category they fall into?


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## Fever Phoenix (Dec 11, 2021)

I think this is obsolete and very subjective.

What is a professional composer? I make a living composing for TV, but there are probably thousands of so called hobbyists who might 'orchestrate' or 'midi-program' better than me, so I don't know what exactly you are asking for here..

I think the current sections on VI-C are doing fine


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## markleake (Dec 11, 2021)

My 2c. No and no.

I think the beauty of this forum is that it is open to anyone regarless of experience and work background.

Also, I would debate this idea that hobbyists and professionals have different goals. I'm a hobbyist, and I often want something that works fast and has "plonkability", as the young people aound here say.

And I'd say sometimes it's the opposite for pros (whatever that is)... they in many cases want their libraries to sound as good as they can get.

People are already free to (and do) identify themselves as pro or not. It hasn't seemed like an issue here.


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## Wunderhorn (Dec 11, 2021)

I think the lines between hobbyist and pro are too blurry in order to make a distinction.
There are so many various settings under which someone may decide to write music and end up making or not making money or a living from it.


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## Tralen (Dec 11, 2021)

Not to mention that a lot of professional or amateur people are not aiming to be composers for film or television. I recall VI-C being for _musicians_, in whichever field (or expertise level) they are.


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## YuHirà (Dec 11, 2021)

andyhy said:


> In other words for a working composer the initial VI version is purely a mockup, a sketch to win the commission, which needs to be as good as possible in the time available given production deadlines.


Most of professional media composers don't always have the budget to record, and when they do, they now rely a lot on layering, even old school composers like Elfman... Therefore, in theory, we do need the best possible samples.


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## zwhita (Dec 11, 2021)

Not sure what you'd call what I do: I open a Kontakt track, play some chords, giggle like a schoolboy and turn it off. Does that mean I need a different forum or just therapy?


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## Trash Panda (Dec 11, 2021)

andyhy said:


> So to my title question, should VI Control have two separate sample talk sections, one for hobbyists and another for working composers, or would it be helpful for contributors to be required to specify which category they fall into?


No. All this would do is divide the community and create resentment.


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## FOTO M (Dec 11, 2021)

hmm... a hobbyist search for all new or use the 3 things that he know. a pro do the same but he know more results of combinations at start of the project. a pro sets flowers and a hobbyist earn them mostly.


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## MusicIstheBest (Dec 11, 2021)

Maybe Spitfire should have a separate section, with 20 sub-forums, one for each mic position.


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## AMBi (Dec 11, 2021)

Not a fan of that idea
If everyone was segregated I would have less people to tell that their favorite string library is actually inferior to my favorite string library all while refusing to elaborate because I am right and they are wrong


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## Jdiggity1 (Dec 11, 2021)

As long as the thread topic is clear, everybody can decide for themselves whether they want to take any notice of it or not - Hobbyist or otherwise.


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## andyhy (Dec 11, 2021)

All responses very valid. I won't ask again.


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## José Herring (Dec 11, 2021)

Fever Phoenix said:


> I think this is obsolete and very subjective.
> 
> What is a professional composer? I make a living composing for TV, but there are probably thousands of so called hobbyists who might 'orchestrate' or 'midi-program' better than me, so I don't know what exactly you are asking for here..
> 
> I think the current sections on VI-C are doing fine


I think it comes from a common misconception. People think "pro" and think that there's some sort of mythical dividing line. In my experience "pro" just means those of us that are silly enough to risk everything so that we can do music full time. I too get blown away when some young whipper snapper post "this is my first mockup" and then post something that even 5 years ago everybody would have thought came from a major motion picture. The internet is a frightening place letting you know constantly that there are other people that can do this just as well or better.


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## José Herring (Dec 11, 2021)

andyhy said:


> All responses very valid. I won't ask again.


Don't back down now. You do make a few valid points. 

Most notably I find that the hobbyist are more interested in the newer toys. I personally am not and I've worked so much for other composers that are still using decades old libraries that to rush out and by the next thing not only would be financially detrimental but a waste of HD space. You just get what works for you. So I buy in spurts and kind of plan it out and also take into account the learning curve because in times when I have to deliver I learned the hard way that one can't be dealing with a bunch of new stuff you hardly know how to use. Better to buy when you have down time or buy on sale and park it until you have time to work it fully in.

I was highly intrigued that John Powell has nearly the same libraries that I do. I mean some of that was on purpose because I bought nearly the same libraries he has. But he does use libraries that are commercially available to everyone. So why does he sound so much better than us all, it ain't the library that's for sure.


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## FOTO M (Dec 11, 2021)

Dont reach the limits, built them for the new reality. i am a hobbyist now. somtimes i am my own pro, and the flowers will be set.


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## noldar12 (Dec 11, 2021)

I think many of us may not fall into easily defined catagories. On the one hand, I'm severely visually impaired and given that, by definition, have no interest in and will never do professional film or game composing. In that sense I will never be "in the business". My skill level is also less than many of the people here. So in that sense, I'd be considered a "hobbiest". On the other hand, I've been an active church musician for decades, currently am a worship and teaching pastor at a small church, and at different times in my life have been in the position to write a lot of church choral music including choral/orchestral pieces, help with arranging, and even do a bit of conducting (when one is leading, one doesn't have to worry about not being able to see a conductor-LOL).

I like the focus of musicians helping musicians, and given the community here, was way overdue to return.


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## jazzman7 (Dec 11, 2021)

Unless they actually segregated them, the "Pro" section would be at capacity and the "Hobbyist" section would be a ghost town. Everyone wants to hang with the cool kids


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## Geoff Grace (Dec 11, 2021)

José Herring said:


> buy on sale and park it until you have time to work it fully in.


That's what I generally do.

I'm a professional who habitually records "in the box" these days: mostly using virtual instruments. My mockups were usually replaced by an orchestra back in the 20th century, when the record industry had big budgets; but those days are gone.

Of course, there are still plenty of orchestral recordings in other media; but there are even more cases in which samples are used instead, or in tandem with a few live players.

Best,

Geoff


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## wunderflo (Dec 11, 2021)

more categories would probably lead to confusion and lots of duplicate content. Would make it quite difficult to keep track of the opinions on a certain library, for example.

However, it'd be extremely helpful imo if for every post you could optionally state how you came to a certain opinion/conclusion/experience by selecting what fits best from a multiple choice "how do you know" menu (could be some symbols above the "post reply" button) - your choice would then be displayed above your signature. It could look like this:

*"How do I know? From intensive usage experience"*

Other options could be: "From testing it briefly" and "From analyzing demos & walkthroughs" (or simply "from hearsay"). All these opinions and views are legit and can be very valuable, but I feel we sometimes tend to create echo chambers in some threads, where we just repeat what others stated, because it biases our perspectives and knowing that we now need to listen out for that "ear piercing scratchy sound in the violins", we can't help but to notice it as well when watching the walkthrough (and state it again, and then others focus even more on it, and so on...).

Whereas someone who bought the library and uses it, might make a bigger effort to actually make it work for him/her and to like it, because he/she might need to justify the spending. This person might not even notice said ear-piercing scratchy sound, because it can easily be fixed by changing the mix of microphones, for instance. Something we might not be able to tell from evaluating walkthroughs & demos. 

Simply put: When talking about products, many of us are rather talking about how they are presented - not the actual products. We base our judgments on the information we have - what else we can we do. While that's fine and fun, it does make a difference whether we rate someone else's performance and use of the product or our own use of it. Not too many users here make this transparent (no bad intentions, probably just not thinking about it).


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## Vlzmusic (Dec 11, 2021)

If this question arises on second ancient "musicians helping musicians" forum, its a sign that third one is not out of the question...


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## chillbot (Dec 11, 2021)

Fever Phoenix said:


> I make a living composing for TV, but there are probably thousands of so called hobbyists who might 'orchestrate' or 'midi-program' better than me


This is me.



Trash Panda said:


> All this would do is divide the community and create resentment.


This is also me.

That aside, I do think it's a valid and worthy question, worth asking anyway. But I don't think there is any feasible method to making it work here.

On a tangent, "working composers", however you define, are lucky to have hobbyists because it brings the costs down significantly. (I'm going off zero actual data but whatever.) What is the ratio on vi-c, maybe 90/10 hobbyists/working? What is the ratio of people that buy libraries, maybe 75/25 hobbyists/working? Someone should tell me so I stop making stuff up. In any case I think hobbyists are a vital part of pushing the limits of sampling and also keeping the costs reasonable.


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## markleake (Dec 11, 2021)

wunderflo said:


> Simply put: When talking about products, many of us are rather talking about how they are presented - not the actual products. We base our judgments on the information we have - what else we can we do. While that's fine and fun, it does make a difference whether we rate someone else's performance and use of the product or our own use of it. Not too many users here make this transparent (no bad intentions, probably just not thinking about it).


I get what you are saying, but I tend to think it's only an issue when people first arrive on the forum and are still learning who is who.

Personally I find that people will often state what their own experience is with a library as part of their commentary anyway, when they think it is relevant. Maybe not always, but if you're unsure, it's fine to ask... it's a very valid question and I'm sure most users will respond if you put the question nicely.

(I've seen it asked not so nicely, with sometimes entertaining results!)


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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 11, 2021)

I don’t earn my primary living as a composer, but I have composed professionally for over 20 years…and don’t mock-up for live orchestra. Does that make me a hobbyist or working composer? I don’t feel separate sample talk sections are a good idea.


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## chillbot (Dec 11, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> I don’t earn my primary living as a composer, but I have composed professionally for over 20 years…and don’t mock-up for live orchestra. Does that make me a hobbyist or working composer? I don’t feel separate sample talk sections are a good idea.


Agree with this. And just rambling here... whether or not you've never made a dime with music or made a living at it (which is another conversation, but really just dumb luck in a lot of cases) has no bearing on your ability as a composer or ability to use samples masterfully. If I had one gripe as someone who went through spending $3,000 for every piece of hardware (pre-samples) and then $1,000+ for every library back in the day it's just the constant complaining about pricing, when stuff has literally never been cheaper or better quality than we have now. EDIT: I mean no offense to anyone I just don't see any working composers complaining about the price of samples in this era. So if we are talking about working vs hobbyists maybe that's the one difference, and maybe it's simply newer composers vs older composers I dunno.


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## chillbot (Dec 11, 2021)

Jdiggity1 said:


> As long as the thread topic is clear,


Is now a good time for me to bring up my loathing of clickbait-inspired vague thread topics?


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## Jdiggity1 (Dec 11, 2021)

chillbot said:


> Is now a good time for me to bring up my loathing of clickbait-inspired vague thread topics?


We have a thread on that topic coming soon...


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## eakwarren (Dec 11, 2021)

I’m a grateful hobbyist. The article linked in my signature presents an interesting take on the word amateur. It means to love something. (Yes, the article is more in depth than that and worth one’s time IMO. )

No offense to anyone, but I’d rather rub shoulders and exchange ideas with folks who are positively passionate and love a topic, instead of folks burnt out with “the business,” stressed out over deadlines or stuck creating in a genre that’s become cliche to them. And I don’t feel the previous sentence stereotypes any one camp (pro or non-pro) in particular. I’m here because my muse is music. I think about it all the time. I consider myself a musician and if I can continue to learn about my passion and share my limited knowledge to help someone on their journey, then that’s enough for me. I don’t need any labels other than musician, self imposed or otherwise.


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## Zedcars (Dec 11, 2021)

I guess I would be described as a hobbyist, even though I despise the term as it suggests one is less skilled than a pro and only doing it to pass the time — like a stamp collector or model railway builder.

However, outside of my day job I spend every spare minute on this “hobby” and am always trying to learn and improve my music. I find this place extraordinarily inspiring precisely because it is overflowing with so my talented individuals from all walks of life. I find it incredible that I could be rubbing shoulders with Hans Zimmer and other well respected names within the industry. But that’s not really the main reason I hang out here; it’s really because this community has proved itself time and time again to be so valuable to me and others. You see it every day; someone posts a problem/question/query and within usually minutes someone will reply with a solution or suggestion or considered opinion. The breadth of knowledge and skill from both hobbyists and professional musicians alike is outstanding. The humanity and caring nature of the community really shows how selfless and kind people can be regardless of who you are, where you hail from or what status you happen to be.

I don’t think siloed sub-forums divided by pro/non pro status would actually be beneficial and may have a detrimental affect upon the free-flowing nature of the discussion where everyone’s views are treated on equal footing.


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## Saxer (Dec 11, 2021)

Today being "a composer doing mockups that will be replaced by real musicians" is just one case of many different pro composers. In a lot (if not most) published music samples will be used in the final production.

But this special case of "making mockups that will be replaced by real musicians" needs different workflows and libraries. This concerns all writing for concert hall or live events as well as film scoring or mockups for pop production with additional live sections or preparing rehearsal mockups for student orchestras, ballets, choirs...

Maybe it would be good idea to have a sub-forum for "Pre Live Musicians Temp Mockups"?

I think this topic is interesting enough for non-pro composers too to avoid any kind of "elite section" in this forum. It's just a special case of using virtual instruments.


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## David Kudell (Dec 11, 2021)

I look at how I used to do things and am amazed at how much I didn’t know. I think it‘s important to be mindful that we’re all at various stages of knowledge. Whether you’re making a living at this or just doing it for fun, doesn’t mean you can’t write a great tune.


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## Batrawi (Dec 11, 2021)




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## Geoff Grace (Dec 11, 2021)

Regarding the topic of adding yet another forum to this place, how many here typically click on a forum, like “Sample Talk,” and just look at the displayed threads for that forum?

I’ve long ago given up on opening forum links to browse this site. The “Latest Posts” and “History” links that pull topics from a variety of forums are generally enough for me. I don’t bother to pay attention to what forum I’m in unless I’m about to start a topic or I want to post something that’s disallowed in Commercial threads.

I have a feeling that most people here these days surf the site in a similar fashion, mostly disregarding the forum structure; but that’s just a vague impression I get from reading occasional comments about site navigation.

Best,

Geoff


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## GNP (Dec 12, 2021)

eakwarren said:


> I’m a grateful hobbyist. The article linked in my signature presents an interesting take on the word amateur. It means to love something. (Yes, the article is more in depth than that and worth one’s time IMO. )
> 
> No offense to anyone, but I’d rather rub shoulders and exchange ideas with folks who are positively passionate and love a topic, instead of folks burnt out with “the business,” stressed out over deadlines or stuck creating in a genre that’s become cliche to them. And I don’t feel the previous sentence stereotypes any one camp (pro or non-pro) in particular. I’m here because my muse is music. I think about it all the time. I consider myself a musician and if I can continue to learn about my passion and share my limited knowledge to help someone on their journey, then that’s enough for me. I don’t need any labels other than musician, self imposed or otherwise.


Awww, don't feel bad if you're an amateur.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Dec 12, 2021)

The parameters by which you define the two categories are completely arbitrary and don't even apply to the current sample library market. Also, it's a public forum, let people talk to each other, Jesus.


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## MartinH. (Dec 12, 2021)

Rarely have we all been so much in agreement on one topic .



Geoff Grace said:


> I have a feeling that most people here these days surf the site in a similar fashion, mostly disregarding the forum structure; but that’s just a vague impression I get from reading occasional comments about site navigation.



I definitely do this, and I bet a lot of others as well.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Dec 12, 2021)

When I answer a question about something I don’t have any experience with myself, I try to remember to phrase the answer in a way which makes this clear.

Example:
”I’ve seen many people here say that XXX uses a lot of CPU.”

Then the OP can see I’m “just” parroting stuff I’ve read others say on this forum. However the answer may still be very useful to the OP.

I do agree with this thread’s OP that it’s important to state “the context“ of your reply, however it should be up to the individual who is replying to state this. The solution is not to separate the Sample Talk category into pro/hobbyist.


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## easyrider (Dec 12, 2021)

More division….😩


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## Fever Phoenix (Dec 12, 2021)

easyrider said:


> More division….😩



when you read through the feedback and answers from several ppl on the OPs question, I would rather state that there is a lot of comon ground ☀️


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## chillbot (Dec 12, 2021)

eakwarren said:


> No offense to anyone, but I’d rather rub shoulders and exchange ideas with folks who are positively passionate and love a topic, instead of folks burnt out with “the business,” stressed out over deadlines or stuck creating in a genre that’s become cliche to them.


On massive advantage that a hobbyist has, or whatever word you want to use that means "not trying to live off of income from music", is spending days or weeks or even months on one track, which would be completely unrealistic if you were getting paid on a per-track basis.


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## sinkd (Dec 12, 2021)

In short: nah. 

I am a "pro" when it comes to composition, but still and always on a learning curve when it comes to post pro and mixing.


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## Bernard Duc (Dec 12, 2021)

andyhy said:


> In practical terms the working professional composer seems to rely on the old standards when it comes to sample libraries. An example of this would be Carlos Rafael Rivera, the composer of the The Queen's Gambit, who I believe used the original non-professional version of SSO. I guess in part this has to do with the ultimate live orchestral re-recording. In other words for a working composer the initial VI version is purely a mockup, a sketch to win the commission, which needs to be as good as possible in the time available given production deadlines. The imperatives for the hobbyist are very different. Budget permitting hobbyists want the best possible samples (and lots of them) so they can recreate "that sound". They won't be re-recording anything with a live orchestra so the original sample sound must be top notch. Hobbyists are likely to be far more focused on the microphones used in something like AR2IS than a working composer needs to be. That's a totally different priority and essentially a very different target market for sample libarary developers. I would be interested to see a breakdown of the VI sample library market between working composers and hobbyists. My guess is it's around 80% hobbyist these days if not more. So to my title question, should VI Control have two separate sample talk sections, one for hobbyists and another for working composers, or would it be helpful for contributors to be required to specify which category they fall into?


You realize that most TV shows, even the big ones, have scores that are composed mostly, if not entirely with virtual instruments? I'm pretty sure this is the case of The Queen's Gambit as well. You want to get "that sound" from big Netflix or HBO shows? It's very likely to be samples.

Even composers who record everything or almost everything with real musicians need to have great mockups. Listen to John Powell mockups for example, they are not perfect, but they are still of stellar quality and extremely close to the final recording, that's what producers and directors expect nowadays.

The reason why "pro" composers don't care about the latest library is because 1. they often don't sound any better than older libraries, actually a lot of those newer libraries that a lot of people praise here (usually due to hype building, good marketing) are not used by most working composers simply because they don't think it sounds good enough 2. they need to work very fast and stick to tools that they know well and that don't have complex configurations (they don't care about having every variation of attack and legato because they don't have time for that), and 3. they don't have time to spend hours on VI control listening to countless demos for every new release, and they won't do it unless if they feel like they need something for a particular project.

And the only reason why a lot of non pros can't manage to get "that sound" despite having all the possible VIs is because their writing, their orchestration, and their production skills are not as good. Another reason is that they don't write for the strength of the VIs, which pro composers always do if the samples will make it to the final product, otherwise people would stop hiring them really soon.

My point is not that amateurs are not as good as pros, some are absolutely fantastic just like some pros are not very good at mockups (usually older composers who didn't need to do great mockups early in their careers), my point is rather that those who can't get "that sound" should stop buying more VIs but write more, produce more, work on their ear training, and this in turn will help them buy stuff that will actually serve their music. Their is very little theory that can help making a great sounding track, every decision should be made with the ears.


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## lux (Dec 12, 2021)

I suspect the best answer to this question resides in the good number of massive names who simply interact with people on this board.


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## Fever Phoenix (Dec 12, 2021)

chillbot said:


> On massive advantage that a hobbyist has, or whatever word you want to use that means "not trying to live off of income from music", is spending days or weeks or even months on one track, which would be completely unrealistic if you were getting paid on a per-track basis.



this. indeed.


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## Ivan Duch (Dec 12, 2021)

I agree with what most said, nowadays samples are not necessarily limited to the mockup. I work as a composer but have no budget for real orchestras or even soloists most of the time, so I do my best researching and implementing different types of libraries that approach the expression I'm after. 

For those composers who work with big-budgets and orchestras or love to work with live players, samples seem to be about ease of use and general purpose, I think that's John Powell approach. Among those composers, you see less care about the latest sample library, for them, samples are a tool meant for something else.

I talked with Austin Wintory a bit during one of his live streams on YouTube and he told me he always writes for live musicians. And if the budget is limited he prefers to reduce the number of players rather than use samples. I think he could care less about his mockups, he just uses them to convey an idea and then sends that to an orchestrator and copyist.

Conclusion: I think samples are an artistic tool, depending on the artist they will be used in different ways. It's not a matter of working as a composer professionaly. Hans Zimmer makes intensive use of samples and we can all agree he makes his living out of it.


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## Rowy van Hest (Dec 19, 2021)

andyhy said:


> In practical terms the working professional composer seems to rely on the old standards when it comes to sample libraries. An example of this would be Carlos Rafael Rivera, the composer of the The Queen's Gambit, who I believe used the original non-professional version of SSO. I guess in part this has to do with the ultimate live orchestral re-recording. In other words for a working composer the initial VI version is purely a mockup, a sketch to win the commission, which needs to be as good as possible in the time available given production deadlines. The imperatives for the hobbyist are very different. Budget permitting hobbyists want the best possible samples (and lots of them) so they can recreate "that sound". They won't be re-recording anything with a live orchestra so the original sample sound must be top notch. Hobbyists are likely to be far more focused on the microphones used in something like AR2IS than a working composer needs to be. That's a totally different priority and essentially a very different target market for sample libarary developers. I would be interested to see a breakdown of the VI sample library market between working composers and hobbyists. My guess is it's around 80% hobbyist these days if not more. So to my title question, should VI Control have two separate sample talk sections, one for hobbyists and another for working composers, or would it be helpful for contributors to be required to specify which category they fall into


That's interesting, I wouldn't dare to ask for a separate section for trained composers and self-taught composers. Neither would I ask for separate versions for "classically" trained composers with a completed study of music composition at a conservatory of music or university and the privately trained ones (Berklee). Also, I would not dare to divide any section in composers from a Western civilization and American composers. That would be awful.

Right, I think I'm going to hide myself now.


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## Ivan M. (Dec 19, 2021)

Define "pro".

Someone who's profession is called "composer"? However, there are many people who don't work in their profession, what they trained for, because they can't find a job, so they work something else. Is working in the industry a measurement of "pro"? Take some popular music as an example...

What if someone doesn't work in the industry, but produces "pro" results? Is he a pro or not?

You might compose well, but what if you can't materialise it properly? Maybe you outsource that, but are you a pro then? Do you have to be a good producer to be a pro?

Is it money? What if someone has some income from selling music, but not enough to live off of it. Is he a semi-pro. What if you do, but your skills suck? Are you a pro?

Is it popularity? But what if your skills suck?

What if someone works in the industry, but not with virtual instruments? For example a session player. Maybe he tinkers with VIs, but he primarily sells recording services. Is he a pro or not?

Is "pro" someone who works full time: 1. with virtual instruments, 2. in the industry, 3. earns his living from it. Should we add another point: 4. has good results? But maybe other people help him orchestrate, produce, so is he really a pro?

Finally, is it result based? Then he doesn't have to work in the industry to be called a "pro".

The only difference I see between people who work in the industry and other are deadlines. So it's all about how efficient new libraries are, but all library devs try their hardest to make it better. Hobbyists don't have too much time, either. By all means, have your own sub-forum, but if you avoid using new products, because of deadlines, I don't know what you're going to talk about.

Oh my God, I've typed too much...


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## Ivan M. (Dec 19, 2021)

Batrawi said:


>


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