# Kirk Hunter _ Lyric Series String Quintet _ Intro



## sostenuto (Nov 5, 2020)

e-mail just now.
Posting here early for broad discussion as desired.

Lyric Series String Quintet | Kirk Hunter Studios


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## Tacet (Nov 5, 2020)

Interesting, but the videos don't work for me, anyone else having this issue?


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## filipjonathan (Nov 5, 2020)

What's up with their visuals?! It all looks like it was made 20 years ago.


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## Crowe (Nov 5, 2020)

Video works fine. It's youtube.

I'm somewhat concerned by the fact that it doesn't really state what's included anywhere.


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## sostenuto (Nov 5, 2020)

Maybe 'My Bad' for jumping gun based on e-mail. Likely formal KH post soon ?


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## timbit2006 (Nov 5, 2020)

This library sounds best when run off a Pip-boy from Fallout  Joking aside I like the visuals. Might be good to wait for the official announcement thread to begin discussion though.


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## muk (Nov 5, 2020)

filipjonathan said:


> What's up with their visuals?!



The visuals are what you take issue with here?

Frankly, all the demos sound very, very bad. These are definitely no professional tools. I am always careful to state my opinions as such. In this case, it is an undeniable fact that the demos don't sound musical. If you are looking for good sounding solo strings libraries, don't waste your money on this.


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## filipjonathan (Nov 5, 2020)

muk said:


> The visuals are what you take issue with here?
> 
> Frankly, all the demos sound very, very bad. These are definitely no professional tools. I am always careful to state my opinions as such. In this case, it is an undeniable fact that the demos don't sound musical. If you are looking for good sounding solo strings libraries, don't waste your money on this.


Lol! It indeed sounds bad but I'm just surprised that their brand new library looks as bad as their early ones. The fonts, resolution, photos... Even if it sounded good the visuals would turn me off.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 5, 2020)

I cannot prove it, but I am convinced that people who see his name on it expect it to sound bad because that’s been the narrative here for so long, and so their reaction is confirmation bias.

I have it. I think it sounds really good and my review will be up soon.


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## timbit2006 (Nov 5, 2020)

Is it just me or does this maybe sound better than the demos for the new product? I have diamond and like the Solo Romantic violin which you can hear here in the center. I also like the basses and cello from that, it was strange to see it taken down.





Ashermusic said:


> I cannot prove it, but I am convinced that people who see his name on it expect it to sound bad because that’s been the narrative here for so long, and so their reaction is confirmation bias.
> 
> I have it. I think it sounds really good and my review will be up soon.


Nice! Many are probably happy you took the plunge first, I'm looking forward to hearing it raw. The one demo Quintet by Gary Rottger sounds good so I'm keeping my hopes up for sure.


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## muk (Nov 5, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> I cannot prove it, but I am convinced that people who see his name on it expect it to sound bad because that’s been the narrative here for so long, and so their reaction is confirmation bias.



Jay, please listen to the 'Brandenburg 3' demo and tell me if that sounds good to you. You can not honestly think that. This has nothing to do with confirmation bias and everything with horrible sounding demos. I think even notation playback can do far better than that.


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## Sid Francis (Nov 5, 2020)

Hey Jay

I am thankful for your coming review though I would be more thankful for some playing around in a video. I am more of a KH fanboy, got 4-5 of his libraries and use them but, gosh, these demos here are awful ...puh. And the GUI is as mentioned above


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## Gerbil (Nov 5, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> I cannot prove it, but I am convinced that people who see his name on it expect it to sound bad because that’s been the narrative here for so long, and so their reaction is confirmation bias.


Sorry, but the sound quality of the Brandenburg demo is soooo bad it hurts my ears. I can hear the attempt at a performance in there, but it's like having one ear pressed up to an ancient radio speaker, listening to a chorus of rabid cats being garroted by a bandpass filter fanatic.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Nov 5, 2020)

Let's have a listen...


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## filipjonathan (Nov 5, 2020)

Like, I don't understand why invest and develop a library that is so far behind the current ones when you're definitely not gonna sell a great number of it. At least add something that will at least TRY to compete with the others. I don't know, it might just be that I'm a snob. 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## chapbot (Nov 5, 2020)

ME: I didn't think fake vibrato could get any worse than Cremona.

KH: Hold my beer.

Really, I hate to be mean because I bought Diamond 37 years ago back when the only way to get it was for it to be shipped on a hard drive. And loved it. Did a track with the solo strings (like the video above) that made a famous producer gasp. But it's 2020. My theory is: the more you try to control everything manually (i.e. vibrato etc.) the more fake it sounds.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 5, 2020)

Gerbil said:


> Sorry, but the sound quality of the Brandenburg demo is soooo bad it hurts my ears. I can hear the attempt at a performance in there, but it's like having one ear pressed up to an ancient radio speaker, listening to a chorus of rabid cats being garroted by a bandpass filter fanatic.



I don't see that one on the website, but I just listened to tThe Journey by Phillip Klein and Nella Fantasia. and I like the sound of those a lot.

And here is Itzhak Perlman. Again, I can't prove it but I suspect if I posted just the audio and said it was a sample library, many here would say, the vibrato sounds fake.


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## Kevinside (Nov 5, 2020)

I was always dissaponinted with KH Libraries... Does anyone really use them... They sound awful...in comparsion to other developers like vsl,spitfire or (enter your favourite here)...sry to say that...


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## timbit2006 (Nov 5, 2020)

chapbot said:


> ME: I didn't think fake vibrato could get any worse than Cremona.
> 
> KH: Hold my beer.
> 
> Really, I hate to be mean because I bought Diamond 37 years ago back when the only way to get it was for it to be shipped on a hard drive. And loved it. Did a track with the solo strings (like the video above) that made a famous producer gasp. But it's 2020. My theory is: the more you try to control everything manually (i.e. vibrato etc.) the more fake it sounds.


That's odd I always thought KH stuff originally came on a set of 300 wax cylinders each shipped COD in their own bubble mailer.
I wonder if with a vibrato randomization/humanization script this might sound better overall. 

The release so close to black friday may be a bit of a mistake as well since a lot of people already have their money tied up, that's more than likely going to be my situation. I don't think much could've been done though with the pandemic and whatnot.


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## chapbot (Nov 5, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> I don't see that one on the website, but I just listened to tThe Journey by Phillip Klein and Nella Fantasia. and I like the sound of those a lot.
> 
> And here is Itzhak Perlman. Again, I can't prove it but I suspect if I posted just the audio and said it was a sample library, many here would say, the vibrato sounds fake.



Absolutely, positively not. A trained ear can easily hear the slight fluctuations in real vibrato, like you hear in your example. Simply focus on a single note he's playing and detect the imperfections. Then listen to the fake vibratos of Cremona or this new KH library and it is perfect. No fluctuations. Perfect width, perfect rate. And that's what makes it sound fake. I can envision a day when an AI can model these imperfections but it isn't happening yet.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 5, 2020)

Kevinside said:


> Does anyone really use them..




I do, Charlie Clouser does. Bruce Miller does. John Debney does. Gary Rottger does.

Look, it's subjective and I have fought with people too many times, not because we disagree which is fine,, but because of the nasty and what they mistakenly _think_ is the clever way they describe the libraries. I got my fill of that working for EW (and yes, I like the sound of the EW Hollywood Solo Strings, as well) and I am not going to play that game again.

I like this library a lot. I am giving it a very positive review. If you don't, fine and of course you are free to say so.

But please, do like Kevinside did here and spare us your attempts at trying to show us how clever you are in your disagreement.


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## chapbot (Nov 5, 2020)

timbit2006 said:


> I wonder if with a vibrato randomization/humanization script this might sound better overall.


*MIND MELD* I literally just typed the same concept as you posted lol


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## Ashermusic (Nov 5, 2020)

chapbot said:


> Absolutely, positively not. A trained ear can easily hear the slight fluctuations in real vibrato, like you hear in your example. Simply focus on a single note he's playing and detect the imperfections. Then listen to the fake vibratos of Cremona or this new KH library and it is perfect. No fluctuations. Perfect width, perfect rate. And that's what makes it sound fake. I can envision a day when an AI can model these imperfections but it isn't happening yet.



Well, what you may not know yet if you haven't watched the vibrato video, there are lots of ways to control the vibrato in this library.

Oh, and btw, I can't remember now, but a number of years ago a member of this forum did exactly what I said, posted an example of real players and said it was samples and there were lots of comments bout how fake it sounded.

But anyway, I have said all I have to say. As always, the marketplace decides.


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## Kevinside (Nov 5, 2020)

ok which solo strings library has the vibrato with all the inperfections, which are needed to sound real...


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## filipjonathan (Nov 5, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Well, what you may not know yet if you haven't watched the vibrato video, there are lots of ways to control the vibrato in this library.


Why are you so adamant about defending this? The fact is, the demos on the website just don't sound good. Especially compared to other libraries out there. We're not being overly critical or mean, we're just being real.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 5, 2020)

filipjonathan said:


> Why are you so adamant about defending this? The fact is, the demos on the website just don't sound good. Especially compared to other libraries out there. We're not being overly critical or mean, we're just being real.



1. Because I like them.
2. Did you read some of the comments posted? How snide and condescending they are?

Anyway, truly I am done.


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## nolotrippen (Nov 5, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> I do, Charlie Clouser does. Bruce Miller does. John Debney does. Gary Rottger does.
> 
> Look, it's subjective and I have fought with people too many times, not because we disagree which is fine,, but because of the nasty and what they mistakenly _think_ is the clever way they describe the libraries. I got my fill of that working for EW (and yes, I like the sound of the EW Hollywood Solo Strings, as well) and I am not going to play that game again.
> 
> ...


me


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## Kevinside (Nov 5, 2020)

wow... I only said, that i am dissapointed with KH Libraries... I bought some, when they were on sale... The whole Brass and Strings... and yes for me personally it was not worth the money... (especially the strings) Sry...
If you like the KH libraries; good for you... and there is absolutely no problem... Maybe KH is not for me...This should be ok... 

But my question remains... Which solo library has no "simulated" vibrato and brings up all the fluctuations and imperfections of the instrument, when played... Hmm Spitfire?


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## nolotrippen (Nov 5, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> 1. Because I like them.
> 2. Did you read some of the comments posted? How snide and condescending they are?
> 
> Anyway, truly I am done.


These are likely the same fan boys of VSL and Spitfire which can do no wrong. Prove me wrong (I have coffee).


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## AceAudioHQ (Nov 5, 2020)

Sounds quite fake imo, I bet it would take too much work to make it sound realistic on a track. I guess it could be used as a sketching library but I think there are better options for that. Feels a bit overpriced even at intro price considering what else there is on the market today


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## filipjonathan (Nov 5, 2020)

AceAudioHQ said:


> Sounds quite fake imo, I bet it would take too much work to make it sound realistic on a track. I guess it could be used as a sketching library but I think there are better options for that. Feels a bit overpriced even at intro price considering what else there is on the market today


Exactly


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## chapbot (Nov 5, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Well, what you may not know yet if you haven't watched the vibrato video, there are lots of ways to control the vibrato in this library.
> 
> Oh, and btw, I can't remember now, but a number of years ago a member of this forum did exactly what I said, posted an example of real players and said it was samples and there were lots of comments bout how fake it sounded.
> 
> But anyway, I have said all I have to say. As always, the marketplace decides.


Oh, I watched the video and I don't care about controlling the vibrato, because if you make it faster or slower or wider it will make it perfectly faster or slower or wider. The issue here is the difference between perfection and non-perfection.


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## re-peat (Nov 5, 2020)

You gotta hand it to Mr. Hunter, the man perseveres. More than two decades he’s been at it and you’d think he would have learned something by now about sampling instruments and producing libraries, but no, not a nano-inch of progress in all these years. One embarrasing dud after another, and, if those demos are anything to go by, this new one sounds even more excrutiatingly bad than some of the earlier ones. It’s quite remarkable, actually. This is sustained failure of such length and on such an epic scale that it becomes almost heroic.

And Jay, you have to forgive me, but I don’t trust nor respect your opinion on the subject of KH’s libraries. (As you don’t trust or respect mine, I suppose.) You have this weird loyalty towards Mr. Hunter that, while indicative of your kind heart, disables you from hearing how bad his stuff actually is. Somehow, it is impossible for you to recognize even the most blatant flaws in KH’s output. Maybe you share the same Alma Mater or you frequented the same scene, I don’t know, but there’s this bond between you two that blocks your ears completely when you’re listening to his samples and that, I fear, makes any opinion or review from you of KH’s product highly suspect and misguiding.

And these 'high-profile users' you always mention in KH threads: sure, these people may have used KH libraries at one time in their career — I did too when I started out (rough times) — and it’s even possible that they hang on to certain patches from certain libraries because in their own idiosyncratic way these bizarre stringoïd sounds can deliver exactly what is needed for a certain part in a piece of music (provided that what’s needed is not a good and realistic stringsound), but that being said, the simple truth is: scour the earth and its enveloping galaxies, and you won’t find a single good-sounding orchestral mock-up made with KH libraries. They don’t exist. Because they can’t be made. It’s impossible. Even if all the people you mention plus you yourself were to collaborate on a piece, you still won’t be able to produce a good sounding mock-up which also has a decent degree of orchestral believability. Because it can’t be done. No one can. It’s a simple as that. Good mock-orchestral sound and KH are anathema. The closest anyone ever got to an enjoyable result with KH strings, was Rob but he can coax a decent stringssound from a recording of bonobos-playing-kazoos-while-fornicating if he puts his mind to it.

If you wonder where the nastyness comes from: there’s excellent, there’s good, there’s mediocre, there’s bad and then … there’s Kirk Hunter. We’re talking a quality level so low and a shameless display of incompetence so staggering, that the English language doesn’t have a word for it. I call it _kirkhunterish_, that’s my word for ‘beyond bad, to an unforgivable degree’. And when someone tries to sell ‘beyond bad’ to unsuspecting users, confused beginners or ill-informed amateurs (I use the word ‘amateur’ in its most positive sense), I’m of the opinion that a sprinkling of nastyness is a fully deserved response. Plus: a warning. A warning that can’t be transmitted loud, clear and widely enough: don’t buy this. Every other similar product on the market is better. A lot better.

_


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## timbit2006 (Nov 5, 2020)

The link is broken on their website but I found this on youtube, it's worth watching for sure. The official demos sound pretty bad compared to the background music in this.

I wonder how it'd sound with a genuinely good player with a breathcontroller and footpedal to control the vibrato and dynamics. I think there should be some comparison videos of it doing a well known classical piece, that's always a way to tell if a library can hold up or not.

There's something else I noticed that's worth mentioning but on their demo track "Cello 2b" there's a very bad noise at :16, you can see the peak in the waveform so I'm not even sure how someone managed to miss that mistake. I don't mind minor chair noises but that's maybe a bit extreme and it's panned to the left.


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## filipjonathan (Nov 5, 2020)

timbit2006 said:


> The link is broken on their website but I found this on youtube, it's worth watching for sure. The official demos sound pretty bad compared to the background music in this.
> 
> I wonder how it'd sound with a genuinely good player with a breathcontroller and footpedal to control the vibrato and dynamics. I think there should be some comparison videos of it doing a well known classical piece, that's always a way to tell if a library can hold up or not.
> 
> There's something else I noticed that's worth mentioning but on their demo track "Cello 2b" there's a very bad noise at :16, you can see the peak in the waveform so I'm not even sure how someone managed to miss that mistake. I don't mind minor chair noises but that's maybe a bit extreme and it's panned to the left.



Are they serious with this???!!!! What in the world?!


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## chapbot (Nov 5, 2020)

re-peat said:


> You gotta hand it to Mr. Hunter, the man perseveres. More than two decades he’s been at it and you’d think he would have learned something by now about sampling instruments and producing libraries, but no, not a nano-inch of progress in all these years. One embarrasing dud after another, and, if those demos are anything to go by, this new one sounds even more excrutiatingly bad than some of the earlier ones. It’s quite remarkable, actually. This is sustained failure of such length and on such an epic scale that it becomes almost heroic.
> 
> And Jay, you have to forgive me, but I don’t trust nor respect your opinion on the subject of KH’s libraries. (As you don’t trust or respect mine, I suppose.) You have this weird loyalty towards Mr. Hunter that, while indicative of your kind heart, disables you from hearing how bad his stuff actually is. Somehow, it is impossible for you to recognize even the most blatant flaws in KH’s output. Maybe you share the same Alma Mater or you frequented the same scene, I don’t know, but there’s this bond between you two that blocks your ears completely when you’re listening to his samples and that, I fear, makes any opinion or review from you of KH’s product highly suspect and misguiding.
> 
> ...


Brutal. But as the kids these days would say, "you're not wrong."


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## AndyP (Nov 5, 2020)

I must confess that I find the demos also anything but convincing.
But that does not necessarily mean that there is nothing better to do with the library. But with the demos it is hard for me to find the access.


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## Kevinside (Nov 5, 2020)

After listening...

Sry the Demos are sounding really bad, synthy and totally unrealistic....A new library, which seems to be from the past... and to rape Ennio Morricone´s theme of "the mission" is unforgivable, epsecially when it sounds so strange and awful... Shame on you KH to present it as demonstration of your new library....

and for you all, thinking, that everybody is attacking KH... Listen to the demos of this new library, watch the videos...and make your own opinion...

The demo song of the "the mission" theme is called nella fantasia... Is this allowed to copy a great composition in such a unbelievable bad way...Its absolutely a ripoff of Morricone´s "Gabriels Oboe"... Why is this possible to steal the composition and name it like nella fantasia...without mentioning the orignal name and composer... Kirk Hunter and the bad habits....sry


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## AceAudioHQ (Nov 5, 2020)

Kevinside said:


> The demo song of the "the mission" theme is called nella fantasia... Is this allowed to copy a great composition in such a unbelievable bad way...Its absolutely a ripoff of Morricone´s "Gabriels Oboe"... Why is this possible to steal the composition and name it like nella fantasia...without mentioning the orignal name and composer... Kirk Hunter and the bad habits....sry



Nella fantasia is the vocal version by Sarah Brightman, but without vocals I guess it's Gabriel's Oboe? I'm not too familiar with the songs to know if there are any differences between besides the added vocals.


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## Kevinside (Nov 5, 2020)

@AceAudioHQ

Thanks for clarification... I did not know, that there was a vocal version of The Mission´s Gabriels Oboe...
called nella fantasia...I found it on Apple Music...
I am really sorry...

thank you...

Ps: here the original live conducted by Morricone...



and


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## Ashermusic (Nov 5, 2020)

re-peat said:


> You gotta hand it to Mr. Hunter, the man perseveres. More than two decades he’s been at it and you’d think he would have learned something by now about sampling instruments and producing libraries, but no, not a nano-inch of progress in all these years. One embarrasing dud after another, and, if those demos are anything to go by, this new one sounds even more excrutiatingly bad than some of the earlier ones. It’s quite remarkable, actually. This is sustained failure of such length and on such an epic scale that it becomes almost heroic.
> 
> And Jay, you have to forgive me, but I don’t trust nor respect your opinion on the subject of KH’s libraries. (As you don’t trust or respect mine, I suppose.) You have this weird loyalty towards Mr. Hunter that, while indicative of your kind heart, disables you from hearing how bad his stuff actually is. Somehow, it is impossible for you to recognize even the most blatant flaws in KH’s output. Maybe you share the same Alma Mater or you frequented the same scene, I don’t know, but there’s this bond between you two that blocks your ears completely when you’re listening to his samples and that, I fear, makes any opinion or review from you of KH’s product highly suspect and misguiding.
> 
> ...



Piet, those names I mentioned specifically praise THIS library so your comment is factually incorrect. You will find it on the testimonials section of this page. https://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/products/lyric-series-string-quintet/

The rest I will not address.


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## LamaRose (Nov 5, 2020)

@Ashermusic Jay, are you going to do a review/walkthrough of this? Definitely some kind of disconnect between the solid testimonials and what demos I can hear... most of the vids are broken links on my end. Be that what it may, I agree with you regarding the arrogant nastiness that seems to be proliferating on the forums in general. 

Of course, it is winter and one must expect an increase in the _snowflake _count.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 5, 2020)

LamaRose said:


> @Ashermusic Jay, are you going to do a review/walkthrough of this? Definitely some kind of disconnect between the solid testimonials and what demos I can hear... most of the vids are broken links on my end. Be that what it may, I agree with you regarding the arrogant nastiness that seems to be proliferating on the forums in general.
> 
> Of course, it is winter and one must expect an increase in the _snowflake _count.



I have written a review for synths and software.com and will be recording a short interview about the library highlighting some features with the editor, Nick Batzdorf.

Regarding the latter part of your post. That's just the way it is here. I remember when I worked for EastWest and the released the Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds, composer Ed Sheamur did a walkthrough of it, saying that he really liked it. Well the library was received poorly here and the comments frequently didn't just disagree, it was "Where are his ears? Can't he hear how bad that sounds?"

Guess what, Ed didn't care. He liked it, he said so, then he went right back to working on of the several scores he was hired to do. I guarantee you, he did not spend a moment of self-doubt about his ears or his taste.

Charlie Clouser, John Debney, Ramin Djawadi, and Tom Salta are all on the website saying flattering things about _this_ library. I don't know John or Ramin, but I know Charlie and Tom, although I haven't talked to them in a while. Charlie comes here, the others do not asa far as I know.

But if they do or did, I guarantee you, they will not spend a moment of self-doubt about their ears or their taste. They liked it, they said so, and they went back to work.

Now my career has not reached the lofty heights of theirs, but I have been making a living making music for a living for over 50 years and have achieved some things.

So when someone writes to me, not just that they disagree with my assessment, but also "Where are your ears? Can't you hear how bad that sounds?"

I guarantee you, I will not spend a moment of self-doubt about my ears or my taste. I will go back to work.

So sure, say you think something sounds bad that I say I like if you do. Say you think something sounds good that I say I don't like if you do. Take me on. That's what we are here for, right? To discuss this stuff, which is subjective.

But spare me, or any other posters about any _other_ libraries, the condescending attempts to make us question our ears or taste.

Because it doesn't achieve anything with me, and I sincerely hope it doesn't affect anyone else.


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## Piotrek K. (Nov 5, 2020)

I'm currently waiting for BF to check if Embertone will drop price for Joshua Bell violin cause I'm kinda on the market for solo violin. So this one got my interest. But wow, it does sound very, very bad on demos and on the videos. The tone is subjective, but it seems that library advertised as "Create Musical Melodies Out of the Box" can't do that at all. Sounds woobly, processed, like drunk musicians on a boat during storm.

But to be fair KH in general has shitload of great ideas (divisi for everything, a lot of control over samples, complex scripting) but - at least imo - his ideas never shine, due to "too-muchness". This is also what I hear in this library - tons of scripting and ideas to a point where we don't have instrument, but tech demo of something that could be incredible if done properly.


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## ummon (Nov 6, 2020)

Over a decade ago I frequently used KH Diamond library in my theatre work and it worked just fine (Diamond demo attached). Back then there wasn't much of a competition in the sample library market and not so many orchestra sample libraries available - and of course there wasn't convincing legato samples or anything fancy as there are today. Diamond was useful for creating beds for live recordings or some experimental stuff. Those few times I had to contact Mr. Hunter, he was always helpful and kind.

Sadly, I have to agree with people here considering the new library demos. At least, they don't give a good impression about the product comparing to some other products in the market today.


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## LamaRose (Nov 6, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> I have written a review for synths and software.com and will be recording a short interview about the library highlighting some features with the editor, Nick Batzdorf.



Thanks, I'll check those out. Sheamur's score for "K-Pax" is a favorite of mine... a masterclass in mood and underscoring.


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## Polkasound (Nov 6, 2020)

I was not familiar with this library, so I went to the KH website and played through the demos on SoundCloud. I thought they were wonderful. Absolutely beautiful tone. In opinion, better than the Cremona Quartet just released by NI. Perfect? No. At times I could hear notes coming across as a little MIDI-ish, but I think a skilled MIDI composer could take the time to massage those kinks out of a track.



re-peat said:


> you’d think [Kirk Hunter] would have learned something by now about sampling instruments
> 
> One embarrasing dud after another
> 
> ...



So are you saying you don't like this library? Your opinion was so unprofessionally mired in disrespect and condescension toward the developer that I must have missed it. My sincere apologies.


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## re-peat (Nov 6, 2020)

No, I don’t like it, *Polka*. And if a developer wants my respect, he or she has to release a product that earns it. I can converse very respectfully when inspired to do so. But that’s a highly unlikely contingency in KH’s miserable case.

We also seem to have different opinions, you and I, on what the word ‘professional’ means and implies. Yours appears to be an interpretation that likes to see us all restrained in polite, civil and harmless conversation. That spineless, pseudo-civil, hypocriticial conduct that has to pass for 'professionalism'. Which I detest. I see it a little differently. It’s precisely my view of what professionalism is — a passion and desire for quality work, and an expectation that people approach their commercial and creative endeavours with pride, self-respect as well as respect for their customers — that makes me say the things I say in the manner I say them. Because I don’t see that type of professionalism in the material which KH releases. It is in fact so devoid of it that it offends both the musician and the professional in me. You may have a hard time understanding it, but I am in fact at my most respectful and professional in these KH threads. Precisely because those words mean something to me, and are not to be feigned or bandied willy-nilly.

So, until work surfaces, done with this library, that sounds good and somewhat believable — something that will never happen —, I stick with everything I said thus far. And, sorry, *Jay*, but I don’t believe a single word of any of those five endorsements. One can’t listen to that Brandenburg 3 monstrosity or that Morricone mutilation and then read that the library _“captures the beauty and grandeur of legendary instruments (…) with the ease and grace of a great performer”_ without either roaring with incredulous laughter or, my reaction, sighing the sad sigh of someone who knows he/she’s being lied to. Clearly there are sympathies at play here that have nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of the product under consideration. Nothing wrong with that _per se_ — apparently, it is the professional thing to do —, but don’t expect me to read it any differently than what it is: meaningless blurb. Anyone who writes that _“realism right out of the box is incredible”_, _“the sound is beautiful”_, _“the recorded instruments are vibrant and warm”_ or _“hands down the best sounding string quartet I’ve ever played”_ instantly forfeits being taken seriously (on this topic anyway), as far as I’m concerned, no matter their professional credentials. There is simply too much conflict between such testimonials and the abysmal sound of the demos.

Kirk Hunter at his most kirkhunterish, that’s what this is. Unpardonably bad.

_


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## Sid Francis (Nov 6, 2020)

to all lesser professionals than some: do yourself a favour and don´t listen to the horredous demos but watch the video about vibrato control. The tone of the violin there is quite nice and at least on the level of about 5-6 competing products. I am just wondering that we only got a glimpse of the cello (the most ugly demo though) and not a single hint on the viola or bass. The marketing startegy seems questionable at least....


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## Cheezus (Nov 6, 2020)

Worst demos I've ever heard. Do they want to sell this or...?


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## MartinH. (Nov 6, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> I don't see that one on the website, but I just listened to tThe Journey by Phillip Klein and Nella Fantasia. and I like the sound of those a lot.
> 
> And here is Itzhak Perlman. Again, I can't prove it but I suspect if I posted just the audio and said it was a sample library, many here would say, the vibrato sounds fake.




Am I weird for not liking that vibrato in the video either?


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## stfciu (Nov 6, 2020)

I generally don't interupt such discussions but I decided in this case to present my point of view.

I think it is time to pull some cold water bucket guys  No need for such emotional approach. I respect all of the opinions and I fully understand why there are both negative and positive ones. The point of view relates to where you sit 

I agree with Jay that the library itselt has very nice tone and from what I heard till now I would rate it as above avarage. It is not groundbraking. It is just a solid libarary that has its pros and cons. The intro price is reasonable as well comparing to competition (we should take that too into consideration). I cannot agree however with opinions that nearly say it is a "trash" (that at least is my feeling from what I read).

However I also agree that there are obvious flaws, in my opinion for example the vibrato, despite its possibiliites of customization, is not sounding well and needs some very hard programming to sound ok which I think the demo composers did not put much effort in and that shows the library in a bad light. I did not like the demos as well and the reverb put on it is aweful. However I heard some drier examples in the walkthroughs as and I see some potential. I think some third party walkthrough could give us much more information. Also I have strong feeling that if someone like Andy Blaney or Sasha Knorr would made a demo of it, that possibly would sound top notch 

To sum up.

Kirk released another product that for sure he put a lot of effort in and this library confirms that. Maybe it does not match all of our present expectations which I understand as the vi market actually made significant progress throughout recent years. Sometimes I sit and I can't believe at that very moment we have so many quality tools to compose music at such high degree of authenticity with our "computers" that frequently match actual live recordings. This is unbelieveble (I remember when I started writing in midi with my atari )

I have a lot of respect for Mr Hunter. He is one of the guys that started all of it. Despite this product might not be something that will turn the market upside down, he did give us another interesting alternative.

So please, let's try to evaluate it objectively and treat ourselves politely (these are really hard times for everybody and we need lot of love now )

EDIT: I would recommend to send a free copy to @Cory Pelizzari so he could evaluate the product as I think most of us agree that he is one of the most objective reviewers in the VI community 

Br
Sebastian


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## chapbot (Nov 6, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Am I weird for not liking that vibrato in the video either?


No, you are not weird, you have a good ear.


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## filipjonathan (Nov 6, 2020)

If you guys think that the biggest faults with this library are vibrato and the reverbs in the demos then I really don't know...

Listen to this! As soon as he starts playing at 0:27 is sounds like crap. 0:54 again, crap! It literally sounds like a Casio toy keyboard from 20 years ago. And this is marketed as a proffesional library... I don't know what's wrong with us...


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## ysnyvz (Nov 6, 2020)

filipjonathan said:


> It literally sounds like a Casio toy keyboard from 20 years ago.


How dare you insult Casio toy keyboard from 20 years ago? Ramin Djawadi said he used only its sounds in Game of Thrones.


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## labornvain (Nov 6, 2020)

I think it's admirable what Kirk Hunter is trying to do, and that is to break through what, for lack of a better term, may be called the vibrato barrier.

By this I mean the limitations of sample based libraries, with baked in vibrato to achieve a realistic performance.

To achieve a realistic vibrato performance requires a fluid and seamless transition between states of pitch and amplitude modulation, and it requires tempo synchronization as well.

Of course recorded vibrato sounds better but the ability to control it is pretty much non existent.I mean, velocity layers? Please. It's archaic. And it leaves me wholly unsatisfied with pretty much every string library I own.

So Kurt Hunter is trying to pioneer some new ground here in the results have been mixed. While the control ability of the vibrato in this library is fairly well unsurpassed, unfortunately he still has to employ Kontact's pitch shifting algorithm.

You want to know what sounds horrible? Kontact's pitch shifting algorithm. I have to keep a brown paper bag over my pitch bend just to maintain the esthetic of my studio. 

Maybe native instruments could cut a deal with Elastique which, to my ear, has the only pitch bending capability that is smooth enough to be ready for prime time. But of course that won't happen.

So currently it appears we only have the options of Kontact or modeled instruments to synthetically produce an extremely controllable and realistic vibrato performance. And they both have their flaws.

At least Kirk hunter is trying to break through the vibro barrier with sample based instruments. I think this deserves some respect and appreciation.

It certainly doesn't deserve the kind of animus and vitriol on display here which, frankly, comes off as somewhat bizarre, and suggest a lack of both intellectual and spiritual development.

I mean, seriously. WTF? Blokes just trying to make some noise and you guys are acting like something out of the Crucible.

Mean people suck.


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## timbit2006 (Nov 6, 2020)

The one demo everyone was critisizing got taken down, I was just about to listen to it again for reference.


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## SupremeFist (Nov 6, 2020)

Once you take a step back and remind yourself that all solo string libraries sound terrible, this does not stand out as significantly more terrible. It sounds better than other things for some stuff, and worse for other stuff, like most new products.


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## AceAudioHQ (Nov 6, 2020)

timbit2006 said:


> The one demo everyone was critisizing got taken down, I was just about to listen to it again for reference.



Do you mean this one  ?


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## raidmarji (Nov 6, 2020)

Really strange. I have this library and consider it one of the best if not the best. It sounds 100% realistic and the bowing is a killer. May be the demos didn't show all the functions but my opinion is that it is made by a professional for PROFESSIONALS.


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## timbit2006 (Nov 6, 2020)

AceAudioHQ said:


> Do you mean this one  ?



Ah that's the one.


This demo sounds arguably okay.

The manual says that the Guarnerius violin which the library advertises heavily doesn't actually have the same vibrato or sample intro detuning that the others have so I wonder what demos use that with the real vibrato vs the fake vibrato of the other string instruments. The advertising is definitely a bit misleading there. One of the Cello's samples are apparently also recorded by HR Strings in Jordan


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## Ashermusic (Nov 6, 2020)

There are two versions of the Guanarius, the regular and the “Romantic “. The Romantic doesn’t give you control over the vibrato , the other does.


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## LamaRose (Nov 6, 2020)

re-peat said:


> No, I don’t like it, *Polka*. And if a developer wants my respect, he or she has to release a product that earns it. I can converse very respectfully when inspired to do so. But that’s a highly unlikely contingency in KH’s miserable case.
> 
> We also seem to have different opinions, you and I, on what the word ‘professional’ means and implies. Yours appears to be an interpretation that likes to see us all restrained in polite, civil and harmless conversation. That spineless, pseudo-civil, hypocriticial conduct that has to pass for 'professionalism'. Which I detest. I see it a little differently. It’s precisely my view of what professionalism is — a passion and desire for quality work, and an expectation that people approach their commercial and creative endeavours with pride, self-respect as well as respect for their customers — that makes me say the things I say in the manner I say them. Because I don’t see that type of professionalism in the material which KH releases. It is in fact so devoid of it that it offends both the musician and the professional in me. You may have a hard time understanding it, but I am in fact at my most respectful and professional in these KH threads. Precisely because those words mean something to me, and are not to be feigned or bandied willy-nilly.
> 
> ...



Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. See ya in fight club some night.


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## timbit2006 (Nov 6, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> There are two versions of the Guanarius, the regular and the “Romantic “. The Romantic doesn’t give you control over the vibrato , the other does.


What do you think is the instrument in "The Journey" posted above? The vibrato on that one sounds significantly better than the other demos.


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## nolotrippen (Nov 6, 2020)

Frankly…I like the way it sounds.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 6, 2020)

timbit2006 said:


> What do you think is the instrument in "The Journey" posted above? The vibrato on that one sounds significantly better than the other demos.



I will ask Kirk.


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## charlieclouser (Nov 6, 2020)

re-peat said:


> sure, these people may have used KH libraries at one time in their career — I did too when I started out (rough times) — and it’s even possible that they hang on to certain patches from certain libraries because in their own idiosyncratic way these bizarre stringoïd sounds can deliver exactly what is needed for a certain part in a piece of music (provided that what’s needed is not a good and realistic stringsound), but that being said, the simple truth is: scour the earth and its enveloping galaxies, and you won’t find a single good-sounding orchestral mock-up made with KH libraries.



That's exactly why I do still hang on to, and use, ancient Kirk Hunter string libraries that I converted from Akai S-1000 CD-ROMs 20+ years ago - because they sound the way I want them to sound. I have no interest in, and no need to create, "realistic orchestral mockups". That way lies madness. A week of long nights spent drawing in mod wheel curves to try and create a two-dimensional version of what the real players could do in an hour? No thank you.

I still use the old S-1000 KH tremolo strings specifically because the trem is so gentle and subtle that you can barely tell if it's a tremolo or a normal sustain articulation. That tiny bit of wiggle / wobble sounds different to any of the other libraries I have, and is just what I want to hear.

For the kind of projects I score, and the kind of music I do, realism is not important in the way it might be for others. Emotional reaction is. I prefer to make some unholy impressionistic version of the music in my head anyway. And, unlike during my years of making records, not once has any director, producer, or dubbing mixer ever had a single comment on the realism vs fake-ness, which mic preamp or compressor I used, or any other aspect of the score other than the emotional response it evoked. So that makes the gig easy!

That's why I still use Kirk Hunter libraries, both new and old. They sound like the string sounds in my head.


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## wilifordmusic (Nov 6, 2020)

Nicely spoken (written) charlie. 
If the tool does the job it stays in the toolbox for the thing it does best.
Real musicians are still the only way to get "real" performances.
And not everyone needs that to make music.

Sorry if this doesn't make sense to everyone.


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## charlieclouser (Nov 6, 2020)

To sidetrack for a minute, by far the most valuable skill / talent in my toolbox is the ability to decode, describe, and discuss emotional responses to music, and understand how and why they occur. I may not know what the name of the chord is, but I know how it makes me feel - and I can discuss it with civilians (directors, producers, show runners) because I am a civilian myself.

An example that locked down a gig for me: In a meeting for a possible tv series gig, watching the three scenes I was to score (for free, in two days) as an audition. I had not yet seen an entire episode, and barely knew what the damn thing was even about. They play me an isolated scene, where a man is reluctantly saying goodbye to a woman. Final fatal-illness goodbye? Divorce? Going to meet his doom? Who knows - I had no context other than what the actors were saying and doing in that one scene. 

There was a temp score in place. Very light and subtle, Thomas Newman style, little tinkly bits of distant piano and sustained high strings with very little movement. I was asked what I thought of the temp, how I would approach the scene, and what I might do differently. My response was something like:

"This temp cue makes it sound like they're in love, like they're going to have some tearful romantic reunion in the next act or something. But I think it shouldn't feel like they're in love, there shouldn't be even a hint of romance. Emotion, yes. Poignant yet hopeful, sure. But not romantic. I mean, they're not about to fuck, are they? I think the size and diameter of the temp are right, the ingredients are correct, but the chords and the notes are wrong. It needs to evoke LOVE, yes - but more like brother-sister love, not romantic love. So I'd keep the form but change the content."

The producer and show runner in the room with me looked at each other and grinned, and said, "Exactly. That's where we were trying to get to but couldn't find the right temp cue, and kind of didn't know how to describe what was wrong. Think you could do something like that?"

Of course I said yes, even though I had no idea whether I actually could. But I did music that I thought was appropriate, and I got the gig.

Did I know before I started what chords would be brotherly-sisterly correct, and which would make it sound like the characters were about to get married? No way. But I knew as I experimented what sounded wrong, and what sounded less wrong. Rinse and repeat until satisfied.

Did it matter whether the strings I used sounded realistic? Not one bit. I demo'd the cue with Malmsjo piano, the good ol' Kirk Hunter tremolo-but-not-tremolo strings, and one icy high note on the violins sul-pont-trems from the old EWQLSO - and that's what wound up going to air some months later. To be fair, the cue was so minimalistic that I could probably have done it with factory ROM sounds from a JV-1080 or something and nobody would have noticed or cared. The distant, indistinct character of those sounds helped give the cue a dreamy, impressionistic feel that I though was much more appropriate than some frighteningly realistic rendition, which would have made me feel like, "Dang, bro, back up a few feet! Fucking scraping violins two inches from my face, chill out and back up!"

So it was the emotional reaction that won the day, not the realism, legato transitions, or number of mic positions. 

And I didn't need any vibrato.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 6, 2020)

timbit2006 said:


> What do you think is the instrument in "The Journey" posted above? The vibrato on that one sounds significantly better than the other demos.



Kirk responded. That is the regular Guanerius, which gives you more control than the Romantic version.


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## wilifordmusic (Nov 6, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> To sidetrack for a minute, by far the most valuable skill / talent in my toolbox is the ability to decode, describe, and discuss emotional responses to music, and understand how and why they occur. I may not know what the name of the chord is, but I know how it makes me feel - and I can discuss it with civilians (directors, producers, show runners) because I am a civilian myself.
> 
> An example that locked down a gig for me: In a meeting for a possible tv series gig, watching the three scenes I was to score (for free, in two days) as an audition. I had not yet seen an entire episode, and barely knew what the damn thing was even about. They play me an isolated scene, where a man is reluctantly saying goodbye to a woman. Final fatal-illness goodbye? Divorce? Going to meet his doom? Who knows - I had no context other than what the actors were saying and doing in that one scene.
> 
> ...



Thanks. Every time you choose to share your experiences the rest of us get a reminder/education on the true nature of music. It doesn't matter if it is meant to sound alone or contribute to another medium (picture/dance, etc...)


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## Casiquire (Nov 6, 2020)

No. I'm not naming names or dropping my opinion on the library right now but I do need to say that all people deserve respect until they lose it, and releasing a "bad" sample library does not lose a person their human respect. The comments here are wrong and truly disgusting.


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## timbit2006 (Nov 6, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Kirk responded. That is the regular Guanerius, which gives you more control than the Romantic version.


Thanks! That's good to know it could have potential. It has a very up front and in your face tone, while it's maybe unrealistic something like that has uses when adding effects for hybrid orchestral stuff. The tone kinda reminds me of a karplus-strong waveguide synth though, especially the slurs.

Hopefully someone can use the wrench and get us some screenshots of the sample page so we know about round robins and what the situation with the legato and slurs is, whether it's sampled or programmed. I also wonder how long the intro period even is. I guess I could e-mail Kirk Hunter about my questions.


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## Andy_P (Nov 6, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> That's why I still use Kirk Hunter libraries, both new and old. They sound like the string sounds in my head.



So true. I still use and love some string patches from oldest UVI and Emu E4 factory strings


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## Kevinside (Nov 7, 2020)

I dont know Kirk Hunter, but this library is not good at all...
My question, is it not allowed to criticise a product, which is now released...
And yes listen to this strange note jumps at the end of the nella fantasia demo...
Sry... If a library is bad, then it is... KH is selling a product and in this case, its normal to look and to think about it... For me personally, this library is nothing for me...


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## Crowe (Nov 7, 2020)

Kevinside said:


> I dont know Kirk Hunter, but this library is not good at all...
> My question, is it not allowed to criticise a product, which is now released...
> And yes listen to this strange note jumps at the end of the nella fantasia demo...
> Sry... If a library is bad, then it is... KH is selling a product and in this case, its normal to look and to think about it... For me personally, this library is nothing for me...



Don't be daft man. Of course you're allowed to criticize a product. You're even allowed to go to town on the product with all the hatred you can muster and try to absolutely destroy a developer with any and all words known to you.

It's just, if you're a decent person you'd usually just stick to saying you don't like it, explain why and go on with your day without feeling the need to do that last bit.

Example. All those ...'s you use drive me up the freakin' wall. But I'm not going to attack you personally for it. You know. Decency.


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## MusicStudent (Nov 7, 2020)

Well not much more needs to be said.... but, that won't stop me. Ya, as a new comer I was a bit surprised by the negative comments (not what I had been seeing up to this point). On top of that, I own KH libraries and really like what I have. In the early days as a newbee I had to contact support at KH to figure out how to install a library. I dropped an email and quickly got a completed response, ... from KH himself. So, I agree in this crap time of covid lets stay on the high road.


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## kitekrazy (Nov 7, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> Once you take a step back and remind yourself that all solo string libraries sound terrible, this does not stand out as significantly more terrible. It sounds better than other things for some stuff, and worse for other stuff, like most new products.



I never buy solo strings. I think you have to know how to play the instruments to do them well.


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## sostenuto (Nov 7, 2020)

Patiently awaiting comment from purchasers of Lyric Series String Quintet. Have several KH Studios Libs and looking forward to more complete understanding of what this one brings. 
Modest skills in this arena and do not purchase based on early audio demos. 
Limited User Demo(s) are greatly appreciated.


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## Sid Francis (Nov 7, 2020)

Jay: would you be able to do just some romantic noodeling with the viola? Is there a viola at all? Themarketing really is a bit obscure here. I ask because normally I am more interested in a good / alternative viola than a good violin.


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## cmillar (Nov 7, 2020)

I too have used KH libraries for years. Why? Because I can make music with them far more easily than many other libraries.

Not every composer in the world or this forum writes exclusively for high end film projects with huge budgets, nor does everyone in this forum dedicate their lives to replicating pre-existing orchestral masterpieces, or to see if they can pull off a sound like the latest film score of their heroes.

In my variety of professional projects (some video stuff, music for live performance artists, multimedia stuff, dance, equestrian, live giving with real musicians) I’ve had many people say “what orchestra did you use?”

I tell them KH (or VSL) libraries. And hey, I know what sounds good or bad.

KH libraries always come through.


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## AndyP (Nov 7, 2020)

There are probably only a few developers on which the spirits divide so much.

I like my KH Libraries, they have something of their own that I like. With the 4D strings it took me a while to find the right use case for them. They also work differently than other libraires and I had to work a lot harder on them until it sounded the way I wanted it to. But it was possible.
With the older ones it was somehow easier.

Solo strings are probably the most thankless task in the sample market. Because of the demos I would not buy this librariy. But maybe someone will create a convincing walkthrough or demos that will bring more light into the dark.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 7, 2020)

Sid Francis said:


> Jay: would you be able to do just some romantic noodeling with the viola? Is there a viola at all? Themarketing really is a bit obscure here. I ask because normally I am more interested in a good / alternative viola than a good violin.



Sid, yes there is a viola. I will be happy to do that tomorrow and send it you privately, but I am not going to do it publicly because after years here, I know what will happen and as they say, the definition of crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Andy P. if "The Journey" doesn't sell you on it , I don't think anyone else's will because I think it shows the library well. 

Also, I am not here to sell anyone on anyone's libraries. I gave that up when I stopped being employed by EW. I just say what I like and what I don't and people are free to agree or disagree.


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## Sid Francis (Nov 7, 2020)

Hey Jay...that´s exactlx what I wanted to propose in the first moment, you are totally right. And: the journey really sounds good.


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## RogiervG (Nov 8, 2020)

You have folks that like the library for whatever reason, you have folks that don't like the library for whatever reason. No need to "prove" eachother of being right. Sound is subjective often. I heard recording of real violins (solo and section) that sounded very bad, and some very good. Same with sample libraries.

i'm in the "i don't like the tone, sounds thin, and realism" camp for this library.. but that is just MY ears being a judge of sound. Yours might be different, that's totally fine. I respect every developer, incl Kirk, but that doesn't mean i have to like all libraries.


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## synthnut1 (Nov 8, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> All you have to do is look at the difference between how Biden is behaving vs Trump and you see the difference civility makes.
> 
> It should apply just as well here. There is literally no point that is made more/less valid by employing snarkiness, condescension, and mocking in the post. And if you find that kind of behavior entertaining, IMHO, it does not reflect well on your character.



Funny !!! I was thinking this EXACTLY !!!......you literally took the words right outa my mouth (sounds like some good lyrics to a song )


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 8, 2020)

Nice sax on Nella Fantasia...


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## AllanH (Nov 8, 2020)

I actually find the Lyrical Series a huge step up from the "Spotlight Solo Strings", which I have. I do not have the Lyrical Series, but based on the demos I actually like the tone of the instruments and the YouTube demos make it seem very playable. I do not especially like aggressive vibrato and in that sense, this library seems to offer a good way to have more mellow vib based on velocity instead of CC-vibrato. I'm somewhat taken aback by the super-negative opinions - I would give this one a look.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 8, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> To sidetrack for a minute, by far the most valuable skill / talent in my toolbox is the ability to decode, describe, and discuss emotional responses to music, and understand how and why they occur. I may not know what the name of the chord is, but I know how it makes me feel - and I can discuss it with civilians (directors, producers, show runners) because I am a civilian myself.
> 
> An example that locked down a gig for me: In a meeting for a possible tv series gig, watching the three scenes I was to score (for free, in two days) as an audition. I had not yet seen an entire episode, and barely knew what the damn thing was even about. They play me an isolated scene, where a man is reluctantly saying goodbye to a woman. Final fatal-illness goodbye? Divorce? Going to meet his doom? Who knows - I had no context other than what the actors were saying and doing in that one scene.
> 
> ...


That’s an excellent post to describe emotional intelligence and interpreting the desires and intentions of directors, then breaking things down into musical terms.

To be fair though, it really doesn’t speak to the viability of a library just because a sound works for you in a particular setting (though it’s a great anecdote.) Library purchases are generally made on their overall merits. I still use sounds from the Roland 700 system because they’ve been in my head since 1994-that doesn’t mean I’d buy those libraries today. The vibrato IS a possible issue-I’ve been working on a sampled string quartet for a month using other libraries-the skittery vibrato of the main one I’m using is challenging.

I’ve often thought my friend Piet’s reaction to KH libraries was hyperbolic, but I also always wonder the same thing-he may not be being CIVIL, but if he’s WRONG, where are the user demos that disprove his opinion? That, to me, is where the rubber meets the road.


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## raidmarji (Nov 8, 2020)

AllanH said:


> I actually find the Lyrical Series a huge step up from the "Spotlight Solo Strings", which I have. I do not have the Lyrical Series, but based on the demos I actually like the tone of the instruments and the YouTube demos make it seem very playable. I do not especially like aggressive vibrato and in that sense, this library seems to offer a good way to have more mellow vib based on velocity instead of CC-vibrato. I'm somewhat taken aback by the super-negative opinions - I would give this one a look.



You are 100% right, I have the library and it sounds amazing with a lot of new ideas, besides you can control the vibrato


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## Akarin (Nov 8, 2020)

No bias whatsoever, I have some KH libraries (deleted them all, though). These demos make my ears bleed.


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## ism (Nov 8, 2020)

In fairness, by re-peat’s standards, that not a bad review at all 

He’s always good at bringing us down to earth about how terrible sample libraries always, always are compared to real musicians. And nowhere is this more true that solo strings. Even my very favourite ones.

There’s no question that there are things this library does badly. What I’d like is a little more insight into its sweet spots vs what to avoid.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 8, 2020)

I'm reaching out to KH through a certain third party (I won't divulge his name, but his initials are Jay Asher) to take up Piet's challenge. Piet, bless him, knows as well as anyone how much I struggle with quartet production as he has listened to 3 or 4 of mine and made excellent suggestions. I think he also knows that I can write a little.

If KH will provide me with an NFR, I'll take up Piet's challenge as an attempt to take this long standing debate to a constructive place.


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## stfciu (Nov 8, 2020)

NFR copy for everybody in this thread


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## NYC Composer (Nov 8, 2020)

stfciu said:


> NFR copy for everybody in this thread


Are you all going to put substantial time in to write a good demo and polish it?


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## timbit2006 (Nov 8, 2020)

The moment we've all been waiting for.
If I take off my left headphone it sounds decent, I could see it being useful but the actual price is way too high especially considering alternatives at that price point.
Please remember to use your inside font when responding though, this thread is controversial and angry enough


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## Gerbil (Nov 8, 2020)

timbit2006 said:


> The moment we've all been waiting for.
> If I take off my left headphone it sounds decent, I could see it being useful but the actual price is way too high especially considering alternatives at that price point.
> Please remember to use your inside font when responding though, this thread is controversial and angry enough



I've never used Notion so have no idea what sounds it comes with, but I'd personally just stick with the library that comes with Sibelius than purchase this library for this purpose.


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## Zero&One (Nov 9, 2020)

re-peat said:


> my experience with KH’s _libraries_ — the ones I bought myself (Virtuoso Strings, Emerald, Studio Strings)



Why did you keep buying them? You must have liked 1 if you bought another 2?

You might as well add this to your collection I say.


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## re-peat (Nov 9, 2020)

'Virtuoso Strings' was the first one, a looooong time ago. Might have even been KH’s first release, I can’t remember. The other two came a few years later. ‘Studio Strings’ I bought because, as I recall, there’s wasn’t anything else available at the time in the way of a flexible chamber/studio strings section. And ‘Emerald’ I might have purchased because I wanted to know it inside out before commenting on it. I often buy things just to make sure that when I write about them, I do so well-informed and accurately. And without any obligation to the developer.

So, yeah, you're right, perhaps I should buy the Lyric Quartet. But I have a wavering eye on the Nashville's at the moment ... so, if I purchase anything in the coming days, orchestral-libraries-wise, it's very unlikely that it will be the Lyric Quartet.

_


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## WhiteNoiz (Nov 9, 2020)

Just out of curiosity... What do people think of this?


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## Polkasound (Nov 9, 2020)

WhiteNoiz said:


> Just out of curiosity... What do people think of this?



Nice sound, nice tune, but the quantization is a little difficult on my ears.


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## MartinH. (Nov 9, 2020)

WhiteNoiz said:


> Just out of curiosity... What do people think of this?



I like it a lot more than the official KH demos. If this is the same library, you did something right imho. But I suspect it's a different library, my best bet being an unreleased beta version of Infinite Strings.


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## FlyingAndi (Nov 9, 2020)

WhiteNoiz said:


> Just out of curiosity... What do people think of this?


I'm sorry, but I don't like the string going dee-do-dee-do-dee-do at all. Something about the decay is very unnatural.
It starts to sound better when the flute and the rest of the orchestra kicks in.
It has a kind of Harry-Potter-vibe.


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## ummon (Nov 9, 2020)

WhiteNoiz said:


> Just out of curiosity... What do people think of this?



I like the tone of woods and low strings. IMO would need more dynamics and off the grid approach. There's something familiar here, KH Diamond maybe?


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## Kent (Nov 9, 2020)

WhiteNoiz said:


> Just out of curiosity... What do people think of this?


Is there a heavy bit depth reduction on this? Except for the flute, it sounds like a Super Nintendo-style PCM.


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## Mike Greene (Nov 9, 2020)

I suppose I should chime in on this ... 

Yes, Piet's post was brutal. Maybe even too brutal. But that's Piet. He takes full ownership of his words and doesn't hide behind an anonymous profile. (As I've explained in the forum rules, that buys someone a lot more privilege than an anonymous member.)

Sure, we may wish he were more tactful at times, but any forum veteran knows that his music is *really* good, and his posts are very well thought out, so he adds a lot of value to the forum and has earned a lot of leeway. (And I have to confess, his writing is so artful that I can't help but admire it and look forward to his posts. I know I'm not alone in that.)

I'll go out on a limb here, but after participating here as long as I have, I've come to believe that "brutal" is not necessarily worse than "civil" jabs. If Kirk reads Piet's post, no doubt he'll be pissed off about it. But would he really be happier if Piet had said what he said in a "nicer and more civil" way? The meaning would still be the same. Someone can still be cut to shreds by "civil" posts.

Andrew K stopped posting on this forum after someone (a certain KH defender here) was so relentless with his tuning criticisms of LASS. They were all "civil" remarks under the guise of _"I'm someone who considers it dishonest to not speak my mind,"_ but the effect was the same. Or check out Embertone's release announcement of Arcane years ago and take a guess why Alex and Jonathan no longer post here. Same guy dropping turds in the punchbowl that made the forum experience unpleasant for them. None of those turds were rule violations, but ... there they were.

That's not to say I'm condoning brutal posts. But by now, we all (including Kirk) know Piet's style, so we read his posts with that in mind.

Another factor to consider is that Kirk isn't really a "member" here in the typical sense. Sure, he posts here to sell his products, but that's it. So, cold as this may sound, "Kirk Hunter" is a business entity here, not really a "member." Don't get me wrong, I like and respect Kirk. We've hung out at NAMM and we even used to go the same gym. But this is not the same situation as, say, Paul and Christian, where they interact with the community outside of Spitfire.

Also, this is not a Commercial Announcement thread. If it were, then absolutely, I'd deleted the posts. (Unless Kirk asked me not to. In fact, I'd probably ask him first, since some companies prefer their CA threads not be moderated.) Not that all bets are off in Sample Talk, of course, but this is the place where criticism is allowed.

In that same vein, tactless or otherwise, Piet's post really is, at least in my opinion, an example of "Musicians helping musicians." VI-Control owes its existence to the fact that Northern Sounds (where all us old timers came from) did _not_ allow critical posts. I wasted many a dollar in those days on rave "reviews" of libraries that sucked. So on _this_ forum, if a library has flaws, we need to know about them. That's what the forum is for. (Well, the _real_ purpose of the forum is to make me money, of course, but publicly, I pretend it's all about you, our valued members!)

Here's the thing - Piet's post is only one man's opinion. People have disagreed and that's great, too, although it's hard to ignore that no one is taking Piet up on the challenge to post something that sounds good. Hopefully Larry's connection (I haven't been able to decipher his cryptic hint as to who this connection is) comes through and he'll post something. To me, that would be a great progression for the thread, wouldn't it? For someone interested in this product who stumbles across this thread, they're going to be glad they found it. Sure, there was a little ugliness along the way, but what a great resource, which is ultimately what the forum is for.

Now, I fully realize that these are my opinions, and at least one moderator disagrees with me on most of it. I am definitely not claiming I'm getting this one right.

But ... we didn't hear about any of this until Saturday, two days after Piet's first post. So by the time we got here, any "damage" (I concede that's a valid opinion) was already done. In other words, moderating Piet's post at this point doesn't make it so Kirk is no longer insulted. Can't put that genie back in the barn. Plus trying to do so would quash what could be a very valuable look into this Lyric Series Quartet if someone steps up with audio examples.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 9, 2020)

In case you mean me, Mike, to the best of my memory I always said about LASS that there were tuning issues that didn’t bother _me_ personally, but bothered some others, like my friend, the composer Bruce Miller. I also said that I didn’t think it was a pretty sounding library but was great for more aggressive music.

I Don’t think any reasonable person would describe that as brutal. If my memory is incorrect and I was more harsh than that in some posts, well, I shouldn’t have been. LASS was and is a terrific library that is just not to my personal taste.

if you weren’t referring to me, oh well, at least I clarified.


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## Mike Greene (Nov 9, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> In case you mean me, Mike, to the best of my memory I always said about LASS that there were tuning issues that didn’t bother _me_ personally, but bothered some others, like my friend, the composer Bruce Miller. I also said that I didn’t think it was a pretty sounding library but was great for more aggressive music.
> 
> I Don’t think any reasonable person would describe that as brutal. If my memory is incorrect and I was more harsh than that in some posts, well, I shouldn’t have been. LASS was and is a terrific library that is just not to my personal taste.
> 
> if you weren’t referring to me, oh well, at least I clarified.


File this one under "Missed the point." I mean, "Wow, really missed the point."

You're absolutely right. No one would describe that as brutal. And that's exactly my point!

You see, your "civil" alternative way of repeating again ... and again ... and again .. and again ... that LASS has various flaws, including that you felt the need to report those flaws on behalf of someone who isn't even here ... those take a toll just as much. Andrew left the forum. And that was why.

So no, you weren't brutal. But the result was the same. Same with Embertone. No, there was nothing "brutal" about your repeated _"I don't have time or patience for games" _remarks in an otherwise joyous thread about a *free* release for Halloween. Result - Alex and Jonathan are now gone.

Or why was it necessary to tell Jayden you didn't like his composition when he made the piece partially at your request? Again, it wasn't brutal, but I can't imagine that was a pleasant read for him.

I'm not writing this to bash you. I'm writing this to point out that "civil and honest" can be just as hurtful as "brutal." At least with brutal, there's no pretense that the writer is taking the high road.


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## chemie262 (Nov 9, 2020)

I bought the library yesterday. So this is more or less out of the box.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 9, 2020)

Big fella, I have also praised and written positive reviews of several Embertone products and I talk to Alex regularly on FB. if he isn’t posting here, it isn’t because of me.

But I agree, people, including me, should state a negative opinion once ot twice and then let it go and if I did not do that with LASS back in the day, I should have.

And yes, the Jayden comment was unnecessary, as I said later. BUT it wasn’t brutal and I only said it once. You are supposedly a champion of that kind of comment so are you not being a bit selective here?

Anyway, I love you brother but we may have to agree to disagree and I stand by my opinion that frank but civil, unhyperbolical negative comments should be what we all encourage. Especially you.


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## MartinH. (Nov 9, 2020)

chemie262 said:


> I bought the library yesterday. So this is more or less out of the box.



Thanks for sharing! Is it possible to turn all vibrato off and post that as a comparison, or would that be a lot of work? In Reaper I think there's a plugin that can filter out CC messages from midi data and replace the value with something else. 

From what library are those ensemble strings at the beginning?


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## nolotrippen (Nov 9, 2020)

chemie262 said:


> I bought the library yesterday. So this is more or less out of the box.


Not too shabby


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## FinGael (Nov 9, 2020)

Have to find some tin foil. Just a sec. Ok. Ready...

Maybe you are all working for Mr Hunter, because reading this thread made it really tempting for me to buy the library and test what I would be able to come up with it...

_(Disclaimer: I have the Diamond Orchestra and have sadly never received any free libraries from any developer)_


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## chemie262 (Nov 9, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Thanks for sharing! Is it possible to turn all vibrato off and post that as a comparison, or would that be a lot of work? In Reaper I think there's a plugin that can filter out CC messages from midi data and replace the value with something else.
> 
> From what library are those ensemble strings at the beginning?


This is the version with all vibrato off.
The ensemble is from Symphony Series, Native Instruments


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## José Herring (Nov 9, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> For the kind of projects I score, and the kind of music I do, realism is not important in the way it might be for others. Emotional reaction is. I prefer to make some unholy impressionistic version of the music in my head anyway.



I find that's how you do make it sound realistic. This stuff never really sounds like the real thing but if you strive to make a musical emotional impact, then you'll fool people into thinking it's the real thing. The only danger is if your mock ups create such an impact then the real thing might be a let down if you later replace your mock up. But, I'm not sure that really matters any more for the mostly streaming market that most indies strive for these days.


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## giwro (Nov 9, 2020)

I’ve been reading this thread, and I have mixed feelings. But, I wanted to present some thoughts from the perspective of someone who produces samples for sale.

Now, I’m not well-known on this board as a sample producer - I produce content for the pipe organ emulation software “Hauptwerk”, and that’s admittedly a fringe content... But, many of the concepts we’ve seen discussed here still carry over to what I do, and so I thought I’d give some thoughts.

First, a story...
I had been producing pipe organ sets for a number of years, and I thought I really knew what I was doing. And, what I was doing wasn’t horrible, and in all honesty when I started it was probably acceptable quality. 
I started work on a new set, and in the process, I asked some folks well-known in the organ sample world to try out the pre-release Beta and do some demos in preparation for the release.
I don’t know how to say this politely, but they essentially savaged the product and (as kindly as possible) told me that it was in no way ready for release, and at best was a rough early Alpha, and in no way did it deserve to be considered a RTM (release to market) candidate.

I was pissed. I’d just spent hundreds of hours editing samples and doing all of the grunt work to put the set together. I could see there were some problems, but I strongly disagreed that the product was as deficient as they were telling me.
But, I needed some support from influential names to help promote and sell the product.

So, back to the drawing board.

I engaged the help of a person who was an assistant voicer for a pipe organ company, and had him balance and voice the instrument. I did my best to correct what I was being told were the deficiencies.
The result? Same folks basically told me the instrument was still a POS.
I was even more pissed. I finally gave up and released it anyway, and it’s never sold well.

A short time later, I started production on another set. The good news was that the raw material was in much better shape, and I had learned some new techniques of recording.
Apparently, I’d not learned my lesson - I submitted my set to the same people....

And got savaged again.

I did my best to try to correct the faults, perceived and real, and released the set.

It’s never sold well.
Not long after that, I began collaborating with another sample producer who released sets for the same platform. We gave each other pointers and advice, shared what we’d learned. Before long, we decided to pool our knowledge and combine our catalogs under one company.
I decided to try one more time, and submitted one of my new partner’s sets to the same “experts” (yeah, I’m sometimes not the brightest).


Well...
This set was torn to shreds as well.
At this point, I was wondering if perhaps I just was asking the wrong people for feedback. So, I widened my search for people to help.
And, while the feedback was kinder in the way it was presented, the content was essentially the same - the set wasn’t vetted correctly, and was chock full of issues.
So, I began testing the set myself extensively. (Now, remember - I didn’t produce this one, I inherited it, so I was much further removed - and hopefully less biased, since it wasn’t “my” product)
Pretty much all of the criticism was warranted. Ouch.
And so, I want back and checked every loop, every sample, every release...

I found over 3000 deficiencies and errors that needed correcting.
Once that was complete, I re-submitted the set to one of the testers. His response?

“It’s like a completely new instrument, I love playing it, and it’s simply amazing”.

Well, crap.


The result - we’ve released 2 new instruments since then, and also went back and redid the editing of samples on another one and re-released it. We’re near release of a 3rd instrument.

We instituted some preemptive quality control steps at the beginning of the process, and a rigorous testing protocol for every sample WAV file.
The response has been gratifying - respected users have said “this is the best work you have ever put out....”

Now, if I’d not been criticized, (granted, privately) and taken it to heart, we’d still be putting out crap. And, it’s taken 2 years of hard work to get there, and begin to establish a good reputation.

There was a certain amount of criticism on public forums, but it was muted. What it took was some brutal honesty from people telling me privately “this is not acceptable, and you shouldn’t be releasing it”. Furthermore, it was from people I respect, and with whom I have a relationship already.
The caveat:
Even the muted criticism on public forums totally trashed our sales. And, it did little to convince me... I needed it from folks I trust (even though I was monumentally pissed to hear it).

I don’t know if Kirk has people he trusts who will do the same for him, or if he can receive it if he does... I hope so. And, while I support honest public review, I would say that if not done tactfully it can really hurt, especially after one has spent hundreds or thousands of hours prepping their ”baby” for release.

But then, on the other hand... if you don’t know, you can’t grow.
So, see why I’m conflicted? 
I’d say, be honest, but try to be kind. Save the brutal honesty for people you actually know well. But that’s just me, I guess. What I want you all to know is that criticism CAN help (and it hurts, too). So I think it’s a complex issue, for sure.
Peace.


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## MartinH. (Nov 9, 2020)

chemie262 said:


> This is the version with all vibrato off.
> The ensemble is from Symphony Series, Native Instruments



Thanks a lot for that! I had a suspicion that what I don't like about the sound of that library was mainly caused by the vibrato, but in direct comparison I feel like the vibrato hides more flaws than it adds. I guess this one just isn't for me. 
Lovely composition though, thanks again for sharing!




giwro said:


> I’ve been reading this thread, and I have mixed feelings. But, I wanted to present some thoughts from the perspective of someone who produces samples for sale.
> 
> Now, I’m not well-known on this board as a sample producer - I produce content for the pipe organ emulation software “Hauptwerk”, and that’s admittedly a fringe content... But, many of the concepts we’ve seen discussed here still carry over to what I do, and so I thought I’d give some thoughts.
> 
> ...



Thank you for sharing that wholesome story!


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## tcollins (Nov 9, 2020)

Congratulations on the new Lyric Series String Quintet, Kirk!
The Journey demo sounds amazing.


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## robgb (Nov 9, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> I don't see that one on the website, but I just listened to tThe Journey by Phillip Klein and Nella Fantasia. and I like the sound of those a lot.
> 
> And here is Itzhak Perlman. Again, I can't prove it but I suspect if I posted just the audio and said it was a sample library, many here would say, the vibrato sounds fake.



It has already been proven here, several years back, that the majority of people on this forum (at least at the time) are unable to tell the difference between some sampled violin packages and the real thing. A blind test was done and most people failed it, as I recall. There's simply too much confirmation bias on this forum.


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## Mike Greene (Nov 9, 2020)

Oy. It appears I haven't handled this as best as it could have been handled, but there are a few things I hope people will consider:

First, VI-Control has always been a minimally moderated forum. In fact, knowing I would continue that philosophy is one of the reasons Frederick agreed to sell it to me. It's not always pretty, but overall, the philosophy works.

Now, perhaps many people think this thread should be an example of where we _do_ step in. That's a perfectly valid opinion. Heck, it's even shared by at least one other moderator. I do the best I can, but nowhere do I say I'm making perfect decisions here. I try, but things won't always be to everyone's liking. Here's the thing, though:

Is this really the hill you want to die on? I know it seems really, really important in the heat of the moment, but I think a little perspective is in order. 99% of the forum is fun, civil and perfectly fine. (Seems that way to me, at least.) By forum standards, that's pretty damn good! So is this thread really such an outrage that it's worth abandoning all the good stuff elsewhere on the forum, all for the sake of the "Battle of Hunter Hill"? Consider a few things:

For starters, Kirk is doing just fine through all of this. He lives in a really nice house and trust me, even with this thread, he's still going to be doing well. _Really_ well. So I'm not so sure that being a martyr for Kirk is quite the noble move people might think it is.

Also note that Kirk hasn't bothered to enter the discussion. The quickest way to defuse the situation would be for him to simply enter the discussion, since it's human nature to be kinder when the person is in the room. But he ain't here. Which is totally his call and totally fine, but again, I think a little perspective is in order for what you're willing to sacrifice for someone _else's_ battle. A battle that that someone else hasn't shown up for.

Also consider that VI-Control probably doesn't figure heavily in Kirk's marketing. (He's never had an ad here, at least not while I've owned the forum. Which is also fine, by the way.) So I'm not so sure how much this thread even matters to him. In fact, as a believer in _"All publicity is good publicity,"_ I'll bet that because of the drama, this thread is selling more product than his other ones.

So I'm going to come back to the "perspective" theme. Is VI-Control perfect? Nope, and with this moron in charge, it never will be. But are those imperfections really so intolerable? I guarantee Kirk isn't crying himself to sleep right now, so I'm not so sure anyone else should, either.


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## ism (Nov 9, 2020)

robgb said:


> It has already been proven here, several years back, that the majority of people on this forum (at least at the time) are unable to tell the difference between some sampled violin packages and the real thing. A blind test was done and most people failed it, as I recall. There's simply too much confirmation bias on this forum.


With respect, I can tell the difference between a spitfire flautando and an OT flautando. otherwise I wouldn’t have bought both. 

And a single instance where a real recording is misidentified isn’t as ‘better than the real thing thing’ isn’t proof - it’s a single data point in an infinite space of expressive possibilities. 

Sample libraries work really well, at best, in whatever sweet spots they’re designed for. A poorly - or ever reasonably well - recorded and or performed real performance - if it happens to be in exactly the same sweet spot of a given sample library might easily sound better than a real performance. There no way a Sample modelling - for all the merits strengths and laudable innovation and sweet spots - will get me anywhere need the sound of the Spitfire Solo Cello in AIR with just the right mix of tree mics. It simply can’t be don’t with existing technology.



If I wanted to mock up, say, an intricate Mozart quartet, Sample Modelling (or Chris Hein, or Kirk Hunter or VSL or etc) would probably sound much better, much more ‘realistic’ that the Spitfire Solo Strings, as this kind of expressiveness is just too far from the library’s sweet spot. But this is also true if I were attempt to perform it myslef.

But there’s a sonority that I love in (for instance) the SF cello, that I love so much that and am perfectly willing to not only buy it, but also to accept the severe limitations in expressiveness that are endemic to the sampling techniques that capture this sonority.

It it was all confirmation bias, wouldn’t this make me a complete idiot?


KH does clearly have some sweet spots. But I don’t think my ear is very well attuned to them at the moment, which is why it’s interesting to hear the opinions like those of yourself and Jay in support of this library are interesting to me.


Nb. Please don’t attempt to mock up Beethoven quartets with Spitfire Solo Strings either. Trust me.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 9, 2020)

Our fearless leader Mike aka the Big Fella, is right, Kirk has a marketing guy who does this for him and doesn’t come here. He is aware of what is said but because he, like me, is secure in himself and his abilities, he doesn’t get upset about it.

And Piet is also correct that he and I reached an agreement a few years back that no matter how heated things got between us, we would accept as a given that we do in fact respect each other.

And none of that changes that I stand by what I wrote.


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## marclawsonmusic (Nov 10, 2020)

Any other user demos? So far, the ones posted do not sound very nice.

Looking forward to Larry's attempt at a mockup.


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## ChristianM (Nov 10, 2020)

whitewasteland said:


> Let's have a listen...


mélanchouille ici ?? LOL


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## WhiteNoiz (Nov 10, 2020)

kmaster said:


> Is there a heavy bit depth reduction on this? Except for the flute, it sounds like a Super Nintendo-style PCM.



Yes, there is a bit on the violas to simulate noise in the original but maybe I overdid it (I admit it's not really the same type of noise, lol). Tried to match it tonally but didn't spend an awful lot of time on it. Just velocities, no automation. Tried to make do with what's available.  Could probably try a different approach, but didn't really focus on that. (I do like the PS1 era synth soundtracks though!)



ummon said:


> I like the tone of woods and low strings. IMO would need more dynamics and off the grid approach. There's something familiar here, KH Diamond maybe?



Yep! (Of course, it's single dynamic, you'd have to simulate it with volume/exp more than what's in the actual patch, but I just brought the velocity in the ballpark and added some tone shaping)



FlyingAndi said:


> I'm sorry, but I don't like the string going dee-do-dee-do-dee-do at all. Something about the decay is very unnatural.
> It starts to sound better when the flute and the rest of the orchestra kicks in.
> It has a kind of Harry-Potter-vibe.



I did mess with the note lengths and releases a bit to simulate a proper flow; it's a bit tricky... Maybe it needs more effort or it's possible it can't be done satisfactorily with the available samples.



Polkasound said:


> Nice sound, nice tune, but the quantization is a little difficult on my ears.



It's not heavily quantized tbh. It's probably a combo of note placement, releases and the actual samples. Maybe I'll have another go at it, just not sure it's worth probably a few extra hours.

In general, for sure, it's not awefully "deep" as a sound (it does lack quite a bit of weight and air), but on the other hand I find it very fast to get results and due to its "shallowness" (lack of detail) or "MIDIness" it's pretty consistent in what you can expect and it also sounds very lively and thick. It's better for layering in general (and more dramatic/soaring lines, not really for realistic soft stuff), it's a bit hard to swallow as a stand-alone. (Of course, it depends on the piece etc) Also, important to note, they're all one single articulation through-out.


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## Rob (Nov 10, 2020)

what I hear in the demos is, along with a good flexibility and agility of the sound (as to be expected from a semi-modeling technique), a strange hollowness in the tone, as if the mid frequencies have been dug severely... might be me though


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## Polkasound (Nov 10, 2020)

PavlovsCat said:


> I definitely don't see any ethical way to justify {Mike Greene's] logic and what he just decided.



I agree with what you're saying, but the thing about being a forum owner is that it's impossible to make a universally acceptable decision. You can only do what you personally think is best under the circumstances at the time. Sometimes you'll come out of it thinking you made the right decision, other times you'll be like, oh crap, what did I just do? If we were all forum owners, we'd all do things a little differently.

I don't agree with Mike's decision to let re-peat's post stay up either, but based on what I wrote above, I'm not going to leave the forum, protest ad nauseam, or have any less respect for Mike. The only thing that would make me leave this forum is if it turned into a cesspool of vicious criticism, like the rest of the internet, but it's going to take a LOT more than just one re-peat to make that happen.




WhiteNoiz said:


> It's not heavily quantized tbh. It's probably a combo of note placement, releases and the actual samples. Maybe I'll have another go at it, just not sure it's worth probably a few extra hours.



Thanks for clarifying. I assumed I was hearing quantization by the way the ostinato string pattern lagged behind the beat. This is typically happens when people quantize every track in their production, whereas as musicians would naturally start their notes ahead of the beat. This anticipation of the beat must be applied to samples as well. And it won't take much time to do; just grab all the notes in your DAW and slide them back until they feel right.


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## bfreepro (Nov 10, 2020)

Returning to discussion on the actual sound of the library, here's some demos


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## bfreepro (Nov 10, 2020)

ism said:


> Ok, done with this thread as there's no actual talk about sample.
> 
> Will keep an eye out for a new one that actually talks about the library though.


Check my demos I posted. I also am sick of the irrelevant drama and nonsense. So let's discuss the demos and bring it back to the actual topic


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## youngpokie (Nov 10, 2020)

bfreepro said:


> Returning to discussion on the actual sound of the library, here's some demos



Thank you for this @bfreepro 

Thre are only two shorts described in the manual (spiccato and sautille) and your examples also seem to have just two. Could you confirm no other shorts are possible (e.g. martele)?

And also just to confirm that you didn't EQ or filter anything and the tone is what comes out of the box?

Cheers


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## bfreepro (Nov 10, 2020)

youngpokie said:


> Thank you for this @bfreepro
> 
> Thre are only two shorts described in the manual (spiccato and sautille) and your examples also seem to have just two. Could you confirm no other shorts are possible (e.g. martele)?
> 
> ...


Correct, no martele or detache or anything. You can adjust the length of the spiccato notes, I'm still trying to figure out how to make the most of it... there are sub-menus for almost everything and a lot of different options to experiment with. I did EQ, but it was very, very minimal. I attached a pic of the EQ I used... just a tiny boost to a certain treble frequency range, I do this on strings that sound more warm/dark as I like a more bright sound. I often am not a fan of "built in" reverb as well for many kontakt libraries, I used Spaces 2 and Valhalla Room for reverb with some panning, and in the instrument GUI, I turned the "ambience" setting ALL the way down so it was bone dry before I sent it thru my reverbs. *Full disclosure: I was given this library specifically to write demos for it. *


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## bfreepro (Nov 10, 2020)

Lets post user demos and discussion here. I did EQ, but it was very, very minimal. I attached a pic of the EQ I used... just a tiny boost to a certain treble frequency range, I do this on strings that sound more warm/dark as I like a more bright sound. I often am not a fan of "built in" reverb as well for many Kontakt libraries, I used Spaces 2 and Valhalla Room for reverb with some panning, and in the instrument GUI, I turned the "ambience" setting ALL the way down so it was bone dry before I sent it thru my reverbs. *Full disclosure: I was given an NFR of this library specifically to write demos for it.*


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## youngpokie (Nov 10, 2020)

bfreepro said:


> ... there are sub-menus for almost everything and a lot of different options to experiment with....



Thanks. I can't quite believe there would be only 2 kinds of shorts for a solo string instrument these days. There must be a way - perhaps the sub-menus you mention allow to vary the attack type to simulate a martele? Please post what you find - many thanks!


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## bfreepro (Nov 10, 2020)

youngpokie said:


> Thanks. I can't quite believe there would be only 2 kinds of shorts for a solo string instrument these days. There must be a way - perhaps the sub-menus you mention allow to vary the attack type to fake a martele at least? Please post what you find - many thanks!


It seems to be lacking in round robins too. I feel like it's more directed at someone who doesn't want tons of articulation switching and mic positions and stuff. I have many libraries I prefer. I would like this more if I was a beginner or came from a more basic/starter orchestral library


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## youngpokie (Nov 10, 2020)

bfreepro said:


> It seems to be lacking in round robins too.



I am actively researching string quartets, but I wonder if I spoke too soon regarding KH short articulations.

Just found out that all Embertone's ISS instruments also have only Staccato and Pizzicato, although staccato can be time-stretched to fake a few others. The upcoming ISS updates will not expand the range of shorts.

Joshua Bell has more shorts, but it seems that now 8dio Quartet is a mile ahead of everyone else...


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## doctoremmet (Nov 10, 2020)

youngpokie said:


> I am actively researching string quartets, but I wonder if I spoke too soon regarding KH short articulations.
> 
> Just found out that all Embertone's ISS instruments also have only Staccato and Pizzicato, although staccato can be time-stretched to fake a few others. The upcoming ISS updates will not expand the range of shorts.
> 
> Joshua Bell has more shorts, but it seems that now 8dio Quartet is a mile ahead of everyone else...


Well... the champion of shorts is likely still Chris Hein. Check out those note heads


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## ism (Nov 10, 2020)

bfreepro said:


> Returning to discussion on the actual sound of the library, here's some demos



There's some nice sounds here. I have a sense there's are sweet spots to be found in this library. There's a nice scratchy tone that I do like, when the midi effect can be avoided. 

Thanks for sharing these.


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## doctoremmet (Nov 10, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> Well... the champion of shorts is likely still Chris Hein. Check out those note heads


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## Mike Greene (Nov 10, 2020)

The drama continues, even though many here would like to focus on the lbrary itself, so I've moved a number of posts to a dedicated Drama Zone thread. All drama and complaints from here onward should obviously go into that thread, not this one.

Some posts are still here as well (in other words, some posts are in both threads) in order to maintain context in this thread. This was a whole lot of posts to move, so if I made some mistakes, please let me know.

Thanks for your patience with this.

<EDIT> It seems the "Likes" did not travel well. Maybe not that big of a deal, but I do feel bad that (for instance) giwro's outstanding post didn't retain it's over 22 Likes.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 10, 2020)

youngpokie said:


> Thanks. I can't quite believe there would be only 2 kinds of shorts for a solo string instrument these days. There must be a way - perhaps the sub-menus you mention allow to vary the attack type to simulate a martele? Please post what you find - many thanks!



I think the answer to that is in the advertising:

_The main focus of the *Lyric Series String Quintet* is to provide musical, melody lines right out of the box. Further, it is our goal to shorten your workflow time as much as possible. It's not a "do everything" library, but we feel that the attention to being able to create melodic lines makes this product a very valuable asset._

So he did add some bread and butter shorts but not a full compliment.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 10, 2020)

Mike Greene said:


> The drama continues, even though many here would like to focus on the lbrary itself, so I've moved a number of posts to a dedicated Drama Zone thread. All drama and complaints from here onward should obviously go into that thread, not this one.
> 
> Some posts are still here as well (in other words, some posts are in both threads) in order to maintain context in this thread. This was a whole lot of posts to move, so if I made some mistakes, please let me know.
> 
> Thanks for your patience with this.



Attaboy, Mike, I like it.


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## ChristianM (Nov 10, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> Well... the champion of shorts is likely still Chris Hein. Check out those note heads


Yes but @Ashermusic dont like sound 
For me, it's ok, I like CH strings !


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## doctoremmet (Nov 10, 2020)

ChristianM said:


> Yes but @Ashermusic dont like sound
> For me, it's ok, I like CH strings !


I do too! I am on record as a fanboy of many a library hahaha (but most notably: XSample Woodwinds and Contemporary Solo Strings, Chris Hein Solo and Ensemble Strings and of course many 8dio libraries)


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## youngpokie (Nov 10, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> Well... the champion of shorts is likely still Chris Hein. Check out those note heads



Thank you for this. I can't get my headphones right now but it appears Chris Hein produces his 12 shorts by recording the same note with different lengths and dynamic levels. If true, this would mean the same attack type, just louder and progressively shorter duration for each of the 12. Is this right?

With 8dio I can clearly hear the difference between the actual (recorded) attacks of detache, martele and spiccato, so I'll have to listen closely to Chris Hein - perhaps he found a truly convincing way to simulate them and it works.

Maybe with KH, the same simulation can be achieved with those sub-menus, but as Ashermusic says his focus might have been on the cantabile side of things (he does talk a lot about vibrato).


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## doctoremmet (Nov 10, 2020)

youngpokie said:


> Thank you for this. I can't get my headphones right now but it appears Chris Hein produces his 12 shorts by recording the same note with different lengths and dynamic levels. If true, this would mean the same attack type, just louder and progressively shorter duration for each of the 12. Is this right?


My pleasure. Soundwise the note heads do offer quite some variety, but I can’t technically answer your question. Maybe @Chris Hein himself can chime in? All I can say is that the note heads concept is brilliant in my eyes.


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## bfreepro (Nov 10, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> I think the answer to that is in the advertising:
> 
> _The main focus of the *Lyric Series String Quintet* is to provide musical, melody lines right out of the box. Further, it is our goal to shorten your workflow time as much as possible. It's not a "do everything" library, but we feel that the attention to being able to create melodic lines makes this product a very valuable asset._
> 
> So he did add some bread and butter shorts but not a full compliment.



Yes you are 100% correct. I’ve been told I’ll be working on a variety of demos now. Kirk wants to show off the playability next with melodic lines. I liked the scratchy tone of the shorts and wanted to do something different from the current demos. Anyway, working on more and I’ll share them here and they will be on the official site too soon enough.


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## giwro (Nov 10, 2020)

Mike Greene said:


> The drama continues, even though many here would like to focus on the lbrary itself, so I've moved a number of posts to a dedicated Drama Zone thread. All drama and complaints from here onward should obviously go into that thread, not this one.
> 
> Some posts are still here as well (in other words, some posts are in both threads) in order to maintain context in this thread. This was a whole lot of posts to move, so if I made some mistakes, please let me know.
> 
> ...



That’s ok, Mike... I’m glad people seemed to resonate with what I said. I think it’s a good idea to separate out the posts.

Cheers,


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## bfreepro (Nov 11, 2020)

Testing legatos and portamento, the violin that starts off only uses one articulation/keyswitch, so those really fast short notes are all from the legato patch which can trigger accents at certain velocity levels. 

The two violins here, Guarnerius Violin and Maggini Violin, are my favorite instruments in the library, and the higher registers really sing.


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## Vardaro (Nov 12, 2020)

bfreepro said:


> Testing legatos and portamento, the violin that starts off only uses one articulation/keyswitch, so those really fast short notes are all from the legato patch which can trigger accents at certain velocity levels.
> 
> The two violins here, Guarnerius Violin and Maggini Violin, are my favorite instruments in the library, and the higher registers really sing.


Nice!

BTW can anyone say the instrument ranges?
And I should love to hear the viola more clearly than on the demo.


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## timbit2006 (Nov 14, 2020)

Did anyone else get 6-8 e-mails about this? I'm tired of thinking about it to be honest.


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## Gerbil (Nov 14, 2020)

bfreepro said:


> Testing legatos and portamento, the violin that starts off only uses one articulation/keyswitch, so those really fast short notes are all from the legato patch which can trigger accents at certain velocity levels.
> 
> The two violins here, Guarnerius Violin and Maggini Violin, are my favorite instruments in the library, and the higher registers really sing.


That highlights my problem with the library. It seems to be very flexible, which is to its credit. But it _sounds_ bad. Weedy, nasal, just unpleasant. I could never listen to this for pleasure. I have his ancient Romantic solo violin library and, while it's been over a decade and a half since I last used it, I swear it sounds better than this one.


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## Vardaro (Nov 16, 2020)

Someone provided this link:
<http://libraries.resampled.de/werner_adagiofugue.php>

For a classical string quartet, to my expert(!) ears, the VSL is the most realistic by far, then XSample, then Embertone. Miroslav is clunky, Spitfire and Ircam squishy and buzzy. I am refering to both timbre and phrasing/articulation. Of course I don't know what further improvements could be made to each example. And the amount of reverberation varies from example to example.

I should still like to hear the Lyric Series viola, which is what I play..


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## Sid Francis (Nov 16, 2020)

Thanks Vardaro. Indeed the VSL Solo strings sound very very realistic (or at least very nice .-) )


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## SergeD (Nov 16, 2020)

Vardaro said:


> Someone provided this link:
> <http://libraries.resampled.de/werner_adagiofugue.php>
> Miroslav is clunky



But suprisingly alive, that also matters. As for the KH strings, by it's tone, it would nicely fit in something like an "Unsolved mysteries" or some kind of dark serie. Each library has it's purpose I guess.


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## Vardaro (Nov 20, 2020)

I have Spotlight 4D, and even if most of the solo samples come from the old Spotlight strings, the solo timbres are improved, perhaps by EQing, though I still find them strange.

Comparing the manuals of 4D and the Lyric Series, they seem to have just the same control possibilities, even though the GUI layout has changed.
Edit: In fact the UACC articulation set (for CC32) in Lyric Series has much more detail.

(I have copied this post from the CS2 thread.)


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## Vardaro (Nov 21, 2020)

<>
This walkthrough starts and ends with the Amati viola.
No talking  More like a "scramblethrough" the various instruments and articulations.

As a retired violist, I find the sounds convincing. (I equalise my system to compensate for my 71yo ears, but I still stop above 10kHz).
I find the sounds better than the Spotlight 4D solos (for which solo demos are rare...)

I can understand why some are disappointed; the micing seems to me more distant than some libraries, but there is enough "grain" for mid-distance mock-ups.

Being a violinist himself, Kirk has added the possibilty of starting the vibrato right at the beginning of a note, like most classical players, avoiding the irritating vibrato "bulge" on each note.


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## Sid Francis (Nov 21, 2020)

Thank you Vardaro. But the playing in this video is so...horrible that I had to give up listening...


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## dvicontrol (Dec 3, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> I cannot prove it, but I am convinced that people who see his name on it expect it to sound bad because that’s been the narrative here for so long, and so their reaction is confirmation bias.
> 
> I have it. I think it sounds really good and my review will be up soon.



I'd be interested in reading your review. I looked through the thread but didn’t see a link, perhaps I missed it, so please pardon me if I did.

So, can you please post a link for your review? Thank you.


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## Ashermusic (Dec 3, 2020)

dvicontrol said:


> I'd be interested in reading your review. I looked through the thread but didn’t see a link, perhaps I missed it, so please pardon me if I did.
> 
> So, can you please post a link for your review? Thank you.











Synth and Software Review: Kirk Hunter’s Latest String Quintet Library


Lyric Series String Quintet, Kirk Hunter’s latest string library, is designed to do one thing very well – play musical melody lines. But it also covers the basics too. Lyric Series String Quintet consists of seven instruments and five multis: 3 violins, 1 viola, 2 Celli, 4 string quartets, and 1...




synthandsoftware.com


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## sostenuto (Sep 17, 2021)

Resurrecting due to current APD offering @ ~$80. Doesn't change earlier critiques, yet wondering if Guarneri Violin maybe worth this lower cost ?? 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## Jordan37 (Sep 18, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> Resurrecting due to current APD offering @ ~$80. Doesn't change earlier critiques, yet wondering if Guarneri Violin maybe worth this lower cost ?? 🤷🏻‍♂️


Yes, given the current sale, does anybody have any new thoughts or opinions based on the current price point? Now that people have had some time to work with this library, is it a worthwhile investment given the current price point? TIA


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## sostenuto (Sep 18, 2021)

Jordan37 said:


> Yes, given the current sale, does anybody have any new thoughts or opinions based on the current price point? Now that people have had some time to work with this library, is it a worthwhile investment given the current price point? TIA


Disappointed, not surprised, at no helpful Replies. While not rising above lower levels of orchestral chops, simply do not feel this library is without merit. Capable creator, player, and several other respected offerings. Not looking for supportive posts, yet trusting, desirous of help re-evaluating most positive segments of KH - Lyric Series String Quintet, re-visited in terms of current $80. promo opportunity. Please help, even with further critical impressions !!


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## Casiquire (Sep 18, 2021)

For all the criticism these libraries get, sometimes warranted, that example above doesn't sound bad to me


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## rrichard63 (Sep 18, 2021)

Kirk Hunter's libraries have fans as well as detractors. They are nothing if not controversial. I haven't evaluated Lyric Series String Quintet yet, but I certainly will before this sale is over.


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## Tren (Sep 27, 2021)

This thread was a fun read (all prior 8 pages) but this is not the place where I derive my decisions to buy anything from. It’s basically composer Reddit, with a heavy layer of reputational posturing. And bandwagoning. Fun AF to read through, though. 

It’s quite cheap and by now there are more demos and reviews available.

I’d ignore the complaints about Vibrato, as literally no solo strings library has cracked this nut. No matter what you buy, there will be clear negatives - whether the vibrato is baked in or emulated.

As for the demos, those are only going to be as good as the person doing the MIDI programming and mixing the stems. Even the best libraries can be made to sound bad. Hardly anyone will spend considerable amounts of time finessing a demo just to prove a library doesn’t sound bad to a room of people who are not open to being convinced regardless of the quality of the work presented.


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