# Bigger than life percussion is a crutch.....



## SvK (Jun 28, 2010)

Bigger than life percussion is a crutch.....

That's not to say that percussive cues aren't cool. However I will argue that huge percussion in film scores has "dumbed down" orchestration, and co
position tremendously...

Don't believe me? Well next time you need to write a big action cue, try writing an effective cue WITHOUT big drums. that's alot harder. And once it totally floats your boat, then add a few touches of bigger than life drums...

We wonder why film composers have drifted further and further down the credit list as of late. This is why. Anybody can bang on Taikos and Gran Cassas, that's easy...

But "Mountain Hunt" from First Blood.....that's music!


Thoughts?

SvK


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## Markus S (Jun 29, 2010)

Well, I think it has to do with "trends". To get a new and fresh sound, things have to change. The complex orchestral writing has been done to death at a certain period, so when people where looking for new and fresh sound identities for their film or other products, they went the, less melody, less orchestra, more rhythm, more sound design and sound scape road. If you write in complex atonal style, there is this 50-60ies feeling to it, you can't change it - you just see the film in black and white. If you write in John Williams style it has something of the 70-80ies and so on. So todays sound design, loop and percussion oriented style, will sound 2010 soon, and will be abandoned.

But it's actually pretty hard to get great percussion sound, in many cases percussion walls for film soundtracks, be it from Hans Zimmer, or from Tan Dun, are not often achieved by sample based compositions.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 29, 2010)

Good points from both of you, but I lean more to SvK's p.o.v.


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## stonzthro (Jun 29, 2010)

+1 on SvK's point - often we forget to write well under the percussion since it can mask so much!

Markus is absolutely correct in that getting a great percussion sound is NOT easy.


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## JohnG (Jun 29, 2010)

The order also matters -- which one is written first. 

I think Steve is right if the main compositional effort is percussion and then the strings and brass are layered on afterwards. The result can sound offhand / perfunctory if the percussion is full and doesn't leave enough room.

So to the extent Steve argues for starting with "other" and then adding percussion, I agree with him.

Of course, Markus is right that it's not easy to really nail the big percussion sound, especially to do it and keep some level of clarity. Certainly there is a monotony to the mediocre legions of "this cue is sort of like what I think I remember Zimmer and that trailer I saw last week and..."


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## Frederick Russ (Jun 29, 2010)

JohnG @ Tue Jun 29 said:


> The order also matters -- which one is written first.
> 
> I think Steve is right if the main compositional effort is percussion and then the strings and brass are layered on afterwards. The result can sound offhand / perfunctory if the percussion is full and doesn't leave enough room.
> 
> ...



I think that is a very good point John. The order matters because percussion can (and many times will) overtake the sonic landscape leaving very little room for anything else like strings brass etc. IMO I think its better to start without them and add them in as the piece progresses to allow time for the orchestration to develop adequately.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 29, 2010)

Mmm, respectfully, I am not sure I necessarily agree with you guys on the order being the determinant factor. I frequently put in a rhythm/perc bed to write on top of. BUT I also frequently change it later so it does not overwhelm the cue as a whole.

The truth is, the determinant factor is how well you know how to write for all of it and sadly, some people who are not good writers will try to rely on the percussion to cover up that fact. Even more sadly, they frequently get away with it.


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## Rob Elliott (Jun 29, 2010)

Hilarious as I was just the other day watching MI3 where at the end of the film Tom Cruise is running, jumping, etc. - while I love Giachinno I could not help but compare this to Tom Cruise running in Minority report and how much more visceral the Minority Report scene was in that film (underscored by JW - largely with only wimpy woodwinds). The Minority cue had a few timp and BD accents but not many - yet it just worked better. Say what you want about JW - He is a master. 

Sorry for the slight detour - and please no 'my dad can beat up your dad' posts - just my simple observation of score effectiveness and the minimal use of percussion.


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## José Herring (Jun 29, 2010)

I think it depends on what you have for resources. If I had any semblence of a live ensemble, I'd probably go in the more Jerry G. direction for the score. But if all I had were samples I'd definitly be leaning on the big drums for sure.  But taking a score like Total Recal as an example I wouldn't even attempt to get all that double tounging tbone stuff or any of the fast string and woodwind lines with just samples. 

But I do agree that for people that have the resources it's kind of a shame that they lean on the big drum sound for every action scene. It's distracting. Just watched a film that will remain unnamed for a big hollywood film that utilized nothing but synth and drums and a few orchestral samples scattered here and there and after about 10 minutes of that I was so distracted that it was tough to watch the movie. Don't know how the composer ever got a way with that crap. I actually thought the film had a lot going for it and I thought that the film would have been more effective if they weren't trying to beat you over the head with drums every few seconds.


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## Ed (Jun 29, 2010)

SvK @ Mon Jun 28 said:


> Don't believe me? Well next time you need to write a big action cue, try writing an effective cue WITHOUT big drums. that's alot harder. And once it totally floats your boat, then add a few touches of bigger than life drums...



I totally agree with you and, Im glad I can use that crutch  

HACK HACK AWAY BABY

Still there are composers that can do it and also use big percussion, for example TJ can easily do that.


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## Ed (Jun 29, 2010)

Rob Elliott @ Tue Jun 29 said:


> The Minority cue had a few timp and BD accents but not many - yet it just worked better. Say what you want about JW - He is a master.



The thing with Williams I think, is that he isn't just great at writing music he is really got such a great ear for what works with film. That is a skill in itself.


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## clarkcontrol (Jun 29, 2010)

Rob Elliott @ Tue Jun 29 said:


> Hilarious as I was just the other day watching MI3 where at the end of the film Tom Cruise is running, jumping, etc. - while I love Giachinno I could not help but compare this to Tom Cruise running in Minority report and how much more visceral the Minority Report scene was in that film (underscored by JW - largely with only wimpy woodwinds). The Minority cue had a few timp and BD accents but not many - yet it just worked better.



Holy moly this was my exact thought...... then I read your post. Minority is my favorite example of contemporary action film music. I love that he rarely uses percussion

One of JW's perc-filled cues is the speeder chase through Coruscant in Attack of the Clones...

Funny there's a lot of perc in there but not the huge larger than life beginning to end crushing taiko/casa stuff. He does more in War o the Worlds but still keeps it way way under of what is now typical in the standard (sigh) hollywood fare.

Clark


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## Ashermusic (Jun 29, 2010)

The thing with Williams I think, is that he isn't just great at writing music he is really got such a great ear for what works with film. That is a skill in itself.[/quote]

Yes, and the most important skill for a film composer.


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## Ed (Jun 29, 2010)

There is a point that big drums sound much better with samples, so it can help cover up crappier sounding orchestral samples. 

So some of it is samples fault.


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## clarkcontrol (Jun 30, 2010)

Absolutely.

The nature of the beast. Been that way since the early Zimmer days

And this makes me wonder (somewhat hopefully)

Will we see this trend in the other direction now that samples and the associated technology are getting better...

Clark


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## Narval (Jun 30, 2010)

C M Dess @ Tue Jun 29 said:


> Directors are ruining score music


Yeah, all they care about is their stupid films. Selfish bastards! :evil:


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## Narval (Jun 30, 2010)

Right, in their lust for money directors are sacrificing and ruining everything: music, acting, cinematography, storytelling, and film making altogether.

If you care for any of the above stay away from directors and their money. Money are evil. Art is immortal.

~o)


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## Narval (Jul 1, 2010)

And how much are they worth to you on a good day?


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## lux (Jul 1, 2010)

what? no Alex Pfeffer "its a fuckin style guys" comments yet?


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## Narval (Jul 1, 2010)

C M Dess @ Thu Jul 01 said:


> Narval @ Thu Jul 01 said:
> 
> 
> > And how much are they worth to you on a good day?
> ...


Thats 50 cents. :D


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## dcardillo (Jul 1, 2010)

ahh, the old battle between purists and philistines.


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## mattmurray8 (Jul 8, 2010)

call me crazy but I love both.

The sweet, perfection of some of John Williams cues, to John Powell's loop-inspired Bourne masterpiece.

As composers, our goal is to create music that emotionally connects people to those damn pictures - using whatever resource we have available. For most of us, its the latest and greatest thing that we've been using. If a simple garageband loop inspires me for a cue/helps me along, I'm going to use it.. (and most of us have on a deadline)

As far as a crutch.. I think it can definitely be overused. But look at the production of the films these days. BIG EXPLOSIVE FAST ACTION PACKED. This requires us to emulate that sort of feeling as well. Those earthquake drums, and blockbuster horns most of the time FIT the bill. I think the way films are made now really affect the perceived idea on how to match that emotion with music. Plus, audiences love it. In fact, I wouldn't say it's a stretch to compare a lot of the recent percussive sounds to some pop/hip hop elements that you can hear on the radio. (check out the trailer for inception)

Lets prove that it isn't a crutch!! Viva la vida John Williams!


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