# 88 Key Midi Controller with Piano-like keys



## ranaprathap

Hello,

I am looking for a relatively small and portable light weight 88 keys MIDI controller with a piano like hammer action keys. Any suggestions?

I have got an offer for a used M-audio keystation pro 88 but its not small or portable or lightweight. It has plenty of faders though. 

I could just get an electric piano but I was also hoping to get some decent faders along with it. 

Any help is greatly appreciated.


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## EvilDragon

For portable and lightweight the best is probably Casio PX-5S. 12 kg (in letters. TWELVE) for triple-sensor 88-key action, 6 sliders and 4 knobs.

For BEST possible action (but a bit bulkier, yet still manageable), definitely Roland RD-2000. 21 kg, but this is bar none the best action I've ever played so far.


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## ranaprathap

EvilDragon said:


> For portable and lightweight the best is probably Casio PX-5S. 12 kg (in letters. TWELVE) for triple-sensor 88-key action, 6 sliders and 4 knobs.
> 
> For BEST possible action (but a bit bulkier, yet still manageable), definitely Roland RD-2000. 21 kg, but this is bar none the best action I've ever played so far.



They all look promising. They are stage pianos and not simple MIDI controllers. So I will be paying for a sound engine that I won't be using, as my primary use is as a MIDI controller. Thanks for the suggestions.


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## EvilDragon

Stage pianos is where most of improvements in piano action is at.  If that's what you really need, then you shouldn't mind paying extra. At least IMHO. I would consider it a "premium action with additional sounds that sometimes might come in handy". Especially in case of RD-2000.


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## Maximvs

I just had a chance the other day to play the Dexibell Vivo S7 (http://www.dexibell.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=70#4). I don't remember the last time I was so exited when playing a new stage piano and I already own a Kawai MP8 which is very heavy (ca. 35kg). This stage piano action with its on board piano and many other sounds is absolutely excellent.... It is not sold just as a stage piano but also as a controller due to its many capabilities but there are not programmable faders and knobs apart to programmable wheels... I am seriously considering it for my studio and for remote work. This is not exactly a lightweight keyboard but I tried lifting it and compare to some other stage piano on the market is very portable. My two cents and I am not in any way associated with Dexibell, this is a comment purely from someone who tested it and loved it so much Cheers, Max


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## ranaprathap

Massimo said:


> I just had a chance the other day to play the Dexibell Vivo S7 (http://www.dexibell.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=70#4). I don't remember the last time I was so exited when playing a new stage piano and I already own a Kawai MP8 which is very heavy (ca. 35kg). This stage piano action with its on board piano and many other sounds is absolutely excellent.... It is not sold just as a stage piano but also as a controller due to its many capabilities but there are not programmable faders and knobs apart to programmable wheels... I am seriously considering it for my studio and for remote work. This is not exactly a lightweight keyboard but I tried lifting it and compare to some other stage piano on the market is very portable. My two cents and I am not in any way associated with Dexibell, this is a comment purely from someone who tested it and loved it so much Cheers, Max



Thanks for the suggestion, but I don't think its available where I live. And the lack of faders and rotors is a let down for me.


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## stan-k

What about Akai MPK88?

http://www.akaipro.com/product/mpk88


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## EvilDragon

Sluggish keys, from my experience. :/


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## stan-k

EvilDragon said:


> Sluggish keys, from my experience. :/



But look at all the faders!


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## EvilDragon

Faders and knobs should be secondary to the quality of the keyboard action, IMHO.


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## tack

Best action has to be the Kawai VPC-1 but at 30kg it's not as portable as it might be. And if you want faders and encoders you'd need a separate controller


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## EvilDragon

VPC-1 is darn good, also a bit slow to rebound, but RD-2000 is on a whole new level. Smooth, consistent, fast rebound (as it would on a premium grand piano)... I urge everyone who can to just go out and try one.


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## ranaprathap

Anyone has any experience with Arturia Keylab 88 or Roland A88?


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## n9n9n9

Arturia feels squishy and weird to me. The Roland feels nice.

If I were you I would check out the Native Instruments Komplete control 88. The keyboard is very good and it has a well designed and appealing control system. Seems like everyone is using them on stage these days too: I've seen Max Richter, Johan Johansson and Olafur Arnalds using them in the last few months. This is what I would buy if I were in the market right now. $999.

Although, that said, I love what I do use as my master keyboard maybe more than the NI: A Casio PX160. It's an older model that I got for $445 a couple years ago. The built in sounds are not bad but I never use them. It doesn't have pitch bend or mod wheel, which I don't love, either, but the feel of this keyboard really works for me. Very solid, mechanical weight that feels different between the low and high notes. I find myself wishing for this keyboard when I am using a real piano. I make up for the lack of a mod wheel by using my BCF-2000 motorized fader box like 8 mod wheels and the touch strip on my Ableton Push as a pitch bend, but there are other solutions. I will say that having your mod and pitch at the left end of an 88 key keyboard is not really ideal.


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## EvilDragon

PX-5S is PX-160 on steroids, overall improvement in every possible regard (and it has pitch+mod ).


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## chimuelo

Ugliest damn controller ever made.
But Orca Whales were well represented.
The PX-3S is what I use as a spare.

PX-5S is actually a big improvement in internal sounds and MIDI Control.
The action is really a pleasure to use.
The size in height and depth is a huge benefit for crowded desktop space too.
Sound wise it's a hardware version of Keyscape with hotter outputs.

Price, nothing else compares as it is perfectly situated in its own market.
Great support over at Keyboard Corner.


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## dversion

ranaprathap said:


> Anyone has any experience with Arturia Keylab 88 or Roland A88?


I switched to the A88 for touring and I'll be buying one for my studio rig. You get the famous Roland Keybed without the weight. 

There are a few controllers on it but they kept it spartan on purpose.


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## ranaprathap

n9n9n9 said:


> Arturia feels squishy and weird to me. The Roland feels nice.
> 
> If I were you I would check out the Native Instruments Komplete control 88. The keyboard is very good and it has a well designed and appealing control system. Seems like everyone is using them on stage these days too: I've seen Max Richter, Johan Johansson and Olafur Arnalds using them in the last few months. This is what I would buy if I were in the market right now. $999.
> 
> Although, that said, I love what I do use as my master keyboard maybe more than the NI: A Casio PX160. It's an older model that I got for $445 a couple years ago. The built in sounds are not bad but I never use them. It doesn't have pitch bend or mod wheel, which I don't love, either, but the feel of this keyboard really works for me. Very solid, mechanical weight that feels different between the low and high notes. I find myself wishing for this keyboard when I am using a real piano. I make up for the lack of a mod wheel by using my BCF-2000 motorized fader box like 8 mod wheels and the touch strip on my Ableton Push as a pitch bend, but there are other solutions. I will say that having your mod and pitch at the left end of an 88 key keyboard is not really ideal.



The komplete kontrol S88 is not easily available here, and the one place that sells it is way over prized because of all the import duties, ending up at 2000 USD converted. 

The Px-160 is available though, but getting that means I will have to get a controller separately for faders, which means one more instrument on the desk and to carry around.


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## EvilDragon

If PX-160 is available, PX-5S should be as well. Go with that one instead if possible.


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## ranaprathap

chimuelo said:


> Ugliest damn controller ever made.
> But Orca Whales were well represented.
> The PX-3S is what I use as a spare.
> 
> PX-5S is actually a big improvement in internal sounds and MIDI Control.
> The action is really a pleasure to use.
> The size in height and depth is a huge benefit for crowded desktop space too.
> Sound wise it's a hardware version of Keyscape with hotter outputs.
> 
> Price, nothing else compares as it is perfectly situated in its own market.
> Great support over at Keyboard Corner.





EvilDragon said:


> If PX-160 is available, PX-5S should be as well. Go with that one instead if possible.



Now I am really considering the PX-5S but its not available in amazon or any of the other places. The one place that sells it is overprized as well - at 2000 USD converted.


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## EvilDragon

Damn, where are you :D


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## ranaprathap

EvilDragon said:


> Damn, where are you :D


This is a list of reasonably priced stuff available from a reputed seller. So basically I am limited to these. 
https://www.bajaao.com/collections/digital-pianos
https://www.bajaao.com/collections/midi-keyboards


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## EvilDragon

In that case, if you can, go with PX-560, since it's the latest in the Privia line, better than PX-160, and I think the same keybed from PX-5S. Shame it has no controllers, though.


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## Maximvs

ranaprathap said:


> This is a list of reasonably priced stuff available from a reputed seller. So basically I am limited to these.
> https://www.bajaao.com/collections/digital-pianos
> https://www.bajaao.com/collections/midi-keyboards


Have you looked at the Nektar LX88+? Not a hammer action keybed but not bad at all. I checked with the Nektar manufacture and I have been told that the keybed has been improved compare to the old LX88... with this controller you have all the faders, knobs, pads, transport controls that you need...

Cheers, Max


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## Jeremy Spencer

Massimo said:


> Have you looked at the Nektar LX88+? Not a hammer action keybed but not bad at all. I checked with the Nektar manufacture and I have been told that the keybed has been improved compare to the old LX88... with this controller you have all the faders, knobs, pads, transport controls that you need...
> 
> Cheers, Max



I've had the LX88+ for a few weeks now, it is excellent (especially for the price). Semi-weighted, but smooth and quiet, and only weighs 18lbs. All of the controllers integrate seamlessly with Logic Pro and Cubase 8/9. I use the transport controls all the time, a huge convenience.


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## ranaprathap

EvilDragon said:


> In that case, if you can, go with PX-560, since it's the latest in the Privia line, better than PX-160, and I think the same keybed from PX-5S. Shame it has no controllers, though.


So I should get a PX-560, and then get a separate controller for the faders and all. Add the extra weight and cost and lack of portability of having to carry two things around. 
Or I could just get an Impact LX88+ for much cheap, light weight and much more portability with insane DAW integration. 
Hmm. Makes me think how much I am ready to sacrifice for a good piano action.


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## EvilDragon

Impact LX88+ definitely doesn't have triple sensor action, so you're already losing something there, IMHO... It's weird how they have that stuff but not the PX-5S!


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## Jeremy Spencer

EvilDragon said:


> Impact LX88+ definitely doesn't have triple sensor action, so you're already losing something there, IMHO... It's weird how they have that stuff but not the PX-5S!



Pardon my ignorance, but what is "triple sensor action"?


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## EvilDragon




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## n9n9n9

http://www.rajmusical.com/index.php/casio-px-160-bk-digital-piano.html

about $575 us which is a reasonable price. in New Delhi. just in case that helps.


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## ranaprathap

n9n9n9 said:


> http://www.rajmusical.com/index.php/casio-px-160-bk-digital-piano.html
> 
> about $575 us which is a reasonable price. in New Delhi. just in case that helps.



Thanks for the link. The PX-160 and PX-560 are both available in India. I am looking for an opportunity to try out the keys before making a decision.


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## pranitkhedekar

Studio Equipment and instruments are too expensive in India because of import duties and taxes.
@ranaprathap Where are you from exactly? if you're from Mumbai then you can easily find Casio PX5S in Shalu Music (Mumbai). dont order online without trying.


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## pranitkhedekar

@EvilDragon Did you tried those Studiologic controllers (SL Grand & Studio)?


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## ranaprathap

pranitkhedekar said:


> dont order online without trying.


That's the idea. I am not from Mumbai, I am from Bhopal. From the looks of things a visit to Mumbai is inevitable. Thanks for the recommendation.


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## EvilDragon

pranitkhedekar said:


> @EvilDragon Did you tried those Studiologic controllers (SL Grand & Studio)?



Yep. RD2000 beats them both.


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## hyperscientist

Don't disregard VPC1. It is half the price of RD2000 and top quality is definitely there. Depending on the feel of the instrument you are looking for you may even be more happy with it than with RD2000. VPC1 is the most pure looking, grand-piano feeling MIDI controller ever created. Guests to my place compliment its beauty almost every time! You won't get that with RD2000  Mind though that keys are heavy - I am willing to bet that significantly more than RD2000 - some may like it, but for many it might be too much (your muscles adjust after few months if you play enough). I am not arguing that RD2000 is lesser in any way (other then looks) - I am 100% certain it is excellent and Roland was always my absolute favourite when it comes to feel! If Roland created a pure MIDI controller with Kiyola look and feel - I would most likely sell VPC and buy it, but RD2000 is just too much features I wouldn't use and it doesn't look as good  Now decide for yourself!

_Dreaming… If only Roland would decide to update its A-800 Pro… I would buy 61 keys and together with VPC1 I believe I would have the best possible combo._


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## EvilDragon

Yep, don't disregard VPC1, but it's simply a more sluggish action than RD2000, which is smooth, lightning-fast responsive, more to how a proper grand piano should be. Which is kind of a stumper for me: Kawai for sure knows how to make pianos, and they messed it up a bit with VPC1, as it's nothing like their grand piano action, even on their cheapest models, really.

BTW, RD2000 looks damn sexy IMHO. Those LEDs for slider position and around knobs is a god-send, plus two modwheels and a joystick, definitely much better suited to controlling all sorts of virtual instruments and not just the piano (which is what VPC1 really is - piano controller and nothing more... well - I *need more!*).


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## sostenuto

EvilDragon said:


> Yep, don't disregard VPC1, but it's simply a more sluggish action than RD2000, which is smooth, lightning-fast responsive, more to how a proper grand piano should be. Which is kind of a stumper for me: Kawai for sure knows how to make pianos, and they messed it up a bit with VPC1, as it's nothing like their grand piano action, even on their cheapest models, really.
> 
> BTW, RD2000 looks damn sexy IMHO. Those LEDs for slider position and around knobs is a god-send, plus two modwheels and a joystick, definitely much better suited to controlling all sorts of virtual instruments and not just the piano (which is what VPC1 really is - piano controller and nothing more... well - I *need more!*).



Yeah .. looks very good indeed!
Big $$ jump from A-88 but lots more capability to match. Hope touch/feel is same as A-88 as Spectrasonics seemed to feature it throughout Keyscape videos ... (right ??). Large list of top performers, $$ not an issue, and MUST make them sound/look great !!


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## EvilDragon

It is better than A-88 in every regard.


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## sostenuto

EvilDragon said:


> It is better than A-88 in every regard.



No worries as long-time KR-577 User. Trusting its 'better' by usd 1,500.  
Maybe drive (2 hrs) to Las Vegas and probably get some hands-on tips as well ....


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## Maximvs

At the end of the day the best thing is to put your hand on a keyboard, digital piano, etc... The keyboard feel is very subjective. I recently tested a Yamaha CP4 and really loved it, then tested the new Dexibell Vivo S7 and also liked it a lot... Now I am thinking that buying a digital stage piano just to use it as a master keyboard, like I mostly intend to do, is probably too much. I was wondering if anyone has any feedback on the Arturia Keylab 88, which has all the controllers I need plus apparently a pretty good hammer action keyboard and the overall weight is around 13 kg.

Thanks for any comments, Max


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## Selfinflicted

The feel is a subjective thing, but I own the Keylab88 and a nice roland digital piano (FP-7), Akai MPK-88, studio logic vmk188 and a bunch of other stuff. The Keylab88 is what I use most now. It isn't THAT different from the FP-7 - a little quicker to bounce back and maybe a touch lighter. Neither are a real piano, but they're both good hammer action. But, if you'll be programming other stuff in addition to playing piano on this controller, I would much prefer the Keylab88 to a digital piano, in terms of the action (obviously, the controllers... but, the action too). It's a little less mushy than a digital piano, so I find it better from programming orchestral stuff as well as synths compared to a digital piano. Never had any issues with playing piano on it


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## Vastman

After a long period of reflection I've gone with a 2 88 keyboards system... the NI S88, which has already been discussed all over the place AND the new Nektar Impact LX88+. The LX+ controller software/hardware system is PHENOMENAL (just watch some vids and you'll b blown away) and gives me the synth action I want, complementing the S88 perfectly

Best of all worlds, imo...been holding out for a couple years now, following EVERY discssion/thread I could find on 88's, waiting foe someone to get it right...for "me"!... was making due with keystation pro 88 and an lx76. Finally decided my dreams were impossible to achieve with one keyboard & i would grow old waiting. 

I'm eagerly awaiting the arrival of a huge Sweetwater purchase tomorrow to begin setting up my new home studio in the panhandle...


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## mverta

What I personally wouldn't give for an 88-key semi-weighted with decent action, aftertouch and some faders/knobs. I hate playing non-keyboard-based VST's on weighted action.


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## byzantium

Yep exactly, big need out there I think, an 88-key high-quality semi-weighted controller, ergonomic, slim, consistent key action, ideally flat top, fits in a slide-out drawer. Nobody doin' it as far as I know.


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## Farkle

byzantium said:


> Yep exactly, big need out there I think, an 88-key high-quality semi-weighted controller, ergonomic, slim, consistent key action, ideally flat top, fits in a slide-out drawer. Nobody doin' it as far as I know.



Isn't the LX 88 Nektar supposed to fit that bill? I thought that was the hook of it, semi weighted action, loaded with controllers/faders, etc. 

I'm torn between that and the Arturia 88 Key controller. As a piano player, I love having real piano feel on a controller. But, I agree with Mike, I don't like playing non-keyboard Sample libs on a weighted keyboard.

My current semi weighted controller (M audio Prokeys 88sx) is giving up the ghost, so a purchase might be sooner rather than later. 

Mike


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## byzantium

Yeah Mike, I looked at the LX88 and almost bought it, and it has unbelievable functionality for such a low price, but for me I just couldn't get over the fact that the black keys are not the same as the white - slightly harder to press and exhibit different sensitivity / velocity response (and not adjustable/fixable in software/firmware as of yet, in the fairly recent LX88+ update). If it wasn't for that, I would have gotten it. But others don't mind / can get over it, so it may be a personal thing.

I think I'm coming to the conclusion that I need a weighted controller AND a synth action one (for drums, strings etc etc)


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## CT

Vastman said:


> After a long period of reflection I've gone with a 2 88 keyboards system... the NI S88, which has already been discussed all over the place AND the new Nektar Impact LX88+. The LX+ controller software/hardware system is PHENOMENAL (just watch some vids and you'll b blown away) and gives me the synth action I want, complementing the S88 perfectly
> 
> Best of all worlds, imo...been holding out for a couple years now, following EVERY discssion/thread I could find on 88's, waiting foe someone to get it right...for "me"!... was making due with keystation pro 88 and an lx76. Finally decided my dreams were impossible to achieve with one keyboard & i would grow old waiting.
> 
> I'm eagerly awaiting the arrival of a huge Sweetwater purchase tomorrow to begin setting up my new home studio in the panhandle...



I'd love to hear your first impressions of the Nektar. I'm quite ready to move on from an M-Audio Keystation with two dead keys right in the middle range, and overall crummy and noisy(!) action, and I'd prefer to do so with as reasonable a price tag as possible.


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## Jan16

Last Monday I went to an nearby music store to check out some of the keybeds, and I have to say that when it comes to a semi-weighted synth action the Nektar LX88+ is really good, responsive and quiet.

In the category of hammer-based keybeds the new Roland RD2000 really shines; it has a very good action indeed, solid, not too heavy but not too light either, very responsive, and not noisy.
Beneath the RD2000 the RD300 was placed, a different type of action, more sluggish, heavier and louder, not something I would enjoy.
Unfortunately there weren't any Kawais in the store which would allow me to compare the Grand Feel to the RD2000.
I really liked the RD2000 so much that I'm thinking of getting one.

I also had a chance to try out the Native Instruments S88 for the first time, and I cannot say it was a positive experience.
The keys felt a bit heavy and sluggish, as if it had loose hammers underneath the keys, it did not feel like any acoustic grand I'm accustomed to, and I would not call it a quiet action.
Contrary to some of the positive reviews I have read here I strongly feel NI missed the boat with this one, I would never buy one because of the feel and noise of the keybed.
It shows that it cannot be stressed enough how important it is to try out the different actions yourself before buying anything, or else you may end up with a major disappointment.


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## ranaprathap

As an update, I got a very good offer on a barely used Novation Sl mkii 61. I tried it out and I really liked the Fatar semi weighted keys. So I bought it for the time being. I decided to wait until I can afford something like RD2000 to move to 88 key controllers. 

Thanks for all the suggestions and help, everyone.


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## tack

Jan16 said:


> The keys felt a bit heavy and sluggish, as if it had loose hammers underneath the keys, it did not feel like any acoustic grand I'm accustomed to, and I would not call it a quiet action.


Sluggish is exactly the word I used to describe the S88 as well. I don't think it's fair to penalize it for not feeling like an acoustic grand, because it's not really supposed to. The keys aren't weighted after all, so it's under no pretense that it's trying to give an acoustic piano experience. In fact I personally wouldn't _want_ my primary MIDI controller to feel like a real piano -- I have something else for that. I like it as a middle-of-the-road controller, but by the same token I could see someone disliking it on those very grounds.

Noisy keybed, yes. I actually returned my first S88 based on some obnoxious clicking in the corner of the chassis when I struck a key even at pianissimo. I find it tolerable now, but it's not as quiet as it might be.


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## Ashermusic

I just bought a Dexibell Vivo S7 stage piano and it has a really nice feel.


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## Selfinflicted

I have a Nektar Impact LX88 for an assistant to use. I really don't like it. For lighter action, I've never gotten over the Roland A-70's disappearance and lack of replacement. That thing had the best non-weighted action ever. Most non-weight or semi-weighted actions just feel like toys to me today - even for synth programming.


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## Vastman

miket said:


> I'd love to hear your first impressions of the Nektar. I'm quite ready to move on from an M-Audio Keystation with two dead keys right in the middle range, and overall crummy and noisy(!) action, and I'd prefer to do so with as reasonable a price tag as possible.


Miket... I'd urge you to watch the vids... You can do so many things, setup wise, that it's amazing they've packed such utility into this package. Mine comes today but haven't begun to set up my studio yet as I'm now doing full time caregiver work to my 90 year old mom who is recovering from long term neglect... So it'll b awhile.

I have used their prior impact series and keyboard is far superior to the Keystation which I gave away. The new plus series is even better but it's deep setup controller capabilities and templates is what's stunning.

It's NOT a weighted keyboard, which is a plus to me. With Sweetwater you have a no risk purchase... But I'm quite sure you'll love it. Id list vid links but I'm mobile at the moment


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## CT

No problem, I've seen most of the videos. Thanks for the response!


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## mverta

Went and tried an LX88 last night. Hated it. Absolutely nobody makes a great feeling, synth-style, semi-weight 88 with great controller options. Time to make one, I guess.


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## CT

Hey Mike, in at least one of your videos, I saw you using a Keystation. Are you still on that, and would you say the Nektar didn't even improve on that action? All I need most of the time is a breath controller and modwheel, so all the controller functionality from the Nektar line means little to me; it's all about the feeling of the keys. Going to try one for myself eventually but still interested in how you think they compare. It's really odd, this conspicuous gap in the market....


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## synergy543

mverta said:


> Absolutely nobody makes a great feeling, synth-style, semi-weight 88 with great controller options. Time to make one, I guess.


Yes true, although the OP is asking about one with "Piano-like keys". I'm reasonably happy with my S90ES, although its repeat is a bit sluggish (but faster than me). I've heard good things about the Kawai too but haven't tried them. Also, I have a friend who bought the Arturia and loves it.


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## Vastman

mverta said:


> What I personally wouldn't give for an 88-key semi-weighted with decent action, aftertouch and some faders/knobs. I hate playing non-keyboard-based VST's on weighted action.


Many of us have been screeching about this for years... to no avail. I didn't mean to imply the LX+ was "ideal", and it doesn't have aftertouch either but it is far superior to the keystation and does have an intelligent set of controllers/configurations at a great price. Nothing else like it at this price point.

We're kinda derailing the thread here so I'll just close noting that I've grumbled and stayed with the keystation and keystation pro for many years and finally said "enough of this crap" and ordered the S88/LX+88 combo as it seems our desires for a high quality semi 88 falls on deaf ears.

Short sighted companies have totally misread the huge market for a fully tricked out semi weighted 88... and this has been a problem since day one of midi...Me, Guy, and many others have been saying "time to make one" forever...

sorry for the derail.


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## Farkle

mverta said:


> Went and tried an LX88 last night. Hated it. Absolutely nobody makes a great feeling, synth-style, semi-weight 88 with great controller options. Time to make one, I guess.



Mike, my friend's studio just picked up an old D50. I started playing with it, and I forgot how much I loved those old Roland Synth keys. Fast action, but some density/heaviness to the keys. Felt very musical and engaging to the fingers.

Is that the type of action you're missing? Cause, man, if Roland would make that action again, with a synth with separate pitch bend and mod wheel, I'd be all over that.

Mike


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## mverta

Yes I use a crappy Keystation at home because for basic VST input I can use just about anything. But I need an expressive live rig. I broke out my old Roland JV-1000 just for the action, but it's in need of repairs. Still a huge hole in the market here.


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## byzantium

Yep, hard to find something nice that's not fully weighted. Given the comments about the old Rolands, that reminds me I have an old Roland A-30 buried in a corner somewhere, I must dig it out and see does it still work! (It only has a midi out but I guess I could get a midi splitter/merger thingy).
Sorry for the further derail - back to the weighted / piano-like topic.


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## Vastman

fwiw, since the weighted issue seems dormant at the moment, unpacked and mucked around for several hours with the LX88+... Keyboard is far superior to their prior LX88... heavier grade keys, smoother action, and I was very pleased with the heaftier build. Solid product. As a controller, it is way more advanced than the prior LX series and I barely scratched the surface...Folks referring to trying an "LX88", which was much more like the cheesy keystation with cheap plastic keys (but still way better) should give the + series a try. Much more solid and responsive, midi wise, although the original wasn't that bad... I can't think of another available option that comes close...It really is a great product in the price range. Sucks no aftertouch but the S88 does so I'm ok with that.

Still waiting for my S88... gonna love the combo; no regrets!


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## byzantium

This seems strange vastman, unless unknown to me there has been an even newer "LX++" release in 2017 - see support response below below that I received from Nektar last October regarding the differences between the LX and the LX+ (as it wasn't at all clear from the product information):

-----Original Message-----
From: Nikki Weinberg
Sent: 2016/10/11
Subject: LX88+ Velocity response, difference from LX88


Hello Paul,

Thank you for contacting Nektar's online customer support.

The only major differences between the LX and the LX+ models are as follows:


There are different color LED lights around the pads

There are added functions below the display buttons
We added 'Clip' and 'Scene' buttons that launch in Bitwig 

We have added another user assignable page of controls in instrument mode
In regards to the keys, the are the same keybed in both models. Also the velocity sensitivity is the same on both models.

If you have any other questions, let me know.

All the best,

Nikki Weinberg


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

I have tried the previous LX model, and the LX88+ has a different keybed (perhaps it was upgraded in 2017?). The black keys on the previous model were "stickier" as well.

I've had the LX88+ for over a month now and agree, it is a great controller, especially for the price. I just wish the display was more modern like on the P1; but that's okay considering the cost.


----------



## byzantium

Interesting. I didn't buy the Impact because of those 'sticky' black keys and because Nektar said the keybed is the same in the + version. I also read a review on-line that said the drum pads were improved in the + version, but this wasn't mentioned by Nektar support. I've emailed them again and we'll see what they say....


----------



## byzantium

Nektar Support replied back to me today to say that the keybed has been unchanged in the LX88 since its launch. They did say however that the LX+ does have some foam behind the springs to 'reduce noise' and to 'provide a more even response to the keys'.


----------



## mverta

Yeah, so I decided to fix this, 'cause I need to and I can. 

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/custom-88-semi-weighted-controller-interested.62733/


----------



## T.j.

Hi,

Question for the keyboard experts among us (@EvilDragon) ;
In the 1000,- range, is there anything you would recommend over (or on par with) the PX-5S?
Unfortunately the Rd2000 is well out of my price range

I'm looking for a couple of things:
fast/expressive response
Good dynamics
triple sensor (seems the logical way to go)
Quiet: playing it shouldn't make more noise than what's coming from the speakers.
and if possible i'd like a few buttons and faders to control my daws most basic functions (play/rec etc.)

Not necessary:
pads, screens, blinking lights and other nonsense
Tons of on-board sounds 
lightweight / portability

I'm looking to use it as a piano (practice/composing) mostly, i'll keep my non weighted keyboard for vst / synth.
There are several music shops in town so whatever you recommend, i'm sure i can find a way to try..

Thanks!


----------



## EvilDragon

Around $1k, no, I would say PX-5S has nailed it, really... It's a good action, not the best, but for the price, form factor and especially *weight*, it's an amazing achievement.


----------



## rickdeckard

Studiologic SL88 GRAND


----------



## EvilDragon

^^^ Retarded joysticks instead of pitch/mod wheels, lack of any other sliders :/ PX-5S at least has 6 assignable sliders. Very useful.


----------



## T.j.

Very clear, thanks!


rickdeckard said:


> Studiologic SL88 GRAND



I like the clean look but i'd like to be able to at least hit record/play/stop instantly when needed.
I suppose i could put my pc keyboard or an ipad on the chassis, but that's one more thing to remember and will get annoying quickly if you switch between piano and workstation constantly

Thanks for the answers so far!

p.s. apologies to the op for hijacking you thread, seemed like the right place instead of opening another one with the same topic


----------



## rickdeckard

EvilDragon said:


> ^^^ Retarded joysticks instead of pitch/mod wheels, lack of any other sliders :/ PX-5S at least has 6 assignable sliders. Very useful.


but the keybed is immensely superior than that of the PX-5S, they are not even comparable...and the SL is a lot cheaper, with 50$ you can add a korg nanokontrol with sliders and daw controls etc etc


----------



## Andreas Moisa

This might be interesting too: http://www.soundonsound.com/news/m-audio-release-88-key-hammer-action-midi-controller


----------



## EvilDragon

rickdeckard said:


> but the keybed is immensely superior than that of the PX-5S, they are not even comparable...and the SL is a lot cheaper, with 50$ you can add a korg nanokontrol with sliders and daw controls etc etc



I wouldn't say immensely superior, TP40(WOOD) has its issues (mainly inconsistencies in velocity response and feel on black keys vs white keys, and no this cannot be fully remedied with their per-key editing unfortunately), and Frankensteining the whole rig just to get a few more sliders (and STILL not have a proper pitch wheel because, my god those joysticks really ARE retarded, they're nothing like, say, Korg's great joysticks) doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

SL a lot cheaper? 50 bucks/Euros is not "a lot cheaper". They're about the same price. SL Grand is 845€ at Thomann, PX-5S is 879€. Wow, a huge difference, and you get lots of sounds with PX-5S too.


----------



## T.j.

Andreas Moisa said:


> This might be interesting too: http://www.soundonsound.com/news/m-audio-release-88-key-hammer-action-midi-controller



Thanks for the tip but I'd stay away from m-audio controllers around 400,- as that's what i currently have and it's a soul-destroying mess.

All these keyboards are making me dizzy; so many to choose from, lot's functions that don't mean anything to me (and/or I don't need)..
This must be how non-guitarists feel like walking into a music store


----------



## jps0611

I've had the SL88 Grand for about a year now. I'm surprised how little it comes up on this forum. Fantastic keybed with great build quality and non of the gimmicky adds on.

Only downside I've had is that I tend to keep my controller 'on' all the time. This has led to some degradation in the LCD screen. But given that I never used it in the first place...no harm no foul.





hodshonf said:


> great thread.
> 
> i am about to pull the trigger on a Studiologic SL88 Grand.
> 
> i don't have the luxury of trying one.
> 
> more than ANY other issue for me with the SL88 Grand is quality control. i've read some bad comments about key consistency, failed keys, etc...
> 
> i am more interested in feel than MIDI control.
> 
> i can get used to anything - i just need to bite the bullet and get to work.
> 
> for the $$$, seems like a great option.
> 
> real world input about the quality of the SL88 Grand?
> 
> thanks.


----------



## T.j.

hodshonf said:


> that
> 
> was
> 
> THE most convincing description of a piece of gear i have ever read.
> 
> i was looking at the Hammer 88 for a couple of seconds before i read that.
> 
> still chuckling.



lol, 

it actually wasn't the hammer i was talking about but the 88 key Oxygen. I guess the keys are probably the same though...
Maybe it's just my model but i'd recommend anyone to _seriously_ test it before buying.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

https://reverb.com/item/309459-infinite-response-vax77-2012-red-for-sale-with-polyphonic-aftertouch


----------



## N.Caffrey

hodshonf said:


> just received today.
> 
> tried a bunch - for the $$$, this won out.


Keep us updated, it's also on my list! Is there a way to turn off that screen?


----------



## Ashermusic

hodshonf said:


> AND...
> 
> HOME DEPOT studio furniture DEEEELUXE!
> 
> the 4 foot adjustable height table is PERFECT for the SL88.



Wait a minute, you got a desk at Home Depot that had a retractable shelf that holds an 88 note keyboard?


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

I got mine at Staples. Holds my 88 perfectly.


----------



## greggybud

hodshonf said:


> , aftertouch,



How does the aftertouch compare to other controllers you have experience with?
Specifically try this: Very gradually apply pressure and how does it respond? Even? Increments? You feel you have to apply too much pressure to even obtain aftertouch?

Aftertouch on the StudioLogic VMK 188+ is a joke.

I have never found any aftertouch controller that works very well. The Oberheim MC3000 is still my favorite. I would have loved the CME-VX8 or CME VX-88 had it worked as promised. Absolutely beautiful, heavy at 75 pounds, and very good (subjective) feel. 

I would love to know more about anyone owning a Physis.


----------



## John57

The best aftertouch was my Korg M1. I did not have to press hard. However for me, aftertouch never became a big feature for sample libraries developers. Instead I use my Studiologic sl88 studio with my Panorama P1 sitting on top and with my Leap motion controller I have all the flexibility in control that I ever wanted. 

P.S. The studiologic aftertouch sends data in bursts with a bit of delay between.


----------



## greggybud

hodshonf said:


> haven't had a chance to dig in too much yet. but will report back.
> 
> to be fair, it looks like the VMK 188+ you mention isn't on the Studiologic website.
> 
> AND it seems unavailable from most online retailers.
> 
> i typically avoid criticizing a manufacturer by referencing a product they no longer offer.
> 
> but hey, that's me. and this is the internet.



Correct, the VMK 188+ is long discontinued. I don't know the reasons but I would guess the obviously unorthodox method of saving settings, recalling presets, transposing in addition to poor aftertouch and a combined pitch mod stick that doesn't always go back to zero, and the complete omission of any user player controls such as the setting on your SL88 to "soft." There were also issues with the sustain and MIDI CC's not working correctly. 

I didn't know this thread was limited to exclusively current manufactured controllers. If you can't reference discontinued products to current products for comparison purposes, and discuss the known weaknesses/advantages of all, then IMO the thread is of little value unless the buyer refuses to consider anything on the used market.

What I have discovered over the past 20 years, when compared to the MC3000 is that very few measure up. I totally regret selling mine thinking the MC3000 was just the beginning of good things to come. Today they are rare.

As mentioned prior, the VX-8/88 would have been great including a similar feel to the MC3000 had everything worked. Roland, Kawai, and Kurzweil have made some excellent controllers if you can live with the limitations compared to users who need more options such as the Oberheim. But yes...hey that is just me, owning the MC3000, M-Audio, CME-VX-8, and the VMK 188+.

Once again...on paper the Physis K series looks interesting. But in reality who knows?


----------



## passsacaglia

hodshonf said:


> just received today.
> 
> tried a bunch - for the $$$, this won out.


Nice one! PS How do you like your Audient interface?


----------



## passsacaglia

greggybud said:


> Correct, the VMK 188+ is long discontinued. I don't know the reasons but I would guess the obviously unorthodox method of saving settings, recalling presets, transposing in addition to poor aftertouch and a combined pitch mod stick that doesn't always go back to zero, and the complete omission of any user player controls such as the setting on your SL88 to "soft." There were also issues with the sustain and MIDI CC's not working correctly.
> 
> I didn't know this thread was limited to exclusively current manufactured controllers. If you can't reference discontinued products to current products for comparison purposes, and discuss the known weaknesses/advantages of all, then IMO the thread is of little value unless the buyer refuses to consider anything on the used market.
> 
> What I have discovered over the past 20 years, when compared to the MC3000 is that very few measure up. I totally regret selling mine thinking the MC3000 was just the beginning of good things to come. Today they are rare.
> 
> As mentioned prior, the VX-8/88 would have been great including a similar feel to the MC3000 had everything worked. Roland, Kawai, and Kurzweil have made some excellent controllers if you can live with the limitations compared to users who need more options such as the Oberheim. But yes...hey that is just me, owning the MC3000, M-Audio, CME-VX-8, and the VMK 188+.
> 
> Once again...on paper the Physis K series looks interesting. But in reality who knows?


I have the VMK188+ and agree with some of the things like the sustain sometimes, buzzing me but I can live with that. There was some old SL88 model right or something in between the VMK188+ which people said on other forums had some problems ... and that the VMK188 was the "better" one but maybe not.

How's the new SL88 - perhaps better/the best? I got my VMK for very cheap (like 450 bucks), it was sold for much more I remember. I don't use the sliders that much, rarely touch anything on the board so maybe the SL88 is a better investment in the coming future? The aftertouch is OK, a little "moisty" and sometimes the keys are a little tougher to press compared to other Hammer Action keyboards, the Oxygen 88 is shit but had a little lighter hammer action keys which I prefered at first .. but took the VMK.


----------



## greggybud

passsacaglia said:


> I have the VMK188+ and agree with some of the things like the sustain sometimes, buzzing me but I can live with that.



The sustain issue I'm referring to apparently isn't very common, but I have run into some users that have experienced it. When you press sustain, it should be either on midi 127 or off midi 0. My VMK188+ when using any pedal, generates multiple random midi points in between 0 and 127 resulting in a huge mess when looking at CC 64.

Is this what you re referring to?


----------



## passsacaglia

greggybud said:


> The sustain issue I'm referring to apparently isn't very common, but I have run into some users that have experienced it. When you press sustain, it should be either on midi 127 or off midi 0. My VMK188+ when using any pedal, generates multiple random midi points in between 0 and 127 resulting in a huge mess when looking at CC 64.
> 
> Is this what you re referring to?


Thanks for the explanation mate, yes indeed! Exactly like that, sadly. Since I mostly do piano stuff (melody and chord wise) I'm really depended on a nice hammer key action keybed so the sustain problem really buzzes me, sometimes the sus is completely off for 2 sec in a track while I'm recording and I need to re-press the pedal, 2-3 seconds off metronome beat and I'm lost and there's some post midi fixes. Extremely unpleasant while recording stuff. A lot time goes to post midi fixing, which can be nice sometimes but can buzz your workflow. The keys are 9/10 excellent but the dilemma really affects some of your producing, sadly. 

Hope your new SL88 is better? I remember some blue old version of it had some GZ reports on same problems and incorrect midi data info or something like that..but yes, I sometimes experience your problem.

I thought I could "add" a sustain/pedal automation or effect or something in Logic to solve this. Like adding "pedal" starting from some note and I can just continue playing. But yeah it fk things up having a nice pedal sus and suddenly it's gone and the tone is completey dry..


----------



## John57

On my SL88 Studio is has a few features rarely found on other keyboards. I chose the SL88 Studio because not only it was cheaper and because it was lighter as well and I need to carry the keyboard up and down the stairs.

First not only you can adjust the white and black key velocity balance you can adjust the velocity curve for each key individually as well. I find that is mostly useful when I spilt the keyboard and wanted the drums and percussions instruments volume to be similar. I am using a custom curve or user curve since I wanted to reach velocity 127 easier. I found that the aftertouch does vary aftertouch data between zero and 127 and if you able to apply a steady pressure, the aftertouch MIDI value will stop streaming until the pressure changes.

Second I am using the Studiologic SLP3-D three pedal unit that is compatible with Studiologic SL88 Grand and SL88 Studio Midi Controllers. You have a continuous control (damper pedal) and that allows half pedal for libraries that supports that. You also have two switch pedals. All three pedals uses a single stereo plug on input 4 and still have a foot continuous pedal working on input 3. Not very common to see that.


----------



## ratherbirds

I read somewhere that the joysticks controllers send midi values continuously. Is it true ? And what about keys noise ? Is it ok compared to NI s88 or Roland A 80 ?


----------



## John57

The joysticks does not send MIDI values continuously. The Roland A80 might be a tad quieter as I only play it in the store. I do not think that the NI S88 is any better with noise. The Casio PX keyboards are quite noisy like the PX300 that my friend plays and does not compare at all to my StudioLogic SL88 in the same room.


----------



## ratherbirds

Here, i think is it the sl88 studio fatar keyboard :http://www.fatar.com/Pages/TP100LR.html#


----------



## John57

Yes that is the keybed used on the sl88 studio.


----------



## ratherbirds

sl88 Studio and sl88 Grand Fatar Keys :


----------



## woodslanding

That's a casio action at the bottom on my avatar. Been playing casio actions for 15 years.

I'm wondering how many of the disagreements about actions on this forum are due to fatar actions varying from batch to batch, even within the same model. It's crazy how little consensus there is on them. I don't care for Fatar, because I can get a velocity of 127 too easily, so I've never gotten familiar with them. Also, I find it's difficult to just 'live' in the mp-mf range. I get very consistent control from pp-fff with casios, I can ride the middle dynamics easily. I've had 3 keybeds over the years, and they exhibit identical response. And since I move this thing around all the time, the weight and sturdiness are also big factors.

These are entry level units, as I don't use anything but the keybed. Sometime soon I'd like to upgrade to the P5 mentioned here (I just hate buying knobs and sliders I won't use)

I picked up a yamaha K5 for $300, and it is a bit more consistent at ppp, but harder to ride the middle dynamics... I am still tweaking curves to see if I can get it to feel right. I find the keys a little less 'mushy' than the casios, so it could be a good thing. I also realize they make a higher-end action than this one....

The keybed that really needs upgrading is the unweighted M-audio on top. it's horrible. And as mentioned elsewhere on this thread, old synth actions from the 80's in general just had a solidity and heft that is lacking from anything today AFAIK.


----------



## cola2410

BTW, anyone tried new Roland RD-2000? Eight encoders, eight sliders, two wheels, pitchbend, buttons and switches... Pricey but looks like everything is there.


----------



## chimuelo

woodslanding said:


> That's a casio action at the bottom on my avatar. Been playing casio actions for 15 years.
> 
> I'm wondering how many of the disagreements about actions on this forum are due to fatar actions varying from batch to batch, even within the same model. It's crazy how little consensus there is on them. I don't care for Fatar, because I can get a velocity of 127 too easily, so I've never gotten familiar with them. Also, I find it's difficult to just 'live' in the mp-mf range. I get very consistent control from pp-fff with casios, I can ride the middle dynamics easily. I've had 3 keybeds over the years, and they exhibit identical response. And since I move this thing around all the time, the weight and sturdiness are also big factors.
> 
> These are entry level units, as I don't use anything but the keybed. Sometime soon I'd like to upgrade to the P5 mentioned here (I just hate buying knobs and sliders I won't use)
> 
> I picked up a yamaha K5 for $300, and it is a bit more consistent at ppp, but harder to ride the middle dynamics... I am still tweaking curves to see if I can get it to feel right. I find the keys a little less 'mushy' than the casios, so it could be a good thing. I also realize they make a higher-end action than this one....
> 
> The keybed that really needs upgrading is the unweighted M-audio on top. it's horrible. And as mentioned elsewhere on this thread, old synth actions from the 80's in general just had a solidity and heft that is lacking from anything today AFAIK.



Couldn't agree more about Fatar keybeds, except their TP Wood which is a decent bed.
I have Casio PX-5 as a spare controller but first used the the PX-3S because it was so skinny in depth.
The PX-5 adds better zone controls and the action is far more responsive for my tastes, a little better than the PX-3S, which leads me to believe their software is always improving.
I'd love a Physis K4 with Casio's top line keybed.
Their digital pianos I've demo'd at retail stores are as nice as Kawai MPs.
PX-5 is an excellent bargain, the only drawback is the hideous Orca the Whale color scheme.
Obviously the designer had some juice in the company as thousands of complaints were ignored.
The ugliest ROMpler I've ever seen, but a steal for what it does and the satisfying action is consistent.


----------



## lastmessiah

I have the M-Audio Hammer 88 (not the Oxygen) and it's fine for what it is: a rubber piano with minimal controls and good hammer action. If that's all you need I would recommend it. I like the minimalism as it suits my workflow. I use it for sample playback and general composing but I also have a Seaboard for synths and other software.


----------



## AdamKmusic

Looking to upgrade to an 88 key keyboard, currently got an Alesis V61! Just found a Fatar Studio 90 on eBay for cheap, but reading above...should I avoid? Looks like it's a bit old too


----------



## EvilDragon

cola2410 said:


> BTW, anyone tried new Roland RD-2000? Eight encoders, eight sliders, two wheels, pitchbend, buttons and switches... Pricey but looks like everything is there.



Yes. I love it and will be getting it, replacing my Kurzweil PC3K8. Best action I've played on, beats VPC1 by far.


----------



## John57

The Roland RD-2000 does look quite nice!


----------



## Shad0wLandsUK

EvilDragon said:


> Yes. I love it and will be getting it, replacing my Kurzweil PC3K8. Best action I've played on, beats VPC1 by far.


What a beauty she is...had my eye on this 'dream keybed' for a while


----------



## AdamKmusic

Anyone used an Alto Live keyboard before? Seems they go for quite cheap, but normally that means one thing...


----------



## cola2410

EvilDragon said:


> Yes. I love it and will be getting it, replacing my Kurzweil PC3K8. Best action I've played on, beats VPC1 by far.



Actually I'm also tempted but these are big, heavy and costly TBH. I've seen numerous times people having NI, Doepfer, Yamaha 88 weighted keys enriched with ipads, nanokontrols, old kentons, etc all on top of them. And I guess cost is not the only reason. I've seen a post somewhere here about building a custom keyboard controller but I can't really understand why it's so difficult to make it under 1k. I mean we need 88 piano keys, some encoders, some sliders, maybe pads and we still have some space for a computer keyboard built-in.


----------



## CT

lastmessiah said:


> I have the M-Audio Hammer 88 (not the Oxygen) and it's fine for what it is: a rubber piano with minimal controls and good hammer action. If that's all you need I would recommend it. I like the minimalism as it suits my workflow. I use it for sample playback and general composing but I also have a Seaboard for synths and other software.



I've been kind of interested in this one, but since it's fairly new, I haven't seen many reactions to it. I'm desperate to move on from my Keystation, but to what, I haven't figured out yet.

I'm a little wary of going from one M-Audio keyboard to another. Do you have any experience with the Keystations to compare? I don't need many wheels, or any faders, I just need something that isn't a huge hunk of lead with crummy-feeling keys!


----------



## lastmessiah

miket said:


> I've been kind of interested in this one, but since it's fairly new, I haven't seen many reactions to it. I'm desperate to move on from my Keystation, but to what, I haven't figured out yet.
> 
> I'm a little wary of going from one M-Audio keyboard to another. Do you have any experience with the Keystations to compare? I don't need many wheels, or any faders, I just need something that isn't a huge hunk of lead with crummy-feeling keys!



This is my first M-Audio product. I am pleased enough with it that I just recently ordered an audio interface from M-Audio. They seem to make nice functional products without any cheese added. 

The keys are plastic, mind you, but the action itself is quite nice. It isn't comparable to an acoustic piano, despite the marketing claims, but you can get good dynamics out of it. I'm glad I have this rather than, say, a Roland RD, as I prefer the superior software sample pianos and have no use for the built-in romplers. The Roland might have a nicer keybed but I'd rather spend that money elsewhere as I'm almost entirely ITB. Hope this helps.


----------



## dcoscina

Why not the Roland A88.


----------



## CT

lastmessiah said:


> This is my first M-Audio product. I am pleased enough with it that I just recently ordered an audio interface from M-Audio. They seem to make nice functional products without any cheese added.
> 
> The keys are plastic, mind you, but the action itself is quite nice. It isn't comparable to an acoustic piano, despite the marketing claims, but you can get good dynamics out of it. I'm glad I have this rather than, say, a Roland RD, as I prefer the superior software sample pianos and have no use for the built-in romplers. The Roland might have a nicer keybed but I'd rather spend that money elsewhere as I'm almost entirely ITB. Hope this helps.



Thanks! I'm going to see if I can get my hands on one for a test run.



dcoscina said:


> Why not the Roland A88.



For my case, I simply can't spend that much on a keyboard right now. Frustrating, but it's the way it is.


----------



## John57

I tried the standard 88 keystation but the velocity curves between the white and black keys were all over the place and had to return it. One time I thought about getting the M-audio Code but the number of one star reviews on Amazon just put me off. I have no idea on how good the M-Audio Hammer 88 is. The Roland RD-2000 is nice but at five times the cost of my StudioLogic keyboard I am keeping it.


----------



## Ricardinho

EvilDragon said:


> Yes. I love it and will be getting it, replacing my Kurzweil PC3K8. Best action I've played on, beats VPC1 by far.


Hi EvilDragon, and how about the Rd 2000 v-piano engine compared to Pianoteq. I noticed you love Pianoteq sound. A big hug from Brasil


----------



## EvilDragon

Pianoteq is better to me simply because it offers a lot more models and is way more tweakable, but V-Piano is also pretty good.


----------



## manuhz

I'm lucky to own a Roland RD-2000 unit and muss say it's an amazing piece of hardware. It has by far the most realistic and playable piano action I've tried, works flawlessly as my master keyboard and the V-Piano... well, it wasn't never the main reason of my purchase, but that engine sounds pretty damm good... to my hears better than Pianoteq.


----------



## Nathanael Iversen

I played the RD-2000 for the first time tonight. It was not well displayed at the GuitarCenter in San Francisco, and it was through a very low quality Roland amp - but plenty of YouTube videos exist to hear the raw sample quality. The action is excellent. It is better than a Korg Kronos RH3 action (which is quite usable, and which I enjoy playing). It is better than the Nord Stage 2 EX88, which was worse than the Kronos - I wouldn't buy the Nord for half the $4500 asking price.

I was impressed with the instrument. The dynamic control is excellent, the sounds are great, the real-time controls for computer stuff, etc. It is well-thought out and worth the money. You can really tell that they thought through how a musician would use it. For an 88 note weighted controller, the only thing I've played that is close is the the Kawai MP11. That is one big, heavy keyboard, but the action is wonderful. I'd take the Roland piano sound, however. I have not been able to play the MP11 and the RD-2000 side-by-side. There was a used Kawai MP7 there, and while the action was good, it was a little shallow. The MP7 feels more realistic at key-bottom, but perhaps it is from being well-broken in. 

The RD-2000 has an exceptional action. The "escapement" (which I think may be code for "triple sensor") really works, and it feels about the same as grand piano to repeat notes, the lift to re-engage the key feels right. The only think that is in-authentic is the rubbery feel at the key bottom. An acoustic piano is not "soft" at the bottom. It is probably better for fingers that it isn't, but real pianos are firm at the bottom. That said, the actual key feel is excellent. It is lighter than my grand, but the RD-2000 has the resistance of a top notch instrument in fine regulation. It is easy to play very softly. The keys themselves feel good - they have a textured finish and are not slick and smooth like a Korg or a Yamaha. This definitely improves the playing feel. 

The in-built sounds are perfectly usable for live playing. I've got lots of samples to use for anything that I don't like, but the core sounds are all excellent. 

I think the RD-2000 is an excellent piano controller. I haven't played it side-by-side with the Yamaha CP-4 or the new Nord Piano3, but the controls on the RD-2000 fit my use case better. If it appeals, I don't think you'd be unhappy.

BTW - the key bottom comment has to be understood in light of the fact that digital pianos use a contact strip under the keys to sense the keypress - this is why they feel that way. This is in no way unique to Rolands or the RD-2000. Once you start playing, you forget all about it. If you've been playing digital pianos or keyboards already, this isn't any big deal. It is just different than an acoustic. The action itself is very, very good. It is better than most acoustic pianos - especially uprights. The value for money is certainly there.


----------



## ratherbirds

Hi, What do you think about to use the new Yamaha MX88 keyboard like a master keyboard controler ? It can link directly to DAW and it had moduluation wheel and 4 assignables knobs and a GHS keybed .. under 1000 Euros


----------



## T.j.

cola2410 said:


> BTW, anyone tried new Roland RD-2000? Eight encoders, eight sliders, two wheels, pitchbend, buttons and switches... Pricey but looks like everything is there.



I had one for a week and just send it back, I did not like it.
If i was a pro player in some gospel/r&b/soul/hiphop setting I might have...

Also I have no need for like 80% of it's functionality

Keybed was fine, really quiet and responsive,
but I hated, hated the sounds... Not 1 of the pianos felt inspiring in any way.
95% of them were useless and all of them had either a nice top/weird bottom end or the opposite.
Layering pianos to compensate for ones weakness resulted in a weird 'phasey' mess
I tried the rd-2000 through several different headphones and speakers..

Another thing that reaally bugged me was the volume differences between the presets,
switching between them there were really big jumps hurting my ears and occasionally scaring me half to death.

Anyway, this thing feels like it was made for players in the r&b circuit.. very compressed ('cardbox-y') piano sounds out of the box.
I'm sure it sits well in pop-mixes but for classical playing i'd look elsewhere.
Just my 2c..

disclaimer:
I'm also shit player so if you like the sounds grab one.. 
Nothing wrong with the keybed. 100% sure someone with more skills could rip on it
Comparing the keys in store with all other models i would actually rank it amongst the better, probably only bested by the kawai's but I understand not those are not everyone's cup of tea either..

Edit: if you're gonna use it purely as a controller and work a lot in dark environments, be warned those leds are also quite bright (but obviously useful for on stage) I found it distracting at times


----------



## AdamKmusic

I've ended up purchasing the Nektra LX88+, unfortunately my budget doesn't reach the levels of fully weighted keys just yet. Excited to try it out when it's delivered tomorrow though!


----------



## ratherbirds

T.j. said:


> Keybed was fine, really quiet and responsive,


One of my main needs on keyboard choice is a quiet keybed. An it's a thing that it not often discussed or documented. So, is there someone who can rank the keybed below from noisiest to quietest ?
- Roland RD2000 (PHA-50)
- Roland RD800 (PHA-4 Concert)
- Roland (Ivory Feel S)
- Roland A88 (Ivory Feel G)
- Studiologic SL88 Studio (Fatar TP/100LR)
- NI S88 ((Fatar TP/100LR or like)
- Studiologic SL88 Grand (Fatar TP/40WOOD)
- Yamaha MX88 (GHS)
- Yamaha CP4 (NW-GH)
- Kawai MP11 (GF)
- Kawai VPC-1R (M3II )
- M-Audio Hammer 88 (?)


----------



## madbulk

Seven pages and I don't know what to do. Probably just get my Motif ES8 detailed and try to get another 10 years out of it.


----------



## KV626

madbulk said:


> Seven pages and I don't know what to do. Probably just get my Motif ES8 detailed and try to get another 10 years out of it.



All I can say is that my Arturia Keylab 88 is one the best pieces of equipment I've ever bought. Build quality is impeccable, it's quiet, it has all the features I need. Coupled with Pianoteq it's really a joy to play...


----------



## T.j.

ratherbirds said:


> One of my main needs on keyboard choice is a quiet keybed. An it's a thing that it not often discussed or documented. So, is there someone who can rank the keybed below from noisiest to quietest ?
> - Roland RD2000 (PHA-50)
> - Roland RD800 (PHA-4 Concert)
> - Roland (Ivory Feel S)
> - Roland A88 (Ivory Feel G)
> - Studiologic SL88 Studio (Fatar TP/100LR)
> - NI S88 ((Fatar TP/100LR or like)
> - Studiologic SL88 Grand (Fatar TP/40WOOD)
> - Yamaha MX88 (GHS)
> - Yamaha CP4 (NW-GH)
> - Kawai MP11 (GF)
> - Kawai VPC-1R (M3II )
> - M-Audio Hammer 88 (?)



Sorry, missed this one..
I've been to half a dozen stores and still have gotten to try only half of these..
It's difficult to say exactly but i'll try anyway:

Noisy:
M-Audio Hammer 88
Studiologic SL88 Studio (Fatar TP/100LR)
Roland A88 (Ivory Feel G)

Medium Noise:
Roland RD800 (PHA-4 Concert)
Yamaha CP4 (NW-GH)

Good:
Kawai VPC-1R (M3II )
> (Nobody stocked this one but I tried the ca17 which has the same keybed
it was quite a bit louder than the gf2, which also felt a lot nicer btw)
Roland RD2000 (PHA-50)
Kawai MP11 (GF)
> (not sure if this is gf or gf2. I tried both mp11 and ca67/79 and they were really, really quiet)

Once you get in the good category it's more of a matter of 'what' kind of noise you're getting..
I'd say the kawai's have a faint 'sub' thud going on, whereas the rd-2000 has more of a midrange thud,
coupled with some squishy-ness (I assumed to be one of the felt strips used for damping, I guess this could go away over time)

Overall I'd say none of the medium & up models were bad.
There were other brands to chose from with some serious $$$-tags not mentioned here that were insanely noisy (not to mention clunky).
I couldn't imagine ever working with one of these..

Hope this helps


----------



## Leon Portelance

I still love my old Yamaha P-140. I also have a Necter 25+ for a MIDI controller and a Nanopad 2'


----------



## ratherbirds

T.j. said:


> Noisy:
> M-Audio Hammer 88
> Studiologic SL88 Studio (Fatar TP/100LR)
> Roland A88 (Ivory Feel G)
> 
> Medium Noise:
> Roland RD800 (PHA-4 Concert)
> Yamaha CP4 (NW-GH)
> 
> Good:
> Kawai VPC-1R (M3II )
> > (Nobody stocked this one but I tried the ca17 which has the same keybed
> it was quite a bit louder than the gf2, which also felt a lot nicer btw)
> Roland RD2000 (PHA-50)
> Kawai MP11 (GF)
> > (not sure if this is gf or gf2. I tried both mp11 and ca67/79 and they were really, really quiet)
> ....



Ah, thank you very much. This is very useful.
Unfortunately, if I understand correctly, there is no midi master keyboard, without onboard sound generator, with a quietly keybed. Except the Kawai VPC-1, but too oriented pure pianist, without knob, and expensive.
it lacks a keyboard of simple design and that would make the joy of so many musicians:
- NW-GH or GH Keybed 
- 2 wheels
- 4 rotary knobs
- 2 buttons 
Yamaha what are you doing, you're waiting Roland or NI ??


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## EvilDragon

There's no such thing as a quiet keybed. It's moving mechanics, it will always produce SOME sound. Ever heard how just the piano action sounds like when all strings are muted? It's totally not quiet 

So accept that as a fact of life.


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## cola2410

I've been looking for it quite a while and I may probably have another perspective. What if I can have just a not deep piano-like keyboard with really good keys, but no onboard sounds, only two wheels. And enriched with extra controllers like Korg Nanos or similar put on top (I've even seen them glued by double-side tape). What will be the keyboard to start with - Roland, Doepfer, Kawai, NI?

Actually from overal cost perspective the simple keyboard+extra controllers combination represents quite a capable environment compared to other all-in-one offers.


----------



## ratherbirds

EvilDragon said:


> There's no such thing as a quiet keybed. It's moving mechanics, it will always produce SOME sound. Ever heard how just the piano action sounds like when all strings are muted? It's totally not quiet
> 
> So accept that as a fact of life.



Yes, that's absolutely true! 
But there are some noises that have nothing to do with beautiful mechanicals, like the resonance of a plastic lid, or the rebound of a synthetic key on a metal bar. It would sometimes suffice to add a strip of felt, properly placed, with memory shape so as not to disappear after 2-3 years ..
There are limits not to be exceeded.
Look at the following .. (at 4min04)

Bye


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## Jan16

EvilDragon said:


> There's no such thing as a quiet keybed. It's moving mechanics, it will always produce SOME sound. Ever heard how just the piano action sounds like when all strings are muted? It's totally not quiet
> 
> So accept that as a fact of life.


While it is true that every keybed makes noise you can't compare the mechanical noise of the keybed of an acoustic piano with for instance a master keyboard.
There are situations where mechanical noise is not an issue, at least not for me, such as in case of live performances, or when playing an acoustic piano where the level of the sound masks the mechanical noise.

But when it comes to playing a masterkeyboard in a studio or at home it DOES become an issue, very much so, and for me it is of such importance that I would not spend any money on a noisy thumping/clacking keyboard if I intend to use it in the studio (or at home).

Try playing AKAI's 88 key controller for instance, it has a noise level which I find totally unacceptable (and my neighbors will very likely agree with me).
The VPC-1 is on the other side of the spectrum and exemplary when it comes to limiting the noise of the keybed, and also Roland have taken measures in the RD-2000 to reduce the noise of the keybed.

I think it is a good development when manufacturers take measures to minimize the noise of the keybed.


----------



## KV626

Jan16 said:


> Try playing AKAI's 88 key controller for instance, it has a noise level which I find totally unacceptable (and my neighbors will very likely agree with me).



I tried that one and it is indeed unbearable. I don't understand why a company like Akai came up with such an awful keybed.


----------



## madbulk

Kawai ES8 arrived today. No. 
Don't care for the feel. Spongy. Such a matter of taste though. Didn't even realize there were no controls until I set it up. No wheels. Wall wort for power offends me. This thing is just not pro. 
Next?


----------



## khollister

So I found a local store that appears to have an RD-2000, Juno DS88 and Casio PX in stock. I'm planning to go down there this afternoon to try a few things (no one has A-88's locally though). My thoughts before putting fingers on keys:

The RD-2000 is attractive from a build perspective, the number of assignable controllers and the availability of Roland-flavor sounds that I do not otherwise have (D-50'ish stuff for instance). Main problem is the price, of course. Although, it would eliminate the need to get an X-Touch Compact due to the faders, knobs and dual wheels. The Keyboard mag review was off-the-charts positive, BTW.
The Juno DS88 is interesting since it apparently has the same/similar/improved? keybed as the A-88 along with sounds (see RD-2000 comment) and some faders. Price seems pretty good for what you get/
I was sold on the idea of one of the Casio PX pianos until I ran across a lot of forum traffic on piano sites about key noise on release. It will be interesting to see how the demo units have fared with everyone pounding on them.
Even my Sweetwater guy said the NI S88 keyboard feel is not as good as the A-88 or Casio PX's. He recommended against it unless I was planning on running NKS stuff via KK.
The Yamaha MX88 might be worth trying if they have one, although I've read a few comments that the DS88 keybed feel is better than the GHS.
The Kawai DP7 has horrible reviews from a QC standpoint, the DP11 is too expensive and the VPC leaves me with the pitchbend/mod wheel issue and it's huge. Once I go there, I might as well go for the RD-2000. I'm not an advanced piano player so the difference in action is not going to be an issue in my case.
If I was convinced that the RD-2000 would be reliable and last for 15+ years of service, I could swallow the price (I'm 62 and this could be my last keyboard purchase). It will also never move from my studio and only be used by myself, so the abuse factor will be low. Of course, this assumes I am as blown away by the build quality, keyboard feel and sounds as others have been.

More after a trip to the candy store


----------



## EvilDragon

khollister said:


> It will also never move from my studio and only be used by myself, so the abuse factor will be low.



Sounds like the last keyboard you could be purchasing indeed will be RD-2000.  It *is* built like a tank, most premium Roland boards are.


----------



## zvenx

Don't understand how it not having aftertouch isn't a huge dealbreaker.

(A proud Roland A-90 as my main controller owner)

rsp


----------



## khollister

zvenx said:


> Don't understand how it not having aftertouch isn't a huge dealbreaker.
> 
> (A proud Roland A-90 as my main controller owner)
> 
> rsp


Because I'm not playing live, and I can map aftertouch for synth stuff to another wheel, fader or pedal. The other cool RD-2000 feature is a fistful of pedal inputs


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## khollister

Well, the RD-2000 is a very impressive keyboard. The action is fantastic - much nicer than a RD-800 they still had. The 800 action had a lot more rebound "spring" for lack of a better term - it was looser feeling but almost slower to play because of the long travel and weird rebound action. Still haven't decided on whether to drop the cash, but the RD-2000 would be perfect. I also like the keybed and piano sound on the Yamaha Montage a lot, but the damn thing is $4000 due to being a full workstation (which I definitely don't need).


----------



## zvenx

I have never played the RD-2000. I have a Roland A-90 which was my favourite controller since I first played one in the 90's and eventually bought one some 11 years or so ago. I think I first considered the RD-2000 as a great 88 key primarily from ED's posts and then I researched it. For me the no Aftertouch was a dealbreaker... But yes everyone is different with different needs and tastes.
rsp


----------



## ZenFaced

EvilDragon said:


> For portable and lightweight the best is probably Casio PX-5S. 12 kg (in letters. TWELVE) for triple-sensor 88-key action, 6 sliders and 4 knobs.
> 
> For BEST possible action (but a bit bulkier, yet still manageable), definitely Roland RD-2000. 21 kg, but this is bar none the best action I've ever played so far.



+1 on what you said about the Casio. 

Curious if you ever had chance to compare the action of the RD 2000 with the RD 800 which is what I have


----------



## EvilDragon

zvenx said:


> Don't understand how it not having aftertouch isn't a huge dealbreaker.



The action itself makes up for it, believe it or not. Aftertouch usually doesn't go well with triple sensor graded actions (they're pretty rare, and kinda ruin the feel too).

Besides, my prime objective is to relegate all aftertouch needs to a Roli Rise 49 instead, because it has polyphonic AT and MPE 



ZenFaced said:


> Curious if you ever had chance to compare the action of the RD 2000 with the RD 800 which is what I have



Better in each and every regard. RD-800 felt quite heavy to me somehow (might be the weird rebound thing khollister mentions - it was a long time ago), RD-2000 is just smooth, consistent, fast, not springy. Really the best Roland did so far - it's pretty amazing for a company that doesn't actually build acoustic pianos.


----------



## khollister

EvilDragon said:


> The action itself makes up for it, believe it or not. Aftertouch usually doesn't go well with triple sensor graded actions (they're pretty rare, and kinda ruin the feel too).
> 
> Besides, my prime objective is to relegate all aftertouch needs to a Roli Rise 49 instead, because it has polyphonic AT and MPE
> 
> 
> 
> Better in each and every regard. RD-800 felt quite heavy to me somehow (might be the weird rebound thing khollister mentions - it was a long time ago), RD-2000 is just smooth, consistent, fast, not springy. Really the best Roland did so far - it's pretty amazing for a company that doesn't actually build acoustic pianos.



I was really surprised at how different the RD-2000 is to the RD-800. The 800 is closer to what I remember of older Roland hammer keybeds. The 2000 (PHA-50) was very similar to the Yamaha Montage in feel, although the Montage keyboard was very slightly slower feeling to me.


----------



## khollister

I have decided to pass on the RD-2000. Mainly because I can't really justify the cost and also because I ran across some traffic on a couple piano forums where several RD-2000 owners had to have the keybeds replaced under warranty for noise issues that appeared shortly after purchase. That didn't exactly reassure me about spending $2400.

I also have decided to pass on the Casio PX stuff for similar reasons - nice feel but the piano and Casio forums are flooded with complaints of really loud key release noises after a while and I just don't want to deal with that.

I'm back to thinking I will go with what my first idea was - the Roland A-88. It has been out for several years, I have yet to read a single reliability complaint or bad review, the cost is high (for what it is) but far more reasonable than most of the stage pianos or high end workstations, the size is right & it takes 3 pedals. The only reason I haven't come home with one is no one locally has them to even try.


----------



## khollister

Just got off the phone with Sweetwater and ordered a Roland A-88. It may not be the perfect action, but I feel it is a safe choice and I have yet to find any discussion on the various forums or youtube about issues or keybed problems (noise). I plan on trying a spare iPad I have with TouchOSC for CC control, and if that isn't to my liking, I'll pick up an X-Touch Compact.

Strings were "my instrument", not piano, so I'm not a virtuoso keyboard player by a long shot. The A-88 action will be 1000% better than what I currently use and the compact size is handy for my upcoming DIY desk project.


----------



## EvilDragon

khollister said:


> also because I ran across some traffic on a couple piano forums where several RD-2000 owners had to have the keybeds replaced under warranty for noise issues that appeared shortly after purchase.



Several users vs hundreds upon hundreds of sold already that are extremely likely working just fine. My assurance did not waver in light of that information. :D


----------



## khollister

EvilDragon said:


> Several users vs hundreds upon hundreds of sold already that are extremely likely working just fine. My assurance did not waver in light of that information. :D



I know - that wasn't the main reason I passed. Given my keyboard skills and complete lack of need for any on-board sounds, I just couldn't see paying the $1400 premium over the A-88. I think it is a great keyboard, and if I were gigging and/or didin't already own Keyscape (EP's), Ivory ACD, Garritan CFX, Galaxy Vintage D, Ravenscroft 275 & Imperfect Samples Walnut Steinway, I might feel differently. The size of the A-88 was also a plus.


----------



## ratherbirds

khollister said:


> I know - that wasn't the main reason I passed. Given my keyboard skills and complete lack of need for any on-board sounds, I just couldn't see paying the $1400 premium over the A-88. I think it is a great keyboard, and if I were gigging and/or didin't already own Keyscape (EP's), Ivory ACD, Garritan CFX, Galaxy Vintage D, Ravenscroft 275 & Imperfect Samples Walnut Steinway, I might feel differently. The size of the A-88 was also a plus.



I think about buy an A88 too. Please, send us your first impress about A88 keybed, touch feel, quiet .. Satisfied or not.


----------



## khollister

ratherbirds said:


> I think about buy an A88 too. Please, send us your first impress about A88 keybed, touch feel, quiet .. Satisfied or not.



Sure - should have some opinions by week end


----------



## cola2410

Just a thought, I know SL88 gets no love here but anything about Orla? They are quite affordable and I haven't found anything regarding keybed type but they are also Italian (like Fatar).


----------



## khollister

ratherbirds said:


> I think about buy an A88 too. Please, send us your first impress about A88 keybed, touch feel, quiet .. Satisfied or not.



OK - A-88 came finally (6:00PM!) and I have it setup and playing. First, a shoutout to Sweetwater on packing. It was double boxed, Fedex Ground didn't mangle the box and the interior Roland box and packing was flawless - always a concern when shipping something 1000+ miles that weighs 50-60 lbs in the box.

Also need to figure out what the deal is with my M-Audio damper pedal I was using - doesn't work with the A-88 although the included Roland DP-10 worked fine the minute I plugged it in the same pedal jack. I also am not sure what the point of the Roland USB driver is - it's not like this thing has USB audio or something. I guess a call to Roland and/or Sweetwater might be in order tomorrow to get to the bottom of that.

Physically, I think the keyboard is plain but pretty classy looking. The quality is typical of what I remember of higher-end Roland stuff from 20-30 years ago. All of the keys are the same height and the gaps between keys are very, very close to perfect (a few spacing irregularities but we are talking ultra picky here). The Ivory Feel surface texture is quite nice on both the white and black keys - actually the white keys surface feel is nicer than our Kawai studio upright acoustic. 

Granted the unit is brand new, but the keybed is mechanically pretty quiet. The white keys have a very muted thud and a faint higher pitched component - the black keys seem even quieter. Frankly, our acoustic Kawai makes more mechanical noise than this thing. It doesn't strike me as much louder than the RD-2000 I played (also new out of the box). 

The keybed feel is very nice. Travel is between the RD-800 I played (quite long) and the RD-2000 and Yamaha Montage (shorter than I expected). I would say the key travel is slightly less than out Kawai acoustic. Not mushy at the bottom, but not jarring. I think the keyboard has excellent repetition (it clearly behaves like a triple sensor keyboard IMHO). The rebound action is just a hair on the slow side but feels more "normal" to me than the RD-800 I played. Overall I would say the action is a touch on the heavy side (think Baldwin, not Yamaha) although I have no problem playing fast on it. Bear in mind I am a very average pianist, so that may not be saying much.

It feels a lot more like our Kawai acoustic than I expected. The biggest difference seems to be the escapement response. The real piano has a little more "over center" obvious escapement than the A-88.

The RD-2000 is clearly a "faster" feeling keyboard, although I was not convinced it felt all that much like a real piano when I played it. I'm sure ED will argue that (and he may be right - it has been a very long time since I played on a good full grand). The RD-800 felt really weird to me and I clearly prefer the A-88 (heresy!). The Montage was like a slightly harder playing RD-2000 as I recall.

Overall, I'm really pleased with this and I can see why Eric @ Spectrasonics is so enamored of these keyboards. I'm sure he could afford to use whatever he wanted to as controllers, but this doesn't feel _worse_ than the high end Roland stage pianos, just a little _different.
_
The joystick sucks for CC1 and the price is a bit steep for how basic it is, but the size/form factor is nice (low profile and narrow depth) and the keybed is excellent. I just need to settle on a velocity curve (I'm using 1 - LIGHT at the moment. Default is 2).


----------



## ratherbirds

khollister said:


> OK - A-88 came finally (6:00PM!) and I have it setup and playing. First, a shoutout to Sweetwater on packing. It was double boxed, Fedex Ground didn't mangle the box and the interior Roland box and packing was flawless - always a concern when shipping something 1000+ miles that weighs 50-60 lbs in the box.
> 
> .....


Thanks a lot for your return


----------



## ratherbirds

https://digitalpianobestreview.com/2014/07/18/comparison-of-keyboard-actions-of-roland-kawai-yamaha-gh3-pha-gf-rm/

do you agree ?

※、☆>◎>上>○>△、


----------



## ratherbirds

Hi,
I received my A88. Here my first impress :
- Keybed quite silent. Mechanic keys three times less noisy compared to that of my old Yamaha S80. I think it almost like a GH Yahama keybed for this.
- Keys quite heavy, more than my old S80. It's less plastic. The appearance of the Key material is matte, not shiny. Like a real acoustic piano keyboard. The keys are covered with a species of synthetic shell that gives them this particular grain.
- The return of the keys is slower with a small rebound. But that feel more like a natural mechanic. The spring is less metalic and less tense. But in case of trill or fast replay, the key will be replayed more mid-race and therefore less dynamic.
- I like the 'escapement' emulation with a slight 'clicking' feeling on key when i play pianissimo.

I added a Korg NanoKontrol 2 to this Good Keyboard to have more knobs controler to modify in real time the vst instruments sound parameters (FM8)

Bye

Test installation :


----------



## Josh Richman

Yamaha CP300 has always had the best feel/action to me. It bulky and heavy, but the graded weighted action feels great. I think the high end Yamaha’s CPs are all a good bet.


----------



## Maximvs

I have purchased a few months ago a Yamaha CP4 stage piano and I can confirm that the action is excellent. I did try a lot of stage piano and master keyboards before settling on the CP4. Unfortunately keyboard action is a very personal thing and what works well for someone may not work for another... Testing is key  Cheers, Max


----------



## jjmmuir

I have followed this thread with interest and wanted to share my own experience in case others find themselves in a similar position. I have been looking to consolidate my yamaha p-95 (which I never really enjoyed playing) and a necktar LK61+ into a single unit. I looked for months and being in hong kong I could never try everything i wanted (no native instruments, studio logic or doepfer keyboards for example). At first I was most interested in the roland a-88 or fp-30s as space is an issue in my room...but then i actually played one. Don't think I could ever get used to the initial resistance on those keys...pretty disappointed especially after finding a cheap one second hand. The roland RD2000 though was lovely, the best I tried but overspec'd for my own needs. The yamaha cp-4 was also very good but too big. I was about to get a yamaha p-115 as the key bed has improved from the p-95, when the guy in the shop suggested I tried some of the casios. I had a bad experience 10 years ago with casio and would never have tried one but in the end... I bought the casio PX-160 after playing it for just a few minutes. I am quite delighted with it. The key action and feel is lovely (same as a few of more expensive casio models i understand) - it's on the light side but very similar to pianos I've played. It's compact, has speakers and came with a triple pedal/stand. Had it for a few weeks now, and I play more piano now than ever before. Although i didn't manage to get everything into one keyboard I am super happy I found the px-160. Cheers


----------



## Fox

Been following this thread hoping to find something to upgrade to from my Arturia Keylab 88. It is decent, but I wonder what could be better. Though I have a big limitation, and that is the height needs to be same as the Arturia Keylab 88 (which is 4.25"). Anything out there with better action (my most coveted need) and a height equal to or less than 4.25"?


----------



## Pier

Fox said:


> Been following this thread hoping to find something to upgrade to from my Arturia Keylab 88. It is decent, but I wonder what could be better. Though I have a big limitation, and that is the height needs to be same as the Arturia Keylab 88 (which is 4.25"). Anything out there with better action (my most coveted need) and a height equal to or less than 4.25"?



Height is a big problem with hammer action keyboards.

I have a Yamaha P155 which I'm happy with, but it's too tall to be installed over my legs in front of my DAW and keep a comfortable position with the keyboard and mouse.

The Doepfer master keyboards seem to be the best option with no knobs/faders on the top but damn they are not cheap. The PK88 with 11cm of height seems to be the most affordable but I'd like the LMK4 with 10cm of height. Since I already have my P155 and I'm a hobyyist I can't really justify spending 1500-2000 USD on another weighted keyboard.

I will probably end up buying a semi-weighted 88 keys controller and move away from the computer to use the nice keys.


----------



## Fox

Pier Bover said:


> Height is a big problem with hammer action keyboards.



Yup, I figured as much. Thought I'd ask here and see if anyone knew of options! Appreciate the reply.



Pier Bover said:


> The Doepfer master keyboards seem to be the best option with no knobs/faders on the top but damn they are not cheap. The PK88 with 11cm of height seems to be the most affordable but I'd like the LMK4 with 10cm of height. Since I already have my P155 and I'm a hobyyist I can't really justify spending 1500-2000 USD on another weighted keyboard.



Those might work. The maximum height I can allow is 10.8cm (or 4.25"). On their website, Doepfer says the their height is 10.5cm/4.13" without ball corners, but 12cm/4.72" with the ball corners (and all keyboards/cases come with ball corners). 

I don't know these keyboards so I'm confused if the keyboard can be removed from its case; I'm assuming not? 

Also, do the ball corners add height (the extra 1.5cm) equally at both the bottom and top of the keyboard/case?


----------



## conan

Massimo said:


> I have purchased a few months ago a Yamaha CP4 stage piano and I can confirm that the action is excellent. I did try a lot of stage piano and master keyboards before settling on the CP4. Unfortunately keyboard action is a very personal thing and what works well for someone may not work for another... Testing is key  Cheers, Max



I can also vouch for the CP4. I've tried a lot of controllers and stage pianos, and this one has been my favorite by far. It's a joy to own and play.


----------



## TheKRock

conan said:


> I can also vouch for the CP4. I've tried a lot of controllers and stage pianos, and this one has been my favorite by far. It's a joy to own and play.


Here is my CP4 built into my desk - I had the builder take into account the feet on the bottom of the board along with its height so that when I sit at it its at the perfect height to play...The computer mouse and keyboard are at desk height so there is no difference from sitting at a normal computer desk.


----------



## ratherbirds

It's a good idea the removable transparent plate
Your knees easily pass under?



TheKRock said:


> Here is my CP4 built into my desk - I had the builder take into account the feet on the bottom of the board along with its height so that when I sit at it its at the perfect height to play...The computer mouse and keyboard are at desk height so there is no difference from sitting at a normal computer desk.


----------



## TheKRock

ratherbirds said:


> It's a good idea the removable transparent plate
> Your knees easily pass under?


Yup! I made sure to measure everything so when I have my piano stool there its exactly like sitting at a normal stand. Its awesome to work at!


----------



## steveo42

Add me to the list of pianists looking for the holy grail of weighted keyboard controllers. I'm currently using an ancient Roland RD-150 which I believe is Ivory G and it along with an RD-700 has served me well. I sold the RD-700 a few years ago due to my no longer needing a touring keyboard. So the RD-150 is getting old and I'm looking at something better for my studio. On a whim I stopped in GC and played around a little but unfortunately didn't take notes so I know brands but not actual model numbers. I gravitated toward the high end units on display and am looking for a stage type piano not a console. Not a fan of built in speakers etc as I have a studio, own all the popular VSTi pianos. 

Roland RD-2000, reminded me of my RD-700 except the keys have more "release bounce" or quicker popping up to touch my fingers after being pressed. Hard to describe. With my RD-700 and RD-150 as well, after release of a key, it's "gone" from my finger. The RD-2000 gives an extra "touch" to the finger. Overall though, super high quality feeling and looking unit. 

Casio , various higher end models, seemed noisy to me. A little more clunky than I like.
Korg, various workstation models also seemed a bit clunky and mechanical feeling although very solidly built. To be honest I wasn't really impressed except for the price/value which is excellent.

Yamaha surprised me the most. No CP4/40 on display but the models I played including some high end console models seemed very smooth and likable. Same league as the RD-2000 just different.

No Kawai or StudioLogic units on display. I may hit B&H to see what they have on display.

Williams.. I can't believe they sell something like this... Nuff' said...

So anyway, other considerations are fitting under a desk which I don't think the Yamaha are going to do as they are too thick.
Quality of build is the big one. I toured back in the 90's with FATAR based keyboards including StudioLogic and Ensoniq (remember them?) and I got tired of repairing the awful design and cheaply made parts. Hammer weights would crack, the key switches would get dirty and need to be cleaned out etc... Speaking of key switches, I watched the StudioLogic video in this thread. The one in Japanese (I think?) and I saw those same grey rubber, carbon switches that I got so good at cleaning with my previously mentioned Fatar keyboards. Thanks but no thanks. I never want to see those things ever again at least not in the design Fatar uses. 
I don't know if Roland uses them but even if they do I have never had to clean one so they figured out how to do it right.

Sooooo, if you haven't fallen asleep by now, I'm leaning toward the RD-2000 because I like Roland's quality, same for Yamaha BTW, and the Roland will fit in my studio better. The things I don't need are the sounds.
Is there any other Roland that has the same action, but less gadgets?

The Kawai looks good but it won't fit in my studio. I do have to try it and it's bigger brother as well though. I do want some controllers on board, but don't need tons of them as I use a Mackie MCU-Pro in my studio.

Any advice?
Thanks for listening!


----------



## synthpunk

Studiologic just announced for NAMM.

Studiologic SL 73/88 Studio Controllers. Hammer Action, Aftertouch. 3 X/Y controllers. No sliders. $499usd for the 73.
http://www.sonicstate.com/news/2018/01/25/namm-2018-studiologic-sl73-studio-midi-controller/


----------



## steveo42

steveo42 said:


> Add me to the list of pianists looking for the holy grail of weighted keyboard controllers. I'm currently using an ancient Roland RD-150 which I believe is Ivory G and it along with an RD-700 has served me well. I sold the RD-700 a few years ago due to my no longer needing a touring keyboard. So the RD-150 is getting old and I'm looking at something better for my studio. On a whim I stopped in GC and played around a little but unfortunately didn't take notes so I know brands but not actual model numbers. I gravitated toward the high end units on display and am looking for a stage type piano not a console. Not a fan of built in speakers etc as I have a studio, own all the popular VSTi pianos.
> 
> Roland RD-2000, reminded me of my RD-700 except the keys have more "release bounce" or quicker popping up to touch my fingers after being pressed. Hard to describe. With my RD-700 and RD-150 as well, after release of a key, it's "gone" from my finger. The RD-2000 gives an extra "touch" to the finger. Overall though, super high quality feeling and looking unit.
> 
> Casio , various higher end models, seemed noisy to me. A little more clunky than I like.
> Korg, various workstation models also seemed a bit clunky and mechanical feeling although very solidly built. To be honest I wasn't really impressed except for the price/value which is excellent.
> 
> Yamaha surprised me the most. No CP4/40 on display but the models I played including some high end console models seemed very smooth and likable. Same league as the RD-2000 just different.
> 
> No Kawai or StudioLogic units on display. I may hit B&H to see what they have on display.
> 
> Williams.. I can't believe they sell something like this... Nuff' said...
> 
> So anyway, other considerations are fitting under a desk which I don't think the Yamaha are going to do as they are too thick.
> Quality of build is the big one. I toured back in the 90's with FATAR based keyboards including StudioLogic and Ensoniq (remember them?) and I got tired of repairing the awful design and cheaply made parts. Hammer weights would crack, the key switches would get dirty and need to be cleaned out etc... Speaking of key switches, I watched the StudioLogic video in this thread. The one in Japanese (I think?) and I saw those same grey rubber, carbon switches that I got so good at cleaning with my previously mentioned Fatar keyboards. Thanks but no thanks. I never want to see those things ever again at least not in the design Fatar uses.
> I don't know if Roland uses them but even if they do I have never had to clean one so they figured out how to do it right.
> 
> Sooooo, if you haven't fallen asleep by now, I'm leaning toward the RD-2000 because I like Roland's quality, same for Yamaha BTW, and the Roland will fit in my studio better. The things I don't need are the sounds.
> Is there any other Roland that has the same action, but less gadgets?
> 
> The Kawai looks good but it won't fit in my studio. I do have to try it and it's bigger brother as well though. I do want some controllers on board, but don't need tons of them as I use a Mackie MCU-Pro in my studio.
> 
> Any advice?
> Thanks for listening!



Bump...
Any comments, advice?
Sepcifically does Roland have any other keyboards/controllers with the same EXACT action, not a variant, of the one in the RD2000?

Damm, that RD2000 is tugging at my credit card 
I think it's those red lights around the controller knobs.
I'm a sucker for that hahah!

I'm planning on making the GC, Sam's "Ass" tour this weekend and this time take the time write down model numbers so I can offer my direct opinions.


----------



## khollister

I went through this last year, although my budget and willingness to accept a less than perfect action was different to yours. I played a RD-2000 and would have bought one except for the price and the fact it was pretty large (deep). As far as I know the action in that board is new - I don't believe anything else uses it. I ended up with a Roland A-88 - action was not as good as the RD-2000 but I think it is pretty good and the keyboard is quite compact except in width.

I think the RD-2000 is about as good as it gets right now.


----------



## steveo42

khollister said:


> I went through this last year, although my budget and willingness to accept a less than perfect action was different to yours. I played a RD-2000 and would have bought one except for the price and the fact it was pretty large (deep). As far as I know the action in that board is new - I don't believe anything else uses it. I ended up with a Roland A-88 - action was not as good as the RD-2000 but I think it is pretty good and the keyboard is quite compact except in width.
> 
> I think the RD-2000 is about as good as it gets right now.



Thank you for your experience!
Yea, I'm in the same boat. The price is killing me. I feel I'm paying a lot of money for sounds I probably will not use much, unless I'm missing something? 
If I wanted a stack of Roland sounds I would pick up an Integra and be done with it.

Size is somewhat important too. That's what is deep sixing the Yamaha controllers.
Way too big to fit under a desk.

Like most folks here, I have tons of VSTi and I also have some hardware modules as well so this purchase is to upgrade the action as compared to my RD-150 which I believe is the Ivory-G or whatever Roland calls it. I actually like it but it's getting tired and I would like the use of 3 pedals, multiple sensors etc. 

So in a nutshell, I'm all about action and much less about sounds.


----------



## khollister

The A-88 is Ivory-G, but I think there are several variations on different products. It is pretty nice (none of this stuff really feels like a good piano to me), compact, has 3 pedal inputs (I have a switched sustain, continuous for aftertouch and a Moog expression pedal for mod). I does have the funky Roland lever and no faders, so some type of control surface is needed. I have been using an iPad with a TouchOSC template.


----------



## ratherbirds

Hi, the only objections i have towards the A88 are :
- the impossibility to play fast trills properly (especially on the same key)
- the calibration of keys velocity has to be checked (it happened to me on C2) and eventualy has to be corrected by return to SAV (after sales service)
- you have to add nanokontrol 2 (or other) or expression pedal for replace modulation wheel and other missing controls
What I particularly appreciate is
- the "mechanics" of the keyboard is relatively noiseless
- the perfect adaptation for the virtual piano instruments play
- its matte material


----------



## cola2410

Just a thought - what about Roland FP-90 for some folks like me who like playing piano without computer attached? Roland website claims it has the same keybed as in RD-2000 and built-in speakers. Anyone tried it?


----------



## steveo42

I'd be interested in this as well.


----------



## EvilDragon

cola2410 said:


> Just a thought - what about Roland FP-90 for some folks like me who like playing piano without computer attached? Roland website claims it has the same keybed as in RD-2000 and built-in speakers. Anyone tried it?



Yes, it has exactly the same keybed. And that keybed is a bliss to play.


----------



## steveo42

Hi ED... I'm between the CP4 and RD2000... To be honest, I don't feel much of a difference between my ancient RD-150 which I "think" is Fatar TP23 and the RD2000.. Sure, the escapement and fast repeat of a key but I get around this..
So here is my dilemma, I'm a jazz artist, and I'm looking to upgrade the RD-150 but to be honest after trying the various keybeds I'm not finding anything action wise that floats my boat. Of course this is like auditioning monitors at Guitar Center when my studio is fully treated so I'm certain I am missing something here... I don't like keyboards with speakers.. Too much extra baggage... I have NOT tried the Cp4 but did try a couple of Yammy Montage keyboards and I liked the keybed... So advice needed here... Appreciate your advice.. Likes and dislikes... BTW I have eliminated Casio, too noisy, Kawai, reliability concerns, Fatar/Studiologic.. Quality issues, and yes I have experienced this while touring.. I got very good at gluing the weights back into cracked hammers on the 2 Fatar keybeds I've used.

Advice?


----------



## chillbot

EvilDragon said:


> Yes, it has exactly the same keybed. And that keybed is a bliss to play.


I just got the RD2000 and it blows me away. That is a good word, it is 'bliss'. It's incredibly silky smooth. But nothing like a real piano, if that's a characteristic anyone here is looking for.


----------



## EvilDragon

Depends on which "real piano" you've played, really. RD2000 is definitely similar to my upright piano action, for example.


----------



## puremusic

For those of you with 88 key keyboards with aftertouch, how do you like the feel of the aftertouch on them?


----------



## ratherbirds

On 88 keys weighted keyboards, I think that you have to press hard for the Aftertouch to turn on. And when one is in a high level of pressure necessary to the activation one does not have enough force to well modulate the effect (tested on S80).
It's easier on the semi-weighted keyboards.


----------



## puremusic

ratherbirds said:


> On 88 keys weighted keyboards, I think that you have to press hard for the Aftertouch to turn on. And when one is in a high level of pressure necessary to the activation one does not have enough force to well modulate the effect (tested on S80).
> It's easier on the semi-weighted keyboards.



Yes I'd like to avoid the hard press/little control situation if possible. I don't have enough experience with aftertouch keyboards to know what variety of feel for it there is out there. I've only tried a Swissonic 88 which was too much of the hard press type for me, and a Seaboard which is a whole other story, great range of control but it isn't a piano keyboard in the end however fun it is. I've been considering the Arturia and the Native Instrument's 88's, but I can't try before I buy.


----------



## EvilDragon

ratherbirds said:


> On 88 keys weighted keyboards, I think that you have to press hard for the Aftertouch to turn on.



Absolutely not true on my Kurzweil PC3K8.


----------



## puremusic

Speaking of the feel of aftertouch, are there keyboards with aftertouch more like the Rise, i.e. you raise and lower the key for a wide range, or is it mostly just pressing something extra at the bottom?


----------



## EvilDragon

It's just pressing extra at the bottom.


----------



## puremusic

Hmm. I might wind up doing the Seaboard for aftertouch thing like you.


----------



## EvilDragon

It's a good choice. My current MIDI controller does have regular aftertouch, but once I upgrade to RD-2000, I won't have it, so Rise 49 seems like a great thing to do then. I'm still not sure if I'm going to sell my PC3K8 or not... I love some things it can do (most importantly, it's actually a much better MIDI master controller than RD-2000!)... might downgrade it to PC3K6 to also have a synth weighted action, even though I also have S49 mkII... decisions, decisions.


----------



## puremusic

Haha, it's nice to have decisions like these.


----------



## EvilDragon

Except for the person having to carry them out :D


----------



## steveo42

EvilDragon said:


> Except for the person having to carry them out :D


Ain't that the truth !


----------



## Cire

What a pity I did not come across this forum earlier! I was just on a journey to find an 88 key MIDI controller online (where I live, no music stores) and ended up with a Nektar LX88+. Value for money, no doubt. Piano-like? Definitely not. For a Rachmaninov piece or some barking Rhodes you do have to dig in (and, thankfully, the board allows it - but have a good support underneath ), and although there are 4 velocity curves to chose from they are all some form of compromise in my view. 

From a humble hobby pianist's perspective: I think it's challenging to find the right keybed for one's taste and playing style that also best suits the various virtual emulations available, subject to adjusting / tweaking velocity curves of both board and software. Workstations / stage pianos are more convenient in this regard, but then who wants to be stuck with inbuilt sounds only (however good they may be).

All in all the Nektar LX88+ is definitely not 'piano like' to play, but a great compromise for: 1. playability across different sound categories 2. portability 3. DAW integration & configurability, and 4. footprint.


----------



## puremusic

Anyone here use the Doepfer LMK+ series? If so how do you like them?


----------



## Cire

puremusic said:


> Anyone here use the Doepfer LMK+ series? If so how do you like them?


I had an LMK2+, but the older (i.e. non-USB, non-GH TP/40) version. Bare bones, rock solid, excellent action (could be described as rather heavy, but was great for proper & nuanced piano playing).


----------



## KV626

ratherbirds said:


> On 88 keys weighted keyboards, *I think that you have to press hard for the Aftertouch to turn on. And when one is in a high level of pressure necessary to the activation one does not have enough force to well modulate the effect* (tested on S80).



I never tried an S80, but definitely not on my Keylab 88.


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## puremusic

I went to the local music store and they had an RD-2000. Tried it out of course. I guess it really is all that after all. At least the FP-90 is cheaper and the same keybed. 

I hardly had to raise those keys at all before they could be played again. I couldn't try hands on an Arturia Keylab 88 or Kontrol 88 but, feels like it'd be an apples to oranges comparison anyway. You probably can't raise a key up just a bit and hit it again with them can you?


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## EvilDragon

Both Keylab and Kontrol have double sensor keybeds so no, you cannot do that same thing as on RD-2000/FP-90 which have a triple sensor keybed.


----------



## puremusic

Sigh. Choices. Guess I'll be putting off a purchase and saving up a bit more at this rate.


----------



## EvilDragon

Did you try the Casio PX-5S? It also has a triple sensor keybed (but likely calibrated quite differently compared to Roland), if you're looking for a more affordable option?


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## puremusic

They had some Casios but I didn't try them, childhood trauma from those cheapie toy keyboards has turned me off the brand. A little unfair I'm sure.  

They had Yamaha MX88BK and some cheaper Yamaha's I tried though. Not a bad feel.


----------



## puremusic

Thing is.. I don't want to settle. I want to get one and be done. Though that's mostly just a feeling.. not a reality. I can wait a bit more. . .


----------



## EvilDragon

Yeah, you should get over that trauma. PX-5S is a very VERY good board for the money, and weight of the whole unit is kinda amazing.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Cire said:


> What a pity I did not come across this forum earlier! I was just on a journey to find an 88 key MIDI controller online (where I live, no music stores) and ended up with a Nektar LX88+. Value for money, no doubt. Piano-like? Definitely not. For a Rachmaninov piece or some barking Rhodes you do have to dig in (and, thankfully, the board allows it - but have a good support underneath ), and although there are 4 velocity curves to chose from they are all some form of compromise in my view.



You probably know that the velocity curve depends almost as much on the receiving instrument as on the controller. And I only say "almost" because instruments tend to be mapped to standard controllers.

But the velocity curve shouldn't be an obstacle, because there are lots of programs that let you tweak and create your own. Most DAWs have that built in, for example; it's just a matter of offsetting each incoming velocity value by the amount you want. (Thankfully you can generally get onscreen curves rather than going in and tweaking each MIDI velocity value by hand!)

It's really the feel of the keyboard that's most important. Of course the velocity curve affects the way the keyboard feels, but you can't really adjust the keys' weight and action in software.



> Workstations / stage pianos are more convenient in this regard, but then who wants to be stuck with inbuilt sounds only (however good they may be).



You do know that you're not stuck with them, right? They all have MIDI out, so you can use them to play the best sampled piano libraries and everything else.

Sorry if I'm taking your post too literally and you know all this. Just wanted to make sure...


----------



## puremusic

ED Thanks for clueing me in on the handling of the RD-2000 & FP-90. I figure I'll make an order for an FP-90 shortly.


----------



## maestro2be

I ordered a RD-2000 today. Will be here Monday. Will be a nice upgrade from an Arturia 61.


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## puremusic

You should be very happy. My FP-90 arrived in the mail the other day. The feel is great, key expressiveness what I wanted.  And it looks great too, a fine white one with three pedal board and all.


----------



## dcoscina

EvilDragon said:


> It's a good choice. My current MIDI controller does have regular aftertouch, but once I upgrade to RD-2000, I won't have it, so Rise 49 seems like a great thing to do then. I'm still not sure if I'm going to sell my PC3K8 or not... I love some things it can do (most importantly, it's actually a much better MIDI master controller than RD-2000!)... might downgrade it to PC3K6 to also have a synth weighted action, even though I also have S49 mkII... decisions, decisions.


I used one of those and found the synth action way too stiff. I bought a used PC3x 8 years ago and it's the longest I've ever held onto my master keyboard since my Roland U20 that I used from 1990 to 1999. 

Now I've been looking again for something like the new Korg D05 or the Roland A88...it's time for a change and I hear the action on the Roland is very nice


----------



## EvilDragon

You mean PC3K6 being too stiff? Nah, not to me. It's Fatar TP9, which is the same as on Virus TI and Waldorf Blofeld keyboard... Plays quite nicely for a synth action, as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## dopamine

I'm kind of close to getting an RD-2000 and had some really basic questions. For context, I have been a pianist for a long time but two months ago, I did not know what DAW, VST, etc stood for (I need an AG (Acronym Guide)). I'm currently teaching myself Logic Pro (though some friends have encouraged me to move to Ableton). I first tried out some much less expensive midi controllers and came to the RD-2000 mostly because of the action.
-A few people on this thread have mentioned not caring about onboard sounds. If I am using the Rd-2000 just as a midi controller for Logic, and never as a stage piano, etc- are the onboard sounds also not likely to be useful for me? (and should I therefore look for something different/cheaper?)
-How important is automapping/deep integration to one's specific DAW?
-I read a review on musicplayers that said one needs to install the Roland MIDI driver, otherwise "otherwise you connect using "generic," which doesn't give you audio support." It goes on to say that Roland has a poor record of updating their drivers long-term to be compatible with new OS's. Should I be concerned about this? I've definitely dealt with other types of products where companies stop updating after a few years.
-how important are mod/pitch wheels and the other knobs, controls etc. I also had a thought of replacing my current piano with a silent piano which would have great action and midi out, but no controls. Or possibly a Kawai MP-11 or VPC1.
-From a workflow standpoint, am I much better off with something smaller that will fit on my desk and be directly in front of my computer?
I appreciate any other general advice or suggestions for other keyboards. Thanks!


----------



## EvilDragon

Onboard sounds can be useful sometimes... I wouldn't throw them out of my bed, hehe (especially considering that RD-2000 has V-Piano tech inside).

Automapping/deep integration personally not important to me.

You don't need the driver if you aren't going to use the RD-2000 as an audio interface (which you absolutely don't need to do).

It's always great to have extra controllers at your fingertips.

Something smaller will often not have as good of an action as RD-2000 has.


By the way, if you want RD-2000 without most of the cool things like all the controllers, etc., but with added speakers, check out FP-90. Exactly the same keyboard action.


----------



## cola2410

All subjective and very personal:
Roland FP-90 - very good keybed, I would say neutral touch for most but... absolutely dull sounds. I think Roland is just a bit too deep with their supernatural/modeling etc, sounds unnatural (RD-700NX was way better)
Yamaha P-255 - good keybed, lighter touch thank Roland's, sounds more natural, liked the most and can't explain why
Nord Piano 3 - can't feel connected with keybed somehow, brilliant close-to-real resonating sounds, no speakers, the most expensive

I really feel that a versatile combination may work for a home piano, was thinking the other day I don't need a gig piano amp:
good keybed controller (A-88, other?)
decent laptop with Sampletekk and Pianoteq
stereo soundbar (suggestions anyone?)


----------



## CT

I've had the PX-5S for a few weeks now thanks to a generous friend, and I'm in love. I would recommend it to anyone. Silly as it may seem, a quality keyboard definitely affects the perceived quality of the sounds you're using it to play. And, I'm playing better than I have in years.


----------



## steveo42

So after trying all the usual suspects, I went with the RD-2000. My primary requirement was an excellent weighted action along with reliability and support. It was close between the MP-11SE and the Roland though. Oddly enough the built in sounds in the Roland tipped the scales. Plus I have had very good reliability from my previous Roland gear so that was a consideration. I am very happy with my purchase and after losing sleep over this decision I hope I won't have to do this again for a long time.


----------



## tmhuud

For anyone with the NI controller: is there quick access to the AHDSR envelope control?


----------



## EvilDragon

That depends on how a particular library had the controller pages mapped. It's not uniform across all the libraries (and first and foremost, the library needs to support NKS in the first place).


----------



## tmhuud

EvilDragon said:


> That depends on how a particular library had the controller pages mapped. It's not uniform across all the libraries (and first and foremost, the library needs to support NKS in the first place).


thanks. I thought as much. Cheers.


----------



## puremusic

steveo42 said:


> So after trying all the usual suspects, I went with the RD-2000. My primary requirement was an excellent weighted action along with reliability and support. It was close between the MP-11SE and the Roland though. Oddly enough the built in sounds in the Roland tipped the scales. Plus I have had very good reliability from my previous Roland gear so that was a consideration. I am very happy with my purchase and after losing sleep over this decision I hope I won't have to do this again for a long time.



Yes, I imagine you should be! Did you get to try the MP-11SE hands on?


----------



## steveo42

puremusic said:


> Yes, I imagine you should be! Did you get to try the MP-11SE hands on?



No I did not get to try the MP-11SE hands on. I did try the standard MP-11 as well as another console type piano that has the same action. The action was nice but to me the Roland's action felt "faster" under the fingers. I could easily adapt to the Kawai though. It would have been nice to hear the Shigeru Grand in the MP-11SE as well as try the newer pedal technology but I couldn't find any in the local stores. I think the rest of the included sounds are the same as the MP-11.I also tried an MP-7 and did not like the action.


----------



## dopamine

Thanks to EvilDragon and others for the answers and info on here. 
I've also decided to go with the RD2000 after trying out quite a few keyboards multiple times. I'll put forth a few thoughts in case it's helpful to anyone else in my situation- a pianist who is completely new to the digital/DAW world. 
I played both the MP11 and the MP11SE, the Roland RD2000, the FP90, the Nord Piano 3, the Korg Grand Stage briefly and a few other things along the way. 

MP11SE: I know keyboard action is subjective but strictly from a piano standpoint, for me, it had the best action- hands down. It is noticeably "weightier" and more deliberate than the RD2000 (or any other keyboard) and I perceived it to have a little more travel though that may not be true. If I just wanted a piano to practice on silently, this would be the keyboard. I think some of the other keyboards would not be great for piano technique over time. Also the keys themselves felt the nicest of any instrument I played. I liked the SE's new piano sounds over the RD2000 but wouldn't have much use for the other sounds. It is significantly heavier (20+ lbs) than the RD2000 as well as having a higher list price.

Roland RD2000: nice action and a good compromise. I think that even if Roland could put the Kawai MP11SE keyboard action into the RD2000, they would not. I think it is too single purpose (with its grand piano action) and would have been too heavy for using the RD2000 as a controller for other instruments. I took a USB thumb drive and recorded some sounds from the store and listened to them at home. Take my opinion with a grain of salt. I think the pianos sound good- not great. Some of the other orchestral sounds are good but some still sound synth-y. I don't know how much editing can change that but I will probably try out different VST's. The piano sounds are not bad at all though- this is nitpicking. As a beginner to this world, it was unclear to me how much I would use the onboard sounds which led me to check out the:

Roland FP90: same action, I believe. Marginally heavier by a couple of pounds than the RD2000. Built-in speakers, fewer sounds, less expensive. Someone else on here can answer this better than I, but it seems to serve less well as a midi controller as it has no pitch/mod wheels and fewer assignable controls (I think the center pedal can be made to control pitch bend?). It offers some things that that the RD2000 does not that might matter to others- bluetooth, and a mic jack so a singer can sing and play through the speakers. 

Nord Piano 3: I had read many opinions that the Nord's sampled piano sounds sounded much more organic and better than the Roland. I listened to them through poor monitors in a loud Guitar Center, but I do understand that opinion. However, I could not get over what I felt was a fairly clacky keyboard. I know people love them but it was not going to be a connected experience for me.

Played the Korg Grandstage briefly as it just didn't grab me. 

Ultimately, the Roland RD2000 did a lot of things well. The action is good and a good compromise, I believe it will serve well as a midi controller, and it offers a lot of sounds and other features. One complaint though- how can Roland not make some accomodation for an optional music stand?! I know it's technically a stage piano, but there is no way to directly attach a music stand that I know of. If anyone has any great solutions for this, I'd love to see/hear them. I think I am going to get the K&M Omega stand which has an optional attachment for an optional music stand. It's hard to tell, it may place the music stand a little further back than necessary. We'll see. I'm currently working out the details of buying (from where, price, etc).


----------



## puremusic

Two of the short faders on the FP-90 produce MIDI data, they have a nice smooth feel, I used them to substitute for the lack of a mod wheel before I picked up my fader board.

I picked up a white one with a nice white piano stand, looks great.


----------



## steveo42

The RD-200 pianos need a little tweaking to get them to perform. Super major improvements can be made with simple tweaks. There are a number of videos on Youtube giving examples.. Here is one:


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

For what it's worth, I picked up a NI S88 last week. I've only spent about 30 hours on it so far, but I absolutely love the Fatar keyboard.


----------



## chimuelo

EvilDragon said:


> Yeah, you should get over that trauma. PX-5S is a very VERY good board for the money, and weight of the whole unit is kinda amazing.



I have a PX-3S as a spare. It’s only a 2 zone MIDI Controller, with optional layers of internal sounds.
PX-5S is a true 4 zone controller.
Solid Acoustic Pianos and Electric Pianos.
It’s size price and controller capabilities are a great deal.

Like you I’m addicted to better, heavier Master MIDI Controllers.
I pack my Physis K4 4 times a week along with a rack.
Recently got some RCF TT08s with an 8” Fishman Sub.
A pair of SE-02s and a pair of TC VoiceRacks.

It does the work I got done just 15 years ago that required a four man crew.
I think we’ve come a long way and I’ll huff my gear every night as the sound is that rewarding.

Can’t do Chopin or Debussy as well as a real stage piano does, but Hot chicks don’t dance to Chopin.


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## dopamine

This is a month+ old, but if it's relevant to anyone, there is a firmware update for the rd2000: 7 new piano sounds and some other changes: 
https://www.rolandus.com/blog/2018/04/04/rd-2000-stage-piano-version-1-50-update/


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## 98bpm

I know this is a very old thread, but here's a very interesting blind shootout of some popular keyboards.


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## NeonMediaKJT

Hello,

Sorry to resurrect this thread. But I'm in need of some advice about weighted digital pianos when used as midi controllers.

I've just had to return a Yamaha P45 because when I had it connected to my PC via USB to use with my samples in my DAW, i found that the response was very limited in comparison to its response when used independently. I found I had to really slam the keys to get a high velocity. After researching it online, I found a few other people have the same experience.

Now, I'v noticed the Roland FP-10 has dropped in price quite significantly in a store in my area and it is actually one of the pianos I tested in the shop when I bought the Yamaha and I really loved the feel of it. 

Can anyone here vouch for the FP-10? Is it responsive when used as a midi controller? Other than a couple other Yamaha Pianos, the FP-10 is the only other Digital Piano in my budget.

Thanks!


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## Josh Richman

You have to set the velocity curves.


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## Daniel

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Hello,
> 
> Sorry to resurrect this thread. But I'm in need of some advice about weighted digital pianos when used as midi controllers.
> 
> I've just had to return a Yamaha P45 because when I had it connected to my PC via USB to use with my samples in my DAW, i found that the response was very limited in comparison to its response when used independently. I found I had to really slam the keys to get a high velocity. After researching it online, I found a few other people have the same experience.
> 
> Now, I'v noticed the Roland FP-10 has dropped in price quite significantly in a store in my area and it is actually one of the pianos I tested in the shop when I bought the Yamaha and I really loved the feel of it.
> 
> Can anyone here vouch for the FP-10? Is it responsive when used as a midi controller? Other than a couple other Yamaha Pianos, the FP-10 is the only other Digital Piano in my budget.
> 
> Thanks!



Never try FP-10, but I think the weighted keys is good. You can try Casio CDP S-150 (nice weighted keys action "Grand Piano synthetic keys"). About P45, it is really nice when you play piano plugins libraries. 
All three digital piano I mentioned are the same level price.


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