# I spend 8 hours on only eight tracks, is this normal?



## HarmonyCore (Mar 23, 2020)

Dear all,

I feel my workflow is very slow. I spend many hours in few tracks doing tons of editing and re-editing when the song timing is out of sync. My problem is whenever I record a new track over the same tempo, it became out of sync with other tracks. Maybe I don't fully understand how quantization really works. Most of the time I use the 1/16. However, I can't use 1/16 with strings ostinato as they will sound out of sync. When I move the ruler, let's say on bar 43 and hit play, I get out of sync tempo despite I recorded each track right on the same tempo. I always have to move the ruler way way back at the beginning of bar 1. 

Bottom line ... I am ridiculously spending too much time finishing a song. By this way, a single song can be finished in 4 days. Doesn't make any sense.

How can I improve my workflow?

*Note:* Templates are nice in saving time picking up the type of instruments that I am going to use along with their mixing/effects settings, but they don't solve the above problem, of course.


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## d.healey (Mar 23, 2020)

*- I spend 8 hours on only eight tracks, is this normal?*

It's not normal for me. I've spent up to 10 years on one track.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 23, 2020)

d.healey said:


> *- I spend 8 hours on only eight tracks, is this normal?*
> 
> It's not normal for me. I've spent up to 10 years on one track.



By the way, I mean DAW tracks, not a track (a song). Oh Lord !! 10 years on one song you mean? How is that? I am very curious to know.


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## Polkasound (Mar 23, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> Bottom line ... I am ridiculously spending too much time finishing a song. By this way, a single song can be finished in 4 days. Doesn't make any sense.



Compared to me, you're The Flash. My albums typically take 300-400 hours to produce from start to finish, and most of that time is spent editing recorded tracks. But I should inform you that I do not work on a deadline, so I have the luxury of being able to spend unlimited time on my tracks, which I do. Most of that time is spent adjusting the timing, duration, velocity of each individual note on a note-by-note basis, as well as hand-drawing the MIDI CC data over and over until it sounds right.


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## d.healey (Mar 23, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> 10 years on one song you mean? How is that? I am very curious to know.


When I get to a point and I don't know how to continue I move on to other projects. But I occasionally go back to old projects when I get a new idea. I have many uncompleted projects that are at least 10 years old


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 23, 2020)

Polkasound said:


> Compared to me, you're The Flash. My albums typically take 300-400 hours to produce from start to finish, and most of that time is spent editing recorded tracks. But I should inform you that I do not work on a deadline, so I have the luxury of being able to spend unlimited time on my tracks, which I do. Most of that time is spent adjusting the timing, duration, velocity of each individual note on a note-by-note basis, as well as hand-drawing the MIDI CC data over and over until it sounds right.



I don't have deadlines too but I get a back pain from sitting too long. I am just trying my best to finish a full orchestral piece in one day. Am I dreaming?


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 23, 2020)

d.healey said:


> When I get to a point and I don't know how to continue I move on to other projects. But I occasionally go back to old projects when I get a new idea. I have many uncompleted projects that are at least 10 years old



This is actually relaxing me as I am not alone in this. I thought I was spending too much. I keep seeing people saying that they finish 6 songs a day. Probably they work on EDM or some techno music that can be done fast. Orchestral pieces take looooong time, baby.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 23, 2020)

I think that's why someone like Zimmer has a deadline of a year or two since a single movie is produced in this period.


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## d.healey (Mar 23, 2020)

Zimmer is an expert at what he does, and he has a team to assist him. So don't compare your rate of work to his, it's not a fair comparison.

Holst took two years to compose and orchestrate The Planets. That man was quick!


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## sIR dORT (Mar 23, 2020)

I think a lot of us (maybe most) feel that we compose slower than a snail, but the reality is we really don't (I think). I spent an hour and a half on three tutti chords a couple of days ago and honestly was not super pleased with the result (for reference, I've written a 2 minute song in that same amount of time with mostly OA chamber evos and spitfire felt piano - goes to show how time spent on any given song varies with the style you're composing in), but that's midi composition with modern virtual orchestras today.


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## storyteller (Mar 23, 2020)

Don't worry about how much time it takes you. Conceptualizing and perfecting any art takes time. Now, if you are getting paid to do work on a deadline, you will need a way to "cut corners" or "improve efficiency," but that just comes with experience and a great deal of time spent working slowly to hone your craft.


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## Polkasound (Mar 23, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> I am just trying my best to finish a full orchestral piece in one day. Am I dreaming?



When I was a teenager, I was inspired by Bill Alexander, and later Bob Ross, to paint landscapes in oil. In the beginning, I felt discouraged because I couldn't complete an entire painting in 30 minutes like they did on TV. I thought it was some sort of professional benchmark to achieve. Eventually I discovered that the 30 minutes allotted for the TV shows, and the time it took to create a really good painting, were completely unrelated. When they weren't on TV, both Bill and Bob would spend hours and hours creating a single painting, just like me.

Over the course of time through experience and repetition, I naturally started getting results a little more quickly, but decreasing painting time was not a goal; I wasn't painting for a PBS show. I continued spending as much time as I needed to get the results I wanted, and that's exactly how I approach creating music today.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 23, 2020)

Nice to hear that I am not abnormal.


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## Robert_G (Mar 23, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> I don't have deadlines too but I get a back pain from sitting too long. I am just trying my best to finish a full orchestral piece in one day. Am I dreaming?



I finish a 3 minute song in 30-80 hours from start to finish....depending on a number of things. No one finishes a full orchestral song in a day.

Commercials and trailer music is different though. You can finish a 30 second commercial or movie trailer on your lunch break. Lyrical music and orchestra however.... take actual time


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## Robert_G (Mar 23, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> but I get a back pain from sitting too long.



Yup....me too. You should read this thread...its a quick read






Sit/Stand setups for bad backs like mine


Most physios including mine says i should limit sitting at my DAW to 30 mins at a time followed by a 5 minute stretch/stand/walk combo. Thing is....i get focused on what im doing and 90 mins goes by and then im sore for 2 days. Does anyone have a workstation that can be used in a combo of...




vi-control.net


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 23, 2020)

Robert_G said:


> Yup....me too. You should read this thread...its a quick read
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am reading this now 
Sorry to hear that ... Back pain is my main enemy now, not Corona.


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## David Kudell (Mar 23, 2020)

I’m slow too, luckily I’m just a hobbyist. 

I’ve improved a bit by just trying to practice every day - and write 30seconds of music per day. This forces me to not be so perfectionist and just come up with little themes that become a library of stuff for later. I make sure to bounce these 30sec pieces so I can listen to them and feel a sense of accomplishment.

You want to just get ideas down and let the creativity flow - don’t get bogged down by trying to make timing perfect or every note perfect. You can go back and do that later.

Also, I saw a good tip somewhere that said write horizontally instead of vertically. Meaning don’t spend hours trying to layer countless instruments in a short passage....get the framework down first. That keeps you moving and also keeps your song from sounding like a muddy mess with too much layered.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 23, 2020)

Robert_G said:


> Yup....me too. You should read this thread...its a quick read
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But I guess the VIVO desk that you bought is not actually meant for the MIDI keyboard. Its sliding drawer hosts just a computer keyboard. I thought of this idea before is to buy a new standing desk but all the models here are of low quality and easy to be broken. Every 30 mins is a nightmare when you focus on what you're doing. I also forget about myself completely especially when I edit. Hours pass like wind and lower back pain builds up. Luckily, I get this pain every 2 hours so I unconsciously get up and go for a smoke then do some stretching.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 23, 2020)

David Kudell said:


> Also, I saw a good tip somewhere that said write horizontally instead of vertically. Meaning don’t spend hours trying to layer countless instruments in a short passage....get the framework down first.



Good tip. I am actually writing vertically all the time. When I am done with the intro and the main melody (horizontally), I start to add instruments and build the suspense gradually. I think vertically is the way of sounding as an orchestra. Most courses in Groove3 use the vertical approach. Someone have told me to record all instruments then later edit them but he turned out to be wrong and he admitted that. I have to edit after each record to make sure the timing is working fine and to continue adding instruments without losing control over the timing. Take Heavyocity Damage as an example, It took me a whole hour to align a percussion loop with other instruments on 160 bpm. Most of the time the loop races the other instruments.



David Kudell said:


> That keeps you moving and also keeps your song from sounding like a muddy mess with too much layered.



The bad news is that epic orchestral pieces must have at least 15 instrument tracks, if not 24, including of course modern synths, guitars, even rock drums. The good news is that I have a powerful laptop.


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## dzilizzi (Mar 23, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> I don't have deadlines too but I get a back pain from sitting too long. I am just trying my best to finish a full orchestral piece in one day. Am I dreaming?


Yes. I don't think anyone can do a full orchestral piece in a day. Too many instruments to make work together. Then getting the reverb right. It is a lot of work

But, there are many that can do a cue in less time.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 23, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> Yes. I don't think anyone can do a full orchestral piece in a day. Too many instruments to make work together. Then getting the reverb right. It is a lot of work
> 
> But, there are many that can do a cue in less time.




I know that guy. I watched many of his vids. Hilarious !!!!


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## Robert_G (Mar 23, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> But I guess the VIVO desk that you bought is not actually meant for the MIDI keyboard. Its sliding drawer hosts just a computer keyboard. I thought of this idea before is to buy a new standing desk but all the models here are of low quality and easy to be broken. Every 30 mins is a nightmare when you focus on what you're doing. I also forget about myself completely especially when I edit. Hours pass like wind and lower back pain builds up. Luckily, I get this pain every 2 hours so I unconsciously get up and go for a smoke then do some stretching.



I raise the desk for programming time. My full size Roland 88key Digital Piano is always at proper playing height...same with the midi keyboard. I just can't play either for too long at a time. The sit stand desk holds the monitors and the mouse/keyboard....that's it. So I sit to play.....stand to program. I just have to be careful to not lose focus and keep playing for more than an hour at absolute most.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 23, 2020)

Robert_G said:


> I raise the desk for programming time. My full size Roland 88key Digital Piano is always at proper playing height...same with the midi keyboard. I just can't play either for too long at a time. The sit stand desk holds the monitors and the mouse/keyboard....that's it. So I sit to play.....stand to program. I just have to be careful to not lose focus and keep playing for more than an hour at absolute most.



Wish you the best, man.


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## Robert_G (Mar 24, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> Wish you the best, man.



Um.....I wasnt looking for sympathy....I actually manage pretty good....even better since I got the sit stand desk....but thanks


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## Polkasound (Mar 24, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> I keep seeing people saying that they finish 6 songs a day. Probably they work on EDM or some techno music that can be done fast.



The most popular way to create EDM is by piecing loops together. There are gazillions of bedroom producers all over the world stamping out songs this way.



Robert_G said:


> I finish a 3 minute song in 30-80 hours from start to finish....depending on a number of things.



This is also the time frame it takes me to produce a non-orchestral song from start to finish. I think the most time I ever spent producing a single song was 90 hours.


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## SebastianWinter (Mar 24, 2020)

i would kill for a workflow as fast as the OP. I've been working on a 5 minute string quartet since bloody November. Tweak tweak tweak, swap out library, tweak tweak tweak, swap out library.

BTW- everyone who says it's VERY difficult to get realistic quartet mockups isn't lying.


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## d.healey (Mar 24, 2020)

SebastianWinter said:


> Tweak tweak tweak, swap out library, tweak tweak tweak, swap out library.


This is where you're going wrong. I bet for the cost of those libraries you could have hired 4 musicians to record your piece.


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## Robert_G (Mar 24, 2020)

d.healey said:


> This is where you're going wrong. I bet for the cost of those libraries you could have hired 4 musicians to record your piece.



That's not how the tweaking works. Even if 4 musicians play the piece for you....you might hear them play it and then not like parts of your own composition and then you have to tweak the composition....then they play it again....then you tweak it again....and so on and so on. They charge by the hour. It would get expensive and then you'd have the musicians sitting there staring at you while you tweak your composition.


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## José Herring (Mar 24, 2020)

d.healey said:


> This is where you're going wrong. I bet for the cost of those libraries you could have hired 4 musicians to record your piece.


Thank you!!! Finally somebody said this besides me. This kind of comment is usually met with a torrent of scorn around here, but seriously why would anybody spend weeks tweeking a string quartet. Just write it and hire the best students from your local university and record it in you living room. The results will be far more satisfying and samples won't be able to capture the interaction of a string quartet.


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## José Herring (Mar 24, 2020)

Robert_G said:


> That's not how the tweaking works. Even if 4 musicians play the piece for you....you might hear them play it and then not like parts of your own composition and then you have to tweak the composition....then they play it again....then you tweak it again....and so on and so on. They charge by the hour. It would get expensive and then you'd have the musicians sitting there staring at you while you tweak your composition.


That's exactly how it works in the real world. 

Sure mock it up so you can hear what you have then replace those samples with the real deal. Even if you continue to change things on the spot. It's call commitment, foresight, knowing what to expect, it's the way that composers have done it for centuries. Hear it in your mind first, play it on a keyboard, then mock it up, refine it to a done, then get the real deal, then rehearse and tweek the performance then record that shit.


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## Robert_G (Mar 24, 2020)

josejherring said:


> That's exactly how it works in the real world.
> 
> Sure mock it up so you can hear what you have then replace those samples with the real deal. Even if you continue to change things on the spot. It's call commitment, foresight, knowing what to expect, it's the way that composers have done it for centuries. Hear it in your mind first, play it on a keyboard, then mock it up, refine it to a done, then get the real deal, then rehearse and tweek the performance then record that shit.



You just helped me to realize that I probably don't ever want to do live recordings with real paid musicians. That would be stressful.
I'd rather get my mockup as perfect as possible and then spit the score out....let the live musicians play it and have it recorded....but I'd never want to have live musicians around while I'm in the composing phase. That's all I'm really saying.


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## José Herring (Mar 24, 2020)

Robert_G said:


> You just helped me to realize that I probably don't ever want to do live recordings with real paid musicians. That would be stressful.
> I'd rather get my mockup as perfect as possible and then spit the score out....let the live musicians play it and have it recorded....but I'd never want to have live musicians around while I'm in the composing phase. That's all I'm really saying.


It's the only way to learn how your music will sound with a real ensemble.

When I started out back in the stone ages ('93) there wasn't a lot of good samples. Many times I would just write things out at the piano and write the parts by hand and hand it to the copyist or to my friends, or play it myself, ect... You will get some nasty surprises but then you'll get some pleasant surprises and you'll also get some feedback on instrumentation from people that actually know how to play well the instruments you are writing for. In the end, the experience is invaluable.

But I hear what you're saying. I had the exact opposite problem of you. I hear the real thing in my head and all that it could do then I'd try to do that with samples and "ouch!". What a pain in the ass. It's taken me about 15 years of working with samples to get about 1/2 of what I hear in my head to sound decent but now with better and more varied samples it's getting better. But, what I would never attempt to do is try and do a convincing string quartet. I think that Rob (different Rob) did one. Sounded good. Mock up of Ravel I think, but he's a rare breed.


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## d.healey (Mar 24, 2020)

Robert_G said:


> I'd never want to have live musicians around while I'm in the composing phase. That's all I'm really saying.


Making adjustments for balance on the stand is not the composing phase. It's the recording phase. You can compose with a piano, a pencil and paper, and have it come out pretty good on the first take. Then you adjust for balance and emotion with the musicians. You might make some other minor tweaks but unless someone you're working for is unhappy with the result there shouldn't really be any re-composing at this point.


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## Robert_G (Mar 24, 2020)

josejherring said:


> But, what I would never attempt to do is try and do a convincing string quartet. I think that Rob G. (different Rob G.) did one. Sounded good. Mock up of Ravel I think, but he's a rare breed.



I think in the context of a string quartet, I'd have to agree with you. The CSSS demo is pretty good...but even that......
The string quartet is so exposed that...yeah....not sure I'd attempt it...maybe one day when I want to embarrass myself.


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## Robert_G (Mar 24, 2020)

d.healey said:


> Making adjustments for balance on the stand is not the composing phase. It's the recording phase. You can compose with a piano, a pencil and paper, and have it come out pretty good on the first take. Then you adjust for balance and emotion with the musicians. You might make some other minor tweaks but unless someone you're working for is unhappy with the result there shouldn't really be any re-composing at this point.



That makes sense....and I don't claim to be a pro at this.....I probably got caught up in imagining the stress of dealing with live players. Not something I've ever done....and feel totally inadequate to do.


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## dzilizzi (Mar 24, 2020)

josejherring said:


> Thank you!!! Finally somebody said this besides me. This kind of comment is usually met with a torrent of scorn around here, but seriously why would anybody spend weeks tweeking a string quartet. Just write it and hire the best students from your local university and record it in you living room. The results will be far more satisfying and samples won't be able to capture the interaction of a string quartet.


The problem with that is you have to have written sheet music. That will take 300 hours right there LOL!


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## d.healey (Mar 24, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> The problem with that is you have to have written sheet music. That will take 300 hours right there LOL!


It depends on your process. I usually start with the sheet music for composition/orchestration and move to the DAW for performance.


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## dzilizzi (Mar 24, 2020)

d.healey said:


> It depends on your process. I usually start with the sheet music for composition/orchestration and move to the DAW for performance.


Mostly I'm talking myself. And most of that is trying to figure out how to get that stupid note to be a quarter and not a half. And why did they put a rest there? There's not supposed to be a rest there. Wait! I wanted to move that note, not create another one! Where did all these extra notes come from????? AAAGGGHHHH!!

I can play the keyboard, but not usually well enough for recording purposes - whether to midi or notation of some kind.


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## José Herring (Mar 24, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> The problem with that is you have to have written sheet music. That will take 300 hours right there LOL!


I take to sheet music like a duck takes to water. For my wedding I did a string quartet arrangement of Stravinsky's Pucinella suite from the violin+piano version. I did it one afternoon while watching tv. I just can hear shit in my head and arrange it on paper. But, don't even get me started on reading a piano roll. Now that shit is hard


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## d.healey (Mar 24, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> I can play the keyboard, but not usually well enough for recording purposes - whether to midi or notation of some kind.


I'm the same. Pencil + paper, or Musescore + qwerty keyboard get around my lack of musicianship. No substitute when it comes to the performance side though, I just have to re-record until I get it right.


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## dzilizzi (Mar 24, 2020)

d.healey said:


> I'm the same. Pencil + paper, or Musescore + qwerty keyboard get around my lack of musicianship. No substitute when it comes to the performance side though, I just have to re-record until I get it right.


I draw. I am so much faster with a mouse.


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## Montisquirrel (Mar 25, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> Probably they work on EDM or some techno music that can be done fast. Orchestral pieces take looooong time, baby.



And again, someone in this forum who is talking about something he has no clue of.



Polkasound said:


> The most popular way to create EDM is by piecing loops together. There are gazillions of bedroom producers all over the world stamping out songs this way.



There are also composers who only work with orchestral loops and phrases. Or only make mockups of other composers music.

Once again in this forum we have this "orchestral music is the hardest of all music. Lets look down to the gazillions of producers who are actually not making music" attitude. 

Sorry for offtopic, it just annoys me.


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## Richard Wilkinson (Mar 25, 2020)

It feels like lots of people have given useful answers here, but the OP question seems like more of a technical thing to do with sync and tempo - 



HarmonyCore said:


> I spend many hours in few tracks doing tons of editing and re-editing when the song timing is out of sync. My problem is whenever I record a new track over the same tempo, it became out of sync with other tracks. Maybe I don't fully understand how quantization really works. Most of the time I use the 1/16. However, I can't use 1/16 with strings ostinato as they will sound out of sync. When I move the ruler, let's say on bar 43 and hit play, I get out of sync tempo despite I recorded each track right on the same tempo. I always have to move the ruler way way back at the beginning of bar 1.



Do you have an example of what you're trying to do and where it's going wrong? If you're playing or step-entering parts at the correct tempo, to the click, there should be no need to do _any_ editing to fix the timing afterwards. Sounds like something is going wrong with the way you're entering the notes.


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## dzilizzi (Mar 25, 2020)

Richard Wilkinson said:


> It feels like lots of people have given useful answers here, but the OP question seems like more of a technical thing to do with sync and tempo -
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have an example of what you're trying to do and where it's going wrong? If you're playing or step-entering parts at the correct tempo, to the click, there should be no need to do _any_ editing to fix the timing afterwards. Sounds like something is going wrong with the way you're entering the notes.


This is true. Sounds like a latency issue.


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## Polkasound (Mar 25, 2020)

Montsquirrel, of course what you said is true.


Montisquirrel said:


> Once again in this forum we have this "orchestral music is the hardest of all music. Lets look down to the gazillions of producers who are actually not making music" attitude.



I think you inadvertently got the wrong impression from my comment. I'm not an orchestral composer, so I am not biased for or against orchestral composers vs. EDM composers. I simply stated a fact about one popular method of EDM composition so that the OP would understand that he doesn't need to compete with people who knock out multiple songs in a day. Naturally that extends to all styles of music, from EDM to orchestral to polka. I apologize if you thought I was disrespecting non-orchestral music production.


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## Zero&One (Mar 25, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> I keep seeing people saying that they finish 6 songs a day. Probably they work on EDM or some techno music that can be done fast. Orchestral pieces take looooong time, baby.



I’ve worked on EDM drums for days and similar with just a single bass line. 
Good songs irrelevant of the genre take time.


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## Polkasound (Mar 25, 2020)

Zero&One said:


> I’ve worked on EDM drums for days and similar with just a single bass line.
> Good songs irrelevant of the genre take time.



I agree with this 100%. I don't use loops or construction kits. The pop track I recorded last year took me 90 hours to produce.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 25, 2020)

Richard Wilkinson said:


> It feels like lots of people have given useful answers here, but the OP question seems like more of a technical thing to do with sync and tempo -
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have an example of what you're trying to do and where it's going wrong? If you're playing or step-entering parts at the correct tempo, to the click, there should be no need to do _any_ editing to fix the timing afterwards. Sounds like something is going wrong with the way you're entering the notes.



Yes, I just today found out that I am not zooming much in the key editor to exactly align notes on their respective grids. I solved my problem. I am just new to Cubase 10.5  but thx for taking the time trying to help me.


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## SebastianWinter (Mar 27, 2020)

d.healey said:


> This is where you're going wrong. I bet for the cost of those libraries you could have hired 4 musicians to record your piece.



Yes but this is VI-Control.net not LiveMusician-Control.net.


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## Uiroo (Mar 27, 2020)

Montisquirrel said:


> And again, someone in this forum who is talking about something he has no clue of.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe he does, maybe he has done both.

I've done some EDM stuff that I'm really proud of, but I don't find it as labour intensive as orchestral programming. But it's definitely not easier.

You can get lost in details for ages with both, obviously.


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## ProfoundSilence (Mar 27, 2020)

Montisquirrel said:


> And again, someone in this forum who is talking about something he has no clue of.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


it could also be from experience. 


Having samples of an orchestra doesnt make an orchestral piece of music.

consider the middle ground here, you also have people who pull up whatever spitfire evo/"lovely keyboard patch" library - throw some chords in as pads - maybe a rhythmic pulse ect - and call it orchestral. Loading up a full strings patch and playing stuff and then throwing a horn legato patch on top with some percussion isn't really an orchestral piece either. Those kinds of pieces are written almost in the same format as EDM, just replacing pads with strings - arps are ostinatos in the first place, just using a spiccato patch instead of a pluck or stab. - instead of a saw lead/ect they are using 12 horns. 


Music written in a format that is actually arranged and playable by an orchestra is really quite rare, even on these forums - and it simply takes a lot more time to put together. If you spend a billion years on 1 synth patch, there is no reason... many synth patches can be made to fill that role in a fraction of the time, unlike orchestral music, where there are no shortcuts. These are shortcuts that have absolutely NOTHING to do with writing, even if you know exactly what you're making it takes a lot longer to program anything authentic. 

No shade to any of these genres, I listen to black metal - which is fall off a log easy to make, easy to write, easy to record. You could spend 4 years on a black metal EP but you could also write an entire album in 24 hours without breaking a sweat if that was your goal. 

If you got the notation for something like "and action" from the OT berlin brass demo, it would take you obscenely longer than the latest hit from deadmau5's label. Especially since EDM you get sounding "correct" in the mixing and mastering stages, while orchestral music you need to have the balance/levels correct ahead of time. arguably, very few edm elementals(tonal or not) even HAVE dynamics, let alone fine tuning mod wheel/velocities for every element constantly. Sorry if this strikes a sour spot for you - but the reality is that people interested in making virtual orchestral pieces need to understand that it's NOT like writing edm, not to expect a massive amount of product to get produced in a short period of time. Also important that people know that big time composers have assistants, or in the case of zimmer, a small army haha.

Even williams himself made a living being an orchestrator for composers prior to getting the gig himself. This isn't new, but really glossed over, and in the case of virtual instruments, extremely misleading with tons of misinformation.


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## El Buhdai (Mar 28, 2020)

I've composed a 2-minute piece for a mostly full orchestra in about 5 hours, but that isn't really something to aspire to necessarily.

I've also spent 600 hours spread across almost 3 years on a project that only contained 15 minutes of music.

All I'm concerned about is the end result. I don't care if it takes 5 hours or 500 hours to get there. I'm mostly a hobbyist though.


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## El Buhdai (Mar 28, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> If you got the notation for something like "and action" from the OT berlin brass demo, it would take you obscenely longer than the latest hit from deadmau5's label. Especially since EDM you get sounding "correct" in the mixing and mastering stages, while orchestral music you need to have the balance/levels correct ahead of time. arguably, very few edm elementals(tonal or not) even HAVE dynamics, let alone fine tuning mod wheel/velocities for every element constantly. Sorry if this strikes a sour spot for you - but the reality is that people interested in making virtual orchestral pieces need to understand that it's NOT like writing edm, not to expect a massive amount of product to get produced in a short period of time. Also important that people know that big time composers have assistants, or in the case of zimmer, a small army haha.



Yeah I understand Montisquirrel's impulse to snuff out genre elitism as it is incredibly prevalent among people who write for orchestral instruments, but I think he jumped the gun here. I don't think OP meant it that way. And you're right, the reality is, VI-Composing for orchestral music _is_ probably the more difficult type of music to write in a DAW. I'll take it a step further and say that aside from something like Black MIDI, it's probably the _most_ difficult kind of music to write in a DAW.

In addition to the enormous time sink of MIDI CC that you mentioned in this message, there's the insane barrier to entry as well. Most of us have multi-monitor setups running from monster workstations that contain thousands upon thousands of dollars of hardware (and some of us have entire separate desktops working as slave machines for our main workhorse), and almost every time I watch an interview or a walkthrough with a famous musician from another genre, they're showing us their process on a Macbook. Mobile production is something I can only dream of because the hardware requirements are ridiculous.

Then once you get your monster PC, you still have to learn most of the same stuff classically-trained musicians have to learn if you hope to make anything worth paying attention to. On top of that, you need to nail the production aspect of it as well, and I don't have to tell anyone here how much work it takes to mix dozens of minutes of orchestral music spread across over 100 different tracks.

Orchestral music probably IS the most rigorous, but that doesn't make us better than other musicians. I have a whole lot of admiration for anyone who knows their way around a synthesizer as sound design is still magic to me. I'm fascinated by EDM and Dubstep producers because I don't even know where to start to learn to do what they do. Even something seemingly "simple" like making beats (which I used to do) requires you to have your ear to the ground and keep your sound in line with what's current, which is something many of us can't even manage as VI-Composers. We _shouldn't_ be elitist against our fellow musicians because their skills also take thousands of hours to build, but we also shouldn't deny reality.


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## ProfoundSilence (Mar 28, 2020)

I'm envious personally. I literally didn't care a few years ago until I got more and more into orchestration as technology improved. 

I used to just like picking the right notes and cool sounds to make them.

I also experimented with electronic music out of curiosity and I've found how interesting and almost parallel the thinking is when it comes to planning orchestral texture and designing a synth. Dubstep was even more focused on creating a new and interesting *texture* than most melody based forms of electronic music before it. I believe there is something to learn from any genre of music


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## Montisquirrel (Mar 28, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> it could also be from experience.
> 
> 
> Having samples of an orchestra doesnt make an orchestral piece of music.
> ...



Thank you for the detailed post. The reason why I posted my post in the first place was because words/ideoms like EDM are just thrown into the discussion without any definition. For me it is not easy to understand EDM as an Genre, because its meaning is Electronic Dance Music. I guess most people think about music like Martin Garrix or Avicci or Deadmou5e. btw...I can't listen to these EDM artist I just mentioned, it bores me to death. It is in no way a sour spot for me. I just dont like if people generalize, thats why I posted  I agree that compared to some Beethoven these songs are kind of "simple", but on the other hand they make millions of people dance and touch them in a way. 

I am also not sure if "orchestral music" is a genre by definition. So for me a track with orchestral instruments like violins and horns and flutes is orchestral music. Doesnt matter if it follows a typical EDM / Pop-Song structre or not. But in the end, it doesn't matter. A piece of music with just 2 orchestral instruments + easy chord progression + pop music structre can maybe touch me much more than a piece with 150 instrument tracks and 133 different chords but no soul.

I don't want to be a smart ass and I agree that many composers write music with orchestral instruments in a EDM / Pop Structure. Is it bad? Doesnt have to. But it is boring most times

It is also not easy to answer a question like the OP without listening to the actual music.
8 tracks in 8 hours with orchestral music can be too long.
8 tracks in 8 hours with orchestral music can very fast.
8 tracks in 8 hours with "Genre X" can be too long.
8 tracks in 8 hours with "Genre X" can be very fast.


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## ProfoundSilence (Mar 28, 2020)

orchestral music is a genre by definition

its music for an orchestra.

it's really not about the value of edm or any genre for that matter. simply reality that one is drastically more time consuming to create with virtual instruments.

time wise, JW could shit out 5 minutes of orchestral music on 4 staves(all parts are written and notated. just in a short hand manner) much faster than avicii(rip) could produce a 5 minute track, so it's not the writing or complexity in writing/knowledge/ect -- its literally a major time sink just to program a believable interpretation of something written for an actual orchestra.

that's why I gave the example or having the score and just trying to program it still takes a lot longer. It's really not an attack on the genre, its creators, or anything. 

it's literally just vastly more time consuming to "mock up".


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## GtrString (Mar 28, 2020)

One track a day keeps procrastination away. 

Thats my bare minimum rule. If I can do one solid track in a day, Im ok, 3-4 tracks is great. 8 tracks in two days is very good afik. Sometimes I can do more, but 8 tracks in one day is exceptional, if they are good (they cant all be at that pace!). 

Its rare I reach those numbers in one day on anything but my main instrument (live guitars, which is more immediate to do than vi’s and programming, which is far slower to work with for me).


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## Montisquirrel (Mar 28, 2020)

GtrString said:


> One track a day keeps procrastination away.
> 
> Thats my bare minimum rule. If I can do one solid track in a day, Im ok, 3-4 tracks is great. 8 tracks in two days is very good afik. Sometimes I can do more, but 8 tracks in one day is exceptional, if they are good (they cant all be at that pace!).
> 
> Its rare I reach those numbers in one day on anything but my main instrument (live guitars, which is more immediate to do than vi’s and programming, which is far slower to work with for me).



I think the OP is talking about "instrument tracks" in a DAW, not finished songs.


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## Zedcars (Mar 28, 2020)

d.healey said:


> *- I spend 8 hours on only eight tracks, is this normal?*
> 
> It's not normal for me. I've spent up to 10 years on one track.


I spent 23 years on one piece.

I feel your pain.


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## GtrString (Mar 28, 2020)

Montisquirrel said:


> I think the OP is talking about "instrument tracks" in a DAW, not finished songs.



Yes, so am I.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 28, 2020)

Montisquirrel said:


> And again, someone in this forum who is talking about something he has no clue of.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Every genre has its own difficulty level. I didn't mean at all that EDM is easier than orchestral but definitely orchestral is harder than EDM. That's what I meant. If EDM takes x time to finish, orchestral takes x^4 time to finish. EDM is like catching a big fish, whereas orchestral is like catching a whale.

Hope you got my point.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 28, 2020)

GtrString said:


> One track a day keeps procrastination away.
> 
> Thats my bare minimum rule. If I can do one solid track in a day, Im ok, 3-4 tracks is great. 8 tracks in two days is very good afik. Sometimes I can do more, but 8 tracks in one day is exceptional, if they are good (they cant all be at that pace!).
> 
> Its rare I reach those numbers in one day on anything but my main instrument (live guitars, which is more immediate to do than vi’s and programming, which is far slower to work with for me).



I mean 8 instrument tracks in a DAW, not 8 songs. What is so exceptional about finishing 8 instruments tracks in a day? ... In fact, I didn't completely finish them as they still need lots of revisits. What if I tell you that I am completely a noob in orchestral arrangement?

Hold on guys, let me upload the piece that I am talking about.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 28, 2020)

Montisquirrel said:


> Thank you for the detailed post. The reason why I posted my post in the first place was because words/ideoms like EDM are just thrown into the discussion without any definition. For me it is not easy to understand EDM as an Genre, because its meaning is Electronic Dance Music. I guess most people think about music like Martin Garrix or Avicci or Deadmou5e. btw...I can't listen to these EDM artist I just mentioned, it bores me to death. It is in no way a sour spot for me. I just dont like if people generalize, thats why I posted  I agree that compared to some Beethoven these songs are kind of "simple", but on the other hand they make millions of people dance and touch them in a way.
> 
> I am also not sure if "orchestral music" is a genre by definition. So for me a track with orchestral instruments like violins and horns and flutes is orchestral music. Doesnt matter if it follows a typical EDM / Pop-Song structre or not. But in the end, it doesn't matter. A piece of music with just 2 orchestral instruments + easy chord progression + pop music structre can maybe touch me much more than a piece with 150 instrument tracks and 133 different chords but no soul.
> 
> ...



Montisquirrel,BTW, my music is not solely based on pure orchestra but hybrid epic orchestra.


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## HarmonyCore (Mar 28, 2020)

Montisquirrel said:


> It is also not easy to answer a question like the OP without listening to the actual music.



Here they are .... 
And please don't laugh, NOOB here, still working out !!! 
No mixing yet, No chord progressions, just a melody idea covered with organ synth tune and other synth elements followed by some orchestral action, nothing special. Still a fresh idea needs to be more organised.

The same applies to the trailer.

Couldn't upload the epic demo in MP4, so I MP3'ed it. 

This is just my 15th day in epic orchestral arranging.


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