# I Think Kirk Hunter Might Have a Winner Here (Front Row Violins)



## robgb (Mar 27, 2018)




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## ghandizilla (Mar 27, 2018)

I'm not fond of the sound but I *so* do like the versatility of it. There are also Chris Hein's Ensemble Strings which are on the same "building section" concept. So, given I needed this (which is not the case for now), I would personally wait and compare both before buying anything. And if you're *very* patient, you can also make SWAM based ensembles.

Nevertheless, there are ideas unique to the Kirk Hunter product: the instant vibrato, the intelligent bowing, and the auto-divisi thing.

But one thing puzzles me: there are developers going to the "performance" direction, which is recording the musicians actually performing music to get better expressivity and so a greater sense of realism. The drawback being: you have to get several libraries to cover different styles.

We're here confronted to the exactly opposite philosophy: the "one library to do everything" concept. I actually wonder if it's possible to make your samples breath and live with this concept (it's a genuine question, not a judgement).


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## robgb (Mar 27, 2018)

ghandizilla said:


> We're here confronted to the exactly opposite philosophy: the "one library to do everything" concept. I actually wonder if it's possible to make your samples breath and live with this concept (it's a genuine question, not a judgement).


One of the reasons I love the SWAM instruments is because of their expressivity and playability, and it looks as if KH is going for a sample-based version of that. As for libraries that are "performance" based, I'm not convinced this isn't a marketing ploy to convince us to spend more money, but will reserve judgment at this point. I think the baked-in room sound that developers have been promoting for several years now—Spitfire being the most obvious—was also a kind of a marketing ploy, and it worked. Too many of us want easy, out of the box simplicity that takes away control of the sound. With performance based instruments, it would seem that you're sacrificing more control and giving it over to the performer. And some may be happy to do that.


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## ghandizilla (Mar 27, 2018)

I find this subject very interesting 

Can we really put all these kind of instruments in the same basket?

Physically modeled instruments are rewarding on the long run, the philosophy being: you're the performer.

On the opposite, sample-based instruments are rewarding on the short run, the philosophy being: you already get a recorded performance. (I'd add: instruments with very wet rooms are rewarding on even shorter notice but it's such a pain in the *ss to get them working with other instruments, and it's very profitable, since by locking your user on a room, you lock your user on your products !)

In the end I don't believe that versatility-wise physically modeled and sample-based instruments can be put as equivalent.

Regarding the whole room thing, I'd like to nuance a bit what I just wrote. Yes, it may be for the hype on some room, but on some other rooms, the space changes the sound so dramatically that the space itself can be considered as an instrument worth being used. I believe it was the main reason Hans Zimmer started the whole sampling thing: so he could keep different spaces at his disposable even when not being there. It was, for sure, the philosophy behind the Hans Zimmer Piano. In this case, be sure that the product would be aimed for composers with strong mixing ability. So, I believe there are two sides to this story (in my opinion).


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## erica-grace (Mar 27, 2018)

Isnt this what DVZ strings was?


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## robgb (Mar 27, 2018)

ghandizilla said:


> (I'd add: instruments with very wet rooms are rewarding on even shorter notice but it's such a pain in the *ss to get them working with other instruments, and it's very profitable, since by locking your user on a room, you lock your user on your products !)


Exactly my point that it was a marketing ploy. That said, if you buy into the ecosystem you get very nice sounding instruments.


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## Simon Ravn (Mar 27, 2018)

I listened to the first 3 seconds of "For the Princess". Immediately put me off. Business as usual I am afraid.


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## EuropaWill (Mar 27, 2018)

New interface and more controls but the same recycled KH sound... It really surprises me that all the effort into releasing a new product in 2018 with videos and walk-through's are using the same synthetic sounding samples heard in countless previous KH releases like Spotlight Solo Strings, Concert Strings 3, etc... Still sounds like no release samples are included in the longs as they seem to just fade into nothing with that synthetic vibrato ringing unrealistically. I applaud the approach conceptually of going from one to 16 players with any number in between! But the execution using this underlying sound set of samples or synthesis method really needs to be put out to pasture.


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## muk (Mar 27, 2018)

Nice idea, but the sound is really not something that helps selling the product to me. Listen to this example:



Really not in the least alluring to me. And what happened with the piano? Even that sounds quite bad to me.


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## robgb (Mar 27, 2018)

EuropaWill said:


> using the same synthetic sounding samples


To each his own. I think ALL sample libraries sound synthetic to some degree, and Kirk Hunter libraries sound no more or less synthetic than others. I've also found that no matter the library, SOMEONE will say, "that sounds synthetic to me," or something along those lines. We like what we like.


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 27, 2018)

I think both approaches have their place with pros and cons. Kirk is definitely near the front of the pack, if not THE front of the pack in developing stuff headed in that direction, but I agree, we are very far from the finish line yet in terms of developing that kind of technology. Its a stepping stone.

I think Kirk is a string player himself and longs to have the same kind of control via a midi controller that he has when he picks up a violin. Is it there yet? Probably not, but that is the direction he seems to be heading. This new library apparently even has a mode where you use two midi keys to accelerate or decelerate the vibrato, kind of like a tap tempo kind of thing. He also has added "bow stops" to staccato notes...but you have a good point about long note releases. Supposedly it has some "auto" modes where it determines where to put in bow direction changes automatically. Automatic stuff always makes me nervous, but until I try it out, I can't really say.

I don't entirely disagree though that basically the underlying samples of each new string product seem to sound very similar. he says he has new samples, and usually there is more detail or something that forced him to resample the whole collection so that it all matches, and that's definitely a new set of samples, but it usually sounds very similar in the way its recorded, its not a new "sound", its just an expanded set of the same kind of sound with more clever programming in the brain of kontakt. It is what it is. I like his stuff anyway, and I think its possible to create some great recordings with it, but you have to roll up your sleeves and program your tracks to bring out the performance since its not baked into the samples like some other libraries.


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## Eric G (Mar 27, 2018)

I bought it yesterday and I have not been disappointed so far. The options to change basically everything to fit your "taste" is amazing. For the first time in a while I am actually reading the manual. Reminds me so much so SWAM instruments. I am not keyboarder but this product has raised my abilities. Period. Sorry guys, I have CSS, CS Strings, LASS 2, Adventure Strings, Soaring Strings, NI Strings to name a few and I am very impressed.


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## clisma (Mar 27, 2018)

Eric G said:


> I bought it yesterday and I have not been disappointed so far. The options to change basically everything to fit your "taste" is amazing. For the first time in a while I am actually reading the manual. Reminds me so much so SWAM instruments. I am not keyboarder but this product has raised my abilities. Period. Sorry guys, I have CSS, CS Strings, LASS 2, Adventure Strings, Soaring Strings, NI Strings to name a few and I am very impressed.


Would love to hear in it action in your capable hands.


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## d.healey (Mar 27, 2018)

robgb said:


> SOMEONE will say, "that sounds synthetic to me,"


Yup, and never quite explain what they mean  a sample is a recording of a real instrument after all


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## clisma (Mar 27, 2018)

In this case it’s not so much a case of sounding “synthetic” as it is, as aptly pointed out by @muk, a case of, well, not sounding great. The tone really puts me off. The greatest functionality in the world (and this seems quite great) becomes useless if you can’t get a good tone out of your instrument.


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 27, 2018)

I also wonder how this sounds compared to CS3, which I never got around to getting.


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## LHall (Mar 27, 2018)

This looks quite interesting. I never have any use for "auto-divisi" since I always play each section line independently. That's why I love LASS. But I'm wondering if this gives you the ability to say choose violins 1-4 for one pass, then 5-8 for the next and so on. It looks like the only way to do that is alway choose 16 violins and then just turn the ones you don't want all the way down. Eric G - can you comment on this? Wish they had a demo version!!


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## Eric G (Mar 27, 2018)

LHall said:


> This looks quite interesting. I never have any use for "auto-divisi" since I always play each section line independently. That's why I love LASS. But I'm wondering if this gives you the ability to say choose violins 1-4 for one pass, then 5-8 for the next and so on. It looks like the only way to do that is alway choose 16 violins and then just turn the ones you don't want all the way down. Eric G - can you comment on this? Wish they had a demo version!!



Very good question. And I am running out of time this week as I am taking the wife a vacation for a week on Friday. So we will see how far I get to questions from me or anyone else 

Here is what's in the manual that I haven't verified yet:

"Divisi - A switch that engages or disengages Divisi. If this feature is on, then during chords, a true divisi will apply.
•"On" In Legato Mode - If Divisi is on, then you can still play a chord, but any subsequent notes played, even if holding the original chord, will "take over" and turn off the chord.
•"Off" in Legato Mode - If Divisi is off, then you can play and hold a chord while playing an additional moving part over (or under) that chord, and the Legato will still work on the line you're adding to the original chord.
•"On" with Legato Mode Off - The section will still divide automatically no matter how many notes you play in a line or in a chord.
•"Off" with Legato Mode Off - This gives you the "biggest" sound because the chords are not divided.

Note - If Divisi is on, the sustain pedal will not behave as expected since the Divisi engine needs to take control of each voice's sustain relative to the amount of notes played.
Note - You cannot turn Divisi off if you are using only the soloist. You must have at least 2 players to turn divisi off. This is because the engine generally responds better in divisi mode especially for the soloist. Obviously, even if divisi is on, no divisi will occur using the soloist."


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## Eric G (Mar 27, 2018)

Some more info from the manual:

You cannot turn off the soloist. However, the soloist's volume does reduce automatically when playing with an ensemble.
If you want only 4 players, you cannot use players 5 through 16.
If you want more than 4 players, the 1st 4 player's volume will be set to a minimum of 48.
If you want more players than just the soloist, the soloist's minimum volume will be set to 36


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## EuropaWill (Mar 27, 2018)

Eric G said:


> Some more info from the manual:
> 
> You cannot turn off the soloist. However, the soloist's volume does reduce automatically when playing with an ensemble.
> If you want only 4 players, you cannot use players 5 through 16.
> ...


Sounds very similar to how KH Concert Strings 3 operated.


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## vintagevibe (Mar 27, 2018)

robgb said:


> To each his own. I think ALL sample libraries sound synthetic to some degree, and Kirk Hunter libraries sound no more or less synthetic than others. I've also found that no matter the library, SOMEONE will say, "that sounds synthetic to me," or something along those lines. We like what we like.



Thank you. It’s almost fashionable to diss Kirk Hunter libraries. I like them and agree that they are no more or less realistic than most others. They have a more up front sound but I prefer that to libraries like 8Dio Anthology types that sound way to refunded to me. Good news is there are tools to please averyone.


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## procreative (Mar 27, 2018)

1. Isn't this a low rent Dimension Strings?

2. Sounds rather dated somehow, to me sounds like some Korg Triton PCM chip add-on. A reasonable facscimile, that still sounds like a computer. Plus it has a sort of compressed tone a bit like an early 8 Bit sample.

The stacked strings sound better, but not doing it for me.


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## studiostuff (Mar 27, 2018)

This is just my opinion, but I don't like the way it sounds.


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## Fleer (Mar 27, 2018)

Well I do. Call it synthetic or whatever you want, but it sounds mighty fine to my ears. And it’s highly playable to boot, allowing for very creative uses and adaptations, which the vids evidently can’t show. Needless to say, as a longtime strings collector, I like it a lot.


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## jon wayne (Mar 27, 2018)

If you have a bad string section, you can turn on or off as many mics you want......still a bad string section.


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## robgb (Mar 27, 2018)

vintagevibe said:


> It’s almost fashionable to diss Kirk Hunter libraries.


Imagine if I'd mentioned Garritan...


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## Fleer (Mar 27, 2018)

Quite remarkable. Must be periodic. Was just visiting another thread where most people adamantly preferred Kirk Hunter to Project Sam:
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/project-sam-rack-extension-for-reason.46182/


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## jiffybox (Mar 27, 2018)

muk said:


> Nice idea, but the sound is really not something that helps selling the product to me. Listen to this example:
> 
> 
> 
> Really not in the least alluring to me. And what happened with the piano? Even that sounds quite bad to me.




Yeah, I have nothing against KH or this library for that matter, but that example sounded like a tipsy violinist at a French restaurant during a Valentine's Day pre-fixe dinner. _Not that there's anything wrong with that..._


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## studiostuff (Mar 27, 2018)

Fleer said:


> Well I do. Needless to say, as a longtime strings collector, I like it a lot.



Yeah. Well. If you want to measure manhood... I'm not a longtime strings collector. 

Until the last two or three years, I had the good fortune to do all of my work with real humans. Real chamber orchs. Lots of work. Lots of recording. 

And this library sounds nothing like a real human player or section. I can appreciate that as a longtime strings collector, you may not be able to hear a difference. 

Do you work for this company? Are you relatively new to recording music?

I don't know why you want to challenge my opinion. I'm willing to respect your right to have an opinion, as flawed by a lack of experience as it might be... : )


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## Sears Poncho (Mar 27, 2018)

jon wayne said:


> If you have a bad string section, you can turn on or off as many mics you want......still a bad string section.


As far as samples go, I would say it has more to do with the room, the quality of mics/gear and the quality of instruments than "bad string section". When I hear offerings by companies like Cinesamples, it's clear that they use good stuff/venues all the way around.


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## robgb (Mar 27, 2018)

Sears Poncho said:


> When I hear offerings by companies like Cinesamples, it's clear that they use good stuff/venues all the way around.


Okay, maybe. To a certain point. But Spitfire used good equipment/venues to record the strings in Alibion One, and I think their strings sound extremely generic and boring. They're certainly no better than any of the other string libraries I own, including a few of Kirk Hunter's, which have more personality in their sound. In fact, I rarely use Albion One because of this and wish I hadn't dropped $400 on it. So, again, to each his own.


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## jon wayne (Mar 27, 2018)

Sears Poncho said:


> As far as samples go, I would say it has more to do with the room, the quality of mics/gear and the quality of instruments than "bad string section". When I hear offerings by companies like Cinesamples, it's clear that they use good stuff/venues all the way around.


I really should have called it a bad set of string samples. I'm not one to automatically diss KH. I have bought several of his libraries, but there really is something about the tone that is......not great.


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## NoamL (Mar 27, 2018)

clisma said:


> In this case it’s not so much a case of sounding “synthetic” as it is, as aptly pointed out by @muk, a case of, well, not sounding great. The tone really puts me off. The greatest functionality in the world (and this seems quite great) becomes useless if you can’t get a good tone out of your instrument.



In addition I noticed during the demos that the library stayed at 0.60 GB when options were loaded and unloaded. So many of these appear to be scripted emulations. For example there is a keyswitch you can press to add emulated intense vibrato to a note (shown at 5:20). If you look carefully you can see that the keyswitch is just triggering a pitch bend wheel motion. It's not even an overlaid or crossfaded heavy-vibrato sample. Pitch bend vibrato doesn't sound real IMO.

By the way, LASS already showed you don't need a dozen separate recordings. Just four per section.

For example in the cellos, LASS has a First Chair, A section (3 players), B section (3 players) and C section (4 players). With these four sets of recordings you can create

1 player = FC
2 players = not possible
3 players = A _or_ B
4 players = C or FC+A _or_ FC+B
5 players = FC+C
6 players = A+B
7 players = FC+A+B _or_ A+C _or_ B+C
8 players = FC+A+C _or_ FC+B+C
9 players = not possible
10 players = A+B+C
11 players = FC+A+B+C

Yes two numbers are technically not achievable, but for all practical purposes, you can create any ensemble size from 1 to 11 using just four patches!

For the first violins they have recordings of 1, 4, 4 and 8 players. Thus ensemble sizes of 1, 4, 5, 8, 9, 12, 13, 16, and 17 are possible. Again, some numbers are not achievable but you have reasonable options all the way from 1 to 17.


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## SoundChris (Mar 28, 2018)

"The world's best Violin" - really? Maybe before 2012/13 but definitely not these days anymore. To me as a former violinist this sounds totally unnatural and not believable at all. You never will convince a string player or someone who listens to classical music to believe that this sounds like the real thing - because it just does not - by far. There are much better and more convincing options out there IMHO.


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## Batrawi (Mar 28, 2018)

d.healey said:


> a sample is a recording of a real instrument after all


...like a person's picture is a snapshot of a real person. And some people are really bad at taking pictures


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## procreative (Mar 28, 2018)

Two things that make it sound odd and false to me are the vibrato and the transitions. Its possible its just badly programmed. I also don't like the tone.

I dont think there are any totally realistic solo string libraries out there yet, but Bohemian and Joshua Bell come close.

The issue with many is that decisions need to be made on vibrato choices. Many either have a pre baked molto vibrato or use synthesized vibrato. 

With prebaked, you need more than one type and generally progressive vibrato works best as its when you play fast passages constant molto vibrato starts to grate and feel false as its impossible to physically play this way.

The stacking idea is not new its something Chris Hein is doing and its the foundation of Dimension Strings (only I get the feeling here there are not that many separate violins actually recorded).

The solo parts in this remind me of Dan Dean's stuff from a few years back.


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## Fleer (Mar 28, 2018)

@studiostuff
I meant I like the so called synthetic approach (for lack of a better word). It’s a sound I quite appreciate in strings, somewhat between synths and pure orchestral. But I’m a flautist, mind you, always on the lookout for accompanying strings. Maybe that’s why I like this so much, yet I presume Kirk Hunter to be a violinist himself. As for solo violin, I’d go for Embertone’s Joshua Bell.


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## Fleer (Mar 28, 2018)

Speaking of which, does anybody know whether Kirk Hunter is a violinist?


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## EvilDragon (Mar 28, 2018)

I think if he were a proper violinist, he wouldn't release products that sound like that... See Bohemian Violin for a product whose mastermind is an actual violinist.


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## Fleer (Mar 28, 2018)

You mean Embertone’s Joshua Bell


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 28, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> I think if he were a proper violinist, he wouldn't release products that sound like that... See Bohemian Violin for a product whose mastermind is an actual violinist.


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## Fleer (Mar 28, 2018)

Quid erat demonstrandum.


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## studiostuff (Mar 28, 2018)

Fleer said:


> Quid erat demonstrandum.


Don't you mean to say QUOD erat demonstrandum...?

QED indeed


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## Dr Belasco (Mar 28, 2018)

I've listened carefully. I wouldn't be able to use this unfortunately.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 28, 2018)

Fleer said:


> You mean Embertone’s Joshua Bell



No I mean Bohemian Violin. Virharmonic's Ondrej is the mastermind, and he's an actual violin player - and this shows in their products very much. For Embertone, it's Alex and Jon, and AFAIK neither of them are violinists. But they're quite the perfectionists, and it shows in a different way.



Dewdman42 said:


>




Well then there's no good explanation for the fake sound of KH strings... They are obviously missing a lot of points, and if Kirk as a violinist can't do anything about them, that's pretty much a lost cause then.


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## Fleer (Mar 28, 2018)

It’s a more synthetic sound, as someone wrote, quite interesting for pop or EDM.


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## Lassi Tani (Mar 28, 2018)

I was excited at first, but after the videos, not so much. I'm not a violinist, but I've listened a lot to a friend playing violin (1st concertmaster) and went to concerts, and I can say that in my opinion there are better sounding and convincing string libraries. Especially something with the solo up to four violins sounded quite artificial, maybe the vibrato and phrasing, which didn't sound natural to me. The ensemble was a bit better, but still not at level e.g. CH String Ensemble of which I've heard some great demos.


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## artomatic (Mar 28, 2018)

I can't help but compare any violin(s) library now to Joshua Bell, CH and the Bohemian Library.
At first glance this was going to be the first KH library purchase but I agree. I do like the multiple options/arts this library offers but after watching the 3 vids, I shall pass as well. Sound is everything.


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## Sears Poncho (Mar 28, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> and he's an actual violin player - and this shows in their products very much.


He might be an anomaly. Being a violin player (I'm one) doesn't qualify one for the actual gig= engineer, editor, sample-ologist, whatever. The bigger problem seems to be the recycling of old samples. If something like this was recorded fresh with good acoustics etc., it would be a winner. Right now it just sounds like old KH samples in a different presentation.


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## robgb (Mar 28, 2018)

Sears Poncho said:


> Right now it just sounds like old KH samples in a different presentation


How does a digital recording of a sound get "old?" It's a digital recording. VSL still has samples they recorded over a decade ago and those recordings don't sound old. They're as new as the day they were recorded. How long ago were Spitfire Strings recorded? Are they old now? Kirk Hunter's recordings are fine. What would change if they had been recorded yesterday? Different microphones? Maybe. But the digital tracking process has pretty much remained the same for the last two decades. The only thing that's really changed is the power and capacity of the computers used. As long as you have well recorded samples, what really counts these days is programming.


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## Sears Poncho (Mar 28, 2018)

robgb said:


> How does a digital recording of a sound get "old? What would change if they had been recorded yesterday


Well, I would think that over the course of a decade, one would learn more about mic placement, acoustics, gain staging, eq, blah blah blah. I think i have and I've never made a sample. So yeah, old is old even if the ones and zeroes aspect hasn't changed.


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 28, 2018)

Nothing wrong with kirk’s samples. I do think he’s getting a little carried away trying to create a single instrument that does everything in one instrument via keyswitches and playing techniques. Everything from solo to ensembles and all the playing techniques possible through one kontakt instrument. Thus the emulated vibrato which I won’t be able to assess until I try it but I have to admit I’m not too excited by the demo videos which are trying to show off the ability to build up an ensemble from “players” which had been the approach he has been pursuing for quite some time. Could be that he needs better demos made of it though.


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## Casiquire (Mar 28, 2018)

NoamL said:


> In addition I noticed during the demos that the library stayed at 0.60 GB when options were loaded and unloaded. So many of these appear to be scripted emulations. For example there is a keyswitch you can press to add emulated intense vibrato to a note (shown at 5:20). If you look carefully you can see that the keyswitch is just triggering a pitch bend wheel motion. It's not even an overlaid or crossfaded heavy-vibrato sample. Pitch bend vibrato doesn't sound real IMO.
> 
> By the way, LASS already showed you don't need a dozen separate recordings. Just four per section.
> 
> ...



Quick correction, you also have "2nd Chair" so there are even more possibilities.


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## Eric G (Mar 28, 2018)

Perfectly realistic sound is a very important consideration for me.

However it must be balanced with my PERSONAL composing and production LIMITATIONS. My limitations begin with the fact I am not a Keyboardist and I not an expert MIDI jockey or production wizard. Yet.

Therefore I look for and need instruments that assist me to fill the gap (and increase my productivity) because I can't play it in realistically (without some help). And entering MIDI manually is just not for ME . So If I can't do that I can't even get close to the holy grail of realism to the ears of PROS.

I have BH Violin and Cello. Love them, Playability and sound is spot on, and the playability is exactly what I am looking for. BUT I am not fond of the UVI engine and its BH Violin is BIG and uses a lot of resources (I finally get it loaded up with the base BH Violin I am at 1.8GB, load up Cello and add 2.7GB ) then there is CPU usage. When you are trying to build out a Orchestral Template, size and resources matter. Right now I can't afford to be a purist. Some people can. I am envious. But I have live with my LIMITATIONS.

After purchasing KH Violins and having it for a day to kick the tires I can say right now it fits within MY limitations and I believe it would be a great fit for others. (And yes I have Joshua on my list, but the ensemble features moved me to KH first.)


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 28, 2018)

I am really wondering how it compares to some of the older releases from KH such as Concert Strings 3 and Spotlight Solo Strings.


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## Fleer (Mar 28, 2018)

Eric G said:


> Perfectly realistic sound is a very important consideration for me.
> 
> However it must be balanced with my PERSONAL composing and production LIMITATIONS. My limitations begin with the fact I am not a Keyboardist and I not an expert MIDI jockey or production wizard. Yet.
> 
> ...


Same approach here. Within my limitations, being a flautist, it fits my playing and writing style, more pop and singer songwriter oriented than classical.


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## bigcat1969 (Mar 28, 2018)

Just wish Bohemian weren't in that ILok world....
Kirk Hunter Diamond on sale is the best bang for the buck in the world, IMO, for starting orchestral folk. Though in vastly different ways Inspire and VSCO2 Pro might be better now when on sale. The newer KH samples to me don't sound like they have moved on that much since Diamond. I got the KH concert strings bundle and its OK, but I then I crank up Adagio / Anthology (which has its own problems) or Inspire and they just take me to another world.


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## Pantonal (Mar 28, 2018)

I've been working with KH Strings since buying the bundle. In general I'll stick with CS3. It does have a very upfront sound (almost in your face). I tried dialing back cc11 and that helps and I haven't tried dialing in some Sul Tasto to mellow the sound a bit. But I watched an orchestration analysis of Mahler's Adagietto movement on Youtube and realized I don't think CS3 could ever get that very gentle pianissimo sound so vital to that movement. When the bank account will allow I may spring for CSS. Would I be correct in believing it's almost the opposite of CS3?


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## Fleer (Mar 28, 2018)

studiostuff said:


> Don't you mean to say QUOD erat demonstrandum...?
> 
> QED indeed


Quid est quod est corrigendum


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## MA-Simon (Mar 28, 2018)

http://www.cinematicstudioseries.com/solo-strings.html
Still my favorite solo strings.


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## Fleer (Mar 28, 2018)

Until we get new solo strings from Spitfire


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## robgb (Mar 28, 2018)

Sears Poncho said:


> Well, I would think that over the course of a decade, one would learn more about mic placement, acoustics, gain staging, eq, blah blah blah. I think i have and I've never made a sample. So yeah, old is old even if the ones and zeroes aspect hasn't changed.


I think engineers have been recording orchestras for quite some time and have known how to get a great sound for decades. Yes, there may be quality differences based on WHO did the recording, but little has changed in terms of technique. In fact, many engineers now make a living teaching the techniques they've been using since the eighties (and before) to aspiring engineers. Again, the equipment may have changed, but a good digital recording is a good recording and doesn't really get old.


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## robgb (Mar 28, 2018)

Pantonal said:


> It does have a very upfront sound (almost in your face). I tried dialing back cc11 and that helps


Use two reverbs (or delay). One placing it in a smaller space, and another placing it in a larger room.


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## DSmolken (Mar 28, 2018)

I like flexibility, dryness, and modeling things whenever possible, and I'm a bassist.


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## procreative (Mar 29, 2018)

robgb said:


> Again, the equipment may have changed, but a good digital recording is a good recording and doesn't really get old.



A good analogue recording safely archived or digitised will stand the test of time. Digital audio though? The early converters of 10+ years ago don't compare. Plus the approach to recording for samples has evolved.

Libraries from the last 5 years or so have a lot more samples to cover different dynamics and if the samples had edits to remove start/end points and noise reduction applied?

Then there is the possible lack of Mic positions, maybe they were mixed down to stereo and cannot be remixed?

But in the case of this library, something sounds odd about the tone, its very nasel sounding and the vibrato sounds a bit false especially made worse by the constant level in all the demos.

But each to their own.


----------



## robgb (Mar 29, 2018)

procreative said:


> The early converters of 10+ years ago don't compare. Plus the approach to recording for samples has evolved.


Of course, but the difference isn't enough to render, say, VSL's first sample libraries sonically "old." I still use the old Kontakt version of OPUS 1 regularly and those samples sound as great as ever. Same for the Sonivox samples. We can niggle about converters until the cows come home, but that's a pointless exercise. As for the approach to recording samples, what has changed other than including the room sound these days?


procreative said:


> Then there is the possible lack of Mic positions, maybe they were mixed down to stereo and cannot be remixed?


I think mic positions are a bunch of pointless hoodoo. Give me a close sample. I'll set it in the mix where it needs to go.


procreative said:


> But in the case of this library, something sounds odd about the tone, its very nasel sounding


Not sure I agree, but what do you do when you have a nasal sounding singer? You correct it with EQ. If the tone isn't to your liking, it's easy enough to change it.

By the way, the walkthrough video clearly says that Hunter recording sixteen separate solo violins for this library. So apparently the samples are "new" not "old."


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## bvaughn0402 (Mar 29, 2018)

I think it's a cool concept, and I'm almost tempted by it.

I guess I would prefer to have the whole string section available, and not just violins. I'm sure that is on the roadmap for this.


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## dtcomposer (Mar 29, 2018)

The problem is simply that they don't sound realistic. If you aren't after realistic and just want something that vaguely resembles a violin section then this is fine. There are some nice features and organization. If you value a level of authenticity and realism in the sound these are about the last thing you would go for on the market today. I have always been tempted to use sounds like these when I am composing concert music that needs lots of divisi strings for effects or modern orchestration. The sound is brutal, though. I don't think I could do it even for that purpose. Eventually somebody is going to figure out a way to make a light footprint divisi-able section that is customizable and sounds good enough to use without making your ears bleed. Maybe when AI is more advanced we can program them to play some future (better sounding) version of SWAM strings with minimal instruction and tweaking needed.


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## SBK (Mar 29, 2018)

I listened to the demo "Airesis - For the princess", I wanted to find out if those violins were indeed from this library, and I bought it for this reason, I am very impressed from it but its a bit hard to learn how to do legato transition, slides , portamento etc etc


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 29, 2018)

which demo is that you're referring to?


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## String-for-sale (Mar 29, 2018)

I liked the videos, so I decided to get it. It's really, really flexible. I especially like the sound of the solo violin.


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 29, 2018)

can you compare the sound at all to spotlight solo strings or CS3?


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## EuropaWill (Mar 30, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


>



This video is a perfect example to refute the theory some people have accepted from various developers that any library that doesn't sound great or realistic must be due to the developer not using a good enough room, hall, venue, or rare and expensive microphones. This myth is constantly being used by developers to help them make marketing points that have nothing really to do with making a solo violin (or any instrument) sound realistic. That video was probably recorded on someone's cell phone in the middle of a terrible audio environment, a loud trade show area packed with talking people. Despite this, i'm sure everyone can agree that this sounds like a real violin. Unfortunately KH can't make a virtual instrument sound as realistic as himself picking up a random violin in a loud trade show and doodling on it for a few minutes recorded on the microphone on someone's cell phone. 

It's too much of an oversimplification to say "if it is a sample, that is a recording of a real violin also". Perhaps the raw sample started out sounding like a violin but developers make technical decisions or shortcuts that can severely impact the final result. Some record _every_ pitch at multiple velocity layers and multiple vibrato layers and integrate them very well through expert scripting. Some don't and record every few notes and then stretch one sample a few times to make up for the notes not sampled. Some legatos and portamentos are not recorded but simulated (with varying success) through pitch bend scripts, encoding, bit depth, is the vibrato real or emulated? If it is emulated does it have sophisticated scripting that mimics the vibrato behavior of a well trained musician or is it merely a glorified LFO with static settings...just so many variables that result in the final package.


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## Sears Poncho (Mar 30, 2018)

EuropaWill said:


> Perhaps the raw sample started out sounding like a violin but developers make technical decisions or shortcuts that can severely impact the final result. Some record _every_ pitch at multiple velocity layers and multiple vibrato layers and integrate them very well through expert scripting. Some don't and record every few notes and then stretch one sample a few times to make up for the notes not sampled. Some legatos and portamentos are not recorded but simulated (with varying success) through pitch bend scripts, encoding, bit depth, is the vibrato real or emulated? If it is emulated does it have sophisticated scripting that mimics the vibrato behavior of a well trained musician or is it merely a glorified LFO with static settings...just so many variables that result in the final package.


Well stated.


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## Vardaro (Apr 1, 2018)

It sounds to me as like a handy re-cycling of the violin samples in Spotlight strings and Concert Strings 3.
Ironically, my copy of CS3, bought during a group buy, still has the solo option, which seems to have disappeared since then. Although I still use Spotlight for solos when I'm in a hurry.


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## blougui (Apr 1, 2018)

Man, I really dislike the tone... 
I understand the need to EQ to blenor mix instruments together. But when you don’t like the tone, why bother ?


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## robgb (Apr 1, 2018)

I have to laugh. If this library had the name Spitfire on it, many of you dismissing it now would be saying it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Apr 1, 2018)

robgb said:


> I have to laugh. If this library had the name Spitfire on it, many of you dismissing it now would be saying it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.


How do you know? 

Maybe they would shocked that their beloved spitfire would ... do ... _that_ ...
High expectations can also lead to deeper disappointments.


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## Arbee (Apr 1, 2018)

robgb said:


> I have to laugh. If this library had the name Spitfire on it, many of you dismissing it now would be saying it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.


I listened to a few seconds and had to turn it off, didn't sound good to me at all. BTW, I'm not a Spitfire fan either.


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## robgb (Apr 1, 2018)

DarkestShadow said:


> How do you know?
> 
> Maybe they would shocked that their beloved spitfire would ... do ... _that_ ...
> High expectations can also lead to deeper disappointments.


I don't, of course. Just speculating. I have seen a deep bias for and against various developers that have little to do with quality and everything to do with status. But, naturally, I could be wrong...


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## jtnyc (Apr 1, 2018)

----

ppp

------------------------------------


robgb said:


> I have to laugh. If this library had the name Spitfire on it, many of you dismissing it now would be saying it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.



Way to go! Just assign the idea that the people who don't like the sound of this library aren't being genuine with their opinion and are just fanboys of another company. That's just so convenient. Defines everyone with an opinion that doesn't line up with yours as somehow not legit in one simple swipe. Nice one -


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## robgb (Apr 1, 2018)

jtnyc said:


> ----
> 
> ppp
> 
> ...


Relax. I didn't say all of you. But I have certainly noticed quite a bit of fanboyism on these forums, and I have noticed certain "lesser" developers get their products attacked needlessly. But, hey, for most of us it comes down to personal taste.


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## jtnyc (Apr 1, 2018)

robgb said:


> Relax. I didn't say all of you. But I have certainly noticed quite a bit of fanboyism on these forums, and I have noticed certain "lesser" developers get their products attacked needlessly. But, hey, for most of us it comes down to personal taste.



I'm very relaxed, thanks. Yes, I have seen plenty of fanboyism here as well, but you used it to describe people in this thread who didn't like this library.

And yes, it always comes down to personal taste, but that's not what the spirit of your original comment was


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## Lionel Schmitt (Apr 1, 2018)

robgb said:


> I don't, of course. Just speculating. I have seen a deep bias for and against various developers that have little to do with quality and everything to do with status. But, naturally, I could be wrong...


Sure there is bias going on (pretty stupid, really...) Just found your notion rather.. radical. From hate to love because Spitfire, meh... can't imagine.


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## pfmusic (Apr 1, 2018)

Not impressed with these strings at all. Each to their own with this one.


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## chrisphan (Apr 1, 2018)

I'd be interested to see a blind test


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## robgb (Apr 1, 2018)

jtnyc said:


> And yes, it always comes down to personal taste, but that's not what the spirit of your original comment was


I always love it when people think they can read my mind. My point was, and always has been, this: some people don't like things because of the name attached to them. I don't know if any of those people are on this particular thread, but I wouldn't be surprised. And I don't think that's such a radical notion.


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## robgb (Apr 1, 2018)

chrisphan said:


> I'd be interested to see a blind test


I remembering seeing one several years ago in which the participants thought the real violin was fake...


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## jtnyc (Apr 1, 2018)

robgb said:


> I always love it when people think they can read my mind. My point was, and always has been, this: some people don't like things because of the name attached to them. I don't know if any of those people are on this particular thread, but I wouldn't be surprised. And I don't think that's such a radical notion.



I can assure you I don't think I can read your mind, but I can read your words - "_If this library had the name Spitfire on it, many of you dismissing it now would be saying it's the greatest thing since sliced bread"._ You said many of "_you_" that are "_dismissing it now_" as in the people you were interacting with in this thread regarding their opinion on this particular library, not as some general comment about other people on this forum. You now say you don't know if any of those people were in this thread, but again, you said, _many of you dismissing it now. _You were clearly referring to many of the people in this this thread that were dismissing the library.


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## robgb (Apr 1, 2018)

jtnyc said:


> You were clearly referring to many of the people in this this thread that were dismissing the library.


I like the blue text. Makes it more dramatic.


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## jtnyc (Apr 1, 2018)

robgb said:


> I like the blue text. Makes it more dramatic.



Drama was not my goal. Just clarity. I just wanted to make sure you didn't miss what you actually wrote since it seems you had forgotten when you reimagined it in that last post.


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## mouse (Apr 2, 2018)

Maybe if this didn't say Kirk Hunter on it Robgb wouldn't be defending it so much. Everyone has their bias


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## Casiquire (Apr 2, 2018)

I understand the point that opinions are colored by the developer, but that doesn't mean that most dissenting opinions are wrong. I know this will sound convenient and self-serving, so choose to believe or doubt me as you wish, but when I first heard Chris Hein's strings I mixed them up with Kirk Hunter and was super impressed, thinking it was amazing how KH modernized their sound. VSL's winds sound wonderful to me but not all their strings and brass do. Sample Modeling brass is amazing but the strings are weaker. Hollywood Strings and Brass are great but the woods are middle of the road. I could go on and on. It's just not likely that an amazing library will get dragged through the mud just because of the name it bears, especially when the developer is praised for great ideas and concepts.

That's not to say there's no fanboyism going on here, especially concerning Spitfire. I'm totally with you there and it's quite annoying. That doesn't invalidate what I think are genuine concerns about the tone of this library.


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## muk (Apr 2, 2018)

robgb said:


> I have to laugh. If this library had the name Spitfire on it, many of you dismissing it now would be saying it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.



As much as I agree on your view about the fanboyism on this forum, I disagree with your estimation of this library. The demos sound very bad to my ears. Not even remotely close to something I could imagine being useful for my mockups. In fact, to me they sound so obviously far removed from how I know real violins sounding that I am genuinely puzzled this would not be obvious to everyone. Shows just how different ears can be.


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## robgb (Apr 2, 2018)

mouse said:


> Maybe if this didn't say Kirk Hunter on it Robgb wouldn't be defending it so much. Everyone has their bias


Well, I did, after all, start the thread. But i have criticized Hunter in the past (particularly the terrible woodwinds in Diamond). I do, however, think there is an undue bias against him in these forums.


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## robgb (Apr 2, 2018)

jtnyc said:


> Drama was not my goal. Just clarity. I just wanted to make sure you didn't miss what you actually wrote since it seems you had forgotten when you reimagined it in that last post.


I don't believe I either forgot, denied or reimagined what I said, but I certainly seem to have hit a sore spot. If nothing else, this thread is proof that we all have different ears.


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## chibear (Apr 2, 2018)

robgb said:


> Well, I did, after all, start the thread. But i have criticized Hunter in the past (particularly the terrible woodwinds in Diamond). I do, however, think there is an undue bias against him in these forums.



Have to agree with that. There is no developer whose products cause such polarizations on these forums than Kirk Hunter, almost like there are 2 distinct value systems clashing. Personally I like a lot of his stuff, regularly using his string and brass libraries, but also agree re the woodwinds, both in Diamond and Spotlight Ensembles: dreadful and unusable. I also have issues with Kirk Hunter the person in that he seems eager for feedback but then disappears mid conversation when you don't agree with him.

To the OP: I have heard nothing in the demos that l would not be able to accomplish in version 2 of Concert Strings 3 (version with soloists included). The 'sound' is strings as perceived and realized by a string player and pretty much agrees with my my conception of what string instruments sound like after sitting in orchestras for almost 5 decades.


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## clisma (Apr 2, 2018)

I’m still waiting for someone who has bought this to let us hear it in their hands. This could all be very easy and less rhetorical.


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## markleake (Apr 2, 2018)

I think people who play the Spitfire victim game only read the commercial announcement part of the forum. Spitfire get their fair share of criticisms if you care to skip over their commercial theads (not hard to do) and look at other parts of the forum. People just get a bit too excited sometimes due to their marketing I think.

So, usually a newly released library worth one's salt has some examples posted here after a few days. Are there any examples for this lib? I didn't see any in this thread yet.


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## robgb (Apr 2, 2018)

chibear said:


> To the OP: I have heard nothing in the demos that l would not be able to accomplish in version 2 of Concert Strings 3 (version with soloists included). The 'sound' is strings as perceived and realized by a string player and pretty much agrees with my my conception of what string instruments sound like after sitting in orchestras for almost 5 decades.


I agree, actually. But I do think that KH's scripting is always interesting and sometimes innovative, and it looks as if he's taken it a step further with this library.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 2, 2018)

In my view Kirk is pushing the envelope more then anyone into kontakt scripting and attempting to make a playable instrument with increasingly more and more control. I don’t think his samples are any better or worse then before and they are fine. I think with more playability comes a situation where it can be very easy to play it badly and sound fake. Might be possible to play it amazingly and sound amazing, we don’t know yet. Could be also that this is a stepping stone product on that path of innovation to something better down the road. I have always consider kh a bit of a mad scientist, and he’s still important to follow. That said I will probably pass on this one because it sounds very similar to other stuff I have from him and the extreme playability is not a priority for me, as I suspect is the case for many people. Kirk is trying to do with samples what others have done with sample modeling and in my view neither technology is quite there yet. I admire their efforts to explore it and maybe someday it will be there. I think in certain musical contexts where absolute realism is not needed, but rather playability and expressiveness, then a tool like this can be just the thing needed. It becomes entirely subjective at that point.


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## Casiquire (Apr 2, 2018)

I agree that he's innovative and I've kept my eye on him for years now because of that. Ton of potential.


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## jtnyc (Apr 2, 2018)

robgb said:


> I don't believe I either forgot, denied or reimagined what I said, but I certainly seem to have hit a sore spot. If nothing else, this thread is proof that we all have different ears.



I guess the blue highlighting didn't help you after all. Maybe try rereading what you originally wrote, then reread how you later characterized what you wrote. They simply don't add up. 

If by hitting a sore spot you mean when people can't own what they say and feel the need to dance around and try and rewrite it.... then yeah, I guess you did. You directed the comment to the people in this thread that were dismissing the KH library, then you did a 180 and said you were only making a general comment about fanboyism on VI-C and didn't even know if any of those people were even in this thread. Makes no sense, sorry.


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## Leslie Sanford (Apr 2, 2018)

procreative said:


> But in the case of this library, something sounds odd about the tone, its very nasel sounding and the vibrato sounds a bit false especially made worse by the constant level in all the demos.



A few years ago I downloaded a demo for Spotlight Solo Strings (another Kirk Hunter library). Something sounded off to me, so I dug into some of the patches in Kontakt and found a convolution reverb in the effects chain. It was using a wave file with a very short impulse response presumably to add 'body' to the samples. Once I removed it, the samples sounded much better to me, much more open and less nasal. I wonder if the same technique is used here.


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## markleake (Apr 4, 2018)

markleake said:


> I think people who play the Spitfire victim game only read the commercial announcement part of the forum. Spitfire get their fair share of criticisms if you care to skip over their commercial theads (not hard to do) and look at other parts of the forum. People just get a bit too excited sometimes due to their marketing I think.


Urg... replying to myself, but whatever... I need to correct what I said. After seeing how some people have reacted over the last few days to Daniel James's recent first impressions video of Hans Zimmer Strings, I take the above back and apologise. It seems as much as I love my Spitfire products, there are some here who are willing to go in to bat for them on anything, at any time, for any random reason. :(


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## ghandizilla (Apr 4, 2018)

Here too. It's everywhere. It's gone global.

@Leslie Sanford would be curious if anyone checked this


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## sostenuto (Apr 22, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> (edit) …………….. I don’t think his samples are any better or worse then before and they are fine. ……….. That said I will probably pass on this one because it sounds very similar to other stuff I have from him and the extreme playability is not a priority for me, as I suspect is the case for many people. Kirk is trying to do with samples what others have done with sample modeling and in my view neither technology is quite there yet. ….



Important reaction,_ for me_, coming from one much more perceptive and experienced than I.
This new Library was immediately of interest, and I contacted KH Studios with questions … as I now use Diamond Symphony Orchestra.
_Here is Reply_ ……..
Front Row Violins gives you the ability to control exactly how many players you want in the ensemble from a single soloist up to 16 players. They also use real divisi when more than one player is chosen. _The solo violin is far better than those in Diamond or Spotlight solo Strings.
_
The combination of User impressions and this Reply, gives me pause …. 
Whether to go forward with Front Row Violins now, or in a very different direction, is the current question.
Options considered are Audiobro, Spitfire Audio, _*and just now*_ Auddict _ Angel Strings Vol 1. 

If KH_Front Row Violins is truly not a notable complement/enhancement to Diamond Symphony Orchestra, then I surely need to move to these/some alternatives.


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## Hanu_H (Apr 22, 2018)

sostenuto said:


> Important reaction,_ for me_, coming from one much more perceptive and experienced than I.
> This new Library was immediately of interest, and I contacted KH Studios with questions … as I now use Diamond Symphony Orchestra.
> _Here is Reply_ ……..
> Front Row Violins gives you the ability to control exactly how many players you want in the ensemble from a single soloist up to 16 players. They also use real divisi when more than one player is chosen. _The solo violin is far better than those in Diamond or Spotlight solo Strings.
> ...


I have listened many demos and videos from Kirk Hunter's libraries and I just can't believe that someone could even compare these for the libraries like LASS, Spitfire Strings or any of the big ones. For me Kirk Hunter is in the same league with the Garritan. Even the Sonivox Strings sound a lot better, if only they would be in Kontakt...

-Hannes


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## sostenuto (Apr 22, 2018)

Hanu_H said:


> I have listened many demos and videos from Kirk Hunter's libraries and I just can't believe that someone could even compare these for the libraries like LASS, Spitfire Strings or any of the big ones. For me Kirk Hunter is in the same league with the Garritan. Even the Sonivox Strings sound a lot better, if only they would be in Kontakt...
> 
> -Hannes



Surely you can appreciate how strongly these comments affect someone at early learning (orchestral) process. My lifetime piano/organ/keyboard training and experience help to some degree, but orchestral instruments are so very different. 

Can you add any further details which cause you to markdown KH Libraries so drastically ? My current alternatives definitely include LASS, or Spitfire choices (_to add to existing Albions, Orch_Swarm_).


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## Hanu_H (Apr 22, 2018)

sostenuto said:


> Surely you can appreciate how strongly these comments affect someone at early learning (orchestral) process. My lifetime piano/organ/keyboard training and experience help to some degree, but orchestral instruments are so very different.
> 
> Can you add any further details which cause you to markdown KH Libraries so drastically ? My current alternatives definitely include LASS, or Spitfire choices (_to add to existing Albions, Orch_Swarm_).


For me the biggest problem is the sound. It sounds like a not so great player, in a not so great room, recorded with a mediocre mic. The scripting is also not to my taste. If you are after a dry library, I advice you to check out Chris Heins new library or LASS.

-Hannes


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## Casiquire (Apr 22, 2018)

Hanu_H said:


> I have listened many demos and videos from Kirk Hunter's libraries and I just can't believe that someone could even compare these for the libraries like LASS, Spitfire Strings or any of the big ones. For me Kirk Hunter is in the same league with the Garritan. Even the Sonivox Strings sound a lot better, if only they would be in Kontakt...
> 
> -Hannes



I am not a fan of the KH sound myself, but you must realize how well scripted and controllable the libraries are. They do some pretty amazing things that elevate them beyond Garritan or starter level, though I agree that they don't wind up sonically where I want them to be.


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## sostenuto (Apr 22, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> I am not a fan of three KH sound myself, but you must realize how well scripted and controllable the libraries are. They do some pretty amazing things that elevate them beyond Garritan or starter level, though I agree that they don't wind up sonically where I want them to be.



 …. and a frustrating issue for more senior, lifetime musicians (like myself) who must deal daily with various hearing limitations. My HF rolloff is notable, yet I am at the keyboard every day, and hours with DAW 'enjoyment'.
Not being able to discern the subtleties, that most others take for granted, makes for much greater reliance on reviews and critiques by many here. 
Likely I will still not sort the differences, but I still prefer to purchase and use with more 'awareness'


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## Hanu_H (Apr 22, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> I am not a fan of three KH sound myself, but you must realize how well scripted and controllable the libraries are. They do some pretty amazing things that elevate them beyond Garritan or starter level, though I agree that they don't wind up sonically where I want them to be.


You are right. I would use KH over Garritan but they both are to me libraries only usable for writing and getting the ideas down, maybe replaced with live players later. With all the amazing libraries I have, I wouldn't use KH in a final product.

-Hannes


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## sostenuto (Apr 22, 2018)

Hanu_H said:


> You are right. I would use KH over Garritan but they both are to me libraries only usable for writing and getting the ideas down, maybe replaced with live players later. With all the amazing libraries I have, I wouldn't use KH in a final product.
> 
> -Hannes



OK. Some understanding where you are coming from ….. so what would you prefer in cases which suggested/demanded capabilities of KH_Front Row Violins ?? 
I'm truly ignorant here and trying to learn what offers ability to add from 1 to 16 player sections and/or position as KH_FRV (divisi) allows ? 
I cannot move up to 'full' LASS right now, but can start with FC 2, or LASS Lite, or the Lite Bundle.


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## Hanu_H (Apr 22, 2018)

sostenuto said:


> OK. Some understanding where you are coming from ….. so what would you prefer in cases which suggested/demanded capabilities of KH_Front Row Violins ??
> I'm truly ignorant here and trying to learn what offers ability to add from 1 to 16 player sections and/or position as KH_FRV (divisi) allows ?
> I cannot move up to 'full' LASS right now, but can start with FC 2, or LASS Lite, or the Lite Bundle.


I think it's kind of overrated to have options like that. In the sample world it doesn't have to be so accurate because it doesn't sound real anyways. I mostly use section strings or solo strings. If I need smaller sections, I can layer few different solo libraries or use one of the divisis of LASS. What I mean, is that, it's not such a big difference to have 4 sampled violins vs 8 sampled violins recorded in the same place. But to have two different libraries with different amount of players can make a huge difference. And mixing is a big part of it all. Small section can sound huge as well.

-Hannes


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## sostenuto (Apr 22, 2018)

Hanu_H said:


> I think it's kind of overrated to have options like that. In the sample world it doesn't have to be so accurate because it doesn't sound real anyways. I mostly use section strings or solo strings. If I need smaller sections, I can layer few different solo libraries or use one of the divisis of LASS. What I mean, is that, it's not such a big difference to have 4 sampled violins vs 8 sampled violins recorded in the same place. But to have two different libraries with different amount of players can make a huge difference. And mixing is a big part of it all. Small section can sound huge as well.
> 
> -Hannes



Thank-you for your patience and help as I learn to understand these orchestral details.
LASS divisi is a key factor for me, but as you know, it takes the 'Full' library ($600.) to gain this capability. 
While quite different, SF_ Alternative Solo Strings, or the imminent 'replacement' Solo Strings are my alternative interest.

I'll leave you be and stop pestering for now !


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## Casiquire (Apr 22, 2018)

I do actually think the ensembles sound decent, but I haven't heard a lot of examples of them.


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## sostenuto (Apr 22, 2018)

If you mean KH_Virtuoso Ensembles, I have read enough positive reviews to purchase, but so many really low-cost Promos …. hard not to wait for the next one …….


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## Fleer (Apr 22, 2018)

sostenuto said:


> If you mean KH_Virtuoso Ensembles, I have read enough positive reviews to purchase, but so many really low-cost Promos …. hard not to wait for the next one …….


Yeah, I like those a lot. Nimble and sweet.


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## Sid Francis (Apr 22, 2018)

I use them all the time: strings, brass and ww....sometimes the simpler things do the trick better.


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## robgb (Apr 23, 2018)

Hanu_H said:


> For me the biggest problem is the sound.


Funny, I've played these side by side with my other string libraries (Spitfire, VSL, CS2) and the difference in sound is almost nonexistent except for the room ambience. I have also had the opportunity to use LASS, and can attest to a big difference there, but I didn't particularly like the way it sounds.


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## germancomponist (Apr 23, 2018)

I havn't read all the posts here, but I experimented some years ago with this. Build a section out of solo instruments. Listen to my results what I did in 2008, adding many solo violins ... . https://app.box.com/shared/dwf3n6tk4w

https://app.box.com/shared/ny6b9hjtw8


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## sostenuto (Apr 23, 2018)

robgb said:


> Funny, I've played these side by side with my other string libraries (Spitfire, VSL, CS2) and the difference in sound is almost nonexistent except for the room ambience. I have also had the opportunity to use LASS, and can attest to a big difference there, but I didn't particularly like the way it sounds.



".... didn't particularly like the way it ( *it* being LASS *?*) sounds." Any critical descriptors ?
Darn .... LASS is my alternate right now, but trying to pay attention before next move.


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## Casiquire (Apr 23, 2018)

LASS is my all-time favorite. This KH product sounds quite different, but again I don't think the ensembles are actually that bad.

I'm not sure how they can claim to be the world's first true divisi though? That's not totally accurate.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 23, 2018)

Kh divisi works by automatically detecting when more then one voice at a time on a channel is happening and automatically plays divisi samples appropriately. I’m not sure if anything else works that way but the idea is you can play in your part with single lines and chords and kh will divisi it up so that it sounds like what wouod happen if th section divided. No key switches or automation needed.


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## robgb (Apr 23, 2018)

sostenuto said:


> ".... didn't particularly like the way it ( *it* being LASS *?*) sounds." Any critical descriptors ?
> Darn .... LASS is my alternate right now, but trying to pay attention before next move.


It, LASS, was a little raw (and I assume purposely) out of tune for my taste. But keep in mind I only played with it for about twenty minutes, and I'm told it's a library you need to spend time with to get good results. I may also have been trying to justify a reason NOT to buy it, because the price tag is hefty.


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## Kony (Apr 23, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> LASS is my all-time favorite.


Mine too - I like that it's raw so it can be shaped according to requirements


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## Casiquire (Apr 23, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> Kh divisi works by automatically detecting when more then one voice at a time on a channel is happening and automatically plays divisi samples appropriately. I’m not sure if anything else works that way but the idea is you can play in your part with single lines and chords and kh will divisi it up so that it sounds like what wouod happen if th section divided. No key switches or automation needed.



LASS :D

And if we're getting technical, NI Symphony Strings which were worked on by Audiobro as well


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 23, 2018)

Yea I don’t know then what else he could mean by that


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## jon wayne (Apr 23, 2018)

If I stated that I didn't like the taste of beets, would someone tell me how they taste as good as tomatoes or avocados? If you don't like the sound of a library, you shouldn't be convinced that you should like it?


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## robgb (Apr 23, 2018)

jon wayne said:


> If I stated that I didn't like the taste of beets, would someone tell me how they taste as good as tomatoes or avocados?


Yes, they probably would.


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## TimCox (Apr 23, 2018)

sostenuto said:


> LASS is my alternate right now, but trying to pay attention before next move.



LASS is a workhorse. It might be old but it can generally get the job done. And the divisi can’t be beat


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## Hanu_H (Apr 23, 2018)

robgb said:


> Funny, I've played these side by side with my other string libraries (Spitfire, VSL, CS2) and the difference in sound is almost nonexistent except for the room ambience. I have also had the opportunity to use LASS, and can attest to a big difference there, but I didn't particularly like the way it sounds.


Well, if all of those libraries(Spitfire, VSL, CS2 and KH) don't sound different to you, then this conversation is kind of useless. LASS don't sound great out of the box. It was recorded dry in a studio. You need some EQ and reverb to make it shine. And it has different dynamics than most of the libraries, you need to stay below 100 with your modwheel to not have harsh sound. But it still is one of the best libraries out there.

-Hannes


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## robgb (Apr 24, 2018)

Hanu_H said:


> Well, if all of those libraries(Spitfire, VSL, CS2 and KH) don't sound different to you, then this conversation is kind of useless.


I don't think I said that. I believe I said that the difference in sound is ALMOST nonexistent. There are differences, but they are slight. Let's face it, a string library is basically a string library, and engineers will argue endlessly over which mic/pre-amps/room are best to record them. But with Spitfire, for example, there's no way to strip away the baked-in room sound unless you try to deverberate, and that can be done with only marginal results. So it's impossible for us to know how much of the room factors into the sound—but I'm guessing it's a LOT. So, as I said, except for the room ambience, the differences are slight. Which is probably why they seem to layer so well.

As for LASS, I get it. I actually prefer dry recordings. That's why I like a lot of Hunter's stuff and VSL and why Chris Hein's new ensemble library looks tempting. And yes, you need some EQ and reverb to make ANY library shine, except for those like Spitfire, which do all that work for you so you don't have to learn anything about mixing and can feel good right out of the box (I don't consider that an asset). I'm sure if I had been given a few hours with LASS I would have fallen in love with it, but my first impression was this: do I really want to spend close to a grand for this string library?


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## labornvain (Apr 24, 2018)

I'm sorry. But this sounds horrible. jesus.

Edit: I should add that, to the contrary, the Chris Hein "built" ensemble library sounds extremely good. So the concept works.


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## sostenuto (Apr 24, 2018)

robgb said:


> I don't think I said that. I believe I said that the difference in sound is ALMOST nonexistent. There are differences, but they are slight. Let's face it, a string library is basically a string library, and engineers will argue endlessly over which mic/pre-amps/room are best to record them. But with Spitfire, for example, there's no way to strip away the baked-in room sound unless you try to deverberate, and that can be done with only marginal results. So it's impossible for us to know how much of the room factors into the sound—but I'm guessing it's a LOT. So, as I said, except for the room ambience, the differences are slight. Which is probably why they seem to layer so well.
> 
> As for LASS, I get it. I actually prefer dry recordings. That's why I like a lot of Hunter's stuff and VSL and why Chris Hein's new ensemble library looks tempting. And yes, you need some EQ and reverb to make ANY library shine, except for those like Spitfire, which do all that work for you so you don't have to learn anything about mixing and can feel good right out of the box (I don't consider that an asset). I'm sure if I had been given a few hours with LASS I would have fallen in love with it, but my first impression was this: do I really want to spend close to a grand for this string library?



LASS Full Bundle is of strong interest, but $749. and *no* Brass, Winds. That may be OK, but where do I go for those libs and be confident they will 'combine' well ???
I can spend much less and add several more Kirk Hunter selections ……​
Currently use a mishmash of decent, but disparate content: (_but maybe OK for now ?_)
*Audiobro*_LADD, *NI*_K11U, *KH*_Diamond Sym Orch, *SF*_Albions One, Loegria, Tundra, Orch Swarm, *BO*_Inspire, *Sonuscore*_The Orchestra, *Sonokinetic*_ 'many',* Stresov*_StormChoir.


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## sostenuto (Apr 24, 2018)

sostenuto said:


> LASS Full Bundle is of strong interest, but $749. and *no* Brass, Winds. That may be OK, but where do I go for those libs and be confident they will 'combine' well ???
> I can spend much less and add several more Kirk Hunter selections …… ​



I just saw this in Chris Hein post and VERY impressed !! Especially as I wish (as pianist) to play in as much content as possible … _not a strong MIDI guy_.
(edit) AND just noted that KH_Front Row Violins just went to full price …


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## Casiquire (Apr 24, 2018)

I'm still not following the point there. To my ears, LASS sounds way different from any VSL strings, which sound way different from CSS, which sound way different from Chris Hein, and I'm limiting to just dry libraries here.

Sostenuto, any dry libraries will do!


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## robgb (Apr 24, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> To my ears, LASS sounds way different


I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that.


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## CT (Apr 24, 2018)

robgb said:


> And yes, you need some EQ and reverb to make ANY library shine, except for those like Spitfire, which do all that work for you so you don't have to learn anything about mixing and can feel good right out of the box (I don't consider that an asset).



Just like InstaChord does for keyboard skills? A few paraphrases....

"Bought it about an hour ago and have been playing around. If you're a so-so mixer like me, this is a godsend. Opens all kinds of creativity, allowing me to instantly play things I'd normally fumble around for hours to get right. Purists will scoff, but hey, we do what we gotta do."

"I can mix decently enough with practice, have progressed to a certain point, but the lack of skill slows me down when I'm composing and, frankly, can often stifle my creativity. This tool allows me not to get hung up on that and play music quickly and easily without needing to spend precious minutes, or even hours, mixing."

"I don't think it's being a purist for a composer to be expected to know about basic mixing, but to expect every composer to know how to mix immaculately and to their complete satisfaction is, I think, unreasonable and wrongheaded."



(Really not trying to be a jerk or anything; just something to think about. Both, like many other tools, can be useful to avoid certain drudgeries, or they can be abused to cover up severe deficiencies.)


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## Casiquire (Apr 24, 2018)

robgb said:


> I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that.



You said there isn't a huge difference in sound. That's what I was referring to


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## robgb (Apr 24, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> You said there isn't a huge difference in sound. That's what I was referring to


Read my post. I was talking about the libraries I personally own—Spitfire, VSL, CS2 and Kirk Hunter (various). I agree that LASS has its own unique sound.


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## robgb (Apr 24, 2018)

miket said:


> Just like InstaChord does for keyboard skills? A few paraphrases....


Point taken, but apples and oranges to my mind. That said, I have a desire and a willingness to learn keyboard and hope to get to the point that I don't need any shortcuts to speed up my workflow. Check with me in a few years. As for mixing, I think it's far more important in this day and age. But that's just me.


miket said:


> (Really not trying to be a jerk or anything;


Sure you were. But that's okay.


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## Steve_Karl (Apr 24, 2018)

One of the best things I can say about KH and owning Diamond is that it forced me to learn how to get under the wrench (spanner) in Kontakt and repair things that were unfinished and broken.
I do like the KH sound, for what it is, but I need more.

As to the sound of KH. Every player has their own sound / touch / attitude / character.

EvilDragon made a harsh point about "proper violinist" ... ok ... I get it. 
ED is often a bit harsh, but that's ok with me. Sometimes, that the *character* he plays.
He's been very helpful to me and I can appreciate his "attitude" as I can sometimes also be just as blunt.

So back to the sound of a player and attitude / character.
Every player has their own sound.
KH is a bit rough sounding, but that's not "not proper."
He's got a bit of a gypsy attitude which is really cool.
It's different, but also very nice to have that character available.

The sound / attitude / character of the player is naturally going to be encoded into the samples.
There's no changing that. KH is all of the players in the KH strings.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
KH strings might not have the balanced wide spectrum that a large group of diverse players can bring to the performance. 

KH might lack the delicacy and smooth delicate polish and control that might be available in other libraries
but I can appreciate the KH sound for what it is, and it's very useful, but maybe not is all situations.

I'm heading towards SSO because from what I've head so far, it's got that delicate polish that I don't yet have in my tool box.


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## Casiquire (Apr 24, 2018)

robgb said:


> Read my post. I was talking about the libraries I personally own—Spitfire, VSL, CS2 and Kirk Hunter (various). I agree that LASS has its own unique sound.



Ah I read it backwards, my mistake! The ensembles, perhaps, but when we come down to soloists I think KH takes on its own character.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 24, 2018)

Steve_Karl said:


> One of the best things I can say about KH and owning Diamond is that it forced me to learn how to get under the wrench (spanner) in Kontakt and repair things that were unfinished and broken.



What sorts of things did you change under the covers in Kontakt?


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## Steve_Karl (Apr 24, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> What sorts of things did you change under the covers in Kontakt?



Dewdman42
Everything is documented in detail at KVR.
You were there.

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=225&t=371373


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## robgb (Apr 25, 2018)

Steve_Karl said:


> One of the best things I can say about KH and owning Diamond is that it forced me to learn how to get under the wrench (spanner) in Kontakt and repair things that were unfinished and broken.


I do this with almost every orchestral library I own. It seems there are always little problems here and there that the developer hasn't addressed, or plans to in an update. I'd just as soon do it myself.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 25, 2018)

do any of you know if its possible to change any of the key switch handling without having access to the script?


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## kavinsky (Apr 25, 2018)

is this even a serious discussion? the overview sounded absolutely horrible to my ears.


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## Steve_Karl (Apr 25, 2018)

robgb said:


> I do this with almost every orchestral library I own. It seems there are always little problems here and there that the developer hasn't addressed, or plans to in an update. I'd just as soon do it myself.



Do you own SSO, and if yes, has it been the same in needing repairs to almost every instrument?


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## robgb (Apr 25, 2018)

Steve_Karl said:


> Do you own SSO, and if yes, has it been the same in needing repairs to almost every instrument?


Don't own it. Only Spitfire library I own is Albion One and the Spitfire Labs instruments. Regret buying Albion One. I never use it.


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