# EastWest charging for a mistake!



## Russ B (Sep 3, 2011)

i didnt know where to post this so ill try here but please move it if i have used the wrong section.

ok here goes....

i pre ordered hollywood brass and like a couple of occasions prior,i used the european site and it pre billed in euros as i expected.
As the product was released,i was then charged fully and again,this was on the euro leg of the site and i euros.So far so good and expecting my HB gold to arrive from Holland as per norm.

A week later after it does arrive,i get a fedex bill for £85 duty and tax charges for import fee due to eastwest sending this from California!!??!!

So i try to call EW and only get the answering service so i leave a message plus i open a support case on the site.
The email i get back was pretty damn cold and within a couple of lines it basically says 'you should have read the dislcaimer on the site' and thats it.case was closed and im left for dead W T F!!!!!
No investigation into the account,no customer care,symphathy or understanding.Just 2 lines of cold stark, 'you didnt do it right' kind of response.

im disgusted to say the least.Im not stupid.i have ordered through the site using the european section when i ordered SO and then later the close mics,both came from Holland and both billed in euros = all good.

so having replicated this action for HB gold,im being charged a lot of money for a shipping service i clearly didnt request.
My address on the account is CLEARLY a UK address and the pre order was several weeks,so in all this time and right up until the process was completed,no one looked at the order any futher than to confirm payment and then process this on the US system.
why the hell should i pay for this extra import charge for a mistake i NEVER made?!

What got me more was the cold as ice quick email from Andrew and the case being closed.Nothing at all.im gobsmacked and soon to be very out of pocket as this £85 has come at the worst time.We had a loss in the family recently,i lost work pay and having this extra bill has just gutted me and more so the lack of customer care or concern.
very very poor from EWQL.given the effort i have made to explain my case ive just been shut down and pushed on........Not acceptable guys not acceptable.!!!!!


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 3, 2011)

That's utterly crap service, Russ - I empathise hugely. If something is sold from the European site and billed in euros there is no way they should be shipping from California and expecting customers to foot the inevitable tax bill. Hiding behind "you should have read the small print" is low.

First port of call - Jay, this is exactly the kind of story that will get EWQL a very bad rap, both the act itself and the very curt and derisory response. I think a proper apology and some sort of compensation for Russ' bill are in order.


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## lux (Sep 3, 2011)

yes, at this point a refund for the customs applied would easily close the case.

I can expect customs when ordering from the US site and thats ok. But not when ordering from european site.

I expect it to be case closed in a few hours. Jay?


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## Ed (Sep 3, 2011)

I think its ridiculous you have to pay import duty on sample libraries costing hundreds of pounds when you arent shipping hundreds of pounds worth of goods.

i tried explaining this in another thread and everyone acted like this doesnt happen. Clearly it still does. 

I would really liek to order something from EW US shop soon but I need confirmation that it will be registered as being only worth about $10 or something for the dics and packaging.


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## Russ B (Sep 3, 2011)

Thanks for the support guys.Regardless of the outcome,im pretty much done with EW now.
You hear a 100 horror stories and when you get hit with one yourself, you start to see why everyone makes such a noise about there customer service and general manner of conduct.
Its a shame because i do actually like the sounds,i use the products but cant hack this kind of backend issue and especially as its a financial issue.

Had the email started with 'im really sorry to see this Russell,please let me look into this further for you and ill get back a.s.a.p with some news,ican see you are a repeat customer,so your a loyal,valued patron we will try and resolve this as soon as possible'.......but when you get 'you should read the disclaimer'..Theres isnt any comparison with the approach is there.

quite disappointing to say the least.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 3, 2011)

Russ B @ Sat Sep 03 said:


> Thanks for the support guys.Regardless of the outcome,im pretty much done with EW now.
> You hear a 100 horror stories and when you get hit with one yourself, you start to see why everyone makes such a noise about there customer service and general manner of conduct.
> Its a shame because i do actually like the sounds,i use the products but cant hack this kind of backend issue and especially as its a financial issue.
> 
> ...



Email me this and let me see if IO can get you some help.

[email protected]


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## Daryl (Sep 3, 2011)

Ed @ Sat Sep 03 said:


> I think its ridiculous you have to pay import duty on sample libraries costing hundreds of pounds when you arent shipping hundreds of pounds worth of goods.


There should be no UK import duty on sample libraries. When this is charged it is nearly always because the developer has not filled in the description of goods correctly. You can get a refund for this, with a bit of fighting. However, there will always be VAT, and this doesn't change when ordering the goods from elsewhere in Europe, except that the % rate may not be the UK one.

D


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## Ed (Sep 3, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Sep 03 said:


> Russ B @ Sat Sep 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the support guys.Regardless of the outcome,im pretty much done with EW now.
> ...



Jay can you confirm there are no additional charges ordering from the US to the UK? Im sure others would like to know.


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## Russ B (Sep 3, 2011)

email sent to you mate with details.

very much appreciate the intervention on this and i hope we can get it resolved soon.


Russ


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 3, 2011)

Ed @ Sat Sep 03 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Sep 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Russ B @ Sat Sep 03 said:
> ...




I don't know but I will find out on Monday.


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 4, 2011)

Be sure to keep us posted on the outcome of this... these stories make a big impression on me. It all strikes me as a Ryanair approach to customer serivce at the moment - rude, "take it or leave it" and the sense of "the product was cheap, quit complaining". I hope this is an isolated incident which gets corrected.

On the wider question of import duty, I think the industry could help itself a little here - start shipping material WITHOUT licenses for a nominal charge, and get the license itself (which has all the value) sent online. There's no ambiguity there, and it would solve these issues at a stroke.


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## adg21 (Sep 4, 2011)

Stories like this really put me off potential orders from Eastwest. Please let us know the outcome.


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## FredrikJonasson (Sep 4, 2011)

adg21 @ Sun Sep 04 said:


> Stories like this really put me off potential orders from Eastwest. Please let us know the outcome.



I agree. But the outcome probably won't change my mind. A handful people over there really seems to have an attitude problem, and being on a small budget and on an even tighter schedule, I can't afford making business with companies that keeps making these mistakes. Even if many of their products certainly are interesting. 
/Fredrik


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## Russ B (Sep 4, 2011)

ill def update this post when i get any news and some constructive solutions.

personally,i think this example should be included in basic customer relations training as there is a clear way to approach customers with problems and it should always be with a neutral yet understanding stance until an investigation has been completed and the customer has been explained the efforts the company/rep went to in order to make things right.

Bottom line for me is,i didnt order using the US site so therefore i didnt ask anyone to ship direct from CA and then incur me lots of costs and duty.

If someone had of spotted the processing mistake,i wouldnt be so upset with the current status of things and if i had been told i had an option to order from the US,i would have refused and said its ok,ill wait a few more days and get it from Holland as per unless we are talking about no extra expense etc.

having itty bitty disclaimers on web pages isnt a great way to make it a fluid process to order in any case.if i have a history of odering using the euro check out site,why would i unbook mark this page and head for the US site??? it would mean going out of my way to make a mistake and put myself in a silly position.

Monday,ill await a positive customer friendly response and then that will conclude all my business with EW from there on.

All this for hollywood brass gold,which in fairness is spot on but cant help thinking i should have gone to cinesamples where they dont leave the customer for dead.
Product would have been downloadable and minus all this ballache.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 4, 2011)

Russ B @ Sun Sep 04 said:


> ill def update this post when i get any news and some constructive solutions.
> 
> personally,i think this example should be included in basic customer relations training as there is a clear way to approach customers with problems and it should always be with a neutral yet understanding stance until an investigation has been completed and the customer has been explained the efforts the company/rep went to in order to make things right.
> 
> ...



So wait a minute am I understanding correctly? Even if I get involved and get you a positive outcome you still will not be mollified enough to consider continuing to do business with EW?

Obviously i will do so anyway because that is part of my job and I always try to fulfill my responsibilities but if so, personally (not speaking for EW, speaking for Jay Asher) I think that's really lousy and I don't respect it. If I am misreading this, please however, ignore that statement.

Everyone, companies and people, make mistakes, but when a sincere effort is made to address them, we are supposed to be forgiving, at least in the Judeo/Christian philosophy.

That said, it may not be a mistake, I don't know. It may simply be company policy with which people are free to agree or disagree.


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## choc0thrax (Sep 4, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Sep 04 said:


> Obviously i will do so anyway because that is part of my job and I always try to fulfill my responsibilities but if so, personally (not speaking for EW, speaking for Jay Asher) I think that's really lousy and I don't respect it.




Even though you put that little disclaimer thing in brackets this still comes off as cold EW customer service, essentially adding insult to injury. 8)


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 4, 2011)

choc0thrax @ Sun Sep 04 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sun Sep 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Obviously i will do so anyway because that is part of my job and I always try to fulfill my responsibilities but if so, personally (not speaking for EW, speaking for Jay Asher) I think that's really lousy and I don't respect it.
> ...


'

We have both been here long enough to know that is exactly what I would have said before I took the EW gig.

I did not stop being a human being with my own feelings and opinions when I took this job and you are smart enough to differentiate when I am speaking as a company rep and when as an individual. If you are not differentiating in this case, it can only be because you are choosing not to and have an agenda.


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## Russ B (Sep 4, 2011)

i dont know in what way you are reading into this but i will make that part you mentioned clear for you Jay.


If and when this matter is finally resolved as i feel it hasnt been dealt with fairly when i did send a support ticket etc, i will then move on with my life and i dont think with all the hassle something like this causes, that i will return as a customer again.

Thats my god given right and if i am fairly reimbursed for this extra cost i didnt ask for nor deserve,then i will move on.

I dont think that attitude is lousy or unfair or anything else??! Im looking at this as an uninvited problem in my life i havent got time or cash for.I have mentioned previously,we had a close family member pass recently and we lost some work days on top of this so the stress of family loss plus financial difficulties mean lots of stress and tension.

in the grand old scheme of things taking it all into account,Eastwest are not the be all and end all in my life right now.I just want this failr dealt with so i can concentrate on MUCH more important issues right now.

None of which makes me a bad person or lesser,or suffering from any poor attitude.

im actually stunned to my core that you offering to help me and me continuing to be a EW customer is entirely conditional???!!?! So if i state regardless of reimbursement,im not confident to carry on a customer relationship with EW, then this isnt acceptable framework for your assistance? Im truly speechless beyond effectual words.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 4, 2011)

Russ B @ Sun Sep 04 said:


> im actually stunned to my core that you offering to help me and me continuing to be a EW customer is entirely conditional???!!?! So if i state regardless of reimbursement,im not confident to carry on a customer relationship with EW, then this isnt acceptable framework for your assistance? Im truly speechless beyond effectual words.



I specifically said that regardless of how you answer I will do my job and try to get you a resolution you are happier with.

But as a forum member, I reserve the right to think your attitude is lousy and nothing you wrote there changes that perception.


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## Russ B (Sep 4, 2011)

i feel quite insulted by that i really do.regardless of your forum status are you a rep for EWQL??? If the case is yes,then basically telling me as a customer who hasnt been treated right in the first instance that his attitude is lousy is a little bend out of shape would you not agree??

EWQL products cost a lot of money.some of the high end stuff considerably so and for the sheer quality,i dont disagree with the pricing,BUT,having said this,it still takes me a long time to save for these products.

If i did gather the cash for another big purchase,i would feel too uneasy that i would go through a similar incident and end up with additional cost,so my customer confidence is shattered.
My personal decision to exclude my future purchases from EW is my call as an individual and totally without the need for moral justification to be fair.

Im just a very honest person who tells it straight and as a consumer of these high end products, i dont see why i am being lousy about my approach and my caution given this issue.

i do resent the fact you are using the forum sign in status as a person to cloak your involvement with such a big company and basically insult me but pretending its just a right as a regular forum goer to do so. 

This whole episode continues to astound me on many levels!! Absolutely shocked.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 4, 2011)

Russ B @ Sun Sep 04 said:


> i feel quite insulted by that i really do.regardless of your forum status are you a rep for EWQL??? If the case is yes,then basically telling me as a customer who hasnt been treated right in the first instance that his attitude is lousy is a little bend out of shape would you not agree??
> 
> EWQL products cost a lot of money.some of the high end stuff considerably so and for the sheer quality,i dont disagree with the pricing,BUT,having said this,it still takes me a long time to save for these products.
> 
> ...



I will try to get you an answer on Monday. Now it is entirely possible that they will say no mistake was made and that is their policy. If so, then if you disagree with it, you disagree with it.

I have been on this earth for over 60 years. In that time, there have been a very large number of times when I was unhappy with a product or service provider. If they then acknowledged a mistake and tried to make it right, I always gave them another chance. In my personal code, that is the correct way to behave.

I did not say your attitude was unethical or immoral. I said it was lousy and I am not a person who accepts being "bent out of shape" as a justification for anything. 

So we may just have to agree to disagree on what is acceptable. But rest assured, I will try to get an answer for you on Monday and regardless of what then happens, I hope it will be to your satisfaction.


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## musicpete (Sep 4, 2011)

By the way: When I try to log into the european Soundsonline site, I get redirectred to the US site. I have to log out and try logging in again, only then it usually works. So maybe this is also happening for others and if they are not careful during the ordering process, where it is also not unknown (at least to me) to suddenly switch to the US site, these things could happen. Now whose error is it?


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 4, 2011)

musicpete @ Mon Sep 05 said:


> By the way: When I try to log into the european Soundsonline site, I get redirectred to the US site. I have to log out and try logging in again, only then it usually works. So maybe this is also happening for others and if they are not careful during the ordering process, where it is also not unknown (at least to me) to suddenly switch to the US site, these things could happen. Now whose error is it?



Since Russ was billed in Euros, this can't have happened in his case. In general it needs looking at though by the sounds of things.


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## RiffWraith (Sep 4, 2011)

musicpete @ Mon Sep 05 said:


> By the way: When I try to log into the european Soundsonline site, I get redirectred to the US site. I have to log out and try logging in again, only then it usually works. So maybe this is also happening for others and if they are not careful during the ordering process, where it is also not unknown (at least to me) to suddenly switch to the US site, these things could happen. Now whose error is it?



Usually the user's error. For many sites that have a "US site" and a "European site" - if you are in the US, and you try to log into the Euro site, you will automatically get redirected to the US site; if you are in Europe, and try to log into the US site, you will get redirected to the Euro site. This is based on the ip addy. Can't say with certainty that the SO site does that; Jay will have to clarify whether or not that is the case here.

Cheers.


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## nikolas (Sep 4, 2011)

If this was a pre-order, *PERHAPS* there was a disclaimer that the first disks will be shipped from the US (for faster service) thus the billing... ??? No idea though...


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## Simon Ravn (Sep 5, 2011)

Russ, that is really lame. Why are they shipping from the US anyway? Clearly a mistake on their part. Mine was shipped from Holland as it ALWAYS has been when I ordered from the European site. I assume that's the whole purpose of having a European distributor - to get goods faster and cheaper out to European customers. If they suddenly shipped from the US and I had to pay import taxes etc. I would get pissed as well.

It doesn't make sense. What does it say in the disclaimer then? That they might ship from the US - so you don't really know and I have been playing a lottery and just got lucky or what...? I pre-ordered mine back in July as well.


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## Russ B (Sep 5, 2011)

I know that i def did use the euro site as i have it bookmarked from the last time i used it and left it setup as such.

the billing is invoiced as euros which indicates it was a transaction made from the euro site and by a customer who would then utilise european payment.

if i was using the US site why would it bother to show the sale in euros? 
that would seem strange to me and at least start ringing alarm bells.

if its the US site as said and it recognises im a euro customer and then charges in euros,would this then not indicate the delivery would be inter european at least??

Obviously this whole post creation is me highlighting my unhappy transaction and the current state of play but i agree with some of the comments made that the system might benefit an update if it means it re directs to the US site and allows these sales to slip through the net and therefore incur a big additional cost after the fact.

i agree with the sentiments about the disclaimer,if it is lurking in the small print somewhere,then in my opinion it needs to be more of an active fail safe in the ordering process and not just a comment placed on some part of one of the screens.

you should be prompted to confirm you would like to order from the US if you have a UK or european address as that opportunity would then stop you from having a lot of hassle that takes time and effort to try and undo like am i doing now.


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## Daryl (Sep 5, 2011)

Russ, in any case you should start the process of getting that erroneous Duty refunded. Contact Customs and Excise, explain the situation carefully (because they can be a bit thick) and you should get a refund.

One more thing; do check whether or not EW charged you VAT. if they did, then you need to make sure that FedEx didn't charge you that as well.

D


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## George Caplan (Sep 5, 2011)

Daryl @ Mon Sep 05 said:


> Russ, in any case you should start the process of getting that erroneous Duty refunded. Contact Customs and Excise, explain the situation carefully (because they can be a bit thick) and you should get a refund.
> 
> One more thing; do check whether or not EW charged you VAT. if they did, then you need to make sure that FedEx didn't charge you that as well.
> 
> D



is this generally what happens when you make an order from eastwest? you have to go thru all this deal? if so then thats useless to me. is there no uk outlet that you can just go to if you want to buy this stuff? thanks.


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## Daryl (Sep 5, 2011)

George Caplan @ Mon Sep 05 said:


> Daryl @ Mon Sep 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Russ, in any case you should start the process of getting that erroneous Duty refunded. Contact Customs and Excise, explain the situation carefully (because they can be a bit thick) and you should get a refund.
> ...


This used to be the deal, but it should not happen since the inception of the European branch of soundsonline. It should also be possible to get the products from retailers such as Digital Village, and quote often they can give a better price than the RRP. Of course when there is a special offer this can sometimes only be taken advantage of by buying direct.

As to whether or not things go wrong very often I can't comment, because it has been a long while since I bought an EW product.

D


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## Mick Emery (Sep 5, 2011)

I've read enough, on this forum, to realize that EastWest's attitude toward customers is lacking.


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## legramophone (Sep 5, 2011)

choc0thrax @ Sun Sep 04 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sun Sep 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Obviously i will do so anyway because that is part of my job and I always try to fulfill my responsibilities but if so, personally (not speaking for EW, speaking for Jay Asher) I think that's really lousy and I don't respect it.
> ...



Well said, exactly. Jay - this is the exact issue at hand here. I've read this on forums so many times by EW moles, EW employees and from the developers themselves - it's not cool.

The lack of respect from you in this post towards a customer that has - frankly - been mistakenly charged - and then received a rude, curt, dismissive response is the exact reason I have never bought anything from East West. And I've come very close at times - because a few of the products themselves are outstanding.

You can't just dismiss people in that tone. You also can't expect anything less than a disappointed customer - who in my view has been pretty reasonable explaining this situation to us.

The internet decorum, attitude (both defensive and aggressive) from the developers, and the superior attitude as it comes across in forum posts - is really off putting and literally TURNS PEOPLE AWAY.

The fact that this has gone on for as long as I've been viewing forums on East West (2 years or so) is not a good sign.

If you represent East West here as an employee - never, NEVER start making personal comments to a potential (in this case existing) customer.

This is all wrong. On so many levels... :(


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## chimuelo (Sep 5, 2011)

This is typical BS from the EU.
I got screwed On my XITE-1 for additional 155 USD on top of the shipping. But quality desrves cash so I bite my lip.
Then my Solaris was another hand made expensive unit which I didn't care about price, but again 360 USD Pallette shiping with a total of 12 units, then another UPS delivery man with his hand out for 175 USD more.
This is why German companies are opening up manufacturing over here. To escape their costly taxation, and to make their products cheaper.
Better than China................

But my total for both units just for duties and shipping 725+ USD.....

New World Order Sucks.......


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## Ed (Sep 5, 2011)

US site... UK site. ... Why does it matter?? 

They should not be charging import duty on goods that are only worth about £10. 

You dont pay a hundred dollars of import duty when you order a few cds from the US and ship it to the UK. But for some reason EW is declaring that they are shipping hundreds of dollars worth of goods to the UK, they are not. They are not shipping you a physical licence they are shipping you a few DVDs and a manual and a box. That is all. 

If that is really the policy can someone give them a kick up the arse and tell them to sort it out because I do not want to be sent a bill for import duty just because they dont want to sort out the relevant paper work. Its enough to drive someone to piracy. Hell, let me buy it online but dont ship it to me, Ill find some torrent somewhere then I'll save money. Yea, that makes more sence.


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 5, 2011)

Ed @ Mon Sep 05 said:


> US site... UK site. ... Why does it matter??
> 
> They should not be charging import duty on goods that are only worth about £10.
> 
> ...



Like I posted further up, the libraries need to make some changes for this to work reliably. It could easily be argued that the face value is the face value cos the license is right there in the box. You'd need to just ship physical product with no license to be sqeaky clean on the value, then email the license.

It's irrelevant in Russ' case, because he ordered from the European site in Euros and so it should be reasonably expected to have shipped from Europe, which isn't subject to duty in the UK and is (rightly) the source of his complaint.


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## Ed (Sep 5, 2011)

I dont agree the licence is in the box. If my house burns down I do not see why i have to go buy the entire library again if they can see from their records I indeed did buy it.

And the licence could cost £500,000 but the program be shipped on floppy disc. Do I really have to spend import duty on £500,000 worth of goods? Its nonsence.


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 5, 2011)

Ed @ Mon Sep 05 said:


> I dont agree the licence is in the box. If my house burns down I do not see why i have to go buy the entire library again if they can see from their records I indeed did buy it.



Yes fine - but look at it another way. If someone else nicked that box, they'd be able to use it and it would be worth the full face value. If they nicked a box with no license, it's worthless. That's probably how I'd see it if I worked for Customs and Excise. 

We could debate this all week, but in the end if there's no license, there's no argument. And it's a bit OT on this debate really.


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## Ed (Sep 5, 2011)

If thats how it is then I suggest they need to rethink how they distribute sample libraries at all. 

The licence in the box should be a physical *representation *of the licence. It should not exist in a form that can be so easily destroyed.


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## Daryl (Sep 5, 2011)

It has nothing to do with licences. Licences are not subject to Duty; hard drives and DVDs are. Therefore Duty is theoretically payable on the value of the drive the library ships on, not on the perceived value of the licence. If the package is correctly labeled then there is no problem.

The licence is subject to VAT though, so even if it was delivered over the Internet VAT would still be payable.

D


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 5, 2011)

I forgot that today is Labor Day in the US, a holiday, so I may not have an answer for Russ until tomorrow. Also, last night I either contracted the flu or food poisoning so I was up all night worshipping the porcelain goddess so expect no more from me today.

I am sorry my attitude disappoints some of you but those of you who have been here for a while know that it is consistent with what it has always been. We all make mistakes; when we understand that we have done so, we should try to make it right; when we have done so realize party we wronged should be big enough not to hold a grudge, unless it was something truly immoral or horrific like a murder, rape, grand theft, etc. which this was not. This will either turn out to be a simple error or a policy that some here do not agree with. I do not yet know.

That is a code I live by both as a man and as an employee. If you disagree, you disagree but obviously I do care that Russ is aggrieved which is why as soon as I read it, I said I would get involved.


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## Ed (Sep 5, 2011)

Daryl @ Mon Sep 05 said:


> It has nothing to do with licences. Licences are not subject to Duty; hard drives and DVDs are. Therefore Duty is theoretically payable on the value of the drive the library ships on, not on the perceived value of the licence. If the package is correctly labeled then there is no problem.
> 
> The licence is subject to VAT though, so even if it was delivered over the Internet VAT would still be payable.
> 
> D



Thanks Daryl, that is exactly how I thought it worked.


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 5, 2011)

Daryl @ Mon Sep 05 said:


> It has nothing to do with licences. Licences are not subject to Duty; hard drives and DVDs are. Therefore Duty is theoretically payable on the value of the drive the library ships on, not on the perceived value of the licence. If the package is correctly labeled then there is no problem.
> 
> The licence is subject to VAT though, so even if it was delivered over the Internet VAT would still be payable.
> 
> D



Oh, interesting - all news to me. So when you say "correctly labelled"... what would that be exactly?!


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## Russ B (Sep 5, 2011)

ive attached a jpg of my account order and i dont know if this helps or not but worth a shot.

im logged into the euro site where i saved this screen shot and you will see my big bold arrows indicating the euro currency selection made by the system as,well....you know,i was ordering in europe,using a euro account going to a euro address so im happy with that so far.


then in the right hand corner the price for the total charged to me was in???? yes you guessed it.euros.

i dont know how else to prove or explain what i did,but i was def on the european site making this order.it just got to me with the very first reply from EW in my email inbox that just brushed it off saying i had made an error and should have read the disclaimer.

so surely investigating a case is the better option?? and even telling the customer you have been doing this and adding some symphathy to the crazy situation etc.
**this is in direct ref to the rep who emailed me and not Jay,as i dont wish to incite anything above and beyond as we got more than a little side tracked from the root issue and i want to put that behind us**
anyway,file attached for you to view.

thank you.


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## Daryl (Sep 5, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Mon Sep 05 said:


> Daryl @ Mon Sep 05 said:
> 
> 
> > It has nothing to do with licences. Licences are not subject to Duty; hard drives and DVDs are. Therefore Duty is theoretically payable on the value of the drive the library ships on, not on the perceived value of the licence. If the package is correctly labeled then there is no problem.
> ...


I can't remember the exact wording, and it is different for all countries, so if I was an exporter (and luckily I'm not) it would be my duty (no pun intended) to find out what the local regulations were, and abide by them.

If you are still interested you can find information on the Customs and Excise website, but I also had (a while back) a conversation with my local officer and he explained it all to me. However unless you have oddles of spare time with nothing better to do, I wouldn't bother. :wink: 

D


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## Ed (Sep 7, 2011)

Any update on this story? 

Does East West still make us pay import duty?


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## Russ B (Sep 7, 2011)

After Jays intervention,EW have agreed to a form of future usable credit note on a purchase but as for the actual case ive stated,they claim to have gone through this and have said i used the US site and therefore there sticking to there guns on the matter.

even thou if i go to the European site as i did,and log in,and check out my order history which clearly shows this HB transaction AND that it cleared in euros etc etc this apparently means nothing.

they said i need to open an account through the euro leg so i can make future purchases from there.

BUT hey uno momento......the previous sale made by me with EW *was* through the euro account i always had,just used with the HB purchase and guess what??? yes,the previous order did come from Holland....just not on this occasion which is for some bizarre reason is,totally my fault that they opted to ship from the US and incur me all those charges.

its utterly farcical and im not any further ahead into getting this resolved.

I highly appreciate Jays work here and i do very much appreciate ALL the efforts he had made trying to talk some sense into them but alas.....

I have lost my confidence with them now i have to say.A credit note sadly doesnt stick the wound so im going to go elsewhere as i just cant risk a repeat performance and especially as money is so damn tight in the first place.

I have uptill now remained quite polite about how i feel about EW concerning this but from here on in,politeness wont be on the menu.

Right then,lets go and give fedex £85 i havent got...


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## Mick Emery (Sep 7, 2011)

The amazing thing is...they'll never realize how many customers they'll lose just because of occurrences like this. (me for one...)
Short term thinking, I would say.


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## Russ B (Sep 7, 2011)

i coudnt agree more.

i didnt make any mistake so 'this' customer should be treated with a reimbursement for the charges and an apology for all the ballache.

i know a credit note seems generous,but when you consider i didnt make an error and the £85 going out now isnt helping my paying the mortgage etc,its actually an insult to injury as it means i have to purchase something else to benefit from the credit note.

i just wanted my money back as i didnt do anything wrong.it wasnt too much to ask but the weight of the mighty EW hierarchy has spoken in there multi million dollar office with a Roman emperor like thumbs down gesture for me.

with the way they communicate in general they might as well have gone the whole hog and just said "we got your money,so kindly f*ck off now,cheers"......


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 7, 2011)

Russ B @ Wed Sep 07 said:


> 1. but when you consider i didnt make an error
> 
> 2. with the way they communicate in general they might as well have gone the whole hog and just said "we got your money,so kindly f*ck off now,cheers"......



1. That is the bone of contention. After investigating, correctly or incorrectly they have concluded you did. 

2. I am sorry you feel that is how EW feels about it, because it certainly is not and they would not have made you an offer that even you say "seems generous" if that was their attitude.

Anyway, I am sorry that I was not able to get you a resolution you were happy with.


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## Ed (Sep 7, 2011)

Bump. 

I'd really like to know how much I'm going to have to pay FEDEX because East West dont want to file the right paper work. 





Ed @ Wed Sep 07 said:


> Any update on this story?
> 
> Does East West still make us pay import duty?


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## Russ B (Sep 7, 2011)

i can only re iterate my thanks to Jay.a shaky midway chapter behind us at one point but im always greatful for the help of others.

i think in this case Ed,what im looking at is a dead end and heres why.

EW believe they have conducted the sale correctly and thats exactly my standpoint too.
i firmly believe without question i made the purchase using the correct means and was billed as such etc right the way down the line which as i mentioned,following on from a previous european purchase from the same account/page etc.


so my answer to you is,your going to have to run the risk each time and hope it isnt mis handled and you end up with a big bill.

if for any reason you opt for very costly product bundles like HS and HB diamond etc,then the duty and vat etc will be considerable on top so its basically a roll of the dice for you and you have to take the chance.

that seems to be as good as it gets im afraid.

i sadly wont have the confidence to risk this once more so the credit note isnt going to be something im able to use as im still £85 down from a mistake by EW.

i wish everyone genuine good luck and fortune with any purchasing from EW.i genuinely think the products are superb,i love the sounds and do use some on a regular basis but i cant personally recommend them for my own reasons.

A big thank you to everyone who posted and contributed there opinion to this topic,im pleased to see im not alone in my thoughts and that a lot of the thoughts and feelings are shared,not only as it solidifies the fact im not barking mad and secondly because these issues are current and clearly some refinement in the purchasing dept of EW could benefit a revamp so no one is caught short.

thank you o-[][]-o


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## musicpete (Sep 7, 2011)

RiffWraith @ 5.9.2011 said:


> musicpete @ Mon Sep 05 said:
> 
> 
> > By the way: When I try to log into the european Soundsonline site, I get redirectred to the US site. I have to log out and try logging in again, only then it usually works. So maybe this is also happening for others and if they are not careful during the ordering process, where it is also not unknown (at least to me) to suddenly switch to the US site, these things could happen. Now whose error is it?
> ...


Hi again! Don't want to mess around unnecessarily long with this, but: How is logging in from a European country to the European site and getting redirected to the US site the user's error? Because that is what I described and that is what is happening to me every single time. IMHO the margin for error on my side is small, since the URL Soundsonline-europe.com is pretty straight forward.


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## Ed (Sep 8, 2011)

hey Russ, 

My point is far more than the US/ Europe site mixup. Its the basic principal that even if they are sending it from the US you should not have to pay import duty anyway. THAT is what I want Jay to confirm, but he hasnt. I guess because they are still going to charge for import duty when I buy from the US. :(


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 8, 2011)

Ed @ Thu Sep 08 said:


> hey Russ,
> 
> My point is far more than the US/ Europe site mixup. Its the basic principal that even if they are sending it from the US you should not have to pay import duty anyway. THAT is what I want Jay to confirm, but he hasnt. I guess because they are still going to charge for import duty when I buy from the US. :(



Let me get an answer on this for you, Ed.

OK, from the Big Dog himself:

"If European customers order from the European site, they get charged VAT (Value Added Tax); if they order from the US site, they don't get charged any tax by Soundsonline, but this is collected (at the equivalent VAT rate) by FedEx on behalf of local authorities in Europe, so either way European customers are going to pay the tax. I might add, we adjust the $/€ prices in Europe monthly to maintain parity, most US companies don't do that and charge European customers more. Our philosophy is there should not be a price advantage, and customers should order in their own territory as a matter of convenience. We are also in the process of adding a prompt to the checkout page that will warn customers with a European address that they ordering from the US site, to make it clearer, but there was no overcharge by soundsonline, the tax was simply collected by a different method, and not by us."


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## jamwerks (Sep 8, 2011)

For those in Europe, should be much easier to order from Best Service in Germany!


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## RiffWraith (Sep 8, 2011)

musicpete @ Thu Sep 08 said:


> Hi again! Don't want to mess around unnecessarily long with this, but: How is logging in from a European country to the European site and getting redirected to the US site the user's error? Because that is what I described and that is what is happening to me every single time. IMHO the margin for error on my side is small, since the URL Soundsonline-europe.com is pretty straight forward.



Hi again!  

So sorry - I was under the impession that you were accessing the site from the US. In that case, getting redirected from the Euro site to the US site would be the norm. But if you are in Europe, logging in to the Euro site and getting redirected to the US site, that would be server error - not yours. Unless you initially signed up under the US site, and the server recognizes you as a US customer.

Cheers.


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## Luca Antonini (Sep 9, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu 08 Sep said:


> OK, from the Big Dog himself:
> 
> "If European customers order from the European site, they get charged VAT (Value Added Tax); if they order from the US site, they don't get charged any tax by Soundsonline, but this is collected (at the equivalent VAT rate) by FedEx on behalf of local authorities in Europe, so either way European customers are going to pay the tax. I might add, we adjust the $/€ prices in Europe monthly to maintain parity, most US companies don't do that and charge European customers more. Our philosophy is there should not be a price advantage, and customers should order in their own territory as a matter of convenience. We are also in the process of adding a prompt to the checkout page that will warn customers with a European address that they ordering from the US site, to make it clearer, but there was no overcharge by soundsonline, the tax was simply collected by a different method, and not by us."



Jay, correct me if I'm wrong, but European customers with a VAT number (professionals and companies) should be able to deduct VAT from the taxes they charge to their customers. So, basically, in the end they DO NOT pay it. That's why there IS a difference between ordering from the US and from the EU. VAT is a tax paid only by end-users.

[...]

Allow me to add a "personal" side note about your recurring statements in this forum, the ones that sounds like: "_I did not stop being a human being with my own feelings and opinions when I took this job_", or "_not speaking for EW, speaking for Jay Asher_".

I'm sorry but you can't switch between the two identities that easily. You may be right in theory, but in practice whatever you do in this forum will be perceived as EW-related. You can't avoid that, not here, because this forum is your "job environment" after all, it's like your office. As long as you have "East West" in your name and signature, you will be viewed as an EW employee.

Let me give you another example to explain myself better: italian prime minister Berlusconi, when accused of having night parties with 4 men and 50 girls (many of them professional escorts), usually replies with something like: "My private life at nighttime has nothing to do with my role and office". Needless to say that 90% of italians, myself included, find this to be non-sense and offensive.

In a smaller scale, you're doing the same. It doesn't work!

Of course, just my opinion.

Best,

L.


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## Synesthesia (Sep 9, 2011)

It might be useful to note that when sending packages from the USA to the UK containing goods to the value of £18 or more you pay both VAT and Customs Duty.

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPort ... t#P17_1572

Also, see here:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/customs/arriving ... oneu.htm#4




> How much duty or tax do you pay?
> If you exceed the allowances and/or don't meet the additional conditions set out above you will have to pay the appropriate charges which may include:
> Customs Duty
> Excise Duty if the goods are tobacco or alcohol
> ...


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## Daryl (Sep 9, 2011)

Synesthesia @ Fri Sep 09 said:


> It might be useful to note that when sending packages from the USA to the UK containing goods to the value of £18 or more you pay both VAT and Customs Duty.


That is true, but Duty is only payable on the physical goods shipped, so in the case of a sample library delivered on a hard drive, it would only be on the value of the hard drive. There is no Duty payable on the licence for use of the sample library, and the sound recordings themselves have no intrinsic value without this licence.

The VAT should be charged separately for the licence, and this is where the problem lies in labelling, because either the VAT has to be charged at port of entry, or if it is delivered over the Internet, it is the duty of the customer to make a declaration and pay the owed VAT themselves. This last fact is one that is often ignored by some customers.

D


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## Synesthesia (Sep 9, 2011)

Daryl @ Fri Sep 09 said:


> Synesthesia @ Fri Sep 09 said:
> 
> 
> > It might be useful to note that when sending packages from the USA to the UK containing goods to the value of £18 or more you pay both VAT and Customs Duty.
> ...



Absolutely - and unless the suppliers charge for media separately that will continue to be a problem..


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## Ed (Sep 9, 2011)

Jay.

Am I right in saying that if I order from the US, East West are going to make me pay Import Duty because they believe I am supposed to pay VAT on the purchase? 

But Import Duty is not VAT, I'd technically STILL owe them VAT, even if I paid Import Duty!

Why is East West making us pay Import Duty for no reason, why dont they declare what they are sending as only worth what the packaging costs? Import Duty and VAT arent even going to cost the the same as I'm certain they are two entirely different taxes, so it doesnt even out anyway. This all seems like bizzaro logic.

Obviously I appreciate this isnt *your *policy, you're just repeating what Doug says, but its still ridiculous as far as I can see. If im wrong I hope someone can correct me.

Also, theres a very big discrepency last time i checked between the EU price of the SD upgrade to SD2 and Pro than there is on the US site.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 9, 2011)

Luca Antonini @ Fri Sep 09 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu 08 Sep said:
> 
> 
> > OK, from the Big Dog himself:
> ...



Luca, there are (mostly) smart people here. If I say something like "I am only speaking for myself, not EW with this statement" and they do not differentiate, it ii not because they cannot, it is simply because they choose not to because they have an agenda.

And it has nothing to do with my signature. Originally it was Ashermusic and people did the same thing once I took the EW gig even when I posted under that name.

I am only a part-time employee with a very limited role. I am not going to worry about it. I will continue to address EW issues as best I can but when I feel compelled to say something that may or may not be how Doug and the rest of EW people feel, I will make it clear that I am speaking only for myself. That was my agreement with Doug when I accepted the job. If others deliberately choose to misconstrue it then I doubt they would give me or EW a fair shake anyway.

And what the Italian prime minister is doing is just a _little_ bit more of a transgression that anything I say, no? Reductio ad absurdum.


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 9, 2011)

Ed @ Fri Sep 09 said:


> Jay.
> 
> Am I right in saying that if I order from the US, East West are going to make me pay Import Duty because they believe I am supposed to pay VAT on the purchase?
> 
> ...



Phhh. This whole area is such a minefield. I see what you're getting, Ed, but I still say that unless the media is separate from the license, it's gonna be a nightmare to formalise anything. If the thing about a license not being subject to duty is correct, then you'd need to determine what percentage of the total cost is which, which will vary depending on whether it is DVD or hard drive etc. Getting all this formalised and stuck on a customs form I'd say is tricky. And then there's declaring VAT....


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## RiffWraith (Sep 9, 2011)

Hey Jay - 

If you are physically in Europe, log in to the Euro site, place an order in Euros, have it shipped to your address in Europe, you still pay duty/VAT?


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 9, 2011)

From Doug:

"WE don't collect the import tax, there is no tax collected on his US invoice (only if he ordered in Europe); FedEx (or any shipper) is required to collect the tax on behalf of local authorities. This would happen with any purchase from the US, it has nothing to do with our company, it's the law."


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## Ed (Sep 9, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Sep 09 said:


> From Doug:
> 
> "WE don't collect the import tax, there is no tax collected on his US invoice (only if he ordered in Europe); FedEx (or any shipper) is required to collect the tax on behalf of local authorities. This would happen with any purchase from the US, it has nothing to do with our company, it's the law."



I know EW doesnt collect the Import Tax, FEDEX do, for the government. But* Import Duty isnt VAT*, unless someone can correct me on that? As far as I see it make no sense to make us pay Import Duty when you dont have to pay import duty on a licence fee. You are meant to pay VAT, I get that, but Import Duty is a different tax, right?. If I have somehow misunderstood what FEDEX is actually collecting or what Import Duty is and its relationship to VAT, then can someone show me how? As far as I see it, if we pay Import Duty we should *still *owe VAT. I dont mind having to pay VAT, I mind having to pay Import Duty when I shouldnt have to.


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## Russ B (Sep 9, 2011)

it happened to me,so who knows lol.potentially thats a yes,it can happen.

if you do claim to use the euro site and do all those things you mentioned,you can be told you were using the US site despite fact you logged into your european account.any re direction that happens in the meantime is going to be 'your' fault and any additional duty incurred due to the order being sent from the US by mistake is also your fault.

but conclusively you will be told you made a mistake as the EW system is apparently perfect and no one there makes things like 'mistakes',only the stupid customer would do that.

plus when you make the order and go through that farcical episode and dare to send them a support ticket and email trying to get this sorted,you WILL get a very short,curt and lifeless email with no love for the customer.just some brutal detached sentence and the case will be closed.

in the meantime,any efforts you make to clear your side of the story will be met with more responses from EW that state it was still your fault there was any re direction you knew nothing about and again,it will still be your mistake.

oh and make sure you read all the small print disclaimers and when your done,move along now please o-[][]-o


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 9, 2011)

Russ - I don't see how you can have been directed to the US anyway since you were billed in Euros. This is why I am so disappointed in their response.

Ed - again, you don't seem to acknowledge the problem of having both a license and a physical component... how would you resolve this?


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## Ed (Sep 9, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Fri Sep 09 said:


> Ed - again, you don't seem to acknowledge the problem of having both a license and a physical component... how would you resolve this?



Simple, unless I'm misunderstanding a fundamental concept here. Import Duty should be charged on "physical goods shipped" and the VAT should be paid "separately for the licence" as Daryl said earlier.


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## Mike Greene (Sep 9, 2011)

And THIS is why East West has the public relations problem that they do. For around a hundred bucks, they could have made this whole problem go away. Maybe even get a few _"Hey, that's great!"_ comments and make a few new fans. But instead, they play hardball. _"Customers are stupid if they can't manage to read all the fine print, dammit!"_

I suppose EW truly believes they're really in the right on this. (I don't, FWIW.) But does it really matter? Especially in a case so exceptionally rare as this?

Does Nordstrom give you the third degree if you return a shirt without a receipt? No. And people love Nordstrom for it. But for a hundred bucks, a hundred freakin' bucks, in a thread that's public for everyone to see, no less, EW is gonna play hardball.

And then wonder why Russ, and anyone else who's followed this thread, holds a grudge later.


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 9, 2011)

Ed @ Fri Sep 09 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Fri Sep 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed - again, you don't seem to acknowledge the problem of having both a license and a physical component... how would you resolve this?
> ...



The fundamental concept is that the goods have both a physical component and a license. How do you determine the relative worth of each, and how do you write the declaration?


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## Russ B (Sep 9, 2011)

yeah you have a point.i did try and push that aspect as i was told to open a european account so i could order stuff from this account via that leg of the site.

if you look in the pic i posted,you will also see the eurpean banner is highlighed which means i am logged into that part of the site already.

my account which is sitting there was opened a long time ago when i made a previous purchase which did manage to ship from Holland to my door.

i mentioned the re directing as another aspect im not responsible for.if there is a glitch that pulls you from the EU site to the US one and then there system of billing,its not really the customers fault....oh yeah i forgot,i should be reading small disclaimers....


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## Ed (Sep 9, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Fri Sep 09 said:


> Ed @ Fri Sep 09 said:
> 
> 
> > noiseboyuk @ Fri Sep 09 said:
> ...



Well if its a hard drive, what does the hard drive cost? $100-200 maybe? If its just a bunch of DVDs, then how much do DVD-R's and manuals/box? $15 at most maybe? If I buy some CDs from the US FEDEX dont send me a bill. 

The licence should be done separately. buying stuff from CineSamples I get charged VAT, they are in the US as well so Im not sure why EW cant do it that way. So they would charge for the licence + VAT like CineSamples do, then they ship the stuff to you and declare it to custom as only worth whatever is in the box, not the cost of the licence. 

If they are worried about people stealing it and pretending they never received it, then just dont include the serials in the box, have people get sent that stuff in an email separately. That would also mean peoples samples would be safe if their house was ever burgled or destroyed in a fire, because EW would just send them the saples again and they can use the same licence codes from before.


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## Daryl (Sep 9, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Fri Sep 09 said:


> Ed @ Fri Sep 09 said:
> 
> 
> > noiseboyuk @ Fri Sep 09 said:
> ...


That's easy. The physical component is the hard drive (or DVDs) and the value of those is the value of an empty storage device. The value of the licence is everything else.

D


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## Daryl (Sep 9, 2011)

Ed @ Fri Sep 09 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Fri Sep 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed @ Fri Sep 09 said:
> ...


Actually this is slightly different because we're talking about VAT and FEDEX should bill you. If they don't you're supposed to declare them to Customs yourself and then pay the due tax.



Ed @ Fri Sep 09 said:


> The licence should be done separately. buying stuff from CineSamples I get charged VAT, they are in the US as well so Im not sure why EW cant do it that way. So they would charge for the licence + VAT like CineSamples do, then they ship the stuff to you and declare it to custom as only worth whatever is in the box, not the cost of the licence.
> 
> If they are worried about people stealing it and pretending they never received it, then just dont include the serials in the box, have people get sent that stuff in an email separately. That would also mean peoples samples would be safe if their house was ever burgled or destroyed in a fire, because EW would just send them the saples again and they can use the same licence codes from before.



They could even deposit the licence in the recipient's iLok account as many plugin vendors do.

D


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 9, 2011)

An empty storage device... £100 for an external drive? Who determines this value? And how is it declared? I agree, Ed - separate shipping would save a lot of arguments.


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## Daryl (Sep 9, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Fri Sep 09 said:


> An empty storage device... £100 for an external drive? Who determines this value? And how is it declared? I agree, Ed - separate shipping would save a lot of arguments.


Who determines the value of anything? The purchaser...! Seriously, the value of a hard drive is not difficult to ascertain.

Really this is all so simple to sort out, but EW doesn't care, because it is easier to wash their collective hands of it all. I have to say I had this same discussion quite a few years ago with EW, and I sent them all the appropriate links and details of my conversations with Customs, but is seems to have made no difference. Obviously as Soundsonlone Europe now exists these problems should be theoretical.

However, I agree with Mike that they should have just said sorry and refunded the money. For some reason there are companies that just don't get that perception is everything. For may people EW means bad customer service and buggy software. It doesn't matter what the truth is. Until Doug and Nick (sorry to point fingers, but they are ultimately responsible) learn that blaming your customers always comes back to bite you in the ass, nothing will improve.

D


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 9, 2011)

Mike Greene @ Fri Sep 09 said:


> And THIS is why East West has the public relations problem that they do. For around a hundred bucks, they could have made this whole problem go away. Maybe even get a few _"Hey, that's great!"_ comments and make a few new fans. But instead, they play hardball. _"Customers are stupid if they can't manage to read all the fine print, dammit!"_
> 
> I suppose EW truly believes they're really in the right on this. (I don't, FWIW.) But does it really matter? Especially in a case so exceptionally rare as this?
> 
> ...



EW DID offer Russ an alternative that he described as "fairly generous" so I would no describe that as "hardball." Maybe "fast pitch softball"  

And that was in spite of the fact that he unequivocally stated from the gitgo that he would not buy more products from EW regardless of the outcome. Personally, both as an EW rep and as a consumer, I am OK with it.

And you have no idea how many of these types of situations EW HAS simply "made go away" upon having it brought to their attention. A LOT more yesses than nos.


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 9, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Sep 09 said:


> EW DID offer Russ an alternative that he described as "fairly generous" so I would no describe that as "hardball." Maybe "fast pitch softball"



Welll.... ahem but that is selective quoting a little, isn't it? Russ' original comment:



> i know a credit note seems generous,but when you consider i didnt make an error and the £85 going out now isnt helping my paying the mortgage etc,its actually an insult to injury as it means i have to purchase something else to benefit from the credit note.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 9, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Fri Sep 09 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Fri Sep 09 said:
> 
> 
> > EW DID offer Russ an alternative that he described as "fairly generous" so I would no describe that as "hardball." Maybe "fast pitch softball"
> ...



Right, but the key phrase is "when you consider I didn't make an error" and that is just not the conclusion EW reached upon researching it.

This happens in life. 5 years ago, my wife was carefully backing out of a parking spot in a garage. If you knew my wife, you would not she is very careful and cautious. A woman with 2 kids and a bunch of clothes in the back seat came speeding around the corner and hit her half way through backing up.

Now unless she could see into the future, there is no way my wife could have foreseen this and so clearly logically it was not her fault. 

But California law says that you may only do this if it "can be done with safety" and if you get hit, well, it wasn't safe. So the insurance company found my wife to be at fault and had to pay the other woman.

Stuff happens.


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## Russ B (Sep 9, 2011)

'stuff' didnt happen in my case which is the key denominator in this case argument.

i did use the correct site and was then successfully billed in the currency of euros on the euro site.

i did everything correctly that a customer should do as i have done so with a previous euro based order which did arrive from Holland.

regardless of the decided outcome from EW,im 100% positive my bookmarked site that i used performed as i would expect so any other re directing issue or otherwise,isnt my responsibility.

i have incurred costs as a result of a fair procedure on my part.

VAT and duty are 2 different issues that we already know.but if you pay and the final screen before you fully submit omits this VAT addition,then again once more,this isnt my fault it isnt being charged.

if EW send from the US when i ordered for this to transport from europe,this isnt my fault it picked up the import HMRC duty.

what i did say was although the credit note seems generous at first glance,what is actually going on here is EW not facing up to an error and dealing with accordingly nor have they dealt with me in a polite and warm manner befitting such a large company of high status.

i got a cold email and my case closed.i then had to publicly make a noise about it and you then intervened as part of the EW company and sadly im still in the same position.

ie:a customer who has done no wrong but has incurred unfair additonal charges and no one wants to say 'we will take care of that for you and hope you continue as a valued customer'

a credit note isnt even on the same planet as having additional charges reimbursed.
it does not compare on several levels,notably the principle alone which would have me back in pocket and an apology.

its a flawed system in my eyes and a flawed customer service dept/support dept.
and finally a very flawed final word from EW and the door shut on the issue.

whatever comparison you are making to an every day honest mistake with your wife having the car incident, it doesnt parallel with this case im afraid.

we are never going to agree on this,that much is evident but i know what i did to make the purchase and repeat claims that EW have researched this and found etc etc changes nothing.
i have incurred unfair extra charges and i still havent been properly dealt with.we disagree on this point as well but that it seems,is where it will have to remain.


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## musicpete (Sep 9, 2011)

RiffWraith @ 8.9.2011 said:


> [...]So sorry - I was under the impession that you were accessing the site from the US. In that case, getting redirected from the Euro site to the US site would be the norm. But if you are in Europe, logging in to the Euro site and getting redirected to the US site, that would be server error - not yours. Unless you initially signed up under the US site, and the server recognizes you as a US customer.[...]


No need to apologize. But you gave me an important insight: I WAS a customer already before there even was a division between European and US distribution sites. My first package from EW was QLSO Silver for Kontakt when it first came out. Ordered from the USA because it was not even available at Bestservice (where it would be much more expensive anyways). So maybe that could be a reason for the redirection....

Oh well, Jay already tried them to get them to consolidate all my accounts from previous orders (never was able to access my accounts for a new order so I had to create new ones multiple times) and arrange for all my old orders to be summed into the new account. I already have the new account but my old orders are not yet there. 

And I still get redirected to the US site every time I try logging in... Weird, isn't it? Maybe something is wrong with my ISP?


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## Mike Greene (Sep 9, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Sep 09 said:


> Mike Greene @ Fri Sep 09 said:
> 
> 
> > And THIS is why East West has the public relations problem that they do. For around a hundred bucks, they could have made this whole problem go away. Maybe even get a few _"Hey, that's great!"_ comments and make a few new fans. But instead, they play hardball. _"Customers are stupid if they can't manage to read all the fine print, dammit!"_
> ...


This exactly proves my point. As I said, _"I suppose EW truly believes they're really in the right on this."_ But as I also said, I and a number of other people don't agree.

Yet EW holds their ground and plucks quotes about Russ saying he thought the offer was fairly generous, so surely EW did the right thing, right? Yes, anyone can see that they've bent over backwards for Russ, otherwse why would he say that? And what's up with Russ's attitude anyway? Saying from the gitgo that he wouldn't buy any more products from EW? What a jerk! So screw him. And oh boy, if we only knew how many times EW has swallowed their pride and generously "made it go away" then doggone it, then we'd see what an understanding and accommodating company they are! It happens all the time, we just never see it, that's all.

Yes, clearly this argument (a paraphrased version of what you just wrote) proves that EW is in the right. And that's all that matters, anyway. That EW is in the right. If only the rest of us were smart enough to understand that.

And the thread continues. Anyone wanna take bets on how many pages it goes? And how many pissed off people there will be when it's over?

Seriously, when it comes to customer relations, EW defines the word, "inept."


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 9, 2011)

Mike Greene @ Fri Sep 09 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Fri Sep 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Mike Greene @ Fri Sep 09 said:
> ...



Well obviously you are painting this in the worst possible light, Mike. I could argue it with you further but it would be pointless.

I will however, make a prediction that if you release Realvox and it becomes a big success (which I sincerely wish you because I like you and was impressed with what I heard) and you are on the receiving end of some order problems, tech support issues, etc. you will find yourself if not in agreement with how EW handled this, at least a little less judgmental and dismissive.

Like most things in life, it is far easier to talk the talk than to walk the walk. When the time comes we will see if you are or are not, as they say in Texas, "all hat, no cattle."


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## Ed (Sep 9, 2011)

I dont want to add insult to injury Russ, but have you tried converting the dollar price into euros and see how much extra it is? Some products are vastly more expensive on the EU site.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 9, 2011)

Russ B @ Fri Sep 09 said:


> 'stuff' didnt happen in my case which is the key denominator in this case argument.
> 
> i did use the correct site and was then successfully billed in the currency of euros on the euro site.
> 
> ...



I am very sorry Russ. Although we have disagreed on some things, I think you are a good guy and I sincerely appreciate that you have publicly given me credit for doing the best I could on your behalf, because I truly did.


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## Mike Greene (Sep 9, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Sep 09 said:


> I will however, make a prediction that if you release Realvox . . .


If??? Oh, ye of little faith. :mrgreen: 

You're right, until push comes to shove, we won't know for sure how I'll respond to similar events. But I'd like to believe that I'd handle it better than this. Heck, with "Acoustic Kits," several people have emailed me saying they had problems getting their credit cards accepted and I emailed them back saying that figuring out the problem with credit cards wasn't worth our time, so here, have a free copy instead. I don't make any money off those particular sales, but I made them happy. Granted, it's only a $59 item (take an extra $20 off if you put in coupon code "vicontrol"!!!) but still, I think it's evidence that I'll be the understanding, rather than hard nose type.

But Mike Greene isn't the point here. What I'm talking about is how *this* event was handled. Totally bungled. I'm not blaming you, by the way. The errors were first in how EW dismissively handles people who think they were wronged. The second error was given that this issue was being aired publicly, it should have been that a call to the bat phone got an immediate response from the powers at EW. Sure, it was Labor Day, but if there's a fire, a fire that's on the news (forum,) then the sooner it's put out, the better.

Then, when there finally was a response, rather than lowering himself to our level and coming here himself, Doug had you quote him. That's a very cold and aloof way to handle that.

Here's what he should have done. When he finally came here on Tuesday, he should have come here himself and posted this:



Doug Rogers said:


> Hi Russ. First off, my apologies for the curt email you got. That's not how we want to treat our customers. Believe me, I would be annoyed, too. We've been overwhelmed with orders this last few weeks and a number of people are handling jobs they wouldn't ordinarily be doing, so some things haven't been handled the way we would like. We're working hard to correct that. Again, I apologize for this.
> 
> We're still trying to get to the bottom of why Hollywood Brass was shipped to you from California instead of from our usual European distributor. Quite honestly, we're so swamped right now that it's not something we can look into at the moment. But clearly you believe you logged onto the correct site and believed you were ordering from Europe. And your screenshot of the order in Euros is certainly compelling. How it eventually got switched to the U.S. site, I have no idea, although you can be assured we're going to fix that.
> 
> ...


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 9, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Sep 09 said:


> Right, but the key phrase is "when you consider I didn't make an error" and that is just not the conclusion EW reached upon researching it.



And that is certainly my problem with this situation. We've actually seen Russ' order, in Euros - it can't have been that Russ ordered from the wrong site by mistake. I suppose EW's position is that somewhere buried in the small print is the get out clause that they can ship from the US on a European order, and expect us to pick up the tab. EW are pretty fair at USD / Euro rates (far better than NI) so I don't have a beef with them for that, but Russ has paid the Euro rate inc VAT, and that should be that. Instead he's had to pay an import tax that he shouldn't have to pay, which is to most of us here totally unfair.

So my conclusion is this - don't buy EWQL, certainly not from their store. They have policies that mean you may end up paying considerably more than you are billed for and that is their prerogative. You have absolutely no way of know what you'll end up paying for your order until after delivery. That message is loud and clear from this thread.

EDIT - cross posted with Mike above, awesome post.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 9, 2011)

Mike Greene @ Fri Sep 09 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Fri Sep 09 said:
> 
> 
> > I will however, make a prediction that if you release Realvox . . .
> ...



Well, Mike you are not yet making a substantial amount of your living as a software developer and seller, so the burden on you is not analogous. If you get so busy doing this that it becomes your primary job and source of income and you spend as many hours a week as these guys do doing it, we will see if you are as sanguine.

Doug and Nick have both learned I am afraid that if they come here politely in a spirit of reaching out, they get treated IMHO very badly indeed and because they both take pride in the company and the products, they both frankly are liable to blow up in response. Remember, they hired me because I was already defending them, Kirk Hunter, Apple, and others. They hired me because 99 times out of 100, I am very measured, partly because of my temperament and partly because I do not have nearly as much invested or at stake. After all, we both know that is the only reason that I have not marched over to your studio and beaten the crap out of you


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## Udo (Sep 9, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Sat Sep 10 said:


> ....., but Russ has paid the Euro rate inc VAT, and that should be that. Instead he's had to pay an import tax that he shouldn't have to pay, which is to most of us here totally unfair.


Russ did NOT pay VAT. According to the screen shot he showed on the previous page of this thread, he paid €349, which is the ex VAT price. The VAT inclusive price is over €415, a difference which is hard to miss.


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## Mike Greene (Sep 9, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Sep 09 said:


> Well, Mike you are not yet making a substantial amount of your living as a software developer and seller, so the burden on you is not analogous. If you get so busy doing this that it becomes your primary job and source of income and you spend as many hours a week as these guys do doing it, we will see if you are as sanguine.


Wait . . . so because sample libraries aren't my full time job, then $59 somehow means less to me than it does to Doug Rogers? You're saying that because my main profession is "composer," not "developer," then $59 is a smaller deal to me than it is to a guy whose annual income is probably 5 or 10 times what mine is? All because he's a sample developer and I'm small potatoes and that somehow makes a difference???

If anything, $59 is a *bigger* deal to me than it is to Doug. And I've done it several times. With (until now) no publicity for it. If there's some reason why losing $59 is easier for me than it is for Doug Rogers, I sure don't see it.

Don't get me wrong, when Realivox is released, I have no intentions of being a patsy and handing out money to anyone who asks. In fact, my "No-Refunds" policy is going to have no exceptions. I don't care how bad Realivox sucks, or whether someone's credit card was stolen, or what sob story someone might come up with. No freakin' refunds.

But here's the difference: When that eventual dissatisfied customer comes along and starts a thread here or elsewhere, he's going to be told by everyone reading that no refunds is the way it is for all libraries. He might get a few people to agree that indeed, Realivox is the worst sounding library of all time, but the thread still won't last long because everyone will agree that "no refunds" is an established and fair policy, and no one would reasonably expect me to start handing them out. There are groundless complaint threads like that from time to time, but they die quickly, because despite what you might think, it's a pretty fair community here.

Now, compare that with this thread. Where Russ first got a dismissive email reply to his problem. Something all of us can believe, because many of have seen the same sort of _"You must be stupid"_ treatment from EW. Then Russ posts a jpg that makes a pretty compelling case that he reasonable believed he was ordering from Europe. Most of us assumed the response from EW after you stepped in would be that EW would pay for the error. (You probably can't say it here, but I'll bet *you* thought that would be the response, too.)

But it wasn't. A poorly executed explanation about VAT taxes was given, but unless I missed something, I still don't see any explanation for why Russ should have to have paid the import duty (a separate fee.) I'll grant that there could be a perfectly good reason . . . but where is it??? Simply stating that "EW didn't agree" isn't very satisfying. If they can't give a clear reason, then give him the damn money and not only make him a happy boy, but shut guys like me up at the same time. (That alone's gotta be worth a hundred bucks.)

As for Doug being afraid to post here himself, you can't seriously believe that if wrote something similar to what I posted above that there would be any negative comments, right? Heck, he'd get a whole string of _"Hey, that's great service!"_ replies.

This thread so perfectly illustrates what East West does wrong that it should be in a textbook in the "How Not to Handle Customers" chapter. I'm serious. The misstep by misstep process demonstrated here would make for a great instructional tool. In fact, that's the only reason I keep posting. To tell you the truth, I don't really care that much about whether Russ gets his money, it's just that I find this trainwreck so fascinating to analyze.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 9, 2011)

Once again, big fella, you talk a good game. We will see how well you play.


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 9, 2011)

Again, Mike is right. When I recently bought a Bela D product that had a glitch that made it not work correctly in K4, they both helped me with a workaround and instantly offered (without me remotely suggesting) that I chose a completely free product (that in the end was valued at MORE than the one I bought). Guess what? I like Bela D as a company, and they got great feedback here. Are they not big time enough to treat customers badly?



Udo @ Sat Sep 10 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Sat Sep 10 said:
> 
> 
> > ....., but Russ has paid the Euro rate inc VAT, and that should be that. Instead he's had to pay an import tax that he shouldn't have to pay, which is to most of us here totally unfair.
> ...



Ah yes so it does, but actually it is irrelevant. You can't buy from the European site (which we all seem to now agree that this is what Russ has done) without either paying VAT or supplying a valid VAT number which means you are exempt anyway. The point is - either Russ doesn't need to pay VAT or he has paid it (and it isn't shown in this shipping invoice). And of course he hasn't now been subsequently charged VAT which is now in question - he's been charged import duty.

Again to summarise... without any futher clarification from Doug, the summary is: "buy from our EWQL shop, and you may or may not end up with an extra bill at our discretion through no fault of your own, and that is our prerogative". If I'm incorrect on this point, I'd like it directly and unambiguously corrected from EWQL - and a further explanation into what was going on with Russ would I'm sure be appreciated also.[/offtopic]


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## bsound76 (Sep 9, 2011)

Hey Russ, have you considered calling your bank/credit card/whatever, and doing a chargeback?


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## Udo (Sep 10, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Sat Sep 10 said:


> Udo @ Sat Sep 10 said:
> 
> 
> > noiseboyuk @ Sat Sep 10 said:
> ...


You ignored my 2nd point. Seeing a considerably lower price than expected, Russ must have realized something was wrong. Why didn't he quit/cancel the order then? That's what I don't understand. o


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 10, 2011)

Udo @ Sat Sep 10 said:


> You ignored my 2nd point. Seeing a considerably lower price than expected, Russ must have realized something was wrong. Why didn't he quit/cancel the order then? That's what I don't understand. o



Ross would have to answer, but as I said, if Russ is VAT registered then this is correct anyway. One more point - I don't know about anyone else, but I don't even look at an invoice after ordering unless something has gone wrong until the annual accounts! (probably should I know)...


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 10, 2011)

Look, let's get some clarity here from EW. What are EWQL saying has happened? Since they say it's Russ' mistake, there are two possibilities:

1 - Russ ordered from the US in error (odd cos its billed in Euros)
2 - EWQL are at liberty to ship from the US for an EU order (odd cos it randomly penalizes customers)


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## Jaap (Sep 10, 2011)

I noticed when I logged in to the european website of East west that it gave in a very gray area above the notification that I am detected in Europe and I should log in there (which I already did) to avoid extra costs.

I clicked the European part again, was logged out, logged in again and now I was really in the EU section.

I didn't log in for a long time, so if it's your first visit after a while to the EU shop, just be carefull it seems, because it will direct you to the US site at first and the notification to go to the EU section is not really popping out.


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## Synesthesia (Sep 10, 2011)

£85 duty and tax.

349 Euros is about £300.

VAT is 20% - payable anyway, whether via fedex etc or direct to the hmrc - £60.

Fedex usually charge about £12 to process these fees to the end user.

So the Duty is about £13.

I guess Russ is out of pocket £25 as thats the difference between the VAT (which he would have had to pay, added on by the European webshop or direct to hmrc) and the charge levied by fedex.


Personally I would have just refunded the difference.

I have to say though, as a developer, VAT is a PITA for our European customers, as I have to process every VAT registered person buying something manually (thanks e-junkie!!) and if you want to claim back VAT on something purchased in Europe, as a UK vat registered person, the rules change about once every 12 months.

Cheers,

Paul


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## Daryl (Sep 10, 2011)

Synesthesia @ Sat Sep 10 said:


> £85 duty and tax.
> 
> 349 Euros is about £300.
> 
> ...


Just one small point. AFAIK VAT on good purchased from another European country is charged at their local rate. If Soundsonline is in Holland I think that their rate is 19%, not 20%. I remember that this used to annoy me when I bought directly from Vienna (many moons ago) when our VAT was 17.5% and theirs was 19%.

I also think that European companies' Websites don't make ti easy for people who are VAT registered to enter their number. Quite often it takes a few emails and a kind of back-door processing to get them to accept it. I don't rally know hwy, because there must be software that does an automatic check on a VAT number to see if it is valid. Maybe not. Hopefully I'll never have to deal with it, because my new sample library is staying private....!

D


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## NYC Composer (Sep 10, 2011)

I largely agree with Mike Greene's posts. It seems to me the small amount of money lost by erring on the side of placating customers who have legitimate problems would be worth a great deal more in goodwill. In recent months I have seen some improvement in EW's general comportment and I've hailed it, but to be perfectly frank, they're not starting from a baseline of zero when it comes to customer relationships and bristly responses-they're starting in negative territory.The fact that this small incident wasn't handled more smoothly feels like backsliding. I hope that's not the case going forward.


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## Daryl (Sep 10, 2011)

Daryl @ Sat Sep 10 said:


> Synesthesia @ Sat Sep 10 said:
> 
> 
> > £85 duty and tax.
> ...


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 11, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Sat Sep 10 said:


> Look, let's get some clarity here from EW. What are EWQL saying has happened? Since they say it's Russ' mistake, there are two possibilities:
> 
> 1 - Russ ordered from the US in error (odd cos its billed in Euros)
> 2 - EWQL are at liberty to ship from the US for an EU order (odd cos it randomly penalizes customers)



Sorry to quote myself, but this. I've made a policy decision never again to buy from soundsonline direct until this issue is resolved with an explanation that makes some kind of sense, and I suspect I'm not the only one.


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## Mick Emery (Sep 11, 2011)

"The customer is not always right, but we must never let him know that."


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 11, 2011)

Mick Emery @ Sun Sep 11 said:


> "The customer is not always right, but we must never let him know that."



Yeees.... not exactly the East West philosophy, is it?

OK, I'm calling it. 3 days to clarify this, and despite some high profile presence on this boards (where this subject also came up on another thread) not a peep about it. It's very hard at this point not to conclude that not only did East West screw up here, they also blamed Russ for their own error (and offered a token gesture to shut him up). After all, when given the chance to pin down what Russ' error was, there wasn't a peep to be heard. Not even an evasive "we'll get back to you". This is now obviously a public issue, and if there was a reasonable explanation, don't you think we'd have heard it by now?

Hmm... so let's get this straight. Not only might you get surcharged a random amount on your order either by deliberate policy or their own error, you're liable to be publicly blamed for it too.

Getting a "sorry we screwed up" out of East West is like getting... uh... no, I can't think of anything more unlikely to draw an analogy to. Getting blood out of a stone is like getting a "sorry we screwed up" out of East West.

On an unrelated matter, I see Cinesamples are donating 100% of their sales to the 9/11 memorial today.


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## Udo (Sep 13, 2011)

Udo @ Sat Sep 10 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Sat Sep 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Udo @ Sat Sep 10 said:
> ...


I overlooked that *Russ actually said he was aware he hadn't been charged VAT, when he confirmed the order (see below).* So it looks like he deliberately went ahead without paying VAT, thinking *"ah ha, a systems error, looks I've got myself a bargain here"*, and only complained when he realized that, instead of being the beneficiary of the error, he became the "victim" o 



Russ B @ Sat Sep 10 said:


> .... if you pay and the final screen before you fully submit omits this VAT addition,then again once more,*this isnt my fault it isnt being charged.*


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 13, 2011)

Udo @ Wed Sep 14 said:


> I overlooked that *Russ actually said he was aware he hadn't been charged VAT, when he confirmed the order (see below).* So it looks like he deliberately went ahead without paying VAT, thinking *"ah ha, a systems error, looks I've got myself a bargain here"*, and only complained when he realized that, instead of being the beneficiary of the error, he became the "victim" o



Well, kinda. If that's what happened, then it still makes little sense to me. If we assume that either by Russ or EW's mistake he was transferred to the US store... say it again, but why Euros? This was not the price converted from USD to EUROs on the day, this was the price on sale at the European, not US, store. And much as we can all tut tut that Russ didn't notice or care that VAT wasn't applied at that screen, it's a) not his responsibility; b) with online shops it's not always clear on which screen you get VAT and / or shipping added.

Again it's around a week now since I asked for some clarity here and none has been forthcoming. There are two possibilites that both affect anyone outside the US who shops at soundsonline, and we need to know which is correct. If Russ ordered from the US in error, was he falsley directed there by the site itself? If so we need to know that this is liable to happen and we need to look out for it (or avoid shopping there altogether if we then conclude the store is too buggy to be secure). If its the second option that he did order from the European store and at EWQL's convenience it was shipped from the US, then that for me is a reason to never shop there again as you don't know what you'll be paying for.

Not for the first time, a lack of proper response from East West is getting them into ever more problems, but I've all but given up getting one on this thread now. My decision to avoid all soundsonline store purchases stands til I hear a full explanation that makes sense.


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## TheUnfinished (Sep 14, 2011)

Udo @ Wed Sep 14 said:


> So it looks like he deliberately went ahead without paying VAT, thinking *"ah ha, a systems error, looks I've got myself a bargain here"*, and only complained when he realized that, instead of being the beneficiary of the error, he became the "victim" o


Hmmm... that's quite a claim. I know Russ and don't think he'd do that. 

It can sometimes be confusing using webstores that whistle along waiting until the final second until they tell you the actual price of what you're paying for. I have come across some sites that don't even have the final price on the 'basket' page, but the 'confirm order' page - to me this is a pretty shady way to conduct yourself.

Anyway, if anyone's really keen to buy an East West product (I am not one of these people after the behaviour on the other thread on here) there are plenty of other sites to buy EW products from that carry all the excellent sales.


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## lux (Sep 14, 2011)

You cannot have an online store hoping for customer to do the right thing. The online store needs to assure a user can ONLY do the right thing.

if thats not the case then the system is unsatisfactory and the user's right by default, no matter what his intentions are/were.

This topic should have been closed ages ago.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 14, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Tue Sep 13 said:


> Udo @ Wed Sep 14 said:
> 
> 
> > I overlooked that *Russ actually said he was aware he hadn't been charged VAT, when he confirmed the order (see below).* So it looks like he deliberately went ahead without paying VAT, thinking *"ah ha, a systems error, looks I've got myself a bargain here"*, and only complained when he realized that, instead of being the beneficiary of the error, he became the "victim" o
> ...



Sorry but Doug's position is that he has already given 2 explanations and no more will be coming. EW is however, as he said, looking into ways to make the system more foolproof.


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## Ed (Sep 14, 2011)

Jay can you find out why there is such a huge difference in price between the SD2 upgrade from the original SD in the European store compared with the US store? Its a huge price difference that is not explained by VAT


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 14, 2011)

Ed @ Wed Sep 14 said:


> Jay can you find out why there is such a huge difference in price between the SD2 upgrade from the original SD in the European store compared with the US store? Its a huge price difference that is not explained by VAT



I will ask, Ed.


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 14, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Sep 14 said:


> Sorry but Doug's position is that he has already given 2 explanations and no more will be coming. EW is however, as he said, looking into ways to make the system more foolproof.



Shame - as far as I'm concerned we've had no explanations that actually make sense. Therefore there's not really any other conclusion to be drawn other than to stick to resellers from here on (unless they announce a change in how the store works in future). Cheers.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 14, 2011)

Ed @ Wed Sep 14 said:


> Jay can you find out why there is such a huge difference in price between the SD2 upgrade from the original SD in the European store compared with the US store? Its a huge price difference that is not explained by VAT



Good catch, Ed. It should be fixed now.


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## Russ B (Sep 14, 2011)

TheUnfinished @ Wed Sep 14 said:


> Udo @ Wed Sep 14 said:
> 
> 
> > So it looks like he deliberately went ahead without paying VAT, thinking *"ah ha, a systems error, looks I've got myself a bargain here"*, and only complained when he realized that, instead of being the beneficiary of the error, he became the "victim" o
> ...



thanks mate and yes thats exactly how i would sum it up.
the beauty of hindsight means you could sit back and say 'hang on,this guy has tried to skip on vat etc etc' but from where i was sitting,i had ordered using the euro site and like Matt says,you are brought to a lot of varied screens where shipping or taxers are added on another step of the process.

at no point did i actively think 'im getting something for nothing here'.
on the contrary,i did know it was a pre order price at that time hence my purchase but i had no side motive and this complaint is brought about because a part of there system has re directed me.
i didnt make that happen,it just happened.despite billing in euros and using my euro registered account,it still happened.

now....the fact the total bill is £85 including the vat charges also isnt my fault as its not my job to police a web site store and its system of working,or not in this case.

i should not be held accountable for any charges that later appear as a result of an error i never made and yes that includes vat.

ill pay it when im asked for it on initial purchase,but once more,it not my fault the system latched onto the US site store and processed it this way.

same as when i buy something from a store and its marked up as a deal and i pay and walk off.i wouldnt expect the shop to call me and say 'sorry we forgot to add the vat and correct pricing,can you come back and pay some more'.

and im sure in a stores lifetime in retail,they do have circumstances where errors are made but how many people do you know that are called back to pay more???

and im drawing this on a sensible conclusion of having the customers account details,store account etc of which quite a few operate like this as we all know.

so if that doesnt happen,why the exception for online trade??? i make a mistake and a 2 seperate charges are incurred.

its not my fault it went via US so the import duty should be paid elsewhere.it wasnt my fault the page didnt list the vat when i clicked on buy.like i said,i knew i was getting a pre order deal as such,so i can assure everyrone,i wasnt being pig ignorant or sly to the facts.
i hope that helps solve some of the further investigative lines of questioning.i appreciate the point some are making.but rest assured im a genuine person with a genuine issue.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 14, 2011)

i hope that helps solve some of the further investigative lines of questioning.i appreciate the point some are making.but rest assured im a genuine person with a genuine issue.[/quote]

It never occurred to me that Russ was trying to game the system. I do not see him as that kind of guy at all.


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## Stephen Baysted (Sep 14, 2011)

For the record, today I too have received a request for payment for £96 from Fedex after buying the HB + Spaces with the HS users discount deal. 

I'm VAT registered so was expecting to simply claim that back as normal from the total 489 euros charged, but it looks like I've been charged import duty from the US instead (my invoice is in Euros and I ordered from the Euro site like Russell). 

So in effect, the total cost of HB + Spaces is circa £509 (not the 489 euros advertised which = £426) and to add insult to injury there's no chance of claiming the VAT back. 

Nice.


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## TheUnfinished (Sep 14, 2011)

Well...


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## Udo (Sep 14, 2011)

Confirming an ex VAT order, while knowing VAT should have been charged, AND THEN NOT expecting complications and delays .... you must be kidding!

Wouldn't you immediately contact EW to let them know there's a problem (unless you're hoping it will "slip through")??


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 14, 2011)

Udo @ Thu Sep 15 said:


> Confirming an ex VAT order, while knowing VAT should have been charged, AND THEN NOT expecting complications and delays .... you must be kidding!
> 
> Wouldn't you immediately contact EW to let them know there's a problem (unless you're hoping it will "slip through")??



Udo... does this refer to Russ or Stephen? Stephen is VAT registered, so what's the insinuation at the end? And regardless of who you meant, how does an East West error on VAT in Europe mean that they MUST expect complications to the tune of getting an order shipped from the States and then being charged import duty?! Seriously... WTF?!!!!

The European store clearly isn't fit for purpose right now. I'd strongly advise everyone to avoid Soundsonline Europe until this is straightened out. How many more cases will it take to get this sorted, I wonder?


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## Udo (Sep 14, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Thu Sep 15 said:


> Udo @ Thu Sep 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Confirming an ex VAT order, while knowing VAT should have been charged, AND THEN NOT expecting complications and delays .... you must be kidding!
> ...


It obviously refers to Russ. 

If you know VAT should have been charged but it hasn't, there's obviously something wrong and you contact EW immediately, if you want to avoid complications.

Of course the system needs to be fixed.

BTW, the US and European soundsonline websites reside on the same server (same IP address).


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## mac4d (Sep 14, 2011)

They should consider making the European website look different than the US & International one. Maybe change the color background from blue to something else for Euro site. Could also change the logo color. Add a US flag symbol, and a different flag for Euro.


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## Russ B (Sep 14, 2011)

with this second instance happening,it clearly needs a proper investigation as im sure Stephen like myself,has all the savvy to make this purchase using the euro site but has also incurred the same costly issue.

Udo:im sorry mate but i have tried to explain my standpoint in reply to the earlier queries but it seems this isnt going to resolve our different opinions on the matter so im leaving that where it stands.everything i have needed to say about what i did and why i did it have been said in great detail.

the next chapter is how they deal with Stephens case and whether they see there is a daft system issue that is affecting sales and adding great cost to peoples original purchase order.

im strongly wishing that at some point,EW realise the customer isnt an obstacle or pain but the reason they have food on there table and deserve a little more warmth,respect and some consideration as 'people' not just customers.


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 14, 2011)

mac4d @ Thu Sep 15 said:


> They should consider making the European website look different than the US & International one. Maybe change the color background from blue to something else for Euro site. Could also change the logo color. Add a US flag symbol, and a different flag for Euro.



The problem clearly is NOT a basic issue of people being transferred to the US without their realising it. I seem to have typed this 50 times on this thread, and it's the reason why I'm very disappointed in East West's non-response here:

1 - The customers are billed in Euros (which should be impossible in the US store)
2 - The products are shipped from the US (which should be impossible from the Euro store)

That's it - as simple as that, and nothing has explained why it has been happening. These two facts can't be explained by ordering correctly from one store OR the other... something has gone wrong with the system, or East West do this as a deliberate policy, and no-one is the wiser as to what is really going on. Apparently Doug Rogers is entirely satisfied with this state of affairs and feels he doesn't owe anyone anything, which is why all of us should avoid the European store.


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## Stephen Baysted (Sep 15, 2011)

I haven't really got the time to worry or do anything about this now as deadlines are looming very large. It does however point to an issue somehere on the Europe store side of things. 

Anyway let's see what gets resolved. 

Cheers


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## lux (Sep 15, 2011)

A simple CSV file with a list of european countries can automatically assign the customer to one system or another and avoid the mess.

no need for rocket science.


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## ChrisAxia (Sep 15, 2011)

I've only just seen this thread, and have skipped through it very quickly, but wanted to add that I recommended HB/Spaces to a friend who has HS. He logged into the European site, made the order, adding his VAT number, as did I when I made the same purchase. I received my order from Holland. He received his from the USA and had to pay import duty. EW also failed to send him Spaces, so something has clearly gone wrong in their system. Hopefully Michiel in Holland will sort things out for him. I know he is very annoyed right now!

~Chris


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## Stephen Baysted (Sep 15, 2011)

ChrisAxia @ Thu Sep 15 said:


> I've only just seen this thread, and have skipped through it very quickly, but wanted to add that I recommended HB/Spaces to a friend who has HS. He logged into the European site, made the order, adding his VAT number, as did I when I made the same purchase. I received my order from Holland. He received his from the USA and had to pay import duty. EW also failed to send him Spaces, so something has clearly gone wrong in their system. Hopefully Michiel in Holland will sort things out for him. I know he is very annoyed right now!
> 
> ~Chris



WRT Spaces Chris, I wasn't sent it either - but later found out from someone - I think Simon Ravn - that's it's a download anyway. But in any case I didn't have an activation code in the box, so contacted Support, and a day or so later they put the license on my iLOK - so that was resolved. 

Cheers!


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## ChrisAxia (Sep 15, 2011)

Stephen Baysted @ Thu Sep 15 said:


> ChrisAxia @ Thu Sep 15 said:
> 
> 
> > I've only just seen this thread, and have skipped through it very quickly, but wanted to add that I recommended HB/Spaces to a friend who has HS. He logged into the European site, made the order, adding his VAT number, as did I when I made the same purchase. I received my order from Holland. He received his from the USA and had to pay import duty. EW also failed to send him Spaces, so something has clearly gone wrong in their system. Hopefully Michiel in Holland will sort things out for him. I know he is very annoyed right now!
> ...



Yes, ironically, I already had downloaded Spaces and didn't need the boxed product. I was also emailed an iLok licence, but my friend received neither, even after a week.

~C


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## Simon Ravn (Sep 15, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Sep 08 said:


> Ed @ Thu Sep 08 said:
> 
> 
> > hey Russ,
> ...



... and that is wrong, if you have a European VAT # - which I suspect many people here do.


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## Russ Johnson (Sep 15, 2011)

Was going to buy 'Gypsy' but after reading about Russ' and Stephen's problems and reading Jay's, quite frankly, jaw-droppingly idiotic responses then, No way. Absolutely no way am i going to buy anything from EW now or in the future. They inspire no trust.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 15, 2011)

Russ Johnson @ Thu Sep 15 said:


> Was going to buy 'Gypsy' but after reading about Russ' and Stephen's problems and reading Jay's, quite frankly, jaw-droppingly idiotic responses then, No way. Absolutely no way am i going to buy anything from EW now or in the future. They inspire no trust.



Welcome to the forum, Russ. :lol:


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## mac4d (Sep 15, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Wed Sep 14 said:


> mac4d @ Thu Sep 15 said:
> 
> 
> > They should consider making the European website look different than the US & International one. Maybe change the color background from blue to something else for Euro site. Could also change the logo color. Add a US flag symbol, and a different flag for Euro.
> ...



And I didn't say that it was.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 15, 2011)

Russ, you're missing out on the most gorgeous sampled nylon string guitar I've ever heard.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 15, 2011)

Awesome that this thread is continuing. I'm munching my popcorn and enjoying the spectacle. I guess it's not the few Euros, it's the PRINCIPLE of the thing that got Doug's back up-why err on the side of making the customer happy when there are always more (customers) where that one came from?

I've thought about Jay's premise that one doesn't know what things are like until one walks the walk, and I'm afraid I must reject it. When a client hasn't been happy with my music, I've done it over and over and over to make them happy, even if I've already been paid, which has happened a number of times. Why? Because they are my client-I want repeat business, and I want them to feel I have left no stone unturned in the effort to make them happy.


I'm just amazed that customers have to bring these issues up in public fora to gain attention for problems that should be dealt with at the door, but as Nick stated-'The customer is NOT always right"....and there it is in a nutshell.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 15, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Sep 16 said:


> Russ, you're missing out on the most gorgeous sampled nylon string guitar I've ever heard.



You like it better than the Elfimov, Nick? I have Gypsy and I like it, but I dunno.


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 15, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Fri Sep 16 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Sep 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Russ, you're missing out on the most gorgeous sampled nylon string guitar I've ever heard.
> ...



And that, right there, is EW's core problem.

They have some amazing sounding libraries, using top talent. No-one can fault their ambition or recording technique. But they haven't released a single thing that doesn't have stiff competition. You like HS? Get CS or LASS 2.0 / LS. HB? CineBrass Pro. SD2? 8dio / SoundIron / Project Sam. Choirs? Requiem or Voxos. And so it goes on and on. Of course no 2 products are identical, but in many cases (like the Elfimov) the EW product is actually found wanting.

And this is the crucial thing... Audiobro, Cinesamples, 8dio, SoundIron, Project Sam, Orange Tree, Bela D et al... they all use a near-flawless sample engine and none of them treat their customers like complete s*it.

Cos that's what this thread represents now. I try to be even-handed and give the benefit of the doubt, but this stinks to high heaven. I've read a post of a 4th person elsewhere now with exactly the same problem - ordered from Europe in Euros and shipped from the US with import tax to pay. Never mind "the customer is always right" - these 4 customers CANNOT be wrong in this... it's a physical impossibility. That was obvious to me from the OP. But rather than admit a mistake, East West have chosen to publicly blame customer error, despite this being a physical impossibility, then refuse any future communication on the subject.

Despite their classy recordings with high production value, East West have come to represent the Ryanair of VI makers - tawdry, pile 'em high, sell it cheap, like it or lump it. And the bottom line is that if you sell something cheap enough, you'll always get custom no matter how atrociously people are treated. Little by little repeat business stops - enough bad stories mount up. Nevertheless, Ryanair are still in business, despite about the worst corporate PR in history. Can it last forever or do their business practices catch up with them in the end? We'll just have to wait and see.


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## nikolas (Sep 15, 2011)

Guy: While I understand that this thread IS actually about the customer service/treatment on the behalf of EW (not counting Jay, since I think is doing a GREAT job), your post feels somehow off topic and a tiny bit vile :-/ Let's stick to the topic and see if at some point EW will look into this *very serious issue* rather than spend time defending their actual products and marketing strategies, ok?  

And I'm seriously hoping that my post doesn't come off as "moderating", cause it's not meant this way: just speaking my mind.


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 15, 2011)

nikolas @ Fri Sep 16 said:


> Guy: While I understand that this thread IS actually about the customer service/treatment on the behalf of EW (not counting Jay, since I think is doing a GREAT job), your post feels somehow off topic and a tiny bit vile :-/ Let's stick to the topic and see if at some point EW will look into this *very serious issue* rather than spend time defending their actual products and marketing strategies, ok?
> 
> And I'm seriously hoping that my post doesn't come off as "moderating", cause it's not meant this way: just speaking my mind.



I agree with you that Jay is doing a good job - they need him. But Jay isn't enough to fix systemic problems. And is it vile to point out how badly customers are being treated? Sorry if that's how it comes across to you, but injustice pisses me off, and that's what this is. 

And I disagree that any of the post is off topic. All these things are linked. East West demonstrably treat some their customers badly and goodness me there's enough evidence on this board to show that. But they are still a hugely successful business because of their marketing strategies. And because they are successful, they (arguably rightly) have no imperative to change their customer relationship. To be fair, Jay's role shows that they are concerned to a certain extent, but Jay can only do so much as a mediator - in the end there needs to be some actual behavioural change at the heart of the business to stop this kind of downward spiral.

Doug said here, via Jay, that there would be no more correspondence from them on this subject, effectively the case was closed - a public rebuke that matched Russ' own private correspondence (the offer of a credit was on the basis that they were not at fault and I agree with Russ that it didn't go nearly far enough). This despite it being seemingly impossible for it to have been Russ' fault. If this is the way they want to approach customer relationships, then frankly I think my post was pretty measured. Every day that passes with stony silence makes negative posts like mine more of an inevitability. I'd like to believe, Nikolas, that just waiting and seeing if EW respond will produce results, but all the evidence points to the contrary - only by making a noise does anything get done, seemingly. For once I want to live up to my name! 

All the while EW refuse to acknowledge this even as an issue, there is a moral imperative to make sure as many people know about avoiding Soundsonline Europe as possible. People can either order through resellers, and thus potentially save themselves a huge sum of money, or chose a competitor's product instead. I'm certainly not the first person to point out on this thread that this is entirely a problem of East West's own making - at any time they can say "sorry guys, it does look like we may have had a problem, bear with us while we investigate". I'll still be annoyed that this didn't happen on day one, but it would be a necessary first step. Past experience shows this isn't the EW way, but no-one will be more pleased than I to be proven wrong.


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 16, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Fri Sep 16 said:


> only by making a noise does anything get done, seemingly.



And as if to prove the point:

I started a KVR thread on this too. Here's is what Michael Post of Soundsonline Europe has to say:



> in the past months I have seen 2 reports of cases where items were shipped from our US warehouse to European customers but both cases were clearly due to human error (once by the customer and once by our staff). With many thousands of orders being processed and correctly fulfilled, this is unfortunate but not a common issue that could happen to more customers. We do take these issues very serious and we're still reviewing these cases to make it impossible for such mistakes to be made.
> 
> And of course if we make a mistake and would ship out a European order from our US warehouse so that import duties arise, we'll take responsibility and fix it. Any such cases can better be reported to me: [email protected] than through a public forum which is only resulting in confusion.
> 
> I would therefore appreciate it if you would remove this topic at once.



The most significant thing here is that Michael has said that if this has happened, then it is an error - ie they don't ever ship from the US on purpose on a European order. This is a crucial piece of information. I suggest that everyone who has had this problem contact Michael at once and see if they can get properly reimbursed - if that happens then we can all get on with out lives...


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 16, 2011)

Problem on the European website found and fixed. Why this wasn't said a week ago remains a mystery. Here's Michael Post's full explanation:



> The Soundsonline-Europe order system is based on a customer profile. The currency of the profile is based on your first purchase from EASTWEST. If that was on the US site, you'll see dollars in your cart. When you opened the account with a European order, you'll see EUROS.
> Now back to Russ, who EXPECTED to have ordered on the European website, where he started his ordering process. During his website visit his browser was directed to the US site by clicking a link (for example support/iLok info etc) that is served from the US site. The browser stores the server in a cache, to keep the session on the last visited site (in this case US). So, when he checks out, he is in fact in the US store, even though his order initiated in the EU site. His shopping cart showed Euros since his EW customer profile was set to Euros. We have since this happened (that was weeks ago) changed our software and adjusted it to avoid this kind of server swap. So this is not possible any longer.
> His order was processed as any US order, the is no VAT (Sales tax) charged and he gets an order confirmation from the US website and when the order is delivered from the US he pays import duties. Just as millions of US to UK shipments are handled.
> The expected route would have been an all -European order where you have to pay VAT and not pay import duties. The net "result/loss" of this mix-up is close to nothing. VAT normally is a little lower than import duties but you pay either VAT or import duties. Both are between 19 and 25%, depending on destination country.
> ...


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## Daryl (Sep 16, 2011)

Of course the net result/loss will only be the same as long as the OP is not VAT registered. You can claim back VAT, but not Duty.

D


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## Ed (Sep 16, 2011)

A "credit note" is basically a voucher for next purchase though right?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 17, 2011)

So I got an admin reported post.

Is there a post that's offending anyone still? I don't see anything wrong.


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