# String players - alternate bowing!!!



## Leandro Gardini (Jun 15, 2010)

This is a question that I suppose string players will help a lot. I´ve realised that composers in general are over using the new legato features a lot in their music and because of this they´re wasting some more agressive and lirical strings expressions. Using libraries like LASS it becomes easy not taking care about the changes of the bows or even alternate bowing and we endup using the normal legato all over the phrases!!!
Well, I´d like to know how string players (that are using samples too) are simulating legatos in up and down bows. Let´s take LASS as an exemple: If I want up and down bowing what I have to do is loading "Vlns Esp Sus" (that means long notes without legato) and overlap them a litle in my sequence??? If so, the same principle applies to detached articulations like loure???


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## Rob (Jun 16, 2010)

I have no answer Leo, as I'm not a strings player, it just seemed a pity to me that a musician like you was left without a reply


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## Leandro Gardini (Jun 16, 2010)

They were all watching Brazil match in the world cup 8) . We have to wait!!!


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## Leandro Gardini (Jun 18, 2010)

Nothing???No string player can have any input to it???


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## Hannes_F (Jun 19, 2010)

leogardini @ Tue Jun 15 said:


> Well, I´d like to know how string players (that are using samples too) are simulating legatos in up and down bows.



Detaché is indeed a forgotten item in string libraries, although it is the default on a real (bowed) string instrument. But nobody seems to notice or care, only people that have at least some contact with real orchestras. I have helped myself at times with loading the same patch twice into a player and triggering that from a different midi track. Hope that helps, Hannes


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## Markus S (Jun 21, 2010)

Well, technically speaking, there shouldn't be an audible difference between up and down strokes. It depends on the musical context of course, but except for some strokes (very hard accents at the frog, that are usually down strokes), you can make exactly the same sounds using up and down strokes. It's not natural if you use the whole bow, because you have a lot more weight near the frog (where you hold the bow) than at the upper half of the bow, but string players work very hard to even out the sound perfectly.

So using up and down strokes comes down to have one variation of the same note.

"Does legato make sense in detaché style", is a good question. Again, "technically", string players will work very hard to really separate the notes, so if there is an "involuntary" legato, it should not be too loud. You may want to leave some very short space between the notes (as when changing the position), when emulating this style.

Don't forget that string player very often switch between legato notes and detaché notes, that's natural to do, as you can use only so many legato notes on one bow. If you want to do it perfectly, you have to ask yourself how many notes you want to (or can) put on one bow (one stroke). Then you will have to ask yourself when you want to change the direction of the bow (no need to use a specific sample for this, if you ask me). The change happens very often on the accent of a beat. So the first note after changing the direction of the bow, should not be played legato.

An example : You can have 3 legato notes on the down stroke, then play just one detaché note on the upstroke (to get the bow back into the initial position), and repeat that figure. A good violin player can make a downstroke accent sound exactly the same as the upstroke accent in this figure.


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## Aquatone (Jun 21, 2010)

Hi Leo,

I should mention that the differences, I notice, are mainly in the attack phase of the note. They are subtle and totally my opinion. It is true that a good player can minimize these changes in bow stroke. They work very hard to master this. Personally, I notice a difference. If you observe the tonal changes during a tremolo, then the possibility of tonal variation is evident.

I agree with you on your observations about the legato. The percussive element of the differing attacks are very expressive and should be explored.

Some great advice is in Book X p.484. You have probably read this and that's why you are asking the question. I would spend time with some string players. Record them, take notes, and get their opinion. Show them what you are doing. Many of them won't be doing sample based composing, but most I've worked with are fascinated and are eager to help. You will learn more in a few hours than you will in a year from an orchestration book or forum 

Most developers choose not to offer complete alternate bowing…I guess they know best :-( Other than rudimentary advice on detaching the notes, a synthesized emulation is uncharted territory. Many composers in the sampling world don't find it a necessity. For certain types of writing, the bow change may do nothing for the line (in a mockup). The easiest solution is to try a library that offers the both down and up bows. If you find the differences worthy then try to bring them back to LASS. It will involve things I mentioned in my previous post.

Your question is about the "how". When I get some time. I'll try to emulate the alt. bowing in SISS and PM you or something. I may have to come up with a script or a mod wheel filter. I think we will be on our own on this one.

Even though this goes against the purpose of this forum, David and I agreed one night, it is better to spend less time on a mockup and more time getting our work to real players.


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## Thonex (Jun 21, 2010)

Markus S @ Mon Jun 21 said:


> Well, technically speaking, there shouldn't be an audible difference between up and down strokes.


This is true. 

When consulting with top string players before recording LASS, this was one of many questions I wanted answered to my satisfaction. Here is the general summation of what they all said:

"We spend our entire lives perfecting our bowing techniques so that you should not be able to tell the difference between an up bow or down bow."

In the case of LASS... if you hold down your sustain pedal and play the note again... you get a "rebow"... and depending on how hard you play... you will get a more or less pronounced attack of the rebow. If you want to add more variety, you can turn on the A.M.G. portion of the script and set it to A.M.G. Leg+Sus or A.M.G. Sus.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,

Andrew K


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## germancomponist (Jun 22, 2010)

An interesting thread, thanks Leo!

A while back I opend this thread: http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16761 because on the Philharmonia Orchestra`s website you can listen to many good samples from the real instruments. But I think nobody here got it...... . o/~


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## Leandro Gardini (Jun 22, 2010)

Hey guys, thank you all for your input. I don´t have a lot of time to write now but I´l leave a general message!!!
What I´m looking for is not really the difference between down and up bows. I know that with good players the difference must not the audible, but I´m more concerned about simulating detached articulations!!!
Here there are a nice example of loure http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sjsVE-AznM it starts at 26 seconds!!!
Se also Adler´s orchestration book third edition page 21. There are two nice examples of non legato fhrases. I can go on and on giving exemples because it´s a very common way of writing/playing. How can them be simulated? Does the string make any kind of portamento whille playing detached articulations? If not, is it just a matter of turning off the legato? I guess not because I´m not getting convincing results!!!


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## RiffWraith (Jun 22, 2010)

Thonex @ Mon Jun 21 said:


> Markus S @ Mon Jun 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, technically speaking, there shouldn't be an audible difference between up and down strokes.
> ...



Very surprising. The violin players I have spoken to (tho admittedly, not for the same purposes as you Andrew) have all told me there is a slight audible difference. And think about it - some composers actually notate up vs. down bow. Why do they do that? Well, it ain't to make the string players' lives easier - that's for sure.

Cheers.


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## Narval (Jun 22, 2010)

RiffWraith @ Tue Jun 22 said:


> Thonex @ Mon Jun 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Markus S @ Mon Jun 21 said:
> ...


Well, surprisingly or not, good composers do that usually for ensuring certain effects while making players' lives actually easier. For example, there are some specific circumstances when a certain effect is easier to be achieved with downstrokes: chords, a series of repeated and separated accents, etc. Or, sometimes the composer wants the sound of an upwards chord. But the truth remains that in most situations downs _shouldn't_ sound different than ups. And up downs are normally no one's business but the player's.


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## synergy543 (Jun 22, 2010)

Hannes_F @ Sat Jun 19 said:


> I have helped myself at times with loading the same patch twice into a player and triggering that from a different midi track. Hope that helps, Hannes


Hannes, can you please explain what you mean in more detail? 

How do you avoid comb filtering or phasing if you're using the same sample? I think it was actually an old Leogardi trick to eliminate the machine gun effect to play a second note on a different sample and use the pitch bend to push the pitch back up (thus same pitch but two completely different samples). 

Is this what you meant or something else?


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## Leandro Gardini (Jun 22, 2010)

Aquatone @ Mon Jun 21 said:


> Hi Leo,
> 
> 
> Some great advice is in Book X p.484. You have probably read this and that's why you are asking the question. I would spend time with some string players. Record them, take notes, and get their opinion. Show them what you are doing. Many of them won't be doing sample based composing, but most I've worked with are fascinated and are eager to help. You will learn more in a few hours than you will in a year from an orchestration book or forum


Actually I haven´t been there yet. When I finished book VIII I decided to go directly to book XI. Of course, in order to be a graduate I need to go back to book IX and X and than go ahead to book XII!!!
I´ve read what´s there and I agree. This is exactly what I´m looking for. Information from real players!!!
Actually I got this question because I´m doing Cinematic Orchestration. There you can find valuable informations but it´s far from being all you need to know. I´ve been getting deep in strings technique lately and this is one of the questions I got after pondering!!!


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## Leandro Gardini (Jun 22, 2010)

Thonex @ Mon Jun 21 said:


> Markus S @ Mon Jun 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, technically speaking, there shouldn't be an audible difference between up and down strokes.
> ...


Andrew, this is a nice feature I was missing in your library. Thank for that, I tested and it really works nice, but actually, what I´m mostly concerned is not a rebow on the same note but detache on different notes!!!


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## Leandro Gardini (Jun 22, 2010)

synergy543 @ Tue Jun 22 said:


> Hannes_F @ Sat Jun 19 said:
> 
> 
> > I have helped myself at times with loading the same patch twice into a player and triggering that from a different midi track. Hope that helps, Hannes
> ...


I´m glad to see there are someone that remember I was the first guy to come up with this trick. Actually today all the libraries are using this technique. The LASS A.M.G is based on this technique I think...

...and I´m not receiving a penny of royalties for that :shock: !!!


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## synergy543 (Jun 23, 2010)

leogardini @ Tue Jun 22 said:


> synergy543 @ Tue Jun 22 said:
> 
> 
> > How do you avoid comb filtering or phasing if you're using the same sample? I think it was actually an old Leogardi trick to eliminate the machine gun effect to play a second note on a different sample and use the pitch bend to push the pitch back up (thus same pitch but two completely different samples).
> ...


Hey I'm glad I remembered correctly (means the old noggin's still working :D ). When they destroyed the entire Soundsonline forum over at NS, they destroyed a goldmine of sampling information such as this. :twisted: I spent a lot of time reading those files learning tips and tricks from you early sampling pioneers. I'm a late-comer to the sampling party. It sounds like I really missed the party too - those days were lively with TJ, Donnie, and some other lively characters like the old wild-west outlaws. =o Today, in comparison we just have a group of rather tame law-obiding citizens who just gently peck at each other. 0oD


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## Markus S (Jun 23, 2010)

RiffWraith @ Tue Jun 22 said:


> Thonex @ Mon Jun 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Markus S @ Mon Jun 21 said:
> ...



They are not notating the up and down strokes to vary the sound, as you would notate a marcato, a flutter, or a sul ponticello. It is for technical reasons, some parts are easier and more natural to play with a certain combination of up and down strokes. So the composer is suggesting the easiest way to get it played.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 23, 2010)

RiffWraith, if you don't indicate the bowings then that means every note is alternated - as I see Hannes already said! So you have to indicate bowings.

The other reasons for doing that are pretty clear: to avoid anarchy with them all bowing in different directions, and for obvious musical reasons. In orchestras, the first chair will often go through the bowings with the other construction workers if they're not indicated - or if they're not working.

And while upbows and downbows don't necessarily sound different, it would be weird psychologically not to hit a massively accented doublestop on a downbeat with a downbow at the heel of the bow. Etc. etc. etc.

That's with real string sections, though. With samples you only care about the sound, not how it's created.


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## RiffWraith (Jun 23, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jun 23 said:


> RiffWraith, if you don't indicate the bowings then that means every note is alternated - as I see Hannes already said! So you have to indicate bowings.
> 
> The other reasons for doing that are pretty clear: to avoid anarchy with them all bowing in different directions....



Well, as far as I understand it, that would not happen. When not notated, the first note is always a downbow, furthermore - yes, every note is alternated when not notated - so you would not have this "anarchy" anyway - good term, tho!  



Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jun 23 said:


> With samples you only care about the sound, not how it's created.



Well, depends on who you are. Maybe you do nto care - which is absolutely fine - but I do care, and I would imagine that at least a few others might as well.



Markus S @ Wed Jun 23 said:


> They are not notating the up and down strokes to vary the sound, as you would notate a marcato, a flutter, or a sul ponticello. It is for technical reasons, some parts are easier and more natural to play with a certain combination of up and down strokes.



Ok, I sorta buy that part - but the "the composer is suggesting the easiest way to get it played" I don't. If the composer is not looking for a specific sound/timbre/whatever, he/she is not going to take the time to notate the score in order to make it easier for the musicians. 

Cheers.


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## Hannes_F (Jun 23, 2010)

leogardini @ Tue Jun 15 said:


> Well, I´d like to know how string players (that are using samples too) are simulating legatos in up and down bows.



I just noticed that I answered a question that you did not really ask ... after your introduction I thought you were after detachés. But you are really asking about the difference in legato lines between up and down bows as it seems, right?

It is true, like some have said, that professional string players train to make this difference virtually non-existent. But that is only one half of the story because this can strictly only be achieved theoretically, and also only within a certain middle range of volume and speed. The more things get away from the comfort zone the more there will a difference, most audible is a stronger attack on the downbow combined with a decrescendo.

Now this might seem to be a technical inconvenience but if used in a clever way it actually _helps _a lot for playing musically. It is like surfing, if you hit the wave right it helps you more than flat water would do. As I said, training the difference away is one thing but using it to your benefit is even better.

As a general observation I even think that the apparent disability to produce strictly constant notes is one main reason why strings are playing more or less from beginning to the end in classical symphonies and it always keeps being interesting. While probably nobody wants to hear a hurdy-gurdy orchestra for more than a few minutes although it can produce constant notes easily. 

So obviously a handicap (and the combination of overcoming it and using it like following wind) has turned out historically to be an advantage ... which is remarkeable.

Leo, regarding your question how to simulate that ... we return to the old "always ride the parameters". Best thing we can do is to add an attack now and then if we think it is a forte downbow plus ride the modwheel according the the tides. HTH Hannes


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## Hannes_F (Jun 23, 2010)

One more remark: Bowing decisions are a science in themselves and also quite personal. As a composer if you are not absolutely sure what you are doing I suggest you don't notate them because most likely they will be wrong. There are odd things, one example: Contradictory than what is normal in certain situations an upbow will produce a sharper attack than it is possible on a downbow. So maybe you write a downbow in good belief but your concert master will then have to revise that.

It makes much more sense if you indicate slurs that have a musical meaning ... even if they are long (and your concert master will then add bow changes).

But in the moment you want to simulate the bowing with samples you are your own concert master and ideally should decide on the ebb and flow. This will be then one of more possible interpretations ... and maybe a good string player would have found a different one ... but an interpretation is always better than no interpretation. Decisions!


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## Thonex (Jun 23, 2010)

RiffWraith @ Tue Jun 22 said:


> Very surprising. The violin players I have spoken to (tho admittedly, not for the same purposes as you Andrew) have all told me there is a slight audible difference. And think about it - some composers actually notate up vs. down bow. Why do they do that? Well, it ain't to make the string players' lives easier - that's for sure.
> 
> Cheers.



Did you just call my string players liars?? :lol: >8o ~o) 

I think we're talking about 2 different things. For what you are talking about, refer to Hannes' posts above. He covers it better than I could have.

Cheers,

Andrew K


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## Thonex (Jun 23, 2010)

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## Leandro Gardini (Jun 24, 2010)

Thonex @ Wed Jun 23 said:


> leogardini @ Tue Jun 22 said:
> 
> 
> > I´m glad to see there are someone that remember I was the first guy to come up with this trick. Actually today all the libraries are using this technique. The LASS A.M.G is based on this technique I think...
> ...


The topic doens´t exist anymore. It´s a very old thread in the old NS before the several banishments start to happen. Good times!!!
I´ve never writen a tutorial, a scripts (it didn´t exist on that time) or anything likes this for this technique. I just was naivy enough to come up with this idea and open a new thread giving away my gold  . After more than one year later the first tutorial appeared here on VI!!!


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## Leandro Gardini (Jun 24, 2010)

Hannes_F @ Wed Jun 23 said:


> leogardini @ Tue Jun 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I´d like to know how string players (that are using samples too) are simulating legatos in up and down bows.
> ...


Ok I see, but being more detailed - aren´t we supposed to touch a lot of the dinamics? As the player have to decrease the speed of the bow (and even stop it for a tiny moment) for changing direction, shouldn´t we work in the same way maybe on two separetad channels as you mentioned??? Whille one has the decreased release the other has the normal attack and both with a litle of overlap of the midi notes???
I hope I´m not giving away any gold now :mrgreen: !!!


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## Hannes_F (Jun 24, 2010)

leogardini @ Thu Jun 24 said:


> Ok I see, but being more detailed - aren´t we supposed to touch a lot of the dinamics? As the player have to decrease the speed of the bow (and even stop it for a tiny moment) for changing direction, shouldn´t we work in the same way maybe on two separetad channels as you mentioned??? Whille one has the decreased release the other has the normal attack and both with a litle of overlap of the midi notes???
> I hope I´m not giving away any gold now :mrgreen: !!!



You are right ... but if we want to be that detailled then we must take into account that a good strings player often maintains the bow speed directly until the bow change comes even if the arm gets slower. This is actually the moment where the wrist and the fingers take over and still move the bow towards the old direction while the arm can even be on its way in the other direction. Hence the waving movement of the bow arm wrist.

The reason is that if you would lower the speed of the bow but keep the pressure then you would produce a big scratch.

The alternative is to lower the pressure - then you can lower the speed too without scratching too much - and that would indeed cause a dip in volume.

Now comes something funny: Before a bow change the speed of the bow is often even accellerated. This makes a difference in volume and tone. 

OK, originally I did not want to but I am giving away some gold now (really): If you watch a good strings section you will notice that _every note change is __*prepared *_... by changing the tone, the volume or both. If you close your eyes you will always know when the change comes. This has nothing to do with "realistic" or something, it is just musical. Since it technically is something that comes before the new note begins ... there is no automatic solution to it, and also legato samples don't do it by themselves. A real strings section always does it.

As I said this is nothing that is built in into libraries. You have to do it yourself with mixing. There are a few composers here that have that down with string libraries, and one can hear immediately hear of course who understands it and who doesn't. One name is (guess what) Thomas J. Bergersen, one more name is David William Hearn.


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## RiffWraith (Jun 24, 2010)

Thonex @ Thu Jun 24 said:


> RiffWraith @ Tue Jun 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Did you just call my string players liars?? :lol: >8o ~o)



:shock: OMG - no! :shock: I would never do that!!! :lol:  

Maybe we are talking about 2 different things - I dunno, I am so very lost at this point! :lol:


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## Leandro Gardini (Jun 25, 2010)

Hannes_F @ Thu Jun 24 said:


> leogardini @ Thu Jun 24 said:
> 
> 
> > Ok I see, but being more detailed - aren´t we supposed to touch a lot of the dinamics? As the player have to decrease the speed of the bow (and even stop it for a tiny moment) for changing direction, shouldn´t we work in the same way maybe on two separetad channels as you mentioned??? Whille one has the decreased release the other has the normal attack and both with a litle of overlap of the midi notes???
> ...


Hannes, thanks a lot for this. This is very interesting and it´s something I was looking for because I´m really trying to get deep in strings techniques!!!
I guess what I have to do is to pay close attention to the bow changes but I suppose it´s easyer to understand it looking at a solo strings than a section, right???
Regarding Thomas, I suppose you realised his knowledge when you heard his demo for Hollywood Strings because the old QLSO strings are litle sensitive to tiny changes in dinamics!!!
Some weeks ago I found these very good videos of violin lessons in youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBXFdJ3rJFc
This guy explain every articulation in a very detailed manner!!!


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## Leandro Gardini (Jun 26, 2010)

Maybe what I´m going to say is a discussion that is more suitable to be posted on LASS forum but things are already running here and Andrew is watching it!!!
The LASS rebowing feature sounds nice. It would be great if we had this feature on different notes, so that we could simulate the change of strings, change of bowing and detaches in their proper manner!!!
The way I see most composers are using the legato of sample libraries are not realistic. We´ve been suffering for a long time for not having realistic legatos besides what Vienna offered us, but now most of the libraries have this and composers are overusing it all the time. What about implementing it on LASS Andrew???


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## Thonex (Jun 26, 2010)

leogardini @ Sat Jun 26 said:


> Maybe what I´m going to say is a discussion that is more suitable to be posted on LASS forum but things are already running here and Andrew is watching it!!!
> The LASS rebowing feature sounds nice. It would be great if we had this feature on different notes, so that we could simulate the change of strings, change of bowing and detaches in their proper manner!!!
> The way I see most composers are using the legato of sample libraries are not realistic. We´ve been suffering for a long time for not having realistic legatos besides what Vienna offered us, but now most of the libraries have this and composers are overusing it all the time. What about implementing it on LASS Andrew???



I'll have to experiment with this. How would you propose LASS would differentiate between a non legato "new" note and a non-legato re-bow... playing wise?

Cheers,

Andrew K


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## Leandro Gardini (Jun 27, 2010)

Well, as far as I could understand from your comment a rebow is up and down bow on the same note. It will depends on the specific writing of any phrase!!!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 27, 2010)

> With samples you only care about the sound, not how it's created.
> 
> RiffWraith wrote:
> 
> Well, depends on who you are. Maybe you do nto care - which is absolutely fine - but I do care, and I would imagine that at least a few others might as well.


 
RiffWraith, is it just in writing or are you perhaps a little bit argumentative?

Do you really not understand my point? Because I'm not saying that I don't care about subtle details as you're implying.


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