# What do you think about the key "G"?



## germancomponist (Jun 19, 2013)

Is this the right key to write a more happy melody, or should I better do it in *A*? I mean, hm, *F* could also be interesting for a happy melody?

Also: Do you know a happy melody, written in "minor"? Maybe Gm?


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## Inductance (Jun 19, 2013)

Hm, is it really true that certain keys sound different in that respect? Would A sound different than C, or D? I mean, if they're all major keys, then all the half-steps and whole-steps are the same, so shouldn't they sound the same (except for pitch, of course)? 

I guess this is one of the things I still don't get. For example, I hear that Dm is the "sad" key. But I've heard sad tunes in other minor keys, too. 

I suppose that songs in certain keys, once orchestrated, show off some of the more somber timbres in the instruments. That I can understand. 

Sorry for rambling, Gunther! I don't mean to derail your thread. I'll stick around and maybe I'll learn something...


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## dgburns (Jun 19, 2013)

germancomponist @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> Is this the right key to write a more happy melody, or should I better do it in *A*? I mean, hm, *F* could also be interesting for a happy melody?
> 
> Also: Do you know a happy melody, written in "minor"? Maybe Gm?



what about "Amm" as in A major_minor :mrgreen:


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## germancomponist (Jun 19, 2013)

Inductance @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> Hm, is it really true that certain keys sound different in that respect? Would A sound different than C, or D? I mean, if they're all major keys, then all the half-steps and whole-steps are the same, so shouldn't they sound the same (except for pitch, of course)?
> 
> I guess this is one of the things I still don't get. For example, I hear that Dm is the "sad" key. But I've heard sad tunes in other minor keys, too.
> 
> ...



You aren't rambling, Rigoberto. I think this theme is / can be very interesting... .


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## TGV (Jun 20, 2013)

Of course there are happy tunes in D or E or Bb, and probably in all other keys. But a specific song on a specific instrument might sound better in one key than another, possibly because of the range of the tune. Perhaps playing in E makes a guitar player happier, and therefore his tunes more cheerful, who knows.

I wouldn't know a happy tune in minor from the top of my head, but there are "unhappy" tunes in major (Bach's Air on a G string being a famous example). A lot of pop music is written in minor, but what's happy to one might be unhappy to someone else.


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## Jdiggity1 (Jun 20, 2013)

Judging from my Zimmer playlist, Dm is the 'epic' key.


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## Ganvai (Jun 20, 2013)

Jdiggity1 @ 20th June 2013 said:


> Judging from my Zimmer playlist, Dm is the 'epic' key.



+1

But Am is really epic too, especially when playing bagpipes


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## Jdiggity1 (Jun 20, 2013)

Ah yes you are right! As proved by Angels and Demons, Inception, Samurai, POTC...


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## Ganvai (Jun 20, 2013)

What's POTC???


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## R.Cato (Jun 20, 2013)

Ganvai @ Thu Jun 20 said:


> What's POTC???



Pirates of the Carribean?? "Fluch der Karibik"


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## Jdiggity1 (Jun 20, 2013)

Ganvai @ Thu 20 Jun said:


> What's POTC???



Yes sorry I meant Pirates. Specifically, the track "Parlay"


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## lumcas (Jun 20, 2013)

...depends heavily on the tuning and interval relations, but I'd say E - G sharp third is often considered the sharpest thus happiest.... But a big +1 on the instrument dependency.


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## Ganvai (Jun 20, 2013)

Ah, thank you guys. Sometimes POTC slips my mind... :D


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## TGV (Jun 20, 2013)

Here Günther, some examples from one of your fellow citizens: http://gegenform.de/publikation/beispiele.html

Also, this sounds happy-ish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1uCUtIwU9U


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## Jdiggity1 (Jun 20, 2013)

Here is a piece I did in G. (mostly G Lydian).
It is written for kids, so it is supposed to have a happy tone overall, with moments of 'gloomyness' and curiosity.
https://soundcloud.com/jaydenlawrencemu ... troduction


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## KEnK (Jun 20, 2013)

Being a jazz musician I play the same pieces in various keys all the time.
(mostly for singers)

Imo- Keys do not have independent character.
Of course, various instruments will have their "favored" keys.
But that's different than looking at a melody or key center in it's abstract form.

I've encountered the idea of keys having independent character.
It's always puzzled me.
I think it's mostly a 19th century concept.

Kind of a "Music of the Spheres" thing.

k


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## Greg (Jun 21, 2013)

I think id rather be in G#m thats what i think about G


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## YuHirà (Jun 21, 2013)

> I've encountered the idea of keys having independent character.
> It's always puzzled me.
> I think it's mostly a 19th century concept.



IMHO, I don't think it's just a concept: some musicians hear these differences clearly (I do), others don't. 

I conducted a few experiences to know whether it depends of the context (instrument, musical discourse, etc...) or not... But it didn't change anything: for me, Dm, Cm or G#m sound really different. 

I don't know why exactly. As there is a difference between octaves (different colors, low interval limits, etc...), there is maybe a difference between keys too.


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## germancomponist (Jun 21, 2013)

YuHirà @ Fri Jun 21 said:


> I don't know why exactly. As there is a difference between octaves (different colors, low interval limits, etc...), there is maybe a difference between keys too.



Yes, there is a different.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 21, 2013)

100% there's a difference between keys. Absolutely. Even with synths, but especially with acoustic instruments.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 21, 2013)

And I don't have perfect pitch, by the way.


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## KEnK (Jun 21, 2013)

So if I play a standard in 3 different keys w/ the same players,
your saying the "tune" is somehow different?
The empirical mathematical relationships between notes have changed?
A minor 3rd in one key is somehow different than in another?

I think you're focusing on the sonorities of individual instruments, (piano for instance)
not a "key" in it's abstract sense.

example-
The interval of a major 3rd starting on middle c will be exactly the same
regardless of what key surrounds it.

How can this exact interval be different in F, C, G, Aminor or even Ab?
I'm not talking about it's harmonic relationship w/ various roots,
I'm talking about it's inherent identifiable quality.

If this is not different, what else can be?

k


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## germancomponist (Jun 21, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Jun 21 said:


> 100% there's a difference between keys. Absolutely. Even with synths, but especially with acoustic instruments.



+1

I did many experiments in the last years.... .


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## germancomponist (Jun 21, 2013)

KEnK @ Fri Jun 21 said:


> So if I play a standard in 3 different keys w/ the same players,
> your saying the "tune" is somehow different?
> The empirical mathematical relationships between notes have changed?
> A minor 3rd in one key is somehow different than in another?
> ...



I'm talking about feelings and inner perceptions, as a certain key is perceived in our brain.


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## rJames (Jun 21, 2013)

Don't you think it is a bit rude to ask outright how we feel about the key of "G".

You know perfectly well that the key of "G" is used by many of us on this forum. I like the key of "G" as much as any other key.

Ron


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## KEnK (Jun 21, 2013)

rJames @ Fri Jun 21 said:


> Don't you think it is a bit rude to ask outright how we feel about the key of "G".


Is it Politically Incorrect to like one key more than another?


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## germancomponist (Jun 21, 2013)

rJames @ Fri Jun 21 said:


> Don't you think it is a bit rude to ask outright how we feel about the key of "G".
> 
> You know perfectly well that the key of "G" is used by many of us on this forum. I like the key of "G" as much as any other key.
> 
> Ron



What is rude in the question? I'm afraid you have not understood the meaning of this question. ... .

My suggestion to you: Experiment! Write a short theme and transpose it from G to F, step by step.... . I am sure you quickly find out that there is something going on...!


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## JonFairhurst (Jun 21, 2013)

There's definitely a difference between keys. Don't believe me? Try singing Somewhere Over the Rainbow in C and then in F#.

Even without perfect pitch, a good guitarist can hear an open E, C, D, A, or G chord a mile away on a clear acoustic guitar. Add a capo at the third fret like Ian Anderson and you can still hear the chord fingerings. You can also hear that the guitar has a higher pitch than normal. It's all subtle but is essential to the "Tull" sound.

BTW, South Park uses the same minor-3rd pitch shift on voices as Ian Anderson uses on acoustic guitar. Yes, it makes a difference!

By the same token, metal bands don't play in drop D and drop C by random chance.

Maybe we have stronger perfect pitch skills than we realize.


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## rJames (Jun 21, 2013)

Hmmm, how far should I take this?

But seriously folks, what Jon is talking about is how particular instruments play a particular melody/harmony where open strings or tessitura? (is that the right term) affect the sound.

And I assume on "over the rainbow," it is about key and stretching your range... vocal tessitura.

Sorry, I didn't take the thread seriously. and don't have a good supply of smiley faces...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 21, 2013)

kEnk, there's absolutely zero question that different keys feel different from one another. I don't know if it's just the timbre of the instruments or whether there are other factors - probably both - but there's absolutely no question that I and many other people hear it instantly. It's not subtle.


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## KEnK (Jun 21, 2013)

Try as I might,
I can't get my 3rd at middle c to sound different no matter what key I play it in.
If someone can please tell me how to make it different I'll try it,
but so far that magic eludes me.

I just look at sonority and tonality as 2 different things.
Metal dudes tuning down is about sonority, not tonality.
And what key is easier to play a given instrument in is irrelevant.

Seems to be the arguments are about "belief".
No one is using facts to support their claims.
"Music of the Spheres" 
~o) 

k


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## Rctec (Jun 21, 2013)

D minor. Saddest of all keys. Spinal Tap. Plus, I like it. .

Seriously (but simplified), each instrument is a fixed resonating structue with formants. Therefore the harmonics generated by one note on a string ocssilating will interact differently with the frequency spectrum created by the fixed body of a cello, for instance. Listen to the twelve cellists from the Berlin Phil playing "Fratres". You can tell that some notes are more vibrant than others...and I think Arvo Paert was very aware of that.

That's my theory, and it's probably crap...but it was interesting to reall study Ann-Marie Callhoun's redicolous Stradivarius and see that even half a step down it wasn't a pleasant instrument any more.

Figue out the 'Hot" frequencies you're writing for...


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## Mike Greene (Jun 21, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Jun 21 said:


> kEnk, there's absolutely zero question that different keys feel different from one another.


Well . . . I have some question about it, so . . . 

If we're talking about guitar voicings, then yes, of course different keys will have different sounds. Lots of open strings (especially that high E string,) for instance, will generally sound "happier." But drop D tunings aren't used because there's something magic about the key of D with heavy metal. It's because it's lower and hence, beefier. Not to mention making the easiest bar chord possible on the low three strings.

With acoustic instruments, there's also the factor of where the harmonic structure hits that particular instrument. I'd have to look at the harmonic series again, but I think a trumpet, for instance, will play C with in tune, an E with a tendency to be a bit a bit flat, and a G with a tendency to be a bit sharp. So the key of C major will likely sound a little darker (since the 3rd tends slightly flat, closer to minor) than some key where the third has a tendency to be a little sharp.

Obviously players compensate for these tuning issues, but I imagine the tendencies still color the sound differently for different keys. And maybe the body of a violin favors certain frequencies, so even though the player has his fret finger in the right place, the violin still "wants" the sound to be sharper or flatter. So on an instrument by instrument basis, I can see certain keys have brighter or darker sounds, depending on particular notes.

But I don't think it has anything to do with the keys themselves. It would be more a factor of the physical quirks of various instruments tending to have their thirds tend sharp or flat, depending on the key. Since strings are all tuned pretty much the same, yeah, I'll buy that an orchestra has certain keys that are happier. Although if you add brass and winds, I'll bet it becomes more of a wash, since their sweet spot keys will be all different and cancel each other out.

But synths? Color me very, very skeptical.

<EDIT - Curse you, Zimmer, for posting slightly before me!>


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## NYC Composer (Jun 21, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Jun 21 said:


> And I don't have perfect pitch, by the way.



I do. Nyah nyah.

I can't sing as well as I can hear, though, which is strange.

Speaking of singing, I find G felicitous for my reedy baritone. Many of the vocal songs I write end up in G or its cousin, E minor.


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## rgames (Jun 21, 2013)

The notion that certain keys have certain characters goes back a long way. And it has to be bogus.

Here's why:

Pitch references have steadily risen over recorded musical history. Therefore, what is D to us today might have been C# some time ago, and possibly even C some time before that.

Therefore, you can't say the key of D has a certain feel because it wasn't the key of D some time ago. And it likely will be a different key of D some time from now.

Likewise, you can't say that certain frequencies have a certain feel because as pitches have shifted then we would have lost those feelings because the references don't shift in semitone intervals. In fact, all you have to do is look at the difference between current tuning standards to understand that there can't be a certain feel associated with a certain frequency (e.g. US vs. Europe). By the way, that's also how you disprove the notion of "perfect pitch" - perfect according to which standard? There's certainly propensity for pitch recognition, but the term "perfect" implies some type of universal standard which clearly doesn't exist.

Therefore, whether you claim that certain keys are linked to moods or certain frequencies are linked to moods, you must be wrong. Perhaps that assertion could be correct for some limited period of time given some standard frequency reference in some portion of the musical world but as a generalization across all of musical history it must be wrong.

QED. 

rgames


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## NYC Composer (Jun 21, 2013)

rgames @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> The notion that certain keys have certain characters goes back a long way. And it has to be bogus.
> 
> Here's why:
> 
> ...



(laughing!!)

Ok RG, I have perfect standardized presently agreed upon Western 12 tone pitch recognition,. I turn my back, you give me no pitch reference, you play any note on a piano tuned to a standard of A 440, I tell you what note you played every time without fail. Call it whatever you like-it's just a parlor trick I was born with, how's that.


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## rgames (Jun 22, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> (laughing!!)
> 
> Ok RG, I have perfect standardized presently agreed upon Western 12 tone pitch recognition,. I turn my back, you give me no pitch reference, you play any note on a piano tuned to a standard of A 440, I tell you what note you played every time without fail. Call it whatever you like-it's just a parlor trick I was born with, how's that.


It's heightened sensitivity to pitches but there is no universal standard. You developed a sensitivity to the standard within which you developed. There certainly are people who have that capability.

However, the term "perfect" implies that there is some universal standard when clearly one does not exist. If you had developed your pitch sensitivity in another standard then you would have adopted that one. It still would have been much better than average, it's just not a universal standard.

Everyone has pitch sensitivity to some degree - anyone can distinguish between the range of notes that would be plated by a piccolo vs. those by a tuba. However, some folks have the ability to refine that distinction to a much more precise level. I bet your "perfect" pitch would break down if you were tested on your ability to distinguish quarter tones.

To drive the point home even further, is your perfect pitch equal or just temperament? 

rgames


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## NYC Composer (Jun 22, 2013)

rgames @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sat Jun 22 said:
> 
> 
> > (laughing!!)
> ...



I described it as a parlor trick, but one i was born with,rather than devloped- my piano teacher discovered it when i was 5. You may call it what you like, but can you do it?


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## germancomponist (Jun 22, 2013)

Rctec @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> That's my theory, and it's probably crap...but it was interesting to reall study Ann-Marie Callhoun's redicolous Stradivarius and see that even half a step down it wasn't a pleasant instrument any more.



This is interesting. Is this nearly that same effect what you get if you detune a violin-vi?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 22, 2013)

Mike G, have you never heard a piece you know played back at 44.1 instead of 48 or v.v. and known right away that it's wrong?

Also, do you have something like Serato Pitch'nTime or SoundToys Speed (a whole-mix pitch shifter)? Try transposing...well, anything by different amounts. You'll be kissing my ass all over the place and wondering how you could possibly question anything I say.

The main thing has to be what you and Mr. Rctec say: instruments are fixed resonating structures with formants. But I suspect it's more than that. One thought is that the resonances are not just in the instruments but in the environment in which we listen to them. And in our bodies, which may sound strange but is actually a lot less new age than it sounds.

rjames, the fact that orchestras tune a few cents higher than they did two centuries ago only proves that tastes change (and actually that we like a brighter sound, which is really a form of hyping). And that says that a lot of this is what we're used to, which is not in dispute. Actually, I'd turn your argument around and say that the fact that tastes change means there's something to change. Also, if you listen to, say, Beethoven played by an "authentic" orchestra (whatever they're called), it's a very different sound, and the pitch is a big part of that.

And one more: who among us hasn't set fire to some public building...sorry, I mean had the experience of hearing music and thinking that it wants to go up or down a key or two?


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## rJames (Jun 22, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> rjames, the fact that orchestras tune a few cents higher than they did two centuries ago only proves that tastes change (and actually that we like a brighter sound, which is really a form of hyping). And that says that a lot of this is what we're used to, which is not in dispute. Actually, I'd turn your argument around and say that the fact that tastes change means there's something to change. Also, if you listen to, say, Beethoven played by an "authentic" orchestra (whatever they're called), it's a very different sound, and the pitch is a big part of that.
> 
> And one more: who among us hasn't set fire to some public building...sorry, I mean had the experience of hearing music and thinking that it wants to go up or down a key or two?



rgames....rgames...rgames R G Ames is not the same as Ron James

Ron James is older, wiser... well at least older...

Ron


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 22, 2013)

And much wiser. My bad.


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## ghostnote (Jun 23, 2013)

germancomponist @ Wed Jun 19 said:


> Is this the right key to write a more happy melody, or should I better do it in *A*? I mean, hm, *F* could also be interesting for a happy melody?



it depends on the scene

F is for me: naivity, curiousness but also the feeling of security
A: very noble and kinda rural, overall very happy and optimistic, start of an adventure or the feeling of falling in love with someone
G: home, meditation, very festive and also very irish

just my subjective opinion


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## germancomponist (Jun 23, 2013)

My time is limited now, but later I will post some interesting examples. There is so much what keys tell!


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## Mike Greene (Jun 23, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> Mike G, have you never heard a piece you know played back at 44.1 instead of 48 or v.v. and known right away that it's wrong?
> 
> Also, do you have something like Serato Pitch'nTime or SoundToys Speed (a whole-mix pitch shifter)? Try transposing...well, anything by different amounts. You'll be kissing my ass all over the place and wondering how you could possibly question anything I say.
> 
> ...


Wrong playback speeds (44.1/48,) or even using something like Serato Pitch N Time are obvious because even if we don't have perfect pitch, we can still sense that the key is higher or lower *compared to* the original. The singer might sound more chipmunky or Darth Vaderish, for instance. Or the guitar might sound too dark or too bright.

It's not a mater of _"When it was in C, it sounded so happy, but now that it's pitched up to Db, it sounds so dark."_ In fact, the opposite would be the case. If you pitched it up electronically (or even speeding up tape,) it will sound happier/brighter, no matter which key it started or ended on. That's why KIIS FM used to (and possibly still does) always speed up their songs.

With that said, I do believe there is something to the fixed resonances of certain instruments, as well as where their harmonics compare to the associated notes in various keys. But with synths or vocals or anything like that, your ass will have to remain unkissed.


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## TGV (Jun 23, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> Also, if you listen to, say, Beethoven played by an "authentic" orchestra (whatever they're called), it's a very different sound, and the pitch is a big part of that.


I'd say the biggest part is the different instruments and section sizes. I always understood higher tuning as the first step in the loudness wars.


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## Tatu (Jun 23, 2013)

I tune in to G often, when I'm thinking of clouds.. o


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## NYC Composer (Jun 24, 2013)

Tatu @ Mon Jun 24 said:


> I tune in to G often, when I'm thinking of clouds.. o



I'e looked at clouds from both sides now.


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## Jdiggity1 (Jun 24, 2013)

Michael Chrostek @ Mon 24 Jun said:


> it depends on the scene
> 
> F is for me: naivity, curiousness but also the feeling of security
> A: very noble and kinda rural, overall very happy and optimistic, start of an adventure or the feeling of falling in love with someone
> ...



For a second i thought you were writing an acrostic poem... :wink: 

but seriously... i find that very interesting! I will keep those in mind...


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## yellowstudio (Jun 25, 2013)

Guys, it's all explained in great detail over here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_temperament
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_intonation
http://www.hermode.com/index_en.html
http://timberens.com/essays/tuning.htm

Thus, Gunther's original question begs some clarification: What tuning system are you referring to?

What Hans was referring to re: Ann-Marie Calhoun's Stradivarius has some bearing, but that particular resonance of individual instruments is a different class of phenomena, particularly as string instruments without frets are always subject to the players' own intonation. 

For us guitar/bass players, this has led to some strange-looking inventions such as fanned frets or guitars looking like they'd been fretted by a drunk person:

http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php

Funny experiment: just play a G Chord on piano, then an open G on a standard fretted guitar (tuned to match middle C on the piano), then play a D chord on piano and open D on guitar. If you don't cringe, get an appointment with your ENT 

so long
Andreas


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 25, 2013)

> your ass will have to remain unkissed



Chiropractor! Ouch!

I just hurt my back kissing it myself.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 25, 2013)

> It's not a mater of "When it was in C, it sounded so happy, but now that it's pitched up to Db, it sounds so dark." In fact, the opposite would be the case. If you pitched it up electronically (or even speeding up tape,) it will sound happier/brighter, no matter which key it started or ended on. That's why KIIS FM used to (and possibly still does) always speed up their songs.



That's interesting - I didn't know about KIIS.

But the reason I mentioned Serato and Sound Toys' processors is that they do formant-corrected pitch correction on entire mixes. It's not just speeding up tape or changing the playback sample rate - which I agree is not the right example.

Okay, I'll generate an example with synths when I get a chance. I still say there is such a thing as absolute pitch.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 25, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Jun 25 said:


> > It's not a mater of "When it was in C, it sounded so happy, but now that it's pitched up to Db, it sounds so dark." In fact, the opposite would be the case. If you pitched it up electronically (or even speeding up tape,) it will sound happier/brighter, no matter which key it started or ended on. That's why KIIS FM used to (and possibly still does) always speed up their songs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Doesn't the full version of Melodyne do the same?


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