# Mac Pro or iMac Pro?



## yellow_lupine (May 26, 2020)

Hello everyone,

I am planning on buying a Mac workstation for music production, which will be located into a small studio of about 3 x 5 meters.
I am torn undecided between a 16-core 2019 Mac Pro and an 18-core iMac Pro.
The software I will mainly use is Cubase with VSL Ensemble Pro and a lot of virtual instruments.

I am a little worried about the heat that will emanate from the machine. I have read the Apple specifications (https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201796 and https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208378) and it seems the iMac Pro produces slightly less heat, but always on paper.
I won't keep it running for more than 8 hours.

Does anybody have any experience with these machine and can give me any suggestions?
Thanks in advance


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 26, 2020)

I don't know which machine is better, but I wouldn't worry about the heat.

My "machine room" is the garage next to my office. It gets hot in there during the summer, and I've had my computers in there for 25 years without any issues.


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## Symfoniq (May 26, 2020)

Right now, my 16-core Mac Pro 7,1 sits on a desk in a bedroom of comparable size to your studio. I've not noticed it heating up the room, though I do have central air conditioning.


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## gst98 (May 26, 2020)

The iMac has always been know as a quiet and cool machine. The Mac pro took it to another level and is pretty much silent, and I haven't heard people saying it gets hot. One of the deisgn points of the new Mac Pro is they wanted people to be able to record with mics with the computer in the same room.

My limited experince with PCs was that anything powerful has always been very hot and the fans noisy. 

My advice would be 100% mac Pro. The iMac Pro was released to tide over professionals while they were making the new Mac Pro. So with the new range of iMacs coming out shortly, this iMac is at its end of life where as the Mac Pro has just begun its. The Mac Pro will alwasy run at a lower temp (at the chip) because it has enormous fans compared to the iMac.


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## Wunderhorn (May 26, 2020)

If you can afford it, go Mac Pro!
It gives a lot (a LOT) more freedom to expand and to service the machine. Therefore it will live a lot longer too. And you are not forced to be stuck with the little iMac screen.
The only downside currently is that on the Mac Pro you are forced to use MacOS Vista.. erm... Catalina which is still full of bugs as well as deliberately designed nuisances.


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## gsilbers (May 26, 2020)

yellow_lupine said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I am planning on buying a Mac workstation for music production, which will be located into a small studio of about 3 x 5 meters.
> I am torn undecided between a 16-core 2019 Mac Pro and an 18-core iMac Pro.
> ...




i think the expansion and screen size might be more important. you are stuck w the imac. 
with the mac pro you might not need the expansion. 

my personal feeling would be to wait for a newer version of the mac pro. second generation might be the bomb. like past mac pro.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 26, 2020)

Oh, the concern is whether it's going to heat up the room?

Nah, I wouldn't worry about that at all.



gsilbers said:


> my personal feeling would be to wait for a newer version of the mac pro



yellow_lupine is talking about the black 2013 Mac Pro, not the new one.

In any case, historically it always made sense to wait for the next model. But the current Mac Pro isn't intended for people to buy, it's there to establish Apple's high end.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 26, 2020)

Or am I wrong and it is the latest Mac Pro we're talking about?

Whatever. I haven't compared the machines anyway.


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## Wunderhorn (May 26, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Oh, the concern is whether it's going to heat up the room?
> 
> Nah, I wouldn't worry about that at all.
> 
> ...



By mentioning 16 cores yellow_lupine is definitely talking about the current Mac Pro. The 2013 did not come with 16 cores.

As an Apple user since 1994 and having used so many of their machines the only Apple machine I can recommend as a workstation is the new Mac Pro (Laptops are another conversation). If it is not that I would recommend going the PC route. Everything else (iMacs, Minis...) IMHO is money thrown out the window.

BTW. Yes, the new Mac Pro does produce quite some heat, but not any heat that endangers internal components as the heat is moved outside the case pretty effectively. Of course I would have wished they would have gone for a fan-less design like some PC workstations which would have had the advantage of not collecting dust as well aside from being truly silent and thus slowing down corrosion. With the new Mac Pro you have to get the dust out of the machine on a regular basis.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 26, 2020)

Wunderhorn said:


> As an Apple user since 1994 and having used so many of their machines the only Apple machine I can recommend as a workstation is the new Mac Pro (Laptops are another conversation). If it is not that I would recommend going the PC route. Everything else (iMacs, Minis...) IMHO is money thrown out the window.



See, I think the new Mac Pro is the one where you're throwing money out the window. If you have so much money that you don't care, sure, but $15,000 for a computer is a joke.

As I said, that machine isn't intended to sell, it's intended to establish Apple as high-end.

And I have you beat - I've been working on Macs all day long since 1985.


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## gst98 (May 26, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> See, I think the new Mac Pro is the one where you're throwing money out the window. If you have so much money that you don't care, sure, but $15,000 for a computer is a joke.
> 
> As I said, that machine isn't intended to sell, it's intended to establish Apple as high-end.
> 
> And I have you beat - I've been working on Macs all day long since 1985.




Yes but people never pay attention to the fact the the pro line often lose the least amount of money. 

So 15 grand is irrelevent for the vast majority of people considering spending that large an amount on a computer. It's more important about how much it loses, and the iMac pros held onto their vlaue amazingly well. 

Also most people buying the mac pro have other considerations such as writing it off and a whole world of accounts and depreciation.

and spending 15 grand on a computer is a joke? that seems like you're implying anyone who's bought one is a poser thats just flexing? I think people who have bought them will know exactly what they're doing and have thought hard about whether it was economical to buy one.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 26, 2020)

I'm not insulting anyone who bought one, I'm saying they wasted a lot of money. If they can afford it and don't care, great. People spend too much on all kinds of things. I mean, I saw $180 t-shirts in Bloomingdale's last time I was there.

But yes: $15K for a computer you're using in a music/audio studio is completely ludicrous, let alone $50K for the deluxe version (without the wheels).

And while Macs do hold their value very well, I don't think a lot of people regard computers as that kind of investment. We buy them to use.


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## Wunderhorn (May 26, 2020)

The Mac Pro is the only Mac in which you can stick a PCI card (inside). Trying to run fast SSDs (NVMe) from an external enclosure at full speed is a challenge (OWC Thunderblade maybe?) - but how cumbersome is that... and... what if you would like to upgrade your RAM? Maybe the higher tier iMac Pro allows you to go beyond 128GB but then you aren't far away from the Mac Pro price range.

And also @Nick Batzdorf, you are making assumptions that everybody here uses their computer for music exclusively. This may not be the case. In my case it is also design works, illustration and 3D. I do that for a living. Paying above $10.000 for a computer is a well worth investment. I need to work efficiently. I can not be bothered with too little RAM, not enough plugs, storage etc. I am sitting at this machine every day. It's gotta be good if not the best as I believe that even the greatest workstations out there are still tragically under-powered. An iMac would be money thrown out the window, a Mac Pro would not. The only alternative is a PC and I thought about it. Still didn't want to leave MacOS yet, despite the gruesome Mac OS Vista (Catalina). Not quite yet. And musically? I just don't want to be shut down by hitting the CPU ceiling when dealing with large orchestral mockups. I want enough overhead to work fluently. After 30 years in the industry I am not cutting corners on the tools that I use daily. That, I learned, it is just not economical. However, I do understand that everyone might be in a uniquely different position and based on that, making decisions what is best for them. That's diversity. You - and I - can only make suggestions based on our individual experience. And I stated mine.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 26, 2020)

I have PCI cards inside my upgraded 2009 Mac Pro, although years ago I stopped buying expensive ones. (While Digidesign was out of stock, I grew cold feet after giving them my credit card for the latest Pro Tools upgrade. One of my better decisions.)

The last time I shut down my CPU dealing with large orchestral mockups was never. If that's an issue, you're much better off with a slave computer and VE Pro.

SSDs at full speed, who cares. I run sample libraries off them, not benchmark software.

But if you don't like things outside the case, I understand. An iMac wouldn't be ideal for me either, because I want my machines on the other side of a wall.

Using your computer for 3D, that's different. This thread is about whether an iMac Pro or Mac Pro is better suited to use in a music studio. But there's also a difference between "above $10,000" and $15,000 before wheels - although you don't need to spend $10K for a professional music setup either.


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## emilio_n (May 26, 2020)

iMac Pro is not an option now. Is 3 years old model. I think is a waste of money when is possible that they present a new model during the year. 
I am waiting for this and then decide if go to Mac Pro or iMac Pro path. I use the computer for other things (Photography and video) so I think 10.000$ is not a crazy thing if you will use daily during 5 or more years and is a key tool for your income.


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## Technostica (May 26, 2020)

gst98 said:


> The iMac has always been know as a quiet and cool machine. The Mac pro took it to another level and is pretty much silent, and I haven't heard people saying it gets hot.
> 
> My limited experince with PCs was that anything powerful has always been very hot and the fans noisy.


The actual heat being output by the components is what the OP is seemingly concerned about and that is going to be very similar for Apple or Windows PCs as the components are the same or very similar.
Noise levels and temperatures are separate issues.
Although sometimes people say heat when they mean something else.


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## Mishabou (May 26, 2020)

If you do this for a living, how much you invest on gear is irrelevant as long as your ROI makes sense.

I remember when i bought my Avid S6 a few years ago, all the naysayers said i was crazy to dish out $30K for a ''glorify'' mouse. After testing it for a week, i knew it would greatly enhance my workflow. The console help me complete my mixes faster and better, it was paid off in less than a year.

I don't think a $25K computer is a lot as long as it helps you accomplish your tasks quicker and better, which means more money in your pocket at the end of the day.

As for iMac vs Mac Pro. I'm testing an 18 cores iMac pro vs 16 and 28 cores Mac Pro. For me, definitely Mac Pro...quieter, lot of room for expansion, etc...still not sure between 16 vs 28 cores though.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 26, 2020)

Well, I'm saying the ROI doesn't make sense.

I think a $25K computer is a lot for something that *won't* help you accomplish your tasks better, it's unlikely to make them any quicker, and it's less money in your pocket. It would be one thing if there were no alternative, but that's not the case. An Avid S6 is a piece of audio gear. These are freaking computers.

Sorry to be irritable, but making a living using your computer has nothing to do with whether you're spending more money than necessary on something that won't make much difference.

If you want to and you have enough that it doesn't matter, fine. But that's different.

People have been making a living with realistically priced computers since the dawn of the digital revolution. I don't understand why they've gone up so much when everything else digital has gone way down.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 26, 2020)

And by the way I'm not a member of the "Apple is overpriced" chorus. They have a history of making great products, and I've been working on Macs all day long for almost 3-1/2 decades.

You expect to pay a premium over generic computers for a Mac, and I don't mind that. Nor do I mind paying for really good design.

But come on. When you can buy a generic machine for at most 25% of the price, someone is pulling your chain (or pushing whatever you have).

"But I added up the parts and they're more than 25% of the price, they're 26% not 25%!"

Okay, then add up the price of four normal computers that combined are way, way more powerful than this machine. Then consider that for the same money you can buy some really good mics and preamps, or instruments, or things that really are worth the money because they affect the sound.


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## gst98 (May 27, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Well, I'm saying the ROI doesn't make sense.
> 
> I think a $25K computer is a lot for something that *won't* help you accomplish your tasks better, it's unlikely to make them any quicker, and it's less money in your pocket. It would be one thing if there were no alternative, but that's not the case. An Avid S6 is a piece of audio gear. These are freaking computers.
> 
> ...




With respect, I think you don't understand what these computers are for and whos buying them. They absolutley do speed up your workflow if you are hitting the limit of what apple's normal computers can handle. ( and you require macOS)

and again your implication that people buy these with out them being necessary and so it just for bragging and personal indulgance is just wrong. 

That's fine if you don't get it and why people would spend this amount of money, but don't tell them they're wrong for doing so. Especailly as that wasn't the question he asked.


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## Mishabou (May 27, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Well, I'm saying the ROI doesn't make sense.
> 
> I think a $25K computer is a lot for something that *won't* help you accomplish your tasks better, it's unlikely to make them any quicker, and it's less money in your pocket. It would be one thing if there were no alternative, but that's not the case. An Avid S6 is a piece of audio gear. These are freaking computers.
> 
> ...



Well, we can argue till cows come home but we obviously have different needs.

I'm working on a project in Atmos for an art installation. This is not your typical Film/TV workflow. The client is present for most of the creative process and wants everything for yesterday...sounds familiar  Anyways, we write / record / mix as we go and must conform and rebalance audio data to match a changed picture cut on a regular basis, plus several alternate mixes for approval every single day.

The above workflow requires a system capable of playing back high track counts in immersive format, with tons of VI and able to record live musicians at low latency anytime during the creative process without bouncing. 

I collaborated on a similar project last year and the studio end up buying the "cheapest" computer they could find after exhausting and testing every set up combinations for a month with the help of some very clever folks at HP, Dell and AMD. It boils down to a multi computer set up vs one machine. Since the price was basically the same, they end up with an HP workstation, it cost them $45K. They used PT for the whole project after testing LPX, CB and Nuendo. The template has over 50K SFX and 18K VI patches from different vendors including lots of homemade Kontakt patches. By the end of the project, the timeline spans over 2 hrs, we used most of the allocated voices from PT, lots of VI, mixed in Atmos. Never had to bounce because of technical issues and during the creative process, i can record up to 24 inputs with 8 can mixes at 128 buffer max.

Nick, if you can find a cheaper alternative without compromising our workflow, i love to hear from you. PM me.


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## Symfoniq (May 27, 2020)

The Mac Pro's pricing is comparable to workstations from Dell and HP. I know because I've cross-shopped them.

If you don't need a workstation, that's fine. But the size of the workstation market proves that many people do need them, and are wiling to pay for them.

Moreover, mine will cost less than $2K/year over its viable lifespan. This is peanuts compared to the revenue it generates.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 27, 2020)

Only $50 down $50 a year for $50 years. 

My response is this.

Now, I'm *not* advocating a hackintosh or saying that the price of the components is the whole thing - as I wrote above. But let's say you get someone good like VisionDAW to build you a comparably priced Windows machine. It'll still be 25% of the price, while a reasonable premium over a generic machine would be what, maybe 20%?

This machine is designed to sell less expensive Macs.


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## DrMickGotSick (May 27, 2020)

The Mac Pro is built using professional grade components. You won't find an Intel Xeon CPU or ECC memory in a machine built by VisionDAW. You'd need to go to a server build for a like-for-like comparison, and I expect the prices in that case to be on a similar level.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 27, 2020)

DrMickGotSick said:


> You won't find an Intel Xeon CPU or ECC memory in a machine built by VisionDAW.



Give Mark Nagata a call and ask him whether that's true.


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## detritusdave (May 27, 2020)

In my experience, getting a pro-Audio built pc costs more or less the same as a Mac..... look at 3xs/Scan for example. I don't understand why it's so important for people to desperately try and instill how WRONG!!! people are for looking to buy a Mac.. so much identity projection rather than offering advice as to the OP's question....


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## DrMickGotSick (May 27, 2020)

Ok, so their top of the line PRO workstation listed on the website doesn't have those components but it looks like you can get a server class workstation custom built with them.

I would still expect a workstation with those components to be in the same price range as the Mac Pros.


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## ridgero (May 27, 2020)

Bought an iMac Pro base model for 3.000,- and upgraded it myself to a 10 Core and 128 GB RAM. I payed 750,- for RAM and CPU.

A total cost for around 3800,-

I love my iMac Pro

A 18 core 2191B Xeon costs around 1000,- on eBay


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## Nate Johnson (May 27, 2020)

ridgero said:


> Bought an iMac Pro base model for 3.000,- and upgraded it myself to a 10 Core and 128 GB RAM. I payed 750,- for RAM and CPU.
> 
> A total cost for around 3800,-
> 
> ...



Cool, I didn’t realize it was even possible to upgrade the Pro model.


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## MGdepp (May 27, 2020)

ridgero said:


> Bought an iMac Pro base model for 3.000,- and upgraded it myself to a 10 Core and 128 GB RAM. I payed 750,- for RAM and CPU.
> 
> A total cost for around 3800,-
> 
> ...


That sounds like one of the few “sane” options to get to a powerful modern Mac at the moment. You should not be shy of taking this beast apart, though, and better be careful, as there is risk of life-threatening electrical shock due to the unprotected power supply (yes, with the power cord unplugged!!!).

But as long as you are fine with dealing with this, now is the time to upgrade the base model iMac Pro and get a pretty powerful machine for much less than what Apple wants.

Personally, I would prefer the Mac Pro, as I don’t like iMacs. I want a computer separate from the monitor and stubbornly stick to that. Since the newest Mac Pro is far from being inside that range of buying the entry model cheaply and spec it up yourself (there is no decently priced entry model and the CPUs are still very expensive, even if you upgrade them yourself), I will happily stick with my hackintosh. It offers me the processor of the latest iMac in an expandable desktop format with PCIe and lots of internal storage (SSDs) for samples. All that for a very good price and just as stable as real Macs. I just updated to Catalina without any problem. This Hackintosh offers me exactly what I want and Apple fails at doing so!


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 27, 2020)

DrMickGotSick said:


> I would still expect a workstation with those components to be in the same price range as the Mac Pros.



If that's true then I'll be wrong.

Therefore it can't be true.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 27, 2020)

MGdepp said:


> I want a computer separate from the monitor and stubbornly stick to that



Me too, and not only because I'm stubborn.

The main reason is noise. I had a trapdoor built into my wall (to create a machine room in the garage on the other side) when just one spinning drive was literally giving me a headache.

SSDs help, but I still have some spinning drives going, plus fans.

Also, I still really like the monitor I've been using for 14 years now (Apple 30" Cinema).


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## Symfoniq (May 27, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Only $50 down $50 a year for $50 years.
> 
> My response is this.
> 
> ...



If that option works for you, I'm glad. Truly.

But I'll never waste my time again fooling around with a Hackintosh. It's not worth the hassle for me.

And yes, for any large business purchase, I think in terms of return on investment. Five years from now, I expect my Mac Pro to have cost about 1% of the revenue it will generate. My friends who work in the skilled trades can only dream and wish their equipment and tooling costs were so low.


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## MGdepp (May 27, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The main reason is noise. I had a trapdoor built into my wall (to create a machine room in the garage on the other side) when just one spinning drive was literally giving me a headache.


Exactly the reason why I want it separate, too. Actually, the iMac Pro is pretty quiet and I guess I could bare that noise level close to my face. But I already set up the infrastructure (iso-box, cabling and vesa mounted screens) perfectly in my studio and hate to be bothered with having to rearrange it!

Otherwise, it is also an enviromental consideration: as soon as your iMac is to slow, you will probably get rid of all of it. My Hackintosh will be a descent slave, as soon as I would buy a Mac or build another Hackintosh and the screen can be used or put to use on my office machine. Everything is just way more flexible with separate components.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 27, 2020)

> If that option works for you, I'm glad. Truly.
> 
> But I'll never waste my time again fooling around with a Hackintosh. It's not worth the hassle for me.



You (Symfoniq) didn't read my post.

I mean, I don't blame you - I am pretty boring - but I can't really make my point more clearly.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 27, 2020)

MGdepp said:


> Actually, the iMac Pro is pretty quiet



I still have other, older machines in there as well.

A while ago - I think it was Synthetic - wrote that an iMac Pro in a box would be a great computer. It would.


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## gsilbers (May 27, 2020)

DrMickGotSick said:


> The Mac Pro is built using professional grade components. You won't find an Intel Xeon CPU or ECC memory in a machine built by VisionDAW. You'd need to go to a server build for a like-for-like comparison, and I expect the prices in that case to be on a similar level.




ah.. the power of markeing and branding

Dell and HP offer similar xeon workstation at similar or higher price than the mac pro








Precision 7920 Workstation Desktop Tower with Xeon Processor | Dell USA


The Precision 7920 Tower workstation provides ultimate performance and scalability to grow alongside your vision.



www.dell.com




this one i did is $128,672.15 for one computer!


some videos in YT have guys spec ing out a dell and hp to the mac pro maxed ouot and it was about the same.


i think the disccusion might be more towards if Xeons is needed for music production work rather than what you can find in visiondaw i9 etc.


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## Lilainjil (May 27, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I still have other, older machines in there as well.
> 
> A while ago - I think it was Synthetic - wrote that an iMac Pro in a box would be a great computer. It would.


Indeed. They could call it the Mac. Mac and Mac Pro. It’s like there’s a gap in the product line presently.


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## Headlands (May 27, 2020)

Current Xeons (the ones in Mac Pros) are, from what I understand, not an improvement for audio over i9's. So Mac Pros are crazy expensive vs. what they would be if they had i9 processors. They would still be overpriced (everything Apple always is and always has been -- it's just if you're willing to pay that tax). Graphics and video guys might benefit from Xeons? That I don't know.

I would be highly interested in a Mac Pro if it were equipped with i9 instead of Xeon. Xeon inflates the price from standard-Apple-level to high-comedy-Apple-level, with no real benefit for music guys.

Apple would sell a LOT more Mac Pros if they went with i9's as an option. It would likely stop plenty of people from going the Hackintosh or Windows route (including me) if those users wanted to spend a bit more money for piece of mind, as opposed to the truly absurd amount of extra money currently. $7k for a Mac Pro that's as fast as my current $3450 Windows setup (and mine has _far_ more memory and a bigger system drive compared to the base $7k Mac with similar processor speed/cores, plus far more USB and SSD ports -- come on Apple, really??), and for me is simply not worth it for the Apple tax. When I needed to retire my Trash Can Mac Pro (Xeon) a few months ago for a much faster computer, it was Windows (or Hackintosh) all the way for the reasons I just mentioned. Dependability/stability is exactly the same between the two...I just miss Mac OS, even though the power of this computer is in another league entirely from the former.

No _wonder_ there's such a huge Hackintosh community!


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## colony nofi (May 27, 2020)

Mishabou said:


> Well, we can argue till cows come home but we obviously have different needs.
> 
> I'm working on a project in Atmos for an art installation. This is not your typical Film/TV workflow. The client is present for most of the creative process and wants everything for yesterday...sounds familiar  Anyways, we write / record / mix as we go and must conform and rebalance audio data to match a changed picture cut on a regular basis, plus several alternate mixes for approval every single day.
> 
> ...


Hey Mate,
I understand your workflow completely. Indeed, in the not too distant past, it wasn't unusual for a project to drop $50k JUST on the immersive audio "panning" machine (anyone else use the Barco (YAMAHA!) Immersive System?! Oh - and the $50k is the base model.)

The mac pro is 100% the way to go if you are going OSX. AMD 3970X for PC is a cheaper route initially, but you'll need to spend $5k on a tech setting it all up AND worry about a bunch of other issues that have not yet potentially been solved (but will... Indeed, for immersive jobs from next year, the next gen thread-rippers will most likely be everywhere going by conversations with other industry techs. Especially if you're starting to work on virtual environment WIPS done in gaming engines which some of the museums are leaning towards - and limited overseas travel with covid etc. Actually, since you are in cubase, its worth looking at nuendo for their game connect possibilities. Being able to mock up virtual acoustic environments in gaming engines and get people to preview them using ambisonic/binaural mixes inside a gaming engine simulating the visual environement is something else. Still costs tonnes at the moment, but the barriers to entry are dropping very quickly!

Its worth noting as well that some of the new pathways are not 100% mac at the moment. However, given you have a set workflow that is mac orientated and projects in place, I can't recommend anything other than the mac pro.

They can be beasts. And worth every single penny.


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