# Dilemma...



## 3DC (Apr 11, 2021)

Help me understand which route wold be best for total newbie like me.

I have FL Studio All Plugins Edition DAW which comes with several cool synths and tons of sounds. These are excellent for EDM music production but very basic for professional film scoring. I was really looking for single "All in One" library solution for this problem. Something like BBC SO but it seems to me by forum comments and my BBC SO Discovery edition testing that the whole library is not very suited for film scoring.

So my dilemma is this:

Go for Native Instruments Komplete 13 Ultimate Collectors Edition. This would fill up my PC with tons of high quality instruments and sounds including several for cinematic use. The problem is I don't know how usable they are for film scoring. 

Another option is to "cherry pick" my libraries from different library publishers but the problem is I have very limited budget and I don't see any sales up until the end of year. On top of that I would not know what to pick.

Final option is to go with East West Composer Cloud Subscription but with more then TB of data I would have to buy separate SSD disk for smooth work. 

Any suggestions or recommendations?


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## mybadmemory (Apr 11, 2021)

What made you think BBCSO is not suitable for film scoring? That the sound is more classical than cinematic/epic/hybrid? Or that the workflow is not Ensambles based and therefore more time consuming?

BBCSO is currently an incredible deal in terms of getting a very complete full orchestra for a quite low price considering what you get. If the sound or workflow is not what you’re after, that’s another thing of course. But I can’t see why it wouldn’t be suitable for scoring generally.


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## mybadmemory (Apr 11, 2021)

What kind of sound are you after? Classical? Hollywood? Old school epic? Modern hybrid?

And do you want an Ensambles or a sections based workflow?


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## mybadmemory (Apr 11, 2021)

3DC said:


> I am after HERO LEVEL™ library.....but with waaaay more affordable price and preferably all in one solution.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That video says more about level of arrangement and orchestration rather than sound or workflow though.  So I’ll repeat my last question:

Which sound are you after, and what workflow do you want? Classical, Hollywood, Old school epic, or Modern hybrid? Ensambles or sections based?


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## Consona (Apr 11, 2021)

Yea, tell us what specifically you want to do so we can put some low budget bundles together for you. What's your budget btw?


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## Consona (Apr 11, 2021)

3DC said:


> I guess Hollywood + Epic


You want to compose like John Williams or sound like modern trailers? The second option will cost you way less money and way less time to be able to do it.


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## easyrider (Apr 11, 2021)

3DC said:


> I guess Hollywood + Epic + All In One ( like BBC SO PRO with solo options ).
> Now that I think I am guessing Abbey Road One with Sparkling Woodwinds and Legendary Low Strings would be a very close fit. But there are no solo option as far as I know.
> 
> My budget is 1000 EUR for really good deal ( on sale ). Could stretch another 500 but rather not if not necessary.
> ...


My advice would be get Composer Cloud for a few months...then once you have more of an idea you can regroup and maybe buy.

A 1TB SSD is cheap enough and won’t go to waste if you stop CCX as it can be used to store your purchases.


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## easyrider (Apr 11, 2021)

Plus the new Opus engine will no doubt be a happy addition and can be used for all Eastwest Libraries.


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## Markrs (Apr 11, 2021)

3DC said:


> "Two Steps From Hell" but with Williams touch?


I am not particularly experienced, but I would say EW Hollywood Orchestra might be a decent match for that description. Especially with Stormdrum 3, Ministry of Rock 2 and Hollywood Choirs added in. You would get all those with CCX. Plus from 20th April it will all be in a new player called Opus, which also has an Orchestrator which could be useful.


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## d.healey (Apr 11, 2021)

3DC said:


> What would you suggest for Williams


Pencil + paper + piano + a lot of practice. Add in a Steven Spielberg and a George Lucas if you also want his level of success.


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## Double Helix (Apr 11, 2021)

d.healey said:


> Pencil + paper + piano + a lot of practice. . .


@3DC ~
This is what I downloaded: printed out fifteen or so copies at work so that I'd have a little supply for transcribing. Besides, because I'm not a particularly fast reader, it is excellent practice.


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## Consona (Apr 11, 2021)

3DC said:


> Good question but I hate it. Now I have to pick one.
> What would you suggest for Williams and what for modern trailers path? Is there something in the middle like "Two Steps From Hell" but with Williams touch?


For Williams, you need super convincing playable libraries that are expensive. Hundreds of dollars for every section.

For trailer stuff, you can buy 8dio's brass ensemble lite for 38 bucks...

And don't forget to save some money for effect plugins if you want to make high production level modern stuff.
Also, get some fundamental Mike Verta classes. The world doesn't need just another braaaaaaam composer.


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## el-bo (Apr 11, 2021)

Do you have talent and/or skills?

Also, do you have Kontakt?


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## Trash Panda (Apr 11, 2021)

Give Nucleus Lite a whirl for $100 and you get the cost off the upgrade to full if you decide to go that route. 

Nucleus can give you modern hybrid/epic with the modern mix and a bit more classical/Williams-style sound with the classic mix. You get ensembles, sections, choir and the most used soloists. The only limitation is the number of articulations, but you can get reasonable results for most of the short to long lengths stacking staccatissimo/spiccato with sustains. 

Can do the same thing with Areia Lite if you want more detailed strings work.


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## Markrs (Apr 11, 2021)

I should add to my CCX recommendation that something like Ethera Gold 2.5 (currently on sale at zero-g.co.uk) might be a good option as it gives you a wonderful true legato female and male vocalists, but also a huge number of sounds including Braams and Risers. It is a very solid bang for buck offering and works well with Epic and Hybrid compositions.


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## Markrs (Apr 11, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Give Nucleus Lite a whirl for $100 and you get the cost off the upgrade to full if you decide to go that route.
> 
> Nucleus can give you modern hybrid/epic with the modern mix and a bit more classical/Williams-style sound with the classic mix. You get ensembles, sections, choir and the most used soloists. The only limitation is the number of articulations, but you can get reasonable results for most of the short to long lengths stacking staccatissimo/spiccato with sustains.
> 
> Can do the same thing with Areia Lite if you want more detailed strings work.


I did wonder if Audio Imperia options might be a good fit. I don't own any so didn't feel able to recommend them, but based on how other use them and demo sounds, they could work very well.


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## Trash Panda (Apr 11, 2021)

Markrs said:


> I did wonder if Audio Imperia options might be a good fit. I don't own any so didn't feel able to recommend them, but based on how other use them and demo sounds, they could work very well.


I’ve spent an embarrassing amount of money picking up all the big name libraries (AI, CSS suite, BBCSO, AR1, HWO, etc.) and I still find myself reaching for Nucleus and Jaeger first; only using the others when they can’t do the job. YMMV


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## Markrs (Apr 11, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> I’ve spent an embarrassing amount of money picking up all the big name libraries (AI, CSS suite, BBCSO, AR1, HWO, etc.) and I still find myself reaching for Nucleus and Jaeger first; only using the others when they can’t do the job. YMMV


I have recently tried to use more of what I have, and I am actually overwhelmed with all I have to use. I also keep track of what I have spent, and it is quite eye watering (though I am sure less than many others on here), but yet, I often have defaults I use all the time, like Signature Grand piano and BBCSO Pro and the rest rarely gets used.

At some point I plan to ensure I use everything I own on at least one piece of music, just to ensure I use them.


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## easyrider (Apr 11, 2021)

Markrs said:


> I have recently tried to use more of what I have, and I am actually overwhelmed with all I have to use. I also keep track of what I have spent, and it is quite eye watering (though I am sure less than many others on here), but yet, I often have defaults I use all the time, like Signature Grand piano and BBCSO Pro and the rest rarely gets used.
> 
> At some point I plan to ensure I use everything I own on at least one piece of music, just to ensure I use them.


Classic GAS right there !


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## Markrs (Apr 11, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Classic GAS right there !


Yep! And probably an unhealthy dose of FOMO. The problem for me is I am always curious as to how things sound when used rather than just in videos.


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## mybadmemory (Apr 11, 2021)

3DC said:


> I guess Hollywood + Epic + All In One ( like BBC SO PRO with solo options ).
> Now that I think I am guessing Abbey Road One with Sparkling Woodwinds and Legendary Low Strings would be a very close fit. But there are no solo option as far as I know.
> 
> My budget is 1000 EUR for really good deal ( on sale ). Could stretch another 500 but rather not if not necessary.
> ...


Well, you won't find libraries that can do it all really. You will have to chose, both in terms of sound and workflow. BBCSO for examples neither sounds particularly Hollywood nor Epic. It sounds mostly classical. For 1000-1500 you can get a lot though, and you can probably start out with much less than that. A few popular options:


*BBCSO*: Sections and solos but no ensembles. Classical Sounding. Fantastic deal.

*AROOF*: Hollywood sounding. Ensembles only. No legatos except the expansions.

*CineSamples*: Hollywood sounding. Ensembles and Sections. All 4 core libraries are currently 50% off.

*Metropolis Arc*: De facto Old-school epic sound. Mainly ensembles though.

*Nucleus/Jaeger*: Most popular modern / hybrid sound. Ensembles and sections.


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## mybadmemory (Apr 11, 2021)

Above all I would recommend you to listen to A LOT of demos to really understand the differences in sound, as well as look at YouTube walkthroughs and reviews of any library you consider, to really understand what they can and can't do.


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## SupremeFist (Apr 11, 2021)

Consona said:


> The world doesn't need just another braaaaaaam composer.


You'd think that would be the case, and yet...


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## YuyaoSG (Apr 11, 2021)

You can subscribe to the EW cloud. And accumulate libraries, the principle is that do not buy the library until they provide a good discount.


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## Mark Kouznetsov (Apr 11, 2021)

Consona said:


> *You want to compose like John Williams* or sound like modern trailers? The second option will cost you way less money and way less time to be able to do it.


I don't think a library will make it happen. Although, with the rise of machines (A.I.), who knows?

(sorry to nit-pick, just wanted a quick joke).

P.S.: Seriously, though, have anybody heard new Amy Winehouse track made by A.I.? Scary stuff


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## Consona (Apr 11, 2021)

Mark Kouznetsov said:


> I don't think a library will make it happen. Although, with the rise of machines (A.I.), who knows?
> 
> (sorry to nit-pick, just wanted a quick joke).
> 
> P.S.: Seriously, though, have anybody heard new Amy Winehouse track made by A.I.? Scary stuff


AI is the last thing that could substitute Williams.


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## MauroPantin (Apr 11, 2021)

If you're after the Williams thing I would recommend ScoreClub and a lot of practice time set out. Libraries won't matter. Maybe StaffPad, it goes along nicely with that and sounds fantastic.


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## el-bo (Apr 11, 2021)

MauroPantin said:


> If you're after the Williams thing I would recommend ScoreClub and a lot of practice time set out. Libraries won't matter. Maybe StaffPad, it goes along nicely with that and sounds fantastic.


This is what I was trying to discover earlier i.e whether the op already has the skill to pull off Williams-esque composition, or if they are just looking for a library to be able to grow into, that will also cover that compositional style.


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## Trash Panda (Apr 11, 2021)

Skill level aside, from a technical perspective, for being able to do Williams-like pieces, you need the following from a sample library based on my studies:
- flexible brass soloists (trumpets, horns, bones) with snappy attacks for when he does his 2-4 divisi sections
- agile woodwinds with some of the extended family (piccolo, bass clarinet, etc) to handle all the runs and trills 
- multiple microphones so you can bring up the close mics for your big moments (think horns melody when Kylo Ren is introduced in The Force Awakens)
- Strings with both soft and aggressive shorts along and decent legato
- really, really, really good quality timpani and piattis

There’s probably a lot more I’m missing, but the only all-in-one library that could pull it off is probably BBCSO Pro or Hollywood Orchestra Diamond. To do really good Williams work, you’d probably have to Frankenstein several libraries together, or get some pricier stuff like Cinematic Studio Series suite or Cinesymphony suite.


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## el-bo (Apr 11, 2021)

3DC said:


> Music production and film score is my long term project so I need something to grow with me while I learn. I am obviously past BBC SO Discovery edition but still *very green newbie*.


Nothing wrong with 'up' buying and gradually growing into something, while at the same time having great sound to inspire. It's just a lot more risky to spend a lot of money up-front, when you could so easily change your priorities, not very far down the line.


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## mybadmemory (Apr 11, 2021)

I think BBCSO offers a great path for growing up from discover to core to pro over time.


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## el-bo (Apr 11, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> I think BBCSO offers a great path for growing up from discover to core to pro over time.


I don't have it, but it seems to be that way. And at the right time of year it can be had for very cheap.


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## Consona (Apr 12, 2021)

Doesn't BBCSO lack in dynamic range? Also how good is legato and stuff?

If 3DC likes Poledouris, Goldsmith and Morricone, I'd go with something like Cinematic Studio Strings, Brass and Woodwinds.


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## el-bo (Apr 12, 2021)

Consona said:


> Doesn't BBCSO lack in dynamic range? Also how good is legato and stuff?
> 
> If 3DC likes Poledouris, Goldsmith and Morricone, I'd go with something like Cinematic Studio Strings, Brass and Woodwinds.


That still misses percussion. And I still don’t think that a newb should be spending thousands on libraries.

I don’t mean newb in a derogatory sense, either.

I’m a better guitarist than I am orchestral composer (I know nothing about orchestral composition, so...  ). My recommendation for a beginning guitarist would be to avoid buying so cheap that they’ll be put off forever from playing due to tuning problems and finger-slicing frets. But at the other end, I’d caution against spending tons on a Martin.

A beginner can spend a hell of a lot of extra money for details and subtleties that they’re probably not yet equipped to discern. At the point the newbie becomes a not-so-newbie they’ll be far more aware of what they actually want to invest ‘real’ money into, at which point the landscape could’ve changed dramatically (Thinking of the upcoming Spitfire Abbey Road behemoth and the newer EastWest libraries, just for starters).

BBCSO may ‘on paper’ seem to be lacking, but it seems that composers that are far better than I will ever be have no issues. The fact that it can be had for about $220 (On sale, with the ‘Discovery’ discount) makes it a no-brainer (nay, Game-changer) starter (and more) for anything but the most *EPIC* of tracks. My only personal issue is with the scalability.

One day I might even go for it. Not until I’ve outgrown ASO, Discovery and Logic’s offerings, though.


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## mybadmemory (Apr 12, 2021)

Consona said:


> Doesn't BBCSO lack in dynamic range? Also how good is legato and stuff?
> 
> If 3DC likes Poledouris, Goldsmith and Morricone, I'd go with something like Cinematic Studio Strings, Brass and Woodwinds.


Well, the brass doesn’t go as brassy as some other libraries, at least not within the legato or longs patches. They do however have separate Quivre patches for that.

As for the rest of the library I actually think the opposite. The range from silent to loud seem much larger in BBCSO than in any other library I own.

It still doesn’t sound as “epic” as some alternatives but for the most part I really think that’s a matter of sound signature rather than dynamic range.


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## jaketanner (Apr 12, 2021)

Composer cloud does NOT need to be downloaded entirely. You can download only what you need...half of the sounds in the CC are very specific, and I would not suggest downloading it all...besides will take you days to do it. Another drawback is that once you start using the sounds, you may be stuck having to subscribe all the time, OR buy the libraries outright. I would suggest BBCSO for orchestral work and add a few here and there if you want Epic.

AR1 is a good start also, but ensemble instruments only. 

If you want good all in one starter library...look at VSL SE editions. Along with their BBO options for more epic work. Sound quality is top, and very usable. They say "starter" but really they are very professional versions of their bigger siblings...just not as feature rich and slightly less dynamics, but if you are starting out with a budget, it's a good option.

As for "film scoring"...you can score an entire film with Omnisphere if you wanted to...film scoring is not just orchestral at all...so I wouldn't categorize any of the libraries as "non" film scoring...


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## ChickenAndARoll (Apr 12, 2021)

jaketanner said:


> Composer cloud does NOT need to be downloaded entirely. You can download only what you need...half of the sounds in the CC are very specific, and I would not suggest downloading it all...besides will take you days to do it. Another drawback is that once you start using the sounds, you may be stuck having to subscribe all the time, OR buy the libraries outright. I would suggest BBCSO for orchestral work and add a few here and there if you want Epic.
> 
> AR1 is a good start also, but ensemble instruments only.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with the VSL Special Editions. If I could start over, the first libraries I would buy would be the Synchron-ized Special Edition 1 and 1 Plus. The amount of stuff you get is incredible, in addition to the VSL quality.


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