# Neo Woodwinds : I'm speechless



## leon chevalier (Mar 27, 2022)

Dear VI friends,

I very rarely start a topic but this time I don't understand why this new release do not make more noise !?



I'm just a hobbyist so my ear may foul me but it's the best woudwinds lib I've heard so far!



Ok there no oboe, but despite that, it sound like real thing to me !
Please let me know what you think, before I spend my hard earned money 😅


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## sostenuto (Mar 27, 2022)

leon chevalier said:


> Dear VI friends,
> 
> I very rarely start a topic but this time I don't understand why this new release do not make more noise !?
> 
> ...



Very interested as well. 
Oboe is concerning, as 8Dio promo Thread has critique of Claire Oboe ( contrasted with other Claire WW ). 
What is 'workable' Oboe VI to go with this Neo WW offering ??


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## Simon Lee (Mar 27, 2022)

leon chevalier said:


> Dear VI friends,
> 
> I very rarely start a topic but this time I don't understand why this new release do not make more noise !?
> 
> ...



There’s another thread talking about this Library, you may want to search for it.


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## Zanshin (Mar 27, 2022)

Simon Lee said:


> There’s another thread talking about this Library, you may want to search for it.


The commercial thread? This one can have have more open discussion …


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## leon chevalier (Mar 27, 2022)

Simon Lee said:


> There’s another thread talking about this Library, you may want to search for it.


I've search before posting but found only the developer thread. And the forum rules do not allow "hot" opinions on developer thread.
But sorry if there is already one in the sample talk forum.


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## leon chevalier (Mar 27, 2022)

Anyway any early adopters?


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## sostenuto (Mar 27, 2022)

Hoping 8Dio Warm Studio Woodwinds: Solo Oboe may be viable choice __ to complete ??


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## doctoremmet (Mar 27, 2022)

I am seriously considering this one. But I wouldn’t consider this to be a workhorse library. On the contrary, the tone, textures and extended techniques seem to be the main attractions here. So I guess that makes it a bit of a niche offering, and also explains the perceived “lack of attention”. Another reason being it was released just a day ago.  

Like the OP, the tone does strike me as good, but I wouldn’t call it the best woodwind library I’ve ever heard (not by a stretch).

If any future expansion (the developer hinted at it yesterday) would contain an oboe, alto flute, cor anglais and a bass clarinet or maybe something like an alto clarinet or heckelphone, I’d be very happy.

Will consider some more and when I do decide to take the plunge I’ll report back.


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## doctoremmet (Mar 27, 2022)

sostenuto said:


> Hoping 8Dio Warm Studio Woodwinds: Solo Oboe may be viable choice __ to complete ??


Honestly, there’s not much wrong with the Claire one. You also may want to check @Rudianos’ ultimate oboe thread 

Of course, like any post by Doctoremmet on this topic, I feel compelled to point you to what ARE indeed the best woodwinds ever sampled: Xsample’s oboe 






Ultimate Solo Oboe Comparison Thread


Now we have our famous piano thread ... https://vi-control.net/community/threads/ultimate-piano-comparison-thread.115615/ a violin thread ... https://vi-control.net/community/threads/ultimate-solo-violin-comparison-thread.116781/ and now drum roll please.... an Oboe Thread! The goal is to...




vi-control.net


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## sostenuto (Mar 27, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Honestly, there’s not much wrong with the Claire one. You also may want to check @Rudianos’ ultimate oboe thread
> 
> Of course, like any post by Doctoremmet on this topic, I feel compelled to point you to what ARE indeed the best woodwinds ever sampled: Xsample’s oboe
> 
> ...


THX for cool Thread reference. OMG _ Xsample.de !!  🙄 
Keeping Neo on 'non-workhorse' list while revisiting solo WW alternatives, as 8Dio Claire promo ends.


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## leon chevalier (Mar 27, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Honestly, there’s not much wrong with the Claire one. You also may want to check @Rudianos’ ultimate oboe thread
> 
> Of course, like any post by Doctoremmet on this topic, I feel compelled to point you to what ARE indeed the best woodwinds ever sampled: Xsample’s oboe
> 
> ...


Thanks for your thoughts. My primary woodwinds library is cinematic studio woodwinds. I love it but I feel it lack sometimes a bit of character in the more exposed passages. 
This could be the perfect complement. But I don't want this to be one of those "Hard drive sleeping libraries" so I hope for some users feedback !


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## ism (Mar 27, 2022)

leon chevalier said:


> Dear VI friends,
> 
> I very rarely start a topic but this time I don't understand why this new release do not make more noise !?
> 
> ...



Thanks for point this library out - I'd missed it somehow.

The only clarinet I currently have that is similarly Gershwin-ready is Fluffy clarinet, which also explicitly samples the expressiveness necessary for this piece:

* *


Neo Woodwinds really does look good for it's articulation list. 

But also seems quite limited in dynamic - that's just an impression, please someone correct me if I'm wrong.


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## doctoremmet (Mar 27, 2022)

leon chevalier said:


> This could be the perfect complement.


Absolutely! I think you are right that this one may complement many composers’ plain vanilla winds collections. Also, on repeated listens of the walkthrough I think the flute and bassoon have a tone that is quite unique. 

I have decided to get it and will let you know later this week. Maybe I can post some noodles / examples as well.


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## doctoremmet (Mar 27, 2022)

ism said:


> But also seems quite limited in dynamic


My exact thoughts… We’ll find out soon enough. It may not necessarily be a bad thing if there aren’t (m)any velocity layers, as I am increasingly of the conviction that for woodwind samples that restriction may actually make an instrument more musically useful than having to deal with a lot of phasing issues.


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## leon chevalier (Mar 27, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Absolutely! I think you are right that this one may complement many composers’ plain vanilla winds collections. Also, on repeated listens of the walkthrough I think the flute and bassoon have a tone that is quite unique.
> 
> I have decided to get it and will let you know later this week. Maybe I can post some noodles / examples as well.


You're my hero !


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## doctoremmet (Mar 27, 2022)

Tip, for early adopters: use this coupon code (likely only applicable once) —>






As promised, I’ll report back here soon. Tomorrow I will return to my studio and download the Clarinette en Rose, the new Nick Torretta Extended Clarinet collection and now this one. I call it Woody Monday.


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## ism (Mar 27, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> My exact thoughts… We’ll find out soon enough. It may not necessarily be a bad thing if there aren’t (m)any velocity layers, as I am increasingly of the conviction that for woodwind samples that restriction may actually make an instrument more musically useful than having to deal with a lot of phasing issues.




It's interesting how winds libraries can be pieced together productively. 

My favorite example is to use SSW for slower, crossfade driven musicalities, which mix with even more lyrical moments in drawing on the Claire arcs. And the fluffy Cl offers more detail in the crossfaded space when I need it (although nothing beats the sheer sonority of SSW for me, even if other libraries sample more articulations and certain other dimensions of expressiveness ).

Neo winds sound more like they'd augment CSW, or maybe XSamples?, more easily than the Claire or SSW. But there are some seriously fun articulations here, so this is a library I'll be keeping an eye on.


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## doctoremmet (Mar 27, 2022)

First bonuspoints scored ✅ - they use @pulsedownloader - always a good thing!


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## pulsedownloader (Mar 27, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> First bonuspoints scored ✅ - they use @pulsedownloader - always a good thing!


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## leon chevalier (Mar 27, 2022)

ism said:


> Thanks for point this library out - I'd missed it somehow.
> 
> The only clarinet I currently have that is similarly Gershwin-ready is Fluffy clarinet, which also explicitly samples the expressiveness necessary for this piece:
> 
> ...



Thanks for the link!
I was often very tempted by fluffy woods but somehow never enough to do it.
(I prefer the neo ww demo ! But all my love for the fluffy guys, lot of great lib from them)


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Mar 27, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Maybe I can post some noodles / examples as well.


That would be interesting


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## doctoremmet (Mar 27, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> That would be interesting


Will do Henrik.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Mar 27, 2022)

Will do a review next week! In short, so far the extended techniques and playability are wonderful and so much fun, while the tone and legato isn’t my absolute favourite. Will expand shortly!


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## Bee_Abney (Mar 27, 2022)

pulsedownloader said:


>



I love Pulse Downloader, easy, intuitive, great support, great for re-downloading and updates.

But @pulsedownloader? Bit needy.


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## pulsedownloader (Mar 27, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> I love Pulse Downloader, easy, intuitive, great support, great for re-downloading and updates.
> 
> But @pulsedownloader? Bit needy.


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## Nigel Andreola (Mar 27, 2022)

sostenuto said:


> Hoping 8Dio Warm Studio Woodwinds: Solo Oboe may be viable choice __ to complete ??


I have a piece releasing tomorrow that uses the clarinet from that series. 8dio WSW are not jazzy, nor are they orchestral. I'm not sure how well it would fit in. It's more in line with what you'd here at a Loggins and Messina concert. I bought it for that style. Perhaps something from VSL would be a better fit? All their instruments are on sale today, so VSL might be worth looking into for a single instrument.


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## doctoremmet (Mar 27, 2022)

Nigel Andreola said:


> WSW are not jazzy, nor are they orchestral. I'm not sure how well it would fit in.


This is true. Yet they have their place musically. Curious to hear your piece; will you post it on here somewhere?


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## Nigel Andreola (Mar 27, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> This is true. Yet they have their place musically. Curious to hear your piece; will you post it on here somewhere?


My piece starts out as a small, close ensemble with piano, viola, clarinet, bassoon and concertina. It ends with a strings section and some soft choir. I liked the woodwinds in Loggins & Messina - _Sailin' the Wind_ and wanted to do something similar. While playing with the Berlin Strings violin section, I noticed they sound like the violins in 1950s era Italian American pop songs. In the movie _The Best Years of Our Lives,_ there's a scene with what I believe is a solo viola playing forward in the mix. I thought it would be neat to make a piece that combines those sounds. It's very corny. I'll share it when it's live.


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## robgb (Mar 27, 2022)

sostenuto said:


> Hoping 8Dio Warm Studio Woodwinds: Solo Oboe may be viable choice __ to complete ??


Not particularly nice. 8Diobo is much better.


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## Nigel Andreola (Mar 27, 2022)

robgb said:


> Not particularly nice. 8Diobo is much better.


I have Berlin Woodwinds. I do not have anything for orchestral soloist work. In your opinion, what would be a better buy? The Berlin Woodwinds Soloists bundle (I can get it for 50% off), or the 8dio Claire bundle (currently on sale)?


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## AMBi (Mar 27, 2022)

sostenuto said:


> Hoping 8Dio Warm Studio Woodwinds: Solo Oboe may be viable choice __ to complete ??


I really love the ISWW Oboe since it has a pretty unique, slightly less nasally character than the usual Oboe and the vibrato is pretty gentle.

It’s less traditional than the Claire one but still a beautiful instrument.


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## Nigel Andreola (Mar 27, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> This is true. Yet they have their place musically. Curious to hear your piece; will you post it on here somewhere?


I had my piece scheduled to release on the 28th. Somehow it got released today.🤔 I have video of myself painting the album art that I'll likely share sometime soon.


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## doctoremmet (Mar 27, 2022)

Loving it.


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## doctoremmet (Mar 28, 2022)

Here we go...


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## Baronvonheadless (Mar 28, 2022)

I need to look deeper into these. (Haven’t had time for a deep dive. Busy babysitting my nephews for the week).

I have bbc pro, various OT winds including whisper, and recently got CSW to add to my winds collection/tool kit. Do these offer something I don’t already have? 

For some reason I’ve been obsessed with woodwinds lately and really want to increase my writing with them. Im currently writing a symphony. 

But seems like these might help more with…jazz? 

Curious what ppl with these/ xsample think *cough* @doctoremmet *cough*


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## doctoremmet (Mar 29, 2022)

Baronvonheadless said:


> Curious what ppl with these/ xsample think *cough* @doctoremmet *cough*


Well… first impressions are good! I SO want to make a video for you, but I have zero skills in that department to be honest - and I’d love to reach Cory Pelizzari levels of quality which of course is unattainable for people like myself. Yet I was actually thinking of juxtaposing the NEO Woodwinds and the Xsample ones, seeing how each aims for attaining certain “extended” textures with woodwind instruments. So we basically had the same idea Michael.

My main problem lies in a certain perfectionism and a lack of video recording / editing skills, which is holding me back from producing much of anything. I do still hope I can make this video, so bear with me. In the mean time Chris Siu will drop his review shortly I think.


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## Bee_Abney (Mar 29, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Well… first impressions are good! I SO want to make a video for you, but I have zero skills in that department to be honest - and I’d love to reach Cory Pelizzari levels of quality which of course is unattainable for people like myself. Yet I was actually thinking of juxtaposing the NEO Woodwinds and the Xsample ones, seeing how each aims for attaining certain “extended” textures with woodwind instruments. So we basiclly had the same idea Michael.
> 
> My main problem lies in a certain perfectionism and a lack of video recording / editing skills, which is holding me back from producing much of anything. I do still hope I can make this video, so bear with me. In the mean time Chris Siu will drop his review shortly I think.



Perfectionism is a flaw.

I'd love to make videos like Databroth, but for exploring libraries or using them in compositions. Just for sharing information here, really. Not for sound design in synths - that would be comical though; less funny-haha, more funny-horrific. I don't know if my computer could handle it, though.

I'd really like to see videos by you. You have built up a lot of knowledge that we VI-Vampires would love to suck up. You might enjoy the recording process, it can just give some structure to a bit of exploration; but editing afterwards can be tough if you are too focused on perfection. Plus, it takes ages. I think that is one reason why so many YouTubers do recorded livestreams.


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## doctoremmet (Mar 29, 2022)

Nah, I’ll skip the editing all together I think. I am struggling with rendering out audio from Ableton and then stitching it back together with video captures of said DAW. I can’t grab audio and video together at the same time. It’s little out-of-sync bits that tend to drive me crazy. 

Anyway… I’ll lower my standards. It’s not like I’ll pass the Akarin test any time soon in terms of putting audio examples where my mouth is. Ever since that’s become somewhat of a criterium for usefulness I’ve felt even more useless than I used to do haha. And any discarded noodle by Michael still sounds better than my “top work” so one has to ask oneself who are we even kidding here. 

That said. I’ll try to post something this week.


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## Bee_Abney (Mar 29, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Nah, I’ll skip the editing all together I think. I am struggling with rendering out audio from Ableton and then stitching it back together with video captures of said DAW. I can’t grab audio and video together at the same time. It’s little out-of-sync bits that tend to drive me crazy.
> 
> Anyway… I’ll lower my standards. It’s not like I’ll pass the Akarin test any time soon in terms of putting audio examples where my mouth is. Ever since that’s become somewhat of a criterium for usefulness I’ve felt even more useless than I used to do haha. And any discarded noodle by Michael still sounds better than my “top work” so one has to ask oneself who are we even kidding here.
> 
> That said. I’ll try to post something this week.



That would be wonderful. I'm something of a connosieur of low standards. They are a defacto prerequisite in my friends...


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## doctoremmet (Mar 29, 2022)

Well Bee, I’ll gladly lower them then. Friendship > being useful for the 23 human beings on this planet with a freaking sampled woodwind obsession. Right?

❤️


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## Bee_Abney (Mar 29, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Well Bee, I’ll gladly lower them then. Friendship > being useful for the 23 human beings on this planet with a freaking sampled woodwind obsession. Right?
> 
> ❤️



Friendship: the value that cannot be captured in an analysis of how good it makes the world.


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## Zanshin (Mar 29, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> My main problem lies in a certain perfectionism and a lack of video recording / editing skills, which is holding me back from producing much of anything. I do still hope I can make this video, so bear with me. In the mean time Chris Siu will drop his review shortly I think.


I'm still waiting for the saxophone VI video ... ... ... (No, not really)

Like @Bee_Abney I'd also love to see you do some videos. Perhaps live twitch stream would be a better fit for you. No room for perfectionism then, you could post the live streams to youtube after


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## doctoremmet (Mar 29, 2022)

First look & listen at the Neo Woodwind Soloists clarinet legato patch. It does not excel at shorts, which arguably a sustain patch maybe shouldn't anyway. But this one does really not do a great job at shorts [in the lower register] (still, in the context of playing them with a sustain patch! I could have keyswitched in a short articulation of course). My Xsample woodwinds for example could have pulled the first passage off better (but do not go as low register wise). In the lower registers it sounds really boxy (note: of course in terms of range that lowest note at the beginning is more in bass clarinet territory and most sample libraries do not even go as low). So this is not trying to be as plonkable as an Infinite Woodwinds or a Performancesamples instrument. I did try and sneak in a couple of faster-played notes higher up on the keyboard, which did render better results, to be fair.

I do struggle with the attack transients of some notes which every now and then contain clicky / airy noises. Which is fine, except I can’t really seem to control them and rein them in a bit. It doesn’t appear to be round robin related but rather velocity based. I need to look into that further.

But overall I do like the instrument. No endlessly looping sustains though, for people who are bothered by such a thing. (I’m not).

The GUI is very dark which makes it a pain to read on my monitor. Once the little blue "reverb on" indicator light is turned off I am having a hard time finding where I need to click to turn it on again.

That said, here's a first noodle with the clarinet. No edits. No mix. More to come over the course of the coming days. 

View attachment First look video - 1.mp3


I turned off the default built-in reverb (a plate) and applied some SP2016.

Mic settings used:






Reverb settings used:


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## biomuse (Mar 29, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> First look & listen at the Neo Woodwind Soloists clarinet legato patch. It does not excel at shorts, which arguably a sustain patch maybe shouldn't anyway. But this one does really not do a great job at shorts [in the lower register] (still, in the context of playing them with a sustain patch! I could have keyswitched in a short articulation of course). My Xsample woodwinds for example could have pulled the first passage off better (but do not go as low register wise). In the lower registers it sounds really boxy (note: of course in terms of range that lowest note at the beginning is more in bass clarinet territory and most sample libraries do not even go as low). So this is not trying to be as plonkable as an Infinite Woodwinds or a Performancesamples instrument. I did try and sneak in a couple of faster-played notes higher up on the keyboard, which did render better results, to be fair.
> 
> I do struggle with the attack transients of some notes which every now and then contain clicky / airy noises. Which is fine, except I can’t really seem to control them and rein them in a bit. It doesn’t appear to be round robin related but rather velocity based. I need to look into that further.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this. Question: does the fast passages technique shown in the video for the recorder patch, i.e, using the Trills articulation with legato switch on for faster passages, work in the clarinet patch, or not so much?

(Also, does your mental link with Herr Winkler give you any insight into his potential plans for a Spring sale?


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## doctoremmet (Mar 29, 2022)

biomuse said:


> Question: does the fast passages technique shown in the video for the recorder patch, i.e, using the Trills articulation with legato switch on for faster passages, work in the clarinet patch, or not so much?


Will try soon and report back.

As for my spiritual connection with Herr Winkler, I haven’t the faintest idea of a sale. But if memory serves, there was one last year around Easter?


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Mar 29, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> First look & listen at the Neo Woodwind Soloists clarinet legato patch. It does not excel at shorts, which arguably a sustain patch maybe shouldn't anyway. But this one does really not do a great job at shorts [in the lower register] (still, in the context of playing them with a sustain patch! I could have keyswitched in a short articulation of course). My Xsample woodwinds for example could have pulled the first passage off better (but do not go as low register wise). In the lower registers it sounds really boxy (note: of course in terms of range that lowest note at the beginning is more in bass clarinet territory and most sample libraries do not even go as low). So this is not trying to be as plonkable as an Infinite Woodwinds or a Performancesamples instrument. I did try and sneak in a couple of faster-played notes higher up on the keyboard, which did render better results, to be fair.
> 
> I do struggle with the attack transients of some notes which every now and then contain clicky / airy noises. Which is fine, except I can’t really seem to control them and rein them in a bit. It doesn’t appear to be round robin related but rather velocity based. I need to look into that further.
> 
> ...


Good effort with the clarinet example, thanks for posting. I would put in small breaks here and there to allow for breathing. You’re right about that GUI, that’s really very dark.


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## Zanshin (Mar 29, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> I would put in small breaks here and there to allow for breathing.


He said it's a noodle, you are one tough customer Henrik!!


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## doctoremmet (Mar 29, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Good effort with the clarinet example, thanks for posting. I would put in small breaks here and there to allow for breathing. You’re right about that GUI, that’s really very dark.


Thanks Henrik. Yes - good hint hehe, but here I wasn’t necessarily going for anything remotely passable for a real player. These are really just -literally- my very first notes played on the instrument. More or less to (stress)test and get myself acquainted. I hope it can serve a purpose as a demo by an absolute unskilled hobbyist, more or less to make clear what can be achieved by a noob.


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## Bee_Abney (Mar 29, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> First look & listen at the Neo Woodwind Soloists clarinet legato patch. It does not excel at shorts, which arguably a sustain patch maybe shouldn't anyway. But this one does really not do a great job at shorts [in the lower register] (still, in the context of playing them with a sustain patch! I could have keyswitched in a short articulation of course). My Xsample woodwinds for example could have pulled the first passage off better (but do not go as low register wise). In the lower registers it sounds really boxy (note: of course in terms of range that lowest note at the beginning is more in bass clarinet territory and most sample libraries do not even go as low). So this is not trying to be as plonkable as an Infinite Woodwinds or a Performancesamples instrument. I did try and sneak in a couple of faster-played notes higher up on the keyboard, which did render better results, to be fair.
> 
> I do struggle with the attack transients of some notes which every now and then contain clicky / airy noises. Which is fine, except I can’t really seem to control them and rein them in a bit. It doesn’t appear to be round robin related but rather velocity based. I need to look into that further.
> 
> ...



Very beautiful, but I feel that had more to do with the notes played. The samples sound very intimate (that is, a good close microphone, breath sounds, and so on), and there is definitely a sense of the distinctive beauty of the instrument.


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## Bee_Abney (Mar 29, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Good effort with the clarinet example, thanks for posting. I would put in small breaks here and there to allow for breathing. You’re right about that GUI, that’s really very dark.



Your comment was a good effort; but your first sentence lacks the required existential verb and your second is disappointingly vague. Your third sentence, rather like this one, might have been better as a new paragraph given the contextually significant change of topic.


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## doctoremmet (Mar 29, 2022)

The chord sequence and basic composition (basically everything there is to like), “the notes” (at least the good ones) are all Mick Karn’s. That is to say, I played some bits of it by heart. The man is a legend and a musical hero of mine. His command of the fretless bass and all woodwind instruments has been an eternal inspiration.


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## Bee_Abney (Mar 29, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> The chord sequence and basic composition (basically everything there is to like), “the notes” (at least the good ones) are all Mick Karn’s. That is to say, I played some bits of it by heart. The man is a legend and a musical hero of mine. His command of the fretless bass and all woodwind instruments has been an eternal inspiration.




Well done at dodging another compliment! I'll keep trying.


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## leon chevalier (Mar 29, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> First look & listen at the Neo Woodwind Soloists clarinet legato patch. It does not excel at shorts, which arguably a sustain patch maybe shouldn't anyway. But this one does really not do a great job at shorts [in the lower register] (still, in the context of playing them with a sustain patch! I could have keyswitched in a short articulation of course). My Xsample woodwinds for example could have pulled the first passage off better (but do not go as low register wise). In the lower registers it sounds really boxy (note: of course in terms of range that lowest note at the beginning is more in bass clarinet territory and most sample libraries do not even go as low). So this is not trying to be as plonkable as an Infinite Woodwinds or a Performancesamples instrument. I did try and sneak in a couple of faster-played notes higher up on the keyboard, which did render better results, to be fair.
> 
> I do struggle with the attack transients of some notes which every now and then contain clicky / airy noises. Which is fine, except I can’t really seem to control them and rein them in a bit. It doesn’t appear to be round robin related but rather velocity based. I need to look into that further.
> 
> ...


Thanks Doctor for the feedback. I really like the sound of your test. I'm close to jump  I just wait for a few more user demos. Thanks for taking the time to share !


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## doctoremmet (Mar 29, 2022)

leon chevalier said:


> Thanks Doctor for the feedback. I really like the sound of your test. I'm close to jump  I just wait for a few more user demos. Thanks for taking the time to share !


If you can wait until friday, I will likely upload three more short contextual examples like this one this thursday.


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## doctoremmet (Mar 29, 2022)

leon chevalier said:


> I really like the sound of your test.


I’ve been able to A/B the clarinet against some other VIs I have and it does have a very nice and unique character, not really comparable to any other clarinet sample I am aware of. I really want to try and play the IRCAM Solo Instruments 2 one again, as I was somewhat reminded of that one. But I may be totally wrong about that and there will likely not be any similarities at all. 

Like Bee says… this one automatically seems to inspire a moderate intimate style of playing. I kind of subscribe to Simeon’s notion that each virtual instrument takes you on its own journey and brings out a certain something that can take you to unexpected places. In a way the instrument plays you.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Mar 29, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Your comment was a good effort; but your first sentence lacks the required existential verb and your second is disappointingly vague. Your third sentence, rather like this one, might have been better as a new paragraph given the contextually significant change of topic.


I don't even know what existential verb means!


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## Bee_Abney (Mar 29, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> I don't even know what existential verb means!



Sorry for my questionable sense of humour! 

It's 'to be'.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Mar 29, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Sorry for my questionable sense of humour!
> 
> It's 'to be'.


Haha ok! Thanks for explaining  No worries!


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## leon chevalier (Mar 29, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> I’ve been able to A/B the clarinet against some other VIs I have and it does have a very nice and unique character, not really comparable to any other clarinet sample I am aware of. I really want to try and play the IRCAM Solo Instruments 2 one again, as I was somewhat reminded of that one. But I may be totally wrong about that and there will likely not be any similarities at all.
> 
> Like Bee says… this one automatically seems to inspire a moderate intimate style of playing. I kind of subscribe to Simeon’s notion that each virtual instrument takes you on its own journey and brings out a certain something that can take you to unexpected places. In a way the instrument plays you.


It's totally in this mellow, intimate and nostalgic moment that see my self using it.
Did you try to put it in a more orchestral space ? Do the mic options allow a more distant sound ?


----------



## doctoremmet (Mar 29, 2022)

leon chevalier said:


> It's totally in this mellow, intimate and nostalgic moment that see my self using it.
> Did you try to put it in a more orchestral space ? Do the mic options allow a more distant sound ?


Yes, I dialed up the mid mics for this example (I always end up making more studio-type music I guess), but with the overhead and distant mics a more roomy sound is easily achieved. I don’t have a lot of orchestral background music readily available to insert these instruments in, but I’ll try and make sure to create something a little more dense, orchestral and more soundstage-like / remote for the next example.


----------



## Vladinemir (Mar 29, 2022)

Thank you for sharing. Are short articulations played fast (with or without legato) usable in wide span of bpm?
After watching the videos I guess there is only legato with vibrato.


----------



## doctoremmet (Mar 30, 2022)




----------



## leon chevalier (Mar 30, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


>



The rhapsody in blue that blew my mind was actually pre recorded, I'm kind of disappointed...


----------



## leon chevalier (Mar 30, 2022)

Sure it was sounding like real thing, at least my ear did not betray me !


----------



## doctoremmet (Mar 30, 2022)

leon chevalier said:


> The rhapsody in blue that blew my mind was actually pre recorded, I'm kind of disappointed...


But that was made clear from the start in the walkthrough? The developer said it was a recording they decided to stick in there, a bit cheeky. Just for fun. So at least he has been honest about that. Maybe you missed that.

A bit of a gimmick to be honest. The closest thing to a library that can pull off that style is the Clarinette en Rose I guess. But playing styles like that are so unique they’ll never be recreated with static samples anyway.


----------



## Soundbed (Mar 30, 2022)

Are we looking for woodwinds that can do Rhapsody in Blue?









Infinite Woodwinds - Gershwin's "Rhapsody in Blue" — Aaron Venture


Listen to Gershwin's "Rhapsody in Blue" performed with Infinite Woodwinds and Infinite Brass! Preview all the rooms, download the MIDI and learn more about the performance in general.




www.aaronventure.com





(studio version is driest)


----------



## leon chevalier (Mar 30, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> But that was made clear from the start in the walkthrough? The developer said it was a recording they decided to stick in there, a bit cheeky. Just for fun. So at least he has been honest about that. Maybe you missed that.
> 
> A bit of a gimmick to be honest. The closest thing to a library that can pull off that style is the Clarinette en Rose I guess. But playing styles like that are so unique they’ll never be recreated with static samples anyway.


I missed it, so the dev are honest, good for them. My bad.


----------



## leon chevalier (Mar 30, 2022)

Soundbed said:


> Are we looking for woodwinds that can do Rhapsody in Blue?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Indeed, infinite ww looks great, but a bit expensive for me now. Thanks Anyway for the link on rhapsody !


----------



## Soundbed (Mar 30, 2022)

leon chevalier said:


> Indeed, infinite ww looks great, but a bit expensive for me now. Thanks Anyway for the link on rhapsody !


It's about $200 on sale once or twice a year, I believe (oops! only if you "crossgrade" from Brass or in the future another product, I guess). fwiw

And it has an oboe


----------



## Bee_Abney (Mar 30, 2022)

Soundbed said:


> It's about $200 on sale once or twice a year, I believe. fwiw
> 
> And it has an oboe


I’ve set my heart on that library, but I had no idea it ever got that cheap. Thanks!

My intention is to set money aside so I’m ready to pounce when it goes on sale. But I keep buying other things...


----------



## Soundbed (Mar 30, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> I’ve set my heart on that library, but I had no idea it ever got that cheap. Thanks!
> 
> My intention is to set money aside so I’m ready to pounce when it goes on sale. But I keep buying other things...


Thanks for keeping me honest ... I should have checked better; it's $199 as a crossgrade, e.g., from Brass or in the future other products.


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## Bee_Abney (Mar 30, 2022)

Soundbed said:


> Thanks for keeping me honest ... I should have checked better; it's $199 as a crossgrade, e.g., from Brass or in the future other products.



Thanks for the correction! I believe they are very much worth their price. I want the full Infinite series.

For now, I pretty much have my woodwind covered with a mostly Chinese selection. But it would be nice to try a little more western-style orchestral music with a better library than my current ones (some good ensembles and some bad sections). If a sudden need arises in the meantime I'll likely turn to Composer Cloud. Or make do and try to distract the listener with Tokyo Scoring Strings, which is really lovely and spry.


----------



## Futchibon (Mar 30, 2022)

Swam Clarinets does RiB really well too


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 30, 2022)

What .... No Oboe ? I'm speechless too. 

How dare they omit such a beautiful woodwind instrument ?

Well, Then .... No Buy.

Sorry, I would take an Oboe over a Piccolo any day.


----------



## Futchibon (Mar 30, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Thanks for the correction! I believe they are very much worth their price. I want the full Infinite series.
> 
> For now, I pretty much have my woodwind covered with a mostly Chinese selection. But it would be nice to try a little more western-style orchestral music with a better library than my current ones (some good ensembles and some bad sections). If a sudden need arises in the meantime I'll likely turn to Composer Cloud. Or make do and try to distract the listener with Tokyo Scoring Strings, which is really lovely and spry.


Have you had a look at xsample winds? Amazing blend of tone, expression and playability. Can be bought ala carte too if you want to dip your toes in, and offer a 35% EDU discount.


----------



## Futchibon (Mar 30, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Friendship > being useful for the *23* human beings on this planet with a freaking sampled woodwind obsession.


Spooky!


----------



## Bee_Abney (Mar 30, 2022)

Futchibon said:


> Spooky!



Ooh, too saxy!


----------



## Bee_Abney (Mar 30, 2022)

Futchibon said:


> Have you had a look at xsample winds? Amazing blend of tone, expression and playability. Can be bought ala carte too if you want to dip your toes in, and offer a 35% EDU discount.



I have watched a lot of demos and they do sound amazing. Thanks, you're right, I think I should include Xsample as a possible alternative or compliment.


----------



## doctoremmet (Mar 31, 2022)

So, here's my second example. I've tried to incorporate the piccolo and the bassoon in a contextual orchestral setting this time.

So with regard to the bassoon what is disappointing is that the staccato and marcato patches do not stop playing when you lift the key, in other words the entire recorded "phrase" will at all times always totally ring out, there's no short release sample for when one releases the key earlier. This severely cripples my notion of plonkability, but one can get used to it. Luckily there is a staccatissimo patch as well, that I put to use here and quite like. And those multiphonics are just big fun.

The piccolo is really agile and playable. Very usable legato patch.

View attachment Example 2 Piccolo and Bassoon - orchestral.mp3


Again, this is just a noodle that I quickly put together. Nothing particularly musically interesting going on here and that was not the point to be honest. I hope this will still be of use for some of you. I did not mix this at all, the only thing I did was apply some Seventh Heaven (Core) to the master to glue the various parts together a bit.

Settings / track information:


















Reverb settings applied on master:


----------



## Bee_Abney (Mar 31, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> So, here's my second example. I've tried to incorporate the piccolo and the bassoon in a contextual orchestral setting this time.
> 
> So with regard to the bassoon what is disappointing is that the staccato and marcato patches do not stop playing when you lift the key, in other words the entire recorded "phrase" will at all times always totally ring out, there's no short release sample for when one releases the key earlier. This severely cripples my notion of plonkability, but one can get used to it. Luckily there is a staccatissimo patch as well, that I put to use here and quite like. And those multiphonics are just big fun.
> 
> ...


I particularly like the piccolo and whatever you did to that poor bassoon at the end.

It turns out that the reason there is a piccolo and not an oboe is due to the availability of a particular piccolo player (source: Chris Siu's video). It was decided that getting this particular musician was worth switching instruments for. It also turns out that, to me, the piccolo sounds like it may be the star of the library.


----------



## SupremeFist (Mar 31, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> I particularly like the piccolo and whatever you did to that poor bassoon at the end.


More pieces should end with the murder of a bassoonist.


----------



## Soundbed (Mar 31, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> More pieces should end with the murder of a bassoonist.


As I tell my seven year old boys, “it’s only ketchup. They are only playing dead.”


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 31, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> It turns out that the reason there is a piccolo and not an oboe is due to the availability of a particular piccolo player (source: Chris Siu's video). It was decided that getting this particular musician was worth switching instruments for. It also turns out that, to me, the piccolo sounds like it may be the star of the library.


My wallet is very happy, and wishes to Thank the Piccolo player.


----------



## Bee_Abney (Mar 31, 2022)

Soundbed said:


> As I tell my seven year old boys, “it’s only ketchup. They are only playing dead.”


You take your children to some curious concerts.

Tell me, have you ever taken them to watch 'The Aristocrats'?


----------



## Bee_Abney (Mar 31, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> My wallet is very happy, and wishes to Thank the Piccolo player.


For want of an oboe, a sale was lost?


----------



## doctoremmet (Apr 1, 2022)

*We Had To Dispose Of The Body Of A Dead Bassoonist!






You'll Never Guess What Happened Next!!
Hit That Subscribe Button And Never Miss An Exciting Update Ever Again

Like this content? Consider sponsoring me!




*


----------



## Markrs (Apr 1, 2022)




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## moon (Apr 4, 2022)

So I was listening to the clips and thought the clarinet sounded quite odd. But then I looked at the videos and I noticed that the default mic mix for the clarinet has the mid mics (L and R) both dead in the center. Can anyone confirm this? And how does it sound with them panned appropriately?


----------



## doctoremmet (Apr 5, 2022)

moon said:


> I noticed that the default mic mix for the clarinet has the mid mics (L and R) both dead in the center. Can anyone confirm this? And how does it sound with them panned appropriately?


This is indeed the library's default setting:






Here's a short audio clip containing the following:

View attachment NWW Clarinet mic panning comparison.mp3


1. Legato patch - rendered with default mic settings - default internal reverb on

2. Legato patch - rendered with mic setting like shown below (mid mics hard panned to LR) - default internal reverb on






3. Legato patch - mid mics only in unpanned position - no internal reverb - VSL MIR Pro on









4. Legato patch - same settings as 3 - LiquidSonics Cinematic Rooms (Core version) applied






5. Ornament patch - default mic settings - internal reverb on

6. Ornament patch - mid mics hard panned to LR - internal reverb on


----------



## moon (Apr 5, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> This is indeed the library's default setting:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for putting that together! But I gotta say, it doesn't sound a whole lot different to me...


----------



## doctoremmet (Apr 5, 2022)

moon said:


> Thanks for putting that together! But I gotta say, it doesn't sound a whole lot different to me...


Not at all, right? But I decided to not jump to any conclusions. Sometimes my ears deceive me. So I thought I’d just post the audio and let you hear it 

Granted, this clarinet VI definitely has its own tone. I don’t know if I’d call it ‘quite odd’, but definitely distinctive. Although I do feel in certain types of music I’ll get proper use out of it. It’s a bit moody and dark.


----------



## kgdrum (Apr 5, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> That would be wonderful. I'm something of a connosieur of low standards. They are a defacto prerequisite in my friends...


That certainly explains a few things………….


----------



## moon (Apr 5, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Not at all, right? But I decided to not jump to any conclusions. Sometimes my ears deceive me. So I thought I’d just post the audio and let you hear it
> 
> Granted, this clarinet VI definitely has its own tone. I don’t know if I’d call it ‘quite odd’, but definitely distinctive. Although I do feel in certain types of music I’ll get proper use out of it. It’s a bit moody and dark.


Maybe it's the mic balance? I'm not sure what it is my ears are hearing. I did like the tone of the mid mics only the best.


----------



## doctoremmet (Apr 5, 2022)

I concur I do as well. Overall this entire library does have a wee bit of an intrinsic “boxy” sonic character, that I can never really “unhear”. Like they were recorded in a confined space or a booth, and the recordings have captured certain slightly unpleasant resonances. In a mix it isn’t much of a problem to be honest and the two reed instruments do ‘suffer’ from that a bit more than the two flutes. Woodwinds are apparently really difficult to truly capture in a static recording.


----------



## Bee_Abney (Apr 5, 2022)

kgdrum said:


> That certainly explains a few things………….


It does, doesn't it, my friend?


----------



## kgdrum (Apr 5, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> It does, doesn't it, my friend?


As I always say: aim lower.


----------



## InsanitySamples (Aug 4, 2022)

leon chevalier said:


> Dear VI friends,
> 
> I very rarely start a topic but this time I don't understand why this new release do not make more noise !?
> 
> ...



Hi Leon,

Version 2 of Neo Woodwinds has just landed! This update sees the addition of Oboe & Cor Angalis! Growing the library by 50% alongside a bunch of new scripting capabilities... What's more, we have it on 50% sale to celebrate this new update... Check out the below trailer to have a listen at the library in action. You can also find a detailed 30 minute walkthrough of all that is new in this collection on our store!

www.insanitysamples.com


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## doctoremmet (Aug 4, 2022)

After some of the quick demos I did in april, I also made a little thingie with NEO Strings and Cello ONE, that has a liberal amount of NEO Woodwinds (v1 obviously). I was going for a bit of an eerie vibe I guess, hence the dissonant piano here and there. Anyway, here it is. I was “speed composing”, a concept I’d just picked up from listening to Jasper Blunk and Dan Keen, so I threw this together rather quickly. 

Let me reiterate that I quite love this woodwind package AND the way the developer keeps raising the bar / updating and improving these instruments. I received a free sampled oboe and cor anglais today. How cool is that?!









Insanity Samples NEO Solo Strings + NEO Woodwinds + Cello ONE - Speedcomposing


This is just me speedcomposing using Insanity Samples instruments. Instruments used: 1. 8Dio 1985 Passionate Piano - Yamaha C5 Una Corda samples 2. Insanity Samples Viola, Cello and Violin from NEO S




on.soundcloud.com


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## b_elliott (Aug 4, 2022)

Just got onto this thread. WWs are something I am fond of, especially after hearing Le Concert Impromtu perform a series of Frank Zappa works. (Sample of what I would like to emulate WW-wise.)



Note: Though Le Concert Imp. are live winds, I got the sense Neo might work for this kind of stuff. Not sure whether FZ's fast licks (_Uncle Meat_ for example) would execute though. Then again, there is that no oboe matter. lol

ps. Hey @doctoremmet, enjoyed each of your Neo demos = educative. May I ask a completely off-topic Q: Do you use Ableton's non-linear mode (loop mode) at all for composing? 

Years ago Ableton 10 Lite came with my M-audio kbd, but my wits were a fail on grokking the layout.  So, still on Reaper. 
This is the mode I am referring to:


----------



## doctoremmet (Aug 4, 2022)

b_elliott said:


> Then again, there is that no oboe matter. lol


Well, you may have missed the news but the reason this thread got revived is that today the package got expanded with that oboe and an english horn as well. So that hurdle is gone 



b_elliott said:


> Do you use Ableton's non-linear mode (loop mode) at all for composing?


Hardly ever. But I have used it extensively in the past back when I was mostly making electronic music. It works great once you get the hang of it. It is at the core of the Ableton DNA really. The v11 update brought the comping feature and that is just brilliant for songwriting.


----------



## dyross (Aug 4, 2022)

InsanitySamples said:


> Hi Leon,
> 
> Version 2 of Neo Woodwinds has just landed! This update sees the addition of Oboe & Cor Angalis! Growing the library by 50% alongside a bunch of new scripting capabilities... What's more, we have it on 50% sale to celebrate this new update... Check out the below trailer to have a listen at the library in action. You can also find a detailed 30 minute walkthrough of all that is new in this collection on our store!
> 
> www.insanitysamples.com




Wow, this is quite a nice price for all these instruments. Kudos to the developer for being so dedicated to your customers.

How are folks finding the expressiveness / consistency of articulations?


----------



## Karmand (Aug 4, 2022)

Coupon still works... looks like I'm interested now with the Oboe and English Horn - hmmm....


----------



## Flyo (Aug 4, 2022)

Karmand said:


> Coupon still works... looks like I'm interested now with the Oboe and English Horn - hmmm....


Coupon ?


----------



## doctoremmet (Aug 4, 2022)

Flyo said:


> Coupon ?


CLAIM10 - stacks


----------



## Flyo (Aug 4, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> CLAIM10 - stacks


There are more to stack?


----------



## doctoremmet (Aug 4, 2022)

Flyo said:


> There are more to stack?


It stacks with the current sale discount


----------



## Flyo (Aug 4, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> It stacks with the current sale discount


I really like WW. I grab Oboe from OT recently. How could this compare with the Soloist form OT with Modern Woodwings ?


----------



## doctoremmet (Aug 4, 2022)

Flyo said:


> I really like WW. I grab Oboe from OT recently. How could this compare with the Soloist form OT with Modern Woodwings ?


I can’t tell you because I do not have any of the Orchestral Tools Soloists. I am pretty sure the Insanity Samples winds have more “extended articulations” though. 

For the price these represent a really good value in my opinion. If you go through this thread you’ll notice I have noted some cons, such as certain short articulations that do not stop playing when one releases a note (marcato and staccato) which is frankly rather annoying (and renders them almost unusable for me) and an overall slightly “boxy” sound character here and there (in the recordings, more or less regardless of mic choices). 

The tone and the character of the instruments is rather unique. I wouldn’t recommend them for faster passages, there is a certain baked in “progressively increasing” vibrato / dynamic swell that is really beautiful but also ‘static’ in the sense that it is always going to be there in the vib legato patches. But those are all things I can totally live with. At the end of the day, the piccolo patch and the clarinet (that is REALLY dark and almost sounds like a bass clarinet to my ears) alone make this library worth the asking price. Insanity Samples have managed to create something in a rather crowded space, that caught my attention immediately. And I have quite a lot of woodwinds. So that must be saying something. If I want moody, I take these instruments for a ride. Saturday morning jolly cartoon music they fit not.

Then again, as I have learned, it is just an opinion from me - a rather uninspired (and even worse: uninspiring) no-name hobby musician with no track record whatsoever. So YMMV.


----------



## doctoremmet (Aug 4, 2022)

Flyo said:


> I really like WW. I grab Oboe from OT recently. How could this compare with the Soloist form OT with Modern Woodwings ?


Check out @Rudianos brilliant oboe thread here:





__





Ultimate Solo Oboe Comparison Thread


Hi! I hope it's okay to bump this amazing thread. It's really a treasure to find your ideal oboe, thank you! I don't know which one I prefer, but I don't understand something. @Rob I really love your mockup with the SWAM oboe, and also the Miroslav one. But I don't understand, before I listened...




vi-control.net





Posts #143 and #144

I do love the sound of this new oboe in the Brahms excerpt. It has a character that I have not come across in any other sampled woodwind library. Is this indeed considered “the English sound”? @Rudianos


----------



## Rudianos (Aug 4, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Check out @Rudianos brilliant oboe thread here:
> 
> I do love the sound of this new oboe in the Brahms excerpt. It has a character that I have not come across in any other sampled woodwind library. Is this indeed considered “the English sound” @Rudianos


Yeah totally agree! Very nice in the Brahms. They put a nice shimmery vibrato in the staccato and I am very pleased with the marcato... With the right placement it could have a very charming effect.


----------



## jbuhler (Aug 4, 2022)

I dearly love Insanity Samples' Fiddle, especially the engine, and the way you can add legato to pretty much all articulations as well as the overlays of trills and ornaments. And Neo Woodwinds seem to offer much of the same functionality in terms of the engine. But in watching the walkthrough for the woodwinds, I was put off a bit by the basic sound and am wondering if that is primarily the onboard reverb or if anyone else has issues with the room. I'm not hearing these issues so much in the examples that @doctoremmet posted. I also don't experience these issues with the Fiddle, which I presume was recorded in a similar fashion if not in the very same room. So I'm a bit perplexed.


----------



## doctoremmet (Aug 4, 2022)

James, I kind of get what you’re saying. I guess this is what I refer to as “boxy”. There seem to be some resonant harmonics in the recordings that cause this. What I’ve done when recording the stupid little quote / unquote “demos”, is turn off the reverb and apply some of my own. 

I don’t know whether you think it is also present in the strings? I did this video earlier (warning: it is really tedious and totally uninteresting in any musical sense) to kind of document the differences between the Insanity Samples out-of-the-box sound, versus how the dry samples sound and when one applies an external reverb. Maybe watch a bit of this and see if you experience the same thing here?



I noticed the developer likes to put on some delay on some patches too (switched on by default), which I immediately turn off. Maybe you’re hearing some of that?


----------



## jbuhler (Aug 4, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> James, I kind of get what you’re saying. I guess this is what I refer to as “boxy”. There seem to be some resonant harmonics in the recordings that cause this. What I’ve done when recording the stupid little quote / unquote “demos”, is turn off the reverb and apply some of my own.
> 
> I don’t know whether you think it is also present in the strings? I did this video earlier (warning: it is really tedious and totally uninteresting in any musical sense) to kind of document the differences between the Insanity Samples out-of-the-box sound, versus how the dry samples sound and when one applies an external reverb. Maybe watch a bit of this and see if you experience the same thing here?
> 
> ...



Yes, this is very helpful and I am hearing in the default settings of Neo Strings some of the unappealing character that I'm hearing in the woodwind walkthrough. And I do find that your reworkings greatly diminish that character. So I'm hopeful it is indeed primarily an issue of the reverb (and perhaps delay).


----------



## Rudianos (Aug 4, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> Yes, this is very helpful and I am hearing in the default settings of Neo Strings some of the unappealing character that I'm hearing in the woodwind walkthrough. And I do find that your reworkings greatly diminish that character. So I'm hopeful it is indeed primarily an issue of the reverb (and perhaps delay).


here is staccato oboe ... 3 default everything ... then with verb off 3 default ... 3 mid only ... 3 overhead ... 3 hall ... 

View attachment Neo Oboe.mp3


----------



## jbuhler (Aug 4, 2022)

Rudianos said:


> here is staccato oboe ... 3 default everything ... then with verb off 3 default ... 3 mid only ... 3 overhead ... 3 hall ...
> 
> View attachment Neo Oboe.mp3


Also most helpful! Thank you!


----------



## doctoremmet (Aug 4, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> So I'm hopeful it is indeed primarily an issue of the reverb (and perhaps delay).


It mostly is. And it can be remedied. At least to (for me) satisfying levels. A certain slightly annoying resonant character does remain though, which maybe can be mitigated with some additional dynamiq eq’ing or saturation. I plan to experiment more.

In that NEO Strings wet / dry comparison there’s the final bit, that starts at 15:22, where you can clearly see (and hear) that the default legato violin patch has the built-in Kontakt Replika delay turned on.


----------



## Karmand (Aug 4, 2022)

Flyo said:


> I really like WW. I grab Oboe from OT recently. How could this compare with the Soloist form OT with Modern Woodwings ?


Yes, I purchased the OT Oboe thinking hey finally I have a solo - well, it's nice. I'm writing a piece with it...but as noted above not as many articulations - I will purchase this set on sale because they are expressive - I know the recording is a close and not a 'match' for other libs but I think the expression and solo appeal is cool - center it, bring in a smooth reverb and we should be good to go. I'm writing a challenge for myself called "Peace" - I've never heard an Oboe sound peaceful - usually shrill (OT is shrill bit) so that's the exploring Oboe's story for me. I picked up VSL Oboe d'amore too - not so shrill. I like it too.


----------



## Rudianos (Aug 4, 2022)

Karmand said:


> Yes, I purchased the OT Oboe thinking hey finally I have a solo - well, it's nice. I'm writing a piece with it...but as noted above not as many articulations - I will purchase this set on sale because they are expressive - I know the recording is a close and not a 'match' for other libs but I think the expression and solo appeal is cool - center it, bring in a smooth reverb and we should be good to go. I'm writing a challenge for myself called "Peace" - I've never heard an Oboe sound peaceful - usually shrill (OT is shrill bit) so that's the exploring Oboe's story for me. I picked up VSL Oboe d'amore too - not so shrill. I like it too.


Yeah. I have sent messages to all Sample Empires to sample these people... Gordon Hunt (English), Alex Klein (American), Peter Cooper (American), Tom Boyd (Jurassic Park etc) ... oboe need not sound awful or shrill. Give them the 40 GB + treatment too please  Way to many players sound rough. Even in pro orchestra's... @InsanitySamples @Cinesamples @OrchestralTools @Ben Lets get this moving please, life is too short.


----------



## Flyo (Aug 4, 2022)

Based on some of the articulation info, the vibrato are recorded and not controllable? witch seems to be recorded with different intensity on every instrument?


----------



## Rudianos (Aug 4, 2022)

Flyo said:


> Based on some of the articulation info, the vibrato are recorded and not controllable? witch seems to be recorded with different intensity on every instrument?


Yes not controllable. Baked in so to speak


----------



## Flyo (Aug 4, 2022)

Rudianos said:


> Yes not controllable. Baked in so to speak


Yess and every instrument have a different intensity vibrato? Example Poco Via, Live Vib...


----------



## doctoremmet (Aug 4, 2022)

Flyo said:


> Based on some of the articulation info, the vibrato are recorded and not controllable? witch seems to be recorded with different intensity on every instrument?


Correct. This is why we need more than one woodwind library. Because in all honesty, I have never encountered a sample where controllable vibrato worked, as in: sounded good. It implies either another layer of crossfading (with all phasing issues and bumpiness and -frankly- by definition also ‘non-performed-ness’) OR (oh horror!) an LFO (looking at you Chris Hein). Both kind of suck most of the time.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 4, 2022)

Flyo said:


> Yess and every instrument have a different intensity vibrato? Example Poco Via, Live Vib...


Depending on the player they recorded, and depending on what typically fits the instrument played, you’re going to get various vibrato speeds and styles - yes.

They mix rather nicely however I think, when creating faux wind ensembles with the samples - vibrato-wise. So the library kind of “works” in that regard. Given the vibrato style that was chosen. As mentioned, the patches all have a distinct “performed” character. There is no escaping that character.


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## jbuhler (Aug 4, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Correct. This is why we need more than one woodwind library. Because in all honesty, I have never encountered a sample where controllable vibrato worked, as in: sounded good. It implies either another layer of crossfading (with all phasing issues and bumpiness and -frankly- by definition also ‘non-performed-ness’) OR (oh horror!) an LFO (looking at you Chris Hein). Both kind of suck most of the time.


controllable vibrato works a little bit on strings (when you get lucky) but I don't think I've ever heard a solo woodwind where it sounded good. It's baked in or nothing. I find solo woodwinds are also far more sensitive to crossing dynamic layers. Maybe only the solo voice is more sensitive to dynamic layer crossfades.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 4, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> controllable vibrato works a little bit on strings (when you get lucky) but I don't think I've ever heard a solo woodwind where it sounded good. It's baked in or nothing. I find solo woodwinds are also far more sensitive to crossing dynamic layers. Maybe only the solo voice is more sensitive to dynamic layer crossfades.


Okay. I'll make ONE exception.


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## Rudianos (Aug 4, 2022)

Flyo said:


> Yess and every instrument have a different intensity vibrato? Example Poco Via, Live Vib...


here is the vibrato patch ... in the longs naturally ... this is what you get ... there is a shimmer in the shorts too ... all instruments then tutti

View attachment Neo Vibratos.mp3


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## doctoremmet (Aug 4, 2022)

Rudianos said:


> here is the vibrato patch ... in the longs naturally ... this is what you get ... there is a shipper in the shorts too ... all instruments then tutti
> 
> View attachment Neo Vibratos.mp3


Yes, GREAT clip. I really love the expressiveness of this vibrato.


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## Rudianos (Aug 4, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Yes, GREAT clip. I really love the expressiveness of this vibrato.


it really gives you the sense that these are real humans


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## doctoremmet (Aug 4, 2022)

Rudianos said:


> it really gives you the sense that these are real humans


Absolutely. And they really blend well together as an ensemble.


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## jbuhler (Aug 4, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Okay. I'll make ONE exception.


These have gotten much better, and I imagine something like this (more or less modeled) is the future especially for winds with dynamic/timbral range and vibrato and such but I still find the tone uneven. (I don't own it yet so I'm going by impressions of the various demos users have dropped.)

I also just opened up Insanity Samples' Fiddle 2 and I don't find the boxy sound quality out of the box on that. So go figure.


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## Karmand (Aug 4, 2022)

@doctoremmet Love the clips. I'm digging your comments on this stuff - similar thinking. I'm a composer who is doing music for music's sake - not for Vi-C's "legato-vibrato-mixer police" -- of which I love ALL peoples comments on VI (not a smack) and so thanks to you for many engaging hours of reading. When you are in Nashville next hit me up.


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## Flyo (Aug 4, 2022)

I have Hollywood Orchestra (pre Opus till they down price tag for upgrading or offer on retailers to get some further discount ) Then BBC Pro, and 8Dio Intimate WW, also the OT Oboe. Im in love for Woodwinds even more than Strings some times! This clip shows exactly what I need to hear from Modern WW V.2! but still on the fence really. The OT Soloists sounds good (except the portato arts, so far...). I know the BBC Pro gives me a very malleable control wise space, but head to head with the closest dryer sound of OT Soloists, still sound different of course. And then this at sale price! decisions...


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## doctoremmet (Aug 4, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> These have gotten much better, and I imagine something like this (more or less modeled) is the future especially for winds with dynamic/timbral range and vibrato and such but I still find the tone uneven. (I don't own it yet so I'm going by impressions of the various demos users have dropped.)
> 
> I also just opened up Insanity Samples' Fiddle 2 and I don't find the boxy sound quality out of the box on that. So go figure.


Yes, and I am AMAZED what actually talented musicians, such as @Ricgus3 (a sax player) are able to get out of Infinite Woodwinds these days, using wind controllers. Very expressive and stunningly beautiful musical performances. So each approach comes with drawbacks and advantages for sure. With these samples we are talking about here, we still rely on the musicality of the recorded players as it were, whereas “in the right hands” an instrument like Aaron Ventures’ begs for the performer to “blow life into it”. Does that make sense?


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## Rudianos (Aug 4, 2022)

Touch of Holst Neptune

View attachment Neo Neptune 2.mp3


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## Flyo (Aug 4, 2022)

Also 


Rudianos said:


> Touch of Holst Neptune
> 
> View attachment Neo Neptune 2.mp3


That was WW V.2 right? Ooh this sounds good!


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## Rudianos (Aug 4, 2022)

Flyo said:


> Also
> 
> That was WW V.2 right? Ooh this sounds good!


That's right.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 4, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> I also just opened up Insanity Samples' Fiddle 2 and I don't find the boxy sound quality out of the box on that. So go figure.


I am so tempted right now to add this to my Insanity Samples set. I’ve heard you talk about it positively before and I currently have no virtual instrument that can fiddle. I’ve put it on “the list”. Do you happen to have some contextual recordings of it, that you would share? Have you used it for your own compositions, or in your capacity as professor?


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## Ricgus3 (Aug 4, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Yes, and I am AMAZED what actually talented musicians, such as @Ricgus3 (a sax player) are able to get out of Infinite Woodwinds these days, using wind controllers. Very expressive and stunningly beautiful musical performances. So each approach comes with drawbacks and advantages for sure. With these samples we are talking about here, we still rely on the musicality of the recorded players as it were, whereas “in the right hands” an instrument like Aaron Ventures’ begs for the performer to “blow life into it”. Does that make sense?


Thank you for the beautiful mention! <3. 

Off topic: Do you find the flute 2 to be better than flute 1, on infinite? 
Currently using the Woodwinds in the Spitfire Comeptiion!  Playing the woodwinds live with the EWI .
I have also finished a track for a indie game where I have written the theme music play a trombone solo with the EWI! Will post in Infinite Thread soon


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## doctoremmet (Aug 4, 2022)

Ricgus3 said:


> Do you find the flute 2 to be better than flute 1, on infinite?


Off-topic: I gravitate towards it for reasons unbeknownst to me, yes  [looking forward to hear your latest work]


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## Flyo (Aug 4, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> I am so tempted right now to add this to my Insanity Samples set. I’ve heard you talk about it positively before and I currently have no virtual instrument that can fiddle. I’ve put it on “the list”. Do you happen to have some contextual recordings of it, that you would share? Have you used it for your own compositions, or in your capacity as professor?


The Fiddle offers some unique scripting on, that anybody seems to offer on any. Wish they expand this approach on more instruments. Some uniqueness reminds me Acoustic Sample V Horns (now at sale or intro price again!) then Straight ahead samples brings Atomic Band, but still to expensive. (Another talk for another thread I think) but I need to highlight those to


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## doctoremmet (Aug 4, 2022)

Flyo said:


> The Fiddle offers some unique scripting on, that anybody seems to offer on any. Wish they expand this approach on more instruments. Some uniqueness reminds me Acoustic Sample V Horns (now at sale or intro price again!) then Straight ahead samples brings Atomic Band, but still to expensive. (Another talk for another thread I think) but I need to highlight those to


Funny you should mention VHorns, because I was this close to a purchase earlier this week. Very inspiring instruments indeed. (But I chose to spring for Hammers this summer sale season, and the remainder of my hobby budget is frozen for Pacific).


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## InsanitySamples (Aug 4, 2022)

Flyo said:


> Based on some of the articulation info, the vibrato are recorded and not controllable? witch seems to be recorded with different intensity on every instrument?


Indeed, well spotted! Allow me to bore you with the rationale if it's of interest to yourself and others:

First and foremost, our main pursuit with all our of libraries is to have little to no unnatural, computer generated expression added to our libraries in any form where possible and not part of a creative decision to do so, with everything about the performance coming from the players for the most part. We really do feel this fairly uncompromising approach really lends a hit of realism and 'live player in the room' vibes to our libraries. Whilst this may make the library slightly less flexible, it does, we hope, make it more human and natural sounding. Closer to a real-life scenario. Then with that said, the reason for the varying levels of vibrato from instrument to instrument, is also by the nature of each instrument in a live setting (again generally):

The least vibrato heavy performances are from the Clarinet, Oboe & Cor (though these 2 definitely lean more into their natural vibrato), because for classical players of these instruments, after long conversations with our performers when planning the library, vibrato is seen as something that is rarely used in most settings, without extreme moderation and caution at least (this is apparent in most classical repertoire. Take the Mozart Clarinet Concerto for example:  
but the same is true for the vast majority of classical works outside of later jazz inspired classical works, especially for clarinet). As a result, as a library leaning into the classical/neo-classical realm, a very subtle vibrato in these instruments adds a layer of authenticity and effortless stylization for the genre that fits very well when written into an ensemble.

If, however we were dealing with a jazz clarinetist, the vibrato would be very pronounced and strong (especially when thinking of trad / early New Orleans jazz for example).

Then instruments without a reed in the family, such as flute and piccolo, really lean into their vibrato as a key component to creating a resonant and lush tone. So we have captured that, again, to best reflect the genre and style we are shooting for. Bassoon too is an instrument that reacts very well to vibrato on longer sustained notes, so we have a slow brooding vibrato captured for our Bassoon here. Much like the opening to Rite of Spring perhaps.

All vibrato that is present was also performed in a progressive way much like a live player would do with a sustained note. This in turn gives us the opportunity to have non-vib sounds when playing fast, as the vibrato would simply not have developed in the samples yet. Again much like a live player, who wouldn't have time to generate vibrato on short notes during fast phrasing. But would look to develop their vibrato as they head into a more drawn out sustained phrase.

If you made it this far, you've passed the test! I hope that makes sense of some of the creative decisions behind the library, and gives a closer insight into how we go about dreaming up our output.

Thanks,

Billy - Insanity Samples


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## dyross (Aug 4, 2022)

@InsanitySamples it seems like there is a single dynamic layer for the expressive longs / legato patch. In this case, what does the Dynamic control do? Does it adjust the timbre a la Synchron player?

I assume Expression is just volume, right?

Also, to folks who have this (I guess @doctoremmet), how does it compare to the Fluffy woodwinds that are also on sale right now?


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## dyross (Aug 4, 2022)

One more question to @InsanitySamples - in the EULA, I don't see any mention of license transfers. What is your policy on license transfers?


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## doctoremmet (Aug 4, 2022)

dyross said:


> Also, to folks who have this (I guess @doctoremmet), how does it compare to the Fluffy woodwinds that are also on sale right now?


I’m sorry, I have a lot of woodwinds - but unfortunately do not have that one. I also do not really have any idea about how those instruments sound, so… I’d love to be of help, but I can’t. The Fluffy collection consists of four instruments, so that is an obvious difference.

I have Infinite Woodwinds, Synchronized WW, Synchron Woodwinds, Xsample, Chris Hein, BBCSO, HOPUS, Claire and a bunch of others, and if I had to characterize NEO Woodwinds I wouldn’t exactly rate them as the most playable of the bunch, but there is something unique in the way Billy has managed to capture a certain somewhat darker character, really expressive but not necessarily suited for uplifting soloing - if that makes any sense… I don’t know… maybe that’s just a totally personal perception of things. Anyhow… and I repeat myself I guess… I quite like how they sound. It’s a great flavour to have.


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## Karmand (Aug 4, 2022)

My Oboe that I'm going after:


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## jbuhler (Aug 4, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> I am so tempted right now to add this to my Insanity Samples set. I’ve heard you talk about it positively before and I currently have no virtual instrument that can fiddle. I’ve put it on “the list”. Do you happen to have some contextual recordings of it, that you would share? Have you used it for your own compositions, or in your capacity as professor?


Here, the Folk Fiddle 2 is playing the role of the second violin in a quartet (though it takes the lead role in much of the movement). 

View attachment Waiting for Omicron 1.3.mp3


Now that I listen to this again, I do hear a bit of the boxiness that I'm also hearing in the woodwinds and strings but it seems less prominent, and it doesn't bug me in the same way. This is part of my set of Pandemic Fragments and it's VI as compositional sketch, not meant to be anything like a polished finished recording and needs to be understood as such. That said, this movement is actually built around playing with the fall/extended portamento in The Fiddle 2. Curiously, so far I've only really used The Fiddle 2 for this kind of extended classical playing. 

Here it is featured floating above strings in an orchestral context. (This is mostly Berlin Strings.) And I'm making use of a few of the recorded ornaments.

View attachment Snow Noodle 1.2.mp3


My one wish is that it had a few more notes at the top of its range (it's supplemented near the end of the passage with the Berlin First Chair violin 1 because the part goes out of range).

It's not that i don't use a fiddle and so am only interested in what the instrument can do against what it was designed to do. It's just that I haven't been working on anything since i got the instrument that required fiddling. But here's a quick replacement using Fiddle 2 on the opening of an arrangement of Sumer is icumen in. I'm somewhat reluctant to share this, as the Fiddle 2 midi programming was done really quickly, based on midi written for a different violin, the fiddle isn't really dialed into the mix right, and the ornaments aren't placed as well as they might be, but mixing isn't my thing and this was all I could muster in the time I had available. Still, this is the kind of thing I bought the instrument to do, and I only discovered that it was a capable violin for my purposes after I got it.

View attachment Sumer is icumen in (Fiddle 2) Opening 1.0.mp3


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## doctoremmet (Aug 5, 2022)

Jim! That Pandemic Fragments piece is unbelievable. I LOVE it. Very very moving music, that went straight to my soul. ❤️

(Now on to the next pieces. I highly appreciate you sharing this work with us)


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## biomuse (Aug 5, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> Here, the Folk Fiddle 2 is playing the role of the second violin in a quartet (though it takes the lead role in much of the movement).
> 
> View attachment Waiting for Omicron 1.3.mp3
> 
> ...



Jim do you mind sharing the identity of the VIs in this absolutely stunning piece? Is this all Insanity Neo strings or am I hearing some Xsamples in here?
Wow.


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## jbuhler (Aug 5, 2022)

biomuse said:


> Jim do you mind sharing the identity of the VIs in this absolutely stunning piece? Is this all Insanity Neo strings or am I hearing some Xsamples in here?
> Wow.


No, I don't have any other Insanity instruments yet aside from the original Fiddle and Fiddle 2. The quartet is SF solo strings for the other three players: First desk violin as first Violin, and the viola and cello. The cello is moved to the left, seated next to the first violin, Insanity Fiddle 2 on the far right. I supplemented that basic arrangement with some SF Alt Solo Strings, which added some articulations (especially trem sul pont) not available in the solo strings. The opening makes use of one little bit of the string quartet patch in OT's Time Micro.


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## Karmand (Aug 5, 2022)

Three Oboes talked about and compared. NWW Oboe - the 1/2 Price OT Soloist Oboe and VSL's Oboe d'amore.
I can't choose yet. Y'all have a favorite?


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## Rudianos (Aug 5, 2022)

Karmand said:


> Three Oboes talked about and compared. NWW Oboe - the 1/2 Price OT Soloist Oboe and VSL's Oboe d'amore.
> I can't choose yet. Y'all have a favorite?


hmmm NWW has a nice haunting tone to it needs a bit more wide expressiveness ... OT Soloist is a bit abrasive though detailed (EQ?) expressive solo instrument ... Oboe d'Amore is lovely very different physics in that one apples and oranges. Strongest Legato in VSL


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## liquidlino (Aug 5, 2022)

Karmand said:


> Three Oboes talked about and compared. NWW Oboe - the 1/2 Price OT Soloist Oboe and VSL's Oboe d'amore.
> I can't choose yet. Y'all have a favorite?


They are all lovely. I'll start with that. So following is not criticisms, just what I'm hearing as the differences. NWW is more "synth" like, or hybrid like in its sound. Doesn't sound like a real instrument, but really beautiful nonetheless. OT sounds like an Oboe, quacks like an Oboe. Most realistic, but not necessarily the best fit for this piece. VSL d'amore. To me, my uneducated ears, it sounds more like a half breed of an oboe and a clarinet. Which actually does it favours - I don't really like oboe sound personally, so this is my pick of the three, as it sounds realistic, and fits the piece beautifully.


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## doctoremmet (Aug 9, 2022)




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