# For those struggling like me, to get a handle on the more complex tonal and non tonal passages found in our favourite film scores.



## ed buller (Mar 7, 2021)

I find Alan Belkin invaluable:



For me the last ten years have been an immersion in trying to come to grips with a hidden discipline. What makes John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith so different to modern sounding Film Music. I had a brief education in music and left school at 16 to roadie for steve hillage. Pretty much all I knew by then that was useful was how to operate a tape machine and a VCS3 !. Twenty years later I started studying with David Conte at the San Francisco Conservatory of Music. But only recently have I cracked open the hidden world of Pitch Set's and Octatonic Harmony . Thankfully now with OMNI and Chris Siddall Music we are getting some of these films scores. And the Internet is very helpful. Alan Belkin Particularly so!. This is a great video series and very detailed , full of great nuggets like " The more notes they less each one counts "

best

ed


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## marclawsonmusic (Mar 7, 2021)

Great video! Thanks for sharing.


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## DennyB (Mar 7, 2021)

Is there a good book on neo-riemannian theory, pitch classes, chromaticism, etc? I’ve been brushing up on my functional theory, but this sounds like an important area to learn. I’ve been reading various bits on the web and watching movies like those ^^ (thank you), but a good structured book can also be helpful, at least for my learning style.


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## ed buller (Mar 7, 2021)

It's vital I think:

persichetti - 20th century harmony
Ulehla - Contemporary Harmony
Susanni - Music and the Twentieth-Century
Lehman - Hollywood Harmony
Mckay - Creative Harmony
Cohn - Audacious Euphony


are great books

e


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## ed buller (Mar 7, 2021)

I've also bought 

Introduction to Post-Tonal Theory- Straus, Joseph N. This was at the suggestion of a friend who says it will help with my understanding of John Williams techniques. 

best

e


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## Stringtree (Mar 7, 2021)

My favorite passage from this video:

"Already in the 20th century, composers like Fauré were experimenting with chords that were more the result of voice leading than of root positions."

So a piece of music can unsubscribe to some extent from tonal harmony, but still offer to the listener intensely interesting development because of its internal logic. 

I subscribed. This is my favorite kind of harmony: idiolectic. 

It's awesome, Ed. This is the golden age. The whole library of the world is online, and Omni makes available a seriously industrial-strength bunch of scores, there's IMSLP, there are countless resources for development like our good members on YouTube, and nobody needs to be alone in this. 

Thanks for the post! I could sequence Mozart again, but that's not going to teach me a lot. Jupiter from Holst? More. Five Days and Five Nights from Shostakovich? A great deal. Doc Brown from Silvestri? A whole lot.


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## synergy543 (Mar 7, 2021)

First off, @ed buller - Thank you so much for posting these threads that are so full of interesting information on composition and orchestration. Much appreciated. I can't wait to buy Ed's book (your's!), on composition and orchestration techniques! (particularly your discussion on polytonal octatonic techniques would be most welcome!) In the meantime...

Leon Dallin - Twentieth Century Composition is also a very interesting book. Unfortunately, it seems somewhat in short supply.


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## ed buller (Mar 7, 2021)

synergy543 said:


> Leon Dallin - Twentieth Century Composition is also a very interesting book. Unfortunately, it seems somewhat in short supply.


Oh I forgot this !....excellent book. I took it out of the LA Central Library and bought a copy the next day!

also mentions must go to:

Miller - New Harmonic Devices
Hull - Modern Harmony. It's Explanation & Application

best

ed


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## YaniDee (Mar 7, 2021)

ed buller said:


> Hull - Modern Harmony. It's Explanation & Application


This book can be downloaded as a Pdf at archive.org...








Modern harmony, its explanation and application : Hull, A. Eaglefield (Arthur Eaglefield), 1876-1928 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive


The metadata below describe the original scanning. Follow the All Files: HTTP link in the View the book box to the left to find XML files that contain more...



archive.org


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## jbuhler (Mar 7, 2021)

DennyB said:


> Is there a good book on neo-riemannian theory, pitch classes, chromaticism, etc? I’ve been brushing up on my functional theory, but this sounds like an important area to learn. I’ve been reading various bits on the web and watching movies like those ^^ (thank you), but a good structured book can also be helpful, at least for my learning style.


I think the chapters on Neo-Riemannian theory from Hollywood Harmony are the best introduction to it. It’s what I use for teaching the basics of the theory.


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## DennyB (Mar 7, 2021)

Beautiful, thank you! I just started reading Hollywood harmony so I will just keep charging forward with that. And the Hull book above- thanks!


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## tonaliszt (Mar 8, 2021)

__





The Tonnetz – One Key, Many Representations






imaginary.github.io





This might be useful for those getting into NRT.


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## ed buller (Mar 8, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> For the other stuff you asked about, _Understanding Post-tonal Theory_ by Roig-Francoli would be helpful. And Chapter 3 provides a solid intro to Pitch Class Set Theory, which is a nice thing to have under your belt before going whole hog with the NRT.


How do you think this compares to the Straus Book ?

best

e


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## José Herring (Mar 8, 2021)

ed buller said:


> It's vital I think:
> 
> persichetti - 20th century harmony
> Ulehla - Contemporary Harmony
> ...


I especially love the persichetti. But, do you find that it's increasingly more difficult to get harmonically challenging music accepted? In the 90's that's all I wrote. Now, I find that even a triad is becoming too harmonically complex for current society to tolerate thus the over use of the "ostinato" between two notes.


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## ed buller (Mar 8, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> The Straus is the one you want if you're going whole hog PC Set Theory, but the Roig-Francoli, which has other stuff besides, provides a firm foundation in it.


I have the straus...and The Roig-Francoli seems painfully pricey......so nothing in it that's not in the straus ?...I am particularly keen in learning John williams and Jerry Goldsmith style applications. Not so much Neue Wiener Schule malarky !

I read a paper on Walton's 2nd symphony and it was all about Pitch set Use...that's a great sound to nail 

best

e


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## ed buller (Mar 8, 2021)

José Herring said:


> I especially love the persichetti. But, do you find that it's increasingly more difficult to get harmonically challenging music accepted? In the 90's that's all I wrote. Now, I find that even a triad is becoming too harmonically complex for current society to tolerate thus the over use of the "ostinato" between two notes.


it's a challenge certainly. But I'm thinking that soon enough people will get bored of the ostinato slow pad style...it's just everywhere and I figure if I can master something I love maybe it will earn me something.......meanwhile more hip hop !

e


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## JohnG (Mar 8, 2021)

I hate to barge in with some film music, but -- what about this book:



I have a copy and there's a lot of music included, already reduced (some fairly full score but much of it is presented on a handful of staves). I find scores and books much cheaper and faster than a class / teacher. Of course, that's if you like LOTR's score. There is a lot of dissonance there and it's a good reminder that you can write tons of dissonance if you give the audience what they want as well.

Besides, teachers sometimes -- not all of them -- try to mystify everything and shove their own predilections down one's throat. I've had some great ones and some who wanted me to write "just like [fill in the blank]"


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## jbuhler (Mar 8, 2021)

ed buller said:


> Neue Wiener Schule malarky


But this malarky, especially the pre-serial atonal music, is a key to unlocking so much other stuff, especially if you want to drift on the boundary between tonality and atonality.


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## ed buller (Mar 8, 2021)

pre-serial yes...Not that other muck

best

e


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## ed buller (Mar 8, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> There's nothing in the Roig-Francoli regarding _set theory_ that Straus doesn't cover.


Thank you...can't afford all these books!

best

e


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## ed buller (Mar 8, 2021)

JohnG said:


> I hate to barge in with some film music, but -- what about this book:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's a wonderful Book. Beautifully made. I treasure my copy but TBH don't pick it up much to study. Not a big fan of the score. It's got some marvelous bit's but it's not in the same league as Star Wars in terms of quality of themes or depth of them. I just find it a tad ordinary truthfully.

best

ed


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## YaniDee (Mar 8, 2021)

JohnG said:


> I hate to barge in with some film music, but -- what about this book:


Slightly off topic but..I couldn't see the link and didn't know which book you were referring to using Firefox..I opened the same page on Chrome and the link was visible...hope this isn't a trend, not a big Chrome fan.


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 8, 2021)

For some reason the Amazon links are not working for me I just see an Amazon icon and no info or link. John what book were you referring to above?


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 9, 2021)

I don't see the amazon links in any of the browsers I have tried, including Safari, Firefox and Chrome. Just an amazon icon and no info. how are you guys seeing the full link info?


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## ed buller (Mar 9, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> I don't see the amazon links in any of the browsers I have tried, including Safari, Firefox and Chrome. Just an amazon icon and no info. how are you guys seeing the full link info?


turn off Addblocker

e


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## germancomponist (Mar 9, 2021)

ed buller said:


> I find Alan Belkin invaluable:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's all very interesting, Ed. It reminds me of a time when I experimented with harmonies. My partner is a professor at a music college and she has a very good command of harmony. At that time she gave me a task: to accompany a film scene with only chords. She said, if you try this, you will see the power of the chords. I did and learned a lot from it. Hans Zimmer once said the same thing to me: “Experiment, experiment and experiment.” It's great that you are active and researching here. You can only win! Your video is well done!

One more side note: if someone starts experimenting with chords, then maybe he or she should start on a Hammond organ. This organ still sounds good even if you put your whole arm on the keyboard.


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## JohnG (Mar 9, 2021)

YaniDee said:


> Slightly off topic but..I couldn't see the link and didn't know which book you were referring to using Firefox..I opened the same page on Chrome and the link was visible...hope this isn't a trend, not a big Chrome fan.


The Music of The Lord of the Rings Films: A Comprehensive Account of Howard Shore's Scores (Book and Rarities CD)Hardcover – October 5, 2010​






​


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## germancomponist (Mar 9, 2021)

JohnG said:


> The Music of The Lord of the Rings Films: A Comprehensive Account of Howard Shore's Scores (Book and Rarities CD)Hardcover – October 5, 2010​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


John, if I am allowed to ask you: What percent have you learned from books and what percent have you learned from experimenting?


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