# Handheld recorders - Looking at the new Zoom H6



## guydoingmusic (Jul 23, 2013)

Anyone bought the Zoom H6 yet? 

Just curious to find out any thoughts in general on handheld recorders. I have never owned one. But, I did use one this past weekend and loved it. I had the Zoom H4n, which I was very surprised with how well it did. 

But didn't want to just pull the trigger and buy something without getting feedback about what other options are out there.


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## Dan Mott (Jul 23, 2013)

Zoom H4N is really great. Quality is awesome. If you want to go a step further in quality then look at the PCM Recorder PCM-D50 from Sony, though it has less features.

Haven't heard the H6


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## Chriss Ons (Jul 23, 2013)

I wouldn't exactly call it "awesome quality" - not if you're just using it with the built-in mics / preamps. The Zoom H4n is very convenient for location recording, but when used just by itself as a handheld/portable, the results are _average_, at best. 
With a half-decent pair of external mics and preamps you can make some really good recordings with it (I often use my H4n with a pair of Rode NT1A's and Focusrite ISA One's), and the ability to record the 2 line-ins + internal mics onto 4 tracks is very convenient. 
I don't mean to knock the Zoom - it offers a lot _for what it costs_, but I kind of regret not spending an extra $200-300 or so on one of the better handhelds by Sony, Tascam, Roland, or Marantz, just to name a few.
Then again, it really depends on how you use it and what you'll be using the recordings for, so YMMV...


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## Dan Mott (Jul 24, 2013)

Well sorry you feel that way about it.

I think the built in mics sound superb. Close to the sony one which has probably the best sound in an external recorder.

What weren't you happy with. What did you try and record that didn't give you good results?


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## Chriss Ons (Jul 24, 2013)

Dan-Jay @ Wed 24 Jul said:


> What weren't you happy with? What did you try and record that didn't give you good results?


When using just the built-in mics alone, the level of self-noise is quite high - most noticeable with solo piano and cello recordings. 
Connecting the Rode mics directly to the unit's preamps yields far better results, and when using the Focusrite pre's, it's night and day - not just in terms of sound quality - which I realize is highly subjective - but in terms of S/N ratio, more than anything. 
I'll sometimes use the internal mics to record extra room ambience, though - works well at the 120° setting - but that's it, really.


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## guydoingmusic (Jul 24, 2013)

well supposedly the H6 has a better s/n ratio. And as far as "self-noise" I didn't find it all that bad. I only used the built-in mics. I also have some very high end preamps to run through if needed. And of course, if I hooked up 2 U87's through 2 channels of Neve 1073's I would get better results than the built-in mics. This is specifically for capturing things on the go. Finding a sound for later, sampling it on the spot... that sort of thing.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Jul 24, 2013)

> ...Just curious to find out any thoughts in general on handheld recorders.


*H*and*H*eld *R*ecorders are what they are: Handheld Recorders.
1. They often cost the price of one good microphone - even if they are not low cost types. So the quality of the microphones is often the weakest part of HHRs. 
In other words: The recording circuit is not the problem, quite the reverse. 
2. They often offer only one classical stereo-microphone method: XY 
All others are only "simulated" ORTF, AB, EBS...
H6 offers also M/S - bravo
3. We normally don't mount HHRs on a hight of 4m for recording signals because we want to be very mobile with HHRs. So as soon you are willing to use separate amplifiers, mics, cables etc. you also can use an even better interface together with a laptop.

So we should accept that results with HHRs are not as good as the could be but they have qualities which larger setups can't manage that easy:
- recordings in nature
- discrete recordings
- easy recordings
...and a lot more - nevertheless, all this in a very attractive sound quality.

Knowing the benefits of HHRs: I'm not sure whether we really use 6 tracks or not. This "smells" about more mics - good bye advantages HHR.

Beat


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## Matt Baron (Jul 24, 2013)

I use a PCM D50 and really like it.


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## guydoingmusic (Jul 25, 2013)

I'm really having a hard time deciding what to get. I know that want one. That's for sure. The thing I like about the h6 is the versatility with the interchangeable mics, however it's $400. And I can get the h4n on eBay for fairly cheap, $140'ish. 

I do need something portable like this, but at the same time I feel like it's part of the ever-growing black hole to throw my money into!


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## Beat Kaufmann (Jul 25, 2013)

2 Solutions for solving your problem:
*Solution 1 *
Make a table with the points you need: (example)
+48V for ext Mics
4 Channels min
large display
min. 10h recording time with bat.
no editing-possibilities
....

Compare H4 and H6 with the points you are using.

*Solution 2*
Never buy the cheapest (...er) product. If you do so you will buy the better one next year and an even better one two years later. In the end you spent more for all the cheaper circuits...

Beat


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## wst3 (Jul 25, 2013)

What Beat said, with the minor stipulation that sometimes you have to buy the cheaper one first to meet some specific requirement or budget. It happens, and even if you know that it's a bad idea you have to do it anyway.

I have a little Tascam DR-70 that I take with me everywhere I go. I use it to make 'casual' recordings, or to record IRs for acoustical design work, or to capture sounds for sound effects. It is suitable for all of these tasks.

When I am getting paid to make a recording of a live event I take microphones, preamplifiers, big, heavy, cumbersome microphone stands, my computer, and the DR-70. I use it as a backup to the computer. I have not yet needed the backup, but it makes me feel better.

I used to record to either a Fostex D-108 hard disk recorder or a Dat recorder, and I like leaving them home a lot!


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## Chriss Ons (Jul 25, 2013)

Beat Kaufmann @ Thu 25 Jul said:


> Make a table with the points you need: (example)
> +48V for ext Mics
> (...)



I agree, with this nuance: if it's just meant to "capture things on the go" (as it turns out), I wouldn't even take phantom power -capability into the equation. Quality +48V isn't easy to achieve from a low voltage source such as a pair of AA batteries, and in the case of the H4n, phantom power _does_ add a significant amount of noise to the recording. Some testing I did when I just had my unit, clearly demonstrated this - which is why I mentioned the difference in S/N ratio between connecting condensers straight to the unit, or powering them via external mic pre's.


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## Steve Steele (Jul 25, 2013)

wst3 @ Thu Jul 25 said:


> I have a little Tascam DR-70 that I take with me everywhere I go. I use it to make 'casual' recordings, or to record IRs for acoustical design work



What do you use to create your impulse? Do you carry around a hand gun? Just kidding. Seriously though, do you have a starter pistol, you clap your hands or have a "clacker", or a portable sweep generator of some sort? I suppose a decent enough "jam box" with a CD recording or a sweep might do in a pinch.


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## Steve Steele (Jul 25, 2013)

I still have my Sony PCM D50 from the very first month they came out. I learned that clarilty and S/N goes a long way. In some early A/B testing I did with all of the other early gen HHRs, I thought I was disapointed with the low freq range but was impressed with the clarity and overall build and options. Turns out the low end I heard in some of the others was exaggerated mess takeing up space. 

There is plenty of low freq content (or at least good harmonics) that mastering brings out of the PCM-D50 nicely. 

It's not the most ergonomic and I wish I would have chosen the Sony model with the XLR inputs. But for an everyday HHR the D50 still holds up nicely. 

Is the H6 the M/S recorder or maybe the surround?


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## Hans Adamson (Jul 25, 2013)

I use a Zoom H4 for video audio in a simple hand-held setup and it is great. One man can record AVCHD video with decent stereo sound in a single portable package. I have friends that use it for recording sketches to songs, or, simple live-takes of songs, but my experience is that the sound in this application is more sibilant and thin than I would prefer, without much depth. I love it for the ease of use when filming video though.
/Hans


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## wst3 (Jul 26, 2013)

nightwatch @ Thu Jul 25 said:


> What do you use to create your impulse? Do you carry around a hand gun? Just kidding. Seriously though, do you have a starter pistol, you clap your hands or have a "clacker", or a portable sweep generator of some sort? I suppose a decent enough "jam box" with a CD recording or a sweep might do in a pinch.



Hmmm... in light of recent universe repair threads maybe I should consider the handgun???

I use handclaps, or a clicker in really small rooms. I also have several different sweeps stored as uncompressed wave files on my old iPod.

S/N ratio is not as critical for acoustical analysis as it would be for use in a convolution reverb... so I don't have to be terribly picky.


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## Steve Steele (Jul 26, 2013)

wst3 @ Fri Jul 26 said:


> nightwatch @ Thu Jul 25 said:
> 
> 
> > What do you use to create your impulse? Do you carry around a hand gun? Just kidding. Seriously though, do you have a starter pistol, you clap your hands or have a "clacker", or a portable sweep generator of some sort? I suppose a decent enough "jam box" with a CD recording or a sweep might do in a pinch.
> ...



Oh, you're doing room analysis? Ok. I was thinking you were capturing IRs of interesting spaces for convolution, which is something I'd like to do (as a hobby). 

If you don't mind a couple of questions about your setup...

I could use my Sony D50, my iPhone for playback, and a small powered monitor, perhaps a battery powered monitor. What do you use, or suppose would be the optimum size/brand portable monitor? I'd like to capture an IR of the Rothko Chappell (speaking of getting arrested). I bet a few people would be interested in that IR. I doubt there is one out there because of their weird rules but I'll check. It's just a few miles away from where I live. Astrodome would be cool too. Anyway...

If I'm going to carry my D50 then chances are I'll have a reason to be carrying a speaker and a couple of back packs. 

And any advice about hand claps, clicker/clackers or signal sweeps for capturing decent IRs? I don't know if larger or smaller rooms require the extra bass response that a sweep would provide. The high freqs would be useful I would think. 

I don't want to go way beyond the scope of the OP, and this info is elsewhere but if you could tell me what you use for a speaker, or have any advice, that would help. It's fairly interesting science, and a good test of a HHR's quality. So, not too off topic.

Thanks!


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