# Audio Interface Advice



## jbuhler (Jan 29, 2019)

I'm looking to upgrade my audio interface in my home studio because my current ones are each annoying in their own way (I recently went back to an old Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 because a second interface was driving me nuts with badly designed knobs and other form factor issues; but the Scarlett has bad latency (problems even at 1024) and seems responsible for wake from sleep issues with the computer). I would like a desktop rather than rack unit. I've been looking at the RME Babyface Pro and the Universal Audio Apollo, less for any audio improvements (though those would be welcome) than for the low latency drivers everyone praises them for. Are there others I should be looking at? (I would prefer not to go any more expensive than the Apollo Duo, and a cheaper solution would be even better.) 

The Babyface Pro would require a new set of cables to run to the monitors; it also has the headphone jack coming out the side that I don't especially like (I'd prefer the jack be in front) and only supports one set of monitors. The Apollo would require a way to attach a third screen, since my second thunderbolt2 port is currently being used to run the third screen (what are the solutions for the third screen if the audio interface needs one of the thunderbolt 2 ports other than some kind of thunderbolt 2 dock and running one of the external screens with HDMI rather than Display Port?). This is for a 27 in. retina 5K iMac (late 2015, 4Ghz, 64GB) running primarily Logic and Studio One. I have been through this thread: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/audio-interface-recommendations.67999.


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## sostenuto (Jan 29, 2019)

Starting to sort as well. Now using (2) Saffire Pro 14(s), but on Win10 Pro /Reaper; so no help.
RME is so popular, yet Focusrite has treated me well with US_telephone support.
Really want to try Clarett …. but would need to use their USB version (no Thunderbolt here).

Will watch with interest as you decide. 

(edit) Sweetwater _here in USA_ has Focusrite Clarett 8Pre 18x20 Thunderbolt Audio Interface on sale now for $980. 
Very tempting if new Thunderbolt MB added.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 29, 2019)

UR-22 does it for me. Err, looking now I see I graduated to "mk II".


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## TheKRock (Jan 29, 2019)

For what its worth I've been using a focusrite clarett 4pre for over 2 years now with Logic on my iMac (exact same model and set up as yours) and its been awesome - and I also second the quality of their support, they've been very good.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 29, 2019)

I highly recommend the Apogee Element 24. It integrates perfectly into Logic's channel strips, and has wonderful pre-amps.


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## jbuhler (Jan 29, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> I highly recommend the Apogee Element 24. It integrates perfectly into Logic's channel strips, and has wonderful pre-amps.


Yes, I looked at that and was intrigued. I wasn't clear how you controlled the volume on the headphones separate from the monitors, without getting the Control add-on. I presume it uses system audio controls for the unit itself. Can you fill me in on the details? 

Also, how would you get around the limitation of 2 thunderbolt2 ports in order to drive a third screen aside from resorting to a dock? (I have one thunderbolt dock already but it's not clear if I can drive two monitors with it.)


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 29, 2019)

I have one T-bolt port for a display, and one for the Apogee. My second display (in addition to the MacBook screen) is off the HDMI port of the MacBook. I was looking at the Cal-Digit Thunderbolt Station, but I think you can only have one thunderbolt and one HDMI display connected....but then you would have the iMac display plus two additional. That would free up the second T-bolt port on the iMac for the interface.

Regarding the headphone volume, it's controlled via a software mixer. I don't use it though, I have a Mackie Big Knob for the headphones....and also allows me to connect up to three sets of monitors.


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## PaulBrimstone (Jan 29, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> the Scarlett … seems responsible for wake from sleep issues with the computer.


I have the same annoying wake from sleep/restart issues with the Scarlett 2i4, and really need to upgrade. Watching this thread with interest...
I recall there was a post on VI-C ages ago explaining the Scarlett’s sleep issues, but I'm darned if I can find it — does anyone remember?


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## jbuhler (Jan 29, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> I have one T-bolt port for a display, and one for the Apogee. My second display (in addition to the MacBook screen) is off the HDMI port of the MacBook. I was looking at the Cal-Digit Thunderbolt Station, but I think you can only have one thunderbolt and one HDMI display connected....but then you would have the iMac display plus two additional. That would free up the second T-bolt port on the iMac for the interface.
> 
> Regarding the headphone volume, it's controlled via a software mixer. I don't use it though, I have a Mackie Big Knob for the headphones....and also allows me to connect up to three sets of monitors.


Thanks for this! I don't have an HDMI out on the iMac, but I do have two thunderbolt ports. One currently goes to a TB dock, which adds four USB3 ports and daisy chains to a display port monitor. The TB dock also has an HDMI out but it's not clear if it can support both display port and HDMI at the same time. The other TB port is currently being used for the third screen. Neither additional screen is 5K. I suppose the thing to do is test whether the dock can run both external screens, since if it can it opens the potential for a thunderbolt interface.


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## whiskers (Jan 29, 2019)

Here we go again


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## jbuhler (Jan 29, 2019)

whiskers said:


> Here we go again


Always a good time. Hopefully, I can get the other external screen to run off my dock and if it does that it won't impact the performance of the SSDs I also have connected to the dock.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Jan 29, 2019)

I went uad duo (quad) recently and could get some plugins from the sale.

Latency is good , as in low, and the main advantage of ‘outsourcing’ plugins from my iMac’s cpu has been a reason to go uad. Sound quality is excelent and plugins high quality.

I wasnt sure at first, but thunderbolt is daisy chainable and that also includes an audio interface. So regarding your tb ports: if your tb ssd unit has an extra port ( my blackmagic has) you can put your audio interface there and it should all work well


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## jbuhler (Jan 30, 2019)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> I wasnt sure at first, but thunderbolt is daisy chainable and that also includes an audio interface. So regarding your tb ports: if your tb ssd unit has an extra port ( my blackmagic has) you can put your audio interface there and it should all work well


Thanks for your report on the Apollo. Yes, I know you can daisy chain thunderbolt devices. The issue is that none of the audio interfaces have a thunderbolt-through port and the screens do not either. So I still have three devices that need to be at the end of the daisy chain and only two thunderbolt ports.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 30, 2019)

Although I have not tried it, there are adaptors you can get for a monitor to run off a USB 3 port.


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## jbuhler (Jan 30, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Although I have not tried it, there are adaptors you can get for a monitor to run off a USB 3 port.


Thanks, I’ll look into a USB monitor solution if the dock can’t support both DisplayPort and HDMI at the same time.


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## Damarus (Jan 30, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> Thanks, I’ll look into a USB monitor solution if the dock can’t support both DisplayPort and HDMI at the same time.



I would avoid USB monitors as much as possible, imo.

A single Thunderbolt 2 port should support 2 QHD monitors (1440p). So if you have 2 additional 1920x1080 monitors, it should drive them just fine off one port.


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## jbuhler (Jan 30, 2019)

Damarus said:


> I would avoid USB monitors as much as possible, imo.
> 
> A single Thunderbolt 2 port should support 2 QHD monitors (1440p). So if you have 2 additional 1920x1080 monitors, it should drive them just fine off one port.


Thanks! My two externals are 1920x1200 and 2560x1440. So I guess that means they should be supported. I need to dig out an HDMI cable and try it.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 30, 2019)

Damarus said:


> I would avoid USB monitors as much as possible, imo.



What is the issue? Too laggy or something?


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## Piano Pete (Jan 30, 2019)

I have had great results with RME's product line, Motu, and properly setup Dante infrastructures.


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## Damarus (Jan 30, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> What is the issue? Too laggy or something?



Yeah USB is not really meant for that. It might work OK, but will most likely run into issues with the display turning on and off, not turning on during boot or just not working at all. The few that I experienced needed regular attention.


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## whiskers (Jan 30, 2019)

Damarus said:


> I would avoid USB monitors as much as possible, imo.
> 
> A single Thunderbolt 2 port should support 2 QHD monitors (1440p). So if you have 2 additional 1920x1080 monitors, it should drive them just fine off one port.



Yep.

Or you can buy adapters if you're short on ports . Not sure how Mac is, but you can get a 2 DP to mini DP for like 50$ for PC.


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## whiskers (Jan 30, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> Thanks, I’ll look into a USB monitor solution if the dock can’t support both DisplayPort and HDMI at the same time.


not sure what kind of dock you have, but I would be legitimately surprised if it could not support both


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## jbuhler (Jan 30, 2019)

whiskers said:


> Yep.
> 
> Or you can buy adapters if you're short on ports . Not sure how Mac is, but you can get a 2 DP to mini DP for like 50$ for PC.


Problem is the only outs are two thunderbolt ports and 4 USB3. I tried my dock and even though it has both HDMI and DisplayPort outs, it will only run one monitor. There do seem to be some splitters for turning DisplayPort into two HDMI outs, but the comments I looked at say they don't work on Macs. There are some splitters for USB-C/thunderbolt3 but none that I could find for thunderbolt2 that provided two HDMI outs.


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## jbuhler (Jan 30, 2019)

whiskers said:


> not sure what kind of dock you have, but I would be legitimately surprised if it could not support both


I have this dock: 


Some report getting multiple displays to work off it, but others say not.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 30, 2019)

This one allows MDMI and Thunderbolt Display at the same time, but not two Thunderbolt displays at once.

https://www.caldigit.com/thunderbolt-2-dock-TS2/


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## jbuhler (Jan 30, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> This one allows MDMI and Thunderbolt Display at the same time, but not two Thunderbolt displays at once.
> 
> https://www.caldigit.com/thunderbolt-2-dock-TS2/


That unit doesn't seem to be available at either their store or Amazon. It's also not clear if it will support two monitors itself unless one of them is real thunderbolt (as opposed to DisplayPort). (My monitors appear to both be DisplayPort/HDMI/DVI. The Dell U2715H has what appears to be a thunderbolt in, but it seems to be only a mini DisplayPort and running a thunderbolt cable from the dock to the Dell doesn't produce a signal.) But the text to the TS2 Dock does suggest that adding another thunderbolt dock to the chain might work because it seems that each thunderbolt device along the chain can support an HDMI/DisplayPort out. It would be nice to know if this is indeed the case, as it seems peculiar, and docks aren't especially cheap. 

Another option would be to run a second dock along the interface thunderbolt chain and run HDMI off of that dock. Actually, I think I might not even need a second dock if I put the audio interface at the end of the chain with the dock, ran HDMI out of the dock to one monitor, and the second monitor could then connect directly to the computer with the second thunderbolt. The only question is whether there is enough bandwidth along the thunderbolt chain for sample library SSDs attached to the dock, the monitor, and the interface not to cause issues for the interface. Anyone have issues putting a thunderbolt audio interface at the end of a daisy chain?


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## Damarus (Jan 31, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> That unit doesn't seem to be available at either their store or Amazon. It's also not clear if it will support two monitors itself unless one of them is real thunderbolt (as opposed to DisplayPort). (My monitors appear to both be DisplayPort/HDMI/DVI. The Dell U2715H has what appears to be a thunderbolt in, but it seems to be only a mini DisplayPort and running a thunderbolt cable from the dock to the Dell doesn't produce a signal.) But the text to the TS2 Dock does suggest that adding another thunderbolt dock to the chain might work because it seems that each thunderbolt device along the chain can support an HDMI/DisplayPort out. It would be nice to know if this is indeed the case, as it seems peculiar, and docks aren't especially cheap.
> 
> Another option would be to run a second dock along the interface thunderbolt chain and run HDMI off of that dock. Actually, I think I might not even need a second dock if I put the audio interface at the end of the chain with the dock, ran HDMI out of the dock to one monitor, and the second monitor could then connect directly to the computer with the second thunderbolt. The only question is whether there is enough bandwidth along the thunderbolt chain for sample library SSDs attached to the dock, the monitor, and the interface not to cause issues for the interface. Anyone have issues putting a thunderbolt audio interface at the end of a daisy chain?



You should be able to use a *Mini-DP cable* in any Thunderbolt 2 slot. Think of it as USB-C/TB3. Same plug but different interface. Thunderbolt will accept pretty much anything these days, because it carries PCIe lanes in it, but Display port will not accept thunderbolt.

SO ideally you should be able to run your audio interface off 1 port directly on the iMac, and the other port will be for your dock. I would avoid putting your interface on the dock. I'm sure it will work, but if you can avoid that I'm sure it will work out better in the long run.

https://smile.amazon.com/OWC-Port-Thunderbolt-Cable-Included/dp/B00UUCZPTO/ref=sr_1_6?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1548982835&sr=1-6&keywords=thunderbolt%2B2%2Bdock&th=1 (This looks like the best mentioned dock for TB2) - Kinda pricey, but look around.

1 Monitor running HDMI, the other mini-DP. (Double check you are using up to date cables, nothing fancy needed but I found cables to be a good start if you have any issues).


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## jbuhler (Jan 31, 2019)

Damarus said:


> You should be able to use a *Mini-DP cable* in any Thunderbolt 2 slot. Think of it as USB-C/TB3. Same plug but different interface. Thunderbolt will accept pretty much anything these days, because it carries PCIe lanes in it, but Display port will not accept thunderbolt.
> 
> SO ideally you should be able to run your audio interface off 1 port directly on the iMac, and the other port will be for your dock. I would avoid putting your interface on the dock. I'm sure it will work, but if you can avoid that I'm sure it will work out better in the long run.
> 
> ...


Thanks! Yes, that dock is very much like the one I have. I’ll take a careful look at it, but every other dock I’ve looked at say they can only run one non-thunderbolt monitor. In my dock I tried connecting both DisplayPort and HDMI to the dock but if you run one monitor with the HDMI out, the DisplayPort monitor doesn’t work or vice versa. (DisplayPort does use the thunderbolt port on the dock but it is not a thunderbolt device.) Evidently, you can only run two monitors off the dock if one of them is real thunderbolt like an Apple display. That seems to be the case of every thunderbolt 2 dock I’ve looked at. What you can do, evidently, is add another thunderbolt device, like an additional dock, that supports HDMI or DisplayPort. At least I think that’s what you can do. The instructions are not entirely clear. And I’d rather not buy another dock only to learn it doesn’t work.


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## Damarus (Jan 31, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> Thanks! Yes, that dock is very much like the one I have. I’ll take a careful look at it, but every other dock I’ve looked at say they can only run one non-thunderbolt monitor. In my dock I tried connecting both DisplayPort and HDMI to the dock but if you run one monitor with the HDMI out, the DisplayPort monitor doesn’t work or vice versa. (DisplayPort does use the thunderbolt port on the dock but it is not a thunderbolt device.) Evidently, you can only run two monitors off the dock if one of them is real thunderbolt like an Apple display. That seems to be the case of every thunderbolt 2 dock I’ve looked at. What you can do, evidently, is add another thunderbolt device, like an additional dock, that supports HDMI or DisplayPort. At least I think that’s what you can do. The instructions are not entirely clear. And I’d rather not buy another dock only to learn it doesn’t work.



Interesting. But correct me if I'm wrong, you said you are using a Thunderbolt Cable to connect one of your monitors (*Monitor mini-DP *<-Tb cable-> *TB2 port on dock*). 

That will not work, you'll have to use a https://smile.amazon.com/Cable-Matters-Mini-DisplayPort-Black/dp/B00HNF0L2C/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1548989189&sr=8-3&keywords=mini+displayport+cable (Mini-DP -&gt; Mini-DP cable).

You can daisy chain docks, but again that could lead to weird display issues down the line.

Let me know if that makes sense or i pointed out something wrong!


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## jbuhler (Jan 31, 2019)

Damarus said:


> Interesting. But correct me if I'm wrong, you said you are using a Thunderbolt Cable to connect one of your monitors (*Monitor mini-DP *<-Tb cable-> *TB2 port on dock*).
> 
> That will not work, you'll have to use a https://smile.amazon.com/Cable-Matters-Mini-DisplayPort-Black/dp/B00HNF0L2C/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1548989189&sr=8-3&keywords=mini+displayport+cable (Mini-DP -&gt; Mini-DP cable).
> 
> ...


Thanks for the suggestion. I do very much appreciate ideas to try. What I’ve tried so far is DisplayPort plugged into TB port on dock (Mini DisplayPort on one end going into the dock; regular DisplayPort on the other going into the monitor) along with HDMI. That is an either/or configuration: you can either have the HDMI or the DisplayPort. I also tried using a thunderbolt cable to connect to the mini-DisplayPort on the monitor to the dock. That did not work at all. I have not tried a cable that is mini-DisplayPort on either end (I didn’t even know this was distinct from thunderbolt cable; I’ll need to buy one) so I can try that though it’s not clear to me why that would work and the mini to regular DisplayPort would not since that seems like it’s just a difference in cable not a difference in signal.


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## KMA (Jan 31, 2019)

I'm a longtime RME user, from the very old days of the Nuendo-badged Hammerfall, through the Fireface 800, to the UCX I've been using for the past 5 years or so.

They're rock-solid.


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## JeffvR (Feb 1, 2019)

RME is rock solid and low latency. They even support their oldest interfaces so that's a +. I have the RME UCX. I've also heard great stories about UAD, if you're into the UAD plugins you might want to go into that direction. Not much has changed the last couple of years in the interface world so it's probably an investment for a long time.


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## jbuhler (Feb 1, 2019)

JeffvR said:


> RME is rock solid and low latency. They even support their oldest interfaces so that's a +. I have the RME UCX. I've also heard great stories about UAD, if you're into the UAD plugins you might want to go into that direction. Not much has changed the last couple of years in the interface world so it's probably an investment for a long time.


Thanks for the input! I have not used UAD plugins. It would be a very nice addition but not the primary reason I'm looking for a new interface (form factor, especially easy access to headphone jack, and lower latency so I don't have to run the interface buffer at 1024, and my current interface, which has decent form factor, creates wake from sleep problems for the computer beyond needing the big buffer). Big issue for UAD is that it's thunderbolt (USB versions seem to only work on PC), and there seems no easy way to have two external video monitors and a thunderbolt audio interface given that the iMac has only two thunderbolt ports unless I'm willing to put the interface at the end of a thunderbolt daisy chain or buy another dock (unless a miniDP to miniDP cord works where a miniDp to regular DP did not).

RME Babyface is USB but I don't like the placement of the plugs, especially the headphone jack. The other RMEs I looked at are all beyond my price range. 

Given the monitor issues, I'm beginning to think that a USB interface is the better solution (and also generally less expensive), so I guess that means looking at the RME Babyface, a Clarett (this one concerns me because my current interface is Focusrite, and I don't know if the driver for the Clarett is sufficiently different not to create the same issue), a Steinberg, maybe MOTU. Any others?


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## stfciu (Feb 7, 2019)

The only one worth looking beside rme and apogee imo in that price range are the audient units. Have tested it with a friend who bought smaller unit. Very solid drivers (both mac and pc), great built and really good preamps.

Best regards,
Sebastian


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