# The Long Fall of Lance Armstrong



## snowleopard (Jan 20, 2011)

As this is where general universe repair belongs, here goes. I've been a cyclist for 25 years, a former amateur racer, and followed the sport very closely for the last two decades. So close I'm an admin on the world's biggest pro cycling website. Everyone has heard of Lance Armstrong. Most heard of him for years as a hero. The story about beating cancer, winning the Tour de France, starting his own foundation.

But over the last several years many of us grew increasingly suspicious of a darker side to his winning. That the reasons weren't merely from determination and hard work, but in a sport dominated by one doping scandal after another, by those very same methods.

This was brought face first to the US forefront when last year Floyd Lands - himself one of those who had tested positive for doping - changed his mind and spilled his guts, naming Armstrong in the process. At the time his credibility was brought into question by many. But the closer people looked, and the more he spoke, the greater the ring of truth started to be. Soon it was revealed that Armstrong was under investigation by the FDA, and the lead investigator none other than Jeff Novitzky, the same man who took on Balco for MLB. The Wall Street Journal, of all publications, ran a very detailed article looking into the matter. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704911704575326753200584006.html

The investigation quietly continued, with many ex-teammates, trainers, doctors, all being called to testify before a grand jury. Armstrong and his attorney referred to this as a "witch hunt", but that didn't alter the course. As time passed, more and more people started to abandon ship, and leaks became very porous out of the so-called Livestrong camp. Rumors great about two very detailed and long articles on the issue. One to be published by Sports Illustrated in the US, the other out of Europe. While it took a while for the SI article to clear legal hurdles, it hit the presses today. 

[url=http://sportsillustrated.cnn...ortsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm[/url]

Unlike allegations in the past, this brought the story more to the forefront. It appeared on the NBC Nightly News tonight, and two PhD scientists who run a site called the Science of Sport, wrote a detailed comment on the article. Joe Lindsay, respected long time author for Bicycling magazine, and other periodicals, and one who looked favorable upon Armstrong in the past wrote this article today further dissecting the situation.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/01/drug-of-2011-hemassist-and-armstrong.html

Rumors continue beyond what was published. Misuse of money, tax fraud, etc. Some rumors being that an indictment from the FDA, or DOJ could come anytime, but as more people seek to speak out, the indictment is held while the new info comes in to pile on.

What complicates this is unlike someone like Michael Vick who eventually did plea out, and admitted his guilt for dog fighting, Armstrong built his entire career, and his reputation, on the pillar of being the clean athlete. One who never used drugs, and would never do so, because he had received a gift after beating cancer. By pleading out, if charged, Armstrong could avoid large fines and prison time. But everything he built upon it, his reputation and beyond, millions of dollars worth, would completely crumble. It would quite possibly considered the biggest fraud in the history of sports. And in the end, whether he is taken to court or not, once this is further in the open, that's exactly what I think is going to happen.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 20, 2011)

I'm going to read that whole article (just been skimming it). I'm a pretty new convert to cycling, it's an amazing sport populated by, imho, the toughest athletes in the world. They have my total respect. I've often thought even if they were ALL doped up to the eyeballs, their feats are still extraordinary.

Cheating has accompanied the Tour De France since the very first year of its existence. Legend has it that some people took short cuts and even used trains in the early years... it was like Wacky Races. The only thing that's changed is the level of sophistication.

Despite this, it's all incredibly sad. The problem is you never know what you're watching. If everyone was on it, as Lilly Allen claims, then it would be a level playing field. But if some are clean and some aren't, with no way of telling who is and isn't (unless you're as blatant as Landis or plain get caught) then it becomes rather meaningless to watch.

Last year's TDF was so scandal-free... then there was the Contador story and now this. Sigh.

EDIT - just finished reading the whole thing. I dunno... nothing sticks on Armstrong. There doesn't appear to be an irrefutable KO here.


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## snowleopard (Jan 20, 2011)

I'd recommend you stay tuned.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 20, 2011)

snowleopard @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> I'd recommend you stay tuned.



Sure will...

Of course I want to believe he's just been slandered... for the good of the sport overall I want to believe it. Did you know (you probably did) only 1 TDF winner in the last 15 years has had no serious allegations made against him? (Sastre). I mean... that's REALLY bad. If Contador and Armstrong both go down, that's the majority of 15 years of TDF history down the crapper, pretty much. That's as big a body blow to a sport as I can think of.

Given all the competing forces in sport, business and media I'm wary of the phrase "no smoke without fire". On the other hand, there's probably no smoke without fire.


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## noiseboyuk (May 21, 2011)

I think that's it now, with Hincape's testimony. Add in Contador's ongoing trouble... this is just terrible for the sport.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13481408


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## mverta (May 24, 2011)

I've played sports of one sort or another all my life; I love a good contest, and it's fun to live vicariously for a few moments through the successes of others.

But there is a reason that there are no athletes in the history books.

You can name philosophers, teachers, musicians, poets, generals - a whole host of people - from 500 years ago; or 1000 years ago; or 200 years ago. But you can't name the best athlete from the 5th Century. Or the 2nd Century. Or from the 1400's. You can't because nobody can, because in the final analysis, they're totally irrelevant. History has made the final judgement on the value of sports accomplishments: zero. The only one anybody remembers is the guy who shouted, "Nike!" and he was a messenger, not a marathon runner. As soon as the pages wear on whatever 50-years-of Almanac may be gracing the periodicals shelf at the local bookstore, the "accomplishments" of the listed will return to the void. But not da Vinci's. Or Ghandi's. Or Shakespeare's.

So ultimately, if you're looking to an athlete to be a hero; to be a role model; to be an aspirational figure, take a page from history and look somewhere else. 


_Mike


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## chimuelo (May 24, 2011)

And let me guess, the FDA is heading this righteous cause to make an example of an athlete who made the wrong choice and took a drug, but didn't distribute it...?
Oh, we gotta get him.... =o 
Perhaps they should move the trial to California, I hear 35,000 law breakers, mostly drug dealers, will be released.
I feel sorry for Californians. They seem to get screwed over and over by public servants, and still turn to the law abiding citizens to pay for their mistakes.
Maybe they'll just triple the driver registration fees so they don't have to call it a tax.

I sure hope the Feds fall on their face with this senseless waste of time and money.
If a larger Government would benefit us I would be for it.
But all I see is endless corruption, new wars, more lies, less freedoms, and just total failure at so many levels.
They cant even send the fucking mail without losing billions every year.......
This is a sad case with Lance Armstrong, I saw a similar show with Conseco, Bonds and Maguire.

I say we prosecute the FDA for allowing Monsanto to feed us GM food without testing it, or DuPont for making my oldest brother fight disease after disease from Agent Orange, or let's get John Edwards and put his ass in jail.
These criminals wear suits and ties, just like the Sicilain Mafia they learned so much from.......

Leave Lance alone, he's already been permanantly damaged for his deeds.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (May 25, 2011)

Great post!!


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 25, 2011)

Mike, just for the sake of a silly argument: I think you could say the same about artistic performances that are live and therefore fleeting.

Mozart and Bach aren't still relevant because they were great performers, they're relevant because of the music they left behind. Great actors, dancers, possibly even performance artists..they're also forgotten by history.

Athleticism is just a different kind of intelligence, in other words. For the most part it requires a lot less on the part of the viewer (!) but I see it as another human endeavor that requires just as much work as far as the athletes are concerned.

Point being, we all sit on the toilet; anyone who wants to be a hero or role model should look somewhere else for their motivation.


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## José Herring (May 25, 2011)

chimuelo @ Tue May 24 said:


> And let me guess, the FDA is heading this righteous cause to make an example of an athlete who made the wrong choice and took a drug, but didn't distribute it...?
> Oh, we gotta get him.... =o
> Perhaps they should move the trial to California, I hear 35,000 law breakers, mostly drug dealers, will be released.
> I feel sorry for Californians. They seem to get screwed over and over by public servants, and still turn to the law abiding citizens to pay for their mistakes.
> ...



California actually got screwed by the Supreme Court this time. The state of California was actually arguing on the other side against the release.

That's the only problem I fear with the court going more "liberal". The court actually ruled that the conditions in California prisons was a violation of the prisoners constitutional rights and sighted mental and physical health concerns for the prison population at large. Ok, I can almost understand the physical health issues. Nobody wants a virus or something to be unleashed. But mental health? C'mon, they're in prison. They're suppose to be depressed! :roll: Those mamby, pamby "everybody has rights" people really drive me up the walls.

As far as Lance is concerned the media loves it when a hero falls from grace.


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## José Herring (May 25, 2011)

mverta @ Tue May 24 said:


> I've played sports of one sort or another all my life; I love a good contest, and it's fun to live vicariously for a few moments through the successes of others.
> 
> But there is a reason that there are no athletes in the history books.
> 
> ...



Dude too short sighted. Plenty of Athletes in the history books going all the way back to Greece, Rome and Egypt.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 25, 2011)

Jose, I don't see the prison issue as being that simple (and neither did five Supreme Court justices). There's a point at which it really is cruel and inhumane to keep people that bunched up, and a lot of prisoners don't need to be there:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarcerat ... ted_States

We have the highest rate of incarceration in the world, and all the "tough on crime" laws that started in the Reagan era have made it higher.


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## chimuelo (May 25, 2011)

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCQQFjAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bobbarker.com%2Fweb%2Fcategory.asp%3FAppriseWebKey%3D033700828.02402759%26AppriseCustCode%3DWEBGUEST%26category%3D00000215&ei=4YLdTfYZ4vHSAZLhpfkP&usg=AFQjCNHNiLU6MaFMbTWv-g2YI-pOs_TKxg&sig2=oOkoP4asy9H_LPSGwgNirA (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;source=w ... LPSGwgNirA)

Reagan must be loved by the Liberal elite in California. Just look at the prices the private prisons charge the state, and I am sure everyone recognizes the above elitist. 
There are several retired judges, politicians and movie stars that love these jails when they're jammed packed like animals.
Now if the inmates could vote, the Liberals would be working on reduced sentances, but since convicts can't vote, they serve the elite quite well right where they're at. 

The Supreme Court had to rescue these people, they should be proud.
What was Bob Barker always saying? ............Please be sure to Neuter your pets.......????
But give me all of your minority convicts. They will be " rehabilitated. "

Just another big government failed social experiment. But the failure costs us not them. They have years in advance to invest in these businesses and programs since the politicians sell anything for profit and favor.
Have no fear, the tax payers can cover for their mistakes, and the profit makers slide out the back door.
Just like in DC.............

God Bless The USA.............. 0oD


Leave Lance alone..............he's been through Hell. Not the cancer either, being with Sheryl Crow was more than any hell or earthly disaster could ever muster up.
Her drummer gigs here and has great war stories.


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## snowleopard (May 25, 2011)

Interesting to see my thread brought back. 

More names will come out testifying against Armstrong. Leiphemer, Zabriski, Livingston, Jemison. Many more. I don't know that he's "suffered enough" though, at least not as of today, as he still gets to keep all he earned dishonestly, has still denied everything, and is still attacking and blaming everyone else. But as the testimony and evidence piles up, at some point he's going to have to confess, and plea out. And hopefully help nail the most corrupt officials at the UCI and USAC in the process. 

Having said all that, I think tossing him in prison, even for distributing PEDs and pressing others to use them, would be pointless and a waste of time.


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## Brobdingnagian (May 25, 2011)

"Having said all that, I think tossing him in prison, even for distributing PEDs and pressing others to use them, would be pointless and a waste of time."

Agreed. But the whole mess is a bit tedious. I want to know who really stands to gain by all of this? Is it a DA who is trying to make a name for him/herself with an eye on Public Office (insert a Giuliani vs Marc Rich or a pre-call girl Spitzer vs. Wall Street)?

With the big race coming up fast, do we really want to have Phil Liggett & Paul Sherwin having to spend time on this during the race? Already the Contador thing is going to be mentioned ad nauseum.....

-B


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## noiseboyuk (May 25, 2011)

Brobdingnagian @ Thu May 26 said:


> I want to know who really stands to gain by all of this?



Indeed. It's a big question. Pro cycling is so insanely grueling I wouldn't blame anyone for doping. But the problem really is fairness. Either everyone should be allowed to do anything they want, or people have to play by the rules - its the unfair advantage that is the root problem here, making an obvious mockery of the race results if some are "doing the right thing" and some are using artificial methods to achieve performance. Look at what one day's drug enhancement did for Floyd Landis on his Tour De France win... if it can really make that much difference, of course the entire sport becomes a mockery, and something should be done.

As Snow says, Lance has been loudly protesting his innocence for a very long time, pouring scorn on anyone and everyone who has dared to challenge him. If that's all a pack of lies, all his wins are potentially unsafe and financially people have supported him for no reason... there shouldn't be consequences? I'm not sure I'd buy into the "poor Lance, leave him alone" campaign. It's duplicity on a colossal scale.

Perhaps the most serious aspect to it all is the UCI taking bribes (if true of course). That really does show institutional corruption.

But as to the implication of your question Brobdingnagian - yes, I'm sure your suspicions are also correct.


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## mverta (May 26, 2011)

josejherring @ Wed May 25 said:


> Dude too short sighted. Plenty of Athletes in the history books going all the way back to Greece, Rome and Egypt.



Uh-huh. Like... Herodes the Shot-Putter, Spiro the Guy-Who-Could-Run-Real-Fast, and Kastor, King-of-Sit-Ups. The giants. I was forgetting their indelible mark on history. I stand corrected.

I love your argument: "Well there's Ghandi, and then there's that guy from Egypt who really knew how to swim good." :lol: 


_Mike


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## NYC Composer (May 26, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed May 25 said:


> Jose, I don't see the prison issue as being that simple (and neither did five Supreme Court justices). There's a point at which it really is cruel and inhumane to keep people that bunched up, and a lot of prisoners don't need to be there:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarcerat ... ted_States
> 
> We have the highest rate of incarceration in the world, and all the "tough on crime" laws that started in the Reagan era have made it higher.



Nick-try not to pass out when I say this without a 'but'-

I agree.


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## chimuelo (May 26, 2011)

FWIW, My son went to private school for 4 years and I helped review his report on Jim Thorpe who was in the history books.
But " free " public schools, that's an entirely seperate matter there.
They try and teach new concepts of origin, their version of history, and other watered down politically correct crap, and then wonder why the drop out rates are astronomical, and why Americans barely speak one language.

Public school graduates travelling to Europe is a rude awakening. I am quite sure they are laughed at just like like the Bi Lingual immigrants who actually sit there and tell each other what a moron they're speaking to here at home, and the barely educated American is clueless. Nothing a few more Trillion can't fix though, as long as the big spenders keep getting tax payers cash for pensions 'eh...?

One thing is certain our children love role models like athletes and musicians, to overlook this and cram poltically correct crap down their throats has failed.
The proof is on our jails. 

My son has posters of Miles Davis, Lebron James, and some rapper I don't recall, but is it any wonder why this reprocessing agenda of our chidren in public schools have failed........?
Maybe they need athletes in the history books more...?

Obama will definately have his place in the history books, but it will be to relieve the white guilt trips of the elite. They would never dare show his more embarrassing moments like toasting to the Queen, or saying Policemen act stupidly, or the endless lies and strings of broken promises, and trillions wasted.
No we'll see crap like how great America is because we let men of color have leadership positions, even when they barely qualify.
Best campaigner I ever saw though.

Athletes over politically correct history books is worth a try, what have we got to lose, except a few million more dropouts that can be " cared " for and profited from being kept in their human zoos........


God Bless The USA...............


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 26, 2011)

*swoon*


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 26, 2011)

"Well there's Ghandi and there's this guy from Egypt who knew how to play the violin good."

(I read about him in one of my favorite books: "How to Write Good" by Dick Hurts.)


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## Brobdingnagian (May 26, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Wed May 25 said:


> Look at what one day's drug enhancement did for Floyd Landis on his Tour De France win...



I remember that stage quite well. Silly really. Didn't he actually make up some absurdly Herculean time that day? Something to the order of 45 minutes? Naïvely, I tried to convince myself that it was a triumph of his sheer will... :( :oops: 

I am looking forward to following the Tour yet again this July, but not as much as I used to.

Forever forward, with integrity.

-B


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## snowleopard (May 28, 2011)

Drats. I posted this here last night, and the post has vanquished. I can't imagine what I wrote would be objectionable? I'll paraphrase it. 

In the 2006 Tour de France Floyd Landis lost 10 minutes one day, and made up almost eight minutes the next. But it's not like he took a bunch of drugs on that second day. He was doped almost the entire Tour, by his own admission. As were most around him, as history has sadly shown. 



> I want to know who really stands to gain by all of this?



I can answer that: Young racers today wanting to get into the sport and have a chance at success without doping. Or without having to worry about ending up like Frank Vandebrouke, Jose Marie Jiminez, Marco Pantani, Marc Demeyer, Michel Zanoli, and few dozen others: Dead. 

It should also be known that many other riders who doped found the doping caused great psychological damage. Jiminez, Tyler Hamilton, Joe Papp and others ended up with deep depression from their cheating. Papp actually got the triple whammy. Health issues, depression, and he's potentially heading to prison for sharing and selling doping products to fellow riders, even though he has since admitted it all to authorities. 

It's a mess, and no young racer should have to enter the sport facing this.


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 4, 2012)

Well, looks like he got away with it yet again

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-16883468


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 4, 2012)

I was thinking about this thread when I read that they were stopping the investigation.

NBUK, it's also quite possible that he's innocent. You and I have no idea.


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 4, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Feb 04 said:


> I was thinking about this thread when I read that they were stopping the investigation.
> 
> NBUK, it's also quite possible that he's innocent. You and I have no idea.



It's possible. But there's so much that is so incriminating in the public domain now, and there's something really odd about stopping this with not even an explanation given as to why. How much time and money wasted, with no reason given? If he's innocent, an impartial trial is the way to demonstrate that. It really doesn't look good.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 4, 2012)

You need evidence to put someone on trial!


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 4, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Feb 04 said:


> You need evidence to put someone on trial!



And that's the thing - we've all heard plenty of that. If there was lack of evidence in their inquiry, I'd have thought the phrase "insufficient evidence" when announcing the inquiry closure would have been appropriate.


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## noiseboyuk (Aug 24, 2012)

...and here's Snowleopard's thread again.

Well, it's one of the main headlines here, but here's a link anyway - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19364384 . He's playing the victim, but I don't buy it. He's renowned as a fighter, and what he's trying to avoid is a trial, not a conviction. There appears to be a tower of evidence against him... forget Landis, people like Hincape are prepared to testify. Chances are it will now seep out in books and exclusives for months or years. The argument he gives that he's passed a lot of dope tests and he wants to focus on the charity work are extremely uncompelling. With the former, it's obvious that all dope cheats attempt to disguise or they wouldn't get away with it - with the latter his charity will practically collapse if the public see him as a cheat. He's obviously banking on people buying his victim story and not accepting or being informed about what will come - the rash of evidence against that.

As I said a year ago, it will be a terrible day for the sport if 14 or 15 previous winners will have had their titles stripped for doing offences (not forgetting Contador still protests his innocence). Is it worth it? I agree with Snowleopard's year old post:



snowleopard @ Sat May 28 said:


> > I want to know who really stands to gain by all of this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I much better understand the anger felt by clean cyclists now, knowing how hard they work and train and yet unable to win. Personally I hope any clean rider who has genuine evidence against Armstrong does come forward now. I'm getting pretty annoyed actually that he's avoiding a trial... I think this is his final roll of the psychological dice to try to protect his legacy, and it seems pretty cheap.


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## choc0thrax (Aug 24, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Fri Aug 24 said:


> ...and here's Snowleopard's thread again.
> 
> Well, it's one of the main headlines here, but here's a link anyway - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19364384 . He's playing the victim, but I don't buy it. He's renowned as a fighter, and what he's trying to avoid is a trial, not a conviction. There appears to be a tower of evidence against him... forget Landis, people like Hincape are prepared to testify. Chances are it will now seep out in books and exclusives for months or years. The argument he gives that he's passed a lot of dope tests and he wants to focus on the charity work are extremely uncompelling. With the former, it's obvious that all dope cheats attempt to disguise or they wouldn't get away with it - with the latter his charity will practically collapse if the public see him as a cheat. He's obviously banking on people buying his victim story and not accepting or being informed about what will come - the rash of evidence against that.
> 
> ...



I hope cycling dies as a sport.

This might reduce the number of lycra wearing retards that populate bike paths. A few weeks ago I was turning onto a bike path and I hear "YO, WAKE UP!!!" and _zrrrmmm!!!_ this fully decked-out cyclist dude blasts by at like 40 miles an hour. He was gone before I could yell "we're all very impressed!".

I dunno where these douchebags come from but every summer there they are. I assume that they die in the winter months only for new ones to hatch every spring like spiders.


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## Dan Selby (Aug 24, 2012)

Guy, did you catch the (always excellent) R4's "More or Less" from a few weeks back? Looking at the numbers that suggest that cycling (TdF in particular) appears to be cleaner:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01kt7d3


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## noiseboyuk (Aug 24, 2012)

Dan Selby @ Fri Aug 24 said:


> Guy, did you catch the (always excellent) R4's "More or Less" from a few weeks back? Looking at the numbers that suggest that cycling (TdF in particular) appears to be cleaner:
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01kt7d3



Ooh no I didn't, good catch. Will take a listen when I have half an hour. I know it's a constant refrain of "we're on top of it, doping is now under control", but I agree - my sense is that the last couple of years in particular have been much better. I remember several riders openly saying of 2011/12, allegedly a little dull race-wise that "well that's what happens when you don't have cheats pulling in drug-assisted days". Contador's last TDF performance in particular (and so far in the Vuelta) seems to indicate a brilliant rider but just a shade more human...

Choco - Saxaphones and Cyclists... come on, too easy targets... you're losing your edge...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 24, 2012)

Has he admitted doping?


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## noiseboyuk (Aug 24, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Aug 24 said:


> Has he admitted doping?



...and that's EXACTLY what he wants people to say.

Unbelievably, today I heard a cycling commentator said that, because it hasn't been proven in court, he might not be stripped of his TDF titles after all. I doubt he'll get away with this, if he does it is the ultimate machievellian masterstroke. Strike out all the evidence against you just by saying "I won't play any more". If only that worked in criminal courts, eh?

Nick, I know where you're coming from, but there's enough stuff in the public domain already from EXTREMELY reliable sources to absolutely require a trial. The evidence is highly damning, and that's just the stuff we know about. If he refuses to go to trial, that seems appalling to me. I'm sick of his martyr act. If he has nothing to hide, go to trial with the best lawyers he can afford - which is probably all of them. Right now, my opinion of him is lower than Landis - at least that nasty piece of work fessed up in the end and has taken the consequences. And the argument "innocent until proven guilty" SO doesn't apply when you refuse to be tried.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 24, 2012)

Lance Armstrong didn't ask me to ask the question! I'm not coming from anywhere - just asking in earnest whether he's admitted guilt.

At the same time, we don't know whether this is the equivalent of plea bargaining. It isn't impossible that he simply doesn't want to go to trial and knows himself that he won the TDF seven times.

I don't have an opinion either way, however.


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## noiseboyuk (Aug 24, 2012)

Oh, sorry Nick!

...and I see he has, in fact, now been stripped of the titles... though I'm slightly confused as the TDF organisers are sorta stalling a little on making a statement. Or something.


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## noiseboyuk (Aug 25, 2012)

Dan Selby @ Fri Aug 24 said:


> Guy, did you catch the (always excellent) R4's "More or Less" from a few weeks back? Looking at the numbers that suggest that cycling (TdF in particular) appears to be cleaner:
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01kt7d3



Just listened to this, Dan - great show, as you say. It's very much in line with other stuff I've read - cycling fans, I think and hope, will need to get used to a more "boring" sport. When power figures from the suspected doping era are higher than any human has ever measured in a lab, and current figures are within the realms of plausibility, it's pretty hopeful evidence that things have changed.


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## chimuelo (Aug 26, 2012)

The first 3 Tours were truly amazing. But when I saw him finish in first place on the 4th Tour using a Uni Cycle I started thinking that he might be Juicing.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 12, 2012)

Well it feels remiss not to resurrect this thread. A whole decade of cycling lost. It would be mortally depressing if it wasn't for the change that it seems pretty much everyone says has occurred since then.


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## snowleopard (Oct 15, 2012)

Yes, very damning now that the evidence is out there. More than anyone expected, even Armstrong and his attorneys I think. If anyone is up for reading, the initial 202 page finding, plus the addendum and everything else leading up to over 1000 pages can be found on USADA's site. www.usada.org

I know I initially started this thread trying to point out that Armstrong doped, and lied about it. But I now find the whole issue depressing. To know just how far he went, and how corrupt and complicit the sport was, just rotten to the core. No one wins here. :(


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 24, 2012)

On a more positive note, I am ridiculously excited about the 2013 TDF. I want to take three weeks off next summer.

If you get a chance to watch the launch event, make sure you see the 10 minute 2012 highlights video - a tour de force (if you will) of music, editing and incredible shots and drama. Also a v funny moment in the interviews afterwards with Bradely Wiggins and Mark Cavendish - the reporter failing to cover the two with his mic or get any response from Bradley ("I wasn't really paying attention"), Bradley orders him to give Mark the mic, who then ignores the reporter completely and proceeds to interview Bradley himself.

As for the 100th anniversary - Corsica, Ventoux, 2x Alpe d'huez are all great, but for some ridiculous reason I'm most excited about Paris - for the first time round the Arc De Triumph (10 times) and finishing at 9.45pm with a firework display. The entire capital will shut down I reckon.

The only blackspot... seeing Contador back in the line up. I hope the 100th is a true classic with no doped up beyond-spectacular performances, but a fight to the finish in Yellow. And I wanna see Cav get 5 and those fireworks! (stupidly partial Brit, I know....)


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## snowleopard (Nov 2, 2012)

I too hope that the sport really is cleaning itself up. It is clean_er_ than it's been in years, but suspicions remain. Contador is a gifted rider, but has a dark past, and after Team Sky hired Geert Leinders and the way the team performed left as many questions as answers. Doping isn't as widespread as what we've now seen what USPS did, but it's still a cloud overhead that hasn't quite passed. 

Still, I think they are going to go all out in trying to put on a great event, and I fully expect Contador to win (and not test positive). 

Look for Brad Wiggins to aim for the Giro more than the Tour. He's all but said so himself. He was with the leaders there some 3 years ago then had one bad day and I'd like to think he wants to go back to Italy and put that feather in his cap. The course suits him as well.


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## RiffWraith (Jan 12, 2013)

Armstrong "to admit doping"

http://msn.foxsports.com/cycling/story/ ... iew-011113

:roll:


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 12, 2013)

The world and his lawyers will be watching. Whatever he says, it's gonna be compulsive viewing.


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## snowleopard (Jan 14, 2013)

I wish the guy would just go away.


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## chimuelo (Jan 14, 2013)

Eric Holder would have loved to prosecute him. He might have actually won a case in his first term.... o=<


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## guydoingmusic (Jan 14, 2013)

So the guy cheated in a bike race... 

and he also raised millions for Cancer foundation...

What exactly is the problem?  Just saying.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 14, 2013)

I understand Hitler was really good for the German economy. Just sayin'.

Not that the examples are in any way comparable, I'm simply saying good doesn't necessarily negate bad. It's all just another part of the weird human puzzle.


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## snowleopard (Jan 14, 2013)

Well, there's the fact he cheated others out of a life pursuing their dreams honestly. Then pressured others into doping and cheating as well. Then proceeded to bully and smear anyone who questioned him. Then repeatedly lied about the whole thing, while threatening and even suing others in the process. Then tried to use political muscle to stop the main organization attempting to stop rampant doping. 

But outside of that...

Seriously, the guy's entire career was based on cheating and lying. He's a fraud and I don't believe anything he says. If you want to admit it, then call up the people you cheated and arrange reparations for them from the millions of dollars you've made off their backs. If you want to apologize, call up all the cancer patients you lied to. If you want to tell the whole truth, then call up USADA and WADA and tell them everything you know. 

Do all that Lance, then come to true fans of cycling and sports and ask for forgiveness.


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## rayinstirling (Jan 15, 2013)

I have one general observation to make here.
Lance Armstrong like Jimmy Saville here in the UK have one thing in common and I think quite frankly most high profile con artists there have ever been act the same.
They hide their discretions in full view of the public. There is no better way to prevent questions being asked or getting questions sidelined than having a charitable profile.
The more millions come in the less questions asked. And! my experience in life has shown such a thing happens everywhere in society. The outwardly nicest people sometimes have good reason to be that way.


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## Lex (Jan 15, 2013)

rayinstirling @ Tue Jan 15 said:


> I have one general observation to make here.
> Lance Armstrong like Jimmy Saville here in the UK have one thing in common and I think quite frankly most high profile con artists there have ever been act the same.
> They hide their discretions in full view of the public. There is no better way to prevent questions being asked or getting questions sidelined than having a charitable profile.
> The more millions come in the less questions asked. And! my experience in life has shown such a thing happens everywhere in society. The outwardly nicest people sometimes have good reason to be that way.



Comparing Armstrong to Saville on any grounds is beyond bad taste. One guy was getting high to drive a fukin bicycle faster the other was raping children for decades.
What a hell...

alex


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## rayinstirling (Jan 15, 2013)

I'm comparing motives for involvement as figureheads of charitable organisations.
No more no less.
I could write a book.


The motive being "get away with it" whatever it it may be.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 15, 2013)

snowleopard @ Tue Jan 15 said:


> Well, there's the fact he cheated others out of a life pursuing their dreams honestly. Then pressured others into doping and cheating as well. Then proceeded to bully and smear anyone who questioned him. Then repeatedly lied about the whole thing, while threatening and even suing others in the process. Then tried to use political muscle to stop the main organization attempting to stop rampant doping.
> 
> But outside of that...
> 
> ...



Ace post.

Yesterday, a great British cyclist, Nicole Cooke, retired. She gave a stupendous statement regarding the highs and lows, talking about discrimination and drugs among other things (you can read the whole thing here - http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/ja ... -statement ). It's worth emphasising she does talk a lot about the great times and all the people who supported her and women's cycling. But here she is talking about Lance, a female drug cheat cyclist called Genevieve Jeanson and the fallout:



> Second fiddle to Jeanson during this time in Canada was a rider with morals called Lyne Bessette. Nobody can give back to Lyne Bessette or I the wins Jeanson stole from us. Throughout her career Jeanson repeatedly lied, just like Lance and yet now, she confesses that she had been on an extensive doping program since she was 16. The full story only came out, via quality investigative journalism.
> 
> Jeanson states, like all the others, she is "repentant" and all that is behind her. All these "born again" champions of a clean sport. They could be more accurately described as criminals who stole other's livelihoods who are only ever genuinely sorry about one thing — they are very sorry they were caught.
> 
> ...


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## alanbuchanan (Jan 15, 2013)

Lance will always be a hero in my eyes. The comparisons to Savile and Hitler are shameful!


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 15, 2013)

alanbuchanan @ Tue Jan 15 said:


> Lance will always be a hero in my eyes. The comparisons to Savile and Hitler are shameful!



Saville and Hitler are OTT, but absolutely not a hero to me. A bully, a serial liar who defrauded millions effectively. Read Nicole Cooke's statement in the post above yours to see what a real hero is like.


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## guydoingmusic (Jan 15, 2013)

I'm not saying it's right... But this is the real world. People lie, cheat, steal, and do whatever it takes to get to the top. I'm not saying all people. But it happens all the time. I'm not saying it's even fair, but no one ever said life is fair. 

I'm not condoning any wrong behavior or actions, but people make mistakes. We all do. We are human. Regardless of the doping scandal, I was just saying that I'm glad someone was able to raise $500,000,000 for a cancer foundation. That's more than I've made in the last 2 months combined.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 15, 2013)

Ah yes. Ends justify the means, eh?


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## guydoingmusic (Jan 15, 2013)

nope! And I can understand why my previous post maybe sounds like that. I was only saying that it happens in every profession every day. For instance, I have personally met people who make millions in the music industry using "cracked" software. While the majority, if not all, of us on this forum pay for our software without fail. And some of us struggle every month to pay the bills and put food on the table. It sucks... but it happens. While this may be a poor comparison, I still think it's relevant.

I was only saying... At the very least... The Livestrong foundation has raised nearly 500 million. Again not justifying it. Only looking for the silver lining here.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 15, 2013)

guydoingmusic @ Tue Jan 15 said:


> nope! And I can understand why my previous post maybe sounds like that. I was only saying that it happens in every profession every day. For instance, I have personally met people who make millions in the music industry using "cracked" software. While the majority, if not all, of us on this forum pay for our software without fail. And some of us struggle every month to pay the bills and put food on the table. It sucks... but it happens. While this may be a poor comparison, I still think it's relevant.
> 
> I was only saying... At the very least... The Livestrong foundation has raised nearly 500 million. Again not justifying it. Only looking for the silver lining here.


. 

As much as 500 million is a lot of coin, the peope he defrauded by touting his image- will they be re-thinking any future charitable donations? "Ah, it's all a scam, why should i support another one?". He may very well have undone what good he's done by lying, cheating and scamming the system for so many years....


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## reddognoyz (Jan 15, 2013)

I've shared this personal view of pro athletes doping with my friends but I think it's fare to add it in here in a forum of my piers.


If I could take something that would make me a better and more successful composer. If I could take something that would allow me to make more money and do better for my family. I'd do it in a heartbeat. I totally sympathize with Lance and all professional athletes who are on the goon juice. He dug himself into a hole with his denials, but I can see how that would be an unwinnable situation.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 15, 2013)

reddognoyz @ Tue Jan 15 said:


> I've shared this personal view of pro athletes doping with my friends but I think it's fare to add it in here in a forum of my piers.
> 
> 
> If I could take something that would make me a better and more successful composer. If I could take something that would allow me to make more money and do better for my family. I'd do it in a heartbeat. I totally sympathize with Lance and all professional athletes who are on the goon juice. He dug himself into a hole with his denials, but I can see how that would be an unwinnable situation.



So you'd rob a bank if you thought you'd get away with it to give a better life for your family? You'd run drugs? You'd employ a hitman to kill someone if it would make life better for your family? Just curious if there are any ethical or legal boundaries at all.


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## alanbuchanan (Jan 15, 2013)

There's no proof to suggest that a vast majority of the world's top cyclists _aren't_ using performance-enhancing drugs.


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## reddognoyz (Jan 15, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Jan 15 said:


> reddognoyz @ Tue Jan 15 said:
> 
> 
> > I've shared this personal view of pro athletes doping with my friends but I think it's fare to add it in here in a forum of my piers.
> ...



Hey Guy,

No!!!!! I meant I would take a (musical) performance enhancing drug! Not "I would do anything to get ahead!!!"


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 15, 2013)

reddognoyz @ Wed Jan 16 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Tue Jan 15 said:
> 
> 
> > reddognoyz @ Tue Jan 15 said:
> ...



But you said you sympathised with Lance's decision becausse it helped his family? It's bonkers logic imo. How do Lance's kids view him now, I wonder? What values has he instilled in them? And then how about his fans? Presumably split down the middle between those who are disgusted and those who still hold him as a hero, who now see that cheating gets results. Once you've embraced a philosophy of "ends justify the means" - which this absolutely is - where do you stop? In our line of work it's open season for piracy that's for sure. It's good for your family, cos they will save all that money to go into the college fund etc. No difference at all imo.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 15, 2013)

alanbuchanan @ Tue Jan 15 said:


> There's no proof to suggest that a vast majority of the world's cyclists _aren't_ using performance-enhancing drugs.



Proof - you're right. Evidence - you're wrong. The most compelling evidence is the performances that cyclists are putting in are now less dramatic and spectacular than those of a decade ago (or more recently in some cases). In the era where riders were producing power outputs beyond anything that could be created and measured in lab conditions, you had to suspect something was amiss. However now the power outputs are in line with what you'd expect from top athletes. So not proof as such, but strong evidence that - finally - the sport is getting itself under control.


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## snowleopard (Jan 16, 2013)

Lance was not just another doper. He was one of the biggest dopers in cycling, or the world. If you look into the USADA's Reasoned Decision against him, and read Tyler Hamilton's book, you'll see he had not only access to the best PEDs but the least chance of getting caught. While most cyclists doped over the last 20 years, not all did. Those that chose not to, had no chance to live their dreams out in the sport they loved. Imagine you're an honest musician, but others are taking illegal drugs that may someday kill them to make them better musicians. What would you do? I'd fight it. 

I should add I'm not a big supporter of Hamilton either. I'm glad he confessed and cooperated with USADA. I applaud that. But like the others who have since done the same, Hincapie, Leipheimer, Vaughters, etc. they aren't heroes for what they did. If they were heroes, they would have stood up and against doping back when it was first presented to them. 

The heroes in this were riders like Christophe Bassons, Gilles Delion, Scott Mercier, or Malcolm Lange who refused to dope, and never got to live the life they dreamed of leading because of it. The rewards and adulation instead went to cheaters, while they ended up working day jobs. Heroes were also people like Betsy Andreu, Mike Anderson or Greg LeMond, who spoke out early against doping and were savagely and viciously attacked for doing so by Armstrong and his followers.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 16, 2013)

reddognoyz @ Tue Jan 15 said:


> I've shared this personal view of pro athletes doping with my friends but I think it's fare to add it in here in a forum of my piers.
> 
> 
> If I could take something that would make me a better and more successful composer. If I could take something that would allow me to make more money and do better for my family. I'd do it in a heartbeat. I totally sympathize with Lance and all professional athletes who are on the goon juice. He dug himself into a hole with his denials, but I can see how that would be an unwinnable situation.



So you would essentially endorse getting ahead in the music business by cheating, lying and illegally obtaining an unfair advantage over your competitors? You would threaten to sue those who told the truth about your deceptions? It's an interesting point of view-I know a lot of people who did this in the jingle business. Some were quite successful. Then there was Joe Brooks...in the end, not so much.

Have you tried bribery, kickbacks and payola? They still works well as far as I can see. In their own way, all of them are "performance enhancing".


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## guydoingmusic (Jan 16, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Wed Jan 16 said:


> reddognoyz @ Tue Jan 15 said:
> 
> 
> > I've shared this personal view of pro athletes doping with my friends but I think it's fare to add it in here in a forum of my piers.
> ...



To think that is not what happens in the music industry everyday... is a huge misconception. That's just reality. There are some honest people in this world and in this industry. But equally, there are some of those who aren't. As I said before, that happens in every industry. It's always easy to cast a stone... but to have actually walked (or rode a bike in this case) a mile in their shoes might reveal a different motive. Might not. But I'd rather err on the side of just not picking up a rock in the first place... So one doesn't come hurling back in my direction.


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## reddognoyz (Jan 16, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Wed Jan 16 said:


> reddognoyz @ Tue Jan 15 said:
> 
> 
> > I've shared this personal view of pro athletes doping with my friends but I think it's fare to add it in here in a forum of my piers.
> ...




No I said "if I could take something" as in a performance enhancing drug. Not lie cheat steal etc.....

What kind of monster do you think I am!!!!!!!!?????? : ) 

I have been asked for a kickback before btw. Quite shocking. I demurred.


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## reddognoyz (Jan 16, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Jan 15 said:


> reddognoyz @ Wed Jan 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Guy Rowland @ Tue Jan 15 said:
> ...





okay I'm going to stick to musical commentary from now on. I sympathize with any athlete on an elite level who feels they have to dope in order to be competitive. that's not the same as condoning, I wouldn't vilify until you've walked a mile in those shoes( or ran a mile in, say 3:51)


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## NYC Composer (Jan 16, 2013)

reddognoyz @ Wed Jan 16 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Tue Jan 15 said:
> 
> 
> > reddognoyz @ Wed Jan 16 said:
> ...



Or felt the need to make $100 million dollars.

The point here is-at what price success? At what price winning?

Lance didn't need to "feed his family". He needed to win. At any cost. He did a lot of damage to a lot of people along the way. If success is the goal, and you perceive no obstacle as being too ethically challenging to stand in the way of your success, then you might as well join the Mafia or knock off a liquor store.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 16, 2013)

guydoingmusic @ Wed Jan 16 said:


> NYC Composer @ Wed Jan 16 said:
> 
> 
> > reddognoyz @ Tue Jan 15 said:
> ...



I was asked for kickbacks at least 10 times during my career in commercials, and I refused each time. Others I am aware of, though I never physically saw it happen, who willingly handed over envelopes of cash or expensive gifts-did quite well. Yes, that's a reality in the business. No, I won't agree or be a party to it. Does that qualify me as having "walked a mile in their shoes" and does it also qualify me to "cast stones"? I don't necessarily care what the answer is from someone else's perspective, but I know what I know. There are things that I think are okay and things I think aren't okay. I've done plenty of bad things in my life, but I don't cheat or steal.

"That's just reality" is a very, very slippery slope.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 16, 2013)

reddognoyz @ Wed Jan 16 said:


> I sympathize with any athlete on an elite level who feels they have to dope in order to be competitive. that's not the same as condoning, I wouldn't vilify until you've walked a mile in those shoes( or ran a mile in, say 3:51)



Larry has offered some excellent responses to this already. Read that statement by Nicole Cooke to see what its like work at an elite level with cheats all around you, to stand by your convictions, and not succumb to cheating yourself. Of course it is possible. In it cycling it was, I'll concede, INCREDIBLY difficult, but there are true heroes that won races and medals without cheating.

And Lance is part of the reason why it was so hard. He normalised it, he institutionalised it. He bulled others on his team - either do it this way or get out. Other teams felt that they had to follow or they weren't in the game. Succumbing to that mindset when you are a foot soldier is bad enough, but to be one of - if not THE - primary architect of the regieme is pretty unforgivable.

Larry said it well. Once you've adopted the view that winning is everything, regardless of how you do it, you become a monster. You ruin others lives as well as your own.

Lance is absolutely no hero, and anything he says tonight won't change that at all, no matter how sorry he claims to be, or who else he seeks to drag down with him as mitigation. We all wanted to support him, that incredible feat of defeating cancer in such an extraordinary way. We all want to applaud the money raised for charity. But if you do it in such a destructive way that it damn near wrecks the entire sport and the lives of hundreds of others on the way - nope. That respect and admiration have evaporated.

I sincerely hope he is personally fined an exorbitant sum of money. Apparently he is personally worth 100 million. I want to see the overwhelming majority of that taken from him in terms of fines and - better still - given to the charities he claimed to support.


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## guydoingmusic (Jan 17, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Wed Jan 16 said:


> guydoingmusic @ Wed Jan 16 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Wed Jan 16 said:
> ...



Your statement "I've done plenty of bad things in my life, but I don't cheat or steal." can be seen a quite a slippery slope. Someone could say..."I never beat my wife. I shook her and threatened to do it, but I didn't hit her." 

Wrong is wrong... We have all done something wrong... And just because you say you haven't cheated or stolen, by your own admission you have done things wrong. I, this is me personally, would NEVER bring it up to you. Because I have done the same as you. I have done some wrong things. So I would deserve the same accusations and treatment in return. 

I'm just saying in these situations that you have to be careful about jumping on the "Bash Lance Armstrong" type bandwagons. 

"Those who live by the sword, die by the sword." - Walt Disney (kidding of course)


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## NYC Composer (Jan 17, 2013)

guydoingmusic @ Thu Jan 17 said:


> NYC Composer @ Wed Jan 16 said:
> 
> 
> > guydoingmusic @ Wed Jan 16 said:
> ...



Sorry, I'm on the bandwagon. Your mileage may vary. Cheers.


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## guydoingmusic (Jan 17, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Thu Jan 17 said:


> guydoingmusic @ Thu Jan 17 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Wed Jan 16 said:
> ...



That's the beauty of it... we are all entitled to our opinion! o-[][]-o Beer's on me!


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 17, 2013)

This is fairly bizarre moral relativism. "Let he who has no sin cast the first stone" and all that, but does that mean that his behaviour, and the cataclysmic effect it has had on an entire sport, is just shrugged off? "Ah well, we've all done something a bit bad, let's just leave it be".

Lance was an extremely powerful man, in an extremely powerful position who cheated, bullied his teammates into doing the same, dragged down the entire sport, lied under oath about it for a decade, then successfully sued those who sought to tell the truth. As a result, he is now worth $100m. I hope he gets what's surely coming to him.


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## guydoingmusic (Jan 17, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Thu Jan 17 said:


> This is fairly bizarre moral relativism. "Let he who has no sin cast the first stone" and all that, but does that mean that his behaviour, and the cataclysmic effect it has had on an entire sport, is just shrugged off? "Ah well, we've all done something a bit bad, let's just leave it be".
> 
> Lance was an extremely powerful man, in an extremely powerful position who cheated, bullied his teammates into doing the same, dragged down the entire sport, lied under oath about it for a decade, then successfully sued those who sought to tell the truth. As a result, he is now worth $100m. I hope he gets what's surely coming to him.



Please don't hear me as taking up for him... yeah he screwed a lot up. Not only personally, but collaterally as well! I heard this morning on the radio that some are saying that Lance is just the tip of the iceberg. There are plenty of more doing it that just haven't been caught. 

Just my stance on things - I don't think people should take the "Just look the other way" approach. I personally don't like pointing out something someone did wrong and being the one to judge and say what he/she deserves. That's all I'm saying.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 17, 2013)

I'm curious to watch this interview. I don't have OWN, but it says free live streaming as well. So does anybody know where is this live streaming, or a link? Thanks!


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## NYC Composer (Jan 17, 2013)

http://www.oprah.com/own_tv/onc/lance-armstrong-one.html (http://www.oprah.com/own_tv/onc/lance-a ... g-one.html)


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 17, 2013)

thanks Larry.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 17, 2013)

De nada, compadre.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 17, 2013)

Well, I've only seen up to the first ad break so far. The big question I want answering now is:

Who made the decision to put Armstrong's mic under his ruddy shirt?!!!

2 1/2 hours of infuriating rustle. To all directors and producers - the audience knows microphones exist. Don't be afraid for us to see any, cos they tend to sound good when we do. Oh, and in interviews, a couple of mics on stands overhead out of shot works REALLY well.

Oh, the content - pretty much as expected I guess. Having loudly dismissed Hamilton, Landis et al's testimony as being "discredited sources", by his own logic we shouldn't really pay too much attention to any damage limitation.... they are "out of the lying business" too and it didn't matter to you then, Lance.


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## TheUnfinished (Jan 18, 2013)

I saw a few clips. Very calculated. The word "sociopath" kept popping into my head.

He's ruined. Or should be. And I'm still not convinced he's either sorry or genuinely thinks he's done anything wrong. The man is a brand. It was like watching a 'marketing department bot' not a penitent sinner.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 18, 2013)

TheUnfinished @ Fri Jan 18 said:


> I saw a few clips. Very calculated. The word "sociopath" kept popping into my head.
> 
> He's ruined. Or should be. And I'm still not convinced he's either sorry or genuinely thinks he's done anything wrong. The man is a brand. It was like watching a 'marketing department bot' not a penitent sinner.



Agree totally. A bullying character is another classic hallmark of the sociopath / psychopath.

William Fotherigham at the Guardian made a nice observation, on how he used the word "flawed" to describe himself:



> The f-word came up frequently: "I am flawed, deeply flawed." Suing people who had told the truth was "a major flaw", and so on.



Which of course makes me immediately invoke Godwin's law by describing Adolf Hitler at "deeply flawed".


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 19, 2013)

Seen part 2, and here's another unanswered question.. why did they put 80db of gain into their mics and push it through a slow release brickwall limiter?


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## NYC Composer (Jan 19, 2013)

TheUnfinished @ Fri Jan 18 said:


> I saw a few clips. Very calculated. The word "sociopath" kept popping into my head.
> 
> He's ruined. Or should be. And I'm still not convinced he's either sorry or genuinely thinks he's done anything wrong. The man is a brand. It was like watching a 'marketing department bot' not a penitent sinner.



Very apt description. There was something reptilian about him. Ii recently read a very brilliant and funny book called The Psychopath Test, i kept thinking he wouldn't pass it.

There was a section where he talked about his children and had to stop because he almost teared up- i had the alarming feeling that he was actually trying to tear up, but COULDN'T.


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## TheUnfinished (Jan 19, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Sat Jan 19 said:


> There was a section where he talked about his children and had to stop because he almost teared up- i had the alarming feeling that he was actually trying to tear up, but COULDN'T.


Indeed. Who knows, he might actually have cried if he wasn't concentrating so hard on 'trying' to cry...


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 19, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Sat Jan 19 said:


> i had the alarming feeling that he was actually trying to tear up, but COULDN'T.



Ooh that's a great observation. Spot on.

Psychopathy has been a long-standing fascination of mine... he does certainly fit the profile.


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## MA-Simon (Jan 21, 2013)

Just found this:
http://9gag.com/gag/6379192


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## guydoingmusic (Jan 21, 2013)

I bet Lance would be willing to give his left testicle to go back and not have all this come out! Oh wait...


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## snowleopard (Jan 23, 2013)

LOL!

I find myself agreeing with Unfinished. 

A friend of mine has a brother who's a real manipulator and cunning bully and has been in and out of jail, had restraining orders against him, etc. but still doesn't see that he's done anything wrong. My friend has read quite a bit about his behavior and came across a phrase akin to the psychopath test that fit the brother: "A psychopath always views himself as being the hero." No wonder why guilt and recompense is so difficult to even fake.


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