# Putting a Very Dry Violin in its Space



## robgb (Apr 10, 2018)

Trying to get a very dry violin into a good space using a combination of small rooms and plate reverb. Any thoughts?

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/violin-test-mp3.12806/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## robgb (Apr 10, 2018)

Some minor adjustments, added EMI ribbon microphone IR and room tone. Also included cello.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/violin-and-cello-test-mp3.12808/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## JohnG (Apr 10, 2018)

Hi Rob,

It sounds quite good, but I still feel I'm standing no more than 10 feet away from the violin. If you don't mind the "proximity alert," it sounds very nice -- exceptionally nice, actually. The cello is not quite as convincing.

Kind regards,

John


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## robgb (Apr 10, 2018)

JohnG said:


> Hi Rob,
> 
> It sounds quite good, but I still feel I'm standing no more than 10 feet away from the violin. If you don't mind the "proximity alert," it sounds very nice -- exceptionally nice, actually. The cello is not quite as convincing.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback. Yes, the ten feet away sounds about right for what I was going for. Just trying to get it in a more natural sounding state than what it sounds like out of the box.


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## JohnG (Apr 10, 2018)

In that case, I think the violin sounds exceptionally musical and pleasant.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Apr 10, 2018)

Sorry that I am not as enthusiastic about the sound as the previous speaker.
Presumably the violin was not recorded so "dry". Either I hear the recording room (uncomfortable) or it is the chosen "small room" which fits not very good. If possible, please post the dry result.
Could also be that the dry recording contains unpleasant resonances. This happens, for example, when violins are recorded in living rooms and the microphone has been between the (too close) ceiling and the violin... Or generally when violins (cellos) are recorded in living rooms.
The Cello does not sound better (cheesy and boxy...) Livingroom-Recording? 

I'm looking forward to the dry version.
Beat


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## ludini (Apr 10, 2018)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> Sorry that I am not as enthusiastic about the sound as the previous speaker.
> Presumably the violin was not recorded so "dry". Either I hear the recording room (uncomfortable) or it is the chosen "small room" which fits not very good. If possible, please post the dry result.
> Could also be that the dry recording contains unpleasant resonances. This happens, for example, when violins are recorded in living rooms and the microphone has been between the (too close) ceiling and the violin... Or generally when violins (cellos) are recorded in living rooms.
> The Cello does not sound better (cheesy and boxy...) Livingroom-Recording?
> ...


In my opinion, these aren't livingroom-recordings.
While the violin sounds very convincing to me, the cello gives the manufacturer away. 
Rob, this "room" that you've created sounds quite good already. One thing you could try is to add some distortion on the reverb bus (before the reverb plugin). That could give you some extra warmth without altering the original signal to much. This does not work in every case, but is always worth a try.
Best,
Ludi


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## robgb (Apr 10, 2018)

ludini said:


> One thing you could try is to add some distortion on the reverb bus (before the reverb plugin)


Nice idea. Distortion or maybe saturation?


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## robgb (Apr 10, 2018)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> I'm looking forward to the dry version.


Sure. If I get time tomorrow I'll post it.


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## ludini (Apr 11, 2018)

robgb said:


> Nice idea. Distortion or maybe saturation?


Oops, I meant saturation, sorry! Real distortion probably wouldn't make it sound very realistic (but it could be interesting  ).
If you own something like Fabfilter Saturn (i.e. a multiband-saturation/distortion plugin), that'd be the perfect choice for this.


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## dgburns (Apr 11, 2018)

Sounds fine to me.

The hardest part, if not impossible, is to make a close mic sound like a far mic. I’ve had best results with Flux Spat. Problem is you can’t fake those early reflections where the instrument blooms out into the room. I’ve tried mic’ing from farther away, but if the room sounds bad...

What you end up getting is a close mic recording with some stuff put on it to make it sound farther away. My brain says to me, this is a recording with a close mic and either some other mic’s further away, or reverb added. Not that THAT is a bad thing.

One thing I’m going to try is to put an overdrive or saturation right on the close mic and see if I can’t lose some of that up close detail before trying to put it into a room. Maybe impulse reverb first fully wet using a med studio type room with no tail, then some kind of algo tail, but not too long, like around 2sec or under. Too long a tail gives me the impression I’m in a bigger room then the close sound implies.

But I have no issues with your recording (on my ipad)


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## robgb (Apr 11, 2018)

dgburns said:


> I’ve had best results with Flux Spat.


Yikes. Quite a price tag on that piece of software.


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## robgb (Apr 11, 2018)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> I'm looking forward to the dry version.



Here's the violin naked:

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/violin-naked-mp3.12825/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## aaronventure (Apr 11, 2018)

Here's a very quick take with the violin slightly to the left.

Man, the EL8 is super nice. Also some SPAT.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/robgb-mp3.12827/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## robgb (Apr 11, 2018)

aaronventure said:


> Here's a very quick take with the violin slightly to the left.
> 
> Man, the EL-8 is super nice. Also some SPAT.



Sounds GREAT to my ears. Much more reverb than I prefer (I like the scoring stage sound), but very, very nice.


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## aaronventure (Apr 11, 2018)

robgb said:


> Sounds GREAT to my ears. Much more reverb than I prefer (I like the scoring stage sound), but very, very nice.



That's an easy fix.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/robgb2-mp3.12829/][/AUDIOPLUS]

When you add more stuff on top it won't be so obvious. I'd personally go somewhere between the two.


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## dgburns (Apr 11, 2018)

robgb said:


> Yikes. Quite a price tag on that piece of software.



Yes, I admit I have not gotten the new version. There doesn't seem to be anything else on the market - that I have tried - that can 'push' a source back in distance separately from adding too much tail. Def on the shopping list, especially if you want to work in surround.


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## robgb (Apr 11, 2018)

Here's another try using about 150ms of delay, some convo hall sound and a tiny bit of Little Plate, with Panagement doing the placement. No idea if it sounds any better than before.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/violin-take-2-mp3.12834/][/AUDIOPLUS]

P.S. If I hear this tune one more time I may shoot myself.


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## aaronventure (Apr 11, 2018)

robgb said:


> Here's another try using about 150ms of delay, some convo hall sound and a tiny bit of Little Plate, with Panagement doing the placement. No idea if it sounds any better than before.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/violin-take-2-mp3.12834/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> P.S. If I hear this tune one more time I may shoot myself.



Do you have an IR reverb? I think that may help. The problem is that is sounds thin.


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## robgb (Apr 11, 2018)

aaronventure said:


> Do you have an IR reverb? I think that may help. The problem is that is sounds thin.


I'm using IR on that. Berliner Hall. And thin is a problem with me since my ears are shot after years of abuse.


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## aaronventure (Apr 11, 2018)

Huh. Increase it in volume? Also, is panagement rolling off your highs? I don't think that's necessary for such an exposed upfront mix. What I like to hear in such settings are the details, but also the hall.

Another thing you could also try is a faux M/S mix. Duplicate your track (or send it to another track) and drop a close mic IR on one, and a almost-completely-wet IR that's a bit further away (don't know of any real M/S impulse responses, I'll have to make some myself). Now take that second wet signal and send it pre-fader to yet another track. You now have two "hall sound" tracks. Pan one hard left, other one hard right. Invert phase on the second one. You're now hearing two completely different audio sources from each speaker/channel (if you fold these two to mono, you'll get silence). Mix in the first "close" mic.

This is one of my favorite techniques for solo instruments. Of course, this is a faux way of doing it, recorded live it sounds fantastic, but even the faux method can work as it has its own sound. It sounds kind of like "everywhere, but nowhere".

Here it is, dead middle.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/robgbms-mp3.12835/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## robgb (Apr 11, 2018)

aaronventure said:


> Huh. Increase it in volume? Also, is panagement rolling off your highs? I don't think that's necessary for such an exposed upfront mix. What I like to hear in such settings are the details, but also the hall.
> 
> Another thing you could also try is a faux M/S mix. Duplicate your track (or send it to another track) and drop a close mic IR on one, and a almost-completely-wet IR that's a bit further away (don't know of any real M/S impulse responses, I'll have to make some myself). Now take that second wet signal and send it pre-fader to yet another track. You now have to "hall sound" tracks. Pan one hard left, other one hard right. Invert phase on whichever. You're now hearing two completely different audio sources from each speaker/channel. If you fold these two to mono, you get silence. Mix in the first "close" mic.
> 
> ...


I like this a lot....


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## Beat Kaufmann (Apr 12, 2018)

As I suspected: poor recording location, insufficient microphone, ... = poor starting material.
The question is now, what exactly do you want for a room, how far away should the instrument sound, how big should the room be

It is impossible to bring a livingroom sound into a larger room sound.
If you want to do that, the sound should be free from resonances, echoes and other noise.
Still, I tried to achieve something.

Original
Violin_orig.mp3

-Noise, - Resonances, + some Exiter (higher harmonics)
Violin_bearb.mp3

Only with Tail*
Violin_only_Tail.mp3

Only with ER*
Violin_only_ER.mp3

Violin with ER + Tail*
Violin_ER+Algo.mp3​
_* done with Breeze2_

A natural violin sound, if possible a natural "colorless" reverb... will lead to a natural space.
Unfortunately, many convolution reverbs are are coloring the sound. Distortion in the Reverb and such things are not usefull here. This can be good if you want to "silver" the reverb, for example, in light music (voices). Here the violin itself lacks the necessary silver in the sound (use better microphones).

Have fun
Beat


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## robgb (Apr 12, 2018)

Nice tests, thanks. 


Beat Kaufmann said:


> This can be good if you want to "silver" the reverb, for example, in light music (voices). Here the violin itself lacks the necessary silver in the sound (use better microphones).


I think the reason you're looking for a better microphone is because no Mic was used at all. It's a modeled violin.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Apr 12, 2018)

Original
Violin_orig.mp3 
Why then such a huge rumble and noise?


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## pipedr (Jul 7, 2018)

robgb said:


> Nice tests, thanks.
> 
> I think the reason you're looking for a better microphone is because no Mic was used at all. It's a modeled violin.



How did you get the "scratchy" attack on the violin notes? I had the SWAM demo and tried to get it to do that with bow pressure, but was not successful.


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## Divico (Jul 8, 2018)

robgb said:


> small rooms and plate reverb.


I guess you know Alan Meyersons approach to this?
If not:


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## robgb (Jul 8, 2018)

pipedr said:


> How did you get the "scratchy" attack on the violin notes? I had the SWAM demo and tried to get it to do that with bow pressure, but was not successful.


I put bow pressure on CC1 and adjusted the range. I also upped the Strings Res. to 60 and the Brightness to 63. A lot of experimentation that I'm still working on. Learning SWAM is almost like learning a real instrument. Trial and error.


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## pipedr (Jul 8, 2018)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> As I suspected: poor recording location, insufficient microphone, ... = poor starting material.
> The question is now, what exactly do you want for a room, how far away should the instrument sound, how big should the room be
> 
> It is impossible to bring a livingroom sound into a larger room sound.
> ...



I like what you did with this, and Breeze2 is an affordable option. Care to share your settings? I downloaded the demo today, but can't figure out how to separate ER from tails....

Also, is there anything wrong with putting it through Ocean Way Studios and a plate reverb, like this:?

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ocean-way-and-breeze-plate-mp3.14340/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ocean-way-and-emt-140-mp3.14341/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Virtuoso (Jul 9, 2018)

Ok - I'll play! 

1 - Ocean Way plus Exponential Audio Symphony
2 - Ocean Way plus Exponential Audio Nimbus
3 - Ocean Way plus LiquidSonics Seventh Heaven

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/violin_symphony-mp3.14342/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/violin_nimbus-mp3.14343/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/violin_7th_heaven-mp3.14344/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Garry (Jul 9, 2018)

Virtuoso said:


> Ok - I'll play!
> 
> 1 - Ocean Way plus Exponential Audio Symphony
> 2 - Ocean Way plus Exponential Audio Nimbus
> ...



Interesting thread.

Thanks for providing these Virtuoso - I think all 3 sound great, but what I find intriguing by your comparisons, is that they range from $69 (LiquidSonics Seventh Heaven) to $199 (Exponential Audio Nimbus) up to an eye-watering $499 (Exponential Audio Symphony). I honestly was not able to tell the difference between any of them (just me?), and indeed, when I bring Rob's file into Logic, and put the 'free' (free when you have Logic) new Chromaverb on it, it sounds equally good.

So, either:

there really is a difference and my ears are shot, and I just don't hear the difference everyone else does, in which case, lucky me, since I only tend to listen with my ears!
my equipment is lousy (sound card: Komplete Audio 6, speakers: Yamaha HS8) - possibly, but if so, then given that just the relevant parts of my studio that would impact this cost $1,000 (HS8s 349 each, sound card 299), it's a reasonably high bar to hear the difference, and there will be many people, with similar equipment or less, that will also not hear it
the emperor has no clothes, and the difference between these reverbs is not justified by the difference in cost (see Christian Henson's recent reverb shootout for support that this might indeed be the explanation!).
Which is it likely to be? Are there other explanations?


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## MarcelM (Jul 9, 2018)

Garry said:


> Interesting thread.
> 
> Thanks for providing these Virtuoso - I think all 3 sound great, but what I find intriguing by your comparisons, is that they range from $69 (LiquidSonics Seventh Heaven) to $199 (Exponential Audio Nimbus) up to an eye-watering $499 (Exponential Audio Symphony). I honestly was not able to tell the difference between any of them (just me?), and indeed, when I bring Rob's file into Logic, and put the 'free' (free when you have Logic) new Chromaverb on it, it sounds equally good.
> 
> ...



differences are indeed pretty small, but you can absolutely hear them. i only listened to the pieces now with headphone and my build in laptop soundcard and could always tell a difference.

if you really dont hear that good you might visit a doctor and make some tests. i for example suffer under med. allergic asthma and have to take some sprays from time to time. it turned out i got infected with a candida fungus (those spays can lead to that) and didnt know for quite some time. whatever, once it was found and i made a therapy i could even hear really ALOT better. so this candida fungus even had bad influence on my hearing. dont have any other explanation.

during that time i bought quite alot of different equipment and could almost always never hear a huge difference, but nowadays its so much better.

might be not the right thread to talk about this, but its just an advice and i was so lost for quite some and thought ears got worse due to my age (45).


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## Garry (Jul 9, 2018)

Hmm.. interesting diagnosis, but... no meds, no illness (that I know of, but I guess that could apply to us all), and I'm not old enough for age-related decline to be a major factor. I'm not sure this is the most parsimonious explanation. 

I just listened again (I'm specifically talking here about the 3 examples from Virtuoso, not the difference between wet & dry), this time through headphones (DT 770 pro), rather than monitors. You mentioned that you find the differences subtle: I hesitate to suggest a blinded shootout (they're too much work/effort to organise, believe me!), but I honestly doubt whether people would be able to consistently pick these out under such conditions. I'll probably await the outcome of that before presenting myself to the audiologist!


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## MarcelM (Jul 9, 2018)

Garry said:


> Hmm.. interesting diagnosis, but... no meds, no illness (that I know of, but I guess that could apply to us all), and I'm not old enough for age-related decline to be a major factor. I'm not sure this is the most parsimonious explanation.
> 
> I just listened again (I'm specifically talking here about the 3 examples from Virtuoso, not the difference between wet & dry), this time through headphones (DT 770 pro), rather than monitors. You mentioned that you find the differences subtle: I hesitate to suggest a blinded shootout (they're too much work/effort to organise, believe me!), but I honestly doubt whether people would be able to consistently pick these out under such conditions. I'll probably await the outcome of that before presenting myself to the audiologist!



i didnt know aswell when i had that candida fungus, and was really worried. i knew something was wrong and my equip couldnt sound that bad.

you can tell differences between reverbs in blind shoot outs. it has been done very often before. i mean a bricasti m7 will sound better than liquidsonics 7th heaven for example, but does it sound worth 5k$ better? sure, for some yes and for some not.

i heard a difference in all 3 examples between (virtuoso).

that said, iam using breeze 2 now as my main verb and wont invest in a hardware bricasti for sure 

@Beat Kaufmann iam also really interested how you seperated ER/Tail with breeze 2, since the developer told me you cannot really disable ER/Tail in breeze 2. he also posted some workarounds though.


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## Garry (Jul 9, 2018)

I didn't say it sounds bad, I said they all sound equally good! I'm not sure your explanation fits here.

Also, I didn't say you couldn't tell the difference in blind shoot outs, just that they don't go as you might expect (I said I couldn't tell the difference in Virtuoso's unblinded specific 3 reverbs, which differ substantially in cost).

If I'd paid for the Bricasti, I'd want it to win every time, and it didn't in the blindshoot I mentioned, so either Christian Henson and Jake Jackson also have candida fungus, or we can be misled by marketing. My bet is the latter


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## Garry (Jul 9, 2018)

They're all just myopic, glaucoma perhaps?!! 






Or perhaps the Emperor has no clothes?


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## MarcelM (Jul 9, 2018)

Garry said:


> I didn't say it sounds bad, I said they all sound equally good! I'm not sure your explanation fits here.
> 
> Also, I didn't say you couldn't tell the difference in blind shoot outs, just that they don't go as you might expect (I said I couldn't tell the difference in Virtuoso's unblinded specific 3 reverbs, which differ substantially in cost).
> 
> If I'd paid for the Bricasti, I'd want it to win every time, and it didn't in the blindshoot I mentioned, so either Christian Henson and Jake Jackson also have candida fungus, or we can be mislead by marketing. My bet is the latter




hehe, yah i get what you are saying.

sorry, i didnt mean that you said it sounds bad. 

we are mislead by marketing for sure alot, and also cheaper reverb plugins can sound very very good. maybe a bit different than the most expensive onces but thats all.

seventh heaven between gets really really close to the real thing, and the small version is usually enough for most people.


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## Virtuoso (Jul 9, 2018)

Garry said:


> I honestly was not able to tell the difference between any of them (just me?)


The point of the exercise was to get the dry violin to sit back in a natural acoustic space. I picked those 3 as they are probably the most convincing natural reverbs that I use - and they were deliberately dialed in to be pretty close (ie a classical hall acoustic). Trust me, you can make those 3 reverbs sound dramatically different to each other if you are so inclined!

Some things to listen for are:- how well does the reverb bind to the raw/naked sound? (less sophisticated reverbs tend to sound 'tacked on'). How convincing is the front to back depth? Any artifacts, resonances or ringing? Any tonal coloration to the main sound?


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## robgb (Jul 9, 2018)

Garry said:


> the emperor has no clothes, and the difference between these reverbs is not justified by the difference in cost


I tend to go with this one. I use the free Little Plate reverb, Hornet's dirt cheap Spaces, and Reaper's built in ReaVerb, which is a convolution reverb host. And there are a ton of free IRs out there that sound fantastic. Certainly there are differences between reverbs, but it really comes down to taste more than quality in most cases (although some reverbs—price notwithstanding—do sound better than others). But the psychological effect of high prices will usually win every time.


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## Garry (Jul 9, 2018)

Virtuoso said:


> The point of the exercise was to get the dry violin to sit back in a natural acoustic space. I picked those 3 as they are probably the most convincing natural reverbs that I use - and they were deliberately dialed in to be pretty close (ie a classical hall acoustic). Trust me, you can make those 3 reverbs sound dramatically different to each other if you are so inclined!
> 
> Some things to listen for are:- how well does the reverb bind to the raw/naked sound? (less sophisticated reverbs tend to sound 'tacked on'). How convincing is the front to back depth? Any artifacts, resonances or ringing? Any tonal coloration to the main sound?


Ok, that makes more sense. You hadn't mentioned that you had tried to get them to be pretty close, so I had assumed that like Christian and Jake, you simply tried to optimise the sound for each reverb for that setting (classical hall).


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## Garry (Jul 9, 2018)

robgb said:


> I tend to go with this one. I use the free Little Plate reverb, Hornet's dirt cheap Spaces, and Reaper's built in ReaVerb, which is a convolution reverb host. And there are a ton of free IRs out there that sound fantastic. Certainly there are differences between reverbs, but it really comes down to taste more than quality in most cases (although some reverbs—price notwithstanding—do sound better than others). But the psychological effect of high prices will usually win every time.


Yes, this is my suspicion too! 

Did the free Little Plate become not so free? $99 from Soundtoys here, or am I looking at the wrong thing?


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## robgb (Jul 9, 2018)

I also add that with reverb it comes down to how you use it.


Garry said:


> Did the free Little Plate become not so free? $99 from Soundtoys here, or am I looking at the wrong thing?


That's the one. They gave it away for free when it first came out. I didn't realize they were charging now. GREAT little plugin.


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## pipedr (Jul 9, 2018)

robgb said:


> I tend to go with this one. I use the free Little Plate reverb, Hornet's dirt cheap Spaces, and Reaper's built in ReaVerb, which is a convolution reverb host. And there are a ton of free IRs out there that sound fantastic. Certainly there are differences between reverbs, but it really comes down to taste more than quality in most cases (although some reverbs—price notwithstanding—do sound better than others). But the psychological effect of high prices will usually win every time.



I'm no mixing engineer, but these all sound pretty good to me--different in subtle ways, so good, but not the same. However, IMHO not the same as if recorded in a real hall, so I suppose Beat Kaufmann's contention that you can't record in a living room (or in this case a virtual sound source) and make it sound like it was recorded in a concert hall still holds true despite convolution reverbs and the expensive algorithmic reverbs and the like.

So, robgb, what was the context? Would you like to post your final mix and tell us your thoughts on what you did and what worked?



Virtuoso said:


> The point of the exercise was to get the dry violin to sit back in a natural acoustic space. I picked those 3 as they are probably the most convincing natural reverbs that I use - and they were deliberately dialed in to be pretty close (ie a classical hall acoustic). Trust me, you can make those 3 reverbs sound dramatically different to each other if you are so inclined!



Virtuoso, how did you use Ocean Way, and how did you combine with the reverbs?

For mine, I just selected the Strings studio A preset, and used a combination of the near mid and far mics, and then used plate presets and mixed in dry and wet. I used the plate because it looked like in Breeze that it had the fewest early reflections, but not sure if that is appropriate use of that reverb. I had tried a concert hall in Logic's Space Designer, but couldn't figure out how to suppress the ER.


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## robgb (Jul 9, 2018)

pipedr said:


> So, robgb, what was the context? Would you like to post your final mix and tell us your thoughts on what you did and what worked?


No real context. I was just experimenting. Have learned much thanks to this thread and my own experimentations. My final goal is not necessarily to make the violin sound as if it was recorded in concert hall. I really couldn't care less about any of that. I simply want it to sound good, and within the space of a recording it probably would.

I know that Bernard Herrmann would constantly experiment in the mixing stage, making instruments much louder than they would be in a concert hall to give them emphasis and better sculpt the music, and that's really all this exercise was about. Making a bone dry violin sound a little more alive and vibrant. A lot of it comes down to playing, as well, which is an ongoing refinement process.


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## Virtuoso (Jul 9, 2018)

pipedr said:


> Virtuoso, how did you use Ocean Way, and how did you combine with the reverbs?



I only spent a couple of minutes on it, just out of curiosity. I first used a little EQ to take out some of the presence, which helps the instrument recede (I also used a steep low cut at 150Hz to remove that rumble). Then Ocean Way A/Strings, using only the far mic set to 23ft. I absolutely LOVE that plugin - I don't know of any native equivalent and I couldn't live without it.

I set Symphony and 7th Heaven reverb to around 2.1s and 18% wet. Nimbus is very transparent, so I went a little longer and higher. Should have tweaked it a bit more really - listening back there's too much high end.


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## hdsmile (Jul 9, 2018)

@Virtuoso 
you have used only the "Ocean Way Studios" or ocean way microphone collection also?


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