# Spitfire Westworld competition



## redlester

Just seen this pop up on Twitter... a chance to win the Everything Collection...

https://www.spitfireaudio.com/westworld


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## Eptesicus

Definitely going to do this

Looks like fun


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## Geocranium

I know a lot of people here are hobbyists or want to do this as a bit of fun which is fine, but I think this competition is technically a "crowdsourcing" effort, which doesn't really sit right with me. Crowdsourcing competitions IMO have had a net negative effect on creative industries, and I wouldn't recommend professionals get involved. Again, if you're doing it for a bit of fun, I say have at it.

Everyone entering should just know that it states in the terms and conditions: _"By entering the Competition, you hereby grant the Competition Entities the right to use your name, likeness, and entry in connection with the Competition and for any related advertising and promotion." _I interpreted this as every entry in this competition is free to be used by HBO's marketing, so they're getting a pretty good deal out of this competition with hundreds of applicants. If that doesn't bother you, then by all means don't let it stop you.

Edit: If none of the entries are used outside the competition, and this is just a fun community event, then I really have no issue with this. The only thing that concerns me is if this is a roundabout way for HBO to get a huge library of Westworld-like compositions while only paying out 6 winners.


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## Allen Constantine

Geocranium said:


> I know a lot of people here are hobbyists or want to do this as a bit of fun which is fine, but I think this competition is technically a "crowdsourcing" effort, which doesn't really sit right with me. Crowdsourcing competitions IMO have had a net negative effect on creative industries, and I wouldn't recommend professionals get involved. Again, if you're doing it for a bit of fun, I say have at it.
> 
> Everyone entering should just know that it states in the terms and conditions: _"By entering the Competition, you hereby grant the Competition Entities the right to use your name, likeness, and entry in connection with the Competition and for any related advertising and promotion." _Basically every entry in this competition is free to be used by HBO's marketing, so they're getting a pretty good deal out of this competition with hundreds of applicants. If that doesn't bother you, then by all means don't let it stop you.



Well said!


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## ALittleNightMusic

Geocranium said:


> I know a lot of people here are hobbyists or want to do this as a bit of fun which is fine, but I think this competition is technically a "crowdsourcing" effort, which doesn't really sit right with me. Crowdsourcing competitions IMO have had a net negative effect on creative industries, and I wouldn't recommend professionals get involved. Again, if you're doing it for a bit of fun, I say have at it.
> 
> Everyone entering should just know that it states in the terms and conditions: _"By entering the Competition, you hereby grant the Competition Entities the right to use your name, likeness, and entry in connection with the Competition and for any related advertising and promotion." _Basically every entry in this competition is free to be used by HBO's marketing, so they're getting a pretty good deal out of this competition with hundreds of applicants. If that doesn't bother you, then by all means don't let it stop you.



If you think HBO plans to use random entries as "free" music for themselves, I think you don't understand how public relations works. That would be a nightmare for them and Spitfire. If you're a professional composer, this is a great opportunity to get your work heard by the Westworld folks. This is a connections-based industry after all.


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## Geocranium

ALittleNightMusic said:


> If you think HBO plans to use random entries as "free" music for themselves, I think you don't understand how public relations works. That would be a nightmare for them and Spitfire.



I'm not sure what you mean by this. Is this not the whole purpose of crowdsourcing competitions? You pay out winners with the prize, but you are also entitled to all of the entries? 



ALittleNightMusic said:


> If you're a professional composer, this is a great opportunity to get your work heard by the Westworld folks.



This to me just sounds like a repackaging of, "if you do this task for us we won't pay you in money, but will instead pay you in exposure, which is just as valuable." I'm also not keen on "spec work" (which is exactly what you're describing), as I think that too is something that harms creative industries.

I'm not interested in the competition because I would rather create music for my own amusement, or for a gig I knew for sure I was getting a payout for. Again, if you want to enter have at it, but most professionals I know would steer clear of a spec-work competition.


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## GNP

Geocranium said:


> I know a lot of people here are hobbyists or want to do this as a bit of fun which is fine, but I think this competition is technically a "crowdsourcing" effort, which doesn't really sit right with me. Crowdsourcing competitions IMO have had a net negative effect on creative industries, and I wouldn't recommend professionals get involved. Again, if you're doing it for a bit of fun, I say have at it.
> 
> Everyone entering should just know that it states in the terms and conditions: _"By entering the Competition, you hereby grant the Competition Entities the right to use your name, likeness, and entry in connection with the Competition and for any related advertising and promotion." _Basically every entry in this competition is free to be used by HBO's marketing, so they're getting a pretty good deal out of this competition with hundreds of applicants. If that doesn't bother you, then by all means don't let it stop you.



As they say, the best 'winner of a competition' isn't one who's "competing to score just one scene' - it's the one who got the ACTUAL job. 

I won't be submitting anything to Spitfire, but I need something to work with for this quarantine craze...still, thank you SF.


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## Nate Johnson

Good lord you guys, its just a single piece of music you’re ‘giving away,’ in the spirit of competition. Not to mention if you do a great job you get something out of it and they’re donating to charity.

I have no idea what I’d submit, but maybe I’ll give it a whirl anyways!


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## NoamL

??? The winner gets a prize worth upwards of $10,000 and the five runners up get a prize worth $1700. Altogether nearly $20k in prizes and a chance to get your music heard by a major composer. Pretty amazing deal if all we are "giving away" is the chance for Spitfire to make a couple of marketing / Composer's Crib videos with Ramin. Almost zero chance the music people submit will be used for any other purpose (including by HBO in any capacity) just like the Bleeding Fingers competition from a few years ago. If I didn't have a busy schedule / already have SSO I'd leap at this! Good luck to all the contestants.


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## Consona

Guys, do you think using muted brass, xylophone and some semblance of musical knowledge will thwart all my chances of winning libraries I don't want? 

And do yourself a favor and download the TX file. I burst into laughter getting that highly anticipated in vogue so much sought after low chugga chugga synth/noise pad sound right in the first second of the clip, followed by those mandatory huge drum hits and electronic braaams. Jeeebus christ, when has all this futuristic stuff scoring become such a fricking farce?

And since this is a "connections-based industry" and I crapped on Abrams' abilities to recognize any musical qualities on several places by now, I think I'm out of the picture already.


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## Geocranium

NoamL said:


> ??? The winner gets a prize worth upwards of $10,000 and the five runners up get a prize worth $1700. Altogether nearly $20k in prizes and a chance to get your music heard by a major composer. Pretty amazing deal if all we are "giving away" is the chance for Spitfire to make a couple of marketing / Composer's Crib videos with Ramin. Almost zero chance the music people submit will be used for any other purpose (including by HBO in any capacity) just like the Bleeding Fingers competition from a few years ago. If I didn't have a busy schedule / already have SSO I'd leap at this! Good luck to all the contestants.



It's not really so much the specifics of the competition, it's the principle of how it's framed. They could offer the winner $5 million and a lifetime supply of booze, I would still think of it the same, because at the end of the day only the winners are being compensated for their labor. If this is all done as a friendly competition between composers then that's fine, but my suspicions are that this is just like any other crowdsource competition: the ultimate goal here is to collect the labor of many musicians and only pay 6. It's a business decision framed as a friendly community event. 

I'm just very defensive when it comes to things like how labor is handled in creative fields, as workers like musicians seem to be very easily exploited. 

At the end of the day, THIS competition is probably not a very big deal. The winners will go home happy, there won't be hurt feelings from the losers. I'm making it clear that I do not like the *principle* of doing spec work, even if it's for your favorite sample library developer. Spec work competitions like these are rampant throughout creative industries like design, illustration, music, and film, and I think they only make it worse for the workers in these fields.


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## jcrosby

Sure, it probably is crowdsourcing and/or marketing campaign. Brands like this don't sponsor something like this strictly for charity. Taking a crack at this would be fun. Not to mention that if this did make it into a promo it would be quite a nice showreel highlight...

Everyone's going to have their own perspective on this, I think it's an opportunity for a little fun.


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## GNP

NoamL said:


> ??? The winner gets a prize worth upwards of $10,000 and the five runners up get a prize worth $1700. Altogether nearly $20k in prizes and a chance to get your music heard by a major composer. Pretty amazing deal if all we are "giving away" is the chance for Spitfire to make a couple of marketing / Composer's Crib videos with Ramin. Almost zero chance the music people submit will be used for any other purpose (including by HBO in any capacity) just like the Bleeding Fingers competition from a few years ago. If I didn't have a busy schedule / already have SSO I'd leap at this! Good luck to all the contestants.



Ohhhh pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaase.


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## Guffy

For those of you who watched season 3 already, how much of a spoiler is this clip?
Might just have to binge season 3 first..


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## CT

Oh, interesting. Maybe I'll do it.

Sorry, that's all I've got. No suspicious musings or quips about how much more I know than those dumb modern composers to contribute to the thread.


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## NoamL

With respect Geo, either you don't understand this competition or I don't. You used the words "crowdsourcing" and "spec work," this competition is not as far as I understand either of those things, because the episode has already aired, Ramin already scored it, HBO is not looking for actual score, and any random track that people submit that is timed to the hit points of this chase scene would be unlikely to _function as score_ for some other project they're doing.


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## jcrosby

Guffy said:


> For those of you who watched season 3 already, how much of a spoiler is this clip?
> Might just have to binge season 3 first..


Haven't watched the clip yet. It's a 10 gig download and only 1/4 of the way done. Either way, if you're a fan of the show I'd watch the season 1st. (Love the show myself, quite like this season...)


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## Geocranium

NoamL said:


> With respect Geo, I think you're just not understanding what this is about. You used the words "crowdsourcing" and "spec work," this competition is not either of those things, because the episode has already aired, Ramin already scored it, HBO is not looking for actual score, and any random track that people submit that is timed to the hit points of this chase scene would be unlikely to _function as score_ for some other project they're doing.



Maybe I am misunderstanding. The thing that raised my suspicions was the line in the the legal page about how they own all entries to the competition. This just looked like a classic case of a spec work based competition, of which you can search online and find that a lot of people have some pretty nasty opinions about. I assumed it was to crowdsource a library of Westworld-style compositions that they could edit for promotional material.


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## RonOrchComp

NoamL said:


> ??? The winner gets a prize worth upwards of $10,000 and the five runners up get a prize worth $1700.



Yeah - no, that's not what it says.

_One talented winner will receive a Spitfire Audio Everything Drive consisting of over 70 products – 2.5 terabytes of sounds, worth over $20,000 when bought separately. The winner will also receive a prop from the set of Westworld and a signed Westworld vinyl. HBO will also make a donation on behalf of the winner to help fight the spread of COVID-19

Five runners-up will each receive a copy of our flagship orchestra – Spitfire Symphony Orchestra._

- Direct Quote from the SFA site. Unless I am missing something?

I am with Geo here. If it is said that,_ "if you do not win, you can take your music, do anything you want with it, and the Competition Entities will not use your name, likeness, and entry in connection with the Competition and for any related advertising and promotion." _

- then I would have no issue.

Also, the _showcase your work to the best in the business_ is just bogus fluff, because if you do not win, nobody is going to say - _hey! let's hire this guy!_ In fact, even if you do win_, _nobody is going to say -_ hey! let's hire this guy! _That's not the way things work in the real world.


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## bryla

You agree to them use your name and music in connection with the competition and in related advertising. It does not in any way mean that HBO can use the music for the next season.

“By entering the Competition, you hereby grant the Competition Entities the right to use your name, likeness, and entry in connection with the Competition and for any related advertising and promotion.”

Connection and related are key words.


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## josephwmorgan

Guffy said:


> For those of you who watched season 3 already, how much of a spoiler is this clip?
> Might just have to binge season 3 first..



I would avoid until you catch up


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## JohnG

I don't see anything concerning or nefarious. I don't have time to do it but have fun!


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## josephwmorgan

NoamL said:


> With respect Geo, either you don't understand this competition or I don't. You used the words "crowdsourcing" and "spec work," this competition is not as far as I understand either of those things, because the episode has already aired, Ramin already scored it, HBO is not looking for actual score, and any random track that people submit that is timed to the hit points of this chase scene would be unlikely to _function as score_ for some other project they're doing.



agreed! This is only a positive for the community. this episode aired a few weeks ago, it seems incredibly unlikely HBO has any interest in using the music of amateur composers for anything outside of promoting a competition they put together for fun. I absolutely agree composers shouldn’t be doing spec work for free, but this feels much more like spitfire and hbo offering a premium clip for upcoming composers to practice writing to picture while offering a huge upside for those works they feel outrank the rest ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Sunny Schramm

I´m thankful just for the video-files without music - its hard to find real movie scenes to work and train on. would be cool if the studios would give us some footage from time to time...


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## Technostica

Sunny Schramm said:


> I´m thankful just for the video-files without music - its hard to find real movie scenes to work and train on. would be cool if the studios would give us some footage from time to time...


You can just RIP any DVD to a drive and mute the audio simply enough. Use something like DVD shrink which is free software.


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## CT

Sunny Schramm said:


> I´m thankful just for the video-files without music - its hard to find real movie scenes to work and train on. would be cool if the studios would give us some footage from time to time...



Yeah, I'm not familiar with the show so I don't know that I'll actually be able to come up with something worth entering, but I'm definitely going to download it and look at it as an exercise if nothing else.


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## pmcrockett

Re: terms and conditions --
Isn't allowing the organization that runs a contest the right to use your submission and personal details to promote the contest pretty much just boilerplate terms and conditions for a contest? I get that nefarious stuff goes on in the industry, but there's literally nothing here that's different from the terms and conditions of any other contest I've ever seen, composition-related or otherwise.


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## Sunny Schramm

Technostica said:


> You can just RIP any DVD to a drive and mute the audio simply enough. Use something like DVD shrink which is free software.



but then all is missing - ambients, voices and effects should be there


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## ironbut

IMHO anyone with even a lick of talent and/or ability should skip this contest!
It would serve Spitfire and HBO right if only a handful of entries (and me) entered!
I hope this is a lesson they never forget!


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## bryla

Sunny Schramm said:


> but then all is missing - ambients, voices and effects should be there


Just like working copies usually are.


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## Technostica

Sunny Schramm said:


> but then all is missing - ambients, voices and effects should be there


Oops.


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## Michael Stibor

I think it seems pretty innocent. If you're already "in thie biz" and don't want to work for free (or whatever people are upset about) then I can aprpeciate that. But I'm definitely going to give it a go. If for no other reason, then I need the practice!

Also, as a side note, isn't there a Competitions sub forum here for topics like this?


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## Mornats

Geocranium said:


> Everyone entering should just know that it states in the terms and conditions: _"By entering the Competition, you hereby grant the Competition Entities the right to use your name, likeness, and entry in connection with the Competition and for any related advertising and promotion." _Basically every entry in this competition is free to be used by HBO's marketing, so they're getting a pretty good deal out of this competition with hundreds of applicants. If that doesn't bother you, then by all means don't let it stop you.



That's pretty standard copy for competitions. It's typically used so that they can publicise who won and use their entry as part of the PR around the competition being won.


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## emasters

HBO already has a composer they like for the series (who is part of the judging committee) -- hard to believe they or Spitfire are doing this to take advantage of musicians (considering many who enter are not involved in music to make a living). Interesting competition and great opportunity to share some music. Nice.....


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## Geocranium

Mornats said:


> That's pretty standard copy for competitions. It's typically used so that they can publicise who won and use their entry as part of the PR around the competition being won.



Yeah I hope it's not anything insidious is all. It immediately made me think of sites like 99 designs, which host "competitions" among designers where only the winner gets paid, but every submitted design is owned by the competition host.


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## SimonViklund

Anyone running Ableton Live (9) who has trouble importing the Westworld .mov files into their DAW? I get the following error message:

"The file 'Westworld_305_Clip_NoMusic.mov" could not be read. It may be corrupt or not licensed" (see the attached screen dump)

The same goes for the 720 version.

Any advice?


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## Alex Fraser

My god, you’re a suspicious lot!
I’m not convinced that HBO needs to sneakily get music written on the cheap. 😅

Best of luck to all those who enter.


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## Manuel Stumpf

SimonViklund said:


> Any advice?


Ableton Live's way of telling you: I cannot find a video codec for .mov files.
Either you need to find and install a Codec, or you can try to convert the video to .mp4 format.


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## Zero&One

Just so we are 100% clear @NoamL and @JohnG ... you are not entering this competition?

Kinda need to know that before I even turn the Mac on


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## RonOrchComp

bryla said:


> Just like working copies usually are.



Composers score to film (video) with no dial and no fx? Is that correct?


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## Macrawn

Geocranium said:


> I know a lot of people here are hobbyists or want to do this as a bit of fun which is fine, but I think this competition is technically a "crowdsourcing" effort, which doesn't really sit right with me. Crowdsourcing competitions IMO have had a net negative effect on creative industries, and I wouldn't recommend professionals get involved. Again, if you're doing it for a bit of fun, I say have at it.
> 
> Everyone entering should just know that it states in the terms and conditions: _"By entering the Competition, you hereby grant the Competition Entities the right to use your name, likeness, and entry in connection with the Competition and for any related advertising and promotion." _I interpreted this as every entry in this competition is free to be used by HBO's marketing, so they're getting a pretty good deal out of this competition with hundreds of applicants. If that doesn't bother you, then by all means don't let it stop you.
> 
> Edit: If none of the entries are used outside the competition, and this is just a fun community event, then I really have no issue with this. The only thing that concerns me is if this is a roundabout way for HBO to get a huge library of Westworld-like compositions while only paying out 6 winners.



I'm misquoting Lou Reed but I remember something to the extent of you are being paranoid the world is watching you, as if the world really cares enough to watch you.


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## will_m

RonOrchComp said:


> Composers score to film (video) with no dial and no fx? Is that correct?



There is no normal here, every project will be different, some composers write the score before the film is even shot. Usually when a composer is working on the score though the sound work will also be in progress, although you should at a minimum get the production dialogue to work with.


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## Geocranium

Macrawn said:


> I'm misquoting Lou Reed but I remember something to the extent of you are being paranoid the world is watching you, as if the world really cares enough to watch you.



Well the exploitation of creatives is actually pretty common in the industry, so I believe the paranoia is completely justified. This one just set off all the alarms.


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## Consona

Yea, they should have provided more formats than just mov.

Also, it's funny that when you upload the video with your music on your youtube, HBO comes to demonetize your video, since you are using their clip.  God forbid you made a penny out of that.



miket said:


> Oh, interesting. Maybe I'll do it.
> 
> Sorry, that's all I've got. No suspicious musings or quips about how much more I know than those dumb modern composers to contribute to the thread.


Let's load our Damages and Dark Zebras and zimmercopycat that shit into the stratosphere! Hell yea!


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## chillbot

SimonViklund said:


> "The file 'Westworld_305_Clip_NoMusic.mov" could not be read. It may be corrupt or not licensed" (see the attached screen dump)
> 
> The same goes for the 720 version.
> 
> Any advice?


If you're on Windows, search for Microsoft Expression Encoder, free program. Drag the video into it and hit "encode", by default converts it to a very windows-friendly format, though if you know what you're doing it has a lot more features.

Alternatively, you can install Quicktime and that may or may not install the proper codec for Ableton to read the file, I'm not sure. It used to work that way for me in Sonar but that was a couple of OS's ago.


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## Michael Stibor

Geocranium said:


> Well the exploitation of creatives is actually pretty common in the industry, so I believe the paranoia is completely justified. This one just set off all the alarms.


But how could they have done this competition differently? Genuinely curious.


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## Ned Bouhalassa

RonOrchComp said:


> Composers score to film (video) with no dial and no fx? Is that correct?


I always score to dialogue, both for tv and film. Wouldn't want it any other way. As for FX, there's always temp ambience placed by the editors.


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## musicalweather

Anyone else having trouble downloading the files? I've had to restart a couple of times, and now it seems it's grinding to a halt (284 KB/sec). Ugh.


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## Macrawn

Geocranium said:


> Well the exploitation of creatives is actually pretty common in the industry, so I believe the paranoia is completely justified. This one just set off all the alarms.



You really think they are going to compile people's youtube video music of this stuff? Wouldn't they really need your stems if they were actually going to use it for somethign? People's youtube mixes are worthless to them. Plus Spitfire at most might at most present them with like 3 of the best ones so they can pick a winner. HBO has it's own network of people who make music, and trailers and all of that. They don't want or need this stuff. 

The language I think is similar to Sonuscore's language for their competition. It just protects them when they post the videos of the winners. You can't just use their video for anything you want either. I'm more paranoid of Facebook than this (way more) but not entering is an option for everyone. 

It just sort of makes me laugh that you think HBO would be so desperate as to compile a bunch of youtube video pieces of music for use in some actual project.


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## chillbot

Macrawn said:


> It just sort of makes me laugh that you think HBO would be so desperate as to compile a bunch of youtube video pieces of music for use in some actual project.


This may be true but just to point out the flip side, submitting your music blindly without questioning could be considered equally absurd.


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## Rctec

RonOrchComp said:


> Composers score to film (video) with no dial and no fx? Is that correct?


No.


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## Geocranium

mikefrommontreal said:


> But how could they have done this competition differently? Genuinely curious.



My only qualm was the line where it seemed like they claimed they could use the submissions for promotional material. If they're not taking the copyright of all the submissions then I don't have any issue with it the way it is now.


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## Geocranium

Macrawn said:


> It just sort of makes me laugh that you think HBO would be so desperate as to compile a bunch of youtube video pieces of music for use in some actual project.



Larger companies than HBO do this all the time though. For example, Coke does this a lot with design competitions. Hell, years ago I actually _won_ one of these things, and it was hosted by Warner Bros. My composition placed among like 5 others and they paid me, but they owned every single composition entered.


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## Brian Nowak

Guitar Center did something like this with a singer songwriter competition. I decided not to enter. I don't like the idea that something I submitted but did not win anything with could be used for promotional purposes by a large company. 

So I won't enter this, either. Sure, if you win you get the whole collection. Got it. But I'm betting the competition is stiff with some of the bored (even pro level) composers. And I don't want to enter into a big competition where my music could end up being used without my consent or any compensation to me. 

I am fine with people who don't mind. And I don't really begrudge them what they're doing insofar as it's transparent. But I won't personally participate.


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## angeruroth

Well, I respect all your opinions, but I'm going to enter 'cause I know I'll have serious fun.
I'd love to throw a few organ lines here and there with a whistling and a rock guitar... Just to see what happens... But I guess I should make an almost boring percussive thingy with brass and strings everywhere, so...
But, oh, the temptation of letting the weirdness invade the scene until everything has a different purpose...  ...that could be fun!
Maybe there's a middle way?
LOL, This is already fun and I'm not composing yet


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## Rctec

Interesting read. I know so many of the people involved. They are very honorable. Ramin, Jona Nolan, my friends at Spitfire... But even without knowing them, my gut feeling tells me that those that overthink this stuff (it’s one piece of music, not your 9th symphony and your child. Nor is it your best piece of music. You haven’t written that yet...) will never really make it. As Chris Nolan - the WestWorld director’s brother - wrote in “Interstellar”: “ this is no time for caution”. 
Everyone is worried about getting ripped off or a bad deal. So negotiate! Figure it out how to do that. But if you don’t let people hear your music, you’ll never have a chance.
Ramin was making coffee for us. Do you think we drew up a contract or negotiated terms before he wrote his first piece for “Pirates”?
To be given the opportunity to write music, to be given the opportunity to take a chance and be heard... the rest is being good enough that they want you so badly that you are the one dictating the deal.


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## Brian Nowak

Rctec said:


> Interesting read. I know so many of the people involved. They are very honorable. Ramin, Jona Nolan, my friends at Spitfire... But even without knowing them, my gut feeling tells me that those that overthink this stuff (it’s one piece of music, not your 9th symphony and your child. Nor is it your best piece of music. You haven’t written that yet...) will never really make it. As Chris Nolan - the WestWorld director’s brother - wrote in “Interstellar”: “ this is no time for caution”.
> Everyone is worried about getting ripped off or a bad deal. So negotiate! Figure it out how to do that. But if you don’t let people hear your music, you’ll never have a chance.
> Ramin was making coffee for us. Do you think we drew up a contract or negotiated terms before he wrote his first piece for “Pirates”?
> To be given the opportunity to write music, to be given the opportunity to take a chance and be heard... the rest is being good enough that they want you so badly that you are the one dictating the deal.



For me it's just that I'd rather spend my time on a product that is mine than trying to compete for something like this. I think it's rather rude to be so preachy about people's concern over their content. Content ownership is the frontier of modern media.


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## jononotbono

West World is one of the best shows ever made. A competition to write some music for a scene using original footage of the show and then hopefully having the show’s composer, producers, writers, directors and Spitfire Audio listening to my music? Oh, and then then the small thing of hopefully winning the Spitfire Everything bundle? Holy shit! Such an opportunity. I’m going to start on this ASAP!


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## josephspirits

I think everyone is missing the real quandary here... Genre. 

What stage will your piece be tripping in?


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## John R Wilson

jononotbono said:


> West World is one of the best shows ever made. A competition to write some music for a scene using original footage of the show and then hopefully having the producers, writers, directors and Spitfire Audio listening to my music? Oh, and then then the small thing of hopefully winning the Spitfire Everything bundle? Holy shit! Such an opportunity. I’m going to start on this ASAP!



Westworld certainly is a great show. One of my new favourites, looking forward to the final tomorrow!! 

As for the competition, it does look like it could be fun. Not sure I'll have time to do it but good luck to everyone who enters.


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## Michael Stibor

josephspirits said:


> I think everyone is missing the real quandary here... Genre.
> 
> What stage will your piece be tripping in?


Well I don’t want to give you all a leg up here, but I happen to know through some insider information that Ramin Djawadi is _really_ into polka. Just sayin’.


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## Michael Stibor

Brian Nowak said:


> For me it's just that I'd rather spend my time on a product that is mine than trying to compete for something like this. I think it's rather rude to be so preachy about people's concern over their content. Content ownership is the frontier of modern media.


I don’t think Hans is trying to be preachy so much as share his knowledge and experience and to get everybody to think outside the box a little.

It’s been ingrained in us since we started composing to “not do anything for free” but in reality, that’s incomplete advice. Yes, it’s important to get paid for your hard work, but in some instances (such as this) exposure is the name of the game. We can be cynical and say that even if you win that it won’t amount to anything career wise. And that very well may be. Nobody promised that it would. But Hans’ point is that sometimes getting an opportunity to have people to hear your music who normally wouldn’t, is priceless in and out itself.


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## chillbot

mikefrommontreal said:


> But Hans’ point is that sometimes getting an opportunity to have people to hear your music who normally wouldn’t, is priceless in and out itself.


Agree, of course, especially given the right opportunity. I think HZ might not be exposed to some of the scummier ones that have floated by us down here. This one looks to be good and personality I didn't question it, but I also wouldn't question the ones that question it, knowing where they are coming from.


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## Geocranium

chillbot said:


> Agree, of course, especially given the right opportunity. I think HZ might not be exposed to some of the scummier ones that have floated by us down here. This one looks to be good and personality I didn't question it, but I also wouldn't question the ones that question it, knowing where they are coming from.



Yeah this is purely coming from a place of experience. I've seen so many fishy "competitions" and been part of some in my more naive years. Passionate composers looking for opportunities to find their place in the industry are some of the most passionate workers, but it also makes them the most easily exploitable. I'm in solidarity with composers, and I want everyone's work to be valued.


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## VinRice

Rctec said:


> Interesting read. I know so many of the people involved. They are very honorable. Ramin, Jona Nolan, my friends at Spitfire... But even without knowing them, my gut feeling tells me that those that overthink this stuff (it’s one piece of music, not your 9th symphony and your child. Nor is it your best piece of music. You haven’t written that yet...) will never really make it. As Chris Nolan - the WestWorld director’s brother - wrote in “Interstellar”: “ this is no time for caution”.
> Everyone is worried about getting ripped off or a bad deal. So negotiate! Figure it out how to do that. But if you don’t let people hear your music, you’ll never have a chance.
> Ramin was making coffee for us. Do you think we drew up a contract or negotiated terms before he wrote his first piece for “Pirates”?
> To be given the opportunity to write music, to be given the opportunity to take a chance and be heard... the rest is being good enough that they want you so badly that you are the one dictating the deal.



Preach, Mr Z!


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## josephwmorgan

josephspirits said:


> I think everyone is missing the real quandary here... Genre.
> 
> What stage will your piece be tripping in?



this has been my biggest thought since seeing which scene they chose! will be a lot of fun working on this


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## josephwmorgan

Rctec said:


> Interesting read. I know so many of the people involved. They are very honorable. Ramin, Jona Nolan, my friends at Spitfire... But even without knowing them, my gut feeling tells me that those that overthink this stuff (it’s one piece of music, not your 9th symphony and your child. Nor is it your best piece of music. You haven’t written that yet...) will never really make it. As Chris Nolan - the WestWorld director’s brother - wrote in “Interstellar”: “ this is no time for caution”.
> Everyone is worried about getting ripped off or a bad deal. So negotiate! Figure it out how to do that. But if you don’t let people hear your music, you’ll never have a chance.
> Ramin was making coffee for us. Do you think we drew up a contract or negotiated terms before he wrote his first piece for “Pirates”?
> To be given the opportunity to write music, to be given the opportunity to take a chance and be heard... the rest is being good enough that they want you so badly that you are the one dictating the deal.



Just want to take a step back here to point out that in what other industry or website do aspiring creatives get random gems of advice just casually dropped on them by one of the most accomplished people to ever do it? 

But anyways, this is so perfectly put. If you’re suspicious of the game and don’t want to play- don’t ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ the rest of us will keep playing in the sand and seeing what we can make. Don’t forget, we’re all just here because we love making music and what a fun and great opportunity this is for anyone who wants it!


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## charlieclouser

People need to relax. If your submission isn't good enough to be one of the top 6 spots, it's not going to be good enough for HBO to steal and use in a promo or trailer or whatever. It's not like they're so broke, and the supply of good music is so small, that there would be any possibility of your precious submission being used for any nefarious purpose. HBO is drowning in good music. The WORLD is drowning in good music. 

Besides, if you're going to actually be a "working composer", you'll be doing the equivalent of this submission every day, if not twice a day - every single day you're working. It's a mere crouton on the salad that comes before a single meal. It's not a big deal - but it might be a big opportunity for the right talented person.


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## Sebastianmu

Geocranium said:


> Everyone entering should just know that it states in the terms and conditions: _"By entering the Competition, you hereby grant the Competition Entities the right to use your name, likeness, and entry in connection with the Competition and for any related advertising and promotion."_


A very basic regulation for any type of competition-agreement. It needs to be in there for simple things as _announcing who won_!


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## Rctec

Brian Nowak said:


> For me it's just that I'd rather spend my time on a product that is mine than trying to compete for something like this. I think it's rather rude to be so preachy about people's concern over their content. Content ownership is the frontier of modern media.


I’m sorry if I came across rude and preachy. The only thing I keep preaching about is that the operative word in music is “play”, and we as creative musicians have the good fortune to be given the opportunity to live a playful life. But than I see that we come from very different directions: you think of your work as a “product”. I would be offended if anyone called my music a “product”. So, to me it’s all just a big game: music, art, fun - and, at the same time, with equal measure, deadly serious and passionate. From the heart. I think anyone that sets out to cheat artists out of their reward is despicable. I was just trying to point out the rather good and honorable company you could find yourself in, if you where to participate. And I can honestly say that none of those people have ever described music as a “product” to me. Or have forgotten how important it is to value the art and the artist and, at the same time embrace the game and... well, just Play!


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## Sebastianmu

Rctec said:


> embrace the game and... well, just Play!


I do wanna win, though! To that end, does it make sense to get close to what Ramin already writes for the show, or rather something entirely different?


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## Macrawn

No way my stuff will be good enough to come close to winning, but I think this is such a great thing Spitfire is doing. It takes a lot of time to put this together. They have to go through a lot of content to narrow it down. It's a lot of hours and to me it seems like they are getting some enjoyment out of putting it together. It's very cool. The top composers get a good prize and good exposure. Anyone placing near the top will have a nice thing for their resume. And for me I'll have some fun trying as this is not a career for me. I don't watch Westwall but I take it you get to score a scene that isn't even out yet. That's pretty cool too. That probably took a lot to get that to happen. Thanks Spitfire!


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## josephwmorgan

Sebastianmu said:


> I do wanna win, though! To that end, does it make sense to get close to what Ramin already writes for the show, or rather something entirely different?



they’ve already heard his take on the show. Win with your idea of how the music should sound!


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## 667

Also this is not a "crowd-sourced effort", because it's not going to be used. That's where it's scummy: when people "crowd source" via an essentially fake contest and the "winner" gets their work used (for free-- sorry-- I mean "exposure"). You see it all the time as a vehicle to get free creative work.

That's not what's happening here at all-- they don't want your music and it's not a scam to get it. That episode has already been scored! It's season three, they don't need a motif/theme for a main character that already has one, etc.


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## José Herring

If you currently aren't doing anything, you have one month during this stay at home period to write a few minutes of music to some pretty decent footage that will get listened to by top industry people. I say GO FOR IT!!!!


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## Geocranium

667 said:


> That's not what's happening here at all-- they don't want your music and it's not a scam to get it. That episode has already been scored! It's season three, they don't need a motif/theme for a main character that already has one, etc.



Then compose away, composers! 😎

Looking forward to seeing any particularly interesting submissions. Especially ones that deviate heavily from the original score.


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## David Kudell

Thank you Hans!! So well put.

I'm so excited about this opportunity. When you look at who's involved - Ramin, JJ, Jonathan Nolan & Lisa Joy - you won't find a more talented and nice group of people. The notion that Hollywood's top creative talent needs to mine VI-control for melody ideas is laughable.

I can't wait to have FUN with this. And to those who think their stuff "isn't good enough" - I get it...I feel like that too. But guess what - even the great composers have these same feelings of doubt. They push through this because of their love of creating music. Maybe my arrangement won't be as complex or elegant as others. But if I write something that moves people - something memorable, something that helps tell the story, then isn't that what it's all about?


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## jaketanner

Geocranium said:


> The only thing that concerns me is if this is a roundabout way for HBO to get a huge library of Westworld-like compositions while only paying out 6 winners


And do what with it? The show's already scored and done with...what would HBO even do with this clip? Unless you're suggesting that they would take the music out, and use it for some other clip elsewhere, or for something entirely different...but I really don't think that's the case. Don't see an issue at all, professional or not...unless I am really missing something here. Also, every contest, no matter what industry, usually reserves the right to use the names of the entrants for promotion...I just see it as another means of getting your name around. Never know who is listening and watching in the background...your entry might just catch the attention on the right person at the right time.


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## jaketanner

Geocranium said:


> I'm just very defensive when it comes to things like how labor is handled in creative fields, as workers like musicians seem to be very easily exploited.


Let's say they use your clip for something else...are they also saying that you are not getting credit nor can claim credit for it? I mean for an established pro, it's probably not worth it, nor their time to do this, but for people who might use this as a springboard, I think it's a good opportunity, and that's what I believe is the target audience. Because if you already have their SSO, and you win that prize, you get nothing...it's just for fun. Professionals might already have this library...just as a case in point. It's definitely not for pros to enter...it's for composers that want to have a shot at a real TV show, with foley...and something to boast about if they win. Seriously doubt it's for hoarding WW score's for a future project. Besides, don't the terms of the agreement work both ways...if we can't use the clip outside of this competition, then they can't sue the music we write for it either...outside the competition. Or did I not read where it says they can? hell..either way, I have nothing to lose at the moment, and consider it a "training" exercise.. LOL


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## Allen Constantine

Rctec said:


> I’m sorry if I came across rude and preachy. The only thing I keep preaching about is that the operative word in music is “play”, and we as creative musicians have the good fortune to be given the opportunity to live a playful life. But than I see that we come from very different directions: you think of your work as a “product”. I would be offended if anyone called my music a “product”. So, to me it’s all just a big game: music, art, fun - and, at the same time, with equal measure, deadly serious and passionate. From the heart. I think anyone that sets out to cheat artists out of their reward is despicable. I was just trying to point out the rather good and honorable company you could find yourself in, if you where to participate. And I can honestly say that none of those people have ever described music as a “product” to me. Or have forgotten how important it is to value the art and the artist and, at the same time embrace the game and... well, just Play!



Well said, Mr. Z, but from my own point of view, when you compose something from the heart and you can't have the possibility to keep your "own child" close to you, just in case you don't win the "gig", it's not fair.

I mean, you basically sign to give away your composition and not being able to use it back. Perhaps you'll want it back? 

Who knows what might come out of it in the long run? Maybe it'll even inspire you to work harder at it just because you lost that particular gig, but guess what?! *It's not owned by you anymore.* 

Now, I know that HBO have tons of great tracks in their catalog from great composers out there, and I also know that they don't really need new composers at the moment. And let's be even more honest, in the real world, nobody really cares about your music if it isn't a HIT, right? 

So I think that if Spitfire would have said that whoever does not win, could keep their compositions to themselves, it would have been wiser and better. Just my own thoughts! 

But, it's a great thing to try out in this quarantine, that's for sure! Thanks SF for sending over the no_music video.

Stay safe, 

Cheers!


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## purple

Geocranium said:


> I know a lot of people here are hobbyists or want to do this as a bit of fun which is fine, but I think this competition is technically a "crowdsourcing" effort, which doesn't really sit right with me. Crowdsourcing competitions IMO have had a net negative effect on creative industries, and I wouldn't recommend professionals get involved. Again, if you're doing it for a bit of fun, I say have at it.
> 
> Everyone entering should just know that it states in the terms and conditions: _"By entering the Competition, you hereby grant the Competition Entities the right to use your name, likeness, and entry in connection with the Competition and for any related advertising and promotion." _I interpreted this as every entry in this competition is free to be used by HBO's marketing, so they're getting a pretty good deal out of this competition with hundreds of applicants. If that doesn't bother you, then by all means don't let it stop you.
> 
> Edit: If none of the entries are used outside the competition, and this is just a fun community event, then I really have no issue with this. The only thing that concerns me is if this is a roundabout way for HBO to get a huge library of Westworld-like compositions while only paying out 6 winners.


They won't do that because, frankly, 95% of the entries will be absolute s***


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## dzilizzi

As one who is doing this for the fun of it and not expecting to win anything, I think it's great. These are fun exercises for someone who is learning. And I won't be at all disappointed if all you pros are too busy to do this.


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## charlieclouser

dzilizzi said:


> As one who is doing this for the fun of it and not expecting to win anything, I think it's great. These are fun exercises for someone who is learning. And I won't be at all disappointed if all you pros are too busy to do this.



Exactly. It seems every week there's a thread started here, on Gearslutz, or on Reddit where someone is looking for picture *with* dialog and sfx but *without* music. Well, here it is - and it's not some irrelevant eighties flick or a black+white B-movie from the 1940's - it's one of the hottest and most loved shows out there! Just getting your hands on the music-free scene is a best-case scenario, and when you add in the hassle that HBO/Ramin/Spitfire went through to put it out there, and the possibility that your submission will get heard by these people.... hell, it's a no-brainer and a great opportunity - even if you just grab the scene and score it over and over again in your lab and never even send in any submissions!

And for those who don't want to give up "ownership" of their submission, and want to retain the ability to exploit it for themselves - a couple of points:

- For almost all of the real, paid work that you eventually do, whether it's a film or tv series, you usually don't retain the ability to further exploit it. The act of the production company paying you for it almost always means that they "own the master recording", and that particular recording of your composition is theirs, not yours, to exploit whenever and wherever they can. This is almost always true, except at the highest and lowest levels - at the highest levels an artist like Trent Reznor can create a score at his own expense and license it to the production as if it were a bunch of needle-drop songs, thereby retaining the rights to use his master recordings (which he paid for and therefore owns) for a vinyl release or whatever - although it's likely there are some limitations in the contracts to specify that they can't be used as the score for another film, at least for X amount of time or whatever. HBO probably doesn't want the score from Watchmen being used on a series on a competing network that same season for instance, and will probably try to protect themselves from having that happen. And at the lowest level, if the production wants to pay a miniscule fee (because they just don't have the budget), then it's possible that the composer can retain ownership of the master recordings, or share it with the production company. Then it can be licensed for further use in trailers, other scores, soundtrack releases, or just as an album to be listened to for fun - and whoever owns (or shares ownership of) those master recordings gets to split up the licensing fees and mechanical royalties.

- If you do a demo / audition submission to try to get a gig on a film or tv series, and you are *not* paid for doing that demo / audition and wind up not getting the gig, in almost all cases you *will* be able to re-use or re-exploit that recording. But are you just going to stick it online as-is? Probably not. It will have hit points and tempo changes that were tailored to the scenes you were demo-scoring, and when listening to it in the wild it will probably sound like a lopsided, misshapen thing. So even if you think it's absolute magic you'll probably still want to change it up to make it suitable for listening or re-use. The fact that HBO + Spitfire put that language in their terms is just to enable them to run the damn contest without needing to go back to every single submitter that's in the running and get further clearances signed, which would be such a cluster-frack of fax machines and e-signatures that the whole process would collapse under its own weight. I'd think that if you submitted a cue and didn't make the final six, that you could tweak it a little and use it down the road with little to no fear of HBO's legal team coming knocking three years after the contest (that you didn't win) had ended.

- If you've only got one bullet in your gun, and you're afraid of wasting your life's one masterpiece on a contest like the Spitfire / Westworld thing, well.... might as well keep it in your pants. You're going to need more bullets if you want to get involved in any entertainment industry shootouts - a LOT more bullets. In the infinite wisdom of the Dorito's commercial, "Crunch all you want, we'll make more." Or, as the philosopher King Ad-Rock once said, "I got more rhymes than Jamaica got mangos." Both apply. 

Ideally, eventually you're going to need* a lot* of mangos.


----------



## purple

You know what, I've changed my mind, in fact we should all boycott this competition! (except me of course)


----------



## Rctec

charlieclouser said:


> Exactly. It seems every week there's a thread started here, on Gearslutz, or on Reddit where someone is looking for picture *with* dialog and sfx but *without* music. Well, here it is - and it's not some irrelevant eighties flick or a black+white B-movie from the 1940's - it's one of the hottest and most loved shows out there! Just getting your hands on the music-free scene is a best-case scenario, and when you add in the hassle that HBO/Ramin/Spitfire went through to put it out there, and the possibility that your submission will get heard by these people.... hell, it's a no-brainer and a great opportunity - even if you just grab the scene and score it over and over again in your lab and never even send in any submissions!
> 
> And for those who don't want to give up "ownership" of their submission, and want to retain the ability to exploit it for themselves - a couple of points:
> 
> - For almost all of the real, paid work that you eventually do, whether it's a film or tv series, you usually don't retain the ability to further exploit it. The act of the production company paying you for it almost always means that they "own the master recording", and that particular recording of your composition is theirs, not yours, to exploit whenever and wherever they can. This is almost always true, except at the highest and lowest levels - at the highest levels an artist like Trent Reznor can create a score at his own expense and license it to the production as if it were a bunch of needle-drop songs, thereby retaining the rights to use his master recordings (which he paid for and therefore owns) for a vinyl release or whatever - although it's likely there are some limitations in the contracts to specify that they can't be used as the score for another film, at least for X amount of time or whatever. HBO probably doesn't want the score from Watchmen being used on a series on a competing network that same season for instance, and will probably try to protect themselves from having that happen. And at the lowest level, if the production wants to pay a minuscule fee (because they just don't have the budget), then it's possible that the composer can retain ownership of the master recordings, or share it with the production company. Then it can be licensed for further use in trailers, other scores, soundtrack releases, or just as an album to be listened to for fun - and whoever owns (or shares ownership of) those master recordings gets to split up the licensing fees and mechanical royalties.
> 
> - If you do a demo / audition submission to try to get a gig on a film or tv series, and you are *not* paid for doing that demo / audition and wind up not getting the gig, in almost all cases you *will* be able to re-use or re-exploit that recording. But are you just going to stick it online as-is? Probably not. It will have hit points and tempo changes that were tailored to the scenes you were demo-scoring, and when listening to it in the wild it will probably sound like a lopsided, misshapen thing. So even if you think it's absolute magic you'll probably still want to change it up to make it suitable for listening or re-use. The fact that HBO + Spitfire put that language in their terms is just to enable them to run the damn contest without needing to go back to every single submitter that's in the running and get further clearances signed, which would be such a cluster-frack of fax machines and e-signatures that the whole process would collapse under its own weight. I'd think that if you submitted a cue and didn't make the final six, that you could tweak it a little and use it down the road with little to no fear of HBO's legal team coming knocking three years after the contest (that you didn't win) had ended.
> 
> - If you've only got one bullet in your gun, and you're afraid of wasting your life's one masterpiece on a contest like the Spitfire / Westworld thing, well.... might as well keep it in your pants. You're going to need more bullets if you want to get involved in any entertainment industry shootouts - a LOT more bullets. In the infinite wisdom of the Dorito's commercial, "Crunch all you want, we'll make more." Or, as the philosopher King Ad-Rock once said, "I got more rhymes than Jamaica got mangos." Both apply.
> 
> Ideally, eventually you're going to need* a lot* of mangos.


Charlie, I wish I’d written that!


----------



## Allen Constantine

charlieclouser said:


> - If you've only got one bullet in your gun, and you're afraid of wasting your life's one masterpiece on a contest like the Spitfire / Westworld thing, well.... might as well keep it in your pants. You're going to need more bullets if you want to get involved in any entertainment industry shootouts - a LOT more bullets. In the infinite wisdom of the Dorito's commercial, "Crunch all you want, we'll make more." Or, as the philosopher King Ad-Rock once said, "I got more rhymes than Jamaica got mangos." Both apply.
> 
> Ideally, eventually you're going to need* a lot* of mangos.



I don't think it's about someone being afraid of wasting their life's one masterpiece on a contest, or if the only have "one bullet"... Who knows how many great ideas can one have?

Also, who knows who has the most bullets?! Just by not agreeing to the terms and conditions? 

I'm also convinced that those who try to re-score the scene can find good ways of approach the scene, or maybe even re-score it better, but they just don't want to put it into a competition. 

For those who enter, I wish them good luck! And as I have previously mentioned, it's a great task for creativity. It's up to you whether you'll put it on YT or any other platforms, through competitions or not!


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## Nico

I think it is a GREAT opportunity!
Although having Ramin Djawadi's score + Ride of the Valkyries as "temp music" :D will be quite a challenge! Talking 'bout temp love...


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## bryla

Ned Bouhalassa said:


> I always score to dialogue, both for tv and film. Wouldn't want it any other way. As for FX, there's always temp ambience placed by the editors.


Just to clarify I’ve often worked on files where dialogue was missing and FX were temporary. Thinking that if you could magically turn the music off on your DVD rip is the same scenario that the composer works to is not what I’m used to anyways.


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## charlieclouser

Rctec said:


> Charlie, I wish I’d written that!


----------



## P3TAAL

Rctec said:


> Interesting read. I know so many of the people involved. They are very honorable. Ramin, Jona Nolan, my friends at Spitfire... But even without knowing them, my gut feeling tells me that those that overthink this stuff (it’s one piece of music, not your 9th symphony and your child. Nor is it your best piece of music. You haven’t written that yet...) will never really make it. As Chris Nolan - the WestWorld director’s brother - wrote in “Interstellar”: “ this is no time for caution”.
> Everyone is worried about getting ripped off or a bad deal. So negotiate! Figure it out how to do that. But if you don’t let people hear your music, you’ll never have a chance.
> Ramin was making coffee for us. Do you think we drew up a contract or negotiated terms before he wrote his first piece for “Pirates”?
> To be given the opportunity to write music, to be given the opportunity to take a chance and be heard... the rest is being good enough that they want you so badly that you are the one dictating the deal.



Well said, it's one piece of music out of hundreds I might compose. Of course I would like to win but if I don't and they rip off my entry to use for something else I would not give a flying [email protected]???. In fact if I don't win I hope they do use it for something else. Rather that than sitting on my hard drive doing nothing. Also I consider it a learning opportunity for scoring to picture. Really could not be less concerned about being "Riped Off".


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## shomynik

Thanks to OP for posting this. I'm in.


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## TomislavEP

The movies always had a special place in my life, mainly as a form of escapism but sometimes also inspiration. For many years, I've thought that being a media composer would be the "perfect thing" for me. But as time goes by and more I'm finding out on the subject, the more I'm certain that this is not for me, at least not 100%.

My whole life I'm trying to escape the corporate world if you will. I hate the constant competition, deadlines, hectic lifestyle, and cutthroat attitude. I'm struggling to make a living only from music for years now, first of all, because of the fulfillment the creativity itself brings, but also as a form of escape from the very life I've described.

Sorry, back to the topic. Personally I have very limited experience with scoring to picture thus far, I generally dislike the musical style of most modern film scores and I don't know a thing about "Westworld". Still, this could be a good exercise, so maybe I'd give it a go. I must admit, though, that the incentive (SA Everything) doesn't tempt me much (recently, I'm trying to streamline my sound palette as much as I can).


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## Consona

To me, the positive is, I got a piece of cinema without any music I can train my composing on. I wish we got more clips like that. (Honestly, I can't wait to try making more versions of music for it. The file is on my hardrive and I can compose to it even if the competition is long over.)

The first price is great. The second sucks, I don't want SSO, there's not even Burgess Percussion in it.  (Not that I will win anything, just saying...) I think all the people entering have their orchestral strings, winds and brass covered. Something like a coupon so you can pick the libraries you want would be better.



David Kudell said:


> The notion that Hollywood's top creative talent needs to mine VI-control for melody ideas is laughable.


Some people on internet forums can write way better music than guys scoring hollywood blockbusters. And that's what's ridiculous here. I was listening to some pieces on RedBanned and holy **** did I wish people like that were scoring new Star Treks and whatnot. (But those films suck so it would need new writers and directors, and...  Does it even matter what music is in those films? )

So while I agree top hollywood creatives are not interested in mining forums, since they don't care about music anymore (yea, they "care" but not really care (otherwise people like Broughton, McNeely or Debney would be doing these big films)), I rather think they need and should mine internet forums for some talent.
But they'd probably take people who are doing what is popular today, so... it would be pointless anyway.

It's a vicious circle where the majority of the old-school techniques are considered and sound "outdated", so even when someone can handle that stuff, his work would sound out of place, so you don't want him, and want guys that sound like what's in vogue, and so.....

Just the other day I was reharmonizing some Batman music with extended chords and was horrified how archaic and dated it sounded. Or when you make some vivid musical phrases, again, it sounds like something from a hundred years back.


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## doctoremmet

charlieclouser said:


> Or, as the philosopher King Ad-Rock once said, "I got more rhymes than Jamaica got mangos."


And his contemporary fellow philosopher Adam Yauch (may he rest in peace) added: “I’v got more rhymes than I got grey hairs.”. Later explaining:
“So that’s a lot, because I’ve got my share”


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## Eptesicus

Geocranium said:


> because at the end of the day only the winners are being compensated for their labor.



That is basically life. Especially in arts and sports.


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## redlester

As an amateur hobbyist with no intentions of being anything else I think this is a rare and wonderful chance to have a go at something like this, for the fun of it if nothing else.

If would be great if Spitfire could use their position in the industry to persuade content owners to make more such clips available with dialogue and FX intact but no music, so that there could be a library of such things for newcomers to practice and learn with. That would be a game changer!

I started the thread here by the way because this part of the forum is the busiest and I thought it might not be seen by many in the Competitions section.


----------



## shomynik

Haha, I literally thought Wagner was a temp track just for us 🤦‍♂️ It was very strange for me here like this, out of context (since I didn't watch the season).

Now, after researching a bit, my guess is we shouldn't treat ride of valkyries as temp track at all, as in - we shouldn't go that route as the scene was pulled out of the very specific and complex context. We should treat the clip as standalone, right? Like a generic car chase...generic as in - we don't know the backstory, no deeper meaning to anything. Same for Aaron Paul's trippin, something weird is going on but nothing specific... right?

If that's the idea, I have to admit I'm not having the best feeling about the "shallowness" of this case. But pros outweigh the cons for sure so I'm doing it anyway. I can always read the synopsis of the season to get the meaning of it all, if not watching the season.

Sorry, just thinking out loud, but I'm interested in your thoughts as well for sure.


----------



## purple

AllenConstantine said:


> I don't think it's about someone being afraid of wasting their life's one masterpiece on a contest, or if the only have "one bullet"... Who knows how many great ideas can one have?
> 
> Also, who knows who has the most bullets?! Just by not agreeing to the terms and conditions?
> 
> I'm also convinced that those who try to re-score the scene can find good ways of approach the scene, or maybe even re-score it better, but they just don't want to put it into a competition.
> 
> For those who enter, I wish them good luck! And as I have previously mentioned, it's a great task for creativity. It's up to you whether you'll put it on YT or any other platforms, through competitions or not!


If you've only got one bullet, your career will be short-lived anyways.


----------



## Allen Constantine

purple said:


> If you've only got one bullet, your career will be short-lived anyways.



I think I did not mention anything about having just one "bullet". :D.


----------



## emilio_n

Are there spoilers in the scene? I just started to watch Westworld a few days ago!
I want to practice with this opportunity even I don't think I will send it, because I am very bad, but at least as other said is great to practice!


----------



## shomynik

emilio_n said:


> Are there spoilers in the scene? I just started to watch Westworld a few days ago!
> I want to practice with this opportunity even I don't think I will send it, because I am very bad, but at least as other said is great to practice!


Nah, not really ...I think. At least nothing grand for sure.


----------



## Mornats

I'm a hobbyist and having this clip without music is a godsend. This will be the first time I'll have ever tried to compose to picture so if nothing else, I'm gonna learn a whole load of stuff I didn't know before.

Time to throw all my mangoes at this.


----------



## Andrajas

definitely gonna do something for this! I think its a bit crazy that some have already put up their submissions on youtube. I mean, you have time


----------



## Consona

shomynik said:


> Haha, I literally thought Wagner was a temp track just for us 🤦‍♂️ It was very strange for me here like this, out of context (since I didn't watch the season).
> 
> Now, after researching a bit, my guess is we shouldn't treat ride of valkyries as temp track at all, as in - we shouldn't go that route as the scene was pulled out of the very specific and complex context. We should treat the clip as standalone, right? Like a generic car chase...generic as in - we don't know the backstory, no deeper meaning to anything. Same for Aaron Paul's trippin, something weird is going on but nothing specific... right?
> 
> If that's the idea, I have to admit I'm not having the best feeling about the "shallowness" of this case. But pros outweigh the cons for sure so I'm doing it anyway. I can always read the synopsis of the season to get the meaning of it all, if not watching the season.
> 
> Sorry, just thinking out loud, but I'm interested in your thoughts as well for sure.


Yep, I'd say score it like a generic action scene. I don't know any context to that trippy behaviour, etc., but I like that stuff is in the clip, since it provides space for some tasty weird chords and whatnot.

Those Valkyries took me off guard as well.


----------



## Scamper

emilio_n said:


> Are there spoilers in the scene? I just started to watch Westworld a few days ago!



I think it's somewhat of a spoiler, if you haven't finished season 2.


----------



## Loïc D

As hobbyist, this is a great opportunity :
- to produce music based on AAA series
- to score a chase (never did it)
- to make use at last of Hybrid Tools (lol)
- to impress my wife (re lol)

Thanks Spitfire, I hope nothing but fun from this contest 

Good luck to everyone !

ps : I never watched the show. Btw, who’s that Ramin something ?


----------



## J-M

HA! You lot might just give up right now, because I, J-M, shall impress the judges with my massive and generic ostinatos, ridiculously basic violins harmonies, Square wave basses and block chords. I am doing you a favor, really, do not waste your time with this.

...Pretty please?


----------



## Consona

Gotta say, the 1 key composing with preprogrammed synth patches and damage drums is so much fun.


----------



## Brian Nowak

Rctec said:


> I’m sorry if I came across rude and preachy. The only thing I keep preaching about is that the operative word in music is “play”, and we as creative musicians have the good fortune to be given the opportunity to live a playful life. But than I see that we come from very different directions: you think of your work as a “product”. I would be offended if anyone called my music a “product”. So, to me it’s all just a big game: music, art, fun - and, at the same time, with equal measure, deadly serious and passionate. From the heart. I think anyone that sets out to cheat artists out of their reward is despicable. I was just trying to point out the rather good and honorable company you could find yourself in, if you where to participate. And I can honestly say that none of those people have ever described music as a “product” to me. Or have forgotten how important it is to value the art and the artist and, at the same time embrace the game and... well, just Play!



And that's why I said I understand and don't look down on anybody who would be willing to participate. I, on the other hand, take even the content I create out of the joy of my heart, to be a very serious bit of business. Content is product, whether or not the privileged or naive say otherwise. I have seen considerably more artists taken advantage of who DON'T see their artistic output as product than I have the other way around.

I have a good friend who wasn't too concerned about content ownership - until a silly video of some wild turkeys he took went viral on all social media platforms a few years ago. It ruined his social media accounts for a good 3 months until he got it all worked out and sorted with a licensing company. A 30 second video has paid him a hilarious amount of money, gotten him international interviews on news programs, etc. I assure you he didn't think "oh this turkey video is going somewhere" when he was filming it. He just thought it was something funny to put on youtube. But it's still paying him royalties to this day.

I find it odd that so many people with tooth and nail reputations in the music business have such easy, carefree advice to others regarding content and "opportunities". It's one of the things I also hear from so many looking to take advantage of people in this business. Funny, that.


----------



## Living Fossil

charlieclouser said:


> And for those who don't want to give up "ownership" of their submission, and want to retain the ability to exploit it for themselves - a couple of points:



Sorry for the stupid question, but is it actually stated in the t&c that participants give up their right to reuse their submitted tracks if they don't win?


----------



## peladio

Consona said:


> Gotta say, the 1 key composing with preprogrammed synth patches and damage drums is so much fun.



Give it a rest already..


----------



## bryla

Living Fossil said:


> Sorry for the stupid question, but is it actually stated in the t&c that participants give up their right to reuse their submitted tracks if they don't win?


No.


----------



## Michael Stibor

One thing that I think I’m going to do differently with this competition is to try and complete it ask quickly as possible.

It’s great that they gave us a month, as it enables more people to enter, etc. But in the real world, a month would be way too long for a four minute scene. I’m going to use this as a golden opportunity to see how well I can composer, mix, and produce a four minute scene in as short amount of time as possible.

I’ve always wondered whether or not I had the “goods” to compose in a professional real world setting, and this is my chance to find out. But taking a month won’t show me anything. Anyway, more of a personal challenge I guess.


----------



## Michael Stibor

Brian Nowak said:


> I find it odd that so many people with tooth and nail reputations in the music business have such easy, carefree advice to others regarding content and "opportunities". It's one of the things I also hear from so many looking to take advantage of people in this business. Funny, that.


I find it odd that you consider the free, proactive advice from professionals who are the “top guns” of their field, a field that I’m assuming you (like the rest of us) are looking to further our careers in, and who have no stake in this either way, as questionable. I think it’s worth considering what they’re saying, and why they’re saying it. We might all learn something.


----------



## Nico

I cannot believe that people are still questioning the intentions of the organizers. I find this very sad.
Of course, do not give your precious music for free if you are afraid that it might get misused by some shady people.
Do your research. Do you know the client already? Is it a reputable company/name?
In this case, the research is pretty much done already.
How/Why do you think that any of those guys (Spitfire / HBO ...) could take advantage of your music?
They have plenty of GREAT music already.
They have to write those terms and conditions since if they did not, 300 applicants would have 300 demands about how/when/where their music can be played or not.
Why would they waste any time/resources doing that?

At some point, you have to take a leap of faith if you want things to happen.

Now about the music...It is actually an interesting clip and there are many things to play with/consider.
- there a few moments where I could imagine some tempo changes
- play with the inside car/outside car shots.
- buildup until the 3min explosion
- play the ultramodern looks of the shots vs the romanticism of the temp track.
- play with the electric car sound, which makes it sonically very different than a regular car chase with roaring engines. In a lot of shots, there is almost no sound at all!
- deal with the heritage of Ramin Djawadi's music + Wagner! This show has been running for 3 seasons! Surely the music has evolved and there are things to build onto.

Good luck to everyone!


----------



## Stringtree

Charlie said some really great stuff. So grateful to have such a good couple posts.

I'm just going to be the class clown like I usually am, because a Coles is a weird-looking VO mic.

Is it me, or does Paul look like he's about to get a dental X-ray?

Greg


----------



## Consona

Nico said:


> I cannot believe that people are still questioning the intentions of the organizers. I find this very sad.


You know what's even sadder? Not questioning intentions of the organizers...



Plus it's very thematic, isn't this some cyberpunk $h17?


----------



## Nico

Consona said:


> You know what's even sadder? Not questioning intentions of the organizers...



I never said they should not be questioned, but simply that in this particular case, their intentions are pretty clear: marketing their product, giving away some money against Covid-19, promoting the release of the Westworld Season 3 Soundtrack.


----------



## NoamL

Consona said:


> Gotta say, the 1 key composing with preprogrammed synth patches and damage drums is so much fun.
> 
> Guys, do you think using muted brass, xylophone and some semblance of musical knowledge will thwart all my chances of winning libraries I don't want?



You might be approaching this with the wrong attitude. Scoring is not an opportunity for the composer to show off their chops. It's an opportunity to make a movie better.


----------



## NoamL

Also I went back to the Bleeding Fingers competition and found the winning track.

Remember, they gave us all these stems:



I remember my entry wasn't very creative. I did some things like chopping the singer's audio to make a 5/4 rhythm but other than that it wasn't anything that would impress someone who had to listen to a thousand contest entries... it was just an orchestra track.

Meanwhile the winner made this:



my favorite entry was this one. Absolute mad fun:



I think the winner of this competition will be someone who does something that #1 is creative and unexpected, #2 has flawless production, #3 does something cool or impressive in the first 30 seconds. It may not even be the best "score." Maybe a _little_ bit of showing off is in order. But I wouldn't bother at all with, like, a traditional orchestral score. You're gonna get lost in the 1000 entries and the first impression will be "lack of creativity, same as everyone else."


----------



## Alex Fraser

Thanks for posting those. I was going to dig them out, saves me the job.

Unfortunately, I won't be entering the competition. The only suitable medium for delivering _my_ music is gold lined papyrus manuscript. I've already contacted the competition organisers and apparently I can't make a submission this way.

Their loss.


----------



## Loïc D

NoamL said:


> Also I went back to the Bleeding Fingers competition and found the winning track.
> 
> Remember, they gave us all these stems:
> 
> 
> 
> I remember my entry wasn't very creative. I did some things like chopping the singer's audio to make a 5/4 rhythm but other than that it wasn't anything that would impress someone who had to listen to a thousand contest entries... it was just an orchestra track.
> 
> Meanwhile the winner made this:
> 
> 
> 
> my favorite entry was this one. Absolute mad fun:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the winner of this competition will be someone who does something that #1 is creative and unexpected, #2 has flawless production, #3 does something cool or impressive in the first 30 seconds. It may not even be the best "score." Maybe a _little_ bit of showing off is in order. But I wouldn't bother at all with, like, a traditional orchestral score. You're gonna get lost in the 1000 entries and the first impression will be "lack of creativity, same as everyone else."



Totally agree.
Warming up my hurdy-gurdy.


----------



## josephwmorgan

I've hesitated to post this because it feels like a great idea BUT I'm curious if it would even be allowed. SO if this IS allowed and someone steals the idea and wins, this post will serve as my "aw man that was my idea and they did it better!" and if it isn't allowed then I'm glad I asked!

It feels like the most inventive/Westworld approach to this would be to do a really cool interpretation of a pre-existing song. Ramin has so many great covers as part of the score of the show, and especially with the "switching genres" line it almost feels like this scene is begging for an original take on a classic song. While this would open the door to a lot of really cool/creative ideas, it also seems like an absolute NIGHTMARE for HBO as far licensing/rights would go. The text of the rules state "create an original musical score" so I'm just wondering if that leaves room for an original take on a cover to be considered score, or if it should just be melodies/music that have never existed. Just trying to think outside the box but maybe I'm TOO outside the box 😂looking forward to participating either way!

Anyways, sound off all ye who hate me for even having such a TERRIBLE idea! obviously you're the superior beings


----------



## pawelmorytko

I went and watched the batmobile chase from Dark Knight for some inspiration and realised there’s hardly any music. That then made me think, maybe it’s best not to have a constant wash of action music throughout the whole clip...


----------



## Michael Stibor

pawelmorytko said:


> I went and watched the batmobile chase from Dark Knight for some inspiration and realised there’s hardly any music. That then made me think, maybe it’s best not to have a constant wash of action music throughout the whole clip...



Well there’s music throughout in the original, but I think it’s certainly legitimate to NOT have music throughout. Really depends on your piece I guess.


----------



## Consona

NoamL said:


> You might be approaching this with the wrong attitude. Scoring is not an opportunity for the composer to show off their chops. It's an opportunity to make a movie better.


Having chops gives composer an opportunity to make a movie better. Unless you aim for some lowest common denominator or something. And with the term "better" we are, of course, cruising into the waters of subjectivity and whatnot.



But I really mean it, I have tons of fun. I'm 1 minute in, not even one semblance of a musical idea was required, and it sounds cool and trendy as f**k. Am I not allowed to say this? It's exactly what it is. My musical knowledge hasn't grown even the slightest, but my ASIO is peaking already because my PC can't handle so many effects




and I've rediscovered I can't mix even a little bit like Alan Meyerson.
I think that's enough for me. As I was adviced, don't make your demo out of the stuff you actually don't want to do in the future, because that's what will most probably happen.







NoamL said:


> Also I went back to the Bleeding Fingers competition and found the winning track.
> 
> Remember, they gave us all these stems:
> 
> 
> 
> I remember my entry wasn't very creative. I did some things like chopping the singer's audio to make a 5/4 rhythm but other than that it wasn't anything that would impress someone who had to listen to a thousand contest entries... it was just an orchestra track.
> 
> Meanwhile the winner made this:
> 
> 
> 
> my favorite entry was this one. Absolute mad fun:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the winner of this competition will be someone who does something that #1 is creative and unexpected, #2 has flawless production, #3 does something cool or impressive in the first 30 seconds. It may not even be the best "score." Maybe a _little_ bit of showing off is in order. But I wouldn't bother at all with, like, a traditional orchestral score. You're gonna get lost in the 1000 entries and the first impression will be "lack of creativity, same as everyone else."



Yea, I agree. I can't participate with any prospects of getting any attention. My first instinct after putting that video into the DAW was to load up a piano to bring some interesting ideas in, then I realized what the f**k am I doing? This is not supposed to be some Goldsmith score. Which is exactly what I'm gonna do, score it like that Goldsmith wannabe I'm, as best as I can, for my own fun and musical growth.



pawelmorytko said:


> I went and watched the batmobile chase from Dark Knight for some inspiration and realised there’s hardly any music. That then made me think, maybe it’s best not to have a constant wash of action music throughout the whole clip...



The first thing that popped in my mind as an example of what to do was not this scene, but the tumbler chase scene from Batman Begins:



But it's too block-bustery for such a show. And it actually has a hummable melody, which is a no-no.


----------



## Michael Stibor

josephwmorgan said:


> I've hesitated to post this because it feels like a great idea BUT I'm curious if it would even be allowed. SO if this IS allowed and someone steals the idea and wins, this post will serve as my "aw man that was my idea and they did it better!" and if it isn't allowed then I'm glad I asked!
> 
> It feels like the most inventive/Westworld approach to this would be to do a really cool interpretation of a pre-existing song. Ramin has so many great covers as part of the score of the show, and especially with the "switching genres" line it almost feels like this scene is begging for an original take on a classic song. While this would open the door to a lot of really cool/creative ideas, it also seems like an absolute NIGHTMARE for HBO as far licensing/rights would go. The text of the rules state "create an original musical score" so I'm just wondering if that leaves room for an original take on a cover to be considered score, or if it should just be melodies/music that have never existed. Just trying to think outside the box but maybe I'm TOO outside the box 😂looking forward to participating either way!
> 
> Anyways, sound off all ye who hate me for even having such a TERRIBLE idea! obviously you're the superior beings


I was wondering the same thing, but less for a copyrighted piece, and more for a classical piece. I read that they initially wanted Blue Danube for the “genre” section (I did some research lol) so that’s definitely the angle they had in mind. Not sure if I was disqualified for using William Tell or whatever. 🤔


----------



## brenneisen

mikefrommontreal said:


> Well there’s music throughout in the original



that's the original, mike


----------



## Michael Stibor

brenneisen said:


> that's the original, mike


I know, that’s what I said. My point is that it’s definitely not wrong to have it go throughout the whole piece considering that’s what they did in the original. But that it can potentially be a good idea to score it with more space, if that’s what works better in your individual piece.


----------



## Allen Constantine

josephwmorgan said:


> I've hesitated to post this because it feels like a great idea BUT I'm curious if it would even be allowed. SO if this IS allowed and someone steals the idea and wins, this post will serve as my "aw man that was my idea and they did it better!" and if it isn't allowed then I'm glad I asked!
> 
> It feels like the most inventive/Westworld approach to this would be to do a really cool interpretation of a pre-existing song. Ramin has so many great covers as part of the score of the show, and especially with the "switching genres" line it almost feels like this scene is begging for an original take on a classic song. While this would open the door to a lot of really cool/creative ideas, it also seems like an absolute NIGHTMARE for HBO as far licensing/rights would go. The text of the rules state "create an original musical score" so I'm just wondering if that leaves room for an original take on a cover to be considered score, or if it should just be melodies/music that have never existed. Just trying to think outside the box but maybe I'm TOO outside the box 😂looking forward to participating either way!
> 
> Anyways, sound off all ye who hate me for even having such a TERRIBLE idea! obviously you're the superior beings




Good point! In 99% of the cases, they'll choose anything that comes to being a really CRAZY approach on thematic.

So covers will do well as long they are put into the most craziest way you could think of.

After all, they are mostly, as @Nico said, "marketing their product, giving away some money against Covid-19, promoting the release of the Westworld Season 3 Soundtrack".

Basically, as long there are tons of ideas already for Season 4, it's crazy good.

"Season 4" might be right around the corner


----------



## Brian Nowak

mikefrommontreal said:


> I find it odd that you consider the free, proactive advice from professionals who are the “top guns” of their field, a field that I’m assuming you (like the rest of us) are looking to further our careers in, and who have no stake in this either way, as questionable. I think it’s worth considering what they’re saying, and why they’re saying it. We might all learn something.



I was basing my statements off of the information that was presented here: that anybody submitting any music was forfeiting rights to their music. If that is not true, and only winners of the competition need to give spitfire the rights to use their likeness, name, and work pertaining to the competition? I have absolutely no problem with that. The grand prize winner gets a HUGE amount of creative content, notoriety (yes people do care about these things), bragging rights, etc. 

But I'll also say this: the type of language and aphorisms displayed here (do it because you love it and it's fun! Trust the great people you're working with! Be humble and honored that somebody might even HEAR something you ever made!) have also been the base of many a wrongdoings to artists since the dawn of time. And DEFINITELY so in Hollywood California, and ESPECIALLY so in film music to even the highest top gun levels.

So yeah, I'd say it's right to be wary and know what you're always getting into, legal language speaking.


----------



## visiblenoise

Does this car chase seem really slow to anyone? As in, the cars are going 40mph or something. Either it isn't actually slow and I'm just not used to watching car chases without a pumping soundtrack, or there's some context I'm missing from not having watched this show?

Not sure what to do with this...maybe I'll try a lot of tuba.


----------



## Michael Stibor

Brian Nowak said:


> I was basing my statements off of the information that was presented here: that anybody submitting any music was forfeiting rights to their music. If that is not true, and only winners of the competition need to give spitfire the rights to use their likeness, name, and work pertaining to the competition? I have absolutely no problem with that. The grand prize winner gets a HUGE amount of creative content, notoriety (yes people do care about these things), bragging rights, etc.
> 
> But I'll also say this: the type of language and aphorisms displayed here (do it because you love it and it's fun! Trust the great people you're working with! Be humble and honored that somebody might even HEAR something you ever made!) have also been the base of many a wrongdoings to artists since the dawn of time. And DEFINITELY so in Hollywood California, and ESPECIALLY so in film music to even the highest top gun levels.
> 
> So yeah, I'd say it's right to be wary and know what you're always getting into, legal language speaking.


Ah, that makes more sense. I agree with what you’re saying. And I haven’t looked into it so I’m not sure, but I would not be surprised if even the losers (non winners?) are required to forfeit the rights of the track in this case. However I as someone who works in a non music related field as a full time time job, and who is constantly swamped in legal-ese on a regular basis, I’m also aware that many times certain terms/conditions are not for there for nefarious reasons. I mean there’s literally nothing they can do with your tracks once this is all said and done (not saying you said otherwise. Just referring to many comments here). But often they’re just there to cover their butts should a contestant see it otherwise and decide to say sell their track elsewhere, etc.
But yes, it’s important to be aware of what is being offered and what the conditions are. I don’t believe in handshake promises, or believe in getting paid in “exposure” or whatever. But I think in this case, and I’m pretty sure this was Hans’ point, that there is something to be said for writing for opportunities that aren’t just about money. Not always of course, but in some instances. Had Ramin insisted on a binding contract before scoring a scene for “Pirates” then he wouldn’t be where he is today. But I understand that your point is more for people to just be careful.


----------



## Nico

visiblenoise said:


> Does this car chase seem really slow to anyone? As in, the cars are going 40mph or something. Either it isn't actually slow and I'm just not used to watching car chases without a pumping soundtrack, or there's some context I'm missing from not having watched this show?
> 
> Not sure what to do with this...maybe I'll try a lot of tuba.



yes slightly, I think this is due to the silent electric cars.
But still not as slow as this car chase (maybe I will just copy music from this clip :D)


----------



## Michael Stibor

visiblenoise said:


> Does this car chase seem really slow to anyone? As in, the cars are going 40mph or something. Either it isn't actually slow and I'm just not used to watching car chases without a pumping soundtrack, or there's some context I'm missing from not having watched this show?
> 
> Not sure what to do with this...maybe I'll try a lot of tuba.


I thought that too. I remember watching one of those Hollywood composer round tables where Alan Silvesti mentioned being asked to compose something to make it seem like the dog was running faster, lol. It was a theoretical example, but thats part of the job I guess.


----------



## Dan Drebing

visiblenoise said:


> Does this car chase seem really slow to anyone? As in, the cars are going 40mph or something. Either it isn't actually slow and I'm just not used to watching car chases without a pumping soundtrack, or there's some context I'm missing from not having watched this show?


Yes, I think the dinky engine sounds don't help. But yeah the motion just isn't really, there especially without the score.


----------



## shomynik

visiblenoise said:


> Does this car chase seem really slow to anyone? As in, the cars are going 40mph or something. Either it isn't actually slow and I'm just not used to watching car chases without a pumping soundtrack, or there's some context I'm missing from not having watched this show?
> 
> Not sure what to do with this...maybe I'll try a lot of tuba.



I thought the same for Nolan's batmobile and bat-bike(?)


----------



## Akarin

jononotbono said:


> West World is one of the best shows ever made. A competition to write some music for a scene using original footage of the show and then hopefully having the show’s composer, producers, writers, directors and Spitfire Audio listening to my music? Oh, and then then the small thing of hopefully winning the Spitfire Everything bundle? Holy shit! Such an opportunity. I’m going to start on this ASAP!



Exactly. Nothing to add to this.


----------



## Brian Nowak

mikefrommontreal said:


> Ah, that makes more sense. I agree with what you’re saying. And I haven’t looked into it so I’m not sure, but I would not be surprised if even the losers (non winners?) are required to forfeit the rights of the track in this case. However I as someone who works in a non music related field as a full time time job, and who is constantly swamped in legal-ese on a regular basis, I’m also aware that many times certain terms/conditions are not for there for nefarious reasons. I mean there’s literally nothing they can do with your tracks once this is all said and done (not saying you said otherwise. Just referring to many comments here). But often they’re just there to cover their butts should a contestant see it otherwise and decide to say sell their track elsewhere, etc.
> But yes, it’s important to be aware of what is being offered and what the conditions are. I don’t believe in handshake promises, or believe in getting paid in “exposure” or whatever. But I think in this case, and I’m pretty sure this was Hans’ point, that there is something to be said for writing for opportunities that aren’t just about money. Not always of course, but in some instances. Had Ramin insisted on a binding contract before scoring a scene for “Pirates” then he wouldn’t be where he is today. But I understand that your point is more for people to just be careful.



As I read the agreement, there WAS a lot of information regarding protection of the company in exact cases as you have specified. Boilerplate protections. However, there was a specific section that I understand people would find problematic: 






However, I believe this is ok because it specifically pertains to the contest. Of course, as they announce finalists and things, they have to use your likeness, name, music, etc. Nature of the agreement. So no, I don't really have a problem with this provided it's so specific.

However, it is perfectly normal for people to be somewhat (or even totally) suspicious of giving up their content rights. It's the largest issue of our digital art age. And while it may be a passion and we all love doing it, it can still be big business, and it's silly not to at least consider that yes, your art might very well be content or product. If you don't see it that way, then I guarantee you that somebody else most definitely does. And if they know you don't see it that way, then they will take advantage of it. Tale as old as time, unfortunately.


----------



## Consona

visiblenoise said:


> Does this car chase seem really slow to anyone? As in, the cars are going 40mph or something. Either it isn't actually slow and I'm just not used to watching car chases without a pumping soundtrack, or there's some context I'm missing from not having watched this show?
> 
> Not sure what to do with this...maybe I'll try a lot of tuba.


Also, why do futuristic cars always look so ugly?


----------



## Fitz

I think what a lot of composers fear is valid, but people also need to remember not everyone is out to screw you at every turn. The good people at Spitfire are putting this together for US, not to make this a cattle call for them to "Steal" our music. With that, how would they even rip the music from a mixed YouTube file? Does anyone really think that? They are not in short supply of amazing composers who would work for them at the drop of a hat.

I always find it fascinating that composers will be such a negative lot, when everything about this situation seems to be positive for everyone involved.


----------



## bozmillar

Running a contest like this is orders of magnitude more expensive and more work than just hiring a good musician. Nobody is making contests as a front to get free good music to use. Just the amount of time spent listening to all the entries is more work than actually hiring a composer.


----------



## José Herring

Early in my career I was prodigious in sending out my reel (before internet was a real thing). Samples were bad and my reel was one of the few that had real orchestras on it.

I've had my themes stolen and used in a major film. Somebody took my demo real and used it for local indie film trailers in NYC. In LA somebody took my reel and chopped it up and used it for a bumper on ABC. I've been called in for a job and presented my music to a director who then took my music and used it as a temp track for another major composer and I've ended up contributing music to major motion pictures with no dime or credit. Oh wait, I think somebody took pity on me and gave me $60 bucks. But to add to the indignity I had to enter my own IMDB.COM credit as "uncredited composer".

So to all those that are worried about HBO stealing your music, if they planned on doing that the last thing they would do is announce a public competition to win sample libraries through posting it publicly on youtube. They would just rip it from your soundcloud.

So I think you're safe.


----------



## Rctec

josejherring said:


> Early in my career I was prodigious in sending out my reel (before internet was a real thing). Samples were bad and my reel was one of the few that had real orchestras on it.
> 
> I've had my themes stolen and used in a major film. Somebody took my demo real and used it for local indie film trailers in NYC. In LA somebody took my reel and chopped it up and used it for a bumper on ABC. I've been called in for a job and presented my music to a director who then took my music and used it as a temp track for another major composer and I've ended up contributing music to major motion pictures with no dime or credit. Oh wait, I think somebody took pity on me and gave me $60 bucks. But to add to the indignity I had to enter my own IMDB.COM credit as "uncredited composer".
> 
> So to all those that are worried about HBO stealing your music, if they planned on doing that the last thing they would do is announce a public competition to win sample libraries through posting it publicly on youtube. They would just rip it from your soundcloud.
> 
> So I think you're safe.


Jose, it sounds a bit like it’s your own fault. Who was your lawyer, doing the deal? Or - afterwards - if you didn’t have one then, and you saw your stuff getting ripped off - who did you get and was fighting for you in this town where you can’t cross the street without falling over a lawyer. Easiest town to find one...Look, even though the biggest market for sequencers and music software is Lawyers, Doctors and Dentists, (this is true, I have the data...)I don’t see them infringing on my lively hood with their weekend compositions. im probably (other than my friend Randy Schönberg, whose Grandfather was Arnold Schönberg) not going to take any musical advice from them... but legal? Yes! That’s the thing they are good at, they love to help... So why not ask? Don’t ask an agent, or a friend, ask a music biz lawyer.


----------



## barteredbride

But also, the Facebook video on the competition has already been viewed 52 million times.

If there is like 100,000 enteries, how are they even gonna view them all ?!


----------



## JEPA

barteredbride said:


> But also, the Facebook video on the competition has already been viewed 52 million times.
> 
> If there is like 100,000 enteries, how are they even gonna view them all ?!


A.I.???


----------



## José Herring

Rctec said:


> Jose, it sounds a bit like it’s your own fault. Who was your lawyer, doing the deal? Or - afterwards - if you didn’t have one then, and you saw your stuff getting ripped off - who did you get and was fighting for you in this town where you can’t cross the street without falling over a lawyer. Easiest town to find one...Look, even though the biggest market for sequencers and music software is Lawyers, Doctors and Dentists, (this is true, I have the data...)I don’t see them infringing on my lively hood with their weekend compositions. im probably (other than my friend Randy Schönberg, whose Grandfather was Arnold Schönberg) not going to take any musical advice from them... but legal? Yes! That’s the thing they are good at, they love to help... So why not ask? Don’t ask an agent, or a friend, ask a music biz lawyer.



I hear you for sure. 

Oh it was totally my fault. I'm not laying blame on anybody else believe me. 

I've always been on my own. I was naive and trusting and sending my music out to anybody who even had a hint of a job. It worked well and I did get jobs, but I didn't think they were big enough that anybody else would be interested. 

Those stories just came to mind because I'm contemplating after a bit of an absence to get back involved in scoring. So I've been pondering the errors of my ways 

Going forward, getting a lawyer is probably the best advice I've gotten. Thx.


----------



## Mrmonkey

As a beginner to all this, I think these sorts of competitions are few and far between. I started to mess around with music because of the joy it brings to both overcome the challenge of making something from nothing, and because I just wanted to make some sounds in my head become real. Its like being a kid again playing with Legos and having this need to be expressive.

Sometimes it can be hard when you always start from nothing though, it’s like there is no instruction manual, just the bricks. You hit a hurdle, you get stuck, you lose direction. This is a tough hobby to get into in many ways.

Competitions like this open up a little window to peek into the fantasy of being an actual composer. For exactly one month I can pretend! Sure it’s not real, but I get to have a deadline and some structure cemented around the creative fun of making music. This means something more than a prize, it is some focus and a challenge. It’s difficult to set that challenge myself.

I get that if you’re a professional that maybe you would see this in a different way, that your music has proper value and you would want to protect it, or that you have this sort of structure in your day to day so it’s doesn’t mean much, but for me this is really exciting and I hope it becomes a regular Spitfire thing in the future.


----------



## David Kudell

barteredbride said:


> But also, the Facebook video on the competition has already been viewed 52 million times.
> 
> If there is like 100,000 enteries, how are they even gonna view them all ?!


Perhaps the judges are hosts?

Ramin, bring yourself back online. JJ, cease all motor functions.


----------



## Soundlex

barteredbride said:


> But also, the Facebook video on the competition has already been viewed 52 million times.
> 
> If there is like 100,000 enteries, how are they even gonna view them all ?!


They won't.
That's the reason why they want you to upload it on youtube.
So they can listen to the ones that have the most views already.
If you want to win the competition you will have to promote your video url hard and make a ton of views...
At least I saw a few competitions working like this.


----------



## Michael Stibor

barteredbride said:


> But also, the Facebook video on the competition has already been viewed 52 million times.
> 
> If there is like 100,000 enteries, how are they even gonna view them all ?!


52,000. Still a lot, but that’s a big difference.


----------



## Alex Fraser

Soundlex said:


> They won't.
> That's the reason why they want you to upload it on youtube.
> So they can listen to the ones that have the most views already.
> If you want to win the competition you will have to promote your video url hard and make a ton of views...
> At least I saw a few competitions working like this.


I think there's an element of truth to that.
If I remember correctly, the first entries out of the gate in the Bleeding Fingers competition had a bit of a run on the others when it came to views and eyeballs/ears.

Perhaps that's why the entries are already rolling in. Probably a smarter move than spending time debating about it in this thread!


----------



## JEPA

Alex Fraser said:


> I think there's an element of truth to that.
> If I remember correctly, the first entries out of the gate in the Bleeding Fingers competition had a bit of a run on the others when it came to views and eyeballs/ears.
> 
> Perhaps that's why the entries are already rolling in. Probably a smarter move than spending time debating about it in this thread!


I don'T compose that fast when I am working parallel in three productions...


----------



## asherpope

So much suspicion here! I'm willing to bet a lot of these dubious folks probably spend a lot more time building up their templates than actually writing music


----------



## charlieclouser

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> This is my first post, though I’ve read this forum since I started film composing 3 years ago.
> 
> As an artist, there is something naturally unsettling about art competitions. I think everyone, even those like myself who have won competitions in the past, feel this way to some degree.
> 
> Since ancient Greece though, artists have endured the reality that competitions are routine for the formulation of hierarchies. Aristophanes entered into the competition at Dionysia a play called _The Clouds_. It finished last place. Today it is considered the best in that genre.
> 
> It is clear, whether it is the Van Cliburn piano competition or the outcome of this odd car chase scene contest, that competitions are not particularly good indicators of future success nor of current cultural consequence.
> 
> These examples illuminate the quandary of art verse art: they fall short in establishing hierarchies useful to the public yet provide the opportunity for instant success. The latter is extremely attractive to artists, who by nature are struggling to “make it” or “stay on top” depending on the stage of their career. Navigating the latter, the composer risks subordinating the meritorious for the meretricious.
> 
> Given the penchant of the presenting company for kayfabe marketing, in addition to the artist/competition issues articulated above, a degree of sympathy towards the more skeptical view in this thread is reasonable. Some temperance may prevent painful internal confusion about one’s artistic journey—no composer wants to be found out to be a fraud, no matter how resistant to subjectively their music happens to be.



Hahahaha did you bring enough thesauri for the whole class?

Anyway, "competitions are not particularly good indicators of future success nor of current cultural consequence."

No duh. Whoever wins this thing isn't going to be hired as Ramin's replacement, and probably not as his assistant or even his tea boy. But everybody gets to take a swing at a real scene from a real HBO show (and a good one at that). Plus, the winner gets a drive-full of Spitfire libraries, so that's pretty cool. 

And maybe, just maaaayyyyybeeee someone involved in reviewing the submissions will hear something that sticks in their mind and someday they might be looking for some music and think, "I wonder what ever happened to that dude that won the Westworld contest?" Or, maybe someone out there, someone completely uninvolved in the reviewing process, will be watching the submissions on YouTube and think, "Dang there's some decent stuff in there. I like some of these that didn't even make the final six better than the winners. I'm gonna bookmark some of these so I can find them if I can ever get this tv series off the ground." Cut to X years later....

There is an element of "throwing spaghetti at the wall and see if it sticks" to this, both for the submitters and the reviewers, but that's what the whole world of selecting music / composers for any film or tv project is like. When a music supervisor / music editor is helping the producers / directors "find the right tone" for a production and then build a temp score for a film or pilot episode, they're scrolling through so much freakin' music you wouldn't believe it. Sitting in the edit bay just going, "no, no, no, no, no.... wait, go back one. Hmmmmm.... maybe." Pulling scores from everything from "A League of Their Own" to "Zyzzyx Road" (google it). And, these days, scrolling though YouTube / SoundCloud etc. So why not be one of the pieces of spaghetti on top of the plate, right next to the meatball? Otherwise you might not get thrown at the wall.

Even if the winning submission is bonkers great, right on the money, totally perfect for the next big series on HBO or whatever, there's going to be such a massive vetting process in between "I love this person, get 'em on the phone NOW!" and "I'm feeling like they've got what it takes, let's hire 'em." 

Does the winner have great ideas, the personality and communication skills to verbalize the abstract and carry on meaningful discussions with the producers, AND command of the instruments / production / mixing along with the ability to deal with the logistics and intricacies of actually delivering the material in a form and format that is digestible in the production's workflow, along with the infrastructure and team to actually pull off gig X on a week-to-week schedule?

Or are they just someone who got it right once?

But hey, getting it right once is the first step - and without that, there will be no second step. 

Or third through thousandth steps (which consist of all of the above PLUS just plain old getting it right a thousand more times).

In the end, it's not deciding whether you want to donate a kidney to a stranger. It's just a couple days of having fun making some hopefully cool music (which in theory all of us would be doing anyway), and maybe getting some free sample libraries. That should be enough.

Nobody's curing rocket cancer here - it's just some background music for a little light entertainment. Nothing to stress out over.


----------



## Will Wilson

I for one am going to see this for what it is, an excellent opportunity to score some amazing source material. I don't believe for one minute this is some conspiracy theory my Spitfire or HBO to steal a load of mediocre music (because let's be honest 98% of the entries will be, myself probably included).

HBO already have an established, well known composer bringing this thing to life each week, why would they need to rely on the great unknown masses from the internet to add anything?

Add that to the fact that we have true industry heavy hitters like Hans and Charlie in here, giving up their own time to support this thing and encouraging everyone to give it a go, I'm sold.

I'd be grateful if those of you complaining just sat in the corner with your tin foil hats on and let us amateurs have a crack!


----------



## NYC Composer

1. I hate working for free unless it’s a demo with a realistic promise of a gig if the demo is liked. That having been said...

2. When I do compete for a gig, I prefer to compete with a limited scope of submitters rather than 2 zillion. Call me crazy, call me insecure but music is a pretty subjective thing. I once competed for a national advertising campaign in which I found out there had been 50 entries. I came in SECOND. Second is a lot like 49th. A LOT.

Anyway, y’all have fun. Nothing wrong with taking a shot, or, a... mango.

Oh, btw-I really really like the music on Westworld. It’s impactful, it’s brooding and interesting. I hear some Zimmer and Vangelis influences in the synth sections. Anyway, lots of kudos for the work and talent that went into it.


----------



## Tfis

They want us to fight against Valkyries?
Oh, perfidious albion.


----------



## redlester

Soundlex said:


> They won't.
> That's the reason why they want you to upload it on youtube.
> So they can listen to the ones that have the most views already.
> If you want to win the competition you will have to promote your video url hard and make a ton of views...
> At least I saw a few competitions working like this.



They will take the 100 most viewed entries and put them into their wonky Tombola to draw the winner.


----------



## Michael Stibor

charlieclouser said:


> Hahahaha did you bring enough thesauri for the whole class?
> 
> Anyway, "competitions are not particularly good indicators of future success nor of current cultural consequence."
> 
> No duh. Whoever wins this thing isn't going to be hired as Ramin's replacement, and probably not as his assistant or even his tea boy. But everybody gets to take a swing at a real scene from a real HBO show (and a good one at that). Plus, the winner gets a drive-full of Spitfire libraries, so that's pretty cool.
> 
> And maybe, just maaaayyyyybeeee someone involved in reviewing the submissions will hear something that sticks in their mind and someday they might be looking for some music and think, "I wonder what ever happened to that dude that won the Westworld contest?" Or, maybe someone out there, someone completely uninvolved in the reviewing process, will be watching the submissions on YouTube and think, "Dang there's some decent stuff in there. I like some of these that didn't even make the final six better than the winners. I'm gonna bookmark some of these so I can find them if I can ever get this tv series off the ground." Cut to X years later....
> 
> There is an element of "throwing spaghetti at the wall and see if it sticks" to this, both for the submitters and the reviewers, but that's what the whole world of selecting music / composers for any film or tv project is like. When a music supervisor / music editor is helping the producers / directors "find the right tone" for a production and then build a temp score for a film or pilot episode, they're scrolling through so much freakin' music you wouldn't believe it. Sitting in the edit bay just going, "no, no, no, no, no.... wait, go back one. Hmmmmm.... maybe." Pulling scores from everything from "A League of Their Own" to "Zyzzyx Road" (google it). And, these days, scrolling though YouTube / SoundCloud etc. So why not be one of the pieces of spaghetti on top of the plate, right next to the meatball? Otherwise you might not get thrown at the wall.
> 
> Even if the winning submission is bonkers great, right on the money, totally perfect for the next big series on HBO or whatever, there's going to be such a massive vetting process in between "I love this person, get 'em on the phone NOW!" and "I'm feeling like they've got what it takes, let's hire 'em."
> 
> Does the winner have great ideas, the personality and communication skills to verbalize the abstract and carry on meaningful discussions with the producers, AND command of the instruments / production / mixing along with the ability to deal with the logistics and intricacies of actually delivering the material in a form and format that is digestible in the production's workflow, along with the infrastructure and team to actually pull off gig X on a week-to-week schedule?
> 
> Or are they just someone who got it right once?
> 
> But hey, getting it right once is the first step - and without that, there will be no second step.
> 
> Or third through thousandth steps (which consist of all of the above PLUS just plain old getting it right a thousand more times).
> 
> In the end, it's not deciding whether you want to donate a kidney to a stranger. It's just a couple days of having fun making some hopefully cool music (which in theory all of us would be doing anyway), and maybe getting some free sample libraries. That should be enough.
> 
> Nobody's curing rocket cancer here - it's just some background music for a little light entertainment. Nothing to stress out over.


There is such much great information/advice in this post that I don’t even know where to start. So I won’t try.

I’ll just add that I’m surprised by the natural negativity of so many here. I’m surprised that their automatic reaction (and reasoning) for entering the contest wasn’t exactly as you described. And for those who’s only end goal is winning the contest, and are cynical about their chances, I would highly recommend they don’t enter. Because they likely won’t win, they likely won’t become famous from it, and music is subjective, it’s all big popularity contest, etc, etc.

And I get it, time is money. As someone with a full time (non music related) job, a wife, four kids, and a long term paid composing gig on the side, I can appreciate that decision. Especially if you consider ‘not winning’ as failure, or a waste of your time.

I don’t know, maybe everyone is further along in their careers then I am, and can afford to be cynical. I, for one, want to enter the contest for the following reasons: for FUN, to possibly win a cool prize, to hear how others would approach a cue differently than me (and learn from that), and to possibly be one of those strands of spaghetti that sticks to the wall. Because hey, sometimes those who lost on American Idol ended up with better careers than those that won. So who knows?


----------



## jononotbono

charlieclouser said:


> Hahahaha did you bring enough thesauri for the whole class?
> 
> Anyway, "competitions are not particularly good indicators of future success nor of current cultural consequence."
> 
> No duh. Whoever wins this thing isn't going to be hired as Ramin's replacement, and probably not as his assistant or even his tea boy. But everybody gets to take a swing at a real scene from a real HBO show (and a good one at that). Plus, the winner gets a drive-full of Spitfire libraries, so that's pretty cool.
> 
> And maybe, just maaaayyyyybeeee someone involved in reviewing the submissions will hear something that sticks in their mind and someday they might be looking for some music and think, "I wonder what ever happened to that dude that won the Westworld contest?" Or, maybe someone out there, someone completely uninvolved in the reviewing process, will be watching the submissions on YouTube and think, "Dang there's some decent stuff in there. I like some of these that didn't even make the final six better than the winners. I'm gonna bookmark some of these so I can find them if I can ever get this tv series off the ground." Cut to X years later....
> 
> There is an element of "throwing spaghetti at the wall and see if it sticks" to this, both for the submitters and the reviewers, but that's what the whole world of selecting music / composers for any film or tv project is like. When a music supervisor / music editor is helping the producers / directors "find the right tone" for a production and then build a temp score for a film or pilot episode, they're scrolling through so much freakin' music you wouldn't believe it. Sitting in the edit bay just going, "no, no, no, no, no.... wait, go back one. Hmmmmm.... maybe." Pulling scores from everything from "A League of Their Own" to "Zyzzyx Road" (google it). And, these days, scrolling though YouTube / SoundCloud etc. So why not be one of the pieces of spaghetti on top of the plate, right next to the meatball? Otherwise you might not get thrown at the wall.
> 
> Even if the winning submission is bonkers great, right on the money, totally perfect for the next big series on HBO or whatever, there's going to be such a massive vetting process in between "I love this person, get 'em on the phone NOW!" and "I'm feeling like they've got what it takes, let's hire 'em."
> 
> Does the winner have great ideas, the personality and communication skills to verbalize the abstract and carry on meaningful discussions with the producers, AND command of the instruments / production / mixing along with the ability to deal with the logistics and intricacies of actually delivering the material in a form and format that is digestible in the production's workflow, along with the infrastructure and team to actually pull off gig X on a week-to-week schedule?
> 
> Or are they just someone who got it right once?
> 
> But hey, getting it right once is the first step - and without that, there will be no second step.
> 
> Or third through thousandth steps (which consist of all of the above PLUS just plain old getting it right a thousand more times).
> 
> In the end, it's not deciding whether you want to donate a kidney to a stranger. It's just a couple days of having fun making some hopefully cool music (which in theory all of us would be doing anyway), and maybe getting some free sample libraries. That should be enough.
> 
> Nobody's curing rocket cancer here - it's just some background music for a little light entertainment. Nothing to stress out over.



God damn it man. Another great post. Something tells me you may have done a bit of scoring yourself.


----------



## dzilizzi

By the way, the fact that you are putting your entry on YouTube publishes it. As of that date. Yes, it is demonitized because of the HBO content on the screen. BUT, if you ever have to go to court, it is out there with an upload date and everything. Just saying.


----------



## josephwmorgan

charlieclouser said:


> Hahahaha did you bring enough thesauri for the whole class?
> 
> Anyway, "competitions are not particularly good indicators of future success nor of current cultural consequence."
> 
> No duh. Whoever wins this thing isn't going to be hired as Ramin's replacement, and probably not as his assistant or even his tea boy. But everybody gets to take a swing at a real scene from a real HBO show (and a good one at that). Plus, the winner gets a drive-full of Spitfire libraries, so that's pretty cool.
> 
> And maybe, just maaaayyyyybeeee someone involved in reviewing the submissions will hear something that sticks in their mind and someday they might be looking for some music and think, "I wonder what ever happened to that dude that won the Westworld contest?" Or, maybe someone out there, someone completely uninvolved in the reviewing process, will be watching the submissions on YouTube and think, "Dang there's some decent stuff in there. I like some of these that didn't even make the final six better than the winners. I'm gonna bookmark some of these so I can find them if I can ever get this tv series off the ground." Cut to X years later....
> 
> There is an element of "throwing spaghetti at the wall and see if it sticks" to this, both for the submitters and the reviewers, but that's what the whole world of selecting music / composers for any film or tv project is like. When a music supervisor / music editor is helping the producers / directors "find the right tone" for a production and then build a temp score for a film or pilot episode, they're scrolling through so much freakin' music you wouldn't believe it. Sitting in the edit bay just going, "no, no, no, no, no.... wait, go back one. Hmmmmm.... maybe." Pulling scores from everything from "A League of Their Own" to "Zyzzyx Road" (google it). And, these days, scrolling though YouTube / SoundCloud etc. So why not be one of the pieces of spaghetti on top of the plate, right next to the meatball? Otherwise you might not get thrown at the wall.
> 
> Even if the winning submission is bonkers great, right on the money, totally perfect for the next big series on HBO or whatever, there's going to be such a massive vetting process in between "I love this person, get 'em on the phone NOW!" and "I'm feeling like they've got what it takes, let's hire 'em."
> 
> Does the winner have great ideas, the personality and communication skills to verbalize the abstract and carry on meaningful discussions with the producers, AND command of the instruments / production / mixing along with the ability to deal with the logistics and intricacies of actually delivering the material in a form and format that is digestible in the production's workflow, along with the infrastructure and team to actually pull off gig X on a week-to-week schedule?
> 
> Or are they just someone who got it right once?
> 
> But hey, getting it right once is the first step - and without that, there will be no second step.
> 
> Or third through thousandth steps (which consist of all of the above PLUS just plain old getting it right a thousand more times).
> 
> In the end, it's not deciding whether you want to donate a kidney to a stranger. It's just a couple days of having fun making some hopefully cool music (which in theory all of us would be doing anyway), and maybe getting some free sample libraries. That should be enough.
> 
> Nobody's curing rocket cancer here - it's just some background music for a little light entertainment. Nothing to stress out over.



possibly one of the best posts i've ever seen on this site?


----------



## charlieclouser

barteredbride said:


> If there is like 100,000 enteries, how are they even gonna view them all ?!



Unpaid interns! It's a great opportunity for someone who wants to get into the music supervisor world!

Only half kidding. But, yeah, if there are thousands of entries then you can bet there will be a first tier of filtration somehow, where someone other than HBO execs and Ramin himself will be grinding through the submissions, rating them with 1-5 stars as you would rate your Uber driver, and maybe categorizing them as "orchestral vs electronic, thematic vs sound-design-y, overt vs subtle, forceful vs gentle" etc. Or maybe it's not even that sophisticated - it might be as simple as "Oh Christ, look how many there are....whittle this pile down from 1,000 to 50 so we can deal, keeping only that which does not suck ass."

As to wasting time / not getting paid / working for free / etc. - I feel like there's multiple phases one passes through on the way to... wherever:

- Phase One (just starting / haven't started yet status) = I'll do any ridiculous amount of work for no money if my brain fools me into thinking it represents some shred of opportunity. Score an indie film shot on an iPhone by a 15-year old? I'm down. Quit my job and live in my car while spending two months composing music for a student film for zero dollars just in case that student goes on to be the next Nolan? Sounds reasonable. (aka the "Lemme at it" phase.)

- Phase Two (I'm a pro and it's beneath me to work for free status) = Now I've made some money at this stuff, and I feel like if I don't assign value to my time and work, then that gives everyone else the justification not to assign value to my time and work. Or, I quit my damn job for this, and I got assistants to pay and plugins to buy, so I don't / can't do anything for free. Frack you, pay me. (aka the "L'Oreal: Because I'm Worth It" phase.)

- Phase Three (up and running status) = OMG I'm doing this, I'm really doing this! So I can take a few days to grind out a few audition cues for a project I really want while my assistant deals with the day-to-day on my tv series, and not expect or need to be paid for the time I spend doing the audition cues. If they like 'em, maybe I'll make the final three. If not, screw it - stick 'em in the "to be pillaged" pile and maybe we can repurpose them if we get in a pinch someday. (aka the "Sure no problem" phase.)

- Phase Four (baller status) = I got money coming in the mail so fast I don't even read the statements, I just look at end-of-the-year pie charts my business managers create that summarize which projects / territories / networks are generating the most fees and royalties. Now money has become almost meaningless in the sense that I don't count how much goes out vs how much comes in on a per-project basis, since the amount coming in is always bigger than the amount going out. So I'll spend out of pocket to hire a full orchestra just to do audition cues, even if that means I can't really pillage those demos for other projects because now there's external players on the tracks and I can't just use the recordings they played on for whatever, whenever, without getting them on paper and paid for that re-purposing. Not right (and not legal) to take buy-out performances done for an audition cue and use them later on a paid score that's going on networks or in theaters. Gotta get 'em on paper. But no biggie, spend the money, make the recordings, and if we don't get the gig we'll file 'em away in the "idea pile" that maybe we use on a reel or something, but never on a paid, "for air" thing. (aka "A/B/C List" phase.)

- Phase Five (artiste status) = Money is meaningless to me, and 'twas ever thus. I don't even look at the pie charts anymore - maybe I never did, or maybe there aren't any damn pie charts anyway. Maybe money doesn't matter because I made / inherited zillions elsewhere, maybe it doesn't matter because I live on a glacier in Iceland and reindeer milk is cheap, or maybe it doesn't matter because I do my scores on $50 worth of bowed wineglasses and an iMac (or all of the above). I'll spend six months writing music based on a five-minute conversation about a project that a producer/director is only thinking about *maybe* doing someday, or writing a whole album / suite / concerto based on a book I liked, just because I liked the book, and not strictly "just in case someone thinks about turning it into a movie someday". (aka "Brian Eno" phase.)

I almost think of those phases as if they were the years of college - like "freshman, sophomore, junior, senior, doctorate" levels. In all but the second (sophomore) phase, getting paid for a demo / audition / submission is just not part of the equation. So wanting / asking / demanding to get paid for a submission, or considering unpaid auditioning as not worth your time, feels kind of sophomoric, and quite possibly the people dishing out the auditions might think of it this way as well. Their view is like, "No way can we pay five or ten composers a demo fee, and why should we? Anybody worth a crap is going to have the ability to demo for this thing on their own dime without having to sell a kidney or cramp their style. The fact that they're even being considered means they've already made the cut to some degree, they should be happy!" Maybe when they're down to the final two and it's going to cost some big bucks to record both Silvestri and Shore's takes on the big superhero theme so they can compare the real thing and not mockups (if those guys even DO mockups anymore?), then the studio will shell out - but now we're talking about the rarefied atmosphere at the top of the mountain where mortals fear to tread. 

I had a situation where I spent about a week doing a set of three audition cues for a feature, and lost out on the gig to someone who spent their own cash to record a real orchestra just for the audition! Yes, that composer tacked those recordings onto the end of their weekly full-orchestra sessions for a big cable series they were on the third season of, but still, they had to pay for those extra few hours -it's not like the music contractor would let that slide for free, and at that level it's not like he could pretend those cues were for the show that was on the books and "oops, we didn't use them for the show so I used them as a demo for something else". That ain't gonna fly. So I wasn't surprised or disappointed when my one-week all-in-the-box audition didn't beat out a full orchestra. And I didn't get the gig. No biggie. In the end that composer spent WAY more doing the actual score with a full orchestra than the fee they received. I am friends with one of the producers who told me that, yeah, in the end the composer was upside-down on that gig for hundreds of thousands, but felt it was a fun project and a good opportunity and was therefore worth it to him (although he didn't do the sequel.) There was a score budget of X and it was all-in, no wiggle room, take it or leave it (or at least that's what they told my people). I figured I could do it in the box for X, or with a real non-union orchestra in somewhere like Prague for 2X, and dude said he could do it in town with a real orchestra for X and eat the overage, so.... duh. That's a no brainer for the producers. Plus his music was probably "more right" for the film than mine was anyway! (I watched the movie when it came out and the score was fine, nothing world-shattering, nothing too special really, but fine in an ordinary way. Dude probably busted it out without breaking a sweat.) My producer friend was like, "Sorry bro, it wasn't entirely my call to make, and dude's demo was killer with a full orchestra and the director fell in love, so I waved your flag but in the end I couldn't overrule cause I don't have the power." And of course my genuine response was, "It ain't a thang, totally get it, still love you bro. Next one." And we're still buds.

But I digress.

The process of doing something that didn't work out adds to the knowledge pile, even if it's only to shine a light on why you didn't get that gig once you hear what they wound up going with - or if it makes you think, "Well crap. Never doing THAT again..."

All experience is good experience - even bad *experiences*. If that makes sense.


----------



## bryla

charlieclouser said:


> whittle this pile down from 1,000 to 100 by Thursday, keeping only that which does not suck ass."


Not saying anything about whoever wants to submit I have judged music competitions: it's really easy within a small amount of time to determine whether the entry does 'suck ass'. If in doubt they can send it through to the next tier.


----------



## David Kudell

charlieclouser said:


> Unpaid interns! It's a great opportunity for someone who wants to get into the music supervisor world!
> 
> Only half kidding. But, yeah, if there are thousands of entries then you can bet there will be a first tier of filtration somehow, where someone other than HBO execs and Ramin himself will be grinding through the submissions, rating them with 1-5 stars as you would rate your Uber driver, and maybe categorizing them as "orchestral vs electronic, thematic vs sound-design-y, overt vs subtle, forceful vs gentle" etc. Or maybe it's not even that sophisticated - it might be as simple as "Oh Christ, look how many there are....whittle this pile down from 1,000 to 100 by Thursday, keeping only that which does not suck ass."



Shoot, and I had this vision of JJ Abrams listening to entry #2,483, by David Kudell, and saying, "Wait, hold on....this is the one! Get this guy on the phone! Did we sign John Williams to the next Star Wars yet? Is it too late to back out?!"


----------



## Peter Satera

Consona said:


> Also, why do futuristic cars always look so ugly?



Quit living in the past man...don't you know _style_ once you've seen it.






Plus, everyone knows there will be no cars in the future. The only way to get to your destination will be human canons.


----------



## Fitz

I am genuinely surprised by the amount of negativity on this forum, both from industry veterans and newcomers alike. On the one hand, the newcomers fear their music will be "stolen" which we all know is so unlikely, and yet industry veterans chime in with very good posts, but it all seems so condescending and preachy.

Maybe I'm alone on this, but I'd like to see everyone in the music world be a little lighter about this whole thing, and a little more kind in their responses in general. There's so much snark in here that it's kind of disturbing, and no wonder people have been run off this board before. I can only imagine the real world snark of Hollywood is 10x worse than what we find on here, which seems sad. Because at the end of the day, it's just music. The egos seem to run out of control, especially on a forum.

My advice to anyone entering the contest: don't expect to win, but rather use it to compose some hopefully cool music to a cool scene. That's it.


----------



## Michael Stibor

Fitz said:


> My advice to anyone entering the contest: don't expect to win, but rather use it to compose some hopefully cool music to a cool scene. That's it.



Well said. It seems so obvious to me, but apparently there a lot of overthinking going on here.


----------



## Consona

Fitz said:


> I am genuinely surprised by the amount of negativity on this forum, both from industry veterans and newcomers alike. On the one hand, the newcomers fear their music will be "stolen" which we all know is so unlikely, and yet industry veterans chime in with very good posts, but it all seems so condescending and preachy.
> 
> Maybe I'm alone on this, but I'd like to see everyone in the music world be a little lighter about this whole thing, and a little more kind in their responses in general. There's so much snark in here that it's kind of disturbing, and no wonder people have been run off this board before. I can only imagine the real world snark of Hollywood is 10x worse than what we find on here, which seems sad. Because at the end of the day, it's just music. The egos seem to run out of control, especially on a forum.
> 
> My advice to anyone entering the contest: don't expect to win, but rather use it to compose some hopefully cool music to a cool scene. That's it.


We are f**ing talking apes, what do you expect from our species?


----------



## Eptesicus

charlieclouser said:


> Unpaid interns! It's a great opportunity for someone who wants to get into the music supervisor world!
> 
> Only half kidding. But, yeah, if there are thousands of entries then you can bet there will be a first tier of filtration somehow, where someone other than HBO execs and Ramin himself will be grinding through the submissions, rating them with 1-5 stars as you would rate your Uber driver, and maybe categorizing them as "orchestral vs electronic, thematic vs sound-design-y, overt vs subtle, forceful vs gentle" etc. Or maybe it's not even that sophisticated - it might be as simple as "Oh Christ, look how many there are....whittle this pile down from 1,000 to 50 so we can deal, keeping only that which does not suck ass."
> 
> As to wasting time / not getting paid / working for free / etc. - I feel like there's multiple phases one passes through on the way to... wherever:
> 
> - Phase One (just starting / haven't started yet status) = I'll do any ridiculous amount of work for no money if my brain fools me into thinking it represents some shred of opportunity. Score an indie film shot on an iPhone by a 15-year old? I'm down. Quit my job and live in my car while spending two months composing music for a student film for zero dollars just in case that student goes on to be the next Nolan? Sounds reasonable. (aka the "Lemme at it" phase.)
> 
> - Phase Two (I'm a pro and it's beneath me to work for free status) = Now I've made some money at this stuff, and I feel like if I don't assign value to my time and work, then that gives everyone else the justification not to assign value to my time and work. Or, I quit my damn job for this, and I got assistants to pay and plugins to buy, so I don't / can't do anything for free. Frack you, pay me. (aka the "L'Oreal: Because I'm Worth It" phase.)
> 
> - Phase Three (up and running status) = OMG I'm doing this, I'm really doing this! So I can take a few days to grind out a few audition cues for a project I really want while my assistant deals with the day-to-day on my tv series, and not expect or need to be paid for the time I spend doing the audition cues. If they like 'em, maybe I'll make the final three. If not, screw it - stick 'em in the "to be pillaged" pile and maybe we can repurpose them if we get in a pinch someday. (aka the "Sure no problem" phase.)
> 
> - Phase Four (baller status) = I got money coming in the mail so fast I don't even read the statements, I just look at end-of-the-year pie charts my business managers create that summarize which projects / territories / networks are generating the most fees and royalties. Now money has become almost meaningless in the sense that I don't count how much goes out vs how much comes in on a per-project basis, since the amount coming in is always bigger than the amount going out. So I'll spend out of pocket to hire a full orchestra just to do audition cues, even if that means I can't really pillage those demos for other projects because now there's external players on the tracks and I can't just use the recordings they played on for whatever, whenever, without getting them on paper and paid for that re-purposing. Not right (and not legal) to take buy-out performances done for an audition cue and use them later on a paid score that's going on networks or in theaters. Gotta get 'em on paper. But no biggie, spend the money, make the recordings, and if we don't get the gig we'll file 'em away in the "idea pile" that maybe we use on a reel or something, but never on a paid, "for air" thing. (aka "A/B/C List" phase.)
> 
> - Phase Five (artiste status) = Money is meaningless to me, and 'twas ever thus. I don't even look at the pie charts anymore - maybe I never did, or maybe there aren't any damn pie charts anyway. Maybe money doesn't matter because I made / inherited zillions elsewhere, maybe it doesn't matter because I live on a glacier in Iceland and reindeer milk is cheap, or maybe it doesn't matter because I do my scores on $50 worth of bowed wineglasses and an iMac (or all of the above). I'll spend six months writing music based on a five-minute conversation about a project that a producer/director is only thinking about *maybe* doing someday, or writing a whole album / suite / concerto based on a book I liked, just because I liked the book, and not strictly "just in case someone thinks about turning it into a movie someday". (aka "Brian Eno" phase.)
> 
> I almost think of those phases as if they were the years of college - like "freshman, sophomore, junior, senior, doctorate" levels. In all but the second (sophomore) phase, getting paid for a demo / audition / submission is just not part of the equation. So wanting / asking / demanding to get paid for a submission, or considering unpaid auditioning as not worth your time, feels kind of sophomoric, and quite possibly the people dishing out the auditions might think of it this way as well. Their view is like, "No way can we pay five or ten composers a demo fee, and why should we? Anybody worth a crap is going to have the ability to demo for this thing on their own dime without having to sell a kidney or cramp their style. The fact that they're even being considered means they've already made the cut to some degree, they should be happy!" Maybe when they're down to the final two and it's going to cost some big bucks to record both Silvestri and Shore's takes on the big superhero theme so they can compare the real thing and not mockups (if those guys even DO mockups anymore?), then the studio will shell out - but now we're talking about the rarefied atmosphere at the top of the mountain where mortals fear to tread.
> 
> I had a situation where I spent about a week doing a set of three audition cues for a feature, and lost out on the gig to someone who spent their own cash to record a real orchestra just for the audition! Yes, that composer tacked those recordings onto the end of their weekly full-orchestra sessions for a big cable series they were on the third season of, but still, they had to pay for those extra few hours -it's not like the music contractor would let that slide for free, and at that level it's not like he could pretend those cues were for the show that was on the books and "oops, we didn't use them for the show so I used them as a demo for something else". That ain't gonna fly. So I wasn't surprised or disappointed when my one-week all-in-the-box audition didn't beat out a full orchestra. And I didn't get the gig. No biggie. In the end that composer spent WAY more doing the actual score with a full orchestra than the fee they received. I am friends with one of the producers who told me that, yeah, in the end the composer was upside-down on that gig for hundreds of thousands, but felt it was a fun project and a good opportunity and was therefore worth it to him (although he didn't do the sequel.) There was a score budget of X and it was all-in, no wiggle room, take it or leave it (or at least that's what they told my people). I figured I could do it in the box for X, or with a real non-union orchestra in somewhere like Prague for 2X, and dude said he could do it in town with a real orchestra for X and eat the overage, so.... duh. That's a no brainer for the producers. Plus his music was probably "more right" for the film than mine was anyway! (I watched the movie when it came out and the score was fine, nothing world-shattering, nothing too special really, but fine in an ordinary way. Dude probably busted it out without breaking a sweat.) My producer friend was like, "Sorry bro, it wasn't entirely my call to make, and dude's demo was killer with a full orchestra and the director fell in love, so I waved your flag but in the end I couldn't overrule cause I don't have the power." And of course my genuine response was, "It ain't a thang, totally get it, still love you bro. Next one." And we're still buds.
> 
> But I digress.
> 
> The process of doing something that didn't work out adds to the knowledge pile, even if it's only to shine a light on why you didn't get that gig once you hear what they wound up going with - or if it makes you think, "Well crap. Never doing THAT again..."
> 
> All experience is good experience - even bad *experiences*. If that makes sense.




They might first randomly throw 90% of them in the bin.

That gets rid of the unlucky ones.


----------



## charlieclouser

Fitz said:


> There's so much snark in here that it's kind of disturbing, and no wonder people have been run off this board before. I can only imagine the real world snark of Hollywood is 10x worse than what we find on here, which seems sad. Because at the end of the day, it's just music. The egos seem to run out of control, especially on a forum.



Maybe I'm completely upside-down on my interpretation of your post, but I feel like I mostly run into snark and skeptical viewpoints on forums, and rarely in the outside world. Sure, there's some element of world-weary realism in the back-lot bungalow offices in Hollywood, but I feel like it's generally a more optimistic, free, and fun attitude than you find on threads like this one. Like, it's not as cut-throat, "steal his ideas and help me bury his body" as threads like this would seem to indicate - and even if some parts of it are like that, it's possible to avoid the sucky bits. It *is* (mostly) about music and fun and creativity and not wanting to work with arseholes (or maybe I've just managed to avoid those sucky bits). And you're right, it's just music. Supposed to be fun.


----------



## Rossy

Just started yesterday and as this is my very first attempt at scoring to picture, I'm hooked. This is so much fun and I wish there were more opportunities like this, it's great to have no music and only effects, I can clearly hear how my music has impact. It's a great learning experience and I can't wait to download nucleus tomorrow and start implementing it.


----------



## TravB

I've posted this topic on Spitfire's Facebook page and in a direct message to them... no reply/comment from anyone, so this is my last attempt. Apologies for not having entered a scoring contest before... or perhaps I'm overthinking it. Here goes...

How does any film composer even begin to write music for a scene without direction or notes from the Director or Producers? I'm inquiring because in my humble opinion, the music MUST serve the STORY. However, as I hope we all could agree, what one sees on the screen with regards to story is largely subjective -- but here is why Director's notes during a spotting session are so critical -- the Director explains EXACTLY what aspect(s) of the story is moving forward in the scene and how music can supplement and enhance that intent.

My point is for this competition, without Director's notes, how we can know what to score? Are we to simply guess and just hope we've interpreted the scene with the same intent as the Director?


----------



## Peter Satera

At first I was thinking similar @TravB , some info is always beneficial to help approach. At first, I was wondering if the scoring should be in context of the show, should themes, instrument choice, sound design, etc all adhere to what was already there to create consistency with the show or is it to produce something absolutely unique to our own and produce a personal palette?

...I think I was over-thinking it. So like some I've seen on Youtube I'm just gonna add a few hip hop beats and drown the dialogue in bass.


----------



## dzilizzi

Going by last time's winner, I don't think it necessarily has to even match the scene they are trying to convey. So if you decide it should be a comedy, go for it. Be unusual. Have fun.


----------



## charlieclouser

TravB said:


> Are we to simply guess and just hope we've interpreted the scene with the same intent as the Director?



Yes. Exactly.

That's part of the process, part of what makes a director and a composer feel like "kindred souls" who share a similar outlook and can have a productive creative relationship. When they feel like you get it without being explicitly instructed what to do. Best-case scenario is when they can describe how they want the score to relate to the whole arc of the story, slowly revealing more and more of the central theme while nodding to the various characters and plot lines, and refer to other music in terms of the emotions they evoke. Worst-case scenario is when they don't have the abstract verbal skills to describe what they need much beyond, "I'll know it when I hear it."

I rarely have hours-long conversations about how to approach a scene, and usually there's not even all that much back-and-forth over the course of days and multiple revisions etc. That's when it starts to feel like pulling teeth, like maybe this composer just doesn't get it, like maybe we got the wrong guy. 

An example of a one-minute conversation that worked: A sentimental scene, tender emotions, might even be a final goodbye before one character dies or goes away forever, can't tell because I haven't seen the whole film yet. No idea what's going on, it's just an audition cue. Temp score is in place and sounds lovey-dovey, but my first impression that I blurted out to the director was, "This temp makes it seem like these two are in love, but that feels wrong. Like it needs tender emotion but more like they're brother and sister saying goodbye for the last time or something, not like they're going to get married or whatever." Director's response: "Exactly. See what you can come up with." Done. Took less than a minute to talk that one out.

An example of a conversation that lasted a week and didn't work: Thriller / tension film, people double-crossing each other, lying, sneaking around, the whole works. But subdued and tense, not epic war-drum beat-downs, and with a high-tech sheen because they're hacking computers, swiping fake ID badges to gain entry to restricted facilities, etc. So I take a swing at it - nope, it's "too energetic and percussive and pointy somehow". Okay, take another swing. Nope, this one "still feels too active or bright or something". Okay, damn... third swing. Now the director's running out of words to describe how much he doesn't like what I'm laying down, it's just "Still not the right vibe, man, I dunno...". 

In desperation, sitting with the director in the edit suite, I say, "Sounds like what you mean is something like this:" and I start singing and mouth-beat-boxing along to picture, basically imitating James Newton-Howard's amazing score to "Michael Clayton" - those tension cues as he's driving upstate. I say, "You know, kind of a Michael Clayton vibe?" And the director goes, "Exactly! That's what we had in the temp!".

*But I had never heard that temp*. Due to them previously hiring a composer who I was supposed to be replacing, the only temp I had ever heard was that composer's failed attempt - and nobody ever remembered to play me their original temp, the one that the network had loved, the one that helped the pilot get a series order! All I had heard was the "wrong" music from the guy they wanted to fire, and I was operating under the assumption that this was as close to "right" as they had ever gotten, when in fact it was even further away from "right" than their original temp had been! When the post supervisor found out that the editor and show runner never went all the way back to the original temp (that everyone had loved) she was beside herself - to her this was a total failure of production logistics! Aka: how not to do it. And nobody thought to mention "Michael Clayton" to me, or had the communication skills to describe the desired result as "muted, subdued, and subtle, but still tense and propelling the scene forward." - which is how I described what I was about to start singing in the edit suite, that made the director say, "Yeah, that's what it needs. What would that sound like?" and so I started beat-boxing the Michael Clayton cues.

When I finally got to "So... like a Michael Clayton vibe?" I was like, "That's all you needed to say. Just say the words Michael Clayton and I know exactly what you mean." (Not that I could actually pull it off, but at least I'd have known what they meant.) In the end, it was such a struggle to get to that point that I was like, "Man, it shouldn't take us four tries to get it right, maybe I'm not your guy." And as it turned out I was not their guy - maybe not entirely because I had the wrong music, but also partially because they had a hard time knowing / deciding / explaining what they wanted, and we didn't have enough in common that I was able to read their minds well enough.

So, being able to read the minds of the directors / producers / writers / actors and "get the vibe" even if you don't know the entire arc of the story and where a given scene fits into that arc, is going to be a part of the skill set. You won't always, or even often, be operating off your own partially-informed guesses - but it will happen eventually. Maybe it will be in season five of a series, as it's winding down, show runners are being swapped in and out, and people are looking exhausted and operating on auto-pilot - and maybe it will be on a scene that nobody's really paying all that much attention to because they have bigger fires to extinguish. But when you get it right with little to no direction, and the show runner says, "Wow, you killed it on that scene. Really made it work better and helped it feel as important as it should have been. Sorry we kind of glossed over that one in the spotting session, good job though." - that's when good guessing becomes a valuable skill.


----------



## Michael Stibor

Oh man, I forgot about that Michael Clayton score! It’s all I listened to for about four months after it came out. I always marvelled at how “neutral” it was (don’t know how else to say it) and yet impactful.


----------



## charlieclouser

mikefrommontreal said:


> Oh man, I forgot about that Michael Clayton score! It’s all I listened to for about four months after it came out. I always marvelled at how “neutral” it was (don’t know how else to say it) and yet impactful.



It's so good. That big swell as Tom Wilkinson is dazed and wandering in Time Square, and then he sees the uNorth video playing and figures out what he's going to do, and then the music swells and builds, but somehow just stays on a single chord with no apparent "note-on events" but still gets bigger and bigger, only to stop exactly on the cut to the Keyserson's farm, but with just a tiny bit of reverb ringing out over the cut - perfect. And those tension cues with the underwater filtered drums.... Damn that JNH!

I've watched that damn movie so many times I could probably do the ADR for every character from memory. My wife is like, "Ugh. Michael Clayton? AGAIN?!?!" 

Another similar movie, with a similarly minimal approach to the score is Syriania - also starring Clooney, but with a score by Alexandre Desplat. So simple, so good. The build-up to the terrorist boat explosion is similar to the Times Square scene in Clayton, and the way the sound fades out, being gradually replaced by a super-gentle score swell, only to cut to a blank white screen on the explosion, is so good - and they ripped it off with an accuracy of 90% on the finale of Homeland. Couldn't help themselves I guess. Can't say I blame 'em.


----------



## NYC Composer

Charlie-your posts in this thread are fabulous and I’ve enjoyed every one of them. Let me take issue with one thing.

When you did your demos for that big show and ended up losing out to the guy who put up the cash for the orchestra, you had an in-a “producer friend.” It wasn’t a cold call styled competition with EVERY WRITER IN THE WORLD. There’s a huge difference. If i have a personal/business connection for a gig, I’ll knock myself out and work a stupid amount of time gratis, because it’s a real, day to day working composer shot. So if you think my approach is sophomoric, ok, but there’s some methodology behind it.

On the other hand, you’re Charlie Clouser and I ain’t, so if y’all want to hit Charlie’s heights, best listen to him. 

Edit-I loved Michael Clayton and I thought Syriana was the of the best films I’ve ever seen. Why it isn’t hailed constantly as thoughtful and brilliant, I just don’t get it.


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## TravB

Charlie... thank you SO MUCH for your detailed response. I really appreciate the insight, and understand/agree with what you outlined. So I guess we're on our own for this particular score competition, and that will certainly add to our experience for future similar situations. However, unlike your back-and-forth conversations with directors, we don't have the opportunity to keep trying until we get it right -- just one entry, only one chance to get it right. Which is why I was hoping Spitfire would supply at least a couple of sentences of emotional vision or desired outcome for the scene. Again, many thanks for the time and experience you give to this forum!


----------



## Consona

TravB said:


> I've posted this topic on Spitfire's Facebook page and in a direct message to them... no reply/comment from anyone, so this is my last attempt. Apologies for not having entered a scoring contest before... or perhaps I'm overthinking it. Here goes...
> 
> How does any film composer even begin to write music for a scene without direction or notes from the Director or Producers? I'm inquiring because in my humble opinion, the music MUST serve the STORY. However, as I hope we all could agree, what one sees on the screen with regards to story is largely subjective -- but here is why Director's notes during a spotting session are so critical -- the Director explains EXACTLY what aspect(s) of the story is moving forward in the scene and how music can supplement and enhance that intent.
> 
> My point is for this competition, without Director's notes, how we can know what to score? Are we to simply guess and just hope we've interpreted the scene with the same intent as the Director?


Just shows you how much they care, or maybe it's their modus operandi, "just put some generic actiony music there, I have two young chicks ready for an audition here, cya..." (Too much snark for this forum? Sorry, maybe I've watched Ricky's awards hostings for too many times. )

There's some big hits + synth pattern at the beginning, then the whole thing is taken over by Valkyries, who of course do their own thing and have nothing in common with what's happening on the screen, in terms of action and characters except for the one who's responsible for their presence, I guess?..

Yea, it's rather funny having a 4 minutes clip without any context to score. Even the fricking Independents' Day mockbuster Mike Verta was scoring had director's notes.


----------



## Fitz

charlieclouser said:


> I had a situation where I spent about a week doing a set of three audition cues for a feature, and lost out on the gig to someone who spent their own cash to record a real orchestra just for the audition! Yes, that composer tacked those recordings onto the end of their weekly full-orchestra sessions for a big cable series they were on the third season of, but still, they had to pay for those extra few hours -it's not like the music contractor would let that slide for free, and at that level it's not like he could pretend those cues were for the show that was on the books and "oops, we didn't use them for the show so I used them as a demo for something else". That ain't gonna fly. So I wasn't surprised or disappointed when my one-week all-in-the-box audition didn't beat out a full orchestra. And I didn't get the gig. No biggie. In the end that composer spent WAY more doing the actual score with a full orchestra than the fee they received. I am friends with one of the producers who told me that, yeah, in the end the composer was upside-down on that gig for hundreds of thousands, but felt it was a fun project and a good opportunity and was therefore worth it to him (although he didn't do the sequel.)



Charlie,
I'm almost positive I know who you are talking about, and it's so funny that this is what pitching for projects has become. Sure, this composer got the gig, but this type of pitching seems like such a race to the bottom.


----------



## charlieclouser

NYC Composer said:


> When you did your demos for that big show and ended up losing out to the guy who put up the cash for the orchestra, you had an in-a “producer friend.” It wasn’t a cold call styled competition with EVERY WRITER IN THE WORLD. There’s a huge difference. If i have a personal/business connection for a gig, I’ll knock myself out and work a stupid amount of time gratis, because it’s a real, day to day working composer shot. So if you think my approach is sophomoric, ok, but there’s some methodology behind it.



Well. sure, I had an "in" on that gig I lost, but it was by no means a sure-shot. The pitch to me was literally, "Dude we've got a movie that might be right up your alley if you want to take a stab at it, but you're gonna have to demo for it, but so is everybody else. Only thing is it's short money and it's an all-in fee, plus I think they want an orchestra, so you'll have to do it overseas or eat the difference, it's gotta be a non-union buy-out. Can't guarantee anything but if you want to take a look at it...." 

It's entirely likely that I wasn't ever seriously in the running, and that my producer friend shoe-horned me into the mix while the director and other producers had never heard of me, or had heard of me and very much did not want what I did, but were going to let me take a swing at it just to be diplomatic. But I figured, hell, why not take a look at it, it's only a few days' work. I didn't have a show on the air and had the time, so.... Three scenes, three cues - one small, one medium, one large.

And I'm not thinking anyone's approach is sophomoric, I'm just relating my experience as I moved through the industry. I can't remember ever being paid a demo fee on a film or tv project, like... not even once - not sure if that's because all producers are greedy bastards or because it really is too crazy for them to shell out a few grand here and a few grand there for every composer they're asking for submissions. I can imagine it would add up. And in the final analysis, the lack of demo fees from a couple of years of trying will be made up for when you get the fee for the first episode once you do get a gig - unless you're doing real orchestra for every demo that is!


----------



## josephspirits

I'm really surprised there still isn't any more talk about the challenge at the heart of the scene. *SPOILERS FOR WEST WORLD:* 
In that part of the episode Caleb is tripping on a drug called Genre that causes him to experience the world through a series of different genres. So scoring this as a typical sci-fi action or chase scene may be missing the point. At least I'm guessing that's why they chose this scene specifically.


----------



## charlieclouser

TravB said:


> However, unlike your back-and-forth conversations with directors, we don't have the opportunity to keep trying until we get it right -- just one entry, only one chance to get it right.



Yeah, true... but you know what? Once I'm on a series or film, I pitch no-hitters one after the other. On one of my first series I had to submit a score preview of the entire episode every week. I'd burn a DVD in real-time to a hardware DVD recorder, riding the faders of dialog+sfx against my score mixes and have my assistant leave it in the show runner's mailbox the day before the mix, week in and week out, for seven years. And not a word of a lie, most of the time the response from his assistant was, "No score notes this week." I think I was pitching at least 95% no-hitters on that show, maybe had to change or use an alt for one cue every two or three episodes. Not because I'm all that great, but because me and the show runner were on the same page.

A typical conversation between he and I would have no more than four syllables. Not four paragraphs, not four sentences, but four syllables. We'd be sitting in the spotting session and he'd turn around and say, "Big big, fun fun." or "Make us all cry." or "Dead serious." Literally those were my instructions, no exaggeration. But I knew what he meant, so that level of ultra-short shorthand worked.

That's not always been the case, for sure... but it's rare that it's ever more than a quick discussion, and that multi-attempt back-and-forth only happened once, on a gig that I walked away from even though they wanted me to stay and keep slugging. I was like, "It shouldn't be this hard y'all. You need someone who can throw no-hitters one after the other, this versions-one-through-four stuff ain't gonna work week-by-week on a long term basis. It's a hassle for me but more importantly it's a hassle for you. So let's call it." No hard feelings.


----------



## charlieclouser

Fitz said:


> Charlie,
> I'm almost positive I know who you are talking about, and it's so funny that this is what pitching for projects has become. Sure, this composer got the gig, but this type of pitching seems like such a race to the bottom.



Hmmmm... I wonder if you do know though. It's probably not who you'd think. It wasn't someone known for features, especially not for the kind of features I might be up for, even if I was a long-shot outsider. I think that's part of why he'd go to the trouble and expense of demo-ing with an orchestra, and do the score for short money that left him upside-down in the end - so he could build up that IMDB with more features and less tv. Makes sense. Plus I bet his BMI/ASCAP checks are just stupid huge at this point so it ain't a thang to be upside-down once in a while.

So that's an example of a composer not only *not* getting a demo fee, but going out of pocket in a major way for the demo AND winding up upside-down in the end! Like I said, I've never gotten or been offered a demo fee, and I haven't even heard the words "demo fee" since I was friends with some jingle writers back in NYC in the eighties. I never did it, but I know they could get $500 or $1k for a demo back in those days - but they weren't rodeo-roundup demo-derbies, they were established and successful jingle writers with numerous major national campaigns under their belt, so they could get away with asking for it and the ad agencies were still paying for demos back then (no idea if they still do).

I didn't know he was in the running when I went in for the meeting, but if I had I'd probably have been like, "No problem, I'll bury that dude." (under my breath and to myself of course) Hahaha that's not how it worked out at all!


----------



## Michael Stibor

josephspirits said:


> I'm really surprised there still isn't any more talk about the challenge at the heart of the scene. *SPOILERS FOR WEST WORLD:*
> In that part of the episode Caleb is tripping on a drug called Genre that causes him to experience the world through a series of different genres. So scoring this as a typical sci-fi action or chase scene may be missing the point. At least I'm guessing that's why they chose this scene specifically.


I’m surprised too. I’ve watched a few submissions and so far I haven’t seen any that acknowledge the “genre” part of it. Most have seemed like one long action clip (albeit very well done).

I’d never seen the show before but it was clear to me that the Valkyries part was important, and so I did some research to find out what the heck was going on. And like, not a lot of research, just a couple articles, and a few YouTube recap videos to understand the context a little more. I’m surprised this is lost on so many people, as well as those mentioning the lack of “direction” to go along with the clip.

In any other profession when you’re applying for a job, it’s important to do some background research. Research into the company, into the position, etc. So why is this any different? And I’m not trying to stand on my soapbox here. Like I said, I really did the bare minimum, but it was enough that I don’t need “direction” or scoring notes to get it done.


----------



## José Herring

charlieclouser said:


> It's so good. That big swell as Tom Wilkinson is dazed and wandering in Time Square, and then he sees the uNorth video playing and figures out what he's going to do, and then the music swells and builds, but somehow just stays on a single chord with no apparent "note-on events" but still gets bigger and bigger, only to stop exactly on the cut to the Keyserson's farm, but with just a tiny bit of reverb ringing out over the cut - perfect. And those tension cues with the underwater filtered drums.... Damn that JNH!


To put in a plug for my old friend, much of the sound design, loops, ect were done by Clay Duncan.


----------



## charlieclouser

josejherring said:


> To put in a plug for my old friend, much of the sound design, loops, ect were done by Clay Duncan.



I mean, I kind of figured it wasn't 100% JNH doing every molecule of filtered loops and stuff. Last time I was at JNH's studio he did have two or three Scandinavian laptop jockeys in the side room churning out tasty pulses for who knows what score, and there was a back room with a gigantic EuroRack modular, maybe that's where Clay was working. Gonna have to meet that guy some day and grill him on what made those sounds. If he tells me it was just slowed-down hip-hop drum loops through a lowpass filter I'm gonna kill myself!


----------



## NoamL

josephspirits said:


> I'm really surprised there still isn't any more talk about the challenge at the heart of the scene. *SPOILERS FOR WEST WORLD:*
> In that part of the episode Caleb is tripping on a drug called Genre that causes him to experience the world through a series of different genres. So scoring this as a typical sci-fi action or chase scene may be missing the point. At least I'm guessing that's why they chose this scene specifically.



Yes!

There was someone here (was it @charlieclouser ?) who said "Score the fear of the rider, not the galloping of the horse."

Aaron Paul's character is the focus of this scene. I think they were going for a "grandeur of destruction" thing where he is experiencing the action through a drug-induced filter that makes it more cinematic. That's where the Ride Of The Valkyries fits in?

Checked out some early entries over lunch.... spotting this scene properly is going to be very important if you want to be competitive. There are some entries that made some interesting & good spotting choices, and a whole bunch of entries that have very poor spotting. They don't change gears with the different beats of the story, they don't carve around dialogue, they don't build momentum, and probably worst of all they don't play off Aaron Paul's reaction shots. Most of the entries just put "vaguely trippy" music during the scenes where Paul's character is tripping out but they don't connect to his awed reaction at the hyper-Nolan-y shots of cars flipping and exploding.

There is an interesting challenge here between how do you make the chase feel faster & more dangerous than it was filmed, while also communicating the character's sense of "awe"/beauty at how cinematic everything is. The Wagner needle drop actually fails pretty badly at balancing those two needs.

Another thing I'm taking away from the early entries is when you go full-bore action drums & synths all the time the scene has nowhere to go. There are some obvious turning points you could hit ("No it's not," or the roof coming off, or Aaron popping his head out the roof) but if the score goes too hard before then, you need a lull before you go back to it.


----------



## charlieclouser

NoamL said:


> There was someone here (was it @charlieclouser ?) who said "Score the fear of the rider, not the galloping of the horse."



Ha! That's a good quote, but it wasn't me, I'm not that wise. Probably was HZ!


----------



## Michael Stibor

NoamL said:


> Another thing I'm taking away from the early entries is when you go full-bore action drums & synths all the time the scene has nowhere to go.


I noticed this as well. Many are going all in from minute one. Which makes sense, in a way. If I’m getting shot at, my adrenaline level would be at 100%. However like you said, the problem this poses is that the music has nowhere to go.

Also, and maybe this is just me, but it seems like there is a slight tongue in cheek humour to adding Vakyries to this scene. It almost seems intentionally funny, or at least, surreal. I haven’t seen that element yet. Though of course, no one is being asked to recreate the same feel necessarily. But variety from just all-in balls to the wall action music from the get go could be a difference maker to the judges!


----------



## Jaap

Awesome posts Charlie (and Hans)! Really looking forward to have some fun with this clip and making sounds for it. Maybe it ends up just having fun doing it for myself and maybe submitting it, dunno yet, but what a lovely oppertunity to work with such a scene and as big fan of Westworld (and everything Jonathan Nolan creates btw, really loved Person of Interest, which also has a great score by Ramin), this is really a nice thing that has been created!


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## José Herring

charlieclouser said:


> I mean, I kind of figured it wasn't 100% JNH doing every molecule of filtered loops and stuff. Last time I was at JNH's studio he did have two or three Scandinavian laptop jockeys in the side room churning out tasty pulses for who knows what score, and there was a back room with a gigantic EuroRack modular, maybe that's where Clay was working. Gonna have to meet that guy some day and grill him on what made those sounds. If he tells me it was just slowed-down hip-hop drum loops through a lowpass filter I'm gonna kill myself!


I think Clay mostly worked from his own studio at Remote Control which is where I met him and spent some time (on and off for 2 years) being a fly on the wall/assistant/intern/ghost ect.. We never did define my roll because I had my own projects going on back then so I was always kind of dipping in and out. I heard the original sounds he did for Michael Clayton and they were tasty. Really, really good. Like my jaw dropped. I can't say enough good things about him. I gush. He's one of the few dudes that he'd play me a sound or loop and I'd be like, what the hell was that?!!! Earth shaking.

He has since left RC for many years now though.

I hope you do meet him. You guys would get a long great. He's moved out of LA now and lives in his home state of Mississippi, but he's still churning out sounds for the movies.

Oh, and if I remember correctly he has NIN tatooted on his forearm.


----------



## CT

NoamL said:


> There was someone here (was it @charlieclouser ?) who said "Score the fear of the rider, not the galloping of the horse."



I thought that was a Jerry quote!


----------



## NoamL

The post was by @Terry93D (link) credit where due :D does sound like something Goldsmith would say!


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## CT




----------



## charlieclouser

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Respectfully Mr. Clouser, this fails to persuade.



Meh. Not trying to persuade.

Do whatever. Enter or don't, I care not. If you feel it doesn't represent an opportunity, then don't do it. 

Lots of people will, maaayyyyybeeee someone will catch a lucky break, and more than likely a whole bunch of entrants will someday say to themselves, for one reason or another, "I'm glad I did that contest thing even though I didn't win anything."

Maybe they'll be glad they entered because it helped their career, maybe someone saw and liked their non-winning submission on YouTube, maybe it helped them to build their skills by solving a real-world scoring problem, or maybe just because it helped them refine the mix levels in their template or finally figure out how to program smooth tempo ramps in Cubase.

I doubt that many entrants will be thinking, "I never should have submitted for that contest thing."

Opportunity may knock, but it's always better to be fully dressed when you open the door. 

I think I can faintly hear the sound of knocking. Maybe they're knocking on the wrong door. Maybe they're looking for someone else. But what harm could there be in throwing on pants and a shirt and answering the door?

In this business nobody's going to break down your door looking for you, unless you give them a damn good reason to push aside the legions of aspirants and come find you. 

There's almost nothing easier to do than to remain undiscovered. That takes no effort at all.


----------



## Terry93D

NoamL said:


> The post was by @Terry93D (link) credit where due :D does sound like something Goldsmith would say!


I appreciate being credited with it, but I poached it from someone else. I can't remember who, though - it was either Goldsmith or Elmer Bernstein.


----------



## merlinhimself

Do you think every submission will be viewed or is there a chance theyll view the first like 1000 most viewed and call it a day? Some competitions that run like that seem like such a downer, dont get me wrong, this seems like a good time to score even if just for myself!


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## merlinhimself

charlieclouser said:


> There's almost nothing easier to do than to remain undiscovered. That takes no effort at all.



Thanks for all the awesome advice and words! (not just this quote)


----------



## NYC Composer

A slightly frustrated response:

Dear Charlie,

I’ve been a working composer for 40 years. I have earned an upper middle class income over that time. I still make a bit of an income in the biz at 65 .Would you suggest I put my time into a competition against a bazillion composers with no personal connection or advocate? How would that equate with “fun” for me?

I respectfully suggest you might better target your very good advice towards those who have had no shot up til now.

Edit-and btw, I’m not expecting to be “paid for a demo.” That ship sailed long ago.


----------



## goalie composer

charlieclouser said:


> Opportunity may knock, but it's always better to be fully dressed when you open the door.



LOVE IT!


----------



## charlieclouser

NYC Composer said:


> I respectfully suggest you might better target your very good advice towards those who have had no shot up til now.



That's who I *am* targeting. For the most part, that's who is on this thread, people interested in and arguing about the merits and pitfalls of submitting an entry to that contest.

I responded to your post where you quoted one of mine and raised a topic for further discussion. Fair enough and fine. But how would I know whether you have experience or not, so I can avoid replying to you and only responding to those who are just starting out? Not like I can hit IMDB and search for people by their forum handles. I managed to figure out that Rctec is often Hans posting under a handle, but other than that, who knows who's who on here? I have no clue. So read or scroll past, your choice.

Anyway, forum talk is cheap and my posts are both cheap and long, so I operate under the assumption that most experienced folks will see the length of my typical posts and just scroll on by, rather than digging through them for tidbits of advice, which I can't really aim to give. The only thing that makes sense for me to do is relate my experiences, warts and all. If I could have read first-hand accounts of the trials and tribulations of someone in the biz when I was just starting out I would have found it valuable - hell, I still read entire threads just in case HZ chimes in with some knowledge nuggets.

But I had no such resources available as I tried to find my way. I've only worked (briefly, in the early 1990's) for one composer who was as much of a slacker and oddball as I am, so that wasn't much of a source of life lessons other than, "Save 2/3 of your fees because you'll probably be out of work 2/3 of the time like I am" and "Never ever ever be late or make an excuse." That's the sum total of what I learned. Well, that and how cues are numbered. I wish I could have scrolled through war stories, template setup threads, and abstract artistic discussions like those darn kids can today. 

Now tell 'em to get off my lawn!


----------



## dzilizzi

NYC Composer said:


> A slightly frustrated response:
> 
> Dear Charlie,
> 
> I’ve been a working composer for 40 years. I have earned an upper middle class income over that time. I still make a bit of an income in the biz at 65 .Would you suggest I put my time into a competition against a bazillion composers with no personal connection or advocate? How would that equate with “fun” for me?
> 
> I respectfully suggest you might better target your very good advice towards those who have had no shot up til now.
> 
> Edit-and btw, I’m not expecting to be “paid for a demo.” That shipped sailed long ago.


I would be very happy if you decided not to waste your time doing this competition. Just saying.  

Truthfully, I think these competitions are more for non-pros or those who are just getting started. It's a great way to learn and practice this stuff. Because I doubt anyone is going to get a job out of this. 8Dio has done a few. Sonokinetic has one going on now also. This one is just a little more cool because Spitfire got approval to use an actual part of a show, rather than the usual bits of video strung together.


----------



## Michael Stibor

NYC Composer said:


> A slightly frustrated response:
> 
> Dear Charlie,
> 
> I’ve been a working composer for 40 years. I have earned an upper middle class income over that time. I still make a bit of an income in the biz at 65 .Would you suggest I put my time into a competition against a bazillion composers with no personal connection or advocate? How would that equate with “fun” for me?
> 
> I respectfully suggest you might better target your very good advice towards those who have had no shot up til now.
> 
> Edit-and btw, I’m not expecting to be “paid for a demo.” That shipped sailed long ago.


I for one have found this thread, and Charlie’s insights in particular to be some of the most incredibly useful and pertinent info I’ve ever gotten from this place. If you’re not interested in the contest or don’t feel that his advice is relevant to you, I can appreciate that. But please don’t drive him away with your cynicism.


----------



## NYC Composer

charlieclouser said:


> forum talk is cheap and my posts are both cheap and long,


Your posts are gold and much appreciated. 

Mine are cheap and aimed at presenting the point of view of a much lesser but perhaps more typical and middling professional, Lawyers, doctors and well paid coders have different standards. I still like to monetize my music writing time, at least a little....cheers!


----------



## NYC Composer

mikefrommontreal said:


> I for one have found this thread, and Charlie’s insights in particular to be some of the most incredibly useful and pertinent info I’ve ever gotten from this place. If you’re not interested in the contest or don’t feel that his advice is relevant to you, I can appreciate that. But please don’t drive him away with your cynicism.



Charlie is clearly not a shrinking violet, and my opinions are not invalid. Relax.


----------



## Michael Stibor

NYC Composer said:


> Charlie is clearly not a shrinking violet, and my opinions are not invalid. Relax.


I’m most definitely relaxed. It seems you’re the one who’s getting bent out of shape over a little sample library contest you’re not even planning on competing in.


----------



## NYC Composer

mikefrommontreal said:


> I’m most definitely relaxed. It seems you’re the one who’s getting bent out of shape over a little sample library contest you’re not even planning on competing in.


Totally not bent out of shape, just framing the conversation from a different perspective and trying to be understood, the end.

“Don’t chase Charlie away!!” Ummm. Ok.


----------



## charlieclouser

NYC Composer said:


> Totally not bent out of shape, just framing the conversation from a different perspective and trying to be understood, the end.
> 
> “Don’t chase Charlie away!!” Ummm. Ok.



No sweat dude, it's all good. 

And try as they might, nobody could chase me away from this place! 

(unless it turned entirely into a forum discussing Cubase on Windows and how to sound like John Williams, in which case I'm out!)

And I'm very much a middling professional - yeah, I've had some hits, but also plenty of misses, and I probably work only about 1/3 of the time, just as my original mentor predicted.


----------



## Soundlex

redlester said:


> They will take the 100 most viewed entries and put them into their wonky Tombola to draw the winner.


Yes, probably...


----------



## NYC Composer

charlieclouser said:


> No sweat dude, it's all good.
> 
> And try as they might, nobody could chase me away from this place!
> 
> (unless it turned entirely into a forum discussing Cubase on Windows and how to sound like John Williams, in which case I'm out!)
> 
> And I'm very much a middling professional - yeah, I've had some hits, but also plenty of misses, and I probably work only about 1/3 of the time, just as my original mentor predicted.


Good man, Sir Charles. You do us all a service here, and I’m proud to have you as a fellow forum member.


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

NoamL said:


> Yes!
> 
> There was someone here (was it @charlieclouser ?) who said "Score the fear of the rider, not the galloping of the horse."
> 
> Aaron Paul's character is the focus of this scene. I think they were going for a "grandeur of destruction" thing where he is experiencing the action through a drug-induced filter that makes it more cinematic. That's where the Ride Of The Valkyries fits in?
> 
> Checked out some early entries over lunch.... spotting this scene properly is going to be very important if you want to be competitive. There are some entries that made some interesting & good spotting choices, and a whole bunch of entries that have very poor spotting. They don't change gears with the different beats of the story, they don't carve around dialogue, they don't build momentum, and probably worst of all they don't play off Aaron Paul's reaction shots. Most of the entries just put "vaguely trippy" music during the scenes where Paul's character is tripping out but they don't connect to his awed reaction at the hyper-Nolan-y shots of cars flipping and exploding.
> 
> There is an interesting challenge here between how do you make the chase feel faster & more dangerous than it was filmed, while also communicating the character's sense of "awe"/beauty at how cinematic everything is. The Wagner needle drop actually fails pretty badly at balancing those two needs.
> 
> Another thing I'm taking away from the early entries is when you go full-bore action drums & synths all the time the scene has nowhere to go. There are some obvious turning points you could hit ("No it's not," or the roof coming off, or Aaron popping his head out the roof) but if the score goes too hard before then, you need a lull before you go back to it.



Jeez, don't give away all the best hints when there's a competition going on...😄


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

charlieclouser said:


> No sweat dude, it's all good.
> 
> And try as they might, nobody could chase me away from this place!
> 
> (unless it turned entirely into a forum discussing Cubase on Windows and how to sound like John Williams, in which case I'm out!)
> 
> And I'm very much a middling professional - yeah, I've had some hits, but also plenty of misses, and I probably work only about 1/3 of the time, just as my original mentor predicted.



You don't need to hear this from me but I've enjoyed some of your lesser-known works too. I know I got goosebumps playing Singularity... especially the school battle and the boss fights. Not sure if you considered it a miss or not, but if I recall right the game wasn't hugely popular; I still enjoyed it.


----------



## Peter Satera

The making of has some interesting creator feelings and comments on it. The fact he is on 'Genre', really does mean anything could be part of this scene. From 2 mins on it doesn't talk about the car chase, so if you're worried about spoilers, probably best not to go beyond that as it's more story based discussion.



As for why would you want to do this? The prizes are great, but I think we have to put that aside as the sheer quantity of entries will be insane. If our tracks don't tickle the first viewer _the right way_, or is differently interpreted to an awesome track which was viewed before it, well, it's unlikely to progress to second viewing. How many times do we see competition finalists and think...I'm surprised _*that*_'s in there? It's subjective. 

Therefore, to me, this has to be for self enjoyment. To pretty much what Charlie and HZ came back to, it's fun, it's play, it's experience if you lack it or think this sort of scene challenges you, or you've never scored a car chase. It's a learning experience too, where other creators might do something you didn't think of.

If you feel your rights are threatened by the competition, it's a chore or it is beneath your expertise, then I don't see the point in coming here and saying that you've not been convinced to participate. If you feel you need _convinced _to do this, then you have your answer.


----------



## Michel Simons

So the series is not about a boy band?


----------



## J-M

Hey, I'm here to just have fun (which is scoring a scene from one of my favorite shows as best as a glorified bedroom composer can) and read Charlie's invaluable posts...

That being said, I HAVE to mention the censored swearing towards the end of the clip. I mean, bunch of people are getting shot to hell but swearing is a no-no? Always cracks me up.


----------



## Michael Stibor

Michel Simons said:


> So the series is not about a boy band?


No, it is. Just not this scene. But that’s why they’re recommending scoring it in the style of NKOTBSB.


----------



## Nate Johnson

Has anyone here finished and uploaded their take yet?


----------



## VinRice

Some very odd and negative reactions to this competition. It's surely immediatley obvious from the people involved that there's no nefarious intent? Whatever.

As a something of a veteran of competitions entries, and winner of none, I would offer the following tips and observations:

a) Do not enter it to win it. Competitions are a lottery and you have no chance of second-guessing what the judges will choose. The value of these things is to provide motivation, provide useful material from which to work, and provide an opportunity to measure yourself against better composers, of which there will be many.

b) Be unique. This is hard. You want to do what you think the judges want, or what a 'professional' would do, or what is current in the medium. The truth is the judges will be bored shitless by hearing endless variations of a similar style and anything that stands apart has a good chance of progressing further. It doesn't have to relate to the style of the actual show. 

c) Contrary to some of the cynics in this thread, every entry will be heard, probably by a set of interns first. In this particular instance I suspect they will be looking for _one thing_ in the first 40 seconds that will enable them to filter out 80% of the entries. That one thing is the pivot in style that _must_ occur on "I think he's changing genres". Without that, you're toast.

d) This comp has had a lot of publicity so there's going to be a lot of great entries. The finalists will all be unique, will all have a humorous genre pivot that threads in and out of the action and will all be well engineered and produced. What will separate the women from the girls will be hitting the physical cue points in a way that flows naturally, and hitting the character psychology cue points in a way that feels 'revealing' for want of a better word.

Good luck and remember, you're not going to win.


----------



## Loïc D

All right, we are all greeted with a free prize with @charlieclouser ’s posts 

This is the reason why I like this forum.

Thanks 🙏


----------



## Michael Stibor

VinRice said:


> ... I suspect they will be looking for _one thing_ in the first 40 seconds that will enable them to filter out 80% of the entries. That one thing is the pivot in style that _must_ occur on "I think he's changing genres". Without that, you're toast.
> 
> Good luck and remember, you're not going to win.


Exactly. And yet, I haven’t heard a single entry that hasn’t just been action music all the way through. Granted, I don’t think I’ve listened to them all, but probably most of them. At this point I’m listening up until the “he’s changing genres” and if the music doesn’t change I move on the next one. I suspect the judges will too.

And yes, like you said, you’re probably not going to win, so have fun with it. Yours will be remembered more for being unique, than creating another professionally done generic action score.


----------



## becolossal

VinRice said:


> c) Contrary to some of the cynics in this thread, every entry will be heard, probably by a set of interns first. In this particular instance I suspect they will be looking for _one thing_ in the first 40 seconds that will enable them to filter out 80% of the entries. That one thing is the pivot in style that _must_ occur on "I think he's changing genres". Without that, you're toast.



The "genre" thing barely made sense in the whole episode and makes even less sense when taken out of context and presented like this. Certainly an opportunity to play heavily into it if you want, but not a dealbreaker – that's just my opinion.

I imagine those doing the filtering will do it much the way I did last night when browsing through YouTube and skipping past every entry that spent the first 30 seconds with the same flautando strings attempting to create tension instead of a sense of urgency. My two cents.


----------



## asherpope

Michel Simons said:


> So the series is not about a boy band?


Can't wait for the dystopian spin off series about a city populated by cyborg young men. I hear it's called 'Boyzone'


----------



## Michael Stibor

becolossal said:


> The "genre" thing barely made sense in the whole episode and makes even less sense when taken out of context and presented like this. Certainly an opportunity to play heavily into it if you want, but not a dealbreaker



Maybe, but using the whole “genre” thing is the best opportunity to stand out from the pack. Otherwise you’re going to be judged on how good you can make rote action music.


----------



## becolossal

mikefrommontreal said:


> Maybe, but using the whole “genre” thing is the best opportunity to stand out from the pack. Otherwise you’re going to be judged on how good you can make rote action music.



Just saying that latching on to the "genre" thing is one approach. It's not the only approach. Nor is 'rote action music' the only alternative.


----------



## Michael Stibor

becolossal said:


> Just saying that latching on to the "genre" thing is one approach. It's not the only approach. Nor is 'rote action music' the only alternative.


Hopefully not. But it’s easy to do, If you’re not careful to avoid it.


----------



## VinRice

NoamL said:


> So... I watched a bunch of the entries! It was interesting to see how everyone approached the scene differently from a pacing or music-editing standpoint.
> 
> I also wanted to step into "judging" and try to experience how the judges will feel. As I watched this scene 50+ times what did I start noticing, how did my expectations of each entry develop, etc. Because the chances are INFINITELY TINY that your cue will be the first or even the 20th time the judges watch this scene.
> 
> Here's what I noticed:
> 
> 1. When an entry started feeling generic or boring to me, I eventually started skipping forward to the first explosion and second explosion. If the score didn't have anything interesting or creative to say there, I turned it off. So I think the beginning of the chase, and the two explosions will be the most-watched part of each entry. *I think the way you score the explosions will be key* to communicating to the judges that you understand this is more than just a generic chase scene.
> 
> 2. This assignment is more difficult than it looks. A lot of people out there are turning in good chase-scene scores but they start falling apart when we get to the explosions and the scores don't do anything with Caleb's reaction. There are other entries that have a more vibed-out feeling playing off Caleb's perceptions & using creative sounds, some of them don't even have percussion during the chase. I liked these more but they all had issues with maintaining momentum during the chase and developing forward musically. *There isn't an entry yet that perfectly balances between the "chase scene" and "inside Caleb's head" ideas.*
> 
> 3. Finally some entries are paced very poorly &* I believe this is the hidden weapon of the eventual semifinalists:* Music editing is IMPORTANT. Some scores began with a really good idea and then just didn't develop, not even writing around dialogue. The entries I enjoyed the most REshaped the scene and made different parts feel like they have different pacing, with creative and non obvious hit points that made me excited with how they changed the flow of a scene I was watching for the umpteenth time. They actually made me see it in a new way. The bad entries had no hitpoints and just scored over everything. *HUGE RED FLAG: If the score started before the shooting* (I mean they introduced heavy drums and synth pulses, not just a high harmonic or something) that was usually a giveaway that this was *not* gonna be a good entry.
> 
> 
> These are the 3 entries I enjoyed the most. Don't click them if you think it's cheating to watch other people's attempts.
> 
> 
> 
> *https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBE3AabyYdk*Clara KoksebyComposer knows how to pace a scene. Doesn’t ever overscore. Gets us inside Caleb’s head without obvious “orch fx” patches. Action is a tad underscored thru the chase. I LOVE the ending. On first explosion composer waits to hit Caleb’s reaction shot, not the explosion itself; on the second explosion composer NAILED the “Oh what a lovely day” approach… this is someone who knows how to do the job. This cue would work in the show with a few big revisions.A-*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Owyagjex330*Adam BrownWell paced. Initially appears cliche but has some original ideas. Some good hit points & carving around dialogue. Missteps towards the end but communicates Caleb’s awe.B+*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC5qe72Z0cM*Emil WaldhauerSubtle. Gets off to a good start with the hang drum stuff. Some interesting, neutral harmonic nuances here. Seems like it misses hitpoints/dialogue in the middle of the scene & goes on too long with the same material. Plays REALLY well over Caleb’s awe. Tasteful synths and instrument choices throughout. Just felt too samey and could have used more development.B+
> 
> 
> Here is the comments I made in realtime "fake-judging" the entries that ended up at the bottom. All names removed to protect the innocent, who at least tried their best.
> 
> Don't read these if you don't wanna see someone shitting on other people's hard work. To be fair, some of these comments are no more kind than feedback I've gotten on some cues sometimes! When it doesn't work, it doesn't work and you just have to rethink.
> 
> I guess you could take away two things from the sheer number of bad entries, either that if you don't make any of the mistakes below you're in with a chance; or that with the number of entries by June 5, that any of us will be absurdly lucky if any judge writes more than a sentence or two reviewing our work. Glass half full or empty?
> 
> 
> Composer says “slightly Dark Knight-inspired,” which it is, in the same way that The Dark Knight was “slightly Dark Knight-inspired.”C-Uses the most grating distortion synths he can find, then drowns them in verb.C-Big-scoring ideas with weird harmonic sensibility, executed horribly.C-Cue starts with balls-to-the-wall DOOM bass and has nowhere left to go.C-Repetitive, obvious, and unhelpfully overbearing score from the “epic youtube trailer-music compilation” school. Transforms the scene into farce.C-Overbearing, sparse synths. The same pulse preset for 4 minutes!C-Huge drums! Silence! Huge drums! Silence!C-Eurovision.C-Goofy. Cliche. Repetitive.C-Stylistically all over the place, none of it good.C-Bad.C-Bad.C-Composer knows how to produce synthwave. Scoring is not for him.D+Drastically underscored. I think this is trying to communicate Caleb’s POV but just doesn’t work as score for most of the cue. I do like the bit where the 1st truck explodes.D+Bad production on goofy, obvious Zimitation ideas.DDoesn’t really have a musical idea but went for it anyway.DAn entry in the “stacking synth presets on top of each other and just muting the music when you can’t find a synth preset for this part of the scene” collection.DRepetitive. Also, repetitive.DGoes too far in the pop/producer direction. The pop approach could have felt like score potentially, but this take on it doesn’t work.DNo.DNot good.DThe sort of crap that would definitely get the producer and director talking about firing you.DNot good.DNot good.DRandom and weird, quickly lost meDPoor production.DNot good.DShouty choir trailer music from 2010.DFat synths, goes nowhere, too slow.DA compendium of badly executed influences, somehow managing to ripoff Randy Newman and Zimmer equally poorly.D-Subpar, subbass submission.D-Heavyocity shoulda never sampled those trash can lids.D-Bizarre & inappropriate. Subpar production.D-Brilliant Hollywood-quality perc performances dropped at random into the scene and covered with shit synths playing nothing in particular.D-Random keyboard noises.FA Whitman sampler of bad synthpulse presets thrown together without much rhyme or reason.FNot score.FNot Score.FNot score.FOne synth preset playing into another synth preset is not score, even if composer recently lost 9 fingers in tragic logging accident.FNot score.FNot Score.FNot Score.FNot Score.FNot Score.F-Every idea is amazingly terrible. An anti-score. Belongs in a museum.F-What composer lacks in ability to write all his instruments in the same time signature, he makes up in valiant application of Valhalla Room at 100% Wet.F-



This is great stuff! 

I suspect we won’t be hearing from any serious contenders though until much closer to the deadline.

I’m enjoying the openness the hype around this comp is bringing. Usually contestants toil away in anonymity and people are only interested (mildly) in the winner. 

I’ll be happy to talk about my own entry when it drops on an unsuspecting universe in a couple of weeks time.


----------



## Pincel

At first I wasn't really interested in participating at all, but I have to say that this thread gave me enough motivation to give it a go! 

Even with the present negativity and skepticism, which I definitely can understand to a degree, this thread is pretty much a goldmine of incredible information and advice.

I'll definitely give it a go and I'm sure I'll learn something valuable in the process. I have ZERO chance to win anything on this thing other than personal satisfaction and experience, and I'm more than fine with that deal. This is a great opportunity to work on those 'spotting' muscles for sure! 

Good to luck to everyone participating!


----------



## sluggo

So did they really use Valkyries in this scene? (I'm only 2 episodes in to S3) I never really have the popular opinion but I really disliked it's usage. It kind of blows my mind directors/producers would choose something like that for a few reasons. 

1. The piece is already associated with Apocalypse Now in such a profound way. I did not detect any nod to Coppola in this scene. (Other than explosions?)
2. Ride of the Valkyries plays so triumphantly and this scene is so NOT triumphant. It's not working in that ironic way either for me. I would not equate this music choice with all the other wonderful covers that Ramin does for the show. 
3. The pacing and rhythm of the scene is not in sync with feel and tempo of Valkyries.
4. It's kind of insulting to the composer. Here's a great scene that is fun to score and instead of giving it to their VERY capable composer, they slugged in some top 40 classical "Hey I know that piece!". 

So, to be clear. I hate the Wagner in this scene. (This has nothing to do with Wagner's personal beliefs on race or nationalism.) It's just the kind of lazy music placement that completely diminishes the role of the composer and personally took me out...way way out, of the scene. 

So I wonder, maybe the producers are really excited to see/hear a TON of original scores to this scene now that the whole Valkyrie thing is over and no one is really handing out emmys for best placement of a German warhorse.


----------



## jononotbono

sluggo said:


> 1. The piece is already associated with Apocalypse Now in such a profound way. I did not detect any nod to Coppola in this scene. (Other than explosions?)



Because he's high on a drug called Genre and the drug makes the user feel specific movie tropes. And because Valkeries is associated with such an iconic action film it is giving the user the feeling that he's in an all time action film. The non diegetic reason is to give the viewers of West World the feeling that the characters are going into "battle" or a "fight" and the viewers associate Valkeries with this being one of the ultimate pieces of music for this.

Or Ramin just thought it was as cool as fuck. Or something.


----------



## sluggo

jononotbono said:


> Because he's high on a drug called Genre and the drug makes the user feel specific movie tropes. And because Valkeries is associated with such an iconic action film it is giving the user the feeling that he's in an all time action film. The non diegetic reason is to give the viewers of West World the feeling that the characters are going into "battle" or a "fight" and the viewers associate Valkeries with this being one of the ultimate pieces of music for this.
> 
> Or Ramin just thought it was as cool as fuck. Or something.



Well, like I said, I'm only 2 episodes in. But at this rate, I'll never complete the series. Do they do this kind of placement throughout the season?

I doubt it was Ramin's decision.


----------



## visiblenoise

sluggo said:


> Well, like I said, I'm only 2 episodes in. But at this rate, I'll never complete the series. Do they do this kind of placement throughout the season?
> 
> I doubt it was Ramin's decision.


You may be interested in reading this: https://www.insider.com/westworld-movie-homages-genre-explained-jonathan-nolan-interview-2020-4

I happen to agree that the Valkyries placement didn't really work out...I mean, it sorta makes sense conceptually after reading that article, but it just didn't feel like the scene was massaged in the writing or the edits to make it fit at all. I actually assumed it was some kind of cheeky temp music. Maybe it makes more sense when watching the entire episode.


----------



## ptram

sluggo said:


> So did they really use Valkyries in this scene?


Probably, the little car is a Mercedes!

Paolo


----------



## ptram

This competition is a great opportunity for testing oneself on a real feature film sequence. It doesn't happen often. Most competitions ask music for art shorts, the type of movie only seen at indie festivals or niche culture specials seen at late night. The type of film I probably love the most, and have scored in my youth.

This is, on the contrary, an exercise on materials professionals work on in the industry. With the problems all (or most) of our current jobs are undergoing, it is a great chance to self-train on something that may become our new job. It is a complicated sequence in a very modern film. Something requiring a subtlety that makes it something totally different from the typical epic trailer music most of us are usually making.

Since I’ve time, due to the current circumstances, I’ll do it. If I can complete it, I’ll be a winner even without gaining any material prize.

Paolo


----------



## VinRice

asherpope said:


> Can't wait for the dystopian spin off series about a city populated by cyborg young men. I hear it's called 'Boyzone'



Genius...


----------



## sluggo

visiblenoise said:


> You may be interested in reading this: https://www.insider.com/westworld-movie-homages-genre-explained-jonathan-nolan-interview-2020-4
> 
> I happen to agree that the Valkyries placement didn't really work out...I mean, it sorta makes sense conceptually after reading that article, but it just didn't feel like the scene was massaged in the writing or the edits to make it fit at all. I actually assumed it was some kind of cheeky temp music. Maybe it makes more sense when watching the entire episode.


Thanks for that link. I guess that fully explains it but like Nolan says himself "It's kind of an amazing thing when you can use a piece of music in a movie so effectively that it almost annihilates anyone else's ability to do that"...but Nolan went for it anyway with Valkyrie. They can't all be slam dunks. 

I now understand the whole drug-->movie reference. So that's on me. I'll have to watch the whole season to really see if this concept of "Explain your story through historical movie-music placement" works. 

I think this may have been a great idea in the pre-production stages but didn't quite make it in post. 
I worked with a director once who really appreciated his editor because the editor would be like "Look, I know you wanted 'XYZ' but this is what you shot...you shot 'ABC' and it's not 'XYZ' so, are you going to force your original idea or are you going to use what you shot?"

What little I have seen of this season has been a lovely tribute to downtown LA's most overshot locations but a nice cameo from the Colburn School of music as the SUV explodes.


----------



## angeruroth

I finally found a bit of time to finish it! 
[VIDEO REMOVED]

It probably is too repetitive and simple, but hey, I managed to throw an organ and a short whistling into the mix! LOL
BTW, one of the best threads in recent times  interesting, fun and informative.
Cheers!


----------



## Pando

Did anyone try this with Yakety Sax??

Play this when they start driving:


----------



## Michael Stibor

Not sure how everyone else feels, but I personally would prefer if people _didn’t_ post their videos here unless it was specifically in reference to a part of the conversation. Might kill a great thread. not my thread though, so just my opinion.


----------



## angeruroth

mikefrommontreal said:


> Not sure how everyone else feels, but I personally would prefer if people _didn’t_ post their videos here unless it was specifically in reference to a part of the conversation. Might kill a great thread. not my thread though, so just my opinion.


Video removed. I thought it was appropriate 'cause it was directly related to the contest, but you may be right


----------



## Michael Stibor

angeruroth said:


> Video removed. I thought it was appropriate 'cause it was directly related to the contest, but you may be right


Oh you didn’t have to do that! Don’t listen to me! What do I know? It was just a thought.


----------



## angeruroth

mikefrommontreal said:


> Oh you didn’t have to do that! Don’t listen to me! What do I know? It was just a thought.


Don't worry about it  As I said, this is one of the most interesting threads in recent times, and you may be right.


----------



## pmcrockett

It would be cool to have a thread for VIC members to post their entries so we could compile them into a YouTube playlist. I intend to spend some time listening to other people's takes on this after I finish with mine, and it would be nice to have a list of music by people I recognize rather than just picking entries to listen to at random.

Maybe I'll make a thread after I finish if no one's beaten me to it by then.


----------



## LamaRose

I like the idea, but scoring a chase scene? Maybe they can get Mike Verta to have an _all-night binger_ reviewing of the entries, lol. Most likely, this will be more about who has the most Arks and BRAAM farts at their disposal.

A much more interesting challenge would have been to score the intro for season 3... you know, creating a memorable theme. 

Still, much kudos to SF, HBO, and the other parties for tossing this out. I'm thinking cricket pads and some big Angry Orchard Green Apple Cider burps for emphasis.


----------



## jacobthestupendous

There's a Competitions section that already has a thread started. That might be a good spot.


----------



## LamaRose

jcrosby said:


> Sure, it probably is crowdsourcing and/or marketing campaign. Brands like this don't sponsor something like this strictly for charity. Taking a crack at this would be fun. Not to mention that if this did make it into a promo it would be quite a nice showreel highlight...
> 
> Everyone's going to have their own perspective on this, I think it's an opportunity for a little fun.



Good thoughts from my favorite Astrocat.


----------



## Laddy

Could you advise me on something? Is it a good idea to duck the music to make room for dialogue etc or is it better to compose in such a way that no ducking is necessary?


----------



## VinRice

Laddy said:


> Could you advise me on something? Is it a good idea to duck the music to make room for dialogue etc or is it better to compose in such a way that no ducking is necessary?



Always the latter, though some volume tweaks are often needed.


----------



## Eptesicus

NoamL said:


> So... I watched a bunch of the entries! It was interesting to see how everyone approached the scene differently from a pacing or music-editing standpoint.
> 
> I also wanted to step into "judging" and try to experience how the judges will feel. As I watched this scene 50+ times what did I start noticing, how did my expectations of each entry develop, etc. Because the chances are INFINITELY TINY that your cue will be the first or even the 20th time the judges watch this scene.
> 
> Here's what I noticed:
> 
> 1. When an entry started feeling generic or boring to me, I eventually started skipping forward to the first explosion and second explosion. If the score didn't have anything interesting or creative to say there, I turned it off. So I think the beginning of the chase, and the two explosions will be the most-watched part of each entry. *I think the way you score the explosions will be key* to communicating to the judges that you understand this is more than just a generic chase scene.
> 
> 2. This assignment is more difficult than it looks. A lot of people out there are turning in good chase-scene scores but they start falling apart when we get to the explosions and the scores don't do anything with Caleb's reaction. There are other entries that have a more vibed-out feeling playing off Caleb's perceptions & using creative sounds, some of them don't even have percussion during the chase. I liked these more but they all had issues with maintaining momentum during the chase and developing forward musically. *There isn't an entry yet that perfectly balances between the "chase scene" and "inside Caleb's head" ideas.*
> 
> 3. Finally some entries are paced very poorly &* I believe this is the hidden weapon of the eventual semifinalists:* Music editing is IMPORTANT. Some scores began with a really good idea and then just didn't develop, not even writing around dialogue. The entries I enjoyed the most REshaped the scene and made different parts feel like they have different pacing, with creative and non obvious hit points that made me excited with how they changed the flow of a scene I was watching for the umpteenth time. They actually made me see it in a new way. The bad entries had no hitpoints and just scored over everything. *HUGE RED FLAG: If the score started before the shooting* (I mean they introduced heavy drums and synth pulses, not just a high harmonic or something) that was usually a giveaway that this was *not* gonna be a good entry.
> 
> 
> These are the 3 entries I enjoyed the most. Don't click them if you think it's cheating to watch other people's attempts.
> 
> 
> 
> *https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBE3AabyYdk*Clara KoksebyComposer knows how to pace a scene. Doesn’t ever overscore. Gets us inside Caleb’s head without obvious “orch fx” patches. Action is a tad underscored thru the chase. I LOVE the ending. On first explosion composer waits to hit Caleb’s reaction shot, not the explosion itself; on the second explosion composer NAILED the “Oh what a lovely day” approach… this is someone who knows how to do the job. This cue would work in the show with a few big revisions.A-*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Owyagjex330*Adam BrownWell paced. Initially appears cliche but has some original ideas. Some good hit points & carving around dialogue. Missteps towards the end but communicates Caleb’s awe.B+*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC5qe72Z0cM*Emil WaldhauerSubtle. Gets off to a good start with the hang drum stuff. Some interesting, neutral harmonic nuances here. Seems like it misses hitpoints/dialogue in the middle of the scene & goes on too long with the same material. Plays REALLY well over Caleb’s awe. Tasteful synths and instrument choices throughout. Just felt too samey and could have used more development.B+
> 
> 
> Here is the comments I made in realtime "fake-judging" the entries that ended up at the bottom. All names removed to protect the innocent, who at least tried their best.
> 
> Don't read these if you don't wanna see someone shitting on other people's hard work. To be fair, some of these comments are no more kind than feedback I've gotten on some cues sometimes! When it doesn't work, it doesn't work and you just have to rethink.
> 
> I guess you could take away two things from the sheer number of bad entries, either that if you don't make any of the mistakes below you're in with a chance; or that with the number of entries by June 5, that any of us will be absurdly lucky if any judge writes more than a sentence or two reviewing our work. Glass half full or empty?
> 
> 
> Composer says “slightly Dark Knight-inspired,” which it is, in the same way that The Dark Knight was “slightly Dark Knight-inspired.”C-Uses the most grating distortion synths he can find, then drowns them in verb.C-Big-scoring ideas with weird harmonic sensibility, executed horribly.C-Cue starts with balls-to-the-wall DOOM bass and has nowhere left to go.C-Repetitive, obvious, and unhelpfully overbearing score from the “epic youtube trailer-music compilation” school. Transforms the scene into farce.C-Overbearing, sparse synths. The same pulse preset for 4 minutes!C-Huge drums! Silence! Huge drums! Silence!C-Eurovision.C-Goofy. Cliche. Repetitive.C-Stylistically all over the place, none of it good.C-Bad.C-Bad.C-Composer knows how to produce synthwave. Scoring is not for him.D+Drastically underscored. I think this is trying to communicate Caleb’s POV but just doesn’t work as score for most of the cue. I do like the bit where the 1st truck explodes.D+Bad production on goofy, obvious Zimitation ideas.DDoesn’t really have a musical idea but went for it anyway.DAn entry in the “stacking synth presets on top of each other and just muting the music when you can’t find a synth preset for this part of the scene” collection.DRepetitive. Also, repetitive.DGoes too far in the pop/producer direction. The pop approach could have felt like score potentially, but this take on it doesn’t work.DNo.DNot good.DThe sort of crap that would definitely get the producer and director talking about firing you.DNot good.DNot good.DRandom and weird, quickly lost meDPoor production.DNot good.DShouty choir trailer music from 2010.DFat synths, goes nowhere, too slow.DA compendium of badly executed influences, somehow managing to ripoff Randy Newman and Zimmer equally poorly.D-Subpar, subbass submission.D-Heavyocity shoulda never sampled those trash can lids.D-Bizarre & inappropriate. Subpar production.D-Brilliant Hollywood-quality perc performances dropped at random into the scene and covered with shit synths playing nothing in particular.D-Random keyboard noises.FA Whitman sampler of bad synthpulse presets thrown together without much rhyme or reason.FNot score.FNot Score.FNot score.FOne synth preset playing into another synth preset is not score, even if composer recently lost 9 fingers in tragic logging accident.FNot score.FNot Score.FNot Score.FNot Score.FNot Score.F-Every idea is amazingly terrible. An anti-score. Belongs in a museum.F-What composer lacks in ability to write all his instruments in the same time signature, he makes up in valiant application of Valhalla Room at 100% Wet.F-



I enjoyed this. Thank you.


----------



## Peter Satera

Stefano's entry is bloody awesome! The big guns are coming!


----------



## NoamL

Laddy said:


> is it better to compose in such a way that no ducking is necessary?



Yes! John Williams masterclass:


----------



## jononotbono

NoamL said:


> Yes! John Williams masterclass:




Noam, you should enter this competition. I would love to hear what you do man. No excuses please.


----------



## Eptesicus

Peter Satera said:


> Stefano's entry is bloody awesome! The big guns are coming!





This is very good, fits the picture nicely and is well produced etc. However its Zimmer's Batman with a few notes and chords in different places. I feel like, they are going to get hundreds of entries like this.

Its very tricky

If anything this is even harder than Ramin's job, because he can go with what you would expect to hear (for the most part) ie brahms, pulsing synths and string ostinatos. For us in this competition, I feel like to have a chance you've got to do something different, but still familiar. The judges might get so bored of hearing "bwaaaaaa, dg dg dg dg dg dg" that they just immediately discount those entries after a while.


----------



## stixman

*Plankton* are the diverse collection of organisms that live in large bodies of water and are unable to swim against a current. The individual organisms constituting *plankton *called plankters (aspiring composers). They provide a crucial source of food to many small and large aquatic organisms, such as bivalves, fish and whales.

Plankton in a fishbowl comes to mind.

We need competitions to help talented aspiring composers break in to the industry IMO


----------



## Laddy

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> .. yet do not seize the opportunity each day brings to continue the perfection of the craft, who slothfully lay about while eating potato chips ..


Yeah, that´s me.


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

Peter Satera said:


> Stefano's entry is bloody awesome! The big guns are coming!



The production is good, but it's not brilliantly spotted - the music is all guns blazing before we've had any real dramatic 'permission' for it. A lot of these entries are just 'here's some cool cinematic music' with no effort to actually read the scene and plot the narrative & character development.


----------



## Peter Satera

Eptesicus said:


> This is very good, fits the picture nicely and is well produced etc. However its Zimmer's Batman with a few notes and chords in different places. I feel like, they are going to get hundreds of entries like this.
> 
> Its very tricky
> 
> If anything this is even harder than Ramin's job, because he can go with what you would expect to hear (for the most part) ie brahms, pulsing synths and string ostinatos. For us in this competition, I feel like to have a chance you've got to do something different, but still familiar. The judges might get so bored of hearing "bwaaaaaa, dg dg dg dg dg dg" that they just immediately discount those entries after a while.



I think the orchestral hits is what makes it sounds like batman-esk, and I suppose I can hear similar progressions. I suppose I don't want to discount due to an artists inspiration, especially since we're all inspired in someway. We really have only some idea of what way they'd like to take this other than "not derived from the existing Westworld score, or any other piece of music." The judges might also be looking for something that fits, rather than is absolutely original but doesn't sit with the scene seen.



Richard Wilkinson said:


> The production is good, but it's not brilliantly spotted - the music is all guns blazing before we've had any real dramatic 'permission' for it. A lot of these entries are just 'here's some cool cinematic music' with no effort to actually read the scene and plot the narrative & character development.



I see what you are getting at, it is very big but listening to the making of, they really loved the chance to push a car chase, and they talk about it like it is massive. I assume you are feeling the music is quite 3rd act climax, rather than 2nd. My draw was that it seems to be one of the only ones so far that has great production rather than static sustains or single pulses. There's clear effort to drive the scene and marriage it with music, rather than others which saunter through it.

I suppose this is why the challenge is awesome. It's hard as nails.


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

It's the harmonic movement at the start too - it's just 'there'. Those sorts of progressions and shifts sound odd at the start of that particular scene - the car has started moving and the music is already trying to 'emote' - it sounds like a trailer or the end of a superhero montage. 

The line 'I think he's switching genres' is really interesting and SUPER important narratively, but the music here...does nothing. It seems to be more interested in itself than in the narrative.

Same with the first volley of gunfire - that's a proper 'raising the stakes' moment, but the music doesn't react. It could stop, or change tempo, shift harmonically, change instrumentation etc - but it just wallpapers over that section.


The drone missile thing is another example - surely you'd want to really play up that moment when it grows wings and starts to home in on the car, but the music doesn't really do anything here.

One thing he's done very well is shot changes and transitions - it gives the scene much more momentum and energy - the light and shade, like the helicopter shot of the vehicles turning the corner is a good example.


----------



## Peter Satera

I see your points made. I do plan to give this a shot, I have plenty of work though pending before I can get to it though. @Richard Wilkinson will you be entering?


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

Peter Satera said:


> will you be entering?


I'm tempted to do it as a fun exercise but I'm super-busy (thankfully) at the mo. Hopefully I can manage a submission!


----------



## josephwmorgan

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> There are key differences on what constitutes opportunity.
> 
> The popular view has opportunity widely defined. It presumably stops short of taking the 1:00AM slot at some Sunset Strip venue in hopes Craig Kallman is present with his quill and ink. Even then, it may be fantasized by some, an opportunity may exist because an attendee may know the CEO of Atlantic Records. It is posited if no tangible benefit materializes, at least it was “fun.”
> 
> Prudence cautions against acting on such fantasies.
> 
> The minority view lies somewhere between the protection of the fragile artist psyche and opportunity cost.
> 
> Much of artistic development endeavors to undo labels plastered on us by parents, teachers, or other artists. Then, there is the battle against comparing oneself to others. (Struggling actors in Los Angeles are famous for wallowing in such plight.)
> 
> Competitions reenforce these bad mental habits. The jury panel impresses their idea on what is right and will not offer constructive feedback to educate failed applicants. The entrants inevitably measure their work against each other with arbitrary standards.
> 
> Then there is opportunity cost—what work can be done instead of a competition? There is in fact a great deal more than orienting one’s creative energies toward amorphous appeasement strategies. To “get their music heard” does one not need much more than a Youtube account and a few posts on the VI-Control forum featuring exceptional work?
> 
> To those of the minority view who abstain from competitions yet do not seize the opportunity each day brings to continue the perfection of the craft, who slothfully lay about while eating potato chips, I rebuke you and implore a loved one beat you with thirty shoes.



Idk man..I think this is more of just: do it if you want, don't do it if you don't want. This seems like a pretty strange dissection of a rather straightforward, harmless way to spend some extra time we all might find ourselves with during this quarantine.


----------



## jacobthestupendous

Pando said:


> Did anyone try this with Yakety Sax??
> 
> Play this when they start driving:



Had the exact same thought.


----------



## jaketanner

Living Fossil said:


> Sorry for the stupid question, but is it actually stated in the t&c that participants give up their right to reuse their submitted tracks if they don't win?


I do not think so..I didn't read anything like that at all..ALl it says is that they can use your submission for the sole purpose of marketing for this particular competition...same as WE can use the video for the same purpose..it goes both ways. I seriously doubt that Spitfire would even post a competition that robbed people of their fear use if NOT a winner...seriously doubt this is the case...hence not sure why people are so upset about giving up their rights, when it never said that.


----------



## Living Fossil

jaketanner said:


> I do not think so..I didn't read anything like that at all..ALl it says is that they can use your submission for the sole purpose of marketing for this particular competition...same as WE can use the video for the same purpose..it goes both ways. I seriously doubt that Spitfire would even post a competition that robbed people of their fear use if NOT a winner...seriously doubt this is the case...hence not sure why people are so upset about giving up their rights, when it never said that.



While i'm not considering taking part in this challenge, that question was rather a rhetorical one...
(it would be absolutely unusual if they did so, therefore i was surprised to see that this option was mentioned at all...)


----------



## jaketanner

Living Fossil said:


> While i'm not considering taking part in this challenge, that question was rather a rhetorical one...
> (it would be absolutely unusual if they did so, therefore i was surprised to see that this option was mentioned at all...)


Yeah thought so too...but a lot of people seem to think that we are giving up our right to use the track if we don't win.


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

jaketanner said:


> a lot of people seem to think that we are giving up our right to use the track if we don't win



This is a weird hangup to have on what is essentially a (fake) pitch. Unless you're pitching for something super generic like a bank advert, the music is likely going to be too specific in terms of structure, tempo etc to easily repurpose if the gig isn't won. Rejected library tracks are easy to submit elsewhere, but a demo for a tv or film cue is probably only going to work for that very specific purpose.


----------



## jaketanner

Richard Wilkinson said:


> This is a weird hangup to have on what is essentially a (fake) pitch. Unless you're pitching for something super generic like a bank advert, the music is likely going to be too specific in terms of structure, tempo etc to easily repurpose if the gig isn't won. Rejected library tracks are easy to submit elsewhere, but a demo for a tv or film cue is probably only going to work for that very specific purpose.


exactly...I've already read that some people think HBO is stock piling a bunch of Westworld style cues for use in other things. I truly doubt this is the case or even crossed their mind...just odd how bad experiences for some people follow them around. I am sure it's happened in the past elsewhere, but a controlled competition like this...doubt there is any fowl play involved....especially when SFA refers to HBO as "friends"...


----------



## chillbot

Richard Wilkinson said:


> but a demo for a tv or film cue is probably only going to work for that very specific purpose.


Agree, and one of the best things that someone could do with this track when it's done is... put it on your demo reel! I think a lot of us in general lack for a good video to show.


jaketanner said:


> I've already read that some people think HBO is stock piling a bunch of Westworld style cues for use in other things.


I followed this thread from the beginning and it seems like this got blown out of proportion early on, it was never this extreme. There was a bit of questioning, which I felt was warranted... it's good to know what you are getting into. But after it was determined that this was a legit contest, people wouldn't let it drop that anyone would even dare question the contest motives. And those posters were more encouraged by a bit of shaming from the higher-ups, well anyway... I see way more posts piling on that anyone would have the audacity to ever question than the actual posts in question regarding questioning.


----------



## chillbot

One other thing I haven't seen mentioned...

Going to come off as a sick brag but I've been around a bit and lucky enough to score many hours of television to picture. This is maybe the first time, ever, that I've scored a picture that was 100% locked and final. I mean often the video doesn't wind up with any significant changes, but it can be the night before the final mix or a few days before the show airs and there is no such thing as "locked" if somebody high up wants to make a change. It's so weird, knowing the video can't be changed actually changed my approach to scoring. Total freedom. Just a perspective to think about as you are working with the video.


----------



## Michael Stibor

Getting back to the actual scoring portion of the contest, I’d be curious to know what struggles people have been having with it, whether it’s style, timing, a particular scene, etc. Maybe we could all help each other out.

For myself, the only issue I’ve had is overthinking my hit points. Trying too hard to make sure every little change in the action is being matched by the music (Well not every scene, but more than I should). I have to constantly take a step back and ask myself if it’s really necessary to do so. It may seem like clever composing, but could actually end up with the adverse effect, and the whole thing becomes disjointed.

I also try to force each section into perfect little (even numbered) measures of 4/4. Though when I get away from it, it’s when the most interesting parts show up!


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

Hit points don't need to be downbeats - I've had a whack at tempo-mapping it and there's loads of hitpoints on weak beats. You can always whack a few 5/4 or 7/8 bars in there. I got plenty!


----------



## wayne_rowley

I've never actually scored to picture before now - it's always been imagined scenes and stories - so I'm going to give it a go! Chance of winning, minus several million I'm sure. But it's a good experience and I am enjoying it. Got my basic musical structure and key themes in place for the scene. Now to flesh them out and mix. Hoping to have it done by next week.

Challenges: trying to fit the scene yet also remain true to what makes my music 'mine'. Challenges of timing, tempo, identifying key aspects of the clip and working out how it all hangs together.

Great fun though!


Wayne


----------



## Michael Stibor

Richard Wilkinson said:


> Hit points don't need to be downbeats


 I know this and yet I constantly have to remind myself of that.


----------



## Michael Stibor

wayne_rowley said:


> I've never actually scored to picture before now - it's always been imagined scenes and stories - so I'm going to give it a go! Chance of winning, minus several million I'm sure. But it's a good experience and I am enjoying it. Got my basic musical structure and key themes in place for the scene. Now to flesh them out and mix. Hoping to have it done by next week.
> 
> Challenges: trying to fit the scene yet also remain true to what makes my music 'mine'. Challenges of timing, tempo, identifying key aspects of the clip and working out how it all hangs together.
> 
> Great fun though!
> 
> 
> Wayne


It IS fun. And I wish others saw it as that. Sure if you do this for a living you’re obviously going to be less inclined. But for me in my position, it’s really dusting off those old scoring chops. And there’s a lot of dust!


----------



## Soundlex

Eptesicus said:


> This is very good, fits the picture nicely and is well produced etc. However its Zimmer's Batman with a few notes and chords in different places. I feel like, they are going to get hundreds of entries like this.
> Its very tricky


Exactly.
It is VERY well produced but it's bigger than The Dark Knight...not what is actually needed in that case. Keeping only 15% of the horns would have made this much more of a fit for that chase. Here you keep wondering when Batman or Captain America is going to show up.
But the production and the mix is top notch! Bravo


----------



## dzilizzi

This has been interesting as I think it's been 2 years since I tried to score to video. In the studio production class I was taking, they taught this for a 30 second commercial. So, remembering how to set it up, mark the hit points, figure out if I need to change BPM through out, etc... has been interesting. 

And I'm finding it hard not to make it mostly percussion/pulsing drones.


----------



## Dave Connor

Brian Nowak said:


> For me it's just that I'd rather spend my time on a product that is mine than trying to compete for something like this. I think it's rather rude to be so preachy about people's concern over their content. Content ownership is the frontier of modern media.


Heavens no! Get your music out there! “I write as a sow piddles” Mozart.

Composers have to be able to turn the crank and generate music - lots of it. If you have an opportunity to launch yourself into a completely new sphere professionally or even if you simply catch the ear of composers already working in that sphere - where’s the harm? If you end up giving away one piece of music so what? Write another thousand by the end of the year.


----------



## angeruroth

mikefrommontreal said:


> I’d be curious to know what struggles people have been having with it


For me the main struggle was the tempo 'cause "my" hit points aren't equally distant and I wanted to match some melodies. Also, the use of accelerandos to increase the car chase feeling messes with the "real" length of the score, even if you don't overuse it, so I've kind of ignored the bar length at some points.

The other thing was that I wanted to mix an organ and a whistling, and the organ easily overkills everything else while the whistling is just a tiny thing. Sadly the electric guitar collides too much with the organ spectrum, and the three things were meant for the trippy stage, so I have to forget about it.

I'm curious about the main tempo others picked and why they decided to use it.


----------



## GNP

angeruroth said:


> For me the main struggle was the tempo 'cause "my" hit points aren't equally distant and I wanted to match some melodies. Also, the use of accelerandos to increase the car chase feeling messes with the "real" length of the score, even if you don't overuse it, so I've kind of ignored the bar length at some points.
> 
> The other thing was that I wanted to mix an organ and a whistling, and the organ easily overkills everything else while the whistling is just a tiny thing. Sadly the electric guitar collides too much with the organ spectrum, and the three things were meant for the trippy stage, so I have to forget about it.
> 
> I'm curious about the main tempo others picked and why they decided to use it.



I would say it depends on your sounds and loops that you are using. A simple bass loop can bring alot of character to this scene based on a particular tempo. Then I believe your tempo mapping should be based on that groove and mood. Instinct should always be first, tempo-planning is second.

I always believe that it depends on the groove and mood that a loop or sound can bring, that should determine the tempo. Not the other way around. Mapping your tempos without listening to the true character and mood of your intended loops and sounds can be very counter-productive. But that's just me!


----------



## Michael Stibor

angeruroth said:


> For me the main struggle was the tempo 'cause "my" hit points aren't equally distant and I wanted to match some melodies. Also, the use of accelerandos to increase the car chase feeling messes with the "real" length of the score, even if you don't overuse it, so I've kind of ignored the bar length at some points.
> 
> The other thing was that I wanted to mix an organ and a whistling, and the organ easily overkills everything else while the whistling is just a tiny thing. Sadly the electric guitar collides too much with the organ spectrum, and the three things were meant for the trippy stage, so I have to forget about it.
> 
> I'm curious about the main tempo others picked and why they decided to use it.


I know that my tempo for the first part hovered about the 142 mark, at least until the car interior shots.


----------



## Michael Stibor

One complaint I’ve heard several times is that the cars don’t drive very fast. I find that the feeling of fast driving usually comes from quick cuts in editing to give that faster feel. So it’s likely that, like in Djawadi’s version, it was never intended to be a high speed chase. Just a thought. 

However, if you _are_ looking to make it seem faster, I've found that not overdoing the tempo is key. Too fast and it actually makes the driving seem _slower!_


----------



## angeruroth

GNP said:


> I would say it depends on your sounds and loops that you are using. A simple bass loop can bring alot of character to this scene based on a particular tempo. Then I believe your tempo mapping should be based on that groove and mood. Instinct should always be first, tempo-planning is second.
> 
> I always believe that it depends on the groove and mood that a loop or sound can bring, that should determine the tempo. Not the other way around. Mapping your tempos without listening to the true character and mood of your intended loops and sounds can be very counter-productive. But that's just me!


Hmm, that's interesting.
I think that's true if you use loops or strong tempo textures 'cause you are looking for that exact sound, but if you don't adapt to the scene rhythms the whole thing falls apart, so I find hard to compose that way while trying to follow a scene.
Writing everything note by note lets you choose when and where things happen in your score, and how long a small step can be, so you can set a variable tempo with hard changes if you like (like a 3/4 melody with a 7/4 bar somewhere, but a 5/4 next time you hear that same melody), and it makes easy to lock into the hit points, but then you can find yourself an 8th apart from the next bar of your melody, and if you follow "your" rhythm you lose the hit point.
In my entry you may notice an 8th missing when the bike enters the scene 



mikefrommontreal said:


> I know that my tempo for the first part hovered about the 142 mark, at least until the car interior shots.


I think I settled for 78 with a +-5 range aprox. for the whole thing, but since I "missed" some 8ths here and there...


----------



## pmcrockett

angeruroth said:


> I'm curious about the main tempo others picked and why they decided to use it.


I'm using 175.551 throughout, with a tiny slowdown near the end. I started with 176, because that was the tempo of one of my early reference tracks -- a Terminator cue -- but I found that 175.551 gave me better hits.

I'm going with a very pulse-based electronic score, though. I think if it were orchestra, I'd have used a lower tempo.

EDIT: Also, since people have mentioned tempo differences inside the car vs. outside the car, I guess it's worth noting that while I'm not changing tempo there, I am mostly in 4/4 inside the car and 6/4 + 5/4 outside the car.


----------



## Fitz

All this time spent ripping other people's submissions apart could be used solving the problem of the scene. Look inward, not outward. Those will likely be the most successful entries. Anyone who enters is valid. No use critiquing.


----------



## HarmonyCore

Did anyone get a confirmation email after submission? I didn't get any. I submitted my cue 2 days ago.


----------



## paoling

When I heard about the competition I thought: oh cool that's the job for a certain library... Then I watched the scene and it was from the third season, which is a kind of Blade Runner which has a completely different tone from the previous series. Ok nevermind. 

Then Pete sent me his entry and it's already my favourite. It has personality and it reflects the "genre" drug that the character portrait by Aaron Paul took in a previous scene. Yes, it is the job for a certain library and I love his entry because it has PERSONALITY. That's what makes the Mandalorian soundtrack so cool, for example.


----------



## Michael Stibor

paoling said:


> When I heard about the competition I thought: oh cool that's the job for a certain library... Then I watched the scene and it was from the third season, which is a kind of Blade Runner which has a completely different tone from the previous series. Ok nevermind.
> 
> Then Pete sent me his entry and it's already my favourite. It has personality and it reflects the "genre" drug that the character portrait by Aaron Paul took in a previous scene. Yes, it is the job for a certain library and I love his entry because it has PERSONALITY. That's what makes the Mandalorian soundtrack so cool, for example.



Although it might lose a little bit in the intensity department, it’s definitely my favourite as well so far for the same reason. It stands out!


----------



## angeruroth

paoling said:


> I love his entry because it has PERSONALITY. That's what makes the Mandalorian soundtrack so cool, for example.


It indeed has, and it's one of the most enjoyable I've seen so far. Fun to watch (sadly I can't say that about most, but I haven't seen a lot) with ups and downs, and a satisfactory ending.
Sometimes I can't hear the voice, but that's easy to fix and the score is great.
Congrats to Pete!


----------



## demedex

Hi guys!

Just registered to submit a problem about this competition.

I heard of this competition on 4th, I downloaded the files: the "no-music" 720p file was .mov a 322,9 Mb file, that last 4.16 minutes.

Since I thought there was some problems whit my download (I'll explain later) today I repeated the download from the link in the spitfire site. I noticed that the files are changed, now the "no-music" 720p file is a .mp4 of 370,9 Mb file that last less, 4.06 minute.

It has the same content, but the playback is faster.

I also noticed that in this video  the video being used is the .mov that last 4.16.

I also noticed that who has already done the submission are using the 4.16, less of them are using the 4.06.

Another issue, that might be subjective: in both files at some points ( 00.53 and 01.03 in the 4.16 minutes file are good examples) there are some audio glitches that are not presents in the file whit music. Really high in volume, that's strange. These are present even in the submission I heard, so its not a problem whit my DAW or quick time player.

Asking to the support they're saying that they are not hearing this glitches. Maybe there are not glitches in the music files because the music cover them.

Thanks for the answers


----------



## paoling

demedex said:


> Hi guys!
> 
> Just registered to submit a problem about this competition.
> 
> I heard of this competition on 4th, I downloaded the files: the "no-music" 720p file was .mov a 322,9 Mb file, that last 4.16 minutes.
> 
> Since I thought there was some problems whit my download (I'll explain later) today I repeated the download from the link in the spitfire site. I noticed that the files are changed, now the "no-music" 720p file is a .mp4 of 370,9 Mb file that last less, 4.06 minute.
> 
> It has the same content, but the playback is faster.
> 
> I also noticed that in this video  the video being used is the .mov that last 4.16.
> 
> I also noticed that who has already done the submission are using the 4.16, less of them are using the 4.06.
> 
> Another issue, that might be subjective: in both files at some points ( 00.53 and 01.03 in the 4.16 minutes file are good examples) there are some audio glitches that are not presents in the file whit music. Really high in volume, that's strange. These are present even in the submission I heard, so its not a problem whit my DAW or quick time player.
> 
> Asking to the support they're saying that they are not hearing this glitches. Maybe there are not glitches in the music files because the music cover them.
> 
> Thanks for the answers



Seems like a 24 fps (or 23.96 fps) vs 25 issue. If you do the math, a 4.16 video at 24 fps becomes a 4.06 video at 25 fps. 24 fps is the "cinematic" format as default. So if you can convert the 25 fps video to 24 fps without frame interpolation (or something that mantains the duration), you should have it.


----------



## demedex

paoling said:


> Seems like a 24 fps (or 23.96 fps) vs 25 issue. If you do the math, a 4.16 video at 24 fps becomes a 4.06 video at 25 fps. 24 fps is the "cinematic" format as default. So if you can convert the 25 fps video to 24 fps without frame interpolation (or something that mantains the duration), you should have it.


In other words I should continue to use the file that last 4.16 minutes?

*edit: Reaper, my DAW, doesn't tell me anything when I put file inside the project.

Thank you for answering, I didn't know about this kind of issues. Still unclear why they changed the files from the Wetransfer link.


----------



## paoling

Yes. The 4.16 minutes should be the right one, I guess! But it is not Fluffy competition! :D
But it sounds like a conversion problem from SA.


----------



## jononotbono

paoling said:


> Yes, it is the job for a certain library



What library are you talking about? I hate all this code.


----------



## asherpope

jononotbono said:


> What library are you talking about? I hate all this code.


Agreed. Also I'm guessing that standout entries won't simply rely on using an epic library like Ark 1 etc. I'm sure they'll be swamped with knock off 2 Steps From Hell submissions and I imagine the entries that grab attention will be a little more experimental than that


----------



## Nemoy

jononotbono said:


> What library are you talking about? I hate all this code.


Surely it must be the Kazoo library. You didn't know? It's the secret weapon.


----------



## josephspirits

jononotbono said:


> What library are you talking about? I hate all this code.



If you go to the Fluffy Audio website I think you'll figure it out, no decoder ring needed!


----------



## jononotbono

Nemoy said:


> Surely it must be the Kazoo library. You didn't know? It's the secret weapon.



For Isle of Wight bands. Yes.


----------



## jononotbono

josephspirits said:


> If you go to the Fluffy Audio website I think you'll figure it out, no decoder ring needed!



I understand now. Secret is safe with me.


----------



## Dr.Quest

paoling said:


> When I heard about the competition I thought: oh cool that's the job for a certain library... Then I watched the scene and it was from the third season, which is a kind of Blade Runner which has a completely different tone from the previous series. Ok nevermind.
> 
> Then Pete sent me his entry and it's already my favourite. It has personality and it reflects the "genre" drug that the character portrait by Aaron Paul took in a previous scene. Yes, it is the job for a certain library and I love his entry because it has PERSONALITY. That's what makes the Mandalorian soundtrack so cool, for example.



I like it because it really addresses the Genre issue which I feel most people aren't even acknowledging. I do think it could have switched up again and been not as on the nose spagetti-wise all through out but good job!


----------



## angeruroth

asherpope said:


> Agreed. Also I'm guessing that standout entries won't simply rely on using an epic library like Ark 1 etc. I'm sure they'll be swamped with knock off 2 Steps From Hell submissions and I imagine the entries that grab attention will be a little more experimental than that


Something like this?
pianobook - Church Steinway, by Richard Luke (www.pianobook.co.uk/library/church-steinway)
Spitfire - BDT, Tundra, Albion One
*8dio - Misfit Whistling
Project Organ, by @Nils Neumann (https://vi-control.net/community/threads/project-organ-church-organ-freebie.61994/)
Samplephonics - Leeds Town Hall Organ*


----------



## jononotbono

I guess as no one has said it yet I will. 

Watching Aaron Paul on drugs again is rather heart warming.


----------



## VinRice

I though Aaron Paul's acting this season was outstanding. Suits him down to the ground. Nobody does 'inner turmoil' and 'deep confusion' quite like him. He's clearly up for next season as well.


----------



## angeruroth

[REMOVED; it's now in the spinoff thread]


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

angeruroth said:


> Hmm, since now we have commented some entries, if nobody objects, I'd love to hear what you think about mine:




Very nice orchestration! IMO, it's too laid back for the scene, needs more urgency.


----------



## Eptesicus

paoling said:


> When I heard about the competition I thought: oh cool that's the job for a certain library... Then I watched the scene and it was from the third season, which is a kind of Blade Runner which has a completely different tone from the previous series. Ok nevermind.
> 
> Then Pete sent me his entry and it's already my favourite. It has personality and it reflects the "genre" drug that the character portrait by Aaron Paul took in a previous scene. Yes, it is the job for a certain library and I love his entry because it has PERSONALITY. That's what makes the Mandalorian soundtrack so cool, for example.




This is a cool idea and well executed, but it feels rather flat in places and if I'm brutally honest, I hated the ending.

Still very good though (and probably better than what i am going to come up with )


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

angeruroth said:


> Hmm, since now we have commented some entries, if nobody objects, I'd love to hear what you think about mine:


I agree with Wolfie2112 - it sort of floats over the scene and doesn't react to the big moments in the edit or the drama. You need to look at the scene a few times and plant your flags on the big, important moments - the opening gunshots, Aaron Paul tripping out, the most impressive cuts in the edit, the homing missile thing etc

All of these are story beats that the music needs to at least acknowledge, if not pre-empt, or react to, or play against etc.


----------



## jononotbono

Evan Rachel Wood's acting is amazing throughout the show but man, her best moment of acting is just after this scene when Caleb changes genre into Romance and he's lovingly staring at Delores, not firing at the enemy, and Delores turns her head and looks at him. And in that look she moves her eyes before firing back at the enemy. Such an amazing moment.


----------



## angeruroth

[REMOVED; it's now in the spinoff thread]


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

angeruroth said:


> Did I miss a big hit point, or maybe was I too subtle?


Looks like you've definitely noticed the right things - I think you just need to be more direct and on the nose with those moments.


----------



## chillbot

EDIT:

Mike moved my post to here. It's weird to me to have a duplicate post in two threads so I'm erasing this one, please reply here.


----------



## LamaRose

Haven't listened to any of the offerings as of yet... but having downloaded the scene, I think it works really well on it's own... live-action movies are becoming oversaturated with musical _feints,_ imho. A good action sequence should put you in the scene whereas adding music often puts it back on the screen.


----------



## Mike Greene

*MODERATOR NOTE* - There is some great discussion here about how to score this scene. (as opposed to the ethics debate.) It's too bad that those posts are getting lost here, so I've created a new thread and copied those posts into this new thread.

For posts related to the composition/orchestration of this scene, please post there.


----------



## Nate Johnson

Mike Greene said:


> *MODERATOR NOTE* - There is some great discussion here about how to score this scene. (as opposed to the ethics debate.) It's too bad that those posts are getting lost here, so I've created a new thread and copied those posts into this new thread.
> 
> For posts related to the composition/orchestration of this scene, please post there.



Yes! Thank you!


----------



## Rossy

Since my wife saw how much fun I was having, as a gift, she got me spitfire BBC Symphony core and now I have two great library's to choose from.
And down the rabbit hole I go


----------



## Leslie Fuller

josephspirits said:


> I'm really surprised there still isn't any more talk about the challenge at the heart of the scene. *SPOILERS FOR WEST WORLD:*
> In that part of the episode Caleb is tripping on a drug called Genre that causes him to experience the world through a series of different genres. So scoring this as a typical sci-fi action or chase scene may be missing the point. At least I'm guessing that's why they chose this scene specifically.



Spoilers are fine for me, as I’ve not watched one minute of any episode of Westworld, apart from playing through the supplied clip with the original scoring and dialogue.  

I‘m just going to do this for the experience of scoring to picture.


----------



## CT

Rossy said:


> Since my wife saw how much fun I was having, as a gift, she got me spitfire BBC Symphony core and now I have two great library's to choose from.
> And down the rabbit hole I go



Pretty great wife! BBCSO was also a gift to me from a special lady, and I'm glad I had it for my entry.


----------



## Mike Greene

Just as a reminder from the previous page:

*MODERATOR NOTE* - There is some great discussion here about how to score this scene. (as opposed to the ethics debate.) It's too bad that those posts are getting lost here, so I've created a new thread and copied those posts into this new thread.

For posts related to the composition/orchestration of this scene, please post there.


----------



## Beluga

Holy Moly what a read! Loved the HZ story how they didn’t draw up a contract before Ramin started to write music. But the thing is Spitfire did. And wow does it read differently than the nice man in the video giving us a chance to work with the real shit rather than the amateur stuff.

I have this terrible habit to read contracts in full (and yes, even the last paragraph) and it brought me into a lot of discussions already. Now musicians usually don’t read these and that’s why lawyers enjoy the free ride. So beyond the pep talk on how to take chances in life have a look at this:

“By participating in the Competition and/or accepting a prize, each entrant agrees to hold the Competition Entities and their respective current and future parents, affiliates, subsidiaries, advertising and promotion agencies, licensees, successors and assigns and all of their respective officers, directors, agents and employees (collectively, “Released Parties”) harmless against any and all claims and liability arising out of participation in this Competition or use/misuse of prize, including without limitation any claims for personal injury (including death) or property damage and any claims for infringement of any third-party rights (including any intellectual property, privacy and/or publicity rights). Entrants assume all liability for any injury or damage caused or claimed to be caused by participation in this Competition or use or redemption of any prize.”

What does that mean? Potentially? It reads to me that if someone attacks Spitfire or anyone in any way related to them and claims he/she somehow was harmed because of your entry YOU who entered the competition are legally responsible and need to defend Spitfire from this. Yes, even if there is (literally) death involved. Yes, even if you have done nothing wrong. There is NO LIMIT expressed to attorney or legal fees you might have to pay. There does not need to be ANY breach for this to work.

Ah lawyers you gotta love ‘em. So anyone entering this competition takes a surreal legal risk for NOTHING in return (oh yeah except the great opportunity to practice, well better not send that music in, my friend). Nothing fishy here, all usual legal stuff, nothing to see here, move on...

Oh yeah, no contract is better than a bad one (like this). And if there is one, always read that stuff.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Beluga said:


> Holy Moly what a read! Loved the HZ story how they didn’t draw up a contract before Ramin started to write music. But the thing is Spitfire did. And wow does it read differently than the nice man in the video giving us a chance to work with the real shit rather than the amateur stuff.
> 
> I have this terrible habit to read contracts in full (and yes, even the last paragraph) and it brought me into a lot of trouble already. Now musicians usually don’t read these and that’s why lawyers enjoy the free ride. So beyond the pep talk on how to take chances in life have a look at this:
> 
> “By participating in the Competition and/or accepting a prize, each entrant agrees to hold the Competition Entities and their respective current and future parents, affiliates, subsidiaries, advertising and promotion agencies, licensees, successors and assigns and all of their respective officers, directors, agents and employees (collectively, “Released Parties”) harmless against any and all claims and liability arising out of participation in this Competition or use/misuse of prize, including without limitation any claims for personal injury (including death) or property damage and any claims for infringement of any third-party rights (including any intellectual property, privacy and/or publicity rights). Entrants assume all liability for any injury or damage caused or claimed to be caused by participation in this Competition or use or redemption of any prize.”
> 
> What does that mean? Potentially? It reads to me that if someone attacks Spitfire or anyone in any way related to them (even family) and claims he/she somehow was harmed because of your entry YOU who entered the competition are legally responsible and need to defend Spitfire from this. Yes, even if there is (literally) death involved. Yes, even if you have done nothing wrong. There is NO LIMIT expressed to attorney or legal fees you might have to pay. There does not need to be ANY breach for this to work.
> 
> Ah lawyers you gotta love ‘em. So anyone entering this competition takes a surreal legal risk for NOTHING in return (oh yeah except the great opportunity to practice, well better not send that music in, my friend). Nothing fishy here, all usual legal stuff, nothing to see here, move on...
> 
> Oh yeah, no contract is better than a bad one (like this). And if there is one, always read that stuff.



so did you enter?


----------



## FuzyDunlop

Beluga said:


> Holy Moly what a read! Loved the HZ story how they didn’t draw up a contract before Ramin started to write music. But the thing is Spitfire did. And wow does it read differently than the nice man in the video giving us a chance to work with the real shit rather than the amateur stuff.
> 
> I have this terrible habit to read contracts in full (and yes, even the last paragraph) and it brought me into a lot of discussions already. Now musicians usually don’t read these and that’s why lawyers enjoy the free ride. So beyond the pep talk on how to take chances in life have a look at this:
> 
> “By participating in the Competition and/or accepting a prize, each entrant agrees to hold the Competition Entities and their respective current and future parents, affiliates, subsidiaries, advertising and promotion agencies, licensees, successors and assigns and all of their respective officers, directors, agents and employees (collectively, “Released Parties”) harmless against any and all claims and liability arising out of participation in this Competition or use/misuse of prize, including without limitation any claims for personal injury (including death) or property damage and any claims for infringement of any third-party rights (including any intellectual property, privacy and/or publicity rights). Entrants assume all liability for any injury or damage caused or claimed to be caused by participation in this Competition or use or redemption of any prize.”
> 
> What does that mean? Potentially? It reads to me that if someone attacks Spitfire or anyone in any way related to them and claims he/she somehow was harmed because of your entry YOU who entered the competition are legally responsible and need to defend Spitfire from this. Yes, even if there is (literally) death involved. Yes, even if you have done nothing wrong. There is NO LIMIT expressed to attorney or legal fees you might have to pay. There does not need to be ANY breach for this to work.
> 
> Ah lawyers you gotta love ‘em. So anyone entering this competition takes a surreal legal risk for NOTHING in return (oh yeah except the great opportunity to practice, well better not send that music in, my friend). Nothing fishy here, all usual legal stuff, nothing to see here, move on...
> 
> Oh yeah, no contract is better than a bad one (like this). And if there is one, always read that stuff.



I think you might be insane. No offense. But what you've described is just about the most far-fetched thing ever.


----------



## pmcrockett

Beluga said:


> Holy Moly what a read! Loved the HZ story how they didn’t draw up a contract before Ramin started to write music. But the thing is Spitfire did. And wow does it read differently than the nice man in the video giving us a chance to work with the real shit rather than the amateur stuff.
> 
> I have this terrible habit to read contracts in full (and yes, even the last paragraph) and it brought me into a lot of discussions already. Now musicians usually don’t read these and that’s why lawyers enjoy the free ride. So beyond the pep talk on how to take chances in life have a look at this:
> 
> “By participating in the Competition and/or accepting a prize, each entrant agrees to hold the Competition Entities and their respective current and future parents, affiliates, subsidiaries, advertising and promotion agencies, licensees, successors and assigns and all of their respective officers, directors, agents and employees (collectively, “Released Parties”) harmless against any and all claims and liability arising out of participation in this Competition or use/misuse of prize, including without limitation any claims for personal injury (including death) or property damage and any claims for infringement of any third-party rights (including any intellectual property, privacy and/or publicity rights). Entrants assume all liability for any injury or damage caused or claimed to be caused by participation in this Competition or use or redemption of any prize.”
> 
> What does that mean? Potentially? It reads to me that if someone attacks Spitfire or anyone in any way related to them and claims he/she somehow was harmed because of your entry YOU who entered the competition are legally responsible and need to defend Spitfire from this. Yes, even if there is (literally) death involved. Yes, even if you have done nothing wrong. There is NO LIMIT expressed to attorney or legal fees you might have to pay. There does not need to be ANY breach for this to work.
> 
> Ah lawyers you gotta love ‘em. So anyone entering this competition takes a surreal legal risk for NOTHING in return (oh yeah except the great opportunity to practice, well better not send that music in, my friend). Nothing fishy here, all usual legal stuff, nothing to see here, move on...
> 
> Oh yeah, no contract is better than a bad one (like this). And if there is one, always read that stuff.


I'm not a lawyer, but I believe this is legal boilerplate that basically says if you or someone else comes to some harm through your participation in the contest (say, the hard drive of samples they sent you for winning catches fire and burns your house down) they're not responsible. Perhaps more importantly, it says that if some third party tries to sue Spitfire because your contest entry violated that third party's copyright, Spitfire doesn't have to deal with it and will direct them to you instead.

I don't find this at all objectionable.


----------



## jononotbono

Does anyone here own this pool? Really would like one of those at some point.


----------



## CT

Yeah, that's my place.


----------



## iaink

You are trying to reduce the pool of entrants?

🤔



Beluga said:


> Holy Moly what a read! Loved the HZ story how they didn’t draw up a contract before Ramin started to write music. But the thing is Spitfire did. And wow does it read differently than the nice man in the video giving us a chance to work with the real shit rather than the amateur stuff.
> 
> I have this terrible habit to read contracts in full (and yes, even the last paragraph) and it brought me into a lot of discussions already. Now musicians usually don’t read these and that’s why lawyers enjoy the free ride. So beyond the pep talk on how to take chances in life have a look at this:
> 
> “By participating in the Competition and/or accepting a prize, each entrant agrees to hold the Competition Entities and their respective current and future parents, affiliates, subsidiaries, advertising and promotion agencies, licensees, successors and assigns and all of their respective officers, directors, agents and employees (collectively, “Released Parties”) harmless against any and all claims and liability arising out of participation in this Competition or use/misuse of prize, including without limitation any claims for personal injury (including death) or property damage and any claims for infringement of any third-party rights (including any intellectual property, privacy and/or publicity rights). Entrants assume all liability for any injury or damage caused or claimed to be caused by participation in this Competition or use or redemption of any prize.”
> 
> What does that mean? Potentially? It reads to me that if someone attacks Spitfire or anyone in any way related to them and claims he/she somehow was harmed because of your entry YOU who entered the competition are legally responsible and need to defend Spitfire from this. Yes, even if there is (literally) death involved. Yes, even if you have done nothing wrong. There is NO LIMIT expressed to attorney or legal fees you might have to pay. There does not need to be ANY breach for this to work.
> 
> Ah lawyers you gotta love ‘em. So anyone entering this competition takes a surreal legal risk for NOTHING in return (oh yeah except the great opportunity to practice, well better not send that music in, my friend). Nothing fishy here, all usual legal stuff, nothing to see here, move on...
> 
> Oh yeah, no contract is better than a bad one (like this). And if there is one, always read that stuff.


----------



## Magnet

iaink said:


> You are trying to reduce the pool of entrants?
> 
> 🤔


It is a contest, so I guess psychological tactics are one way to try to up your chances!


----------



## NYC Composer

FuzyDunlop said:


> I think you might be insane. No offense. But what you've described is just about the most far-fetched thing ever.


Clearly, you’ve never been asked to “sound like” an existing piece of music and then forced to sign an indemnification clause if you wanted the gig. I signed bunches because it would have cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars not to, but I resented every mf-ing one of them. Me=tiny composer. They=billion dollar ad agency. I’ve got horror stories.

Insanity is so, so subjective.


----------



## Beluga

FuzyDunlop said:


> I think you might be insane. No offense. But what you've described is just about the most far-fetched thing ever.



I think you might be naive and inexperienced. No offense.

When a lawyer works for someone he will put all the advantages on the side of his client. If unchallenged this is without limit. A lawyer might think it is in the best interest of the client when really this paragraph reflects negatively on Spitfire from where I stand. Not intentionally from their side (they just hire the lawyer) but it's bad practice and even gets their clients (users) to get used to this kind of abusive terms.

You think it's random that the paragraph appears at the very end of the agreement? To me, it all seemed fine until then.


----------



## Beluga

NYC Composer said:


> Clearly, you’ve never been asked to “sound like” an existing piece of music and then forced to sign an indemnification clause if you wanted the gig. I signed bunches because it would have cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars not to, but I resented every mf-ing one of them. Me=tiny composer. They=billion dollar ad agency. I’ve got horror stories.
> 
> Insanity is so, so subjective.



Thanks, man - good to see someone sees where I'm coming from and what I'm saying.


----------



## Beluga

pmcrockett said:


> I'm not a lawyer, but I believe this is legal boilerplate that basically says if you or someone else comes to some harm through your participation in the contest (say, the hard drive of samples they sent you for winning catches fire and burns your house down) they're not responsible. Perhaps more importantly, it says that if some third party tries to sue Spitfire because your contest entry violated that third party's copyright, Spitfire doesn't have to deal with it and will direct them to you instead.
> 
> I don't find this at all objectionable.



Nah, not what's happening. Read again. What you are describing is said in another paragraph (see below) and is indeed acceptable. 

No, at the very end of the agreement, they are saying that even IF someone- CLAIMS - (not proves) he had ANY harm caused by your entry you are held responsible and must defend Spitfire, HBO etc. Again, I stress this: "claims". No need for it to be actually true. 

Here is the other paragraph you are paraphrasing above:

"Spitfire cannot accept any responsibility for any damage, loss, injury or disappointment suffered by any entrant entering the Competition or as a result of accepting any prize. Spitfire is not responsible for any problems or technical malfunction of any telephone network or lines, online computer systems, servers, or providers, computer equipment or software, failure of any email or entry to be received on account of technical problems or traffic congestion on the Internet or at any web site, or any combination of these, including any injury or damage to entrant’s or any other person’s computer or mobile telephone related to or resulting from participation or downloading any materials in the Competition. Nothing shall exclude Spitfire’s liability for death or personal injury as a result of its negligence."


----------



## Beluga

I'm not looking to pick on Spitfire, I have nothing again them even if I don't own any of their products (this only comes down to my personal taste). I perfectly respect their business (and like Christian's Vblog).

But com'on guys.. can't you see this competition is mainly clever marketing? Very clever marketing actually.

They are putting the price up there, and you are below struggling to get there.. the ultimate Spitfire collection. The desirable object?

They are associating with a huge brand, a dream client for most aspiring composers, putting their brand right next to them, HBO, Westworld, the awesome Ramin, the guy sitting just next to Hans Zimmer?

They are addressing starting out composers, actual future potential clients of them. Making their brand known to them. Making them want to win their libraries. Making them struggle to get there.

It's clever, it's genius. I could never come up with these marketing tricks.

A great opportunity for composers? Maybe, 0.1-0.5 % of them. 100% sure a great opportunity for Spitfire, though.

And I'm not even criticizing it, I wish them best of luck and much success.


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

Beluga said:


> Nah, not what's happening. Read again. What you are describing is said in another paragraph (see below) and is indeed acceptable.
> 
> No, at the very end of the agreement, they are saying that even IF someone- CLAIMS - (not proves) he had ANY harm caused by your entry you are held responsible and must defend Spitfire, HBO etc. Again, I stress this: "claims". No need for it to be actually true.
> 
> Here is the other paragraph you are paraphrasing above:
> 
> "Spitfire cannot accept any responsibility for any damage, loss, injury or disappointment suffered by any entrant entering the Competition or as a result of accepting any prize. Spitfire is not responsible for any problems or technical malfunction of any telephone network or lines, online computer systems, servers, or providers, computer equipment or software, failure of any email or entry to be received on account of technical problems or traffic congestion on the Internet or at any web site, or any combination of these, including any injury or damage to entrant’s or any other person’s computer or mobile telephone related to or resulting from participation or downloading any materials in the Competition. Nothing shall exclude Spitfire’s liability for death or personal injury as a result of its negligence."



I think you are misunderstanding what that paragraph says. Below I'll break it down into chunks:



> “By participating in the Competition and/or accepting a prize, each entrant agrees to hold the Competition Entities and their respective current and future parents, affiliates, subsidiaries, advertising and promotion agencies, licensees, successors and assigns and all of their respective officers, directors, agents and employees (collectively, “Released Parties”)



By entering you agree Spitfire and anyone and everyone associated with them



> harmless against any and all claims and liability arising out of participation in this Competition or use/misuse of prize,



Are to be considered free from any claim related to the competition or prize



> including without limitation any claims for personal injury (including death) or property damage and any claims for infringement of any third-party rights (including any intellectual property, privacy and/or publicity rights).



Such as damages caused to oneself or third-party copy-rights, for example



> Entrants assume all liability for any injury or damage caused or claimed to be caused by participation in this Competition or use or redemption of any prize.”



And are as such liable for these damages yourself.

Let's put that together:
By entering you agree Spitfire (etc) are not to be held responsible for any damages you cause to yourself or through third-party rights infringement, and that you yourself are liable instead.

That does not mean the same thing you are claiming.
It means don't make a mock-up of The Dark Knight's soundtrack and send it to them. If you do, you're the one who will be held responsible if someone goes after Spitfire instead.
That doesn't mean you have to 'defend Spitfire', it means don't steal other people's shit as Spitfire ain't gonna protect you, and if you die from handling the prize improperly (the top prize is a disk drive, iirc) it's entirely on you as well.

It's totally reasonable and basically a requirement (considering common sense) for Spitfire to even be able to run the competition.

And yes, the competition is pretty clever marketing. Malicious? No. I could go on as to why, but if your attitude won't change after I explained that legal clause above, I suspect it would be fruitless to continue...


----------



## Nico

Karl Feuerstake said:


> and if you fall down some stairs while working on the project it's entirely on you as well.



really? I was recording fusebox sound samples for this project. I guess I should stop that.


----------



## Magnet

Beluga said:


> But com'on guys.. can't you see this competition is mainly clever marketing?



Wait, you mean these companies aren't using their resources to host and judge a competition just because they're really bored?

But seriously, you go on about them making participants struggle, and I can only speak for myself, but I'm doing this for fun. No expectation of winning, no struggle here. This is my first time scoring anything, and I think it's awesome that they're doing this contest and providing a quality clip with no music for interested people to learn/practice with. I may not even finish and enter in time and I'm totally cool with that.

If there are people out there seriously struggling and slaving over this thing for days or weeks on end with an expectation of winning / jockeying themselves into a career, well, odds are many of them are going to be disappointed. But that's their choice if they want to devote tons of resources to this with unrealistic expectations. And even those people who struggle with and lose the competition don't necessarily walk out empty-handed. They now have something to include in their personal portfolio to show the kind of work they produced for a competition - something that they can hopefully be proud of and use to impress potential future clients.


----------



## NYC Composer

Karl Feuerstake said:


> I think you are misunderstanding what that paragraph says. Below I'll break it down into chunks:
> 
> 
> 
> By entering you agree Spitfire and anyone and everyone associated with them
> 
> 
> 
> Are to be considered free from any claim related to the competition or prize
> 
> 
> 
> Such as damages caused to oneself or third-party copy-rights, for example
> 
> 
> 
> And are as such liable for these damages yourself.
> 
> Let's put that together:
> By entering you agree Spitfire (etc) are not to be held responsible for any damages you cause to yourself or through third-party rights infringement, and that you yourself are liable instead.
> 
> That does not mean the same thing you are claiming.
> It means don't make a mock-up of The Dark Knight's soundtrack and send it to them. If you do, you're the one who will be held responsible if someone goes after Spitfire instead.
> That doesn't mean you have to 'defend Spitfire', it means don't steal other people's shit as Spitfire ain't gonna protect you, and if you die from handling the prize improperly (the top prize is a disk drive, iirc) it's entirely on you as well.
> 
> It's totally reasonable and basically a requirement (considering common sense) for Spitfire to even be able to run the competition.
> 
> And yes, the competition is pretty clever marketing. Malicious? No. I could go on as to why, but if your attitude won't change after I explained that legal clause above, I suspect it would be fruitless to continue...


(sigh)

Let's say, what you wrote is in the STYLE of The Dark Knight, and someone comes after Spitfire. Spitfire will in turn shrug and turn the matter over to their lawyers and tell them to settle for whatever, then come after you, style stealing composer who has indemnified Spitfire.

I'm not saying any of this would actually happen, but could it? Yes. I have real world examples, here in the U S of A. Maybe British lawyers are kinder and gentler?...naaaaaaaah.


----------



## Danny

Karl Feuerstake said:


> I think you are misunderstanding what that paragraph says. Below I'll break it down into chunks:
> 
> 
> 
> By entering you agree Spitfire and anyone and everyone associated with them
> 
> 
> 
> Are to be considered free from any claim related to the competition or prize
> 
> 
> 
> Such as damages caused to oneself or third-party copy-rights, for example
> 
> 
> 
> And are as such liable for these damages yourself.
> 
> Let's put that together:
> By entering you agree Spitfire (etc) are not to be held responsible for any damages you cause to yourself or through third-party rights infringement, and that you yourself are liable instead.
> 
> That does not mean the same thing you are claiming.
> It means don't make a mock-up of The Dark Knight's soundtrack and send it to them. If you do, you're the one who will be held responsible if someone goes after Spitfire instead.
> That doesn't mean you have to 'defend Spitfire', it means don't steal other people's shit as Spitfire ain't gonna protect you, and if you die from handling the prize improperly (the top prize is a disk drive, iirc) it's entirely on you as well.
> 
> It's totally reasonable and basically a requirement (considering common sense) for Spitfire to even be able to run the competition.
> 
> And yes, the competition is pretty clever marketing. Malicious? No. I could go on as to why, but if your attitude won't change after I explained that legal clause above, I suspect it would be fruitless to continue...



Good point.... If you climb & jump from a bridge to record a sound for the competition. Spitfire is not liable if you are death or break your legs.


----------



## FuzyDunlop

NYC Composer said:


> Clearly, you’ve never been asked to “sound like” an existing piece of music and then forced to sign an indemnification clause if you wanted the gig. I signed bunches because it would have cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars not to, but I resented every mf-ing one of them. Me=tiny composer. They=billion dollar ad agency. I’ve got horror stories.
> 
> Insanity is so, so subjective.



Oh, I get that. That's not what he said at all.


----------



## FuzyDunlop

NYC Composer said:


> (sigh)
> 
> Let's say, what you wrote is in the STYLE of The Dark Knight, and someone comes after Spitfire. Spitfire will in turn shrug and turn the matter over to their lawyers and tell them to settle for whatever, then come after you, style stealing composer who has indemnified Spitfire.
> 
> I'm not saying any of this would actually happen, but could it? Yes. I have real world examples, here in the U S of A. Maybe British lawyers are kinder and gentler?...naaaaaaaah.


You sound like you've had some negative experiences in this regard, which sucks. But that could happen to you at any time, with anything you write. The fact that they have that clause in the contract seems obvious to me to protect them from that kind of thing. YOU can avoid it by not submitting an entry that steals other people's music. Obviously someone could accuse you of ripping off their music even if you've never heard it, but like I said that's a ubiquitous risk whenever you create anything. I've never had that experience so I'm not sure how it works, but surely the burden is on them to prove that you did infringe on their IP?


----------



## jacobthestupendous

"Hold harmless" means that you will not blame them in the future, every if something crazy happens. This is very normal language to see in contacts.

The requirement for you to accept any and all liability related to this contract probably should be specified instead to read related to _your participation_ in this contest, but it stretches the imagination to suppose that any sane judge would fail to read that context into it even as is. The word "liability" can mean lots of things; nobody who understands contract language would translate this as "Beluga clicked 'I agree' so we'll just send him any and all invoices related to Spitfire's legal defense."

I get that a lot of shady stuff happens, and many people on here have had to sign away a lot of protections. This is Spitfire protecting themselves against the sort of claims (that are not at all hard to imagine) where composers don't think that their great work got it's fair due.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Wow, a lot of cynical dark clouds here. Like I said earlier, move over so the rest of us have a chance....or at very least, have fun scoring this, and SF even said you can use it in your portfolio if you state it was for the competition. I accept the legal terms, just like I did with my mortgage and credit cards....same crap. Life’s too short, live big, live your dreams.


----------



## dzilizzi

So, basically, you aren't going to get money from YouTube on this because HBO owns the video. If you copy someone else's sound that is not in public domain, you have to defend yourself and pay any of Spitfire's costs if they are sued instead of you. And if you win and the SSD catches fire and burns down your house, you can't sue Spitfire. Oh, and if one of their employees or whoever is judging this, gets so excited by your entry, they have a heart attack and die, their family can sue you. 

Okay. So, for me? None of this will be an issue. There isn't much "music" so far and I'm using paid for libraries. Though, of course it will sound like Hans Zimmer, I'm using Hans Zimmer Percussion library! And I'm not going to win, so? That fire and heart attack will never happen. 

And frankly, if you don't win and want to be safe? Just pull it off YouTube after the competition. 

But really, I think they are just stating if something goes wrong with the contest, if you don't win, if you win but used someone else's music and are getting sued, if someone in your family dies because you are too busy scoring this to notice they are choking on a grape and need the Heimlich maneuver or an ambulance called, etc...., you can't sue them and you are responsible to defend your own actions. I can't really blame them for what should be a fun contest in a sue-happy society. 

Though I have to say @NYC Composer, that really sucks that a company will ask you to copy someone's music enough to sound like it, yet refuse to pay to defend if it sounds a little too much like it. The way these lawsuits are going today, that will get you hit. Though? If the person thinks you are only a small guy with no real money rather than the large corporation that has a lot of money, it might stop the lawsuit, which might be the point.


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

NYC Composer said:


> (sigh)
> 
> Let's say, what you wrote is in the STYLE of The Dark Knight, and someone comes after Spitfire. Spitfire will in turn shrug and turn the matter over to their lawyers and tell them to settle for whatever, then come after you, style stealing composer who has indemnified Spitfire.
> 
> I'm not saying any of this would actually happen, but could it? Yes. I have real world examples, here in the U S of A. Maybe British lawyers are kinder and gentler?...naaaaaaaah.


You make a fair point and yes sometimes in real life clients ask you to 'do the temp.' Here you're given total freedom to do what you want so long as it's originial; so don't "do the temp" as you would be doubly liable since you'd have placed the temp too.


----------



## Michael Stibor

Wolfie2112 said:


> Wow, a lot of cynical dark clouds here. Like I said earlier, move over so the rest of us have a chance....


But even then, legal disclosures/documents are not about cynicism or positivity. In fact, just the opposite. They’re designed to eliminate interpretation (but still are, clearly).

Personally I see nothing in the disclosure that gives me pause to consider NOT entering.

And for those that think it’s all a big marketing ploy, we’ll yeah. No sh*t. But at the same time, it’s a great exercise in composition, scoring, and time management. Hey, if I found this clip online with no music, even if there _wasn’t_ a contest I’d probably score it.And like Hans said early on, if you’re worried about protecting your intellectual property, well then you need to create more properties.

As well, nowhere in the contest video does it mention you becoming famous from this or making so great connection. The prize is clear. So any misinterpretation of that from those for or against the contest is our own.


----------



## FuzyDunlop

Wolfie2112 said:


> Wow, a lot of cynical dark clouds here. Like I said earlier, move over so the rest of us have a chance....or at very least, have fun scoring this, and SF even said you can use it in your portfolio if you state it was for the competition. I accept the legal terms, just like I did with my mortgage and credit cards....same crap. Life’s too short, live big, live your dreams.



I hope their music is as imaginative as their legal opinions and excuse-making.


----------



## NYC Composer

Most of what I’ve written is not specific to this situation. However, if you’re a working composer or plan to be, knowing what the words “indemnify and hold harmless” mean in a standard indemnification clause is a really, really good idea.


----------



## robgb

Geocranium said:


> Everyone entering should just know that it states in the terms and conditions: _"By entering the Competition, you hereby grant the Competition Entities the right to use your name, likeness, and entry in connection with the Competition and for any related advertising and promotion."_


This standard legalese as far as I can tell. The same you'd find on SoundCloud or YouTube or anywhere else. But, hey, if you're concerned, don't enter.


----------



## grantfloering

Are we posting our entries here to share with everyone? Or is that frowned upon? 

Also, could someone who's not entering please use their entry to rickroll the judges?! lmao


----------



## NYC Composer

dzilizzi said:


> Though I have to say @NYC Composer, that really sucks that a company will ask you to copy someone's music enough to sound? If the person thinks you are only a small guy with no real money rather than the large corporation that has a lot of money, it might stop the lawsuit, which might be the point.



The trick is when you have to regretfully say no because of how close you are being pushed into copying something.

They'd assess your assets first. At least that's what I've seen happen. Got property? Got a retirement account? Got a job from which your wages could be garnished?


----------



## pmcrockett

grantfloering said:


> Are we posting our entries here to share with everyone? Or is that frowned upon?
> 
> Also, could someone who's not entering please use their entry to rickroll the judges?! lmao


We're sharing entries over in the spinoff thread: Spitfire Westworld Competition SPINOFF - Composition Discussion, Advice and Examples.


----------



## brash tracks

NoamL said:


> ??? The winner gets a prize worth upwards of $10,000 and the five runners up get a prize worth $1700. Altogether nearly $20k in prizes and a chance to get your music heard by a major composer. Pretty amazing deal if all we are "giving away" is the chance for Spitfire to make a couple of marketing / Composer's Crib videos with Ramin. Almost zero chance the music people submit will be used for any other purpose (including by HBO in any capacity) just like the Bleeding Fingers competition from a few years ago. If I didn't have a busy schedule / already have SSO I'd leap at this! Good luck to all the contestants.



not to mention you’re still going to be collecting performance royalties if they use the music on air. So it wouldnt technically be for free.


----------



## Beluga

I knew I shouldn't have read the replies on the thread.. :D

Well, I can't discuss every detail of this and comment on every reply. But just a word on this:



> "harmless against any and all claims and liability arising out of participation in this Competition or use/misuse of prize,"


"Are to be considered free from any claim related to the competition or prize"

From Karl Feuerstake, it shows the fundamental lack of understanding of legal terms and business agreements (also note the "if you don't agree any discussion is pointless":D). That's not what "hold harmless against" means. It means defending them against any claims (that are somehow related to your submission), even in court if necessary.

"hold harmless".--> Defend, protect.

From the web: "A hold harmless agreement is one in which one person agrees to assume the liability and risk that may arise from the obligation, and *protects and indemnifies* the other party against having to bear any loss. " https://definitions.uslegal.com/h/hold-harmless/

Anyway, I see this discussion is pointless here and I'm saddened about it. So much of the (deliberate?) ignorance of the content of agreement exposes the problem we have on the market. Abusive contracts, cut-throat conditions, no room for negotiation because "no one ever said anything". Until composers will respect themselves, no one will.

To give you this on the way: How come a company like Orchestral Tools (I read their conditions on their website by curiosity) have nothing like this in their agreement? (rhetorical question)


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

Beluga said:


> "hold harmless".--> Defend, protect.
> 
> From the web: "A hold harmless agreement is one in which one person agrees to assume the liability and risk that may arise from the obligation, and *protects and indemnifies* the other party against having to bear any loss. " https://definitions.uslegal.com/h/hold-harmless/



Alright, I'm getting a bit frustrated now.
Holding Spitfire harmless for you stealing material (or accidentally killing yourself with the hard drive) is, once again, completely reasonable and sound.
You do not have to go to court to defend them, you will have to go to court to defend _yourself_. At most you might have to make a statement saying they are not responsible for your fuck-ups, which is totally and completely reasonable. This will 'hold them harmless.' You make it sound like Spitfire wants to get sued so they can drag _you_ to court and get _you_ to fight _their_ battles. That is not the case at all. The entire clause is about you being responsible for your own problems.

From the same link you posted:
"A hold harmless agreement is designed to release one or more parties from legal liability"
But please, don't enter the competition if you aren't willing to accept that Spitfire won't be held liable for any damages you cause.


----------



## grantfloering

These types of debates and arguments are the exact reason why I stayed away from VI control for the longest time. Every once and a while you’ll come across a forum that’s productive, educational, encouraging, but it’s rare. And this is just the bottom of barrel. Tempted to unsubscribe from this. 🤦🏻‍♂️


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

grantfloering said:


> These types of debates and arguments are the exact reason why I stayed away from VI control for the longest time. Every once and a while you’ll come across a forum that’s productive, educational, encouraging, but it’s rare. And this is just the bottom of barrel. Tempted to unsubscribe from this. 🤦🏻‍♂️


At least so far, nobody is throwing around any insults... and I will continue to refrain from that. This is reasonable, if heated, discussion.


----------



## jononotbono

I’m having such a blast attempting this! Haven’t had this much fun for a long time!


----------



## robgb

NoamL said:


> Another thing I'm taking away from the early entries is when you go full-bore action drums & synths all the time the scene has nowhere to go.


With this type of sequence, I'm not sure the score HAS to go anywhere other than to hype the adrenalin. I think less is more. Keep it simple, keep the rhythm going, throw in some accents that add to the tension but don't mickey mouse the action and stay out of the way of the dialogue and sound effects.

But then I'm not a score composer, so what do I know?



jononotbono said:


> I’m having such a blast attempting this! Haven’t had this much fun for a long time!


I had fun, too.


----------



## dzilizzi

So I had it sounding good and bounced the mix. The dialogue is totally lost. Not sure what happened as it was there in the run through. I guess I'll bounce the tracks separately and see if that helps. Or I guess I'll have to remix.


----------



## jononotbono

robgb said:


> I had fun, too.



Have you uploaded yours? Would love to hear it. Loving hearing everyone’s take on this. I’m on the cusp of finishing mine but have to tweak the mix first before I upload it.


----------



## robgb

jononotbono said:


> Have you uploaded yours? Would love to hear it. Loving hearing everyone’s take on this. I’m on the cusp of finishing mine but have to tweak the mix first before I upload it.


Mine's up. It's rather simple. You can find it under my name Robert Gregory Browne.


----------



## jononotbono

robgb said:


> Mine's up. It's rather simple. You can find it under my name Robert Gregory Browne.



Ill check it out later. Great!


----------



## Nico

dzilizzi said:


> So I had it sounding good and bounced the mix. The dialogue is totally lost. Not sure what happened as it was there in the run through. I guess I'll bounce the tracks separately and see if that helps. Or I guess I'll have to remix.


I would recommend using a multiband compressor on the music, with sidechain from the dialogue. It can really help. Here is a good tutorial:  

He uses audition and waves c6 but any DAW and plugin can be used


----------



## dzilizzi

Nico said:


> I would recommend using a multiband compressor on the music, with sidechain from the dialogue. It can really help. Here is a good tutorial:
> 
> He uses audition and waves c6 but any DAW and plugin can be used



I know about ducking. I just didn't need it when I ran it through originally. Something in my mastering chain is pumping the sound up during the bounce. I was thinking about rebouncing just the music, but I'd rather not duck it because it can sound weird when all the sound suddenly turns down. It's better to make the music flow around it using volume automation on the loud stuff while leaving the drums and bass rhythm going. Thanks though.


----------



## Magnus73

Here is my take on it:


----------



## stargazer

dzilizzi said:


> I know about ducking. I just didn't need it when I ran it through originally. Something in my mastering chain is pumping the sound up during the bounce. I was thinking about rebouncing just the music, but I'd rather not duck it because it can sound weird when all the sound suddenly turns down. It's better to make the music flow around it using volume automation on the loud stuff while leaving the drums and bass rhythm going. Thanks though.


So, it sounds ok when you run through it, but the dialog/FX is lost when you bounce?
Maybe too obvious (excuse me in that case), but have you checked your routing (subgroups/2-bus/monitoring)?


----------



## Danny

Just curious, it seems there are 2 different raw video sources for this competition. Maybe the differences are very small and can be neglected. There are 2 majorities of video length on Youtube, 4:17 and 4:06.


----------



## Yogevs

Danny said:


> Just curious, it seems there are 2 different raw video sources for this competition. Maybe the differences are very small and can be neglected. There are 2 majorities of video length on Youtube, 4:17 and 4:06.



Maybe it's some people who are adding their own bumper with their own brand before and after the video?


----------



## Nico

Danny said:


> Just curious, it seems there are 2 different raw video sources for this competition. Maybe the differences are very small and can be neglected. There are 2 majorities of video length on Youtube, 4:17 and 4:06.



yes the original .mov files I downloaded are 04m16s256 (so rounded up to 4m17 on youtube) with a 23.98frames/sec (as shown in Paul's video) 

now I see that you can only download mp4 files but with a different framerate ( 25fr/sec ) which indeed gives a 04m06 length... strange. Bad encoding?


----------



## Eptesicus

Well i'm not changing mine now .

I doubt it will matter.

Surely 24fps is more "correct" as that is what film generally is.


----------



## pmcrockett

Eptesicus said:


> Well i'm not changing mine now .
> 
> I doubt it will matter.
> 
> Surely 24fps is more "correct" as that is what film generally is.


I figure the .mov must have been what the HBO editors originally sent Spitfire, and the .mp4 was the result of someone handing it off to an intern and saying, "Hey, people are complaining about .mov compatibility, can you make a .mp4 version of this?"

And I agree: because you're rendering the synced video yourself instead of giving the music track to someone else who might have the other version to sync, the time difference isn't going to matter.


----------



## dzilizzi

stargazer said:


> So, it sounds ok when you run through it, but the dialog/FX is lost when you bounce?
> Maybe too obvious (excuse me in that case), but have you checked your routing (subgroups/2-bus/monitoring)?


I did , but I will double check again. Everything should be routed through the master fader.


----------



## jononotbono

Magnet said:


> If there are people out there seriously struggling and slaving over this thing for days or weeks on end with an expectation of winning / jockeying themselves into a career, well, odds are many of them are going to be disappointed. But that's their choice if they want to devote tons of resources to this with unrealistic expectations.



I’ve just spent near 20hr days for the last two weeks working on this because I want to do the best thing I can. Be proud of something I’ve done. Why bother doing anything unless it’s the best you can do in a given time frame? I’m now mixing it and getting some sleep compared to the past couple of weeks. I’m so excited that this competition exists. I haven’t had so much fun doing something musical for a long time. Will I win? Definitely not. There are so many wonderfully talented people entering this. And no doubt they will get the recognition the deserve. But why do you think people have unrealistic expectations from entering this when giving it their all? Perhaps they just love it and want it to be the best thing they can do with no expectations whatsoever. I couldn’t live with myself entering this and thinking “that’ll do”. Two words together that I wont ever comprehend.

Each to their own of course man.


----------



## Magnet

jononotbono said:


> But why do you think people have unrealistic expectations from entering this when giving it their all?



I never said entering this giving it your all means that you have unrealistic expectations, as you're suggesting. I said people who DO have unrealistic expectations may be disappointed. You can put a ton of work into something and have reasonable expectations. You can also put a ton of work into something and have unreasonable expectations. I was taking about people in the latter category. I never implied (or certainly didn't mean to) that the former category did not exist. Rather, it was simply not the specific category I chose to use in making a rhetorical point to another person's argument 

Of course people can put a ton of work into this thing AND have realistic expectations. I never said otherwise.


----------



## CatOrchestra

Is it me or does this car chase scene feel slow as in that they are not driving particularly fast?


----------



## jononotbono

Magnet said:


> I never said entering this giving it your all means that you have unrealistic expectations, as you're suggesting. I said people who DO have unrealistic expectations may be disappointed. You can put a ton of work into something and have reasonable expectations. You can also put a ton of work into something and have unreasonable expectations. I was taking about people in the latter category. I never implied (or certainly didn't mean to) that the former category did not exist. Rather, it was simply not the specific category I chose to use in making a rhetorical point to another person's argument
> 
> Of course people can put a ton of work into this thing AND have realistic expectations. I never said otherwise.



It's all good man.


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

CatOrchestra said:


> Is it me or does this car chase scene feel slow as in that they are not driving particularly fast?



Depends what music you write...


----------



## michalioz

Hi everyone,

Great opportunity to practice on a real action scene indeed - I am grateful I've been given this chance!

Good luck all!


----------



## UniqueAsterisk

I've been lurking here for awhile and although I'm not talented enough to compose for this I do enjoy reading the discussions here!

Anyway I found someone who did an orchestral arrangement for the score. Honestly sounds a little strange... What do u guys think?


----------



## jononotbono

UniqueAsterisk said:


> I've been lurking here for awhile and although I'm not talented enough to compose for this I do enjoy reading the discussions here!
> 
> Anyway I found someone who did an orchestral arrangement for the score. Honestly sounds a little strange... What do u guys think?




What sounds strange about it? Sounds like Orchestral music.


----------



## michalioz

UniqueAsterisk said:


> I've been lurking here for awhile and although I'm not talented enough to compose for this I do enjoy reading the discussions here!
> 
> Anyway I found someone who did an orchestral arrangement for the score. Honestly sounds a little strange... What do u guys think?




I think there are more straightforward ways to make us listen to your work and get feedback.


----------



## ashtongleckman

Awesome posts from Charlie Clouser here. Great read. 
Loving all of your submissions!


----------



## Yogevs

Here's my entry - I hope you like it.
Would love some feedback !


----------



## Simon Lee




----------



## robharvey

Here's my entry!


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

Sorry for the double post, but since there are two threads...
My version is beat-driven, with lots of synths. Looking forward to any feedback:


----------



## Michael Stibor

Oh I didn’t realize submission were supposed to be posted here instead of (in addition to?) the other thread. I had made some changes after I first posted, so this is kinda new too.


----------



## whynotj

Hey guys, here's my submission for the Westworld scoring competition. Hope you dig!


----------



## mgnoatto

Here goes mine!


----------



## toomanynotes

Hi ladies! I farted this one out into a mic and then had Cubase convert the audio to midi, I learnt a lot about my inner being, it smelt repulsively melodic and nostalgic. I thank you all for your support.


----------



## schrodinger1612

Tomorrow I’m adding the finishing touches to my track before mixing. have to say, as a late comer I’ve enjoyed the pressure of coming up with something at the last minute.


----------



## KeyMaestro

I posted mine tonight - feedback very welcome! Good luck to everyone entering!


----------



## snattack

Geocranium said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by this. Is this not the whole purpose of crowdsourcing competitions? You pay out winners with the prize, but you are also entitled to all of the entries?
> 
> 
> 
> This to me just sounds like a repackaging of, "if you do this task for us we won't pay you in money, but will instead pay you in exposure, which is just as valuable." I'm also not keen on "spec work" (which is exactly what you're describing), as I think that too is something that harms creative industries.
> 
> I'm not interested in the competition because I would rather create music for my own amusement, or for a gig I knew for sure I was getting a payout for. Again, if you want to enter have at it, but most professionals I know would steer clear of a spec-work competition.



I'm 20 pages late, so not sure if someone has already responded to this, but:

_"By entering the Competition, you hereby grant the Competition Entities the right to use your name, likeness, and entry __*in connection*__ with the Competition and for *any related *advertising and promotion."_

This is not an uncommon clause, I've seen similar stuff many times. The "in connection" and "any related" parts arethe important ones, and it means that in connection with the actual competition, they are free to use the material. On the other hand, using for anything else – including Westworld trailer, etc – is not permitted.

This does not mean they can do whatever they want with the submissions. Simply not true.


----------



## snattack

UniqueAsterisk said:


> I've been lurking here for awhile and although I'm not talented enough to compose for this I do enjoy reading the discussions here!
> 
> Anyway I found someone who did an orchestral arrangement for the score. Honestly sounds a little strange... What do u guys think?




Haven't you the seen the original? It's "Ride of the Valkyrie" by Wagner as score.

I was thinking about doing something more classical as well, but since that was in the original, I didn't want it to feel like a rip-off


----------



## Manaberry

Might give it a shot today, for fun.


----------



## toomanynotes

Manaberry said:


> Might give it a shot today, for fun.


We’ve all done it for fun. 🤣


----------



## Manaberry

toomanynotes said:


> We’ve all done it for fun. 🤣


Haha yes, even funnier when there are 24 hours left!


----------



## toomanynotes

Manaberry said:


> Haha yes, even funnier when there are 24 hours left!


now that’s comedy! 🤪 your piece better make me laugh!


----------



## schrodinger1612

during the switching genres part, I added a bunch of pick scratching across the strings of a guitar, along with a sustained ebow....does that count as an effect? Also a bunch of bloops n beeps from hitting muted strings with a metal slide. Hope I haven’t overstepped the mark there...I know we are not allowed to add our own sfx. Perhaps I should strip it back to just the ebow?

here it is


----------



## retroreel

OK I just had to have a go at this. Tried to be a bit different with melody and feel above sound design 

Red Light - Spitfire Audio | HBO #westworldscoringcompetition2020


----------



## michalioz

Does anyone know if there is going to be a ranking for the first 20 people or top 1%? I understand that there is going to be a winner and 5 runner-ups and it's time consuming to compare every single entry to come up with a full ranking, BUT imagine being 7th and never finding out!


----------



## schrodinger1612

Yeah that would be a bummer....but I think it'll just be the winner and 5 runners up that are announced.

I get the feeling they're only going to pay attention to the top ranking YT videos, just to save time. Hope not though as that will automatically take us latecomers out of the loop.


----------



## Eptesicus

michalioz said:


> Does anyone know if there is going to be a ranking for the first 20 people or top 1%? I understand that there is going to be a winner and 5 runner-ups and it's time consuming to compare every single entry to come up with a full ranking, BUT imagine being 7th and never finding out!



Yeh some honorable mentions would be cool, even if you didnt make the top 6. .


----------



## Eptesicus

schrodinger1612 said:


> I get the feeling they're only going to pay attention to the top ranking YT videos, just to save time.



I really hope not as that would be incredibly unfair.

This shouldn't be a popularity contest. It would be quite easy to get your video further up the rankings if you have lots of friends and family.

Also, that would put people who upload theirs right at the end (possibly so no one steals their ideas) at a big disadvantage.


----------



## schrodinger1612

Eptesicus said:


> I really hope not as that would be incredibly unfair.
> 
> This shouldn't be a popularity contest. It would be quite easy to get your video further up the rankings if you have lots of friends and family.



Would be unfair; im hoping they will give everyone the attention they deserve and that i'm just being overly cynical  FTR most of the best ones i've heard so far have had a very low view count.


----------



## michalioz

schrodinger1612 said:


> Would be unfair; im hoping they will give everyone the attention they deserve and that i'm just being overly cynical  FTR most of the best ones i've heard so far have had a very low view count.



They are going to give everyone their 4 minutes and 16 seconds: "Every entry will be listened to in full by a panel from Spitfire Audio that includes our founders Paul Thomson and Christian Henson."

I think it's a good idea to disable likes/comments in such competitions to avoid any presentation bias. Also enforcing a dB level for the deliverable would be nice to avoid the loudness war (and again presentation bias).

Anyway, given the appetite for such competitions, I hope to see hundreds of them coming up!


----------



## Eptesicus

michalioz said:


> They are going to give everyone their 4 minutes and 16 seconds: "Every entry will be listened to in full by a panel from Spitfire Audio that includes our founders Paul Thomson and Christian Henson."



That is good. So i guess they will shortlist the best for the shows directors/Ramin, which i think is fair enough.


----------



## J-M

Did I understand correctly that you're only allowed to upload the video to Youtube during the competition? Life happened and I don't have the time to make anything decent now...


----------



## CyrilBellem

Here is my entry for the competition, I really enjoyed doing it 

Feel free to comment!


----------



## Eptesicus

MrLinssi said:


> Did I understand correctly that you're only allowed to upload the video to Youtube during the competition? Life happened and I don't have the time to make anything decent now...



Well they are starting to judge them from the 4th so yes. They have to have some cut off.


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

MrLinssi said:


> Did I understand correctly that you're only allowed to upload the video to Youtube during the competition? Life happened and I don't have the time to make anything decent now...



if you start now, that would be a good example of how much time you'd actually get on a gig like this.


----------



## J-M

@Eptesicus I meant that one can't upload the video as an exercise? (long after the competition)

@Richard Wilkinson That's a good point, but I'm just a glorified bedroom composer, meaning that at my level I can't provide anything useful that fast...yet. :D


----------



## Sunny Schramm

Sadly I could not finish it because I got sick again #Cancer #Depression. But I like the energy loaded vibe of the drums and how it fits this chase scene and some special moments without loosing the feeling of danger. So I still wanna share it with you.


----------



## frioventus

I gave up that I couldn't finish on time, but today my morning mood was good and I finished it.


----------



## TomislavEP

OK. I have very little experience in scoring to picture so far and this is my first time composing a chase sequence. Furthermore, I know absolutely nothing about Westworld - such shows and films were never my things. On top of it all, I ran into all kinds of tech issues while trying to finish this. As it was said many times before, the most important aspect is the ability to learn from this experience. Anyway, here is my entry.


----------



## Mnlth

Barely managed to put a composition together, here's my rushed attempt. Good luck everyone.


----------



## jonathanparham

Here's Mine


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

jonathanparham said:


> Here's Mine



Did you intend to hit any of the hitpoints here? Just seems like the music is not really acknowledging anything on screen...


----------



## Thysmusic.com

I submitted an entry as well!

Curious what you guys think of it. 

I focused more on the "psychedelic experience" part of the action, and less so on the "car-chase", because I don't think the scene really is about the carchase and the gunshots. For me the scene is about Caleb tripping, it's about him missing the shot rather than firing it, and it's about Dolores being in a weird and confident kind of control throughout all the chaos.


----------



## jonathanparham

Richard Wilkinson said:


> Did you intend to hit any of the hitpoints here? Just seems like the music is not really acknowledging anything on screen...


Good critique. I was just writing and seeing what was coming out.


----------



## achabloopada8000

This is my entry, I really hope you'll enjoy it! I listened to many great compositions in this thread, good luck to every competitor!


----------



## Rasoul Morteza

jonathanparham said:


> Here's Mine



Definitely needs more Piccolo.


----------



## Rasoul Morteza

CyrilBellem said:


> Here is my entry for the competition, I really enjoyed doing it
> 
> Feel free to comment!



Everyone is posting their submission so I randomly selected a work here to listen to. You are the victim!

The debut works fine, the perc rhythm is fine too. I like the groove. The ostinato line works with the perc as well. I understand that repetition is one of various techniques used to create tension in a piece, but its more like cake. Too much of it and you will bloat. You could have selected any Str Ens patch and wrote a few chords to spice it up. Doesn't mean that it's not effective though.

Be quite careful how you transition between different drum patterns. Your transition may sound just fine after listening to it a thousand times during production but it might come off as unexpected to an unprepared listener. You also have to ask yourself what is happening on the screen that warrants a dramatic shift.

Let's say you were to reduce the whole thing on to the keyboard, how would it be? Now I know that there's nothing inherently wrong with such genre of hybrid orchestral writing, but I would suggest listening to something like Molossus to take this type of writing to a next level. If you aim at repetition, then the key would be subtlety to make it musical. 

Also with this type of music it is preferable for it to be 2nd priority compared to the sound FX in terms of loudness, but I don't think the SA guys will care too much about post prod neatness. 

Good job and keep it up.
RM


----------



## schrodinger1612

This is my pre-submission, will probably add a few finishing touches tomorrow. Feedback welcome though go easy


----------



## blackzeroaudio

A ton of really good entries in here, talent on this board never ceases to amaze me. 

This competition was a lot of fun, still have a lot to learn but had a great time working through this. 

Good luck to all participants.


----------



## Rasoul Morteza

schrodinger1612 said:


> This is my pre-submission, will probably add a few finishing touches tomorrow. Feedback welcome though go easy



If you haven't submitted it yet, I highly suggest bringing forth the dialogue and FX track. Always respect the dialogue track, it's king. If a volume gain doesn't help because of your master buss clipping, you can also try some vocal range stereo separation on the dialogue track instead and it should help.


----------



## Rasoul Morteza

blackzeroaudio said:


> A ton of really good entries in here, talent on this board never ceases to amaze me.
> 
> This competition was a lot of fun, still have a lot to learn but had a great time working through this.
> 
> Good luck to all participants.



Needs more Vuvuzela.


----------



## kolton

Here's my take.
Good luck to all !


View attachment Westworld Scoring Competition[dankolton].mp4


----------



## musicalweather

I threw my hat in the ring today. Decided, like a few others here, to focus on the head trip of the Aaron Paul character. My idea was to give it a Rat Pack flavor. Good luck to all!


----------



## cug

I love the spirit of this thread. So much great advice and support for those looking for feedback. Good luck to everyone! I spent way too much time on it but I love the challenge of scoring multiple genres and making it work. Here's my entry:


----------



## cug

kolton said:


> Here's my take.
> Good luck to all !



Really COOL music! The trippy vibe is perfect!


----------



## snattack

michalioz said:


> Does anyone know if there is going to be a ranking for the first 20 people or top 1%? I understand that there is going to be a winner and 5 runner-ups and it's time consuming to compare every single entry to come up with a full ranking, BUT imagine being 7th and never finding out!



Why would they ever do that and at the same time state "you can edit your entry until the deadline" note in the application? This is pure (ungrounded) speculation.

I believe they'll listen the first 15 seconds, then jump a bit to check if it's worth it, and if it is: listen through the entire thing.


----------



## snattack

My take.


----------



## CyrilBellem

Rasoul Morteza said:


> Everyone is posting their submission so I randomly selected a work here to listen to. You are the victim!
> 
> The debut works fine, the perc rhythm is fine too. I like the groove. The ostinato line works with the perc as well. I understand that repetition is one of various techniques used to create tension in a piece, but its more like cake. Too much of it and you will bloat. You could have selected any Str Ens patch and wrote a few chords to spice it up. Doesn't mean that it's not effective though.
> 
> Be quite careful how you transition between different drum patterns. Your transition may sound just fine after listening to it a thousand times during production but it might come off as unexpected to an unprepared listener. You also have to ask yourself what is happening on the screen that warrants a dramatic shift.
> 
> Let's say you were to reduce the whole thing on to the keyboard, how would it be? Now I know that there's nothing inherently wrong with such genre of hybrid orchestral writing, but I would suggest listening to something like Molossus to take this type of writing to a next level. If you aim at repetition, then the key would be subtlety to make it musical.
> 
> Also with this type of music it is preferable for it to be 2nd priority compared to the sound FX in terms of loudness, but I don't think the SA guys will care too much about post prod neatness.
> 
> Good job and keep it up.
> RM



Thank you for your feedback, really interesting to read 

You are right, I tried to do some chords progression to spice it up but I felt there was less tension 
therefore. So I decided to maintain the tension by repitition, I think the variation comes with key modulation that occurs along the scene.

I understand what you say about drum pattern transition, it can be surprising (as key modulation), that's what I wanted (maybe it's too much ?)

Thanks for the suggestion (Molossus) and again for this analysis 

Do you also have an entry ?


----------



## sampaultoms

Here is mine...


----------



## michalioz

snattack said:


> Why would they ever do that and at the same time state "you can edit your entry until the deadline" note in the application? This is pure (ungrounded) speculation.
> 
> I believe they'll listen the first 15 seconds, then jump a bit to check if it's worth it, and if it is: listen through the entire thing.



They clearly said they are going to listen to everything end to end.


----------



## Greeno

Hello everyone

this was my first attempt at scoring, it was fun and I'm pleased with the outcome


----------



## digikleuter

Owkee, so here goes! 
I don't own any library's accept the freebees, so this is what I came up with! 
Love some feedback!


----------



## snattack

michalioz said:


> They clearly said they are going to listen to everything end to end.



I missed that  I wonder if that means the entire panel will do that, or if they will split it up individually. It will take them quite some time I assume.


----------



## Sunny Schramm

yes - a lot of time with over 7000 entries with 4:30 minutes each 😀


----------



## schrodinger1612

Rasoul Morteza said:


> If you haven't submitted it yet, I highly suggest bringing forth the dialogue and FX track. Always respect the dialogue track, it's king. If a volume gain doesn't help because of your master buss clipping, you can also try some vocal range stereo separation on the dialogue track instead and it should help.



Thanks for the tip. At which frequencies would it serve me best to apply the SS on the dialogue track?Everything above 2hz perhaps? Or maybe between 2 ans 8 khz. Does the production quality sound reasonable to you? I normally produce rock orientated stuff....but combined with orchestral instruments? Whole other ball game....


----------



## P3TAAL

Sunny Schramm said:


> yes - a lot of time with over 7000 entries with 4:30 minutes each 😀



I think they might only listen up to a point and only continue if they think it's worth it!


----------



## Loïc D

schrodinger1612 said:


> Thanks for the tip. At which frequencies would it serve me best to apply the SS on the dialogue track?Everything above 2hz perhaps? Or maybe between 2 ans 8 khz. Does the production quality sound reasonable to you? I normally produce rock orientated stuff....but combined with orchestral instruments? Whole other ball game....


I’ve been avoiding modifying the dialog / fx track, unless some scarce automation.
I’ve adapted my arrangement instead


----------



## toomanynotes

Sunny Schramm said:


> yes - a lot of time with over 7000 entries with 4:30 minutes each 😀


they should have only given us 1 week to compose.


----------



## toomanynotes

Sunny Schramm said:


> yes - a lot of time with over 7000 entries with 4:30 minutes each 😀


My calculations tell me it would take 19 days 24/7 to listen to 7000 tracks.


----------



## Loïc D

toomanynotes said:


> My calculations tell me it would take 19 days 24/7 to listen to 7000 tracks.



They’ll split the entries between Spitfire employees, I guess


----------



## Hellfog

Here is mine.


----------



## CyrilBellem

Sunny Schramm said:


> yes - a lot of time with over 7000 entries with 4:30 minutes each 😀



You think there is over 7000 entries ?


----------



## digikleuter

If it doesn't strike you the first minute, way listen further?


----------



## michalioz

Even if there are 7000 - split in 6 is 1166 tracks per person which is about 4666 minutes per person, which is 77.7 hours per person which is ~9.7 working days. They must have started since 3 May and only re-listen something after and if it has been edited. It can definitely happen. Listening to different tracks straight 8 hours per day can affect your judgement for sure, but hey, this is how it works now.

I am sure they're doing everything they can to give everyone equal opportunity.


----------



## Hellfog

If I had to listen to over 7000 tracks in a couple of weeks I have been mental


----------



## Loïc D

michalioz said:


> Even if there are 7000 - split in 6 is 1166 tracks per person


I’m pretty sure they’ll ask Spitfire employees to do the first selection.
So you can divide by 70 and then 100 track per person and it’s much more manageable.

Let’s ask this to @christianhenson directly for a future vlog : how will you manage to proceed and rate each WW entry ?


----------



## toomanynotes

digikleuter said:


> If it doesn't strike you the first minute, way listen further?


Min is too long, I cld get through 100 in 20 mins, I only listen to 5-10secs then a tap fast forward..then I’m done. Infact after my submission I got through a few and found I only needed 10 secs to know which way this was heading.


----------



## Kejero

Interesting to see how everybody makes small to significantly different spotting decisions.

Guess which pill I gave to _my Aaron_!


----------



## shomynik

I decided to ignore the whole genre thing and went with a more typical scoring work as a practice.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

I doubt there would be 7000 entries. A few days ago there were just over 500 on YouTube.


----------



## Loïc D

Wolfie2112 said:


> I doubt there would be 7000 entries. A few days ago there were just over 500 on YouTube.


Usually entries on contests are 300-500 - I have no official figures though, take it with a handful of salt.
But this one is free, based on a popular show, with a nice prize and a AAA jury, so I’d guess 1000-1500 this time.


----------



## Rasoul Morteza

schrodinger1612 said:


> Thanks for the tip. At which frequencies would it serve me best to apply the SS on the dialogue track?Everything above 2hz perhaps? Or maybe between 2 ans 8 khz. Does the production quality sound reasonable to you? I normally produce rock orientated stuff....but combined with orchestral instruments? Whole other ball game....


You're welcome. Sorry I'm late, but you can start experimenting with the following ranges: 
< 115Hz : Good amount of separation
115-800: Moderate amount
6K-20K: Moderate amount

Although these are merely a starting point. I'm also no authority to comment about your production, although from memory it sounded just fine.


----------



## Rasoul Morteza

CyrilBellem said:


> Thank you for your feedback, really interesting to read
> 
> You are right, I tried to do some chords progression to spice it up but I felt there was less tension
> therefore. So I decided to maintain the tension by repitition, I think the variation comes with key modulation that occurs along the scene.
> 
> I understand what you say about drum pattern transition, it can be surprising (as key modulation), that's what I wanted (maybe it's too much ?)
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion (Molossus) and again for this analysis
> 
> Do you also have an entry ?


You're welcome. I do have an entry but it's quite flawed, if you insist however you should easily find it on YouTube.

BTW for those interested in the total number of submissions, a quick search led me to an approximate count of 350 results. Those claiming that there are like 7000 entries please provide proof because there's no way they can cover them all before the upcoming deadline.


----------



## Manaberry

toomanynotes said:


> now that’s comedy! 🤪 your piece better make me laugh!



Here is your daily dose of fun.


I've fucked up my bass drum (forgot to eq it, I got like 40 mins to clean 35 tracks) so the compressor is swinging as hell at 03:08 haha

That was fun. Now back to real business!


----------



## josephwmorgan

Is anyone having trouble where when you upload your video YOUR audio/music is removed but the show's audio remains?


----------



## Kejero

josephwmorgan said:


> Is anyone having trouble where when you upload your video YOUR audio/music is removed but the show's audio remains?


Youtube isn't capable of doing that, afaik. Are you sure you're uploading the right file?


----------



## quentinkoons

I hope I'm the only one using trap drums. If not please share the others with me!


----------



## C-Land

I thought it was very interesting scene with many options and heard so many interesting basic approaches.
I thought it was important to emphasize the change of genres with two different tempi/meter/rythmic feels.
And after the genre change it’s not just an action scene for me, it’s also about fun as the female character shows us that nothing really serious can happen, it’s more about enjoying a kind of game.
I‘m not into Westworld so maybe I’m all wrong ..

Here’s my take on it:


----------



## Dan Silva

Many brilliant entries here, with various interesting and creative ways to approach the scene. Good luck to everybody!

Here is my track. It was my first time writing music to video, and it certainly was a great experience.


----------



## jononotbono

I read earlier there are 70,000 entries.

Actually I have no idea but I might as well whore my entry in this thread as well


----------



## Rasoul Morteza

quentinkoons said:


> I hope I'm the only one using trap drums. If not please share the others with me!



IMO, I suggest listening to Ludwig Göransson's Black Panther score to see how the rather metallic and in-face sound of such trap drum pattern could be smoothed out by some orchestration, and of course ketchup loads of reverb and high-end taming.

I wonder how it would've sounded to you if you solo'ed the track without the video, does it sound too heroic for an action scene? The more vocabulary you have in terms of chromatic writing and modulation the better you are able to confine your cues without getting into the extremes. Very important if you're mostly a melodic composer. Wagner or Bach can help you with that.

Cadences have rather direct emotional impacts. When the car explodes and the chase is over, why not fully resolve it? It might have worked depending on the aftermath if you were scoring the actual show, but this clip pretty much ends there. Bad guys are gone for good. No need for further suspense, we just watched 4mins of suspense didn't we.

Good job and good luck!


----------



## SamC

I came to it about 3 weeks too late! But had a great time giving it a go. Always fun working with such a dynamic scene - very challenging. Great work everyone, all the best to those who entered!


----------



## Yogevs

Between 30k and 40k submissions. How are they ever going to finish it 



#westworldscoringcompetition2020 http://www.youtube.com - Google Search


----------



## Arviwan

If anyone isn't fed up with this, here is mine ! 
A director i know said it was quite consensual but very "spot on" ... what do you think ?


----------



## josephspirits

jononotbono said:


> I read earlier there are 70,000 entries.
> 
> Actually I have no idea but I might as well whore my entry in this thread as well




I watched this the other day and dug it, but just watched it again and really love it. I really am glad they chose this genre-switching scene because it allowed for so many different kinds of takes, this being a prime example. Makes me want to go out and play guitar!

I also embraced the genre switch, as a fan of the show and this episode in particular, I really wanted to have fun doing something I don't normally get to do. I probably spent way more time than I had on this, but I just couldn't help myself once I got going.

*Presenting... a jazzy genre change*


----------



## josephspirits

Arviwan said:


> If anyone isn't fed up with this, here is mine !
> A director i know said it was quite consensual but very "spot on" ... what do you think ?




Some really great sound choices here, and blended very well together, made it a great ride. Also, really effective panning and FX keeping things interesting and moving, especially when listening back on my monitors. Loved the badass ending as the chromey metal cherry on top!


----------



## josephwmorgan

Kejero said:


> Youtube isn't capable of doing that, afaik. Are you sure you're uploading the right file?



Another user here said it happened to his video also. And it happened to four different versions I tried uploading. Was excited to participate in this but Spitfire won’t allow me to update my link unfortunately.


----------



## michalioz

Yogevs said:


> Between 30k and 40k submissions. How are they ever going to finish it
> 
> 
> 
> #westworldscoringcompetition2020 http://www.youtube.com - Google Search



Not accurate. You have to add a search operator to do this, i.e. site: https://www.youtube.com/ which returns 19,600. This shouldn't be accurate as well and might contain duplicated results (showing both desktop and mobile results or similar). 

In any case, this is not a reliable way of counting results as Google search is optimised for fetching relevant results first, not counting everything.


----------



## Pando

There are about 550+ entries currently. That includes a few that may have been submitted after the cutoff time, so the actual number is a bit less.

I counted the search returns for the hashtag in Youtube. Who knows if the search returns everything, but I'm getting a consistent count of 554 with multiple searches (hashtag only, not the keyword).





YouTube


Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.




www.youtube.com


----------



## Cheezus

josephspirits said:


> I watched this the other day and dug it, but just watched it again and really love it. I really am glad they chose this genre-switching scene because it allowed for so many different kinds of takes, this being a prime example. Makes me want to go out and play guitar!
> 
> I also embraced the genre switch, as a fan of the show and this episode in particular, I really wanted to have fun doing something I don't normally get to do. I probably spent way more time than I had on this, but I just couldn't help myself once I got going.
> 
> *Presenting... a jazzy genre change*




I love this! The jazzy drums + bass are awesome and the horns sound really great.


----------



## Yogevs

Pando said:


> There are about 550+ entries currently. That includes a few that may have been submitted after the cutoff time, so the actual number is a bit less.
> 
> I counted the search returns for the hashtag in Youtube. Who knows if the search returns everything, but I'm getting a consistent count of 554 with multiple searches (hashtag only, not the keyword).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YouTube
> 
> 
> Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.youtube.com



Counted - as in manually :O?

I wonder how Google takes ~550 and multiplies them by 60...


----------



## Pando

Yogevs said:


> Counted - as in manually :O?
> 
> I wonder how Google takes ~550 and multiplies them by 60...


No, lol. Scroll to the end, select the list, export to Excel, Ctrl-F, Find All "NOW PLAYING". Takes about 20 seconds.


----------



## Pando

Someone downloaded 300+ entries and let them play all at once :D


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

Pando said:


> Someone downloaded 300+ entries and let them play all at once :D




Shoutout to whoever's lone track you can hear at 4:58 onwards. They stood alone, out of the 300


----------



## josephspirits

Cheezus said:


> I love this! The jazzy drums + bass are awesome and the horns sound really great.



Thanks for the kind feedback, I worked a lot using what I had, but was not used to trying to working with a lot of those improvised rhythms had to go "off the grid," if you know what I'm saying.


----------



## jononotbono

josephspirits said:


> I watched this the other day and dug it, but just watched it again and really love it. I really am glad they chose this genre-switching scene because it allowed for so many different kinds of takes, this being a prime example. Makes me want to go out and play guitar!
> 
> I also embraced the genre switch, as a fan of the show and this episode in particular, I really wanted to have fun doing something I don't normally get to do. I probably spent way more time than I had on this, but I just couldn't help myself once I got going.
> 
> *Presenting... a jazzy genre change*




Thanks man. I’m gonna have a few beers tonight and can’t wait to see what you did!


----------



## Mukkenerd

Ok, guys, i don`t know how your numbers got counted but i counted the youtube entries manually, piece by piece, and 1 week before the competition closed, there where round about 320 entries, if you just clicked on the hashtag and filtered to show all entries this year with the requested competition hashtag. In the first week there were no more than 60 entries. I probably would go with the person in this forum who estimated about 550. But i think thats even too high. The one who linked the estimation from google search with thousands of entries...If you check google only has 6 search sites with this link and not all search finds relate to the competition, so its way lower than google shows in the counts. Thousands of entries would be absolutely bonkers, to go through and listen to it properly and since i think that spitfire is not a big company numbers wise, there is no way they could go through thousands of entries in just 16 days from june 3 until june 19th. Just thoughts


----------



## Eptesicus

Mukkenerd said:


> Ok, guys, i don`t know how your numbers got counted but i counted the youtube entries manually, piece by piece, and 1 week before the competition closed, there where round about 320 entries, if you just clicked on the hashtag and filtered to show all entries this year with the requested competition hashtag. In the first week there were no more than 60 entries. I probably would go with the person in this forum who estimated about 550. But i think thats even too high. The one who linked the estimation from google search with thousands of entries...If you check google only has 6 search sites with this link and not all search finds relate to the competition, so its way lower than google shows in the counts. Thousands of entries would be absolutely bonkers, to go through and listen to it properly and since i think that spitfire is not a big company numbers wise, there is no way they could go through thousands of entries in just 16 days from june 3 until june 19th. Just thoughts



There are way more than a few hundred....


----------



## Mukkenerd

Eptesicus said:


> There are way more than a few hundred....


How so? I mean i could be very wrong but i counted them myself. If you have some info how to calculate otherwise, please share. I would be interested how to count the proper number, since i participated myself in this competition. Thx in advance!


----------



## Eptesicus

Mukkenerd said:


> How so? I mean i could be very wrong but i counted them myself. If you have some info how to calculate otherwise, please share. I would be interested how to count the proper number, since i participated myself in this competition. Thx in advance!



Well, there were a few hundred posted on just the Facebook virtual orchestration page post about it for a start. 

Unless everyone who has taken part is a member of that page I get the impression there are a lot more.


----------



## Mukkenerd

Good thought, but i only counted the ones with the requested hashtag on youtube. Maybe Youtubes algorithm doesn`t show everything or many posted without the hashtag or with the wrong one. I mean, you could just count for yourself. It didn`t take me more then some minutes.


----------



## michalioz

I don't think it's possible to come up with the actual number since a participant can share the video with Spitfire but have listed as private/unlisted. This way it won't be searchable and you can only view it if you have the link.


----------



## Mukkenerd

michalioz said:


> I don't think it's possible to come up with the actual number since a participant can share the video with Spitfire but have listed as private/unlisted. This way it won't be searchable and you can only view it if you have the link.


Ok, I see. This, i didn`t take into account. My bad. Makes sense


----------



## EasterIslandStatue

michalioz said:


> I don't think it's possible to come up with the actual number since a participant can share the video with Spitfire but have listed as private/unlisted. This way it won't be searchable and you can only view it if you have the link.



I think they said in the rules it had to be public?


----------



## michalioz

EasterIslandStatue said:


> I think they said in the rules it had to be public?



Nice one. Had mine as public anyway but didn't recall this rule.


----------



## Mukkenerd

EasterIslandStatue said:


> I think they said in the rules it had to be public?


Uhh, that`s a point. I wonder how strict they will be with this. The poor ladies and lads that overlooked this^^


----------



## Supremo

OK, I have just manually counted all the entries on youtube and there appear to be 437 submissions with the westworldcompetition hashtag.


----------



## jononotbono

Supremo said:


> OK, I have just manually counted all the entries on youtube and there appear to be 437 submissions with the westworldcompetition hashtag.



Love your commitment


----------



## andrijatheloki

First of all, i came across ADVERTS that advertise this free contest. So, spitfire payed adverts, for people to apply to get the 15-20k reward... Wait a minute... They payed to advertise their contest that is free? Neat trick!  They had a discount at the time of the contest, probably they earned so much money, and sold many libraries. Heck, i almost purchased some.. I wish i did.. I really want one of those instruments...I find them most amazing. Anyhow,

I think it is a awesome advertisement for both tv show, and spitfire.Just look a the search-es, sky rocketing about westworld competition :D

BUT,

I dont say its bad, contrary, i think its really good, and amazing for so many people, some of them are composers( like me) , but some of them are not, and some of them always wanted an opportunity. Composing for yourself, is cool, but the project is what drives you forward and pressure, and that is what makes you learn and progress 1000% faster. So many people learned so much, so many people have hope now,and have that wind behind their back. I know i did!! 

Here is I believe, much more then "all of the instruments you will ever need please god", but an opportunity for much more.

For some, a step forward, and an opportunity for courage. For some is to get better and experiment outside their normal writing.For some it is a lesson of kindness and appreciation for other peoples work,getting respect and learning to respect others, writing a positive comment, and even liking . For some is just having their mind blown away by the work of others. And for some is just to learn what else can be done and which way one scene can be done. And for all of us I believe, this is an amazing opportunity, to see and learn, and see how many of us are there. How often will there be 1000 solutions for one scene? 

Good luck to everyone who applied! And those who didn't as well! 

Regards,
Loki


----------



## Supremo

jononotbono said:


> Love your commitment


Someone had to take that charge for this lazy community. )


----------



## Yogevs

And still not get the actual answer


----------



## Dale Turner

A wee bit late to the posting party! But here's yet another Westworld jam, lol.
Mighty cool hearing such a wide variety of approaches all the participating musos in this group made! How totally cool is it that HBO/SPITFIRE made this clip available to have fun with? Awesome!

Still readin'? RAD!
I intentionally left any "action-y" madness for later in the 4+mins... opting to start (slowly) like "we're about to go into our very last battle, and will likely lose some friends along the way." And a couple "tempo and sound" choices I made contributed some "campiness" factor, because that fellar (Caleb) trippin' was kind of a crackup! Happy SUN!

Dale


----------



## sebastian___

This is mine 



I've listen to quite a few for the past 2 days randomly on youtube, but I couldn't find submissions similar to mine. Meaning symphonic/orchestral or at least mostly symphonic without prominent electronic sounds.
I would be curious to listen to a few made with a symphonic approach. Does anyone has some youtube links or names for that ?


----------



## sampaultoms

sebastian___ said:


> This is mine
> 
> 
> 
> I've listen to quite a few for the past 2 days randomly on youtube, but I couldn't find submissions similar to mine. Meaning symphonic/orchestral or at least mostly symphonic without prominent electronic sounds.
> I would be curious to listen to a few made with a symphonic approach. Does anyone has some youtube links or names for that ?




Nice Work! Mine was an attempt to do something like that. I used a small amount of electronic stuff at the beginning for that more generic, modern action style but I wanted to only use the orchestra after the genre switch. I have already posted it in this thread... but here is the link again if you wanna have a watch:


----------



## al_net77

sebastian___ said:


> This is mine
> 
> 
> 
> I've listen to quite a few for the past 2 days randomly on youtube, but I couldn't find submissions similar to mine. Meaning symphonic/orchestral or at least mostly symphonic without prominent electronic sounds.
> I would be curious to listen to a few made with a symphonic approach. Does anyone has some youtube links or names for that ?




I took the orchestral way, I did not know the series nor listened to original soundtrack, but in my mind I'm stuck with the equation Abrams = orchestral  (I know it's a my mind's problem)

The link (advice: I took a different approach than others, and the first minute is introductory):


----------



## toomanynotes

al_net77 said:


> I took the orchestral way, I did not know the series nor listened to original soundtrack, but in my mind I'm stuck with the equation Abrams = orchestral  (I know it's a my mind's problem)
> 
> The link (advice: I took a different approach than others, and the first minute is introductory):



good luck!


----------



## sebastian___

Thank you for the links. I finally listened to some orchestral demos. I couldn't find demos like that on my own. It seems most contestants decided an electronic synth sound is the way to go.
Are there any more ?


----------



## jononotbono

sebastian___ said:


> Thank you for the links. I finally listened to some orchestral demos. I couldn't find demos like that on my own. It seems most contestants decided an electronic synth sound is the way to go.
> Are there any more ?



Anymore what? Scores using the Orchestra?


----------



## Jacob Cadmus

I *sort of* went orchestral with mine. Lots of electronics too, though in more of a nostalgic 90s way and less modern hybrid.


----------



## R0bb1e__

sebastian___ said:


> This is mine
> 
> 
> 
> I've listen to quite a few for the past 2 days randomly on youtube, but I couldn't find submissions similar to mine. Meaning symphonic/orchestral or at least mostly symphonic without prominent electronic sounds.
> I would be curious to listen to a few made with a symphonic approach. Does anyone has some youtube links or names for that ?




Wow that sounds great! I also attempted to write something orchestral with some generic electronic music at the start.


----------



## Fab

Jacob Cadmus said:


> I *sort of* went orchestral with mine. Lots of electronics too, though in more of a nostalgic 90s way and less modern hybrid.




Ha cool, I tried (and failed) to do the matrix style thing. Yours works though. Nice!

Any tips you learned along the way you'd be willing to share?


----------



## Rasoul Morteza

sebastian___ said:


> Thank you for the links. I finally listened to some orchestral demos. I couldn't find demos like that on my own. It seems most contestants decided an electronic synth sound is the way to go.
> Are there any more ?


My entry is orchestral if you're interested.


----------



## ben2000

sebastian___ said:


> This is mine
> 
> 
> 
> I've listen to quite a few for the past 2 days randomly on youtube, but I couldn't find submissions similar to mine. Meaning symphonic/orchestral or at least mostly symphonic without prominent electronic sounds.
> I would be curious to listen to a few made with a symphonic approach. Does anyone has some youtube links or names for that ?




mine is 100% orchestral:


----------



## jononotbono

@NoamL Did you enter this in the end? You promised you wouldn’t make any excuses!


----------



## NoamL

I genuinely didn't have time  How about you Luke?

EDIT: also there are 11k entries hot damn!


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

NoamL said:


> I genuinely didn't have time  How about you Luke?
> 
> EDIT: also there are 11k entries hot damn!



Where are you seeing 11k??


----------



## jononotbono

NoamL said:


> I genuinely didn't have time  How about you Luke?
> 
> EDIT: also there are 11k entries hot damn!



I'm disappointed. I only entered it to be destroyed by your entry. 

11k You sure that's not your top hearing range after a few beers? 
How have you seen that number? That's quite a few isn't it! Blimey! haha!


----------



## NoamL

jononotbono said:


> I'm disappointed. I only entered it to be destroyed by your entry.
> 
> 11k You sure that's not your top hearing range after a few beers?
> How have you seen that number? That's quite a few isn't it! Blimey! haha!



Oh I'm going off what @Paul Cardon said.


----------



## Paul Cardon

NoamL said:


> Oh I'm going off what @Paul Cardon said.


I uhh...


----------



## CT




----------



## NYC Composer

Only 11,000? I expected more-not kidding.


----------



## Dale Turner

sebastian___ said:


> Thank you for the links. I finally listened to some orchestral demos. I couldn't find demos like that on my own. It seems most contestants decided an electronic synth sound is the way to go.
> Are there any more ?



Here are a few orchestral-oriented ones that some of my muso pals (1. William Malpede 2. Reuven Herman 3. Eduardo Victoria) did. All badass!!!!! 
 
 


Dale


----------



## Loïc D

Mine is 90% orchestral too.
Then there’s 9% real guitars.
And less than 1% GMO synths.
Natural & organic


----------



## Jon K

I tried to add a bit of a more melodic emotional element rather than a high paced action cue. Recorded some live guitar and violin also for the ending.


----------



## al_net77

From Spitfire site:

*Thank you to everyone who entered the Westworld Scoring Competition. Judging is now underway, which means you will no longer be able to make changes to your submission. Due to the exceptional number of entries, the winner and runners-up will now be announced on June 27th. We will email every entrant with an invite to the official announcement soon. Best of luck to everyone who participated!*


----------



## Dale Turner

al_net77 said:


> From Spitfire site:
> 
> *Thank you to everyone who entered the Westworld Scoring Competition. Judging is now underway, which means you will no longer be able to make changes to your submission. Due to the exceptional number of entries, the winner and runners-up will now be announced on June 27th. We will email every entrant with an invite to the official announcement soon. Best of luck to everyone who participated!*



Thanks for the updated info, *al_net77!!! Loads of entries, indeed! Cooool! I'm glad you saw that and shared the news *

Spam salad:

**


----------



## jononotbono

al_net77 said:


> From Spitfire site:
> 
> *Thank you to everyone who entered the Westworld Scoring Competition. Judging is now underway, which means you will no longer be able to make changes to your submission. Due to the exceptional number of entries, the winner and runners-up will now be announced on June 27th. We will email every entrant with an invite to the official announcement soon. Best of luck to everyone who participated!*



Definitely not surprised. There have been 14,056 submissions after all.


----------



## Rasoul Morteza

jononotbono said:


> Definitely not surprised. There have been 14,056 submissions after all.


Could you please tell me how you came to that number? Thanks.


----------



## Michael Stibor

sebastian___ said:


> This is mine
> 
> 
> 
> I've listen to quite a few for the past 2 days randomly on youtube, but I couldn't find submissions similar to mine. Meaning symphonic/orchestral or at least mostly symphonic without prominent electronic sounds.
> I would be curious to listen to a few made with a symphonic approach. Does anyone has some youtube links or names for that ?



Very nicely done! Mine is all orchestral (some synth more as a new thing than anything). Was going for more of a Goldsmith/Kamen Die Hard style vibe. So it’s not exactly the same. But I definitely wanted to keep it “real”


----------



## toomanynotes

al_net77 said:


> From Spitfire site:
> 
> *Thank you to everyone who entered the Westworld Scoring Competition. Judging is now underway, which means you will no longer be able to make changes to your submission. Due to the exceptional number of entries, the winner and runners-up will now be announced on June 27th. We will email every entrant with an invite to the official announcement soon. Best of luck to everyone who participated!*


They only need another week to listen to 1000 hours of music. Excellent


----------



## Iswhatitis

jononotbono said:


> Definitely not surprised. There have been 14,056 submissions after all.


I tried listening to as many as possible and frankly I’ve not heard one cue so far that works with picture. Hopefully everyone had fun creating their music since I don’t hear any winners and I can’t imagine how much listening someone has to do to find one. I’m already burnt out trying to find one good cue.


----------



## jononotbono

Iswhatitis said:


> I tried listening to as many as possible and frankly I’ve not heard one cue so far that works with picture. Hopefully everyone had fun creating their music since I don’t hear any winners and I can’t imagine how much listening someone has to do to find one. I’m already burnt out trying to find one good cue.



Did you enter? Shame you haven't found "one good cue".


----------



## Audio Birdi

Thought I'd share mine, the ending messed up on the official version I posted to Spitfire which is the public version. Here's the fixed version  Hope you enjoy!


----------



## Audio Birdi

Iswhatitis said:


> I tried listening to as many as possible and frankly I’ve not heard one cue so far that works with picture. Hopefully everyone had fun creating their music since I don’t hear any winners and I can’t imagine how much listening someone has to do to find one. I’m already burnt out trying to find one good cue.


how would you have done it? since you didn't find any winners. Just curious if your own version is available to listen to.


----------



## Alex Fraser

Anyone have the exact number of entries? Has it been published? I've only seen a few wild numbers - I haven't been following this thread and so I'm out of the loop on any running gags.


----------



## al_net77

I think we will get the numbers on 27...


----------



## Dale Turner

Iswhatitis said:


> I tried listening to as many as possible and frankly I’ve not heard one cue so far that works with picture. Hopefully everyone had fun creating their music since I don’t hear any winners and I can’t imagine how much listening someone has to do to find one. I’m already burnt out trying to find one good cue.



You're the same wizard that wrote this (then deleted it) about my friends' works above:

["Bad, bad, bad. Not bad as in badass, bad as in they are mediocre cues, totally forgettable music and not appropriate or strong enough for the scene. I don’t like any of these three at all and none will win!!! Are you on drugs?"] 

So clearly you're a gent of superior taste! Please enlighten us! Where have we all gone wrong? Throw us a bone! It's almost like... I ... can.... finally.... seeeee... the light!!!


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Dale Turner said:


> You're the same wizard that wrote this (then deleted it) about my friends' works above:
> 
> ["Bad, bad, bad. Not bad as in badass, bad as in they are mediocre cues, totally forgettable music and not appropriate or strong enough for the scene. I don’t like any of these three at all and none will win!!! Are you on drugs?"]
> 
> So clearly you're a gent of superior taste! Please enlighten us! Where have we all gone wrong? Throw us a bone! It's almost like... I ... can.... finally.... seeeee... the light!!!



Did he post a video as well? If so, I’d love to see it so we can all know how to properly score.


----------



## Dale Turner

Wolfie2112 said:


> Did he post a video as well? If so, I’d love to see it so we can all know how to properly score.



Yes, a shame that we've all been headed down the wrong road for so long!! I can't wait to see the error of our ways (apparently ALL possible ways)! I am most grateful for the "course correction" we're about to luck into! Once we hear what he did.

Oh wait!! I can't find his vid either (*sniffle*)


----------



## retroreel

Iswhatitis said:


> I tried listening to as many as possible and frankly I’ve not heard one cue so far that works with picture. Hopefully everyone had fun creating their music since I don’t hear any winners and I can’t imagine how much listening someone has to do to find one. I’m already burnt out trying to find one good cue.


Bit arrogant.


----------



## Loïc D

I think we’re staypufted again.


----------



## jononotbono

I just wanna know how many entries there are! We must be at 18,000 by now right!! 😂


----------



## Iswhatitis

retroreel said:


> Bit arrogant.


Just being honest. There is a noticeable difference between professionals and hobbyists when it comes to talent.

I bet you can’t find one single cue that sounds awesome 👏 Feel free to reply to me with the post and I will check it out. Is it possible some of them are amazing? Sure, but I’ve yet to hear one that is.


----------



## Audio Birdi

Iswhatitis said:


> Just being honest. There is a noticeable difference between professionals and hobbyists when it comes to talent.
> 
> I bet you can’t find one single cue that sounds awesome 👏 Feel free to reply to me with the post and I will check it out. Is it possible some of them are amazing? Sure, but I’ve yet to hear one that is.


So is your own listening ability classed as a hobbyist?


----------



## Iswhatitis

Audio Birdi said:


> So is your own listening ability classed as a hobbyist?


Yawn 🥱. Muhahahahahahaha!!! 👺


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Iswhatitis said:


> Just being honest. There is a noticeable difference between professionals and hobbyists when it comes to talent.
> 
> I bet you can’t find one single cue that sounds awesome 👏 Feel free to reply to me with the post and I will check it out. Is it possible some of them are amazing? Sure, but I’ve yet to hear one that is.



Wow, I can't believe your arrogance. IMO, every entry that I've heard is awesome in it's own right (and I've checked out a lot of them). I'm not a fan of some (just not my taste), but they are excellent nonetheless. Can we hear your entry? If you didn't bother to create one, then you are in no place to throw such insulting criticism.


----------



## Alex Fraser

I’ve heard some great entries. A couple had me smiling away in awe whist simultaneously throwing mental hate at the obvious talent of the composer. 
There’s some clever cookies out there. 

I’m really interested to know what the judges are ultimately looking for. A few entries have blatantly took the pi$$, deliberately creating soundtracks which only vaguely suit the picture, or do so in a way that the director would never sign off on...yet showcase an amazing talent and imagination.


----------



## Iswhatitis

Wolfie2112 said:


> Wow, I can't believe your arrogance. IMO, every entry that I've heard is awesome in it's own right (and I've checked out a lot of them). I'm not a fan of some (just not my taste), but they are excellent nonetheless. Can we hear your entry? If you didn't bother to create one, then you are in no place to throw such insulting criticism.


I should be appreciated and thanked for taking the time to listen to entries not villified.

I would only write music for Westworld if they hired me, I have no interest in writing music for a show for free.

There are so many entries that maybe there are many good ones out there that I simply have yet to hear, which I said in my post but apparently you did not read that part. Even you recognize you are not a fan of some so does that make you arrogant by your own definition?!

The listener has absolutely every right to comment as without an audience who cares about the performance. People’s opinions determine the success Or failure of a movie, tv show, book, live concert tour, live event, product. If people don’t like something they tend not to watch it or listen to it or buy it and that product fails. So my opinion does matter though it’s only one opinion. I’m not a judge of this competition, but I did say I hope people had fun creating their cues. You need to chill out 🥱

If you submitted an entry I’d be willing to listen to it, maybe it’s fantastic, maybe it’s mediocre, maybe it sucks! 🤔🧐


----------



## Alex Fraser

Iswhatitis said:


> I should be appreciated and thanked for taking the time to listen to entries not villified.


Comedy gold.
Definitely StayPuffed.


----------



## Mike Greene

I had to delete some of iswhatitis's posts yesterday, and although he's calmed down a little, he seems to still want battle, so I'm giving him a timeout.

One thing I should point out - If this was someone we knew (used his real name, or had a more established history, or even submitted a demo of his own), I would give a lot more leeway. Bold talk behind an anonymous handle is a different matter, though, so if someone is posting anonymously like this, I'm going to be much quicker to ban or timeout.


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

Iswhatitis said:


> I should be appreciated and thanked for taking the time to listen to entries not villified.
> 
> I would only write music for Westworld if they hired me, I have no interest in writing music for a show for free.
> 
> There are so many entries that maybe there are many good ones out there that I simply have yet to hear, which I said in my post but apparently you did not read that part. Even you recognize you are not a fan of some so does that make you arrogant by your own definition?!
> 
> The listener has absolutely every right to comment as without an audience who cares about the performance. People’s opinions determine the success Or failure of a movie, tv show, book, live concert tour, live event, product. If people don’t like something they tend not to watch it or listen to it or buy it and that product fails. So my opinion does matter though it’s only one opinion. I’m not a judge of this competition, but I did say I hope people had fun creating their cues. You need to chill out 🥱
> 
> If you submitted an entry I’d be willing to listen to it, maybe it’s fantastic, maybe it’s mediocre, maybe it sucks! 🤔🧐



You seem to have a pretty critical attitude, which is kinda what I'd be looking for in assessing my own work. Harsh feedback is still valuable feedback if you can turn it around in the right way. I posted mine on the forum some time ago, and I will link to it below. I figure I'll post it on the chance you might take the time to rip it apart :D






Spitfire Westworld Competition SPINOFF - Composition Discussion, Advice and Examples


I'd really appreciate any harsh criticism Ok. It's produced well and taken on its own is probably a little more interesting than your average cinematic action music, but it feels over the top for this scene and not really all that connected to it, neither conceptually nor structurally, though...




vi-control.net


----------



## Jay Panikkar

Alex Fraser said:


> Comedy gold.
> Definitely StayPuffed.



Is that the guy with the Darth Vader portrait picture who did some trailer rescores?


----------



## David Kudell

Thanks Mike, in what has been such an overwhelmingly positive thread, bringing so many new members to VI-C, the last thing we needed is an anonymous troll throwing hate bombs disguised as "artistic criticism." We're all smart enough to distinguish the difference between constructive criticism and just being a angry troll, and I'm glad you put a stop to it so we can go back to discussing the competition!

By the way, all you new VI-Control members, welcome to the forums!


----------



## José Herring

Alex Fraser said:


> Comedy gold.
> Definitely StayPuffed.


What does that mean? OMG I feel so left out of the joke.


----------



## Dale Turner

David Kudell said:


> By the way, all you new VI-Control members, welcome to the forums!



Weirdly, I've been a member since 2015, and have posted like 40 times, lol... (though not since 2018) Not sure why it says "new" next to my name... as I'm geeeezin'!!! But this place, of course, RAWKS!


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Jay Panikkar said:


> Is that the guy with the Darth Vader portrait picture who did some trailer rescores?



In a nutshell, back when BBCSO was released, he was trolling and one point posted some material he literally took from YouTube...claiming it was own. His avatar was Staypuft from Ghost Busters.


----------



## Jay Panikkar

Wolfie2112 said:


> In a nutshell, back when BBCSO was released, he was trolling and one point posted some material he literally took from YouTube...claiming it was own. His avatar was Staypuft from Ghost Busters.



LOL. I think this is the first time I've heard of this guy. The BBCSO thread was moving so fast for me, I couldn't keep up with the drama.


----------



## jononotbono

Would be quite amusing if the posts were actually by Ramin. “Ramin got drunk and went on VI-Control last night” 😂


----------



## Paul Cardon

Got this exclusive clip from a Spitfire employee showing off their process for judging the entries, super cool to see how they're doing it!


----------



## Dale Turner

Paul Cardon said:


> Got this exclusive clip from a Spitfire employee showing off their process for judging the entries, super cool to see how they're doing it!




Is that standard issue? BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!


----------



## Loïc D

Iswhatitis said:


> I would only write music for Westworld if they hired me, I have no interest in writing music for a show for free.



This is sooooo 2019 !
I smell marshmallow somewhere...

(sorry I guess newcomers here won’t get the joke)


----------



## Eptesicus

Dale Turner said:


> Is that standard issue? BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!



The judges will be repeating that in their sleep.

Sorry, not sleep. Repeating that whilst slowly rocking in a chair.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Paul Cardon said:


> Got this exclusive clip from a Spitfire employee showing off their process for judging the entries, super cool to see how they're doing it!




Lol! That made my day!


----------



## Rasoul Morteza

Jon K said:


> I tried to add a bit of a more melodic emotional element rather than a high paced action cue. Recorded some live guitar and violin also for the ending.



I like the rather non-linearity of your score. Nonetheless I still gravitate towards post-event scoring (a term I just made up) meaning that I generally tend not to spoil some imminent event with the score beforehand, as it kills the tension when you're pre-declaring events with your music. For instance, if an army marched into a city, would it be more surprising if they played their marching horns from a distance, signalling their arrival? For the same reason I would have omitted the first synth phrase (2s-5s). I do like the synth phrases however, sound pretty cool.

The chase action cues are scored quite heroically. When HZ was asked about his Batman theme he more or less said that the reason he went with D-F (two notes) without the resolving A was because the character wasn't deemed a hero, not yet, thus no need to give it a heroic theme. Also, the transition into the quieter parts (such as 1:29s) could have been smoothed out a bit more in terms of harmony.

The ending part 3:12s onward works very well IMO, the scene was captured.

Good job.


----------



## Jon K

Rasoul Morteza said:


> I like the rather non-linearity of your score. Nonetheless I still gravitate towards post-event scoring (a term I just made up) meaning that I generally tend not to spoil some imminent event with the score beforehand, as it kills the tension when you're pre-declaring events with your music. For instance, if an army marched into a city, would it be more surprising if they played their marching horns from a distance, signalling their arrival? For the same reason I would have omitted the first synth phrase (2s-5s). I do like the synth phrases however, sound pretty cool.
> 
> The chase action cues are scored quite heroically. When HZ was asked about his Batman theme he more or less said that the reason he went with D-F (two notes) without the resolving A was because the character wasn't deemed a hero, not yet, thus no need to give it a heroic theme. Also, the transition into the quieter parts (such as 1:29s) could have been smoothed out a bit more in terms of harmony.
> 
> The ending part 3:12s onward works very well IMO, the scene was captured.
> 
> Good job.


Hey thanks for the honest criticism which I actually agree with. I discovered the competition kind of late unfortunately and there are parts I would have definitely done a little differently. Ill give yours a listen if you wanna drop me a link.

Id say I probably listened to close to 20 or 30 different versions and ill say its been pretty interesting to hear how different and how similar some of the entries are. I dont know if I have heard one yet though that has struck me as "the one" but god damn Ive heard some great elements. If anyone has a version they heard that they think is a clear winner I would be interested in hearing it.


----------



## Rasoul Morteza

Jon K said:


> Hey thanks for the honest criticism which I actually agree with. I discovered the competition kind of late unfortunately and there are parts I would have definitely done a little differently. Ill give yours a listen if you wanna drop me a link.
> 
> Id say I probably listened to close to 20 or 30 different versions and ill say its been pretty interesting to hear how different and how similar some of the entries are. I dont know if I have heard one yet though that has struck me as "the one" but god damn Ive heard some great elements. If anyone has a version they heard that they think is a clear winner I would be interested in hearing it.


Well I would fix a thousand things with my own submission if I didn't have other pressing matters on hand, but here's my orchestral entry since you asked.


----------



## David Kudell

Jon K said:


> Hey thanks for the honest criticism which I actually agree with. I discovered the competition kind of late unfortunately and there are parts I would have definitely done a little differently. Ill give yours a listen if you wanna drop me a link.
> 
> Id say I probably listened to close to 20 or 30 different versions and ill say its been pretty interesting to hear how different and how similar some of the entries are. I dont know if I have heard one yet though that has struck me as "the one" but god damn Ive heard some great elements. If anyone has a version they heard that they think is a clear winner I would be interested in hearing it.


I don’t think there’s going to be a “clear” winner since there are so many ways to go with the scene and the genre change. I leaned hard into the genre change with an 8-bit musical style that, honestly, I though others would do as well, but it ended up being quite unique.


----------



## dzilizzi

Eptesicus said:


> The judges will be repeating that in their sleep.
> 
> Sorry, not sleep. Repeating that whilst slowly rocking in a chair.


Repeating over and over while holding their ears "what did I get myself into? WHAT DID I GET MYSELF INTO????? MY POOR EARS!!!!"

Actually, looking at that screen, "my poor eyes!"


----------



## Dale Turner

dzilizzi said:


> Repeating over and over while holding their ears "what did I get myself into? WHAT DID I GET MYSELF INTO????? MY POOR EARS!!!!"
> 
> Actually, looking at that screen, "my poor eyes!"



I think they're all gonna want to... HEAD SOUTH!


----------



## JohnG

I think some kind of Wagner thing would be awesome here.


----------



## Dale Turner

JohnG said:


> I think some kind of Wagner thing would be awesome here.


----------



## jononotbono

David Kudell said:


> honestly, I though others would do as well, but it ended up being quite unique.



Quite a few people did a genre change. Or are you specifically talking about 8bit?


----------



## David Kudell

jononotbono said:


> Quite a few people did a genre change. Or are you specifically talking about 8bit?


8bit, I think I was being paranoid. 😆


----------



## Jon K

Rasoul Morteza said:


> Well I would fix a thousand things with my own submission if I didn't have other pressing matters on hand, but here's my orchestral entry since you asked.



Great job the orchestration sounds very professional and well mixed I like the use of the drum kit over using a more orchestral drum sound.


----------



## Rasoul Morteza

Jon K said:


> Great job the orchestration sounds very professional and well mixed I like the use of the drum kit over using a more orchestral drum sound.


Thanks!


----------



## fish_hoof

Was so excited for June 19th.... now we have to wait another week to June 27th?! Probably a good thing to give more time to this to ensure everything is listened to. Still... I'm not a patient person.


----------



## El Buhdai

Can anyone send a copy of the scene without music or a link to somewhere I can get it? I haven't had the time to even download it because I've been super busy and my wifi was being very slow when I first tried to grab it. I'd like to score it on my own time just to improve but it appears the download links have been taken off the page.


----------



## olvra

El Buhdai said:


> Can anyone send a copy of the scene without music or a link to somewhere I can get it?











Westworld_305_Clip_NoMusic.mov and 3 more files


4 files sent via WeTransfer, the simplest way to send your files around the world




spitfireaudio.wetransfer.com


----------



## Dale Turner

Wasn't their a hilarious "CHICKEN" Westworld scoring vid posted here? Or somewhere? I can't find it!!! If anyone knows what I'm referring to (unless I only imagined it??), I would love to see it again... looked everywhere and failed




Maybe it was only a short vid uploaded on FB, and not actually on YouTube...

PS: Happy Birthday Brian Wilson!


----------



## Iondot

Michael Stibor said:


> Very nicely done! Mine is all orchestral (some synth more as a new thing than anything). Was going for more of a Goldsmith/Kamen Die Hard style vibe. So it’s not exactly the same. But I definitely wanted to keep it “real”



I adore this one! It's dramatic but with a fun energy. Goldsmith/Kamen goal accomplished!


----------



## Iondot

I would welcome any thoughts on my entry. The feedback we give each other is probably going to be the only feedback most of us get. 

Very standard stuff until the genre switch:


----------



## Rasoul Morteza

Iondot said:


> I would welcome any thoughts on my entry. The feedback we give each other is probably going to be the only feedback most of us get.
> 
> Very standard stuff until the genre switch:



Could you first explain your thought process behind your score? What is it that you were trying to achieve or portray?


----------



## Iondot

Rasoul Morteza said:


> Could you first explain your thought process behind your score? What is it that you were trying to achieve or portray?


Sure! I wanted to start by building tension with something that would rest very much in the background and would suggest something heroic lay ahead. Then, with the genre switch, I wanted to pivot unexpectedly to something lively, darkly comic and balletic, to underscore (pun) the absurdity in the violence.


----------



## Michael Stibor

Iondot said:


> I adore this one! It's dramatic but with a fun energy. Goldsmith/Kamen goal accomplished!


Thank you! I really appreciate that!


----------



## Rasoul Morteza

Iondot said:


> Sure! I wanted to start by building tension with something that would rest very much in the background and would suggest something heroic lay ahead. Then, with the genre switch, I wanted to pivot unexpectedly to something lively, darkly comic and balletic, to underscore (pun) the absurdity in the violence.


Thank you, well here is my personal take.

Regarding what you described, would the audience perceive the scene as such? What is the first thing that would pop into the audience's mind when watching what's going on here? You may have scored with that intent, but the question is, regardless of the fact that the music portrays the aforementioned idea, does its combination with the screen portray the same idea or has it become incoherent? Did you opt for the hitpoints, or telling a continuous story that blends with the screen?

How does the scene suggest absurdity in violence, or is the idea forced upon the scene via the score? If the scene is absurd, what warrants the unexpectedness in terms of the events taking place?

The intro's idea is in the right mood. The brass in terms of production is loud or at least starts so, which in conjunction with other orchestral elements make me wonder about Synesthesia. I find many people who attempt to score a scene to completely neglect the relationship between sound texture and color. Yes it may not be an image, but a video is simply a consecutive set of images with lighting and color profiles. This part is largely intuitive, and a good way to practice and master this concept is to rescore a scene and compare your sonic texture to that of the original. Then, compare. Discover new mixing and mastering techniques to get better sounds. Just last night I was polishing my own entry as there's always room for improvement.

You do have music vocabulary, so that is a great plus. Just try to feel the scene.

Good luck, cheers.


----------



## Iondot

Rasoul Morteza said:


> Thank you, well here is my personal take.
> 
> Regarding what you described, would the audience perceive the scene as such? What is the first thing that would pop into the audience's mind when watching what's going on here? You may have scored with that intent, but the question is, regardless of the fact that the music portrays the aforementioned idea, does its combination with the screen portray the same idea or has it become incoherent? Did you opt for the hitpoints, or telling a continuous story that blends with the screen?
> 
> How does the scene suggest absurdity in violence, or is the idea forced upon the scene via the score? If the scene is absurd, what warrants the unexpectedness in terms of the events taking place?
> 
> The intro's idea is in the right mood. The brass in terms of production is loud or at least starts so, which in conjunction with other orchestral elements make me wonder about Synesthesia. I find many people who attempt to score a scene to completely neglect the relationship between sound texture and color. Yes it may not be an image, but a video is simply a consecutive set of images with lighting and color profiles. This part is largely intuitive, and a good way to practice and master this concept is to rescore a scene and compare your sonic texture to that of the original. Then, compare. Discover new mixing and mastering techniques to get better sounds. Just last night I was polishing my own entry as there's always room for improvement.
> 
> You do have music vocabulary, so that is a great plus. Just try to feel the scene.
> 
> Good luck, cheers.



Thanks for the feedback. Without access to the director's notes, the script, or even the show (I'm still on season 2), I could only go by the clues provided. The big gun combined with Evan Rachel Wood's smirk is a tip off, as is the original score's choice to switch to Wagner – a choice too bold to read literally — absurdity in violence. It's also telling that we see no human consequence to the violence. The "villains" who chase the protagonists are faceless and dispatched with outrageous explosions. None of this feels real, but rather, like Aaron Paul is in a game — playing in a fantasy world in which he has just switched genre's. You may have seen the episode and have a much better sense of what was required. I think in a competition like this, you absolutely need to depart from the source material, and try to see what the music can make of the scene. That might be a difference of opinion. (Or I could have got it wrong.)

In terms of the relationship between sound texture and color — I'm amused and stunned. This is _exactly_ what I studied in college. And when I say that, I mean that my central thesis was literally on the relationship between music, motion and visual composition. I was obsessed with Rudolph Arnheim's brilliant work "Art and Visual Perception" and, especially Kandinsky and Helmholtz's experiments to unite sound and color. Both had a deep interest synesthesia, which isn't quite you are talking about, but I understand your meaning. It's important to note that many people who have studied these relationships have looked to find a unifying theory, but all have either come away disappointed, or decided to impose their own correspondences, which never relate to each other.

I'm sure you're right about mastering — I hit those horns as hard as I could at the start, and then backed off quite a bit so the dialogue would come through.


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

Iondot said:


> Thanks for the feedback. Without access to the director's notes, the script, or even the show (I'm still on season 2), I could only go by the clues provided. The big gun combined with Evan Rachel Wood's smirk is a tip off, as is the original score's choice to switch to Wagner – a choice too bold to read literally — absurdity in violence. It's also telling that we see no human consequence to the violence. The "villains" who chase the protagonists are faceless and dispatched with outrageous explosions. None of this feels real, but rather, like Aaron Paul is in a game — playing in a fantasy world in which he has just switched genre's. You may have seen the episode and have a much better sense of what was required. I think in a competition like this, you absolutely need to depart from the source material, and try to see what the music can make of the scene. That might be a difference of opinion. (Or I could have got it wrong.)
> 
> In terms of the relationship between sound texture and color — I'm amused and stunned. This is _exactly_ what I studied in college. And when I say that, I mean that my central thesis was literally on the relationship between music, motion and visual composition. I was obsessed with Rudolph Arnheim's brilliant work "Art and Visual Perception" and, especially Kandinsky and Helmholtz's experiments to unite sound and color. Both had a deep interest synesthesia, which isn't quite you are talking about, but I understand your meaning. It's important to note that many people who have studied these relationships have looked to find a unifying theory, but all have either come away disappointed, or decided to impose their own correspondences, which never relate to each other.
> 
> I'm sure you're right about mastering — I hit those horns as hard as I could at the start, and then backed off quite a bit so the dialogue would come through.



This is certainly gonna sound offensive, but I hope you can take it more as advice than just plain insult.

You could afford to spend more time watching and studying how music works in conventional films and TV shows. If you were to spend more time writing what a "standard" film audience _expects_ to hear, you can then begin to pepper in more experimental sound _after _you've established the fundamentals. This kind of plan would hopefully result in creating a truly unique style for yourself - one that isn't totally alien to the standard conventions of dramatic music (which can be traced back hundreds of years through Opera), while still being 'you' and speaking to your personal history and interests.


----------



## Iondot

Karl Feuerstake said:


> This is certainly gonna sound offensive, but I hope you can take it more as advice than just plain insult.
> 
> You could afford to spend more time watching and studying how music works in conventional films and TV shows. If you were to spend more time writing what a "standard" film audience _expects_ to hear, you can then begin to pepper in more experimental sound _after _you've established the fundamentals. This kind of plan would hopefully result in creating a truly unique style for yourself - one that isn't totally alien to the standard conventions of dramatic music (which can be traced back hundreds of years through Opera), while still being 'you' and speaking to your personal history and interests.


Karl, I'm not offended at all, but I don't understand what your comments are based on. Is it your assumption that "standard" is what Spitfire was looking for in this contest? Or are you suggesting that there is some issue with the actual music that falters because it fails in some fundamental aspect. If it is the former, we just have different opinions. If it is the latter, it would be useful for me to know what fundamental aspect was lacking.


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

Iondot said:


> Karl, I'm not offended at all, but I don't understand what your comments are based on. Is it your assumption that "standard" is what Spitfire was looking for in this contest? Or are you suggesting that there is some issue with the actual music that falters because it fails in some fundamental aspect. If it is the former, we just have different opinions. If it is the latter, it would be useful for me to know what fundamental aspect was lacking.



Personally I feel it is the latter. So in a film, there are lots of times when there is no music, or when the music is only atmospheric. But for this competition, the figurative "director" is asking for music in this sequence from start to finish. Your opening atmospheric sounds don't really play _to_ the action - they don't really build and lead up to the bigger moments that are going to come. They fit for a few seconds, but then a lot of visuals change and the pacing of the clip starts to really pick up as we get into the chase. The musical texture slightly, _very_ slightly - builds up. If you're going to dial it up to 11 once the chase begins, we need to either go for shock and awe or have more of a consistent crescendo up to that moment. If we were to visualize this level of 'intensity' - in any aspect of the music, be it dynamics, rhythm, texture, whatever - we should either start building with a linear rise, or we should have a huge spike _in reaction to the visuals_ (going for a jump scare.) Your timing for this 'spike' of intensity feels way off the mark; it's very, very late. When it comes in, all these events have already happened: they've got shot at, they're scared, the car is moving to escape, Caleb begins to trip balls, the bad guys mount up, and the Dolores (the girl) resolves to 'head south'.

Only at this point do you introduce music, and you introduce it with some really loud low brass stabs in a tempo that is highly contrasting to the cinematography. The texture is very thin and with the timbre of the instruments standing on their own, it's quite obnoxious (and I say this as someone who actually plays Contrabass Trombone.) At this point you're breaking many conventions of what would normally work for a scene like this. As you probably know, the goal of music in media is to complement the visual spectacle to provide emotional context or deeper meaning to the events that are occurring. In this case, I don't feel I'm taking away the 'absurd' experience from this event. If I were a composer or director looking for something absurd in a chase sequence like this, I would probably go with a highly successful model from the past (especially as a beginner - leave radical experimentation for when you're a master). I might place something like from Pee-wee's Big Adventure by Danny Elfman (p.s. Breakfast Machine could work surprisingly well alongside this sequence.) As a composer I would then study and break down that material until I could regurgitate something similarly acceptable in my own style.

tldr, what do I think it fails on?
-hitting conventional hitpoints
-having the right pace (i've had this criticism of my own music and it's a challenge to improve upon)
-having a dense enough musical texture to be effective (most chase sequence music is busy as hell, and exceptions often resort to long atmospheric effects rather than short staccato bursts, an example of this might be to look at the film Sicario: Day of the Soldado)


----------



## BennyHendel

Mine is a pretty standard spy track, with some surprises thrown in (a bit of easy listening music). Im looking for the harshest criticism please, I know you guys can deliver


----------



## NDRU

Guess it's about time to share my take on this score with the piano roll. Now or never. Do let me know if you have any questions or comment  Enjoy!



Few more days! Isn't it exciting??


----------



## Dale Turner

Karl Feuerstake said:


> But for this competition, the figurative "director" is asking for music in this sequence from start to finish.



??????


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

Dale Turner said:


> ??????



Something unclear? :D


----------



## Dale Turner

Karl Feuerstake said:


> But for this competition, the figurative "director" is asking for music in this sequence from start to finish.





Karl Feuerstake said:


> Something unclear? :D


----------



## Iondot

Dale Turner said:


>



I've been provided with a surprising number bold statements in the scant 24 hours since I joined this forum and I'm fascinated.


----------



## CT

Welcome to VI-Control, where everyone is an expert but you.


----------



## Iondot

Mike T said:


> Welcome to VI-Control, where everyone is an expert but you.


Worth it for this reply!


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

Feeling a bit confused here, are you saying that in this 5-minute long action sequence clip, in a competition specifically about writing music, you don't think it should be scored from start to finish? I am not talking about a brief pause or moment of silence, I mean where an entire sequence is void, especially the intro (you know, the first thing the judges are going to hear.)


----------



## José Herring

She haunts me in my dreams now.


----------



## CT

Karl Feuerstake said:


> Feeling a bit confused here, are you saying that in this 5-minute long action sequence clip, in a competition specifically about writing music, you don't think it should be scored from start to finish?



It should be scored in a way that follows the dramatic architecture of what we were given. That may or may not involve wall to wall music. Without being able to collaborate with the showrunners, we have to use our best dramatic judgement. It's not just a competition about writing music, it's a scoring competition.

It didn't particularly matter to me that in mine the first thing the judges heard was almost a minute of no music instead of instant Damage loops. If they were patient enough to hear me out, great. If not, oh well.


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

Mike T said:


> It should be scored in a way that follows the dramatic architecture of what we were given. That may or may not involve wall to wall music. Without being able to collaborate with the showrunners, we have to use our best dramatic judgement. It's not just a competition about writing music, it's a scoring competition.
> 
> It didn't particularly matter to me that in mine the first thing the judges heard was almost a minute of no music instead of instant Damage loops. If they were patient enough to hear me out, great. If not, oh well.



I think.. if you want to be silent for the majority of the intro, you better have a compelling reason as to why. As a judge in a competition this big, there isn't much time to make decisions about whether this entry is worthy of being a winner or not. And hearing something upfront, during the initial actions that set up and prepare the audience for the chase, is probably going to help a lot more than hurt, just using reason alone.


----------



## CT

Yes, my compelling reason is that it felt like the most natural entry point, and I wasn't gonna slam something right onto the first frame just to keep interest going until that. Like I said, I approached it in what felt like the best way to me, and if the way I spotted it hinders my chances, so be it.


----------



## NYC Composer

For those who are starting to inject a bit of vitriol and taking a little offense at certain comments about your work, all I can say is thank you, thank you, thank you. I was getting bored by the love fest.

NOW we’re getting down to it!

Btw, there is no one correct way to score a scene. It’s completely subjective. Great writers are fired all the time (after writing full scores) and a thousand cues are sent back to a thousand composers daily for reworking because they’re “just not right.” 

If the director/producer hates it, is it wrong? If he/she loves it, is it “right”? Well, the answer from an employment sense is yes to both.
Otherwise, it’s completely subjective. There’s no one who’s worked in the industry for a while who hasn’t had great work end up in the dustbin of history.

If you’re Hans Zimmer or Charlie Clouser, you’ve developed relationships of trust over the years, and that’s great, but I’m sure both still have their moments, their rewrites. It’s the nature of the beast. You have to have confidence in your work, a thick skin and the ability to turn on a dime when required to, without snapping or complaining even when exhausted. Not always easy, but that’s sometimes what the gig entails.

Good luck to y’all.


----------



## stargazer

It would be nice to get a confirmation that somebody from the jury has listened to at least a few bars of our submissions.


----------



## Saravakos

Modular anyone?
Have listened to some work from fellow composers here - some very interesting approaches.
Here is mine using very minimal samples and mostly modular synthesis (west & east coast combined)


----------



## Eptesicus

I really hope we get a great variety in the 6 that are picked. I dont mean different for the sake of being different, but different /inventive AND really good.


----------



## jononotbono

Here’s a wicked interview about the Sound Design and music of series 3 Westworld...

https://www.asoundeffect.com/westworld-sound-music/


----------



## Dale Turner

jononotbono said:


> Here’s a wicked interview about the Sound Design and music of series 3 Westworld...
> 
> https://www.asoundeffect.com/westworld-sound-music/



AWESOME!!!!!! Read this yesterday--so great! There's even a section were Chris Kaller describes the "Genre" episode! 
====
*There’s a lot of music in this series. What were some standout moments for you this season?

CK:* In Ep.1, there was the Pulp song, “Common People,” which Jonah had scripted into the show. That was a big, featured song moment.

For me, the biggest and most challenging episode was Ep. 5 “Genre.” Caleb is injected with this drug that makes him experience different film genres. In the script, it was written that certain music was going to play in his head. That kind of music was going to guide it but we had to figure out what exactly that music would be.

I went through every iconic piece of music and tried it in all the different scenes until we figured out which ones worked best. Some of those we licensed the music and some things Ramin did. Like for the noire, Ramin used Caleb’s _Westworld_ theme but he made an old-time noire version of it. Then, we licensed the Iggy Pop song “Nightclubbing” from _Trainspotting_ and the Wagner’s “Ride of the Valkyries” from _ Apocalypse Now _. Ramin also redid classic pieces like the theme from _Love Story_ and _The Shining_‘s main title theme music. That episode was definitely a puzzle to crack.
====


----------



## CT

NYC Composer said:


> For those who are starting to inject a bit of vitriol and taking a little offense at certain comments about your work, all I can say is thank you, thank you, thank you. I was getting bored by the love fest.
> 
> NOW we’re getting down to it!
> 
> Btw, there is no one correct way to score a scene. It’s completely subjective. Great writers are fired all the time (after writing full scores) and a thousand cues are sent back to a thousand composers daily for reworking because they’re “just not right.”
> 
> If the director/producer hates it, is it wrong? If he/she loves it, is it “right”? Well, the answer from an employment sense is yes to both.
> Otherwise, it’s completely subjective. There’s no one who’s worked in the industry for a while who hasn’t had great work end up in the dustbin of history.
> 
> If you’re Hans Zimmer or Charlie Clouser, you’ve developed relationships of trust over the years, and that’s great, but I’m sure both still have their moments, their rewrites. It’s the nature of the beast. You have to have confidence in your work, a thick skin and the ability to turn on a dime when required to, without snapping or complaining even when exhausted. Not always easy, but that’s sometimes what the gig entails.
> 
> Good luck to y’all.



Right on, both about how mercurial the scoring process is in reality, and about how it takes a little bit of politeness wearing off to get to some more interesting discussion.


----------



## michalioz

Eptesicus said:


> I really hope we get a great variety in the 6 that are picked. I dont mean different for the sake of being different, but different /inventive AND really good.



Second that. I also hope epic/trailer music is not going to be one of them


----------



## José Herring

The real hard part is to remember to spell it "Melda" and not "Melba" like the toast.


----------



## Michael Stibor

I really think for a competition like this, it’s a bit of a free for all as for as your musical choices, there were no rules. I say this because for the most part as for as direction is concerned, there literally _were_ _no rules_. 

Having said that, I think the original clip with the original score is the best direction you can have. It should be used as your guide, or your blue print.

I’m not suggesting that we should be matching the tone, feel and sync points directly with the original clip, but it should give an idea of what the director asked for originally.

Not putting music for the first few seconds is one thing. Having thirty seconds go by without any music is another. Especially when that’s not what’s in the original clip. The original has slight tension right from the get go. Again, not saying it has to be copied, but it should give you an idea of what was asked, and what was required for the scene.


----------



## GingerMaestro

I heard from one of their house composers that they are looking for inventive stuff, not your bog standard Taiko Drum/pulse thing..Which makes sence..Apparently the had thousands of entries...


----------



## CT

Michael Stibor said:


> The original has slight tension right from the get go.



The raw clip felt nicely tense in the beginning without music. When you double up a gunshot with stinger music or whatever, to me, that makes the gunshots less impactful. Jesse tripping out is where it starts to shift seriously into a chase, and that sort of action momentum replaces the initial tense approach of the gunmen and them fleeing.

Wouldn't have thought this was such a radical way of looking at it.


----------



## Lex

Best of luck to everyone tomorrow! 

alex


----------



## Eptesicus

Dale Turner said:


> AWESOME!!!!!! Read this yesterday--so great! There's even a section were Chris Kaller describes the "Genre" episode!
> ====
> *There’s a lot of music in this series. What were some standout moments for you this season?
> 
> CK:* In Ep.1, there was the Pulp song, “Common People,” which Jonah had scripted into the show. That was a big, featured song moment.
> 
> For me, the biggest and most challenging episode was Ep. 5 “Genre.” Caleb is injected with this drug that makes him experience different film genres. In the script, it was written that certain music was going to play in his head. That kind of music was going to guide it but we had to figure out what exactly that music would be.
> 
> I went through every iconic piece of music and tried it in all the different scenes until we figured out which ones worked best. Some of those we licensed the music and some things Ramin did. Like for the noire, Ramin used Caleb’s _Westworld_ theme but he made an old-time noire version of it. Then, we licensed the Iggy Pop song “Nightclubbing” from _Trainspotting_ and the Wagner’s “Ride of the Valkyries” from _ Apocalypse Now _. Ramin also redid classic pieces like the theme from _Love Story_ and _The Shining_‘s main title theme music. That episode was definitely a puzzle to crack.
> ====



I know it was simple, but I loved the little eerie descending rehoboam motif.


----------



## jononotbono

Eptesicus said:


> I know it was simple, but I loved the little eerie descending rehoboam motif.



Same here. Can’t imagine anything else after hearing it the first time. Ethereal. Higher being and godlike. Futuristic. Perfect tone for the show. Ramin is such a talent.


----------



## Eptesicus

jononotbono said:


> Same here. Can’t imagine anything else after hearing it the first time. Ethereal. Higher being and godlike. Futuristic. Perfect tone for the show. Ramin is such a talent.



He certainly is. The music from the first season especially was incredible. Tracks like Dr Ford and Bicameral Mind.


----------



## jononotbono

Eptesicus said:


> He certainly is. The music from the first season especially was incredible. Tracks like Dr Ford and Bicameral Mind.



Some of the String themes he comes up with for Westworld are amazing. I’m also gonna re watch GOT soon just to listen to his writing on that.


----------



## CT

jononotbono said:


> I’m also gonna re watch GOT soon just to listen to his writing on that.



Just listen, don't bother with the watching!


----------



## Cheezus

Mike T said:


> Just listen, don't bother with the watching!


Best to mute the dialogue past Season 4.


----------



## jononotbono

Mike T said:


> Just listen, don't bother with the watching!



Nah, I like GOT. Was a slow burner for me the first watch but then I started to get into it and now I love it.


----------



## iaink

jononotbono said:


> Same here. Can’t imagine anything else after hearing it the first time. Ethereal. Higher being and godlike. Futuristic. Perfect tone for the show. Ramin is such a talent.



A descending aeolian scale without the 2nd. Doesn't sound like anything to me.


----------



## jononotbono

iaink said:


> A descending aeolian scale without the 2nd. Doesn't sound like anything to me.



And you think people listen to TV music and think about music theory? Perhaps they care about how the story makes them feel and the music is a part of that story. No matter what musical devices are used. Each to their own. Doesn't sound like anything to you. Sounds exactly like how I've previously described to me. Thanks.


----------



## olvra

iaink said:


> Doesn't sound like anything to me.


----------



## Iondot

With regard to choosing silence in competition tracks — why does anyone care what anyone else choose to do? If you want to John Cage your way through the competition and you win, congratulations! I'm truly fascinated by the need to impose individual, subjective, artistic choices on other people's work. 

As for my trailer music shared above, I've found all the commentary of interest, even where I disagree — maybe especially, because I'm fascinated by the choices people make, even when delivering their opinion. I would welcome more.


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

You guys might still be joking about this, but ... i don't think someone who places 4'33" in a film is going to get points for music


----------



## NYC Composer

I'd worry about potential copyright issues.


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

NYC Composer said:


> I'd worry about potential copyright issues.



Valid concern, considering I can't imagine too many people paying money to use it legally :D


----------



## CT

Iondot said:


> I'm truly fascinated by the need to impose individual, subjective, artistic choices on other people's work.



Well, deep down everyone wants to believe that their way is the right way (at least in the context of a competition), so that's inevitably going to show through when talking about this stuff, however hard one tries to maintain cordiality and "open mindedness."

This is where the "if you don't have anything nice to say" platitude comes in handy. I certainly have lots of opinions about the entires I've listened to. Not really much to be gained by voicing most them....


----------



## NYC Composer

Mike T said:


> Well, deep down everyone wants to believe that their way is the right way (at least in the context of a competition), so that's inevitably going to show through when talking about this stuff, however hard one tries to maintain cordiality and "open mindedness."
> 
> This is where the "if you don't have anything nice to say" platitude comes in handy. I certainly have lots of opinions about the entires I've listened to. Not really much to be gained by voicing most them....


Oh, go ahead. Why be universally liked? It’s never been my goal, which is so, so demonstrable.


----------



## Supremo

Did any of the participants get an e-mail from Spitfire? Maybe a private announcement sent to winners? Or an invitation for today's stream?


----------



## CT

NYC Composer said:


> Oh, go ahead. Why be universally liked? It’s never been my goal, which is so, so demonstrable.



I like you! Must be nice having both the sharp tongue *and* the passion for drama needed to put that to use.


----------



## NYC Composer

Ha! I find myself highly amusing, and what else matters? 😉


----------



## CT

All I know is....


----------



## Eptesicus

Supremo said:


> Did any of the participants get an e-mail from Spitfire? Maybe a private announcement sent to winners? Or an invitation for today's stream?




I would have thought they would send emails to the winners after the announcement. Wouldnt it be odd to have an official public announcement, but already have contacted the winners?


----------



## Supremo

Eptesicus said:


> I would have thought they would send emails to the winners after the announcement. Wouldnt it be odd to have an official public announcement, but already have contacted the winners?


Yes, you are right. I just thought for a moment that they might want to get in contact privately with winners just to check their identity/validity/eligibility for participation whatever, before the actual public announcement.


----------



## Iondot

Mike T said:


> Well, deep down everyone wants to believe that their way is the right way (at least in the context of a competition), so that's inevitably going to show through when talking about this stuff, however hard one tries to maintain cordiality and "open mindedness."
> 
> This is where the "if you don't have anything nice to say" platitude comes in handy. I certainly have lots of opinions about the entires I've listened to. Not really much to be gained by voicing most them....


I don't know if I agree. Thoughtful criticism is useful, especially if it includes meaningful information. There is a world of difference between helpfully noting that, for example, the horns on a track are mixed and orchestrated in a way that is too thin, vs. condescendingly describing a piece as boring without specifics. Both of these could be right or wrong opinions, but only one engenders learning.


----------



## nolotrippen

Karl Feuerstake said:


> It's a forum where _composers_ go to discuss, after all. They tend to be an arrogant breed, myself included - considering the job is a lonely one and takes immense personal willpower (and thus a pretty strong ego) to be successful.
> 
> I also hold the opinion that being a better music critic can enable a composer to write better (theoretically, more critically); and the realm of music criticsm tends to be one of fiery debate.


I am NOT arrogant, and I have the 12 fingers to prove it.


----------



## Mike Greene

For discussion related to the winning announcement, please go here:




__





Spitfire Westworld - Winner Announced!


Rather than have this discussed in three or four different threads, all of which are already on page 30 or 40, I'm creating this new thread. The winner is our very own @David Kudell! It's fun to look back to when he posted his entry here, and I gotta say, I'm happy he won. That post, and the...




vi-control.net


----------



## TheRealPeeWee

Dale Turner said:


> Wasn't their a hilarious "CHICKEN" Westworld scoring vid posted here? Or somewhere? I can't find it!!! If anyone knows what I'm referring to (unless I only imagined it??), I would love to see it again... looked everywhere and failed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe it was only a short vid uploaded on FB, and not actually on YouTube...
> 
> PS: Happy Birthday Brian Wilson!


I'm also looking for that one. It was hilarious!


----------



## Dale Turner

TheRealPeeWee said:


> I'm also looking for that one. It was hilarious!



AAAAH!!!!! Now I know I did NOT just imagine it, lol!! Thanks for the corroboration!! Hope it turns up!!


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## TheRealPeeWee

Dale Turner said:


> AAAAH!!!!! Now I know I did NOT just imagine it, lol!! Thanks for the corroboration!! Hope it turns up!!


Not crazy at all. After searching for a while, I managed to track it down! Masterpiece!


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## Dale Turner

TheRealPeeWee said:


> Not crazy at all. After searching for a while, I managed to track it down! Masterpiece!




YEEEEESSS!!! I am perpetually indebted!! Sanity restored, hahaha!!! Thank you so much for rousting this wizardy up!! Was it buried in some Facebook nuttiness??? AWESOME!!!


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## bengoss

TheRealPeeWee said:


> Not crazy at all. After searching for a while, I managed to track it down! Masterpiece!



Lol is this the real winner???


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## TheRealPeeWee

Dale Turner said:


> YEEEEESSS!!! I am perpetually indebted!! Sanity restored, hahaha!!! Thank you so much for rousting this wizardy up!! Was it buried in some Facebook nuttiness??? AWESOME!!!



Definitely! Had to go through my browsing history and find it... Luckily I remembered watching it right after uploading mine so it narrowed it down... Glad I could be of help restoring your sanity!


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## TheRealPeeWee

bengoss said:


> Lol is this the real winner???


It won my heart over, that's for sure! :D


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## Eptesicus

TheRealPeeWee said:


> Not crazy at all. After searching for a while, I managed to track it down! Masterpiece!




He dared to be different! Give him first prize! 

That is brilliant.


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## R. Soul

I didn't enter and have only listened to a few entries, but this one is worth a watch. Definitely different... and rather hilarious.


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## Dale Turner

TheRealPeeWee said:


> Definitely! Had to go through my browsing history and find it... Luckily I remembered watching it right after uploading mine so it narrowed it down... Glad I could be of help restoring your sanity!


Hahahahaha!!!! Amazing that you found it!! BURIED TREASURE!!!! Please have a magnificent weekend, PeeWee!!!! All the raddest  And thanks again!!!


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## TheRealPeeWee

Dale Turner said:


> Hahahahaha!!!! Amazing that you found it!! BURIED TREASURE!!!! Please have a magnificent weekend, PeeWee!!!! All the raddest  And thanks again!!!


Thanks, You too!!


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## davidson

Karl Feuerstake said:


> You guys might still be joking about this, but ... i don't think someone who places 4'33" in a film is going to get points for music



I heard it was used in the dark knight tunnel scene.


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## EasterIslandStatue

Haha utterly late to the party on this one - but thought I'd share my entry at this point



Never tried scoring anything before (have only just discovered the world of virtual instruments!) but I thoroughly enjoyed the whole process and for this opportunity (thanks @paulthomson !) 

I am certain that this competition will have seen a whole host of first-timers like myself enter - and all of those people now have their first bit of music on YouTube to present as part of a future show-reel demonstrating their work and abilities - who knows, maybe one day leading to a music-related career (my dream).

Shame to see that the results of the competition has been so divisive and there's been so much bickering back and forth, but I know at least for me it's been a fantastic taste of what the future may bring 

Cheers guys and happy weekend to you all!


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## bengoss

R. Soul said:


> I didn't enter and have only listened to a few entries, but this one is worth a watch. Definitely different... and rather hilarious.



Lol lol lol 😂


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## Michael Stibor

TheRealPeeWee said:


> Not crazy at all. After searching for a while, I managed to track it down! Masterpiece!



Amazing. I legitimately loved it! 

I don't see how this didn't win. For real. It hit all the sync points, it "broke the rules" just like they wanted, and was a prime example of "daring to be different". I could see Kubrick using this in his next film. You know, had he been still with us.


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## mk-oh-one

R. Soul said:


> I didn't enter and have only listened to a few entries, but this one is worth a watch. Definitely different... and rather hilarious.



Absolute star. Genius. Takes the piss quite thoroughly and yet is never offensive. In a way it's the best I've seen but would not have won (yes, even if I'd been judging). Thank you for posting. Give this person a job!


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## vitocorleone123

That song mocking the clip is pure gold.

I think the contest winner dared to be different and it caught the ears of those who mattered, who also clearly were looking for something more unique than traditional modern. But I'm just an armchair listener, not a composer, nor did I compete in any music contest.

I find the selection of the winner inspiring. You DON'T necessarily have to be the next Hans Zimmer to score. So to speak. I found his commentary on the whole thing also enlightening.


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## dcoscina

R. Soul said:


> I didn't enter and have only listened to a few entries, but this one is worth a watch. Definitely different... and rather hilarious.



This was my favourite because of how self reflexive it is. It was brilliant.


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## classified_the_x

for those who liked 8bit sounds, Glasys is the king of 8bit music. Been following him for years... do not copy him lol


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## srprose

josephspirits said:


> I think everyone is missing the real quandary here... Genre.
> 
> What stage will your piece be tripping in?


That was prophetic!!


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## jacobthestupendous

R. Soul said:


> I didn't enter and have only listened to a few entries, but this one is worth a watch. Definitely different... and rather hilarious.



After I posted my entry, I showed precisely two other entries to my family: David Kudell's and this one. "Quack" is still one of the funniest things you can say at my house nearly a month later.


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## Eptesicus

jacobthestupendous said:


> After I posted my entry, I showed precisely two other entries to my family: David Kudell's and this one. "Quack" is still one of the funniest things you can say at my house nearly a month later.



Yeh i have to admit the "quack" got me good :D


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## josephspirits

srprose said:


> That was prophetic!!



Haha well it just seemed to all be right there in the scene/episode. Thought it was a clever scene to choose for this competition.


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