# Home On The Ocean (BBC Symphony Orchestra)



## Joel Ewers (Dec 9, 2019)

Here's a short original composition I made using BBC Symphony Orchestra:




Just hoping for a bit of feedback. Let me know what sounds relatively acceptable, and what sticks out like a sore thumb. 

Thank you!


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## 2chris (Dec 9, 2019)

I am not any kind of expert on orchestral music whatsoever, so take any commnets with that understanding. I really enjoyed it though, and I'd encourage you to take it further.

At the beginning the crescendo to silence is interesting, but it's kind of of stark. You could consider doing something there? Maybe really soft harp that you used elsewhere? I really like the strings when they kick in around a minute, and how you pull the oboe and brass in out is really interesting. I would develop that area more and lengthen it out. If you played with the octaves and made a piano part that does something different but plays off of it (soft, maybe even felt?) that could be interesting.


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## gussunkri (Dec 9, 2019)

There is much to like here, but I agree about the introduction feeling slightly unfinished. Is the introduction even necessary? I really liked the main melody. Is that oboe or english horn?


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## Joel Ewers (Dec 9, 2019)

Yeah, I was fairly insecure about the opening part. Funny thing is that I never even thought to just remove it and start with the harp! It's easy to have tunnel vision when composing. But I agree that it's rather crude and distracting, so I really appreciate you guys pointing that out.

The main melody is played by oboe. I tried with a few different woodwinds but the solo oboe is what seemed to fit well. I also played around with reverb but decided to leave the track dry.


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## Zero&One (Dec 9, 2019)

Yeah great
I wouldn't necessarily removed the into, as mentioned it just needs something else. Even more room mic so there's something filling the space. I'd put some pizz or a low drone bass just after each crescendo (or harp creeping in). Just subtle, to give the feeling of the waves coming in (I assumed that's what it was with the title).


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## river angler (Dec 9, 2019)

Joel Ewers said:


> Here's a short original composition I made using BBC Symphony Orchestra:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I like the composition very much but the arrangement/production sounds way too mechanical


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## river angler (Dec 9, 2019)

...it sounds like a perfunctory mockup which is a pity as it is not doing the piece justice


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## NoamL (Dec 9, 2019)

The intro & main part don't seem related, which is a shame as I'd've liked to hear you continue to develop the initial idea.

Other than that you have a reasonable sense of harmony & orchestral scope... keep writing, keep trying stuff! And add a little reverb or rear mics


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## river angler (Dec 9, 2019)

I actually agree with some of the comments of others here in that the production sounds rather stark.
However I actually like the introduction! Just think the chords sound too clean- I think I can see you deliberately cut the ambience off the release of the notes for effect but I actually think it would sound better with some reverb depicting the space of the sea- open water close to ones heart etc (for example) otherwise it lends an artificial vibe to it not in a good way.

Generally throughout the piece as I said be careful not to fall into what I call "perfect plugin mode" where you allow the samples you are using to dictate the style of production: better to think wholeheartedly about what's best for the composition you have written rather than think: "what aspects of BBCSO can I use to embellish my piece?"

Let the composition and its intended message steer you in the right direction regarding arrangement and production rather than the tools in front of you governing those decisions. Its an old trap with any of these libraries!

Focus on the descriptive title of your piece! "Home On The Ocean" - think visually and you will approach the arrangement from your own musical mind rather than the softwares mechanical nature!


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## river angler (Dec 9, 2019)

Joel Ewers said:


> .... I also played around with reverb but decided to leave the track dry.



My point exactly!.... If you think more about the title, mood and message of the piece you've trying to convey, what you have in your minds eye, you will be much more decisive! ..."decided to leave the track dry"... What has leaving the reverb on or off got to do with "Home on the ocean"? Your'e looking at the process of production the wrong way round! IMO !


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## river angler (Dec 9, 2019)

...If you focus on whats best going to carry the message/imagery of your composition to the listener you will then ask the software "to get in line accordingly" because I want my ocean to breathe and bring me home to it's majesty (for example). 

I'm not in your head of course so know not what imagery you are thinking of although what I have heard so far is encouraging me to use the metaphors I am! 

What I'm getting at is the way you approach using the tools in front of you is paramount to doing what's best for the composition.

It's a subtle and sometimes tricky concept to describe but nevertheless an important one to make the best of any decent composition.


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## Scamper (Dec 9, 2019)

Nice one. While the beginning might not quite fit the rest of the piece, I still really like the idea, which could be a great fit in another context.



2chris said:


> At the beginning the crescendo to silence is interesting, but it's kind of of stark.



What could also work for the total silence between the swells is some room noise, which you could just put under the whole piece. I think it will glue together these parts by keeping some sort of sound going instead of having pure silence.


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## 2chris (Dec 9, 2019)

Joel Ewers said:


> Yeah, I was fairly insecure about the opening part. Funny thing is that I never even thought to just remove it and start with the harp! It's easy to have tunnel vision when composing. But I agree that it's rather crude and distracting, so I really appreciate you guys pointing that out.
> 
> The main melody is played by oboe. I tried with a few different woodwinds but the solo oboe is what seemed to fit well. I also played around with reverb but decided to leave the track dry.


I guessed right. Generally I'm not a big fan of Oboe, but you mixed it in nicely - and it really fits well. I'm not saying gut the intro, though you could try it, I meant that you could add things like harp on the tail or do something really subtle. Play with reverb? Layer brass or some other element? When you cut all the dynamics out of the samples and leave no reverb tail, while interesting, it reminded me you are using samples. Whereas, at 1 minute it's so rich I feel like it's an orchestra.

Don't feel insecure about the intro, doing something different is a good thing. These are just my thoughts, and I think the work is great and I hope you keep working on it to make something like a 6 to 10 minute type piece where you play with the main themes you've created and pull the layers in and out. You have really good main ideas here that you could extend.


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## river angler (Dec 9, 2019)

2chris said:


> Don't feel insecure about the intro, doing something different is a good thing. These are just my thoughts, and I think the work is great and I hope you keep working on it to make something like a 6 to 10 minute type piece where you play with the main themes you've created and pull the layers in and out. You have really good main ideas here that you could extend.



I agree! I like the opening chords- I also think the chosen intro style is not distracting from the title of this piece. Certainly on first listen it kept my attention! There are indeed some interesting phrases and themes in this piece which could evolve. However I'm not referring to the production! I'm taking about the music itself. I too encourage you to go on this journey to the pieces natural conclusion which, if you concentrate on conducting with your baton rather than reacting subserviently to the plugin instruments you could go far with this!


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## purple (Dec 9, 2019)

I think the solution to the intro would be to make the last note they play in each of those figures some sort of staccato or whatever the nomenclature for short notes is in BBCSO. That way it decays more naturally and enhances the effect you seem to be after. I think the cymbal could be louder around that middle bit and have the orchestra grow into it more. Maybe I'd add some tasteful timpani or bass drum in certain areas to help with that. The only other thing that stood out to me was the jumpy legato transitions, but that's not your fault nor is it something you can really do much about besides getting a library that does legato better.


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## Joel Ewers (Dec 9, 2019)

Man, all of this feedback is invaluable! Thank you guys so much. A lot of things to think about. Finding ways to "de-mechanize" the sound is something I need to focus on.

I think my main reason for leaving out reverb is that the built in reverb of BBCSO didn't sound too great, at least for this particular track. I was hearing more of a "slapback" delay/reverb rather than a nice, smooth reverb. It could be that I was simply using too much, or it just didn't fit right with the combination of mics I was using (Mix 2 + full spill). Either way, I will go back in and play around to see if I can make it sound right.

On that note, is there a good dedicated reverb plugin you guys could recommend?

I'm looking forward to making some changes to this piece to really bring it alive. As far as those moments of complete silence, I think I envisioned a soft sound of frothy waves in the background, but ultimately left that out because I thought it might be too cheesy. Something I've been doing (since purchasing BBCSO) is trying to adhere strictly to the size and distribution of the orchestra, mainly to train myself to use only what's there. But sometimes a piece requires 8 clarinets or double the strings, you know? I have to remind myself that there really aren't any rules; the point is to create compelling musical emotion.

I thank you again for the advice and encouragement!


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## Joel Ewers (Dec 9, 2019)

purple said:


> I think the solution to the intro would be to make the last note they play in each of those figures some sort of staccato or whatever the nomenclature for short notes is in BBCSO. That way it decays more naturally and enhances the effect you seem to be after. I think the cymbal could be louder around that middle bit and have the orchestra grow into it more. Maybe I'd add some tasteful timpani or bass drum in certain areas to help with that. The only other thing that stood out to me was the jumpy legato transitions, but that's not your fault nor is it something you can really do much about besides getting a library that does legato better.



Thanks, using staccato there is a good idea. Yeah, not much I can do on the legato transitions, there's only so much realism to expect from a sub-$1,000 library. There's work to be done in the scripting. But overall I am happy with the sound when it all comes together the right way.

In you experience, which libraries have the best realism and legato transitions?


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## river angler (Dec 9, 2019)

Joel Ewers said:


> In you experience, which libraries have the best realism and legato transitions?



Orchestral Tools, even in their Berlin Orchestra Inspire Series


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## Joel Ewers (Dec 9, 2019)

river angler said:


> I agree! I like the opening chords- I also think the chosen intro style is not distracting from the title of this piece. Certainly on first listen it kept my attention! There are indeed some interesting phrases and themes in this piece which could evolve. However I'm not referring to the production! I'm taking about the music itself. I too encourage you to go on this journey to the pieces natural conclusion which, if you concentrate on conducting with your baton rather than reacting subserviently to the plugin instruments you could go far with this!



Just want to say thank you for taking time out of your day to share your thoughts and advice. I find it very encouraging and I'm grateful to hear from someone with experience.


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## river angler (Dec 9, 2019)

You're very welcome young man!

I don't often listen to compositions here but I was pleasantly surprised to bend my ear to yours!

The trouble with the sophistication of sample instruments now is they generally veil a composers true ability (or lack of it!). On the rare occasion when I'm seeking out a specific VST and listen back to demos of it, 99 times out of 100 they are either compositionally generic or they are crowded with over grandiose production swamped with the latest library sounds. In the action movie world Heavyocity's DAMAGE must be the most overused bombastic percussion hybrid library! That's another negative nod towards all these libraries: one can be vulnerable to using sounds that everyone has heard ad infinitum! However the true culprit to such practices is the lack of quality base musical content in the compositions themselves.


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## purple (Dec 9, 2019)

Joel Ewers said:


> Thanks, using staccato there is a good idea. Yeah, not much I can do on the legato transitions, there's only so much realism to expect from a sub-$1,000 library. There's work to be done in the scripting. But overall I am happy with the sound when it all comes together the right way.
> 
> In you experience, which libraries have the best realism and legato transitions?


Cinematic studio series for legato. Some of the CSS demos I heard made me worry for my string-playing friends. CSB is also really good. By far my favorite horn sound and unparalleled legato. You can get both pretty cheap due to the loyalty discount that applies to the second purchase with them.


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## ProfoundSilence (Dec 9, 2019)

The instrument volumes are kind of all over the place. 

Woodwinds are a bit too loud, and much too close. The complete lack of ambience tends to make it feel un-natural, more than just dry. And that harp is blistering as well - just drop the volume of the harp to a natural level, (as well as the woodwinds volumes being reduced a little as well) then your soft part can be soft. You'll probably have to drop the CC1 a little on the woodwinds during that section to not bury the harp, but it'll have more emotional impact when you come in heavy with the strings after that section. 

It's all about contrast! And composition wise it has the right contrast, but your mix tells a different story! Love the general emotions here, and voicings.


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## Dr.Quest (Dec 9, 2019)

I like it! The silence between notes at the beginning is great. So many people are afraid of silence. I think adding ambience would help a lot, it is too dry. And a better balance of the instruments in this setting would go a long way but I like the composition. BBCSO sounds very good here. Nice.


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## Joel Ewers (Dec 10, 2019)

river angler said:


> You're very welcome young man!
> 
> I don't often listen to compositions here but I was pleasantly surprised to bend my ear to yours!
> 
> The trouble with the sophistication of sample instruments now is they generally veil a composers true ability (or lack of it!). On the rare occasion when I'm seeking out a specific VST and listen back to demos of it, 99 times out of 100 they are either compositionally generic or they are crowded with over grandiose production swamped with the latest library sounds. In the action movie world Heavyocity's DAMAGE must be the most overused bombastic percussion hybrid library! That's another negative nod towards all these libraries: one can be vulnerable to using sounds that everyone has heard ad infinitum! However the true culprit to such practices is the lack of quality base musical content in the compositions themselves.



You make some great points. It's easy to be fenced in by the limitations of VI libraries, while also feeling swamped by the vast amount of options. The creations that come out of that kind of situation are often unnatural, forced, and watered down. Anyways, I'm definitely digging BBCSO but I do see myself using it more as a compliment to other instruments, and vice versa. So I'm going to work some other sounds into this composition and see where it goes.


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