# Orchestration Recipes Discussion Thread



## PhilipJohnston

*Launch sale: 40% off*
Get your recipes at *orchestrationrecipes.com*

*2 hours of fully narrated videos*
Walkthroughs, illustrations and loads of fresh musical examples to explore, in a new, brisk, fully narrated format.

*Packed with orchestrated examples & ideas to try*
Start with the videos. Practice building versions of your own, until you don’t _need_ the videos. Then the sound is yours, to summon, whenever you need it.

*Your sample libraries are fine*
VSL, Spitfire, EastWest, OrchestralTools, Cinesamples, Samplemodelling, Cinematic Studio Series...it doesn't matter. The whole point of recipes is that they work with whatever you've got.

*Questions?*
Email Philip Johnston


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## South Thames

Well, your initial burst about the questionable impulse to load up on samples libraries had me nodding vigorously in agreement .

On the idea of orchestration recipes... It seems to me probably a decent enough pedagogic tool, like products that I've seen where you can buy a whole bunch of MIDI chord progressions off the shelf - eg. a good way to get started if you have limited musical knowledge and resources. Beyond that point, once you have a certain amount of confidence, it's difficult for me to imagine needing to reach for these, as with the chord progressions example.

Also, the examples are, well... very conservative. This forum is obviously mainly composers writing for or looking to write for media (where, for better or worse, a solo woodwind line is typically about as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit these days), and I think the templates are poorly oriented to this market. They sound like examples for learning in a conservatory environment. But obviously that's a comment about particular templates, not the idea itself.

But I think to really sell people on the idea, the templates showcasing the concept need to be more compelling and useful seeming.


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## el-bo

What a great learning tool! And so well-presented. Perfect for a newb, such as myself 

Edit: Have you considered perhaps offering one complete recipe as a freebie/demo? It needn't be one from the upcoming pack. Just something as a proof-of-concept, to see if the workflow 'clicks'. Just an idea.


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## Kevinside

There is one point in orchestration... It starts in your head and then you are aiming the conclusion of your imagination. Sure, Sample Libraries could bring you to the point, where you say... Thats it...
But the truth is, that you arrange your tracks to get the best, the real result like an orchester...
Today the possibilities are breathtaking... I think, there is today a library for every specific use...
VSL,SFA,OT,PS... and more and more...

And its amazing to work with all these libraries...
But I personally start with a piano and a piece of paper and a pencil... If you only compose for a specific library, cause in this case, it sounds real and wonderful and more... you are doing it, cause of the library, you are using...

And i say no, really no... Cause when i write down my composition on paper...there is it... What i do on the computer with all this virtual orchestras is another thing, but this little composition on paper is more worth, than any super duper excessiv sampling library out there...
And you know what... I like to orchestrate with all the great sample libraries out there... but if its important, i give the notes to every player of a real orchester...And at last what can be more "REAL". than a real orchester with 1 2 Violins,Violas,Celli,Basses...the whole set of brass and woodwinds and percussion...
I know, such sessions are very expensive, but if the budget of a TV,Film and more is there...No regret to use the real deal...

But I love Sample Libraries and i am consumer of all the great orchestral instruments recordings...

To have it at home as a guide for the next steps in production is wonderful....
but remember if you are composing... and being a slave of a library... thats not the goal, i think...

End of communication 

PS: This my personal opinion and does not reflect any other...Please no offence, cause of my personal thoughts; thanks


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## Sulblk

PhilipJohnston said:


> I’m launching this as an idea to share, as much as a product:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The collection itself will be available in November, but it’s almost not the point:
> 
> *I want other composers to create their own recipes too, and then to make them available* (independent of me or my website is fine!).
> 
> If the Orchestration Recipe concept seems useful, share the video, get other composers fired up about releasing their own collections, so we can all have them as desk references as we compose. (I'm serious...I want my shelves _filled_ with these things, it would be a game changer for getting the most out of the sample libraries I already have).
> 
> Let me know what you think...who else would love to have hundreds of these to hand, in a concise, browsable format?



THANK You for this!


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## Eric G

PhilipJohnston said:


> I’m launching this as an idea to share, as much as a product:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The collection itself will be available in November, but it’s almost not the point:
> 
> *I want other composers to create their own recipes too, and then to make them available* (independent of me or my website is fine!).
> 
> If the Orchestration Recipe concept seems useful, share the video, get other composers fired up about releasing their own collections, so we can all have them as desk references as we compose. (I'm serious...I want my shelves _filled_ with these things, it would be a game changer for getting the most out of the sample libraries I already have).
> 
> Let me know what you think...who else would love to have hundreds of these to hand, from dozens of very different composers, in a concise, browsable format?




Brilliant. I have a prosonal project where I am doing exactly this but for the Giacchino, Williams and Powell "sound". I am in.

Consider them bought and now I have a great standard to conform to. Please make a template (text, midi etc available as a basic standard to follow)


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## Marko Zirkovich

This is awesome. Great presentation style - aesthetically pleasing and concise and to the point. I am really curious to see the supporting text material as well. I'll definitely get the initial package and do hope that lots of recipes for various styles, moods, composers etc. will follow.


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## gst98

This is such a great idea, can't wait for the release.


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## Yogevs

Nice. Subscribed.


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## Markrs

PhilipJohnston said:


> I’m launching this as an idea to share, as much as a product:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The collection itself will be available in November, but it’s almost not the point:
> 
> *I want other composers to create their own recipes too, and then to make them available* (independent of me or my website is fine!).
> 
> If the Orchestration Recipe concept seems useful, share the video, get other composers fired up about releasing their own collections, so we can all have them as desk references as we compose. (I'm serious...I want my shelves _filled_ with these things, it would be a game changer for getting the most out of the sample libraries I already have).
> 
> Let me know what you think...who else would love to have hundreds of these to hand, from dozens of very different composers, in a concise, browsable format?



Love this concept and I think the analogy works well. I like the idea that as with recipes you start with following and then learn to adapt it as you know how to make it. This means you can start tailoring things to your tastes or to what you are trying to achieve.


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## Rich4747

Fantastic Idea and presentation. Looking forward to showcasing this concept on my channel. This is the missing link. VSL call a board meeting this concept is too good.


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## Paul Jelfs

Brilliant idea - love the format, and the little videos demonstrating the concepts. Bravo. 

I think each recipe should get a name rather than a number (I watched a couple of examples and could not see any, apologies if its just me on a Sunday) 

Like "Creeping Terror" or " Epic Lava Battle " etc (But with better names that describes the recipe than my attempts ! )


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## killbreth

Really great concept and well executed!


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## ArthurNeeman

Thank you very much for this post. I totally agree about a concept.
Running for new and huge libraries is not worth our time. Better to cook a cookie with tools we have, know and trust!
P.S. I tried to replicate your example (at 3:57 in your video) with Sonuscore The Orchestra only and after adding a little multiband compression it surprisingly sounds the same good.


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## BlueLight675

OMG This is a brilliant idea. I am SO in. I'll get to work making a bunch of these with examples. Thanks for this concept, I think this will help everyone, including those who make these recipes.


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## NoamL

if you want to approach this with the rigor of a Hollywood orchestrator, I think you need to think about articulations, as you've done, but also about 2 concepts that seriously affect sound: dynamics and register. This is especially important for woodwinds that sound different in different registers, and the registers affect what dynamics they can play.

I'll throw this in here for you. Happy to see you use it however you like. In your chef metaphor, think of this chart as a reduced sauce... it is based on numerous interviews with members of the Seattle Symphony, musicians online, and condensing down the same concepts tackled in various orchestration books. There is not always agreement among authors which is why these are more "crossfades" than perfectly segmented registers.


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## SlHarder

I am intrigued by this. This is an excellent take from a unique perspective.

It's early days for me and music as a hobbyist. 

The "recipe" approach fits my learning style where "ideas are hooks in your mind that you hang ideas on which become hooks to hang ideas on ...".


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## BlackDorito

Great idea, I hope it stimulates lots of activity. I remember proposing something similar a few years back but not as fully developed as you have. I would recommend that those people producing recipes, or any user in fact, share lots of examples because sometimes we are drawn to a particular texture or structure precisely because of the actual harmonic or thematic material used. Also check out the orchestration exercises posted here from time to time like the “10 Examples” thread by Mattia Chiappa.


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## rudi

Excellent idea and very well executed (nice sound quality, clear, sharp graphics).
It is almost like a mini conservatory orchestration course: practial learning about pairings, sound combinations, ranges, foreground and background material. It looks very promising. 
Looking forward to the release (and future ones).


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## mussnig

This is really great! It's feels to me like I've been looking for something like this without even knowing. Especially, I sometimes find it tedious to study scores and find myself overwhelmed and not able to filter out the essentials. I am really looking forward to the (first) release.

Also, good point about buying new libs!


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## Ashermusic

PhilipJohnston said:


> I’m launching this as an idea to share, as much as a product:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The collection itself will be available in November, but it’s almost not the point:
> 
> *I want other composers to create their own recipes too, and then to make them available* (independent of me or my website is fine!).
> 
> If the Orchestration Recipe concept seems useful, share the video, get other composers fired up about releasing their own collections, so we can all have them as desk references as we compose. (I'm serious...I want my shelves _filled_ with these things, it would be a game changer for getting the most out of the sample libraries I already have).
> 
> Let me know what you think...who else would love to have hundreds of these to hand, from dozens of very different composers, in a concise, browsable format?




I....LOVE.....THIS!


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## Kevperry777

Love it. I am in. 

Makes me think of of Mike Verta’s “presets” class that was really helpful to me...seeing how different ingredients work together is great learning.

Wonderful idea and resource!


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## pbobcat

As someone who's just been doing this a few months, this is very useful!


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## SlHarder

Phillip

Fyi, the first link on your website "what is an orchestrationrecipe" is dead, at least for me, says removed by uploader.


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## Uiroo

I love it!
I want to have an additional category for quick snacks, like: "Tubular Bells with Glockenspiel an octave above and Piano an octave below, yummy!"


One caveat, however: While I think this is really useful and I'm approaching learning orchestration this way at the moment, I think one should now that good orchestration is not just the application of good recipes. It is ALSO that, but there's also the aspect of thinking first principles. Understanding why certain instrument doublings sound nice to our ears, why other don't etc.

I think what Jim Keller says in this clip can be applied to orchestration (or composing in general) quite nicely:


I should add that I'm pretty much a beginner when it comes to orchestration, but I think what I say makes sense


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## YaniDee

This won't be good for "The Orchestra Complete 2" sales..


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## Beans

This is really cool! Even if it's not something I "need," I'm always happy to hand over a little money for someone taking a good base idea and evolving it further than others have. Looking forward to it!


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## markit

This is great a great initiative! I can’t wait to save the recipes as perform patches in Divisimate. I’m looking forward to the release!


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## ALittleNightMusic

Love this. Love the video as well - especially the first part, should be required viewing for Vi-C members.

Also, I hope you continue to release these volumes - not sure others would be able to do it as well or as detailed as you seem to have done. Maybe even recipe books based on certain composer's styles (John Williams recipes, Beethoven recipes, etc).


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## Daidy

Great idea ! It's an excellent way of learning orchestration.
Recipes for theme development would also be useful to me.


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## NekujaK

Brilliant - count me as a customer! Other styles of music have recipes, in fact, some are quite rigid and extremely specific, so why not orchestral/classical/cinematic music.

Recently (last 1-2 years), I've noticed there are some really great tools becoming available that are aimed at streamlining and assisting the composition/orchestration process in the digital realm. This is one of the more well-thought-out and presented approaches. Bravo!


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## Eric G

NoamL said:


> if you want to approach this with the rigor of a Hollywood orchestrator, I think you need to think about articulations, as you've done, but also about 2 concepts that seriously affect sound: dynamics and register. This is especially important for woodwinds that sound different in different registers, and the registers affect what dynamics they can play.
> 
> I'll throw this in here for you. Happy to see you use it however you like. In your chef metaphor, think of this chart as a reduced sauce... it is based on numerous interviews with members of the Seattle Symphony, musicians online, and condensing down the same concepts tackled in various orchestration books. There is not always agreement among authors which is why these are more "crossfades" than perfectly segmented registers.


Looks like the Spectratone Chart. Are combinations (close, complementary) of timbre represented for other sections and instrument combinations? Cello and Bassoons for example?


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## NoamL

Eric G said:


> Looks like the Spectratone Chart. Are combinations (close, complementary) of timbre represented for other sections and instrument combinations? Cello and Bassoons for example?



ah, to clarify, the colors are just arbitrary, they don't really mean compatible ranges for blending. The chart is only about how the timbre of each instrument changes in different parts of its register, it doesn't give advice for combinations.

And yes, other authors have done stuff like this, and some instruments like the clarinet have very sharply defined registers because the instrument works in different ways on the higher and lower register.


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## jadedsean

NoamL said:


> ah, to clarify, the colors are just arbitrary, they don't really mean compatible ranges for blending. The chart is only about how the timbre of each instrument changes in different parts of its register, it doesn't give advice for combinations.
> 
> And yes, other authors have done stuff like this, and some instruments like the clarinet have very sharply defined registers because the instrument works in different ways on the higher and lower register.


Noam do you have this chart for the a full orchestra? This could be quite useful.


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## Hywel

I am thrilled by this and I agree with everyone it is a fantastic idea. Can I make a further suggestion that "recipes" can be grouped or sequenced together to make up a full "menu" for the diners.
What I mean here is for example Recipe 61A "Slow Intro" > transitions to Recipe 33D "Sweet Strings" > transitions to Recipe 64B "Full On Tutti Finale"


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## Living Fossil

PhilipJohnston said:


> Let me know what you think...who else would love to have hundreds of these to hand, from dozens of very different composers, in a concise, browsable format?



First of all, those who know me a bit longer in this forum know my opinion about shortcuts in learning, so i will restrain myself a bit. (of course not without repeating once more that beyond the very basics instrumentation is much more about the ability to write appropriate textures for the respective function of the specific instruments). – i also think that the outcome of your project may be helpful/inspirational for some.

However, i think it's necessary to point out, that your very first example – The Esterházy – is a bit flawed without further additions.
The problem lies within the instrument of the Oboe.
Nowadays, almost every orchestra outside of Vienna uses the french oboe, while the music of the Viennese classic used the Viennese oboe.
To people with some sensible ears the difference between those instruments is quite big.
The french (or "usual") oboe has a much stronger formant in the sensible "a" area and therefore cuts extremely well through an arrangement.
On the downside, the sound of the oboe gets fatiguing quite soon.
(if you check scores by good orchestrators you will see that they all pay attention to this. Or the other way round: you can often spot the not-so-good orchestrator by the overuse of the oboe).

Now, the composers of the viennese classic very clearly had the sound of the viennese oboe in mind, which is much more decent in context. If you're familiar with that sound you will understand that this typical instrumentation does indeed not rely on the "oboe" but on the "viennese oboe".

Finally, since you're aiming at composers with virtual instruments, let me add that there is in fact a viennese oboe available as a sampled instrument.
It's part of the fantastic VSL woodwinds.

Besides that, i wish you a lot of success with your upcoming channel!


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## Rich4747

By far the biggest new market for sample producers is the recreational composer who creates and learns for the joy of it. imo


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## Beans

Rich4747 said:


> By far the biggest new market for sample producers is the recreational composer who creates and learns for the joy of it.



Is this true?



Rich4747 said:


> imo



Oh... never mind.

EDIT: With that said, I spend _way_ more as a hobbyist now than when I was working, because I'm no longer tying my purchasing decisions to whether or not I can use them in a project. My needs were pretty limited (as are my skills), and I spent a lot of time wading in stale water as a result. Now, I'm like the grandparent who has a piano in their house because they like to force the family to gather around and sing songs together during the holidays. I won't make money off of it, but it brings me joy.


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## el-bo

Living Fossil said:


> First of all, those who know me a bit longer in this forum know my opinion about shortcuts in learning...



One man's "shortcuts in" is another man's "adjunct to"


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## Living Fossil

el-bo said:


> One man's "shortcuts in" is another man's "adjunct to"



Of course. 
If you had read past the first sentence of my post, you also would have seen the following sentence:



> "– i also think that the outcome of your project may be helpful/inspirational for some."






p.s. however, my post was about the difference between the "normal" french oboe and the viennese one and why it could matter if one tries to imitate the instrumentation of the viennese classic.
(i know, reading a long post isn't attractive...  )


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## el-bo

Living Fossil said:


> (i know, reading a long post isn't attractive...  )



Attractive or not, i read every word 





Living Fossil said:


> Of course.
> If you had read past the first sentence of my post, you also would have seen the following sentence:
> 
> *"– i also think that the outcome of your project may be helpful/inspirational for some."*



I did read past the first sentence. I had no quarrel with anything else you said, so I didn't address any of it.

If you believe what you wrote, as the follow-up, then doesn't that negate the sentiment of your opening line? Helpful and inspirational is great, right?

I just thought your opener was unnecessary, save for the 'othering'.




Living Fossil said:


> p.s. however, my post was about the difference between the "normal" french oboe and the viennese one and why it could matter if one tries to imitate the instrumentation of the viennese classic.



Despite lacking the knowledge to give your comment a context, I could see that it would helpful information for others. But your initial comment did sully it, somewhat.


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## ReleaseCandidate

Living Fossil said:


> The problem lies within the instrument of the Oboe.
> Nowadays, almost every orchestra outside of Vienna uses the french oboe, while the music of the Viennese classic used the Viennese oboe.



Well, neither the viennese nor the french oboe (~1890) but the 'german oboe' was used at that time in austria, but the viennese is certainly more similar than the french one (in german, certainly exist english pages about it) http://www.wieneroboe.at/Die_Wiener_Oboe.html
Actually the oboe isn't the only instrument that changed significally since (at) the start of the 19th century, everything had to play louder than before https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Violin/History

But historically informed performance (HIP) is another topic (you could start reading Harnoncourt, to stay in Austria).


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## Gene Pool

The first World War was caused by the relevant parties inability to agree on whose oboe everyone should use—each side shaping its trenches according to the inside taper of their preferred national oboe. When the American soldiers were told the real reason and that it had nothing to do with the assassination of the archduke, they began to ask, "Well then WTF are _we_ doing here?" But when they were told they had been sent at the behest of Marcel Tabuteau, they girded their lions and fought bravely.


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## Living Fossil

@ReleaseCandidate : Thanks for adding that link (i'm quite familiar with that site), my point was to point out that the way the oboe is used in the viennese classic isn't really suitable when executed on the french instrument. In my opinion – or rather: in my ears – the difference is huge.


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## Living Fossil

el-bo said:


> If you believe what you wrote, as the follow-up, then doesn't that negate the sentiment of your opening line? Helpful and inspirational is great, right?



I think the ambiguity is there:
If one sees it as an adjunction – as you described it - it's great.

If one sees it as a replacement for more serious studies, not that much.

So, it's in fact what the user does with the given information that decides about its value.


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## Drumdude2112

I don't see this as a 'replacement' or 'shortcut' to more formal studies in orchestration (or 4 part writing, or counterpoint for that matter) but it does look like a great way to learn some good techniques and 'vocabulary' 
I thinks it's brilliantly presented ...just a lovely idea .I'm excited , count me IN 👍🏻


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## JohnG

or buy a few scores?

I am all for any kind of learning, so hope this opens some doors to new ways of writing. Some people learn in one way, some another.


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## WaltM

I just checked out a few of the videos ... I really like the concept and presentation. Looking forward to this being available in November!


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## el-bo

Living Fossil said:


> I think the ambiguity is there:
> If one sees it as an adjunction – as you described it - it's great.
> 
> If one sees it as a replacement for more serious studies, not that much.



Unless I am mistaken, these are 'recipes' for sound-palettes/styles, with example motifs, rhythms etc. rather than shortcuts for composition. So some amount of study will still be necessary. Of course, that's where 'Scaler' steps in, amirite?


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## Living Fossil

el-bo said:


> Unless I am mistaken, these are 'recipes' for sound-palettes/styles rather than shortcuts for composition. So some amount of study will still be necessary. Of course, that's where 'Scaler' steps in, amirite?



Exactly. As i (also) mentioned in the first post: beyond the very basics instrumentation is not only which instruments play together, but also _what_ they play.
As you can see in the following (random) page from Elektra.


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## NekujaK

The way I see it, using these recipes in an orchestral context is merely the tip of the iceberg. Imagine the example recipe from the intro video arranged in a heavy metal context 🎸or with a string quartet :emoji_violin:

Having a suggested framework as a starting point leaves many creative possibilities for instrumentation as well as harmonic and melodic composition. Can't wait!


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## colony nofi

Oh @PhilipJohnston this is kinda interesting and brilliant and terrible and horrible and amazing and...

All the emotionals.

I've been lucky to play with some folk in the tech world... interrogating tech ideas thru creativity. This kinda reminds me of that.

It reminds me of some of the research being done in creating music making AI software. Here's a recipe, change parts of said recipe - and what happens? Or feed that recipe in multiple times and listen to the differences. Or....

Indeed - some of the research being done (non commercial for the moment but still under wraps) follows a VERY very close approach to yours.

And its cool. And it works VERY VERY well. Especially if you get a skilled orchestrator changing the parts a little afterwards (especially for expression - although thats completely solvable in the long term with enough will power / time / investment)

Your approach seems awesome in learning how to learn various types of orchestral writing. And like jazz licks you learn at uni, they seem a little - er - restrictive (is that the right word?). Ok not restrictive. Its like one half the puzzle. Its a bit like wood shedding. You need to learn all the various tricks BUT you need the creative wisdom to know when and why to use them - and use them without even knowing thats what you are doing.... being in the moment... responding to the emotion the sound the energy.

Some of what you are doing feels like it takes out the emotion. The artistic intent. Or at least it doesn't teach that. Sure - you can respond to what you've learnt / listened to - or in the case of your idea - the output of using a recipe - but this seems just to tick one box. I guess that's kinda the point, but also part of my trepidation. It just creates more music without much intent... or without the framework to learn how to capture creative emotion/intent... to turn an audiences feeling on a dime...

But of course, it doesn't make it unuseful. Its very useful. 

I think what I'm trying to say is your idea is actually just another orchestral library. I know its not - but hear me out. Its kinda doing exactly the same thing. Its providing another new framework to create within. One is a framework of a bunch of sounds. You're offering a framework for a bunch of expressions using those sounds. I can see people getting stuck in the same loop - buying new libraries / buying new recipes. Hm. But it could be brilliant. I do love some of the music education aspects. 

It seems to me to be an excellent way to go and write an album of production music very very quickly. (Production music is a dying form unfortunately - imo only - but given the multi-million investments going on to algorithmically create it...) Or its also a good way to learn a bunch of different orchestration ideas quite quickly and easily. I cant help but think if learning them though through ear training and being able to identify them just listening to 15 secs of music isn't a much better way of training a composer. Actually, thats it. Thats my whole point that's finally come out in this ramble. It feels like this is short circuiting some of the things that we really need as composers - some key skills. And like any short circuit, you'll be left with limitations later on if you don't develop the other skill (much harder slog) at some point in time. 

This is not a blanket statement though. Far from it. I'm wrong on so many levels. So many exceptions to the rule. I could indeed be completely wrong.

And I'm looking forward to this / seeing what people do.

I think (!?!) I prefer to listen to something... figure out quickly whats going on ... take something from that, mix it with other things I know. Write a bit more of ME into it. Maybe.


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## robcs

Sticking with tech, it reminds me of the idea of Patterns in programming. A few years back (and for all I know it may still be the case - I left the world of tech a long time ago!), there was a trend for books and, eventually, products based on the idea of "patterns": take a task that needs to be done over and over again and create a "recipe" that tells a programmer how to code it in whatever language or environment they choose without having to reinvent the wheel. It was a huge timesaver and probably also allowed a lot of people to get into coding without the traditional steep learning curve.

For my part, I'm looking forward to checking out your 'recipe book' as soon as it's ready.

Now, combine your recipes with Brant's ideas on sound families - you could substitute something in your recipe for another voice from the same family or swap it into a completely different family for a new sound - and you've got something that's very powerful.

It's very like a fun challenge the guys at Evenant set their users a few weeks ago: take a cue, dissect it to figure out the component parts and how it was built, then create something completely new using the same "recipe".


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## PhilipJohnston

Hello everyone, really excited to see the feedback and suggestions 

I'll take some time in the next week to respond to some of these posts more directly, but wanted to take a moment to clarify what this project is, and what it isn't.

As a composer, there are two reasons I would reach for a recipe:

_(1) To get me excited about things I could create,_

and

_(2) To give me just enough help so that I can actually create those things._

Think about cookbooks for a moment, you'll see they tick both those boxes. They let you window shop for options, and then give bare-bones instructions to create whatever you settle on. It's a potent combination—the window shopping _motivates_, and then the instructions _enable_—and the reason cookbooks are popular.

That said, while I've never been into Michelin-3-star restaurant kitchen, I'm betting there are no recipe books in there. But nor would a recipe author expect to find their work there. This is because cookbook recipes—and Orchestration Recipes—do _not_ claim a 3rd benefit:

_(3) Make the user a master of the Art_

There are already countless traditional orchestration resources dedicated to that. Think Samuel Adler. Rimsky Korsakov. Peter Alexander. Blatter. Piston. Books like these are essential, and inspired this series, but perhaps not in the way the authors may have hoped. After reading Adler from cover to cover, I could tell you all about the history of the development of crooks and valves on trumpets, the range of contrabassoons, and how to notate nonpitching instruments with pitch variation. But I emerged entirely unable to answer my most fundamental question—the question that mocks me every time I load up my DAW, as my virtual instrumentalists stare back at me, obedient, silent, expectant:

_Now what???_

Now what, indeed. That's where recipes come in. They provide a compendium of examples of _now what, _and quick help to get you underway. Your own creativity and musical ideas can take it from there.

And let's not forget this:

*We're all using recipes anyway,* whenever we transcribe, or study scores, or call to mind anything we've listened to in the past. _How did this composer get that sound_, is the question we're trying to answer. I'm just proposing an easier way to get at that information, for as many orchestral combinations as possible, in a format that's concise, engaging and readily shareable.


----------



## Ashermusic

Absolutely, even if the recipe is only in our mind from our experience, it’s there. Often I do some things almost unthinkingly, because they work.


----------



## Yogevs

Cool thing. To be honest - not something I'll spend money on, but it is a very interesting thing tool to learn using the free stuff you are posting. I much prefer this over the pre-orchestrated patches in the different libraries to be honest.


----------



## rlundv

PhilipJohnston said:


> Hello everyone, really excited to see the feedback and suggestions
> 
> I'll take some time in the next week to respond to some of these posts more directly, but wanted to take a moment to clarify what this project is, and what it isn't.
> 
> As a composer, there are two reasons I would reach for a recipe:
> 
> _(1) To get me excited about things I could create,_
> 
> and
> 
> _(2) To give me just enough help so that I can actually create those things._
> 
> Think about cookbooks for a moment, you'll see they tick both those boxes. They let you window shop for options, and then give bare-bones instructions to create whatever you settle on. It's a potent combination—the window shopping _motivates_, and then the instructions _enable_—and the reason cookbooks are popular.
> 
> That said, while I've never been into Michelin-3-star restaurant kitchen, I'm betting there are no recipe books in there. But nor would a recipe author expect to find their work there. This is because cookbook recipes—and Orchestration Recipes—do _not_ claim a 3rd benefit:
> 
> _(3) Make the user a master of the Art_
> 
> There are already countless traditional orchestration resources dedicated to that. Think Samuel Adler. Rimsky Korsakov. Peter Alexander. Blatter. Piston. Books like these are essential, and inspired this series, but perhaps not in the way the authors may have hoped. After reading Adler from cover to cover, I could tell you all about the history of the development of crooks and valves on trumpets, the range of contrabassoons, and how to notate nonpitching instruments with pitch variation. But I emerged entirely unable to answer my most fundamental question—the question that mocks me every time I load up my DAW, as my virtual instrumentalists stare back at me, obedient, silent, expectant:
> 
> _Now what???_
> 
> Now what, indeed. That's where recipes come in. They provide a compendium of examples of _now what, _and quick help to get you underway. Your own creativity and musical ideas can take it from there.
> 
> And let's not forget this:
> 
> *We're all using recipes anyway,* whenever we transcribe, or study scores, or call to mind anything we've listened to in the past. _How did this composer get that sound_, is the question we're trying to answer. I'm just proposing an easier way to get at that information, for as many orchestral combinations as possible, in a format that's concise, engaging and readily shareable.


Wonderful product - so helpful! Really excited about this  Thanks for putting in all that work


----------



## Steve Martin

Hi Phillip,

sounds great - I really like this whole idea. May I ask, the orchestration examples sound so good, you've really done such a great job with them, are they created by samples libraries. Or, unless, it is a live orchestra?

many thanks,

Steve.


----------



## gyprock

It would be good to have a section on gestures and textural elements that could act like salt and pepper added to a recipe. These are decorative elements that are usually added after melody, harmony, bass and counter melodies have been established.


----------



## scoringdreams

(sets aside another $30 in addition to the amount saved up for Spitfire's AR1)
(waits impatiently)


----------



## Saxer

I like the idea of "recipes". It's less a complete instruction how to work but more of a mind set. If there's a melodic idea and a harmonic progression for it you can skip through your recipes collection how to orchestrate it. Because those recipes are kind of "macros" it's much easier to imagine the result. Doesn't mean you have to follow the recipe exactly after choosing it. But it's a great way to start working.


----------



## Eric G

Steve Martin said:


> Hi Phillip,
> 
> sounds great - I really like this whole idea. May I ask, the orchestration examples sound so good, you've really done such a great job with them, are they created by samples libraries. Or, unless, it is a live orchestra?
> 
> many thanks,
> 
> Steve.


If you go out to his youtube site you will see the sample libraries used in the description.
" Libraries used in this recipe are Oceania (Performance Samples), Cinematic Studio Strings, X3M Orchestral Percussion (Strezov), Cinematic Studio Brass. Recipes are designed to work though with whatever libraries you happen to have."


----------



## Eric G

gyprock said:


> It would be good to have a section on gestures and textural elements that could act like salt and pepper added to a recipe. These are decorative elements that are usually added after melody, harmony, bass and counter melodies have been established.


Same things for transitions, beginnings and interludes.


----------



## _johny

Great idea..hope it takes off. Will purchase when available.


----------



## Steve Martin

Eric G said:


> If you go out to his youtube site you will see the sample libraries used in the description.
> " Libraries used in this recipe are Oceania (Performance Samples), Cinematic Studio Strings, X3M Orchestral Percussion (Strezov), Cinematic Studio Brass. Recipes are designed to work though with whatever libraries you happen to have."



Hi Philip,
thank you for that info. That's very good to know what the libraries were.

best,

Steve


----------



## _johny

Philip, in addition to midi files, it would be good if a project file which uses a free orchestra, could also be included...like the template files here https://www.spitfireaudiothepage.com/posts/discover-templates 

Would make it really beginner friendly. Thanks for taking the initiative, I wish you well with this.


----------



## Yogevs

After subscribing to the YouTube channel last week (as a "put a pin in it for later"), I finally watched some of the video yesterday.
I was blown away. To me, as someone who is kind of new to orchestral composing this is no less than amazing.

Some thoughts I had.

First of all, it is very inspiring. I recently felt kind of down on myself as I was really repeating ideas and/or not sounding like myself. This made me not wanting to compose new stuff.. Watching a few of the videos on the channel really inspired me. I immediately wanted to open my DAW and try out all of the recipes. 

I like how "it is what it is". It is called ORCHESTRATION recipes it is definitely doubling down on that.
It is not talking about music theory, because it is not what it is about. It is such a nice thing to see how focused it is on what it is trying to achieve.

Great presentation! Short videos, visualising the things you need to focus on, etc... The idea of, at the end of each video, giving another example using the same recipe and then go "now you try!" is so so so important. I would LOVE to have some dedicated group, forum, whatever, where people can share their own demos for each recipe to inspire others.

The most important thing in my opinion is that not only giving me some new tools and expanding my "colour" kit, it is really teaching me how to listen and how to analyse music. It is one of those teaching tools that makes me want to continue on my own after I'm done with it.
I always thought that analysing score is mostly around music theory and harmony analysis. That's also one of the reasons I kind of avoided it. Because now it's a bit too difficult and time consuming to me.
That is not correct at all. I can listen to any score (by Mozart, Williams, or whatever), find the parts I like and create my own recipe.
What instruments are playing? What role each of them is taking? How can I create a short demo that sounds similar (orchestration-wise)?

Saying all that, it would have been really interesting to see some music theory recipes. Maybe in a vol 2 or a completely different product?
Some of the demos I really liked not just because of the orchestration but because of the composition decisions that were made (modulation, keys, etc...).
Again, not as something to copy, but as something to expand my mind, and help me practice on doing this later on my own.

Amazing amazing work @PhilipJohnston !


----------



## mussnig

Is there any info about the release date for "Volume 1", besides "Coming in November"? I'm really looking forward to this ...


----------



## rlundv

mussnig said:


> Is there any info about the release date for "Volume 1", besides "Coming in November"? I'm really looking forward to this ...


1+


----------



## 8noise

Great Idea¡¡¡¡
I'm in.


----------



## PhilipJohnston

Hello everyone - apologies for the radio silence. More detailed video walkthrough is coming early next week, release should be shortly after that. Definitely all on track for this month.

There's lots in this thread that I haven't replied to yet, upcoming video will hopefully answer some of those questions in the meantime.


----------



## Yogevs

On the same topic - also check out
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/10-orchestration-techniques.91715/


----------



## _johny

Maybe launching approaching black friday sales isn't the best idea. Lots of other offers around.


----------



## SlHarder

_johny said:


> Maybe launching approaching black friday sales isn't the best idea. Lots of other offers around.



My personal take on OrchestrationRecipes is that Philip has identified and codified a much needed "teaching moment". My BF budget has OR at the top of the "must buy" list.

In many cases midi BF sales are an opportunity for sellers to squeeze the last bucks out of items that have gotten stale sitting on the shelves.

OrchestrationRecipes is going to be a success because it takes a fresh approach to teaching. Everything old can be made new again.


----------



## Beans

_johny said:


> Maybe launching approaching black friday sales isn't the best idea. Lots of other offers around.



Or, it's the perfect time to jump on educational opportunities as people look to get the most out of their new library purchases. It's certainly a unique offer among the typical Black Friday deals.


----------



## PeterN

Yea, checked the vids, its really good idea. Nice brand too - congrats and best of luck.

Just cant believe its 2020 and someone came up with this stuff - it should have been done 10 years ago. I proposed this idea 2-3 years ago and got replies how different VI instruments are. Thanks man, you proved it works.


----------



## hessproject

I think the execution of your videos is great and I'm looking forward to the release. I can definitely see myself expanding my range with some new "flavors" outside what I'd usually create


----------



## Yogevs

_johny said:


> Maybe launching approaching black friday sales isn't the best idea. Lots of other offers around.



Or maybe offer a lower intro+BF price will work here ?


----------



## Beans

I just want to remind people that this is coming and to save some budget for it, if you'd like. It's hard to keep track of everything coming out soon! This is certainly a unique one that it seems many think deserves attention.


----------



## Drumdude2112

What'll it cost man What'll it Cost lol 😂


----------



## damcry

Yes ....
The later it’s out .... the smaller will be our budget 
So many BF sales are already out this year, very hard to resist


----------



## PhilipJohnston

You don't need self restraint on Black Friday to be able to afford Orchestration Recipes afterwards - this is a $30 investment  

Still tracking for end of November release...think of it as the Very Sensible Useful Self Improvement Thing you buy after Black Friday, to help you feel better about all the cash you burned through.


----------



## Drumdude2112

Wow , that is beyond reasonable for what you're putting out .
Really looking forward to this .


----------



## damcry

PhilipJohnston said:


> You don't need self restraint on Black Friday to be able to afford Orchestration Recipes afterwards - this is a $30 investment
> 
> Still tracking for end of November release...think of it as the Very Sensible Useful Self Improvement Thing you buy after Black Friday, to help you feel better about all the cash you burned through.


Thanks !!!


----------



## robcs

looking forward to the release


----------



## Oliver

+1 for the 30$...wow!


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Excited !!!!! Are these recipes safe enough to inject directly in to my veins? !!!


----------



## Beans

Paul Jelfs said:


> Excited !!!!! Are these recipes safe enough to inject directly in to my veins? !!!


----------



## Mrmonkey

Hey As someone who has only been trying to learn orchestral stuff for a year I think this is amazing and exactly what I have been crying out for.

Couple of things that would be great from just my subjective POV:

Would be great to see a ‘here are things that would work well added to the recipie/ here are good replacements.’

Part 2 to a recipie. I.e. this is the recipie but taken to the next level with x new instruments added.

Would be good to have some more categorisation as more recipes get added over time.

Couldn’t seem to read any of the text that went with them, but I hope that it breaks down why say an oboe is used rather than a flute, what the stylistic rules are and what the instruments role is in that particular recipe.

Cant wait till it’s available!


----------



## Beans

Mrmonkey said:


> Couldn’t seem to read any of the text that went with them, but I hope that it breaks down why say an oboe is used rather than a flute, what the stylistic rules are and what the instruments role is in that particular recipe.



Even if these recipes do have that information, have you also looked into an introductory course on orchestration? 

Some VI-C members have low cost options, I imagine even more so during Black Friday. I think I've seen Chris Siu mention such a course in one of his YouTube videos, which would cover the roles of different instruments, common doublings, and so on.


----------



## Eric G

Mrmonkey said:


> Hey As someone who has only been trying to learn orchestral stuff for a year I think this is amazing and exactly what I have been crying out for.



There is no easy button here. You got to put in the work. What you are talking about is tone colors/ timbre combinations, musical registers, etc... The recipes are not a replacement for knowing the orchestra. The combinations are almost endless.

I would start with two resources that I found invaluable when I started:
Nikolay Rimsky-Korsakov's book on Orchestration (its $0 on Kindle) 



And if you want something very beginner friendly I would look at Peter Alexander's Visual Orchestration books/courses (with the referenced Spectratone Chart for Orchestral Instruments). Its inexpensive and very approachable and provides a framework to understanding what instruments work together and where:









Visual Orchestration 1: Spectrotone Course - Basic Edition







www.alexanderpublishing.com





Best of luck on your journey.


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic

Beans said:


> Even if these recipes do have that information, have you also looked into an introductory course on orchestration?
> 
> Some VI-C members have low cost options, I imagine even more so during Black Friday. I think I've seen Chris Siu mention such a course in one of his YouTube videos, which would cover the roles of different instruments, common doublings, and so on.


Yes sir! I've also got Black Friday type sale going on atm actually, but I haven't shared my courses publicly. Love what you're doing here by the way @PhilipJohnston!


----------



## Nova

As a hobbyist who started going down the composing/orchestration/DAW/sample library collection rabbit hole a couple of years ago and is utterly and hopelessly overwhelmed with everything that I need to learn, I have to say thank you a thousand times and take my money. If any other veteran composers out there want to add your own recipes, you can have my money too.


----------



## PhilipJohnston

Just added lots of new information to the *original post*, including pricing and release date


----------



## ennbr

Thanks for the update


----------



## markit

I am SO ready for this!!!!


----------



## Steve Martin

very much looking forward to this also.


----------



## pbobcat

Count me in!


----------



## Drumdude2112

cant wait to tear into this !!
it'll be the PERFECT thing to get my mind back into the actual WRITING part of the program and out of 'black friday drama' lol (and this is one INTENSE black friday might i add lol )


----------



## Mrmonkey

Eric G said:


> There is no easy button here. You got to put in the work. What you are talking about is tone colors/ timbre combinations, musical registers, etc... The recipes are not a replacement for knowing the orchestra. The combinations are almost endless.
> 
> I would start with two resources that I found invaluable when I started:
> Nikolay Rimsky-Korsakov's book on Orchestration (its $0 on Kindle)
> 
> 
> 
> And if you want something very beginner friendly I would look at Peter Alexander's Visual Orchestration books/courses (with the referenced Spectratone Chart for Orchestral Instruments). Its inexpensive and very approachable and provides a framework to understanding what instruments work together and where:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Visual Orchestration 1: Spectrotone Course - Basic Edition
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.alexanderpublishing.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Best of luck on your journey.




Thanks for the book recommendation! Just grabbed it and started a read. It’s great, you often hear things like ‘violins can go in octaves’ but this breaks down why. It’s a little complex on the terminology which is why something like the orchestral recipes is great for giving you an interactive window to experiment with just a few instruments, learn something new and just play, rather than having to pick from the whole selection of possibilities.


----------



## Eric G

Mrmonkey said:


> Thanks for the book recommendation! Just grabbed it and started a read. It’s great, you often hear things like ‘violins can go in octaves’ but this breaks down why. It’s a little complex on the terminology which is why something like the orchestral recipes is great for giving you an interactive window to experiment with just a few instruments, learn something new and just play, rather than having to pick from the whole selection of possibilities.


Don't worry it will all start coming together. The recipes will help validate what you are reading etc... Best of luck.


----------



## babylonwaves

Thank you for doing this. I’m in and also I’ll start thinking about what could share.


----------



## SlHarder

Anticipating the release of OrchestrationRecipes is helping me get thru BF in a sane, sensible and thrifty manner. 

I'm curious if other followers of this thread changed or moderated their BF behavior after OrchRecipes whetted their appetite for "getting back to the basics"?


----------



## dzilizzi

SlHarder said:


> Anticipating the release of OrchestrationRecipes is helping me get thru BF in a sane, sensible and thrifty manner.
> 
> I'm curious if other followers of this thread changed or moderated their BF behavior after OrchRecipes whetted their appetite for "getting back to the basics"?


No, it didn't help. But $30 is in my no-brainer territory. As in, I don't really have to plan and re-arrange to spend that much.


----------



## ennbr

OK I think we met both release criteria it's the end of November and 3 days past Black Friday any updates


----------



## gsilbers

PhilipJohnston said:


> *Releasing 3 days after Black Friday*
> To help you get the most out of all those libraries you just bought.
> (And feel less guilty about having bought them).
> Special launch pricing of $30, reverts to full price of $59 on Jan 1, 2021.
> 
> *Whoosh*
> For composers who want ideas fast, 5 minute videos condense recipes into essentials. You’ll hear a finished version, watch a quick DAW build, follow the score…then over to you. Whoosh. That’s the sound of your brain saying “Ok, I’ve got this, let me try”.
> 
> *Transcribe. Transcribe. Transcribe.*
> The start of each recipe preview is spoiler-free. No instrument lists, no instructions, just the audio. Loop the preview, write out your best guess, then check against reality. Make Mike Verta proud.
> 
> *Chef’s Notes*
> Your cheat sheet when you’re ready to compose. Every recipe includes detailed written Chef’s Notes, with tips, cautions, alternatives, and the thinking behind every step.
> 
> *Mad Scientist? We got you too.*
> Prefer to learn by experimenting? Import any recipe’s MIDI files into your DAW or notation app. Reverse engineer the original, or tweak to create your own.
> 
> *Study scores included*
> Laid out at concert pitch for easier reading. Every note of every example—for study, or if you prefer to actually perform/record examples into your DAW. (You’ll get much more lifelike performances that way)
> 
> *Here’s two we prepared earlier*
> Every recipe includes two different examples—proving that recipes retain their signature sound even when the notes change. So feel free to use your own notes
> 
> *Your sample libraries are fine*
> VSL, Spitfire, EastWest, OrchestralTools, Cinesamples, Samplemodelling, Cinematic Studio Series...it doesn't matter. The whole point of recipes is that they work with whatever you've got.
> 
> *Live preview ingredient lists*
> To help you choose the best articulations from your own libraries, as each ingredient is listed, you’ll hear a short phrase with indicative articulations, as they were used in the mix.
> 
> *…but if you absolutely* /have/ *to know libraries were used*
> There is a disclosure at the very end of every recipe, but it’s buried down the bottom, it’s in fine print, and it’s not the point. Cooking recipes don’t tell you which store to buy your carrots from.
> 
> *Volume 2?*
> Well, I’ve only just finished Volume 1, and these things take time, but Volume 2 is underway
> 
> *Questions?*
> Email Philip Johnston




Very cool idea.

if u need ideas for thefuture I’d say getting movie “devices” or fragments theory/orchestration/style that works for specific emotional context in a movie scene. Those that composers use all the time for similar scenes.


----------



## SlHarder

ennbr said:


> it's the end of November and 3 days past Black Friday any updates


I'm fired up for OR so this was the thread I hit first this morning. I think that Philip is sort of a " one man band" so I'm going with "patience is a virtue" for the time being.


----------



## SlHarder

At 2:30pm, Nov 30, Denver, Co time I got some good news

In a private message Philip told me:
He is doing final testing of website.
He is in Australia.
He intends to go live while it is still Nov 30th somewhere in the world.
He wanted his first post here to be the "it's live!" announcement.

I live in Colorado and I'm hoping OrchestrationRecipes will be live when I get up the morning of Dec 1.

I know it will have been well worth the wait.


----------



## Beans

It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas.


----------



## SlHarder

Beans said:


> It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas.


This sounds like a really good idea for helping Santa deliver OrchestrationRecipes:

*Australia*
Santa starts his Christmas Eve journey with a nice cold beer, courtesy of little kids in Australia. They may also leave some cookies and milk and even a few carrots for the reindeer. But the beer comes first — maybe it's to keep Santa warm on the long night ahead.


----------



## hessproject

Eric G said:


> I would start with two resources that I found invaluable when I started:
> Nikolay Rimsky-Korsakov's book on Orchestration (its $0 on Kindle)
> 
> Best of luck on your journey.



Just wanted to point out that the book is also on Project Gutenberg for free and includes all of the musical examples with midi/mp3s as well! I've been working through it myself.

Excited for the release of recipes!


----------



## PhilipJohnston

Ok everyone - it's live. Go get yourself some recipes:









Orchestration Recipes


Hear the orchestration, then see how to recreate it—short videos show you which instruments to load, and how to combine them.



orchestrationrecipes.com


----------



## SlHarder

PhilipJohnston said:


> Go get yourself some recipes:


And DONE!!!


----------



## SlHarder

WOW Philip, the presentation of the material is at a much higher standard than I was expecting. I'm not going to be able to get away with snatching a nap in the back row while I'm working thru your recipes.


----------



## robcs

Done!


----------



## hessproject

PhilipJohnston said:


> Ok everyone - it's live. Go get yourself some recipes:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Orchestration Recipes
> 
> 
> Hear the orchestration, then see how to recreate it—short videos show you which instruments to load, and how to combine them.
> 
> 
> 
> orchestrationrecipes.com




Loving the chef's notes. Great stuff, thank you for this!


----------



## Beans

The presentation is precious. Well done. I hope this really catches fire for you.


----------



## tebling

I just went through recipe #1, and the short but intense wait was well worth it 

The presentation is top notch all the way through, but the chef's notes are where the real gold is found. Philip not only explains how the elements of the recipe work together, but also covers the compositional motivations behind the musical choices (example: dissonance and resolution) - and adds some humor to keep things light. So it feels a bit like a fun mini composition class, and that's more than I was expecting.

Of course, to get the most out of these means doing the exercises, so be prepared to block out some time!


----------



## CGR

PhilipJohnston said:


> Ok everyone - it's live. Go get yourself some recipes:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Orchestration Recipes
> 
> 
> Hear the orchestration, then see how to recreate it—short videos show you which instruments to load, and how to combine them.
> 
> 
> 
> orchestrationrecipes.com


Fantastic concept and realisation Philip. Congratulations on the launch.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Congrats on the launch! I already know I'll want volume 2...and 3...and however many you decide to make!


----------



## MusiquedeReve

Eric G said:


> There is no easy button here. You got to put in the work. What you are talking about is tone colors/ timbre combinations, musical registers, etc... The recipes are not a replacement for knowing the orchestra. The combinations are almost endless.
> 
> I would start with two resources that I found invaluable when I started:
> Nikolay Rimsky-Korsakov's book on Orchestration (its $0 on Kindle)
> 
> 
> 
> And if you want something very beginner friendly I would look at Peter Alexander's Visual Orchestration books/courses (with the referenced Spectratone Chart for Orchestral Instruments). Its inexpensive and very approachable and provides a framework to understanding what instruments work together and where:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Visual Orchestration 1: Spectrotone Course - Basic Edition
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.alexanderpublishing.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Best of luck on your journey.





Would you say this would be the best route to take for a beginner as opposed to the recipes?


----------



## Daidy

I'm in ! The recipes will be a excellent companion on my journey of learning. 
And I already hope for more...


----------



## Markrs

Purchased!


----------



## Yogevs

Excited!!!


----------



## Yogevs

@PhilipJohnston can you please allow to download the videos and pdfs? When I purchased I thought this is how it would actually work.
I HATE the courses browser UI and I much rather download the pdfs and videos and watch them on my iPad while I work.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

One suggestion if I may @PhilipJohnston would be to name the Recipes by some identifying quality or mood so it is easier to refer back to them via the table of contents (vs. memorizing what "Recipe 1" was).


----------



## Rich4747

can one use paypal for purchase?


----------



## mussnig

Rich4747 said:


> can one use paypal for purchase?



Yes. I just used it.


----------



## _johny

Purchased...best wishes for your new venture


----------



## PhilipJohnston

ALittleNightMusic said:


> One suggestion if I may @PhilipJohnston would be to name the Recipes by some identifying quality or mood so it is easier to refer back to them via the table of contents (vs. memorizing what "Recipe 1" was).


You’re right about this, and will become increasingly useful as the number of recipes grows. I had actually started the process of naming every recipe, now have a new found respect for people who have to come up with names for synth patches. It’s on my post-release todo list...very happy in the meantime to take suggested names from community members


----------



## ennbr

Thanks Phillip excellent product signed up a few minutes after it went live and proceeded to watch all of the videos and downloaded the midi tracks. 

One request can the text be provided as a PDF to reference if needed while watching the video and testing ideas in the DAW. Kind of a challenge when running on a laptop with a single display.


----------



## emilio_n

Great idea! I am in too!


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Another Like for Downloadable Files and Videos. I know you might worry about Torrents and the like, but I feel its far too niche for anyone to either upload or go looking to download.

You will only gain sales from making this an option, not lose them


----------



## Paul Jelfs

I think if you have simple titles , that portray what the recipe is all about - Mood , style and reference , naming shouldnt be too bad. 

"Epic Choir + WW Boss Fight" "Ready for take-off Strings + WW 6/8" 

I am sure you can come up with better names than mine !


----------



## mussnig

I don't know what possibilities this platform (thinkific?) allows but what about a list of keywords (ranging from moods to the instruments) for each recipe?


----------



## Beans

mussnig said:


> I don't know what possibilities this platform (thinkific?) allows but what about a list of keywords (ranging from moods to the instruments) for each recipe?



Good idea. Even if the platform doesn't allow for tagging posts, just a text string of characteristics could be nice to see added to each recipe name. Recipe 22: Tense, Underscore, Pulsing.


----------



## Ilko Birov

We could have a poll for some of the more exotic names.
Great initiative, @PhilipJohnston !


----------



## ag75

Eric G said:


> Brilliant. I have a prosonal project where I am doing exactly this but for the Giacchino, Williams and Powell "sound". I am in.
> 
> Consider them bought and now I have a great standard to conform to. Please make a template (text, midi etc available as a basic standard to follow)


You could also take it a step further and cater it to what libraries you own. I once had a cocktail app where you put in what ingredients/liquor you had and it would give you recipes based on that information.


----------



## NekujaK

@PhilipJohnston really excellent work with the Orchestration Recipes! I'm finding them very informative and useful.

- I echo the previous suggestions to give recipes names that suggest the musical intent/style.

- Also, it would be really helpful if examples of known orchestral works were provided for each recipe. References are occasionally mentioned in the Chef's Notes when discussing individual parts, but it would also be helpful to have references that exemplify the recipe as a whole.

This is really great stuff, and I look forward to more!


----------



## Eric G

Purchased. Thoroughly Enjoying them.

I am going the opposite direction on the downloadable PDF and videos of his considerable efforts. I know MANY online MUSIC courses that do not offer this for very good reason.

I think its asking much for only $30 to get the PDF and the Videos on download. I know there are honorable people here but can we gain some trust and let him make some money first? Perhaps when he has finished some more volumes he can make that a bonus for completing the Bundle or purchasing it all together.

Its not like he doesn't provide downloadable MIDI.

Oh and I am watching Recipe 02 on my IPad right now, so....


----------



## darthdeus

The beginning of the promo video are as if they were taken directly out of my brain. I couldn’t stop laughing with tears of joy. It’s 4am and I’m considering running over to wake up my wife and show her the promo video, considering I just spent the past 2 weeks talking about black friday sales literally in every single conversation. Don’t even get me started on how many orchestral sample libraries I “needed”.

Going to buy this first thing tomorrow!


----------



## gnapier

PhilipJohnston said:


> *Out now!*
> To help you get the most out of all those Black Friday libraries you just bought.
> (And feel less guilty about having bought them).
> Special launch pricing of $30, reverts to full price of $59 on Jan 1, 2021.
> Get your recipes at *orchestrationrecipes.com*




I had written an overly long note praising this idea, but I deleted it because it said over and over in different ways: “This is simply brilliant.”

I’ve wanted and needed something like this for a while now. Thank you.


----------



## procreative

I actually think even if you are more experienced, these are great tools as kickstarters to new ideas as sometimes during a block hearing something played differently and seeing how its broken down can lead to something else.


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## Yury Tikhomirov

I am in! Looking forward to trying them all with everything that I have purchased (collected?) through all these years.


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## bvaughn0402

Just brilliant and bought.
To echo other ideas:

Would be nice to have theme names per recipe
Would be nice to give 3-4 examples of works that have used the recipe
Would be nice to create whole groupings around a theme (eg, action, trailer, sentimental, sad, horror, tension, ...). I think it would be cool to buy, say, a whole set of 24 recipes around horror.


----------



## dzilizzi

Having fun with this already and getting to use some of my newer libraries. This was a great idea. Thanks!


----------



## lgmcben

Now I can beat John Williams


----------



## erikradbo

Bought it. Thanks a bunch.


----------



## el-bo

GtrString said:


> Eeeh, this is very simplified critical listening. Take any arrangement, identify which instruments are playing. Recipe? No, music is about voices that are saying something. Each instrument is expressing a different voice. The recipe is nothing, the intent is everything.
> 
> You are supposed to decide who is talking and give them a reason to, at least in your own head. You are supposed to say something unique, not reproduce what others have said. Music is an ongoing conversation, that eludes you. That one unique expression and conversation is what justifies a recording of it. To put in on record that this conversation exsisted at that point in time. Then it makes sense to revisit it. It wont make sense to revisit a reproduced, formulaic conversation without intent.
> 
> I think this recipe analogy quickly gets old and counter-productive. Students will start to use recipes as blueprints, and slam others for not complying with the “right” recipe. The recipes ends up like canons, a conservative and so very classical idea..



Your reservations are somewhat understandable. However, it seems that the same concerns have been adequately addressed throughout this thread. At this point, I believe that most potential buyers know what to expect from this, as well as what they shouldn't be expecting.

I see this as more akin to a foreign-language phrasebook. It'll give you enough to buy "una cervezita", y "un pinchito de tortilla", or to ask directions to the local 'Oficina de Correos'. But you ain't gonna be foolin' anybody into believing you're the next Cervantes 

*Edited*: for grammar mistakes. Oh, the irony


----------



## el-bo

GtrString said:


> Sure, this type of lazyness put into canon was inevitable sooner or later. I will prepare for the struggles in my classes, if they come as I anticipate.



Not sure what you mean.

Anyway, I wanted to add that one of the reasons I've avoided this product is that I don't think I have enough knowledge to really be able to capitalise on the recipes. In other words, these are no substitute for a broader music education.


----------



## mussnig

GtrString said:


> Eeeh, this is very simplified critical listening. Take any arrangement, identify which instruments are playing. Recipe? No, music is about voices that are saying something. Each instrument is expressing a different voice. The recipe is nothing, the intent is everything.
> 
> You are supposed to decide who is talking and give them a reason to, at least in your own head. You are supposed to say something unique, not reproduce what others have said. Music is an ongoing conversation, that eludes you. That one unique expression and conversation is what justifies a recording of it. To put in on record that this conversation exsisted at that point in time. Then it makes sense to revisit it. It wont make sense to revisit a reproduced, formulaic conversation without intent.
> 
> I think this recipe analogy quickly gets old and counter-productive. Students will start to use recipes as blueprints, and slam others for not complying with the “right” recipe. The recipes ends up like canons, a conservative and so very classical idea..



I think you are forgetting that there are also many people who do this as a hobby and who simply do not have the time to learn the theory from the basics until they get to a level to really understand a piece of music, identify its most important parts and understand why they are playing what they are playing (or it would take them years and they would lose all passion for it in the meantime).

Also, those are not simply recipes - there are also more or less detailed explanations, why each instrument or group is playing in a specific way etc. So you can also see this whole thing as a set of examples with analysis/explanations. And at least I - as a hobbyist - am learning something, just from watching the videos and reading the text. And it also gives me the feeling, that once I am able to understand enough of those little examples, that I can go on and try to understand more complex stuff. Of course, maybe I won't be successful (because I lack too much other knowledge) but at least this way I don't have the feeling of being overwhelmed (which I usually am, when I try to study something more complicated on my own).
Sure, you might disagree with the way things are presented. But if it's one thing that I have learned as a teacher myself (having taught in middle school, high school and university), then it's the fact that there is no "right way" to teach something - everyone is different and everyone needs a different approach to understand things (or even a different teacher - the personal feeling you have towards your teacher plays an important role).

Lastly, I don't think it's even intended to just be blueprints. On the contrary, the accompanying text encourages you to further experiment etc. So you can also see this as starting points.


I agree, that if you want to do this on a professional level, then this is not a shortcut to getting there (and there probably are no shortcuts). Still, even in such a case I would see it as valuable (because it might give you a new point of view on certain things). Also, I understand if you don't like it personally - just don't buy it in that case. But I think that there are a lot of people who really find this helpful ...


----------



## NekujaK

There is no single correct way to learn things. Knowledge can be acquired through many different methods, approaches, and perspectives, and the resulting goals and outcomes can also vary.

No claim was ever made that Orchestration Recipes would turn someone into a music PhD or even make them a great composer. They simply offer a unique way of breaking down and understanding certain orchestration and composition techniques. How those techniques are ultimately put to use by students is entirely dependent on an indvidual's talent and creativity.

The fact of the matter is western music is largely made up of patterns and techniques that have been repeated in one form or another by composers and orchestrators for centuries, so it's not surprising that these elements can be expressed as "recipes".

And it's not limited to classical music. How many blues songs have been written that follow the same exact 12-bar pattern, with the same instrumentation, rhythms and voicings? And yet, within that blues "recipe", there are great blues songs and lots of not-so-great ones. The recipe isn't the determining factor, it merely provides a framework in which the composer can work.

Orchestration Recipes won't turn me into the next John Williams, but they do give me a roadmap that points me in the right direction that I can put to use immediately. Nothing wrong with that.


----------



## lgmcben

NekujaK said:


> Orchestration Recipes won't turn me into the next John Williams


But it just turned my Berlin Inspire into Berlin Inspire Pro: defeat John Williams edition


----------



## darthdeus

GtrString said:


> Eeeh, this is very simplified critical listening. Take any arrangement, identify which instruments are playing. Recipe? No, music is about voices that are saying something. Each instrument is expressing a different voice. The recipe is nothing, the intent is everything.
> 
> You are supposed to decide who is talking and give them a reason to, at least in your own head. You are supposed to say something unique, not reproduce what others have said. Music is an ongoing conversation, that eludes you. That one unique expression and conversation is what justifies a recording of it. To put in on record that this conversation exsisted at that point in time. Then it makes sense to revisit it. It wont make sense to revisit a reproduced, formulaic conversation without intent.
> 
> I think this recipe analogy quickly gets old and counter-productive. Students will start to use recipes as blueprints, and slam others for not complying with the “right” recipe. The recipes ends up like canons, a conservative and so very classical idea..



I'm sorry but I feel like you live in a bubble of musicians and people who have been doing this all their life. It might not be useful for you as someone with a ton of experience, but for people like me who are just starting with orchestration even the critical listening part is incredibly hard. Even though I've been listening to classical and orchestral music for years I still have trouble listening to the recipe with 4 voices and identify the exact instruments (especially brass and woodwinds).

Also to be completely honest I really really really don't want to do music in terms of artistic intent or trying to say something. It's like with paintings, a lot of people enjoy talking about artist's intent and expressing themselves in various ways in the way they paint it, but to me paintings are way more about the mechanical aspects and how it's drawn. As a person with a technical/math background I care a lot more about patterns and nuances and the actual tangible bits than artistic expression.

That's not to say that artistic expression isn't important, and to a lot of people it is. But for me it really is not the end goal. Whenever I hear people talk about "feeling the music" I instantly feel like that's just not me. I prefer to analyze it. That doesn't mean I don't feel emotion when listening to something, but I really couldn't care less if it's because of a unique of a snowflake instrument and careful arrangement, or if it's a synthy electric guitar hans zimmer-esque thing layered on top of something any classicial musician would condemn.

It's not even about originality. Any time there is some super artistic hipster thing that's extremely original and artistic I usually don't feel a thing and just roll my eyes. I'm sorry, I know these things are important to a lot of people. But just as composing "unique" music by following a recipe or a pattern or an analytical process sounds to you, you have to realize that there are people who feel exactly the opposite way.

When I hear a musician improvise something amazing and then ask them how they did it and they say "I don't know, I just felt it this way" it instantly loses a ton of value in my eyes, as compared to when they say "I felt like it should be like this, so I made conscious decisions to do it that way". I know this is sacrilegious to even think, let alone say publically, it is how I feel.

I'll close this with a real life experience of this type. I was having a group discussion in a "library" about generating music using AI when this old gentleman (a lifelong musician) sitting nearby spontaneously raised his voice and said something like: "Are you crazy? Machines producing music? Music should be about feelings, about expressing the author's torment, about communication and explaining their life's journey through the music. A machine couldn't possibly every do this" ... it was an interesting experience, but as someone who tried pursuing a PhD in machine learning and wanted to focus on generating music using AI, I just disagree. It might be that way for some people, but I'll be just as happy listening to a "Chopin piece" generated by an algorithm after it crunched through everything Chopin ever wrote as I would be to the original piece. Because I would believe that maybe the algorithm could potentially express what Chopin wanted even better than Chopin himself (oh god I'll get crucified for saying this, am I not?), because it could just look at everything he ever did, find the patterns, and compose the ultimate distillation of his "life's work".

The same way I feel that a small and simple recipe could distill a specific feeling in a way that is extremely useful and compact, regardless of how it is later used. It might be blasphemy to some, especially people who spent their life studying music, but for people who dedicate their life to other things, these alternative approaches are incredibly useful.

edit: Since I've already said enough to be crucified for I'll add one more thing. I also feel that teaching music theory in terms of musical history is wrong  Almost every music theory I've read starts out with "we explain it this way because that's how it's been done". Only recently have I started looking at books that just analyze music theory in the raw form (e.g. with linguistics) and holyshit it's so refreshing. Even just the notation itself is ridiculous and full of arbitrary poo, while looking at something like 7th chords on a Tonnetz diagram is mindblowingly glorious. I just wish more people cared about a principled and logical approach, rather than reiterating the same old ways they've learned this. A good example is that here (Czech Republic and I think in Germany too) we write H instead of B and B instead of Bb ... and if you google the historical reasons for that it just makes me suicidal just thinking of all the people who didn't care to fix this at any point and just accepted this. I still say B and fight with everyone I speak to about this and revert to just saying chord names in english, because the notation in our native language just gets idiotic.


----------



## SlHarder

Some educators believe in teaching their subject in the same manner that they have used for decades, it is up to their students to adapt to the teacher 's manner, ie swim or sink.

Other educators adopt new techniques over time, they attempt to make the material studied more accessible to their students.

Each student can chose their educator.


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## Ashermusic

Any knowledge is valuable. What the user does with that knowledge is up to the user and the people dispensing the knowledge are not to blame.

I was taught sonata allegro form. It didn’t turn me into a Mozart-Hayden soundalike.


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## PeterN

I did all these recipes myself 4 years ago, when this concept was not available. Endless gathering and 4 years of practicing. Until I realised grand orchestration is really not the thing on my music, rather it should be simple. 4 years of work, sometimes 10 hours a day. Now this concept is available - with the click of the keyboard. I dont know - is there a bitter taste in the mouth now. Like someone who digged a trench before the finger snap was available. I dont know. Does hard work and good deeds bring results? - not always. Good luck with project, theres 100% chance it will succeed.


----------



## shponglefan

GtrString said:


> You are supposed to say something unique, not reproduce what others have said.



A lot of great art borrows from what came before it. And given the sheer volume of creative works people produce as a whole, it's next-to-impossible to be truly unique. IMHO, uniqueness is overrated. There is nothing wrong with iterating on what others have done.

The audience also needs to be considered. One's audience may appreciate familiarity; stray too far from that and one risks alienating them.


----------



## dzilizzi

The thing with these recipes is that they are little exercises that help you understand nuances of theory that I didn't get in my basic theory class. (I couldn't take advanced because it is only a day class and I work) Things like the altos sound more interesting if they aren't a perfect third below the sopranos. I'm not following the recipe exactly. I am making my own melody using the general idea of the recipe. And I'm coming up with something interesting that I would never have thought to write. 

And, more importantly, I'm having fun doing it. Which means I will continue learning. It is, after all, a hobby for me. If it isn't enjoyable, I will eventually quit it.


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## versko19

Another thing about these recipes and the concept of recipes is that they are something you can build from. All of the greatest chefs learned the most basic recipes at one point or another, and then they built off of those recipes. I view these orchestral recipes in the same manner. They show a path to achieving a specific type of "dish", but once you have an understanding of what that dish is delivering, you can build off of it and change it as much as you'd like. 

I'm personally excited to use these orchestral recipes to help develop better orchestration on a micro level, and see how I might evolve them into my own recipes and variations as I progress.


----------



## el-bo

versko19 said:


> Another thing about these recipes and the concept of recipes is that they are something you can build from. All of the greatest chefs learned the most basic recipes at one point or another, and then they built off of those recipes. I view these orchestral recipes in the same manner. They show a path to achieving a specific type of "dish", but once you have an understanding of what that dish is delivering, you can build off of it and change it as much as you'd like.
> 
> I'm personally excited to use these orchestral recipes to help develop better orchestration on a micro level, and see how I might evolve them into my own recipes and variations as I progress.



Perhaps, also like sub-recipes. A chef will learn to make various different sauces e.g roux, but these are just one part of the overall dish.


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## versko19

el-bo said:


> Perhaps, also like sub-recipes. A chef will learn to make various different sauces e.g roux, but these are just one part of the overall dish.



Actually, I think that's an even better analogy. You're right. It's not just about having the recipe (e.g., roux), but knowing how to use it, when to use it, what it works with, etc.


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## el-bo

versko19 said:


> Actually, I think that's an even better analogy. You're right. It's not just about having the recipe (e.g., roux), but knowing how to use it, when to use it, what it works with, etc.



Of course. Though, I suspect if I learnt how to make a decent vegan roux, I'd end up using it on/in everything, regardless


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## darthdeus

IMO it's also important to realize that even a professional chef probably learned a recipe for every important meal they know at some point. While maybe not in a simplified form, the whole reason a certain meal has a name is that it has signature ingredients in it. Much like a "braaam" SFX has a signature sound. Knowing a specific recipe that gives the signature result does not mean one has to be limited to what the recipe says, but it gives a common starting point.


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## dzilizzi

el-bo said:


> Of course. Though, I suspect if I learnt how to make a decent vegan roux, I'd end up using it on/in everything, regardless


I learnt how to make a perfect white sauce years ago. It went on everything for a while.


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## aegisninja

So, I ordered this last night and am thoroughly enjoying it. Just wanted to mention that I would love an actual print copy of the recipes, like a cookbook.


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## jneebz

Wow. Done. Thank you @PhilipJohnston!


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## el-bo

dzilizzi said:


> It went on everything for a while.



I don't doubt it


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## Ashermusic

I don't need this, because I studied all this, but I may sign up just to be supportive. This is a fantastic idea.


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## NekujaK

PeterN said:


> I did all these recipes myself 4 years ago, when this concept was not available. Endless gathering and 4 years of practicing. Until I realised grand orchestration is really not the thing on my music, rather it should be simple. 4 years of work, sometimes 10 hours a day. Now this concept is available - with the click of the keyboard. I dont know - is there a bitter taste in the mouth now. Like someone who digged a trench before the finger snap was available. I dont know. Does hard work and good deeds bring results? - not always. Good luck with project, theres 100% chance it will succeed.


So you're bitter because Philip probably put in the same amount of time and effort as you did to come up with these recipes, but decided to share his findings with the musical community at large, so everyone could benefit? Or are you bitter because you came up with the concept before Philip did, but kept it all to yourself?


----------



## ed buller

This is a Fantastic resource. Great job

best


ed


----------



## PeterN

NekujaK said:


> So you're bitter because Philip probably put in the same amount of time and effort as you did to come up with these recipes, but decided to share his findings with the musical community at large, so everyone could benefit? Or are you bitter because you came up with the concept before Philip did, but kept it all to yourself?



Nobody is bitter, its a great idea.

And why would you even care?


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## dflood

Just signed up. What a terrific and fun way to learn these orchestration chops!


----------



## Gene Pool

PeterN said:


> I did all these recipes myself 4 years ago, when this concept was not available. [snip] I dont know - is there a bitter taste in the mouth now. Like someone who digged a trench before the finger snap was available.



I may be mistaking your meaning, bitterness-wise, but if it helps, understand that this is an old concept that composers have been doing for themselves for centuries—reducing, dissecting and cataloguing their favorite _scoring models_ as a part of their larger score study routine. Different composers do it different ways, and with the right frame of mind as to potential misuse, it's a useful pedagogy. If you benefited from having done something along these lines, I would think that'd be enough in itself.


----------



## PeterN

Gene Pool said:


> I may be mistaking your meaning, bitterness-wise, but if it helps, understand that this is an old concept that composers have been doing for themselves for centuries—reducing, dissecting and cataloguing their favorite _scoring models_ as a part of their larger score study routine. Different composers do it different ways, and with the right frame of mind as to potential misuse, it's a useful pedagogy. If you benefited from having done something along these lines, I would think that'd be enough in itself.



All is cool - it was just metaphoric language on much toil and time this hobby takes. You need to curse out at times. If its still allowed - not sure.

So now we are down on this road with these ready midi recipes. Hell, this will develop to really great stuff. After two years from now, I maybe steal it too. Soon we have amateurs making stuff like John Williams in a two month course - it took 30 years for John and endless toil and copying.. Heh. Will be fun to observe too.


----------



## Michael Antrum

These look like fun. 

Short snippets to transcribe and play with and some useful notes and further ideas. Great for those times when you don't have a lot of time, but can fit in some quick study.

Kind of reminds me of completing short sections whilst practising 4 part harmony.

Note to self - do not transcribe the intro music.....

Rather than inputting these into a DAW, I think I'll get more out of this using Staffpad, particularly when playing around with variations afterwards.....


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## tebling

So, now that folks have had time with the recipes - who's going to be the first to post their own "dish"?


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## Michael Antrum

tebling said:


> So, now that folks have had time with the recipes - who's going to be the first to post their own "dish"?


----------



## SomeGuy

Small request, can you find it in your heart to extend the intro period a few days into 2021?


----------



## PeterN

Btw guys. I demand royalties. Heres my post from 2018. (You may want to look at the replies too, and further communication, now when the concept is out). 

*[I]PeterN[/I]*_
*Senior Member*
Oct 19, 2018_

I can say something no course has yet delivered, and that is extensive midi examples on different types of midi orchestration. By that I mean theres a midi file with the video, and you can add any of your own, say, oboe, cello and so on there, on the “oboe track”, once you have opened it, and then analyse different techniques of midi orchestration this way. With a tutorial video. The person in the tutorial video could use emberton Cello, fine, you can even use Logics own cello. And I mean someone experienced in midi orchestration, and taking on everything with different woodwind harmonies to string runs. With a fuckin midi file. Sorry. Sure, you can do it by reading notes too, but this is another way, midi orchestration, and would probably find plenty customers. I just ask, why, has nobody done this yet, bcs me thinks theres money in selling orchestration course like this.

_---_



> _JohnG said:_
> _Nobody does it because it wouldn't work. Even within the same family of libraries (East West, Spitfire), the midi implementation -- the responsiveness and behaviour of the midi instruments -- can differ radically.
> 
> Consequently, there is no practical way to create a "universal" midi mockup, one that would allow users to substitute, to take your example, one oboe instead of another.
> 
> In fact, I think that it's a myth, often repeated, that one's midi orchestration should be significantly different from a real orchestration. I don't agree with that premise.
> 
> Accordingly, what you are hoping for already exists: printed musical scores! Many times, I've taken four or eight bars or whatever and tried to make them sound exactly like the recording. It's not that easy but it's possible to do, and I learned a lot about orchestration that way. That and getting some experience with real players.
> Click to expand..._


Well, I dont believe in that. Say that one cello is so different from another that u couldnt make a course like this. I can agree there will be differences, but not crucial ones. And e.g. a great legato sound wouldnt even be the main point, main point would be to give customer possibility to analyze a score in midi, not in notation. And just to make this clear, personally I can analyze scoresheets, while not being a master on this, it is as easy as learning the russian alphabet. Still, Id be keen to buy a course with midi files and analyze that way. And not talking about a grande star wars mockup, it could be as simple as “violin melody, woodwinds harmonic movement, bass pizzicato”. Or whatever. Needless to say I have built up a lot of these great techniques myself, also by analyzing scoresheets, since no midi course delievered this.

----



> JohnG said:
> You're wrong.


....


And so on 







What Courses Have You Purchased For Your Education?


Hi all, I have a simple question for you today. When it comes to learning how to play/read music, music production, orchestration, arranging, mixing, etc., what online courses have you purchased on these topics? One the one hand, I'd love to know what did you enjoyed most about these...




vi-control.net


----------



## Ashermusic

If the goal of the universal MIDI file is eduction, agreed Peter. If the goal of the universal MIDI file is to sound great with every library or combination, well that is going to involve some considerable additional work for the user. I would probably print out the parts in Logic and then replay them, using whatever articulations and MIDI ccs I have to make it sound right, now that I have the recipe.


----------



## Kevperry777

Congrats on a great idea realized! I for one look forward to working though these. 

The pro-sumer or ‘rookie’ demographic is huge (220,000 copies of Spitfire’s Discover out in the wild!) So I hope this flourishes for you Philip.


----------



## gives19

Kevinside said:


> There is one point in orchestration... It starts in your head and then you are aiming the conclusion of your imagination. Sure, Sample Libraries could bring you to the point, where you say... Thats it...
> But the truth is, that you arrange your tracks to get the best, the real result like an orchester...
> Today the possibilities are breathtaking... I think, there is today a library for every specific use...
> VSL,SFA,OT,PS... and more and more...
> 
> And its amazing to work with all these libraries...
> But I personally start with a piano and a piece of paper and a pencil... If you only compose for a specific library, cause in this case, it sounds real and wonderful and more... you are doing it, cause of the library, you are using...
> 
> And i say no, really no... Cause when i write down my composition on paper...there is it... What i do on the computer with all this virtual orchestras is another thing, but this little composition on paper is more worth, than any super duper excessiv sampling library out there...
> And you know what... I like to orchestrate with all the great sample libraries out there... but if its important, i give the notes to every player of a real orchester...And at last what can be more "REAL". than a real orchester with 1 2 Violins,Violas,Celli,Basses...the whole set of brass and woodwinds and percussion...
> I know, such sessions are very expensive, but if the budget of a TV,Film and more is there...No regret to use the real deal...
> 
> But I love Sample Libraries and i am consumer of all the great orchestral instruments recordings...
> 
> To have it at home as a guide for the next steps in production is wonderful....
> but remember if you are composing... and being a slave of a library... thats not the goal, i think...
> 
> End of communication
> 
> PS: This my personal opinion and does not reflect any other...Please no offence, cause of my personal thoughts; thanks



Totally correct! A loss of craft these days along with music by dictation as Elmer Bernstein said once! I just let it flow and forget trying to emulate the same old stuff, unless the client wants to copy something. Then it's about how much do you want to pay me to do that? LOL


----------



## RobbertZH

When I listen to the 6 examples of the recipes, it seems that the majority is on the epic/action side.
Cinematic music is however broader then only that.

What percentage of the recipes of the total product is mainly epic/action.
How would you describe the remaining percentage mood-wise?


----------



## shponglefan

RobbertZH said:


> When I listen to the 6 examples of the recipes, it seems that the majority is on the epic/action side.
> Cinematic music is however broader then only that.
> 
> What percentage of the recipes of the total product is mainly epic/action.
> How would you describe the remaining percentage mood-wise?



In giving a quick listen to all 21 (main examples), I'd only consider 5 or 6 of them to be truly epic or action-oriented. Although I suppose depending on how broad one classifies them, maybe a couple more might qualify.

Overall there is a good mixture of moods. Some are quite somber, some suspenseful, some lighthearted and joyful. And there are even different moods in some examples of a single recipe (since each recipe has two different examples provided).


----------



## RobbertZH

shponglefan said:


> Overall there is a good mixture of moods. Some are quite somber, some suspenseful, some lighthearted and joyful. And there are even different moods in some examples of a single recipe (since each recipe has two different examples provided).



Thanks you for your quick reply.
If it was mainly epic/action, I would not be interested, but as it much broader then that, I will buy it.


----------



## Sulblk

Thank you for this product! I am looking at certain instruments, or better yet, articulations, that I didn't quite understand where they fit (I am still quite the novice) I especially love the Chef's notes. I actually read those first prior to listen to the videos. This was wonderful for me. The mixture that I can hear (all be it I am on;y only Recipe (6) sounds of fantasy, mystery, and epic. You have caught my attention. Again, thank you.


----------



## PeterN

Ashermusic said:


> If the goal of the universal MIDI file is eduction, agreed Peter. If the goal of the universal MIDI file is to sound great with every library or combination, well that is going to involve some considerable additional work for the user. I would probably print out the parts in Logic and then replay them, using whatever articulations and MIDI ccs I have to make it sound right, now that I have the recipe.



Yeap Asher.

And btw, thanks for calling my idea fantastic.  JohnG didnt believe in it, but we are not always right.  Many concepts are about Breaking the Waves.


----------



## dzilizzi

Okay, I will share what I came up with from my first attempt with Recipe 1. I did not follow it perfectly. I used Wotan and Freya, which turned out to be a little annoying because they have different syllables so it sounds a bit weird. Strings and horns were Berlin. Piano was Pianoteq Steingraeber. EW Spaces II for reverb.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

dzilizzi said:


> I used Wotan and Freya, which turned out to be a little annoying because they have different syllables so it sounds a bit weird.



I used the same - and have the same annoyance with them. I know Philip doesn't like focusing on this info, but it was interesting to see he used Oceania in his demo.


----------



## cqd

Ok, just signed up.. I'll have a look over the next few days..one kind of preliminary gripe is I was kind of expecting more recipes for the 30 bucks.. I thought there would be 30, and Tbh I thought there should have been more..


----------



## mussnig

cqd said:


> Ok, just signed up.. I'll have a look over the next few days..one kind of preliminary gripe is I was kind of expecting more recipes for the 30 bucks.. I thought there would be 30, and Tbh I thought there should have been more..



When you go to the website you can clearly see that there are 21 recipes, or not?


----------



## cqd

mussnig said:


> When you go to the website you can clearly see that there are 21 recipes, or not?


Well, yeah, and I knew before buying it, but that was my thinking when it was announced..


----------



## mussnig

cqd said:


> Well, yeah, and I knew before buying it, but that was my thinking when it was announced..



Ah, yes, I totally understand. After watching the announcement video, for some reason, I also thought it would be 30 recipes.

But I still think that paying approx. 1.43 per recipe is by far not expensive. After all, you get a video, two examples, notes/explanations, scores and midi files.


----------



## Oliver

i am a professional trained musician and i have to say 30$ is a steal for that!
I wish i had something like this when i studied 30 years ago!


----------



## Markastellor

This was a no brainer for me. Don't be fooled by the simplicity. That's its strength. If Phillip had done a talking heads video this could have lasted a couple hours and it would have been far harder to comprehend...you might have thought you had a deal paying several times the price because of the length. This, however, is eloquent in its simplicity. Sunlight condensed through a lens to a smaller space burns much hotter. You lose nothing from the concise nature of this...in fact it is enhanced. Excellent use of pictures and sounds to make a very complex subject remarkably easy to understand.


----------



## FrozenIcicle

Watched some yourtube examples - In the condensed score youve combined low strings and sometimes strings, do you split them out in their separate staves? It doesn’t really help me orchestrate if ive gotta work out the 4 voices


----------



## Oliver

Markastellor said:


> This was a no brainer for me. Don't be fooled by the simplicity. That's its strength. If Phillip had done a talking heads video this could have lasted a couple hours and it would have been far harder to comprehend...you might have thought you had a deal paying several times the price because of the length. This, however, is eloquent in its simplicity. Sunlight condensed through a lens to a smaller space burns much hotter. You lose nothing from the concise nature of this...in fact it is enhanced. Excellent use of pictures and sounds to make a very complex subject remarkably easy to understand.



exactly my point too!


----------



## Toecutter

PeterN said:


> Btw guys. I demand royalties. Heres my post from 2018. (You may want to look at the replies too, and further communication, now when the concept is out).
> 
> *[I]PeterN[/I]*
> _*Senior Member*
> Oct 19, 2018_
> 
> I can say something no course has yet delivered, and that is extensive midi examples on different types of midi orchestration. By that I mean theres a midi file with the video, and you can add any of your own, say, oboe, cello and so on there, on the “oboe track”, once you have opened it, and then analyse different techniques of midi orchestration this way. With a tutorial video. The person in the tutorial video could use emberton Cello, fine, you can even use Logics own cello. And I mean someone experienced in midi orchestration, and taking on everything with different woodwind harmonies to string runs. With a fuckin midi file. Sorry. Sure, you can do it by reading notes too, but this is another way, midi orchestration, and would probably find plenty customers. I just ask, why, has nobody done this yet, bcs me thinks theres money in selling orchestration course like this.
> 
> _---_
> 
> 
> Well, I dont believe in that. Say that one cello is so different from another that u couldnt make a course like this. I can agree there will be differences, but not crucial ones. And e.g. a great legato sound wouldnt even be the main point, main point would be to give customer possibility to analyze a score in midi, not in notation. And just to make this clear, personally I can analyze scoresheets, while not being a master on this, it is as easy as learning the russian alphabet. Still, Id be keen to buy a course with midi files and analyze that way. And not talking about a grande star wars mockup, it could be as simple as “violin melody, woodwinds harmonic movement, bass pizzicato”. Or whatever. Needless to say I have built up a lot of these great techniques myself, also by analyzing scoresheets, since no midi course delievered this.
> 
> ----
> 
> 
> ....
> 
> 
> And so on
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What Courses Have You Purchased For Your Education?
> 
> 
> Hi all, I have a simple question for you today. When it comes to learning how to play/read music, music production, orchestration, arranging, mixing, etc., what online courses have you purchased on these topics? One the one hand, I'd love to know what did you enjoyed most about these...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net



"You're wrong" 

At least John's changed his mind https://vi-control.net/community/threads/orchestration-recipes-available-now.100151/post-4667466


----------



## Markrs

Only just started having a go at the first one and I can already see I will get lots of value for the $30 out of this!


----------



## PeterN

Toecutter said:


> "You're wrong"
> 
> At least John's changed his mind https://vi-control.net/community/threads/orchestration-recipes-available-now.100151/post-4667466



If you check the thread I proposed the idea to Verta. (Who I have a lot of respect for, just to make it clear). He didnt pick it up. Imagine he had sold orchestral recipes as addition to a course, say, "15USD for 5 midi files and short video on James Horner composition style". Then 10 USD for "the shimmering effect" in mid with short tut videoi. I mean, Im simplifying it a bit now - but he could have hit the Jackpot.

Sorry btw if this is disturbing the developers thread? Let me know if, and I delete it. No intention to disrespect, just chat hypotheses.


----------



## Eric G

cqd said:


> Ok, just signed up.. I'll have a look over the next few days..one kind of preliminary gripe is I was kind of expecting more recipes for the 30 bucks.. I thought there would be 30, and Tbh I thought there should have been more..


Are you serious? Tell me how much time and expertise it takes to build out all of that content for ONE recipe. The man would be good to be making minimum wage right now. Let's let him make some money so we can get more.


PeterN said:


> If you check the thread I proposed the idea to Verta. (Who I have a lot of respect for, just to make it clear). He didnt pick it up. Imagine he had sold orchestral recipes as addition to a course, say, "15USD for 5 midi files and short video on James Horner composition style". Then 10 USD for "the shimmering effect" in mid with short tut videoi. I mean, Im simplifying it a bit now - but he could have hit the Jackpot.
> 
> Sorry btw if this is disturbing the developers thread? Let me know if, and I delete it. No intention to disrespect, just chat hypotheses.



Yeah sorry Peter, but this man executed his idea perfectly at the right time and frankly I want to keep this going so let's try to lower the possibility for negativity and let him make some money. And I would advise you to look at his model and go for it - IN A SEPARATE THREAD.

I mean we have people complaining about this costing $30, or they want PDFs or video downloads. What a joke at this price and insulting for those of us that truly know and appreciate the amount of time he has put into the content.


----------



## PeterN

Eric G said:


> Are you serious? Tell me how much time and expertise it takes to build out all of that content for ONE recipe. The man would be good to be making minimum wage right now. Let's let him make some money so we can get more.
> 
> 
> Yeah sorry Peter, but this man executed his idea perfectly at the right time and frankly I want to keep this going so let's try to lower the possibility for negativity and let him make some money. And I would advise you to look at his model and go for it - IN A SEPARATE THREAD.
> 
> I mean we have people complaining about this costing $30, or they want PDFs or video downloads. What a joke at this price and insulting for those of us that truly know and appreciate the amount of time he has put into the content.



Its cool - I love the concept. He deserves most of the attention - for sure. *But theres no negativity, just the general chit-chat. *The usual GOSSIP ya know.

Price is great too, now who can complain. This type of stuff was needed, and it will develop to wonderful things. Woohooo....

Edit. And btw Ive been waiting for this stuff for 5 years, thats why you see me around a lot - Im excited. It was about fu*kin time someone did this!  Respect, whoever it is. Salute!


----------



## shponglefan

FrozenIcicle said:


> Watched some yourtube examples - In the condensed score youve combined low strings and sometimes strings, do you split them out in their separate staves? It doesn’t really help me orchestrate if ive gotta work out the 4 voices



The included scores have everything split into individual staves per instrument.


----------



## crossrootsdoc

dzilizzi said:


> Okay, I will share what I came up with from my first attempt with Recipe 1. I did not follow it perfectly. I used Wotan and Freya, which turned out to be a little annoying because they have different syllables so it sounds a bit weird. Strings and horns were Berlin. Piano was Pianoteq Steingraeber. EW Spaces II for reverb.


I actually quite like it. Well done.


----------



## dzilizzi

crossrootsdoc said:


> I actually quite like it. Well done.


Thank you. It was fun.


----------



## hsindermann

Just got this as well. Checked out a couple of recipes already, and I can say this is awesome - great value, lots of opportunity to learn - and I hope this will help to stop me writing in the same way all the time. 

Already hoping for parts 2 to 24...


----------



## Eric G

PeterN said:


> Its cool - I love the concept. He deserves most of the attention - for sure. *But theres no negativity, just the general chit-chat. *The usual GOSSIP ya know.
> 
> Price is great too, now who can complain. This type of stuff was needed, and it will develop to wonderful things. Woohooo....
> 
> Edit. And btw Ive been waiting for this stuff for 5 years, thats why you see me around a lot - Im excited. It was about fu*kin time someone did this!  Respect, whoever it is. Salute!


All good Peter. Didn't mean to imply you were being negative. I just want to see more of this stuff.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

If anything, this is underpriced for what Philip gives us - extremely well produced video demonstration of not one but two pieces, a very thorough and well-written companion guide, and the MIDI files. Thank you Philip for the generosity and the immense amount of effort and hard work!


----------



## Markrs

ALittleNightMusic said:


> If anything, this is underpriced for what Philip gives us - extremely well produced video demonstration of not one but two pieces, a very thorough and well-written companion guide, and the MIDI files. Thank you Philip for the generosity and the immense amount of effort and hard work!


Completely agree, top value purchase!


----------



## markit

Agree with everyone here on the price.

It’s very generous considering how much time he invested in making this and the level of knowledge needed.

I’m happy to see so many people already bought this and hoping for future releases!


----------



## YaniDee

markit said:


> Agree with everyone here on the price.


I'm ok with the price..If you pay in Canadian funds Paypal magically turns 30$ into 40$...


----------



## PhilipJohnston

Update: Lots of posts here asking for recipe names to be added. All done, take a look


----------



## ennbr

Thanks time to rename all of the projects on my end from Recipe xx to new names they look quite descriptive


----------



## SlHarder

Now I'm just going to get hungry every time I sit down at my keyboard.


----------



## Gingerbread

PhilipJohnston said:


> Update: Lots of posts here asking for recipe names to be added. All done, take a look


This is just my opinion, so take with a grain of salt the size of Utah.

The culinary names are fun, but as I see it, the strength of the recipes is that they be practical and useful. If I'm making some music, and I'm needing something, say, _mysterious_, I want to be able to quickly look through the list of recipes, and find one that best matches the mood or feel I'm going for. Having names that emphasize the feel or emotion of the orchestral effect would be the most useful for me.

At some point, once there are many, many recipes, it might be worthwhile to eventually group them by style or mood.


----------



## PhilipJohnston

Gingerbread said:


> This is just my opinion, so take with a grain of salt the size of Utah.
> 
> The culinary names are fun, but as I see it, the strength of the recipes is that they be practical and useful. If I'm making some music, and I'm needing something, say, _mysterious_, I want to be able to quickly look through the list of recipes, and find one that best matches the mood or feel I'm going for. Having names that emphasize the feel or emotion of the orchestral effect would be the most useful for me.
> 
> At some point, once there are many, many recipes, it might be worthwhile to eventually group them by style or mood.



Yes, I'm actually reworking these names now - less esoterically French cuisine, more musically informative. Numbers are still at the start of each title, for those who prefer to reference that way.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

PhilipJohnston said:


> Yes, I'm actually reworking these names now - less esoterically French cuisine, more musically informative. Numbers are still at the start of each title, for those who prefer to reference that way.



Full points for creativity though


----------



## PhilipJohnston

I shouldn't be allowed to edit while I'm hungry


----------



## ennbr

Good thing I didn't change the names in my project file yet


----------



## Akarin

PhilipJohnston said:


> I shouldn't be allowed to edit while I'm hungry



What you have done here is absolutely fantastic! I've also found another use for your recipes: balancing my template a little bit better.


----------



## Max Bonsi

Bought it yesterday...
I'm ENTIRELY IN LOVE!

Great idea, the site and the fruition are top notch.
Really useful for transcribing, for starting new tracks, experimenting and balancing templates, reading scores, importing midi...
All this for 30$ (26 euros)?!
Could we ask for more? I don't think, really

And it's just the beginning, would be very very interesting if we all could be able to share more recipes also here in this forum, who knows...

Highly recommended


Max


----------



## YaniDee

It's not often you find a lot of replies suggesting that the price of something should be raised!
That aside, I bought the course, and have watched a few lessons and opened them up in Cubase..good way to also find out the capabilities / limitations of your libraries. But I think that we all agree that to start cooking, you also need the harmonic /melodic "meat" to go with the spicing and presentation..But it's an orchestration course, not a harmony course.


----------



## NekujaK

YaniDee said:


> But I think that we all agree that to start cooking, you also need the harmonic /melodic "meat" to go with the spicing and presentation..


That's correct. These are "orchestration" recipes, not "composition" recipes. We need to bring our own harmonic and melodic ideas to the table first


----------



## Eric G

PhilipJohnston said:


> Yes, I'm actually reworking these names now - less esoterically French cuisine, more musically informative. Numbers are still at the start of each title, for those who prefer to reference that way.


Wow. Just saw all the names. Even more quality time put in. The value keeps going up.


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Hi Phillip, 

I am inclined to think you have made this too cheap for the quality on offer - But not complaining  

How about a Two Tier price - You could charge more for a Downloadable version of the PDFs + Videos ?

Just a thought !


----------



## PhilipJohnston

Paul Jelfs said:


> Hi Phillip,
> 
> I am inclined to think you have made this too cheap for the quality on offer - But not complaining
> 
> How about a Two Tier price - You could charge more for a Downloadable version of the PDFs + Videos ?
> 
> Just a thought !


This question keeps coming up, has got me thinking—maybe it might be worth me bundling all the recipes into a single desk reference book...would contain all the chef's notes, examples and scores for the entire collection, Amazon would deliver it, all shiny and ready to use, so it can sit on composer's desks. 

Not as a replacement for the existing recipes, but a convenient offline companion reference. 

Thoughts?


----------



## Haakond

Very nice idea! Instant buy


----------



## Markrs

PhilipJohnston said:


> This question keeps coming up, has got me thinking—maybe it might be worth me bundling all the recipes into a single desk reference book...would contain all the chef's notes, examples and scores for the entire collection, Amazon would deliver it, all shiny and ready to use, so it can sit on composer's desks.
> 
> Not as a replacement for the existing recipes, but a convenient offline companion reference.
> 
> Thoughts?


That does sound like a good idea, as you say not a replacement but a complement to this set of recipes, ideal as a reference book.


----------



## Ryan Lafford

Would also like to chime in and say that being able to download the material would be GREATLY appreciated! I'm in a rural canadian area where internet speed varies from 1MBS/down all the way down to literally now working at all. Being able to download the PDFs / Videos would allow me to always have access to the material and not have my horrid connection getting in the way


----------



## dadadave

just wanted to chime in as a happy hobbyist customer. This is a really well thought-out and well-executed learning resource, from the bite-sized lessons, to the really helpful chef's notes that make it a lot more meaningful than "just" a collection of stuff that works.

I'm sure people have suggested it before (I haven't read all 12 pages of this thread), but two things that would be great would be:

-distinctive names (that ideally give a clue about what the recipe is about)
-maybe some categories, or even better, a tagging system (e.g. woodwinds, romantic, heroic)

Looking forward to hopefully lots more recipe collections! (maybe themed ones?)

Edit: Just saw the names have already been implemented


----------



## muziksculp

Hi @PhilipJohnston ,

You have made such a useful library of orchestration recipes, I got VOL. 1, and am enjoying it a lot, learning some quite interesting orchestration ideas, and getting ideas of my own.

This is a revolutionary, modern method to learn orchestration, so much more fun, and helpful than the old fashion orchestration text books I have read, they are super dry, and get boring super fast.

Thank You so much for making Orchestration Recipes a reality, it will surely be a helpful learning tool for many composers, and I look forward to more Volumes in the future.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## SlHarder

PhilipJohnston said:


> bundling all the recipes into a single desk reference book


I'm a 70yo midi hobbyist. I have no printed books at my workstation.

OrchestrationRecipes is an excellent melding of computer based educational techniques. I'd like you to pour your ongoing creative efforts into more and varied content that utilize the web based model.

I could see a benefit for some subscribers in providing materials that can be used offlline but you need to protect your content and income stream.

But for me a printed book is a bridge too far.


----------



## PeterN

muziksculp said:


> Hi @PhilipJohnston ,
> 
> You have made such a useful library of orchestration recipes, I got VOL. 1, and am enjoying it a lot, learning some quite interesting orchestration ideas, and getting ideas of my own.
> 
> This is a revolutionary, modern method to learn orchestration, so much more fun, and helpful than the old fashion orchestration text books I have read, they are super dry, and get boring super fast.
> 
> Thank You so much for making Orchestration Recipes a reality, it will surely be a helpful learning tool for many composers, and I look forward to more Volumes in the future.
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp



Revolutionary is the right word, bcs this was one of last holds of old school composers. First we took their fancy "composer" schools, then they tried to hold on to their dusty theory books.

The wall is broken. 

*Viva la revolución! Rimsky-Korsakov is dead.*


----------



## eakwarren

SlHarder said:


> I'd like you to pour your ongoing creative efforts into more and varied content that utilize the web based model.



I second this suggestion. Honestly, the real value for me comes from the notes, scores, audio examples, and midi for 2 variations. I find the videos to be less valuable due to the slower-paced branding elements which consume time without being information rich, but I understand why they’re included. Also, I think anyone doing this knows the basics of recording parts in their DAW. Perhaps @PhilipJohnston might consider discussing the details he provides in the notes in future videos.

I’ve downloaded/screenshot the content I describe above and organized it in my digital notebook. (Apple Notes in my case.) It makes it easy to browse, search, and study on all my devices which increases engagement and synthesis. There are ways to access the content offline and outside the interface it’s presented in, it just depends on how invested one is in obtaining it. That said, all content creators deserve to reap the benefits of their labor, and I understand concern over piracy. Perhaps @PhilipJohnston could investigate providing assets watermarked with the subscriber’s email address? I know this is possible with pdf.

I’ve studied the usual Adler, Piston, Rimsky-Korsakov books and find this much more engaging. However, orchestration resources like this (or Sonuscore’s TOC2 presets, etc.) still lack consideration of the larger forms available to the composer and how to connect these discrete recipes together into a coherent whole. I’d value instruction on dovetailing, pyramiding, planing, outlining, interlocking and bracketing, sandwiching, static blurring, etc. Like this:




To put it another way, I’ve got many “8 bar loop“ projects cluttering my drive. I need more March, Minuet, Rondo, Binary, Ternary, and Sonata projects. Or to use the analogy of this series, how do I connect these recipes to create a seven course feast? Coda of con sord creme brûlée with light horn glaze anyone? 

Fantastic work @PhilipJohnston! Looking forward to the future!


----------



## sylent01

PhilipJohnston said:


> This question keeps coming up, has got me thinking—maybe it might be worth me bundling all the recipes into a single desk reference book...would contain all the chef's notes, examples and scores for the entire collection, Amazon would deliver it, all shiny and ready to use, so it can sit on composer's desks.
> 
> Not as a replacement for the existing recipes, but a convenient offline companion reference.
> 
> Thoughts?



Would buy..


----------



## NekujaK

PhilipJohnston said:


> This question keeps coming up, has got me thinking—maybe it might be worth me bundling all the recipes into a single desk reference book...would contain all the chef's notes, examples and scores for the entire collection, Amazon would deliver it, all shiny and ready to use, so it can sit on composer's desks.
> 
> Not as a replacement for the existing recipes, but a convenient offline companion reference.
> 
> Thoughts?


Personally, not something I'd be interested in, as I try to avoid acquiring "physical stuff" (yes, I know... when the big nuclear magnetic pulse hits, I'll end up having nothing). But this is a great idea that I think would appeal to lots of people. Plus having something on offer thru Amazon can potentially gain exposure to a wider audience.


----------



## dzilizzi

But a "Desk Reference" could be a Kindle version. I wouldn't mind having a recipe "book."


----------



## hsindermann

A book sounds like a great idea - I'd be in. But I guess would need some more recipes to make it book-sized. 

Btw, anyone else having problems with the audio loading speed? All videos load and play fine, but the audio is loading sooo slowly (20 kb/s) that it almost never is quick enough to actually play the audio.


----------



## YaniDee

NekujaK said:


> I try to avoid acquiring "physical stuff" (yes, I know... when the big nuclear magnetic pulse hits, I'll end up having nothing).


Thank god I have my acoustic guitar and physical books when the power goes out!


----------



## PhilipJohnston

Hello everyone—I had some reports of time signatures not rendering properly in the on-screen scores, have fixed and reuploaded. All should be displaying correctly now.

You can also *download the score *for any recipe, or *incipits* of any individual part—just right click on the score and save. The file should be ready to import straight into Word, just drag the handles to resize once it's in. (They will scale smoothly to any size).


----------



## YaniDee

PhilipJohnston said:


> You can also *download the score *for any recipe


SVG (scalable vector graphics)? Not a very common file type..My version of Word can't open it..


----------



## wbacer

YaniDee said:


> SVG (scalable vector graphics)? Not a very common file type..My version of Word can't open it..





YaniDee said:


> SVG (scalable vector graphics)? Not a very common file type..My version of Word can't open it..


I took a screen shot of each score and then drag and dropped the screen shot file into Word.
On my Mac I used Command shift 4, on my PC a used a free program called Snipping Tool. Once in Word, I resized the pic of the score to whatever best fit. I now have one Word doc with all 42 scores. This was before I realized that I could save each score individually and drag and drop those files into Word. Either way works. It's great having all the scores in one Word doc as I've also typed in some text below each score to help me remember the essence of the scores.


----------



## YaniDee

wbacer said:


> I took a screen shot of each score and then drag and dropped the screen shot file into Word.


I actually did something similar took screen shots, and copied/pasted text into Word..I had to format the text and crop the images in a Grfx program, so that it all fit nicely..I spent over an hour on the first 6 recipes! Frankly, why put us through that, when a simple downloadable Pdf would do the job?


----------



## NekujaK

PhilipJohnston said:


> Hello everyone—I had some reports of time signatures not rendering properly in the on-screen scores, have fixed and reuploaded. All should be displaying correctly now.


Still seeing glitches on multiple scores - one example:











Using Firefox, Win 10.


----------



## PhilipJohnston

NekujaK said:


> Still seeing glitches on multiple scores - one example:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Using Firefox, Win 10.


 
Can you send me through the numbers of the affected recipes? Very keen to kill this bug very dead. Those triplets look like they were composed on Mars.


----------



## PhilipJohnston

PhilipJohnston said:


> Can you send me through the numbers of the affected recipes? Very keen to kill this bug very dead. Those triplets look like they were composed on Mars.


Actually, I've just figured out what's gone wrong. Sorting it now, don't worry about the list. There's a nerdy fix which I'll share later for anybody who uses Dorico to create high res scores for the web. (I love Dorico, it's not their fault)


----------



## PhilipJohnston

OK, sorted. *Should be seeing pristine, hi-res scores again now*, free from Martian artefacts. 

Many thanks to those to those who made me aware of this. Bug was affecting numbers—time signatures, tuplets—if anyone needs to use Dorico to produce vector graphic web scores, message me for the fix I used (you need Illustrator).


----------



## Ben

PhilipJohnston said:


> if anyone needs to use Dorico to produce vector graphic web scores, message me for the fix I used (you need Illustrator).


You can also use the OpenSource tool Inkscape for this ("Object to Path"). Just two weeks ago I had to fix the same issue as well in one of the projects I'm working on.



wbacer said:


> I took a screen shot of each score and then drag and dropped the screen shot file into Word.


You can also directly insert a svg file into Word. It will stay sharp and will result in a smaller file size compared to the Screenshots


----------



## Batrawi

Admit it! Those of you who pressed "*download the score*" hoping to download while you haven't actually subscribed


----------



## Gingerbread

PeterN said:


> Would you mind Philip sharing where and how you picked up this idea? I proposed something like this two years ago, bcs I think this stuff is so obvious it should be out - and yet it wasnt. Just unbelievable. Did you make these recipes yourself, and then maybe thought why not do business with them? Or did you just see the huge hole here in the market here?
> 
> Just asking out of curiosity. Im glad this finally happened bcs it will develop to breakthrough stuff.


Just for the record, Mattia Chiappa has been doing essentially the same thing on his YouTube Channel for a while now, just in video form rather than a paid website subscription.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Gingerbread said:


> Just for the record, Mattia Chiappa has been doing essentially the same thing on his YouTube Channel for a while now, just in video form rather than a paid website subscription.



While I think Mattia is great and I even supported him on Patreon, I do think the way Philip presents the information is more accessible and digestible...at least for me.


----------



## Markrs

Gingerbread said:


> Just for the record, Mattia Chiappa has been doing essentially the same thing on his YouTube Channel for a while now, just in video form rather than a paid website subscription.


I see this as a positive as you have 2 people doing something similar in different ways. 

Also as this is a tier 1 commercial thread, if we wanted to discuss alternatives it would be polite to use a separate thread


----------



## damcry

ALittleNightMusic said:


> While I think Mattia is great and I even supported him on Patreon, I do think the way Philip presents the information is more accessible and digestible...at least for me.


I’m quite novice in orchestration, and I totally agree


----------



## shponglefan

ALittleNightMusic said:


> While I think Mattia is great and I even supported him on Patreon, I do think the way Philip presents the information is more accessible and digestible...at least for me.



Agreed.

I know some people are fixating on the idea behind this, but often it's not the idea that matters; it's the execution that counts.

The execution here is great. Everything is presented in a clear, concise and professional manner.


----------



## dzilizzi

shponglefan said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I know some people are fixating on the idea behind this, but often it's not the idea that matters; it's the execution that counts.
> 
> The execution here is great. Everything is presented in a clear, concise and professional manner.


It is definitely easy to follow.


----------



## Gingerbread

Markrs said:


> I see this as a positive as you have 2 people doing something similar in different ways.
> 
> Also as this is a tier 1 commercial thread, if we wanted to discuss alternatives it would be polite to use a separate thread


Absolutely, and the approach that Orchestration Recipes is taking is brilliant. I'm a very happy subscriber to Orchestration Recipes!

As others said, it always comes down to the execution of the idea, rather than the idea itself.


----------



## dzilizzi

Though they do make me a little hungry now.


----------



## robcs

Gingerbread said:


> Just for the record, Mattia Chiappa has been doing essentially the same thing on his YouTube Channel for a while now, just in video form rather than a paid website subscription.


Mattia's videos are great and I watch each new episode with excitement and intrigue, but it is actually a subscription model: if you want to download the scores, you have to support his Patreon, which is an open-ended monthly fee.

Philip's offer, on the other hand, is a one-off payment for which you get the videos, the midi files, and the scores. 

Neither model is better or worse, neither is more or less 'fair'. I personally think that $30 is a great price for what Phil has provided


----------



## jbuhler

I picked this up to study for its pedagogical approach. Besides these neat recipes for orchestration Phil has also devised a neat replicable formula for presenting the recipes.


----------



## PhilipJohnston

Hello everyone

Following a number of requests, over the next few days I'll be adding *Desk Reference versions* to each recipe—these are PDFs that contain scores and Chef's notes for offline viewing. Print them out, keep them handy as you compose.

You can already check out an example in the downloads section of Recipe 1, the rest to follow shortly.

Philip


----------



## ennbr

Thank you Philip I started to copy and paste them last night into Pages


----------



## Gingerbread

PhilipJohnston said:


> Hello everyone
> 
> Following a number of requests, over the next few days I'll be adding *Desk Reference versions* to each recipe—these are PDFs that contain scores and Chef's notes for offline viewing. Print them out, keep them handy as you compose.
> 
> You can already check out an example in the downloads section of Recipe 1, the rest to follow shortly.
> 
> Philip


Fantastic, thank you!


----------



## mohsohsenshi

This is an absolutely great approach for orchestration study, I really like the concept of your recipes!

I'll take it, big thanks to you Phil！


----------



## Breezy

Great idea and great price point. Don't know that I would pay more than that though. Thanks. Going over to purchase now


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

@PhilipJohnston You've got a great narrator voice so hopefully for future videos, you'll add some voice over to them to explain some of your thinking for each step (similar to the chef notes - just in the video too).


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Also, if possible, could you please put a login link on your main homepage? Easier to remember that URL than the thinkific one.


----------



## damcry

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Also, if possible, could you please put a login link on your main homepage? Easier to remember that URL than the thinkific one.


+1


----------



## dflood

This is such a great concept and the execution is brilliant for a hobbyist like myself with a limited attention span, who is not new to music, but new to orchestration. What I find particularly useful is trying to emulate the recipes and the overall sound using the tools I already have. Aside from learning about some great orchestration chops, it helps me to realize the value of my existing libraries as well as highlighting where there might be some deficiencies. Thanks so much for creating this. It gets my vote for product of the year!


----------



## Pappaus

dflood said:


> This is such a great concept and the execution is brilliant for a hobbyist like myself with a limited attention span, who is not new to music, but new to orchestration. What I find particularly useful is trying to emulate the recipes and the overall sound using the tools I already have. Aside from learning about some great orchestration chops, it helps me to realize the value of my existing libraries as well as highlighting where there might be some deficiencies. Thanks so much for creating this. It gets my vote for product of the year!


+1. On every point from another hobbyist with an attention span that shortens by the day.


----------



## fourier

@PhilipJohnston: Thank you for giving a preview of the setup on your page. I think, in particular for us hobbyist, this is a missing piece of the puzzle and offers small, fun educational exercises to do in our (often) limited spare time.

This is likely quite subjective - but I've always been very competitive in sports and gaming, and to me being presented with challenges to overcome is such a motivational booster. The gaming industry has always thought of this by unlocking further progress, but the last couple of decades they have also really embraced the reward-aspect. If the recipes are - somewhat objectively - of different difficulty, I think introducing some sort of barometer for this can be inspiring. I also think the smallest form of reward, like being able to "tick off" a recipe as for instance "understood", can be of help. Lastly, perhaps a summary, i.e. some small bullet points, of what the recipe should've taught you can be stimulating?

I have really no idea if these suggestions are in the ballpark of interest to the community or you. I've had the pleasure and fortune of teaching kids/students in elementary school, middle school, high school and at university level, and I've found that this sensation of achievement combined with recognizing the different individual needs have been fruitful.

I look forward to testing out the recipes in the new year!

Edit: Also, as someone that has been stuck at home office with enormous amounts of screen time the last nine months, I have everything possible in "dark mode", including web pages in google Chrome. While the text in the steps works great, the example scores are quite hard to see clearly (at least with my vision). If it's a quick fix, it would be nice that they are a bit more visible


----------



## Eric G

PhilipJohnston said:


> Hello everyone
> 
> Following a number of requests, over the next few days I'll be adding *Desk Reference versions* to each recipe—these are PDFs that contain scores and Chef's notes for offline viewing. Print them out, keep them handy as you compose.
> 
> You can already check out an example in the downloads section of Recipe 1, the rest to follow shortly.
> 
> Philip


Now hold on Phillip, this is getting a little ridiculous. The price to value ratio is way off the charts. 

Now that you have your process sorted, you can make some more money whenever you are ready. I am waiting with my wallet open.


----------



## Beans

I recently picked up VEPro and have been setting up a new template. The midi files here have been saving me tons of time testing out my routing and instrument balancing! 

Far easier than trying to rip something out of an old pre-VEPro project of my own. The "no CCs touched" blank slate has really helped keep things moving.


----------



## lgmcben

Suggestion for your next product: videogame music recipes :D


----------



## Antkn33

Great stuff man really enjoy it!


----------



## rmak

Wow everyone loves this course. Has anyone written any of their own compositions with this framework since it came out around end of Nov? It seems like a very engaging way to learn orchestration as opposed to studying things in a book. I think I heard of score club also, but it looks like their approach more academic/theory heavy.

I grew up taking piano lesson, so I have music theory knowledge. But not as familiar with orchestration. Will this course be a good fit?

I also read that the techniques taught can potentially be applied to other genres? Has anyone tried to apply it in other genres?

Trying to get a feel for if the approach being offered by orchestration recipes is finding their way in anybody's daily approach to writing. Maybe it is too soon to say. I am trying to get a better understanding how the recipes come to "live in your head" through practice.


----------



## Everratic

I haven't followed any of the exercises, but I learned so much from seeing how the compositions are constructed, and more importantly, the information is presented so well that I can easily recall and apply the knowledge while I'm composing.


----------



## lgmcben

This is a great course for hobbyist. I bought this course few weeks ago but haven't really work on any of it until last night. This is what I came up with recipe #2 within 1-2 hours of studying:

View attachment Recipe02_Mixdown.mp3


Note:
This 7 seconds audio file means nothing to experienced composers but it's a great achievement already for me.

Background:
I'm a software engineer with very limited musical education. Can't play any instrument either. I have a lot of videogame music ideas in my head but always struggle to put them into a DAW.

This is my personal opinion:
I think for us hobbyist who work full-time in a non-music fields, opening a DAW after a long day of work can be very tiresome. And when you actually muster your strength to sit in front of a DAW, often times you achieve crappy results. (even though you have that super epic music playing in your head)

For my job it's even worse because I have to stare at the screen reading code all day already.

I've taken few online courses about music composition. While most of them are great courses, none of them really offer you what this course does elegantly: It gives you confidence and boost your morale.

This course guides you to actually sit down and create something that sounds great with your own hands.

Tips: I found it easier to load up the MIDI file provided at the end of each lecture and study them along with course notes before trying to cook your own.


----------



## jules

Did anyone renamed the recipes ? For later / on purpose recall i found it more practical to give them names in relation with earing feelings, like : fear, misty morning, car/plane chase, etc


----------



## ChristianM

Very good job Philipp, very very  
Thanks!


----------



## widescreen

lgmcben said:


> This is a great course for hobbyist. I bought this course few weeks ago but haven't really work on any of it until last night. This is what I came up with recipe #2 within 1-2 hours of studying:
> 
> View attachment Recipe02_Mixdown.mp3
> 
> 
> Note:
> This 7 seconds audio file means nothing to experienced composers but it's a great achievement already for me.
> 
> Background:
> I'm a software engineer with very limited musical education. Can't play any instrument either. I have a lot of videogame music ideas in my head but always struggle to put them into a DAW.
> 
> This is my personal opinion:
> I think for us hobbyist who work full-time in a non-music fields, opening a DAW after a long day of work can be very tiresome. And when you actually muster your strength to sit in front of a DAW, often times you achieve crappy results. (even though you have that super epic music playing in your head)
> 
> For my job it's even worse because I have to stare at the screen reading code all day already.
> 
> I've taken few online courses about music composition. While most of them are great courses, none of them really offer you what this course does elegantly: It gives you confidence and boost your morale.
> 
> This course guides you to actually sit down and create something that sounds great with your own hands.
> 
> Tips: I found it easier to load up the MIDI file provided at the end of each lecture and study them along with course notes before trying to cook your own.


Agree 100% as I am also starring 95% of my time on a screen everyday, doing a 100% job (IT administration/engineering) and a 25-50% side job as a freelancer.
And not to forget: having a family... 

So courses with small and compressed portions of composing food, plated as here, are ideal. And if so well presented, I cannot wait for the next order, garçon.


----------



## rmak

lgmcben said:


> This is a great course for hobbyist. I bought this course few weeks ago but haven't really work on any of it until last night. This is what I came up with recipe #2 within 1-2 hours of studying:
> 
> View attachment Recipe02_Mixdown.mp3
> 
> 
> Note:
> This 7 seconds audio file means nothing to experienced composers but it's a great achievement already for me.
> 
> Background:
> I'm a software engineer with very limited musical education. Can't play any instrument either. I have a lot of videogame music ideas in my head but always struggle to put them into a DAW.
> 
> This is my personal opinion:
> I think for us hobbyist who work full-time in a non-music fields, opening a DAW after a long day of work can be very tiresome. And when you actually muster your strength to sit in front of a DAW, often times you achieve crappy results. (even though you have that super epic music playing in your head)
> 
> For my job it's even worse because I have to stare at the screen reading code all day already.
> 
> I've taken few online courses about music composition. While most of them are great courses, none of them really offer you what this course does elegantly: It gives you confidence and boost your morale.
> 
> This course guides you to actually sit down and create something that sounds great with your own hands.
> 
> Tips: I found it easier to load up the MIDI file provided at the end of each lecture and study them along with course notes before trying to cook your own.


that's great to hear. It's always nice to find something that offers structure and helps you create.


----------



## rmak

Are there any experienced composers that are using this as a tool to help them write?


----------



## shponglefan

rmak said:


> I grew up taking piano lesson, so I have music theory knowledge. But not as familiar with orchestration. Will this course be a good fit?



Orchestration Recipes isn't a really course per se. It's a series of examples of instrumentation/orchestration designed to achieve a specific result.

I think it could be interesting supplementary content to a proper course on orchestration, but it's definitely not a substitute for it.

That said, I'd still recommend Orchestral Recipes since there isn't much like it out there and the price is certainly worth it for the examples it provides.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

A more useful addition would be a recipe on how to transition between two recipes

Ofcourse you couldn't nail every combination but 1 lighter orchestration to 1 or 2 heavier ones and vice versa, since the logical transition would be into contrasting passages


----------



## bvaughn0402

jules said:


> Did anyone renamed the recipes ? For later / on purpose recall i found it more practical to give them names in relation with earing feelings, like : fear, misty morning, car/plane chase, etc



Yes, that would be my one current suggestion ... while the "food" names are fun ... I would much prefer more "feeling" names. Like adventure, mysterious, eerie, sad, romantic, ....


----------



## tc9000

I really like this concept - I love the hands-on nature of it. I buy libraries and am somehow surprised that my writing hasn't improved! HAHA 

For me this is spot on!


----------



## ProfoundSilence

bvaughn0402 said:


> Yes, that would be my one current suggestion ... while the "food" names are fun ... I would much prefer more "feeling" names. Like adventure, mysterious, eerie, sad, romantic, ....


Coincidentally some of these can have different context purely based in the harmonic content so it's hard to pin down

I imagine that's why he didn't name the that way.


----------



## bvaughn0402

ProfoundSilence said:


> Coincidentally some of these can have different context purely based in the harmonic content so it's hard to pin down
> 
> I imagine that's why he didn't name the that way.



Ah, well that makes sense.


----------



## jules

ProfoundSilence said:


> Coincidentally some of these can have different context purely based in the harmonic content so it's hard to pin down
> 
> I imagine that's why he didn't name the that way.


That’s true, as seen in second examples of some recipes. But renaming helps a bit, in a first time, as the funny cooking names doesn’t help to pick them up...


----------



## ChristianM

jules said:


> That’s true, as seen in second examples of some recipes. But renaming helps a bit, in a first time, as the funny cooking names doesn’t help to pick them up...


… and nothing for vegetarian !!


----------



## jules

ChristianM said:


> … and nothing for vegetarian !!


Well, maybe there's a market :


----------



## PhilipJohnston

ChristianM said:


> … and nothing for vegetarian !!


Not so. Oboe is in fact a vegetable, and not, as many mistakenly assume, poultry.


----------



## davidson

Most satisfying $30 I've spent in a long time. I hope this project goes from strength to strength


----------



## SupremeFist

This is such a brilliant idea. Bought!


----------



## cqd

ProfoundSilence said:


> A more useful addition would be a recipe on how to transition between two recipes
> 
> Ofcourse you couldn't nail every combination but 1 lighter orchestration to 1 or 2 heavier ones and vice versa, since the logical transition would be into contrasting passages


This is what I think this needs alright..
Kind of mini menus.. this recipe can lead into this one or this one, which can lead into that one..

Yeah, I know I'm in minority but I think it's expensive for what it is..


----------



## rmak

cqd said:


> This is what I think this needs alright..
> Kind of mini menus.. this recipe can lead into this one or this one, which can lead into that one..
> 
> Yeah, I know I'm in minority but I think it's expensive for what it is..



Most important to me is application of recipes when writing. I haven t heard or read much examples yet, but maybe it is too early to see how people are using it.


----------



## SupremeFist

I plan to use it simply to learn my way around the modern libraries I have now, since the last time I was regularly doing sampled orchestral scores for docs and shorts was 15 years ago with EWQLSO Gold. Here's a quick bash on Recipe 1 after just listening to the audio example once. Happy new year all!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

cqd said:


> Yeah, I know I'm in minority but I think it's expensive for what it is..


You must be joking...


----------



## Mattia Chiappa

robcs said:


> Mattia's videos are great and I watch each new episode with excitement and intrigue, but it is actually a subscription model: if you want to download the scores, you have to support his Patreon, which is an open-ended monthly fee.


I don't mean divert the focus of this thread from what it really is about but since this has been brought up I feel like I need to correct your statement which is incorrect.

My patreon goes way beyond the 10 orchestration techniques series, I post on a weekly basis all sorts of contents in many different forms. If you want to grab the scores for what I do you can easily grab a screen shoot and save of PDFs. Super easy and free

Patreon is a platform that allows support for content creators people like, who then offer a little something in return, but the main product still happens outside patreon, often times on YouTube. It is indeed a subscription model in theory, but not really. If you just wanna grab the stuff but don't really care about supporting some random dude you just found on the internet, you're welcome to do so. You can sign up once for £5, download everything I ever did and then leave. I'm quite open about this because this is not really what the platform is designed for.

This is in no way a form of self promotion but your statement is very much incorrect and I don't want that to mislead people.

If this post is inappropriate, it can be removed. I really do not mean any harm to anyone.

Matt


----------



## robcs

Mattia Chiappa said:


> I don't mean divert the focus of this thread from what it really is about but since this has been brought up I feel like I need to correct your statement which is incorrect.
> 
> My patreon goes way beyond the 10 orchestration techniques series, I post on a weekly basis all sorts of contents in many different forms. If you want to grab the scores for what I do you can easily grab a screen shoot and save of PDFs. Super easy and free
> 
> Patreon is a platform that allows support for content creators people like, who then offer a little something in return, but the main product still happens outside patreon, often times on YouTube. It is indeed a subscription model in theory, but not really. If you just wanna grab the stuff but don't really care about supporting some random dude you just found on the internet, you're welcome to do so. You can sign up once for £5, download everything I ever did and then leave. I'm quite open about this because this is not really what the platform is designed for.
> 
> This is in no way a form of self promotion but your statement is very much incorrect and I don't want that to mislead people.
> 
> If this post is inappropriate, it can be removed. I really do not mean any harm to anyone.
> 
> Matt


Sorry if I hit a nerve. Like I said, I love your content too. I was merely pointing out to the other poster that they weren’t comparing like-for-like!


----------



## YaniDee

I would like to see an "hors-d'oeuvres" series showing orchestral effects such as, harp glissandi, Rossini crescendos, Debussy / John Williams textures, shimmers, woodwind / brass textures, effects and flourishes, etc.


----------



## el-bo

YaniDee said:


> I would like to see an "hors-d'oeuvres" series showing orchestral effects such as, harp glissandi, Rossini crescendos, Debussy / John Williams textures, shimmers, woodwind / brass textures, effects and flourishes, etc.


Seems like flourishes, embellishments and augmentations etc. would be more along the lines of garnishes, no?


----------



## YaniDee

el-bo said:


> Seems like flourishes, embellishments and augmentations etc. would be more along the lines of garnishes, no?


Ok..but no radishes please..


----------



## el-bo

YaniDee said:


> Ok..but no radishes please..


Sliced radishes atop a radish coulis? Or how about steamed radish, filled with a radish ganache?


----------



## dzilizzi

YaniDee said:


> Ok..but no radishes please..


But what about Daikon?


----------



## YaniDee

dzilizzi said:


> But what about Daikon?


Daikon is good..I'm not at all picky about food, but, I never liked radishes or capers..anyhow if this goes off topic, don't blame me!


----------



## PhilipJohnston

Quick announcement re: Orchestration Recipes pricing—my intention was to revert to $59 on January 1st, but the intro video really did promise recipe collections can be had for $30. So I'll be honouring that...$30 it is.

Otherwise, I'm busy compiling/composing/animating/documenting Volume 2, some months away yet.


----------



## Max Bonsi

PhilipJohnston said:


> Quick announcement re: Orchestration Recipes pricing—my intention was to revert to $59 on January 1st, but the intro video really did promise recipe collections can be had for $30. So I'll be honouring that...$30 it is.
> 
> Otherwise, I'm busy compiling/composing/animating/documenting Volume 2, some months away yet.


Hi Philip!
Can't wait for Vol. 2
And thanks for keeping' the "friendly price"
All the Best

Max


----------



## lgmcben

PhilipJohnston said:


> Quick announcement re: Orchestration Recipes pricing—my intention was to revert to $59 on January 1st, but the intro video really did promise recipe collections can be had for $30. So I'll be honouring that...$30 it is.
> 
> Otherwise, I'm busy compiling/composing/animating/documenting Volume 2, some months away yet.


Some suggestions: 
- Recipes that involve more percussion 
- Recipes of cool transitions

🎅 🙏😍


----------



## Gingerbread

Hi Philip,
Will future volumes cover recipes with more than 4 "ingredients"?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

My suggestion would again be some material on connecting 2 or 3 recipes.


----------



## Germain B

ProfoundSilence said:


> My suggestion would again be some material on connecting 2 or 3 recipes.


Oh yes, a "good wines" serie.


----------



## Mark Stothard

How would one go about putting this on a PC with no internet connection? I really like the idea of these Orchestration Recipes, but never connect my DAW PC to the internet for fear of getting a virus.


----------



## icecoolpool

Mark Stothard said:


> How would one go about putting this on a PC with no internet connection? I really like the idea of these Orchestration Recipes, but never connect my DAW PC to the internet for fear of getting a virus.


As someone who has paid for the course, you can download the PDFs of the recipes (to print if you wish) as well as the midi files. Would it be possible for you to transfer these files over to your DAW PC through an external hard-drive?


----------



## Yogevs

Weird request - would love some modulations recipes


----------



## SupremeFist

No offence but some of these requests are for the material to be more like a "how to write good music" recipe, which is not at all the point (and I hope doesn't become it). Look forward to paying $59 whenever vol II comes out, Philip!


----------



## Mark Stothard

icecoolpool said:


> As someone who has paid for the course, you can download the PDFs of the recipes (to print if you wish) as well as the midi files. Would it be possible for you to transfer these files over to your DAW PC through an external hard-drive?


Thanks very much, yes should be able to transfer via external HD.


----------



## Wabashprof

rmak said:


> Wow everyone loves this course. Has anyone written any of their own compositions with this framework since it came out around end of Nov? It seems like a very engaging way to learn orchestration as opposed to studying things in a book. I think I heard of score club also, but it looks like their approach more academic/theory heavy.
> 
> I grew up taking piano lesson, so I have music theory knowledge. But not as familiar with orchestration. Will this course be a good fit?
> 
> I also read that the techniques taught can potentially be applied to other genres? Has anyone tried to apply it in other genres?
> 
> Trying to get a feel for if the approach being offered by orchestration recipes is finding their way in anybody's daily approach to writing. Maybe it is too soon to say. I am trying to get a better understanding how the recipes come to "live in your head" through practice.


I had similar questions before deciding to give it a try, especially whether or not this course can "live in your head," as you described it.

For me, the leap from conceptual understanding to "hey, I can take it from here" came very naturally. I think many of us hear a piece of music that grabs us and naturally deconstruct it in our heads. Philip's approach plugs into that impulse and lays out an accessible pathway to pushing a composition forward. It's like being the passenger in a sleek classic car, and the driver says "You wanna take the wheel?" - oh, yes, I do! 

As a long-time educator, I also admire the pedagogy behind this course. It's good teaching, and that's not always the case with online music lessons.

Hope this is helpful.


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Hey Phillip, Maybe there is already what I am about to suggest in Volume 1 as I have only done the 1st couple, but Would love to see using things like Modal Interchange, Different Modes, Useful non Diatonic Chords, the Mood effects of Different Modulations, I love theory about harmony etc


----------



## NekujaK

Orchestration Recipes are just what the title implies... techniques for orchestration. Most of the suggestions I see posted in this thread are about composition and theory, and while there's nothing wrong with that, there are PLENTY of tutorials available (both free and paid) that deal with composition and music theory, but there are precious few that offer orchestration techniques in such a clear and insightful way as Philip has done.

Personally, I encourage Philip to continue down the orchestration path, because there is still so much useful information to be mined that can't be easily accessed anywhere else. For those folks who want composition and theory tutorials, that's a completely different animal.

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Markus Kohlprath

Got it and like the course so far for it's clarity and simplicity. But please cancel the intro music or at least drop it for the next course. At the latest after recipe 4 it gets annoying. It's great for a teaser but it's not necessary for every little tutorial video.


----------



## Hywel

Markus Kohlprath said:


> Got it and like the course so far for it's clarity and simplicity. But please cancel the intro music or at least drop it for the next course. At the latest after recipe 4 it gets annoying. It's great for a teaser but it's not necessary for every little tutorial video.


I jump 15 seconds into each video...


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Markus Kohlprath said:


> Got it and like the course so far for it's clarity and simplicity. But please cancel the intro music or at least drop it for the next course. At the latest after recipe 4 it gets annoying. It's great for a teaser but it's not necessary for every little tutorial video.


Yeah this is a decent criticism - for videos if they aren't available to the public on youtube, maybe even including both audio examples first.


----------



## Michael Antrum

I have to admit that I actually transcribed the intro music on the first lesson - I hadn't realised it was the intro until I got further into the video.....


----------



## jbuhler

Markus Kohlprath said:


> Got it and like the course so far for it's clarity and simplicity. But please cancel the intro music or at least drop it for the next course. At the latest after recipe 4 it gets annoying. It's great for a teaser but it's not necessary for every little tutorial video.


Personally I’m a fan of intro music—well, the ritual of titles. But a “skip intro” feature would be nice if you are bingeing.


----------



## PhilipJohnston

For those looking to trial all this, there's a free recipe available, together with all the associated scores, MIDI files and PDF downloads. Just register at orchestrationrecipes.com.

Otherwise, Volume 2 production is well underway. Keep the feedback coming, help shape what's next.


----------



## saxobob

OK a little problem on the website. I registered for the preview some days ago and liked it. So, I thought, visit the site and buy it. So I went to https://orchestrationrecipes.com/ and there is no link to buy nor is there a login so Chrome can use my saved username/password. You do need to make it easier to buy this thing! I know I can look through my emails but that feels a hassle compared to most websites. The only vaguely login link would be the button to "register for a free preview" but I already did that before.


----------



## PhilipJohnston

saxobob said:


> OK a little problem on the website. I registered for the preview some days ago and liked it. So, I thought, visit the site and buy it. So I went to https://orchestrationrecipes.com/ and there is no link to buy nor is there a login so Chrome can use my saved username/password. You do need to make it easier to buy this thing! I know I can look through my emails but that feels a hassle compared to most websites. The only vaguely login link would be the button to "register for a free preview" but I already did that before.


I can see how that would be maddening—there's an easier way though:

*1) *Login to your free trial​*2) *Click any recipe that isn't a free preview​*3) *An invitation to unlock the entire collection will appear, together with a "Buy Now" button​
Click that button to start the purchase process. You'll have instant access to all recipes in the collection once purchase is complete.

I'll look at how to signpost this more clearly for Volume 2, and avoid that feedback loop that you encountered—let me know if you have any problems in the meantime.


----------



## rudi

You might want to add a "Login" button next to the "Register for free preview" one, as it is fairly confusing to find the Login screen... or is it just me? 
BTW love your course - looking fwd to Volume 2.


----------



## DennyB

Love this, just signed up. Totally worth it. I'm a software engineer and recipes (aka design patterns aka generalizations aka templates aka...) are how I learn. How many time have you listened to John Williams or John Barry and said "Ok, so big melody there, horn in counterpoint, ...". Love it, can't wait for v2.

Some of the ideas and criticisms here center around the style - 'conservatory' was one I saw. Anyway, nothing wrong with that. But, if you can somehow offer up a recipe 'bounty' to keep people contributing, I bet your library would explode with styles. So if I offer up a John Williams or John Barry recipe, you sell it ala carte on your website for $2 and give me $1, plus bragging rights. and reviews Then people can also buy it in bulk when they buy 30 at a time. Something like that. But if you want to get recipe sharing as a community effort (brilliant idea), this is a great community to rally behind that effort.

Love the idea and execution - you are a very good five-minute teacher.  Can't wait for the next version.


----------



## boinzy

Philip,

I bought weeks ago and I am just now digging in. Thank you for this! I'm a happy customer and feel it's a good value.

It was very much something I was looking for as a beginner and hobbyist. Staring at a blank Logic project and coming up with a palette of instruments that will work together (as a part of my learning, not composing) was so daunting. This helps me understand what sounds good together, how they might be used, and a way to practice.

The way I am using the recipes is to duplicate these in my DAW myself by performing the notes on my keyboard when possible. I will work through most or all of the recipes this way, then maybe try my hand at some of my own bars following these recipes. All for practice, all for fun.

Can I ask... how did you intend the midi files to be used? Just for reference? Or am I missing out by not using those?

Also, if I may add some friendly constructive feedback?

1. I also vote for removing the intros in front of every video. Not necessary once behind the paywall.

2. Orchestration Recipes is a great name. Perfect name. But I don't think you need to lean into the food schtick in the naming of each recipe. I am knowledgable in music and in the kitchen, so the labels are not foreign to me, but they make no sense when paired together. The first thing I did was look for a recipe in a style of music that I like and wanted to emulate, but the names did not indicate that at all.

3. I agree with what others said about labeling the recipes by style and mood.

4. To expand on that... I would love to see some recipes based on specific composers and music tracks, from a variety of artists and eras. For instance, in Recipe 2 you reference Haydn in the name, but no other reference is noted in the recipe. While not necessary, I wouldn't have minded learning about that connection.

Also, to be able to learn from recipes referencing contemporary film composers, neoclassical composers, as well as traditional would be amazing, if that's in your wheelhouse.

Thanks again for creating this and putting out in the world. I know some people may not understand it, but for someone like me, this is a great learning device! Looking forward to Volume 2.


----------



## PhilipJohnston

boinzy said:


> Philip,
> 
> I bought weeks ago and I am just now digging in. Thank you for this! I'm a happy customer and feel it's a good value.
> 
> It was very much something I was looking for as a beginner and hobbyist. Staring at a blank Logic project and coming up with a palette of instruments that will work together (as a part of my learning, not composing) was so daunting. This helps me understand what sounds good together, how they might be used, and a way to practice.
> 
> The way I am using the recipes is to duplicate these in my DAW myself by performing the notes on my keyboard when possible. I will work through most or all of the recipes this way, then maybe try my hand at some of my own bars following these recipes. All for practice, all for fun.
> 
> Can I ask... how did you intend the midi files to be used? Just for reference? Or am I missing out by not using those?


MIDI files were included so that people can quickly populate their own DAW or notation program with any of the examples in the collection. 

So it's mostly for running your own experiments...start with the original, and then make your changes. But it's not compulsory—not everyone will use the MIDI files, and that's fine. (Not everyone uses the scores, or the Chef's notes either)



boinzy said:


> Also, if I may add some friendly constructive feedback?


You may. There's lots on this thread. I haven't replied to everything. But I read it all carefully, and it's hugely helpful.


boinzy said:


> 1. I also vote for removing the intros in front of every video. Not necessary once behind the paywall.


The current intro sting is 10 seconds long, it's there every time, and it's starting to haunt my dreams too. 

I don't want to smash cut into content at the very start of each video, but creating a near-instant intro sting is on my todo list for Volume 2. I'm then likely to redo the Volume 1 video starts when I do. 

(With apologies to anyone who looks forward to the intro music every time)


boinzy said:


> 2. Orchestration Recipes is a great name. Perfect name. But I don't think you need to lean into the food schtick in the naming of each recipe. I am knowledgable in music and in the kitchen, so the labels are not foreign to me, but they make no sense when paired together. The first thing I did was look for a recipe in a style of music that I like and wanted to emulate, but the names did not indicate that at all.





boinzy said:


> 3. I agree with what others said about labeling the recipes by style and mood.


I'm looking at titling in Volume 2 being a little more clinically descriptive, and a little less Salvador Dali Trips On The Mushrooms He's Cooking With And Is Left Unsupervised To Name Recipes.


boinzy said:


> 4. To expand on that... I would love to see some recipes based on specific composers and music tracks, from a variety of artists and eras. For instance, in Recipe 2 you reference Haydn in the name, but no other reference is noted in the recipe. While not necessary, I wouldn't have minded learning about that connection.
> 
> Also, to be able to learn from recipes referencing contemporary film composers, neoclassical composers, as well as traditional would be amazing, if that's in your wheelhouse.


Recipes draw heavily on orchestrations from composers past and present, although the examples are all freshly composed. Lots more coming in Volume 2. 



boinzy said:


> Thanks again for creating this and putting out in the world. I know some people may not understand it, but for someone like me, this is a great learning device! Looking forward to Volume 2.


----------



## AlainTH

great course, stimulating, and at the good price!


----------



## madfloyd

I just started yesterday. This is perfect for me as I'm a total noob and I learn better when I have exercises to do. I am unable to transcribe anything that isn't simple so in doing the first lesson I have had to replay the video a zillion times trying to 'zoom in' on what the notes are. I wish it were easier as I feel there is value in putting in the notes (or playing them) without having to resort to the midi file.

It took me a while to figure out what SATB meant (for the choir).

EDIT: I just scrolled down during the first recipe/lesson and see that the sheet music is displayed for each ingredient (along with comments). While I'm very slow at reading music this is incredibly helpful, thank you.


----------



## Evans

Orchestration Recipes was a *massive *timesaver when I was creating a new, primary template. I saw that someone else dumped all the MIDI files into a sample project and used it for balancing and some light touch EQ. I did the same.

Yes, it required riding some CCs, but having a chunk of well orchestrated snippets rather than writing my own or trying to rip from a dozen old, disparate projects was well worth the money.

I'd have paid double, and will likely grab Volume 2 simply out of support, at the minimum, sight unseen (or unheard, if you will).


----------



## SupremeFist

madfloyd said:


> I just started yesterday. This is perfect for me as I'm a total noob and I learn better when I have exercises to do. I am unable to transcribe anything that isn't simple so in doing the first lesson I have had to replay the video a zillion times trying to 'zoom in' on what the notes are. I wish it were easier as I feel there is value in putting in the notes (or playing them) without having to resort to the midi file.
> 
> It took me a while to figure out what SATB meant (for the choir).
> 
> EDIT: I just scrolled down during the first recipe/lesson and see that the sheet music is displayed for each ingredient (along with comments). While I'm very slow at reading music this is incredibly helpful, thank you.


You don't have to transcribe the demo though, you can just write your own piece using the same "ingredients" (how I've been enjoying using it).


----------



## ed buller

rudi said:


> You might want to add a "Login" button next to the "Register for free preview" one, as it is fairly confusing to find the Login screen... or is it just me?
> BTW love your course - looking fwd to Volume 2.


No me too !

e


----------



## el-bo

PhilipJohnston said:


> For those looking to trial all this, there's a free recipe available, together with all the associated scores, MIDI files and PDF downloads. Just register at orchestrationrecipes.com.
> 
> Otherwise, Volume 2 production is well underway. Keep the feedback coming, help shape what's next.


Thanks for the freebie, man!


----------



## Markrs

Evans said:


> Orchestration Recipes was a *massive *timesaver when I was creating a new, primary template. I saw that someone else dumped all the MIDI files into a sample project and used it for balancing and some light touch EQ. I did the same.
> 
> Yes, it required riding some CCs, but having a chunk of well orchestrated snippets rather than writing my own or trying to rip from a dozen old, disparate projects was well worth the money.
> 
> I'd have paid double, and will likely grab Volume 2 simply out of support, at the minimum, sight unseen (or unheard, if you will).


Great idea, I might explore doing that!


----------



## dzilizzi

SupremeFist said:


> You don't have to transcribe the demo though, you can just write your own piece using the same "ingredients" (how I've been enjoying using it).


This! I have been having fun creating my own music based on the recipes and sometimes changing ingredients depending upon what is in my cupboard.


----------



## madfloyd

SupremeFist said:


> You don't have to transcribe the demo though, you can just write your own piece using the same "ingredients" (how I've been enjoying using it).


I'm still learning how music is 'put together' so I really like understanding the composition in the recipe. For example, if I only created my own piece I would have never have thought to use a second for the choral harmony.


----------



## PhilipJohnston

rudi said:


> You might want to add a "Login" button next to the "Register for free preview" one, as it is fairly confusing to find the Login screen... or is it just me?
> BTW love your course - looking fwd to Volume 2.


There's now a shiny bright green sign-in button at orchestrationrecipes.com 

As more recipe collections are released, all the volumes you own will be accessible from the one sign-in.


----------



## rudi

Excellent! Thanks for doing that, and looking forward to more of your great recipes!


----------



## versko19

Finally got around to checking out more of these orchestration recipes, and chopped out this pleasant sounding phrase from Recipe 03! I've been pretty busy doing less orchestral, and orchestration based projects, and I sometimes find it hard to just start writing for myself, so it's nice to use these recipes as a starting point for creating something!

I just created a new template as well, which gave me all the more reason to just dive in and whip something together. In terms of libraries, I'm messing around with BBCSO layered with OT's Majestic Horn, and NSS Celli. Looking forward to the next volume, although I still have plenty of content to go through.


----------



## wilberton

Just got these, they're really interesting to go through. Also they make great transcription practice! 
I love the names, they're just descriptive enough to give you an idea of the flavour (pardon the pun), but they also make me chuckle.

I had one question: in recipe 13 (brass fanfared au gratin with running winds), the score shows the piccolo playing an octave _below _the flute (it's written 2 octaves below). Was that deliberate, and if so, could you explain a little why that is?


----------



## PhilipJohnston

wilberton said:


> Just got these, they're really interesting to go through. Also they make great transcription practice!
> I love the names, they're just descriptive enough to give you an idea of the flavour (pardon the pun), but they also make me chuckle.
> 
> I had one question: in recipe 13 (brass fanfared au gratin with running winds), the score shows the piccolo playing an octave _below _the flute (it's written 2 octaves below). Was that deliberate, and if so, could you explain a little why that is?





wilberton said:


> Just got these, they're really interesting to go through. Also they make great transcription practice!
> I love the names, they're just descriptive enough to give you an idea of the flavour (pardon the pun), but they also make me chuckle.
> 
> I had one question: in recipe 13 (brass fanfared au gratin with running winds), the score shows the piccolo playing an octave _below _the flute (it's written 2 octaves below). Was that deliberate, and if so, could you explain a little why that is?


I have an explanation. The chef is an idiot.
Leave it with me; that's a musical typo, piccolo is definitely meant to be above the flute in Recipe 13>Step 3. (otherwise you need a Contrabass Piccolo, and they're very expensive)
With thanks for letting me know!


----------



## widescreen

PhilipJohnston said:


> I have an explanation. The chef is an idiot.
> Leave it with me; that's a musical typo, piccolo is definitely meant to be above the flute in Recipe 13>Step 3. (otherwise you need a Contrabass Piccolo, and they're very expensive)
> With thanks for letting me know!


Damn, I just received my special order from our local bassoon manufacture. After doing Recipe 13, I thought I must have missed that one in Adler's book. Now it's useless. Anyone need a cheap Contrabass Piccolo in MINT condition, maybe in exchange for a nice Contrabassoon?


----------



## ed buller

widescreen said:


> Damn, I just received my special order from our local bassoon manufacture. After doing Recipe 13, I thought I must have missed that one in Adler's book. Now it's useless. Anyone need a cheap Contrabass Piccolo in MINT condition, maybe in exchange for a nice Contrabassoon?


does it have the G neutral extension ?...if so SOLD !


----------



## widescreen

ed buller said:


> does it have the G neutral extension ?...if so SOLD !


No, sorry. Was out of my budget. But it has a built-in siphon, so no problem with putrid smells, even if you have a really massive salivation.


----------



## PhilipJohnston

Recipe 13 has been patched - Video, PDF, Chef's Notes and onscreen scores now show piccolo in the correct octave. With thanks to Wilberton for discovering the bug.


----------



## BlackDorito

Don't sell yet ... I'm transcribing _Dance of the Sugarplum Walrus_es for that CB piccolo.

I found it very simple to get a good rendition of Recipe #1 .. I entered it into Sibelius in short order and it sounds great.






I'm having problems purchasing the course however .. the PayPal window just hangs :(


----------



## NekujaK

BlackDorito said:


> Don't sell yet ... I'm transcribing _Dance of the Sugarplum Walrus_es for that CB piccolo.
> 
> I found it very simple to get a good rendition of Recipe #1 .. I entered it into Sibelius in short order and it sounds great.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm having problems purchasing the course however .. the PayPal window just hangs :(


PayPal hangs for me on a couple of sites - I think Spitfire might be one of them. I get around this by making my purchases on a different computer (different operating system and not as many ad blockers). Don't know if this might help your situation.


----------



## Markus Kohlprath

First another thank you for this pretty educational course. 
Second a complain and imo a big one. There are no dynamic markings whatsoever in the scores. I ask myself if this is intentional for some reasons. As I understand it the dynamics of the orchestral instruments in a score are one of the most important informations to get to a desired sound. I mean one can guess of course and you figure it out after listening but to learn and memorize I would really prefer to have the dynamics written there. Also to see how you would use them exactly if you write for a real life orchestra.


----------



## BlackDorito

NekujaK said:


> PayPal hangs for me on a couple of sites - I think Spitfire might be one of them. I get around this by making my purchases on a different computer (different operating system and not as many ad blockers). Don't know if this might help your situation.


That worked .. thx for the tip.


----------



## DennyB

I don't know how you would organize this, but I would love to see/share people's takes on the individual recipes.


----------



## davidson

A suggestion - I'd love to see different composer themed cookbooks. A nice book of Shore starters, some Williams mains, a collection of Horner desserts...


----------



## PascalB

@PhilipJohnston Great idea, Philip, really great! I've just purchased the pack and I'll be defintely expecting the next one(s). This is exactly what a beginner like me needs, after preparing a template in Cubase... So, what's next now? Learning one of the major books (Rimsky-Korsakov, Adler...), diving into John Williams score (I'll do anyway but the mountain is huge!). No, at a first time, OchestrationRecipes is the very best step to enter slightly into the orchestration area without stress. This is a PEFECT tool for many of us. And the field looks infinite, as different people have already started to suggest it: recipes about such classical composer, or, of course, such film score composer whose names are so obvious...!  
I want to thank you so much, Philip for this extraordinary idea!
BTW, in French if a word starts with a vowel (eg. "Egyptienne", in recipe #6 name), and the former article ends also with a vowel ("de"), we truncate both in "d'Egyptienne"... Just my 2 cents...


----------



## SlHarder




----------



## lgmcben

SlHarder said:


>



Damn. Volume 1 let us beat John Williams with only $30. Who are we gonna beat after this volume? Mozart is dead.


----------



## zedmaster

Awesoomeeeeeeeeee!!


----------



## dadadave

SlHarder said:


>



great news....but July is so far away!  :-D


----------



## davidson

It's hard to tell what vol 2 will be - is it following the same format?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

lgmcben said:


> Damn. Volume 1 let us beat John Williams with only $30. Who are we gonna beat after this volume? Mozart is dead.


I don't think a lifetime of study would allow any of us to beat him.


----------



## madfloyd

Great news!!! Looking forward to it!


----------



## Nimrod7

Just got Vol.1 4 days ago, and I am enjoying it to the max!
Can't wait for Vol.2, it will be a instant buy for me.

Great job Philip! I want to say also your voice is super captivating and inspires! The voiceover on the intro in vol.1 is so good!


----------



## AlainTH

great!
just hope there well be no more intro musics.


----------



## M_Helder

Great and inspiring concept, Philip!
Even greater execution, to be honest.

I love the idea of experienced orchestrators sharing/selling their recipes instead of me wasting money on just another string library


----------



## Sulblk

Good afternoon. I need a bit of assistance if I may. I was going back over my receipes, with videos, and the sounds that are coming out seem to be echoing or doubling or something. I thought it was my speakers, but I can clearly hear the intro with no problem, but after that the sounds are muddy. Some videos, starting with 5 just spins. Is this because I had finished the course? Any assistance will be greatly appreciated.


----------



## PhilipJohnston

Hi Sulblk, just letting you know I’ve seen your messsge, will investigate for you first thing this morning. There is definitely not a Self Destruct function that kicks in when you’ve finished the course that gets all your videos drunk - the whole idea is that recipes are there to refer to whenever you need. 

To help me possibly replicate the issue, and just in case I need to escalate to my hoster’s tech support (Thinkific), can you send through details of your OS and browser versions? Also curious to know if the issue recurs if you try a different browser.


----------



## Sulblk

PhilipJohnston said:


> Hi Sulblk, just letting you know I’ve seen your messsge, will investigate for you first thing this morning. There is definitely not a Self Destruct function that kicks in when you’ve finished the course that gets all your videos drunk - the whole idea is that recipes are there to refer to whenever you need.
> 
> To help me possibly replicate the issue, and just in case I need to escalate to my hoster’s tech support (Thinkific), can you send through details of your OS and browser versions? Also curious to know if the issue recurs if you try a different browser.


Thank you so much for your quick response. I have been using FireFox for the web browser. I just now tried Microsoft Edge, and things are working perfect, even the ones I marked incomplete because the videos just buffers. The sound is spot on.


----------



## Antkn33

@PhilipJohnston I'm enjoying Orchestration Recipes. I am hung up on the Harmonies of recipe #9. I can't settle on something that seems right. Any help?
Thanks


----------



## PhilipJohnston

Antkn33 said:


> @PhilipJohnston I'm enjoying Orchestration Recipes. I am hung up on the Harmonies of recipe #9. I can't settle on something that seems right. Any help?
> Thanks


I'm usually intrigued to hear what people have come up with, so happy to take a listen if you PM the file, but I can't always promise individual help (the educator in me gets very OCD when I provide help, and I end up spending hours on each reply...I'd never complete another volume of Orchestration Recipes!)

That said, I know the frustrating feeling of harmonies not being right, despite all manner of tweaking—that after hours of revoicing/adding and removing suspensions and extensions/trying transitions with and without passing notes—it all still feels "meh". When that happens, it's usually a good idea to stop trying to panel beat these harmonies into a car that they'll never become, leave things for 24 hours, and then restart with a completely fresh progression. It's amazing how often that second pass produces the idea that works.


----------



## Markrs

Orchestration Recipes Volume 2 excerpt​


----------



## zedmaster

Awwwwww yessss!!  Great to see some dramatic stuff.


----------



## rrichard63

Markrs said:


> Orchestration Recipes Volume 2 excerpt​



Do I understand correctly that Volume 2 isn't actually available yet?


----------



## Markrs

rrichard63 said:


> Do I understand correctly that Volume 2 isn't actually available yet?


Not yet, The video is just an excerpt of volume 2 uploaded to YouTube


----------



## madfloyd

I want this NOWWWWWWWWWWWWWwwwwwwww


----------



## lgmcben

We robbed volume 1 from Philip ($30). Now he's back to collect the debt.


----------



## darthdeus

I haven't even gone through all of them in volume 1 but I'll totally buy volume 2 the second it drops. Such an amazing idea!


----------



## mussnig

I recently went through all of Volume 1 again and made an Excel sheet which includes the "ingredients" of each recipe but most importantly also keywords that are mostly based on my impressions when listening to the examples. The next time I tried to write some music, I already found this extremely useful (both because of the instrument overview but also because of the "moods").

Also, although I've already carefully gone through all the recipes, the creation of this Excel sheet let me rediscover the whole course again.


----------



## zedmaster

mussnig said:


> I recently went through all of Volume 1 again and made an Excel sheet which includes the "ingredients" of each recipe but most importantly also keywords that are mostly based on my impressions when listening to the examples. The next time I tried to write some music, I already found this extremely useful (both because of the instrument overview but also because of the "moods").
> 
> Also, although I've already carefully gone through all the recipes, the creation of this Excel sheet let me rediscover the whole course again.


Haven't gone through all yet. Curious if it's evenly distributed in your spreadsheet or if certain instruments/moods are represented more strongly than others.


----------



## ennbr

Funny this conversation woke up again I had sent Philip an email early this morning 1am est. Part of his reply he commented that the next set of 21 lessons was about finished and that it takes him 6 months to put together the 21 lessons. He also commented that keeping the lessons to a small number would keep costs down.

I'm looking forward to the next release.


----------



## lgmcben

Might be useful to someone:

I went through all recipes in volume 1 and bookmarked the ones that can be used in a battle theme (my current project):

- Recipe #8
- Recipe #13
- Recipe #16
- Recipe #17
- Recipe #18
- Recipe #20


----------



## mussnig

zedmaster said:


> Haven't gone through all yet. Curious if it's evenly distributed in your spreadsheet or if certain instruments/moods are represented more strongly than others.


It's completely mixed because I didn't commit to any "standard set" of keywords. I just used as many (key)words as needed to accurately describe my impressions of the examples (that is: describe them so that I will understand them). So the choice of these keywords completely varies. For some recipe I might simply use "epic" (among some other words) while for another I might use "pre-battle", although some people might use the same for both.

Edit: I noticed that drums/percussion wasn't used often, though.


----------



## Nimrod7

lgmcben said:


> Might be useful to someone:
> 
> I went through all recipes in volume 1 and bookmarked the ones that can be used in a battle theme (my current project):


That actually is a great idea for Vol.2
Tags to allow you to filter the recipes by theme!

Great if you are looking for inspiration on a specific theme!


----------



## SlHarder

mussnig said:


> Also, although I've already carefully gone through all the recipes, the creation of this Excel sheet let me rediscover the whole course again.


Would you be willing to share your spreadsheet? Fame and fortune awaits ...


----------



## mussnig

SlHarder said:


> Would you be willing to share your spreadsheet? Fame and fortune awaits ...


I have thought about this but since it contains the ingredients (e.g. "Violins - Staccato"), it kind of takes away from the course.


----------



## proxima

mussnig said:


> I have thought about this but since it contains the ingredients (e.g. "Violins - Staccato"), it kind of takes away from the course.


Perhaps it's something that Philip would be keen to distribute via the course materials itself?


----------



## madfloyd

mussnig said:


> I have thought about this but since it contains the ingredients (e.g. "Violins - Staccato"), it kind of takes away from the course.


Is it part of the course to 'guess' the ingredients?


----------



## mussnig

madfloyd said:


> Is it part of the course to 'guess' the ingredients?


Not necessarily, but if you post the ingredients of recipes which are only available in the paid course, you are giving away material of the course itself.

Also, my Excel sheet is very simple (it's basically just an overview for myself). So I just post this snippet which should only contain info which is available in the free previews of the course (probably that's easier than trying to explain it):





The only thing I added is the "Style Description". Some recipes only get 2-3 words, others more. Sometimes they are more standard/generic (like above), sometimes they are special or personal. E.g. "Old TV" or "The Sims" - simply because the examples reminded me of these things.


----------



## NekujaK

Frankly, the most valuable aspect of a spreadsheet/list is not the list itself, but as @mussnig originally pointed out, it's the process of actually going through the recipes to analyze and decipher the content. That's where the actual knowledge acquisition happens. The list is merely the byproduct.

@mussnig should keep the list to himself, while the rest of us would be wise to undergo a similar analytical process and actually learn something.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

The spreadsheet is a good "quick reference guide" after you've gone through the course. I believe @PhilipJohnston was thinking of making a physical printed copy of the text material available to order at some point as a similar reference guide?


----------



## mussnig

ALittleNightMusic said:


> The spreadsheet is a good "quick reference guide" after you've gone through the course. I believe @PhilipJohnston was thinking of making a physical printed copy of the text material available to order at some point as a similar reference guide?


I also have the PDFs from the course on my eReader (it's a 10 inch one, so not too small) but when I'm sitting at my DAW I usually look at my Excel sheet first and then open up some recipe in the online course if I want more details.


----------



## darthdeus

mussnig said:


> I recently went through all of Volume 1 again and made an Excel sheet which includes the "ingredients" of each recipe but most importantly also keywords that are mostly based on my impressions when listening to the examples. The next time I tried to write some music, I already found this extremely useful (both because of the instrument overview but also because of the "moods").
> 
> Also, although I've already carefully gone through all the recipes, the creation of this Excel sheet let me rediscover the whole course again.


That's an awesome idea! I'm definitely going to do the same.


----------



## Markrs




----------



## madfloyd

Can't wait!


----------



## pcohen12

Yes, so excited. These are gems!


----------



## PhilipJohnston

Volume 2 just dropped


----------



## PhilipJohnston

Urgh - put the wrong link on the purchase page, fixing it now


----------



## Alchemedia

What's the ETA on Vol 3 Philip?


----------



## ennbr

I was just going to post that I could not purchase Vol 2 keeps telling me I already own the product


----------



## Eric G

Just Bought Volume 2.


----------



## ennbr

Thats better now it works purchase complete


----------



## PhilipJohnston

ennbr said:


> I was just going to post that I could not purchase Vol 2 keeps telling me I already own the product


Yeah, I was an idiot and linked to the wrong volume. Should be fixed now.


----------



## Haakond

Bought. Your way of teaching is just awesome, so I am happy to support


----------



## SlHarder

Bought, happy to support the educational quality you bring to Recipes!


----------



## markit

This is the best news of the week. I was looking forward to this so much. I can’t wait to get home and buy it!


----------



## Rich4747

a great way to learn with a fun presentation.


----------



## proxima

Instant purchase. I enjoyed how vol 1 encouraged me to use woodwinds more, and I'm looking forward to the shift further towards cinematic styles in vol 2.


----------



## robcs

Bought as soon as the email notification came in!


----------



## Markrs

Instant purchase, Thank Philip, can't wait to get stuck into them!


----------



## Nimrod7

Wow, best weekend ever!



Congrats Philip!


----------



## milford59

I am busy with other stuff so I don’t know when I will get the chance to look at these but I bought it instantly - I think the price is so competitive for what you get... Thank you very much - I am really looking forward to getting into these as soon as I can !!


----------



## Gil

Hello,
Thanks for the volume 2 (purchased just now)!

One thing I was wondering is why in the scores aren't there any dynamics? I do feel as something quite essential 

Regards,
Gil.


----------



## icecoolpool

I just bought and have already learned a valuable lesson.

I was just going through the videos and got to the second recipe, "Glade of Echoes" and thought, wow, that´s a great cello sound - what could this mysterious library possibly be? It´s far better than anything I have.

Spitfire BBC Pro. A library I own. As ever: it´s the user that counts, not the tools.


----------



## hsindermann

That was an Instabuy!  Way more value for money in these than in a new sample library!

Just one minor thing - same as Gil mentioned below: I was already in Vol 1 missing dynamics in the scores as well as speed indications. Any chance these will be updated - or included in Volume 3? :D



Gil said:


> Hello,
> Thanks for the volume 2 (purchased just now)!
> 
> One thing I was wondering is why in the scores aren't there any dynamics? I do feel as something quite essential
> 
> Regards,
> Gil.


----------



## Evans

I think a problem with dynamics is that this is an educational tool that assumes you are using any number of sample libraries, and each library is going to have its own dynamic ranges and curves.

Sure, perhaps markings can be made on the score, but can't you just use your ears for that one part?


----------



## zedmaster

Awesome! Will do another "Let's Orchestrate" Video on this one!  Can't wait to go through the recipes.


----------



## madfloyd

It would be interesting to know why Philip chose the libraries he did in each lesson. He promotes that they don't matter but he's always switching it up...


----------



## jbuhler

madfloyd said:


> It would be interesting to know why Philip chose the libraries he did in each lesson. He promotes that they don't matter but he's always switching it up...


I would say he switches up to show that the libraries are incidental to the basic task. With that in mind it be interesting if he provided a few examples where he first used one set of libraries and then another to realize the same recipe. That’s an implied exercise for the user, but a few examples of the teacher doing it might be useful for some.


----------



## davidson

Awesome! The chefs notes seem more in-depth this time around, and the recipes more complex and interesting. Already looking forward to part 3.


----------



## Gingerbread

I'm really loving Vol. 2!

The recipes are definitely more focused on "cinematic" filmic textures this time around, covering a very wide selection of moods, and the heading of each recipe is more meaningful and useful describing mood and style (they're no longer gourmet cuisine descriptions---good choice). Some are _slightly_ more complex than Vol. 1's recipes, allowing for more interesting textures.

Also, the quality of the mockups is superior to Vol. 1. While the focus is never on the libraries, Phillip has nonetheless made good use of a wider selection of libraries to capture really nice lines. Ultimately, though, the recipes will certainly work very well with whatever libraries you have on hand.

A definite great buy! Will certainly buy Vol. 3.


----------



## Markus Kohlprath

Gil said:


> Hello,
> Thanks for the volume 2 (purchased just now)!
> 
> One thing I was wondering is why in the scores aren't there any dynamics? I do feel as something quite essential
> 
> Regards,
> Gil.


I'm wondering too. I already asked that question after watching recipe 1. But no answer yet.


----------



## msorrels

I liked the first one, I like this new one as well. It's really more of the same. I do wish each of the recipes had a recommended tempo range though (You can see what he's using on the videos but the MIDI files all seem to be 120bpm?). There also isn't guidance on recommended keys/scales. I'm sure more talented composers don't need that kind of hand holding, but for someone like me it might be useful.


----------



## Gil

Markus Kohlprath said:


> I'm wondering too. I already asked that question after watching recipe 1. But no answer yet.


Ha, thanks for the info: also no tempo is notated...


----------



## emilio_n

msorrels said:


> I liked the first one, I like this new one as well. It's really more of the same. I do wish each of the recipes had a recommended tempo range though (You can see what he's using on the videos but the MIDI files all seem to be 120bpm?). There also isn't guidance on recommended keys/scales. I'm sure more talented composers don't need that kind of hand holding, but for someone like me it might be useful.


I know that the idea behind the recipes is that you can adapt any idea that you have and using the recipe get a specific kind of sound but I agree that some suggestions about what chord progression could work with each recipe or what key to use could be a great bonus for the with less experience. Could be a great addon for the future.


----------



## Martin S

Excellent ! - Instabuy, both volumes


----------



## msorrels

I just checked and Volume 1's MIDI files do have tempos other than 120. I think perhaps Volume 2's files are missing the tempo settings by mistake.


----------



## RobbertZH

Cannot find a table of contents for Volume 2 on the official site.
What are the moods that are covered by the 21 new recipes?


----------



## muddyblue

RobbertZH said:


> Cannot find a table of contents for Volume 2 on the official site.
> What are the moods that are covered by the 21 new recipes?


try …https://orchestrationrecipes.thinkific.com/


----------



## jbuhler

muddyblue said:


> try …https://orchestrationrecipes.thinkific.com/


Yeah, that link doesn't provide a TOC. In terms of content all i can find are the previews, nothing like a list of "recipe" titles.


----------



## RobbertZH

muddyblue said:


> try …https://orchestrationrecipes.thinkific.com/


The 5 taster recipes you can find there are from Volume 1, but I cannot find any from Volume 2.
And even then, a full TOC would be nice.


----------



## ennbr

RobbertZH said:


> The 5 taster recipes you can find there are from Volume 1, but I cannot find any from Volume 2.
> And even then, a full TOC would be nice.


I don't think this should be a problem posting the titles of each chapter or I hope not

22: Heroes! Assemble!
23: Glade of Echoes
24: Ready the archers; bar the gates
25: The Valleys of Ilydria
26: Stalactites of the Ice Witch
27: Two years, to the day
28: You can't outrun the Hounds
29: Breakfast is served at the Manor
30: Old rug. Hidden trapdoor.
31: Make haste. Warn the villagers.
32: The Princess is laid to rest
33: Exploring the reef
34: We shouldn't have camped in this forest
35: Trouble at the docks
36: Melancholy transition
37: Workshop of the Demented Clocksmith
38: My seventh summer; my first bike
39: Helter Skelter
40: The wombat doesn't like snow
41: Scramble the pilots
42: The train to St. Katherine's School of Illusions


----------



## icecoolpool

jbuhler said:


> Yeah, that link doesn't provide a TOC. In terms of content all i can find are the previews, nothing like a list of "recipe" titles.


Having just listened through the examples again, I decided to lump them into the following rough categories:

Superhero x1
Action x2
Horror x3
Fantasy x3
Nostalgia positive x 1
Melancholy x2
Period drama x1
Suspense x5
Mourning x1
Comedy x1
Underwater discovery x1

It´s a good collection that covers a fair bit of ground. Often the second examples show how to use the same ingredients to create different moods, so there is most likely more covered than I´ve listed above. Overall, I would say it´s a better collection than the first with slightly more complex writing.


----------



## RobbertZH

ennbr said:


> I don't think this should be a problem posting the titles of each chapter or I hope not
> 
> 22: Heroes! Assemble!
> 23: Glade of Echoes
> 24: Ready the archers; bar the gates
> 25: The Valleys of Ilydria
> 26: Stalactites of the Ice Witch
> 27: Two years, to the day
> 28: You can't outrun the Hounds
> 29: Breakfast is served at the Manor
> 30: Old rug. Hidden trapdoor.
> 31: Make haste. Warn the villagers.
> 32: The Princess is laid to rest
> 33: Exploring the reef
> 34: We shouldn't have camped in this forest
> 35: Trouble at the docks
> 36: Melancholy transition
> 37: Workshop of the Demented Clocksmith
> 38: My seventh summer; my first bike
> 39: Helter Skelter
> 40: The wombat doesn't like snow
> 41: Scramble the pilots
> 42: The train to St. Katherine's School of Illusions


Thanks for the list.

Looking at the titles, some, like 22, 24, 28, 31, I would guess are rather epic. 
As I am not much in to that, what kind of other moods are covered?


----------



## RobbertZH

icecoolpool said:


> Having just listened through the examples again, I decided to lump them into the following rough categories:
> 
> Superhero x1
> Action x2
> Horror x3
> Fantasy x3
> Nostalgia positive x 1
> Melancholy x2
> Period drama x1
> Suspense x5
> Mourning x1
> Comedy x1
> Underwater discovery x1
> 
> It´s a good collection that covers a fair bit of ground. Often the second examples show how to use the same ingredients to create different moods, so there is most likely more covered than I´ve listed above. Overall, I would say it´s a better collection than the first with slightly more complex writing.


Thanks for the categorization


----------



## muddyblue

RobbertZH said:


> Thanks for the categorization


oh sorry, didn't get it right


----------



## PhilipJohnston

MIDI files for Volume 2 corrected and reuploaded - should now match the tempos in the audio section (for those of you practicing transcribing) and the video tutorials.


----------



## Markus Kohlprath

PhilipJohnston said:


> MIDI files corrected and uploaded - should now match the tempos in the audio transcription section, and the video tutorials.


Hi Philip, great series your recipes. How about adding dynamic markings?

And a bit confusing, may I say, mistake: In Glade of Echoes 2nd example the e sharp is notated as f natural which is confusing if you start to think in f sharp major and want to make sense of the tristan like harmonies. Irrelevant as long as someone as experienced composer composes alone in his daw. But for educational purposes if you reach unexperienced students this kind of things should be taken care of imho.


----------



## PhilipJohnston

Evans said:


> I think a problem with dynamics is that this is an educational tool that assumes you are using any number of sample libraries, and each library is going to have its own dynamic ranges and curves.
> 
> Sure, perhaps markings can be made on the score, but can't you just use your ears for that one part?


This is actually one of the reasons I didn't mark dynamics in the scores: a brass section fortissimo is a very different beast for Berlin Brass than it is for Cinematic Studio Brass, than it is again for Majestica, and so on. 

That aside, every recipe really does provide plenty of help with dynamics:

In the *videos*, each part is recorded in individually, so you can hear them taking shape
The accompanying written *Chef's Notes* provide extensive detail about the roles and balance of the various parts. 
Throw on some headphones, and head to the *audio-only section *of any Recipe, and you'll hear plenty of detail that will also help you match.
Recipes aren't designed to give you fader settings and CC curves to trace; they are designed to outline thinking that can help you intelligently create your own. Teach a person to fish, and all that, and respect the fact that their sample library might be BrassZilla, Eardummageddon Edition. 

I've posted one of the Recipe videos below to illustrate—because it's just the video, there's no Chef's notes, and not a word about dynamics, but I don't think anybody would be confused about how to set up their own version (again, headphones is always best, even with YouTube)


----------



## Markus Kohlprath

Evans said:


> I think a problem with dynamics is that this is an educational tool that assumes you are using any number of sample libraries, and each library is going to have its own dynamic ranges and curves.
> 
> Sure, perhaps markings can be made on the score, but can't you just use your ears for that one part?


Excuse me but this doesn't make sense at all to me. Dynamic markings in a score and specific tonal differences of sample libraries are two totally different problems to address.
The problem is not that you can or cannot use your ears. It's about how to write music properly so that musicians can realize your music as intended if necessary.
Imagine you have a life session and deliver a score like this. Would be laughable. Or can you tell the musicians: "just listen to the midi rendering. That will tell you how to play...."
Otherwise it should be clearly stated: This is for DAW use and eartraining only and not ment as an orchestration study tool.


----------



## Trash Panda

PhilipJohnston said:


> BrassZilla, Eardummageddon Edition.


Your brand of humor is part of what makes this product so special.


----------



## rudi

> Recipes aren't designed to give you fader settings and CC curves to trace; they are designed to outline thinking that can help you intelligently create your own. Teach a person to fish, and all that, and respect the fact that their sample library might be BrassZilla, Eardummageddon Edition.



One of the reasons I love the Orchestration Recipes is that they are exactly what the title implies, recipes. The Merriam Webster online dictionary gives a couple of definitions:









Definition of RECIPE


prescription; a set of instructions for making something from various ingredients; a formula or procedure for doing or attaining something… See the full definition




www.merriam-webster.com





The recipes give me a list of instruments, show me how they are put together, let me listen to the result, as well as examining the scores, and even use the MIDI files. They give me a great insight into what makes for a good track, and how certain combinations and textures work together.

I know that everyone has a different style of learning, for me I learn best by doing, i.e working out through the exercises, trying things out for myself, compare my results with the recipes, and start to get a feel on how various sections of the orchestra interact and work together; as well as matching levels and expressions.

To my mind they are not an exhaustive course on orchestration, music theory, the detailed range and history of each instrument, counterpoint, harmony, or preparation of scores for publication, arrangement etc.

I've ploughed through the Adler, a little bit of Rimsky-Korsakov, and various other traditional orchestation resources which are fundamental, but I have learnt a lot more from these recipes, in terms of arranging, combining textures and rhythms, and instrumental balance. In my very humble opinion it is one of the best $30 (and very underpriced) purchase I have ever made.


----------



## Evans

Markus Kohlprath said:


> Imagine you have a life session and deliver a score like this.


But this isn't for a live session. It's an educational tool that is clearly focused on virtual instruments, and FF for Spitfire Symphonic Brass is quite different from FF for Tom Holkenborg Brass, so the markings may not only be irrelevant, but potentially actively confusing or frustrating.


----------



## zedmaster

rudi said:


> In my very humble opinion it is one the best $30 (and very underpriced) purchase I have ever made.



Can't agree more. It's such a joy seeing all these different orchestral colors dismantled and explained. They lose their complexity and become much more accessible to me. I love re-creating them.

I appreciate the recipes for the fact, that I can focus on 4-5 things and get a wonderful result from it. The feeling for the dynamics, I extract automatically when watching the video and hearing what the end result is supposed to sound like. I then add them to my own versions of the recipe intuitively.


----------



## madfloyd

I am a total nitwit when it comes to orchestrating and composing. I should probably stick to gardening but I suck at that too. I'm only on recipe 4... yup, from the original volume and I am humbled, excited and exhausted (in a good way).

While I understand how to read music, I am not practiced at it. I don't have a great ear; I can pick out melodies if they're not too complex but chords are challenging. So I'm recreating the recipe by deciphering the sheet music (Every Good Boy Deserves....) and I keep making mistakes so it's slow going. Of course I keep watching a recipe video OVER AND OVER while doing this, thank god for the one-at-a-time video approach.

But I'm absorbing stuff. I've read numerous books about music theory and listen to orchestral music all the time and feel I conceptually understand a fair amount but there's no substitute for 'doing' and these recipes are (and will) help me to get over the proverbial blank page/writer's block and develop at least a little skill (using my DAW if nothing else).

It's humbling to input 3 bars of sustained trombone chords and have them sound like total doggie doo (or a synth in a pop track) without the modulation data. I have to keep experimenting with this to get it to sound right... but that's where I'm learning as well. 

At the end of the lesson I download the midi file to double check the actual note pitches and timing. It takes me HOURS to do this. Thank god they're short!

My only pet peeve is the way the video shows notes on the piano roll... a sustained note shows as a short until it's released and somehow my brain finds that very disconcerting/distracting.

Other than that, I think these recipes are the best thing ever.

And no I don't do this for a living and have no aspirations other than to learn and amuse myself.


----------



## Markus Kohlprath

Evans said:


> But this isn't for a live session. It's an educational tool that is clearly focused on virtual instruments, and FF for Spitfire Symphonic Brass is quite different from FF for Tom Holkenborg Brass, so the markings may not only be irrelevant, but potentially actively confusing or frustrating.


Ah so it's not "Orchestration Recipes" but "Virtual Orchestration Recipes only for Virtual Instruments". How could I miss that? Of course.
And now we don't have a trombone FF anymore but a Holkenborg FF, a Spitfire Brass FF, a VSL Brass FF not to forget the Orchestral Tools FF and so on.....interesting. The world is really getting a bit complicated. 
But wait- why does Philip say all the time it doesn't matter which library you use?


----------



## zedmaster

Markus Kohlprath said:


> Ah so it's not "Orchestration Recipes" but "Virtual Orchestration Recipes only for Virtual Instruments". How could I miss that? Of course.



It's mentioned in the title :D


----------



## Markus Kohlprath

zedmaster said:


> It's mentioned in the title :D


You mean the subtitle I can hardly read on my phone? Well until now a DAW composer for me wasn’t necessary someone who is seperated from or isn't interested in real world orchestration. Quite the opposite in fact. I always thought it is a good foundation for everything you try to realise on the computer. Isn't every score that is performed nowadays first made in a DAW by a DAW composer? 
But anyway I was just making a point on what I thought might improve this otherwise great series. It's absolutely no deal breaker. You can get a lot out of it as it is of course.


----------



## Martin S

Before we venture further into ‘splitting hairs’ territory regarding dynamic markings of these excellent courses, I’ll just say what should be obvious: Use your ears !! - Dynamic markings IRL (and DAW) will always just be a rough guide anyway…


----------



## jbuhler

I guess along with others here, I think the score should represent the full instructions for an idealized performance. The midi is one realization of it optimized to the libraries used. But I don’t see any more confusion in adding an FF marking in the score for this and Williams or Mahler adding an FF marking to their scores. A Mahler FF differs from a Williams FF and one Mahler FF differs from another Mahler FF depending on context and as that. But it would be peculiar to argue that we shouldn’t include dynamics in Mahler scores for all that. And so I think these recipes should absolutely have dynamic markings in the scores.


----------



## TonyDeConcini

I am new here and in no way am I criticizing anyone else's opinion. And I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that "everybody has an opinion and they're entitled to it" - or another less subtle cliche' "opinions are like *******s - everybody has one but we don't need to hear it". Perhaps I fall into that category.

Look, I'm an old guy - been a musician for the better part of 60+ years - though as a vocalist. But I've traveled the roads of music as well for a very long time. So let me say one simple and BASIC thing that these Orch Recipes provide - above music theory, above and well beyond whether they're musically 100% accurate, whether or not they are put down in scored form with or without dynamic markings or anything else.......as I personally see it, they do provide many things. However, the overriding element that some have mentioned here but many have ignored, is that they provide INSPIRATION and AN IDEA for putting some of these musical ideas down in an easy (for some) format - that can make things for aspiring composers a little easier and offer some respectable IDEAS and such. And come on - if you haven't WASTED $30 bucks on lesser things, then I'd be surprised. 

For ME, these are great. I find them fun, interesting, provide enough theory (which I ALREADY know - I'm not a musical idiot) and plenty of musicality for a wide audience. But everybody has an opinion. Everyone is entitled to it as I said. But just because a worm stands up, doesn't make it a cobra. Just because you bark the loudest doesn't make you a junkyard dog. Don't wave your flag of knowledge in other people's faces. Everyone will notice when it gets torn down. I'm just saying. Nice to know what you know. But it doesn't negate what these recipes do for a whole lot of people in general. I'm sure you already know that. And opinions - like mine as well - don't impress anyone as I see it.

Enough from me. And good for you. Personally I have learned how to enjoy AND appreciate anything from which I can LEARN something different, new or that gives me another avenue of thought and development.

Checking out now. Learn to ENJOY THINGS without trying to make everyone 'look at you'!!! I'm done AND may just be done with this site in general if THIS is the kind of attitude that prevails here and I JUST joined. Crickey. It MIGHT not be worth MY time.

TonyDi


----------



## cqd

We need menus..


----------



## PhilipJohnston

Before rumours start...

...the library disclosure for Recipe 37 _("Workshop of the Demented Clocksmith")_ mistakenly credited Cinematic Studio Series as the percussion used in the examples. This was a typo—fixed now—should have said BBCSO.

(So, _not_ an early sighting of Cinematic Studio Percussion in the wild. Sorry everyone.)


----------



## lgmcben

PhilipJohnston said:


> Before rumours start...
> 
> ...the library disclosure for Recipe 37 _("Workshop of the Demented Clocksmith")_ mistakenly credited Cinematic Studio Series as the percussion used in the examples. This was a typo—fixed now—should have said BBCSO.
> 
> (So, _not_ an early sighting of Cinematic Studio Percussion in the wild. Sorry everyone.)


Poor Philip typing this as Alex pointing a gun to his head


----------



## TonyDeConcini

PhilipJohnston said:


> Before rumours start...
> 
> ...the library disclosure for Recipe 37 _("Workshop of the Demented Clocksmith")_ mistakenly credited Cinematic Studio Series as the percussion used in the examples. This was a typo—fixed now—should have said BBCSO.
> 
> (So, _not_ an early sighting of Cinematic Studio Percussion in the wild. Sorry everyone.)


THANKS however for putting them online as quickly as you did. I ALSO did find a few minor typos - here and there - nothing glaring or of issue. A simple thing as pluralizing a word when it should not have been or such. NO BIG DEAL - I personally didn't get these great files to worry about the occasional typo or mistake in publishing - because you did get them out before you said you would (you did say end of the month of July). And the obvious amount of work it takes to get these ready is bound to be involved. So I for one am grateful for them. And the updates you've made, I've taken note of and saved appropriate changes you've made. THANKS for these great ideas. Sincerely appreciated by many. The rest.......meh!!

Bill


----------



## PhilipJohnston

lgmcben said:


> Poor Philip typing this as Alex pointing a gun to his head


Well, it could have been worse. Could have referenced Cinematic Studio Choirs.


----------



## wahey73

I just got Volume 2 and it really looks (and sounds) great! Thank you so much for all the work you put into this project, really inspiring and helpful. And I already love your sense of humor. Might get Volume 1 too one day


----------



## Alchemedia

@PhilipJohnston Re: "The Wombat Does Not Like The Snow". I'm no expert, however I think you are mistaken. See photo attached. I'll let you know if I find any other bugs.


----------



## PhilipJohnston

I think finding bugs is the only reason that wombat is in the snow in the first place.


----------



## zedmaster

Let's go hands on with one of the new recipes:


----------



## jneebz

zedmaster said:


> Let's go hands on with one of the new recipes:



This probably doesn’t belong in the Commercial thread.


----------



## zedmaster

Didn't find anything against it in the Commercial Announcements guideline post and I think it's quite common to assemble and collect material about the product in its announcement post. I don't have a strong opinion about it, though  The spotlight should be on the developer (Philip in this case), for sure!


----------



## Braveheart

jneebz said:


> This probably doesn’t belong in the Commercial thread.


It’s directly related to the product announced, so I don’t get why there would be any problem.


----------



## SlHarder

When I get in a slump or hit a creative brick wall I take a break by working on a Recipe that at first look had not piqued my interest, a Recipe I doubted I would have much use for. 

And, of course, by trekking unfamiliar ground I learn some things that i can apply to other work. I get both a distraction and an education.

On my first pass through OrchRecipes I "cherry-picked" so that left lots of recipes for followup.

This works for me because I'm a hobbyist with no deadlines.

Orchestration Recipes is a great resource at a great price.


----------



## Evans

I see this as like the difference between A) tasting a dish and thinking, "Heck yeah, I want to mimic that" (similar to listening to other music for inspiration) and B) someone taking the time to remind you of the purpose of each spice (Orchestration Recipes).

In fact, this is far more detailed than most food recipe sites, which typically give you the instructions but don't explain _why _each component is important. "Ingredient X will balance out the sharpness of Ingredient Y and give the dish a slightly sweeter taste."


----------



## Soundbed

I’m pleased there’s no dynamics on the score. I expect to take anything I write with the recipes and develop it in different ways. Dynamics for me are all going to get added “to taste”.


----------



## rudi

Evans said:


> In fact, this is far more detailed than most food recipe sites, which typically give you the instructions but don't explain _why _each component is important. "Ingredient X will balance out the sharpness of Ingredient Y and give the dish a slightly sweeter taste."


Something a bit like this? 

Recipe 01 - Heroic choral bisque with infused pianoforte

The choir uses a mixture of syncopated notes and dissonant harmonies to create a dark, dramatic and driving effect. The upper voices are replicated in the lower voices to re-enforce the effect, By keeping the voice ranges in their mid-registers they give the vocals a powerful, almost elemental quality.

The underlying fast piano arpeggios lend an unsettling and insistent quality to the piece. The bass notes provide a strong accent that emphasises the first and third beat of each measure, adding a solid pulse that anchors and provides a stable foundation for the other rhythms.

The upper strings double the voices, replicating the vocal rhythm to make them even more insistent. They use a similar register, subtly emphasising the dark nature of the vocals.

Finally, the French Horns supply a slower melodic counterpoint. It adds to the drama through the use of long, swelling notes creating a strong sense of progression. Once again, they play in a darker, yet rich register that provides a contrast from the insistent rhythms.


----------



## SlHarder

rudi said:


> Something a bit like this?
> 
> Recipe 01 - Heroic choral bisque with infused pianoforte
> 
> The choir uses a mixture of syncopated notes and dissonant harmonies to create a dark, dramatic and driving effect. The upper voices are replicated in the lower voices to re-enforce the effect, By keeping the vocal ranges in their mid-registers they give the vocals a powerful, alsmost elemental quality.


Yes!

You have succinctly captured the depth and breadth of emotion and detail that lives within 8 bars of music. 

On one hand this overwhelms me as a midi music hobbyist. On the other hand it encourages me to explore and experiment within those 8 bars to the full extent of my limited abilities, I'm compelled to learn more.


----------



## Elmakai

I just purchased both sets. I really enjoy the layout, and all the cooking references. This is great for someone like me who struggles with the actual orchestration part of composing. Well done!


----------



## PeterN

Had to buy these too (as famous inventor of this concept).

Philip must be a real chef, as the chef terminology is not layman terms. The chef terminology is *Chef de Partie* or above. Just to make that clear. Fu.k it, many Chef De Partie may even loose pace.

Great details anyway, with score sheets and explanations! Even example two! Midi files, as mentioned in ground invention, yes.

Lot of work put in, Philip could have started with throwing kitchen porter pizzas on special price with frozen shrimp and dried oregano, it would have sold, but he starts with real mozzarella and fresh basil! Consomme egyptian! Voila!


----------



## zedmaster

I made another hands-on with one of the new vol 2 recipes that Philip made available for free on Youtube. This one shows a more mellow/melancholic/nostalgic quality of the recipes as opposed to the heroic and majestic one. Super great to see the variety of styles that volume 2 offers! Hope this helps those who are still on the fence. This "course" is a gold mine.

Little disclaimer: These videos are created with Philip's permission (and appreciation! :D), as I use those recipes that are visible on Youtube for free anyway.


----------



## PhilipJohnston

Just reminding that the 40% introductory discount ends at *11:59pm PDT, July 31* (around 20 hours from this post).


----------



## ChristianM

Done !


----------



## Soundbed

I have been thinking about ways to use this format/idea for the “development” of musical themes/ideas … more than getting them started. I’m not sure how it would go exactly. But I’d like to have an index of interesting key transitions or mnemonics for borrowed chords and interesting harmonic moves (e.g., various common tone modulations). All of them would have clever names and clear concise instructions like these recipes.
(It wouldn’t have to be limited to harmonic moves. Could be things like rhythmic diminution and augmentation, but I’ve already memorized many of them. It’s the harmonic stuff that’s so rich that I need help remembering and exercising.)
Right now these techniques are scattered around my brain and I don't always recall them when I want them. I’ve been wanting a compendium of these for a while. Some of them have recognizable names already and others have more obscure theory names that I tend to forget. 
(I could add some video examples but this is a commercial thread so I won’t.)


----------



## PhilipJohnston

4 hours left at 40% off. Tick tock tick tock. (That's not a metronome)


----------



## zedmaster

One more hands-on video for the Orchestration Recipes, this time about the recipe for a danger situation with the enemy at our door:


----------



## Soundbed

zedmaster said:


> One more hands-on video for the Orchestration Recipes, this time about the recipe for a danger situation with the enemy at our door:



“Because I only have 25 keys”


----------



## SlHarder

Arn Andersson from Evenant presents concepts in this vid that could easily be used to take an Orchestration Recipe segment and develop it into a full fledged piece. Lots to be learned here for us hobbyists.


----------



## zedmaster

Funny coincidence! I'll actually post a video tomorrow, where I expand an Orchestration Recipe into a full track. Doing the final renders right now. I haven't seen Arn's advice video about expanding a theme yet, but I can say that in my case, it was a pretty straightforward process because the main instrumentation/orchestration parts and even some writing guidelines were already defined by the Orchestration Recipe.


----------



## zedmaster

Following some of your feedback, I’ve transformed one of my most voted Orchestration Recipes-inspired themes into a larger composition. Previously, I created a short theme with the Orchestration Recipe #24 from Vol. 2 (_"Ready the Archers, Bar the Gates"_), where I wrote a short snippet for a *Fantasy Danger Emergency Situation*. 

Let’s find out what this theme has turned into! As mentioned before, thanks to the effective approach of the Orchestration Recipes, it felt rewarding and fun to expand this theme.


----------



## zedmaster

I got asked via DM before, what's the difference between Vol. 1 recipes compared to the new Vol. 2 recipes. I'd say it's a bit more classically oriented and a tiny bit less "film-score-esque" or thematic. At least in the descriptions, though the actual difference in the approach is negligible.

This is made with a Vol. 1 recipe, again one of the free samples available on Youtube.


----------



## Markrs

OrchestrationRecipes: What's next​
A major expansion and new direction for the Orchestration Recipes series. Tiny taste, more info coming. Available 2022.


----------



## ennbr

if only it was being released now and not sometime in 2022


----------



## Alchemedia

ennbr said:


> if only it was being released now and not sometime in 2022


Orchestration Recipes is like Slow Food. Don't rush the chef!


----------



## zedmaster

Can't wait to find out more!


----------



## Markrs

Orchestration Recipes are 40% off for just 48 hours with the code: *recipesfinal2021*

Thanks to @zedmaster for this tip!


----------



## Un01m

Markrs said:


> Orchestration Recipes are 40% off for just 48 hours with the code: *recipesfinal2021*
> 
> Thanks to @zedmaster for this tip!


Thank you very much. It seems I'm late, what a shame.


----------



## waveheavy

I got both sets, and think it's a great teaching tool for orchestration. I have many of libraries you mention. But I have to ask, @PhilipJohnston are you applying EQ in mixing the instrument samples? Did you mix your own audio examples in the recipes, or hired someone to do it?

I've only tried to reproduce Recipe 1 thru 4 so far using my instrument libraries and your MIDI files. Only with 2 of them have I not had to do much EQing to create clarity and separation between the instruments. And the VSL winds I've always found kind of 'honky' and uneven at times. So I'm wondering how you handled those things.


----------



## madfloyd

Which VSL wind product did you find sounded honky?


----------



## waveheavy

madfloyd said:


> Which VSL wind product did you find sounded honky?


mainly the oboes


----------



## PhilipJohnston

waveheavy said:


> I got both sets, and think it's a great teaching tool for orchestration. I have many of libraries you mention. But I have to ask, @PhilipJohnston are you applying EQ in mixing the instrument samples? Did you mix your own audio examples in the recipes, or hired someone to do it?
> 
> I've only tried to reproduce Recipe 1 thru 4 so far using my instrument libraries and your MIDI files. Only with 2 of them have I not had to do much EQing to create clarity and separation between the instruments. And the VSL winds I've always found kind of 'honky' and uneven at times. So I'm wondering how you handled those things.


Because I didn't want recipes to depend on owning particular plugins, mixing on the examples is incredibly minimal—in fact, it's usually out-of-the-box sound. There's no EQ added, and just a single reverb channel, to which all instruments are bussed—wetter libraries then have a lower send than drier libraries, for some very rough and ready blending. My recipe-producing template is very, very simple (less so for what's coming up next year).

Spatialization is trickier though, and does require occasional intervention. Musicians recorded close on a dry soundstage really don't play nicely out-of-the-box with their colleagues who were recorded in Air Studios or Teldex, so I use VSS for placement. I would think that VSS must be using EQ as part of its spatialisation sorcery, so that might be what you're hearing on the VSL samples. 

Otherwise though, it's load-and-go...Orchestration Recipes channel strips look like they engineered by Marie Kondo.


----------



## madfloyd

waveheavy said:


> mainly the oboes


VI or Synchron-ized version?


----------



## madfloyd

PhilipJohnston said:


> Because I didn't want recipes to depend on owning particular plugins, mixing on the examples is incredibly minimal—in fact, it's usually out-of-the-box sound. There's no EQ added, and just a single reverb channel, to which all instruments are bussed—wetter libraries then have a lower send than drier libraries, for some very rough and ready blending. My recipe-producing template is very, very simple (less so for what's coming up next year).
> 
> Spatialization is trickier though, and does require occasional intervention. Musicians recorded close on a dry soundstage really don't play nicely out-of-the-box with their colleagues who were recorded in Air Studios or Teldex, so I use VSS for placement. I would think that VSS must be using EQ as part of its spatialisation sorcery, so that might be what you're hearing on the VSL samples.
> 
> Otherwise though, it's load-and-go...Orchestration Recipes channel strips look like they engineered by Marie Kondo.


VSS?


----------



## DavidRubenstein

I have finished trying out Volume 1, and I am about to start Volume 2.
I noticed that it is very "DAW-oriented". I have tried some of the examples in my DAW, and with some tweaking, gotten great results.

But I have also tried inputting the examples into Sibelius with NotePerformer, and with just a few tiny tweaks (such as a replacement reverb and playing with crescendos/decrescendos), gotten some very nice results. I find this particularly useful, as it is easier for me to input the examples into Sibelius, than into my DAW.


----------



## madfloyd

Why is it easier in Sibelius? What DAW do you use?


----------



## DavidRubenstein

madfloyd said:


> Why is it easier in Sibelius? What DAW do you use?


The DAW I use is Cakewalk. I find it easier in Sibelius for several reasons:
o I can simply enter dynamics and articulations, instead of playing with controllers and using articulation maps in a DAW.
o Step-record in Sibelius is easier than in Cakewalk; they both work, but it's a bit more straight-forward in Sibelius, at least for me.
o NotePerformer does a decent job with phrasing, simply by adding slurs and articulations; A DAW is more versatile, and ultimately can be made to sound much better, but at the cost of extra work and tweaking.

Actually, some of the Orchestration Recipes are a bit easier in a DAW: 
o Recipe #19 requirs "String" samples, not violins, violas, etc. For example, at least one of the recipes requires violins to play below "G".
o NotePerformer does not have good samples for choirs or pianos; so a DAW with decent samples loaded will make it easier. I realize that you can load VST's into Sibelius, but the extra complication takes away from the ease of use of NotePerformer for all instruments.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

madfloyd said:


> VSS?


Virtual Sound Stage 2, my guess.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

madfloyd said:


> VSS?


You can hear/see it here:

edited: Sorry but the forum won't let me post it.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

Recipe 1 & 2: my final music purchases for 2021.

thank you!


----------



## ag75

Do you ever plan on having a bundle deal with these?


----------



## mussnig

Zoot_Rollo said:


> Recipe 1 & 2: my final music purchases for 2021.
> 
> thank you!


Still one more month to go - you sure about that?


----------



## rudi

A link to VSS 2 - if that is the one @PhilipJohnston was referring to: 






parallax-audio







www.parallax-audio.com


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

rudi said:


> A link to VSS 2 - if that is the one @PhilipJohnston was referring to:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> parallax-audio
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.parallax-audio.com


Anyone successfully buy VSS 2 recently?


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

mussnig said:


> Still one more month to go - you sure about that?


okaaay, one more reverb.


----------



## Maximvs

Zoot_Rollo said:


> Anyone successfully buy VSS 2 recently?


I wrote to the company many times without getting any reply!!! Many people are complaining about this and we feel this product unfortunately is no longer supported. I much prefer investing in software that I know they are going to give you support when you need it and future updates.

The good news is that you can try it for free as long as you want with all the features enabled but the only drawback is that you cannot save your settings.

Cheers,

Max


----------



## proxima

DavidRubenstein said:


> Actually, some of the Orchestration Recipes are a bit easier in a DAW:
> o Recipe #19 requirs "String" samples, not violins, violas, etc. For example, at least one of the recipes requires violins to play below "G".


It seems you're using the examples _as_ the recipes, and they are not. Of course, you can do that if you want, but the course is clearly designed for you to write (and often play in) each part of your own composition. The performance element of course lends itself to DAWs; this gives practice doing what many composers end up doing as a primary input method.

Again, if you found something that works for you, great. Yesterday when figuring out a 5-voice chord progression for harp, I used step input and "q-flam" in Logic to easily arpeggiate them.


----------



## DavidRubenstein

proxima said:


> It seems you're using the examples _as_ the recipes, and they are not. Of course, you can do that if you want, but the course is clearly designed for you to write (and often play in) each part of your own composition. The performance element of course lends itself to DAWs; this gives practice doing what many composers end up doing as a primary input method.
> 
> Again, if you found something that works for you, great. Yesterday when figuring out a 5-voice chord progression for harp, I used step input and "q-flam" in Logic to easily arpeggiate them.


Well, almost. I use the examples as starting points. That is, I enter the recipes as written, then I extend them to make them longer and more like a paragraph, rather than just a sentence.


----------



## proxima

DavidRubenstein said:


> Well, almost. I use the examples as starting points. That is, I enter the recipes as written, then I extend them to make them longer and more like a paragraph, rather than just a sentence.


Very nice. I often struggle with turning an 8 bar idea into a full piece, and I wouldn't have thought to use OR primarily for working on that. Cheers!


----------



## waveheavy

madfloyd said:


> VI or Synchron-ized version?


old VI version


----------



## waveheavy

DavidRubenstein said:


> Well, almost. I use the examples as starting points. That is, I enter the recipes as written, then I extend them to make them longer and more like a paragraph, rather than just a sentence.


But still, you should actually just use the recipes as a template based on their themes, and write new compositions from scratch. You wouldn't want to get into copywrite issues with using the notes that Phlilip wrote. That'sl called plagiarism. (no offense, just stating facts)


----------



## DavidRubenstein

waveheavy said:


> But still, you should actually just use the recipes as a template based on their themes, and write new compositions from scratch. You wouldn't want to get into copywrite issues with using the notes that Phlilip wrote. That'sl called plagiarism. (no offense, just stating facts)


Of course. That goes without saying--I would never distribute the tracks. I use them simply as references, for my own education.


----------



## Macrawn

I think these are great. I like the approach of getting to a certain sound and the various ways to get there. 

These are great exercises and are not short cuts as I saw someone suggest. They get you familiar with combinations that sound nice together and give certain moods/ feelings that you can alter or draw from later as ideas. It's a nice fresh way to approach this. Well worth it.


----------



## RSK

Excellent material, Phillip. I'm getting a lot of use (and enjoymnet) out of it.


----------



## Yogevs

Trying to ask again - I would love to have a recipes series related to music theory and not just orchestration


----------



## bvaughn0402

Wasn't there supposed to be a new product in Jan?


----------



## ennbr

bvaughn0402 said:


> Wasn't there supposed to be a new product in Jan?


I was trying to recall what was said if it was January or the beginning of the year that could extend the date beyond January


----------



## Evans

bvaughn0402 said:


> Wasn't there supposed to be a new product in Jan?





ennbr said:


> I was trying to recall what was said if it was January or the beginning of the year that could extend the date beyond January


In a thread about a sale for volumes 1 and 2, Philip posted the following:


> *No further sales then until after the launch of the expansion, some time in Q1-Q2, 2022.*


Which I would assume means it's estimated to be within the first half of the year.


----------



## davidson

@PhilipJohnston Is there any chance we could have an audio only section added to OR1, the same as it is with OR2?


----------



## PhilipJohnston

davidson said:


> @PhilipJohnston Is there any chance we could have an audio only section added to OR1, the same as it is with OR2?


Extremely good chance - I've just added it  Many thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## davidson

PhilipJohnston said:


> Extremely good chance - I've just added it  Many thanks for the suggestion.


Fantastic!


----------



## Markrs




----------



## Yogevs

This looks amazing - and exactly what I was hoping for. Instant buy for me (I hope there will be a loyalty discount for owners of the first two packs)


----------



## blaggins

Dang this is more than I had hoped for! I'm stoked.


----------



## aeliron

Yogevs said:


> This looks amazing - and exactly what I was hoping for. Instant buy for me (I hope there will be a loyalty discount for owners of the first two packs)


Or even one pack ...


----------



## Yogevs

aeliron said:


> Or even one pack ...


They should pay double! Traitors....


----------



## Martin S

Has @PhilipJohnston now become a Pyke Syndicate SPICE-runner ?!? 😳😳😁

Joking aside; Vol.3 is an insta-buy from me 👍


----------



## madfloyd

Yogevs said:


> This looks amazing - and exactly what I was hoping for. Instant buy for me (I hope there will be a loyalty discount for owners of the first two packs)


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the cost for a single volume a mere $25? This feels embarrassingly low to me. I already feel like I'm stealing.


----------



## Markrs

madfloyd said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the cost for a single volume a mere $25? This feels embarrassingly low to me. I already feel like I'm stealing.


Currently $49 but there have been sales before Just not frequently. The last sale was 40$ off (this was back in November)


----------



## madfloyd

Markrs said:


> Currently $49 but there have been sales before Just not frequently. The last sale was 40$ off (this was back in November)


Ahh. Perhaps the intro price was $25?


----------



## Markrs

madfloyd said:


> Ahh. Perhaps the intro price was $25?


I think it was $30 which is an amazing price for the quality of the learning material you get


----------



## Haakond

The great thing about these courses, is that it is straight to the point. It gives you a set of tools that is so easy to pick up and use right away.


----------



## Proximus

Just noticed Vol 1-2 are 30$ again, until April 19 apparently. I picked up Vol 2.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Proximus said:


> until April 19 apparently.


Where did you see that? And thanks for the heads up!


----------



## Proximus

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Where did you see that? And thanks for the heads up!











Orchestration Recipes 2


Instrumental combinations for DAW composers, Volume 2 is more commercial in focus, with recipes targeting specific moods & scenes. Includes recipes 22-42, with all videos, scores, MIDI files and Chef's Notes, and scores.




orchestrationrecipes.thinkific.com


----------



## PhilipJohnston

Volume 3 is live  - https://orchestrationrecipes.com
New preview up at the website.







*Launch sale: 40% off all collections*
Get your recipes at orchestrationrecipes.com

*2 hours of fully narrated videos*
Walkthroughs, illustrations and loads of fresh musical examples to explore, in a new, brisk, fully narrated format.

*Packed with orchestrated examples & ideas to try*
Start with the videos. Practice building versions of your own, until you don’t _need_ the videos. Then the sound is yours, to summon, whenever you need it.

*Your sample libraries are fine*
VSL, Spitfire, EastWest, OrchestralTools, Cinesamples, Samplemodelling, Cinematic Studio Series...it doesn't matter. The whole point of recipes is that they work with whatever you've got.

*Questions?*
Email Philip Johnston


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Purchased, obviously.


----------



## Michael Antrum

Obvs.


----------



## proxima

Instant buy. No other teaching product gets me writing as well as these, especially when I'm feeling uncreative. 

Sadly this series more expensive than the sticker price - vol 1 enticed me to buy CSW, because it made playing with woodwinds a lot more fun. 

Thank you!


----------



## pcohen12

Congrats on the release, @PhilipJohnston! Vols 1 and 2 are SO good and I can't wait to dive into 3.


----------



## zedmaster

*Heavy breathing*


----------



## Gingerbread

Bought!


----------



## gyprock

Congratulations on Vol 3. This is an example of superb teaching. It is inspiring, entertaining, excellently crafted and keeps you motivated while giving you the ability to speak in your own voice. It breaks rules intentionally in order to achieve a specific sound and mood. This raises the bar that other digital content creators should learn from.


----------



## Markrs

Instant purchase! Can’t wait to get into it.


----------



## muziksculp

@PhilipJohnston 

Congratulations, and Thanks for the VOL. 3 Release.


----------



## jazzman7

Markrs said:


> Instant purchase! Can’t wait to get into it.


Instabuy here too! Love a good seasoning


----------



## emilio_n

Got it!
Congratulations @PhilipJohnston looks like another instant buy bestseller!


----------



## Virtuoso

Fantastic stuff! So well presented and explained. 

I would love Love *LOVE* a jazz harmony one of these!


----------



## Gauss

Instabuy! Been waiting since the first Teaser.


----------



## wahey73

Wonderful new course, thank you Philip. I really enjoyed Vol. 2, can't wait to study Vol. 3 now


----------



## dyvoid

Congrats Philip! Just went through the first section and it's once again fantastic. It's hard to find content as good as yours. Thanks for educating and inspiring so many people!


----------



## BigMal

This is such a genius idea. I found vols 1&2 really inspiring, and will be getting vol 3 immediately.

This series has also made me look at the baked in orchestration in Opus Hollywood Orchestrator in a different way too. I'd previously seen this as really, kinda cheating, but largely because of Orchestration Recipes, I now see it as a very complementary educational tool. Instead of using the pre-baked (wonder where I got the cooking analogy from!) orchestrations as part of a track, and feeling like I've totally faked it, like painting by numbers, I can isolate the individual sections, look at what instruments were used, what articulations and rhythms, and now reproduce that sound myself. It's very complementary to the principle behind Orchestration Recipes, but you get there in a different way.

One immediate lesson from this, is that I'm usually guilty of over-writing: if I want a big sound, I imagine there has to be lots of different instruments, with lots of harmonies, all happening at the same time. In reality, when I break down some of the big orchestrations in Opus Orchestrator, it's often much simpler than I'd imagined, and the demo version of Orchestral Recipes, highlighting bisected tenths, is a great example of the same thing: large, full sound from judicious combinations.

So, I never use the pre-baked orchestrations in anything I write - that just feels deeply unsatisfying, no matter how impressive it might sound - but I do use them to learn, and for inspiration. Combining this with Orchestration Recipes vol 3, feels like a good approach, that I'm learning a lot from.


----------



## BigMal

... also, if I ever want to laugh at myself, and my pathetic GAS addiction, I go back and watch the trailer for vol 1, and sigh in a resigned, 'yup, that's me' sort of way! I suspect I may not be alone!

If you haven't seen it, watch, and see if you recognise yourself!


----------



## 18dBFS

And instabuy for all three recipes


----------



## Yogevs

Purchased


----------



## VVEremita

BigMal said:


> This is such a genius idea. I found vols 1&2 really inspiring, and will be getting vol 3 immediately.
> 
> This series has also made me look at the baked in orchestration in Opus Hollywood Orchestrator in a different way too. I'd previously seen this as really, kinda cheating, but largely because of Orchestration Recipes, I now see it as a very complementary educational tool. Instead of using the pre-baked (wonder where I got the cooking analogy from!) orchestrations as part of a track, and feeling like I've totally faked it, like painting by numbers, I can isolate the individual sections, look at what instruments were used, what articulations and rhythms, and now reproduce that sound myself. It's very complementary to the principle behind Orchestration Recipes, but you get there in a different way.
> 
> One immediate lesson from this, is that I'm usually guilty of over-writing: if I want a big sound, I imagine there has to be lots of different instruments, with lots of harmonies, all happening at the same time. In reality, when I break down some of the big orchestrations in Opus Orchestrator, it's often much simpler than I'd imagined, and the demo version of Orchestral Recipes, highlighting bisected tenths, is a great example of the same thing: large, full sound from judicious combinations.
> 
> So, I never use the pre-baked orchestrations in anything I write - that just feels deeply unsatisfying, no matter how impressive it might sound - but I do use them to learn, and for inspiration. Combining this with Orchestration Recipes vol 3, feels like a good approach, that I'm learning a lot from.


I just got Composer Cloud and use the Orchestrator in the same way: As an educational tool. It is even possible to export individual MIDI tracks to easily re-orchestrate elements of it with other libraries.

Edit and PS: I just realized this is a commercial thread. I hope I didn't cross the line with discussing other developers. Otherwise I'll delete it. Of course Orchestration Recipes offers far more than just reconstructing from libraries, so I think it is complementary.


----------



## Proximus

Thanks for these recipes, they are great! Will Volume 3 be discounted until April 19 as well?


----------



## FabIV

PhilipJohnston said:


> Volume 3 is live  - https://orchestrationrecipes.com
> New preview up at the website.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Launch sale: 40% off all collections*
> Get your recipes at orchestrationrecipes.com
> 
> *2 hours of fully narrated videos*
> Walkthroughs, illustrations and loads of fresh musical examples to explore, in a new, brisk, fully narrated format.
> 
> *Packed with orchestrated examples & ideas to try*
> Start with the videos. Practice building versions of your own, until you don’t _need_ the videos. Then the sound is yours, to summon, whenever you need it.
> 
> *Your sample libraries are fine*
> VSL, Spitfire, EastWest, OrchestralTools, Cinesamples, Samplemodelling, Cinematic Studio Series...it doesn't matter. The whole point of recipes is that they work with whatever you've got.
> 
> *Questions?*
> Email Philip Johnston



Hello Philip,
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Your products are amazing and a steal for that price. Was an instant buy for me.


----------



## mallux

Really enjoyed working through Vol 1 this February, so I'm more than happy to buy Volumes 2 & 3, especially at this price. Looking forward to getting stuck in this evening.


----------



## blaggins

Vol. 3 is bought. I don't even have time to get into it right now, but I've enjoyed Vol 1 and 2 so much that I didn't really even have to think about it. Great stuff @PhilipJohnston


----------



## PhilipJohnston

Proximus said:


> Thanks for these recipes, they are great! Will Volume 3 be discounted until April 19 as well?


Yes - 40% discount is for everything at the site, including Volume 3.


----------



## tc9000

i love orchestration recipies. please make more.


----------



## tc9000

the price is right, the content is superb, but most of all, the philosophy is spot on for me: knowledge, not more duplication of what i already have.


----------



## cqd

I just watched the first recipe there..Great stuff..


----------



## Sulblk

Love the lessons. I have gained so much easy to understand lessons, in both Vol 1 and Vol 2. But I believe Vol 3 will be my utmost favorite. Thank you for this! Sunken minors! love it.


----------



## PhilipJohnston

*UPDATE*

Just a quick note letting everyone know that I have been reading the feedback both here, and the parallel thread. Glad to see that the response has been mostly positive, wanted to take moment to address some of the suggested improvements—I'm busy putting together an update that I think a lot of users will like.

Figuring out the ratio of notated examples vs piano roll is always a tricky needle to thread—I want the course being accessible, even if the person watching it is not a Classical Music Nerd like me, and figured that the common tongue for DAW composers would be piano roll, and keyboard top-down shots. Hence, lots of both. 

However.

There are enough "Hey Recipe-Dude, where are my notated examples???" queries that I'm not convinced I've got those settings right for everyone, so I'm putting together a free update (Orchestration Recipes 3.1?)—it will be a new section that appears in everyone's video library and will contain traditionally notated versions of the information you need. I'll timestamp them, so that they correlate to the relevant section of each video; you can print them out and keep them handy. 

There's just one of me here, and a fair bit of notating and formatting to get through (particularly for those examples that I didn't record with a metronome, and then used plenty of rubato...), I'll add them as I complete each section. 

I'm also looking at whether it might be possible to reframe some of the piano roll shots to include the reference keyboard (I rarely use that reference, but acknowledge that lots of people do!). That I will tackle second though. 

With thanks for those who have offered feedback so far. Most of the additions and improvements to Volumes 1 and 2 came about from user suggestions; as the updates happen, they simply appear in your Orchestration Recipes library, and are yours immediately and permanently thereafter. 

The new update section has already been added to everyone's OR3 library, but as a placeholder...you can watch it fill up bit by bit. 

Now, to Dorico I go...


----------



## cqd

Must say Philip, I think this new direction you took with these is great..looking forward to 4..


----------



## BigMal

PhilipJohnston said:


> *UPDATE*
> 
> Just a quick note letting everyone know that I have been reading the feedback both here, and the parallel thread. Glad to see that the response has been mostly positive, wanted to take moment to address some of the suggested improvements—I'm busy putting together an update that I think a lot of users will like.
> 
> Figuring out the ratio of notated examples vs piano roll is always a tricky needle to thread—I want the course being accessible, even if the person watching it is not a Classical Music Nerd like me, and figured that the common tongue for DAW composers would be piano roll, and keyboard top-down shots. Hence, lots of both.
> 
> However.
> 
> There are enough "Hey Recipe-Dude, where are my notated examples???" queries that I'm not convinced I've got those settings right for everyone, so I'm putting together a free update (Orchestration Recipes 3.1?)—it will be a new section that appears in everyone's video library and will contain traditionally notated versions of the information you need. I'll timestamp them, so that they correlate to the relevant section of each video; you can print them out and keep them handy.
> 
> There's just one of me here, and a fair bit of notating and formatting to get through (particularly for those examples that I didn't record with a metronome, and then used plenty of rubato...), I'll add them as I complete each section.
> 
> I'm also looking at whether it might be possible to reframe some of the piano roll shots to include the reference keyboard (I rarely use that reference, but acknowledge that lots of people do!). That I will tackle second though.
> 
> With thanks for those who have offered feedback so far. Most of the additions and improvements to Volumes 1 and 2 came about from user suggestions; as the updates happen, they simply appear in your Orchestration Recipes library, and are yours immediately and permanently thereafter.
> 
> The new update section has already been added to everyone's OR3 library, but as a placeholder...you can watch it fill up bit by bit.
> 
> Now, to Dorico I go...


Wow, now THAT's listening to your customers! I'm not one of the ones this will benefit: I actually prefer the piano roll, and maybe I'm the type of non-classically-trained DAW composer you had in mind, for whom the piano roll is much more accessible, so you completely hit the mark with me. But the fact that you were right for some of your customers, but not others it seems, and you're willing to put an update like this in, is truly impressive. Maybe those like me will even learn something too from this, having the notation alongside the piano roll, with your narrative. Great stuff!

On another note, I have to comment on how funny the videos are! I never thought I would find myself laughing out loud at a musical theory educational video, but no one delivers this like you! I love your dry sense of humour. Definitely something for me to learn from this too, as to how to teach my (non-music) students - though I have to think of how I can adapt a cooking recipe metaphor to neuroscience!! Hmm...


----------



## BigMal

Also, for those commenting that the piano roll isn't useful, without the piano to the left to show the notes and provide context: isn't the use of this that Phillip is showing the relationship between the notes, and how they change, whereas exactly which note is being played isn't the point? To me, when he shows the piano roll, it's a great way of getting an overview of how the overall pattern changes throughout the passage.

Please don't drop the piano roll from future editions Phillip; based on the feedback, it sounds like combining both is the best way to go. Just wouldn't want you to misinterpret the feedback asking for the notation, as a replacement for the piano roll - the non 'Classical music nerds' need you too!


----------



## ralphbar

PhilipJohnston said:


> *UPDATE*
> 
> Just a quick note letting everyone know that I have been reading the feedback both here, and the parallel thread. Glad to see that the response has been mostly positive, wanted to take moment to address some of the suggested improvements—I'm busy putting together an update that I think a lot of users will like.
> 
> Figuring out the ratio of notated examples vs piano roll is always a tricky needle to thread—I want the course being accessible, even if the person watching it is not a Classical Music Nerd like me, and figured that the common tongue for DAW composers would be piano roll, and keyboard top-down shots. Hence, lots of both.
> 
> However.
> 
> There are enough "Hey Recipe-Dude, where are my notated examples???" queries that I'm not convinced I've got those settings right for everyone, so I'm putting together a free update (Orchestration Recipes 3.1?)—it will be a new section that appears in everyone's video library and will contain traditionally notated versions of the information you need. I'll timestamp them, so that they correlate to the relevant section of each video; you can print them out and keep them handy.
> 
> There's just one of me here, and a fair bit of notating and formatting to get through (particularly for those examples that I didn't record with a metronome, and then used plenty of rubato...), I'll add them as I complete each section.
> 
> I'm also looking at whether it might be possible to reframe some of the piano roll shots to include the reference keyboard (I rarely use that reference, but acknowledge that lots of people do!). That I will tackle second though.
> 
> With thanks for those who have offered feedback so far. Most of the additions and improvements to Volumes 1 and 2 came about from user suggestions; as the updates happen, they simply appear in your Orchestration Recipes library, and are yours immediately and permanently thereafter.
> 
> The new update section has already been added to everyone's OR3 library, but as a placeholder...you can watch it fill up bit by bit.
> 
> Now, to Dorico I go...


Imagine a world where every supplier offered products of this quality, at sensible prices, backed up with such exemplary customer service….. well done! Keep going - I’ll buy everything you release.


----------



## Julius29

PhilipJohnston said:


> Yes - 40% discount is for everything at the site, including Volume 3.


Hi Philip,
I just wanted to let you know that IMO this Volume 3 course is by far the
most instructive, well thought and even funny orchestration tutorial
I've ever seen. And believe me: I know a lot of them - from Udemy,
Groove3, MacProVideo ... you name it.
Don't forget to keep making more of them.


----------



## davidson

@PhilipJohnston An alternative (or addition) to the keys on the left idea would be to increase the contrast for the black keys on the piano roll. Personally, I'd find this a more helpful addition than having keys on the left.


----------



## PhilipJohnston

davidson said:


> @PhilipJohnston An alternative (or addition) to the keys on the left idea would be to increase the contrast for the black keys on the piano roll. Personally, I'd find this a more helpful addition than having keys on the left.


If anyone knows a trick for Logic Pro where I could make that happen, I'd love to hear—I've used a brilliant add-on called Logic- Pro Colorizer in the past, but couldn't figure out how to do what you've described. 

(I'd make the change in my interface immediately...not just for future videos, but for my own use!)


----------



## AlexSonicsMusic

Thank you, Philip for this absolutely amazing work. All three volumes are classy and your way of breaking down things is extremely instructional. Thank you


----------



## mussnig

PhilipJohnston said:


> If anyone knows a trick for Logic Pro where I could make that happen, I'd love to hear—I've used a brilliant add-on called Logic- Pro Colorizer in the past, but couldn't figure out how to do what you've described.
> 
> (I'd make the change in my interface immediately...not just for future videos, but for my own use!)



You could probably do it while editing the video (e.g. with color masks). Haven't looked at Volume 3 yet, so I don't know how much work that would be (wanted to finish Volume 2 first - I still have a couple of recipes left).


----------



## R10k

I just had a watch of Volume 3, sunken minors - brilliant. Great tips and a dash of humour as well.


----------



## Craig Duke

Vol. 3 is a wonderful addition to the series. I don't think Vol. 3 suffers for lack of music notation. In many cases, I think the graphics of the piano roll communicate the structure of each lesson more clearly than traditional notation esp. considering the static nature of the harmony.


@PhilipJohnston 's work remind me of what are called Software Design Patterns. This area of object-oriented SW research began in the 1990s and is based on the 1970's ideas of building architect Christopher Alexander. Alexander said: “Each pattern describes a problem or situation which occurs over and over again in our building environment and then describes the core of the solution (pattern) to that problem in such a way that you can use this solution (pattern) a million times over, without ever doing it in the same way twice.”


----------



## Rich4747

I like the idea, the presentation, and the fact I am already using some of these concepts in my work. The desire for a full rack of spice is real. Naming and presenting in a way that helps me to remember the techniques is the way.


----------



## bFooz

PhilipJohnston said:


> If anyone knows a trick for Logic Pro where I could make that happen, I'd love to hear—I've used a brilliant add-on called Logic- Pro Colorizer in the past, but couldn't figure out how to do what you've described.


This can be done in the video editor. In Premiere Pro, you can for instance add an adjustment layer clip on top of each piano roll clip and put a Lumetri on that and just increase the contrast.


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen

@PhilipJohnston Can you take me off the mailing list for O.R., please? There is no option for this in my account on the O.R. homepage. Thanks.


----------



## Markrs

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> @PhilipJohnston Can you take me off the mailing list for O.R., please? There is no option for this in my account on the O.R. homepage. Thanks.


Isn’t there normally a unsubscribe link in the emails?


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen

Markrs said:


> Isn’t there normally a unsubscribe link in the emails?


Yeah, normally there is in e-mails like this. But there doesn't seem to be an unsubscribe link in the OR mails. I checked the last two sent to me.


----------



## Markrs

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Yeah, normally there is in e-mails like this. But there doesn't seem to be an unsubscribe link in the OR mails. I checked the last two sent to me.


That is unusual, and certainly something Philip might want to look into


----------



## Martin S

Loved volume 1 & 2.

Vol 3 is an instabuy. Thanks a lot, Philip. Keep ‘em coming


----------



## BigMal

I can't get enough of this vol 3 - I'm absolutely loving it! The main thing I'm finding is, my fingers are finding new, unfamiliar shapes all the time. I'm a very limited, self-taught pianist, who so heavily depends on the chords of the minor blues scale, that what I'm going to improvise feels so predictable even before I sit down and turn the bloody thing on! I needed something to get me thinking differently, and THIS IS IT! Whole new progressions are coming out of me that I wouldn't have otherwise generated, but that also feel familiar enough that the structure has a sufficiently recognisable feel to communicate an emotion or style. It's also communicated in a way that requires little assumptions in terms of prior theory knowledge. Thank you Phillip, this is just wonderful!


----------



## rrichard63

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Yeah, normally there is in e-mails like this. But there doesn't seem to be an unsubscribe link in the OR mails. I checked the last two sent to me.


I'm pretty sure that in some countries the absence of an unsubscribe link is illegal. I suspect that refers to the sender's country, not the recipient's.

Philip is obviously not using a list manager like iContact or Mail Chimp. This makes compliance with such rules more difficult.


----------



## PhilipJohnston

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> @PhilipJohnston Can you take me off the mailing list for O.R., please? There is no option for this in my account on the O.R. homepage. Thanks.


Hi Hendrik - just letting you know I've seen this. Unaware that an unsubscribe link was not somewhere, I _hate_ that when I get emails.

The course hosting platform I'm using is Thinkific; I'm careful only to contact students a few times each year, but when I do, I use Thinkific's inbuilt student contact system. I've reached out to them to ask how to enable unsubscribe.

With apologies!


----------



## FrozenIcicle

Finished the course. Next one please!


----------



## proxima

As I work through vol 3, my question is: why aren't there widely accepted terms for these ideas?


----------



## Evans

rrichard63 said:


> I suspect that refers to the sender's country, not the recipient's.


It's actually about the recipient! It's a matter of communications consent (and data privacy), aimed toward protecting the individual who is receiving content, and not about who or where the sender is.

If a US-based company is emailing someone in England, for example, they must follow regulations set by England for applicable individuals. That's kind of an oversimplification, but it applies for many forms of communication and data handling.

Basically, "if you want to engage with people in _our _country, you must obey _our _consumer protection laws." Even just one customer in the EU means a US company (just reusing the example) must find a way to comply with GDPR.

It seems like my most recent Orchestration Recipes emails came through the Thinkific platform. I'm actually a bit amazed that any platform out there exists without automatically dropping in an unsubscribe link.


----------



## DavidRubenstein

proxima said:


> As I work through vol 3, my question is: why aren't there widely accepted terms for these ideas?


I have gone through the first video, titled "Dislocated Tethers". The concepts are closely related to "Neo-Riemannian" theory. The so-called "Tethers" are compound Riemannian transformations. The "dislocated" component involves skipping around in a Tonnetz diagram. There is a large literature on this subject.


----------



## aeliron

DavidRubenstein said:


> I have gone through the first video, titled "Dislocated Tethers". The concepts are closely related to "Neo-Riemannian" theory. The so-called "Tethers" are compound Riemannian transformations. The "dislocated" component involves skipping around in a Tonnetz diagram. There is a large literature on this subject.


Dang. You beat me to it.

ok. Maybe not.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

I personally appreciate Philip's naming conventions - much easier to remember than the academic definition in my opinion.

Looking forward to the future chapters - certainly has been fun to write using these concepts.


----------



## proxima

DavidRubenstein said:


> I have gone through the first video, titled "Dislocated Tethers". The concepts are closely related to "Neo-Riemannian" theory. The so-called "Tethers" are compound Riemannian transformations. The "dislocated" component involves skipping around in a Tonnetz diagram. There is a large literature on this subject.


Ah, well, no wonder then. I found "Hollywood Harmony" to be unnecessarily verbose, if it's any indication of the state of the literature. For a field (cinematic-style music) devoted to expressing emotion, the nomenclature there is rather...uninviting.


----------



## BigMal

Oh wow, bisected tenths! Maybe my favourite yet! Instant professionally orchestrated pieces, straight from the jar! This is the most fun I've had playing new structures in a long time! Goodbye minor blues scale - you served me well, but I'm moving on! I have more sophisticated friends now, and we express ourselves more deeply!


----------



## Jacob Fanto

proxima said:


> Ah, well, no wonder then. I found "Hollywood Harmony" to be unnecessarily verbose, if it's any indication of the state of the literature. For a field (cinematic-style music) devoted to expressing emotion, the nomenclature there is rather...uninviting.


Sure, but Hollywood Harmony was not made to be an easily digestible composer toolkit like Orchestration Recipes is. Of course I've learned loads of tips from it but its aim is focused largely around film score analysis rather than composition.


----------



## FabIV

Hey @PhilipJohnston,
I recently finished some of your recipes and have a question to your "bisected 10th" section (hope it is ok to post it here).
I stumbled a little about the voice leading. Since most theories would say that parallel fifth are a no go (for several reasons) I just wanted to know...What makes it different in this case?
Would a lot of musicians still say that the bisected 10th are bad writing?
I mean it sounds good and I totally get the point of the principle, just would like to know how this would be assesed in the musical world :D.
Thanks in advance and have a nice day


----------



## BigMal

I have a related, but tangential question Phillip: where would you like us to ask questions that pertain to the material in Orchestration Recipes, so that we don't risk being unfair to you, and giving away the content by the nature of the questions? 

Do you plan for a forum on the Orchestration Recipes website, or perhaps a Discord? 

If not, Kevin Kuschel @zedmaster has recently started up a Discord channel that is establishing a nice community - can channels in a Discord be password protected, so that you could limit it to official users, I don't know? Or perhaps a guest appearance there, for a Q&A, with pre-supplied questions to avoid time-zone clashes? Might be fun?

Here on VI-C, this goes to a much larger audience, and just want to ensure that while your material is sparking a lot of questions, for me and I'm sure others, your IP should be protected. Do you have a preferred way to interact for follow up questions?


----------



## BigMal

By the way, @FabIV, not intending to imply that your question did jeopardise Phillip's IP; your question just tangentially sparked something I'd been thinking about.


----------



## FabIV

BigMal said:


> By the way, @FabIV, not intending to imply that your question did jeopardise Phillip's IP.


I tried my best to keep the contend secret :D but your question would still have been the better option 🙃


----------



## Jotto

FabIV said:


> Hey @PhilipJohnston,
> I recently finished some of your recipes and have a question to your "bisected 10th" section (hope it is ok to post it here).
> I stumbled a little about the voice leading. Since most theories would say that parallel fifth are a no go (for several reasons) I just wanted to know...What makes it different in this case?
> Would a lot of musicians still say that the bisected 10th are bad writing?
> I mean it sounds good and I totally get the point of the principle, just would like to know how this would be assesed in the musical world :D.
> Thanks in advance and have a nice day


Im not Philip …but parallell fifths is a wonderfull sound. Its not recomended if you e.g want independent voices because fifths tends to melt together. Other than that it sounds very nice and is used a lot in various styles:


----------



## FabIV

Jotto said:


> Im not Philip …but parallell fifths is a wonderfull sound. Its not recomended if you e.g want independent voices because fifths tends to melt together. Other than that it sounds very nice and is used a lot in various styles:


Hey Jotto, 
Thanks for the answer. Tbh what you explained is what made me ask my question :D
I think parallel fifth are a controversial topic anyway. Harmonically they blend together perfectly since its a the first different note in the harmonic series.
However what I understand is that this is the problem: It blends in too smooth.
The voice leading is highlighted in this section (about 9:20) Would love to know what makes it different in this case :D


----------



## Anthony

FabIV said:


> ... Would a lot of musicians still say that the bisected 10th are bad writing?
> *I mean it sounds good* and I totally get the point of the principle, *just would like to know how this would be assesed in the musical world* ...


The _only_ rule in music that matters: if it _sounds_ good, then it _is_ good.

Assessments from the "musical world" are not necessary.

Cheers...


----------



## Martin S

Stack some fifths and fourths, play around with it and have your mind blown. The ‘no parallel fifths/fourths‘ myth is the worst musical advice I’ve ever heard. Jazz pianists/guitarists/soloists/composers/arrangers are smacking down parallel fifths and fourths all over the place…

So if you like the sound of it, keep exploring


----------



## AlainTH

Anthony said:


> The _only_ rule in music that matters: if it _sounds_ good, then it _is_ good.
> 
> Assessments from the "musical world" are not necessary.
> 
> Cheers...


Also understand 'why' is useful for curious people and can help or give directions at 'inspiration'. That is all the meaning of practice and theory in all domains.


----------



## FabIV

AlainTH said:


> Also understand 'why' is useful for curious people and can help or give directions at 'inspiration'. That is all the meaning of practice and theory in all domains.


Nothing more to add 🤗
There are reasons why parallel fifth were „forbidden“ and there is a reason why they are used now again.
The only thing I wanted to know is, if there is something that makes this voice leading better, since i do mot see the reason but would like to understand.


----------



## PhilipJohnston

*UPDATE (and giveaway!)*

Just letting everyone know that the requested *score-based references* have all been added to Orchestration Recipes 3—look for the new *Downloads section* at the bottom of the chapter list. 

I've also added *closed captions* to all the videos—you can toggle these on or off, and they're searchable, in case you're looking to jump to something specific inside a video. 

And in case you missed Kevin Kuschel's review video & giveaway, there are still a few days left if you're looking to score yourself a free copy of Orchestration Recipes 3.


----------



## jneebz

PhilipJohnston said:


> *UPDATE (and giveaway!)*
> 
> Just letting everyone know that the requested *score-based references* have all been added to Orchestration Recipes 3—look for the new *Downloads section* at the bottom of the chapter list.
> 
> I've also added *closed captions* to all the videos—you can toggle these on or off, and they're searchable, in case you're looking to jump to something specific inside a video.
> 
> And in case you missed Kevin Kuschel's review video & giveaway, there are still a few days left if you're looking to score yourself a free copy of Orchestration Recipes 3.



Talk about going above and beyond….thank you for this!!!


----------



## fduncan

Thank you very much for the CC, very helpful as english is not my native tongue


----------



## zedmaster

What a dude!


----------



## julzantoine

Hello. I just discovered the orchestration recipes serie (i've bought the 2nd one). It's a great idea and the content and the way it's done is really enjoyable. The recipes remain me the sonuscore's orchestrator, available in The Orchestra or EW Hollywood. I guess it is the kind of recipes that have been used for such tools. It makes me want to analyse the orchestrator's recipes to extend my universe of possibilities ! 
@PhilipJohnston : i just felt a bit disapointed by the lack of informations about the content on the website (to help me to make my choice). Some online teaching tools provide the possibility to have a free lesson and/or to see everything which is still locked in the course pathway. It is more about marketing than music, but it may be a usefull tool to convince people to buy, don't you think?


----------



## BigMal

Oh, are you in luck @julzantoine !

The first video below is an example from one of the sessions from Vol 2, that Phillip provides. There are many others on his channel here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjXaY8BdoBhMfs09cVnMK3w/videos

This 2nd video below is just one of SIX that Kevin Kuschel (@zedmaster) did in his 'Let's Orchestrate' series, in agreement with Phillip, as I understand it. Check this out, and the others - the combination of Orchestral Recipes and Kevin's YouTube and/or his discord channel (https://discord.com/channels/953889446267322378/953935191607504906) is such great combination.

If you're on the fence about Vol 3, check out the 3rd video below by Kevin - don't hesitate, this is the best one in my opinion. Hope these help.


----------



## julzantoine

BigMal said:


> Oh, are you in luck @julzantoine !
> 
> The first video below is an example from one of the sessions from Vol 2, that Phillip provides. There are many others on his channel here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjXaY8BdoBhMfs09cVnMK3w/videos
> 
> This 2nd video below is just one of SIX that Kevin Kuschel (@zedmaster) did in his 'Let's Orchestrate' series, in agreement with Phillip, as I understand it. Check this out, and the others - the combination of Orchestral Recipes and Kevin's YouTube and/or his discord channel (https://discord.com/channels/953889446267322378/953935191607504906) is such great combination.
> 
> If you're on the fence about Vol 3, check out the 3rd video below by Kevin - don't hesitate, this is the best one in my opinion. Hope these help.



Thank you so much for this answer


----------



## ChristianM

Impossible to make the purchase because now Paypal requires the opening of an account with them…
Before, you could choose to pay by credit card directly without having to open an account. There, impossible, the choice is not proposed in the popup….
Philipp, do you have a RIB for a transfer?


----------



## PhilipJohnston

Hi Christian

PayPal really, really wants you to sign up...but you actually don't have to, and can just use them as a glorified credit card processor. See the screenshot below:






PayPal makes the Log In button impossible to miss, because they want you to join their church. But sneakily, underneath that, is the button you want: "Pay with a Card".

Click that, and PayPal will shrug, give up trying to recruit you, and let you pay by credit card, with no PayPal account needed. 

PM me if you run into any problems, or you can always shoot me a message through orchestrationrecipes.com.


----------



## ChristianM

I understood the bug... Paypal has kept my company's email address in the field and you have to delete this email address to have access to payment by card... !!! (it's a for me, not for my company)


----------



## HardyP

PhilipJohnston said:


> And in case you missed Kevin Kuschel's review video & giveaway, there are still a few days left if you're looking to score yourself a free copy of Orchestration Recipes 3.


Thank you so much for pointing that out, and also for providing him a copy for the draft -
because this I've been lucky enough to be the one .

Now I just hope to get some spare time from job&family duties soon in order to not just view the videos, but DO the training...


----------



## Noland

Bought all 3 of these and working my way through them. They’re very well done and full of useful info and examples, can’t recommend them enough. Big thanks to Philip Johnson for making them and looking forward to the next instalment!


----------



## NekujaK

Have just gone through Vol.3, and like Vols.1 & 2, it's simply excellent! Congrats @PhilipJohnston !

Aside from the new format, I think the most significant change in Vol.3 is its compositional approach. The previous two volumes were more focused on how to achieve a particular mood/sound through instrumentation and orchestration, while Vol.3 delves deeper into actual harmonic construction and composing techniques.

This is something a lot of folks have been asking for from the beginning, and goes beyond basic orchestration.

Highly recommended. Can't wait for more!


----------



## mussnig

NekujaK said:


> Aside from the new format, I think the most significant change in Vol.3 is its compositional approach. The previous two volumes were more focused on how to achieve a particular mood/sound through instrumentation and orchestration, while Vol.3 delves deeper into actual harmonic construction and composing techniques.
> 
> This is something a lot of folks have been asking for from the beginning, and goes beyond basic orchestration.


So far I also have the feeling that Vol. 3 is more on composition and not on orchestration. Don't get me wrong: It's great, I am glad it exists and I really like the content and its presentation. And I can't believe I paid so little for it.
But I think the name "Orchestration Recipes" might not be fitting anymore ...


----------



## wahey73

mussnig said:


> But I think the name "Orchestration Recipes" might not be fitting anymore ...


Agree, I have all three and really love them. The first two volumes are great recipes that take you by the hand to get a certain orchestral sound or mood real quick. The third one is a fantastic and detailed narration of compositioning tips and tricks. Still recipes, but less on creating a sound through orchestration but a lot more on creating a mood through harmonic construction. Who knows, I'm quite sure @PhilipJohnston will provide us with more courses in the future and maybe there will be two categories: Orchestration Recipes and Whatevernamewillfithere Recipes


----------



## Markrs

wahey73 said:


> Still recipes, but less on creating a sound through orchestration but a lot more on creating a mood through harmonic construction.


This move to harmonic construction is something I have been looking for. I love orchestration, but you can also do a lot with harmony, but like with orchestration it can be hard to know mix elements to get the right emotion or feel.


----------



## mallux

I'm enjoying the content of vol 3, but I'm slightly struggling to feel like I have _achieved_ anything after each lesson. I recently worked through vol 1, where there's a very specific "do this, this, this and this" for each recipe, and after an hour you have an "original" short piece of music to save in the ideas folder. Times 21. I'm sure you could take each of Philip's examples in vol 3 and write something similar (which I'm doing), but there's a lot more thinking required, and maybe that's missing the point.


----------



## mussnig

mallux said:


> I'm enjoying the content of vol 3, but I'm slightly struggling to feel like I have _achieved_ anything after each lesson. I recently worked through vol 1, where there's a very specific "do this, this, this and this" for each recipe, and after an hour you have an "original" short piece of music to save in the ideas folder. Times 21. I'm sure you could take each of Philip's examples in vol 3 and write something similar (which I'm doing), but there's a lot more thinking required, and maybe that's missing the point.


Well, I looked at Sunken Minors and immediately found a place where I used it. And actually I also used the orchestration of one of the examples (probably even with the same library).


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## NekujaK

mussnig said:


> Well, I looked at Sunken Minors and immediately found a place where I used it. And actually I also used the orchestration of one of the examples (probably even with the same library).


It's definitely helped me quantify certain composition techniques that I occasionally used without really knowing what I was doing. Examining some of my older compositions, the ones that have always sounded the best to me are in fact the ones where I accidentally used some of the techniques Philip describes.

Now that they've been formalized for us, I can be more intentional in applying them, and hopefully get more consistent results from my compositions.

Philip's methodology for dissecting and identifying composition/orchestration techniques, and then presenting them in such a clear way, is invaluable and can instantly elevate anyone's music.


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## Jotto

I really like these lessons. But i would have prefered if things where explained a bit more trad. E.g sunken minors? What is that.. Its a bunch of major #5 chords.


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## clintowenellis

Jotto said:


> I really like these lessons. But i would have prefered if things where explained a bit more trad. E.g sunken minors? What is that.. Its a bunch of major #5 chords.


Yeah I thought that too. But for some reason sunken minors seemed immediately useful to me. 

When I see major #5 it just doesn’t seem as useful or something I’d use. Sounds a bit too fancy for me where sunken minors has an immediate descriptive element to it. 

For example, on the current project I’m working on the director asked for a cue to switch from fairly upbeat to a sinister sound. I slapped in some sunken minors and it worked great. When hearing sinister I don’t think my brain would ever think major #5. 

I do know what you mean though. When I’m communicating with musicians and I mention sunken minors, that might raise some eyebrows. But at the end of the day it’s allowing me to stretch my harmony skills so I really like it.


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## eakwarren

clintowenellis said:


> Yeah I thought that too. But for some reason sunken minors seemed immediately useful to me.
> 
> When I see major #5 it just doesn’t seem as useful or something I’d use. Sounds a bit too fancy for me where sunken minors has an immediate descriptive element to it.


Exactly this ^^. 

Language itself is arbitrary. Shakespeare said it well, “What’s in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet.” However, language — chosen carefully — can powerfully change perception.


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## NekujaK

So for Orchestration Recipes 3, I noticed on the main lessons page, it says "Spices: Volume 1"






Did I miss something? Is there a volume 2 that's supposed to be part of Orch Recipes 3?


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## Gingerbread

NekujaK said:


> So for Orchestration Recipes 3, I noticed on the main lessons page, it says "Spices: Volume 1"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did I miss something? Is there a volume 2 that's supposed to be part of Orch Recipes 3?


No. It just means that he intends to make more volumes in the future, which will eventually be available for purchase.


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## NekujaK

Gingerbread said:


> No. It just means that he intends to make more volumes in the future, which will eventually be available for purchase.


Okay thanks. It's a little confusing, since we're already on the third volume of Orchestration Recipes, and the previous two entries didn't include such"volume" designations. Also, OR1 & 2 contained 21 recipes each, while OR3 contains just 8, so it's not a stretch to think there's more content to be included.

Anyway, I realize the format changed for OR3, but the "volume" nomenclature is something new and not explained anywhere 🤷‍♂️


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## icecoolpool

Is there a list of libraries used in OR3? The solo violin and classical guitar in Bisected Tenths sounded yummy.


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## PhilipJohnston

Icecoolpool, I've just realised that the libraries-used disclosure list isn't up at OR3 yet, will add that, as I have for the first two volumes. In the meantime:

Solo violin in the Bisected 10ths video was was Joshua Bell from Embertone. Still haven't found a solo violin to equal the sound, or playability—it is a miracle of a sample library. I visit the Embertone website every day in the hope that they'll announce a similarly sampled and programmed library with Yo-Yo Ma, or Steven Isserlis. 

The only downside is that the living sound it produces is so organic and subtly evolving that it's actually slightly different every time you hit play. So normally I'll bounce a track half a dozen times, and then choose between them, as if I were choosing between takes from an acoustic session.

(For those curious to hear what I'm talking about, look for the first "Bisected 10ths" free preview at the Orchestration Recipes website, then compare with the 2nd "Harmonic Splats" preview - they're both Joshua Bell)

Another solo violin I often go to - but harder to control - is Virharmonic's Bohemian, video posted below.



Guitar - believe it or not - was Omnisphere. It's an add-on called Nylon Sky, I've had people telling me they didn't realise I played guitar...I don't...but my kids would think I was way cooler if I did.

As to recent comments about the numbering of the OR Volumes being confusing - it really is :( Will sort it before OR4 hits later this year.


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## esimone00

PhilipJohnston said:


> *Launch sale: 40% off*
> Get your recipes at *orchestrationrecipes.com*
> 
> *2 hours of fully narrated videos*
> Walkthroughs, illustrations and loads of fresh musical examples to explore, in a new, brisk, fully narrated format.
> 
> *Packed with orchestrated examples & ideas to try*
> Start with the videos. Practice building versions of your own, until you don’t _need_ the videos. Then the sound is yours, to summon, whenever you need it.
> 
> *Your sample libraries are fine*
> VSL, Spitfire, EastWest, OrchestralTools, Cinesamples, Samplemodelling, Cinematic Studio Series...it doesn't matter. The whole point of recipes is that they work with whatever you've got.
> 
> *Questions?*
> Email Philip Johnston



Just purchased 2 and 3 but when I dragged the MIDI files into Cubase, nothing happens except it creates a Halion Sonic track. What am I doing wrong?


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## YaniDee

esimone00 said:


> Just purchased 2 and 3 but when I dragged the MIDI files into Cubase, nothing happens except it creates a Halion Sonic track. What am I doing wrong?


You can set how Cubase imports midi files in Preferences - Midi File. You should check the box "Auto Dissolve Format 0", which separates the tracks, and then there's a drop down menu with options. If you want un-assigned midi tracks choose "Midi Tracks". Choosing "Halion multi-timbral" will assign each track to a channel in Halion SE.


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## Un01m

This sounds very interesting, have to try it!


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## Awoo Composer

Found out about this recently and bought the first two volumes. Love how they are presented.


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## esimone00

YaniDee said:


> You can set how Cubase imports midi files in Preferences - Midi File. You should check the box "Auto Dissolve Format 0", which separates the tracks, and then there's a drop down menu with options. If you want un-assigned midi tracks choose "Midi Tracks". Choosing "Halion multi-timbral" will assign each track to a channel in Halion SE.


That worked, thank you so much!


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## Markrs

Volume 4 Preview


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## madfloyd

Looking forward to this as always but I have to say I'm not a fan of the video...


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## DCPImages

I gotta say, I really like the orchestration recipes approach. Really well done. Very clear & accessible. Can’t wait for more


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## Spid

I just discovered this thread now, so I’m sorry in advance because I didn’t read the 33 pages of comments. I just saw the video in the initial post and I would love to know if someone knows where I could find this Logic track icons to make my template a little bit more clear and readable?

Thanks in advance


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## Spid

Here are the icons:






PS: I know I could open Photoshop and make them by myself, but if I can save some time by getting them already made, that would make my day


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## PhilipJohnston

Spid said:


> Here are the icons:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS: I know I could open Photoshop and make them by myself, but if I can save some time by getting them already made, that would make my day


Spid, your timing is uncanny...

I've had lots of people ask about the icon set above—it was developed specifically for the OR videos—but it's actually a tiny fraction of the set that's coming later this year to OR. Articulations, libraries, extended instruments sets, divisi, star/favorite ratings...it's all there, across 15 different colours, so your inner UI designer can go to town setting up the perfectly labelled template. 

There are over 130,000 icons(!) to choose from, all searchable—if you want a red Oboe icon for your Nucleus library, you can search for "Red Oboe Nucleus" and the icon appears. Go add it to your template. Obviously you can only have 500 in Logic, but the point is, they'll be _your_ 500, curated specifically for the way you work, the libraries you have, and how you like to organise your tracks.

Easier to explain with a show-and-tell video, it's on the way, stay tuned...


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## PeterN

@Alchemedia 
augmented


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## Spid

PhilipJohnston said:


> Spid, your timing is uncanny...
> 
> I've had lots of people ask about the icon set above—it was developed specifically for the OR videos—but it's actually a tiny fraction of the set that's coming later this year to OR. Articulations, libraries, extended instruments sets, divisi, star/favorite ratings...it's all there, across 15 different colours, so your inner UI designer can go to town setting up the perfectly labelled template.
> 
> There are over 130,000 icons(!) to choose from, all searchable—if you want a red Oboe icon for your Nucleus library, you can search for "Red Oboe Nucleus" and the icon appears. Go add it to your template. Obviously you can only have 500 in Logic, but the point is, they'll be _your_ 500, curated specifically for the way you work, the libraries you have, and how you like to organise your tracks.
> 
> Easier to explain with a show-and-tell video, it's on the way, stay tuned...


Ahhh awesome, I was wondering if we could just get the original photoshop file and then color the way we prefer (for instance, I have my Strings Solo in one color, my Strings Ensemble to another color, etc…). But if you plan to make them all already and then make them easily to search and import, yeah, that will be definitely something I would love to.

I’m currently building a lot of Logic key maps for all articulations for all libraries, etc… so when I saw your video I thought “hmm… that would be a great additional stuff to have good icons too”. I have no urgency because I’m building my first big template here and I have no project, so I’m pretty sure I will still be tweaking here and there by the time you release your files.

Please, let us know so we won’t miss it when it’s available. If you need early tester, wink wink 🤣


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## nmuzekari

PhilipJohnston said:


> *Launch sale: 40% off*
> Get your recipes at *orchestrationrecipes.com*
> 
> *2 hours of fully narrated videos*
> Walkthroughs, illustrations and loads of fresh musical examples to explore, in a new, brisk, fully narrated format.
> 
> *Packed with orchestrated examples & ideas to try*
> Start with the videos. Practice building versions of your own, until you don’t _need_ the videos. Then the sound is yours, to summon, whenever you need it.
> 
> *Your sample libraries are fine*
> VSL, Spitfire, EastWest, OrchestralTools, Cinesamples, Samplemodelling, Cinematic Studio Series...it doesn't matter. The whole point of recipes is that they work with whatever you've got.
> 
> *Questions?*
> Email Philip Johnston



Man, I can't say enough good things about Orchestration Recipes. I purchased all three volumes and have to say as a beginner these products are, imo, the BEST music education resource to help folks learn how to compose within their DAW. It is overall thematically pleasing, very well structured, easy to follow, and contains an interesting and varied array of well thought out 'recipes' to learn from. 

The best part about it is how step by step it is and how each 'recipe' can be used to create your own unique sketches over and over again.

This is a must buy for all of those who benefit from compositional learning resources. My favorite and best purchase to date.

Volume 4 is coming soon, and I can't wait to see how Philip continues to develop the program!


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## glyster

My first orchestration recipe: 
1-1 HEROIC choral bisque with infused pianoforte​Sample libraries:
- Olympus Choir
- Synchron Brass
- Synchron Strings Pro
- Pianoteq Steinway D

As a beginner, I learned a great deal just going through this single project. Still have a lot to improve.


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## NumericNoise

I came across OR by chance and I wish I would have known it when I started my first big project two years ago. Looking forward to go through all recipes and take notes for future projects and the ones I am currently working on. I am also looking forward to OR Vol.4.

If you want to have a look at my first big project, go here:


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