# Sitting On A Yoga Ball ?



## Peaky Blinder (Nov 18, 2019)

Anyone using one or tried one while composing ?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 18, 2019)

I haven't, but there are some chair threads with posts from people who have. Search for "Aeron" and I'm sure you'll find one.

My objections are that they're too small and that they're not Aerons.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 18, 2019)

And they don't have armrests, which are important for my psychological and physical well-being.


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## chillbot (Nov 18, 2019)

Also search for "swopper". And if you need arm rests like Nick search for "ergorests".

Ultimately sitting on a ball or swopper is good for you and will strengthen your core and back. But you can't do it for too long and could damage your back if you try to do too much too quickly. Start with maybe 20 min on, 1 hour off, work up to 1 hour on, 2 hours off, etc.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 20, 2019)

I have an Aeron and a Swopper, and my wife and daughter (who's flown the coop) both have Swoppers.

They both like the Swopper. My only problem with it is that its cushion isn't plush enough - it hurts my rear end after half an hour, so I use the Aeron. The lack of armrests isn't a problem if I put my forearms on my desk, i.e. I can make it work, but I do use the armrests on the Aeron.

Are there yoga balls that are high/big enough? For comparison, my chair is roughly 21" above the floor (1/2" lower if the carpet weren't cut out where it is). That's compressed.


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## Peaky Blinder (Nov 21, 2019)

I'm going to try a Wobble stool.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 21, 2019)

That looks like a rich man's Swopper - rich because you still have your fortune after buying it.


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## SergeD (Nov 21, 2019)

Don't torture your back, get something like that :




__





All Products


Find all products by department: Bathroom, bedroom, kitchen and appliances, children's furniture, textiles, lighting and more.




www.ikea.com





No bells and whistles and very comfortable all day long


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## dzilizzi (Nov 21, 2019)

I've tried it before, but it is hard finding one that is tall enough without feeling like I'm sitting on the floor. Long legs and bad knees are not a good combination. I do use a balance board at my standing desk at times.


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## Ronny D. Ana (Nov 22, 2019)

No, i have not. So if this is really the question, do not read on,
but ...
You should change your position while sitting very frequently, your are a human being - definitely not designed to sit - so accept that. Sitting on a yoga ball should be fine for 30 minutes or so than you have to change position. Sitting on a high sophisticated expensive chair is fine for 30 minutes or so than you have to change position. Some chairs let you change position in a way that you can stay for 60 or even 90 minutes but the reality is, as I said, you should change your position while sitting very frequently.
I do not think there is much more to say, the conclusion is that we have a bad situation regarding our jobs and the only thing we can do against it is: keep moving
I have a table adjustable for height and a chair adjustable for height and a yoga ball (called Pezi Ball here) and, most important, the advice from many (independent!) physiotherapists: keep moving, do not invest money in expensive chairs.


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## Ryan Fultz (Nov 22, 2019)

I will forever insist that this endless search for ways to fix our issues of sitting for long periods of time will be solved for every healthy bodied individual by starting resistance training of some kind.

"Magically" when my squat got over 315lbs and my deadlift over 405lbs all my wrist pain, my back pain, my anything pain, went away. The most current research on pain and how to treat it is all saying in most cases... get stronger.

Assuming you don't have a physical reason why this is not possible, start working out with some sort of resistance training today, I can't properly express how transformative it has been.

I'm stronger, healthier, live pain free from issues that plagued me for years, and am able to write more frequently and more focused by having something away from music that recharges me and makes my physical and mental endurance stronger for the writing process.

But all that said, I spent $200 on a $400 chair on a black friday and it was one of the best investments I made, be comfy while you work.


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## MartinH. (Nov 22, 2019)

I have reached the conclusion that there are no really good off the shelf solutions for me and I just have to experiment and possibly custom built something that fits my needs. E.g. I have a ~500,- Euro chair and it felt fine in the store but longterm use exposed it as being worse than possibly every other chair I ever owned. It's just not finely adjustable enough. Right now I'm sitting on an Ikea Karljan chair that I have propped up with after-market furniture-legs to make it high enough for my table:








KARLJAN Chair, dark gray/Kabusa dark gray - IKEA CA


KARLJAN Chair, dark gray/Kabusa dark gray KARLJAN chair has a fresh, modern expression and gives great comfort thanks to the upholstered seat and back. The chair can be assembled in no time - but the strong construction will last. Upholstered backrest provides good support for your back.




www.ikea.com






I'm interested in resources (both knowledge and things) for generic "furniture hacks", preferably ikea-related. I have a Poäng armchair that absolutely is killing my neck and I'm thinking there has to be some way to customize it to make it work for me.


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## Ronny D. Ana (Nov 22, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> I'm interested in resources (both knowledge and things) for generic "furniture hacks"


I guess what I am saying is controversial but: keep moving!!!keep moving!!!keep moving!!!
Talk with your or with any physiotherapist which is not bound to any company, that's important cause "company dictates" as we all know.
And should you have a 900 bugs chair and and are satisfied with it:
Either you are individual lucky or you are like most of us: too proud to declare an expensive purchasing a wrong decision.


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## MartinH. (Nov 22, 2019)

Ronny D. Ana said:


> I guess what I am saying is controversial but: keep moving!!!keep moving!!!keep moving!!!
> Talk with your or with any physiotherapist which is not bound to any company, that's important cause "company dictates" as we all know.


I don't think that's very controversial at all. Controversial is the theory that strength training excercises for your back make the root-cause of back-pain worse.

I've somewhat given up on medical professionals being able to help me, because I've worked with them for years. They simply lack the tools to gain deep enough insight into your life to recommend the exact changes needed to improve your symptoms. You have to learn about anatomy, pay attention to what you do and figure out the bad patterns yourself, then correct if possible. Some of the stuff that I found out is bad for me was approved as "should be fine" by them and something that one doc recommended as "fix" was questioned as "damaging" by others and myself. Something that was "only fixable with rest" according to one doc turned out (in my case at least) to be "only fixable with highly specific and painful stretching" by someone else. There simply is no real consensus in the field. On the bottom line "keep moving" being a net benefit for most is the one thing I can think of that there seems to be an agreement on among doctors and therapists.




Ronny D. Ana said:


> And should you have a 900 bugs chair and and are satisfied with it:
> Either you are individual lucky or you are like most of us: too proud to declare an expensive purchasing a wrong decision.



Like I said, I'm unhappy with my ~500,- Euro chair and don't think I could solve this problem with just throwing more money at it, or else I would. I'd almost argue you get more valuable knowledge from buying half a dozen cheap but wildly different chairs than buying one fancy one and hoping for the best. 

One of the better ones I had was "kneeling chair", similar to this: 







I have bad knees though and it wasn't really ideal in the end. If I had the space I might switch between more different chairs, but my room is too small to have a huge variety here and also I haven't found a good way yet to remind myself of such things without breaking flow when I'm working on something. 


By the way, armrests were bad for me. The ones on my expensive chair gave me neural pain issues from pressing on nerves near the elbow and I had to remove them. Never looked back.


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## dzilizzi (Nov 22, 2019)

+1 on the get rid of the arms. After a few injuries, half of my hands go numb when I lean on my elbows. 

I'm currently getting by with a shop chair that I got from Costco. It sits higher than my normal chair but not as high as the barstool I was using. This way I have a standing height desk but can sit when I need to. I mostly work from home. When I travel for work, I find I really miss the ability to stand while working. I tend to move more when standing, which is also good.

There are times when I really miss my old retail job. I was always moving and it could be very physical. I don't miss the pay though.


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## chimuelo (Nov 22, 2019)

I stand when I perform, always sitting is just not in the mix.
I trained Martual Arts as a kid, stretched while watching movies, it became a way of life.
Now I do dumbbells while transferring 60GB Files or watching upgrades.
Jeez, when I’m early for rehearsals I break out the window cleaners and apholstry kit.
There’s just no future in sitting for me.

When I sit I either eat, shit or drive.
That’s it.


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## chimuelo (Nov 22, 2019)

I did use one for a while and grew weary.


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## paularthur (Nov 22, 2019)

Tried it but I've been thinking about a standing desk now.


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## kgdrum (Nov 22, 2019)

dzilizzi said:


> +1 on the get rid of the arms. After a few injuries, half of my hands go numb when I lean on my elbows.
> 
> I'm currently getting by with a shop chair that I got from Costco. It sits higher than my normal chair but not as high as the barstool I was using. This way I have a standing height desk but can sit when I need to. I mostly work from home. When I travel for work, I find I really miss the ability to stand while working. I tend to move more when standing, which is also good.
> 
> There are times when I really miss my old retail job. I was always moving and it could be very physical. I don't miss the pay though.



@dzlizzi
I’ve been dealing with numbness in the left side of my left hand(pinky and 4th finger)
I have a question for you: how did you get it to go away???? and how long did it take to go away?
I’ve had this for almost 4 months.I went to a neurologist 4 or 5 weeks ago and she suggested the same(don’t lean on the elbow) & also recommended not to go w/a surgical approach (ulnar nerve is too tricky).
I’ve been diligent about not leaning on the elbow but it’s still there and so damn annoying! Is that all you had to do?

Thanks


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## dzilizzi (Nov 22, 2019)

kgdrum said:


> @dzlizzi
> I’ve been dealing with numbness in the left side of my left hand(pinky and 4th finger)
> I have a question for you: how did you get it to go away???? and how long did it take to go away?
> I’ve had this for almost 4 months.I went to a neurologist 4 or 5 weeks ago and she suggested the same(don’t lean on the elbow) & also recommended not to go w/a surgical approach (ulnar nerve is too tricky).
> ...


That is about all you can do. Once the Ulnar nerve has been injured it tends to get irritated very quickly. I was thinking about getting a brace, but I can't find one that doesn't look like it will bother me more than it helps. It is worse when I sleep because I can't really control my position. Otherwise, I just try not to put any pressure on it.


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## kgdrum (Nov 22, 2019)

dzilizzi said:


> That is about all you can do. Once the Ulnar nerve has been injured it tends to get irritated very quickly. I was thinking about getting a brace, but I can't find one that doesn't look like it will bother me more than it helps. It is worse when I sleep because I can't really control my position. Otherwise, I just try not to put any pressure on it.




So has it is ever gone away for you and if so how long did it take and how long did the disappearance last? It reoccurs whenever you inadvertently lean on you elbow?
It’s so damn annoying!


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## MartinH. (Nov 22, 2019)

kgdrum said:


> @dzlizzi
> I’ve been dealing with numbness in the left side of my left hand(pinky and 4th finger)
> I have a question for you: how did you get it to go away???? and how long did it take to go away?
> I’ve had this for almost 4 months.I went to a neurologist 4 or 5 weeks ago and she suggested the same(don’t lean on the elbow) & also recommended not to go w/a surgical approach (ulnar nerve is too tricky).
> ...




I'm not a doctor, this is not medical advice... but... I recommend taking a vitamin D supplement (get your levels checked before and after if it makes you feel better, but almost everyone with a "modern lifestyle" is defficiant in vitamin D). Iirc it has some proven benefits for improving symptoms such as yours. I could swear I have less arm/hand pain since I'm taking it (been taking it for years, 2000 units daily at the moment).
Try stretching the muscles and fascia tissue that is close to that nerve, the goal is to make the surrounding tissue put less pressure on the nerve if at all possible. Stretch till you feel a slight pain (if you can't smile anymore while doing it, it's too much), hold for two to three minutes in that position, then _very _slowly release the tension. I've heard a story of a painter that had to stop painting because holding his arm up pinched that nerve from the muscle tensions. That story is what put me on the right track fixing my own armrest issue when I had it.
Have you ruled out the cause being anything with your spine? I have spinal disc protrusions that cause pain in my fingers when I sit or lie with the neck tilted down too much. Can be anything from a mild burn to a sudden feeling of getting a needle jabbed into the finger.




kgdrum said:


> So has it is ever gone away for you and if so how long did it take and how long did the disappearance last? It reoccurs whenever you inadvertently lean on you elbow?
> It’s so damn annoying!



I really don't want to prime you for a nocebo effect ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo ) but nerve injuries don't always heal back fully. I once sat with crossed legs too long and ignored that my leg fell asleep. The next day I couldn't pull my foot upwards fully anymore. It felt numb and was trembling. I went to the doctor immediately and he said it's a pressure injury to the peroneal nerve ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peroneal_nerve_paralysis ) and if I'm lucky it goes away fully. And I'd say it went away to about 98%, but lifting that foot still feels slightly different than on the other leg and I could swear I'm tripping over things slightly more often.
A neurologist told me it's quite typical for people to get nerve damage from falling asleep drunk on park benches, sitting with one arm hanging over the back rest. I find it super scary that a couple hours of mild pressure can already cause permanent nerve damage. I don't think we're nearly enough educated on stuff like that since much of permanent damage can be prevented with seeking out treatment immediately or avoiding the injury in the first place with a little foresight, like I could easily have by sitting differently.

I really hope you still can get this fixed. Don't give up hope and keep trying things!
My physiotherapist recommended one thing to me that would be worth trying: stand in a T-pose, arms stretched out, palms pointing up, keep elbows fixed in that position, tilt head right, raise left hand till it points to your head, then flip everything over to the other side and repeat a couple of times as if you're slowly waving. The idea is that nerve tissue isn't fully "fixed" in the nerve canals and that kind of motion pattern might be able to do you some good. Your mileage may vary, wouldn't be surprised if it gets worse either, but since it's a very mild movement similar to just stretching, it's likely fine for you too. I didn't notice any benefit from it, but I don't have issues with that nerve at the moment either.

Good luck!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 22, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> One of the better ones I had was "kneeling chair",



I once worked on one of those, and it was comfortable... except at the end of that day I felt like I'd been kneeling for eight hours. My knees hurt - and that was in the '80s before I injured one of them playing tennis.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 22, 2019)

dzilizzi said:


> +1 on the get rid of the arms. After a few injuries, half of my hands go numb when I lean on my elbows.



1x10^-63

The idea isn't to lean on your elbows and give yourself nerve injuries, it's to put your forearms on them for support while you're typing/mousing! Otherwise you get problems from holding up your arms.

As I said, an alternative is pushing the keyboard forward on your desktop and resting your forearms on it.

But holding up your arms creates tension in your neck, shoulders, arms, and wrists. We're not all the same person, but I believe that's the cause of lots of repetitive stress injuries people complain about with mouses and so on. To me it only makes sense to have the whole chain relaxed.


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## MartinH. (Nov 22, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> except at the end of that day I felt like I'd been kneeling for eight hours. My knees hurt - and that was in the '80s before I injured one of them playing tennis.



Well... you were kind of kneeling the whole day. I had put extra cushioning on the knee area and I always had a tendency to kneel even on normal chairs, so it didn't feel like a _huge _additional strain, but I definitely felt it too. Not quite sure whether that or the total lack of back support bothered me more in the end. Hm... 

I always wanted to try one of these: 







I think "Dauphin Tec Profile" is its name. I briefly sat on one in a dental lab, really liked the shoulder freedom. I like that about my current one as well, the backrest is lower than my shoulder blades.


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## MartinH. (Nov 22, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The idea isn't to lean on your elbows and give yourself nerve injuries, it's to put your forearms on them for support while you're typing/mousing! Otherwise you get problems from holding up your arms.



That gentle resting of the forearms on the somewhat soft armrests is exactly what caused the nerve pain for me. The angle just wasn't right. Likely could have been mitigated with different rests, but I was too scared to try again and didn't feel a need to because:



Nick Batzdorf said:


> As I said, an alternative is pushing the keyboard forward on your desktop and resting your wrists on the it.



I think that's the much better alternative. 




Nick Batzdorf said:


> But holding up your arms creates tension in your neck, shoulders, arms, and wrists. We're not all the same person, but to me that's the cause of lots of repetitive stress injuries people complain about with mouses and so on. To me it only makes sense to have the whole chain relaxed.



Personal needs and preferences are huge for this kind of stuff! For me it was a big deal to have the table even a couple centimeter too high. If everything is set up well, my arms hang pretty relaxed while typing. 

I think what typical composers need - frequent access to both keyboard and midi keyboard - is basically impossible to get right anatomically. Not the least of which because those damn midi keyboards are too thick to get all the heights and leg position right. I feel like even a thick tabletop is getting in the way for me already. I opted to not have a proper midi keyboard. I have a keystation mini 32 and mostly enter notes with mouse and/or wacom tablet. But I'm just doing it as a hobby, so I don't have the same needs as most here. And midi editing by mouse also feels _very _unhealthy to me.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 22, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> I think what typical composers need - frequent access to both keyboard and midi keyboard - is basically impossible to get right anatomically



Actually I have a different perspective. 

These are the desks I make, a variation of the one someone else made that I've been working at all day long for a good 20 years:



https://vi-control.net/community/threads/custom-composers-desk-anyone-in-the-mood-for-one.86483/


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## MartinH. (Nov 22, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Actually I have a different perspective.
> 
> These are the desks I make, a variation of the one someone else made that I've been working at all day long for a good 20 years:
> 
> ...




Ah, I remember seeing that thread. Very nice work on your desks! I think that design makes a lot of sense if you need to have that full sized midi keyboard. But I think it still wouldn't work well for me. It's possible that you feel the need for armrests because the keyboard and mouse are a little higher on your desk and the rests alleviate the strain that otherwise would create for your shoulders and neck. I would also suspect that these desks work better if you're a bit taller than me (I'm about 175 cm).

I like to move my legs around under the table and still frequently sit with crossed legs, and I always feel like my table gets in the way and the area between the underside of my table and the wacom tablet that my keyboard sits on most of the time, is probably about half as thick as the corresponding area on your design. That would be a dealbreaker for me because if my table was lower I couldn't move the legs like I want anymore and if the keyboard was positioned higher I would get shoulder issues like I got when I sat on a too low chair recently. 

I wonder... has anyone in this industry ever experimented with mounting a midi keyboard on a pair (left and right side) of Ergotron monitor arms? That would give you a bigger range of motion for moving it a round, at least in theory. Not sure though if that is at all helpful... I don't play that instrument so I wouldn't know.


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## dzilizzi (Nov 22, 2019)

kgdrum said:


> So has it is ever gone away for you and if so how long did it take and how long did the disappearance last? It reoccurs whenever you inadvertently lean on you elbow?
> It’s so damn annoying!


As long as I don't do anything to irritate it, it usually won't bother you. But I've had it for 20+ years and it just seems to get worse as I get older. I don't know if it will help you, but if I remember to take a B supplement with a lot of vitamin B-12, it helps a bit. More for my neck than my hand. Otherwise, I haven't found anything to help.


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## kgdrum (Nov 22, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> I'm not a doctor, this is not medical advice... but... I recommend taking a vitamin D supplement (get your levels checked before and after if it makes you feel better, but almost everyone with a "modern lifestyle" is defficiant in vitamin D).
> 
> Good luck!




Thanks I’ll look into it but I already know the cause of this in my case.
The proper solution is what I’m hoping for 
Again Thanks


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## kgdrum (Nov 22, 2019)

dzilizzi said:


> As long as I don't do anything to irritate it, it usually won't bother you. But I've had it for 20+ years and it just seems to get worse as I get older. I don't know if it will help you, but if I remember to take a B supplement with a lot of vitamin B-12, it helps a bit. More for my neck than my hand. Otherwise, I haven't found anything to help.



Thanks for the info


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 22, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> Ah, I remember seeing that thread. Very nice work on your desks! I think that design makes a lot of sense if you need to have that full sized midi keyboard.



Thanks, but the number of octaves in your controller makes no difference to the concept. I've shipped three to composers who use 61-key keyboards that I can think of, possibly more.

You're still going between using a full desktop and playing on your keyboard all the time, and you want to stay the right distance from your monitor and speakers.



> But I think it still wouldn't work well for me.



Could be, but there are now about 25 of them being used by composers every day, so it's not like an experiment. 



> It's possible that you feel the need for armrests because the keyboard and mouse are a little higher on your desk and the rests alleviate the strain that otherwise would create for your shoulders and neck. I would also suspect that these desks work better if you're a bit taller than me (I'm about 175 cm).



Not really! The point to the armrests - or to resting your forearms on the desktop - is what I wrote above: making it so you're not creating the leverage to type and mouse with your muscles, you're resting your arms. That's true of people with a computer on a desk too, not just musicians.

If anything, armrests are far *more* important if you have a keyboard tray under your desk than with this setup.

And the design has been proven to work for shorter people too - including a couple of women.




> I like to move my legs around under the table and still frequently sit with crossed legs



Ah, then this is what you need.


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## Ronny D. Ana (Nov 23, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> I'd almost argue you get more valuable knowledge from buying half a dozen cheap but wildly different chairs than buying one fancy one and hoping for the best.


I think this is very much true for two reasons. The first one you told yourself: getting more knowledge what is good for you. The second reason is that having six chairs makes you able to change your sitting position every 30 or sixty minutes or so by changing chair which is a very good idea. But of course this is a little impractical 😆


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 23, 2019)

I sat in the Aeron in a store before buying it.

That seems easier than buying six chairs!


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## MartinH. (Nov 23, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I sat in the Aeron in a store before buying it.
> 
> That seems easier than buying six chairs!



I sat on my chair in the store too (at least 15+ minutes and trying out the various possible adjustments). I sat on at least a dozen different chairs in different stores that day, bought the one that I liked best, but after it was delivered and I sat and worked on it under the exact circumstances that I typically do (which is just different from testing a chair in a store) for a couple of weeks, I had to admit that my old much less advanced Ikea office chair seemed to work better for me in some ways. I learned from it not to buy a chair again with "adjustment options that aren't seamless and only lock into a limited set of preset positions". And also not one with a back rest that pushes too much against the shoulders. I just whish I had learned those lessons on a 100 Euro chair instead of a ~500 Euro one. 
If there was a cost-efficient way to do it, I'd consider renting a number of chairs, for 1 month each and just properly try out the ones that I think might work. 

There's one I'm still thinking about called "Hag Capisco" that has a very unusual shape, but it's 1000+ bucks for the model with the proper seat cushion and still ~400 ish for the mostly hard plastic one.





Nick Batzdorf said:


> Thanks, but the number of octaves in your controller makes no difference to the concept. I've shipped three to composers who use 61-key keyboards that I can think of, possibly more.



That was a misunderstanding, with "full size" I mean the thickness/height of the keyboard, not how wide it is. I might not be describing things very well due to English not being my native language, sorry about that. 



Nick Batzdorf said:


> And the design has been proven to work for shorter people too - including a couple of women.



I'm glad to hear that! It's quite possible that my specific health conditions just make me sensitive to stuff that doesn't bother any regular user. I didn't want to criticize your desk design, hope that didn't come off the wrong way. I have genuinely not seen a composer desk design yet that I would think makes more sense than yours! I'm just not looking for a composer desk is all.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 23, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> I didn't want to criticize your desk design



I'd have no problem if you did want to, and of course I know you're not looking for a composer desk.



MartinH. said:


> with "full size" I mean the thickness/height of the keyboard



Almost every keyboard controller is under 6" thick (most of them well under that), and it works fine.

For the couple of outliers that are thicker, I'd just make the desktop slope down like a drafting table, and come up with a locking mechanism to stop it from sliding or find the right hardware. (My first thought is a dowel with a spring, but I'd have to think about that if it came up. So far it hasn't.)


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 23, 2019)

Important topic for us actually...

Regarding the yoga ball... or other backless solutions. These should not be considered your full time chair. They can be useful to use for part of the day as way to build up strength in your core, but if you try to use them or any backless chair, what will happen after an hour is you will start slumping more because you're tired of sitting straight up without the support of a back. I've had numerous physical therapists warn me about that. Not a bad idea to use for an hour a day to promote strengthening of posture and muscles...while you are being attentive to your posture. After that, use a chair with back support.

My thoughts. I have had Aerons as well as my current desk chair from Hermann Miller which is older and less technical then the Aeron but I actually find it more comfortable. The Aeron had a way of pressing too hard against my hamstring for some reason and causing sciatic issues. I literally gave my two Aeron chairs away when I moved. My current chair is an older Hermann miller chair called the Ergon that is actually very comfortable, has good lumbar support and much more comfortable cushions then the aeron... for me anyway. https://www.madisonseating.com/ergon-3-chair-by-herman-miller.html

But I know there are newer solutions now. Gamers have a lot to say about this also, there are some gaming chairs I have seen around which would be interesting to try, but its not inexpensive to try solutions.

I also feel its not good to have your chair in one position all the time. switch back and forth between locked upright and rocking back throughout the day. Get up from your chair at least once an hour, if not twice. Even better invest in a motorized desk that goes up and down so you can switch between sitting and standing throughout the day.

The thing is, staying in one position all day is bad. Slumping or slouching is bad. Standing all day is bad. Sitting on a yoga ball all day is bad. Keep it moving, find something comfortable. Promote lumbar support in the chair.


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## Damarus (Nov 23, 2019)

Got my Aeron from here.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 23, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> Aeron had a way of pressing too hard against my hamstring for some reason and causing sciatic issues



Sounds like it was too high and too big a size for you. Mine doesn't really contact my hamstrings.

But you're not the first person with that complaint, including my wife, who didn't like the Aeron at all. I love it.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 23, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> backless solutions. These should not be considered your full time chair. They can be useful to use for part of the day as way to build up strength in your core, but if you try to use them or any backless chair, what will happen after an hour is you will start slumping more because you're tired of sitting straight up without the support of a back



Hm. That makes sense, but I can honestly say that the Swopper doesn't make me tired at all. (It has different issues for me, as I wrote above.)

My hunch is that one of a few tried and true chair models will work for everyone, in spite of the differences in our bodies.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 23, 2019)

Hermann Miller in general is a great office chair company that has been making some of the best products available for a long time. I trust them completely. Not all of their chairs work for everyone, in my experience. But in general they are very high quality chairs with attention too ergonomics. If you can find an actual Hermann-Miller dealer that has a wide selection of their products on a showroom floor, you will probably go home with one of them. IMHO.

I don't know if there is a single works-best-for-everyone chair out there.

Lately I've been seeing ads for gaming chairs and people saying its the most comfortable chair they have ever used. I know I can sit in the car seat of my Audi for literally hours at a time and make long drives for 12 hour shots, etc.. and my back might even feel better at the end then before because of its absolutely perfect ergonomics. My previous Audi was the same way. If I could get my Audi driver seat in a desk chair I probably would call it the final answer. The gaming chairs seem to be more like car seats...hugging the person a bit more, etc. so I don't know, I want to try one of those. But I have never seen them on any showroom floor to try.

My other issue is this, I like arm rests a lot. They positively get in the way when I'm using my guitar. 

I'm setting up a new studio room and I plan to arrange it with a motorized desk that goes up and down and while I will have a primary keyboard in front of the computer that I use a lot, I will also have a set of keyboards to the side that I could play sitting or standing. And just move around more throughout the day. That is what the PT's keep telling me. just move around more and all will be fine. 

In my previous life I was a software dev in silicon valley working seven 15 hour days a week...and suffice it to say, it took a toll on my back and posture. I was not attentive to these things in those years when I was young and full of confidence that I'll be fine. 25 years and two back surgeries later, I wish I had been more attentive to this topic in my 20's and 30's, and 40's. In my 40's I became more attentive and things are better now...but in the end, it comes down to moving around a lot, and not slumping and keeping all the various muscles moving, stretching, mobile...as much as possible. 

Another thing is getting the computer display at exactly the right height. People that have issues in their hands and arms sometimes is because they are straining their neck to look at their display non-ergonomically. Makes a huge difference for me.

I want to hear more about midi keyboard ergonomics, height, etc. where to put the computer keyboard in relation to that, etc, etc, etc. then we add touchpad and CC faders and all that stuff and pretty soon..whew..its hard to find the best chair solution and desk to handle it all.


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## Auddict (Nov 23, 2019)

+1 for sit/stand desks. We built my new studio desk to go up and down, only issue is perfect mixing position is at sitting position.... but for composing or anything else, can easily alternate


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 23, 2019)

I'm trying to arrange my new desk so that the monitors will be on the desk so that they go up and down too. But as I get into wider and wider displays, this may turn out to not be possible in the end. We shall see.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 23, 2019)

Auddict said:


> +1 for sit/stand desks



Another example of how our bodies are all different.

My back hurts when I stand for a long time. I don't have a bad back or anything, it just hurts (and did when I was in my 20s, so it's not an age thing).

Other people swear by them, obviously including Auddict.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 23, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> I'm trying to arrange my new desk so that the monitors will be on the desk so that they go up and down too. But as I get into wider and wider displays, this may turn out to not be possible in the end. We shall see.



Post a scribble of your setup, or send me one in a PM. I can show you one good way to do it.


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## Auddict (Nov 23, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Another example of how our bodies are all different.
> 
> My back hurts when I stand for a long time. I don't have a bad back or anything, it just hurts (and did when I was in my 20s, so it's not an age thing).
> 
> Other people swear by them, obviously including Auddict.


 
No that’s actually a really valid point - I usually don’t stand longer than 20 minutes, otherwise yes I also start to get some kind of cramps/pains. Apparently it’s the constant changing in position which is healthy, whereas sitting for ages and standing for ages are both not ideal. So yeah definitely agree with you on that one


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 23, 2019)

its actually a critical feature that the desk is *motorized* to go up and down, like I said earlier..moving around often is key. You can't always stand, or you get other problems. In fact walking around is better then sitting, but standing is not. Ideally you change it up throughout the day. Stand for a while, walk around the studio more, sit for a while, change the seat settings from straight up to leaning back, and visa versa, etc.. Movement and change is the key.


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## kitekrazy (Nov 23, 2019)

2 Fold Step Stool | At Home


Make storage and organization simple with the 2 Fold Step Stool. To purchase, and find other affordable Stepstools & Ladders, visit your local At Home store.




www.athome.com





I have this on a cheap small computer desk as an impromptu standing desk. I've learned you have to train yourself to standing after spending a lifetime of sitting.


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## Auddict (Nov 24, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> its actually a critical feature that the desk is *motorized* to go up and down, like I said earlier..moving around often is key. You can't always stand, or you get other problems. In fact walking around is better then sitting, but standing is not. Ideally you change it up throughout the day. Stand for a while, walk around the studio more, sit for a while, change the seat settings from straight up to leaning back, and visa versa, etc.. Movement and change is the key.


Spot on


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## chimuelo (Nov 24, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Actually I have a different perspective.
> 
> These are the desks I make, a variation of the one someone else made that I've been working at all day long for a good 20 years:
> 
> ...



I didn’t know this was your work. Always liked these, reminds me of when I did sit and play but because my feet were needed and bass pedals required my legs be together like squeezing the tank of a Motocross bike as I “kicked” bass. 

What a great desk, it’s so Hammond-ish...


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## LamaRose (Nov 24, 2019)

This allows me to sit on my arse all day and exercise at the same time:


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## Tim_Wells (Nov 24, 2019)

Ryan Fultz said:


> I will forever insist that this endless search for ways to fix our issues of sitting for long periods of time will be solved for every healthy bodied individual by starting resistance training of some kind.
> 
> "Magically" when my squat got over 315lbs and my deadlift over 405lbs all my wrist pain, my back pain, my anything pain, went away. The most current research on pain and how to treat it is all saying in most cases... get stronger.
> 
> ...


Our bodies are much stronger than people think. For so many years people were afraid of bending the wrong way, or lifting too much, or sitting in the wrong kind of chair, or not having the keyboard at the right angle, etc., etc. IMO, these kinds of beliefs actually exasperate pain problems. I know. I lived through it myself and had all kinds of chronic pain issues. Not anymore, thanks to a doctor named John Sarno who set me straight.

That said, one of these chairs for building core strength is intriguing.


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## dzilizzi (Nov 24, 2019)

Alexandre said:


> While I have never tried any of these pulsed eloctro magnetic field therapy devices the russians have been using them for years for inflamation and pain management ( among other things) and I've heard good things about them.If you google Pulsed Electromagnetic Field therapy ( PEMF therapy) you should find some info...
> ok back to music!


Like a TENS device? They used that on my neck at the PT place. It felt good, but for my neck, the rack, I mean the stretcher thing worked better. I don't think it helps with nerve issues. They basically told me they could do surgery, but since there was no nerve damage, it was not recommended.


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## MartinH. (Nov 25, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Almost every keyboard controller is under 6" thick (most of them well under that), and it works fine.
> 
> For the couple of outliers that are thicker, I'd just make the desktop slope down like a drafting table, and come up with a locking mechanism to stop it from sliding or find the right hardware. (My first thought is a dowel with a spring, but I'd have to think about that if it came up. So far it hasn't.)



Still not what I meant :D.



Alexandre said:


> While I have never tried any of these pulsed eloctro magnetic field therapy devices the russians have been using them for years for inflamation and pain management ( among other things) and I've heard good things about them.If you google Pulsed Electromagnetic Field therapy ( PEMF therapy) you should find some info...



I just googled that and found a video where a doctor shoved an LED up his nose and talked about "intravenous lasers". Seemed wildly esoteric to me.




dzilizzi said:


> Like a TENS device? They used that on my neck at the PT place. It felt good, but for my neck, the rack, I mean the stretcher thing worked better. I don't think it helps with nerve issues. They basically told me they could do surgery, but since there was no nerve damage, it was not recommended.



I believe TENS can be applied for nerve pain, but not as a fix, only as a way to overload the nerve with signals that block out the pain or something like that. It can help indirectly fix nerve pain issues when a nerve is pinched through a rip joint blockage caused by stiff muscles and you use the TENs device to relax the cause of the blockage so that it can snap back and release the pinched nerve. 

The first TENs device we bought was terrible and we had to return it. Iirc it was too strong at too low of a frequency, and poorly adjustable, making it just painful. Then I bought a different one that had more manual settings for frequency and pulse width, and analog dials for intensity and that was a lot more comfortable. But I think the TENs devices are only good for fairly specific usecases and you should invest in a good handheld massager that you can reach your back and neck with first. Something like this:





It has "infra red LEDs", though I could swear they are for placebo only.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 25, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> Still not what I meant :D.



What I meant is my response to what you meant! The concept really does work, pretty much regardless of your keyboard's footprint in any dimension or how tall you are.

Again, I get that you personally aren't going to be a customer. That puts you in the same category as most people in the world. 

But I'm still going to correct objections you raise when they're not right, because I've experimented a lot and thought through them all over many years.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 25, 2019)

^ That includes many setups that were a total failure, such as a corner desk + wings and a CRT monitor on an arm so it could move from front to side positions.

This is from about 15 years ago, before I had a woodworker build my current desk (the prototype). It was my first sliding desktop setup. The Ultimate Support Thinkertoy hardware was great, but this was still a little rickety compared to a real wooden one.


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## MartinH. (Nov 25, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> What I meant is my response to what you meant! The concept really does work, pretty much regardless of your keyboard's footprint in any dimension or how tall you are.
> 
> Again, I get that you personally aren't going to be a customer. That puts you in the same category as most people in the world.
> 
> But I'm still going to correct objections you raise when they're not right, because I've experimented a lot and thought through them all over many years.



I never had any doubt that the midi Keyboard would fit into the compartment designed to fit a midi Keyboard into . What I meant is that right now I have about 8cm between the upper side of my leg and the surface of my mousepad (which is only 4 mm thick), and it still feels like the mouse rests a little too high for me (about 1cm lower might be ideal) and I _also_ would enjoy having more upwards legroom to sit differently too.
My new chair is raised by 7 cm. Before I did that, I got shoulder pain from the mouse and keyboard being too high. I couldn't lower the table further, so I raised the chair (it's not height adjustable).




Nick Batzdorf said:


> This is from about 15 years ago, before I had a woodworker build my current desk (the prototype). The Ultimate Support Thinkertoy hardware was great, but this was still a little rickety compared to a real wooden one.



Thanks for posting that! I'd be very interested to see pics of a couple more iterations if you have them!

I think that picture possibly explains why you don't have the issue I was worried about with your design: based on the photo I guess you have your legs at an angle (knees pointing below horizon line) that my chair doesn't support as well as yours. The way I sit the knees roughly point towards the horizon. I like chairs that have a slightly tilted back seat, and having the legs up rather high than low. 




Nick Batzdorf said:


> The Ultimate Support Thinkertoy hardware was great, but this was still a little rickety compared to a real wooden one.



Can you recommend any "parts system" that lends itself to prototyping furniture that isn't too expensive? I'd think ideally some clamp system that works with standard aluminum piping that you can cut to the right length yourself if needed?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 25, 2019)

If the space between the underside of your keyboard and your legs is an issue, I'd suggest getting some angle steel supported at the sides. You probably only need to support the back of the keyboard, because its own frame should be enough to hold it up.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 25, 2019)

Angle steel. You could probably use aluminum too if it's thick enough, because the vertical side stiffens the whole thing due to... well, a picture is worth 1000 words.

And if you need support at the front, most keyboards have a couple of inches between their undersides and the bottoms of their white keys, so you could just use another angle steel (or aluminum) bar.






Unfortunately, Ultimate Support doesn't make that stuff anymore. The company that bought them found it too expensive to stock all the miscellaneous parts.

Their A-frame keyboard stands were everywhere in the '80s and early '90s.


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## steveo42 (Nov 25, 2019)

With my luck I'd fall off and break some bone....


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## MartinH. (Dec 3, 2019)

I noticed that while I do get less back pain from the new ikea chair that I bought, I do have more hand pain from neck issues recently. I examined how I sit on that chair and concluded that the lack of back support in the shoulder area that I find subjectively quite comfortable, leads to me having the upper back slightly more reclined and thus the neck is at a more down-looking angle, which triggers my spinal disk issues that I feel in my hands. So I present the hypothesis that while subjectively the ikea chair felt much nicer to sit on, it may be harmful for me neck the way I'm naturally sitting on it. I'll switch back to my old office chair (the more expensive one) to see if the neck gets better. *sigh* 




Nick Batzdorf said:


> Angle steel. You could probably use aluminum too if it's thick enough, because the vertical side stiffens the whole thing due to... well, a picture is worth 1000 words.



Thanks, that's a great idea! And aluminum should be fairly easy to saw/cut too.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 3, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> And aluminum should be fairly easy to saw/cut too



Yes, it's soft - which is why you'd want to use angle aluminum rather than just a bar (which wouldn't work). The vertical side should stop it from bending.

And yes, chairs are tough. I shouldn't have snarked earlier in this thread about sitting in one in the store before buying it, because you're right - like hiking boots, it can take a while before you notice the issues with them.


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