# Thoughts on Deniz Hughes?



## Studio E

She has a facebook presence and website. It sounds like she offers training or mentoring in all aspects for film composers wanting to get to the next level. She offers skype sessions. I'm not overly tempted by any means but definitely curious about any opinions of anyone who has given her money for her expert advice. Can anyone here chime in on this? She also has many many webinars recorded and uploaded to YouTube but to be honest, they are a bit difficult to get into with subpar audio, awkward delays with guests, etc, not to mention they are hours long each. I'm not sure how much of that style of delivery I could take. I'm more interested in anyone who has had virtual one on one time with her. Thanks!


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## Richard Wilkinson

I've never heard of her, so she might well be an incredible composer and/or teacher, but I just checked IMDB and:

Composer (1 credit) 2004 *Tupperware Women--The Short* (Video short)

Plus the website looks like some sort of self-improvement nonsense, so I'd be wary.


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## Killiard

I'm in the Facebook group and find the posts occasionally useful. Usually it's someone just asking a question and everyone chiming in with their answers. 

Some of the YouTube Videos are decent, though the quality isn't great usually due to interviewees having poor internet connections. The last one with Brian Schmidt was quite interesting. 

Can't speak for the one on one time though. I'm pretty sure Deniz had an ad banner on here for a while so it's quite possible that someone on here has given it a go.


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## RiffWraith

wilx said:


> I've never heard of her, so she might well be an incredible composer and/or teacher, but I just checked IMDB and:
> 
> Composer (1 credit) 2004 *Tupperware Women--The Short* (Video short)
> 
> Plus the website looks like some sort of self-improvement nonsense, so I'd be wary.



Completely agree. Then there are a few 'additional orchestrator' credits from '94 -'04. So, how is this person qualified to tell anyone else how to get to the next level? Her "About" page is most unimpressive.

I don't know - she may be a wonderful person, but if I am going to have someone give me the goods on "how to make it" as a film composer, I want to hear it from a film composer.

Cheers.


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## Farkle

I studied with her one-on-one, for 9 months. Then I stopped. If you would like details, please PM me.


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## bryla

The best teacher I've had was from Berklee. She is no where near the most experienced film composer I've had as a teacher, but she was the one, that taught me the most.

That said, it seems like most of Deniz's following comes from the Orchestration Online group, where people don't know that much about scoring as here.


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## Studio E

Thanks guys. Yeah, like I said, I was just curious. Farkle, I'll send you a PM, thank you.


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## Brendon Williams

I've never taken lessons from her, but I am a part of her Facebook group, which has turned out to be a valuable resource due to the great questions she asks the community. There are some very interesting, stimulating conversations as a result. 

That said, she has some very strong opinions about "the way things are," and there have been a number of situations where she has asked people to leave the group (for constantly disagreeing with her) whose opinions and contributions to the group were much more valuable to me than her own, including people such as Richard Kraft, Austin Wintory, and Deane Ogden. It's also not unusual for her to give advice to composers that I disagree with - one example that comes to mind was discouraging an aspiring film composer from studying jazz for his undergrad, due to the "limited range of emotions" in jazz. 

She can also be a bit over politically correct, and quickly takes offense to things that have no negative intentions. One example that comes to mind was a public takedown of Emmett Cooke's website, "Film and Game Composers," for featuring no female writers.


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## madbulk

I think she was an instructor many years ago at an NYU workshop. Marco Beltrami as well. Stop to think of it, I wish I could go back in time. Anyway, assuming that's who we're talking about I can hardly imagine her flying off the handle. Was about as nice a lady as you'd ever want to meet. Smart. Enthusiastic. Helpful. The internet is a weird place to try to know people.


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## Farkle

Deniz was an instructor at NYU. She was teaching composition while I was there, getting my master's in Film Scoring. I did not study with her. But I was there with Austin Wintory, John Boyd, Christy Marshall, and Ronen Landa, and they all studied with her. That's all I know about her from my time at NYU; as I said, I studied with her last year for about 9 months, then stopped. This was about 9 years after I graduated from NYU, and I believe she had stopped teaching there about 6 years ago.

Again, just confirming madbulk's observation; she was on the film scoring faculty at NYU, and taught several composers, who are now in LA, working full time.

Mike


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## musicformedia

[QUOTE="She can also be a bit over politically correct, and quickly takes offense to things that have no negative intentions. One example that comes to mind was a public takedown of Emmett Cooke's website, "Film and Game Composers," for featuring no female writers."[/QUOTE]

Yes that was a rather odd attack on my website to be honest. Here is the thread in question for people to read if they're interested:


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## The Darris

Yeah, that thread was a good time. I think I made my points very clear in that post but back to Deniz's character. She simply has her views and publicly promotes them for discussion with her group. This is the first I've been made aware that she's banned members for simply disagreeing with her, especially Austin Wintory, who is quite successful himself. She makes a living on helping people establish themselves as career composers in the film industry. I'm guessing that if anyone disagrees with her methods and promotes other ways to "skin a cat" she might find that it hurts her business. Her prerogative since it is her group I guess.


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## Jdiggity1

Wow. That thread takes me back.
Seriously? Austin has been banned now? I'll be honest, I've been ignoring posts from that page for a while now (or at least, posts by the admin).

EDIT: So after my own brief research, it seems Austin left of his own accord.
The "Thanks" VS "Thank you" debate was my favourite...


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## Jacob Cadmus

I left that Facebook group after she outed me for making a joke that she blew way out of proportion as a sexist remark. She posted an entire thread about it, even AFTER I apologized.


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## Farkle

I left that group after the Emmett Cooke thread, (and also emailed Emmett personally, expressing my support for him). I found that thread distasteful, unprofessional, and clearly, it spelled out that Deniz has an agenda for that group. She has a right to conform her group in the manner she sees fit, and I have a right to not be a part of that group.


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## Guffy

Farkle said:


> I left that group after the Emmett Cooke thread, (and also emailed Emmett personally, expressing my support for him). I found that thread distasteful, unprofessional, and clearly, it spelled out that Deniz has an agenda for that group. She has a right to conform her group in the manner she sees fit, and I have a right to not be a part of that group.


I think i missed that thread.
What was the deal?


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## Jdiggity1

Fugdup said:


> I think i missed that thread.
> What was the deal?


Refer to post #11 above. It can take you straight to that 'discussion'.


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## Brendon Williams

Jdiggity1 said:


> it seems Austin left of his own accord



Ah yes, you're right. I apologize for spreading misinformation. The others I remember her asking to leave though.


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## chillbot

Jdiggity1 said:


> Refer to post #11 above. It can take you straight to that 'discussion'.



Wow what a fascinating/ridiculous read. I guess per the title of this thread I now have my own "thoughts on Deniz Hughes" but I will keep them to myself.

Fun how many people in that thread are banned.... makes me want to join the group just to get banned too!


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## Jdiggity1

Brendon Williams said:


> Ah yes, you're right. I apologize for spreading misinformation. The others I remember her asking to leave though.



Yes. Reading through one of the aforementioned threads, one will notice a few 'greyed out' members.


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## Guffy

Ah, thank you.
Bizarre thread indeed..


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## bryla

Wow... had to leave the group after reading some of that thread. Sorry you had that happen to you, Emmett!


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## musicformedia

bryla said:


> Wow... had to leave the group after reading some of that thread. Sorry you had that happen to you, Emmett!



Twas a bit odd alright, but to be honest, my blood pressure has dropped to normal levels since being banned from the group so its all good


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## Lawson.

She's quite…interesting. Over-the-top politically correct (she took down a post I made because I said "hi guys" not "hi guys and gals." I mean, really? I call everyone "guys;" be it men or women or dogs or Guinea pigs) and has some very strong opinions that I don't agree with (writing music in a DAW is bad; you can tell what DAW someone used just by listening), but the group she made has lots of cool people in it. I don't really pay attention to her, but there's always fascinating stuff there courtesy of the members.


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## Brendon Williams

Lawson. said:


> She's quite…interesting. Over-the-top politically correct (she took down a post I made because I said "hi guys" not "hi guys and gals." I mean, really? I call everyone "guys;" be it men or women or dogs or Guinea pigs) and has some very strong opinions that I don't agree with (writing music in a DAW is bad; you can tell what DAW someone used just by listening), but the group she made has lots of cool people in it. I don't really pay attention to her, but there's always fascinating stuff there courtesy of the members.




I remember that "guys" incident. Very strange. A lot of my female friends say "guys" to their female friends. I agree though; there are a lot of valuable conversations that go on their regardless of the occasional odd Deniz occurrences.


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## Daryl

One of the big failings of todays society is that useful discussion often can't be had because of the risk of "-ist" accusations. All this does is make people keep their views to themselves, which of course does nothing to change these views, even if they ought to be changed.

D


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## kdm

Well said Daryl, and very true.


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## Ian Dorsch

Daryl said:


> One of the big failings of todays society is that useful discussion often can't be had because of the risk of "-ist" accusations. All this does is make people keep their views to themselves, which of course does nothing to change these views, even if they ought to be changed.



Amen. The rush to scold and shame does nothing but harden attitudes and erode empathy.


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## Kardon

Dean Ogden of ScorecastOnline.com had a run-in with Deniz recently, and spoke about it on the latest ScorecastOnline Podcast (http://www.scorecastonline.com/2015/08/21/scorecast-052-how-far-would-you-go-to-get-a-gig/). It was about the topic of the podcast, and was quite interesting. Now after reading this thread I guess it was not that unusual.


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## Greg

Hahaha that Scorecast chat is amazing. Completely agree.


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## Guffy

Worst thing you could say in that group is "Thanks guys".
Hint: They're both incorrect.


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## jbyrd

I posted a compliment to a few people in one of those threads by saying "Excellent analysis gentlemen." That did not go over well. Honestly, I thought Deniz was a male name.


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## Killiard

I think it's the assumption that everyone's male that bothers her. Which is fair enough really.
Currently Mike Greene at Realitone is getting torn into on the Facebook page regarding his Christmas ad.

Have you seen any of the posts there Mike?


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## jbyrd

Killiard said:


> I think it's the assumption that everyone's male that bothers her.



When I think of professional female composers, I think of Penka Kourneva, who was kind enough to send me her new CD a couple years back. She can do large action-type scores very well, but honestly I really love her small-orchestra romantic compositions. She is a kind person and very easy to talk to. And she is quite busy with many recent professional scoring projects. I personally believe all those factors are related.


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## Jdiggity1

Killiard said:


> Currently Mike Greene at Realitone is getting torn into on the Facebook page regarding his Christmas ad.



I saw that. The response was ridiculous...


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## d.healey

Killiard said:


> I think it's the assumption that everyone's male that bothers her. Which is fair enough really.
> Currently Mike Greene at Realitone is getting torn into on the Facebook page regarding his Christmas ad.
> 
> Have you seen any of the posts there Mike?


Got a link?


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## marclawsonmusic

I just got banned from her Facebook group this week. Someone asserted that Mike Greene's Christmas Realitone ad was 'sexist' and I took issue with that and got kicked out!

Evidently, the whole 'sexism' topic is a sore spot for Ms. Hughes. If you are a male, tread lightly.


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## Mystic

marclawsonmusic said:


> I just got banned from her Facebook group this week. Someone asserted that Mike Greene's Christmas Realitone ad was 'sexist' and I took issue with that and got kicked out!
> 
> Evidently, the whole 'sexism' topic is a sore spot for Ms. Hughes. If you are a male, tread lightly.


I was just reading that. I've always questioned how she was able to make her own page like she did with little to no experience in the field and yet feel like she can throw her name in the title like she's someone of importance. Narcissistic much?

There have been issues in her group before of her banning people who don't agree with her and I find that pathetic. Notice how in this particular topic, the people being rude to you are the same ones who agree with her and yet she says nothing about that.


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## MR F

marclawsonmusic said:


> I just got banned from her Facebook group this week. Someone asserted that Mike Greene's Christmas Realitone ad was 'sexist' and I took issue with that and got kicked out!
> 
> Evidently, the whole 'sexism' topic is a sore spot for Ms. Hughes. If you are a male, tread lightly.


Just read the comments. Some people in there are really intense lol


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## Killiard

d.healey said:


> Got a link?



I'm not sure how to link a specific post on Facebook. The group is called "For Film Composers Only - with Deniz Hughes" and is public.

Jordan


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## sleepy hollow

Killiard said:


> I'm not sure how to link a specific post on Facebook. The group is called "For Film Composers Only - with Deniz Hughes" and is public.


I got this link from the VI chat:


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## Hannes_F

I've split off the sexism discussion to here:
http://vi-control.net/community/threads/sexism-in-the-industry-split-off-thread.50473/


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## Gabriel Oliveira

Deniz is such a pita


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## bryla

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> Deniz is such a pita


wow.... just.... wow


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## Andrajas

She is trying hard to be polite, but damn she is rude…..


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## RiffWraith

Andrajas said:


> She is trying hard to be polite, but damn she is rude…..



She is not trying hard to be polite - she is trying hard to be sarcastic.

The problem here is people stay in the group. Why does everyone not just leave? Are they really benefiting from staying?


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## pkm

RiffWraith said:


> She is not trying hard to be polite - she is trying hard to be sarcastic.
> 
> The problem here is people stay in the group. Why does everyone not just leave? Are they really benefiting from staying?


They were when Richard was there.


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## Mystic

She's very narcissistic. It has to be all about her even though her own experience is extremely limited. She feeds off the attention of newbies because apart from the couple professionals who actually want to help them as well, they are the majority of people on her group who actually give her the time of day because they think she knows what she's talking about. After all, her name is in the title and that must mean something, right? If anyone else starts to get the attention, she boots them.


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## Greg

Why would people watch her videos when there are literally thousands of interviews and tutorials / studio tours with pro composers on youtube?


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## Teal Seal

She shot herself in the foot with this one. Richard Kraft was the only reason to visit that page. Well, other than the unintended comedy.


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## Mystic

There is another mass exodus going on in her group it would seem. A new one has been opened which, amazingly, she is promoting on her own group.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/556877397821248/


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## d.healey

Mystic said:


> There is another mass exodus going on in her group it would seem. A new one has been opened which, amazingly, she is promoting on her own group.
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/556877397821248/


I've just joined. Richard has moved over to this group too.


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## bryla

And Deane Ogden just wrote a massive Facebook post about this as I was thinking of rejoining the group to infiltrate it. Reading his post made me reconsider


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## marclawsonmusic

Oh dear. Another one bites the dust!


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## Hannes_F

This is such a gossipy thread.


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## Gabriel Oliveira

Hannes_F said:


> This is such a gossipy thread.



no gossip, just facts


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## Daryl

Hannes_F said:


> This is such a gossipy thread.


Oh come on. If it wasn't for gossiping, most media composers would actually have to do some work. Procrastination is everything in this gig.


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## Mystic

Hannes_F said:


> This is such a gossipy thread.


I see it as more as making people aware of the stupid crap going on within our industry so they can avoid at all costs. Especially as more new people enter our area of work and start looking for resources.


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## Teal Seal

Mystic said:


> There is another mass exodus going on in her group it would seem. A new one has been opened which, amazingly, she is promoting on her own group.
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/556877397821248/


Wow, already 713 members in less than a day.


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## Teal Seal

Hannes_F said:


> This is such a gossipy thread.


Maybe it sounds that way, but it's a legitimate topic, because in my opinion, the "advice" she gives on her Facebook page is often downright bad. Worse, she doesn't tolerate opinions differing from hers, so if someone posts a contrary opinion, she often deletes them. (Happened to me.) So poor advice often goes unchecked.

For that reason alone, I believe this is a worthy topic, especially in this particular sub-forum. I would go so far as to recommend aspiring composers *not* go to her Facebook page. In fact, I sincerely believe that it's a service to the membership to warn them. I find it sad when I see her post "advice" that I know is wrong, and then unsuspecting people respond with thanks, indicating they apparently plan to actually _take_ the bad advice.

People commenting about her booting Richard Kraft from her page may seem gossipy, but it's further evidence of how poor her ability to assess a situation and make decisions is. Seriously, freakin' Richard Kraft is on her page giving tons of advice. He's a guy who is about as experienced and knowledgable as you can get, he's never said a rude word, and even when he disagrees with Deniz, he's always polite. Yet because of no conceivable reason other than narcism, Deniz boots him.

Check out her page and you will see multiple examples of similar bad decision making (although probably none so colossally bad as this one) and poor advice where you have to scratch your head and wonder what exactly are her motivations.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Teal Seal said:


> Maybe it sounds that way, but it's a legitimate topic, because in my opinion, the "advice" she gives on her Facebook page is often downright bad. Worse, she doesn't tolerate opinions differing from hers, so if someone posts a contrary opinion, she often deletes them. (Happened to me.) So poor advice often goes unchecked.
> 
> For that reason alone, I believe this is a worthy topic, especially in this particular sub-forum. I would go so far as to recommend aspiring composers *not* go to her Facebook page. In fact, I sincerely believe that it's a service to the membership to warn them. I find it sad when I see her post "advice" that I know is wrong, and then unsuspecting people respond with thanks, indicating they apparently plan to actually _take_ the bad advice.
> 
> People commenting about her booting Richard Kraft from her page may seem gossipy, but it's further evidence of how poor her ability to assess a situation and make decisions is. Seriously, freakin' Richard Kraft is on her page giving tons of advice. He's a guy who is about as experienced and knowledgable as you can get, he's never said a rude word, and even when he disagrees with Deniz, he's always polite. Yet because of no conceivable reason other than narcism, Deniz boots him.
> 
> Check out her page and you will see multiple examples of similar bad decision making (although probably none so colossally bad as this one) and poor advice where you have to scratch your head and wonder what exactly are her motivations.



I don´t know that woman at all and whatever she might have done in her past life and I don´t care at all but just from reading that "female composers thread" by picking up a certain webpage to illustrate some problems in the industry I got pretty much confused if her problem obviously is more a personal related one connected deeply with her own personality. This other guy was even nice to her trying to explain (for what? I ask myself). I had given her the my mightly middlefinger and left the group when I would be that guy. Thats my point of view.


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## JJP

Teal Seal said:


> Wow, already 713 members in less than a day.



I was added by someone. Then I saw Kraft spamming the group reposting questions meant for him and promptly left. Life's too short to waste time with that guy's narcissistic shenanigans.

He'll probably jump on this forum in the name of "helping the community" with posts demanding I explain myself and provide evidence in 3... 2... 1...


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## d.healey

JJP said:


> I was added by someone. Then I saw Kraft spamming the group reposting questions meant for him and promptly left. Life's too short to waste time with that guy's narcissistic shenanigans.
> 
> He'll probably jump on this forum in the name of "helping the community" with posts demanding I explain myself and provide evidence in 3... 2... 1...


Facebook does provide an easy way for us to hide all posts from a user


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## Alastair

JJP said:


> I was added by someone. Then I saw Kraft spamming the group reposting questions meant for him and promptly left. Life's too short to waste time with that guy's narcissistic shenanigans.
> 
> He'll probably jump on this forum in the name of "helping the community" with posts demanding I explain myself and provide evidence in 3... 2... 1...



Richard asked in one thread whether anyone had any questions for him and the community. There were many, and the best way to answer them is in a separate post - which he made himself and has so far contributed and answered each individually, along with many other people. It's the best way as it's very easy now to search for information via the search box, rather than all the questions being answered in one thread. It's really the perfect way to run a group. It's anyone's loss if they can't appreciate what he's doing out of his own generosity.


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## JJP

Alastair said:


> It's anyone's loss if they can't appreciate what he's doing out of his own generosity.



When somebody added me, I wasn't aware that group was going to be another episode of the Richard show. Already seen too much of his regular pattern of antics on the web and around town. He's not the kind of person with whom I want to be associated, so I generally try to steer clear of him.


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## afterlight82

It reminds me of a time where for another composer I was working for we put out a call for resumes for an assistant. 642 resumes later...I figured out that they have a class at some of these schools on how to put your resume together, where they coach them to use this font, order it a certain way, etc. - since about 200 of them looked quite literally _identical_. I'm sure there were immensely talented people in that pile but they made my head hurt, and from that day forward I figured out that if somebody is that happy to have their individuality coached out of them then....well...maybe it's not going to work. I'm assuming that at least a few of them regained it once they realized the coaching wasn't a good idea and well, practical experience is everything.

Most of what I really value I learned practically, under a fair amount of pressure and it was sink or swim...so you'd better get swimming. I can't stand the kind of advice that is the happy-clappy "you're so awesome just be yourself" stuff and "they should be sooooo thrilled to have your immense knowledge on their unworthy project" kind of BS for some fresh out of college kid. Just get on with the effing job and do it to the best of your ability, work hard and *don't be an arsehole*, communicate with the filmmakers and listen, and you stand as decent chance as you could hope for of getting rehired. That's it. I've found there's a lot of platitudes out there, a great many - but very little in the way of paying heed to actual commercial concerns.


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## Daryl

afterlight82 said:


> It reminds me of a time where for another composer I was working for we put out a call for resumes for an assistant. 642 resumes later...I figured out that they have a class at some of these schools on how to put your resume together, where they coach them to use this font, order it a certain way, etc. - since about 200 of them looked quite literally _identical_.


I have a system for reading CVs. If I can't glean the required general information and skills in a couple of seconds, they go in the bin. If I can, they go on the "maybe" pile. That way it is very easy to cut them down to a manageable number. It's just unfortunate that the applicants who have relied on prose, rather than bullet points, don't get a look-in.

I then have a weighting system on a spreadsheet and they get a certain number of points for having, and mentioning, the skills we're looking for. For example someone who says that they can use both OSX and Windows gets more points than someone who doesn't say anything.

Then the people at the top of the list get offered an interview. The people at the middle don't.


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## Jaap

Alastair said:


> Richard asked in one thread whether anyone had any questions for him and the community. There were many, and the best way to answer them is in a separate post - which he made himself and has so far contributed and answered each individually, along with many other people. It's the best way as it's very easy now to search for information via the search box, rather than all the questions being answered in one thread. It's really the perfect way to run a group. It's anyone's loss if they can't appreciate what he's doing out of his own generosity.



Yeah I agree and though it looked a bit overwhelming at first, it contains a tremendous amount of info and resources to be honest and good and lively discussions going on!


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## eric_w

Feminism ftw


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## Zhao Shen

The groups she runs are solid sources of info. Her personality is a different story - she seems to often take offense and be self-righteous. Just today someone made a comment about why they personally felt annoyed by the current state of "political correctness," and her answer was to passive-aggressively call him out for being a white male. But it's generally pretty easy to tune out her posts and only sift through the good stuff.


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## Mystic

Zhao Shen said:


> The groups she runs are solid sources of info. Her personality is a different story - she seems to often take offense and be self-righteous. Just today someone made a comment about why they personally felt annoyed by the current state of "political correctness," and her answer was to passive-aggressively call him out for being a white male. But it's generally pretty easy to tune out her posts and only sift through the good stuff.


Problem is she's banning all the sources of good information. There have been a lot of people there over the years who were posting really good quality posts and links. She would get offended (because they weren't posted by her or about her) and eventually kick them out for no good reason. That was the case with Richard this time around and he's not the first. I don't find a whole lot of what she posts herself to be useful. I think it comes from her own actual inexperience in the industry.


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## Zhao Shen

Mystic said:


> Problem is she's banning all the sources of good information. There have been a lot of people there over the years who were posting really good quality posts and links. She would get offended (because they weren't posted by her or about her) and eventually kick them out for no good reason. That was the case with Richard this time around and he's not the first. I don't find a whole lot of what she posts herself to be useful. I think it comes from her own actual inexperience in the industry.


Hm, did not know about this! She's incredibly self-centered, but I never imagined that she was at the point of resenting wisdom.


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## Lionel Schmitt

Sorry if I repeat things that have already been said but I use this oppotunity to say something about this strange "no women/african-american" discussion.
Nobody in the industry cares about your color, gender or how many heads you have. Let's take the production/trailer music industry for a reference.
I'm involved as listener since around 3 years because you can mostly listen to the full legally and for free . But I'm also starting as a prod./trailer music composer. I'm half african, half german by the way. Call me brownie.  
I know hundreds of such sites and there are veeery few female or colored (correct word?) composers involved. But there are! So why should those "selected ones" pass the racism/sexism that allegedly rules the industry? 
This for example is a list of composers working for one of the bigger music libraries. https://www.audionetwork.com/composers
99% men. But if the discriminate female writers it should be 100%. And even this would not be a proof.

I think it's just a natural thing that the vast majority of the media industry consists of white men. Why do some people always search for signs of discrimination and interprete natural facts as such? Maybe to let out the anger that we all store inside for a "good cause". Or inferiority complex.


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## Mystic

Here's the problem that I have with this whole women/race in the industry stuff:

The problem isn't that there is a bias, the problem is that there are simply less people interested in breaking out or the ones that are interested just haven't made their mark yet. We're in an industry where there is a lot of remote working and seclusion. I actually see very few of my clients and very few of them have ever seen me. Why? Because my work is audible, not visual and I never have a need to meet people. They don't care what I look like, they care what their end product they are paying me for sounds like. Not once has anyone asked my gender (and I have one of those names that could be either) or skin colour.

No, people just love to dig for issues that they can bitch about even if the problem isn't really a problem at all. Was there once a bias? Maybe, I can't say for sure, but that is long gone in our digital media age.


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## RiffWraith

DarkestShadow said:


> Sorry if I repeat things that have already been said but I use this oppotunity to say something about this strange "no women/african-american" discussion.
> Nobody in the industry cares about your color, gender or how many heads you have. Let's take the production/trailer music industry for a reference.
> I'm involved as listener since around 3 years because you can mostly listen to the full legally and for free . But I'm also starting as a prod./trailer music composer. I'm half african, half german by the way. Call me brownie.
> I know hundreds of such sites and there are veeery few female or colored (correct word?) composers involved. But there are! So why should those "selected ones" pass the racism/sexism that allegedly rules the industry?
> This for example is a list of composers working for one of the bigger music libraries. https://www.audionetwork.com/composers
> 99% men. But if the discriminate female writers it should be 100%. And even this would not be a proof.
> 
> I think it's just a natural thing that the vast majority of the media industry consists of white men. Why do some people always search for signs of discrimination and interprete natural facts as such? Maybe to let out the anger that we all store inside for a "good cause". Or inferiority complex.



Not sure how to take your post. I see it as either:

1. You find it strange that people claim there is bias against women and African-Americans, and that people are trying very hard to find signs of bias and discrimination, even tho there might not be any.

2. You feel there is a strong bias against women and African-Americans, and are saying that the vast majority of the media industry consists of white men due to bias, and discrimination.

Not sure which it is (or something else?), but I can say this:

_Nobody in the industry cares about your color, gender or how many heads you have.
_
- is not exactly true. Well, the head thing.... 

There has been a bias in the film and media industries for a long time. Not so much against minorities (tho some, for sure), but against women - in _some areas_. Not all. All you need to do is look at film editing crews, and you will see as clear as day that there is no bias against women there. Things are changing a bit, however, as society changes, but is still a bias there. Thing is - and we touched on this in another thread recently - when you look at he film industry, a lot of positions have been historically held by men because they were areas women typically did not go after.... which I think Mystic touched on a bit.

Cheers.


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## afterlight82

Humble two cents to add...

I think that's a flawed argument - there aren't more women composers because they just haven't "broken out" yet or aren't interested in breaking out...I'm not sure that's quite right. In fact, I'm sure it's not right, or at least the whole story.

There is an indubitable male slant to the "upper management" (= head of department) level of this business, and it is harder for women composers to break out, for whatever reason. There are plenty of female composers out there, especially of recent years, I've talked to several media composition classes at several schools and it was certainly heading towards 40-60 if not 50-50 gender-wise. Yet, there's few breaking through, few on agency rosters...plenty of young male composers getting their first gigs...

It's not an "active" bias - it certainly used to be, but now it's not and I think you are correct in that sense - but...it's a passive bias, due to the fact that the vast majority of senior executives are men (the vast majority - at Sony, pre-hack, the top 15 were all men apart from Amy Pascal, and she was a rare example of someone paid equal to her male counterpart). It's not because they're actively trying to not hire women, it's just that it's such an ingrained slant that it'd actually be considered an "interesting" pick to hire a female DP, or a female composer. It's not sexism and it's not like a Mad Men situation...per se...it's just that it's become normal, such that nobody even really thinks about it unless it is pointed out.

Let's imagine the next Bond film was scored by Rachel Portman. We can all imagine the NPR story - it won't be about how she's done loads of films, won an Oscar and is one of the most accomplished composers around who is probably perfectly capable of working in just about any genre; the coverage would _inevitably_ be partly about the fact that she'd be a woman scoring a Bond movie, a "macho" action film, and you can imagine the kind of unintentionally chauvinistic questions. It'd be churlish, or a utopian mindset to think that that wouldn't be the case. (I heard quite a few people, serious, intelligent people who can remain nameless, asking if Thomas Newman could score Bond right given that he wasn't _British_, for crying out loud)....

That's just a hypothetical, mind you. I wish I'm wrong....but I'm pretty sure I'm not.

Other roles pretty rare for women include DP and first AD - for no especially good reason whatsoever. No woman has ever been even _nominated_ for best cinematography in either the Academy Awards or the Globes, I believe...not even one nomination, let alone an award...but they clearly don't have inferior eyes. Only a couple of dozen out of a thousand or so people allowed to put A.S.C. after their name have been female. And similar to composers, nobody cares what the DP _looks_ like - and there are plenty of people on set of both genders, so if there was an equal playing field you'd expect more of both of those roles - and others. There are plenty of women doing all levels of job on set - except at HOD level. Here are the numbers - eighteen months ago a study found that in that 2014, only 2 out of the top 100 grossing movies were directed by women; and that 95% of cinematographers, 89% of writers, 81% of EPs, 77% of Producers working that year were men. In the same year 95% of the Oscar _eligible_ scores were written by men. (The producer number is an interesting shift, because that was certainly in the 90's thirty years prior, so I think there is good hope). In most other industries - especially heavily unionized ones - there would be lawsuits galore, as well as federal civil rights investigations. (In fact, there is an ongoing federal investigation by the EEOC).

This is not a case of "not breaking out". It's not literally sexism either, because you are right that this is not an industry full of awful people - it's simply an endemic problem that has been part of film since it started and needs to gradually rectified, and if there is indeed no active bias, then it will be, inevitably, over time.

I personally think it'll gradually start to disappear in a few generations, and in 2075 the situation will be quite different - I hope it will it be - but it is still there now. If you don't believe me, just talk to some of the top female editors - there are a few, I've worked with/know at least two of the top ten, and they definitely have a harder time getting certain genres of movie than male editors, despite the fact that is the one field that has always been reasonably even. Or talk to the many female directors, and not just film students, working directors (~93-95% of studio movies each year are male directed). Or try and find a major female DP. (There are a few - Maryse Alberti and Ellen Kuras spring to mind (see especially Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, which was just beautifully shot)).


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## d.healey

afterlight82 said:


> in 2075 the situation will be quite different


We'll all be out of the job and robots will be writing the music. I'll relax and my robot servant will do everything for me


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## afterlight82

d.healey said:


> We'll all be out of the job and robots will be writing the music. I'll relax and my robot servant will do everything for me



my future robot assistant is definitely already fired for not having designed a time machine to come back and help me now


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## d.healey

afterlight82 said:


> my future robot assistant is definitely already fired for not having designed a time machine to come back and help me now


Could he come back to a time before he invented the time machine?


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## afterlight82

Must remember to put "suspension of causality" on the job requirements...


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## Mystic

afterlight82 said:


> I think that's a flawed argument - there aren't more women composers because they just haven't "broken out" yet or aren't interested in breaking out...I'm not sure that's quite right. In fact, I'm sure it's not right, or at least the whole story.


What I'd like to see is the numbers. How many women are actively seeking employment in certain positions vs men? Let's say there is a composer job open. How many women vs men are trying to get that job? Plus, who is to say they just aren't picking the best candidate for the job and the majority of the time they happen to be male? After all, there is a 50% chance they are going to be one or the other and depending on what the gender split is, let's say 20% female vs 80% male applying for it, the odds are against the chance of that job going to a female based on numbers alone and that still has nothing to do with whether or not they are what the person hiring is what they are looking for in a composer as far as their ability to make the music they are seeking.

Plus, how many of these women in university classes are pushing themselves as hard as some of the men to get these jobs? How do we even know they are attempting to get the same jobs? Do we know what their goals are after university? Do those goals change? Are we including the amount of people who didn't go to college but are in the industry? I've never gone to college for composition so I'm not included in that statistic but I still actively work in the industry. There is just a lot of data that is missing and a lot of comments being made to push a certain agenda that cannot be answered without that data unless one of these people who do the hiring actually comes forward and says, "I choose males over females".


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## d.healey

You know, it could be that just like with plumbing, programming, carpentry, electrics, and a ton of other jobs, women on the whole just aren't that into it (my mum's a programmer and electronics engineer fyi). In the same way that certain careers don't appeal as much to men. I don't hear people complaining there aren't enough male baby sitters (then again I think parents are prejudice against having some dude looking after their kids).

It's not the industry being prejudice necessarily (all though I'm sure that that is a factor sometimes). Count how many amateur or hobbyist composers are on this forum and then count the number that are female - no one stops you having a hobby. There are certain things that appeal more to one gender than the other.

When I was at university (studying digital music and software dev) there were two female students on the same course, one dropped out, the other passed with high grades. The course was later dropped as there weren't enough students joining. They had a class to fill and failed to do so with either gender, the course just didn't appeal to many people.


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## Daryl

The interesting thing is that in certain parts of the music profession women outnumber the men by a huge degree. For example, go to any music college and look at the gender breakdown in the Strings and Piano departments. Many more women than men.

You'll also find that in concert music composition, women seem (no hard evidence here) to be represented to a greater degree, so there is something about media music that puts them off. I don't buy the technology thing totally, although it does seem that more boys enjoy messing around with such things at school than girls. However, if this was a case of pressure from boys stopping the girls from taking it up in the first place, it should be a different story at an all girls school, but it isn't.

My theory, based on teaching a lot of kids of all ages is that there is something in the way girls and boys think, whether genetic or taught, that is different, and this happens at a very early age. It's not that girls aren't creative. They are. However, I have found that boys tend to want to mess around and girls like to get things right. As improvisation is all about messing around and seeing what happens, it may be that this is why boys tend to get into media music more than girls, but when it comes to music where study really matters, girls seem to be a higher proportion.

I think it's no accident that there are more women studying Strings and Piano at a higher level. These instruments take much more practice than any of the others instruments, and require a certain mindset, which involves getting things right, and not just messing around. It could be that the seemingly natural arrogance of boys is pushing them into professions that is over-run with "chancers", whereas girls are put off because they feel that they don't know anything or are not good enough....!

In my mind, all gender inbalances (just like racial ones) are not necessarily caused by discrimination, although they could be. So if it turns out that girls are less likely to want to get into media music, that doesn't matter. What does matter is that the ones who do are not dissuaded from doing so, and are supported in their goals. It's a bit like boys who want to become ballet dancers. They need to be supported, even though many of their own gender may try to dissuade them from doing so.


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## d.healey

A thing I notice in bands is very few female lead guitarists but a good number of good singers, bassists, and drummers


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## Baron Greuner

d.healey said:


> A thing I notice in bands is very few female lead guitarists but a good number of good singers, bassists, and drummers



You'd be surprised. Here's a good one.


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## Baron Greuner

I'm pretty sure that's not Deniz btw.


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## d.healey

I should have said relatively few rather than very few I think 

Here's one of my favourites:


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## jacobthestupendous

This disinterested sixteen year-old girl is my guitar hero.


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## RiffWraith

d.healey said:


> A thing I notice in bands is very few female lead guitarists but a good number of good singers, bassists, and drummers



Correct. _Very few_. Probably b/c lead guitar playing, to a large extent - and for better or for worse - is a male ego thing.


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## afterlight82

Mystic said:


> What I'd like to see is the numbers. How many women are actively seeking employment in certain positions vs men? Let's say there is a composer job open. How many women vs men are trying to get that job? Plus, who is to say they just aren't picking the best candidate for the job and the majority of the time they happen to be male? After all, there is a 50% chance they are going to be one or the other and depending on what the gender split is, let's say 20% female vs 80% male applying for it, the odds are against the chance of that job going to a female based on numbers alone and that still has nothing to do with whether or not they are what the person hiring is what they are looking for in a composer as far as their ability to make the music they are seeking.
> 
> Plus, how many of these women in university classes are pushing themselves as hard as some of the men to get these jobs? How do we even know they are attempting to get the same jobs? Do we know what their goals are after university? Do those goals change? Are we including the amount of people who didn't go to college but are in the industry? I've never gone to college for composition so I'm not included in that statistic but I still actively work in the industry. There is just a lot of data that is missing and a lot of comments being made to push a certain agenda that cannot be answered without that data unless one of these people who do the hiring actually comes forward and says, "I choose males over females".



That's an aspect of it it for sure, and well thought out......most unions are pretty tight-lipped on membership numbers by gender which makes it hard to judge how much of the work is based on who is applying. I do know that the top flight editors I've worked with who are female, they say that they struggle getting certain kinds of film. These are people with long resumes in an field that's more even than most (or was when it involved actually cutting something physically, it'd be interesting to see if it skews back).

That said, it could also be said that women may not bother going down the path knowing that the playing field at the end of it isn't likely to be even....there's lots of aspects to it, and in music, we definitely don't have the numbers either way. That said, it's a very male-skewed industry no matter which way you want to slice it, and there's no real reason for it...and it'd be nice to have a few more female A list composers.


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## Smikes77

RiffWraith said:


> Correct. _Very few_. Probably b/c lead guitar playing, to a large extent - and for better or for worse - is a male ego thing.



Reminds of the guitar and light bulb joke...how many guitarist does it take to change a light bulb?

5. One to change it and the other 4 to say how much better they could have done it. So true!


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## RiffWraith

Smikes77 said:


> Reminds of the guitar and light bulb joke...how many guitarist does it take to change a light bulb?
> 
> 5. One to change it and the other 4 to say how much better they could have done it. So true!


----------



## Mike Greene

RiffWraith said:


> Correct. _Very few_. Probably b/c lead guitar playing, to a large extent - and for better or for worse - is a male ego thing.


Yep. There's also a lot of motivation in the "lead guitar gets the girls" mentality. That certainly motivated me.

Regarding the various directions boys and girls go into, I think Daryl is dead on. I'll add that that boys are generally less mature than girls, plus more prone to ADHD, both of which will be factors in what one excels at. Classical piano or violin study requires a ton of focus and dedication, which (and yes, I'm over-generalizing) is a bigger biological challenge for boys. Rock and roll guitar also takes a ton of practice, of course, but it's a style better suited to the ADD kid.

In fact, it's interesting that there are numerous videos of exceptionally talented girls playing rock leads, yet those are *copies* of someone else's leads. Masterfully done, but still unoriginal copies. Speaking for myself, I've never done that. I've copied riffs, but never deconstructed an entire solo. It doesn't interest me, and frankly, given my male-brain tendencies, I don't think i would be good at it. Yet I can solo all day long. That's not a knock on female guitarists, mind you, but I would encourage these young ladies to now go forth and do their own thing. A band with a smoking female lead player would get a lot of attention.


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## Smikes77

RiffWraith said:


>



Wait...I have a better one...let me just get my book...


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## tack

jacobthestupendous said:


> This disinterested sixteen year-old girl is my guitar hero.


I know this isn't quite how you meant it, but I'll just say that nobody gets that good without being seriously, seriously interested in what they're doing.


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## Smikes77

Mike Greene said:


> Yep. There's also a lot of motivation in the "lead guitar gets the girls" mentality. That certainly motivated me.
> 
> Regarding the various directions boys and girls go into, I think Daryl is dead on. I'll add that that boys are generally less mature than girls, plus more prone to ADHD, both of which will be factors in what one excels at. Classical piano or violin study requires a ton of focus and dedication, which (and yes, I'm over-generalizing) is a bigger biological challenge for boys. Rock and roll guitar also takes a ton of practice, of course, but it's a style better suited to the ADD kid.
> 
> In fact, it's interesting that there are numerous videos of exceptionally talented girls playing rock leads, yet those are *copies* of someone else's leads. Masterfully done, but still unoriginal copies. Speaking for myself, I've never done that. I've copied riffs, but never deconstructed an entire solo. It doesn't interest me, and frankly, given my male-brain tendencies, I don't think i would be good at it. Yet I can solo all day long. That's not a knock on female guitarists, mind you, but I would encourage these young ladies to now go forth and do their own thing. A band with a smoking female lead player would get a lot of attention.



I`d also like to add that it takes less time to be impressive on lead guitar, not long and you`re playing solos. Piano...takes much much longer.


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## RiffWraith

Smikes77 said:


> I`d also like to add that it takes less time to be impressive on lead guitar, not long and you`re playing solos. Piano...takes much much longer.



That's BS. Sorry - it just is.


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## Smikes77

RiffWraith said:


> That's BS. Sorry - it just is.



Sorry - it`s not


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## marclawsonmusic

Smikes77 said:


> Sorry - it`s not


Depends on who you're trying to impress!


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## Smikes77

marclawsonmusic said:


> Depends on who you're trying to impress!



I`ll re-phrase then. It takes longer to sound cool playing classical piano than it does playing lead electric guitar.


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## RiffWraith

Smikes77 said:


> Sorry - it`s not



It is.

"not long and you`re playing solos". True. But of what caliber?

By the same token, not long, and you`re playing up and down, all over the piano. But of what caliber? They BOTH take time, practice, patience and effort to master.


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## RiffWraith

Smikes77 said:


> I`ll re-phrase then. It takes longer to sound cool playing classical piano than it does playing lead electric guitar.



That's an elitist BS attitude, pulled by many classical musicians. "I am better than you, because I play _classical music_, and you only play... that.... that.... _stuff_."

"Cool" is in the ear of the beholder. What is cool to some, is puke-worthy to others, and vice versa. You can not intelligently say that it takes longer to sound cool on one instrument than it does another. To some, Vladimir Horowitz sounded cool, and SVR sounded god-awful. You could argue that it took V.H. a lot longer to sound cool - to those people.

To others, SVR sounds cool, and V.H.'s playing is puke-worthy. You could argue that it took SVR a lot longer to sound cool - to those people.

It's all relative.


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## chillbot

In 20 years there will be a much higher percentage of women film composers throughout the world and in hollywood, possibly even closer to 50%. These things take time... we're less than 100 years from women voting in the US and only about 50 years past the "mad men" mentality of pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen. What's the huge rush? I know that *most* of the people in my generation that I associate with (late 30s to early 40s) are not the slightest bit sexist and would never think about gender (or race) when hiring someone over their actual qualifications. And I know from talking to the generation younger than me that it is even less so for them. And a lot of what is holding women back is a higher percentage (not necessarily a lot, but more) of sexism in the generation older than me, which tends to rule Hollywood at the moment. And even more so in the generation older than them. We are heading in the right direction, overall. Young girls need role models in the field and now that there are more role models and less sexism for every decade that passes it will eventually happen. Or maybe I'm just an optimist. But I don't understand any discussion (re: Deniz herself) that starts with "WHY ARE THERE SO MANY MEN SCORING FILMS". To me it's the same as poker... the reason the top poker players in the world tend to be men is simply because 95% of poker players happen to be men... despite the fact that poker, like film scoring, and unlike basketball or golf, is an occupation where men and women are essentially on the same playing field. But if 95% of the field happen to be men then just by statistics alone it stands to reason that the best of the field will also happen to be men. We need to discuss it with the youngest generation and in the schools, make young girls believe they can... and they can. When I was at USC 15 years ago I think we had 3/22 women in the class. That is certainly not going to get it done. But I notice that this years class has 5/20. That might be significant... from 14% to 25%. Sorry for the wall of text.


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## Smikes77

There`s no need to get upset. I`m guessing you are a guitarist who has taken offense to what I said. And you shouldn`t. It isn`t a bad thing to sound impressive faster on a guitar (and I didn`t say it`s easier to master).

Violin takes years before it`s pleasant to the ear, piano sounds more pleasant faster because you don`t have to worry about intonation, so yes I can say it takes longer on some instruments than others. Instruments do not have equal challenges/difficulty/learning curves. It`s just the way it is. Some instruments start easier than others. Guitar, for example is far more awkward than the piano, and hurts your fingers. You don`t get that with the piano. Kids often let the guitar slide off their lap if you don`t remind them to hold it properly. You don`t have to remind the kid to not fall off the piano stool (hopefully not anyway).

Your comparisons from Horowitz to SRV to VH etc is another discussion again, and slightly off topic.

You are right that BOTH take years to reach a high level and yes, it IS an attitude adopted by SOME classical musicians.

For the record, I make my living as a performer and teacher of both instruments. The pieces you get to play at Grade 4 Piano for example, don`t sound anywhere near as good as the pieces you get to play at Grade 4 electric guitar.

I don`t regard myself as a classical musician exclusively, as much as I don`t regard myself as a rock musician exclusively. And also for the record, I don`t adopt the same ignorant attitude as the classical musicians you have had the misfortune of meeting. 

Relax.


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## RiffWraith

Who's upset? I am not upset. An yes, I am a guitarist, but no, I did not take offense to what you said.


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## Smikes77

RiffWraith said:


> Who's upset? I am not upset. An yes, I am a guitarist, but no, I did not take offense to what you said.



Good.


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## Baron Greuner

RiffWraith said:


> That's an elitist BS attitude, pulled by many classical musicians. "I am better than you, because I play _classical music_, and you only play... that.... that.... _stuff_."



You can't compare rock guitar playing with classical piano. Very different deal. Classical piano can sound awful when played badly and rock guitar awesome when played well.


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## RiffWraith

Baron Greuner said:


> You can't compare rock guitar playing with classical piano.



In terms of length of time to really master - sure you can.



Baron Greuner said:


> Classical piano can sound awful when played badly and rock guitar awesome when played well.



Right - and classical piano can sound awesome when played well, and rock guitar can sound awful when played badly.

Cheers.


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## Baron Greuner

Thank you Geoffrey for that fascinating insight.

All instruments take forever to play well, but as a guitar player and keyboard player there is world difference in the two.


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## jacobthestupendous

As a violist and a guitarist, I feel qualified in saying that it is much easier to make a guitar sound decent than it is to make a viola sound decent.


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## Jdiggity1

It's all pedals, pitch-bends and vibrato...


----------



## Hannes

Smikes77 said:


> Your comparisons from Horowitz to SRV to VH etc is another discussion again, and slightly off topic.


Well, the whole discussion about guitar and piano players is already slightly off topic in this thread...
so I guess it's an Off-Topiception? 

But I think I know what you mean - when I was 8 I started practising piano and a friend of mine learnt guitar. After a year I was a bit jealous, because he could play cool riffs and solos, which already sounded awesome, while I still had to practise basic piano pieces/exercises. And when I tried to play riffs or solos, it just didn't sound as cool as on the guitar...


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## Smikes77

Tastenklopfer said:


> Well, the whole discussion about guitar and piano players is already slightly off topic in this thread...
> so I guess it's an Off-Topiception?
> 
> But I think I know what you mean - when I was 8 I started practising piano and a friend of mine learnt guitar. After a year I was a bit jealous, because he could play cool riffs and solos, which already sounded awesome, while I still had to practise basic piano pieces/exercises. And when I tried to play riffs or solos, it just didn't sound as cool as on the guitar...



That's exactly it! Thank you! Riffwraith seems to think I am under valuing the length of time and effort it takes to become a high level guitarist, and I'm not. The instrument lends itself to being cooler faster. Piano doesn't get really good for years.


----------



## RiffWraith

Baron Greuner said:


> Thank you Geoffrey for that fascinating insight.
> 
> All instruments take forever to play well, but as a guitar player and keyboard player there is world difference in the two.



If you are going to be unnecessarily flippant and sarcastic, the least you could do is not intentionally misspell my name.


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## SymphonicSamples

I started on Violin as a kid , then Guitar by choice in my mid teens, to Classical guitar to slap Bass, back to Violin and finally Piano with an obsession. What was harder ?? None , all, probably the Harmonica  They all required a lot of time and dedication. Violin for me was the probably the most demanding, I think in most part due to it being the first instrument I learned. They all have different learning curves and even out in some way, and as with anything require the investment of time to get to a high level. Yes playing Rach 3 requires a sh_t ton of time to get to that level, but so does finding your own voice when soloing on guitar playing in a Neo-Classical style for example or playing the Pipe Organ using all 4 limbs in complex passage, or composing a piece of music that can stand the test of time, or cooking the perfect Roast !! One things for certain, Deniz is getting some nice exposure in this thread whatever way you view it


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## Smikes77

jacobthestupendous said:


> As a violist and a guitarist, I feel qualified in saying that it is much easier to make a guitar sound decent than it is to make a viola sound decent.



Absolutely agree.


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## devonmyles

Jdiggity1 said:


> It's all pedals, pitch-bends and vibrato...


 And, TAB of course.


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## Baron Greuner

Jdiggity1 said:


> It's all pedals, pitch-bends and vibrato...


Yes indeed. Keyboard players have always used these tools to sound good.


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## thesteelydane

Not to add fuel to the fire, but it's just a fact that intonation instruments, and bowed string instruments in particular, takes a whole lot more time to master to a professional level than other instruments. Go to any conservatory and compare the musicality of the pianists to the violinists, and the pianists will be years ahead in terms of being mature musicians with something to say and an understadning of phrasing, because us string players spend the first 10 years just learning how to produce a nice sound and being in tune. To get to a level of technical proficiency at the piano, where you can stop worrying about technique and start thinking about phrasing, even if just in a simple piece, is just easier. I'm sorry pianists and guitarists, it just is.

That's not to make one better than the other, and in hindsight there's a part of me that wishes I had picked an instrument that would have allowed me to develop my musicality instead of my technique, and I could have been out and about playing music, instead spending my youth in a practice room playing scales in slow motion.

There's a video of Perlman backing me up on this somewhere, and it's not like he has any trouble playing the violin, it's just what he has observed as a teacher at Juilliard over the years.


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## mscp

I tried to join her facebook page to check what it is all about, and not only she outright declined my request, but literally banned me from trying again. Now I can’t even see her page when I do a search.

All I did was answer “yes” to her question: “Are you a musician?”. What the...?

Was my name, written in asian characters, off putting to her? That’d be a bit..I dunno....


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## Kent

Phil81 said:


> I tried to join her facebook page to check what it is all about, and not only she outright declined my request, but literally banned me from trying again. Now I can’t even see her page when I do a search.
> 
> All I did was answer “yes” to her question: “Are you a musician?”. What the...?
> 
> Was my name, written in asian characters, off putting to her? That’d be a bit..I dunno....


Oh dear...looks like you dodged a bullet!


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## mscp

kmaster said:


> Oh dear...looks like you dodged a bullet!



really? how so? 😂


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## chillbot

Too bad if you got blocked (weird?) because if you hadn't or for any one not blocked, you can read the entire group on FB, it's not private. Just can't post unless you're a member, not sure why you'd want to post. Oh but for $100/month she will be your manager.


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## mscp

I didn't even know who this person was until recently. I just wanted to check my friend's reply on a particular topic. I'm just dumbfounded about her attitude. Was it because of my name (written in eastern characters)?  Or was it because I tersely answered her question instead of going for a more verbose approach? I'm a man of few words. 



chillbot said:


> Oh but for $100/month she will be your manager.



Shocking.


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## Mystic

I left her groups years ago after there was a whole bunch of drama on there where she showed her true colours.


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