# James Horner



## germancomponist

This year I used the Christmas days to explicitly listen to James Horner. I am amazed what a great composer James is!

James doesn't primarily work with sounds, as for example Hans Zimmer does, but with good compositions. I can tell he is very good at his craft and I bet James didn't need arrangers to implement his ideas. You can just hear it as he probably heard it in his head before the productions.

Thanks James for all of your compositions!

BTW: I think it's really nice that all composers are different!


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## Daniel

I will not forget him since 1997 (Titanic) until now.


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## marclawsonmusic

For sure he is one of my favorites!


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## Heinigoldstein

The intro sequence of „A beautiful Mind“ is one of my all time favorites.


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## cmillar

Yes! Horner was one of the heaviest of all time for my tastes.

And he could add the right synth colors and effects when needed for sure. He was a true artist...just listen to any of his interviews.

One of my favorite cues is the opening of ”Willow”....about 15 non-stop minutes of music that sets up the whole movie. Very few composers compare.


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## Consona

His Star Trek soundtracks are peak hollywood adventure music that goes unsurpassed for 40 years now. That's fcking something! Only Goldsmith and Williams could top that.

And if you like his Star Trek scores, go check Battle Beyond the Stars and Krull. It's basically the same music with slightly different themes. :D (Yea, he repeated himself way too much, but it's still great music...)
Also a lot of his sci-fi/fantasy music is picked up classical music or kinda faster Goldsmith. :D (I was listening to Jerry's Gremlins 1, where there's this fast very Hornerian passage, that makes you realize it's just fast Goldsmith. :D) Nonetheless, it rocks.


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## AlvinSWong

James Horner’s Bravehart score was a big one for me. The various melodic themes and leitmotifs in that masterpiece are as much of the emotion and story of the film as the visuals. The use of the right orchestration and appropriate instrumentation for the various scenes are a masterclass. Not to mention pacing and dynamics of how much music vs sfx and dialogue.


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## MauroPantin

My favourite of his is The Launch from Apollo 13. Long cue, with a beautifully written chorale that follows the dramatic pace very closely. Superb craft and skill.


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## iaink

Consona said:


> His Star Trek soundtracks are peak hollywood adventure music that goes unsurpassed for 40 years now. That's fcking something! Only Goldsmith and Williams could top that.
> 
> And if you like his Star Trek scores, go check Battle Beyond the Stars and Krull. It's basically the same music with slightly different themes. :D (Yea, he repeated himself way too much, but it's still great music...)
> Also a lot of his sci-fi/fantasy music is picked up classical music or kinda faster Goldsmith. :D (I was listening to Jerry's Gremlins 1, where there's this fast very Hornerian passage, that makes you realize it's just fast Goldsmith. :D) Nonetheless, it rocks.



An interesting anecdote is that Horner attended some or all of the Star Trek TMP scoring sessions. These sessions would have been a few months before he wrote the score for Battle Beyond the Stars.

It is easy to image him (Horner) being blown away by the majesty of that score. Some things are referenced a little more directly, while others - like the chromatic thirds, flat 6s, swirling string runs, etc. ended up woven into his 80s sound.

Not to take anything away from Horner ... he was a master of melody, orchestration, and storytelling.


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## South Thames

People might be interested in this (far as I know) rare footage of a baby-faced Horner conducting Something Wicked This Way Comes in 1983. The eagle-eyed might also spot a very young Shawn Murphy in the booth. I think this is in CBS Radford studios (later Todd AO, and now demolished).


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## JonS

germancomponist said:


> This year I used the Christmas days to explicitly listen to James Horner. I am amazed what a great composer James is!
> 
> James doesn't primarily work with sounds, as for example Hans Zimmer does, but with good compositions. I can tell he is very good at his craft and I bet James didn't need arrangers to implement his ideas. You can just hear it as he probably heard it in his head before the productions.
> 
> Thanks James for all of your compositions!
> 
> BTW: I think it's really nice that all composers are different!


I love Horner's original scores, especially his main themes, very Goldsmithesque. Listen closely to his action cues and you will hear very similar music film after film and if you closed your eyes you would not be able to tell which film this particular Horner action cue is for as many of them sound the same.


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## Beans

MauroPantin said:


> My favourite of his is The Launch from Apollo 13. Long cue, with a beautifully written chorale that follows the dramatic pace very closely. Superb craft and skill.


Fun fact: I used this track to get my snare VIs sounding like I want.


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## Greg

Every single time I hear one of his scores I immediately remember why I love cinema. They instantly take you away into another world


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## jonathanparham

I listened to an interview of his from 1992 where he says, I'll never work with Cameron again lol. little did he and the world know. In all seriousness, I spent a lot of 2020 listening to his final work (completed by Flanagan) on Magnificent 7. Also love Beautiful Mind


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## ScarletJerry

I loved how he would reuse elements of his own work. There are motifs in Titanic that can be clearly heard in Legends of the Fall (one of all time favorite movie scores). You can hear “My Heart will Go On” at about 01:50 At the beginning of the movie, followed by the beginning trumpet sound at the opening of Independence Day about a minute or so later. That score supported the visuals of that film more than any film that I can remember - when you heard the soaring soundtrack, you could just imagine yourself standing in an open plain in Big Sky country.

Scarlet Jerry


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## Fenicks

Titanic was the first score I fell in love with as a child.  Those uilleann pipes got me good...


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## David Kudell

I love James Horner‘s scores. His melodies are beautiful. So many great scores. I listened to Glory over and over when it came out.


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## Michael Antrum

My personal favourite is The Rocketeer. The opening in particular was masterful and set the scene perfectly.....


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## tehreal

I think Sneakers is underrated.


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## Peter Satera

So many amazing scores,. But the land before time is something that tends to get overlooked, pay off is immense. What a great composer...


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## I like music

OK, so he's probably one of my top 3 movie composers (Goldsmith, Horner, Williams) of all time.

BUT!!!

I have to admit, I've pissed myself laughing at the sheer cheek of the man sometimes, when he did shit like this (PS I'm hoping this doesn't descend into a 'Horner steals' thread). I'll allow myself just this one, because oh man, did he BORROW here or what?!?!?! Can you imagine being a player in the orchestra, turning up to record Land Before Time, and then you're like 'Wait, isn't this Prokofiev?'

Unless he was asked to do this by the director etc (please correct me if that's the case, because otherwise, like I said, I have to laugh)



Anyways, the man had magic in his musical mind (for the most part)


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## David Kudell

I like music said:


> OK, so he's probably one of my top 3 movie composers (Goldsmith, Horner, Williams) of all time.
> 
> BUT!!!
> 
> I have to admit, I've pissed myself laughing at the sheer cheek of the man sometimes, when he did shit like this (PS I'm hoping this doesn't descend into a 'Horner steals' thread). I'll allow myself just this one, because oh man, did he BORROW here or what?!?!?! Can you imagine being a player in the orchestra, turning up to record Land Before Time, and then you're like 'Wait, isn't this Prokofiev?'
> 
> Unless he was asked to do this by the director etc (please correct me if that's the case, because otherwise, like I said, I have to laugh)
> 
> 
> 
> Anyways, the man had magic in his musical mind (for the most part)



It’s possible he never heard it. “But how could he not?” you ask. Personally I’ve never heard a lot of classical music and film scores and inevitably I post something that sounds like something else I’ve never heard and someone will point it out. There’s not that many notes, it’s bound to happen, especially when you write simple melodies.


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## CT

I think he was definitely aware of "quoting" existing music! I've read about him seeing it as a musicological exercise or something, drawing parallels between the original context of the ideas and how he repurposed and transformed them. Don't quote me on that though since I can't remember now if that was from an actual interview, or just speculation from a Horner apologist.

Regardless, it's never really bothered me because he was an absolute treasure.


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## I like music

David Kudell said:


> It’s possible he never heard it. “But how could he not?” you ask. Personally I’ve never heard a lot of classical music and film scores and inevitably I post something that sounds like something else I’ve never heard and someone will point it out. There’s not that many notes, it’s bound to happen, especially when you write simple melodies.


While I most definitely agree with your more general point (I find myself deleting melodies every 5 minutes because I later remember that I was in fact inspired by someone else from years ago, and also I write such simple stuff that someone, somewhere else, has likely done that exact thing a hundred times over.)

In this particular example however, I just cannot shake the belief that he went all out and copied it (you know, with some nice Horner tweaks).

The phrase/melody is too sustained, the orchestration in parts too similar, some of those undulating patterns (hell, even when the choir comes in is too close). In fact, in the same film, he took Bartok's motif from one other piece. They are too distinct and sustained for it to be anything other than him extensively quoting them. Horner would likely have been aware of Bartok and Prokofiev's music, given his background (again, just a belief).

Just wanted to check something with you. I only posted the Prokofiev example and not the Horner example. Do you know which Horner piece I'm referring to? I realise that I just made the assumption that everyone would be aware of TLBT part that I was talking about, so didn't post it (my bad!)


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## I like music

Mike T said:


> I think he was definitely aware of "quoting" existing music! I've read about him seeing it as a musicological exercise or something, drawing parallels between the original context of the ideas and how he repurposed and transformed them. Don't quote me on that though since I can't remember now if that was from an actual interview, or just speculation from a Horner apologist.
> 
> Regardless, it's never really bothered me because he was an absolute treasure.


Your last sentence resonates. For some reason, Horner's the only guy I can't get mad at, when I hear him liberally quoting someone. 

There was something about his music that I just don't get from anyone else. There was a certain zing. Nothing I can point to on paper and say "see? there it is!." Just a personal preference for his music.

I also love all of his interviews, the way he talked about music, the business (not that I care for the business, being a total amateur with no designs on actually making money, or a name, from music)

Has anyone heard his Horsemen track? Honestly, when I listen to that, I feel like I'm flying. I could fight a grizzly bear if you put some headphones on me, and press play on that particular piece of music.


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## José Herring

I wore this record out in high school.


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## South Thames

> Just wanted to check something with you. I only posted the Prokofiev example and not the Horner example. Do you know which Horner piece I'm referring to? I realise that I just made the assumption that everyone would be aware of TLBT part that I was talking about, so didn't post it (my bad!)



I know exactly the bit you're speaking about in TLBT and yes, it's very obviously a rip off, and in a score that has quite a lot of that sort of thing. Horner quotes from Prokofiev all over the place -- even the first two bars on the main theme of Avatar were lifted from Glory, which in turn was lifted from Alexander Nevsky. I've never quite known what to think about it. In a way, it's completely maddening. Horner was clearly capable of inventing superior material, or paraphrasing material sufficiently that it wasn't an obvious steal (Williams' Adventure on Earth, an obvious paraphrase of Howard Hanson, comes to mind as a famous paraphrase which just about acquits itself) and even material he borrowed he often greatly clarified or enhanced, so why did he demean himself by so obviously using the material of others so much? It certainly wasn't a question of being compelled to do so by directors in all or even most cases.

I think it does ultimately unfortunately have to count against him in any critical appraisal, though at its best it's incorporated into his own material so musically that I find it doesn't ultimately affect my enjoyment of his work, and in many ways I enjoy it in spite of what I know.

The opening of the Land Before Time is a good example of the maddening confusion Horner creates for me -- it's clearly basically a rip off of the opening of the Wooden Prince, and yet... every time I listen to the Wooden Prince opening, I think of how much I prefer what Horner did with it, and how utterly right Horner's take on the material seems for the opening of that film (in a way that Bartok's just isn't).

Or the opening of Honey I Shrunk The Kids, which splices together comedic tics of Danny Elfman, Nina Rota and Raymond Scott in about two minutes, and yet is obviously Horner and not them.

Horner was a real paradox in that way -- an incredibly gifted, musical, fluent (some time) plagiarist. There are certainly not many of those.


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## VivianaSings

I remember ages ago how some critic said something like how Horner's greatest talent was being able to weave so much pre existing music into his own scores while always just staying beyond the reach of legal departments.


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## I like music

South Thames said:


> I know exactly the bit you're speaking about in TLBT and yes, it's very obviously a rip off, and in a score that has quite a lot of that sort of thing. Horner quotes from Prokofiev all over the place -- even the first two bars on the main theme of Avatar were lifted from Glory, which in turn was lifted from Alexander Nevsky. I've never quite known what to think about it. In a way, it's completely maddening. Horner was clearly capable of inventing superior material, or paraphrasing material sufficiently that it wasn't an obvious steal (Williams' Adventure on Earth, an obvious paraphrase of Howard Hanson, comes to mind as a famous paraphrase which just about acquits itself) and even material he borrowed he often greatly clarified or enhanced, so why did he demean himself by so obviously using the material of others so much? It certainly wasn't a question of being compelled to do so by directors in all or even most cases.
> 
> I think it does ultimately unfortunately have to count against him in any critical appraisal, though at its best it's incorporated into his own material so musically that I find it doesn't ultimately affect my enjoyment of his work, and in many ways I enjoy it in spite of what I know.
> 
> The opening of the Land Before Time is a good example of the maddening confusion Horner creates for me -- it's clearly basically a rip off of the opening of the Wooden Prince, and yet... every time I listen to the Wooden Prince opening, I think of how much I prefer what Horner did with it, and how utterly right Horner's take on the material seems for the opening of that film (in a way that Bartok's just isn't).
> 
> Or the opening of Honey I Shrunk The Kids, which splices together comedic tics of Danny Elfman, Nina Rota and Raymond Scott in about two minutes, and yet is obviously Horner and not them.
> 
> Horner was a real paradox in that way -- an incredibly gifted, musical, fluent (some time) plagiarist. There are certainly not many of those.



Pretty nice summation of my thoughts, which I couldn't quite articulate. Paradox is a good word for it.

In the end, I'm very sad that we missed out on more years of Horner, because he really could create magic. And yes, I also prefer his Wood Prince, and it was incorporated perfectly to the picture!


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## ryans

VivianaSings said:


> I remember ages ago how some critic said something like how Horner's greatest talent was being able to weave so much pre existing music into his own scores while always just staying beyond the reach of legal departments.


I think that's awfully harsh... Film composers are as much filmmakers as they are musicians and Horner had SO many talents beyond the actual notes...

I suspect this thread was created to tribute Horner, not bust him... so my apologies to the OP for carrying on this discussion, but... 

Were Horner's plagiarisms really so much worse than his fellow film composers? I've never really understood why he got singled out for this...


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## GNP

South Thames said:


> I think it does ultimately unfortunately have to count against him in any critical appraisal, though at its best it's incorporated into his own material so musically that I find it doesn't ultimately affect my enjoyment of his work, and in many ways I enjoy it in spite of what I know.
> 
> The opening of the Land Before Time is a good example of the maddening confusion Horner creates for me -- it's clearly basically a rip off of the opening of the Wooden Prince, and yet... every time I listen to the Wooden Prince opening, I think of how much I prefer what Horner did with it, and how utterly right Horner's take on the material seems for the opening of that film (in a way that Bartok's just isn't).
> 
> Or the opening of Honey I Shrunk The Kids, which splices together comedic tics of Danny Elfman, Nina Rota and Raymond Scott in about two minutes, and yet is obviously Horner and not them.
> 
> Horner was a real paradox in that way -- an incredibly gifted, musical, fluent (some time) plagiarist. There are certainly not many of those.



Well observed and felt. I've also noticed this. For example, Ryuichi Sakamoto's Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence, vs. Hans Zimmer's Black Rain theme. I felt Zimmer took the essense of Sakamoto's theme, but made it his own, and in fact, I actually kind of prefer how Zimmer did it.

This kind of discussion goes beyond "who ripped who off". It's really a world of essence-stealing-for-another-cause.


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## I like music

Is it true that Horner was literally writing the finale (queen fight) music _as_ the orchestra was recording the rest of the score? I can't remember if it is a rumour, or something he claimed, but I remember being massively impressed by this.


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## GNP

I like music said:


> Is it true that Horner was literally writing the finale (queen fight) music _as_ the orchestra was recording the rest of the score? I can't remember if it is a rumour, or something he claimed, but I remember being massively impressed by this.


Yes, it's true. And worse, the cut of the finale was not finalized! In fact, James Cameron and Gale Ann Hurd 'threatened' James that if he couldn't write for the finale, in which their cut wasn't finalized (!!!!), they would "find somebody else to do it". James Horner then told them,_ "Fine. Go ahead, if somebody can do this better than I already can, by all means"_.

But ultimately it was all war talk in the trenches, ya know. Eventually the whole thing was still salvaged. Damn.


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## I like music

GNP said:


> Yes, it's true. And worse, the cut of the finale was not finalized! In fact, James Cameron and Gale Ann Hurd 'threatened' James that if he couldn't write for the finale, in which their cut wasn't finalized (!!!!), they would "find somebody else to do it". James Horner then told them,_ "Fine. Go ahead, if somebody can do this better than I already can, by all means"_.
> 
> But ultimately it was all war talk in the trenches, ya know. Eventually the whole thing was still salvaged. Damn.


If a composer can write _that_ with zero time on the clock, then mad respect. Also, I love the confidence "Fine. Go ahead, if somebody can do this better than I already can, by all means."


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## South Thames

> Yes, it's true. And worse, the cut of the finale was not finalized! In fact, James Cameron and Gale Ann Hurd 'threatened' James that if he couldn't write for the finale, in which their cut wasn't finalized (!!!!), they would "find somebody else to do it". James Horner then told them,_ "Fine. Go ahead, if somebody can do this better than I already can, by all means"_.



The strange thing is that Horner's finale music for the Alien queen scene wasn't used -- it ended up being used in Die Hard. The music used in that scene was an editorial adaptation of Bishop's Countdown, used about 5 minutes earlier in the film. So although I've seen Horner/Gale Ann Hurd telling that story, I'm never quite sure which cue they are actually referring to.


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## South Thames

> Were Horner's plagiarisms really so much worse than his fellow film composers? I've never really understood why he got singled out for this...



In a word, yes. He did it more often and more blatantly than any other composer of a similar stature.


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## ryans

South Thames said:


> In a word, yes. He did it more often and more blatantly than any other composer of a similar stature.


You're probably right, I've never counted... and I'm such a Horner fanboy that I probably just subconsciously ignore it when I hear it hah..

I'm just wondering if his reputation as the guy who copied everyone is slightly unfair...

By comparison.. the original Star Wars score is considered a masterpiece (and no argument here) but I can hear the temp, blatantly.. in pretty much every track.


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## VivianaSings

ryans said:


> You're probably right, I've never counted... and I'm such a Horner fanboy that I probably just subconsciously ignore it when I hear it hah..
> 
> I'm just wondering if his reputation as the guy who copied everyone is slightly unfair...
> 
> By comparison.. the original Star Wars score is considered a masterpiece (and no argument here) but I can hear the temp, blatantly.. in pretty much every track.


I decided to check on Horner on Wikipedia and it actually has a section on him with regards to his "borrowing":

Horner was criticized more than once for reusing passages from his earlier compositions, and for featuring brief excerpts and reworked themes from classical composers.[5] For example, his scores from _Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan_ and _Star Trek III: The Search for Spock_ include excerpts from Prokofiev's _Alexander Nevsky_ and _Romeo and Juliet_;[40][41] the famous action ostinato from _Aliens_ is originally from _Wolfen_[42] and the film's main title is almost identical to Aram Khachaturian's Gayane Ballet Suite (Adagio) (already used in an outer space context in _2001: A Space Odyssey_); the heroic theme from _Willow_ is based on that of Robert Schumann's Rhenish Symphony; _Field of Dreams_ includes cues from the "Saturday Night Waltz" portion of Aaron Copland's ballet _Rodeo_, he deftly blended in part of an early theme from the 3rd movement of Shostakovich Symphony no. 5 into the scene of a raid on a desert IRA terrorist training camp in 1992 film _Patriot Games_, and the climactic battle scene in _Glory_ includes excerpts from Wagner and Orff.[43] Some critics felt these propensities made Horner's compositions inauthentic or unoriginal.[44][45][46] In a 1997 issue of _Film Score Monthly,_ an editorial review of _Titanic_ said Horner was "skilled in the adaptation of existing music into films with just enough variation to avoid legal troubles".[5]

On at least one occasion, Horner's musical borrowing almost led to litigation. Horner's main title for _Honey, I Shrunk the Kids_ (1989) incorporates cues from the score by Nino Rota from Federico Fellini's film _Amarcord_ (1973) and Raymond Scott’s piece "Powerhouse B" (1937), the latter often referenced in Carl Stalling’s Warner Bros. cartoon scores. Scott's piece was used without payment or credit, leading his estate to threaten legal action against Disney. Disney paid an undisclosed sum in an out-of-court settlement and changed the film's cue sheets to credit Scott.[47][48]


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## jonathanwright

Regarding Titanic, apparently Cameron had plastered temp tracks from Enya all over it, and originally wanted her to contribute to the soundtrack.

She refused, so Horner was left to 'adapt' her music.


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## kilgurt

"Land before time" is on of my favourites - such a nice melody! Unforgotten!


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## kilgurt

VivianaSings said:


> I decided to check on Horner on Wikipedia and it actually has a section on him with regards to his "borrowing":
> 
> Horner was criticized more than once for reusing passages from his earlier compositions, and for featuring brief excerpts and reworked themes from classical composers.[5] For example, his scores from _Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan_ and _Star Trek III: The Search for Spock_ include excerpts from Prokofiev's _Alexander Nevsky_ and _Romeo and Juliet_;[40][41] the famous action ostinato from _Aliens_ is originally from _Wolfen_[42] and the film's main title is almost identical to Aram Khachaturian's Gayane Ballet Suite (Adagio) (already used in an outer space context in _2001: A Space Odyssey_); the heroic theme from _Willow_ is based on that of Robert Schumann's Rhenish Symphony; _Field of Dreams_ includes cues from the "Saturday Night Waltz" portion of Aaron Copland's ballet _Rodeo_, he deftly blended in part of an early theme from the 3rd movement of Shostakovich Symphony no. 5 into the scene of a raid on a desert IRA terrorist training camp in 1992 film _Patriot Games_, and the climactic battle scene in _Glory_ includes excerpts from Wagner and Orff.[43] Some critics felt these propensities made Horner's compositions inauthentic or unoriginal.[44][45][46] In a 1997 issue of _Film Score Monthly,_ an editorial review of _Titanic_ said Horner was "skilled in the adaptation of existing music into films with just enough variation to avoid legal troubles".[5]
> 
> On at least one occasion, Horner's musical borrowing almost led to litigation. Horner's main title for _Honey, I Shrunk the Kids_ (1989) incorporates cues from the score by Nino Rota from Federico Fellini's film _Amarcord_ (1973) and Raymond Scott’s piece "Powerhouse B" (1937), the latter often referenced in Carl Stalling’s Warner Bros. cartoon scores. Scott's piece was used without payment or credit, leading his estate to threaten legal action against Disney. Disney paid an undisclosed sum in an out-of-court settlement and changed the film's cue sheets to credit Scott.[47][48]


Just watch Mike Verta's masterclass "On Horner" - eye opening (unfortunately)...


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## dcoscina

Horner's legacy will be in how he adapted music, original or otherwise, to match the drama of the film. In that regard, he was almost unequaled. He also had a propensity for long extended cues that retained interest which stems from his conservatory training no doubt.

I have mixed feelings about Horner. On one hand, I love how his music elevates the films they accompany. And some of his scores truly resonate with me (Rocketeer, Spitfire Grill, Braveheart, WoK, Aliens) while others that tend to recycle ideas from himself or others which can range from mildly distracting to frustrating.


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## dylanmixer

I just wanted to throw out how underrated I feel his score for Troy is. I had the (displeasure) of watching the directors cut, since that's all that is out on Blu-Ray, and was shocked to hear it all chopped up and subbed out with other generic action music from Planet of the Apes and such. Totally ruined the film for me. I've been trying to find a foreign Blu-Ray copy of the film for a while now since it contains Horner's original score. So epic and emotional, and I hear he did it in 3 weeks!


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## I like music

dylanmixer said:


> directors cut, since that's all that is out on Blu-Ray, and was shocked to hear it all chopped up and subbed out with other generic action music from Planet of the Apes and such


lol what? seems the director can't make up his mind! wasn't troy due to be scored by gabriel yared, and james horner was called in with 3 days notice? and now they stripped his music out too? crazy!


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## Nate Johnson

José Herring said:


> I wore this record out in high school.



His best work. All. Day. Long. One of the best sounding orchestral mixes EVER.

The vinyl sequence/cue selection absolutely rips!

The Search For Spock is wonderful as well. 

I also love Aliens - Main Titles


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## José Herring

dcoscina said:


> Horner's legacy will be in how he adapted music, original or otherwise, to match the drama of the film. In that regard, he was almost unequaled. He also had a propensity for long extended cues that retained interest which stems from his conservatory training no doubt.
> 
> I have mixed feelings about Horner. On one hand, I love how his music elevates the films they accompany. And some of his scores truly resonate with me (Rocketeer, Spitfire Grill, Braveheart, WoK, Aliens) while others that tend to recycle ideas from himself or others which can range from mildly distracting to frustrating.


I thought I was the only one that remember Spitfire Grill. Amazing score. He was given a lot of leeway because he did it on his own expense.


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## dcoscina

José Herring said:


> I thought I was the only one that remember Spitfire Grill. Amazing score. He was given a lot of leeway because he did it on his own expense.


I think it's one of Horner's best. Great film too.


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## ryans

I like music said:


> lol what? seems the director can't make up his mind! wasn't troy due to be scored by gabriel yared, and james horner was called in with 3 days notice? and now they stripped his music out too? crazy!


Here's Horner's side of the story on Troy... Old radio interview.
View attachment horner interview troy.mp3


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## I like music

ryans said:


> Here's Horner's side of the story on Troy... Old radio interview.
> View attachment horner interview troy.mp3


Thanks for this. Love listening to Horner talk. He seems very direct in expressing himself. I guess you can be critical when you've "made" it.

Need to find more interviews. I enjoy the glimpses of the artist you can get from his words (and also the way he talks about the practical day to day stuff involved in being a composer and effectively, an employee)


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## tebling

Nate Johnson said:


> His best work. All. Day. Long. One of the best sounding orchestral mixes EVER.


The Star Trek II main title was my first mockup - at age 12, on an Atari 800  I'll never forget it.


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## lux

dcoscina said:


> Horner's legacy will be in how he adapted music, original or otherwise, to match the drama of the film. In that regard, he was almost unequaled. He also had a propensity for long extended cues that retained interest which stems from his conservatory training no doubt.
> 
> I have mixed feelings about Horner. On one hand, I love how his music elevates the films they accompany. And some of his scores truly resonate with me (Rocketeer, Spitfire Grill, Braveheart, WoK, Aliens) while others that tend to recycle ideas from himself or others which can range from mildly distracting to frustrating.


To be completely honest I personally never found something by Horner which sounded distracting or frustrating to me. Some hardly mentioned scores by the man have their place in my favourites book, like The Perfect Storm, which I personally love. I understand why STTWOK deserves its place every time a Horner discussion arises, like the most agreeable, almost fetish, example of how orchestrally muscular the composer was able to sound. Still when I, Luca, think Horner, I think harp doubled with tremolos, a magically dark cascade bass piano arpeggio-to-note and the huge amount of small bits, recurring again and again. Like a trademark. Each time carrying a memorable melody. Each time givin that emotional added value to the story.


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## José Herring

lux said:


> To be completely honest I personally never found something by Horner which sounded distracting or frustrating to me. Some hardly mentioned scores by the man have their place in my favourites book, like The Perfect Storm, which I personally love. I understand why STTWOK deserves its place every time a Horner discussion arises, like the most agreeable, almost fetish, example of how orchestrally muscular the composer was able to sound. Still when I, Luca, think Horner, I think harp doubled with tremolos, a magically dark cascade bass piano arpeggio-to-note and the huge amount of small bits, recurring again and again. Like a trademark. Each time carrying a memorable melody. Each time givin that emotional added value to the story.


The Perfect Storm was perhaps the most perfect score of any film ever. The marriage of music to story and visual was incredible. 

It's funny that some of his loved scores by most are some of his worst imo. I think because they accompanied such great movies. But, his genius really was in making a not great movie watchable through his music. The Pelican Brief is also a brilliant score in an okay movie. Same with Sneakers and Krull.

The shame is that James Horner was really an unhappy man even with all his gifts and successes. After seeing him speak on his music and scores, even I left totally depressed about the state of music and films, ect... It was really sad.


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## dcoscina

José Herring said:


> The Perfect Storm was perhaps the most perfect score of any film ever. The marriage of music to story and visual was incredible.
> 
> It's funny that some of his loved scores by most are some of his worst imo. I think because they accompanied such great movies. But, his genius really was in making a not great movie watchable through his music. The Pelican Brief is also a brilliant score in an okay movie. Same with Sneakers and Krull.
> 
> The shame is that James Horner was really an unhappy man even with all his gifts and successes. After seeing him speak on his music and scores, even I left totally depressed about the state of music and films, ect... It was really sad.


I was told Horner suffered from Aspergers. Even his wife said in an interview that he related to music more than to people.


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## Banquet

José Herring said:


> The Perfect Storm was perhaps the most perfect score of any film ever. The marriage of music to story and visual was incredible.
> 
> It's funny that some of his loved scores by most are some of his worst imo. I think because they accompanied such great movies. But, his genius really was in making a not great movie watchable through his music. The Pelican Brief is also a brilliant score in an okay movie. Same with Sneakers and Krull.
> 
> The shame is that James Horner was really an unhappy man even with all his gifts and successes. After seeing him speak on his music and scores, even I left totally depressed about the state of music and films, ect... It was really sad.


When I recently bought really good headphones, the first thing I listened to on them was 'Let's Go Boys' and it was so beautiful I cried.


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## José Herring

dcoscina said:


> I was told Horner suffered from Aspergers. Even his wife said in an interview that he related to music more than to people.


Yeah makes sense. I got the overwhelming sense that people weren't real to him. Now I know why.


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## ryans

Hopefully everyone hasn't already seen this... he is more laid back and relaxed in this interview.

I did meet him once very briefly he did not come across as negative but rather quite warm and engaging.


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## Nate Johnson

That (or any) interview where he’s talking about Aliens would surely give the impression he’s a negative dude. To be fair though, it sounded like a obnoxiously high pressure situation (making that entire film, really). But a classic Hollywood success story nonetheless...


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## dylanmixer

ryans said:


> Here's Horner's side of the story on Troy... Old radio interview.
> View attachment horner interview troy.mp3


Wow, what a gem to hear him talk so openly and honestly about it. The man wrote a score in 9 days and they had the nerve to defile it in the directors cut? 🤦‍♂️ The man does truly deserve the appreciation.


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## jononotbono

I never grow tired of this piece...


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## gussunkri

I know this is supposed to be about Horner, but this thread made me discover Gabriel Yared's Troy soundtrack. I love it!!


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## jeremyr

Yared's Troy was thrown out because test audiences thought it sounded too old fashioned, yet here comes Horner with his references to Britten, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, and Vaughan Williams. 

I think it's one of the reasons Horner is my favourite film composer.

Speaking of Horner's borrowings, does anything think it is possible Braveheart was temp-tracked with music from Kaoru Wada's score to the 3x3 Eyes anime from 1991? If it wasn't, then it's a startling coincidence:


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## mikeh-375

jeremyr said:


> Yared's Troy was thrown out because test audiences thought it sounded too old fashioned, yet here comes Horner with his references to Britten, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, and Vaughan Williams.
> 
> I think it's one of the reasons Horner is my favourite film composer.
> 
> Speaking of Horner's borrowings, does anything think it is possible Braveheart was temp-tracked with music from Kaoru Wada's score to the 3x3 Eyes anime from 1991? If it wasn't, then it's a startling coincidence:



Britten's 'Sanctus' from his War Requiem was "referred" to just a little too much, hence the Britten Estate getting on to it. My jaw hit the floor when I first saw that scene (Helen's arrival at Troy), as the War Requiem is undoubtedly one of the greatest art works of the 20thC and a firm favourite of mine. As it turned out, I knew a musicologist involved in the case. I'd say that rip-off was probably the most blatant I've ever heard and was honestly, none too impressed.


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## I like music

I


mikeh-375 said:


> Britten's 'Sanctus' from his War Requiem was "referred" to just a little too much, hence the Britten Estate getting on to it. My jaw hit the floor when I first saw that scene (Helen's arrival at Troy), as the War Requiem is undoubtedly one of the greatest art works of the 20thC and a firm favourite of mine. As it turned out, I knew a musicologist involved in the case. I'd say that rip-off was probably the most blatant I've ever heard and was honestly, none too impressed.


I can't remember the score so can't comment on how blatant the rip off was (will check tonight) but surely it can't be worse than the Prokofiev that I referenced above? Surely!


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## mikeh-375

I like music said:


> I
> I can't remember the score so can't comment on how blatant the rip off was (will check tonight) but surely it can't be worse than the Prokofiev that I referenced above? Surely!


.....it was almost note for note blatant, scoring too, shockingly blatant in fact. I don't know the Prokofiev "inspired" cue, can you point me to it?


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## wayne_rowley

One of my all-time favourite film score composers. He was brilliant, able to capture such raw emotion in his music. Some of my favourite scores/cues of his are:

- Genesis Countdown (Star Trek 2)
- Creating Governing Dynamics (A Beautiful Mind)
- Theme from Cocoon
- The Ludlows (Legends of the Fall)
- Theme from Battle Beyond the Stars
- Willows theme (Elora Danan)

My only criticism is that he plagiarised himself *massively*! Still - a great composer.

Wayne


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## jeremyr

mikeh-375 said:


> .....it was almost note for note blatant, scoring too, shockingly blatant in fact. I don't know the Prokofiev "inspired" cue, can you point me to it?


When it comes to Prokofiev Horner has made many, many references. For example, the October Revolution Cantata appears in Willow (Bavmorda's theme), and the main theme to Red Heat. Ivan the Terrible is the source of a main theme in Glory. The Scythian Suite and Alexander Nevsky appears in Battle Beyond the Stars. Romeo and Juliet was used in Star Trek III and The Land Before Time. I've counted no less than 20 classical music references in Willow alone. It's one of my favourite scores.


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## ryans

jeremyr said:


> I've counted no less than 20 classical music references in Willow alone. It's one of my favourite scores.


Yeah... in terms of classical rip-offs Willow probably wins. If I had to pick one... It is my favourite Horner score.






I like the recording too. LSO brass just sounds angry and it's great.


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## I like music

mikeh-375 said:


> .....it was almost note for note blatant, scoring too, shockingly blatant in fact. I don't know the Prokofiev "inspired" cue, can you point me to it?


I'll check it out!

Here's the Prokofiev:



I'll try to find the exact portion from Horner, but you'll probably not need that reference to recognise it. So blatant I had to laugh (I heard the Prokofiev many years after I heard the Horner lol)


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## I like music

wayne_rowley said:


> - Theme from Cocoon


I had about 3 different pieces of film music to listen to when I was all of 13 years old. Cocoon was one of them.

I still think it is one of the most beautiful movie themes in existence.


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## Consona

lux said:


> To be completely honest I personally never found something by Horner which sounded distracting or frustrating to me.


I remember watching Aliens and out of the blue comes Wrath of Khan "danger motif", it took me completely out of the movie, thinking what the hell am I listening to right now? It was disctracting and frustrating.  Not knowing TWoK, it would feel like a part of the movie, but, alas...


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## ed buller

There are some great moments. But to be honest he stole too much for me. From other people and himself. It keeps him out of the top tier as far as I'm concerned. There is too much repetition and corny devices over used, to mention him in the same breath as Williams or Goldsmith. His death was tragic. 

Best

ed


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## Michael Antrum

Consona said:


> I remember watching Aliens and out of the blue comes Wrath of Khan "danger motif", it took me completely out of the movie, thinking what the hell am I listening to right now? It was disctracting and frustrating.  Not knowing TWoK, it would feel like a part of the movie, but, alas...


Didn't he have only 2 weeks to do Aliens in ? I mean FFS, two weeks ! (and the whole thing was recorded in four days !)


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## Consona

Michael Antrum said:


> Didn't he have only 2 weeks to do Aliens in ? I mean FFS, two weeks ! (and the whole thing was recorded in four days !)


Still took me out of the picture.


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## chrissiddall

Remember also, that what you're hearing in the movie, is almost completely different from the music as written/recorded and certainly as intended, since it has been sliced and diced and sprinkled throughout the movie, often in places it wasn't written for. Only 2 cues were used reasonably untouched and in the location they were intended, out of around twenty.


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