# Synchron Prime Edition Sample Talk Thread



## Markrs (May 3, 2022)

So the 70gb library is Synchron Prime Edition. The intro price of €445 puts it in competition with EastWest Hollywood Orchestra Opus and SA BBC SO. Be interesting to hear what you all think.

*Crossgrade options and pricing:*











SYNCHRON PRIME EDITION - Vienna Symphonic Library


The Synchron Prime Edition gathers the essential instruments and articulations of our highly successful Synchron Series into one affordable and resource-saving collection that is easy to use, versatile and fun to play.




www.vsl.co.at






*YouTube videos on Schnron Prime Edition*









*Comparators in the same Orchestra Starter market:*

VSL - Synchron Prime editon
Spitfire - BBC SO Core and Pro
Orchestral Tools - Berlin Orchestra
Audio Imperia - Nucleus
East West - Hollywood Orchestra Opus


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## Casiquire (May 3, 2022)

Well, it includes a Close mic so at least in that respect it's better off than BBC Core, and it's VSL so i imagine it will be far more consistent (shorts timings, etc). However I'm not sure if it has the same weird magic of BBCSO that instantly convinces me I'm hearing everyone playing live in the same room. I'm not saying it sounds bad by any means, I'm saying BBCSO is unique. Maybe my mind will change as we hear lots of demos and walkthroughs from it!


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## widescreen (May 3, 2022)

Just a quick compare to:

*Nucleus*
Only 2 mic mixes, but no separate mic positions to combine like in SPE

*BBCSO Core*
Only 1 mic mix

*Albion One*
No solo instruments, SPE has quite many solo woodwinds, brass and a harp

*The Orchestra Complete 2*
Different approach, but more instruments (Organ, Grand Piano, Choir, Cembalo), no Celesta, no Xylophone, no solo brass
*
Berlin Orchestra Inspire 1*
Only one mic mix, more instruments (Marimba, Grand Piano), but less solo instruments (only Trumpet, Horn, Flute, Clarinet)

to be continued...


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## Marcus Millfield (May 3, 2022)

I think this is a great entry for someone interested in the VSL sound but not wanting to shell out the big bucks for the complete Synchron series from the get go. All basic instrumentation and articulations are there. It's nice they added Close mics for the solo instruments and the room and surround-to-stereo mixes to get you going. I really liked the latter myself. And off course, there are upgrade paths to the full Synchron libs.

Basically, you get a complete package of all VSL's new and best stuff for a decent price which can be a great starting point for anyone.


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## Markrs (May 3, 2022)

I have HOOPUS and BBC SO Pro, but I have always wanted to give VSL a go. Suddenly, wish I had considered getting vouchers! Though I also have to remember all the libraries I haven't used and that I am on a buying diet 🤣


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## dts_marin (May 3, 2022)

does it work like steaks? Prime cut? if so are the BBO packages Choice or Select cuts?


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## Marcus Millfield (May 3, 2022)

dts_marin said:


> does it work like steaks? Prime cut? if so are the BBO packages Choice or Select cuts?


I'd say Synchron/VI are prime, BBO and the smart series are Choice and free instruments are select cuts. BBO and Synchron Prime have different goals and different uses.


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## gamma-ut (May 3, 2022)

I am tempted by this on the assumption I can fill in articulations reasonably well using VI+MIR from what I have already. Going full Synchron was a bit too rich for my blood but this seems a reasonable compromise.

No crossgrade advantage though - the one big Synchron library I've got is Elite, which doesn't have any instruments in Prime.


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## Zanshin (May 3, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> I'd say Synchron/VI are prime, BBO and the smart series are Choice and free instruments are select cuts. BBO and Synchron Prime have different goals and different uses.


BBO tutti libraries are like running with the bulls!



gamma-ut said:


> I am tempted by this on the assumption I can fill in articulations reasonably well using VI+MIR from what I have already. Going full Synchron was a bit too rich for my blood but this seems a reasonable compromise.
> 
> No crossgrade advantage though - the one big Synchron library I've got is Elite, which doesn't have any instruments in Prime.


I think you are right, and although Elite is not a crossgrade, it is a fairly ideal pairing.


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## Aitcpiano (May 3, 2022)

Just wondering if it would be more cost effective buying one or two of the main synchron libraries on discount then having the 95 price for this prime library or buying the prime library at full price (discounted) and then later cross grading to one or two of the main libraries if I wanted too.


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## widescreen (May 3, 2022)

Markrs said:


> I have HOOPUS and BBC SO Pro, but I have always wanted to give VSL a go. Suddenly, wish I had considered getting vouchers! Though I also have to remember all the libraries I haven't used and that I am on a buying diet 🤣


Owning none of the mentioned but nearly complete Synchron Series I probably would have chosen this one as my starter library if I had the opportunity back then.

I had 800€ worth on vouchers but they vanished already (guess why)...


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## SlHarder (May 3, 2022)

I will say VSL upgrade prices that take note of already owned VSL products seem very fair.

I wanted to get a sense of overlap with other Synchron products. I own Standard versions of SSPro Strings, Brass and Woodwinds. My logged in price for Prime is 95eur. So looks like quite a bit of shared content, which is what their intro led me to expect.


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## widescreen (May 3, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> Just wondering if it would be more cost effective buying one or two of the main synchron libraries on discount then having the 95 price for this prime library or buying the prime library at full price (discounted) and then later cross grading to one or two of the main libraries if I wanted too.


Play around with different combinations in the basket, then you could guess which one would be more effective.


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## Evans (May 3, 2022)

Pretty tempting. About $100 for me to pick up some misc patches (some trimmed down?) for things like SS1, Harp, and Woodwinds. I think I have everything else through various means, such as the VSL BBO perc stuff that appears here.


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## widescreen (May 3, 2022)

SlHarder said:


> I will say VSL upgrade prices that take note of already owned VSL products seem very fair.
> 
> I wanted to get a sense of overlap with other Synchron products. I own Standard versions of SSPro Strings, Brass and Woodwinds. My logged in price for Prime is 95eur. So looks like quite a bit of shared content, which is what their intro led me to expect.


Always good to look at the table:


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## Markrs (May 3, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> Just wondering if it would be more cost effective buying one or two of the main synchron libraries on discount then having the 95 price for this prime library or buying the prime library at full price (discounted) and then later cross grading to one or two of the main libraries if I wanted too.





widescreen said:


> Play around with different combinations in the basket, then you could guess which one would be more effective.


If anyone figures out the best price of a crossgrade library to get the maximum discount, let me know, and I will add it in the original post, so others can use that info.


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## Evans (May 3, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> However I'm not sure if it has the same weird magic of BBCSO that instantly convinces me I'm hearing everyone playing live in the same room.


Yes, I keep going back to listen to BBCSO demos. I grabbed it a while back, but given that wholly orchestral pieces are purely a hobby for me I admittedly haven't done much with it. Some cello patches and woodwinds are the only things that I think have made it through a "complete" project.

... but _dang_ BBCSO instruments really gel together. Would be an interesting time for another BBCSO sale. I wonder what people would say about Spitfire then!


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## Markrs (May 3, 2022)

widescreen said:


> Always good to look at the table:


Might wait for a sale on some of these later in the year and then get the crossgrade price if it is still available.


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## holywilly (May 3, 2022)

I think Synchron Prime is a better deal if people are eyeing on OT’s Berlin Orchestra, the instrumentation is quite similar, like individual winds and brass.


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## dts_marin (May 3, 2022)

VSL strings just don't do it for me. They hit Noteperformer levels of uncanny especially the shorts.

The brass are the least offending section. Woodwinds get organ-like in some places especially when combined with those ungodly strings. Those runs in the demos oof.

If this was priced at 295€ it would be OK but not for 600€.

And for those reasons I'm out


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## RSK (May 3, 2022)

I was about to write "Cue BBC fans in 5...4....3..." but I was too slow.


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## Casiquire (May 3, 2022)

RSK said:


> I was about to write "Cue BBC fans in 5...4....3..." but I was too slow.


I'm not seeing any famboyism in this thread so far, could be worse!


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## widescreen (May 3, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> I'm not seeing any famboyism in this thread so far, could be worse!


Says the one who said in the first post:

"weird magic of BBCSO"
"I'm saying BBCSO is unique"

Don't get me wrong, I'm just pointing somewhere.


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## Casiquire (May 3, 2022)

widescreen said:


> Says the one who said in the first post:
> 
> "weird magic of BBCSO"
> "I'm saying BBCSO is unique"
> ...


That's not famboyism. It's listening to demos. I don't even own BBCSO. This is literally the first time I've ever been accused of Spitfire famboyism. I'm getting talked down to in another thread for criticizing them.

If I'm your example of Spitfire famboyism, you've gone wrong somewhere

Plus, the cherry picking. I even mentioned how inconsistent BBCSO is in the same comment


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## Markrs (May 3, 2022)

We now have an option from all the major Sample companies for starter orchestras.

VSL - Synchron Prime editon
Spitfire - BBC SO Core and Pro
Orchestral Tools - Berlin Orchestra
Audio Imperia - Nucleus
East West - Hollywood Orchestra Opus
I'm sure at some point, we will also have Cinematic Studio Series as well, though of course that will cost quite a bit more even with loyalty discounts. Same for the Aaron Ventures Infinite Series. Though both of them feel more of a middle tier pricing, than starter.


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## Evans (May 3, 2022)

Markrs said:


> We now have an option from all the major Sample companies for starter orchestras.
> 
> VSL - Synchron Prime editon
> Spitfire - BBC SO Core and Pro
> ...


This comparative conversation is *major *benefit, to me, of a Sample Talk thread. Think of how many people aren't super plugged in on new releases or deals or existing packages and would quickly buy something but feel remorse when they learn more.

I disappeared from "this scene" for about 5-7 years at one point (when GigaStudio was closing up) and was overwhelmed with all the new options when I came back (especially, given that one of the main forums I used to go to no longer existed).

EDIT: And I'm not specifically saying people would feel remorse with any of these options. I've got no idea what people's needs and skills are, including my own.


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## widescreen (May 3, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> That's not famboyism. It's listening to demos. I don't even own BBCSO. This is literally the first time I've ever been accused of Spitfire famboyism. I'm getting talked down to in another thread for criticizing them.


If I was trapped like you I would say the same. Don't justify yourself, you're guilty as this thread is already occupied by VSL fanboys (and -girls?) so every mention of OTHER 
developers brings the alarms up.

Just kidding... 

Now that you mention it, when is the next BBCSO Core sale...


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## Casiquire (May 3, 2022)

widescreen said:


> If I was trapped like you I would say the same. Don't justify yourself, you're guilty as this thread is already occupied by VSL fanboys (and -girls?) so every mention of OTHER
> developers brings the alarms up.
> 
> Just kidding...
> ...


I considered grabbing BBC because of that weird "gel" as someone else described it, but decided against it. I'm largely in the OT ecosystem at this point, but i was pretty deep into the VSL ecosystem before Synchron.

As far as comparisons to OT go though, Prime sounds better to my ears than Berlin Orchestra, which I've played with here and there. The mic mixes they chose sound a bit thin and flat to me.


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## sinkd (May 3, 2022)

Markrs said:


> If anyone figures out the best price of a crossgrade library to get the maximum discount, let me know, and I will add it in the original post, so others can use that info.


Looks like Synchron Strings Pro or Perc I plus Harps [EDIT: Harps does not qualify. See Markrs response below] would get you the max discounted crossgrade. Hoping that is what you mean.


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## Markrs (May 3, 2022)

sinkd said:


> Looks like Synchron Strings Pro or Perc I plus Harps would get you the max discounted crossgrade. Hoping that is what you mean.


Sadly, Harp doesn't qualify, so it would be Strings Pro and Perc, as the cheapest entry to the crossgrade price.


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## sinkd (May 3, 2022)

Markrs said:


> Sadly, Harp doesn't qualify, so it would be Strings Pro and Perc, as the cheapest entry to the crossgrade price.


Ah. Yes, I was reading from the first list and not the *Qualifying Collections." TGTBT.


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## Markrs (May 3, 2022)

I wonder if we will get a video review from Guy sometime this week?


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## Aitcpiano (May 3, 2022)

I think the cheapest way of doing it, if you wanted some or planned to get some of the synchron libraries is to buy Synchron percussion 1 and synchron strings pro and the Prime edition all in one order. That way you can get the upgrade pricing for the main libraries including the discounted prime edition library for 95 euro. I think it might even be cheaper to do that than buy synchron strings pro and synchron percussion 1 separately.


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## tritonely (May 3, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> I think the cheapest way of doing it, if you wanted some or planned to get some of the synchron libraries is to buy Synchron percussion 1 and synchron strings pro and the Prime edition all in one order. That way you can get the upgrade pricing for the main libraries including the discounted prime edition library for 95 euro. I think it might even be cheaper to do that than buy synchron strings pro and synchron percussion 1 separately.


Nice strategy, not bad to get the standard editions of Strings Pro and Perc 1 together for only 129 euro extra.

edit: this price is with EDU discount


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## wlinart (May 3, 2022)

Markrs said:


> If anyone figures out the best price of a crossgrade library to get the maximum discount, let me know, and I will add it in the original post, so others can use that info.


It's cheaper to first buy the libraries and than buy prime (standard on the left, full on the right)


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## widescreen (May 3, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> I considered grabbing BBC because of that weird "gel" as someone else described it, but decided against it. I'm largely in the OT ecosystem at this point, but i was pretty deep into the VSL ecosystem before Synchron.
> 
> As far as comparisons to OT go though, Prime sounds better to my ears than Berlin Orchestra, which I've played with here and there. The mic mixes they chose sound a bit thin and flat to me.


I strictly avoided OT because of SINE. I know, they have Kontakt versions, but their focus is SINE. My experience with it was... 

BBCSO Core is always very tempting whenever it is on sale as Discover lowers the price in addition. The sound is special, without a doubt. Still the player is not ideal. Best-in-class is absolutely Synchron Player.

But at least as I pulled the trigger on nearly full Synchron Package because of the special discounts my combination of already owned VSL products generated, the need for BBC got lower as I'm no pro and now have a real pro full orchestra by VSL. And much from 8Dio (Century Series etc). So no real need for more.

If I knew of Synchron Prime before, I would probably have saved much money and still could have enough for my needs. But I don't complain, the whole Synchron Series is so great!


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## widescreen (May 3, 2022)

tritonely said:


> Nice strategy, not bad to get the standard editions of Strings Pro and Perc 1 together for only 129 euro extra.


Does that still work? I thought they fixed it. I cannot reconstruct it as discounts only work when logged in and I already have all Synchron libraries so the discount for Synchron Prime is maximum, but SY Strings Pro or Perc I are counted as completely new 2nd purchases.

I think that probably is not intended, but I had the same when I added BBO Complete+SY Strings Bundle+Brass+WW+Perc Bundle (all standard). The Synchrons got the full BBO discount and BBO Bundle got the full Synchron discount. They added up against each other. Then I ended up with additional 37€ for WW full upgrade+100€ for Brass full upgrade (which of course I took!). Extremely low.

But perhaps this is the 8Dio way VSL copies now to get the bargain hunters ("Where are the basket glitches?!" ) to buy even more than they wanted to. Worked good for them (I am THE witness), why not for VSL?


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## tritonely (May 3, 2022)

widescreen said:


> Does that still work? I thought they fixed it. I cannot reconstruct it as discounts only work when logged in and I already have all Synchron libraries so the discount for Synchron Prime is maximum, but SY Strings Pro or Perc I are counted as completely new 2nd purchases.


Sorry I totally forgot the automatically applied EDU discount. With EDU discount the strategy above results in 574 euro, 129 euro more than intro price Prime. I was a little bit too enthousiastic. Sweet deal for students and teachers!


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## Markrs (May 3, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> I think the cheapest way of doing it, if you wanted some or planned to get some of the synchron libraries is to buy Synchron percussion 1 and synchron strings pro and the Prime edition all in one order. That way you can get the upgrade pricing for the main libraries including the discounted prime edition library for 95 euro. I think it might even be cheaper to do that than buy synchron strings pro and synchron percussion 1 separately.


When I do that, it comes to €835 irrespective of the order they go in.


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## Zanshin (May 3, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> I considered grabbing BBC because of that weird "gel" as someone else described it, but decided against it. I'm largely in the OT ecosystem at this point, but i was pretty deep into the VSL ecosystem before Synchron.
> 
> As far as comparisons to OT go though, Prime sounds better to my ears than Berlin Orchestra, which I've played with here and there. The mic mixes they chose sound a bit thin and flat to me.


I'm deep in too many ecosystems lol.

Of the big boys I do feel the sonic character of Berlin mains and Synchron mains compliment each other very well. Mixing and matching the different families, ie Synchron Brass with Berlin Strings, is pretty easy and convincing (at least to my barbarian ears). IMO - Teldex might be sweeter for strings, and Synchron better for Brass and Percussion, but I am splitting hairs and they all sound great to me (as my wallets weeps).


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## Aitcpiano (May 3, 2022)

Markrs said:


> When I do that, it comes to €835 irrespective of the order they go in.


i'm getting €598.00, although I do get the student discount pricing. But it does seem to be further discounting the Strings pro and percussion when I add the prime edition and when I have both the strings pro and percussion 1 I get the 95 Euro prime price.


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## widescreen (May 3, 2022)

tritonely said:


> Sorry I totally forgot the automatically applied EDU discount. With EDU discount the strategy above results in 574 euro, 129 euro more than intro price Prime. I was a little bit too enthousiastic. Sweet deal for students and teachers!





Markrs said:


> When I do that, it comes to €835 irrespective of the order they go in.



I think @tritonely forgot not only his EDU status but also some products he owns already... 

My EDU status ran out recently and I did not extend it as it will nearly run out until the one and only Back-To-School EDU sale in late August/September with 40% discount appears. So I will renew EDU in summertime.

I'll surely wait for that before I buy any other VSL library (hopefully).


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## cedricm (May 3, 2022)

Markrs said:


> So the 70gb library is Synchron Prime Edition. The intro price of €445 puts it in competition with EastWest Hollywood Orchestra Opus and SA BBC SO. Be interesting to hear what you all think.
> 
> *Crossgrade options and pricing:*
> 
> ...



It's absolutely not comparable with EW Hopus, a 500+ GB library if memory serves. IMHO Prime is fully over-priced, but for crossgrade candidates.


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## Markrs (May 3, 2022)

cedricm said:


> It's absolutely not comparable with EW Hopus, a 500+ GB library if memory serves. IMHO Prime is fully over-priced, but for crossgrade candidates.


I was thinking more about price range, that tier of library. I love HO Opus and you get so much for the money, including all the mic options. But for some this might be a consideration.


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## Markrs (May 3, 2022)

sinkd said:


> Ah. Yes, I was reading from the first list and not the *Qualifying Collections." TGTBT.


Looks like the Harp does give you crossgrade discount, reduces the price to €275 or €95 with any other of the qualifying libraries


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## Markrs (May 3, 2022)

For those that have some of the qualifying libraries. If you had to chose between Strings Pro and Perc 1 which one would people choose?


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## Aitcpiano (May 3, 2022)

€455 is my price for Synchron harp, synchron perc 1 (already have the BBO perc) and the synchron Prime edition. That's pretty tempting.


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## tritonely (May 3, 2022)

widescreen said:


> I think @tritonely forgot not only his EDU status but also some products he owns already...


I only got SY Special Edition 2 which would discount 32 euro off SY Perc 1, but don't know if that's still the case with all the other discounts when doing this strategy.


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## Pixelpoet1985 (May 3, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> I'm deep in too many ecosystems lol.
> 
> Of the big boys I do feel the sonic character of Berlin mains and Synchron mains compliment each other very well. Mixing and matching the different families, ie Synchron Brass with Berlin Strings, is pretty easy and convincing (at least to my barbarian ears). IMO - Teldex might be sweeter for strings, and Synchron better for Brass and Percussion, but I am splitting hairs and they all sound great to me (as my wallets weeps).


A really good match is Century Brass and Century Strings, too, in my opinion. If you need more emotion layer them with Synchron. The Century Series is in general really well done.


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## arcy (May 3, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> Well, it includes a Close mic so at least in that respect it's better off than BBC Core, and it's VSL so i imagine it will be far more consistent (shorts timings, etc). However I'm not sure if it has the same weird magic of BBCSO that instantly convinces me I'm hearing everyone playing live in the same room. I'm not saying it sounds bad by any means, I'm saying BBCSO is unique. Maybe my mind will change as we hear lots of demos and walkthroughs from it!


I have both Synchron and BBC. BBC lack in ff dynamics with brass. VSL in general is more balanced and coherent.
Anyway, the big problem of VSL, for me, are the demos...it sounds like general midi...but when you play it the sound and the dynamics are superb!

I hope in a future upgrade to BBC to add a dynamic layer to the brass section.

About Synchron Prime is a good starting point for those who jump on board on VSL world or for those who would complement their existing Synchron libraries without spending a lot (for example adding woodwinds or basic percussion to an existing Synchron Strings library).


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## Pixelpoet1985 (May 3, 2022)

arcy said:


> Anyway, the big problem of VSL, for me, are the demos...it sounds like general midi...but when you play it the sound and the dynamics are superb!


^ This (with exceptions though)


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## ptram (May 3, 2022)

Since I qualify for the lower crossgrade price, I can purchase it with no sense of guilt. But since I already have so many libraries, and have yet to finish setting them, I must justify this addition to my messy arsenal.

The first consideration is that this library seems to be very light, despite the considerable sound quality. I usually start composing with NotePerformer, and only later start converting to a complete sound library. Maybe this could change with Prime, where I would have, while composing, the same sounds as in the finished product.

Composing with NotePerformer means that you have an intelligent interpreter reading the score for you. With Prime, you would have to start thinking to the interpretation as soon as you go on composing. One hassle more while composing? Or just a natural parallel process?

Contrary to the SynSE expression maps for Dorico, that had CC2 as the dynamic controller, this one has CC1. So, adapting the score created on Prime for the full Synchron orchestra is possible, and seems even immediate. Any edit I do while the Prime playback template is selected is preserved when switching to my own Synchron template.

So, for me it is just a matter of wanting to compose with NotePerformer or a light version of a full library. I wonder which is the right strategy.

Paolo


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## RSK (May 3, 2022)

Markrs said:


> I wonder if we will get a video review from Guy sometime this week?


Without a doubt


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## PedroPH (May 3, 2022)

widescreen said:


> Owning none of the mentioned but nearly complete Synchron Series I probably would have chosen this one as my starter library if I had the opportunity back then.
> 
> I had 800€ worth on vouchers but they vanished already (guess why)...


What are these vouchers?


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## PedroPH (May 3, 2022)

Markrs said:


> I have HOOPUS and BBC SO Pro, but I have always wanted to give VSL a go. Suddenly, wish I had considered getting vouchers! Though I also have to remember all the libraries I haven't used and that I am on a buying diet 🤣


Do you use both? How do you decide which? Or do you mix them?


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## gamma-ut (May 3, 2022)

PedroPH said:


> What are these vouchers?


About every six months, VSL does buy-three-get-one-free voucher sales, so people pick them up then to use in sales to provide an additional discount. It works pretty well if you think you're going to buy some VSL products in the future.


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## Ben (May 3, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> About every six months


*12
And it's in December.


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## RogiervG (May 3, 2022)

The Prime Edition demos sound a bit flat imho. Especially woods are not as nice as the real synchron woodwinds (which are even lesser than the synchron-ized /VI woodsies).
In other words, just going by the demos, it leaves me a "meh" feeling.
I also feel it's kind of competing with the Special Edition vol1/2.. 

Pricepoint is good however...(competitive with other players lightweight/starter libs)


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## gamma-ut (May 3, 2022)

Ben said:


> *12
> And it's in December.


I don't know why, I thought I'd seen two in a year. But 12 it is.


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## arcy (May 3, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> The Prime Edition demos sound a bit flat imho. Especially woods are not as nice as the real synchron woodwinds (which are even lesser than the synchron-ized /VI woodsies).
> In other words, just going by the demos, it leaves me a "meh" feeling.
> I also feel it's kind of competing with the Special Edition vol1/2..
> 
> Pricepoint is good however...(competitive with other players lightweight/starter libs)


The problem with VSL demos...


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## DaddyO (May 3, 2022)

ptram said:


> ...
> 
> The first consideration is that this library seems to be very light, despite the considerable sound quality. I usually start composing with NotePerformer, and only later start converting to a complete sound library. Maybe this could change with Prime, where I would have, while composing, the same sounds as in the finished product.
> 
> ...


I can't decide if this is a useful no brainer (duh! at 95 euros) or just buying because it's only 95 euros.

Last Black Friday I bought Smart Orchestra "for sketching" because the weekend sale price was something like 65 euros. I've never used it. This would be a far superior sketching tool for just 30 euros more, but I ask myself if I would be throwing good money after bad, chasing something that in the end I would use rarely if at all.

95 euros would pay for an upgrade to VE Pro 8 when it comes out.

Like you, I got to the point with Dorico that it was easier just to do initial composition using Noteperformer and then export to Studio One, using premium VSL libraries for further development and production. However, your points about the advantages of exporting from Prime-based Dorico are worth considering.

Since I already own Syz Special Editions vols 1-4 PLUS, that's another factor to weigh. Should I buy this and delete the Special Editions? Dunno yet.

This is the VSL version of a Rubik's cube to analyze and solve. And I was never any good at Rubik's cube.


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## arcy (May 3, 2022)

DaddyO said:


> Since I already own Syz Special Editions vols 1-4 PLUS, that's another factor to weigh. Should I buy this and delete the Special Editions? Dunno yet.


Delete SE no, but Prime is a fresh air, especially for modern recording techniques and legato patches.


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## RogiervG (May 3, 2022)

arcy said:


> Delete SE no, but Prime is a fresh air, especially for modern recording techniques and legato patches.


not sure the legato's are better per se... (also i not sure on the full synchron series, if it's better or just different)


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## Rudianos (May 3, 2022)

This is perfect for me. I did avail myself of the Synchron Strings Bundle Standard + Elite Pro Upgrade (all about them Ribbons) for an alarmingly good Ilok deal. Trying to get used to that eco system. Anyways, So I can get this for much less. I generally prefer to play legato and normal RR shorts - no so much on the prerecorded arcs. Nice that they offer close mics - which can really allow you to put it anywhere you want. So purchased, download pending.

VSL is awesome ... great download agent, speeds, beauty ... No nonsense upgrade paths - smooth template transitions. Great customer service.

So far my impressions of the Strings - they are very well programmed - clean ... fun to play on keyboard. More conservative out of the box expression then my Berlin and others. If it is a matter of programming - maybe some expansions to crazy different legatos might be cool.

Looking forward to downloading!


----------



## DaddyO (May 3, 2022)

Prime vs Noteperformer in Dorico:

Advantages:
Sonically better
Same libraries as for later use in Studio One
>> sonically closer to how it will sound
Some CC work directly reproducible for the later work in Studio One

Disadvantages:
Expression Maps, though simpler, still involved
Noteperformer is so bloomin' EASY
.. you can focus entirely on composition and forget about VI's.
No interpretive algorithms as in Noteperformer
.. often helpful, occasionally counterproductive


----------



## DaddyO (May 3, 2022)

arcy said:


> Prime is a fresh air


I am so sorry, but I cannot help it. Your "fresh air" comment made me think of this blast from the past, which I imagine will reach beyond the lifetime or geography of most here and include some social mores that will not translate well to current ways of thinking.



Thanks for your comments re: SE deletion, it is more a matter of economy of space. That said, there are a number of instruments in my SE volumes that are not in Prime. In the end, this is a secondary decision than whether or not I would use it much.


----------



## RogiervG (May 3, 2022)

DaddyO said:


> Prime vs Noteperformer in Dorico:
> 
> Advantages:
> >> sonically closer to how it will sound
> ...



that's a contradiction right there...  
the interpretive algorithms are important for "closer to how it will sound" in rendering (balancing/articulations etc)
Pure tone wise (realism of instruments prime sounds better overall, pure in tone).
I would not ditch noteperformer for a "check tool", nothing beats it imho.


----------



## DaddyO (May 3, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> that's a contradiction right there...
> the interpretive algorithms are important for "closer to how it will sound" in rendering (balancing/articulations etc)
> Pure tone wise (realism of instruments prime sounds better overall, pure in tone).
> I would not ditch noteperformer for a "check tool", nothing beats it imho.



I see what you are saying, but for me it is not a contradiction. When I say sonically closer I don't mean in a finished, interpretive sense, I mean the basic virtual instrument sound is the same or very similar to those I would be using later in Studio One.

My Studio One work would include more interpretive considerations. If Noteperformer's interpretive aspects would translate to DAW export, that would be helpful, but they do not.

Still, for Dorico compositional purposes you are right, that there is a disadvantage precisely because VSL instruments would not have this interpretive ability.

These are two separate considerations for my purposes, but I can definitely see how for others these might be intertwined. Thanks for your comment.


----------



## branshen (May 3, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> I am tempted by this on the assumption I can fill in articulations reasonably well using VI+MIR from what I have already. Going full Synchron was a bit too rich for my blood but this seems a reasonable compromise.
> 
> No crossgrade advantage though - the one big Synchron library I've got is Elite, which doesn't have any instruments in Prime.


Maybe we'll get a VSL Prime Elite edition? Similar to spitfire SSO chamber edition.


----------



## lgmcben (May 3, 2022)

No horn legato?


----------



## Ben (May 3, 2022)

lgmcben said:


> No horn legato?


Yes, horns have legato


----------



## lgmcben (May 3, 2022)

Ben said:


> Yes, horns have legato


Nice! But you might wanna fix the description as in my attached screenshot above. As it looks like only trumpets have legato. (or maybe I read that incorrectly?)


----------



## Ben (May 3, 2022)

lgmcben said:


> Nice! But you might wanna fix the description as in my attached screenshot above. As it looks like only trumpets have legato. (or maybe I read that incorrectly?)


The trumpets have two (con vib, no-vib), the others have only one.


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## Gerbil (May 3, 2022)

Although I don't use them myself, I nearly always direct classical students to the VSL starter synchronized packages because they are so reliable and no-nonsense to use. I'm wondering if this new library would be better for them to purchase. They seem around the same price. I know VSL do an EDU discount before the academic year starts.

They mainly use them to mock-up their own contemporary classical scores, so uber-realism or the 'Hollywood' sound is not their final goal.


----------



## rrichard63 (May 3, 2022)

Markrs said:


> Looks like the Harp does give you crossgrade discount, reduces the price to €275 or €95 with any other of the qualifying libraries


I can confirm this. I have Synchron Brass and Synchron Harp (and no other Synchron products) and was given the 95 euro price. Needless to say, I grabbed it before they could change their minds.


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## Evans (May 3, 2022)

Picked this up, but having trouble with Vienna Assistant.

I've contacted Support, but if anyone knows how to get Vienna Assistant out of the Verifying state before it starts a download, I'd love a hint (I've already searched these forums, have fully updated Assistant, restarted my machine, confirmed my my licenses in iLok).

This started occurring yesterday when trying to install VSL DS2, after I've successfully installed other VSL iLok products. Vienna Assistant just spins in the Verifying state before the download (never) kicks off.


----------



## Zanshin (May 3, 2022)

Evans said:


> Picked this up, but having trouble with Vienna Assistant.
> 
> I've contacted Support, but if anyone knows how to get Vienna Assistant out of the Verifying state before it starts a download, I'd love a hint (I've already searched these forums, have fully updated Assistant, restarted my machine, confirmed my my licenses in iLok).
> 
> This started occurring yesterday when trying to install VSL DS2, after I've successfully installed other VSL iLok products. Vienna Assistant just spins in the Verifying state before the download (never) kicks off.


Try changing download and install paths. You can always relocate it after it's installed. I was seeing that same behavior last week, the fix was don't download to the root of a drive (and I saw it listed as a fix yesterday). But maybe your issue is similar?


----------



## Evans (May 3, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> Try changing download and install paths. You can always relocate it after it's installed. I was seeing that same behavior last week, the fix was don't download to the root of a drive (and I saw it listed as a fix yesterday). But maybe your issue is similar?


That was it. Weird for two reasons:

The latest update did say that was resolved; and
My three prior iLok downloads and installs were on root (same location).
Oh, well.


----------



## Zanshin (May 3, 2022)

Evans said:


> That was it. Weird for two reasons:
> 
> The latest update did say that was resolved; and
> My three prior iLok downloads and installs were on root (same location).
> Oh, well.


Woot, well at least you are cooking now


----------



## muziksculp (May 3, 2022)

I'm guessing the content of The Synchron Prime Edition Orchestra is derived from the larger Synchron libraries ? or are these new samples ?


----------



## Gil (May 3, 2022)

Hello,
Like @ptram and @DaddyO I'm using Dorico with NotePerformer for composition: the interpretation is absolutely excellent, however some sounds (strings) are not very good.
As NotePerformer 4 (that will include better sounds) is not yet around the corner, I'm wondering if Prime could be cool for writing with Dorico.

I was expecting:
- A demo from VSL with Dorico Expression Maps for Prime as they made for Synchronized-SE
- A Dorico Expression Map for Synchron Percussion I-III (the only Synchron library without Dorico Expression Map)

So if someone is doing some tests on Dorico with Prime and compare with NotePerformer, please share your results 

Thanks!
Regards,
Gil.


----------



## Gil (May 3, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I'm guessing the content of The Synchron Prime Edition Orchestra is derived from the larger Synchron libraries ? or are these new samples ?


Hello,
From https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Starter_Editions/Synchron_Prime_Edition:


> The Synchron Prime Edition gathers the essential instruments and articulations of our highly successful Synchron Series into one affordable and resource-saving collection that is easy to use, versatile and fun to play.


Regards,
Gil.


----------



## muziksculp (May 3, 2022)

Gil said:


> Hello,
> From https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Starter_Editions/Synchron_Prime_Edition:
> 
> Regards,
> Gil.


OK. Thanks  

My price is $95. not sure I need it, but I think this library would be great for laptop users.


----------



## DaddyO (May 3, 2022)

DaddyO said:


> Prime vs Noteperformer in Dorico:
> ...
> Disadvantages:
> Expression Maps, though simpler, still involved


Just found out that VSL has updated their VSL for Dorico Expression Maps to include Prime. That reduces the impact of the disadvantage.

One still has to deal with Expression Maps, but one doesn't have to create them from scratch.


----------



## DaddyO (May 3, 2022)

Rubik's schmubiks. Ordered from Best Service for $87 after BestCoin. 

I don't normally work on my unreliable laptop, but it's possible before too many months I may have to forgo my desk and desktop, so Prime could become a key library in that case. Besides, if I am happy with how it works in Dorico with the supplied Expression Maps, I might find it supplants Noteperformer for my purposes. If not, it will still be more useful than Smart Orchestra.


----------



## muziksculp (May 3, 2022)

DaddyO said:


> Just found out that VSL has updated their VSL for Dorico Expression Maps to include Prime. That reduces the impact of the disadvantage.
> 
> One still has to deal with Expression Maps, but one doesn't have to create them from scratch.


I use Studio One Pro 5, VSL Synchron Player and Studio One Sound-Variations have two way communication, and automatically reflect changes. Great system if you use S1Pro and Synchron Player.


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## AndyP (May 3, 2022)

I have mixed feelings about this Prime Edition. The percussion in particular has a lot of overlap with BBO Phenix and Quasar, although Prime seems to have less content (but includes a celesta). Isn't that also very redundant? 

There are also fewer mic positions than in BBO. 
I have the entire Synchron Strings, Synchronized-SE 1-4 incl. + Editions, as well as BBO complete.

Well, there are Solo Brass and Woodwinds, but I find them in the SE Editions already good and I will probably rather update to the complete Synchron Brass, Woodwinds if again a good sale is pending and I have the feeling that it is necessary.

My discount is 275€, but that doesn't excite me enough to buy the Prime Edition. But I'm not really the target audience for Prime, which is fine.


----------



## Casiquire (May 3, 2022)

branshen said:


> Maybe we'll get a VSL Prime Elite edition? Similar to spitfire SSO chamber edition.


That's a great idea actually since so many people adore Elite. And a fairly inexpensive upgrade path to download the other ensemble... I'd bet people would pay for that!


----------



## DaddyO (May 3, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I use Studio One Pro 5, VSL Synchron Player and Studio One Sound-Variations have two way communication, and automatically reflect changes. Great system if you use S1Pro and Synchron Player.


Yep. Really sweet. 

It was the introduction of this capability that got me to crossgrade to Studio One last spring.


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## muziksculp (May 3, 2022)

Where the hell are the Synchron Solo Strings ?


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## Evans (May 3, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Where the hell are the Synchron Solo Strings ?


+1 month


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## DaddyO (May 3, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I use Studio One Pro 5, VSL Synchron Player and Studio One Sound-Variations have two way communication, and *automatically reflect changes.*


As you mention, one of the best parts of this capability is that it not only auto-loads Sound Variations (instrument control mapping), but if you change the mapping of a Synchron Player instance in any way while working the current state of the mapping is immediately reflected in the Studio One Sound Variations.


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## CT (May 3, 2022)

arcy said:


> The problem with VSL demos...


I've felt this way about VSL for years. Back when I used Special Edition stuff, I thought it sounded _nothing_ like some of the demos, and having gotten the organ over the weekend, it's the same experience there. 

That's why I still pay attention to what they're doing despite so much of what I hear leaving a poor impression. It feels like, compared to other developers, there is just a larger gap between what many of their demos showcase, and what is _actually possible_ with what's being demonstrated. And to be clear, I'm speaking purely about production/technical stuff, and not impugning anyone's compositional abilities.


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## ptram (May 3, 2022)

Thinking about sample weight, I wonder if using the full Synchron libraries, with just two mixer channels turned on, and with only the limited number of articulations available in Prime, would consume the same amount of memory and computing power.

In other words: are these the same samples, with the same number of dynamic layers and round robins, or are they reduced, as it happened with the Special Edition compared to the full VI edition?

Paolo


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## DaddyO (May 3, 2022)

Can't remember if it was here or on the VSL forum a similar comparison question was asked, and it was said that there were in some cases fewer velocity layers. Just tried to find what I read this morning but couldn't. That says more about me than it does about Ben or Paul.

(Edited to add: If I remember correctly one criticism that was quickly leveled against the premium Synchron libraries when they were introduced was that the number of velocity layers was often less than the VI series. If I remember correctly the answer from VSL was that this was part of the design, not an oversight or downgrade.)


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## ptram (May 3, 2022)

DaddyO said:


> (Edited to add: If I remember correctly one criticism that was quickly leveled against the premium Synchron libraries when they were introduced was that the number of velocity layers was often less than the VI series. If I remember correctly the answer from VSL was that this was part of the design, not an oversight or downgrade.)


Not a problem for me, if an inexpensive library has less than a premium one. I’m just trying to understand if the inexpensive library is also lighter, when remaining inside the same limits while using them.

This would translate into an invitation to a slight change of attitude when composing with major libraries: using less may reduce the weight on the system.

Paolo


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## mgpqa1 (May 3, 2022)

So for someone who's eyeing only the first two volumes of the Synchron-ized Special Editions (and _maybe_ their "plus" expansions during a sale in the future), should they abandon that plan and go for this new Prime edition instead?


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## Aitcpiano (May 3, 2022)

Was just about to go ahead with it to find out that they have changed it so the synchron harp does not no longer reduce it to 95 Euro. It's too much now so decided to leave buying this one.


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## DaddyO (May 3, 2022)

ptram said:


> ...
> 
> This would translate into an invitation to a slight change of attitude when composing with major libraries: using less may reduce the weight on the system.
> 
> Paolo


Definitely. I hope it does.

If I end up without a desk or desktop computer later this year or next I had planned on using my Special Edition volumes on a laptop. It's possible this Prime would be less taxing, making it possible to keep the specs of that laptop more affordable, especially when working with orchestra where the number of concurrently active tracks and voices used can grow quite large.


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## DaddyO (May 3, 2022)

mgpqa1 said:


> So for someone who's eyeing only the first two volumes of the Synchron-ized Special Editions (and _maybe_ their "plus" expansions during a sale in the future), should they abandon that plan and go for this new Prime edition instead?


Myself, as an owner of vols 1-4 PLUS, I think it's surely worth considering. 

The Special Edition volumes will have more available instruments. With them you'll get not just section-sized strings but also chamber and solo strings. I didn't notice if Prime has a piano, Special Edition vol 1 does. In volume four you get a choir. These are just examples off the top of my head. 

I would look at the product pages and map out just what extra instruments you can get that don't come with Prime. You'd have to weigh how much you would value those instruments.

In addition, the PLUS add-ons do I think give you more in the way of articulations than Prime, although I haven't done a formal comparison.

But with Prime you get not only sounds from the flagship Synchron libraries, you get a direct upgrade path to them. With the Special Edition your upgrade path is to the Synchron-ized libraries.

If you are only working on a laptop, I think the question ptram raised a few posts ago have a real bearing on your decision. With more limited specs, the load on your system becomes very significant.

Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions. I'm not an expert, but I'd share with you what I think. I don't know if you are just starting out or experienced and just wanting to branch into VSL. If just starting out, I was right in your shoes back in the days of Special Editions well before any Synchron Products were released.


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## holywilly (May 3, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Where the hell are the Synchron Solo Strings ?


Let’s start a “VSL Synchron libraries speculating threat”..


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## robgb (May 3, 2022)

What sells this for me is that this "core" version of their libraries includes a CLOSE mic, not just a single mix or decca mic. Which is the way it should be done. And after using a couple of their free libraries (Celestial strings sounds fantastic), I know that the player is excellent. I'm very tempted.


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## Aitcpiano (May 3, 2022)

robgb said:


> What sells this for me is that this "core" version of their libraries includes a CLOSE mic, not just a single mix or decca mic. Which is the way it should be done. And after using a couple of their free libraries (Celestial strings sounds fantastic), I know that the player is excellent. I'm very tempted.


This is also something I really like about it. It makes it much more of a capable library by including a close/mid mic. Sounds like the mix mics are also quite flexible with lots of preset mix mic options. 

I was going to go for it with the synchron harp and synchron perc 1 to get it for 95 euros but unfortunately looks like they changed it on their webpage before I made the order this evening.


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## Evans (May 3, 2022)

holywilly said:


> speculating threat”..


Sounds like muziksculp, for sure.


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## mscp (May 3, 2022)

Interesting. Berlin Orchestra was free for those who own the entire Berlin Series. Why do I have to pay 95 Euros even though I have everything from Synchron except the power drums and pianos (which are not featured in Prime anyway)?


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## Evans (May 3, 2022)

mscp said:


> Interesting. Berlin Orchestra was free for those who own the entire Berlin Series. Why do I have to pay 95 Euros even though I have everything from Synchron except the power drums and pianos (which are not featured in Prime anyway)?


Because it's a different company and it's the value they've placed on this. Who knows, maybe OT is the one that is wrong. Maybe they needed/valued the good PR more. Maybe it's an oversight. Maybe it's Maybelline. You don't have to buy it.


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## mscp (May 3, 2022)

Evans said:


> Because it's a different company and it's the value they've placed on this. Who knows, maybe OT is the one that is wrong. Maybe they needed/valued the good PR more. Maybe it's an oversight. Maybe it's Maybelline. You don't have to buy it.


Right...
VSL always gives discounts to owners of sample libraries that contain redundant samples. Since this one is 100% redundant, I was just curious. Sure, I'll not get it.


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## Evans (May 3, 2022)

mscp said:


> Right...
> VSL always gives discounts to owners of sample libraries that contain redundant samples. Since this one is 100% redundant, I was just curious. Sure, I'll not get it.


Not for "downgrades," though, right? For example, I have Synchron Strings Pro Full and don't see $0 for BBO T through W. 

Yet, owners of those see a lower price for SSP.


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## robgb (May 3, 2022)

mscp said:


> VSL always gives discounts to owners of sample libraries that contain redundant samples. Since this one is 100% redundant, I was just curious. Sure, I'll not get it.


If it's redundant, why do you need it at all?


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## Casiquire (May 3, 2022)

robgb said:


> If it's redundant, why do you need it at all?


I'd love to upgrade some of my libraries from VI to Syzd. It's way too expensive to do that though, especially when I already paid for the samples.


----------



## SomeGuy (May 3, 2022)

Can anyone tell me the RAM useage differences between the same template using the same patches between standard Synchron libs vs Prime? correct me if I’m wrong, but it should be half given that Prime is running 2 mics vs the 4 that come with standard Synchron libraries, correct?

Are the dynamic layers between standard Synchron libs and Prime the same, or is Prime reduced? I’m guessing its the same as VSL mention the ability to write using Prime, and then later load the full versions for more mic/mixing control. If they didnt have the same dynamic layers it’s possible different samples would be triggered which could change the performance of your mockup, but would also like confirmation on this.

Curious for any real world examples as RAM is my biggest issue when composing on a laptop. Anyone willing to load up their Synchron template and replace the same patches with Prime and report back on the RAM usage?

edit: are there any tutti patches for winds? Seeing as how they listed Brass as having the tutti patch (use that patch all the time in the Synchron library) I really hope they have the same for woodwinds in prime and hopefully just forgot to mention it?!


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## gyprock (May 3, 2022)

If you own all the Synchron libraries is there any benefit to paying 95 Euros for a crossgrade to Prime? The standard Synchron libraries have the room and close mics (along with others). If it is a question of resources, it's possible to disable (or delete) slots in the Synchron products and make them look like Prime by saving custom presets. Am I missing something?


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## Marcus Millfield (May 3, 2022)

gyprock said:


> it's possible to disable (or delete) slots in the Synchron products and make them look like Prime by saving custom presets.


Yes, you can disable specific articulations per preset, but you can also configure Synchron player to load preset with all articulations disabled as a default and then only enable the ones you like to use. Only thing you'll see is that the full Synchron libs will use more disk space than the Prime library.

I get the whole "light library for mobile use" thing, but on the other hand with computer tech nowadays, is this really a point anymore? I run my 103 Synchron/VI instance VSL template on a 2017 notebook and as long as I don't try to run my the full Dimension String sections all at once, I'm fine performance wise.

For someone starting out, Prime is great. For those who already own the major Synchron sections, maybe not so much?


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## lgmcben (May 4, 2022)

Bought. A Synchron sound with ssd room for porn is a no brainer


----------



## FinGael (May 4, 2022)

C'mon ladies and gents. Many hours have already passed and no user demos/videos/reviews in YT. Why is it taking so long?


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## Marcus Millfield (May 4, 2022)

FinGael said:


> C'mon ladies and gents. Many hours have already passed and no user demos/videos/reviews in YT. Why is it taking so long?


You could always lead by example and post your own findings?! VSL's generous return policy could help your reluctance to buy it straight away!


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## ptram (May 4, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> I get the whole "light library for mobile use" thing, but on the other hand with computer tech nowadays, is this really a point anymore?


Well, disk space is still an issue (at least in the Mac world). Seventy gigabytes can easily find place in a 500GB internal drive. The full library wouldn't.

Paolo


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## ptram (May 4, 2022)

I'm thinking that the library may be even smaller, if only the RoomMix samples are left. If it works (it works in libraries from other brands), I guess this can be interesting for the owners of crowded drives.

Paolo


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## Ben (May 4, 2022)

ptram said:


> I'm thinking that the library may be even smaller, if only the RoomMix samples are left. If it works (it works in libraries from other brands), I guess this can be interesting for the owners of crowded drives.
> 
> Paolo


You could manually delete one of the two mic positions from drive yes, but you will probably not be happy with the sound, as the close mic is not baked into the RoomMix.


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## Marcus Millfield (May 4, 2022)

ptram said:


> Well, disk space is still an issue (at least in the Mac world). Seventy gigabytes can easily find place in a 500GB internal drive. The full library wouldn't.
> 
> Paolo


Is that really still an issue with all the big drives and fast external disks? I mean, for the price of the Prime library crossgrade price you can get a 1TB Samsung T7 ssd, which is plenty fast to host samples.


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## ptram (May 4, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> Is that really still an issue with all the big drives and fast external disks?


I guess it depends on how 'zen' you want to be. Clean as water in winter, or with dongles attached?

Not really an issue, I know, but just something to keep in mind if you are a maniac (like me)!

Paolo


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## slomo (May 4, 2022)

Since I see some people are asking about the dynamic layers. I was interested in that question too so I've looked up the layer count in Strings Pro and noticed it has 2 layers for the longs. I presume they can't lower those even more so the count in Prime should be the same here...

Here's the link:
Strings Pro Specs

My initial thought is that 2 dynamic layers for strings seem a bit low for a modern string library... BBCSO and Berlin Orchestra has 3 if I'm not mistaken while AR1 has 5.


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## arcy (May 4, 2022)

slomo said:


> Since I see some people are asking about the dynamic layers. I was interested in that question too so I've looked up the layer count in Strings Pro and noticed it has 2 layers for the longs. I presume they can't lower those even more so the count in Prime should be the same here...
> 
> Here's the link:
> Strings Pro Specs
> ...


AR1 stand for Metropolis Ark 1? if yes, it has 2 layers: https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/371-metropolis-ark-1-notes

BBCSO has 3 layers but with an incomplete dynamic range in the brass sections.

For me, VSL remains the most coherent and well balanced.


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## Laurin Lenschow (May 4, 2022)

arcy said:


> AR1 stand for Metropolis Ark 1? if yes, it has 2 layers: https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/371-metropolis-ark-1-notes


AR1 stands for "Abbey Road One - Orchestral Foundations" (also known as AROOF), Metropolis Ark 1 would be "MA1"


----------



## Spid (May 4, 2022)

I have to admit, as a newb here, sometimes some acronyms are confusing and it always take me a moment to figure out what's being discussed...

Luckily I'm slowly getting it


----------



## slomo (May 4, 2022)

arcy said:


> AR1 stand for Metropolis Ark 1? if yes, it has 2 layers: https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/371-metropolis-ark-1-notes
> 
> BBCSO has 3 layers but with an incomplete dynamic range in the brass sections.
> 
> For me, VSL remains the most coherent and well balanced.


As @Laurin Lenschow pointed out in post below I've substituted AR1 for AROOF (sorry for the confusion and not sticking to the normal conventions here).

Arks are indeed 2 dynamic layers with the exception of Ark 4 which has 3. Speaking of OT their Inspire series also consists of 2 dynamic layers.

Note: As mentioned above I'm only comparing the dynamic layers for the strings.


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## arcy (May 4, 2022)

Laurin Lenschow said:


> AR1 stands for "Abbey Road One - Orchestral Foundations" (also known as AROOF)


Oh you are right!


----------



## ShidoStrife (May 4, 2022)

SSP has the very soft layer as separate articulation, doesn't it?


----------



## mscp (May 4, 2022)

robgb said:


> If it's redundant, why do you need it at all?


Lightweight version of massive libraries to use as sketching material on the go would be one application.


----------



## slomo (May 4, 2022)

ShidoStrife said:


> SSP has the very soft layer as separate articulation, doesn't it?


Yep you're right. SSP does have pianissimo as a separate layer. Sadly it's not included in Prime according to articulations listed on this link...


----------



## holywilly (May 4, 2022)

2 dynamic layers on strings’ sustain/legato aren’t bad, smooth cross fading without phase issue.


----------



## Zanshin (May 4, 2022)

BasariStudios said:


> Ok, Ben or someone else, i have 2 Synchron registered Libraries,
> SS PRO and Elite Strings but my price is still as 1 Library registered.
> 
> Thanks


Elite is not part of Prime so does not count.


----------



## BasariStudios (May 4, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> Elite is not part of Prime so does not count.


Thanks


----------



## BasariStudios (May 4, 2022)

Ben said:


> You could manually delete one of the two mic positions from drive yes, but you will probably not be happy with the sound, as the close mic is not baked into the RoomMix.


If i get Prime, i own SS PRO, could i just delete the Strings from Prime?
If they are actually totally overlaping and i won't be missing anything.


----------



## Ben (May 4, 2022)

BasariStudios said:


> If i get Prime, i own SS PRO, could i just delete the Strings from Prime?
> If they are actually totally overlaping and i won't be missing anything.


You can select/deselect each instrument in the Assistant for installation.


----------



## BasariStudios (May 4, 2022)

Ben said:


> You can select/deselect each instrument in the Assistant for installation.


Thanks


----------



## Per Boysen (May 4, 2022)

Markrs said:


> *Crossgrade options and pricing:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pricing can in praxis be a bit inconsistent. I'm in the "having 2 or more" customer group, and my upgrade price was 95 at first, but then suddenly changed to 275. I guess this happened due to some website code bug, as I registered all my Synchron libraries on the same date. Hoping my price will switch back to follow the price list above


----------



## Ben (May 4, 2022)

Per Boysen said:


> Pricing can in praxis be a bit inconsistent. I'm in the "having 2 or more" customer group, and my upgrade price was 95 at first, but then suddenly changed to 275. I guess this happened due to some website code bug, as I registered all my Synchron libraries on the same date. Hoping my price will switch back to follow the price list above


If the price doesn't seem to be right, please contact our support.


----------



## muziksculp (May 4, 2022)

Hi,

Anyone compare VSL Synchron Prime Edition to OT's Berlin Orchestra Created with Berklee (BOCB) Library, which only has one mic-mix option ? 

Actually, I don't read much on VI-C about the OT BOCB Library.


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## Aitcpiano (May 4, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> Anyone compare VSL Synchron Prime Edition to OT's Berlin Orchestra Created with Berklee (BOCB) Library, which only has one mic-mix option ?
> 
> Actually, I don't read much on VI-C about the OT BOCB Library.


Id definitely go with VSL prime orchestra over OT berlin orchestra. The simple fact that you get a close/mid mic and a mix makes the VSL prime orchestra much more usable and flexible than libraries with only a mix mic.


----------



## Rudianos (May 4, 2022)

This is a great library. Been plucking away with Bass Clarinet. Love the default room/close mix. But just the Close is nice and tight. Best Bass Clarinet out there for tone. Very responsive. Staccato and Agile flexible - portato very nice. Very good legato.

I have Berlin also - very good Bass Clarinet - but ... drenched in room. Its nice to have a dev that gives a clean instrument. I am sure the others are the same.

So tone tone tone. I have many Bass Clarinets. This performer is truly consistent. Great tone in upper range, whole range.


----------



## omc_29 (May 4, 2022)

Is it just me but the legatos in some of the demos for synchron prime edition sound better to me than many of the demos for synchron strings pro?


----------



## Rudianos (May 4, 2022)

VSL Synchron Prime Bass Clarinet ... Default Mix Legato and only Close Mic Compare - No Mod Wheel

View attachment Bass Clarinet.mp3


Berlin Orchestra - Bass Clarinet - less range FYI - Legato Default - No Mod Wheel

View attachment Berlin Bass Clarinet.mp3


----------



## pcarrilho (May 4, 2022)

Rudianos said:


> VSL Synchron Prime Bass Clarinet ... Default Mix Legato and only Close Mic Compare - No Mod Wheel
> 
> View attachment Bass Clarinet.mp3
> 
> ...


VSL sounds really good!


----------



## muziksculp (May 4, 2022)

omc_29 said:


> Is it just me but the legatos in some of the demos for synchron prime edition sound better to me than many of the demos for synchron strings pro?


Which demos made you post this comment ?

Maybe they did tweak/improve the legatos in this version ?

@Ben, can you comment on this. (Thanks).


----------



## Rudianos (May 4, 2022)

Yeah the thing is about close mics... It's kind of like UHD with certain actors and actresses that might be better in SD...

Turn up the close mics on a lot of libraries and what do you hear with wind players? Spit and bad reeds.

VSL musicians are smart enough to suck it out before they start recording.

Maybe I'm hypersensitive as a wind player. What I might call as grit in the string section I call just bad playing for winds... VSL A+ Winds


----------



## Marcus Millfield (May 4, 2022)

Rudianos said:


> Turn up the close mics on a lot of libraries and what do you hear with wind players? Spit and bad reeds.
> 
> VSL musicians are smart enough to suck it out before they start recording.
> 
> Maybe I'm hypersensitive as a wind player. What I might call as grit in the string section I call just bad playing for winds... VSL A+ Winds


You have to admit that up to a certain point, it gives the library a bit of character. I do agree it's a delicate balance and is probably why some have the sentiment that VSL's libraries sound a bit dull or flat.


----------



## Rudianos (May 4, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> You have to admit that up to a certain point, it gives the library a bit of character. I do agree it's a delicate balance and is probably why some have the sentiment that VSL's libraries sound a bit dull or flat.


Yes yes. Sometimes it does add character. It is playing at a jazz club character... Spit your oboe reed up at a AAA orchestral concert and your fired. Sound stuffy in the clarinet throat tones ... goodbye. LOL


----------



## Geomir (May 4, 2022)

Late to the party, I will copy-paste my post that I wrongly posted on the commercial thread, so I can express here my opinions and thoughts about this exciting new release.

I think that a Marimba and a Vibraphone need to be added, since they are both essential melodic percussion instruments.

Also the piano included in the SYNCHRON-ized SE is missing here. It's the lite version of the Synchron Concert Steinway Grand piano, so imho it fits this collection (Synchron Prime) even better than it fits the SYNCHRON-ized SE! It's a pity they didn't include it here.

Seeing that SYNCHRON-ized SE has extra volumes for people that want to expand it, hopefully the same will happen with Synchron Prime. Synchron Solo Strings are not yet available, but chamber strings are (Elite). So if they add a second volume containing i.e. the Concert Grand Lite, marimba, vibraphone and 4 woodwinds sections (3 flutes, 3 oboes, 3 clarinets, 3 bassoons) then it would really be a complete premium starter orchestral library.

Do you know if there are any such plans, @Ben, or is it too early to ask?


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## ALittleNightMusic (May 4, 2022)

gyprock said:


> If you own all the Synchron libraries is there any benefit to paying 95 Euros for a crossgrade to Prime? The standard Synchron libraries have the room and close mics (along with others). If it is a question of resources, it's possible to disable (or delete) slots in the Synchron products and make them look like Prime by saving custom presets. Am I missing something?


No I think it is redundant in that case. Same situation for me - no complaints though since the full versions of the Synchron libraries are great!

Nice VSL was able to create a light version from existing products. Almost no additional effort required since all recording, editing, scripting was done. Same as what OT did. Very different from BBCSO (though wouldn’t it have been nice to have a deeper sampled version of that). Would be as if Spitfire did a light version of Symphonic Orchestra - people would go mad for it I bet. Don’t see it happening though.


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## SandChannel (May 4, 2022)

I am not sure if this is the right place, but can someone help me understand how VSL organizes their lines? Synchron, Synchron-ized, Synchron Prime, Standard versus Full, etc. It is hard to sort out what all is going on with the packages. Thanks!


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## Marcus Millfield (May 4, 2022)

SandChannel said:


> I am not sure if this is the right place, but can someone help me understand how VSL organizes their lines? Synchron, Synchron-ized, Synchron Prime, Standard versus Full, etc. It is hard to sort out what all is going on with the packages. Thanks!


Here you go: https://www.vsl.info/en/tutorials/guides/buyers-guide


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## SandChannel (May 4, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> Here you go: https://www.vsl.info/en/tutorials/guides/buyers-guide


That's perfect! Thanks a million.


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## muziksculp (May 4, 2022)

For Laptop use, how much RAM is needed to run a full template of this library ?


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## RSK (May 4, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> For Laptop use, how much RAM is needed to run a full template of this library ?


My experience with Synchron is that it only loads what it needs; ie, if you aren't using staccato samples it won't load them. So the question of how much RAM is dependent upon how many articulations you are actually using in the tracks, and that makes this question very hard to answer.


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## BasariStudios (May 4, 2022)

That moment when you buy from Best Service and then just wait for a day...


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## SandChannel (May 4, 2022)

BasariStudios said:


> That moment when you buy from Best Service and then just wait for a day...


What is Best Service? I saw it mentioned earlier.


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## Zanshin (May 4, 2022)

SandChannel said:


> What is Best Service? I saw it mentioned earlier.


https://www.bestservice.com/deals/vsl_synchron_prime_edition_intro_offer_4056.html


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## SandChannel (May 4, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> https://www.bestservice.com/deals/vsl_synchron_prime_edition_intro_offer_4056.html


Is there a reason why you would purchase there, because it is cheaper to purchase direct from VSL?
$485 v. $467


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## Zanshin (May 4, 2022)

SandChannel said:


> Is there a reason why you would purchase there, because it is cheaper to purchase direct from VSL?
> $485 v. $467


Once you have an account both places, there’s an option in the cart to check for a vsl discount, usually it takes off the VAT which people from the US should not have to pay.


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## Aitcpiano (May 4, 2022)

You also get bestcoins which can give you bit of an additional discount, which is nice.


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## ShidoStrife (May 4, 2022)

SandChannel said:


> Is there a reason why you would purchase there, because it is cheaper to purchase direct from VSL?
> $485 v. $467


try paying in euro if you're not in Europe. They'll deduct the VAT when checking out.


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## dunamisstudio (May 4, 2022)

Picked it up even though I have most of Synchron. Will be good for a light setup down the road. Got it from Best Service too.


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## muziksculp (May 4, 2022)

dunamisstudio said:


> Picked it up even though I have most of Synchron. Will be good for a light setup down the road. Got it from Best Service too.


I picked it up as well, at $95. it wasn't a tough decision, especially for use on a laptop, once I have one that can handle it. 

Actually, I'm planning on getting a new MBP M1 Max, which will be my first Mac laptop. 

I used to use a cheese grater Desktop Mac Pro over 10 years ago, but have been using Desktop PCs for the past 10 years, and continue to do so.


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## dunamisstudio (May 4, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I picked it up as well, at $95. it wasn't a tough decision, especially for use on a laptop, once I have one that can handle it.
> 
> Actually, I'm planning on getting a new MBP M1 Max, which will be my first Mac laptop.
> 
> I used to use a cheese grater Desktop Mac Pro over 10 years ago, but have been using Desktop PCs for the past 10 years, and continue to do so.


Nice. I thought it is a good deal as well.
I have an older mac laptop, haven't had the need yet to install music production stuff on it. I do have Traktor on it. Only way I've had Mac's were older or cheap. Two laptops i have/had were bought second hand. I have a 2008 Mac Pro i retired almost two years ago. Bought it advertised as setup for Spanish. Just re-installed the OS and replaced the keyboard.  After that I built a PC for music and video.


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## Aitcpiano (May 4, 2022)

Same here, I decided to go for it. I quite like the all in one type packages and it'll be nice to get a flavour of all the main synchron libraries. Adding two synchron libraries and then the prime edition to the basket made it not that much more in price than the introduction price just for the prime edition, so it made sense to also get two of the main synchron libraries to get both the upgrade pricing and also the prime edition for 95 Euro. Ended up going for synchron strings pro and synchron percussion 1. I really don't need anymore string libraries but would have been more expensive just to get synchron percussion 1 and the prime edition without the strings.


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## rnb_2 (May 4, 2022)

SandChannel said:


> Is there a reason why you would purchase there, because it is cheaper to purchase direct from VSL?
> $485 v. $467


If you're in the US, once you put a VSL product in your cart, you'll see the price drop. Synchron Prime drops from $485 to $418 for me - I have all of BBO, but no Synchron libraries, so no cross grade discount. For products with upgrade pricing, if you have a qualifying product, the price is also notably lower at Best Service than direct from VSL. For instance, because I own the BBO strings, my upgrade price to Synchron Strings Pro (Full) is $340 from VSL, but $320 from Best Service. You just have a wait a few hours to a day for Best Service to process the order to allow for the communication process between them and VSL.


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## StillLife (May 5, 2022)

rnb_2 said:


> If you're in the US, once you put a VSL product in your cart, you'll see the price drop. Synchron Prime drops from $485 to $418 for me - I have all of BBO, but no Synchron libraries, so no cross grade discount. For products with upgrade pricing, if you have a qualifying product, the price is also notably lower at Best Service than direct from VSL. For instance, because I own the BBO strings, my upgrade price to Synchron Strings Pro (Full) is $340 from VSL, but $320 from Best Service. You just have a wait a few hours to a day for Best Service to process the order to allow for the communication process between them and VSL.


And I think you lose the possibility to return the product when you don't like it?


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## Saxer (May 5, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> OK. Thanks
> 
> My price is $95. not sure I need it, but I think this library would be great for laptop users.


Had the same price... at least it add's a harp recorded in the same hall (the full Synchron Harp is really expensive and too detailed for my needs).


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## wcreed51 (May 5, 2022)

That's why I only buy direct from VSL anymore


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## Spid (May 5, 2022)

KISS= Keep It Stupid Simple


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## Aitcpiano (May 5, 2022)

Just tried out the prime edition. I think this is a really well done library. Very nice! Love the brass! Never tried synchon brass before but this is very nice brass. For some reason the strings legatos sound better than what I remember from trying out synchron strings pro in the past. Also the included mix mic in combination with the close/mid mic of the library has been done really well. The combination of the mix mic and close/mid mic gives some nice control over adding clarity and detail to a section while providing a simpler/less messing approach on mic positions, very nice! On first try I think this is probably one of the best all in one type packages you can get.


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## thomasjdev (May 5, 2022)

StillLife said:


> And I think you lose the possibility to return the product when you don't like it?


I’ve done a couple VSL returns with my purchases through bestservice and never had a problem. You email bestservice and the coordinate with VSL on the steps for revoking the license


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## Aitcpiano (May 5, 2022)

@Ben Is there a similar mic mix preset option in the full synchron libraries as what you get in the Synchron Prime edition? So just a mix preset or something similar that will load just a room mix with a close/mid mic? I quite like this combination. Great on resources, easy to use as it seems like its already been pre mixed well but still gives you the flexibility of adding detail to the sound and some extra control by having those close and mid mics available.

Also, I'd love an expansion option for this new prime edition library. One that maybe expands the articulations slightly more, similar to an SE Plus. I know you probably cant say but are there any plans for that?


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## SandChannel (May 5, 2022)

Well, there you go. I did the Best Service purchase last night and just installed the library this morning. Thanks a million, everyone!


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## arcy (May 5, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> Just tried out the prime edition. I think this is a really well done library. Very nice! Love the brass! Never tried synchon brass before but this is very nice brass. For some reason the strings legatos sound better than what I remember from trying out synchron strings pro in the past. Also the included mix mic in combination with the close/mid mic of the library has been done really well. The combination of the mix mic and close/mid mic gives some nice control over adding clarity and detail to a section while providing a simpler/less messing approach on mic positions, very nice! On first try I think this is probably one of the best all in one type packages you can get.


I have Kopernikus and Jupiter from BBO and I am tempted to refund them to Prime...I noticed that the difference between BBO brass and Prime is the number of articulations and the number of mics. If layers and sound are the same it should be a good choice..


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## Aitcpiano (May 5, 2022)

Also @Ben I've noticed that the master volume levels between the main libraries/BBO seem to be different in some mix levels. Just wondering if the prime edition and synchron editions/BBO are mixed in volumes to work with each other. Seems like several of the patches are set to a higher master volume level than the levels set in the main synchron libraries particularly the BBO percussion and synchron percussion 1 seem to be set at a lower master volume level?


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## Evans (May 5, 2022)

Heads up that Guy Michelmore was given a review copy and will post a video on Prime to YouTube tomorrow at 10:00 AM Eastern / 2:00 PM GMT.


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## RSK (May 5, 2022)




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## dunamisstudio (May 5, 2022)

RSK said:


>



Had me excited for a moment and thought it released early.


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## dcoscina (May 5, 2022)

I’ve gone through it and I think it’s really good. The mixer and articulations are pretty varied for a library like this. The brass ensemble is especially tasty. I think I will be using this for my Dorico composing as well because all of the winds and brass have 1 and 2nd players.


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## wcreed51 (May 5, 2022)

I see that it has it's own section in the Synchorn Player preset tree, so imagine there will be additions in the future, like solo strings.

I also wonder if it represents a collection on it's way to being incorporated into StaffPad


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## Aitcpiano (May 5, 2022)

wcreed51 said:


> I see that it has it's own section in the Synchorn Player preset tree, so imagine there will be additions in the future, like solo strings.
> 
> I also wonder if it represents a collection on it's way to being incorporated into StaffPad


That would be great. I hope that is what they are planning on doing as I really like it and would love some expansions to it, like you get with SE plus.


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## HenryBerg (May 5, 2022)

arcy said:


> I have Kopernikus and Jupiter from BBO and I am tempted to refund them to Prime...


Can you really do this? I bought the 6 BBO that create the main orchestra last year (H, J, K, L, M, O) but haven't even downloaded them yet (long story).
Could I address VSL and ask them if they could be so kind to change my BBOs for Prime?


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## rnb_2 (May 5, 2022)

HenryBerg said:


> Can you really do this? I bought the 6 BBO that create the main orchestra last year (H, J, K, L, M, O) but haven't even downloaded them yet (long story).
> Could I address VSL and ask them if they could be so kind to change my BBOs for Prime?


It's normally a 14-day return policy, but I think they should be able to tell if you haven't downloaded them, so it's worth a shot.


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## Karmand (May 5, 2022)

So here are some Logic articulation sets for PRIME STRINGS, Brass & Woods.
Violins and Violas share the same set while Cellos and Basses are separate.
I"ll be working on Harp next.
Just thought I'd share.

Tutti is now included in the Strings incase you've downloaded them previously to May 7.

BTW - I think the lib is pretty good. Any missing articulations I have in the other Synchron Libs - but this is fast and easy to write some scratch stuff... then flesh it out later with other libs.


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## Evans (May 6, 2022)

_Now_ Guy is starting up the video, available live in the chat


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## muk (May 6, 2022)

Guy spoilers two upcoming free releases, it seems. Violin runs, and harp glissandi:



The harp glissandi are interesting. I thought it an unfortunate omission in VSL Prime. If they are coming in a free release that certainly fills a gap.


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## Nimrod7 (May 7, 2022)

*THIS POST IS INACCURATE, READ BELOW:*

I was dreaming for a long time to have access to VSL libraries on the road, and I was hoping that the Prime edition could have resolved this.

Unfortunately the iLok limitation defeats the purpose of utilizing this library. It only supports machine activation, and hardware dongle, not cloud activation, and only 1 license is provided.

The workflow I was indenting to use it is sketch on the way, and when back in the studio to load the project and continue from there, by utilizing the full libraries.

Unfortunately I will have to either move the machine activation back and forth, or carry around a dongle (which I wont). The iLok Cloud Session could have resolved this issue.

This is not a limitation with OT Berklee, which is what is currently loaded on my laptop.


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## ptram (May 7, 2022)

Nimrod7 said:


> Unfortunately I will have to either move the machine activation back and forth, or carry around a dongle (which I wont). The iLok Cloud Session could have resolved this issue.


Not owning the library, I didn’t know it uses machine activation. What you see as an issue seems to me a great solution, well conceived for people on the road. Moving an iLok license to a different machine is just a few seconds, and is not certainly the most problematic operation when preparing for a trip.

Then, having two licenses would be better, but I understand the rationale behind this limitation.

Paolo

(EDIT: It ends up it is not machine authorization, but cloud or key.)


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## Gerbil (May 7, 2022)

I've had a proper day trying it out and think it's a decent orchestral package for students. Lean and very well set out. The upper brass and percussion are particularly good. The strings have that distinct VSL sound that isn't quite my thing and I don't care for the trombones, but it is all perfectly useable.

For the full price, this puts it up against BBCSO Pro when the latter is discounted and there's no comparison for me there: BBCSO is much the more organic, convincing sound. But it is a huge library, not best suited to more humble laptop use (not many students have portable powerhouses) and, while I haven't had an issue with it, recent reports of player issues leaves me reluctant to recommend it.


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## DaddyO (May 7, 2022)

Nimrod7 said:


> Unfortunately the iLok limitation defeats the purpose of utilizing this library. It only supports machine activation, and hardware dongle, not cloud activation, and only 1 license is provided.
> 
> ...
> 
> Unfortunately I will have to either move the machine activation back and forth, or carry around a dongle (which I wont). The iLok Cloud Session could have resolved this issue.








Not sure what you are referring to. The Prime library installed and activated like any other iLok library with Cloud activation, and though I only tested it briefly it worked. Am I missing something?


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## Geomir (May 7, 2022)

@Nimrod7 

VSL's paid libraries fully support iLok cloud. It's this or dongle (no machine activation).

Only VSL's free libraries support iLok machine activation.


----------



## Ben (May 7, 2022)

Nimrod7 said:


> I was dreaming for a long time to have access to VSL libraries on the road, and I was hoping that the Prime edition could have resolved this.
> 
> Unfortunately the iLok limitation defeats the purpose of utilizing this library. It only supports machine activation, and hardware dongle, not cloud activation, and only 1 license is provided.
> 
> ...


All our paid products DO NOT support machine activation. But you can use an physical iLok USB key OR the iLok Cloud (including Synchron Prime Edition).

All free products run on machine actiavtion or physical iLok, but not in the iLok Cloud.


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## Nimrod7 (May 7, 2022)

uh, that was a mistake on my side. 
I updated the iLok Manager, and that unlocked Cloud Activation, it was disabled before (I never wanted to use it apart from this specific library).

Thanks for all your input, I will update my post above not to confused others.


----------



## BasariStudios (May 7, 2022)

Nimrod7 said:


> uh, that was a mistake on my side.
> I updated the iLok Manager, and that unlocked Cloud Activation, it was disabled before (I never wanted to use it apart from this specific library).
> 
> Thanks for all your input, I will update my post above not to confused others.


Yet you still did not update the post except some header on top. Not many people will find that. Just delete the iLok part from your post so people don't get confused and this topic turns unto ,,why VSL forgot iLok Cloud".


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## Nimrod7 (May 7, 2022)

BasariStudios said:


> Yet you still did not update the post except some header on top. Not many people will find that. Just delete the iLok part from your post so people don't get confused and this topic turns unto ,,why VSL forgot iLok Cloud".


The post is quoted anyhow, and it will be hard for people to follow the conversation if I remove parts of it. 
I added the header which is the first thing you read. I feel that's enough.


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## RogiervG (May 7, 2022)

muk said:


>




He needs to redo the video, there are audio issues here and there (oversteering/crackelings, especially the brass ensembles), starting mostly around 22/23 minutes in. The gain is too hot in this video


----------



## aeliron (May 7, 2022)

ptram said:


> Not owning the library, I didn’t know it uses machine activation. What you see as an issue seems to me a great solution, well conceived for people on the road. Moving an iLok license to a different machine is just a few seconds, and is not certainly the most problematic operation when preparing for a trip.
> 
> Then, having two licenses would be better, but I understand the rationale behind this limitation.
> 
> Paolo


No, it’s not machine activation (unlike, say, Opus). You’ll need the physical key OR constant internet access to let it ping every 10 minutes.


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## DaddyO (May 7, 2022)

Nimrod7 said:


> The post is quoted anyhow, and it will be hard for people to follow the conversation if I remove parts of it.
> I added the header which is the first thing you read. I feel that's enough.


As the one who quoted the post, I agree you did the right thing.


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## fakemaxwell (May 8, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> I've felt this way about VSL for years. Back when I used Special Edition stuff, I thought it sounded _nothing_ like some of the demos, and having gotten the organ over the weekend, it's the same experience there.
> 
> That's why I still pay attention to what they're doing despite so much of what I hear leaving a poor impression. It feels like, compared to other developers, there is just a larger gap between what many of their demos showcase, and what is _actually possible_ with what's being demonstrated. And to be clear, I'm speaking purely about production/technical stuff, and not impugning anyone's compositional abilities.


Do you have any examples of better demos? Interested in Prime but I agree that the demos on the site are maybe not living up to the acclaim from people using it daily...


----------



## RSK (May 8, 2022)

I’ve always thought that VSL demos sound overly quantized, which is ironic given their built-in humanization functions. It’s most obvious in runs, especially woodwinds. In reality you can make them sound much more realistic.


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## Flyo (May 8, 2022)

I would like to hear see a walkthrough of every each sound and mic placement. Before having this I couldn’t not go for a purchase for that amount I think.


----------



## CT (May 8, 2022)

fakemaxwell said:


> Do you have any examples of better demos? Interested in Prime but I agree that the demos on the site are maybe not living up to the acclaim from people using it daily...


I'm afraid I don't. I'd love to get my hands on some of it and try to paint (what is to me, at least) a better picture, as I've tried to do with some other libraries that I think get a bum rap for the wrong reasons, but it's a big investment to make on faith (even with a return policy).


----------



## RSK (May 8, 2022)

Flyo said:


> I would like to hear see a walkthrough of every each sound and mic placement. Before having this I couldn’t not go for a purchase for that amount I think.


Unlike other library vendors, VSL have a return policy. Buy it, and if you don’t like it return it within 14 days. That should be enough time to hear every instrument and every mic position.


----------



## Flyo (May 8, 2022)

RSK said:


> Unlike other library vendors, VSL have a return policy. Buy it, and if you don’t like it return it within 14 days. That should be enough time to hear every instrument and every mic position.


Yess, it’s really unique and useful but it’s a huge transaction besides. A walkthrough it’s the classic move to convince sales really


----------



## dcoscina (May 8, 2022)

My two wishes for this library:
1. Marimba
2. Trills (absent for all instruments)

Of course the mic settings are one of the assets of this library that similar orchestral packages at this price cannot boast. Like everything in life, there are trade Offs and I have trills in the BBO line up so it’s not a huge thing for me personally.


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## Aitcpiano (May 8, 2022)

dcoscina said:


> My two wishes for this library:
> 1. Marimba
> 2. Trills (absent for all instruments)
> 
> ...


I'd also like some additional articulations such as the leg marc patch that are in synchron brass / woods. I am really hoping they decide to do an expansion for this like a prime plus library (similar to SE plus). Would also be nice to get a marimba. 

The mic settings was one of the big selling points for me. If it was just a library with a single room mix then I would not have purchased it.


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## fakemaxwell (May 8, 2022)

Flyo said:


> Yess, it’s really unique and useful but it’s a huge transaction besides. A walkthrough it’s the classic move to convince sales really


Well....you're free to like what you like of course, but I am taking a reasonable return policy 100/100 times.


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## Flyo (May 8, 2022)

fakemaxwell said:


> Well....you're free to like what you like of course, but I am taking a reasonable return policy 100/100 times.


The demos are good or not for some but a walkthrough and a return policy would be really great, now I’m just waiting for some user showcasing these 🙄


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## NeonMediaKJT (May 10, 2022)

does the prime library lack any dynamic layers compared to to the full libraries?


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## Ben (May 10, 2022)

NeonMediaKJT said:


> does the prime library lack any dynamic layers compared to to the full libraries?


With exception of Harp and Percussion the dynamic layers are identical.


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## NeonMediaKJT (May 10, 2022)

Ben said:


> With exception of Harp and Percussion the dynamic layers are identical.


is timbre adjust available in the prime version?


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## Ben (May 10, 2022)

NeonMediaKJT said:


> is timbre adjust available in the prime version?


Yes, it's part of the free Synchron Player and can be used with any Synchron Player based libraries - including Prime Edition and even the free libraries.


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## sundrowned (May 10, 2022)

Anyone done a VEP Dorico setup yet?

I'm just about to start doing it but if someone's already done it..

Fwiw attached is a very basic vepro setup


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## dcoscina (May 10, 2022)

I did a very short thing... this actually was at the end of another piece I was trying out and I liked it better. Note- the Flutes and Clarinets are from BBO Orion. I wanted a unison section sound for them.


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## Geomir (May 11, 2022)

@Ben 

Do you have any information about possible VSL plans to expand the Prime Edition in the future with extra volumes, offering the missing percussion instruments (marimba, vibraphone), Chamber (Elite) Strings, a Synchron Piano (lite version), etc...?

P.S. Of course I mean paid ones. Not free.


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## Ben (May 11, 2022)

Geomir said:


> @Ben
> 
> Do you have any information about possible VSL plans to expand the Prime Edition in the future with extra volumes, offering the missing percussion instruments (marimba, vibraphone), Chamber (Elite) Strings, a Synchron Piano (lite version), etc...?
> 
> P.S. Of course I mean paid ones. Not free.


I don't have any information about plans for expansions. We have to wait and see


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## Geomir (May 11, 2022)

Ben said:


> I don't have any information about plans for expansions. We have to wait and see


Well, you have all the time in the world to "wait and see". But I have up to 31th of May.  

I can understand why you didn't include the Elite Strings in the Synchron Prime Edition, it would make it much bigger in size (and probably much more expensive). Same for the Synchron Concert D-274 Light (size and cost).

But seriously, the Marimba and the Vibraphone are essential instruments that wouldn't increase so badly the size of the library. Just the "single hits" with normal mallets would be more than enough for a starter library. Please tell your colleagues to offer us the opportunity to include them in the future. And/or any info about that possibility (ideally before the 31th of May).


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## Zanshin (May 11, 2022)

Buy Mallets II and III as well?


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## doctoremmet (May 11, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> Buy Mallets II and III as well?


Easy! Easily liked!

But…

How would that increase the investment, expressed in a % of the current intro price of Prime? We’re not all rich you know…


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## Zanshin (May 11, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Easy! Easily liked!
> 
> But…
> 
> How would that increase the investment, expressed in a % of the current intro price of Prime? We’re not all rich you know…


LOL!!

I know they are pricey compared to Prime, but really for me that just underlines what a great value Prime is.


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## Zanshin (May 11, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> How would that increase the investment, expressed in a % of the current intro price of Prime? We’re not all rich you know…


Also I am pretty sure your budget and my budget for VIs are comparable haha.


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## Ben (May 11, 2022)

Adding those two instruments to Prime would also mean that we have to offer crossgrade prices from and to Percussion II and III - which would also mean that we could not offer the Prime Edition for this price and with such awesome crossgrade discounts.


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## doctoremmet (May 11, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> Also I am pretty sure your budget and my budget for VIs are comparable haha.


I am talking about the reaction to Geomir’s honest question. Although I appreciate the reply -which I think is genuine- I can’t understand how adding EUR 185 to a base investment of EUR 445 is seriously considered as a solution


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## Aitcpiano (May 11, 2022)

Ben said:


> Adding those two instruments to Prime would also mean that we have to offer crossgrade prices from and to Percussion II and III - which would also mean that we could not offer the Prime Edition for this price and with such awesome crossgrade discounts.


You could offer a prime edition expansion at cost that Included additional instruments from libraries such as elite strings, percussion 2 and 3 and some additional articulation for strings, brass and woods and then also offer some additional crossgrade discounts to elite strings and perc 2 and 3 for owners of both the prime addition and a prime addition expansion.


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## Ben (May 11, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> You could offer a prime edition expansion at cost that Included additional instruments from libraries such as elite strings, percussion 2 and 3 and some additional articulation for strings, brass and woods and then also offer some additional crossgrade discounts to elite strings and perc 2 and 3 for owners of both the prime addition and a prime addition expansion.


That's right - but I don't know if there are such plans and when these might be executed. I'm not a product manager nor a marketing guy; I'm a software dev and product specialist (and on the side I'm also present here on VI-Control to answer questions and stay in touch with our community  )


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## Zanshin (May 11, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> I am talking about the reaction to Geomir’s honest question. Although I appreciate the reply -which I think is genuine- I can’t understand how adding EUR 185 to a base investment of EUR 445 is seriously considered as a solution


If someone is not going to buy Prime because it lacks two percussion instruments, that to me smacks of cutting your nose off to spite your face.

If someone "needs" XXX, and it's available to purchase, buying it is most definitely a solution. To say it's not is intellectual dishonesty. 

Buy Prime now, buy Mallets II + III when you can afford it. It's pretty simple and straight forward.


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## NeonMediaKJT (May 11, 2022)

Ben said:


> Yes, it's part of the free Synchron Player and can be used with any Synchron Player based libraries - including Prime Edition and even the free libraries.


Wait, so am i supposed to have this available on Synchron Strings Pro?


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## Ben (May 11, 2022)

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Wait, so am i supposed to have this available on Synchron Strings Pro?


Yes 
If you don't see it under Controls, you can click on the "+" and add it from the list.


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## HenryBerg (May 11, 2022)

Ben,
How different/similar are the Synchron-ized SE1,1+ vs PRIME, considering they're priced almost identically? 
That is, to form the basis of an orchestra, to which further stuff could be added. Looks like PRIME is destined to *replace* the old (VI heritage) SE

The Syn-zed SE 1-1+, has more articulations, but the sound is a bit cold and I have yet to hear something that sounds cohesive, unlike pieces done with SYNCHRON libs, which PRIME comes from.

And what solo strings can complement best PRIME?


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## NeonMediaKJT (May 11, 2022)

Ben said:


> Yes
> If you don't see it under Controls, you can click on the "+" and add it from the list.


wow, that's just made the library ten times better for me!


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## Aitcpiano (May 11, 2022)

Ben said:


> That's right - but I don't know if there are such plans and when these might be executed. I'm not a product manager nor a marketing guy; I'm a software dev and product specialist (and on the side I'm also present here on VI-Control to answer questions and stay in touch with our community  )


Can certainly appreciate how you don't know yourself of any such plans, and how it would not be your decision to make  

I'm just expressing my interest in such an expansion in the hope that one is offered. I already have the prime edition now and would certainly buy an expansion to it.


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## Geomir (May 11, 2022)

@doctoremmet and @Zanshin 

Thanks for your advice! As @doctoremmet mentioned, money can be an issue. But even if it wasn't, it just doesn't make any sense to have a basic library for almost everything, and then add the most detailed Marimba and Vibraphone ever existed, having more articulations for these two instruments than my 1st violins!

Also it would be something between funny and stupid to have my strings-winds-brass-perc all-in-one taking 70GB of space, and only Mallets 2 and 3 taking 100GB of space.

Anyway, @Ben's reply covered me in a technical way, since these two instruments don't belong to Synchron Percussion I. So that's the "root of the problem" imho, that a library that costs 465€ or 840€ (I am tlaking about Synchron Percussion I) doesn't include a Marimba or a Vibraphone!


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## Geomir (May 11, 2022)

Ben said:


> I'm not a product manager nor a marketing guy;


Time to become one.


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## Ben (May 11, 2022)

Geomir said:


> Time to become one.


I'm happy with my current work, but thanks


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## Geomir (May 11, 2022)

Ben said:


> I'm happy with my current work, but thanks


*Announcement: Whoever adds Marimba and Vibraphone to Sycnhron Prime Edition, I promise him a free tour to the Acropolis of Athens, Lycabettus Hill and Cape Sounion, just to name a few!*












Will it be you, @Ben? Or will it be someone else? I leave the final decision to you...

Seriously now, I will be a little sad to pull the trigger, return to the world of VSL, buy Synchron Prime Edition, own the best sounds from the best Recording Stage, all in a wonderful package with the most 2 convenient mics, easy to use, production ready, cohesive and balanced, easy on CPU, RAM and SSD resources, and then having to "look elsewhere" for 2 of the most essential melodic percussion instruments.


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## RSK (May 11, 2022)

Geomir said:


> Seriously now, I will be a little sad to pull the trigger, return to the world of VSL, buy Synchron Prime Edition, own the best sounds from the best Recording Stage, all in a wonderful package with the most 2 convenient mics, easy to use, production ready, cohesive and balanced, easy on CPU, RAM and SSD resources, and then having to "look elsewhere" for 2 of the most essential melodic percussion instruments.


Oh for Pete's sake:









Marimba


The 8Dio Marimba for Kontakt (VST, AU, AAX) uses our advanced Groove Sampling™ technique, that allows you to create hyper-realistic percussive grooves with the touch of a key. The 8Dio Marimba contains 12 unique articulations (including soft mallets, harder mallets, brushes, and a bow) and 3...




8dio.com












Vibraphone


The 8Dio Vibraphone contains 12 unique articulations and 3 microphone positions including different types of mallets, brushes as well as bowed vibraphone styles. The different playing techniques give this virtual vibraphone instrument incredible versatility.




8dio.com





Problem solved.


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## Geomir (May 11, 2022)

RSK said:


> Oh for Pete's sake:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for your recommendation. I would strongly prefer the ones recorded at the Synchron Stage Vienna, so they fit perfectly in the mix with the rest of the Synchron Orchestra.

And I don't want such detail that I would buy a dedicated Marimba or Vibraphone library, I just wished they were included in the Prime Edition, since they are not considered rare or unusual instruments.

As I mentioned, I wished that I didn't have to "look elsewhere", since the strong points of the Synchron Series is their wonderful sound, the stage itself, the mics, the balanced volume and position between all instruments and sections, the coherence of the articulations, the production-ready sound, the Synchron Player, etc.

EDIT: Also tell Pete that I don't own Kontakt Retail, since I don't have any use for it, and I buy sample libraries for companies that support Kontakt Player or they have developed their own Player.


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## dunamisstudio (May 11, 2022)

Geomir said:


> Well, you have all the time in the world to "wait and see". But I have up to 31th of May.
> 
> I can understand why you didn't include the Elite Strings in the Synchron Prime Edition, it would make it much bigger in size (and probably much more expensive). Same for the Synchron Concert D-274 Light (size and cost).
> 
> But seriously, the Marimba and the Vibraphone are essential instruments that wouldn't increase so badly the size of the library. Just the "single hits" with normal mallets would be more than enough for a starter library. Please tell your colleagues to offer us the opportunity to include them in the future. And/or any info about that possibility (ideally before the 31th of May).





Geomir said:


> Thank you for your recommendation. I would strongly prefer the ones recorded at the Synchron Stage Vienna, so they fit perfectly in the mix with the rest of the Synchron Orchestra.
> 
> And I don't want such detail that I would buy a dedicated Marimba or Vibraphone library, I just wished they were included in the Prime Edition, since they are not considered rare or unusual instruments.
> 
> ...


Buy Prime now, then like @Zanshin said, buy Mallets II & III later. Wait til their next sale with percussion.

Then go download this free piano





SOFT IMPERIAL - Vienna Symphonic Library


Free instrument for the Vienna Symphonic Library's Synchron Piano software.




www.vsl.co.at





When you download Mallets II & III, you can choose what mics to install and save on HDD space.


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## fakemaxwell (May 11, 2022)

Had a chance to put together something with Prime, an orchestration I've been working on for a bit-


This is essentially straight out of the box, nearly default patches and no other processing. The only thing different was bumping up the close mics for some of the more "solo" parts. I'd say I'm pretty okay at programming, so this should be a decent indication of what you might expect for your first go.

Initial impressions:

I was initially using Spitfire shorts for the strings and was beginning to pull my hair out a bit at the sloppy timings. Had heard good things about the sample editing of VSL and when this released I uh...closed my eyes and hit buy, thinking if I didn't like it it could always be returned.

Luckily, it worked great right out of the box! The editing is indeed much better, and there are SO many more useful articulations in this "mid-level" offering than I was expecting. Having speed options for staccato plus sfz patches was perfect for this. So far no issues with Synchron Player. The close mics sound good and are very helpful.

Head to head vs AROOF tutti patches, the bigger space of Abbey Road recordings does sound lusher...but not that much, and with a little reverb fun you can get them pretty close.

Overall I'm extremely upset that I won't be returning this collection, and will probably be making my wallet lighter buying more VSL libraries in the very near future 😡😡😡


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## dcoscina (May 11, 2022)

I did a little thing with Prime last night. I cannot wait until Bablyon Waves updates their list to include this since I'm so used to using the expression maps for Studio one and Logic


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## ennbr (May 11, 2022)

dcoscina said:


> Bablyon Waves updates their list to include this since I'm so used to using the expression maps for Studio


Studio one doesn't need anything VSL supports Sound Variations unless your looking for normalized keyswitchs


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## sundrowned (May 11, 2022)

sundrowned said:


> Anyone done a VEP Dorico setup yet?
> 
> I'm just about to start doing it but if someone's already done it..
> 
> Fwiw attached is a very basic vepro setup


Got round to doing a basic Dorico Vepro setup if anyone's interested. Uses the VSL Prime Expression maps. Set up for mixing in vepro with 4 section audio returns to Dorico. Haven't really tested anything, it's just barebones. 
God I hate setting up vepro in dorico. So much clicking.


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## dcoscina (May 11, 2022)

ennbr said:


> Studio one doesn't need anything VSL supports Sound Variations unless your looking for normalized keyswitch





ennbr said:


> Studio one doesn't need anything VSL supports Sound Variations unless your looking for normalized keyswitchs


not for Mac Silicon. It needs VST3 which is not recognized yet.


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## Dewdman42 (May 11, 2022)

so how much percussion is included with this Prime? I already have all the Synchron cross libraries involved, except for percussion. So while the 95 Euro price is not much, I am not really sure I will gain anything, other then whatever is in the percussion side of it. Would appreciate any comments about it. Also, not really wanting to add 70GB of samples to my drive that are literally all duplicates of samples I already have (except for percussion of course), but any other comments about what productivity advantage I might gain with this would be appreciated. If I wasn't already stocked high with a lot of Vsl stuff I would probably pay full price for this though...I personally would rather have this then EWHO, I know people here will cry blasphemy, but that is how I feel.


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## fakemaxwell (May 11, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> so how much percussion is included with this Prime?


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## Evans (May 11, 2022)

Full list on the web site 





SYNCHRON PRIME EDITION - Vienna Symphonic Library


The Synchron Prime Edition gathers the essential instruments and articulations of our highly successful Synchron Series into one affordable and resource-saving collection that is easy to use, versatile and fun to play.




www.vsl.co.at


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## dunamisstudio (May 11, 2022)

@Dewdman42 If you don't have any percussion in the Synchron space but have the rest. 95 is a great deal considering most BBO drum packs are that price.


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## Dewdman42 (May 11, 2022)

Maybe. I don't really want 70GB of duplicate samples on my drive. Also...I have lots of other Vsl percussion and MirPro...so...its not like I really need the cut down set of Synchron either..I will probably end up buying full Synchron eventually anyway. Anyway just wondering if there is anything else besides percussion that I could get out of it...


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## dunamisstudio (May 11, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> Maybe. I don't really want 70GB of duplicate samples on my drive. Also...I have lots of other Vsl percussion and MirPro...so...its not like I really need the cut down set of Synchron either..I will probably end up buying full Synchron eventually anyway. Anyway just wondering if there is anything else besides percussion that I could get out of it...


well you don't need any then if you got VSL Percussion and MIR Pro. But you can install what you need from Vienna Assistant to save space.


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## ptram (May 11, 2022)

Geomir said:


> Also it would be something between funny and stupid to have my strings-winds-brass-perc all-in-one taking 70GB of space, and only Mallets 2 and 3 taking 100GB of space.


Just remove the mics not included in the Prime edition, and the two additional instruments will take little space. As for the too many articulations, just remove them from the preset, and get a much simpler one.

Paolo


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## Saxer (May 11, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> Maybe. I don't really want 70GB of duplicate samples on my drive. Also...I have lots of other Vsl percussion and MirPro...so...its not like I really need the cut down set of Synchron either..I will probably end up buying full Synchron eventually anyway. Anyway just wondering if there is anything else besides percussion that I could get out of it...


I got the Prime edition just for the harp (and probably for later use on a laptop). I just loaded the harp instrument. No doubles on the drive needed.

btw: concerning the missing marimba in the percussion: I didn't find a marimba in full Synchron Percussion either. Maybe it will follow or it will be a separate library (like the harp).


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## Dewdman42 (May 11, 2022)

Saxer said:


> I got the Prime edition just for the harp (and probably for later use on a laptop). I just loaded the harp instrument. No doubles on the drive needed.



Are you saying that Prime references the samples from the same location as the full versions of these libraries? In which case, installing it would result in my case of using hardly any new space at all...other then for the percussion which I don't have the full version yet. Is that how Prime installs?


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## Marcus Millfield (May 11, 2022)

Saxer said:


> btw: concerning the missing marimba in the percussion: I didn't find a marimba in full Synchron Percussion either. Maybe it will follow or it will be a separate library (like the harp).


The marimba is in Mallets III (and VI percussion, as a VI single instrument and probably one of the SE's)


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## Gerbil (May 11, 2022)

fakemaxwell said:


> Head to head vs AROOF tutti patches, the bigger space of Abbey Road recordings does sound lusher...but not that much, and with a little reverb fun you can get them pretty close.


Do you really think this sounds close to AROOF? They're miles apart.


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## fakemaxwell (May 11, 2022)

Gerbil said:


> Do you really think this sounds close to AROOF? They're miles apart.


No, they were recorded in two very different spaces so they're not going to sound the same out of the box of course. But when I added some Lexicon style verb and did some EQ matching....it wasn't far off. It's not one for one but the effect to the listener is similar enough.


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## Geomir (May 12, 2022)

fakemaxwell said:


>


Thanks for the screenshot! Really useful! What about the articulations of the main non-pitched percussion instruments (i.e. Bass Drum, Concert Toms, Snare Drum, Suspended Cymbal)? Are there only single hits and looped rolls (controlled by the ModWheel), or are there also pre-recorded crescendos, swells, upbeats, etc.?


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## Aitcpiano (May 12, 2022)

Geomir said:


> Thanks for the screenshot! Really useful! What about the articulations of the main non-pitched percussion instruments (i.e. Bass Drum, Concert Toms, Snare Drum, Suspended Cymbal)? Are there only single hits and looped rolls (controlled by the ModWheel), or are there also pre-recorded crescendos, swells, upbeats, etc.?


I believe it is single hits and rolls controlled by the modwheel. No pre-recorded crescendos, swells or upbeats. That's all in the main synchron percussion 1.


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## Geomir (May 12, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> I believe it is single hits and rolls controlled by the modwheel. No pre-recorded crescendos, swells or upbeats. That's all in the main synchron percussion 1.


Thanks.


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## Steve Martin (May 12, 2022)

Hi Ben,

For the Special Edition libraries, VSL had some projects that used different DAWs where you just load the file and it plays it back with most of the samples used in the library. Are they, or would they consider doing this for prime? 
I hope you don't mind my question here.

Thank you Ben,

best, 

Steve



Ben said:


> *12
> And it's in December.


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## HenryBerg (May 12, 2022)

Ben,
I'll ask again, thank you. How is Prime positioned in VSL land along the (old) Syn-z SE 1+, considering they are priced exactly the same and have a similar approach of a starting Orch? I guess SE is the past, and Prime the future. And if both Prime and BBO originate from the Synchron packs, how is Prime different to an orchestra built with BBO modules?

In other words, for someone interested in jumping into the VSL world, where to go or start with?


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## Zanshin (May 12, 2022)

I am not Ben but...



HenryBerg said:


> In other words, for someone interested in jumping into the VSL world, where to go or start with?


How much money do you have?



HenryBerg said:


> I'll ask again, thank you. How is Prime positioned in VSL land along the (old) Syn-z SE 1+, considering they are priced exactly the same and have a similar approach of a starting Orch? I guess SE is the past, and Prime the future. And if both Prime and BBO originate from the Synchron packs, how is Prime different to an orchestra built with BBO modules?


The SEs (and really all the VI libraries) are not going away, they still sound great and are still a great value. You described them as sounding "cold" earlier so my guess is they are not for you.

BBO are not a 'starter' libraries. Where they overlap with the full Synchron libraries they contain all the mics the Full Synchron library would have. The essential difference, aside from content, between BBO and Synchron - is more about a way of working. BBO is intended to be a more tutti biased approach where as Synchron is more traditional.

My guess is Prime is a good place for you to start.


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## doctoremmet (May 12, 2022)

HenryBerg said:


> Ben,
> I'll ask again, thank you. How is Prime positioned in VSL land along the (old) Syn-z SE 1+, considering they are priced exactly the same and have a similar approach of a starting Orch? I guess SE is the past, and Prime the future. And if both Prime and BBO originate from the Synchron packs, how is Prime different to an orchestra built with BBO modules?
> 
> In other words, for someone interested in jumping into the VSL world, where to go or start with?


My take on this:

1) Sy’d SE’s volumes 1, 2 and their + versions are your “entry level orchestra”, somewhat comparable to Prime. 

But the other volumes allow you to expand your palette with a lot of extra flavours and sampling concepts. The Dimension series for instance take a unique approach, that will never be replicated in a Synchron version simply because the design philosophy behind all of these libraries: they are recorded dry in a studio. And there is a plethora of extra strings (chamber, solo instruments, the original apassionata strings), brass, slightly more exotic woodwinds, baroque instruments - which aren’t part of BBO or Prime. 

Are these samples “old”? For sure. Does it matter? Not in my opinion, as they are beautifully recorded and offer flexibility a “recorded-in-a-hall” variant can never offer. 

Does “old” imply soon to be abandoned? I don’t think so; they are available in the shiny relatively new Synchron Player, which speaks for VSL’s ‘loyalty’ if you will. I fully expect these samples to be around for years to come. 

In terms of playability (I own volumes 1, 2, 4 and 5 and am likely to eventually add the rest) and usefulness, I expect to be having a lot of fun with these for a long time. One cannot hear “old”, see? Back when VSL recorded the players, they used very modern and highly sophisticated recording techniques. So in a lot of ways, in the sampling world the adjective “old” isn’t always necessarily of much relevance anyway.

So VSL Sy’d Special Editions are an excellent way for beginners to get their feet wet in orchestral “land” - especially with the future expandability. But keep in mind: only if dry samples work for you. 

2) Synchron Prime Edition. This is basically your all encompassing “entry level” orchestra. Recorded on a beautiful soundstage, so that is a main differentiator righ there when compared with 1) SE.

Also if you had plans to maybe expand in the future there is a fantastic upgrade path ahead towards Standard and Full Synchron Editions.

3) BBO, as the name suggests, focuses strongly on big bold tutti patches, larger ensembles, and stuff that works for composers who need to sketch something fast. So certain things are overlapping with the larger Synchron range (again, there are upgrade paths implied in those cases) but other things are unique too (Ganymede, Ymir, Zodiac to name but a few). So BBO libraries are definitely not geared towards those starting out in the orchestral world, with a wish to have “a complete orchestra” under the keys so to speak. They can either work as very good sounding ensemble patches, or as good “add ons” for people who want to get extra instruments or groups of instruments in their templates.

But yes, there is definitely going to be an overlap - at least literally between Synchron proper, Synchron Prime and BBO. 

It can definitely make sense to own both Special Editions and Prime / Synchron / BBO instruments. For people starting out, one of the most important questions is likely: do I want my samples dry (studio) or recorded with mic positions (Synchron).

I also concur with @Zanshin: Prime seems the best fit for you.


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## Zanshin (May 12, 2022)

@doctoremmet why didn't you yell down the hall to me that you were replying? You could have saved me some typing


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## HenryBerg (May 12, 2022)

Thx VERY MUCH to both, that's exactly what I needed.
I actually like the sound of say Synchz SE 1,1+, specially for chamber-Vivaldi-Mozart style, but as an overall orchestra the sound is... un-cohesive somehow IMO, mostly when compared to libs like BBC or CSS.

The BBO packages, on the other hand, sound very realistic with no effort, and while they're more designed for Bombastic, I believe one could build also a *regular* section Orchestra with Lyra+Musca plus the wood and brass packs. They all sound very good.

As the PRIME originates as well from the Synchron libraries, as the BBO do, I thought the Syn SE series was destined to fade into oblivion, as VSL updates his libraries to the sound of the Synchron Hall.
I'm glad to hear the old Synchronized SE series are still an option today, even when I read people saying to no longer use them anymore after buying BBC, for instance.

Thus my question, it appeared to me PRIME to be like VSL's version of Spitfire's BBC, and that it would replace VSL older SE 1-7 series.

So then DOES IT make sense to buyy SE Vol 1-1+ along with PRIME??


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## doctoremmet (May 12, 2022)

Well, I think it does. I have bought both Synchron Strings Pro, Brass and Woodwinds, Sy’d SE 1, 2 as well as the BBO bundle. And even got Prime too, with the intention to use that as my go-to on my laptop. 

So why not buy Prime first and eventually see whether or not you’d miss something?


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## doctoremmet (May 12, 2022)

HenryBerg said:


> even when I read people saying to no longer use them anymore after buying BBC, for instance


The thing is: these decisions are extremely personal in nature, and ultimately a matter of taste, workflow preferences, etc. I can also point you to a well known VI-C VSL user who has just decided to sell his Synchron stuff and go all-in with the VSL VI stuff for instance. Or to people who actually have real complaints about the BBCSO shorts etc.


----------



## HenryBerg (May 12, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> So why not buy Prime first and eventually see whether or not you’d miss something?


Well, yes, for a start I'd miss the solo strings and I want to (learn to) write for a quartet or septet, besides for a full orchestra. The SE Vol 1PLUS looks perfect for that and on top brings a great piano. But as an orchestra I prefer the sound of BBO and Prime, which is comparable to BBC (of which I know it's limited to 2-3 velocities, but so might the SEs?).

Looks you have to buy MANY libraries, each taylored to a specific style, number of players or sound approach. I just dont want to regret to get say SE vol1plus, to find out later I would no longer use it as I buy more libraries (VSL and other brands)


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## doctoremmet (May 12, 2022)

I do understand that last sentiment. And unfortunately you can ask as many people you’d like, and you’d get all kinds of answers, and still you’d be non-the-wiser. Because we aren’t you. 

The good thing about VSL: there is a 14 day return policy. So you can buy the SE’s you fancy and test them thoroughly. Don’t like them? Return them and get a refund. Try doing that with the competition


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## fakemaxwell (May 12, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Don’t like them? Return them and get a refund. Try doing that with the competition


Yeah I keep harping on this, but I would not have bought Prime on essentially a whim if there was no return policy. At this point we're just yelling into the void but other developers should take note.


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## RogiervG (May 12, 2022)

Geomir said:


> *Announcement: Whoever adds Marimba and Vibraphone to Sycnhron Prime Edition, I promise him a free tour to the Acropolis of Athens, Lycabettus Hill and Cape Sounion, just to name a few!*




On your expense i guess? (hotel - 5 stars, plane flight, rental car, lots of food and drinks, entry tickets.. )


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## doctoremmet (May 12, 2022)

They’re too busy pitching Excel sheets full of ever growing recurring revenue cash flows from soon-to-be-launched subscription models to some corporate M&A consultancy looking for new investors, to even notice you yelling mate


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## Geomir (May 12, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> On your expense i guess? (hotel - 5 stars, plane flight, rental car, lots of food and drinks, entry tickets.. )


Everything included!


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## BasariStudios (May 12, 2022)

I wonder if Ben is working on CowBell Glissandi for the Prime Edition.


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## Ben (May 12, 2022)

BasariStudios said:


> I wonder if Ben is working on CowBell Glissandi for the Prime Edition.


Deep sampled and on the edge of silence, of course...


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## ShidoStrife (May 12, 2022)

I didn't even realize there was no marimba in BBO Phoenix. The marimba in my template comes from another developer. Provided they're dry enough, it shouldn't be that hard to incorporate an extra instrument or two from another library to Prime, whilst waiting for Prime+ or prime vol 2, if they'll ever come.


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## RSK (May 13, 2022)

"On the Edge of Silence" is 1dB away from useless.


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## NeonMediaKJT (May 14, 2022)

Anyone made any demoes with prime??


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## NeonMediaKJT (May 16, 2022)

Ok, having some issue with the legato:
If I play a legato line and then stop and then start the next phrase on a new note, it'll have a weird transition at the start. If I play a legato line and then stop and start again on the same note, there will be no sustain at all. 

Is this a bug?


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## Ben (May 16, 2022)

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Ok, having some issue with the legato:
> If I play a legato line and then stop and then start the next phrase on a new note, it'll have a weird transition at the start. If I play a legato line and then stop and start again on the same note, there will be no sustain at all.
> 
> Is this a bug?


Sounds to me like hanging notes / missing MIDI Off. You can try to see in the Player's keyboard if one of the notes is still pressed.


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## Rudianos (May 16, 2022)

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Ok, having some issue with the legato:
> If I play a legato line and then stop and then start the next phrase on a new note, it'll have a weird transition at the start. If I play a legato line and then stop and start again on the same note, there will be no sustain at all.
> 
> Is this a bug?


Please post an audio example, MIDI too if you can. Tag Ben.


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## JohnS (May 19, 2022)

I've read this thread from the start up to this point hoping to get an answer, but its not there yet.

My question is about the RAM/CPU load between Prime and SY-ed SE 1/2+ for similar, realistically-full orchestral template. Which version would be kinder to my 16GB/i7 laptop? I assume, that the SE, for it only has one mic signal. Is that right?

Trying to choose my first (and only for at least 1-2 years) all-in-one orchestral library. I don't intend to invest much more in near future. Neither in HW nor in libs.


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## Rudianos (May 19, 2022)

JohnS said:


> I've read this thread from the start up to this point hoping to get an answer, but its not there yet.
> 
> My question is about the RAM/CPU load between Prime and SY-ed SE 1/2+ for similar, realistically-full orchestral template. Which version would be kinder to my 16GB/i7 laptop? I assume, that the SE, for it only has one mic signal. Is that right?
> 
> Trying to choose my first (and only for at least 1-2 years) all-in-one orchestral library. I don't intend to invest much more in near future. Neither in HW nor in libs.


I cannot speak for SE but you can always remove one of the mic signals for prime if needed. 

Prime
Take the 30-day trial and see if it works on your laptop it's free!


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## robgb (May 19, 2022)

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Ok, having some issue with the legato:
> If I play a legato line and then stop and then start the next phrase on a new note, it'll have a weird transition at the start. If I play a legato line and then stop and start again on the same note, there will be no sustain at all.
> 
> Is this a bug?


I've been playing with it for about a week now. I discovered this glitch almost immediately, but once I removed the plugin from the track and then opened it again the glitch was gone and has not returned in the several days I've been working with it. I've tried duplicating the glitch but can't.

I'm working on a review of the library this week.


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## JohnS (May 19, 2022)

Rudianos said:


> I cannot speak for SE but you can always remove one of the mic signals for prime if needed.
> 
> Prime
> Take the 30-day trial and see if it works on your laptop it's free!


Sure, download in progress, eval started , but:
a) I cannot compare it to Sy-ed SE (no trial available). The signals in both editions are different recordings
b) I'm yet to learn what it means "realistically-full orchestral template" (was hoping for forum's collective wisdom for that). I'm just starting my journey. 
c) In Prime I don't get IRs to apply to instruments, so using just one mic signal in Prime gives less flexibility than one mic+IR (balanced dry/wet) in Sy-ed SE


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## Rudianos (May 19, 2022)

Strings RAM is about 65 MB per mic signal. 2 per instrument ... Winds Percussion are 16 MB per signal. Should clock in under 2 GB for 20 instruments open.


1. Sy-ed can be returned within 14 days FYI 
2. Bigger Synchron Libraries have so many mics ... so many. If you are doing straight stereo orchestra stuff this is the way to go. As a wind player I can attest to the quality of the winds as being superb. The tone is fantastic.
3. The sound out of the box is quite pleasant as you will see. With the Dry signal you can at any point eventually apply any room verb 3rd party that you want to.

I have Berlin Orchestra and too many others. Tone of the winds is generally also better than the flagship Berlin. IMO Synchron Prime rules all of them ... and for this price they are the standard.


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## SomeGuy (May 19, 2022)

Anyone own prime but not the full synchron libraries able to comment on the upgrade discount? For example how much discount would one get off synchron woodwinds if they own prime?


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## gamma-ut (May 19, 2022)

SomeGuy said:


> Anyone own prime but not the full synchron libraries able to comment on the upgrade discount? For example how much discount would one get off synchron woodwinds if they own prime?


If you pop Prime into the basket, the VSL site will show you the discounted price for the related full Synchron libraries.

I'm pretty sure the Prime product page also shows the upgrade discounts though - or at least it did a week or two ago.


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## Trash Panda (May 19, 2022)

Been playing around with the demo license of the library for a few days. I think we have a new contender for best all in one orchestra. 

Personally, I need another one of these all-in-wonder libraries like a hole in the head, but between the sound quality, ease of use and the Synchron player, my resolve is being very strongly tested. 

The demo idea is smart too, because there was zero temptation prior to trying it out first hand.


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## Zanshin (May 19, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> Been playing around with the demo license of the library for a few days. I think we have a new contender for best all in one orchestra.
> 
> Personally, I need another one of these all-in-wonder libraries like a hole in the head, but between the sound quality, ease of use and the Synchron player, my resolve is being very strongly tested.
> 
> The demo idea is smart too, because there was zero temptation prior to trying it out first hand.


I thought you might like it, but didn't want to suggest it because you just bought the Arks recently haha. I feel like it's in the same arena as AI's offerings in terms of immediacy and agility.


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## CT (May 19, 2022)

Well, if we’re really going to talk about Synchron Prime Edition….

The strings, brass, and woodwinds have to represent some of the most bloodless, bored performances I’ve ever heard sampled. The legato transitions across the board may as well not exist; the same effect could have been achieved by scripting the sustain samples together. Perhaps this is an appealing feature for some who (understandably) dread poorly leveled/tuned interval samples in other libraries, but _my god_.

Short notes are ok in the brass. Elsewhere, again, just utter boredom in the sound. Get in, play short notes to be chopped super tightly, get out. 

There is approximately zero meaningful expression possible with the strings. Elite Strings sounds better in demos than Synchron Strings Pro so this wasn’t exactly a surprise to me. Generally, apart from some spots in the brass, crossfades are unobtrusive, so that’s something. What on earth was the 2nd trumpet directed to do with that vibrato character though? It’s just goofy.

The harp and percussion are ok. What can go wrong there, really? Samples are edited consistently, dynamic response is smooth. It’s nice that the player lets you control signal delays; good functionality for these instruments.

I was so pleasantly surprised by my experience of the organ versus the expectations I’d formed based on demos. And the free piano is gorgeous. I wanted to be convinced here. I can not fault VSL for the solidity of their software nor their policies. But to me, all that time and money spent in that beautiful stage in Vienna, and _this_ is what comes out… it's remarkable.


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## gamma-ut (May 19, 2022)

You're allowed to move the modwheel, y'know.


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## CT (May 19, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> You're allowed to move the modwheel, y'know.


It doesn't do much....


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## gamma-ut (May 19, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> It doesn't do much....


'K. Sounds legit.


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## CT (May 19, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> 'K. Sounds legit.


You're welcome to listen to these, all performed with considerable modwheel movement, and decide if you find them meaningfully expressive (note the "transitions" as well). The last excerpt has another library featured for comparison. Hope that's "legit" enough for you!

View attachment flute.mp3

View attachment oboe.mp3

View attachment violas.mp3


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## Aitcpiano (May 19, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> Well, if we’re really going to talk about Synchron Prime Edition….
> 
> The strings, brass, and woodwinds have to represent some of the most bloodless, bored performances I’ve ever heard sampled. The legato transitions across the board may as well not exist; the same effect could have been achieved by scripting the sustain samples together. Perhaps this is an appealing feature for some who (understandably) dread poorly leveled/tuned interval samples in other libraries, but _my god_.
> 
> ...


Yeah I agree regarding the legatos, especially in synchron woods first players. Brass is better. At times it does just sound like a sustain patch with minimal transition.


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## CT (May 19, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> Yeah I agree regarding the legatos, especially in synchron woods first players. Brass is better. At times it does just sound like a sustain patch with minimal transition.


Upper range of the trumpets, yes, they get better there! Also, I'd be remiss if I didn't praise how they implement actual natural-sounding "soft" releases on the strings. That makes life easier.


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## stevebye (May 19, 2022)

JohnS said:


> Sure, download in progress, eval started , but:
> a) I cannot compare it to Sy-ed SE (no trial available). The signals in both editions are different recordings
> b) I'm yet to learn what it means "realistically-full orchestral template" (was hoping for forum's collective wisdom for that). I'm just starting my journey.
> c) In Prime I don't get IRs to apply to instruments, so using just one mic signal in Prime gives less flexibility than one mic+IR (balanced dry/wet) in Sy-ed SE


I may be wrong, but I think Synchron is fundamentally different than their previous VSL “record it dry and add the room via convolution reverb using impulse responses of various halls.” The Synchron library is recorded the way Spitfire and most others is recorded, in a reverberant room using multiple sets of microphones. The room sound you want is determined by your mix of microphone channels. In Prime you get two, one a pre-baked mix of several mics, and a closer mix. If you don’t use one, you save memory. 

The old original VSL dry samples have been updated, “Synchronized,” by having the convolution reverb “baked in“ to the sample and it’s been revised to play in the new Synchron player. Or they can still be purchased to be used with MIR, their multiple input convolution reverb, and the old Vienna Suite Pro Player.

My guess is that, going forward, it’s all Synchron. The VI series and MIR/Vienna Suite Pro will not be added to.

This is all my conjecture. I havent seen it spelled out. But I think VIs and Vienna Suite Pro may sound great, but it would be investing in the past. if you already own it, it’s been a standard for years. 

The footprint for Prime is 90 GB or so, I’ve read. It is intentionally designed to be lightweight, used by starving music students, on laptops. Guy Mickrelmore said it is amazingly light on resources, but the VIs may also be.

I hope I haven’t put my foot in my mouth here. If my assumptions are wrong, correct me.


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## NoamL (May 19, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> You're welcome to listen to these, all performed with considerable modwheel movement, and decide if you find them meaningfully expressive (note the "transitions" as well). The last excerpt has another library featured for comparison. Hope that's "legit" enough for you!
> 
> View attachment flute.mp3
> 
> ...


Yeah that's not a great oboe. :\


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## Rudianos (May 19, 2022)

Here is a couple of attempts at coaxing some emotion out of the Synchron Prime Oboes. I tend to focus on the moments when it hits the nail on the head. Like any library it can struggle at times. Mostly can be addressed. So much music potential in these 

Music of the Night

Oboe 1

View attachment Primo Oboe 1.mp3


Oboe 2

View attachment Primo Oboe 2.mp3


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## halfaplanck (May 19, 2022)

Rudianos said:


> [...]
> Prime
> Take the 30-day trial and see if it works on your laptop it's free!


As silly as it might sound... How am I supposed to take such a 30-day trial? Is it buy-and-return-if-unhappy or there's a separate way to do that? I don't find the Vienna Assistant assisting much on this :/


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## dts_marin (May 19, 2022)

Will the demo be available in a few months? I want to try Prime but I don't want to mess with my eLicenser VEP until I transition to a newer M2/M3 rig.
(can't use iLock & eLIcenser at the same time IRRC)


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## Pixelpoet1985 (May 19, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> The legato transitions across the board may as well not exist; the same effect could have been achieved by scripting the sustain samples together.


I have no problem with the sustains, you always have to ride the modwheel with VSL. But the vibrato isn‘t flattering, e.g. of the flute. This sound scripted to me sometimes, very unnatural and exaggerated. And it‘s the same level on all dynamics.

I don‘t know what they‘ve done. It‘s not the “famous” legato they are known for. For me it sounds like in the first release of SYNCHRON-ized Woodwinds where they made legato-sustains with sustain crossfades. These totally destroyed the expressiveness. The original legatos with dedicated landing notes were added later back again. I have the feeling that this might be the same case here. They chose the “cheap“ way, but I don‘t know if this is really true. And if this is a cheaper way of doing legatos at all. But they changed something, that‘s we know.

Curious is that I also hear transitions more in the higher registers, and playing lower they seem to vanish. This is with all higher instruments, especially violins.


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## Rudianos (May 19, 2022)

halfaplanck said:


> As silly as it might sound... How am I supposed to take such a 30-day trial? Is it buy-and-return-if-unhappy or there's a separate way to do that? I don't find the Vienna Assistant assisting much on this :/


Talk to @Ben ... generally with returns you contact customer service on VSL site. I think with the Demo no money up front - 30 days up you pay or it becomes inactive.


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## Ben (May 19, 2022)

halfaplanck said:


> As silly as it might sound... How am I supposed to take such a 30-day trial? Is it buy-and-return-if-unhappy or there's a separate way to do that? I don't find the Vienna Assistant assisting much on this :/


Get it from the product page. After "purchasing" the free demo you can download it in the Vienna Assistant - just like a regular purchased library. If you decide to buy, you don't have to uninstall / reinstall anything - just activate the license.


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## Ben (May 19, 2022)

dts_marin said:


> Will the demo be available in a few months? I want to try Prime but I don't want to mess with my eLicenser VEP until I transition to a newer M2/M3 rig.
> (can't use iLock & eLIcenser at the same time IRRC)


I can't promise that. It will probably not be available as demo any time soon.


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## gamma-ut (May 19, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> You're welcome to listen to these, all performed with considerable modwheel movement, and decide if you find them meaningfully expressive (note the "transitions" as well).


Are you sure you're not using the Vel-only patches?

I knocked this up against SWAM3 using the VelFX mapped to CC#2 (and smoothed it out a bit, switching with keychanges in Synchron). Obviously the tone is way different and the VSL will come over as somewhat boxy but the expressive range should at least be similar overall.

View attachment VSL-SWAM Oboe.mp3


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## CT (May 19, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> Are you sure you're not using the Vel-only patches?


Yes. I set every patch up carefully before trying them, including making sure of that.


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 20, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> You're welcome to listen to these, all performed with considerable modwheel movement, and decide if you find them meaningfully expressive (note the "transitions" as well). The last excerpt has another library featured for comparison. Hope that's "legit" enough for you!
> 
> View attachment flute.mp3
> 
> ...


The string example sounds like a sustain patch, I'm not really hearing any true legato transitions.


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## handshaker (May 20, 2022)

Rudianos said:


> Here is a couple of attempts at coaxing some emotion out of the Synchron Prime Oboes. I tend to focus on the moments when it hits the nail on the head. Like any library it can struggle at times. Mostly can be addressed. So much music potential in these
> 
> Music of the Night
> 
> ...


Nice playing. What piano library are you using for these demos?


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## Rudianos (May 20, 2022)

handshaker said:


> Nice playing. What piano library are you using for these demos?


Thanks.... Vienna Imperial. The older dry version. Altiverb in there too.


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## handshaker (May 20, 2022)

Rudianos said:


> Thanks.... Vienna Imperial. The older dry version. Altiverb in there too.


Thanks - shame it's no longer available though, I guess the current one is a different set of samples?


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## Zanshin (May 20, 2022)

handshaker said:


> Thanks - shame it's no longer available though, I guess the current one is a different set of samples?


Uh they better bring it back, because I want it too.

I think it’s more a case of they had too much to do for the iLok conversion.


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## Ben (May 20, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> Uh they better bring it back, because I want it too.
> 
> I think it’s more a case of they had too much to do for the iLok conversion.


We are working on it!


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## handshaker (May 20, 2022)

Ben said:


> We are working on it!


Great, will keep my eyes peeled. 👍


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## smellypants (May 20, 2022)

Ben said:


> We are working on it!


Do you think Vienna Jazz Drums will likely make a return as well?


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## Ben (May 20, 2022)

smellypants said:


> Do you think Vienna Jazz Drums will likely make a return as well?


They never disappeared: https://www.vsl.co.at/Percussion_Complete/Vienna_Jazz_Drums


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## smellypants (May 20, 2022)

Ben said:


> They never disappeared: https://www.vsl.co.at/Percussion_Complete/Vienna_Jazz_Drums


Sorry I meant Synchronized... Want to keep it to one player if possible.


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## davidanthony (May 20, 2022)

Running up against a nasty issue on my laptop where Pro Tools crashes every time I try to open a project that has been saved with an instrument track that has a Synchron Player instance and a Prime library loaded. Still need to do more testing to figure exactly where the issue is, but it doesn't seem to happen when it's only the Synchron Player loaded, so I think the issue is with Prime. I tried a full uninstall and re-download/install of Prime and that didn't fix anything. 

Will try it on another machine in a few days but just a heads up to anyone with PT.


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## Ben (May 20, 2022)

smellypants said:


> Sorry I meant Synchronized... Want to keep it to one player if possible.


I hope they will - one day


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## Ben (May 20, 2022)

davidanthony said:


> Running up against a nasty issue on my laptop where Pro Tools crashes every time I try to open a project that has been saved with an instrument track that has a Synchron Player instance and a Prime library loaded. Still need to do more testing to figure exactly where the issue is, but it doesn't seem to happen when it's only the Synchron Player loaded, so I think the issue is with Prime. I tried a full uninstall and re-download/install of Prime and that didn't fix anything.
> 
> Will try it on another machine in a few days but just a heads up to anyone with PT.


Please contact our support: [email protected]


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## smellypants (May 20, 2022)

Ben said:


> I hope they will - one day


Or even Synchron Jazz Drums 😏


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## ChickenAndARoll (May 20, 2022)

smellypants said:


> Or even Synchron Jazz Drums 😏


Or even Synchron Jazz Orchestra 😏


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## stephane_f (May 20, 2022)

Strings example (with Prime of course): excerpt from James Horner's piece: The Ludlows (Legends of the Fall)

View attachment The Ludlows (Legends of the Fall).mp3


----------



## muziksculp (May 21, 2022)




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## Jeremy Spencer (May 21, 2022)

stephane_f said:


> Strings example (with Prime of course): excerpt from James Horner's piece: The Ludlows (Legends of the Fall)
> 
> View attachment The Ludlows (Legends of the Fall).mp3


Nice orchestration, but to me it sounds too synthetic.


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## muziksculp (May 21, 2022)

I like the way this demo sounds. Great composition, and techniques of using Synchron Player. Thanks VSL, Paul, and Guy Bacos.


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 21, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I like the way this demo sounds. Great composition, and techniques of using Synchron Player. Thanks VSL, Paul, and Guy Bacos.



Actually, the Guy Bacos demos are the only ones that sound convincing to me. It's odd how there aren't a lot of demos or posted original pieces around, with the exception of classical mockups.


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## Flyo (May 21, 2022)

I was testing the demo of Prime, for my surprise the Brass are the stand out of the whole package, rich and full. Then, String… a little synthetic at higher notes like others seems to perceive but at the same time sound consistent and very refined, and for me doesn’t sound as huge as others orchestral strings that you could have or expect. These sound more
controlled, smaller or focused. And at lastest level was the woods, I can’t feel the life in it… and also not having tutti ensambles for Woods it’s a big down side. This only section leave me wonder if the Pro WSynchron could get much more of these refined recordings, sound refined and consistent. Of course that’s was my felling comparing head to head to another’s full orchestras. Synchron Player? hands down the most practical player of all, everything it’s right there to manipulate without distracting from the flow of creation, besides, to my taste I would love to see an icon instrument image in the library selection menu for every section and library. My screen it’s big enough but with laptops could imply extra effort every time to select one section or another and reading every time it’s not so practical. VSL gives you a 30 days trail. Amazing. If I doesn’t have other expensive vst full orchestras I think I will go blinded for VSL Prime and then upgrade every section later on. Thanks


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## fan455 (May 21, 2022)

I tried the free demo too. Here're my impressions:

- Synchron player is so efficient to use. Ram usage is surprising low.
- Dynamic crossfade. Strings, brass and woodwinds have very smooth dynamic crossfading, no volume bump. It's what I love it most.
- Strings have a natural vibrato but no vibrato control is available.
- Harp sounds dreamy, but the dynamic isn't smooth to me. High notes are low in volume.
- Percussion sounds a bit weak. Suspended cymbals sound a bit thin and not resonant enough.
- I have mixed feel for the baked in synchron reverb. It glues all instruments together so well, but sometimes just overwhelming to me.

Thank you VSL so much for offering a free touch of the beautiful Synchron products!


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## fan455 (May 22, 2022)

A test here. Every instrument except harp comes from Synchron Prime Edition. No reverb addded. 

View attachment test15 vsl.mp3


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## maximuss (May 23, 2022)

I have tried the demo integrated with Sibelius but I cannot get the percussion to work. I have tried Tech support but they basically tell me to read the troubleshooting section. Is anybody else having trouble with percussion and Sibelius using Prime Edition?


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## Pianist (May 24, 2022)

@Ben 
Hi Ben,
I apologize if this has been answered before (but I could not find it anywhere): There is the introductory price on the Synchron Prime Edition till the 31th May. There are also a crossgrade prices for those owning some of the Synchron collections. Are the crossgrade prices also related to the introductory price (and thus change after the 31th May) or will they stay the same also after the introductory period?
Thanks.


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## Ben (May 24, 2022)

Pianist said:


> @Ben
> Hi Ben,
> I apologize if this has been answered before (but I could not find it anywhere): There is the introductory price on the Synchron Prime Edition till the 31th May. There are also a crossgrade prices for those owning some of the Synchron collections. Are the crossgrade prices also related to the introductory price (and thus change after the 31th May) or will they stay the same also after the introductory period?
> Thanks.


You will still get crossgrade dicounts, but they will not stay the same.


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## dcoscina (May 24, 2022)

I spent the weekend doing a video review of PRIME for FSMO and found it very good. I especially love the brass which are powerful. It's a terrific orchestra package IMO.


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## dcoscina (May 24, 2022)

I know this is the wrong thread but has anyone downloaded the Free Violin Runs? OMG, they are amazing. I love using the Locrian mode run to get my best Goldsmith Capricorn One on!


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## szczaw (May 24, 2022)

I rapid prototyped (no CCs) something with the demo. At first, I didn't like the sound and was hostile (wtf is this, no orchestrator ?), but I'm warming up to it, getting synchronized . Fortunately, it's not a financially ruinous library.

View attachment VSL Prime.mp3


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## Pianist (May 24, 2022)

Ben said:


> You will still get crossgrade dicounts, but they will not stay the same.


Thank you Ben for the info!


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## szczaw (May 28, 2022)

Made with cans, missing midi CCs (I'm waiting for faders).

View attachment VSL Prime 2.mp3


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## ptram (May 30, 2022)

One day left for the offer, and I've not yet decided if I want it. By owning all the main libraries, I could pay it very little, but that's not the issue. Here are the ones:

1. The fact I own the full libraries makes having these sounds not useful per se. I have better versions of them.

2. Saving space on my drives is always a great thing.

3. Mixing to achieve the sound would need the full library, since the Prime version lacks too many of the mics to be mixed in the same way. Also missing are several articulations.

4. There is an additional set of expression maps to deal with.

5. I use chamber-sized strings a lot, so I would in any case need some external bigger library.

On the other side, I'm thinking that starting making the sound with Prime, before going on with the actual mix, could make sense.

1. Start composing with NotePerformer.

2. Switch to the VSL libraries to start working with the actual sounds, and do the first pass with the limited set of articulations and the standard mics (but then, why not just doing it with the full libraries?).

3. Only at the end of the composition phase, switch to the major libraries.

I just don't know if it would really make sense. All considered, I'm hoping to stay inside NotePerformer for as long as possible, due to the trouble-free experience.

Paolo


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## handshaker (May 30, 2022)

I did a quick composition with Prime, and Pianotec piano here, just to help decide if I like it. 
I think it's very useful as a sketching tool.


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## Zanshin (May 30, 2022)

ptram said:


> One day left for the offer, and I've not yet decided if I want it. By owning all the main libraries, I could pay it very little, but that's not the issue. Here are the ones:
> 
> 1. The fact I own the full libraries makes having these sounds not useful per se. I have better versions of them.
> 
> ...


Yeah I don't think it makes sense for me either. The only case I think would be for a laptop 2nd machine for traveling or whatever. If that situation becomes important, then I will definitely consider picking it up


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## gamma-ut (May 30, 2022)

ptram said:


> 2. Switch to the VSL libraries to start working with the actual sounds, and do the first pass with the limited set of articulations and the standard mics (but then, why not just doing it with the full libraries?).


If you were travelling a lot and wanted a library on a laptop's internal drive, Prime would make sense. But given the level of customisability with Synchron or VIP to make lighter patches with the regular libraries (if you were concerned about memory usage etc), it's a bit more legwork but entirely possible with those full libraries.


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## dcoscina (May 30, 2022)

It’s a great sketching library for sure. Very light on the CPU and memory. I think it only take 10gb of ram fully loaded with all instruments


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## ptram (May 30, 2022)

An intermediate way to have a light version of the Synchron libraries, even without Prime: just install the RoomMix and Close or Mid mics, and you get the same mic configuration as Prime. Only, you will have all the articulations, and will be able to use the same custom presets and expression maps!

Paolo


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## muziksculp (May 30, 2022)

The primary reason I got the Prime Edition is to be able to use it on a laptop when needed. Given the low resource requirements for this library. Although I don't even have a laptop for the time being, and I have no idea if I will want to compose when I'm traveling.


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## Geomir (May 30, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> The primary reason I got the Prime Edition is to be able to use it on a laptop when needed





muziksculp said:


> I don't even have a laptop for the time being


By far the strongest GAS post of the decade!


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## tritonely (May 30, 2022)

Users of Prime: do you experience that you'll always need a combination of close/mid and room because only room (decca + side) is too wet? Or do you think the room mix is enough (except maybe an important soloists line where you dial in the close mic)? I like the laptop friendly approach of Prime and that you will get two mic positions, but I'm a little hesitant to always have to put two mic positions on (=doubling the voices). Would like to hear your experience!


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## ptram (May 30, 2022)

tritonely said:


> do you experience that you'll always need a combination of close/mid and room because only room (decca + side) is too wet?


That's the beauty of the idea behind Prime: you get the wet sound, but also the detail of the closer mics!

Paolo


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## szczaw (May 30, 2022)

I was not interested, but grabbed the demo anyway, and ended up buying it yesterday. This is how sample library purchases ought to work. Especially when something costs a nice chunk of cash.


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## John R Wilson (May 30, 2022)

tritonely said:


> Users of Prime: do you experience that you'll always need a combination of close/mid and room because only room (decca + side) is too wet? Or do you think the room mix is enough (except maybe an important soloists line where you dial in the close mic)? I like the laptop friendly approach of Prime and that you will get two mic positions, but I'm a little hesitant to always have to put two mic positions on (=doubling the voices). Would like to hear your experience!


Having the two mic positions is what is really nice about the prime edition. I have not ran lots of tracks using synchron prime edition yet but it seems very low on system resource's while using both mics.


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## John R Wilson (May 30, 2022)

I really like this library. It's going to probably be the library I use in Sibelius and Dorico, alongside Noteperformer. I have been using just Noteperformer which does work well and is sufficient enough, however, noteperformer does not work well for live playing on the piano or sound good when using it like this. So having some nicer sounds and playability from synchron prime edition while in sibelius and dorico will be quite nice for sketching out and coming up with ideas on the piano before notating. Probably will still make use of noteperformer for some better idea of phrasing/articulations and balance though.


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## handshaker (May 31, 2022)

John R Wilson said:


> I really like this library. It's going to probably be the library I use in Sibelius and Dorico, alongside Noteperformer. I have been using just Noteperformer which does work well and is sufficient enough, however, noteperformer does not work well for live playing on the piano or sound good when using it like this. So having some nicer sounds and playability from synchron prime edition while in sibelius and dorico will be quite nice for sketching out and coming up with ideas on the piano before notating. Probably will still make use of noteperformer for some better idea of phrasing/articulations and balance though.


So that's what you've been up to. Been waiting for you all day to reply to my urgent message to get your Synchron strings😒


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## muziksculp (May 31, 2022)




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## JohnS (May 31, 2022)

I've downloaded the demo and was quickly disappointed. Did not imagine that any commercial library might be so inconsistent, even in short tests. Can anyone explain what happened to some notes?:

- Bass Clarinet: A3/A#3/B3 (significantly muted Close signal)
- Oboe1/Long notes: D#5-F5 (super strong Close signal)
- Oboe2/Long notes: D#5-F5 (fluctuating Close signal)
- Violoncellos/Long notes/Normal attack: C2-D#2 (faster note attack), E2-F#2 (slower note attack)


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## muziksculp (Jun 6, 2022)




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## Craig Allen (Jun 8, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> Well, if we’re really going to talk about Synchron Prime Edition….
> 
> The strings, brass, and woodwinds have to represent some of the most bloodless, bored performances I’ve ever heard sampled. The legato transitions across the board may as well not exist; the same effect could have been achieved by scripting the sustain samples together. Perhaps this is an appealing feature for some who (understandably) dread poorly leveled/tuned interval samples in other libraries, but _my god_.
> 
> ...


Wow, that's so harsh. 
I guess I'm wondering two things: 1. What is your frame of reference? 2. Are you using any expression controllers (faders, mod wheel, etc.) to take advantage of all of the Synchron controls?
I wonder if your ears were having a bad day.


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## Ben (Jun 8, 2022)

Craig Allen said:


> I wonder if your ears were having a bad day.


No, he already told everyone in almost every thread there is how much he dislikes our style of sampling. And at this point I don't bother, but I ask myself why he can't just move on. It's clear that it's just not what he is looking for, and probably never will be. 

Anyways, I have heard how this library can sound, and for my part I'm convinced it's really good.
But that's the great thing: you don't have to believe me, just go to the website, get the free 30 days demo and check it out yourself! 
Depending on what library you are currently using, you might need a short while to get used to the programming. The samples do exactly what you tell them to do, and if you have any questions our support team, the community here or myself are happy to help!


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## Spid (Jun 8, 2022)

Haters are gonna hate… as mentioned, we’re all free to no like something, and not finding it to our taste. But the best thing to do is not to dwell on it and just move on and use something else, not spend our money on the company we don’t like and spend it on companies we like. This is exactly what the free market is meant to. It’s true for sample libraries or anything we can purchase. Maybe my ears suck, but I like what I’m hearing from VSL…

In the past I’ve done A/B/X tests in studio to compare mics, Pres, converters, you name it… and all I learn is that:
1) we don’t all have the same hearing, some people can hear things we don’t
2) but we also don’t have an hearing as good as we think we do
3) brain could be tricky and we can have feeling we hear differences even where there’s none
4) real blind tests can’t lie, and if we end up with a 50% chance to find the right choice, it means it’s no better than just randomly pick a side without even listening to them.

Long story short: sometimes we can be blessed to not hear everything and just enjoy what we have. If others can hear stuff we can’t… why bother? So be it… it’s up to them to move on and find something else. And sometimes, others are just haters and they’re often gone as soon as we put them to a real A/B/X test because they’re full of crap and they know they can’t hear as much as they pretend to. So it’s always good to not engage much with them online. There’s no point and it will lead to nothing constructive anyway.


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## Rob (Jun 8, 2022)

I'm a strong VSL supporter, but this doesn't make JohnS observations false... if those problems are indeed there, probably made worse by the sampling at minor thirds, so that the problem in a sample gets carried over two more semitones, I hope the VSL team will fix them, exactly because the company is known for its reliability and seriousness.


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## Ben (Jun 8, 2022)

Rob said:


> I'm a strong VSL supporter, but this doesn't make JohnS observations false... if those problems are indeed there, probably made worse by the sampling at minor thirds, so that the problem in a sample gets carried over two more semitones, I hope the VSL team will fix them, exactly because the company is known for its reliability and seriousness.


Please send such reports to [email protected]
These days I'm more involved in our IT, so I can't always check out these things myself in time.
My colleagues in support will check such reports asap and forward them to our editing team, so we can release a library update.


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## holywilly (Jun 8, 2022)

Ben said:


> These days I'm more involved in our IT, so I can't always check out these things myself in time.


I’ll miss you, Ben!


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## Ben (Jun 8, 2022)

holywilly said:


> I’ll miss you, Ben!


No worries, I'm not going to disappear. I just have to prioritize things differently and can't always offer an answer within 12h 
But I'm really happy that I can communicate with all the users here in the community, and I want to keep it this way.


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## JohnS (Jun 8, 2022)

Rob said:


> I'm a strong VSL supporter, but this doesn't make JohnS observations false... if those problems are indeed there, probably made worse by the sampling at minor thirds, so that the problem in a sample gets carried over two more semitones, I hope the VSL team will fix them, exactly because the company is known for its reliability and seriousness.


What is baffling is that nobody cared either to confirm or to undermine my observations. Instead, the longest comments being non-substantive clichés of a kind "haters gonna hate". Inexperienced as I am, I can only quickly draw one of the two conclusions:

a) Something went wrong with the QA process when producing this otherwise interesting library, if developer, surely understanding that for prospective buyers its the best entry into their ecosystem, still issued it with such evident errors. Manually playing just the first couple of notes in default cellos preset or automatic verification of signal levels consistence is not beyond large developer possibilities.

b) The entry price is designed for beta-testers (which might be common for the industry or not, I can't tell). Not yet being the customer, I'm not going to engage into this process with the VSL support. I'd rather check another vendor - Steinberg and their Iconica, also available as 30-days trial.

Anyway thanks VSL for the possibility to check the product before buy. I'd definitely want to try it once again, when updates are ready. Or other products, like Synchron-ized SEs.


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## Ben (Jun 8, 2022)

JohnS said:


> What is baffling is that nobody cared either to confirm or to undermine my observations. Instead, the longest comments being non-substantive clichés of a kind "haters gonna hate". Inexperienced as I am, I can only quickly draw one of the two conclusions:
> 
> a) Something went wrong with the QA process when producing this otherwise interesting library, if developer, surely understanding that for prospective buyers its the best entry into their ecosystem, still issued it with such evident errors. Manually playing just the first couple of notes in default cellos preset or automatic verification of signal levels consistence is not beyond large developer possibilities.
> 
> ...


Have you tried to get in touch with our support via email? [email protected]
I'm sure they will verify and forward your findings to our editing.
Of course we did QA this library, but it's a huge library and sometimes issues make it into the release, even with careful QAing.
And no, of course our entry price is not a public beta test, it never was.



JohnS said:


> Instead, the longest comments being non-substantive clichés of a kind "haters gonna hate".


This was not a response to your comment, but some comments that are now in drama zone.


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## CT (Jun 8, 2022)

JohnS said:


> What is baffling is that nobody cared either to confirm or to undermine my observations. Instead, the longest comments being non-substantive clichés of a kind "haters gonna hate".


Hey don't worry, I think that was directed at me and my bad ears that pretend to hear more than they do, though some posts were moved so it's not clear exactly what was going on in this discussion over the last hour or so. You can always see the latest developments in the drama zone, including my most recent, and permanent, forum-resignation!


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## Beat Kaufmann (Jun 8, 2022)

tritonely said:


> ... but I'm a little hesitant to always have to put two mic positions on (=doubling the voices). Would like to hear your experience!


The theory of doubling the sound does not apply here, as you imagine.
With the close and the room microphone signal you can set any distance in which room depth the corresponding instrument should play - depending on the "ratio room<>close". It never sounds like two instruments are playing.

With the many presets the positions of the instruments are set up, if you select the preset "Default", you can set up almost any position on the virtual stage yourself by means of panning and the ratio room/close.
Beat


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## szczaw (Jun 8, 2022)

The close mic problems shouldn't be there, but it's only an issue if you crank up the volume of the close mic. With mostly room mix, I don't notice anything.


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## JohnS (Jun 8, 2022)

Ben said:


> Have you tried to get in touch with our support via email? [email protected]
> I'm sure they will verify and forward your findings to our editing.


@Ben,
Thanks for the reply.
I'm sorry, but the above reply only confirms my both concerns. Now it does seem that this is exactly the QA process by design: "Issue what's ready for FCS date and wait for customer input".

Please understand, that my observations are not any corner cases and they've been revealed during one-evening session of a newbie. For me it's a sign, that quality hasn't been double checked. I could send my comments to VSL support, but that is not the point.

Imagine you enter a fancy restaurant and you notice that one of the forks you get is dirty. Would you ask the waiter for replacement or would you rather change venue? I guess it depends on how hungry you'd be, right? Apparently I'm not that much hungry. And lots of other newbies might be cautious as well. Paradoxically, what might be acceptable for determined professionals (push the support to get the problem solved) might be just off-putting for newcomers. Prime Edition is supposed to be a showcase of the company, the whole series of products. As an enticer, it should be treated with special attention. 

@All 
I'm not trying to imply the value of other VSL products, because I don't know them. Just pointing to some issues in first issue of Synchron Prime Edition, that luckily anyone can download and check for themselves and judge if for her/him it's only a minor issue or a major problem.


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## tritonely (Jun 8, 2022)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> The theory of doubling the sound does not apply here, as you imagine.
> With the close and the room microphone signal you can set any distance in which room depth the corresponding instrument should play - depending on the "ratio room<>close". It never sounds like two instruments are playing.
> 
> With the many presets the positions of the instruments are set up, if you select the preset "Default", you can set up almost any position on the virtual stage yourself by means of panning and the ratio room/close.
> Beat


Thanks for the reaction and I totally agree and understand it's a benefit to have the two mic positions which you can use for controlling the placement in the room, and _not_ about hearing double the amount of instruments at the same time. 






But my worry of 'doubling the voices' is only based around the technical requirements of the computer where it would take around double the amount of CPU because each instrument will be processed twice (for close and room). Of course, if you have a professional music production computer you wouldn't doubt about two mics at the same time, but I think this Prime is also marketed at a user like me with a mediocre music production computer. With 30+ instruments playing, it can be quite the difference for CPU and RAM if I would use both mic positions with every instrument instead of one. That's why I like the approach of a full mix mic position like in BBCSO and Berlin Orchestra where close, trees and others are combined. Therefore my question how users perceive the room-mix. Do they feel each instrument would always need a combination of close and room-mix because the room-mix is too wet on it's own? Or could they work with 20 instruments on only room-mix and a few soloists with extra close mic?
I'm happy VSL is now giving the option for a 30 day demo to experience this.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Jun 8, 2022)

tritonely said:


> .... Or could they work with 20 instruments on only room-mix and a few soloists with extra close mic?
> I'm happy VSL is now giving the option for a 30 day demo to experience this.


Such things - as you fear - only you can try out on your own system. 
No OK from outside will help.


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## ShidoStrife (Jun 8, 2022)

tritonely said:


> Thanks for the reaction and I totally agree and understand it's a benefit to have the two mic positions which you can use for controlling the placement in the room, and _not_ about hearing double the amount of instruments at the same time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not an expert, but IMHO the room-mix still sounds very good on its own, but it does lack definition without the close mic.
I'm on a limited system myself, and I prefer to freeze finished parts instead of compromising the mic positions.


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## muziksculp (Jun 9, 2022)




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## muziksculp (Jun 14, 2022)




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## muziksculp (Jun 23, 2022)

This is my favorite piece for Elgar, I initially thought it is using Synchron Prime, but it isn't. But I will leave it here for your enjoyment anyways.


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## muziksculp (Jun 27, 2022)




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## Denkii (Oct 7, 2022)

I have a question and it might have been answered already but I cannot find it. Sorry in advance.

Is the mix mic for each section in Prime Edition the same mix mic that is used in the standard and/or full versions for each section?
Specifically:
- Is the synchron strings pro mix mic the exact same mix mic for the strings in prime edition?
- What about Synchron Elite Strings? If you add Synchron Elite Strings and try to use it with Prime Edition, are their mix mics the same?


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## Beat Kaufmann (Oct 7, 2022)

Denkii said:


> I have a question and it might have been answered already but I cannot find it. Sorry in advance.
> 
> Is the mix mic for each section in Prime Edition the same mix mic that is used in the standard and/or full versions for each section?
> Specifically:
> - Is the synchron strings pro mix mic the exact same mix mic for the strings in prime edition?


Below you can make out the differences with the two images of the mixers.
However: I use the close mic relatively rarely, I prefer to layer a solo violin (unison). And with the Synchron Strings Pro version, the difference between room and main is not so great.
Basically, however, I can say that the string sound in the Prime Edition is some kind of microphone mix that you don't have yet - at least with the stereo version of StringsPro and Elite. However, I do not particularly like it but that is probably a matter of taste.
The overall sound that you can produce with the Prime Edition is great, especially if it should go in the direction of bombastic.

By the way: Almost all instruments can be mixed with two settings in the Prime Edition.
Room + Mid / Room + Close


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## Denkii (Oct 7, 2022)

Thanks for the response.
I find your answer a bit hard to understand but I believe this is the part that I was looking for:


Beat Kaufmann said:


> I can say that the string sound in the Prime Edition is some kind of microphone mix that you don't have yet - at least with the stereo version of StringsPro and Elite.


In others words: No, the mix mic for prime is not the same mix mic for synchron strings pro and/or elite.

That's unfortunate.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Oct 7, 2022)

Denkii said:


> ...
> - What about Synchron Elite Strings? If you add Synchron Elite Strings and try to use it with Prime Edition, are their mix mics the same?


The string positions on stage coincide as long as you use the coincident presets from VSL. 2x "Classic" or 2 x "Close" or... In principle, however, you can also choose your own positions with all libraries.

See "Mixing within the Synchron-Player


----------------------------------------------
*Libraries together?*
In many cases, duplicating string libraries is a good idea. In most cases smaller library irregularities balance each other out a bit. e.g. Elite with Solo, StringsPro with Elite, ...

See "Layering (String-)Libraries"


Or also...


-----------------------------------------------
By using the "default preset" in each case, you are completely free in terms of sound and position...
also with the Prime Edition.


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## Denkii (Oct 7, 2022)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> The string positions on stage coincide as long as you use the coincident presets from VSL. 2x "Classic" or 2 x "Close" or... In principle, however, you can also choose your own positions with all libraries.


You have a way of speaking in riddles.
In your first post, you said the signal doesn't really match. Here you say the positions coincide...which...either has nothing to do with my original question or contradicts your first post.

Let me ask differently:
Does the mix mic for the strings in Prime equal the same mix mic for synchron strings pro and elite strings.
As in: are they mixed with the same amount of seperate mics that, yes i understand, you only get individual access to when you have the standard or full versions.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Oct 7, 2022)

Denkii said:


> ...That's unfortunate.


Why? 
A little bit of different signals enriches the sound. It is not absolutely necessary for a mixed string sound to have *exactly* the same simulated sound at *exactly* the same distance - on the contrary. 
Of course, left in one library must not be right in another.

Beat


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## Beat Kaufmann (Oct 7, 2022)

Denkii said:


> You have a way of speaking in riddles.
> In your first post, you said the signal doesn't really match. Here you say the positions coincide...which...either has nothing to do with my original question or contradicts your first post.
> 
> Let me ask differently:
> ...


I think you are making some kind of thinking error.

Basically, the big string libraries are recorded with different microphones at different distances.

*Close / Mid / Room / Decca Tree.*
If you listen *to close* and *mid unprocessed*, they sound like the words suggest - but not right or left, but stereo from right to left.

If you listen *to room* (stereo) and* main* (stereo Decca), the strings sound relatively far away and positioned from left to right, just as they were sitting in the synchron hall while recording the samples.

*Now study the picture of the Prime Edition Mixer (once more below).*
With the two microphones Mid (stereo) and Room you can set whether the strings should sound more distant (more Room microphone) or whether they should sound closer. Then you set the Mid microphone (stereo) louder than the Room microphones.
Since the mid-microphone signal is stereo but neither left nor right, the panner is now used. You can see that it tends to the left for the 1st Violin and is compressed in the stereo width. Consequently, this means that the strings can be positioned relatively close (from right to left) with the mid-microphones of each instrument.
If you mix in the room mics now, the strings seem to move back a bit because of the "more room-sound". So you can adjust virtually any position (depth) on the stage by the ratio mid <> room. As mentioned the presets from VSL cover each other as far as positions go (Presets in all Libraries are: CLASSIC; CLOSE, . The panner within the Mid-Channel sets the left to the right information.

I really recommend you take the time to watch this video for some minutes. It shows the play with the different microphones and what happens when you mix them together.



*So once more*
You can use either Presets of VSL to use diefferent String Libraries with the Prime Edition
Or you can addapt the Instruments and their positions by fiddeling around with different microphone combinations together with the panners. The video above will clear up (your) the riddles.

Beat


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## Denkii (Oct 7, 2022)

I appreciate how much you are trying but I think we are not having the same conversation.
You focus too much on individual mics that are not part of Prime and I understand what you are saying.

My point however is: Prime consists of samples from other Synchron libraries and Prime has a Room-Mix. This room mix (and I could be wrong here!!!!) is a sum of different mic signals that the big libraries were recorded with (I assume it's not a set of mics that were put all over the room and is indeed a sum of certain other mics).
My question is: Is the room-mix in prime the exact same room-mix from the bigger libraries or do they differ from each other?

Another, maybe easier example to ask my question: Prime consists of samples from other synchron libraries. Say I use only the Prime room mix for the celli legato and then I compare that to ONLY the room-mix from Synchron Strings Pro Standard library celli legato -> Will this sound exactly the same, provided I use the same mixer preset for both?
The same question applies to any other instrument and articulation that is in prime and their equivalent "big" library counterparts.

Because, yes, I find that quite important when looking down the upgrade path and wanting to know how well each upgraded full library's room mix will blend with prime's room-mix.

When it comes to Synchron Elite strings, I do understand that nothing of it is in Prime. Yet it is important to know how well Elite will blend with Prime if you only use the room mix so it would be interesting to know if Elite's room-mix has been summed the exact same as Synchron Strings Pro's room-mix (provided the microphone positions stayed the same at the time of recording Elite Strings, which I don't know).

The same question could be asked when comparing the bigger libraries "Standard" vs "Full" versions by the way.
Ideally: If we are talking about anyhting in Prime, it's room mix should be the exact same as the room mix for the equivalent bigger "standard" library **AND** the equivalent bigger "full" library.
Whereas the only difference for any samples in Prime, a standard and a full library should be, that they each give you access to more individual mics but this should NOT have an impact on the room-mix!

...This should make more sense now. If not, I'll give up.


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## Ben (Oct 7, 2022)

If I'm not mistaken the RoomMix channel in Prime is the same as in the Synchron libraries.
The RoomMix is a mix of the room mics of the Full Library.


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## Denkii (Oct 7, 2022)

Ben said:


> If I'm not mistaken the RoomMix channel in Prime is the same as in the Synchron libraries.
> The RoomMix is a mix of the room mics of the Full Library.


This answer is what I was looking for both in conciseness and the result.


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## paulmatthew (Oct 7, 2022)

The classic mix and wide mix sound the same to me in Synchron Strings Pro, Prime and Elite. Of course Elite has a different tone due to it's size but those 2 mic mixes sound like the tails end at the same time in the same room. VSL also offers a 14 day return policy. You can always buy it and try it out , return if you don't like how it blends together.


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## Denkii (Oct 7, 2022)

paulmatthew said:


> The classic mix and wide mix sound the same to me in Synchron Strings Pro, Prime and Elite. Of course Elite has a different tone due to it's size but those 2 mic mixes sound like the tails end at the same time in the same room.


Very helpful. Thanks a lot!

Yeah I am pondering over getting into VSL.
I cannot handle another player any more from a library that I used as the core for my conventionally sampled orchestra.
I recently got a demo license for Prime and I'm enjoying it a lot! So I am just getting together some information in case I actually want to dive into this rabbithole.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Oct 7, 2022)

Denkii said:


> My question is: Is the room-mix in prime the exact same room-mix in the bigger libraries or do they differ from each other.


Exatly... (your hope and wish?)
No, it isn't. The room mix in the Prime Edition is some kind of mix of the surround mics, the high mics, and the actual room mics. If you want to know exactly to the dB ratios, you have to ask the VSL support. Nevertheless, it sounds very similar to the space perceived in the big libraries (just SYNCHRON STAGE).


Denkii said:


> Another, maybe easier example to ask my question: Prime consists of samples from other synchron libraries. Say I use only the Prime room mix for the celli legato and then I compare that to ONLY the room-mix from Synchron Strings Pro Standard library celli legato -> Will this sound exactly the same, provided I use the same mixer preset for both?


Exatly... No, it sounds somehow cheaper and a more discolored - concerning the sound of the cello + the other room sound as mentioned above.



Denkii said:


> The same question applies to any other instrument and articulation that is in prime and their equivalent "big" library counterparts.


It's a reduced library, but a complete one with all instruments - less articulations, some new reduced compilation with less possibilities. The mixing possibilities by reducing / combining microphone signals does not give the EXACT same sounds. It is a reduced library, but with many instruments. These have fewer articulations. As I have noticed so far, all the instruments sound slightly different from those in the big libraries. The sound seems a little less resolved. It's a little less noticeable with the woodwinds and brass instruments than with the strings. It is also more noticeable with solo instruments.


Denkii said:


> The same question could be asked when comparing the bigger libraries "Standard" vs "Full" versions by the way.


Standard = Library in Stereo / Full = absolut same stereo samples + Surround + 3D samples


Denkii said:


> Ideally: If we are talking about anyhting in Prime, it's room mix should be the exact same as the room mix for the equivalent bigger "standard" library **AND** the equivalent bigger "full" library.


 As mentioned above, the room sound and the sound of the individual instruments is not quite the same as in the big libraries. It is something newly assembled and reduced. I can also imagine that instruments are only sampled in whole tone steps (instead of semitone) and possibly reduced a little in their layers. Otherwise you don't get the reduced data values for a whole orchestra. In addition, for the small price, you can't expect everything to be exactly the same as in the big libraries. We would all be stupid to buy these.

I personally use the percussion of the Prime Edition, because I don't own the big versions. Especially with the percussion samples relatively much space (room mic) is required for a "far away sound". Even if there is only the one space part (which for sure does not correspond to that of the big libraries as well), it all fits well with the rest - SYNCHRON stage it is anyway. 

Again, the Prime Edition can be made to match all the other Vienna libraries very well. Although the Prime Edition obviously draws its instruments from other libraries, it has a distinct sonic character. If you create an extensive piece with it, you will get the great VSL sound. With smaller ensembles and formations, you can hear the somewhat inferior quality of the samples better. With smaller ensembles everything seems to sound a bit "thinner" and less resolved than with the standard and full versions. So far my observations...



Denkii said:


> Whereas the only difference for any samples in Prime, a standard and a full library should be, that they each give you access to more individual mics but this should NOT have an impact on the room-mix!


...this should be so for you - but unfortunately this is not so. 

Beat


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## liquidlino (Oct 7, 2022)

Denkii said:


> Very helpful. Thanks a lot!
> 
> Yeah I am pondering over getting into VSL.
> I cannot handle another player any more from a library that I used as the core for my conventionally sampled orchestra.
> I recently got a demo license for Prime and I'm enjoying it a lot! So I am just getting together some information in case I actually want to dive into this rabbithole.


I did the same thing - did the Prime demo. I wasn't overly impressed with Prime, but I liked the tone and clarity of the room and recordings... so I took the gamble and bought SSP. It's leagues better than Prime, both having the additional mics, and more importantly the range of shorts and longs, and much better legatos. I felt legatos were non existant in Prime, just felt like scripted, but they're much better in the SSP library. I only bought standard so far, not full. however I recently got two BBO percussion libraries that have all the mics, and have to say, they make all the difference for the percussion, tons of extra width and dimension.


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## paulmatthew (Oct 7, 2022)

Denkii said:


> Very helpful. Thanks a lot!
> 
> Yeah I am pondering over getting into VSL.
> I cannot handle another player any more from a library that I used as the core for my conventionally sampled orchestra.
> I recently got a demo license for Prime and I'm enjoying it a lot! So I am just getting together some information in case I actually want to dive into this rabbithole.


You might want to start with Prime or the Big Bang Orchestra. I think BBO will give you a better taste of what the full versions will sound like and there are crossgrade prices available from certain BBO packs derived from the standard counterparts.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Oct 7, 2022)

Hi Denkii
Here are a few legato room-mid comparisons from both libraries. The audio examples are volume compensated (same Prime and Pro examples).


https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/Pro_Prime_Compare_Room_Mic.zip (36 MB)
That's all I can do for you.

As I said: the same and yet not quite - but in the end everything sounds like SYNCHRON Stage.


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## Denkii (Oct 7, 2022)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> Hi Denkii
> Here are a few legato room-mid comparisons from both libraries. The audio examples are volume compensated (same Prime and Pro examples).
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you so much, this is SUPER helpful.


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## liquidlino (Oct 7, 2022)

paulmatthew said:


> You might want to start with Prime or the Big Bang Orchestra. I think BBO will give you a better taste of what the standard versions will sound like and there are crossgrade prices available from certain BBO packs derived from the standard counterparts.


Not sure why they say they're from the "standard" libraries. The BBOs contain mics from the "Full" libraries too - surround, surround-high etc.


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## paulmatthew (Oct 7, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Not sure why they say they're from the "standard" libraries. The BBOs contain mics from the "Full" libraries too - surround, surround-high etc.


indeed, edited my response.


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## Petrucci (Oct 7, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Not sure why they say they're from the "standard" libraries. The BBOs contain mics from the "Full" libraries too - surround, surround-high etc.


Yep, BBO offers less articulations, but All the mics are in there - like in Full libraries. I also have to add that for me Surround To Stereo Mixpresets have so much more room information (especially good for Brass, Strings, Percussion), that I get Full libs all the time when I can. But in Standard libs Room Mix channel really is a helper, I think.


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## quietmind (Nov 12, 2022)

Ben said:


> All our paid products DO NOT support machine activation. But you can use an physical iLok USB key OR the iLok Cloud (including Synchron Prime Edition).
> 
> All free products run on machine actiavtion or physical iLok, but not in the iLok Cloud.


I have a related question if anyone can answer. 

How portable is my ability to use a physical iLok USB key? 

Could I use my Prime Edition with my VSL license stored on a physical iLok key that is plugged into my wife's computer, if her computer is simultaneously enabling her iLok Cloud licenses?


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## Ben (Nov 12, 2022)

quietmind said:


> Could I use my Prime Edition with my VSL license stored on a physical iLok key that is plugged into my wife's computer, if her computer is simultaneously enabling her iLok Cloud licenses?


Yes.


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## ennbr (Nov 12, 2022)

quietmind said:


> Could I use my Prime Edition with my VSL license stored on a physical iLok key that is plugged into my wife's computer, if her computer is simultaneously enabling her iLok Cloud licenses?


Or you could just give it a try


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