# Writing For Woodwinds



## ryanstrong (Aug 28, 2012)

Just purchased Berlin Woodwinds, BEAUTIFUL library. After playing with it I realized I really do not know how to write specifically for woodwinds in a orchestral context.

Any resources to aid with this?


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 28, 2012)

rystro @ Tue Aug 28 said:


> Just purchased Berlin Woodwinds, BEAUTIFUL library. After playing with it I realized I really do not know how to write specifically for woodwinds in a orchestral context.
> 
> Any resources to aid with this?



Ravel's "Daphnis et Chloe".


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## devastat (Aug 28, 2012)

Prokofiev's Peter and the Wolf.


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## rgames (Aug 28, 2012)

Best bet is to listen to concertos written for the individual instruments. That'll give you a solid understanding of what can be done at the extremes. Then back off a bit for standard part writing 

rgames


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## RiffWraith (Aug 28, 2012)

A couple of things.

1. When it comes to film score music, much of the woodwind writing is doubling strings. Write your string parts, and then add woods. 

Dbl Basses > C-Bassoon
Celli > B. Clarinet and/or Bassoon
Violas > Clarinet and/or Bassoon
Violins > Oboes and Flutes, with Picc playing 8va

That ^ is just an ex., but you get the idea. Just remember to leave room for the "players" to breath.

2. John Williams uses winds very effectively - many times countering string parts. And no, I am not just talking about the wood runs. I don't have any specific examples off the top of my head, but check out some of the SW scores (esp. the newer 3), and Ind. Jones.

3. Did you see BWW demo in the BWW thread (comm. ann. sec.)? Someone did a screencast of a demo they did for the lib, and goes on to explain the methodology behind it. Take a look - you might find that useful.

Cheers.


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## Dave Connor (Aug 28, 2012)

Was just going over Ravel's orchestration of Pictures At An Exhibition with a student this morning. Within the first few pages you will see wonderful woodwind (and brass) writing: with the strings, alone, and as an upper reinforcement of the string parts. 

Every aspiring composer/orchestrator should live in that great score for it's outright brilliance and for the fact that it is an orchestration of a preexisting piano piece. The score is available at IMSLP for download but does not have the piano rendition directly underneath the score as does the study score.


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## Jerome Vonhogen (Aug 28, 2012)

Ravel's scores are a tremendous source of information and inspiration, I agree, but why doesn't anyone mention the most obvious piece, 'Ma mere l'oye'? It contains excellent writing for almost all common orchestral woodwinds, and it is such a wonderful set of character pieces. Highly recommended! 

By the way, I have the 1912 Durand Edition, but there might be other editions as well. After all, Ravel has been dead for quite a while.

~o) 


Here's my tip: as an exercise, try to write a woodwind-only piece as if you were writing it for full orchestra. Make sure all the woodwinds play in the most comfortable range of the instruments (no extremities) and give the instruments long melodic lines to play 'quasi solo' (i.e. against a woodwind background). Add a couple of counterpoint moments where the instruments can interact, then try out various dynamic levels while bringing out the changing character of the tone of each individual instrument (i.e. the 'timbre' in French).

As soon as your piece sounds balanced and coherent, it is time to dive into Ravel's scores to compare your writing to that of a true genius. I think this is a much better way of studying than the other way around, because you don't know what to look for in those scores until you know what needs to be improved in your own scores.

Good luck!

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## JJP (Aug 28, 2012)

RiffWraith @ Tue Aug 28 said:


> 1. When it comes to film score music, much of the woodwind writing is doubling strings. Write your string parts, and then add woods.
> 
> Dbl Basses > C-Bassoon
> Celli > B. Clarinet and/or Bassoon
> ...



Just because this type of doubling is done often in film music doesn't mean that it's particularly good orchestration. Far too often people don't know how to write for woodwinds so they just pick a string line and assign a woodwind that plays in the same register without a clear reason why. When doubling a string line, it should be to create a specific texture. Otherwise it just leads to bland, homogenous writing.

Woodwinds behave quite differently depending on the register (high/middle/low). They also blend differently in different registers. Learning how woodwinds blend to create different textures is one of the keys to unlocking their potential.


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## Peter Alexander (Aug 28, 2012)

rystro @ Tue Aug 28 said:


> Just purchased Berlin Woodwinds, BEAUTIFUL library. After playing with it I realized I really do not know how to write specifically for woodwinds in a orchestral context.
> 
> Any resources to aid with this?



Professional Orchestration 2B 
http://www.alexanderpublishing.com/Prod ... 67930.aspx


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## ryanstrong (Aug 28, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Aug 28 said:


> rystro @ Tue Aug 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Just purchased Berlin Woodwinds, BEAUTIFUL library. After playing with it I realized I really do not know how to write specifically for woodwinds in a orchestral context.
> ...



OMG, one of my favorites, actually it may be my favorite orchestral piece.


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## ryanstrong (Aug 28, 2012)

Jerome Vonhogen @ Tue Aug 28 said:


> Here's my tip: as an exercise, try to write a woodwind-only piece as if you were writing it for full orchestra. Make sure all the woodwinds play in the most comfortable range of the instruments (no extremities) and give the instruments long melodic lines to play 'quasi solo' (i.e. against a woodwind background). Add a couple of counterpoint moments where the instruments can interact, then try out various dynamic levels while bringing out the changing character of the tone of each individual instrument (i.e. the 'timbre' in French).
> 
> As soon as your piece sounds balanced and coherent, it is time to dive into Ravel's scores to compare your writing to that of a true genius. I think this is a much better way of studying than the other way around, because you don't know what to look for in those scores until you know what needs to be improved in your own scores.
> 
> ...



Good tip. I just need to get a feel for how they should and shouldn't interact with the other pieces of the orchestra.

For example I discovered that I love the flutes matching the upper melody of a piano as I did in my most recent piece here: http://soundcloud.com/ryanstrong/riding-down-nottingham

Then even a stacc flute matching the upper melody of the piano/keys. This was an ear opener to me because it brought such a "flighty" feel and just supplemented the melody. Gave it that extra layer.

Now it will just take time, research, always most importantly experience to discover the many other orchestration techniques with the woods.

One of my favorite things about writing for orchestra is that discovery moment when you find that counterpoint melody line that just glues things together and adds a whole new life to the composition.


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## ryanstrong (Aug 28, 2012)

Peter Alexander @ Tue Aug 28 said:


> rystro @ Tue Aug 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Just purchased Berlin Woodwinds, BEAUTIFUL library. After playing with it I realized I really do not know how to write specifically for woodwinds in a orchestral context.
> ...



Looks interesting Peter. I read the sample text and was interested. Does it topically take a high level approach to orchestration with woods and brass or does it go into complex examples of notation examples etc? Because I cannot read music - I simply have been writing music and orchestrating by ear. So something with a high level approach to writing for winds would be something I am interested in.


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## JJP (Aug 28, 2012)

Jerome Vonhogen @ Tue Aug 28 said:


> Here's my tip: as an exercise, try to write a woodwind-only piece as if you were writing it for full orchestra...


This is a great tip. Also writing for or studying woodwind quintets will teach you a lot.


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## Jerome Vonhogen (Aug 28, 2012)

rystro @ Wed Aug 29 said:


> Good tip. I just need to get a feel for how they should and shouldn't interact with the other pieces of the orchestra.
> 
> For example I discovered that I love the flutes matching the upper melody of a piano as I did in my most recent piece here: http://soundcloud.com/ryanstrong/riding-down-nottingham



Thanks for the link Ryan! I will listen to your piece tomorrow (it's already 5:30 AM here). Meanwhile, have a look at Ravel's 'Ma Mère l'Oye', it's worth every second of your time!

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## ryanstrong (Aug 28, 2012)

Jerome Vonhogen @ Tue Aug 28 said:


> rystro @ Wed Aug 29 said:
> 
> 
> > Good tip. I just need to get a feel for how they should and shouldn't interact with the other pieces of the orchestra.
> ...



Finally found the orchestral version of Ma mere l'oye. I was only aware of the piano version of that piece which I adore. Really beautiful piece.


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## Daniel (Aug 29, 2012)

RiffWraith @ 28th August 2012 said:


> A couple of things.
> 
> 1. When it comes to film score music, much of the woodwind writing is doubling strings. Write your string parts, and then add woods.
> 
> ...



This is really help me, the secret of Woodwinds arrangement is revealed!.
Many thanks, Jeffrey!

Best,


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## c0mp0ser (Aug 29, 2012)

Here's a screencast I did on writing for MIDI woodwinds. May be of some value?
http://wherestheorchestra.com/2012/08/w ... woodwinds/

Kinda biased toward another woodwind library , but hopefully it applies to whatever you are using.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 29, 2012)

[quote="c0mp0ser @ Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:42 am"=
Kinda biased toward another woodwind library , but hopefully it applies to whatever you are using.[/quote]

LOL!


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## bryla (Aug 29, 2012)

JJP @ Wed Aug 29 said:


> Jerome Vonhogen @ Tue Aug 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Here's my tip: as an exercise, try to write a woodwind-only piece as if you were writing it for full orchestra...
> ...


My eye/ear towards woodwinds opened when I started attending rehearsals and concerts by the local chamber ensemble when they were playing woodwind quintets. That's where you learn how the orchestra within the woodwinds is played.


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## ryanstrong (Aug 29, 2012)

bryla @ Wed Aug 29 said:


> JJP @ Wed Aug 29 said:
> 
> 
> > Jerome Vonhogen @ Tue Aug 28 said:
> ...



How do you find out about rehearsals? And were they keen on just letting anyone in to watch?


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## Kralc (Aug 29, 2012)

I'm pretty sure they'd be fine if you just showed up uninvited and stood in a corner watching them.  

+1 on the question though. I'd be really interested to know.


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## JJP (Aug 29, 2012)

rystro @ Wed Aug 29 said:


> How do you find out about rehearsals? And were they keen on just letting anyone in to watch?


Ask around among friends who are instrumentalists. If you know someone who plays bassoon or oboe, there's a good chance they'll be in a quintet or know someone who is.


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## bryla (Aug 30, 2012)

JJP @ Thu Aug 30 said:


> rystro @ Wed Aug 29 said:
> 
> 
> > How do you find out about rehearsals? And were they keen on just letting anyone in to watch?
> ...


Yes. Or just ask the ensemble office. Hey I'm a regular at the London SO rehearsals and got there just by e-mailing a 'Hey, can I watch?'


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## Kralc (Aug 30, 2012)

You lucky.........


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## ryanstrong (Aug 30, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E1G3qg8dAM&feature=youtube_gdata_player (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E1G3qg8 ... ata_player)

Good thought to watch woodwind quintets. Here is the Rite of Spring....


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## Blake Ewing (Aug 30, 2012)

Rystro,

You might also find audio of the original 13 piece arrangement of Copland's _Appalachian Spring_. There's a study score of it available also. 

Really good way to see the interaction between the string and wind sections (flute, clarinet and bassoon soloists in this case) in a more intimate, and perhaps more digestible setting.

-Blake


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