# Public domain on cue sheets



## chillbot (Jan 7, 2015)

Say a piece is 100% without a doubt in the public domain and you create a version of it for a television show... how do you list it on the cue sheet?

I have seen two ways: 1) listed simply as "public domain" no writer or publishing credit given, no royalties paid... or 2) composer either claims it as a derivation work or else I guess is essentially claiming the recording as their work and lists composer and publisher, royalties paid.

Is there a correct way? Which do you do? If you list your own name do you believe there's any ethics to be addressed?


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## Daryl (Jan 7, 2015)

This is very much country specific, so I would ask your PRO. However, the most important thing to mention is that by writing an arrangement, the piece in that form is no longer Public Domain.

D


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## chillbot (Jan 7, 2015)

I should clarify then, that I've seen it both ways on cue sheets in the US. I guess I always felt like it's ok to put your name on it because you spent all day doing an arrangement of it to video and it's not your fault the producer really wanted yankee doodle dandy. Plus you're not taking money from someone else if the choices are that either you get paid or no one gets paid, you might as well get paid. But I'm curious if that's common practice or not.


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## autopilot (Jan 7, 2015)

I've done this a heck of a lot. 

I Always do "Trad. Arr by Me" - in Australia we end up with 50% of a normal royalty.


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## dgburns (Jan 7, 2015)

chillbot @ Wed Jan 07 said:


> Say a piece is 100% without a doubt in the public domain and you create a version of it for a television show... how do you list it on the cue sheet?
> 
> I have seen two ways: 1) listed simply as "public domain" no writer or publishing credit given, no royalties paid... or 2) composer either claims it as a derivation work or else I guess is essentially claiming the recording as their work and lists composer and publisher, royalties paid.
> 
> Is there a correct way? Which do you do? If you list your own name do you believe there's any ethics to be addressed?



In Canada(Socan) ,I recently asked my PRO rep this very question,and the reply was if you arranged the work,you get 25 percent.If you have a publishing co,or someone is commisioning the work and taking publishing for your score,they can get half,so in Canada that would be writer 12.5/publisher 12.5 pecent.I guess it's considered a derivation of the PD.
Not sure about Ascap or BMI or international reciprical agreements to differing percentage allowances however.


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## chillbot (Jan 7, 2015)

OK I could ask BMI. But the reality is the cue sheets rarely if ever get checked for accuracy and even if they did you can name the cue anything you want and there's a very small chance anyone would actually pick up on it and call you on it. So I guess that's why asking about the ethics. It's not like you're depriving someone else of getting paid or stealing copyrighted music. You're just putting your name your own arrangement. Someone play devil's advocate to this?


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## dgburns (Jan 8, 2015)

chillbot @ Thu Jan 08 said:


> OK I could ask BMI. But the reality is the cue sheets rarely if ever get checked for accuracy and even if they did you can name the cue anything you want and there's a very small chance anyone would actually pick up on it and call you on it. So I guess that's why asking about the ethics. It's not like you're depriving someone else of getting paid or stealing copyrighted music. You're just putting your name your own arrangement. Someone play devil's advocate to this?



My thoughts on this are simple.Too much risk in not being honest.And considering that the show might reach a wide audience just adds to the risk should someone decide to look into it.
I'm just finishing a show where I was asked to adapt two opera pieces for score,so I also wondered about the whole PD thing.

As far as ethics,I guess for me I'd rather walk the straight and narrow.As Mark Twain said,"I don't lie,it's too hard to remember".I think I see it as being honest about business affairs means you don't get caught down the road in an unpleasant situaton.
My best advice to anyone in a similar situation is to ask their PRO people,and document it if need be.Atleast you have a dialog trail should someone legal come and question the situation.it also goes without saying that you need to make doubly sure the music in question is in fact Public Domain.
I can see the reasoning as to why someone migh want to add a well known tune into their movie or tv show or whatever.That recognition is what the director wants.After having to deal with all this however,in the future,I would much rather avoid the whole Public Domain thing if possible.


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## Daryl (Jan 8, 2015)

If you have done a legitimate arrangement, it is no longer Public Domain. It is your copyright. It also depends on how one categorises the arrangement. For example, is Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini an arrangement?

In the UK it is very simple. You get 100% of possible Royalties generated, unless you have a Publisher, and in that case it will depend upon the agreed split.

As you have seen from the answers above, there is no one way that this issue is dealt with, so you really do need to speak to your PRO.

D


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## dgburns (Jan 8, 2015)

Daryl @ Thu Jan 08 said:


> If you have done a legitimate arrangement, it is no longer Public Domain. It is your copyright. It also depends on how one categorises the arrangement.



I will need to investigate this further,but unless I misunderstand,if the melody is intact,you are arranging,and therefore not composing/writing.Seems a slippery slope that.

I totally understand the emotional need to want to "own" the royalties.I just don't buy the "if you arranged it" you own copyright.You might own the right to that "master use,mechanically",but only the arranging portion of the writer's share,and as such,agree with my Canadian PRO counterpart who explained it as such.

anyway,not trying to argue,just trying to sort through.I think a talk with an experienced Entertainment Lawyer may be in order.(for my benefit)

and as you can see,we are far from consensus here,so far we have in Australia you get 50 percent,100 percent in the UK and 25 percent in Canada.Maybe I should move to the UK 8)


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## jaeroe (Jan 8, 2015)

In the U.S., if you do an arrangement of PD piece, you put down any original composition credits and then put yourself (or whom ever) down as arranger

'Public Domain' or 'Mozart'
Arr: Bob Smith (ASCAP)/100%

Publisher portion you is also available, as it is the publishing of the arrangement at that point.

It is about intellectual property. Public Domain is free to all, but once you do something different with that then you can claim ownership of what you did.


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## chillbot (Jan 8, 2015)

Thanks for all the responses. I'd love to say this clears it up but.... anyway it helps.

I guess the ethical part to me is, not whether or not I wrote the music or I'm using somebody else's melody, it's that should I be paid for this or not? By getting paid for this arrangement, I'm not taking money from someone else, I'm just getting paid for work I did. The alternative seems to be that no one gets paid for it...? Seems odd that because it's PD then on principle no one should get royalites. I guess there is debate whether it's 0% or 25% or 100% or whatever depending on country but where is the rest of the % going?


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## Daryl (Jan 8, 2015)

chillbot @ Thu Jan 08 said:


> Thanks for all the responses. I'd love to say this clears it up but.... anyway it helps.
> 
> I guess the ethical part to me is, not whether or not I wrote the music or I'm using somebody else's melody, it's that should I be paid for this or not? By getting paid for this arrangement, I'm not taking money from someone else, I'm just getting paid for work I did. The alternative seems to be that no one gets paid for it...? Seems odd that because it's PD then on principle no one should get royalites. I guess there is debate whether it's 0% or 25% or 100% or whatever depending on country but where is the rest of the % going?


There is no rest. The broadcaster just doesn't pay it. In the same way as movie theaters in the US don't pay Royalties.

D


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