# Developers: I would value sample projects



## BachRules (May 10, 2014)

When I'm evaluating libraries and I listen to a MP3 demo, I'd like to be able to download the DAW project which made the MP3 demo, so I can see what sort of work is in store for me if I buy the product. Granted that projects written in one DAW don't generally open in other DAWs, and granted that if a project uses VST's I don't have on my system, I can't run the project.

When I buy a library, I also would like demo DAW projects along with the MP3 demos, to help me learn how to use the sample library effectively. I imagine that other potential customers would value this too, and it would be good for business.


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## G.E. (May 10, 2014)

+1


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## wesbender (May 10, 2014)

A project file doesn't make much sense for a variety of reasons, but I'm surprised that MIDI files aren't offered up more often. They could certainly go a long way toward helping people learn the various programming idiosyncrasies that many libraries require you to get the hang of in order to fully grasp them.


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## gregjazz (May 11, 2014)

Orange Tree Samples products (at least the more recent ones) usually include MIDI files from the demos, but it's interesting that you mention project files.

In fact, when it comes to the other tracks in the demo, the project files could include the MIDI data and audio mixdown--that way you still have access to the other instruments even if you don't own those libraries. The main difficulty is the providing project files for all the major DAWs.


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## EwigWanderer (May 11, 2014)

gregjazz @ 11th May 2014 said:


> Orange Tree Samples products (at least the more recent ones) usually include MIDI files from the demos



I've learned a lot by studying those midi files so thank you Greg.


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## wst3 (May 11, 2014)

I've asked for this many times... and there are developers like Orange Tree Samples that can and will provide demo midi files, Cinematic Strings is another, and I know there are more.

So first thing - if they do not have the files posted on their site email and ask. I've never received a cross word for doing so, although there are developers who prefer not to share.

Some of the reasons that I've heard include:
1) it is a lot of work to properly prepare the files
2) the use of other libraries further complicates things. They would have to include audio files, which I guess gets complicated?
3) sometimes they quite literally play their parts in, and they don't really want to share the MIDI that created the demo - which might seem a bit strange on first glance, but it is their work.

My request remains the same... please provide a 'dressed' demo in wav or mp3 format (prefer wav), and with that a "music minus pne" copy of the audio and the MIDI track used for the library in question.

Yes, that's potentially a LOT of work. But with major library purchases exceeding 4 figures it seems like a reasonable way for prospects to get a better idea of how the library was used.

I still think it is a good idea!!


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## BachRules (May 11, 2014)

gregjazz @ Sat May 10 said:


> Orange Tree Samples products (at least the more recent ones) usually include MIDI files from the demos,...


If a company can make a MIDI file which shows off their product, all the better, as it will work on all DAW's.



gregjazz @ Sat May 10 said:


> In fact, when it comes to the other tracks in the demo, the project files could include the MIDI data and audio mixdown--that way you still have access to the other instruments even if you don't own those libraries.


Good idea.



gregjazz @ Sat May 10 said:


> The main difficulty is the providing project files for all the major DAWs.


True, but if it results in more sales, it might pay off for the company.


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## TGV (May 11, 2014)

I also think it's a good idea. A few simple demos on the site, and the accompanying MIDI files and/or mix settings should be obligatory. It doesn't have to be a whole piece, but make clear how the sound was achieved. Another option is a thorough walk-through, highlighting things such as patches, note overlap, controllers, velocity, etc., and why they were chosen.


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## BachRules (May 11, 2014)

wst3 @ Sun May 11 said:


> ... there are developers who prefer not to share.
> 
> Some of the reasons that I've heard include:
> 1) it is a lot of work to properly prepare the files


If it's too hard for a company to prepare a DAW project or MIDI file showing off their product, I think it's going to be too hard for me to prepare a DAW project using their product.



wst3 @ Sun May 11 said:


> 2) the use of other libraries further complicates things. They would have to include audio files, which I guess gets complicated?


I don't see what the complication in that would be. It would be complicated if they run their product through FX which aren't part of the product. But if that's what I'm hearing in the demos, I'd like to see how the mix was processed.



wst3 @ Sun May 11 said:


> 3) sometimes they quite literally play their parts in, and they don't really want to share the MIDI that created the demo - which might seem a bit strange on first glance, but it is their work.


It's a matter of their priorities.



wst3 @ Sun May 11 said:


> ... if they do not have the files posted on their site email and ask....


I'll try that. Thanks for the advice.


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## playz123 (May 11, 2014)

Personally, I don't expect a composer, who has done a demo for a company, to release his/her project files to others, so I assume so no one is suggesting that. What a company might do though is release something the developer has produced to demonstrate some of the features of the program...like Alex did for Cinematic Strings etc. So there's a fine line here concerning what the end user is entitled to receive and what one is not. Greg has found a way and so has Alex and Embertone. One doesn't need an actual "demo" piece from a composer to accomplish this goal, nor should we expect that to happen.


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## Daryl (May 11, 2014)

playz123 @ Sun May 11 said:


> Personally, I don't expect a composer, who has done a demo for a company, to release his/her project files to others...


Why?

D


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## playz123 (May 11, 2014)

Daryl @ Sun May 11 said:


> playz123 @ Sun May 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Personally, I don't expect a composer, who has done a demo for a company, to release his/her project files to others...
> ...



Daryl, are you just trying to play 'devil's advocate' or something.  Do I really have to explain to a person of your calibre why a composer who has composed a piece of music and worked countless hours to perfect his work, and perhaps used techniques that he/she doesn't wish to share, should now turn around and provide all that information to anyone who wants it? In fact why don't you address your question to some of the well known composers on this forum? There's certainly nothing wrong with a developer providing some demo files, as some have already done, but that's not the same as expecting a contributing composer to do the same. Not sure why you'd even ask that question.


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## Casiquire (May 11, 2014)

Daryl, many of the demos you hear are commissioned. Somebody paid an unaffiliated composer and said "Make this library sound as good as you can." They will use the tricks of their trade. For example Colin O'Malley made some of the LASS and Hollywood Strings demos before Adagio ever came out (awkwaaaaard...) and it's no secret that Colin is an amazing mocker-upper. He took a paid gig to write something using a library and he used his own tricks and techniques which are completely unrelated to the library. He is not affiliated with the product so he's not about to expose his own techniques just for a gig. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about that! Still going on with the LASS example, notice how none of the demos were made by Andrew himself. I'm with Frank here, this seems like common sense.


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## Hannes_F (May 11, 2014)

Casiquire @ Sun May 11 said:


> and he used his own tricks and techniques which are completely unrelated to the library



and that is the point of this thread, no? What can be done with the library itself sans mixing tricksssserrry and what needs to be done in midi realm for that.


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## DocMidi657 (May 11, 2014)

The tricks of the trade for sample library demos: write outstanding, passionate, dynamic, inspiring music, write strong interesting parts the real world acoustic instrument typically plays and really important…write to the strengths of the the samples in the library. And also really important, avoid patches and samples in your composition that are not strong or would show a weakness in the library. Also play things in with a great organic feel.

I think you would probably learn a whole lot more if you loaded a mp3 of the demo in your DAW, loaded up the library and tried your best to recreate it by your ear. 

I guess I’m also saying that I think a lot of what makes us press the “buy button” is the composition and what’s mentioned in my post above way more then any “super secret MIDI trickery with CC’s and velocity edits”.

Personally I love the demos where the developers post a YouTube video playing thru all the articulations live and suggesting what you can do with it musically.

Having said all this when I worked as a clinician for the synth/workstation manufacturers in the 80's and 90's we always left our MIDI data at the stores and did not think there was anything super secret to hide  So puzzled a composer commissioned by a developer would be afraid to do this to help the developer (his client) increase their sales and possibly remove tech support questions coming in to them.


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## Daryl (May 11, 2014)

playz123 @ Sun May 11 said:


> Daryl @ Sun May 11 said:
> 
> 
> > playz123 @ Sun May 11 said:
> ...


Leaving aside your patronising tone, yes, I am completely serious. However, I'll try to answer some of your points.

1) Composers have been sharing their projects for centuries. It's called writing a full score, and the sharing is called Publishing, so there is nothing new about sharing details of composition.
2) If a composer has to use some sort of magic pixie dust to make a product sound good, it is not a fair representation of the product.
3) If a developer uses such demos to increase sales of their product, they are misleading the buyers by not telling them that to make it sound that good they need to invest in pixie dust.

TBH, if a composer thinks that they need to keep their projects secret, in order to try to keep some imagined compositional advantage, they don't have a very high opinion of their composition talents, IMO.

D


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## Daryl (May 11, 2014)

Casiquire @ Sun May 11 said:


> Daryl, many of the demos you hear are commissioned. Somebody paid an unaffiliated composer and said "Make this library sound as good as you can." They will use the tricks of their trade. For example Colin O'Malley made some of the LASS and Hollywood Strings demos before Adagio ever came out (awkwaaaaard...) and it's no secret that Colin is an amazing mocker-upper. He took a paid gig to write something using a library and he used his own tricks and techniques which are completely unrelated to the library. He is not affiliated with the product so he's not about to expose his own techniques just for a gig. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about that! Still going on with the LASS example, notice how none of the demos were made by Andrew himself. I'm with Frank here, this seems like common sense.


I'm not blaming Colin, or any of the other composers, misguided though I think that they are, but I think that the developers in question are seriously misleading their prospective buyers, by not telling them the best way to use the library.

D


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## playz123 (May 11, 2014)

Daryl @ Sun May 11 said:


> Leaving aside your patronising tone, yes, I am completely serious. However, I'll try to answer some of your points.
> 
> 1) Composers have been sharing their projects for centuries. It's called writing a full score, and the sharing is called Publishing, so there is nothing new about sharing details of composition.
> 2) If a composer has to use some sort of magic pixie dust to make a product sound good, it is not a fair representation of the product.
> ...


With respect, I suggest you've taken the point I've tried to make and gone off on a tangent with it. . We were not talking here about composing and then publishing scores etc.; the discussion was about sharing demos so others can learn from them, and are there limits to what we are entitled to expect. We are not talking about pixie dust rather about skills. 

My tone was not intended to be patronizing, rather light hearted, so sorry you took offense. On the other hand, I have no wish to be responsible for altering the tone of this thread further or for being responsible for any dust-ups among forum participants, as can often occur in situations like this.  I believe I've already made the point I originally intended to make here, so will leave additional discussions to you and others.


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## BachRules (May 11, 2014)

playz123 @ Sun May 11 said:


> ... ... there's a fine line here concerning what the end user is entitled to receive and what one is not.... there limits to what we are entitled to expect....


Since you're talking about "entitlement", I'm sorry my position wasn't clear. I don't feel entitled to anything. What I said is that I'd "value" demo DAW projects.



playz123 @ Sun May 11 said:


> ... Do I really have to explain to a person of your calibre why a composer who has composed a piece of music and worked countless hours to perfect his work, and perhaps used techniques that he/she doesn't wish to share, should now turn around and provide all that information to anyone who wants it?


He might do it for money? (Do I really have to explain that?)



Casiquire @ Sun May 11 said:


> ... he used his own tricks and techniques which are completely unrelated to the library....


So I'll assume that what I hear in the MP3 demo is completely unrelated to the library, and I won't take the MP3 demo as any indication of what the product would sound like in my hands, and I won't buy the product. 



playz123 @ Sun May 11 said:


> Personally, I don't expect a composer, who has done a demo for a company, to release his/her project files to others, so I assume so no one is suggesting that.


And I don't expect customers to pay money for libraries because of MP3 "demos" made using secret methods. Since you're looking at this in terms of "entitlement", I'll point out that developers aren't "entitled" to my money. Developers who provide good MP3 demos and show me exactly how those demos were made, will get my money. Developers who don't, won't.


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## proxima (May 11, 2014)

Concerns about revealing one's "special sauce" (as I believe Daniel James once referred to some of his techniques) just mean that it might be tricky to release the MIDI tracks of current demos. Going forward, it's entirely reasonable to hire a composer for a demo with the understanding that the tracks will be made available with the library. 

I'm not sure how much it will sway me one way or the other when it actually comes time to purchase it, but it certainly would speed up the learning curve rather than hunting about for how a certain sound in a demo was made.


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## Andrew Aversa (May 11, 2014)

For the last few Impact Soundworks releases, we've made MIDI files available for some of the popular demos, along with info on which patches were used. Customers have told us this is really helpful so we definitely plan to keep doing it.


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## Saxer (May 12, 2014)

i did some demos and i normally have no problems of publishing midi with it. but i think i couldn't just do it. think about the situation: demos are mostly made before a library is on the market. that means you deal with a lot of beta-version (hey wait, i changed the release samples, is it better that way?) and you work through it part by part. i often change daw-songs, import ready parts as audio and go on with new setups or try something out. it's work in progress. and most of the time this is not a real payed job. you get some libraries for free before release and can try out if you like it, nice. give some output to the developer, nice. that's it (at least for me most of the time). it's some work done after the 'real' jobs and there's just no time to recreate it with the ready library version that's on sale.


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## EwigWanderer (May 12, 2014)

I understand what Frank is saying and he is right...to a point. 

I value customer care a lot. We are lucky to have so great developers, who want us to use their products as good as we can. Most of us need help to do that. MIDI files are one way of doing that (MOR2 would get a lot more use from me if there would be MIDI files available, so I could understand what articulations to use etc)

Screencasts is another great learning tool. Make more of them! I don't expect that the pros will share their mixing secrets (then we all would know how to be as good as they are :wink: and probably also write as good music as they do if we only would know how they mix their strings and use different mics)

More we know, the better your products will sound in YT, SC and other sites.


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## BachRules (May 12, 2014)

Saxer @ Sun May 11 said:


> ... you deal with a lot of beta-version (hey wait, i changed the release samples, is it better that way?).... there's just no time to recreate it with the ready library version that's on sale.


When I'm shopping, I'm not interested in what can be done with a version that's not for sale; I'm interested in what can be done with the version the company is actually offering to customers.



EwigWanderer @ Sun May 11 said:


> ... I don't expect that the pros will share their mixing secrets....


I expect some pros would release MIDI or DAW files if they were compensated adequately for it. In turn, the developers who hired those particular pros would be compensated by customers who care about this. If a pro doesn't want to release his MIDI / DAW files, then what I'm suggesting is not the right profession for him.


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## Daryl (May 12, 2014)

BachRules @ Mon May 12 said:


> Saxer @ Sun May 11 said:
> 
> 
> > ... you deal with a lot of beta-version (hey wait, i changed the release samples, is it better that way?).... there's just no time to recreate it with the ready library version that's on sale.
> ...


I can't disagree with any of this.

D


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## EastWest Lurker (May 12, 2014)

I think people would be surprised to find that without the creator explaining their choices, simply examining a MODI file and trying to reverse engineer it would not be s illuminating for many as they think.

Colin is Colin and better than 90% of others not because of any "magic pixie dust" but because he is a terrific orchestrator, has great ears, compositional talent, and worked hard with libraries to master the best ways to manipulate them.

It isn't the choices, it is the reasoning for making those choices that is the hallmark of that level.


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## StevenOBrien (May 12, 2014)

playz123 @ Sun May 11 said:


> Do I really have to explain to a person of your calibre why a composer who has composed a piece of music and worked countless hours to perfect his work, and perhaps used techniques that he/she doesn't wish to share, should now turn around and provide all that information to anyone who wants it?


I find it funny that some composers actually worry about this. I can envision a future where composers will be so protective of their "top secret techniques", that they'll be reluctant to release the rendered music itself for fear of other composers figuring out their techniques by ear. :wink:


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## BachRules (May 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 12 said:


> I think people would be surprised to find that without the creator explaining their choices, simply examining a MODI file and trying to reverse engineer it engineer it would not be as illuminating for many as they think.


Why do you think that? Don't you find it illuminating to study Wagner or John Williams scores without the creators explaining their choices? When I study bare scores, without the creators explaining their choices, I find it illuminating. I learn lots more than I would from just listening to performances of the scores.

When I've studied the demo DAW projects which Propellerhead provides with Reason,

http://www.propellerheads.se/download/r ... emo-songs/ 

it's been helpful -- still without the creators explaining their choices. You can go to Propellerhead forums and ask other customers whose opinions are based in experience, instead of resigning yourself to conjecture which happens to suit your company's practice.

Those Propellerhead demos provide more examples of composers/producers willing to disclose "mixing secrets" to customers, and another example of a developer who added value to his product by providing such demos.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 12, 2014)

You are a trained composer, trained to be be able understand what Wagner wrote, To a a non-trained composer it is like speaking French to an Italian.

And very few trained composers are also trained to be able to understand MIDI cc manipulation and how it works with any given library etc. and that is mostly what most want to learn I think.

Anyway, I did not say that nobody would benefit, just that lot would not find it as helpful as they think they would.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 12, 2014)

Trumpoz put it very well on the Soundsonline forum:

"My non-professional opinion is that MIDI files are a waste of time if you can read music. 

A great mock-up can be made by:

1) Write great music and orchestrate it brilliantly. You can learn this from a midi file, but studying the scores of the greats and using your ears are of more benefit IMO.
2) Learn how live musicians approach playing their instrument (talk to people and listen to music). There are plenty of people on this and other forums willing to help, including those that have played at a very high level. 
3) Use CC#1 and CC#11 where appropriate to shape the notes (your ears are the best source here) to emulate no#2. How much is appropriate? How long is a piece of string?
4) Understand the libraries you are using and choose appropriate articulations in line with no#2
5) Apply spatial positioning/reverb/processing (which is usually done outside of the midi realm). 
6) Try to play all lines in live either via midi keyboard or midi guitar (if not, use humanisation functions). 

Mike Verta has made some of his MIDI files available using other libraries. His mock-ups are a combination of all of the above. There is no amazing trickery going on - he plays stuff in live to capture the spirit of performance. I used to think I needed to look at MIDI files to find the 'secret' to a great mock-up. IMO The secret is learning the tools you have, knowing how to write for various instruments, musicianship and hard work, none of which can be obtained from a midi file (and something that we all keep working on)."


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## BachRules (May 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 12 said:


> Trumpoz put it very well on the Soundsonline forum:
> 
> 
> > ... There is no amazing trickery going on... I used to think I needed to look at MIDI files to find the 'secret' to a great mock-up....


Since they contain no secrets, why doesn't EastWest disclose the source projects for their demos?

In any case, I urge developers to investigate whether their customers and potential customers want this, regardless of EastWest's personal opinion about what the market wants.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 12, 2014)

BachRules @ Mon May 12 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Trumpoz put it very well on the Soundsonline forum:
> ...



I have no idea what EW's policy is about this. I have never asked frankly. I expressed MY opinion and it may well not reflect what some at EW think. We will see if any of the EW higher ups respond to that thread on the SOL forum.


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## maestro2be (May 12, 2014)

There is certainly lots of things to learn from a "master level midi mockup". I remember when I first started out, I was amazed at what I was hearing from some of you people. Jay Bacal was the absolute master of midi mockups. There are many people who are great, but he was always one level above every one else to me.

I remember buying almost the entire VSL arsenal and then slowly learning over time, painfully, that this is much harder than it appears. Using the tools, and then learning what additional engineering etc. was required was simply mind blowing. I am a pianist, and yet, none of the piano VST's could play what I was trying to do live (due to limitations of velocity layers, no half pedaling etc.). I consider myself a high level musician, but it didn't help me one bit with my midi mockups because the same principles didn't apply. Sure the "theory" might have applied in context of "writing the music in Sibelius and having a pretty score", but the fact is, the instruments in the virtual world absolutely could not compete with my piano skills and give me the same performance that my grand piano did. Then the learning that playing a Violin Sample, using "Piano Skills" did so with very little benefit other than tempo mapping.

So, with that said, I embarked on my VSL journey and painfully learned from amazingly friendly, resourceful and thoughtful people (especially Beat Kaufmann, you were always so helpful my friend!). I learned that it wasn't even close to just, orchestrate it properly and it will sound nice. You had to learn all new tricks of the trade such as how sampler engines work (because each plays, controls differently). Today I also learn a lot from my good friend Daryl Griffith that you all know. His information has been extremely valuable and helpful. Thanks Beat and Daryl!

Even if you had a good sample, you had to become a master of not only what the samples could do/sound like, but also how to use the performance engine it was built on to create a realistic performance (and if it didn't have it, find another plugin or setting within your DAW to do more trickery/fakery). Or else you would be editing every note of the piece for days/weeks on end.

There is nothing musical about that. It was like having to learn a brand new instrument and mastering it all over again, only to find that it's consistently "inconsistent" and no matter what you do you will never get the desired results you wish by simply playing them in and calling it a day.

I was so frustrated, depressed etc. because this shit was so complex. After you finally thought you were doing good, you listen to yours against a real recording, or a master like Jay Bacal and you realize you still suck. And suck badly. Especially if you have the trained (or untrained) ear that is capable of hearing all the problems. I just couldn't understand how he got such a great sound and dynamic performance. Because when I play the "orchestral strings" that it says he used, mine don't sound this way.

This is when I realized that VSL offered his performances in Midi format, as well as the patches that he used. This was LIFE CHANGING for me. This was the first time that I was introduced to the fact that his sound was coming from layering upon layering. Using Solo Strings to bring out the detail, Chamber to act as a divisi for 2nd and 3rd violin parts. The fact that he had 2-3 instances of the same samples layering, but panned in different locations to make it appear to be enormous.

The fact is, I as a consumer and newbie at the time, wanted to hang my self from the ceiling because I couldn't get that sound, only to find out that it was not even close to being just his "orchestration", but in his creative ability to use many instances, layering, running separate CC11 and CC1 for all the layered instances that made his orchestration come to life. His ability to "change samples on almost every note" which is so talked about on VSL but never demonstrated. I was now seeing it first hand from the master himself and he proved this was the best way.

I wanted to burn my VSL Solo Strings library so many times I can't begin to tell you. Again, after listening to Jay Bacals solo performances, he proved by using the WRONG SAMPLES, yes, the WRONG SAMPLES, were actually the right ones for that passage. So as stupid as it sounded, sure, this SFFZ is actually the best note here, just raise the attack parameter up to 40 and then raise the dynamic slider to 94 etc. etc. In my absolute "logical mind" at the time, I believed hey, this is a "legato line", therefore I should only be using a "legato sample". Bullshit. This is not taught in orchestration classes nor any piano/violin lesson.

Those kinds of answers don't come from all the orchestration training in the world. And they don't come from studying Puccini and Mozart. They come from either trial and error (hoping you have the proper mental process to even think of it), learning how to play this "different instrument" from a real master (because it in itself is like a brand new instrument) or in hopes that the company provides dedicated training material for it's customers. Sure you can't please everyone, but you just might wake up the mind of someone like me and break me from the chains of only play these samples here, or if you want that enormous Wagnerian string "ARMY" sound of 6000 strings playing at once that was in my demo that you so loved and obsessed over, you will need to layer it 500 times in this way to get it. Because when you open your precious new box of 1,500.00 strings and they sound like a tiny canned pile of dog crap and screeching cats, you're going to be pissed off.

Sure you can say somehow this is my fault that my expectations were wrong. But how can that be when I am just beginning and looking to you (the developer) to buy your amazing product, and you don't explicitly show me otherwise or prepare my expectations properly? Perhaps you don't feel the need to do so. I say wrong answer to that mentality.

Some of us have been around so long now and done this so many times that we forget just how hard this really was/is. Developers need not lose that focus. Just because they understand it, or pay someone to make a mockup at Andy B.'s mocker-upper-level, can at times be very misleading (even though it's not perhaps intended to be). Sure who wouldn't want to produce and display their product at the highest possible level known to man kind? But keep in mind, there are also simple people/hobbyists who are also learning and giving you their money and you would be best served to help nourish them and watch them grow to spread praise about your product. At least with this type of behavior, the expectation levels would be set up front and not left to find out on your own in desperation.

So yes, to me there is much that can be learned from midi mockups that go way beyond orchestration.

Maestro2be


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## EwigWanderer (May 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ 12th May 2014 said:


> 4) Understand the libraries you are using and choose appropriate articulations in line with no#2



Heres the thing: One of the BWW screencasts there were some WW runs made with Stacc, Stacc short and sfz articulations combined. I've never ever even thought that way of doing runs. But they work and sound rather good. I learned a thing that I didn't know.

I bought MOR2 because of the guitars, but I haven't use it on anything because it's too much to handle. I don't know how to play guitar and I don't have the time to learn. Thats is why I bought the damn thing in the first place (demos sounds fantastic)

I understand that there are always a learning process when getting a new library, but there should be teachers too to help us by giving tips and hints.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 12, 2014)

The problem is that the techniques, other than the obvious ones, do not necessarily translate from library to library or from DAW to DAW.

Much of what Beat does brilliantly with VSL would not work well with the Hollywood series.


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## wst3 (May 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 12 said:


> The problem is that the techniques, other than the obvious ones, do not necessarily translate from library to library or from DAW to DAW.
> 
> Much of what Beat does brilliantly with VSL would not work well with the Hollywood series.



You know you are kind of making the argument for demo MIDI files Jay<G>!

I think it is EXACTLY the difference between different developers approach to assembling the samples that makes these example files so valuable.

I am not suggesting that developers owe us anything, but I do think that developers that provide example files will benefit in the long run.

Not everyone can mimic the thought processes of a mock-up master... but I think we can learn things about how a given library was used to create a given effect from a MIDI file.

And I don't even like reading MIDI files!!!!!

Here's a concrete example... I was studying the MIDI file for an 'epic action' theme. I always assumed there was a TON of stuff going on in one of these things. In this case there were three string tracks, two brass tracks, and half a dozen percussion tracks. It was the way the composer played each part of the others that made the track exciting.

Now did I learn how to do that by reading the MIDI? No, but I did learn that I didn't need 200+ tracks. And that's important too.

What I also learned was how this particular composer used CCs to shape the notes, and he used them differently for different libraries... so there is information to be gleaned from a MIDI file!


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## Saxer (May 12, 2014)

BachRules @ 12.5.2014 said:


> Saxer @ Sun May 11 said:
> 
> 
> > ... you deal with a lot of beta-version (hey wait, i changed the release samples, is it better that way?).... there's just no time to recreate it with the ready library version that's on sale.
> ...


yepp... that would be the ideal world. but it is what it is. 
on the other hand: the more work and editing goes into a library the better it gets. the first demos are done with more bugs to manage than the work with the final product. and without the first demos done with beta versions those bugs will not be found before release.
if you don't want risc never buy new libraries. after a few years and major updates you can listen to user demos done with the final product and you can be save. but at that time developers are not very interested in publishing new (as audio and midi) demos any more.

don't get me wrong: i would like those demos with midi and daw project too! but i think it's just a nice wish.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 12, 2014)

[quote="wst3 @ Mon May 12, 2014 8:53 am"
What I also learned was how this particular composer used CCs to shape the notes, and he used them differently for different libraries... so there is information to be gleaned from a MIDI file![/quote]

Respectfully: Seriously Bill, you needed a MIDI file to know that is required?


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## wst3 (May 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Respectfully: Seriously Bill, you needed a MIDI file to know that is required?



yes and no... obviously we all know that you need to breath life into every note, and that the suitable tool to do that is continuous controllers, since, well, they are continuous<G>.

I don't remember all the details, but there were some pretty cool things going on in the CCs that I had not thought to do.

I guess I'd have figured it out eventually, but it was nice to have a hand up.


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## Mike Greene (May 12, 2014)

To Bill's point, there's also something to be learned if there's *no* CC information where you might have expected it, since that would indicate the samples themselves "have a lot of character," which could be a good or bad thing. (More life versus less flexible.)

We have very few MIDI files for Realivox because they're mostly very obvious, but one that I thought was useful was for "Desert Wail," because that one had little pitch rises at the ends of phrases that helped breath extra life into it. It's not obvious and barely enough to really notice, until you can see/hear the difference.


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## jleckie (May 12, 2014)

NO ONE does it right like VSL. There stuff is all out there and exposed. I have never seen a larger selection of demos and projects offered up on a developers web site that has as many song files with attached MIDI than VSL. 

And when most people look at the amount of CC data that goes into each line I think they gain a new respect for what goes into a song in order to be as expressive as possible.


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## BachRules (May 12, 2014)

Mike Greene @ Mon May 12 said:


> To Bill's point, there's also something to be learned if there's *no* CC information where you might have expected it, since that would indicate the samples themselves "have a lot of character," which could be a good or bad thing. (More life versus less flexible.)
> 
> We have very few MIDI files for Realivox because they're mostly very obvious....


Would there be a downside to offering MIDI files? If I understand what you're saying, the MIDI underlying your demos tends to be uncomplicated; that would seem to be a selling point -- the customer can get the sound in your demos without spending his time finessing MIDI, so why wouldn't you want to drive home that selling point by showing the MIDI files?


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## BachRules (May 12, 2014)

Saxer @ Mon May 12 said:


> BachRules @ 12.5.2014 said:
> 
> 
> > When I'm shopping, I'm not interested in what can be done with a version that's not for sale; I'm interested in what can be done with the version the company is actually offering to customers.
> ...


You say that about developers, but I am seeing developers who are very interested in providing MIDI. I am seeing it when I look at:

Orange Tree Samples,
Cinematic Strings (according to wst3),
Impact Soundworks,
Realivox,
Propellerhead Reason, and
VSL

I'm shopping for strings. One string company is offering MIDI files to help me. A competing string company is paying a public-relations guy to try to convince customers that MIDI files don't help (unless there's something wrong with the customer), while everywhere I look, I see customers saying they really have been helped by MIDI files.



Saxer @ Mon May 12 said:


> don't get me wrong: i would like those demos with midi and daw project too! but i think it's just a nice wish.


A nice wish which has come true with Orange Tree Samples, Cinematic Strings (according to wst3), Impact Soundworks, Realivox, Propellerhead Reason, and VSL.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 12, 2014)

I am not a PR guy and nobody at EW has instructed, asked or even mentioned commenting on MIDI files. I gave my honest opinion as a user. Ifcyou disagree, fine, but please don't ascribe motives to me that I do not have.


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## Mike Greene (May 12, 2014)

BachRules @ Mon May 12 said:


> Mike Greene @ Mon May 12 said:
> 
> 
> > To Bill's point, there's also something to be learned if there's *no* CC information where you might have expected it, since that would indicate the samples themselves "have a lot of character," which could be a good or bad thing. (More life versus less flexible.)
> ...


We do offer *some* MIDI files, just not very many. I had a major had drive crash a year and a half ago where I lost almost all my Realivox demos. I stupidly hadn't backed them up, so the files are mostly unavailable.

With that said, there is still a minor downside (besides the ones already mentioned) to posting MIDI files, and that's time. Most companies are just a few (or even just one) guys, so after a library is completed, there are still a lot of odds and ends competing for our time. There's the manual, there are the walkthrough videos, there's writing the copy for the website, there's the publicity and PR work, there's answering countless emails . . . all these things add up. MIDI files would certainly be nice to post, but you'd be surprised how little time there is in the day when you're releasing a product.

Also, believe it or not, there's time involved in customer support for MIDI files. What patch, what settings, etc. I've gotten several emails along these lines, even for something as simple as the Realivox Ladies. That time adds up.

Another thing to bear in mind is that MIDI files are important to some, but not so important to most buyers. The ones on my site get very few hits. I do get an occasional request for more, but I get way more requests for all sorts of other things that people consider "really important." The list of things I wish I had time to do is a long one.

Again, I totally agree that MIDI files are great to have. But there is a cost in terms of time. Every hour (it really is hours, not minutes) spent posting and dealing with MIDI files is an hour not spent writing the manual, or doing another video, or updating my lonely Facebook page, or emailing reviewers, or checking VI Control, or adding new features, or . . .


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## BachRules (May 12, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 12 said:


> I am not a PR guy


How can your assertion here be taken seriously? In any case, EastWest is paying you to post here, and if you posted that VSL's practice with respect to MIDI files was the better practice, EastWest would have reduced incentive to pay you.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 12, 2014)

EW _doesn't_ pay me to do that, they pay me to be a conduit to their tech support and to pass on info that they want users to have. EVERYTHING I wrote about MIDI files was _strictly_ my own opinion and I have not discussed the issue with anyone at EW. Not even _one_ conversation. Not even _one_ person.


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## emid (May 12, 2014)

Although there are benefits to provide customers with the midi files, I don't think one can dictate a company to do so. It's typical of a childish attitude to insist that if you do this, I will do that. Thanks to those who provide the sketch of their demos but there are others who don't care and still they don't loose anything; in fact potential serious buyer will still buy and makes his own way while seasonal musicians like me will only rant of my own shortcomings. However, I don't rant.


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## BachRules (May 12, 2014)

emid @ Mon May 12 said:


> I don't think one can dictate a company to do so.


May customers discuss what they value in virtual instruments? Or this amounts to prohibited 'dictating'? Can companies withholding MIDI dictate that people still have to buy their products?



emid @ Mon May 12 said:


> It's typical of a childish attitude to insist that if you do this, I will do that.


So if I don't buy products I don't want, that would be childish?



emid @ Mon May 12 said:


> ... potential serious buyer will still buy and makes his own way


I won't still buy, so I must not be one of the "serious" buyers, and the question becomes, how much do companies want money from non-serious buyers like me? Is my money worth less than "serious" buyers' money?



emid @ Mon May 12 said:


> Thanks to those who provide the sketch of their demos but there are others who don't care and still they don't loose anything....


Why do you assume companies withholding MIDI won't lose anything? I see people in this thread and on Propellerhead forums expressing that they value demo projects; and I see it on EastWest forums too:



> I'd love to see exactly how the midi is programmed for some of these demos





> I do think that midi files can be useful.... I did it and found it very useful....


http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/show ... hp?t=48434

You don't think those people are willing to pay for what they find useful? Or you think when they buy from a company that gives them what they want, other competing companies somehow won't be losing business?


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## Daniel James (May 12, 2014)

I 100% get where you are coming from but here are my thoughts on the whole thing.

I think the main issue with giving out project files for people to play with is the aspect of theft/piracy. Now for a demo to be worth showing to the public it generally has to be pretty good otherwise it would make the library sound bad. So when developers don't give out project files I don't believe they are trying to hide anything, I think they are simply trying to protect people copying their composition style or even worse...an actual composition.

I know you may disagree with that point but let me give you an example. When I do overview videos for sample libraries I am showing in great detail how I composed my demos, there are extended periods of time when people can observe my midi information and see how I am achieving certain textures. Now there have been quite a few occasions now where I have stumbled across almost note for note recreations of my demo tracks being sold as original compositions on royalty free music stores with maybe a different melody line or a different counter point. And this is the people who actually put in EFFORT to rip off the work I put into that demo track. Now if I was to offer the project files to the same tracks I show in my videos, I get a very strong feeling that the problem of being ripped off will grow even greater as it no longer takes any effort at all to steal from it.

And that is just speaking about what I have personally experienced. I would never ask a 3rd party composer for project files as I understand that piece is their creative work, of which they are allowing me to license it for the purpose of demonstrating my library in the context of the real world.

-DJ


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## BachRules (May 12, 2014)

Daniel James @ Mon May 12 said:


> I would never ask a 3rd party composer for project files as I understand that piece is their creative work, of which they are allowing me to license it for the purpose of demonstrating my library in the context of the real world.


That would be your choice, but VSL and Propellerhead have chosen differently, presumably because they don't just want to show how their products can sound -- they want to show how their products can sound in the customer's hands, which is something some customers care about, as VSL and Propellerhead have recognized.



Daniel James @ Mon May 12 said:


> I think the main issue with giving out project files for people to play with is the aspect of theft/piracy. Now for a demo to be worth showing to the public it generally has to be pretty good otherwise it would make the library sound bad. So when developers don't give out project files I don't believe they are trying to hide anything, I think they are simply trying to protect people copying their composition style or even worse...an actual composition.


Some companies withholding MIDI might be concerned only with piracy. Okay, but withholding MIDI isn't the service I'm shopping for, so I'll pass and save my money for a different company.

Other companies might have more to hide. Maybe they produced a demo on an alpha version of their software, and then removed features from their software before offering it for sale. Maybe when they had the live orchestra in a room together, they had the orchestra play some stuff, and they recorded it and put it in a demo, but that particular stuff isn't available in the library version which is for sale. I want real assurance this didn't happen, and so I'll save my money for companies which can demonstrate it.



Daniel James @ Mon May 12 said:


> I know you may disagree with that point but let me give you an example. When I do overview videos for sample libraries I am showing in great detail how I composed my demos, there are extended periods of time when people can observe my midi information and see how I am achieving certain textures. Now there have been quite a few occasions now where I have stumbled across almost note for note recreations of my demo tracks being sold as original compositions on royalty free music stores with maybe a different melody line or a different counter point. And this is the people who actually put in EFFORT to rip off the work I put into that demo track. Now if I was to offer the project files to the same tracks I show in my videos, I get a very strong feeling that the problem of being ripped off will grow even greater as it no longer takes any effort at all to steal from it.


Composers have been working around the specter of piracy ever since the first song was sung out loud; and ever since the first handwritten score, phonograph record, 8-track tape, CD, and MP3 file were published. I agree that potential piracy is an "issue", but doubt it's decisive, as I witness composers/producers who chose to risk it:

http://www.vsl.co.at/en/67/702/252.vsl
http://www.propellerheads.se/download/r ... emo-songs/

Maybe their work has been stolen as a result, but maybe it was worth it because of compensation (gifts, money, promotion on the VSL and Propellerhead websites) they received? It's each composer's choice whether to supply the service I'm willing to pay for. If that's not a profession you want for yourself, no problem.


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## trumpoz (May 12, 2014)

Bachrules - the thread you linked to contains a post by me. I'll stand by that opinion until the hell freezes over. We are trying to emulate live instruments, the best information we can have for mock-ups is understanding how live instruments are played and sound. 

My brass programming is a mile better than my string programming because I am a brass player and my understanding of how the instruments function is far beyond my understanding of stringed instruments. 

My guess with EasWest is that they license their demos which makes piracy an issue.


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## Daniel James (May 13, 2014)

BachRules @ Mon May 12 said:


> Daniel James @ Mon May 12 said:
> 
> 
> > I would never ask a 3rd party composer for project files as I understand that piece is their creative work, of which they are allowing me to license it for the purpose of demonstrating my library in the context of the real world.
> ...



I can see where you are coming from but I think I just disagree with your opinion, which is all good thats what makes the world a more exciting place.

If a developer shows a naked demo of a sample library, I know that I can make something that sounds like it. I may not be able to get it exact or anything but If I am only hearing the sounds from the library I have enough to go on. 

You have to remember when listening to a demo track you are pretty much listening to the sounds of the library, not so much the composition. If the composer made a cool string run and only used the library then you can too. If he did something thats hard to do with the library but still pulls it off and makes it sound awesome...then anyone who buys the library can, with practice of course. Like I said if its done with the library, the developer isn't lying about what his product can do, because someone proved it can be done. Look at it like this, if there is a piano library, and the demo is a super complex hard to play piece, I understand that I wont be able to achieve that composition out of the box but I WILL have the same sound of the piano and with practice I can achieve the same level of skill....I dont expect the composer to show me his midi to see how he achieved that cool sounding run  or even simpler...when I watch Ronaldo playing football, when I buy I football, I don't expect Ronaldo to show up and teach me how he did all those crazy tricks like I saw on the TV. 

-DJ


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## emid (May 13, 2014)

BachRules, you are entitled to your own opinion of not buying without getting a midi file. Yes, it would be childish and hilarious to impose "if midi then product"<---- that is my opinion and I am entitled to my own. Discussion should lead to consensus, and the consensus is people are doing great mock ups with the understanding of how a particular instrument sounds when played i real. That is why aside from only some, most of the other companies do not provide midi work and only demo videos or audios just to show the playability. Strangely they are flourishing contrary to your analogy. Likewise, composers are doing astounding work without getting a mere midi file, however this would be an add on for sure. But I do "only" "suggest" you to follow the advise given by trumpoz in the link. You will still need to buy a product from VSL or Reason to evaluate the midi work in a demo, isn't it? What if you don't like the product afterwards? That's all from me.


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## pkm (May 13, 2014)

This reminds me of the thread about reading manuals vs. watching video tutorials.

Sometimes, you just gotta figure things out on your own.


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## BachRules (May 13, 2014)

trumpoz @ Mon May 12 said:


> We are trying to emulate live instruments, the best information we can have for mock-ups is understanding how live instruments are played and sound.


I play drums, trumpet, and violin, and when I hit EWQLSO with a stick, blow into it, or drag a bow across it, it sounds bad; so your theory isn't working for me. I'm fine with you approaching your own music however you like. If you have a problem with how I approach my own music, so be it.



trumpoz @ Mon May 12 said:


> ... My guess with EasWest is that they license their demos which makes piracy an issue.


An issue which VSL and Propellerhead have worked around for the benefit of customers who value MIDI demos.



trumpoz @ Mon May 12 said:


> Bachrules - the thread you linked to contains a post by me. I'll stand by that opinion until the hell freezes over.


In that thread you profess to know "the secret". Besides your having written that on the internet, why would I believe that you know everything I want to know about making music? Since you feel your string programming is "a mile" behind your brass programming, why would I follow your advice about learning string programming?



Daniel James @ Mon May 12 said:


> If a developer shows a naked demo of a sample library, I know that I can make something that sounds like it. I may not be able to get it exact or anything but If I am only hearing the sounds from the library I have enough to go on.


So it's a question of how much developers want money from customers who are different from you -- customers who value MIDI demos. And the developers don't have to look far to find that such customers are numerous and their money is good. 



Daniel James @ Mon May 12 said:


> You have to remember when listening to a demo track you are pretty much listening to the sounds of the library, not so much the composition. If the composer made a cool string run and only used the library then you can too. If he did something thats hard to do with the library but still pulls it off and makes it sound awesome...then anyone who buys the library can,...


Unless the library for sale is different from the library which made the demo.



Daniel James @ Mon May 12 said:


> ... with practice of course.


With practice (do you mean trial and error?), or by working from a model. I understand that working from a model isn't necessary -- Beethoven could have figured out how to compose through trial and error, instead of studying models. I want to work from models, though, and I'm willing to pay for what I want, and some composers and developers are offering what I want, and they will get my money; and that seems basic, so I don't understand why you think there's something wrong with that arrangement?



Daniel James @ Mon May 12 said:


> Like I said if its done with the library, the developer isn't lying about what his product can do....


And if it's not done with the library available to customers, then?

And without MIDI files, how can a potential customer know whether his particular machine can play one of the demos without choking or crashing?



Daniel James @ Mon May 12 said:


> ... if there is a piano library, and the demo is a super complex hard to play piece, I understand that I wont be able to achieve that composition out of the box but I WILL have the same sound of the piano and with practice I can achieve the same level of skill....


Your understanding should resonate with composers who don't bother to analyze other composers' scores, because all you really need is practice. But for those of us composers who find score-analysis a valuable alternative to trial-and-error, it's different.

Who needs any education at all? With enough trial and error, you can figure out everything up through General Relativity and beyond. So no one really needs education, but some might want it anyway.

Who cares how usable a product is, as long as it's theoretically possible to use it? Who cares how many hours they have to try and err before the product becomes effective in their hands? Lots and lots of customers is who.



Daniel James @ Mon May 12 said:


> I dont expect the composer to show me his midi to see how he achieved that cool sounding run ...


Expect what you will, but reality is that some composers are showing their MIDI on VSL and Propellerhead websites. Good business for those composers and good business for VSL and Propellerhead, and I expect that business to grow, as I see the very real segment of customers with money who value MIDI demos.


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## BachRules (May 13, 2014)

emid @ Tue May 13 said:


> You will still need to buy a product from VSL or Reason to evaluate the midi work in a demo, isn't it?


Propellerhead let's you evaluate Reason free for 30 days, including the demo songs.



emid @ Tue May 13 said:


> Discussion should lead to consensus....


I don't know why you assume that. I'd thought each developer was allowed to conduct his business the way he chose, and each customer allowed to choose which products he wanted, as childish as you might find that arrangement.


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## BachRules (May 13, 2014)

pkm @ Tue May 13 said:


> ... Sometimes, you just gotta figure things out on your own.


Other times, I don't just gotta do that, because I receive assistance from companies. Sometimes companies that don't care to serve their customers just gotta take financial responsibility for that decision.


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## Casiquire (May 13, 2014)

BachRules @ Tue 13 May said:


> trumpoz @ Mon May 12 said:
> 
> 
> > We are trying to emulate live instruments, the best information we can have for mock-ups is understanding how live instruments are played and sound.
> ...



Based on posts like these, I assume you're being intentionally argumentative just for argument's sake and urge the rest of the members not to feed the trolls. Which really sucks because I do actually think midi files would be cool, but you've hurt your own cause here.


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## BachRules (May 13, 2014)

Casiquire @ Tue May 13 said:


> BachRules @ Tue 13 May said:
> 
> 
> > trumpoz @ Mon May 12 said:
> ...


Re the 1st post you quote: Trumpoz's theory is, "the best information we can have for mock-ups is understanding how live instruments are played and sound." But his theory is senseless:



Christof @ Tue May 13 said:


> ... I am a classical trained cellist, I thought this might be enough to create a good sounding sampled string sound....well, it takes more than that


http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38563

Re the 2nd post you quote: An EastWest employee admits outright that he doesn't expect an EastWest products to function correctly without "a slave PC" and "SSDs" (though neither "slave PC" or "SSD" is "recommended" in EastWest's official "specification" for the product):



EastWest Lurker @ Tue May 13 said:


> Some of you who complain about Play... Now if you object to having to use a slave PC if you want to run a lot of the Hollywood series, object to having to buy SSDs, then yes, I understand that.


http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... 3&start=70

So your assumptions were foolish, and I urge you to cease and desist your foolishness and offensiveness.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 13, 2014)

Never said "I don't expect them to function correctly." That is YOUR interpretation.

Play functions fine on a Mac but requires more RAM to load the same patches so a slave PC with SSDs is clearly the best solution if, like me, you want to use A LOT of Hollywood series patches.

With smaller projects I do turn off the PC and since my Mac has 32 GB it is fine.


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## BachRules (May 13, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue May 13 said:


> Play functions fine on a Mac but requires more RAM to load the same patches so a slave PC with SSDs is clearly the best solution if, like me, you want to use A LOT of Hollywood series patches.
> 
> With smaller projects I do turn off the PC and since my Mac has 32 GB it is fine.


And you can confirm that the EastWest demos are all "smaller projects" which won't choke on a system lacking a slave and SSD?


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## EastWest Lurker (May 13, 2014)

Your ears should tell you that assuming they are commenurate with your talent for arguing


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## trumpoz (May 13, 2014)

@BachRules - why should you take in anything I have to say. You shouldn't - it is just my opinion as a non-professional. 

Have you looked at Mike Verta's Video's? He has really thought about how each intrument works and how to emulate it using the tools he has. I'm trying to go along that line. If that isnt for you then so be it.

I would suggest you could spend the time you are arguing on this thread on improving your mock-ups........

(as will I)


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## kitekrazy (May 13, 2014)

EwigWanderer @ Sun May 11 said:


> gregjazz @ 11th May 2014 said:
> 
> 
> > Orange Tree Samples products (at least the more recent ones) usually include MIDI files from the demos
> ...




Anytime I buy loops they gotta have the midi files. I like to study chord progressions in dance genres.


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## BachRules (May 14, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue May 13 said:


> Your ears should tell you that assuming they are commenurate with your talent for arguing


So even machines meeting EastWest's published "Recommended" and "Optimal" criteria will choke or crash trying to play EastWest's demos; and withholding the MIDI files misleads potential customers about this.



trumpoz @ Tue May 13 said:


> Have you looked at Mike Verta's Video's? He has really thought about how each intrument works and how to emulate it using the tools he has.


I study theory, but I also study models. That's the whole thing about this thread.



trumpoz @ Tue May 13 said:


> I would suggest you could spend the time you are arguing on this thread on improving your mock-ups........


My productions improve when I study models. That's the whole thing about this thread. I don't value your advice about making music, but you've been inclined to dispense it here nonetheless. There would be no argument, if it weren't for the people arguing that this thread's title is somehow incorrect.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 14, 2014)

BachRules @ Tue May 13 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue May 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Play functions fine on a Mac but requires more RAM to load the same patches so a slave PC with SSDs is clearly the best solution if, like me, you want to use A LOT of Hollywood series patches.
> ...



I don't know why I am bothering to continue to engage with you since I have enough experience with you to know there is no reasoning with you and that you will just dig in your heals further, but maybe it will help others who actually are discussing with an open mind and not just an open mouth.

But if you go to http://www.jayasher.com/listen/ about half way down there is a piece called "Diabolique" that I did that I can run on my iMac i7 w/ 32 GB and no SSDs.

Attached are pics of my VE Pro template and the Logic project. Each v-frame has a single instance of Play with 3 patches.


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## ryanstrong (May 14, 2014)

This topic of conversation and the debate reminds me of when Daniel posted about how to get Zimmer spiccatos and was asked to take them down.


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## BachRules (May 14, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed May 14 said:


> ... if you go to http://www.jayasher.com/listen/ about half way down there is a piece called "Diabolique" that I did that I can run on my iMac i7 w/ 32 GB and no SSDs....


But that doesn't answer the question:



BachRules @ Tue May 13 said:


> ... you can confirm that the EastWest demos... won't choke on a system lacking a slave and SSD?


And there's also:



StatKsn @ Sat May 10 said:


> ... Realistically speaking, you NEED a 320GB SSD in order to run HS Diamond legato patches or else you'll fall asleep while waiting for mic positions to be loaded - I am not kidding!....





rpaillot @ Sun May 11 said:


> ... PLAY doesnt seem to work properly without clicks and pops on MAC .
> 
> I have a Hack with I7 6 cores 4930 and 64 gb, and SSD for HS, and I get clicks with 3 legato patchs loaded and playing at the same time.
> 
> Some friends have exactly the same issues with a genuine Mac ( latest MP 2013 )....





parnasso @ Sun May 11 said:


> rpaillot said:
> 
> 
> > PLAY doesnt seem to work properly without clicks and pops on MAC .
> ...





jamwerks @ Sun May 11 said:


> JohnG @ Sat May 10 said:
> 
> 
> > You are mistaken. It's simple to add multiple mic positions in PLAY. I do it all the time, and blend them to taste.
> ...





Diffusor @ Mon May 12 said:


> ... you can barely run one of the mic positions real time.... Back when I was trying to get HS to run I was told I needed a super computer with SSDs but it really didn't make any difference even when I got all that. One mic perspective is all I got reliably and I had to split the strings sections over two computers....





josejherring @ Tue May 13 said:


> ... Successful Play experience requires... SSD....





josejherring @ Tue May 13 said:


> ... I still don't think it that beneficial to have everything on one machine....


http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... sc&start=0


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## bbunker (May 14, 2014)

Deleted


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## BachRules (May 14, 2014)

bbunker @ Wed May 14 said:


> ... BachRules, does every thread have to turn into your personal EW pissing ground? I saw your point about 36 posts ago.


Why are you pissing here? I was speaking in general terms, not specific to any company:



BachRules @ Tue May 13 said:


> without MIDI files, how can a potential customer know whether his particular machine can play one of the demos without choking or crashing?


It's a legitimate question, if you can stop pissing long enough to see my actual actions here. But then Casiquire assailed my question's merits, so at that juncture I found it prudent to introduce specific evidence establishing the merit of my question. And as I scanned the forum, I found a great many threads with a great number of people reporting problems with EastWest software, so I made use of the evidence which was most available.



bbunker @ Wed May 14 said:


> Seriously, are there not enough "Russian Film Composers" running around grabbing Soundcloud files, throwing a synth part on them and spamming them around RF sites? Should we provide the MIDI data for those as well, so that they can actually change 4 or 5 notes from their "RF-construction-kit" and have their own RF imitation ready for mass production?
> 
> I could see maybe a performance on one instrument, but an entire orchestral piece? I wouldn't want to see that touched with any length of bargepoles.


I've already addressed your concern repeatedly:



BachRules @ Mon May 12 said:


> If a pro doesn't want to release his MIDI / DAW files, then what I'm suggesting is not the right profession for him.





BachRules @ Mon May 12 said:


> Composers have been working around the specter of piracy ever since the first song was sung out loud; and ever since the first handwritten score, phonograph record, 8-track tape, CD, and MP3 file were published. I agree that potential piracy is an "issue", but doubt it's decisive, as I witness composers/producers who chose to risk it:
> 
> http://www.vsl.co.at/en/67/702/252.vsl
> http://www.propellerheads.se/download/r ... emo-songs/
> ...


If you don't want to sell MIDI, I'm not asking any developers to do this business with you, and I'm fine with you not partaking in the profession I'm addressing. Does that allay your concerns?


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## EastWest Lurker (May 14, 2014)

Here is my final response to you Bach Rules because after this there is no point, as others are not beginning to point out, so I need not.

I cannot "confirm that the EastWest demos... won't choke on a system lacking a slave and SSD."

I assume they will. I know a lot of demo makers for sample companies. I have every reason to believe that every single one of them has a very powerful system and that most of them use multiple computers. Their job is to make the library sound as good as possible and they use whatever resources they have to do so. Admittedly, for the 900th time now, HS is probably the most resource hungry library on the planet. If you have minimal specs, you will only be able to run a minimal amount. Even with the recommended system, you may or may not be able to run all that you wish to run of the powerful system patches.. You can run more on a powerful PC than on a powerful Mac. If you have 2 computers you can run more than on 1 computer. If you have 3 computers you can run more than on two computers. SSDs allow you both to load faster AND stream more voices which is a big help with such a demanding library.

Play works fine on my Mac, it just takes more RAM to load the same patches. I do not have an SSD and my 2012 is an i7 but not as powerful as this year's top of the line iMac and certainly not as powerful as the new Mac Pro. And yet I CAN have 5 legato patches from the powerful system folder playing simultaneously without pops and clicks and at a 256 buffer and anyone in LA can come here and I will prove it 

Why some can and others cannot, I do not know.There are too many variables for me to diagnose it. But it is fair to assume that I have no special magic that makes performance possible for me that others should not be able to duplicate.

And now, sir, I am truly done with you.


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## BachRules (May 14, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed May 14 said:


> I cannot "confirm that the EastWest demos... won't choke on a system lacking a slave and SSD."
> 
> I assume they will....


By withholding MIDI files, you are denying potential customers the opportunity to know whether their own machines can play the demos without choking or crashing. Can you understand that customers may care how it runs on their own machines, especially as compared with the demo MP3's?



Daniel James @ Mon May 12 said:


> If the composer made a cool string run and only used the library then you can too.


Unless you actually can't, because "even with the recommended system, you... may not be able to run" it.



Daniel James @ Mon May 12 said:


> If he did something thats hard to do with the library but still pulls it off and makes it sound awesome...then anyone who buys the library can, with practice of course.


Unless they actually can't pull it off even with practice, because "even with the recommended system, you... may not be able to run" it.



Daniel James @ Mon May 12 said:


> if there is a piano library, and the demo is a super complex hard to play piece, ... I WILL have the same sound of the piano....


Unless you actually can't have the same sound, because "even with the recommended system, you... may not be able to run" it.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 14, 2014)

re: _“PLAY doesnt seem to work properly without clicks and pops on MAC . 

I have a Hack with I7 6 cores 4930 and 64 gb, and SSD for HS, and I get clicks with 3 legato patchs loaded and playing at the same time. 

Some friends have exactly the same issues with a genuine Mac ( latest MP 2013 )….”_

Here is a little Bach chorale I just entered on my iMac streaming from a 7200 WD Caviar Black HD.I am using *five* legato slurs patches: vln 1, vln 2, vka, celli, basses, each with the close and vintage mics loaded sending to 1 instance of QL Spaces.

As you can hear AND you can see by looking at the waveform, no pops or clicks.
https://soundcloud.com/jay-asher/5-hs-p ... s-w-2-mics


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## Casiquire (May 14, 2014)

BachRules @ Tue 13 May said:


> Casiquire @ Tue May 13 said:
> 
> 
> > BachRules @ Tue 13 May said:
> ...



See everybody? Even when he tries to tackle your points one by one BachRules somehow manages to turn it into something completely different. For example I pointed out the foolishness of believing that a midi file to a library you _don't own_ can tell you how taxing it will be on your system (despite the fact that you can't load a single patch of the library without owning it!), and he turned it into something about the stats that EW posts on their site. Not worth arguing, people.


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## cyoder (May 14, 2014)

> By withholding MIDI files, you are denying potential customers the opportunity to know whether their own machines can play the demos without choking or crashing. Can you understand that customers may care how it runs on their own machines, especially as compared with the demo MP3's?



Forgive my if I'm misunderstanding your point, BachRules, but with MIDI files alone you wouldn't be able to stress-test your computer anyway. You'd need to have the plugin/sounds on your computer to play the file, and if you have the sounds you already bought it, and if you already bought it you can't resell it due to the no-resale policy of many developers, so if you're wanting to stress test the files to judge whether to buy it or not, it's too late. It sounds like you're talking about a software demo + midi files (or project templates). Am I misunderstanding?

Regards,


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## Daniel James (May 14, 2014)

BachRules @ Wed May 14 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed May 14 said:
> 
> 
> > I cannot "confirm that the EastWest demos... won't choke on a system lacking a slave and SSD."
> ...



What has recommended computer specs have to do with offering midi files? Your blind rage seems to be diverting you away from your original point. I still stand by what I said about midi files. If I heard something done with the library, I can achieve it. 

Also in general (I can't think of an exception to this rule) if you can run one Kontakt library ok, you can run all the others just as well. In response to your earlier reply, again I will never ask a 3rd party for midi files of their work....because compositions are themselves pieces of work which the composer is free to sell on, have licensed etc and personally knowing how easy midi files would make ripping of that composers work I don't see the added value. Keep in mind I do 2 hour unedited videos of my demos, kinda hard to hide flaws out in the open like that.

BachRules, I think you should come to the realization that people UNDERSTAND what you are saying, you have expressed your opinion on the matter various times. We get it. You have to understand and respect all the people who have a differing opinion.

-DJ


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## BachRules (May 14, 2014)

Casiquire, it's really just that you are exhibiting marked impairment in receptive and expressive language functioning.



Daniel James @ Wed May 14 said:


> What has recommended computer specs have to do with offering midi files? Your blind rage seems to be diverting you away from your original point.


Your blind rage, Daniel James, seems to be diverting you away from the relevance of computer specs, because it's been addressed already, starting in the original post:



BachRules @ Sat May 10 said:


> When I'm evaluating libraries and I listen to a MP3 demo, I'd like to be able to download the DAW project which made the MP3 demo, so I can see what sort of work is in store for me if I buy the product....


To put a fine point on it, I'd like to know how much I'd have to work to earn enough money to upgrade my computer from the "Recommended" specs to the specs actually needed to run the demo.




Daryl @ Sun May 11 said:


> ...
> 2) If a composer has to use some sort of magic pixie dust to make a product sound good, it is not a fair representation of the product.
> 3) If a developer uses such demos to increase sales of their product, they are misleading the buyers by not telling them that to make it sound that good they need to invest in pixie dust....


To put a fine point on it,

2) If a composer has to use some sort of computer surpassing "Recommended" specs to make a product sound good, it is not a fair representation of the product.
3) If a developer uses such demos to increase sales of their product, they are misleading the buyers by not telling them that to make it sound that good they need to invest in computer surpassing "Recommended" specs....



Daniel James @ Wed May 14 said:


> BachRules, I think you should come to the realization that people UNDERSTAND what you are saying, you have expressed your opinion on the matter various times. We get it. You have to understand and respect all the people who have a differing opinion.


Same to you.


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## BachRules (May 14, 2014)

cyoder @ Wed May 14 said:


> Forgive my if I'm misunderstanding your point, BachRules, but with MIDI files alone you wouldn't be able to stress-test your computer anyway. You'd need to have the plugin/sounds on your computer to play the file, ...


My thinking on MIDI files was,



BachRules @ Sun May 11 said:


> ... _If_ a company can make a MIDI file which shows off their product, all the better....


On the other hand, if a MIDI file _doesn't_ suffice to show off the product (e.g. plugins are needed), then back to my original post about DAW project files. My apologies if I've been careless in distinguishing between the two cases.



cyoder @ Wed May 14 said:


> You'd need to have the plugin/sounds on your computer to play the file,


If I'd need to do additional work to earn additional money to buy additional plugins in order to re-create the demo sound on my own system, I want to know ahead of time how much work, money, and plugins that would be. Because what I care about is how a product sounds on my own system, not how it sounds on a developer's website.

If a demo DAW project runs on my system, the company has shown me its product is ready to work for me. If it doesn't run on my system, at least now I can see what additional work I'd need to do in order to earn enough money to buy the additional plugins needed to fulfill the demo MP3's sound; and in the meantime, I can read reports from customers who do have enough plugins to fulfill the demo's sound (if there are any such customers), and I can learn from their reports.



cyoder @ Wed May 14 said:


> and if you have the sounds you already bought it, and if you already bought it you can't resell it due to the no-resale policy of many developers, so if you're wanting to stress test the files to judge whether to buy it or not, it's too late. It sounds like you're talking about a software demo + midi files (or project templates). Am I misunderstanding?


I'm not making assumptions about the amount of demo software companies offer. If another customer bought the full software and found that it does or does not function as promised, I can learn from his public reports; and we see this dynamic in action on this very forum. If I've already bought the software and it doesn't function as promised, and the developer doesn't want to refund my money, we can go to court and a jury can be shown what sound comes out when a "Recommended" system attempts to recreate the MP3 used in the developer's advertising. If this specter bothers certain developers, they can learn from VSL's business practices, because VSL is offering MIDI demos, and I've seen no customers complaining about their experiences running those MIDI demos.

I think your points are good, but I see these issues as solvable. Customers will reward those developers who find ways to advertise their products with demos that can be reproduced by the customer.


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## proxima (May 14, 2014)

BachRules @ Wed May 14 said:


> On the other hand, if a MIDI file _doesn't_ suffice to show off the project (e.g. plugins are needed), then back to my original post about DAW project files. My apologies if I've been careless in distinguishing between the two cases.
> [...]
> If a demo DAW project runs on my system, the company has shown me its product is ready to work for me. If it doesn't run on my system, at least now I can see what additional work I'd need to do in order to earn enough money to buy the additional plugins needed to fulfill the demo MP3's sound; and in the meantime, I can read reports from customers who do have enough plugins to fulfill the demo's sound (if there are any such customers), and I can learn from their reports.



I hesitate to write this given how you've responded to others here, but you seem to misunderstand what would be involved in recreating these demos, especially pre-purchase. These samples libraries run into the hundreds of gigabytes, and even still some demos may use unrelated libraries to round out the sounds (a string library demo might use percussion and a 3rd party reverb). For these larger libraries (that is, excluding things like synths) a demo just doesn't work. I'm baffled by how you would think a MIDI file would help you stress test a system before purchasing a library. Even a DAW project won't help you: it can embed audio files, but not the VST/AU instruments themselves! 

Having more information (e.g. MIDI files and some written documentation) about the demos can certainly speed up the learning curve _after_ purchase, by quickly mapping "this sound was made by doing that". For example, even just the short video by Efimov for the duduk library I bought on that recent sale both helped me decide to buy it as well as pick up a quick impression about how it works. The more popular libraries have people like Daniel James making videos about how they sound and some tricks for using them more effectively. The benefit of MIDI files on top of that is it lets you experiment for yourself with the sounds. I'd certainly appreciate it becoming more common, but not for the reasons you seem to want them.

I know you're angry at EW that Spaces is not working well on your system, but we get it. You won't be buying other EW products. Pretty much every sample library I've seen has a "no refunds" policy and many have "no resale" policies as well, which makes purchases more risky for the customer. Clearly in your case, you should focus on libraries and other plugins which are not as resource intensive and allow resale if you're unhappy.


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## BachRules (May 14, 2014)

proxima @ Wed May 14 said:


> I know you're angry at EW that Spaces is not working well on your system, but we get it.


You don't get it at all, because throughout this thread there are other customers expressing that they'd value DAW / MIDI demos too. I am flattered that you focus on me as a person instead of the general consumer demand in issue here -- at some point in my musical career, I can hope that choirboys like you will sing my name far and wide -- but your fixation on me as a person is a dysfunction on your part.



proxima @ Wed May 14 said:


> I hesitate to write this given how you've responded to others here


So don't write it then. It's not like I emailed you and begged for your input, so don't pretend you're doing me any favors. If you have other reasons for writing, what's your point in prepending your offensive introduction?


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## Daniel James (May 14, 2014)

> To put a fine point on it, I'd like to know how much I'd have to work to earn enough money to upgrade my computer from the "Recommended" specs to the specs actually needed to run the demo.



How would midi data tell you if you have the computer to run a library? I mean if you downloaded the DAW project you would have had to have already bought the product in the first place to USE the DAW project.....By which point your point of needing a DAW project to decide if to buy the library is irrelevant. 

But hey like the others this is my last post here. It just seems like you are arguing for the sake of it now so have fun with that. Anonymity on the internet does wonderful things to the behavior of some people haha. Had you been a little bit more relaxed about the whole thing I get the feeling some devs would have engaged in a meaningful discussion, but acting the way you are....you will be fighting an uphill battle 

-DJ


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## artsoundz (May 14, 2014)

Electrons and photons deleted


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## BachRules (May 14, 2014)

artsoundz @ Wed May 14 said:


> Bach,
> You are really coming off well here. In just a few posts you've managed to gain respect from the entire VI community and at the same time shown how knowledgable you are.
> Really, really impressive.
> I think we would all love to hear what wonderful music you've created on your commodore amiga.


I've never owned an Amiga, but I did manage to graduate from CCRMA, programmed "the world's first professional software synthesizer for the PC" (if my my boss's claim is true, which I'm not sure), engineered and programmed music software for Intel and Creative Labs, and sold music to video games. The music I sold was very bad music, but the buyer knew exactly what he was buying, so it was honest business.

Do you really speak for "the entire VI community", or you are just pretending because you're dissatisfied with the actual level of your own importance? When I see an individual on a forum pretending he's a spokesman for anyone but himself, I have to wonder what deficiency he's trying to compensate for.

My computer meets EW's "Recommended" criteria, so what's your 'Amiga' comment really about?


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## BachRules (May 14, 2014)

Daniel James @ Wed May 14 said:


> Anonymity on the internet does wonderful things to the behavior of some people haha.


Daniel, I'm Biard MacGuineas; Stanford class of 1993; a regular at Starbucks on University Ave in Tucson if you'd like to address me in person as you've done here.



Daniel James @ Wed May 14 said:


> Had you been a little bit more relaxed about the whole thing I get the feeling some devs would have engaged in a meaningful discussion, but acting the way you are....you will be fighting an uphill battle


Some developers aren't looking for a hug, they're looking to maximize profit, and they can take or leave any info in this thread. If you imagine I care whether devs engage me directly in this thread, may I suggest you are projecting your own priorities onto me, and that this is a mental malfunction on your part.



Daniel James @ Wed May 14 said:


> How would midi data tell you if you have the computer to run a library? I mean if you downloaded the DAW project you would have had to have already bought the product in the first place to USE the DAW project.....By which point your point of needing a DAW project to decide if to buy the library is irrelevant.


I addressed this above, in my reply to 'cyoder'.


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## Daniel James (May 14, 2014)

BachRules @ Wed May 14 said:


> Daniel James @ Wed May 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Anonymity on the internet does wonderful things to the behavior of some people haha.
> ...



Hey good on you for putting your name to all of this nonsense, I take back the anonymity comment. Now you're not just an anonymous troll, you are a troll named Biard 

I mean come on man surely you can see how aggressive you are coming off in this thread right. 

And I had a good chuckle when you said: " If you imagine I care whether devs engage me directly in this thread, may I suggest you are projecting your own priorities onto me, and that this is a mental malfunction on your part." when the title of the thread is directly appealing to developers "Developers: I would value sample projects" ....but hey I guess you will tell me how I am wrong again, because of my mental malfunctions. 

-DJ

p.s I know I said I was out but these trolls are too funny xD


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## Craig Sharmat (May 14, 2014)

Well Biard,

I think you have made your points and I being a guy who has made quite a few demos over the years, if I was compensated for those midi files I'd gladly hand them over, I think it is a good idea. 

That said you may wish to avoid Starbucks at this time of night and head to Gentle Bens.
Might make for a mellowed conversation.


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## BachRules (May 14, 2014)

Daniel James @ Wed May 14 said:


> I mean come on man surely you can see how aggressive you are coming off in this thread right.


I can see how non-aggressive I am in response to people who are non-aggressive towards me.


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## BachRules (May 15, 2014)

artsoundz @ Wed May 14 said:


> Look...we've all known for years what is required to run some EWQL instruments.


Who is this "we"? This is the "we" which joined vi-control.net in 2005 like you, as if that's any significant segment of current orchestral-library buyers? When I see an individual pretending he's a spokesman for anyone but himself, I still have to wonder what deficiency he's trying to compensate for. When I see him pretending there's no world outside an internet forum, I know his condition is serious.



artsoundz @ Wed May 14 said:


> My comments were tongue in cheek. I was having fun.


So you're one of those guys who's been on an internet forum for nine years and thinks it's fun to be offensive.



artsoundz @ Wed May 14 said:


> So, how on earth, with all your huffing and puffing, did you miss this? How can you not know this? This info is OLD.... You're fired!


You're arguing that EWQL is a bad choice for people who haven't spent nine years on vi-control.net. As for me, I wasn't following this forum in 2005. I was actually working on something else. So, don't hire me, and I'll just have to make do with customers who don't particularly care whether I've been following this forum since 2005.



artsoundz @ Wed May 14 said:


> I cant think of a slower learning process.


So you failed to learn from MIDI demos, and I can think of more than one possible reason you failed there. Why would I value your advice about making music? Who are you besides some guy nine years on an internet forum?



artsoundz @ Wed May 14 said:


> I think it speaks volumes to your obvious lack of experience.


And developers don't want money from "inexperienced" customers? Developers don't want money from people who value DAW / MIDI demos? Or you're just babbling about irrelevancies because you think it's "fun" to be offensive on this forum where you've been for nine years?


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## artsoundz (May 15, 2014)

Interesting perspective,Don.


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## StatKsn (May 15, 2014)

All I can say is... Tucson is a nice city. I liked my trip when I visited UoA 8) 

Personally I like a screen-cast demo with visible piano roll even better than MIDIs, but it seems to be a rare practice.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 15, 2014)

BachRules @ Wed May 14 said:


> Daniel James @ Wed May 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Anonymity on the internet does wonderful things to the behavior of some people haha.
> ...



You aren't by any chance Donald Biard MacGuineas?


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## BachRules (May 15, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu May 15 said:


> BachRules @ Wed May 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Daniel James @ Wed May 14 said:
> ...


Yes, but I don't go by 'Donald'.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 15, 2014)

BachRules @ Thu May 15 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu May 15 said:
> 
> 
> > BachRules @ Wed May 14 said:
> ...



I see, now I have some context. Good day sir.


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## BachRules (May 15, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu May 15 said:


> BachRules @ Thu May 15 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Thu May 15 said:
> ...


It's unclear how my name would be relevant to the fact that a lot of people, all with different names, are saying they would value sample projects.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 15, 2014)

Absolutely true, but it helps me understand the kind of arguments you make and the manner in which you make them. 

Apparently you are a lawyer which means that you argue for a living


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## playz123 (May 15, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu May 15 said:


> Absolutely true, but it helps me understand the kind of arguments you make and the manner in which you make them.
> 
> Apparently you are a lawyer which means that you argue for a living



BachRules, I suggest to you that this thread has become an example of how not to discuss a topic, and instead argue it, and in the process insult others as well. Congratulations; in the space of 51 posts (current count) and only a few months on the forum, you've managed to often insult and possibly alienate some of the fine people who contribute regularly here, and whose opinions are greatly respected. Not a record mind you, but certainly noteworthy. 

Your the topic was indeed one of interest, and many respondents obviously offered opinions on the subject. But it appears to me that, early on, discussion became overshadowed by attitude. Personally I don't care what you do for living; many others here have professional credentials as well. But in my opinion, no profession justifies your approach. You'll probably want to argue the points I've made too...oh, I forgot, you already did that.  In any case, my own approach now will be to simply to stay clear of your threads or posts in the future. Life is too short. Have a good day.


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## BachRules (May 15, 2014)

playz123 @ Thu May 15 said:


> Personally I don't care what you do for living; many others here have professional credentials as well.


And I never asked you to care, and I only mentioned my credentials in response to the imbecilic accusation that my computer was an Amiga.



playz123 @ Thu May 15 said:


> BachRules, I suggest to you that this thread has become an example of how not to discuss a topic, and instead argue it, and in the process insult others as well. Congratulations; in the space of 51 posts (current count) and only a few months on the forum, you've managed to often insult and possibly alienate....


playz123, back on page 1, you melodramatically announced you were leaving this thread, and no one on any side of this discussion objected to your decision, so what's your insulting, alienating sniveling doing here on page 3? Your compulsions to be offensive are so overpowering that you cannot even keep your word? I've been non-aggressive in response to everyone who's been non-aggressive towards me. As you cry about my response to other people's offensiveness, how can't I be flattered?



playz123 @ Thu May 15 said:


> my own approach now will be to simply to stay clear of your threads or posts in the future.


That's okay, but you can't be taken seriously because on page 1, you melodramatically announced you were leaving this thread, only to melodramatically return on page 3, even though no one had objected to your leaving.


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## bbunker (May 15, 2014)

OK. On the topic of project files and MIDI data.

Cristian Yoder's question about this is particularly on point. What good would MIDI data be to look at a Sample Library without having the Sample Library? And what good would Project Sessions/Files be without all of the libraries used in the session? Seems like one of the most basic questions that would need to be answered to take the idea seriously.

The other use that's been mentioned is educational: particularly for libraries like Orange Tree's where there's little standardization across libraries, say for guitars, basses, etc., then having MIDI files to see how all the strumming, hammer-on, picking, etc. scripts work would help to increase sales of those libraries. Having a tutorial MIDI file for something like EWQLSO seems more like it would be a 'general education' piece, since the skills in using it are basically the same for any other orchestral libraries.

Now...inform me how this is imbecilic. Please do refer to my earlier post to find fodder for some insults. Knock yourself out.


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## BachRules (May 15, 2014)

bbunker @ Thu May 15 said:


> Now...inform me how this is imbecilic.... Knock yourself out.


The most imbecilic part was when you wrote: "Now...inform me how this is imbecilic.... Knock yourself out." I've been non-offensive in response to every non-offensive post towards me; so, instead of simply staying "on the topic of project files and MIDI data", you added three offensive sentences at the end of your post, and that was pure imbecility on your part. Did you really not see that as you were doing it?



bbunker @ Thu May 15 said:


> Cristian Yoder's question about this is particularly on point. What good would MIDI data be to look at a Sample Library without having the Sample Library? And what good would Project Sessions/Files be without all of the libraries used in the session? Seems like one of the most basic questions that would need to be answered to take the idea seriously.


I've answered that twice already, on this page. Whether your missing it twice constitutes imbecility, I'll leave to the reader to decide.



bbunker @ Thu May 15 said:


> ... EWQLSO... the skills in using it are basically the same for any other orchestral libraries.


I have only used EWQLSO, so I can't speak from experience with other libraries, but from what I've read about them, the translation of skills from one library to another doesn't seem basic. There's no standardization in the implementation of legato; no standardization in the interpretation of CC values -- even something as simple as a volume controller may be interpreted differently by different libraries; different libraries approach divisi in very different ways; each library has its own idiosyncratic patches with idiosyncratic names. From EWQLSO manual:



> Names of the Articulations
> 
> ... Some of the terms used in EWQLSO articulations are more subjective. Because the terms are already descriptive, they are listed here without comment as to their meaning, for example:
> 
> ...


(And for what it's worth, I wouldn't want there to be any standardization across libraries, as it would stifle innovation.)

So I think the reality is more like:



EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 12 said:


> ... the techniques, other than the obvious ones, do not necessarily translate from library to library....


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## Stephen Rees (May 15, 2014)

Why not start a poll?

'If developers were to make project files and midi data of their demos available would it make you more likely to buy their product?'.

Answers 'Yes', 'No' or 'No Difference'.

If you get a high proportion of 'Yes' vote I expect developers will take note....


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## BachRules (May 15, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Thu May 15 said:


> Why not start a poll?
> 
> 'If developers were to make project files and midi data of their demos available would it make you more likely to buy their product?'.
> 
> ...


I'd encourage developers to gauge the demand, via polls or otherwise, and go with those results; but if it were polled here and now, I'd expect the segment of voters who ended up butt-hurt after attacking me to skew the results.


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## Lawson. (May 15, 2014)

BachRules @ Thu May 15 said:


> Stephen Rees @ Thu May 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Why not start a poll?
> ...



I doubt that. I'm sure everyone would vote on how they actually felt about the topic. Why would this thread change their opinion of it?

And yes, I think a poll is a great idea.


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## BachRules (May 15, 2014)

Lawson. @ Thu May 15 said:


> I doubt that. I'm sure everyone would vote on how they actually felt about the topic. Why would this thread change their opinion of it?


Some people are here as a substitute for real-life socialization, and I am not enabling their dysfunctions and delusional architectures, and they resent that, and it's more important to them than the quality of their own music. If it weren't for that, I'd start a poll.


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## artsoundz (May 15, 2014)

Duhhhhhleted


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## Lawson. (May 15, 2014)

BachRules @ Thu May 15 said:


> Lawson. @ Thu May 15 said:
> 
> 
> > I doubt that. I'm sure everyone would vote on how they actually felt about the topic. Why would this thread change their opinion of it?
> ...



That comment actually made my day. :lol:


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## artsoundz (May 15, 2014)

Deleted


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## BachRules (May 15, 2014)

artsoundz @ Thu May 15 said:


> ... Absolutely impossible without the specific libraries.... Impossible without the libraries themselves.


But you're absolutely wrong, because, for the 4th time:



BachRules @ Wed May 14 said:


> I'm not making assumptions about the amount of demo software companies offer. If another customer bought the full software and found that it does or does not function as promised, I can learn from his public reports; and we see this dynamic in action on this very forum. If I've already bought the software and it doesn't function as promised, and the developer doesn't want to refund my money, we can go to court and a jury can be shown what sound comes out when a "Recommended" system attempts to recreate the MP3 used in the developer's advertising. If this specter bothers certain developers, they can learn from VSL's business practices, because VSL is offering MIDI demos, and I've seen no customers complaining about their experiences running those MIDI demos.





artsoundz @ Thu May 15 said:


> What an awful thing to say.
> 
> We lost a valuable member today. http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... =1#3792003
> 
> Donald, this place is a great hang with really nice, helpful folks who are all human beings. They have been trying to help you.


In other words, you're a person who's behaving offensively, and you're only getting a pass here because you've been here nine years; you're a clown but people here are used to that.



artsoundz @ Thu May 15 said:


> In reading this thread and much of your court transcripts, I'm inclined to suggest that maybe VI control isn't a great fit for you.


And I give no weight to your suggestions. I do understand that you don't want me here, but that's just about you and your butt-hurt.



artsoundz @ Thu May 15 said:


> I think your style is just going to frustrate you again and again.


So you say, but your opinion is worthless. Who are you besides some guy nine years on an internet forum, with a supply of ridiculous opinions?


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## BachRules (May 16, 2014)

artsoundz @ Thu May 15 said:


> But, in a last ditch effort I want to offer these steps to save you future angst.
> 
> 1. Upgrade your pc to the optimal system recommended by ewql.


I don't need to, because yesterday EWQL acknowledged the bug in their software which was responsible for the audio problems on my system. Your advice was never requested, and it was bad advice. All you have is nine years on a forum, but no useful skill or knowledge.


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## Daniel James (May 16, 2014)

> artsoundz @ Thu May 15, 2014 1:58 pm wrote:
> What an awful thing to say.
> 
> We lost a valuable member today. http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... =1#3792003
> ...





> In other words, you're a person who's behaving offensively, and you're only getting a pass here because you've been here nine years; you're a clown but people here are used to that.



Wow Arts explains about the sad passing of a member, and how awesome this place and the people in it are, then you come back with zero compassion and carry on being an asshole.

I thought you were a troll before now I just think you're a cunt. 

-DJ


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## BachRules (May 16, 2014)

Daniel James @ Thu May 15 said:


> Wow Arts explains about the sad passing of a member, and how awesome this place and the people in it are, then you come back with zero compassion and carry on being an asshole.
> 
> I thought you were a troll before now I just think you're a cunt.


As if anyone's death is an excuse for your offensiveness. What an idiotic suggestion.


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## Guy Rowland (May 16, 2014)

This has become a poisonous thread. Lock it and burn it.


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## trumpoz (May 16, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Fri May 16 said:


> This has become a poisonous thread. Lock it and burn it.



Good suggestion.


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## BachRules (May 16, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Thu May 15 said:


> This has become a poisonous thread. Lock it and burn it.


What is a "poisonous" thread? Is that like a witch? Which thoughts and ideas have you so scared that you're calling for censorship?


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## Guy Rowland (May 16, 2014)

BachRules @ Fri May 16 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Thu May 15 said:
> 
> 
> > This has become a poisonous thread. Lock it and burn it.
> ...



Good grief.

I'm not getting dragged down into this pit of endless vitriol. Having read about Martin, it just seems inexcusable. I'm reporting this post only to highlight the recent thread as a whole, and hope this pointless personal abuse stops.


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## BachRules (May 16, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Thu May 15 said:


> BachRules @ Fri May 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Guy Rowland @ Thu May 15 said:
> ...


What does anyone's death have to do with any of this? What an idiotic suggestion that someone's death excuses artsoundz's offensiveness. You need to check yourself, fool. What if someone I know just died too? Would that give me some excuse to come here and be offensive to strangers? Outside the internet, do you attack strangers just because someone you know has died? Get over yourself, fool.


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## Hannes_F (May 16, 2014)

To all the members that reported posts in this thread (and there have been many): Your reports don't stay unnoticed.


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## BachRules (May 16, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Thu May 15 said:


> To all the members that reported posts in this thread (and there have been many): Your reports don't stay unnoticed.


For the record, none of those reports are from me. I don't report posts, even as people violate the rules and attack me, because I guess I'm just not afraid of ASCII on my screen.


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## artsoundz (May 16, 2014)

Deleted


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## BachRules (May 16, 2014)

artsoundz @ Fri May 16 said:


> ... I've had problems with the bastards myself.
> 
> Why just the other day, I met with a shrink because I was feeling low. .
> He asked me what the problem was. i told him that I had no confidence and felt hopeless.
> ...


I don't doubt you've had that experience with psychiatrists.



artsoundz @ Fri May 16 said:


> Again, save your energy for an upgrade.


Again you're dribbling unsolicited advice backed by no skill or knowledge.



artsoundz @ Fri May 16 said:


> anyone that can afford 25 machine guns can afford to build a pc.


I never denied that I could afford a room full of pc's, every orchestral library on the market, and a live orchestra. That's never been the issue, except in your mind.



artsoundz @ Fri May 16 said:


> getting your dumb ass outta here.


Why are you crying?



artsoundz @ Fri May 16 said:


> this is a community worth belonging to.


You're confusing the worthwhile aspect with the bad aspect, as if the helpful people here somehow excuse your own offensiveness. You're a leech on this forum.


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## artsoundz (May 16, 2014)

So you're saying I suck?


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## Przemek K. (May 16, 2014)

This is quite a thread here. I have done numerous demos for different developers over the years. Most recent, Vir2 (Acou6tics) and Chris Hein (CHW Complete). 
In all this time I wasn't asked to deliver a midi file or a daw project.
The first time this happened was when I was doing demos for Vir2 Electri6ity library, and this was only for the purpose of making a video showing the virtual instrument playing in realtime. I agreed to give them the mididfiles but on the condition that the midifiles will not be given away. 

When Chris asked me if I could give him the midifile and daw project, so he could give it to registered customers of his libraries I was very reluctant. I mean, although its a demo, it's still a piece of music, and I feel connected to it. I guess we all are to some extent. Its our creation, no?
So I was thinking, how to approach this. I understand that, it can help to study a daw project, but on the other hand there are so many implications, some of them already mentioned by Daniel James, Artsounds and so on. 
In my case I settled on a workaround. This was to take a demo to which didn't matter to me that much, and was simple enough to showcase the library. 
Which means, this demo has a sololine played by the VI and the rest of the playback I rendered as a stereo wav file. I deleted the rest of my template, leaving only the solo melody line, with all the tweaks I've done to it. And also the mastering chain.

Still, the problem remains that I only have Cubase, and there are so many different daws, sonar, protools, logic, reaper... My cubase project can't be loaded into them. Even earlier cubase versions like sx1 to 4 can't load the project because it was created in version 5 which had new plugins like reverence (convolution reverb) and this was not included in them.
So there will always be a trade off. I gave the midi file , the nki fle which had my settings and the playback wav. And if you load them in logic or whatever daw of preference it would sound different, because the mastering chain I created + the eq/comp settings on the solo melody line were also gone. I can only guess that there would be people out there which would still be maybe angry, because it would sound different compared to the finished demo on my daw.

I also struggle with decisions on which library to purchase. I guess most of us are, but sometimes you have to take the plunge, and work it out. Learn the purchased library/ies in and out, and give your best and push yourself to become better in using it/them. This is my personal experience, after staying for so many years with VSL Opus1/2 and other libs ( yeah, I'm also a starving composer) but that helped me to polish my skills even more. And thats why I understand why many composers don't want to give their daw projects...because its a hell lot of work. Sure, it would be nice to have a daw project or midifile from TJ, Colin, Craig, Simon Ravn and others of course too, but I understand if they would say no . Sometimes one have to learn the skills the hard way. My opinion.

When I was creating a mockup of Baden Powells Solitude on guitar, I learned so much, and as fascinating it would be for some potential customers to get hands on my midifile for it, it won't happen. In this case not so much because I don't want to share knowledge, but rather because its so freakin messy.

I wouldn't have a problem give developers my daw project demos, but they would have to be specifically created for this purpose alone. Short, and to the point. Even better, tutorial videos.

Personally I do like tutorial videos like the ones by Daniel James. Because you additionally get the explanations why some of the choices were made during creation of the music. With a daw project you don't.

Now, what possibilities do we customers have to get a reasonable opinion ( to a certain degree) on a possible product before purchase?

We have demos (dressed and undressed -> great) 
We have videotutorials -> also great
We have Trysound-> the best IMO but limited to kontaktplayer only ( no play,no mach5..)

How about, if developers could just create one or two patches ( example: staccato and sustain/legato) with limited range (1 to 1 1/2 octave) limited vel layers, limited rr.
That way one could try the demo patch/es out and get much beter opinion on how it sounds how it plays and so on. That would by my personal preference.


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## artsoundz (May 16, 2014)

Spitfire did this with Sable. However, that would be a minimal use of the library but it Wouldnt address the issue of the library working on a particular system.


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## Przemek K. (May 16, 2014)

Didn't know that Spitfire did this. I know that Chris Hein and Cinematicstrings did this.
And in the old gigastudio days this approach was quite common.
But you are right, it still wouldn't adress the problem with a particular library working on a given system, but at least you could try it out a bit.

Try sound is still the best option here I guess but its limited to kontaktplayer libraries and not all of them can't be tried out there. It sure would be great if kontakt based libraries like 8dio Adagio could be tried out that way. But hey, I love their demos so...fingers crossed


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## artsoundz (May 16, 2014)

I think its a great idea. The Sable demo had an octave for 3 instruments with all arts included. Brilliant. One can make music with those. It just made me want it even more.


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## Przemek K. (May 16, 2014)

That sounds great. Is it still available?


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## BachRules (May 16, 2014)

Przemek K. @ Fri May 16 said:


> ... When Chris asked me if I could give him the midifile and daw project, so he could give it to registered customers of his libraries I was very reluctant. I mean, although its a demo, it's still a piece of music, and I feel connected to it. I guess we all are to some extent. Its our creation, no?


I don't want MIDI files from composers who are reluctant; I only want MIDI files from composers who want to sell MIDI files, like the composers providing MIDI files to VSL and Propellerhead:

http://www.vsl.co.at/en/67/702/252.vsl
http://www.propellerheads.se/download/r ... emo-songs/

... and the composers in this thread who say they'd provide MIDI files if compensated sufficiently. These composers are creators with a connection to their creations too.



Przemek K. @ Fri May 16 said:


> ... yeah, I'm also a starving composer....


It seems compensation for your MIDI files could come in handy there.



Przemek K. @ Fri May 16 said:


> many composers don't want to give their daw projects...because its a hell lot of work.


I'm not understanding this. When I do a hell of a lot of work, I like receiving compensation for my work.



Przemek K. @ Fri May 16 said:


> ... I understand if they would say no . Sometimes one have to learn the skills the hard way. My opinion.


This time, no one has to learn the skills the hardest way, thanks to the composers who are willing to release MIDI files. It's just an available profession for composers, and no composer should be forced into it if he doesn't want to be a part of it.


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## artsoundz (May 16, 2014)

Its reasonable, I think to privately offer a composer $ for a demo file. It might cost you a couple grand, but if you have deep pockets, then that might go a long way to accomplishing your goal.


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## artsoundz (May 16, 2014)

Przemek K. @ Fri May 16 said:


> That sounds great. Is it still available?



Hey Przemek, 
I just took a look at the Spitfire site and dont see the demo anymore. 
I would imagine that if you contacted Them, they might hook you up with a copy. 

You're one of Them, after all. : )


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## pkm (May 16, 2014)

BachRules @ Wed May 14 said:


> I'm not making assumptions about the amount of demo software companies offer. If another customer bought the full software and found that it does or does not function as promised, I can learn from his public reports; and we see this dynamic in action on this very forum. If I've already bought the software and it doesn't function as promised, and the developer doesn't want to refund my money, we can go to court and a jury can be shown what sound comes out when a "Recommended" system attempts to recreate the MP3 used in the developer's advertising. If this specter bothers certain developers, they can learn from VSL's business practices, because VSL is offering MIDI demos, and I've seen no customers complaining about their experiences running those MIDI demos.



I may be alone here, but I don't think demos should have to only be created with the "recommended" system requirements.


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## artsoundz (May 16, 2014)

Deleted


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## BachRules (May 16, 2014)

pkm @ Fri May 16 said:


> BachRules @ Wed May 14 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not making assumptions about the amount of demo software companies offer. If another customer bought the full software and found that it does or does not function as promised, I can learn from his public reports; and we see this dynamic in action on this very forum. If I've already bought the software and it doesn't function as promised, and the developer doesn't want to refund my money, we can go to court and a jury can be shown what sound comes out when a "Recommended" system attempts to recreate the MP3 used in the developer's advertising. If this specter bothers certain developers, they can learn from VSL's business practices, because VSL is offering MIDI demos, and I've seen no customers complaining about their experiences running those MIDI demos.
> ...


Do customers care how the product sounds on their own machines? Is it worth it to sell more products in the short run, by leaving customers with the wrong impression about how the product will sound on their own machines; or is it better in the long run to leave your customers satisfied?

If you post "recommended" specs on your website but post demos which can't be recreated by "recommended" systems, what will a jury decide if a customer sues you?

This is a question for each developer to consider.


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## trumpoz (May 17, 2014)

Using Hollywood Strings as an example (as I don't own any of the other big-name ones). 

It would be technically possible to recreate the demos with just the recommended system specs. It would mean rendering tracks to audio throughout the process instead of having all tracks streaming samples from disk in real time. Rendering to audio was quite common in the past when people didn't have the money for a master/slave setup and before SSD's and 32GB ram were even remotely realistic.

The largest patches from HS load approx 1-1.5GB of pre-buffer samples in to RAM so even using a machine with minimum specs it should even be possible with a machine with the minimum specs (though it may very well choke). 

Is that an effective way to work nowadays? Probably not. But it could be done. 

As a side note, there have been posts in the past on the Soundsonline forums asking Nick Pheonix and Thomas Bergensen about reverb setups, EQ etc. The HS demos from those two composers were done with QL spaces (Nick also posted the reverbs he uses) and some minor EQ adjustments.


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## artsoundz (May 17, 2014)

Deleted


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## proxima (May 17, 2014)

trumpoz @ Sat May 17 said:


> It would be technically possible to recreate the demos with just the recommended system specs. It would mean rendering tracks to audio throughout the process instead of having all tracks streaming samples from disk in real time.
> [...]
> Is that an effective way to work nowadays? Probably not. But it could be done.


It's interesting how expectations rose with regard to real-time playback. For professionals, of course it makes sense to throw enough money at hardware to do everything in real time, because modest time savings can translate into serious productivity and money gains. They do everything in real time because it's feasible, not because it's necessary.

For amateurs/hobbyists who aren't spending 8-12 hours a day in their DAW, freezing some intense tracks can be a totally reasonable tradeoff.


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## Przemek K. (May 18, 2014)

artsoundz @ Fri May 16 said:


> Przemek K. @ Fri May 16 said:
> 
> 
> > That sounds great. Is it still available?
> ...



Thanks for taking time to look into it. I'll give it a go and contact them.


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## Przemek K. (May 18, 2014)

proxima @ Sat May 17 said:


> It's interesting how expectations rose with regard to real-time playback. For professionals, of course it makes sense to throw enough money at hardware to do everything in real time, because modest time savings can translate into serious productivity and money gains. They do everything in real time because it's feasible, not because it's necessary.
> 
> For amateurs/hobbyists who aren't spending 8-12 hours a day in their DAW, freezing some intense tracks can be a totally reasonable tradeoff.



It sure is. Although nowadays we have access to really powerful tech for less money than a decade or more ago. SSD's are getting cheaper, Intel i7 cpu's are also affordable and so on. My previous workstation few years ago had only 2 gigs of ram, later I got another one with 2 gigs, but now I'm using a quad core with 8 gigs, which is modest compared to what
one could have. 

Working in realtime gives the most options, especially if you want to change things here and there one the fly. I kinda resent freezing, which I had to do some years ago. Never want get back to that.


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## kitekrazy (May 18, 2014)

At one time Project Sam use to have demos you could actually play on your system. Kirk Hunter did something recently where you could demo his latest library.

I don't trust my ears enough with mp3s.


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## JohnG (May 24, 2014)

bbunker @ 14th May 2014 said:


> Seriously, are there not enough "Russian Film Composers" running around grabbing Soundcloud files, throwing a synth part on them and spamming them around RF sites?



Hello bbunker,

I realise you are alluding to a specific issue with this post. Please be sensitive, however, to the possibility that your words could be received as a general attack on those of Russian extraction. I am sure you did not intend that but just be on the lookout for it in future.

Kind regards,

Your Moderator


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## bbunker (May 24, 2014)

John, I couldn't agree with you more.

Anyone not aware of previous events could have read that in a way I hadn't intended, and the language I used was...well, stupid. Post deleted.


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