# How to Get Work as a Modern Composer



## ChrisSiuMusic (Apr 4, 2020)

Hi all. It's a difficult time for many of us, having lost much of our jobs and gigs. With a few people asking how to get work in composing/arranging, and get started in terms of being noticed in this industry, I wanted to put together a video regarding this topic.

I believe that this is not only relevant to the music industry, but the audio industry as a whole. Feel free to leave any questions you may have!


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## Iswhatitis (Apr 4, 2020)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Hi all. It's a difficult time for many of us, having lost much of our jobs and gigs. With a few people asking how to get work in composing/arranging, and get started in terms of being noticed in this industry, I wanted to put together a video regarding this topic.
> 
> I believe that this is not only relevant to the music industry, but the audio industry as a whole. Feel free to leave any questions you may have!



Becoming a successful film and tv composer is extremely difficult and luck plays the most important role not persistence, hard work, determination, talent, virtue, charisma, and sacrifice. There are many successful A-list film and tv composers whose talent ranges from great to solid to mediocre. 

The easiest ways to make it: your dad is a famous film composer or A-list producer/director, you are a famous pop/rock artist first, you apprentice with a top A-list film composer for a while first, your best friend or college buddy is a film director who gets on the A-list and keeps hiring you for his projects, you work as a top session/touring musician first for famous pop artists or film recording sessions, you first become a top orchestrator for A-list film composers, or you are preposterously lucky and meet the right people at the right time who love your reel and want to hire you. All of the aforementioned is not in anyone’s control.

You can work on a ton of independent low budget films making practically no money forever and that will probably not lead anywhere. You can befriend students in film school and do their film projects for free and they will probably not ever become A-list directors. You can network and schmooze your brains out with A-list producers and directors for decades but they probably won’t hire you since they already have 2-3 A-list film composers they work with.

I’m the end, there are people who will succeed and become top composers in the film and tv biz, but it’s so difficult to assume that you will be the one to make it that I personally feel IMHO that it’s the wrong career path for anyone to pursue. Yes, one may get a break to compose for film, tv and video projects for low pay here and there, but to be able to truly build a long stable career where one is getting paid enough to buy a house, car, provide for a family and children and save for retirement is extremely elusive for a few people in the biz who are not necessarily the most talented at all at what they do they simply got lucky.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Apr 4, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> Becoming a successful film and tv composer is extremely difficult and luck plays the most important role not persistence, hard work, determination, talent, virtue, charisma, and sacrifice. There are many film and tv composers whose talent ranges from great to solid to mediocre.
> 
> The easiest ways to make it: your dad is a famous film composer or A-list producer/director, you are a famous pop/rock artist first, you apprentice with a top A-list film composer for a while first, your best friend or college buddy is a film director who gets on the A-list and keeps hiring you for his projects, you work as a top session/touring musician first for famous pop artists or film recording sessions, you first become a top orchestrator for A-list film composers, or you are preposterously lucky and meet the right people at the right time who love your reel and want to hire you. All of the aforementioned is not in anyone’s control.
> 
> ...


All great points. I should clarify that this video is intended more for the composer who is starting out in their path, not necessarily aiming to work with A-list directors and orchestrators. To use myself as an example, I work with directors and other musicians who are simply looking to get their work out there, and ask me to create mockups for them in order to achieve that next level of polish.

In terms of the top of the game, luck is absolutely essential. You need to be in the right place at the right time.


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## Iswhatitis (Apr 4, 2020)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> All great points. I should clarify that this video is intended more for the composer who is starting out in their path, not necessarily aiming to work with A-list directors and orchestrators. To use myself as an example, I work with directors and other musicians who are simply looking to get their work out there, and ask me to do mockup for them in order to achieve that next level of polish.
> 
> In terms of the top of the game, luck is absolutely essential. You need to be in the right place at the right time.


I totally agree with you, Chris. I also should mention that I’ve spoken with most of the top Broadway producers in the biz as well and they all say the same thing about how to create a successful Broadway show. They all say luck plays the most important role why a show succeeds not anything else.


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## muk (Apr 4, 2020)

These are two opinions that often come up when a career in film/tv music is being discussed: 1) anyone can do it. You just need to work hard and persevere, then everything is possible 2) it's impossible to earn a living in that business. There are way too many composers, many of them work for free to try to make the cut. And no matter how talented you are, luck is the only deciding factor. There is only a small handful of very lucky people who actually make it. The rest is epically screwed.

My experience in this field is extremely limited. So I am probably a terrible person to give advice in that regard. Take my ramble below with a large pinch of salt, then.

Anyway, from my limited experience, both views are wrong, and both are right. Depending on what you are actually talking about.

View 2) is talking about becoming a super reach and famous a-list hollywood composer, or a rich game and tv composer. That's unlikely to happen no matter what you do, very true. (Still I'd argue that skill plays a role in that as well, not luck alone).

1) is talking about earning a decent living as a composer/musician. If you are creative, and not dead set about working exclusively on films/games, your chances of earning a decent living wage are not that bad. You can arrange, do the mockup services Chris mentions in his video, gig if you are an instrumentalist, teach, write production music.

I don't know enough about the industry to tell how hard it is to make a living from it. From my own experience, I am working in the classical music biz, earning my living from that. As a hobby I have written production music. That music has aired on tv stations all around the world. I enjoyed creating it. I am happy that it is being used and sells well. It brings in some money on the side too. I have not produced anywhere near enough music to earn a sustainable income from it. But if I take it as an indicator, it seems possible to me if I had more time to invest in it.

Now it depends on how you look at it. You could say that I failed as a tv composer. No single person on earth would recognise any music from me, or has ever heard my name as a composer. Ok, my girlfriend and my parents do. But I suspect that they are slightly biased. On the other hand, millions of people (it's no exaggeration, it's really millions) have heard music that I have written subconsciously, as a background in the tv programs they were watching. And I am just one guy creating music at his computer as a hobby. To me that is mind-boggling.

Anyway, that's my experience with creating production music, for whatever it is worth.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Apr 4, 2020)

muk said:


> These are two opinions that often come up when a career in film/tv music is being discussed: 1) anyone can do it. You just need to work hard and persevere, then everything is possible 2) it's impossible to earn a living in that business. There are way too many composers, many of them work for free to try to make the cut. And no matter how talented you are, luck is the only deciding factor. There is only a small handful of very lucky people who actually make it. The rest is epically screwed.
> 
> My experience in this field is extremely limited. So I am probably a terrible person to give advice in that regard. Take my ramble below with a large pinch of salt, then.
> 
> ...


Precisely, well said. Finding several streams of passive income is the key to long term stability, in my opinion.


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## jbuhler (Apr 4, 2020)

Robert Faulkner wrote an interesting and still mostly relevant book on the sociology of film and television composers called Music on Demand. It’s definitely worth reading. He is writing about the situation around 1980 and describes the field as highly oversaturated. He also attributes success primarily to luck with the caveat that the underlying problem is not simply a severe oversupply of composers but also and more importantly that the vast majority of them are competent and highly qualified. That makes film and television composers an interesting sociological topic and he is quite interested in how composers talk about the situation. Faulkner describes it in a way that his insights seem applicable to fields like academics which also has a massive oversupply of well qualified candidates. Faulkner also wrote an interesting book on Hollywood studio musicians, where he discusses freelancing and how musicians orient themselves in it. (Faulkner wrote the latter book about the situation around 1970, a time Hollywood was still reorganizing after the collapse of the studio system and a shift to freelance work.)


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## dannymc (Apr 10, 2020)

muk said:


> These are two opinions that often come up when a career in film/tv music is being discussed: 1) anyone can do it. You just need to work hard and persevere, then everything is possible 2) it's impossible to earn a living in that business. There are way too many composers, many of them work for free to try to make the cut. And no matter how talented you are, luck is the only deciding factor. There is only a small handful of very lucky people who actually make it. The rest is epically screwed.
> 
> My experience in this field is extremely limited. So I am probably a terrible person to give advice in that regard. Take my ramble below with a large pinch of salt, then.
> 
> ...



well i wouldnt called that failed at all. i would call that pretty successful and something you should be proud of. there are many out there who have never even come close to having their music aired on television so you should appreciate what you have achieved and keep pushing forward. the end goal does not always have to be becoming the next Hans Zimmer. you can aim for a decent living in music for media business without becoming an A list hollywood composer.


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## muk (Apr 10, 2020)

Thank you Danny! I am very happy with what I have achieved so far, and it's great motivation to see your music actually being used. And yes, there are ways to earn a decent living with creating music if you are not fixated on becoming world famous.


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## Macrawn (Apr 12, 2020)

Some of the same rules apply to the art world in general. It is extremely hard unless you are well connected.

It also reminds me of futures trading. I think something like 80 plus percent or more of all people who try to trade futures lose money or are not profitable after costs at the end of a year, but they keep getting up and trying until they run out of money. This is the heavy day traders, not Joe down the street. He loses money like 95 percent of the time at the end of the year. The people who make money in futures are the ones selling how to futures trade books, programs and so forth, get rich quick ideas or the brokers charging the commissions on the actual trades. Brokers are the real winners. The majority of people who make money in music, sell products of some kind (not songs). They sell libraries, intructional programs, and so forth. As far as composers go, I imagine like 1 percent of people who compose make a living just composing? That's probably an overestimate right? 

Every guy making libraries is a composer. The ones really making a living doing this are selling something to you in addition to maybe getting some gigs here and there. 

The best advice I think is learn to be satisfied with just making the music because ultimately, it isn't going to bring home the bread, and if it eventually does, it won't be for a very long time. Majoity of people will have moved on to something that makes actual money by then anyway but hopefully will continue the hobby. Maybe the best path is to find another path into it where the real money is.


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## Mishabou (Apr 12, 2020)

You don't need to be an A-list composer to make a good living. I work on a regular basis with composers people probably never heard of who make an excellent living and they have been at it for decades.

From personal experience, if you're talented and persevere, opportunities (what you guys call ''luck'') will come knocking.


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## Iswhatitis (Apr 12, 2020)

Mishabou said:


> You don't need to be an A-list composer to make a good living. I work on a regular basis with composers people probably never heard of who make an excellent living and they have been at it for decades.
> 
> From personal experience, if you're talented and persevere, opportunities (what you guys call ''luck'') will come knocking.


I know plenty of people who are talented and persevere and opportunities do not come knocking. Luck is the most important part of success in any business, especially being a composer. Whoever you know that is succeeding is very lucky, most people don't.


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## asherpope (Apr 12, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> I know plenty of people who are talented and persevere and opportunities do not come knocking. Luck is the most important part of success in any business, especially being a composer. Whoever you know that is succeeding is very lucky, most people don't.


True to a point, buy I'd argue that talent and perseverance are a given, if you're not getting yourself out there by hustling and reaching out to directors, producers, music libraries etc it's unlikely that you get anywhere at all.
Also I think the whole idea of 'making it' is flawed. It's not like a switch is flipped where you're suddenly a successful film/tv/library composer. Generally it's years of building up a portfolio of work and fostering good relationships and (hopefully) generating growing income from your work. Its not a binary 'youre either an a Lister working for Remote Control or you're nothing' situation. No one knows any of my music at all, I've never worked on anything big budget or been hired to score a tv series, but I make a living (a modest one, but a living) composing for small custom jobs and library music and I'm sure the majority of working composers are doing the same...not working on Marvel movies.

Muk mentioned being looked at as a 'failed tv composer' but there are plenty of composers working in film and TV who get great gigs but still have to fight to get the jobs they want, and often don't succeed. These people aren't failures, they just work on something else. It happens in every industry- architecture firms don't win every bid for example


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## Bluemount Score (Apr 12, 2020)

I always feel kinda depressed after reading through conversations like this


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## purple (Apr 12, 2020)

These days, getting any job in media is much much easier the more skills you have, and with software and instant access to the entire sum of human knowledge (the internet) making those skills _very _easy to get, there's no reason you cannot be competent in a number of areas. The more skills you have, the more gigs you get. I can compose, I can make great mockups, mix, master, edit video, edit photos, shoot photos and videos, record voiceover, foley, sound design, etc. I can't tall you how many gigs I've gotten where I've had to do some mix of most of those things. Multimedia clients who have no idea what they are doing love to just hand their project to someone who does and trust they will get it done right. And they will pay well when you do. Especially business people. They love to throw money at good marketing and promo videos, but most smaller businesses don't have a massive marketing department. The reality of the market is changing. You can't expect to be just getting into the industry _now _and just specialize in something unless, like stated above, you're one of the lucky few who happens to be best friends with the next Spielberg. Other than that, trying to get internships at post-production houses and the likes can pave a path to a pretty good, but still somewhat specialized living.


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## SamC (Apr 14, 2020)

asherpope said:


> True to a point, buy I'd argue that talent and perseverance are a given, if you're not getting yourself out there by hustling and reaching out to directors, producers, music libraries etc it's unlikely that you get anywhere at all.
> Also I think the whole idea of 'making it' is flawed. It's not like a switch is flipped where you're suddenly a successful film/tv/library composer. Generally it's years of building up a portfolio of work and fostering good relationships and (hopefully) generating growing income from your work. Its not a binary 'youre either an a Lister working for Remote Control or you're nothing' situation. No one knows any of my music at all, I've never worked on anything big budget or been hired to score a tv series, but I make a living (a modest one, but a living) composing for small custom jobs and library music and I'm sure the majority of working composers are doing the same...not working on Marvel movies.
> 
> Muk mentioned being looked at as a 'failed tv composer' but there are plenty of composers working in film and TV who get great gigs but still have to fight to get the jobs they want, and often don't succeed. These people aren't failures, they just work on something else. It happens in every industry- architecture firms don't win every bid for example



Agree with all of this. As someone who just turned 30 and am a composer for a living, people sometimes say “wow, that’s lucky.” They don’t see the 10 years of constant creative output, the anxiety, the never ending feeling that you’re no way near good enough, the industry meetings leading to nowhere, the failed pitches, the burn out, the unease of self employment, the days where you feel musically spent but still have to deliver.

Then when you meet people you admire in the industry and they’re all just normal dudes and women with the same hard days but have decades more struggle behind them.

A lot of people see this profession as very binary — you’re either killing it and living the high life or you’re a failed wannabe. There are actually lots of opportunity and true masters of their craft who labour in obscurity. You never stop learning and never really “make it.” You’re work hopefully just grows with you.

All I can say is, I was extremely pessimistic about this business when I started and I didn’t think I‘d make a living writing music for picture. As of now it’s afforded me a life I feel grateful to have. I can take a holiday and I can pay my rent and save for the future — I can’t ask for more than that. Every time I get paid in this business I value it so much and it inspires me to hunker down and really work my butt off. Where I’ll be in the future, who knows, but I’ve never felt “lucky” or special. I just keep working even through the dark days.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Apr 14, 2020)

My parents were quite skeptical of the whole business in the first place, and rightfully so. Nothing is guaranteed, really. Hard work and motivation are keys to earning income from this industry, and they're finally starting to see it pay off. We can do this


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## Beluga (Apr 15, 2020)

No offense ChrisSuiMusic. I'm always amazed at people explaining things to others when they themselves don't seem to be anywhere near succeeding. I'm sorry but I found the presentation dry and boring. Man, what have YOU done that you can give advice about getting work? Have you had a significant success in the business to share your experience? Do you have a NEW way of approaching things? How can you say: OK, this is true, this is not? It's so hard and I have been at it much longer than you have. And here it is: Most of my successes cannot be reproduced, not even by myself. Most of it is random and there really is not much to understand about it. I'm personally still looking for answers and haven't figured it out.

So I hope this is helpful for your future videos: Tell me why I should care. Tell me why you know better than me. Tell me something new. 

Sorry for being negative but it really sounds like a school presentation to me.


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## toomanynotes (Apr 15, 2020)

Beluga said:


> Sorry for being negative but it really sounds like a school presentation to me.


Yep, you speak passionately, I like that, but it's probably aimed at younglings and self promotion. Dangling the carrot..


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Apr 15, 2020)

Beluga said:


> No offense ChrisSuiMusic. I'm always amazed at people explaining things to others when they themselves don't seem to be anywhere near succeeding. I'm sorry but I found the presentation dry and boring. Man, what have YOU done that you can give advice about getting work? Have you had a significant success in the business to share your experience? Do you have a NEW way of approaching things? How can you say: OK, this is true, this is not? It's so hard and I have been at it much longer than you have. And here it is: Most of my successes cannot be reproduced, not even by myself. Most of it is random and there really is not much to understand about it. I'm personally still looking for answers and haven't figured it out.
> 
> So I hope this is helpful for your future videos: Tell me why I should care. Tell me why you know better than me. Tell me something new.
> 
> Sorry for being negative but it really sounds like a school presentation to me.


Hi Beluga, no offence taken! I appreciate that question, in fact I've received it quite a few times already. To me, it really depends on your own personal definition of success. As I mentioned previously, I would have never thought I would earn anything from working in composition/arrangement, but ever since starting this channel and uploading material, composing/arranging has supplemented my main income from teaching piano/theory. This provided me with some insight into how this work came about, and how these concepts apply to any other field.

I totally see where you're coming from, and everything on the 'Is this all true?' slide is what I've personally done to get work myself. If it didn't work for me, I certainly wouldn't be talking about it. It's certainly not easy, and I would never say it is! It takes time, consistency, and regular output. It's been helping increase and supplement my main source of income, so because of this, I wanted to share with anyone else willing to watch how this came together for me. Hence the title is 'How To Get Work as a Modern Composer', which is aimed more towards someone starting out and looking to make a name for themselves in the industry, vs. something super pretentious like 'How to be successful like John Williams in 3 Easy Steps'. No one can guarantee something like that, and shouldn't. 

Every person's definition of success is different, so if that means landing one MIDI orchestration gig for one person, that's amazing. Someone else may view success as being able to work on a large Hollywood film, which is totally fair as well! Speaking of business in general, I did a livestream yesterday going deeper into my background, how people find my material, and ask me to work on their projects. I won't link to it here, but I just wanted to let you know about it in case you're at all interested to see how I present things in more of a live setting!  

I'll keep your points in mind for the future, thank you!


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Apr 15, 2020)

toomanynotes said:


> Yep, you speak passionately, I like that, but it's probably aimed at younglings and self promotion. Dangling the carrot..


Hi there! Yes, I would say that this video is what I would show someone just starting out in the industry and wondering how to land their first few gigs. I would not/could not show somebody how to work in Hollywood as a triple A composer, as I have no experience with that myself. Thanks for watching nonetheless.


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## Beluga (Apr 15, 2020)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Hi Beluga, no offence taken! I appreciate that question, in fact I've received it quite a few times already. To me, it really depends on your own personal definition of success. As I mentioned previously, I would have never thought I would earn anything from working in composition/arrangement, but ever since starting this channel and uploading material, composing/arranging has supplemented my main income from teaching piano/theory. This provided me with some insight into how this work came about, and how these concepts apply to any other field.
> 
> I totally see where you're coming from, and everything on the 'Is this all true?' slide is what I've personally done to get work myself. If it didn't work for me, I certainly wouldn't be talking about it. It's certainly not easy, and I would never say it is! It takes time, consistency, and regular output. It's been helping increase and supplement my main source of income, so because of this, I wanted to share with anyone else willing to watch how this came together for me. Hence the title is 'How To Get Work as a Modern Composer', which is aimed more towards someone starting out and looking to make a name for themselves in the industry, vs. something super pretentious like 'How to be successful like John Williams in 3 Easy Steps'. No one can guarantee something like that, and shouldn't.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I guess so. If you would have called the thread « How to get started as a composer » it would have been fine. But being a modern composer myself I was hoping for some new insight.  Anyway good for you that you got your business going and wishing you lots of success!


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Apr 15, 2020)

Beluga said:


> Yeah, I guess so. If you would have called the thread « How to get started as a composer » it would have been fine. But being a modern composer myself I was hoping for some new insight.  Anyway good for you that you got your business going and wishing you lots of success!


You as well!  Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.


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## Mukkenerd (Jun 18, 2020)

muk said:


> These are two opinions that often come up when a career in film/tv music is being discussed: 1) anyone can do it. You just need to work hard and persevere, then everything is possible 2) it's impossible to earn a living in that business. There are way too many composers, many of them work for free to try to make the cut. And no matter how talented you are, luck is the only deciding factor. There is only a small handful of very lucky people who actually make it. The rest is epically screwed.


 
On the 2 points you shared with us that often came up in your carreer:

About point 1), that anyone can do it with hard work etc., that is to some degree ridiculous (i am not talking about your opinion, just the opinion you came across and shared with us). Because without any musical talent, and i mean not just being able to put melodies together and produce well, you will not achieve anything in the long run. You can learn everything with time and hard work, but you can`t learn creativity or musicality. Thats just in you or not. There are many guitar shredders who can play the craziest things to ever cross the human realm, but if they try to create something of their own they very often fail because they are technicians and not real artists who can create something that is sustainable and evokes deep emotions and resonance.

I often read that that the advice to newbies in this sector is „be yourself. We only need one Hans Zimmer not thousands“ And that is so true. Hard work will you only get this far, but when it comes to be original and unique, that`s where the whole journey ends, if your not able to create something new and interesting. That`s the hard part, because many composers want to please the audience rather than to do something another way or something new. It takes courage and self confidence. But in a sector that is mainly driven by economics it`s very understandable to take no risks in that regard. Only with a uniqueness and talent this above mentioned opinion is durable and can be fulfilled. And of course you need the luck of being at the right time at the right place kind of thing.

About point 2), it doesn`t matter how many composers are out there at the same time, while you are trying to get attention and jobs. You have to be outstanding and special, then you need talent and skill, while having perseverance and balls. But that is true in every imaginable sector or industry. So if you are not checking all these boxes, well, than it`s going to be a tough and exhausting route. If you are not willing to be the best or even able to be so, than you got to find a way and manage it otherwise to sustain a living of it. That`s sadly the truth about the most of us. But i think in general we are doing what we do because we love it. And that`s the most important thing of all, i think.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jun 18, 2020)

The thing with "making it" as a composer is that even _if _you win the lottery and get successful, you _still_ need to work crazy hard. And that's wrong. You shouldn't work hard. Hard work is a terrible and nonsensical ideal. Especially for musicians.


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## dgburns (Jun 18, 2020)

There’s lots of work you can do as a modern composer-

You can wash dishes
Work at Home Depot
Sweep floors
Code stuff
Work in sales
Work in Music Retail (no, don’t do that)
Work at Amazon (no, don’t to this either)
Work in IT (ok make money)
Work on set ( no don’t do this either)
Be a bum (atleast you’ll have your freedom)
Be a score composer (careful what you wish for)
Be a Library Composer (better you then me)

sarcasm people, I’m joking.


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## Daryl (Jun 19, 2020)

What is success? There are many different definitions.


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## Consona (Jun 19, 2020)

One funny story:

I'm totally unknown, don't do any self-promotion, any youtube, nothing...

Saw some evocative card game art on a game forum, which to me was that cool that I wrote some music inspired by it and put it into that forum thread.
The game creator/director heard it, contacted me that they made a deal with some european distribution company and will be making an electronic version and want me to do the music. Or even just a soundtrack to the tabletop version (he really liked my music or something :D).
And that I could even possibly make music for their other electronic tabletop-based games (it was some space-themed stuff.)

I lol'd, said that my composition and mixing skills are not up to par to do such a thing and wished him and the co. godspeed with their projects.

So, like, you can read all that stuff about oversaturation of the market and the importance of self-promotion and watch and read all the "how to" stuff and this and that... and in the end, something like this can happen. I find it quite ludicrous.

Maybe this is some case of one's-defeating perfectionism, when they were thinking my music is, sound-wise and composition-wise, good enough for their game, but I really didn't feel like that. (Frankly, the themes I made were fricking cool, IMO :D, but that's that as far as I'm concerned.)


That was 3 years ago, since that I worked on my craft, now I'd take the job no problem. 
Maybe such an opportunity will never happen to me again, but what a funny experience.


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