# Comparison between a few strings libraries - including BBC SO



## muk (May 22, 2020)

Hi everyone,

Having bought BBC SO I wanted to compare it with some other libraries I have. This the first few bars of Schubert's song 'Du bist die Ruh' that I orchestrated. It's the very first short mockup I made with BBC SO. I'm still making myself familiar with the library and setting up a template. I am not as familiar with it as with the other libraries I used in this comparison. Yet I like the result. The instruments blend very nicely and build a cohesive sounstage. 

The woodwinds in all the examples are VSL woodwinds. Except in the BBCSO one of course. That example is purely BBC SO. No copy pasting of audio was done. Every string library was played in individually, and tweaked to make it sound as good as I could. Some are nice in my opinion (others less so...), but none has the coherent quality that I hear in BBCSO. It's still early. This test run is quite encouraging for me though.

Spitfire Chamber Strings:









SCS.mp3 | Powered by Box







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Cinematic Studio Strings:









CSS.mp3 | Powered by Box







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Century Strings:









Century Strings.mp3 | Powered by Box







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Century Strings con sordino:









Century Strings con sordino.mp3 | Powered by Box







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Light and Sound Chamber Strings:









Light and Sound.mp3 | Powered by Box







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BBCSO custom mix:









BBC SO own mix.mp3 | Powered by Box







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BBCSO Jake Jackson Mix 1:









BBC SO Jackson Mix 1.mp3 | Powered by Box







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## RogiervG (May 22, 2020)

the strings in bbc so sound lovely in nature. warm like in a concert.
second one i find nice, is the cinematic studio strings.

one note: the balance of bbc so woods is different compared to the vsl ones. maybe fix that, so it's more the same.


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## Zedcars (May 22, 2020)

The BBCSO certainly sounds the most “could have sworn I was sitting in front of a live orchestra” sound.

I only own the SCS and BBCSOP so it’s interesting for me to hear them all side by side.

Did you try blending the VSL woods with the BBCSO strings? I realise that defeats the object of buying the BBCSO (ie good internal blend) but I wonder if it’s easy or hard to mix with other libraries. I haven’t tried yet.

Thanks for taking the time to do this.


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## Scamper (May 22, 2020)

The sound of the BBCSO is really great with that big, yet dry room and all the sections fit together so nicely. I still prefer CSS/CSB for their control and musicality, but if they had the sound of BBCSO, that would be close to a perfect library.

What mics are you using with that custom mix?


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## muk (May 23, 2020)

@RogiervG thanks, I agree about the sound of the BBCSO strings. It's my favourite in this example. After that I like Light and Sound and Century Strings con sordino, though the latter has some issues with the legato transitions.
Regarding balancing the woodwinds, that's a tough one. I did the VSL versions some time ago and probably don't have the project files anymore. And I like the current balance in the BBCSO version. But maybe I can tweak it a little more.

Thanks @Zedcars. I really like the concert hall orchestra sound of the BBCSO. No other library I have can quite pull that off.

I haven't tried blending yet, I've only just finished my BBCSO template. But I will certainly try. If it works I think that I will be using VSL woodwinds and Cinematic Studio Brass alongside of BBCSO, as the second players. The balance is very different in these examples, VSL sounds much closer and not in an actual room like BBCSO. I will have to try and see if I can get them to match a bit better.

Thanks @Scamper. I agree, the sound of BBCSO is really quite something. Love that about the library. I also agree that Cinematic Studio Strings are a breeze to work with. They sound lovely too. To my ears they have a very different sound that works for different contexts. I prefer BBCSO for concert hall style of music. CSS is fantastic for that highly romantic filmmusic with lots of vibrato. I think that I will be using both libraries a lot and choose depending on the context. Cinematic Studio Brass is awesome too. I'll see if I can integrate it in a template alongside of BBCSO.



Scamper said:


> What mics are you using with that custom mix?



It's a pretty wild mix of Close, Tree, Ambient, Stereo, Mids, Sides, Balcony, and Spills. On the strings I use a slightly different mix without the Mids, but the Ouriggers instead. Overall it's slightly drier than the Jake Jackson Mix 1. I was looking to create a live concert hall kind of sound. My modest pc can't handle the load of all the mics I am using, so I work with the Jake Jackson mix 1, and then bounce section by section with my custom mix.


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## CT (May 23, 2020)

I know you've been weighing whether or not to get this for a while now. Glad it's turned out to be worth it for you!


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## Vik (May 23, 2020)

muk said:


> I agree about the sound of the BBCSO strings. It's my favourite in this example


+1


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## OleJoergensen (May 23, 2020)

Thank you for sharing this demoes!


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## muk (May 23, 2020)

miket said:


> I know you've been weighing whether or not to get this for a while now. Glad it's turned out to be worth it for you!



Thank you Mike! It's too soon to form a definiere opinion, but first impressions are very good and I love the sound signature.


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## José Herring (May 23, 2020)

BBCSO is definitely on the list for my sample purchases this year. In the meantime I'd thought I'd give my aging library a go at it to add another for comparison. 

I did it by ear and I think I was like a 1/2 step off or something, but you'll get the gist.

Du bist die Ruh'


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## OleJoergensen (May 23, 2020)

josejherring said:


> BBCSO is definitely on the list for my sample purchases this year. In the meantime I'd thought I'd give my aging library a go at it to add another for comparison.
> 
> I did it by ear and I think I was like a 1/2 step off or something, but you'll get the gist.
> 
> Du bist die Ruh'



It sounds good aswell! Which strings did you use?


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## Saxer (May 23, 2020)

josejherring said:


> In the meantime I'd thought I'd give my aging library a go...


What is this? Sonic Implants?


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## muk (May 23, 2020)

Sounds beautiful Jose. Quite a different sound from all the other examples. EWQLSO?


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## Bluemount Score (May 23, 2020)

Scamper said:


> I still prefer CSS/CSB for their control and musicality, but if they had the sound of BBCSO, that would be close to a perfect library.


That's what I always thought as well. Both are my current main go-to's because of exactly what you are describing.

Also: My 1000ths post


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## Akarin (May 23, 2020)

josejherring said:


> BBCSO is definitely on the list for my sample purchases this year. In the meantime I'd thought I'd give my aging library a go at it to add another for comparison.
> 
> I did it by ear and I think I was like a 1/2 step off or something, but you'll get the gist.
> 
> Du bist die Ruh'




So far, it's the most pleasing example to my ears.


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## José Herring (May 23, 2020)

It's all HO except ww which are EWQLSO.

Edit: i just remembered I ended up switching to EWQLSO basses for the pizz. The HO basses just don't have that round low end.


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## StillLife (May 23, 2020)

BBC sounds good indeed, but I don't think I prefer it to SCS.


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## José Herring (May 23, 2020)

StillLife said:


> BBC sounds good indeed, but I don't think I prefer it to SCS.


Personally I love the sound of BBCSO but for some reason I've never been fully convinced yet. The library doesn't hook up well to my ears. The tone is gorgeous but every demo I hear there are these huge gaps in the transitions, lack of RR for "legato' and sustain patches (not really a deal breaker because too many RR and your programming becomes too random). The room is gorgeous, the tone of the strings fantastic. The tone of the WW fantastic and the percussion seem pristine but something about it hasn't fully gelled to my ears. I'd like to be really wrong on that.

I may get BBSCO core shortly just to see if I'm wrong about that. I did hear one demo of a SW cue that did get me a little excited. But, I could hear the gaps yet still.

It's like that Lady Gaga song, "it's like a broken mirror, you can glue it back together but you can still see the cracks in the m*therf*ker. "

I've come to realize though that being part of the sample community for 15 years that my aesthetic tends to be way different than most people's so I'm still listening to a lot of BBCSO demos ect....

Mostly though I'm leaning towards specialty libraries these days rather than the all in one package type libraries. But, ideally I'd like to have HOOE when it comes out and BBCSO as my main libraries because they come closes to the sound I like.


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## StillLife (May 23, 2020)

josejherring said:


> Personally I love the sound of BBCSO but for some reason I've never been fully convinced yet. The library doesn't hook up well to my ears. The tone is gorgeous but every demo I hear there are these huge gaps in the transitions, lack of RR for "legato' and sustain patches (not really a deal breaker because too many RR and your programming becomes too random). The room is gorgeous, the tone of the strings fantastic. The tone of the WW fantastic and the percussion seem pristine but something about it hasn't fully gelled to my ears. I'd like to be really wrong on that.
> 
> I may get BBSCO core shortly just to see if I'm wrong about that. I did hear one demo of a SW cue that did get me a little excited. But, I could hear the gaps yet still.
> 
> ...


I understand completely. I feel the same way. I doubted between the BBC core and completing the Studio Orchestra pro. And although the BBC is cheaper and even comes with percussion, its tone - though lovely - does not tickle me as much as that of the Studio Series.


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## muk (May 23, 2020)

Interesting and cool how tastes differ here. For this short piece BBCSO is my favourite, just because of the gorgeous sound. Cinematic Studio Strings and Spitfire Chamber Strings I do not care for much here (though I love CSS for other things).

Jose, about the gaps in the legato transitions, I have a suspicion where this comes from. Some of the instruments have an 'extended legato' patch, where you can perform legato and shorts on the same patch. I think it's something that Andy Blaney programs if I'm not mistaken. For some instruments this patch is very good. For other instruments, the normal legato patch, which is hidden and not active by default, sounds much better to me. You have to be careful when programing and choose the right option.


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## José Herring (May 23, 2020)

muk said:


> Interesting and cool how tastes differ here. For this short piece BBCSO is my favourite, just because of the gorgeous sound. Cinematic Studio Strings and Spitfire Chamber Strings I do not care for much here (though I love CSS for other things).
> 
> Jose, about the gaps in the legato transitions, I have a suspicion where this comes from. Some of the instruments have an 'extended legato' patch, where you can perform legato and shorts on the same patch. I think it's something that Andy Blaney programs if I'm not mistaken. For some instruments this patch is very good. For other instruments, the normal legato patch, which is hidden and not active by default, sounds much better to me. You have to be careful when programing and choose the right option.


Makes sense. BBCSO. I want to believe. I'm a weird one in that I actually like the sound of BBCSO more than SSO. But, the SSO demos are so much more musical. I don't know what my first Spitfire library will be yet, but I have a feeling that price will dictate some of my decision. I may just start with core and see where that goes, but I find that lack of bass clarinet in core disturbing.

Btw I know that you didn't post any SSO demos, I'm just mostly thinking out loud.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (May 23, 2020)

josejherring said:


> It's all HO except ww which are EWQLSO.
> 
> Edit: i just remembered I ended up switching to EWQLSO basses for the pizz. The HO basses just don't have that round low end.


Good ol' HO


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## CT (May 23, 2020)

It's definitely true that Andy's performance patches require either really careful playing, or editing after the fact. They're quite flexible, but I'm still a little mystified by how to get the best out of them consistently.


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## markleake (May 23, 2020)

BBCSO does have a very nice tone and spaciousness to the sound. But I like L&S Chamber here better, it does a much better job at the legatos. A a very different tone to BBCSO, but I like it. Better than CSS or SCS here.

The transitions in BBCSO are just so unnatural to me. I wouldn't like my players to play like that. It stands out much more than the tone of the library.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (May 24, 2020)

josejherring said:


> It's all HO except ww which are EWQLSO.
> 
> Edit: i just remembered I ended up switching to EWQLSO basses for the pizz. The HO basses just don't have that round low end.


Are you looking forward to the release of HO Opus and the the reworked libraries? 
I read Nick Phoenix' post on here about the work they have put into it...

Sounds tantalising, but most of all because I have Composer Cloud Plus (which I just renewed for less on the deal they had recently)


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## erikradbo (May 24, 2020)

josejherring said:


> It's all HO except ww which are EWQLSO.
> 
> Edit: i just remembered I ended up switching to EWQLSO basses for the pizz. The HO basses just don't have that round low end.



Wished to have HO in as a comparison. Prob my favorite as well.


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## José Herring (May 24, 2020)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> Are you looking forward to the release of HO Opus and the the reworked libraries?
> I read Nick Phoenix' post on here about the work they have put into it...
> 
> Sounds tantalising, but most of all because I have Composer Cloud Plus (which I just renewed for less on the deal they had recently)


I am looking forward to it for sure. I'm not sure I'll get composer cloud. If I'm renting I prefer the rent to own program, because I hold on to my libraries for a long, long time. Seriously, I'll probably die with a copy of HO on whatever future hard drive I have.


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## nolotrippen (May 24, 2020)

Spitfire and Light and Sound are very nice and sound close.


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## Cathbad (May 25, 2020)

markleake said:


> BBCSO does have a very nice tone and spaciousness to the sound. But I like L&S Chamber here better, it does a much better job at the legatos. A a very different tone to BBCSO, but I like it. Better than CSS or SCS here.
> 
> The transitions in BBCSO are just so unnatural to me. I wouldn't like my players to play like that. It stands out much more than the tone of the library.



Agreed. BBCSO transitions sound uneven and clunky enough to put me off this library permanently. Intonation in SCS really makes my skin crawl. Both libraries have a lovely basic sound, but I couldn't contemplate using them with those faults. It's a shame.

CSS sounds a little more veiled, not quite as bright and open. But nothing in the performance sticks out negatively to my ear. Same with 8Dio, although I find the sound a tiny bit metallic.

My favourite is actually LSCS (which is just as well because I bought it this week on the OP's recommendation after hearing some of his music). Clear and naturalistic sound that I'll enjoy using in chamber orchestra writing I'm sure.


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## muk (May 25, 2020)

Hey @Cathbad, I'm glad that you're liking Light & Sound Chamber Strings if you bought them on my suggestion


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## José Herring (May 25, 2020)

I'm getting set to pull the trigger on BBCSO then all of a sudden a further limitation pops up which makes me pause. I hear there are limited velocity layers in BBCSO which for me is kind of a kiss of death as limited dynamic range leads to expressionless mockups. 

Can anybody confirm this for fact? Like what are the layers for each section?


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## Cat (May 25, 2020)

josejherring said:


> I'm getting set to pull the trigger on BBCSO then all of a sudden a further limitation pops up which makes me pause. I hear there are limited velocity layers in BBCSO which for me is kind of a kiss of death as limited dynamic range leads to expressionless mockups.
> 
> Can anybody confirm this for fact? Like what are the layers for each section?


Yes, sadly this is true, bbcso has a very low dynamic layers count. The longs never exceed two layers of dynamics. Strings do have another 2 with vibrato (so 2 dyn layers per se, each coming in 2 flavours, with and without vibrato). It’s ridiculous!


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## José Herring (May 25, 2020)

Cat said:


> Yes, sadly this is true, bbcso has a very low dynamic layers count. The longs never exceed two layers of dynamics. Strings do have another 2 with vibrato (so 2 dyn layers per se, each coming in 2 flavours, with and without vibrato). It’s ridiculous!


Oh man, deal breaker :(


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## markleake (May 25, 2020)

Cathbad said:


> My favourite is actually LSCS (which is just as well because I bought it this week on the OP's recommendation after hearing some of his music). Clear and naturalistic sound that I'll enjoy using in chamber orchestra writing I'm sure.


Totally agree.

I think LSCS are very underrated. I've had them for years, but only started using them more recently. I think I was put off a bit by not knowing how to use the mics so well. But now I've rediscovered them, so to speak.

The basses (bass?) are a bit weak, but otherwise the tone and clarity of them is pretty amazing. They did such a good job with their v2 update, it really does compare well against other libs. I wish there were more shorts though.


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## CT (May 25, 2020)

josejherring said:


> Oh man, deal breaker :(



This is something that would typically turn me away as well. However....

As always, expression can give you some more "dynamic range." But beyond that, while the basic long patches might feel constrained, the flautandos/sul tastos/marcato attack longs in the strings, and the cuivre in the brass still allow for a wide spectrum of dynamics. You just don't have the full spectrum on a single patch that can be crossfaded up and down from ppp to fff. 

Frustrating, but when weighed against everything that's excellent about the library, and the workarounds, I couldn't let it be a dealbreaker.


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## Gingerbread (May 25, 2020)

To me, Light & Sound seemed the most natural. And interestingly, the Jake Jackson mix for BBCSO sounded the least good, to my ears. 

I'm actually curious about the woodwinds. What are they from?


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## Robert_G (May 25, 2020)

My main string libs are CSS and Light & Sound. Love them both, but I noticed recently that I'm reaching for Light and Sound more than CSS for a lot of the stuff I do.


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## Stringtree (May 25, 2020)

So we have the name brand that's obviously good, at a steep discount now but not at an historic low. 

And then there's this underdog that so many of you are vouching for, LSCS.

I've listened, listened again, and again, and again. So this thingy is $150. As opposed to whatever the name brand is today. The one that even they say is their favorite. 

I just got the SSS and it's much maligned. But honestly, it was a real pleasure playing a completely professional-level sample library. 

Maybe the smaller stuff could be handled by SLCS. So many good voices I like, saying it's good. 

I'm just letting the popcorn dissolve in my mouth, piece by piece, so I don't disturb this excellent discussion. I will be quiet now, and probably buy both when I have the chance, so I can decide. 

It's sort of a life's mission to obtain the SCS.

Greg


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## markleake (May 25, 2020)

Stringtree said:


> I just got the SSS and it's much maligned. But honestly, it was a real pleasure playing a completely professional-level sample library.


I do love SSS. It has been a keeper for me since the day I got it, and I've not let go of it despite getting other libs since. It can't do some things so well (any library has it's limits), but there's plenty it can do well, and there are so many articulations included.

My secret sauce is to double it with other libraries to lift the legato, or make it sound more detailed, etc.


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## muk (May 26, 2020)

Can confirm that there are not enough dynamic layers. The homepage states 'up to 3'. I hear two in most cases. Something like mezzopiano and forte. This works well for woodwinds. For the strings there is the workaround that @miket mentioned. I am using the flautando patches as the pianissimo layer. This works surprisingly well. The flautandos do have that beautiful fragility that is typical for pianissimi. For the brass it's a real problem. This section suffers the most in my opinion. There is a separate cuivré patch, that does that brassy top dynamic layer. Problem is, on the normal longs and the legato patch, that same brassyness kicks in way too early, at around halfway up on the modwheel. So there is simply not enough range and timbral differentation.

As to the dynamic range, that is something you'll have to experiment with. For my taste it is not large enough when only using cc1. But you can easily increase it by using cc11 as well.



Gingerbread said:


> I'm actually curious about the woodwinds. What are they from?



In the BBCSO example they are from BBCSO, obviously. In all the other examples they are VSL Woodwinds.


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## cloudesky (May 26, 2020)

muk said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Having bought BBC SO I wanted to compare it with some other libraries I have. This the first few bars of Schubert's song 'Du bist die Ruh' that I orchestrated. It's the very first short mockup I made with BBC SO. I'm still making myself familiar with the library and setting up a template. I am not as familiar with it as with the other libraries I used in this comparison. Yet I like the result. The instruments blend very nicely and build a cohesive sounstage.
> 
> ...


Nice test. Sounds like the pizzicato is missing from the CSS example.


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## NoamL (May 26, 2020)

These examples mostly have the same problem (not your fault) - they sound like fingered legato transitions when really you want a string-crossing same-bow transition. I don't think any of them were particularly "great" but SCS won imo with CSS a nose behind. Century Strings and BBCSO were my least favorites, BBCSO sounds clunky and poorly timed and Century Strings just does not have a good natural tone, sounds like it was recorded in an auditorium or something.


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## NoamL (May 26, 2020)

@josejherring I like your demo a lot. Looking forward to HOOPUS.


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## johjoh (May 31, 2020)

@muk : great to share this kind or comparison. Wish we could have more of this !

I'm currently (it's almost midnight ...) considering BBCSO as one way to get a complete orchestra.
Currently own both SCS and VSL Dimension Strings.
So here I came, trying to get more "meat" for my decision.

TBH, I am a bit surprised by the examples ...

Not the SCS one - I agree with @NoamL that it "wins" this comparison, but the rather poor results with the other ones.
Soundwise, the CSS is nice, but I'm hearing a lot of dynamic inbalances.
Century Strings : "what are they waiting for ?"- attacks seems unrealistically slow
BBCSO : somehow, attacks are uneven, I also heard a glissando slipping in ??? 

To come back to my own "problem": is this typical of BBCSO, is it just a problem with the BBCSO strings, or maybe @muk has way more experience with the (programming of) articulations in SCS / CSS ??


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## borisb2 (May 31, 2020)

muk said:


> Light and Sound Chamber Strings:



Thanks for doing that. Great comparison.. I prefer LSCS as well for this piece - the tone maybe a bit harsh but very well balanced performance. HO in the other post I like second best.

The legato in BBC SO sounds like community-orchestra-rehearsal-late-evening-can-we-please-go-home .. just awful

... beautfiul orchestration with the woodwinds by the way .. very emotional and effective


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## CT (May 31, 2020)

This is a good passage to use as a "stress test" because it's one of those super simple things that most samples just can't handle. I don't truly like how *any* of them fare with it, but Light and Sound/BBCSO seem to have the most even, controlled sound. 

Because few string libraries, if any, have subtle enough dynamics to breathe in the way this excerpt should without varying in dynamics too wildly, I think using expression for some gentle hairpins might add more life into them. The repeating legato transitions, well... this is why we need that sampled with at least a few round robins.


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## muk (May 31, 2020)

johjoh said:


> is it just a problem with the BBCSO strings, or maybe @muk has way more experience with the (programming of) articulations in SCS / CSS ??



It was the very first mockup I ever did with BBCSO, so it is safe to say that I have way more experience with either CSS and SCS. That portamento in the BBCSO example, it is something you can control. So nothing to worry there. The legato is another matter. I think that legato programming might not be Spitfire's forte. In any case it is an area where BBCSO does not come close to the likes of CSS, for example.



borisb2 said:


> ... beautfiul orchestration with the woodwinds by the way .. very emotional and effective



Thank you Boris!



miket said:


> This is a good passage to use as a "stress test" because it's one of those super simple things that most samples just can't handle.



I agree. Such a simple thing as a repeating legato transition is really tough for many sample libaries.


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