# French Horns



## novaburst (Jul 19, 2016)

I love the french horns, it is the piece that i am working on now, may i ask for a little help in what other brass complement the french horns, i am finding each time i use trumpets, or trombone i lose that beautiful tone the french horn give.

is it common to use the french horns alone with out any other brass

Thanks for your help


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## JohnG (Jul 19, 2016)

If you are writing chords, Flugelhorns blend very well with French Horns, as do tubas. Their construction is similar, so they sound more homogeneous with French Horns than do trumpets and trombones.

If you are writing a single line for _live players_, it is not uncommon to double multiple French Horns (four, for example) with a solo trombone (if the part is low) or a solo trumpet (if the part is high), but those doubles don't often sound quite so good with samples.

Also, a standard rule of thumb for live players is to use two French Horns to balance one trumpet or trombone.

You can find these things in most orchestration books.

However, as I said above and has been said on another thread about orchestration, the doubling and other orchestration techniques that work for live players don't always work so well for samples.

One way to learn a lot about writing for brass is to study John Williams' scores. He knows more about orchestration than most people ever will. You can choose almost any one of his scores with a lot of brass and / or action -- each one is like an orchestration course.


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## Arbee (Jul 19, 2016)

While not brass, bassons and horns are (IMHO) a beautiful blend (bassons with lower voices if not unison).


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## wpc982 (Jul 19, 2016)

If you combine the trumpet and trombones by giving them more rhythmic material (TA-DA, TATATA DA), while the horns are more sustained, that works well. If you try to give both groups similar sustained material, that does not work so well.


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## The Darris (Jul 19, 2016)

Double Horns and Violas if if you want lush.


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## Rodney Money (Jul 19, 2016)

novaburst said:


> I love the french horns, it is the piece that i am working on now, may i ask for a little help in what other brass complement the french horns, i am finding each time i use trumpets, or trombone i lose that beautiful tone the french horn give.
> 
> is it common to use the french horns alone with out any other brass
> 
> Thanks for your help


Before I answer brother, what are you going for? Chords, melodies, counter-melodies?


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## novaburst (Jul 20, 2016)

Thank you so much for your ideas and Intel, the piece I am doing is a mock-up, using library's, 

@Rodney Money the part for the horns I think it is a counter melody with single lines, legato, 

Reading posts has given me a little more confidents in what I want to do.

So that is a really big help, reading all the post. Thanks you again,


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## The Darris (Jul 20, 2016)

I encourage you to listen to orchestral music you love, and listen to stuff you hate, to learn more about orchestration. I'm sure you know the timbre of a French Horn so it isn't too hard to figure out when they are playing. When you think in terms of Romantic Era Horns, I think of using just 4 Horns total and writing in 4 part harmony. Remember, sometimes the best compliment to an instrument is just another one of the same voice. You can write some cool "chorale-esque" pieces with just Horns and add in some sustaining strings over the top. I always think in terms of color and range. Every instrument, regardless of section, sits in a certain range and has a specific music color whether it be soft and woody, or loud and brassy. The list goes on. Really take the time to listen to orchestral music, no matter what genre, and hear what each section is doing in relationship to the other sections. 

Some people prefer score study so they can actually see what is happening. I do. But I also know that I learn more when I am listening to it happen versus trying to read how it happens. The best orchestral mock-ups I've heard are from composers who know the orchestra and the instruments. Start there, it will only make you a better composer.

Best,

Chris


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## novaburst (Jul 21, 2016)

Thanks @The Darris


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## SymphonicSamples (Jul 21, 2016)

The Brass section is very homogeneous in general, but depending on the rang you have the rest of the section playing will certainly effect the horns tone. This page has some useful information...

https://vsl.co.at/en/Horn_in_F/Sound_Combinations


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## Rodney Money (Jul 21, 2016)

I will start off by saying, "these guys" seem to know how to use other brass instruments and not lose the beauty of the horn.  In all seriousness though, this is the Canadian Brass and although their members have changed over the years their beauty has stayed the same.

And with the score:

On a personal note, you may notice that this piece has no accidentals if memory serves me correctly. Sometimes I believe we as composers concentrate too hard on "cool" chord progressions and colorful orchestrations that changes every 2 measures that we forget to develop the actual melodic lines taking away from the overall emotion of our pieces.


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## novaburst (Jul 21, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> I will start off by saying, "these guys" seem to know how to use other brass instruments and not lose the beauty of the horn.  In all seriousnes though, this is the Canadian Brass and although their members have changed over the years their beauty has stayed the same.
> 
> And with the score:
> 
> On a personal note, you may notice that this piece has no accidentals if memory serves me correctly. Sometimes I believe we as composers concentrate too hard on "cool" chord progressions and colorful orchestrations that changes every 2 measures that we forget to develop the actual melodic lines taking away from the overall emotion of our pieces.



Simply wow, almost tear jerker, haha but the playing was beautiful, and again only brass


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## novaburst (Jul 21, 2016)

I'm


SymphonicSamples said:


> The Brass section is very homogeneous in general, but depending on the rang you have the rest of the section playing will certainly effect the horns tone. This page has some useful information...
> 
> https://vsl.co.at/en/Horn_in_F/Sound_Combinations



@SymphonicSamples very good link never noted this at VSL, but there is a lot of Intel there, this is a good reference to have


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## Rodney Money (Jul 21, 2016)

novaburst said:


> Simply wow, almost tear jerker, haha but the playing was beautiful, and again only brass


We brass people are beautiful people, if only most samplers knew...


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## novaburst (Jul 21, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> We brass people are beautiful people, if only most samplers knew...


Ha ha lol well you have to big us string people up too you know haha, ...............i think i am more of a strings but i am going full heart into this piece and means i need to explore the brass and horns, wood winds and give them a fair chunk of the piece i am doing.

I am hoping i can make some sort of sense of the whole thing, but seeing how brass can sound so good, and not afraid to say beautiful, i am now getting excited to see any enhancement it will bring to my piece.


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## NoamL (Jul 21, 2016)

*"Read John Williams scores!!"* is the best answer to any orchestration question 

Some scattered thoughts from lots of score study...

*French horn as solo - *remember it's an alto instrument. From G below middle C, to A above middle C, is a pretty good and effective range. Lower is wobbly and blurry; higher is strained.

*Horns in unison* - same range, but also effective going up to B-C-D above middle C - this is a piercing blasting sound for huge effect (think of the end of ET...). Horns a4 is perfectly effective for almost everything JW writes. Horns a6 is overkill in an orchestral context... horns a12 is nuts...

*Horns in 4-part choir* - very effective for chord pads, and also staccato passages which can be bouncy or biting. Crunchy voicings (G, B, C, E for instance) work well. Sample libraries overexaggerate the staccato horn's volume and penetration, similarly to how string spiccatos sound louder and crisper in samples than real life.

*Horns and brass *- general principle here is that Williams sees the brass as three highly independent sections: horns, trumpets, and "basso" (tenor tbn + bass tbn + tuba). Any _one_ section is more than enough to battle the strings and woodwinds. Therefore he doesn't often use two different brass sections together _in the same role_ (background, foreground, rhythm). If two or more brass sections are playing, they will usually have highly independent parts.

*Horns and trumpets *- Trumpet III sometimes reinforces a Horns a4 melody line, especially in the lower register. The tpt adds just a bit of definition to the blurry warm horn sound. Tpts and Hns in unison is overkill and I can't remember a Williams passage that uses this extensively. Trumpets in octave lines above horns is doable but it's a huge, huge sound that overwhelms the orchestra. Williams has a very recognizable and personal way of writing for tpts where he uses them to interject and exclaim and punctuate; the material he writes for tpts is often doubled _nowhere_ else in the orchestra and it works because tpts are naturally so loud.

*Horns and trombones* - Williams often has the horns and trombones trade off the role of harmonic background. This relieves the lower range from being harmony mud all the time. He uses horns and trombones as harmony _together_ in this role much more rarely - it's a very large sound reserved for tuttis. Horns in octave lines above trombones is uncommon but not rare. It's a very powerful, martial, royal? sound. Williams likes to use three octaves of low brass (including lower horn) as a "Here is the bad guy" sting.

*Horns and tuba *- the tuba is the natural bass of the horns due to their analogous construction. The tuba certainly emphasizes the blurriness and choral character of the horns.

*Horns and woodwinds* - the Hn is traditionally used "as a woodwind" nearly as often as its brass role, this is not the case in Media Ventures / Remote Control style scores of course. The horn blends excellently (in unison, stacked chords, interlocking, etc.) with the clarinets as well as the bassoons. These instruments add a hollow, mellow, or reedy sound respectively to the horn and emphasize a sort of aloofness or poignancy. Other combinations are possible such as unison with flutes (esp. alto flute), octaved by flutes. The English horn + Hn is an interesting sound that blends okay, while the oboe itself doesn't blend. The horn can also blend into a big woodwind unison line like the beginning of Harry Potter that uses solo Hn, EH, alto flute and I believe clarinet?

*Horns and strings* - both violas and cellos form effective blends at unison with the violas being warmer and the cellos bringing out a straining songlike quality because of the higher tessitura of their A string.


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## NoamL (Jul 21, 2016)

There's also a good discussion *here *about how brass sample libraries overemphasize the silvery "brassy edge" sound at loud dynamics, which is not really correct because brass can be loud and still have a warm tone... there's a reason why all brass players call their instruments "horns" 

Check out this piece. Amateur players but a great performance imo. And a good example of horns + ww:



Whitacre rocks


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## Rodney Money (Jul 21, 2016)

NoamL said:


> There's also a good discussion *here *about how brass sample libraries overemphasize the silvery "brassy edge" sound at loud dynamics, which is not really correct because brass can be loud and still have a warm tone... there's a reason why all brass players call their instruments "horns"
> 
> Check out this piece. Amateur players but a great performance imo. And a good example of horns + ww:
> 
> ...



Whitacre "soft" rocks? Lol. Just kidding, Eric and I got to speak several times sharing insight when he visited my university back in the early 2000's. By the way, you forgot the most common and greatest horn blend ever thanks to the concert band world: horn and alto saxes!


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## chibear (Jul 21, 2016)

NoamL said:


> There's also a good discussion *here *about how brass sample libraries overemphasize the silvery "brassy edge" sound at loud dynamics, which is not really correct because brass can be loud and still have a warm tone...



Obviously that group has been infiltrated by radicals and heretics.  (Just finishing Sansom's Shardlake series)


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## Rodney Money (Jul 21, 2016)

chibear said:


> Obviously that group has been infiltrated by radicals and heretics.  (Just finishing Sansom's Shardlake series)


Too many big words for my brass brain. Are radicals and heretics synonymous with realists and reformists?


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## chibear (Jul 21, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Too many big words for my brass brain. Are radicals and heretics synonymous with realists and reformists?


As far as brass players and samples go, yes. Otherwise depends on which side you are on that particular day and whether in fact you're the burner or the burnee.


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## novaburst (Jul 22, 2016)

NoamL said:


> *"Read John Williams scores!!"* is the best answer to any orchestration question



Thanks for reference post @NoamL


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## novaburst (Jul 22, 2016)

NoamL said:


> There's also a good discussion *here *about how brass sample libraries overemphasize the silvery "brassy edge" sound at loud dynamics, which is not really correct because brass can be loud and still have a warm tone... there's a reason why all brass players call their instruments "horns"
> 
> Check out this piece. Amateur players but a great performance imo. And a good example of horns + ww:
> 
> ...




Wonderful piece being performed by C H B opened out beautifully @2:35 also the link leading to our own guys in a maze of debate and info on 8Dio Brass

@Rodney Money very nice demo over there on 8DiO forum as with the rest of the forum demos.


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## FredericBernard (Aug 6, 2016)

NoamL said:


> *Horns in unison* - same range, but also effective going up to B-C-D above middle C - this is a piercing blasting sound for huge effect (think of the end of ET...). Horns a4 is perfectly effective for almost everything JW writes. Horns a6 is overkill in an orchestral context... horns a12 is nuts...



I would (respectfully) disagree that 6 Horns are an overkill. This is actually a very common size in film music and I also use this commonly for my cues. I would break it down like this:

2 Horns: quite uncommon in film scores, most likely found in classical to romantic era music (musicals also use 2 Horns as a standard size)
3 Horns: some smaller sized film scores use this, but it's not that common
*4 Horns: standard size for film scores and late romantic/modern orchestra 
6 Horns: expanded standard size, very common too in film scores*
8 Horns, quite common as well in Hollywood for large orchestrations (many of Alan Silvestri's scores, Debney's Cutthroat Island etc, also often seen in late Romantic music like Richard Strauss or Wagner)
12 Horns, quite an overkill, but some composers use this size anyway (John Powell for example does this regulary, like in Ice Age 2 and 3, Bolt, X-Men and a lot more)



NoamL said:


> *"Read John Williams scores!!"* is the best answer to any orchestration question



+1!!


novaburst said:


> is it common to use the french horns alone with out any other brass


Absolutely! For smaller orchestrations it can be very effective to spare out the other brass instruments and just use horns, woods and strings. Actually it's the brass instruments which is most commonly used "alone" (without all the other brass), as it's very versaitle and homogenous. 



JohnG said:


> If you are writing chords, Flugelhorns blend very well with French Horns, as do tubas. Their construction is similar, so they sound more homogeneous with French Horns than do trumpets and trombones.



True, but Flugelhorns are quite uncommon in film music and actually much more common in Jazz, Pop or Wind Orchestras. I only know of a very few film scores wich make use of this instrument.

If one would require a softer tone on the trumpets he could instead think of putting on a mute, let them play "in stand", or using Cornets. The cornet is somewhere between the very soft sound of a flugelhorn and the more bright tone of a usual trumpet. Danny Elfman uses them too in Edward Scissorhands.

...but nonetheless Cornets are quite rare too. Most times film scores are using Bb Trumpets or sometimes C Trumpets, if a more bright tone is desired by the composer (and rarely a Piccolo Trumpet for very high notes).

best,
Frederic


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## JohnG (Aug 7, 2016)

Trumpet players loooovvve to play flugelhorn because they get a double, which they don't get too often. Most of them have one but you definitely have to tell them to bring it along. I use it all the time. As Frederic says, solo Flugel is more common in jazz but if you want a very high top note and you want it to blend with the FHNs, Flugel is your man. It will blend far better than a standard Bb trumpet, with or without a mute.

Cornets are, as Frederic suggests, not a bad choice; we don't see Cornets in the US much except in student, military or marching bands. Some professionals might have them but I've never seen one in a session. 

James Horner likes to use odd numbers of FHNs, 5 or 7, for what it's worth. I like six because you can have a nice balanced triad, but if you have other brass it's not 100% necessary. Besides, if you have five y0uo can always cheat and use just one horn on the third of the chord.


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## novaburst (Aug 7, 2016)

FredericBernard said:


> Absolutely! For smaller orchestrations it can be very effective to spare out the other brass instruments and just use horns, woods and strings. Actually it's the brass instruments which is most commonly used "alone" (without all the other brass), as it's very versaitle and homogenous.


Thanks for your input @FredericBernard


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## Arbee (Aug 7, 2016)

JohnG said:


> Trumpet players loooovvve to play flugelhorn because they get a double, which they don't get too often. Most of them have one but you definitely have to tell them to bring it along. I use it all the time. As Frederic says, solo Flugel is more common in jazz but if you want a very high top note and you want it to blend with the FHNs, Flugel is your man. It will blend far better than a standard Bb trumpet, with or without a mute.


(tongue in cheek slightly), very true but just a little caution that the intonation of a real flugelhorn in the wrong hands can easily go a little awry if you're trying to blend.


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## JohnG (Aug 7, 2016)

I think that's fair to say about any instrument, really. The Los Angeles guys nail it.


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## trumpoz (Aug 8, 2016)

JohnG said:


> Trumpet players loooovvve to play flugelhorn because they get a double, which they don't get too often. Most of them have one but you definitely have to tell them to bring it along.


There is a great story about the great studio trumpet player Walt Johnson. The story goes that used to have a sign that said "Wouldn't you rather hear it on flugel" that he would raise at various times. The story goes that he even managed to buy a car on the earnings he got from the doubling rates.

Frederic - there is a great article somewhere about the Hollywood legend Malcolm McNab (he has played on 2000+ films). Basically to any semi-orchestral call he will have a Bb, C, D/Eb, Picc, Flugel and Cornet. He will usually choose the instrument based on what he thinks sounds best and is easiest to play for the cue. I'd be surprised if he used picc just because of the range - the sound of the instriment is very particular. What a lot of players will do is if the range of a cue is up there, it may be played on Eb trumpet as the harmonics at any given pitch will not be as close as a Bb trumpet - it reduces the chance of the note not being perfect.

The other reason that some players may choose Bb over C is the key. Keys with sharps will tend to be easier to read on a C/D trumpet and flats will be easier to read on a Bb/Eb trumpet. The sight transposition isn't an issue - at professional orchestral level it is a requirement.


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## JohnG (Aug 8, 2016)

good story! I agree about the multiple instruments -- they bring several, use the one easiest to play the material, and don't even tell you they're switching. They just do it.

Except this one time...still annoyed with myself even though it was over 10 years ago. I wanted a Flugel on a particular cue and forgot to mention it. The player had a lot of instruments but not that one. So now I try to remember to ask.


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## NoamL (Aug 8, 2016)

Interesting discussion about the section size.

I went back and checked some soundtracks and I was certainly wrong about 6hns being overkill even for traditional scoring. Don Davis used 3 tpts, 6 hns, 4 tbns on _The Matrix. _He absolutely needed 6 horns to voice the a2 triads that trade off with the trumpets in the film's iconic theme.

Williams used 4 horns on _E.T._ and _Tintin_; 6 horns on the _Harry Potter_ scores, _Raiders,_ and _Jurassic Park_; and 8 on _Revenge Of The Sith._

Zimmer used 9 horns 6 trombones on _The Dark Knight_. And I guess some number of tubas & cimbassos.

For _Inception_ he did a brass stripe at Air, according to an interview "6 tenor bones, 6 bass trombones, 4 tubas, 6 horns in the gallery" and I expect one or more of the tubas doubled cimbasso.

The thing about Williams' scores is that they are orchestrated so well for... whatever you want to call it: a "real" sound, a "concert hall" sound, "one mic" sound, whatever. You can't go wrong learning that technique, and branching out from there.


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## FredericBernard (Aug 8, 2016)

Hi, NoamL,
there are scores with even more Horns. Check out this rejected score from Bernard Hermann, which uses 16 (together with 12 flutes etc.) horns:


Just pure megalomania if you ask me, no wonder the score was rejected....

Also, bigger isn't always better in general. Especially in the late romantic and early modern era they tended to make use of huge orchestras (Schönberg used around 150 players for his Gurre Lieder). For me some of these extremely large orchestrations sound pretty awful.
On the other hand there are musicals(the Little Mermaid Broadway Orchestrations, to name one) which only make use of around 20 something instrumentalists and they sound superb , because they are fantastically orchestrated and every single player knows his stuff up to perfection.

The thing with the brass in general is that you have to always watch that it is good out-weighted with the rest of the orchestra.
For example there wont be that much of a difference if you either use 24 or 30 violins within your score (there will be more of a subtile difference in lushness than in loudness, if at all that much), on the other hand if you use either 4 or 8 horns will make a HUGE difference. Same with the trumpets, trombones and tuba.


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