# An ongoing riddle - Guess who's the composer!



## Living Fossil

Hello, i thought it could be a good thing – specially with less social life going on actually – to start an ongoing riddle.

Here's the deal:
The riddle starts with a quotation or an anecdote about a composer.
Of course quotations don't have to be literal or said with the exact same words.
The one who solves it, asks the next question - again either kind of a quotation or an anecdote.
And so on.
If nobody knows the answer, add more hints.
If the one who knew the answer doesn't come up with a new riddle, another one can ask the next one...


So, according to the rules it's my duty to start.

It's a very interesting quote since it anticipates in its core what happened in music through samples (to a certain amount), however, with an additional (quite funny as i think) argument.

Here's the quotation in my translation (below there is the original version in German):

"I think that the mechanical reproduction will prevail. Scientific electronical engineering will play an enormous role. The sweating trombonist Müller will be replaced by a machine – and especially the conductor.
I think that's an immense progress.
You know my old fights, specially with conductors.
I have no aversion against the sweating musician, since i simply pity the man, even if he plays badly." (1962)

Original:
"Ich nehme an, daß die mechanische Wiedergabe sich durchsetzen wird, daß auch die wissenschaftliche elektronische Technik in der Musik eine enorme Rolle spielen wird, daß der schwitzende Posaunist Müller durch eine Maschine ersetzt werden wird – und auch vor allem der Dirigent. Das halte ich für einen enormen Fortschritt. Sie wissen von meinen alten Kämpfen, vor allem gegen Dirigenten. Gegen den schwitzenden Musiker habe ich nichts, denn der Mann tut mir einfach leid, auch wenn er schlecht bläst." (1962)


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## dzilizzi

No, no, no. This brings back visions of horrible road trips where my dad has classical music on and wants us to "Guess the composer!" before the piece is done. 

My mom used to give us clues to help us out. They usually had nothing to do with music. 

Sigh. Good Times. I was the one sitting in the back reading.


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## muk

Who the heck knows Hanns Eisler???

So here's my anecdote:

This composer had a daughter. He never in his life got to see her, because her mother - a married countess - tried to raise her as a milkman's child with her husband. It didn't go well, unfortunately, as the count broke up with her and took all the children with him. The name of said daughter may contain a hint about the count not being her real father (!), as spelled backwards the name means 'of unknown origin' (!!).

No idea if that is too hard, or too easy. Or if it is in the intended spirit of the challenge at all. If not, I'd happily pass on the right to pose a challenge to somebody else.


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## mikeh-375

a great game, but no idea @muk. I shall await the answer..


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## muk

mikeh-375 said:


> a great game, but no idea @muk. I shall await the answer..



You will be surprised...


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## fretti

muk said:


> So here's my anecdote:
> 
> This composer had a daughter. He never in his life got to see her, because her mother - a married countess - tried to raise her as a milkman's child with her husband. It didn't go well, unfortunately, as the count broke up with her and took all the children with him. The name of said daughter may contain a hint about the count not being her real father (!), as spelled backwards the name means 'of unknown origin' (!!).



I think it's Beethoven


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## muk

fretti said:


> I think it's Beethoven



Well done, it's true!


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## fretti

Here's my little riddle, with quotes which were apparently said by the composer:

After attending his idols funeral, he toasted: “To him whom we have buried!” and at the second glass he said: “To him who will go next!”.
He died twenty months later, his last wish was to be buried next to his idol.


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## Living Fossil

@fretti : My spontaneous guess (without Google of course) would be either Max Reger or a Russian composer of the 20th century (not sure which one)


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## fretti

Living Fossil said:


> @fretti : My spontaneous guess (without Google of course) would be either Max Reger or a Russian composer of the 20th century (not sure which one)


Sadly not; I guess a few more clues might not hurt

They were both buried in Vienna and in fact still lie next to each other to this day.
The composer I'm asking about is nowadays well known for his Lieder, but while living always stood in the shadow of his idol.


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## Living Fossil

ah ok, now it's clear. It's Schubert.


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## fretti

Living Fossil said:


> ah ok, now it's clear. It's Schubert.


Yes
Got the idea after Beethoven

BTW; Thanks for starting this thread and game @Living Fossil , really great idea! Hopefully more members will join


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## Living Fossil

fretti said:


> Hopefully more members will join



Yes, i hope too...

Said that, i'd like to pass over the next riddle to another member who has one!


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## Vonk

No quotes but how about:
Had an amanuensis; Died of syphilis.


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## mikeh-375

Delius


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## Vonk

Correct! Perhaps that was too easy....


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## mikeh-375

Vonk said:


> Correct! Perhaps that was too easy....



Only if you know these things....

This composer was arrested for trashing a hotel one evening and being lewd by standing on top of the restaurant piano and pulling his pants down.....clue, although a classical genius, he did a few award winning scores too....he liked a drink or 20


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## Vonk

Well Keith Moon comes to mind, but that can't be right. Johnny Depp - nah. Nowadays noboday seems to trash hotels any more.....
Any chance this is a Russian?


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## mikeh-375

Nope, not Russian.
Another clue...The hotel and arrest incident happened whilst the BBC Symphony Orchestra where recording some of his work. And one more clue, he was known by musos in England (ooops another clue there) as Master of the Lean's Musicke....c'mon. that should do it...


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## Vonk

Maurice Jarre?


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## mikeh-375

Bad luck @Vonk...nowhere near yet.

He was English. He was institutionalised several times in his life and even underwent electric shock therapy. He made a fortune from his film scores and use to liberally spend money behind the Pub bar - he was a legendary alcoholic who's drinking sessions sometimes went on for days. He started out as a brilliant trumpet player with the London Philharmonic Orchestra.
He was a flawed genius with the compositional facility of Mozart, writing symphonies (9) and concertos at break neck speed and from his head straight to manuscript.

I'm surprised that "Master of the Lean's Music" didn't give him away. (Think of the name Lean...who could that be? BTW, it is a pun on the genuine official post of 'Master of the Queen's Music' in the UK).

edit...I see why @Vonk suggested Jarre after a quick google on the job title above because he came up straight away...ha....not so easy huh...


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## mikeh-375

....oh allright, one more clue so as to not stall the thread. The said composer didn't actually write this tune, but used it in his_ oscar winning score_...These lyrics are a popular addition to the tune and give a clue as to when the film is set...

all together now..."Hitler has only got one ball,
......................... The other is in the Albert Hall...."

Another clue would be a _Bridge_ , but not a musical one.


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## Vonk

Well I've just learned more about* Malcom Arnold *than I think I wanted to know. I hadn't realised he was such a tortured soul. I got to know and love his guitar concerto when I was young, after a fragment of it was adopted by a BBC arts program as its theme. I didn't know he had worked with Lean on other earlier films besides The Bridge Over The River Kwai. He seems to almost had a monopoly of British film music of the 50's & 60s - he was certainly prolific.


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## mikeh-375

Well done @Vonk.
One of his daughters used his Oscar as a doorstop. His life story is a fantastically hilarious and sad tale and well worth a read for the priceless anecdotes about his sometimes outrageous behaviour. Plus the fact that his serious music is simply brilliant in terms of composition and orchestration.


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## Vonk

On the theme of composers & the law...
Which composer was sent to prison as a consequence of the first performance of one of his works?


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## fretti

I think I remember reading somewhere that *Bach* was imprisoned for a short time. But I‘m not really sure it was because of a composition...


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## mikeh-375

Quite a few have been imprisoned but as a consequence of a first performance? - that's tricky. What about someone in the Second Viennese School? Or perhaps a pacifist, or a renaissance composer - the church where a bit touchy about dissonances...just p****ng in the wind here hoping for a clue.


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## Vonk

No - this is more _Escargots_ than _Shcnitzel_. OK, what clue can I give that isn't too obvious. Stravinsky provoked a riot with the Rite of Spring. One of his collaborators was also involved in this. The performance led to a libel trial which our celebrated composer both lost and got himself jailed for contempt of court.


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## mikeh-375

grrrrr...don't know. Do you mean, Nijinsky or Diaghilev as one involved in the trial of another composer? Another composer commissioned by Diaghilev perhaps?


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## Vonk

Getting warmer...... Try throwing Picasso into the mix.


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## mikeh-375

??????????????
I'm trying not to google this out.
Ravel? Satie? Milhaud?


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## Vonk

Let's say this composer didn't make a good Impression.


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## mikeh-375

oh, I hate you...  I get the Impression(ist) reference..errrrmmmm. I gotta go now I'll think about it -it's wine o'clock....Varese? or the obvious Debussy and his Faun?


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## Vonk

Wine o'clock  Must be time for a Cocteau.


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## Vonk

mikeh-375 said:


> ??????????????
> I'm trying not to google this out.
> Ravel? Satie? Milhaud?


I should have read this more carefully. I should have asked - Which one made a bad impression? Sorry you are nearly there but I don't think multiple entries count .


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## mikeh-375

I'll go for Satie. He has Diaghilev and Cocteau in common.

edit...ok I gave in and googled...it is (with 99.5678% confidence)...SATIE...(right?)


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## Vonk

Correct! His ballet _Parade _had Diaghilev as choreographer, Cocteau as director, Picasso as designer. A class A team you would think, but it was a stinker with the French critics, and Satie insulted one of them for which he was taken to court. For repeatedly shouting _Arse! (Cul!) _at his opponent and at the judge he was jailed for 8 days. I always thought the incident in pleasing contrast to his wistful and calm piano music. 
@fretti was right about Bach. I looked it up to see he was jailed briefly for annoying his then employer.


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## ptram

Living Fossil said:


> "I think that the mechanical reproduction will prevail.


The type of humour makes me think to either Hindemith or Kagel. Since he seems to be not too young, I would think this is Hindemith.

Paolo


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## ptram

Vonk said:


> Which composer was sent to prison as a consequence of the first performance of one of his works?



Maybe Stravinsky, for the unauthorized use of Stars and Stripes in one of his compositions? (Sorry, i don't remember which one).

Paolo


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## Vonk

I always like this forum for teaching me things I didn't know.
_Stravinsky became the subject of a hotly disputed classical music myth when he inserted a controversial dominant seventh chord at a crucial point in a performance of the American national anthem. The police supposedly warned him that a $100 fine would be applicable, and arrested him._
True or not? 
Who's next?


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## Vonk

ptram said:


> The type of humour makes me think to either Hindemith or Kagel. Since he seems to be not too young, I would think this is Hindemith.
> 
> Paolo


My girlfriend was always praising Kagel. I learned to respect her judgement.


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## mikeh-375

Vonk said:


> ........................Who's next?




Technically it's me according to the OP rules, but I'll pass as I've done one already to hopefully encourage someone else.


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## Living Fossil

ptram said:


> The type of humour makes me think to either Hindemith or Kagel. Since he seems to be not too young, I would think this is Hindemith.



Hindemith used "like a machine" as an instruction for players iirc.


Paolo, what about you presenting the next riddle?


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## Living Fossil

Ok, the thread is open for new riddles.
Anybody, who has one, please post it!

Paolo will post one later.


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## mikeh-375

He brutally murdered his wife and her lover after setting a trap to catch them in flagrante delicto. He then immediately went back into the bedroom where he found them to mutilate their bodies in order to make sure they where dead. A year later he became a prince.....?????


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## fretti

mikeh-375 said:


> prince.....?????


I could think of Friedrich II. of Prussia; but he would have been a prince before. It's also not clear if he actually was into woman, so who knows, maybe he finally had a reason to get rid  (though I think his wife outlived him...)
Also: while composing pieces; can he really be qualified as a composer?
(Just a first name that comes to mind without Google though)


So I guess 'prince' has something to do with a piece he wrote?


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## Living Fossil

mikeh-375 said:


> He brutally murdered his wife and her lover after setting a trap to catch them in flagrante delicto. He then immediately went back into the bedroom where he found them to mutilate their bodies in order to make sure they where dead. A year later he became a prince.....?????



That has to be Gesualdo, i guess.


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## ptram

Carlo Gesualdo. I'm not sure he murdered the two lovers himself. If I recollect correctly, he commissioned the murder.

Then, he spent the remaining part of his life writing sad songs for his lost wife.

Sciarrino wrote an opera on this story.

Paolo


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## mikeh-375

ok you smarty pants people.....well done.
@ptram...check this out from wiki. He was not committed so you may be right. Got any refs??

_Two years into her marriage with Gesualdo, Donna Maria began an affair with Fabrizio Carafa, third Duke of Andria and seventh Count of Ruvo. For almost two years, Gesualdo did not have knowledge about this, although the news was spreading and well-known elsewhere. On the night of October 16, 1590, Gesualdo allegedly announced that he was going on a hunting expedition and it is rumored that he arranged with his servants to leave the doors unlocked.[citation needed] When he unexpectedly returned at the Palazzo Sansevero in Naples, he smashed down Donna Maria's bedroom door to discover the two lovers in flagrante in bed.[4] Gesualdo then slaughtered them both on the spot.[5] Afterwards, the bodies of his wife and lover, both mutilated and naked, were dragged outside, in front of the palace to be exposed for everyone to see. Later, Carlo Gesualdo fled to his castle at Gesualdo, Campania to be safe from any relatives of the murdered ones swearing vengeance.

The day after the murders, a delegation of Neapolitan officials inspected the room in Gesualdo's apartment where the killings had taken place, and interrogated witnesses. The delegation's report did not lack in gruesome details, including the mutilation of the corpses, and, according to the witnesses, Gesualdo going into the bedroom a second time "because he wasn't certain yet they were dead".[6]

Due to his status as a nobleman, the Gran Corte della Vicaria found that Gesualdo had not committed a crime.[5]
_


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## ptram

mikeh-375 said:


> He was not committed so you may be right. Got any refs??


I heard the story from Sciarrino himself, when describing his opera "Luci mie traditrici". It seems there is no certainty on how the massacre happened. The sentence will not help us understand. But obviously he was the one who killed or armed the killer.

Now, I'm thinking that one of the strongest techniques used by Gesualdo to move emotions was chromaticism, so extreme to often deny the mode. Should I be worried, if in these days of seclusion I've been working on fine intervals and morphing between harmonies?

Paolo


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## ptram

Again on the issue of the murder. I found an interesting historical note (only in Italian, sorry), with the original information from the witnesses:





__





Carlo Gesualdo: delitto o diritto?


Gesualdo (Av) - Sito dedicato al comune di Gesualdo e al «suo principe» Carlo Gesualdo



carlogesualdo.altervista.org





It is very technical, so maybe it is not easy to translate it effectively. In any case, there are two interesting points:

1) The "informatione" of the tribunal says that Gesualdo killed ("ammazzò") the two lovers; this, however, doesn't mean, at the time, that he was the killer himself. Nobles had their own armed servants, that were part of their staff.

2) However, the murder is not considered a crime, but a lawful vengeance caused by the received offense ("ingiuria ricevuta"). The honor code forced him to kill them.

Gesualdo was a noble, but his victims were of a higher status (Carafa was relative to pope Paolo IV, one of the most fearsome creators of the Inquisitione; and D'Avalos was one of the most important families of the kingdom). So, he was probably not acquitted for his social role, but because of his compliance to the law.

Paolo


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## ptram

May I propose the riddle I was in debt to? This came in mind this morning while taking a shower.

"A German composer speaking English wakes up in the night, and goes out in the street to force his librettista to clarify some points of his Italian libretto for a French opera".

Paolo


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## Vonk

Well, Handel was a German writing operas in Italian performed in England. Can't yet think of a French connection though.


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## ptram

Vonk said:


> Well, Handel was a German writing operas in Italian performed in England. Can't yet think of a French connection though.


Amadigi was based on a French _tragédie lyrique_. Yes, the composer is Händel!

Paolo


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## mikeh-375

ptram said:


> Again on the issue of the murder. I found an interesting historical note (only in Italian, sorry), with the original information from the witnesses:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Carlo Gesualdo: delitto o diritto?
> 
> 
> Gesualdo (Av) - Sito dedicato al comune di Gesualdo e al «suo principe» Carlo Gesualdo
> 
> 
> 
> carlogesualdo.altervista.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is very technical, so maybe it is not easy to translate it effectively. In any case, there are two interesting points:
> 
> 1) The "informatione" of the tribunal says that Gesualdo killed ("ammazzò") the two lovers; this, however, doesn't mean, at the time, that he was the killer himself. Nobles had their own armed servants, that were part of their staff.
> 
> 2) However, the murder is not considered a crime, but a lawful vengeance caused by the received offense ("ingiuria ricevuta"). The honor code forced him to kill them.
> 
> Gesualdo was a noble, but his victims were of a higher status (Carafa was relative to pope Paolo IV, one of the most fearsome creators of the Inquisitione; and D'Avalos was one of the most important families of the kingdom). So, he was probably not acquitted for his social role, but because of his compliance to the law.
> 
> Paolo



Thanks for that Paolo, very informative and interesting. It's cool that you know Sciarrino, did you study with him? 
Don't worry about diatonic chromaticism, get rid of that paradigm and go full on atonal, you know it makes sense..  ...unless by "fine intervals" you mean micro-tonal!!!


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## Vonk

ptram said:


> Amadigi was based on a French _tragédie lyrique_. Yes, the composer is Händel!
> 
> Paolo


So tell us the story, what was troubling George Frideric?


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## Vonk

What Big Man connects a windmill and the British actress Julie Christie? I've rather obviously moved away from classical composers wiith this one, and into film music.


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## re-peat

Michel Legrand? 'Le grand' meaning the big one and Legrand having written the music of "The Windmills Of Your Mind" and also having scored "The Go-Between" which stars Julie Christie.


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## mikeh-375

^^^^...must be. My favourite of his is 'What Are you Doing the Rest Of Your life', especially the Streisand version.


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## Vonk

re-peat said:


> Michel Legrand? 'Le grand' meaning the big one and Legrand having written the music of "The Windmills Of Your Mind" and also having scored "The Go-Between" which stars Julie Christie.


Correct! Over to you.....


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## re-peat

Which very famous composer’s brother, a celebrated but reluctant musician himself, wheeled — in an act of vengeful bitterness — two large furniture trucks filled to the brim with family papers to two industrial incinerators and stood watching for five hours non-stop at each incinerator while tons of letters, manuscripts, scores and sketches went up in flames. It is believed that several hundreds of compositions and countless documents of historic importance were destroyed on those two days.

_


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## mikeh-375

....jeez...classical or commercial?


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## re-peat

Both, actually. He’s conveniently lumped in with the classical composers, even though he isn't known for writing symphonies, concertos or sonatas, but his name is also linked to a commercially hugely successful enterprise.

And, come to think of it, there’s a connection between the title of one of his works and the corona virus.

_


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## mikeh-375

I'm out unless more clues are forthcoming. It sounds like one hell of a tale though, can't wait to see who it is.


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## Vonk

Furniture trucks & incinerators - so we are talking a 20th Century "very famous composer", who wrote no symphonies or concertos..... Nationality unknown, but with a sibling problem. Hmmmm


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## ptram

mikeh-375 said:


> It's cool that you know Sciarrino, did you study with him?


I have had the good chance to attend to one of his summer courses, some decades ago. Quite an experience. Music is only one of the many things he knows about.

And yes, by "fine intervals" I mean microtones! (grin)

Paolo


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## ptram

Vonk said:


> So tell us the story, what was troubling George Frideric?


I don't know, exactly. You know, lyrics for those baroque operas where not exactly linear. While composing, at night, Händel couldn't understand a passage. He went out in the fog, and started violently knocking at the door of the poet, pretending him to explain and rewrite that particularly obscure passage.

Paolo


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## ptram

re-peat said:


> Which very famous composer’s brother, a celebrated but reluctant musician himself, wheeled — in an act of vengeful bitterness — two large furniture trucks filled to the brim with family papers to two industrial incinerators


The brother of Johann Strauss Jr. One of the most damned names in the history of music.

Paolo


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## re-peat

Yes.

_


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## Vonk

You just beat me to it! I was thinking through wrrters of songs & operas, to fit the description and had just got around to waltzes and polkas, when I figured this one. 
Which work = coronavirus? Delerium polka?


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## re-peat

Vonk said:


> Which work = coronavirus?



Die Fledermaus. (Most scientists seem to be in agreement that bats are the most likely origin of the virus.)

Anyway, back to composers. Your turn again, isn't it, Paolo?


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## ptram

I would pass my turn, for now, gentlemen. If I’m allowed, I will have to attend to some family duties before late evening. But please, go on without me, sirs!

Paolo


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## fretti

ptram said:


> I would pass my turn, for now, gentlemen.


Just read a interesting interview containing the following quote:

„People will wonder about my accent-free German“

Because this could be anyone, another tip:
Another, really famous, composer said that he „made a career out of a solo cello“.
He‘s most famous for scoring two very successful tv shows (I believe).

(hope it‘s not too obvious)


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## Rob

If you didn't say "he" I'd have thought of a woman... (Hildur)


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## Vonk

Well it's not too obvious for me. Can't crack this one.


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## mikeh-375

Andrew Lloyd Weber...perhaps??


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## fretti

Vonk said:


> Well it's not too obvious for me. Can't crack this one.


Here‘s another tip:
While he‘s (IMO) a great composer, he‘s not yet sitting on the Throne of the industry

(Emphasis on Throne here  )


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## mikeh-375

...so not Weber then...Ramin Djawadi?


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## Rob

Djawadi?


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## mikeh-375

^^^...is there an echo in here?....


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## Rob

mikeh-375 said:


> ^^^...is there an echo in here?....


Damn I was too slow.


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## fretti

mikeh-375 said:


> Ramin Djawadi?


Yes! 
over to you


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## mikeh-375

to be fair @fretti, your clue was easy so thanks. My riddle(s) might be a bit harder, that is when I think of them.. 
@Rob....hahahahahahah...


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## mikeh-375

......At early rehearsals of a new work, the orchestra kicked a folded paper model of something relevant to the new piece under their seats to each other......what's the work and who's the composer?


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## re-peat

'Rugby' by Arthur Honegger?

_


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## mikeh-375

^^^excellent guess, but alas nothing more.


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## fretti

mikeh-375 said:


> to be fair @fretti, your clue was easy so thanks. My riddle(s) might be a bit harder, that is when I think of them..


It actually was  
Tbh I wasn't sure how aware people actually are of Ramin without mentioning GoT (or Westworld possibly). I think he's a great composer but flies under the radar of many people. I know tons of Game of Thrones fans who also love film music, but they have no clue 'who that guy is who wrote the music'


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## mikeh-375

The composer also sent up Wagner in a short piece as did a lot of his compatriots at the time because they where rebelling against the dominance of German expressionism and chromaticism and Wagner was the figurehead....any easier?


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## Vonk

mikeh-375 said:


> The composer also sent up Wagner in a short piece as did a lot of his compatriots at the time because they where rebelling against the dominance of German expressionism and chromaticism and Wagner was the figurehead....any easier?


Pure guess, because he was French and lived through the Franco Prussian war, and was known for a caustic sense of humour - Camille Saint Saens? As for the piece - not a clue - Carnival of the Animals? (certainly an unWagnerian piece...)


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## mikeh-375

No cigar yet @Vonk but you've got the nationality...….._walk_ to the Pastiserie and buy yourself a cake! 🎂🍰🥧


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## re-peat

'Cake' and 'walk' suggests Debussy ("Colliwog's ...") and the only work of his I can think of that might be the one we're looking for, is "Jeux" which is an evocation of a tennis game, so maybe those orchestra musicians made a kind of tennisball out of paper and kicked it around?

_


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## Vonk

re-peat said:


> 'Cake' and 'walk' suggests Debussy ("Colliwog's ...") and the only work of his I can think of that might be the one we're looking for, is "Jeux" which is an evocation of a tennis game, so maybe those orchestra musicians made a kind of tennisball out of paper and kicked it around?
> 
> _


Or maybe they kicked a Golliwog around?


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## mikeh-375

well done chaps...but only halfway there. Yes, it's Debussy and the middle section of his Golliwog's Cakewalk quotes Tristan and Isolde in mocking terms. So about the music, well here is another easy peasy clue.
The piece of paper was a paper ship....there I've all but given it to you. First to reply carries the game on ..


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## Vonk

mikeh-375 said:


> well done chaps...but only halfway there. Yes, it's Debussy and the middle section of his Golliwog's Cakewalk quotes Tristan and Isolde in mocking terms. So about the music, well here is another easy peasy clue.
> The piece of paper was a paper ship....there I've all but given it to you. First to reply carries the game on ..


La mer


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## mikeh-375

over to you @Vonk.


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## Vonk

This composer's opera famously got him into trouble for the sexual antics of the brass section.

I suspect anything I happen to know is rather easy for the rest of you - judging by the standard so far - good luck!


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## muk

Shostakovich. I'm not 100% certain, but I think it's Lady Macbeth of Mzensk.


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## mikeh-375

R Strauss...Salome???


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## mikeh-375

...oohh Muk's answer sounds more plausible because of Stalin and that newspaper critique


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## Vonk

muk said:


> Shostakovich. I'm not 100% certain, but I think it's Lady Macbeth of Mzensk.


Correct! It wasn't just Stalin who objected to having his ears rattled. An American critic memorably objected to the "brutal animalism" and went on "Shostakovich is without doubt the foremost composer of pornagraphic music in the history of art." I think that's a worthy line for anyones CV. Over to you Muk.


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## muk

Ok, this composer accidentally stabbed himself to death while conducting one of his own pieces.

(It's slightly over-dramatized, couldn't resist. In essence it's true).


----------



## re-peat

Lully?

_


----------



## Vonk

re-peat said:


> Lully?
> 
> _


LIve and learn on this forum..... Didn't know this story.


----------



## muk

re-peat said:


> Lully?
> 
> _



Yes, Lully. Apparently he wanted to tap on the floor with a walking stick to call the musicians attention. He accidentally hit one of his toes. The toe caught gangrene, and Lully died from it. Tragically, the accident happened during a performance of his 'Te Deum', which was given to celebrate the kings recovery from difficult surgery. 

Over to you again Piet.


----------



## re-peat

I can’t immediately think of another juicy anecdote or interesting bit of trivia just now, except that Haydn is buried with two skulls (one fake, obviously), so I hope the following question is allowed too. Who wrote *this*, _sometime between his/her 12th and 14th birthday_?


----------



## mikeh-375

wild guess..Nannerl Mozart


----------



## Vonk

I think it might be Mendelssohn


----------



## re-peat

Yes, it's Mendelssohn.
(The piece posted is the andante from his 12th String Symphony.)

_Goethe: "What this little man can do in extemporizing and playing at sight borders on the miraculous, and I could not have believed it possible at so early an age." "And yet you heard Mozart in his seventh year at Frankfurt?" said Zelter. "Yes", answered Goethe, "... but what your pupil already accomplishes, bears the same relation to the Mozart of that time as the cultivated talk of a grown-up person bears to the prattle of a child."_

_


----------



## Vonk

OK something different, not exactly a riddle, or maybe a riddle for the ears. I'm not (yet) a professional, but a hobbyist. Whose work am I shamelessly ripping off (paying homage to) here? This piece was an exercise in getting to know a couple of libraries. If you want you can guess which.


----------



## mikeh-375

...sounds English to me, but then anything modal does to us Islanders. RVW perhaps. Nice lilting piece though.


----------



## Vonk

Not English, no. That'll be me probably, anglicising things. The original is not nationally characteristic perhaps. Long ago my father gave me a recording, which has been a favourite of mine ever since. Here is an extract. Composer, or soloist anyone?


----------



## muk

That's the Myaskovsky cello concerto! No idea who the performer could be. Maybe a recording of the first performance even? That would be fantastic. I don't know who played that though.


----------



## Vonk

Well done! It is Rostropovich. My recording is a from a tape my father made off the radio, but there is a recording available of the same performance. I love it.


----------



## mikeh-375

Thanks @Vonk, I don't know that concerto, but I'm going to make sure I rectify that. A lovely piece by the sound of it...


----------



## muk

Comes to mind that I should post a new riddle.

Ok, this is a curious one. This person is known as the big preventer in the history of the first half of the 19th century art. He is seen as the cause for Beethoven's unproductive period between 1814 and 1818, as well as the main reason why Beethoven did not write the tenth symphony. He tried to make Meyerbeer stop to continuosly write operas. He led Rossini to find his true passion: cooking.
'His contribution to the history of Western culture is given expression in the non-existence of works, works that never came into existence because of his courageous, sacrificial intervention.'

If that is too difficult, you can alternatively solve this one: This composer loved to smoke the pipe, he had a horse and liked to ride every day. He was a gentle and loving husband and father - when his wife was sick, he took to ride out on 5am so that he could spend the rest of the day with her. He had a small travel piano, sort of a stage piano avant la lettre. He also had a bird that could whistle a melody from his works, which made him proud and happy. When the bird died, he wrote a poem for it.

Both riddles are connected. But the connection is only apparent if you can solve the first one, which is probably quite difficult.


----------



## Living Fossil

muk said:


> Ok, this is a curious one. This person is known as the big preventer in the history of the first half of the 19th century art.



Muk, just to clarify: This first person was a composer too?


----------



## mikeh-375

a punt in the wind...Ferdinand Ries?


----------



## muk

No, not a composer. His sole 'creation' was preventing works of art from being created. He was in contact with composers and writers, and tried to cure them from overzealousness.

Mike, the first or the second one? Alas, no to either.

The person from the first riddle is probably only known to German speaking people, if at all. He is an unjustly obscure figure in the history of art.

The person of the second riddle should be known to all people on this forum.


----------



## TGV

muk said:


> Ok, this is a curious one. This person is known as the big preventer in the history of the first half of the


No idea, but very interesting.


----------



## mikeh-375

for the second riddle...Bernard Herrman...at least he smoked a pipe..


----------



## muk

Not Herrmann. The composer from the second riddle lived slightly before the person from the first riddle. It's a bit of a stretch to say that though, as he first person is a fictional character.


----------



## muk

Let me give another clue to the second person: one of his and his families favourite pastime was 'Bölzlschiessen' - shooting with an airgun at decorated targets. The targets were painted with a picture and text, and usually poked fun on one of the participants. It's mentioned quite often in the letters of this composer.


----------



## mikeh-375

Mozart? Haydn?


----------



## muk

It's Mozart!

The guy from the first riddle is Gottlieb Theodor Pilz, a fictional character created by Wolfgang Hildesheimer. It's in his book 'Lieblose Legenden', a collection of satirical short stories about the world of artists and intellectuals. Exceedingly funny, intelligent, and thought provoking.

Wolfgang Hildesheimer is also the author of a very important book about/biography of Wolfgang Amadé Mozart. In it he writes against the then popular image of Mozart as a childish rockstar genius. His characterization is much the opposite of the Mozart in the famous movie 'Amadeus', for instance. Despite some of his own descriptions and theses have been proven wrong in the meantime, it's still an essential read.

Over to you, Mike.


----------



## mikeh-375

good stuff @muk. 
I'll think on it...hold the front page.


----------



## mikeh-375

So....(God I really hate that word being used at the start of a sentence)
I want to _manufacture_ a Waltz. I get 2 dice, throw them, add up the two numbers and subtract 1. Who is the composer who wants me to do this and why the fu*k do I need two dice anyway?.... easier clues will follow if no-one gets it.....tee hee heee heeee


----------



## Rob

something to do with "minus one" series?


----------



## Vonk

I don't know the answer to this. I do know that " aleatoric" means something like "dice music". I also know that there was a fashion in the 18th C. for composing using preset phrases selected by a roll of the dice. Bit like a Sonuscore library. Anything remotely "getting warmer" here?


----------



## Living Fossil

mikeh-375 said:


> So....(God I really hate that word being used at the start of a sentence)
> I want to _manufacture_ a Waltz. I get 2 dice, throw them, add up the two numbers and subtract 1. Who is the composer who wants me to do this and why the fu*k do I need two dice anyway?.... easier clues will follow if no-one gets it.....tee hee heee heeee




Mozart wrote some waltzes with dices.


----------



## mikeh-375

oooh its getting warm around you @Vonk, sorry @Rob.....damn I thought this would stump you all


----------



## Rob

need two dice because the number has to be in the 7 to 11 range? nth hole in the water...


----------



## Living Fossil

mikeh-375 said:


> oooh its getting warm around you @Vonk, sorry @Rob.....damn I thought this would stump you all



What's wrong with Mozart's waltzes with dices??
Or did you put me on your ignore list?


----------



## Rob

Maximilian Stadler?
I wonder why Living Fossil isn't posting guesses...


----------



## Vonk

I had to look this up , and Bach's contemporary dice man was Johann Kimberger - is this who you mean?


----------



## Vonk

Tum ti tum. The riddlemeister has gone for a prolonged cup of tea. And two of you went for a "Rondo", but only one survived....


----------



## mikeh-375

sorry guys. I got called away for wine not tea, and missed your response @Living Fossil which was posted as I was typing. Of course our glorious OP has won the prize with @Vonk a close second and so the mantle is formally passed over....I thought I'd be able to tease you all for days with that one....damn, I'm gonna have to try harder assuming I get another one right.

FYI It's about Mozart's Musikalisches Wurfelspiel. A game with 176 pre composed bars in a 11X16 configuration. The dices determine where in the config you get your bars come from. Apparently there are 46 million billion configs or waltzes to be had....who needs AI.


----------



## Living Fossil

Ok, new riddle.

In this one, there are two protagonists. Both wonderful composers but different in their vision.
So there was an occasion where one of the two played his own piano concerto and the other one conducted. 
Not that unusual. 
However, what the directing composer obviously didn't like that much was the fact the the playing composer was drunk while playing.


----------



## mikeh-375

WHAT....A COMPOSER......….DRUNK!!!!!.....REALLY???
oooh this sounds like a good one....


----------



## Rob

Rachmaninoff?

edit: no, I see that in your post the composer was conducting... and that one I'm thinking of was a symphony not a piano concerto


----------



## Living Fossil

Rob, it's really getting hot, however, Rachmaninoff wasn't drunk at that concert.


----------



## mikeh-375

...perhaps Glazunov himself, a well know plonky


----------



## Living Fossil

mikeh-375 said:


> ...perhaps Glazunov himself, a well know plonky



While i know that the aforementioned Rachmaninov wasn't drunk during that concert, i don't know if that was also the case with Glasunov. Or if he was at that concert at all.


----------



## mikeh-375

...still stumped here, any more clues?


----------



## Living Fossil

mikeh-375 said:


> ...still stumped here, any more clues?



do you hear music or do you rather _see_ music? Or maybe both?


----------



## Marko Zirkovich

Living Fossil said:


> do you hear music or do you rather _see_ music? Or maybe both?


Scriabin?


----------



## Living Fossil

Marko Zirkovich said:


> Scriabin?



Correct!

It was a Moscow Philharmonic concert that took place in 1911. Rachmaninov conducted while Scriabin played his own concerto - obviously drunk.
I wasn't there (a matter of my age) and can't confirm, but it says that Rachmaninov got quite nervous when he realised his fellow mate was obviously drunk while performing his own piece.
However, what a fantastic constellation with those two wonderful and yet so different composers at a young age....

Over to Marko!


----------



## mikeh-375

....are there any reviews or first hand reports?


----------



## Living Fossil

mikeh-375 said:


> ....are there any reviews or first hand reports?



The problem is that i first heard this anecdote about 10 years ago and didn't saved the sources, so unfortunately i forgot where i read it first.

I know that Michael Scott mentions the issue in his Rachmaninoff book but unfortunately i don't own it, so i can't search for his list of references...
Maybe there's a forum member who is fluent in Russian, i guess it would make it easier to look for the sources.


----------



## Marko Zirkovich

Living Fossil said:


> Over to Marko!



I'm teaching the next few hours - and I also need to think of something that's worthy of this crowd. If somebody has a riddle to post, please feel free to do so. I'll add my contribution later.


----------



## youngpokie

Sorry if this is out of turn, but here goes - which composer said this:

_"Le Poème de l'extase" and "Prometheus" are severe cases of musical emphysema"_


----------



## youngpokie

Living Fossil said:


> The problem is that i first heard this anecdote about 10 years ago and didn't saved the sources, so unfortunately i forgot where i read it first.



I read the memoirs of a Moscow Conservatory teacher, Alexander Goldenweiser, (it was during my Russian phase) and he mentions this episode there, but not the fact that Scriabin was drunk. 

He says that Scriabin had a right hand injury since his 20s and because of that he was always worried that he would ruin a performance. In 1911, Rachmaninov was, for two seasons, the conductor of Moscow Philharmonic Society. The program for December 10, 1911 concert included Scriabin's 1st Symphony and Piano Concerto. Rachmaninov and Scriabin rehearsed it on two pianos/4 hands and the following day with a full orchestra, and the more people were present the more nervous Scriabin became. This also happened during the concert and Rachmaninov called his playing "extremely uneven". It's also interesting that during this period the Moscow musical press was quite hostile to Scriabin (claiming he was gradually going insane, etc) so it's possible that him being drunk was a rumor or slander.


----------



## Living Fossil

youngpokie said:


> It's also interesting that during this period the Moscow musical press was quite hostile to Scriabin (claiming he was gradually going insane, etc) so it's possible that him being drunk was a rumor or slander.



Thanks for your post, @youngpokie !
It's a pity that i don't remember where i read the anecdote, but i'm quite sure to remember this issue was not brought up by the press but was told by somebody involved. I'll keep researching...
/Google search brings up the passage in Michael Scott's book, if i have i free hour i'll investige further.


----------



## youngpokie

Living Fossil said:


> Thanks for your post, @youngpokie !
> It's a pity that i don't remember where i read the anecdote, but i'm quite sure to remember this issue was not brought up by the press but was told by somebody involved. I'll keep researching...
> /Google search brings up the passage in Michael Scott's book, if i have i free hour i'll investige further.



Sounds good. I can also post the page from the book where I read it; I love these intriguing anecdotes so it would be fun to investigate! 

FWIW, my riddle involves two Russians


----------



## Rob

the tone of this sentence seems that of Stravinsky...


----------



## youngpokie

Rob said:


> the tone of this sentence seems that of Stravinsky...



Bingo! Wow, I thought it was going to be a tricky one! 

EDIT: The backstory (to me at least) is fascinating. Scriabin attended the premier of Petrushka in Paris and was offended by the ballet seemingly exploiting the stereotype of Russians as wild savages. So he called the ballet the epitome of boorishness, which generated this reply from Stravinsky.


----------



## Rob

maybe it's easier for me to recognize Igor's wit having read several of his books...
anyway, here's mine, apologizing in advance for my broken English:
In order to prove that the reluctance towards atonal music was only a matter of culture, and had no biological basis, this composer/author tried to raise his baby daughter letting her cry for milk for some time, while listening to Chopin or other romantic sweet music, and then playing a recording of Schoenberg and immediately giving her the bottle, so she could associate suffering with Chopin and pleasure with Schoenberg  Heard this from the author in a recorded conference...


----------



## mikeh-375

^^^^good grief...


----------



## Vonk

Well if he just played _Verklärte Nacht_ then I would have been a happy baby.


----------



## mikeh-375

how about Webern? Not sure if Schoenberg was recorded before the end of WW2 though....!
It's definitely someone with a vested interest in dodecaphony....hmmm....Dallapiccola????


----------



## Living Fossil

Luigi Nono would have had personal reasons to do this...
(i met his wife, Nuria Schoenberg, about 15 years ago. What an amazing person)


----------



## Vonk

Pure guess. Pierre Boulez?


----------



## mikeh-375

Living Fossil said:


> Luigi Nono would have had personal reasons to do this...
> (i met his wife, Nuria Schoenberg, about 15 years ago. What an amazing person)


that's cool, how did it come about??


----------



## Rob

no, not Weber, Fromthelittle, Nono or Boulez... there's a hint I can give which would put you on the right path, but I'd like to let some more time pass...


----------



## mikeh-375

Rob said:


> no, not Weber, Fromthelittle, Nono or Boulez... there's a hint I can give which would put you on the right path, but I'd like to let some more time pass...





Rob said:


> no, not Weber, Fromthelittle, Nono or Boulez... there's a hint I can give which would put you on the right path, but I'd like to let some more time pass...


you're just hoggin' the limelight now Rob.....you tease...


----------



## Rob

ok, his most famous work is not a composition, but a book, which has been said to have influenced some great (IMO) American musician. The fact that I say IMO is a hint in itself, if you know me...


----------



## José Herring

Rob said:


> ok, his most famous work is not a composition, but a book, which has been said to have influenced some great (IMO) American musician. The fact that I say IMO is a hint in itself, if you know me...


I have two possibilities. First one is Nicolas Slonimsky


----------



## Rob

Bravo, bull's eye, Jose! found his lecture, it was at Berkeley Piano Club in 1971.

link: 

it's fun


----------



## Rob

Now's to you!


----------



## José Herring

Mine would be totally stupid and not cool like yours, but i will give it a shot in a little bit.


----------



## Living Fossil

mikeh-375 said:


> that's cool, how did it come about??



It was during a symposion about Luigi Dallapiccola [also known as "Fromthelittle" © @Rob ]

@Rob : Do you know what the outcome of this experiment was?

@josejherring : As long as you don't ask _"who wrote Beethoven's composition <Für Elise>?"_ i'm sure it won't be stupid...


----------



## mikeh-375

Rob said:


> Bravo, bull's eye, Jose! found his lecture, it was at Berkeley Piano Club in 1971.
> 
> link:
> 
> it's fun




What a splendid sesquiquadritone of an anecdote.


----------



## Rob

Living Fossil said:


> @Rob : Do you know what the outcome of this experiment was?


If I remember correctly she said it didn't affect her at all... she even had to defend his father who was accused of abuse by someone...


----------



## José Herring

Okay, I'll give it a shot but I'm not clever when it comes to this kind of stuff.

He studied science, philosophy and music and while he was a prolific composer only a few works were published. But, he helped create master composers of two musical epochs.


----------



## muk

Simon Sechter? He was the teacher of both Schubert and Bruckner.


----------



## José Herring

muk said:


> Simon Sechter? He was the teacher of both Schubert and Bruckner.


Good guess but no.


----------



## José Herring

muk said:


> Simon Sechter? He was the teacher of both Schubert and Bruckner.


Closer in time. I should say the end of one epoch and the start of another.


----------



## José Herring

Okay I see I brought this thread to a screeching halt.

I will give clues.

The first clue....

His book on composition helped define the musical language of the later periods of Mozart and Hayden as well as Beethoven, Czery and Hummel.


----------



## Living Fossil

@josejherring : ok, it's neither Fux nor Mattheson nor Kirnberger nor Schubart.
Give us some more time...


----------



## Living Fossil

...could it be Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach? Not sure if he studied philosophy though...


----------



## José Herring

Living Fossil said:


> @josejherring : ok, it's neither Fux nor Mattheson nor Kirnberger nor Schubart.
> Give us some more time...



I am new to the game. How much more time? I want to keep it fun while not revealing how much of a geek I can be.


----------



## José Herring

Living Fossil said:


> ...could it be Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach? Not sure if he studied philosophy though...


No. But I always thought he was a great composer. Very underrated.


----------



## Living Fossil

josejherring said:


> I am new to the game. How much more time?



That's all up to you...  You decide when you want to give another clue...


----------



## Living Fossil

is it maybe JP Rameau?


----------



## José Herring

Living Fossil said:


> is it maybe JP Rameau?


No but excellent guess. 

I'll give another clue. He also taught the youngest of Wolfgang and Constanza Mozart's children.


----------



## José Herring

The last clue I can give.

The only composer I know that wrote concertos for Mouth Harp and orchestra.


----------



## José Herring

josejherring said:


> The last clue I can give.
> 
> The only composer I know that wrote concertos for Mouth Harp and orchestra.


Also called "Jew's Harp" if that helps. I just didn't put that name because it sounds a bit derogatory to me.


----------



## rhizomusicosmos

Albrechtsberger?


----------



## José Herring

rhizomusicosmos said:


> Albrechtsberger?


Yeah!

The missing link between thorough bass and late classical early romantic harmony.


----------



## rhizomusicosmos

Hmm, maybe this one is too easy:

A prolific English composer who was also a spy.


----------



## mikeh-375

easy,,,,Gustav Bond.....

Actually, joking aside, I know Holst isn't the answer, but during the first WW he wasn't above suspicion from the locals given his heritage.


----------



## rhizomusicosmos

Well this composer was in high demand for writing sad music.


----------



## Vonk

I had to look this up I'll admit, but I knew I had read something once in the paper about a British musician who acted as a spy at the last Bayreuth festival before WWII, befriending the Nazi elite. His name was Charles Turner, but I don't know about him being a prolific composer - I've never encountered any of his music. Is this your man?


----------



## rhizomusicosmos

Sorry, no. This composer pre-dates the 20th Century but his music is still widely played.

He wasn't an orchestral composer but played a stringed instrument that is less popular today.


----------



## Vonk

Aha. I think this must be the lachrymose lute player John Dowland. Didn't know he was a spy. But perhaps everybody frequenting the courts of Europe in the 16th century was a spy of some kind.


----------



## mikeh-375

damn @Vonk...you beat me to it...well done.
Another good riddle @rhizomusicosmos


----------



## rhizomusicosmos

@Vonk, it is indeed John Dowland. Well done. It seems he dabbled in espionage for queen and country.


----------



## Vonk

This composer's will left his mortal remains to be displayed in an institution devoted to his work.

Turning in for the night. Will check in tomorrow.


----------



## Vonk

The offer was declined. The rather eccentric collection of his possessions and his work remains.


----------



## Vonk

No takers? Here's another clue. He used to make his own clothes. Unfortunately they weren't very good, and he was mistaken for a tramp on more than one occasion.


----------



## Vonk

He was not born in America, but for a while held the record there as the most published composer. In some years he gave over a hundred concert performances.


----------



## TGV

Really no idea. I vaguely recall one of the Italian opera composers being badly dressed, but I can't find that any of them made their own clothes, let alone the rest. Interesting!


----------



## Vonk

A vituoso pianist, he was aquainted with, and admired by, many composers and artists as a young man, including Grieg (whose piano concerto he performed), Elgar, & Vaughan Williams. He was an avid collector of folk songs and tunes, which he recorded with a primitive phonagraph and transcribed. This included recordings of Polynesian and Maori music.


----------



## mikeh-375

percy grainger?


----------



## Vonk

So I won't have to clue you that he pushed another composer up a Norweigan mountain (Delius), and that his collection of whips he used for sex is also stored in the museum in Melbourne.
You have it - the rather peculiar genius - Percy Grainger.


----------



## mikeh-375

wow, great stuff @Vonk, learning some neat facts here


----------



## Vonk

To be honest I only knew about the skeleton story and the Delius connection. I enjoyed learning about the other stuff with a bit of research. Londonderry Air will never sound quite the same again...


----------



## mikeh-375

I'll pas guys....any takers?


----------



## Living Fossil

ok, there's a new one, however one of the simpler kind:
Which composer went to see Kurt Weill's Dreigroschenoper with a fake beard?


----------



## Vonk

Are we talking the first original production in Berlin?


----------



## Living Fossil

@Vonk : no, not in Berlin. But since the opera was played quite soon after its premiere in some other cities, this event took place only few time after the premiere.


----------



## JohnG

This is such a fun thread.


----------



## Vonk

Living Fossil said:


> ok, there's a new one, however one of the simpler kind:
> Which composer went to see Kurt Weill's Dreigroschenoper with a fake beard?


I think we need another clue. . .


----------



## Living Fossil

Vonk said:


> I think we need another clue. . .




Ok, the reason for wearing this fake beard was his teacher (teacher of composition) to whom he had life long strong ties. His teacher didn't went to see the "Dreigroschenoper".


----------



## rhizomusicosmos

Was he one of Schoenberg's students?


----------



## Living Fossil

rhizomusicosmos said:


> Was he one of Schoenberg's students?



Yes!


----------



## Vonk

I've seen Alban Berg cited as an influence on Weill. Was it him?


----------



## Living Fossil

It was Alban Berg, yes!

The fake beard was supposed to serve as a camouflage since Schönberg forbid his (former) pupils to visit the performance of the "Dreigroschenoper".


----------



## Vonk

Was he afraid for their moral corruption or their musical corruption!?


----------



## mikeh-375

Berg had already fallen from the Method...Schoenberg still loved him though.


----------



## Living Fossil

mikeh-375 said:


> Berg had already fallen from the Method...Schoenberg still loved him though.



Not at all, the opera Lulu has an outstanding implementation of 12tone rows. 
However, in his heart Berg never really left tonality; he thought a lot of integrating tonal elements into his rows (most obviously in his violin concerto)

In addition, Berg had obviously a faible for "easier" music; in Lulu, there is a Jazz-Band on the stage.

Schönberg, while getting back to tonality at times, cultivated some bizarre types of aversion against many kinds of music...

@Vonk , it's your turn!


----------



## Vonk

This composer was not good with deadlines. On the day scheduled for the first performance the work was unfinished. The composer was locked in a room where he threw completed manuscipt pages out of a window to a waiting band of copyists who then prepared the parts. 

Detective work or guesswork - either is welcome. It's quite a well known story.


----------



## mikeh-375

...oh that does ring a bell...Mozart..perhaps?


----------



## Vonk

Not Mozart. I think this is an easy one so no more clues just yet.


----------



## mikeh-375

I've got it in mind this relates to Opera..


----------



## Vonk

Warm.


----------



## mikeh-375

Verdi? no...Rossini.


----------



## Vonk

Well you can't have your cake and eat it!


----------



## mikeh-375

lol...can't blame a bloke for tryin'...ok....Rossini.


----------



## mikeh-375

....no wait....


----------



## mikeh-375

......erm....


----------



## mikeh-375

....just kidding to add some tension.


----------



## Vonk

Yes Rossini. The story is the promoter locked him in the room with four heavies (stage hands). If the pages weren't forthcoming they were to throw him out the window instead. You gotta love promoters... (actually I do - I used to be one )


----------



## mikeh-375

...and no googling...get in there.
It's a great story and has put me in mind of a new riddle. I need to check a few facts first...I'll be Bach.


----------



## mikeh-375

Who do Errol Flynn, Blake Edwards, Johnny Mercer, Heifetz and a world famous and contemporary (as in alive), female concert violinist have in common? (I was going to mention the violinist's name but felt it might give an already easy riddle away too readily).


----------



## Vonk

Might the violinist be Nicola Benedetti?


----------



## mikeh-375

good guess, but nope.


----------



## Vonk

Well I can tie some of them to Korngold +(+Hilary Hahn?) and some to Mancini, but not all of them to either.....


----------



## muk

Is the violinist Anne-Sophie Mutter? If so, my guess would be Robin Hood.


----------



## mikeh-375

@Vonk, nice try again...but....no.

@muk, you've got the violinist. I don't understand the Robin Hood bit though, but perhaps you now know who it is. Oh yes, I see, an Errol Flynn joke ...didn't know Heifetz knew him too.
I thought this might be easy, we'll see. More clues to come if you are all struggling.


----------



## mikeh-375




----------



## mikeh-375




----------



## re-peat

My first thought, yesterday, was André Previn (based solely on the violinist clue, I must confess: husband and wife) but as I don’t know Previn's link with Flynn or Heifetz, I didn’t post.

The two YouTube clips however make me think that that first thought might have been correct after all, since Previn was heavily involved with the movie adaptations of both “My Fair Lady” and “Porgy & Bess”.

So: André Previn?

_


----------



## mikeh-375

You got it re-peat.
As you may know, he won 4 oscars and was nominated many more times, all in about 10-15 years iirc. Two of those Oscars where for 'My Fair Lady' and 'Porgy and Bess'.
During his time in Hollywood he knew all the people I mentioned and many more.
One story of his concerns the director Blake Edwards. Previn was handed a gold coloured key to a lady's flat he was seeing at that time. One night on leaving her apartment, he was going down a staircase and Edwards was coming up. They both noticed they had a gold key, laughed and went for dinner.
I'm glad someone got it before the inevitable Morecombe and Wise clue.

Over to you......


----------



## re-peat

Which composer’s tragic death is described (some have suggested “prophesied”), unwittingly yet in startling detail, in his own (final) work?

_


----------



## mikeh-375

...is this a numbers question?


----------



## re-peat

A numbers question? No. We're looking for a composer whose final (unfinished) work had lyrics — or a libretto, if you prefer — that spoke of death in a manner remarkably close to how the composer himself was about to meet his end. Very tragic and unsettling affair. 20th century.

_


----------



## mikeh-375

the "numbers" referred to Schoenberg and his superstitions. He didn't complete Moses und Aaron of course, but I'm not sure about the coincidences between that work and his death. Schoenberg did personally relate to the story so I'll take a guess with him anyway...


----------



## muk

Bernd Alois Zimmermann?


----------



## re-peat

No, not Schoenberg. And not Zimmermann either.

Here are two comments on the man we're looking for:

"It's hard to say why he has been so neglected. (…) Is it because he wrote sensual, intensely personal music which doesn't conveniently fit into any modernistic school? Is it because he was gay? It's unfortunate that the one thing people do know about him is that he died a violent death, which gives his legacy an aura of sickly glamour. But it's time to reappraise his work as music, not just the soundtrack to a lurid biography."

“He did seem to set his course to self-destruct, which makes it very hard to separate the life from the art. (…) But I'm convinced that, if he had lived, he would have become an icon of contemporary music."

_


----------



## Bark

If I'm right this is a link to a student of Stockhausen. I had to look up his name but I remembered the story, I'm unashamed to say, from an issue of Fortean Times long ago.
Claude Vivier, a fellow Canadian.


----------



## re-peat

Vivier it is.

"On the night of March 8 1983, the 35-year-old French-Canadian composer Claude Vivier was found stabbed to death in his Paris apartment. On the worktable was the manuscript of Vivier's final, uncompleted work, _Glaubst du an die Unsterblichkeit der Seele?_, a dramatised monologue in which Vivier describes a journey on the metro during which he becomes attracted to a young man. The music breaks off abruptly following the line: "Then he removed a dagger from his jacket and stabbed me through the heart."

_


----------



## mikeh-375

wow..


----------



## Bark

I've been lurking for a while, was thrilled to actually guess this - hadn't a clue about most of the others. I'm busy for a few hours but will try to think of something soon.
Bark


----------



## Bark

This composers work, somewhat adapted, features in a renowned literary work written 30 years after his death.


----------



## Bark

Of the novel one critic wrote "one of the top 10 greatest books of all time". Another "I find [it] crushingly dull".
Of the composer, a fellow composer wrote " His canon is not a canon and his fugue is not a fugue".
Author? Novel? Composer?


----------



## mikeh-375

I've got nothing so far.....


----------



## Vonk

I'll have a guess at War & Peace, Tolstoy, but it's far from crushingly dull ....


----------



## Bark

Think French. Think cookies.


----------



## re-peat

French and cookies? Mmm ... "À la recherche du temps perdu" by Marcel Proust perhaps? (I'm suggesting this based on the novel's famous 'madeleine'-episode.) If so, then the composer would be the fictional Vinteuil.

__


----------



## Bark

Correct about Proust. While writing he became besotted with a particular piece and hired a string quartet to play it to him over & over again. In the novel it "becomes" a septet by Vinteuil. So who was the original composer - perhaps not best known for his chamber music?


----------



## re-peat

The model for the Vinteuil sonata has always been a bit of an enigma, isn’t it? Over the years, several names have been suggested as possible inspirations: Franck, Lekeu, Saint-Saëns, Pierné, Brahms, Fauré and even … Wagner.
Of those, the latter is the only one who “isn’t known for his chamber music”, so, and this is a very cautious guess, ... is it the Meistersinging Cross-dresser?

_


----------



## Bark

You're getting too clever for me. You are nearly there but not quite. You have the names on your list. Which one stated the quote I gave above and which one was on the receiving end of it? Also I said "not best known for" not "not known for".


----------



## re-peat

I have no idea about who stated the quote, but, after careful deliberation of all the other information you've given (plus some additional reading): is fellow Belgian *César Franck* the composer we’re looking for? 
I read somewhere that Franck's "String Quartet in D" appears to have been a particular favourite of Proust, and that the author did invite the Poulet Quartet to his home to perform the work for him.

_


----------



## Bark




----------



## Bark

You got it! The rude remarks came from Saint Saens about one of Franck's organ pieces. I don't know whether they were made in jest or in earnest. Apparently the quartet were grateful for the patronage as they had little work in the later days of WWI. Proust's work on his seven volume epic had stalled, and he found the music, over repeated performances, a source of renewed inspiration. So the story goes anyway.....


----------



## re-peat

The relationship between Saint-Saëns and Franck was an odd one, going from very cordial at first, to rather soured (once Franck emerged as being a too forward-looking composer for Saint-Saëns' conservative tastes) and then, towards the end of Franck’s life, quite amical again. Saint-Saëns is said to be one of the authorative voices who recommended Franck for the post of organ professor at the Paris Conservatoire and he was also present at Franck’s funeral mass. But in between those two moments, yes, there was definitely some friction between them.

- - -

Anyway, here’s *a new challenge*: leaving the classical realm and visiting the world of jazz: which composer got increasingly scared to sleep with his wife — he eventually even moved her into a different house —, because he feared that she, scorned by his many infidelities, might cut his face while he was asleep, thus ruining his good looks, the pristine appearance of which was extremely important to him?

_


----------



## JohnG

muk said:


> Shostakovich. I'm not 100% certain, but I think it's Lady Macbeth of Mzensk.



Listened to some of it this morning -- no wonder Pravda didn't like it. It sounds like Alban Berg but with more muscle.

A most enjoyable thread!

[edit] also, this funny quotation is on Wikipedia about Shostakovich:

"During 1936 and 1937, in order to maintain as low a profile as possible between the Fourth and Fifth symphonies, Shostakovich mainly composed film music, a genre favored by Stalin and *lacking in dangerous personal expression*."


----------



## Vonk

Anyway, here’s *a new challenge*: leaving the classical realm and visiting the world of jazz: which composer got increasingly scared to sleep with his wife — he eventually even moved her into a different house —, because he feared that she, scorned by his many infidelities, might cut his face while he was asleep, thus ruining his good looks, the pristine appearance of which was extremely important to him?

_
[/QUOTE]

Duke Ellington had a scar on his cheek, donated by his wife.


----------



## re-peat

Ellington it is.

_


----------



## Vonk

The first ballet I ever was taken to was a Midsummer Nights Dream set to the music of Such Sweet Thunder. Late 50's I guess, and have been an Ellington fan ever since.

I'm out of anecdotes, so this is about connections

Which composer is fraternally linked, giddyly, by a kiss with a peroxide blonde, via a sample library, to an(other) oscar winner who famously talks to his reflection?


----------



## re-peat

“Oscar winner who famously talks to his reflection” suggests Robert “Are you talking to me?” De Niro, but from there, by way of a sample library (a Spitfire one, is it?) and a kissing peroxide blonde … I don’t know ... but I’m thinking of Bernard “Taxi Driver” Herrmann.

_


----------



## Vonk

I think you are right to work backwards and you are off to a good start.


----------



## Living Fossil

Vonk said:


> I think you are right to work backwards and you are off to a good start.



Does this mean that B. Herrmann was correct?


----------



## Vonk

Sorry - my reply wasn't clear. Going backwards De Niro to Herrmann, linked through the music to Taxi Driver is correct. You would need to keep going backwards through the clues to get to the orginal composer.


----------



## mikeh-375

does Jean Harlow have a connection?


----------



## Vonk

Not a bad try but no. Who did BH score for, and seek for your blonde there. I think the giddy clue isn't in quiet the right place. Giddy blonde. Giddy music. Find the blonde, connect the kiss, and your nearly there.


----------



## mikeh-375

Tippi H or Kim Novak?


----------



## re-peat

We aren’t looking for Dmitri Tiomkin by any chance? I got there via Marilyn Monroe, famous peroxide who threw a very famous kiss. My only problem is that I can’t connect her to Hitchcock except that she is recorded as being very interested to perform in “Marnie” after Grace Kelly dropped out.

Dmitri Tiomkin on the other hand is, of course, very easy to connect with Hitchcock, having scored four of his films.

_


----------



## Vonk

@re-peat Some near misses but no (pun intended)
@mikeh-375 Trying to have your cake and eat it again! Be decisive and you might be right.... Which one is giddyest?


----------



## mikeh-375

Vonk said:


> @re-peat Some near misses but no (pun intended)
> @mikeh-375 Trying to have your cake and eat it again! Be decisive and you might be right.... Which one is giddyest?


 Lol......Novak


----------



## Vonk

mikeh-375 said:


> Lol......Novak


Ok. You are right, but why?


----------



## mikeh-375

honestly, I've no bloody idea.....  ...yet


----------



## Vonk

I didnt think this was so hard. They always seem easy when you know the answer! I was going to go further from KIm Novak to Bernard Herrmann to Travis Bickle and then on to Travis Henderson and Ry Cooder. (Paris Texas). You've got off lightly. 
Anyway you've got De Nero/Travis Bickle back to B.H. via BHCT spitfire library to KIm Novak. The last link obviously because BH scored the film (which film remains to be established, but come on it's not as if there's a dizzying number of choices). So Novak is the link to being kissed in another film. It aint hard - it's in the title - and that will lead you to a fraternal connection to the composer we are seeking.
Can't spoon feed you more than that...........


----------



## mikeh-375

is there vertigo still....ha hahhahah...(that's a terrible pun..sorry)
Is the composer Liszt?


----------



## Vonk

mikeh-375 said:


> is there vertigo still....ha hahhahah...(that's a terrible pun..sorry)


Yes, terrible. Keep going.


----------



## Rob

Kiss me, stupid?


----------



## Vonk

Yes, @Rob keep going. One last link.


----------



## Rob

Dean Martin sings "'s wonderful" there right at the beginning... Gershwin?


----------



## Vonk

Rob said:


> Dean Martin sings "'s wonderful" there right at the beginning... Gershwin?


Ok, that's good enough. Ira Gershwin wrote the lyrics to "Kiss me stupid" and several other songs in the movie. He used several unpublished themes and songs from his deceased brother, though Previn has the music credit for the film as a whole. So yes, George Gershwin was the solution.

Phew! Over & out for now.


----------



## mikeh-375

That..s'bloody shame, I wondered about Gershwin when that film came up on a s'google.


----------



## Rob

mikeh-375 said:


> That..s'bloody shame, I wondered about Gershwin when that film came up on a s'google.


Since you were the one to get Novak right I'll gladly hand the baton over to you Mike. I have at the moment no interesting idea for the thread and a pile of work to do...


----------



## Rob

Vonk said:


> Ok, that's good enough. Ira Gershwin wrote the lyrics to "Kiss me stupid" and several other songs in the movie. He used several unpublished themes and songs from his deceased brother, though Previn has the music credit for the film as a whole. So yes, George Gershwin was the solution.
> 
> Phew! Over & out for now.


That's interesting, didn't know that, thank you Vonk!


----------



## mikeh-375

Rob said:


> Since you were the one to get Novak right I'll gladly hand the baton over to you Mike. I have at the moment no interesting idea for the thread and a pile of work to do...



ok Rob...good luck with the work. I'll think on it.


----------



## mikeh-375

..here's a teaser..

Huckleberry Finn, Westminster and testicles.......yes, I mean...testicles....both of 'em.


----------



## mikeh-375

...where is everybody?


----------



## Living Fossil

mikeh-375 said:


> ...where is everybody?



I spent the whole last 36 hours searching the internet for a supersized Agatha-Christie-memorial cookie that i wanted to hand over (of course virtually) to @Vonk for his super-riddle and all the contributors who helped solving it .
Unfortunately i didn't find one and now i'm doing an online course on making cookies (i took the starter package and also the "step two - add raisins" course.
Now i need to find a "coining of cookies" tutorial... just some more patience...


----------



## Vonk

mikeh-375 said:


> ...where is everybody?
> 
> 
> Are we talking about the bizarre demise of a Bohemian I've never heard of until today? Putting"Vine Street" and " testicles" into Google took me to some uncomfortable places.


----------



## mikeh-375

Sorry about that @Vonk...
You've got it though....Frantisek Kotzwara. Here's the tale via Wiki......

........The only piece of his to have achieved renown is _https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Battle_of_Prague&action=edit&redlink=1 (The Battle of Prague)_, a composition based on the 1757 Battle of Prague, in which the Kingdom of Prussia fought the Habsburg Monarchy. _The Battle of Prague_ was a popular piece of music during the late 18th and 19th centuries, with Mark Twain mentioning the piece in his books _Adventures of Huckleberry Finn_ and _A Tramp Abroad_,[2] and by Thomas Hardy in _A Pair Of Blue Eyes_. A similar piece, _The Siege of Quebec_, often attributed to Kotzwara, is probably an arrangement by de Krift using assorted materials of Kotzwara.

On September 2, 1791 while he was in London, Kotzwara visited a prostitute named Susannah Hill in Vine Street, Westminster. After dinner with her in her lodgings, Kotzwara paid her two shillings and requested that she cut off his testicles. Hill refused to do so. Kotzwara then tied a ligature around the doorknob, the other end fastened around his neck, and proceeded to have sexual intercourse with Hill. After it was over, Kotzwara was dead. His is one of the first recorded deaths from erotic asphyxiation.[3]

Susannah Hill was tried on September 16 for Kotzwara's murder at the Old Bailey but was acquitted as the jury accepted her testimony about the nature of Kotzwara's death. The court records of the case were supposedly destroyed in order to avoid a public scandal, though it is likely that some kind of copy was made. It is believed that this copy was used to produce a pamphlet about the incident, including Hill's account of the event.[4] A 2005 radio competition organised by the Radio Prague station led a listener to reveal that these court records had in fact not been destroyed, and somehow found their way to the Francis Countway Library of Medicine in Boston.

In 1984 a paper about Kotzwara's death was published in the _American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology_, entitled "The sticky end of Frantisek Koczwara, composer of _The Battle of Prague_".[5] A pamphlet, _Modern Propensities_, with details of the trial and an article about auto-erotic asphyxiation was published in London about 1797.

Yikes....


----------



## Vonk

Would someone else like a go in my place please?


----------



## MariGea

Vonk said:


> Would someone else like a go in my place please?



Can I join the game? :D


----------



## Living Fossil

MariGea said:


> Can I join the game? :D



Of course you can, you're very welcome!


----------



## MariGea

Living Fossil said:


> Of course you can, you're very welcome!



Ok! here is one, maybe everyone knows it already, but it is my favorite:

This composer observed a famous artist who was naked and riding on top of a mop all the while urinating in an antique vase. And this whole episode was accompanied by one of his most famous compositions.


----------



## mikeh-375

crikey...riding on top of a mop.....!!!!!! The mind boggles. It sounds like a good one though but I have no idea. I for one might need more clues.


----------



## MariGea

mikeh-375 said:


> crikey...riding on top of a mop.....!!!!!! The mind boggles. It sounds like a good one though but I have no idea. I for one might need more clues.



Little hint:






+


----------



## muk

Chatshaturjan watched Dalí? I've never heard of that story!


----------



## MariGea

muk said:


> Chatshaturjan watched Dalí? I've never heard of that story!




Yes, you got it! :D

Bonus art:


----------



## muk

Alright, this composer, and his whole family died of mushroom poisoning. They collected mushrooms together with a friend, a doctor. Then they went to a restaurant and asked the cook to prepare the mushrooms they had gathered for them. He declined to do so, because he said that they were poisonous. Their friend, the doctor, however, insisted that they were edible. When they couldn't bring the cook to prepare a dish for them, they went home and prepared the meal themselves. The same night they died of mushroom poisoning.


----------



## Vonk

German or Polish perhaps - they are avid wild mushroom eaters....


----------



## muk

Good guess! German indeed.


----------



## cuttime

muk said:


> Chatshaturjan watched Dalí? I've never heard of that story!











Aram Khachaturyan – Salvador Dali meeting story is a hoax – expert presents truth


YEREVAN, JANUARY 18, ARMENPRESS. Armine Grigoryan, director of the Aram Khachaturyan House Museum, is disclosing the museum legend about a meeting between the Armenian composer Aram Khachaturyan and Spanish painter, sculptor Salvador Dali – such a meeting didn’t actually take place.




armenpress.am


----------



## mikeh-375

Johann Schobert?....right or wrong, I cheated with Google ...am I a bad person?


----------



## muk

Johann Schobert is right. I'll let the cheating slip this time 😊 Schobert is probably too obscure a composer for such a riddle.


----------



## MariGea

cuttime said:


> Aram Khachaturyan – Salvador Dali meeting story is a hoax – expert presents truth
> 
> 
> YEREVAN, JANUARY 18, ARMENPRESS. Armine Grigoryan, director of the Aram Khachaturyan House Museum, is disclosing the museum legend about a meeting between the Armenian composer Aram Khachaturyan and Spanish painter, sculptor Salvador Dali – such a meeting didn’t actually take place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> armenpress.am



oO. Never knew that Karen Khachaturian (his son) denied it. I heard this story personally from his student Andrei Eshpai (RIP and <3). Both Aram Il'yich and Andrei Eshpai were not the kind of guys who would tell a story like that "for fun".


----------



## mikeh-375

muk said:


> Johann Schobert is right. I'll let the cheating slip this time 😊 Schobert is probably too obscure a composer for such a riddle.



He's certainly obscure. I'll try to be kinder for the next one, clues coming soon.


----------



## mikeh-375

MariGea said:


> Little hint:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +




...good clues btw


----------



## mikeh-375

This is an easy one. So easy in fact that these visual clues are all you clever lot are going to get.....
(unless you plead on your bended knees)...


----------



## Living Fossil

mikeh-375 said:


> This is an easy one. So easy in fact that these visual clues are all you clever lot are going to get.....
> (unless you plead on your bended knees)...



Anton Webern.
Shot by soldiers erroneously when he went outside to smoke a cigarette.


----------



## mikeh-375

Living Fossil said:


> Anton Webern.
> Shot by soldiers erroneously when he went outside to smoke a cigarette.



I just knew it'd be you @Living Fossil ...  well done.
That riddle's life was as brief as a movement from his Opus 5.


----------



## Living Fossil

Ok, so it's my turn 

This time i provide the riddle as a full score of a short piece.
I came across it when i had to supervise the sound department of an exhibition.
Checking the used recordings i stumbled on one file from the 17th century, thinking that erroneously there had two files been bounced instead of just one. Checking the score i saw that there was no error; that piece of music really was polytonal. (it's just one part of a the whole composition, the rest is not polytonal...)
The composer in question was a great musician, unfortunately his oeuvre doesn't get nearly as much attention as it deserves.

Here is the score:


----------



## ptram

Heinrich von Biber, Battalia a 10. What an incredible piece!

Paolo


----------



## Living Fossil

@ptram : Congrats, exactly! 

Here's the link to that part (the link is with start-time; but it's a recording of the whole piece


----------



## ptram

Lived for years behind a wall. Composing music that was a hymn to God.

Paolo


----------



## mikeh-375

Messaen?


----------



## mikeh-375

Hildegard?


----------



## ptram

mikeh-375 said:


> Hildegard?


Yes, Hildegard! She lived a great part of her life secluded and walled in a cell.

Paolo


----------



## mikeh-375

I'll pass on the next riddle and let someone else have a go....I'm still playing mind..


----------



## mikeh-375

Living Fossil said:


> @ptram : Congrats, exactly!
> 
> Here's the link to that part (the link is with start-time; but it's a recording of the whole piece




wow that is some piece @Living Fossil. False relations on steroids.


----------



## rhizomusicosmos

Ok, if you'll forgive me for jumping in, I have one:

This composer of film and concert music also wrote a mystery novel apparently influenced by H.P. Lovecraft.


----------



## ptram

rhizomusicosmos said:


> This composer of film and concert music also wrote a mystery novel apparently influenced by H.P. Lovecraft.


Maybe Edmund Crispin?

Paolo


----------



## rhizomusicosmos

No it's not Edmund Crispin, but nice find!

This self-taught composer entered the military at a young age and while on active service became inspired by a recording of French singer Lucienne Boyer.


----------



## robcs

I don’t know if he had a connection to Boyer, but Poulenc served in WWI and if I remember correctly he was self-taught


----------



## Vonk

Lovecraft... & Boyer on a disc - Is this an American?


----------



## rhizomusicosmos

@robcs - Not Poulenc, this composer served in WWII. But he was influenced by French modernists such as Debussy and Messiaen and this is most evident in his concert music. He also used _musique concrète_ techniques in some of his film scores.

@Vonk - Not American or French, which makes the Boyer story even more interesting.

Back to literary influences:
A few concert works by this composer take their titles from James Joyce's _Finnegans Wake._


----------



## ptram

Oh, so he must be Lutoslawski.

Paolo


----------



## rhizomusicosmos

@ptram, sorry, not Lutoslawski.

This composer's experience during the war led him to initially reject the musical tradition of his homeland. But later on he began to experiment with elements drawn from it.


----------



## rhizomusicosmos

Some more clues:

This composer was helped in his career by meetings with both Stravinsky and Messiaen. He also composed around 100 film scores using various styles and instrumentation, from the sounds of pieces of wood breaking to full, Mahler-esque orchestral works.

He also composed for classical guitar and which has been described as "_music of extraordinary stillness, music that dissolves gently into silence_". His arrangements of popular tunes and Beatles songs such as "Yesterday" and "Michelle" are often performed.


----------



## Vonk

*Toru Takemitsu*. I've jumped in, not because I knew the answer, but so I could say that one of the reasons I like this thread is that it draws attention to interesting composers that I've never heard of.
I now know more than I did yesterday, which has to be a good thing. Interesting character, with a prolific output, previously shielded from me, perhaps, by my own cultural bias.


----------



## rhizomusicosmos

Yes @Vonk, it was Toru Takemitsu.

This is a good concise compilation of some his film music:








Nonesuch Records The Film Music of Toru Takemitsu







www.nonesuch.com





And this is one of my favourite albums of his concert music:








Classical Net Review - Takemitsu - Orchestral Works


The Classical Net web site offers a comprehensive collection of information and news on classical music subjects including articles and CD reviews, composers and their music, the basic repertoire, recommended recordings and a CD buying guide. The site now features over 9000 files of information...



www.classical.net


----------



## Vonk

Three composers with intertwined love lives can you identify them?


Composer one wanted to marry one of his students but she married composer two instead.


Composer two was friends with composer three who was also a student of composer one.


Composer three married the sister of composer one.


Composer one’s music shares some stylistic traits with composer two, though he championed the work of composer three. Composer three does not write anything that sounds like composer one or composer two after the age of thirty.


----------



## mikeh-375

oh good grief @Vonk. I'm just a composer....


----------



## Vonk

Yes but you've been getting them much too quickly. Besides, you're a composer and it takes one to know one.


----------



## mikeh-375

ahhh...I know the answer...but shall remain tacet...


----------



## muk

Antonin Dvorak and Josef Suk? Don't know who the third composer could be though.


----------



## Vonk

mikeh-375 said:


> ahhh...I know the answer...but shall remain tacet...


No speak up - you usually like to give multiple answers!



muk said:


> Antonin Dvorak and Josef Suk? Don't know who the third composer could be though.


Afraid not, this is a three ring puzzle and you need to change countries.


----------



## mikeh-375

Vonk said:


> No speak up - you usually like to give multiple answers!



LOL...ok...you asked for it. Here's a multiple answer..  
1-Zemlinsky,
2-Mahler
3-Schoenberg


----------



## Vonk

Bah, you got there too quickly - I had more clues, I should have let you keep quiet. Anyway I love the opening of this piece....


----------



## mikeh-375

...I did offer....  . Listening as I write to the trio, very nice, I don't think I've listened to him before. This is such a neat, informative thread however I will pass the next riddle on to someone else.....anybody.....??


----------



## Bark

mikeh-375 said:


> ...I did offer....  . Listening as I write to the trio, very nice, I don't think I've listened to him before. This is such a neat, informative thread however I will pass the next riddle on to someone else.....anybody.....??


I hadn’t listened to him either, now I’m about to settle down to his Lyric Symphony - so thanks @Vonk for that.


----------



## Bark

A world class violinist complained to this composer - “ to play your concerto I would need six fingers on my left hand.”
“Don’t worry Maestro, I can wait,” said who?


----------



## mikeh-375

..my digital lips are closed tight....


----------



## Vonk

mikeh-375 said:


> ..my digital lips are closed tight....


You just don't want to have to set us a puzzle do you......


----------



## muk

Bark said:


> A world class violinist complained to this composer - “ to play your concerto I would need six fingers on my left hand.”
> “Don’t worry Maestro, I can wait,” said who?



That would be Arnold Schönberg.

By the way, a similar story exists for Beethoven. When Ignaz Schuppanzigh complained to Beethoven about the difficulty of his last quartets, Beethoven apparently told him "Was kümmert mich seine elende Fidel, wenn der Geist zu mir spricht?" ('What do I care about your miserable fiddle, when I am inspired?').

Passing on the next riddle to somebody else. If my answer is correct, that is.


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## Bark

Correct. Supposedly a conversation between himself and Jascha Heifetz.


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## mikeh-375

Bark said:


> Correct. Supposedly a conversation between himself and Jascha Heifetz.



There is a modern day equivalent to that story concerning the cellist Steven Isserlis and Thomas Ades, who asked if Isserlis would like to premiere his fiendishly difficult 'Lieux Retrouves' for cello and piano.

Isserlis at first thought it impossible and declined, saying he couldn't and wouldn't play it. Only later deciding to take it on. When he first declined, Ades said something like, no problem, It's no one's fault and that someone else will have to give the first performance.

In the 3rd mvt, the cello goes up to the 6th...oh yes folks (not a misprint), the 6th, ledger line E in the treble clef at a dynamic lower than pppp.


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## youngpokie

To try and revive this thread, here is a twist on the original riddle format:

*can you solve the cotton wool mystery?




*


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## Vonk

A welcome return? 
Is it anything to do with writing music "that stinks to the ear?". People weren't very kind about his violin concerto......


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## youngpokie

Vonk said:


> A welcome return?
> Is it anything to do with writing music "that stinks to the ear?". People weren't very kind about his violin concerto......


This was taken in the winter of 1890s by a celebrity photographer in St Petersburg, to mass produce cards that concert goers could use for autographs. Nothing is retouched or modified in any way.


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## re-peat

There's the anecdote of him, in a state of confusion and some embarrassment, buying a whole _pound_ of cotton wool after first buying a dozen apples. The apples were only purchased, in a first shop, so that he could ask the shopkeeper where he could get some cotton wool. Which, he was informed, he could buy in the shop next door.
So, after his purchases in both shops, he ended up on the street with a bag of a dozen apples in one hand, and a pound of cotton wool, wrapped, in the other. Unfortunately, Tchaikovsky decided to use a bit of cotton wool there and then, and unwrapped the package, making the pound of cotton wool expand in all directions. Now, a pound of cotton wool takes up quite a bit of volume: the teller of this anecdote, Vasily Bertenson, speaks of 'a cloud of cotton wool'.
Tchaikovsky had to walk with his apples and his cloud of cotton wool most of the long way back to his brother's house (where he stayed at the time). Must have been some sight in St. Petersburg that day.

Apparently, Tchaikovsky used to put cotton wool in his ears, especially when the weather was bad, cold and/or windy, to prevent dental abscess to which he was susceptible.

_


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## youngpokie

re-peat said:


> Apparently, Tchaikovsky used to put cotton wool in his ears, especially when the weather was bad, cold and/or windy, to prevent dental abscess to which he was susceptible.


That's it! The only difference in the story I read was that he actually showed up at the photographer's studio with cotton wool in his ear and forgot to take out, after the first shot had been taken. There is an inscription on the back apparently that says something along the lines of the "the only copy" or something like that...

You're a great detective re-peat! I laughed when I read this and was sure it would take a while to solve.


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## re-peat

I'm going to think of a good new challenge but it might take me a few hours to come up with something, plus it's time to go to bed in this part of the world, so if anyone else wants to serve up a good riddle in the meantime: by all means.

_


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## re-peat

An actress, playing most famously opposite Warren Beaty and Jack Nicholson (in different movies), and one of the actors in “Analyze This” both have a strong connection to one of America’s most iconic record labels. We’re looking for the label and the way in which these two people are connected to it.

Tip: on one of the fist pressings that the company released, the print on the vinyl label turned out a darkish pink, due to a technical error. This was not at all the colour that the people running things had in mind for their label.

_


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## mikeh-375

Columbia perhaps?
Streisand and Tony Bennett both had releases on the label. Streisand appeared with Beaty and Nicholson and Bennet played a cameo in 'Analyse This'.


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## re-peat

Michael, you deserve some serious points and a kiss from the young lady who sits on the bonnet of the Ford Fiesta that can be won on this week’s show, for coming up with an answer that, to my suprise, almost fits everything we’re looking for, but Columbia is, alas, not the answer.

_


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## Vonk

Blue Note? But as for the connections, trying to find an actress with links to WB is like trying to count the notes of a Mozart Opera....too many!


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## re-peat

Blue Note is right.
You wanna continue searching for the connections a little while longer, or shall I divulge all?
(Perhaps I should have mentioned that those connections are non-musical.)

_


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## youngpokie

re-peat said:


> one of the actors in “Analyze This” both have a strong connection to one of America’s most iconic record labels.


I can't believe it's Blue Note!!! 

Hehe, I was following the lead of Billy Crystal, who also was in "Analyze This" and whose uncle was the founder of "Commodore Records" (Strange Fruit, etc)....


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## re-peat

You've disclosed half of what I was going to tell, Pokie:

The actress is Faye Dunaway, co-starring with Beatty in “Bonnie & Clyde” and playing opposite Nicholson in “Chinatown”. And the actor from “Analyze This” is indeed Billy Crystal.

Dunaway is connected to Blue Note via her vocal coach of many years Max Margulis (who also coached a.o. Sigourney Weaver, Stacy Keach and Judy Collins). Margulis, a journalist who at the time contributed mostly to the left-leaning press, was closely involved with Blue Note during its early years, acting as a sort of press agent for the new label.

Crystal’s father — not uncle, but father — was Jack Crystal who worked for his brother-in-law Milt Gabler at Gabler’s Commodore Music Shop on 52nd Street. Years ahead of Blue Note, Commodore had already made many jazz recordings which they sold at the Music Shop. Their biggest claim to fame is without a doubt the recording (and release) of the disturbing Billie Holiday classic “Strange Fruit”’. When Alfred Lion arrived in New York, he quickly became close friends with both Gabler and Crystal — all of them, including Max Margulis, frequently met in one of New York’s many artistic hot-spots of the day, the Cafe Society — and not only did the Commodore Music Shop become the place where the first Blue Note releases were sold, but Lion also got some vital financial support from Crystal and Gabler to start up Blue Note and steer it through its first, financially difficult years.

And here's the famous pink misprint of Blue Note. (These fetch quite a bit of money today.)







Over to either of you, Vonk or Pokie.

_


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## mikeh-375

c'mon guys.....


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## Vonk

OK. Don't think this is very difficult but must give @mikeh-375 a chance to show off.
This composer has appeared twice on the cover of a famous American news periodical. His or her work has also run foul of the censor....


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## mikeh-375

me..show off? I just like the game, it's fun and illuminating. I hope there's a hidden smiling emoji somewhere @Vonk......


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## Vonk

Definitely.


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## re-peat

*Richard Strauss* appeared twice on the cover of Time Magazine and his opera "Salomé" met with fierce opposition from the censors in nearly every city where it was staged or planned to be staged.


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## Vonk

"I mean, sure, I can read it; I read it on the airplanes without taking it seriously. If I want to find out anything, I’m not going to read Time Magazine, I’m not going to read Newsweek; I’m not going to read any of these magazines because they’ve got too much to lose by printing the truth, you know that," the musician declared.
I happened to watch this last night....fake news called out 60 years ago, an easy supplementary.

Anyway @re-peat your quizzing skills are formidable.


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## re-peat

I’ve got two challenges this time:

*(1)* Who connects Benjamin Britten to Herbie Hancock?

*(2)* Dvorsky / Thomas Edison / Rach 3 / Ladies' Home Journal / windscreen wipers … Who are we looking for here?

_To avoid confusion, (1) and (2) have nothing to do with each other._


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## mikeh-375

oooh Britten, my fave. errmmmm


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## mikeh-375

A little interlude re Britten.
When studying at the Royal College, he was assigned to John Ireland for composition lessons. Ireland was a piss artist and Britten turned up at his house for a lesson at 8.45 in the evening, the lesson having been re-scheduled from 10am. He found Ireland off his box and urinating on his carpet. In Britten's diary entry, the lesson "was not a good one." Composers eh?


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## Vonk

Windscreen wipers? I mean _come on. _So currently no idea about No 2.
Might number 1 be George Schick? He was conductor at Covent Garden in the late 30's and conductor of the 11 year old prodigy HH's performance with the Chicago Symphony in 1952.


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## re-peat

I had someone else in mind for *(1)*, Vonk, but Schick — whom I never heard of before I must confess — seems to fit the bill as well. Provided, that is, he can be linked in one way or another to Britten. (Which might well be possible, seeing has Schick was conductor at Covent Garden in the late 30’s so there’s every chance the two met.)
Still, there’s a name that links Britten and Hancock beyond any doubt. Photography enters into it.

*(2)* concerns a truly amazing figure. When I first got to know some of the biographical details, I could hardly believe what I read. 
Here's another tip: Mary Louise Curtis Bok.

_


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## re-peat

No one? Well, here are the answers:

(1) During the rehearsals for the premier production of his opera ‘The Taming Of The Screw’ (1954), Britten developed “feelings warmer than friendship” for the young lead in the production, the then 12-year old *David Hemmings*. Britten was, not for the first nor the last time, smitten. The circle around Britten looked with growing alarm at Britten’s fondness for young boys, but Hemmings and every other boy Britten ever got close to, have always maintained categorically that Britten's conduct with them was beyond reproach at all times. Hemmings had in fact only fond and positive memories of his friendship and collaboration with Britten. (There’ a book about Britten’s relationship and frequent infatuations with adolescent boys which is partly explained by the fact that Britten always felt he himself was 13 years old: “Britten’s Children”, by John Bridcut.)
But, to complete the answer: Hemmings was also the lead actor in Antonioni’s 1966 classic “Blow-up”, in which he played a fashion photographer, and for which Herbie Hancock wrote most of the music.

- - -

(2) *Jósef Hofmann *(1876-1957). It’s surprising I find, after having read up on the man’s life and many truly sensational achievements, that he seems so little known these days.

Check this: Hofmann was considered one of the greatest pianists of all time by his peers (Bolet, Richter, Busoni, Rubinstein, Rachmaninov, Levant, Godowsky, Berkowitz, ...), his debut recital was in Warsaw when he was 5 years old, he is the holder of 70 patents among them windscreen wipers & shock absorbers, both of which were actually produced and used in both planes and cars. (It has been said that the idea for the windscreen wipers came to him while watching a metronome, but that has never been confirmed.)

He built his own car when he did a concert tour across Europe, he also came up with the idea and the design of a proto-GPS and he is the inventor of a modification of the keyboard action that is still being used today by Steinway & Sons (Steinway also built a special instrument for him with smaller keys).

Rachmaninov dedicated his 3rd Piano Concerto to him and hoped he would perform it at the premiere but Hofmann declined because he felt “it wasn’t for him”. When Rachmaninov was asked about the best pianist in the world, he answered: “Well, there’s Hofmann …” And Rachmaninov apparently cut pieces from his own concert repertoire after hearing them performed by Hofmann.

Hofmann is also the first pianist ever to record his own music (with the help of Thomas Edison) and possibly the first musician ever to be recorded. (Hofmann's first recording, when he was only 12, dates from 1888, Von Bülow was also recorded sometime during that year, but it is not known who came first.) The great Anton Rubinstein said of Hofmann: “I don’t believe in prodigies as a rule, but I believe in him.” Rubinstein, by the way, only ever accepted one private pupil: Hofmann.

And there’s more: Hofmann perfected the pianola, he designed electric clocks, spiral-shaped water heaters and … a motorboat. He also made sketches of a house that revolved in sync with the sun. And he’s also credited with the introduction of regulating the elevation of the piano stool so that it best matches a performer’s height. He co-founded and co-lead the Curtis Institute Of Music (Philadephia) for several years. And he had a lifelong interest in recording techniques and experimented with various recording devices at his home where he had his modified Steinway fitted with various microphones and speakers. (Oddly enough, he was averse to being recorded ‘professionally’ in a recording studio, claiming to be dissatisfied with the audio results.)

He also invested quite a bit of time answering questions from readers in the Ladies’ Home Journal. These writings were later bundled in a book.

And we haven’t quite finished yet: during his concerts, Hofmann used to perform works by an unknown composer Michel Dvorsky. Until it became known that Dvorsky didn’t exist and that Hofmann had written the music himself. Hofmann said that he had used the pseudonym because “he wished to obtain the unbiased opinion of the public on his music”. By the end of his life, he had published more than a hundred works, many of them under the name Michel Dvorsky. And we’re not just talking solo piano pieces here, but a.o. two piano concertos, ballet music and various pieces for full orchestra.

_


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## mikeh-375

Hoffman, wow, what a great great story, I had no idea. I went onto YT and found this glittering performance by him of one of his own works. I note there's a film on him too which I've bookmarked.

I'm glad you put in the proviso about Britten and his adolescents. He did propose a bedroom encounter to Tippet one time when he was staying with him. He probably got on well with Auden partly because of a shared feeling of lost youth.


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## Vonk

"Blow Up" was indeed a classic of my youth - one of those films that captured the zeitgeist of the 60's (which I aspired to but never seemed to manage to find). I didn't know Herbie Hancock did the music - I shall have to watch again with renewed ears. I was in "Lets make an Opera" by Britten when a boy, (Chimney sweeps and hooting owls I recall) and bought HH records when a teenager, so I guess you could say another link would be me!
Dvorsky was an unkind clue and sent me down several rabbit holes across eastern Europe. Likewise windscreen wipers have been subject to wikipedia cultural bias by some obscure American woman, which I thought must be the link to the Ladies Home Journal. Annoyingly I did see his name at the Curtis Institute, but missed the linkage.
These things are much easier when you know the answer.


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