# Fatter, Warmer more Analog Sound



## José Herring (Sep 16, 2007)

What are some ways that people can do this most effectively for sample based production work?

Thanks,

Jose


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## lux (Sep 16, 2007)

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## lux (Sep 16, 2007)

Jose, I think it mostly depends on the kind of music. I really cant say for orchestral music. For hybrid/traleiresque music most of times I've heard heavy distorting results mix-wise but it looks the way things do work.

For pop/electronica/rock and such its longer debated. A good engineer friend of mine just put everything into valve stuff and back to protools.

There are some good colorizer/warmifiers out there, like PSP vintage warmer, some good stuff by Voxengo, Nomad factory, among others. There's really a huge choice of plugins on the matter.

I'm pretty convinced that all of them have pratically none of "analog sounding" but often they reach to add some good colours to flat digital mixes.

For what it counts, I'm personally a good fan of T-Racks.

Luca


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## Waywyn (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey Jose, you might try this oner: http://www.tritonedigital.com/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=32 (http://www.tritonedigital.com/product_i ... ucts_id=32)

... considered what it does it is really really cheap 
basically it works like an impulse response reverb, but instead of reverb signals it uses signals of analogue machines. There should be a trial version.


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## Scott Cairns (Sep 16, 2007)

Alex, Tritone looks really cool. 

Jose, I think Ozone has some sort of harmonic distortion you can add, not quite the same thing, but it is supposed to simulate analog circuits overloading or something.


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## Waywyn (Sep 16, 2007)

Niah @ Sun Sep 16 said:


> Jose,
> 
> That's one of the things that I lack the most working in a digital environment.
> 
> ...



Without sounding harsh, but you just considered some "low budget plugins". If you would try the SSL 4000 compressor, the Vintage stuff or the new API package of Waves, you'd completely change your mind about digital sound. I know the Waves stuff is not really low in price, but well worth it's money.
I know studio guys who tried the plugs and said that it really sounds like the console or the hardware itself, but with the advantage of NOT having the hardware problems (hum etc. ... but even that you can turn on )

.. but there is a trial of Colortone available. I would grab it and test it out. Considered what you can load into it, it's a really cool piece of software.


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## lux (Sep 16, 2007)

oh, btw, this is a very cheap suggestion (so dont blame me if doesnt work). Did u ever try to use the free camelcrusher with a light setting to warmify things? I would give it a try


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## bluejay (Sep 16, 2007)

Jose, Sonnox Inflator is another thing you might want to try. It's especially good for hybrid mixes but it can still work well with traditional orchestral mixes.


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## Niah (Sep 16, 2007)

Waywyn @ Sun Sep 16 said:


> Niah @ Sun Sep 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Jose,
> ...



Alex,

You are quite right about the quality of those plugs, with the exception of ozone and trash which I think are good and I have been happy with some of the experiments I did with them.
Nevertheless I will certainly look into the waves package, thanks !


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## Waywyn (Sep 16, 2007)

Just a little thing because I think some things are missunderstood.

The inflator is not an analog warmifier or something. It is the same as the Ozone harmonic exciter is doing. Inflator is just artificially raising frequencies and strenghten artifacts of the sound to make it more crisp, shiny and/or powerful ... but analog simuators add warmth to a track and make it sound ... well analogue.

Correct me if I am wrong about this, please!

Also a lot of people really think that the Inflator is also a limiter. This is not true. The best way to use Inflator (for mastering) is to place it BEHIND the Limiter and then it shows its real power.


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## bluejay (Sep 16, 2007)

Wawyn, I agree with you about using the Inflator behind the limiter.

The Inflator does raise harmonics however I wouldn't say it makes the sound more crisp. It actually introduces saturation and distortion into the mix from a tiny amount to not very subtle levels.

In this way, I'd say it could be used to simulate some of the effect of slamming a hot mix to tape or an analog board.


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## Synesthesia (Sep 16, 2007)

Jose,

I use McDSP Analog Channel plugs:
http://www.mcdsp.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=40&Itemid=50

and also DUY DaD Tape and DaD Valve which are really good,

http://www.duy.net/duystore/product.asp?P_ID=121&numCurrencyID=3

and I also use as mentioned already the Waves packages - although the SSL will give you an SSL sound - incredibly close to the original - but still that steely bright piercing SSL cut - not probably what you are after.

I use dual mono instances of McDSP AC1 on the mix buss followed by Duy Tape, and then an Eq shelf of a few db at 8k+ to put some top back on. 

This gives a really nice fat bottom, but you need to mix through the plugs - if you put them on at the end, its a big disaster and will sound hideous - you need to make all your mix and eq decisions through the plugs. They will give you a nice deep fatness, and some nice gently 2nd order harmonic distortion.

They aren't that cheap, but then neither is good analog outboard!

Cheers

Paul


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## Mark Belbin (Sep 16, 2007)

While not nessecarily sounding "fatter", sparing application of Izotope Vinyl can have it's uses.

-Belbin


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## José Herring (Sep 16, 2007)

Thanks all.

Definitely leaning towards an SSL channel strip +Inflator. Getting demos. Will let you know.

The others sound promising but I'm going to stick to what I consider more "industry standard" type stuff.


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## StrangeCat (Sep 16, 2007)

well I could say just "UAD" but I think I'll say "Pultec Pro" instead^_-

The we can got from some sort of saturation too. So you could use say Color Tone or AudioAcoustics Nebula. 
A lot of ppl use a summing buss but really I don't that is necessary. 

I honestly think just putting the Pultec Pro on a buss with out even doing anything gives the sound a nice warm rounded analog sound.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 16, 2007)

I'm always wary when someone says fat, warm, analog. Plug-ins are great, but they're not necessarily the answer to thin and harsh mixes.

Just an observation from having heard readers' tapes when I was at Recording.


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## José Herring (Sep 16, 2007)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Sep 16 said:


> I'm always wary when someone says fat, warm, analog. Plug-ins are great, but they're not necessarily the answer to thin and harsh mixes.
> 
> Just an observation from having heard readers' tapes when I was at Recording.



ARE YOU CALLING MY MIXES THIN AND HARSH?

j/k

I'm not really looking at it as mix help. I'm more looking to add to the mix as a mix element rather than to cure a bad mix.


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## DKeenum (Sep 16, 2007)

Voxengo makes a plug-in named "warmifier." There is a demo.


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## StrangeCat (Sep 16, 2007)

Before I go dive back into the Ether I want to add something here:

There are two companies that have analog sound to there Libs already. The first is The Great "Spectrasonics". You could do a whole anything with "Atmosphere", "Trilogy", and "Stylus RMX". Infact Atmosphere and Trilogy's sounds are very analog sounding already.

The other company is "Sonic Couture". "Abstrakt" even comes with scripts to get out of phase oscillators(old oscillators that tend to float) and even tape WOW fx. All there sounds sound very analog, warm and rounded.

For Orchestra stuff it's not enough really to have great ambiance you want to add some of the recorded room sound, like a scoring noice to add that realism that wasn't there before.

But yea UAD plugs really make things sound Analog for using the computer and vsts.
To be quite honest with you if you have a mac screw UAD and get "Soundtoys fx"! there plugs are so damn amazing! Echo Boy , FilterFreak those will make any silly thin synth come to life with fatness and warmth!^_-

There VST's aren't coming out till spring 2008!!!!!

It's really great to read "Paul White" from 'Sound on Sound" mix rescues and see what he does to fix the sound and add something to it. He will alwasy talk about how to get a more warm or fat sound on this particular track for this instrument.

Many times he uses Roland Space Echo, Sound toys, and òñk   a°Çñk   a°Èñk   a°Éñk   a°Êñk   a°Ëñk


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## aeneas (Sep 16, 2007)

StrangeCat @ Sun 16 Sep said:


> yea works on Intel Macs.
> http://www.sonnoxplugins.com/pub/plugins/support/demos-pc.htm (http://www.sonnoxplugins.com/pub/plugin ... mos-pc.htm)


thx


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## Scott Cairns (Sep 17, 2007)

Jose, Hans Zimmer uses the Sony Inflator on almost everything, but particularly on percussion. It contributes a lot to that fat drum sound he gets.

Arent the Sound Toys TDM only? Some knowledgeable bloke told me that. (Nick) 8)


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## aeneas (Sep 17, 2007)

There are AU, RTAS and Audio Suite versions for each of them except for Speed, which I think there is no AU version for...

http://www.soundtoys.com/products/


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 17, 2007)

Sound Toys' Pitchblender and Timeblender are TDM only, Scott, but they do have a lot of other stuff that's great. It's just those two happen to be amazing, and I used to reach for them whenever I wanted an effect. And also Purepitch - a great pitch shifter for introducing "feedback" on static guitar parts. But Fiterfreak, Phase Mistress, I think they have a Crystallizer plug-in - those are all available in some native formats. (I'm not sure about PC formats, though.)

Aeneas, Speed is an AudioSuite program for Pro Tools - file-based. It can't work in real time.


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## José Herring (Sep 17, 2007)

Scott Cairns @ Mon Sep 17 said:


> Jose, Hans Zimmer uses the Sony Inflator on almost everything, but particularly on percussion. It contributes a lot to that fat drum sound he gets.



Yes, I'd heard that he does, but for some reason it didn't register as essential for me. I was mistaken.

Creatively speaking I feel that Inflator is a revolutionary tool. It does much of what we want to do when we reach for the expander, but for some reason it just works a lot better than I've ever been able to get from an expander. It works at every dynamic level and preserves the dynamics of a mix.

Waywyn is right though. It seems to work well after a tool like a compressor or limiter but doesn't really replace those tools.

I aslo heard the Zimmer/Meyerson are using Izotope Trash as an EQing device. Can't imagine what they're doing though. I thought that Trash was more of a distortion tool :?


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## aeneas (Sep 17, 2007)

I am not sure that Zimmer's mixes get into movies and on soundtrack CDs...


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## José Herring (Sep 17, 2007)

aeneas @ Mon Sep 17 said:


> I am not sure that Zimmer's mixes get into movies and on soundtrack CDs...



:? 


Last I heard he was doing ok. Ya know..makin' a livin'. Taking it day by day. Hoping for a better future.

I'm sure his time will come. He'll make it in the biz someday.

~o)


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## DKeenum (Sep 17, 2007)

aeneas @ Mon Sep 17 said:


> I am not sure that Zimmer's mixes get into movies and on soundtrack CDs...



I'm guess guessing here, but I think he was saying that Hans Zimmer doesn't mix his own stuff. Other people do it. That said, he could add effects to the stems - wouldn't he deliver stems rather than a full mix or seperate tracks?


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## bluejay (Sep 17, 2007)

Right but Alan Meyerson does mix for Hans Zimmer and he mentions this in an interview.


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## José Herring (Sep 17, 2007)

I think it would be fairer to say that Alan Meyerson improves upon the mixes that Zimmer gives him.

I've run across a lot of composers who have a confusion on this. For a composer like Zimmer "mixing" is as much of the creative processes as choosing notes and programming midi parts.

So for instance I read an article where Alan was saying that he was trying to duplicate a sound that Zimmer was getting in his mock up. He wasn't getting it so he went up to Zimmer's studio and looked at his setup. He saw that Zimmer had placed Inflator across his master bus. Alan then went and did the same then got the sound that Zimmer was after. Alan then went on to say that instead of placing it across the master bus he decided to use Inflator on the individual tracks for more control.

So in this example he was trying to deliver the same sound that Zimmer got in his mockup but then found a way to improve upon the idea.

It's a shift in thinking. The mix is part of the creative processes rather than something you give over to somebody else to "work their magic" on your music.

Zimmer once stated that if a composer didn't know how to engineer that he/she would always be at the creative mercy of the mixing engineer who may or may not share your creative vision.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 17, 2007)

In other words, you're after that phat punchy big bass analog warmth ear candy vibe shizzle?


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## StrangeCat (Sep 18, 2007)

Sound Toys those guys said they woudl have VST by 1st quarter of 2008 let's hope!

Man I actually thought that Inflator was designed by the RIAA LOL! 

Mixing can really be a pain in the ass and these are just tools to get the sound we want. 

I see Inflator is also vst.


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## david robinson (Sep 18, 2007)

hi guys, 
been ilok demoing for a while now.

my preferences for "warmth":

URS channel strip pro.

reverb: sonnox

transient tweeking: sonnox TD and inflator.
the TD will add edge to percussion without problem - almost bas relief.
the Inflator, i tried on some old mixes - working better on some than others.
tends to densify the mix and pushes it forward into your lap.
i can see how it will be good for that "big" percussion vibe.

Chandler comp/lim - vintage response and sound.
touchy controls, but great for levelling and added sustain.

Vintage Amp Room - insane, excellent marshall, fender and vox emulations.
i've owned each of these amps at one time, and the is the closest to the real thing, and i've tried all the others.
no add on pedals. fx, etc. just great responsive tone.

DR9.

now back to that glass of vintage red, my sexy 19yr old girlfriend and the log fire. :wink: 
----now that's real warmth for you! :roll:


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## José Herring (Sep 19, 2007)

I just tried the Warmifier last night and I agree. It's not really that good. Much of his other stuff is very good though.

So far Izotop Ozone 3 and Inflator seem to do rather well at this depending on the music. Izotope works for the more subtle stuff and Inflator+Izotope for the harder hitting big things.

I'd love to try URS but it looks pretty complicated and I haven't found a demo to try yet.

best,

Jose


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## Synesthesia (Sep 19, 2007)

Daryl @ Wed Sep 19 said:


> .. and get to use Melodyne and Altiverb on more than one PC.
> 
> D



Daryl - 

I thought to use AV on more than one PC you have to buy a second license? I have asked this at their forum (where people are buying two copies of the whole software) and got no official answer, just everyone saying you have to shell out all over again...

I'd love to know if thats not the case as I could do with having an extra AV on a second PC..

Cheers!

Paul


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## Jack Weaver (Sep 19, 2007)

Rob,

When you go Logic you won't be able to use Voxengo. Small price to pay though. 
I'm thinking that L8, an 8-core and VSL's new VE will be an incredible combo. 


Jose,

Just so I'm not totally OT, if you had a version of Pro Tools you could use the Massey Tape Saturation module. But if memory serves me you don't have PT. That's my first 'go to' for warmification - except for external tube gear.


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## José Herring (Sep 19, 2007)

_except for external tube gear._

What tube gear would you use. I'm starting to realize that this may be my only real option for the sound I'm after.

I just need a fullness. Not really looking for the booty shakin' thang. Just that old fullness and warmth from the old tube and record days captured digitally.

I'll post a clip of what I'm talking about in a moment just below.


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## Daryl (Sep 19, 2007)

Synesthesia @ Wed Sep 19 said:


> Daryl @ Wed Sep 19 said:
> 
> 
> > .. and get to use Melodyne and Altiverb on more than one PC.
> ...


Yes you do, but at least with the ugly, huge, clunky iCrap you can swap from machine to machine.

D


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## José Herring (Sep 19, 2007)

Here's what I'm talking about: Of course some of this comes from real strings but also there's a real fattening to the sound in the recording on all instruments.

http://www.jherringmusic.com/user/JNH.wav

Jose


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## Jack Weaver (Sep 19, 2007)

Jose,

In the last year I've sold all my tube stuff except for a Manley Vari-Mu. I have it plugged into a bus going out and back into my Digi 192 interface. I use it on individual tracks (audio and virtual instruments) and busses.

I found out you could not use hardware for a plugin on the main outs (through a plugin called 'i/o') in Logic. So using hardware on the main mix requires me to route the main mix back through a bus then onto the Vari-Mu. So I seldom end up using its on a whole mix. I did use it recently on a mix I did for this forum of the old bop tune, Joy Spring. 

Hopefully, this has changed in L8. But I have no varification of that.

Having said all that, I think lots of different tube gear could give you what you want. But I think warmification doesn't happen by itself. By that I mean it's a combination of a lot of things - pulling back the high end here and there, limiting dynamic range, judicious use of distortion and the realization of a realistic ambient field. It's almost like what we look for in a warm sound is an 'antiquing' of the sound. Hey, a little noise wouldn't hurt either. 

I draw the line at turntable rumble.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 19, 2007)

I like my Millennia Media channel strips a whole lot - and I too sold all my other outboard stuff to buy them. They have Telefunken flat plate tubes in them for color - new old stock that Millennia got me. The tubes you use make a huge difference to the sound, just as with guitar amps.

But one thing to bear in mind is that the warm fuzzy sound isn't what good tubes do. Good tubes are sweet and open; they add a character to the sound, but they don't make it all muffled and distorted.


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## JohnnyMarks (Sep 19, 2007)

I recall a quote of Tomlinson saying that John Williams was always asking for "more vu-vu" on the Star Wars sessions, as in the VU meter on the tape machine.

I've been eyeing the Portico 5042.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 19, 2007)

Why didn't they just turn up the meter then?


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## aeneas (Sep 19, 2007)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed 19 Sep said:


> Why didn't they just turn up the meter then?


Maybe it was interfering with Yoda's tiny little voice? (o) 

Composers' Choir: "Crank it up, crank it up!" 8) 

Directors' Choir: "Turn that bloody music down!!" :evil: 

Audience's Choir: "... uhm, what music?!?..." :| 

:mrgreen:


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## Christian Marcussen (Sep 19, 2007)

Any good alternatives to Inflator?


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## david robinson (Sep 20, 2007)

christian,
inflator isn't THAT good.
it's feels like an exciter, 3D thingy and i find the result annoying on some material, as it feels like someone elses mix i'm listening to.
Paul Frindle, the designer, doesn't recommend coupling it with a comp/lim either.
percussion, yes, but sonnox's Transient Designer does an equally good job at "bas reliefing" stuff.

i have a lot of tube gear.
the thing closest to this as a plug in, is URS CHANNEL STRIP PRO. 8) 

and i don't apologise for yelling, as i want you to notice this and jose as well.

some of the patches in this URS CSP emulate old tube comp/lims etc which i've used for real,
and it definitely does the job better than everything else i've tried so far.(ilok demo, and WORTH THE HASSLE).

have yet to demo the waves API, SSL, and neve plugins, again, neve and SSL hardware i use often. o-[][]-o 

note: iloks are a pain in the butt. :x 

also note: if you don't have reasonably large speakers with plenty of headroom, most of the benefit in warmth these units give, you will not hear properly.
and i'm including the hardware in that statement as well.

best, 
DR9.


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## JohnnyMarks (Sep 20, 2007)

david robinson @ Thu Sep 20 said:


> Paul Frindle, the designer, doesn't recommend coupling it with a comp/lim either.


Odd, because there is a mystery slider in the Sonnox Limiter that is awfully Inflator-like...


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## david robinson (Sep 20, 2007)

JohnnyMarks @ Thu Sep 20 said:


> david robinson @ Thu Sep 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Paul Frindle, the designer, doesn't recommend coupling it with a comp/lim either.
> ...



hi JM,

only quoting PF.
the thread is on GearsSluts, so it must be true. :roll: 

DR9 :wink:


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## José Herring (Sep 20, 2007)

Inflator rocks. It gives a fat contemporary sound, but it's not vintage in any way. It's not warm at all. It does bring things up close so it can't really be used for subtle effects like the manual claims. It's used for an in your face contemporary sound.

I'll check out URS today.

Different tools for different purposes.

best,

Jose


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## JohnnyMarks (Sep 20, 2007)

david robinson @ Thu Sep 20 said:


> JohnnyMarks @ Thu Sep 20 said:
> 
> 
> > david robinson @ Thu Sep 20 said:
> ...


Do appreciate your passing it along as I make a habit of attempting to understand what Mr. Frindle has to say.


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## JohnnyMarks (Sep 20, 2007)

josejherring @ Thu Sep 20 said:


> I'll check out URS today.


FYI, there was an advertiser on GS ("High-something or other...") selling CSP for under $500.


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## José Herring (Sep 20, 2007)

aeneas @ Mon Sep 17 said:


> josejherring @ Mon 17 Sep said:
> 
> 
> > It's a shift in thinking. The mix is part of the creative processes rather than something you give over to somebody else to "work their magic" on your music.
> ...



I bumped into the article where Alan Meyerson is talking about his working relationship with Zimmer. This is the future. For us composers that are shy about mixing we need to get over that. Mixing is a part of the contemporary creative processes for film and tv sound. Most of the music that gets raved about on this forum is more of an achievement in using mixing and plugin tools rather than clever note development by the composer:

_(Interviewer)But for mixing, you're a heavy plug-in user.

(Meyerson) I like processing things, especially because the scores I tend to work on, which I guess the industry calls “hybrid,” have a lot of synths and synth percussion: elements that live in the composer's room before the music comes to me. There's a lot of processing involved and you need to have repeatability. If you're doing a big movie with 40 cues, to have to create all those sounds on the fly and then to have to change stuff from cue to cue is really a hassle. It's a lot easier to do it in the box than to try and do it on a console.

With Hans, we don't print anything anymore, plug-in — wise. Instead, when he's writing, he'll EQ and add reverb on the return. I have all the plug-ins that he has in his room duplicated in the mix room. When I open up a session, at least plug-in — wise, I start from his point of view, which is a tremendous advantage. If I had to unravel a 150-track Hans Zimmer pre-record from scratch, I would never finish. Instead, I start from where he left off and see what I can do to make it better.

Plug-ins, of course, have gotten worlds better in the last couple of years. And there's the whole “apparent” loudness trend that's going on with compression that's more frequency-based. It's not as obvious as over-compression; it's more subtle. The Sony Inflator, Crane Song's Phoenix and Renaissance have a vocal compressor that's literally like an L1: You just pull one knob and it gets louder, but in a good way. It's actually pretty cool.

I especially like the Inflator. On Last Samauri, there was a cue where I just couldn't get the mix right. When I went into Hans' writing room and listened, I realized he had an Inflator across his stereo bus. *When I took the Inflator out, it was dead**. I couldn't duplicate exactly what he did because I didn't have a stereo bus, but I've started using Inflators across individual tracks. That way, I can match Hans' sound, with the ability to be a little pickier about how much processing to use.

All of these things work great in moderation and all of the subtleties add up. It amazes me how little you can change things and still make a huge difference. That's something I find with my Massive Passives that I put across the orchestra bus and across percussion just a little bit. If you listen before and after, it makes this tremendous difference. Besides the EQ itself, I think it's that little bit of the saturation that happens in the tubes._

*Speaks volumes.


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## Scott Cairns (Sep 20, 2007)

> That's something I find with my Massive Passives..



Now there's a serious unit.  That would bring a lot of sonic character to the mix too Jose. Only thing, you'd want to be sending out and back through some very decent converters. (unless it has some sort of digital hookup)

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MassivePassive/


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## aeneas (Sep 20, 2007)

josejherring @ Thu 20 Sep said:


> This is the future. For us composers that are shy about mixing we need to get over that. Mixing is a part of the contemporary creative processes for film and tv sound. Most of the music that gets raved about on this forum is more of an achievement in using mixing and plugin tools rather than clever note development by the composer


I can understand the quest for better sound, which I agree with, and I even subscribe to. But I honestly think that this thread exaggerates a bit the importance of mixing for a film composer's career (a career in which I am not advanced at all, I don't want to sound patronizing). I personally don't believe that what you describe is the future, but what do I know about the future? Wait - I know something: "anything" is possible in the future.  I also don't believe in the effectiveness of the "one-stop-shop" "one-man-does-it-all" approach. From what I have seen, composers are not supposed to mix. Mixing, in film, is a an unifying process - blending in a coherent whole: dialogs, sfx, and music. What does a composer know of the first two? My point was that a composer is not qualified to do the sound editor's job. A different pair of ears is always beneficial, especially a professional pair. :wink: 

IMHO, appropriate music, even when mixed in a "minimalistic/basic" way, is more convincing for a film maker than fantastically mixed but inappropriate music. A composer's job is to write the appropriate music (which implies a lot already: to make it match the moving pictures, to orchestrate, perform, record, basic audio-mix). So I personally chose to focus on those multiple musical tasks, and then let the sound editor do his or her job: blending dialogs with sfx with music. Making good mixes only makes a good mixer, not a good film composer. I don't want to be a good sound mixer, it takes too much time, effort and expensive gear. >8o 

Also, in cinema, music is less important than most composers tend to think. Music comes last, actually, in all the meanings of it. It might be unfortunate, but that seems to be the film makers' pov - the only one that counts. As composers, we can fight that pov with good/appropriate music, and not with good mixes. My 2 cents.


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## José Herring (Sep 20, 2007)

Scott Cairns @ Thu Sep 20 said:


> > That's something I find with my Massive Passives..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Maybe when I score "The Last Samurai II: Resurrection", but for now that price is a wee bit more than I want to spend. ~o) 

Jose


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## José Herring (Sep 24, 2007)

synthetic @ Mon Sep 24 said:


> What about hiring someone to mix it for you? Tell them you want "warmer" and they'll know what to do. You live in Los Angeles, I'll bet you've run into a few mixers with their own rigs at home.



I guess you missed the Alan Meyerson interview on the preceding page.

Things have changed. It's no longer good enough to hire a mixer and say make it sound good. Mixing is part of the overall creative processes. You can't hand somebody 50 to 100 tracks of unmixed, orchestral samples, loops, synth pads and leads and expect that he's going to make it sound good in an hour. I actually spoke to a mixer who mixed with a composer who did that, this mixer is tops in records and he said that he'll never mix for this guy again. He said it was all a mess and he just ran out of time.

So I mix as I go, but in the future I'm sure I'll have a guy in my studio that can do the final mix but until then it's all me baby.

Jose


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## david robinson (Sep 25, 2007)

josejherring @ Mon Sep 24 said:


> Just to sum it up a bit.
> 
> URS PRO is the one that's blowing me away. The presets work just right without any fiddling around. Of course you can tweak those virtual knobs to your hearts content but out of the box it sounds great.
> 
> ...



Hi jose.
yes URS PRO is the biz, atm.
just watch it though, as some of the fatter sound presets - ones modelled on the fairchild comp/lim can make a mix sound muddy, very quickly.
but the sonics, overall, are just fantastic.

as to the sonnox plugs?

well, a mixed bag (pardon the pun)

i like the reverb and the mastering limiter. very neutral.
the eq is also good.

the others? well, as a bundle, i'll take 'em.
the inflator is like an exciter - but broadband. it gives everything a presence - whether it's needed or not. i don't think it works that well on traditional/orchestral mixes. it sounds very "false" here.
it reminds me sonically, of the bas relief graphic effect in photoshop.
sorry to go on, but you see, i'm one of those ppl who actually "see" sound as graphics. i liken a lot of "sound quality" to graphics.

for the rest, the so called "magical" aspects of music, that transend the gear, i'd refer you to either Mr Stravinsky or Mr Morricone conducting their own works
(plenty of eg's on YouTube).
DR9. 8)


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## RickD (Oct 15, 2007)

You've got my attention, I'm interested in the URS channel strip pro. I'm using an Apple Powermac G5 dual 2 Ghz running Panther, Digital Performer version 4.6. 

I see they have the plug-in for a "Native System." What is that? What would I have to do to get this to work in OSX which uses AU or MAS?

Thanks!


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## synthetic (Oct 15, 2007)

I was surprised to see that the latest Waves plugs (SSL, API and Neve) are preferred to the URS stuff these days. I haven't heard any plug-in EQs that make me stand up and say "Wow" yet. I would spend the money if I head a $500(+) improvement over the Logic EQs, but I don't hear it yet. 

At the AES show, I got a demo of the Empirical Labs Fatso. Wow, this thing sounds amazing. They have a "warmth" control that took the edge of digital-sounding high frequencies and sounded gorgeous. There's also a low frequency control that overloads a transformer to get nice harmonics happening in the bass, and a great-sounding buss compressor as well. They ran a '90s Donald Fagen CD through it and it sounded like vintage Steely Dan. This would be the thing to get to make sampled strings sound less digital. The next time I have an extra $2k it's on my short list.


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## RickD (Oct 15, 2007)

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## Frederick Russ (Oct 15, 2007)

If it hasn't been mentioned already, please do check out Focusrite Liquid Mix. I have one and love it. They've nailed so many of the hardware rack staples, including Empirical Labs EL8, SSL4000, Urei, API, Millennia, Neve, Avalon, Summit Audio, Tube Tech, Chandler Limited, Chiswick Reach, Pultec, Universal Audio 1176 and LA2A, etc. Plenty of warmth, low latency, 32 channels (16 stereo) and works great.


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## re-peat (Oct 16, 2007)

The LiquidMix is indeed a remarkable unit. Few people seem to trust it though (let alone own one) because it's so affordable - something which the snobs don't like - and also because Focusrite's first hybrid, their LiquidChannel, wasn't exactly received to universal acclaim either.
But like Frederick says, the LiquidMix packs a lot of power (which leaves all the more for your DAW, so that it can concentrate on other things), it offers a very wide range of mock-vintage processing possibilities and it really works great.

_


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## re-peat (Oct 16, 2007)

Jack,

None whatsoever, cross-my-heart-and-hope-to-die. You have to know that I'm a little nonchalant in these matters though (if it sounds good, it's fine with me, no matter if things are not entirely sample accurate), so I've never ever considered latency, or lack of plug-in delay compensation or whatever "a problem".


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## Jack Weaver (Oct 16, 2007)

Hey, I noticed you're one post ahead of me so I have to catch up.

Yeah, I think it's going to be OK. When you're creating music with virtual instruments sample accuracy kinda get lost in the mix. 

If it ends up sounding good maybe I can sell my last piece of tube gear (a VariMu) to some one on GearSlutz who'll go without lunch for a year to pay for it. 

.


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## Frederick Russ (Oct 17, 2007)

No noticeable latency here Jack. Works as stated and if you have a firewire bus with nothing on it and looking for something to do, perfect. The plugins load in Logic fine and you can either tweak the settings with your mouse or use the hardware device to do so. And it sounds incredible. If you've ever played around with some of the high end gear it emulates, you'll be floored with how closely they nailed the sounds including all of the quirks inherent in the hardware devices. 

It would be a bargain at five times the price.

ps: Jack, there is also a Manley Stereo Variable Mu in there (as well as SLAM (both FET and ELOP (optical) limiter setting).


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## re-peat (Oct 17, 2007)

Jack Weaver @ Wed Oct 17 said:


> Hey, I noticed you're one post ahead of me so I have to catch up.


Good heavens, Jack!! I didn't notice, honestly. Sorry about that. I'll slow down a bit.


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## RickD (Oct 17, 2007)

Frederick Russ @ Mon Oct 15 said:


> If it hasn't been mentioned already, please do check out Focusrite Liquid Mix. I have one and love it. They've nailed so many of the hardware rack staples, including Empirical Labs EL8, SSL4000, Urei, API, Millennia, Neve, Avalon, Summit Audio, Tube Tech, Chandler Limited, Chiswick Reach, Pultec, Universal Audio 1176 and LA2A, etc. Plenty of warmth, low latency, 32 channels (16 stereo) and works great.



Thanks Russ, that's great news! I'll check it out.


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## germancomponist (Oct 26, 2007)

Peter Roos @ Thu Oct 25 said:


> I just purchased Sonnox Inflator and I really dig it. Better results than with L2 or Voxengo Elephant. I just remastered the track Riding Out At Dawn (on http://www.peterroos.com/music.html (www.peterroos.com/music.html)) and it now has even more ooomphffff
> 
> I find it a bit tricky to find good settings, but I'll definitely keep using it.



*What a great sound, Peter!*

Am I right, that there is no Inflator version for PC as a VST plugin? 

Gunther


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## Niah (Oct 26, 2007)

germancomponist @ Fri Oct 26 said:


> Peter Roos @ Thu Oct 25 said:
> 
> 
> > I just purchased Sonnox Inflator and I really dig it. Better results than with L2 or Voxengo Elephant. I just remastered the track Riding Out At Dawn (on http://www.peterroos.com/music.html (www.peterroos.com/music.html)) and it now has even more ooomphffff
> ...



Now there is !


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## Waywyn (Oct 26, 2007)

... just buy an iLok and you are ready to go!


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## germancomponist (Oct 26, 2007)

Waywyn @ Fri Oct 26 said:


> ... just buy an iLok and you are ready to go!



Oh, I have an iLok...., so I will look if there is a demoversion.... .

Thanks!


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Oct 26, 2007)

I don't have an iLok yet, so I bought the inflator, created an iLok account, and while I wait for my iLok to arrive, I just use a cracked version... So, these protection tricks just don't work! Anyway, I paid for it, so I feel not guilty. When the iLok arrives, I'll reinstall it officially.

(I found out the need for an iLok after buying Inflator, so I was a bit pissed off). Stupid thing costs 50 euro here in Holland.

Inflator is not expensive, so it's a must have tool, IMO.


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## JacquesMathias (Nov 7, 2007)

Hi Jose and guys!

I didn't read all the posts, so i apologize if i am saying the same.

I am currently preparing new demos for BFD2 as well. And got all the PSP plugins to mix and master. I have to say i am very happy with their plugins. The new Master Compressor is very, very good. No matter how much you push, it still sounds natural. And, by the way i love their EQ, Master Q and Neon. The mix pack has a "Mix Saturator" that adds little distortion to make it warm. And Vintage Warmer2 provides you happy moments  

Jacques.


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## dlbest (Dec 14, 2007)

Hi folks - 

So glad to have found this thread - I've been searching for info on this topic - even posted a few queries on gearslutz, but never got a good discussion going - not enough folks over there doing orchestral mockups, I guess. I'm definitely someone who likes to tinker with my own mixes - although nothing beats working with a great engineer. I do always pre-mix my synth stuff - if you take the time to balance everything the way you like, no one is going to be able to improve your pre-mixes in the amount of time you usually have to mix a score - I'd definitely recommend a hands-on approach - or bringing someone in early on to help, before the mixing crunch.

I'm also interested in investigating a warmer sounding stereo buss signal chain - although no one has mentioned what to do when you're mixing to stems - I definitely can't afford 4 (or more) great stereo comps! When I generate stereo mixes, I mix out-of-the box through a folcrom summing box (don't know if that issue has been discussed in this forum - forgive my ignorance - haven't had the chance to do a full perusal of the site!), and I've been experimenting with different processors on my 2-buss, asking advice from engineers etc.

So far I've had the best result with the Manley Vari-Mu, but I'm not yet ready to commit. I'm intrigued by the Liquid Mix - definitely going to check into that one, particularly for use on stems - but it wouldn't be part of my 2-buss signal chain since it's a virtual device. Anyone have any experience with this sort of setup? Any other favorite outboard comps/eq's I should look into? Folks on gearslutz seem to like the api2500, the drawmer 1968 and the Neve Portico comp - any thoughts?

In addition to orchestral scores (mine I suppose might be classified as hybrid - sometimes) I also do a fair amount of acoustic-y songwriter demos, as well as mockups for musical-theater style arrangements (think "Enchanted" - though I didn't work on that one). 

BTW Jacques - I'm a huge fan of BFD - really feels like I'm working with a real drumkit. Looking forward to checking out BFD2.

Thanks!

Doug


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## Waywyn (Dec 14, 2007)

dlbest @ Fri Dec 14 said:


> .... Any other favorite outboard comps/eq's I should look into? Folks on gearslutz seem to like the api2500, the drawmer 1968 and the Neve Portico comp - any thoughts?



Sorry, I really wish I could be more help in terms of outboard hardware gear, but there is one very important thing to know about those expensive compressors and hardware in general. If it's Manley, Avalon, Neve, Drawmer, API, Tubetech or whatever ... there is no better than the other. It is just a matter of sound which you like.

Also there are certain compressors and gear which doesn't fit on every type of music. So you might use another compressor for a rock drumset than on a general orchestral mix.

If you plan on buying such an expensive piece of hardware I would make sure to let your ear decide. Treat it like a car. Which one do you like most? which one do you just fall in love with? Would you instantly call a certain piece of gear he or she? That's important. It is the same with professional musicians. They are all good, but it's the "character" and "tone" which makes you like him/her most 

A little help would be to do stems - if it's orchestra then do strings, brass, woods and percussion - visit a studio near to you and ask the guys to mix and sum your four stereo stems through several devices.

This leads me to another question ... and also answer. I think it is much more important to not just have a decent compressor to let your audio run through. It is the summing up of all the signal come together in a final stereo stem.

Why do expensive mixing consoles cost up a few hundred of thousands of bucks. Is it just a hype? No! I think summing and mixing stereo signal on such a beast sounds much better than mixing on digital internal channels.

So I would maybe look into a decent summing or mixing amp.


Just my 2 cents.


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## JacquesMathias (Dec 14, 2007)

Hey Doug, 

Nice topic, indeed!

BFD2 is very nice to use, its processors sounds very nice too.

They just put 4 new demos for BFD2 i did. (Sorry moderator, i am not sure if i can say that, since i work with fxpansion). 

Best!

Jacques.


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## dlbest (Dec 14, 2007)

Thanks Alex - good advice for all. There's nothing like hearing your stuff through a great console - I agree that's the ideal - but I'm looking for something to make my day-to-day mixes better. I do use a folcrom to sum my final 4 stereo stems - I run it through a very nice and transparent earthworks mic pre (for makeup gain) and then sometimes through a compressor and eq - kind of like a poor man's mastering - but I'm pretty good at it and it makes a difference - to me anyway! Just looking for some other color options...

Looking forward to checking out those BFD demos Jacques - very cool. Any recommendations for where one can go to get decent midi drum patterns? I love to use those as a starting point, since I'm not a drummer - the patterns that come with BFD and the expansion kits are great - but I'm always wanting more...!

Doug


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## Ed (Dec 14, 2007)

josejherring @ Thu Sep 20 said:


> Maybe when I score "The Last Samurai II: Resurrection", but for now that price is a wee bit more than I want to spend. ~o)



Hehe, zombie Cruise.


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