# When Marketing Crosses the Line of Etiquette (Audio Plugin Deals)



## Wunderhorn (Nov 23, 2018)

Just got a marketing text message on my phone from Audio Plugin Deals.
This was never requested nor authorized. I find that simply rude.

I can understand that the battle for customers is getting heated over the holidays, however there is no reason to loose one's etiquette. A marketer needs to get consent for contacting customers in this way before sending out their marketing messages.


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## NDRU (Nov 23, 2018)

I got that same text.. hmmm


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## Eric G (Nov 23, 2018)

Agreed. I replied a STOP immediately. Don't know how they got my number.


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## NDRU (Nov 23, 2018)

Eric G said:


> Agreed. I replied a STOP immediately. Don't know how they got my number.


I suggest to block the number  I don't want them to know I exist.. yawn**


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## SoNowWhat? (Nov 23, 2018)

Didn’t like it either. Thought it was a bit (lot) intrusive. I see the emails easily enough and act if I want to. Sending me txt messages as well is just going to turn me off visiting APD at all. But that’s me and my opinion only.


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## erica-grace (Nov 23, 2018)

I didn't get a text, but that's absolutely crossing the line. What's next - phone calls?

Shameful. Anything to make an extra buck.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Nov 23, 2018)

I got the APD spam text too. Boo. 

Off the top of my head, here are some super classy, quality developers (who had nothing to do with the text) that do business with APD.

@Soundiron Team
@audioimperia
@zircon_st
@Realitone
@Embertone
@Simone Coen
@nathantboler


If any of these fine folks could tell Audio Plugin Deals that it isn't cool to text people without asking permission first, it'd be an awesome move. Thanks for keeping it real!


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## PaulBrimstone (Nov 23, 2018)

Never mind the texts and phone calls. They just turned up on my doorstep, holding balloons and whisky.


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## Quasar (Nov 23, 2018)

I got the same text, and also used the STOP option.

I don't have a smart phone, do not pay a data plan, but just have a flip phone and I dislike texting. My friends know not to text me unless it's a simple informational thing.

Bad form APD.


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## goalie composer (Nov 23, 2018)

Ditto. Not impressed


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## wst3 (Nov 23, 2018)

impressed, but not in a positive manner... it was a huge overstep! I blocked the number because replying with "stop" tells them they found a legit number.

How they got the number in the first place remains a mystery.


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## NoamL (Nov 23, 2018)

Not only a text but it says to check their site several times a day because "New deals unlock every 8 hours." Screw off. Darkly fascinating how they found all of our numbers because I don't recall that ever being asked.


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## DavidY (Nov 23, 2018)

If you're in Europe, I though GDPR was supposed to stop that sort of thing? 
I've had plenty of other companies asking if I want to receive emails/ sms etc which although it meant a spike in emails in May, seemed to be a reasonable way to do things.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Nov 23, 2018)

I have an additional small gripe with APD. The current Embertone ISS deal they are running is being advertised as 60% off, but if you look at Embertone's current full retail price ($297) 





and compare with the https://audioplugin.deals/intimate-solo-strings-by-embertone/ (APD deal) ($199), 




it's closer to 30% off.

30% is still a discount, I'm only pointing out that they're more-or-less fudging the numbers to hype their sale. Not a huge deal, but not a good look either.


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## dzilizzi (Nov 23, 2018)

PaulBrimstone said:


> Never mind the texts and phone calls. They just turned up on my doorstep, holding balloons and whisky.


I would invite them in with the whisky. Unfortunately, I have already bought a lot of their deals, so I probably won't be buying from them this holiday season.

Edit: I don't usually get texts because I still give out the house phone number. It doesn't get texts. I am sure your phone number was given when you paid at some time. This doesn't make it right, especially as some people have to pay for received texts.


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## Guido Negraszus (Nov 23, 2018)

I live in Western Australia and got the message just after 5 am. Thanks a lot. I suffer from insomnia and this is usually the time where I am able to sleep. What are these people thinking? That the emails are not enough...?


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## Lode_Runner (Nov 23, 2018)

Also chiming in to say I didn't appreciate it. The thing with text messages is they're not like your email that you might check once or twice a day, they distract you when you're in the middle of something like work or sleep or music or catching up with friends. It's fine if it's a friend contacting you about something that's important to you, but not cool when used for marketing.

I'm also going to use this opportunity to say I also really dislike APD's use of affiliate links for marketing. I've ended up blocking 2 members for doing this. I just need one sale announcement on VI Control, any more than that and it's spam.


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## richardt4520 (Nov 23, 2018)

Add me to the group who did not appreciate that. That was a little too invasive, imo.


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## clonewar (Nov 23, 2018)

I was very surprised to get the text too, definitely stepping over the line as I never approve texting from businesses. I immediately replied STOP and blocked the phone number.

And it gets better, if you google the phone number that I received the text from, 855-524-6680, it comes up as a number also used in popup phishing scams. Bad move by APD!


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## chimuelo (Nov 23, 2018)

Well you can STOP but I bet. if you read Microsoft’s EULA or the developer you’ll most likely see your data is shared and you agreed.
Free VPNs, FakeBook, Alphabet/Google, etc. Some sneaky bastards.

I got rid of those problems a couple years back. Attorney told me when my credit cards or debit cards expire to use a fake # number for the new one.
I even use the area code of where the Credit Union or Bank are located.
Just don’t forget it because when asked during a purchase it just needs to match the record.

You can also share an email address with someone and share the password.
Just use your messages as a draft. After they’re read you delete it.
Since it’s never sent, it’s never collected by stalkers who legally can read your shit.

Gotta have an edge these days with these scoundrels and data pimps.


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## Saxer (Nov 23, 2018)

Simple thing: stop buying from Audioplugins.


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## SoNowWhat? (Nov 23, 2018)

PaulBrimstone said:


> Never mind the texts and phone calls. They just turned up on my doorstep, holding balloons and whisky.


...


...


...whisky ya say?


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## SoNowWhat? (Nov 24, 2018)

chimuelo said:


> Well you can STOP but I bet. if you read Microsoft’s EULA or the developer you’ll most likely see your data is shared and you agreed.
> Free VPNs, FakeBook, Alphabet/Google, etc. Some sneaky bastards.
> 
> I got rid of those problems a couple years back. Attorney told me when my credit cards or debit cards expire to use a fake # number for the new one.
> ...


this technique of not sending emails and using drafts to exchange info may have worked in the past but the FBI are on to it in the US. No idea what that means for the rest of the world. Ask Paul Manafort.

This story dates back to 2012 so not really working anymore.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2012/11/12/heres-the-e-mail-trick-petraeus-and-broadwell-used-to-communicate/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.f740747b775d


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## TheUnfinished (Nov 24, 2018)

Yeah, have to agree. Very shady behaviour. They have certainly not had my express permission to use my phone number (I'm not 100% convinced I ever gave it to them!).

I think they may be in partnership with some other audio deal companies, so quite frankly they've managed to tar them all with the same brush.

And GDPR rules should mean this is illegal. Your data is NOT safe with them, basically. And you can request for them to delete it from their databases.

Needless to say, I won't be buying from them ever again.


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## mouse (Nov 24, 2018)

Reeks of desperation and its a number of steps too far. What I'm really curious about though is where you got from number from @APD as I never gave it to you in the first place?!


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## mouse (Nov 24, 2018)

TheUnfinished said:


> Yeah, have to agree. Very shady behaviour. They have certainly not had my express permission to use my phone number (I'm not 100% convinced I ever gave it to them!).
> 
> I think they may be in partnership with some other audio deal companies, so quite frankly they've managed to tar them all with the same brush.
> 
> ...



Which other companies?


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## Lode_Runner (Nov 24, 2018)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I have an additional small gripe with APD. The current Embertone ISS deal they are running is being advertised as 60% off, but if you look at Embertone's current full retail price ($297)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


APD is rerunning deals they've previously run, and at the time they first ran the deal it would have been 60% off. Embertone have very recently reduced their prices on the Intimate Strings. It may just be a forgotten communication, ie APD wasn't aware of the change, and Embertone didn't think to alert them as the deal was sometime ago.


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## TheUnfinished (Nov 24, 2018)

mouse said:


> Which other companies?


I'm not certain, so I won't implicate anyone accidentally.


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## averystemmler (Nov 24, 2018)

Absolutely unacceptable. I'm glad I'm not the only one put off by this. I usually take an understanding angle on these things - it's hard to make a living out there - but APD exists as a weird and unnecessary middleman anyways. Economics is hardly my expertise, but frankly, the only way I can see their business model working out (sometimes charging less than the devs providing the licenses) is if they have an additional source of income unrelated to the products they're selling. Perhaps this includes their customers' data.

Either way, I'll now bang that boycott drum every chance I get. It casts a bad shadow on the devs dealing with them too, but I fully believe the folks at Embertone, Impact Soundworks, etc. wouldn't condone this sort of disrespect toward their customers.


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## mouse (Nov 24, 2018)

TheUnfinished said:


> I'm not certain, so I won't implicate anyone accidentally.



I assume you mean Sample Logic and Kirk Hunter. Sample Logic own Audio Plugin Deals and they also own Kirk Hunter as mentioned here:

https://vi-control.net/community/th...et-my-email-address.63256/page-3#post-4141685

So boycott both of those companies too. I guess they might have got our phone numbers from either of those companies though I don't believe I gave them to them before


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## willbedford (Nov 24, 2018)

I got the text too. I don't think I would have given them my number, and I'm not even sure I bought anything from them. Surely this is a breach of GDPR...


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## TheUnfinished (Nov 24, 2018)

mouse said:


> I assume you mean Sample Logic and Kirk Hunter. Sample Logic own Audio Plugin Deals and they also own Kirk Hunter as mentioned here:
> 
> https://vi-control.net/community/th...et-my-email-address.63256/page-3#post-4141685



No, that isn't something I was aware of.

Please don't put words in my mouth when I've expressly said I'm not going to say who I was thinking of in case I was wrong.


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## catsass (Nov 24, 2018)

They still have not responded to my, "What are you wearing?" textual retort.


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## APD (Nov 24, 2018)

Thank you for all of the feedback regarding SMS/Texting for deal updates…

First off, we hope you all are enjoying the deals we have worked tirelessly to provide for everyone this Black Friday (more to come). In that spirit we wanted to make sure all of our loyal APD customers were up to date with the countdown based black lighting deals, for which we’ve never offered some many at once. As we have had many requests for sms/text alerts from customer who prefer messaging over email, we decided to roll out messaging for Black Friday and have had overwhelming positive results. 

That said, after reading through all the feedback here, it is clear that many of you on VI Control do not wish to receive sms / text alerts on new deals. Your feedback is super helpful to us and we respect each and every opinion. 

We sincerely apologize to anyone who these messages have inconvenienced. Please know that all correspondence from APD is direct from APD and not from any of the developers. We are an independent company and operate under our own authority. We promise to do better for all of you!


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## jneebz (Nov 24, 2018)

Huh. Little typo there...LOOPHOLE!


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## jneebz (Nov 24, 2018)

APD said:


> As we have had many requests for sms/text alerts from customer who prefer messaging over email


Is this an option when you make a purchase at your site?


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## mouse (Nov 24, 2018)

So... Where did you get our phone numbers from?


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## TheUnfinished (Nov 24, 2018)

APD said:


> Thank you for all of the feedback regarding SMS/Texting for deal updates…
> 
> First off, we hope you all are enjoying the deals we have worked tirelessly to provide for everyone this Black Friday (more to come). In that spirit we wanted to make sure all of our loyal APD customers were up to date with the countdown based black lighting deals, for which we’ve never offered some many at once. As we have had many requests for sms/text alerts from customer who prefer messaging over email, we decided to roll out messaging for Black Friday and have had overwhelming positive results.
> 
> ...



Turn the marketing off when apologising, otherwise it comes across as wholly insincere.


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## NoamL (Nov 24, 2018)

We know many of you were surprised to wake up this morning to find a leopard eating your face, but you should know we have had overwhelming requests from our loyal customers for more leopards. We understand that the rollout of the leopard-eating-your-face feature may have been a bumpy one for you ungrateful VI-Control kvetchers, and will do everything we can in future to make the leopard experience a pleasant and, for us, profitable one.


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## Mornats (Nov 24, 2018)

Thanks for replying to this thread APD. Could you let us know where you got our phone numbers from please? I never give mine out online unless absolutely required. Also, as I reside in the EU, I (and many others I assume) would like to know whether this was compliant with GDPR.


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## Joe_D (Nov 24, 2018)

I just blocked APD here on VI-C, so I won’t be seeing their posts from now on.


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## Lode_Runner (Nov 24, 2018)

For those wondering where APD got your phone number it's on the sign up form you complete when you first purchase. It has an asterisk indicating it's a required field.


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## Mornats (Nov 24, 2018)

That explains where they got it from then  Still, they have no reason whatsoever to require it. Also I'm pretty sure they need permission to market per channel and I never agree to phone.


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## bryla (Nov 24, 2018)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I have an additional small gripe with APD. The current Embertone ISS deal they are running is being advertised as 60% off, but if you look at Embertone's current full retail price ($297)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thought they had been smart and compared it to the price of all solo strings individually but they total $396 making it only half price. I wonder where they got a listing price of $500?? @APD ?


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## erica-grace (Nov 24, 2018)

Mornats said:


> Still, they have no reason whatsoever to require it (phone #).



As far as they are concerned, yes they do have a reason. How else would they spam you?

This is exactly why I never ever EVER give my real phone number. Which explains why I never got the text - it went to a bogus #


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## Land of Missing Parts (Nov 24, 2018)

erica-grace said:


> As far as they are concerned, yes they do have a reason. How else would they spam you?
> 
> This is exactly why I never ever EVER give my real phone number. Which explains why I never got the text - it went to a bogus #


Do you ever get payments declined with the bogus number?


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## HelixK (Nov 24, 2018)

There's no mention to text messages on their terms & conditions or privacy policy, so that response was bs. I am (was) subscribed to the newsletter and that's it. I didn't authorize them to spam my phone, which I was led to believe they needed for payment reasons.


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## Lode_Runner (Nov 24, 2018)

Mornats said:


> Still, they have no reason whatsoever to require it. Also I'm pretty sure they need permission to market per channel and I never agree to phone.


 I agree with you. Sorry I was a bit concerned after posting that my post might come across as a defense of APD, rather than just a bit of neutral fact-checking.



bryla said:


> Thought they had been smart and compared it to the price of all solo strings individually but they total $396 making it only half price. I wonder where they got a listing price of $500?? @APD ?


 Regarding this, APD are rerunning deals they've run in the past. Embertone have (very recently) reduced their pricing on the Intimate Strings. I'm guessing APD just reused the information from the first time, without checking it was still current.

I'm not sure why I'm playing peacekeeper.


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## erica-grace (Nov 24, 2018)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Do you ever get payments declined with the bogus number?



Never. Paypal, and my CC companies look for name and address - not phone number. Those are always correct.


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## Paul Grymaud (Nov 24, 2018)

*What ?! They are angry ? Okay, I'll dial all the numbers I've got here.*


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## dzilizzi (Nov 24, 2018)

Mornats said:


> That explains where they got it from then  Still, they have no reason whatsoever to require it. Also I'm pretty sure they need permission to market per channel and I never agree to phone.


A lot of the time your credit card company requires it which is probably why they program it as a required item even if they use Paypal.


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## AdamAlake (Nov 24, 2018)

APD said:


> As we have had many requests for sms/text alerts from customer who prefer messaging over email


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## Morning Coffee (Nov 24, 2018)

I know for a fact that I didn't give my correct phone details with this company and many other music library related companies, yet I still received a message on my personal phone number. How did they get my number then? Not sure what or who to believe, which is why I don't like giving out too much personal information.

This is part of their privacy policy, interesting, although it doesn't mention anything about phone numbers.





https://audioplugin.deals/privacy-policy/


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## timprebble (Nov 24, 2018)

Sadly this marketing approach will have been AB tested and if despite X% of negative feedback it generates Y% of extra revenue then they will continue doing it. Common decency and privacy seem to just be ignored, as that condescending response indicated... The sad aspect of companies like @APD doing this, is that they have revealed that I can't ethically trust them. I wont be buying anything from them ever again.


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## prodigalson (Nov 24, 2018)

I've never bought anything from @APD and I certainly won't be doing now.


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## nathantboler (Nov 24, 2018)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I got the APD spam text too. Boo.
> 
> Off the top of my head, here are some super classy, quality developers (who had nothing to do with the text) that do business with APD.
> 
> ...



Thanks for bringing it to our attention. We're on it.


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## Chr!s (Nov 24, 2018)

This kinda thing is why I avoid buying from anyone but the manufacturer now. Not saying 1st party is inherently above this but...

A lot of these 3rd party distributors are sketchy as hell. Case in point, and they can't even avoid mistakes in their privacy & data "protection" policy. 

Haven't felt this safe since that time I let Stevie Wonder take the wheel.


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## Quasar (Nov 24, 2018)

I didn't like the text, but I am certainly not _outraged_ about it, nor will it prevent me from buying something at APD again if they're offering a good deal for something I want.

I simply assume that there is no privacy on the grid, which is a big part of why I keep my DAW workstation offline. I'll save my outrage for the companies and developers who require that I place my private workstation into the online miasma to activate their products... Compared to violations of that order, a text message resulting from a past online transaction isn't a big deal at all.


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## Mornats (Nov 24, 2018)

Lode_Runner said:


> I agree with you. Sorry I was a bit concerned after posting that my post might come across as a defense of APD, rather than just a bit of neutral fact-checking



No worries


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## mouse (Nov 24, 2018)

Mornats said:


> Thanks for replying to this thread APD. Could you let us know where you got our phone numbers from please? I never give mine out online unless absolutely required. Also, as I reside in the EU, I (and many others I assume) would like to know whether this was compliant with GDPR.



Its not compliant with GDPR as GDPR requires that "optin" is requested rather than assumed. Their privacy policy states "By using our services, you agree to Opt In" and that's completely against the law now in the EU


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## 667 (Nov 25, 2018)

I just unsubscribed. This company has been weirdly shady from the inception. Spam texts in a world we already get enough of them? No. Freakin. Way. Never get another dollar from me.


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## jcrosby (Nov 25, 2018)

anbg90 said:


> I got that same text.. hmmm


Same here, yesterday...
Always kinda expected APD to be dodgy like this though... Not one to have high expectations from websites that pass themselves off as hubs for _Too good to be true_ deals... (Still an absolute pain in the ass... And a damned good reminder why the EU passed GDP, and why the US should have similar laws...)

If you're in North America, (or buy from North American vendors), send complaints here: https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/Information#crnt&panel1-4 (Select:
_UNWANTED TELEMARKETING, TEXT, OR SPAM)_
The only pathway for US vendors being forced to play by rules even slightly resembling EU data protection is going to be through the FTC...


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## Daniel James (Nov 25, 2018)

Isn't APD owned by SampleLogic or something like that? Perhaps you bought from SL and they transferred that information to APD? I also got it.

-DJ


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## normangladworth (Nov 25, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Isn't APD owned by SampleLogic or something like that? Perhaps you bought from SL and they transferred that information to APD? I also got it.
> 
> -DJ


Frederick (previous owner of VI-C) also sold all the VI-C user data to APD a while back (just before it was purchased by Mike Green). The reason I know this is because I had a personalized email address which I had only ever used for VI-C. Up until I deleted it, it had only ever had emails from VI-C... and then suddenly got marketting spam from APD, A company I have never purchased from.

Considering Frederick was willing to sell the forum data, it's not a leap for him to sell the VI-C phone app data. This app used to request all permissions (when it was free, AND when it was paid) which would include your cell #, contacts, etc. that could easily be one source of a bunch of cell # to spam.


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## mouse (Nov 25, 2018)

normangladworth said:


> Frederick (previous owner of VI-C) also sold all the VI-C user data to APD a while back (just before it was purchased by Mike Green). The reason I know this is because I had a personalized email address which I had only ever used for VI-C. Up until I deleted it, it had only ever had emails from VI-C... and then suddenly got marketting spam from APD, A company I have never purchased from.
> 
> Considering Frederick was willing to sell the forum data, it's not a leap for him to sell the VI-C phone app data. This app used to request all permissions (when it was free, AND when it was paid) which would include your cell #, contacts, etc. that could easily be one source of a bunch of cell # to spam.



Woah...


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## TheUnfinished (Nov 25, 2018)

normangladworth said:


> Frederick (previous owner of VI-C) also sold all the VI-C user data to APD a while back (just before it was purchased by Mike Green). The reason I know this is because I had a personalized email address which I had only ever used for VI-C. Up until I deleted it, it had only ever had emails from VI-C... and then suddenly got marketting spam from APD, A company I have never purchased from.
> 
> Considering Frederick was willing to sell the forum data, it's not a leap for him to sell the VI-C phone app data. This app used to request all permissions (when it was free, AND when it was paid) which would include your cell #, contacts, etc. that could easily be one source of a bunch of cell # to spam.


If true, that is appalling.


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## rottoy (Nov 25, 2018)

I never got a text, so I'm appalled that I can't complain in here.


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## Morning Coffee (Nov 25, 2018)

rottoy said:


> I never got a text, so I'm appalled that I can't complain in here.



It is not about texts, it is about honesty and trust. Why is that so hard for some people to understand?


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## rottoy (Nov 25, 2018)

I do apologize for being facetious. I agree that the lack of trust and transparency on this matter is incredibly disheartening.


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## paoling (Nov 25, 2018)

I wonder how, after all the scandals (there are multiple threads in the past) they can still run a business. Also I wonder how many of my fellow colleagues that I admire can still run promotions with them.


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## Michael Antrum (Nov 25, 2018)

Guys, you do know who really owns APD don't you....






First he hacks the elections.....


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## rottoy (Nov 25, 2018)

mikeybabes said:


> Guys, you do know who really owns APD don't you....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I call fake news. None of the keys are red.


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## Mike Fox (Nov 25, 2018)

normangladworth said:


> Frederick (previous owner of VI-C) also sold all the VI-C user data to APD a while back (just before it was purchased by Mike Green). The reason I know this is because I had a personalized email address which I had only ever used for VI-C. Up until I deleted it, it had only ever had emails from VI-C... and then suddenly got marketting spam from APD, A company I have never purchased from.
> 
> Considering Frederick was willing to sell the forum data, it's not a leap for him to sell the VI-C phone app data. This app used to request all permissions (when it was free, AND when it was paid) which would include your cell #, contacts, etc. that could easily be one source of a bunch of cell # to spam.


And they say there's no money in online forums.


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## Mike Fox (Nov 25, 2018)

paoling said:


> I wonder how, after all the scandals (there are multiple threads in the past)



Where? And do they concern the same issue?


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## paoling (Nov 25, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> Where? And do they concern the same issue?


https://vi-control.net/community/threads/thread-about-samplelogic-email-has-vanished.63326/
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/ok-censorship-lets-get-a-clear-answer-please.63339/

And some others that have been removed for concerns about possibly false accusations. (I don't want to renovate the drama though)


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## Jaap (Nov 25, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Isn't APD owned by SampleLogic or something like that? Perhaps you bought from SL and they transferred that information to APD? I also got it.
> 
> -DJ



Yes seems so, browing through the Privacy policy I saw that Audioplugindeals parent company is Frontend Media Group LLC, and a quick google learned that it is run by Joseph Trupiano and he is also the owner of of Sample Logic


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## Polkasound (Nov 25, 2018)

There is a LOT of money in personal data. There are big brokers out there, like Experian and Axcion, who exist just to buy and sell your data, and there are thousands of companies harvesting your data just to sell it to them. Whenever you sign up for something with your personal data, and the site says something like, "we only share this data with..." it's a safe bet it will eventually end up being passed on to a broker. This is the cash cow that made Mark Zuckerberg a billionaire.

In APD's case, however, they state that they never sell your data. That may be true. But there's nothing that says they won't use the data they buy.

To avoid intrusions, always give a fake phone number when one is requested. To limit spam, use a dispensable email account.


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## Mike Fox (Nov 25, 2018)

paoling said:


> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/thread-about-samplelogic-email-has-vanished.63326/
> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/ok-censorship-lets-get-a-clear-answer-please.63339/
> 
> And some other that have been removed for concerns about possibly false accusations. (I don't want to renovate the drama though)


Thanks! Just curious.


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## Mornats (Nov 25, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> To avoid intrusions, always give a fake phone number when one is requested. To limit spam, use a dispensable email account.



As much as GDPR is a pain, it exists so we don't have to do this.


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## Polkasound (Nov 25, 2018)

Well, the U.S. Government has a Do Not Call registry, but ask any American how that's working out. No matter where we live in the world, we're losing more and more of our privacy every year as more companies siphon from the cash cow that is our data. We all have to look out for ourselves as best we can.


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## Mike Greene (Nov 25, 2018)

normangladworth said:


> Frederick (previous owner of VI-C) also sold all the VI-C user data to APD a while back (just before it was purchased by Mike Greene). The reason I know this is because I had a personalized email address which I had only ever used for VI-C. Up until I deleted it, it had only ever had emails from VI-C... and then suddenly got marketting spam from APD, A company I have never purchased from.
> 
> Considering Frederick was willing to sell the forum data, it's not a leap for him to sell the VI-C phone app data. This app used to request all permissions (when it was free, AND when it was paid) which would include your cell #, contacts, etc. that could easily be one source of a bunch of cell # to spam.


For liability reasons, I'll avoid commenting too specifically, and I won't offer an opinion on whether what you're alleging actually happened, but lets just say that at the time, the situation really pissed me off and I was going to pursue legal action. There were a ton of things all happening during the forum transition, though, plus I was already being taken away from my "real" gigs (Realitone and composing), so I decided it wasn't worth the additional time and stress. After a few emails to the involved parties (or not involved parties - I'll make no accusations here), the mysterious emailings ended, so I decided to leave it at that. At least for now.

Regarding phone numbers, though, that isn't information that VI-Control has ever had. All that we have is your screen name, email address, and what DAW you use. Or at least what DAW you _claimed_ to use when you signed up.  We do also have the IP address you logged on from, but that's just so we can screen likely spam accounts. (There is no personal info in an IP address.)

Even with the app (which I discontinued), I don't think there was ever any phone number info there, since phone numbers aren't used when downloading apps. (At least not on iOS, where your Apple ID is all that's required.) Even if a phone number was somehow submitted during the process of installing app, I can tell you for sure that I do not have it, and I got everything Frederick had, so it was never given to us. As far as the app being able to access your phone's contacts and info and send the info to us, that's definitely not the case with this particular app.

For the record, I, Mike Greene, will never ever sell or give out your personal info. (Unless it's a legitimate one on one situation where someone who I trust needs to contact another member by email.)


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## JohnG (Nov 25, 2018)

It seems increasingly difficult to pinpoint a specific source of spam. Many / most people have given away a huge amount of information willingly, without reading terms-of-use agreements at all, or at least not thoroughly. The Apple agreement is something like 100 pages or more.

Besides, like many, I have two-step authentication at more than one site, so at least they have my cell phone number.

Apart from the EU law, there is legislation even in the US now, at least in California, though it may take a while to make any difference. Even then, there will still be plenty of churn from actors who are unscrupulous and / or those beyond the reach of jurisdictions from which privacy laws emanate.

I have no firm information about VI Control as a source, but I doubt anyone else does either. I didn't get any texts and I've been a member for quite some time. 

Maybe they did arise as a result of VI Control, but I wonder if it's possible they could stem from some other activity or purchase.


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## tack (Nov 25, 2018)

normangladworth said:


> The reason I know this is because I had a personalized email address which I had only ever used for VI-C. Up until I deleted it, it had only ever had emails from VI-C... and then suddenly got marketting spam from APD, A company I have never purchased from.


I also use a unique email address for VI-C, and another unique email address for APD. All I can say is I've never gotten an email from APD to my VI-C address. (I do know that my PayPal address has leaked and I suspect it's related to a past donation to VI-C.)

I haven't received any texts from APD but then I have a habit of entering bogus personal information unless the company I'm conducting business with has a legitimate need for that information.

But the sheer volume of emails I've received from APD over the past few days is simply unacceptable. They have dominated my inbox. I unsubscribed and will probably disable my APD email address.


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## Polkasound (Nov 25, 2018)

tack said:


> But the sheer volume of emails I've received from APD over the past few days is simply unacceptable. They have dominated my inbox. I unsubscribed and will probably disable my APD email address.



Unsubscribing should do the trick. I have not received one email from APD. Your situation above is the reason I unsubscribed from 8Dio. I couldn't tolerate the volume of email. Besides, I catch wind of all the deals out there just by being a member of VI-C.


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## babylonwaves (Nov 25, 2018)

mouse said:


> Its not compliant with GDPR as GDPR requires that "optin" is requested rather than assumed. Their privacy policy states "By using our services, you agree to Opt In" and that's completely against the law now in the EU


unless APD is located within the EU, GDPR doesn't apply to them-


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## bryla (Nov 25, 2018)

Not true https://www.itgovernance.eu/blog/en/does-the-gdpr-apply-to-me


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## DavidY (Nov 25, 2018)

babylonwaves said:


> unless APD is located within the EU, GDPR doesn't apply to them-


I am not a lawyer... but my interpretation of this is that it could do?
https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-t...ulation/who-does-data-protection-law-apply_en



> The law applies to:
> 
> a company or entity which processes personal data as part of the activities of one of its branches established in the EU, regardless of where the data is processed; or
> a company established outside the EU offering goods/services (paid or for free) or monitoring the behaviour of individuals in the EU.


Edit: beaten to it!


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## babylonwaves (Nov 25, 2018)

@bryla @DavidY
thanks! interesting, i didn't know that (but hey, I'm not a lawyer). still, the reality of things is different. whereas the majority of EU based companies requested OKs in order to send emails to their customers in the future, i cannot say that a single US based company send a similar request to my account.


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## Lode_Runner (Nov 25, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> For the record, I, Mike Greene, will never ever sell or give out your personal info. (Unless it's a legitimate one on one situation where someone who I trust needs to contact another member by email.)



Better way to do that is to email the other member yourself and let them know the person you trust is trying to get in touch with them and can be contacted at [email protected], that way you're only passing on contact details of someone who has told you they want to be in contact with the other party.

Sorry about quoting winky face, my phone wouldn't delete it.


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## PaulBrimstone (Nov 25, 2018)

I'm sure everyone realises that the CIA, FBI, GCHQ, Russians, Chinese, Australians, Welsh, Nepalese, ancient Egyptians and probably the Andaman Islanders ALREADY have every piece of personal information on all of us that ever existed. Likely thanks to Facebook, which I would delete in a heartbeat if I didn't need it for work etc. So while I sympathise/agree with the complaints here, it's a bit of a drop in the surveillance ocean, no?


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## Polkasound (Nov 25, 2018)

PaulBrimstone said:


> So while I sympathise/agree with the complaints here, it's a bit of a drop in the surveillance ocean, no?



I tend to agree, although I still try to make it more difficult for my data to be compiled. Since I don't use social media, credit/debit cards, or store rewards cards, data collectors are going to compile a lot less information about me than the average tweeting, liking, pinning, posting, and charging American.


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## pderbidge (Nov 25, 2018)

PaulBrimstone said:


> I'm sure everyone realises that the CIA, FBI, GCHQ, Russians, Chinese, Australians, Welsh, Nepalese, ancient Egyptians and probably the Andaman Islanders ALREADY have every piece of personal information on all of us that ever existed. Likely thanks to Facebook, which I would delete in a heartbeat if I didn't need it for work etc. So while I sympathise/agree with the complaints here, it's a bit of a drop in the surveillance ocean, no?


Absolutely, and that's all info just waiting to be breached. A little over a year ago my work laid off 80 plus people, including me and for the first time in 20+ years I had no source of income so I applied for unemployment. Long story short, due to all the 3rd party companies that handle resume submissions these days I've applied for a number of jobs through their online process (which takes about 2 hours longer than just sending a resume by the way) and ever since I get at least 2 spam calls a day on my cell phone. How does this relate to the government? Well it does and it doesn't. It's not that the Government is out there selling your info but they are driving policies that affect the way businesses hire and fire workers, so inadvertently the mess just gets messier. Don't expect your country laws and regulations to solve this problem. Now those 3rd party companies hired to take your resume info are double dipping. They get paid to handle resume's for a business or multiple businesses and then get paid again by selling all that data they collect. Before I was laid off I never had spam calls on my phone so I'm fairly certain this was the source.


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## star.keys (Nov 26, 2018)

Please may I suggest that it would be a kind gesture to ignore an email/SMS or two and put it into spam if it is undesired. There are a million sources of data to the advertisers and it is far too easy to collect the dots and produce full customer profile. We need this forum and the admin are doing a great job at running it. I don't hope to read these conversations about legal rights and breaches here. Life is short, please move on, make some music and enjoy a stress free life!

Cheers


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## PeterN (Nov 26, 2018)

Maybe a bit off topic, but Im too shy to start own thread. (Just kidding) But heres something related to this topic.

So anyway, theres like 2-3 mails from Waves eveyday now. Sonuscore in morning and Sonuscore in evening. Even Cinesamples is running on steroids. Yea, audioplugindeals. I check my mail in the morning and theres about 10 mails about VI sales, and I dont bother read them anymore. (I used to like these before). Then in evening theres 10 more to delete.

Whatever has happened with the marketing, but it has become lot more aggressive. Word of advice, if theres too much this marketing you will be blocked. Cool down a bit.


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## Mystic (Nov 26, 2018)

I too was very displeased about the text but APD owned up to their mistake here and said they won't do it again so I'm happy. There's no need at this point to go off the deep end with people picking up pitch forks. I know people have concerns about the privacy issue as well but if you're willing to boycott one company for having information like this, you're not going to be shopping in very many places because around 90% of the companies on the planet buys, sells and trades your information. The best defense you have when it comes to privacy, especially online is browsing with more secure browsers that have your privacy in mind while using plugins that block any unneeded outgoing information like Ghostery and Ublock Origin and using false information where you can.


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## TheUnfinished (Nov 26, 2018)

I see your point Mystic, but I don't think this thread has become very pitchfork-y (especially in comparison to some VI threads!). In fact, it has branched off into discussions about data and marketing, which people seem interested in.

As for...



Mystic said:


> I too was very displeased about the text but APD owned up to their mistake here and said they won't do it again so I'm happy.



They didn't. They apologised to anyone who might have been inconvenienced by it, but made a thing of declaring the texting a success. They also made no statement about never doing it again. Not sure what made you think that.


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## TheUnfinished (Nov 26, 2018)

PeterN said:


> Maybe a bit off topic, but Im too shy to start own thread. (Just kidding) But heres something related to this topic.
> 
> So anyway, theres like 2-3 mails from Waves eveyday now. Sonuscore in morning and Sonuscore in evening. Even Cinesamples is running on steroids. Yea, audioplugindeals. I check my mail in the morning and theres about 10 mails about VI sales, and I dont bother read them anymore. (I used to like these before). Then in evening theres 10 more to delete.
> 
> Whatever has happened with the marketing, but it has become lot more aggressive. Word of advice, if theres too much this marketing you will be blocked. Cool down a bit.



I think you're right. It has definitely been more aggressive this year. With a concentration from a few developers, I think. Most have been pretty laidback and emailed only a couple of reminders.

Most sale seasons I'm pretty laissez faire about it all - after all, I've signed up for emails. But, I've unsubscribed from half a dozen this Black Friday, whereas normally I don't unsubscribe at all.


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## Mystic (Nov 26, 2018)

TheUnfinished said:


> I see your point Mystic, but I don't think this thread has become very pitchfork-y (especially in comparison to some VI threads!). In fact, it has branched off into discussions about data and marketing, which people seem interested in.


That was mainly in reply to the people who were saying they wouldn't ever buy from them again after they had posted, were blocking them, unsubscribing, etc. but that also brings me to...



> They didn't. They apologised to anyone who might have been inconvenienced by it, but made a thing of declaring the texting a success. They also made no statement about never doing it again. Not sure what made you think that.


You are correct. I read that incorrectly. That's disappointing. That people are unsubbing them is much more reasonable now. :\


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## Wunderhorn (Nov 26, 2018)

APD said:


> We promise to do better for all of you!



*Let sum it all up by asking you directly:*
How is "do better for all of you" going to look like henceforth? Are you going to play nice and ask people for permission before you do _anything_ with _anyone's_ phone number or whatever data?

Please be specific and I would suggest to have that reflected in an updated user agreement on your web site.


May I add that it is also unfair to other developers/dealers who do not expand their marketing outside the bounds of general etiquette and even law (where Europe is concerned).
After all it is - as others already expressed - not just about getting another unwanted text message but more about trust. I only want to do business with partners I feel that I can trust.

Also,



APD said:


> First off, we hope you all are enjoying the deals we have worked tirelessly to provide for everyone this Black Friday



if you want people to appreciate your work putting these deals together then this appreciation may not happen as bountiful as it could when the presentation of your work appears using questionable methods.


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## Geoff Grace (Nov 27, 2018)

TheUnfinished said:


> Most sale seasons I'm pretty laissez faire about it all - after all, I've signed up for emails. But, I've unsubscribed from half a dozen this Black Friday, whereas normally I don't unsubscribe at all.


I finally had enough this year too. I unsubscribed from most of the companies that regularly email me, leaving maybe 20% in place.

And yes, it took me all of a second or two to decide to type "STOP" after receiving the APD text.

Best,

Geoff


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## oliverd (Nov 28, 2018)

I also got this text and was really annoyed to get this at night time when I normally keep my phone on loud for work emergencies. To get woken up to a text message telling me to check out the latest deals *really *annoyed me and its overstepping the mark by a LOT.

I also have no idea where they got my number from as I never gave it to them. Ever. Not on their website and I never used the forum app. Its interesting that although lots of people have asked on this thread, they have no come back to reply to us all and tell is *exactly *where they got our numbers from. 

After reading through the entire thread, it looks like APD "_may have_" bought the entire email database from Vi-Control and have been spamming everyone without their consent? This is pretty insane and massively illegal if true...

I'd be surprised if decent companies like @Soundiron Team, @audioimperia, @zircon_st, @Embertone etc. continue to do business with such a shady company after this....


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## Andrew Aversa (Nov 28, 2018)

I was as surprised to receive the text as anyone. I immediately emailed APD with my concerns and after our conversation, I have absolutely no doubt that they learned a lesson and won't be doing it again. That much was abundantly clear.

I can say is that our impression of APD has otherwise been only positive. We've been in the business for 10 years and have worked with quite a few distributors. We've seen distributors sell products without authorization, undercut us without asking, deliver files incorrectly, pay us late (or not at all), etc. Thankfully, APD has done none of these things. They've been entirely above board in our interactions.

To be clear: I share the opinion that the SMS was not a good idea, and I told them as much. Also to be clear, we did not give them any phone numbers or customer data. But I also think this was a one-off mistake that won't be repeated. An ill-advised marketing stunt. I don't believe it was anything more nefarious than that.


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## PeterN (Nov 29, 2018)

Its too much now, the marketing still flooding in mail long after black friday. Still ten mails a day, theres everything from cinesamples to spitfire. Like on a daily basis. This was the only “spam” I used to be okay with, but it is crossing the line. Will put on block. 

Just one voice from the www.


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## oliverd (Nov 30, 2018)

@APD have posted elsewhere on the forum, but still aren't returning to this thread to actually answer the questions we have. As @Wunderhorn put it:

_How is "do better for all of you" going to look like henceforth? Are you going to play nice and ask people for permission before you do anything with anyone's phone number or whatever data?_

Also I'd like to get a definitive answer about:


WHERE did you get our phone numbers from? Many of us never gave them to you before

Did you buy our email details from the previous owner of this forum?


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## gamma-ut (Nov 30, 2018)

oliverd said:


> WHERE did you get our phone numbers from? Many of us never gave them to you before



Have you bought anything via APD? Phone number is a required field when signing - I'm not sure whether it's always been a required field but you will find one buried in the address details if you look at the account there (if you have one).


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## Drundfunk (Nov 30, 2018)

Page 3, second post in this thread gives you the answer to that


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## Wunderhorn (Dec 3, 2018)

Wunderhorn said:


> *Let sum it all up by asking you directly:*
> How is "do better for all of you" going to look like henceforth? Are you going to play nice and ask people for permission before you do _anything_ with _anyone's_ phone number or whatever data?
> 
> Please be specific and I would suggest to have that reflected in an updated user agreement on your web site.



No answer is also an answer. It speaks volumes and covers all I needed to know regarding this matter.


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## Mornats (Dec 7, 2018)

Just noticed that I was charged for sending the STOP message to APD. It was only 45p but still... (For context my contract gives me unlimited text messages but this one was chargeable.)


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## oliverd (Dec 13, 2018)

Mornats said:


> Just noticed that I was charged for sending the STOP message to APD. It was only 45p but still... (For context my contract gives me unlimited text messages but this one was chargeable.)



I guess @APD made some nice money from the unsubscribes at least. Still no response from them about buying the forum email addresses either which says a lot.

Meanwhile they continue to send 4-5 emails per week...


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## Mornats (Dec 13, 2018)

I also noticed that they'll send an email titled something along the lines of "hours left on this deal" then in the email the countdown will have 2-3 days left on it.


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## Mystic (Dec 13, 2018)

To be fair, I get emails from a lot of companies almost daily about the same deals.


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