# Orchestral Voice-Leading



## dwebs (Dec 7, 2021)

I am amazed at the lack of information on Orchestral Voice-Leading. I have searched everywhere for answers to this question but have never ever found any. Students are rigorously taught all the rules of chorale writing, and then thrown off a cliff when it comes to the orchestra. I read Adler and Piston cover to cover, and only found one Adler reference (in 640 pages) to voice leading, and it is for a for a Hayden String Quartet which hardly needs explanation. Piston maintains that orchestral writing (from Hayden to Brahms, and even Wagner) is generally governed by the same "common practice" guidelines, and that timbral considerations are subordinate to textural considerations (i.e., voice-leading). But then he confuses us again by adding ... textural complexities are due to doubling, tone weight, octave placement, and idiomatic instrument writing.

Also, If voice leading rules are to be generally observed, are the guidelines to be followed by an individual instrument, instrument choir, or the entire orchestra ???

Are there no teachers who have taken the time to codify some of the basic principles of Orchestral Voice-Leading, or if there even is such a thing, and even if just for triads ??? And if there are such guidelines, it should be possible to explain them without confusing the issue with other factors like timbre, doublings for color, strength, blend, etc. If one can break any rule for any reason, there really are no guidelines ... it all comes down to individual color, strength etc. preferences !!! And I can easily live with that, but I'm not sure the "authorities" can. I'd rather not write something that is generally considered without redeeming value (Hahahahahaha)

Everybody (especially on the internet) has their favorite random examples (often duplicated) that do not follow voice leading guidelines, but no one ever says whether they are exceptions, common practices for a specific composer, or common practices for a specific period.

Being told to review scores would take more years than learning Chorale Voice-Leading, and would certainly be hit-or-miss. Further if this would solve the problem of setting guidelines for normal practice (by period if necessary), why has no one documented their findings.

Can anyone recommend any resources to better explain this subject ?

Any assistance would be more than greatly appreciated,

dwebs


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Dec 7, 2021)

What part of you understanding of voice leading is failing you when considering it for the orchestra?

I suppose you sort of touched on it but could you elaborate perhaps with a few examples?


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## dhmusic (Dec 7, 2021)

What is a voice leading


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Dec 7, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> What is a voice leading


it's what dictators do


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## dhmusic (Dec 7, 2021)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> it's what dictators do


omg i knew it


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## dwebs (Dec 7, 2021)

Thank you for your quick and considered response, SimonCharlesHanna , I should have included that information with my question.

Following are some examples for a selected period, even just for *Triads* (if this would be simplest); (of course 7th chords, Extended Chords, NHTs or any other procedures would be a much appreciated plus ... but its probably too much to ask).

Similar Motion, Parallel 4ths, Parallel and Contrary 5ths / Unisons/Octaves, Unequal 5ths, Direct 5ths / Unisons / Octaves, Overlapping In Similar Motion & Crossing In Contrary Motion, Tritone Movement, Melodic Augmented 2nds / 4ths / 5ths, Root Position / 1st & 2nd Inversion Triad Connection (Including All The 6/4 Chord Procedures), Etc.

Thanks for any thoughts ... they are much appreciated.


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## dhmusic (Dec 7, 2021)

dwebs said:


> Thank you for your quick and considered response, SimonCharlesHanna , I should have included that information with my question.
> 
> Following are some examples for a selected period, even just for *Triads* (if this would be simplest); (of course 7th chords, Extended Chords, NHTs or any other procedures would be a much appreciated plus ... but its probably too much to ask).
> 
> ...


theory-master @jbuhler do you know what language this is?


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## NoamL (Dec 7, 2021)

This is kind of a generalization, but if your orchestral piece can't be reduced to a 4-hands piano arrangement, your piece is likely to have arranging/orchestration problems. I mean there is a 4-hands piano arrangement of the entire Rite of Spring.

So when you're looking at an orchestral score, the idea is to try to perceive the reduction to a piano score (or to see the orchestration as an explosion of a piano piece). As much as possible. All of this is to say that the "rules" / principles of voice leading don't change when you go from the piano the orchestra.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Dec 7, 2021)

NoamL said:


> This is kind of a generalization, but if your orchestral piece can't be reduced to a 4-hands piano arrangement, your piece is likely to have arranging/orchestration problems. I mean there is a 4-hands piano arrangement of the entire Rite of Spring.
> 
> So when you're looking at an orchestral score, the idea is to try to perceive the reduction to a piano score (or to see the orchestration as an explosion of a piano piece). As much as possible. All of this is to say that the "rules" / principles of voice leading don't change when you go from the piano the orchestra.


^^ This is where I was going to go with my line of questioning though there are some types of music that will not work with the piano reduction approach but 99.98% of music will.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Dec 7, 2021)

@dwebs The idea of tonal writing is to be able to port Bach chorale writing principles into any timbral medium.

This may be a minority view, but Adler and Piston sucks for this. Worse for us, the American conservatory system is focused on post-modern nonsense.

The reigning combination is probably Tchaikovsky's _Guide to the Practical Study of Harmony_ and Rimsky-Korsakov's _Principles of Orchestration_.

There is a specific passage in Korsakov's which states exactly what @Noam said:

*"The composer should picture to himself the exact harmonic formation of the piece he intends to orchestrate. If, in his rough sketch, there exist any uncertainty as to the number of movement of harmonic parts, he is advised to settle this at once."*


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 7, 2021)

Noam’s post was much clearer than that Rimsky sentence. @NoamL - want to write a book? 

But seriously, it’d be nice if these principles were in a newer book, communicated for a modern audience.


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## GtrString (Dec 8, 2021)

Check out Pete Whitfield's videos on YT


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## mikeh-375 (Dec 8, 2021)

Noam is right in that voice leading rules, as they pertain to functional harmony obviously give good results. The piano should play a lesser role in orchestration because it can be a limiting factor for distribution and imagination. As important, is to make individual parts musical and this may involve voice leading or perhaps it may not, depending on what is trying to be achieved. Idiomatic writing should never be overlooked neither.

As always, common sense and perhaps more relevantly,_ musicality_ and the role of the part within the scor_e_, should also be guiding principles along with voice leading.


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## youngpokie (Dec 8, 2021)

EDIT: The short answer why you don't see orchestral voice leading in orchestration books is because they focus on how notes are assigned to instruments. The (reasonable) assumption is that the composition and voice leading is done as a separate step prior to starting with orchestration. The longish answer in the sense of how it might work in practice follows.===

It's important to see the different context of chorale vs orchestra. In chorale writing, all voices are treated as a coherent polyphonic unit. They blend together sonically. The melody and the bass are inseparable components of that unit, without which it makes no sense. As a result, voice leading is applied to the unit as a whole, and consistency is demanded and enforced by rules.

In orchestral writing, this coherence is not a given - in fact, it's a big challenge. That's because (a) you don't have equal number of voices (i.e. instruments) and (b) they are not coherent sonically apart from strings and (c) you have a vastly larger range in an orchestra that has to be filled.

These nuances force some changes in orchestral writing. First, you separate the melody and treat it as a unit of its own. This means of course doubling with various instruments, both to find the right sound and to get the needed volume balance. But even more importantly - you also write counter melody against that melody alone (using only the overall harmony as the framework, not the voices - and even that only if you want it and depending on the style). These filler melodies are independent from the original voice leading in that passage.

Second, you take the remaining voices and check if you want to revise your voice leading now that you have 1 voice "less" so to speak and therefore an extra motion type available. From here, the view shifts to seeing them as succession of fixed chords to be orchestrated. The goal is to get the chord to sound not only well blended but also sonically appropriate for the style and the given section in the unfolding piece. At this stage, you will frequently be in a situation where you can get better sound if you change the voices in that chord. Most orchestration books say not to do that and instead fix the sound using other means. Of course that will affect other parts of texture and so it goes on and on.

Orchestrating chords is a major area that can become very complex. It can range from the simple "transcribing" type approach to highly unusual decisions (e.g. Liszt replacing an entire chord from a repeated progression with a single triangle hit that we still perceive as a chord). And some modern composers have written a whole new sequence of properly voiced chords just for that countermelody I mentioned earlier and then repeated the entire orchestration process for them - to get to extremely dense passages that seemingly make no sense for voice leading at first blush, even in piano reductions.

Finally, I don't know if it helps, but I once followed @ed buller thread on orchestration books and bought Joseph Wagner's handbook from 1959 for $5 on amazon (it's available free online). The beautiful thing about this book is its concept - orchestration approach for composers who write on the piano. It's brilliant.


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## Bollen (Dec 8, 2021)

There's little I can contribute to what has already been said, but I can give you some good news: first, 99.9% of books on harmony and orchestration were written before computers and sample libraries were around. They were meant as advice based on practice and experience so that you could make the least amount of mistakes on paper, before you heard it played by a real ensemble. Second, it's the 21st century and all rules have been broken! There's literally nothing you can write that will violate any rules of music as it stands today. Just use your ears.

Study a couple of books on counterpoint from different eras (try for example Fux and Shoenberg's), it will do wonders to your sense of polyphony. You can then violate all the rules and write by ear, but your perception and voicing awarness will be much improved. Then do the same for voice leading (Shoenberg can also cover you here)! The point of studying music is not to learn rules, but to help your ears and detail awarness mature.

Then when you approach the orchestra, especially after reading orchestration books form cover to cover, you will just need your ears and musical taste. You can always then check your work with sample libraries.


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## gsilbers (Dec 8, 2021)

dwebs said:


> I am amazed at the lack of information on Orchestral Voice-Leading. I have searched everywhere for answers to this question but have never ever found any. Students are rigorously taught all the rules of chorale writing, and then thrown off a cliff when it comes to the orchestra. I read Adler and Piston cover to cover, and only found one Adler reference (in 640 pages) to voice leading, and it is for a for a Hayden String Quartet which hardly needs explanation. Piston maintains that orchestral writing (from Hayden to Brahms, and even Wagner) is generally governed by the same "common practice" guidelines, and that timbral considerations are subordinate to textural considerations (i.e., voice-leading). But then he confuses us again by adding ... textural complexities are due to doubling, tone weight, octave placement, and idiomatic instrument writing.
> 
> Also, If voice leading rules are to be generally observed, are the guidelines to be followed by an individual instrument, instrument choir, or the entire orchestra ???
> 
> ...


Maybe in more film scoring side but this book is interesting in that sense 



And that spud murphys EIS (Equal Interval System) kinda deals with this in general since its horizontal writing. There is a forum sub seciton here about it. ITs seeing it from another perspective instead of the common classical teachings. The aim is film style where there are a ton of changes in harmony to deal with film edits/cuts/moods so seeing voice leading via EIS does help (i think).


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## Dave Connor (Dec 8, 2021)

It’s probably due to the fact that voice leading isn’t instrument dependent (for the most part) that you don’t find it uniquely emphasized in that context. Instrument _range_ may occasionally be a factor but that’s only when the range _prevents_ an instrument from carrying out standard, good practices of voice leading.

Which is to say that in traditional music education, by the time one gets to the step of learning how to orchestrate, knowledge of voice leading is _assumed_ to have already been learned - now only needing to be applied. This is why you generally don’t hear terms such as _Orchestral Harmony,
or Orchestral Counterpoint _since those two pillars refer to disciplines that can be presented by any number of solo or instrumental combinations completely apart from the orchestra.


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## Romy Schmidt (Dec 9, 2021)

I understand what you mean. Voice-leading is very important. It makes your music sound better and more professional. Btw, voice-leading is not the same as counterpoint. You don't need counterpoint if you write homophonic music, but you can't do without voice-leading.

I don't know any books about voice-leading in orchestral music and if I would, they would be in Dutch, so that's not really helping. Sorry.


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## Bollen (Dec 9, 2021)

I get the impression people don't really read other people's posts...


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## Dave Connor (Dec 9, 2021)

Bollen said:


> I get the impression people don't really read other people's posts...


I read the all the responses above and thought they were very good. I really did a summation of them with some additional information.


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## JohnG (Dec 9, 2021)

Well...

I don't think there's a rulebook that is going to be foolproof. It depends so much on the skill of the players, just for starters.

*Safe*

I think you can see that most people still pay attention to the old school "Bach chorale" rules. I think those apply pretty well for woodwinds and brass, and of course for choir. Plus, you have to have rests for them to breathe, obviously.

However, even back in the Olden Days, you see enormous skips / octave leaps all over the string writing. Not always, of course, but we were just performing Handel's "Messiah" and the strings are performing gymnastics that you wouldn't see in a typical university chorale-arranging assignment.

*Pros, and "Real Pros"*

It also depends on what level the players are. If you write something with lots of leaps and skips, playing at the very highest or very lowest registers for wind instruments, you're going to do a lot better if you're in Los Angeles or London or some other place that has fantastic players. Even in the best locations (major cities) the level of professional players can vary enough to make a difference. The difference between the A-plus level and B-plus is most noticeable in tuning / intonation. If you want that amazing sound, it's best to have the best.

If, by contrast, you are writing for a university / semi-amateur orchestra, you'll want to restrict your ranges and the difficulty of the parts.


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## jsaras (Dec 9, 2021)

At the risk of sounding like an informercial, The Equal Interval System has extremely specific answers to this, and it's the basis of most of the course.


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## dwebs (Dec 9, 2021)

Thank you all for taking the time to share your thoughts. They all have value to me, and I can learn from all of them. Even if some are not what I was expecting, they are useful to me for other issues
I am checking into them for additional information. 
dwebs


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## Bollen (Dec 9, 2021)

Dave Connor said:


> I read the all the responses above and thought they were very good. I really did a summation of them with some additional information.


No, no I didn't mean you, I particularly appreciated your contribution: "voice leading isn’t instrument dependent".


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## marclawsonmusic (Dec 10, 2021)

In your research, consider ScoreClub - https://scoreclub.net/

The 'Orchestrating the Line' series is all about this topic - not just voice-leading, but how to build a 'main sound' with the orchestra using correct voice leading techniques.


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## dwebs (Dec 10, 2021)

Thank you Marclawsommus for recommending Score Club and especially "Orchestrating The Line". This is the "How To" answer to the great recommendations made by Youngpokie. I watched the three free "Orchestrating The Line" videos, and they are exactly what i was looking for, but did not know how to word the question. My whole approach needs to be changed to this kind of thinking. So ... I will join Score Club in the next few days and proceed along these lines.
Again ... thank you both, so very much, for redirecting my compositional thinking and approach ... an enormous gift.
dwebs


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## dwebs (Dec 10, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> EDIT: The short answer why you don't see orchestral voice leading in orchestration books is because they focus on how notes are assigned to instruments. The (reasonable) assumption is that the composition and voice leading is done as a separate step prior to starting with orchestration. The longish answer in the sense of how it might work in practice follows.===
> 
> It's important to see the different context of chorale vs orchestra. In chorale writing, all voices are treated as a coherent polyphonic unit. They blend together sonically. The melody and the bass are inseparable components of that unit, without which it makes no sense. As a result, voice leading is applied to the unit as a whole, and consistency is demanded and enforced by rules.
> 
> ...


Thank you so very much, Youngpokie, for these guidelines, which redirected my thinking. Following is a message i sent to Marclawsommus

Thank you Marclawsommus for recommending Score Club and especially "Orchestrating The Line". This is the "How To" answer to the great recommendations made by Youngpokie. I watched the three free "Orchestrating The Line" videos, and they are exactly what i was looking for, but did not know how to word the question. My whole approach needs to be changed to this kind of thinking. So ... I will join Score Club in the next few days and proceed along these lines.
Again ... thank you both, so very much, for redirecting my compositional thinking and approach ... an enormous gift
dwebs


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## Living Fossil (Dec 11, 2021)

dwebs said:


> I am amazed at the lack of information on Orchestral Voice-Leading. I have searched everywhere for answers to this question but have never ever found any.


There are indeed aspects of voice leading in the orchestra that are sometimes overlooked a bit.
Unfortunately for young composers, these are often the most interesting things and usually they deal with voice leading that doesn't stick exactly to rigid rules.

In my experience, the best thing is to carefully study different scores from the masters.

While there are countless interesting things, let me just pick 2 things.

The first one are brass chords that in part have a chorale-like (i.e. "regular" 4-voice) texture, but don't stick to it very consequently. 
These are e.g. horn textures where the 4 voice setup is abandoned in places because at a point one instruments plays in octave with another one.
Or chords in which melodic lines are not given to one instrument but to the one that is in that range.
There are countless examples for such things, scores from Bruckner, Tchaikovsky, Elgar etc. etc. could be interesting starting points

the second one is the fact that instrumentation relies a lot on the culture of writing interesting textures.
Again, it's an endless field.
You can look at scores from e.g. Wagner and look how he modifies the color of harmonic constellations by adding fast chromatic passing tones (in fast supporting lines).
Or at scores from e.g. Ravel and look how he works with fast figurations in woodwinds.
Or you could study supporting lines in scores from Brahms that go beyond "standard" voice leading.

TLDR: The most comprehensive source for knowledge about interesting voice leading are the scores from the masters. The important thing is to keep an open eye on all the details that are hidden there.


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## NukillerMedia (Dec 12, 2021)

NoamL said:


> This is kind of a generalization, but if your orchestral piece can't be reduced to a 4-hands piano arrangement, your piece is likely to have arranging/orchestration problems. I mean there is a 4-hands piano arrangement of the entire Rite of Spring.
> 
> So when you're looking at an orchestral score, the idea is to try to perceive the reduction to a piano score (or to see the orchestration as an explosion of a piano piece). As much as possible. All of this is to say that the "rules" / principles of voice leading don't change when you go from the piano the orchestra.


Bingo, 

when you learn to orchestrate, you often do score reading and play all the parts on a piano as one particular exercise. People will wonder how can someone sight read orchestral scores , do all the transposition in real time. It’s hard but not as hard as people think. you know how things resolve and that it pretty much comes down to the fact pre modern orchestral music is just 4 part writing. One melody, one bass, and filler. 

voice Leading is probably less important when dealing with orchestras in that the rules are less strict To sound like that era. In fact almost every rules other than the obvious ones that are easily heard kinda no longer matter. 

voice leading boils down do parsimony. tonal Music has expectations that most listeners can discern when met or not. A good musician doesn’t need to learn it to know it. In fact the rules you learn in school are incredibly simple. there is not really that much one can say on it. The rest is just what is acceptable for period you are emulating. 

i think you would be better off developing your ear than trying to find some guide that is not needed. the only real hard stuff is actual instrument characteristics that might influence the way its melody will not work But that Is more of an orchestrating issue.


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