# Music Library Submissions-an industry secret?



## EvanArnett

None of the music library web sites I have visited seem to contain information for composers about how to actually submit music for consideration. I have read that the larger libraries are only looking for music in a style that fits an upcoming "themed album" for example, "Bright Ukelele Pop" or "Extreme Sports Rock". I even called the office of a library to ask, and was basically treated like a soliciter. 

How do I find specific information about submitting to libraries, and what they are actually looking for?


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## gsilbers

those big libraries just want content. the more they have the better. so you can just send an email to the contact info and send them a link to your work.
pretty much content aggregators.
for more exclusive libraries, its about relationships. you get to know them from networking or friend of a friend.
a lot of these prefer exclusive rather than non exclusive. but there is everything in between.
music library report has info on each library.


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## Baron Greuner

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## Daryl

EvanArnett said:


> I even called the office of a library to ask, and was basically treated like a soliciter.


Well, basically that's what you are. You are cold calling looking for business. Don't be offended.

Just remember that any good library will have hundreds of would be composers hassling them every day, so even applying to be considered is not easy. However, there are libraries that tell you where to send your submissions to, so I would start with those. Once you have a track record it is much easier to deal with the big guys.


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## EvanArnett

Greg: I saw Music Library Report, but it seems to contain names, links and reviews of music library companies, and not specific demo submission information. I assume I just need to scour the web site links for submission info or else send an email with my music to the generic contact address? 

Baron: I think I understand what you are saying. If a library seems to accept anything, and has a lot of music that sounds dated or of questionable quality, it's best avoided because you'll get less placement out of it, correct? So then, assuming I don't have a "friend of a friend" at a music library, should I still send unsolicited demos to the general contact email address of "decent" libraries?


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## EvanArnett

Daryl said:


> Well, basically that's what you are. You are cold calling looking for business. Don't be offended.
> 
> Just remember that any good library will have hundreds of would be composers hassling them every day, so even applying to be considered is not easy. However, there are libraries that tell you where to send your submissions to, so I would start with those. Once you have a track record it is much easier to deal with the big guys.



No, no I wasn't offended, more...surprised? The lady on the phone didn't seem to even know what I was talking about, and, as you say, they must be inundated with composers wanting to submit their music.

Developing a track record with a smaller, more open library to work your way up from makes sense, but I'm not sure I understand how this works in practice. Is it that someone from a larger and more prestigious library will reach out to you after having seen your name somewhere? Or maybe they will be more likely to pay attention to your unsolicited demo if you can say you've had music placed on prime time tv?


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## Daryl

Yes, once you have a good rep it is much easier to blag with a better company. If you can bring in earnings of £100K a year, they will be really happy to get you in their library. If, however, it is £5K, you are not worth their time. The quality of your music at this point doesn't' even matter.


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## Baron Greuner

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## doctornine

EvanArnett said:


> How do I find specific information about submitting to libraries, and what they are actually looking for?



If a website existed that made it that easy, we'd all be making buckets of money. If you want in exclusives, it's about building relationships with them. And yes, you're work in one library can attract attention from another, if it's good and they need that style, and the wind is in the right direction 

If you want in non-ex RF, find a website, click submit.


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## Dean

EvanArnett said:


> None of the music library web sites I have visited seem to contain information for composers about how to actually submit music for consideration. I have read that the larger libraries are only looking for music in a style that fits an upcoming "themed album" for example, "Bright Ukelele Pop" or "Extreme Sports Rock". I even called the office of a library to ask, and was basically treated like a soliciter.
> 
> How do I find specific information about submitting to libraries, and what they are actually looking for?



I know nada about music libraries/catalogues,...
If you're looking to break into trailer music my advice is first compose the best trailer cues of your life,(dont go near them unless you know your tracks are up to par, ask for critiques,get advice/feedback on your music from guys in the business.) Then email a bunch of trailer houses with a few (incredible)tracks and wait for a bite,.. (if your music is good enough you'll get a reply eventually.) Work your ass off with one or more of these companies composing tracks for them,if the tracks are good enough they will start to pitch your tracks for film/tv trailers. Eventually you might land one then its up to you to keep upping your game,..you land another,..maybe with them,maybe with another company,more than one,..tv spots etc,..you keep going and honing your sound,building a catalogue,..your tracks if thyre strong enough will stat to get noticed on Youtube and SoundCloud by fans/clients,..its a slow burner (no short cuts) but eventually you can start setting your sites higher as you get better and better,..then you land a big fish and keep pushing and pushing from there.
(financially it can take 2 years or more to get things moving so alwasy have another form of income,..its a very long haul.)

D


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## Baron Greuner

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## gsilbers

another way is to be around these types of forums and have your info below your posts. so if you ask questions like this or strike a nice chat with someone they might be able to offer you a hand and give you a link of a library that might be open to submissions.


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## Carles

EvanArnett said:


> So then, assuming I don't have a "friend of a friend" at a music library, should I still send unsolicited demos to the general contact email address of "decent" libraries?



In my experience that's a waste of time. None of the decent libraries I've submitted (theoretically accepting submissions) have ever had a listen (playlist counter=0) so is not about if they liked your music or not, just hasn't been listened at all, so they can hardly evaluate if worth for them or not. At that point no matter the quality of your tracks because they are systematically ignored. I guess that the 'friend of a friend' can make a difference but not always. On two of the libraries I've submitted I was recommended by "a friend of a friend" and still, counter=0 (never listened).

In my case, for a short term plan (i.e. what to do with my existing tracks) it seems that I have no options other than go to non-exclusive libraries (hanging your tracks on a small exclusive is possibly condemning your tracks to gather dust forever) being these typically RF ones.
But realize that from the NE not all of them are cheap RF libraries with no back end.

I think the term "royalty free" is actually very confusing (perhaps intentionally to attract customers).

As far as I understand (and please fix me if I'm wrong) it refers mostly to buying the -sync- fee at a fixed cheaper rate, but the broadcaster (not the client) still have to pay performance royalties, thus apart of the few bucks share from the client, you can also make some back end monies.
Some of these libraries manage the cue sheets themselves (as with the exclusive ones) so they can grab their publishers share and you your writer share.
Actually no much difference compared to a small exclusive but you can increase the probability to get placements by using several NE simultaneously.

Other RF libraries instead are indecently too cheap, and some of them even forgive to upload music if registered with a PRO! That's actually RF in all senses, (although it's unclear to me how they can skip paying performance royalties... I guess their market is very specific). So I'll better keep away from those.


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## Vin

doctornine said:


> If a website existed that made it that easy, we'd all be making buckets of money. If you want in exclusives, it's about building relationships with them. And yes, you're work in one library can attract attention from another, if it's good and they need that style, and the wind is in the right direction
> 
> If you want in non-ex RF, find a website, click submit.



This.

If you're a complete beginner, I'd suggest getting Emmett Cooke's eBook. Music Library Report...not a big fan of the pay-to-view forums, it's all there on Google.

However, it's all about experimenting and trying different things, you have to find by yourself. Work hard, introduce yourself and be nice. Write the best music that you can, do your research extensively and have patience. Lots of it, because it's a really slow game.


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## Jerome Vonhogen

I have to say that threads like this always make me feel sad. So many composers seem so desperate to get the attention of libraries nowadays, and no one wants to be the bearer of the bad news that there just isn't enough work for everyone.

Successful composers usually have more qualities than just their musical talent. They are successful entrepeneurs as well.

Let me put it this way, if you manage to break into the (film-)music industry anyway in this day and age, you'd probably succeed in many other (more profitable) industries as well. Success in the business would only mean a partial recognition of your musical talent, because it's about much more than just the music.

Sadly, those who fail to break into the music business often lose confidence. And if they have a partner, husband or wife, (social) pressure quickly builds up to the point that relationships start to suffer from it. You may be able to adjust your personal expectations, but your partner, family, and friends will often see this as 'lowering expectations' (symptoms: people start saying things like "I told you so").

If there are financial dependencies in the family or within a relationship, everyone will become frustrated and the composer will start to feel bad about himself. If he or she is in denial about the situation, things will become even more tense. One day, the composer will give up his dream and sell all his gear and instruments, only to learn the inconvenient truth that he's now too old to build a successful career outside the music industry.

This is why I would advise every aspiring composer to save money before starting a musical career, and to make a safe plan B in case their expectations aren't met. Whatever you do, never accept any financial support from your loved ones!

By the way, this is just an observation, not a testimony. I wouldn't even try to make a living just by writing and selling music. It's way too risky, no matter how good you think you are.

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## Johnny4Lonnie

EvanArnett said:


> None of the music library web sites I have visited seem to contain information for composers about how to actually submit music for consideration. I have read that the larger libraries are only looking for music in a style that fits an upcoming "themed album" for example, "Bright Ukelele Pop" or "Extreme Sports Rock". I even called the office of a library to ask, and was basically treated like a soliciter.
> 
> How do I find specific information about submitting to libraries, and what they are actually looking for?



The benchmark for libraries that I use is Crucial Music. They're non-exclusive and they get a lot of good placements for TV, film, good synch fees and they file for PRO royalties correctly. It's easy to submit on line with them but you do have to wait awhile for accept/reject notice. They are very selective and pitch to specific opportunities. If my song gets selected or rejected by CM, that kind of dictates which direction I go with it after that. 

I don't think you have much to lose giving them a shot, being that they are non-exclusive you can still pitch your stuff in other ways. And you're not succumbing to the RF world either, with all of the saturation others have pointed out.

The big caveat I would add is, I approach everything from an artist point of view, not a composer point of view. I do songs, not cues or scoring. That's stuff's over my head! Here's my song, please accept it and pitch for a specific need, usually for source music. I don't know how they work for composers. Again though, they are very selective so whatever you send has to be your best work. I think they're rejection rate is something like 95%


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## Dean

(this post makes me sad  )



Jerome Vonhogen said:


> I have to say that threads like this always make me feel sad. So many composers seem so desperate to get the attention of libraries nowadays, and no one wants to be the bearer of the bad news that there just isn't enough work for everyone.


 They're just looking for a way in.If you're good enough and make your own luck theres always work! Noyone has to be the bearer of bad news,people need to make their own mistakes



Jerome Vonhogen said:


> Sadly, those who fail to break into the music business often lose confidence. And if they have a partner, husband or wife, (social) pressure quickly builds up to the point that relationships start to suffer from it.



Agreed,all of this applies to anyone starting up any business venture or working for themselves 'chasing that dream'.But I think not trying at all would be a worse fate for an aspiring musician/composer/artist?



Jerome Vonhogen said:


> You may be able to adjust your personal expectations, but your partner, family, and friends will often see this as 'lowering expectations' (symptoms: people start saying things like "I told you so").



I think criticism like that says more about the people(friends/family) giving it than the person its about.



Jerome Vonhogen said:


> If there are financial dependencies in the family or within a relationship, everyone will become frustrated and the composer will start to feel bad about himself. If he or she is in denial about the situation, things will become even more tense. One day, the composer will give up his dream and sell all his gear and instruments, only to learn the inconvenient truth that he's now too old to build a successful career outside the music industry.



Yikes,..I know plenty of people and friends who were all pro /amatuer musicians at one stage,practically none of them 'made it' but all have good jobs,(some great) new directions,wives,children some do cover gigs,teaching etc..but it was not the end of their world. There are always some who really suffer,never give up or never come to terms with failing but that has nothing to do with music thats their personality/mindset.



Jerome Vonhogen said:


> This is why I would advise every aspiring composer to save money before starting a musical career, and to make a safe plan B in case their expectations aren't met. Whatever you do, never accept any financial support from your loved ones!



I agree with the first part (about money) I disagree with the last part,..I borrowed start up money (parents) to buy gear for my first major gig (tv animation series)This was after a period of having no music work and almost selling my piano,..I could'nt have done the gig without it and payed it all back (eventually  )



Jerome Vonhogen said:


> By the way, this is just an observation, not a testimony. I wouldn't even try to make a living just by writing and selling music. It's way too risky, no matter how good you think you are.
> - Jerome Vonhögen



Agreed,..theres a risk of failure in every business venture,.but at some stage you have to take the leap or give up and do something else instead.I dont believe its possible to maintain both a steady income from a job and go 'all in' (so to speak)

Dean


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## Carles

Dean said:


> They're just looking for a way in.If you're good enough and make your own luck theres always work! Noyone has to be the bearer of bad news,people need to make their own mistakes


Exactly. Music business is not the only saturated market, people has to struggle to get into any 'cool' job.
Just 10-15 years ago, working in the animation/VFX industry was a dream. Artists where highly respected and really (really, really) well paid. Who in those days had the necessary talent, and mostly the technical knowledge to get into any big studios? no many.
Now that people that did enjoy the glorious days (mostly north american) have to witness the fall of that empire, and bounce from USA to Canada to Singapore, etc. for a quite regular salary (many of them just left the industry). There are hordes of talented young artists willing to work for free in order to get their name in credits. Indeed the scenario is very different, but it doesn't mean that there is no job, Dean's sentence 'If you're good enough and make your own luck there is always work' is also applicable there. The only way to know if there is room for you or not is giving a try.

In my specific case, I don't need to find a job, I've got a successful one already but what can I say, I love music, I didn't choose that, just can't avoid loving it, and I'd be willing to leave my (no bad at all) salary and conditions for doing something that I love more as far as I could just pay the bills.

I know that most likely I'll give up in less than a year when figures will reveal that I could need too many years to make it, but I have to at least give it a try first. If minimally promising I'll stick around for a while. If I've managed to get in one of the best VFX studios in the planet, why it has to be impossible to get into music making a mere third or forth my current salary, is that asking that much? really music business sucks so deeply? Perhaps tiny, but it has to be a window somewhere.

Happiness and success not always goes together. As a friend of mine uses to say (paragraphing a video console campaign) "life is short... play more" and what can I say, I like to play around with music.

Carles


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## Jerome Vonhogen

Dean said:


> (this post makes me sad  )
> 
> They're just looking for a way in.If you're good enough and make your own luck theres always work! Noyone has to be the bearer of bad news,people need to make their own mistakes
> 
> I still think its better to give it a really good go and fail than not to try at all.
> All of this applies to anyone starting up any business venture or working for themselves.
> 
> To be honest criticism like that says more about the people(friends/family) giving it than the person its about.
> 
> Yikes,..I know plenty of people and friends who were all pro /amatuer musicians at one stage,practically none of them 'made it' but all have good jobs,(some great) new directions,wives,children some do cover gigs,teaching etc..but it was not the end of their world. There are always some who really suffer,never give up or never come to terms and usually never had a chance in the first place but that has nothing to do with music thats their personality/mindset (deluded)
> 
> I agree with the first part,if possible.I disagree with the last part,..I borrowed start up money (parents) to buy gear for my first major gig (tv animation series)This was after a period of having no music work and almost selling my piano,..I could'nt have done the gig without it and payed it all back (eventually  )
> 
> Agreed,..theres a risk of failure in every business venture,.but at some stage you have to take the leap or give up and do something else instead. I dont believe its possible to maintain both a steady income from a job and go 'all in' (so to speak)
> 
> Dean


 

Thanks for your post, Dean. I like your optimism, because I'm an optimist myself.

Unfortunately, I've seen a lot of broken dreams around me, so I guess most of what I wrote in my last post reflects my own subconscious fear of faillure. 

As for the support by family and friends, if it's based on more than just money, it might actually be a positive thing. However, since I care so much about my family and friends, I would never risk getting into awkward situations because of some startup money that I could as well have saved for. I don't think it's wise to put so much pressure on yourself and your relationships at the onset of a musical career, since you're venturing into a new and unknown world (though not really 'untrodden' territory).

It's of course a different situation if you're asking for help when there is a concrete opportunity that could kickstart your career. That's just an investment opportunity, while the situation I'm referring to is more like asking for a donation, with no guarantees whatsoever that there will be any financial return.



Dean said:


> I dont believe its possible to maintain both a steady income from a job and go 'all in' (so to speak)


 

Unless you start a production studio which enables you to hire yourself for all sorts of interesting projects. That's what I'm doing right now. 

Which makes me wonder, if you can't make it into a library but you still believe that your music is valuable, why wouldn't you just start your own library?

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## dannymc

> The big caveat I would add is, I approach everything from an artist point of view, not a composer point of view. I do songs, not cues or scoring. That's stuff's over my head! Here's my song, please accept it and pitch for a specific need, usually for source music. I don't know how they work for composers. Again though, they are very selective so whatever you send has to be your best work. I think they're rejection rate is something like 95%



when you say songs do you mean like vocal music? or do they accept instrumental/orchestral songs too? if not is there any other music libraries similar to their standard that focus more on film music? big neewbie to this game so haven't a clue where to start other than the low tier RF libraries which dont sound very appealing.

Danny


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## tiago

Johnny4Lonnie said:


> The benchmark for libraries that I use is Crucial Music. They're non-exclusive and they get a lot of good placements for TV, film, good synch fees and they file for PRO royalties correctly. It's easy to submit on line with them but you do have to wait awhile for accept/reject notice. They are very selective and pitch to specific opportunities. If my song gets selected or rejected by CM, that kind of dictates which direction I go with it after that.



Hi Johnny! I thought it was interesting the fact that you've mentioned Crucial Music, as I've just very recently been doing some research on them, and it really seems to be a very good library. If I may ask, do you know if they accept tracks that are registered with Youtube Content ID (such as Adrev)? Cheers!


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## Johnny4Lonnie

tiago said:


> Hi Johnny! I thought it was interesting the fact that you've mentioned Crucial Music, as I've just very recently been doing some research on them, and it really seems to be a very good library. If I may ask, do you know if they accept tracks that are registered with Youtube Content ID (such as Adrev)? Cheers!



Hi Tiago, I don't know about Adrev with them, that's a good question. I know they have some restrictions if you have an exclusive publishing agreement, or if you use union musicians. Good luck!


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## Johnny4Lonnie

dannymc said:


> when you say songs do you mean like vocal music? or do they accept instrumental/orchestral songs too? if not is there any other music libraries similar to their standard that focus more on film music? big neewbie to this game so haven't a clue where to start other than the low tier RF libraries which dont sound very appealing.
> 
> Danny



My songs with them all have vocals, but they have at times placed instrumental versions of those. I know they do accept orchestral, cinematic, trailer, epic, etc. I don't play in thoise genres but I think they get a fair amount of placements for those styles as well. They seem to be equally geared towards bands and performance artists as they are composers. Maybe more so.

You should check out Music Library Report, as has been mentioned on this forum. It is a pay service site and nobody likes to "pay to play" but it is one I would consider if you really want to get ideas on libraries and are trying to stay in for the long haul. Definitely a better investment IMO than Sonicbids, Broadjam, Taxi, and the like. They are pretty thorough identifying RF, performance free, exclusive, etc and you can filter all that stuff out in searches. As I have seen mentioned here many times, if you are a true "composer type" (orchestral, scores, etc) libraries probably suck compared to film scoring and work for hire. But it's a start pointing I guess


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## dannymc

yes need to start somewhere so thanks for the heads up Johnny 

Danny


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## Jerome Vonhogen

Johnny4Lonnie said:


> You should check out Music Library Report, as has been mentioned on this forum. It is a pay service site and nobody likes to "pay to play" but it is one I would consider if you really want to get ideas on libraries and are trying to stay in for the long haul. Definitely a better investment IMO than Sonicbids, Broadjam, Taxi, and the like.


 

What about Taxi? Did you have a bad experience with them? I thought they were the place-to-go for song writers.

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## Johnny4Lonnie

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> What about Taxi? Did you have a bad experience with them? I thought they were the place-to-go for song writers.
> 
> - Jerome Vonhögen



Taxi has a decent rep and they have been around for awhile. And they are pretty upfront about what they do and what you should expect. But their model is not strong IMO as far as getting in for licensing opportunities. Maybe they work better for bands and artists looking for a record deal or management; or for non-performing songwriters trying to get hooked up with A&R reps to pitch their songs to other artists. 

As far as licensing goes, you pay an annual fee (I think its about $400/year) and then you pitch your songs to their briefs for $5 a pop. First step is, the Taxi reps decide if your song is worthy to be moved up the chain. If so, then they send your songs and multiple others to the next decision maker, which can be a music sup, producer, publisher,or a music library. And then they decide from there. My impression after going through a year with them - if it is for a TV or film license, it is usually a library they are working with. If it is a record deal or such, it is an A&R rep or someone pitching to an A&R rep.

Like a lot of other things, the expansion of the internet and the licensing market has made their model obsolete. 5-10 years ago the whole thing was more of a mystery and you needed to jump on their "Taxi" to give you a ride to people you couldn't get to otherwise.

Of course all of this is just my two cents. Like Marvin Gaye said, believe half of what you see and none of what you read on the internet


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## dannymc

having to pay any service just to get your music heard does not sit well with me. surely if your music is good enough firstly it will eventually find a home with the right networking and a little bit of luck. 

Danny


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## Baron Greuner

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## Daryl

Baron Greuner said:


> I mean, good music to me is Bach for example. You certainly don't need to be Bach when you write library music. In fact, if you do, it will probably harm your chances.


Yeah I can't say that I've made a fortune from this

http://www.westonemusic.com/results/tracks/tid_9128455b86e20a6f


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## EvanArnett

I don't want to put words in Danny's mouth, but when I think of "good music" in context of being a professional composer for media, I don't mean "artful" or "complex", but good in a more practical sense, that is, generally well-crafted and suitable for its purpose.


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## Baron Greuner

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## Dean

Baron Greuner said:


> If your music is good enough?
> 
> That's a tricky concept when talking about library music submissions. 'Good enough' doesn't really mean anything to the owners or whoemsoever makes the decision on a library, whether to accept a submission or not.
> There seems to be a train of thought here, that there is somehow someone out there that has an objective all seeing, all hearing view that writes what constitutes the meaning of 'good enough' on a tablet of stone.
> What they are mostly looking for is music that can be used in a media context, that sounds alright and is mixed and mastered well, and that they don't already have covered a thousand times.
> They want different, but not necessarily original.
> When people talk about good music, this really has no meaning in terms of library underscoring for the most part. This also, but on a lesser scale, applies to films today. Just listen to most of it and take notes. I know writers who are brilliant: best selling tracks are crappy Christmas tracks that maybe took them 45 minutes to write and longer to mix and master.
> Get away from this idea that everything is sweeping romantic strings and John Williams melody lines.
> 
> I mean, good music to me is Bach for example. You certainly don't need to be Bach when you write library music. In fact, if you do, it will probably harm your chances.
> 
> Take my word for all of the above.



'good enough' in this context means,..suits the library,..fit for purpose re tone / execution / production / mix / cohesive etc, and not poorly written / poorly mixed/messed up,dissonant tracks that make no sense.

If I say 'good enough' or 'incredible' (  ) Im speaking personally from experience and only in relation to a certain client and/or genre. D


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## dannymc

well yes of course good is a relative term. if you find a music library that signs and host the best hip hop composers in the world then you better be able to make the best dam hip hop music they've ever heard before, both from a marketable sense and just how well that people responds to it. something unique. i dont write for libraries yet so no idea what they look for but i'd imagine there is a library for just about every genre and style so i'm guessing you need to try make better than what they have but also be unique in some way. 

i never went in for the whole "look at what i made, it sounds exactly like John Williams," whats the point. john Williams does what John Williams does whats the point in thousands of composers trying to emulate what he does. i could never understand this anyway because to me music is your inner voice, your own expression. since we are all individual and unique we should all sound different musically. if we are truly writing as expression and not because we want to sound like our favorite film composers. yes of course you will be influenced by those composers who came before, even Bach would of been influenced by previous composers, but after that i think you should just aim to express yourself and find your own voice. after that i guess its a case of finding your audience. 

Danny


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## Baron Greuner

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## Dean

Baron Greuner said:


> Well of course it goes without saying that your trailers are incredible Dean. I only said to Baroness Greuner the other evening - come and listen to Dean's trailer music my dear; it's utterly incredible!



Thats a relief,I'd hate to think of you haunting that big castle all on your own. D


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## Michael Rajecki

On the topic of 'good' music for libraries, I've got a question. I can write music - post production, not so much but I'm getting there. I can write songs that I find artistically fulfilling, that I think are fun to listen to, but I'm not as good about writing songs that can be licensed via libraries i.e. corporate tracks. Now, I can jump on to AudioJungle or MusicDealers and copy some of the formats there (Lord knows that AJ has enough corporate tracks) but there's still a disconnect there. I write songs structured in a similar style but that doesn't mean I really know how to write tracks that are useful commercially... how do I get better with this?

I suspect that many of the tried-and-true library composers will respond with "nobody really knows which tracks will work well" and I totally get that, but what can I do to start creating things that are in the right direction? Is it really just a matter of trial and error combined with lots of practice, or is there anything else that can help me moving forward with writing viable commercial tracks?


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## gsilbers

Michael Rajecki said:


> On the topic of 'good' music for libraries, I've got a question. I can write music - post production, not so much but I'm getting there. I can write songs that I find artistically fulfilling, that I think are fun to listen to, but I'm not as good about writing songs that can be licensed via libraries i.e. corporate tracks. Now, I can jump on to AudioJungle or MusicDealers and copy some of the formats there (Lord knows that AJ has enough corporate tracks) but there's still a disconnect there. I write songs structured in a similar style but that doesn't mean I really know how to write tracks that are useful commercially... how do I get better with this?
> 
> I suspect that many of the tried-and-true library composers will respond with "nobody really knows which tracks will work well" and I totally get that, but what can I do to start creating things that are in the right direction? Is it really just a matter of trial and error combined with lots of practice, or is there anything else that can help me moving forward with writing viable commercial tracks?



just go to those libraries and check out their tracks. follow the form.


----------



## gsilbers

Baron Greuner said:


> If your music is good enough?
> 
> That's a tricky concept when talking about library music submissions. 'Good enough' doesn't really mean anything to the owners or whoemsoever makes the decision on a library, whether to accept a submission or not.
> There seems to be a train of thought here, that there is somehow someone out there that has an objective all seeing, all hearing view that writes what constitutes the meaning of 'good enough' on a tablet of stone.
> What they are mostly looking for is music that can be used in a media context, that sounds alright and is mixed and mastered well, and that they don't already have covered a thousand times.
> They want different, but not necessarily original.
> When people talk about good music, this really has no meaning in terms of library underscoring for the most part. This also, but on a lesser scale, applies to films today. Just listen to most of it and take notes. I know writers who are brilliant: best selling tracks are crappy Christmas tracks that maybe took them 45 minutes to write and longer to mix and master.
> Get away from this idea that everything is sweeping romantic strings and John Williams melody lines.
> 
> I mean, good music to me is Bach for example. You certainly don't need to be Bach when you write library music. In fact, if you do, it will probably harm your chances.
> 
> Take my word for all of the above.



I agree but I would extend it to all music. there is no "good" or "bad" it works or it doesn't in its context. and in our society good also means how much it sold for. same for movies and any of what we consider "art".


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## dannymc

> I suspect that many of the tried-and-true library composers will respond with "nobody really knows which tracks will work well" and I totally get that, but what can I do to start creating things that are in the right direction? Is it really just a matter of trial and error combined with lots of practice, or is there anything else that can help me moving forward with writing viable commercial tracks?



but is this really what you want to spend the rest of your adult life doing? writing by trial & error corporate style cues that mean nothing to you? i have to say i really take my hat of to those people who can churn out music that has absolutely no meaning to them one way or another. i think the problem with writing in a style thats not you is that you eventually get found out or maybe you don't but you will never be as good as the guys who love that music and that's how they love to write. if i sat down to write a jazz track tomorrow i'd have no clue if i was even on the right track as i do not like that style of music, have no idea whats a good or bad jazz track. i couldn't think of anything more unfulfilling. find the music you love to listen too and that moved you then why not write in that style. follow the music not the money.

Danny


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## rJames

dannymc said:


> but is this really what you want to spend the rest of your adult life doing? writing by trial & error corporate style cues that mean nothing to you? i have to say i really take my hat of to those people who can churn out music that has absolutely no meaning to them one way or another. i think the problem with writing in a style thats not you is that you eventually get found out or maybe you don't but you will never be as good as the guys who love that music and that's how they love to write. if i sat down to write a jazz track tomorrow i'd have no clue if i was even on the right track as i do not like that style of music, have no idea whats a good or bad jazz track. i couldn't think of anything more unfulfilling. find the music you love to listen too and that moved you then why not write in that style. follow the music not the money.
> 
> Danny



Right. But what you love to write IS being used in media somewhere. Find it. Then LISTEN to it. See HOW it is used. Try to understand WHY the editor chose that piece. WHAT part did the editor use? Like any profession, you must always study. Continuing education is a must.
Be very discriminating. Crap is being used. But that is more like luck. Connections, price, payola... Base your target on what you love AND what is being used because of its quality. Don't listen to the music behind your local car dealership commercial and think you can get away with that.
Find your bliss and then tailor it to sell.


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## chillbot

dannymc said:


> but is this really what you want to spend the rest of your adult life doing? writing by trial & error corporate style cues that mean nothing to you? i have to say i really take my hat of to those people who can churn out music that has absolutely no meaning to them one way or another. i think the problem with writing in a style thats not you is that you eventually get found out or maybe you don't but you will never be as good as the guys who love that music and that's how they love to write. if i sat down to write a jazz track tomorrow i'd have no clue if i was even on the right track as i do not like that style of music, have no idea whats a good or bad jazz track. i couldn't think of anything more unfulfilling. find the music you love to listen too and that moved you then why not write in that style. follow the music not the money.



In TV, there is virtually no such thing as a jazz track. I don't know what to call it other than "hybrid", everything for TV is a hybrid of something. I write "jazz" I write "country" I write "hip hop" but I couldn't create a straight up jazz or country or hip hop track to save my life. It's a hybrid jazz track tailored for television, it doesn't have to be so authentic as to blow away the jazz cats. You're not going to have a burning solo (unless it's a source track, that's different) because it would get in the way of the video. Sorry I can't describe it better, I'd probably have to write a book. But the guys I know that do well in libraries and television are the guys that are writing "TV" tracks.


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## chillbot

Oh and I forgot to add... it's really FUN (for me) to write in a bunch of different styles, even if I am essentially faking it... or as I like to call it, writing in "TV" style. Maybe it's not for everyone.


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## Dean

gsilbers said:


> I agree but I would extend it to all music. there is no "good" or "bad" it works or it doesn't in its context. and in our society good also means how much it sold for. same for movies and any of what we consider "art".



Agreed,..In this context 'good' means just that,..'it works',...the production / mix / execution,..Anything else is personal opinion,bias,..(I can only speak about movie trailer cues in particular.) its totally subjective.Trailer music in particular is like Marmite,..people love it or hate it.  D


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## D.Salzenberg

Hey Dean, the usual Mahler, Stravinsky and JW fanboys will soon be on this thread to tell us all yet again that their favourites are objectively good, whilst epic music and trailer music are bad!


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## Carles

D.Salzenberg said:


> Hey Dean, the usual Mahler, Stravinsky and JW fanboys will soon be on this thread to tell us all yet again that their favourites are objectively good, whilst epic music and trailer music are bad!


Not necessarily. In my opinion is not comparable music thus is absurd to tell this is better than that.

I do listen listen classical not because I'm a "fanboy" of any particular composer, but because its high cultural value as it demonstrates the most -intellectual- side of music, which has usually nothing to do with popularity. Let's say that the success of classical happen in a different level, usually (and notice "usually") is not popular but can acquire eternal recognizement (if actually deserved) based on its intellectual contribution.

Popularity is another thing., usually as simpler the harmony is, the bigger the probability to become popular (no doubt to me that even in the early renaissance you can find music much richer than the typical "hit of the summer").
Is not comparable.

I'd not put JW beside Mahler and Stravisnky, sorry. Indeed he's an excellent composer in his field which is film scoring but he's not a classical composer. The same that Hans is a master in his genre while being quite different to Williams, but none of both is a classical composer. Classical and film music have completely different audiences, different usage and "reason to be", different popularity and different intellectual contribution. Said that although his unquestionable intellectual value is not granted that Mahler would be as good film composer as JW or Hans, because each one writes/wrote for a different end.

Regarding Epic/Trailer music there is good and bad music, simply that. Style doesn't dictate the quality. In any cases it's like comparing classical with progressive rock, two different beasts.
If it's good of bad depends on the composer and has nothing to do with the genre itself.

Just my 2 cents.
Carles


----------



## EvanArnett

Since we are now talking about what makes a library track good, I thought I would weigh in.

I do quite a lot of music supervision for radio and TV at my job at a post-production studio. (No, I can't get your track placed, we only use our internal libraries, so please no PMs about this.) But I'd like to offer some thoughts from the other end, about how I make the decisions to actually place music, in hopes of helping composers writing for libraries here get their music placed successfully. Generally, I'm placing music for advertising. And please keep in mind these are all just my opinions, not necessarily shared industry-wide.

1. The track needs to have a CONSISTENT mood or emotional through-line all the way through. When I'm placing music, I'm listening for something that matches both the mood and energy level of the voice it is going to sit under. If the script has a change in mood, it is faster for me to edit two tracks together with a transition than to sift through music looking for something that changes FROM just the right mood, TO just the right mood, at exactly the right time. It's ok for a track that builds continuously in energy as long as it maintains the same emotional state.

2. The track needs to be easy to edit. Just because it is 30 or 60 seconds long doesn't mean I am going to simply drop it in and it will magically time out exactly. I may only need 20 seconds of it, or my client may ask me to make the piano melody come in 5 seconds sooner, and I will have to get creative. If I can't edit it properly, I may have to throw it out and place something else. Here is how you accomplish "editability" as a composer: The piece needs to stay in one key. It is very hard to edit from one key into another with no transition. Minimally it needs to end in the same key as it started. Speaking of endings: please do NOT end with a fade-out. Do not be clever and end on a chord other than I. I get wanting to have a wistful, unresolved, intriguing ending, but my clients overwhelmingly want to hear a sting-out on the 1 chord, and will push back if I don't give them that. If you don't give me that, I will have 2 choices, if I have time, I will have to literally create an ending to your track by writing music over it (if I have time), or (if not), throw it out and go with something else.

3.The track needs to be able to sit in a mix under a voice. A few things that help with this are: a wide stereo image in the mids and highs, since voice will sit directly in the center, and not too much dynamic contrast. ( I will take a fader and compressor and remove much of the dynamics if you don't.) Melody instruments right in the vocal range cause problems in the mix. Because every voice is different, there is no way to make sure it won't clash, but those are a few guidelines. But the best way to tell is, put an actual speaking voice recording over your track! Try and find something similar to what you hope this music will be placed for. You may realize you aren't quite hitting the mix, or even the mood you are looking for.

4. It is amazing how simple and minimal the music can be and still be effective. Hans Zimmer may not be my favorite composer of all time, but I have to say, he really gets this. 

5. Keep in mind, some people in charge of choosing music, simply have bad taste in music. Producers and directors often take this role when they shouldn't. That's one of the reasons it's hard to predict what will place and what won't.


----------



## Dean

(I think Evans post is spot on about library and trailer work,thats what I meant but he said it so,so well! That should be a sticky for library music composers.)

D


----------



## germancomponist

EvanArnett said:


> Since we are now talking about what makes a library track good, I thought I would weigh in.
> 
> I do quite a lot of music supervision for radio and TV at my job at a post-production studio. (No, I can't get your track placed, we only use our internal libraries, so please no PMs about this.) But I'd like to offer some thoughts from the other end, about how I make the decisions to actually place music, in hopes of helping composers writing for libraries here get their music placed successfully. Generally, I'm placing music for advertising. And please keep in mind these are all just my opinions, not necessarily shared industry-wide.
> 
> 1. The track needs to have a CONSISTENT mood or emotional through-line all the way through. When I'm placing music, I'm listening for something that matches both the mood and energy level of the voice it is going to sit under. If the script has a change in mood, it is faster for me to edit two tracks together with a transition than to sift through music looking for something that changes FROM just the right mood, TO just the right mood, at exactly the right time. It's ok for a track that builds continuously in energy as long as it maintains the same emotional state.
> 
> 2. The track needs to be easy to edit. Just because it is 30 or 60 seconds long doesn't mean I am going to simply drop it in and it will magically time out exactly. I may only need 20 seconds of it, or my client may ask me to make the piano melody come in 5 seconds sooner, and I will have to get creative. If I can't edit it properly, I may have to throw it out and place something else. Here is how you accomplish "editability" as a composer: The piece needs to stay in one key. It is very hard to edit from one key into another with no transition. Minimally it needs to end in the same key as it started. Speaking of endings: please do NOT end with a fade-out. Do not be clever and end on a chord other than I. I get wanting to have a wistful, unresolved, intriguing ending, but my clients overwhelmingly want to hear a sting-out on the 1 chord, and will push back if I don't give them that. If you don't give me that, I will have 2 choices, if I have time, I will have to literally create an ending to your track by writing music over it (if I have time), or (if not), throw it out and go with something else.
> 
> 3.The track needs to be able to sit in a mix under a voice. A few things that help with this are: a wide stereo image in the mids and highs, since voice will sit directly in the center, and not too much dynamic contrast. ( I will take a fader and compressor and remove much of the dynamics if you don't.) Melody instruments right in the vocal range cause problems in the mix. Because every voice is different, there is no way to make sure it won't clash, but those are a few guidelines. But the best way to tell is, put an actual speaking voice recording over your track! Try and find something similar to what you hope this music will be placed for. You may realize you aren't quite hitting the mix, or even the mood you are looking for.
> 
> 4. It is amazing how simple and minimal the music can be and still be effective. Hans Zimmer may not be my favorite composer of all time, but I have to say, he really gets this.
> 
> 5. Keep in mind, some people in charge of choosing music, simply have bad taste in music. Producers and directors often take this role when they shouldn't. That's one of the reasons it's hard to predict what will place and what won't.


Your suggestions are well and logically comprehensible, and these correspond exactly to today's undemanding Zeitgeist, but in the end there will be only an average production, like thousands of others also sound. Creativity I describe different, and/but outstanding creativity is hardly possible with library music. I do not say that it is not possible, but ... .


----------



## Carles

germancomponist said:


> I do not say that it is not possible, but ...


There are always ways to "disguise" some creativity within those "rules" (at a price of selling less of course, but still some room for).

No libraries related but I can imagine what a hard time had to suffer Shostakovich by writing for so specific "Russian rules" (with the threat to be deported to Siberia if not sounding "Russian enough") and he still brilliantly managed to satisfy the government and show his genial creativity to the rest of the world although the imposed limitations. But he was a genius.

Also trailer writers and film composers have to be creative since the harmony is so basic and repetitive that otherwise all would sound the same. They have to use also non-musical resources (sound design et alike) and combine all with style (while style is something that cannot be learnt from a book) so is not an easy task although the harmonic simplicity.

What's described by Dean and Evan is precisely that, restrictions, lots of them as it has to fit the editor needs and somehow they have to manage to satisfy both, editors and themselves.

And that's why I say that is not comparable and makes non sense to associate gender with quality. There are good and bad writers independently of the gender of their choice. While both are good, Mahler could be not a good film composer and Williams could be not a good classical composer, so to the question if this or that guy are 'good' or 'better than', the question itself is incorrect. Good for what? on what scenario? what context?

Carles


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## germancomponist

Carles said:


> ... And that's why I say that is not comparable and makes non sense to associate gender with quality. There are good and bad writers independently of the gender of their choice. While both are good, Mahler could be not a good film composer and Williams could be not a good classical composer, so to the question if this or that guy are 'good' or 'better than', the question itself is incorrect. Good for what? on what scenario? what context?
> 
> Carles


This is what I am saying with my three words..... . 
Good post, Carles!


----------



## Dean

Carles said:


> There are always ways to "disguise" some creativity within those "rules" (at a price of selling less of course, but still some room for).
> 
> No libraries related but I can imagine what a hard time had to suffer Shostakovich by writing for so specific "Russian rules" (with the threat to be deported to Siberia if not sounding "Russian enough") and he still brilliantly managed to satisfy the government and show his genial creativity to the rest of the world although the imposed limitations. But he was a genius.
> 
> Also trailer writers and film composers have to be creative since the harmony is so basic and repetitive that otherwise all would sound the same. They have to use also non-musical resources (sound design et alike) and combine all with style (while style is something that cannot be learnt from a book) so is not an easy task although the harmonic simplicity.
> 
> What's described by Dean and Evan is precisely that, restrictions, lots of them as it has to fit the editor needs and somehow they have to manage to satisfy both, editors and themselves.
> 
> And that's why I say that is not comparable and makes non sense to associate gender with quality. There are good and bad writers independently of the gender of their choice. While both are good, Mahler could be not a good film composer and Williams could be not a good classical composer, so to the question if this or that guy are 'good' or 'better than', the question itself is incorrect. Good for what? on what scenario? what context?
> 
> Carles



Hey Carles,
I agree that its all about the composer and 'not' the genre,..(maybe its more about how a composer is able or willing to adapt to and adopt different genres/styles/structures and still express them selves?.)....
....anyway in this thread I think we're specifically talking about library music and trailer music,so when the terms 'good enough' are used its only in reference to structure/sound/tone/mix/production thats required,anything else above and beyond that,like a powerful theme that resonates is purely subjective and comes down to personal taste. (Ive never worked with a library) so Im only talking about movie trailers and 'what works',..this has nothing at all to do with which composers are 'better' or 'good enough'.

I know some great composers who just cannot adapt to different styles,like original songs,minimal electro acoustic scores,trailers,adventure/action scores and so on,..they've tried and tried but its just not for them,.or they 'fight it' , hate it,..and so they stick to what they do naturally,brilliantly.They are still great composers.  D


----------



## Michael Rajecki

EvanArnett said:


> Since we are now talking about what makes a library track good, I thought I would weigh in.
> 
> I do quite a lot of music supervision for radio and TV at my job at a post-production studio. (No, I can't get your track placed, we only use our internal libraries, so please no PMs about this.) But I'd like to offer some thoughts from the other end, about how I make the decisions to actually place music, in hopes of helping composers writing for libraries here get their music placed successfully. Generally, I'm placing music for advertising. And please keep in mind these are all just my opinions, not necessarily shared industry-wide.
> 
> 1. The track needs to have a CONSISTENT mood or emotional through-line all the way through. When I'm placing music, I'm listening for something that matches both the mood and energy level of the voice it is going to sit under. If the script has a change in mood, it is faster for me to edit two tracks together with a transition than to sift through music looking for something that changes FROM just the right mood, TO just the right mood, at exactly the right time. It's ok for a track that builds continuously in energy as long as it maintains the same emotional state.
> 
> 2. The track needs to be easy to edit. Just because it is 30 or 60 seconds long doesn't mean I am going to simply drop it in and it will magically time out exactly. I may only need 20 seconds of it, or my client may ask me to make the piano melody come in 5 seconds sooner, and I will have to get creative. If I can't edit it properly, I may have to throw it out and place something else. Here is how you accomplish "editability" as a composer: The piece needs to stay in one key. It is very hard to edit from one key into another with no transition. Minimally it needs to end in the same key as it started. Speaking of endings: please do NOT end with a fade-out. Do not be clever and end on a chord other than I. I get wanting to have a wistful, unresolved, intriguing ending, but my clients overwhelmingly want to hear a sting-out on the 1 chord, and will push back if I don't give them that. If you don't give me that, I will have 2 choices, if I have time, I will have to literally create an ending to your track by writing music over it (if I have time), or (if not), throw it out and go with something else.
> 
> 3.The track needs to be able to sit in a mix under a voice. A few things that help with this are: a wide stereo image in the mids and highs, since voice will sit directly in the center, and not too much dynamic contrast. ( I will take a fader and compressor and remove much of the dynamics if you don't.) Melody instruments right in the vocal range cause problems in the mix. Because every voice is different, there is no way to make sure it won't clash, but those are a few guidelines. But the best way to tell is, put an actual speaking voice recording over your track! Try and find something similar to what you hope this music will be placed for. You may realize you aren't quite hitting the mix, or even the mood you are looking for.
> 
> 4. It is amazing how simple and minimal the music can be and still be effective. Hans Zimmer may not be my favorite composer of all time, but I have to say, he really gets this.
> 
> 5. Keep in mind, some people in charge of choosing music, simply have bad taste in music. Producers and directors often take this role when they shouldn't. That's one of the reasons it's hard to predict what will place and what won't.



This was incredibly helpful - thank you so much for taking the time to write this out. It helps to give me an idea of what the 'rules' are for these tracks. I've often heard to just listen to commercials and observe the type of music they use, but sometimes you're not sure what exactly you're looking for when you do this. Having this perspective, I feel that my research will be more informed now.



dannymc said:


> but is this really what you want to spend the rest of your adult life doing? writing by trial & error corporate style cues that mean nothing to you? i have to say i really take my hat of to those people who can churn out music that has absolutely no meaning to them one way or another. i think the problem with writing in a style thats not you is that you eventually get found out or maybe you don't but you will never be as good as the guys who love that music and that's how they love to write. if i sat down to write a jazz track tomorrow i'd have no clue if i was even on the right track as i do not like that style of music, have no idea whats a good or bad jazz track. i couldn't think of anything more unfulfilling. find the music you love to listen too and that moved you then why not write in that style. follow the music not the money.
> 
> Danny



I agree with this to an extent, but I really like a lot of different styles. I'm certainly not going to work in an area that I hate, but if I stick only to what I know/like I don't feel that I'll be as open to other ideas that are not conventional within my genre. Experimenting with the pressure of creating something 'useable' for me is a great learning experience. On another level, I agree that 'follow the music, not the money' has merit, but I think of it like this: I really enjoy creating music and if I need to write music that isn't artistically fulfilling or enjoyable at times to make a career out of it, I've got no problem doing that. There are parts of just about every job people don't like and I very much suspect that being a composer/musician has those areas. 

Either way, just my 2c. I'm looking into a number of areas with music that could be profitable - libraries is only one of them. Nothing I've produced yet is of great quality, but hopefully with the brilliant insight that Evan posted I'll be able to learn a bit more in that area.


----------



## Baron Greuner

...


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

I was doing some, uh, stock reduction on my collection of Single Malts recently, and halfway into it I realized that this whole "working composer" business, especially when it comes to production music, libraries, advertising etc., has interesting parallels to a career in porn.

you need to be able to produce and ejaculate content on demand and keep doing it way more frequently, for longer periods of time and way past the point where it's normal, enjoyable or even healthy. You have to be able and willing to deliver in sometimes pretty bizzare scenarios and under all kinds of odd and silly and sometimes really nasty restrictions and imposts. You must not have a problem with embarrassing yourself in public while doing so. And while doing all of this, you constantly have to act all enthusiastic, euphoric and overjoyed - even if they're actually literally ripping you a second one. Sometimes when you're all alone, you feel dirty and like crying in a corner.


----------



## Baron Greuner

....


----------



## Carles

Baron Greuner said:


> ...


???


----------



## valenciasound

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I was doing some, uh, stock reduction on my collection of Single Malts recently, and halfway into it I realized that this whole "working composer" business, especially when it comes to production music, libraries, advertising etc., has interesting parallels to a career in porn.
> 
> you need to be able to produce and ejaculate content on demand and keep doing it way more frequently, for longer periods of time and way past the point where it's normal, enjoyable or even healthy. You have to be able and willing to deliver in sometimes pretty bizzare scenarios and under all kinds of odd and silly and sometimes really nasty restrictions and imposts. You must not have a problem with embarrassing yourself in public while doing so. And while doing all of this, you constantly have to act all enthusiastic, euphoric and overjoyed - even if they're actually literally ripping you a second one. Sometimes when you're all alone, you feel dirty and like crying in a corner.



Yea but with one big difference: we get paid royalties on our ejaculated content. That's why completely performance free libraries 'suck' so much.. I mean why would we give up our most prized output without even the chance of some 'back-end' from it.


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## Dean

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I was doing some, uh, stock reduction on my collection of Single Malts recently, and halfway into it I realized that this whole "working composer" business, especially when it comes to production music, libraries, advertising etc., has interesting parallels to a career in porn.
> 
> you need to be able to produce and ejaculate content on demand and keep doing it way more frequently, for longer periods of time and way past the point where it's normal, enjoyable or even healthy. You have to be able and willing to deliver in sometimes pretty bizzare scenarios and under all kinds of odd and silly and sometimes really nasty restrictions and imposts. You must not have a problem with embarrassing yourself in public while doing so. And while doing all of this, you constantly have to act all enthusiastic, euphoric and overjoyed - even if they're actually literally ripping you a second one. Sometimes when you're all alone, you feel dirty and like crying in a corner.



You make it sound like a bad thing? D


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## mc_deli

I think trailer, library, tv and film all have something in common: the composer is subserviant to someone else's vision. And, connected with that, to be a media composer you have to be ready to deviate. 

I have been at this five minutes and every brief has been to a new and different style, and every brief has had to take into account the structural limitations cited above.

Is anyone really able to start as a media composer and just do their thing? Even if you just stick to library and your own sub genre, surely no one's organic niche involves 2.20, 30, sting... Surely this is the art of compromise?


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## rJames

mc_deli said:


> Is anyone really able to start as a media composer and just do their thing? Even if you just stick to library and your own sub genre, surely no one's organic niche involves 2.20, 30, sting... Surely this is the art of compromise?


Caution: sarcasm alert. (not directed at just mc_deli)
Good thing when I got my job helping out at the grocery store I didn't have to bow to the pressure of having to do someone else's bidding. 
Or after I spent 2 to 4 years in graduate school, I didn't have to help prepare someone else's argument for court or take late hours at the hospital to fill in for another emergency doctor who couldn't come in that night.
I am an artist and I must do what whim strikes me today or I am not worthy to be an artist.

Do we hear ourselves?

In direct answer to mc_deli' quote... Yes, some composers can just do their own thing right from the start. Just as some lawyers can do that. Just as some (who've come up with a unique idea) can go into the grocery business and do their own thing. As can some young doctors.

I think I can safely say that all careers involve a little time where you have to, "pay your dues."

My wife (who is in Human Resources) tells me that millennials, as a generalization, need to be "recognized," more than previous generations because we parents have been giving them trophies just for cleaning their room.

Its a tough world. Some people get a break, some people make one, some people get lots of luck, some people get none.

Too bad Jimmy Hellfire isn't right about composers work being like porn stars. At least in that profession there is an immediate payoff...so to speak. As a library composer you'll need to write a cue and then wait a year or two for the orgasm. Hard to keep it up with that kind of a delayed satisfaction. (puns intended)


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## Jimmy Hellfire

Dean said:


> You make it sound like a bad thing? D



Not necessarily, people are different, and surely individual experiences are different too. But even if my post was of course tongue-in-cheek and BSing around - at the core of it, there are certain things to be critically reflected on about being a so-called "working composer". Since some younger guys might imagine it to be this playground of joy and artistic fulfillment where you get to write music all day and work on exciting creative projects with cool and creative people and even get paid to do so. It can be quite different and sobering and I don't think it's for everybody. And I think we all agree that there are far easier ways to make a way better living without necessarily feeling miserable.

I'm also pretty sure that no matter how much you love to do something, certain circumstances can make one forget why they got into doing it in the first place, and it might get difficult to rediscover that original place of fascination and excitement again. I'm aware that a lot of composers don't like hearing this kind of thing, because there seems to be this certain mantra of "grin 'n' bear it" that is being almost religiously internalized at times. It's almost kind of like a taboo, like postnatal depression, to make another silly comparison.

Living off of making music is almost as personal as making music itself is. I truly don't believe it's for everyone. Not matter how much they actually love making music or how talented they are. I also believe that it differs from person to person what circumstances have to be met for a person to be able to love making music. My old man is a passionate angler. He always used to tell me: man, I don't know - I've been doing this stuff every free minute of my life, but if someone made me do it all day and night and race the clock all the time, I'd fucking hate it.  A friend of mine is a digital artist, and we often had these conversations about taking gigs etc., and he is the type of guy who'd rather draw animal porn and traffic signs and pictograms than having to take up a "normal" job on the side. He's the type of guy who just wants to draw. No matter what, no matter where. He always wondered how I would say "nah, I'm not doing this" or "can't be assed to do that" or how I wouldn't do somethig for political reasons or something. Folks are different. It's a challenging field.


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## givemenoughrope

chillbot said:


> I write "jazz" I write "country" I write "hip hop" but I couldn't create a straight up jazz or country or hip hop track to save my life.



That has totally been my (albeit relatively brief) experience. I actually had one producer ask if I was a hip hop producer. He is from Japan and a huge American and Japanese hip hop fan so that really blew me away. But yea, I was making "safe for network tv" underscore hip hop.


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## hummingbird

As someone who writes for libraries... I do not find the 'restrictions' to be 'restrictive'. I enjoy the challenge of being creative within the framework outlined. I do not think being 'commerical' and being 'artistic/creative' are mutually exclusive. I find it interesting to watch the industry morph in its desires, just as hit shows come and go so does the kind of music being requested. I like trying my hand at new genres while sticking to my strengths when needed. It's pretty cool to be able to do music as more than a hobby, and, as mentioned above, there are going to be some moments, like any job, of difficulty. I find it is possible to write 'for myself' and also 'for the market'. Sometimes even at the same time


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## germancomponist

hummingbird said:


> As someone who writes for libraries... I do not find the 'restrictions' to be 'restrictive'. I enjoy the challenge of being creative within the framework outlined. I do not think being 'commerical' and being 'artistic/creative' are mutually exclusive. I find it interesting to watch the industry morph in its desires, just as hit shows come and go so does the kind of music being requested. I like trying my hand at new genres while sticking to my strengths when needed. It's pretty cool to be able to do music as more than a hobby, and, as mentioned above, there are going to be some moments, like any job, of difficulty. I find it is possible to write 'for myself' and also 'for the market'. Sometimes even at the same time


But you also know: The money dictates everything! Basically put, it is pathetic to have to live in such a system.


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## hummingbird

germancomponist said:


> But you also know: The money dictates everything! Basically put, it is pathetic to have to live in such a system.



We are in good company. The Mozarts, Beethovens, and many other great composers had sponsors for whom they wrote music. Art is not better because the artist is poor.


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## EvanArnett

One more question for the guys currently working in the music library scene. For libraries that specifically commission original work, what are the time frame and output requirements like? I realize it probably varies, but if they say something like "we need 16 new original tracks in this style in a week," it might be tough if I'm also working full-time.


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## Johnny4Lonnie

EvanArnett said:


> One more question for the guys currently working in the music library scene. For libraries that specifically commission original work, what are the time frame and output requirements like? I realize it probably varies, but if they say something like "we need 16 new original tracks in this style in a week," it might be tough if I'm also working full-time.



When you say specifically commission original work, do you mean exclusive for one specific library only?

I'd be interested to hear how an exclusive PMA composer-type would answer this. In my predominantly Non-ex world I get quite a few e-mails and such for two different kinds of requests like what you're asking- a call for more music in this or that specific genre with an open ended asap kind of date. Usually for some previous project they placed a bunch of stuff for and gearing up for the new season; or maybe an upcoming project they think (or hope) they will get

other is a very specific call for one or two songs to fulfill a very specific need that they don't already have . Usually pretty quick turn around, like 24-48 hours. Maybe by end of week sometimes. "Hey if you have something just like this very specific song already made, send it in and we'll have a listen". Or "you wanna try to whip up something really quick and we'll see what happens?"


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## Baron Greuner

....


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## Dean

Johnny4Lonnie said:


> When you say specifically commission original work, do you mean exclusive for one specific library only?
> 
> I'd be interested to hear how an exclusive PMA composer-type would answer this. In my predominantly Non-ex world I get quite a few e-mails and such for two different kinds of requests like what you're asking- a call for more music in this or that specific genre with an open ended asap kind of date. Usually for some previous project they placed a bunch of stuff for and gearing up for the new season; or maybe an upcoming project they think (or hope) they will get
> 
> other is a very specific call for one or two songs to fulfill a very specific need that they don't already have . Usually pretty quick turn around, like 24-48 hours. Maybe by end of week sometimes. "Hey if you have something just like this very specific song already made, send it in and we'll have a listen". Or "you wanna try to whip up something really quick and we'll see what happens?"



Hey Johnny,maybe I can answer the exclusive question;
I work exclusively with one trailer house,(they're the only trailer guys Ive ever worked with.)
I'd say I only compose about 10+ *original trailer tracks per year .
*Ive revised/adapted/rewritten/remixed some of these cues for many pitches,[one or two cues I've revised 12+ times.]

I also compose cues on a continous basis,no specific deadlines or pressure(but sooner is always better.) I have a style,trailer guys and clients are happy with that and so I just do my thing,..they have other guys to cover other styles. I might have a short period where I send a batch of cues (then the muse fucks off,..who knows where?  ) and I wont compose any more trailer cues for a few months.When Im on a feature or tv project sometimes I wont do a trailer cue for 6 or more months.

Then there are bespoke pitches with deadlines ranging from 48hrs,..end of the week to a week(rarely) of course you could be then revising that track for the next while.
I always compose these cues from scratch,..sometimes it all flows and other times it comes kicking and screaming,like pulling teeth.

Dean


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## SillyMidOn

EvanArnett said:


> One more question for the guys currently working in the music library scene. For libraries that specifically commission original work, what are the time frame and output requirements like? I realize it probably varies, but if they say something like "we need 16 new original tracks in this style in a week," it might be tough if I'm also working full-time.



This depends entirely on the library - they tend to have different ways of working (and I am not including trailer libraries in this, as they are a slightly different beast). I've worked for small independents to the big (label) libraries, and it's all down to how they individually choose to operate. There is very rarely a rush to get things out in the library world. Two exceptions might be where the library has received a specific request that needs to be filled quickly, i.e. they've provided music for a specific show (say Masterchef), but Masterchef desperately now need more tracks, but usually that means you've still got a week or two. The other exception might be an album has just been released, and they realise it's doing incredibly well, so they quickly want to put out a 2nd one in the same style.

Then of course it also depends how many tracks they want from you. In general I would say a library will only ask you to do, say a dozen tracks a year, maybe fewer. So that means you need to work for a number of libraries to get your tack count up high enough to make enough money. That creates the problem that they sometimes all come at once with requests, but it's a nice problem to have. 

With some libraries you can build a really good rapport over the years, and this is really a question of people skills as much as writing skills, and you can then became one of their "main people" and do a substantial amount of work for them in a year. It's not easy to get into that position, however. And sometimes it all can go wrong when that contact you've worked well with for years moves on. If it's to another library, that's ok, as people tend to take their contacts with them, but you can end up being high and dry. So it's always a good idea to know the owner(s) of the library as well over time (if it's an "independent"), so when "your guy" moves on, they actually know who you are (sounds silly, but it's true).

So in general, no there usually isn't any rush, but equally once the libraries have their tracks, they sometimes can take an absolute age to release something: my record is two and a half years - that really sucks as that whole time your tracks are nor making money. Some release tracks quickly. One other thing I guess I should mentioned is that there are generally 2 different modi operandi in how libraries source the track. Most common is that they will ask a handful of composers to pitch tracks for an album. This might mean that not all your tracks end up on the final album, so you then have spare tracks, which you can pitch elsewhere, but it's a pain. I hate this way of working and these days try to avoid such projects, but it is pretty common. The other is where they ask you to do a whole album, or an exact number of pieces on an album (say half or the third of an album with 2 other composers).

Hope that helps.


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## Desire Inspires

You have to do the work. That is the secret.


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## Puzzlefactory

Dean said:


> Hey Johnny,maybe I can answer the exclusive question;
> I work exclusively with one trailer house,(they're the only trailer guys Ive ever worked with.)
> I'd say I only compose about 10+ *original trailer tracks per year .
> *Ive revised/adapted/rewritten/remixed some of these cues for many pitches,[one or two cues I've revised 12+ times.]
> 
> I also compose cues on a continous basis,no specific deadlines or pressure(but sooner is always better.) I have a style,trailer guys and clients are happy with that and so I just do my thing,..they have other guys to cover other styles. I might have a short period where I send a batch of cues (then the muse fucks off,..who knows where?  ) and I wont compose any more trailer cues for a few months.When Im on a feature or tv project sometimes I wont do a trailer cue for 6 or more months.
> 
> Then there are bespoke pitches with deadlines ranging from 48hrs,..end of the week to a week(rarely) of course you could be then revising that track for the next while.
> I always compose these cues from scratch,..sometimes it all flows and other times it comes kicking and screaming,like pulling teeth.
> 
> Dean



Sounds like a sweet deal. 

Do you have links to any of your work? Any trailers still online somewhere?

Edit: just realised this is a necro-thread...


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## Pixelee

Puzzlefactory said:


> Sounds like a sweet deal.
> 
> Do you have links to any of your work? Any trailers still online somewhere?
> 
> Edit: just realised this is a necro-thread...


Sharks Don't Sleep. 5 million views on Youtube now


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## Desire Inspires

Placing songs in TV and movies has become like the rest of the music business....the supply exceeds the demand by a thousand percent so the odds of anything worthwhile are slim without personal contact and someone pushing your wares.


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## doctornine

Desire Inspires said:


> You have to do the work. That is the secret.



Yup.


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## Mojo Bone

Johnny4Lonnie said:


> Taxi has a decent rep and they have been around for awhile. And they are pretty upfront about what they do and what you should expect. But their model is not strong IMO as far as getting in for licensing opportunities. Maybe they work better for bands and artists looking for a record deal or management; or for non-performing songwriters trying to get hooked up with A&R reps to pitch their songs to other artists.
> 
> As far as licensing goes, you pay an annual fee (I think its about $400/year) and then you pitch your songs to their briefs for $5 a pop. First step is, the Taxi reps decide if your song is worthy to be moved up the chain. If so, then they send your songs and multiple others to the next decision maker, which can be a music sup, producer, publisher,or a music library. And then they decide from there. My impression after going through a year with them - if it is for a TV or film license, it is usually a library they are working with. If it is a record deal or such, it is an A&R rep or someone pitching to an A&R rep.
> 
> Like a lot of other things, the expansion of the internet and the licensing market has made their model obsolete. 5-10 years ago the whole thing was more of a mystery and you needed to jump on their "Taxi" to give you a ride to people you couldn't get to otherwise.
> 
> Of course all of this is just my two cents. Like Marvin Gaye said, believe half of what you see and none of what you read on the internet



If I may, a few corrections, though the broad strokes are mostly right; Taxi is different from most submission sites in that they don't share submission fees with the listing parties, which is an incentive for churning, since it's hardly difficult to come up with a believable blurb, whether you actually represent a real opportunity or otherwise.

I don't mind naming names; Music Xray and SonicBids are sites that do this, and based on personal experience, I _suspect_ they also copypaste opps from tipsheets, Taxi and each other. Reverbnation is similarly ethically compromised, imo, but you can (and I do) use their music-hosting services (and a few others) without getting shafted; just read the fine print.

Taxi is a different animal and people have misconceptions; they wanna ask about deals and percentages as if the business of licensing were a game of chance, but if you don't have what the market wants, your "odds" of making a sale are zero divided by infinity. You don't so much 'ask for the job', but if you can 'be the guy', the work comes to you. In order for that to happen, you have to have the goods and know the players. It's a Moneyball approach to music licensing, a two-pronged attack; have what's needed and know who needs it. Taxi's forum is essentially a school, just like VI Control, only the emphasis is on placing your music for profit.

I hope I'm not being too long-winded here, but Taxi is like AA; the program works, if you work the program; I think of what I pay for membership as _tuition_, and it's just a bonus that it includes two free passes to an annual LA music convention where I can rub elbows with up and coming vendors and buyers of commercial music; the forum where I can learn and grow along with fellow vendors is free!

If you're at all interested in learning to produce cues or even just how to better represent the commercial aspects of your music, I can wholeheartedly recommend Taxi.


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## chillbot

Desire Inspires said:


> You have to do the work. That is the secret.


Why do you constantly bump old threads without adding anything. It's fucking annoying.


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## Mojo Bone

chillbot said:


> Why do you constantly bump old threads without adding anything. It's fucking annoying.


You've heard the phrase, 'pearls of wisdom'? Pearls are caused by grains of sand. Hugz to Desire.


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## Desire Inspires

chillbot said:


> Why do you constantly bump old threads without adding anything. It's fucking annoying.



The info is valuable to me. Others may find value as well. It's like discovering a great old book at a yard sale. Age doesn't make a thread less valuable.


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## mouse

chillbot said:


> Why do you constantly bump old threads without adding anything. It's fucking annoying.



Its not just here. "Desire Inspires" posts the same mundane inspirational crap on other forums too. I'm pretty sure its just a troll to be honest


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## Zhao Shen

germancomponist said:


> But you also know: The money dictates everything! Basically put, it is pathetic to have to live in such a system.



I mean... doesn't money dictate everything for professional composers everywhere? You think Zimmer would work with Nolan for the sake of "art" and "authenticity" if he didn't get paid? The "true artist" who doesn't care about money and is solely dedicated to his/her art is an awfully romanticized trope.

If anything, I have the utmost respect for the perseverance of composers in these more library-based "commercial" industries. They have to tirelessly churn out track after track after track - many do hundreds every year - just to stay afloat. I tried it out for some time with Really Slow Motion (great guys) but found that that sort of workflow was exhausting and, for me personally, not creatively fulfilling, so I ended up stopping altogether.


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## Valérie_D

[QUOTE=" If anything, I have the utmost respect for the perseverance of composers in these more library-based "commercial" industries.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for that comment Zhao Shen. Since I started working for music libraries, I have been surprised to hear some composers (not on forums) tell me that they would never do it because it is selling out and it would lower the quality of their music, reputation, etc. For me, the experience has been great because I write the exact same music I would if it was for a bespoke project. Yes my music is melody oriented so it's very suitable for various mainstream projects but I try to find publishers that value my work. I don't feel like selling out and it's really creatively freeing : if, for exemple, a director does not like my music, he/she won't call me to ask me to make changes, they wil simply not buy it and I will never know about it.


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## Desire Inspires

mouse said:


> Its not just here. "Desire Inspires" posts the same mundane inspirational crap on other forums too. I'm pretty sure its just a troll to be honest


Wow, I didn't know inspiration was a bad thing. Don't we need more people to inspire one another instead of tearing one another down?

Do you have anything of value to add?


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## Flaneurette

I don't think there is any _secret_.

Library developers are just like all of us: human. Well, most of them are. At least, we _hope_ they are. (We won't name names) 

So how do you approach them? I think it's easy. Make contact with them first. Get to know them. Know their names. Start building a relation and network. Be _genuinely_ interested in their products. If you don't like their products and niche, don't contact them. Write them a personal note.

Add them to you social media first. Instead of writing an e-mail providing services, write an e-mail about their products. Something like:
_
Hi Alex (Embertone), thanks for adding me to your Facebook/Twitter. I really enjoyed that whistle you guys made! are there any plans for a legato version? would love it to hear more about it. Oh, and if you ever need a fresh demo for the legato version, just let me know, I have some time. _

Then list your name, and your links to your websites/social media, so they can _organically_ find your work.

This way you don't come across as someone who wants to sell something, but genuinely would love to write a demo for a product. If you are a beginner, you might even want to do a couple of free demo's. If you think about it, they are never free. Well, you don't get money, but you do get a piece of network. Networks are money. Next time, if they enjoyed your demo, they might think: _"We got this new product... it's a legato whistle. It's cutting-edge. Simply mindblowing. The Bee's knees. But we need a demo by 2PM. Our house composer is too busy... hey, we got this guy/gal who gave us a demo for this whistle a month ago, let's contact him/her to write a couple more."
_
Etc. etc. ok so now don't go spam Alex all at once.  sorry Alex


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## Desire Inspires

Flaneurette said:


> I don't think there is any _secret_.
> 
> Library developers are just like all of us: human. Well, most of them are. At least, we _hope_ they are. (We won't name names)
> 
> So how do you approach them? I think it's easy. Make contact with them first. Get to know them. Know their names. Start building a relation and network. Be _genuinely_ interested in their products. If you don't like their products and niche, don't contact them. Write them a personal note.
> 
> Add them to you social media first. Instead of writing an e-mail providing services, write an e-mail about their products. Something like:
> _
> Hi Alex (Embertone), thanks for adding me to your Facebook/Twitter. I really enjoyed that whistle you guys made! are there any plans for a legato version? would love it to hear more about it. Oh, and if you ever need a fresh demo for it, just let me know, I have some time. _
> 
> Then list your name, and your links to your websites/social media, so they can _organically_ find your work.
> 
> This way you don't come across as someone who wants to sell something, but genuinely would love to write a demo for a product. If you are a beginner, you might even want to do a couple of free demo's. If you think about it, they are never free. Well, you don't get money, but you do get a piece of network. Networks are money. Next time, if they enjoyed your demo, they might think: _"We got this new product... we need a demo by 2PM. Our house composer is too busy... hey, we got this guy/gal who gave us a demo for this whistle a month ago, let's contact him/her."
> _
> Etc. etc. ok so now don't go spam Alex all at once.  sorry Alex



I believe that the discussion was about production music libraries and not sound or software libraries. 

Nevertheless, you make some great suggestions. The smaller developers are usually great with feedback from people who purchase new sounds.


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