# Navigating a large template in Logic



## stigc56 (Dec 6, 2019)

I'm curious about how those of you that use LPX and have large templates (200 - 600 tracks) navigate to find the tracks you need in your work.
I have around 150 tracks in LPX and I find that I spend a lot of time scrolling up and down to find the tracks I need.
In Cubase I have around 800 tracks and I hit Command+F and write something in the search field and select the track I want and hit enter.
How do you overcome this in LPX?
I'm asking because I must say that I constantly switching back and forth between those two! ;-(


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## charlieclouser (Dec 6, 2019)

For years in the pre-10.4.7 era my Logic template had 240 instance of EXS24, 16x 16-channel multitimbral VI channels going to VEPro (giving an additional 256 channels of Kontakt etc.), and 64 audio tracks - all routed in 5.1 to eight stem sub-masters by way of busses, with individual front+back reverb+delay for each stem. I had four busses unused - hooray!

Since 10.4.7 my template is up to 512 instances of EXS24, 128 audio tracks, and the same 16 x 16 VEPro feeds. So, bigger but still only half of Logic's capacity.

As soon as my instrument count got beyond, say, 64 or so I've been very diligent about organizing how they stack up vertically so I already know where to look for the sound I want. Here are the salient points:

- I never use the Mixer window that can appear at the bottom of the Main window. Like, never ever.

- I pre-build all of my Instrument, Audio, Aux, and ReWire objects in the Environment window. I place them precisely, create colored ornament labels for everything, and then "Lock Positions / Hide Cables" to lock everything in place. I keep my Environment open on a second display to the right of my Main display.

- I make damn sure that "Automatic Management of Channel Strips" or whatever it's called is turned OFF. I don't want Logic spuriously making Aux objects and moving stuff around in my precious Environment.

- I use Folder Track Stacks to make collapsable bricks with 16 VI tracks per Folder Stack, and have a key command assigned to expand / collapse the Folder Stacks, and I use color-coding and icons for each Folder Stack and the tracks within so everything matches.

- I do not use Summing Track Stacks. I want to be able to re-route any single object within a Stack to a different bus / stem sub-master at any time, so I can merge or separate elements within stems WITHOUT moving the sound / MIDI to a different track. This can create routing chaos sometimes but keeps everything where I expect it to be in the track list.

- Each 16-channel Folder Stack represents 16 slots in a given category - so, Stack 1 is kick drums, taikos, etc. Stack 2 is mid-range percussion. Stack 3 is metallic clanks and stuff. Stack 4 is high percussion. 

- I always leave the last 2-4 tracks within each stack empty so I can go browsing for wild-card sounds that fit within that Stack's category but weren't pre-assigned in my template.

- Each group of four Stacks represents a stem, and all elements within are routed to that stem's sub-master busses. So, 16 tracks per stack x 4 stacks per stem x 8 stems = 512 VI tracks total, with 64 per stem. Should be enough (for now!).

- I obey some in-house "rules" like putting my main low-strings patch on the first track of the first Stack in the Strings array. It used to always live on track 65, halfway through my old 128-track template. Now it's on track 257, exactly at the mid-point in the fully-expanded track list. Other instruments that I use in every template function like this, as "anchor points" that I KNOW will be right where I left them and will never be deleted from the template. Not every Stack has an anchor instrument, but almost...

- Every 16-channel stack obeys some pretty strict rules about what's going to be in there. So if I'm looking for strings harmonics, sul-pont-trems, or any thin and icy string sounds I KNOW they'll be all next to each other in a certain Stack. Likewise with almost every sound in my world - they each have a home Stack, a place where by all the rules of nature they "should be". 

- Those Stack categories follow the organization of my EXS library pretty closely (and my EXS library is obsessively organized), so if I want to go browsing for another sound in the Synths>Ambiences>Atonal category, I don't just go looking for an empty track in some random Stack, I first go to one of those few empty tracks at the end of the correct category's Stack, and load the new sound THERE.

- If I haven't used any tracks within a Folder Stack I keep it collapsed, and possibly hidden until I need it. With up+down arrow keys assigned to move through the tracks list, I can often get where I'm going without using the mouse.

- As the cue progresses I make extensive use of the "Hide Track" command to reduce clutter. When I need a new sound, a quick key-command to temporarily show all tracks lets me see everything, and then I can un-collapse the correct Folder Stack if needed, un-check the little green "Hide" button on the newly-used track, and then re-enable "Hide". Almost all of this is done with key commands, very quick.

But really it's the obsessive organization of everything into 16-channel bricks (Folder Stacks) that makes this easy. I still obey my own mental rules for how sounds should be organized from top-to-bottom, much like in the old analog tape days where kick drum was always on fader #1 on the SSL and lead vocal was always on the first fader to the right of the center section on the console. So the list of Folder Stacks, tracks, stems, busses.... EVERYTHING follows that thinking of how any given sound has a "right" place it should be in the natural order of things. Even within each Folder Stack, in my mind there's always a "first" instrument that sits in the first track - it's the main / biggest / heaviest / thickest sound in that family, and the others descend from there, getting higher / lighter / thinner / more obscure in character as you move down the list. 

Your rules may be different, but working from lowest to highest track / folder / bus / stem numbers my list looks like this: 

Stem A / Folder Stacks 1-4 = Low Drums, Mid Drums, Metal Drums, High Drums

Stem B / Folder Stacks 5-8 = Basses, Synths+Pulses, Guitars+Blasts+Braams, Crazy Hard Noise

Stem C / Folder Stacks 9-12 = Bowed Metals, Metal Textures, Noise Textures, Glitch Shit

Stem D / Folder Stacks 13-16 = Synth Textures, Synth Ambs, Atonal Textures, Atonal Ambs

Stem E / Folder Stacks 17-20 = Low Strings, Main String Ensembles, Icy High Strings, Strings FX

Stem F / Folder Stacks 21-24 = Low Brass, Mid Brass, Woodwinds, Brass FX

Stem G / Folder Stacks 25-28 = Orch FX Short A, Orch FX Short B, Orch FX Long A, Orch FX Long B

Stem H / Folder Stacks 29-32 = Short Strings Low, Short Strings Hi, Choir+Vox, Choir+Vox FX.

I am currently building a variation on this template which is in Quad instead of 5.1, so I can fit more stems with fewer channels per stem into my 64-channel MADI output (that goes from the Logic rig to the ProTools print rig). When this is complete I'll be able to use up to 16 stems with 4 channels each, instead of my current setup of 8 stems of 6 channels each (with some left empty). This would let me basically split each of my current stems into two, each of the above categories would be split in half.

Not sure if I'll need to go this way but we'll see...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 6, 2019)

An additional tool: screensets with the Main window scrolled to different places, for example one screenset scrolled to bowed metals, another to synth textures, etc.

I don't do that, but I would if I worked with 200 - 600 tracks.

But yeah, I've seen a lot of requests for a track search function.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 6, 2019)

You could also set up buttons in a floating Environment window as part of your main screenset.

This is a Meta button set up to recall a screenset. You'd set up more of them, and they'd probably be smaller.

I guess the screenshot isn't particularly helpful other than to show what a floating window looks like, but there are different buttons with different styles. This would be a dedicated Environment layer.


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## charlieclouser (Dec 6, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> But yeah, I've seen a lot of requests for a track search function.



I would love that feature - and / or a feature to scroll to and select / record enable a track by its number in the Main window. That would be quicker than searching by track name in obsessively-organized templates (like mine!) because with key commands you could just type "Command-J, 122, Enter" to "Jump to, select, and record-enable track #122", and then arrow-key your way to the right track if you're a couple tracks off. Of course it should un-collapse / un-hide the destination track if it's in a collapsed folder or hidden. 

I would LOVE this.


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## stonzthro (Dec 6, 2019)

At the start of a project I add an empty region to each instrument I think I will use, then hide the rest. If I need to use a track I've hidden, I unhide everything, add an empty region to the track, then hide them all again - super fast and makes everything easy to view.


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## A.G (Dec 6, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> An additional tool: screensets


This is. It is even better than searching cause it is fixed and goes directly to a given Main window view (plus Mixer Channel Strips View etc).


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## samphony (Dec 6, 2019)

Another feature that is often overlooked (until logic gets full track search etc) is the Hide Group 1-32 workflow.

Meaning you can:


in the mixer select a channel strip
go to the group drop down menu and add as many groups as you need (up to 32)
open the group window (command+ G) and select all groups and uncheck all options (volume, pan etc)
Rename groups as needed
select tracks
in the group window select a group
use key command to add tracks to selected group
Create key commands for toggle hide group 1-32


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 6, 2019)

charlieclouser said:


> I would love that feature - and / or a feature to scroll to and select / record enable a track by its number in the Main window. That would be quicker than searching by track name in obsessively-organized templates (like mine!) because with key commands you could just type "Command-J, 122, Enter" to "Jump to, select, and record-enable track #122", and then arrow-key your way to the right track if you're a couple tracks off. Of course it should un-collapse / un-hide the destination track if it's in a collapsed folder or hidden.
> 
> I would LOVE this.



I'd definitely use it.

In the meantime, a screenset with the track you want at the top of the window is pretty close - you type in Control-122 and then click on the track at the top of the window.

But of course you do have to create screenset #122 first!


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## A.G (Dec 6, 2019)

stigc56 said:


> I have around 150 tracks in LPX and I find that I spend a lot of time scrolling up and down to find the tracks I need.


150 tracks is nothing... However it is hard to remember them for a given project without a custom organization.
It is a good idea to organize your tracks in Instrument kind folders such as: Woods, Brass etc.
In this case you will have no more than 8 - 10 Instrument kind folder tracks. 
Whenever you need to record/edit the 2nd Clarinet, you just go to the Woods folder => Clarinets.
100 Screensets are quite enough to organize Folder Instrument kinds and Instrument sectors such as Woods=> Piccolos, Flutes etc.


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## dgburns (Dec 6, 2019)

Osculator‘s plugin for logic shows the intriguing possibilities that lurk inside LPX’s OSC capable coding.

With the right tools, we could address the exact track we want by OSC message, so it could be possible to select a track remotely either by track number or by track name now. All Apple would need to do is open up the sdk so we could access the right messages.

But they have not- sigh


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## gsilbers (Dec 6, 2019)

I remember there was a way by creating empty folders on top of each category/groups. Then have another copy of the arrange window but hide everything minus the folders. 
this way it’s only the category folders showing and if you click brass folder then the main arrange would go to that folder with all the instruments. But you had a really small column for the folders so it can be placed next to the larger arrange window. This is way back then. Don’t know if ya still possible w the new main window


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 6, 2019)

The way it works now is simpler, I think: you have folders with a disclosure triangle to show/hide the tracks inside them.


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## jcrosby (Dec 6, 2019)

stigc56 said:


> I'm curious about how those of you that use LPX and have large templates (200 - 600 tracks) navigate to find the tracks you need in your work.
> I have around 150 tracks in LPX and I find that I spend a lot of time scrolling up and down to find the tracks I need.
> In Cubase I have around 800 tracks and I hit Command+F and write something in the search field and select the track I want and hit enter.
> How do you overcome this in LPX?
> I'm asking because I must say that I constantly switching back and forth between those two! ;-(


Multiple Summing Stacks inside of a Folder stack ranked by _instrument/category_. I.E. I have a 600-ish instrument template that folds down to about 25-30 folder stacks... (Two of these stacks are my auxes and busses...)

TLDR is I find Logic to be quite reasonable for managing large groups of VIs once I got used to the limitation of grouping summing stacks inside of a single folder stack... (So... _OT Ark Brass_ in one summing stack, _SF Brass_ in another, _CS Brass_ in another... All grouped under one single *BRASS* folder stack... Imported/custom Icons being pretty critical for me locating a particular stack quickly.)

Rank the folder by whatever priority makes sense to you... Most likely instrument by hierarchy, however some may perhaps prefer by developer... The point is that you can put unlimited _summing _stacks under a single folder stack; just do as much planning ahead of time in terms of deciding _what_ your preferred _folder stack _hierarchy will be or you may find yourself having to do a little backtracking...

That said... Logic could *definitely* use a find command... Even with a well slimmed down/organized template I still wish Logic had this frequently!


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## tmhuud (Dec 7, 2019)

A search would would be really kewl with filters. 

Good one on screensets Nick!


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## Ashermusic (Dec 7, 2019)

Screensets:
Mixer in Tracks view, software instruments only on iMac monitor, Mixer in Tracks view, audio and auxes only on second display

Mixer in Single view.


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## gsilbers (Dec 7, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The way it works now is simpler, I think: you have folders with a disclosure triangle to show/hide the tracks inside them.





no.. its this one.. used back in the day




create a new arrange window (now called main page), create several folders/ornament/midi instruments in the midi environment and reassign to the arrange page. on the second main page hide all but those. now with selecting those on the small column (not as small :/) the other main page with all the tracks will jump up or down to where that enviroment object is in the arrange. its an old trick and i think i barley got it to work. i dont use large template and this project is some random project i opened just to show... in theory if you have 1000 tracks and have sfx all th way on the button and strings all the way on track one, with this method it jumps easily up or down. 

hope it makes sense. im sure someone with more patience and logic chops can do a better job. the downside of course is that the colume where the objects are on the left is not smaller. but maybe they can be on a ipad screen if screen shared?


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## gsilbers (Dec 7, 2019)

gsilbers said:


> no.. its this one.. used back in the day
> 
> 
> 
> ...




hmm.. i dont know why i went w all the trouble of the midi environment. it was to create a old skool folder w/o packing anything w it but i think this hide/2nd arrange window tip can be done w any track i guess.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 7, 2019)

gsilbers said:


> hmm.. i dont know why i went w all the trouble of the midi environment. it was to create a old skool folder w/o packing anything w it but i think this hide/2nd arrange window tip can be done w any track i guess.



The great thing about Logic has always been that everyone finds different ways of using it.

I wonder whether you can't still do the same thing you did with the second Main window. Will have to check. But the important thing it does is scroll to the tracks you want, if I understand. Same Level Link or whatever it is.


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## InLight-Tone (Dec 7, 2019)

jcrosby said:


> Multiple Summing Stacks inside of a Folder stack ranked by _instrument/category_. I.E. I have a 600-ish instrument template that folds down to about 25-30 folder stacks... (Two of these stacks are my auxes and busses...)
> 
> TLDR is I find Logic to be quite reasonable for managing large groups of VIs once I got used to the limitation of grouping summing stacks inside of a single folder stack... (So... _OT Ark Brass_ in one summing stack, _SF Brass_ in another, _CS Brass_ in another... All grouped under one single *BRASS* folder stack... Imported/custom Icons being pretty critical for me locating a particular stack quickly.)
> 
> ...


I can't seem to nest summing stacks inside of folders. I'm getting error messages that not all tracks are on the same nesting level etc. Do I have to do that in the Environment? Fairly new to Logic (3 months)...


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## stigc56 (Dec 8, 2019)

charlieclouser said:


> For years in the pre-10.4.7 era my Logic template had 240 instance of EXS24, 16x 16-channel multitimbral VI channels going to VEPro (giving an additional 256 channels of Kontakt etc.), and 64 audio tracks - all routed in 5.1 to eight stem sub-masters by way of busses, with individual front+back reverb+delay for each stem. I had four busses unused - hooray!
> 
> Since 10.4.7 my template is up to 512 instances of EXS24, 128 audio tracks, and the same 16 x 16 VEPro feeds. So, bigger but still only half of Logic's capacity.
> 
> ...



Hi Charlie
Many many thanks for taking the time to describe your set-up. I know that the careful planning of a large template is crucial. I also find myself using too much time on organizing and building - especially in Cubase - and I realized that my organizing gene are taking too much focus. I have been working on a large Lemur template, programmed set-ups in Composer Tools, hoping for the day, that Logic will have the must basic tools to solve these problems.
Your way of doing it is build on your big experience in your work I understand, and I will surely look into this!
Thanks a lot!


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## stigc56 (Dec 8, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> An additional tool: screensets with the Main window scrolled to different places, for example one screenset scrolled to bowed metals, another to synth textures, etc.
> 
> I don't do that, but I would if I worked with 200 - 600 tracks.
> 
> But yeah, I've seen a lot of requests for a track search function.


Hi Nick
I havn't thought of screensets in this context! That's a good idea, I will try it.


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## stigc56 (Dec 8, 2019)

samphony said:


> Another feature that is often overlooked (until logic gets full track search etc) is the Hide Group 1-32 workflow.
> 
> Meaning you can:
> 
> ...


Hi Samphony
Yes I use the group system to select which instruments to hide, it works well. What I have a problem with is, that hiding in the arrange also hides in the mixer, where I like to have my 16 group outs visible sometimes without having in the arrangement.
Thanks for replying!


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## stigc56 (Dec 8, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> You could also set up buttons in a floating Environment window as part of your main screenset.
> 
> This is a Meta button set up to recall a screenset. You'd set up more of them, and they'd probably be smaller.
> 
> I guess the screenshot isn't particularly helpful other than to show what a floating window looks like, but there are different buttons with different styles. This would be a dedicated Environment layer.


I use Metagrid to recall that kind of things, works fine. Thanks!


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## stigc56 (Dec 8, 2019)

charlieclouser said:


> - I use Folder Track Stacks to make collapsable bricks with 16 VI tracks per Folder Stack, and have a key command assigned to expand / collapse the Folder Stacks, and I use color-coding and icons for each Folder Stack and the tracks within so everything matches.


Hi again, can't neither find the key command for expand / collapse folder stacks nor the switch to stop Automatic Bus Assignment! ;-(
Can you help again?


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## charlieclouser (Dec 8, 2019)

stigc56 said:


> Hi again, can't neither find the key command for expand / collapse folder stacks nor the switch to stop Automatic Bus Assignment! ;-(
> Can you help again?



The key commands relating to collapsing folder stacks are in the this screenshot - search the key commands window for "stack" to show them. The ones I use are the first two in the screenshot, but note that there are many others that may be useful to you.








The stuff relating to Automatic Management of Channel Strip Objects is in Project Settings > Audio > Channel Strips, and is shown in the this screenshot. Note that this won't prevent Logic from creating a single Master Volume fader object when you make a Folder Stack - but it will prevent all sorts of automatic creation / deletion of Aux objects and other crap that might mess up your precisely arranged Environment window. If you don't use the Environment the way I do this might not matter to you, but I'm still working in old-school Logic v4 mode over here!


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## stigc56 (Dec 8, 2019)

charlieclouser said:


> The key commands relating to collapsing folder stacks are in the this screenshot - search the key commands window for "stack" to show them. The ones I use are the first two in the screenshot, but note that there are many others that may be useful to you.
> So kind og you to help me. Thanks a lot.
> 
> 
> ...


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## IFM (Jan 5, 2020)

I just am finishing up my 2020 version of my main template. I figured out how to have nested folder stacks instead of summing stacks inside of folder stacks. Each section is a folder with several additional folders for each library.
Each library's section goes to an aux bus when I have reverb sends. I do like the idea of what Jay is using.

FYI If you want to know how to do this you create the folder outside of the one you want to insert it into and simply drag it into another folder.

That being said I haven't finalized if I am sticking to this or going back to Summing nested inside Folders yet.


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## IFM (Jan 7, 2020)

Oh but you first must make a summing stack inside a folder stack to get it to work...it's a bit of a PITA so I think I am going to just drop the nested folders and just have each major section in a folder.


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## David Kudell (Jan 26, 2020)

IFM said:


> Oh but you first must make a summing stack inside a folder stack to get it to work...it's a bit of a PITA so I think I am going to just drop the nested folders and just have each major section in a folder.


This is a great tip though! I am so happy to have found this. But is it me, or does the folder stack only want to go to the bottom of the folder that it's in?


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## David Kudell (Jan 26, 2020)

David Kudell said:


> This is a great tip though! I am so happy to have found this. But is it me, or does the folder stack only want to go to the bottom of the folder that it's in?


Ok, I found a workaround, you have to move all of the non-folder tracks below the folder track, so that the folder is at the top. 

I hope Apple improves folders in the next version, so it's easier to make folders-within-folders.


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## IFM (Sep 27, 2020)

David Kudell said:


> Ok, I found a workaround, you have to move all of the non-folder tracks below the folder track, so that the folder is at the top.
> 
> I hope Apple improves folders in the next version, so it's easier to make folders-within-folders.


I am re-redoing my template and this still works. I was still using summing nested inside stacks but now that I am breaking out stems with multi-output VIs (I don't do one track per articulation) summing stacks bus routing can get confusing so I'm going back to either this workaround or one stack per instrument group (Woodwinds, Brass, etc.).


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## dgburns (Sep 27, 2020)

I still use old school folders. I put my whole orch stuff in one, still. Inside that folder are track folders for sections etc, no summing folders.

What I discovered recently is that they changed LPX in 10.5.1 ( or was it 10.5?) where you now must have at least one track with midi/ audio on it or you can’t open the folder from outside it. Screenshots pointing to inside the folder still works, so I was able to get inside and make a small midi sequence and mute it. Now I can click on the folder and open it and get inside. Strange. Hopefully they are not thinking of doing away with folder tracks?


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## David Kudell (Sep 27, 2020)

IFM said:


> I am re-redoing my template and this still works. I was still using summing nested inside stacks but now that I am breaking out stems with multi-output VIs (I don't do one track per articulation) summing stacks bus routing can get confusing so I'm going back to either this workaround or one stack per instrument group (Woodwinds, Brass, etc.).


A couple of months ago I bought Cubase...I wanted to be able to work in both. It took me like a week to rebuild my template, but I really like having as many folders as I want. This is a feature Logic needs to add. That being said, there are things Cubase can't do that Logic does that I miss. I guess there's no such thing as a perfect DAW.


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## IFM (Sep 27, 2020)

David Kudell said:


> A couple of months ago I bought Cubase...I wanted to be able to work in both. It took me like a week to rebuild my template, but I really like having as many folders as I want. This is a feature Logic needs to add. That being said, there are things Cubase can't do that Logic does that I miss. I guess there's no such thing as a perfect DAW.


I have Cubase as well and you are right, pros and cons to each.


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## sourcefor (Sep 29, 2020)

David Kudell said:


> A couple of months ago I bought Cubase...I wanted to be able to work in both. It took me like a week to rebuild my template, but I really like having as many folders as I want. This is a feature Logic needs to add. That being said, there are things Cubase can't do that Logic does that I miss. I guess there's no such thing as a perfect DAW.


Yes I did the same, I am trying to like Cubans but it’s a bit cluttered to me..but we’ll see what the future holds!


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## IFM (Oct 2, 2020)

David Kudell said:


> A couple of months ago I bought Cubase...I wanted to be able to work in both. It took me like a week to rebuild my template, but I really like having as many folders as I want. This is a feature Logic needs to add. That being said, there are things Cubase can't do that Logic does that I miss. I guess there's no such thing as a perfect DAW.


Replying again to you. I’ve always had Cubase but been 90 in Logic. that may change for this project. I agree Apple need to do something about the folders issue. I found a bug too when rearranging stacks that caused them to combine no matter what you do. Got annoying quickly. I’ve got a small project to work on so I’m going to get my base template made including stem busses and see how it goes.


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## David Kudell (Oct 2, 2020)

IFM said:


> Replying again to you. I’ve always had Cubase but been 90 in Logic. that may change for this project. I agree Apple need to do something about the folders issue. I found a bug too when rearranging stacks that caused them to combine no matter what you do. Got annoying quickly. I’ve got a small project to work on so I’m going to get my base template made including stem busses and see how it goes.


Yes after the initial first week getting used to stuff, I’ve taken a liking to Cubase. I feel like the key editor/piano roll is easier to work in and that helps get better performances by fine tuning the CCs and velocities.


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## Yogevs (Oct 4, 2020)

I use track stacks (and minify whenever possible). I also use the HIDE feature and only unhide the tracks I need.


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## whinecellar (Oct 4, 2020)

Great thread. I built my first large template in Logic somewhere around 2008, and have been modifying it ever since. Back then it was based on old school folders, each its own instrument category, with a different screen set for each, triggered by a MIDI CC. So when I wanted to work with violins, I’d hit the “violins” button on my dedicated controller.

However, there are huge downsides to working in folders - primarily that you can never see the whole context of the project. There was also a nasty bug that existed forever where offline bounces of sub channels of a multi instrument would randomly include audio from other instruments.

Then after 25 years of begging, track stacks and hide groups finally came along and changed everything. So now, my template of around 900 tracks is what I always wanted. It collapses into just what I want to see, with each instrument group made visible at the touch of a color-coded and specifically-labeled button in my TouchOSC panel. That combined with screen sets makes it a breeze to see just what I want, and any combination thereof.

One other little tidbit that helps me: Every track has an empty region at bar 1 that I use for random notes (patch info for external synths, for example), and there are 2 side benefits to this aside from the notes themselves:

1. Color coding helps me stay visually organized

2. If I want to render that track by itself, I include that region so it will start at bar 1 no matter where the actual data is. 

In 27+ years of hard core Logic use, I’ve never been happier!


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## Petter Rong (Nov 17, 2020)

IFM said:


> I just am finishing up my 2020 version of my main template. I figured out how to have nested folder stacks instead of summing stacks inside of folder stacks. Each section is a folder with several additional folders for each library.
> Each library's section goes to an aux bus when I have reverb sends. I do like the idea of what Jay is using.
> 
> FYI If you want to know how to do this you create the folder outside of the one you want to insert it into and simply drag it into another folder.
> ...



I can't seem to get beyond layer 3 of folders. When I try to drag the track stack inside the third folder, it ends up in the second. Any ideas?


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## IFM (Nov 17, 2020)

Petter Rong said:


> I can't seem to get beyond layer 3 of folders. When I try to drag the track stack inside the third folder, it ends up in the second. Any ideas?


Ya there are some bugs with it, I stopped using this trick since it's not an official feature. I just have summing stacks nested inside one folder, but might even drop it further.


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## eakwarren (Nov 17, 2020)

I tried nested folders ala Cubase and found it actually slowed me down. I'm a fan of Spitfire's BBCSO templates and what worked for me was to create hidden groups for the various summing stacks: Winds, Brass, Keys, Perc, Strings, etc. including the Sends and Prints. Inside the stacks are my instrument tracks named in library - score order, also the sends and verbs.

Then I setup Metagrid on my iPad to navigate and articulate. The buttons on the left toggle (show/hide) each stack so I can select instruments and add regions. Once I've got regions, the middle buttons Hide Empty Tracks, Show All Tracks, Show Selected Tracks, Auto Zoom and Zoom Selection help me quickly navigate the project. I also use Metagrid to manage articulations.









View attachment Screen Recording 2020-11-17 at 2.47.02 PM.mp4


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## Carlos Lopez-Real (Nov 18, 2020)

whinecellar said:


> It collapses into just what I want to see, with each instrument group made visible at the touch of a color-coded and specifically-labeled button in my TouchOSC panel.


@whinecellar Hi Jim, I've just started to explore this approach, but am getting in a muddle over the best way to organise the groups to hide/show. e.g. for a Spitfire Studio Woodwinds flute, I initially thought to create one group that was all flutes, another group that was all Woodwinds, another group that was all the SF Studio stuff, and then make sure that this particular instrument was added to each of those groups. But maybe it's best to just keep things really simple, and not have an instrument assigned to more than one group - so here just make a decision as to what's most important, and maybe just stick with a 'flute' group. How do you approach this kind of thing? Thanks for any help!


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## whinecellar (Nov 18, 2020)

Carlos Lopez-Real said:


> @whinecellar Hi Jim, I've just started to explore this approach, but am getting in a muddle over the best way to organise the groups to hide/show. e.g. for a Spitfire Studio Woodwinds flute, I initially thought to create one group that was all flutes, another group that was all Woodwinds, another group that was all the SF Studio stuff, and then make sure that this particular instrument was added to each of those groups. But maybe it's best to just keep things really simple, and not have an instrument assigned to more than one group - so here just make a decision as to what's most important, and maybe just stick with a 'flute' group. How do you approach this kind of thing? Thanks for any help!



Hey Carlos, yeah, you’re probably overthinking it. I just have a track stack (drop down folder) for main groups: violins, violas, celli & basses, ensembles, winds, hi brass, low brass, etc. 

Within each, I break them up by specific instruments, and each type is color coded for quick visual ID. 

Hope that helps!


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## Carlos Lopez-Real (Nov 19, 2020)

whinecellar said:


> Hey Carlos, yeah, you’re probably overthinking it. I just have a track stack (drop down folder) for main groups: violins, violas, celli & basses, ensembles, winds, hi brass, low brass, etc.
> 
> Within each, I break them up by specific instruments, and each type is color coded for quick visual ID.
> 
> Hope that helps!


Hi Jim, yes that does help a lot. You're right, I'm overthinking it! Also, like anything with a template, I just need to get stuck in, set it up a little, work with it, tweak it etc - rather than trying to guess and figure the ideal thing out at the beginning.


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## emilio_n (Dec 15, 2020)

eakwarren said:


> I tried nested folders ala Cubase and found it actually slowed me down. I'm a fan of Spitfire's BBCSO templates and what worked for me was to create hidden groups for the various summing stacks: Winds, Brass, Keys, Perc, Strings, etc. including the Sends and Prints. Inside the stacks are my instrument tracks named in library - score order, also the sends and verbs.
> 
> Then I setup Metagrid on my iPad to navigate and articulate. The buttons on the left toggle (show/hide) each stack so I can select instruments and add regions. Once I've got regions, the middle buttons Hide Empty Tracks, Show All Tracks, Show Selected Tracks, Auto Zoom and Zoom Selection help me quickly navigate the project. I also use Metagrid to manage articulations.
> 
> ...


 I need to find a way to do something similar. I have Metagrid, but looks quite confusing to me.


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## eakwarren (Dec 15, 2020)

emilio_n said:


> I need to find a way to do something similar. I have Metagrid, but looks quite confusing to me.



It's worth spending some time reading the manual and playing around with it for a few days before starting to set up a large layout. The effort will pay off in spades. 

Another VI-C member recently asked about sharing my Metagrid viewsets. I'm not sure if you're using Logic, but the BBCSO:Core articulations are just CC32 midi commands so they should work in other DAWs. Happy to share as it's often easier to tweak something than stare at a blank page as a starting point. (Am I right composers? )

"*Here's my views* within Logic Pro 10.6 for navigation and articulations. I think you'll need to copy the views to your Dropbox in order for Metagrid to see them for import. You may want to keep an eye out for the soon to drop Metagrid v1.6.6 as discussed *here*, which will fix the default Logic 10.6 viewsets they ship. If you're still on LPX 10.5.x, you should be fine with their current viewsets.

My Albion ONE/BDT switches are set for my instrument patches using UACC KS. My BBCSO:Core switches are set using CC32 in my *Spitfire Player patches*.

Enjoy! 

Edit: Added my *Albion ONE Kontakt 6 multis*."


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## emilio_n (Dec 15, 2020)

eakwarren said:


> Happy to share as it's often easier to tweak something than stare at a blank page as a starting point. (Am I right composers? )


This is great!!!
I am using other libraries but BBCSO too so will be a great starting point!
I didn’t know that is possible to share the config files!

thanks is a lot in advance! 😉


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## stigc56 (Dec 16, 2020)

emilio_n said:


> This is great!!!
> I am using other libraries but BBCSO too so will be a great starting point!
> I didn’t know that is possible to share the config files!
> 
> thanks is a lot in advance! 😉


Metagrid rocks! I use it ALL the time. Cubase, Nuendo, Logic, Word - all Adobe ......


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## Petter Rong (Jan 4, 2021)

IFM said:


> Ya there are some bugs with it, I stopped using this trick since it's not an official feature. I just have summing stacks nested inside one folder, but might even drop it further.


Did a test today, for some reason I didn't get the same problem with only a max of 3 folders. I stopped at 100, but seems endless. Despite that you can't really organize/identify a single folder inside the conundrum to control with something like a Streamdeck or MIDI controller, I think I will definitely use this feature in the future


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## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 11, 2022)

Carlos Lopez-Real said:


> Hi Jim, yes that does help a lot. You're right, I'm overthinking it! Also, like anything with a template, I just need to get stuck in, set it up a little, work with it, tweak it etc - rather than trying to guess and figure the ideal thing out at the beginning.


i could not improve my template more than going trial and error. And now i am even taking notes. ONe has to think before doing, but in other hand thinking too much leads to a scenario thast never happens and you forgot while composing for a deadline for today lol at least i got in this, and found my self ridiculous. I setup many pages of stream deck, but start to think that two are enough, and just for things that needs visual icons very clear: for example: apply transform preset 1,2,3,4,5


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## samphony (Feb 11, 2022)

I hope Logic introduces a more modern and flexible alternative to fixed settings like Busses and transform sets. 1000 tracks limit.


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## jcrosby (Feb 11, 2022)

stigc56 said:


> Metagrid rocks!


I concur!! And IIRC @eakwarren was the one who pointed me to it. Absolutely fantastic tool that should be getting even more useful soon enough..


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## Emanuel Fróes (Feb 11, 2022)

eakwarren said:


> eakwarren said:
> 
> 
> > I tried nested folders ala Cubase and found it actually slowed me down. I'm a fan of Spitfire's BBCSO templates and what worked for me was to create hidden groups for the various summing stacks: Winds, Brass, Keys, Perc, Strings, etc. including the Sends and Prints. Inside the stacks are my instrument tracks named in library - score order, also the sends and verbs.
> ...


This on video I do with hide unselected, if i remember. And is the first step to survive a big template 

Now i would love to have a "go to track", instead of scrooling


another thing: i discovered the full screen, never tried full screen haha I use this for a very long time but got intrigued by the way your video looks and searched this. Living and learning...


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## ALittleNightMusic (Feb 12, 2022)

I just set up a 500 track template and this is my approach - maybe it'll help somebody. I have setup a large template in Cubase and have gotten used to the ability to nest folders within folders to keep things organized. Because Logic doesn't _officially_ support that, I've organized things in a different - possibly better - way.

*A Few Essentials*
I found these items are VERY helpful in improving the workflow with large templates in Logic.

Babylonwaves Art Conductor - only if you are a one track per instrument type of person. These save a lot of time - 95% of the time. The other 5%, the maps either don't work or are incomplete and you'll need to make your own.
Metagrid - or any sort of similar controller interface, like Streamdeck
PlugSearch - Run, don't walk, to buy this. It is incredible. It is better than any native search functionality I've come across in any DAW. This is for a few reasons - not only can you search for plugins, but you can also search through articulation maps, which makes setting up a large template go way faster. In addition, you can setup favorites that can be recalled instantly through MIDI - so for example, I can say Pro-Q3 and Pro-C2 are a couple of audio insert favorites.
Monogram CC - Any sort of MIDI controller would work, including Metagrid (especially when Pro is out), but I really like and recommend the Monogram CC. Remember the PlugSearch favorites? Well now I can setup a button on the Monogram CC to fire off a MIDI message and it'll automatically insert Pro-Q3 on any track I want. Want to tap tempo? Have it mapped to another button. Extremely fast for workflow purposes.
*Organizing*
I like to plan out my stem busses and create those first (including FX busses if you are so inclined to keep this tidy in your mixer). Instead of summing stacks, I only use Folder stacks (as does Paul Thompson for his 1000 track template). Route those appropriately to the previously created busses.






*Groups*
You have to rely on Groups in Logic if you want a large template IMO. But because you have something like 64 groups, this scales pretty well. What I do is make sure that none of the group-specific settings are checked since I only want to use Groups for visibility purposes. Add the appropriate tracks to the groups.






*Group Toggling with Metagrid*
Logic's group visibility works like an on / off switch per group. It lacks the ability to have an exclusive on for a particular group (like only show this group), but with something like Metagrid, it is still pretty fast to get what you need. You can also create a "clean start" template which hides all tracks and then you can just unhide the groups you need as you need them to keep things tidy.






*Screensets*
Most folks know the beauty of Logic's screensets. They're very powerful as they can track scrolling state, zoom state, etc. You can also have multiple arrange windows, multiple mixers, multiple editors, etc. open. For example, I have a set that shows two mixers - one only shows my AUX busses for easy top-level control and the other shows the same tracks at the Arrange window. I have another set that shows me the score editor on top with the piano roll editor on bottom, both in Link mode so I can edit regions using notation or MIDI notes at the same time.

*A Few Final Thoughts (coming from Cubase)*
Cubase has a lot of functionality when it comes to managing large templates - visibility agents, nested folders, macros, etc. However, with the above approach, I don't miss any of that in Logic. In fact, I would say my Logic template is perhaps even better for a few reasons.

For one, the lack of nested folders forced me to rethink my organization and I prioritized "most used" libraries in their own groups while less used libraries went into "extra" groups. This helps me avoid choice paralysis caused by GAS because it focuses my options. Could I have done this in Cubase? Of course, but the flexibility of nesting didn't force me to think this way.

Additionally, Logic loads WAY faster - like a tenth of the speed - for the same size template. It is also smart in that it will keep FX plugins on AUX sends disabled unless there's audio going to them, which saves on CPU - Cubase doesn't do this.

Using Groups feels more robust than Visibility Agents, which tend to "break" if you add tracks to your template (because they get out of sync). With Logic, since visibility is based on Groups, you can keep adding tracks in the future and everything will still work as expected. Lastly, with PlugSearch, plugin loading is so much faster for me in Logic (with my favorites setup) that even the search function in Cubase feels annoyingly slow now.

Add to all of this some of the "as good or better" benefits of Logic, and it feels like there's no compromise for large templates compared to Cubase IMO.


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## jbuhler (Feb 12, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I just set up a 500 track template and this is my approach - maybe it'll help somebody. I have setup a large template in Cubase and have gotten used to the ability to nest folders within folders to keep things organized. Because Logic doesn't _officially_ support that, I've organized things in a different - possibly better - way.
> 
> *A Few Essentials*
> I found these items are VERY helpful in improving the workflow with large templates in Logic.
> ...


Thanks for posting this!


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## jonathanwright (Feb 13, 2022)

I’m waiting for Metagrid 2 as well, so as a stopgap I’ve been using Keyboard Maestro to trigger groups.

I have a little floating macro palette at the top right of my screen which I use. It’s actually been a surprisingly quick workflow, I might stick with it.


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## tmhuud (Feb 13, 2022)

Bring it on! Metagrid, StreamDesk! Great combo.


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## samphony (Feb 15, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I just set up a 500 track template and this is my approach - maybe it'll help somebody. I have setup a large template in Cubase and have gotten used to the ability to nest folders within folders to keep things organized. Because Logic doesn't _officially_ support that, I've organized things in a different - possibly better - way.
> 
> *A Few Essentials*
> I found these items are VERY helpful in improving the workflow with large templates in Logic.
> ...



Great post!

Don’t forget that there are also a lot of newer group related key commands to select tracks. Combine this with your approach you can quickly show/hide and select certain groups of tracks. 

Still I hope we’ll see some more enhancements in the future like show tracks with regions at playhead or in cycle. 

The feature hide unselected tracks seems a lazy stop gap and doesn’t work under certain conditions. 

Also if your template gets corrupted and you have to import all tracks there is still no way to import groups. 

But still one of the most worthy approaches to templates in Logic.


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## stonzthro (Feb 15, 2022)

I used to use a really complex folder/groups system with show groups buttons on a touch screen. Now I just unhide all the tracks, add regions to all the tracks I need, then Hide unused. Mucho easy and never breaks or needs adjusting when I alter my template after samples purchases. (Yes, I realize this was already mentioned in part).


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