# Oh what a synth! The new Korg KRONOS Music Workstation - Awesome!



## germancomponist (Jan 14, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1o2Woa8PBk


----------



## José Herring (Jan 14, 2011)

That's very nice actually.

I don't know about you but I miss the days where everything wasn't on my computer and I actually had instruments around.

Can't wait to check this out.

Jose


----------



## lux (Jan 14, 2011)

yeah, i miss those days alot too. 

Its like having your life without having our face pointing out at the screen every second. You can watch images, pictures, furnitures, people's faces, dogs, landscapes, whatever. And playing.


----------



## jlb (Jan 14, 2011)

I don't miss the days of having a load of dusty keyboards around at all! Love having it all in the computer!

jlb


----------



## RiffWraith (Jan 14, 2011)

jlb @ Sat Jan 15 said:


> I don't miss the days of having a load of dusty keyboards around at all! Love having it all in the computer!



So, I guess this isn't you, huh?

http://synthmania.com/Misc/Synth%20Mania%20studio%20-%20November%2021,%202010/Synth%20Mania%20studio%20-%20November%2021,%202010%20068.JPG (http://synthmania.com/Misc/Synth%20Mani ... %20068.JPG)


----------



## midphase (Jan 14, 2011)

I can appreciate that for a live rig this is certainly a cool thing to have....but for studio rats like us...do any of these sounds stand up to the likes of Ivory, Scarbee EP, and Omnisphere?


----------



## dpasdernick (Jan 14, 2011)

midphase @ Fri Jan 14 said:


> I can appreciate that for a live rig this is certainly a cool thing to have....but for studio rats like us...do any of these sounds stand up to the likes of Ivory, Scarbee EP, and Omnisphere?



This is a great point. I grew up with the synth revolution in the 80's where every 6 months there was a paradigm shift. Analog, FM, LA Synthesis. Today I lust after the Fairlight, Synclav and PPG. Then I realize that Omnisphere probably sounds 100 times better, has more patches, and weighs less. 

Still there is something to be said for the feel of a new keyboard and the glow of an LED light in a darkened studio...

BTW anybody know how much the Kronos will be?

Darren


----------



## MichaelL (Jan 14, 2011)

BTW anybody know how much the Kronos will be?


----------



## MichaelL (Jan 14, 2011)

[quote="dpasdernick BTW anybody know how much the Kronos will be?

Darren[/quote]


Sorry that last response got away.....

Probably a lot for what will most likely be a very fancy controller for us "studio rats."


----------



## snowleopard (Jan 14, 2011)

I think this is a great step. I think in the future though someone needs to make a workstation that has 3-4 touch screens with an interface to software synths. Hence, imagine if Kontakt, or Omnisphere, or EWQL were available for this KORG, and all the parameters were touch sensitive on the screen(s). That's what I see in the future. 

I'm old enough to miss some of the good old days. I would imagine that the Synclavier still sounds very impressive, simply because of the way it was built with all the DACs. Though you won't get the sound diversity out of it you will with Omnisphere or Kontakt. And I still argue that the Kurzweil KSP8 reverb sounds as good, or better in some ways than any plug I've used. Now, maybe not as _real_ as some Altiberb convolutions, nope. But the early reflections and tails are so purely wonderful. 

Also, even though the sounds of an old synthesizer can easily be topped by soft synths, there's something organic and true about playing an actual synthesizer with knobs, sliders and buttons. You have an interface that allows you to quickly alter the sound to augment your desires and playing style. This can be done almost instantly on an actual synth for constant gratification on an aesthetic level. But this can take many minutes after a long period figuring out how to do it on a soft synth. A soft synth like Zebra may be able to get many more sounds than an Access Virus, or Waldorf Q, but I can get engrossed sitting down making sounds with my Q for hours. I cant do that with Zebra. I get fatigued. 

When someone makes the workstation with multiple touch screens that can load soft synths, I'll be there.


----------



## Hal (Jan 15, 2011)

i dont know why i am not impressed...seems like i stopped being impressed with workstations may be because i stopped playing life
doesnt look to me like the ultimate studio gear 
i have a korg triton pro x and a korg pa 50 .
my opinion would be nice big hi rez color screen.

i am sure this is not gonna be less then 3500$ sure less for the 5octave version
well in studio with kontakt,omisphere,play and blabla its not a revolution ... for live purposes well i dont know....


----------



## midphase (Jan 15, 2011)

This is a bit O.T. but...

I do admit that I have gearlust for keyboards that I couldn't afford the first time out when I was a teenager. I don't really produce dance music or even overtly electronic soundtracks, but I would love to get my hands on the following just for fun and nostalgia:

Yamaha DX7 (not the II version, the original...sheesh)
Roland Jupiter 8 (the one that Howard Jones played in the subway)
Kurzweil 250 (Stevie Wonder...need I say more?)
Oberheim OB-8 (so that I can play Van Halen Jump properly)
Oberheim Matrix 12 (all those blinking lights!!! it's like a xmas tree)
Fairlight CMI (the original with the monochrome CRT so that I can look like Nick Rhodes)
Emulator II (to emulate Depeche Mode)

I did manage to get my grubby hands on the holy grail from that era, a Synclavier. Unfortunately a few years ago I had to liquidate the massive racks that came with it and all I am left with is the front end keyboard controller...it was a sad day!


----------



## Justus (Jan 15, 2011)

I don't need zillions of submenus when playing live.
Nord Stage II sounds lovely and has nice big knobs


----------



## José Herring (Jan 15, 2011)

My workflow was just a lot better when I had things housed outside of my computer. Had outboard synths and samplers routed through a mixer that mixdown to a tape deck. It just seemed to work out better. So much better than I'm now considering ways to do that again, if that's even possible.


----------



## snowleopard (Jan 15, 2011)

Kays - If you ever want to unload your Synclavier keyboard (VPK I presume?) let me know. 

Meanwhile, here's what I was talking about as far as a furturistic super synth workstation:


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 15, 2011)

What is more cool?

To sit in a real plane and fly real or to fly with a flight simulator on your computer?


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 15, 2011)

josejherring @ Sat Jan 15 said:


> My workflow was just a lot better when I had things housed outside of my computer. Had outboard synths and samplers routed through a mixer that mixdown to a tape deck. It just seemed to work out better. So much better than I'm now considering ways to do that again, if that's even possible.



+1


----------



## snowleopard (Jan 15, 2011)

This is sort of a two way street to me. There was something about sitting at 4-5 synths and working with them. As I mentioned before, having an interface such as that gave nice constant gratification. Like I was connected to my instruments. 

Working with the computer, I get many more sounds, a cleaner sound almost all the time, and it's cheaper, lighter, etc. But it's colder, less interactive, less instant. 

Here's a guy who still held on to a heap of synths, and is very connected to them: 

http://www.youtube.com/user/mik300z#p/u/48/rDjXGU75_P0


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 16, 2011)

Cool!

Come on guys, arn`t you missing somewhat when working only with a computer? :mrgreen: :roll:


----------



## midphase (Jan 16, 2011)

For Snow or anyone else interested:

http://www.synclav.com/NED-systems-home-new.html

Yes, my keyboard is the V/PK one which is essentially a repurposed Sequential Prophet 5 keyboard.


----------



## snowleopard (Jan 18, 2011)

You mean ProphetT-8. But yes. 

Yeah, I know John. Well, sort of. Talked to him a couple of times. Just could never come up with that much cash, and dreamed of piecing together my own system. But if I did have the money and were serious about dropping that much, I would definitely go through him.


----------



## midphase (Jan 18, 2011)

Yeah...that's the problem...all this vintage gear is way too pricey and it makes no sense.

You can still find K250's on Craigslist for $500 or less (I got me a Kurzweil MIDIBoard for $100), and if I could locate an original Fairlight CMI for $1000 or less I'd probably grab it.

You can also easily find Sequential Prophet 2000's on eBay very cheap.

Funny how some gear is worth next to nothing, and some is very prized. œ 7   ÅYÓ 7   ÅZ1 7   ÅZ 7   Å]Í 7   Å]Ø 7   Æ;& 7   Æ;f 7   ÆM 7   ÆM{ 7   ÆMñ 7   ÆN? 7   Æi 7   Æi4 7   ÆªÐ 7   Æ«  7   Ç\ 7   Ç¾ 7   ÇC' 7


----------



## chimuelo (Jan 19, 2011)

Glad to see they figured out a way to repackage all of the DSP hardware left laying around from the abandonned Oasys DSP decade.

It was too pricey for most folks and since it didn't make coffee, and breastfeed the modern crowd of complainers, it was dropped.
Sad to see such a great company caving in more and more everyear to the virtual world of convenience where sound takes second seat.


----------



## Ed (Jan 19, 2011)

Sounds terrible.

Just sayin'.

When it got to the orchestra section I just about fell over. Nice screen, but everything else is disgustingly terrible. 

Just get a laptop, Omnisphere and a keyboard. Done. Even for live use I don't see why people would want this, unless its just easier to transport and set up, that's the only reason I can see certainly not because it sounds good.

How much they charging again for this hunk of crap?


----------



## snowleopard (Jan 20, 2011)

Tough crowd, tough crowd! I do see your point though. Really, a controller and a laptop with Omnisphere will get you a long, long way. 



> There was a window in the mid 90's where 80's analog synths weren't worth anything. I still kick myself for not picking up a Jupiter 8 for $200 when I had the chance.


Oh my! I so feel your pain. I remember seeing an ARP Quadra for about that much in a pawn shop. Also saw a Chroma in another pawn shop. Saw an OBx in another, didn't buy either. Friend of mine and I saw a Jupiter-6 once. They wanted $500 for it. We thought it was overpriced. Go back to the mid-90's and everything was samples and digital and nobody wanted those things. They were dumped almost everywhere. I did however pick up a Chroma Polaris that way. One of the nicest sounding analog synths ever, if I may say. But if only I knew then...

Meanwhile, at NAMM Eric showed the OMG-1. Now that's along the lines of what I'm expecting to see in the future. I realize this is a one-off. But he's definitely thinking in the right direction.


----------



## synthetic (Jan 20, 2011)

I wasn't that impressed. Synth sounds were dated, piano had no character, organ wasn't as good as the soft synth in Logic. Can't compete with a computer-based rig.


----------



## dpasdernick (Jan 21, 2011)

Ed @ Wed Jan 19 said:


> Sounds terrible.
> 
> Just sayin'.
> 
> ...



Omnisphere will not get you a 4.7 gigabyte piano. It actually won;t get you any kind of realstic piano sound (that isn't on fire ) Plus you have to add in the cost of an audio card and something like Cubase in order to get closer to apples to apples (The Kronos can record digital audio as well.) Plus the Kronos looks beautiful. and won't get a virus.

I understand the point of "for less money you could have way more sonically". there's just something about hardware for me that feels more tangible. I only own 1 hardware synth (a Roland XP-80) and only use it as a controller but I have found myself recently lusting after hardware. The new Fairlight at 19,000 with the Keyboard could be considered crazy for some.

I think alot of this depends upon your age. As Kays mentioned above, riding the wave of synth innovation through the 80's was magic. Every 6 months a new paradigm shift in synthesis. Sort of like the early days of VST's where EW, NI, Spectrasonics were all pushing the envelopes. Now we have 60 gigabyte libraries of guitars alone. It is harder for comapanies like Roland and Korg to compete. 

Still I'm glad that Korg seems to be thinking in the right direction. It's Roland that concerns me. They really need to axe the Fantom line and move forward IMHO. Digital accordians? Hmmm... 

2 cents,

Darren


----------



## Ed (Jan 21, 2011)

Well sure if you want piano then you have to have something else alongside OmniSphere, maybe a piano VST and Trillian or something and for the orchestra you could just pick up any budget orchestra VST to beat this thing, but really is it worth all that money when you can just use a VST on a laptop connected to a keyboard?

The only reason to get this is because its easier to lug around and set up, not because it sounds good. For that use however Im sure its great and I understand why they need to pretend the sounds are wonderfull, but they aren't.




> Plus you have to add in the cost of an audio card and something like Cubase in order to get closer to apples to apples



If its live you dont need a DAW, if you're using it in a studio you can easily buy a PC, DAW and a great soundcard for what they will charge you for this thing.

I never use the sounds on my Trition, but its a great sturdy controller keyboard and that probably costs peanuts now.


----------



## shadoe42 (Jan 21, 2011)

depends on how you define peanuts really. in pawn shop here there is abeat up triton LE going for just under 300. the 60ish key version(62?) right next to it is an M1 with broken joystick for 200 heh.


----------



## chimuelo (Jan 21, 2011)

Native just doesn't work live unless you have a singer who wears a sequenced dress and asks everybody what town they're from, and how's your steak, while the poor native keyboard player loads another scene of pre recorded dancy prancy music in perfect Lady GaGa time......
But if one had such luxuries of time and is a better engineer than performer, and never improvises, PianoTeq Pro alongside of any native app is a realtime, fast, great sounding laptop solution.
It is my go to Upright, Wurlitzer and Muted Hohner D6 choice regardless of venue.
PhysMods are just a treat once the sounds are captured.

I personally want Modartt and NI to make us the ultimate realtime PhysMod Sampler.
Analog synths, DSP and hardware effects, and that app would be a God send.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 21, 2011)

> You can still find K250's on Craigslist for $500 or less (I got me a Kurzweil MIDIBoard for $100), and if I could locate an original Fairlight CMI for $1000 or less I'd probably grab it.
> 
> You can also easily find Sequential Prophet 2000's



I have Prophet 2002+ along with the entire MIDI City sample library of floppies for it. It's been sitting in a rack without power going to it for years. Absence makes the heart grow fonder; those samples sound like poo compared to what we're used to today. Really, it's not an instrument with charm that we're missing today.

And I have two broken K250s in my garage. 

Also, you mentioned wanting an original DX-7. Well, I have a TX-7 in my closet, and NI FM7 plays its sounds perfectly - only it sounds much better.

There are old instruments with a character that you can't duplicate in recreations, but I think they're mostly analog.


----------



## madbulk (Jan 21, 2011)

Wow does this ever not get my gear lust happening. Was jealous of Rudess's trill though.

Bunch of semi apropos thoughts...

I miss my jx-10. But not really much else. DX's, blah. FM8 kills. Though the SY stuff was pretty kool. I sold those last.

And oh man, this is star trek geek like, but... I'm pretty sure Jump was an OBX or OBXa.
Of all the things you listed, Kays, I think the OB's are the most appealing to me now. 

Isn't the fairlight coming out on ipad soon? I wanted CMI, Synclavier and K250's when they were 20k a piece, but now? No. 
K250 a little bit.

It's like Nick said. Hip Hop producers wanting that old ensoniq sound? That stuff slays me. Maybe I'm missing something. Maybe a lot. I know a guy who's all about the EMU's. If you fall in love with a filter, that's gonna be you. Trying to find a replacement piece of gear that works for the rest of your life.

Would way rather have a clean minimoog than anything sample based.


----------



## synthetic (Jan 21, 2011)

Analog synths are a whole different story. Nothing in software sounds like a good analog synth. I was jamming with my Minimoog and modular last night and it sounded awesome. 

I do think that my old TX802 sounded better than NI's version. More beef to the sound. Maybe you could add it with some more plug-ins but I didn't think it sounded better. Thinner, IMO. But I didn't use FM sounds often enough to justify keeping it. (And didn't want to!) 

Let's have an analog party at my studio, I'll convert you all.


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 21, 2011)

synthetic @ Fri Jan 21 said:


> Analog synths are a whole different story. Nothing in software sounds like a good analog synth.



+1


> Let's have an analog party at my studio, I'll convert you all.



Smile

But I have to say: While I was experimenting to use Kontakt as a synthesizer I got very interesting results, *only with one sample*. (You know my thread where I posted the Taiko Organs?)

With the same sample I did some cool synthesizer sounds too, and this is for sure very cool. I will post this synth very soon, hope this weekend.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 21, 2011)

> Analog synths are a whole different story.



As I've posted before, I listened to the digitally-controlled analog synth in my EWI 3020m module years ago and never used it...until recently, when I plugged it into a tiny Peavey keyboard amp I have.

I couldn't believe how big it sounds. It's a great addition.


----------



## madbulk (Jan 21, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Jan 21 said:


> > Analog synths are a whole different story.
> 
> 
> As I've posted before, I listened to the digitally-controlled analog synth in my EWI 3020m module years ago and never used it...until recently, when I plugged it into a tiny Peavey keyboard amp I have.
> I couldn't believe how big it sounds. It's a great addition.


Ha. I swear, I saw in the portal that NB was the last post here and thought (self importantly) "Uh oh, Nick is gonna point out that my beloved JX10 was digitally controlled and therefore a pedestrian choice."


----------



## snowleopard (Jan 21, 2011)

Well, to be honest my interest in a Synclavier is mostly for the cachet. Just to have that once unattainable, cool looking synth sitting in my studio. The impossibly expensive monster I dreamed of in my youth. The other reason is the unique additive FM sounds it had were pretty darned cool. 

I had a Yamaha FS1r. I always thought it had more balls than FM8. Though I love FM8, I really do, and I don't regret selling the FS1r because even with the software it was very difficult to program. 

Still think a workstation with touch screens and a few knobs and sliders that can run software like Kontakt, Omnisphere, Absynth, etc. is the future.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 21, 2011)

Brian, the only time you'll see my fangs are when people post conservative politics. I'd never put down your synth choice.


----------



## chimuelo (Jan 21, 2011)

FWIW the FS1R Electric Pianos from Hollow Sun are thick and juicy. I was surprised as I liked the FS1R better than the TX FM layered stuff.
IMHO FM creations can be sampled well since there's really no motion.
These EP's blend well with Analog Synth layers as well as Modular Waldorf Oscillators being swept by LFO's or BiPolar Retriggered Envelopes.

And the best toys are always Digitally controlled Analog units.
Jim Gamble has some really incredible rigs based on this philosophy.

I would like to get my hands on a Kronos and see what's up.
The guys involved in its development are the same guys from Korg that did the Oasys PCI and DSP based keyboards, and these guys are top shelf engineers.
Perhaps maybe the synth just needs to be tweaked a little more.
I remember the first Oberheim XPanders' presets made it sound like a toy next to the OBX and OBXa's but in no time cassette tapes with new presets were knocking down doors everywhere.


----------



## snowleopard (Jan 21, 2011)

I have to wonder, if Roland brought the Jupiter-8 back, only adding MIDI, and velocity and after touch, but otherwise the same guts, and sold it for $5,000, do you think it would sell? What about $4,000? 

What about Oberheim and the OBXa? 

Yamaha and the CS-80?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 21, 2011)

It depends on what you call "selling." By our definition, probably; by a Japanese company's definition, probably not.

A friend who used to work for Panasonic Pro Audio once told me that Japan doesn't want to hear about it unless you're going to order 1000.


----------



## snowleopard (Jan 22, 2011)

Do you think they could sell $1000 JP-8's? OBXa's? CS-80's? I wonder. Food for thought. 

Dave Smith seems to be doing okay with the Prophet-08. But I don't know if he's sold 300 of them, or 3000? In theory he could bring back the Prophet-5, or 10, or T-8 as well... 

8)


----------



## NYC Composer (Jan 22, 2011)

midphase @ Sat Jan 15 said:


> This is a bit O.T. but...
> 
> I do admit that I have gearlust for keyboards that I couldn't afford the first time out when I was a teenager. I don't really produce dance music or even overtly electronic soundtracks, but I would love to get my hands on the following just for fun and nostalgia:
> 
> ...



I owned a DX-7, K 250, an OBX-A w/hardware sequencer and drum machine (and dozens of sound chips), 5 or 6 Roland rack mounts from the 700 series (including 45 disks I BOUGHT), a Micromoog, a Polymoog, an Akai s 900 and 612,a Hammond M-3, a Rhodes, blah blah blah blah. Don't miss any of it. Love what I have now.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 22, 2011)

> Dave Smith seems to be doing okay with the Prophet-08



I'm sure, but the difference between him and the Yamahas of this world is that for them the test is "can we get a bigger return on our money somewhere else" - hence the minimum of 1000. That's for reorders too, by the way - they'd kill a product if it wasn't going to sell another 1000.


----------



## adg21 (Jan 23, 2011)

It's beyond me why Roland, Korg, Yamaha, Oberheim etc don't manufacture old synths anymore. There is clearly a market for them.


snowleopard @ Sat Jan 22 said:


> I have to wonder, if Roland brought the Jupiter-8 back, only adding MIDI, and velocity and after touch, but otherwise the same guts, and sold it for $5,000, do you think it would sell? What about $4,000?
> 
> What about Oberheim and the OBXa?
> 
> Yamaha and the CS-80?


One can only dream. A mint Jupiter-8 (you're talking brand new) would fly off the shelf at $5000. They go for $7000 mint.
If they weren't such (rare) antiques they'd be cheaper too. I wish


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 23, 2011)

As a side note: I think in the past when there were no software synths, the users did many more own sound programming than now. 

Maybe because the softsynths have thousends and more patches?


----------



## dpasdernick (Jan 23, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Jan 22 said:


> > Dave Smith seems to be doing okay with the Prophet-08
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure, but the difference between him and the Yamahas of this world is that for them the test is "can we get a bigger return on our money somewhere else" - hence the minimum of 1000. That's for reorders too, by the way - they'd kill a product if it wasn't going to sell another 1000.



Nick's quote "can we get a bigger return on our money somewhere else" is the nail on the head. The boutique synth pioneers of yesterday and today are where we have seen, and hopefully still will see, real innovation. The rest are big business and as much as there are passionate musicians and engineers working for them the bottom line is the almighty dollar. If they can make more money retrofitting their hardware to make hearing aids they'll do it. Look at poor EMU. Once kings of the sampling world and now, since bought by Creative, a shadow of their former self.

As far as bringing back a Jupiter 8 for 5K that's a tough one. I think your first hour would be "Wow" the second hour "Only a few waveforms" and the rest "what have I done to my bank account?" (of course you could still just look at it and get your money's worth )

Darren


----------



## adg21 (Jan 23, 2011)

dpasdernick @ Sun Jan 23 said:


> As far as bringing back a Jupiter 8 for 5K that's a tough one. I think your first hour would be "Wow" the second hour "Only a few waveforms" and the rest "what have I done to my bank account?" (of course you could still just look at it and get your money's worth )
> 
> Darren



*head in hand*


----------



## José Herring (Jan 23, 2011)

germancomponist @ Sun Jan 23 said:


> As a side note: I think in the past when there were no software synths, the users did many more own sound programming than now.
> 
> Maybe because the softsynths have thousends and more patches?



I think it depends on the era. In the 70's there was a lot more user programming because you had to. In the 80's with the advent of the DX7, the Roland D50 and the KorgM1 there was a lot less programming and presets ruled the day. It was a dark time in music history.


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 23, 2011)

josejherring @ Sun Jan 23 said:


> germancomponist @ Sun Jan 23 said:
> 
> 
> > As a side note: I think in the past when there were no software synths, the users did many more own sound programming than now.
> ...



+1

Programming sounds was and is much more than only to create a new sound, it is a good training for your ears, to listen much more critical to audio in general. And the better you know to build a sound from its individual parts, the better you also learn/know how to do you (other) audio mixes best. At some point the mix developes as something self-evident. You know what I mean?


----------



## chimuelo (Jan 23, 2011)

The only reason hardware doesn't sell as much is because there are more indoor users than there are performers.
Realtime isn't needed at home, and since there's no improvisation, the zippers that make Native an indoor solution aren't a big deal.

Native live is a no go unless its sample based since that's the only area where I see an increase in development year after year.
Sure there are some great indoor synths, but they will never have the sound quality of a hardware Analog synth where real electronic circuitry is used.

Live performers cannot have load times or zippers, and the Filters must at least attempt to go below C2 or they are useless. Once a Native developer can emulate this, I will consider using one, but even then, changing the delay rate of a Native effect introduces artifacts, and forget about even changing the decay on any Native reverb.

So maybe in a few more years after the profits have been made real development not based on " consumers " can be addressed.
Until then, get an Analog, or at least a hardware DSP synth where you can load without waitng, or twist a knob w/o those grotesque zippers ruining your sound.

And FWIW there are great developments happening as we speak, but their numbers are manufactured in lots of 100. This causes the indoor guys to not be interested as the price is expensive, but for performers the price is a sacrifice for a noticable differnce in sound quality and function.

Below are the founding fathers gathering at the Soniccore booth where Solaris is being sold. The first 100 are already being manufactured and shipped from Germany now. These synths are the apex of DSP development and use 96k processing across the entire range of frequency spectrum, so these are as close to emulating a real Analog filter as you can get.
Because the developers worked at Moog and SeqCir they are quite familiar with seperate Oscillator glides, and all of the imperfections that make Analog King.

Tom Oberheim, Roger Linn, Joel Bertini, Dave Smith, John Bowen.........these guys are the only cats that can even bring us a breath of fatness in this thin consumer world we are being swallowed up by.
If you have a real synth, hold onto it, as you can see these guys aren't getting any younger.

I won't even buy a synth from a guy with a full head of hair.


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 23, 2011)

chimuelo @ Mon Jan 24 said:


> Live performers cannot have load times or zippers, and the Filters must at least attempt to go below C2 or they are useless. Once a Native developer can emulate this, I will consider using one, but even then, changing the delay rate of a Native effect introduces artifacts... .



Interesting point!

Can you perhaps post a short demo, done with an analog synth?


----------



## chimuelo (Jan 23, 2011)

pm


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 23, 2011)

Looking over what I said, I think I should make it clear that Yamaha has made a whole lot of great products over the years and I'm not trying to paint them as evil capitalist pigs. I still have the RX-15 drum machine, TX-7, and - although it's not the same level -- FB-01 I bought around 1985-7, and they work just like new when I plug them in (not that I do plug them other than for fun...). They and some other Yamaha stuff I no longer own served me really well at the time.

The point is that big companies aren't set up for things that are too small. Small companies don't have to make as much money with their money.


----------



## adg21 (Jan 24, 2011)

chimuelo @ Sun Jan 23 said:


> The only reason hardware doesn't sell as much is because there are more indoor users than there are performers.
> .....
> Sure there are some great indoor synths, but they will never have the sound quality of a hardware Analog synth where real electronic circuitry is used.



Exactly but I don't think most people are taking their fragile heavy prophet-5's, jupiter 8's, cs80s on ther road anymore are they? Isn't most of this stuff studio bound now anyway? 
Sound quality is everything and comparing arturia or korg legacy plugins to the real deal you can tell the difference instantly. I'm not speaking as an old fuddyduddy. People (increasingly younger generation) pine for this gear. Maybe it's too expensive to make, or it's the stance these companies have on product development, or maybe they really don't think there is a market. I don't think looking at Dave Smith Prophet-08 sales is a good indication, it's not a 'true' Prophet and consumers will always be aware of that. I think if Roland was to make brand new Jupiter-4,6,and 8's with the exact components as before, or Yamaha's cs80 or Sequential Circuits Prophet-5 or Korg's MS20 they would fly off the shelf. No replicas or upgrades (except possibly midi), just more of the same.


----------



## chimuelo (Jan 24, 2011)

Exactamente NickyB...
I was nothing but a Yamaha guy back in the early '80's. I came back from Nippon with a KX88, QX-1, TX816, MFD-1, DMP-7 and 3 x SPX90's.
We usually got great pay in those days, and management already has a container so the shipping was free. We would use the gear and if we didn't like it, back then we could sell it and even make a couple bones since the Japs were killing us on the dollar. The Brothas' weren,t dumb, they were selling Yen and women... :roll: 
It's abuyers market, no evil capitalism, just facts. Nobody wants to pay for hardware if they can get a close enough sound using a computer.
And the gear isn't fragile BTW, we only think it is.
My CS80 came with a case around it because we had more players than engineers back then. Same with my Helpenstill Upright Piano. The keybed sucked, but it tilted up into the case where the Harp and pick ups were. Action sucked, but it smoked the CP88 back then and the Road crew loved me. My rig alone took up half of a truck for Petes' sake.
We only had Anvil cases here in the states, so imagine a B3 2/ 2 x Leslies, a 50 watt Marshall stack, CP88, CS80, Oberheim, D6, Moog, Rhodes and Melotron ( there's a fragile one 4 ya ). All with Anvil cases. The cases alone back then were 8-9 large....
Now days I am stuck with Union stagehands wearing black waist belts, that won't even touch your rig if it doesn't have wheels. Talk about FAT BASTARDS.
My crew were Bikers that hustled everything including gear. Now I get a bunch of Union bums that move slow as molasses.
I even had a lame sound man that asked me to not get upset over slow reactions since he was dyslexic................WTF &*(*&(&(&(&(
I told him to make sure I was on channel 11......
Believe it or not the best crew I ever had were Mexicans. I did a stint with Luis Migel and they smoked these spoiled Yankees.
The women come to the concerts with nice dresses and act like ladies, well until their true intentions are revealed......but they are far from the MTV jive crap and Bikinis we are bombarded with.
Nothing like keeping up with the DirtBagians down there.
Sorry..............OT city, I tend to regress too much.

Truth is I am an old Phuddy Duddy who did his last tour in 2004, and had to shrink even more just to gig locally everynight, and yes I drag my FAT BASTARD Analog SE-1's and racks to the gig.....
I really, really do wish the Native guys would make things happen really soon.
I will be 55 in a few months, and not until somebody actually gets close enough to sounding like a real synth, will I use one.
You think I like packing this shit 6 nights a week.
Now you know why I get excited using the laptop and PianoTeq Pro on a core 2 duo 2.4GHz w/ 2 GB........and a peice of crap M Audio KS88.
I drug out to the front of the house in between shows for a few extra bones.
The easiet buck and a half I ever made.

Now where's a decent Analog softie..........???? 14 years I have waited.
Here's a short snippet with no extras....
http://forums.planetz.com/download/file.php?id=8202

Here's a psuedo Karplus String Model using the Analog Envelopes that shows just how snappy a real analog envelope can get too. Its not all Filters.

http://forums.planetz.com/download/file.php?id=8203

Rant Over.


----------



## chimuelo (Jan 24, 2011)

True story Bro. 80% of these guys are somebodys' cousin or sister, and only the high riggers earn their pay.
The rest of them are a prime example of the typical AFL-CIO schmuck.
I am a retired AFL-CIO worker, but I guarantee I earned my cake shovelling concrete and rigging the cranes. These chumps got Air conditioning, and don't have to lift over 50 lbs., etc.etc.
It's really pathetic sometimes.. But the 20% carry the rest which is why I no longer support Unions unless they are tradesmen with some formal training or something.
These clowns only need a GED and Daddy....
But whats even funnier is when I have to do the occassional crappy job where the Security Guard is the FOH.................. :twisted: 
The console gets locked after the soundcheck under Plexiglass and its so bad I just chug Jager the whole time.

We call these Bozos Sound Cops, or one ancient chump I see every few years is named " Sargeant Sound. "


----------



## Mike Greene (Jan 24, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Jan 23 said:


> The point is that big companies aren't set up for things that are too small. Small companies don't have to make as much money with their money.


Exactly. Plus small companies get their "main guy" for free.

If Dave Smith or Roger Linn or Tom Oberheim starts some new company because they have an idea for a new product, they probably don't think too much about what their own time is worth, since a lot of this is more passion driven, rather than financially driven. So the threshold for what's financially practical can be pretty low, since any of these guys would be doing the expensive (brain) part of the work themselves. (Guy who solders circuit board = cheap. Guy who *designs* circuit board = expensive.)

If Yamaha or Roland or Korg wanted to introduce the same product and *hire* one of those guys, or even a lesser known person of similar caliber, it will cost them big.


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 24, 2011)

Mike Greene @ Mon Jan 24 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Jan 23 said:
> 
> 
> > The point is that big companies aren't set up for things that are too small. Small companies don't have to make as much money with their money.
> ...



Agree 100%

Oh what would it be a wonderful world if noone would have to think about money! o-[][]-o


----------



## Mike Greene (Jan 24, 2011)

To add to that, years ago I saw Roger Linn downstairs in Hall E at NAMM. He was introducing his "Adrenalinn," which was a guitar effects box (like a Line6 Pod) with a built in drum machine.

I don't know his exact sales figures, but I don't think they were very high. Not horrible, but I would (blindly) estimate that if Roland had done this and paid Roger Linn for the year or so of his time that he put into it, it wouldn't have recouped. Yet I'll bet Roger did okay, since his own (actual) costs were so much lower.

Hmmm . . . then again, if Roland had done this, with their marketing machinery, I wonder if it would have sold more. I suppose that's another factor in all this.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 24, 2011)

Yup yup yup. The main guy works for nothing in too many businesses.

And chimuelo, as someone who's going to be 55 in April I can tell you that we are not old fuddy-duddys. F that!


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 24, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jan 24 said:


> Yup yup yup. The main guy works for nothing in too many businesses.
> 
> And chimuelo, as someone who's going to be 55 in April I can tell you that we are not old fuddy-duddys. F that!



50 this year....... , but only in 8 month. :mrgreen:


----------



## dpasdernick (Jan 24, 2011)

So there are a lot of people here who would pay 5k for a Jupiter 8 or an OB-8 to get that authentic sound that synth makers like Arturia and Spectrasonics aren't acheiving? No built in effects, no automated tweaking, just plain old super fat honkin' analog.

But there is also a reality of now recording that into a DAW (unless you have a 2" -24 track reel to reel and some nice hardware compressors and effects) Then you are going to maybe layer samples and other VST's to complete your composition. Mix the JP8 down to hear the rest of the instruments, guitars, vocals. At this moment are you really going to hear the difference? Absolutely side by side a real JP8 would sound ballsier than Arturia's version but, again, buried in a mix?

Don't get me wrong. I am not a young pup who missed out on the hardware synth craze. I lived through it and lusted after every single piece that came out. Still do. I would have given my right nut for an OB-8. I still go on Ebay and look at the Synclavs, Oberheims, Prophets etc. They are amazing. I'm close to buying a used Synclav but am so worried I will depart with a ton of dough and after trying to find a space for it plug it in and go hmmm.... Nice but hmmm... Uhhh, Omnisphere, FM8, Kontakt 4, built in effects, simple click and go, etc, etc.

The Korg Kronos offers up a ton of music and diverse sounds, plus the audio recording, sampling etc. The JP8 has a few waveforms. It's a lot of cash focused on a very specific sound set. I guess I'm wondering if you are that much of a purist then shoudn't your whole rig be that way? No VST's, no Electri6ity, no sampled drums. What's the point of having the "real thing" and then surrounding it with "not the real thing"? 

Just thinkin' out loud. Someone talk me out of the Synclav please... 

Darren


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 24, 2011)

dpasdernick, do you know the different between a mp3 and an audio file, recorded in 24bit, 48kHz? 

I think you know the different, yes, no?

Omnisphere is the best software synth you can buy, no doubt about that!


----------



## synthetic (Jan 24, 2011)

You don't have to choose, buy Omnisphere AND the Synclavier AND the OB-8. 

You're welcome.


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 24, 2011)

Is there a software synth on the market what has this 8 (or more) steps envelopes, what the Casio Team created for their CZ-Synths? This was AWESOME!

ADSR, and later the AHDSR are so poor in comparison!


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 24, 2011)

Sure there are, Gunther. For example Omnisphere can do 100 if I remember right, and you can draw them any way way you want. There are all kinds of presets too.

You can also modulate the envelopes, control them in real time, randomize them, and on and on.


----------



## dpasdernick (Jan 24, 2011)

germancomponist @ Mon Jan 24 said:


> dpasdernick, do you know the different between a mp3 and an audio file, recorded in 24bit, 48kHz?
> 
> I think you know the different, yes, no?
> 
> Omnisphere is the best software synth you can buy, no doubt about that!



Gunther,

I do know the difference  Are you saying that Arturia's JP8 is the equivalent of an mp3 and that the real thing is the 24 bit, 48khz version?

Darren


----------



## dpasdernick (Jan 24, 2011)

synthetic @ Mon Jan 24 said:


> You don't have to choose, buy Omnisphere AND the Synclavier AND the OB-8.
> 
> You're welcome.



Hmmm, I have Omnisphere which cost around $500. Now I only need around 10k for the Synclav and around 5k(?) for the OB-8. More is better...

Darren


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 24, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Jan 25 said:


> Sure there are, Gunther. For example Omnisphere can do 100 if I remember right, and you can draw them any way way you want. There are all kinds of presets too.
> 
> You can also modulate the envelopes, control them in real time, randomize them, and on and on.



So with/in Omnisphere I can do the same things, I can say:" let the envelope go from step 1 to step 8, set there the sustain point, and then let it go over some other steps, and all time based?


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 24, 2011)

dpasdernick @ Tue Jan 25 said:


> germancomponist @ Mon Jan 24 said:
> 
> 
> > dpasdernick, do you know the different between a mp3 and an audio file, recorded in 24bit, 48kHz?
> ...



In comparison.... . :mrgreen: 

Hehe, don`t get me wrong! Sure, the synth plugs are very great, but I loved to play on the originals and the sound is different o/~


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 24, 2011)

Gunther, you can loop the envelope, draw in whatever you want, insert stages, half- or double-time the whole thing, adjust the curve between breakpoints, and a whole lot more...and it's all on a graph, so you do it visually.

http://support.spectrasonics.net/instru ... elopes.php


----------



## chimuelo (Jan 24, 2011)

Here's the various Envelope options and Oscillators of the infamous Casio CZ.
It's been a object of desire in the Synth community for a long time.

FWIW the Solaris hardware synth is a Waldorf, a Casio, an Analog Subtractive, FM, PhysMod w/ custom wavetables, and a Sample Oscillator w/ 64MB's per instance @ 96k. Now layer and combine these at will with the ribbon and joystick + pedals and you have a hardware Omnisphere with better Analog characteristics often overlooked in softsynths.

The Oscillators below from the Casio were BETA tested in the ancient Creamware/Soniccore Modular for 2 years before being added to the Solaris' endless Oscillator, FIlter, LFO and Envelope collection.

Now that we've sidetracked ourselves to death, I know the developers who did the Kronos, and I can only say I know their work, so I have to go and tweak the instrumnent in realtime.
I just can't picture this synth not sounding really good or at least have some of the DSP characteristics of the Oasys.....

Ever hear their effects card from the '90's,.......the first Oasys PCI....???
That thing had synths, effects, etc. It was great for recording and realtime work, just underpowered...

Oh well.......Peace and success to all synth lovers and sample developers.


----------



## snowleopard (Jan 24, 2011)

I really don't think this is an either/or type of thing. Like you should own a computer and soft synths, or own a bunch of true old analog hardware. It may be weird to hear someone with Prophets and Jupiters and OBx's trying to make something symphonic sounding today, just as it sounds artificial to hear faux analog out of _most_ soft synths. 

There really is something organic and intimate about programming and playing a true analog synth. The instant feedback when you shape and torque the sound as you play it, and alter it, is something that simply cannot be re-created with any computer. This was something dearly missing even 15+ years ago with synths like the DX7, D-50, M1, etc. 

I personally think the Andromeda sounds terrific, and truly analog, because it is. Really, really nice synth. I like it a little more than the Prophet-08. I'd be very happy with either one if I had it, and not likely feel the need to also buy up older analog synths. I dearly miss my Prophet-600 I sold 20 years ago. And glad a friend is holding my Chroma Polaris. But if I had them now, would I really be that happy with their sound? I don't know. I own a Waldorf Q, but it's really a digital synth with some analog-like sounds. It's cool, but not analog. Not even close. The Virus sounds great, but not true analog. Close, but nope. Give me the Andromeda, I'll be happy. 

I have tried many VA soft synths. Arturia seemed to try the hardest. Their Arp 2600 sounds best, though not quite true analog. Most disappointed by the CS-80v and JP-8. Regret spending money on those. 

Some VA soft synths sound fantastic and pretty darned close to analog. Not quite, but close enough to inspire. Zebra comes to mind. 

Agree that the depth and plethora of sounds from Omnisphere is staggering. Probably greater than any soft synth ever. And I think that includes Reaktor and Absynth, mostly because Omni is friendlier to use, and easier to get going. Having Omnisphere with a hardware interface (or as I said, touch screen) would be the ultimate, a modern day Synclavier, so to speak. 

I too would love to own a Synclavier, Darren. But as I said before, I'd be buying one mostly for the cachet. Maybe you would too? And if so, that's okay (if one can afford it). Remember, you're going to need a Lexicon 224 (or 300, or 480) to run it through...

You're how old Nick? I really thought you were like 25! Keep on rolling my youthful friend!


----------



## chimuelo (Jan 25, 2011)

There ya' go. 
A Good carpenter with the right nails can build a mansion....
SOunds like Geddy Lee.


----------



## synthetic (Jan 25, 2011)

People liked the envelopes on the CZ series!? Those drove me CraZy. 

I liked it at the time, but I can't get nostalgic over a synth with no filter. 

I think Zebra can do envelops like that, though. Great soft synth, must own.


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 25, 2011)

He he...., smile, these envelopes were cool. I did many cool sounds with the CZ-Synths. 

Do you think Zebra can do this, or do you know it?

In these days I am experimenting with Kontakt Sampler 4, to use it as a synth. And yes, this sampler is a cool synth too.... . o/~ 

Have you listend to my organs, done with only one taiko sample? 
To built organs is for sure the simplest part, but with the same "one" sample I did some very cool synth sounds too, and will post tomorrow. :mrgreen:


----------



## snowleopard (Jan 25, 2011)

I don't know quite enough about the Casio CZ's, but is this what you're looking for?







I sent Urs a note, hopefully he can add his voice to the conversation.


----------



## spectrum (Jan 25, 2011)

germancomponist @ Mon Jan 24 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Jan 25 said:
> 
> 
> > Sure there are, Gunther. For example Omnisphere can do 100 if I remember right, and you can draw them any way way you want. There are all kinds of presets too.
> ...


Yes. You can do all this and you can also "Groove Lock" create the envelopes based on audio/midi rhythms which is a unique feature that only Omnisphere currently has:
http://support.spectrasonics.net/instru ... elopes.mov


----------



## synthetic (Jan 25, 2011)

snowleopard @ Tue Jan 25 said:


> I don't know quite enough about the Casio CZ's, but is this what you're looking for?



Yeah, that's it. CZ envelopes were 6 or 8 stages, rate and level. Like DX-7 envelopes. It's been a while! They were fun in their day but I just can't get misty over those.


----------



## Lunatique (Jan 26, 2011)

I'm pretty much over hardware synths at this point. I don't ever recall listening to a piece of music and thinking, "if they only used a hardware analog synth on this part, it would sound so much better" In the full mix, with all the stuff going on, synths just sound like synths, unless there's a very exposed line where the nuances of the analog sound can really be heard. But from my experience, when a piece of music has a synth part exposed and naked like that, and the nuances of analog and knob tweaking becomes the focus, the track tends to get into really geeky territory and the musicality suffers. 

In the last decade, softsynths have gotten so damn good that I just don't miss hardware at all. When I younger, I lusted for the mega workstations because they were about the only way for most of us to obtain stunningly realistic emulations of various instruments (stunning for the time, but obviously cannot compete with today's sample libraries). I remember playing the K2000 for the first time and my jaw just unhinged. But keyboard workstations have lost that edge to computers and sample libraries long ago and at this point, there's nothing left for me to lust after, except maybe a very well designed UI with very useful controllers. 

I also don't like the idea of keyboards taking up room in my studio too. Other than the necessary 88-key piano-weighted controller, the must-have synth-action controller, and the little two-octave mini-key fillers for keyswitching duty, I really don't want to give any more space to keyboards. I'd rather give that space to guitars and basses and even drums/percussion, as their appeal has held for me and will never be replaced by computers/software.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 26, 2011)

Different strokes for different folks: I LOVE my new vintage analog synths. I like that they take up space, I like that I have to get up to make music, I love that each is physically different. I LOVE the knobs and sliders and buttons. In virtual land, the GUIs may change, but it's always mouse/trackpad or the same MIDI controller for all synths. Oh, and don't get me started on the sound! No softsynth sounds like my Memorymoog on unison, or can compete with my SH-5's bandpass filter.


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 26, 2011)

spectrum @ Wed Jan 26 said:


> Yes. You can do all this and you can also "Groove Lock" create the envelopes based on audio/midi rhythms which is a unique feature that only Omnisphere currently has:
> http://support.spectrasonics.net/instru ... elopes.mov



Very great, Eric! Thanks for the link!


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 26, 2011)

synthetic @ Wed Jan 26 said:


> snowleopard @ Tue Jan 25 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know quite enough about the Casio CZ's, but is this what you're looking for?
> ...



8 stages, and you could define where the sustain step had to be. So it was very cool to simulate many instruments on the attack, what sometimes was built with 7 different steps.


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 26, 2011)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Jan 26 said:


> Different strokes for different folks: I LOVE my new vintage analog synths. I like that they take up space, I like that I have to get up to make music, I love that each is physically different. I LOVE the knobs and sliders and buttons. In virtual land, the GUIs may change, but it's always mouse/trackpad or the same MIDI controller for all synths. Oh, and don't get me started on the sound! No softsynth sounds like my Memorymoog on unison, or can compete with my SH-5's bandpass filter.



+1


----------

