# College Undergraduate Programs



## tonaliszt (Apr 8, 2016)

My name is Noah, and I am currently a junior in high school. I was wondering if I could get your thoughts on College Undergraduate Programs for learning composition, as well as breaking into the "Music for Media" industry. I’d love to learn about your undergraduate college experience, where you went, who you studied with, how it was...

It would really mean a huge amount to me to get your opinions and experiences. 


If you would like to answer specific questions: What are your thoughts on the Berklee College of Music and Boston Conservatory merger? Are the composition departments at USC and UCLA really film scoring departments in disguise (they offer no Film Scoring majors at the undergraduate level)? What are your thoughts on San Fransico Conservatory’s new Technology and Applied Composition program? 

I know many people have negative opinions of American higher education (and it’s hard not to, as it’s really messed up), but I really would like to keep the conversation positive and useful. 



If you would like to hear some of my compositions you can listen to these two: here (emphasis on production/VI’s) and here (emphasis of orchestration/compositional technique)

Again, it would be so helpful and useful if you could help me out and share your opinions and experiences. 

Thanks, 
Noah Horowitz


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## Karma (Apr 8, 2016)

Hey Noah,

Fairly similar boat here. I'm currently finishing up my final year at University here in the UK, and like what you've mentioned - my course is focused on Composition for Media/Film.
Making the decision to come to University and study Music was one of the best I could have made. It has put me on the right path, I know what I want to do and I'm now in a position where I feel I can leave education and start working full time. Whereas 3 years ago all I knew was that I wanted to compose for screen, I was unsure how to approach it and I figured my goal to be somewhat unrealistic.

Like you said, there aren't many courses at undergraduate level that focus solely on Media/Film, but you can still absolutely benefit from them.
As long as they cover some elements of Film & Media within (which I'm sure they will), you'll learn a lot and also meet some great people along the way. Some of which I guarantee will be able to work with in the future. Not only this, but if you wanted to study postgraduate (for more focus on film scoring itself) then you would most likely need an undergraduate degree under your belt anyway!

If anything, the time you are on the course is a great way to really start to dig into your craft and build a solid portfolio. 
I can't speak much for the College's that you've mentioned as I don't know enough about them. But if I were you I would just do your homework on each place. Contact some ex-students, email the lecturers, go to an open day (do they have them in the States?). It's all about doing your research and making the decision for yourself.

I know I couldn't answer some of your more direct questions, but I hope what I've said at least helps your decision!


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## Prockamanisc (Apr 8, 2016)

I have a masters degree in film scoring. School will give you skills, so know which skills you want. Some schools will give you connections to the industry. Know what kind of music you want to make, and study it. It might require schooling, it might not.


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## JohnG (Apr 8, 2016)

I just like learning things, so while studying formally is partly a means to an end -- the end being employment -- it's not nearly the most important thing to me.

I will never try to write a fugue again but I enjoyed learning about them; I can't make any money or get a job from learning about Lutoslawski or Buxtehude but I like knowing as much as I can.

So if you are like that and / or you would like a bit of time to grow up and have a few drinks and be looked after by parents (assuming they are doing that), why not go to university? You might meet your best friend for life, which is worth more than most other things.

If, by contrast, you just want to get out there and make money at music, see if you can do that. Try to find someone who writes music for adverts or see if you can write for a student film at a university near you (or not near you) and see if you can help. Learn how to make really awesome coffee drinks and sandwiches, then offer to do that and run errands for someone more established -- it's worked for others, why not you? Nobody who's paying me seems to care at all whether or where I studied.


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## The Darris (Apr 8, 2016)

Hey Noah. I live in the Bay Area near San Francisco. I checked out the conservatory a few years ago when I was choosing schools. If cost isn't an issue, I know that program does work with the gaming industry which is huge up here. The Bay is packed full of Triple A and Indie developers but, alas, the music industry for media isn't too big up here. If you are looking for a school with "connections" then I would suggest the USC Film Scoring program. This list is long of working composers who graduated from that program. Keep in mind, it is a specialized school with the focus on film scoring, but it is also considered a master's program that requires a Bachelor's of Music to get in, unless it's changed in the last few years from my understanding. 

I am currently finishing my senior year at Sonoma State University in the North Bay. They don't have a composition degree but they do offer a concentration which I found to be exactly what I needed. I didn't want to go through some formal composition program to learn how to write like the instructors in an almost formulaic fashion. I chose SSU because the composition program was simply getting private lessons and sitting in a forum and discussing new works, sharing our works. In the end, I got one on one time with my instructor who's seen many of his students go on to work in the industry. His goal was to listen to my style and help me achieve my vision for it. Whether it's going traditional or to the bizarre, it never felt like he was telling me what to do and how to do but giving me the momentum to enable my own creative process. 

The current state of SSU's music program is in a transition to more conservative like atmosphere. The auditioning process is becoming more vigorous and selective and the courses are changing a bit. Our Music Education Department is one of the best in the state of California with a 100% placement rate if you go through their teaching credential program. In the end, what I have gotten out of the music program at SSU was an interaction with musicians that allowed me to get my music performed by them. I was fortunate to have a piece of my premiered by our University's Wind Ensemble which was a wonderful experience. Wherever you decide to go to school, just keep in mind the value of the musicians around you. Befriend them and write for them. Learning how to write for players and ensembles in huge for any kind of composer. It teaches you more about how the instrument is really played, versus how we play it in our DAW. 

Best of luck to you!!

-Chris


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## dannthr (Apr 8, 2016)

Hey Noah,

I thought I might chime in here not merely as someone who went to college but as someone who, for the past 5 years, worked at a college specializing in music production where I was responsible for instruction, developing curriculum, and directing the shape and delivery of online education.

I may not have a career as glamorous as some others around here, and you can get a variety of opinions from other VI cats, many of whom have spent time in some of the programs you've specified. With that said, I've worked mostly in games where I've tried to tackle everything from music composition and production to sound design and dialog editing. I've worked on a Marvel game, I've worked for LucasArts, I've worked on Highlander, and Guilty Gear Xrd, and a slew of games you've probably never heard of--some never released, some not even games! I mention this because I want to be fair to you as you evaluate your research data.

When I was young, I wanted to attend Berklee's Film Scoring program, but Berklee insisted upon a principal instrument, and I was neither very good at my Clarinet nor interested in pursuing instrumental proficiency. At that time, all schools centered their music programs around instrumental proficiency. That's not to say that instrumental proficiency isn't justified, it is, but there's a serviceable threshold of keyboard skills that will suffice for the majority of music composition these days because truly, my instrument is the computer (or my DAW).

So I lost hope, so to speak, and wandered a bit unfocused for a while after graduating High School. Eventually, I decided to go back to school to study my second love, Computer Science.

The irony, of course, is that the pull to music was inexorable. Even before I eventually graduated with a degree in English: Creative Writing, I had already started working in the game industry as a sound designer and music producer. In fact, Highlander: The Game (developed by Eidos Interactive) was one of my first gigs, working for the composer Richard Jacques to program his virtual choirs before finishing up school. Of course the game was cancelled, but the point is that the laser focus that drove my passions in High School stayed with me, regardless of where I went to school or what I studied.

You see, when I started poking around my University's music production program, I was already more advanced than their professors with respect to virtual instrument work and in-the-box DAWing--that's because all it takes to jump to the forefront of music production techniques is to spend some money (in my case student loans) and have the will and tenacity to teach yourself (with the help of the Internet--places like VI-Control, YouTube, and more)!

So what I will do is lay down my recommendations along with my perspectives and feelings on education in our art--and I will use my whole experience as both a musician and an educator:

*1) I will recommend a University over a Conservatory or Music College almost EVERY SINGLE TIME. Why?*

It's difficult to properly articulate the significance of a University. A University is the coming-together of many colleges. Because a University is made up of multiple schools, it offers an unprecedented and unique opportunity to explore multiple schools of thought.

In my time at my University, I took courses on art, drawing, 3D modeling, astronomy, political philosophy, computer science, writing and structure, poetry, and so much more.

My experience was rich and my life is richer for that experience.

Not only can I communicate to programmers, 3D artists/animators, and writers (all people with whom I interact in my line of work), but I can successfully communicate my artistic ideas because I understand their language--I can talk to the programmer and I understand and can work with a programmer because I know the problems they will face once I hand them my music; I understand the artist, I can communicate with them and understand their needs when I synchronize sounds to their assets or Playblast out of Maya; and I can communicate to writers through metaphor and structure because I understand the language of story and narrative.

It's important to remember that you are embarking on a lifelong pursuit, an artistic endeavor that will be a part of your entire life, and your education only comprises a very tiny sliver of that experience. Your artistic life will not solely be bent on looking behind you at the composers who came before you and trying to copy what they did or just merely understand what they achieved. You will also want to look forward and continue the development of this art through the exploration of new and different artistic discourse. You will have a far more richer artistic offering if you have the ability to look beyond the borders of music and see the wider artistic discourse from the world around you. Often times saying something new in music requires bringing in a new perspective to the problem--in the past this has often come in the form of breakthroughs (written music, recording, synthesis, computer production, etc.).

Now, this my recommendation, but you must follow your heart on which setting best facilitates what you need.

With that said, regardless of your decision...
*2) Learn how to think critically and analyze--learn how to write, learn how to write well!*

Wherever you end up, learn how to write great essays--argumentative, substantially supported, and persuasive essays. There are many reasons for this, so I cannot overemphasize the importance of critical thinking and analysis (and essays are the most essential academic form of critical thinking and analysis). Artists are decisions makers and you cannot make good decisions if you cannot understand the topic of your expression nor fully appreciate the substance or implications of your decision. Our decisions have consequences and these consequences have artistic implications in our work. Sometimes those implications sit fully in the language of music and so only musicians will understand those consequences (or appreciate them), but all the implications must be understood.

If you cannot explain the value of the choices you make as an artist, you will never fully have artistic control over your work. The more effective you get at understanding the consequences of your artistic choices, the more your work will be perceived as "good." You should always be able to defend your choices, even if the original thought was just "I like the sound of that," there should always be something more to it. No other discipline in film, television, or games makes completely arbitrary production decisions--neither should you. Make your art mean something. You will be more effective at this task if you understand how things mean something.

This is critical thinking.

Demand an education where this is a major focus!

*3) Seek a Mentor*

Despite having been a so-called Director of Online Education, I'm not a big fan of Online Education. I recommend interacting with humans and finding a peer group that you can really engage with, learn from, and move forward with in your careers together. More than that, find a mentor, someone with whom you can really dig in--someone who can guide you. This won't always be the same person all the time, sometimes this person is just a little ahead of you on the same path, sometimes they're a bit farther along.

However, if I am to say there is any benefit to going to any school, it is the guidance you receive. Don't just go to any school, go to a school where you can learn from people you want as a mentor. Look up who is teaching there, reach out to those people, ask them questions about the program, seek their level of interest in what you're doing.

Now, this doesn't always work out, sometimes there are misunderstandings, sometimes they're too busy to do much interaction, sometimes they're not what you expected, but it's worth your time to check.

*4) Learn Recording Technology and Engineering*

Whatever your education, wherever you end up, make sure you learn how to use a console, make sure you understand what all the different types of mics are and what applications they're good for, make sure you learn the logic of signal flow. Learn the difference between Line Level, Mic Level, etc. You should be able to spend a few minutes in front of any recording console and be capable of using it. You should be able to effectively understand and use EQs, Compressors, Reverb/Delays, Limiters, Gates, both as software and as hardware. You should be able to set up a recording session with ANY instrument.

You should be at the mercy of NO ONE when you're trying to produce your music.

*5) Learn Synthesis and Sound Design*

Make sure you learn how to use a synthesizer--you should be able to walk up to ANY synthesizer and within a few minutes, figure out how to use it effectively.

Do you want to be a preset surfer your whole life? Or do you want to define your own sound--be your own music producer--and have complete control over your own musical presentation?

You can be like the 100s of people who surf Omnisphere presets and sound like everyone else or you can learn how to make the sound that is in your head, heart, or ear--be original, demand it of yourself!

*6) Listen to Everything--Analyze how everything was made*

Never limit your palette, listen to everything. There is no musical genre out there that does not have something to say, seek out variety in your musical diet.

Every time you listen to music, try to figure out how it was created from start to finish.

You will be more effective at this if you've done 1-5 first, but you should always be doing this.

Transcribe and reproduce the music that inspires and excites you!

You will grow as an artist every time you do this!

*Continued in the next post (10,000 character limit?)*


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## dannthr (Apr 8, 2016)

*Final Thoughts:*


*You don't need school to learn any of this stuff.* The number one mistake people make going to school is going to school for a job. This is ONLY practical in career paths that require some kind of certification or higher level of training (like a doctor, lawyer, auto-mechanic, etc.).


No one cares what school you went to in music or even if you went to school. If your portfolio sounds like butt, then your schooling means nothing--and I have seen plenty of portfolios to know that the school they attended did not correlate to the production quality.


Good production quality comes from a critical ear who understands the technology effectively enough to make good production decisions.


You need a good ear and a dedication to training that ear.


You will be learning your whole life--school will only be a jump-start.


*You will need to be an entrepreneur.* There have been very few composers I have met in real life (here in Los Angeles) who are not also doing something else (or many other things), whether it's orchestration, production, or an unrelated job, even so-called successful composers are working non-compositional jobs to pay for the in-between times.


However, being a well rounded music producer means you will have a myriad of talents with which to leverage. Why should you turn down a sound editing gig? It's not like there's anything going on there that you don't understand. Why not make a sample library? Why not make a synth patch library? Being a composer is like starting a small cafe on a block full of cafes--it's not enough to have great coffee--you build up toward regular work over time (and some people never get there completely and it's not because they're bad at it either).


There won't always be music composition work, but there will always be work for enterprising people who know how to maximize their skillset and professional value.


I know that's a lot to take in, not sure if I could handle something like this when I was in High School, but in some ways, I wish someone had offered me this kind of perspective when I was in High School.


*In the end, look at school as an opportunity, it's really not more than that, but at the same time, there aren't any other opportunities quite like it.*


=====================================================


Your music sounds good, especially for a High Schooler. If you keep on this trajectory, you'll do fine!


I give a different kind of critique than some people might, what I do is I usually offer listening examples because I think there's something to take away from them that you can employ in your work to improve.


For your first piece (the VI focused one), I recommend listening to the beautiful blend of sound design and orchestration that is Borislav Slavov's "SOS New York" cue from the Crysis 2 OST:



For your second piece (the composition focused one), I recommend listening to tightly composed "Main Title and Morgan's Ride" cue from John Debney's score to Cutthroat Island. Listen to his use of harmonic movement, tempo, and instrumentation to weave a narrative--the cue is dripping with more story than the whole movie (don't see the movie):


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## Karma (Apr 9, 2016)

Just adding to what I put earlier on higher education:

I went to my favourite lecturer recently and asked him if he thinks it is currently worth doing a masters or not.
He said that he now actually questions whether or not it is better to put the money towards getting yourself a decent home studio & in the years you would be studying build the absolute best portfolio you can. He did get his Masters when he was younger, which was great for him as he went into teaching. But aside from that he mentioned it didn't benefit him much when it came to composing work.

Personally, if money wasn't an issue I probably would be doing a masters. I'd already been looking into the Royal College of Music, and I'm sure I would learn plenty there and meet even more people. But luckily for me you can always come back and do a masters whenever you feel like. It's just another thing to weigh up!


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## trumpoz (Apr 9, 2016)

Just some thoughts from someone who is a High School music teacher and is often approached to provide guidance on tertiary study options in music and the performing arts. This is a similar conversation I have with my students. I want to make sure they are up for the challenge. The last thing the world needs is another half-arsed musician. 

The number 1 priority in the music industry is definitely not where you gout your degree. In other fields such as law, medicine, finance etc there is a certain advantage in having a particular badge/coat of arms at the top of your certification. Forget about university as a means to an end in the music industry. The benefit of tertiary study in music is the learning that you experience. This is where you have to put the work in. You will meet people from all different walks of life, musical backgrounds and have lecturers that will challenge you, push you and infuriate you to tears. This is where you will learn the most, if you put the work in. A university education can help you develop in to the best musician you can be at that time, and allow you to equip yourself with the skills to continue to hone your craft. None of that will mean that you will be any good at your craft. None of that will mean that you will be able to find work. None of that is provided by the universities - only opportunities for you to develop and learn. Thus you will only get out of it what you put in. 

I don't want to discourage you from following your passion, far from it, but you need to understand what you will be getting yourself in to. This industry is a hard road, and it is only getting harder. You will be told you are not good enough (and continue to think that for longer) have more setbacks and disappointments than you can imagine. If you are strong enough to go through all of that, then follow your passion and *go after it with everything you have and do not hold back!* 

To answer you question about Berklee - I was speaking with a Berklee student who is back in Oz after completing the first year of his (full academic) scholarship. He absolutely loved it and has learned a huge amount. It's actually a little scary hearing him talk like that. The guy was a fantastic composer before leaving.


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## tonaliszt (Apr 12, 2016)

First off, thanks so much to everyone (especially dannthr) on your very deep responses.
I definitely will be going to college or university, so my question was more on where I should go, as opposed to whether to go or not. I also understand that where I go to college is not going to have an effect on future jobs, but what I learn at college will. A couple of more direct questions this time:

I know that several people here went to USC for composition undergraduate degrees. Did you find that the classes were more focused on “contemporary” classical or film scoring?

Are their less obvious choices to college that I am overlooking? Colleges or conservatories that have teachers with industry experience? The reason I ask about this one is because I only found out about San Francisco Conservatory’s program by chance, so perhaps their are other unknown programs out there. 

Can anyone recommend a great teacher or mentor in a higher education institution? Who are the Nadia Boulanger’s of film scoring?

Thanks again for everyone's great responses so far. It is invaluable to me.


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## Zhao Shen (Apr 12, 2016)

If you're only looking to become a better composer, I'd say there are better avenues to go. As someone who studies computer science at Cornell University, I may be somewhat biased since our music program is pretty unremarkable. I decided early on that my effort would be better spent on CS classes. But I don't feel like I'm missing anything that I couldn't learn with a mentor or on my own. Cost-benefit ratio for attending a university for music just isn't up to par IMO.

On the other hand, if you without a doubt want to dedicate your life to music, go for it. The connections you could make by attending a school such as UCLA are invaluable - meeting people is so much more important than most realize. Yes, you might be an amazing composer, but no one cares unless you can put yourself out there and connect with others.


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## Karma (Apr 12, 2016)

Even if you do go onto a contemporary course, you will learn loads about Orchestration as well as other helpful things. You will always benefit from something like that!


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## gsilbers (Apr 12, 2016)

n.h said:


> My name is Noah, and I am currently a junior in high school. I was wondering if I could get your thoughts on College Undergraduate Programs for learning composition, as well as breaking into the "Music for Media" industry. I’d love to learn about your undergraduate college experience, where you went, who you studied with, how it was...
> 
> It would really mean a huge amount to me to get your opinions and experiences.
> 
> ...




I went to berklee. I also attended a "normal" liberal arts college.

What you mentioned about the higher level education does come true with colleges where kids are still trying to figure out what they want to do... besides partying.

Berklee does offer the unique side that people there are going there for music. That right there elevates the quality of people attending and becomes very competitive in a very positive way. You want to really try hard to become a good student and learn the most you can. On the other hand, liberal arts colleges , which I noticed in other boston colleges, become more of a adult daycare sort of situation.

Also, in berklee you can opt for a degree which is a regular bachelor degree. This will work if you want to get a job anywhere that requires a bachelor, even outside music. (this will mostly make your parents happy 

The film composition course is good. the best one seems to be the USC program but its more exclusive. you get to meet film makers from the usc programs. the smtptv is a short program. its not a full music program. its a program where you need to be good at music already and then they teach all the stuff about film scoring.

Berklee offers a summer program of a few weeks so you can attend and see how its like.

I wouldn't recommend the UCLA program. I think there are online programs better than that.


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## bc3po (Apr 12, 2016)

n.h said:


> First off, thanks so much to everyone (especially dannthr) on your very deep responses.
> I definitely will be going to college or university, so my question was more on where I should go, as opposed to whether to go or not. I also understand that where I go to college is not going to have an effect on future jobs, but what I learn at college will. A couple of more direct questions this time:
> 
> I know that several people here went to USC for composition undergraduate degrees. Did you find that the classes were more focused on “contemporary” classical or film scoring?
> ...



I went to the University of Rochester and studied at the Eastman school of music. although it's a traditional conservatory Jeff Beal just donated 2 million dollars to their "film scoring" department (basically he is trying to build one.


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## musicalweather (Apr 16, 2016)

I think Dan's answer covered most everything, but I'll add: I went to USC to study classical piano performance and electro-acoustic media (no longer offered). The electro-acoustic media enabled me to learn about DAWs, synthesis, etc. But while I was there, I was able to start scoring student films at the USC film school -- an invaluable experience. (And yes, you don't have to be in the USC film scoring program to score USC student films.) After I finished at USC, I took numerous classes at the UCLA extension film scoring program. I learned about orchestration through practical experience (most of those classes had us writing for live musicians). The instructors were excellent (some of the same ones who teach at USC!). I'd highly recommend it. The only thing I'd say is that the UCLA extension program probably wouldn't give you the kinds of connections you'd get in the USC film scoring program. 

If you're out here in L.A., I'd recommend the Society of Composers and Lyricists Mentor program which lets you hobnob with A-list composers (as well as participate in some other useful activities). I found it very helpful.

I can't recall a single time in which someone (like a director or producer) asked me where I studied music, and certainly no one has ever asked me for my academic transcripts. Occasionally, it's helped me to mention my USC background when interacting with someone in the industry who is also a USC grad. 

And I agree with Dan, you do need to be entrepreneurial. Besides composing for film and games, I record live classical music performances, edit audio and video, give music tech workshops at music camps for kids, create websites for other people, and teach private piano. 

Not an easy road, but always interesting!


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