# "really good" keyboard?



## JohnG

Hi all,

I'm hankering for a "really good" midi keyboard that had serious QC on the keybed, sliders etc. But I don't actually see anything on the market like that, at any price.

Most keyboards seem to be $700-$2k or something like that, but the upper limit still doesn't have what I would call a "super" quality level. I would happily pay more -- quite a bit more -- to have the ultimate.

I have a very good Doepfer and it does do what I want, but honestly I tried three or four in the shop and chose this particular one over others whose keybeds I found inferior. I can't even quite remember how much it cost.

At the time, it was the best I encountered. I was shocked at how feeble so many keyboards were that I tried -- amazingly flimsy, uneven key response, total rubbish buttons and sliders. Many of them substituted a childishly weak joystick for wheels. Overall, the selection was amazingly weak.

And I'm no virtuoso on the keys either, so this is not a finicky keyboard maestro talking.

Maybe it's better now? @chimuelo recommended the Physis a number of times, but I haven't seen those around for a while.


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## gst98

For a normal MIDI keyboard, I found the Kawai VPC-1 to be the clostest to the real thing. I've also found a lot expensive keyboards pretty dissapointing for the money. You can spend as much as a digital piano on some of them, but the digital pianos much better build quality.

If it doesn't have to be _on_ your desk and can to the side of it, the most authentic would be pianos that have digital sensors in them and MIDI out. The Kawai pianos can lift the hammers off of the strings so they become a completely MIDI keyboard.


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## pmountford

I'm no virtuoso on the keys either but I can tell a difference between this Roland RD2000 to anything else I've had or played and I wouldn't rush to swap it. Have you tried the RD2000 yet?


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## Rory

I'd love to see a review of the Austrian Lachnit from someone who actually owns one:






FLK High End Keyboards


FLK high end controller masterkeyboard




www.flkeys.at


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## shponglefan

My general experience is that dedicated synths usually have the best quality including the keybeds. I've yet to find a MIDI keyboard as good as a proper synth in that respect.


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## Vik

gst98 said:


> For a normal MIDI keyboard, I found the Kawai VPC-1 to be the clostest to the real thing


I have a VPC-1, but kind of regret that I didn't buy a Kawai MP-11 instead. The action on the MP-11 feels a little more natural.


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## CT

After a ton of searching, a few years ago I landed on the Casio PX-5S. I agree that it seems dedicated MIDI controllers lack the consistently good action that actual digital pianos and some synthesizers have.

I feel kind of bad about almost never using this thing as anything more than a controller, but when weighing feel, knobs/wheels/faders (this has good ones), and price, you just end up with a very short list. If you can try one out and like the action, and don't turn your nose up at Casio, could be worth looking into.

Those Physis keyboards seem great too. Never been able to demo one.


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## JonS

JohnG said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm hankering for a "really good" midi keyboard that had serious QC on the keybed, sliders etc. But I don't actually see anything on the market like that, at any price.
> 
> Most keyboards seem to be $700-$2k or something like that, but the upper limit still doesn't have what I would call a "super" quality level. I would happily pay more -- quite a bit more -- to have the ultimate.
> 
> I have a very good Doepfer and it does do what I want, but honestly I tried three or four in the shop and chose this particular one over others whose keybeds I found inferior. I can't even quite remember how much it cost.
> 
> At the time, it was the best I encountered. I was shocked at how feeble so many keyboards were that I tried -- amazingly flimsy, uneven key response, total rubbish buttons and sliders. Many of them substituted a childishly weak joystick for wheels. Overall, the selection was amazingly weak.
> 
> And I'm no virtuoso on the keys either, so this is not a finicky keyboard maestro talking.
> 
> Maybe it's better now? @chimuelo recommended the Physis a number of times, but I haven't seen those around for a while.


Take the time and go to a Guitar Center or Sam Ash that has lots of choices and just play each keyboard so you make sure it’s what you want, John. I use a Casio Privia and also have a Roland XV-88. Try all the usual suspects: Korg, Kawai, Yamaha, Doepfer, Native Instruments, Casio, Nord, Roland, Studiologic, Kurzweil.


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## vitocorleone123

I don't have an answer, but I wonder if the electronic concert piano kind of market would be the one to dig into. You'd then use a separate knobby controller for knobs and sliders etc.


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## JohnG

These are good answers. I never considered the pianos but maybe that's another route.

I did go to more than one Guitar Center (one of those and a couple others) and was startled at how poor the build quality was on what I tried.

Maybe when the stores are open / risk declines, I'll have another go. These are good ideas, though so thanks everyone.

John


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## Rasoul Morteza

Frankly years ago when I was testing out the 88-key MIDI controllers at several local shops they... all felt very cheap and most importantly, noisy. That's why I just bought a Yamaha synth that had good key action for a good deal and plugged it in, never looked back. Yes it has 1000 buttons you will never use, but at least it feels solid.

The Montage or a 2nd hand Motif XF if you can find one will be very nice, but I think they cost considerably more than 2K.

Cheers


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## JohnG

I will look around. I'm not saying, "money is no object," but I'm ready to change.


Rasoul Morteza said:


> That's why I just bought a Yamaha synth that had good key action for a good deal and plugged it in, never looked back. Yes it has 1000 buttons you will never use, but at least it feels solid.



I know what you mean about extra buttons. I never looked at this route either, at least not very thoroughly.

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone.


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## Quasar

I haven't tried all or nearly all of them of course, but have tried quite a few. If money were no object, I would get a high-end Yamaha or Kawai digital piano, and a separate dedicated unit for high quality knobs and faders for CC control...

...I have never tried, heard of or read a review of a "midi controller" that has a great keybed and a great set of MIDI control sliders, at least on a level that competes with the best digital pianos or synths.

I did try several of the Casio Privia series a while back because they offer fantastic specs at their respective price points, but was not at all impressed with the either the key feel or the build quality impression...


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## proxima

I have a Kawai MP11 (first edition), and while the action is great, some people like me are bitten by a design flaw that makes the keys sticky over time. I had to spend a fair bit of time replacing teflon tape on each key and crossing my fingers that my fix is long-lived. To my knowledge, nothing about that design has changed with the second edition, and many other Kawais have the same keybed. I would not buy one again, though I'm hopeful I have mine working for several more years.

I also had issues with DOA keyboards (mp10 and mp11) when I first got them - stuck keys, etc. 

I almost ended up with a Yamaha CP4 at the time, but I was picky about the slightest flaw and returned one. If I had to do it over I'd consider a cp4 again, or go less "real wood" style and get the 88 key NI model. It sucks to inherit some of the maintenance problems of wood key action without the ability to have a piano tuner fix it up.


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## Nick Batzdorf

VSL showed a super-high-end controller at NAMM a couple or few years ago. Can't find any info...

These might be good: https://www.casiomusicgear.com/products/celviano-series

There was also a futuristic keyboard controller at NAMM last year. An Asian classical pianist was demoing it and that's all I remember. I'm no use here.


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## Greg

I absolutely love my nord piano 2! It really is a notch above every other midi controller Ive tried. So much so that I bought 2, one for practicing and one for the studio


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## Jackdnp121

Hey dude

i've been playing professionally as a keyboardist ( 6 nights a week ) for the last 10 years

and i works casually at a piano store , i've tried all the Yamaha - Roland - Kawai - Casio

and i also owns nord stage 2

anyway

i think the Pha-50 wooden Keys Action ( Rd-2000 , Fantom 8, Fp90 ) are the best action for me out there

i use phantom 8 for composing myself ( abit over kill )

but i think Rd-2000 is a Great option because it also comes in with quite afew faders as well .

the other cheaper PHA-50 option will be Fp-90 which also comes in with build in speaker


HOWEVER - due to Covid-19

Everything is really hard to get now

so yeah ...

good luck mate !

Jack


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## chillbot

Jackdnp121 said:


> i've been playing professionally as a keyboardist ( 6 nights a week ) for the last 10 years
> 
> and i works casually at a piano store , i've tried all the Yamaha - Roland - Kawai - Casio


I would trust this guys opinion given the credentials.

John, if you want to get out and socially distance we can disinfect everything and you could try the RD2000 here at the studio and also my Yamaha Motif XF8.

I've mentioned this before in other threads, I was a Kurzweil guy for most of my life, switched to Yamaha because I love the feel, but it's very similar to me. Like you, I wanted to get what I liked regardless of price. As such I wound up with this giant beast of a XF8 which is total overkill, I don't need or use any of the features. I just like the feel of the keyboard, and the position of the faders and the wheels. But that is 90% of it. OK also it let me sell my Motif Rack when I got the keyboard, but I never use those sounds much anymore. OK also it helps that it is a big giant keyboard that is heavy as fuck. Because some of the lighter keyboards, even if the action is good, just the weight of it being lighter gives you a different feel, not as solid.

Regarding the RD2000, it does NOT feel like a piano to me. Nor does it feel like a rhodes or organ. Nor does it feel like any other keyboard I've experienced. The only way I can describe it is "silky smooth". Even though I've searched for a "piano-like" feel for most of my life, and the RD2000 does not give you a "piano-like" feel, I would not hesitate to swap my keyboard out for J's RD2000. I am really a huge fan. Not sure about how the faders work (they double as organ drawbars, I bought it mostly for live performance but I've yet to use it as such), seems like we ran into issues with those. J uses a x-touch with it. You could ask him. Anyway, just my two-cents.


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## Rory

Maybe I’m wrong, but as I read the original post it’s about the build quality of the product more than about the feel of the keys in relation to an acoustic piano or synthesizer.


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## chillbot

I don't know if that's directed at my post but in so far as the keyboards I like they definitely fit the bill. If you got $3k to throw at a glorified midi inputter...


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## jononotbono

I've recently been trying out a Yamaha Motif XF8 at the studio I currently work at and I have to say it feels like the best Keyboard I've tried to date. Like, I instantly thought the action felt good before I even plugged it in. Most of these keyboards feel like total junk so it was a nice surprise. And even more so when I did plug it in.


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## mybadmemory

To it seems that build quality doesn’t exist with midi controllers for some reason. You have to buy high end synths or digital pianos to get proper quality and calibrated actions. I myself purchased a Nord Piano 3 to use for this since it was the best experience I could find in the shop.

I then discovered it only sends midi velocity 0-120 and not 121-127. So be vary of that if you go the piano route!


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## Jan16

Nick Batzdorf said:


> VSL showed a super-high-end controller at NAMM a couple or few years ago. Can't find any info...


Would that be the FLKeys Lachnit controller? (http://www.flkeys.at/home.html)


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## Daniel

The cheap Yamaha P-45 / Roland FP-10 works fine to me for weighted keybed . Plus iRigKEYS 37 for modwheel/synth keybed.
I don't need slider etc. Happy to produce a music.


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## bill5

JonS said:


> Take the time and go to a Guitar Center or Sam Ash that has lots of choices and just play each keyboard so you make sure it’s what you want, John. I use a Casio Privia and also have a Roland XV-88. Try all the usual suspects: Korg, Kawai, Yamaha, Doepfer, Native Instruments, Casio, Nord, Roland, Studiologic, Kurzweil.


They must have much bigger stores where you are then me, or they emphasize controllers much more. Where I am they have a smattering of keyboards and little to no controllers; it's mostly if not entirely digital pianos and synths/workstations. GC also has a lot of cheaper ones (Williams etc). 

The Nektars seem to get good reviews, but it sounds like the OP is going for more than "good" and I can't say they're more than that, like not crazy top end good per se.


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## dcoscina

I work in Keyboard sales and have had the benefit of laying my hands on every board that's come through. I've been playing piano/keyboards since I was 11 (I'm 52 now). I own a Kawai upright piano at home, and my controller has been a Kurzweil PC3x for the last decade (a new record for me, since I used to change keyboards like underwear). If I had to choose a single keyboard that feels great I'd go with the Nord Grand. I love that board. The sound is amazing as well. They use the Kawai portable hammer action (so it's not that same wood keys as found in the VPC or MP11 as Nord didn't want to have an 80lb stage piano on their hands). Down the line, that would be my ideal choice with StaffPad on my iPad resting atop its lovely wood veneer. 

the Roland Fantom 8 with its PHA50 action, for me, is way too heavy for a keyboard controller. It feels great when playing piano but if I were to be attempting to play in orchestral lines, nope.

I had the opportunity to use a Roland A88mk2 for a month. It was nice but I prefer my Kurzweil. HATED the level and lack of mod wheels. Plus it's a very deep set keybed and my controller sits on top of my desk so my wrists hurt after protracted used.

NI Kontrol S88mk2 and Arturia Keylab 88mk2 both use the same Fatar keybed. However, because its housed in different material (NI uses a cheap plastic case, Arturia metal with wood end caps), the action comes off differently. The key response on the Arturia is sluggish but I find both to be a little flabby in that regard. 

Yamaha CP88 is actually a superb controller and great digi piano. No mod wheel but the action is really solid and so is the case- metal. I dare say when playing VIs through it, it even tops the Nord Grand. Also it's cheaper. Yamaha also recently provided a sizeable update for it that expands its sounds. I'd probably go for this as an all rounder. I like the feel of the keys as well- not glossy, more woodgrain feeling. 

MODX8- nice same action as P125 from what I've been told. But do you need all of its internal sounds? 

Korg SV2, Kronos 88/73, GS-173/188- all use their RH3 action. Triggering their internal sounds, the Korgs are nice. I don't love how they interact with VIs though. 

Nord Stage 3 HP or 88. Nice top of the line boards with a plethora of internal sounds/engines. The most expensive of their line. Action is a bit heavy for my tastes. I also find the velocity curves on Nord don't necessarily do well with VIs... so as a controller, I wouldn't personally spend this kind of money. They are more a gigging musician's axe of choice. 

Studio Logic- our store used to carry a bunch and recently we got in the Numa. I used an SL990 prior to getting my PC3x. Nice but StudioLogic has issues with build quality and their software/firmware. I know many people who own them and love them however. I liked the action from what I recall. It's like the PC3x- weighted by nimble enough to pull off convincing lines when playing orchestral based instruments.


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## JohnG

chillbot said:


> John, if you want to get out and socially distance we can disinfect everything and you could try the RD2000 here at the studio and also my Yamaha Motif XF8.



That's a really cool offer @chillbot

I have two cues left to write and then about 100 minutes to get ready for the orchestrator, with not quite enough time to do it.

So maybe October?



dcoscina said:


> I used to change keyboards like underwear



So, monthly, then?

That's super helpful David. I do have a nice Steinway so I like that, but a real piano's feel seems rather weighty for playing in flute runs etc. The action on a real piano is heavier than my Doepfer and I fear 18 hour days would destroy my wrists.

What's the deal with no mod wheels???? I ran into this last time (along with an amazing lack of floor models of anything costing >$700). The Yamaha and the Nord Grand look great but how do you work a mod wheel? I have always loved the Nord synths I've tried but never bought one. And Yamaha has made great pianos for a long time too.


Jackdnp121 said:


> i think the Pha-50 wooden Keys Action ( Rd-2000 , Fantom 8, Fp90 ) are the best action out there
> 
> i use phantom 8 for composing myself ( abit over kill )



Hi Jack, thanks for your suggestion. What do you think about the "heaviness" of the action? I spend ages writing my cues so 14-18 hours are pretty common.


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## JohnG

bill5 said:


> Where I am they have a smattering of keyboards and little to no controllers; it's mostly if not entirely digital pianos and synths/workstations. GC also has a lot of cheaper ones (Williams etc).



Same here, Bill. An incredibly cheap-feeling, rubbishy, basement-for-kids selection.


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## JohnG

Thanks everyone.

Just one more set of clarifications:

DO need:

1. Velocity curve flexibility;
2. Good but not heavy action and consistency across 88 keys (do not want anything as heavy as a real piano);
3. No 'ghost' sending of cc data from floppy joystick, wheels, sliders, knobs;

Really want:

4. Mod wheel and pitch bend wheel;
5. Two or more sliders, or rotatable buttons that can send other cc data (27, 10 etc.)

Don't need:

6. Built-in sounds;
7. Keyboard splits;
8. Hundreds of presets available -- I will use two at most.

Thanks everyone.

Given that it seems some of the best keyboards don't include a mod wheel, what do you guys substitute for that?


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## Rory

dcoscina said:


> I work in Keyboard sales and have had the benefit of laying my hands on every board that's come through.



Nice overview. As I understand it, the Kawaii VPC 1 has been out for seven years. As someone in keyboard sales, do you have a sense of whether it’s due for version 2?


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## jononotbono

dcoscina said:


> MODX8- nice same action as P125 from what I've been told. But do you need all of its internal sounds?



Easily the best action on a Controller I have tried so far. The reason it exists at the studio I work at is for a live band that gigs local gigs and it's for stand in Jazz Pianists. The internal sounds are good for that gigging scenario but I would not say someone should buy this Keyboard for the sounds. The sounds are horrible especially when compared with Sample Libraries. It's a $2k Keyboard so it's not cheap but this thing has definitely been built for performance in mind. I would love to steal it for a bit and use it for composition with Sample Libraries but right now it's being used. Maybe when it starts snowing I can steal it for a bit.



dcoscina said:


> NI Kontrol S88mk2 and Arturia Keylab 88mk2 both use the same Fatar keybed. However, because its housed in different material (NI uses a cheap plastic case, Arturia metal with wood end caps), the action comes off differently. The key response on the Arturia is sluggish but I find both to be a little flabby in that regard.



Both just feel horrible. The Arturia definitely the worst out of the two. But then again, I wouldn't even consider these to be options for someone like John as he is looking for "the best" or something in a different league to these. He already has the LMK4+ which pisses over these two options and that's saying something... because the LMK4+ is quite nice but I didn't particularly enjoy the feeling of excitement dissipating when I tried one out for about 6 months


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## jononotbono

@JohnG

Just get this man. Perfect for modern day Pop writing with a great action!


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## JohnG

jononotbono said:


> @JohnG
> 
> Just get this man. Perfect for modern day Pop writing with a great action!



Already got one.


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## dcoscina

Rory said:


> Nice overview. As I understand it, the Kawaii VPC 1 has been out for seven years. As someone in keyboard sales, do you have a sense of whether it’s due for version 2?


Our store sadly does not carry Kawai. They have an exclusive deal with another Canadian company (not Long and McQuade). I have played a VPC and they are gorgeous. 

Ideally, the ultimate choice would be a Yamaha Avant Grand. Unlike digis, it's got real piano mechanics and real piano parts right from the key through to the hammer. It feels heavenly. Kawai also makes a hybrid but I've not tried it. But these are BIG pianos. They are pretty much full sized uprights or Baby Grand size....


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## JohnG

Yamaha keeps coming up and they have mod wheels built in. If there's a separate mod wheel that people find good that would be fine too.

Looks as though the Motif XF8 has been superseded by the Montage8. Any idea how the keyboard feel compares with the Yamaha MODX8? Looks as though the latter has fewer buttons but I don't need so many, and the MODX8 is enough.

The mod wheel is pretty far away on the MODX8 -- seems quite a reach for long writing sessions.

More convenient on the MotifXF8/ Montage8


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## JohnG

dcoscina said:


> Ideally, the ultimate choice would be a Yamaha Avant Grand. Unlike digis, it's got real piano mechanics and real piano parts right from the key through to the hammer. It feels heavenly. Kawai also makes a hybrid but I've not tried it. But these are BIG pianos. They are pretty much full sized uprights or Baby Grand size....



Yeah -- that's too much. I would have to reconfigure my studio and anyway, I don't think I could endure all-day / all-night playing on a real piano action. My wrists/fingers/forearms already are kind of a mess.


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## muk

+1 to everybody who suggested a digital piano. If build quality and the keybed are important, digital pianos are just miles ahead of midi keyboards. Even the entry level Casio Privia models are better quality than even high end midi keyboards. 

I am using a Roland FP 7F daily since years, and never had a single problem. It just works from day one, transmits all velocity levels from 0-127 on all keys, the action is consistent.

I would compile a list of digital pianos that would suit your needs from well-known brands (Roland, Kawai, Yamaha, Casio etc.). Then go to the stores and test them, and choose the one with the keybed you like the most.


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## jononotbono

JohnG said:


> The mod wheel is pretty far away on the MODX8 -- seems quite a reach for long writing sessions.



Regarding Modwheel, I've been using Modwheel assigned to a physical fader for quite some time. This started for me because my crap 88 Note weighted keyboard back in England doesn't have a Modwheel, and since using a dedicated fader, I actually prefer it. Depending on what fader unit you use, you can position it wherever you feel comfortable. My favourite Fader unit is the JLCooper Fadermaster Pro but they have been discontinued (mine is back in England which is really useful) so at the minute I'm using a horrendous (but workable) Korg NanoKontrol thing. I'm going to buy a Behringer X Touch Compact next as it has touch sensitive faders which is excellent for riding CC data. It's also USB instead of 5 pin midi so that's one less hassle to contend with. I would never recommend anything Behringher normally but the Compact is definitely a decent fader unit.

Anyway, it's just a thought that may help with any purchase deciding factors as it makes the need for a mod wheel completely void.


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## JonS

JohnG said:


> That's a really cool offer @chillbot
> 
> I have two cues left to write and then about 100 minutes to get ready for the orchestrator, with not quite enough time to do it.
> 
> So maybe October?
> 
> 
> 
> So, monthly, then?
> 
> That's super helpful David. I do have a nice Steinway so I like that, but a real piano's feel seems rather weighty for playing in flute runs etc. The action on a real piano is heavier than my Doepfer and I fear 18 hour days would destroy my wrists.
> 
> What's the deal with no mod wheels???? I ran into this last time (along with an amazing lack of floor models of anything costing >$700). The Yamaha and the Nord Grand look great but how do you work a mod wheel? I have always loved the Nord synths I've tried but never bought one. And Yamaha has made great pianos for a long time too.
> 
> 
> Hi Jack, thanks for your suggestion. What do you think about the "heaviness" of the action? I spend ages writing my cues so 14-18 hours are pretty common.


You mention an important topic, John. It's amazing how many hours composers work when on a project, 18 hours a day is typical. What other profession works like that other than a young resident doctor paying his dues in the ER at only the beginning of his career before he plays golf 3 days a week? NO ONE!!! Even truck drivers are not allowed to drive more than 11 hours straight. Unless you are a big time composer, I would argue the vast majority of composers are way underpaid on an hourly basis. Remember how expensive it is to buy all this gear. When I am working on a project it's 18+ hour days (add in an all-nighter or two) 7 days a week and you still feel like there is no where near enough time. That's 130 hours a week and how often does one make $25,000 a week composing? Not often.... So if you are lucky to make half that then you make less than $100 an hour doing a job that requires a lot of expensive capital expenditures. How many composers even make $12,500 a week? I bet not many. You can't find electricians and plumbers to work so cheaply and they don't have to spend so much on equipment to do their jobs. A decent musician will get $100 an hour, a good studio session musician will get $150 an hour and if he is a lead ie. first violinist then double that rate to $300 an hour. Most composers are getting way less than $100 an hour, which I find absurd. When one thinks about how much actors, gaffers, and others get paid, it's absurd how too many composers don't get paid well, and I am not talking about A-list composers. 

Back on topic, since you want a keyboard with lighter feel that makes things even more complicated as I can't imagine how you will make this decision without playing a lot of keyboards until you figure out what suits you the best


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## Nick Batzdorf

Jan16 said:


> Would that be the FLKeys Lachnit controller? (http://www.flkeys.at/home.html)



That must be it. Thanks.


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## PaulieDC

JonS said:


> Take the time and go to a Guitar Center or Sam Ash that has lots of choices and just play each keyboard so you make sure it’s what you want, John. I use a Casio Privia and also have a Roland XV-88. Try all the usual suspects: Korg, Kawai, Yamaha, Doepfer, Native Instruments, Casio, Nord, Roland, Studiologic, Kurzweil.


Have you been to those stores in the last month? Here in Phoenix they are cleaned out, maybe 12 guitars in the store, almost no keyboards. People used stimulus checks to buy gear, many who started to learn how to play due to isolation, and getting new stock from China and other countries of origin has been nearly non-existent. I'm waiting on a StudioLogic SL88 Grand, no online dealer has any. At this point I might as well wait for Black Friday!


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## JonS

PaulieDC said:


> Have you been to those stores in the last month? Here in Phoenix they are cleaned out, maybe 12 guitars in the store, almost no keyboards. People used stimulus checks to buy gear, many who started to learn how to play due to isolation, and getting new stock from China and other countries of origin has been nearly non-existent. I'm waiting on a StudioLogic SL88 Grand, no online dealer has any. At this point I might as well wait for Black Friday!


I have not been to any music stores in a long time, so you are right. I am totally forgetting about the surreal almost Zombie-apocalypse that is reality.


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## PaulieDC

JonS said:


> I have not been to any music stores in a long time, so you are right. I am totally forgetting about the surreal almost Zombie-apocalypse that is reality.


I just discovered this the other day! Haven't been to any stores before the whole mess started.


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## PaulieDC

John, the new https://www.amazon.com/Roland-MKII-88-Key-Keyboard-Controller/dp/B083F74NJS (Roland A-88 MKII is about the only one available out there), and Amazon has an awesome return policy so you technically could test it for a few weeks. Every controller has some issue and for Roland it's the goofball joystick. I use a FaderPort so in my world it's not an issue. I'd probably get this for myself (I'm on the same hunt as you) but phone booths are bigger than my workspace, it's just too long, I need 50" MAX.

It has the "lesser" PH4 keybed, same one as the RD800, and no transport controls if that's needed. But it's triple sensor, has escapement, supports MIDI 2.0 for whenever the DAW manufacturers start to ponder that option, and runs off USB-C so it's definitely cleanly bus-powered. Most importantly, if we took a poll on reliability, Roland would probably be more on the favorable side. Plus, several users have said that the velocity curve out of the box has been surprisingly good. Maybe something to try, Amazon pays return shipping when something doesn't work for you.

Now that I wrote this I'm trying to determine what part of my desk I can attack with a chain saw to fit this thing, lol. I'd buy it today if I could. Anyway, just my $.02 before Fed/State taxes and 401K deduction.


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## muk

Jan16 said:


> Would that be the FLKeys Lachnit controller? (http://www.flkeys.at/home.html)



The Lachnit uses a Fatar TP40/Wood keybed. They write that they manually adjust every single key. For a 'super high end'-controller at that pricepoint I would have expected that they start from a much less mediocre keybed though. I haven't played a Lachnit, so I don't know how well the tweaks work. But I'd be wary to part with that amount of cash to essentially get a glorified Fatar keybed.


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## PaulieDC

muk said:


> The Lachnit uses a Fatar TP40/Wood keybed. They write that they manually adjust every single key. For a 'super high end'-controller at that pricepoint I would have expected that they start from a much less mediocre keybed though. I haven't played a Lachnit, so I don't know how well the tweaks work. But I'd be wary to part with that amount of cash to essentially get a glorified Fatar keybed.


I've pondered that: get the SL88 Grand, play it until a malfunction occurs, then open 'er up and see how to fix each key. Someone already did a "How-To" video with the SL88 Studio's TP/100LR here. And here.

Sorry John (OP), got a little off the rails topic-wise.


----------



## JohnG

I hadn't considered the possibility of backlog because of Covid but -- duh.

I'm going to check out the Yamaha at Chlllbot's maybe in October. Fingers crossed by the new year there will be some medical advances that help quell this thing.

In the mean time, I'm not suffering too badly (joke) with the Doepfer so I'm good until things become available.

Seems like Roland and Yamaha are the top favourites, but not locked in on anything until we try. And Nord.

Really totally absolutely not interested in trading the very serviceable Doepfer for anything that is too heavy to play for long hours or that has a reputation for needing maintenance (yikes!).


----------



## JonS

JohnG said:


> I hadn't considered the possibility of backlog because of Covid but -- duh.
> 
> I'm going to check out the Yamaha at Chlllbot's maybe in October. Fingers crossed by the new year there will be some medical advances that help quell this thing.
> 
> In the mean time, I'm not suffering too badly (joke) with the Doepfer so I'm good until things become available.
> 
> Seems like Roland and Yamaha are the top favourites, but not locked in on anything until we try. And Nord.
> 
> Really totally absolutely not interested in trading the very serviceable Doepfer for anything that is too heavy to play for long hours or that has a reputation for needing maintenance (yikes!).


John, I've never played a Doepfer, what don't you like about it?


----------



## Greg

mybadmemory said:


> To it seems that build quality doesn’t exist with midi controllers for some reason. You have to buy high end synths or digital pianos to get proper quality and calibrated actions. I myself purchased a Nord Piano 3 to use for this since it was the best experience I could find in the shop.
> 
> I then discovered it only sends midi velocity 0-120 and not 121-127. So be vary of that if you go the piano route!



Is it broken? My nord piano 2 sends 127


----------



## mybadmemory

Greg said:


> Is it broken? My nord piano 2 sends 127



It’s a bug in the NP3. Confirmed by Nord over email but sadly never got fixed.


----------



## JohnG

JonS said:


> John, I've never played a Doepfer, what don't you like about it?



It's really fine. Maybe I'm going to try others and think I'm an idiot. Happens frequently.


----------



## shponglefan

JohnG said:


> Seems like Roland and Yamaha are the top favourites, but not locked in on anything until we try. And Nord.



Check out Kurzweil as well. Admittedly I haven't followed them too closely of late, but the action on their older models was quite good.


----------



## jononotbono

JohnG said:


> It's really fine. Maybe I'm going to try others and think I'm an idiot. Happens frequently.



It's definitely the best looking one with the Flight case built in and the wheels are my favourite so far.


----------



## maestro2be

My two personal favorites after years of searching and visiting stores are the AvantGrand and the Roland RD-2000 which I ultimately decided to buy. My decision process was purely from a "pianist" stand point. I have "controllers" from other vendors and they are nice and soft, smushy and easy to play but I never use them. My RD-2000 sits right beside a concert grand piano and while there's a difference, it's really a nice feeling controller. Best I could find after the AvantGrand.

It has many sexy buttons and faders on it but it will take BOME midi mapping translator to use them to their fullest potential. I had my last digital piano for 25 years (it's now been moved to my 4 year old sons room). I will probably do the same with this unit.


----------



## mgnoatto

jononotbono said:


> @JohnG
> 
> Just get this man. Perfect for modern day Pop writing with a great action!


That's the one for Reggaeton!

I currently have the MODX6 and it's a great controller (with the new OS), the sounds are pretty good to live gigs, some of them are really usable for production, but the VIs are better and easier to setup, remember, save, etc. I absolutely loved the MODX8, to me, Yamaha has the nicest keys I've tried so far. I will have one someday, it could be a little overkill but I've learned that keys with sounds are better controllers than the silent ones (at least in the mid-price range). For pianos now I'm using a Roland RD-150, to me it feels much nicer than the RD-2000 but it doesn't have any faders


----------



## JohnG

I think if anything I will end up with a Yamaha or Roland, because of the mod wheel. I'm sure there's an outboard mod wheel I could use with one of the Nords but blah.


----------



## JohnG

shponglefan said:


> Check out Kurzweil as well. Admittedly I haven't followed them too closely of late, but the action on their older models was quite good.



That's true. I wore out my old PC-88; got so rattly and noisy I couldn't hear soft passages.


----------



## MisteR

Paul Thomson of SF mentioned in a recent video that he moved from Doepfer to a Physis K4:

https://www.viscountinstruments.com/physis-piano-k4-83.html
Looks interesting...


----------



## JohnG

Yes it does. @chimuelo used one for years and maybe still has one.

No way to demo it, however. I don't think it's wise to buy anything that I can't try out. I know you may be able to return it but -- sheesh. Who wants to?


----------



## Jackdnp121

JohnG said:


> That's a really cool offer @chillbot
> 
> Hi Jack, thanks for your suggestion. What do you think about the "heaviness" of the action? I spend ages writing my cues so 14-18 hours are pretty common.



Hi John, The heaviest action I’ve tried is the Yamaha CLP 685 ( new Clp785 ) but that’s digital ‘piano ‘ with Grand piano feel. I think all the portable one are within the comfort range but I do see some composer leaning toward the lighter action, in that case, Yamaha will be great, anything above modx8 will be good except CP88 ( leaning more ‘heavy’ like Rd2000 ) or even a good second hand Yamaha Motif will be good as well. Choosing piano is exactly like choosing string library , i always tell the customer there isn’t necessary the ‘best’ one but the one you prefer. So You should give them try if you have a chance. My recommendation is based more toward from a keyboardist and ‘composer wonnabe’ also personal preference however Rd2000 does have some slider , great action AND is pretty damn solid 😀

p.s Yamaha and Roland are really hard to get now . due to COVID 

Cheers

All the best mate


----------



## nolotrippen

I have an M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 and have been pounding on it for several years (10+). Everything still works. No aftertouch is the only drag and, of course, they don't make it anymore. But perhaps a used one would turn up. How helpful was I? About 18%.


----------



## JohnG

nolotrippen said:


> How helpful was I? About 18%.



I'm thinking at least 23%


----------



## JohnG

Jackdnp121 said:


> My recommendation is based more toward from a keyboardist and ‘composer wonnabe’ also personal preference however Rd2000 does have some slider , great action AND is pretty damn solid 😀



I'm more composer first and piano player wannabe, so my preference leans toward something that's actually _not_ too much like a piano. I have a piano and it's fun to play, but not from 4 AM to midnight.


----------



## dcoscina

shponglefan said:


> Check out Kurzweil as well. Admittedly I haven't followed them too closely of late, but the action on their older models was quite good.


Kurzweil did release a PC4 last summer. It's light case but does have pitch, mod wheel, a plethora of sliders (I like that), and an action that is similar to my existing PC3x. However it's housed in a plastic case. Kurzweil support has always been a little wonky so I dunno how that would work for you. As purely a controller, there's a lot to like about it and its price point is much cheaper than its previous generation. I would at least check it out. The action is nice feeling for controlling VIs plus it has some nice internal sounds. 

The Motif XS now Montage have heavier keys than the MODX. I used to gig with a Motif ES8 and the thing was a bloody tank... so damned big and heavy, so I moved to the S90 series after. I think Teddy Shapiro uses the S90 key bed inside his Beijer customer studio desk. Yammy's have nice key action. Quiet and well made. I wish they still made stand alone controllers like the KX series.... I wonder why they don't since there's such a huge market for composing with computers and virtual instruments... weird... The last controller was the KX8 (mid 2000s??) that was again a nice keybed housed in a really crappy plastic case. Very big... for no reason. Or perhaps that was even earlier... I cannot remember. Keyboards, underwear... ya know...


----------



## dcoscina

JohnG said:


> I'm more composer first and piano player wannabe, so my preference leans toward something that's actually _not_ too much like a piano. I have a piano and it's fun to play, but not from 4 AM to midnight.


Check out my post above John. You should at least check out the Kurzweil PC4. It's not a bad design. Faders are really nice feeling and plenty of them.


----------



## sinkd

pmountford said:


> I'm no virtuoso on the keys either but I can tell a difference between this Roland RD2000 to anything else I've had or played and I wouldn't rush to swap it. Have you tried the RD2000 yet?


I have an RD-170 that is still great feeling, good compromise between full on hammer action weighted piano feel and "synth" responsiveness. But I have to deploy other controllers, etc.


----------



## Alex Fraser

JohnG said:


> I'm thinking at least 23%


In an effort to be at least 25% helpful... 

I've "relegated" the '88 to secondary controller status, sitting at a right angle to the desk with an M32 on the desktop for general production duties.

If you did something akin to this, you could pick an '88 that you'd enjoy for piano type stuff but not care too much about any "heavyness" as you won't be pounding it 18 hours a day.

Maybe only 10% helpful? Carry on..


----------



## JohnG

From some of the posts above, it sounds like, apart from Chillbot's studio, there isn't going to be a lot of testing any time soon. Certainly not at a store.

Anyway, back to work. One of my disk drives failed so ???

It's always something.


----------



## bill5

PaulieDC said:


> John, the new https://www.amazon.com/Roland-MKII-88-Key-Keyboard-Controller/dp/B083F74NJS (Roland A-88 MKII is about the only one available out there),
> 
> no transport controls if that's needed.


A $1000 MIDI controller without transport controls?? That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. I do like Roland, and esp love that they use the joystick instead of the wheels, but cmon.


----------



## JohnG

Well Bill -- I hear you but I can't picture ever using transport controls, not because they are a bad idea but just because I never have.

My hands kind of fly around the (computer) keyboard out of habit.


----------



## cuttime

I have to ask, is aftertouch important to you? If so, then I believe you will not be happy with any current keyboard beds. I think the nature of the beast is that aftertouch keys have a "mushy" feel to contend with.


----------



## jononotbono

JohnG said:


> Yes it does. @chimuelo used one for years and maybe still has one.
> 
> No way to demo it, however. I don't think it's wise to buy anything that I can't try out. I know you may be able to return it but -- sheesh. Who wants to?



Yeah this is the one I want to try! Chimuelo is easily the dirtiest keyboard pervert in all of VI-C lands. His advice has to be listened to. The Physis has to be good! The one! The final purchase (if such a thing could possibly exist)? I might get one on credit 😂


----------



## bill5

JohnG said:


> Well Bill -- I hear you but I can't picture ever using transport controls, not because they are a bad idea but just because I never have.
> 
> My hands kind of fly around the (computer) keyboard out of habit.


Different strokes I guess! To me that's one of the main reasons to get a controller in the first place. If you don't need that and want weighted, I'd think a digital piano makes much more sense.


----------



## JohnG

But I don't want weighted. I want semi-weighted. I think I've said that four times!

I already have a piano and can write using it. I can't play a fully weighted keyboard for 16 hours, weeks on end.


----------



## JohnG

jononotbono said:


> Yeah this is the one I want to try! Chimuelo is easily the dirtiest keyboard pervert in all of VI-C lands. His advice has to be listened to. The Physis has to be good! The one! The final purchase (if such a thing could possibly exist)? I might get one on credit 😂



You should check in with him. I think he might have a new favourite


----------



## JohnG

cuttime said:


> I have to ask, is aftertouch important to you? If so, then I believe you will not be happy with any current keyboard beds. I think the nature of the beast is that aftertouch keys have a "mushy" feel to contend with.



Good point but the answer is no -- I don't care about aftertouch. Might give me flashbacks of cheesy 80s synth solos.


----------



## bill5

JohnG said:


> But I don't want weighted. I want semi-weighted. I think I've said that four times!
> 
> I already have a piano and can write using it. I can't play a fully weighted keyboard for 16 hours, weeks on end.


ah sorry! I have the attention span of a........wait what are we talking about again??


----------



## jononotbono

JohnG said:


> Good point but the answer is no -- I don't care about aftertouch. Might give me flashbacks of cheesy 80s synth solos.



I’m thinking you should get a semi weighted Keytar instead. Twin neck of course.


----------



## emilio_n

maestro2be said:


> My two personal favorites after years of searching and visiting stores are the AvantGrand and the Roland RD-2000 which I ultimately decided to buy. My decision process was purely from a "pianist" stand point. I have "controllers" from other vendors and they are nice and soft, smushy and easy to play but I never use them. My RD-2000 sits right beside a concert grand piano and while there's a difference, it's really a nice feeling controller. Best I could find after the AvantGrand.
> 
> It has many sexy buttons and faders on it but it will take BOME midi mapping translator to use them to their fullest potential. I had my last digital piano for 25 years (it's now been moved to my 4 year old sons room). I will probably do the same with this unit.


Another vote for RD-2000. After a long search is the best Keybey I found. With Bome MIDI Translator you can use all the controls, faders, knobs as you like. Rock-solid and even with an Audio Interface integrated if you don't need additional inputs.


----------



## bill5

PS I would be leery of the term "semi-weighted," which can mean anything from synth action to actually semi-weighted to varying degrees (i.e. where it lies on the path between synth and weighted)


----------



## JohnG

bill5 said:


> ah sorry! I have the attention span of a........wait what are we talking about again??



Sorry I was such a goofball in my response -- my fault entirely.


----------



## JohnG

jononotbono said:


> Twin neck of course.



One twelve string? Or seven?


----------



## AllanH

I'm on my second Kurzweil in 25 years, so that says something about the build quality. When getting the PC3LE8, I was not especially interested in the sounds but liked the number of dials, pads, a buttons. It's a Fatar TP40L action which was the deciding factor. For "pure" piano playing, our Kawai CA97 is vastly superior and (to me) plays like a real grand. The CA97 does not have a mod-wheel or any other midi controls, but the top is flat, I would just get a small midi pad controller.


----------



## jononotbono

JohnG said:


> One twelve string? Or seven?



OK. I apologise. Keytars are a little bit dated to a specific time period. Forget that.

After a bit more thought, I've found your perfect Controller. Lightguide, Chaos Pads, Semi-Weighted. 24hr Zones. Program Changes. 3 x 88 Keys. Built by Steinway Technicians. Statement Controller for when the neighbours are curtain twitching.

Can't ask for more really? Maybe the Organ from the Goonies with some midi touch sensors modded in there but that's probably gonna be a touch expensive.






For collaborations...


----------



## greggybud

JohnG said:


> Thanks everyone.
> 
> Just one more set of clarifications:
> 
> DO need:
> 
> 1. Velocity curve flexibility;
> 2. Good but not heavy action and consistency across 88 keys (do not want anything as heavy as a real piano);
> 3. No 'ghost' sending of cc data from floppy joystick, wheels, sliders, knobs;
> 
> Really want:
> 
> 4. Mod wheel and pitch bend wheel;
> 5. Two or more sliders, or rotatable buttons that can send other cc data (27, 10 etc.)
> 
> Don't need:
> 
> 6. Built-in sounds;
> 7. Keyboard splits;
> 8. Hundreds of presets available -- I will use two at most.
> 
> Thanks everyone.
> 
> Given that it seems some of the best keyboards don't include a mod wheel, what do you guys substitute for that?




Just about my greatest mistake in life was selling the Oberheim MC3000. At the time I was very foolish thinking the MC3000 would be improved upon, even made better etc. Feel/action is very subjective, but I have never felt something better.

To my knowledge both Mama Mia production tours are still using the MC3000s after all these years!

The 75-pound CME VX8/88 had fairly good action, (very subjective again) but a lot of everything else on paper for the CME never properly materialized physically, and many turned into heavy bricks.

One thing about velocity...not curve velocity.... Make sure whatever controller you choose has enough velocity midi points for your personal satisfaction. There is a little program you can download for Kontakt, then play the keyboard for a while striking the keys at as many different velocities as you can. I was absolutely shocked at the huge velocity gaps in my piece-of-junk Studio Logic VMK 188+. Velocity gaps... meaning it's impossible to trigger any midi between for example midi 60 to midi 70. Maybe the newer controllers don't have as bad as gaps? I haven't checked in the past 10 years.

I wish I could at least try a Physis K4. And like you, built in sounds, splits and presets are pretty worthless to me.


----------



## PaulieDC

bill5 said:


> A $1000 MIDI controller without transport controls?? That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. I do like Roland, and esp love that they use the joystick instead of the wheels, but cmon.


Right there with you on that one. 

I'll end up with the SL88 and a nanoKONTROL2. Need transport and 8 sliders for Spitfire and OT libraries (CTA, Vib, etc). It's the obvious solution, small and cheap. CC 1, 11, 7, 10 etc go on the FaderPort 8. I've ruled out relying on built-in transport controls.


----------



## JohnG

[I'd just like to point out that Jono is posting some weird stuff]


----------



## Arthur Lewis

JohnG said:


> From some of the posts above, it sounds like, apart from Chillbot's studio, there isn't going to be a lot of testing any time soon. Certainly not at a store.
> 
> Anyway, back to work. One of my disk drives failed so ???
> 
> It's always something.


Don’t know where you‘re located, but my local Guitar Center here in NYC has just as much gear available on the floor as they’ve always had. Can’t speak for their inventory though.


----------



## JohnG

Maybe inventory is accumulating there because New Yorkers are not as rich as we are in Los Angeles, @Arthur Lewis ?

I'm chained to my desk anyway at the moment. Haven't crossed the 405 in IDK how long.


----------



## chillbot

Looking online at Sweetwater they don't appear to list any Rolands or Yamahas (just for example) as "out of stock". I think you'll be ok. Sadly the pandemic has not stopped me from ordering gear at the usual rate...


----------



## SupremeFist

Alex Fraser said:


> In an effort to be at least 25% helpful...
> 
> I've "relegated" the '88 to secondary controller status, sitting at a right angle to the desk with an M32 on the desktop for general production duties.
> 
> If you did something akin to this, you could pick an '88 that you'd enjoy for piano type stuff but not care too much about any "heavyness" as you won't be pounding it 18 hours a day.
> 
> Maybe only 10% helpful? Carry on..


I don't have mine at a right angle (yet), but a weighted 88 (I have the Roland FP10, best action for under a grand and built like a tank) and an m32 is a really nice combination. (I supplement with a Nanokontrol too.) If you really want a mod wheel instead of the m32's mod strip (which I'm fine with), you could swap it for some other small knobby controller.


----------



## PaulieDC

All bets off, I ordered the SL88 Grand because the price went up $100 on EVERY site and my Sweetwater guy cut $50 off for me. I went with them for the 2 year warranty. Also, the MixFace has a $50 price drop! Go figure. So, I ordered both. Hopefully by November I'll actually see it.


----------



## bill5

PaulieDC said:


> All bets off, I ordered the SL88 Grand because the price went up $100 on EVERY site


That seems to be going on across the board (price hikes)....covid I reckon


----------



## Fleer

Adding my 2 cents. 
Recently bought a Kurzweil PC4 and a Roland RD-88, both could be interesting for the OP. Got a Yamaha MODX8 before that but there were too many reports regarding keybed quality so I returned it. 
The Kurz PC4 has those legendary Kurzweil sounds plus a new FM engine, a good action and lots of faders. The Roland RD-88 is part of Roland’s famous stage pianos (with great action) but this time also includes 3000 additional sounds from their Fantom flagship, and speakers for home use. And mod wheels. The real McCoy, not that lever thing they put on their A-88 Mk2 controller. I’m also thinking of getting a Roland Fantom 6 for more synth duties.


----------



## shawnsingh

Well, admittedly I haven't spent time to read this entire thread, so sorry if I'm treading old ground. Just want to say, the OP concern is exactly the reason I opted for synth keys instead of piano keys for my controller. Akai MPK261 for me personally, has been as good as any other quality synth key style bed. Then I realized I don't mind so much because there are some other advantages too - synth keys are easier to finger drum, to imitate double/triple tonguing, and feels more precise and agile when trying to record something a bit fast, like some kind of ostinato, etc. 

Some tradeoffs - It does get a little unwieldy with note velocities sometimes, but I've never felt too burdened fixing midi note velocities afterwards. And I do miss the remaining 2 octaves, but it doesn't usually become an issue with virtual instruments, only for sketching or for piano stuff. Akai in particular has a conveniently placed octave switch, right in the middle of the keyboard near the keys, which has been an excellent compromise. I actually chose against Arturia's comparable 61 key controller because the octave switch was placed way off to the left and would not have been convenient.


----------



## jononotbono

JohnG said:


> [I'd just like to point out that Jono is posting some weird stuff]



Right. I've been having another think about thi... ah never mind.


----------



## funnybear

JohnG said:


> But I don't want weighted. I want semi-weighted. I think I've said that four times!
> 
> I already have a piano and can write using it. I can't play a fully weighted keyboard for 16 hours, weeks on end.



I hear you. I was in the same boat and could not find anything commercially available corresponding to what I was after.

In the end decided to mod an existing MIDI controller to give me the ideal action feel I was after.

I wrote up some notes on the project here:





I modded my dream MIDI keyboard for DAW use


I recently build / modded my own MIDI keyboard for DAW use and wanted to share some notes as many of you have faced the same search for an ideal MIDI keyboard for DAW use. The main issue is that commercially available controllers basically split into (1) weighted keyboards that try to replicate...




vi-control.net


----------



## JonS

JohnG said:


> Maybe inventory is accumulating there because New Yorkers are not as rich as we are in Los Angeles, @Arthur Lewis ?
> 
> I'm chained to my desk anyway at the moment. Haven't crossed the 405 in IDK how long.


Perhaps because NYC is the epicenter for COVID19... perhaps...


----------



## Alex Fraser

I'll probably get shot to pieces for this - and it's not aimed at John or anyone in particular - but isn't there a disconnect between the search for the "ideal action" controller and what we _actually do_ on a day to day basis? Single lines with CC control, programming synths, blocking out orchestrations, pounding out Damage percussion... All this can be done on cheapo off-the-shelf controllers without the ergonomic tradeoffs of having 40 pounds+ worth of wood and metal getting in the way.

Granted, as a piano player I prefer the feel of a weighted 88 just like everyone else on the forum. But I need them for like, 20% of my production time?


----------



## funnybear

Alex Fraser said:


> I'll probably get shot to pieces for this - and it's not aimed at John or anyone in particular - but isn't there a disconnect between the search for the "ideal action" controller and what we _actually do_ on a day to day basis? Single lines with CC control, programming synths, blocking out orchestrations, pounding out Damage percussion... All this can be done on cheapo off-the-shelf controllers without the ergonomic tradeoffs of having 40 pounds+ worth of wood and metal getting in the way.
> 
> Granted, as a piano player I prefer the feel of a weighted 88 just like everyone else on the forum. But I need them for like, 20% of my production time?



Depends how much composing vs producing you do in front of your DAW. I sketch out my ideas on a real piano first on paper and then continue in front of the DAW. There I still spend a good amount of time developing musical ideas together with all the production stuff. Musical writing on synth actions (and bad ones even more so) is like using lambskin in the old days .


----------



## JohnG

@Alex Fraser 

You raise a valid question. I've worked on cheap controllers. They can get the job done but they suffer several serious deficiencies:

1. They don't have smooth velocity curves / adjustable velocity curves, so it can be very hard to get some libraries to respond the way you want / need;

2. They send "ghost" cc or other data -- infuriating;

3. They are clacky / noisy / rattly; and

4. Miserable to play / no fun.

The result of all that is that if you're writing something that's actually emotional / sensitive / thoughtful, even if it's for a game or action sequence, you're left fiddling with every single note to get what you want. Moreover, if you're using a library that really does have a lot of responsiveness, you're left with a hit-or-miss ability to control it.

Like @funnybear I also write sometimes at the piano, but I don't want to then go to some horrible-feeling plastic rubbish.


----------



## Alex Fraser

JohnG said:


> @Alex Fraser
> 
> You raise a valid question. I've worked on cheap controllers. They can get the job done but they suffer several serious deficiencies:
> 
> 1. They don't have smooth velocity curves / adjustable velocity curves, so it can be very hard to get some libraries to respond the way you want / need;
> 
> 2. They send "ghost" cc or other data -- infuriating;
> 
> 3. They are clacky / noisy / rattly; and
> 
> 4. Miserable to play / no fun.
> 
> The result of all that is that if you're writing something that's actually emotional / sensitive / thoughtful, even if it's for a game or action sequence, you're left fiddling with every single note to get what you want. Moreover, if you're using a library that really does have a lot of responsiveness, you're left with a hit-or-miss ability to control it.
> 
> Like @funnybear I also write sometimes at the piano, but I don't want to then go to some horrible-feeling plastic rubbish.


All true. I've had some shockers in my time. The worst was an Alesis V61 which actually had bugs in the internal software which would remove played notes from the midi output when playing certain chords. That one was a shocker.

Like you say, expressive performances come most easily from a nice controller. That I won't argue with. It's just that sometimes I think composers compromise comfort and ergonomics in order to get "that 88 note controller" pride of place and in front - only to spend most of the time triggering evos and single line violin parts.

Maybe I've just got short arms. 😉


----------



## JohnG

I guess. I write fairly dense arrangements so I actually sort of need the real estate


----------



## bill5

Alex Fraser said:


> Granted, as a piano player I prefer the feel of a weighted 88 just like everyone else on the forum.


If you mean "when playing piano parts" probably most do, but I'm not one of them. Even then I prefer a semi-weighted, similar to an upright piano, but that's so hard to find...as I mentioned earlier, many things advertised as semi-weighted are really synth action (and oddly on occasion, weighted).


----------



## dcoscina

JohnG said:


> I guess. I write fairly dense arrangements so I actually sort of need the real estate


I've actually had good success with the semi weighted action of the Arturia KeyLab Mk2 series. Unless it's an actual piano part, I find playing in orchestral instrument lines to be better with the synth weighted action of the Keylab to my Kurzweil PC3x. However, as far as weighted actions go, there's a reason why I've stuck with the PC3x for the longest period of time I've ever had a keyboard. It's a nice balance of resistance but nimble enough to avoid finger fatigue.


----------



## JohnG

dcoscina said:


> Unless it's an actual piano part, I find playing in orchestral instrument lines to be better with the synth weighted action



I agree that a fully weighted keyboard is just not the ticket for composing winds, strings and so on.

I prefer semi-weighted or even lighter, but the main things are:

1. Consistency;
2. Quiet (no rattly keys); 
3. Decent quality wheels, buttons, sliders etc (that don't send ghost cc data); and
4. Full spread of midi choices, including 1-127 velocity, mod wheels, and velocity curves that actually work.

A good manual is nice too.


----------



## bill5

JohnG said:


> 3. They are clacky / noisy / rattly; and


In my experience that's more about make and model than being a controller, cheap or not. I've seen that with digital pianos and workstations, and I don't mean the cheapest ones. 



> Like @funnybear I also write sometimes at the piano, but I don't want to then go to some horrible-feeling plastic rubbish.


Then I think you're SOL. At least I've yet to find a semi-weighted keyboard that didn't have those kinds of keys. If anyone knows of one that is on the mid to lower end of pricing let me know!


----------



## JohnG

Well, the Doepfer I have is not bad. Just wondering if there's something even better. Maybe, maybe not.


----------



## dcoscina

JohnG said:


> I agree that a fully weighted keyboard is just not the ticket for composing winds, strings and so on.
> 
> I prefer semi-weighted or even lighter, but the main things are:
> 
> 1. Consistency;
> 2. Quiet (no rattly keys);
> 3. Decent quality wheels, buttons, sliders etc (that don't send ghost cc data); and
> 4. Full spread of midi choices, including 1-127 velocity, mod wheels, and velocity curves that actually work.
> 
> A good manual is nice too.


The Arturia Keylab Mk 2 is a tank. Solid build, great buttons/sliders. And it's a very shallow keyboard so it doesn't sit high on a desk for those who have their keyboard on top of a desk and not on a sliding drawer. Most of the orchestral work I've composed in the last 4 years has largely been on a Korg MicroKey 49 to be honest. I play in line by line and I haven't often used my big set up as much as I used to. Now with the ipad, I've scaled down to a Reface CP for trying voicings out and StaffPad on the ipad. Truly portable.


----------



## JohnG

dcoscina said:


> Arturia Keylab Mk 2



Looked at it online, David. Do you know how it compares (keyboard wise) to the Yamaha offerings? (thinking the ModX, the Montage etc.)?


----------



## PaulieDC

PaulieDC said:


> All bets off, I ordered the SL88 Grand because the price went up $100 on EVERY site and my Sweetwater guy cut $50 off for me. I went with them for the 2 year warranty. Also, the MixFace has a $50 price drop! Go figure. So, I ordered both. Hopefully by November I'll actually see it.


Sorry JohnG, I just realized this is of no help whatsoever to your original post. Well maybe a little, I bought what you aren't looking for, so it shouldn't come up again!


----------



## jononotbono

JohnG said:


> Looked at it online, David. Do you know how it compares (keyboard wise) to the Yamaha offerings? (thinking the ModX, the Montage etc.)?



It’s horrendous in comparison. I am borrowing the Keylab at the min. Horrible action. The Yamaha I recommended before is actually the ModX8 not the ModXF8. My apologies.


----------



## Michael Antrum

The best weighted action I ever played was the Kawai MP11SE. If you are looking for a piano feel that's the one to beat - (VPC1 has a slightly inferior but still great action). It's a bit of a lump however. I'll probably buy one when the upgrade bug next hits.

Some old synths from the 90's were awesome keybeds. I have a Roland XP80 73 key (which I foolishly sold) and it had an action that blew away most of the modern stuff. It woudl be a great controller keyboard for a lightly sprung action.

If you are using it for controlling VI's, perhaps a used Roland RD7000GX or NX (I have played both extensively) will give you a great keybed for little outlay.

I currently use a Nord Stage 2EX - obviously it wasn't bought primarily as a controller, but it's ended up being used as one. The Fatar keybed is a pretty good compromise for piano one minute, and orchestral VI's the other. I also have an Electro 6d, which I bought for waterfall organ duties, which I absolutely adore.

But maybe look at some second hand, older kit, because I often feel that,except for the higher end stuff, they don't make 'em like they used to....


----------



## jaketanner

I also vote for the Kawai MP-11...But if you want to go cheap but still excellent. I would check out the A-Audio Hammer 88...I have it, and granted..ALL weighted keyboards make noise..even an acoustic piano will make a lot of noise if not for the strings...it's just part of the mechanics. Anyway, this keyboard can achieve velocities from 1-127 with extremely little effort...its predictable to play, and smooth. No sliders, but has a mod wheel and pitch bend wheel.

Granted it has plastic keys...but I tell you, once you are playing it, it's quite good and will easily beat out much more expensive models for playability. 

Anyway...other than that, it's the Roland RD2000 and the MP-11

Now..if you want to get nuts, the VPC-1 with the Ravenscroft total make over is probably the best. Ravenscroft, maker of fine acoustic grands, actually takes the keyed apart and re-weighs it to their own specs...this is all endorsed by Kawai BTW, so won't void any warranty.


----------



## bill5

Michael Antrum said:


> The best weighted action I ever played was the Kawai MP11SE. If you are looking for a piano feel


He's not FYI...more of a semi-weighted (or relatively light for weighted) and if I also recall doesn't care about the faders/knobs etc much if at all.

I'm guessing the answer may lie in a workstation vs a controller.


----------



## Nathanael Iversen

It sounds like you have already considered it, but I use the Nord Grand with a JL Cooper Fadermaster on top of its nice flat top. The computer keyboard and mouse are up there too.

I've written about it before, but the best, most expressive actions also happen to be the ones trying to emulate piano well. The best of those actions are made by companies that also make acoustic pianos. That would be Yamaha and Kawai. Personal bias: I do not prefer any Fatar weighted action to the actions of Yamaha or Kawai. I would not have bought the Nord Grand if it had the typical Fatar TP-40 or TP-100 in it.

The Nord's Kawai action is lighter feeling than the current Yamaha digital pianos, but I don't know how they weigh. On the Nord Grand, I can get repeatable MIDI from the mid teens to 127. That is what I can't get out of cheap controllers. They output a small range of 50-80 and then 127's, or some other quirky behavior. The Nord Grand does not have aftertouch, so it isn't rubbery at key bottom - it bottoms like an acoustic piano. I only use it for MIDI - I like the action, I have better pianos in the computer. I like the form factor (big flat top). I already had faders for CC stuff. 

That said, this stuff is all so personal. I ordered the Nord and a Yamaha at the same time, kept the Nord. Still haven't sold the Yamaha P-515, but it too is excellent. The Nord is very close to how it feels to play my acoustic RX-7. The Yamaha, however, has better samples than the Nord, not that I really care or would have used them.... Both these pianos are triple sensor pianos and that is very nice for playing piano.


----------



## bill5

Nathanael Iversen said:


> That said, this stuff is all so personal.


That bears repeating if not putting in big letters across the top of the screen  So subjective.


----------



## JonS

Nathanael Iversen said:


> It sounds like you have already considered it, but I use the Nord Grand with a JL Cooper Fadermaster on top of its nice flat top. The computer keyboard and mouse are up there too.
> 
> I've written about it before, but the best, most expressive actions also happen to be the ones trying to emulate piano well. The best of those actions are made by companies that also make acoustic pianos. That would be Yamaha and Kawai. Personal bias: I do not prefer any Fatar weighted action to the actions of Yamaha or Kawai. I would not have bought the Nord Grand if it had the typical Fatar TP-40 or TP-100 in it.
> 
> The Nord's Kawai action is lighter feeling than the current Yamaha digital pianos, but I don't know how they weigh. On the Nord Grand, I can get repeatable MIDI from the mid teens to 127. That is what I can't get out of cheap controllers. They output a small range of 50-80 and then 127's, or some other quirky behavior. The Nord Grand does not have aftertouch, so it isn't rubbery at key bottom - it bottoms like an acoustic piano. I only use it for MIDI - I like the action, I have better pianos in the computer. I like the form factor (big flat top). I already had faders for CC stuff.
> 
> That said, this stuff is all so personal. I ordered the Nord and a Yamaha at the same time, kept the Nord. Still haven't sold the Yamaha P-515, but it too is excellent. The Nord is very close to how it feels to play my acoustic RX-7. The Yamaha, however, has better samples than the Nord, not that I really care or would have used them.... Both these pianos are triple sensor pianos and that is very nice for playing piano.


I used to own a JLCooper Fadermaster. They are okay but they are way overpriced. I got an SL Mixface which I really like and just found out they are even cheaper now by $50, that’s what I would recommend getting to anyone. The keyboard is a whole other story, I’m sure the Nord or Yamaha would be great choices.


----------



## greggybud

JohnG said:


> 4. Full spread of midi choices, including 1-127 velocity,



Is that even possible today or have you checked?

It's been close to 10 years since I have checked, so maybe there has been an improvement with newer controllers? IIRC, there are few controllers, if any that respond to all 127 levels. Most keyboard controllers I tested had pretty embarrassing gaps. Of course I didn't really hear the gaps until after I ran the test. Then I became much more conscious of them and having to do a lot more midi editing after recording.

_"Velocity" is how hard/fast you hit a key. It is measured as a number between 0 (lightest touch/no touch) to 127 (hardest touch).

There are 127 different intensities of how hard you can hit a key.

So a gap between 105 and 115 means there are 10 units of velocities that essentially get skipped. In practice this means the keyboard is not sensitive to subtle variations in how hard you hit the keys."_


----------



## Michael Antrum

Since the Nord Grand is around £ 3k, you might also consider the cheaper Kawai stage piano which uses the same keybed. I believe the MP7SE is around £ 1300.00 and features a similar plastic weighted action to the Nord. For the price difference, it might be worth checking that one out too...


----------



## nas

I'm primarily a guitarist but have had formal training in Piano and of course use the keyboard extensively for composing/orchestration. I have found the Kurzweil semi-weighted action keyboards to be the most conformable to play for long sessions and also very versatile for playing WW, brass, strings etc.. parts.

Light and responsive but not mushy or spongy if you're doing piano parts. It has been by far my favorite keybard to play and work with for long periods of time. I had a PC2 semi weighted keyboard. I wish they would just make one without the sounds - just as a controller, then it would be perfect for my needs. (although Kurzweil has never been a slouch in the sound and synthesis department either )


----------



## pfylim

mybadmemory said:


> To it seems that build quality doesn’t exist with midi controllers for some reason. You have to buy high end synths or digital pianos to get proper quality and calibrated actions. I myself purchased a Nord Piano 3 to use for this since it was the best experience I could find in the shop.
> 
> I then discovered it only sends midi velocity 0-120 and not 121-127. So be vary of that if you go the piano route!


A shame Nord skimps on so many details, including onboard memory, for the prices they want it’s unacceptable.


----------



## jaketanner

Buying a stage piano as a controller doesn’t really work and here’s why. The keybed is calibrated for their on board sounds. It’s set in a way that favors them more than external sounds. Sure it will work, and you might get lucky to find one that matches what you have virtually, but editing is usually limited. There are dedicated controllers that seem to be favorites out there...but not cheap unless you get my favorite for price and performance: Maudio Hammer88.


----------



## SupremeFist

jaketanner said:


> Buying a stage piano as a controller doesn’t really work and here’s why. The keybed is calibrated for their on board sounds. It’s set in a way that favors them more than external sounds. Sure it will work, and you might get lucky to find one that matches what you have virtually, but editing is usually limited. There are dedicated controllers that seem to be favorites out there...but not cheap unless you get my favorite for price and performance: Maudio Hammer88.


Why would their onboard sounds necessarily be totally out of whack with the velocity response of VIs? It's just an internal VI vs an external one. (Roland FP10 ftw!)


----------



## jaketanner

SupremeFist said:


> Why would their onboard sounds necessarily be totally out of whack with the velocity response of VIs? It's just an internal VI vs an external one. (Roland FP10 ftw!)


Because the keybed is calibrated for the response of the sample. Ok n board samples are no where near as good as some dedicated VIs. Also they usually do not have extensive tweaking capabilities like dedicated controllers. It’s usually 4-5 velocity curves that are fixed. A good controller will also have differences between black and white keys and some also allow individual note tweaks.


----------



## SupremeFist

jaketanner said:


> Because the keybed is calibrated for the response of the sample.


Is that really how they make those things? Seems backwards to me.


----------



## jaketanner

SupremeFist said:


> Is that really how they make those things? Seems backwards to me.


Absolutely...say a Roland or Yamaha stage piano is going to respond far better to the on-board piano sound, than it will an external VI through MIDI.


----------



## Nathanael Iversen

jaketanner said:


> Absolutely...say a Roland or Yamaha stage piano is going to respond far better to the on-board piano sound, than it will an external VI through MIDI.


This is not my experience. I do think the manufacturers do what they can to try to make that true. But ultimately, there are so much better samples in software that it isn't true in my experience. What I get out of a high-end digital piano keyboard is expression - how many of the 0-127 MIDI values can be played controllably? Lots of cheap keyboards this is from 50-100 or so. The excellent actions from Yamaha and Kawaii do much better. 

The Nord Piano that I have (Kawai action) is excellent. It will play from mid teens to 127s under full control. It has three pedals and can send the right signals to a software piano. And this matters. A top of class library like the Syncron Steinway is orders of magnitude better than the Nord Piano library. The Nord samples are "playable" and it is clear that the programmers have gotten every bit of goodness out of them. But ultimately, they are small, limited samples. There's no pp samples in the instrument, and it sounds to me more like mp to ff for dynamic range. No una corda samples. The built in samples are for cutting through a rock band on stage, if that's what you want. For studio composing, I want a whole lot more.

The Syncron Steinway played via the Nord Piano? With somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 velocity layers per key, full una corda samples, several release triggers, there is LOADS of sample data, and the Nord Piano can trigger it all. It sounds and feels way better than the in-built sounds. It should - the sample set has the data to be played expressively, and the keyboard sends the data stream to access it. What VSL is doing for piano sampling is extraordinary. All the extra velocity layers make the instrument come alive. It isn't that I can play 52 vs 54 accurately. It is that I am getting different samples all the time and the una corda sounds right, because there's multiple velocity layers there too. 

In my opinion, piano action accuracy means buying a keyboard with an action made by an acoustic piano company. I believe that Yamaha and Kawai make the best actions if realism is desired. I also find them to offer far better control than anything Fatar or Roland makes. I purchase without regard for the internal sounds. I will never use them. Even live, I'd play a software piano through Gig Performer. I can tell you that the Yamaha P-515's CFX sample is better than anything in the Nord Piano library for realism, and it is just as controllable as the Nord Piano. But I liked the Nord Piano's key feel and action better, and so, it got the nod, even at close to 2x the price. The Nord piano action does not have aftertouch or acoustic damping, and so it bottoms like an acoustic piano. I vastly prefer this to the mushy feel of aftertouch or lots of "quiet action" damping. 

If the outer edge of piano realism is sought, there's nothing for it except to buy the keyboard and piano sample separately. Buy the keyboard that allows full velocity expression (triple sensor), has three pedals, and feels best. Then pair it with the piano library of choice. It will be vastly superior to any built in sounds. It will be more expensive....but then that's how it goes....


----------



## jaketanner

Nathanael Iversen said:


> This is not my experience. I do think the manufacturers do what they can to try to make that true. But ultimately, there are so much better samples in software that it isn't true in my experience. What I get out of a high-end digital piano keyboard is expression - how many of the 0-127 MIDI values can be played controllably? Lots of cheap keyboards this is from 50-100 or so. The excellent actions from Yamaha and Kawaii do much better.
> 
> The Nord Piano that I have (Kawai action) is excellent. It will play from mid teens to 127s under full control. It has three pedals and can send the right signals to a software piano. And this matters. A top of class library like the Syncron Steinway is orders of magnitude better than the Nord Piano library. The Nord samples are "playable" and it is clear that the programmers have gotten every bit of goodness out of them. But ultimately, they are small, limited samples. There's no pp samples in the instrument, and it sounds to me more like mp to ff for dynamic range. No una corda samples. The built in samples are for cutting through a rock band on stage, if that's what you want. For studio composing, I want a whole lot more.
> 
> The Syncron Steinway played via the Nord Piano? With somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 velocity layers per key, full una corda samples, several release triggers, there is LOADS of sample data, and the Nord Piano can trigger it all. It sounds and feels way better than the in-built sounds. It should - the sample set has the data to be played expressively, and the keyboard sends the data stream to access it. What VSL is doing for piano sampling is extraordinary. All the extra velocity layers make the instrument come alive. It isn't that I can play 52 vs 54 accurately. It is that I am getting different samples all the time and the una corda sounds right, because there's multiple velocity layers there too.
> 
> In my opinion, piano action accuracy means buying a keyboard with an action made by an acoustic piano company. I believe that Yamaha and Kawai make the best actions if realism is desired. I also find them to offer far better control than anything Fatar or Roland makes. I purchase without regard for the internal sounds. I will never use them. Even live, I'd play a software piano through Gig Performer. I can tell you that the Yamaha P-515's CFX sample is better than anything in the Nord Piano library for realism, and it is just as controllable as the Nord Piano. But I liked the Nord Piano's key feel and action better, and so, it got the nod, even at close to 2x the price. The Nord piano action does not have aftertouch or acoustic damping, and so it bottoms like an acoustic piano. I vastly prefer this to the mushy feel of aftertouch or lots of "quiet action" damping.
> 
> If the outer edge of piano realism is sought, there's nothing for it except to buy the keyboard and piano sample separately. Buy the keyboard that allows full velocity expression (triple sensor), has three pedals, and feels best. Then pair it with the piano library of choice. It will be vastly superior to any built in sounds. It will be more expensive....but then that's how it goes....


I think we are saying the same thing. I agree that VI pianos are far superior to internal pianos. But as far as responsiveness, they tend to favor their own sounds rather than externals. Now if we are talking high end, then of course the game changes. Even the MP11 is extraordinary in feel for midi as well. If I had the budget I would get the MP as my main controller. And like you, could care less about the on board sounds. Lol.


----------



## Nathanael Iversen

jaketanner said:


> I think we are saying the same thing. I agree that VI pianos are far superior to internal pianos. But as far as responsiveness, they tend to favor their own sounds rather than externals.


We are close, but I don't think that quality digital pianos have less expressiveness in the MIDI stream than they generate from internal samples plus all the custom prgramming. With the Nord Grand (a decently premium instrument), the internal samples do not reveal what the action and MIDI stream are capable of. 

The stock instrument is definitely held back by the samples. There just isn't data for the responsive action to trigger, and their programming attempts can't cover the missing samples. Putting a little filter on the mp sample to make it p or pp just doesn't sound like what a piano actually sounds like when played softly. The Nord Grand will send MIDI release volume. The internal samples do nothing with this. The Synchron libray does. My experience is that the keyboard is MORE responsive and expressive through MIDI than the internal samples and programming can deliver. 

I had the same experience with the Yamaha P-515. It is more expressive using MIDI and a good sample than anything inside the unit. There's no sound in either of them that I didn't have a better and more responsive experience playing inside my DAW-hosted samples. I believe that we live in an era where it doesn't pay for the manufacturers of sensors to invest in the SSD, RAM and CPU to bring their sensors to full potential. Those who are willing to shop for a sensor device separate from a sound engine can get what none of the manufacturers offer - best sensor and best responsiveness/expression/results.


----------



## Stevie

@JohnG so were you ever able to go over to chillbot in order to test the RD-2000 and the Yamaha?


----------



## greggybud

JohnG said:


> Maybe it's better now? @chimuelo recommended the Physis a number of times, but I haven't seen those around for a while.


It's very frustrating. My most stupid mistake of all time in audio production was selling my Oberheim MC3000. In a nutshell, I thought the MC3000 was just the beginning of great keyboard controllers when in fact, the MC3000 was the last!

10 years ago I got excited, and purchased the CME VX8. It was beautiful, 75lbs, and felt very good. The problem is that some features only existed in the manual, there were huge quality control problems, and firmware updates never happened. (As a side note, one of the aspects I judge a retailer by is how quickly they dump a documented bad product. It took Sweetwater too long, and I'm not convinced they were just trying to sell off left over inventory)

I settled for a Studio Logic VMK 188+. The feel is just average, but most of all, the velocity gaps are too wide. (there is a little application you can install in Kontakt to check them)

So I would love to knkow about the Physis controllers because I continually hear good things about them. Unfortunately there are very few retailers who keep them in stock in the USA. So the only alternative is flying to a big city or maybe going to NAMM. Also, the fact that a major retailer like Sweetwater hasn't picked the Physis line up makes me a bit cautious. If the Physis is as good as some report, maybe the price for features isn't there?


----------



## jononotbono

greggybud said:


> So I would love to know about the Physis controllers


Yeah I would like to try one as well. Heard only good things about them. Which is beyond rare for a keyboard controller 😂


----------



## Stevie

Physis, Lachnit and Dexibell S9 are the ones that get very good ratings.
But all very hard to get hold of.


----------



## muk

These three all use keybeds from Fatar. 

Physis 4K: Fatar TP/40L

Dexivell Vivo S9: Fatar TP/40 Wood

Lachnit: Fatar TP/40 Wood, but adjusted by hand and with a proprietary light sensors. 

Fatar keybeds are ok. But they are by far not the best to be had if you are looking for something that resembles a natural piano feeling.


----------



## Stevie

I’m actually in the same boat as John. I don’t want a hyper realistic piano key simulation. I want to be able to easily perform woodwinds, brass, perc and strings on the same keyboard.
But of course it should also be possible to play piano on the keyboard and not feel like cheap synthesizer keys.


----------



## Zanshin

I've tested a lot of non/semi-weighted options looking for a great 'on the desk' keyboard - most are cheap crap. The best I've found is the Arturia Keylab 61 Mk 2. The same (in-house?) keybed as the Matrixbrute. Arturia marketing says it's keybed is "lusciously playable". Hard agree


----------



## jononotbono

Stevie said:


> Physis, Lachnit and Dexibell S9 are the ones that get very good ratings.
> But all very hard to get hold of.


Well try harder. FFS. I need ears and boots on the ground. I was on the cusp of giving up and relenting to an NI future of "that will have to do" but you've awoken the force. Now be gone. You are our only hope!


----------



## Blackster

Whatever you end up getting, don't buy a CME UF70 ... I hardly use it, and therefore, I'm rather tolerating it standing around in the studio but the most annoying thing about it is that it keeps sending random midi signals on almost every CC !! 

Of course, you can block the data from the keyboard, but still, the screen is occupied showing the data and it feels like disco lighting ... that's actually why I'm keeping it :D ... and it's a good shelf for coffee! *LOL*


----------



## SupremeFist

Stevie said:


> I’m actually in the same boat as John. I don’t want a hyper realistic piano key simulation. I want to be able to easily perform woodwinds, brass, perc and strings on the same keyboard.
> But of course it should also be possible to play piano on the keyboard and not feel like cheap synthesizer keys.


This is why there's no one best for everybody, since for me personally for it to be possible to play piano on the keyboard it has to be at least Roland PHA-4 standard (which is what I use).


----------



## Stevie

I still have an old Yamaha P300 (not CP300). I totally love the keybed but it’s impossible to fit under my desk. It measures 40 cm (!) in height. If there’s anything close to that keybed, I would get it.


----------



## Zanshin

Stevie said:


> I still have an old Yamaha P300 (not CP300). I totally love the keybed but it’s impossible to fit under my desk. It measures 40 cm (!) in height. If there’s anything close to that keybed, I would get it.


That's like a piece of furniture haha.

I didn't understand what you are looking for, I wouldn't have recommended the Keylab 61. I personally had been looking for a controller like a Nord Electro waterfall semi-weighted keybed. I don't think it exists (aside from in the Electro). The Keylab 61 is great though for fast playing, velocity response feels perfect.

I'll shut up, good luck in your quest!


----------



## Baronvonheadless

the komplete 88 and the keylab 88 use similar Fatar keybed as but has anyone played both and noticed a difference? I feel like ppl have said the keylab is spongey and I was curious if the komplete 88 is the same? I want to save up for a fully weighted one some day but I don’t want those huge bulky electric pianos because I have a desk with a slide out keyboard tray and they will not fit and have too many other functions and controls and clutter I just don’t care about. 


I currently use a m audio key station 61 mk2 and it’s been pretty ok. I like the keyboard better than my akai MPK for SURE. That was a weird one. Kind of stiffer and spongey and it’s own weird springy way for a semi weighted. 

My problem with mine is some of the keys are getting loose and flimsy and it’s als
Ways been hard to really dig in on piano parts without fingers slipping off. I don’t have that problem on a real piano.


----------



## mybadmemory

Things made for stage use is generally an order of magnitude better than things made for home or studio use. Check out the well trusted stage classics like Nord. Between their Piano, Stage, and Electro ranges they offer a lot of variety in keybeds and actions. While they do mostly use Fatar actions, they’re not used as is, but velocity calibrated to be extremely consistent.


----------



## Audioflamingo

Baronvonheadless said:


> the komplete 88 and the keylab 88 use similar Fatar keybed as but has anyone played both and noticed a difference? I feel like ppl have said the keylab is spongey and I was curious if the komplete 88 is the same? I want to save up for a fully weighted one some day but I don’t want those huge bulky electric pianos because I have a desk with a slide out keyboard tray and they will not fit and have too many other functions and controls and clutter I just don’t care about.
> 
> 
> I currently use a m audio key station 61 mk2 and it’s been pretty ok. I like the keyboard better than my akai MPK for SURE. That was a weird one. Kind of stiffer and spongey and it’s own weird springy way for a semi weighted.
> 
> My problem with mine is some of the keys are getting loose and flimsy and it’s als
> Ways been hard to really dig in on piano parts without fingers slipping off. I don’t have that problem on a real piano.


I have the KK S88 2, and I would say spongey is the right word. Together with my disappointment about Kontrol itself I'm thinking about selling it and trying to somehow fit my Roland DS-88 under my desk. The updated Ivory-G feels much better. 

The only reason I haven't done it yet is because I keep thinking "I must be wrong, right?" I bought the DS as an affordable stage workhorse, yet the action feels much more alive than the KK S88.

Don't get the DS88 though - it's big. Try out some old Yamaha P-series for sure. I love the action of the P90.


----------



## Fidelity

Audioflamingo said:


> I have the KK S88 2, and I would say spongey is the right word. Together with my disappointment about Kontrol itself I'm thinking about selling it and trying to somehow fit my Roland DS-88 under my desk. The updated Ivory-G feels much better.
> 
> The only reason I haven't done it yet is because I keep thinking "I must be wrong, right?" I bought the DS as an affordable stage workhorse, yet the action feels much more alive than the KK S88.
> 
> Don't get the DS88 though - it's big. Try out some old Yamaha P-series for sure. I love the action of the P90.


Thanks for this. I currently have a S49ii as a second tier and was thinking of selling that and the main (currently a Triniy ProX 88...terrible velocity response on any curve) for an 88. After reading that, nope.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Audioflamingo said:


> I have the KK S88 2, and I would say spongey is the right word. Together with my disappointment about Kontrol itself I'm thinking about selling it and trying to somehow fit my Roland DS-88 under my desk. The updated Ivory-G feels much better.
> 
> The only reason I haven't done it yet is because I keep thinking "I must be wrong, right?" I bought the DS as an affordable stage workhorse, yet the action feels much more alive than the KK S88.
> 
> Don't get the DS88 though - it's big. Try out some old Yamaha P-series for sure. I love the action of the P90.


I can’t seem to find any p90s but I see lots of p45s. Similar? Also no mod/pitch bend wheels :/


----------



## Marcus Millfield

mybadmemory said:


> Things made for stage use is generally an order of magnitude better than things made for home or studio use. Check out the well trusted stage classics like Nord. Between their Piano, Stage, and Electro ranges they offer a lot of variety in keybeds and actions. While they do mostly use Fatar actions, they’re not used as is, but velocity calibrated to be extremely consistent.


Yep, that's why after extensive try-outs I landed on the Kawai MP11SE behemoth which is a godsend compared to all the Fatar boards. Expressive playing is so much easier now. Only downside is it's size and weight. It is build like a tank though.


----------



## Stevie

Audioflamingo said:


> I have the KK S88 2, and I would say spongey is the right word. Together with my disappointment about Kontrol itself I'm thinking about selling it and trying to somehow fit my Roland DS-88 under my desk. The updated Ivory-G feels much better.
> 
> The only reason I haven't done it yet is because I keep thinking "I must be wrong, right?" I bought the DS as an affordable stage workhorse, yet the action feels much more alive than the KK S88.
> 
> Don't get the DS88 though - it's big. Try out some old Yamaha P-series for sure. I love the action of the P90.


How would you rate the following tasks on the DS-88:

- playing flute and string lines / runs
- playing fast stac repetitions like double or triple tongue

is this possible with ease?


----------



## Roger Newton

If you're a player who likes to occasionally play fast and doesn't mind how hard you hit the keyboard when playing from time to time then Fatar keybeds are a big pile of dog excrement sitting in the middle of your living room.
In my studio currently, there is a Kurzweil PC2 X that I am about to put on Ebay for $20 so someone can come and take it away right after I've finished a project. It's the second one I've had and has gone exactly the same way as the first identical one. The other keyboard is a Kawai ES920 which is a good keybed BUT it's fairly slow actioned compared to the Kurzweil. If Kurzweil keybeds weren't lame pieces of shit, it would be a great keyboard.
I know a bit about electronic keyboards. The first one I ever had was in 1966 and was a Farfisa Compact Combo. And then so on from there. Fatar keybeds are the worst I have ever come across in over 50 years.


----------



## Audioflamingo

Baronvonheadless said:


> I can’t seem to find any p90s but I see lots of p45s. Similar? Also no mod/pitch bend wheels :/


I can imagine... I got the P90 17 years ago. They're tuningold. Digital pianos often have better key feel, I think. But yes, they usually lack pitch wheels, aftertouch, software integration, all that jazz. Not sure about the P45. That's way newer and also their low end model, so I don't know if they have much in common.
Best thing is to try it out yourself, of course. It's highly subjective. I grew up playing a quite light Sauter as a kid, so I don't like heavier boards.
I mentioned the P90 and DS88 as references to the S88, but surely they're no holy grales. I have yet to fall in love with a keyboard that fits my workflow.



Stevie said:


> How would you rate the following tasks on the DS-88:
> 
> - playing flute and string lines / runs
> - playing fast stac repetitions like double or triple tongue
> 
> is this possible with ease?


Asking the real questions 
First of all, it's a deep and high unit, so I'm not sure if it'll fit under your desk. I haven't even checked if it fits in mine. The S88 still sits there until I find the time to do a switch.
I have to speak from memory a bit regarding orchestral. 
The feel is pretty light, I'd say a bit clonky and not the fastest of all. It's basic, but I like it. Especially for piano.
Runs: no problem. Fast repetitions: hard to say... I'm not sure how the sensors reacted with fast reps. I'll give it a try as soons as I set it up. Good reason to do so. Remind me in a week if I haven't reported back.


----------



## Stevie

Awesome, thanks!

Well, yes, I have some measures to make it fit under my desk. I could lower the keyboard drawer.
The DS-88 is 14,4 cm in height, the S88 is 12,7 cm.


----------



## Fidelity

Roger Newton said:


> If you're a player who likes to occasionally play fast and doesn't mind how hard you hit the keyboard when playing from time to time then Fatar keybeds are a big pile of dog excrement sitting in the middle of your living room.
> In my studio currently, there is a Kurzweil PC2 X that I am about to put on Ebay for $20 so someone can come and take it away right after I've finished a project. It's the second one I've had and has gone exactly the same way as the first identical one. The other keyboard is a Kawai ES920 which is a good keybed BUT it's fairly slow actioned compared to the Kurzweil. If Kurzweil keybeds weren't lame pieces of shit, it would be a great keyboard.
> I know a bit about electronic keyboards. The first one I ever had was in 1966 and was a Farfisa Compact Combo. And then so on from there. Fatar keybeds are the worst I have ever come across in over 50 years.


Have you not heard the word of our lord the Midiboard, heretic?

No but seriously that might be the best midi controller ever made, aesthetics and portability aside.


----------



## fakemaxwell

I have a Kawai ES920 under my desk and a Keylab MkII on the desk. The Kawai is like 5 inches thick, so it's really not too bad for how good the keybed is. 

Keylab also feels nice but it's synth keys, and I play too much regular piano to have that as my only option. It sometimes does modwheel duties too (have a footpedal and leap motion as well). But if you're looking for great key action I'd check out the ES920 or the Yamaha P515. The Fatar keybeds just aren't gonna cut it.

I would kill for the ES920 keys in a slim-as-possible container though. If Kawai made that it would sell like hotcakes.


----------



## Roger Newton

fakemaxwell said:


> I have a Kawai ES920 under my desk and a Keylab MkII on the desk. The Kawai is like 5 inches thick, so it's really not too bad for how good the keybed is.


It is good but it's too slow for any really serious playing.


----------



## Roger Newton

Fidelity said:


> Have you not heard the word of our lord the Midiboard, heretic?
> 
> No but seriously that might be the best midi controller ever made, aesthetics and portability aside.


The K PC2 X? It would be if the keybeds in them were reliable. And they're not. They're crap. Anyway, project over. Kurzweil PC2 X yours for $20. Collection only.


----------



## fakemaxwell

Roger Newton said:


> It is good but it's too slow for any really serious playing.


Well...if it's fast enough to play Liszt, that seems like it should be good, right?


----------



## Roger Newton

That's very nice but there are degrees of speed that I am comfortable with. For example, when I play this, the ES keyboard cannot do this speed. At least when I play it. This is the closest I can get on a normal keyboard - bum notes included.


----------



## Audioflamingo

Audioflamingo said:


> I have the KK S88 2, and I would say spongey is the right word. Together with my disappointment about Kontrol itself I'm thinking about selling it and trying to somehow fit my Roland DS-88 under my desk. The updated Ivory-G feels much better.
> 
> The only reason I haven't done it yet is because I keep thinking "I must be wrong, right?" I bought the DS as an affordable stage workhorse, yet the action feels much more alive than the KK S88.
> 
> Don't get the DS88 though - it's big. Try out some old Yamaha P-series for sure. I love the action of the P90.


Just remembered why I lend the Yamaha P90 out to my sister and went looking for another keyboard: velocity never went over 120. Other reasons were the lack of pitch bend and the thought "keyboards have probably evolved a lot in the last 20 years." This thread got me browsing gear pages again, but I'll be sure to take the DS out of the flightcase before doing something outrageous.


----------



## Fidelity

Roger Newton said:


> The K PC2 X? It would be if the keybeds in them were reliable. And they're not. They're crap. Anyway, project over. Kurzweil PC2 X yours for $20. Collection only.


Nah, this monstrosity:







Unlike most keyboards, it's actually _heavier _than it looks. I'm sure the military considered fitting a cannon to it at one point in time. But the action is a dream, and poly AT baby! Really good poly AT at that.


----------



## quietmind

I have a number of MIDI keyboards. The best I have is the current Kawai MP11SE (which Kawai says fixed the sticky key issue by the way). I find it quite satisfactory... and to me it plays much better than any of the high-end Fatar keybeds I have. I also considered the VP1, but the MP11SE had a better action. Not the ultimate Kawai action, but very good. (And just for reference, my physical piano I've had for the last 35 years is a Hamburg Steinway D).


----------



## Gminorcoles

we have a kawaii mp11se and its the favorite keyboard of anyone in the house, really good


----------



## Gminorcoles

Fidelity said:


> Nah, this monstrosity:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unlike most keyboards, it's actually _heavier _than it looks. I'm sure the military considered fitting a cannon to it at one point in time. But the action is a dream, and poly AT baby! Really good poly AT at that.


I have one that needs new felt. piano repair guy says 700usd to do that


----------



## Fidelity

Gminorcoles said:


> I have one that needs new felt. piano repair guy says 700usd to do that


Yikes. Sounds more like a ripoff artist ;x


----------



## Audioflamingo

Stevie said:


> How would you rate the following tasks on the DS-88:
> 
> - playing flute and string lines / runs
> - playing fast stac repetitions like double or triple tongue
> 
> is this possible with ease?


You inspired me to take old clunky out of its case and do some testing side by side with the S88-2.
Subjectivity time!
Gosh, it feels weird. Piano feels fantastic, but nothing like a piano. There's not a whole lot of travel but the clunks just make it feel satisfying.
Runs are fast and feel great. You have quite a bit of control. I do find it hard to stay constant across all notes though. The top and bottom note get accented a bit, although I try to play controlled.
As soon as you start to do anything on one or two notes, like repetitions or trills, it falls apart a bit. The keybed doesn't need a lot, but you need to power through that first momentum.
It's hard to describe. I guess it really leans towards an incredibly luxurious synth keyboard. But with wood grained plastic (great for sweaty fingers!) and a board that likes to be played 'against'. Because you DO get that power of backward momentum you get with most pianos.

It feels light but hammery. I have to get used to playing controlled, though. I think it's going to replace the KK S88 for a while, just because I find it more rewarding to play - which isn't to say it's a better keybed per se.

And I guess I'll start shopping around for Kawai and Kurzweil, seeing the posts above.

I hope you can take something away from this... I strongly advise you to test one before you buy it, because, as I said, it's a strange, strange keybed.


----------



## Audioflamingo

Gminorcoles said:


> I have one that needs new felt. piano repair guy says 700usd to do that


That is absolutely ridiculous. Is there a felt shortage or something?


----------



## Stevie

Audioflamingo said:


> You inspired me to take old clunky out of its case and do some testing side by side with the S88-2.
> Subjectivity time!
> Gosh, it feels weird. Piano feels fantastic, but nothing like a piano. There's not a whole lot of travel but the clunks just make it feel satisfying.
> Runs are fast and feel great. You have quite a bit of control. I do find it hard to stay constant across all notes though. The top and bottom note get accented a bit, although I try to play controlled.
> As soon as you start to do anything on one or two notes, like repetitions or trills, it falls apart a bit. The keybed doesn't need a lot, but you need to power through that first momentum.
> It's hard to describe. I guess it really leans towards an incredibly luxurious synth keyboard. But with wood grained plastic (great for sweaty fingers!) and a board that likes to be played 'against'. Because you DO get that power of backward momentum you get with most pianos.
> 
> It feels light but hammery. I have to get used to playing controlled, though. I think it's going to replace the KK S88 for a while, just because I find it more rewarding to play - which isn't to say it's a better keybed per se.
> 
> And I guess I'll start shopping around for Kawai and Kurzweil, seeing the posts above.
> 
> I hope you can take something away from this... I strongly advise you to test one before you buy it, because, as I said, it's a strange, strange keybed.


Thanks a bunch for this! That underlines my suspicion that Roland keyboards feel a bit strange, yet good. I have seen so many good comments about the PC3x, but it’s hard to get hold of a model in good condition. Therefore, I’m eyeballing the Dexibell S7 Pro, which also features the TP40L (as in the PC3x series). The S9 would also be an option, but that one features a heavier version of the TP40L, obviously not ideal for synths / orchestra.

Edit: have to correct myself, the S7 Pro uses the TP40 GH. Ordered it anyway and will report back.


----------



## Audioflamingo

Stevie said:


> Thanks a bunch for this! That underlines my suspicion that Roland keyboards feel a bit strange, yet good. I have seen so many good comments about the PC3x, but it’s hard to get hold of a model in good condition. Therefore, I’m eyeballing the Dexibell S7 Pro, which also features the TP40L (as in the PC3x series). The S9 would also be an option, but that one features a heavier version of the TP40L, obviously not ideal for synths / orchestra.
> 
> Edit: have to correct myself, the S7 Pro uses the TP40 GH. Ordered it anyway and will report back.


Please do! Curious what you think of it.
I decided to send the S88-2 back or sell it.


----------



## TomislavEP

I'm notoriously demanding when it comes to MIDI keyboards with the piano being my main instrument, however I'm also practical. I can't afford luxury so I'm always trying to find a solid compromise.

Personally, I always had a good experience with keyboards based on Fatar keybed. Been using products from Kurzweil for live work for many years. In the studio, I still have Studiologic SL 990 Pro and it works great for me for piano-based writing, performance, and practice. Its feel is actually quite heavier than on most grands, uprights, and other keyboards I had the opportunity to use over the years, but it suits my style very well and has also proved to be quite reliable.

My secondary MIDI controller at the moment is Nektar Panorama T6. Although I'm rather happy with its feature set, I'm not very keen on its keybed. Not that I would prefer a true synth-like action (have several hardware synths and workstations in my studio), but the feeling on Nektar is too stiff in my book, although it also has quite a seamless aftertouch. I preferred the keys on my M-AUDIO Axiom but had to let it go due to the faulty mod wheel after abt. ten years of use.


----------



## CGR

I've had a Yamaha CP4 Stage since new (maybe 7 years) and it has been rock-solid, except for one key randomly triggering maximum velocity sporadically a few years ago, which was covered for repair by Yamaha even when outside the Warranty period. Yamaha really stand by their products.






Whilst not the most realistic action for a demanding pianist (Kawai's VPC-1 or MP11SE seem the closest from what I've read) it has a triple-sensor fully weighted action which I've found strikes an excellent balance between being sensitive & dynamic enough for solo acoustic sampled piano duties (it does output MIDI velocities to 127) and a flexible controller for Rhodes/Wurly, guitars/basses and orchestral string instruments (it has a good quality and feel pitch bend & mod-wheel). Also 1/4" and Balanced XLR outputs.

Although lighter than previous model stage pianos, the CP4 Stage is still an effort to lug to gigs and recording sessions, so I've recently bought a Studio Logic SL73 Controller – one of the very few "cut down" weighted-action boards out there. I haven't gigged with it yet, but initial testing across a variety of laptop based piano/e-piano sounds was very promising.


----------



## Stevie

Okay, the Dexibell S7 Pro arrived and I did some tests.

At first, I really liked the action. It's pretty sturdy. If I was to compare it with a computer keyboard, then I would say: it feels like a Cherry keyboard with a click. It's nice to play and you have a feedback when playing the keys, like a short resistance. The keys also swing back very quickly. Compared to the TP100 in the S88 I would say: it feels way more accurate and not as mushy, spongy and wobbly. It's basically night and day.

Now to the downside: fast repetitions (double and triple tongue) are very tiresome and fail most of the time. I did a side by side comparison with my old Yamaha P-300 and this almost 30 year old digital piano still destroys the Fatar TP40GH. There, the repetitions work very accurately (with a few exceptions, when the hand gets tired). Whereas with the S7, although it is a triple sensor keybed, some notes just don't get triggered. But the "finger to key impact noise" clearly reveals that I am playing double / triple tongue.

As a conclusion I can definitely say, that Fatar keybeds are not my piece of cake.

Now who's next, MODX8 or Roland A88 II?


----------



## stigc56

I used to play the Yamaha CP300 when I was musical director on HAIR in Denmark, I have been kicking my self since then, for not buying it. Today I have a Yamaha S90es, works fine, not too light in the keys - I am a big fan of the real thing you know!


----------



## Marcus Millfield

Stevie said:


> Now who's next, MODX8 or Roland A88 II?



Don't know about the Roland, but the Yamaha has a GHS keybexd, which is their el cheapo graded hammer action. Probably not much better than your old P300, if not worse.


----------



## Stevie

Well, I'd actually be totally happy with the action of my P-300. The problem just is, that it doesn't fit under my desk. So it doesn't necessarily be better, I'm already happy if it is equally good.
But I just noticed that pretty much all Yamaha keyboards are above 14 cm in height.
Therefore, I ordered the A88 MK2.


----------



## Simon Ravn

Stevie said:


> Well, I'd actually be totally happy with the action of my P-300. The problem just is, that it doesn't fit under my desk. So it doesn't necessarily be better, I'm already happy if it is equally good.
> But I just noticed that pretty much all Yamaha keyboards are above 14 cm in height.
> Therefore, I ordered the A88 MK2.


Let us know what you think about the A88. I am also on an endless hunt for a nice keyboard.


----------



## Stevie

Yeah, I've already noticed we are in the same boat :D Will definitely do! 
It's really completely incomprehensible to me that hardware manufacturers don't get their shit together...


----------



## Simon Ravn

Stevie said:


> Yeah, I've already noticed we are in the same boat :D Will definitely do!
> It's really completely incomprehensible to me that hardware manufacturers don't get their shit together...


 I am thinking of ordering an A88 and an m-audio Hammer 88 Pro and hopefully find out that either of those is what I need. Preferably I want a keyboard without ANY faders/controllers. Just the keys. I want/need other controllers for faders/knobs/whatever. Then we are almost down to Doepfer as a serious contender.


----------



## Stevie

Simon Ravn said:


> I am thinking of ordering an A88 and an m-audio Hammer 88 Pro and hopefully find out that either of those is what I need. Preferably I want a keyboard without ANY faders/controllers. Just the keys. I want/need other controllers for faders/knobs/whatever. Then we are almost down to Doepfer as a serious contender.


Awesome, then we can share our experience. 

Same here, I don't need any controls on my keyboard. I have MIDI controllers for that.
The only thing I would need is a pitch bend wheel / stick, since those are not available externally.

The Dexibell that I ordered has the same keybed as the LMK4+, I can't really recommend it.
Here's a multi tongue phrase I'm always trying as reference:








IMG_2020.MOV


Nextcloud - a safe home for all your data




nextcloud.stephanroemer.net





My hand got tired pretty quickly.


----------



## Roger Newton

Stevie said:


> My hand got tired pretty quickly.


I'm not surprised. Your wrists are miles lower than your hand.


----------



## Stevie

Good catch, they usually aren’t, though.


----------



## Audioflamingo

Stevie said:


> Well, I'd actually be totally happy with the action of my P-300. The problem just is, that it doesn't fit under my desk. So it doesn't necessarily be better, I'm already happy if it is equally good.
> But I just noticed that pretty much all Yamaha keyboards are above 14 cm in height.
> Therefore, I ordered the A88 MK2.


Looking forward to your findings! I wonder how that PHA-4 suits you.


Simon Ravn said:


> I am thinking of ordering an A88 and an m-audio Hammer 88 Pro and hopefully find out that either of those is what I need. Preferably I want a keyboard without ANY faders/controllers. Just the keys. I want/need other controllers for faders/knobs/whatever. Then we are almost down to Doepfer as a serious contender.


Both of you!

Edit (addition):
I seem to remember some people prefer the A88 mark 1 with the Ivory G over the Mk2 with PHA-4. Did anyone have the chance to try both?


----------



## Stevie

Yeah, I read that, too. People tend to go for a Roland DS-88 in that case, because it features an improved version of the Ivory G. But I didn't have the chance to try that on either.
Actually, I have never played / owned a Roland weighted keybed, yet.


----------



## ChrisHarrison

I’m using the kawaii vpc-1 and it’s fantastic. I love to play it. I also have a native instrument 88 and love that, but the kawaii is better by a lot.


----------



## Stevie

Still waiting for my A-88 MKII, should actually have arrived today, but it's been delayed. 
If everything goes well, it will be here tomorrow.


----------



## Stevie

Okay, the A-88 arrived, today. First impression when taking it out of the packaging: it's a very solid and sturdy keyboard. When playing the keys, the case doesn't make a single noise, as opposed to the S88.

As for the keys: they feel indeed a bit on the heavier side, not as heavy as the FATAR TP40, though.
Especially the "click" is by far not as heavy as the one from the TP40 (Dexibell S7 Pro).
Personally, I think it has a nice touch to it and controlling the velocity is really a breeze.

I can play stac patterns with a lot variance in dynamics and it just feels / sounds natural. I think, I didn't have that feeling for a long time, when playing a keyboard. To me, it makes the impression that this will lead to less velocity editing after having recorded a pattern. Every velocity you want to hit can accurately be triggered. Again, something the S88 is not able to do.

Also, especially with piano-like sounds (Piano, Rhodes, Celesta, Vibraphone, etc...), it felt like playing a new library. I literally had the feeling that the sounds have increased in quality. This all could be imagination, of course, since it's purely a subjective impression. But everything percussive I played felt way more alive:

- The sounds in Keyscape were just wonderful (Yamaha Grand, the different Rhodes, Upright...).
- The Olafur Arnalds Felt piano was also a revelation, it never felt that good (pun intended).
- Art Vista Virtual Grand Piano 3 also felt like a new instrument (I chose the Roland Fantom 8 velocity curve)

Playing strings, woodwinds and brass was also no problem:
- fast CSW / BBC flute stacs in chords (JW style)
- legato string lines, no problem

What I also noticed is, that the A-88 feels more precise, which results in less key slipping (also something that happened regularly to me with the S88).

Now to the downside: the fast repetitions I showed earlier in a video are not easily possible. However, I'm willing to work on that and adapt my technique, because of the good overall impression of the keyboard.
Also, there is one thing I'm not yet sure about: if the keys will tire my hands on the long run. Of course, I played a lot today, because it was really inspiring to discover "new sounds" with the keyboard. But my hands also felt a bit exhausted after that. I can't tell yet if this will go away after a while or if that's something the hands will never get used to.


@Simon Ravn Have you got your A-88, yet and if so, what are your impressions?


----------



## modularg2

Fidelity said:


> Nah, this monstrosity:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unlike most keyboards, it's actually _heavier _than it looks. I'm sure the military considered fitting a cannon to it at one point in time. But the action is a dream, and poly AT baby! Really good poly AT at that.


I have it. I bought Midiboard 35 years ago, made hundreds of tours and still is in my home studio.. I played hundreds keyboards and no one has the beautiful key action that this has. Plus Poly aftertouch. The only cons is the weight, is a tank and so heavy that needs two persons to carry on


----------



## Audioflamingo

Stevie said:


> Okay, the A-88 arrived, today. First impression when taking it out of the packaging: it's a very solid and sturdy keyboard. When playing the keys, the case doesn't make a single noise, as opposed to the S88.
> 
> As for the keys: they feel indeed a bit on the heavier side, not as heavy as the FATAR TP40, though.
> Especially the "click" is by far not as heavy as the one from the TP40 (Dexibell S7 Pro).
> Personally, I think it has a nice touch to it and controlling the velocity is really a breeze.
> 
> I can play stac patterns with a lot variance in dynamics and it just feels / sounds natural. I think, I didn't have that feeling for a long time, when playing a keyboard. To me, it makes the impression that this will lead to less velocity editing after having recorded a pattern. Every velocity you want to hit can accurately be triggered. Again, something the S88 is not able to do.
> 
> Also, especially with piano-like sounds (Piano, Rhodes, Celesta, Vibraphone, etc...), it felt like playing a new library. I literally had the feeling that the sounds have increased in quality. This all could be imagination, of course, since it's purely a subjective impression. But everything percussive I played felt way more alive:
> 
> - The sounds in Keyscape were just wonderful (Yamaha Grand, the different Rhodes, Upright...).
> - The Olafur Arnalds Felt piano was also a revelation, it never felt that good (pun intended).
> - Art Vista Virtual Grand Piano 3 also felt like a new instrument (I chose the Roland Fantom 8 velocity curve)
> 
> Playing strings, woodwinds and brass was also no problem:
> - fast CSW / BBC flute stacs in chords (JW style)
> - legato string lines, no problem
> 
> What I also noticed is, that the A-88 feels more precise, which results in less key slipping (also something that happened regularly to me with the S88).
> 
> Now to the downside: the fast repetitions I showed earlier in a video are not easily possible. However, I'm willing to work on that and adapt my technique, because of the good overall impression of the keyboard.
> Also, there is one thing I'm not yet sure about: if the keys will tire my hands on the long run. Of course, I played a lot today, because it was really inspiring to discover "new sounds" with the keyboard. But my hands also felt a bit exhausted after that. I can't tell yet if this will go away after a while or if that's something the hands will never get used to.
> 
> 
> @Simon Ravn Have you got your A-88, yet and if so, what are your impressions?


Thanks for the great review, Stevie! I hope this will be the one for you, after some getting used to it.


----------



## Roger Newton

Stevie said:


> Okay, the A-88 arrived, today. First impression when taking it out of the packaging: it's a very solid and sturdy keyboard. When playing the keys, the case doesn't make a single noise, as opposed to the S88.


Hey Stevie,

You've had this keyboard for a little while now, what's the action like and is it any good generally for MIDI use?

My current keyboard is now gone awol and is activating total 127 velocities up and down the range. I will need some seriously expensive psychiatric help if I don't replace this friggin thing asap.


----------



## Stevie

Yes, I'm still very pleased with the keyboard. To me, it feels way more comfortable to play than any Fatar keybed I ever tried. As I mentioned before, I have the feeling that the quality of the instruments increased with this keyboard. All the VIs I use feel like a complete new instrument.


----------



## Roger Newton

Stevie said:


> Yes, I'm still very pleased with the keyboard. To me, it feels way more comfortable to play than any Fatar keybed I ever tried. As I mentioned before, I have the feeling that the quality of the instruments increased with this keyboard. All the VIs I use feel like a complete new instrument.


That's great Stevie and thanks for coming back. I'm in the middle of a gig at the moment and I called up an old pal who played keyboards back in the day with Caravan. I finished up buying an MP7-SE at a sale price of £1249.00. The Roland would have been the one but the price differential was too good to pass. Time pressed is the problem.


----------



## Simon Ravn

Stevie said:


> Okay, the A-88 arrived, today. First impression when taking it out of the packaging: it's a very solid and sturdy keyboard. When playing the keys, the case doesn't make a single noise, as opposed to the S88.
> 
> As for the keys: they feel indeed a bit on the heavier side, not as heavy as the FATAR TP40, though.
> Especially the "click" is by far not as heavy as the one from the TP40 (Dexibell S7 Pro).
> Personally, I think it has a nice touch to it and controlling the velocity is really a breeze.
> 
> I can play stac patterns with a lot variance in dynamics and it just feels / sounds natural. I think, I didn't have that feeling for a long time, when playing a keyboard. To me, it makes the impression that this will lead to less velocity editing after having recorded a pattern. Every velocity you want to hit can accurately be triggered. Again, something the S88 is not able to do.
> 
> Also, especially with piano-like sounds (Piano, Rhodes, Celesta, Vibraphone, etc...), it felt like playing a new library. I literally had the feeling that the sounds have increased in quality. This all could be imagination, of course, since it's purely a subjective impression. But everything percussive I played felt way more alive:
> 
> - The sounds in Keyscape were just wonderful (Yamaha Grand, the different Rhodes, Upright...).
> - The Olafur Arnalds Felt piano was also a revelation, it never felt that good (pun intended).
> - Art Vista Virtual Grand Piano 3 also felt like a new instrument (I chose the Roland Fantom 8 velocity curve)
> 
> Playing strings, woodwinds and brass was also no problem:
> - fast CSW / BBC flute stacs in chords (JW style)
> - legato string lines, no problem
> 
> What I also noticed is, that the A-88 feels more precise, which results in less key slipping (also something that happened regularly to me with the S88).
> 
> Now to the downside: the fast repetitions I showed earlier in a video are not easily possible. However, I'm willing to work on that and adapt my technique, because of the good overall impression of the keyboard.
> Also, there is one thing I'm not yet sure about: if the keys will tire my hands on the long run. Of course, I played a lot today, because it was really inspiring to discover "new sounds" with the keyboard. But my hands also felt a bit exhausted after that. I can't tell yet if this will go away after a while or if that's something the hands will never get used to.
> 
> 
> @Simon Ravn Have you got your A-88, yet and if so, what are your impressions?


Hi Stevie. Thanks for your update! No, haven't gotten around to that yet. Will keep you posted


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## MrHardi

Really enjoying this forum. I realize there are quite some knowledgeable folks on here in regards to keyboards and controllers. I’m posed with a dilemma in the process of setting up new studio. For A piano player still learning,

Doepfer(as a master keyboard) or
Kurzweil PC4(as Controller and synth)
Paired with Hydrasynth(As a synth).

I wish I didn’t have a personal desire for the Doepfer(really want a dedicated and strong controller which doesn’t move and can be used a long time). I just think it’d be great for me as well as the keybed.

But the emergence of the Kurzweil PC4 has made this a tough decision. With the hydra I intend to dive more into synthesis and the PC4 has really appealing synthesis capabilities. And in a alternate universe, I wish I’d have all 3 so I have a Solid dedicated midi controller.

Would Really appreciate thoughts on this so I can make a better decision soon.


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## SupremeFist

MrHardi said:


> Really enjoying this forum. I realize there are quite some knowledgeable folks on here in regards to keyboards and controllers. I’m posed with a dilemma in the process of setting up new studio. For A piano player still learning,
> 
> Doepfer(as a master keyboard) or
> Kurzweil PC4(as Controller and synth)
> Paired with Hydrasynth(As a synth).
> 
> I wish I didn’t have a personal desire for the Doepfer(really want a dedicated and strong controller which doesn’t move and can be used a long time). I just think it’d be great for me as well as the keybed.
> 
> But the emergence of the Kurzweil PC4 has made this a tough decision. With the hydra I intend to dive more into synthesis and the PC4 has really appealing synthesis capabilities. And in a alternate universe, I wish I’d have all 3 so I have a Solid dedicated midi controller.
> 
> Would Really appreciate thoughts on this so I can make a better decision soon.


If you're serious about a good piano feel (and you probably should be if you are serious about learning piano better) then you should prioritise that and get a good weighted 88-key keyboard such as the Roland FP-10 etc, and then either play synths/sample libraries with it too (which is not impossible) or get a second lightweight controller for that stuff, as many (including me) do.


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## tmhuud

So glad your liking the A-88. ROLAND has a few models that are such a nice bridge (action wise) between concert piano and synth feel. I have a couple of acoustic pianos in the studio and while I LOVe playing them I couldn't possibly write score/ record film stuff on them. My hands would fall off! I'm STILL using the ROLAND FantomX8 and aside from the silly joy stick for pitch bends nd Mods I love it.


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## MrHardi

SupremeFist said:


> If you're serious about a good piano feel (and you probably should be if you are serious about learning piano better) then you should prioritise that and get a good weighted 88-key keyboard such as the Roland FP-10 etc, and then either play synths/sample libraries with it too (which is not impossible) or get a second lightweight controller for that stuff, as many (including me) do.


Thanks for the prompt response. I’m a producer and composer who also enjoys soft synths. Now getting into hardware synthesis as well. 
My intention was to get somewhat of an all-rounder which would allow me to work with the computer software/DAWs as well as play piano.

I definitely don’t intend to stop here with gear as I see myself buying more dedicated keys for piano down the line. But it would be ideal to use it in tandem with studio work, have a robust gear that lasts, good enough keybed for good playability. I’m willing to build up my playing skills on keys that may not be necessarily too heavy.


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## Fleer

Or you can opt for the RD-88 that has the same action as the FP series (except for the most expensive one) as well as 3000 Zen-Core synth sounds.


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## jononotbono

I’m now using an SL88 Studio keyboard. Love it. Best weighted 88 note keyboard I’ve tried yet. Especially for the the price point.


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## NuNativs

Keyboards are like bikes. A professional cyclist could take a Huffy and outride anyone in his/her path. You can nitpik over the gory details, but in the end you can adapt to pretty much any board. Past that, it's all excuses since most VI composers can't play worth a crap...


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## MrHardi

I figure a nicer Keybed for piano playing with the lmk while having a controller that doesn’t move from the studio. Having a hydrasynth gives me a chance to dig into some synthesis hence I wonder if I need to have the PC4. Others say the pc4 is just a better controller albeit with a diff keybed. I imagine the hydra is already a handful hence having both seems like too much for starters.


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## Fleer

I have to say I love the action on my PC4, both for (electric) piano and synth duties.


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## ModalRealist

I really like the action on my Roland FP-10. I had a desk made by a local carpenter so it sits on a sturdy slide-out shelf (I can thump it as much as I like and the monitor barely wiggles). It's not _exactly _like a real piano, of course, but it's _very _close - especially for the insanely cheap price. 

Anyone wanting the "hammer-like" resistance/feel of a piano should absolutely get the FP-10 (or a digital piano) rather than a MIDI keyboard. I previously bought the Arturia Keylab 88 MkII, and had to return it because the keys were just so "squishy". To me, it felt like a synth keyboard that had had some sort of weird polystyrene stuffed under the keys or something. I also found it very fatiguing to play: like you had to push harder the further down the key went.

So of course, it all depends on what kind of feel you'd like, but if you come at this from noodling on pianos and want a key feel and response closest to that, digital piano is definitely the way to go.


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## MrHardi

The tough thing is the fact I have no way to try these keyboards since I’m on the African continent at the moment. Makes this decision abit more tricky for me. Will have to order from Germany


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## ZeroZero

Cat among Pigeons, rather annoyingly I can't take my hands of my Roland 700NX. This keyboard is built like a tank, too heavy for me to move easily and is a performing keyboard rather than a MIDI controller, but it's action is superb, much better than the 2000, which I bought, had it in my studio, then returned. As for Nords - they always feel like toys to me (IMO). The PHA III Ivory Feel Keyboard with Escapement has been worn to the bone here, I have dips where my fingers have been. It's Supernatural Concert Grand is really expressive and IMO still the best sound even on the RD2000 (where its hidden in the lists).
For a keyboard of its age (12 years old now) it still fetches high prices (around £1000 UK) it's never leaving my studio and although I do like my Arturia MkII, it's still the Roland I play. If you want to know how a real keyboard feels - try the RD700NX


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## ChrisHarrison

If you’re looking for an “all a rounder” the nis88 is great. Mostly because the velocity response on the lower side is very accurate. Ppp-mp is really nice on it.


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## cug

ChrisHarrison said:


> If you’re looking for an “all a rounder” the nis88 is great. Mostly because the velocity response on the lower side is very accurate. Ppp-mp is really nice on it.


Is that a Nord piano? I like the idea of a piano that really plays "piano".


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## Studio E

John, without wandering through this entire lengthly post, I just wanted to say that I feel your pain. I have been looking around lately, mainly just trying to figure out what my next piano/keyboard would be, not so much for anything but to feel connected to as real an instrument as possible. My setup for the last decade, has been a Yamaha S90xs as my main controller. The sliders are a joke and I don't use them, but the keybed is as good as anything I've ever felt. When I pull up a Pianoteq Bluethner, or The Grandeur, I feel about as connected as I ever have to a digital instrument. TO me, that means that I can play as light as I want, and have the noted nearly disappear. I see them used for about 1600-1900, which is about what I paid brand new. If you can get your hands on one, you might give it a try. 

As far as my search for something outside the studio to play, I want to checkout the Kawai MP11, but have to drive 6 hours to try one. It's supposed to be an unparalleled keyboard action, but I've never played one. I'd love to have an instrument, not connected to a DAW, to just connect with, and maybe play in a small group with. When I really search, I am disappointed like you are, to see that extra money mainly brings extra features that I don't really care about. I just want the best, solid connection with at least, a handful of amazing sounds. I'm wishing you the best on your journey though, for sure.


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## Roger Newton

NuNativs said:


> Keyboards are like bikes. A professional cyclist could take a Huffy and outride anyone in his/her path. You can nitpik over the gory details, but in the end you can adapt to pretty much any board. Past that, it's all excuses since most VI composers can't play worth a crap...


Over a lot of years I've stopped recommending keyboards for computer geeks. The kind of keyboard I play just isn't going to be suitable for 99.99% of the people on music forums. 
Most people should get as cheap a keyboard as they can and stop worrying about keybeds and key action and all that kind of thing. Anything that costs next to nothing with black and white keys that more or less go up and down is best for most people.


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## iMovieShout

Hmmm interesting !! So here goes with my 2 cents 

So about 20 months ago I decided that my 2 month new Native Instruments MK2 88keys keyboard wasn't actualy that good!! Horror of horrors!!! Especially as so many well known composers such as Tom Holkenburg, Guy Mitchelmore, etc etc, had all switched to it. 

Having previously tried out the fantastic Doepfer LMK4+ (as used by Hans Zimmer, various Bleeding Fingers folk, Spitfire Audio and many others), I would have gotten the Doepfer LMK4+, but I then came across the M-Audio Oxygen 88, which for me was the best ever action I'd come across, together with the programmable 8 sliders and 8 knobs and USB connectivity - was a no brainer.

I've had my Oxygen88 now for over 18 months, and haven't looked back. But I managed to seek out mine from a studio that had gone bust and was selling this as brand new via eBay. I don't believe M-Audio sell or manufacture this any more, but its a fantastic bit of kit, and well worth considering.

The only grumble is that the USB socket stopped working 6 months ago, but to be honest I never used. I've always used the MIDI sockets which I've programmed via Cubase.

Good luck


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## Roger Newton

M-Audio keyboards are great because they're quite light. The lighter a midi keyboard is, the easier it is to throw into the local skip.


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## ravez

I have been reading about keybeds for a while before i went to the store to try a few.
To my surprise, keyboards that use the same keybed have completely different action, so i suggest to experience as many weighted keyboards as you can before deciding what you like.
I guess every manufacturer implements the same keybeds in different ways.


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## jaketanner

ravez said:


> I have been reading about keybeds for a while before i went to the store to try a few.
> To my surprise, keyboards that use the same keybed have completely different action, so i suggest to experience as many weighted keyboards as you can before deciding what you like.
> I guess every manufacturer implements the same keybeds in different ways.


They do. It’s mostly about the enclosure that’s used and dampening that makes or breaks the action.


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