# Don't like the Hammer 88 Pro and Keylab 88. Doomed?



## AbhiGupta (Apr 14, 2021)

Hi Guys,

After reading lots of positive reviews for the M-Audio Hammer 88 Pro, I decided to go check it out in the store and thought I'd be coming back home with it. But turns out the keys felt really wobbly (I've never seen black keys wobble so much left to right). The action was okay and light but didn't feel nice and secure and the white keys were so glossy and shiny and sticky, just didn't feel right.

Then I tried the Arturia Keylab 88 and I have to say, the build felt MUCH better. None of the wobbling feeling and the action seemed stable and stiffer, but then a bit too much. There was a certain kind of rubberiness/sponginess to it and I don't think I'd enjoy playing it on a daily basis.

After that I tried some cheaper entry level Roland and Casio digital pianos, and to my surprise, their keybed felt much better. Something I can live with, and at literally half the price!?

I intend to use the keyboard with sample libraries and will be working with other instruments too (not just a piano), so I understand that keyboards designed specifically for midi offer better integration with DAWs and the faders, wheels, pads can be a life saver.

So my question is, is there a midi controller with an amazing keybed out there? If not, what kind of a digital piano + midi CC should I look at for good playability and hassle free integration with libraries and DAWs?

Thanks in advance!


P.S. Don't think I can afford the Kawai VPC and since the keybed on SL88 is the same as Keylab 88 (Fatar TP100/LR), I've crossed it out from the list. I use Studio One 5 on Windows 10.


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## davinwv (Apr 14, 2021)

The SL88 Studio uses a TP100/LR action like the KeyLab 88, but the SL88 Grand's TP40WOOD action is different and actually lighter than the Studio. Check out this video at 1:58 for the downweight comparison:


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## fakemaxwell (Apr 14, 2021)

In a similar boat, I originally ended up with a Kawai ES110, which is probably the best piano in its price range. All of the MIDI controller style keybeds sacrificed the keys too much to add some knobs and whatnot. Upgraded recently to the Kawai ES920 and it's great. 

It would be minorly nice to have a mod wheel attached, but 1. I have a small 37 key midi controller that has mod/pitch wheels that I can use at the same time and 2. Using the Leap Motion controller + Midipaw has replaced most of my search for knobs and faders. Korg Nanokontrol is a popular choice, there's a bunch of things available on the market. 

If your goal is key action feel above everything else, stick to actual piano makers for your controller. The Studiologic might be a nice keyboard but I haven't played it, the only thing I've heard is that it's generally heavier than what's available from Kawai, Roland, Yamaha, etc.


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## Rob (Apr 14, 2021)

it has no knobs or faders, but the Roland FP10 is affordable and has a very good keybed. Escapement is a big plus for a piano-like feel... and it's action is smooth enough, to play strings or brass etc. Doesn't hurt that the internal piano isn't bad too. But then you'd need an additional controller for cc riding.


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## Living Fossil (Apr 14, 2021)

Keys are quite a subjective area. I'd always go with a digital piano keyboard instead of a Masterkeyboard. In my experience the best options come from Roland, Yamaha and Kawai. Personally, i prefer the Yamahas, but i guess at this point it's only subjective - most colleagues, who's opinion i respect a lot, prefer the Rolands. AFAIR, the Kawai is much softer, but still quite sensitive.


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## SupremeFist (Apr 14, 2021)

Rob said:


> it has no knobs or faders, but the Roland FP10 is affordable and has a very good keybed. Escapement is a big plus for a piano-like feel... and it's action is smooth enough, to play strings or brass etc. Doesn't hurt that the internal piano isn't bad too. But then you'd need an additional controller for cc riding.


FP10 plus Nanokontrol. This is the way.


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## muk (Apr 15, 2021)

Your experience matches my own @AbhiGupta. To me, even the most affordable entry-level digital pianos felt much better than midi controllers. If you are looking for a keybed that feels similar to a real piano action, a digital piano is the way to go in my opinion. I use a digital piano and a TEC Breath Controller. I also have a Korg nanoKontrol, but rarely use it. Using the breath controller is more natural for me than using a modwheel, plus I can use both hands when playing. If you prefer a modwheel you have to look for a workaround. These are a few options:

http://www.doepfer.de/we.htm and http://www.doepfer.de/a1742.htm (dyi assembly)






VMeter: USB MIDI Touch Strip Controller & Display


Control music software with touch, pressure. Lights also mappable.




www.vmeter.net





https://www.lab4music.it/enjoy.php?lang=EN (x/y stick instead of two wheels)


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## TintoL (Apr 15, 2021)

Well, I guess we are in the same hunt. Thanks for sharing your experience with the hammer pro. I found that it's integration to cubase is quite solid. I have the oxigen pro 49 which has the same controls and features. It also has the proper layout of controllers. The layout is something I simply can't understand why developers make such weird layouts. I am sad to hear that the keybed is weak.

My main hunt is for a good keybed action full of controls including faders and modwheels with the proper or closer layout. So far, all the money of the planet can not get the perfect controller as each one has something missing. So, I find I will have to make a compromise.

I have bought, owned a lot of controllers. Two VPC1 (one got burned to it's bones ) sold the second one, then a kawai es8, I have two, I also had the novation mark 3 37, also KK 49 mk2. Plus I have tested most of the keyboards except a few rare ones that do have it all, but, I have never tried.

So far, the almost full on stage piano controllers that I am considering are:

1- Dexibell S9. Custom keybed tp-400 hybrid wood and plastic. Motorized faders and wheels. Proper layout. And it has a low size profile in all dimensions. Is the perfect one. But it's a rare device, not too many reviews, I don't even know how that keybed feels, and it's mega expensive.

2- Roland Rd2000. I tested it and did a solid comparison between the vpc1 and the Es8. RD2000 feels good for jazz slow, chords and medium speed passages. All controllers at your fingertips. But, I found that comparing the keybed to the ES8, it struggles to keep up with fast arpeggios and lines. But, that could be only me with a weaker technique. For me, it struggled specially with left hand long arpeggios in two octaves. This is something I felt in the VPC1 even more, at the point that my hand got tired quickly. But, the deal breaker is that the midi implementation is medieval. You can not freely mapp the controllers. You need Bome midi translator inbetween to use all controls.

3- Kurzweil CP4 and K2700. All controllers, all mapping of controllers available. I haven't tried these beds. Fatar TP40L and RHM apparently medelli keybed. CP4 It's a very tall beast. But, very complete.
K2700 has a lower profile.

4- Yamaha YC88. I haven't tried it. But, If the keybed is closer to the Yamaha p515. This keybed is simply amazing. The P515 is the best keybed I have tried that fits my style the best. It's heavy, but at the same time has a quick response.I am very interested in this keyboard, but, I am not sure how that joystick thing will feel.

In terms of getting a simple stage piano and add a second controller, in my experience, that doesn't work well. Your hand ends up stretching too much constantly just to get to the modwheel.

I would avoid any keyboard with a Fatar tp100. They are very sticky, slow, and weird. 

If anyone can give any information about the dexibell s9 and yamaha keybed and controllers, I would appreciate it.

I hope this helps.


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## proggermusic (Apr 15, 2021)

OP's already gotten some really good advice, and the original findings don't much surprise me. Affordable digital pianos by all the usual suspects (Yamaha, Kawai, Roland, etc) are all pretty solid these days, and I've been using an old Yamaha P85 as my main controller for almost a decade at this point. $200 on Craigslist in Manhattan. Love it to this day. Like others have mentioned, it's easy to stack a synth-style controller on top for pitch and mod wheels, faders, etc. I have an M-Audio Axiom 61 for that.


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## Living Fossil (Apr 15, 2021)

TintoL said:


> In terms of getting a simple stage piano and add a second controller, in my experience, that doesn't work well. Your hand ends up stretching too much constantly just to get to the modwheel.


I have it that way for over twenty years. No need to stretch if you put your controllers in a comfortable position.


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## TintoL (Apr 15, 2021)

Living Fossil said:


> I have it that way for over twenty years. No need to stretch if you put your controllers in a comfortable position.


Could also be my desk. Not sure. Or that I have opted to for a too big of a second controller. 
Thanks for sharing your experience.


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## AbhiGupta (Apr 16, 2021)

Thanks for the advice guys, really appriciate.

I actually went to the store yesterday and got the Roland FP10 because it seemed satisfactory. Have to say the onboard sound could have been much better if the speakers were up front and not at the bottom, facing the ground... I mean why Roland!?

Although the deal breaker for me personally - Roland has falsely advertised FP10 as having half damper capability. In reality, it registers only three midi values. In studio one, which shows the sustain level between 0 to 100, they are - 0, 70 and 100. That's it, nothing in between. And there's a lot of times I like the damper to be less than 50. So this is just not going to cut it.

Another reason why I sound so convinced of this is because of other posts on the internet -





Roland DP10 pedal - is it actually 'continuous'?


I recently bought Roland FP10, just as a controller for Pianoteq and connected Roland DP10 so-called continuous pedal. It has switch allowing to choose '0-1' mode or 'continuous'. When I connect it to FP10 and then use it with Pianoteq, even in continuous mode it sends 3 velocities: 0, ~64...




forum.pianoworld.com





I thought I'd still ask, is there a setting that I need to tweak in order to get the continuous pedal working (I use a DP10 in continuous mode) or should I just return it and get a different keyboard?


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## TintoL (Apr 16, 2021)

AbhiGupta said:


> Thanks for the advice guys, really appriciate.
> 
> I actually went to the store yesterday and got the Roland FP10 because it seemed satisfactory. Have to say the onboard sound could have been much better if the speakers were up front and not at the bottom, facing the ground... I mean why Roland!?
> 
> ...


If I may ask, which other keyboards you were able to try and what you think of the actions please?

Regarding the pedal, I have noticed that with my es8. At least in the Kawais, The lack of half damper is related to the pedal model. The one that comes with it is just a switch on and off. Hope that someone can help more.


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## Rob (Apr 16, 2021)

I think the OP is right... the DP10 (which I use with my RD64) has the complete 0-127 range. It's the way the FP10 reads the voltage info coming from the pedal that reduces it to three values, 0, 127, and an intermediate one. That said, I think that having even a single half pedal value is better than having none, and moreover I wouldn't trade the keyboard feel for the full ped range. I've been using this piano for two years, the first one took it to gigs and it still has perfectly even keys and behaves as new...


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## AbhiGupta (Apr 16, 2021)

TintoL said:


> If I may ask, which other keyboards you were able to try and what you think of the actions please?
> 
> Regarding the pedal, I have noticed that with my es8. At least in the Kawais, The lack of half damper is related to the pedal model. The one that comes with it is just a switch on and off. Hope that someone can help more.


Hi Tinto,

The local stores don't keep fancy keyboards and the Kawai store nearby says it'll take them a month to get the VPC, on pre order (I'll have to pay upfront without even trying it). The same thing with SL88 Grand (with TP40Wood). So given all that, I haven't been able to try many keyboards.

The ones I did are Yamaha P series, Casio PX series, Roland FP series, Hammer 88 Pro, and Keylab 88. Out of all these, I found the FP to be better when it comes to the keybed. The Yamaha felt decent and had better sound, although did not feel as snappy and responsive. The Casio's action felt a little too light, but it had a better sound.

I also tried digital uprights by Yamaha and Roland, I don't remember the models, but they seemed to be equipped with a better keybed than all of the above. Makes sense, given the price difference.

Thanks for reply!


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## AbhiGupta (Apr 16, 2021)

Rob said:


> I think the OP is right... the DP10 (which I use with my RD64) has the complete 0-127 range. It's the way the FP10 reads the voltage info coming from the pedal that reduces it to three values, 0, 127, and an intermediate one. That said, I think that having even a single half pedal value is better than having none, and moreover I wouldn't trade the keyboard feel for the full ped range. I've been using this piano for two years, the first one took it to gigs and it still has perfectly even keys and behaves as new...


Hi Rob, 

I was thinking since I'm already making a new investment, I could perhaps go with the FP30 if it supports continuous pedal. Else I could look into other keyboards in that range.

Thanks for your reply!


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## TintoL (Apr 16, 2021)

AbhiGupta said:


> Hi Tinto,
> 
> The local stores don't keep fancy keyboards and the Kawai store nearby says it'll take them a month to get the VPC, on pre order (I'll have to pay upfront without even trying it). The same thing with SL88 Grand (with TP40Wood). So given all that, I haven't been able to try many keyboards.
> 
> ...


This master keyboard hunt is kind of exhausting. And with covid, at least now in Ontario, 
Canada all is closed. So, no testing. Thanks for the info.


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## Jiffster (Apr 17, 2021)

you could look at the NI Kontrol S88 - I've found it very nice, albeit a bit too deep for my liking in terms of size.


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## quietmind (May 26, 2021)

I have compared my SL88 Grand to the current NI S88 as well as other high end keyboards (Kurtzweil) and enjoy the SL88 a great deal more. The Kawaii is still an unknown to me, and I am curious about it but am more than satisfied currently.


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## Jorf88 (May 29, 2021)

quietmind said:


> I have compared my SL88 Grand to the current NI S88 as well as other high end keyboards (Kurtzweil) and enjoy the SL88 a great deal more. The Kawaii is still an unknown to me, and I am curious about it but am more than satisfied currently.


For some clarity:
The NI S88 uses the Fatar TP100/LR. This is the exact same keybed as is in the Studiologic SL88 *studio* and the Arturia Keylab 88.

I have not personally had a change to try them next to each other, but you can surely find many sources stating that they are extremely similar in feel. The TP/100LR is a very heavy keybed, and often described as "slow" or "sticky". The SL88 *grand *is TP/40wood, which is apparently a very nice action. I haven't had the pleasure of playing it.

I personally have a Roland FP90 that I got myself a few years ago before I even got into this whole virtual instrument thing. That action is fantastic, and I've heard that the FP10 is similar enough to be well worth the slight downgrade for the price difference. (The FP90 was MSRP 2K USD).

If you didn't like the hammer 88 pro, I don't know what else to recommend... Some folks have had great experience with the newer Korg D1(670 USD MSRP). It is a piano, though, so no pitch/mod (Do you have another midi controller for that?)

It might also be wise to include some sort of price-range for what you're looking to spend. I know that's hard, many of us are willing to spend more if we can get what we _really _want, but that seems to be ever-elusive these days.


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## Paulogic (May 30, 2021)

The search for is also still in progress for me.
I think I narrowed it down to 2 possibilities : SL88 Grand and PX-S3000.
In the online reviews of the PX, Pianoman Chuck and others, claim the action
is very nice and does not differ much from other nice piano's.
The PX is a 20 € cheaper and fits my desk very nicely. The grand needs to go
on top of my desk but I'm willing to live with that.
The build in sounds of the PX are very appealing for playing instantly, when the
time is short but a break is needed...

Some advice of Pianoman : If you want a keyboard for only playing piano,
get a piano. If you want a keyboard for playing piano and other sounds (vst's, synths,...)
buy a controller or keyboard with Fatar. Fatar for only piano, seems not te be ideal.
His opinion of course, but I read it in some other reviews to.


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## Soundbed (May 30, 2021)

AbhiGupta said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> After reading lots of positive reviews for the M-Audio Hammer 88 Pro, I decided to go check it out in the store and thought I'd be coming back home with it. But turns out the keys felt really wobbly (I've never seen black keys wobble so much left to right). The action was okay and light but didn't feel nice and secure and the white keys were so glossy and shiny and sticky, just didn't feel right.
> 
> ...


What’s your budget? Most pianists I know tend to agree that the Yamaha digital pianos approaching the $1000 price point are workable. Below that opinions seem to differ wildly about what is acceptable.


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## gohrev (May 30, 2021)

Paulogic said:


> The search for is also still in progress for me.
> I think I narrowed it down to 2 possibilities : SL88 Grand and PX-S3000.


I can recommend the SL88 Studio (tried the Grand, wasn't worth the price difference IMHO). I adore my keyboard, especially its sturdiness.
Only caveat: Comes with weird little axis pins for mod and pitch bend, rather than the usual wheels.


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## Quasar (May 30, 2021)

Living Fossil said:


> Keys are quite a subjective area.* I'd always go with a digital piano keyboard instead of a Masterkeyboard. In my experience the best options come from Roland, Yamaha and Kawai*. Personally, i prefer the Yamahas, but i guess at this point it's only subjective - most colleagues, who's opinion i respect a lot, prefer the Rolands. AFAIR, the Kawai is much softer, but still quite sensitive.


This. 100%. Yamaha P and CP keyboards are what I've had, but I would look at the Kawai MP series too, especially if you can find one in decent shape used.


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## bill5 (Jun 2, 2021)

AbhiGupta said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> After reading lots of positive reviews for the M-Audio Hammer 88 Pro, I decided to go check it out in the store and thought I'd be coming back home with it. But turns out the keys felt really wobbly


I would just add caution a little about floor models which can get abused and assuming that's how they all feel. I found this out when I compared the same exact model in two diff places the same day and they felt noticeably different FYI.



muk said:


> If you are looking for a keybed that feels similar to a real piano action, a digital piano is the way to go in my opinion.


That's really not an opinion, it's a fact. At least if comparing digital pianos to MIDI controllers....some workstations have excellent keybeds as well and of course offer a lot more functionality than digital pianos, but cost more.


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## digitallysane (Jun 8, 2021)

Anyone has experience with the Roland A-88 MK II?
https://www.roland.com/global/products/a-88mk2/
It has the Roland PHA-4 keybed.


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## Paulogic (Jun 8, 2021)

Finally decided because I had the possibility to "test" the models I was interested in :
SL88 Grand and PX-S3000.
To my big suprise the PX-S3000 felt better than the Grand.The Grand is lighter then the
Studio, but the Casio has a better and faster respons and reacts better when playing
closer to the top of the keys. For only being a 2 sensor keybed, amazing...
PX-S1000 and 3000 share the same bed but I chose the 3000 anyway mostly because
it has a mod-wheel + 2 knobs. The few 100s extra sounds are not really necessary but
nice for playing/practicing without having to start my complete itb setup.
(with Komplete... )

Some extra info : the Grand does feel much more comfortable than the Studio.
It is indeed softer, lighter and has a quicker respons, in my opinion.

I'm far from a professional but have been playing organs, keyb, synths and piano since
I was 7 which results in a fingers with a certain wish for nice keys... LOL.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 10, 2021)

Anybody tried these compact Casio's like the Casio CDP-S100? The appeal to me is it has low height (< 4 inches) and short depth (< 10") which means my desk height won't need to raise too much in order for me to fit this under. I have a Keystation 88 right now but I'm noticing that the keys are pretty sh*t for playing the piano (and as a pianist that's depressing when I compose). Not looking for something to match my real grand of course - need to be able to bang out some percussion with it as well after all.


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## veranad (Jun 10, 2021)

Months ago I tried some of the keyboards mentioned here (FP10, FP30, ES110...).,

Of them, my favourite without a doubt was Korg´s D1.

So I bought it and have been using it since then.

The keybed feels great and construction quality is in my opinion above the others in its price range.

I hope this helps.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 12, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Anybody tried these compact Casio's like the Casio CDP-S100? The appeal to me is it has low height (< 4 inches) and short depth (< 10") which means my desk height won't need to raise too much in order for me to fit this under. I have a Keystation 88 right now but I'm noticing that the keys are pretty sh*t for playing the piano (and as a pianist that's depressing when I compose). Not looking for something to match my real grand of course - need to be able to bang out some percussion with it as well after all.


Bought a CDP-S100 today. Early impressions are quite favorable. Barely had to raise my desk to fit it under, which is a big plus. The keys feels quite good to me (way better than the Keystation of course). I used to have a Yamaha digital piano and those keys might've been slightly better (though I also played that for years, so there's a bias), but I can certainly play what I need to on this one - and certainly will be great for composing.


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## tebling (Jun 12, 2021)

Is it still the case that there are no high quality SEMI-weighted 88 key options out there? I'm a piano player, but I've acclimated to the effortless action of my 61 key synth for entering fast passages.

I'm close to grabbing a Keystation 88 MK3 as the "best of the worst" in this category according to the searching I've done here (Charlie Clouser is a big advocate).


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## Paulogic (Jun 13, 2021)

Maybe the Alesis Recital piano? Seems to have semi-weighted keys.





Alesis Recital


Alesis Recital - 88-Key Digital Piano with Full-Sized Keys




www.alesis.com




It seems the price is around the same of the Keystation 88 MK3.


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## AbhiGupta (Jul 17, 2021)

Hi Guys

As I've mentioned before, I bought the Roland FP10 and was happy with its action, but the lack of continuous pedal support was a deal breaker for me. So I got it replaced with the FP30X and have been using it for a month now.

Have to say I'm very pleased with all the upgrades it has over FP10 (there are plenty).




> Months ago I tried some of the keyboards mentioned here (FP10, FP30, ES110...).,
> 
> Of them, my favourite without a doubt was Korg´s D1.
> 
> ...


Wish I'd seen your post before buying. Seems like it has a better key bed minus the crappy on board speakers.. ideal for me.


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## Sean (Jul 19, 2021)

digitallysane said:


> Anyone has experience with the Roland A-88 MK II?
> https://www.roland.com/global/products/a-88mk2/
> It has the Roland PHA-4 keybed.


Haven't used this but use an FP30 with the PHA-4 keybed, and it's my favorite keybed of everything I've tried. Might consider buying this now since I am on the hunt for something that would be better for MIDI controlling.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Aug 13, 2021)

my 2 coppers:

I had an SL88 Studio for a few years - never bonded with it.

I JUST bought a Hammer 88 Pro - I love the action, but it has some issues that are a concern.

I am in contact with M-Audio support and my dealer about a replacement - I'll give it one more try, as I do not look forward to shopping for another 88 key controller.

Issues:

Vegas Mode comes on at random times - this is a demo mode where all the lights cascade across the control panel. Currently, support has no idea how to turn this off. Unacceptable for live.

The 88 Pro occasionally loses connection with my DAW (Studio One, Reaper) - I have to restart everything to reconnect.

The sustain pedal (M-Audio) switches polarity, I have to flip the pedal polarity switch.

Hanging notes: depends on the VI, doesn't happen often

It's a shame, really - I love playing the 88 Pro.


update:

2nd unit is on its way - we shall see.


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## Paulogic (Aug 13, 2021)

As mentioned in another thread : Finally got the Casio XP-S1000 iso S3000.
I waited more then 2 months for the S3000 but it did not get delivered and
would have taken a few more months. So I decided to go for the S1000,
lacking a lot of sounds and the pitchwheel, but that is not a dealbreaker.
Major points for me is height and the nice keyboard which is the same on both.
For the price-difference I ordered a Mixface and maybe later a small synthaction
keyboard with 2 wheels. Thinking about to sell my Machine Mikro 3 because most
small keyboard also have pads which I don't use much anyway.
I will install the S1000 this weekend and see...


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## HammyHavoc (Jun 13, 2022)

Paulogic said:


> As mentioned in another thread : Finally got the Casio XP-S1000 iso S3000.
> I waited more then 2 months for the S3000 but it did not get delivered and
> would have taken a few more months. So I decided to go for the S1000,
> lacking a lot of sounds and the pitchwheel, but that is not a dealbreaker.
> ...


What did you end up doing in the end, mate?

Currently have a KKMK2 S61, Maschine MK3, and Jam, none of which I'm particularly enamoured with as controllers outside of their respective software. Tried a KKMK2 S88, didn't care for the action whatsoever, thought it was very slow, and not keen on the lights, which to this day are impossible to disable, to my knowledge. Also not keen on NI's extremely slow development for Komplete Kontrol and Maschine. Most of the 'smart' functionality on the KK feels very gimmicky.

Would ideally like faders built in, but I know I'm realistically probably going to end up getting them as separate unit, which isn't the end of the world admittedly. Aftertouch a must really.


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## shropshirelad (Jun 13, 2022)

digitallysane said:


> Anyone has experience with the Roland A-88 MK II?
> https://www.roland.com/global/products/a-88mk2/
> It has the Roland PHA-4 keybed.


Had mine for a couple of years now and very happy with it. The only thing I'd change would be the Roland Joystick for the more traditional wheels, but I prefer it to the mini joysticks on the Studiologic 'boards, which I've previously owned.


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## Jrides (Jun 13, 2022)

A few months ago I tried a bunch of the Casio pianos mentioned above. The action was too light and they were too noisy. They just felt cheap. But that’s just my personal opinion. I ended up with the Roland FP 10 & KK51mk2. This combination suits me.


however… It would be fun to have one of those Casio pianos which have the option to runoff batteries.


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## JCarlsen (Jun 13, 2022)

I had the same problem and ended up with a korg nanokontrol2 for cc work and the casio psx-1000 and I'm very happy with that combo. The psx is a very small 88 key digital piano so the built in speakers are not the best but hey, you can't have everything.


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