# The Composer-Orchestrator Relationship



## BenBotkin (Sep 18, 2014)

I'm sure this topic has come up multiple times, but what are some of the best resources (books, articles, youtube videos, earlier threads--anything) describing the most common (or ideal, not the same things, I realize) ways for composers and orchestrators to work together. What the composers delivers, how much communication there is between the two, how the workload is split up, etc. I realize there is some flux in these things from relationship to relationship and project to project, but I'm wondering who out there would have some helpful thoughts for a composer (me) who to date has only worked as a one-man-music-department but is hoping/expecting to get some future projects working with live orchestra and other music professionals before too long.

Thoughts?


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## Blake Ewing (Sep 18, 2014)

BenBotkin @ Thu Sep 18 said:


> What the composers delivers, how much communication there is between the two, how the workload is split up, etc.
> 
> Thoughts?



Hi Ben,

Every time I've orchestrated for composers (for film scoring), the composer usually delivers a midi file with piano sketch (usually on a single track, but more complex parts are sometimes overdubbed on other tracks), tempo and meter changes, sometimes markers or hit points and usually an audio file of the piano part along with video for that cue (which is sometimes just the cue, sometimes a reel, and sometimes the full film).

There is usually coordination on Google docs spreadsheet as to the cues' start and end times, any recurring thematic material, composer and/or producer notes, who is responsible for the cues (if there are multiple people helping) and the current status of the cues.

As to communication, it varies depending on the composer really. Sometimes there will be initial phone calls to describe the overall sound, instrumentation, etc. Sometimes there are Skype chats on a per cue basis to go over any fixes/edits that might be needed. Sometimes it's all done via email.

In my opinion, the composer's ability to clearly communicate what is expected/needed at the outset and to clarify needs as the project moves along is hugely important. Most problems I've ever run into can be traced back to this.


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## BenBotkin (Sep 20, 2014)

> the composer usually delivers a midi file with piano sketch (usually on a single track, but more complex parts are sometimes overdubbed on other tracks), tempo and meter changes, sometimes markers or hit points and usually an audio file of the piano part along with video for that cue (which is sometimes just the cue, sometimes a reel, and sometimes the full film).



Heh, composers don't have to do all that much, huh?  

Thanks for the response, Blake! BTW, I listened to some stuff of your on soundcloud earlier and it sounds great!

Another question: Does the composer typically choose the orchestrator he wants to work with, or is the orchestrator, orchestra, and the whole music team usually already picked and the composer merely slotting into that team? Or is it a hybrid scenario, where the orchestra and some music crew are determined by the filmmakers/studio but the composer picks his personal favorite orchestrator? How common it it for the composer to be given the entire music budget and handle hiring the crew and booking the orchestra himself?

And yes, I do realize that I'm asking for what's typical and normal in an industry where there is almost never a "typical" or "normal" scenario.


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## Daryl (Sep 21, 2014)

Ben, every single one of your scenarios is possible. It really does depend on many different facets. The good news is that if you are wanting an orchestrator, he or she will be able to fit into whatever version you prefer.

D


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## Rctec (Sep 21, 2014)

I've never come across Ben's scenario. I think it's a really bad idea for a composer to sent a scene or a whole movie to someone else's computer. It's just too unsafe, and the composer is responsible for the safety of the footage. If it gets pirated, the composer is on the hook and there will be hell to pay. I usually watch the movie with the orchestrators and my team together, because it's the only way to get them and me onto the same page.

I don't really like anyone else orchestrating from a piano sketch, unless I know them very well and they have seen the film and have a real grasp of the story-telling. Too much of a control freak, so I program a big suite with a lot of the material that then becomes the orchestration blue-print. Movies can't really be done with generic orchestration, and figuring out the orchestral palette is a huge part of the film-composer's job. 
On the other hand, Bruce Fowler, Lorne Balfe, Steve Mazzaro, Junkie Xl, Andrew K. ...the list goes on...are all people I have worked with for a long time, and very often we develop ideas together, experiment together and with the director. But regardless of how great or big your team is - make sure it sounds like YOU! (I get a lot of shit for working with large teams and crediting them. ...And then I get shit that my music all sounds the same... well, it can't be both ways. If it sounds like me, it probably is me. And orchestration is an easy way to loose the identity - or establish it -  ).

John Williams is very, very precise in his sketches, but the brilliant Conrad Pope still has a huge amount of work to do. My orchestrators work very hard to translate my very precise demos into something that is taken emotionally to a huge stage further by real musicians.

It is always the composer's prerogative to pick their team: music editor, orchestrator, musicians, orchestra, studio, recording engineer. Plus, it's important to have a very clear idea that you can convey to the music mixer on the dub stage.

None of that has anything to do with the size of the project or the budget. You are the composer, you have to have your people to be able to do the best work for the film. There are no gray areas. You, for instance, work WITH the music supervisor, not for them (or they for you).

-H-


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## jamwerks (Sep 21, 2014)

Rctec @ Sun Sep 21 said:


> -H-


Nice read!


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## tokatila (Sep 21, 2014)

In my opinion orchestration is composing, I would have hard time letting someone else to do that for me. Every instrument has their own voice and then someone else would be choosing the appropriate moods/voices for me. I understand using one with impossible deadlines etc, but if time allows, never. I reserve a possibility to change my opinion when I learn more about this craft. 

But now, somehow it feels analogous to me like drawing a painting with black&white pencil and then send it to the colorist...


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## Rctec (Sep 21, 2014)

Well, Tokatila, when you have to do 2 hours + of orchestral music in 6 weeks, with the cut changing 'till the day of your orchestra session, you might think of your orchestrators as your best friend ever!


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## Sebastianmu (Sep 21, 2014)

Rctec @ Sun Sep 21 said:


> John Williams is very, very precise in his sketches, but the brilliant Conrad Pope still has a huge amount of work to do.



Has anyone ever seen John Williams' particells, except for the people involved (or their friends maybe)? Are any of them accessible to the public? It would be really great to know just HOW he puts down the things he imagines for the orchestrator to be able to carry them out. I find it very difficult to imagine how much or how little of certain things he writes into them..


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## MikeH (Sep 21, 2014)

Sebastianmu @ Sun Sep 21 said:


> Has anyone ever seen John Williams' particells, except for the people involved (or their friends maybe)? Are any of them accessible to the public? It would be really great to know just HOW he puts down the things he imagines for the orchestrator to be able to carry them out. I find it very difficult to imagine how much or how little of certain things he writes into them..




Yes, and no they're not readily available to the public. He usually sketches on 8 staves, but expands when necessary. They're essentially short scores. All of the information is there in condensed form. All of it. They're so complete they could go straight to the copyist if need be. The same with Jerry Goldsmith. Listen to the recent Conrad Pope episode of SCOREcast to get some great insight into his role in orchestrating Williams' sketches. 

http://www.scorecastonline.com/2014/06/ ... nrad-pope/

Here's some photos from JoAnn Kane's Music Service twitter. In the background of the first one you can see an example of the sketch from The Book Thief, and in the next photo a sketch from The Fury. 
 
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1084884_10151631976070326_412502236_o.jpg (https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 2236_o.jpg)

http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1.0-0/c0.40.960.640/s720x720/1947680_10152106509840326_1617675709_n.jpg (http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak ... 5709_n.jpg)


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## Windle (Sep 22, 2014)

The Composer-Orchestrator relationship is a subject with a single definitive answer.

For the Composer it is whatever you need it to be.

But let me elaborate so this post isn't just pithy!

Having worked as an orchestrator on a large variety of film and TV projects, I can tell you it is never exactly the same. Purely from a notation point of view it goes from the range of straightforward MIDI realisation to fleshing out loosely played piano parts but that is only one part of it.

Some composers need you as a sounding board or even as a validator, others simply give you the music with barely a comment.

Some composers need you to liaise with fixers, engineers, copyists, music supervisors and help organise the actual mechanics of getting to scoring as they need to focus on the writing while others seem to thrive on the whole organisational process.

Some composers write steadily and feed you the work to do in daily chunks, others leave it all to the last minute and then hurl the lot at you frighteningly close to scoring.

Some composers need to examine the scores in minute detail before going to copyists and others simply assume it will be fine.

So it's all of the above in any combination plus shades of grey in-between.

And in many ways, that's what makes the job interesting. You adapt to the needs of the composer and his/her music. As an orchestrator you must always remember it's their music and not yours. Sometimes it doesn't work. You get through the project but you both know that it doesn't quite click for whatever reason and that's fine. Better to go on and work with people that you can work more easily with.

It is, like any part of this business, building a relationship and a level of trust that allows each person to do their job to the best of their abilities.

W.


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## Sebastianmu (Sep 22, 2014)

MikeH @ Sun Sep 21 said:


> Listen to the recent Conrad Pope episode of SCOREcast to get some great insight into his role in orchestrating Williams' sketches.


Thank you so much for that, Mike! It was really filled with perspicacious insights!



> Here's some photos from JoAnn Kane's Music Service twitter.


And thanks for these, too, especially the second one. Though it doesn't show a very significant part of the piece, at least it gives some hints on how it works..


Cheers, 
Sebastian


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## Jetzer (Sep 24, 2014)

A little technical question. Probably, in your daw template you have several tracks for let's say violins I. For example my short and sus patches are on separate tracks. 

Do you clean up the midi file before sending it to the orchestrator, so that the notes for violin I are all one 1 track? Do you send stems for each individual track as well?


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## MikeH (Sep 24, 2014)

JH @ Wed Sep 24 said:


> A little technical question. Probably, in your daw template you have several tracks for let's say violins I. For example my short and sus patches are on separate tracks.
> 
> Do you clean up the midi file before sending it to the orchestrator, so that the notes for violin I are all one 1 track? Do you send stems for each individual track as well?



Cleaning up the midi as best as you can really helps the orchestration process go faster. However, if you are pressed for time the orchestrator will charge extra and do the midi cleanup or if you've got a big budget you can farm the transcription out to someone else who will then send it on to the orchestrator. 

Yes, I like to have stems of each grouping (brass, winds, strings, perc, etc.) if I'm doing the midi cleanup/transcription in addition to the orchestration. But as always, it's a question of time and resources.


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## JohnG (Sep 24, 2014)

JH @ 24th September 2014 said:


> A little technical question. Probably, in your daw template you have several tracks for let's say violins I. For example my short and sus patches are on separate tracks.
> 
> Do you clean up the midi file before sending it to the orchestrator, so that the notes for violin I are all one 1 track? Do you send stems for each individual track as well?



Actually, it is not always a good idea to clean these up, if that means combining them. Keeping them separate makes it really easy for the orchestrator to understand what you want.

Just did a video game with full orchestra / choir, with a well-known orchestrator who specifically asked us NOT to combine short and long articulations. Each category separate.


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## jamwerks (Sep 25, 2014)

Windle @ Mon Sep 22 said:


> The Composer-Orchestrator relationship is a subject with a single definitive answer.
> 
> For the Composer it is whatever you need it to be.


Well said. My thoughts exactly.


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## Daryl (Sep 25, 2014)

JohnG @ Thu Sep 25 said:


> JH @ 24th September 2014 said:
> 
> 
> > A little technical question. Probably, in your daw template you have several tracks for let's say violins I. For example my short and sus patches are on separate tracks.
> ...


Agreed. Even if it is less efficient for doing the initial programming it is often better for the orchestrator to see as well as hear. I've also sometimes been sent two project files; one "original" and one cleaned up. This can be handy for saving time, and it also gives access to the original programmed information, including CC movements, if it becomes necessary.

One of the worst things a composer can do is use something like Symphobia or an effects library just to make the tracks sound better for the director. I know at least one orchestrator who tries to persuade the composer leave these things as samples, because it takes too much effort to take them all down by dictation.

One other thing; if you like to put all of your percussion on one track laid out over the keyboard, send your orchestrator a mapping guide, so that they don't have to try to do it by dictation or work it out themselves.

D


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## Jetzer (Sep 25, 2014)

Thanks guys.


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## Pietro (Sep 25, 2014)

As an orchestrator, I prefer getting midi files not cleaned up. Unless there's like a lot of misleading stuff, mistakes in there or things that are not very clear about what they are. I can clean them up the way, they will suit me best, very fast. Whenever I do it, I use both midi and audio as a reference. Sometimes sketches I'm getting are so messy, it's easier to reconstruct them by ear.

But I also prefer not to compose, when orchestrating. There are times, materials I'm supposed to work from are just too sketchy and to make any sense of them, there's a lot of additional composition required. I don't like these situations and I try to avoid them. I can bend this rule, if I work for a friend though. It's a matter of understanding, trust, future and past collaborations. That's why a good composer-orchestrator relationship is the key. 

As a composer, I've never had anyone orchestrate for me. And I think I'd be pretty paranoid about it at first. Checking Sibelius files, number of parts, transposition, etc. :D

- Piotr


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