# Transpositional instruments !!



## groove (Aug 23, 2005)

Hi !

is there a method for reading transposed instrument (ex : clar in Bb etc...) that won't burn my brain :shock: 

i'm actually starting to read orchestral scores and i find it preaty painfull to read with diferent transposition...or am i being lazy ?

stephane


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## sbkp (Aug 23, 2005)

When I was a kid, I used to play French horn. And my dad plays clarinet. So he'd help me with my exercises, reading music written in F while playing an instrument in Bb.

Just _thinking_ about that burns my brain!

So no, I don't have any good ideas for you. :? 

- Stefan


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## José Herring (Aug 23, 2005)

groove said:


> ...or am i being lazy ?
> 
> stephane



Yeah, you're being lazy. :lol: 

It takes a bit of practice. Just remember that most intruments transpose down. If clarinet plays a C it sounds a step lower(b-flat). If F-forn plays a C it sounds a fifth down(F). Ect.

The only ones to watch out for are the instruments that sound an octave higher or lower than written. Picc is in c but sounds octave higher than written. Bass clarinet is usually in B-flat but sounds an octave and a major 2nd(9th) lower than written unless written in Bass clef then it only sounds a 2nd lower. 
Yeah you're right. I remember learning this stuff. I was lucky enough to learn it through playing and incremementally so I didn't have to know it all at once. It's tough stuff to keep in your head.

The only one that really throws me is Sax and e-flat clarinet. Which is a shame because I play the damn things. I never figured out the transposition on those instruments. Does anybody know if they transpose a major 6th down or a minor third up? I get confuse because I think sax sounds an octave lower than written and e-flat sounds and octave higher than written so when you figure in the transpostition from "C".... :? 

Now my head aches. Thanks a lot buddy  
Jose


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## Jackull (Aug 23, 2005)

groove said:


> Hi !
> is there a method for reading transposed instrument (ex : clar in Bb etc...) that won't burn my brain :shock:



In a nutshell you gotta remember F, Bb, Eb instruments. Occassionally you'll see some alto flute or clarinet in A which is not common IMO.
You can start looking one instrument at a time & as you become familiar with that instrument move on to the next one. There's no shortcut my friend.
Start by looking at Bb clarinet or french Horn since that's always present in most of the orchestral score. 
I'm the same as jose, sometimes i don't remember if an alto sax is M6 above or below...

my 2cents,
jackULL


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## synergy543 (Aug 23, 2005)

I'm not very good at sight-reading transpositions but if you can think in intervals it makes it much easier. Its just like subtracting numbers. Think down one number. If I say 10, the answer is 9. 8=7. 11=10. Now do the same with notes. Think down a major 2nd. C=Bb. G=F. So, in that way, I transpose on the fly. I guess with practice I won't need to translate an could just do it instantaneously. But hey, that 's what Sibelius and Digital Performer are for. :wink:

I remember the first time I learned to do this was a surprise to my sight-reading teacher who was certain she was going to flunk me. I walked into the exam and just played it while transposing in my head like above. She was baffled as to how I suddenly got so good! I didn't really, I just thought about it a different way.

My 2 cents.


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## jc5 (Aug 23, 2005)

Jackull, I must know - where are you in that picture? Is that the Mozart gift shop in Salzburg?  :lol:


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## Jackull (Aug 23, 2005)

jc5 said:


> Jackull, I must know - where are you in that picture? Is that the Mozart gift shop in Salzburg?  :lol:



You're close, although I've never been to Salzburg it's quite close. It is actually the musikhaus in Vienna, you know that little shop on the side where the theatre, forgot the street name. That's the time when I saw Seiji Osawa conducting the VPO... You like the outfit?


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## fictionmusic (Aug 23, 2005)

Best advice...get Prokofiev scores and read them. No transpositions to worry about. :lol:


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## synergy543 (Aug 24, 2005)

fictionmusic said:


> Best advice...get Prokofiev scores and read them. No transpositions to worry about. :lol:


....Well, there's still the alto clef :cry:


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## fictionmusic (Aug 24, 2005)

synergy543 said:


> fictionmusic said:
> 
> 
> > Best advice...get Prokofiev scores and read them. No transpositions to worry about. :lol:
> ...



oh yeah. good point.


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## groove (Aug 24, 2005)

Thanks everyones for your replies !!

and sorry for sharing my head aches :lol: 

so it looks like i'll have to get used to read with two eyes and two brains (one for what's writen and the other for what's the real note...huuuu)

i don't really have the sight reading problem as i'm not a trump player and when i'll write score yes we have great tools to transpose, my main concern was reading orchestral scores in my studies of orchetsration etc...

so yes i'll work on my alto clef because it is obvious that this one will allways be there and for the other i'll try remembering what the f#@k it the right transposing :roll: :roll: 

thanks again guys it was really interesting to see how others deal with that.

stephane


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## Scott Cairns (Sep 8, 2005)

Hi Stephane, if you can get your hands on a C score (conductors score) there is no transposition.

Everything is written as it sounds.


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## groove (Sep 9, 2005)

thanks Scott !

i thought C stands for the note :wink: :D 

actually i just bought the J Williams scores for Star Wars and some instrument like clarinettes are transposed but it is ok i'll get used !

but i'll check if i can find some scores in C

btw : stravinsky's "firebird" & "sacre du printemps" are not available outside of the US so i could only by a small (mini in size !!) version witch is really hard to read. damn i'll have to fly to NY or LA to by them... :?


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## Scott Cairns (Sep 9, 2005)

Hi mate, well having said that, I dont know how available c scores are outside of Hollywood.. I believe they are designed for the conductor to work quickly and change things on the fly.


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## synergy543 (Sep 9, 2005)

As David pointed out Prokofiev scores are not transposed.


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## FirmamentFX (Oct 4, 2005)

Scott Cairns said:


> I believe they are designed for the conductor to work quickly and change things on the fly.



But then the conductor would still have to transpose when he gives the note or alteration to the musician... :D

As a conductor, I prefer scores written *with* transposition (ie not in concert pitch), because then it's easy in rehearsal to call out notes to players (and there's no risk of making myself look a fool if I get the transposition wrong 8) ). It's also IMHO good practice to get into - the more you do it the better you get.

I suppose each to his/her own...! 

M


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## FrozeN (Oct 4, 2005)

synergy543 said:


> As David pointed out Prokofiev scores are not transposed.


And so are Webern's and Berg's scores.... but guess I wouldn't recommend those for studying orchestration or whatever. :lol: :lol:


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## SteveDunster (Dec 2, 2005)

I agree with FermamentFX

When you're in front of instrumentalists, you primary role is to get them to do what is in your head. The composition should be in your head before you get there.

When you are stood in the middle you are there to listen and to modify the way they are playing it if necessary. Hence a transposed score is most useful in that regard.

...but part of my prep is to go through the score and write the part of the chord that each person is actually playing, in pencil next to the notes (where harmony is important that is). So I would put a pencil '1' next to all the instruments that have the root, a '3' next to all those with the 3rd etc.

This gives you a quick way of rehearsing you have the right sound and colour in harmonic passages, but it is also an excellent way of learning the transpositions, in slow time - where you don't look so stupid.

If you don't go to these lengths, I'm not sure how you can "hear" in your mind what is written and therefore you wouldn't have an informed opinion as to how the instrumentalists are balancing.

Anyway, there you go, I hope it might have been of some help

Steve


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