# How much do mic preamps matter?



## pmountford (Jan 27, 2021)

Edit: I've just changed the title of this thread to be a little broader.

I'm asking how important the audio interface and mic pres are when recording nowadays? Have interfaces got the to point where it doesn't matter that much? When recording, presumably I'm looking for transparency, accuracy and level? Or do users buy preamps/particular interfaces for colour? How much should you spend before there is little audible difference?

I'm recording solo string players (violin & cello) this year in my project studio so I'm questioning whether my interface/preamps are up to the job.

Assuming that the mics are fine (Coles ribbon, Neumann KM184's), the players and their instruments are great, the acoustic space is suitable, the only other questions is whether the recording interface and preamps are really up to it. What would pros use on a budget?

When I finally get the Behringer X32 Rack returned (repair/replace PSU taking 6 months) I'm looking at using that. In the meantime, before you choke/scoff/ROFL, I've been using a cheap and cheerful Behringer UMC404HD interface and, to my ears, it's done the job fine. But what should I 'really' be looking for in an interface/preamp. Transparency or colour when recording strings? The solo players will be pretty exposed in the final recordings so I want to get it right. Is the X32 the weakest link in the chain (excluding me , of course...) and am I just getting suckered in with all of the marketing or will the X32 be fine?


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jan 28, 2021)

Most interfaces will give you decent clean preamps. Higher end cleaner preamps generally have a more open sound and better top end. Then there are all of the ones for color.

The preamps on your interface are probably perfectly fine for your uses. If you wanted something higher end then the AEA preamps are a great step up but not too expensive. There's also the 500 series Grace but I've heard that it's not as good as their 8 channel units so probably not worth getting. 

On the other hand, depending on the sound that you're going for, you could use more colored preamps. There are lots of cheap tube pres around. Without spending a fortune, I'm not sure if they'd end up being better than using the preamps on your interface plus some saturation plugins.


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## JohnG (Jan 28, 2021)

I think the key is to get good enough amp, speakers, speaker wire, and D/A converter so you can actually hear any difference. For many years I scoffed at expensive monitors and cables etc. Had Hosa, all kinds of very inexpensive stuff, and produced music that went on the air nationally with it. So I was pretty scornful of all that.

Until I replaced everything with more of a professional grade. Problem is that it's not that cheap and you have to replace everything in your listening chain, from D/A through speaker cables to the amp and speakers, or you may not hear any difference at all.

I know that's not exactly a straight answer, but my guess is that it's pretty hard to hear any meaningful difference in microphones and preamps unless you can hear everything clearly.


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## pmountford (Jan 28, 2021)

JohnG said:


> I think the key is actually to get good enough amp, speakers, speaker wire, and D/A converter so you can actually hear any difference.


Certainly makes sense. Like you say, if you can't hear a difference then it doesn't matter what you record with. I'm still wearing in a new pair of Lyd 48's which were a step up from previous monitors. So the interface which contains the pres I presume is the weakest link. But I'm only going on price which isnt a great yardstick. I suppose you just don't know until you A/B these things?


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## sostenuto (Jan 28, 2021)

Recently went dedicated amp/preamp route on DAW#2 for headphones & mics. Schiit Audio for Fones, but staggered at options for mics.

As @JohnG points out .... every component in the chain is a factor. Better Mic, better Preamp, higher (notably) cost.
Personally found it quite difficult to make 'valid' spec comparisons for Audio I/F(s) versus dedicated devices. Would be cool if industry had standard and 'comparable' specs to help sort these. Not really content with very general notion that x,y,z Audio I/F(s) should be adequate.

**** * also found that going 'dedicated' route .... _still_ .... requires Audio I/F (or some alternative) to provide needed system In/Out connections.


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## GtrString (Jan 28, 2021)

Its not so much what is better, its what you like?

Some like clean, transparent sounding tracks, and some like more rich sounds.

If you like rich sounds, you would want a preamp and maybe an eq and a comp. That way you record a «sound».

If you like clean and transparent tracks that you will spend more time sculpting in your daw, you are surely fine with the preamps in your audio interface.


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## sostenuto (Jan 28, 2021)

Driving 600 ohm Beyer.. Fones here and definitely experience differences with I/F(s) and HDFone Amp.
Mic(s) a bit tougher to sort, and I/F ( _2ea Focusrite Pro14_ ) likely as capable as current Rode AI-1 with decent Dynamic mics. Gets much tougher as other/better Mics added.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 28, 2021)

The difference between built-in preamps on a budget audio interface and a high-end dedicated mic preamp is very obvious when you hear it. It's not particularly subtle - and it makes sense that it wouldn't be, because the ones in budget audio interface are $10 in parts vs. $ hundreds in a boutique unit.

Solo strings recorded with very good mics are going to make the differences even more obvious.


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## JohnG (Jan 28, 2021)

pmountford said:


> I suppose you just don't know until you A/B these things?


Unfortunately, all too true. Most of the talk on this subject is pretty much just that: talk.

You will see breathless testimonials all over but unless you upgrade everything in the chain, as you wrote, you likely won't hear any difference. 

I use Lavry Blue for D/A conversion and a very nice Crown Studio Reference II amp, and some fancy speaker wire. The latter, the high end speaker wire, I scorned, disdained, and scoffed at, until I tried it, having replaced everything else. Couldn't believe what a difference it made. 

Part of this can be a trick of the ear -- in general, louder sounds better if you A/B anything, so it's easy to be fooled.

But anyway, I am glad I have everything a bit more advanced. Overall I think it was in the range of $7k, so it wasn't inexpensive.

One of my friends paid $30k for his speakers. He says they are amazing -- hope so!


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## ed buller (Jan 28, 2021)

So it really depends WHAT you are recording and what with ?.....So a distorted electric guitar through a small amp with a shure 57 ....you won't notice a lot of difference between a cheap solid state and a top of the range tube.............However.......a beautiful Martin acoustic miked with a pair of B&K's will really start to sound very very different through different pre's. The expensive ones are expensive for a good reason. They really do sound amazing.

best

ed


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 28, 2021)

ed buller said:


> a pair of B&K's will really start to sound very very different through different pre's.



He's using a Cole ribbon mic and KM184s. Those are good mics.

By the way, re: what Gerald said:



Gerhard Westphalen said:


> There are lots of cheap tube pres around. Without spending a fortune, I'm not sure if they'd end up being better than using the preamps on your interface plus some saturation plugins.


Those are low-voltage tubes, using the tube for major saturation - which is what a lot of people picture when they think of "tube warmth." That's not what really good, high-voltage tube circuits do, in fact one of my first surprises with the Millennia STT-1, which lets you switch between tube and solid-state paths, was how the tube path can actually sound more open and airy (depending on the mic, etc.).

...which isn't to say that "starved" tube processors aren't legit, just that they do what they do do and they don't do what they don't do and it's going to sound like doo-doo if you... you get the idea.


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## ed buller (Jan 28, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> He's using a Cole ribbon mic and KM184s. Those are good mics.


They are !...sorry didn't see that. Well then they deserve the best. I'd go for some Gracie's...very low noise floor. Lovely with ribbons

best

e


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## Dietz (Jan 28, 2021)

JohnG said:


> in general, louder sounds better if you A/B anything, so it's easy to be fooled.


You can't mention this^^^^^^ often enough.


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## jononotbono (Jan 28, 2021)

They are very important...

Providing you have a great room, monitors, headphones, headphone preamp, cabling, microphones, Salt Rock Lamp.


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## sostenuto (Jan 28, 2021)

jononotbono said:


> They are very important...
> 
> Providing you have a great room, monitors, headphones, headphone preamp, cabling, microphones, Salt Rock Lamp.


_Stereo_ Salt Rock Lamps plz !


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## pmountford (Jan 28, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The difference between built-in preamps on a budget audio interface and a high-end dedicated mic preamp is very obvious when you hear it. It's not particularly subtle - and it makes sense that it wouldn't be, because the ones in budget audio interface are $10 in parts vs. $ hundreds in a boutique unit.


That's what I would have expected, too, but I don't have the experience to back it up.

Thinking of options, would I be looking for an audio interface with respectable preamps built in or do I go preamp only (presumably connected via ADAT to interface)? What sort of budget or interface or preamp would you suggest as a starting point?

I don't think I'm after a coloured sound - prefer transparent.


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## kgdrum (Jan 28, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The difference between built-in preamps on a budget audio interface and a high-end dedicated mic preamp is very obvious when you hear it. It's not particularly subtle - and it makes sense that it wouldn't be, because the ones in budget audio interface are $10 in parts vs. $ hundreds in a boutique unit.
> 
> Solo strings recorded with very good mics are going to make the differences even more obvious.


+1
I totally agree

I have a RME UCX which has pretty good built in preamps for a i/o but for vocal mics I use a Great River ME-1NV which is a very nice Neve clone and to my ears there’s a significant difference in the sound.
This might not be the best analogy but imo using very good microphones like the OP is using & going into built in preamps in a Behringer i/o is like getting a great sports car and putting on tires made for a entry level car and expecting the performance the car was designed to offer.
I think there are less differences in the dacs in most of the i/o choices(although the differences are real and audible) but the mic preamps vary widely whether you want clean or colored preamps.
From my experience if a manufacturer is marketing a budget oriented i/o the easiest way to limit the cost of manufacturing is using substandard mic preamps.
I previously had a RME FF800 and a couple of MOTU i/o’s and the mic preamps were to my ears the weakest link in the chain,that’s what motivated me to finally get a dedicated pre like the Great River preamp.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 28, 2021)

Re: two posts up...

Last first: a colored (coloured) sound - a good one - is more like an interesting opinion than a distortion of reality.  Your KM184s are bright mics, for example, which is a color.

Whether you're better off with a better audio interface or better preamps is hard to say. It depends on both. I haven't heard your audio interface, but in general the differences in the way they sound, especially budget ones, are pretty subtle until you get to the higher end.

As an aside, the ADAT digital format is good format for carrying the signal, but wired digital formats (AES or S/PDIF) are better for carrying the digital clock. Alesis used a 9-pin wire to carry the clock when they introduced the ADAT optical format. But that's a tangent.


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## sostenuto (Jan 28, 2021)

pmountford said:


> That's what I would have expected, too, but I don't have the experience to back it up.
> 
> Thinking of options, would I be looking for an audio interface with respectable preamps built in or do I go preamp only (presumably connected via ADAT to interface)? What sort of budget or interface or preamp would you suggest as a starting point?
> 
> I don't think I'm after a coloured sound - prefer transparent.


_Repeating earlier posted comment:_ _ finding it challenging to develop meaningful comparison specs for top I/F(s) versus dedicated amps/preamps ( both Mic and Headphone specs ).
Perhaps not noting relevant detail, and open to analysis by capable Users.

This, and other 'discussions', make Mic upgrade pricey. Involves both Mic decision + appropriate Preamp to support it ..... $$$$$

_Great River Desktop now focus point. THX !_


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 28, 2021)

Dietz said:


> You can't mention this^^^^^^ often enough.


And it becomes even more true when you shout it.


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## Collywobbles (Jan 28, 2021)

I'm reminded of an old SOS article I really enjoyed back in the day, they did a preamp shootout using a disklavier to minimise any performance variations. I don't recall them using any interface pre's specifically, but still an interesting read nonetheless.

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/pick-preamp
Results:






Preamp Post-mortem


When we compared eight mic preamps with very different designs and price tags, we found it hard to tell them apart. Could SOS readers do better?




www.soundonsound.com


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## Tim_Wells (Jan 28, 2021)

Personally, I'd get a better interface with nice built in preamp, such as an RME, a Universal Apollo, an or Audient. I'm sure there's other good choices.

Speaking only for myself, but buying an external pre-amp is not worth it. The difference is subtle and I've had some good ones, like Great River and A Designs.


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## jononotbono (Jan 28, 2021)

Tim_Wells said:


> Personally, I'd get a better interface with nice built in preamp, such as an RME, a Universal Apollo, an or Audient. I'm sure there's other good choices.


Yeah, honestly, the Apollo Twin X is such a great little interface. Perfect for small project studios when Surround isn’t part of the equation. The Unity preamps are good, designed for UAD Plugins and the headphone amp is definitely good enough. I think it’s one of the best things I’ve ever used. Sure it’s not Lavry, Mytek, Prism, but man, the thing rocks! So amazing!


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## sostenuto (Jan 28, 2021)

Tim_Wells said:


> Personally, I'd get a better interface with nice built in preamp, such as an RME, a Universal Apollo, an or Audient. I'm sure there's other good choices.
> 
> Speaking only for myself, but buying an external pre-amp is not worth it. The difference is subtle and I've had some good ones, like Great River and A Designs.


Trust your input and 'subtle' descriptor. Also confident with long-term reputation of top I/F providers. Maybe being stubborn (_dog with bone_), but still want to compare relevant specs of e.g. RME vs Great River. 
Becoming more realistic now and I/F's offer other benefits in terms of PC connection. Would be helpful to be able to chart RME or Apollo or Audient with comparable, dedicated Mic Preamps. Likely you know which specs are key, and can compare Great River with RME or Apollo Twin X ? No longer ins major city environs, and very tough to do any level of A/B.


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## Tim_Wells (Jan 28, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> Trust your input and 'subtle' descriptor. Also confident with long-term reputation of top I/F providers. Maybe being stubborn (_dog with bone_), but still want to compare relevant specs of e.g. RME vs Great River.
> Becoming more realistic now and I/F's offer other benefits in terms of PC connection. Would be helpful to be able to chart RME or Apollo or Audient with comparable, dedicated Mic Preamps. Likely you know which specs are key, and can compare Great River with RME or Apollo Twin X ? No longer ins major city environs, and very tough to do any level of A/B.


I doubt that there are any specs that would tell you anything meaningful. 

I'm speaking in very general terms here, but what a good external pre-amp provides is a bit color, along with gain. The preamps on most audio interfaces also provide gain, but tend to be more on the clean side. You always have the option of adding your own color with plugins and you're not locked into the color of the external preamp. 

I guess it all depends on what your doing. I'm just recording a few tracks with a mic. The rest is in the box. I just want some nice clean gain. I really don't need anything else. But if you're micing a lot of tracks and instruments, it may make sense to have a pallet of preamps and other outboard gear. But then you want a top notch signal chain from start to finish.


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## pmountford (Jan 28, 2021)

Tim_Wells said:


> I'm just recording a few tracks with a mic. The rest is in the box. I just want some nice clean gain. I really don't need anything else.


And that explains my situation too. Typically 2 mic inputs. Although 4 or 6 mics would be nice when recording string ensemble. 

So is something like an Audient ID44 good enough? Would I actually record anything better?I know there's alot of love for RME but isn't that usually due to solid drivers? Are the pre amps really any better than? Universal Audio looks great but not interested in dsp power and paying extra for more plugins.


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## Stringtree (Jan 28, 2021)

These days, most of the sensitive gain work is done with surface-mounted integrated circuits. The result is buffering and amplification with low noise. These parts are four dollars.

Aside from support components that provide feedback and linearity, if you look at the specs for many interfaces, the charts are similar. Flat like pancake, extending into kHz most of us can't even hear, but capture harmonics.

Audient, Focusrite, SSL, RND, Millenia. If you're doing "classical" recording, all these are great. You even have great mics that are used a lot in the industry.

Performance. Room, room, room, room. Placement. Entire signal chain. Cables are really seriously a part of this. It's signal transmission. I like an external preamp because a stiff line-level signal is good ingredients to be cooking with before things hit A/D.

For vocals, guitars, DI, it's fantastic to be able to have the ability to not load the source. So higher-quality interfaces and preamps give you the choice.

It's my personal opinion that composite devices are sort of a mixed bag. You have great mics, and you're plugging them into a Behringer with a performance level that is an odd match. I wouldnae do that, but there's nothing wrong with doing that.

A U87 is really boring. It's a known thing, like NS-10 monitors. But it's not magical. However, through something 1073-ish or crispy like some Chandler gear, it starts to sizzle.

For solely classical, I would go with RME, Audient, Millenia, something dead flat and popular in that area.


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## Tim_Wells (Jan 28, 2021)

pmountford said:


> And that explains my situation too. Typically 2 mic inputs. Although 4 or 6 mics would be nice when recording string ensemble.
> 
> So is something like an Audient ID44 good enough? Would I actually record anything better?I know there's alot of love for RME but isn't that usually due to solid drivers? Are the pre amps really any better than? Universal Audio looks great but not interested in dsp power and paying extra for more plugins.


Sorry, I can't personally vouch for the Audient. But I've only heard good things, especially regarding the pre-amps. It's got a perfect 5 out of 5 with 45 reviews on Sweetwater. I don't think the drivers are quite on par with RME.

Of those being discussed, my only experience is with the RME Babyface Pro. I've certainly been happy with the pres and as I said, I've had some pretty nice external units for comparison. But to be fair, I do prefer and clean, more transparent sound.


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## AudioLoco (Jan 29, 2021)

There is nothing subtle in the difference between a source recorded with a Behringer preamp and a Neve one. The difference is huge. If you are doing a modern vocal sound with tons of processing (hard autotune, distortion, mangling etc) who cares. But for acoustic instruments?! Night and day. 

The only way to appreciate the difference for untrained ears is ABing. Another moment it jumps out as an important factor is during the mixing process, when you start compressing and EQing etc. The source recorded with a more "solid" preamp will take the processing better and will not crumble.

Even the best interfaces out there have preamps that, while being clean and trustworthy pale once you use a dedicated one. Once you go up in price the difference between various models and makes becomes sometimes more subtle, especially in the case of same topology.

A high quality stereo unit is a great investment for years to come. Those great mics the OP has deserve a better pre!

PS I own Audient preamps too and I don't think they are a great improvement over the RME preamps.
In case of just upgrading the audio interface, I would go with Rock solid and clean RME.


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## pmountford (Jan 29, 2021)

Thanks all so far for your input. Extrapolating from the feedback so far, the contenders would be Audient ID44 (£400 + external line mic/inputs) or RME Fireface 802(£1100). 

To be more specific, I'm after clean 4x mic input (solo/ens strings), 2x headphone outs (independent mix ), 4 stereo inputs (keyboards/synths.)


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## sostenuto (Jan 29, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> There is nothing subtle in the difference between a source recorded with a Behringer preamp and a Neve one. The difference is huge. If you are doing a modern vocal sound with tons of processing (hard autotune, distortion, mangling etc) who cares. But for acoustic instruments?! Night and day.
> 
> The only way to appreciate the difference for untrained ears is ABing. Another moment it jumps out as an important factor is during the mixing process, when you start compressing and EQing etc. The source recorded with a more "solid" preamp will take the processing better and will not crumble.
> 
> ...


Lots of searching agrees with this. Now faced with decision on connections to Home Studio Win10 Pro PC DAW. Are there better, affordable solutions than duplication functionality with Audio I/F ??? 
Have considered Focusrite 18i8 but is there a better device just providing in/out connections .... in the ~$300. range ?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 29, 2021)

JohnG said:


> You will see breathless testimonials all over but unless you upgrade everything in the chain, as you wrote, you likely won't hear any difference.



No question, weak link and all that.

However, some things in the chain obviously make more of a difference than others! That starts with transducers (mics and speakers), but I think you'd hear the difference with a high-end preamp even through a budget audio interface.

A few years ago there was a story going around the Internet about some double-blind test that "proved" there was no difference between audio interfaces. Ridiculous on its face! But it does underline that the differences between converters are on the more subtle side - at the level where you need a decent monitoring chain to... if not hear, at least hear enough of a difference to be concerned.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 29, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> Even the best interfaces out there have preamps that, while being clean and trustworthy pale once you use a dedicated one. Once you go up in price the difference between various models and makes becomes sometimes more subtle, especially in the case of same topology.
> 
> A high quality stereo unit is a great investment for years to come. Those great mics the OP has deserve a better pre!



That's definitely true - high-end analog equipment (and instruments) is quite different from the "use it until Apple drops 32-bit support" treadmill!


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## sostenuto (Jan 29, 2021)

Very senior/seasoned ears here and quite aware of hi-freq falloff in recent years.
Psychoacoustics may be wrong term, but trusting that increasingly higher quality source devices (Mics and Mic Preamps, will produce 'beat' frequencies, other enhancements which ears will detect and brain will process ??  

Main source interest is solo vocals. Prefer to try incremental improvements ( vs current Audix OM2 & Rode AI-1 ).


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## easyrider (Jan 29, 2021)

Certain character pre amps give you girth....


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## pmountford (Jan 29, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Certain character pre amps give you girth....


Girth is something I already have plenty of... 😄


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## Markus Kohlprath (Jan 29, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> _Stereo_ Salt Rock Lamps plz !


You mean like this?


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## sostenuto (Jan 29, 2021)

*^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^*
Close ..... no cigar !


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## Tim_Wells (Jan 29, 2021)

Just be careful before you spend a lot of money on something that may make no meaningful difference to your productions. Been there. Done that. Got the T-shirt.


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## sostenuto (Jan 29, 2021)

Tim_Wells said:


> Just be careful before you spend a lot of money on something that may make no meaningful difference to your productions. Been there. Done that. Got the T-shirt.


Comprende __ but how does anyone have an honest clue where the dividing line is between what matters and what does not ??
I choose specifications + personal reactions. Other have many other parameters. If Audio I/F(s) are all anyone truly needs ( _for Headphone and Mic Preamps/Amps_ ), then why is this not affirmed by many respected pros, and toss anything else aside ??

Total PITA to have so many 'opinions' and potential to spend hundreds, or thousands, or even tens of thousands, for ostensibly little to no benefit ?

Not looking for black or white answers/solutions, but if there are no answers here ..... then where ?

Ready too spend $1,100. +.... right now .... if RME I/F is as good as anything offered as dedicated Mic/Headphone Preamp/Amp no matter the cost. Really !

Have not found any trusted source to affirm this.


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## kgdrum (Jan 29, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> Comprende' but how does anyone, apart from _ _professionals, and comparatively wealthy_ _ have an honest clue where the dividing line is between what matters and what does not ??
> I choose specifications + personal reactions. Other have many other parameters. If Audio I/F(s) are all anyone truly needs ( for Headphone and Mic Preamps/Amps ), then why is this not affirmed by many respected pros, and toss anything else aside ??
> 
> I am really not stupid, or even totally ignorant, in this discussion ..... but total PITA to have so many 'opinions' and potential to spend hundreds, or thousands, or even tens of thousands, for ostensibly little to no benefit ?
> ...


Well in my case the Great River ME-1NV was a no-brainer,it’s essentially a 1 channel Neve clone(they also make a 2 channel version).
The beauty with a Neve design is you can make adjustments and change the amount of color substantially,it’s a matter of context and taste.
You will never get this sound from a interface unless you’re either using a Neve style preamp or you go with a UAD Apollo with a Neve preamp plug-in.
I’m a longtime UAD user but I still think the actual preamp will produce better results than using a Neve type plugin with the Apollo interface.
I intentionally bought this for color and tweak-abilitiy.
I have a Rode NTK retrofitted with a NOS tube and until I added the Great River I hated the mic on my voice.With the ME-1NV I almost sound like a singer now and I actually like the NTK,the difference is astounding!

Additionally this lists for $1150,I actually lucked out and a dealer sold me a new one for $850.
He’s a regular on Gearslutz so he gave me a deal because I’m a proud Slut! lol 😂
He have me such a nice deal he made me promise never to divulge who I bought this from,so my lips are sealed. 🤐

If you put a vocal mic,a bass or a guitar etc..... through this and you don’t hear an immediate difference I will suggest you get your ears checked.









Great River ME-1NV Desktop Microphone Preamp


Mono Mic Preamp with 20Hz-75kHz Frequency Response, 70dB Gain, and hi-Z Input




www.sweetwater.com


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## companyofquail (Jan 29, 2021)

i really hate to make your decision even more difficult BUT one thing to keep in mind is that the mic and pre need to work well together (this can be subjective). so my suggestion is to find something recorded that you like the way it sounds. preferably by someone that is easy to talk to/get a hold of. then find out what they used. 

i feel like the uad apollo is one of the best bets out there. good pres and good plugins that can make it sound more colored if need be. ive been using uad for close to twenty years now and i like their products a lot. hardware and software. 

dont get me wrong, if you can afford 8 neve channels then def go for that. but if you are on a reasonable budget the uad is a great value.

another one that i have had good luck with in the past is the focusrite isa 428. this one is cool because it has variable impedence which makes it work with a broader range of microphones and it also has a digital output card option.


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## sostenuto (Jan 29, 2021)

companyofquail said:


> i really hate to make your decision even more difficult BUT one thing to keep in mind is that the mic and pre need to work well together (this can be subjective). so my suggestion is to find something recorded that you like the way it sounds. preferably by someone that is easy to talk to/get a hold of. then find out what they used.
> 
> i feel like the uad apollo is one of the best bets out there. good pres and good plugins that can make it sound more colored if need be. ive been using uad for close to twenty years now and i like their products a lot. hardware and software.
> 
> ...


No position at all to do other then read/listen and learn. Was earlier very close to _ISA ONE_ purchase and still on short list. _Warm - Tone Beast_ also on list .... as narrow focus here on Vocals. 

Your emphasis on combo of Mic and Pre has my attention and will spend some time sorting this.


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## sostenuto (Jan 29, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> Well in my case the Great River ME-1NV was a no-brainer,it’s essentially a 1 channel Neve clone(they also make a 2 channel version).
> The beauty with a Neve design is you can make adjustments and change the amount of color substantially,it’s a matter of context and taste.
> You will never get this sound from a interface unless you’re either using a Neve style preamp or you go with a UAD Apollo with a Neve preamp plug-in.
> I’m a longtime UAD user but I still think the actual preamp will produce better results than using a Neve type plugin with the Apollo interface.
> ...


Definitely jealous of your purchase ! $1150. is a stretch given need to combine with appropriate USB I/F __ simply to access Desktop Win10 Pro PC. Thinking Focusrite 18i8 can do this as will not be using Mic or Headphone circuits. 
With focus on solo vocals, will try to sort Mic Upgrade now. Hoping to stay with Dynamic and avoid pricey room changes .... Neumann-BCM 705, Shure SM7B, ??

THX for helping!


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## kgdrum (Jan 29, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> Definitely jealous of your purchase ! $1150. is a stretch given need to combine with appropriate USB I/F __ simply to access Desktop Win10 Pro PC. Thinking Focusrite 18i8 can do this as will not be using Mic or Headphone circuits.
> With focus on solo vocals, will try to sort Mic Upgrade now. Hoping to stay with Dynamic and avoid pricey room changes ....
> 
> THX for helping!


Are you saying you don’t even use an I/O?
The Focusrite will sound nice and be an improvement over a typical preamp in an interface but it will never sound like a Neve.
In case you’ve never used a Neve style pre it’s a color,character and saturation oriented Preamp and it’s adjustable.


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## gsilbers (Jan 29, 2021)

I’m late for this post but the last 10 years these interface companies have up their game and their preamps are more than good for clean preamp.

you really won’t hear a big difference between a $3k Avalon and a behringer uphoria preamp if it’s just Simple point and shoot sort of recording.

most dedicated preamps have a gain and volume knob. Once you crank that gain (but lower the volume) it’s when you start to hear a noticeable difference.
Specially for colored type preamps like neve/neve clones.

From behringer, to focusrite to audient and uad and rme, you won’t get a bad choice in terms of preamp and conversions.

unlike my mbox1, sound blaster and even my virus ti and other gear trying to do interface duties. Those sound very bad.

i had to buy a cheap interface and went w the behringer uphoria not expecting much. Turns out I couldn’t tell a difference between my rme and that uphoria in preamp and conversion. Both sounded about the same.

and started digging a little more. 
And you can see a lot of comparison videos where if there is a difference, it’s very subtle and not “better” just a bit different.

after you check the videos, try and see the comments. It’s funny that when people know what preamp
Or interface it is, they say the big name brand is better (rme, neve, uad etc) but if you see videos (or wav file comparison at gearslutS) where the answers are not shown even guys with many years working mixing and recoding could not tell a difference.

So it’s a lot of marketing. 
mic and preamps are not advance rocket science engineering. 
If China can mass produce something so amazing like these new phones but for some reason cannot a 60 year old German tech?! 

if you see behringer factories you start to see how they can lower so much the price. Same w these other products. The sheer hugeness of economies of scale can easily make these old tech for cheap and still be good.

and preamps is more like wines. Where there is really no reason a wine should cost $79 a bottle but wine guys say it’s better. Normal people say it’s better. And it’s better because we see that higher price.

In the last 10 years a lot has changed. No more crappy China stuff. It’s just everything now is from China and they can do the same as any German or American. And maybe even 10 times better by now.

so dedicated preamps will have that extra mic gain knob that brings in more harmonics/saturation and that’s what sounds better for people.

but normal gain staging will be the same between interface vs high end.


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## sostenuto (Jan 29, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> Are you saying you don’t even use an I/O?
> The Focusrite will sound nice and be an improvement over a typical preamp in an interface but it will never sound like a Neve.
> In case you’ve never used a Neve style pre it’s a color,character and saturation oriented Preamp and it’s adjustable.


No, no ! I need additional In/Outs to Desktop PC Motherboard. Now running Schiit Audio Dac + Asgard3 Headphone Amp _ but low-end Audix OM2 Mic and Rode AI-1 Preamp (_has USB Out_). This is what needs to be upgraded. Will need some way to connect Great River, Warm Audio, xxxx to PC.


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## pmountford (Jan 30, 2021)

Tim_Wells said:


> Just be careful before you spend a lot of money on something that may make no meaningful difference to your productions. Been there. Done that. Got the T-shirt.


Indeed. I'm with @sostenuto here - there appears to be so much hyperbole, marketing and black magic around this subject. Surely there's got to be some meaningful correlation between cost and end result?


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## kgdrum (Jan 30, 2021)

pmountford said:


> Indeed. I'm with @sostenuto here - there appears to be so much hyperbole, marketing and black magic around this subject. Surely there's got to be some meaningful correlation between cost and end result?


No hyperbole,if you use a good mic with a good pre you will understand.
You really can’t make an informed decision by reading posts in a forum,you have to try,LISTEN and judge for yourself.


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## AudioLoco (Jan 30, 2021)

My 20+ years experience of recording instruments tell me there is no black magic.

Everyone can believe what they want - I won't argue, I just talk about my personal experience and findings using these thingies to amplify the signal of a mic or instrument for a long time.


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## pmountford (Jan 30, 2021)

I'm certainly not suggesting what's being said here is hyperbole - perhaps I worded it wrong? I was really referring to the magazine & online reviews. The reason I raised this question was to pull on the wealth of experience and knowledge here in this forum. 

I suppose in my case because I'm looking at recording certain instruments with particular mics I already have (that I thought were pretty common for recording strings), I was hoping there might be a particular more usual pairing but then again with so many options, it's a big ask. And I guess many string players are recorded in 'proper' studios?


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## AudioLoco (Jan 30, 2021)

Apologies if my post came out harsh...Didn't mean to. 

You have very very fine mics and good preamps would feel a bit like upgrading the mics you already have.
As others suggested... AEA are great for your Coles, Milleania are generally great for classical (being super clean with little or no coloration), valve topolgy is great for vocals and bass (the least expensive I can think of no is the UA610 Solo). API is known for being "fast" and working really well with drums and percussion. Neve type (1073) is great for flavour and honestly most things sound awesome thorough those circuits. (1073 with the km184s sound great for stringed instruments)

Like I said earlier, from a certain quality/price level on the difference become very subtle and is up to intended use and taste.

best!


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## pmountford (Jan 30, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> Apologies if my post came out harsh...Didn't mean to.


Same here - I wasn't trying to belittle any advice here. I value yours, and others, input on the subject.


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## kgdrum (Jan 30, 2021)

I totally agree with @AudioLoco
to answer your question, I think you will have a difficult time locating a “proper studio” recording strings or much of anything really using a good mic with Beringer preamps.
There’s a reason why it’s referred to as a recording chain,throw a substandard preamp in the path and you will lose the benefits of recording instruments with good microphones.


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## Stringtree (Jan 30, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> Apologies if my post came out harsh...Didn't mean to.
> 
> You have very very fine mics and good preamps would feel a bit like upgrading the mics you already have.
> As others suggested... AEA are great for your Coles, Milleania are generally great for classical (being super clean with little or no coloration), valve topolgy is great for vocals and bass (the least expensive I can think of no is the UA610 Solo). API is known for being "fast" and working really well with drums and percussion. Neve type (1073) is great for flavour and honestly most things sound awesome thorough those circuits. (1073 with the km184s sound great for stringed instruments)
> ...


This is good advice, IMHO.

In my experience, finding out involved collecting a bunch of them and finding out for myself. It was a good way, but I would buy everything used if I had to do it again. The really nice equipment doesn't depreciate a whole lot.

One thing I did that I'm happy with is get stereo wherever possible.

And a neat idea I picked up from this thread is using a NOS tube in my newer pre. With piles of tubes from my ham radio hobby, I bet I have an oldy-but-goody 12AX7.

Focusrite Liquid Saffire 56
Rupert Neve Designs 5012 
Focusrite ISA Two
Chandler Limited TG-2 500
Presonus TubePre V2

U87 Ai
AKG C414 XLS (3)
KM 184 (2)
TLM49
MD441
Beyer M500 ribbon
Trion 8000 tube
Trion 7000 ribbon


Truthfully, if I knew what I knew now, I would have thrown cash at one of those Burl Bomber thingies and gotten some serious A/D conversion going on.


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## AudioLoco (Jan 30, 2021)

Stringtree said:


> This is good advice, IMHO.
> 
> In my experience, finding out involved collecting a bunch of them and finding out for myself. It was a good way, but I would buy everything used if I had to do it again. The really nice equipment doesn't depreciate a whole lot.
> 
> ...


Love the TG-2! On electric guitar amp and drum overheads in particular.
The Bomber is amazing (and has the best British Racing Green color ever!), but kind of overkill unless it's on the stereo master IMHO....


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## sostenuto (Jan 30, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> Apologies if my post came out harsh...Didn't mean to.
> 
> You have very very fine mics and good preamps would feel a bit like upgrading the mics you already have.
> As others suggested... AEA are great for your Coles, Milleania are generally great for classical (being super clean with little or no coloration), valve topolgy is great for vocals and bass (the least expensive I can think of no is the UA610 Solo). API is known for being "fast" and working really well with drums and percussion. Neve type (1073) is great for flavour and honestly most things sound awesome thorough those circuits. (1073 with the km184s sound great for stringed instruments)
> ...


For my learning, these comments are helpful and make clear how woeful my personal knowledge and experience ! Decades in large cities, with access to many top outlets for the best in audio tools.
Now in wonderful, scenic, smaller locale, and virtually no way to learn by first-hand trial. 
Forums, notably VI-C, are one available channel, to view comments by capable individuals, and make incremental steps forward. No false belief that this substitutes for years of first hand access and utilization.

Thank-you for sharing valued impressions. 
(edit) Will slow down, continue sifting specifics for personal ... solo Vocal application, and ( most importantly ) take smaller $$ steps forward rather than lurch into large investment with such limited experience and knowledge.


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## AudioLoco (Jan 30, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> For my learning, these comments are helpful and make clear how woeful my personal knowledge and experience ! Decades in large cities, with access to many top outlets for the best in audio tools.
> Now in wonderful, scenic, smaller locale, and virtually no way to learn by first-hand trial.
> Forums, notably VI-C, are one available channel, to view comments by capable individuals, and make incremental steps forward. No false belief that this substitutes for years of first hand access and utilization.
> 
> Thank-you for sharing valued impressions.


Cheers! Anytime!


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## Tim_Wells (Jan 30, 2021)

I guess what I'd say, is make sure you have you listening environment as good as it can possibly be before you you start spending money on expensive pre-amps. That's where you'll really see the greatest benefit.

And that doesn't just mean buying expensive monitors (although that will help). It also means treatment and tuning.


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## sostenuto (Jan 30, 2021)

Tim_Wells said:


> I guess what I'd say, is make sure you have you listening environment as good as it can possibly be before you you start spending money on expensive pre-amps. That's where you'll really see the greatest benefit.
> 
> And that doesn't just mean buying expensive monitors (although that will help). It also means treatment and tuning.


Solid point .... yet begs the question .... what are parameters each user is trying to meet ?
I can only post, and inquire, re. current, personal goals. For serious Home Studio needs/wants ... trying to upgrade existing Mic /Preamp _ for solo Vocals ( mostly female ).

Their _typical_ performance venues _ small clubs and private parties _ have virtually no control over room dynamics. This still poses challenge of selecting/investing in 'decent' Mic /Preamp. Present focus is on best affordable combo for this need. 
If Dynamic Mic & Audio I/F are thought to be perfectly appropriate, then this is easy solution. I simply do not have basis for making this choice versus dedicated Mic Preamp. Apologies for injecting very narrow interest in this diverse topic.


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## Stringtree (Jan 30, 2021)

I got some lessons in a real studio with someone experienced. I heard for myself and asked a lot of questions. After burning a lot of hours on GS and other websites, this turned out to be the most useful. 

It wasn't expensive, and it didn't really involve instruments or vocals. I took voice over coaching. I got to spend time in a great acoustic environment talking and listening, heard myself through lots of different gear, and learned through personal experience what things sound like.

No control over the space? I would get a cardioid or hypercardioid and an ISA One. I would feel I did a lot toward improving the sound in a remote location. Plus, the preamp has a handle, and it's made really well. Bonk a standard IEC cable in the back, cable it up, go. 

If I wanted something crispier, I'd get a 1073 clone. Can sound clean, can sound haspy and thick. In this case, a "lunchbox" idea is really attractive. 

Reading posts put so many ideas in my head. Hearing and doing made all the difference in deciding what steps I should take. With any equipment I have, much of what I read turned out to be true. I just had no real understanding of its real-world meaning.


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## fakemaxwell (Jan 30, 2021)

Going to disagree with a lot of this here, to an extent. The quality of mic preamps today vs 20-30 years ago (when much of this conventional wisdom was being formed) is significantly higher. Nearly any reasonably priced interface is going to have preamps that do a great job. If you're not sure you need an external preamp, you definitely do not need one. 

Sound on Sound did a preamp shootout a while back, and the cheapest preamp they had was the highest rated- https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/preamp-post-mortem

I've used bad preamps before, and it's certainly not a great experience. However they've become harder to find, and any of the major interface manufacturers are going to have you covered. 

Please do not spend a single dollar of your money on "upgrading" your cables.


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## sostenuto (Jan 30, 2021)

Stringtree said:


> I got some lessons in a real studio with someone experienced. I heard for myself and asked a lot of questions. After burning a lot of hours on GS and other websites, this turned out to be the most useful.
> 
> It wasn't expensive, and it didn't really involve instruments or vocals. I took voice over coaching. I got to spend time in a great acoustic environment talking and listening, heard myself through lots of different gear, and learned through personal experience what things sound like.
> 
> ...


ISA One has long been of interest. Hoping Shure Beta 87A combo would be good choice. Portability is not requirement, but Lunchbox or Desktop is a bit better than Rackmount. Any can work though and will revisit 1073 clones before purchase .... _Warm Audio TB12 Tonebeast Microphone Preamp_ ?

Regards


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## Stringtree (Jan 30, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> ISA One has long been of interest. Hoping Shure Beta 87A combo would be good choice. Portability is not requirement, but Lunchbox or Desktop is a bit better than Rackmount. Any can work though and will revisit 1073 clones before purchase .... _Warm Audio TB12 Tonebeast Microphone Preamp_ ?
> 
> Regards


Warm Audio has made a name. Or knocked a few off. Then made a name.

The TB12, Sweetwater talks about it like it's cocaine. This does something to the brain. This talk. Me? I can't talk about it worth a nothing because I've never heard it or played with it. 

The allure is that it's a box. Check out your sample libraries you can buy. Download only. They're pictured in boxes. That's the way we buy things. 

I have sample libraries and other stuff I've bought in boxes. Meh. 

I've posted way too much about this stuff, but only because I have a sincere desire to help someone in the same position I was in when I didn't have any idea what I was doing.

Listen. To stuff. Lots. If you don't trust your ears, trust a person who you're pretty sure does. 

"If your mixes sound unprofessional, lacking in vibrancy and depth, you'll love the Tone Beast." Okay, cool, but I need to trust myself before I trust some blue pills I found on the Internet. If you haven't found any vibrancy and depth, it's not going to come in a box. 

API, which this purports to mimic, has certain characteristics. Everything said about it is probably true. When you hear that sound and are able to compare it to other things, you'll know what that means. Maybe that's not what you're looking for. 

Borrow, rent, schmooze, hang about. Hear for yourself, and if you can't trust your ears, find someone who knows. In person. Not on the Internet. Your second-best bet is YouTube. As a starting point.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 30, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> No hyperbole,if you use a good mic with a good pre you will understand.
> You really can’t make an informed decision by reading posts in a forum,you have to try,LISTEN and judge for yourself.


Yes.

And kgdrum is not engaging in hyperbole with his "then you need to have your ears checked" comment. I'm just far more polite and diplomatic when I voice opinions.

Stop laughing now.


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## reddognoyz (Jan 30, 2021)

a super lot, if you have hi end ones...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 30, 2021)

fakemaxwell said:


> If you're not sure you need an external preamp, you definitely do not need one.
> 
> I've used bad preamps before, and it's certainly not a great experience. However they've become harder to find, and any of the major interface manufacturers are going to have you covered.
> 
> Please do not spend a single dollar of your money on "upgrading" your cables.


You can hear a blatant difference between two *high-end* preamps just by sticking a halfway decent mic on anything remotely revealing, for example an acoustic guitar. To anyone who's tried that, this is like saying there's a difference between teal and light blue.

And anyone who wants to hear the difference between a tweak mic cable and a decent one (Canare, etc.) is welcome to come over after the pandemic and listen. Does it make enough difference to matter most of the time? No. Do I regret buying the cables 20 years ago when writing reviews of high-end audio equipment was a big part of my job? No. Would I buy them again today? Probably not. Is there room for another rhetorical question here? No.


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## Stringtree (Jan 30, 2021)

B&H gave me Kopul mic cables. Eight of 'em. I'm hooked. From a transmission line perspective there's capacitance, shielding, connector quality. 

Mmmmm. Cables.


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## Polkasound (Jan 30, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> Comprende __ but how does anyone have an honest clue where the dividing line is between what matters and what does not ??


The dividing line is different for everyone, and it will change over the years relative to one's growing experience.

Early in my recording days, I didn't know or think much about mic preamps. I just used the ones that were built into my Mackie mixer because an input was an input, right? My music was already playing on radio stations and I was selling albums, so why change? Then one day after reading about preamps, curiosity got the best of me and I bought a Grace.

Everything changed. I bought a second Grace and began researching and investing in colored preamps, and learned how to use them as tools. I didn't have to upgrade my mic preamps, but I did it for _me_. I could hear and enjoy the differences.

Internet forums discussing audio products like preamps, D/A converters, and speaker cables are filled with people so passionately hyper-attuned to their craft that they've completely forgotten what it's like to casually enjoy music as a bartender, farmer, or an accountant. The only thing the average listener cares about is how a song makes them feel. The feeling a song generates comes 99% from skill and experience (songwriting, instrumental and vocal talent, studio engineering, producing, mixing) and 1% from equipment. Somewhere in that 1% you'll find mic preamps.

I think of mic preamps as being like tires: A dirt cheap mic preamp is like a set of partially deflated, worn tires. Replace them with new tires, and a some drivers will notice the difference. An average mic preamp today is like a reliable set of all-season tires — if you upgrade them to summer performance tires, only the most experienced, attuned drivers are going to say, "I really like the tighter cornering." Everyone else is going to say, "Huh? You changed the tires?"

If one's skills at recording and mixing are lacking, a $1,500 mic preamp isn't going to do diddly-squat. [If Homer Simpson bought a book on quantum physics, would the quality of the book matter?] But if one is experienced enough to get the best out of whatever recording equipment is placed in front of them, they'll likely enjoy and employ what high-end mic preamps can do for them.


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## Stringtree (Jan 30, 2021)

Attuned. It’s like the wine analogy. Lots of words to describe the experience of something nice, but substantially untransmissible.

Dang, somebody’s gonna punch me. I mean well.


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## fakemaxwell (Jan 30, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> You can hear a blatant difference between two *high-end* preamps just by sticking a halfway decent mic on anything remotely revealing, for example an acoustic guitar. To anyone who's tried that, this is like saying there's a difference between teal and light blue.


Moving an acoustic guitar 2 millimeters is going to have a far larger effect on the sound than the preamp. 

I welcome a level-matched test of multiple preamps receiving input of the same performance. The only one I have seen so far is the SOS test I linked, which concluded that the "blatant difference" is non-existent. Absolutely willing to change my mind here with some proof beyond "well I can hear it."


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## enyawg (Jan 30, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> _Stereo_ Salt Rock Lamps plz !


I find the Himalayan Salt Rocks to be warmer!


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## enyawg (Jan 30, 2021)

Lots of good advice here. I suggest if possible to have at least one vintage (or vintage sounding) pre in your arsenal. Many of the great recordings (any style) were done with preamps manufactured from 50's-80's. I personally use in-the-box, mixed together with Neve, V72, DW Fearn, API, Crane song etc., depending on the directors or producers requirements.
Sometimes I re-amp in-the-box with my vintage outboard.

Regarding converters go for the better brands and read reviews and listen to units in studios. I use Pro Tools HD3 and also an 828 MOTU with Reaper. Both are open and transparent, which is a good start.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 30, 2021)

fakemaxwell said:


> Moving an acoustic guitar 2 millimeters is going to have a far larger effect on the sound than the preamp.
> 
> I welcome a level-matched test of multiple preamps receiving input of the same performance. The only one I have seen so far is the SOS test I linked, which concluded that the "blatant difference" is non-existent. Absolutely willing to change my mind here with some proof beyond "well I can hear it."



Don't know what to tell you other than that I promise that you and everyone else here will hear what I'm describing as plain as day (assuming your hearing is sound). Yes, level-matching is important, and Dietz has a sore throat from shouting it. Not the issue.

This is approaching the point of arguing just to be argumentative. It's silly.

I even have this contraption that Aphex sent to Recording magazine back in the day so we could hear why their preamp was worth buying:


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 30, 2021)

Since people are naming names, I will add that I and people with names I won't name once did some comparisons of several of them I won't name, including the Millennia Media solid-state one.

The consensus was unanimous. Given a choice between the others and the Millennia: "It's not like we'd hate to use the others, but why would you want to?"


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## Stringtree (Jan 30, 2021)

I've made pictures with everything from a Minox camera to an 8X10 view camera. Super 8 film to the best digital video I could afford. As technologies progressed, I tried to keep up. 

Each advance reduced noise, captured more resolution, improved color fidelity, made use of processing intelligence to correct issues with lenses, motion artifacts, mixed and low-light issues, and shutter junk.

None of the visual products are life or vision, but approximations. Things carefully, artfully staged to mimic what's seen by ordinary people with their eyes, which are attached to a phenomenal processor, the brain. 

If mic capsules are commodity items and preamps are all the same, why aren't business-minded professionals foregoing the expense and still insisting on using musty mic and preamp technologies for audio? 

In terms of the 8X10 camera, the pictures look like life itself. Not a snapshot, but a window to a world.


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## fakemaxwell (Jan 30, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> This is approaching the point of arguing just to be argumentative. It's silly.


What? How is this being silly? Your evidence is writing "it was a unanimous consensus on a test I did." The point of all of this is to record audio, so it should be exceedingly easy to provide examples that you or somebody else has created. Where are the results?

To be clear- I'm not saying that mic preamps don't matter in an absolute sense. "Anything more than Behringer preamps from the 90s is a waste of money" is not my stance. Same goes for cables- if it's so obvious that cables make a difference, you should be able to easily show that, with audio files. Speakers and speaker wire are where it gets complicated, as you can't really record a speaker, but preamps/convertors/cables? No pettiness here, show me what you got.


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## Polkasound (Jan 30, 2021)

fakemaxwell said:


> Where are the results? ... show me what you got.


Everyone has their opinion on what defines _blatant_ or _obvious_. A difference in mic preamps, which might be completely indistinguishable to a truck driver or yoga instructor, might be apparent to some audio engineers or even considered blatantly obvious by some with highly trained ears. For this reason, I don't understand why one can't simply take Nick at his word. I believe he ran the test and the results came out exactly as he described them.

Several years ago after wading through all the petty arguments on the internet, I decided to do my own "do mic cables make a difference?" test in my studio. I recorded different instruments at different volumes using both high-end and cheap mic cables, and the result... I couldn't hear the slightest difference at all. I suppose I could have tricked my brain into hearing a difference, but that would have been dishonest, and my goal was to get to the truth. So to this day, I don't splurge on expensive cables.

But my truth is not going to be the same as someone else's truth. Maybe someone with exceptionally sharp ears, under different conditions and using different equipment, really can hear a difference in mic cables. Or maybe they've tricked their mind into hearing a difference that's beyond the physical scope of human hearing. The point is that they have their truth just as I have my truth and you have your truth. I think it would behoove all of us in the audio recording industry to learn how to accept and respect each other's truths as opinions.


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## kgdrum (Jan 30, 2021)

I try to avoid discussions like this especially if it relates to cables,preamps etc.....because the total polarization of opinions out there is like Washington DC in the Audio World!
I worked in one of the highest High-end Hi Fi stores for almost 11 years, it was world renowned.
We had everything from pedestrian systems to stereos that would literally sell for $500,000. Top tier speakers sold for $180,000 (Focal Grand Utopias).
Speaker cables could retail for $10k,Dacs for $30k.
Some of it was bullshit but some of it is startling real.

We had the space and the resources to be able to change cables at any time (as well as individual components in the systems)
So I’m talking preamps,power amps speaker cables,interconnects,power cables and yes even digital cables,and CD players. 

Many skeptics will dismiss it as ,snake oil,trickery,marketing etc........
But I can honestly tell you the difference in changing a cable or a cord or another component in a system can be astonishing especially if you’re working with really good equippment.
I'm not an electrical engineer when it comes to cables I suspect some of it is resistance and some cables just work better than others with particular equipment combinations.
We sold some very expensive highly respected cables that I hated ,some stuff that wasn’t nearly as pricy or regarded as top tier to my ears would sound better.
But I can honestly say if I did a demo to show the most skeptical clients different cable combinations i won over probably 90% of the customers.
They were flabbergasted 😮
Years ago when I was new here there was a gentleman who was a well respected member here at VI-C who had a publishing company that passed away,I forget his name,the company was Alexander Publishing.
He was trying to get me to do something online dealing with this subject,I declined because i don’t think you can prove this or change someone’s mind especially if they’re biased using an online environment,there’s too many variables.
So my feeling is people that think ,preamps,cables are all the same will still think that if you try to show them with audio examples online.
So why bother?


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## ryans (Jan 31, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> To anyone who's tried that, this is like saying there's a difference between teal and light blue.


Even though I am partially colourblind, that is a great analogy.

I tend to tread very carefully in these kinds of discussions as I have found over the years that many people get REALLY upset when you can hear something that they don't.

In my experience preamps make a huge difference. When you get to the high-end perhaps not so much in terms of better/worse but just different sonic flavours.

Preamp quality can matter almost as much as mic quality in my opinion.


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## pmountford (Jan 31, 2021)

Just want to thank @Nick Batzdorf for the kind invite to your studio which I'd love to take up post covid. I'm based in the Midlands, UK. Nick, just wondered how long the drive will take?

I absolutely accept some will hear more than others which makes this topic subjective. And I find it hard to accept that all of this high end equipment exists but offers no benefit. So I'm here to ask so I can consider other people's feedback, most will be far more experienced than mine.

So, working on the premise that there can be a difference in using high-end equipment, what constitutes 'high end'. Are we talking £200, £500 or £1000 per pre amp? Are you talking Grace Design, isa one, warm audio (neve design), millennia... all around £500 - £1000 per channel? Can any rme, audient, aud apollo interfaces get included as high-end?


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## GtrString (Jan 31, 2021)

Once you put a recorded track in context of a mix, after daw processing, the preamp mojo factor is reduced a lot.

If you just can record a solid and noiseless sound into your daw, you can sculpt it most anyway you’d like.

So what matters? The convenience of sculpting your sound before recording, or the convenience of sculpting your sound after recording.

In the end, this should not matter creatively. Record with what you have or like, try get a solid and noise free sound, do the work and put it out.

No matter how you did it, there is always a thousand people that will change your lightbulb, after the fact. But the admireable work and what will be acknowledged is the fact that you created something, not how you did it.


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## pmountford (Jan 31, 2021)

GtrString said:


> If you just can record a solid and noiseless sound into your daw, you can sculpt it most anyway you’d like.


Absolutely agree. And that I accept.

Its just recording solo strings I want to make sure that I'm capturing the timbre as well as I can and see if there is a weak part in the signal chain which is preventing me capturing a better sound. I've heard professional studios record a cellist I work with and it's just not captured the tone of the instrument (fine for rock songs with a string backing but I'm after a exposed sound). Recordings I've done previously too have been sub par. I'm not going to get an Abbey Road sound, but I'm sure I can do better than what I currently have so far, which was why I initially raised the question of how effective pre amps are. I'm aware of the importance of mic placement, recording space, mic choice, player's technique, their instruments etc when recording strings which may in the end still be the factors that are preventing me from getting a better sound, but wanted to address the mic pres/interface if this is the sticking point?

I hope that makes sense?


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## AudioLoco (Jan 31, 2021)

Anyone not sure, or wanting to get a confirmation of their own point of view, don't ask others to convince you:
Rent a studio near you for one hour, should be very cheap (unfortunately for studios these days the rates are going down everywhere) and ask to do a preamp test - bring your own reference "good enough" preamp to compare and your instrument of choice. If you still think it is not enough of a difference, it means for you it is not enough of a difference so you don't have to buy any preamps and use what you got. Happy times!

As we are speaking on VI CONTROL: Does anybody believe that any of the amazing sample libraries by the big guns are recorded with Behringer preamps or just sub incredible tier preamp?? They wouldn't compromise especially on such demanding tasks as sample recording of super dynamic material. It is a crucial part of the recording chain and I understand it's not an obvious difference right away...

I am not going to get into cables. There is a debate about that and it's a bloody war out there  I am in the "enough if the connector is decent" camp, for ME it's unecessary to spend thousands on cables. Some do swear by it, what can I do?


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## sostenuto (Jan 31, 2021)

pmountford said:


> Just want to thank @Nick Batzdorf for the kind invite to your studio which I'd love to take up post covid. I'm based in the Midlands, UK. Nick, just wondered how long the drive will take?
> 
> I absolutely accept some will hear more than others which makes this topic subjective. And I find it hard to accept that all of this high end equipment exists but offers no benefit. So I'm here to ask so I can consider other people's feedback, most will be far more experienced than mine.
> 
> So, working on the premise that there can be a difference in using high-end equipment, what constitutes 'high end'. Are we talking £200, £500 or £1000 per pre amp? Are you talking Grace Design, isa one, warm audio (neve design), millennia... all around £500 - £1000 per channel? Can any rme, audient, aud apollo interfaces get included as high-end?


@ pmountford ... THX for this .... states much of personal concern.

Seasoned ears (_not damaged_) ears surely miss subtleties many here deal with daily. Yet I desire to make routine system upgrades to improve various weak-links. These upgrades will almost always be incremental changes, not in higher cost ranges often mentioned.

Frustrating to believe that most here would consider this incrementalism a serious waste. Yet I accept this may be the case.


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## Tim_Wells (Jan 31, 2021)

It's pretty insulting have people on here question your hearing. No one claimed they couldn't hear a difference. The question was whether it was worth it. 

What if we started accusing people of audio confirmation bias who think hi-end pre-amps make a "huge difference".

The OP asked for opinions and I gave mine from the perspective of a small project studio. I'm done with this thread.


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## fakemaxwell (Jan 31, 2021)

Yeah this is ridiculous. It's the same old song and dance every time this topic comes up. The entire medium is about RECORDING, and yet nobody will record proof of what their very special ears can hear that nobody else can. I assure you: most of us can hear the minute difference in preamps, and that isn't the problem here. 

They are so far down the chain of having an effect on the sound for 99% of applications that preamps for a budget conscious studio should be selected after spending the bulk of the budget on the room, speakers, and microphones. 

@pmountford- Any of the preamps in interfaces from RME, UA, Focusrite (Clarett), or Motu are going to work perfectly for you (and pretty much everybody else too).


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## pmountford (Jan 31, 2021)

fakemaxwell said:


> Any of the preamps in interfaces from RME, UA, Focusrite (Clarett), or Motu are going to work perfectly for you (and pretty much everybody else too).


That's great to hear. And thank you all for your contributions.


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## sostenuto (Jan 31, 2021)

Don't doubt, dispute RME, UA Focusrite (Clarett), or Motu 'Preamp' capability. What I posted earlier, and in another similar, helpful Thread, was personal frustration over not being able to compare/contrast I/F specs with individual component specs.

No issue whatsoever with I/F approach, and DAW #1 has conventional setup with (2) Focusrite Saffire Pro 14 I/F(s). 
DAW #2, chose to go with Headphone Amp and Mic Preamp. Budget constraints emphasized Headphone path, and modest Mic path. To spend $900. now on RME Babyface Pro FS, to upgrade Rode AI-1 Preamp is less desirable than same investment in new Mic Preamp.

Concerns are personal and narrow, yet prefer that I/F makers provide specs which can be contrasted with dedicated Preamp specs. I may well be at fault here, and will be grateful if some comparisons can be offered. Just looked carefully of two specifics: RME & Rode AI 1. Cannot sort relevant info. Also cannot compare with target, new Preamps.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 31, 2021)

fakemaxwell said:


> They are so far down the chain of having an effect on the sound for 99% of applications that preamps for a budget conscious studio should be selected after spending the bulk of the budget on the room, speakers, and microphones.
> 
> @pmountford- Any of the preamps in interfaces from RME, UA, Focusrite (Clarett), or Motu are going to work perfectly for you (and pretty much everybody else too).



pmountford started by saying he's recording solo strings with good mics, and he asked whether his interface and preamps are up to the job. Are they?

You say yes, for everyone.

Okay. I say I'm glad I invested in a good one.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 31, 2021)

pmountford said:


> Just want to thank @Nick Batzdorf for the kind invite to your studio which I'd love to take up post covid. I'm based in the Midlands, UK. Nick, just wondered how long the drive will take?



Not long.


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## AnhrithmonGelasma (Feb 6, 2021)

What if you're using a USB powered interface with a laptop and a condenser microphone? I was reading that the USB interface might not provide enough phantom power for the condenser, especially on a laptop? Would that be true for Audient iD4 / Focusrite Scarlett 3rd gen / Focusrite Clarett? Does that make a (non-USB powered) preamp more useful?


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## AudioLoco (Feb 7, 2021)

AnhrithmonGelasma said:


> What if you're using a USB powered interface with a laptop and a condenser microphone? I was reading that the USB interface might not provide enough phantom power for the condenser, especially on a laptop? Would that be true for Audient iD4 / Focusrite Scarlett 3rd gen / Focusrite Clarett? Does that make a (non-USB powered) preamp more useful?


Phantom power is 48v. If it is provided, it is provided in full. Some USB powered interfaces have no problem doing that. It's on the spec list of each interface.


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## chrisr (Feb 7, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> Phantom power is 48v. If it is provided, it is provided in full. Some USB powered interfaces have no problem doing that. It's on the spec list of each interface.


This is correct in reference to the post it was answering - you're not going to find anything other than 48v in a soundcard / modern interface. Just worth mentioning for anyone reading these pages for educational reasons that although 48v is now a well established standard, that you can find gear with a range of other voltage requirements.


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## AnhrithmonGelasma (Feb 7, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> Phantom power is 48v. If it is provided, it is provided in full. Some USB powered interfaces have no problem doing that. It's on the spec list of each interface.



These are just Gearslutz posts, so I have no idea if they're accurate:

"A computer USB port is strictly "power limited" by the USB standard. [...] The computer will switch to current-limiting if the external device (the interface) tries to draw more than 500 mA. That's only 2.5 watts of power (total) available for *all* functions of the interface. [...]

Because of the severe power constraints of USB bus powering, the headphone outputs, and often the phantom mic power (mic current capability) are limited to power levels that are far less than ideal.

[...]

Even with the USB power limitations, there are a_ few_ bus-powered interfaces that actually work pretty well. The Sound Devices USB Pre2, the Apogee Duet-2, and the http://www.rme-audio.de/en_products_babyface.php (RME)Babyfaceall sound great and the SD USB Pre2 has a decent headphone output. By using custom designed integrated circuits (instead of "off-the -shelf" parts) better engineering, and higher-quality components, those companies are able to make fairly good performing interfaces within the USB bus-power limitations."









Pros and Cons of USB Bus Powered vs Power Adapter - Gearspace.com


Complete newbie question here. Was just wondering if each of these had pros and cons on a audio interface: USB 2.0 bus powered vs USB 2.0 run by a powe



www.gearslutz.com





"Most of the posts people make with their phantom powered interfaces involve problems powering mics. Fact is you simply aren't going to get enough power (voltage+current) [with USB] to power many mics that require 48V. Some may have preamp circuits that will allow operation down to maybe 12v which is likely all these phantom powered interfaces can provide. At least with a wall wart the current can be much higher and you can trade off allot more of that current for higher voltages many condenser mics require to operate the most efficiently.

[...] Of course the manufacturer isn't going to bother telling you their interface sucks when it comes to providing enough power to run your mic too. They go down that path and they'd have to document the power specs of all the different mics manufacturers. They don't even warn you about the differences between desktops and laptops. Laptops have settings which conserve power and things like USB port power throttling only makes the phantom power even more problematic, especially if you don't know how to optimize a computer and override those settings."









Pros and Cons of USB Bus Powered vs Power Adapter - Gearspace.com


Complete newbie question here. Was just wondering if each of these had pros and cons on a audio interface: USB 2.0 bus powered vs USB 2.0 run by a powe



www.gearslutz.com





... these convinced me to snatch up what I assumed was a good deal on a used external preamp on eBay to go with the Scarlett Solo 3rd gen I was planning on getting for my laptop, even though 3rd gen is USB-C and provides more power than USB 2. Though now I'm thinking I'll spend an extra $80 for the Audient iD4 MKII (also USB-C) instead of Scarlett. But I'm wondering if buying the preamp was a mistake... even used and discounted it cost about as much as both interfaces would combined. Does provide a little bit of tube saturation though (Art Pro MPA II), whereas Audient is clean gain, so I guess there won't be any issue adding gain from both at once....


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## Stringtree (Feb 7, 2021)

The Neumann U87 consumes .8 mA. The AKG 414 XLS wants 4.5 mA, on account of its LED components. 

As far as voltage conversion, hiking 5VDC to 48VDC is pretty efficient. The only time I ran into a problem with a USB-powered interface was when the cable was a little too long.


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## easyrider (Feb 8, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> No hyperbole,if you use a good mic with a good pre you will understand.
> You really can’t make an informed decision by reading posts in a forum,you have to try,LISTEN and judge for yourself.


The whole thread is based on this....everyone hears things differently...You have to listen for yourself....

Cheap preamps tend to lead to noise and hiss as you increase the gain....this is a fact...

I had a 10 input Roland Octa capture few years back....it was decent...very clean preamps...but they were noisy .....sold it....

Swapped it out for an Audient ID22 and an ASP 880....result was a different league in audio quality...

More options with impedance switching and more headroom....









Overview - Audient







audient.com





But like said there are more important factors than the Mic Preamp, like the performance and placement of the mic ...

Investing in different microphones will always get you further with your recordings over just the preamps....

Recording an Acoustic Guitar comparing an SM57 and Octava M012

Here


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## pmountford (Feb 15, 2021)

Went the MOTU828es route in the end. This gives me 2 clean mic pres which seem to have plenty of gain left over when driving the ribbons which is great.

I tracked some vocals yesterday and I'm happy. 

I was less pleased with recording of the cello though. Certainly more gain, clearer sound, but I'm hankering after a warmer sound. Too bright/harsh. Maybe mic placement (2 foot away) and room sound aren't helping. Would you suggest a mic pre or in the box processing?

I know I started this thread saying I wanted a clean mic pre but maybe now I could do with some colouring perhaps? Is this best done by the mic pre? In which case I may be looking for a dual mic pre sub $1000.

Would a Neve clone like Warm Audio WA273 help?


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## easyrider (Feb 15, 2021)

pmountford said:


> Went the MOTU828es route in the end. This gives me 2 clean mic pres which seem to have plenty of gain left over when driving the ribbons which is great.
> 
> I tracked some vocals yesterday and I'm happy.
> 
> ...


Have you thought about going the 500 rack route? This allows you to get into decent mic preamps at a lower cost....










Rupert Neve Designs 511


Microphone Preamplifier 1 Channel Mic preaamp with 500 Module formfactor, +48V Phantom power can switched On and Off, 8 Segment LED Level-Meter, High Pass Filter can be set, 20 - 250 Hz, Trim and Gain-Control, Polarity is reversible/can be...




www.thomann.de













Midas Legend L6


6-Slot Rack Frame for 500 modules Low noise power supply with 3.2 A @ ± 16 V and 300 mA @ +48 V, Designed and developed in U.K.




www.thomann.de


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## pmountford (Feb 15, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Have you thought about going the 500 rack route


Thanks for this. No I hadn't but will consider now.


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## Stringtree (Feb 15, 2021)

I got a used API lunchbox frame for $300. New, they're more than $600! 

You have a lot of choices for preamps in the 500 series. Not only that, but there's so much candy you can put in the 500 series frame. Check vintage king or sweetwater for all the delicious options. Some plugins are double-wide, like the Shadow Hills Dual Vandergraph. 

It's quite addictive. But a lot of great stuff shows up on Ebay. Three slots, you could have compression on the way in, may a de-esser, an eq.... Up to you!


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## Bernard Duc (Feb 15, 2021)

pmountford said:


> Went the MOTU828es route in the end. This gives me 2 clean mic pres which seem to have plenty of gain left over when driving the ribbons which is great.
> 
> I tracked some vocals yesterday and I'm happy.
> 
> ...


Even a Neve preamp won't colour the sound that much unless you drive it really hard. If you think the sound is too harsh and you can't change the instrument, then experiment more with the placement and with the microphone choice. A different microphone will have much more impact on the sound than the preamp, especially if your goal is to tame some of the highs. But be careful, different microphones will react differently to different sources, and a "warmer" microphone might still sound harsh on your cello. You should also try EQing what you've got and see if you like the result. Doing so will also help you analyze what it is you don't like with your current sound and what kind of additional gear / plugin might help you.

Check this video starting at 1:24, they test different microphones on a solo cello. If you're like me you will definitely want to buy an AKG C12 after listening to that... until you see how much they cost!


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## pmountford (Feb 15, 2021)

Bernard Duc said:


> If you're like me you will definitely want to buy an AKG C12 after listening to that... until you see how much they cost!



Great video - I'm not a cellist but all 3 seemed to capture the sound well to my ears, although, like you implied, the C12 was best.


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## bill5 (Feb 15, 2021)

pmountford said:


> Edit: I've just changed the title of this thread to be a little broader.
> 
> I'm asking how important the audio interface and mic pres are when recording nowadays? Have interfaces got the to point where it doesn't matter that much?


IMO pretty much, though it may vary a little with specifics (and desired features). Tech is so good now, even so-called low-end units are better than top-dollar units of not that many years ago. IMO you're highly unlikely to notice much if any diff from your 404 even if you spend several times over that much on something else.

As for importance, the rule of thumb I've heard and follow and believe in, though I have no hard proof of it, is the closer to the audio source, the more important it is. So mics > pres/interface > speakers.


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## IsacVries (Feb 18, 2021)

Hi...if you're recording through Guitar interfaces then sure you may want to get a straight audio interface for vocals. I wouldn't go spending 2K on one and an additional preamp simply isn't warranted. Most interfaces have preamps which are ideal for their converters built right in. You'd need to push them a long time to even begin to know if they are bottle necking your sound before you'd want to explore an improvement.

order pcb


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