# What are the tips and tricks to make a piano arpeggio to sound fluid and more realistic in a midi part?



## HarmonyCore (Apr 25, 2020)

I am talking Cubase 10 here so other than the Legato function (in midi functions), what other ways to make your piano midi part to sound authentic and realistic? ... I don't know if it's just me but I do think quantization is the arpeggio's biggest enemy. Whenever I use quantize with a piano part, everything is screwed and a mess. I said arpeggio specifically because it's very grid-sensitive and tricky.

Block chords is a walk in a park but I am still having hard time getting an arpeggio (be it piano or even a guitar) sound right every time I compose something. 

What would be your suggestions?


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## Patryk Scelina (Apr 25, 2020)

Do You find this realistic enough ?


There are no fancy tricks here. It's just performed on MIDI controller and recorded.


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 25, 2020)

Patryk Scelina said:


> Do You find this realistic enough ?
> 
> 
> There are no fancy tricks here. It's just performed on MIDI controller and recorded.




Well, the problem is that I am not that good piano player. Playing good at the piano is definitely the most rewarding attribute when it comes to recording as well as stage performance indeed. But my concern is for bad piano players who need technical ways to edit and fix their recorded parts, so unfortunately you haven't answered my question yet by just showing me this video. 

But thx anyways ...


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## Patryk Scelina (Apr 25, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> Well, the problem is that I am not that good piano player. Playing good at the piano is definitely the most rewarding attribute when it comes to recording as well as stage performance indeed. But my concern is for bad piano players who need technical ways to edit and fix their recorded parts, so unfortunately you haven't answered my question yet by just showing me this video.
> 
> But thx anyways ...


Oh I see.

So in that case I'd recommend first of all analysing piano performances which are similar to what you try to achieve from sound perspective. Dynamics, feeling and timing variations. That is what I do all the time trying to create believable parts for strings, brass and woodwinds which I can't play at all.

I'm not sure how well you know Cubase so this can be too obvious to mention, but maybe not.
You can use Logical Editor to randomise notes velocity, length and position on the grid which will help a lot to get more realistic performance. But as you know I'm sure, real performance isn't totally random.

So I would start from shaping note dynamics accordingly to what it be when played live. Simulate emotion changes by changing note velocity by hand and then add some randomisation with Logical Editor. You should also consider changing tempo slightly to give performance some air. No human plays perfectly in time.
So these are some principals I tend to use when I program any lines not only piano.
I'm not sure if this is helpful in any way to you.


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 25, 2020)

Patryk Scelina said:


> You can use Logical Editor to randomise notes velocity, length and position on the grid which will help a lot to get more realistic performance.



Cool, will try that one.


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 25, 2020)

Patryk Scelina said:


> I'm not sure if this is helpful in any way to you.



Absolutely, thank you


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## Montisquirrel (Apr 25, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> Well, the problem is that I am not that good piano player. Playing good at the piano is definitely the most rewarding attribute when it comes to recording as well as stage performance indeed. But my concern is for bad piano players who need technical ways to edit and fix their recorded parts, so unfortunately you haven't answered my question yet by just showing me this video.
> 
> But thx anyways ...



Sorry for an unpopular opinion, but why bother with endless frustration in midi fixing while in the same time you can improve to play the piano. Not like a Virtuose, but enough for some arpeggios. 
It's fun, it's rewarding and it will help you with your future productions.


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 25, 2020)

Montisquirrel said:


> Sorry for an unpopular opinion, but why bother with endless frustration in midi fixing while in the same time you can improve to play the piano. Not like a Virtuose, but enough for some arpeggios.
> It's fun, it's rewarding and it will help you with your future productions.



I can play piano decently but my timing just sucks when recording. So, rather than going note by note in the key editor I am trying to find a way to affect all notes at the same time. Think of it like a script that copies all your files started with "ch" into a folder called "Chords".


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## Marko Dvojkovic (Apr 25, 2020)

I agree with what guys mentioned above, I generally actually think that spending way too much time on editing a performance is a waste of time in the end because you can spend it on practicing the piano which is very rewarding in the long run and it adds up while by editing you don't improve at anything actually but as said being a virtuoso is really not necessary, that is again another extreme. Practice always with a metronome even if you will perform and record it without. And when talking about useful piano techniques for playing various virtual instruments via keyboard controller I think that it is very useful to learn to roll chords if you know what I mean. It is very idiomatic style of playing for (aside from piano) harp, celeste and guitar instruments (those came from the top of my mind). And the good thing with all the "percussive" samples is that you can slow it down to whatever speed to record it comfortably and it doesn't get messed up when sped up then, unlike for example if you do a fast legato run and then when you speed it up it doesn't work since all the true legato transitions are the same length in absolute time.


HarmonyCore said:


> I can play piano decently but my timing just sucks when recording


Hm, maybe you have some latency problems? Try to optimise your system for lowest latency possible when playing the parts in


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## Lassi Tani (Apr 25, 2020)

More fluid, hmm.. pour some yogurt into your piano and voila! More fluid arpeggios. Hope this helps!


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 25, 2020)

sekkosiki said:


> More fluid, hmm.. pour some yogurt into your piano and voila! More fluid arpeggios. Hope this helps!



Are you a musician or comedian exactly?


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## ProfoundSilence (Apr 25, 2020)

something I do from time to time is play it in how I feel it should be, and then depending on the DAW, i'll turn off "tempo based" on the midi item, THEN i'll grab the grid and stretch the measures/down beats so it lines up with what I played, set the item back to tempo based then delete the tempo data.


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 25, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> something I do from time to time is play it in how I feel it should be, and then depending on the DAW, i'll turn off "tempo based" on the midi item, THEN i'll grab the grid and stretch the measures/down beats so it lines up with what I played, set the item back to tempo based then delete the tempo data.



Interesting. Can you share the detailed steps of how you do that?


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## youngpokie (Apr 25, 2020)

How fast is your arpeggio? Also, what are the overall dynamics in the piece at the time of the arpeggio (crescendo/diminuendo)?


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## mikeh-375 (Apr 25, 2020)

....can't you just play it in with a slow bpm and then playback at the correct speed, unquantised? Other than that, practise for 30mins each day, playing basic exercises to a metronome as Marko says above, it'll do you the world of good.


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 25, 2020)

youngpokie said:


> How fast is your arpeggio? Also, what are the overall dynamics in the piece at the time of the arpeggio (crescendo/diminuendo)?



I can play arp confidently on 100 bpm, not more.


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## youngpokie (Apr 25, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> I can play arp confidently on 100 bpm, not more.



It's not a question about your ability but rather the role the arpeggio is playing in your piece, so tempo and dynamics are indicative of how to deal with it.


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## bryla (Apr 25, 2020)

Why not quantize? I would do it any time to fix things. Also my suggestion is to program sustain pedal to cover an arpeggio. I wouldn't randomize velocity as much as I would differentiate velocity. Highest note in an arpeggio gets louder velocity than the rest. Notes leading up to that gets a little crescendo.

Maybe if pedal is not wanted you can still play with extending the bottom note or accented notes to create a pad of glue.

And as you said: If you can play in 100BPM then lower your project tempo and play it in. MIDI will adapt to tempo changes.


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 25, 2020)

youngpokie said:


> It's not a question about your ability but rather the role the arpeggio is playing in your piece, so tempo and dynamics are indicative of how to deal with it.



It's the normal arp that is played at the intro of any trailer or commercial piece basically at 120 bpm


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 25, 2020)

OK great answers everyone.
Thanks for your time.


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## Fry777 (Apr 25, 2020)

As said above, the use of sustain pedal can give a smoother sound.
Also if 120 bpm is too fast, divide your tempo by two, play your part in at 60, once done change the tempo back to 120


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## ProfoundSilence (Apr 25, 2020)

this'll probably take a little to upload, but it's a few examples of what I mean. Havent used the process in a while on reaper, so im not super quick at it here(its slightly easier in Cubase to do this) but that's what I'd use for fast runs/arpeggios that you can't play.


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## devonmyles (Apr 25, 2020)

Bass (professionally) was my first instrument, not Piano. I'm getting better at Piano all the time, so recently I have been playing everything in as best as I can, bum notes, loose timing and all. That way, dynamics, velocities etc, give me a decent performance (even at times, slowing down the tempo first with input quantise off). It's then easier to clean up a decent performance, rather than sculpt out a PRV performance. Not the answer the OP was looking for, so my apologies but, I agree with others; practise will get you the best results in my opinion.

By just practising around 30 minutes most days, these past few months, I have come on leaps and bounds. I'm also having great fun, plus find it rewarding listening to and transcribing stuff from one of my favourite Piano players and an excellent composer, Dave Grusin. I've picked up a ton of useful Piano and Synth playing tips.


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 25, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> this'll probably take a little to upload, but it's a few examples of what I mean. Havent used the process in a while on reaper, so im not super quick at it here(its slightly easier in Cubase to do this) but that's what I'd use for fast runs/arpeggios that you can't play.



Appreciate your efforts, ProfoundSilence 

EDIT: That was a very illustrative video PS, thank you so much.


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 25, 2020)

devonmyles said:


> Not the answer the OP was looking for, so my apologies



At least you took the time to answer and I thank you for that.


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## AllanH (Apr 25, 2020)

For arpeggios , I pretty much always quantize as the objective for an arpeggio generally is to provide some level of rhythmic support in addition to traversing the harmony. You can always add a bit of random midi offsets to make it seem less robotic. You can do the same for velociy, which can be helpful if the arpeggio is "drawn in". This actually works well and is a native feature of midi in Cubase.


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## SupremeFist (Apr 25, 2020)

In most cases (absent special accents), the inner notes of an arpeggio will be played more softly than the outer ones, so programming that may get you a better result than simply randomising velocities.


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## Nils Neumann (Apr 25, 2020)

Marko Dvojkovic said:


> I agree with what guys mentioned above, I generally actually think that spending way too much time on editing a performance is a waste of time in the end because you can spend it on practicing the piano which is very rewarding in the long run and it adds up while by editing you don't improve at anything actually but as said being a virtuoso is really not necessary, that is again another extreme.



While I share the sentiment that it is always helpful to play and practice an instrument and I still need to meet somebody who loves editing performances... doesn't matter if it's audio or midi.

But to say that you don't improve in editing is just not correct and romanticizes the playing part a bit too much?

Cause I know that the countless hours I spend on editing midi definitely improved my skills in a lot of areas, and by that I also mean what it takes to create a realistic performance. 
Oh boy, am I way more effective at that now than when I was starting out.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Apr 25, 2020)

You might want to look into this. It comes out May 27th.


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## Lassi Tani (Apr 25, 2020)

HarmonyCore said:


> Are you a musician or comedian exactly?



Sorry tried to be funny, and not really helpful. Fortunately you got great answers, I learned a lot too, so thanks for asking the question!


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 25, 2020)

TigerTheFrog said:


> You might want to look into this. It comes out May 27th.




I believe the advancing tech in this industry will make most composers finish pieces with the least effort spent. Great tool, looking forward to see its detailed walkthroughs.


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## HarmonyCore (Apr 25, 2020)

sekkosiki said:


> Sorry tried to be funny, and not really helpful. Fortunately you got great answers, I learned a lot too, so thanks for asking the question!



No harm done.
Yes, I agree. You always see great people with great answers here. This makes this forum GOLD on the web.


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## Marko Dvojkovic (Apr 25, 2020)

Nils Neumann said:


> While I share the sentiment that it is always helpful to play and practice an instrument and I still need to meet somebody who loves editing performances... doesn't matter if it's audio or midi.
> 
> But to say that you don't improve in editing is just not correct and romanticizes the playing part a bit too much?
> 
> ...


Hey Nils! Yeah I understand that how I stated it could be perceived a little exaggerated but you get the point.


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## Nils Neumann (Apr 25, 2020)

Marko Dvojkovic said:


> Hey Nils! Yeah I understand that how I stated it could be perceived a little exaggerated but you get the point.


Just wanted to point out that there is something to learn in that process as well


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