# VSL Clarinet?!



## YoungComposer (Aug 12, 2012)

Hi,

I'm trying to get my VSL Standard SE Coarisnt to sound real and not shrug but I seem to be having trouble. I have heard it sound amazing from other composers, so I know it can be done I'm just mixing wrong.

How should I mix this? Currently I'm using EWQL Spaces, and IK Comporessor/EQ but I don't know what I'm doing? Does it need a high/low pass? More reverb?anything else?


----------



## Daryl (Aug 12, 2012)

Post an example please. It will never sound real, but there may be some things you can do to improve things. I highly doubt that it has anything to do with EQ, reverb or compression though. :wink: 

D


----------



## dog1978 (Aug 12, 2012)

For the VSL I take Altiverb and the Todd-AO Scoring Stage and the Berlin Teldex Studio. The sounds start living.


----------



## YoungComposer (Aug 12, 2012)

http://soundcloud.com/benjamingoldmanmu ... edy-quirky

It just doesn't sound good to me at all....maybe cause I play clarinet....
But still, I have heard others use VSL clarinet and it sounds pretty decent. Mine ont eh other hand..


----------



## Daryl (Aug 13, 2012)

YoungComposer @ Mon Aug 13 said:


> http://soundcloud.com/benjamingoldmanmusic/family-comedy-quirky
> 
> It just doesn't sound good to me at all....maybe cause I play clarinet....
> But still, I have heard others use VSL clarinet and it sounds pretty decent. Mine ont eh other hand..


Without meaning to be rude, nothing in that demo sounds good. The mix needs a lot of work, and when you've done that it will expose the weaknesses of the programming.

You play the Clarinet, so the best thing for you to do is to record yourself playing that theme, and then A/B it with your programming. The differences should be obvious. Then you can decide what to fix, or even what can be fixed. Once you have completed that process, go through the rest off the instruments one at a time and treat them to the same level of detail.

Having done that, you can start thinking about placement and reverb, and possibly some EQ. Racing to the mix is not the best way to proceed, when the "performances" need so much work.

Good luck!

D


----------



## Bernard Quatermass (Aug 13, 2012)

The music is good. You have let it distort in places and the reverb makes it sound like it's coming from a bathroom in the house next door.


----------



## FredrikJonasson (Aug 13, 2012)

Daryl @ Mon Aug 13 said:


> You play the Clarinet, so the best thing for you to do is to record yourself playing that theme, and then A/B it with your programming. The differences should be obvious. Then you can decide what to fix, or even what can be fixed. Once you have completed that process, go through the rest off the instruments one at a time and treat them to the same level of detail.
> 
> Having done that, you can start thinking about placement and reverb, and possibly some EQ. Racing to the mix is not the best way to proceed, when the "performances" need so much work.


I think the mixing is the big one here. Or at least, the reverb setting makes it hard to hear the performance at all. Bernard, you are using the legato and not sustains, right?

Especially the woodwinds needs some work. I would say you have to do some heavy cutting with the eq, mostly in the middle frequencies. I've been surprised how much one can shape the distance of the instrument just with eq. And right now it sounds like you have too much reverb, but I believe you would come away easier with that with more use of the eq. When I used the VSL clarinet last time I set up a send/bus (vienna hybrid reverb) and took out the dry signal completely in a hall preset. The clarinet isn't in front at all here, but in any case: http://soundcloud.com/fredrik-jonasson/fredrik-jonasson-a-path-in-the


----------



## YoungComposer (Aug 13, 2012)

I did this rather quickly with no attention to compo/mix or anything else for that matter. I was just trying to record something that showed the clarinet.

I understand what you are saying about the composition and programming element to making it sound better, however even when i pay just one note and nothing else, it doesn't sound right to me. So those two aspects wouldn't be an issue.

Not sure why it doesn't sound right when paying a sustained whole note....


----------



## Daryl (Aug 13, 2012)

Well post something totally dry and let's hear what it is that is bothering you. I can't really tell from your example, because it all bothers me. :wink: 

D


----------



## YoungComposer (Aug 15, 2012)

Here's a demo of the Legato Dry, With Reverb (QL Spaces), and the sustain with verb.

It just sounds very airy to me and not a clear sound.

http://soundcloud.com/benjamingoldmanmu ... net-test-1


----------



## re-peat (Aug 15, 2012)

Benjamin,

One of the big differences between sound recorded from up close and sound recorded from afar, is a distinct difference in low frequency content (and high frequency content as well, thought that's not the issue here). The closer the microphone, the more low end it picks up, often even amplifying it (the so-called "proximity effect").
Now, the Vienna solo instruments are all recorded from quite nearby (and have, as a consequence, a rather full and 'big' sonic presence), so anytime you want to make those instruments appear as if they come from some distance, you need to do more than simply add reverb to them: you first have to thin out their sound a little bit (remove the 'closeness' as it were).

In your last example, it's obvious that you're simply adding reverb to a closely-recorded sound, and the result sounds therefore quite wrong and unconvincing: not only does the source signal sound much too full (when considering the distance that is suggested by the reverb which you used), but the reverb you end up with is also the reverb of a signal that never could sound like it does if it were actually recorded at the spot which this type and size of reverb suggests. Put differently: the reverb also reverberates the low end of the source (low end which shouldn't be there in the first place) and not only does that give you an unrealistic reverb, it's also a very muddy and boomy reverb. (This is not QL Spaces' fault, it's your fault having failed to thin out the signal before reverberating it.)

So, all this to say: woodwinds appearing to be recorded from afar (which is the illusion you want to create, right?) sound a lot more diffused and blurry than woodwinds recorded from up close (which is how the Vienna woodwinds were captured).
So if you 'prepare' these instruments a little bit (a bit of thinning out, an some attenuation of the upper end as well) before sending their signal to the reverb, you should be getting a much better result: a more convincing illusion of distance, a more believable sounding instrument and a much better sounding reverb as well.

Don't thin out too much though. You don't want to end up with a small, nasally sounding clarinet, you simply need to remove some of the 'closeness' in the dry sound before it reaches the reverb.

_


----------



## Andreas Moisa (Aug 16, 2012)

Don't forget that Vienna Samples make use of the full stereo field, you should also narrow the stereo image of the instrument.


----------



## YoungComposer (Aug 16, 2012)

Wow, that is hugely helpful for me. Had no idea about the necessity of having to narrow the stereo image and thin out the sound. I am kind of new to all of this, so I'm not exactly sure how to do what you said and by how much....

Are there any tutorials online to help with this? And help with making samples sound realistic in general?

Thanks


----------



## jleckie (Aug 16, 2012)

try this guy. Beat great and since your question is specifically about a Vienna instrument this may be a good thing: http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/


----------



## Per Lichtman (Sep 11, 2012)

YoungComposer @ Thu Aug 16 said:


> Wow, that is hugely helpful for me. Had no idea about the necessity of having to narrow the stereo image and thin out the sound. I am kind of new to all of this, so I'm not exactly sure how to do what you said and by how much....
> 
> Are there any tutorials online to help with this? And help with making samples sound realistic in general?
> 
> Thanks



If you are using the Vienna Audio Suite, the PowerPan is a great place to start. If not, the free Flux stereotool is one place you could try starting.

In terms of making the samples sound realistic, one of the first things you might want to do is try taking a parametric EQ (your sequencer probably came with one) and then setting it to a relatively narrow Q or resonance. Once you do that, try boosting a frequency and then sweep through the sound from high frequencies to low to find any part of the sound that makes it feel "unrealistically close" to you. Then bring the gain down in that range.

If you don't like using EQ, you get a start by using a saturation or tape or console plug-in to alter the sound a bit before you get started.

You can also reconcile your experiences with your awareness of physics and the advice others offered in this thread.

When you're very close to a wind sound (which includes voice) the bass is exaggerated. This drops off once you get past a certain critical distance, but as you keep going further, the bass sounds will carry further than the highs. Every space has a different acoustic signature so the balance will change in different ways as you get further away.

But here is a simple approach for my own EQing of an oboe (and it applies in some ways to a clarinet as well).

Find the part that is "bugging" you the most. Usually it will be the over-emphasized frequency that is making the instrument sound artificially honky and clear. With that in mind, hit the air frequencies that are higher in the spectrum. You can only hear so much breath when you are far away from the sound.

Then, start to warm up the mids (very slightly) by using the band sweeping technique I mentioned earlier. Except this time you are trying to find the most beautiful frequencies in the low-mids. And when you find it, boost it by 0.3 to 1.3 dB after you broaden the Q.

Be aware that a broad Q/resonance value often sounds more natural than a sharp one and that cutting will usually make a sound "blend" will boosting tends to add body. So take care when boosting to not make the sound too big.

Like I said earlier, if you don't like doing band EQ-ing, just use a roll-off filter to take the edge of the highs and lows before you send them to the reverb.


----------



## YoungComposer (Sep 17, 2012)

Ok, so after a couple of weeks, this is what I got...

http://soundcloud.com/benjamingoldmanmu ... arinet-vsl

THANK YOU VIRTUAL SURROUND STAGE!!!!

Let me know what you guys think.


----------



## dannthr (Sep 17, 2012)

Better, but freaking quiet.

Your earlier example the whole performance was forte, which was killing the performance expression and phrasing.


----------

