# How's your life affected by Covid-19?



## JohnG

lots of fallout for people in school, playing concerts, workplaces. All the children's schools online as of next week.


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## Daniel

My live performance job has been canceled 2 times by a different client.
But lucky me, I just bought FP 10.


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## Zedcars

My sister and my mother are both worried sick. They are very depressed about it. They both tend to be worriers and negative, my sister more so. Whereas I'm a more positive person and try to buoy them up.

Personally I am being more conscious about what I touch and making sure I wash my hands more frequently than normal. I've already reported someone at work for not washing their hands that I've witnessed (on the odd occasion I use the communal toilet at the same time). And I work in a hospital which is understandably ultra-sensitive about cleanliness in normal day-to-day life there. There are signs up everywhere about the 20 second rule. He basically visits the wards daily where there are lots of vulnerable people (young and old). So had no choice but to report him.

I'm curtailing any social events and postponing things for later in the year when hopefully it will have died down.

So, I'm trying to be positive, yet realistic and practical about it all. It's kind of hit us all rather quickly and still feels like I'm in a disaster movie.


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## Brasart

Thankfully I'm young and I work from home, I even was able to attend my first academy award ceremony monday (and win my first award too!) in Paris, so Covid-19 hasn't impacted me at all -- at least yet !


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## Quasar

My local AA group has stopped holding hands when saying The Serenity Prayer, but that's about it for me.

I'm not at all worried for myself. I just assume that everyone, including me, will become exposed and that my immune system will eat it for breakfast, then ask what's for dessert. But I have people close to me who are much older or have health conditions that might render them vulnerable, and I worry about that... Given that it can live on common objects at room temperature for "hours to days" and that the incubation period, during which one is asymptomatic, can last for up to two week, I do not believe that attempts to contain the spread are realistic.


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## JJP

Nothing devastating, but plans are changing.

Was supposed to be doing music prep for a foreign project recording in Berlin this week that has been postponed.
Have AFM negotiations with TV networks in NYC next month that I'm betting will be postponed. I'm waiting to see what the WGA does with their negotiations. That should be a good indicator.
Have a choir rehearsal and concert we were supposed to attend this weekend that I have a feeling will be postponed or cancelled.
Was thinking about swinging by GDC and the ASCAP Expo this year, but they are gone.


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## mybadmemory

Working from home since this week (entire company of 3000+ employees globally).


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## jononotbono

A lot of work at the studio I work at has been postponed. A few European producers can’t fly out. Also a feature I’m going to be writing additional music for has moved it’s shoot to June.


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## Jimmy Hellfire

Not really worried for myself - healthy, very athletic, resillient, I feel confident that I'd shake it off. Bit worried about my old folks.

A huge martial arts seminar I wanted to attend might get cancelled. That sucks, but highly understandable. Work-wise, this whole thing actually gives me extra time to finish a bunch of sound design stuff because wheels are turning slower anyway.

Right now I'm kinda more worried about the hysteria than the virus itself, I must say. Little fate in people out there handling exceptional situations prudently and with some sense of solidarity or even just care for each other. Watching the fool parade, can't help but wonder what would happen if we had a real catastrophy on our hands.

Sick of the disgraceful media coverage and befuddling statements and signalling from some politicians.

The panic buying is starting to get annoying. Can't get any kind of disinfectants anywhere for weeks now. People are now trying to assure themselves of having done _something_ by buying all and any canned food they can get instead. Also toilet paper. Wonder what's next.

Right now just trying to stay level-headed and positive, and do all the right things: proper hygiene, staying healthy, not getting coughed at, and for sure staying away from people in case I started to feel weird myself.


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## MauroPantin

Nothing major on my end just yet, mainly more conscious about how I behave and what I touch. Day to day there's not a lot of disruption in Argentina just yet but it's early days here.

I am not too worried about myself, I have good health for the most part, and I am young. But I am worried about my folks who are within the more at-risk population because of age and previous conditions, so I am doing my best to stay ahead of the curve and delay the inevitable as much as possible. This is going to get us all, but delaying the spread is critical, it is literally going to save lives.


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## I like music

My kid has asthma and has developed a chest infection, so I'm extremely worried on that front. I work from home but with kids at school, it won't be long at all until the whole thing spreads quickly. Hopefully the (very few) reports about it possibly causing lasting damage in people who recover, are also untrue. I guess we aren't going to be stopping this anytime soon, so wishing everyone lots of sleep (your immune system) and hopefully you get more time at home to make music!


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## jbuhler

I’m having to prepare all my teaching materials twice, once for in-class delivery, once for possible move online. University is being cagey about whether we’ll be moving to online delivery, only saying that we should be prepared...


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## jononotbono

It has to be said though, the Coronavirus feels like perfect weather to stay in and buy a new library. Or two. Just saying.


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## Billy Palmer

I normally self isolate anyway.


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## d.healey

No toilet paper in the shops! Luckily I stocked up in time


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## Uiroo

I stopped giving handshakes, some people don't really get it, which is annoying.
Seems like most people panic or don't take it seriously.
The biggest change for me at the moment is understanding the complexity of these situations and how little countries are prepared. The recent Joe Rogan podcast on that is really interesting.


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## tmhuud

Were waiting for the shoe to drop. We have a massive Seaworld project underway.


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## Alex Fraser

Work wise, it isn’t too much of a worry as I compose from home. 

However, my wife suffers from anxiety and has been worried sick about it. So to relieve her worry a little, we found ourselves in the supermarket this morning on a pasta and canned food drive. Just enough to last a couple of weeks if we’re all forced into hermit mode. 

Felt a bit daft but we have two young kids and a 9 month old baby with allergies. It is what it is.

My worry is that Boris and chums are already looking out of their depth..


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## Nick Batzdorf

tmhuud said:


> Were waiting for the shoe to drop. We have a massive Seaworld project underway.



Are you replacing the Spyro Gyra stuff they had last time we were there, Terry?


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## MartinH.

Looks like we'll have to cancel a vacation we booked months ago and were looking forward to. An event that I planned to go to is also being canceled, but I don't care about that one. Since today I feel like I'm getting a regular cold, which is doubly annoying. I'm gonna try to stay indoors, just in case. 
I'm worried about my parents, because age-wise they are at risk. Not too worried about myself getting it. 

Myself I'd almost want to get it over with rather sooner than later if most of us are gonna get it eventually anyway. My immune system is weaker than average according to my last blood test, but I'm still fairly confident I'd survive. 

Jobwise it won't have much effect on me, unless my clients get sick themselves (or I get really sick). I work freelance from home and the number of people involved in the projects is fairly small.


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## wst3

I have three high school aged kids and I am concerned that their school year is about to be disrupted. They are old enough, and responsible enough that I can continue to go to work until I am told to work from home, and I can to that easily. I have two shows in pre-production and I am a little bit concerned that we may be asked to postpone them. That would be difficult.

Mostly I am just astonished at people. Go ahead, hoard toilet paper, not like I can't get it somewhere else, not like they'll stop making it, but for heaven's sake stop panicking, and stop assuming the worst in everything and everybody.

I've watched people go bat-shit crazy over the dumbest things. I've watched people assume they are entitled to special treatment. And if I hear one more uneducated person explain probability (incorrectly, and the word is exponential) or explain that the flu kills more people (quantity and rate are two very different means of measurement) or anything else about which they have no friggin clue I am going to scream.

Bottom line, we are going to be affected, it remains to be seen how severe the epidemic (excuse me, pandemic) will be here in the USA. It remains, for that matter, to be seen how severe it will be worldwide. My kids are healthy, so they should be ok. I'm 60 for a few more days, but in reasonably good health, so I should be ok. (Ironically had my annual visit to the doctor this morning, my lungs sounded fine) My friends and extended family are all in good health, so they should fare well too.

Still it is about more than the impact on one person or family. This is bad, and it will very likely get worse before it gets better. We deserve (are entitled to??) better leadership. OK, we need better leadership.


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## CT

I'm cautious about it all, but my girlfriend is quite freaked out at times. I live in a pretty heavily affected part of the United States, and my family is either nearby or in other "hot zones." More than fearful (though I am for older relatives and friends) I'm just annoyed at this latest round of stupidity the world has thrown up.


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## Greg

Nice bump in youtube views from all the people staying home. Wasting too much time watching stocks & waiting for the bottom though.

Ps, remember that anxiety itself can wreck your immune system. Keep your heads on straight and try to comfort anxious family members that we all have


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## jamwerks

It sounds like shootings will get postponed, so in the coming months, we will probably start to feel the lack of work. And with movie theatres closing (for probably at least 2 months), many producers will suffer major losses and go under. There's going to be a lot less money in our industry for the coming years, hard times ahead for almost all I'd say...


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## sostenuto

Depends if one allows perverse media, politics, society to have and effect. I choose not to.
In my area, some are hoarding toillet paper, hand sanitizer, prices spiking. Surprise !!

If startled by individual survival behavior, some must be living in totally disconnected realities.

Millions losing millions of very hard-earned savings ( IRA's, etc. ) and stock transaction volumes are generating millions, if not billions in revenues. 

Really, aren't their sufficient other places to stir this shite than VI-C ? I guess not ......

POX on those who bring it here as well ......


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## JohnG

Quite an ironic curse to issue, under the circs...


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## sostenuto

JohnG said:


> Quite an ironic curse to issue, under the circs...



True, true ......... Would NEVER trade on individual suffering or discomfort in these 'repeating' horrendous situations.
OTH .... can truly challenge one's faith in humanity when observing actions of some. Hoarding toilet paper in areas minimally affected so far ??? 'Criminal' price spikes for needed items ??? Perhaps humanity has not progressed so far as previously touted ? 
Not my privilege to comment .....


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## Tice

E3 just cancelled over Corona, a game I'm working on was supposed to show there this year. Also medieval festivals are cancelling left right and center. I imagine it'll get worse before it gets better.


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## rgames

In the air today and tomorrow. Commercial airlines appear as packed and as miserable as ever.

Was hoping there would be significant reduction in traffic but no luck that I can see.


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## Sears Poncho

17 gigs cancelled so far.

I did an enormous orchestration project, took a month, night and day. The show is next week and was just cancelled. I am assuming it will be rescheduled, but in the symphony world this is easier said than done. It is what it is. No point of getting "upset", particularly because there's nobody to yell at.  

It puts things in perspective. The orchestration was a big deal for me, but in the grand scheme of life (and now death), it's nothing. Same with the gigs. I'm guessing that all my gigs until June may be cancelled. That's tough but I will be okay, I'll be a lot better off than many and I count my blessings. In classical music, we have older audiences....cancelling is pretty much the only option at this point.


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## sostenuto

Nuther case here in northern Utah. Older gent traveling with case from Europe. 
His to deal with, but who else was contacted ?? Europe ???? Recent days ??? WTF ??


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## JohnG

rgames said:


> Commercial airlines appear as packed and as miserable as ever.



Interesting. My in-laws just flew to New York and said the plane was practically empty.

The more science-leaning articles I've seen emphasize that it's helpful if people can avoid getting sick as long as possible so that the hospitals don't get swamped.


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## dzilizzi

My boss called me today to ask if I was concerned about my upcoming business trip at the end of the month. After I figured out what he was talking about, I told him no. I may be a little more careful, but I'm healthy and not overly worried. Mostly I work from home though. So it isn't much of an issue. Really, soap, water and scrubbing breaks it up. Or Lysol. If you freak out, carry some hand sanitizer. 

My husband has to be a bit more careful because he smokes and gets bronchitis easy. But he's not too worried either. More people catch and die from the flu than from this.


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## sostenuto

dzilizzi said:


> My boss called me today to ask if I was concerned about my upcoming business trip at the end of the month. After I figured out what he was talking about, I told him no. I may be a little more careful, but I'm healthy and not overly worried. Mostly I work from home though. So it isn't much of an issue. Really, soap, water and scrubbing breaks it up. Or Lysol. If you freak out, carry some hand sanitizer.
> 
> My husband has to be a bit more careful because he smokes and gets bronchitis easy. But he's not too worried either. More people catch and die from the flu than from this.



HUGE point !! Crazy fatality numbers from 2019/2020 Flu season here in USA ...... ~ 12000 to 16000 depending on source. Horrendous panic and financial impact on so many totally helpless to respond. Many are manipulating this for personal gain. World 'press' maybe most perverse and reprehensible of all possible entities. Just stirring the pot ... as usual.


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## rgames

JohnG said:


> Interesting. My in-laws just flew to New York and said the plane was practically empty.
> 
> The more science-leaning articles I've seen emphasize that it's helpful if people can avoid getting sick as long as possible so that the hospitals don't get swamped.


Pribably depends on the route. The numbers I've seen say total reduction is something like 2%-4%. I bet that number will grow over the next days/week.

EDIT: that's domestic US reduction.


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## MauroPantin

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> The panic buying is starting to get annoying. Can't get any kind of disinfectants anywhere for weeks now.



This is happening here in Argentina as well, in advance of what's coming and it drives me nuts. I've seen assholes buying purell by the tens. For it to work we all need to be able to wash our hands. I really don't get the lack of any kind of public statement signaling this simple fact.


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## rgames

It's important to remember that hand sanitizer is actually less effective than washing your hands. And antibacterial soaps/sanitizers kill bacteria, not a virus.

So while hand sanitizer is a good idea and convenient, with a bit of caution you're just fine if you wash your hands regularly.

It's the process of getting stuff off your hands that really matters. You don't need hand sanitizer to do that.


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## JohnG

dzilizzi said:


> More people catch and die from the flu than from this.



Well, maybe if you look back in the past, that's technically true. 

The latest I've seen, however, is that the mortality rate from COVID-19 seems to be at least 10x that of 'regular' flu, with some estimates quite a bit higher than that, as high as 3.4%.

Dr. Fauci of the CDC said, “The mortality for seasonal flu is 0.1 [percent]. The mortality for this is about two, two-and-a-half percent. It’s probably lower than that, it’s probably closer to one. But even if it’s one, it’s 10 times more lethal than the seasonal flu. You gotta make sure that people understand that.”

Dr. Fauci also said (paraphrasing) that while 80 percent of those infected would get only mildly sick and quickly recover, roughly 15 percent “will get into trouble,” and the mortality rate in that group is “very high.”


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## jmauz

Well I'm now using condoms...


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## JohnG

jmauz said:


> Well I'm now using condoms...



How?!...


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## rgames

JohnG said:


> Dr. Fauci of the CDC said, “The mortality for seasonal flu is 0.1 [percent]. The mortality for this is about two, two-and-a-half percent. It’s probably lower than that, it’s probably closer to one. But even if it’s one, it’s 10 times more lethal than the seasonal flu. You gotta make sure that people understand that.”


That's why there's significantly higher concern.

Remember that we have a long history of annual vaccinations against the flu. Nobody is vaccinated against Covid-19.

At present there are about 100x more cases of flu and 10x more deaths from flu, yes, but people are much more protected against it. If we get as many Covid 19 cases as influenza then it is likely to dwarf influenza in terms of serious health consequences.

That's the issue. We need to catch it now and prevent it from getting that serious.

And we can - it's not a complicated matter to protect yourself and others. Hand washing, limiting exposure and other common sense measures are all that are required.


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## Stringtree

This feels like 9/11 again. To live through that was living a life bathed in the color of the day of the color charts that were meant to teach terror metrics as a sort of synesthesia. Everyday life was imbued with the color of what was near the top. 

This is a plague, and it's near the top of the seriousness chart. I'm more afraid of what my fellow humans will do than what the evil virus will do. I pledge to be decent, but I want to live too. The metavirus has also flooded the public consciousness. Who is thinking about anything else? 

In other words, bawwwwwk, bawwwwk bawwwk bawwwk... 

Yeah, I'm scared. What have I got to do anything about this except wash my hands?

Greg


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## Sears Poncho

The ensuing poverty might add to the health woes in unprecedented ways. My inbox has been blowing up all night, gigs cancelling left and right. Many Americans live paycheck to paycheck, and in the past 3 days millions of people have been affected financially. A lot of people will be homeless.

The effect on the arts is already catastrophic. An organization like a symphony has an office staff that will still be paid. With no concerts, there is no revenue. The LA Phil and The Met have deep pockets and endowments, they will survive. Most groups operate on bare-bones budgets with little in the bank. My show next week was all "rental", including my orchestration. I've already been paid, the other works on the program have already been rented. Soloists are often booked months in advance and get deposits etc. All that money is gone. I'm already hearing talk about some groups shutting their doors... for good. All this in 48 hours.


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## Stringtree

There are serious reactions to this, and then there is theater. Real reactions tend to be utter disassociation. Like Harvard. Go home. Go on, Git! 

Theatrical responses tend to placate and hold out until maybe things get better. The exponential growth of the bad thing is going to quickly reveal which tactics are best going forward. 

In all things be decent. But protect yourself and your loved ones. 

I wanna complain about sample libraries again. You all be safe and ok so we can do that soon!

Large gatherings, and recommendations for minimization of contact. Talk of super-soap being available. Food available in bubbles of plastic. 

This is how I panicked to 9/11. Nothing good came of it. Die or not die, I hope not to create crappy music. 

Greg


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## Michel Simons

I am so glad that I am out of a job and don't have friends.

I need to buy more toilet paper though.


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## dzilizzi

JohnG said:


> Well, maybe if you look back in the past, that's technically true.
> 
> The latest I've seen, however, is that the mortality rate from COVID-19 seems to be at least 10x that of 'regular' flu, with some estimates quite a bit higher than that, as high as 3.4%.
> 
> Dr. Fauci of the CDC said, “The mortality for seasonal flu is 0.1 [percent]. The mortality for this is about two, two-and-a-half percent. It’s probably lower than that, it’s probably closer to one. But even if it’s one, it’s 10 times more lethal than the seasonal flu. You gotta make sure that people understand that.”
> 
> Dr. Fauci also said (paraphrasing) that while 80 percent of those infected would get only mildly sick and quickly recover, roughly 15 percent “will get into trouble,” and the mortality rate in that group is “very high.”


But I wonder how many people had it where it wasn't reported because it was just like the flu. 

And I may have misunderstood what I read. It was trying to calm down some of the crazy. Purell works because it has a high enough alcohol content. Lysol works and bleach and undiluted hydrogen peroxide. But the bleach mix and the hydrogen peroxide will bleach surfaces. Vinegar solutions don't kill it, but scrubbing does. Alcohol works but it has to be something like 160 proof (80%), so don't waste your vodka or whiskey on cleaning. Wash everything that comes in with soap and water - well scrub the cans, jars and plastic containers. Spray down stuff that gets regularly touched. If going shopping is a problem, use a delivery service and have them leave it on the porch. Or go during non-busy hours. 

That was the basics. I did like that Amazon basically stated they would suspend any seller charging unreasonable prices on necessities that are normally inexpensive. And it probably wouldn't hurt to get some water and basics. I really should have them in case of an earthquake anyway.


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## dzilizzi

Sears Poncho said:


> The ensuing poverty might add to the health woes in unprecedented ways. My inbox has been blowing up all night, gigs cancelling left and right. Many Americans live paycheck to paycheck, and in the past 3 days millions of people have been affected financially. A lot of people will be homeless.
> 
> The effect on the arts is already catastrophic. An organization like a symphony has an office staff that will still be paid. With no concerts, there is no revenue. The LA Phil and The Met have deep pockets and endowments, they will survive. Most groups operate on bare-bones budgets with little in the bank. My show next week was all "rental", including my orchestration. I've already been paid, the other works on the program have already been rented. Soloists are often booked months in advance and get deposits etc. All that money is gone. I'm already hearing talk about some groups shutting their doors... for good. All this in 48 hours.


This is the big problem. Homeless means no regular source of running water. Less hand washing and faster spread of disease. And less healthy people. It's not good. 

I thought I heard a pharma company in San Diego came up with a vaccine. The problem is, they have no way to manufacture enough to provide vaccines for everyone and there is probably some patent stuff involved. I didn't hear anything more after that.


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## mikeh-375

A vaccine would be big world wide news @dzilizzi. Every estimate I've heard so far suggests a year at least before one is manufactured, let alone distributed.
There are people in our village (some in their 60's and upwards), who_ still _think covid19 is just a strong flu bug.


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## laurikoivisto

jmauz said:


> Well I'm now using condoms...



They say you should stay away from the crowds so I don't think that...oh right! You said condomS!


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## Jimmy Hellfire

MauroPantin said:


> This is happening here in Argentina as well, in advance of what's coming and it drives me nuts. I've seen assholes buying purell by the tens. For it to work we all need to be able to wash our hands. I really don't get the lack of any kind of public statement signaling this simple fact.



That's exactly what drives me nuts. There's jackasses out there sitting on 5l of sanitizer in their homes, probably not even using the stuff, while there's people out there in actual need of it - regardless of Corona even. A training partner of mine works at a hospital and they recently got a memo basically telling them that it's odd how the in-house sanitizer supplies are mysteriously depleted all of a sudden, and asking them to consider that the stuff is needed in order to do their actual job. LOL.

I got prescribed something for a skin condition recently and went to a drug store to pick it up real quick. Not a chance. Everybody in there was just panicking and acting like absolute idiots. One person bought the last bottles of sanitizer - all of them of course - and for a moment it got REAL weird in there, the rest of the bunch zoned in on them and for a second it looked as if they were about to lynch the guy. Then proceeded to scream at the pharmacist ladies, etc. One elderly woman screamed "ITALY IS SHUT!!!" and stuff like that.

I get that folks are trying to enhance their sense of security. But how about developing a habit of washing their hands for starters, isn't it just the perfect opportunity ...


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## bill5

Other than my corporate workplace totally freaking out along with seemingly the rest of the world, not in the tiniest. But I fully expect within the coming months that people will lock themselves away in their homes and have a stroke if someone so much as rings the doorbell. Hello Rod Serling, your world is calling. We should rename Earth to "Neurotica."


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## bryla

I had a concert planned for tomorrow in Leipzig. Last week it was cancelled because it had an audience of 12,000. Last week that seemed like an exaggeration. Now in Denmark (where I live) all assembly of people of 100 people is banned, schools are closed, leisure sports club are closed and people where panic buying toilet paper yesterday. Basically Denmark is shut down for 14 days.

Besides the cancelled concert to me it means that I'm not teaching music – not even small groups – the next two weeks. Otherwise most of my work is online so whatever orchestration/arranging I had planned will probably go through since we can do recordings remotely.


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## Uiroo

dzilizzi said:


> This is the big problem. Homeless means no regular source of running water. Less hand washing and faster spread of disease. And less healthy people. It's not good.
> 
> I thought I heard a pharma company in San Diego came up with a vaccine. The problem is, they have no way to manufacture enough to provide vaccines for everyone and there is probably some patent stuff involved. I didn't hear anything more after that.



I highly recommend watching this podcast with Michael Osterholm, at least the first bit.
He wrote a book predicting pretty much this exact scenario, and he and his team predicted the progression of Covid very precise until now.

As he said, he could make a vaccine overnight, that's not the problem, the problem is it will have all sorts of problems.

They way I understand it, the real problem with Covid-19 isn't the death rate, but how long it takes until you show symptoms of infection. 3% death rate is not exceptional, but if the whole planet gets it, it'll be really bad. As Michael Osterholm sais, stopping Covid-19 is like stopping the wind, because infection spreads through air. Surgical masks don't help either.


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## KallumS

I watched that yesterday. This is the first I'm hearing that the virus is airborne, I thought it was only spread through droplets and that the droplets were only suspended in the air for a very short time? 

He mentioned about the cruise ships passing it through the air from cabin to cabin. If that's the kind of situation we're looking at then Covid-19 truly is the perfect virus.


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## Henu

I'm currently doing (rather awaited) album with my band in studio after a 7- year hiatus so the pressure is real even before the Coronavirus. Our other guitar player flew from Essen two days ago which was defined as "epidemic zone" by the Finnish health ministry three days ago. He got to Finland but is not allowed to come to the studio facilities due to possibly carrying the virus, so he is tracking his parts somewhere else. 

I'm a bit worried if I catch the virus myself, because due to quarantine that would mean the album recordings need basically to halt next week which means we don't have enough time to deliver it to the record label -> album gets delayed for months from stores. Exciting times!


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## Pietro

In Poland, all events are canceled and as of today, all schools, preschools, universities, theaters, etc. are closed. My not-wife (who works in the opera) won't be back to work as previously planned (after a year of maternal leave).

I'm rather calm. But many of our real-life friends from the musical ground are currently under home quarantine after having daily work contact with someone who's just been confirmed with the virus. So I can't say it's not real or that I don't know anyone who traveled.

From my professional perspective, I would say, that the concert of polish game music, that was performed in Shanghai Oriental Center in December would never happen today. And we had more of those in plans in a few parts of the world. All the development of those stopped because of the virus situation. I also had to cancel my attendance at Game Audio Awards this year, and many other gamedev events didn't happen or will not happen this year.

Anyway, we're not as worried about ourselves and children, as we are about our parents.

And as a joke, I'm wondering if, in case of home quarantine, I could go to my studio (which is 2 stories away in the same building).

- Piotr


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## Henu

Pietro said:


> Anyway, we're not as worried about ourselves and children, as we are about our parents.



Yep, exactly the same here. I have also a 90-year old grandma who I'm concerned about the most. For kids, my youngest kid has a long history with lung problems (as I as well), so I got our inhalator-recipes renewed today to make sure the current ones don't run out if shit hits the fan.


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## Sears Poncho

Henu said:


> Yep, exactly the same here. I have also a 90-year old grandma who I'm concerned about the most. For kids, my youngest kid has a long history with lung problems


Best of luck to you and your kid, and grandma as well. My dad passed away last year, he was 87. I have been thinking of what it would be like if he was around. He had some dementia but not full blown at all and kept up on the news. I imagine that he would be terrified.

In the US, we have a big problem with the news. DISCLAIMER: I'm just describing a situation and not trying to bring politics into this. When some like, let's say, a president calls a virus "fake news", and a major news network starts out that way.... it's not good. I saw a reporter (about a week ago) interview a group of women, they all said "It's fake news". I'm not making that up. The damage that can be done by this will be counted in lives. We have politicians who don't believe in science, and ones who blame all on "the gays". And it's going to affect the US and beyond.


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## Pudge

The main thing Covid-19 has uncovered is the amount of narcassitic and selfish indivduals who really don't care about others well-being, even their own family and friends. They only care about themselves, what suits their narative or if profiting from others suffering is viable. The conversations I've had with individuals who incist it's "nothing" and continue to act like everyone else is "stupid" (as if they are high and mighty) makes my piss boil. Do we really live in a world where the seeming majority of individuals do not care about factual evidence and are sooo lazy they cant even form a cohisive argument based on facts?


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## youngpokie

Personally, I'm not yet affected, but my partner is a furniture designer and will be out of a job if this takes a sustained hit on the economy. 

But at the same time whenever I turn the TV on or read news online, I just can't help being struck by the relentless promotion of panic and it makes me feel really helpless (and really angry). 

This calculated, open and unending exploitation of a crisis by multiple players at the same time - by the media selling the panic for ratings, by politicians - for upcoming elections, by short sellers on stock exchange tanking the markets, and so on. 

Probably the wrong example, but I think of the stories of the London bombings during WWII and wonder how differently it would be played out in today's environment. Stiff upper lip my ass, I guess.


----------



## nolotrippen

JohnG said:


> lots of fallout for people in school, playing concerts, workplaces. All the children's schools online as of next week.


Was at CostCo yesterday, Woodland Hills. Packed. Toilet Paper? Gone. People are buying paper towels instead--bad idea, they're not made to flush; use Kleenex instead. Most people in line I talked to felt the panic was media-driven and unnecessary. I'm 64 and take probiotics. I stopped taking flu shots many years ago because all they did was give me the flu AND I still got the flu. Haven't gotten the flu since. Never liked shaking hands anyway. Fist bumps, baby.


----------



## Robo Rivard

COVFEFE-19.


----------



## dzilizzi

mikeh-375 said:


> A vaccine would be big world wide news @dzilizzi. Every estimate I've heard so far suggests a year at least before one is manufactured, let alone distributed.
> There are people in our village (some in their 60's and upwards), who_ still _think covid19 is just a strong flu bug.


I found a web page on it. They got permission to be in trials right now in China for the one I heard about. There are a few other drug companies working on it as well. This company makes the flu vaccine and has a system that analyzes the DNA of the virus to make a vaccine, they just needed some of the virus to start. The problem is the approval process takes a bit and it won't be out probably not until August/September at the earliest.


----------



## brynolf

Live technician here. Lots of clients cancelling their concerts and events. No biggie, I can live on bark.


----------



## mikeh-375

dzilizzi said:


> I found a web page on it. They got permission to be in trials right now in China for the one I heard about. There are a few other drug companies working on it as well. This company makes the flu vaccine and has a system that analyzes the DNA of the virus to make a vaccine, they just needed some of the virus to start. The problem is the approval process takes a bit and it won't be out probably not until August/September at the earliest.


That's cool, thanks for posting that. Some hope sooner than anticipated perhaps.


----------



## Polkasound

Right now, most people at the dances I play are electing not to shake hands. That's the only change I've noticed so far. But as things worsen, I will likely need to brace for gig cancellations since most of my audiences are in the 70-90+ age range.

Stores in Milwaukee are still well-stocked, however, I've very calmly been storing up food and supplies because it's safer to be out in public shopping now than it will be a few weeks from now.


----------



## Uiroo

Polkasound said:


> I've very calmly been storing up food and supplies because it's safer to be out in public shopping now than it will be a few weeks from now.


Yeah, I think that's the way to go, every time I go to the supermarket I buy a bottle of water and a can of beans or something for storing. I think that's ok as long as the shelves are full, and if I end up never needing it I'll eat that stuff when I'm too lazy to go to the store in a year or two.


----------



## dzilizzi

I tend to stock up on certain items anyway, just because it is easier to not have to buy them all the time. And, of course, shopping at Costco, you always get a lot. 

But I am getting low on some staples like canned tomatoes.


----------



## Kent

jamwerks said:


> It sounds like shootings will get postponed


I initially understood this as "school shootings"...I am an American, indeed :(


----------



## Virtuoso

I popped into the chemist yesterday and asked an assistant "What gets rid of coronavirus?" 
She said "Ammonia cleaner.” 
I said "I'm sorry, I thought you worked here.”


----------



## Celestial Aeon

It's definitely a symptom of the modern era that people have tough time handling the emotional aspect to almost any crisis. We have accustomed to too easy, too convenient and too automated life and when something like this happens majority of people just lose their bearings.

It's good to remember that even black holes evaporate eventually and entropy can't be escaped <3

Oh: Iain M. Banks' Culture series is worth reading in times like this. One of the best sociological scifi out there.


----------



## JJP

I'm starting to see an impact on musicians who teach, record, and perform live. Things are getting cancelled left and right as productions shift and large gatherings are banned. This could be a tough period for a lot of people as they see their paychecks disappear.


----------



## AndyP

Today I got the information that the first rock festival in June was cancelled. We assume that it will not be the only one.
Sports events will only take place without spectators, possibly the soccer season will be suspended here in Germany.
The supermarkets in my area (Hamburg) are still well stocked, disinfectant is sold out everywhere. Soap is better anyway.
Many people expect that here as in Italy most shops will be closed in a few weeks. Who can do home office should do that.
This is a very bad situation for the old and chronically ill. It becomes problematic if many cases occur at the same time because it will negatively affect the medical care for all. That is the main problem. Today I went to the doctor because I needed a prescription for a new asthma spray, every cough is suspiciously observed. The question why I am coughing I have now heard more often than ever before. When I say it is allergic asthma, people are usually reassured.
I am worried about my parents who are both very old and sick anyway.


----------



## Bluemount Score

Not yet affected directly. Don't know anybody in person who got infected so far. But in the last few days, things started to get very serious here in Germany.


----------



## toomanynotes

d.healey said:


> No toilet paper in the shops! Luckily I stocked up in time


does this virus make u crap loads? Or will you eat the bog roll incase of food shortage?


----------



## Geomir

Same here in Greece! Last days we are being more and more worried! Still everything OK in the super markets, we can still find everything we need, but I am afraid the next weeks this will get really worse. Still I try to be calm, I never overstock things, I just buy what I need for the next days!

The problem - as mentioned - is the older people with poor health. My father is one of them.

Also like @AndyP, sometimes I am even "afraid" to cough! I was in the super market and I wanted to sneeze (just seasonal allergy, nothing really bad) and I managed to hold it, because if I did sneeze, maybe 100 people would instantly stare at me like seeing a criminal!

Still I go to work, and already the traffic is reduced last days. All the schools will remain closed for the next 14 days, plus cinemas, theaters, etc... Sports are also affected.

I cannot wait for Greek summer to come fast and kick the virus' ass! I hope all the countries restrain the virus and recover as soon as possible.


----------



## artomatic

A bit leary going to the gym now, which is sad...
I do have a home studio, so I am not affected with loss of work, etc.
- And I've stocked up on toilet paper!


----------



## d.healey

toomanynotes said:


> does this virus make u crap loads? Or will you eat the bog roll incase of food shortage?


I've been wondering the same thing.


----------



## givemenoughrope

^please translate this into American thx


----------



## babylonwaves

I've wrote something funny just a minute ago and deleted it. I think what we all face is to find a way to reduct the speed of the outbreak. simply because chances are that ERs and in general hospitals cannot cope with a spike. I'm a gym guy myself. I'd hate to stop going. but I need to sleep on that, it's one of those moments when you think: oh logical and you keep on running (think stop smoking) 

this is really all about delay. this is really not about us (people in my age group). it's for the older.


----------



## dzilizzi

toomanynotes said:


> does this virus make u crap loads? Or will you eat the bog roll incase of food shortage?


It's because of the preppers. I've watched a few videos in the past, mostly because they have good methods for long term storage of food, including things like rice and beans. If you ever have had an infestation of pantry moths and had to chuck everything, you start watching videos like that. Anyway, they talk about hoarding toilet paper because if there is an apocalypse, that is one thing you usually can't replace with something else. 

Unfortunately, the news and governments make it worse that it seems in some ways. And I can see trying to keep sick people out of a large event they paid for (and make them stop touching everything after they coughed into their hands) is impossible. So I guess a lot of big events will be shut down. If everyone were careful and washed their hands, a lot of this wouldn't be needed.


----------



## MartinH.

babylonwaves said:


> simply because chances are that ERs and in general hospitals cannot cope with a spike.



It's a guarantuee that no country has the capacity to deal with a big spike, so any big spike would also spike the mortality rate. Slowing down the spread is really important. But that will also draw out the time till it's "over". 

The last guess-stimated projection that I heard is that it's gonna be like now or worse for another 8 to 24 _months_, depending on whether there are any breakthroughs with vaccines etc.. But even if they find a vaccine, the can't _make _enough of it quick enough to create herd immunity. Here in Germany we don't even have the factories anymore to make stuff like that, because we've outsourced it all to india and china as far as I heard. I didn't know that before today and I find it troublesome to say the least. We're giving up way too much autonomy with all the globalisation and everything gets so much more vulnerable to interuptions in the supplychains.

Also I'm a little worried about how well my girlfriend would deal with a total lockdown situation because she's not the type to voluntarily sit indoors for weeks on end...


----------



## Sears Poncho

Well, I'm kinda screwed. For starters, my state is overall banning any public groups of 100 or more. That means no gigs. A few of the arts organizations around have pulled the plug on the season. Arts is like schools, a season is usually Sept-May, so this month and the next 2 are out. And the summers are usually very light work-wise. So, I probably will have little performing work until mid-September.


----------



## Andrew Aversa

My wife and I already work from home as it is, and we don't really go to public events, so the two of us won't have to change much about our routine. Our daughter will miss going to the library and Gymboree for a little while, though. At least we can walk outside!


----------



## dzilizzi

Well my husband came home and dragged me off the the store to stock up. I guess they've found some cases of coronavirus in the area that relate to people he works with. He may have to telework soon. I already telework, so it will on affect my work related travel. 

It was scary how empty some of the shelves were. I picked up some weird looking pasta. They were out of the normal stuff. No rice, flour, water and toilet paper. We, of course, stocked up on the important stuff - chocolate chips and coffee. And cat and dog food. And, of course, it was pouring rain (it rarely rains where I live normally) so everything got wet between the store, car and house. Fun!


----------



## vitocorleone123

I live in Seattle (music is a hobby not a profession for me). Been working from home for over a week after the office closed. Schools are closed for 6 weeks or more, so the kids are home. Wife still has to go out and work (retail).

I’m a man in my mid 40s, and I have very mild but chronic asthma so, statistically, I think it’s around a 5% chance of dying once I catch it. Definitely more likely to need to go to the hospital.

Please educate yourselves on the symptoms - it’s not hard to find. Fever, cough, shortness of breath, fatigue are top.

Also read a bit in exponential growth. In a few weeks the world could(!) potentially be a different place. I hope I, my loved ones, you, and your loved ones, are all around and healthy in a month and into the future.


----------



## Geomir

dzilizzi said:


> Well my husband came home and dragged me off the the store to stock up. I guess they've found some cases of coronavirus in the area that relate to people he works with. He may have to telework soon. I already telework, so it will on affect my work related travel.
> 
> It was scary how empty some of the shelves were. I picked up some weird looking pasta. They were out of the normal stuff. No rice, flour, water and toilet paper. We, of course, stocked up on the important stuff - chocolate chips and coffee. And cat and dog food. And, of course, it was pouring rain (it rarely rains where I live normally) so everything got wet between the store, car and house. Fun!


Where do you live? I mean which country / city? So it's already happening there (you can't find even basic things in the super markets)?

OMG I was reading fast (without the effects of coffee yet) your post and I thought for a moment that your husband has to TELEPORT soon!! I was staring at my monitor, stunned, without being able to understand if your post was coming from the distant future!!


----------



## gyprock

Had friends from Montreal doing a 1 month tour in Australia. Their first gig was cancelled because the town hosting the festival was burnt to the ground during the fires. Their final show (4 gigs) for a festival this weekend was cancelled this morning because of the virus. When they arrive back in Canada this weekend they have to go through 2 weeks mandatory isolation. During this period, each of the musicians will have no revenue because their North American shows are also cancelled. The tour in Australia was a loss because of the double whammy of fires and virus. If this isn't hell, it's pretty close.


----------



## Uiroo

gyprock said:


> If this isn't hell, it's pretty close.


No, not even a bit, sorry. 

Sorry for your friends though, that's tough, hope they'll be fine!


----------



## Thundercat

Uiroo said:


> I highly recommend watching this podcast with Michael Osterholm, at least the first bit.
> He wrote a book predicting pretty much this exact scenario, and he and his team predicted the progression of Covid very precise until now.
> 
> As he said, he could make a vaccine overnight, that's not the problem, the problem is it will have all sorts of problems.
> 
> They way I understand it, the real problem with Covid-19 isn't the death rate, but how long it takes until you show symptoms of infection. 3% death rate is not exceptional, but if the whole planet gets it, it'll be really bad. As Michael Osterholm sais, stopping Covid-19 is like stopping the wind, because infection spreads through air. Surgical masks don't help either.



Agreed, and the fact anyone could be spreading it while asymptomatic means literally any one of us could have it or be spreading it even at this moment. Read: no one is “safe” for you to be around.

too bad we can’t just get everyone infected all at once and be done with it...but obviously it would overwhelm the healthcare system and many would die that otherwise would have survived with proper care.

But the other piece is the financial ruin the longer this drags out.

I’ve got gigs planned for moths canceling left and right, and little savings.

scary times.


----------



## Morning Coffee

If there was no media, this problem (and the panic that has followed it), wouldn't even exist, actually, it would, but it would be less of a worry..


----------



## JEPA

I go from home to studio, from studio to home. That's my life. But for two weeks it snowed on me not beeing preparated for this snow shower. I got a cold. Next day I was feeling better, in three days I was strong and healthy. After a week I went to a party with my wife (I don't wanted, but I decided to accompany her). We danced, was warm inside, outside cold. I got my second cold. After three days I was strong and healthy again. Now I am on the third week since the snow shower and I'm feeling something strange like the beginning of astma. I did took attention immediately and drunk tees, garlic, lemon, ginger, honey. Washing mouth with water, salt and lemon. I feel better again. I feel like I am fighting in three weeks against three waves of virus attacks. What kind of virus? I don't know, but I am giving my fight. I feel healthy except for the little astma symptoms yesterday. It could be everything,... my wife is doctor and had to attend lots of people the last weeks with colds, flu, etc. She got a cold from the stress. Yesterday she was feeling better already.

My conclusion: As kid I had every flu, virus, my mother is nurse and had taken care of me in the past. Eat well, sleep well, make sport, don't smoke so much, don't drink so much alcohol. That's all. Last past two winter I survived a near Influenza flu. I think the one thing that helps is beeing strong and healthy. Food habits. Sport. Hygiene habits. And having positive attitude.


----------



## patrick76

Morning Coffee said:


> If there was no media, this problem (and the panic that has followed it), wouldn't even exist, actually, it would, but it would be less of a worry..


Ignorance is bliss? I don't think so, especially in this case. Without the awareness to take appropriate action to stop an exponential rise in infections, you would have a much higher number of sick people and deaths. I'll deal with some people over reacting hoarding toilet paper rather than sticking my head in the sand.


----------



## Morning Coffee

patrick76 said:


> Ignorance is bliss? I don't think so, especially in this case. Without the awareness to take appropriate action to stop an exponential rise in infections, you would have a much higher number of sick people and deaths. I'll deal with some people over reacting hoarding toilet paper rather than sticking my head in the sand.



Really? Which part of what I said is not true?


----------



## AndyP

We expect a shut down of our company on Monday. Homeoffice for all who can. During the hour it will be discussed. After all, it affects about 600 employees in our building. 
These are drastic measures and this hits us hard.


----------



## Uiroo

Morning Coffee said:


> Really? Which part of what I said is not true?





Morning Coffee said:


> If there was no media, this problem (and the panic that has followed it), wouldn't even exist, actually, it would, but it would be less of a worry..


Everything, sorry.

The panic makes people more cautious and that saves lifes, the downside being a shortage on toilet paper and desinfectant.
If there was no media most people wouldn't know about it and a lot more people would've been dead already. If serious shit is going on, there's no way around panic, it's part of it.


----------



## Morning Coffee

Uiroo said:


> Everything, sorry.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> No, again, Which part of what I said is not true?


----------



## AndyP

Uiroo said:


> Everything, sorry.
> 
> The panic makes people more cautious and that saves lifes, the downside being a shortage on toilet paper and desinfectant.
> If there was no media most people wouldn't know about it and a lot more people would've been dead already. If serious shit is going on, there's no way around panic, it part of it.


And if you communicate these measures sensibly, people will understand. Unfortunately, it is not given to everyone to speak openly and honestly with people...


----------



## Loïc D

I’m just back in France from Taiwan where the Covid is handled with impressive results : contamination figure stays flat at 40-50, 1 death so far. Mask batches are distributed according to days / healthcare ID, everyone wears one, there’s gel in every place/shop and temperature scan in every official building / hospitals and some malls. 

That’s quite a lesson for us while Taiwan is denied a seat at the WHO.

So, I already work a lot at home (IT consultant) and remotely with my customers in FR/BE. No big changes though most of the Steering Committees are postponed or made online.

I hope everything is fine for everyone here and their family.


----------



## Paul Grymaud

I hope I survive it. As long as I post here, it's a good sign.
D'You know if it's contagious for the instruments (guitar, piano) or even the Virtual instruments ?


----------



## Anevis

My country is in emegercy state since yesterday so pretty much I can only make music at home and somehow work too.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Paul Grymaud said:


> D'You know if it's contagious for the instruments (guitar, piano) or even the Virtual instruments ?


Yes, the WHO has documented cases of COVID 19 jumping from animals to virtual instruments. Make sure to wash your hands before handling your DAW. My husband has to teleport soon. 

---

Be well everyone. Take precautions and limit travel and social interaction so we can contain this thing.


----------



## davidson

Paul Grymaud said:


> I hope I survive it. As long as I post here, it's a good sign.
> D'You know if it's contagious for the instruments (guitar, piano) or even the Virtual instruments ?



It's rare that macs get viruses, but if you're on windows, RIP.


----------



## Lassi Tani

Geomir said:


> OMG I was reading fast (without the effects of coffee yet) your post and I thought for a moment that your husband has to TELEPORT soon!!



I read teleport too. Maybe he edited his post..

In Finland the spike is not here yet, we're always behind, but I think very soon most have to work from home here too. People are already emptying the stores.


----------



## Paul Grymaud

Ugh ! I didn't think of that.
Maybe There's a solution. Not very practical but it protects the instrument


----------



## Geomir

sekkosiki said:


> I read teleport too. Maybe he edited his post..
> 
> In Finland the spike is not here yet, we're always behind, but I think very soon most have to work from home here too. People are already emptying the stores.


I was sure it was just my eyes!

Hey you can go up to the North, i.e. Lapland, maybe in extreme cold the virus dies!


----------



## Mattia Chiappa

My main source of income comes mostly from teaching and playing live. Most of my gigs were cancelled and the music school where I teach is now closed for at least 6 weeks. I was also looking forward to have a meeting with EMI today (been waiting for a year) but that had also to be postponed, together with a couple of other interesting things I had on the side. I live in the UK but my friends and family are in one of red zones in Italy right now, so I'm not only having financial worries but I'm honestly quite concerned for their well being and safety. It looks like it'll be a tough couple of months.


----------



## Lassi Tani

Geomir said:


> I was sure it was just my eyes!
> 
> Hey you can go up to the North, i.e. Lapland, maybe in extreme cold the virus dies!



Actually it's the opposite, the virus hates hot temperatures but loves cold. We'd be screwed, if we didn't have so many saunas!


----------



## dzilizzi

Geomir said:


> Where do you live? I mean which country / city? So it's already happening there (you can't find even basic things in the super markets)?
> 
> OMG I was reading fast (without the effects of coffee yet) your post and I thought for a moment that your husband has to TELEPORT soon!! I was staring at my monitor, stunned, without being able to understand if your post was coming from the distant future!!


We live it the desert in Southern California.


----------



## JEPA

sekkosiki said:


> Actually it's the opposite, the virus hates hot temperatures but loves cold. We'd be screwed, if we didn't have so many saunas!



Spring is coming! come on global warming, DO SOMETHING!


----------



## Reid Rosefelt

Morning Coffee said:


> If there was no media, this problem (and the panic that has followed it), wouldn't even exist, actually, it would, but it would be less of a worry..


There are about 900,000 hospital beds in the US. Every winter those hospital beds are stretched to breaking point by the flu. Covid-19 attacks the lungs, so people need respirators or they suffocate (essentially they drown) and die. Also, medical practitioners are lacking in protection and masks, so definitely a lot of doctors and nurses will become ill with Covid-19, when we need them most.

This is not about politics. It's not democrat or republican. This is an emergency where we need to all stand together. Looking for scapegoats like the media or the President doesn't help.

This pandemic is going to go up to a certain point and then it is going to go down, at least at first. A parabola. If we can keep the level of infections at the highest point lower, we can stop the hospitals from being overwhelmed. We can control it by closing big events, and encouraging people to work at home.

Sadly, the federal government hasn't done that. It's wrong to blame the President for everything, a lot of mistakes were made all over the bureaucracy. So it has been up to our governors and mayors and private companies--Republicans and Democrats--to close events, schools, etc, and attempt to quarantine communities.

It would also help if our government would declare a state of emergency and get the National Guard to build additional places for hospital beds like has been done in other countries. Try to get more respirators and masks, because we are low on both. Again, leaders on the local level are working on this.

Testing tens of thousands a people a day (as in South Korea) would definitely be our first line of defense, but it hasn't happened yet and I don't see any signs of it being done even weeks from now. The federal government has fiercely fought localities from doing that. Bureaucrats have left no stone unturned to prevent people from testing, with rules and red tape. And the virus goes on.

At the end of the day we will find out what happened. Perhaps we will find out that the reporting of the media saved lives, by convincing people to take action. Perhaps this will have been an over-reaction, and those who call this a hoax or an over-reaction will be shown to be correct.

But based on what has happened around the world, lives are at stake in our country of 367 million people. When there is this extreme risk, I think it's better to prepare for the worst.

When we look at the percentage of deaths in other countries, you have to figure in that we have a much higher percentage of old people in the US. You also have to figure in that people are afraid to go to the hospital here, because so many millions are uninsured, and even if you are insured, you can end up with a surprise $10,000 bill. And people without papers will know they'll be deported. These are all realities that have the potential to make things worse in the US than elsewhere.

When we get through this, and we will, we will need to prepare for it coming back in a few months, as these things often do.


----------



## Morning Coffee

TigerTheFrog said:


> There are about 900,000 hospital beds in the US. Every winter those hospital beds are stretched to breaking point by the flu. Covid-19 attacks the lungs, so people need respirators or they suffocate (essentially they drown) and die. Also, medical practitioners are lacking in protection and masks, so definitely a lot of doctors and nurses will become ill with Covid-19, when we need them most.
> 
> This is not about politics. It's not democrat or republican. This is an emergency where we need to all stand together. Looking for scapegoats like the media or the President doesn't help.
> 
> This pandemic is going to go up to a certain point and then it is going to go down, at least at first. A parabola. If we can keep the level of infections at the highest point lower, we can stop the hospitals from being overwhelmed. We can control it by closing big events, and encouraging people to work at home.
> 
> Sadly, the federal government hasn't done that. It's wrong to blame the President for everything, a lot of mistakes were made all over the bureaucracy. So it has been up to our governors and mayors and private companies--Republicans and Democrats--to close events, schools, etc, and attempt to quarantine communities.
> 
> It would also help if our government would declare a state of emergency and get the National Guard to build additional places for hospital beds like has been done in other countries. Try to get more respirators and masks, because we are low on both. Again, leaders on the local level are working on this.
> 
> Testing tens of thousands a people a day (as in South Korea) would definitely be our first line of defense, but it hasn't happened yet and I don't see any signs of it being done even weeks from now. The federal government has fiercely fought localities from doing that. Bureaucrats have left no stone unturned to prevent people from testing, with rules and red tape. And the virus goes on.
> 
> At the end of the day we will find out what happened. Perhaps we will find out that the reporting of the media saved lives, by convincing people to take action. Perhaps this will have been an over-reaction, and those who call this a hoax or an over-reaction will be shown to be correct.
> 
> But based on what has happened around the world, lives are at stake in our country of 367 million people. When there is this extreme risk, I think it's better to prepare for the worst.
> 
> When we look at the percentage of deaths in other countries, you have to figure in that we have a much higher percentage of old people in the US. You also have to figure in that people are afraid to go to the hospital here, because so many millions are uninsured, and even if you are insured, you can end up with a surprise $10,000 bill. And people without papers will know they'll be deported. These are all realities that have the potential to make things worse in the US than elsewhere.
> 
> When we get through this, and we will, we will need to prepare for it coming back in a few months, as these things often do.



Far out, people cannot seem to read in between the lines of a simple point I made. Yeah, it is a concern, but the media is causing people to panic unnecessarily, oh, and I'm so glad I'm not an American by the way.

P.S I am not ignorant as 'some' have claimed, I am actually tolerant of it and will probably get it at some stage. A mask won't save you. This is all predicted in the Bible, but who gives a fukc about that, right? Certainly, not most of the people here or Hollywood, or in the world I'd imagine.


----------



## ka00

sekkosiki said:


> We'd be screwed, if we didn't have so many saunas



Apparently it's a myth that saunas can help with Covid. On Joe Rogan's podcast #1439 with Michael Osterholm, they talked about it. Apart from saunas relaxing you, that is.


----------



## Saxer

Here in Germany all events with 1000+ people are cancelled. Probably all smaller events will follow. Schools and Kindergardens are mostly closed (depending on the federal state). Things change daily.

During summer I normally do a lot of live gigs like weddings, work parties, publicity events, village fairs and so on. Probably this year there will be a silent summer. I'm lucky I was asked to collaborate on a TV movie score and have some arrangements to write.


----------



## Lassi Tani

ka00 said:


> Apparently it's a myth that saunas can help with Covid. On Joe Rogan's podcast #1439 with Michael Osterholm, they talked about it. Apart from saunas relaxing you, that is.



True, if you already have Covid inside you. Even 120°C sauna doesn't heat you enough from inside😁. But if heat is targeted straight to it, it can be destroyed. Of course soap helps too.


----------



## Dunshield

Paul Grymaud said:


> D'You know if it's contagious for the instruments (guitar, piano) or even the Virtual instruments ?



I'm afraid my synth has caught it. I have to put it in quarantine now .. no more tunes for you, Ti ! I hope it didn't infect me though, but I believe the synth-to-human contagion rate is still zero .. for now ..


----------



## Rich4747

ka00 said:


> Apparently it's a myth that saunas can help with Covid. On Joe Rogan's podcast #1439 with Michael Osterholm, they talked about it. Apart from saunas relaxing you, that is.


Michaels long detailed information is very worth watching. The best info I have seen


----------



## ka00

sekkosiki said:


> True, if you already have Covid inside you. Even 120°C sauna doesn't heat you enough from inside😁. But if heat is targeted straight to it, it can be destroyed. Of course soap helps too.



Yeah, I think they mention on that episode that something hot enough to kill the virus would just burn you too. And the example of MERS was given, it was prevalent in the Middle East during times of extreme heat and survived just fine. They also mention another type of virus affecting the deer population that can't be destroyed by heat and lab instruments couldn't be sanitized so they had to dispose of it. Every virus is different of course.

It's a very informative episode though. Someone posted a link to it earlier, but it should be easy to find.

Also, Sam Harris's Making Sense podcast has been devoting episodes to discussions with experts in the field as well. Worth checking out by everyone here.

We get passed around so much well-meaning stuff on Instagram, Facebook, WhatsApp, etc that supposedly comes straight from some expert somewhere. Or second hand from someone who heard something from somewhere. And sometimes its either a hoax or some BS someone invented to make some money or maybe even just to give people something to calm their anxiety and invoke a placebo effect. I think a good rule of thumb is to not trust any of that stuff unless there is a link to some doctor with an actual specialty in infectious diseases.


----------



## ka00

Rich4747 said:


> Michaels long detailed information is very worth watching. The best info I have seen



Agreed. People should listen.

Here's a summary I made. But please listen to the source. And also check out what other actual experts say as well, as one person likely doesn't have all the answers at this early stage. But, this guy's credentials are hard to beat.


this will unfold for months. Prepare for months of living around strains on the supply chain and changes in our daily lives to avoid getting sick
Transmits very easily through the air
All you have to do is breath the same air as an infected person
An infected person can transmit the virus to you even if they show no symptoms or never show symptoms
They can transmit very soon after being infected as the virus develops in large quantity in a persons throat (where it can be passed to others by merely breathing) before they person shows any symptoms.
potentially 10 to 15 times more fatal than the flu
48 million hospitalization estimated over the next 3-7 months in the United States
Can spread very quickly
Nursing staff in Milan who may have the virus themselves are not being tested if they aren’t presenting symptoms (even if they might have the infection) because the situation is out of control and all hands on deck are needed
Alarming number of cases of people in their 40s
Like in Italy, this is going to unfold in rolling fashion around the world.
There are risk factors in a person’s current health situation that can cause a bad outcome (life threatening) for them.
The risk factors are:
Smoking
Obesity
High blood pressure


Incubation period is as little as 4 days (won’t show symptoms but can infect others)
Chauffeur in car got it from infected person by breathing the same air as he was driving the infected person to a hospital
Don’t think of it as a corona virus “blizzard” passing by, think of it as a corona virus “winter”, meaning don’t think we just need to make it through to tomorrow, it will be months we need to survive through.
Vaccine will take 18 months at least
Kids under 18 are getting infected but not necessarily sick. But they still transmit, even without showing symptoms.
38% of nurses in US have kids in primary school. If we close primary schools, who is going to take care of the kids
25% of the US population has no sick leave. If they have to stay home, they don’t get paid.

WHAT CAN BE DONE:


Since primary method of transmission is air, if you’re over 55 and have any underlying health issues (even things for which you are being treated with regular medication, like high blood pressure, etc) then you need to limit contact (aka Social Distancing)
YOU NEED TO AVOID LARGE PUBLIC SPACES
Avoid events with large numbers of people
If you’re sitting in a room with 100 people and you’re all sharing the same air the transmission is remarkable (example Cruise Ships, classrooms, public transport, movie theatres, concerts)
Stock up on prescription drugs you need to keep you alive (like blood pressure medication or anything else like that) the supply chain will have issues
The hand sanitizer, washing hands is good to do, but the data shows that this type of bug is primarily transmitted through the air, so that’s the part to focus on
Keep your immunity up by the following:
Get to a heathy weight, keep in shape
Don’t miss any high blood pressure pills
Get good sleep
Eat a healthy diet (limit alcohol)
Wear 3M N95 respirators out in public (already sold out globally, so we’ll have to do without)
Surgical masks are of no use to prevent infection but could be useful if someone with symptoms wears it as it reduces the chance they will cough projectiles in your face
But again, please listen for yourself. And also cross reference with other credible sources.


----------



## davidson

ka00 said:


> Yeah, I think they mention on that episode that something hot enough to kill the virus would just burn you too. And the example of MERS was given, it was prevalent in the Middle East during times of extreme heat and survived just fine. They also mention another type of virus affecting the deer population that can't be destroyed by heat and lab instruments couldn't be sanitized so they had to dispose of it. Every virus is different of course.
> 
> It's a very informative episode though. Someone posted a link to it earlier, but it should be easy to find.
> 
> Also, Sam Harris's Making Sense podcast has been devoting episodes to discussions with experts in the field as well. Worth checking out by everyone here.
> 
> We get passed around so much well-meaning stuff on Instagram, Facebook, WhatsApp, etc that supposedly comes straight from some expert somewhere. Or second hand from someone who heard something from somewhere. And sometimes its either a hoax or some BS someone invented to make some money or maybe even just to give people something to calm their anxiety and invoke a placebo effect. I think a good rule of thumb is to not trust any of that stuff unless there is a link to some doctor with an actual specialty in infectious diseases.



So what's the take-away from the JRE and Sam Harris episodes, for those of us who haven't listened?

Edit: you posted a summary at the same time as my question :D


----------



## Rich4747

very well done Ka00


----------



## Paul Grymaud

davidson said:


> It's rare that macs get viruses, but if you're on windows, RIP.





Dunshield said:


> I'm afraid my synth has caught it. I have to put it in quarantine now .. no more tunes for you, Ti! I hope it didn't infect me though, but I believe the synth-to-human contagion rate is still zero .. for now ..



As far as I can see, I wonder what TI means. Transmitting instrument ?
If so, what a horror. If I were you, I'd put it up for sale on eBay real quick.


----------



## dbudimir

Lost all my live gigs and adjudicating jazz festivals. Luckily I have a significant other who is a wonderful woman with a corporate job.

It always comes back to the old joke. " What do you call a trombone player without a girlfriend?"............Homeless.


----------



## InLight-Tone

The modern way of Life pretty much guarantees the spread. If we all stopped moving for a month or so, that would pretty much contain it. Of course we are all economic slaves, and the chances of that happening are nil. The government could give everyone a paid leave to stay home. Let it peter out. It'll never happen, but that's just the way I think regardless...


----------



## Paul Grymaud

HELP ! I think I'm contaminated. Folks, I'm going to leave the site for a while.


----------



## mikeh-375

Dunshield said:


> I'm afraid my synth has caught it. I have to put it in quarantine now .. no more tunes for you, Ti ! I hope it didn't infect me though, but I believe the synth-to-human contagion rate is still zero .. for now ..


you could actually crush that synth to powder, dissolve in hot water with a touch of honey and drink it to cure LFO. It's a well known ancient cure.


----------



## Geomir

dzilizzi said:


> We live it the desert in Southern California.


Wow! I would never - ever - thought that you would be affected there!


----------



## Uiroo

mikeh-375 said:


> you could actually crush that synth to powder, dissolve in hot water with a touch of honey and drink it to cure LFO. It's a well known ancient cure.


Yeah, but in many parts of the world LFO already mutated to ADSR, which is similar in some ways, but also different...


----------



## Geomir

sekkosiki said:


> Actually it's the opposite, the virus hates hot temperatures but loves cold. We'd be screwed, if we didn't have so many saunas!


Virus prefers cold than heat, but I think that in extreme cold it cannot survive! I suppose North Finland is colder that your average refrigerator, so you would be safe there!


----------



## gsilbers

KallumS said:


> I watched that yesterday. This is the first I'm hearing that the virus is airborne, I thought it was only spread through droplets and that the droplets were only suspended in the air for a very short time?
> 
> He mentioned about the cruise ships passing it through the air from cabin to cabin. If that's the kind of situation we're looking at then Covid-19 truly is the perfect virus.



i watched it this morning and thought exactly the same. just airborne and getting it from breathing.
so why so much enphasis on washing hands on every news outlet?

i guess if the virus stays around in surfaces then washing hands could work.

Seems anyone who is around someone who has it will get it. no matter what.


----------



## Uiroo

gsilbers said:


> i watched it this morning and thought exactly the same. just airborne and getting it from breathing.
> so why so much enphasis on washing hands on every news outlet?
> 
> i guess if the virus stays around in surfaces then washing hands could work.
> 
> Seems anyone who is around someone who has it will get it. no matter what.


I think washing hands has two benefits:
First it probably delays infection rate a little bit, and second it can stop outbreaks of other diseases like a regular cold or something, which would make Covid much more deathly in combination.

So if you can't really stop Covid with washing hands, you at least want to stop everything else with it.
That's what I think at least.


----------



## gsilbers

Geomir said:


> Virus prefers cold than heat, but I think that in extreme cold it cannot survive! I suppose North Finland is colder that your average refrigerator, so you would be safe there!



tom hanks getting it ws surprising also because its warm in australia. which normally flu subsides.


----------



## dzilizzi

Geomir said:


> Wow! I would never - ever - thought that you would be affected there!


It is in Orange County, so potentially, it could easily spread. Plus a lot of the larger businesses in the area have people that travel all over. So, not so surprising.


----------



## dzilizzi

youngpokie said:


> I won't have time to listen to it until later, but does he say where this estimate comes from? Thanks


I'm listening now while working. The guy being interviewed is an infectious disease specialist/"detective" He follows infectious diseases and knows how they work. I'm sure they have computer models based on all what they are seeing and testing for.

What is sad is that I read the other day that a drug company had a corona virus (earlier virus) vaccine almost ready for market but lost their funding. Not the same virus, but would have probably helped against this as it helps build immunities.


----------



## Geomir

dzilizzi said:


> It is in Orange County, so potentially, it could easily spread. Plus a lot of the larger businesses in the area have people that travel all over. So, not so surprising.


I always imagine the place where you live a warm, quiet, dry place, underpopulated, but after reading your reply about the large businesses and all those travelers, I clearly got it now.


----------



## Ben H




----------



## GtrString

We are all sent home from school and work in our family of 3, luckily we are secured wages for a long time. And we are healthy and not in the risk segments. Many others are less fortunate, having lost their jobs ect. so the situation is really bad.

Seems this will change life as we know it for a while. Take care out there.


----------



## dzilizzi

Uiroo said:


> Yeah, but in many parts of the world LFO already mutated to ADSR, which is similar in some ways, but also different...


Damn, that is scary. I think my computer may have that.


----------



## jbuhler

So things here have escalated quickly. On Wednesday, the administration extended break by a week and declared that we'd complete the semester by moving instruction online. On Thursday, they canceled all campus visitors, restricted all university travel through April 30. Today, they out and out canceled classes and told everyone except essential staff to stay home except to come in and collect any items from our offices we might need for the foreseeable future. It certainly feels like they are expecting the physical university to be more or less closed for several weeks.


----------



## vitocorleone123

Emergency declaration coming soon in the US according to the news. This is good at a high level, but also a bit nerve-wracking on multiple levels, especially in an election year.


----------



## dzilizzi

Geomir said:


> I always imagine the place where you live a warm, quiet, dry place, underpopulated, but after reading your reply about the large businesses and all those travelers, I clearly got it now.


Well, land is much cheaper out here. A 1100 sq ft 3 bed/1 bath house in the San Fernando Valley can go for a million, depending on where it is located. But at least half a million. Where I live, you can get a 4000+ sq ft house with 6 bed/3 bath for about $400K. So people commute. Plus land is cheaper and we aren't far from some major freeways, so large distribution hubs tend to build out here as well. And there are some military bases in commuting distance also. 

We rarely get rain though. And we had 2 days of snow this year that happens maybe every 10 years. So the weather has been weird.


----------



## NoamL

I have been paying attention to this situation since early January & have been taking my own steps to prepare since Jan 20. Got out of LA Feb 4.

I have a biology degree (double majored with music) and can read science papers & preprints with decent literacy. The situation is extremely serious. Do not take this virus lightly.

This week the thing I have been fearing for about 40 days has finally happened. Credible media, _The Atlantic_, reports *Italy is triaging whether to vent patients**.* I'll explain what that means in a bit.

The tidal wave is coming, unfortunately our governments have been horrifyingly negligent and we're going to get hit like China.

The number one thing I would advise is to NOT go and panic buy stuff. *You are already too late to buy things like sanitizer, people who have been paying attention got it first. STAY AT HOME.* Starting this weekend do not go outside except once a week to buy groceries.







I'll try to summarize and dispel some myths:


*It is not the flu.* It causes ARDS (breathing failure from pneumonia filling your lungs with fluid), the same thing that killed people with SARS. That is why some scientists call it SARS-CoV2 ("the second SARS coronavirus").


*THIS IS NOT A DISEASE OF THE ELDERLY ALONE.* I'll explain why in a bit.


*Treatment is supportive only.* If you get mild disease you won't need any intervention or at worst you'll breathe an oxygen tank for a few weeks. Patients who get worse need a tube down their throat to help them breathe, and when they get ARDS the last ditch defense is a machine called a ventilator. It takes small breaths for the patient while keeping their lungs inflated like a balloon on a helium tank. That is because inflation/deflation of the lungs inflames the pneumonia, like rubbing a bruise.


*Even if it seems like some places are better or worse, the truth is the entire West is in the same boat. *You will hear over and over "There are only [X] cases in [My Country] and we're much better here than [Bad Country]" because people don't understand logistic growth. This video is a good visualization, just watch the first minute. Supposing that the world continues business as normal, places like Washington state are only days behind becoming like Italy or Iran. The transition from "a few hundred cases" to "disaster" is only a difference of two fortnights because of those exponential curves! However, government actions can change the curve.

This chart explains it well, notice the logarithmic scale.







*Unfortunately, the true infection rate is much larger than the case number.* The virus spreads throughout the population, but during the initial phase of each local epidemic, only the people who get sick very quickly & severely get hospitalized and diagnosed. These individuals are like "landmines" in any local population. When they blow up we know the virus is here. But it's not just "jumping" from landmine to landmine, it's going everywhere. The government is not lying to you about the numbers, they are just reporting what is known with certainty. Academic/scientific discussion is aware of the undercount.


*There is some +/- uncertainty about the true fatality ratio** (deaths per infections) currently estimated at about 2 per 100.* People who get mild versions of the disease never get diagnosed and do not get counted into the number at the bottom of the fraction, making the virus appear more deadly. On the other hand, it takes many more weeks to recover from the disease fully than to perish from it. Scientists in China are underway with studies that take a random sample of a population and count the people with antibodies which is the best method for establishing total infections.


*T**he media's focus on the fatality rate IS WRONG. *The rate is somewhere near 10x as bad as influenza. Still, at the beginning of the epidemic, only our "landmines" get hospitalized and they get expert, personal, high tech care. But the logistic growth means that even if "most people will be fine," the healthcare system still gets overloaded with young and middle aged people who are in the 5% of severe ICU cases or up to 20% who need some form of hospitalization... FOR WEEKS.


*Overburden is the true public health risk & will cause most of the deaths.* If/Once your area has a healthcare system overburden, it's down to you & your body vs the virus, and the virus is capable of killing anyone. For example, those ventilator machines I mentioned are in short supply and need expert therapists to operate them. Most hospitals in the USA run at 90%+ capacity during flu season. Now we have this new disease on top. Once hospitals are saturated, the death rates will go up. The breaking point is being exceeded now in the worst-hit part of Europe, northern Italy, which actually has more hospital beds per capita than the US average.


*It's been in USA since February.* Genetic analysis of samples from one of the Washington cases ( https://bedford.io/blog/ncov-cryptic-transmission/ ) suggests SIX WEEKS of un-traced transmission _before_ people started presenting at hospitals. This doesn't mean that someone you bumped into at the supermarket on Feb 12 had it, just that it's been spreading from whatever one or two or three digit number of imported cases we initially got from China.


*There will not be a vaccine in 2020 short of a genunine Act Of God. Seriously, ignore Trump completely.* Dr. Fauci & Dr. Messonnier are the real deal, listen to them. Drug trials will be done sooner than a vaccine and some drugs useful against HIV are looking hopeful.


*Do not bet on it going away "in warm weather."* We don't 100% know why the flu season goes away in summer but the end of school may have something to do with it. Anyway, this virus is a relative of MERS and SARS, both of which had no problem with a warm summer or the Arabian climate, and this new disease could be like them or not.


*Concern over "testing kits" is too late for USA and Europe.* This is not HIV. It is a fast moving global pandemic. The point of testing people is to isolate them from the population and test everyone they've hugged in the last week. Once a government's capacity for contact tracing is overwhelmed, they will still try, and testing can still have some impact, however the cat is out of the bag.


*This is "less controllable" (not worse overall) than ebola. Scientists worldwide knew this since about February 4.* Containing disease depends on the specific characteristics of what we're fighting. The worst news we got about this virus was in early February when we found out from Chinese scientists that it can have presymptomatic transmission via droplet route PLUS there is an incubation period that averages somewhat under a week. That is entirely different from the stupid ebola scare six years ago where you were only really at risk if you got splattered with fluids from a very, very visibly sick person, and then you would RAPIDLY fall ill and be immobilized yourself. Ebola is like the zombie plague from 28 Days Later (get some blood in your eye, you 'bout to die) while Covid19 is more or less a deadly version of the common cold.


*Once a country has passed the containment phase, there will either be massive deaths or massive "public health interventions."* PHI is a phrase you'll hear in the coming weeks that is jargon for a super-quarantine, a shutdown of society. Not just canceling convention events or the NBA. Imagine a regime like you are not allowed to leave your apartment complex except once a week to get groceries and your temp is taken (in USA likely by mobilized National Guard) on entry and exit. Scifi scenario? This has been happening in China for all of February and into March now _for hundreds of millions_ of people, a population greater than the entire USA. I am not suggesting this as a horror story - this is what we SHOULD DO and what we probably eventually will do.


*There is no easy way to fight the virus.* All this stuff you hear about "wash your hands and don't touch your face" is about preventing fomite transmission. Sick guy touches something, you touch it hours later, then you touch your nose. The only real way to fight the virus is social isolation. And not this "no more 100 people events" thing, that just slows it a bit. See the point above - real social isolation. In the same vein, all the "temporary" school closures we're having are not temporary.


----------



## Thundercat

youngpokie said:


> Personally, I'm not yet affected, but my partner is a furniture designer and will be out of a job if this takes a sustained hit on the economy.
> 
> But at the same time whenever I turn the TV on or read news online, I just can't help being struck by the relentless promotion of panic and it makes me feel really helpless (and really angry).
> 
> This calculated, open and unending exploitation of a crisis by multiple players at the same time - by the media selling the panic for ratings, by politicians - for upcoming elections, by short sellers on stock exchange tanking the markets, and so on.
> 
> Probably the wrong example, but I think of the stories of the London bombings during WWII and wonder how differently it would be played out in today's environment. Stiff upper lip my ass, I guess.


Cogent analysis. Particularly regarding the media fomenting panic.

watching news last night almost felt like the media was having an orgie of glee at the sheer horror of it all.

I realize there are many honorable people in media and politics, but let’s be honest - they make their nick off the backs of our fear and negative emotions.

instead of measured response we get hype. I don’t mean the virus is fake news - but that everything about the situation is blown up, like a mouse casting monster shadows on the wall. To the point where you don’t know how much to buy into what they say or what to believe.

I’m already someone who has a deep distrust of the media, government, and what the establishment peddles. So it’s particularly hard for me to discern right action and thought.

thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts and experiences. It’s great to be part of such a terrific group of people.

mike


----------



## Geomir

dzilizzi said:


> Well, land is much cheaper out here. A 1100 sq ft 3 bed/1 bath house in the San Fernando Valley can go for a million, depending on where it is located. But at least half a million. Where I live, you can get a 4000+ sq ft house with 6 bed/3 bath for about $400K. So people commute. Plus land is cheaper and we aren't far from some major freeways, so large distribution hubs tend to build out here as well. And there are some military bases in commuting distance also.
> 
> We rarely get rain though. And we had 2 days of snow this year that happens maybe every 10 years. So the weather has been weird.


I think it's a really nice place to get inspired! And yet so much cheaper than more "commercial" cities! Well, I really hope that the virus will leave you alone as soon as possible, it will dislike the lack of rain and the dryness there!


----------



## MartinH.

@NoamL: Thank you for the realtalk, depressing as it may be. I've ordered one of those devices that measure pulse and blood oxigen because when/if I get sick I don't want to be in a situation where I wonder whether or not I need to go to a hospital or not. And if I go, I don't want to wait there for hours among other sick people only to get triaged out into the "not urgent" pile. Can you say what kind of blood oxigen level would be an indication to go to a hospital? Any recommendations for meds to stock up on?


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

NoamL said:


> *STAY AT HOME.* Starting this weekend do not go outside except once a week to buy groceries.


Would you advise against taking walks?


----------



## NoamL

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Would you advise against taking walks?



I don't know. There's still ongoing study about how long this remains in air. The first studies were saying it's suspended in respiratory droplets meaning it would quickly get deposited on surfaces (within 1 hr). But now there are studies from Chinese scientists that say people who rode a bus or plane with a sick person are getting infected just from recirculated air. And we all know about the cruise ships.



Thundercat said:


> watching news last night almost felt like the media was having an orgie of glee at the sheer horror of it all.



Pay attention to scientists, not the cable news.

Without getting apocalyptic: suppose there was a comet coming close to us and astronomers were dropping everything else they were doing and pointing every telescope on earth at this comet to try and get measurements every day and see how close it will get. From that fact alone, you would know it's a subject of concern. But what is the point of watching CNN or watching how the Dow Jones is doing? (like: "The DOW is down today, that must mean the comet is going to hit us.") CNN knows how to cover an election or a trial or a hurricane. Stockbrokers know how to read quarterly statements and how to value a business. What do any of these people know about orbital mechanics? We are ALL waiting for the astronomers to tell us.


----------



## youngpokie

dzilizzi said:


> I'm listening now while working. The guy being interviewed is an infectious disease specialist/"detective" He follows infectious diseases and knows how they work. I'm sure they have computer models based on all what they are seeing and testing for.
> 
> What is sad is that I read the other day that a drug company had a corona virus (earlier virus) vaccine almost ready for market but lost their funding. Not the same virus, but would have probably helped against this as it helps build immunities.



The New York Times published something different today, and it seems like this person's estimate of 48 million hospitalizations is more than double than the worst case from the 4 scenarios that CDC "secretly" projected and that were leaked to NYT. 

And as NYT says, the assumptions, on which those projections are based, come from the responses to previous epidemics, which were nothing compared to what is happening now. 

Worst-Case Estimates for U.S. Coronavirus Deaths


----------



## NoamL

MartinH. said:


> Can you say what kind of blood oxigen level would be an indication to go to a hospital?



I can't answer your 1st question but if you do need to go the hospital, *call first. Do not just go to the ER*. There will be a separate intake for COVID19 patients where everything is prepared to minimize the risk of infecting healthcare workers. This is extremely important because HCW's are the frontline of our defense.

Also indeed, if you are getting sick during the peak of the epidemic and you only _suspect_ you have it, the correct reaction will _probably _be to stay home and find out rather than go to the hospital if there is a five hour line of sick people. Don't take this as a certainty yet - this was the experience of people in China and there may yet be time for USA to set up a different system where there aren't overflowing hospital waiting rooms.



> Any recommendations for meds to stock up on?



Yes. Zicam if you can find it (unlikely) or any kind of vitamin that has high doses of zinc. If you must go outside or otherwise risk exposure, take small sips of lukewarm water throughout the day. If you start to have a "getting sick but not sick yet feeling" take the Zicam/vitamins. All of these steps are aimed at the same thing. If you first get exposed to the virus it will be in your nasopharynx, then it will migrate to the bottom of your lungs. Drinking water will wash it down into your stomach instead. Zinc blocks most respiratory viruses from binding. We don't 100% know about whether it affects this one.


----------



## NoamL

By the way if you are ever in a situation where you wonder if you have it: check if you have fever, cough, and trouble breathing. All the other symptoms associated with flus/colds, like runny nose and diarrhea, only appear in a very small percent of SARS-CoV2 patients. Again because this thing attacks your deep lungs, not your upper respiratory tract.


----------



## dzilizzi

youngpokie said:


> The New York Times published something different today, and it seems like this person's estimate of 48 million hospitalizations is more than double than the worst case from the 4 scenarios that CDC "secretly" projected and that were leaked to NYT.
> 
> And as NYT says, the assumptions, on which those projections are based, come from the responses to previous epidemics, which were nothing compared to what is happening now.
> 
> Worst-Case Estimates for U.S. Coronavirus Deaths


His may be worldwide. I'm not clear on that from the discussion, as it was jumping around a lot.


----------



## Greg

Idk about you guys but times like these are when I search for advice from panicking internet strangers on forums...


----------



## givemenoughrope

NoamL, just curious where you escaped to? We are seriously considering visiting my wife's dad in nowhere, Idaho for an extended stay.


----------



## Thundercat

InLight-Tone said:


> The modern way of Life pretty much guarantees the spread. If we all stopped moving for a month or so, that would pretty much contain it. Of course we are all economic slaves, and the chances of that happening are nil. The government could give everyone a paid leave to stay home. Let it peter out. It'll never happen, but that's just the way I think regardless...


Brilliant.


----------



## Thundercat

gsilbers said:


> i watched it this morning and thought exactly the same. just airborne and getting it from breathing.
> so why so much enphasis on washing hands on every news outlet?
> 
> i guess if the virus stays around in surfaces then washing hands could work.
> 
> Seems anyone who is around someone who has it will get it. no matter what.


Hand-washing = something you can do.


----------



## jononotbono

Ok ok, I just wanted to say, this is not what it looks like. I am not “one of them”!


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

jononotbono said:


> I am not “one of them”!


There is no "them". It's all humans on one team versus the virus.


----------



## CT

Land of Missing Parts said:


> There is no "them". It's all humans on one team versus the virus.



This is exactly what one of "them" would say! Nice try, them.


----------



## jononotbono

Land of Missing Parts said:


> There is no "them". It's all humans on one team versus the virus.


 
Wrong. I’m not some cretin panic buying pasta and toilet Roll and being selfish like “they” are. Thanks.


----------



## jamwerks

I imagine even our dev friends will be impacted. Probably impossible to hold large recording sessions for the next couple months. And a lot of us buyers will have less money to spend


----------



## MartinH.

NoamL said:


> But now there are studies from Chinese scientists that say people who rode a bus or plane with a sick person are getting infected just from recirculated air. And we all know about the cruise ships.





NoamL said:


> Pay attention to scientists, not the cable news.


Thanks a lot for digging into recent studies and helping to spread good info! Right now my main source of info is a daily 30 minute podcast by a German Virologist who seems to have a good cautious but fact oriented attitude and demonstrated that he's totally willing to change his recommendations based on new studies and data, but he also says he's giving so many interviews and advice to politicians at the moment, that he barely has the time to keep up with reading latest findings, so in some instances I believe the info you bring us straight from recent studies might even be slightly more up to date.




NoamL said:


> I can't answer your 1st question but if you do need to go the hospital, *call first. Do not just go to the ER*. There will be a separate intake for COVID19 patients where everything is prepared to minimize the risk of infecting healthcare workers. This is extremely important because HCW's are the frontline of our defense.


Good advice, thanks!



NoamL said:


> Also indeed, if you are getting sick during the peak of the epidemic and you only _suspect_ you have it, the correct reaction will _probably _be to stay home and find out rather than go to the hospital if there is a five hour line of sick people. Don't take this as a certainty yet - this was the experience of people in China and there may yet be time for USA to set up a different system where there aren't overflowing hospital waiting rooms.


I'm in Germany and even without Corona we have long wait times in the ER. It'll probably soon be absolute hell, which is why I really don't want to go there unless I think it would legit increase my survival chances. I'm neither old nor sick, so I'm fairly optimistic I would survive without special treatment, and I wouldn't want to unneccessarily tie up resources either. If it gets really bad, I'm not sure they'll still have the capacity to answer the phone :-/.



NoamL said:


> Yes. Zicam if you can find it (unlikely) or any kind of vitamin that has high doses of zinc.


I googled it and that seems to be homeopathic, meaning it doesn't contain much of anything?! I'll look for a zinc supplepent or vitamin + zinc combo. Shouldn't be hard to find. Thanks for the advice! I didn't know zinc (potentially) helps with this.



NoamL said:


> If you must go outside or otherwise risk exposure, take small sips of lukewarm water throughout the day. If you start to have a "getting sick but not sick yet feeling" take the Zicam/vitamins. All of these steps are aimed at the same thing. If you first get exposed to the virus it will be in your nasopharynx, then it will migrate to the bottom of your lungs. Drinking water will wash it down into your stomach instead. Zinc blocks most respiratory viruses from binding. We don't 100% know about whether it affects this one.


With lukewarm water, do you mean I need to warm it up or I just shouldn't cool it? I'm drinking tons (well... liters to be precise) of regular tap water anyway.
Is this a "the more water you drink the better" kind of situation? Does it help with the lung infection to drink more, so that your cough gets stuff out?
The "getting sick but not sick yet" feeling is something I've frequently had for months. I saw a doctor about it and the blood analysis showed my immune system is weak, but the cause is unknown. So I guess I'll have months of getting-sick paranoia to look forward to ^_^'.
100+ confirmed corona cases in my city already by the way...



NoamL said:


> By the way if you are ever in a situation where you wonder if you have it: check if you have fever, cough, and trouble breathing. All the other symptoms associated with flus/colds, like runny nose and diarrhea, only appear in a very small percent of SARS-CoV2 patients. Again because this thing attacks your deep lungs, not your upper respiratory tract.


That's good to know. Thanks so much again!


----------



## AndyP

NoamL said:


> By the way if you are ever in a situation where you wonder if you have it: check if you have fever, cough, and trouble breathing.


I only watch out for fever, as both other symptoms are normal for me between the beginning of February and the end of April.
This is rather unfortunate, because apart from fever I have few indicators to have a clue whether I am infected or not.
The feeling of belonging to a risk group is not very attractive either, but as long as I have the feeling that I am no different from last year at this time of the year I don't worry.
The next 2 weeks I will be at home anyway. Before that I was in the office between 2 and 3 days a week. I can do my job from anywhere, that is the good thing. So there is little change in my work, except that my business partners are now sometimes harder to reach.

The following is completely absurd: We often deal with products from China (articles for photo shootings which we receive as samples) and there has been radio silence for the last few weeks. Now that things are looking up in China and the crisis here is just beginning, they are starting to send us products again ...


----------



## merlinhimself

Everyone be safe!


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

jononotbono said:


> Wrong. I’m not some cretin panic buying pasta and toilet Roll and being selfish like “they” are. Thanks.


Got it. You are doing those things, but with a pure heart then? 🤣


----------



## jononotbono

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Got it. You are doing those things, but with a pure heart then? 🤣



The recording studio I work at has many employees and I did actually just go and buy this for everybody. I guess I still have a little bit of heart left despite being a cynical Brit. I’ll send you a roll but only if you promise to wash your hands on delivery.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

jononotbono said:


> The recording studio I work at has many employees and I did actually just go and buy this for everybody. I guess I still have a little bit of heart left despite being a cynical Brit. I’ll send you a roll but only if you promise to wash your hands on delivery.


And even more bad news:








Cocaine will not cure coronavirus: French officials


Cocaine is not a cure for coronavirus.




www.nydailynews.com


----------



## cuttime

Just don't double dip the chips!


----------



## Ashermusic

Lessons, gigs getting cancelled, by me and from others to me. C'est la vie.


----------



## sourcefor

Sucks, Lost alot of gigs and cannot even get any Lysol or Alcohol it's like the apocalypse out there..people are going too far, way too much panic! Guess I'll just stay home and make music!!!!


----------



## NoamL

jamwerks said:


> I imagine even our dev friends will be impacted. Probably impossible to hold large recording sessions for the next couple months. And a lot of us buyers will have less money to spend



Didn't even consider it until @JJP spoke up earlier - soon, recording sessions will be canceled for the foreseeable future. Hard news for our AFM colleagues & fellow artists. Also the release schedule for most movies will be pushed back. James Bond already, others to follow.



Greg said:


> Idk about you guys but times like these are when I search for advice from panicking internet strangers on forums...



All of us who CAN work from home must not just take responsibility for ourselves, we have a duty to society. Treating this lightly is very irresponsible. I'm sorry you think I'm panicking. Everything I've posted has a reliable science source. If it felt like an infodump, again, it's because I've been paying attention to this since early January and waiting for people to start cluing in. If you wish, don't listen to me, listen to Dr. Fauci & Dr. Messonnier. These are nonpartisan, career public health officials who have done groundbreaking research on infectious disease.


----------



## novaburst

THere is a good thing about this Virus and there is a bad thing, 

the bad thing is people are dieing from it, jobs are baing lost or business shutting down, its kind of amazing you go to bed one day and you wake up and the whole world has changed.

The good thing about this virus is it seems to have tied alot of countries togother and there seems to be a strong cumunity spirit and cooperation between those who seemed to hate each other.

I guess you can call it cynical, but its kind of nice to see even thoe it want last once the virus has gone or been defeated i guess its back to the same old ways of hate and distrust between countries.


----------



## bvaughn0402

NoamL said:


> Didn't even consider it until @JJP spoke up earlier - soon, recording sessions will be canceled for the foreseeable future. Hard news for our AFM colleagues & fellow artists. Also the release schedule for most movies will be pushed back. James Bond already, others to follow.



At one time, Apple was working with movie studios to offer "same day" or "following week" releases at a higher rental price (like $40 or so). But the movie studios bunked it.

While expensive, if you think of two movie tickets and snacks, that isn't a bad price to be able to watch at home near release.

It will be interesting to see if this comes back around if people are avoiding the theaters. I think something like this would surge that industry.


----------



## Greg

Social media distancing is important as well. We all know what stress does to our immune systems. Keep your heads on straight.


----------



## bvaughn0402

NoamL said:


> Yes. Zicam if you can find it (unlikely) or any kind of vitamin that has high doses of zinc. If you must go outside or otherwise risk exposure, take small sips of lukewarm water throughout the day. If you start to have a "getting sick but not sick yet feeling" take the Zicam/vitamins. All of these steps are aimed at the same thing. If you first get exposed to the virus it will be in your nasopharynx, then it will migrate to the bottom of your lungs. Drinking water will wash it down into your stomach instead. Zinc blocks most respiratory viruses from binding. We don't 100% know about whether it affects this one.



While I want to be careful to communicate this akin to "snake oil" ... I have seen in various channels that larger doses of Vit C, a fair amount of Vit D, and Zinc are great supplements to go with.

They are experimenting with intraveneous Vit C in Korea and China.

Keep in mind, though, that these type of measures aren't being used to "cure the virus." They are more to boost the immune system to fight the effects of the virus. The intravenous is being tested more because there is no other option. 

There are lots of knee-jerk reactions to this. Facebook and YouTube seem prone to label this as "fake news", while others dismiss it (probably because zealous people communicate it more like a "cure") or criticize it (e.g., "taking too much C causes kidney stones" ... which technically the 1-2 studies I've seen on this were observational and not experimental).

Here is an article on nutrition if anyone is interested: http://orthomolecular.org/resources...zuc_ZlQ9mFj7DNk5zXVuy92bAuDAx67vy6KXzqGiIVqoc


----------



## dzilizzi

Got to watch Facebook. There are a lot of anti-vaxxers/flat earthers/crazy people there. I'm not sure I'd trust much that come from Facebook that isn't from an official source.


----------



## dzilizzi

bvaughn0402 said:


> While I want to be careful to communicate this akin to "snake oil" ... I have seen in various channels that larger doses of Vit C, a fair amount of Vit D, and Zinc are great supplements to go with.
> 
> They are experimenting with intraveneous Vit C in Korea and China.
> 
> Keep in mind, though, that these type of measures aren't being used to "cure the virus." They are more to boost the immune system to fight the effects of the virus. The intravenous is being tested more because there is no other option.
> 
> There are lots of knee-jerk reactions to this. Facebook and YouTube seem prone to label this as "fake news", while others dismiss it (probably because zealous people communicate it more like a "cure") or criticize it (e.g., "taking too much C causes kidney stones" ... which technically the 1-2 studies I've seen on this were observational and not experimental).
> 
> Here is an article on nutrition if anyone is interested: http://orthomolecular.org/resources...zuc_ZlQ9mFj7DNk5zXVuy92bAuDAx67vy6KXzqGiIVqoc


This is actually interesting. My husband and I regularly take 1000mg vitamin C when we think we have a cold coming on or feel there are a lot of sick people around us. It works well for me since I don't really get sick. My husband gets sick a bit but not as bad. He is a smoker though, so things can be worse for him.


----------



## stigc56

Here in Denmark the borders will close down in 24 hours. Staying indoors in my studio working as usual but both me and my wife are worried.
Hope we will get through it.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

The checkout line at Ralph's today - and there are plenty of people behind me too. It's hard to get a good perspective from this picture, but there's a gap of maybe ten feet in front of this aisle before you get to the cashier. Normally there might be at most four people in front of you.

No eggs, no chicken, no toilet paper, a lot of bare shelves - which I've never seen before.

I almost had to throttle a no-IQ woman in the parking lot, something I do only rarely. After being gracious and letting her go first (she was coming from my left), she stopped to wait for a parking space, blocking me - while 15 cars went around the other side of her, taking my place in the line to find a space. When I got out and asked her to please back up five feet so I could get by, she started shouting at me.

{Extremely important edit for the thousands of people who care: there were also about ten cars waiting behind me, some stuck in the street waiting to go into the underground parking lot. I swear, you couldn't find a dumber person if you went to *Costco*.]

On the other hand, Trader Joe's had it together: they had people line up outside the store, rather than creating a clustershag inside. It went smoothly - although they also had bare shelves from all the panic buying.


----------



## Quasar

Uiroo said:


> Everything, sorry.
> 
> The panic makes people more cautious and that saves lifes, the downside being a shortage on toilet paper and desinfectant.
> If there was no media most people wouldn't know about it and a lot more people would've been dead already. If serious shit is going on, there's no way around panic, it's part of it.


Yep. During the so-called Spanish flu pandemic in 1918-19, most of the nations involved in The Great War actively suppressed news because they didn't want public panic, and they didn't want any social upheavals to interfere with the war effort. In the US, Wilson's Sedition Act was sometimes used to silence news reports about the virus. Many thousands of people died because public events were held as scheduled over the objections of health care professionals who wanted to cancel them. Evidence suggests that one parade held in Philadelphia may have caused the deaths of over 14,000 people there. 

Trivia bit: The reason it was called The Spanish flu is not because it originated or centered in Spain, but because Spain was not involved in the war, and news regarding the virus was uncensored and able to flow freely.


----------



## jononotbono

The only thing I’m going to rush out and buy is a pair of these! Gotta look good for the weekend.


----------



## BassClef

My wife reduced my toilet paper ration to 1/2 sheet per day!


----------



## sostenuto

Aren't we all / mostly impressed by advances of our society since exiting caves and trees. 

No difference locally; dominated by one of many 'Christian' denominations worldwide (not popemobile-world). Hoarded TP, hand sanitizer, etc., long ago. Most cannot spell 'christian'. 

Most will survive this, despite virtually infinite attempts to exploit it. No worries .... mostly 'the donald's' fault and OMG .... he has had more global impact since the 'first' coming. 
Covid-19 = / ~~ snakeoil ?? 

Keep a reasonable sense of humor folks. Treat daily media news much like SNL ... even though it lacks comparable talent.


----------



## barteredbride

Jeeeesus all you guys hang out and post here on the ´off topic´ forum as well??!!



I´m trapped here in my flat in Spain for 15 days because of coronavirus...but you guys are trapped in VI Control for a lifetime!


----------



## Monkey Man

Now _that's_ funny.


----------



## AEF

Had a national tour cut in half. Big loss of income but that doesnt concern me as much as the total paralysis that we are facing in the US right now. Completely unprepared for this, and our arcane health care system is badly exposed by it.


----------



## CT

My positive outlook is that if people are collectively smart enough, there is a lot to learn from all of this that can greatly improve our world going forward. I hope for that, rather than a return to business as usual once it's comfortable.


----------



## dzilizzi

I have a co-worker who doesn't really cook. Her husband makes a lot of money, so they mostly eat out. I was talking to her today. She's hoping if we do get stuck at home, that there will still be restaurants delivering.


----------



## Sears Poncho

dzilizzi said:


> There are a lot of anti-vaxxers/flat earthers/crazy people there. I'm not sure I'd trust much that come from Facebook that isn't from an official source.



"This is all a hoax by the libby libtards. More people die by (insert something stupid here) than this hoax. And it's a plot, by the deep dark state commie pinko reverse vampire mooslims to kill 10% of the population, then scoop the delicious goo from their brainzzzz. And hell yeah, the Clintons are behind it". - ex sister in-law


----------



## marclawsonmusic

miket said:


> if people are collectively smart enough



What planet do you live on? Where I live is full of morons buying toilet paper and bleach.


----------



## jononotbono

Well, I did try.


----------



## dzilizzi

I ordered toilet paper from Amazon. A big box. It is coming tomorrow. Hmm. Maybe I should sit on the porch and wait so no one steals it. Do you think I need a shotgun?  

I probably had enough for a couple weeks. But I really hate running out of toilet paper. I joke about it, but if my husband gets sick, he can kill a roll real quick blowing his nose. No matter that there are Kleenex boxes everywhere.


----------



## jonathanparham

producers on the gig I'm on just ordered a hiatus


----------



## Thundercat

barteredbride said:


> Jeeeesus all you guys hang out and post here on the ´off topic´ forum as well??!!
> 
> 
> 
> I´m trapped here in my flat in Spain for 15 days because of coronavirus...but you guys are trapped in VI Control for a lifetime!


What, you think you can leave? This is the hotel California of forums.

checkout anytime you like...


----------



## dzilizzi

I really feel bad for everyone affected by all these cancellations. Its times like these I'm very thankful for my non-musical telework job. Unlike other times when I wish my job was performing music all day. 

Although I'm worried @NoamL is very correct about the future, I'm really hoping this turns out to be more like the Swine Flu, which kind of petered out into relatively nothing compared to what was expected.


----------



## JJP

One other difficult aspect for musicians who lose work in the USA is that if we are not paid, we may also lose our health insurance next year.

The AFM just called for the US government to consider musicians as they allocate relief funds. 









AFM President Urges Relief for Gig Economy Workers - American Federation of Musicians


When considering funding assistance and relief for working people, Congress & other lawmakers should pay particular attention to those who work and perform in the entertainment industry.




www.afm.org


----------



## BlackDorito

Alex Fraser said:


> Work wise, it isn’t too much of a worry as I compose from home.
> 
> However, my wife suffers from anxiety and has been worried sick about it. So to relieve her worry a little, we found ourselves in the supermarket this morning on a pasta and canned food drive. Just enough to last a couple of weeks if we’re all forced into hermit mode.
> 
> Felt a bit daft but we have two young kids and a 9 month old baby with allergies. It is what it is.
> 
> My worry is that Boris and chums are already looking out of their depth..


Happy to swap him out for Trump.


----------



## emilio_n

I am worried about how is turning the situation in Europe. I am Spanish but living in Hong Kong. The things here are getting better and at least the number is still low.
The impact in my life consists of more than 2 months mainly 24h at home. Teaching in the universities online and playing more the keyboard. (And tempting to buy a lot of VI libraries!!)

Take care all of you!


----------



## dflood

Land of Missing Parts said:


> There is no "them". It's all humans on one team versus the virus.


And right now we are getting our asses kicked.


----------



## paoling

I'm Italian, but living in Barcelona. My mother and the rest of the FluffyAudio crew is in Lombardy. As long as I'm completely sure that they are safe, we can spend this isolation (I self quarantined here, even if it's not mandatory yet) to do something productive or just make this forced stay as fun as possible. And I suggest you to do the same, prepare for this. Don't wait for your government to act, the situation in UK and USA is worrying: they do very few tests (CNN reported that in March 10 CDC did 8 tests in total for coronavirus, while in Italy we do like 10.000 per day).

So the best way to act is to be responsible, to encourage others to be too. Don't go to concerts, avoid public transport if not necessary and make a plan. Protect your loved ones, especially the elderly and offer them to buy groceries so they can stay safe at home.


----------



## novaburst

Could we end up like this, the movie is about a virus that hit the world, with infected humans hunting those who are not infected, the movie is a few years old then when watched it seemed like a big fiction Si Fi but now its looking like a prediction or reality that is quite possible.


----------



## Sears Poncho

novaburst said:


> Could we end up like this,


I'm going with Night of the Comet. 80s girls and cheerleaders.


----------



## micrologus

I live in Southern Switzerland, near Italy. The situation is actually serious.


----------



## Michael Antrum

I was supposed to be working in Sierra Leone next week, but that's been called off.

I was also going to Frankfurt to Music Messe at the start of April but that's been cancelled too. RyanAir won't refund the flights - but i'm wondering if they will end up having to cancel the flights themselves.

I've lost some money and had some inconvenience, but it's pretty minor compared to what others will be facing up to shortly. I am desperately worried not only about those who get ill, but all those who will suffer financial hardship as a result of all this. I'm already hearing of lay offs in restaurants, hotels and much of the hospitality industry.

Whether or not the virus causes large numbers of deaths or not, the economic damage is going to be significant.



Sears Poncho said:


> I'm going with Night of the Comet. 80s girls and cheerleaders.



Like movies, girls in the 80's were the best. The best decade ever.

Oddly enough I married an 80's girl in 1990. For our 30th anniversary in August we are going back to the future......


----------



## toomanynotes

givemenoughrope said:


> ^please translate this into American thx





Morning Coffee said:


> If there was no media, this problem (and the panic that has followed it), wouldn't even exist, actually, it would, but it would be less of a worry..


spoken like a true prodigy


----------



## toomanynotes

sekkosiki said:


> Actually it's the opposite, the virus hates hot temperatures but loves cold. We'd be screwed, if we didn't have so many saunas!


Huh? Saunas are the worst breeding ground!!!! Moisture?? This is the problem, so many ppl are simply given false information.


----------



## toomanynotes

I cannot wait for Greek summer to come fast and kick the virus' ass! I hope all the countries restrain the virus and recover as soon as possible.
[/QUOTE]

Hi,
which part of Greece are you from? I find it ridiculous that the Turks have thrown the ‘male’ migrants into your problems...especially with this pandemic around. Highly stupid and irresponsible of them.


----------



## robgb

I'm in the death-susceptible age range, so I'm basically stuck at home.


----------



## patrick76

This is fantastic. If you haven't seen it yet, it is worth watching and has a wonderful ending.


----------



## Patrick.K

In France, after our president's speech on television, people rushed to the supermarkets to stock up on supplies ... They also stock up on toilet paper ... I didn't know we could eat it! .That's really nonsense !.
I dare not imagine if there was war or an invasion of Aliens from another planet! ... I think of the joke of Orson Welles (War of Worlds) in the 1930s on the radio..
But seriously it could happen too, who knows ?. Let us remain optimistic !.This is just a tiny virus and there will be others ... unfortunately.
But I try to continue to live normally, and especially not to watch too much the TV channels, which speak only about that night and day !.
Don't panic, and I do not make provisions, and that does not change much for me, because I have always been a hand washing maniac .
Shows, schools, colleges, universities, sporting events are canceled, (Apple also just announced the closure of these stores), and reduced transport, it starts tomorrow Monday and of course telework for those who can. But the funniest is that they have not canceled the municipal elections for the mayor's !. We really walk on our heads !.
I will remain confined (a little ) and make music, hoping that my faithful IMac does not also catch a virus !

Warning !...You must avoid downloading vst's from Italy , but we can continue to eat Pizza


----------



## Patrick.K

Commentaires


robgb said:


> I'm in the death-susceptible age range, so I'm basically stuck at home.


Me too, well almost, and I think that if the doctors lack resuscitation equipment, they will choose to save someone younger, I heard a journalist talking about this, if such a situation should occur. .
My IMac is also getting old, and I have never installed an anti virus, and the problem is that
unfortunately in France all Apples stores are closed .. I thought Macs were less exposed to viruses?.
But do not panic, it will work out, let's remain optimistic !.


----------



## jononotbono

So I go back to the same Supermarket as I did last night and I can't believe it! WTF! I knew I shouldn't have been so nice yesterday and bought toilet roll for other people.


----------



## jononotbono

It's gonna be getting very much like Lord of the Flies round these parts soon!


----------



## youngpokie

jononotbono said:


> It's gonna be getting very much like Lord of the Flies round these parts soon!



Found something for you


----------



## wst3

here in the Philadelphia western suburbs we are a hot spot for PA, most of the PA confirmed cases are in my county, they don't get any more specific than that, no idea if or how many in my township or neighboring townships and boroughs. So that's a bit of a drag.

Thursday, late in the day, the Governor closed all schools in my county. He also advised all non-essential facilities be closed. Friday he closed all the schools in the state, and made the non-essential list larger.

As a result concerts are cancalled, professional and community theatres are closed, as are most gyms, and some retail. Many of these will suffer financially, some may not recover quickly. One of the sad consequences is most high school musicals were cancelled. For seniors this was their last show in high school. Worse high school and college sports are cancelled - meaning some who were shooting for a scholarship or slot in the draft may not get there.

Only the community theatre bit affects me directly, but all of these affect me to one degree or another.

Then there is the day gig. The company closed all the offices for a day on Friday while they sorted things out. Come Monday we are free to work from home or go in to the office - not sure what I'll do, but probably I'll go in. My kids will be home for two weeks, so I may spend some days working from home to insure they stay caught up with their school work.

Universities are closing their campuses - professors are scrambling to figure out how to complete the semester via distance learning. No insult meant, but some of these professors are not tech savvy. My brother is an structural engineering professor and he is tech savvy, but most of his colleagues are a decade or two older than he, and have no desire to use technology to teach. Probably different in other disciplines, but the infrastructure will be strained.

My company, for example, ran out of licenses for the VPN that lets us connect to company servers. OOPS!

And many of our clients are banning us from coming to their sites - so that's gotta hurt.

All in all it is a mess. Yes, we have empty shelves in grocery stores, that's minor. It's more the large scale disruption to daily life.

On a positive note, one of our township supervisors is organizing an effort to get food and supplies to those who should not leave their homes, be they infected or susceptible. And people are signing up to help in droves. By the time I emailed him late Thursday he no longer needed volunteers, but he kept my name just in case.

While I am old enough to be in a higher risk group I am in good health overall, although I do wish I had quit smoking a long time ago. So I guess it is sit and wait. Not fun, but neither is it life threatening for now.


----------



## Patrick.K

wst3 said:


> here in the Philadelphia western suburbs we are a hot spot for PA, most of the PA confirmed cases are in my county, they don't get any more specific than that, no idea if or how many in my township or neighboring townships and boroughs. So that's a bit of a drag.
> 
> Thursday, late in the day, the Governor closed all schools in my county. He also advised all non-essential facilities be closed. Friday he closed all the schools in the state, and made the non-essential list larger.
> 
> As a result concerts are cancalled, professional and community theatres are closed, as are most gyms, and some retail. Many of these will suffer financially, some may not recover quickly. One of the sad consequences is most high school musicals were cancelled. For seniors this was their last show in high school. Worse high school and college sports are cancelled - meaning some who were shooting for a scholarship or slot in the draft may not get there.
> 
> Only the community theatre bit affects me directly, but all of these affect me to one degree or another.
> 
> Then there is the day gig. The company closed all the offices for a day on Friday while they sorted things out. Come Monday we are free to work from home or go in to the office - not sure what I'll do, but probably I'll go in. My kids will be home for two weeks, so I may spend some days working from home to insure they stay caught up with their school work.
> 
> Universities are closing their campuses - professors are scrambling to figure out how to complete the semester via distance learning. No insult meant, but some of these professors are not tech savvy. My brother is an structural engineering professor and he is tech savvy, but most of his colleagues are a decade or two older than he, and have no desire to use technology to teach. Probably different in other disciplines, but the infrastructure will be strained.
> 
> My company, for example, ran out of licenses for the VPN that lets us connect to company servers. OOPS!
> 
> And many of our clients are banning us from coming to their sites - so that's gotta hurt.
> 
> All in all it is a mess. Yes, we have empty shelves in grocery stores, that's minor. It's more the large scale disruption to daily life.
> 
> On a positive note, one of our township supervisors is organizing an effort to get food and supplies to those who should not leave their homes, be they infected or susceptible. And people are signing up to help in droves. By the time I emailed him late Thursday he no longer needed volunteers, but he kept my name just in case.
> 
> While I am old enough to be in a higher risk group I am in good health overall, although I do wish I had quit smoking a long time ago. So I guess it is sit and wait. Not fun, but neither is it life threatening for now.


Welcome to the club ... it's the same in France!


----------



## Sears Poncho

jononotbono said:


> So I go back to the same Supermarket as I did last night and I can't believe it! WTF!


I went yesterday, after hearing horror stories of no food/tp/craziness. Was like normal overall. Pasta was kinda low, but apparently people don't like thick noodles. I bought 8 boxes of Fettucine.  Everything else was fine. I have enough food for a month. I am very grateful that I had the $$ to do that. I keep thinking how fortunate I am. I'm not wealthy in any way, not even close. Still, I mailed off April's rent today, paid car insurance for 6 months. So many people are hurting, it's heartbreaking to watch this unfold.


----------



## Patrick.K

youngpokie said:


> Found something for you


You save me, I only have Newspaper's
Can you send it to me via FedEx ... It's urgent !.


----------



## jononotbono

Sears Poncho said:


> I went yesterday, after hearing horror stories of no food/tp/craziness. Was like normal overall. Pasta was kinda low, but apparently people don't like thick noodles. I bought 8 boxes of Fettucine.  Everything else was fine. I have enough food for a month. I am very grateful that I had the $$ to do that. I keep thinking how fortunate I am. I'm not wealthy in any way, not even close. Still, I mailed off April's rent today, paid car insurance for 6 months. So many people are hurting, it's heartbreaking to watch this unfold.



I'll just eat salads. Few people in America do that so there's loads. BOOM


----------



## Patrick.K

Sears Poncho said:


> I went yesterday, after hearing horror stories of no food/tp/craziness. Was like normal overall. Pasta was kinda low, but apparently people don't like thick noodles. I bought 8 boxes of Fettucine.  Everything else was fine. I have enough food for a month. I am very grateful that I had the $$ to do that. I keep thinking how fortunate I am. I'm not wealthy in any way, not even close. Still, I mailed off April's rent today, paid car insurance for 6 months. So many people are hurting, it's heartbreaking to watch this unfold.



It's sad, I too am not rich, and I do not mind eating pasta every day, there are more unhappy than us, I hope that care in hospitals in the US is free for those who don't have insurance?


----------



## Patrick.K

NoamL said:


> I have been paying attention to this situation since early January & have been taking my own steps to prepare since Jan 20. Got out of LA Feb 4.
> 
> I have a biology degree (double majored with music) and can read science papers & preprints with decent literacy. The situation is extremely serious. Do not take this virus lightly.
> 
> This week the thing I have been fearing for about 40 days has finally happened. Credible media, _The Atlantic_, reports *Italy is triaging whether to vent patients**.* I'll explain what that means in a bit.
> 
> The tidal wave is coming, unfortunately our governments have been horrifyingly negligent and we're going to get hit like China.
> 
> The number one thing I would advise is to NOT go and panic buy stuff. *You are already too late to buy things like sanitizer, people who have been paying attention got it first. STAY AT HOME.* Starting this weekend do not go outside except once a week to buy groceries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll try to summarize and dispel some myths:
> 
> 
> *It is not the flu.* It causes ARDS (breathing failure from pneumonia filling your lungs with fluid), the same thing that killed people with SARS. That is why some scientists call it SARS-CoV2 ("the second SARS coronavirus").
> 
> 
> *THIS IS NOT A DISEASE OF THE ELDERLY ALONE.* I'll explain why in a bit.
> 
> 
> *Treatment is supportive only.* If you get mild disease you won't need any intervention or at worst you'll breathe an oxygen tank for a few weeks. Patients who get worse need a tube down their throat to help them breathe, and when they get ARDS the last ditch defense is a machine called a ventilator. It takes small breaths for the patient while keeping their lungs inflated like a balloon on a helium tank. That is because inflation/deflation of the lungs inflames the pneumonia, like rubbing a bruise.
> 
> 
> *Even if it seems like some places are better or worse, the truth is the entire West is in the same boat. *You will hear over and over "There are only [X] cases in [My Country] and we're much better here than [Bad Country]" because people don't understand logistic growth. This video is a good visualization, just watch the first minute. Supposing that the world continues business as normal, places like Washington state are only days behind becoming like Italy or Iran. The transition from "a few hundred cases" to "disaster" is only a difference of two fortnights because of those exponential curves! However, government actions can change the curve.
> 
> This chart explains it well, notice the logarithmic scale.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Unfortunately, the true infection rate is much larger than the case number.* The virus spreads throughout the population, but during the initial phase of each local epidemic, only the people who get sick very quickly & severely get hospitalized and diagnosed. These individuals are like "landmines" in any local population. When they blow up we know the virus is here. But it's not just "jumping" from landmine to landmine, it's going everywhere. The government is not lying to you about the numbers, they are just reporting what is known with certainty. Academic/scientific discussion is aware of the undercount.
> 
> 
> *There is some +/- uncertainty about the true fatality ratio** (deaths per infections) currently estimated at about 2 per 100.* People who get mild versions of the disease never get diagnosed and do not get counted into the number at the bottom of the fraction, making the virus appear more deadly. On the other hand, it takes many more weeks to recover from the disease fully than to perish from it. Scientists in China are underway with studies that take a random sample of a population and count the people with antibodies which is the best method for establishing total infections.
> 
> 
> *T**he media's focus on the fatality rate IS WRONG. *The rate is somewhere near 10x as bad as influenza. Still, at the beginning of the epidemic, only our "landmines" get hospitalized and they get expert, personal, high tech care. But the logistic growth means that even if "most people will be fine," the healthcare system still gets overloaded with young and middle aged people who are in the 5% of severe ICU cases or up to 20% who need some form of hospitalization... FOR WEEKS.
> 
> 
> *Overburden is the true public health risk & will cause most of the deaths.* If/Once your area has a healthcare system overburden, it's down to you & your body vs the virus, and the virus is capable of killing anyone. For example, those ventilator machines I mentioned are in short supply and need expert therapists to operate them. Most hospitals in the USA run at 90%+ capacity during flu season. Now we have this new disease on top. Once hospitals are saturated, the death rates will go up. The breaking point is being exceeded now in the worst-hit part of Europe, northern Italy, which actually has more hospital beds per capita than the US average.
> 
> 
> *It's been in USA since February.* Genetic analysis of samples from one of the Washington cases ( https://bedford.io/blog/ncov-cryptic-transmission/ ) suggests SIX WEEKS of un-traced transmission _before_ people started presenting at hospitals. This doesn't mean that someone you bumped into at the supermarket on Feb 12 had it, just that it's been spreading from whatever one or two or three digit number of imported cases we initially got from China.
> 
> 
> *There will not be a vaccine in 2020 short of a genunine Act Of God. Seriously, ignore Trump completely.* Dr. Fauci & Dr. Messonnier are the real deal, listen to them. Drug trials will be done sooner than a vaccine and some drugs useful against HIV are looking hopeful.
> 
> 
> *Do not bet on it going away "in warm weather."* We don't 100% know why the flu season goes away in summer but the end of school may have something to do with it. Anyway, this virus is a relative of MERS and SARS, both of which had no problem with a warm summer or the Arabian climate, and this new disease could be like them or not.
> 
> 
> *Concern over "testing kits" is too late for USA and Europe.* This is not HIV. It is a fast moving global pandemic. The point of testing people is to isolate them from the population and test everyone they've hugged in the last week. Once a government's capacity for contact tracing is overwhelmed, they will still try, and testing can still have some impact, however the cat is out of the bag.
> 
> 
> *This is "less controllable" (not worse overall) than ebola. Scientists worldwide knew this since about February 4.* Containing disease depends on the specific characteristics of what we're fighting. The worst news we got about this virus was in early February when we found out from Chinese scientists that it can have presymptomatic transmission via droplet route PLUS there is an incubation period that averages somewhat under a week. That is entirely different from the stupid ebola scare six years ago where you were only really at risk if you got splattered with fluids from a very, very visibly sick person, and then you would RAPIDLY fall ill and be immobilized yourself. Ebola is like the zombie plague from 28 Days Later (get some blood in your eye, you 'bout to die) while Covid19 is more or less a deadly version of the common cold.
> 
> 
> *Once a country has passed the containment phase, there will either be massive deaths or massive "public health interventions."* PHI is a phrase you'll hear in the coming weeks that is jargon for a super-quarantine, a shutdown of society. Not just canceling convention events or the NBA. Imagine a regime like you are not allowed to leave your apartment complex except once a week to get groceries and your temp is taken (in USA likely by mobilized National Guard) on entry and exit. Scifi scenario? This has been happening in China for all of February and into March now _for hundreds of millions_ of people, a population greater than the entire USA. I am not suggesting this as a horror story - this is what we SHOULD DO and what we probably eventually will do.
> 
> 
> *There is no easy way to fight the virus.* All this stuff you hear about "wash your hands and don't touch your face" is about preventing fomite transmission. Sick guy touches something, you touch it hours later, then you touch your nose. The only real way to fight the virus is social isolation. And not this "no more 100 people events" thing, that just slows it a bit. See the point above - real social isolation. In the same vein, all the "temporary" school closures we're having are not temporary.


----------



## Patrick.K

Thank you very much for all this information which is of an implacable logic, it scares anyway.


----------



## Patrick.K

Nico said:


> Tomorrow municipal elections are held in France, where my family lives. I was hoping they would be postponed, but the government decided to maintain them. They say it will be safe and that everybody should bring their own pen... My sister called the grandparents to dissuade them from going to vote. I know my grandpa will not be happy about that, as he never misses an election, but hopefully, he will listen to us.


They bought millions of pens for the municipal elections, but I don't think it will change much, other than spending more money on elections that may be postponed.
Politicians can do anything to be elected, they should keep their energy and tax dollars to buy medical equipment and raise the salaries of doctors in hospitals.
For the first time I will not go to vote, not because of the coronavirus, but because politicians disgust me. I am angry


----------



## NoamL

toomanynotes said:


> Huh? Saunas are the worst breeding ground!!!! Moisture?? This is the problem, so many ppl are simply given false information.



Apologies in advance if this is a miscommunication between languages, but the only "breeding ground" for the virus is the human lung. It cannot reproduce outside a person. This is not a bacteria or mold that likes to grow in damp corners. It _can_ stay on surfaces if deposited there by a cough/sneeze/breath/touch etc.


----------



## Consona

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Not really worried for myself - healthy, very athletic, resillient, I feel confident that I'd shake it off. Bit worried about my old folks.


BTW, an interesting thing about the spanish flu: the better immune system you have, the higher chance you die. The reaction of the body to that virus was so strong that it was like some autoimmune disease, your own immune system destroyed your body. So the most affected group were young healthy people.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Consona said:


> BTW, an interesting thing about the spanish flu: the better immune system you have, the higher chance you die. The reaction of the body to that virus was so strong that it was like some autoimmune disease, your own immune system destroyed your body. So the most affected group were young healthy people.



Trying to make me miserable?


----------



## Uiroo

Consona said:


> BTW, an interesting thing about the spanish flu: the better immune system you have, the higher chance you die. The reaction of the body to that virus was so strong that it was like some autoimmune disease, your own immune system destroyed your body. So the most affected group were young healthy people.


Yeah, but that's NOT the case with Covid-19 (just to clarify, you probably know that)


----------



## Consona

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Trying to make me miserable?


This coronavirus is not like the spanish flu, but I think it's interesting to know how complicated these situations can be.


----------



## ghobii

wst3 said:


> here in the Philadelphia western suburbs we are a hot spot for PA, most of the PA confirmed cases are in my county, they don't get any more specific than that, no idea if or how many in my township or neighboring townships and boroughs. So that's a bit of a drag.



Hey, I live in that county too! I was already working from home all week because we had a visitor from Belgium in our office who tested positive for COVID-19 when he got home. We are now working from home indefinitely. My Wife works for the school district and was told she'll be paid for the initial 2weeks the schools are closed, but beyond that is an unknown.

My son is supposed to get married in May, but now we're wondering if we'll have to postpone.


----------



## NoamL

Good article in The Atlantic about social distancing: https://www.theatlantic.com/family/...irus-what-does-social-distancing-mean/607927/

This whole "social distancing" thing is weird. Just canceling gatherings over size N will not bend the curve. It's probably an intermediate step that we have to walk society through before imposing lockdown. I suppose culture & political differences between America and PRC come into play here. We have to go through this make-pretend phase of relying on individuals to voluntarily "Self isolate" while getting them used to the absence of things like organized sports, and then the government can step in when voluntary individual action "unfortunately is not enough."


----------



## InLight-Tone

I'm a fulltime RVer with my wife and we move every 2-3 weeks migrating North to South with the seasons usually staying in the deserts of Arizona and California in the winter, then head to the Sierras for the summers. Hopefully domestic travel doesn't get TOO restrictive?!? At the same time, an RV is the perfect place to self isolate and be fairly self-sufficient if need be...


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

youngpokie said:


> You're saying this intermediate step is necessary to make people get used to the idea of self-isolation, so that once the infections are finally out of control the government can step in and order forced isolation backed by the military, like China?


I'm not sure how it'll play out in the US, but I do believe these two things.

1. If people don't drastically change behavior to isolate themselves (by staying home), the number of infected will keep growing.

2. As the number of infected keeps growing, people will become increasingly be more willing to tolerate drastic isolation measures.

I also think overconfidence paves the way for this pandemic. People have too much confidence that they will be able to go out into the world and be in control of whether they get it or not.


----------



## novaburst

Well this Nation seems to be on it.....









Scientists in Israel likely to soon announce the development of coronavirus vaccine


Israeli daily Ha'aretz, quoting medical sources, reported on Thursday that scientists at the Israel's Institute for Biological Research, supervised by the Prime Minister's office, have recently had a significant breakthrough in understanding the biological mechanism and qualities of the virus.




economictimes.indiatimes.com


----------



## jononotbono

youngpokie said:


> Found something for you



Hey, I'm not desperate. You should notice that I've left half a sheet. Street status.


----------



## Batrawi

IMO, whatever isolation & hygienic measures that are currently being taken is nothing but "delaying the inevitable" whereby each and everyone on this planet will eventually be infected! 

Natural selection shall take its course anyways, so I say lets speed up the process rather than waiting in fear. On this note............."CAUGH"


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Batrawi said:


> IMO, whatever isolation & hygienic measures that are currently being taken is nothing but "delaying the inevitable" whereby each and everyone on this planet will eventually be infected!
> 
> Natural selection shall take its course anyways, so I say lets speed up the process rather than waiting in fear. On this note............."CAUGH"


Tell that to China, where the number of new infections is going down. Because of serious isolation measures.


----------



## Guffy

In Norway only grocery stores, pharmacies, the very essential is open. (still some electronics and clothing stores but i suspect they close on monday)
Airports and borders closed.
They are considering bringing in the military to force people out of their cabins in areas where there's limited medical help. Forcing people to stay at home. Quite crazy.

I'm stuck in a house with people working from home. Just 4 days in and i'm starting to go a little nuts. 

People started stockpiling canned foods, rice, meat, but the supply is good so it keeps coming. I don't know why people are acting this way, there's no shortage of food.
Atleast people don't seem to stockpile toilet paper..


----------



## Batrawi

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Tell that to China, where the number of new infections is going down. Because of serious isolation measures.


It will go back to them later, from other careless countries/people. That's just a momentary deceptive victory


----------



## Alex Fraser

jononotbono said:


> It's gonna be getting very much like Lord of the Flies round these parts soon!


We ended up ordering loo roll in from Amazon. Seriously. That’s the only way we could get them. Not quite what Prime was designed for..


----------



## youngpokie

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I'm not sure how it'll play out in the US, but I do believe these two things.
> 
> 1. If people don't drastically change behavior to isolate themselves (by staying home), the number of infected will keep growing.
> 
> 2. As the number of infected keeps growing, people will become increasingly be more willing to tolerate drastic isolation measures.



I agree with you, even if people are completely ignoring social distancing pleas at the moment. But I'm just not sure "social distancing" is some kind of intermediary step deliberately implemented to prepare the ground for the forced quarantine, China-style.

I think what's happening instead is the government policy is being adjusted in real-time in direct response to the amount of panic and hysteria. The government put in place rules a long time ago to have FDA control and approve testing for novel epidemic viruses, etc. During the last epidemic, national emergency wasn't even declared until more than 10,000 died in the US and even that high number was less than a third than the usual amount of traffic fatalities annually. There was no media circus on any level comparable to what's happening now.

But now that we're in a full blown panic mode, all these policies are being thrown out of the window one by one because they are not "perceived" to be enough when everyone is preparing for the world to end by May.

The media is looking for another Katrina and because no politician in the world wants be branded as not doing enough to fight the epidemic, all governments are rushing to respond, destroying their economies in the process.

EDIT: And by the way, one industry that has an immediate financial benefit from panic and is actually making _more money_ _right now_ is the media, including the Atlantic.

So, I think the social distancing is one of these things, part of the kitchen sink strategy, rather than some kind of master plan.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

youngpokie said:


> But now that we're in a full blown panic mode, all these policies are being thrown out of the window one by one because they are not "perceived" to be enough when everyone is preparing for the world to end by May.


Just tune out that drama.

Stay home, stay away from people, stop this things from spreading.

The bravery required of (most of) us in this moment is to be willing to cancel all plans, stay home, and have a boring life for next few weeks.


----------



## Patrick.K

Alex Fraser said:


> We ended up ordering loo roll in from Amazon. Seriously. That’s the only way we could get them. Not quite what Prime was designed for..


I don't understand why people buy so much toilet paper (loo roll).
For rice and pasta, I can understand, but for paper? ... if someone has a rational explanation, I will be less stupid afterwards.


----------



## Uiroo

Batrawi said:


> IMO, whatever isolation & hygienic measures that are currently being taken is nothing but "delaying the inevitable" whereby each and everyone on this planet will eventually be infected!
> 
> Natural selection shall take its course anyways, so I say lets speed up the process rather than waiting in fear. On this note............."CAUGH"


I didn't thought I have to explain this to anyone, but here you go:
Hospitals will soon be at its limits, meaning they'll be unable to treat new incoming people, even if that means their death.
That's the situation in Italy where in some parts of the country the causalities are twice as high because doctors need to decide who lives. This will get only worse.

So the goal is to "delay the inevitable" as much as possible to there are not so much sick people at a time but rather over a longer period of time, so that they can get the life-saving treatment they need.

But yeah, given how well you have understood the issue, natural selection will play a role.


----------



## youngpokie

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Just tune out that drama.
> 
> Stay home, stay away from people, stop this things from spreading.
> 
> The bravery required of (most of) us in this moment is to be willing to cancel all plans, stay home, and have a boring life for next few weeks.



I'm an introvert, so no problem with social distancing for me. Unless of course I run out of toilet paper...


----------



## Kony

Batrawi said:


> IMO, whatever isolation & hygienic measures that are currently being taken is nothing but "delaying the inevitable" whereby each and everyone on this planet will eventually be infected!
> 
> Natural selection shall take its course anyways, so I say lets speed up the process rather than waiting in fear. On this note............."CAUGH"


Not everyone was infected by the plague in the 1600s....


----------



## Batrawi

Kony said:


> Not everyone was infected by the plague in the 1600s....


I'm no historian, but 2020 is definitely more evolved & active in terms of transportation and mixing cultures than 1600s. I'm also no doctor, but plague was much easier to detect than a virus that you can hardly differentiate from a common flu/cold, not to mention its symptoms that appear at late stages.


----------



## gsilbers

Im from a 3rd world country and im noticing some similarities with what happens during crisis.

crisis happens>people panic and over buy and hoard everything.
No more prodcuts.
inflation goes through the roof.

im seeing friends instagrams feed through out the US and its crazy how empty the supermarkets are.
a few more weeks of this plus chinas slow down in manufacturing plus the Feds response on lowering interest rates so low. stock market is now going wild with speculation but once school , colleges and
workplaces and restaurants close, not to mention film productions etc..
its going to slow down that poeple will start loosing jobs. not finding money to buy on excessive priced items and not spending.

ive seen some post on the EU on how the goverment is ensuring that there is food and so on. but im not seeing anything like that in the US.


----------



## Gingerbread

Patrick9152 said:


> I don't understand why people buy so much toilet paper (loo roll).
> For rice and pasta, I can understand, but for paper? ... if someone has a rational explanation, I will be less stupid afterwards.


For a single person like me, if I catch the virus, I won't be able to leave my home for probably 5 or more weeks. Being single, no one is doing my grocery errands for me. So I will need food AND yes, toilet paper (among other things) for that period of time. Pretty sensible, it seems to me, to be prepared.

And it's stuff I'd be buying anyway, if usually on a more gradual and extended time schedule.


----------



## chrisr

Gingerbread said:


> For a single person like me, if I catch the virus, I won't be able to leave my home for probably 5 or more weeks. Being single, no one is doing my grocery errands for me. So I will need food AND yes, toilet paper (among other things) for that period of time. Pretty sensible, it seems to me, to be prepared.
> 
> And it's stuff I'd be buying anyway, if usually on a more gradual and extended time schedule.



The problem is that the store doesn't have 5 weeks worth of supplies for everybody in stock - so somebody else is going to go without.

and... 5 weeks?? If you catch the virus you'll be done in two weeks - is there some new info I've missed??

There's a very strong argument that the greater problems facing the world in the coming weeks/months will be more to do with dealing with the social disruption caused by people acting in the way that you're describing.

You can wash your arse with water, by the way - millions of people do it every day - super easy.


----------



## PaulBrimstone

Patrick9152 said:


> I don't understand why people buy so much toilet paper (loo roll).
> For rice and pasta, I can understand, but for paper? ... if someone has a rational explanation, I will be less stupid afterwards.


Well, not being French, most of them don't have, or understand, bidets...


----------



## NoamL

youngpokie said:


> You're saying this intermediate step is necessary to make people get used to the idea of self-isolation, so that once the infections are finally out of control the government can step in and order forced isolation backed by the military, like China?



I really can't guess what form enforcement will take, but yes, a much more widespread and forced isolation. It really shouldn't be surprising that we will eventually take measures "like China." There were some things about the Chinese population that made the virus hit incredibly hard like how the vast majority of men there are smokers, but as for the need for strict isolation, that's just purely a matter of infections per capita. There are _right now_ 100 cases per 100k people in China's Hubei province; in Italy 20 cases per 100k, in South Korea 15 cases per 100k. Of course these numbers grow logistically unless you have at least a partial shutdown of society. Keep in mind that the quarantine of Hubei Province began on Jan 23 when China had less than ONE case per 100k population there.

The later governments act, the worse and longer a regional quarantine will be. A regional quarantine is probably (?) impossible in the USA for constitutional reasons, so it'll be national.


----------



## gsilbers

gsilbers said:


> Im from a 3rd world country and im noticing some similarities with what happens during crisis.
> 
> crisis happens>people panic and over buy and hoard everything.
> No more prodcuts.
> inflation goes through the roof.
> 
> im seeing friends instagrams feed through out the US and its crazy how empty the supermarkets are.
> a few more weeks of this plus chinas slow down in manufacturing plus the Feds response on lowering interest rates so low. stock market is now going wild with speculation but once school , colleges and
> workplaces and restaurants close, not to mention film productions etc..
> its going to slow down that poeple will start loosing jobs. not finding money to buy on excessive priced items and not spending.
> 
> ive seen some post on the EU on how the goverment is ensuring that there is food and so on. but im not seeing anything like that in the US.




here is some evidence








Coronavirus is wreaking havoc on Chinese food producers, sending inflation soaring


Last month the inflation rate for food and tobacco in China clocked in at 15.2%.



fortune.com


----------



## NoamL

youngpokie said:


> EDIT: And by the way, one industry that has an immediate financial benefit from panic and is actually making _more money_ _right now_ is the media, including the Atlantic.



Is that why NYT just dropped their paywall for all coronavirus articles?

You might as well accuse this of being a plot by scientists to get more funding (the major science publishing companies have _also_ dropped all paywalls for Covid19 research around the time of Chinese New Year).

The idea that this is all a thinly veiled media hysteria anti Trump plot doesn't comport with the fact that the swiftest and so far most draconian action was taken in China. The entire rest of the world is playing catchup. USA government response has been horrible, that's a fact. We had months of heads up. The main problem with the response is not anything the government is doing now, but the fact that there was no pandemic prep in place. The stock market shot up the other day, why? Because the Pres finally resorted to asking a higher power for help - corporate America. People have more faith in Google than the White House.


----------



## givemenoughrope

NoamL said:


> Is that why NYT just dropped their paywall for all coronavirus articles?
> 
> You might as well accuse this of being a plot by scientists to get more funding (the major science publishing companies have _also_ dropped all paywalls for Covid19 research around the time of Chinese New Year).



This is only thing you've posted that I take issue with thus far. Disaster Capitalism is a thing if it's an earthquake or an unending war. Ask Haiti about the IMF. Same concept with people reselling TP at exorbitant prices. The media are no different. 



NoamL said:


> The idea that this is all a thinly veiled media hysteria anti Trump plot doesn't comport with the fact that the swiftest and so far most draconian action was taken in China. The entire rest of the world is playing catchup. USA government response has been horrible, that's a fact. We had months of heads up. The main problem with the response is not anything the government is doing now, but the fact that there was no pandemic prep in place. The stock market shot up the other day, why? Because the Pres finally resorted to asking a higher power for help - corporate America. People have more faith in Google than the White House.



No argument there. I think I'd rather be in Italy now than what is possibly coming here. Maybe it's not too late to drive to Idaho.


----------



## Fever Phoenix

all my theater projects are canceled, all my live gigs are canceled,
most of my singing students are in quarantene.

thank god I had a good year 2019 and I have a little back end income through royalties..

crazy crazy crazy..

I just got back to Switzerland from Cape Verde, where there was no sign of the virus and life was simple and warm and happy.. 

I am a bit overwhelmed with some of the behaviour here atm (hoarding, panic, angsty vibes..)

🤷‍♂️

hope you are well, guys..

I will have a lot of time to practice and write the next few weeks..


----------



## PaulBrimstone

NoamL said:


> Is that why NYT just dropped their paywall for all coronavirus articles?
> 
> You might as well accuse this of being a plot by scientists to get more funding (the major science publishing companies have _also_ dropped all paywalls for Covid19 research around the time of Chinese New Year).
> 
> The idea that this is all a thinly veiled media hysteria anti Trump plot doesn't comport with the fact that the swiftest and so far most draconian action was taken in China. The entire rest of the world is playing catchup. USA government response has been horrible, that's a fact. We had months of heads up. The main problem with the response is not anything the government is doing now, but the fact that there was no pandemic prep in place. The stock market shot up the other day, why? Because the Pres finally resorted to asking a higher power for help - corporate America. People have more faith in Google than the White House.


Quite right, @NoamL, and the New Yorker and others...


----------



## BlackDorito

Hoarding TP does have its benefits:


----------



## novaburst

Israeli-made oral vaccine for coronavirus on track, but testing will take months


State-funded Migal Galilee institute has been working for 4 years on a vaccine that could be customized for various viruses, so it had a head start when COVID-19 emerged




www.timesofisrael.com





Any one for testing


----------



## AEF

NoamL said:


> Good article in The Atlantic about social distancing: https://www.theatlantic.com/family/...irus-what-does-social-distancing-mean/607927/
> 
> This whole "social distancing" thing is weird. Just canceling gatherings over size N will not bend the curve. It's probably an intermediate step that we have to walk society through before imposing lockdown. I suppose culture & political differences between America and PRC come into play here. We have to go through this make-pretend phase of relying on individuals to voluntarily "Self isolate" while getting them used to the absence of things like organized sports, and then the government can step in when voluntary individual action "unfortunately is not enough."



Perhaps the PRC should have made live animal markets illegal before the third major epidemic occurred.


----------



## Gingerbread

chrisr said:


> The problem is that the store doesn't have 5 weeks worth of supplies for everybody in stock - so somebody else is going to go without.
> 
> and... 5 weeks?? If you catch the virus you'll be done in two weeks - is there some new info I've missed??
> 
> There's a very strong argument that the greater problems facing the world in the coming weeks/months will be more to do with dealing with the social disruption caused by people acting in the way that you're describing.
> 
> You can wash your arse with water, by the way - millions of people do it every day - super easy.


As I see it, the fact that stores don't have that kind of inventory is exactly how this virus will be especially disruptive and problematic. From my perspective, the best way to end the spread of this disease is for everyone to truly self-isolate and quarantine, not going outside virtually at all for the next month or so. Yes, that _does_ mean they'll need all the usual food and supplies already, because multiple trips to the store is an infection risk both to oneself and to others.

I'm no expert, but I've gathered that while the worst of the virus is over in 2 weeks, the recovery period is especially long, and a person remains contagious well after all outward symptoms have resolved. 5 weeks total is somewhat realistic.


----------



## Greg

If you're feeling freaked out google the possible cure, remdisivir.


----------



## jononotbono




----------



## purple

Looking like I'll have to do my last semester of school next year and take a break for a year. Kind of a bummer. Luckily they are making it easier to do so and still maintain a scholarship, so that's nice. My school didn't handle the news well and kind of just shut facilities down in the middle of finals week, which, at a music school means cancelling all recitals and concerts. Sucks for those who have spend months preparing for their graduation recitals and opera performances and so on.


----------



## dzilizzi

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Just tune out that drama.
> 
> Stay home, stay away from people, stop this things from spreading.
> 
> The bravery required of (most of) us in this moment is to be willing to cancel all plans, stay home, and have a boring life for next few weeks.


See, that is actually normal for me. I don't mind staying home. Reading, doing music, catching up on cleaning, watching stupid YouTube videos... I'd say I'm agoraphobic but I don't have a problem going out, I just rather stay home. 

My husband, on the other hand, will be going crazy by about day 3. Though if he can work in his woodworking shop, it will help. But that usually means opening the garage door out to the world. And then he'll want to go to Home Depot...

But the big box of toilet paper arrived. Technically, it was commercial toilet paper but higher quality stuff. No plastic, good for the environment sort of thing. Not sure if it cheaper though.


----------



## dzilizzi

Greg said:


> If you're feeling freaked out google the possible cure, remdisivir.


Yes, they started human testing in China on March 3rd per the article I read. They will still need to go through some processes to get it approved (i.e. won't kill people) but I believe Gilead makes flu vaccines so they were quick with coming up with it. And it will still take a lot of time to make it as I'm not sure they have the facilities to do it. We outsource a lot of drug manufacturing to China.


----------



## Thundercat

Patrick9152 said:


> I hope that care in hospitals in the US is free for those who don't have insurance?


If only...

Hospitals are required to provide care even if the person is not insured, but after they have provided said care, they will go after that person with a vengeance such that the person wishes they had died.


----------



## Thundercat

NoamL said:


> It's probably an intermediate step that we have to walk society through before imposing lockdown. I suppose culture & political differences between America and PRC come into play here.


A fellow David Ickian? Problem-Reaction-Solution?

EDIT: nm. People's Republic of China duh..


----------



## purple

Also, I and others I know have lost some big live sound gigs over it... Lot of event cancellations....


----------



## Thundercat

Not to scare anyone but, I've also heard reports of people recovering from C19 and then getting reinfected. One man got well, had a big party to celebrate, got reinfected, and subsequently died.

Of course, there is the distinct possibility that those who previously had it, actually didn't, due to a false positive on the test. But...


----------



## AEF

Thundercat said:


> Not to scare anyone but, I've also heard reports of people recovering from C19 and then getting reinfected. One man got well, had a big party to celebrate, got reinfected, and subsequently died.
> 
> Of course, there is the distinct possibility that those who previously had it, actually didn't, due to a false positive on the test. But...



Link to this? More likely he wasn't fully recovered.


----------



## Thundercat

Land of Missing Parts said:


> The bravery required of (most of) us in this moment is to be willing to cancel all plans, stay home, and have a boring life for next few weeks.


And, er, figuring out how to pay bills with no work and no income...


----------



## Thundercat

Uiroo said:


> I didn't thought I have to explain this to anyone, but here you go:
> Hospitals will soon be at its limits, meaning they'll be unable to treat new incoming people, even if that means their death.
> That's the situation in Italy where in some parts of the country the causalities are twice as high because doctors need to decide who lives. This will get only worse.
> 
> So the goal is to "delay the inevitable" as much as possible to there are not so much sick people at a time but rather over a longer period of time, so that they can get the life-saving treatment they need.
> 
> But yeah, given how well you have understood the issue, natural selection will play a role.


That's a little...mean.


----------



## Thundercat

Besides the inconvenience of, you know, dying, this is very much a poor person's disease.

Most are not able to withstand weeks/months of lost work - like me. I work very hard, but I'm a "gig worker." I teach classes to corporations, but I am being banned and blocked from training due to concerns of social distancing and bringing in an infection.

I cannot work from home.

There are millions like me who were doing VERY WELL but now are suddenly facing poverty and undue stress and hardship over this.

If C19 don't kill ya then the loss of income will...


----------



## chimuelo

Anyone with a provable 1044 income that pays quarterly can get subsidies in May in Nevada.
Pretty sure it’s like this in most States.

Friends sent me a picture of their sold out show where nobody came.
They were paid regardless, but u-coming events are getting knocked out and the beauty is they don’t care about what you’re going to lose, they take your previous year/average quarterly and base your pay on that.

Not an entire paycheck but for musicians 500 a week will get you by. But you can moonlight doing cash gigs or just do lots of pre production since your getting paid.

Pay me now...


----------



## Thundercat

jononotbono said:


>


You are freaking hilarious dude and we're lucky to have you!


----------



## Kony

Batrawi said:


> I'm no historian, but 2020 is definitely more evolved & active in terms of transportation and mixing cultures than 1600s. I'm also no doctor, but plague was much easier to detect than a virus that you can hardly differentiate from a common flu/cold, not to mention its symptoms that appear at late stages.


The main vector for transmission for the bubonic plague was money


----------



## Thundercat

chimuelo said:


> Anyone with a provable 1044 income that pays quarterly can get subsidies in May in Nevada.
> Pretty sure it’s like this in most States.
> 
> Friends sent me a picture of their sold out show where nobody came.
> They were paid regardless, but u-coming events are getting knocked out and the beauty is they don’t care about what you’re going to lose, they take your previous year/average quarterly and base your pay on that.
> 
> Not an entire paycheck but for musicians 500 a week will get you by. But you can moonlight doing cash gigs or just do lots of pre production since your getting paid.
> 
> Pay me now...


Not sure what 1044 income is; I get 1099'ed. And I live in CA.


----------



## dzilizzi

My husband heard somewhere from someone who had it said that first he got a mild cold which seemed to go away, then came back a bit worse. Then started to clear up. Then came back as pneumonia. If this is true, your body would likely be worn out by the time you get the pneumonia which would be another reason it kills. 

I wonder if the pneumonia vaccine would be worth giving out to those who've been exposed or if it wouldn't help because it is a different virus? Just a thought. They pretty much force, um I mean really try to convince you to get it once you hit 50 or so.

Edit: some days I just can't type.


----------



## jononotbono

dzilizzi said:


> My husband heard somewhere from someone who had it said that first he got a mild cold which seemed to go away, then came back a bit worse. Then started to clear up. Then came back as pneumonia. If this is true, your body would likely be worn out by the time you get the pneumonia which would be another reason it kills.
> 
> I wonder if the pneumonia vaccine would be worth giving out to those who've been exposed or if it wouldn't help because it is a different virus? Just a thought. They pretty much force, um I mean really try to convince you to get it once you hit 50 or so.
> 
> Edit: some days I just can't type.



Who is your husband? You always mention him/her Just curious.


----------



## dzilizzi

jononotbono said:


> Who is your husband? You always mention him/her Just curious.


Just a guy who retired from the Air Force and now works for NASA. Mostly unexciting stuff. But we did get to see one of the last space shuttle take-offs. And I got to see one up close, but could only stick my head inside because they were still downloading the data from the system and didn't allow unnecessary people inside until it was done. It was cool though.


----------



## Nico

dzilizzi said:


> Just a guy who retired from the Air Force and now works for NASA. Mostly unexciting stuff.



ahah That's not what 99.99% of people would call "unexciting" :D


----------



## Uiroo

NoamL said:


> Is that why NYT just dropped their paywall for all coronavirus articles?
> 
> You might as well accuse this of being a plot by scientists to get more funding (the major science publishing companies have _also_ dropped all paywalls for Covid19 research around the time of Chinese New Year).


That's cool, but there are also other media outlets that exploit the fear with deceptive headlines and other shameless practises. They're basically trying people to read every single article about the topic because of ad revenue, so they write stuff like "Worry about the rumors of ibuprofen weakening your defense against corona? CLICK HERE TO FIND OUT MORE"

That's disgusting, they split up information into 20 articles to make money. Of course their numbers go up. But that's just part of the nature of journalism.
I think it's a good chance to see which media outlets are cool or not.


----------



## Dietz

Uiroo said:


> I think it's a good chance to see which media outlets are cool or not.


If you didn't know that before you have a problem anyway.


----------



## Uiroo

Dietz said:


> If you didn't know that before you have a problem anyway.


It is in fact true, that I don't have an opinion on every single news site, like you seem to do. There are a few that seem ok to me and more that I don't like, but since Covid-19 the list of media outlets I don't like has grown. I don't see how that means I have a problem.


----------



## mikeh-375

This is informative.....

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...le-of-chinas-secretive-wildlife-farm-industry


----------



## thov72

In case anyone needs toilet paper I have some "leftovers" only one side was used.


----------



## youngpokie

NoamL said:


> Is that why NYT just dropped their paywall for all coronavirus articles?



Actually, yes. Look, I really don't mean to sound negative but until last November I worked in this field and it is naïve to think the news media is not profiting from the panic. Since you brought up NYT, their digital operation is quite sophisticated but the underlying model is the same across the board. 

1. Traffic. The thing about panic is that it generates massive surge in web traffic and obsessive interest in the latest news and updates. The NYT live update feature is based on live-blogging. The "beauty" of panic for this business model is that unlike a 2 hour presidential debate, the coronavirus panic is sustained 24/7 over days and weeks. By taking down paywall for live updates, NYT is capturing its share of this traffic. The total traffic is translated into net impressions and the fact that people obsessively return for more updates translates into engagement. There is a reason NYT runs its own infection/death tracker rather than sending people to the John Hopkins website and it is because they need to ramp up the impression/engagement metric. NYT runs display ads in the live update landing page, it runs at least 7 trackers on its website and has its own ad portal that monetizes traffic to individual advertisers or sells it on open ad networks. More traffic on live updates leads to higher ad volume. Obsessive returns for "live updates" means higher ad rotation. At its core, this business strategy is not very different from click-bait, but panic-driven live updates on coronavirus is more sustainable than cat pictures, for as long it lasts.

2. Segmentation. On the live update page, NYT is promising "more free articles if you create an account", which you can do with direct email signup or by logging in via Google etc. Once that happens, your profile is enhanced (with trackers, 3rd party data matching and profiling). Now you can be segmented into a lifecycle model, subscription status, what type of news you read, what other websites you visit, how often you click and what you click, what time of day and how long you remain on those pages. In fact, New York Times is taking segmentation further than many less sophisticated news orgs, they sell reader targeting based on predictive motivation, trends and clustering. 

3. Conversion from visitor to customer. Once you create an account, NYT will also put you in their own internal segmentation model and inside their business platform. For example, The New York Times Company owns TBrand which uses data analytics to drive the type of stories ("narratives") they write to sell ("Dove. Challenging Hair Stereotypes to Boost Diversity"). They run podcasts that sell ads and generate subscriptions/account creation, they model the elections, etc, etc, etc. And they will try very hard to convert you into a subscriber. This quote is from last November corporate results update: _“In Q3 we made a significant change to our pay model. Most anonymous users now have to register and log in to The New York Times if they want to read more than a very limited number of stories. It’s much easier for us to encourage these logged-in users to engage more deeply with our content and consider subscribing. This was an important factor in the strong net subscription adds in the quarter. Encouragingly, it has not so far led to any appreciable loss of overall unique users."_

Again, I don't have anything against New York Times (it's one of the few that I actually read), this is just to give an example and in many ways they are ahead of the curve.


----------



## oboemaroni

dzilizzi said:


> My husband heard somewhere from someone who had it said that first he got a mild cold which seemed to go away, then came back a bit worse. Then started to clear up. Then came back as pneumonia. If this is true, your body would likely be worn out by the time you get the pneumonia which would be another reason it kills.
> 
> I wonder if the pneumonia vaccine would be worth giving out to those who've been exposed or if it wouldn't help because it is a different virus? Just a thought. They pretty much force, um I mean really try to convince you to get it once you hit 50 or so.
> 
> Edit: some days I just can't type.



As someone who woke up with a mild cold today this is not reassuring to read...


----------



## youngpokie

Thundercat said:


> Besides the inconvenience of, you know, dying, this is very much a poor person's disease.
> 
> ...
> 
> If C19 don't kill ya then the loss of income will...



I think this is spot on. Life expectancy and mortality is directly correlated to GDP and strength of the economy and I don't think anyone has any idea of the consequences we will face for the economic destruction that's happening now and how it will compare to the impact of coronavirus. 

Italy, France and Spain (and likely the US) seem to be following the China model, shutting everything down. Apparently, in Wuhan they were literally barricading people inside their apartments. In New York City, teachers are planning walk-outs to force school closures. 

I might be wrong but it seems like the UK is trying the South Korean model: population comparable to Italy but only ~30K in isolation?? In fact, South Korea is "forcing!" day care to remain open with emergency daycare so that parents who are not self-isolating can go to work and not lose wages/tank the economy.


----------



## youngpokie

dzilizzi said:


> My husband, on the other hand, will be going crazy by about day 3.



LOL, this is my life to a T....


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Thundercat said:


> And, er, figuring out how to pay bills with no work and no income...


I'm sorry to hear that and hope for the best for you. As you mentioned living in California, there is reason to think that the federal and/or state government will be offering financial assistance.

Top priority at the moment needs to be saving lives; and for most of us that means staying home and staying away from people, to stop the spread of the virus.


----------



## Ashermusic

Thundercat said:


> Not sure what 1044 income is; I get 1099'ed. And I live in CA.



Kudlow just said on "Meet The Press" that the pending bill when passed will have relief for self-employed people.


----------



## Craig Duke

youngpokie said:


> I might be wrong but it seems like the UK is trying the South Korean model: population comparable to Italy but only ~30K in isolation?? In fact, South Korea is "forcing!" day care to remain open with emergency daycare so that parents who are not self-isolating can go to work and not lose wages/tank the economy.


"On Friday, the UK government’s chief science adviser, Sir Patrick Vallance, said on BBC Radio 4 that one of “the key things we need to do” is to “build up some kind of herd immunity so more people are immune to this disease and we reduce the transmission.”

>> The "herd immunity" strategy required at least 60% of the population to be get infected thereby creating general immunity in the population (for those who survived). Yikes!

"But on Sunday, Matt Hancock, the UK secretary of state for health and social care, stressed that achieving herd immunity to Covid-19 is not a stated policy. Instead, he said that “in the coming weeks,” *people over the age of 70 will be told to self-isolate*. This *stands in contrast with World Health Organization guidelines*, which recommend that everyone, regardless of age, practice social distancing."

>> This new approach seems to track with creating a "herd immunity" but gives a nod to the most physically vulnerable. 

>> Immunity can be created but, as I understand it, with covid viruses, they are not very strong (the reason why we can get the flu over and over again). But, it's worth a try. You go first UK .


----------



## ag75

I just had 6 weeks of shows canceled. 6 weeks with no pay. Yikes.


----------



## JohnG

Ashermusic said:


> Kudlow just said on "Meet The Press" that the pending bill when passed will have relief for self-employed people.



I hope so, but they've announced tons of things that turn out to be not actually implemented, or even practical. Or actually even coherent.

For example, Trump said the insurance companies would waive co-pays and the insurance industry said, "what?"


----------



## mikeh-375

Craig Duke said:


> "On Friday, the UK government’s chief science adviser, Sir Patrick Vallance, said on BBC Radio 4 that one of “the key things we need to do” is to “build up some kind of herd immunity so more people are immune to this disease and we reduce the transmission.”
> 
> >> The "herd immunity" strategy required at least 60% of the population to be get infected thereby creating general immunity in the population (for those who survived). Yikes!
> 
> "But on Sunday, Matt Hancock, the UK secretary of state for health and social care, stressed that achieving herd immunity to Covid-19 is not a stated policy. Instead, he said that “in the coming weeks,” *people over the age of 70 will be told to self-isolate*. This *stands in contrast with World Health Organization guidelines*, which recommend that everyone, regardless of age, practice social distancing."
> 
> >> This new approach seems to track with creating a "herd immunity" but gives a nod to the most physically vulnerable.
> 
> >> Immunity can be created but, as I understand it, with covid viruses, they are not very strong (the reason why we can get the flu over and over again). But, it's worth a try. You go first UK .




Craig, the Times over here (UK) extrapolated the implications of herd immunity implicit in the government's strategy and came up with c.40 million infected and around 400,000 dead at current death rate estimates. However, there are mitigating circumstances and situations that do dispell these numbers, so it's a 'worst case' that might not even happen.


----------



## Thundercat

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I'm sorry to hear that and hope for the best for you. As you mentioned living in California, there is reason to think that the federal and/or state government will be offering financial assistance.
> 
> Top priority at the moment needs to be saving lives; and for most of us that means staying home and staying away from people, to stop the spread of the virus.


So many millions are in the same boat, many here as well.

thx for kind words. We will get through this.


----------



## CT

thov72 said:


> In case anyone needs toilet paper I have some "leftovers" only one side was used.



What side?


----------



## dzilizzi

Maybe it's time to install a bidet seat.


----------



## JohnG

There's a good source of scientific information, updated almost every day, from Johns Hopkins:

Main site: http://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/resources/COVID-19/

Update from March 13: https://myemail.constantcontact.com...ch-13.html?soid=1107826135286&aid=xyAIQuq9n5I


----------



## NoamL

Craig Duke said:


> he said that “in the coming weeks,” people over the age of 70 will be told to self-isolate.



Unbelievable. This crap isn't going to work. That's not how you stop an epidemic. Telling less than 1/5th of your population to self isolate starting several viral doubling-periods from now. What is this shambles?

Here is the best explainer I've seen so far online. It removes all the epidemiological terms and just needs basic math literacy. It covers what happened in China pretty well (unlike most Western news articles that don't even touch the subject).

*LINK*

That post also goes over what I talked about earlier about how official cases are lagging true cases due to 1) the wide spectrum of disease severity and underdiagnosis, 2) exponential growth, 3) the average timeline of disease evolution in individual patients.

Our governments aren't going to act seriously until hospitals are overwhelmed or near the breaking point. By that point in time, a future peak SEVERAL TIMES hospital capacity is literally certain.


----------



## gsilbers

SO yesterday Trump said he might fire or demote the Fed chairman for not acting quickly. 

today the FED just announced slashing its rates down to 0 and doing the quantitave easing for $700 billion. (oddly similar number from obama era)

Plus the 3rd aid package from congress. 

and the huge debt the US has to begin with.

And it seems the virus barely started in the US. 

I know we are all in panic mode about the actual virus, but the "antidote" might be actually worse for us. 
Not sure if the virus will be the worse part of all of this.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

gsilbers said:


> I know we are all in panic mode about the actual virus, but the "antidote" might be actually worse for us.


The most important thing is saving lives and containing this virus. Stay home, folks, unless it is absolutely necessary. Also important: getting relief to those who need it so we can all hunker down and get through this thing.

The economic carnage that will follow will be no fun, I suspect. But the _first order_ of business is putting out this fire.


----------



## gsilbers

Land of Missing Parts said:


> The most important thing is saving lives and containing this virus. Stay home, folks, unless it is absolutely necessary. Also important: getting relief to those who need it so we can all hunker down and get through this thing.
> 
> The economic carnage that will follow will be no fun, I suspect. But the _first order_ of business is putting out this fire.



obviuously....


but..


based on the REST of what i said. Cant you determine that the whole focus right now is economically?
And then see the images where there is thousands of poeple stuck at airports together after a fast unthought decision to close borders?
So obvously WE are all thinking it same way... except the ONE person who actually matters in this situation.

specially reading the article above.


----------



## gsilbers

NoamL said:


> Unbelievable. This crap isn't going to work. That's not how you stop an epidemic. Telling less than 1/5th of your population to self isolate starting several viral doubling-periods from now. What is this shambles?
> 
> Here is the best explainer I've seen so far online. It removes all the epidemiological terms and just needs basic math literacy. It covers what happened in China pretty well (unlike most Western news articles that don't even touch the subject).
> 
> *LINK*
> 
> That post also goes over what I talked about earlier about how official cases are lagging true cases due to 1) the wide spectrum of disease severity and underdiagnosis, 2) exponential growth, 3) the average timeline of disease evolution in individual patients.
> 
> Our governments aren't going to act seriously until hospitals are overwhelmed or near the breaking point. By that point in time, a future peak SEVERAL TIMES hospital capacity is literally certain.




thats a great article. 


Excluding these, countries that are prepared will see a fatality rate of ~0.5% (South Korea) to 0.9% (rest of China).
Countries that are overwhelmed will have a fatality rate between ~3%-5%

Countries that act fast reduce the number of deaths at least by 10x.


----------



## gsilbers

Also, whats the end game here? 

there is at least 18 month minimum for a vaccine. 
poeple can get it again. 

eventually even if we can hit the curve and lower medical care saturation, poeple will go out again, and get infected and start going up again. its not like we can all live inside our houses for 18 month+ , right?


----------



## chrisr

Here's a good summary of the proposed uk position, which for what it's worth, I agree with. It's not being followed completely in the uk because organisations are acting unilaterally and cancelling events... but I honestly think the logic is sound.

If you click through it's 17 points in total, outlining the approach and the potential failings of other approaches.

This pandemic is evolving and it's not sufficient to talk about infection and mortality rates in the moment. It will only be something we can judge the success or failure of some years from now.

In short, it desirable for most of us to get this, in a controlled way.


----------



## NoamL

There's too much uncertainty to even think about questions like that @gsilbers . All I can do to keep from going crazy is think and plan for 4 weeks from now.


----------



## NoamL

@chrisr with respect to the Professor (of psychology), he is truly misunderstanding what the threat is here.

the two biggest misunderstandings I see online right now are:

1. not learning anything from the experience in China (the essay I linked does a great job establishing the lessons from China)
2. considering Covid19 as a sort of *"Death lottery"*

If it were a death lottery you could argue quite convincingly that we should all just pull our tickets and get it over with. After all the consequences of this societal shutdown certainly include job loss and supply chain dislocations and possibly include business failure, inflation, hoarding, civil disorder and God knows what else. All this, why? After all most of our tickets read "YOU SURVIVE." So what are we doing this for, to save the lives of some 75 year olds with 3 more years of life expectancy?

The difference is Covid19 is not a death lottery. It's a disease. If you get the mild version and survive you will still be knocked out on your butt and unable to contribute to society for weeks, just the same as if you had been in isolation. If you get a medium case of the disease, you additionally contribute to clogging our hospitals, running short the supply of PPE, stopping people from getting elective procedures. And if you get a serious case, there could be LIFE LONG CONSEQUENCES to having had this disease. That is one of the largest remaining unknowns. We know very little about the *sequelae* of having this, not just on your lungs but every other organ.

Another example of seeing this as a death lottery is whenever you see people online saying "you might as well get it early." It's like saying X% of Americans experience a car crash in their lives, might as well get yours now! The odds of survival are high!


----------



## gsilbers

but woudlnt both versions be about the same? 

seems no matter what, even with lock down in china, poeple are still getting it. and will continue to do so. its just more manageble. which helps lower the death rate. 
The UK version seems to be a little more cruel but are embracing it... not sure how they will do it slowly as to only affect low amount of poeple so the death rate is low. but if they do, then both scenarios would be about the same? i guess its the details .


----------



## Uiroo

On friday I decided not to leave the house anymore except for going to the store once a week and going for a walk every two days (with no contact to anyone, except my girlfriend). Ugh, tough times...


----------



## Dewdman42

Its a matter of flattening the curve so that we don't slam the health care system all at once, causing a much higher mortality rate.

I am definitely staying home for a few weeks. If I go out at all it will only be because I really need something. I will feel safer going out for an emergency purchase after I know everyone else is staying in as much as possible. When I look around, a high percentage of my friends are partying at the bar as usual entirely in denial about the seriousness of this.

By the way, young people are dying too!


----------



## Ashermusic

Because I am 71, I will not be going to large groups. I am giving my students the option to cancel our lessons, which most of them are. I will not be getting on a plane or going to a movie theater.

But I certainly am not going to hesitate too go to the supermarket if I need something, or the bank to make a deposit etc.

It is only logical to be smart and prudent. But this is not the Zombie Apocalypse and you are in more danger every time you drive your care.


----------



## Dewdman42

NoamL said:


> Unbelievable. This crap isn't going to work. That's not how you stop an epidemic. Telling less than 1/5th of your population to self isolate starting several viral doubling-periods from now. What is this shambles?
> 
> Here is the best explainer I've seen so far online. It removes all the epidemiological terms and just needs basic math literacy. It covers what happened in China pretty well (unlike most Western news articles that don't even touch the subject).
> 
> *LINK*
> 
> That post also goes over what I talked about earlier about how official cases are lagging true cases due to 1) the wide spectrum of disease severity and underdiagnosis, 2) exponential growth, 3) the average timeline of disease evolution in individual patients.
> 
> Our governments aren't going to act seriously until hospitals are overwhelmed or near the breaking point. By that point in time, a future peak SEVERAL TIMES hospital capacity is literally certain.



I'm with you NaomL. I feel we have already missed the window and we are already behind the curve and there is very dire times ahead through the end of April. Sooner or later everyone will self isolate and slow this thing, but it is simply not going to happen until it gets quite a bit more dire then it is at the moment. The reality is that USA is going to see what they are seeing in Italy right now, except 50x. Americans are too stupid to stay home without marshall law and we will never have Marshall law, so the result is inevitable IMHO.

Regarding the stats. A lot of people keep saying "well the mortality rate must not be as high as they are saying because we haven't been testing all the mild cases". Ok.. but another factor related to those stats is that at any given moment, the number of people dying are the ones that caught this disease perhaps weeks earlier when the overall count was also much lower. By that logic, the mortality rate could be even HIGHER then reported so far! Italy is at 8% right now. I saw an article in the NY times that basically said the stats in china are/were 1/5 need hospitalization and 49% of those hospitalized perish. China enforced very strict marshall law, something we will probably not do here. They are reporting much slower growth of cases now, but do I trust china to give us the correct data? No I do not, they are propoganda artists.

Italy is hitting higher numbers because they don't have enough hospitals...and if the numbers continue to progress at the rate they are, which I view as highly likely at this point...USA won't be able to keep up with it either. But our problem will be widespread across 50 states with 300 million people effected.

The fed just cut the rate a very large drop all the way to zero. They never usually drop it that much. This is a hail mary. They know what is coming and they are scared as much as I am. 

Me, I worry more about my 78 year old mom sitting in a retirement home where they are still dining together every day and weren't even blocking visitors until a few days ago.


----------



## Dewdman42

as far as end game... There is none. The virus is not going away. Over the second half of this year we are going to have to change how we interact with each other for 18 months until there is a vaccine. We will figure that out and life will go on, but the next few months are going to be very very bad and sad...mainly because our healthcare system is about to crater.. 10 more days max and we'll be like Italy.


----------



## Dewdman42

NoamL said:


> Here is the best explainer I've seen so far online. It removes all the epidemiological terms and just needs basic math literacy. It covers what happened in China pretty well (unlike most Western news articles that don't even touch the subject).
> 
> *LINK*



Excellent article! Long. But excellent and thanks for sharing.


----------



## Maxtrixbass

Money-wise my income has now dropped to zero. One ongoing music gig I had was in Kirkland..yeah, that Kirkland, ground zero. The rest of western Washington state got a jump start on the thing, so we seem to lead the country on the shape of things to come.

There really isn't much open around me..Closed are all the schools, libraries, churches, many businesses, the "giants" of the area (Microsoft, Amazon..) are pretty vacant, most 'senior centers' are on lockdown with several having deaths. The few eating establishments that are open are pretty much "take out only". The roads are all pretty quite really. City streets are pretty vacant. Grocery stores are open, but are starting to cut back on open hours. There aren't any gatherings of any size really. 250 is the "legal limit", but in practice I don't see anything happening with a group of 10. Think about how many things you do that are around 10 or more people.

I do agree with a previous poster that we are tending to think in terms of deaths..which are important and to be avoided of course. If a third of society is out sick or caring for the sick.. I'm not sure how that would look.

edit: WA state- As of tonight (Sunday), all restaurants closed or take out only. Bars, recreational facilities, closed. Retail under "low density" restrictions. Basically grocery stores (operating under reduced hours) and pharmacies are the only "public" left.


----------



## Dewdman42

the financial outcome is going to be bad too, but I didn't want to get into that right now.

I agree with you that WA is going to come out ahead in the long run. My sister lives there and I think the kirkland episode freaked out your state enough to close everything down just in time ahead of the curve. That is most definitely not the case here. The lack of proper testing has given most of the country a false sense of everything being fine.


----------



## Maxtrixbass

Dewdman42 said:


> the financial outcome is going to be bad too, but I didn't want to get into that right now.
> 
> I agree with you that WA is going to come out ahead in the long run. My sister lives there and I think the kirkland episode freaked out your state enough to close everything down just in time ahead of the curve. That is most definitely not the case here. The lack of proper testing has given most of the country a false sense of everything being fine.



What part of the country are you in?


----------



## Dewdman42

Park City, Utah. Over the weekend they finally freaked out, all the ski resorts in Utah have shut down, the county Park City is in is requiring pretty much all businesses to shut down. This was after a worker at a very popular restaurant/bar in Park city came down with covid19 after having worked several days with symptoms. Its already here and spreading as far as I'm concerned, but there is just an attitude by many people I know to not take it seriously yet. Most of Utah is not shut down yet.


----------



## Dewdman42

There are numerous cases of "reinfection". We don't know that. This is a disease that came from animals so our body is completely unprepared. One can hope that we will become more immune to it or future mutations of it, but time will tell. but that's not the point. Until we have a vaccine, we will need to continue social distancing ourselves as a point of normal operations. businesses will need to rearrange how they go about doing business so that employees are always 6 feet apart, etc.. people working from home. Bars and restaurants with less seating, etc..until either the virus disappears without a trace, or every single human gets the virus and either dies or develops an immunity to it. Until then we will have to change the way we operate or there will be another major outbreak with thousands of deaths, etc.. UNTIL we have a vaccine...18 months from now, then we can finally take the vaccine and go back to easy living.


----------



## MauroPantin

chrisr said:


> Here's a good summary of the proposed uk position, which for what it's worth, I agree with. It's not being followed completely in the uk because organisations are acting unilaterally and cancelling events... but I honestly think the logic is sound.
> 
> If you click through it's 17 points in total, outlining the approach and the potential failings of other approaches.
> 
> This pandemic is evolving and it's not sufficient to talk about infection and mortality rates in the moment. It will only be something we can judge the success or failure of some years from now.
> 
> In short, it desirable for most of us to get this, in a controlled way.




With respect, that twitter ramble is probably the cruelest shit I've ever read.

The idea is based on one presumption and not an informed, educated, science-backed idea. Where is the peer-reviewed scientific paper that states that long-lasting herd immunity is a possibility with this particular disease? There is only anecdotal evidence for both re-infection and immunity at the moment. The key assumption in that proposal is not understood by science as of now. What that means is: That is not a strategy, it is a careless gamble with people's lives.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Dewdman42 said:


> There are numerous cases of "reinfection". We don't know that.


Sorry, I deleted my post. Just in case I'm wrong, I don't want to spread bad information.


----------



## Sears Poncho

Dewdman42 said:


> Americans are too stupid to stay home


Devin Nunes says to go out, and go to the pubs. He is a US Congressman. He said it _today._ I don't need to mention his political party, pretty easy to figure out.

In most countries, he wouldn't be a Congressman tomorrow. Not here, oh no. He'll simply say "You took my words out of context because Obama and Freedom and derp derp derp". He and the other nimrods are more dangerous to the US than the virus.


----------



## Living Fossil

Dewdman42 said:


> There are numerous cases of "reinfection". We don't know that.



I just want to take this mentioning of "reinfection" to raise awareness to a thing that lots of people forget:

It's the thing with the *recontamination*.

It's absolutely necessary to regularly disinfect the door handles.
Otherwise the following scenario may happen:
You come home, go right on to the bathroom and wash your hands.
However, when entering the room, you've created a small viral deposit on the door handle.
By leaving the bathroom you get it back.

In rooms that are frequented by different people, the issue with the door handles is even worse.
On a metallic surface the virus may survive for up to 9 days. That's a f***ing long time.

_EDIT: Dewdman42 mentioned this time span. In an earlier version i had written about 12 hours (as i had read before)...._

The thing with the door handles is easily forgotten and that's why i'd like to ask everybody to forward this advice...


----------



## marclawsonmusic

patrick76 said:


> This is fantastic. If you haven't seen it yet, it is worth watching and has a wonderful ending.




I have paid full price for lab tests the past 3 years because I cannot afford ObamaCare. I am middle class and we are bearing the brunt of this bullshit program.

She says Americans can't afford unexpected expenses of $400/month... Fuck, I can't afford the $700/month for ObamaCare! That's a goddamn BMW payment - and that's bottom-of-the-barrel insurance. PS - I drive a 4-cyl Nissan to save money. 

So, some Americans can't get a coronavirus test for less than $1000? No shit - Americans like me. What is your point?

Please take this political shit off the thread.


----------



## Dewdman42

actually they are saying this coronavirus can survive as long as 9 days on certain surfaces such as metal.

its one of the reasons that is so much more contagious then the flu.


----------



## MartinH.

Dewdman42 said:


> actually they are saying this coronavirus can survive as long as 9 days on certain services such as metal.



I think I've heard just about every number between 2 hours and 9 days now. I'm starting to think they don't _actually _know it for sure...


----------



## d.healey

I'm finding myself watching more movies like this


----------



## Dewdman42

when in doubt, assume 9 days! Actually 9 days is what I hear over and over again...I never heard anyone say that this coronavirus only survives 2 hours.

But you are right, they are learning every day, usually for the worse, more about this virus. For example, for a long time people were saying, don't worry you can only get this through contact to your mouth, you have to touch a door handle and then touch your mouth, or your eyes...but last week some study in germany concluded that it can circulate in the air for up to 3 hours and you can breath it in that way too.

So...what is the moral of the story. Assume the worst! stay home! wash your hands constantly. Avoid large crowds. They are trying to say its ok if you sit 6 feet apart, but I'm waiting for them to say oopsie, it looks like you could beathe it in if you are in a big room with lots of people 6 feet apart.


----------



## Dewdman42

as for young people: 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/03/13/world/asia/coronavirus-death-life.html


----------



## patrick76

marclawsonmusic said:


> I have paid full price for lab tests the past 3 years because I cannot afford ObamaCare. I am middle class and we are bearing the brunt of this bullshit program.
> 
> She says Americans can't afford unexpected expenses of $400/month... Fuck, I can't afford the $700/month for ObamaCare! That's a goddamn BMW payment - and that's bottom-of-the-barrel insurance. PS - I drive a 4-cyl Nissan to save money.
> 
> So, some Americans can't get a coronavirus test for less than $1000? No shit - Americans like me. What is your point?
> 
> Please take this political shit off the thread.



I'm sorry I don't follow what you are saying here. What does ObamaCare have to do with this?

I'm not sure if you watched the entire video, but if not, she ends up getting the CDC director to agree to commit to free coronavirus testing. So my point is this is good news and I wanted to share it here.


----------



## Sears Poncho

marclawsonmusic said:


> Please take this political shit off the thread.


It's part of the story. It's a HUGE part of it. And it's going to be a huge part, or lack of, the cure/resuming to normal. 

I live in Ohio, they just shut down all restaurants 30 minutes ago. So yes, that falls under "How's your life been affected". And then there's a shitbag like Nunes telling people to go out. So again, it's part of the story.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

patrick76 said:


> I'm sorry I don't follow what you are saying here. What does ObamaCare have to do with this?
> 
> I'm not sure if you watched the entire video, but if not, she ends up getting the CDC director to agree to commit to free coronavirus testing. So my point is this is good news and I wanted to share it here.



ObamaCare - the first couple minutes of the video has her outlining healthcare costs. I pay those costs. She is a democrat trying to shame the current administration so that's the connection to ObamaCare? You did not get that? 

Regardless, she outlines what some Americans are paying, unless you are extremely poor.

Glad to hear someone else will pay for something for the middle class. Fantastic. Great.


----------



## patrick76

marclawsonmusic said:


> ObamaCare - the first couple minutes of the video has her outlining healthcare costs. I pay those costs. She is a democrat trying to shame the current administration so that's the connection to ObamaCare? You did not get that?


No, because it doesn't have anything to do with ObamaCare. This woman did something to benefit the entire country and will certainly end up saving some lives. I'm not sure why just because she's a democrat that should offend you so much.


marclawsonmusic said:


> Glad to hear someone else will pay for something for the middle class. Fantastic. Great.


I'm not sure, but I think you are being sarcastic here. I guess I don't get it. I will leave it at that and just say that I think at times like this we should work together, left and right.


----------



## InLight-Tone

Uiroo said:


> That's cool, but there are also other media outlets that exploit the fear with deceptive headlines and other shameless practises. They're basically trying people to read every single article about the topic because of ad revenue, so they write stuff like "Worry about the rumors of ibuprofen weakening your defense against corona? CLICK HERE TO FIND OUT MORE"
> 
> That's disgusting, they split up information into 20 articles to make money. Of course their numbers go up. But that's just part of the nature of journalism.
> I think it's a good chance to see which media outlets are cool or not.


Viruses feeding on viruses...


----------



## marclawsonmusic

patrick76 said:


> No, because it doesn't have anything to do with ObamaCare. This woman did something to benefit the entire country and will certainly end up saving some lives. I'm not sure why just because she's a democrat that should offend you so much.
> 
> I'm not sure, but I think you are being sarcastic here. I guess I don't get it. I will leave it at that and just say that I think at times like this we should work together, left and right.



It has everything to do with healthcare in the US. 

It is galling to hear a democrat get preachy about healthcare costs when they are the ones who made it difficult for folks like me to get healthcare. So now they decide to pay for a Covid-19 test? Fantastic - I'll take it.

I am glad I am healthy and don't need much healthcare. If I did, I would be paying over $700/mo for shitty Healthcare Marketplace (ObamaCare) insurance. As it is, I don't have insurance and pay out-of-pocket when I go to the doctor. So, yes, those costs she put on the whiteboard are MY costs. I paid them last time I got a physical: CBC + Metabolic Panel + Prostate TSH (cause I'm old now - 45). I guess that's why it hit home.

So if I get sick from Covid-19, under ObamaCare, I am completely fucked. Affordable healthcare? Bullshit. And I voted for Obama in 2008, which I guess is why I'm pissy about the whole thing.

You asked how it's affecting me... I answered. Sorry if I didn't tow the line. Peace


----------



## chimuelo

Thundercat said:


> Not sure what 1044 income is; I get 1099'ed. And I live in CA.



Sorry ‘bout that Chief. 1099’d is what I was suppose to write, but auto spell nabbed me. Basically guys who make quarterly estimates should be okay.
You can even collect unemployment benefits as a musician since you’re taxes are basically an estimate of earnings, so it’s considered your unemployment tax.

I know many guys who get their agents to say it was a work force reduction and collect while they’re in pre production for a show or another group.
Back in 2008 guys were getting 99 weeks.


----------



## chimuelo

marclawsonmusic said:


> It has everything to do with healthcare in the US.
> 
> It is galling to hear a democrat get preachy about healthcare costs when they are the ones who made it difficult for folks like me to get healthcare. So now they decide to pay for a Covid-19 test? Fantastic - I'll take it.
> 
> I am glad I am healthy and don't need much healthcare. If I did, I would be paying over $700/mo for shitty Healthcare Marketplace (ObamaCare) insurance. As it is, I don't have insurance and pay out-of-pocket when I go to the doctor. So, yes, those costs she put on the whiteboard are MY costs. I paid them last time I got a physical: CBC + Metabolic Panel + Prostate TSH (cause I'm old now - 45). I guess that's why it hit home.
> 
> So if I get sick from Covid-19, under ObamaCare, I am completely fucked. Affordable healthcare? Bullshit. And I voted for Obama in 2008, which I guess is why I'm pissy about the whole thing.
> 
> You asked how it's affecting me... I answered. Sorry if I didn't tow the line. Peace



I know what you mean about these Grandstanding politicians who forced their failed concepts on us working folks.

I think they’re more worried about taking care of thousands of border crashing law breakers. After they fucked us and blame others, they need a new group of fools buying into their “free health care” song and dance.

Reason our health care system is so damn expensive is because they sold legislation to yacht driving scumbag lawyers like John Edwards and Avenatti.
Along with them came the monopoly of malpractice insurers, more buddies of the wealthy politicians.

I was visiting a niece in an out of coverage area in Tennessee. She was giving birth. I never pay for care because I take a 35% wage cut for great coverag.
But while waiting and waiting the Nurse offered me an Aspurin, I only had to sign for it. 60 fucking bucks.

So when I hear any politician lecturing anyone on costs I’d love to take away their coverage that “we” pay for and see how they like the shit they shovel...


----------



## jcrosby

marclawsonmusic said:


> ObamaCare - the first couple minutes of the video has her outlining healthcare costs. I pay those costs. She is a democrat trying to shame the current administration so that's the connection to ObamaCare? You did not get that?
> 
> Regardless, she outlines what some Americans are paying, unless you are extremely poor.
> 
> Glad to hear someone else will pay for something for the middle class. Fantastic. Great.


Good god people will never stop politicizing shit, even in a crisis. You do realize how incredibly selfish you sound by setting out to hijack a conversation about a global health crisis and trying it turn it into a bully pulpit don't you?

People should be sharing clear health-related information, the inevitable impact this will have on the global economy - and how that *will* impact them financially, offering perspective about the current situation; not looking for opportunities to slot in their political bend on health care by making irrelevant projections.


----------



## jcrosby

On a broader note ....

Massachusetts announced a statewide shutdown this afternoon. As of 11 PM tomorrow night the state will be shut down for a minimum of 3 weeks. Pharmacies and grocery stores will remain open, the bare essentials, everything else shut down.... Friends of mine who cook and work in various other industries affected are already being told to apply for unemployment stat.... (Which ironically won't cushion the blow for them during the initial 3 week shut down.)


Freaky times ahead it seems...


----------



## Thundercat

Dewdman42 said:


> There are numerous cases of "reinfection". We don't know that. This is a disease that came from animals so our body is completely unprepared. One can hope that we will become more immune to it or future mutations of it, but time will tell. but that's not the point. Until we have a vaccine, we will need to continue social distancing ourselves as a point of normal operations. businesses will need to rearrange how they go about doing business so that employees are always 6 feet apart, etc.. people working from home. Bars and restaurants with less seating, etc..until either the virus disappears without a trace, or every single human gets the virus and either dies or develops an immunity to it. Until then we will have to change the way we operate or there will be another major outbreak with thousands of deaths, etc.. UNTIL we have a vaccine...18 months from now, then we can finally take the vaccine and go back to easy living.


Excellent points.

One point of contention I have with your statements: there is nothing more powerful or effective than your own immunity after having fought off a disease successfully. Nothing. I fully disagree that a vaccine will save us from reinfection, if in fact people are getting reinfected. At best, a vaccine is a poor stepchild of a protector, which doesn't invoke a complete immune system response as compared to your body having fought off a pathogen. And vaccine mediated immunity does not last very long - in fact far less time than they used to tell us.

The sad fact is, most people going around thinking they are vaccinated against something had their immunity wear off years prior. We are essentially an unvaccinated population when it comes to most diseases we were previously vaccinated against.

And "herd immunity." This is a great misinformed concept. It's a theory, and only applies to populations who have *natural immunity* (they GOT the disease and fought it off) to the tune of over 95%. It doesn't apply to vaccinated populations the same way, although they claim it does. Vaccine mediated immunity comes nowhere close to cell-mediated immunity you acquire through having the disease. Translation: "herd immunity" does not apply the same way to vaccinated populations.

In fact many of the recent outbreaks in recent years began in vaccinated individuals, although they tell you otherwise. You find out doing more digging later, but they have a big incentive to force vaccinations on populations, when in fact vaccines don't work very well...

I will get shit for saying this. I am not saying vaccines don't work at all, or don't get vaccinated. I'm saying they don't give you the magic protection they claim it does. Sorry. I can't tell you how many people have shared that right after getting the flu vaccine, they immediately get the flu.

Which is another risk - this vaccine they are developing WILL GIVE SOME PEOPLE THE DISEASE. That's just part of the gig with vaccines. "Vaccines are unavoidably unsafe" as the govt would tell you.

We are at the mercy of what the box tells us. The box sometimes lies, and the box sometimes has misinformation. That is also part of the scare of all of this. The box can't save us.


----------



## Thundercat

marclawsonmusic said:


> It has everything to do with healthcare in the US.
> 
> It is galling to hear a democrat get preachy about healthcare costs when they are the ones who made it difficult for folks like me to get healthcare. So now they decide to pay for a Covid-19 test? Fantastic - I'll take it.
> 
> I am glad I am healthy and don't need much healthcare. If I did, I would be paying over $700/mo for shitty Healthcare Marketplace (ObamaCare) insurance. As it is, I don't have insurance and pay out-of-pocket when I go to the doctor. So, yes, those costs she put on the whiteboard are MY costs. I paid them last time I got a physical: CBC + Metabolic Panel + Prostate TSH (cause I'm old now - 45). I guess that's why it hit home.
> 
> So if I get sick from Covid-19, under ObamaCare, I am completely fucked. Affordable healthcare? Bullshit. And I voted for Obama in 2008, which I guess is why I'm pissy about the whole thing.
> 
> You asked how it's affecting me... I answered. Sorry if I didn't tow the line. Peace


I fully resonate with your sentiments. I dodged a huge healthcare bill bullet by joining a Christian health sharing ministry. Instead of $300/mo for myself, it's $45. And I have the same shitty $5,000 "deductible" before they help me (this is NOT insurance, but they will pay for things for you.) I would urge you to check into this if you're interested.

Also, calling something "healthcare" and charging such a huge premium is horrible. I calculated under ObamaCare I was going to have to pay almost $9,000/year before seeing the FIRST PENNY of support from this so-called insurance.

And I fear getting sick because I can't afford a $10,000 ER bill much less tens of thousands more for a hospital stay...


----------



## Thundercat

chimuelo said:


> Sorry ‘bout that Chief. 1099’d is what I was suppose to write, but auto spell nabbed me. Basically guys who make quarterly estimates should be okay.
> You can even collect unemployment benefits as a musician since you’re taxes are basically an estimate of earnings, so it’s considered your unemployment tax.
> 
> I know many guys who get their agents to say it was a work force reduction and collect while they’re in pre production for a show or another group.
> Back in 2008 guys were getting 99 weeks.


Helpful! Thanks!


----------



## Thundercat

chimuelo said:


> But while waiting and waiting the Nurse offered me an Aspurin, I only had to sign for it. 60 fucking bucks.


No Words.


----------



## Thundercat

jcrosby said:


> Good god people will never stop politicizing shit, even in a crisis. You do realize how incredibly selfish you sound by setting out to hijack a conversation about a global health crisis and trying it turn it into a bully pulpit don't you?
> 
> People should be sharing clear health-related information, the inevitable impact this will have on the global economy - and how that *will* impact them financially, offering perspective about the current situation; not looking for opportunities to slot in their political bend on health care by making irrelevant projections.


Sorry, I fully disagree. The poster is sharing their frustrations about the healthcare system and also tied it to the COVID-19 situation. Completely pertinent and on-point.

If you want to discuss your particular angle on this, start a new thread. But this thread is broad enough to include this viewpoint.

I respect you and your posts but being the forum police doesn't suit you. Everyone's feeling this differently and this individual is angry at the high costs and political BS surrounding healthcare and this situation.

Peace.


----------



## dzilizzi

Thundercat said:


> Excellent points.
> 
> One point of contention I have with your statements: there is nothing more powerful or effective than your own immunity after having fought off a disease successfully. Nothing. I fully disagree that a vaccine will save us from reinfection, if in fact people are getting reinfected. At best, a vaccine is a poor stepchild of a protector, which doesn't invoke a complete immune system response as compared to your body having fought off a pathogen. And vaccine mediated immunity does not last very long - in fact far less time than they used to tell us.
> 
> The sad fact is, most people going around thinking they are vaccinated against something had their immunity wear off years prior. We are essentially an unvaccinated population when it comes to most diseases we were previously vaccinated against.
> 
> And "herd immunity." This is a great misinformed concept. It's a theory, and only applies to populations who have *natural immunity* (they GOT the disease and fought it off) to the tune of over 95%. It doesn't apply to vaccinated populations the same way, although they claim it does. Vaccine mediated immunity comes nowhere close to cell-mediated immunity you acquire through having the disease. Translation: "herd immunity" does not apply the same way to vaccinated populations.
> 
> In fact many of the recent outbreaks in recent years began in vaccinated individuals, although they tell you otherwise. You find out doing more digging later, but they have a big incentive to force vaccinations on populations, when in fact vaccines don't work very well...
> 
> I will get shit for saying this. I am not saying vaccines don't work at all, or don't get vaccinated. I'm saying they don't give you the magic protection they claim it does. Sorry. I can't tell you how many people have shared that right after getting the flu vaccine, they immediately get the flu.
> 
> Which is another risk - this vaccine they are developing WILL GIVE SOME PEOPLE THE DISEASE. That's just part of the gig with vaccines. "Vaccines are unavoidably unsafe" as the govt would tell you.
> 
> We are at the mercy of what the box tells us. The box sometimes lies, and the box sometimes has misinformation. That is also part of the scare of all of this. The box can't save us.


Part of this is whether you get a live vaccine or a dead one. People who get live vaccines tend to get a mild case that is supposed to build your immunity. And maybe for the flu, that's what you want. The prep time for flu vaccines is such that they have to estimate what virus will hit. Most of the time they are wrong because it has mutated to something different by the time it hits. However, the vaccine will help build the antibodies that will fight any close relatives to that virus. So some immunity is better than none. 

The "herd" immunity is really only helpful for those who can't be immunized for some reason. It probably doesn't work for things like this. It is better for diseases like measles for which the vaccine has been found to work well. 

On another note, the California governor has closed all bars and wineries and ask restaurants to limit customers. Wineries will actually not shut, as maintaining wine in process will have to be done. But they can be closed to the public. It should be interesting to see what happens next.


----------



## coprhead6

My ballet company just canceled this current production that included an amazing Philip Glass re-score of the 1930s Dracula film... So it sucks that we only got to play it in the dress rehearsal. 

The company is losing $1 million in revenue this month, and $1.5 million each month this continues.


----------



## Stringtree

Sears Poncho said:


> I live in Ohio, they just shut down all restaurants 30 minutes ago. So yes, that falls under "How's your life been affected".



The screen in the Thai restaurant was showing a white ball flying through the air and landing on manicured, green grass. Odd to see such big crowds. One of the servers changed golf to the press conference and soon, pretty much everyone had wandered out of the kitchen. A mom and her two girls were the only other customers.

For sure, this is going to be horrible for those people. The best places around here are small, family-owned restaurants. These are the only places I go, the few times a month I don’t eat at home.

Greg


----------



## dzilizzi

Was kind of surprised to see some of the sporting events still happening. I noticed NASCAR canceled this weekend's races because of coronavirus. But I saw basketball, XFL, IndyCar, and golf all with crowds. Maybe less than usual. But nowhere near empty.


----------



## Henu

coprhead6 said:


> company is losing $1 million in revenue this month



This is actually what bothers me in general. I'm afraid that if the companies consider the time during the virus epidemy counted as "losing revenue" instead of "surviving a couple of months without revenue but without losing all the buffer we have either", we're going to see some serious spikes in layoffs.

It shouldn't be really rocket science- in times like this you're not actually expected to make profits but to _minimize the damage instead_. Demanding "usual" profits is what gets people fired... which will feed the flames of the depression. And suddenly we're having even worse economic crisis in our hands. And when people don't have money, they don't buy the products you're selling. So it really shouldnt' be that hard to concentrate more on damage control right now, if you want to succeed in the future as well.


----------



## Thundercat

august80 said:


> Nothing like internet forums to bring out the crazies. Some of the comments here - no way some of you people function well in gen pop.


Nothing like joining a new forum and then insulting its members.

Welcome, by the way.


----------



## Tatu

So far I've learned that a lot of people think with their assholes instead of their brains.

I have mild symptoms of cold/flu, so I'm enjoying peaceful working environment at home with some of my favourite music playing on the background.


----------



## DANIELE

micrologus said:


> I live in Southern Switzerland, near Italy. The situation is actually serious.



I live in Italy and actually the situation is very serious.


----------



## mohsohsenshi

DANIELE said:


> I live in Italy and actually the situation is very serious.



Hope you and your family your friends will be fine.



I survived the SARS 2003 in China, and this year I come across Covid-19 in Paris.
Just stay and lock myself at home, make music.
Thanks to network technology, I can give lessons to my students via internet.


----------



## Patrick.K

They have gone mad !
This morning, our coffee machine broke down, so I wanted to go buy ground coffee to help me out, and guess what? ... It's even worse than yesterday, people are filling their car trunk, full of bags of potatoes and rob the supermarkets to stock up on supplies.It's the same thing for the drug stores (pharmacie in french ?).
So I went without an "Bio" store even if it is more expensive, but i have no choice, but it is the same !.
I am more and more disgusted by the human race, it is hopeless. Sometimes I wish that the visitors of another planet, much more advanced that we come to visit us to do the cleaning, and change the mentalities !.
Yesterday on TV, politicians and food manufacturers said there was no risk of a food shortage, but it created the opposite ... it's crazy!
I am ashamed to be a human, and I regret having made children now. For what future? My children were not raised in this way, they are aged 28 and 30 years, and do not not behave like all these fools, luckily!
" E.T" if you can hear me, come and help us !.


----------



## Patrick.K

Latest new's from France :
In some areas, hospitals and doctors say the situation is a disaster, they lack resuscitation equipment, protection and masks, yet we have one of the best health systems in the world ... it's not reassuring, given the speed at which the virus spreads.
TV media's has just announced a new speech by our president on tv this evening.
It seems that in France, we are moving towards total containment, with police surveillance, as in Italy.
And guess what? ... People will panic even more, and rush even more into stores and pharmacies.
I don't know how the Americans behave, but from what I read, it's not better, maybe I'm wrong?, But the French are more unruly , that our Italian neighbors, and they tend to disobey...But I don't feel concerned, because I am of a wise and obedient nature.
Yesterday Sunday, despite the recommendations of the authorities, the day was sunny in Paris, and people crowded, gathered in parks and on the streets, whithout change their behavior, which helps the spread of the virus !.
But what do these fools have in mind !.


----------



## JEPA

DON’T PANIC! And don’t be egoist. Till yet I can’t get any disinfectants in the drugstores and supermarkets. I don’t understand how a human being is going to use 5 liters disinfectant to avoid the virus at home?? I’ve got three colds in the last three weeks and I was very scared with the last one because it affected my throat like asthma. What I have done were mouth washings with warm water, salt, lemons, ginger, salt, garlic and vinegar for the last strange cold only. Taking Vitamin C also. Now I’m feeling lot of better and feeling 95% of recovering. I had a recording today but I cancelled it cuz of me and the others. But I’m going tomorrow to work in the studio alone. Having to do mixes for two albums, editions and demo tracks for new products... I wish everybody keep going shopping in the NORMAL way, normal quantities.


----------



## MartinH.

Maybe it's a little easier to emotionally cope with the fact that people panic-buy the shelves clean, when you consider that even at the best of times people feel disenfranchised and powerless, and now in a time of crisis, buying stuff is one of the few actions available to them, to have _any _feeling of agency at all to "prepare" themselves. Imho it's unrealistic to expect from the broad population to be able to suppress that reflex. Most don't even have the impulse control to resist unhealthy food, how can we expect them to resist a fear reflex in the face of a worldwide pandemic that already caused thousands of deaths and will cause countless more?


----------



## youngpokie

I don't know who came up with the term "social distancing", but was thinking last night about the message. In the US at least, I wonder about social distance between the two halves of the country. Shouldn't we be socially together in a time like this, even while in temporary physical time-out?


----------



## gsilbers

Usa seems to be going the Italy route. There is no testing kits the damage is unknown yet.

But the difference imo is that Italy and Europe has its population in very close proximity but in USA there is only a handful of cities. 
Even cities like LA everyone is still very separated physically and rely on cars.

For example, I read some Spanish league played without an audience and turns out that their fan based camped outside. By the hundreds.
Or that image of some beach in Portugal where piele decided to go at the same beach and it’s hundreds of them.

In the USA it’s about staying at home. The life cycle here is work>tv>buy stuff>repeat.
So mostly schools are imo the main issue.

Then again, there is no safety net so hourly employees will have to go out even when sick.


----------



## dzilizzi

I get the buying. It goes with the self containment. Get your food now, then don't go out again until you have to. 

Of course, if you go out again, that kind of ruins the point of panic buying.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

jcrosby said:


> Good god people will never stop politicizing shit, even in a crisis. You do realize how incredibly selfish you sound by setting out to hijack a conversation about a global health crisis and trying it turn it into a bully pulpit don't you?
> 
> People should be sharing clear health-related information, the inevitable impact this will have on the global economy - and how that *will* impact them financially, offering perspective about the current situation; not looking for opportunities to slot in their political bend on health care by making irrelevant projections.



I'm sorry, but I was not the person who posted the political video.

And I am not 'slotting my political bend'. I have no political agenda - I don't vote and don't give a damn about the US political system. 

I am just an American who is living in a degree of fear due to the problems in our healthcare here.


----------



## JEPA

MartinH. said:


> already caused thousands of deaths and will cause countless more?


In Germany today my calculations are 0,0059% from the total population are affected by COVID-19. Total population 81,464,259.

EDIT: Source: https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus/Fallzahlen.html


----------



## Patrick.K

In your beautiful country the USA, you have an important advantage, because your country is so big with large sparsely populated areas, with more spaced cities like in Utah or Arizona (where I went on vacation the year last), mountain barriers and many other areas still desert which can play a role of natural barrier, finally I hope that that can be effective?.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

Here is also a great source of data:




__





ArcGIS Dashboards Classic







gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com





By contrast, since Oct 2019 the seasonal flu has inflected 36 million and killed more than 22,000 in the US:








Weekly U.S. Influenza Surveillance Report


Learn more about the weekly influenza surveillance report (FluView) prepared by the Influenza Division.




www.cdc.gov


----------



## Patrick.K

jononotbono said:


> So I go back to the same Supermarket as I did last night and I can't believe it! WTF! I knew I shouldn't have been so nice yesterday and bought toilet roll for other people.


After our disappearance, history will remember that our civilization had only one obsession: DYING WITH OWN ASS


----------



## Patrick.K

For those interested, or who lack inspiration, i have found a solution in a music store !


----------



## Zero&One

Patrick9152 said:


> For those interested, or who lack inspiration, i have found a solution in a music store !



There may be a toilet roll shortage... but I ain't wiping my ass with that


----------



## NoamL

DOW down 10% the minute the market opens, triggering a trading stop.

Went to Safeway at 6:15am to buy milk; I might as well have gone at 4pm. Tons of people and the shelves were looking a little bare.

I have ordered extra copies of Ayn Rand's _Fountainhead_ from Amazon, just in case we run out. It's more expensive than the grocery store but you're allowed to buy multiple copies at a time and the pages are double ply.


----------



## Jaap

Me and the misses are in social isolation already for a few days and I only went out for some shoppings today. In this part of the Netherlands (eastern part, near the german border) it was ok in the supermarket this morning. People where doing their shoppings in a normal way happily.

Thanks Noam, for all the great and insightfull postings.

Stay safe everyone.


----------



## youngpokie

NoamL said:


> DOW down 10% the minute the market opens, triggering a trading stop.



This is partly because the China data came out overnight showing what happened to its economy in just one month, in February:

- retail sales: -20.5% (vs +8% Jan)
- industrial production: - 13.5% (vs +6.9% Jan)
- fixed asset investment: -24.5% (vs +5.4% in January)

In addition, house market down 1% vs Jan, unemployment up 1% vs Jan.


----------



## GNP

cuttime said:


> Just don't double dip the chips!




Hahahahaha


----------



## MartinH.

So when stocks go "on sale" now, does that mean it's time to slowly start investing?


----------



## dzilizzi

Patrick9152 said:


> After our disappearance, history will remember that our civilization had only one obsession: DYING WITH OWN ASS


They don't put bidets in most US homes, unfortunately


----------



## davidson

It appears I've been 'social distancing' my whole life, I just didn't know it was a thing.


----------



## Patrick.K

dzilizzi said:


> They don't put bidets in most US homes, unfortunately



The Japanese are more ingenious than us! ....


----------



## Patrick.K

Zero&One said:


> There may be a toilet roll shortage... but I ain't wiping my ass with that


Me too, it was only to relax the atmosphere! ... because I have a natural tendency to get nervous!


----------



## Zero&One

Patrick9152 said:


> Me too, it was only to relax the atmosphere! ... because I have a natural tendency to get nervous!



I've ordered 20 rolls, I'll be good for weeks now.


----------



## Tim_Wells

MartinH. said:


> So when stocks go "on sale" now, does that mean it's time to slowly start investing?


If you are a long-term investor, I would say now is a great time to invest. * Just be sure you don't need that money within 6-months to as much as 3-years, or maybe even longer.* Understand that the market may continue to go down for quite awhile. 

If you had bought the S&P 500 right before the crash in 2008, your investments would be way up... even today.


----------



## Patrick.K

Zero&One said:


> I've ordered 20 rolls, I'll be good for weeks now.


Seriously, I just realized that I only have two rolls ahead, I'm not planning enough for this kind of situation.
I'm going to have to eat a lot of rice.


----------



## visiblenoise

I haven't gone outside for over a week now and I think I'm happier than I was just prior...


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

marclawsonmusic said:


> Here is also a great source of data:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ArcGIS Dashboards Classic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By contrast, since Oct 2019 the seasonal flu has inflected 36 million and killed more than 22,000 in the US:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weekly U.S. Influenza Surveillance Report
> 
> 
> Learn more about the weekly influenza surveillance report (FluView) prepared by the Influenza Division.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov


Comparing Seasonal flu numbers to COVID-19 cases isn't useful.

Consider the trend. Flu numbers are going down, COVID-19 are going up. First slowly, then _really_ fast.


----------



## bvaughn0402

If anyone wants a thoughtful medical (nutritional) view of this virus, along with how viruses work in general ... I thought this was a good overview. (I respect anyone speaking on this who isn't selling something)

I know some here won't agree with these videos. But I just wanted to offer a little bit of "hope" of something you don't hear much in the news. The media is quick to discount nutrition as something that "crazy" people believe ... like it is the same people who believe in UFOs and Bigfoot. And there are some "crazy" stuff out there. For me, though, I try to tune out the crazy people and listen to those who 1) aren't selling anything, and 2) back up what they say by science and research. Two of my favorites are below.

One caveat ... the first Dr. is one of Chiropractic. If that is a big deal for anyone, you probably won't like the video. But I have found this guy to be quite informative and non-sensational in his views. Again, his view isn't that nutrition "cures" the virus ... but that nutrition strengthens the immune system to fight the virus (and our immune system is the #1 thing we have to fight the virus). His take on nutrition is also focuses more around food than supplements.



Here is a longer interview with a guy named Andrew Saul. Andrew is also a "doctor" but not medical. So if that turns you off, you might not want to watch this video. He is a nutritional researcher that works with various medical doctors on the use of vitamin treatments. His take (like above) isn't one that vitamins "cure" this ... just provide massive boosts to immune systems.

He talks about a lot of the media coverage (including their negative coverage of Vit C usage). One thing about Andrew I respect is that he does NOT sell any type of vitamin. He even refuses to recommend brands. That speaks a lot about his integrity even if you disagree with his view.

 

The news media is too quick to say "Crazy people on the internet are claiming that Vitamin C cures Coronavirus" ... and that isn't what they are saying! If anyone says that, they are either selling you something or are overgeneralizing that it does. But there is a lot of research to suggest it strengthens your immune system. And right now, IMO, every bit of help we can get should be explored.


----------



## Patrick.K

visiblenoise said:


> I haven't gone outside for over a week now and I think I'm happier than I was just prior...


This is the best thing to do, it is safer, because there is less risk of being run over by a shopping cart full of provisions !.


----------



## Giscard Rasquin

Made redundant temporarily and we have to stay inside our houses in Spain, so lots of time for music I suppose! 
Keep safe everybody!


----------



## JEPA

I see I spend most of my time now in "FOR SALE" Forum. Guys & Developers, make me offers! make me good offers!


----------



## Patrick.K

GuitarG said:


> Made redundant temporarily and we have to stay inside our houses in Spain, so lots of time for music I suppose!
> Keep safe everybody!



Not much spirit for music at the moment, I'm really worried, I feel empty mind.
I feel in the same mental state as the day of September 11,2001 bizzare feeling ...


----------



## MauroPantin

bvaughn0402 said:


> If anyone wants a thoughtful medical (nutritional) view of this virus, along with how viruses work in general ... I thought this was a good overview. (I respect anyone speaking on this who isn't selling something)
> 
> I know some here won't agree with these videos. But I just wanted to offer a little bit of "hope" of something you don't hear much in the news. The media is quick to discount nutrition as something that "crazy" people believe ... like it is the same people who believe in UFOs and Bigfoot. And there are some "crazy" stuff out there. For me, though, I try to tune out the crazy people and listen to those who 1) aren't selling anything, and 2) back up what they say by science and research. Two of my favorites are below.
> 
> One caveat ... the first Dr. is one of Chiropractic. If that is a big deal for anyone, you probably won't like the video. But I have found this guy to be quite informative and non-sensational in his views. Again, his view isn't that nutrition "cures" the virus ... but that nutrition strengthens the immune system to fight the virus (and our immune system is the #1 thing we have to fight the virus). His take on nutrition is also focuses more around food than supplements.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a longer interview with a guy named Andrew Saul. Andrew is also a "doctor" but not medical. So if that turns you off, you might not want to watch this video. He is a nutritional researcher that works with various medical doctors on the use of vitamin treatments. His take (like above) isn't one that vitamins "cure" this ... just provide massive boosts to immune systems.
> 
> He talks about a lot of the media coverage (including their negative coverage of Vit C usage). One thing about Andrew I respect is that he does NOT sell any type of vitamin. He even refuses to recommend brands. That speaks a lot about his integrity even if you disagree with his view.
> 
> 
> 
> The news media is too quick to say "Crazy people on the internet are claiming that Vitamin C cures Coronavirus" ... and that isn't what they are saying! If anyone says that, they are either selling you something or are overgeneralizing that it does. But there is a lot of research to suggest it strengthens your immune system. And right now, IMO, every bit of help we can get should be explored.




While I understand you are trying to help, you should know there is a medical concept called cytokine storm that is being suspected as a possible cause of death in young people with COVID-19. 

A cytokine storm is an overreaction of the immune system. It was also observed with SARS before. It has been reported by physicians as an occurrence in the way of anecdotal evidence (there's nothing definitive yet). So, paradoxically, perhaps a stronger immune system could cause a bigger problem in some younger individuals. This is not definitive, because the disease is new and the interactions are not well understood at the moment. 

I hope you don't take offense, I am merely trying to transmit the need to be careful with recommendations that seem harmless but might not be because of the things we don't know that we don't know.


----------



## patrick76

marclawsonmusic said:


> You asked how it's affecting me... I answered. Sorry if I didn't tow the line. Peace


I didn't ask you that, I only posted a video of someone doing something good for the population and you got quite angry with Obama and apparently any democrats. Fine. Also I have no idea what line you are supposed to tow. Peace.


----------



## cuttime

Covid-19: what happens once someone is infected? Science Weekly Extra


Nicola Davis hears how insights into influenza might reveal how our bodies react once Covid-19 takes hold




www.theguardian.com


----------



## Guy Bacos

Until today, hardly. But now the gyms (tennis center) have been shut down and I've been playing tennis twice a week for the past 8 years, for me it will be very hard to substitute this. Staying healthy in these times is important.


----------



## Per Boysen

Well, it seems I'm about to lose a rather cool gig in Berlin as well as two church concerts here in Sweden. My side job so far stays untouched though, as my teaching Swedish to foreign corporate professionals will move into a "virtual classroom" online platform, starting this Monday. Will save me two (commute) hours every day that I can schedule for composing, so it's not all bad


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Batrawi said:


> IMO, whatever isolation & hygienic measures that are currently being taken is nothing but "delaying the inevitable" whereby each and everyone on this planet will eventually be infected!
> 
> Natural selection shall take its course anyways, so I say lets speed up the process rather than waiting in fear. On this note............."CAUGH"




BATRAWI, THE WHOLE POINT IS TO *AVOID* SPEEDING UP THE PROCESS! That overwhelms our hospitals.


I haven't read this whole thread, but I sure hope nobody else has posted anything this insane. Taking it seriously is very, very dangerous.




Gingerbread said:


> For a single person like me, if I catch the virus, I won't be able to leave my home for probably 5 or more weeks. Being single, no one is doing my grocery errands for me. So I will need food AND yes, toilet paper (among other things) for that period of time. Pretty sensible, it seems to me, to be prepared.
> 
> And it's stuff I'd be buying anyway, if usually on a more gradual and extended time schedule.



Meanwhile, we need to wipe our asses and can't find any toilet paper in the stores.

And we're not selfish people trying to hoard it, we're close to running out.


----------



## youngpokie

MartinH. said:


> So when stocks go "on sale" now, does that mean it's time to slowly start investing?



Please please be careful. Europe and US have just shut down now, the economic data will not come out until April. So expect turbulence until then because nobody knows, and if the numbers for March are a disaster like China, it could be another big spike down. I've been looking for info on this today, it seems like the current projections from Task Force are: either peak mid April (best case) or peak mid June (worst case). 

If you want to start buying stocks now, maybe reduce the amounts and spread them over time. And avoid things that are being impacted right now (airlines, hotels, restaurant chains, malls, etc) until there is more clarity on the peak of the epidemic. 

Why not talk to your broker (if you trust them)?


----------



## Patrick.K

Guy Bacos said:


> Until today, hardly. But now the gyms (tennis center) have been shut down and I've been playing tennis twice a week for the past 8 years, for me it will be very hard to substitute this. Staying healthy in these times is important.


Playing tennis seems very risky, because the ball is constantly manipulated with the hands, and therefore with each strike,
the virus disperses and risks being inhaled by the player! .But maybe I am wrong?
If I were you Guy, I would be confined to composing music, because you have a lot of talent and I love what you do.


----------



## ptram

I work for a company owning a factory in China. The factory was shut for Christmas, and is slowly reopening only now. The good news is that return to normality is real, even if gradual. In the meantime, all the workers have been confined to their homes, and foreign workers have had to remain out of the country for all these months.

Production in China has stopped. Production in Western factories, when depending on Chinese components, has slowed for lack of parts. In any case, orders from Asia have greatly slowed, and I foresee the same will happen from the Western countries while the wave deploys.

My country is home of the typical surreal Italian tragic comedy. While most physicians, and the leaders of some local administrations, insisted to shut everything down, the national government pretended to keep all open. Since the virus was initially called 'Chinese', all references to the virus were considered 'racist' and had to be avoided. The leader of one of the main government parties invited everybody to go out for an aperitivo at the end of February (he is now in quarantine for having got the virus). My region's administration shut all, and the national government asked the tribunal to force all open again. We are now the second most struggling region in the country.

Finally, the lockdown came. A bit at a time, to give the virus more time to spread. Now, there is police at each corner, asking people where they are going. You are free to declare that you are going to make love with your lover, and there is little they can do to stop you. In fact, in many towns there are people (in particular young people) having parties as if nothing was happening. But I would say that mostly it is working.

I've been ill, and in addition to the fever there has been the distress of not knowing what I'd got. No doctor could visit me, because my doctor is on the edge of exhaustion, and the public structures are forbidden. Most hospitals are being reconverted fast. All departments, in the local and other hospitals, including oncology and surgery, have been shut to make room for more places in intensive care. Retired doctors have been asked to come back to work.

But food supplies are still good. Isn't this all that matters?

Paolo


----------



## Uiroo

ptram said:


> I work for a company owning a factory in China. The factory was shut for Christmas, and is slowly reopening only now. The good news is that return to normality is real, even if gradual. In the meantime, all the workers have been confined to their homes, and foreign workers have had to remain out of the country for all these months.
> 
> Production in China has stopped. Production in Western factories, when depending on Chinese components, has slowed for lack of parts. In any case, orders from Asia have greatly slowed, and I foresee the same will happen from the Western countries while the wave deploys.
> 
> My country is home of the typical surreal Italian tragic comedy. While most physicians, and the leaders of some local administrations, insisted to shut everything down, the national government pretended to keep all open. Since the virus was initially called 'Chinese', all references to the virus were considered 'racist' and had to be avoided. The leader of one of the main government parties invited everybody to go out for an aperitivo at the end of February (he is now in quarantine for having got the virus). My region's administration shut all, and the national government asked the tribunal to force all open again. We are now the second most struggling region in the country.
> 
> Finally, the lockdown came. A bit at a time, to give the virus more time to spread. Now, there is police at each corner, asking people where they are going. You are free to declare that you are going to make love with your lover, and there is little they can do to stop you. In fact, in many town there are people (in particular young people) having parties as if nothing was happening. But I would say that mostly it is working.
> 
> I've been ill, and in addition to the fever there has been the distress of not knowing what I'd got. No doctor could visit me, because my doctor is on the edge of exhaustion, and the public structures are forbidden. Most hospitals are being reconverted fast. All departments, in the local and other hospitals, including oncology and surgery, have been shut to make room for more place in intensive care. Retired doctors have been asked to come back to work.
> 
> But food supplies are still good. Isn't this all that matter?
> 
> Paolo


Oh man, I wish you all the best, sounds dark. With people partying at times like these, it's hard not to get bitter...


----------



## Patrick.K

Uiroo said:


> Oh man, I wish you all the best, sounds dark. With people partying at times like these, it's hard not to get bitter...


The unconsciousness of youth !.
Some understand quickly, but you have to explain to them for a long time!


----------



## Guy Bacos

Patrick9152 said:


> Playing tennis seems very risky, because the ball is constantly manipulated with the hands, and therefore with each strike,
> the virus disperses and risks being inhaled by the player! .But maybe I am wrong?
> If I were you Guy, I would be confined to composing music, because you have a lot of talent and I love what you do.



That's true, and a good point. At the early stages of the Coronavirus, before sports events were cancelled, it was talked about that ball boys/girls would wear gloves.

I guess my enthousism for tennis is hurting these days, and it's almost embarrassing to admit, but I enjoy playing tennis more than music, even though I LOVE music! Thanks for your kind words.


----------



## Polkasound

Patrick9152 said:


> Playing tennis seems very risky, because the ball is constantly manipulated with the hands, and therefore with each strike,
> the virus disperses and risks being inhaled by the player! .But maybe I am wrong?



It depends on whether or not someone else on the court has the virus. If they did, then surely everyone else playing on an indoor court would get it too, because everyone is breathing heavily, and because the ball is spinning like crazy and being struck, which would continually launch spores into the air.



Guy Bacos said:


> I guess my enthousism for tennis is hurting these days, and it's almost embarrassing to admit, but I enjoy playing tennis more than music.



I played tennis for years before my knees went bad. I really miss it. For me, too, it usually took priority over music.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Batrawi said:


> IMO, whatever isolation & hygienic measures that are currently being taken is nothing but "delaying the inevitable" whereby each and everyone on this planet will eventually be infected!
> 
> Natural selection shall take its course anyways, so I say lets speed up the process rather than waiting in fear. On this note............."CAUGH"


----------



## chillbot

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Meanwhile, we need to wipe our asses and can't find any toilet paper in the stores.



Nick Amazon still has this in stock with prime delivery you can have it in a day:


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

chillbot said:


> Nick Amazon still has this in stock with prime delivery you can have it in a day:




haha

We actually have the toilet brush that goes with that.


----------



## Guy Bacos

Polkasound said:


> It depends on whether or not someone else on the court has the virus. If they did, then surely everyone else playing on an indoor court would get it too, because everyone is breathing heavily, and because the ball is spinning like crazy and being struck, which would continually launch spores into the air.
> 
> 
> 
> I played tennis for years before my knees went bad. I really miss it. For me, too, it usually took priority over music.



I take a LOT of lessons, and to get more extreme, or maybe not, the balls have been handled by dozens of people per day, so who knows? I guess if tennis courts weren't shut down, I'd be wearing thin gloves, because I think keeping healthy is important for your immune system.


----------



## chillbot

Guy Bacos said:


> I take a LOT of lessons, and to get more extreme, or maybe not, the balls have been handled by dozens of people per day, so who knows? I guess if tennis courts weren't shut down, I'd be wearing thin gloves, because I think keeping healthy is important for your immune system.


I feel you, man. I have played pickup basketball 3 hours a day, 4 days a week, for 20 years. I never miss it. Like realistically I play 50/52 weeks of the year. All the gyms and all my leagues and all my pickup games are shut down now. It's fine, of course, I'll live, it's totally selfish to miss it so much. But anyway it's a massive difference in my routine, I feel your pain.


----------



## MauroPantin

@ptram if this wasn't all so tragic certain parts of your account of the situation could be a right out of a Fellini movie. I fear we in Argentina might not be far behind you guys, we share a lot culturally, so your post hit home in a lot of ways. Those things haven't happened here YET, but they're perfectly plausible. Best wishes to you and stay safe!


----------



## MartinH.

ptram said:


> I've been ill, and in addition to the fever there has been the distress of not knowing what I'd got. No doctor could visit me, because my doctor is on the edge of exhaustion, and the public structures are forbidden. Most hospitals are being reconverted fast. All departments, in the local and other hospitals, including oncology and surgery, have been shut to make room for more place in intensive care. Retired doctors have been asked to come back to work.



Good luck and get well soon! I called my doctor today (I wanted to know if I can get vaccinated against influenza) and asked him how I can spot corona from a regular cold and he said "you can't". But he said if it's a regular influenza it's characteristic that it hits you like a train, like feeling fine in the morning and being bedridden already in the evening. Corona should very likely have a considerably slower development, more like a regular cold. He seemed very chill about the whole situation.





Tim_Wells said:


> If you are a long-term investor, I would say now is a great time to invest. * Just be sure you don't need that money within 6-months to as much as 3-years, or maybe even longer.* Understand that the market may continue to go down for quite awhile.
> 
> If you had bought the S&P 500 right before the crash in 2008, your investments would be way up... even today.





youngpokie said:


> Please please be careful. Europe and US have just shut down now, the economic data will not come out until April. So expect turbulence until then because nobody knows, and if the numbers for March are a disaster like China, it could be another big spike down. I've been looking for info on this today, it seems like the current projections from Task Force are: either peak mid April (best case) or peak mid June (worst case).
> 
> If you want to start buying stocks now, maybe reduce the amounts and spread them over time. And avoid things that are being impacted right now (airlines, hotels, restaurant chains, malls, etc) until there is more clarity on the peak of the epidemic.
> 
> Why not talk to your broker (if you trust them)?



Thanks to you both for the advice! I don't have much experience with stocks, but slowly starting now felt like a good time. So far I only invested in... im not sure what they're called in English, mutual funds maybe? Stuff where I see they don't get hit by catastrophies as hard but many years later and after corona the portfolio is yet again worth slightly less than I put into it originally 5+ years ago. Feels like the only ones making bank there are the funds managers and the broker who talked me into it. I have roughly half of my savings in that account and I'm not looking to invest more into that class of investments, but that's the stuff that a broker/advisor would recommend to me if I asked them again.

Friends of mine have been buying stocks or ETFs over the recent years and right now they're probably not super happy with how their portfolio is doing, but for me it seems like a great time to finally start buying some ETFs. Not all at once of course! And also not with all of my cash savings!

I have bought a small ETF position already and will wait for the next spike down. Thanks for the info, sounds like in April or so may be a good time to buy some more. I'm prepared to keep that up and keep buying dips for quite a while and I'm aware it might take years to recover fully. Thanks for the warning! 

I don't want to touch any stocks of individual companies, seems too high risk to me compared to MSCI world ETFs.





Uiroo said:


> With people partying at times like these, it's hard not to get bitter...


Our neighbors had guests over on friday or saturday. I think I heard her cough a lot today...


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Guy Bacos said:


> I take a LOT of lessons, and to get more extreme, or maybe not, the balls have been handled by dozens of people per day, so who knows? I guess if tennis courts weren't shut down, I'd be wearing thin gloves, because I think keeping healthy is important for your immune system.



Look me up if you're in Los Angeles!

I'm working hard to get back on the court after successive minor injuries (not from tennis), but by the time you make it this will be behind us and my timing will be back.


----------



## Guy Bacos

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Look me up if you're in Los Angeles!
> 
> I'm working hard to get back on the court after successive minor injuries (not from tennis), but by the time you make it this will be behind us and my timing will be back.



Cool!


----------



## gsilbers

So has anyone here gotten it yet?


----------



## dzilizzi

MartinH. said:


> Thanks to you both for the advice! I don't have much experience with stocks, but slowly starting now felt like a good time. So far I only invested in... im not sure what they're called in English, mutual funds maybe? Stuff where I see they don't get hit by catastrophies as hard but many years later and after corona the portfolio is yet again worth slightly less than I put into it originally 5+ years ago. Feels like the only ones making bank there are the funds managers and the broker who talked me into it. I have roughly half of my savings in that account and I'm not looking to invest more into that class of investments, but that's the stuff that a broker/advisor would recommend to me if I asked them again.
> 
> Friends of mine have been buying stocks or ETFs over the recent years and right now they're probably not super happy with how their portfolio is doing, but for me it seems like a great time to finally start buying some ETFs. Not all at once of course! And also not with all of my cash savings!
> 
> I have bought a small ETF position already and will wait for the next spike down. Thanks for the info, sounds like in April or so may be a good time to buy some more. I'm prepared to keep that up and keep buying dips for quite a while and I'm aware it might take years to recover fully. Thanks for the warning!
> 
> I don't want to touch any stocks of individual companies, seems too high risk to me compared to MSCI world ETFs.


I'm not a stock broker or anything, but my research has shown that for long term investments where you want to place and forget, the best ones are S&P 500 funds. They mirror the market which, long term, generally equals the better funds. Diversity is your friend for long term investment. If you want to do individual stocks, you generally have to watch and sell if they start dropping. It is a lot of work.


----------



## Batrawi

Nick Batzdorf said:


> BATRAWI, THE WHOLE POINT IS TO *AVOID* SPEEDING UP THE PROCESS! That overwhelms our hospitals.


And what's the point of overwhelming hospitals if there is no cure yet? 
Also what's the point of overwhelming hospitals even if there is a cure, supposedly most people should be able to take it by themselves? Hospitals should prioritize their capacity to old people, or people with persistent health/immunity issues, unless this study is saying that hospitals are not even able to do that!!!!


----------



## dzilizzi

Batrawi said:


> And what's the point of overwhelming hospitals if there is no cure yet?
> Also what's the point of overwhelming hospitals even if there is a cure, supposedly most people should be able to take it by themselves? Hospitals should prioritize their capacity to old people, or people with persistent health/immunity issues, unless this study is saying that hospitals are not even able to do that!!!!


The problem is all those people that go to the ER with a cough. Things that some cough syrup and cold medicine could help. Because, OMG! they are dying now! They don't understand that the ER is not for regular care but for emergencies. It gets over-whelmed, people who weren't sick, pick up something, etc...


----------



## averystemmler

Batrawi said:


> And what's the point of overwhelming hospitals if there is no cure yet?
> Also what's the point of overwhelming hospitals even if there is a cure, supposedly most people should be able to take it by themselves? Hospitals should prioritize their capacity to old people, or people with persistent health/immunity issues, unless this study is saying that hospitals are not even able to do that!!!!



In case you haven't seen it, this is why it is better to slow the spread:









The Extraordinary Decisions Facing Italian Doctors


There are now simply too many patients for each one of them to receive adequate care.




www.theatlantic.com





There are certain expensive devices that are required to keep people with severe cases - young and old - breathing. If there are too many people who need them at the same time, somebody has to decide who lives and who dies. The measures discussed in this article are to follow triage principles around likelihood of success. This means that the elderly and people with preexisting conditions that might otherwise lower their remaining "life years" even after recovering from this virus might be denied care.

As someone with loved ones in both of those categories, I would very much like to avoid this.


----------



## Bluemount Score

gsilbers said:


> So has anyone here gotten it yet?


Don't yet even know anybody in person who got it. Yet...


----------



## Patrick.K

Guy Bacos said:


> That's true, and a good point. At the early stages of the Coronavirus, before sports events were cancelled, it was talked about that ball boys/girls would wear gloves.
> 
> I guess my enthousism for tennis is hurting these days, and it's almost embarrassing to admit, but I enjoy playing tennis more than music, even though I LOVE music! Thanks for your kind words.


Thank you Guy, for answering me so kindly. Take care of yourself.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Batrawi said:


> And what's the point of overwhelming hospitals if there is no cure yet?
> Also what's the point of overwhelming hospitals even if there is a cure, supposedly most people should be able to take it by themselves? Hospitals should prioritize their capacity to old people, or people with persistent health/immunity issues, unless this study is saying that hospitals are not even able to do that!!!!



Supportive care. Respirators (oxygen) for the pneumonia-like symptoms.

Seriously, you really, really need to become informed about this. 









Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)


CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.




www.cdc.gov


----------



## Patrick.K

Guy Bacos said:


> That's true, and a good point. At the early stages of the Coronavirus, before sports events were cancelled, it was talked about that ball boys/girls would wear gloves.
> 
> I guess my enthousism for tennis is hurting these days, and it's almost embarrassing to admit, but I enjoy playing tennis more than music, even though I LOVE music! Thanks for your kind words.


Tennis or music ... I choose music, but maybe it's because I don't play anymore, and I play tennis while watching matches on TV, but Rolland-Garros seems to be compromised this year?.


----------



## Guy Bacos

Patrick9152 said:


> Tennis or music ... I choose music, but maybe it's because I don't play anymore, and I play tennis while watching matches on TV, but Rolland-Garros seems to be compromised this year?.



Possibly Wimbledon too. Crazy!!


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

And both the Lakers and Clippers have great teams this year, and were just peaking in time for the playoffs!


----------



## Stringtree

Tennis, that's hilarious. Either one of my arms would fall off at this point. Among the smaller episodes like trying to scratch my own back, or lift a cake, I've suffered dislocated shoulder injuries from:

Punching the air during shooting a video for a high school science fair winner
Hopping the fence at a stadium after being locked in while installing sound equipment
Participating in stripper pole shenanigans at an office party at a bowling alley

The looseness of my shoulder joints has something to do with strumming guitar for many years, that sort of repetitive motion. 

At this point I would simply disarticulate from coughing. Or laughing. Screw you, virus. It's tennis that scares me to death. 

Greg


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Batrawi said:


> And what's the point of overwhelming hospitals if there is no cure yet?


The virus makes it so people cannot breath. Hospitals have a limited supply of equipment (and technicians) that will keep these people alive who cannot breath on their own. And the treatment works, it saves lives.

This is expensive and hospitals can only do this for a small number of people at any given time. If a huge percentage of the population is sick at the same time, most will not get access to these few life-saving machines and will die.

If that same percentage gets sick, but spread out over a longer period of time because you slowed the spread, then more people will be able to get treated, recover, and then free up resources for the next person.

That is why slowing the spread will save lives. It will also save the lives of healthcare workers, who won't have the pressure of working around the clock and--in some cases--getting sick themselves.

---

Or, if you prefer, think of it this way: Would you rather pay a small hospital bill, or instead spend that cash buying _every single Spitfire Library ever released_.


----------



## Bluemount Score

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Or, if you prefer, think of it this way: Would you rather pay a small hospital bill, or instead spend that cash buying _every single Spitfire Library ever released_.


Now it all makes sense


----------



## MartinH.

dzilizzi said:


> I'm not a stock broker or anything, but my research has shown that for long term investments where you want to place and forget, the best ones are S&P 500 funds. They mirror the market which, long term, generally equals the better funds. Diversity is your friend for long term investment. If you want to do individual stocks, you generally have to watch and sell if they start dropping. It is a lot of work.



Yeah, something like that sounds good. The ETFs I was looking at just mirror the market too as far as I can tell, so the curve looks very similar to the S&P 500.


Getting political, enter ye who dares: 


Spoiler



I'm in no position to claim any moral superiority, because I buy the same cheap stuff made by chinese slave labour as almost everybody else, but investing into S&P 500 means directly investing into companies involved in making: cluster munitions, depleted uranium ammunition, nuclear weapons, tobacco products, guns, and iPhones. Source: https://www.ishares.com/uk/individual/en/products/253743/ 

I'm not saying I'm above taking that blood money, but it at least makes me hesitate and think, since alternatively you can invest into an ETF that has none of that, and has less than half the CO2 emissions per Million $ in sales: https://www.ishares.com/uk/individual/en/products/291392/

I thought it's super nice that they are so upfront about these things on their website. I genuinely did not expect that. What irritates me is, that this must be some EU regulation or similar, because on the US site, I couldn't find that info (so if it's there, it's hidden), and I can't find the ETF from the second link at all with their search. Not sure what's going on there. They do prominently market some especially sustainable ETF options in the US, but without the clear info like on the EU sites, I'm not sure what "counts" as sustainable for them.






Stringtree said:


> Tennis, that's hilarious. Either one of my arms would fall off at this point. Among the smaller episodes like trying to scratch my own back, or lift a cake, I've suffered dislocated shoulder injuries from:
> 
> Punching the air during shooting a video for a high school science fair winner
> Hopping the fence at a stadium after being locked in while installing sound equipment
> Participating in stripper pole shenanigans at an office party at a bowling alley
> 
> The looseness of my shoulder joints has something to do with strumming guitar for many years, that sort of repetitive motion.
> 
> At this point I would simply disarticulate from coughing. Or laughing. Screw you, virus. It's tennis that scares me to death.
> 
> Greg



Were you playing intense music like metal or similar, or were you just playing too much in general? I'm getting shoulder pain recently too and was wondering whether it's from playing guitar more often.


----------



## sostenuto

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Supportive care. Respirators (oxygen) for the pneumonia-like symptoms.
> 
> Seriously, you really, really need to become informed about this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
> 
> 
> CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov



*??* Now officially: SARS-CoV-2 *??*


----------



## cuttime

sostenuto said:


> *??* Now officially: SARS-CoV-2 *??*


SARS-CoV-2 is the name of the virus. COVID-19 is the name of the disease.


----------



## dzilizzi

sostenuto said:


> *??* Now officially: SARS-CoV-2 *??*


Same family from what I understand.


----------



## Stringtree

MartinH. said:


> Were you playing intense music like metal or similar, or were you just playing too much in general? I'm getting shoulder pain recently too and was wondering whether it's from playing guitar more often.



Years of self-taught strumming. There was a joke in there somewhere. Stringed instruments seem to have really unnatural playing positions. I wore that Alvarez out and my shoulder.

It's all just gallows humor; that's how I deal with terror. It's closing in here in Ohio. At work, doing sound for crowds, then a new additional job where somebody is returning from SE Asia, sodden discarded masks in a parking lot or store aisle. Restaurants, bars, now gyms and bowling alleys, museums, next state agencies. Chemical wipes littering the aisles at stores.

A piano player sneezed during a rehearsal behind me and I jumped at least a foot off the ground. 

Can I get a "Put 'er there!" and an outstretched hand? How will people ever learn to touch again?

I've been around a few people who are blotchy, bleary, sneezy, runny. 

Crap. The recommended gathering size is ten. Soon, even the dwarves will be have to cancel.

Greg


----------



## Tim_Wells

MartinH. said:


> Friends of mine have been buying stocks or ETFs over the recent years and right now they're probably not super happy with how their portfolio is doing, but for me it seems like a great time to finally start buying some ETFs. Not all at once of course! And also not with all of my cash savings!
> 
> I have bought a small ETF position already and will wait for the next spike down. Thanks for the info, sounds like in April or so may be a good time to buy some more. I'm prepared to keep that up and keep buying dips for quite a while and I'm aware it might take years to recover fully. Thanks for the warning!
> 
> I don't want to touch any stocks of individual companies, seems too high risk to me compared to MSCI world ETFs.


You are exactly right. Go with index funds/ETFs. As dzilizzi said, an S&P 500 index fund or ETF is an excellent way to go. However, I'm not sure what country you're in. So if you're outside the US, you'll want to consider the tax implications of that investment.

Personally, I would not wait for April to start investing. I would start investing small amounts now. But you have to do what is right for you. 

Warren Buffett says the time to be fearful is when others are greedy. And the time to be greedy is when others are fearful.


----------



## Patrick.K

Guy Bacos said:


> Possibly Wimbledon too. Crazy!!


Or Flushing Meadows ?...Let's be optimistic !


----------



## Dewdman42

This is something I am watching very closely also. Today’s closing is a good price. I personally think it’s not the bottom yet and we have MONTHS of hardship in front of us that is going to take a toll on the market not only in the short term but perhaps a serious recession is starting now. There is over 3t dollar sitting in money markets right now from the sell off. When the virus starts to go away and there is light at the end of the tunnel, at some point I do expect a massive rebound in the S&P, but i also predict that the next two months are going to create incredible damage to the economic fundamentals that all the talking heads are in denial about right now. We are in unprecedented territory right now. This will not be over in April. May at least before we see the light at the end of the tunnel. Many people are still in denial about how bad this really is. The worst is yet to come.

my advice is that if you were already planning to buy into the s&p anyway, right now is certainly a better time to buy in then it was a month ago. However there is still room for it to go down from here. Make sure you can sit on your new investment for a few years if that happens. It will rebound eventually it’s only a question of how long it will take but I feel right now that people out of work for the next month or possibly two is going to have far reaching economic impacts that are going to take a while. Being in cash means you will be able to sweep up other kinds of opportunities when the housing market crashes, etc...

the fed going to zero was a Hail Mary pass and that’s why the market reacted today, they can see this is unprecedented. 1932 comes to my mind quite frankly.

lastly I will also say, I know at least half a dozen people that are sitting there with their cash waiting for that they think will be the bottom to buy in. That is their greed. They are ready to pounce. But the question is related to the truth from Warren buffet about going the opposite direction of the herd. My gut instinct is telling me that we could be on the verge of a much larger and longer lasting economic downturn. Be very careful about trying to time the market and hoping to get in and out quick. If you’re buying for long term hold you’ll be ok either way honestly. Right now is not a bad time to buy in based in that. But there is a potential for a very long recession going into 2021. Imho. So make sure you will not need to sell anytime soon.


----------



## Guy Bacos




----------



## BlackDorito




----------



## bvaughn0402

Nick Batzdorf said:


> And both the Lakers and Clippers have great teams this year, and were just peaking in time for the playoffs!



It's sad ... but I SO agree on that! I was so looking forward to them playing each in the playoffs.


----------



## toomanynotes

Guy Bacos said:


> Possibly Wimbledon too. Crazy!!


Excellent news for Federer....maybe yet he can preserve his tally, making his nemesis’s wait another year...by then they hopefully will lose their momentum. I rub my hands in anticipation


----------



## Bluemount Score

Homeoffice starts today


----------



## KarlHeinz

My dental treatment was just cancelled today. They did not treat their patients anymore for 14 days (maybe if you are short before dying, I dont know). I have a medicament filled into a tooth and only sealed provisionally, medicament should be changed today, now nothing and I am sure in 14 days they will have closed the practice completely, as dentist in germany they will have their millions already on the site so who cares about the patients.....I must say I am totally f...... and that opens a view in a future that really looks scaring (at least to me).


----------



## Henu

I'm currently working remotely, designing soundtrack flow and composing demos for a game. REALLY easy to concentrate when there's an invasion of Sylvanian Families and a 5-year old on my studio room. :D


----------



## JEPA

JEPA said:


> Spring is coming! come on global warming, DO SOMETHING!


I take it back, please global warming go away!!!! Let us have a harmonic healthy normal climate pls!!! (have heard this morning on radio that Europe is becoming "tropical" like in the tropic rain/dry seassons.... )


----------



## Giscard Rasquin

Patrick9152 said:


> Not much spirit for music at the moment, I'm really worried, I feel empty mind.
> I feel in the same mental state as the day of September 11,2001 bizzare feeling ...



Felt like that the first couple of days as well, as I also have a family to feed but then realized that there´s nothing to gain by being worried and decided I´m going to take advantage to the maximum of this time off to study orchestration and write lots of songs for the music libraries I work with! 
Hope you can set the worries aside and make some time for music!


----------



## Iswhatitis

davidson said:


> It appears I've been 'social distancing' my whole life, I just didn't know it was a thing.


As time has passed in my life I slowly but surely realize who the users and takers are more quickly and have gotten rid of most


Tim_Wells said:


> If you are a long-term investor, I would say now is a great time to invest. * Just be sure you don't need that money within 6-months to as much as 3-years, or maybe even longer.* Understand that the market may continue to go down for quite awhile.
> 
> If you had bought the S&P 500 right before the crash in 2008, your investments would be way up... even today.


Wait till the S&P500 gets to 2000 to start accumulating. No point in buying at this level as we are going lower. The ultimate bottom probably happens between 1450-1825.


----------



## mikeh-375

UK semi Lockdown day 1...full lockdown coming to a county, city, town, village, street and house/flat near you soon.

Shit. This report below is scary. If you think it'll be done and dusted in a few months and want to hold on to that thought don't click the link. @NoamL , thanks for your input here.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...id-19-nhs-government-scientists-a9404636.html

I intend to write either a string quartet or complete my second symphony during incarceration.


----------



## MartinH.

KarlHeinz said:


> My dental treatment was just cancelled today. They did not treat their patients anymore for 14 days (maybe if you are short before dying, I dont know). I have a medicament filled into a tooth and only sealed provisionally, medicament should be changed today, now nothing and I am sure in 14 days they will have closed the practice completely, as dentist in germany they will have their millions already on the site so who cares about the patients.....I must say I am totally f...... and that opens a view in a future that really looks scaring (at least to me).



Well that sucks. But to give you some hope, I had at least half a dozen Root canal treatments in Germany and I remember that a dentist told me it's not a problem to leave the thing with the provisional filling in there for longer than the 2 weeks. But I highly recommend you're really carefull with that filling now, so it doesn't pop out or break. So don't chew anything hard or crunchy or sticky (bubblegum etc.). I think I've had one of those for a while longer than the standard two weeks too. You're lucky they took the nerve out before they closed, because that's a real bitch if you have to sit through the process of a dental nerve dying, and it can have some bad consequences after that too. I was on a big metal festival when that happened to one of my teeth... not fun.
If your provisional filling does break or pop out, I recommend using mouthwash to try your best to keep it clean, but you shouldn't feel any pain, because the nerve is already gone. Good luck!




Tim_Wells said:


> You are exactly right. Go with index funds/ETFs. As dzilizzi said, an S&P 500 index fund or ETF is an excellent way to go. However, I'm not sure what country you're in. So if you're outside the US, you'll want to consider the tax implications of that investment.
> 
> Personally, I would not wait for April to start investing. I would start investing small amounts now. But you have to do what is right for you.
> 
> Warren Buffett says the time to be fearful is when others are greedy. And the time to be greedy is when others are fearful.



Thanks! I'm in Germany, so income from these things is taxed at 25% (possibly the only tax thing that we have, that isn't complicated x] ). I think there's only one extra tax beyond that, if the income is from trading instead of investing, so I'd need to hold for at least a year I think to avoid that additional tax. 

I've already bought some on friday and it's only 5% down since then. I would want to either see some more time pass or the price go down further before I buy the next batch on the way to the bottom.

Would you recommend to look for buying after every x% drop since the last buy or rather just spread it out over time to buy once a month like on a savings plan, not trying to micro-manage too much?


----------



## KarlHeinz

> But to give you some hope, I had at least half a dozen Root canal treatments in Germany and I remember that a dentist told me it's not a problem to leave the thing with the provisional filling in there for longer than the 2 weeks.



Thanks for the info, I am really kind of afraid cause it was already a long and painful two weeks with wrong diagnostic, emergency ambulance and evrything till I get to where I am now.

And I cant really understand parts of the medical treatment just fading away already by self-decision (in the actual government annotation the healthcare was exepted from closing what of course makes sense.

And dentist really dont have the worst job in the medicine business (if you think of how many there are, nearly no weekend emergency service and lots of money for their work compared for example to the pediatricians I have to get to know while my daugher was ill).


----------



## Anders Wall

JohnG said:


> lots of fallout for people in school, playing concerts, workplaces. All the children's schools online as of next week.


Yup, a month of work is ...puff ... gone.
Roughly $15k
I was supposed to travel to Italy as a sound engineer, After that I had a new Tv-show with ambulances and mobile healthcare booked, I guess they have more important things to do than to pose for tv :O

A more serious thing is that my mother is more or less stuck in Thailand.
She's been on vacation there since early this year. I could make lots of bad jokes about where she is and such, but her being close to 70 makes me think before laugh about it.
New money is easier to make than to make a new mother.
So I hope she'll get a plane soon or at least before we don't have those anymore.

Best,
Anders


----------



## JEPA

Hoping the best for all of you/us !


----------



## Patrick.K

Tim_Wells said:


> If you are a long-term investor, I would say now is a great time to invest. * Just be sure you don't need that money within 6-months to as much as 3-years, or maybe even longer.* Understand that the market may continue to go down for quite awhile.
> 
> If you had bought the S&P 500 right before the crash in 2008, your investments would be way up... even today.




I may be wrong, but far from me, the thoughts of making money in such a dramatic moment for humanity ...


----------



## sIR dORT

Total golf fanatic here, and this is kinda on the small end of the problem spectrum, but there's a shot that my entire HS golf season gets canceled (and maybe some of my events/qualifiers after that too), and being a senior whose team had the best odds of winning state, I'm just sitting here and really hoping that doesn't happen.

If they cancel the Masters entirely I might have a breakdown.

Also my hockey team (Wild) was 1 point out of a playoff spot with like 8-9 games left when the season paused, so that's fun.

Hoping that those of you at risk are staying healthy!


----------



## Patrick.K

GuitarG said:


> Felt like that the first couple of days as well, as I also have a family to feed but then realized that there´s nothing to gain by being worried and decided I´m going to take advantage to the maximum of this time off to study orchestration and write lots of songs for the music libraries I work with!
> Hope you can set the worries aside and make some time for music!


Thank you, yes, you are right, I think it is not good to be anxious.


----------



## Tim_Wells

MartinH. said:


> Thanks! I'm in Germany, so income from these things is taxed at 25% (possibly the only tax thing that we have, that isn't complicated x] ). I think there's only one extra tax beyond that, if the income is from trading instead of investing, so I'd need to hold for at least a year I think to avoid that additional tax.
> 
> I've already bought some on friday and it's only 5% down since then. I would want to either see some more time pass or the price go down further before I buy the next batch on the way to the bottom.
> 
> Would you recommend to look for buying after every x% drop since the last buy or rather just spread it out over time to buy once a month like on a savings plan, not trying to micro-manage too much?


Guten Tag, Martin! 

Regarding your last question, either method would be great. But if you really want to maximize your eventual gains, buying after every dip would be ideal. Assuming you have the time and patience for that.

You're probably being much smarter than me by spreading it out over time. I went fully invested yesterday and I'm sure there's a lot more bad news to come. But I figure in six to 18 months it will look like I bought at a great price.


----------



## Patrick.K

Tim_Wells said:


> Guten Tag, Martin!
> 
> Regarding your last question, either method would be great. But if you really want to maximize your eventual gains, buying after every dip would be ideal. Assuming you have the time and patience for that.
> 
> You're probably being much smarter than me by spreading it out over time. I went fully invested yesterday and I'm sure there's a lot more bad news to come. But I figure in six to 18 months it will look like I bought at a great price.



I may be wrong, but far from me, the thoughts of making money in such a dramatic moment for humanity ...


----------



## mikeh-375

I'd just like to say something about the link I posted in post 449 above. The article states that 30% of the UK population could be in intensive care by the beginning of April. This surely has to be an error and more likely it means that 30% of _those hospitalised_ _might_ need IC treatment....well here's hoping anyway.


----------



## Tim_Wells

Patrick9152 said:


> I may be wrong, but far from me, the thoughts of making money in such a dramatic moment for humanity ...


That's a fair point. No one is trying dance around with glee while so many are suffering. 

Many people are loosing money right now and the poorest and those that can afford it the least are hurting the most. It's a rotten situation and I hate it! 

But this is a thread about how about how the virus is affecting our lives and someone (not me) posed the question as to whether this was a good time to invest. I think it's an important question that also matters to people lives.


----------



## Greg

sIR dORT said:


> Total golf fanatic here,



I understand cancelling major golf events but I wonder if courses will stay open? The sport is basically the best one for social distancing if they close the club house and only let you play in your own groups of 2-3, no carts, keep flags in the hole, etc.


----------



## Patrick.K

Tim_Wells said:


> That's a fair point. No one is trying dance around with glee while so many are suffering.
> 
> Many people are loosing money right now and the poorest and those that can afford it the least are hurting the most. It's a rotten situation and I hate it!
> 
> But this is a thread about how about how the virus is affecting our lives and someone (not me) posed the question as to whether this was a good time to invest. I think it's an important question that also matters to people lives.


Yes, but talking about an investment opportunity, or just having the idea of it bothers me a lot.
But perhaps it is more pleasant to die from the virus knowing that we have made good financial transactions ...


----------



## Patrick.K

Greg said:


> I understand cancelling major golf events but I wonder if courses will stay open? The sport is basically the best one for social distancing if they close the club house and only let you play in your own groups of 2-3, no carts, keep flags in the hole, etc.



I finally understood why we do not currently find toilet roll paper ...!


----------



## Patrick.K

Guy Bacos said:


> Possibly Wimbledon too. Crazy!!


Finally, the Rolland-Garros Tennis tournament is postponed to the end of September


----------



## Dewdman42

Greg said:


> I understand cancelling major golf events but I wonder if courses will stay open? The sport is basically the best one for social distancing if they close the club house and only let you play in your own groups of 2-3, no carts, keep flags in the hole, etc.



the same could be asked about ski resorts which have nearly all shut down. Part of the problem is staff.

mid this problem persists for 12-18 months as had been suggested by the uk article, then we will have to figure out how to keep essential businesses operating in some kind of safe way. i do not think golf courses will remain open


----------



## Tim_Wells

Patrick9152 said:


> Yes, but talking about an investment opportunity, or just having the idea of it bothers me a lot.
> But perhaps it is more pleasant to die from the virus knowing that we have made good financial transactions ...


Perhaps. But if I believed I was about to die, I wouldn't be worried about what people were saying on a virtual instrument discussion forum.

And by-the-way, why is it okay to make jokes about playing golf? That bothers me a lot. We should be sad and waiting to die.


----------



## MauroPantin

Think of investments this way: The people investing right now in biotech betting they will make a profit if and once a vaccine is discovered are in some way helping fund that research. The firms get better access to credit with a better market valuation, it all works out.


----------



## Guy Bacos

Patrick9152 said:


> Finally, the Rolland-Garros Tennis tournament is postponed to the end of September



Interesting. September is also the month of the US Open, wonder how they'll manage that.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Patrick9152 said:


> Yes, but talking about an investment opportunity, or just having the idea of it bothers me a lot.
> But perhaps it is more pleasant to die from the virus knowing that we have made good financial transactions ...


Economics isn't my strong point. But it seems to me that investing at a time like this will actually help mitigate the the losses of the economic slowdown. If that's true, investing at a time like this would be helping out rather than hurting.


----------



## Dewdman42

Patrick9152 said:


> Yes, but talking about an investment opportunity, or just having the idea of it bothers me a lot.
> But perhaps it is more pleasant to die from the virus knowing that we have made good financial transactions ...



Have to make lemonade out of lemons whenever you can in life mate. 

everyone buying into the stock market low is helping someone that is desperate to sell.

a lot of bad shit is going to happen this year. I think 2020 will end up being the most horrific year of my lifetime. The good that will come out of it in the long run will be from this kind of thing and will lead to rebuilding and reinvestment.


----------



## MA-Simon

Well the golf courses arround Berlin have been closed already.

I am in Homeoffice, like everyone else. I hate, hate, hate Webcam Slack-Calls.
30 Minutes of Standup team meetings every morning. 15 people watching me in my home. I could never be a streamer.


----------



## Dewdman42

Put another way, if nobody bought stock when the price went low; the price would go even lower!!


----------



## Patrick.K

Guy Bacos said:


> Interesting. September is also the month of the US Open, wonder how they'll manage that.


It will not be easy, we must especially hope that the weather will be in the game, tennis is so nice with the sun!


----------



## Patrick.K

Tim_Wells said:


> Perhaps. But if I believed I was about to die, I wouldn't be worried about what people were saying on a virtual instrument discussion forum.
> 
> And by-the-way, why is it okay to make jokes about playing golf? That bothers me a lot. We should be sad and waiting to die.





Tim_Wells said:


> Perhaps. But if I believed I was about to die, I wouldn't be worried about what people were saying on a virtual instrument discussion forum.
> 
> And by-the-way, why is it okay to make jokes about playing golf? That bothers me a lot. We should be sad and waiting to die.


This is why it is good to make jokes, it feels good in these difficult times ... and I would add, why such a large space with so few players, for such a small ball, such small holes and .... so much water to keep the grass green ...


----------



## PerryD

My wife teaches music at two private schools here in Georgia. They are closed but she is going to many of their houses and some students are coming to our house for lessons. Pretty much defeats the purpose. Ha! I am caught up in an online order issue myself. I ordered a $1,000 used mic from GC in Erie PA on Friday (the 13th, no less). I called to check on shipping and all stores in PA are closed! I hope they fulfilled existing orders before closing. GC support can't check on the status because my order number is an "in store" order number. :/


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

MauroPantin said:


> Think of investments this way: The people investing right now in biotech betting they will make a profit if and once a vaccine is discovered are in some way helping fund that research. The firms get better access to credit with a better market valuation, it all works out.



That assumes they need more capital to develop vaccines, that the money won't go to CEOs' pockets and stock buybacks, and above all that you think it's perfectly fine for drug development to be financed by sick people (i.e. the people who pay for the drugs or whatever they develop).


----------



## Vonk

In the UK the government has acted, seemingly deliberately, to inflict the maxiumum damage on the hospitality, entertainment and leisure industries by _advising _the public to stay away for restaurants/concerts/clubs etc. but not closing them by decree. This means most will go bust as they cannot claim on business interruption insurance. It's a real kick in the teeth.


----------



## Tim_Wells

I'll add just one last thought on this. It did occur to me (_earlier_) that talking about taking advantage of a tanking stock market may have been a little insensitive or tone deaf. Especially to those here who have posted about loosing their jobs and losing work.

So if that was hurtful or bothersome to anyone, I sincerely apologize!! 

I use to make my sole income from playing live gigs. Often, I barely had enough money to get my car fixed. I went without health insurance for years. I can only imagine if something like COVID 19 came along back then. I would be scared to death.


----------



## Dewdman42

Nick Batzdorf said:


> That assumes they need more capital to develop vaccines, that the money won't go to CEOs' pockets and stock buybacks, and above all that you think it's perfectly fine for drug development to be financed by sick people (i.e. the people who pay for the drugs or whatever they develop).



for the most part if you buy stocks you will be simply trading with other investors, not giving money to the companies involved. In the long run yes your contribution to the markets effects the amount of capital in circulation which promotes growth but for the most part, especially in the near term, you’re just trading marbles with other investors.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Dewdman42 said:


> for the most part if you buy stocks you will be simply trading with other investors, not giving money to the companies involved. In the long run yes your contribution to the markets effects the amount of capital in circulation which promotes growth but for the most part, especially in the near term, you’re just trading marbles with other investors.



Also true.


----------



## MauroPantin

Nick Batzdorf said:


> That assumes they need more capital to develop vaccines, that the money won't go to CEOs' pockets and stock buybacks, and above all that you think it's perfectly fine for drug development to be financed by sick people (i.e. the people who pay for the drugs or whatever they develop).



Absolutely, I am not talking about what the US healthcare system looks like, which, to me and from afar at least, seems horrendous, unfair and profoundly immoral. Nobody should have their lives ruined because they got sick, it is a fortuitous situation. 

Now I hope nobody takes offense, my country is hardly an example of anything, but there is a baseline here for everyone in terms of medical attention and education. You can get medical assistance and education for free here. You may also choose the private sector if you feel it is insufficient, it doesn't really matter to the big picture. Sick people don't necessarily have to pay for the drugs that they need. We pay for the chemo drugs of sick people who have no other recourse or choose the public system. The same for people who are HIV positive. Hell, even IVF is covered by the public system. Their drugs and treatments are free on their end, paid by everyone's taxes. And I (and most people here) are perfectly happy to contribute to that end.


----------



## AEF

MauroPantin said:


> Absolutely, I am not talking about what the US healthcare system looks like, which, to me and from afar at least, seems horrendous, unfair and profoundly immoral. Nobody should have their lives ruined because they got sick, it is a fortuitous situation.
> 
> Now I hope nobody takes offense, my country is hardly an example of anything, but there is a baseline here for everyone in terms of medical attention and education. You can get medical assistance and education for free here. You may also choose the private sector if you feel it is insufficient, it doesn't really matter to the big picture. Sick people don't necessarily have to pay for the drugs that they need. We pay for the chemo drugs of sick people who have no other recourse or choose the public system. The same for people who are HIV positive. Hell, even IVF is covered by the public system. Their drugs and treatments are free on their end, paid by everyone's taxes. And I (and most people here) are perfectly happy to contribute to that end.



The US is too busy giving billionaires a tax cut and bailing out Boeing and its CEOs to have universal healthcare. Its disgraceful. Our system of government is deeply flawed due to the drastic imbalance between senators and the number of people they represent, and the electoral college. A republican has won the popular vote exactly one time since 1988, but the country has become more and more fascist every year. Its an unfixable mess. 

Be thankful those of you living in ACTUAL modern societies. The US is a third word country with a high concentration of billionaires and famous people at this point.


----------



## dzilizzi

MA-Simon said:


> Well the golf courses arround Berlin have been closed already.
> 
> I am in Homeoffice, like everyone else. I hate, hate, hate Webcam Slack-Calls.
> 30 Minutes of Standup team meetings every morning. 15 people watching me in my home. I could never be a streamer.


They took the video cameras off our computers after everyone started covering them and wouldn't turn them on during meetings. They decided it was a waste of money to buy computers with cameras. All the new ones are camera-less. I should note, a lot of us work at home.


----------



## MA-Simon

dzilizzi said:


> They took the video cameras off our computers after everyone started covering them and wouldn't turn them on during meetings. They decided it was a waste of money to buy computers with cameras. All the new ones are camera-less. I should note, a lot of us work at home.


Unfortunally... I think that is not an option ):. Everyone else has their cam activated. 
There would be questions. I don't want to be that weird guy.


----------



## Dewdman42

I telecommuted for over 5 years in a high tech job and nobody ever wanted to look at me on my cam. Make sure its extremely convenient to be on the phone a lot. This was before the day when everyone has iPhones and FaceTime, etc..but still the reality is you don't need to video conference to get work done. You do need to be able to conveniently sit at your desk using your computer while you talk to people and NOT on a speaker phone, so get a hands free device.


----------



## jononotbono




----------



## Thundercat

Patrick9152 said:


> I may be wrong, but far from me, the thoughts of making money in such a dramatic moment for humanity ...


Agreed....and yet...some of the greatest fortunes are made during tragedies. It doesn't necessarily mean the people are uncaring; it's possible to care very deeply about others and yet also have the foresight to capitalize on any events.

I understand what you are saying, however...


----------



## mikeh-375

Thanks Italy.....watch this, it's only 3'30" long

http://www.openculture.com/2020/03/...E0xkfUBGmnqFsjo1XIHILGf_bo9CK7m5UTNS_2igKJKnI


----------



## KallumS

Has anyone here had it or got it? I spent alot of time yesterday close to someone who has Covid19 symptoms today, so looks like I'm next...


----------



## patrick76

KallumS said:


> Has anyone here had it or got it? I spent alot of time yesterday close to someone who has Covid19 symptoms today, so looks like I'm next...


It's hard to know that in the U.S. because it is difficult to even get tested still unless you meet certain criteria. My brother-in-law has had flu symptoms, so he might have it, but who knows.

Hope if you do get it you have only the mild cold-like symptoms some are fortunate enough to deal with.


----------



## KallumS

patrick76 said:


> It's hard to know that in the U.S. because it is difficult to even get tested still unless you meet certain criteria. My brother-in-law has had flu symptoms, so he might have it, but who knows.
> 
> Hope if you do get it you have only the mild cold-like symptoms some are fortunate enough to deal with.



Same in the UK. The government is only testing people when they get into hospital and have advised people not to call 111 if they suspect they have Covid19 but only have mild symptoms.

My team started getting sick after my boss came back from Northern Italy 4 days before it got locked down. She became very ill and developed a lung infection but still came into work for 2 of the days. After that various members of the team started to develop a cough, thankfully they were off sick for a few days but now the person I was sat next to yesterday is ill.

I heard from one of my friends that has it, he said that it's no joke and his brother is in a critical condition because of it (he has underlying health issues). I feel like we're only beginning to see the effects of this illness on our friends, colleagues and loved ones.

Hopefully people can recover quickly or a cure is found.


----------



## patrick76

KallumS said:


> Same in the UK. The government is only testing people when they get into hospital and have advised people not to call 111 if they suspect they have Covid19 but only have mild symptoms.
> 
> My team started getting sick after my boss came back from Northern Italy 4 days before it got locked down. She became very ill and developed a lung infection but still came into work for 2 of the days. After that various members of the team started to develop a cough, thankfully they were off sick for a few days but now the person I was sat next to yesterday is ill.
> 
> I heard from one of my friends that has it, he said that it's no joke and his brother is in a critical condition because of it (he has underlying health issues). I feel like we're only beginning to see the effects of this illness on our friends, colleagues and loved ones.
> 
> Hopefully people can recover quickly or a cure is found.


It's a big failure on the part of our governments. Also, it is a societal or cultural failure when people come in to work while sick and are actually proud of it or because they have to for financial reasons.


----------



## mikeh-375

good luck @KallumS. stay strong.


----------



## KallumS

patrick76 said:


> It's a big failure on the part of our governments. Also, it is a societal or cultural failure when people come in to work while sick and are actually proud of it or because they have to for financial reasons.



Completely agree, my friend's family was infected because of someone that came back from northern Italy and didn't self isolate.


----------



## Zero&One

KallumS said:


> Has anyone here had it or got it? I spent alot of time yesterday close to someone who has Covid19 symptoms today, so looks like I'm next...



Like many of these virus, you can be near loads of ill people and catch nothing. Spend 2 mins with a sniffling sibling and get wrecked with flu.
I'd just crack on as normal, don't think about as that can trigger bodily reactions that may seem like it.

I have an autoimmune disease, and my mother is working as a nurse on a covid19 ward. Again, I try to just act normal, just take sensible measures.

Take care mate, hope you are ok.


----------



## angeruroth

This is the first time I'm waiting in a long line just to enter the supermarket. Now I know for sure the world is ending.

Besides that I think the internet is saving us from madness, so all is good here in my small corner of the world (ok, Madrid is not precisely a small town, but right now it feels like it).

Anyway, it will pass (this is not the first time the world ends, right?) so I wish you all health and luck.


----------



## KallumS

Zero&One said:


> I have an autoimmune disease, and my mother is working as a nurse on a covid19 ward. Again, I try to just act normal, just take sensible measures.



Massive respect to your mother for doing what she's doing. Hope you'll all be ok.


----------



## Uiroo

KallumS said:


> She became very ill and developed a lung infection but still came into work for 2 of the days. After that various members of the team started to develop a cough,


These people essentially have blood on their hands. There's no excuse for that.


----------



## KallumS

Uiroo said:


> These people essentially have blood on their hands. There's no excuse for that.



I should clarify that my boss only had a minor cough when she was in the office however my view is that she should have self isolated as soon as she came back from northern Italy - in her defence the official government advice at the time was to only self isolate if you were from Lombardy or Veneto, whereas she came from Venice. Still, I asked her why the hell she was in the office when she came in. 

We don't know if she actually had/has Covid19 as she asked for a test and was told that they were no longer sending testing kits out. Don't forget it's flu season in the UK and living in London there's always a bug going around.


----------



## MartinH.

So if they don't test, that essentially means all numbers about the spread are now pretty much useless, correct? 

Good luck to you and all affected!


----------



## KallumS

MartinH. said:


> So if they don't test, that essentially means all numbers about the spread are now pretty much useless, correct?



My understanding is that the numbers being released every day are the people that were either tested before they reduced testing (the results take a few days to be confirmed, apparently) or are people that were tested in hospital.

The chief scientific advisor to the prime minister said yesterday that 55,000 people could already be infected in the UK.


----------



## Heizenhaus

KallumS said:


> [...] in her defence the official government advice at the time was to only self isolate if you were from Lombardy or Veneto, whereas she came from Venice.


You, and your boss, should have checked what region Venice is in.


----------



## Iswhatitis

AEF said:


> The US is too busy giving billionaires a tax cut and bailing out Boeing and its CEOs to have universal healthcare. Its disgraceful. Our system of government is deeply flawed due to the drastic imbalance between senators and the number of people they represent, and the electoral college. A republican has won the popular vote exactly one time since 1988, but the country has become more and more fascist every year. Its an unfixable mess.
> 
> Be thankful those of you living in ACTUAL modern societies. The US is a third word country with a high concentration of billionaires and famous people at this point.


The rich have been screwing the poor over since the dawn of time. This won’t change.


----------



## youngpokie

5.7 earthquake in Utah. Hope @Dewdman42 and others from there are doing ok


----------



## MauroPantin

Here you don't get tested unless you have all the symptoms AND have traveled to a zone considered to be at-risk. So essentially, we test people who we are almost sure they have it, and nobody else. Politicians are happy saying the containment is working because there is no community circulation. Hardly possible to detect community circulation if you elect to test only the people that are coming from the northern hemisphere...


----------



## ism

Iswhatitis said:


> The rich have been screwing the poor over since the dawn of time. This won’t change.


This has been changing drastically for several thousand years. 

Check out the first chapter of Alain Badiou's "Logics of worlds". On some level this is a crazy formalist work of post-existentialist phenomenology.

But he starts with a very readable account of the Spartacus slave revolt. Which of course was famously crushed by the aspiring Julius Caesar. 

The philosophical significance being in that the notion of the poor fighting back was an idea that, for all the brutality with which the revolt was crushed, there was an idea that could never be put back in the bottles. True, it was a couple of millennia from the rupture in the ideals of human freedom that the Spartacus revolt loosed into the world to the Gettysburg address. But it was an idea that could never fully be quarantined or eradicated.


I was also just reading an account of the 1918 pandemic that killed 100 000 000 people. In the US (it was an article in the Atlantic) in city after city business strongly opposed "social distancing" measures. And they usually won. Not this time. (Although CEOs will get their bailouts too)

The arc of history , to quote another great American, is long. But the poor have actually been sticking it to the rich with agonizingly slow and relentlessly incremental - but increasing, though unevenly -success for some time now for at least a couple of thousand years.

My father, shortly after he immigrated to Canada in the 70s tells a story of visiting a hospital where a very sick, and probably not an especially wealthy child, was being airlifted by helicopter surrounded by a large team of experts. And he thought, well a society willing to mobilize those kinds of resources for anyone's child might not be that bad.

(End of pontification - sorry  . I was just quite moved by that article in the Atlantic)


----------



## Bluemount Score

MauroPantin said:


> Here you don't get tested unless you have all the symptoms AND have traveled to a zone considered to be at-risk. So essentially, we test people who we are almost sure they have it, and nobody else. Politicians are happy saying the containment is working because there is no community circulation. Hardly possible to detect community circulation if you elect to test only the people that are coming from the northern hemisphere...


Where is _here_?


----------



## MauroPantin

Whoops, sorry. Argentina!


----------



## dcoscina

I work music retail for my day job and store traffic has been spotty. Sunday I sold $8000 (CAD) but the week has been pretty quiet. Store hours have been reduced and shipments (especially from Yamaha) have been very slow to arrive. I suspect it’s only a matter of time before we are completely closed for a while.

the good news is that I have time to compose and work on my podcast show Composer Conversations. My next guest will be Conrad Pope and I’m really excited to chat with him about various aspects of the film score industry


----------



## STec

dcoscina said:


> I work music retail for my day job and store traffic has been spotty. Sunday I sold $8000 (CAD) but the week has been pretty quiet. Store hours have been reduced and shipments (especially from Yamaha) have been very slow to arrive. I suspect it’s only a matter of time before we are completely closed for a while.
> 
> the good news is that I have time to compose and work on my podcast show Composer Conversations. My next guest will be Conrad Pope and I’m really excited to chat with him about various aspects of the film score industry



Music stores are a good place to get viruses. People touches knobs, keys, etc.


----------



## MauroPantin

dcoscina said:


> the good news is that I have time to compose and work on my podcast show Composer Conversations. My next guest will be Conrad Pope and I’m really excited to chat with him about various aspects of the film score industry



Love Conrad's work. Make sure to let us know when it drops!


----------



## Gerbil

KallumS said:


> Has anyone here had it or got it? I spent alot of time yesterday close to someone who has Covid19 symptoms today, so looks like I'm next...


Myself and my clan have a virus that feels like a heavy cold. No idea if it's covid-19 because the UK are only testing the folk who go into hospital or whose surgeries can accomodate such tests afaik. But so far no biggie. Just working from home doing musical admin and a bit of studio work.


----------



## dzilizzi

STec said:


> Music stores are a good place to get viruses. People touches knobs, keys, etc.


Really hard not to. They are very tempting. And you have to test the feel of the keyboards...


----------



## dcoscina

STec said:


> Music stores are a good place to get viruses. People touches knobs, keys, etc.


Yeah for sure. We have Clorox wipes at all depts and wash our hands routinely. Luckily I’d booked time off this week since my wife is a teacher so I’ve been off since Sunday. I


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

KallumS said:


> My understanding is that the numbers being released every day are the people that were either tested before they reduced testing (the results take a few days to be confirmed, apparently) or are people that were tested in hospital.


I try to keep in mind that the number of infected is a flawed indicator, since it's probably missing some people and the numbers are liable to jump. I still pay attention, and it's still important, but I keep in mind a higher margin of error.

The more reliable number is the deaths. There's reason to think that those are more accurate and that virtually everyone who dies of COVID-19 is recorded.

By looking at the trend of deaths, we have a more accurate picture of what was actually happening ~17 days ago (the average time it takes between catching the sickness and eventual death).


----------



## Billy Palmer

I'd appreciate some post-covid career advice! 

I started freelancing this year fresh out of undergrad. Most of my income was first through assisting at an hourly rate. I did score-prep on contract a few months back which payed better and seemed like a niche I could continue to target. 
Recording sessions are obviously now not so hot. 

So I guess my naive question is, anything I should now be trying instead? What are some other remote assisting niches that I could try?


----------



## dcoscina

MauroPantin said:


> Love Conrad's work. Make sure to let us know when it drops!


This was my pilot show featuring a nice chat with Chris Willis (The Death of Stalin, The Personal History of David Copperfield).









COMPOSER CONVERSATIONS WITH DAVID COSCINA – EPISODE 1: CHRISTOPHER WILLIS


Welcome to the premiere episode of COMPOSER CONVERSATIONS WITH DAVID COSCINA on CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO. Note from David Coscina: The idea of this show was born out of discussions with Erik Woods and some film composer friends of mine revolving…




www.cinematicsound.net





I'd love to get Hans on the show. It's less an interview and more of a chat between musicians (admittedly it's fairly one-sided as far as industry experience and body of work ).


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

dcoscina said:


> This was my pilot show featuring a nice chat with Chris Willis (The Death of Stalin, The Personal History of David Copperfield).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COMPOSER CONVERSATIONS WITH DAVID COSCINA – EPISODE 1: CHRISTOPHER WILLIS
> 
> 
> Welcome to the premiere episode of COMPOSER CONVERSATIONS WITH DAVID COSCINA on CINEMATIC SOUND RADIO. Note from David Coscina: The idea of this show was born out of discussions with Erik Woods and some film composer friends of mine revolving…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cinematicsound.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd love to get Hans on the show. It's less an interview and more of a chat between musicians (admittedly it's fairly one-sided as far as industry experience and body of work ).


Death of Stalin is one of my favorite scores from the last couple years.


----------



## Stringtree

dcoscina said:


> I work music retail for my day job and store traffic has been spotty. Sunday I sold $8000 (CAD) but the week has been pretty quiet. Store hours have been reduced and shipments (especially from Yamaha) have been very slow to arrive. I suspect it’s only a matter of time before we are completely closed for a while.
> 
> the good news is that I have time to compose and work on my podcast show Composer Conversations. My next guest will be Conrad Pope and I’m really excited to chat with him about various aspects of the film score industry



Wow. I checked out a GC about a year ago, and it had a row of carpeted burial crypts along one wall for lessons. I hung out in music stores my whole life, dorking around with the products. I couldn't imagine going around touching things now. Ewwww. 

It's cool you sold that much! I had no idea things were still sorta rocking. Cool podcast!

Greg


----------



## Stringtree

I work for an organization that has been thinking about offering streaming of presentations for years. Now it's deadly serious and there's no other way to keep the audience because the doors are closed to the public.

Money is no object, but legitimate vendors are closed and swamped with calls from others with similar needs. No supply chain, no warehouse, no way to do this for an unknown period of time. 

Time to improvise.


----------



## Guy Bacos

Patrick9152 said:


> Finally, the Rolland-Garros Tennis tournament is postponed to the end of September



US Open ends September 13th. One week to adjust to the surface. Probably no fatigue from players.


----------



## dcoscina

Stringtree said:


> Wow. I checked out a GC about a year ago, and it had a row of carpeted burial crypts along one wall for lessons. I hung out in music stores my whole life, dorking around with the products. I couldn't imagine going around touching things now. Ewwww.
> 
> It's cool you sold that much! I had no idea things were still sorta rocking. Cool podcast!
> 
> Greg


What boggles my mind was people coming in last weekend with their kids wearing masks but touching every keyboard surface (and not there with the intent to buy anything). I mean we are living in times where Darwinism has been re-activated. IF you are that stupid, you will stand a good chance of getting sick. The problem is that these folks will take down quite a few others in the process....


----------



## Maxtrixbass

MauroPantin said:


> Absolutely, I am not talking about what the US healthcare system looks like, which, to me and from afar at least, seems horrendous, unfair and profoundly immoral. Nobody should have their lives ruined because they got sick, it is a fortuitous situation.
> 
> Now I hope nobody takes offense, my country is hardly an example of anything, but there is a baseline here for everyone in terms of medical attention and education. You can get medical assistance and education for free here. You may also choose the private sector if you feel it is insufficient, it doesn't really matter to the big picture. Sick people don't necessarily have to pay for the drugs that they need. We pay for the chemo drugs of sick people who have no other recourse or choose the public system. The same for people who are HIV positive. Hell, even IVF is covered by the public system. Their drugs and treatments are free on their end, paid by everyone's taxes. And I (and most people here) are perfectly happy to contribute to that end.



I think so many of us here in the US have adapted so profoundly to the degrading situation that your comment created an eye opening contrast. I must admit my biggest fear of injury/disease is going bankrupt. When I was a kid the doctor would come to the house. Now I have personally known people who stopped their cancer treatments so their families would have some assets after they died (yes, both died).

Contrast this with the $213+ billion owned by just two people who live within an hour of me. Its not a lack of resources. Geeze, everyone is covered in Mexico. There is no point in having a "great healthcare system" is access is limited..I guess unless you are one of the ones who has access or profit from the mess.

Yes, horrendous, unfair, and profoundly immoral...and that's during the best of times.


----------



## Stringtree

Take down a few? Watching any spring break 2020 video just crushes my heart. "Hey Boomer" is now an actionable philosophy that will take some of our most treasured friends because of carelessness and disregard.


----------



## kitekrazy

Lost 2 weeks of potential income. The good is not buying anymore DAW stuff especially on credit.


----------



## youngpokie

Stringtree said:


> "Hey Boomer" is now an actionable philosophy that will take some of our most treasured friends because of carelessness and disregard.



They even call it "boomer remover"


----------



## Iswhatitis

ism said:


> This has been changing drastically for several thousand years.
> 
> Check out the first chapter of Alain Badiou's "Logics of worlds". On some level this is a crazy formalist work of post-existentialist phenomenology.
> 
> But he starts with a very readable account of the Spartacus slave revolt. Which of course was famously crushed by the aspiring Julius Caesar.
> 
> The philosophical significance being in that the notion of the poor fighting back was an idea that, for all the brutality with which the revolt was crushed, there was an idea that could never be put back in the bottles. True, it was a couple of millennia from the rupture in the ideals of human freedom that the Spartacus revolt loosed into the world to the Gettysburg address. But it was an idea that could never fully be quarantined or eradicated.
> 
> 
> I was also just reading an account of the 1918 pandemic that killed 100 000 000 people. In the US (it was an article in the Atlantic) in city after city business strongly opposed "social distancing" measures. And they usually won. Not this time. (Although CEOs will get their bailouts too)
> 
> The arc of history , to quote another great American, is long. But the poor have actually been sticking it to the rich with agonizingly slow and relentlessly incremental - but increasing, though unevenly -success for some time now for at least a couple of thousand years.
> 
> My father, shortly after he immigrated to Canada in the 70s tells a story of visiting a hospital where a very sick, and probably not an especially wealthy child, was being airlifted by helicopter surrounded by a large team of experts. And he thought, well a society willing to mobilize those kinds of resources for anyone's child might not be that bad.
> 
> (End of pontification - sorry  . I was just quite moved by that article in the Atlantic)


In the 1950s average CEO pay was 40x more than the average workers, now it’s over 300x.

Whatever crumbs the poor r getting over time is nothing compared to the super rich, so you are delusional. 90% plus of the world population does not have a penny in its pocket, running water, a toilet, a roof over its head let alone 4 walls. You are out of your mind if you think the poor population of the world which is the vast majority of the world’s population is doing well.


----------



## JohnG

That's simply untrue. The number and percentage of people who are extremely poor has been declining for decades. It's not perfect and there's no guarantee that COVID-19 isn't going to tip things in some awful direction, but hundreds of millions are better off.





__





Now for the good news


Poverty has fallen in all regions of the world




www.economist.com













Great strides have been made against disease and poverty


A report from the Gates Foundation spells out the biggest risks to future progress




www.economist.com


----------



## MauroPantin

Maxtrixbass said:


> I think so many of us here in the US have adapted so profoundly to the degrading situation that your comment created an eye opening contrast. I must admit my biggest fear of injury/disease is going bankrupt. When I was a kid the doctor would come to the house. Now I have personally known people who stopped their cancer treatments so their families would have some assets after they died (yes, both died).
> 
> Contrast this with the $213+ billion owned by just two people who live within an hour of me. Its not a lack of resources. Geeze, everyone is covered in Mexico. There is no point in having a "great healthcare system" is access is limited..I guess unless you are one of the ones who has access or profit from the mess.
> 
> Yes, horrendous, unfair, and profoundly immoral...and that's during the best of times.



That's heartbreaking, but I'm not surprised. I know some people who live in the US and are in good standing with social security and all that good stuff but still keep a valid Argentinian passport to be able to get back in case they get sick with something serious.

If it's any comfort, based on my experience working and interacting with people from the US, I see no cultural difference in terms of being willing to help your community and your neighbor between you guys and say Europe or Australia. There are some differences, but they are not THAT big. It boggles my mind a bit that the system you live in is so starkly different. I see no "lack of humanity", for lack of a better term. It is quite the opposite, in fact, Americans seem always so welcoming and kind... So it is strange for us abroad to see systems in place that reflects none of that. 

I imagine it has to do with political bullshit rather than an accurate representation of what most people want. I'm sure you want to be surrounded by healthy and educated people, just like anybody else, and are probably willing to contribute a bit to that end if it helps you and everybody else in need. If my assumptions are correct and most people want that then I guess it's a matter of time before it happens.


----------



## ism

Iswhatitis said:


> In the 1950s average CEO pay was 40x more than the average workers, now it’s over 300x.
> 
> Whatever crumbs the poor r getting over time is nothing compared to the super rich, so you are delusional. 90% plus of the world population does not have a penny in its pocket, running water, a toilet, a roof over its head let alone 4 walls. You are out of your mind if you think the poor population of the world which is the vast majority of the world’s population is doing well.



You're, broadly speaking, of course right. 

But there's a critical other story to be told alongside this. 

In 1800 in London it was perfectly acceptable for very young children to be used as chimney sweeps, practically enslaved, often dying by the time they were 12 from the soot. In 2020, there are 0 children in such employ in London. 

And also the significant declining in child mortality, HIV, illiteracy, and the number of people living extreme poverty in recent decades, in part because of fierce campaigning. The 90% number is way off, but the real number it's still horrifying. (From the UN: "In 1990, nearly 50 percent of the population in developing nations lived on less than $1.25 a day. As of 2015, that proportion has dropped to 14 percent." https://www.mdgmonitor.org/mdg-1-eradicate-poverty-hunger/). Campaigns on debt, trade injustice, the Millennium Development Goals and a thousand other things besides have measurable, hard won impacts. 

For ever statistic like the 300x CEO pay (which is egregious) there's a dozen victories of trade unions, campaigners, feminists, social movements. 8 day work week. Public health care. And more battles to be fought, to be sure. These victories are things that were just granted to people, out of the kindness of the wealthy's hearts, it was fought for. 


Anyway, not to deny the rampant injustice,, always finding new ways to manifest. But my point was only meant to be that that the struggle against injustice is a very long one.


Sorry to hijack the thread.


----------



## Maxtrixbass

youngpokie said:


> They even call it "boomer remover"


Sad. I heard the ugliest slang for AIDs as well. A rather lack of compassion for the 32 million people who have died of the disease.

The Spanish Flu pandemic targeted younger people..The next round could be anybody. 

Is there ever a point where it can just be us?? For 5 lousy minutes...I don't care where you are from or who you voted for or what you believe or how old you are. I'm really getting tired of the "us and them".


----------



## Maxtrixbass

MauroPantin said:


> I imagine it has to do with political bullshit rather than an accurate representation of what most people want.



I think its about money. It all about money. I listen to the news and its actually daily reported how much money new movie releases are making. Batman came in first at 66 million... Who cares?

There is a weird, but common, attitude I see from people with money and that is "I did it, why can't you?. Some people do make bad choices and others have worked hard and done well, but there are many people who made bad choices who have done well and good that die impoverished. 

I should say that I live well. I'm not Bill Gates, but according to the Forbes chart I'm in the top 2%...and despite good insurance I still worry about going bankrupt if I get sick. My god, think about people who live paycheck to paycheck or worse , which is just about everybody. 

I'm told senators in this country spend about 3-4 hours a day on the phone raising money for their campaigns..even in off years. Sick. They aren't calling me. Any of you talked to a senator lately? Who's interest do you think they will follow?

Money. The entire US culture is fixated on money..


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Since China has controlled their spread, they might actually be in a position where they've freed up some respirators/ventilators.

And they might be able to share those with the US, along with valuable information they've learned.

That is...if we don't start insulting them.


----------



## dzilizzi

Iswhatitis said:


> In the 1950s average CEO pay was 40x more than the average workers, now it’s over 300x.
> 
> Whatever crumbs the poor r getting over time is nothing compared to the super rich, so you are delusional. 90% plus of the world population does not have a penny in its pocket, running water, a toilet, a roof over its head let alone 4 walls. You are out of your mind if you think the poor population of the world which is the vast majority of the world’s population is doing well.


The problem I have is that, depending on where you live in the U.S. $50,000 per year can be very comfortably middle class or it can be barely getting by. So I always have issues when "taxing the rich" comes up. Because sometimes rich is relative but the government's idea of rich is based on living in a small town in the midwest.


----------



## Iswhatitis

dzilizzi said:


> The problem I have is that, depending on where you live in the U.S. $50,000 per year can be very comfortably middle class or it can be barely getting by. So I always have issues when "taxing the rich" comes up. Because sometimes rich is relative but the government's idea of rich is based on living in a small town in the midwest.


I say install a 3% Federal Property Tax on all asset classes if one is worth $50 million or more, no exceptions no deductibles no depreciation no loopholes no reductions no deductions and one cannot write off your debts and liabilities. This would not be a net wealth tax but a tax on all your assets if you are super wealthy.


----------



## Michael Antrum

It's not a very fashionable viewpoint, but I think this kind of event has been on the cards for some time. As a species we have been too successful, and the world is overpopulated. 

Mother nature can be, and often is, quite brutal, and from time to time events like this are only to be expected.

As an example, I remember, back in 1985, the Ethiopian drought and famine, and the news reports of the awful scenes of starvation remain with me to this day. The music industry responded with the Live Aid concert and other activities to get aid to those people as soon as possible.

Well at the time of those awful events, the population of Ethiopia was 40 million people, and the country did not have the resources to cope.

Today the population of Ethiopia is 115 million, and that kind of population growth is mirrored in many other countries. By 2050 that population of Ethiopia is estimated to be in excess of 200 million.

Then you look at the way the world is right now, and look at the way things are going.....

It's very worrying.


----------



## youngpokie

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Since China has controlled their spread, they might actually be in a position where they've freed up some respirators/ventilators.
> 
> And they might be able to share those with the US, along with valuable information they've learned.
> 
> That is...if we don't start insulting them.



"Thank you for your help. And sorry about the insults."


----------



## Maxtrixbass

dzilizzi said:


> The problem I have is that, depending on where you live in the U.S. $50,000 per year can be very comfortably middle class or it can be barely getting by. So I always have issues when "taxing the rich" comes up. Because sometimes rich is relative but the government's idea of rich is based on living in a small town in the midwest.



How about a baseline of $500,000? I live in one of the most expensive areas cost of living wise and would say $499,000 a year income is beyond plenty.

There are hundreds of people in western Washington state alone that make that, maybe thousands. 

Roosevelt proposed a maximum income of $25,000. My how things have changed. Jeff Bezos makes $150,000 a MINUTE.


----------



## Maxtrixbass

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Since China has controlled their spread, they might actually be in a position where they've freed up some respirators/ventilators.
> 
> And they might be able to share those with the US, along with valuable information they've learned.
> 
> That is...if we don't start insulting them.



In a sad way, its a great opportunity. How many times have you heard "win the hearts and minds"?

Imagine if, just for a short window, the US could say to Iran, China, Russia, North Korea and who ever else we are having a spat with "we have a bigger, common enemy right now". Allow medical supplies and information to flow. Try to actually cooperate if only in this one area for this one moment. Some governmental leaders would still be asses, but I'm not convinced the average person would be.

I knew a guy who hated the Mormons banging on his door until he got flooded in Katrina and the Mormons were the first, and arguably the best, to help. No he didn't become Mormon, but now he invites them into his house.


----------



## Zero&One

A lovely gesture from Fluffy









My Piano for Lombardy


Visit the post for more.




www.fluffyaudio.com


----------



## Dewdman42

youngpokie said:


> 5.7 earthquake in Utah. Hope @Dewdman42 and others from there are doing ok



apparently I slept through it. I am originally from the sf Bay Area and this was just a friendly shake as far as I’m concerned. im still catching up on the news today


----------



## dzilizzi

youngpokie said:


> "Thank you for your help. And sorry about the insults."


My husband heard they were blaming the spread on one of the men who was tasked with destroying the test subjects (animals) and couldn't see wasting "good" meat. Took it home to his family to eat. 

Don't know how true it is. But it made sense with the shutdown of the wild animal food markets.


----------



## youngpokie

dzilizzi said:


> My husband heard they were blaming the spread on one of the men who was tasked with destroying the test subjects (animals) and couldn't see wasting "good" meat. Took it home to his family to eat.
> 
> Don't know how true it is. But it made sense with the shutdown of the wild animal food markets.



I have no idea, honestly, if it's even possible to know how it actually jumped from animals to people. But the previous pandemic also started from the wildlife markets. After that, the government there reopened them and regulated with licensing. As far as I can tell, the permanent ban didn't happen until Feb 25...


----------



## dzilizzi

youngpokie said:


> I have no idea, honestly, if it's even possible to know how it actually jumped from animals to people. But the previous pandemic also started from the wildlife markets. After that, the government there reopened them and regulated with licensing. As far as I can tell, the permanent ban didn't happen until Feb 25...


It would make sense if the test subject animals had a version that would jump. Could be they were just testing to see if the wild animal markets, where some of the animals tested positive for the animal version of the virus, were dangerous to humans. Could be they created it for other reasons. I don't really want to assume that. 

The virus has been around for a while and scientist have been concerned about it from what I've read. But since it wasn't really a problem then, it was hard to get funding for to test it.


----------



## merlinhimself

What's a reputable source to get COVID info from? Im so sick of seeing headlines from FOX, CNN, BBC causing such a stir and panic. They always have these flashy doomsday headlines because that generates them money, but I think its escalating the situation and going to make things worse.


----------



## JEPA

merlinhimself said:


> What's a reputable source to get COVID info from? Im so sick of seeing headlines from FOX, CNN, BBC causing such a stir and panic. They always have these flashy doomsday headlines because that generates them money, but I think its escalating the situation and going to make things worse.


www.rki.de


----------



## cuttime

Try Dr. Tara C. Smith, @aetiology on Twitter. I've been following her on Twitter since the last couple of Ebola outbreaks. She is very well informed, and takes the time to answer thoughtful questions. Not crackpots or abusive questions.






Dr. Tara C. Smith (@aetiology) | Twitter


The latest Tweets from Dr. Tara C. Smith (@aetiology). Professor, infectious disease epidemiologist, writer, K & teen wrangler. Antibiotic resistance, zoonotic disease, scicomm, zombies. She/her. No one's sweetie. Kent, Ohio




twitter.com


----------



## KallumS

Heizenhaus said:


> You, and your boss, should have checked what region Venice is in.



Haha whoops, in any case my boss said she checked and Venice wasn't one of the towns affected (at the time).



Gerbil said:


> Myself and my clan have a virus that feels like a heavy cold. No idea if it's covid-19 because the UK are only testing the folk who go into hospital or whose surgeries can accomodate such tests afaik. But so far no biggie. Just working from home doing musical admin and a bit of studio work.



It could just be a cold  but in any case stay safe.


----------



## gsilbers

Doesn’t France shut down every year for a month in august? Sure some stuff remain open but most business stop. And South America it’s pretty much dec15-jan1.

Trump should of just said forced staycation for a month. Close schools and travel. And like France and other countries in summer, just one month of vacation will slow things down economically but in this case slow the virus so we get exposed to it slowly and reduce the curve. Cases will still keep rising but at least is not over saturating health care.

Throwing huge stimulus, fed panicking, news on alarm all the time is just Creates panic buying and stock wild swings. 

Might be that the USA is just not used to NOT working. I grew up in South America and schools would be out for 2 weeks just for Holy Week/carnival... (or something).
So instead of this being an opportunity to declare it a vacation with restrictions it went into let’s save the economy we are all doom.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

KallumS said:


> Has anyone here had it or got it? I spent alot of time yesterday close to someone who has Covid19 symptoms today, so looks like I'm next...



Be sure to stay in!

(And of course I hope you don't get ill.)


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

JohnG said:


> That's simply untrue. The number and percentage of people who are extremely poor has been declining for decades. It's not perfect and there's no guarantee that COVID-19 isn't going to tip things in some awful direction, but hundreds of millions are better off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now for the good news
> 
> 
> Poverty has fallen in all regions of the world
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.economist.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great strides have been made against disease and poverty
> 
> 
> A report from the Gates Foundation spells out the biggest risks to future progress
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.economist.com



300 million Chinese people live like we do in the Western world, which is quite a change from 1970 when they had literally descended into cannibalism.

And yet I doubt you disagree that unsustainable income inequality is the second biggest issue of our time (after climate change, which overlaps).

Also worth pointing out that a large percentage of the world is hungry, like well over 2 billion people. The planet doesn't have the resources to support 7+ billion in first world living standards - even though we waste half the food we produce in the US.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

merlinhimself said:


> What's a reputable source to get COVID info from? Im so sick of seeing headlines from FOX, CNN, BBC causing such a stir and panic. They always have these flashy doomsday headlines because that generates them money, but I think its escalating the situation and going to make things worse.



I don't know what country you're in, but in the US: https://www.cdc.gov

There's also local information.


----------



## Dewdman42

USA is not going to fare well through this. Mainly because Americans do not like to be told what to do. They are allergic to martial law. They might start a civil war over it! The Spanish Flu also wiped out huge swathes of the population in some cities due to the same hubris. San Francisco instituted early social distancing and was saved, but then there was a comeback of the virus after everyone thought the coast was clear and SF got caught off guard anyway.

Our government made the choice to trust americans themselves to do that right and smart thing (which was hopeful thinking, but they also probably realized that trying to force it would have been equally catastrophic in other ways).

In some cases, specific states and municipalities have enforced earlier lockdowns because they had more foresight perhaps, or perhaps that is the way america is supposed to work...the local states and municipal governments are supposed to address things like this rather then some grand national government crackdown over 330 million people, which isn't really even doable frankly.

So probably our government is doing the best it could do, but still, the simple reality is that americans have not been taking this nearly seriously enough until now and they won't take it seriously enough until our hospitals are already overwhelmed and its too late. I think its probably already too late frankly.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Dewdman42 said:


> marshall law



That's what Marco Rubio called it the first time, before he corrected it to marital law.


----------



## Dewdman42

marital?

martial?

anyway, you're the editor, you decide...


----------



## dcoscina

Well the music store I work at just announced they were closing until further notice. Damn. Guess if better be applying for EI asap...


----------



## Loïc D

Aaaaah, French pay-per-view TV has gone free.
Oh sh*t, no sports to watch :(


----------



## Henu

Dewdman42 said:


> USA is not going to fare well through this. Mainly because Americans do not like to be told what to do. They are allergic to martial law.



Also referred as "natural selection".


----------



## youngpokie

Dewdman42 said:


> USA is not going to fare well through this.



I keep going from thinking the same to hoping it would work out. Read the other day that China economy started to rebound already in manufacturing and services. 

I also think the amount of bureaucracy and red tape that's being cut in the last two weeks is impressive and I hope it will stay cut after this is over. 

I had no idea that in the US a medical license from one state is not recognized in others. And that the FDA approval process didn't allow the WHO test to be used in the US. Or that the CDC set a monopoly for itself to produce, distribute and administer the test. And then it told everyone else their tests can't be used without the emergency authorization from the FDA.


----------



## Dewdman42

youngpokie said:


> I keep going from thinking the same to hoping it would work out. Read the other day that China economy started to rebound already in manufacturing and services.



For one thing, USA is not handling this with the same kind of draconian response that China did. We have reacted with hubris that everything will be ok because we are america after all. Italy and UK are much better examples of what is in store for us in the next 2-3 weeks. Except probably worse because we are so big and spread out.

For a second thing, I do not trust a single word coming out of China. For all we know they could have entire cities or provinces with people dying by the thousands and we wouldn't even know it until a year from now. Taiwan, Singapore and South Korea also took very serious precautions at the first outbreak of this and they did manage to smooth out the spike substantially, so its quite possible that China did also...but I can't stress enough.. they did so under very strict martial law scenarios...something the USA will never do unless/until its entirely too late.

For a third thing, this is not over yet, even for China. Its entirely possible that the virus has leaked out to other cities and provinces and they have yet to find out about it after the fact, same as us, meanwhile they claim they are coming back on line as fast as possible to save their economy, which ultimately could be spreading the virus, just as we are here.


----------



## Dewdman42

sorry if my words are scary by the way, but the best thing is for us to face up to the reality and take the necessary measures. I feel that 99% of the people around me in my community are in complete denial.


----------



## youngpokie

dcoscina said:


> Well the music store I work at just announced they were closing until further notice. Damn. Guess if better be applying for EI asap...



I am so sorry to hear that. We're in the same boat, my partner isn't working for the rest of the week and will find out Monday if everyone's laid off.


----------



## Polkasound

Dewdman42 said:


> the best thing is for us to face up to the reality and take the necessary measures. I feel that 99% of the people around me in my community are in complete denial.



There's a lot of denial here, too. Some people deal with serious issues by suppressing them with willful ignorance. Instead of taking in information and making informed decisions, their immediate reaction is to deny the problem and make no changes to their lifestyle. Unfortunately, these are the people who are going to be hogging all the available respirators. 

On another note, I am officially laid off. All of my gigs have been canceled/postponed until future notice. For the time being, I'll be living entirely off savings. Scary times.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Dewdman42 said:


> I do not trust a single word coming out of China. For all we know they could have entire cities or provinces with people dying by the thousands and we wouldn't even know it until a year from now.



They just expelled a bunch of American reporters, which definitely lends credence to that view.


----------



## JohnG

Nick Batzdorf said:


> They just expelled a bunch of American reporters, which definitely lends credence to that view.



it was retaliation for something Trump ordered, I thought; that doesn't mean Chinese media is trustworthy.


----------



## JohnG

dcoscina said:


> Well the music store I work at just announced they were closing until further notice. Damn. Guess if better be applying for EI asap...



Sorry David

I'm going to listen to your podcasts.

Kind regards,

John


----------



## Dewdman42

china has been trying to float out propoganda that the virus originated in the USA. Trump simply said it came from China. Its just an excuse for China to kick out our press so they can continue to say whatever they want to their people and the world.


----------



## Dewdman42

actually the justification given by China is that Trump limited the number of chinese citizens that can be here working for chinese news organizations.


----------



## gsilbers

Dewdman42 said:


> china has been trying to float out propoganda that the virus originated in the USA. Trump simply said it came from China. Its just an excuse for China to kick out our press so they can continue to say whatever they want to their people and the world.




a few things, saying Chinese virus or it came from china in the way being said its not different than saying 
the virus came from china and its affecting the descendants white europeans who enslaved Africans for their own economic gain and later placed the African American population in disadvantage via segregation. 
I mean... its accurate but just mentioning it a certain way does evoke a sense of foreigners are bad. or that asians might or could be targeted. this seems to be a huge blind spot on the right wing America. 

with that said... 

I hope every country enacts some measures against china. mainly because 300 million people live the same way we do but they still have millions living under rural ways.. like... eating fukin bats?!? 
and we can see some images of how life is in certain places there. you have that mix of futuristic middle class and also bat soup. 
so nations imo should hold china accountable and start demanding changes. opening their borders and markets up for other products made outside china, better IP protection, not having to partner up with local biz and health conditions and regulations like we do in the western world. even Japan. 

and we should hold also corporations more accountable for those sending work to china. this is of course a 20 year old issue.. but imo, this is a perfect time to re establish and pressure china... after the vaccines come in of course.


----------



## Dewdman42

don't make this a silly racist discussion. Saying its from China is not saying what you are saying. its simply identifying the source. It has been well documented that the china gov tried to cover this up for a long time and many thousands of people would not have died if their government had handled it properly. They bear a huge responsibility...the chinese government...for what is happening now. Part of me wonders if that was intentional in fact, but who knows..


----------



## Kony

Dewdman42 said:


> china has been trying to float out propoganda that the virus originated in the USA. Trump simply said it came from China. Its just an excuse for China to kick out our press so they can continue to say whatever they want to their people and the world.


They're only kicking out US press in a tit-for-tat argument - the rest of the world's press will still be in China so it's not an attempt to control foreign media. Also, every government wants to say whatever they want to their people, why single China out? Look at the BS coming from the leaders of US, UK, Holland and Australia regarding herd immunity while trying to downplay/ignore the amount of avoidable deaths which will be caused by letting the virus spread.


----------



## Kony

gsilbers said:


> eating fukin bats?!?


They've been doing stuff like this for centuries without a problem - so why do you think it's a problem now and what evidence do you have that this was the original vector of transmission?


----------



## youngpokie

Timeline: The early days of China's coronavirus outbreak and cover-up

This is an authoritarian Communist government. How can you make sure this doesn't happen again (for real, not just words) if you don't start by recognizing what actually happened?


----------



## Dewdman42

The chinese government is a well known communist dictatorship and propaganda artist. That's why. If there are cities or provinces in china under martial law, no press will be hearing about it or writing about it or anywhere near it.

If you want to believe what the chinese government is saying, I'm happy for you, but I do not believe them for one second. The whole reason we're in this mess is because they were covering it up to begin with in Wuhan!


----------



## Dewdman42

Regarding the exact origin of the virus, we do not know for sure. China has not been able, or has chosen not to provide information about the first known case. There are some theories floating around, but I do not believe that this has been identified for sure, nor do I think it will ever be, Chinese government is working on a story to cover their ass now because they allowed this to get out of the control and the whole world is going to hate their guts in 6 months from now.

They do think it originated in bats, but it was not transmitted to humans by eating the bats. It would have moved from bats to some other animal that is closer to humans then finally came to humans in some way through the respiratory system.

But China has, for years, had poor conditions for how meat markets are organized...they constantly break many food and safety rules about having certain animals in close cages in the ways that are supposed to be taboo by the the modern civilized world. Certain cages animals are not supposed to be near others and this is why. that is how we know certain viruses start in bats or something, get transmitted to some other animal, mutates a bit, then transmits to humans in some way...etc. So.. how this particular strain actually started..who knows, but it probably has nothing to do with eating bats. It might have something to do with storing live bats next to other animals in a way that our FDA would prohibit. Or other animal combinations. But the real Fuck up here is that the chinese gov new for quite a while this thing was happening and they made some serious mistakes and tried to cover it up...and ultimately this has led us to th a global recession and death of many.


----------



## Kony

If you honestly think other governments would have acted differently, good luck with that. I do believe the numbers in China now as confirmed by Dr Richard Hatchett, CEO of the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations in Switzerland who has spent significant time in China - hindsight is always great btw.


----------



## Uiroo

gsilbers said:


> a few things, saying Chinese virus or it came from china in the way being said its not different than saying
> the virus came from china and its affecting the descendants white europeans who enslaved Africans for their own economic gain and later placed the African American population in disadvantage via segregation.
> I mean... its accurate but just mentioning it a certain way does evoke a sense of foreigners are bad. or that asians might or could be targeted. this seems to be a huge blind spot on the right wing America.


No, it's MOST LIKELY from china, and "chinese virus" sounds to me like "virus from china". 
I don't see anything wrong with that. If it originated from germany and people would call it "german virus" that wouldn't bother me, especially if part of the reason would have been problematic conditions on german markets.

The chinese government seems tu have f****d up big time, and I feel really sorry for the chinese population that has to suffer the consequences. I fear they'll get a second infection-spike, let's hope that won't be the case.


----------



## gsilbers

Dewdman42 said:


> don't make this a silly racist discussion. Saying its from China is not saying what you are saying. its simply identifying the source. It has been well documented that the china gov tried to cover this up for a long time and many thousands of people would not have died if their government had handled it properly. They bear a huge responsibility...the chinese government...for what is happening now. Part of me wonders if that was intentional in fact, but who knows..











Trump’s new fixation on using a racist name for the coronavirus is dangerous


The president is stoking xenophobia with his rhetoric about the coronavirus.




www.vox.com


----------



## Kony

youngpokie said:


> Timeline: The early days of China's coronavirus outbreak and cover-up
> 
> This is an authoritarian Communist government. How can you make sure this doesn't happen again (for real, not just words) if you don't start by recognizing what actually happened?


Okay, this is turning into a pro vs anti China debate so I'm out but will say this: the point you made about China taking 3 weeks - how long is it taking other countries around the world to act? What is being done in the US to stop/slow the outbreak?


----------



## youngpokie

gsilbers said:


> Trump’s new fixation on using a racist name for the coronavirus is dangerous
> 
> 
> The president is stoking xenophobia with his rhetoric about the coronavirus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vox.com



Here's another from the same source







China hid the severity of its coronavirus outbreak and muzzled whistleblowers — because it can


----------



## Kony

*How's your life affected by Covid-19?*


----------



## Dewdman42

exactly. my impression is that Trump has been very forgiving towards China and has stated numerous times, I've watched him say things like "its nobody's fault", and "China is working with us", etc... However...as we understand it today, it did originate from there, or certainly was spread into a problem from there. That is a fact and there will need to be reckoning eventually.

I also hope that China is not spreading it around more then they are telling us, but we will not know for sure any time soon.


----------



## youngpokie

Kony said:


> Okay, this is turning into a pro vs anti China debate so I'm out but will say this: the point you made about China taking 3 weeks - how long is it taking other countries around the world to act? What is being done in the US to stop/slow the outbreak?



This is not about pro or anti-China. It's about the government of China taking accountability. Trump is the head of US government and is being criticized for his missteps. I don't see why Mr. Xi should be treated differently. Do you?


----------



## Vik

Have any of you seen a list showing the number of people who haven been tested in each country? Judging by how many (shown as % of the population) who has died in each country/, San Marino comes out worst - they have a population of 34000 people only and it's therefore relatively easy to test a large percentage of the population. After San Marino comes Italy, Spain, Iran, France, Switzerland, Netherlands, China and South Korea and UK – in that order. But all graphs I've seen are somehow misleading, because they don't take into account that some countries have tested a larger percentage of the population than many of the others – and for other reasons, of course.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Vik said:


> Have any of you seen a list showing the number of people who haven been tested in each country? Judging by how many (shown as % of the population) who has died in each country/, San Marino comes out worst - they have a population of 34000 people only and it's therefore relatively easy to test a large percentage of the population. After San Marino comes Italy, Spain, Iran, France, Switzerland, Netherlands, China and South Korea and UK – in that order. But all graphs I've seen are somehow misleading, because they don't take into account that some countries have tested a larger percentage of the population than many of the others – and for other reasons, of course.


Look at the deaths. Those are more accurate. They tell us what was happening approximately two weeks ago, and you can also look at it to make educated guesses about the trends.


----------



## Vik

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Look at the deaths. Those are more accurate.


That's what I looked at? Not number of people who have died of Corona in each country, but how large percentage of the population who had died in each of the countries (that had the most deaths).


----------



## gsilbers

Kony said:


> They've been doing stuff like this for centuries without a problem - so why do you think it's a problem now and what evidence do you have that this was the original vector of transmission?



Its definitely came from bats. Maybe jump to another animal and then humans. But still .. bats. Gross. That’s 3rd world country eating rats or spiders... it’s basically unhealthy..

Eating wildlife not meant to be sustainable first is the issue imo. They fish and hunt species close to existion. Hunt rhinos for their horn. It’s basically 3rd world country crap that needs to end specially if they have a middle class the size of the population of USA and europe.

Also, remember that time humans are other humans https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.se...tory-of-people-who-eat-people-1769840684.html

It’s just stuff people don’t do anymore. Eating bats and rats should be basic.

And Other random weird crap they eat.
It’s unsanitary. There are no higiene regulations. They had to learn the hard way and now they are closing all wet markets.


----------



## Dewdman42

gsilbers said:


> and now they are closing all wet markets.



I hope you are right about that, but I doubt it. My suspicion would be that they are closing wet markets so that undercover western reporters won't show photos to the world about what is happening there right now. its just more coverup.

If we are lucky, what can come out of this whole mess is much better cooperation between nations to enforce global health standards. That is very difficult to do with dictatorships and poor economies though. It will need to be more of a cultural change. Unless China were to lose many millions of lives over this, they probably will not change their behavior here, IMHO. Nor some other smaller nations that do the same kinds of things.


----------



## Bluemount Score

Kony said:


> *How's your life affected by Covid-19?*


yes


----------



## Dewdman42

here is the latest news coming from Italy:









Coronavirus doctor says lung scans for young patients were ‘nothing short of terrifying’


A Belgian doctor working to battle the coronavirus says he’s treated several seriously ill young patients — and their lung scans were “nothing short of terrifying,” accordin…




nypost.com





Basically what its saying is that they are having young people get the virus, get very ill...and survive...but their lungs may be permanently damaged. 

The stats you are seeing on CNN do not tell the whole story.


----------



## gsilbers

youngpokie said:


> Here's another from the same source
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China hid the severity of its coronavirus outbreak and muzzled whistleblowers — because it can




Yes. China sucks imo but also being a president and saying China virus instead of just covid19 or Coronavirus like every other president and news and just everyone with common sense Says.


----------



## Maxtrixbass

gsilbers said:


> Might be that the USA is just not used to NOT working. I grew up in South America and schools would be out for 2 weeks just for Holy Week/carnival... (or something).
> So instead of this being an opportunity to declare it a vacation with restrictions it went into let’s save the economy we are all doom.



I think the problem in the US, economically speaking, is that so so many people are stretched really thin even in the best of times. The number of people with no buffer living paycheck to paycheck is pretty alarming. Its not sloth or greed, its decades of stagnating wages and a healthy increase in the cost of everything, not the least of which is healthcare. Debt loads are also insanely high not helped by absurd education tuition and the cost of housing. Want to try living with $100,000 student loan and a mortgage of $600,000? OK, Georgia may have much lower housing cost, but the income is also lower. Its a pretty brutal treadmill.

We went from one income to two income households, now two income households where people are going into absurd debt to buy a house or go to school, plus health insurance that skyrocketed... all in one generation really.

My parents bought a modest house in 1970 for $39K. Last year that house was on the market for 1.5 MILLION. My grandparents bought "modest working class homes" in Seattle, today maybe Amazon or a few Microsoft people could afford them.

My parents couldn't afford their parent's houses, I couldn't afford the house I grew up in, and if I had kids, they couldn't afford the house I have. And that is when there isn't a crisis.

No, not workaholics...


----------



## gsilbers

Dewdman42 said:


> here is the latest news coming from Italy:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus doctor says lung scans for young patients were ‘nothing short of terrifying’
> 
> 
> A Belgian doctor working to battle the coronavirus says he’s treated several seriously ill young patients — and their lung scans were “nothing short of terrifying,” accordin…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Basically what its saying is that they are having young people get the virus, get very ill...and survive...but their lungs may be permanently damaged.
> 
> The stats you are seeing on CNN do not tell the whole story.



It’s crazy how different the stats are. 
I think that’s why we see all those young folks in Florida doing spring break without a care in the world.
I also thought it didn’t affect much younger than 60.


----------



## VivianaSings

gsilbers said:


> Yes. China sucks imo but also being a president and saying China virus instead of just covid19 or Coronavirus like every other president and news and just everyone with common sense Says.



Yeah but it's OK to say spanish flu, or Ebola, or zika virus, etc. I guess certain racism is OK but not others? Big shocker...

China's desperately trying squirm away from the fact that they stuck the world in the shitter. Sorry, internet doesn't forget. Chinese Virus it is. Or the WuFlu as I've been calling it.


----------



## Patrick.K

ism said:


> This has been changing drastically for several thousand years.
> 
> My father, shortly after he immigrated to Canada in the 70s tells a story of visiting a hospital where a very sick, and probably not an especially wealthy child, was being airlifted by helicopter surrounded by a large team of experts. And he thought, well a society willing to mobilize those kinds of resources for anyone's child might not be that bad.



It's a beautiful story


----------



## Dewdman42

The elderly will have an even higher death rate I am quite sure...but particularly if we run out of hospital beds...teh death rate for even middle age and younger folks could be bad also. I read a stat last week that in china, the death rate amongst those hospitalized was 49%. so if you're bad enough to need the hospital, you're in a bad place...and much worse if the hospital is overrun... and what is relevant here is that young people are not immune to this thing. Yes...still a high number of people will never have more then mild symptoms...but a very high number of people that actually get this virus will have not only serious symptoms, but may end up with jacked up lungs for life.... and if the hospitals get slammed, more young people will die then they can imagine right now while they are partying on the beach in FL.


----------



## gsilbers

Maxtrixbass said:


> I think the problem in the US, economically speaking, is that so so many people are stretched really thin even in the best of times. The number of people with no buffer living paycheck to paycheck is pretty alarming. Its not sloth or greed, its decades of stagnating wages and a healthy increase in the cost of everything, not the least of which is healthcare. Debt loads are also insanely high not helped by absurd education tuition and the cost of housing. Want to try living with $100,000 student loan and a mortgage of $600,000? OK, Georgia may have much lower housing cost, but the income is also lower. Its a pretty brutal treadmill.
> 
> We went from one income to two income households, now two income households where people are going into absurd debt to buy a house or go to school, plus health insurance that skyrocketed... all in one generation really.
> 
> My parents bought a modest house in 1970 for $39K. Last year that house was on the market for 1.5 MILLION. My grandparents bought "modest working class homes" in Seattle, today maybe Amazon or a few Microsoft people could afford them.
> 
> My parents couldn't afford their parent's houses, I couldn't afford the house I grew up in, and if I had kids, they couldn't afford the house I have. At that is when there isn't a crisis.
> 
> No, not workaholics...



That’s true. I think that’s why all the appeal with Bernie Sanders and socialism. 
Different charts show how income inequality goes up. Rich get richer etc. 
And now government baila out the stock market companies even though they did stock buybacks. 
It’s a lot to unpack But with this slow down I’m sure health insurance will become a huge talking point. Before was that it was expensive and didn’t help much but after the collapse of the hospital for taking so many covid patients and not helping other conditions I’m sure a big change will come up. Maybe sway back to Bernie. So that last who covid is affecting us.... people. Will see company bailouts and terrible health care that folks will just want to screw the establishment.


----------



## gsilbers

VivianaSings said:


> Yeah but it's OK to say spanish flu, or Ebola, or zika virus, etc. I guess certain racism is OK but not others? Big shocker...
> 
> China's desperately trying squirm away from the fact that they stuck the world in the shitter. Sorry, internet doesn't forget. Chinese Virus it is. Or the WuFlu as I've been calling it.




Oh, I’m not advocating for China to be left off the hook. I mentioned it above. I really hope governments do something to place China in the 21st century in all aspects.

As for the name calling... yes Spanish flu...
But I dont recall mention of African Ebola or Brazilian Zika.

Im more centrist. Fuk China but also no name calling here in the us.


Btw- Spanish flu seems to also have originated in China.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Anyone who thinks calling this the Chinese virus isn't racist xenophobia is totally HUA.

Maybe in a vacuum you could make that case, but in this situation it is 100% an attempt to deflect blame for total ineptness (or even evil, who knows these days). There are already reports of idiots starting up racist crap.

It is called a novel coronavirus and the illness is called COVID-19.

Or else call it the Bakersfield Virus, named for Kevin McCarthy, the jackass who seems to have started this ridiculous garbage.


----------



## Kony

gsilbers said:


> Its definitely came from bats


Source/evidence?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

gsilbers said:


> Fuk China but also no name calling here in the us



The Chinese government is reprehensible. That does not apply to the Chinese people.


----------



## Kony

youngpokie said:


> This is not about pro or anti-China.


I refer you to my earlier comment indicating I don't want to continue in a pro/anti China debate - just a reminder in case you take my silence as agreement or acknowledgment that you might be correct when you are clearly wrong IMO.

I subsequently posted the thread title as a reminder what this thread is about but it seems some people want to continue talking about the source, particular countries and their respective leaders as though that will achieve something.

I'm planning to stay home as much as possible over the next few months and, working from home, shouldn't affect me too much. It will be difficult to visit my octogenarian parents though as they aren't taking it too seriously and I'm concerned that I may pick it up off them - eg dad keeps going out to the shops and will continue to attend church where he sings byzantine chants - thus being exposed to people everywhere. Then there's the other side of the coin - if I visit them, I may unwittingly expose them to the virus.


----------



## Kony

gsilbers said:


> Spanish flu seems to also have originated in China


Source/evidence?


----------



## givemenoughrope

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Anyone who thinks calling this the Chinese virus isn't racist xenophobia is totally HUA.
> 
> Maybe in a vacuum you could make that case, but in this situation it is 100% an attempt to deflect blame for total ineptness (or even evil, who knows these days). There are already reports of idiots starting up racist crap.
> 
> It is called a novel coronavirus and the illness is called COVID-19.
> 
> Or else call it the Bakersfield Virus, named for Kevin McCarthy, the jackass who seems to have started this ridiculous garbage.



Agreed, it's not helpful. But it started in China in a wet market. Ask most Chinese people IN China or elsewhere and the idea of these things is as wacky and disgusting as it is to us. Yes, they've been doing it for thousands of years, but they've been doing it IN China (and staying there). Plenty of Chinese people know that their government is awful and to blame for a lot of what is happening in the aftermath.

There was a Guardian headline that said something like "Americans wake up to Coronavirus, First slowly then all at once" That is how the Chinese will probably wake up to officials like Zhao Lijian being exactly what they are very soon.


----------



## gsilbers

Kony said:


> Source/evidence?



Not really relevant for this outbreak
But here
https://api.nationalgeographic.com/distribution/public/amp/news/2014/1/140123-spanish-flu-1918-china-origins-pandemic-science-health


It happens when humans and wildlife are together. Same happened with other animals but bats for example are notorious for having a humoingous amount of viruses which they are resistant to.

So hopefully China will crack down on wet market and selling wild life.


----------



## Ashermusic

You can think the Chinese government is culpable without being anti-Chinese. The same is true for any government vs their citizens.

It doesn't excuse Trump using it for race baiting.


----------



## dcoscina

JohnG said:


> Sorry David
> 
> I'm going to listen to your podcasts.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> John


Thanks John. Willis was a delight to chat with. Very smart and had great things to say.


----------



## gsilbers

btw - right now im trying really hard not to see the news. 
just staying inside for a while. 
but between the virus and how it affects different nations, the alarmist news, trump and the stock market... tuning out might be better.


----------



## Kony

gsilbers said:


> Not really relevant for this outbreak
> But here
> https://api.nationalgeographic.com/distribution/public/amp/news/2014/1/140123-spanish-flu-1918-china-origins-pandemic-science-health


Not according to CDC:

"The 1918 influenza pandemic was the most severe pandemic in recent history. It was caused by an H1N1 virus with genes of avian origin. Although there is not universal consensus regarding where the virus originated"





__





History of 1918 Flu Pandemic | Pandemic Influenza (Flu) | CDC


History of 1918 Influenza Pandemic




www.cdc.gov


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

givemenoughrope said:


> Agreed, it's not helpful. But it started in China in a wet market



It started with infected bats. They don't care about international borders!


----------



## ism

Ashermusic said:


> You can think the Chinese government is culpable without being anti-Chinese. The same is true for any government vs their citizens.
> 
> It doesn't excuse Trump using it for race baiting.



That's precicely it. It is scientifically accurate that the virus transferred to humans in China. But the *context* in which it has been used by some is clearly, to anyone not actively determined to not see it, race baiting.

And it is politically important to hold the Chineese government accountable for their failures. And the UK and US governments. But again, context.

Like when Richard Dawkins tweets things like "Trinity College Cambridge has more Nobel prizes that the entire muslim world. Just saying" and then is shocked that people are holding him accountable for the dog whistling islamophopia. You have to willfully be ignorant of the context of such a tweet to not see it. (TCC also boasts more Noble prizes than France, incidentally, which is probably true, but seriously manipulates the statistics to make themselves look good).

Pasta also originated in China. Not racist to mention that. But then, you never hear that mentioned.

The point is that context is all important in these things.


----------



## sIR dORT

From what I've heard, I think Nick is correct in that it had something to do with a bat, but do we really know where it started?

Also, let's try and keep this thread about the virus's impact on your life/those around you and not get into politics as much.


----------



## ism

sIR dORT said:


> From what I've heard, I think Nick is correct in that it had something to do with a bat, but do we really know where it started?



The science is well understood I believe: 









COVID-19 coronavirus epidemic has a natural origin


An analysis of public genome sequence data from SARS-CoV-2 and related viruses found no evidence that the virus was made in a laboratory or otherwise engineered.



www.sciencedaily.com


----------



## givemenoughrope

Nick Batzdorf said:


> It started with infected bats. They don't care about international borders!



That's about as clear and helpful as calling it the Chinese Virus or the Kung Flu. Yes, started with bats. How'd it jump to people? The chances OF it jumping to people skyrocket with the pathetic health and safety standards (things like wet markets) in China and other similar parts of the world. It's getting to the point where I'm thinking about going veg or vegan to protect myself from PEOPLE here and on the other side of the world. Being overly PC to the point of ignoring the facts is not only unhelpful but literally deadly.


----------



## Robo Rivard

Amused to Death...


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

givemenoughrope said:


> Yes, started with bats. How'd it jump to people?


----------



## JohnG

Obviously, post whatever you like -- it's not up to anyone to police this -- but the title is more about how it's affecting our community and our friends here, not a repository for rumours or crackpot theories.

For those who want to discuss whatever some nut has posted on Facebook, suggest starting a different thread.

In the mean time, we are all brothers and sisters on this planet, and what we do and how we treat each other matters, so for that reason I would ask that people stop demonizing any group.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

givemenoughrope said:


> Being overly PC to the point of ignoring the facts is not only unhelpful but literally deadly.



It has nothing to do with being PC, it's a matter of having one's eyes open to what this propaganda campaign is all about. Please don't amplify it.

Again, this isn't out of the blue - we have an administration that is guilty of criminal dereliction of duty - and I'm quite serious when I say it may even be criminal manslaughter. They are trying to deflect the blame for what they're doing to us, and of course that tactic is hardly out of character. And it's not going to work.

You have to look at the whole picture, not just whether in the abstract one could name a virus after the country it first appeared in without being xenophobic. This is in the context of the most despicable lies and propaganda all over the place, messages that stupid people believe enough to go party and spread the disease.

Beware the CORONA VIRUS.


----------



## gsilbers

givemenoughrope said:


> That's about as clear and helpful as calling it the Chinese Virus or the Kung Flu. Yes, started with bats. How'd it jump to people? The chances OF it jumping to people skyrocket with the pathetic health and safety standards (things like wet markets) in China and other similar parts of the world. It's getting to the point where I'm thinking about going veg or vegan to protect myself from PEOPLE here and on the other side of the world. Being overly PC to the point of ignoring the facts is not only unhelpful but literally deadly.



I think many are starting to do the blame game for our situation. Just frustration.

It would be easy to say it’s China with its safety standards like if it was a third world country but there over 300,000,000 middle class Chinese that live just like us. What’s worse, there is one new millionaire in China every month. And their government being a dick.

So yeah, I do blame China. And hope other will too and this way force them to adapt to better norms and regulations. It’s not only health due this virus but also all the screwed up stuff economically and rights.
L

Yet it’s easy to say it’s bats and bat soup and some weird thing but there was swine flu and mad cow etc. I think mainly it’s just humans interacting with animals.

And one thing for being vegan which is amazing. almost everything is made from cow. like sooooo many things. the sole of your shoes. anything that has any rubber. pavement on streets. any make up. most beers. its crazy. just google things made with cow or byproduct of cows. I couldn't believe at first. 



Btw- Kung flu lol I didn’t see that before. What a Freaking troll. He has the mind of a 12 year old. and running a country. 
E


----------



## Sears Poncho

All my work/gigs are cancelled officially for the rest of the school year, June-ish. That's bad. What's worse is that it's unlikely that I have any work to go back to. Period. I'm already hearing that arts organizations are considering bankruptcy and are cancelling the 2020-2021 seasons. 

The Performing Arts in the US is basically gone. That might sound like "the sky is falling", it's not. It's 35 years of being involved on about every level, watching budgets, endowments, salaries, a shrinking audience etc. Ballet with live orchestra has been a thing of the past for years. Only large metro areas have any beyond "The Nutcracker", which is usually a tape in smaller markets. Opera has been on life support too. Symphonies that survive will cut half the strings and half the shows and play a lotta 'Beethoven 5" which means they won't need orchestrators like me.

The irony is that I really don't want this stuff supported when so much of the US is going to be so bad off. There will be lots of homeless people, hard to say "support the Symphony" when people are eating out of dumpsters. Hard to ask Mr. and Mrs. Money for donations when so many need so much. I'll survive, somehow. It may be that a little creativity and hard work can spawn new groups, fill new needs for music in the community etc. Same with a lotta you peeps too. The sky is falling but we're creative and smart af. We'll continue to make great music, even if we're eating out of dumpsters.


----------



## gsilbers




----------



## givemenoughrope

Nick Batzdorf said:


> It has nothing to do with being PC, it's a matter of having one's eyes open to what this propaganda campaign is all about. Please don't amplify it.



Which campaign? The more deadly one (from China's CPC) or the expected bs from Trump and co. which will hurt some feelings (that will be the focus, not that he/they denied that there was a problem, thus costing lives)? Trump is a Walter Sobcak for calling it the Chinese Virus (not wrong, just an ahole). China's propaganda machine is trying to sow doubt about where it came from. They won't be held accountable and this will happen again. Their govt, not their people, deserve the blame. As does ours for being completely unprepared. That should be amplified.


----------



## gsilbers

Some random math dude placed this in twitter. thought it was interesting timeline.. so about a week and a half we'll start seeing the issue.


----------



## InLight-Tone

Land of Missing Parts said:


>


More than one tribe has creation legends which describe people as vegetarian, living in a kind of Garden of Eden. A Cherokee legend describes humans, plants, and animals as having lived in the beginning in "equality and mutual helpfulness". The needs of all were met without killing one another. When man became aggressive and ate some of the animals, the animals invented diseases to keep human population in check. The plants remained friendly, however, and offered themselves not only as food to man, but also as medicine, to combat the new diseases. (Bat soup anyone?, Swine Flu, Bird Flu...)


----------



## Quasar

InLight-Tone said:


> More than one tribe has creation legends which describe people as vegetarian, living in a kind of Garden of Eden. A Cherokee legend describes humans, plants, and animals as having lived in the beginning in "equality and mutual helpfulness". The needs of all were met without killing one another. When man became aggressive and ate some of the animals, the animals invented diseases to keep human population in check. The plants remained friendly, however, and offered themselves not only as food to man, but also as medicine, to combat the new diseases. (Bat soup anyone?, Swine Flu, Bird Flu...)


In the Judaeo-Christian tradition humankind was vegetarian until after the flood... There is also a Hopi legend of the Four Headless Men, in which the exploitation of animals was the misdeed of the 1st of the four...


----------



## gsilbers




----------



## bill5

JohnG said:


> Obviously, post whatever you like -- it's not up to anyone to police this -- but the title is more about how it's affecting our community and our friends here, not a repository for rumours or crackpot theories.


Or political rants and finger-pointing. But I'm hardly surprised that appears to be taking up a great deal of this thread and I doubt you are either. Good try though.



> For those who want to discuss whatever some nut has posted on Facebook, suggest starting a different thread.
> 
> In the mean time, we are all brothers and sisters on this planet, and what we do and how we treat each other matters, so for that reason I would ask that people stop demonizing any group.


Yeah g/l with that. But again well said. 

I heard Cuomo made a great speech or talk or whatever - not sure if this is it or part of it, but he makes some good points - IMO the biggest is the idiocy of the two parties pointing fingers at each other and bickering like children, which has been its own pandemic for many years and only gets worse and more idiotic https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2020/03/03/ny-gov-cuomo-theres-a-fear-pandemic-with-coronavirus/

This of all times is to remember what we have in common and pull together in the same direction to beat this thing, not piss in each other's cheerios or blame one person or party or country or whatever. But I think that addiction is too strong to be stopped even by this, and a LOT of people are unfortunately proving me correct right and left every day.


----------



## Kony

Sears Poncho said:


> All my work/gigs are cancelled officially for the rest of the school year, June-ish. That's bad. What's worse is that it's unlikely that I have any work to go back to. Period. I'm already hearing that arts organizations are considering bankruptcy and are cancelling the 2020-2021 seasons.
> 
> The Performing Arts in the US is basically gone. That might sound like "the sky is falling", it's not. It's 35 years of being involved on about every level, watching budgets, endowments, salaries, a shrinking audience etc. Ballet with live orchestra has been a thing of the past for years. Only large metro areas have any beyond "The Nutcracker", which is usually a tape in smaller markets. Opera has been on life support too. Symphonies that survive will cut half the strings and half the shows and play a lotta 'Beethoven 5" which means they won't need orchestrators like me.
> 
> The irony is that I really don't want this stuff supported when so much of the US is going to be so bad off. There will be lots of homeless people, hard to say "support the Symphony" when people are eating out of dumpsters. Hard to ask Mr. and Mrs. Money for donations when so many need so much. I'll survive, somehow. It may be that a little creativity and hard work can spawn new groups, fill new needs for music in the community etc. Same with a lotta you peeps too. The sky is falling but we're creative and smart af. We'll continue to make great music, even if we're eating out of dumpsters.



Some orchestras are adapting quickly though - MSO live streaming Beethoven's 7th today - 7.30pm AEST


----------



## Dewdman42

Beijing Fears COVID-19 Is Turning Point for China, Globalization | RealClearPolitics


While the world fights the coronavirus pandemic, China is fighting a propaganda war. Beijings war aim is simple: shift away from China all blame for the outbreak, the botched initial response, and...




www.realclearpolitics.com


----------



## sIR dORT

I had my first of the online piano lessons today, and it actually went very smoothly over FaceTime. Nice to know that that segment of my life will remain the same for the most part!


----------



## Sears Poncho

Kony said:


> Some orchestras are adapting quickly though - MSO live streaming Beethoven's 7th today - 7.30pm AEST


Yes, quite a bit of folks are doing something like this. I had a show on Tuesday (cancelled) that was to be for kids. The plan was to play it without them there and livestream or video it. Never happened. My state won't allow more than 50 in the same room, which was about the size of the band.

The sad part: that picture of Melbourne shows a situation that's risky and probably dangerous. Literally isn't allowed in my state. Regardless, I appreciate the "show must go on" mentality, but not with a possible outcome of spreading this. I'm 55, I've had health issues but overall fine. I'm on the cusp, I'm not "old" but I'm no spring chicken.  I wouldn't want to be there. It's a tough situation for all, I wish them the best and hope they stay healthy.


----------



## Kony

@Dewdman42 feel free to start a discussion about China in the politics forum - that's what the politics forum is for. 

Some of us are here to learn about how people are being affected and coping strategies. Thanks! 



Off-Topics - Political - Enter at own risk!


----------



## Kony

Sears Poncho said:


> Yes, quite a bit of folks are doing something like this. I had a show on Tuesday (cancelled) that was to be for kids. The plan was to play it without them there and livestream or video it. Never happened. My state won't allow more than 50 in the same room, which was about the size of the band.
> 
> The sad part: that picture of Melbourne shows a situation that's risky and probably dangerous. Literally isn't allowed in my state. Regardless, I appreciate the "show must go on" mentality, but not with a possible outcome of spreading this. I'm 55, I've had health issues but overall fine. I'm on the cusp, I'm not "old" but I'm no spring chicken.  I wouldn't want to be there. It's a tough situation for all, I wish them the best and hope they stay healthy.


Agreed - I think Melbourne will get locked down soon enough. Hopefully, once the new blood test is out and people learn whether they've already had it, orchestras can start to regroup when members learn they've acquired immunity. Wishful, I know, but we have to hope for the best.


----------



## jononotbono

How's self isolation going for everybody? Things are going ok my end.


----------



## Kony

STec said:


> Music stores are a good place to get viruses. People touches knobs, keys, etc.


This store has come up with a (temporary) solution - using disinfection fog machines

"*In Store*
For the time being, all our stores are maintaining their regular opening hours. Naturally, we are offering the same friendly service, but are cutting down on contact (sorry, no handshakes or hugs for now). We are regularly disinfecting our demo gear and have ordered a disinfection fog machine for each of our stores." 





__





disinfection Search Results







www.storedj.com.au





EDIT: Handing out rubber gloves might be easier


----------



## rgames

I think I got the last drink order in Tucson - I was sitting on a patio at a restaurant watching the sun set yesterday when the notice went out saying that all restaurants are now closed for dine-in. Schools are shut down here for at least two weeks, one of which was spring break so the real impact is only one week so far. There's still plenty of food at grocery stores but the choices aren't great and there's 
no toilet paper... Most businesses are working from home to the extent possible.

There are three things about this situation that we need to remember:

1. Adapt your behaviors - with a few simple precautions it's easy to significantly reduce your risk of exposure. This isn't like an asteroid impact where you're helpless.

2. Don't exit the economy - do what you can to support local businesses while still exercising caution. Reducing economic activity out of fear will only make things worse.

3. Epidemiology is not physics - there are large uncertainties in how the virus will spread and how it will impact peoples' health. Decisions are being made based on risk management principles with guidance from the scientific community. This process does not predict the future; rather, it evaluates the likelihood of a number of outcomes and their consequences. So whether a decision is an over- or under-reaction is difficult to judge in most instances. In the extreme, shutting everything down will be the most effective means to halt the virus but doing so will also likely plunge the world into a terrible economic depression. The decision process attempts to balance those competing outcomes.

Having worked in science policy for the US government, I assure you that the people behind the scenes who are in control are smart, thoughtful and working in the best interests of the country. I can also assure you that those decisions are extremely difficult to make, so bear that in mind.

rgames


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

bill5 said:


> IMO the biggest is the idiocy of the two parties pointing fingers at each other and bickering like children



This is in no way symmetrical.

There are still Republicans advising their constituents to go out and party, that this is all a Democratic hoax.

And the administration is doing little other than lying about how tremendous the testing is. Fortunately some states - like NY and CA, but not only - have competent administrations who are at least doing what they can.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

rgames said:


> 3. Epidemiology is not physics



Right, but.... we have very clear models: Italy vs. South Korea, for example.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

rgames said:


> Decisions are being made based on risk management principles with guidance from the scientific community.



Or are they being made by an evil moron who did nothing to save people's lives until too late because he wanted to keep "the numbers" low since it was to his political advantage? And who was briefed on this exact scenario by the outgoing admin, but went ahead and closed down the infrastructure set up to respond for no logical reason?

You've seen those press conferences!


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Sorry to be so argumentative - seriously, that isn't what I want to do here - but Kushner is being allowed to set up his own shadow corona virus "team":

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/kushner-coronavirus-team-sparks-confusion-plaudits-inside-white-house-response-efforts/2020/03/18/02038a16-6874-11ea-9923-57073adce27c_story.html
This is a clustershag. The idea that this is being run by competent scientists... I want to believe it, but am not feeling all that sanguine right now.


----------



## rgames

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The idea that this is being run by competent scientists...


Here in Arizona I think things are progressing along a sensible trajectory. Our state and local leadership took information and guidance from the CDC and NIH and made reasonable decisions on how to respond to COVID-19. At the national level I think the decisions to limit access to the country were also appropriate and in the combined interests of the states.

rgames


----------



## Thundercat

Maxtrixbass said:


> I think its about money. It all about money. I listen to the news and its actually daily reported how much money new movie releases are making. Batman came in first at 66 million... Who cares?
> 
> There is a weird, but common, attitude I see from people with money and that is "I did it, why can't you?. Some people do make bad choices and others have worked hard and done well, but there are many people who made bad choices who have done well and good that die impoverished.
> 
> I should say that I live well. I'm not Bill Gates, but according to the Forbes chart I'm in the top 2%...and despite good insurance I still worry about going bankrupt if I get sick. My god, think about people who live paycheck to paycheck or worse , which is just about everybody.
> 
> I'm told senators in this country spend about 3-4 hours a day on the phone raising money for their campaigns..even in off years. Sick. They aren't calling me. Any of you talked to a senator lately? Who's interest do you think they will follow?
> 
> Money. The entire US culture is fixated on money..


Completely spot on.

And money is a made up artifice that separates people from the resources and experiences they want and need.

the system aggregates vast amounts of money into the hands of very few, while most of the rest scrape and struggle.

those who dint need money have it in spades. It’s like a bizzaro Horror movie house of mirrors where everything is distorted and nothing makes sense.

There’s a book called Ubuntu Contributionism. Great ideas.


----------



## Thundercat

Dewdman42 said:


> marital?
> 
> martial?
> 
> anyway, you're the editor, you decide...


Martian?


----------



## Thundercat

Polkasound said:


> There's a lot of denial here, too. Some people deal with serious issues by suppressing them with willful ignorance. Instead of taking in information and making informed decisions, their immediate reaction is to deny the problem and make no changes to their lifestyle. Unfortunately, these are the people who are going to be hogging all the available respirators.
> 
> On another note, I am officially laid off. All of my gigs have been canceled/postponed until future notice. For the time being, I'll be living entirely off savings. Scary times.


Sorry to hear. My prayers and love to you and your family to get back on your feet ASAP! 💕🌞🌈


----------



## AndyP

gsilbers said:


>



It's a crying shame! I'm afraid Trump is not alone in this. His "friend" Wladimir is even worse.

I hope the voters make the right decision in November.


----------



## AndyP

Many, if not all, countries in Europe have also underestimated the situation.
In January, Germany gave respiratory masks to China, which is basically a good measure of solidarity.
Now these are missing in doctors' practices, hospitals and other institutions.
Even now, half-hearted measures are being taken and a lot is being done on a voluntary basis. Of course many people do not follow the recommendations.
Even when the virus was rampant in Italy, holidaymakers were left without measures. 
What was perhaps well-intentioned in order not to give people the feeling that they were being bullied is now turning out to be a bad decision.
Germany often thinks of itself as the forerunner in many things, but we are miles behind the others.
Merkel has kept a low profile for a long time, and even now her statements are half-hearted instead of consistently taking restrictive measures.
The majority of citizens would accept curfews, for example.
Bureaucrats are the death of any system.


----------



## gsilbers

AndyP said:


> Many, if not all, countries in Europe have also underestimated the situation.
> In January, Germany gave respiratory masks to China, which is basically a good measure of solidarity.
> Now these are missing in doctors' practices, hospitals and other institutions.
> Even now, half-hearted measures are being taken and a lot is being done on a voluntary basis. Of course many people do not follow the recommendations.
> Even when the virus was rampant in Italy, holidaymakers were left without measures.
> What was perhaps well-intentioned in order not to give people the feeling that they were being bullied is now turning out to be a bad decision.
> Germany often thinks of itself as the forerunner in many things, but we are miles behind the others.
> Merkel has kept a low profile for a long time, and even now her statements are half-hearted instead of consistently taking restrictive measures.
> The majority of citizens would accept curfews, for example.
> Bureaucrats are the death of any system.



it got the world by suprised. we keep seeing china as this far away land that magically makes cheap stuff. the US is now more freaked out because of Italy. They now see.. hey.. its white poeple beign affected so now im worried. We will probably see china much closer and how it easier it affects us in a more close impact. 

And also, germany is not exactly the country with the best history track record on goverment authority so doing a huge crack down early own might of trigger a lot of bad memories.

And all countries consider themselves "free" so a quarantine is a bit harder. in the US you never see the Army on the streets or just random army guys with machine guns...
in EU and other places its common to see army guys with huge machine guns at airports and train stations.
Doing an army deplyment to force quarantine would sure get a lot of poeple to take out their confederate flags for sure.


----------



## gsilbers

And here is the fox news version of this



hope this really bites them on the ass and loose all credibility among their viewers. 
This is sort of like a parallel on climate change but just that now its a lot faster.


----------



## gsilbers

AndyP said:


> It's a crying shame! I'm afraid Trump is not alone in this. His "friend" Wladimir is even worse.
> 
> I hope the voters make the right decision in November.



i think most of us are now clear thats its up to us and our state governments . florida is on its way to being the most affected imo. a lot of young reckless poeple just not caring in a state where most old poeple retire. so thats going to be something in the coming weeks. 
And the governors of each state are reacting differently. a democrat in kentucky was very proper and has been doign the right thing while moscow mitch (kentuky senator) was leaving for vacation cuz didnt think it was an issue. 
so hopefully the landscape in november changes a lot. this defintly will help sway voters one way or another. 
I do hope all republicans loose in november. im ok with conservatives and some right wing measures i think would help in some intances but today republicans have turned into this evil cultural phenomenon thanks to fox news who clearly doesnt care just wants to propel this wierd paralel agenda to get more viewers and ads. no matter the cost. it affected us from trump to corona.


----------



## gsilbers

rgames said:


> Here in Arizona I think things are progressing along a sensible trajectory. Our state and local leadership took information and guidance from the CDC and NIH and made reasonable decisions on how to respond to COVID-19. At the national level I think the decisions to limit access to the country were also appropriate and in the combined interests of the states.
> 
> rgames




I feel in the US the real issue will be places like NYC, SF, Boston and Seattle where most poeple ride public transportation and are much closer together.

*More Than Half of U.S. Population in 4.6 Percent of Counties*

50% of seniors like in small counties. so thats kinda good news.


For reference, the 5 boroughs in NYC has more population than the TOTAL of most states.
Same as SF and seattle area. so imo that brings a lot of contagion. 




so cutting schools i think is the best thing since most jobs dont have that many people together.


----------



## Maxtrixbass

Here in western Washington state, which seems to be a week or so ahead of everyone in terms of how things are unfolding:

I think pretty much everyone is taking it seriously by now. When the reported cases started to surround us (that is, its not far off China or Italy, or an hour away, but bubbling up in every direction in our immediate area) things pretty much all shut down. Even the banks are now closed. What businesses are open are on restricted hours in part for practical reasons (lack of business or in the case of grocery stores to restock). Busses may be running, but they are mostly empty. The roads are pretty empty. People are largely staying home.

If the number crunchers prove true, in a couple weeks emergency response could start to lag, meaning anyone who gets sick with anything serious will be "take a number".

I really don't want to cause alarm, but if you are in an state with few cases and maybe none in your area it is easy to blow this off. Things really do move quickly. _I live in a rural/suburban area, pretty low density population wise_ with very little "gathering places" (some people who come here complain of a lack of anything like a "downtown"), and yet _it is still spreading quickly. 

Don't think its just a "city thing"._


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

rgames said:


> Here in Arizona I think things are progressing along a sensible trajectory. Our state and local leadership took information and guidance from the CDC and NIH and made reasonable decisions on how to respond to COVID-19. At the national level I think the decisions to limit access to the country were also appropriate and in the combined interests of the states.
> 
> rgames



Yes, a few states have competent governments.

The problem is that it's too late to do anything but avoid the absolute worst case, and that's 100% only because of conscious decisions at the top. It's too facile just to say politics has nothing to do with it, that we all just need to pull together (which you didn't say, but someone else did).

The first cases were in December. Any borderline sane administration would have ordered medical supplies we don't have, ensured that we had plenty of virus tests (rather than spurning the ones offered by the WHO), arranged for quarantines, and had a containment plan.

Meanwhile, the evil moron has one entire political party cowed into submission. How many more stories like the following one are there?

I will never be able to forgive the people responsible for this - all 63 million of them:


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Maxtrixbass said:


> Things really do move quickly.


Yes, this moves _quickly_. Like, possibly 10x in a week.

As in: today it's 10,000. In a week it's 100,000. In another week 1,000,000.


----------



## MauroPantin

Word on the street is that we are about to go into a full nation-wide lockdown beginning today or tomorrow and for 2 weeks at a minimum. It's getting pretty real, pretty fast. 

Only 97 confirmed infected and 3 deaths but we are all in favor of avoiding a situation in which health workers have to choose who lives and who dies. 

We've also found several tourists violating the mandatory quarantine you have to do if you came from a hot zone. They've been expelled but the damage is done, they've already been out and about.

I need to do a run and get some food and supplies to my folks before this is placed into effect. Work has definitely taken a back seat for the time being.


----------



## Dewdman42

It’s not just a city thing. I live in a small cowboy town that is pretty much Mayberry. A few days ago a high school kid got it and a day later another kid. 15 miles away in park city, which is a ski resort town; the 22nd case came up yesterday. The first case was a week ago. It’s already in community spread and these are not dense urban areas.

I think the partisan in fighting at this time is despicable.


----------



## Maxtrixbass

MauroPantin said:


> Word on the street is that we are about to go into a full nation-wide lockdown beginning today or tomorrow and for 2 weeks at a minimum. It's getting pretty real, pretty fast.
> 
> Only 97 confirmed infected and 3 deaths but we are all in favor of avoiding a situation in which health workers have to choose who lives and who dies.



It seems like an over reaction, but within an hour of me there are now ~700 cases and 50 deaths. Its like a brush fire. I was just thinking "my god, was that only a week ago?' about loosing my last piece of income. Two weeks ago seems like another world. Things change very very quickly.


----------



## MartinH.

Maxtrixbass said:


> It seems like an over reaction, but within an hour of me there are now ~700 cases and 50 deaths.



700 cases vs 50 deaths feels off as a ratio, meaning they are likely under-testing and thus under-reporting cases. That's more deaths than the entirety of Germany has (as far as the numbers that I could find) with our over 10k positively tested patients.


----------



## gsilbers

Maxtrixbass said:


> Here in western Washington state, which seems to be a week or so ahead of everyone in terms of how things are unfolding:
> 
> I think pretty much everyone is taking it seriously by now. When the reported cases started to surround us (that is, its not far off China or Italy, or an hour away, but bubbling up in every direction in our immediate area) things pretty much all shut down. Even the banks are now closed. What businesses are open are on restricted hours in part for practical reasons (lack of business or in the case of grocery stores to restock). Busses may be running, but they are mostly empty. The roads are pretty empty. People are largely staying home.
> 
> If the number crunchers prove true, in a couple weeks emergency response could start to lag, meaning anyone who gets sick with anything serious will be "take a number".
> 
> I really don't want to cause alarm, but if you are in an state with few cases and maybe none in your area it is easy to blow this off. Things really do move quickly. _I live in a rural/suburban area, pretty low density population wise_ with very little "gathering places" (some people who come here complain of a lack of anything like a "downtown"), and yet _it is still spreading quickly.
> 
> Don't think its just a "city thing"._




for sure it will affect everyone. but you have to get on a car to go shopping and bulk up. in NYC ir milan you have a grab a loaded bus or subway. and i just have to see my friends instagram account from different areas in LA and NY to see how many poeple are at anyone time in costco. waiting in hour long lines to bulk up with plenty of people around them. in small towns its easier to mitigate the spread. 
so even though cases will get to small counties, NYC is right now extremely ahead of cases. its not like cases will not get to small towns but the spread will be slower. 
most people get flu because kids bring it home from school. so closing schoold is a good thing. 
Still as my previous post, it depends on the hopsital beds and respirators in each county hospital. 
and how many older poeple there are in the area. 
but a lot of this info is mute if we dont have testing kits to see how many cases.


----------



## gsilbers

MartinH. said:


> 700 cases vs 50 deaths feels off as a ratio, meaning they are likely under-testing and thus under-reporting cases. That's more deaths than the entirety of Germany has (as far as the numbers that I could find) with our over 10k positively tested patients.



he is near seattle... the virus somehow got into 3 reitrement homes. so it helped push the % higher.


----------



## Maxtrixbass

MartinH. said:


> 700 cases vs 50 deaths feels off as a ratio, meaning they are likely under-testing and thus under-reporting cases. That's more deaths than the entirety of Germany has (as far as the numbers that I could find) with our over 10k positively tested patients.


Agreed. Testing has been a problem here in the US. I guess my point was more the rate of change.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

Maxtrixbass said:


> Even the banks are now closed.



This is scary. Did any of you pull some cash from your bank? Seems like it would be good to have cash on hand if the banks are going to close.


----------



## Bear Market

gsilbers said:


> in EU and other places its common to see army guys with huge machine guns at airports and train stations.



Is it? Not in Scandinavia.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

marclawsonmusic said:


> This is scary. Did any of you pull some cash from your bank? Seems like it would be good to have cash on hand if the banks are going to close.



They just closed the offices, no bank run necessary.

These days, bank runs look like 2008, not like they did during the Depression.


----------



## Michael Antrum

Here in the UK it seems we have about a week, depending on where you are before this thing really hits, though I think it may be a bit earlier in London.

I’m quite worried about what will happen in London, as it could be a bit of a tinderbox. Up North in Yorkshire, we tend to be a bit less ‘excitable’, and my wife, who is from the East End tells me some of her friends have told her about some pretty unpleasant behaviour in shops and supermarkets down in the smoke.....


----------



## Maxtrixbass

marclawsonmusic said:


> This is scary. Did any of you pull some cash from your bank? Seems like it would be good to have cash on hand if the banks are going to close.


Yes, I should have clarified. All walk ins /lobbies are closed. You can still use an ATM and I think some drive up windows.


----------



## MartinH.

Maxtrixbass said:


> Yes, I should have clarified. All walk ins /lobbies are closed. You can still use an ATM and I think some drive up windows.



Not sure if our banks are still open in Germany. I should bring another data backup to the vault before the chance may be gone for a while.


----------



## dzilizzi

AndyP said:


> It's a crying shame! I'm afraid Trump is not alone in this. His "friend" Wladimir is even worse.
> 
> I hope the voters make the right decision in November.


So I have a bit of a problem with this as I read about Sanders and Biden still crossing the country campaigning. And the pictures show crowds. How is this any better? I think Mickey Mouse might make a better president. Oh, wait, that is what we have. I guess it's the best we can do. Politicians suck. Government workers, however, just keep doing their jobs and try to get the most done with what they have. 

I'm also not sure what the Federal Government can do really. Each state has to decide whether to close schools, state buildings, restaurants, etc.... I think only if they declare a state of emergency can the Federal Government step in. And that may require Congress to agree on something. 

That said, the local base basically closed today. Minimal people to keep things going, work from home if possible.


----------



## AndyP

The problem I have with Donald Trump is that everything he does is solely for his benefit.
The many lies are almost negligible compared to his failure in this crisis.
The obvious cannot be denied, it is documented. All the less I understand that there are people who defend this man.
I don't really care if someone is a Democrat or a Republican, or who provides the President. Whether the Bidens are better or not is not the question here.
I would say the same about anyone, whether they are close to my political views or not.
A president has a job to do, he has to serve his country. Not the country the president! Period.

It is up to each individual how good or badly someone embarrasses himself. As long as others do not have to suffer from it.


----------



## dzilizzi

AndyP said:


> The problem I have with Donald Trump is that everything he does is solely for his benefit.
> The many lies are almost negligible compared to his failure in this crisis.
> The obvious cannot be denied, it is documented. All the less I understand that there are people who defend this man.
> I don't really care if someone is a Democrat or a Republican, or who provides the President. Whether the Bidens are better or not is not the question here.
> I would say the same about anyone, whether they are close to my political views or not.
> A president has a job to do, he has to serve his country. Not the country the president! Period.
> 
> It is up to each individual how good or badly someone embarrasses himself. As long as others do not have to suffer from it.


I don't disagree. I just think they are all bad. I have yet to see someone in office who isn't doing it for him/her-self. Just look at how poor some of them go in and how rich they are when they come out. They spend all their time insulting each other. I rarely vote because of this. And it isn't just our country. Look at other countries, and CEO's. They are all the same. Leadership used to mean something. It doesn't anymore. 

Well, don't get me started. That would get us put in the drama zone LOL!


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

dzilizzi said:


> I'm also not sure what the Federal Government can do really.


Messaging and guidance.


----------



## dzilizzi

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Messaging and guidance.


Well, the CDC is doing that. 

I don't ever actually listen to the President unless someone forces me to. I'm always surprised when people do.


----------



## AndyP

dzilizzi said:


> I don't disagree. I just think they are all bad. I have yet to see someone in office who isn't doing it for him/her-self. Just look at how poor some of them go in and how rich they are when they come out. They spend all their time insulting each other. I rarely vote because of this. And it isn't just our country. Look at other countries, and CEO's. They are all the same. Leadership used to mean something. It doesn't anymore.
> 
> Well, don't get me started. That would get us put in the drama zone LOL!


I can hardly disagree with that.


----------



## Rob

I live in what is now the worst place in Italy, the town of Brescia. Here, virus is killing from 70 to 80 people a day, things look rather scary. Me and my wife stay home and I only go out to buy some food and other necessary things... it's been nice to know you all


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Rob said:


> it's been nice to know you all


Do make sure to give us updates on how you are Rob. ❤


----------



## Rob

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Do make sure to give us updates on how you are Rob. ❤


fine so far, I'll keep posted if things get worse


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

dzilizzi said:


> I don't ever actually listen to the President unless someone forces me to. I'm always surprised when people do.


Many Republicans have no choice but to listen to Trump, so that they don't take any action or say things that would appear to undermine him.


----------



## re-peat

Phewwww .. Am I glad to see you post, Rob. Been thinking rather a lot about you these past few days. Great to hear you and the wife are fine. Hang in there and stay well.

_


----------



## KarlHeinz

> Not sure if our banks are still open in Germany



I can only speak for my City, Quedlinburg, in Saxony-Anhalt. As our office is in the same building then the "Sparkasse" (one of the german banks that occur in every part of germany) just today I have a talk with the facility manager and got an actual update: only the small branches will close, so for this example the main building here in Quedlinburg where we are in will stay open. But the small branches will close and the bank bus who usually drive to the small villages will close from Monday on. Really difficult decision I would think: on the one hand the old people are the ones mostly need that "old" direct banking without internet on the other hand they are the most at risk. I would think (for the moment) that will be the normal case here in germany but thinks change hourly. Yesterday hotels here in this region called "Harz" stayed open for tourist, today they told they will be closed from tomorrow on.


----------



## dzilizzi

In my area, a lot of the bank branches are inside grocery stores. Mine mentioned that though they are open, they are limited by hours of the store of if the store is open. And you probably have to stand in the store line outside. 

I'm glad my husband got some cash just in case. Probably not enough if the world falls apart. But enough for emergencies.


----------



## JohnG

dzilizzi said:


> I read about Sanders and Biden still crossing the country campaigning. And the pictures show crowds.



I don't think that's happening anymore. I haven't seen Trump or either of the remaining Democratic challengers rallying for a number of days now.


----------



## givemenoughrope

Rob said:


> fine so far, I'll keep posted if things get worse



stay safe, Rob

and everyone for that matter


----------



## Maxtrixbass

Rob said:


> I live in what is now the worst place in Italy, the town of Brescia. Here, virus is killing from 70 to 80 people a day, things look rather scary. Me and my wife stay home and I only go out to buy some food and other necessary things... it's been nice to know you all



Could you elaborate a bit on what that looks like? Is the area quiet and people mostly just staying at home? Any idea what the hospitals are like?

Apart from hoping you are well, we are a few steps behind you... Just be good to know what we are in for.


----------



## gsilbers

Bear Market said:


> Is it? Not in Scandinavia.



I remember mostly at airport and train stations.


----------



## Rob

Maxtrixbass said:


> Could you elaborate a bit on what that looks like? Is the area quiet and people mostly just staying at home? Any idea what the hospitals are like?
> 
> Apart from hoping you are well, we are a few steps behind you... Just be good to know what we are in for.


up to a week ago or so, you could see people walking in the streets, albeit far less than usual and isolated... but now it's like living on the moon. Nobody around, and we are not permitted to go out unless we have a self-signed form that states where and why we are getting off.
Hospitals, as far as I know, which is what the local newspaper reports, are to the verge of collapsing... both because the wards are full (they have built tents to accommodate excess patients) and because we are lacking medical staff. I think we are at the peak right now, and things should slowly be going better (hoping)


----------



## KarlHeinz

Hi Rob, really all the best to you, and I hope so much that this is really the peak, thats haunting.

Just had a discussion with my wife on curfew here in germany, I was doubting, but after your descriptions...evrything that could help maybe that its not getting that bad here in germany ist better then this, I think I really would agree right now....


----------



## babylonwaves

hey,

I have a request. here's a couple of people who are in the middle of the storm and if we could limit ourselves to update/post our personal situation instead of posting political/economical analyses, thing can keep being supportive and personal in this thread. if you wish to discuss politics, open a new thread - let's keep things separate.

I think people like @Rob show us how devastating all this is can be, and since it is not limited to a country, why don't we keep the nonsense out.

I'm in Germany and things start to get weird here. When I read what rob says, we're in for a transforming rollercoaster or, in other words the shit will hit the fan soon. I hope it's not the case but there is no indication why we would have much more luck than Italy.

Keep being healthy VIs, we need you to complain about those libraries!

Marc

ps:





__





COVID-19 - let's discuss how we cope and how it affect us - no political discussion please


This thread is about discussing COVID-19, what it means to us personally as human beings and professionally as artists. The reason why I'm opening this thread is simply: I want one which is not about politics because it doesn't help people who're in the middle of the storm. I'm not, I'm at the...




vi-control.net


----------



## Uiroo

babylonwaves said:


> hey,
> 
> I have a request. here's a couple of people who are in the middle of the storm and if we could limit ourselves to update/post our personal situation instead of posting political/economical analyses, thing can keep being supportive and personal in this thread. if you wish to discuss politics, open a new thread - let's keep things separate.
> 
> I think people like @Rob show us how devastating all this is can be, and since it is not limited to a country, why don't we keep the nonsense out.
> 
> I'm in Germany and things start to get weird here. When I read what rob says, we're in for a transforming rollercoaster or, in other words the shit will hit the fan soon. I hope it's not the case but there is no indication why we would have much more luck than Italy.
> 
> Keep being healthy VIs, we need you to complain about those libraries!
> 
> Marc


I second that.


----------



## Kony

marclawsonmusic said:


> This is scary. Did any of you pull some cash from your bank? Seems like it would be good to have cash on hand if the banks are going to close.


Official advice is that people should avoid handling cash as this is a vector for transmission


----------



## MartinH.

I think I need to step back for a bit and spend less time online. It has nothing to do with anything anyone said specifically, but I'm having trouble doing anything other than nonstop checking news and refreshing threads and it feels seriously unhealthy for me. I'm struggling with finding my "new normal" more than I anticipated in the situation.



Uiroo said:


> If she'll be in a life-threatening condition I'm not even sure if I can visit her. If the hospitals are full, she'll certainly be one of those how get send home. Same for my mother.
> The situation is serious and for once I'd appreciate that people ACTUALLY try to stay on topic.
> I may not be long until someone reading this will loose a loved one.


Similar thoughts plague me. I hope they'll find ways to stay safe and we'll all find ways to cope with this kind of anxiety.

Best of luck to everyone and their loved ones!


----------



## Kony

MartinH. said:


> I think I need to step back for a bit and spend less time online. It has nothing to do with anything anyone said specifically, but I'm having trouble doing anything other than nonstop checking news and refreshing threads and it feels seriously unhealthy for me. I'm struggling with finding my "new normal" more than I anticipated in the situation.
> 
> 
> Similar thoughts plague me. I hope they'll find ways to stay safe and we'll all find ways to cope with this kind of anxiety.
> 
> Best of luck to everyone and their loved ones!


Agree with you - although it's good to acquire knowledge to be prepared etc - but assuming most of us are going to be locked down for a while, it's probably better to "switch off" mentally if isolating at home for the next few weeks. 

I definitely need to switch off a bit - especially after having a dream last night about running through a supermarket to buy toilet paper! I haven't had to do that (yet) but I'm obviously trying to tell myself something, or subconsciously stressing about if/when supplies run out due to constant panic-buying by the general public. Is it time for ration coupons?


----------



## gsilbers

That’s some grim news from Italy.

Half the cases and same death tally.

It’s hard to gauge as other countries have high rates but not that many deaths.

A lot of older people seems to be the cases but younger as well.


----------



## Kony

I'm seeing more pics in the news of guys wearing face masks without shaving - some guys in these pics look like they haven't shaved for days. 

More public information needs to be put out there that the masks won't work if you haven't shaved - there has to be zero stubble.


----------



## gsilbers

Kony said:


> I'm seeing more pics in the news of guys wearing face masks without shaving - some guys in these pics look like they haven't shaved for days.
> 
> More public information needs to be put out there that the masks won't work if you haven't shaved - there has to be zero stubble.



I don't think there are masks available for sale for this virus. I saw some ads for n95 masks in Facebook and people where going nuts to buy them, but then on the comments section people kept mentioning it has to be a specific type of masks to not get infected. 
regular masks is more about making sure people that might have the virus will not spread it easily.


----------



## Dewdman42

Uiroo said:


> I just say this, my grandma is 80+, has lung issues and a heart condition, if she gets this I don't think she'll make it. If she'll be in a life-threatening condition I'm not even sure if I can visit her. If the hospitals are full, she'll certainly be one of those how get send home. Same for my mother.
> The situation is serious and for once I'd appreciate that people ACTUALLY try to stay on topic.
> I may not be long until someone reading this will loose a loved one.
> 
> If you're "in the mood" you can insert curse words followed by insults at the and of every sentence.
> Also just a suggestion.



I hear you. I'm worried about my 80 year mom also, she lives in assisted living. Until a week ago they were allowing visitors and when I inquired the nurse told me she felt the whole situation was being blown out of proportion and just like the flu! I was going to go pickup my mom and bring her to my house after I heard that, but the next day the general manager majorly ramped up their seriousness, so they are now taking much more extreme precautions, blocking all visitors and other things. I think an older person at home is far safer, but the thing you can do to help them in that case is order food and supplies delivered to their home so that they don't have to leave. If they stay inside, don't take any visitors and don't leave, they'll get through it.

But I am also concerned about emotional/mental health. I've been in my house a week with the internet to play on and I'm already feeling little insane.


----------



## AndyP

I'm not having a good day today. My parents don't want to see me. Not because they're afraid I'll infect them, but because they care about me.
They're both in bad shape and it's bothering me. I thought I could handle it better, but I'm really worried.
Oh, man, I never thought we'd be in this situation.
I've drunk 1.5 bottles of red wine and I'm angry at all the political failures that have failed to take the right measures in time.
On the other hand, the situation is new for everyone and I should not be unfair.
I hope you and those you love are doing well.


----------



## Dewdman42

AndyP said:


> I'm not having a good day today. My parents don't want to see me. Not because they're afraid I'll infect them, but because they care about me.
> They're both in bad shape and it's bothering me. I thought I could handle it better, but I'm really worried.
> Oh, man, I never thought we'd be in this situation.
> I've drunk 1.5 bottles of red wine and I'm angry at all the political failures that have failed to take the right measures in time.
> On the other hand, the situation is new for everyone and I should not be unfair.
> I hope you and those you love are doing well.



How old are your parents Andy? I actually recommend you don't see them. But talk to them on the phone every day and order stuff delivered to them to help them out.


----------



## Dewdman42

I even thought about sending an iPad to my mom so she can FaceTime, but she'd never figure out how to use it.


----------



## AndyP

Dewdman42 said:


> How old are your parents Andy? I actually recommend you don't see them. But talk to them on the phone every day and order stuff delivered to them to help them out.


My dad's over 80, my mom's 77. She's got cancer, corduroy and heart disease. My father has a heart condition. He cares for her sacrificially, although he himself needs rest.
And he sends me funny whats app messages every day. I know that neither of them are in a good place.
They worry about me because I've had two myocardial infarctions and I have asthma.
It's just crazy sitting at home and not being able to help.

And I have to say, I'm fine. I got through it all just fine. I know I have to be careful, but everything worked out fine for the circumstances.


----------



## Kony

Dewdman42 said:


> I even thought about sending an iPad to my mom so she can FaceTime, but she'd never figure out how to use it.


Is it possible to set it up for your mum, send it to her and talk her through how to use it over the phone? I think it's really important for everyone to stay connected and lessen the impacts of isolation - video calls are definitely the best way to do this IMO


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Okay, some of the better political posts - meaning my own, of course, and some others - have been moved here:






Covid-19: The Politics Oh The Politics Ooh Ooh Ooh


Im also not sure what the Federal Government can do really. It's a large country that requires a federal government to coordinate efforts. So I'd say you're half right and 90% wrong. :) Please read this...



vi-control.net


----------



## gsilbers

Random thought. But back in day Americans used to have small pox kids parties so kids would get it young and be inmune.

I think that was the idea of the uk. Seems we most of us will get it. With enough ventilators it should be safe enough. But if 5 kids get it
Then like 30 will get it in two days.


----------



## ptram

Kony said:


> Source/evidence?


The origin from bats is likely, but still open to debate.









Mystery deepens over animal source of coronavirus


Pangolins are a prime suspect, but a slew of genetic analyses has yet to find conclusive proof.




www.nature.com





Paolo


----------



## Vin

gsilbers said:


> Random thought. But back in day Americans used to have small pox kids parties so kids would get it young and be inmune.



Chickenpox, you mean?









Chickenpox: Exposing Children a Bad Idea


Parents used to hold “pox parties” to expose kids, but experts say there’s no reason to do that with today’s effective vaccine.




www.healthline.com







> I think that was the idea of the uk. Seems we most of us will get it. With enough ventilators it should be safe enough. But if 5 kids get it
> Then like 30 will get it in two days.




It was a dumb and dangerous strategy, they abandoned it: 










I’m an epidemiologist. When I heard about Britain’s ‘herd immunity’ coronavirus plan, I thought it was satire | William Hanage


Vulnerable people should not be exposed to Covid-19 right now in the service of a hypothetical future, says William Hanage, a professor of the evolution and epidemiology of infectious disease at Harvard




www.theguardian.com


----------



## InLight-Tone

The governor of California just estimated that in the next 2 months over half of California will be infected...:
More than half of Californians could be infected by coronavirus in 2 months, Newsom projects


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Here's a reason to be _cautiously_ optimistic.

CNN: "Good chance" you can't become reinfected once you’ve had coronavirus.

Here's what Dr. Anthony Fauci, the director of the US National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said:


> "There is no design study that has proven that you are 'protected' but, if this virus -- and I have every reason to believe that it will -- acts like any other virus that we have had any experience with, once you get infected, and recover from that infection, your body will mount a response that will protect you from reexposure and rechallenge with that exact virus."




_If_ that's true, you can start to imagine a growing population of people who have the coronavirus, recover, and are immune (at least until it mutates). Without having to wait the 12-18 months for a vaccine.


----------



## dzilizzi

My dad is in assisted living and they've blocked all visitors except as needed for medical assistance. They are delivering meals daily by mask wearing aides. And my dad who has slight dementia at 90, keeps asking my sister to come and iron some shirts for him. She's an ER um ED nurse, whose kids are all sick so she refuses to visit him. 

Unfortunately, she the only one who lives close enough. And I'm not sure if ironing shirts constitutes a medical assistance need. We've been texting him.


----------



## Sears Poncho

InLight-Tone said:


> The governor of California just estimated that in the next 2 months over half of California will be infected...:
> More than half of Californians could be infected by coronavirus in 2 months, Newsom projects



Italy has 60 million people and 41K cases.
California has 40 million people. The article suggests 25 mil could be infected.

This is either seriously sensationalistic on their part, or we are the most incompetent country in the history of mankind... which is not to be ruled out. 

Consider this: If populations were the same, then California would have 1,000x the infection rate. Granted that there are tons of variables, what's been reported, what hasn't, on and on.... but still.

These are numbers that most people cannot possible comprehend or figure out. Ohio predicts 100K. It's 1/4th the size of California, so 400K to 25 million. Makes no sense.


----------



## Sears Poncho

dzilizzi said:


> My dad is in assisted living and they've blocked all visitors except as needed for medical assistance. They are delivering meals daily by mask wearing aides. And my dad who has slight dementia at 90, keeps asking my sister to come and iron some shirts for him. She's an ER um ED nurse, whose kids are all sick so she refuses to visit him.


My best to you and to your dad. This is just so sad to read. My dad passed in July at 87. He has slight dementia and would be acting the same. He died from a fall. I can't fathom how tough it would be for all if he was still alive during this. Hang in there.


----------



## dzilizzi

Sears Poncho said:


> Italy has 60 million people and 41K cases.
> California has 40 million people. The article suggests 25 mil could be infected.
> 
> This is either seriously sensationalistic on their part, or we are the most incompetent country in the history of mankind... which is not to be ruled out.
> 
> Consider this: If populations were the same, then California would have 1,000x the infection rate. Granted that there are tons of variables, what's been reported, what hasn't, on and on.... but still.
> 
> These are numbers that most people cannot possible comprehend or figure out. Ohio predicts 100K. It's 1/4th the size of California, so 400K to 25 million. Makes no sense.


Most of California's population is in very small areas. There are families that share very small houses and apartments in these regions. They say if one person gets sick to isolate them. But you can't when you have 8 people sharing a small one or two bedroom apartment. So they all get sick. It will probably hit the poor way worse than the rich. Then you have large areas with no people. I live on the edge of that.


----------



## Sears Poncho

dzilizzi said:


> Most of California's population is in very small areas. There are families that share very small houses and apartments in these regions. They say if one person gets sick to isolate them. But you can't when you have 8 people sharing a small one or two bedroom apartment. So they all get sick. It will probably hit the poor way worse than the rich. Then you have large areas with no people. I live on the edge of that.


Ohio is pretty similar, which is why I question the disparity between the 2 as far as predictions. We also have lots of poverty and drug problems, lots of opioid problems. I live in NE Ohio (Cleveland/Akron). The southeast part of the state is like a different state/country. Rural and poor with a massive opioid problem, I really feel for them.


----------



## Dewdman42

Sears Poncho said:


> Italy has 60 million people and 41K cases.
> California has 40 million people. The article suggests 25 mil could be infected.
> 
> This is either seriously sensationalistic on their part, or we are the most incompetent country in the history of mankind... which is not to be ruled out.
> 
> Consider this: If populations were the same, then California would have 1,000x the infection rate. Granted that there are tons of variables, what's been reported, what hasn't, on and on.... but still.
> 
> These are numbers that most people cannot possible comprehend or figure out. Ohio predicts 100K. It's 1/4th the size of California, so 400K to 25 million. Makes no sense.



First, these numbers are only estimates based on models...and there are lots of different people using models of their own and publishing their opinion on the matter. So I guess believe who you want to believe.

Second. What we see in Italy right now is not the end number. That is current number and its still growing...exponentially. They will end up with way more then 40k infected when the smoke clears. The smoke won't clear until the vaccine comes out in 18 months. A lot can happen between now and then, including secondary waves of infection. At this point, Italy does not show any indication of containment. We'll know they contained it when the rate starts going down. Its still going up.

In my view Italy will for sure end up having hundreds of thousands of infections (or more) as of the current state of containment. Every week that goes by without containment, double it. I agree 25million must be worst case scenario, but then again..(see below)

California will probably be about the same as italy. In my view USA is just as far behind the curve as Italy has been and as it starts to accelerate here, people will freak out like Italy and finally act to contain it. But we shall see whether we have acted in some way faster then Italy has. What happens in UK, Germany and France in the next 2 weeks will be possibly a better indicator for USA expectations.

Perhaps the CA governor is throwing out scary worst case numbers like 25million because he's trying to get Californians to take this seriously and socially distance themselves. Its not a completely made up number. I have heard numerous experts say that the infection rate could be 50-75% of the population if its not contained or even that it can't really be completely contained, it can only be slowed down so that we don't have a hospital spike..and that the truth is, between now and 18 months from now....a high percentage of the population are going to get it. Many people are still hoping that perhaps we got a little bit of a head start on Italy...blocking the flights from China. Maybe a week or two to try to get early containment. But my observation as I look around the country and in my own neighborhood is that way too many americans did not take this seriously enough and we have missed that window of opportunity, and we're just a few weeks behind UK/France/Germany.

But we'll see. We can still hope for a miraculous outcome at this point.


----------



## Patrick.K

dzilizzi said:


> I think Mickey Mouse might make a better president.


Oui, mais surtout pas Donald (il y en a déjà un), et non plus Oncle Picsous !.


----------



## Patrick.K

Meanwhile, Spitfire Audio Continues the Business ... Announcement by Ólafur Arnalds Stratus— Available To Pre-order...!
I feel empty, I do not have the spirit with the new library ... that seems to me so derisory, yes I know, the life continues, but how and for how much longer, especially when I see
the misery and the worry which settle day after day, icluding in the most powerful country in the world, there, I speak of the United States of America!


----------



## Alex Fraser

2 weeks isolation begins today for me and the family - inc 2 kids and a baby. Government advice and all that. I can't help thinking that here in the UK we're not quite taking this seriously enough. Still, at least we have the daily "Boris Briefing"..


----------



## gsilbers

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Here's a reason to be _cautiously_ optimistic.
> 
> CNN: "Good chance" you can't become reinfected once you’ve had coronavirus.
> 
> Here's what Dr. Anthony Fauci, the director of the US National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said:
> 
> 
> 
> _If_ that's true, you can start to imagine a growing population of people who have the coronavirus, recover, and are immune (at least until it mutates). Without having to wait the 12-18 months for a vaccine.




from what i read it would have to be both, poeple that got inmmunity AND vaccines to create enough of a herd immunity.


----------



## Synetos

We have hunkered down (Minnesota, US) and stocked up on food so we can actually do as the President requested...STAY HOME!

Since I had to cancel all my planned studio sessions with other living humans, I have taken the time to do a major re-arrange of my setup. Nothing I "had" to do, but lot's of stuff I wanted to do for some time. 

A week ago I ordered parts to build a nice new DAW/VST host. I have since cancelled that and decided it wasn't wise to blow through a bunch of cash when who knows how long, or how bad this will be. Plus, already lost many years of savings in a week with the stock market crash. 

Honestly, I am on spin cycle, mentally, at times. However, my Christian faith has helped me resolve most of that when fear starts ramping up. It's good to remember I am not in control of anything...and the sun will shine again.

I am also going to take the time to maybe learn something new...maybe lot's of somethings new. 

Best of luck to all!


----------



## Synetos

Dewdman42 said:


> my observation as I look around the country and in my own neighborhood is that way too many americans did not take this seriously enough and we have missed that window of opportunity, and we're just a few weeks behind UK/France/Germany.
> 
> But we'll see. We can still hope for a miraculous outcome at this point.


Yup. So many just can seem to wake up. Even had conflict with relatives who chose to fly to AZ, didnt want to cancel a birthday party, etc. So, since I can see how bad it will probably get, I am going out of my way to stay isolated...however long that is.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

wst3 said:


> I've watched people go bat-shit crazy over the dumbest things. I've watched people assume they are entitled to special treatment. And if I hear one more uneducated person explain probability (incorrectly, and the word is exponential) or explain that the flu kills more people (quantity and rate are two very different means of measurement) or anything else about which they have no friggin clue I am going to scream.



I am also baffled at the stupidity, I actually know losers that think this is conspiracy. Times like these bring all the bottom feeders to the surface, and it's hard to believe the behaviours of these individuals (as Humans). There are also a lot of people making a joke out of the situation, but the reality is, there's nothing funny about what's unfolding. We will get through this, but mitigation is the key, and that's what these people don't comprehend.


----------



## Patrick.K

Alex Fraser said:


> 2 weeks isolation begins today for me and the family - inc 2 kids and a baby. Government advice and all that. I can't help thinking that here in the UK we're not quite taking this seriously enough. Still, at least we have the daily "Boris Briefing"..



As for us in France, we have been confined for almost a week, and the situation will harden a lot, because far too many people abuse, and lack dicipline and good citizenship. Coasts, beaches and nautical activities are prohibited, including included all the parks, places of walk and so on. The police begins to use "drones" equipped with loudspeaker to track down the unruly!. It is the consequence of individualism and selfishness ...
In any case, I wish you good luck with your family, and I know that with children, it is not easy.
Take care of yourself.


----------



## mikeh-375

Alex Fraser said:


> 2 weeks isolation begins today for me and the family - inc 2 kids and a baby. Government advice and all that. I can't help thinking that here in the UK we're not quite taking this seriously enough. Still, at least we have the daily "Boris Briefing"..



Good luck Alex. Apparently some fuckers posed as virus testers and knocked on an OAP's door. They where thieves, let's hope Boris authorises deadly force on the likes of them when the guys and gals with tanks roll in.


----------



## MauroPantin

Full lockdown in effect here, at least until March 31st. No going out unless for groceries or meds. 2 years jail time for violating it. And work has stopped for the most part. 

So... Time to brush up on some skills, some counterpoint, maybe even a mockup or two. Maybe even a video game? Been wanting to play Jedi Fallen Order. Make lemonade and all that.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

MauroPantin said:


> Full lockdown in effect here, at least until March 31st. No going out unless for groceries or meds. 2 years jail time for violating it. And work has stopped for the most part.


Where are you Mauro?


----------



## MauroPantin

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Where are you Mauro?



I'm in Buenos Aires, Argentina.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

gsilbers said:


> from what i read it would have to be both, poeple that got inmmunity AND vaccines to create enough of a herd immunity.


I haven't read up on herd immunity, so I can't really comment on that either way.

I'm only pointing out that _maybe_--if what Dr Fauci says turns out to be right--folks who are sick, and make a full recovery, might have a silver lining: being immune to reinfection. There are a lot of essential things, like keeping the supply chain and delivery of food, medicine, soaps/antibacterials. Having some immune people could help.

We still don't know, but there's reason to be cautiously optimistic.


----------



## Celestial Aeon

We as a society and species have one problem - we don't have a really long term plan that would take into account global level catastrophies. For example we know for sure that some day huge meteorite will hit us and some day Yellowstone supervolcano will erupt etc. It's inevitable and many things that matter right now until that moment will become instantly totally pointless and meaningless for those people who are here then.

In this perspective I respect what Elon Musk is doing. It's clear that as long as we stay planetary species we really in a very concrete way don't have a long term future at all. In the end it's always a bigger scale battle against entropy and the whole Universe basically. For that we need a systemic plan that focuses on something else than competing which each other for same limited resources and who gets what. Mainly science and co-operation on global scale.


----------



## Alex Fraser

Cheers guys. Not to bad for myself as I spend all day working from home anyway. But my eldest daughter in all likelihood had her last primary school day today. Summer trips, exams gone just like that. Small potatoes I know compared to some of the wider world. "Interesting" times ahead.


----------



## dzilizzi

California's governor issued a lock down order last night, saying something like police can arrest people who are out and about, then backtracked on it. My husband was freaking out a bit because he was worried he would get arrested going to pick up his meds this morning. I told him they wouldn't arrest people for picking up medicine or food. That would be stupid. And then they have to let people that work in pharmacies and grocery stores go to work. And delivery people to deliver food so there aren't people in lines waiting. 

Obviously, the governor realized the same thing and changed it to more of a suggestion than order last night. 

Now having said this, I was at the vets yesterday. Had to get my male cat fixed. Had the appointment for a while. We sat in our cars and called to check in. They called us from the door when it was our turn. One customer at a time. Clean between customers. Sanitizer on the desk.

While I'm sitting there waiting I see a bunch of people running by and realize the gym at the end was open and there were people in there. Not a lot, but still more than a couple.


----------



## gsilbers

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I haven't read up on herd immunity, so I can't really comment on that either way.
> 
> I'm only pointing out that _maybe_--if what Dr Fauci says turns out to be right--folks who are sick, and make a full recovery, might have a silver lining: being immune to reinfection. There are a lot of essential things, like keeping the supply chain and delivery of food, medicine, soaps/antibacterials. Having some immune people could help.
> 
> We still don't know, but there's reason to be cautiously optimistic.




true. the article i read mentioned things like wearing batches or wristband for those who got over it so they can work at nursing facilities or at hospitals. until a vaccine is available. 

and from what we've seen in the news, we might have to rely on spring breakers to restock stuff :/


----------



## gsilbers

dzilizzi said:


> California's governor issued a lock down order last night, saying something like police can arrest people who are out and about, then backtracked on it. My husband was freaking out a bit because he was worried he would get arrested going to pick up his meds this morning. I told him they wouldn't arrest people for picking up medicine or food. That would be stupid. And then they have to let people that work in pharmacies and grocery stores go to work. And delivery people to deliver food so there aren't people in lines waiting.
> 
> Obviously, the governor realized the same thing and changed it to more of a suggestion than order last night.
> 
> Now having said this, I was at the vets yesterday. Had to get my male cat fixed. Had the appointment for a while. We sat in our cars and called to check in. They called us from the door when it was our turn. One customer at a time. Clean between customers. Sanitizer on the desk.
> 
> While I'm sitting there waiting I see a bunch of people running by and realize the gym at the end was open and there were people in there. Not a lot, but still more than a couple.



since its a "free" country, its hard to force poeple to stay in like china did. and many are worried about paying their bills.. and also many are young and brushing it off. i think thats why the governor wanted to send a strogn message so young adult can understand its serious and not be at gyms or small business understand its serious.


----------



## gsilbers

youngpokie said:


> He's predicting on Twitter close to zero new cases by end of April




in warm weather the flu and other corona viruses lower the spread. 
but everyone is still unsure in this case.


----------



## dzilizzi

gsilbers said:


> since its a "free" country, its hard to force poeple to stay in like china did. and many are worried about paying their bills.. and also many are young and brushing it off. i think thats why the governor wanted to send a strogn message so young adult can understand its serious and not be at gyms or small business understand its serious.


I agree with his message. I wish they could stop people from congregating unnecessarily.


----------



## gsilbers

hopefully a few positive things come out of this. 

everyone in the scietific world is trying with their joint effort to develop a vaccine, a cure or products to help with this. even developing "blank" vaccines that will work for any new future virus. 
plus figuring out how to change supply chains to develop prodcuts needed for specific issues. resporators, masks, etc. 


during wars poeple had to learn and figure out supply chain and money issues. now thats all interconnected, and most poeples jobs at stacks, maybe now countries will start saving more. 
and have future plans on not only saving big business but also the workers. 

figuring out who to trust and proper statistical figures. seems the mortality rate went from 0.5% to 20%
and anything in between. many are freaked out and als many dont seem to care.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

dzilizzi said:


> While I'm sitting there waiting I see a bunch of people running by and realize the gym at the end was open and there were people in there. Not a lot, but still more than a couple.



Dopes. Here in Calgary, two pubs "secretly" opened on St. Patrick's day, hoping to cash in. They were immediately shut down thanks to public outrage. That was a Darwin Award right there!


----------



## gsilbers

dzilizzi said:


> I agree with his message. I wish they could stop people from congregating unnecessarily.



thats why NYC was asking for military to come in. its really hard to tell a free society to stay indoors against their will. your example sound obvious but for others seems like an abuse of power. there is one or two generations of americans who nevered lived something like that. 

having lived from several military uprisings in my home country, i can attest how not fun this is.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

gsilbers said:


> thats why NYC was asking for military to come in.


NYC is not using the military to keep people in their homes.


----------



## gsilbers

Land of Missing Parts said:


> NYC is not using the military to keep people in their homes.


oh , its from this








De Blasio pleads with Trump for military aid amid 'staggering' spike in coronavirus cases


“The fate of New York City rests in the hands of one man. He is a New Yorker. And right now, he is betraying the city he comes from,” de Blasio said.




www.politico.com


----------



## dzilizzi

Wolfie2112 said:


> Dopes. Here in Calgary, two pubs "secretly" opened on St. Patrick's day, hoping to cash in. They were immediately shut down thanks to public outrage. That was a Darwin Award right there!


What? You mean all that alcohol they were planning on serving wouldn't kill the virus? Sigh. What is the world coming to when you can't get drunk with your friends? *insert sarcastic smiley here*


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

gsilbers said:


> oh , its from this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> De Blasio pleads with Trump for military aid amid 'staggering' spike in coronavirus cases
> 
> 
> “The fate of New York City rests in the hands of one man. He is a New Yorker. And right now, he is betraying the city he comes from,” de Blasio said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politico.com


Mayor De Blasio is pleading for military medical supplies. Masks, gown, gloves, ventilators. NYC is not using the military to keep people in their homes.


----------



## Ben H

DANIELE said:


> I live in Italy and actually the situation is very serious.



I am so sorry. We have reports of what is going on over there and it is absolutely heartbreaking. Thoughts and prayers to you, your family, loved ones, and your country.


----------



## youngpokie

gsilbers said:


> in warm weather the flu and other corona viruses lower the spread.
> but everyone is still unsure in this case.



It's hard to know who to trust. Imperial College says it's exponential and it's millions. The NY Times says the real death rate in Wuhan was less than half what was claimed at the time. NBC News experts said we'll overwhelm the US hospital capacity in 10 days - today is Day 10. The multiple experts online tell me we're 12 days or so behind Italy, but the death rate numbers seem to be going in opposite directions so far, ours dropping while theirs is growing. And then, there's politics with everyone trying to run ahead of the inevitable political blame game that's already started.

And none of this is new or hasn't happened before. I think that's the reason people behave the way they do.


----------



## dzilizzi

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Mayor De Blasio is pleading for military medical supplies. Masks, gown, gloves, ventilators. NYC is not using the military to keep people in their homes.


Well, that is not fair to the rest of the country if they get all the supplies.


----------



## ptram

Sears Poncho said:


> Italy has 60 million people and 41K cases.
> California has 40 million people. The article suggests 25 mil could be infected.


Those 41K cases are diagnosed, because symptoms suggested to do so. Infected are projected to be many more, but they may exhibit weak symptoms, or no symptoms at all.

Paolo


----------



## JohnG

I've been getting scientific information from Dr. Fauci and Johns Hopkins, a university in the USA that is famous for its medical school. Many politicians and even reputable journalists are garbling the scientific information, and even the legal information by using words like "lockdown." In some places there is no legal authority actually to force people to stay home. In others, there is.

Johns Hopkins provides a daily update, links on prevention, and other helpful, science-based data.

Link is here:









Coronavirus Information







hub.jhu.edu


----------



## dzilizzi

ptram said:


> Those 41K cases are diagnosed, because symptoms suggested to do so. Infected are projected to be many more, but they may exhibit weak symptoms, or no symptoms at all.
> 
> Paolo


This is the problem with telling people not to come in if they aren't really sick. They can't get actual numbers. It may be far worse. Or it may not. There is no way to tell.

edited because I can't type well.....


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

youngpokie said:


> It's hard to know who to trust.


Right now I'm bullish on _uncertainty_, which for me means keeping in mind a wider margin for error with statistics like you've mentioned.


----------



## JohnG

Part of the reason for the very sad situation in Italy is the age of the population. I read that only Japan has a higher average age / complement of older people. As one gets over 60, 70, 80 the expected outcomes worsen.

Guardian UK article, which is out of date on figures, as it's from 3d March, but does provide some information: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/03/italy-elderly-population-coronavirus-risk-covid-19


----------



## Ben H

Rob said:


> I live in what is now the worst place in Italy, the town of Brescia. Here, virus is killing from 70 to 80 people a day, things look rather scary. Me and my wife stay home and I only go out to buy some food and other necessary things... it's been nice to know you all



Take care.


----------



## dcoscina

turns out I was one of a select group in our music store that was retained in order to help with online orders and customer inquiries. Weekly hours have been reduced but still better than EI bad I been laid off so I’m thankful. Glad my work values what I bring to the table. It helps that I have the highest sales numbers in keys too.


----------



## Sears Poncho

ptram said:


> Those 41K cases are diagnosed, because symptoms suggested to do so. Infected are projected to be many more, but they may exhibit weak symptoms, or no symptoms at all.
> 
> Paolo



I understand that. I was pointing out the enormous and ridiculous disparity between the predictions. I'm a numbers nerd. Here's an example:

"How old do you think that woman is?"
"She looks about 35".
"Wrong, she's 28,000". 



See? If Italy currently has 41K, then that would be 33,000,000 in California (prediction terms). It would be pointless for California to even fight it if the number was 25,000,0000. When one writes out the zeros, it looks a little different. If Italy has 41K, it would have to be over 800x more to equal California's prediction.

"Hey Joe, you put on a few pounds. What are you, about 250 pounds now"?
"Actually, I'm 200,000".

"I heard that Spitfire Brass is on sale for $170".
"Wrong, it's actually $136,000".


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Sears Poncho said:


> I understand that. I was pointing out the enormous and ridiculous disparity between the predictions. I'm a numbers nerd. Here's an example:
> 
> "How old do you think that woman is?"
> "She looks about 35".
> "Wrong, she's 28,000".
> 
> 
> 
> See? If Italy currently has 41K, then that would be 33,000,000 in California (prediction terms). It would be pointless for California to even fight it if the number was 25,000,0000. When one writes out the zeros, it looks a little different. If Italy has 41K, it would have to be over 800x more to equal California's prediction.
> 
> "Hey Joe, you put on a few pounds. What are you, about 250 pounds now"?
> "Actually, I'm 200,000".
> 
> "I heard that Spitfire Brass is on sale for $170".
> "Wrong, it's actually $136,000".


I wouldn't mind if my bank made an error like that and added a few digits to my balance.


----------



## DANIELE

Ben H said:


> I am so sorry. We have reports of what is going on over there and it is absolutely heartbreaking. Thoughts and prayers to you, your family, loved ones, and your country.



Thank you so much. Our president has just announced that only the primary services will stay up and all the rest will close.

We are very scared, I'm in Tuscany so actually we are in better shape than the north but we fear it will not end so soon.


----------



## JohnG

sorry @DANIELE 

Just read a discouraging lead article in this week's The Economist.


----------



## DANIELE

JohnG said:


> sorry @DANIELE
> 
> Just read a discouraging lead article in this week's The Economist.



Thank you.


----------



## Sears Poncho

DANIELE said:


> We are very scared, I'm in Tuscany so actually we are in better shape than the north but we fear it will not end so soon.


My very best to you. Hang in there.


----------



## mikeh-375

to all the dumbfuckers out there..... very funny and terrifying in one short film.


https://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/honest-government-ad-coronavirus-flatten-the-curve/


----------



## Vin

We just had the most damaging earthquake in 140 years here in Zagreb, Croatia amidst all this Covid-19 craziness...fucking hell. When it rains, it pours...


----------



## Vin

DANIELE said:


> We are very scared, I'm in Tuscany so actually we are in better shape than the north but we fear it will not end so soon.



Stay strong guys, we're all thinking of you.


----------



## mikeh-375

Vin said:


> Stay strong guys, we're all thinking of you.



I second that....🇮🇹


----------



## DANIELE

Thank you all for your kind words.


----------



## Patrick.K

I wish a lot of courage to our dear Italian neighbors, the same situation will unfortunately happen in France too. The authorities are tightening the screw here more and more.
In the event of non-compliance with confinement, the fines range up to 1,500 and 3,700 euros and 6 months in prison.
More and more municipalities are adopting the "curfew", that means a total ban on going out between 8 p.m. and 6 a.m.
It will make the unruly reflect !.
A doctor friend told me that it will last several months.
Courage, we're going to win this war.


----------



## robh

Two of my cousins had a friend die from Covid-19 just the other day. He was 51. (This is in Ontario, Canada.)
A bank teller in my town has been tested and confirmed to have the virus. The bank has been temporarily shut down. A friend has been quarantined after having had contact with the teller.
I work as part-time maintenance in a retirement home, so I have to be extra diligent with the self-isolation (very easy for this extreme introvert!), hand washing, temperature monitoring, etc. The producer I do keyboards for on has had some session cancellations, but in a way, he's relieved because now he can catch up on work projects he's way behind in. My work for him is business as usual since I have always done my keyboard parts from home.


----------



## Patrick.K

robh said:


> Two of my cousins had a friend die from Covid-19 just the other day. He was 51. (This is in Ontario, Canada.)
> A bank teller in my town has been tested and confirmed to have the virus. The bank has been temporarily shut down. A friend has been quarantined after having had contact with the teller.
> I work as part-time maintenance in a retirement home, so I have to be extra diligent with the self-isolation (very easy for this extreme introvert!), hand washing, temperature monitoring, etc. The producer I do keyboards for on has had some session cancellations, but in a way, he's relieved because now he can catch up on work projects he's way behind in. My work for him is business as usual since I have always done my keyboard parts from home.


Be careful, take care of yourself.


----------



## dzilizzi

Watching the news last night, people on the beaches playing volleyball, hanging out in groups, playing beer pong and basketball. What the heck is wrong with these people? The governor doesn't want to make it illegal for people to go out because people have to eat, get meds, check on family members, and sometimes work, depending on their jobs. But the more stupid people start acting, the closer we get to full lockdown.


----------



## Geomir

Same here! Some Greek people must have something else inside their heads instead of brains! We were warned many times that a curfew will be applied if we don't stay in our houses!

But you see the weather here is pleasant, and people love to go out in the parks, in the beaches, in the church, in their country houses, ignoring all the instructions.

So, starting tomorrow 06:00, we are under curfew (I hope this is the right word). We will need a paper (or an SMS confirmation) even to visit the super market!

All this because of all these brainless Greek people...


----------



## patrick76

dzilizzi said:


> Watching the news last night, people on the beaches playing volleyball, hanging out in groups, playing beer pong and basketball. What the heck is wrong with these people? The governor doesn't want to make it illegal for people to go out because people have to eat, get meds, check on family members, and sometimes work, depending on their jobs. But the more stupid people start acting, the closer we get to full lockdown.


It's a sad fact that there are a great deal of stupid and/or ignorant people. This mess is giving us many illustrations of this point. Sadly, they may end up hurting themselves and others.


----------



## Robo Rivard

Placido Domingo has caught the Covid-19...


----------



## Patrick.K

dzilizzi said:


> Watching the news last night, people on the beaches playing volleyball, hanging out in groups, playing beer pong and basketball. What the heck is wrong with these people? The governor doesn't want to make it illegal for people to go out because people have to eat, get meds, check on family members, and sometimes work, depending on their jobs. But the more stupid people start acting, the closer we get to full lockdown.


Yes, I saw a report on TV tonight on California and the beaches of Miami, it's crazy people are irresponsible.
Governors must take more severe measures!
I see that some Americans can be as stupid as some French! ...


----------



## cuttime

Robo Rivard said:


> Placido Domingo has caught the Covid-19...


I saw this, too. Does anyone know if he is in Spain or LA?


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Robo Rivard said:


> Placido Domingo has caught the Covid-19...


Placido Domingo should know better than to play beer pong and huff Goof Off on Miami Beach!


----------



## Sears Poncho

cuttime said:


> I saw this, too. Does anyone know if he is in Spain or LA?


Madrid.


----------



## Patrick.K

Geomir said:


> Same here! Some Greek people must have something else inside their heads instead of brains! We were warned many times that a curfew will be applied if we don't stay in our houses!
> 
> But you see the weather here is pleasant, and people love to go out in the parks, in the beaches, in the church, in their country houses, ignoring all the instructions.
> 
> So, starting tomorrow 06:00, we are under curfew (I hope this is the right word). We will need a paper (or an SMS confirmation) even to visit the super market!
> 
> All this because of all these brainless Greek people...



We have the same fools here in France. The ancient Greeks, far ahead of their time, created Democracy "δημοκρατία" which is a good thing, but sometimes the people abuse it. The Chinese regime can be effective for what we are experiencing today! ...


----------



## Dewdman42

I was just pondering this today. A modern democracy is not well suited for this particular scenario. Japan is doing ok so far though


----------



## youngpokie

Dewdman42 said:


> Japan is doing ok so far though



... I read somewhere today that the main thing they did was give everyone masks and carry on. The opposite of the rest of the world, basically, but I am not sure if this is (or a lot of things online) true


----------



## Polkasound

I had to take my cat to the ER this morning (he's doing better) and the hospital had unique system set up. No one except essential staff is allowed inside, so what they do is take your animal and then you go back to your car and wait for them to call. All consultation with the doctors and technicians is done over the phone. The receptionist put on surgical gloves just to take my cash. It was weird, but it gave me confidence that they are doing everything they can think of for the safety of the animals as well as themselves.



patrick76 said:


> It's a sad fact that there are a great deal of stupid and/or ignorant people. This mess is giving us many illustrations of this point. Sadly, they may end up hurting themselves and others.



I hate to admit this, but when I was of college age, I probably would have been doing the same thing during a pandemic. And it's not because young people feel "invincible," but because their youth and vigorous health inadvertently detaches them from the concept of mortality. It's the same phenomena that explains why young people shamelessly continue texting while driving despite the laws and statistics. The concept of mortality usually doesn't sink in until serious injury, sickness, or death touches them in real life in some way, and is no longer just on TV.


----------



## Dewdman42

youngpokie said:


> ... I read somewhere today that the main thing they did was give everyone masks and carry on. The opposite of the rest of the world, basically, but I am not sure if this is (or a lot of things online) true



i will send an enlightening video later on. Generally they have a lot of habits as a people the makes them less inclined to spread germs. Also they are a very singular culture where people tend to step in line and be careful without having to be ordered to


----------



## gsilbers

hopefully someone will ramp up the prodcution of testing kits. home testing kits that can be bought easily online or at stores.
somehting like a pregnency test where you can do one each day or two.
seems in south korea doing a lot of testing has worked so far.
itll be much easier to get the nay sayers on board. even if they think its hyped news, if they have the testes easily available and test positive they can then feel like its ok to to quarantine.
and IF we are going to get to a somewhat normal life having a lot of available and fast testing kit will at least help poeple be less freaked out and go to work for those who dont have options for work at home.
If not, i dont see this getting any easier until a vaccine arrives in 18+ months


----------



## Dewdman42

Our best hope at the moment is the malaria drugs


----------



## Patrick.K

Polkasound said:


> I hate to admit this, but when I was of college age, I probably would have been doing the same thing during a pandemic. And it's not because young people feel "invincible," but because their youth and vigorous health inadvertently detaches them from the concept of mortality. It's the same phenomena that explains why young people shamelessly continue texting while driving despite the laws and statistics. The concept of mortality usually doesn't sink in until serious injury, sickness, or death touches them in real life in some way, and is no longer just on TV.


This is absolutely true, but I must be an exception because at the age of university I was not as stupid, but it is true that the internet and smartphones did not exist, it would have been difficult to make a phone call while driving, or the telephone line would have ripped off the phone cab !.


----------



## Geomir

Patrick9152 said:


> We have the same fools here in France. The ancient Greeks, far ahead of their time, created Democracy "δημοκρατία" which is a good thing, but sometimes the people abuse it. The Chinese regime can be effective for what we are experiencing today! ...


I agree! We could totally use more DISCIPLE these days!

EDIT: Cool! You wrote the word δημοκρατία perfectly!


----------



## mohsohsenshi

God, please help Italy! Many passed away and suffered...


----------



## Patrick.K

Geomir said:


> I agree! We could totally use more DISCIPLE these days!
> 
> EDIT: Cool! You wrote the word δημοκρατία perfectly!





Geomir said:


> I agree! We could totally use more DISCIPLE these days!
> 
> EDIT: Cool! You wrote the word δημοκρατία perfectly!


Thank's,

Yes, I love Greece and its culture which is incredibly rich, and the landscapes especially the islands and these colors are magnificent. And do not forget philosophers, atronomes and mathematicians who would be horrified to see how our civilization has evolved !.
And to talk a little about music, I'm a big fan of Vangelis Papathanassíou, I often went to one of his collaborators (Frédérik Rousseau) who sold synths and worked with him in his studio in Paris.


----------



## Dewdman42

youngpokie said:


> ... I read somewhere today that the main thing they did was give everyone masks and carry on. The opposite of the rest of the world, basically, but I am not sure if this is (or a lot of things online) true


----------



## Patrick.K

mohsohsenshi said:


> God, please help Italy! Many passed away and suffered...


Our Italian cousins don't deserve to.
A great French artist had said: "Italians are French people in a good mood", that's why we feel so close to their pain.


----------



## Vik

Here's a comment to the situation in Italy:








Why have so many coronavirus patients died in Italy?


The country's high death toll is due to an ageing population, overstretched health system and the way fatalities are reported




www.telegraph.co.uk




Italy also have an old culture where people great each other by kissing each other on both cheeks, and I just read about someone who lost several family members to corona lately lately, including her grandmother... she said he was so happy she gave her a kiss the night before she died - a beautiful goodbye to a grandmother. But if they even kiss each other goodnight after they see that several family members just died of corona, maybe that in itself tragically can contribute to even more people in the same family dying.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...rsey-family-kills-3-4-more-hospitals-n1163696
I really hope they can change the virus situation in Italy – that little country has far more people who died (partially) due to the corona virus than any other country.


----------



## Dewdman42

They certainly do and I'm sure some of those things are some of the reasons, but also consider that the death rate is trailing number compared to the infection rate. At any given time, the number of people infected includes people just recently infected... the ones dead may have had it a week or two before that. So in a way the death rate should be compared to whatever the overall infection number was a few weeks ago, not the one today. That's one reason USA death rate is low right now, we are just starting to ramp up.

Also in Italy what happened is that they overwhelmed the hospital system. When they did that the deathrata skyrocketed. So far, we have not overwhelmed our hospital system here. If we do, our rate is going to go up also.


----------



## Vik

Sure, but if even the death rates are misleading per country, because some countries may report someone as dead due to Corona even if s/he also had several other conditions that could have caused the death, we don't really know how many who died of Corona in that country.

From the article above: “On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity - many had two or three”. If only 12% of the reported Corona deaths are directly related to Corona, maybe 'only' 6-700 people may actually have died of Corona there. 
Other countries may also present their numbers in a somehow misleading way, and the criterions for selecting who to test for Corona differs from country to country. In general, I still think that it's hard to make any firm conclusions based on the way the numbers for each country are presented.


----------



## Dewdman42

I think you may have a completely false impression of who is dying. These are not necessarily people that were going to die anyway. A few days ago a 35 year old man died in USA who had gone to disneyworld for vacation. He started to develop a cough and flew home to LAX two days later, sick on the plane, he said he went straight to the ER and was diagnosed with Covid. A week later was in the hospital and died a day or two later. he was 35. The only underlying condition was that as a kid, he had asthma; but grew out of it. You know how many people had asthma as a kid?










34-Year-Old CA Man Dead of Coronavirus, Recently Visited Disney World


A 34-year-old man from Glendora, CA has passed away from coronavirus.




www.tmz.com





They were not going to die anyway


----------



## Dewdman42

Another family just lost 4 of their family members after having a family dinner where someone had it and spread it around. 4 dead and 3 still in critical condition:









Coronavirus: Four members of New Jersey family die


The death of Grace Fusco and three of her adult children is an "unbearable tragedy", relatives say.



www.bbc.com





Do you think they were going to die anyway?


----------



## dzilizzi

gsilbers said:


> hopefully someone will ramp up the prodcution of testing kits. home testing kits that can be bought easily online or at stores.
> somehting like a pregnency test where you can do one each day or two.
> seems in south korea doing a lot of testing has worked so far.
> itll be much easier to get the nay sayers on board. even if they think its hyped news, if they have the testes easily available and test positive they can then feel like its ok to to quarantine.
> and IF we are going to get to a somewhat normal life having a lot of available and fast testing kit will at least help poeple be less freaked out and go to work for those who dont have options for work at home.
> If not, i dont see this getting any easier until a vaccine arrives in 18+ months


The FDA just approved a test kit that takes 45 minutes to give a result. It seems there isn't an instant test yet. But still better than sending to the CDC, which I heard was the original requirement.


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## Dewdman42

The test kits will be good, but most people don't need them. just stay home. 

POTUS just told everyone on today's briefing that out of the 250k tests that have been done, they have observed about a 10% hit rate of actually having it, so now they are recommending you only take the test if you are actually in the hospital with serious symptoms. 

Partly that is because there aren't enough supplies. But I think a lot of people are wanting an excuse to wander around and they are hoping that if we have test kits people will find out who has it and we can tell THEM to stay home while the rest of us party on! hehe. ok...but for now just stay home...


----------



## Vik

There are of course massive amounts of people who wouldn't have died anyway, Dewdman, and I'm all for doing whatever we can to stop all this - of course. I'm just saying, like many others, that the info that is being presented should be more complete.


----------



## Dewdman42

It can't be more complete. It is already all the data there is. That's why everyone should just stay home right now.


----------



## germancomponist

What a joke!!!!!!!! Please google yourself!


----------



## gsilbers

Dewdman42 said:


> The test kids will be good, but most people don't need them. just stay home.
> 
> POTUS just told everyone on today's briefing that out of the 250k tests that have been done, they have observed about a 10% hit rate of actually having it, so now they are recommending you only take the test if you are actually in the hospital with serious symptoms.
> 
> Partly that is because there aren't enough supplies. But I think a lot of people are wanting an excuse to wander around and they are hoping that if we have test kits people will find out who has it and we can tell THEM to stay home while the rest of us party on! hehe. ok...but for now just stay home...



stay home until when? 

when can dentists, restaurants, travel, busses, stocking food in supermarket workers, warehouse employees and millios of other poeples can go out? until Feb 2021? 
Its a a big chunk of our economy. sure, we all need to be safe first, but after 3 month of about 30% of our workforce not working... i dont think itll work out. 

if everyone gets kits and can get it easily be available and there is masks for eveyone to use even witout symptoms then that should give it time to at least live a semi normal life like in japan.


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## Dewdman42

gsilbers said:


> stay home until when?
> 
> when can dentists, restaurants, travel, busses, stocking food in supermarket workers, warehouse employees and millios of other poeples can go out? until Feb 2021?
> Its a a big chunk of our economy. sure, we all need to be safe first, but after 3 month of about 30% of our workforce not working... i dont think itll work out.
> 
> if everyone gets kits and can get it easily be available and there is masks for eveyone to use even witout symptoms then that should give it time to at least live a semi normal life like in japan.



This is a problem we are going to face. All the people that are refusing to stay home right now are only elongating how long it will take to get this under control.

We will all have to stay home until the risk goes down, simple as that. Eventually the government will enforce it. 

I do not think we will ever reach the peace and tranquility Japan has now because Americans are just too darn liberty-oriented and stubborn. Unless they come out with a malaria remedy to save us, I think its going to get very very bad here. So better get used to it folks. This is going to be the new normal for a while.

yea..eventually...if we can get the curve to level off....then not everyone will need to be on complete lockdown, but we are going to be practicing some form of social distancing for at least a year. That is the new normal. Even now under extreme pressure, look around, americans aren't capable of social distancing. When things are a bit less risky because there aren't thousands of new cases popping up every day...then maybe we can get to that point that Japan is out now, but they were able to contain it, we were not. We are now in so called "mitigation". We missed our opportunity contain it.

The test kits will not make any difference for at least a few months IMHO. 

They are useful for monitoring health care workers and essential workers. How to decide who should be hospitalized. Everyone else just needs to shut up and stay home.


----------



## Vik

Dewdman42 said:


> It can't be more complete. It is already all the data there is.


I have seen examples of articles which try to question if the policy of closing schools etc is good, 'backed up' by numbers showing that one country (#1) with closed schools have more infected people than another country (#2) without closed schools, totally ignoring that because country #1 (with closed schools) have tested a _much_ higher percentage of the population than country # 2... and other misleading conclusions.

I have yet to see one single overview with a long list of countries – a list that is being continuously updated – which shows relevant info for each of these countries, like the rate between number of tested people and the number of infected people. Many articles talk about how many who are infected in this or that country, without having seen anything about how many that has been tested in each of these countries, and try to base conclusions based on that.


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## Dewdman42

Everything you are talking about is speculation and theory. We will not have the data you seek until years from now in retrospect. Perhaps the next pandemic can be handled better.


----------



## Vik

The data I talk about is already to a large extent available, and would be even more available if it was all collected in one list, and was being updated all the time. I'm only talking about how already available info is being presented.


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## Dewdman42

with all due respect, no it is not. We will not be able to draw any conclusions until we can observe the cause and effect in retrospect. Any other theories about what might happen are pure speculation...and nobody wants to gamble with the lives of other people by applying their theories about what they think will happen. We are learning more and more every day as this goes on, but there is new information coming out daily...many things we do we will find out later it was the wrong thing to do, etc.. When its all done, we will analyze all that was done and can make much better theories about how when things like closing the schools make sense.

At this point, the best action for every person is to follow the guidance from their leaders and please stay home.


----------



## InLight-Tone

Meanwhile, NASA is reporting that the skies over China and Italy are showing clearing from all the man made pollution, fish have returned to the canals etc. What/Whos a virus? Perhaps WE ALL should stay home permanently...


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## Dewdman42

Is that true? That would indicate they are not going back to work and production as much as we have been led to believe.


----------



## gsilbers

Dewdman42 said:


> with all due respect, no it is not. We will not be able to draw any conclusions until we can observe the cause and effect in retrospect. Any other theories about what might happen are pure speculation...and nobody wants to gamble with the lives of other people by applying their theories about what they think will happen. We are learning more and more every day as this goes on, but there is new information coming out daily...many things we do we will find out later it was the wrong thing to do, etc.. When its all done, we will analyze all that was done and can make much better theories about how when things like closing the schools make sense.
> 
> At this point, the best action for every person is to follow the guidance from their leaders and please stay home.



here is more info about testing. 

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/coronavirus-cases-have-dropped-sharply-south-korea-whats-secret-its-success
but true. without testing then social isolation would be the norm.


----------



## Vik

Dewdman42 said:


> with all due respect, no it is not.


But you don't know which info I'm talking about – and I certainly have no theories/something I try to convince you or anyone else about, Dewdman. For the records, I agree that the main thing we need to do now is to prevent the disease from spreding by avoiding anything that increases the risk of spreading it - which mainly is about avoiding close physical contact with others. All I'm saying is that it's dangerous to make false conclusions based on missing or misinterpreted info.

This is the article I mentioned:








Svenska skolor fortsätter hålla öppet, Norge har näst högst andel smittade efter Italien


"Vi vet att skolbarn inte driver den här epidemin."




svenska.yle.fi




For those who don't read Swedish: the title says "Swedish schools keeps being open, while Norway has the highest number of infected people after Italy". I saw this shortly after it was written, when Norway had closed all schools, concerts, cinemas – Sweden hadn't. Many journalists made conclusions about how many that was affected in various countries without paying attention to (using this example) the fact that Norway (when I saw this) had tested almost three times as many as Sweden. The title above suggested that the Swedish model worked better than the Norwegian.

Sweden, with around 10 million people, had tested 0,14% of the population, Norway, with 5 million people, had tested 0.81% of the population. Sweden was listed with 1675 infected people, Norway with 1997 infected people (around when this was written). Using only the population and the number of confirmed cases as a reference, many writers come to a completely false conclusion, and readers can, as a result of this easily see the article/title above as a support for the Swedish model. But looking closer at these numbers, 11,7% of the tested Swedes were infected , and 4,6% of the tested Norwegians were infected. This suggests (if the criterions for who that was being tested were the same in these countries), that the isolation/closing down policy is a lot more efficient than the model Sweden at least had when this was written.

Looking only at the death rate for each country along with the population of each country would make more sense than ignoring the tested/infected rate. Looking at the same two countries again, as of today: 21 people have died in Sweden and 7 have died in Norway – this also suggests that the closing down/staying home etc approach is more efficient (of course it is).

But there are other parameters to look at as well. If one country tests all health workers as a main priority, so that people don't risk being infected by people who are there to help them, that may end in a too low percentage - if the idea is to get an impression of how large percent of the general population that are infected – and so on.

Anything which could prevent false theories/conlusions should be easily available. Since lots of laymen and others are trying to make conclusions anyway – and with a lot of people writing/talking about Corona all the time – why not at least _try_ to inform people in a way which prevents the generation of potentially life threatening theories; theories that some people out there will start believing in?


----------



## Dewdman42

gsilbers said:


> here is more info about testing.
> 
> https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/coronavirus-cases-have-dropped-sharply-south-korea-whats-secret-its-success
> but true. without testing then social isolation would be the norm.



At this point we are in mitigation mode. Korea caught it in "containment" phase. Same with Japan. We have missed the window for that. We can hope that in a month or two we might be able to get back to containment mode if we all lockdown now and get the infection rate under control. But its not going to be easy to get there and I don't see americans acting in a manner that will get us there.


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## Geoff Grace

I thought this was a touching video—Italians turning to music to help ease the aloneness of quarantine:



Best,

Geoff


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## Robo Rivard

My new desktop picture...


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## Sears Poncho

gsilbers said:


> stay home until when?


For me (Ohio), it's April 6 at the earliest. State is on official "can't go out except for essentials" status. Doesn't seem to have any affect on the idiot who rides his motorcycle up and down my street, as fast and as loud as possible. I still hear a lot of cars. Still a good amount of activity it seems.


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## JohnG

gsilbers said:


> sure, we all need to be safe first, but after 3 month of about 30% of our workforce not working... i dont think itll work out



I think @gsilbers put the needle on the spot.

I am no expert, but I question whether people will tolerate the economic catastrophe of even three months of quarantine, even if governments hand out enough cash

A happy ending to this depends on two questions (among many others):

*1. Whether you can get re-infected.* The 1918-1919 pandemic had two phases, the second more deadly. Even though the second 'round' was exacerbated by misguided advice to take large doses of aspirin which apparently were lethal for as many as 30% of people, it is by no means guaranteed that being exposed to COVID-19 confers immunity and / or that it won't mutate.

*2. How much economic damage people will accept*, especially if the majority of the population feels that they probably won't die from it themselves.

Based on the behaviour I've seen and read about so far, it's hard to see people just going along with financial armageddon to save strangers.

Goldman Sachs recently published research that shows something like a 6% downturn in Q1, 24% or something in Q2, and then a huge rebound in Q3 and Q4, described as a 'V-shaped' recovery. One can only hope about those later quarters, but in the mean time, will people tolerate not paying their bills for months?


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## Sears Poncho

JohnG said:


> *How much economic damage people will accept*,


A lot of people are really struggling. It's been about 11 days. 

Crime, suicide, deaths because of hospitals too full to deal with "normal" stuff. I just talked to a friend who is a social worker for a hospital- unbelievable what she's going through already. And we don't have a whole lot of infections on the books yet in this area.

I've never owned a weapon. I've never held one. When I hear about this "run on guns" (and most of it is people with 40 guns buying 50 more) I can at least understand some of it. I won't, but that's not the point. Half of America has next to nothing in the bank and lives paycheck by paycheck. It's all so messed up, has been for a long time.


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## JohnG

It's very sad.


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## Dewdman42

My Raymond James investment advisor sent me a webinar link for a webinar their east coast minds put on it. Let me summarize.

They identified 4 possible scenarios, with increasing levels of damage to society. Its not clear to me right now whether the total number of infections in each of these scenarios was for just USA or the whole world. I hope USA..if not we're in big trouble. Keep in mind this is from a financial institution, not a medical institution, though they have people involved as experts they are consulting with. And nobody has a crystal ball, but this is their estimate of our economic future based on 4 increasingly bad scenarios.

*Scenario 1 * In this scenario the virus spreading in the USA will already be slowed down in 2 weeks from now and we start by then to reopen back up things for business. Total infections under 500,000.  Turned the corner by end of April. its not clear to me what they mean by "turned the corner"... I think that means people are going back to work, even while some are still struggling with the virus in their life and some amount of social distancing will be required until we have a vaccine.

*Scenario 2*, which they feel is most likely, will result in memorial day being when we have turned the corner. Less than 1,000,000 infected.

They spent the rest of the presentation talking about what they think will happen based on the assumption that we hit scenario 2, which they feel is most likely at this point.

This scenario will end up with stock market V rebound back by the end of the year, with yes...20-30% lost earnings for the year, which may take some months to get over, but by 2021 they feel we will be going strong again and will be that V recovery you're talking about.

The end result of scenario2 should be several more years of economic growth once we get past this virus, the entire US economy was actually in a good place for that when looking at all the numbers and if we can keep within scenario 2, we will get back on track by the end of the year, though many people are going to be licking their wounds.

*Scenario 3* means more than a million infected, but still turn the corner by July 4. All summer vacation activity lost. People will avoid shopping until 3 months after the "peak" of infections. Much unemployment and recession until 4th quarter or longer. The after effects of this will be substantial.

*Scenario 4* - Total fail, we never slow down the infection and it basically spreads until we reach herd immunity. More than 100,000,000 infections and one million dead. Still dealing with the virus by labor day. Economic impact substantial, they didn't go into too much detail on this worst case scenario.


They are still watching the virus situation closely because at the first sign of the infection rating starting to flatten out, they expect the stock market to fly back up. There is a lot of money sitting in cash on the sidelines right now waiting for that. Once they see that they will all come flooding back in.

Some people will not work for a little longer then that I would guess. But basically what it comes down to is this..

In order to control it to Scenario #2 and get beyond it to recovered economy by the end of this year, we as a country(and the rest of the world too!) need to aggressively squash the spread of the virus. If we can get it under control, and hit scenario #2, it will be a rough year to be sure, but the economy will come back strong, there is a lot of money floating there waiting to do business again, and it will.

If we don't squash the virus and we end up dragging this on and on until late summer...then the economic damage will be tremendous and its quite likely that will result in perhaps a serious multi-year  recession and all that comes with it.

There is no easy answer here. We are between a rock and hard place. Right now we really need to focus on flattening the infection curve.


----------



## Dewdman42

And for those of you not in the USA, the above scenarios can probably be translated to your place on the timeline and relative population sizes with similar estimates.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Dewdman42 said:


> There is no easy answer here. We are between a rock and hard place. Right now we really need to focus on flattening the infection curve.


Isn't there just like a Night King we could take out that would stop the whole thing?


----------



## Sears Poncho

Here's what really gets me:

I think Bloomberg said he would donate 40 million to fight this. I appreciate him doing something..... but the dude is worth 61 BILLION and we're looking at doomsday shit. He's willing to give what is 50 bucks comparatively to most people. That speaks volumes about greed. Bill Gates has probably been the most philanthropic of the Richie Riches, and of course we appreciate it. But Bill baby, instead of leaving the rest in your will to various places, now would be a good time. And to be fair Bloomberg has given lots too in the past and I am not trying to downplay that, but this is something in a brand new league.

The world is facing who knows what. Bloomberg could give 60 billion for a cure, masks, medicines, all sorts of miraculous breakthroughs. That would leave him with a paltry 1 billion. OK we don't want to push, how bout 50 billion and keep a 10 spot, Mikey. 40 million? This could be catastrophic in so many ways. This could kill a lot of Bloombergs. Nope, Mike and others want to hold onto the sweet sweet money that already messed up the planet long before this.


----------



## Robo Rivard

My heart is with Italy. And thanks for your great artists!


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## JohnG

$50 million is still $50 million. And it's early days, so I wouldn't count out Gates, Bloomberg, Bezos, or Warren Buffet. All those guys have given money to charities.

I wonder if any hesitation stems from the 'leadership' we've seen so far?


----------



## InLight-Tone

It's time for a Universal Basic income and the majority working from home. The economy at all costs is a bad idea. We need to figure out what we really need, what's valuable to the human family and what's not. Most of these decisions should take the point of view of OUR relationship with Nature which is the only one that really matters. I have a personal axe list that would piss a lot of people off like fast food and most restaurants, spectator sports and so on. This virus is forcing us to examine just that, what really matters...LIFE!


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## Sears Poncho

JohnG said:


> $50 million is still $50 million.


Yes, and I did backtrack a bit and point out that they have given billions over the years.



JohnG said:


> I wonder if any hesitation stems from the 'leadership' we've seen so far?


It's late here and I won't comment as I don't want my blood pressure to spike.


----------



## dzilizzi

Sears Poncho said:


> Here's what really gets me:
> 
> I think Bloomberg said he would donate 40 million to fight this. I appreciate him doing something..... but the dude is worth 61 BILLION and we're looking at doomsday shit. He's willing to give what is 50 bucks comparatively to most people. That speaks volumes about greed. Bill Gates has probably been the most philanthropic of the Richie Riches, and of course we appreciate it. But Bill baby, instead of leaving the rest in your will to various places, now would be a good time. And to be fair Bloomberg has given lots too in the past and I am not trying to downplay that, but this is something in a brand new league.
> 
> The world is facing who knows what. Bloomberg could give 60 billion for a cure, masks, medicines, all sorts of miraculous breakthroughs. That would leave him with a paltry 1 billion. OK we don't want to push, how bout 50 billion and keep a 10 spot, Mikey. 40 million? This could be catastrophic in so many ways. This could kill a lot of Bloombergs. Nope, Mike and others want to hold onto the sweet sweet money that already messed up the planet long before this.


I'm going to guess most of Bloomberg's and Bill Gates' net worth is tied up in businesses that, if they took the money out, would kill those businesses. It sounds great to be worth that much, but mostly it is a lot of responsibility. So $40 million is probably his available cash. And, up to a point, money helps. But it doesn't make factories able to produce more in the short term. 

For example, to make more masks takes more fabric. If the fabric isn't available, they can't make the masks until it is. The money can charter a plane to ship in less time than it would take to go by boat. And money and government approval will get it through customs faster. Then you have to ramp up the factories and get workers who aren't sick, etc...

People being smart and staying in would help so much more than just money. Though if they could work out how to drop a care package of food and toilet paper to everyone so people don't have to go out, that would be a good use of money.


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## Dewdman42

Neither blumberg nor bill gates are going to solve this problem. It’s literally going to cost trillions of dollars. Way beyond what either of them could do with money. And as pointed out, their net worth is almost certainly not sitting in liquid assets. Their place in the world is not to bail people out but rather to go on creating companies that hire people in the future.

regarding masks for example, it’s not that there isnt money to pay for it. They have to find someone to actually make them.

potus could use his powers to force some factories to make that stuff, problem solved.


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## GtrString

Lol.. vaccine is developed by state funded research, not american billionaires. Its a mind game, not a money game.


----------



## Sears Poncho

dzilizzi said:


> I'm going to guess most of Bloomberg's and Bill Gates' net worth is tied up in businesses that, if they took the money out, would kill those businesses


I understand that. I'm merely reacting to the enormous disparity, some of it that is causing massive problems. I believe that Bloomberg said he spent or could spend 500 million on an election.... so it's not exactly accurate that he only has chump change available. 



Dewdman42 said:


> Their place in the world is not to bail people out but rather to go on creating companies that hire people in the future.


Well.... I guess we could/should have another thread on this subject. If we use Bloomberg as merely a moniker for a wealthy person.... The Waltons have "created" jobs that pay so shitty that we have to support the workers with our tax dollars because the jobs pay shit. And people who live in small towns in the Midwest can attest to what happens when Le Walmart comes to town- lots of mom and pop businesses are simply decimated by it. The effects of the Koch brothers have been devastating in so many ways. Maybe we should not use "Bill Gates" in the same sentence as a Walton or Koch, different animals. A little light reading on what can happen to pension funds:

Looting the Pension Funds




GtrString said:


> Lol.. vaccine is developed by state funded research, not american billionaires. Its a mind game, not a money game.


Fair enough, but it takes some bucks to educate people and attract talent. "State Funded Research"? OK. But wouldn't the "state" have a few more bucks to spend if corporations didn't use loopholes, contributed more, on and on? 

Here's an example: When Notre Dame burned, there was a few billion pledged in about 5 seconds. Keyword "pledged". No problemo. Again, some light reading with some staggering numbers in it. 

Notre Dame and billions etc.


----------



## MartinH.

A good friend and colleague of mine is one of the at-risk people and his girlfriend is working at a retirement home where they now have 2 cases suspected to be Covid-19. One is already in a hospital.




Sears Poncho said:


> Bill Gates has probably been the most philanthropic of the Richie Riches, and of course we appreciate it. But Bill baby, instead of leaving the rest in your will to various places, now would be a good time.



I don't think that's fair to him. He literally predicted this crisis and tried to get systems in place to prevent what is happening right now. But apparently it's damn hard to change the world even if you have a lot of money. This talk was uploaded 5 years ago:






InLight-Tone said:


> It's time for a Universal Basic income and the majority working from home.



I agree, it's completely inevitable anyway, because automation will replace the majority of jobs in the next few decades. Might as well start shifting to it a little sooner.


----------



## Sears Poncho

MartinH. said:


> I don't think that's fair to him. He literally predicted this crisis and tried to get systems in place to prevent what is happening right now. But apparently it's damn hard to change the world even if you have a lot of money. This talk was uploaded 5 years ago:


Fair enough, maybe we can backtrack and get on with the subject. I did backtrack and point out that Bill Gates and the Koch Bros are different animals, but lets perhaps get more on "topic" and I'm sorry I took the thread in a different direction.


----------



## JohnG

I think it's a fair topic and not off-subject, @Sears Poncho 

Plus, every time I see your poncho I chuckle.


----------



## Patrick.K

Bill Gates for Président.


----------



## Sears Poncho

Patrick9152 said:


> Bill Gates for Président.


What????????? You want that extremely bright, genius level, philanthropic family man as President??? Not me. I want a handicapped-mocking, porn-star bribing reality show moron.


----------



## youngpokie

dzilizzi said:


> The governor doesn't want to make it illegal for people to go out because people have to eat, get meds, check on family members, and sometimes work, depending on their jobs. But the more stupid people start acting, the closer we get to full lockdown.



But can any governor can make it illegal? Can the government legally imprison people in their homes, while simultaneously cutting off their source of income?


----------



## Patrick.K

MartinH. said:


> A good friend and colleague of mine is one of the at-risk people and his girlfriend is working at a retirement home where they now have 2 cases suspected to be Covid-19. One is already in a hospital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think that's fair to him. He literally predicted this crisis and tried to get systems in place to prevent what is happening right now. But apparently it's damn hard to change the world even if you have a lot of money. This talk was uploaded 5 years ago:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, it's completely inevitable anyway, because automation will replace the majority of jobs in the next few decades. Might as well start shifting to it a little sooner.



Bill Gates is really impressive.
Steve Job would he have the same vision of things? .I doubt it, but I may be wrong ?.


----------



## Patrick.K

Sears Poncho said:


> What????????? You want that extremely bright, genius level, philanthropic family man as President??? Not me. I want a handicapped-mocking, porn-star bribing reality show moron.


 Oh yes, we want the same in France.
He's a good guy, whom I've always admired, not for Microsoft, but for what he is and what he does, and which unfortunately a lot of guys don't know.
Wealth and philanthropy is so rare.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

youngpokie said:


> But can any governor can make it illegal? Can the government legally imprison people in their homes, while simultaneously cutting off their source of income?


Sometimes you have nothing but terrible options, and the situation calls for you to recognize that quickly and pursue the least bad option.

In the case of the US, the least bad option is the lockdown that happened in China. It's a _bad_ option--no question. And it's also the only thing that stops this virus (until pharmaceuticals can save the day). If the US cannot accept that, the other option is that the virus isn't contained, it runs its course, and kills millions of people.


----------



## youngpokie

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Sometimes you have nothing but terrible options, and the situation calls for you to recognize that quickly and pursue the least bad option.
> 
> In the case of the US, the least bad option is the lockdown that happened in China. It's a _bad_ option--no question--and it's also the only thing that stops this virus (until pharmaceutical can save the day).



Sorry, but I still don't understand how this option is better than focusing on the vulnerable and giving everyone else masks (even if on state-by-state basis at first).


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

youngpokie said:


> Sorry, but I still don't understand how this option is better than focusing on the vulnerable and giving everyone else masks (even if on state-by-state basis at first).


Point to a place in the world where that's working. Point to a medical professional that says this will work.


----------



## redlester

I just checked eBay for toilet roll, and have ordered some, although whether it will ever arrive is another matter.

What surprised me a little was in the categories down the left for filtering the results, one of the options was "Used"!


----------



## Patrick.K

redlester said:


> I just checked eBay for toilet roll, and have ordered some, although whether it will ever arrive is another matter.
> 
> What surprised me a little was in the categories down the left for filtering the results, one of the options was "Used"!


Stay at home and eat rice, no toilet roll needed.It's better for the planet.
Take the Chinese example, think a little : why do they have so many masks? ...


----------



## youngpokie

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Point to a place in the world where that's working. Point to a medical professional that says this will work.



Hang on. If this is about least bad option, why are we jumping to conclusion that it's the medical professionals who should decide economic policy?

There are public health, economic and civil rights consequences to this. Shouldn't all that be weighed in before life as we know it is put on hold?


----------



## dzilizzi

youngpokie said:


> But can any governor can make it illegal? Can the government legally imprison people in their homes, while simultaneously cutting off their source of income?


I believe so, if it is a state of emergency. They can do curfews and things like that. They normally do it to stop looting after a disaster - i.e. they can arrest people in found in areas they aren't supposed to be in. So they can shut down the beaches for example. Or the roads. The big problem is the don't have the manpower to really do it. And some people need to go to work. Like doctors, nurses, delivery drivers, grocery store workers, etc..., we can't survive without them.


----------



## Dewdman42

point to financial experts that know anything about how issuing face masks will work to save the day. In fact health experts say the opposite. Financial experts and the alcu know absolutely zilch about how to contain this all they can do right now is predict how this tragedy is going to impact the economy and people’s rights. Everyone is right. There is no win-win here. You can let people die and save the economy or try to save lives and pickup the economic pieces later.

part of the reason China got it under control is because when the government says jump, people do it. japan also has a culture that will tend to listen to their leaders and do as they ask, all together. Unfortunately in the west, including USA and Europe; when our leaders tell us to jump we all stand around thinking about all the reasons we shouldn’t listen to them or do as they say and we have 39 other suggestions for how we think it should be done. Thus in a situation like this democracy does not work and we are burning down.


----------



## Dewdman42

dzilizzi said:


> I believe so, if it is a state of emergency. They can do curfews and things like that. They normally do it to stop looting after a disaster - i.e. they can arrest people in found in areas they aren't supposed to be in. So they can shut down the beaches for example. Or the roads. The big problem is the don't have the manpower to really do it. And some people need to go to work. Like doctors, nurses, delivery drivers, grocery store workers, etc..., we can't survive without them.



yes they absolutely can. I think they are trying to avoid it in hopes that Americans will do it on their own


----------



## dzilizzi

Patrick9152 said:


> Bill Gates is really impressive.
> Steve Job would he have the same vision of things? .I doubt it, but I may be wrong ?.


I don't think Steve Jobs would have made a good president. Gates is much more practical. You need practical in a president. 

It's just like Obamacare. Great idea but totally impractical. Making poor people pay more than a quarter of their income for healthcare? And fining them if they can't afford it? 

I probably shouldn't start that. My work has good benefits including healthcare, so I am lucky.


----------



## youngpokie

Dewdman42 said:


> Everyone is right. There is no win-win here.



That's my point. We should be taking models, predictions etc from all these different areas and weighing them as totality of consequences before deciding on _what's the least bad option_. That hasn't happened. 



Dewdman42 said:


> yes they absolutely can. I think they are trying to avoid it in hopes that Americans will do it on their own



This explanation sounds a bit shaky to me. "in the hopes"?? 

Although perhaps I shouldn't be surprised considering how government policy on coronavirus is made...


----------



## Patrick.K

dzilizzi said:


> I don't think Steve Jobs would have made a good president. Gates is much more practical. You need practical in a president.
> 
> It's just like Obamacare. Great idea but totally impractical. Making poor people pay more than a quarter of their income for healthcare? And fining them if they can't afford it?
> 
> I probably shouldn't start that. My work has good benefits including healthcare, so I am lucky.


No, I wasn't thinking of Steve Job as president, I was just wondering if he had much the same thoughts as Bill Gates.
For the Healthcare, I too am lucky, because in France we have an excellent health system, but we still have to pay for additional insurance to be reimbursed at 100%.
People who have no money are all the same covered up, and that's good. But the problem is that many foreigners take advantage of it, and abuse it, and come to seek treatment in France, without ever paying any bills. , and it is very expensive for the community.


----------



## youngpokie

dzilizzi said:


> I believe so, if it is a state of emergency. They can do curfews and things like that. They normally do it to stop looting after a disaster - i.e. they can arrest people in found in areas they aren't supposed to be in. So they can shut down the beaches for example. Or the roads. The big problem is the don't have the manpower to really do it. And some people need to go to work. Like doctors, nurses, delivery drivers, grocery store workers, etc..., we can't survive without them.



A link in the Atlantic article sent me to read about Jacobson v Massachusetts, where the legal protections during public health emergencies were defined: 

_In affirming Massachusetts’ compulsory vaccination law, the Court established a floor of constitutional protections that consists of 4 standards: necessity, reasonable means, proportionality, and harm avoidance._

I think each of these protections can and should generate legal arguments in courts (if that case is even applicable), so that there is more clarity on police powers that are updated for the modern world.


----------



## JohnG

Dewdman42 said:


> yes they absolutely can. I think they are trying to avoid it in hopes that Americans will do it on their own



IDK @Dewdman42 -- I'm not a lawyer but I'm not sure what _legal_ authority would allow them to do it. I am not aware of anything in the US constitution or states either that actually spells out that power. 

They can try to persuade people, or use force. On the brute force side, you could argue they have the guns, but, as you know, in some parts of the USA people have quite a few themselves.

It would be nice if people listened; some people think "oh it's just old people," but then, they are people too. Moreover, people of all ages are dying and / or taking up hospital beds and respirators.

I give it six weeks before it gets very hard to control. Probably more like three.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

JohnG said:


> They can try to persuade people


We need influencers and celebrities to really step it up. And where are those algorithms, advertisements, and other invisible hands of influence that are usually trying to get me to download some app or sign up for a free trial of this-or-that?

One of the innovations that the US normally excels at is not just convincing people of what they should do, but doing so in such a way that people think they arrived at the decision completely on their own.


----------



## Vik

JohnG said:


> I give it six weeks before it gets very hard to control. Probably more like three.


Or less. There could be more than a million infected already within a week or two, unless the numbers flatten out from now on.


----------



## Sears Poncho

dzilizzi said:


> It's just like Obamacare. Great idea but totally impractical. Making poor people pay more than a quarter of their income for healthcare? And fining them if they can't afford it?


Well, that wasn't the "idea". It was the compromise, and a poor one at that. When there are 50-60 votes and a Government shutdown over something, it's probably not going to work out all that well. At least we can remind people that the original intent was nothing like the outcome.


----------



## Dewdman42

youngpokie said:


> That's my point. We should be taking models, predictions etc from all these different areas and weighing them as totality of consequences before deciding on _what's the least bad option_. That hasn't happened.



what makes you so sure it hasn't happened? 



> This explanation sounds a bit shaky to me. "in the hopes"??



I agree that its shaky! I wish the government would clamp down martial law right now frankly. But that is what they are trying to avoid.


----------



## Sears Poncho

Vik said:


> Or less. There could be more than a million infected already within a week or two, unless the numbers flatten out from now on.


From what I am hearing and seeing (through my window) in Ohio, people aren't taking this seriously at all. And they will hurt or kill all of us. The numbers will skyrocket.


----------



## Dewdman42

JohnG said:


> IDK @Dewdman42 -- I'm not a lawyer but I'm not sure what _legal_ authority would allow them to do it. I am not aware of anything in the US constitution or states either that actually spells out that power.
> 
> They can try to persuade people, or use force. On the brute force side, you could argue they have the guns, but, as you know, in some parts of the USA people have quite a few themselves.
> 
> It would be nice if people listened; some people think "oh it's just old people," but then, they are people too. Moreover, people of all ages are dying and / or taking up hospital beds and respirators.
> 
> I give it six weeks before it gets very hard to control. Probably more like three.



They already aren't controlling it. NYC and CA are trying too clamp down and barely controlling it. Where I live...people aren't social distancing themselves other then unable to go to happy hour.

I tend to agree with you in a couple weeks all hell is going to break loose because the mob will rise up regardless of the pleading from the leaders.

At that point we will either burn down in our own ignorance or they will bring out increasing levels of martial law. What happens later in the courts I will also leave to the lawyers to decide.

I don't think it will come to that though, I think they are too afraid to do it (the leaders). So basically the mob will continue to ignore the leaders, push limits of their freedom and we are going too spread this virus far and wide.

Democracies are not well suited for this kind of situation. Our democracy is based on the idea that every issue has to be well debated, dragging on and on for years until finally there is truly a national consensus and changes happen very very slowly...over years. That is by design. And its a good design. But its not a good design for when a pandemic hits.


----------



## JohnG

Sears Poncho said:


> The numbers will skyrocket.



Especially if Trump follows through in ten days and bags the whole isolation thing. He's already tweeting about it.


----------



## Sears Poncho

JohnG said:


> Especially if Trump follows through in ten days and bags the whole isolation thing. He's already tweeting about it.


Yup. So is Fox News.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

youngpokie said:


> That's my point. We should be taking models, predictions etc from all these different areas and weighing them as totality of consequences before deciding on _what's the least bad option_. That hasn't happened.


You aren't coming right out and saying it, but it seems from your various posts that you're advocating giving up on containing the virus, letting it run its course, and accepting that it will kill a percentage of the population. And instead you want to focus on saving the economy for those who survive, and making sure the government can't tell people to stay in.


----------



## JohnG

Sears Poncho said:


> Yup. So is Fox News.



Pravda


----------



## Dewdman42

Sears Poncho said:


> From what I am hearing and seeing (through my window) in Ohio, people aren't taking this seriously at all. And they will hurt or kill all of us. The numbers will skyrocket.



This is unfortunately what I see happening also. its why I am staying 100% locked in my house until further notice. 

I have a theory about why people are being so idiotic. I think its largely because of fear and everyone is afraid. I see two big types of behavior happening. i see people that are panicking and buying a years worth of toilet paper. Those people have acknowledged their fear and are overreacting on it. The other big group is the people that are in complete denial despite overwhelming evidence that we are in the middle of a serious crisis. They are going about their business, and coming up with all manner of crazy rationales for why this whole thing is a scam and we'll all be fine, etc. They are out pretending that life can go on as normal. They do not want to accept it. The reason is because subconsciously they are scared to death of accepting the actual reality, so they are acting out almost in self righteous defiance of it. 

We are watching human nature at work, dealing with fear of a scary situation.

Its a relatively few that can take the situation in a calm manner and make whatever sacrifices that they can see are necessary to get through this with as few bumps and bruises as possible.


----------



## JohnG

you may be right, @Dewdman42 

confirmed cases jumped 10x in one week. If it does that again, maybe we'll see more people persuaded.


----------



## dzilizzi

youngpokie said:


> A link in the Atlantic article sent me to read about Jacobson v Massachusetts, where the legal protections during public health emergencies were defined:
> 
> _In affirming Massachusetts’ compulsory vaccination law, the Court established a floor of constitutional protections that consists of 4 standards: necessity, reasonable means, proportionality, and harm avoidance._
> 
> I think each of these protections can and should generate legal arguments in courts (if that case is even applicable), so that there is more clarity on police powers that are updated for the modern world.


But you forget, the state owns most of the beaches and pretty much all public beaches. The can, and have in the past, closed them. Anyone who has to get a government permit to operate - like bars - can lose their permits if they don't follow the requirements of that permit. So there are basic things they can do just to start. The cities can close the parks. And the police can enforce the closures. 

They can't so much force people not to congregate, but they can make it very hard to do so in a non-private space. And then we get to fire regulations, which cover private spaces. City codes, etc.... Yes. They can do it. It just takes more work than if people would self-isolate voluntarily.


----------



## Dewdman42

JohnG said:


> you may be right, @Dewdman42
> 
> confirmed cases jumped 10x in one week. If it does that again, maybe we'll see more people persuaded.



Things are going to change drastically in the next two weeks IMHO, but the spreading will not slow down for a month.


----------



## Patrick.K

Dewdman42 said:


> They already aren't controlling it. NYC and CA are trying too clamp down and barely controlling it. Where I live...people aren't social distancing themselves other then unable to go to happy hour.
> 
> I tend to agree with you in a couple weeks all hell is going to break loose because the mob will rise up regardless of the pleading from the leaders.
> 
> At that point we will either burn down in our own ignorance or they will bring out increasing levels of martial law. What happens later in the courts I will also leave to the lawyers to decide.
> 
> I don't think it will come to that though, I think they are too afraid to do it (the leaders). So basically the mob will continue to ignore the leaders, push limits of their freedom and we are going too spread this virus far and wide.
> 
> Democracies are not well suited for this kind of situation. Our democracy is based on the idea that every issue has to be well debated, dragging on and on for years until finally there is truly a national consensus and changes happen very very slowly...over years. That is by design. And its a good design. But its not a good design for when a pandemic hits.



I have just heard in the French media that there are more than 40,000 Americans already infected, or compared to the number of inhabitants in the USA, that makes twice as many infected people as in China! ...
In addition, Trump says that he is afraid that the containment remedy will be worse than the evil, for the economy, it's crazy, we don't care, the most important is to protect the population, to take tougher decisions
So, if all this is true, I worry even more, it is not worthy of a president.
With us five hospital doctors have just died two yesterday and three today ... shit


----------



## Patrick.K

JohnG said:


> you may be right, @Dewdman42
> 
> confirmed cases jumped 10x in one week. If it does that again, maybe we'll see more people persuaded.


Shit !
I just heard that the progression is now exponential in the US.
_Stay at home !._


----------



## Dewdman42

I just got the following mass email from my state's (Utah) senator:



> A Respected Senior Mathematician Sent Me A Terrifying Note:
> “The rate of (virus) increase has been consistent this week,” state epidemiologist Angela Dunn said in a briefing. “It’s been about a 50% increase this entire week from day to day.”
> Utah started last week with 8 Coronavirus positive test cases we ended yesterday with 112 cases.
> Do the exponential growth math. The same rate gives us, in Utah, next Friday, 1912 cases.
> The following week, it is 33,265 cases.
> Assume 80% of Utah's young population is OK--they do not need intervention.
> Assume 10% of the cases within five days need critical care.
> Assume a 2% death rate.
> In two weeks the Utah numbers look like this.
> Critical care beds--3,326 needed.
> With an expected 665 deaths.
> Week three is too terrible to even imagine.”



Meanwhile my friends are at the park playing pickle ball with a group of 30 people.


----------



## Dewdman42

Patrick9152 said:


> I have just heard in the French media that there are more than 40,000 Americans already infected, or compared to the number of inhabitants in the USA, that makes twice as many infected people as in China! ...



its worse then that. most of the USA infections are in NYC and CA (so far). So reduce the overall population size even more.


----------



## Patrick.K

Dewdman42 said:


> its worse then that. most of the USA infections are in NYC and CA (so far). So reduce the overall population size even more.



I can hardly believe it!, But I think you are better informed, I wish you were wrong.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Dewdman42 said:


> Meanwhile my friends are at the park playing pickle ball with a group of 30 people.


Is there any way to talk your friends into staying home?

Depending on their political leanings, maybe appeal to empathy/compassion, or patriotism/supporting our medical professionals who are on the "front lines".

At this point, I might even welcome Alex Jones convincing people of chem trails or whatever batsh*t crazy ideas, as long as they have the end result of people _staying home_.


----------



## Patrick.K

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Is there any way to talk your friends into staying home?
> 
> Depending on their political leanings, maybe appeal to empathy/compassion, or patriotism/supporting our medical professionals who are on the "front lines".
> 
> At this point, I might even welcome Alex Jones convincing people of chem trails or whatever batsh*t crazy ideas, as long as they have the end result of people _staying home_.


Only one solution: the National Guard or or as in France up to 3,500 euros and six months in prison


----------



## dzilizzi

Let's talk about the population of California (and New York and Florida, for that matter). The majority who live here are not originally from here. I am third generation Californian. But the majority of people I meet who live here come from other states and countries. A lot of other countries where the culture is a lot different. Some don't even speak or understand English. Telling some of them not to cram 16 people into a small 2 bedroom apartment doesn't go over well, but then telling all 16 they have to stay home is worse. And the tourists. Always the tourists. They aren't staying in after they paid to come here and go to Disneyland or the beach.


----------



## LinusW

Patrick9152 said:


> Only one solution: the National Guard or or as in France up to 3,500 euros and six months in prison


Or the chinese way of welding doors shut?  

We've had all current theatre shows canceled but I was just about to start working on the play for late 2020 and early 2021 so I merged my home studio and work studio at home. Gear everywhere. Have to do everything by virtual instruments.


----------



## youngpokie

Land of Missing Parts said:


> You aren't coming right out and saying, but it seems from your various posts that you're advocating giving up on containing the virus, letting it run its course, and accepting that it will kill a percentage of the population. And instead you want to focus on saving the economy for those who survive, and making sure the government can't tell people to stay in.



The Fed said this morning they are expecting 30% unemployment and GDP reduced by 50%. Perhaps you don't agree and it's totally OK if you don't, but I personally think this is a catastrophe.

Compare this with the fact that in the US, so far over 500 people died due to coronavirus _in two months_. In normal times, we have over 6,000 people die _PER DAY_. It's a terrible comparison, which I completely acknowledge, but at the same time I cannot come up with an explanation as to why we as a society are willing to cause enormous human suffering in one case and not the other.

I'm not advocating giving up on the virus at all. But I think isolating the vulnerable population and using masks for general population while the drug trials take place is one way of containment, and it's possible that it would result in less overall harm to the society. It's not perfect, but considering the numbers and the consequences it might be more proportional.

You and I have been arguing over this (perhaps indirectly) on this thread before. You say I'm advocating to let the virus run its course to save the economy. I think where we think differently is that I'm advocating for containment that's proportional and you're advocating for eradication regardless of human/societal cost.


----------



## Patrick.K

dzilizzi said:


> Let's talk about the population of California (and New York and Florida, for that matter). The majority who live here are not originally from here. I am third generation Californian. But the majority of people I meet who live here come from other states and countries. A lot of other countries where the culture is a lot different. Some don't even speak or understand English. Telling some of them not to cram 16 people into a small 2 bedroom apartment doesn't go over well, but then telling all 16 they have to stay home is worse. And the tourists. Always the tourists. They aren't staying in after they paid to come here and go to Disneyland or the beach.


I understand the problem, but here too we have a large population of immigrants who, even if they understand the french language, make us believe that they do not understand, that they did not know, they are always the same, they keep their culture, and do nothing to integrate and respect the people and laws of the host country.
It is really a huge problem, with us too.


----------



## Patrick.K

LinusW said:


> Or the chinese way of welding doors shut?
> 
> We've had all current theatre shows canceled but I was just about to start working on the play for late 2020 and early 2021 so I merged my home studio and work studio at home. Gear everywhere. Have to do everything by virtual instruments.


The welded door could be a solution, it would be a good idea for those who do not want to understand.
It's a constraint, that's for sure, but you're protected, and with virtual instruments, you don't risk anything.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

youngpokie said:


> Compare this with the fact that in the US, so far over 500 people died due to coronavirus _in two months_. In normal times, we have over 6,000 people die _PER DAY_. It's a terrible comparison, which I completely acknowledge, but at the same time I cannot come up with an explanation as to why we as a society are willing to cause enormous human suffering in one case and not the other.


This comparison misses the point. You need to look at the _trend_. The number of coronavirus cases goes up at an accelerated rate. The number of people dying of non-COVID-19 causes isn't.



youngpokie said:


> I'm not advocating giving up on the virus at all. But I think isolating the vulnerable population and using masks for general population while the drug trials take place is one way of containment, and it's possible that it would result in less overall harm to the society. It's not perfect, but considering the numbers and the consequences it might be more proportional.


Can you point to a place in the world where this has worked? Or can you point to any medical expert who is seriously proposing this will work?


----------



## Dewdman42

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Is there any way to talk your friends into staying home?
> 
> Depending on their political leanings, maybe appeal to empathy/compassion, or patriotism/supporting our medical professionals who are on the "front lines".
> 
> At this point, I might even welcome Alex Jones convincing people of chem trails or whatever batsh*t crazy ideas, as long as they have the end result of people _staying home_.



I've tried. They don't want to believe the truth of what is coming. Its hubris.


----------



## Dewdman42

youngpokie said:


> The Fed said this morning they are expecting 30% unemployment and GDP reduced by 50%. Perhaps you don't agree and it's totally OK if you don't, but I personally think this is a catastrophe.
> 
> Compare this with the fact that in the US, so far over 500 people died due to coronavirus _in two months_. In normal times, we have over 6,000 people die _PER DAY_. It's a terrible comparison, which I completely acknowledge, but at the same time I cannot come up with an explanation as to why we as a society are willing to cause enormous human suffering in one case and not the other.
> 
> I'm not advocating giving up on the virus at all. But I think isolating the vulnerable population and using masks for general population while the drug trials take place is one way of containment, and it's possible that it would result in less overall harm to the society. It's not perfect, but considering the numbers and the consequences it might be more proportional.
> 
> You and I have been arguing over this (perhaps indirectly) on this thread before. You say I'm advocating to let the virus run its course to save the economy. I think where we think differently is that I'm advocating for containment that's proportional and you're advocating for eradication regardless of human/societal cost.



You are listing off the worst case economic scenario and not the worst case health care scenario. The worst case health scenario is probably a million dead, maybe more. So you tell me...is it worth allowing a million people die to let this play out and save the economy from the 50% lost GDP?


----------



## Patrick.K

Dewdman42 said:


> You are listing off the worst case economic scenario and not the worst case health care scenario. The worst case health scenario is probably a million dead, maybe more. So you tell me...is it worth allowing a million people die to let this play out and save the economy from the 50% lost GDP?


Currently, the only solution to fight effectively is total containment, well I think, and that is what all the scientists advise.
The economy will wake up, but not the dead ...
They are undoubtedly right, because they have knowledge and not me.
Do you prefer to be without work, but alive, or dead with work? ...


----------



## youngpokie

Land of Missing Parts said:


> This comparison misses the point. You need to look at the _trend_. The number of coronavirus cases goes up at an accelerated rate. The number of people dying of non-COVID-19 isn't.



You compare cases with deaths, not deaths with deaths. Why? Of course, as we test more the number of cases goes up. But the death rate continues to go down, the trend is going down. So in the end, we're back to raw death count.

You also keep asking me to give you an example of where containment vs eradication has worked. I haven't looked and I don't know if it has even been tried anywhere. But of course this by itself doesn't mean that a containment strategy is wrong or will not work. 

It's like we're jumping around the central point of our difference - is there a point at all where the human and social cost of our current policy becomes too much to bear? And if there is, what is it???


----------



## dzilizzi

Patrick9152 said:


> Currently, the only solution to fight effectively is total containment, well I think, and that is what all the scientists advise.
> The economy will wake up, but not the dead ...
> They are undoubtedly right, because they have knowledge and not me.
> Do you prefer to be without work, but alive, or dead with work? ...


Total containment only works if everybody has toilet paper....or a bidet. 

And maybe some food or something.....

On a more serious note, we still need water and electric. And probably garbage pick-up. And we may need to contain all our garbage, run the sewage through UV lights, etc... so it doesn't come back because we didn't follow general safety rules.


----------



## Dewdman42

containment only works if its done early. We have already missed the chance to do that. Closing our borders a few weeks earlier might have done it. But we missed it. Once it was here, with the long incubation period that is it, containment is really not possible.

The only way we could contain it now would be to enforce absolute martial law, lock everyone in their house for at least 2 weeks. The sick people die in their houses, the rest survive and then after those die, the rest can come out, virus gone...ie contained. But we're not going to do that, so just forget it. Containment is not a possibility now.

Mitigation is where we are now which is simply about trying to minimize the damage. How can we minimize the damage? By avoiding a hospital crisis. That is the biggest concern at the moment that we are headed to a sharp peak through mass infection that leads to a hospital crisis.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

youngpokie said:


> But the death rate continues to go down, the trend is going down.


In the US the death rate is going up, not down.

EDIT: I mean the number of new coronavirus deaths each day is going up.


----------



## youngpokie

Dewdman42 said:


> virus gone...ie contained.



That's eradication, not containment, isn't it?


----------



## Dewdman42

The death rate is not knowable at this time so its crazy to even talk about it. I have heard every theory under the sun and its just people postulating with partial information. We won't know the actual death rate of this thing until years from now looking back. The infection count is definitely increasing exponentially...so you can expect deaths are going to start happening a lot more soon.

Also, as I have said before...deaths are happening a week or two after infection. So compare the current number of deaths to the infection number a few weeks ago...and that is truly frightening. Then look at Italy and Spain...and its not at all unreasonable to say that it very well could be a nearly 10% kill rate.

Anyway. WHO CARES what the actual kill rate is? Italy has body bags all over the place and the country on lockdown. It is a true pandemic crisis with death and despair, and growing daily. 

Even china has recently started to pickup their infection rate a little bit as of today...


----------



## Dewdman42

youngpokie said:


> That's eradication, not containment, isn't it?



The only way to contain this virus is to eradicate it. If there are any unknown cases out there...people with out symptoms spreading it around, then its not contained. The only time we could have contained is if China had warned us earlier and we immediately shut all international visitors off from coming in. We did not do that. Its not possible to contain it now.


----------



## youngpokie

Dewdman42 said:


> The only way to contain this virus is to eradicate it. If there are any unknown cases out there...people with out symptoms spreading it around, then its not contained. The only time we could have contained is if China had warned us earlier and we immediately shut all international visitors off from coming in. We did not do that. Its not possible to contain it now.


----------



## Dewdman42

do you feel we are containing it? I don't. the infection rate is going up exponentially. We have failed to contain it. The health experts have said to me on the camera numerous times, we are past the containment phase and now in mitigation.

But young pokie you can believe what you want to believe. I'm tired of debating with you. Please be safe.


----------



## Zedcars

I’m taking unpaid leave from today to protect my elderly mother who has heart failure and asthma. She’s self-isolating. She would not survive if she caught it and I’m putting her at risk by working in a hospital every day. I’m only admin so not an essential service. My manager tried to stop me, but I went over her head and went to HR who allowed me to do this. Then my manager tried to guilt trip me by saying I would set a precedent and others may follow me so the department would not cope. Preservation of life before work in my view, if that work is non-essential. I think she also lied to me about HR not allowing it.


----------



## JohnG

People can't wrap their minds around 'exponential.' We had 10x the number of cases this week as last. Picture a few weeks of that.

Remember the old question of putting one grain of rice on the first square of a chessboard, then two on the next, four on the one after, then eight; then asking, "How many grains of rice on the last square?"

It's quite a few; nine quintillion, by my calculations.

Nevertheless, capitalism often puts money over people already, so I guess that's what we may see. Certainly you know who thinks that way.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

youngpokie said:


> How do you count?


I mean that the number of new COVID-19 deaths reported each day. The trend I'm talking about is that number getting higher and higher.


----------



## Dewdman42

JohnG said:


> People can't wrap their minds around 'exponential.' We had 10x the number of cases this week as last. Picture a few weeks of that.



Yep. 

We tend to want to see things linearly in order to make sense out of it.

There are videos about this psychological condition and why our brain struggles with the concept. I will try to dig them up. It's a known deficiency in our brain. 

In fairness, our 10x growth the past week has been partly because of delayed testing. The actual growth rate is probably something less then that, but its still substantial. its probably doubling every 4-5 days. That can still add up quick though.


----------



## AndyP

JohnG said:


> Nevertheless, capitalism often puts money over people already, so I guess that's what we may see. Certainly you know who thinks that way.


The sad thing is, I don't see anyone stopping that person right now. Not even the ever-eyed experts. A loud silence.


----------



## MauroPantin

I am still in isolation, studying music, making the most of the downtime that I can. Looks like the mandatory isolation will be getting extended here in Argentina. It was supposed to end next Friday. Now it's looking like we're going all the way to easter weekend, 3 weeks from now. I can still go out for meds and groceries, but nothing else. Tax cuts and a lot of relief have already been announced for the economic aftermath. 

Also, all borders are nearly closed. Citizens are allowed to come back home but are encouraged to do so quickly before all airports are shut down, there are almost no flights available. I have a friend who had to fly to a Brazilian border town and cross on foot in order to get back today. He's now on a bus coming to Buenos Aires from Iguazu. He was tested for COVID-19 before getting in the bus and will be brought to his home just a block away from my house for a mandatory 2-week quarantine (not isolation in his case, quarantine, he will not be allowed to go out for that period and could go to prison if he does).

This is going to sound weird... but I am so grateful that my country goes through a crisis so often. We are so used to worrying about the future, about making sure we have emergency savings, about being able to pull through a recession, about looking ahead and planning for the worse... nobody batted an eyelash here about the need to go home and stay the fuck there, the consequences be damned. We saw what was coming and the government took action quickly. We will pull through the economic bullshit. We have done it before and it was coming sooner or later, anyway. Keeping a stable economy long term is not our forte.

In juxtaposition, I see the US and I have to say I am worried about you guys. I have a lot of friends and clients over there, I don't want any of them to suffer or go through a terrible hardship. We see you on the TV going outside, hanging out at the beach, just a lot of complacency. 

I understand it must be difficult to imagine something awful happening on that scale that could destroy the lives of a lot of people as it has happened elsewhere, morgues in full capacity, etc. because the US has such incredible stability, so it must seem impossible to disrupt. But Europe has a lot of stability, too and Italy was fine 3 or 4 weeks ago. To quote the Grateful Dead, "When life seems like easy street, there is danger at your door". So, if you can, take care of yourselves and your families and stay in!


----------



## dzilizzi

On a more positive note, they seem to be having some luck with malaria drugs. I don't know that we have enough to give to everyone. And it may not be so good for people with certain conditions because of the side effects, but it seems to help those who have the disease to get better. At least it can help lower the death rate. 

I was watching the president's briefing. It seems from the information they are getting, most of those who have died suffered from at least one, but usually 2 or more of the underlying conditions such as heart disease and asthma. Though sometimes I wish they wouldn't say that because it gives the idiots a reason to go out an play beer pong.


----------



## NoamL

Dewdman42 said:


> This is quite frightening. All I can say is let's see what it looks like in a week.



It doesn't make any sense to me. Yes there are hotspots in some states (WA, NY, CA, soon IL) that's not surprising... those states contain most of the country's biggest intl travel hubs and were also the last open ports of return for travelers after the "ban." But the idea of shutting those states down and keeping places like Texas going with "life as normal" or even as one of the other speakers at the conference said "managing this with data zipcode by zipcode" just... it's nuts. This was a viable strategy on like February goddamn 6th. The containment option is gone. You have to do national mitigation. Otherwise there will be epidemics in other states soon enough. Not even to mention the possibility that other states already DO have epidemics and we're just waiting for the mortality figures to go exponential with that 3 week time lag behind infection figures, which are unmeasured because of no testing.


----------



## sIR dORT

Opinion | These Drugs Are Helping Our Coronavirus Patients


The evidence is preliminary on repurposing two treatments. But we don’t have the luxury of time.




www.wsj.com




Very good read IMO and offers some optimism on the future because as everyone knows, there's no way America can economically survive in this kind of lockdown for more than another week or two, with the markets, which are incredibly volatile, tumbling right now (down another 3% today). Many people (obviously most notably those whose work involves face-to-face interactions) will eventually risk infection out of necessity to earn a paycheck. 

I think whether you like Trump, Pelosi, whoever, you should be hoping/praying that they are smart and wise about how they attack it. 

Also, while I do think that the virus is obviously extremely dangerous and more lethal than the flu and I'm not underplaying that at all, I think it's very important to remember that, as more and more tests become available in the U.S. (as they have been recently), infections are going to jump due to people who have been infected for a while finally getting a chance to get tested. 

Thoughts and prayers to all of you in hotspots like N.Y.C., WA, and most importantly Italy.

(On a less serious note, anyone else feel like you're in a time loop, with every day starting to feel identical?)


----------



## Dewdman42

NoamL said:


> It doesn't make any sense to me. Yes there are hotspots in some states (WA, NY, CA, soon IL) that's not surprising... those states contain most of the country's biggest intl travel hubs and were also the last open ports of return for travelers after the "ban." But the idea of shutting those states down and keeping places like Texas going with "life as normal" or even as one of the other speakers at the conference said "managing this with data zipcode by zipcode" just... it's nuts. This was a viable strategy on like February goddamn 6th. The containment option is gone. You have to do national mitigation. Otherwise there will be epidemics in other states soon enough. Not even to mention the possibility that other states already DO have epidemics and we're just waiting for the mortality figures to go exponential with that 3 week time lag behind infection figures, which are unmeasured because of no testing.



I don't think they will open anything back up anyway, in a week that idea will be off the table in my opinion. Our state is doubling like crazy and I don't see how they can open anything unless it flattens off. I think they must believe in their hearts that somehow the social distancing we have done so far is going to result in it flattening off in many areas, but not the dense metros you mentioned. So let's all hope they are right in hoping that. 

I tend to agree with you though, containment is not possible now. If they open back up in a week, it will just come back again.


----------



## JohnG

guys let's please avoid name calling. Everyone is a bit on edge with this. I would prefer to keep it more about what we are doing, what our lives are like, what we're doing musically.

Naturally people can write things, but there is a Politics thread for that. Personally, I don't want quotations from Fox News or the Guardian either, nice though they may be. There are plenty of ways to access those.


----------



## Vik

Some potential good news: They have now found 40 different mutations/variations of the corona virus in Iceland, spread over three main clusters. The reason this may be good news is that they assume that these mutations may be less disease triggering than the original virus. Iceland has, in spite of it's low population (364 000 people) tested almost 10 000 already, and a local company focusing on genetics have used the special situation there to trace how corona spreads, probably in a more detailed way than would have been possible most other places. They are soon going to share their findings in an international database.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Okay, I moved the brawl to the OT-Politics ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK section. Everyone can have a great time insulting each other there.






Covid-19: The Politics Oh The Politics Ooh Ooh Ooh


He's going to stir up international incidents to deflect from his incompetence while people here die. Wake up. Period!



vi-control.net


----------



## NoamL

How we can talk about the government response to this without crossing the politics line?... That's not sarcasm, some clear delineation of what we can & can't talk about would be useful. I don't want a politics slapfight anymore than anyone else.


----------



## angeruroth

What gives me the creeps is what's going to happen after the pandemic.
A high percentage of people will lost their jobs, companies closing forever or barely surviving, bankers asking for compensations to avoid their hells, normal people really hungry, and the ones with special needs, autism, sleeping disorders, uncommon health problems...

If the world wakes up after our long night feeling somehow the pain of their neighbors we may move in the right direction to help the community, be that community big or small, but I have no doubt that some will take other paths, wrong paths. And that could be an extra problem.

What will happen with all of us, wherever we are. We are all people after all, human beings, the same in Spain, in Italy, UK, Germany, China, US, Afghanistan... and at this point I feel the frontiers are just a old unuseful thing from the past. A limit. And this global virus doesn't believe in limits.

Will the current "countries" allow a real union between neighbors, even for a short time?
Will I be able to help a bit there where it's most needed, or will I find no options to help healing a soon to be broken world?
I mean, my skill sets and capabilities may not be super helpful but, no matter the situation, there are always some things you can do to help.

Well, that's if we survive and retain part of our sanity... but that's another story.


----------



## angeruroth

JohnG said:


> I would prefer to keep it more about what we are doing, what our lives are like, what we're doing musically.


Well, I'm making things like this one, and I can't stop:

Video


Audio



I also have very little time for music right now, so no big things coming out, but every second I have my music circles over and over around the same ideas.


----------



## InLight-Tone

I ,coming from a preventative health perspective and establishing immunity through diet, herbs, lifestyle, mental state, have ZERO faith in vaccines, and harsh drugs to save us. That's wishful thinking in my perspective. I'm outside of Santa Barbara CA at the moment in a beautiful isolated national park, and went into town for supplies today. Trader Joes had their shit together, distancing customers, only letting in a certain number, while otherwise buses full of people are driving on the streets, everyone is taking it lightly. It's easy to see how it spreads.

IMO, 2 weeks or more, shut EVERYTHING DOWN, no mass transit, flights, buses, trains, pay EVERYONE to stay home. Fuck economics! I really feel for grocery store workers, they are as bad as being medical personal right now...


----------



## Dewdman42

Interesting suggestions here:









Opinion | A Plan to Get America Back to Work (Published 2020)


Some experts say it can be done in weeks, not months — and the economy and public health are at stake.




www.nytimes.com


----------



## Stringtree

Where _is _Dr. Anthony Fauci?


----------



## Soundhound

No more press conferences for Tony F. He contradicted the Nitwit one too many times.


----------



## Zedcars

The UK is now shutting down pretty much all businesses except food stores and medical facilities. Just read that a major sports clothing shop is not playing ball (if you excuse the pun):

Coronavirus: Sports Direct vows to keep shops open despite new curbs https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52011915

They always were a terrible company.

The public are now being ordered to stay at home except:

To exercise once a day
To travel to and from work where "absolutely necessary”
To shop for essential items
To fulfil any medical or care needs

Along with shops selling non-essential goods, libraries and children's playgrounds are also being told to close. Gatherings in public of more than two people who do not live together will be prohibited.

Anyone flouting these rules will either be fined or arrested using new police powers.

EDIT: Sports Direct u-turn after backlash








Coronavirus: Sports Direct U-turns on opening after backlash


Retailer says it will not open its shops "until we are given the go-ahead by the government".



www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## mikeh-375

@Zedcars
did you see Gove on GMB this morning? He said that the idiot (my polite description) in charge of SportsDirect should rescind his directive. Damn right, I hope he does, his business is not essential but the lives of his staff are.


----------



## Zedcars

mikeh-375 said:


> @Zedcars
> did you see Gove on GMB this morning? He said that the idiot (my polite description) in charge of SportsDirect should rescind his directive. Damn right, I hope he does, his business is not essential but the lives of his staff are.


I missed that bit as I tuned in late. He is a giant turd.


----------



## Zero&One

I'm in hospital today for 2 days, part of my fortnightly treatment for autoimmune. 

It's eerie... not many people at all. 
No traffic and a choice of parking spots were a bonus, not normal UK pleasures.


----------



## Zedcars

Zero&One said:


> I'm in hospital today for 2 days, part of my fortnightly treatment for autoimmune.
> 
> It's eerie... not many people at all.
> No traffic and a choice of parking spots were a bonus, not normal UK pleasures.


Keep safe mate.


----------



## TomislavEP

The COVID-19 situation here in Croatia still seems rather stable in comparison to some neighboring countries, but the number of those infected steadily increases on a daily basis. On top of it, we're recently afflicted by a series of natural disasters, including devastating earthquakes, fires, and bad weather, although spring was very much in the air only a few days ago.

Personally, I'm quite worried as I have several family members who are considered to be particularly at risk due to their age and general health. Some rather drastic security measures are being introduced every day, and this shows in every aspect of life.

Other than that, my daily routine hasn't changed much - I prefer to work at my home studio most of the time. However, for many years now, my main source of income is playing various gigs with a band or solo. As you might imagine, this year's season is still pretty much under the big question mark...

The only remedy that keeps me going on is music, creativity, and learning while hoping for better times ahead.


----------



## Sears Poncho

JohnG said:


> I would prefer to keep it more about what we are doing, what our lives are like, what we're doing musically.


A "what are you doing musically" thread would be a nice idea.



JohnG said:


> Naturally people can write things, but there is a Politics thread for that. Personally, I don't want quotations from Fox News or the Guardian either, nice though they may be. There are plenty of ways to access those.


Fair enough. I'll probably drop out of all non-musical threads about it, because there is no way to separate the 2 IMO. In the US, this is a political issue, and we'll see why in the coming weeks. I'm a big fan of off-topic forums being "Politics" and "No Politics". This might be the only subject I can think of that the lines are so blurred that they don't matter any more. 

When the Lt. Gov. of Texas (and others) say "Hey old people, you should be willing to die to protect young folks (aka his old wealthy stockholder cronies) then we have a political issue instead of a virus issue. The idea of "Hey, don't talk politics in this subject about politics" makes no sense to me but I like this forum and will be happy to comply. 

And again, I like the idea of a "what are you doing musically" thread. Someone start one and I'll see some of yinz there....


----------



## Vik

JohnG said:


> I would prefer to keep it more about what we are doing, what our lives are like, what we're doing musically.


That makes sense, but/and now there's also this thread:




__





COVID-19 - let's discuss how we cope and how it affect us - no political discussion please


This thread is about discussing COVID-19, what it means to us personally as human beings and professionally as artists. The reason why I'm opening this thread is simply: I want one which is not about politics because it doesn't help people who're in the middle of the storm. I'm not, I'm at the...



vi-control.net




...plus the corona/politics thread. Maybe we should just stop using this thread since it has become off topic (I know I've contributed to that, sorry about that), and instead have a plain Corona thread in addition to the coping and the politics threads?

Edit: Never mind, I started a new thread about the corona development in each country here.


----------



## MoeWalsaad

I'm optimistic in the long run, the collective has so much to learn from the crisis that will flip the way we live upside down and skyrocket our collective consciousness, but for the short-term (may last a decade or more) I think we will suffer a lot and the days of icecream and luxury is off the table until further notice.

I may fool myself to think I'm lucky because I still have a job for now, (or I'm in a contract at least) but I'm not sure the production will continue and whether our employer, clients, and investors be able to pay us our money, etc.. the whole economy is down, a huge complicated production line has been interrupted and frozen until further notice.

The entertainment and art industry lives on the shoulders of security, health, and a certain level of prosperity which will be disrupted deeply by this crisis.
People WANT music and movies but they don't NEED them.

I'm not a seer, so finger crossed, but also getting ready for the rainy days.


----------



## dzilizzi

Sears Poncho said:


> A "what are you doing musically" thread would be a nice idea.
> 
> 
> Fair enough. I'll probably drop out of all non-musical threads about it, because there is no way to separate the 2 IMO. In the US, this is a political issue, and we'll see why in the coming weeks. I'm a big fan of off-topic forums being "Politics" and "No Politics". This might be the only subject I can think of that the lines are so blurred that they don't matter any more.
> 
> When the Lt. Gov. of Texas (and others) say "Hey old people, you should be willing to die to protect young folks (aka his old wealthy stockholder cronies) then we have a political issue instead of a virus issue. The idea of "Hey, don't talk politics in this subject about politics" makes no sense to me but I like this forum and will be happy to comply.
> 
> And again, I like the idea of a "what are you doing musically" thread. Someone start one and I'll see some of yinz there....


Hmm. If we let all the old people get it and die off, that would include the President, the Supreme Court, and most of congress. Plus a whole lot of people that keep this country going, like Bill Gates. Granted, a lot of them have people who could step in. But, what the heck, that sounds like fun! No more politics! *insert sarcastic smiley here* 

Okay, sorry John. Couldn't help myself. My husband has a lot of health issues that put him on the list. I'm mostly healthy, but I'm also getting close to the "potentially a problem" age. And we may have to go back to urgent care, as his ear infection doesn't seem to be getting better. We are both just taking a lot of Vitamin C right now.


----------



## Sears Poncho

MoeWalsaad said:


> People WANT music and movies but they don't NEED them.


OK, this is a good music-related topic.

I think overall people do "need" them, in some way. Especially music, it's been around since Caveman time. Movies are the new kid. I could go without movies, I don't even own a TV. But music- birds produce music. So can running water, echoes in canyons. I think it's been part of our DNA for so long that there is a literal need. Technically we don't need friends or companions, and could live on Walden Pond. As long as we had our instruments with us. And/or a power supply.


----------



## synergy543

Soundhound said:


> No more press conferences for Tony F. He contradicted the Nitwit one too many times.


I guess the networks give more air time to the Nitwit than Dr. F., as the Nitwit provides viewers with more entertainment "value", and thus more money for the networks. Too bad Dr.F is not Hugh Laurie.


----------



## AndyP

angeruroth said:


> What gives me the creeps is what's going to happen after the pandemic.
> A high percentage of people will lost their jobs, companies closing forever or barely surviving, bankers asking for compensations to avoid their hells, normal people really hungry, and the ones with special needs, autism, sleeping disorders, uncommon health problems...
> 
> If the world wakes up after our long night feeling somehow the pain of their neighbors we may move in the right direction to help the community, be that community big or small, but I have no doubt that some will take other paths, wrong paths. And that could be an extra problem.
> 
> What will happen with all of us, wherever we are. We are all people after all, human beings, the same in Spain, in Italy, UK, Germany, China, US, Afghanistan... and at this point I feel the frontiers are just a old unuseful thing from the past. A limit. And this global virus doesn't believe in limits.
> 
> Will the current "countries" allow a real union between neighbors, even for a short time?
> Will I be able to help a bit there where it's most needed, or will I find no options to help healing a soon to be broken world?
> I mean, my skill sets and capabilities may not be super helpful but, no matter the situation, there are always some things you can do to help.
> 
> Well, that's if we survive and retain part of our sanity... but that's another story.


Agree with you entirely. At the moment Germany is accepting patients from France and Italy as there is still capacity. 
Some countries send specialists to Italy, and so on.
Of course, this differs from region to region, but where possible it is offered. This should be the case everywhere. We all have to go through this pandemic and the more we support each other, the better and faster we will tame the beast and save many lives.
Economically, it will be hard for everyone, but we all have to get through it too.


----------



## Dewdman42

angeruroth said:


> What gives me the creeps is what's going to happen after the pandemic.
> 
> What will happen with all of us, wherever we are. We are all people after all, human beings, the same in Spain, in Italy, UK, Germany, China, US, Afghanistan... and at this point I feel the frontiers are just a old unuseful thing from the past. A limit. And this global virus doesn't believe in limits.



These are good and important questions to ask. I feel that the world is going to change substantially in the years the follow this. Hopefully for the better. I do think and hope that the world can learn to work together better to contain something like this which is in a way the same as if we were being invaded by an alien species and we all need to come together as human beings to defeat it. With the world as interconnected as it is today: international travel is easy, global trade is the way things are done, we have so many billions of people, etc.. the simple truth is that we are not isolated countries so much and a pandemic has shown to have very large and fast results across the entire globe. So we all have to fight together on something like this, like never before...and I think as a world we need to agree upon some practices that can potentially prevent something like that from ever getting past "containment" phase on the future if at all possible.

This last thing is the part that is very difficult, especially with our global economy. Not only has our global economy helped facilitate this pandemic very rapidly, but it is going to also be the reason why we may have a global economic crisis as well. We are all way too dependent on each other...economically. I see this as a problem actually, I know this flies in the face of what people have been building up for the past century, but this is exactly a situation where our global inter-dependence makes us all very vulnerable for an alien species (such as a virus) to take us all out at once and very difficult to contain it.

I think in the future we are going to have to find a way to operate globally, but in a way where we can contain it much more efficiently then happened this time...and how to contain economic catastrophe also. I don't know how right now, but that is what I think the world will need to evolve to. If things get really bad, and I hope they don't, but if they do, then that will motivate the world to evolve. So we can at least hope for that.


----------



## bvaughn0402

Interesting article of how NY hospitals are now starting to use Vit C treatments after some success in China:

https://nypost.com/2020/03/24/new-y...AhSNgwrDL_lsQpKQNsWPd7NrKqT0xau4SzNM4qpEBS7GE


----------



## Dewdman42

CDC says coronavirus RNA found in Princess Cruise ship cabins up to 17 days after passengers left


Traces of the coronavirus were found up to 17 days after passengers disembarked the Diamond Princess cruise ship, surviving far longer on surfaces than previous research has shown, according to new data published Monday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.




www.cnbc.com













Bill Gates says the US missed its chance to avoid coronavirus shutdown and businesses should stay closed


Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates said the US didn't act fast enough on the COVID-19 pandemic.




www.cnbc.com


----------



## Henu

InLight-Tone said:


> have ZERO faith in vaccines



LOL


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

I use more of what I already have.


----------



## InLight-Tone

Henu said:


> LOL


Yes True health can be found by injecting yourself with rotten animal parts, mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde, & MSG etc. How about building up your immune system instead? Na, that takes effort and personal responsibility and discipline. Most want to keep their bad habits, and take their anti-nature Lifestyle to the grave...


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

You do realise how we cured smallpox, right? The people who declined the vaccine and rubbed soil on their faces or drank miracle memory water didn't do so well by comparison.


----------



## dzilizzi

And polio.......


----------



## Sears Poncho

Richard Wilkinson said:


> You do realise how we cured smallpox, right? The people who declined the vaccine and rubbed soil on their faces or drank miracle memory water didn't do so well by comparison.



Yeah, but they didn't have to take their anti-nature Lifestyle to the grave. Checkmate!


----------



## MauroPantin

Vaccines work. Who gives a fuck what they are made of? As long as I don't get the disease I'm happy to inject myself with the blood of satan; I only need it to be backed by science.

I bet life on Mars or the Moon will be easier in some ways. Those places will self-select the people who favor evidence-based facts.


----------



## InLight-Tone

Did the American Indians get wiped out by the filthy disease laden White Euros because they were weak and/or deficient in vaccines?


----------



## Iswhatitis

MauroPantin said:


> Vaccines work. Who gives a fuck what they are made of? As long as I don't get the disease I'm happy to inject myself with the blood of satan; I only need it to be backed by science.
> 
> I bet life on Mars or the Moon will be easier in some ways. Those places will self-select the people who favor evidence-based facts.


The blood🩸of Satan 👺 Sounds like a metal band.


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

InLight-Tone said:


> Did the American Indians get wiped out by the filthy disease laden White Euros because they were weak and/or deficient in vaccines?



This is not the zinger you think it is, I'm afraid. The efficacy of vaccines is not in question. At all. By anyone who has the slightest understanding of the science.


----------



## MauroPantin

This entire section of the thread is probably heading to the drama zone anyway, so I might as well.

Did Julius Caesar die because he was weak or because the ambulance didn't get there in time?


----------



## dzilizzi

MauroPantin said:


> This entire section of the thread is probably heading to the drama zone anyway, so I might as well.
> 
> Did Julius Caesar die because he was weak or because the ambulance didn't get there in time?


It was just a few centuries late, jeeze. The traffic in Rome is just awful.  

But, of course, the leeches would have cured him right away if they had gotten there in time. 

I was flipping through channels last night and saw a period piece where the doctor was trying to cure someone by bleeding them. It is amazing how far medicine has come. Yeah, you could just be healthy. That will help you only. But what if you are born with an immunol-suppressant disease? Should we just let you die because all the "healthy" people around are carriers like Typhoid Mary? They whole point of vaccinating healthy people is not to spread the disease to those who can't be vaccinated.


----------



## InLight-Tone

I'm done, carry on...


----------



## Dewdman42

Vaccines are the ethically correct way for society to deal with these kinds of disease. More lives are saved By preventing spread. We will reach herd immunity much sooner then without.

the problem in this case is that it’s spreading way too fast and too many people are refusing to isolate themselves sufficiently so we are probably going to reach herd immunity before the vaccine is ever released


----------



## Iswhatitis

MauroPantin said:


> This entire section of the thread is probably heading to the drama zone anyway, so I might as well.
> 
> Did Julius Caesar die because he was weak or because the ambulance didn't get there in time?


I read that we all breathe in Julius Caesar’s last breath right before he died. Not sure how one disproves this.









Are we really breathing Caesar's last breath?


With every breath, we inhale the story of our planet. Sam Kean, author of Caesar’s Last Breath, tells us about the remarkable history of the air around us.




www.google.com





Et tu, Brute?


----------



## dzilizzi

Well, technically, the atoms never go away, they just rearrange themselves into something new. Just like how you breathe in oxygen and breathe out CO2.


----------



## Zedcars

Does that mean ya’ll breathing in a bit of a fart I did last year? My gift to the world. 

(the one I did on June 5th was particularly juicy)


----------



## KallumS

InLight-Tone said:


> Yes True health can be found by injecting yourself with rotten animal parts, mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde, & MSG etc. How about building up your immune system instead? Na, that takes effort and personal responsibility and discipline. Most want to keep their bad habits, and take their anti-nature Lifestyle to the grave...




Let me guess, the Earth is flat too?


----------



## NoamL

Still seeing a lot of "Only 1% die! Why are we shutting down our society!" stuff online

Just a quick rundown

1% die despite most advanced & specialized care available; additional 4-6% go through critical condition and would die in healthcare system overload/collapse
Healthcare system collapse means... collapse of the healthcare system. CHF/COPD/diabetics/etc would not see care. Some doctor discussion boards are even talking about reassigning orthopedic surgeons, ENT, etc to ICU.
Shutdown buys time for scientific/medical research (therapies, vaccine)
Shutdown buys time for ramping production of medical resources (Masks, gowns, ventilators, field hospitals)
*SEQUELAE*. Nobody yet knows the lifetime consequences of _surviving_ this disease. Pulmonary fibrosis? Rethink the widespread "war" metaphor for this disease: KIA, yes, but also WIA, amputees. Some very worrying evidence of neuroinvasion (loss of sense of smell indicates the virus affecting organs besides lungs).


----------



## NoamL

Crap, I forgot the _main_ reason I wanted to post that. Just goes to show there are so many reasons for us to stay home.

Mutation. The more people are infected, the more cells the virus lyses (aka making copies of itself). Every reproduction event is an incremental (small) chance for a mutation that makes this disease significantly more lethal. So far we have been pretty lucky in this regard, the virus has mutated slowly & irrelevantly (from the POV of disease severity).


----------



## Dewdman42




----------



## NoamL

Bits of info collected from a nonpartisan discussion board for NY doctors. My comments/clarifications in brackets

"Full capacity, running out of drugs and PPE [protective equipment], trialing double venting patients [putting two patients on one breathing machine with a T-tube joint], almost every critical bed is a vented covid patient. It is insane."
"My hospital is creating a special committee, separated from physicians taking care of the patients, to ration the use of ventilators. They will be charged with both who gets a vent and who gets forcibly extubated [taken off ventilator]. If we run out of vents (we haven't, but it's a very real concern), they will both ration the use of new ventilators and extubate cases with the worst prognoses regardless of whether or not survival is likely."
"Just in case people missed it, [NY Governor] Cuomo made a bunch of big deal rule changes. Malpractice has been pretty much waived. Recordkeeping rules have been waived. Lots of other things changed. State license reciprocity [dr's from other states will soon go to NYC to help]."
"Before I went to Liberia for Ebola I had a living will and advanced directives prepared. We all need to do the same."
"NYU is offering their MS4s [med students] early graduation to work as interns on medicine wards and the ER starting in April. Sounds like the NYC situation is getting quite dire."
"NY state Data as of 9:15 am 3/25: 44% of cases are over age of 50. 57% are male. Median age 46. 61% of deaths are male. 97% of deaths are over the age of 45 with 52% of all deaths being 75 and older. 95% of deaths had underlying illness (underlying illnesses include Diabetes, Lung Disease, Cancer, Immunodeficiency, Heart Disease, Hypertension, Asthma, Kidney Disease, and GI/Liver Disease)."


----------



## Dewdman42

I don't understand the stock market today at all. I think there is very much a false sense of everything is going to be ok by Easter...the government is going to send everyone money and we'll be planning summer vacation by end of April. I am very much not in agreement with that line of thinking, but that is the messaging being put out yesterday from POTUS. I am more bearish then ever now. Not a bad time to buy gold/silver actually.


----------



## NoamL

yeah there's been an "unpeeling" between what I see posted & discussed in terms of politicians/economy and in terms of medicine/frontline. Feels like we've hit a temporary plateau of normalcy where everyone in wider society has gotten used to the virus as a news event, but not something that directly affects you. Meanwhile discussion boards for nurses and doctors are FREAKING out. There's no sign yet that the exponential spread inside the USA has stopped or slowed; if it has we would find out in 2-3 weeks.

DOW is up like, what, 15% in the last 48 hours?


----------



## Dewdman42

Yea the DOW is seriously going to blow up the other direction though....

Today they are reacting to the fact that senate passed the big socialized save every waiter bill (excuse the sarcasm). If this drags out as long as I think it will, then that will all end up being wasted money as they are only delaying the inevitable that is coming and putting us more in debt to do it. The truth is, that people in that situation need to make other plans in their life and find a way to survive that doesn't count on the government. Ameircans still are not ready to face this crisis, we are in denial. And they hope government can bail us out of having to truly face this crisis. But at this point, I think its just deferring the crisis a few months. People need to take charge of their own survival at this point. Find a new way to make money. Don't ask me how, I have no idea, but that is what people will have to do. Or go find family to be with and stay with and hunker down to live through this. Expecting government to continue paying everyone to keep living in denial is just only going to worsen the final outcome, IMHO. 

But I digress....wall street is reacting to that news...and especially with POTUS telling everyone he hopes we can be past this by Easter, wall street is thinking, hey, no problem, big rebound in May.


----------



## MartinH.

Dewdman42 said:


> I don't understand the stock market today at all. I think there is very much a false sense of everything is going to be ok by Easter...the government is going to send everyone money and we'll be planning summer vacation by end of April. I am very much not in agreement with that line of thinking, but that is the messaging being put out yesterday from POTUS. I am more bearish then ever now. Not a bad time to buy gold/silver actually.


----------



## Soundhound

The stock market has add, constantly overreacting. Batten down the hatches.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

NoamL said:


> Bits of info collected from a nonpartisan discussion board for NY doctors. My comments/clarifications in brackets



Scary stuff. When the doctors are this nervous... it makes me very nervous. Stay safe, everyone!


----------



## ptram

Patrick9152 said:


> The ancient Greeks, far ahead of their time, created Democracy "δημοκρατία" which is a good thing, but sometimes the people abuse it.


It wasn't, however, a democracy in the modern sense.

And much of the best that came from Ancient Greece was made under tyrannies. Plato himself was the nephew of a tyrant, and his political theory was one of absolutism.

Paolo


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

This is what it feels like to try and talk my family into taking coronavirus precautions seriously.


----------



## Monkey Man

That's just like all the years I've tried to tell family and friends how to attain true health or overcome various afflictions, with one major difference:

Instead of saying, "Okay... whatever... Got it", they said, "you're nuts", "sounds like bullshit to me" or paid lip service but did nothing. Several of them are now dead as a result.

After over 3 decades of worrying myself sick about the scenario, I finally woke up and realised that if I performed my moral duty by stating my case _just once_, how they responded, if at all, was entirely up to them and not my responsibility. I sure learned the hard way.


----------



## Stringtree

I just watched YouTube videos of buskers. I cried my eyes out. You know that feeling of being close to people and playing music you make out of nothing? All styles, all are welcome. Suddenly there's beauty and consonance between people who don't know each other at all. The crowd gather, the phones come out. Speech from here and there. Every kind of person comes together with a brother and sister to just groove on this thing that's now forbidden. 

On the subway, in a yard, at a party. Remember those times? I couldn't stop the tears. This means the world to me, making music with friends. Being inspired by the unexpected frisson of some hotshot who wants to add his vocals. A new person who wants to hold down a beat. 

I couldn't even see the screen. 

Greg


----------



## gsilbers

NoamL said:


> Crap, I forgot the _main_ reason I wanted to post that. Just goes to show there are so many reasons for us to stay home.
> 
> Mutation. The more people are infected, the more cells the virus lyses (aka making copies of itself). Every reproduction event is an incremental (small) chance for a mutation that makes this disease significantly more lethal. So far we have been pretty lucky in this regard, the virus has mutated slowly & irrelevantly (from the POV of disease severity).




Well, if i was the virus, i would try to mutate to be less lethal since less poeple will be hiding. 
the virus doesnt want to be lethal, its just doing its thing and try to eat, reproduce and live.


----------



## Sears Poncho

gsilbers said:


> its just doing its thing and try to eat, reproduce and live.


The virus is not a living organism. It probably is one of those things that "is but isn't" and really messes with the concept of "living", but it's not "alive".


----------



## Diablo IV

dzilizzi said:


> The whole point of vaccinating healthy people is not to spread the disease to those who can't be vaccinated.



Wow, this POV is the best.


----------



## tmhuud

MauroPantin said:


> Did Julius Caesar die because he was weak or because the ambulance didn't get there in time?



He died because he wasn’t wearing Kevlar.
ALWAYS wear Kevlar.









Kevlar - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## Alex Fraser

Kids have got the symptoms, me and my wife too. No-one has a fever though so fingers crossed.

We spent the weekend transferring my wife's fitness business online, so now my studio has to share space with a treadmill and a "Zoom broadcast suite."

My desk in now in the corner (!) and I have to keep it tidy because it's in camera shot..


----------



## Zedcars

Alex Fraser said:


> Kids have got the symptoms, me and my wife too. No-one has a fever though so fingers crossed.


Don't like. Let's hope the symptoms stay relatively mild.



> We spent the weekend transferring my wife's fitness business online, so now my studio has to share space with a treadmill and a "Zoom broadcast suite."
> 
> My desk in now in the corner (!) and I have to keep it tidy because it's in camera shot..


Like. It's great you have some plans to keep busy and keep the money rolling. Although, don't forget to get plenty of rest!


----------



## Alex Fraser

Zedcars said:


> Don't like. Let's hope the symptoms stay relatively mild.
> 
> 
> Like. It's great you have some plans to keep busy and keep the money rolling. Although, don't forget to get plenty of rest!


Cheers Darren.
Not sure about the money rolling in, but if it keeps everything pointing in the right direction, all good. 
Strange times for sure. How's thing your end?


----------



## Zedcars

Alex Fraser said:


> Cheers Darren.
> Not sure about the money rolling in, but if it keeps everything pointing in the right direction, all good.
> Strange times for sure. How's thing your end?


My end's (desperately trying to resist an arse joke!) OKish. Self-isolating at the mo. Feel like I should be composing non-stop but a bit short on motivation tbh. Hoping to get back into it soon.

We've been FaceTime-ing everyday with my niece, nephew and sis who live in Harrogate, North Yorkshire. Funny thing is we hardly ever do that and I feel closer to them some how. So lucky to have that tech available to us.


----------



## sIR dORT

*Record 3.3 Million Americans Applied for Jobless Benefits*

From WSJ. Very sobering as to the massive secondary effect of this shutdown. I'm starting to wonder (and I don't know yet), how long will it be before the cost of these jobs outweighs the costs of ending the shutdown. I'm not saying one or the other is better, but I know (plenty of you on here too) lots of people who are basically in that category and it's obviously an issue.



Zedcars said:


> So lucky to have that tech available to us.


+1. I can't imagine this shutdown without it.


----------



## gsilbers

Sears Poncho said:


> The virus is not a living organism. It probably is one of those things that "is but isn't" and really messes with the concept of "living", but it's not "alive".




yep, its one of those conundrums. having studied AI and being a fan of star trek, the simple questions like is it alive? is one of those loooong and interesting questions that passes beyond simpel yes and no. 









Are viruses alive?







microbiologysociety.org


----------



## gsilbers

sIR dORT said:


> *Record 3.3 Million Americans Applied for Jobless Benefits*
> 
> From WSJ. Very sobering as to the massive secondary effect of this shutdown. I'm starting to wonder (and I don't know yet), how long will it be before the cost of these jobs outweighs the costs of ending the shutdown. I'm not saying one or the other is better, but I know (plenty of you on here too) lots of people who are basically in that category and it's obviously an issue.
> 
> 
> +1. I can't imagine this shutdown without it.



i think it would of been planned better. europe shuts down in summer for a month in vacations and not an issue. if US planned better, having access to cheap , fast home testing kits since January, ramping up respirators and mask prodcution then a partial banned would of work and not be so extreme as its now. normally the flu gets worse when kids return to school.


I do think it will get crazy bad economically. specially inflation. so much "free" money and lack of products will yeild a huge inflationary spike. saudi arabia is taking advantage of the downturn to further crash oil prices to make US shale companies go bankrupt so later in the long run oil prices can go way up again. plus all the industries crashing like movie theatres, restaurants etc.

but at the same time all the left political movements might get more steam. all the corporations getting bailouts, specially airlines with stock buybacks and poeple getting pissed. and suddenly we all need these minum wage delivery folks who barely can make ends meet who can now easily say.. hey.. how about a union. and all the distribution networks will be checked to ensure in another pandemic or war, there is enough for everyone. and of course, not to mention health care thats alreadyt been an issue sfor so long in the US.
in november there will elections and things seems are going to change dramatically. and maybethings will balance to the other side. because sudeenly there is 2 trillion dollars for bailouts but medicare/single payer healther care was too expensivE?!?


----------



## Loïc D

@Alex Fraser : you & your wife should join talents => Live fitness on live music !

More seriously, take good care !


----------



## gsilbers

Alex Fraser said:


> Kids have got the symptoms, me and my wife too. No-one has a fever though so fingers crossed.
> 
> We spent the weekend transferring my wife's fitness business online, so now my studio has to share space with a treadmill and a "Zoom broadcast suite."
> 
> My desk in now in the corner (!) and I have to keep it tidy because it's in camera shot..



i thought the symptons was cough and fever? 

and most recently lack of smell and taste. 

what symptoms do you have and what city are you located?


----------



## dzilizzi

gsilbers said:


> yep, its one of those conundrums. having studied AI and being a fan of star trek, the simple questions like is it alive? is one of those loooong and interesting questions that passes beyond simpel yes and no.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are viruses alive?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> microbiologysociety.org


Parasites that can't live without a host? Like the girl on Deep Space 9? Only without the brain and the memory..... 

I guess it really comes down to how you define living. The ability to reproduce? Or the ability to survive on one's own, which technically, humans can't even do. Interesting conundrum.


----------



## MartinH.

A friend of mine might lose his job soon. He won't know for sure for a while. Most likely it's gonna mean some financial trouble one way or another for his family.

The two suspected Corona cases at the retirement home where the girlfriend of another friend works, still don't have their test results back. 

I'm a little worried about a friend in Spain, because she is in a high-risk group and has withdrawn from social media because of anxiety issues. I wanted to e-mail her some new music or artworks, but:



Zedcars said:


> Feel like I should be composing non-stop but a bit short on motivation tbh.



Same here. My ability to focus or be creative has taken a nosedive when this thing started.


Ordering groceries online seems to be impossible now. I've refreshed the window with the time slots every 5 minutes to snipe a slot as a new day comes online, but even doing that they were all gone already when I saw them. I suspect people are either using scripts to grab them or hundreds of people sit in front of their computer and hit refresh nonstop.


Silver linings: 
Going grocery shopping an hour before closing time was super nice, because almost no one was on the streets or in the store. 

I might get to play a game online with a friend today, because of his shift to homeoffice and more flexible hours.


----------



## InLight-Tone




----------



## InLight-Tone

KallumS said:


> Let me guess, the Earth is flat too?


Not flat in the slightest, I'm no conspiracy buff, see video above...


----------



## sIR dORT

gsilbers said:


> i think it would of been planned better. europe shuts down in summer for a month in vacations and not an issue. if US planned better, having access to cheap , fast home testing kits since January, ramping up respirators and mask prodcution then a partial banned would of work and not be so extreme as its now. normally the flu gets worse when kids return to school.
> 
> 
> I do think it will get crazy bad economically. specially inflation. so much "free" money and lack of products will yeild a huge inflationary spike. saudi arabia is taking advantage of the downturn to further crash oil prices to make US shale companies go bankrupt so later in the long run oil prices can go way up again. plus all the industries crashing like movie theatres, restaurants etc.
> 
> but at the same time all the left political movements might get more steam. all the corporations getting bailouts, specially airlines with stock buybacks and poeple getting pissed. and suddenly we all need these minum wage delivery folks who barely can make ends meet who can now easily say.. hey.. how about a union. and all the distribution networks will be checked to ensure in another pandemic or war, there is enough for everyone. and of course, not to mention health care thats alreadyt been an issue sfor so long in the US.
> in november there will elections and things seems are going to change dramatically. and maybethings will balance to the other side. because sudeenly there is 2 trillion dollars for bailouts but medicare/single payer healther care was too expensivE?!?


I don't agree with you on everything here, but I would agree that 1) the spending is a little worrisome. I understand that it, to a degree, is necessary, but honestly what worries me most is that after growing in size/scope to fight the virus, the government will not contract back to where it was before it. I _don't_ want this spending and government intervention in the private sector to become more normal than it already is. 2) I agree that we could've taken earlier steps to prepare. But I'm not sure I'm sold on the idea that the shutdown wouldn't have happened if we had prepared better. It might have been shorter than it looks like it's going to be, but I don't think it wouldn't have happened.


----------



## MauroPantin

Lockdown is getting extended here in Argentina at least until mid-April. Bigger fines have been announced to those that do not comply, longer jail sentences if you spread the disease, too. The people who are abroad are now on a waiting list and will not be allowed to come back home. For the time being, all borders are closed and transit is being restricted. Those citizens outside of the country will be assisted by embassies around the world at least for now.

Relief measures for the economic cost of the lockdown are being announced here as well. The main goal is to avoid the economic cost of NOT locking down, which is mainly the loss of life and/or possibly a lot of people on disability, plus the enormous public health bill.

There's also a hidden cost of not closing down which is not obvious but starting to get discussed here, which would be losing health professionals if measures were to be lifted this Friday as originally intended. 

Every country goes to a great extent to train doctors (mine, in particular, college and all other types of education except post-graduate degrees have tuition-free and private options, tuition-free being the most popular and prestigious), and it takes a long time to get people to fill those positions and even more time to get them to be quality professionals with a lot of experience. 

Losing a significant share of those people would lead to a ton of problems in the next few years in terms of availability for surgeries, emergency care, etc. and it would slow down residencies because of ratios (physicians to residents), so replacing would take even more time. In summary, it appears it would be a huge clusterfuck. The same thing would happen with other essential personnel like cops and the military, which would also have very obvious consequences.

Polls show 96% of the people here are all in favor of the current lockdown. I don't ever remember in my life seeing any kind of public decision being so overwhelmingly approved.


----------



## AndyP

Zedcars said:


> Does that mean ya’ll breathing in a bit of a fart I did last year? My gift to the world.
> 
> (the one I did on June 5th was particularly juicy)


Patient Zero found!


----------



## cloudesky

The whole virus situation has inspired me to compose this short song.


----------



## Reid Rosefelt

I just found out that my friend, actor Mark Blum, died of Covid-19. Some of you may know him as Union Bob, the piccolo player on "Mozart in the Jungle," but he's been in a ton of movies and TV shows, most recently "Succession," "You," and "Billions."

I met him on "Desperately Seeking Susan," where he played Rosanna Arquette's husband, and years later I asked him if he would be in a short film I was doing and he said yes without looking at the script or asking what the part would be. He didn't care if I was capable of directing a movie... he just did it out of friendship.

Having somebody you know die, suddenly makes the numbers of the dead less abstract--they are all too personal and all too real. I grieve for Mark and for everybody who is losing friends and family.

Mark in my short:


----------



## JohnG

Sorry Tiger.


----------



## dzilizzi

cloudesky said:


> The whole virus situation has inspired me to compose this short song.



The only problem with this video is it makes me want to visit all these places now that the crowds are gone. I won't, of course. You just never see these places that empty, so I'm hoping that means the self-isolation is working.


----------



## Monkey Man

So sorry to hear of your loss, Tiger.

That sucks big-time, man. My heart goes out to you, mate. ❤


----------



## pawelmorytko

Latest news says UK's Prime Minister Boris Johnson tested positive for the virus


----------



## MartinH.

My girlfriend got called into work today because a co-worker had to go into quarantine because her mom is now a confirmed Covid-19 case. Feels like the impacts are getting closer and I hope it hasn't spread to others working there already.


@TigerTheFrog: My condolences!


----------



## Reid Rosefelt

I was live-and-let-live about Mike Verta. I was wrong. 

He is relentlessly spewing out the message of "Covid-19 is utter bullshit" on Twitter. He is having so much fun. He's having a party. The more people who get upset about it, the better it is. That is the whole point. We are lib-tards. 

He thinks it's an opportunity for hilarity and my friend died. We should all stop and admire what a clever guy he is.

Well I pray that Mike doesn't lose anybody he cares about to Covid-19. I don't want that for anybody and I don't want that for any of you. My friend Mark was 69. I am 67. A lot of people on this forum are not spring chickens. This is not about Grandpa or Grandma. We are the ones that some politicians think are expendable.

If we care about anybody--our family, our friends, we need take to take this seriously. There are _only_ 550,000 Coronavirus cases so far. Hell, that's not even a million. A drop in the bucket, right? Except that it's going to double every few days if we don't stay home.

It's not just numbers of sick and dead. Every number has a story and people who love them.

During a crisis like this, we will find out who we are. We will be revealed. 

What am I going to do in the coming months? What are you going to do? 

Every act of kindness matters. Art matters. You all have a gift and people need music just like they need anything else. Do your part. 

Sorry everybody... very upset this morning.


----------



## pawelmorytko

The thing about Mike Verta is that he is contradicting himself on Twitter saying things like

"Also, quit watching the news, and don't believe anything your government tells you, ever. Start there."

and then

"If this was even remotely serious the President would be giving press conferences from a fucking bunker. All the politicians would've bugged out to their safe places in NZ. Do your part: Catch COVID and recover. Sooner the better."

So if you're not going to listen to what the govt says, why does it even matter where the president is giving conferences from. Not like he would take it seriously even if the president was actually in a bunker.

Also, is Mike really actually assuming that the president and the govt actually know what to do? This is new, strange and scary to all of us. The govt are just making decisions as they are going through this and learning more and more each day. Everyone just has to take the word of the scientists and believe in them and listen to what they are saying. But Mike refuses to do something simple as that, and believes he has a simpler solution, the expert that he is, which is "Do your part: Catch COVID and recover. Sooner the better."


----------



## Sears Poncho

TigerTheFrog said:


> Sorry everybody... very upset this morning.


You have every right to be. So sorry that you lost a friend, stay well.



TigerTheFrog said:


> He is relentlessly spewing out the message of "Covid-19 is utter bullshit" on Twitter. He is having so much fun. He's having a party. The more people who get upset about it, the better it is. That is the whole point. We are lib-tards.


He's entitled to his opinions, however vile and mean-spirited. I'm entitled to mine as well: I find Mike Verta to be a highly overrated assclown who wouldn't know a melody if it bit him on the ass.


----------



## pawelmorytko

Also I don't know if Mike's been watching too much The Walking Dead, but not every pandemic has to be on that big a scale to be taken seriously...

And Mike if you're reading this, please stop using your afternoon grocery shop where likeminded people like yourself are casually shopping as if nothing ever happened as data and proof for how serious the situation is, and actually go to the hospitals and see how the doctors and nurses are struggling, how the families who can't even say goodbye to their dying relatives are grieving, and the sheer number of beds taken by patients with the virus.


----------



## MartinH.

In case anyone lost track because the posts got moved, the continued Mike Verta discussion belongs here: 






A call to Sample Developers Spinoff - Mike Verta's mocking the seriousness of Coronanavirus


If they are willing to sell a new library until March 31st for ** dollars/euros, then would it be a hardship for them to accept the same amount until this pandemic gets under control? I think Mike Verta allready does this. 40% off with: COUPON CODE: coronahysteria https://mikeverta.com/



vi-control.net


----------



## NoamL

Over the past 2 weeks gradually stopped paying attention to science/virology message boards - instead medicine, nursing & even supply chain.

Luckily, supply chain seems to be going okay from what I can decipher.

Not so great with nursing and medicine. All the discussions on nursing board yesterday were "Can I be legally mandated to work." Some nurses don't want to work without PPE and are calling out their hospital administration for the BS of saying certain PPE isn't necessary until an obviously-COVID19 patient has a positive test. A few others just don't want to work, "I didn't sign up for this." Not all nurses are heroes... Healthcare workers are scared and vulnerable just like we are, and being asked to go on the front lines EVERY DAY. Doctors are discussing how to have DNR conversations with families and if/when hospitals will make DNR standard policy for COVID patients. This is not heartlessness, it is because intubating patients, performing CPR, etc puts healthcare workers at risk from the spray of fluids. HCW's are increasingly seeing "coding" patients (the procedure by which hospitals do everything they can to keep someone alive, you know, like in cheesy network dramas) as pointless and increasing the risk to the same doctors that will need to see the next patient. Survival rates on intubation are really bad. The idea of "we need more ventilators" has filtered into pop consciousness over the last week - you don't want to be _on_ a ventilator. There is still no clear therapy for this disease other than desperately supporting the patient with more and more invasive oxygenation. Hydroxychloroquine was tried in a double blind trial in China and had no significance. From what I saw, the discussion was more positive around remdesivir but dr's are doubting there will be a needed supply for all patients by the time anything is clinically proven.

USA now has the most official cases in the world, surpassing China.

We will have the highest fatalities of any OECD country.


----------



## Alex Fraser

gsilbers said:


> i thought the symptons was cough and fever?
> 
> and most recently lack of smell and taste.
> 
> what symptoms do you have and what city are you located?


Don't worry, I'm deep in the darkest Englandshire. 
My 9 month old "likely has Coronavirus" according to the NHS health pro we spoke to, but seems to be managing OK. Here in the UK the NHS isn't testing anyway except in extreme cases. Or if you're royalty/the prime minister. Rest of the family sporting coughs and temperatures. Fun times.

Sorry to hear, Tiger. Yep - there's way too much mis-information being thrown around.


----------



## mikeh-375

fingers crossed for you and yours Alex.


----------



## dzilizzi

My sister works in an ER as a nurse. They have limited supplies and are told they basically get once mask per shift.


----------



## JohnG

sorry @Alex Fraser 

It sounds frightening.


----------



## mikeh-375

dzilizzi said:


> My sister works in an ER as a nurse. They have limited supplies and are told they basically get once mask per shift.


Dizzy lizzie, did you hear about some of our angels, having to _share_ masks? I vote we take the Great out of Great Britain.


----------



## dzilizzi

Alex Fraser said:


> Don't worry, I'm deep in the darkest Englandshire.
> My 9 month old "likely has Coronavirus" according to the NHS health pro we spoke to, but seems to be managing OK. Here in the UK the NHS isn't testing anyway except in extreme cases. Or if you're royalty/the prime minister. Rest of the family sporting coughs and temperatures. Fun times.
> 
> Sorry to hear, Tiger. Yep - there's way too much mis-information being thrown around.


I hope you and your family feel better soon.


----------



## MartinH.

NoamL said:


> A few others just don't want to work, "I didn't sign up for this." Not all nurses are heroes... Healthcare workers are scared and vulnerable just like we are, and being asked to go on the front lines EVERY DAY.



To be honest I can sympathize. It's a tough job at the best of times.



The two suspected cases at the retirement home where the girlfriend of a close friend of mine works, turned out to be negative for Covid19 luckily. 

Someone told me today that his wife works in a cancer ward (cancer station? not sure what the right term in english is) in a big hospital and it has been entirely converted to be a covid-19 station. The amount by which resources and availability of other non-covid medical resources are diminished during this crisis legit scares me. I feel like safety nets we took for granted our entire lives are being moved elsewhere.

Afaik part of the strategy in Germany is to use the time we buy with fairly strict lockdown to ramp up capacity for treating covid-19 patients and doing further research on how to treat them best, before slowly ramping social activity back up, starting with getting kids back to school because apparently delaying an entire year of school and having one year of no students leaving school to enter the work-force would have too bad/unpredictable knock-on effects.


----------



## dzilizzi

mikeh-375 said:


> Dizzy lizzie, did you hear about some of our angels, having to _share_ masks? I vote we take the Great out of Great Britain.


So if one has it, they both get it? That is just wrong. 

I found a YouTube video of a lady making masks using a MERV-13 furnace filter. Other than the filter, everything else is stuff I have at home. I may have to make a few and send a couple to my sister.


----------



## Alex Fraser

Thanks all. We're OK compared to a lot of folks. We live in a nice part of the world with a publicly funded hospital less than a mile down the road. The NHS are watching for breathing difficulties as a trigger point for further action. The health pros are just as concerned that we're potentially walking virus bombs, ready to pass the infection onwards.

So, whilst the kids are running fevers and coughing for England, as there's no breaking difficulties, we remain in isolation. Which is what were doing anyway. Thank god for Disney+.


----------



## dzilizzi

Alex Fraser said:


> Thanks all. We're OK compared to a lot of folks. We live in a nice part of the world with a publicly funded hospital less than a mile down the road. The NHS are watching for breathing difficulties as a trigger point for further action. The health pros are just as concerned that we're potentially walking virus bombs, ready to pass the infection onwards.
> 
> So, whilst the kids are running fevers and coughing for England, as there's no breaking difficulties, we remain in isolation. Which is what were doing anyway. Thank god for Disney+.


Disney to the rescue! 

Hopefully it doesn't get any worse. Though watching your kids be miserable and not being able to do anything for it is hard.


----------



## Sears Poncho

How I know the "Lockdown" might be getting to me: The Sweetwater sales guy called, and I actually talked to him, first time ever.


----------



## dzilizzi

On a more positive note, my local Costco is still doing deliveries of fresh foods through Instacart. Of course, they couldn't guaratee everything would be in stock when they finally get to picking it. Keeping my fingers crossed it all comes.


----------



## rgames

Those of us in the US, let's not forget that while the Federal government certainly has a role to play state and local governments are the most logical decision makers for public health issues like Covid-19.

Pressure at the state and local level yields much more benefit than railing against Trump or his administration. If you really want to have an effect then balance your action against the value it provides.

rgames


----------



## Dewdman42

All true but on the other hand people are traveling across state borders and spreading it. Florida wants to block New Yorkers from coming and he’s being told that he can’t. So the federal gov still has a responsibility here to some degree, though I agree it’s not feasible for the feds to enforce anything coast to coast at once


----------



## patrick76

rgames said:


> Pressure at the state and local level yields much more benefit than railing against Trump or his administration. If you really want to have an effect then balance your action against the value it provides.


Pressure from whom?


----------



## JohnG

I think Richard makes a generally good point -- local government is often closer to the problem.

Nevertheless, there is a crucial role for the Federal government, one that I don't see being fully realised, at least so far -- hope springs eternal.

*What Should Central Governments Do?*

One role of any national government is to help by offering a central node for providers -- manufacturers of gowns, masks, ventilators -- to help direct traffic. You need the right balance of hoses, devices, and other gear, and if the central government doesn't help coordinate, you end up with shortages in one place and surfeits in another. You also need some form of pricing discipline so that poor states aren't placed even further behind those with money, an issue in any country, but quite conspicuous in China, USA, India and many others.

A second role for national governments is trustworthy information. Under normal circumstances, the CDC or similar, national scientific body would give consistent information -- including uncertainties -- and help politicians with decisions about what to do. Instead, we see an awful lot of talk by non-scientists that sows confusion.

*Inevitable Tradeoffs*

I do think there is a role for balance between economics and health, but right now I don't see that balance being struck in a calculated, consistent way.

As in everyday life, we don't regulate away _all_ risk; it's too expensive. There is a certain amount of dirt and vermin poop in coffee and cereal -- that's how it is. Cars are not engineered to be 'as safe as possible.' Nevertheless, in one country after another, I don't see decisions being made on thought-out principles; more shoot-from-the-hip and overly personal in some cases. In other cases, we see wishful thinking and uninformed bravado.

Moreover, some narratives out there are predicated on as-yet-unproven hypotheses, such as that those who have the virus become permanently immune. That apparently didn't prove true in 1919 and it isn't always true today with other flu viruses besides COVID-19.

Probably too much to hope for at the moment.

I fear for residents of crowded, poor countries, especially if there are regional politics that are ugly -- I'm sure we can all think of countries like that. Alas, the US not necessarily excluded.


----------



## dzilizzi

Dewdman42 said:


> All true but on the other hand people are traveling across state borders and spreading it. Florida wants to block New Yorkers from coming and he’s being told that he can’t. So the federal gov still has a responsibility here to some degree, though I agree it’s not feasible for the feds to enforce anything coast to coast at once


Actually under the Commerce Clause, Congress has control over interstate commerce, which would include allowing tourists to go between states. So, unless you are going home, going to stay/help with elderly parents/grandparents/sick family memeber, or legit business travel, Congress could limit it.


----------



## Dewdman42

I would think so. I was watching a NY lawyer on tv last night argue that the FL governor is overstepping his bounds and that it will become a constitutional case, etc.. I guess there are laws already in place that prevent states from enforcing any bias against citizens from other states including blocking them from entering or putting them under mandatory quarantine upon arrival.

No idea where that is going...


----------



## patrick76

JohnG said:


> I think Richard makes a generally good point -- local government is often closer to the problem.


I don't really see his point, at least not without a follow up from him. As far as I can tell, he is basically stating that instead of "railing against Trump", we should be applying "pressure at the state and local level". Who is he talking about? Individual citizens? State governments? As an individual, I'm quite certain my actions will have zero effect on local, state, or the federal government in this situation. I can donate $ and listen to what the experts advise me to do and that's about it. Or, perhaps the implication is that state governments should not rail against Trump? If that's the idea, I don't agree with the characterization of that action at all. 

I guess what confuses me is that I didn't see anyone railing against Trump (recently) in this thread OR stating that state and local governments should not play a strong role in the response to this crisis. Totally possible I missed something of course (I haven't read all of the last few pages of this thread).


----------



## dzilizzi

Dewdman42 said:


> I would think so. I was watching a NY lawyer on tv last night argue that the FL governor is overstepping his bounds and that it will become a constitutional case, etc.. I guess there are laws already in place that prevent states from enforcing any bias against citizens from other states including blocking them from entering or putting them under mandatory quarantine upon arrival.
> 
> No idea where that is going...


This is true. They have to block all tourists. They can't specify just from a certain state. But technically, if they come on a plane, they have likely been exposed anyway.


----------



## dzilizzi

patrick76 said:


> I don't really see his point, at least not without a follow up from him. As far as I can tell, he is basically stating that instead of "railing against Trump", we should be applying "pressure at the state and local level". Who is he talking about? Individual citizens? State governments? As an individual, I'm quite certain my actions will have zero effect on local, state, or the federal government in this situation. I can donate $ and listen to what the experts advise me to do and that's about it. Or, perhaps the implication is that state governments should not rail against Trump? If that's the idea, I don't agree with the characterization of that action at all.
> 
> I guess what confuses me is that I didn't see anyone railing against Trump (recently) in this thread OR stating that state and local governments should not play a strong role in the response to this crisis. Totally possible I missed something of course (I haven't read all of the last few pages of this thread).


Ah, you want the part that was moved to the political thread. 

We've been trying to keep this non-political and just about how we are personally affected.


----------



## Dewdman42

I think there is a law somewhere that states that can't block any american from entering their state. period. Any american can cross the border of any state for any reason they see fit...tourist or not. By the law. And apparently if he tries to do it, he will have ACLU lawyers all over his ass in short order.


----------



## JohnG

Dewdman42 said:


> the FL governor is overstepping his bounds and that it will become a constitutional case, etc



I think @dzilizzi is likely correct about the Commerce Clause providing authority for Congress (the Federal government) to prohibit interstate movement. I doubt state governors have the _legal_ authority to do it, but a bunch of state police and roadblocks on the freeways would, for most people, inhibit movement, irrespective of constitutional or statutory backup.


----------



## Sears Poncho

I had a symphony cancel 11 gigs on me. Just found out that they will pay us half pay for them, which is excellent and unexpected. I don't think they "have" to, there is usually some kind of _Force Majeure _clause in contracts. My good news for the day/week/month.


----------



## Dewdman42

JohnG said:


> I think @dzilizzi is likely correct about the Commerce Clause providing authority for Congress (the Federal government) to prohibit interstate movement. I doubt state governors have the _legal_ authority to do it, but a bunch of state police and roadblocks on the freeways would, for most people, inhibit movement, irrespective of constitutional or statutory backup.



Movement of commerce. not people...and...it would have to be federal CONGRESS that does it...not the governor of FL.


----------



## JohnG

Dewdman42 said:


> Movement of commerce. not people...and...it would have to be federal CONGRESS that does it...not the governor of FL.



I did say Congress, Dewd. And if you have read any constitutional decisions, the definition of 'inter-state commerce' has been very generously stretched over the last 200 years or so. It's a lot more than what I think of as 'commerce.'


----------



## Dewdman42

great then we agree! I was only pointing out that Richard's points aobuu the local governments, while true in many ways...cannot address issues such as these which must be managed by our federal government. 

The commerce clauses are where all the laws concerning national quarantines, etc.. are found and the federal government does have the power to exercise that kind of isolation of people. But it will need to be directed by them.

There are in fact specific laws on the books that give US citizens a constitutional right to cross state borders. No state can block other states without violating that law. If FL tries to do so, attorneys will come out of nowhere and demand that federal judges open the border back up. 

The Fed government has also not blocked people from crossing state lines at any time since 1918.

FL is now desperate because while they can tell their citizens to stay home, they can't stop NYers from flying or driving into their state and spreading the disease. This is in fact where fed government does need to be more proactive and cannot leave it to the states to decide.


----------



## patrick76

dzilizzi said:


> Ah, you want the part that was moved to the political thread.
> 
> We've been trying to keep this non-political and just about how we are personally affected.


I really don't, I swear. I was just responding to what was posted. Just don't really follow it, that's all.


----------



## dzilizzi

Dewdman42 said:


> great then we agree! I was only pointing out that Richard's points aobuu the local governments, while true in many ways...cannot address issues such as these which must be managed by our federal government.
> 
> The commerce clauses are where all the laws concerning national quarantines, etc.. are found and the federal government does have the power to exercise that kind of isolation of people. But it will need to be directed by them.
> 
> There are in fact specific laws on the books that give US citizens a constitutional right to cross state borders. No state can block other states without violating that law. If FL tries to do so, attorneys will come out of nowhere and demand that federal judges open the border back up.
> 
> The Fed government has also not blocked people from crossing state lines at any time since 1918.
> 
> FL is now desperate because while they can tell their citizens to stay home, they can't stop NYers from flying or driving into their state and spreading the disease. This is in fact where fed government does need to be more proactive and cannot leave it to the states to decide.


Problem is it is Congress that has to agree on it. And initiate it. The governors and president can request it. They aren't so good at doing that.


----------



## dzilizzi

patrick76 said:


> I really don't, I swear. I was just responding to what was posted. Just don't really follow it, that's all.


I read a bit of it. You don't want to go there. Worse than a car wreck. Or nails on a chalkboard. Just, yeah, no.


----------



## patrick76

dzilizzi said:


> I read a bit of it. You don't want to go there. Worse than a car wreck. Or nails on a chalkboard. Just, yeah, no.


Oh, I've participated in the politics part of the forum so I'm definitely aware  I don't mind a little heated discussion sometimes, but it is easy for things to quickly go downhill.


----------



## BlackDorito

Too good to pass up:






... serious discussion should now continue.


----------



## Kevin Fortin

I have been going to the store less often than I used to, and now plan to avoid going at all for two weeks or more if possible (most recent shopping trip was Wednesday the 25th).

I'm luckier than many in that I have been retired for a couple years and am kind of a recluse anyway, so not much of a change in income or lifestyle.

I had been getting into the habit of going for a bike ride almost every morning for the exercise and just to get myself out of the house. I think I'll just do that once or twice a week now. If I see any walkers I'll keep a safe distance.

I was planning to sell a few items on Reverb/Ebay/Amazon to build up my cash reserves, but now I think it's better to avoid shipping (outgoing or incoming) to reduce opportunities for exposure, and also to reduce stress on the shipping employees.


----------



## cloudesky

dzilizzi said:


> The only problem with this video is it makes me want to visit all these places now that the crowds are gone. I won't, of course. You just never see these places that empty, so I'm hoping that means the self-isolation is working.



I agree, seeing the empty streets makes it tempting to visit. Hopefully everyone is doing well and staying safe.


----------



## MartinH.




----------



## mikeh-375

we brits have had enough...


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

That wasn't written by John Cleese. Not even in 2013. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/terrorist-threat-alert/

One thing this generation is utterly hopeless at, is looking at an image with some text, and a name at the top or bottom, and thinking:
'I'll just check whether this text was in fact written by the person cited'.


----------



## MartinH.

The daughter of a friend likely has Covid 19 now. She lives together with a doctor who has been tested positive for it.





Richard Wilkinson said:


> That wasn't written by John Cleese. Not even in 2013. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/terrorist-threat-alert/
> 
> One thing this generation is utterly hopeless at, is looking at an image with some text, and a name at the top or bottom, and thinking:
> 'I'll just check whether this text was in fact written by the person cited'.



So true! Sorry, couldn't resist putting this into a meme template:


----------



## Pietro

Anyone else noticed the number of fake news and misinformation spread on the internet multiplied by 100x the day the people in the US got infected?

- Piotr


----------



## stixman

lost my step dad to it yesterday...he was 80 and very ill :(


----------



## mikeh-375

Richard Wilkinson said:


> That wasn't written by John Cleese. Not even in 2013. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/terrorist-threat-alert/
> 
> *One thing this generation is utterly hopeless at*, is looking at an image with some text, and a name at the top or bottom, and thinking:
> 'I'll just check whether this text was in fact written by the person cited'.



Include my generation too and I'll take it on the chin....mea culpa...it is still funny though and much needed at present, even if it's only a momentary laugh.


----------



## mikeh-375

stixman said:


> lost my step dad to it yesterday...he was 80 and very ill :(



and in the light of that , my condolences and apologies @stixman. Perhaps this is not the place for levity.


----------



## MartinH.

stixman said:


> lost my step dad to it yesterday...he was 80 and very ill :(


Sorry to hear that, my condolences!




Pietro said:


> Anyone else noticed the number of fake news and misinformation spread on the internet multiplied by 100x the day the people in the US got infected?
> 
> - Piotr



Not really, because I don't use facebook. 




mikeh-375 said:


> Perhaps this is not the place for levity.



Not for levity, but we'll need a ton of gallows humor to get through this I think.


----------



## jonathanparham

stixman said:


> lost my step dad to it yesterday...he was 80 and very ill :(


very sorry


----------



## Ashermusic

stixman said:


> lost my step dad to it yesterday...he was 80 and very ill :(


Sorry for your loss.


----------



## Quasar

Pietro said:


> Anyone else noticed the number of fake news and misinformation spread on the internet multiplied by 100x the day the people in the US got infected?
> 
> - Piotr


Alas, it's inevitable, it's ALL going to happen: fake cures, government or [insert target ethnic group of choice] conspiracy theories. At times of extreme crisis, both the very best and worst of people is spotlighted. Just how it is.


----------



## JohnG

stixman said:


> lost my step dad to it yesterday...he was 80 and very ill :(



Sorry @stixman


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

stixman said:


> lost my step dad to it yesterday...he was 80 and very ill :(



sorry to hear this, my condolences.


----------



## Leslie Fuller

stixman said:


> lost my step dad to it yesterday...he was 80 and very ill :(



So sorry for your loss.


----------



## stixman

His ward was on lockdown 3 weeks ago due to 2 cases on his ward... never got to see his loved ones in that time :( Thank you for your messages and keep safe x


----------



## Soundhound

This is a thread about how it affects us personally. A short as possible digression needed as background if I could:

rGames post might have been well meaning. The most positive interpretation would be: don't waste your time complaining about a criminal, and criminally incompetent charlatan, put your energies where they can do some good.

If that's the intention then great, but I don't agree. Donald Trump is going to be directly responsible for tens of thousands of deaths, I pray it will not be more than that. His idiotic right wing ideology (which he doesn't believe in, he doesn't believe in anything, he just goes with whatever gets him attention) and his brutal incompetence and ignorance led him to dismantle the pandemic unit of the security council. We were prepared for something like this, and he shut down the mechanism. To save money. He then ignored the warnings, refused information and help from the WHO. When the outbreak began, he joked about it, lied about it. He is now playing states against each other for resources.

Back to how it affects us. My wife has been in critical care after open heart surgery. She had several setbacks but is now progressing. It will be a slow recovery, taking time but all signals point to her making a full recovery. She was in ICU for several weeks, and is now in a rehab hospital. They take every precaution there because of the covid19 epidemic, so I cannot even visit her there, which is hard for her, though normally she'd be happy as hell to be rid of me for a nice long stretch, right now she needs all the support I can give her.

If she were to get the novel coronavirus, it would most likely kill her. Though normally tough as hell, she's very frail right now and there are pulmonary issues being worked through along with everything else.

So this is how this is affecting me. If she gets the virus and dies, then as far as I'm concerned Donald Trump fucking killed her.

We knew this guy was a menace, and that if anything really bad happened, we'd be in a lot of trouble. Well it did, and we are. In the 80s and 90s he was a joke, a famous failure. Then he became a sleezy tv character, the perfect celebrity for the increasingly stupid, dumbed down right wing america. Now he is about to add mass murder to his resume. If it includes my wife, I'm going to get mad.


----------



## Ashermusic

I am with you, Soundhound. I am not a believer in prayer but I am hoping for the best possible outcome for your wife.


----------



## patrick76

I had a service call today at a storage warehouse next to a hospital in the metro-Detroit area. The hospital has become a Covid-19 only hospital due to the surge in cases. Upon arrival, I called my on site contact to get access into the warehouse and was told that the door was open because they were doing some construction inside. He then told me that they were converting the warehouse into a makeshift morgue. It was quite disturbing. The building is large, and I don't know if they are converting part of it or all of it, but the sight and idea of this just left me with an awful, sad feeling.

Stay safe everyone.


----------



## Soundhound

Thanks Jay. I also don't believe in prayer, I hear you, and much appreciated. 



Ashermusic said:


> I am with you, Soundhound. I am not a believer in prayer but I am hoping for the best possible outcome for your wife.


----------



## mikeh-375

rooting for you both @Soundhound


----------



## jonathanparham

Soundhound said:


> If she were to get the novel coronavirus, it would most likely kill her. Though normally tough as hell, she's very frail right now and there are pulmonary issues being worked through along with everything else.


Huge believer in the Power of Arts, God, and Prayer. Praying for your family.


----------



## Reid Rosefelt

In terms of the federal government vs states:

As my governor Andrew Cuomo says more than once every day, he is bidding against other governors. He wants to pay $4 for a mask, another bids $5, then another governor bids $6. They are all bidding against the federal government. This is not the way to do things, and it will cost a lot of lives.

All this purchasing of medical supplies should be done by the federal government and then dispersed according to need. My state, New York, has half of the cases, but we got 1% of our request. Other states got 30% - 100% of their requests. This is murder by politics as usual, no way around it.

So I don't think this is Trump-bashing. I think it's reasonable that this point should be made over and over and over until the federal government does step up. And Cuomo is doing exactly that every morning.


----------



## Dewdman42

I also wish the feds would do more and certainly the states bidding against each other is one thing that was not thought of ahead of time or they would have tried to work around that from the get go..

In defense of the feds: Its not necessarily that easy to do as you/we wish. It takes manpower to accomplish everything. There are many explanations made for why each state should manage their own situation independently because trying to manage the entire country of 330million people centrally may not even be a realistic expectation of what is possible.

Also President Trump is just one guy. he can't micro manage and control every single facet of this or any other nationwide situation. And in fact if he tried to, there would probably be civil unrest over it. Fema and numerous other bureaucrats are involved at many different levels. Part of the reason our government is specifically designed for local jurisdictions to handle situations like this as much as possible is because its simply not even logistically possibly for the federal government to come out of nowhere while the whole country is under duress at the same time and manage the whole thing. The localities are in fact the best ones to manage their own jurisdictions. Just as Cuomo is doing!

Where I think in retrospect we can look at how maybe the federal government could have provided, or could from here forward, provide more centralized influence, would be for example the control of travel between states. Perhaps a stronger message earlier on about telling people to stay home (shrug), but I think Americans themselves are to blame for not social distancing themselves...not the federal government or POTUS. It would not matter in the least who the POTUS was/is. Americans don't want to accept that reality and they will always try to push the limit and see if they can get away with more then the leaders are telling them to do. That is our nature and the nature of most western democracies actually. Acquisition of masks and things like that...not an easy problem. There aren't enough of them. Perhaps the feds should have bought them all first and told the governors to wait. But then some govs would have complained that the big brother feds were blocking them! And they'd probably have a constitutional basis to make a law suit over it I might add.

POTUS has negotiated with GM to build hundreds of thousands of ventilators and with 3M to manufacture millions of face masks. Its not accurate to say they are doing "nothing". They are doing lots. But it is simply not an easy problem to support 330 million people from 50 different states...each state having a different opinion about where the assets should be going first! Cuomo obviously thinks it should all go to him first...and maybe very well so...but if and when it slams the next state...if Cuomo has all the "stuff", then they will be screaming bloody murder.

I'm sure we will see some good things happening from POTUS, Fema, CDC and local jurisdictions...and we will see some mistakes made...but the finger pointing about one side being the devil that is killing everyone...is simply not accurate and not helpful.

kind regards


----------



## Reid Rosefelt

You don't have to get in touch with all 330 million people, just the companies who make and sell medical protective gear. And entities that have protective gear that they want to donate.

All Trump has to do is go on TV and say: from now on, sell or donate EVERYTHING to FEMA. Then FEMA would look at how many cases there are in the US and give them where there is need. This is what FEMA is trained to do. This is what every governor and expert wants to be done. 

185,270 Coronavirus cases in the US. 75,795 in New York. Doesn't it make sense to sent the fair proportion there? And the same to all the states who have the most need right now, like New Jersey (18,596), Michigan (7615), California (7453), and so on.

We need to get rid of politics at a moment like this, like we did after 9/11. No more Republicans or Democrats, Red or Blue. The Coronavirus has already killed more people than died on 9/11. We lost 3000 people that day. We will soon be losing a LOT more than 3000 people a day, and it will double and double after that.


----------



## Dewdman42

I am not saying that anyone needs to "get in touch with" 330 million people. I am saying that trying to manage the situation across 50 states all at once is simply not how our society was designed. We are a nation of states....and numerous different levels. like it or not, that is what we are. California needs to take care of California the same way the EU can't do much to help Italy.


----------



## Dewdman42

TigerTheFrog said:


> 185,270 Coronavirus cases in the US. 75,795 in New York. Doesn't it make sense to sent the fair proportion there? And the same to all the states who have the most need right now, like New Jersey (18,596), Michigan (7615), California (7453), and so on.



Central Planning is not what we do here. That is what Communist and Socialist governments do. it is simply not realistic to think that suddenly in an emergency our country can snap to attention and behave more like a centrally planned one. They are trying to do what they can do. They will not be able to do everything. 

Who decides what the correct proportion of resources should be? Whomever tries to decide that will be crucified by the mob. 

The sheer magnitude of this task is not fully appreciated by many. They seem to think our federal government can snap their fingers and save everyone like in the movies. It just isn't designed that way. Our society is based on the notion of people taking care of themselves. that isn't to say they aren't going to try to help. They just gave away $2T! But we are not built, with systems in place to handle a situation like this at that magnitude. Simple as that.


----------



## dzilizzi

TigerTheFrog said:


> In terms of the federal government vs states:
> 
> As my governor Andrew Cuomo says more than once every day, he is bidding against other governors. He wants to pay $4 for a mask, another bids $5, then another governor bids $6. They are all bidding against the federal government. This is not the way to do things, and it will cost a lot of lives.
> 
> All this purchasing of medical supplies should be done by the federal government and then dispersed according to need. My state, New York, has half of the cases, but we got 1% of our request. Other states got 30% - 100% of their requests. This is murder by politics as usual, no way around it.
> 
> So I don't think this is Trump-bashing. I think it's reasonable that this point should be made over and over and over until the federal government does step up. And Cuomo is doing exactly that every morning.


I wonder how many of these states need these things yet. Visions of toilet paper and hand sanitizer all over again.


----------



## Dewdman42

The governor of my state just said on TV yesterday that my state (utah) only has 500 ICU units in the entire state!

I can assure you we are way off the radar at the moment because we are in the early stages....but in a month from now...we will need them badly too...just as badly as NYC, and I do not think for one second that NY will be done with them by then either.


----------



## Soundhound

Sorry this is utterly beside the point. Arguing about the smartest, most efficient division of responsibilities during this crisis would be a critical and necessary discussion to have, if there were not an irresponsible lunatic in the white house. Thanks to his ignorance and political posturing, Trump is not just not helping, he has been actively obstructing any coherent, effective action.

He most certainly did not enlist GM to make ventilators. They were already in the process of doing just that, he got involved, got his feelings hurt and set the process back. He's a f*cking idiot:









Inside G.M.’s Race to Build Ventilators, Before Trump’s Attack (Published 2020)


The automaker and its partner, Ventec, had spent more than a week figuring out how to make thousands of the lifesaving devices when the White House said G.M. was “wasting time.”




www.nytimes.com





Governors are having to praise him in their press conferences for fear that he will withhold the material, funds and assistance they need. It's been the same all the way through this nightmare of a presidency. After discovering how inept, how dangerous he is expert after expert has found they can either resign in protest, or kiss his ass so that at least their expertise is still in the picture. Fauci and Birx seem to be in this position at the moment. He governs by blackmail, operates like a low ranking, inept Jersey City mob captain.

Having a reasoned discussion about what is and what is not the responsibility of states and feds here is utterly fatuous. The government may be able to get us out of this with no more than 100k dead, I f*cking hope so. But I am so sick of people have discussions about how government should operate when Donald Trump is in office and the GOP is willing to do whatever the hell he wants, knowing full well what a danger he presents. This is a crisis, not a time for pleasant theorizing.




Dewdman42 said:


> I also wish the feds would do more and certainly the states bidding against each other is one thing that was not thought of ahead of time or they would have tried to work around that from the get go..
> 
> In defense of the feds: Its not necessarily that easy to do as you/we wish. It takes manpower to accomplish everything. There are many explanations made for why each state should manage their own situation independently because trying to manage the entire country of 330million people centrally may not even be a realistic expectation of what is possible.
> 
> Also President Trump is just one guy. he can't micro manage and control every single facet of this or any other nationwide situation. And in fact if he tried to, there would probably be civil unrest over it. Fema and numerous other bureaucrats are involved at many different levels. Part of the reason our government is specifically designed for local jurisdictions to handle situations like this as much as possible is because its simply not even logistically possibly for the federal government to come out of nowhere while the whole country is under duress at the same time and manage the whole thing. The localities are in fact the best ones to manage their own jurisdictions. Just as Cuomo is doing!
> 
> Where I think in retrospect we can look at how maybe the federal government could have provided, or could from here forward, provide more centralized influence, would be for example the control of travel between states. Perhaps a stronger message earlier on about telling people to stay home (shrug), but I think Americans themselves are to blame for not social distancing themselves...not the federal government or POTUS. It would not matter in the least who the POTUS was/is. Americans don't want to accept that reality and they will always try to push the limit and see if they can get away with more then the leaders are telling them to do. That is our nature and the nature of most western democracies actually. Acquisition of masks and things like that...not an easy problem. There aren't enough of them. Perhaps the feds should have bought them all first and told the governors to wait. But then some govs would have complained that the big brother feds were blocking them! And they'd probably have a constitutional basis to make a law suit over it I might add.
> 
> POTUS has negotiated with GM to build hundreds of thousands of ventilators and with 3M to manufacture millions of face masks. Its not accurate to say they are doing "nothing". They are doing lots. But it is simply not an easy problem to support 330 million people from 50 different states...each state having a different opinion about where the assets should be going first! Cuomo obviously thinks it should all go to him first...and maybe very well so...but if and when it slams the next state...if Cuomo has all the "stuff", then they will be screaming bloody murder.
> 
> I'm sure we will see some good things happening from POTUS, Fema, CDC and local jurisdictions...and we will see some mistakes made...but the finger pointing about one side being the devil that is killing everyone...is simply not accurate and not helpful.
> 
> kind regards


----------



## Soundhound

Kind of you, thank you. 



mikeh-375 said:


> rooting for you both @Soundhound


----------



## C.R. Rivera

TigerTheFrog said:


> In terms of the federal government vs states:
> 
> As my governor Andrew Cuomo says more than once every day, he is bidding against other governors. He wants to pay $4 for a mask, another bids $5, then another governor bids $6. They are all bidding against the federal government. This is not the way to do things, and it will cost a lot of lives.
> 
> All this purchasing of medical supplies should be done by the federal government and then dispersed according to need. My state, New York, has half of the cases, but we got 1% of our request. Other states got 30% - 100% of their requests. This is murder by politics as usual, no way around it.
> 
> So I don't think this is Trump-bashing. I think it's reasonable that this point should be made over and over and over until the federal government does step up. And Cuomo is doing exactly that every morning.


An example of this is the two US Navy hospital ships. New York, Washington, and California all requested one but someone was going to be disappointed. What you had was each governor arguing somewhat "that my population is better than your population." The Navy, and I am retired Navy, and the administration was going to draw heat on this question anyway. 

I have already seen threads that imply that new hospital ships should have been built starting in January 2017. It can take as long as ten years to build a ship, depending on its mission. The USNS Mercy and USNS Comfort are very advanced in their age. So when do new hospital ships get contracted, AND, ready for service? And, even more to the point, does every state with a seacoast (15) or access to the sea via a river (ca 20), get an individual hospital ship? And, will any Congress, Democrat or Republican, agree to fund such a construction program as well as the necessary annual operating and manning budgets? I think not, it is generally not a "pork barrel" project since it bears no immediate fruit nor does it bode well if the next plague is 25 years out.


----------



## InLight-Tone

As I've mentioned my wife and I are full time RVers that stay primarily in the Thousand Trails camping system. As part of that system, we can stay up to 3 weeks at each park, then we are required to move to a different one. We can make reservations up to 6 months in advance so it's pretty great overall.

We are currently outside of Santa Barbara on the edge of the Los Padres Wilderness, a beautiful vast place to be on lockdown. Unfortunately, we had upcoming reservations in Palm Springs and were just informed that Riverside has closed ALL RV parks and displaced 1000's of fulltimers and seniors who live in their RV's.

We shuffled our reservations and will be heading North a bit early, and HOPEFULLY this isn't a sign of things to come. If they tell us to sit still in one park, that's fine but kicking us out would be tough. Stay safe and healthy all, and cheers through a virtual sundowner! :emoji_tropical_drink:


----------



## Soundhound

thank you. 



jonathanparham said:


> Huge believer in the Power of Arts, God, and Prayer. Praying for your family.


----------



## JohnG

Dewdman42 said:


> Central Planning is not what we do here. That is what Communist and Socialist governments do. it is simply not realistic to think that suddenly in an emergency our country can snap to attention and behave more like a centrally planned one.



Dewd, what planet are you on? That is EXACTLY what the Federal government is supposed to do in a crisis. Trump is on TV every day, then Tweeting about -- his RATINGS!

We have all these Federal employees who are professionals at managing a crisis. Let them lead and referee the resources. That's their mandate.


----------



## Sears Poncho

I was gonna make a political comment but...instead I will wish the people here who are struggling and their families the very best. I am very lucky and grateful, I have a lil apartment and don't need to go out. Hope everyone is doing ok and that those who are struggling pull through.


----------



## Dewdman42

I am not going to argue for what I think the federal gov should or should not do, and have not. I am simply stating the facts of the situation as they are. If you want the country to change to something else then consider that in future elections and voting opportunities.

What I am saying is truth. If you feel you need to hate all over the government for that, that’s your choice. But don’t shoot the messenger.


----------



## Quasar

JohnG said:


> Dewd, what planet are you on? That is EXACTLY what the Federal government is supposed to do in a crisis. Trump is on TV every day, then Tweeting about -- his RATINGS!
> 
> We have all these Federal employees who are professionals at managing a crisis. Let them lead and referee the resources. That's their mandate.


What the hell are you, some sort of a commie?


----------



## JohnG

Dewd -- I don't mean to come down on you but this is exactly the kind of thing FEMA was created to avoid -- bidding wars and misallocation of scarce resources in a crisis.

From their website:

FEMA's mission statement: Helping people before, during, and after disasters.

FEMA's powers: 
Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, Public Law 100-707, signed into law November 23, 1988; amended the Disaster Relief Act of 1974, Public Law 93-288. It created the system in place today by which a presidential disaster declaration of an emergency triggers financial and physical assistance through the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA).

The Act gives FEMA the responsibility for *coordinating government-wide relief efforts.*


----------



## JohnG

[cold war spy voice] "Comrade Quasar, we meet again...."


----------



## Dewdman42

JohnG said:


> Dewd, what planet are you on? That is EXACTLY what the Federal government is supposed to do in a crisis. Trump is on TV every day, then Tweeting about -- his RATINGS!
> 
> We have all these Federal employees who are professionals at managing a crisis. Let them lead and referee the resources. That's their mandate.



again my point is not about what they SHOULD do. it is a purley practical reality of what they can do.


----------



## Dewdman42

and yes you are shooting the messenger.


----------



## JohnG

Sorry. But that is FEMA's mandate. They have a gigantic budget and very broad powers to help, as long as Someone unleashes them.

I realize you think what you think, but people are dying in New York; it has something like half the cases and they've received 1% of what they asked for, while other states get 30% or more. Trump has flat-out said, on national television, that 'you have to be nice to me' to get what you want.

Unbelievable.


----------



## Quasar

JohnG said:


> [cold war spy voice] "Comrade Quasar, we meet again...."


I'll PM you with the cell meeting details. Per usual, make sure your watch is precisely synchronized so that you initiiate the correct decryption protocol in order to read it.


----------



## Dewdman42

again, I'm not talking about what they should do. Your insinuation that somehow I don't care about New Yorkers is not accurate

I'm talking about practical realities of things as they are. And to a certain degree I'm trying to explain why they are as they are...not in order to justify them.......just to explain it. This IS the country we live in. We were not prepared for this kind of event. Our lack of preparedness goes back decades.

Do you somehow believe that FEMA has unlimited powers...like S.H.I.E.L.D to stop any negative outcome from happening? They do not have such power. Haven't we watched them pretty much botch the first month of several hurricanes that only affected a single city?

Sure, you can give them that power on paper, but that doesn't mean that when the shit hits the fan they will be ready with resources and systems and plans in place and connections with people and everything else it would take to respond in a timely manner. The reason we are not ready for a situation like this is precisely because we are not a centrally planned society. For better or worse. You are certainly free to have a debate about whether we should or should be more centrally planned then we are right now, particularly for situations like this one, and I would not disagree with you. But still....we are not centrally planned...and that makes it particularly difficult to make things happen in a planned way or to enforce it at the time the shit hits the fan. That is just the nature of the beast we live in.

Plus every day the landscape is changing and people are trying to figure out the best course of action to move forward with very little experience to draw upon. We have never seen a pandemic of this kind of magnitude all at once. Even the Spanish flu happened over a much longer period of time. We have many more people now and its basically happening nearly all at once coast to coast. This is completely unprecedented territory.

it is not accurate, nor helpful to the least degree to sit here arm chair quarterbacking POTUS and the government who are devoting every single day to try to fight this. Many people have such a hatred for current POTUS, they would like to demonize him as the boogey man and blame him for every imperfect thing that happens during this process. That is not the least bit helpful right now. Perhaps later in retrospect. Some of the things being said on this forum are blatant fake news as well. Despite whatever power that has been granted to FEMA or the president....they are not S.H.I.E.L.D, they don't have super powers and there is a limit to what they are practically capable of doing, especially if leading up to it the country has grown lazy and laxidazical in their preparedness.

kind regards.


----------



## JohnG

The power I'm talking about is the power to coordinate and channel resources to where they are most needed. They 100% have that power and are not exercising it.

As far as the President, too bad. People attacked W, Obama, Clinton and they will attack Trump too, if they feel he's not doing a good job. He's not a bogey man, he's a narcissist who wants praise for doing his job. That is what a two-year-old gets.

There are resources and, according to both Republican and Democratic governors, it's a free-for-all bidding war, rather than the organized process is should be. That is at the President's door, since it's his responsibility to direct the Federal government.

Leaders take responsibility. Trump explicitly says it's not his responsibility -- that's not 'fake news,' it's something he specifically said on live television. If you get all your information from Fox, or the NYT, you are going to miss some things.

This also is not fake news:

Gov. Larry Hogan of Maryland, a Republican, said on Tuesday that his state was “flying blind” in the fight against the coronavirus because officials did not have enough tests. When asked during an NPR interview about President Trump’s comments suggesting that a chronic lack of test kits was no longer a problem in the United States, Mr. Hogan did not mince words: “Yeah, that’s just not true.”


----------



## Dewdman42

JohnG said:


> The power I'm talking about is the power to coordinate and channel resources to where they are most needed. They 100% have that power and are not exercising it.



not exercising it. Really? Can you elaborate on exactly how they are not exercising it? Because I'm watching the daily briefings and they are doing quite a lot. They sent an entire hospital ship to NY. They sent masks and ventilators to NY. NY, as it turns out, also already had a stash in a warehouse that they had overlooked in addition to what was recently sent to them. They are currently working on finding out of state staff to go help out in NY asap.

So... you say categorically, "they are not exercising it". Please describe the facts to back up that ridiculous assertion.



> There are resources and, according to both Republican and Democratic governors, it's a free-for-all bidding war, rather than the organized process is should be.



According to cuomo it is. I watched Trump answer a question today about that. It was explained, that stuff was sent. They have what is available for them. Cuomo is being a bit of a whiner. You can believe him or believe Trump...I think they are both full of shit, but that's your prerogative.



> This also is not fake news:
> 
> Gov. Larry Hogan of Maryland, a Republican, said on Tuesday that his state was “flying blind” in the fight against the coronavirus because officials did not have enough tests. When asked during an NPR interview about President Trump’s comments suggesting that a chronic lack of test kits was no longer a problem in the United States, Mr. Hogan did not mince words: “Yeah, that’s just not true.”



That is more fake news. If one frustrated person makes an accusation or insinuation, that is not truth, that is nothing more than accusation. When reported as news, that is fake news. That is the very definition of it.

Here is that actual truth on that situation, previous administrations had inadequate plans in place to facilitate a testing scenario of this magnitude. Also there were problems with the early tests. So yes...we were delayed. Could it have come out earlier? No way to know for sure, but what we do know is that they improved the testing system in such a way that they could handle millions of tests rolling forward in a much more reliable and efficient manner. At this point USA is doing more tests then any other country by a long shot...we are learning more every day. So Larry Hogan was frustrated about a frustrating situation, but there are absolutely no facts whatsoever to back up the notion that the current POTUS covid team somehow failed to deliver the best that was possible under the circumstances. No facts to back that up whatsoever. That is FAKE NEWS to say so.



I will say it again, these assertions you are making are fake, unhelpful and even dangerous.

kind regards


----------



## Dewdman42

Here's something nicer to think about:









101-Year-Old Spanish Flu and World War 2 Survivor Has Now Beat COVID-19 As Well


A 101-year-old man had just been released from hospital confinement after he recovered from COVID-19. This was reported by the Italian city of Rimini deputy mayor, Gloria Lisi.




www.sciencetimes.com


----------



## Soundhound

You are misrepresenting left and right. We have been prepared previously. Obama stopped the Ebola problem from coming here, in part by sending people there to help. For which he was eviscerated by Trump in tweets. He disbanded the NSC pandemic unit, for no reason other than it was created during the Obama administration. He has only acted when people started dying in large numbers. And he has absolutely no idea what to do. None. He endangers you and your family ever day. 

Dewdman, are you a Trump supporter? Say it ain't so. You are cherry picking facts like a Fox News watcher. If this is true, please let me know right away so I can not need to listen to you and block you. Don't say a word in response to this until you tell me if you are a Trump supporter and/or watch Fox News. 






Dewdman42 said:


> not exercising it. Really? Can you elaborate on exactly how they are not exercising it? Because I'm watching the daily briefings and they are doing quite a lot. They sent an entire hospital ship to NY. They sent masks and ventilators to NY. NY, as it turns out, also already had a stash in a warehouse that they had overlooked in addition to what was recently sent to them. They are currently working on finding out of state staff to go help out in NY asap.
> 
> So... you say categorically, "they are not exercising it". Please describe the facts to back up that ridiculous assertion.
> According to cuomo it is. I watched Trump answer a question today about that. It was explained, that stuff was sent. They have what is available for them. Cuomo is being a bit of a whiner. You can believe him or believe Trump...I think they are both full of shit, but that's your prerogative.
> 
> 
> 
> That is more fake news. If one frustrated person makes an accusation or insinuation, that is not truth, that is nothing more than accusation. When reported as news, that is fake news. That is the very definition of it.
> 
> Here is that actual truth on that situation, previous administrations had inadequate plans in place to facilitate a testing scenario of this magnitude. Also there were problems with the early tests. So yes...we were delayed. Could it have come out earlier? No way to know for sure, but what we do know is that they improved the testing system in such a way that they could handle millions of tests rolling forward in a much more reliable and efficient manner. At this point USA is doing more tests then any other country by a long shot...we are learning more every day. So Larry Hogan was frustrated about a frustrating situation, but there are absolutely no facts whatsoever to back up the notion that the current POTUS covid team somehow failed to deliver the best that was possible under the circumstances. No facts to back that up whatsoever. That is FAKE NEWS to say so.
> 
> 
> 
> I will say it again, these assertions you are making are fake, unhelpful and even dangerous.
> 
> kind regards


----------



## Dewdman42

I don’t know what you’re talking about left or right. I am talking about truth or bs. I’m hearing a lot of hateful histerical bs. Not helpful. I’m not interested in left vs right discussions. They will go nowhere. Particularly unhelpful in the middle of the current crisis.

Previous administrations going back decades,not just Obama; did not have a good system in place to test millions. Not for Ebola and not for anything else. This is not because they were bad administrations, they just weren’t anticipating something that would spread so widely and so quickly.

the good news is that this has been corrected by the current administration and they are rolling out large numbers of tests as we speak.


----------



## Soundhound

I blocked him. Idiot. Jesus they’re everywhere...


----------



## Henu

Not that I'm a Trump supporter myself (I'm not even American), but I find this "block opposing views"-attitude rather weird.


----------



## pfylim

Best thing ever, cleaner air, no distractions, more focussed than ever.


----------



## MartinH.

Soundhound said:


> You are misrepresenting left and right. We have been prepared previously. Obama stopped the Ebola problem from coming here, in part by sending people there to help. For which he was eviscerated by Trump in tweets.



"There is no glory in prevention".


----------



## Soundhound

There are opposing views, and there are Trump supporters, not the same thing in any way. I’ve tried talking to Trump supporters, learned my lesson the hard way. Go for it.



Henu said:


> Not that I'm a Trump supporter myself (I'm not even American), but I find this "block opposing views"-attitude rather weird.


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

I think it's perfectly possible to talk about how governments respond on the left/right politically speaking, but Trump isn't classically right-wing, or classically anything really. He seems only interested in a) undoing what the last guy did and b) appearing popular. He doesn't seem to be driven by compassion or insight or ability in any way - I haven't yet heard a press conference where he spoke like someone who understood the topic in question.

But re the pandemic - Trump ignored multiple warnings about the threat of a pandemic, and spent the last 2 years slashing the programs responsible for handling this outbreak. And then he claimed it 'came from nowhere', and nobody could have predicted it.


----------



## G.R. Baumann

Soundhound said:


> I blocked him. Idiot. Jesus they’re everywhere...


Everywhere....Indeed!


----------



## Zero&One

My dad is going into hospital now. We can't even visit him, he'll be so scared.
I'm so sad right now.

Please please take care everyone.


----------



## G.R. Baumann

Debating a narcissist or their disciples is a waste of time for many reasons, and it should not be underestimated there is inherent danger as well for the rather unprotected. This is well known in psychiatric circles. If you start to dive into a discussion and the world of someone with narcissistic personality disorder you allow him/her to drag you into a unfathomable psychological vortex. Before you know it, you are on a road of defending yourself, or trying to make him/her understand errors of judgement, at this point, you already lost.


----------



## G.R. Baumann

In self quarantaine, due to high risk. Rather content for now, reading mainly science papers, listening to science podcasts etc., performing psychological hygenie as well. Very happy not to live in a Metropole as I used to, 36th floor skyscraper. Avoiding mainstream media / social media overload. Wondering how and if our world will reshape for the better once we get out of this. Much required indeed, not holding my breath though.


----------



## dzilizzi

The problem with Trump is that he's p*ssed off so many news people that you can get a real unbiased news source anymore. 

Oh, who am I kidding. I don't think we've had unbiased news ever. 

As far as prep goes, every year Congress cuts back the money to the Federal agencies to pay for their personal projects. So things like prepping for a potential viral disaster is not high on the priority when you have actual disasters like tornadoes and hurricanes to deal with. Okay, don't get me started. 

Really, though? They've been telling people not to go out for over a month. Maybe it should have started sooner, but the doctors/researchers kept saying it wasn't aerosol. So they don't listen until someone they know dies from it. Typical human behavior. It doesn't apply to me! No one else should go out, but I need my run along the beach! No "if they are using hazmat suits to remove people from that cruise ship maybe we should start worrying?"

Sorry, I'm having to deal with a normally very active, work outside where I have to walk miles a day husband who is now stuck with sitting at a desk at home and going crazy. I told him he could go walk the dogs if it was really bothering him. But he is in the high risk category, so he is trying to be good.


----------



## Dewdman42




----------



## cuttime

Dewdman42 said:


>




That's a good interview. Here's a link to the unedited version that's worth watching, IMHO.



Some people say he is underestimating aerosol transmission. I'm not sure.


----------



## Dewdman42

I didn’t know there was an even longer one. I’ll check it out.

i agree with you that he might be underestimating some of the transmission and statistical facts. I just watched Cuomo give worse stats on tv. I think even among the experts there are differing opinions and we don’t have exact answers right now. Better to be safer then needed based on the worst possibility, in my view. But still this is a worthwhile calm video from someone on the front lines. We are going to be socially distancing for a very long time.


----------



## Reid Rosefelt

I predict that Trump will eventually direct FEMA to procure and collect all PPE and ventilators and distribute according to need.

He'll do it when his poll numbers go down.


----------



## Dewdman42

They have already worked out large production through GM And perhap others to make hundreds of thousands of ventilators. So many that they reckon we will be able to help supply other countries with some. These are in the process of being produced.

i believe they also have gotten manufacturers that normally make other stuff to make millions of masks. 3M I think is one them, can’t remember now.


----------



## Uiroo

Well, as a doctor he probably probably knows a shit-ton about Covid-19 treatment, but his primary job is treating people, and I suspect someone who's a virologist or an expert in infectious disease epidemiology just knows better, since those people have the time to read all day instead of keeping people alive. 

Doesn't mean he's wrong, but I won't ask the virologist about actual treatment either, I'd ask this guy.


----------



## dzilizzi

Dewdman42 said:


> They have already worked out large production through GM And perhap others to make hundreds of thousands of ventilators. So many that they reckon we will be able to help supply other countries with some. These are in the process of being produced.
> 
> i believe they also have gotten manufacturers that normally make other stuff to make millions of masks. 3M I think is one them, can’t remember now.


3M makes the n95 mask if I remember correctly. So they are just having them ramp up production. 

So it seems that if it is aerosol, it isn't really a major problem unless you get it on your hand (someone sneezes or coughs at you) and you touch your face. You generally won't pick it up by just breathing in say a large grocery store with A/C and filters. Good to know. Now if only I can stop itching my nose. Allergy season is not a good time for this.


----------



## cuttime

dzilizzi said:


> So it seems that if it is aerosol, it isn't really a major problem unless you get it on your hand (someone sneezes or coughs at you) and you touch your face.


I think you may be confusing droplets, that are larger particles that quickly fall to surfaces, with aerosols, that are smaller particles that remain airborne for some undetermined period of time.


----------



## Dewdman42

I’m still a little paranoid about aerosol aspects, but I think the greatest danger in the grocery store is everyone touching everything. Wear a scarf around your face if need be to make sure you don’t touch your face until you cleanup. Sanitize often if you have any to carry. Try to remove stuff from the bags in your garage, etc depends how Anal you want to be. I’m trying to be extra anal about it, but at some point the odds of picking up the virus from a cereal box starts to get small


----------



## dzilizzi

cuttime said:


> I think you may be confusing droplets, that are larger particles that quickly fall to surfaces, with aerosols, that are smaller particles that remain airborne for some undetermined period of time.


Well, basically he is saying it isn't very aerosol. So droplets would be the main concern.


----------



## Dewdman42

I guess in the grocery store the droplets could leave people’s mouth and land on product too. Very easily


----------



## JohnG

dzilizzi said:


> You generally won't pick it up by just breathing in say a large grocery store with A/C and filters.



Unfortunately, the very small particles stay in the air for a long time after a sneeze or cough. There's a good Japanese video on the length of time the smallest things float:


----------



## cuttime

dzilizzi said:


> Well, basically he is saying it isn't very aerosol. So droplets would be the main concern.


That is the impression that I get.


----------



## Dewdman42

The aerosol aspect is I think more related to people in the vicinity of ventilator equipment in action.


----------



## Dewdman42

But better safe then sorry. Anything I hear I’m assuming it’s probably a little worse


----------



## Kevin Fortin

Shopping has become a challenge because I can only hold my breath for about 20 minutes.


----------



## cuttime

Dewdman42 said:


> The aerosol aspect is I think more related to people in the vicinity of ventilator equipment in action.


Which could account for why front line responders are prone to get very sick, perhaps because they are in a position to inhale a large number of virus aerosols directly into their lungs. There seems to be some evidence of correlation between viral load and illness severity.


----------



## MartinH.

Inhalation isn't even the only threat, eyes are points of entry for viruses too. 

I think all the "stay away X meters and it is safe" recommendations can only be best guesses because they don't have and can't get the data they would need to say these things with high degrees of certainty and there are so many unique factors at play in any given situation. The proper scientists are very open about that. But even guesses in the right direction are a lot better than nothing and they'll have positive effects on the curve for sure. But if you're in a very high risk group you either have to stay inside and have someone else buy your groceries, or take tons of precautions that are hard to stay consistent with.


----------



## toomanynotes

yes the longer you're exposed to the virus the more dangerous it will be.
Regarding shopping, I have not seen one person cough or sneeze in a supermarket..you'd be a dumb fk to be shopping if you was.


----------



## dzilizzi

Are they checking temperatures yet? Not that it does any good. You can spread it without having symptoms. Typhoid Mary and all....


----------



## Dewdman42

Very few places are doing that. People are generally not being careful enough, they are doing half-assed social distancing at best. if you gotta get milk, then you gotta get milk...but everyone just needs to be extra careful themselves and realize that most other people are not.


----------



## MauroPantin

On this topic, I just came from the store outside. Buying groceries once a week at most here, because of the time it takes to process everything. The precautions here are pretty thorough. Everybody I know (friends, family) goes about it about the same way. 

We all go out with something covering our faces, even if it is a handkerchief or a bandana. We come back home, take off our shoes and leave them outside the door. The neighbors have been doing the same thing in that regard. 

Once we come inside we wash our hands and toss all the clothes into a bucket we have at the entrance and take a shower. The clothes are to be washed at a high temp. Then we go to the kitchen and disinfect absolutely everything that came from outside. The items from the store, the reusable bags we use for groceries, etc. Some items stay next to the door (wallet, keys, etc). If something does not need its packaging, the package goes to the trash. Then we clean every surface we touched since we came in (light switches, door handles, soap dispensers, faucets, etc). Then the kitchen counter, and then we have the robot vacuum cleaner mop the entire floor of the house with bleach, which is the most common disinfectant here.

Now is this too much? Maybe. But I have asthma, so I'd rather exaggerate 'cuz I don't want to fucking die or spend two weeks alone in an isolated ward watching other people die around me. And I certainly don't want my wife to have to go through something like that. 

Now, maybe my chances are better, I'm only 32 and (aside from asthma) quite healthy and fit, I rarely get sick. But even in that case, if for some reason I need medical attention I don't want to take up a bed someone else with worse chances could need. One of those people could be my mom or my dad, both of them are definitely not young and have pre-existing conditions.

Something that is quite clear right now is that this is the way we live now and it will be so for the coming months, even after the lockdown is lifted, this crap is here to stay. Which sucks cuz that entire process takes about 2 hours.


----------



## Dewdman42

not its not too much. I wish USA were taking it as seriously as Argentina.


----------



## MauroPantin

Not everybody here is taking it as seriously, though. You see them when you go outside. A lot of people have been detained for being out and about. An anti-theft satellite tracking system for cars we have here recently published a report stating that a lot of people are still going at night, particularly during weekends and traffic has not been as reduced in those "leisure" hours as it should. So, I know it's not any comfort (quite the opposite probably) but don't think that is only an American thing. It's a human thing. We are not as smart as we think we are. Sure, moon landing, great achievements, etc. But we tend to infer the qualities of our best moments are inherent to humanity, when in fact most people are not really paying that much attention, or they are paying attention to the wrong thing.


----------



## dzilizzi

Well, most humans are social animals. It is hard to sit alone in isolation for a lot of them.


----------



## Dewdman42

Like Cuomo said yesterday. It's boring. I'm bored. we're all bored. This is a time to be disciplined.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf




----------



## kitekrazy

dzilizzi said:


> Well, most humans are social animals. It is hard to sit alone in isolation for a lot of them.




I imagine it is hard for people to change their habits. That freaks people out because they are not practicing safety precautions. It reminds me of the time living in an apartment without plumbing for 3 days. I don't know how many times after the fact I took a leak or dump. 

Well now I'm tarting to take inventory of all of the DAW stuff I have and using some of it. I have plenty of plugins, loops and even DAWs. I finally made it through 6 parts of learning Live. Next is to apply it.

I'm interested in what people are doing in their music making and are now forced to set goals. Should I make a thread. I'm done with the politics and the media stuff.


----------



## dzilizzi

I think there might be one already.


----------



## Kevin Fortin

Dewdman42 said:


> Very few places are doing that. People are generally not being careful enough, they are doing half-assed social distancing at best. if you gotta get milk, then you gotta get milk...but everyone just needs to be extra careful themselves and realize that most other people are not.



Yeah, we need to practice "defensive shopping" if we ever shop again. Some people are still slow to catch on re: distancing.

Today one woman asked me if I was in line (outside the store). "Yes I am, ma'am. We're spacing, for safety." She muttered something like "yeah yeah yeah" so I followed up with "Six feet, please."

Also, there were still couples in line. How many people does it take to make a shopping trip?

Another woman, yapping on her phone, dodged right into my space in the meat department without apparently leaving her own mental whirlpool.

A lot of people (me included) might go into a shopping trance when they enter a store, and we need to be aware of that for self-protection.


----------



## Uiroo

Kevin Fortin said:


> Also, there were still couples in line. How many people does it take to make a shopping trip?


Depends how often you go shopping. I go with my girlfriend, it's not optimal, but she knows what to buy when half of the stuff isn't available since she makes the food, and I can carry stuff home that lasts 10 days.


----------



## chillbot

Kevin Fortin said:


> Also, there were still couples in line. How many people does it take to make a shopping trip?


Well just for one possible reason, my wife and I go together... she's shopping for us and I'm shopping for my parents. But we have to checkout separately because of limits, if we both want a dozen eggs, etc.


----------



## BradHoyt

My life has been effected by buying more sample libraries. lol 
Biggest discovery was Ben Osterhouse - He makes great stuff.
Also got Atom Hub's Mechaniano - Excellent super-weird creepy organic library.


----------



## sostenuto

IRA in toilet. 
(edit) Bill Gates says 'complete shutdown' ...... Several 'media' headlines. Reading his actual op-ed makes clear his meaning .... which is plain common sense. Back to avoiding daily news despite days 'home alone'.

Can survive this if growers, harvesters, shippers, diesel /gasoline, grocery outlets run flawlessly.


----------



## Dewdman42

your IRA will come back by end of the year probably...worst case in a year or two. Don't panic sell. You won't lose anything unless you sell now.

Now as to your income needs this year, my heart goes out...I don't know what to say, a lot of people are going to be in similar dire situation in coming months...2020 will be a rough year for a lot of people.


----------



## Kevin Fortin

Thank goodness I'm not on a cruise ship.

What?!!! Planet Earth is just one big cruise ship?


----------



## gsilbers

Here is an interesting take/info



one vial ooopsy and bam... pita for everyone.


----------



## MauroPantin

There's no doubt the Chinese government is shady as shit. It has been for decades, with remarkable issues in human rights. Everybody just chooses to ignore that because it puts a cheap phone in their hands.

It would be great if moving forward the silver lining for all of this would be ethics and transparency back in the business equation, instead of just looking at the bottom line. But I know better than to hope for that.


----------



## X-Bassist

sostenuto said:


> IRA in toilet.
> (edit) Bill Gates says 'complete shutdown' ...... Several 'media' headlines. Reading his actual op-ed makes clear his meaning .... which is plain common sense. Back to avoiding daily news despite days 'home alone'.
> 
> Can survive this if growers, harvesters, shippers, diesel /gasoline, grocery outlets run flawlessly.


I actually think shipping will see a huge boon (FED EX is already hiring thousands more) and growers will always be seen as a necessity, even if the government needs to pay for robots to plant and pick it all (and deliver it). But many will need to get use to home delivery, in fact I expect stores to start offering free home delivery (some have here) for the coming months. Shop online, get it in 2 or 3 days worse case. Which if you think about it, may even make gas a moot point (and dirt cheap).

But this is a great time to get through all that software you've purchased over the last few years (especially you  ) and make some use of it. Download a movie scene and score it, or grab your favorite score or symphony and try to replicate it with what you have. You will not only get to know your library, but you will deepen your musical abilities on top of that. Then when jobs return you will be ready, and hopefully have some new demos for your website.

There will be a bounce back, and a need for composer will return, but will we be ready? Until then banks will be forgiving, Credit card companies will forgo late fees, and neighbors will hopefully be helping neighbors (even Uncle Sam is sending me a check for $1200, imagine that). And hopefully we will be better prepared for the next time, probably around flu season, and realize if we take precautions, we are blessed to have quiet time to work on our craft.

I feel blessed that because of being forced to work from my home studio for several years, I’ve been more productive this past week than before this started. Cheers.


----------



## mikeh-375

Nearly 8pm in the UK.....just about to go outside and applaud all our utility workers and the NHS.


----------



## chimuelo

MauroPantin said:


> There's no doubt the Chinese government is shady as shit. It has been for decades, with remarkable issues in human rights. Everybody just chooses to ignore that because it puts a cheap phone in their hands.



This is their chance to try and climb over the West. Doesn’t matter if that was their intention last year, but it sure is now as they damn near purchased the IP person at the UN recently but failed as member states not yet owned by China’s Belt/Road loans/debt, are starting to see the real Chinese government.

The UN should seek reparations after this most recent Chinese Pandemic.
It’s not their first.

Shady is too kind of a word.

If one were to really pay attention to patterns and data, you;d notice the day after Western journalists got kicked out, no new cases of Covid-19 reported?
You’d think American media would at least mention this.
I read this report from Australia.

Seems theyore not trying to impeach their leaders, so they actually do investigative journalism instead of following their billionaires orders.

To keep busy I bought a TC Helicon Voice Rack.
Programming and automating harmonies + FX, for 50+ songs.

This thing sounds fantastic. 
Keeps me from yelling at the Wife & kids.


----------



## Marko Zirkovich

chimuelo said:


> To keep busy I bought a TC Helicon Voice Rack.
> Programming and automating harmonies + FX, for 50+ songs.
> 
> This thing sounds fantastic.
> Keeps me from yelling at the Wife & kids.



Why not use the Helicon to yell at your wife and kids in harmony? Diminished harmonies and/or lots of tritones or minor 2nd clusters could put some true oompphhh into the domestic rage.


----------



## Dewdman42

it is simply not reasonable at all to assume that China could have escalated so quickly to 80,000 cases out of nowhere and then suddenly stop growing. The only way they could have stopped it that fast is if they had known about it for quite a while before and had put in place plans to contain it. If they did, then they should have let the world know a lot earlier. if they didn't, then they are lying about it now for whatever purpose they have. The whole story is not congruent. With so many chinese people and watching the spread here in USA in comparison, it is just not reasonable at all to think that they only had 80k cases and stopped it dead right there somehow. 

Its hard to know what, if anything, china is up to, but I don't trust them. 

I suspect they are just lying about it now. But we shall see...

My hope is that USA will wake up and stop relying on cheap Chinese products so much. We have allowed ourselves to get weaker while we sought to have cheaper leisure lifestyle.


----------



## Quasar

Henu said:


> Not that I'm a Trump supporter myself (I'm not even American), but I find this "block opposing views"-attitude rather weird.


I agree. I've never blocked anyone on an internet forum, ever. What I've never understood is why this would be necessary when it is so incredibly easy to simply skip over what you do not wish to read. If you were bothering me by ringing my doorbell, calling on the phone with voice mails or texts, then yeah, those things disrupt my day and I would have to stop and deal with them....

...But an internet post is entirely unintrusive unless you choose to engage it.


----------



## Quasar

G.R. Baumann said:


> In self quarantaine, due to high risk. Rather content for now, reading mainly science papers, listening to science podcasts etc., performing psychological hygenie as well. Very happy not to live in a Metropole as I used to, 36th floor skyscraper. Avoiding mainstream media / social media overload. Wondering how and if our world will reshape for the better once we get out of this. Much required indeed, not holding my breath though.


I am quite diligently forcing myself to refrain from any and all speculation about any long-term sociopolitical reshaping as a result of this. IMHO any speculation at this point is just that, and I see no reason to wrap my consciousness in scenarios (whether positive or negative) that may or may not ever come to pass. To use the cliche, I'm just staying in the NOW, man...


----------



## Dewdman42

Quasar said:


> I agree. I've never blocked anyone on an internet forum, ever. What I've never understood is why this would be necessary when it is so incredibly easy to simply skip over what you do not wish to read. If you were bothering me by ringing my doorbell, calling on the phone with voice mails or texts, then yeah, those things disrupt my day and I would have to stop and deal with them....
> 
> ...But an internet post is entirely unintrusive unless you choose to engage it.



Most people that block and especially if they want everyone to know they are blocking....are doing it as a form of insult. why people feel they need to insult other people they don't agree with is another matter.


----------



## Sears Poncho

Henu said:


> Not that I'm a Trump supporter myself (I'm not even American), but I find this "block opposing views"-attitude rather weird.



It's not about an "opposing view". There are opposing views on immigration, taxes, health care, military spending etc.

We were told that it's the biggest inauguration crowd ever, when a moron with an IQ of 6 could see that it wasn't. There is no "opposing view". We have learned about "alternative facts". We have been told, 50 zillion times, that something didn't happen. Then we find out it happened. And then it's "well it's not a crime". We have a pathological liar who lies basically every time he opens his trap. None of this is "opposing views". We had a Dotard fire up rubes about Barry Sotero being born in Kenya. He's a mooooooslim, one who happens to smoke and drink. So, none of this is "opposing views".

Our school shootings were a hoax. As absurd as the math is on that, there are millions of morons that believe this shit. A major news network (Fox) has disparaged victims. One of my buddies had a kid in school in Sandy Hook (older than the victims). I mentioned this on FB and a total stranger called me a liar. I turned off the "anyone can post" feature. 

This has been years in the making. The dumbocrats are running a sex slave pizza shop. Sounds stupid...until some idiot went in with a gun and started shooting. Our lead virus Doctor is getting death threats, the result of years of "It's fake news from the lamestream media" . We had a dotard mock the handicapped, it's on video. Nope, didn't happen. Sean Hannity didn't say blah blah, even though it's on a friggin video. We had a stupid ass take a sharpie to a weather map.

Opposing views? Nope. Just a steaming sack of crap.


----------



## Dewdman42

and completely unrelated to this thread.


----------



## Soundhound

No self control. I see someone say something idiotic or dangerous, I go off. Not saying it's a good thing, it's definitely not... Kind of even more hair trigger now what with that annoying apocalypse and all...




Quasar said:


> I agree. I've never blocked anyone on an internet forum, ever. What I've never understood is why this would be necessary when it is so incredibly easy to simply skip over what you do not wish to read. If you were bothering me by ringing my doorbell, calling on the phone with voice mails or texts, then yeah, those things disrupt my day and I would have to stop and deal with them....
> 
> ...But an internet post is entirely unintrusive unless you choose to engage it.


----------



## gsilbers

MauroPantin said:


> There's no doubt the Chinese government is shady as shit. It has been for decades, with remarkable issues in human rights. Everybody just chooses to ignore that because it puts a cheap phone in their hands.
> 
> It would be great if moving forward the silver lining for all of this would be ethics and transparency back in the business equation, instead of just looking at the bottom line. But I know better than to hope for that.




Hopefully it’ll be a positive. Because it can also yield a negative one. Like 9/11 was justification for the Iraq war and two decade long midde East wars. 

So for example the notion of tracing infected people Via cell phone tracking and turning into a surveliance state.

Or on the other extreme, People in the USA suddenly saying hey... 3trillion in bailout for companies but health care was too expensive?!


----------



## Dewdman42

or embedding a chip in everyone.


----------



## dzilizzi

Quasar said:


> I agree. I've never blocked anyone on an internet forum, ever. What I've never understood is why this would be necessary when it is so incredibly easy to simply skip over what you do not wish to read. If you were bothering me by ringing my doorbell, calling on the phone with voice mails or texts, then yeah, those things disrupt my day and I would have to stop and deal with them....
> 
> ...But an internet post is entirely unintrusive unless you choose to engage it.


I blocked someone once. I don't remember what they posted. They started a thread & I read the post and was trying very hard not to say something to the effect of "You are an idiot!" Because everyone is entitled to an opinion. Since it was always at the top of the new posts list for a short time, it was easier to block than to keep stopping myself. 

Once the thread moved off the first page? I unblocked this person. Turned out they weren't an active poster, so I didn't miss much. But maybe being able to block a thread that makes one want to start a lot of drama might be a good thing to have. Everyone has things that set them off. You know, like lack of legato. Or using VST instead of VI.


----------



## JohnG

Dewdman42 said:


> or embedding a chip in everyone.



they don't need to; everybody's already -- voluntarily -- carrying around a surveillance device.

This is another topic, I guess, but it's a juicy one. Just read a review of a new book about it called, The Age of Surveillance Capitalism.


----------



## Mike Greene

dzilizzi said:


> But maybe being able to block a thread that makes one want to start a lot of drama might be a good thing to have.


That’s a good idea. Such a good idea that we added this feature a few weeks ago.  (It was a request after the “5-Letter Words” thread kept going and going.)

There’s an “Ignore Thread” button at the top of the page.


----------



## mikeh-375

Mike Greene said:


> That’s a good idea. Such a good idea that we added this feature a few weeks ago.  (It was a request after the “5-Letter Words” thread kept going and going.)
> 
> There’s an “Ignore Thread” button at the top of the page.



I can't believe folks wouldn't like the 5 letter thread...such wonderful invention from all participants..  

SORRY


----------



## Uiroo

mikeh-375 said:


> I can't believe folks wouldn't like the 5 letter thread...such wonderful invention from all participants..
> 
> SORRY


Sad Orphans raise rascals, yo!

edit: I'm also sorry


----------



## VivianaSings

For all the craziness the China virus is causing, it seems to be pretty calm here. I've self isolated for three weeks. Work is slower but thankfully hasn't stopped. I picked up a 7 week composing job for a film in August about two days ago and I booked some gigs for July yesterday. I'm behind on some other projects so I've been using this time to catch up and also rearrange the studio.

So far, not too bad. And I'm in NYC where it's supposed to be the worst. It's kind of hit or miss - I have a friend who works in one hospital in Manhasset, Long Island who said its nuts and I have another friend who works in two hospitals in Long Island, one in Nassau and one in Suffolk and she said both of them are empty. It really is kinda off balance here. They were talking about trying to even that out and take some of the patients at the hospitals that are overloaded in the boroughs and move the patients to the hospitals that are pretty empty out in long island.

Of course the media is trying to spin everything as the world ending but then again there's a reason that journalists rank just below medieval prostitutes with syphilis on the list of people you respect. If they're not causing a panic, they're not happy. Besides, considering how badly journalists have been outed for lying the past 7-8 years at least, they're barely getting web views anymore so this whole virus is a good way to work up a frenzy and trying to score web clicks. Most media outlets - this is probably the most clicks they've gotten in years.

I needed a break anyway so I've been using the time resourcefully. Still doesn't stop the fact that the CCP fucked, and continues to fuck the world with this whole mess with their nonstop lying.


----------



## gsilbers

VivianaSings said:


> For all the craziness the China virus is causing, it seems to be pretty calm here. I've self isolated for three weeks. Work is slower but thankfully hasn't stopped. I picked up a 7 week composing job for a film in August about two days ago and I booked some gigs for July yesterday. I'm behind on some other projects so I've been using this time to catch up and also rearrange the studio.
> 
> So far, not too bad. And I'm in NYC where it's supposed to be the worst. It's kind of hit or miss - I have a friend who works in one hospital in Manhasset, Long Island who said its nuts and I have another friend who works in two hospitals in Long Island, one in Nassau and one in Suffolk and she said both of them are empty. It really is kinda off balance here. They were talking about trying to even that out and take some of the patients at the hospitals that are overloaded in the boroughs and move the patients to the hospitals that are pretty empty out in long island.
> 
> Of course the media is trying to spin everything as the world ending but then again there's a reason that journalists rank just below medieval prostitutes with syphilis on the list of people you respect. If they're not causing a panic, they're not happy. Besides, considering how badly journalists have been outed for lying the past 7-8 years at least, they're barely getting web views anymore so this whole virus is a good way to work up a frenzy and trying to score web clicks. Most media outlets - this is probably the most clicks they've gotten in years.
> 
> I needed a break anyway so I've been using the time resourcefully. Still doesn't stop the fact that the CCP fucked, and continues to fuck the world with this whole mess with their nonstop lying.




yes, the 24 hour new cycle gets very boring when there isn't a lot of news. so when there is actually a thing everyone wants to be informed , it gets crazy with a lot of opinions, a lot of maybes and no complete journalism. they have web pages to fill so ads can be added.
and in socia media its a lot of "deceiving headlines" for click bait and a LOT of comments about just the click bait article and NO one reads the article. that one from trump saying the US will not be paying harry and Megan security... and everyone commented about how its all GREAT and talking shit about harry/Megan and they should be pay their own thing blah blah when they never asked for security.
he just trolled the news and knows people will do exactly this. same as he did with Hillary emails and everything he's said to con his way to being elected. but that's just more about us, though. 
so now when there is something we actually care about its all about making you worry. crazy headlines so you click on the article with a very worrisome image. reporters and news host with their crisis faces and getting people to worry more. the virus lives in hard surfaces for days but don't mention how contagious it is after a few hours. which is low. specially after washing your hands. so now we think there is an invisible virus attacking from everywhere.
I just read about the naval hospital in NYC that doesn't accept covid Patients and its only has 20 patients and some hospital head doctor saying its useless. and now I read your info.
so its really hard to take any news as full fact.


----------



## chimuelo

Dewdman42 said:


> Most people that block and especially if they want everyone to know they are blocking....are doing it as a form of insult. why people feel they need to insult other people they don't agree with is another matter.



It’s part of the “I’m offended crowd“ that claims they block you, but it’s really a fake ignore. More of a protest statement, part of group think that fake news teaches it’s subordinates.

Example.
I called a few people here members of a group think effort. Naturally they were outraged, said I was a moron, and full of shit, and in the next sentences responded by asking others to block me, raise your hands, etc.

In other words validating my point by responding with group think.

Ankyu


----------



## chimuelo

Screw the politics, I hope nobody in this crowd even knows anyone affected by the latest Chinese pandemic.
Even if you’re a hater and take China’s side because you’re instructed to, I still hope you and your loved ones aren’t sick by this most recent Chinese pandemic.


----------



## MartinH.

Blocking is a great reminder to yourself to not argue with certain people. I don't feel the need to really use the feature here (I think I blocked and later unblocked one person because I couldn't remember why I blocked them), because the influx of new users that would need blocking is fairly low and there's no one making outrageous drama-bait threads all the time. There's value in blocking someone just to not see the threads they make, if those are hard to ignore traps for wasting your time on pointless discussions for you. But I didn't notice anything like that here. I've put tons of other people on ignore on other forums. Don't think I've ever announced it. I've even still talked to some afterwards or liked their comments. I don't treat the feature as a declaration of war, it's more like a productivity tool imho.




chimuelo said:


> Screw the politics, I hope nobody in this crowd even knows anyone affected by the latest Chinese pandemic.
> Even if you’re a hater and take China’s side because you’re instructed to, I still hope you and your loved ones aren’t sick by this most recent Chinese pandemic.



It won't be long and you'll probably have a hard time finding someone who _doesn't _know someone affected. The grandmother of a friend of my girlfriend got infected in a hospital and might not make it. A friend told me today one of his favorite comic artists died from covid-19.





gsilbers said:


> I just read about the naval hospital in NYC that doesn't accept covid Patients and its only has 20 patients and some hospital head doctor saying its useless. and now I read your info.
> so its really hard to take any news as full fact.



Is there even a need for english speaking people to turn to "the news" for "information"? It's a genuine question. I get most of my infos straight from people working at the Robert Koch Institute in Germany. There's a podcast with one of their virologists 5 days a week and regular official updates by another guy from the RKI on youtube. The podcast is usually 30ish minutes long and they talk about a mix of new info he got from reading through studies that often haven't even been published yet, info from their own research, and answering questions picked from mails that the audience writes. They have like 5 to 10 or so people just screening e-mails for good questions. They take care to make the titles of the podcasts non-clickbaity and they have nothing to gain by misrepresenting anything, because they aren't financed by advertisement at all.

What are similar options for english speaking people? If there are none, then I'd be baffled and dissappointed because it seems like a no-brainer to make good science-based information from reputable sources easily availible to everyone.


----------



## dzilizzi

Mike Greene said:


> That’s a good idea. Such a good idea that we added this feature a few weeks ago.  (It was a request after the “5-Letter Words” thread kept going and going.)
> 
> There’s an “Ignore Thread” button at the top of the page.


Thank you! I don't need it much, but definitely useful when I do!


----------



## dzilizzi

I just talked to my sister yesterday. She is an RN in a couple of ERs. She said the main one she works at is mostly empty. She spends most of her day just cleaning stuff that doesn't usually get sanitized regularly. They are only taking Covid and trauma, but are not a major trauma center, so not much to do. All non-urgent procedures have been cancelled. She said the hospital (really mostly a medical center with doctors offices) was talking about closing and moving the nurses and doctors to nearby hospitals that need help. 

She also said pretty much the whole family has had it. The two youngest don't live at home and were confirmed cases. The oldest wasn't confirmed but had all the symptoms. Fortunately, for all they were like a bad cold.


----------



## dzilizzi

On a positive note, I have noticed that the constant spam calls we get every day have dropped to a trickle. I guess call centers haven't figured out how to do it safely. Thank goodness!


----------



## Dewdman42

A recent law was posted forcing spammers to conform with blocked id's or something like that... Don't know if that is why, but maybe.









FCC forces carriers to crack down on fake caller IDs


The FCC on Tuesday gave wireless carriers until next summer to implement a system designed to prevent caller ID spoofing. The goal is blocking phone



www.cultofmac.com


----------



## dzilizzi

Dewdman42 said:


> A recent law was posted forcing spammers to conform with blocked id's or something like that... Don't know if that is why, but maybe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FCC forces carriers to crack down on fake caller IDs
> 
> 
> The FCC on Tuesday gave wireless carriers until next summer to implement a system designed to prevent caller ID spoofing. The goal is blocking phone
> 
> 
> 
> www.cultofmac.com


We have a regular phone in our house. For some reason, our cell phones barely work inside. Plus my internet is from the phone company - FIOS.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

I don't get this cynicism about the media. 🤷‍♂️

The reporting I've read has been fairly decent. The nature of the story is urgent; a lot of people are sick and dying.


----------



## dzilizzi

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I don't get this cynicism about the media. 🤷‍♂️
> 
> The reporting I've read has been fairly decent. The nature of the story is urgent; a lot of people are sick and dying.


The print media is not bad and things like The Guardian are pretty good. It is just the TV news - and really, the 24/7 news channels that spend a lot of time on the blame game trying to make it someone's fault. Other than maybe China's. 

It's like watching a bunch of gossip columnists doing the news most of the time. News should be just the facts. Not a lot of opinions.


----------



## JohnG

dzilizzi said:


> It's like watching a bunch of gossip columnists doing the news most of the time. News should be just the facts. Not a lot of opinions.



Very true; a lot of Americans have become inured to "news" being unmoored from actual facts. More like, "here's a guy from Georgia and he says...." And here's a mom at the mall, who thinks that.....

Anecdote and innuendo instead of information, spiced up with "what's the most outrageous right/left wing thing someone posted on Facebook -- lead with that!"


----------



## Dewdman42

JohnG said:


> Very true; a lot of Americans have become inured to "news" being unmoored from actual facts. More like, "here's a guy from Georgia and he says...." And here's a mom at the mall, who thinks that.....
> 
> Anecdote and innuendo instead of information, spiced up with "what's the most outrageous right/left wing thing someone posted on Facebook -- lead with that!"



That is why its being called "fake news" because that is exactly what it is. The poorest excuse for journalism we have ever seen since The National Enquirer. 

There are a few journalists still worth their salt that dig for the facts and have ethically decided not to report unverified facts, but they are becoming far and few between. The never ending search for sensationalism to sell fake information to people is that large scale equivalent of nation-wide gossip...and its a rampant problem in the world today, especially in the USA. At this point...you can't really trust any of it 100%, take it all with a grain of salt and perhaps if you hear all sides and take it all in, including the "side" you're probably not used to listening to, you may be able to see through the bull and get a clear picture for yourself, but who has time.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

The print news, like the New York Times and Washington Post, as well as NPR are doing a decent job.

Just stop getting news from TV, social media, or from crappy news sources.


----------



## Dewdman42

I don't agree. There are lots and lots of cases in the print news as well, often times the TV are simply quoting innuendo and unverified garbage from the print media. It is most definitely not trustworthy either.


----------



## dzilizzi

They don't have the money they used to have to pay real reporters. The Internet has messed up a lot of it.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

dzilizzi said:


> Other than maybe China's.


When I hear US folks blame China, it feels like there's an assumption that if it had originated in the US that it would have been prevented from becoming a pandemic. Which seems contrary to all available evidence.


----------



## Dewdman42

I don't interpret it quite that way. It did start there, they didn't contain it, they didn't notify people until weeks had gone by where they knew it was spreading person to person, had allowed people to fly away from china carrying the virus and went out of their way to silence chinese doctors that were trying to blow the whistle on it. one of the dr's died and one has gone missing. There was a coverup, for who knows why.

Its vaguely familiar to Chernobyl, in how it went down.

As to what would have happened here is wildly speculative, but I do not think our government would have tried to cover it up. Would we have contained it better then China? Nobody knows and it doesn't matter. Right now they are the ones that need to be investigated for the sake of improvement on handling this kind of thing, globally..including improving that here too before it actually does happen here. This is not about blaming one side or the other, its simply about identifying where it happened and finding out what needs to change to prevent it from happening again. It did start there, so that's where the investigation needs to happen.

All that being said I find it ironic in the extreme that china is pretty much the only country that actually DID contain it for themselves, while still allowing it to blow out in the world to cause massive damage to everyone else. How is it that they were so good at containing it, but so bad about communicating about it to the rest of us and containing it from getting out? Yes the conspiracy theorist in me wonders if its was intentional and if so, then a lot more blaming would be warranted, but we have no proof of that right now. I just find it highly ironic and incongruent that they were able to contain it there, they are the only country in the world that is so far along the downside of the peak-curve. By a long shot. And yet they have more people then most countries by a long shot.....its mind boggling to me that this is even possible as we watch the contagious aspect of this play out around the world, that they are the only ones that got it right under control... They should have the highest peak of all countries in the world right now, way above and beyond anything USA can ever imagine. Yet...they have hardly anything actually.

So in my mind....they are either lying now about the current numbers...or something very fishy happened with the way they failed to contain it from getting out of china while apparently containing it there. We shall see where all of this leads the world into the next decade.


----------



## Sears Poncho

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I don't get this cynicism about the media. 🤷‍♂️
> 
> The reporting I've read has been fairly decent. The nature of the story is urgent; a lot of people are sick and dying.


Correct. Plenty of ways to get and check news accuracy. When all news is lumped together, and terms like "fake news" raise their ugly head, it's often to deflect the truth.



dzilizzi said:


> It is just the TV news


I don't own a TV. I moved 2 years ago, left the TV and never bought another. It's surprisingly liberating.



JohnG said:


> Very true; a lot of Americans have become inured to "news" being unmoored from actual facts.



Many Americans are idiots.  

The attempt at making "Journalism" into one group is like the music biz being Katy Perry and Yo-Yo Ma. It's silly. It's intentional. There has always been "nonfactual" news, always will be. What's new is a "fake news" moniker that has become meaningless, used by a pathological liar to rally rubes. Infowars got a temporary press pass, Alex Jones was praised by the Dotard. So, anyone spewing "fake news" when people like Alex Jones and Jerome Corsi exist, it's like saying that Walter Cronkite and Alex Jones are in the same profession.


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## Dewdman42

Wall Street Journal, LA Times, NY Times...these are guilty of the same baloney too. There are no trusted sources anymore.


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## Sears Poncho

Nice to see the Dotard Playbook alive and well in this very thread. 

Regardless..... anyone who wants to "trust" the news can begin by trusting themselves. I went to fancy book-lernin' skool, I know that the article from the "Tennessee Star" posted by my drunken ex-family member on FB might not be the shining example of journalism that it appears to be. Common sense is always a good place to start. When someone wants to disparage_ all _news and dump _all _journalism into one category, there's usually an agenda or just plain stupidity behind it. 

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to check FB to see how this virus is a communist plot by the deep derp state to turn us all into gay whales. Or something.


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## patrick76

Land of Missing Parts said:


> The print news, like the New York Times and Washington Post, as well as NPR are doing a decent job.


I think NPR does a very good job. They typically avoid the click-bait style headlines and present information in a pretty straightforward manor. 


Dewdman42 said:


> Wall Street Journal, LA Times, NY Times...these are guilty of the same baloney too. There are no trusted sources anymore.


Are you comparing Infowars to The Wall Street Journal, LA Times, and NY Times?


----------



## Kony

Sears Poncho said:


> Nice to see the Dotard Playbook alive and well in this very thread.
> 
> Regardless..... anyone who wants to "trust" the news can begin by trusting themselves. I went to fancy book-lernin' skool, I know that the article from the "Tennessee Star" posted by my drunken ex-family member on FB might not be the shining example of journalism that it appears to be. Common sense is always a good place to start. When someone wants to disparage_ all _news and dump _all _journalism into one category, there's usually an agenda or just plain stupidity behind it.
> 
> Now if you'll excuse me, I need to check FB to see how this virus is a communist plot by the deep derp state to turn us all into gay whales. Or something.


The Dotard playbook comment you're referring to is representative of the half of America known as "Dumbfuckistan"


----------



## jbuhler

Dewdman42 said:


> A recent law was posted forcing spammers to conform with blocked id's or something like that... Don't know if that is why, but maybe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FCC forces carriers to crack down on fake caller IDs
> 
> 
> The FCC on Tuesday gave wireless carriers until next summer to implement a system designed to prevent caller ID spoofing. The goal is blocking phone
> 
> 
> 
> www.cultofmac.com


Not seeing much change in behavior, tbh. I have my iPhone set to send unknown callers to voicemail and that means spam calling has basically disappeared as a problem, though I still see a large number of spam calls logged in the recent calls menu, so I can see that their frequency has barely decreased.


----------



## Dewdman42

patrick76 said:


> I think NPR does a very good job. They typically avoid the click-bait style headlines and present information in a pretty straightforward manor.
> 
> Are you comparing Infowars to The Wall Street Journal, LA Times, and NY Times?



I'm saying none of the news services are immune to fake news. NONE. ZERO. NADA. NINGUNA. That includes NPR too! Comparing them to Info Wars is equally idiotic, its all relative and obviously Info Wars would be considered highly highly untrusted source, but all of them, every single one, have been caught red handed in recent years publish absolute fiction based on hearsay and unverified information, which was then used by others to sensationalize...and yes all the mainstream media outlets are guilty of this. ALL OF THEM. I do not consider InfoWars a mainstream media outlet or even remotely related. That is a conspiracy theorist crackpot place. Comparing them to NY times is ridiculous comparison designed to downplay the seriousness of the problem with all of the actual mainstream media outlets.


----------



## Sears Poncho

Dewdman42 said:


> publish absolute fiction based on heresy


Heresy? BURN THE WITCHES AT THE STAKE.


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## Dewdman42

meant to say hearsay. Apple corrected it wrongly. Will correct


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## Land of Missing Parts

Dewdman42 said:


> Comparing them to NY times is ridiculous comparison designed to downplay the seriousness of the problem with all of the actual mainstream media outlets.


Dewdman, for those seeking to stay informed on the current pandemic--since getting good information can be the difference between life and death--what do you recommend?


----------



## patrick76

Dewdman42 said:


> I'm saying none of the news services are immune to fake news. NONE. ZERO. NADA. NINGUNA. That includes NPR too! Comparing them to Info Wars is equally idiotic, its all relative and obviously Info Wars would be considered highly highly untrusted source, but all of them, every single one, have been caught red handed in recent years publish absolute fiction based on hearsay and unverified information, which was then used by others to sensationalize...and yes all the mainstream media outlets are guilty of this. ALL OF THEM. I do not consider InfoWars a mainstream media outlet or even remotely related. That is a conspiracy theorist crackpot place. Comparing them to NY times is ridiculous comparison designed to downplay the seriousness of the problem with all of the actual mainstream media outlets.


Glad that wasn't a comparison you were trying to make.

I don't disagree that there are serious problems with some media outlets, but as mentioned before they are not all the same. I think when you talk about all of the media outlets and put it all in caps it doesn't help your position because it sort of implies that you can lump them all together.


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## Dewdman42

There is no single trusted source, sorry that is the simple truth. You have to take it all in FROM ALL SIDES and trust no one particular source, in particular certain sources tend to be heavily biased based on left or right leaning tendencies....and so if you only listen to left leaning source, then you won't know the truth and same if you only listen to right leaning sources. They are all biased, just like the members of this forum; and in the past decade they have thrown journalistic integrity out the window, allowing their biases to influence how they report things. This is just the way it is today, there is not a single source of information anywhere that you can trust, period. If you listen to all of them enough, on both sides, it will start to become clear who the particular personalities are that stretch the truth more than others and you can avoid those personalities and pay attention to the ones, on both sides, that appear to be trying to seek the actual truth.


----------



## Dewdman42

@Patrick, yes I mean all of them. NONE are trustworthy. ZERO. use your own mind ,see all sides and use discernment while trying to bury your own biases...then maybe you will get closer to reality.


----------



## Dewdman42

Regarding pandemic information, I feel right now the beset source of information is Dr Fauci and Birx. They are on TV every single day explaining everything they think they know as we go along. Right from their mouths. Listen to them.

That doesn't mean they aren't changing their point of view on a day by day basis as this progresses.

There are numerous other personalities and experts and various talking heads...they are all over the news, everyone with their own opinion...and basically...you can listen to it all until your head spins off, but they are all over the map personally...so... The only discernible truth is to take it all in, watch what is happening...maybe surmise some more. Just because Bill Gates says something doesn't make it fact, its just one man's opinion. Mind you he has said some very powerful and intelligent things that I happen to agree with, but I don't take his word or any other person's word about what they think should be done, they are armchair quarterbacking too! They have expertise worth listening to and taken into consideration in combination with things from other people... That is a tall order and most normal people do not have it in them to take it in from all sides and think it through rationally and completely and come to sound reasoning on their own. They need and want someone they trust to tell them how it is, and go with that. Ok fine, but just remember...mostly there are just a lot of opinionated armchair quarterbacks out there opining on how they think it is...and really the people that are in the center of it, and on TV every single day, literally for hours, explaining the situation and answering questions.....are Fauci and Birx. Pay attention to them.


----------



## patrick76

Dewdman42 said:


> @Patrick, yes I mean all of them. NONE are trustworthy. ZERO. use your own mind ,see all sides and use discernment while trying to bury your own biases...then maybe you will get closer to reality.


That's not really true I don't think. There are gradations of trustworthiness and some are pretty obviously better than others. And even though I'm sure you could say NPR is left wing, they don't generally publish bullshit like plenty of other organizations do.


----------



## Dewdman42

again, if you want to compare NPR to Info Wars I think that's a pretty obvious difference that doesn't even need to stated. Comparing NPR to Fox news perhaps. They are all guilty of pushing their agenda, every single one of them. sometimes its the subtle details that make all the difference. You cannot trust any of them. sorry but that's the truth.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Dewdman42 said:


> Regarding pandemic information, I feel right now the beset source of information is Dr Fauci and Birx. They are on TV every single day explaining everything they think they know as we go along. Right from their mouths. Listen to them.


Ah, we do agree after all. 

I also agree about not putting all of your trust in one single source. It's good to be a critical thinker...just not a cynical one.


----------



## patrick76

Dewdman42 said:


> again, if you want to compare NPR to Info Wars I think that's a pretty obvious difference that doesn't even need to stated. Comparing NPR to Fox news perhaps. They are all guilty of pushing their agenda, every single one of them. sometimes its the subtle details that make all the difference. You cannot trust any of them. sorry but that's the truth.


I didn't mention Infowars in the last post. I also think that there is no comparing NPR to Fox news. 

What is NPR's agenda, out of curiosity?


----------



## jbuhler

Dewdman42 said:


> again, if you want to compare NPR to Info Wars I think that's a pretty obvious difference that doesn't even need to stated. Comparing NPR to Fox news perhaps. They are all guilty of pushing their agenda, every single one of them. sometimes its the subtle details that make all the difference. You cannot trust any of them. sorry but that's the truth.


NPR’s bias is not left. Nor is CNN or the NYT. And sampling them all and Fox won’t remotely yield balance. There is no mainstream outlet that is even close to being as left as Fox is right. God, I don’t want to defend any of them because they are all basically terrible but Fox is not just bad. It’s toxic.


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## Land of Missing Parts

patrick76 said:


> What is NPR's agenda, out of curiosity?


Jazz.


----------



## MauroPantin

Misinformation is a global problem, not a US exclusive. Drop someone anywhere on the planet and you'll have a version of this same thing with "commie libtards" on one side and "right-wing neo-nazis" on the other, and a silent, pragmatic majority that is sick of all this horseshit and just wants the system to work like it was supposed to. I have to read 5 or 6 newspapers here and then average the truth out after I discard all the adjectives and personal opinions the journalist added to their reports. It really shouldn't be this difficult.

TV I stay away from, other than for fiction that is advertised as such. And Facebook is a swamp, it should never be visited.

For anyone who's interested, Dan Carlin released an episode of Common Sense after about 2 years or something, in which he touches on this seemingly American issue. Which, again, I very much can assure you it is not.


----------



## frontline

jbuhler said:


> NPR’s bias is not left. Nor is CNN or the NYT. And sampling them all and Fox won’t remotely yield balance. There is no mainstream outlet that is even close to being as left as Fox is right. God, I don’t want to defend any of them because they are all basically terrible but Fox is not just bad. It’s toxic.


Well, it’s a matter of perspective: to a leftist, neither CNN nor the NYT would seem to have any leftist bias at all. But Fox would be so far to the right it wouldn’t just be bad, it would be toxic.

While Fox definitely skews to the right, one can’t seriously look at CNN and/or NYT and find no left-leaning bias. Let’s get real! (Either that, or as the NYT famously proposed, “Let’s Call it Trumpvirus”!)


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

frontline said:


> as the NYT famously proposed, “Let’s Call it Trumpvirus”!


Welcome to the concept of editorials and opinion pieces.

You are citing a single opinion piece--of which there are a myriad different viewpoints published on any given day--as if it is the editorial stance of the entire newspaper.


----------



## dzilizzi

Land of Missing Parts said:


> When I hear US folks blame China, it feels like there's an assumption that if it had originated in the US that it would have been prevented from becoming a pandemic. Which seems contrary to all available evidence.


Not really blaming China. It seems like it was an accident by a researcher. But I think they could have been announced a little sooner once they realized it was spreading instead of being contained. And I'm sure, due to the lawsuit happy citizens of the US, any company here might have done the same.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

dzilizzi said:


> It seems like it was an accident by a researcher.


What is the accident you are referring to?


----------



## chimuelo

JohnG said:


> Very true; a lot of Americans have become inured to "news" being unmoored from actual facts. More like, "here's a guy from Georgia and he says...." And here's a mom at the mall, who thinks that.....
> 
> Anecdote and innuendo instead of information, spiced up with "what's the most outrageous right/left wing thing someone posted on Facebook -- lead with that!"



And there’s a good reason for that.



Dewdman42 said:


> I don't agree. There are lots and lots of cases in the print news as well, often times the TV are simply quoting innuendo and unverified garbage from the print media. It is most definitely not trustworthy either.




For me my fascination with useful media started after reading Randolph Hearst’s Memoirs.
Then saw first hand proof of his examples when Saddam Hussein moved his Republican Guard Divisions because CNN reported “Amphibious Landings” in the Persian Gulf that never occurred.

Another example was the NYTimes helping Cheney and Powell’s Gulf War II cause by running front page headlines of WMD Found In Iraq.

They we’re quite persuasive back then. Approval to invade was 30+ %. NYT did a great job with the Sheep as approval shot up to 70+ %.

In 2016 all of American media showed their cards, and then strung their readers along to where we are today.

Sad really. If you pay attention, you’re misinformed, if you don’t pay attention you’re uninformed.

Only thing I believe now are FOIA requests, and select journalists, mostly foreign.

Mexican journalists risk their lives to report on their Cartels and Government corruption. Our “journalists” are agents of change by foreign and domestic billionaires.

It’s not illegal to lie or misinform anyone until you’re under oathe.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

The level of anti-intellectualism in this thread is staggering.

Look, if you read a few mainstream newspapers with a critical mind, apply some common sense, and understand the difference between op-eds and straightforward reporting, you'll be _fine_.

Same as if you read up on VIC about a sample library, watch some walkthroughs, and read some reviews. No one would say you should believe one single VIC post offering an opinion, and take it as gospel. 

Use your brain, don't say that every bit of information is equally useless and unreliable.


----------



## dzilizzi

Land of Missing Parts said:


> What is the accident you are referring to?





Land of Missing Parts said:


> What is the accident you are referring to?


Well, according to a YouTube video (that sounds bad) that was posted earlier, a Chinese research scientist was trying to figure out why bats could have long lives even though they are infected with Covid. They collected bats and somehow in the process there was an accident. One researcher dissapeared and another died. Next thing people who had come in contact with the researchers where dying. 

The video was researched by a guy who reads Chinese and seems very legit with the initial information prior to the "wet market" cover up.


----------



## frontline

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Welcome to the concept of editorials and opinion pieces.
> 
> You are citing a single opinion piece--of which there are a myriad different viewpoints published on any given day--as if it is the editorial stance of the entire newspaper.


Sure, I cited only one example of the myriad others that could be cited as well. I must assume your argument/belief is that NYT is, on balance, neutral in its reporting. Fair enough...it's your opinion, and anyone can take a sampling and come to their own conclusion (like I said, it's a matter of perspective). But although myriad different viewpoints are expressed on, say, Fox News, it's apparently so far right it's not just bad, it's toxic (meaning it permeates reportage/commentary to the extent there can be no balance whatsoever and that it represents a deliberate attempt to lie and deceive). That is what I was responding to. But then, those that consider Fox toxic because of the opinions/commentary of a few apparently don't understand the concept of editorials/opinion/commentary (so really, you're partly making my point).


----------



## JohnG

Actually, I don't think he's making your point at all. Fox is dominated by editorial -- it's on for hours and hours every day, and many viewers don't realise that it's editorial. Sean made $30 million a year last I saw, and that's why Fox is so profitable -- editorial, not news. 

Earlier this week, I saw an interesting survey of approval-of-Trump-by-source-of-news. Fox viewers? 65%. The next highest (from other news sources)? 24%.

So that's odd to me. More than 40%.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

frontline said:


> I must assume your argument/belief is that NYT is, on balance, neutral in its reporting.


I'm mostly just trying to push back against this cynical notion that the mainstream media is untrustworthy, and that the truth is a jump ball. It's not.

People are dying. And a lot of it is because they are not taking proper precautions. On a normal day I wouldn't be arguing media politics like this because it wouldn't matter much.

But right now, having everyone agreeing on the same set of facts is _important_. And it bothers me to see people glibly sowing doubt about _all_ media.


----------



## dzilizzi

I think we all agree that we need the facts. It just hard to agree on where we can get the facts from. Dr Fauci seems to be a good source. Though now that he's been voted People's Sexiest Man, I don't know if I can believe him.  

Really up until the virus hit the US, the doctors really didn't know enough to make recommendations. Early info from the CDC made it seem like it was going to be just a bad case of the flu. Wash your hands. Italy was the first open country that got hit hard. So really, I almost don't blame all of the misinformation on the news networks. Actually, being the drama queens they all are, I'm surprised they didn't try to scare people more earlier, if that makes sense. Normally they seem to be happy to do worst case.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

dzilizzi said:


> So really, I almost don't blame all of the misinformation on the news networks.


Maybe TV as a medium is just not well-suited for delivering fact-based news.

I think that as a medium TV will tend toward entertainment, the way water always moves toward lowest ground.


----------



## frontline

JohnG said:


> Actually, I don't think he's making your point at all. Fox is dominated by editorial -- it's on for hours and hours every day, and many viewers don't realise that it's editorial. Sean made $30 million a year last I saw, and that's why Fox is so profitable -- editorial, not news.
> 
> Earlier this week, I saw an interesting survey of approval-of-Trump-by-source-of-news. Fox viewers? 65%. The next highest (from other news sources)? 24%.
> 
> So that's odd to me. More than 40%.


Sean Hannity routinely identifies himself as a commentator. As does Tucker Carlson. Fox is profitable because of ratings. Advertisers pay for eyeballs. People watch what they choose. Any consumer of media does themselves a huge service by learning the art of discernment.

To me, the "oddly-large" 40% gap you refer to would argue more for left/right polarity than neutral/right (especially considering statistics published by third parties concerning positive-vs-negative Trump coverage at various networks). One can only speculate, but ratings are definitely skewed strongly toward Fox News -- that is a fact.


----------



## frontline

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Maybe TV as a medium is just not well-suited for delivering fact-based news.
> 
> I think that as a medium TV will tend toward entertainment, the way water always moves toward lowest ground.


I agree. Though I fear print media is increasingly following television's lead in an effort to survive (well, TV and online news sources). Hopefully I'm being overly pessimistic.


----------



## Dewdman42

America is caught in a vortex of confirmation bias. The media is just providing people with what they think they want to hear.


----------



## sostenuto

In smaller city here and almost 0 Covid-19 so far .... but State requirements apply daily and huge impact. Only one Costco with line running completely around building ~ 1 1/2 hrs wait, and business hours now limited. 'State' liquor stores (2) reduced hours and now allowing only 10 people at a time. Huge increase in sales and more in State revenues. Would not be nearly as bad if typical alcohol sales existed in most supermarkets ..... State would still get their Sales Tax. 

Definitely support today's stronger mask directive. Will be wearing disposable plastic gloves now instead of just hand sanitizer. Trying to stay upbeat, but it's now shutting things down badly. Truly empathize with large city, major outbreak suffering. 

Avoid national media coverage, but local / regional broadcasts seek out every single individual or event and repeat as desired. Tough to realize the massive burden on families. 
Closest personal experience was gasoline shortage decades ago, in Calif. 
Sincere good thoughts out to all !!


----------



## markleake

dzilizzi said:


> Really up until the virus hit the US, the doctors really didn't know enough to make recommendations. Early info from the CDC made it seem like it was going to be just a bad case of the flu. Wash your hands. Italy was the first open country that got hit hard. So really, I almost don't blame all of the misinformation on the news networks.


Both Italy and the US are not used to seeing these kind of contagious diseases on their own soil. I do think for different reasons though.

For Italy it just happened so suddenly, more bad luck than anything.

For the US it seems as much to do with their governments (federal in particular) forgetting that they exist for the commonwealth, and that you shouldn't play politics with life & death matters. It seems the government, and a large portion of the population, is reaping the results of their own media friends... well, mostly Murdoch.

Plus the US refused testing help early on. That looks to have cost a huge number of lives, sadly.

I think the US is too insular for it's own good. In SE Asia and Australasia, we seem to be managing things a lot better. I have huge fears for Indonesia though.


----------



## mikeh-375

Middle left ground aside,...there's always the BBC for the news. They are providing a decent public service online and in broadcast and look like they are remaining balanced and factual.


----------



## dzilizzi

I don't think they had tests for this at first. Everything was being sent to the CDC to verify. Most likely because local labs may not have had the protective gear and may not have known what they were looking at. 

Lead times for manufacturing anything is at least a couple months after they know what to manufacture. And it really isn't something you can prepare for because they don't know which virus to make tests for until it is actually a problem. It's like the annual flu vaccine. the one you get is not for the actual flu that is going around. They guess based on years of research and are close. But the lead time required makes it impossible to do more than guess.


----------



## mikeh-375

Here's some balance to all the anxiety....

https://off-guardian.org/2020/03/28/10-more-experts-criticising-the-coronavirus-panic/


----------



## jbuhler

frontline said:


> Well, it’s a matter of perspective: to a leftist, neither CNN nor the NYT would seem to have any leftist bias at all. But Fox would be so far to the right it wouldn’t just be bad, it would be toxic.
> 
> While Fox definitely skews to the right, one can’t seriously look at CNN and/or NYT and find no left-leaning bias. Let’s get real! (Either that, or as the NYT famously proposed, “Let’s Call it Trumpvirus”!)


Let's be real? Got to have your left to balance your right. Otherwise capitalism isn't giving something to everyone. 

No, The NYT and CNN are both corporate, center right institutions. They are also both terrible, but that's not a property of them being center right. WaPo is also center right, makes bad mistakes and misjudgments of coverage, and is owned by the fucking Amazon guy but somehow they manage not to be terrible on most days like the NYT is. We have no major media in this country that is any further left than center left, whereas Fox frequently dallies in Infowar and Breitbart territory. That may not fit your "balanced" world view, but if you read the media honestly you'd know that.


----------



## MartinH.

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Maybe TV as a medium is just not well-suited for delivering fact-based news.
> 
> I think that as a medium TV will tend toward entertainment, the way water always moves toward lowest ground.



TV as a medium isn't the problem, ad-financed monetization is the problem. The only answer I can think of is having TV stations that are funded with some form of mandatory per-household payment and operate under certain ethics guidelines. There are people willing to do fact-based journalism without sensationalism, but you have to give them an environment where they can survive. The selective pressures of TV financed by ads or TV financed by voluntary subscriptions will always converge on "event based entertainment" instead of "objective delivery of information". 

@mikeh-375: Is this form of public funding kind of how the bbc works? I don't know anything about it, I'm from Germany. If it is, it would seem like a good idea to me that every american should at least watch that as an additional news source?!


----------



## Michael Antrum

I wouldn’t, the BBC has done severe damage to its reputation over the last few years. In fact there is a very popular thread of opinion in the UK that the BBC should be made a subscription channel, which I think will eventually happen.

Not that long ago, it was a widely held view theat the the BBC was a national treasure, but you will not find that view anywhere near as widespread now.

The news part of the organisation is riddled with ex-political advisers and the like - it’s really a subset of the Westminster clique. It gets even worse when you look at who is married to whom and their other family members. The whole thing smacks of a nepotist country club.

It really is a crying shame, but unless the BBC somehow doesn’t become self aware of how it is being viewed amongst large sections of the country, it could well become a subscription channel In the not too distant future.


----------



## mikeh-375

@MartinH. Yes it is. Households are expected to pay each year £157 and that covers a household and all the TV's and computers within. Although they are scrambling at present to find a way through the streaming age as the competition ramps up and viewing habits have irrevocably changed. The idea of a license fee is probably already anachronistic and will die out with the passing of a generation or two - maybe sooner. The fee although already a subscription of sorts, will eventually be just that I'd imagine.
Either way, the BBC is a public corporation and does pride itself on balance and accuracy. The money goes to running and content and profit comes mainly from selling content abroad.

ahhh, @Michael Antrum (above) has got to some of it before me....

Some of that is true for sure Mike, but their Cov19 coverage is still good.


----------



## Glagoliath

TV?
Oh, that thing when you call a physicist to explain gravitational waves in 3 sentences and thank him for coming and then play commercials for 10 minutes.


----------



## markleake

I've always thought the BBC funding model odd.

Here in Oz we have the ABC. It's independent, and government funded directly, rather than as a licence fee. It's usually viewed as reliable and an essential service. The Murdoch media dislikes it (unsuprisingly), but it's well liked in general.

The conservatives always starve the ABC of funding because they see it as left leaning. Sometimes it is a bit, but mostly it seems more centrist to me.


----------



## markleake

mikeh-375 said:


> Here's some balance to all the anxiety....


I dunno if "balance" is the word... seems more like a series of cherry picked quotes from experts who are cherry picking facts, maybe. Very weird.

I got a little bit through it, and there are plenty of doozies already. Reminds me a bit of a Douglas Adams book, where the hairdressers are completely oblivious to their plight.


----------



## Alex Fraser

Zero&One said:


> My dad is going into hospital now. We can't even visit him, he'll be so scared.
> I'm so sad right now.
> 
> Please please take care everyone.


Ah, mate. So sorry to hear this.


----------



## markleake

dzilizzi said:


> I don't think they had tests for this at first. Everything was being sent to the CDC to verify. Most likely because local labs may not have had the protective gear and may not have known what they were looking at.
> 
> Lead times for manufacturing anything is at least a couple months after they know what to manufacture. And it really isn't something you can prepare for because they don't know which virus to make tests for until it is actually a problem. It's like the annual flu vaccine. the one you get is not for the actual flu that is going around. They guess based on years of research and are close. But the lead time required makes it impossible to do more than guess.


Not quite. Germany had a test developed about mid January, and in mass production soon after. Also, while a bit time consuming, if was possible to use these tests in any well equipped lab, like many hospitals have. You didn't need CDC. Here in Oz that's what we started doing almost immediately when the German tests became available. All the hospital labs around the country were put to the task.

See this article for some info. Nothing about the US, but it explains where the UK went wrong.








Coronavirus testing: how some countries got ahead of the rest


Germany was quick to see the threat while South Korea took an aggressive approach




www.theguardian.com


----------



## G.R. Baumann

As per best source for information, I think there are people who can read science papers on epidemiology,vaccinoloy, microbiology, virology and pharmacotherapeutic developments, and there are people who would not be able to understand science papers, majority falls in the last category.

That being said, there is a somewhat sickening trend of attention economics driven academic COVID-19 publishing! By that I mean that a lot of career focussed academics publish a lot of garbage as a result indeed. It became harder to track down the really valuable papers, but over time, filtering by personal experience works to a a degree.

I posted that before, will post again now, because I think this podcast is of high value for many english speaking people, even if you are not coming from science, Vincent Racaniello and others are doing a stellar job there, scroll down to see the other podcasts on COVID-19.





__





This Week in Virology


A podcast about viruses - the kind that make you sick



www.microbe.tv


----------



## G.R. Baumann

A good overview based on ECDC data with configurable charts i.e. linar to log etc. https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus


----------



## Polkasound

Charter Communications must be doing well. They just increased my Spectrum internet bill by 20%. I was like... ARE YOU KIDDING? THEY'RE PICKING NOW TO RAISE IT? I called and talked to a customer service rep who patched me through to a customer retention specialist. She admitted it was bad timing, but there was nothing she could do about it. I either accept the increase or close my account. Thank you, Spectrum, for really knowing how to pile salt into your unemployed customers' wounds.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Dewdman42 said:


> My hope is that USA will wake up and stop relying on cheap Chinese products so much. We have allowed ourselves to get weaker while we sought to have cheaper leisure lifestyle



This is for the politics OT thread, but those horses left the barn. They've also left China for the next country with cheap labor.


----------



## sostenuto

Yea, yea ..... but these sinister viruses (viri ? ) continue ..... ebola ..... and have for centuries ..... plague et al. 

They morph to kill and were 'created' then morphed ..... not China, not Congo. No longer useful to think other than globally. A newer way is 'Think Exponentially' . Worrisome that cures are beginning to rival disease ..... viewed broadly. 
Governments have worked way to solutions for many ills; yet solutions are 'one size fits all' and 'reacting' after the fact. 

This too will be resolved, but only through magnificent individuals with amazing creativity and perseverance. Then government will take credit and media will attach accordingly. Hang in there baby !!


----------



## chimuelo

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I'm mostly just trying to push back against this cynical notion that the mainstream media is untrustworthy, and that the truth is a jump ball. It's not.
> 
> People are dying. And a lot of it is because they are not taking proper precautions. On a normal day I wouldn't be arguing media politics like this because it wouldn't matter much.
> 
> But right now, having everyone agreeing on the same set of facts is _important_. And it bothers me to see people glibly sowing doubt about _all_ media.



Just all fake news media that lied to us about fake polls, fake investigations, fake impeachments, fake news.
I buy my media from sources I have proven truthful and unbiased.

Free News needs money, needs ratings.
I consider myself an intellectual because I don’t watch or read their bull shit.

10 bucks a month for the truth is reasonable.
12 bucks a year for another, then of course I love reading fake foreign news like CCGN, which sadly I can see parroted on fake news here in the USA.

Amazing how no new cases or deaths in China once real journalists were kicked out.
These PRC officials will see the wrath of the free world once this settles.

Unless Biden wins rofl since him and Hunter made a fortune for re routing Naval patrols so China could take Spray Islands and other contested areas. Hell of a deal for 1.5 billion to the kids company.
Right now they sending cash to Liberals via lobbyists. Liberals are loved by the PRC. Even the Supreme Spisnch Chin of Iran made 150,000,000.

They would absolutely love Biden or any politically correct Liberal.

See, I just shared some real news with you for free, not all free news is fake.
But usually free anything sucks, just the way it is...


----------



## chimuelo

Nick Batzdorf said:


> This is for the politics OT thread, but those horses left the barn. They've also left China for the next country with cheap labor.



VietNam, Indonesia and Malaysia.
We just need to have LIUNA organize after a few years.
Once folks set up shop and make cash, you go for the deep pockets.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Politics section. I agree - with the post above, not the silly one - but there are people who think this is separate from politics (and who are obviously wrong  ).


----------



## KEM

Not at all, it's more of an nuisance than anything as all the concerts I was gonna go to and the movies I was gonna go see got cancelled, and now everything is closed. I'm a young adult that lives at home with no bills to pay, and I'm in really good health, so this whole situation has been really annoying to me.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

chimuelo said:


> See, I just shared some real news with you for free, not all free news is fake.
> But usually free anything sucks, just the way it is...


We don't have to agree on politics, but let's at least be on the same page about this pandemic.

Its real. It's serious. Stay at home, stay safe. If you have to leave the house, keep the 6 feet from people, wear cloth over your nose and mouth, don't touch your face until after you get home and wash your hands.

I want you--as well as everyone else--to stay _safe_....so we can fiercely debate sample libraries for many years to come. Musicians helping musicians.


----------



## chimuelo

Totally agree, this is bad news, which is why those seeking political advantage are a group of soulless discontents who I wish would go isolate themselves and shut their faces.

Best to you and your loved ones.

Watching people around the world helping anyone who needs help makes me proud to be alive. I’ve got an elderly neighbor I fetch groceries for who gives me a list and then tries to tip me. It’s the least I can do, even though the stores are well stocked, we even have masks being handed out and Senior Citizen shopping hours on certain days.

Im totally impressed with the medical professionals, especially in my family. 2 are in New Orleans and doing 23 x 12 hour shifts in a row.

Im confident we can get on top of this after watching those on the front lines risking it all just to help others. 

Cheerz


----------



## MartinH.

chimuelo said:


> Amazing how no new cases or deaths in China once real journalists were kicked out.
> These PRC officials will see the wrath of the free world once this settles.



But there are new cases in China every day on the global graphs. Could well be they aren't reporting all or aren't testing enough, but there are new cases. 



Googling that I landed on CNNs website and watched a clip on it. I thought that didn't sound too one-sided/wrong, then it autoplayed another that I half listened to while surfing around. Then I thought "Wait, what? We almost have a cure in Germany? I think I'd know about that.", and I replayed that video and paid closer attention: 



They structure these things so that when you're only half listening (which I imagine many or most do, since it's TV), you get the completely wrong idea of the situation. But when you watch closely a second time, you see all the parts where they gave you just enough information that they technically didn't lie, but imho it's disingenuous as hell and there's no way it's just accidental. They make it sound like we almost have the cure here, when in truth even in the best case scenario it's never gonna end up being a true vaccine and it's only starting to enter trials now. Also it's unclear to me at what scale it can be manufactured, my impression was that it's only intended for medical personell to slightly improve their survival chances at work. Which makes sense of course, but they're putting a totally different spin on it because they decided the people need some "hope" now. I don't think that's good reporting. 
I'm sure all those medical professionals they interviewed and cut off after one sentence had plenty of caveats and qualifiers in their statements that were left out.


----------



## dzilizzi

This is why The National Enquirer is going out of business. They used to be the ones that would put these headlines that sounded like one thing but when you actually read the article, it was all just speculation and the facts tended to indicate something totally different. Now the "real" news seem to have taken over and we don't need the National Enquirer any more. 

Well, there's a Sharknado marathon today. I prefer watching stuff like this that is a much more true to life docudrama.


----------



## sostenuto

Clearly personal view .... but PBS has become most sinister as seemly hiding behind 'public' shroud. Almost all broadcasts steadily undermining any administration activity, pronouncements, while touting anything from liberal left. Rather catch mainstream updates as I at least know exactly where they are coming from (partisan left or right). 
Last night brief internet news clips noting new focus on getting America open again. I hope so, as seems many have no clue how bad it can be, nationwide, if this shutdown continues. Cure worse than disease ??? Worrisome for sure ! .... but just imho. Every perspective valid these crazy days. Best to ALL !!


----------



## Zero&One

Zero&One said:


> My dad is going into hospital now. We can't even visit him, he'll be so scared.
> I'm so sad right now.
> 
> Please please take care everyone.



My dad has been moved to a ward from intensive care. Much better news!
As he had pneumonia, with his existing health problems the doctors initially said he wouldn't make it. So we are very glad to hear this positive news. Smalls steps each day but we are hopeful ♥


----------



## dzilizzi

Zero&One said:


> My dad has been moved to a ward from intensive care. Much better news!
> As he had pneumonia, with his existing health problems the doctors initially said he wouldn't make it. So we are very glad to hear this positive news. Smalls steps each day but we are hopeful ♥


Glad to hear. Hope he gets better soon.


----------



## Mike Fox

Been reading through a lot of these comments. Sending prayers and positivity to those who have been heavily impacted by this virus, especially the sick. 

Hang in there everyone! We'll get through this!


----------



## patrick76

sostenuto said:


> Last night brief internet news clips noting new focus on getting America open again. I hope so, as seems many have no clue how bad it can be, nationwide, if this shutdown continues. Cure worse than disease ??? Worrisome for sure !


"Getting America open again" before we are ready could cause a million or more deaths and drastically overwhelm our hospitals. I'm not minimizing the very real problems caused by the shutdown, but I just don't think there is any real choice.



sostenuto said:


> but PBS has become most sinister as seemly hiding behind 'public' shroud. Almost all broadcasts steadily undermining any administration activity, pronouncements, while touting anything from liberal left.


Can you cite an example of this? I'm quite sure I don't agree with the generalization, but am genuinely curious as to what specifically you are referring to.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

sostenuto said:


> Clearly personal view .... but PBS has become most sinister as seemly hiding behind 'public'


PBS has become most sinister? 🤷‍♂️


----------



## sostenuto

patrick76 said:


> "Getting America open again" before we are ready could cause a million or more deaths and drastically overwhelm our hospitals. I'm not minimizing the very real problems caused by the shutdown, but I just don't think there is any real choice.
> 
> 
> Can you cite an example of this? I'm quite sure I don't agree with the generalization, but am genuinely curious as to what specifically you are referring to.



Headlines constantly blast current numbers with current ~5000 deaths emphasized. Do you know how many Americans died this 2019/2020 Flu season so far ? Numbers I've seen range from 12,000 to 16,000. When was the last headline you saw emphasizing those numbers? I have no clue what real numbers may be under differing circumstances, but when the entire Country cannot get food or afford to pay for it, there will be repercussions of massive proportions. 
Both paths must be aggressively pursued and everyone sequestered in their domiciles is surely not the answer imho. 

If you watch any nightly PBS Newshour broadcast, hosted by Judy Woodruff, and come away feeling you watched and heard a balanced news program, then I simply, and freely, restate my posted comment. I try often as a loyal and patriotic American citizen, to get some brief accounting of the day's progress, and feel the topics chosen, individuals participating, and views expressed, consistently undermine virtually anything President Trump and his administration are doing or trying to do. If you watch, listen, and come to different conclusions, we must simply agree to disagree.


----------



## Ashermusic

If you watch and listen to Donald Trump, without any commentary even, just the video, it’s impossible for anyone who is a _thinking_ 
patriot to come to any conclusion other than that he is a narcissistic sociopath, wallowing in ignorance, and uninterested in acquiring knowledge, because in his mind he knows everything already better than experts.

just my opinion of course


----------



## sostenuto

Land of Missing Parts said:


> PBS has become most sinister? 🤷‍♂️



I think I was clear in using the word to note how I had usually perceived PBS as standing apart from the four mainstream TV news outlets. I lean far more to conservative postures, and could make a similar remark about FOX _ 'Fair & Balanced' __ really ? That is my basis (proper or not) for using 'sinister' as a descriptor 

Responses do not discuss and I choose to 'zip it' and enjoy music related endeavors.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

sostenuto said:


> Headlines constantly blast current numbers with current ~5000 deaths emphasized. Do you know how many Americans died this 2019/2020 Flu season so far ? Numbers I've seen range from 12,000 to 16,000. When was the last headline you saw emphasizing those numbers? I have no clue what real numbers may be under differing circumstances, but when the entire Country cannot get food or afford to pay for it, there will be repercussions of massive proportions.


People are more worried about a death count that _doubles every 3-5 days_, versus another bigger number that doesn't go up. Spoiler: The one that _keeps growing_ will eventually overtake the bigger number.


----------



## sostenuto

Land of Missing Parts said:


> People are more worried about a death count that _doubles every 3-5 days_, versus another bigger number that doesn't go up. Spoiler: The one that _keeps growing_ will eventually overtake the bigger number.



Not really mystified except by those who choose to react with sarcasm and anger. I have no clue, even given serious attention to large numbers of perspectives. Some seem to know the answers and I defer to them. 

I'm deeply concerned about millions whose IRA(s) and other life savings are being flushed. I know historical statistics, but many do not have ten+ years to await recovery. Maybe my perspective is distorted, but most reports noted suggest that large percentage who contract SARS CoV-2 virus will recover, many without treatment and some with only minor symptoms. There surely can be a plan to get those individuals productive, in most critical activities, rather than locked down at home ?

I'm thinking, asking, looking for better answers. Is that basis for other than civil discussion ?


----------



## JohnG

What do we know? We're musicians. Health people argue that, if everybody just goes back to work and we get a huge wave of sick people, there won't be enough capacity to tend to them and then it will get apocalyptic.

The White House has already admitted we're going to lose at least 100-240k people in the USA. We had only about 550k deaths in World War II; something like 50-60k in Vietnam. Think of all the books, movies, thought, monuments, and stories those deaths provoked. If the lower bound of estimates is exceeded, this could be comparable.

*Information Missing*

A yawning gap in news coverage is the absence of images of the frenzied battles actually taking place in hospitals. I think I've seen far more pictures of 'how Mr. Celebrity is passing time in lockdown' than pictures from hospitals. Meanwhile, desperate, exhausted health professionals are battling for equipment, space, and protective gear. The lack of news coverage of the front lines of the pandemic encourages those who want to get back to work to thinking, "what's so bad about all this?" They see empty streets, people jogging, and think "it's overblown." If they went inside a hospital dealing with this I think they'd reconsider

So, is it overblown?

Doctors, nurses, and other responders are already working at an unsustainable level in hard-hit cities. Those scenes sound pretty bad -- refrigerated trucks in major cities, filled with bodies.

But in rural places, there may be hardly any doctors at all -- one or two serving, in some cases, thousands of people. If even 20, or 50 people get sick with this -- hospital-needing-sick -- two people can't possibly take proper care of them. There is essentially no surge capacity for an unusual influx.

I'm reading that many patients are on a respirator for 20 days, some more. Someone has to keep that person sedated, nourished, cleaned. Who's going to do that for a big onslaught, whether it's in a rural place or one with millions?

*Next?*

So far, in aggregate, food is still available, power is on, gas / petrol stations are open, and the internet is still working. Thank goodness for farmers, police, doctors, and nurses. Not to mention truckers who move the food, warehouse workers who are handling it, and grocers stocking it. Utility workers -- power, cell phones, land lines, news reporters, internet service -- all of them are preserving civil society.

What do you think is going to happen if any one of those systems breaks?

By keeping the pace of new infections limited, there is still the ability to treat people and, I hope, avoid rioting. There has been some, but not much so far in the US.

Let's hope and be grateful if we don't face that one.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

New York 122,031 confirmed cases 4,159 deaths

California 13,438 cofirmed cases 319 deaths

As of 4/5 3:54 p.m.



sostenuto said:


> Is that basis for other than civil discussion ?



Edit: civility can kiss my ass.


----------



## sostenuto

Let's also hope the amazing productive Amercian system does not collapse, if extended future shutdown persists. 
No clue of your background. but mine is part-time, serious pianist, musical hobbyist __ apart from career military, aerospace, computation and global electronic medical products. I object to 'we are musicians' other than speaking for yourself ! 

That has also placed me in large cities worldwide, most in USA. I have already witnessed frightening situations in communities in which the elderly pretended to sleep on their sofa, when gangs broke in and stole their valuables, hoping they would not be beaten or killed. Large cities here present horrific potential under major economic turndown. 
There is every possiblity that many would not be housebound by self-isolation, but in pure fear of violence. I have not once recommended or supported some specific change in government policy, but continuing to weigh many options. 

I read your sincere post with empathy and understanding. Please do not apply your personal perspective to everyone here.


----------



## sostenuto

Nick Batzdorf said:


> New York 122,031 confirmed cases 4,159 deaths
> 
> California 13,438 cofirmed cases 319 deaths
> 
> As of 4/5 3:54 p.m.
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: civility can kiss my ass.



Did not expect this from Moderator. What is improper about asking for something other than attack and sarcasm. 
What have I posted other than raising concern and trying to raise questions about alternatives ? 
This not not professional or appropriate.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

sostenuto said:


> Did not expect this from Moderator



I'm a person who is living through this and worried about his loved ones just like everyone else.

Passive-aggressive crap minimizing the biggest crisis of our lifetimes is very offensive to me - and I'll go out on a limb and say it's offensive to most normal people.

And it's a combination of a health, political, and economic crisis rolled into one - in that order. You can't ignore any of the three.

This is what I expect from a president:









Queen delivers historic speech to promise Britain: 'We will meet again'


In a speech about coronavirus, the Queen echoed the sentiments of Dame Vera Lynn to promise 'better days will return'




www.telegraph.co.uk


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

sostenuto said:


> raise questions about alternatives



The alternative is widespread testing so you know where the virus is rampant, as well as a federal government that doesn't do everything in its power to kill people.

Hyperbole? The latest is that the feds are intercepting supplies ordered by the states!

You'd better be upset.


----------



## dzilizzi

Watching the White House's daily briefing. The social distancing/lockdown seems to be working in places where you can social distance. Not sure it is possible in New York. We have 9,458 current deaths in the US and 69,082 known in the world. Fox (I know) does put on the full daily briefing. You can ignore Trump if you want, but the others are reliable. It is very fact filled for the most part. They just said cases are flattening, which is what they expected once lockdown went into effect. The briefing is on usually at 6 pm ET but tonight was on at 7 pm.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

dzilizzi said:


> Watching the White House's daily briefing.



That's a mistake.


----------



## dzilizzi

Nick Batzdorf said:


> That's a mistake.


I kind of have no choice as my husband puts it on. I really only half listen and the rest is like Charlie Brown's teacher. Mwah mwah mwah mwah ... And then back to the final Sharknado. Because somedays you just want to watch purposeful stupid.


----------



## patrick76

sostenuto said:


> Headlines constantly blast current numbers with current ~5000 deaths emphasized. Do you know how many Americans died this 2019/2020 Flu season so far ? Numbers I've seen range from 12,000 to 16,000. When was the last headline you saw emphasizing those numbers? I have no clue what real numbers may be under differing circumstances, but when the entire Country cannot get food or afford to pay for it, there will be repercussions of massive proportions.
> Both paths must be aggressively pursued and everyone sequestered in their domiciles is surely not the answer imho.
> 
> If you watch any nightly PBS Newshour broadcast, hosted by Judy Woodruff, and come away feeling you watched and heard a balanced news program, then I simply, and freely, restate my posted comment. I try often as a loyal and patriotic American citizen, to get some brief accounting of the day's progress, and feel the topics chosen, individuals participating, and views expressed, consistently undermine virtually anything President Trump and his administration are doing or trying to do. If you watch, listen, and come to different conclusions, we must simply agree to disagree.



The hospitals and our health care system are prepared to treat the seasonal flu. They are not prepared to deal with covid-19 to the degree which they will be forced to if we change course from self-isolating. We can see it already, and we are not at the peak yet. 

The flu and covid differ in important ways. Clearly, covid-19 is new, we have no vaccines for it, we don't have enough respirators, PPE, ventilators, etc. needed to treat it, it is killing at a much higher rate than the flu (the actual rate may be lower because we are not testing everyone that has it, but is still estimated to be much higher than the flu), it will likely overwhelm hospitals as it is now and to an insane degree if we stop isolating, it will cause many other deaths not directly related to corona virus because of hospitals being over capacity, and it is said to be more easily transmitted and infectious than the flu. 

The country was already at it's biggest deficit in history prior to the outbreak (the reasons of which I have strong opinions about but won't go into here, in this supposed economic wonderland) so I definitely don't think now is the time to make that a top priority in the midst of this disaster. There are no food shortages yet and I have not heard that they are expecting anything like that in the immediate future. If people cannot afford to eat, they should be provided with temporary food assistance. The government should expand these programs immediately. Of course, the right is typically against these types of programs, but if someone cannot agree to something like that now, I don't know what to say.

I don't know what you mean by mentioning that you are a patriotic American citizen. What does that have to do with the news?


----------



## Ashermusic

dzilizzi said:


> I kind of have no choice as my husband puts it on. I really only half listen and the rest is like Charlie Brown's teacher. Mwah mwah mwah mwah ... And then back to the final Sharknado. Because somedays you just want to watch purposeful stupid.



Well, if stupid is what one wants, Trump is the ticket into that theater.


----------



## dzilizzi

Ashermusic said:


> Well, if stupid is what one wants, Trump is the ticket into that theater.


Well, this is true.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Blocking. My dog is telling me it's time to go for a walk. Much better activity.


----------



## Stringtree

How has it affected me lately? My love for music has been redirected. I listen to old stuff and enjoy the diversion and silliness that's offered. Earlier times. My own muse is sick in bed, and to write music for my own pleasure seems a selfish and empty pursuit. I cry to things, leap in my own head to glorious music.

I had a serious fever yesterday. And an expensive culinary thermometer that I calibrated using boiling water to find an offset. I sweated all night and broke through to ordinary low-grade fever. The fever lasted twelve hours, and I wondered if I might ever see another Spitfire ad campaign again. More seriously, I am out of the game as far as social interactions. I have no business endangering anyone else. Dammit, I want the DJ Strings!

This is lonely, and it all sucks. We don't even have the resources here to do science and determine whether I was directly affected and could help identify the few people I was in contact with. That's stupid. I went from terrified to numb to gritting my teeth. The best we can do? Mmmm yeah. 

Greg


----------



## Michael Antrum

Nick Batzdorf said:


> New York 122,031 confirmed cases 4,159 deaths
> 
> California 13,438 cofirmed cases 319 deaths
> 
> As of 4/5 3:54 p.m.



It sounds as if its awful in New York. I'm guessing that the concentration of population in such a small geographical area is enabling the virus to spread more rapidly. I cannot begin to imagine what it must be like for your loved ones to be whisked off to hospital and you being unable to be by their side.

Here in the UK we have had around 39,000 cases with 3600 deaths, but of course, we are way behind on testing compared to other countries, so I think it foolish to try and derive anything meaningful from these figures, except for he fact that this virus is a nasty little bastard. As is normally the case, the truly reliable figures will come later on.

But we should never forget that every one of those individual numbers is a personal tragedy for a family somewhere.

Her Majesty made a speech to the country today, a speech that only confirmed how lucky we have been as a country to have such a great head of state. In her long life, she has sent he worst and best of what humanity can do. At the age 93, the UK will be seeing a new monarch soon - they will have very big shoes to fill.

The economics of this are a valid issue, and it may well be the case that more lives are lost, or shortened as a direct result of the economic fallout, than as a result of the virus itself - but that is something we can probably never know for sure. There are very smart people with nothing but the best of motives, trying to plot the best course through this crisis. I am certain they feel the weight of this on their shoulders - and we have little choice but to trust them.

Most of us don't have careers where the consequences of making a mistake can have real consequences. A clinician makes a mistake and the consequences can be severe, and even cause a death. How these people can do this I simply do not know. I'm pretty certain I don't have to courage for that.

I'm fortunate to live in the shires, in a quiet market town. We don't have a single case as yet where I live, but people are still taking this seriously, as they should.

In 1914, the young men of this country were packed off to a terrible war where they were slaughtered in the most terrible conditions. They did so out of a sense of duty and serivce, and many suffered terribly as a result.

As for this generation - we are being asked to sit on our arses and watch Netflix for a couple of weeks, and apparently this appears to be too much of a sacrifice.

It's like some of those cheesy 80's horror flicks - There's alway some prick who has to go down to the cellar and release the evil - and everyone else gets killed as a result...


----------



## Stringtree

sostenuto said:


> I post this Link in ignorance and some naivete' ...... but I will not succumb to close-mindedness and derogatory comment. Watch if you choose. I did, and have serious questions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Join Nextdoor, an app for neighborhoods where you can get local tips, buy and sell items, and more
> 
> 
> Nextdoor is the neighborhood hub for trusted connections and the exchange of helpful information, goods, and services.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nextdoor.com




There are, most definitely, serious questions about this platform. It's interesting to look over the shoulder of someone who belongs to FB or ND, but there's no way in hell I would give these monsters access to my vittles willingly.

Good Lord, remember when it was enough to have a frickin' answering machine with a tape? Now the tape is all wrapped around you. 

Golly, no thanks.


----------



## Andrew Aversa

Whatever that post was, it's been removed.


----------



## Andrew Aversa

Absolute and total BS. For one thing, let's look at credentials. Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases since 1984, serving under multiple presidents from both parties... or someone who's first 10 Google results are such sites as freebirth.ca, YouTube, Reddit, and iheart.com. I could find virtually NO information whatsoever on this guy. Shouldn't that tell you something? A lack of credible citations or sources from respected institutions (hospitals, universities, private sector, etc) should scream "red flag" and "quack".

What he's saying also makes no sense at all. The data does not support it - not one bit.

That video was rightfully removed for the utter bullshit it is.


----------



## NoamL

Got a letter from *ASCAP*:



> Dear ASCAP Members:
> 
> In a parallel universe, last week would have been the week that we held our ASCAP Annual Meeting during the 2020 ASCAP Experience event in Los Angeles. We would have reported that ASCAP had historic high revenues and distributions for 2019 and celebrated all of the amazing accomplishments of our ASCAP songwriter, composer and publisher members.
> 
> Instead, we are all facing the devastating consequences of COVID-19, which has hit all of us personally. It is rare to talk to someone who does not know someone suffering with this virus. Many of us have already lost loved ones, friends and colleagues and we have all lost members of our ASCAP community. While health and safety are our first priorities, we also take seriously our duty to ensure that you continue to receive a steady flow of royalties so that you can pay your bills and feed your families.
> 
> I have received a number of inquiries about how this crisis will impact ASCAP distributions. While there are many unknowns at this time, I would like to take this opportunity to explain what we can about how the negative economic impact of this virus will impact your ASCAP distributions.
> 
> First, it is important to understand that ASCAP distributions are made on a "cash basis" (the money we collect in a quarter is paid out that same quarter, less the costs of operation) as opposed to an "accrual basis" (money collected would be held and paid out two or three quarters later). In other words, we calculate distributions based on current revenues, not past revenues. In normal times, this is a great benefit to ASCAP members as you receive your money faster. During this crisis, as we see more and more of our licensees who pay us start to feel the impact of the economic downturn, this translates into less revenue for ASCAP and less money available for distributions for our members. We have already been contacted by numerous licensees who are attempting to pay less, pay late or not pay at all.
> 
> While you will receive your distributions from ASCAP during this health and financial crisis, we can no longer provide you with a date certain in advance of each distribution. The reason for this is that our licensing revenue will become increasingly variable as businesses remain closed, and the advertising market which drives revenues from television, radio and cable continues to be negatively impacted. Every category of ASCAP collections will be negatively impacted, including television, cable, radio, airlines, hotels, bars, grills and restaurants. While everyone is streaming music and movies at home, not everyone in this country will be able to afford a subscription to entertainment services and that shift will impact revenue. Twenty five percent of ASCAP revenues comes from outside the United States and COVID-19 hit many of those territories before it hit the US, so the ASCAP revenue impact will be global.
> 
> We will make key distribution funding decisions later than usual once we have knowable facts of our revenue collections each calendar month and each quarter. What this means for you as a writer or publisher member is that your distributions may be delayed as compared to last year. For example, the ASCAP writer distribution was previously scheduled for April 6, 2020 and now it will be paid on April 28, 2020. This is because we had to go through a collection cycle of March 31/April 1 payment due dates to determine accurate cash flow before finalizing the funding pool and processing hundreds of thousands of distribution files for payment processing services. Some of the vendor services we use to process and pay the distributions have also been materially impacted by COVID-19, so there is a domino impact that we are constantly navigating in terms of ensuring business continuity. The good news is that as a result of the delay, the April 28 writer distribution will be fully funded as we had originally anticipated.
> 
> I know that much of this is not good news, and you have already been bombarded with bad news every day for weeks, but I think it is important that we are all prepared for the future and we try to limit the number of surprises.
> 
> For those of us who work at ASCAP, our duty is to ensure that ASCAP survives to serve the next generation of creators and publishers. While things are tough right now, I remind myself that ASCAP has survived two world wars and several economic crises, so we stand on the shoulders of our predecessors to successfully fight through this pandemic. ASCAP and our ASCAP members are worth fighting for, and on behalf of all ASCAP employees, I promise you that we will do whatever it takes to fight for ASCAP and fight for you.
> 
> Thank you for your loyalty and your ASCAP membership.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Elizabeth Matthews
> ASCAP CEO


----------



## dzilizzi

Stringtree said:


> How has it affected me lately? My love for music has been redirected. I listen to old stuff and enjoy the diversion and silliness that's offered. Earlier times. My own muse is sick in bed, and to write music for my own pleasure seems a selfish and empty pursuit. I cry to things, leap in my own head to glorious music.
> 
> I had a serious fever yesterday. And an expensive culinary thermometer that I calibrated using boiling water to find an offset. I sweated all night and broke through to ordinary low-grade fever. The fever lasted twelve hours, and I wondered if I might ever see another Spitfire ad campaign again. More seriously, I am out of the game as far as social interactions. I have no business endangering anyone else. Dammit, I want the DJ Strings!
> 
> This is lonely, and it all sucks. We don't even have the resources here to do science and determine whether I was directly affected and could help identify the few people I was in contact with. That's stupid. I went from terrified to numb to gritting my teeth. The best we can do? Mmmm yeah.
> 
> Greg


Watch for the sore throat. My niece said that was the bad part. 

I used a instant read meat thermometer myself. Just have to be careful not to poke my tongue.


----------



## Michael Antrum

dzilizzi said:


> I used a instant read meat thermometer myself. Just have to be careful not to poke my tongue.



if it tells you that you are medium-rare, then call 911 immediately....


----------



## Allen Constantine

Hey folks, 

So the situation has worsened in Bucharest where I live at the moment. We are under strict laws of not exiting our homes without wearing any masks, but there are no more left because everybody bought them. Now I can really understand the toilet paper buyout. Haha. Joke aside, my situation is far from good at the moment as all my work has been put on hold... Hopefully, we will all get over this... I'm sending my prayers to all the people affected by this! Stay safe everyone.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Vashi said:


> You get to live only once.


Not if you're this guy. vvvvv


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

This is a pretty good video....

https://www.vox.com/covid-19-corona..._AfeOiUZnHxLd8OqFJKunaMBh92lwSFjm3PJxkLJqzc3A


----------



## Synetos

Is it possible to ever have one thread without the sharing of political perspectives? People talking out of their arses. I am so sick of it! Stupid BS everywhere!


----------



## micrologus

My mother passed away this morning. There were many elderly people who died at the retirement homes. The situation is really shocking.


----------



## sostenuto

micrologus said:


> My mother passed away this morning. There were many elderly people who died at the retirement homes. The situation is really shocking.



Such a sad and painful scenario for the most vulnerable among us, and who deserve peace and comfort in their last years. Even tougher for family and dear friends as the pain lingers. Sincere best wishes and thoughts for you and all.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

micrologus said:


> My mother passed away this morning. There were many elderly people who died at the retirement homes. The situation is really shocking.



I'm so sorry. My condolences. :(


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

I moved a bunch of posts to this thread:






Covid-19: The Politics Oh The Politics Ooh Ooh Ooh


lol! Have you not been following your own national news for the past two months? Not going to waste my energy. Also, he didn’t listen to Fauci for WEEKS, please stop watching Fox news. I’m Canadian, and watching all of this from the sidelines is scary, especially trump. He was even recently...



vi-control.net


----------



## Ashermusic

micrologus said:


> My mother passed away this morning. There were many elderly people who died at the retirement homes. The situation is really shocking.



So sorry for your loss.


----------



## JohnG

micrologus said:


> My mother passed away this morning. There were many elderly people who died at the retirement homes. The situation is really shocking.



Very sorry for your loss.


----------



## jonathanparham

micrologus said:


> My mother passed away this morning. There were many elderly people who died at the retirement homes. The situation is really shocking.


my condolences.


----------



## babylonwaves

micrologus said:


> My mother passed away this morning. There were many elderly people who died at the retirement homes. The situation is really shocking.


very sorry about your loss. yes, it is shocking right now. loosing my parents scares me most right now.


----------



## Allen Constantine

micrologus said:


> My mother passed away this morning. There were many elderly people who died at the retirement homes. The situation is really shocking.



My sincere condolences. Stay as strong and safe as possible!


----------



## thov72

I am very sorry for everyone who lost someone due to Covid 19. 
I wonder though, how many people lost someone during the flue epidemi 2017/2018?
More than 25000 people died.

I think the worst part about this virus is the fear it spreads. Egoism rises. Tolerance towards people who see things differently dwindles. My freedom is gone. 

As the virus continues to spread, more and more critics are making their opinion public.

Guys, I just want to invite you to look at a few articles written by scientists who have a different opinion than the public one. Feel free to make up your own mind what is right or wrong.
But for heaven´s sake---don´t panic if you´re under 70 and if you´re not in a very difficult health condition.

This is a letter from a German Professor for epidemiology to Angela Merkel:








Open Letter from Professor Sucharit Bhakdi to German Chancellor Dr. Angela Merkel


An Open Letter from Dr. Sucharit Bhakdi, Professor Emeritus of Medical Microbiology at the Johannes Gutenberg University Mainz, to the German Chancellor Dr. Angela Merkel. Professor Bhakdi calls for an urgent reassessment of the response to Covid-19 and asks the Chancellor five crucial...




swprs.org






Infos in English https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/

and you may know the article from that Ioannidis guy from Stanford:








A fiasco in the making? As the coronavirus pandemic takes hold, we are making decisions without reliable data


A fiasco in the making? As the #coronavirus pandemic takes hold, we are making decisions without reliable data.




www.statnews.com







On German TV there even was a Prof for Virology who went to a town with extremely high Covid rates, they tested people, took samples from them, from remote controls, door handles, cats....
Good news : cats don´t seem to catch Covid-19.
"strange" news: They were not able to reproduce the virus in their facilities with samples from door knobs etc. he said that* it is probably not staying alive as long as we thought*.


Stay sane!!!


----------



## MartinH.

thov72 said:


> Good news : cats don´t seem to catch Covid-19.











Seven more big cats test positive for coronavirus at Bronx Zoo


Following a National Geographic inquiry, the zoo confirms that four more tigers and three lions have the virus. This comes the same day as two pet cats in New York become the first in the U.S. to test positive.




www.nationalgeographic.com


----------



## gyprock

thov72 said:


> But for heaven´s sake---don´t panic if you´re under 70 and if you´


This is just not true. There are many people globally in the 20-50 range that have died. Also young people can be carriers even if they may not end up in hospital, hence lockdowns to prevent transmission.


----------



## thov72

gyprock said:


> This is just not true. There are many people globally in the 20-50 range that have died. Also young people can be carriers even if they may not end up in hospital, hence lockdowns to prevent transmission.


people in that range have died because they already had serious diseases.


----------



## gyprock

thov72 said:


> people in that range have died because they already had serious diseases.


True in some but not in others. Do some research. There appears to be some genetic differences in people where one’s immune system goes into overdrive in some and not in others. This virus is not analogous to the flu. It belongs to the SARS and MERS family and is very virulent.


----------



## Michael Antrum

MartinH. said:


> Seven more big cats test positive for coronavirus at Bronx Zoo
> 
> 
> Following a National Geographic inquiry, the zoo confirms that four more tigers and three lions have the virus. This comes the same day as two pet cats in New York become the first in the U.S. to test positive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nationalgeographic.com



Which brave bastard got within 2 metres of that eating machine ? 

Many years ago I used to work at London Zoo, whilst it was the chimps that worried me the most, I always had a healthy respect for the big cats....


----------



## thov72

gyprock said:


> True in some but not in others. Do some research. There appears to be some genetic differences in people where one’s immune system goes into overdrive in some and not in others. This virus is not analogous to the flu. It belongs to the SARS and MERS family and is very virulent.


true that it belongs to the sars family. hence the name sars covid-19 ....
BUT it does have analogies to the "flu", espec. to influenza.
2012 H1N1 was around. It vanished when it got warmer. 
Maybe too early to say but even if you believe in the danger that our media makes out of covid-19
(have you read at least ONE of the articles I posted or similar ones??)
there´s a chance it will disappear when it gets warmer. Southern countries don´t seem to be hit as hard as northern ones. ...


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

thov72 said:


> But for heaven´s sake---don´t panic if you´re under 70 and if you´re not in a very difficult health condition.


No matter your age or health condition, please stay at home.

And if you need to leave the house, keep six feet from other people, try to wear some covering over your nose and mouth, make sure to wash your hands.

If not for yourself, then do it to protect health care workers, and others who are vulnerable.



thov72 said:


> BUT it does have analogies to the "flu", espec. to influenza.


It's a _lot_ deadlier than the flu. Without social distancing measures, the death count in the US is predicted to be in the millions.


----------



## mikeh-375

just to prove @Land of Missing Parts point and then some..............


----------



## MauroPantin

thov72 said:


> Southern countries don´t seem to be hit as hard as northern ones. ...



Southern countries are either undertesting, in full lockdown or a combination of both. I should know, I live in one and we've been at home for a month now. They will to ramp up testing next week and we already know we will continue to be in lockdown at least until may. 

And this is not your soft "hey you guys we suggest you stay at home but in reality we can't stop you" lockdown. You go outside without a good reason and you get detained.


----------



## AndyP

As long as there is no vaccination against covid-19 it is and remains very dangerous.

If we did not have active substances against the other virus strains, there would be considerably more deaths.
This new virus is now added to the list, and if we had 5 times the capacity in medical care it would probably be a little less dramatic.

What some people do not want to understand is that we have been very lucky so far. This is over for the time being.

I understand that we can't sustain these conditions for long. A long lockdown is definitely a big problem. Both for the economy and for the health care system.

But as long as we don't have drugs that are sufficiently tested for their efficacy, no vaccination and no conclusive concept for resuming normal operations, we have to make decisions.

Reboot everything and risk thousands of lives, or everyone is willing to accept restrictions.

I don't want to be in the situation where I have to decide about life and death like many doctors have to do at the moment. I don't want to abandon my elderly fellow men, the people who made our prosperity possible in the first place!

How ungrateful does one have to be to abandon the elderly and sick people who belong to the risk group?

We all bear a great responsibility for our fellow human beings. Should we now close nursing homes for the elderly because they are damaging our economy and our prosperity?

Do we want to treat our fellow citizens the way we treat our environment? Just so that we do not have to limit our selfishness? What kind of a world do we live in if we allow that to happen?

I'm preparing to work at home for a much longer period of time because I belong to the risk group. I don't enjoy it either, but what is the alternative?


----------



## Paul Grymaud

DNA sequence from the covid transcribed into music ? 
http://news.mit.edu/2020/qa-markus-...avirus-and-ai-inspired-proteins-to-music-0402
Developers, please help us


----------



## Kony

thov72 said:


> It vanished when it got warmer





thov72 said:


> there´s a chance it will disappear when it gets warmer


It was hot in Australia when it started spreading there in February


----------



## Kony

Land of Missing Parts said:


> try to wear some covering over your nose and mouth


And cover your eyes as well as it's possible to also get infected if eyes are not covered


----------



## JohnG

lol @Kony 



AndyP said:


> As long as there is no vaccination against covid-19 it is and remains very dangerous.
> 
> If we did not have active substances against the other virus strains, there would be considerably more deaths.



Very true.



AndyP said:


> Do we want to treat our fellow citizens the way we treat our environment? Just so that we do not have to limit our selfishness? What kind of a world do we live in if we allow that to happen?



Good questions.


----------



## thov72

AndyP said:


> We all bear a great responsibility for our fellow human beings. Should we now close nursing homes for the elderly because they are damaging our economy and our prosperity?


absolutely not. It´s very nice to hear something else than the usual "stay healthy" talk and all the fear talk. We shouldn´t only think of ourselves in such a situation. Elderly and sick people are the ones who have the risks of being infected and it is most necessary to protect them.

A view from a different angle: Due to Covid-19 many old people will die alone now. Especially those in hospitals. Even if they don´t have the virus. No visitors, no family to surround them. Family members cannot say goodbye to a loved person, many old people are left in a room all by themselves. Not a nice way to die.

Even if doctors know that someone will die soon they´d rather keep them "safe" than send them home to their family.
This also shows that our society has a big problem dealing with death. 
And this is maybe a reason why death rates for Covid-19 are so hyped. 


Land of Missing Parts said:


> It's a _lot_ deadlier than the flu. Without social distancing measures, the death count in the US is predicted to be in the millions.


I cannot prove you wrong. You wouldn´t believe it anyway.Time will tell and I hope you´ll all look back to this time and say: Why were we so afraid? Why did we only listen to the big media, not critical scientists??
This virus spreads fear like an atomic bomb spreads radioactivity. Please rethink your attitude, even if you believe in such a big death rate.


----------



## gyprock

thov72 said:


> true that it belongs to the sars family. hence the name sars covid-19 ....
> BUT it does have analogies to the "flu", espec. to influenza.
> 2012 H1N1 was around. It vanished when it got warmer.
> Maybe too early to say but even if you believe in the danger that our media makes out of covid-19
> (have you read at least ONE of the articles I posted or similar ones??)
> there´s a chance it will disappear when it gets warmer. Southern countries don´t seem to be hit as hard as northern ones. ...


Not true about the warmer weather. I'm from Australia and it has been warm for the last few months. In fact today it was 23 deg C. We currently have 6152 confirmed cases with 52 deaths. We have done 334,000 tests. Our cases numbers are relatively low in proportion with our 25M population because we closed the borders to China very early in the pandemic. We also started monitoring and tracking individual cases very early. We have plenty of ICU capacity at the moment but there is growing concern about person to person transmission and this is why we continue to be hard on lockdown.

Flu also kills but it's R0 value is much lower than Covid-19. This means that one flu infected person spreads to about 1.4 people. Covid-19 infected people spread to about 2.5 - 3.5 people. A British researcher calculated that after 10 rounds of spreading, one flu person can infect 14 people whereas one covid-19 person can infect 59,000 people. See article:









One coronavirus case can lead to 59,000 infections, top doctor says


Read our live coronavirus updates HERE Coronavirus: The symptoms




www.standard.co.uk





Also without any controls or lockdown it is estimated that about 60% to 75% of people would be infected. Assuming a death rate in the whole population of 3%, this would lead to approx 7.8 million people in the USA. This is the upper end assuming nothing is done. That's why we need proper management of this pandemic.


----------



## thov72

Johns Hopkins University estimates for Germany 1,98 % death rate. New studies in highly infected areas estimate only .37%. Big difference. Might want to add that fear can kill too, especially when you´re old and fragile.
But hey. I´ll stop here. Everybody here seems to know "the truth" already. I´d be happy to continue this discussion in a year .


----------



## gyprock

thov72 said:


> Johns Hopkins University estimates for Germany 1,98 % death rate. New studies in highly infected areas estimate only .37%. Big difference. Might want to add that fear can kill too, especially when you´re old and fragile.
> But hey. I´ll stop here. Everybody here seems to know "the truth" already. I´d be happy to continue this discussion in a year .


Do these stats assume that the virus runs freely without lockdown or medical intervention. Please provide a link.


----------



## patrick76

thov72 said:


> Johns Hopkins University estimates for Germany 1,98 % death rate. New studies in highly infected areas estimate only .37%. Big difference. Might want to add that fear can kill too, especially when you´re old and fragile.
> But hey. I´ll stop here. Everybody here seems to know "the truth" already. I´d be happy to continue this discussion in a year .


Some interesting thoughts in the article below. 









The coming backlash against the public health experts


Will the pandemic renew Americans' faith in the most educated amongst us? Don't count on it.



theweek.com


----------



## Uiroo

thov72 said:


> But hey. I´ll stop here. Everybody here seems to know "the truth" already. I´d be happy to continue this discussion in a year .


Yes, let's do that.

On topic:
There hasn't been any toilet paper in stores in a month, things will get a little different soon :D


----------



## MartinH.

Uiroo said:


> On topic:
> There hasn't been any toilet paper in stores in a month, things will get a little different soon :D



You're in Germany, right? It must have been weeks since I last saw toilet paper in a store shelf. I suggest you try your luck with ordering online from a supermarket delivery service like Rewe.


----------



## Uiroo

MartinH. said:


> You're in Germany, right? It must have been weeks since I last saw toilet paper in a store shelf. I suggest you try your luck with ordering online from a supermarket delivery service like Rewe.


Maybe I'll try that, thanks! But why would they have toilet paper when the stores don't have any?


----------



## MartinH.

Uiroo said:


> Maybe I'll try that, thanks! But why would they have toilet paper when the stores don't have any?



During the checkout process they will tell you what goods probably aren't available at the time of delivery and will suggest alternative products. For that to be possible they need to be tied to a warehouse system that gives them relatively accurate numbers of in-stock items. That means to me, they're likely pulling the goods from storage warehouses instead of supermarket shelves. 

For weeks I couldn't order at all because they had not free delivery slots, but then suddenly a bunch opened up at once and I ordered right away (I was checking daily around the time a new day of time slots gets added). The 16-roll pack I normally order wasn't available, but I could order two 8 packs from different brands (limited to 1 per customer, per item it seems), and they did actually deliver both. 

Good luck! 


A co-worker of my girlfriend was down to two rolls and for her birthday she got toilet paper as a present by friends. They had to pool together individual rolls from their own stocks, because they couldn't buy it anywhere. 

This is getting so ridiculous... toilet paper is gonna be a meme for a while I think.


----------



## markleake

thov72 said:


> Johns Hopkins University estimates for Germany 1,98 % death rate. New studies in highly infected areas estimate only .37%. Big difference. Might want to add that fear can kill too, especially when you´re old and fragile.
> But hey. I´ll stop here. Everybody here seems to know "the truth" already. I´d be happy to continue this discussion in a year .


The death rate varies, and always will, depending on many things. Same as flu. In some areas the death rate could well be that low. But in others it is far higher. That's why you shouldn't cherry pick one figure to meet your narrative of downplaying it. But let's say it is _just_ your figure of 0.37% on _average_ -- that is still far deadlier than the flu in the US!! Even your own figure doesn't support your conclusions.

Go tell the people who work in hospitals, like some members of my family, that the virus is just media panic. They will be insulted. Here we are living and experiencing the effects of it directly. It's not "media" anything, it's real and it's horrible.


----------



## mikeh-375

ok...who'll be the first to make something of this.......

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/04/scientists-have-turned-structure-coronavirus-music


----------



## Uiroo

MartinH. said:


> During the checkout process they will tell you what goods probably aren't available at the time of delivery and will suggest alternative products. For that to be possible they need to be tied to a warehouse system that gives them relatively accurate numbers of in-stock items. That means to me, they're likely pulling the goods from storage warehouses instead of supermarket shelves.
> 
> For weeks I couldn't order at all because they had not free delivery slots, but then suddenly a bunch opened up at once and I ordered right away (I was checking daily around the time a new day of time slots gets added). The 16-roll pack I normally order wasn't available, but I could order two 8 packs from different brands (limited to 1 per customer, per item it seems), and they did actually deliver both.
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> 
> A co-worker of my girlfriend was down to two rolls and for her birthday she got toilet paper as a present by friends. They had to pool together individual rolls from their own stocks, because they couldn't buy it anywhere.
> 
> This is getting so ridiculous... toilet paper is gonna be a meme for a while I think.


Down to two rolls aswell, but no birthday anytime soon :D
But makes sense that the online store is earlier in the chain.


----------



## dzilizzi

Whenever anyone says it is not deadly and we don't need to social distance, I point out the difference between the numbers in New York (149,316) and California (16,957). They got hit a little earlier and aren't able to really social distance, at least in NYC where most of the population lives. They are at about 9 times the number of cases and are at the death toll point that CDC separates out the city of New York City (1780) from the rest of New York (541). Deaths in NYC are over 10 times the whole state of California (169). 

For more reference, population of California - about 39.56 million, with about 4 million in L.A. Population of New York state - 19.5 million, at least half of which is in or near NYC.

Just as another note. In the same period, deaths from the regular flu were 1% of the deaths from covid. 

Deaths numbers: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/COVID19/index.htm
Case numbers: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/cases-in-us.html

Yes, it is hard to get realistic numbers when you do a lockdown. But if you compare places with a better lockdown/social distancing to places without, you can see the difference. 

Oh, and very socially distant Wyoming has only 230 cases confirmed and no deaths. 

That's enough numbers for a Friday morning before I get my coffee.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

thov72 said:


> Might want to add that fear can kill too, especially when you´re old and fragile.


I don't think anyone here is "pro-fear". 

We think the virus is more deadly than you seem to think--and trust the medical professionals who advise us to stay in, wash our hands, etc. But that's not the same thing as advocating widespread fear.


----------



## MauroPantin

Lockdown is officially extended here until the end of April. 

To be honest, it is starting to get to me. Not saying I am about to lose my shit or anything, I'm trying very hard to do the right thing and I am obeying the restrictions very consciously. But the mood has definitely shifted. I am just not sure yet if it is because of the extension, which I expected, or because it is starting to set in that this is not going away any time soon and the entire next year or two is going to be a huge drag with all kinds of new restrictions, from both the government and the ones we are going to have to impose on ourselves.

Also, this is going to sound incredibly privileged but my second biggest pet peeve about this (the first one is worrying about my loved ones but everybody's feeling that so I don't think it counts) is that I won't be able to go back to sport climbing. Or at least not indoors in the gym that is close to my house, which I need to do often to stay sane. The closest outdoor crag is 450 km (280 miles) away, so no options there. It is incredibly selfish as a statement because a lot of people are suffering horrible hardships compared to this tiny annoyance, it makes me feel a bit guilty to think about it. But the lack of climbing has a big effect on my mood, it's undeniable. 

I also have this fear that all of us could be losing our collective patience because of these minor inconveniences while adapting to the new reality. I have no idea how everybody else is coping but my fear is we could end the lockdown and have a lot of stress-related violence going around because people are fed up.


----------



## MartinH.

MauroPantin said:


> Also, this is going to sound incredibly privileged but my second biggest pet peeve about this (the first one is worrying about my loved ones but everybody's feeling that so I don't think it counts) is that I won't be able to go back to sport climbing. Or at least not indoors in the gym that is close to my house, which I need to do often to stay sane. The closest outdoor crag is 450 km (280 miles) away, so no options there. It is incredibly selfish as a statement because a lot of people are suffering horrible hardships compared to this tiny annoyance, it makes me feel a bit guilty to think about it. But the lack of climbing has a big effect on my mood, it's undeniable.



I don't know what they are called but there are boards with various climbing grips on them that you can mount to the wall so that you can keep excercising your finger strength. Not remotely the same thing, I know, but at least you could maybe maintain the strength you've built so far.





thov72 said:


> Might want to add that fear can kill too, especially when you´re old and fragile.



For sure! Feel free to recommend any coping strategies for mental damage control that don't compromise the epidemiological damage control.


Personally I've been playing lots od Dark Souls 2 and 3 lately.


----------



## MauroPantin

MartinH. said:


> I don't know what they are called but there are boards with various climbing grips on them that you can mount to the wall so that you can keep excercising your finger strength. Not remotely the same thing, I know, but at least you could maybe maintain the strength you've built so far.



Yep, fingerboards! I have one here at home, It's great for training. I am using it every day to keep my strength. But I miss the movements on the wall and the terror of going for that risky next move (which you end up doing anyway because you know you're going to be okay!). And the intellectual challenge of figuring out how you're supposed to move, the people at the gym. If I start thinking I realize I miss a lot of things about it. I do the stretching and the training and all of the things you're supposed to do for keeping your climbing game. Just no real climbing =(


----------



## Diablo IV

Has David Icke been mentioned here already? If not, what do you reckon? Another crazy boy?
Londonreal tv if you care at all. Cheers.


----------



## Paul Grymaud

Good examples of social distancing


----------



## toomanynotes

Diablo3 said:


> Has David Icke been mentioned here already? If not, what do you reckon? Another crazy boy?
> Londonreal tv if you care at all. Cheers.


yeah the world is run by bloody thirsty pedo Alien lizards who get their kick from desserts of human misery and fear. Next! Actually I preferred the Matrix


----------



## Diablo IV

toomanynotes said:


> yeah the world is run by bloody thirsty pedo Alien lizards who get their kick from desserts of human misery and fear. Next! Actually I preferred the Matrix



Watched now some Valuetainment videos, damn it, so much stuff going on I don't know what to believe.
(Former Brigadier General Robert Spalding and Economist Danielle DiMartino Booth).

Now I am really scared, at some point in the Spalding's interview I was shitting my pants under my sheets.

Very very interesting to say the least.

I am glad at least I don't sell my music to China


----------



## toomanynotes

Diablo3 said:


> Watched now some Valuetainment videos,



there’s nothing like escapism!, I like Ufo’s, but don’t believe in lizards!


----------



## Maxtrixbass

After six weeks of "sheltering in place" I had to get out and take a short drive. I should say the nearest town is about 10 miles away, so that's pretty much " a trip to the store" for people around here, but since I was out of a job and had enough groceries I really didn't need to go out until yesterday.

I guess I was a little surprised that nothing seemed different. The parking lots were pretty full, most places were open, even the plant nursery was open with a fairly full parking lot. I'm outside of Seattle which was kind of ground zero at the outset and we have been under "social distancing" and "essential businesses only" for awhile, yet I didn't even see many face masks much less more limited activity. Granted that's Stanwood, a pretty small town out of the metropolis, so maybe the more populated areas around Seattle are different, but still really really surprising, especially since we seem to be held up as the "place that flattened the curve early". Even traffic seemed ordinary.

I guess I was expecting the town to seem a bit more deserted.

So what are you all seeing? Does it seem life around you has changed much? Did it change and now people are "going back to normal"?


----------



## Ashermusic

Maxtrixbass said:


> After six weeks of "sheltering in place" I had to get out and take a short drive. I should say the nearest town is about 10 miles away, so that's pretty much " a trip to the store" for people around here, but since I was out of a job and had enough groceries I really didn't need to go out until yesterday.
> 
> I guess I was a little surprised that nothing seemed different. The parking lots were pretty full, most places were open, even the plant nursery was open with a fairly full parking lot. I'm outside of Seattle which was kind of ground zero at the outset and we have been under "social distancing" and "essential businesses only" for awhile, yet I didn't even see many face masks much less more limited activity. Granted that's Stanwood, a pretty small town out of the metropolis, so maybe the more populated areas around Seattle are different, but still really really surprising, especially since we seem to be held up as the "place that flattened the curve early". Even traffic seemed ordinary.
> 
> I guess I was expecting the town to seem a bit more deserted.
> 
> So what are you all seeing? Does it seem life around you has changed much? Did it change and now people are "going back to normal"?



In LA, very few people around, almost all wearing masks since the order, just a few chowderheads ignoring it.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

There are far more people than usual in my neighborhood walking, walking their dogs, jogging, and riding bikes.

Same in Santa Monica, where there are twice as many bikes on San Vicente as usual, and lots of people walking on the residential streets.

But other parts of Los Angeles are a ghost town. Ventura Blvd., the main E-W street across the San Fernando Valley, is empty. The freeways are a dream. No traffic anywhere, no rush hour... if it weren't so horrible, it would be great.


----------



## tmhuud

The big issue in Hollywood now is the joggers who run full steam ahead on sidewalks, no masks. The biggest issue is they are mowing down older folks walking their dogs or just about anyone taking a stroll. It’s funny how the hive mind takes over though. After our neighborhood group started complaining the joggers have all relocated to the street! Still no masks though.


----------



## dzilizzi

I've only gone to the vet a couple times. My husband has gone to the grocery store a few times - about once a week for perishable stuff. He wears a mask and says there is no lines other than at check out and everyone is social distancing. I handle the not leaving the house better so I let him do most of the errands. 

At the vet, I just sit in my car and call when I get there. The tech comes out all suited up and takes your pet in. The call to give you instructions and you pay over the phone. Then they bring out your pet a few minutes later. It's pretty well set up.


----------



## NYC Composer

Diablo3 said:


> Has David Icke been mentioned here already? If not, what do you reckon? Another crazy boy?
> Londonreal tv if you care at all. Cheers.


Might be just a LITTLE crazy-he believes in giant 12 foot tall intelligent lizards as the Master Race. 

At one point he believed he was Jesus.


----------



## stixman

My main paying gig for the last 30 years has been/is maintaining Parks & Open Spaces for the public (became a father paid for my equipment etc and I would become a star later lol) 30% of the workforce have been Furloughed 4 weeks ago (never knew it existed!) up to 3 months paid leave 80% paid by the Gov which at first I was excited to be put on it 3 months to concentrate full time on music something I could only dream about!
Of course it turns out I was not selected because they consider me essential duh so work as usual which turns out to be a blessing as being furloughed means potentially up for redundancy!
I am happy being ‘instrumental’ in the public enjoying green spaces where they can escape to momentarily before being moved on by park patrols and police officers!
Trees and plants and shrubs all performing for public...at one point because the public were not social distancing they closed the parks so for a whole week I had entire parks all to myself which selfishly I loved but once all playgrounds etc were closed they reopened the parks with patrols monitoring activity...so I continue to dream of non stop music making  keep safe!


----------



## tmhuud

Ashermusic said:


> In LA, very few people around, almost all wearing masks since the order, just a few chowderheads ignoring it.



BTW- If you had a performing GIG canceled due to the virus you can apply for dollars. I think its somewhere between $400 and a grand or so depending on your act.

Might be helpful if I had a link? Duh: https://culturela.org/grants-and-calls/aer-fund/


----------



## JT

I live in a small town in Minnesota. There's not a lot of people with the virus here, but we're all still being cautious. I went to the grocery store today, first time in a month. Everyone's keeping their distance. So I'm watching the woman in front of me go through the checkout. She pulls out her purse, licks her finger and pulls a bill out. Does it again and again and again. She puts her saliva on each bill and hands it to the cashier. Now the cashier will touch everyone elses food. I couldn't stop myself and I said rather loudly, "what the heck are you doing". And yet, everyone else with masks on were looking at me as if I'm the nutcase. I couldn't believe it.


----------



## NYC Composer

I zig and zag avoiding people on paths in the parks here in NYC. Many people are just plain stupid, and it’s hard to fix stupid.


----------



## Bluemount Score

NYC Composer said:


> I zig and zag avoiding people on paths in the parks here in NYC. Many people are just plain stupid, and it’s hard to fix stupid.


Here in Germany we heard a couple of times how the situation in NYC was very bad


----------



## Per Boysen

Very few ppl if you look out the window here in Stockholm. Strange times. A half-time teaching job got postponed which frees up time to work faster making some music videos I had originally planned to shot a few months ahead. Like this one, sporting the Spitfire Chamber Strings for the Phrygian spiccato lines.


----------



## Uiroo

I got toilet paper! Woooo!


----------



## mikeh-375

Uiroo said:


> I got toilet paper! Woooo!



don't you mean Poooo!


----------



## woodslanding

Uiroo said:


> Maybe I'll try that, thanks! But why would they have toilet paper when the stores don't have any?


Supply chains for business are completely different from those for consumers. Product is different too. Most businesses are suddenly not using any toilet paper, but it's not easy to get that into stores.... Don't know if that's true in Germany, but it certainly is in the US. These days, folks are getting TP with their takeout food. Restaurants' use has.. errr.... bottomed out.


----------



## Guy Bacos

For the last few weeks, I've been practicing each day my tennis against a school brick wall, it is so eerie to look around, everything is lifeless, just like in these apocalyptic type movies. Of course, I'm not complaining since I have the entire surface to myself, but still, you want to say: "Anybody???"


----------



## Thundercat

NYC Composer said:


> Might be just a LITTLE crazy-he believes in giant 12 foot tall intelligent lizards as the Master Race.
> 
> At one point he believed he was Jesus.


No, he didn’t believe he was Jesus. He was misrepresented and raked over the coals publicly.

a hell of a lot of what he has to say makes perfect sense. And some of it is out there. But that doesn’t make him nuts.

just watched an hour long video of his tonight. He’s saner thanmost if you open your mind...


----------



## Thundercat

thov72 said:


> I am very sorry for everyone who lost someone due to Covid 19.
> I wonder though, how many people lost someone during the flue epidemi 2017/2018?
> More than 25000 people died.
> 
> I think the worst part about this virus is the fear it spreads. Egoism rises. Tolerance towards people who see things differently dwindles. My freedom is gone.
> 
> As the virus continues to spread, more and more critics are making their opinion public.
> 
> Guys, I just want to invite you to look at a few articles written by scientists who have a different opinion than the public one. Feel free to make up your own mind what is right or wrong.
> But for heaven´s sake---don´t panic if you´re under 70 and if you´re not in a very difficult health condition.
> 
> This is a letter from a German Professor for epidemiology to Angela Merkel:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Open Letter from Professor Sucharit Bhakdi to German Chancellor Dr. Angela Merkel
> 
> 
> An Open Letter from Dr. Sucharit Bhakdi, Professor Emeritus of Medical Microbiology at the Johannes Gutenberg University Mainz, to the German Chancellor Dr. Angela Merkel. Professor Bhakdi calls for an urgent reassessment of the response to Covid-19 and asks the Chancellor five crucial...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> swprs.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Infos in English https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/
> 
> and you may know the article from that Ioannidis guy from Stanford:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A fiasco in the making? As the coronavirus pandemic takes hold, we are making decisions without reliable data
> 
> 
> A fiasco in the making? As the #coronavirus pandemic takes hold, we are making decisions without reliable data.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.statnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On German TV there even was a Prof for Virology who went to a town with extremely high Covid rates, they tested people, took samples from them, from remote controls, door handles, cats....
> Good news : cats don´t seem to catch Covid-19.
> "strange" news: They were not able to reproduce the virus in their facilities with samples from door knobs etc. he said that* it is probably not staying alive as long as we thought*.
> 
> 
> Stay sane!!!


You’ll get no love or understanding from this group. If it’s not on CNN people think you’re nuts.

I will think for myself too. There is an agenda here that reaches far beyond safety.

Hundreds of thousands deaths/year from auto accidents but we don’t stop driving. Think people. Think.

I will get flamed and it’s ok. Thinking for oneself is always risky.


----------



## markleake

Thundercat said:


> Thinking for oneself is always risky.


Usually this is code for you've watched something on YouTube, and now you suddenly know lots of stuff that ordinary experts in the field don't know, somehow.


----------



## Thundercat

markleake said:


> Usually this is code for you've watched something on YouTube, and now you suddenly know lots of stuff that ordinary experts in the field don't know, somehow.


Nope. It’s code for think for yourself.

but thanks for the sarcasm and disdain.


----------



## markleake

Thundercat said:


> but thanks for the sarcasm and disdain.


It would be sarcasm if I didn't really think that. I'm not here to fight or look down on you... I've just noticed most of these types of comments come from people who are not experts, but still see themselves as knowing as much (or more?) than the experts. It's not a great attitude to have.


----------



## gyprock

Thundercat said:


> Hundreds of thousands deaths/year from auto accidents but we don’t stop driving. Think people. Think.


Yes but if the speed limit was 5mph you would have almost zero auto deaths. The idea of a virus lockdown is the equivalent of limiting the speed limit to 5mph. Even so there are more deaths per day now in the US than heart disease. If you took the foot off the pedal as one very slippery world leader wants to do, there will be a huge increase in deaths. Even a Fox News watcher would understand that (or maybe not).


----------



## NYC Composer

Thundercat said:


> No, he didn’t believe he was Jesus. He was misrepresented and raked over the coals publicly.
> 
> a hell of a lot of what he has to say makes perfect sense. And some of it is out there. But that doesn’t make him nuts.
> 
> just watched an hour long video of his tonight. He’s saner thanmost if you open your mind...


Ok, he should stood up on a box in London and SAID he was Jesus. Numerous times-and the 12 foot lizard thing is another thing he’s said a lot. I guess if you believe in very tall intelligent lizards, he makes a of of sense. To YOU.


You might want to read Jon Ronson on the subject.


----------



## NYC Composer

Re David Icke

I realize is just Wiki, but still, here’s your guy who “makes a lot of sense”

His endorsement of the antisemiticforgery The Protocols of the Elders of Zion in The Robots' Rebellion and And the Truth Shall Set You Free led his publisher to refuse to publish his books, which were self-published thereafter.[15]

Icke believes that the universe is made up of "vibrational" energy and consists of an infinite number of dimensions that share the same space.[16][9][17] He advocates the existence of an inter-dimensional race of reptilian beings called the Archons (or Anunnaki) who have hijacked the earth and that a genetically modified human–Archon hybrid race of shape-shifting reptilians known as the Babylonian Brotherhood, the Illuminati, or the "elite", manipulate global events to keep humans in constant fear so the Archons can feed off the "negative energy" this creates.[16][18][19][20]


----------



## Thundercat

markleake said:


> It would be sarcasm if I didn't really think that. I'm not here to fight or look down on you... I've just noticed most of these types of comments come from people who are not experts, but still see themselves as knowing as much (or more?) than the experts. It's not a great attitude to have.


I do not know more than any experts. I never claimed to know more than you or anyone. I hear you.

I do a LOT of research but that doesn't mean I know anything.

I always have, and always will, advocate people think for themselves. Even the experts differ in opinions.

here’s an interesting perspective.

peace.

mike

A Systems Biologist’s perspective on Covid-19


----------



## Thundercat

NYC Composer said:


> Ok, he should stood up on a box in London and SAID he was Jesus. Numerous times-and the 12 foot lizard thing is another thing he’s said a lot. I guess if you believe in very tall intelligent lizards, he makes a of of sense. To YOU.
> 
> 
> You might want to read Jon Ronson on the subject.


I watched the original clip. It’s not what he meant and he was quoted out of context.

but do keep attacking people instead of making good arguments about your position.


----------



## Thundercat

NYC Composer said:


> Re David Icke
> 
> I realize is just Wiki, but still, here’s your guy who “makes a lot of sense”
> 
> His endorsement of the antisemiticforgery The Protocols of the Elders of Zion in The Robots' Rebellion and And the Truth Shall Set You Free led his publisher to refuse to publish his books, which were self-published thereafter.[15]
> 
> Icke believes that the universe is made up of "vibrational" energy and consists of an infinite number of dimensions that share the same space.[16][9][17] He advocates the existence of an inter-dimensional race of reptilian beings called the Archons (or Anunnaki) who have hijacked the earth and that a genetically modified human–Archon hybrid race of shape-shifting reptilians known as the Babylonian Brotherhood, the Illuminati, or the "elite", manipulate global events to keep humans in constant fear so the Archons can feed off the "negative energy" this creates.[16][18][19][20]


I’m not going to address your comments one by one because you already believe what you believe, and that’s ok.

But the underpinnings of quantum physics is all about vibration, as is the foundation of light and all matter. This becomes a viable scientific discussion - some scientists believe the universe is made up of vibrational strings.

as for the rest - there’s more to heaven and earth Horatio...


----------



## NYC Composer

If you believe the giant lizard theory, okay then.


----------



## Thundercat

gyprock said:


> Yes but if the speed limit was 5mph you would have almost zero auto deaths. The idea of a virus lockdown is the equivalent of limiting the speed limit to 5mph. Even so there are more deaths per day now in the US than heart disease. If you took the foot off the pedal as one very slippery world leader wants to do, there will be a huge increase in deaths. Even a Fox News watcher would understand that (or maybe not).


Do you know that hospitals are over-reporting Covid deaths? If someone dies of cancer but has Covid, it’s counted as a Covid death.

that over-inflates the numbers by a lot.

I’m just saying that all the 6:00 news tells you isn’t necessarily accurate.

there are a lot of moving parts here and it’s important to get information from a wide variety of sources.

I’m just as concerned, and locked down, as the rest of you. I also don’t believe everything they tell me, regardless of credentials.

At one time it was common knowledge that bloodletting cured disease. That washing hands between surgeries had no benefit.

Every generation has its hubris, and ours is that we think we know everything because an expert said it on the internet. Or because the government said it. Ha.

think about every source you read and question with your own mind. Not everything is true. And that doesn’t make it all a conspiracy theory either. We can simply be wrong about some things.

Already Fauci is lowering the projected deaths downwards by a lot. That should give us all hope.

I’m not a nut job and I’m not the enemy here. I’m just suggesting everyone take a wider view of what’s happening and don’t trust everything you hear as absolute fact.


----------



## Thundercat

NYC Composer said:


> If you believe the giant lizard theory, okay then.


You’re really fixated on this aren’t you? I don’t have to believe everything anyone says in order to derive benefit from SOME of what they say.

much of what he says is incredibly articulate and prescient. Much of what he’s written about has come to pass or appears to be. I take value in all voices.

I also think I’ve seen ghosts and talked to dead relatives. But I don’t even necessarily believe myself on this.

peace man. I’m on your side. Life. Joy, fun, and making music. Let’s just agree to disagree on some things.


----------



## Michael Antrum

NYC Composer said:


> Re David Icke
> 
> I realize is just Wiki, but still, here’s your guy who “makes a lot of sense”
> 
> His endorsement of the antisemiticforgery The Protocols of the Elders of Zion in The Robots' Rebellion and And the Truth Shall Set You Free led his publisher to refuse to publish his books, which were self-published thereafter.[15]
> 
> Icke believes that the universe is made up of "vibrational" energy and consists of an infinite number of dimensions that share the same space.[16][9][17] He advocates the existence of an inter-dimensional race of reptilian beings called the Archons (or Anunnaki) who have hijacked the earth and that a genetically modified human–Archon hybrid race of shape-shifting reptilians known as the Babylonian Brotherhood, the Illuminati, or the "elite", manipulate global events to keep humans in constant fear so the Archons can feed off the "negative energy" this creates.[16][18][19][20]



To be fair, you only have to look at most of our politicians and 'leaders', and then this all seems much more feasible....


----------



## NYC Composer

Michael Antrum said:


> To be fair, you only have to look at most of our politicians and 'leaders', and then this all seems much more feasible....


Oh?

Tell me the vast amount of politicians are corrupt, self serving, bad people, inefficient, whatever-I could go with that.

Tell me they’re actually 12 foot alien lizards known as the illuminati, tell me that Jews planned the Holocaust, tell me that you endorse the faked Anti-Semitic screed “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”...well., well...not so much. In fact, not at all. All things mad David Icke has promoted.


----------



## Michael Antrum

NYC Composer said:


> Oh?
> 
> Tell me the vast amount of politicians are corrupt, self serving, bad people, inefficient, whatever-I could go with that.
> 
> Tell me they’re actually 12 foot alien lizards known as the illuminati, tell me that Jews planned the Holocaust, tell me that you endorse the faked Anti-Semitic screed “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”...well., well...not so much. In fact, not at all. All things mad David Icke has promoted.



You may also wish to consider the possibility I was not being entirely serious......


----------



## gyprock

Thundercat said:


> Do you know that hospitals are over-reporting Covid deaths? If someone dies of cancer but has Covid, it’s counted as a Covid death.
> 
> that over-inflates the numbers by a lot.


People are always dying but at the moment, for many, Covid is acting as a catalyst for death. That cancer or heart disease patient may have continued living for a number more years with their usual health management. So in my eyes, they should be counted as a Covid related death.

On the flip side, there are many Covid deaths not being reported e.g. the homeless or those in countries such as Indonesia, Africa and some Latin American countries where testing and equipment is inadequate and the Covid growth is far short of the peak. There are also a lot of people carrying Covid that will become symptomatic sometime in the next 14 days.

There is also China that is currently under reporting because they want to get their economy back on track but the reality is that the shit is going to hit the fan in regions outside of the Hubei province. It has already started. Even in the Hubei province there is evidence of a 2nd outbreak.

BTW, I'm from Australia and I watch news from many countries. We see all the Trump related Republican vs Democrat bullshit along with his daily press briefings. But, we also get a good coverage from Europe, Asia and Australia/NZ so it is pretty easy to see a pattern of what is bullshit and what is not. It is also very easy to see which news networks are totally biased and are not reporting the actual facts. Need I say more.


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

Thundercat said:


> I do a LOT of research



Given that you assign even the slightest bit of credence to Icke, what you're doing isn't research. 
Scientists do research.
The whole scientific method is built around establishing hypotheses and trying to disprove them.
Introducing a racist YouTube conspiracist who thinks the Royal Family are alien lizards and vaccines and phone masts are causing a virus, and saying 'gee guys, I don't know what to believe anymore but this guy sure is interesting' - that is at best intellectual cowardice. At worst, it leads to the willful spread of misinformation that has seen people lynched, tyrants elected and even worse.

So please, for all our sakes, grow a pair - look at what you're sharing and give it some thought.


----------



## Vik

Thundercat said:


> Do you know that hospitals are over-reporting Covid deaths? If someone dies of cancer but has Covid, it’s counted as a Covid death.


I know this has been mentioned when discussing the high death rates in Italy. But is there any evidence that all hospitals do that, in all countries?

I got a phone call from a nice old woman I know yesterday, nice - but also the only person I've met who thinks that Trump some kind of world saviour. She is somehow excused due to her high age, but - like many others – she came up with several statements based on assumptions or misunderstandings. She had also heard that if people had cancer/diabetes/heart problems and corona, sometimes/in some countries, corona is listed as the death reason, but mixed it all up and claimed that all deaths are now always listed as corona deaths (!). 

I explained that this wasn't the case, but then she also claimed that she and a friend had looked at the numbers from a lot of countries, and claimed that quarantine/isolation had no effect – and that the numbers in US wasn't worse than eg restrictive countries in Europe.

With reference to *this* list, I said that Norway, one of the more restrictive countries in Europe, had 30 deaths per 1 million citizens, while USA has 118, and that USA had tested circa 11 000 citizens per 1 million, while Norway had tested circa 26 000.... her response was that we don't need to talk about numbers, and went back to talking about there being so much fake news out there (which is being misused, often by Trump* fans, to deny information or facts they don't like).

Then there's that standard 'argument' that the Covid-19 deaths don't matter much because more people die of flu anyway. But not only doesn't a lot of people dying of one cause make it OK that a number of people are dying of another cause, but since the number of people who are have the Covid19 virus most likely are _much_ lower than the number of people who have 'normal' influence viruses, we need to look at how many who die from Covid19 per eg 1 million confirmed cases with how many who dies of normal flu per 1 million confirmed cases.

I also find myself making conclusions based on assumptions now and then, and try to correct myself. But some people, unfortunately including a number journalists, are cherry picking more or less valid arguments and facts (or "facts") to support a conclusion they came to before they saw this info or pseudo-info, and I found yesterday that the way this otherwise charming old lady defends Trump blindly affects my friendship with her.

*This isn't actually about 'politics', it's of course also bad if someone defends weak or non-existing 'facts' or arguments from the other side. I saw that a week or two ago, when some journalist wrote that USA was the country in the world which has hit the hardest by Covid19, comparing with with Italy and Spain – but ignoring that there are 330 million people in USA vs 60 mill in Italy and 47 mill in Spain.


----------



## Michael Antrum

I've personally heard of someone who lost their grandfather in a care home at the grand old age of 95. They had been ill for some time with a dicky heart, with multiple other issues. 

When the death certificate came through later on they were shocked to discover the Covid 19 had been put down on the death certificate, and as far as they knew that he had never even been tested for it. It was, as far as the family were concerned, a sad, but hardly unexpected passing of a loved family member.

I don't think there's any conspiracy per se, but things just get hyped and confused in a crisis somewhat. If everyone keeps telling you there are a lot of burglars about, you start to see them everywhere to a degree, it's human nature.


----------



## Vik

Michael Antrum said:


> When the death certificate came through later on they were shocked to discover the Covid 19 had been put down on the death certificate, and as far as they knew that he had never even been tested for it.


I would be very surprised if they listed C19 as a reason for his death if they hadn't tested him. Why would they do that? I know about another case, where they tested that person for C19 post mortem to see if the virus could be (part of) the death reason - and clearly stated that C19 was not the reason he died. but non isolated examples like that tell anything about what most hospitals/countries do,


----------



## markleake

Thundercat said:


> I do not know more than any experts. I never claimed to know more than you or anyone. I hear you.
> 
> I do a LOT of research but that doesn't mean I know anything.
> 
> I always have, and always will, advocate people think for themselves. Even the experts differ in opinions.
> 
> here’s an interesting perspective.
> 
> peace.
> 
> mike
> 
> A Systems Biologist’s perspective on Covid-19


Thanks Mike, I read this.

I think he is uninformed on the modelling other countries have done and how they have gone about achieving success. Yes, understandably he is very US focused (way too much), but the conspiracy stuff is just embarrassing.

We already know what works, just the US is still playing catchup, sadly.

I'm for independent thought, but using it as an argument is like, well... it's the 15 year old flat earthers who do that on YouTube, right? I'm glad that you rolled that back.


----------



## Iswhatitis

Dewdman42 said:


> I don’t know what you’re talking about left or right. I am talking about truth or bs. I’m hearing a lot of hateful histerical bs. Not helpful. I’m not interested in left vs right discussions. They will go nowhere. Particularly unhelpful in the middle of the current crisis.
> 
> Previous administrations going back decades,not just Obama; did not have a good system in place to test millions. Not for Ebola and not for anything else. This is not because they were bad administrations, they just weren’t anticipating something that would spread so widely and so quickly.
> 
> the good news is that this has been corrected by the current administration and they are rolling out large numbers of tests as we speak.


This article is yet another example of how disgustingly corrupt the Trump presidency is:









Seeking masks, FEMA agrees to contract with insolvent company


FEMA appears to have awarded a masks contract "to an insolvent organization with no apparent expertise in the given field."




www.msnbc.com













FEMA paid a bankrupt company with zero employees $55 million for N95 masks, which it's never manufactured


The Trump administration has awarded a $55 million contract for N95 masks to a company with no experience producing medical supplies and whose parent company filed for bankruptcy protection last year. The Federal Emergency Management Agency told Insider that the company, Panthera, is scheduled...




www.healthleadersmedia.com


----------



## Iswhatitis

Dewdman42 said:


> not exercising it. Really? Can you elaborate on exactly how they are not exercising it? Because I'm watching the daily briefings and they are doing quite a lot. They sent an entire hospital ship to NY. They sent masks and ventilators to NY. NY, as it turns out, also already had a stash in a warehouse that they had overlooked in addition to what was recently sent to them. They are currently working on finding out of state staff to go help out in NY asap.
> 
> So... you say categorically, "they are not exercising it". Please describe the facts to back up that ridiculous assertion.
> 
> 
> 
> According to cuomo it is. I watched Trump answer a question today about that. It was explained, that stuff was sent. They have what is available for them. Cuomo is being a bit of a whiner. You can believe him or believe Trump...I think they are both full of shit, but that's your prerogative.
> 
> 
> 
> That is more fake news. If one frustrated person makes an accusation or insinuation, that is not truth, that is nothing more than accusation. When reported as news, that is fake news. That is the very definition of it.
> 
> Here is that actual truth on that situation, previous administrations had inadequate plans in place to facilitate a testing scenario of this magnitude. Also there were problems with the early tests. So yes...we were delayed. Could it have come out earlier? No way to know for sure, but what we do know is that they improved the testing system in such a way that they could handle millions of tests rolling forward in a much more reliable and efficient manner. At this point USA is doing more tests then any other country by a long shot...we are learning more every day. So Larry Hogan was frustrated about a frustrating situation, but there are absolutely no facts whatsoever to back up the notion that the current POTUS covid team somehow failed to deliver the best that was possible under the circumstances. No facts to back that up whatsoever. That is FAKE NEWS to say so.
> 
> 
> 
> I will say it again, these assertions you are making are fake, unhelpful and even dangerous.
> 
> kind regards


Here’s more real news which shows how corrupt Trump is:









White House advisers reportedly said Trump's re-election campaign is skirting FEC rules to 'secretly' pay his sons' significant others $180,000 a year


The campaign is paying the women $15,000 a month through Brad Parscale's own companies to avoid disclosing the payments to the FEC, HuffPost reported.




www.google.com





It's not just Republicans who are corrupt, too many politicians are evil and narcissistic:









Congresswoman Ilhan Omar on track to pay new husband's company over $1 million


WASHINGTON (SBG) - Congresswoman Ilhan Omar is on track to pay the political firm founded by her new husband more than $1 million by the end of the year. According to the Daily Mail, the Democrat from Minnesota has paid more than $290,000 to the E Street Group in the first three months of the...




newschannel9.com













Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez







www.washingtonexaminer.com


----------



## Kony

@Iswhatitis I got a phishing alert caused by the healthleadersmedia link you posted - even without clicking the link, Avast threw up a warning indicating it had blocked the website. Checked via Google and was advised the site is not safe.


----------



## Iswhatitis

Kony said:


> @Iswhatitis I got a phishing alert caused by the healthleadersmedia link you posted - even without clicking the link, Avast threw up a warning indicating it had blocked the website. Checked via Google and was advised the site is not safe.











Seeking masks, FEMA agrees to contract with insolvent company


FEMA appears to have awarded a masks contract "to an insolvent organization with no apparent expertise in the given field."




www.msnbc.com













Millionaires receive $1.7m in coronavirus relief as most taxpayers get $1,200 payments thanks to hidden Republican loophole


As millions of Americans woke up to $1,200 checks in their bank accounts, some of the nation’s richest taxpayers learned they were also about to receive some relief — about $1.7m each, to be exact.Nearly 43,000 millionaires across the country would soon profit off a loophole adapted from the...




news.yahoo.com


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Thundercat said:


> Hundreds of thousands deaths/year from auto accidents but we don’t stop driving. Think people. Think.


The number of car accidents doesn't double every 3-5 days. Car accidents don't keep spreading to an average of more than twice as many car accidents, which each then spread to more, and so on.

If those things were to happen, we would stop driving in order to contain the spread. We wouldn't just let the numbers grow out of control.


----------



## Ashermusic

Land of Missing Parts said:


> The number of car accidents doesn't double every 3-5 days. Car accidents don't keep spreading to an average of more than twice as many car accidents, which each then spread to more, and so on.
> 
> If those things were to happen for some reason, we would stop driving in order to contain the spread.



Exactly, sorry Thundercat don’t mean to insult you, but in my view _you_ are the one who needs to think.


----------



## Sears Poncho

Thundercat said:


> Hundreds of thousands deaths/year from auto accidents but we don’t stop driving. Think people. Think.





Thundercat said:


> I’m not a nut job



Okay..... but ya kinda sorta say things that a nut job might say. Comparing car crashes with a global pandemic = nutball 101.

7 people are dead in a nursing home that's walking distance from my place. More to come. I don't need a car to get there, I can walk. Think people. Think.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

if there is just a 1/200 chance you'd die from it, im pretty sure you wouldn't casually see if "one's in the chamber". Many places have kept the numbers quite low in terms of actual deaths, but I'm not interested in chancing it. Myself? I'd almost certainly survive. My mother who's had both lungs collapse on separate occasions? Not a chance. My dad who has both a cardiac history as well as a respiratory infection on and off for the last decade? Nope. 

So you can see pretty clearly - while I'm the first person to ask people not to freak out and do anything drastic, I'll also say that there is no responsible reason to take the chance with not just your own life, but others you might actually care about.


----------



## Sears Poncho




----------



## MartinH.

The other day I've read something in a youtube comment that made me laugh: 


"The spread of the virus depends on two factors: 

a) how dense the population is
b) how dense the population is"





Sears Poncho said:


> 7 people are dead in a nursing home that's walking distance from my place. More to come. I don't need a car to get there, I can walk. Think people. Think.



Sadly in some places even nursing home staff isn't taking this thing serious at all. The girlfriend of a friend of mine works in such a place and they explicitely told her not to wear a mask and they want her to organize group activities for their residents. She refused and expects to soon get fired. She's had problems with her boss already before the pandemic.
Some people working there (cleaners etc.) even work in several different nursing homes, so it's not unlikely they spread the virus from one place to another.

The grandma of a friend of my girlfriend died from Covid 19 too. I think I mentioned a couple pages ago that she was tested positive.


----------



## Vik

Thundercat said:


> Hundreds of thousands deaths/year from auto accidents but we don’t stop driving.


No, but we do a lot to prevent car crashes and to precent/reduce the effect of car crashes. Not only that, but even if we wouldn't do all that, that's no argument for not trying to get infected by a potentially lethal disease or prevent others from become infected by people who don't even know that they carry the virus. Additionally, the switch towards more use of buses and trains has been used as an argument for reducing traffic deaths (and several other reasons) for decades now.


----------



## NYC Composer

Michael Antrum said:


> You may also wish to consider the possibility I was not being entirely serious......


Heh.


----------



## patrick76

Sears Poncho said:


>


The level of stupidity and selfishness is absolutely sickening.


----------



## Stringtree

umm yeah, where was that?


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Stringtree said:


> umm yeah, where was that?


That picture is from a protest yesterday at the Texas capitol building in Austin.


----------



## Soundhound

I generally don't wish others ill, but this is very different. These people are not just endangering themselves, they are endangering everyone. Yes, they are being egged on by Trump and Fox, supported by the largely silent, profoundly immoral GOP. Trump will go down in history as the president who killed tens of thousands of people unnecessarily and caused either the worst recession since the great depression, or an economic calamity as bad as or even worse than great depression.

But the fact that these people were raised on right wing propaganda doesn't change the fact that they are charged with the society they live in to be responsible adults. Responsible for their own safety and to not endanger others. That's what civil society does, protect its citizens from harm.

They have to be stopped. Throw them in jail, now. If they were only endangering themselves, if the virus would only kill them and not spread to the rest of us, I would very much wish that they would all, each and every one, get the virus and go away quietly to suffer and/or die. But it doesn't work that way.







Sears Poncho said:


>


----------



## Stringtree

Soundhound said:


> But the fact that these people were raised on right wing propaganda doesn't change the fact that they are charged with the society they live in to be responsible adults. Responsible for their own safety and to not endanger others. That's what civil society does, protect its citizens from harm.




As much as sticking fellow humans who haven't been shooty or stabby or rapey into cages is oogy, the operative word is _charged_. This sticky trap may at least slow down a clearly coordinated suite of efforts designed to disrupt the good that's been done toward alleviation and conduct an ill-devised experiment with our older folks' lives. 

I love a good protest. I marched for AIDS victims and shouted my voice out, lived through a catastrophe of incredible scope. I was responsible and did what I needed to do to keep myself and my friends safe.

I want to understand. But this, now, is irresponsible and completely avoidable. Big groups yelling argot and code for crappy ideas. A suicide yesterday, someone I spent hours and hours with. I screamed at the top of my lungs, "THIS IS NOT COOL!" And nothing. Nothing in response. 

Greg


----------



## dzilizzi

NYC Composer said:


> Re David Icke
> 
> I realize is just Wiki, but still, here’s your guy who “makes a lot of sense”
> 
> His endorsement of the antisemiticforgery The Protocols of the Elders of Zion in The Robots' Rebellion and And the Truth Shall Set You Free led his publisher to refuse to publish his books, which were self-published thereafter.[15]
> 
> Icke believes that the universe is made up of "vibrational" energy and consists of an infinite number of dimensions that share the same space.[16][9][17] He advocates the existence of an inter-dimensional race of reptilian beings called the Archons (or Anunnaki) who have hijacked the earth and that a genetically modified human–Archon hybrid race of shape-shifting reptilians known as the Babylonian Brotherhood, the Illuminati, or the "elite", manipulate global events to keep humans in constant fear so the Archons can feed off the "negative energy" this creates.[16][18][19][20]


Cool! They must love these overly anxious millennials. And whatever the next generation is called that has it also. 

Me? I don't have anxiety disorder. But I'll just continue to get stressed out when I have to talk to someone on the phone. 

But really, isn't that the whole premise of 1984. Put everybody in so much fear we let the government control our movement and thoughts? I'm not really comparing COVID to that really. 

The logical part of me who got A's and B's in science understands the need to stop the spread until we can get a vaccine. The business part that listens to my scientist brother thinks there is no way the economy can survive until a vaccine is ready and we are already in trouble. None of the world's governments can support their populations for that long. I don't know the answer. 

But I sure hope those Lizard people are happy.


----------



## macmac

micrologus said:


> My mother passed away this morning. There were many elderly people who died at the retirement homes. The situation is really shocking.


I’m very sorry for your loss. May you find some peace during this difficult time.


----------



## Sears Poncho

dzilizzi said:


> But really, isn't that the whole premise of 1984. Put everybody in so much fear we let the government control our movement and thoughts?


They had 20 years of Nuclear war, which started after WWII. The fear was real at first, and out of that grew the first of the 3 super states, Oceania.

Compare that with today: A family of incompetent grifters, led by a pathological liar reality show host, used 20 years of right-wing bullshit to convince the rubes that a guy who literally shits on a gold toilet and is married to an immigrant lesbian porn dimwit whilst bribing porn stars he raw-dogged is somehow....

Nah. That 1984 story is far more believable.


----------



## dzilizzi

I was going to write something but it would end up being moved. So I won't comment.


----------



## Stringtree

That's a bad start. I hope you have somewhere to say it. Music is either cathartic or pointless now. It's like Esperanto.


----------



## dzilizzi

Stringtree said:


> That's a bad start. I hope you have somewhere to say it. Music is either cathartic or pointless now. It's like Esperanto.


Are you replying to me? It wasn't music or COVID related. I try very hard not to get into political discussions.


----------



## Stringtree

dzilizzi said:


> Are you replying to me? It wasn't music or COVID related. I try very hard not to get into political discussions.



It wasn't with malice or anything that I meant to hurt with. Sweet lady, I am just not myself right now and might come off wrong. If I said anything hurtful, I'm so sorry. I'm so frustrated and have nobody at all to talk me down from my upset condition. This is what it's doing to me. Why would I ever take a hammer of insensitivity and smash what I've curated so carefully? 

I try very hard too. I often am failing lately. What I meant to say was that I hope you have an outlet for the things that you need to say but cannot here because of various reasons. There's nothing behind what I wrote at all. I think I was crying out Ouch because I'm needing that and imposed that on you through some quick post I made. 

Please never suppose I was suggesting your words were a cheap fight for me. You're absolutely one of my favorites, and I'm just not myself right now. You're real and I treasure you. 

I'm sorry. It would be a very sad thing to lose your affinity now, or live with the suspicion that I did it through my dumb words. Sliding into political garbage was my fault, and I apologize. Things continue to deteriorate and I'm not very good at this. Hour to hour, things are changing, and what I meant was that music is something I have a knack for but may become less important. It was the language of loss.

Greg


----------



## Sears Poncho

dzilizzi said:


> I try very hard not to get into political discussions.


I appreciate and respect that... but IMO "politics" are now over, it's a matter of survival. That sounds stupid and way too melodramatic.... except I have 8 dead people down the street and some health issues that could make me join them. And I have a 17 year old niece with very severe health issues, in a county that has 45 deaths. She'd be a goner in 5 minutes. My brother has the poor kid under lock and key.

Let's make no mistake: President Shitbag encouraged a bunch of jackasses to literally put their fellow Americans in severe harm, and some will die from it. Guaranteed. Sorry, but this isn't politics any more. I live in Ohio, my niece now has to not only protect herself from a virus, she/we have to protect her from these cretins. This ain't politics...


----------



## NYC Composer

macmac said:


> I’m very sorry for your loss. May you find some peace during this difficult time.





dzilizzi said:


> Cool! They must love these overly anxious millennials. And whatever the next generation is called that has it also.
> 
> Me? I don't have anxiety disorder. But I'll just continue to get stressed out when I have to talk to someone on the phone.
> 
> But really, isn't that the whole premise of 1984. Put everybody in so much fear we let the government control our movement and thoughts? I'm not really comparing COVID to that really.
> 
> The logical part of me who got A's and B's in science understands the need to stop the spread until we can get a vaccine. The business part that listens to my scientist brother thinks there is no way the economy can survive until a vaccine is ready and we are already in trouble. None of the world's governments can support their populations for that long. I don't know the answer.
> 
> But I sure hope those Lizard people are happy.


I’m a little confused, Lizzi-are you sorta thinking that 12 foot tall alien lizards may be controlling us all?


----------



## NYC Composer

Sorry to all who have lost someone. I’ve lost my stepfather, my mother’s husband of 52 years. He was 87, but he wasn’t ill.

I think it will end up to be the rare and lucky person who doesn’t know someone who has lost someone to COVID.


----------



## Stringtree

As I age like a fine wine, I am losing my reservations about calling a piece of trash what it is. I am a citizen, a participant, a maker, a lover, a friend, a bright star in a field of dimness.

Diffidence is lame. Oh, man, how this has changed me. I'm not the [email protected] that got beat up anymore. You have no idea who you're dealing with, and neither do I. It's happening Now.

We've lost our orchestras, our libraries, our social nets that aren't some fake-ass online garbage. We've forsaken our hugs and kisses for empty "Stay Safe!" wishes. Thoughts and prayers. 

No, I'm angry, and this is NOT COOL. There are identifiable parties that screwed us. 

I care about the people who gave us a lift to see the sun in the morning, lifted on their shoulders. Friends I'll never ever forget. I could carry some dirt on my breath or on my shoes that could kill them. 

Remeber Civics? This is that. Dirty asshats who spin this into "politics" do not know what that word really means. Evil, where it festers, should be stamped out. Turn on the lights, people.

Greg


----------



## Maxtrixbass

NYC Composer said:


> Sorry to all who have lost someone. I’ve lost my stepfather, my mother’s husband of 52 years. He was 87, but he wasn’t ill.
> 
> I think it will end up to be the rare and lucky person who doesn’t know someone who has lost someone to COVID.



Sorry for your loss. I have lost two.


----------



## NYC Composer

Maxtrixbass said:


> Sorry for your loss. I have lost two.


Sorry for yours as well. Too many tragic events these days, not enough common sense, not enough science, not enough temperate leadership.


----------



## dzilizzi

Stringtree said:


> It wasn't with malice or anything that I meant to hurt with. Sweet lady, I am just not myself right now and might come off wrong. If I said anything hurtful, I'm so sorry. I'm so frustrated and have nobody at all to talk me down from my upset condition. This is what it's doing to me. Why would I ever take a hammer of insensitivity and smash what I've curated so carefully?
> 
> I try very hard too. I often am failing lately. What I meant to say was that I hope you have an outlet for the things that you need to say but cannot here because of various reasons. There's nothing behind what I wrote at all. I think I was crying out Ouch because I'm needing that and imposed that on you through some quick post I made.
> 
> Please never suppose I was suggesting your words were a cheap fight for me. You're absolutely one of my favorites, and I'm just not myself right now. You're real and I treasure you.
> 
> I'm sorry. It would be a very sad thing to lose your affinity now, or live with the suspicion that I did it through my dumb words. Sliding into political garbage was my fault, and I apologize. Things continue to deteriorate and I'm not very good at this. Hour to hour, things are changing, and what I meant was that music is something I have a knack for but may become less important. It was the language of loss.
> 
> Greg


Oh, sorry, I didn't really take offense. I was just explaining that I was going to say something really off topically political because my political thoughts tend to not agree with most of the political thoughts around here. And then the moderator moves it to the COVID political thread that I now have on ignore. I probably just shouldn't post at all here. 

I have people to talk with. And generally I don't really care about politics, other than I tend to think every one of them is a power-hungry, lying piece of bad word who would sell out his or her mother if it would get them elected. And I am going to stop there.


----------



## Ashermusic

dzilizzi said:


> Oh, sorry, I didn't really take offense. I was just explaining that I was going to say something really off topically political because my political thoughts tend to not agree with most of the political thoughts around here. And then the moderator moves it to the COVID political thread that I now have on ignore. I probably just shouldn't post at all here.
> 
> I have people to talk with. And generally I don't really care about politics, other than I tend to think every one of them is a power-hungry, lying piece of bad word who would sell out his or her mother if it would get them elected. And I am going to stop there.



in all endeavors when humans participate, perfect is the enemy of good. Politics is no exception. There are better motivated and there are more venal politicians , and the differences are not small.


----------



## dzilizzi

Sears Poncho said:


> I appreciate and respect that... but IMO "politics" are now over, it's a matter of survival. That sounds stupid and way too melodramatic.... except I have 8 dead people down the street and some health issues that could make me join them. And I have a 17 year old niece with very severe health issues, in a county that has 45 deaths. She'd be a goner in 5 minutes. My brother has the poor kid under lock and key.
> 
> Let's make no mistake: President Shitbag encouraged a bunch of jackasses to literally put their fellow Americans in severe harm, and some will die from it. Guaranteed. Sorry, but this isn't politics any more. I live in Ohio, my niece now has to not only protect herself from a virus, she/we have to protect her from these cretins. This ain't politics...


But did he? I can't believe all the idiots protesting in LA support Trump. 

I do believe idiots in Texas do. 

I am very sorry for your situation. I get why people are upset. They were told 2 weeks and couldn't even stay home for just the two weeks. Now they are being told until the end of April at the earliest. OMG! Is the government trying to kill them? They can't go out and socialize for a WHOLE MONTH!!!! Sorry. Sarcasm there. Some of my neighbors aren't socially isolating very well. The neighbors to my right and left are. The ones across the street aren't. And? They do run a (probably unlicensed) daycare. The parents may be essential workers. 

And I am really sorry for everyone who has lost someone. I am fortunate that my 90 year old dad with memory issues and other health problems is in a senior residence home that has been smart and immediately limited the contact. My dad understands it when we explain it to him every time, but still is wondering why my sister isn't visiting more. We are doing weekly Zoom family chats mostly for him.


----------



## JEPA

Soundhound said:


> I generally don't wish others ill, but this is very different. These people are not just endangering themselves, they are endangering everyone. Yes, they are being egged on by Trump and Fox, supported by the largely silent, profoundly immoral GOP. Trump will go down in history as the president who killed tens of thousands of people unnecessarily and caused either the worst recession since the great depression, or an economic calamity as bad as or even worse than great depression.
> 
> But the fact that these people were raised on right wing propaganda doesn't change the fact that they are charged with the society they live in to be responsible adults. Responsible for their own safety and to not endanger others. That's what civil society does, protect its citizens from harm.
> 
> They have to be stopped. Throw them in jail, now. If they were only endangering themselves, if the virus would only kill them and not spread to the rest of us, I would very much wish that they would all, each and every one, get the virus and go away quietly to suffer and/or die. But it doesn't work that way.


for something like that right now in Germany these guys were in jail... here it's prohibited to join more than 2, and they have to belong to your household or family.


----------



## dzilizzi

NYC Composer said:


> I’m a little confused, Lizzi-are you sorta thinking that 12 foot tall alien lizards may be controlling us all?


No, I'm mostly being sarcastic. And kind of rude about all the kids who have anxiety disorders and get drugs because when I was a kid, I was told it was stress and to just get over it. 

But you never know. My husband has been watching all these How the Universe was created on Science channel. Some of the things they say kind of makes you wonder. Maybe our universe is inside a small ball hanging on the collar of a cat named Orion. (Men in Black reference)


----------



## Sears Poncho

dzilizzi said:


> But did he?


YES. YES HE DID. And then a bunch of morons go on tv, EVERY DAY, and explain that "the librul lamestream media derp derp". Yes, he did this. The cretin that mocked the handicapped guy, he did this. The guy that calls women "horse face" and "dogs" did this. The guy that said "This is their new hoax", same guy. The guy that bragged about having better ratings than "The Bachelor" when thousands were dying? Yup, that's him. 

Why do we have to pretend?? It makes no sense. Gaetz wore a gas mask to Congress to mock this situation, I saw it. After an uproar he said "The LIBRUL DERP" blah blah. He did it. He learned from the Cheeto. Do something, then lie about it and blame somebody. But yeah, Mr. "I don't take any responsibility" did it. This is what he does. And then Kellyanne of Green Goebbels goes on the tube and says he didn't "because libruls". And then a bunch of smelly fucking rednecks who can't apparently buy a stick of deodorant spread diseases nine ways to Sunday, and all of a sudden it's called "freedom of speech" and "an alternate view", half of them believing this is a "hoax" thanks to Fox news and the Dotard. He did this.


----------



## dzilizzi

Sears Poncho said:


> YES. YES HE DID. And then a bunch of morons go on tv, EVERY DAY, and explain that "the librul lamestream media derp derp". Yes, he did this. The cretin that mocked the handicapped guy, he did this. The guy that calls women "horse face" and "dogs" did this. The guy that said "This is their new hoax", same guy. The guy that bragged about having better ratings than "The Bachelor" when thousands were dying? Yup, that's him.
> 
> Why do we have to pretend?? It makes no sense. Gaetz wore a gas mask to Congress to mock this situation, I saw it. After an uproar he said "The LIBRUL DERP" blah blah. He did it. He learned from the Cheeto. Do something, then lie about it and blame somebody. But yeah, Mr. "I don't take any responsibility" did it. This is what he does. And then Kellyanne of Green Goebbels goes on the tube and says he didn't "because libruls". And then a bunch of smelly fucking rednecks who can't apparently buy a stick of deodorant spread diseases nine ways to Sunday, and all of a sudden it's called "freedom of speech" and "an alternate view", half of them believing this is a "hoax" thanks to Fox news and the Dotard. He did this.


You know. I tend to forget how stupid some of the country is becoming with all the homeschooling by people that never graduated high school. You know, like how the earth is flat and only about 4000 years old. But it is okay because we have the legal right to carry guns. (Actually, I don't disagree with this right, but maybe they should have to take an IQ test first?) 

I don't mind Trump so much because I know he is an idiot. And he knows he is not the smartest tool in the shed. He's said it multiple times. So I don't really listen to what he says. The ones that scare me are the ones who are smart or who don't know they aren't smart and spout off all sorts of nonsense that sounds believable. However, I am sorry that people actually listened and didn't maybe think "Do you think he was serious that we should do this?" And "Maybe we should wear masks?"

And really? If it didn't adversely effect all the older people and those who have no control over their health status or are essential workers, I wouldn't have a problem with them all getting it. Be stupid. Meet in a big group and yell a bunch, spewing out your germs everywhere. Unfortunately, with COVID, it seems survival of the fittest is not necessarily the smartest. It will end up like that movie Idiocracy. 

Stay in. Play video games. Make music. Watch TV. Or read a book. Go to Coursera and learn something new for free from actual teachers.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

dzilizzi said:


> But did he? I can't believe all the idiots protesting in LA support Trump.



He sure did. He’s even in the media stating that the protesters have every right to protest. I can’t believe this guy is still walking.


----------



## Maxtrixbass

Sometimes its good to stand back and realize the circumstances, setting aside for a moment if the policy reactions are reasonable in those circumstances.

A. Placing a large part of a country and even the world in a limited "house arrest" would make an ACLU member's head spin.

B. The "social safety net" in the U.S. is pretty poor really. As an all too common contractor/gig worker in this country I wasn't even eligible for unemployment. That's a pretty big portion of the country. Church workers generally aren't either. After the CARES Act I may now have coverage, but many people went for a month with no income and no sense help was coming. I couldn't imagine India or Nigeria.

C. People are out of work because of a widespread disease, but many people's health insurance is tied to that work.. or their income to buy coverage had dried up. You are unemployed hoping to not get sick because your insurance is gone.. and your insurance is gone because of a contagious disease that is making lots of people sick.

D. There is a high percentage of people, even here in the US, who have little to no savings, live paycheck to paycheck, and have lost that paycheck for almost two months now. Unemployment insurance has been expanded, but the system is so jammed few people have yet received any money.

E. The situation is open ended. That creates a whole 'nother level of anxiety.

F. Most people to date haven't experienced the virus personally and most those who either had the virus ,or know someone who has, recovered. The limited social interaction tends to make most people's world either distant (internet) or kind of small. Its hard to experience "imminent danger" concern right now unless you work in the medical field.


Do I think the response is justified? Yes, but I have had closer contact with the disease. The choir that practices down the hall from my orchestra had literally one rehearsal beyond us. Sixty people showed up, 40 became infected, 7 were hospitalized, and two have died.

I think it healthy to debate if a virtual suspension of civil liberties is justified. It is the way despots seize control: create or capitalize on a disaster to justify suppression of the masses. Its also very understandable that people would be stressed as their economic situation become dire and call for a lifting of the sanctions.

You can't buy a pack of gum in this country without entering into some liberal/conservative democrat/republican squabble. If we can't untangle that for a moment and realize the debates over what is to be done are actually rooted in very reasonable concerns, then we are likely to badly bumble our way through this.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

dzilizzi said:


> I wouldn't have a problem with them all getting it. Be stupid. Meet in a big group and yell a bunch, spewing out your germs everywhere.


One of the things people underestimate is how much everything is connected to everything else.

No, I _don't_ want the reckless protesters to get sick. And it's not just because I'm a bleeding heart and all, but because it's naive to think the damage is just limited to them. When people get sick, there are a number of cascading consequences, and it can hurt all sorts of other people.

Spread begets more spread, more stress on the system, more problems for all of us. It's a collective action problem. We're living the prisoner's dilemma. Are we willing to coordinate?


----------



## Stringtree

No I do not have a gun. But brother or sister, if you come to my house with any trace of bad intent I have an array of nerdy kitchen tools that will disarticulate you in the most efficient and gruesome ways possible. I learned my knife skills from Julia Child, Jacques Pepin, Gordon Ramsay, and Henri-Paul Pellaprat. Well, mostly from YouTube videos and my big phat book from the CIA. (Culinary Institute of America). Wouldn't want to impugn a mostly benevolent organization.

Think sliced onions will make you cry? Just come around here and I will dice you like lightning. You may have a choice of braising, roasting, or broiling, but things are going to get hot.

I'm certainly not going to eat this. It's not a Peter Greenaway movie.

Edit: (Not yet?)

Greg


----------



## MartinH.

A couple pages ago I mentioned that the roommate of the daughter of a friend was tested positive for covid19. She has recovered and is back to work. Interestingly his daughter seems to not have been infected at all, even though they were quarantined together for such a long time.




Maxtrixbass said:


> Do I think the response is justified? Yes, but I have had closer contact with the disease. The choir that practices down the hall from my orchestra had literally one rehearsal beyond us. Sixty people showed up, 40 became infected, 7 were hospitalized, and two have died.



That's terrifying!


Seeing these extremes between how contagious it is makes me wonder what factors lead to such different outcomes.


----------



## dzilizzi

MartinH. said:


> Seeing these extremes between how contagious it is makes me wonder what factors lead to such different outcomes.


One of the first groups hit, other than the original nursing home, was a choir up in Washington state. They figured that the blast of air required to sing makes it more likely everyone will pick it up from an infected person. And then pass it on. Many of their members were over 60 and not so healthy. That is why I commented on the protesters being idiots. One person with it and they all take it home to their families. 

My husband had to go into work last week. He is under 60, but has pretty much all the other risk factors. Now he's finding out that 2 of the guys who came in are sick. One has been tested and was negative. They haven't tested the other yet.


----------



## Maxtrixbass

dzilizzi said:


> One of the first groups hit, other than the original nursing home, was a choir up in Washington state. They figured that the blast of air required to sing makes it more likely everyone will pick it up from an infected person. And then pass it on. Many of their members were over 60 and not so healthy. ...



Yep, that was the choir "down the hall" I mentioned. I wasn't in the building that night, but do know many of the people in that group. It was before "safe distancing", but only half the choir showed up, they weren't that close, there was hand sanitizer going in, and no physical contact. There were no symptoms, but someone must have walked in with it and 2/3rds walked out.

A more senior crowd? Generally. Not so healthy..dunno, most seemed in pretty good shape...average Joe's kind of thing.

As I mentioned I do understand those who question civil liberties and economic destruction. These are very reasonable concerns. I guess the "shutting down" response to me makes sense by what happened in 2 hours with that choir. The "in isolation" deaths that resulted were also especially sad..rather a lonely way to go, and was also tough on those left behind.


----------



## Sears Poncho

What.. wait a sec...... why, GOLLY GEE WILLIKERS!! They don't like the Jew boys! Awww, what a complete and total 100% surprise, GOLLY GEE! Silly me, I never would have expected that!!! I thought it was a protest about somethin' or other. Turns out, it's just a bunch of bigoted assholes using any ol excuse to get their klan sheets on, get them thar Chewin' tobaccy, get them thar nooses ready, get their sheets nice and white. GOLLY GEE! https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/anti-semitic-sign-seen-during-stay-at-home-protests-at-ohio-statehouse-elected-officials-react/ar-BB12VNpt?ocid=msedgntp


----------



## Sears Poncho

Now this here feller, he's a member of the Kiwanis and the Rotary club. He won "outstanding small business owner of Columbus" 3 years straight! He wants to open up his small business, selling meth to school kids. God bless, Patriot!


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Sears Poncho said:


> Now this here feller, he's a member of the Kiwanis and the Rotary club. He won "outstanding small business owner of Columbus" 3 years straight! He wants to open up his small business, selling meth to school kids. God bless, Patriot!



Wow, just wow. And I bet dollars to doughnuts he doesn’t have any private heathcare. I just don’t understand the outright stupidity that’s going on there.


----------



## Sears Poncho

Wolfie2112 said:


> Wow, just wow. And I bet dollars to doughnuts he doesn’t have any private heathcare. I just don’t understand the outright stupidity that’s going on there.


It truly is sad, as much as it is exasperating.


----------



## patrick76

Wolfie2112 said:


> Wow, just wow. And I bet dollars to doughnuts he doesn’t have any private heathcare. I just don’t understand the outright stupidity that’s going on there.


These rallies appear to serve as gathering spots for all kinds of nonsense (to put it politely). I saw pictures from one of the rallies (don't remember from which state) with several people carrying signs against vaccinations.


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## dzilizzi

Maxtrixbass said:


> A more senior crowd? Generally. Not so healthy..dunno, most seemed in pretty good shape...average Joe's kind of thing.


Sorry, the article I read seemed to indicate a good number of those who showed up were over 60 and the ones they talked with were mentioning some were in there 70's. Could be the younger members didn't come to the rehearsal? 

I'm sorry about the losses though. It's sad you can't sing when people are sick. It's one of the things that makes me happy.


----------



## Soundhound

The right wing has been trying to disassemble the government for decades. The current disaster is Grover Norquist's wet dream. Trump's infinite incompetence makes Norquist's argument to these people, daily. They are Fox News watchers and so, like Trump, believe that gvmt is a waste and evil.

The fact that tens of thousands of people will die because the federal government failed to act will be lost on the people at these rallies. All they hear is Fox News and Trump shouting that their 'freedoms' are being taken away. It's utterly insane of course, the states that are trying to be responsible about the virus are the only thing that stands between us and hundreds of thousands of people dying in the U.S.

This was Bernie Sanders' moment, it's never been easier to see that our health care system is corrupt and barbaric and that the inequality in our economy is a recipe for inevitable disaster. But the DNC wanted nothing to do with him, they have too much money in the current system. This is a dangerous moment. If Biden doesn't choose a genuine progressive as his running mate, it will dampen his vote count and could easily lead to Trump getting reelected. Not as many will abandon voting for him as did with Clinton in 2016, Trump was a terrifying idea then, he's a terrifying reality now. I'll vote for Biden no matter what, but the blue wave in 2018 was created by progressives getting the vote out. If they feel totally abandoned by the Democrats, many will still participate but it'll be nothing like 2018, and Trump could win.

Biden has got to pick a real progressive, or the democratic party will be in the shitter for a long time. I don't know what Trump could do that's worse than killing tens of thousands of people and sending the country into a deep recession or even depression. But I sure as f*ck don't want to find out.


----------



## Mike Greene

This is getting pretty political here, so for those who want to continue in that direction (which is obviously understandable), please do so in the appropriate sub-forum. Thanks.


----------



## Soundhound

Whoops! Thought it was in that section. Sorry!


----------



## Mike Greene

No worries.


----------



## Maxtrixbass

dzilizzi said:


> Sorry, the article I read seemed to indicate a good number of those who showed up were over 60 and the ones they talked with were mentioning some were in there 70's. Could be the younger members didn't come to the rehearsal?
> 
> I'm sorry about the losses though. It's sad you can't sing when people are sick. It's one of the things that makes me happy.




You are right. The vast majority would be called the senior set. I just wanted to emphasize that it isn't just "old and sickly" that are being impacted and, in this case, rather dramatically so. Some of the problem is that many people I come across say "well, if I get it, no big deal because I'm young/healthy". Could be true, I'm no expert, but these people seemed relatively healthy to me if not generally especially young. Its just hard to really determine who it will hit hard.

I know of one person who got dropped off at the hospital and that was the last time any family member saw them. They went into quarantine and died alone a week later....and I don't want to be graphic, but it isn't a type of dying I would want. This does sadly happen in normal circumstances, but sometimes the numbers just don't convey the story we are living. There are thousands of people dying this way every day just in this country. What each of them is going through is a tragedy well beyond the sheer body count.

Almost 40 million people have died of AIDs. That's a pandemic of horrible numbers. My brother died of AIDs..Its not a death I would wish on my worst enemy. There is more to the story than just a fatality. I have a friend who has dealt with being HIV positive for decades now. Not a fatality, but not an easy life. That's not quite like what we are dealing with now, but pandemics are more than just statistics.

So yes, you were right and I'm certainly not aiming my response at you, but there is a story here beyond the numbers we all need to consider...and yes, if you are young and healthy your odds are pretty good, but remember too that it COULD be any of us.

So to tie this into the original question: How is your life impacted by the virus? First it was money, then it was concern. Now its sadness.


----------



## dzilizzi

Problem with the young and healthy getting it is they may not be as healthy as they thought. And they pass it on to the not so healthy, whether young or not. 

From what I'm understanding the big issue is that normal flu shows up within days of catching it. This takes up to 2 weeks to show symptoms. So all those protesters now have to quarantine for another 2 weeks. Which they won't.


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## Sears Poncho

Maxtrixbass said:


> Some of the problem is that many people I come across say "well, if I get it, no big deal because I'm young/healthy".


Their "quality" of life may be affected far more than they could imagine, from not having parents/grandparents/uncles to all the financial problems. And we have an unknown situation with mutations etc, this virus could be the new normal for a generation.

I do feel for them. It's hard to tell a 23 year old "that house you were going to buy in 2035? You won't, because you didn't take this seriously and a lot more was at stake than getting sick". And that's gotta be a tough sell to a younger person. But it's the truth and the new reality. That middle class life that some are destined for could be easily replaced by a life far worse than our "current" lifestyle.


----------



## Kony

I don't understand, instead of enduring the fallout for years to come, why we don't have a coordinated global lockdown for 4 weeks to try to eradicate this? Countries which are unsuccessful (eg third world) can be helped later on with assisted coordinated international efforts. What's the alternative, to have this thing circulating forever, potentially mutating and killing a large majority of the global population while continuing to damage economies for months/years to come?


----------



## patrick76

Kony said:


> I don't understand, instead of enduring the fallout for years to come, why we don't have a coordinated global lockdown for 4 weeks to try to eradicate this? Countries which are unsuccessful (eg third world) can be helped later on with assisted coordinated international efforts. What's the alternative, to have this thing circulating forever, potentially mutating and killing a large majority of the global population while continuing to damage economies for months/years to come?


freedumb


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## Kony

patrick76 said:


> freedumb


As stupid as these people are, I think even they might get on board a one-off 4 week lockdown if they thought that would be it and we could get back to normal afterwards - as opposed to ongoing sporadic lockdowns for months/years to deal with second/third/fourth waves.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Kony said:


> why we don't have a coordinated global lockdown for 4 weeks to try to eradicate this?


Let's do it! All we have to do is tell people to stay home and wash their hands and...hey wait a minute.


----------



## Kony

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Let's do it! All we have to do is tell people to stay home and wash their hands and...hey wait a minute.


It's working in Australia and New Zealand where people are actually staying at home and the numbers are coming down - here's Australia's numbers (11 new cases over the last 24 hours)


----------



## Stringtree

The mark of the beast? What kind of insipid shit is this?

My gourd, those are human beings ambling behind that bedsheet.


----------



## SoNowWhat?

Kony said:


> It's working in Australia and New Zealand where people are actually staying at home and the numbers are coming down - here's Australia's numbers (11 new cases over the last 24 hours)


Australian here. Yes, it is working. We have been seeing reducing numbers of new cases, active cases and deaths. Testing has been decent (could be better, but can't really complain) and so I am fairly confident that our numbers are close to accurate. Have people and businesses been impacted? Yes, some quite badly. But we have implemented some decent safety-nets and generally seem to be acting in the interests of society/community at this time. Not everyone, but most. It's also not true to say you can't go out (but perhaps you meant that as a figure of speech). We can go out to work (if work from home is not an option and your employer is still trading), shop for food, exercise. For example, Mrs SoNowWhat? is at work today. Of course that means I am the class teacher for the day too, sorry kids. There are fines for not doing the right thing though and interstate travel has been shut down, apart from essential things like transport of goods.

The current situation here is that in mid May we might see some easing of restrictions. By that time if current trends continue I'd expect the country to have something approaching zero cases (I stress, if current trends continue). Some states have very low levels of infection and they will probably be the first to see the easing and we will all be watching closely to see what happens. 

As for a global 4 week shutdown, that might work but I just don't know if it would be long enough unfortunately. And global eradication is probably going to be extremely difficult to achieve. Not impossible I guess but very difficult. This virus will almost certainly have reservoirs in other species so even if we have no human infections it would just be a matter of time before it jumped the species barrier again (with or without Wuhan Wet Markets). More likely than not this will become an endemic virus that crops up annually or semi-annually like other cold causing coronaviruses or influenza. Just have to hope that some sort of effective vaccine is developed or even an antiviral therapy to treat those affected. Eventually the population will develop a level of immunity to it. If it becomes a regular mutating virus like influenza then that immunity could be fragile. For context and full disclosure I'm not a virologist or even an epidemiologist but my first Uni degree involved my studying both of those things and also understanding herd health, medicine and immunity. I no longer work in that area though (haven't since 2006) and am happy to be corrected if my understanding is faulty or if I mis-stated anything.

In the meantime I hope that everyone on VI-C can stay well and that we all eventually get through this.


----------



## Kony

SoNowWhat? said:


> It's also not true to say you can't go out (but perhaps you meant that as a figure of speech). We can go out to work (if work from home is not an option and your employer is still trading), shop for food, exercise ... There are fines for not doing the right thing though and interstate travel has been shut down, apart from essential things like transport of goods.



Not sure which state/territory you're in but you're only allowed out for food, meds, brief local exercise, and that's it - and there are heavy fines for not following these instructions. Workers are allowed for essential services and most businesses have closed. With schools re-opening recently in some states, approximately 97% kept their kids at home for home-schooling instead. So no, I didn't mean it as a figure of speech - I actually mean that people in Oz are taking this very seriously and mostly staying home.



SoNowWhat? said:


> Just have to hope that some sort of effective vaccine is developed


A vaccine is probably never going to happen according to Professor Ian Frazer, the scientist involved in creating a vaccine for human papilloma virus which causes cervical cancer - apparently we've never successfully created a coronavirus vaccine before. Our best hope is to either completely eradicate it with a planned coordinated global lockdown - or better treatments/meds. Here's the ABC article outlining why creating a coronavirus is so difficult.


*








If we find a vaccine for COVID-19, it will be the first time ever for coronaviruses


For those pinning their hopes on a COVID-19 vaccine to return life to normal, an Australian expert in vaccine development warns the quest poses unique challenges.




www.abc.net.au




*


----------



## markleake

Kony said:


> but you're only allowed out for food, meds, brief local exercise, and that's it


*slight correction. It's any work, not just essential work. And that's most states, including NSW and Victoria.

The restrictions are pretty reasonable, apart from a few strange things people got fined for.

The good thing is there are substantial fines. That has caused everyone to take it seriously.

I think I read something yesterday that said we had like a 98% compliance rate, way beyond what the government modelled, and far higher than other countries. Hence why we've almost eradicated it completely.

I do feel for people in other countries where the governments haven't been so good at achieving this.

So far so good here in Oz. Makes me proud that we and NZ are pretty much the only countries in the world who have managed this.


----------



## Kony

markleake said:


> *slight correction. It's any work, not just essential work. And that's most states, including NSW and Victoria.


My understanding is it's essential work only as per this article. If you have any evidence of companies still operating in their offices with staff not practicing physical distancing, I'd love to see it.









Australia coronavirus shutdown: what is open, closed and banned under the current rules?


These are the latest restrictions in place as part of the Australian government’s emergency response to the Covid-19 outbreak




www.theguardian.com


----------



## SoNowWhat?

Kony said:


> Not sure which state/territory you're in but you're only allowed out for food, meds, brief local exercise, and that's it - and there are heavy fines for not following these instructions. Workers are allowed for essential services and most businesses have closed. With schools re-opening recently in some states, approximately 97% kept their kids at home for home-schooling instead. So no, I didn't mean it as a figure of speech - I actually mean that people in Oz are taking this very seriously and mostly staying home.
> 
> 
> A vaccine is probably never going to happen according to Professor Ian Frazer, the scientist involved in creating a vaccine for human papilloma virus which causes cervical cancer - apparently we've never successfully created a coronavirus vaccine before. Our best hope is to either completely eradicate it with a planned coordinated global lockdown - or better treatments/meds. Here's the ABC article outlining why creating a coronavirus is so difficult.
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If we find a vaccine for COVID-19, it will be the first time ever for coronaviruses
> 
> 
> For those pinning their hopes on a COVID-19 vaccine to return life to normal, an Australian expert in vaccine development warns the quest poses unique challenges.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.abc.net.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


I’m in QLD and yes, I completely agree we may never develop an effective vaccine. Hence why I also included antiviral therapy in that list as a way to manage any outbreaks. That could take a long time too though. Consider how long it’s taken to develop an effective antiviral treatment for HIV. Decades? unless we get lucky.


----------



## Kony

@SoNowWhat? Ended up listening to some Divinyls after seeing your avatar - it's 7 years this month since Chrissy passed. Sorry to go OT


----------



## SoNowWhat?

Kony said:


> My understanding is it's essential work only as per this article. If you have any evidence of companies still operating in their offices with staff not practicing physical distancing, I'd love to see it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Australia coronavirus shutdown: what is open, closed and banned under the current rules?
> 
> 
> These are the latest restrictions in place as part of the Australian government’s emergency response to the Covid-19 outbreak
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


Every workplace that is open must practice social distancing. Scotty from marketing said essential workers are those with a job to go to. My wife works in a toy shop, her friend works in an insurance office. Both are still working at their regular places of work.
One of our favourite restaurants has changed to take away options but they will still need workers to get everything done. A couple of other local shops I know of remain open for online orders and pick ups but you can’t go in. The entry is taped off and they will bring your order to the front door.
All workplaces have had to a adapt their standard practices to limit people numbers and keep workers and patrons safe.


----------



## SoNowWhat?

Kony said:


> @SoNowWhat? Ended up listening to some Divinyls after seeing your avatar - it's 7 years this month since Chrissy passed. Sorry to go OT


You can go OT about Chrissy all day as far as I’m concerned. She’s amazing.


----------



## Kony

SoNowWhat? said:


> Scotty from marketing said essential workers are those with a job to go to. My wife works in a toy shop, her friend works in an insurance office. Both are still working at their regular places of work.


Isn't it up to the states though? Most peeps I've spoken with on the phone are saying whether they can work or not based on whether it's deemed an essential service - with the exception of takeaways. It's moot anyway - as we know, most of the Oz population is in lockdown whether enforced or voluntarily which is why the numbers have come down so quickly. Going back to the earlier point, a proper global lockdown might be the quickest way out of this.


----------



## markleake

Kony said:


> My understanding is it's essential work only as per this article. If you have any evidence of companies still operating in their offices with staff not practicing physical distancing, I'd love to see it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Australia coronavirus shutdown: what is open, closed and banned under the current rules?
> 
> 
> These are the latest restrictions in place as part of the Australian government’s emergency response to the Covid-19 outbreak
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


Head of marketing told us that all jobs were essential, remember? No states have limited who can go to work, they just closed locations that have a social interaction component. Not even general retail is closed, they are mostly closed voluntarily because people aren't shopping due to following the advice. Well, except for trips to Bunnings so we can do some gardening.


----------



## Kony

markleake said:


> Head of marketing told us that all jobs were essential, remember? No states have limited who can go to work, they just closed locations that have a social interaction component. Not even general retail is closed, they are mostly closed voluntarily because people aren't shopping due to following the advice. Well, except for trips to Bunnings so we can do some gardening.


I hear you but if retail outlets aren't considered essential shopping, so how/why would they stay open? It's still a lockdown on businesses if people are only allowed out for essential reasons. Scotty From Marketing said that ages ago btw and since then has said that "states and territories could decide whether these new measures would remain heavily advised or legally enforced". 









Advice or enforcement? Fines or jail? How different states are implementing coronavirus restrictions


At the extreme end of the spectrum, people in New South Wales can be jailed for not adhering to social-distancing guidelines, but across the border it's a different story. Here's what each state and territory is doing to ensure people follow measures designed to slow the spread of coronavirus.




www.abc.net.au


----------



## markleake

Kony said:


> I hear you but if retail outlets aren't considered essential shopping, so how/why would they stay open? It's still a lockdown on businesses if people are only allowed out for essential reasons. Scotty From Marketing said that ages ago btw and since then has said that "states and territories could decide whether these new measures would remain heavily advised or legally enforced".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Advice or enforcement? Fines or jail? How different states are implementing coronavirus restrictions
> 
> 
> At the extreme end of the spectrum, people in New South Wales can be jailed for not adhering to social-distancing guidelines, but across the border it's a different story. Here's what each state and territory is doing to ensure people follow measures designed to slow the spread of coronavirus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.abc.net.au


Yep, hence why lots of retail stores are closed.

Still, here in Victoria you can (and we do) go to any job you have, whatever it is. We're still following Scotty's advice on this and it isn't very restrictive.

So I catch the train in to work still, and I'm hardly an essential worker, and it's not breaking any rules. I usually can't do what I do from home. Where I'm located we are still all working away, both contractors like me, and my client. We're not doing anything special. We work from home when we can, and follow the rules on spreading out inside the office (the 1 person per 4m square rule), etc. Life's a bit different, and social distancing can be awkward at work, but we can still go to work.

I think this is a bit different, as best I understand, from many of the US states, where they have more complete lock downs. Australia seems a bit more relaxed because we all seem to be following the rules fairly well, we have much better testing and proper contact tracing, and started when the scientists told us to.

Also, as an example for retail, the music and gear shops are still open and doing business here in Melbourne. No one stops you going there. The cops aren't gonna stop you. You're not gonna get fined for going to buy a new thing you need/want.

I went out and bought a new lawn mower the other day even. I had to dodge the guy in the surgical mask (why is it always the people with the face masks who don't social distance?) but otherwise was completely safe.


----------



## SoNowWhat?

markleake said:


> Yep, hence why lots of retail stores are closed.
> 
> Still, here in Victoria you can (and we do) go to any job you have, whatever it is. We're still following Scotty's advice on this and it isn't very restrictive.
> 
> So I catch the train in to work still, and I'm hardly an essential worker, and it's not breaking any rules. I usually can't do what I do from home. Where I'm located we are still all working away, both contractors like me, and my client. We're not doing anything special. We work from home when we can, and follow the rules on spreading out inside the office (the 1 person per 4m square rule), etc. Life's a bit different, and social distancing can be awkward at work, but we can still go to work.
> 
> I think this is a bit different, as best I understand, from many of the US states, where they have more complete lock downs. Australia seems a bit more relaxed because we all seem to be following the rules fairly well, we have much better testing and proper contact tracing, and started when the scientists told us to.
> 
> Also, as an example for retail, the music and gear shops are still open and doing business here in Melbourne. No one stops you going there. The cops aren't gonna stop you. You're not gonna get fined for going to buy a new thing you need/want.
> 
> I went out and bought a new lawn mower the other day even. I had to dodge the guy in the surgical mask (why is it always the people with the face masks who don't social distance?) but otherwise was completely safe.


I think sometimes the masks give a false sense of security. To be extra clear I’m not saying masks aren’t useful but some seem to think they make you bulletproof.


----------



## Sears Poncho

markleake said:


> from many of the US states, where they have more complete lock downs. Australia seems a bit more relaxed because we all seem to be following the rules fairly well,


Ours is basically an education issue. Sweetie, you spelled "Governor" wrong...


----------



## patrick76

This is from the hospital I worked in today. We are contractors and deal with the fire/life safety issues so they deem us essential.





232 deaths from Covid-19 today in Michigan. We had a few days where the number was going down, but I believe this is the worst day yet.


----------



## dzilizzi

Okay, not trying to be political, but I was kind of forced to watch the 3 pm (PST) Covid brief on Fox News that I know you all hate. But they broadcast it as is, which my husband likes. They were saying it is to soon to reopen. Then I saw the local news and saw how they cut Trump's statement to make it sound like he thinks they should open up, when he actually said something like I understand that people need to open the economy, but it is too soon. I've never actually seen how much they edit it. I don't think Trump actually told people to protest. I do think something he said got edited. 

They also talked about the next wave. Because these things do come in waves, unfortunately. And they aren't cancelling the orders for ventilators. Even if they aren't needed now, we need to be ready for the next wave after things reopen. Hopefully they get more masks too. Oh, and toilet paper. Since the news at 6 also said there was a shortage of the wood chips used to make TP. 

If they really need more, we have a lot of sawdust and chips in my husband's woodshop.


----------



## gyprock

dzilizzi said:


> Then I saw the local news and saw how they cut Trump's statement to make it sound like he thinks they should open up, when he actually said something like I understand that people need to open the economy, but it is too soon


For crying out loud, Trump has been late on acting, early on opening up, tweeting to encourage governors to make the decision rather than himself, claiming that the death rate is under control and one of the lowest in the world per capita blah blah blah.

I'm from Australia and I watch Trump's daily press briefings so I get it straight from the horse's mouth. He is a master backtracker, master manipulator and never takes any responsibility for any of his actions. He is a slippery eel covered in snake oil.

As for Fox News, this is run by Rupert Murdoch - an Australian who stupidly gave up his citizenship. He was originally a publisher of various news rags in Australia that always had a bikini clad girl on the 3rd page. I occasionally watch Fox News when I want to be entertained by sycophantic Trump news anchors.


----------



## NYC Composer

I think watching a briefing in full is valid, and I’m quite sure editing to present a point of view happens all the time.

Did you find the briefing informative , reassuring, or at least not as self serving as is usual for Trump?


----------



## Sears Poncho

dzilizzi said:


> I don't think Trump actually told people to protest.


Hmmm. Apparently those commie pinko libby libtards at..... Fox think he supports the protesters, and his "liberate" was exactly what any sane person thinks it is.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

gyprock said:


> He is a master backtracker, master manipulator and never takes any responsibility for any of his actions. He is a slippery eel covered in snake oil.



Especially how he blames the W.H.O. for "taking too long".....despite warning him in early January. Now the US has the highest death and infection rates on the globe, and all he can think about is $$$$ and getting the nation back to business as usual. Our Canadian PM recently declined Trump's pressure to open border, could you imagine? We'd be back to square one.


----------



## gyprock

Wolfie2112 said:


> Especially how he blames the W.H.O. for "taking too long".....despite warning him in early January. Now the US has the highest death and infection rates on the globe, and all he can think about is $$$$ and getting the nation back to business as usual. Our Canadian PM recently declined Trump's pressure to open border, could you imagine? We'd be back to square one.


My wife is French Canadian and we both live in Sydney so we're following the Canadian news very closely as well. Keep the Canadian border closed as long as possible! I want to go to the Montreal Jazz Festival at least another time in my life.


----------



## dzilizzi

gyprock said:


> For crying out loud, Trump has been late on acting, early on opening up, tweeting to encourage governors to make the decision rather than himself, claiming that the death rate is under control and one of the lowest in the world per capita blah blah blah.
> 
> I'm from Australia and I watch Trump's daily press briefings so I get it straight from the horse's mouth. He is a master backtracker, master manipulator and never takes any responsibility for any of his actions. He is a slippery eel covered in snake oil.
> 
> As for Fox News, this is run by Rupert Murdoch - an Australian who stupidly gave up his citizenship. He was originally a publisher of various news rags in Australia that always had a bikini clad girl on the 3rd page. I occasionally watch Fox News when I want to be entertained by sycophantic Trump news anchors.


I think you are missing the point. I don't watch Fox news. They just do the full briefing live. We watch more for the team. It is the only thing my husband watches on Fox. And he normally only watches the regular news for the weather. If I have a choice, I don't watch the news at all. It is just that I saw a part of a speech I had been semi forced to sit through earlier in the day, not because I cared what he was saying, but it shocked me how they edited it to make it sound bad. 

Because the way the constitution is written, the President does not technically have the authority to shut down within the individual states. He could shut the borders to the country and maybe the borders between the states. Congress has some powers under the Dormant Commerce Clause when it relates to interstate commerce. But that's it. The states control the states. The federal government can only come in afterwards and clean up because the states let them. And now we are in politics again. 

It does look like our governor is going to keep things closed a little longer. At this point, especially in LA, the cases are still increasing daily. They are supposed to wait until they flatline or start decreasing before it is considered safe to think about opening back up. That is what I understand. But Georgia's governor is talking about opening up anyway. I think Alaska as well, but at least Alaska doesn't have a lot of cases.


----------



## dzilizzi

NYC Composer said:


> I think watching a briefing in full is valid, and I’m quite sure editing to present a point of view happens all the time.
> 
> Did you find the briefing informative , reassuring, or at least not as self serving as is usual for Trump?


The people on the team do present a lot of good information. As I said, I don't generally listen to Trump babble on. There was just some talk about getting South Korea to start helping pay for our troops who protect their country. So I paid attention for a bit having previously worked for the military as a civilian and married to an AF retiree. 

I liked that they said they were still going to get more ventilators even though it seems we have enough right now. Trump said if we end up not needing them we would share with our allies or something like that. But the want them for the second wave they are expecting. They seem to think it will hit around September. That is a little worrying.


----------



## NYC Composer

I think the same thing about a second wave, and I’m very curious how it will affect the election.

I think it could have been largely avoided with better leadership.


----------



## Vik

gyprock said:


> For crying out loud, Trump has been late on acting, early on opening up, tweeting to encourage governors to make the decision rather than himself, claiming that the death rate is under control and one of the lowest in the world per capita blah blah blah.


Here's what he said recently, according to the White House homepage: "Thirty states have just one case or less per 1,000 people — far fewer cases per capita, as an example, than Germany, the United Kingdom, France, Italy, Ireland, Switzerland, Singapore, Belgium, Spain, Norway, the Netherlands, Austria, Sweden."
I don't know what's most scary, Trump, the amount of followers he still has, or that he constantly presents distorted 'facts'. Why do he/they behave as if they know how many cases there are in each country? The number of _confirmed_ cases still doesn't tell us that, since they are dependent on both the criterions for who are bing tested and also on how large proportion of tests each country have, seen as a percentage of the population. The virus has been around for several months now, and they keep talking about the situation as if they don't understand the basics of looking at statistics. US still tests only half as many as they do where I live, has 4 times as many deaths, and almost 20% of those who are tested have the virus - in Italy that number is circa 13%, it's 5% here. The whole situation is a total tragedy, so his endless and tasteless bragging is just more misplaced than ever.

He would probably have won some votes if he admitted that he had totally failed, and failed for too long, and that many lives would have been saved if he acted earlier – but he can't seem to stop bragging and blaming - and firing people. It doesn't help that he picks out some states and present the numbers in a misleading way. If he wants to look at how the least troubled areas in US look in comparison with other countries, he should compare it with how the least infected areas in other countries look.


----------



## MauroPantin

The number of figures that you have to keep track of to understand the issue on a basic level, (let alone a proficient one) is quite substantial. The more numbers that people throw around (death rate, confirmed case/death ratio, testing/deaths ratio, confirmed case/testing ratio, testing per 1000 people, hospital beds per capita, logarithmic scales and exponential curves, etc) the easier it is to get stuff mixed up and start doing comparisons against other statistics which might not be as accurate or appropriate.

If anything, this issue underscores the importance of having a well-educated society with proper scientific literacy. It's in everyone's best interest to ensure that the people next door have a good understanding of math and reading comprehension. It is the only way to fight the BS. Even a Trump supporter should agree on this considering how much they tend to throw the "fake news!" motto around. People with good reading comprehension and math skills can spot the difference between an opinion, a fact and an outright lie in an article or news report.


----------



## Vik

MauroPantin said:


> The more numbers that people throw around (death rate, confirmed case/death ratio, testing/deaths ratio, confirmed case/testing ratio, testing per 1000 people, hospital beds per capita, logarithmic scales and exponential curves, etc) the easier it is to get stuff mixed up


Maybe, and that's why it is crucial to focus on the numbers which really matters. "Cases" isn't one of them, and even with only this single word (which is somehow the main word in many statements I've seen), it's easy to get stuff mixed up - because 'cases', as used in all the tables out there, doesn't mean "number of Covid19 infected people". It's only about confirmed cases. The number that matters the most may be the number of people who actually are getting sick or die, but this must - when comparing the situation in different parts of the world – be seen as a percentage of the population in that area. Another number which really matters is the one which shows how large percentage of the tested who are confirmed to have the virus, but if we don't know how the different states/countries test people (health personal? only those who seem to be sick? random selection?), such numbers can be misleading too.


----------



## sIR dORT

MauroPantin said:


> If anything, this issue underscores the importance of having a well-educated society with proper scientific literacy. It's in everyone's best interest to ensure that the people next door have a good understanding of math and reading comprehension. It is the only way to fight the BS. Even a Trump supporter should agree on this considering how much they tend to throw the "fake news!" motto around. People with good reading comprehension and math skills can spot the difference between an opinion, a fact and an outright lie in an article or news report.


Good point. Also, I still don't think we know much information that is actually concrete. Experts' estimates are constantly changing, and it's been that way for a while.


dzilizzi said:


> But the want them for the second wave they are expecting. They seem to think it will hit around September. That is a little worrying


The question is will we have to shut down again to make sure cases stay below the health care system's capacity. We'll be more prepared for sure, but I agree it's worrying (gonna be my first semester of college, so shutting down and immediately going home would not be so fun).


----------



## patrick76

dzilizzi said:


> I don't think Trump actually told people to protest.


I don't think he told them to protest, but he has been supportive of them on several occasions - the worst of which, imho, was 2 days after the protest in Michigan he tweeted, "LIBERATE MICHIGAN!" 

Of course, shortly before that he was asserting his total authority over the states, then, changed his mind and said the states would be responsible for determining when they should ease up on restrictions. They (Trump's task force) gave guidelines, which none of the states currently satisfy, but Trump, in what I can only characterize as a purely political move calls to LIBERATE 3 states with democrat governors. 

It is exhausting trying to keep up with Trump. If you don't watch him every day it can be hard to know what his position is on something.


----------



## chimuelo

So much for the experts.
And watching Trump read off a script how great he is bores me.
He doesn’t do well at conveying confidence.

But do enjoy watching him bash fake news parrots sometimes.

Best thing we can do is practice hygiene and social distancing.
I carry 2 spray bottles of homemade disinfectant in my car.
One for the interior for when my gloves come off.
One in the trunk fo immediate cleaning after a store or trip anywhere.
When you load your groceries, spraying them is easy, then clean your produce when you get home.

As far as driving around with a mask on, I think these folks have issues with farts.


----------



## chimuelo

Can’t believe I gave up a great life with excellent pay in Nashville, while residing 1 hour away in rural Kentucky where Omish Farmers and Mennonite Butchers had the finest organic produce & meats East of the Mississippi.

Gave that all up to be in Vegas in time for the Covid-19 shutdown.
Luckily I walked into a great gig long enough to get DETR payouts.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Careful spraying those Mennonite meats with disinfectant.


----------



## dzilizzi

patrick76 said:


> I don't think he told them to protest, but he has been supportive of them on several occasions - the worst of which, imho, was 2 days after the protest in Michigan he tweeted, "LIBERATE MICHIGAN!"
> 
> Of course, shortly before that he was asserting his total authority over the states, then, changed his mind and said the states would be responsible for determining when they should ease up on restrictions. They (Trump's task force) gave guidelines, which none of the states currently satisfy, but Trump, in what I can only characterize as a purely political move calls to LIBERATE 3 states with democrat governors.
> 
> It is exhausting trying to keep up with Trump. If you don't watch him every day it can be hard to know what his position is on something.


Problem with Trump is he reacts. Then he is told that he can't say that, it is not legal, so he backtracks. I don't think he actually understands the Constitution. Or laws in general. Unless it relates to real estate. I really don't think he was planning on winning the election. He was a Hillary supporter and she must have done something major to piss him off enough to run against her. So really, he is winging it 90% of the time. If you really want to know what is going on, you have to listen to the other people who know what they are doing. 

He kind of reminds me of Reagan. Only Reagan knew his lines better.


----------



## jbuhler

dzilizzi said:


> He kind of reminds me of Reagan. Only Reagan knew his lines better.


Reagan was a keen politician who had been a reasonably successful governor of California before he ran for President. He understood politics and understood the role of President. Trump is mobbed-up real estate developer who somehow parlayed his real estate failures into a reality show gig, the only thing he ever succeeded at aside from getting himself elected President while losing the popular vote pretty badly. But he had no real previous political experience and hasn't shown any interest in learning politics. That is likely one thing that attracts his supporters as it gives his erratic actions an aura of authenticity, even when those actions seem seriously misguided to his supporters. Still, he is likely our stupidest President and by a wide margin, not because he lacks native intelligence or makes especially dumb decisions, but because his persona demands that he be always right, that none of the consequences of his decisions be his responsibility, and that every one of his decisions to have in fact been "perfect." He's definitely not the President you want presiding over a pandemic.


----------



## chimuelo

dzilizzi said:


> Problem with Trump is he reacts. Then he is told that he can't say that, it is not legal, so he backtracks. I don't think he actually understands the Constitution. Or laws in general. Unless it relates to real estate. I really don't think he was planning on winning the election. He was a Hillary supporter and she must have done something major to piss him off enough to run against her. So really, he is winging it 90% of the time. If you really want to know what is going on, you have to listen to the other people who know what they are doing.
> 
> He kind of reminds me of Reagan. Only Reagan knew his lines better.



Trump-is the loud mouth out of control gangster Sean Connery spoke of to Wesley Snipes in Rising Sun.

He just barges into everything, wreaking Havoc, and during the chaos manages to have things fixed because everyone is screaming, this makes them more productive. It’s how you get Towers built under budget and ahead of time.

Its been repeated over and over, yet the media refuses to acknowledge this successful strategy.

Only thing they’ve learned is ignoring Trump is how you knock him off his game. Sadly, they waited for a pandemic to do this, so now they look dumber than Trump, if that’s even possible.

They're handing him an easy 2nd term and too stupid to see it.
Biden better fake an illness or take a few million to bow out.
Guys who suck up to Chinese cash dont stand a chance in 2020.
Good luck finding a Liberal that doesn’t praise the CCP.


----------



## Kony

chimuelo said:


> Gave that all up to be in Vegas in time for the Covid-19 shutdown


Apparently your local mayor Carolyn Goodman was just on a TV interview saying that she wants to open the casinos and offered the local citizens to be a control group.


----------



## dzilizzi

Kony said:


> Apparently your local mayor Carolyn Goodman was just on a TV interview saying that she wants to open the casinos and offered the local citizens to be a control group.


They are dying. All the state's money comes from those casinos. And they were having problems before the pandemic started. I think they built a few too many casinos for what the tourist industry can currently support. 

I do feel bad for the workers, though. They don't have a lot of benefits or rights. And most of the people who live there work in the casinos.


----------



## Sears Poncho

I have 4 outdoor Symphony "Pops" shows in August. Correction: I "had" 4 shows in August. Just read it in the paper. Not like it's a big surprise.


----------



## dzilizzi

Sears Poncho said:


> I have 4 outdoor Symphony "Pops" shows in August. Correction: I "had" 4 shows in August. Just read it in the paper. Not like it's a big surprise.


Sorry to hear that. I think by August we will need some outdoor music. 

You can play with a mask, right? 

No, seriously, it may come to that. 6 feet apart. If you aren't blowing, you need a mask. Everyone playing from their home on a big screen? I sit in my backyard with a picnic blanket and Zoom or YouTube on my iPad? See, now I'm trying to figure out ways around this. It could work....


----------



## Sears Poncho

dzilizzi said:


> You can play with a mask, right?
> 
> No, seriously, it may come to that


Before it gets to that point, a bigger problem will be funding. There ain't none. No money coming in for performing arts, everybody is begging, very few are giving. Everybody is doing some kind of podcast/zoom/hey look at us in our living rooms. One group I write for tried some youtube thingy, they raised 5 dollars. The best part: one of the players gave the 5 bucks.


----------



## dzilizzi

Sears Poncho said:


> Before it gets to that point, a bigger problem will be funding. There ain't none. No money coming in for performing arts, everybody is begging, very few are giving. Everybody is doing some kind of podcast/zoom/hey look at us in our living rooms. One group I write for tried some youtube thingy, they raised 5 dollars. The best part: one of the players gave the 5 bucks.


My husband and I are lucky in that we are still employed, though we work from home. But I get that a lot of others who have lost their jobs, and especially those who don't qualify for unemployment, just don't have the money to give anymore. 

Unfortunately, I think with YouTube, you have to hit a certain subscriber level to get money. And then you really have to be up at the 1 million + level to really make money. I let it run in the background while I'm working. Hopefully, some of the things I watch help out.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

dzilizzi said:


> My husband and I are lucky in that we are still employed, though we work from home. But I get that a lot of others who have lost their jobs, and especially those who don't qualify for unemployment, just don't have the money to give anymore.
> 
> Unfortunately, I think with YouTube, you have to hit a certain subscriber level to get money. And then you really have to be up at the 1 million + level to really make money. I let it run in the background while I'm working. Hopefully, some of the things I watch help out.



It’s not that high. To be a part of the YouTube Partner Program, you need at least 4,000 watch hours in the last 12 months, and 1000 subscribers.


----------



## Kony

Here's what Carolyn Goodman actually said:

"I offered to be a control group and I was told by our statistician you can't do that because people from all parts of southern Nevada come in to work in the city. And I said, 'Oh, that's too bad.' Because I know, when you have a disease, you have a placebo, that gets the water and the sugar, and then you get those that actually get the shot. We would love to be that placebo side so that you have something to measure against."


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

As I just tweeted:

New daily confirmed cases in Los Angeles Country average 408 (± a couple of 100) 4/7 - 4/17.

4/20 - 4/22: 1475, 1324, 1295. Supposedly one lab was lagging, but that's three days of 3X increase all of a sudden. 

Why?


----------



## dflood

Thundercat said:


> Do you know that hospitals are over-reporting Covid deaths? If someone dies of cancer but has Covid, it’s counted as a Covid death.



On the contrary, there appears to be a huge undercount. The monthly death totals in many regions are up by far more than the official coronavirus death count plus the normal number of deaths from all causes for the same period. This has been documented by many mainstream sources.


----------



## TinderC

Interesting question as to what numbers someone might care about. Here in northern California, a recent Stanford study indicated that the infection rate may be 50-80 times what the reported cases are. Various scientists are attacking the methodology but if you simply take that info and say 'the lethality of covid is low' you are taking the perspective of an asymptomatic person. As soon as you have symptoms and test positive you join a different population for which the numbers are not so good.


----------



## dzilizzi

Unless they test everyone every day, there is no sure way to know how many actual cases there are and what the actual death rate is. They can only estimate it. It's not practical even if it could be done. 

What you really want is all the people who are likely to survive to get it but stay away from those who aren't healthy until they aren't contagious. That way we build up our immunity as a people. Unfortunately, I don't think that can be done without exposing the unhealthy. And? You might think a 20 year old is healthy but maybe (s)he has an unknown heart condition. Also, I don't know if they determined whether getting it and getting better gives you immunity or not.


----------



## sIR dORT

dzilizzi said:


> Unless they test everyone every day, there is no sure way to know how many actual cases there are and what the actual death rate is. They can only estimate it. It's not practical even if it could be done.


Spot on.


----------



## dflood

dzilizzi said:


> Unless they test everyone every day, there is no sure way to know how many actual cases there are and what the actual death rate is. They can only estimate it. It's not practical even if it could be done.
> 
> What you really want is all the people who are likely to survive to get it but stay away from those who aren't healthy until they aren't contagious. That way we build up our immunity as a people. Unfortunately, I don't think that can be done without exposing the unhealthy. And? You might think a 20 year old is healthy but maybe (s)he has an unknown heart condition. Also, I don't know if they determined whether getting it and getting better gives you immunity or not.


It isn’t just people with underlying health conditions or the aged. Young and otherwise healthy people have become very sick and some have died. The lingering after effects among the survivors of severe illness are as yet unknown but there will be some. The cost of achieving ‘herd immunity’ in the absence of a vaccine or a miracle antiviral drug is just too steep. That is the dilemma facing public health officials as they try to manage a way out of this.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

TinderC said:


> Interesting question as to what numbers someone might care about. Here in northern California, a recent Stanford study indicated that the infection rate may be 50-80 times what the reported cases are. Various scientists are attacking the methodology but if you simply take that info and say 'the lethality of covid is low' you are taking the perspective of an asymptomatic person. As soon as you have symptoms and test positive you join a different population for which the numbers are not so good.



Yes, however I've also read more than one epidemiologist who's skeptical of that study. False positives, etc.

Who knows. It seems that the one thing we learn more and more every day is that we know less and less about this virus.

One thing we do know is that the number of confirmed new cases confirmed is clearly not a reflection of the number of actual new infections. The trend probably says something - as does the number of deaths - but it's certainly not an accurate number.



dflood said:


> It isn’t just people with underlying health conditions or the aged.



No it isn't. There's clearly more to it than that.

This is interesting (not to ignore that it's also horrible):

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/04/22/coronavirus-blood-clots/?fbclid=IwAR37phCIWdIZhQthSFi7ZIGXa-GMHKnVkFe0_BrMSbjb2qE6ERQQ0d-ZusY
My first question was whether blood clotting accounted for *all* the deaths (other than the ones that are just because the victim isn't strong enough to fight off the virus, as with the flu or pneumonia). Who knows who knows who knows.

It's also curious that black people seem to be dying disproportionately. Yes it's economic, but there are genetic factors with lots of things - for example sickle cell anemia affects mainly or only black people, as a physician in my family pointed out.


----------



## Vik

dzilizzi said:


> Unless they test everyone every day, there is no sure way to know how many actual cases there are and what the actual death rate is. They can only estimate it.


True. But they could combine what they do now with a different approach, where they try to estimate how large percentage of the general population which has C19. What happens today and the way various countries are compared only creates confusion — since almost none of these counties report where/how/who they test. One single day of testing random people in the streets of NYC would reveal information we don’t have today.


----------



## dzilizzi

Vik said:


> True. But they could combine what they do now with a different approach, where they try to estimate how large percentage of the general population which has C19. What happens today and the way various countries are compared only creates confusion — since almost none of these counties report where/how/who they test. One single day of testing random people in the streets of NYC would reveal information we don’t have today.


Problem with that method is picking the "random" people. It is never really random enough. And to do proper random sampling for extrapolation to a population you need to know the error rate before you pick the sample. Plus you would have to be picky about where the people you are selecting are from. Are you just looking at people who live and work in NYC? Then you need to make sure you aren't including people from NJ or Long Island who work essential jobs in the city. 

Though a trained scientist usually will take this into account, most of the government does not understand proper sampling.


----------



## Sears Poncho

Kony said:


> Apparently your local mayor Carolyn Goodman was just on a TV interview saying that she wants to open the casinos


As nutty as this lady is, I'm trying to imagine the following:

"Yo bro, we had a WILD weekend in Vegas. Met these chicks, this one had a mask that was so sexy. Her perfume was sexy too, she described it to me although I couldn't hear it all since she was screaming over the portable ventilator that one guy had. After some shots, we tore up the dance floor....and then the slow ballad came on, she snuggled up within 6 feet."


----------



## Vik

dzilizzi said:


> Problem with that method is picking the "random" people.


Sure. I used 'random' instead of writing 'a wide selection of people, which as much as possible reflect the average population'-ish.... meant as an alternative to test only those who ask for a test, only health personell, only those with C19-like symptoms... or a more or less random combination of these. Most countries probably do that. 

Anyway - the bottom line is that when testing only 1 or 2 % of the population, the numbers they get will never reflect the actual total numbers of Covid19-infected people.


----------



## JohnG

We don't actually have to reinvent epidemiology here -- there are standard methods (admittedly inexact) for counting deaths from any catastrophe: earthquake, hurricane, pandemic. Someone partly mentioned it above -- it's more or less "deaths above the expected." There is nothing nefarious about using a methodology that everyone knows is not perfect, as long as it is helpful in measuring 'excess deaths' in a particular situation.

Separately, just saw this article in five thirty-eight:









Why Are Some Young, Healthy People Getting Severe COVID-19?


Most young people who get COVID-19 get pretty nasty flu-like symptoms but fight off the infection on their own with bed rest and over-the-counter pain medicatio…




fivethirtyeight.com


----------



## dzilizzi

Vik said:


> Sure. I used 'random' instead of writing 'a wide selection of people, which as much as possible reflect the average population'-ish.... meant as an alternative to test only those who ask for a test, only health personell, only those with C19-like symptoms... or a more or less random combination of these. Most countries probably do that.
> 
> Anyway - the bottom line is that when testing only 1 or 2 % of the population, the numbers they get will never reflect the actual total numbers of Covid19-infected people.


LOL! Sorry, one of my buttons. We use random samples at work. The higher ups want us to use statistical sampling but don't understand the difference between a random sample and a statistical sample. A general random sample cannot be used to make assumptions about the population. A statistical sample can, but requires more work than they want us to do. And the statistician they hired doesn't seem to be able to explain this to them. 

But true. Testing random people rather than just sick ones would probably be a better indication of the population as a whole.


----------



## Vik

dzilizzi said:


> But true. Testing random people rather than just sick ones would probably be a better indication of the population as a whole.


Sure. If a country tests only sick people, the percentage estimated based on these numbers may too high. For countries who prioritise testing health personell, the estimates may be too low. And so on.


----------



## MartinH.




----------



## Alex Fraser

What worries me:
Seemingly, it appears the scientific community argue over the prevention and treatment of Covid-19 in the same way we argue over legato transitions.


----------



## Sears Poncho

Alex Fraser said:


> What worries me:
> Seemingly, it appears the scientific community argue over the prevention and treatment of Covid-19 in the same way we argue over legato transitions.



Well, none of us think legato transitions are "fake". I hope.


----------



## TinderC

Sears Poncho said:


> Well, none of us think legato transitions are "fake". I hope.


I've been sheltering with spiccato but I see others out and about using legato all over the place. They just don't care.


----------



## I like music

Sears Poncho said:


> Well, none of us think legato transitions are "fake". I hope.



There's the Agile Legato hoax. I've heard it was sampled in a Chinese lab, and that there are people in Europe who have it. But I've never heard it, so I'm calling bullshit on it.


----------



## Sears Poncho

TinderC said:


> I've been sheltering with spiccato but I see others out and about using legato all over the place. They just don't care.


LOOK: the ONLY way we can settle the legato/spiccato issue is more tax cuts for the wealthy!


----------



## jbuhler

Sears Poncho said:


> LOOK: the ONLY way we can settle the legato/spiccato issue is more tax cuts for the wealthy!


Yes, everyone knows that the secret to a robust legato is tax cuts for the wealthy.


----------



## TinderC

Liberate Legato !


----------



## Vik

Sears Poncho said:


> Well, none of us think legato transitions are "fake".


But we do know when sarcasm is fake.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Vik said:


> But we do know when sarcasm is fake.


I don't.


----------



## Vik

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I don't.


Never mind, it was just a silly joke about a president.


----------



## Kony

Vik said:


> Never mind, it was just a silly joke about a president.


----------



## Sears Poncho

Vik said:


> But we do know when sarcasm is fake.


----------



## Kony




----------



## dzilizzi

You all should be contributing to this charity:


----------



## Vik




----------



## dzilizzi

Vik said:


>



He plays like I do.....


----------



## jononotbono

Hope everyone is wearing a mask when they type in this thread!


----------



## dzilizzi

So, last week I was sitting in front of the vet's in my car waiting for my appointment. I see this guy in a truck drive up, park, and gets out. He reaches into his pocket and pulls out a piece of fabric. He pulls it over his head and adjusts it to cover everything but his eyes. He walks into a store up the mall from my vet's. 

I thought to myself, a year ago if I saw that, I would have called the police. Then as I see him come out with to go containers, I think, hey the sushi place is open! Our regular sushi place is closed.


----------



## MauroPantin

High hopes when it was announced people could get out for an hour a day to go for a walk and get some sun. They went back on it and it is not happening. We had another extension, there will be at least another two weeks of lockdown here. And every time, as soon as it gets extended, it starts to get suggested that it is not the last extension.


----------



## Tim_Wells

TigerTheFrog said:


> I predict that Trump will eventually direct FEMA to procure and collect all PPE and ventilators and distribute according to need.
> 
> He'll do it when his poll numbers go down.


Very possible. He starts doing stuff about 60 or more days after the time he should of. And even then, it's usually a very half-assed attempt.


----------



## jononotbono

Don't know about anyone else but the supermarkets are doing my tits in! Time to run to the Hills!


----------



## Delacey86

I’m a professional actor working in a big West End musical (disfigured composer spends all his spare time training young girl to sing until she runs off with her childhood sweetheart). Doubtful if theatre will start any time before September (and that’s being generous I think) so I’m spending my time re learning Logic and contributing vocally to a few online charity singles. My dog is getting more walks than she’s used to and I’m looking at my extensive range of resistance bands and dumbells without actually using them much at all!
i splashed out on a KK S61 MK 2 which I love, and took the plunge on composer cloud, which has given me choice paralysis but is a safer economical undertaking than splashing out big cash on libraries.
My project in the next few weeks is to build my studio work desk to house everything and to get some acoustic panels made for the walls in my recording studio/office/spare bedroom. I’m still conscious that buying things for diy projects might seem irresponsible at the moment but with all this spare time it seems a waste to not get things done.


----------



## MartinH.

How do you guys react to those people that say "The average age of those who died from covid19 is about the same age of the average life expectancy." ?

My instinct is that the average statistical life expectancy must drop through this because it's a statistical mean that also accounts for all the deaths of younger persons, so that if you cut off the lives of a lot of people at ~80 wo e.g. would have made it till ~85 or ~90, you're tipping the scale of the statistical average toward a lower life expectancy if enough people die at ~80 from covid19. *)

Also I find these discussions with friends incredibly exhausting and I'm worried about this topic splitting societies, because it's just so hart to not have a clear opinion on it that falls on one side or the other.


*) Edit: After looking at some more numbers I think that's about right. We have a little under 1 million deaths per year, ~400k dying below 80. We have 5+ million aged 80+, and if of those 1 in 6 would die (I heard that somewhere as a mortality range for old people but I don't think there are any accurate numbers yet), that would nearly double the number of deaths from baseline this year. That would affect the number you calculate for average life expectancy in that year I think. Not to mention all those corona deaths in the below 80 age range...


----------



## redlester

Less than 2 months in and I just ordered my 2nd hardware synth since lockdown. 🤣


----------



## Sears Poncho

redlester said:


> Less than 2 months in and I just ordered my 2nd hardware synth since lockdown. 🤣


I made my first Covidtime purchase today. Spitfire cinematic perc., $29. Excellent but a bit anti-climactic. I can go "boom" and "swoosh".  But it was enough to fend off the GAS a bit and make me feel like I'm still a musician. I hope Spitfire makes a lot more of these lil gems.


----------



## gyprock

MartinH. said:


> How do you guys react to those people that say "The average age of those who died from covid19 is about the same age of the average life expectancy." ?
> 
> My instinct is that the average statistical life expectancy must drop through this because it's a statistical mean that also accounts for all the deaths of younger persons, so that if you cut off the lives of a lot of people at ~80 wo e.g. would have made it till ~85 or ~90, you're tipping the scale of the statistical average toward a lower life expectancy if enough people die at ~80 from covid19. *)
> 
> Also I find these discussions with friends incredibly exhausting and I'm worried about this topic splitting societies, because it's just so hart to not have a clear opinion on it that falls on one side or the other.
> 
> 
> *) Edit: After looking at some more numbers I think that's about right. We have a little under 1 million deaths per year, ~400k dying below 80. We have 5+ million aged 80+, and if of those 1 in 6 would die (I heard that somewhere as a mortality range for old people but I don't think there are any accurate numbers yet), that would nearly double the number of deaths from baseline this year. That would affect the number you calculate for average life expectancy in that year I think. Not to mention all those corona deaths in the below 80 age range...


Death rate during a pandemic is questionable because it depends on how overrun the hospital system is and what country you’re in. What would be the rate if the pandemic were free to run wild, without medical intervention? What would be the rate if everyone had personalised care and ventilators? How much is the pandemic acting as a catalyst for amplifying other conditions? What about post infection complications in organs causing death some time after a patient is tested negative? Would the Spanish Flu of 1918 been so rampant if it weren’t for the war. So many questions. I heard that Portugal wasn’t affected like Spain because school kids there continued to get mandatory vaccinations during 1970s and 80s whereas Spain had stopped earlier. This seems to imply that Portuguese may have greater immunity. The conclusion is to listen to the science rather than the politics.


----------



## dflood

MartinH. said:


> How do you guys react to those people that say "The average age of those who died from covid19 is about the same age of the average life expectancy." ?



What point are they trying to make? That COVID-19 will kill some people who would have died soon anyway from other causes? The answer is undoubtably, yes. But the disease is also killing many others far prematurely. Just look at the huge increases in total deaths in areas with severe outbreaks: 
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/28/us/coronavirus-death-toll-total.html

As we gain experience with this virus, we are also starting to see debilitating chronic after effects among the survivors including pulmonary fibrosis, heart, kidney, and neurologic damage. So it isn’t just the death rate we should be concerned with, although that is alarming enough.


----------



## MartinH.

@gyprock & @dflood: I'm with you on all points. It's just I'm in a lengthy email debate with someone who doesn't believe Covid19 to be dangerous enough to warrant the measures we're taking. Here in Germany we are blessed with very low numbers of deaths and hospitals are half empty because we've reacted quickly enough to the outbreak. Experts call it the "pandemics paradoxon" or something like that - the better the preventive measures work, the more people say it was a totally overblown reaction and would have been fine anyway. When millions die, everyone says the government should have done more and and it's all their fault. But when they do, and it works, and barely anyone dies, they want to found political resistance parties and infiltrate the government to stop the preventive measures. It's utterly frustrating. 

And then there are thousands of anti-vaxxers or conspiracy nutjobs that think Bill Gates wants to literally kill them or chip them with vaccinations. It's so frustrating, this country feels more divided to me than in years. People cherrypick the stuff they listen too, they're super scared of vaccines and their long term effects but completely ignore that we know even less about Covid19 long term effects. The internet is filled with people holding some kind of "trust-inspiring title" (like doctor or professor - doesn't matter if it's not in virology...) and claiming to be experts, while talking total bullshit. And it's apparently impossible for people to pick out those that make rational and reasonable arguments rooted in science and have actual knowledge and past publications on the subject. It's like a war of misinformation that is fought on social media. I have watched a couple of those "counter arguments" by various people, so that no one can claim I'm just staying in my own echo chamber, and not a single one of them was remotely convincing to me. I don't get how so many people fall for them.


----------



## gyprock

The truth will be available in 6 to 12 months when countries are in their 2nd and subsequent waves. The stats will not lie. Fuckwits like Trump et al will have to eat their words if they are still with us.


----------



## Vik

gyprock said:


> Trump et al will have to eat their words


He's busy eating them already, isn't he (but hiding that he does)?


----------



## redlester

Sears Poncho said:


> I made my first Covidtime purchase today. Spitfire cinematic perc., $29. Excellent but a bit anti-climactic. I can go "boom" and "swoosh".  But it was enough to fend off the GAS a bit and make me feel like I'm still a musician. I hope Spitfire makes a lot more of these lil gems.



My GAS has gone into overdrive this week with the launch of the new Moog Subharmonicon but I guess that’s for threads elsewhere.


----------



## darcvision

covid-19 affect my life pretty hard, but at least i can make music everyday...
recently graduate in december 2019, doing alot of interview and still unemployed until now.
actually i'm still open freelancing music, but i gave up because its very hard to find clients. maybe my music is just sucks or i'm bad at marketing myself.


----------



## MauroPantin

Still in lockdown here. I feel like the Titanic lady. It's been 84 years...



stefandy31 said:


> covid-19 affect my life pretty hard, but at least i can make music everyday...
> recently graduate in december 2019, doing alot of interview and still unemployed until now.
> actually i'm still open freelancing music, but i gave up because its very hard to find clients. maybe my music is just sucks or i'm bad at marketing myself.



Stay strong, man. The only thing you start at the top is a ditch. I checked your Soundcloud, you're doing alright in the music department. If you can force yourself to do it, try to allocate an hour or two a day to learning about marketing, business practices, and reaching out to people, music chops are only half of the game. Learning to run a freelance business is a skill that takes time to hone just like an instrument. But it is a skill worth learning, in music and elsewhere.


----------



## darcvision

MauroPantin said:


> Still in lockdown here. I feel like the Titanic lady. It's been 84 years...
> 
> 
> 
> Stay strong, man. The only thing you start at the top is a ditch. I checked your Soundcloud, you're doing alright in the music department. If you can force yourself to do it, try to allocate an hour or two a day to learning about marketing, business practices, and reaching out to people, music chops are only half of the game. Learning to run a freelance business is a skill that takes time to hone just like an instrument. But it is a skill worth learning, in music and elsewhere.


honestly i'm still clueless how i do something like marketing business despite my music isn't good enough and not confidence with my music. i tried to post freelance job like fiverr, reddit and upwork, but its very saturated and hard to finding clients. btw i'm using wix for showcasing my work, but since i'm software engineer, i'm planning to make an simple website with free hosting for showcasing my work, but i dont know if its worth or not. i think i want to try to post my job again at fiverr or reddit. also thanks for listening my story.


----------



## MartinH.

stefandy31 said:


> honestly i'm still clueless how i do something like marketing business despite my music isn't good enough and not confidence with my music. i tried to post freelance job like fiverr, reddit and upwork, but its very saturated and hard to finding clients. btw i'm using wix for showcasing my work, but since i'm software engineer, i'm planning to make an simple website with free hosting for showcasing my work, but i dont know if its worth or not. i think i want to try to post my job again at fiverr or reddit. also thanks for listening my story.



Check out this thread: 




__





Video game composition job boards?


Do these exist? What’s the best way to find video game writing work? From what I’ve seen so far, it seems to be mostly networking and word of mouth... but how can you get “in” to start with? Any tips / resources would be much appreciated - thank you in advance!



vi-control.net


----------



## jonathanparham

stefandy31 said:


> covid-19 affect my life pretty hard, but at least i can make music everyday...
> recently graduate in december 2019, doing alot of interview and still unemployed until now.
> actually i'm still open freelancing music, but i gave up because its very hard to find clients. maybe my music is just sucks or i'm bad at marketing myself.


Hang in there


----------



## darcvision

MartinH. said:


> Check out this thread:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Video game composition job boards?
> 
> 
> Do these exist? What’s the best way to find video game writing work? From what I’ve seen so far, it seems to be mostly networking and word of mouth... but how can you get “in” to start with? Any tips / resources would be much appreciated - thank you in advance!
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net


never heard about unity connect, thanks.. gonna try this. about fiver and upwork, i think they're very competitive and hard to find clients.


----------



## BradHoyt

Thankfully I'm still employed, so this may seem trivial to some...

Since this whole thing started, I've turned my attention back to what sample libraries have been released recently (I didn't may much attention for the past 2-3 years due to work and distraction, etc) 

This is what I wish I knew about sooner! 

*Ben Osterhouse* (https://www.kontakthub.com/label/ben-osterhouse/)- Wow! Great prices, and great quality strings + Proof that you can never have too many string libraries, because the performances, and the programming, can make all the difference  

*ThePhonoLoop* (https://thephonoloop.com/) - An entire collection of very well done sample libraries that were recorded on various cassette decks, and they sound super authentic... Agh! I wish I knew about these last year before Christmas. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but if it is... 

Anyway, felt compelled to shamelessly endorse these libraries. lol


----------



## dzilizzi

Well, I gave my husband his first Covid haircut. The clippers weren't working well and I'm not used to doing really, really short cuts. When I was a hairdresser for a brief moment in the 80's, hair was much longer for most men that went to the places I worked. But he is happy with it and not bald. 

Fun times! I hope the barber shops open soon here.


----------



## MauroPantin

Still on lockdown here, and not getting any flexibility, so I already had not one, but two COVID haircuts. 

Our schedule is also completely fucked. We're living in Japan Standard Time right now.


----------



## Rodney Money

I debated on writing this since so many musicians are having difficulties during these times, but I’ve never been busier concerning commissions. So many people and ensembles are looking for hope and are commissioning pieces of hope to be performed after this pandemic. I’ve used samples for mock-ups, sent them to clients, then received the commission: I’m finishing a brass band piece now that they are wanting a meaningful piece to record on their Christmas album, 7 churches are coming together to get me to write an organ, brass, and choir piece, a work for saxophone ensemble and choir, a brass quintet piece for July 4th, and a full orchestral piece. All of these ensembles are looking for hope, and the hope that they will unite again soon and they want music that talks about that. There are opportunities out there. Just work for them and dare I say write music that actually means something having purpose.


----------



## jsg

I had to cancel recording sessions with a singer and another with a poet. My daughter had to cancel her wedding plans. My students no longer come to the studio, we work together online. My wife and I do our grocery shopping only once a month or once every three weeks and stock up and we wear masks every time we go into the market. I've been working at home composing music for the past 35 years and my wife's a writer so we're comfortable with solitude and being at home. But I miss my chess playing buddies at the local cafe, we now play online but I miss going to the cafe and getting out of the house in the late afternoons. I'm a bit worried that things are opening up too quickly. Coronavirus is far more lethal than the flu, which kills about .1% of those infected. Covid-19 kills anywhere from 2% to 6% infected. It's also stealth, it can be passed on without symptoms and finally, it is easily transmissible. Even if you're young and healthy, you really don't want to contract this virus. I hope everyone practices social distancing, wears a mask when indoors with others, washes their hands frequently and avoids large gatherings. If we all do this, the pandemic will eventually subside.


----------



## Sears Poncho

jsg said:


> I hope everyone practices social distancing, wears a mask when indoors with others, washes their hands frequently and avoids large gatherings. If we all do this, the pandemic will eventually subside.


Amen. Keep saying it, as many times as humanly possible.

I had a mentor/colleague/teacher who just succumbed to it. 74 I think. Good guy with some serious cred in the classical world, and was very inspirational to a young me (I'm 55 now). Very sad, very eye-opening as well. He was an active, still working pro in his prime IMO, 74 isn't a kid but for conductors it's "still in the game". So hell yeah, wear the damn masks, stay away from each other, wash those hands.


----------



## mikeh-375

I'm already hearing some sad things about musos struggling and with a government briefing just finished here in the UK saying that new infections are daily, in the thousands, we are clearly in it for the long haul....but hey, apparently I can now invite 6 people around for a barbecue...huh?


----------



## dzilizzi

mikeh-375 said:


> I'm already hearing some sad things about musos struggling and with a government briefing just finished here in the UK saying that new infections are daily, in the thousands, we are clearly in it for the long haul....but hey, apparently I can now invite 6 people around for a barbecue...huh?


It's hard because technically if everyone has been quarantined for 2 weeks and is not sick, it should be fine to have a small party. But there are always those who say they are quarantined but are still going out and about. Or those who are carriers.


----------



## jsg

mikeh-375 said:


> I'm already hearing some sad things about musos struggling and with a government briefing just finished here in the UK saying that new infections are daily, in the thousands, we are clearly in it for the long haul....but hey, apparently I can now invite 6 people around for a barbecue...huh?



As long as you're being discriminating as to who you want to barbecue!


----------



## Gerbil

jsg said:


> As long as you're being discriminating as to who you want to barbecue!


Easy: Dominic Cummings.


----------



## dzilizzi

Also as tests become more widely available, the numbers will go up. As long as the death numbers go down, this isn't a bad thing, per se. 

On a slightly more positive note, one of the vaccines in human testing is showing semi good results in that the antibodies are showing up in blood tests and side effects seem to be minimal. However, they don't have proof having the antibodies actually protects from getting Covid yet. And the human tests are being done in China. So hopefully they aren't under reporting the side effects.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

dzilizzi said:


> As long as the death numbers go down, this isn't a bad thing, per se.


I'll be happy if in the US we can just get the R0 below one. We seem to have hit a plateau.


----------



## jsg

This seems to be the best and most up-to-date site for tracking the virus around the world:








COVID-19 Map - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center


Coronavirus COVID-19 Global Cases by the Center for Systems Science and Engineering (CSSE) at Johns Hopkins University (JHU)




coronavirus.jhu.edu





My state, California, is starting to open up but the fact remains that the curve has not been flattening at all. I'm sure our governor is under extreme pressure to open things up as fast as possible. I wouldn't want his job! In the 1918 flu pandemic, San Francisco, where I live, opened up after the 1st wave hit and then many more people got sick and died. If ever the human species needed patience, self-control and sacrifice for the common good, it is now.


----------



## José Herring

mikeh-375 said:


> I'm already hearing some sad things about musos struggling and with a government briefing just finished here in the UK saying that new infections are daily, in the thousands, we are clearly in it for the long haul....but hey, apparently I can now invite 6 people around for a barbecue...huh?


I hear you. LA is topping the charts on new infections but we're heading into stage 3 of reopening and people are out now like never before. 

If we're reopening now, why in hell did we even close in the first place? It's like our government is saying, "now that covid-19 is at historic highs, let's reopen and see what happens. why you ask?....yeah....the economy".


----------



## José Herring

jsg said:


> This seems to be the best and most up-to-date site for tracking the virus around the world:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Map - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center
> 
> 
> Coronavirus COVID-19 Global Cases by the Center for Systems Science and Engineering (CSSE) at Johns Hopkins University (JHU)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> coronavirus.jhu.edu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My state, California, is starting to open up but the fact remains that the curve has not been flattening at all. I'm sure our governor is under extreme pressure to open things up as fast as possible. I wouldn't want his job! In the 1918 flu pandemic, San Francisco, where I live, opened up after the 1st wave hit and then many more people got sick and died. If ever the human species needed patience, self-control and sacrifice for the common good, it is now.


beat me to it. Insane isn't it?


----------



## MartinH.

josejherring said:


> If we're reopening now, why in hell did we even close in the first place? It's like our government is saying, "now that covid-19 is at historic highs, let's reopen and see what happens. why you ask?....yeah....the economy".



Seems like a bit of a "worst of both worlds" deal. :(


----------



## dzilizzi

I've been watching the numbers in the LA Times. It is mostly California numbers, but it has a breakdown by Southern California cities, which is nice. Only problem is that it is cumulative and doesn't have a graph for the cities. It does for counties though. 









Los Angeles County coronavirus cases: Tracking the outbreak


The latest maps and charts on the spread of COVID-19 in Los Angeles County, including cases, deaths, closures and restrictions.




www.latimes.com


----------



## jsg

josejherring said:


> I hear you. LA is topping the charts on new infections but we're heading into stage 3 of reopening and people are out now like never before.
> 
> If we're reopening now, why in hell did we even close in the first place? It's like our government is saying, "now that covid-19 is at historic highs, let's reopen and see what happens. why you ask?....yeah....the economy".



Neoliberal capitalism will gladly sacrifice as many lives as possible so that billionaires and their corporations can continue to enrich themselves and impoverish everyone else. We all must die so that Wall Street can remain optimistic about the future. Coronavirus has exposed the pre-existing conditions of a very sick society. I watched the leader of New Zealand last night, what an incredible leader she is. They're an island nation of around 5 million people, you know how many people have died from Covid-19? 22. Twenty-two people. When governments are good, they put their citizen's health and safety first. Not like the piece of crap US government that loves to tell us how great and powerful the United States is when it's rapidly becoming a failed state.


----------



## jsg

josejherring said:


> beat me to it. Insane isn't it?



To be expected from a nation that values profit and wealth over people and the planet. Jesus said it's not money which is evil, but rather the love of money and what it does to people. The US government and economy is a textbook example of what happens when the love of money trumps all else. That's why we are afflicted with both a deadly virus and Donald Trump--a double whammy.


----------



## jonathanparham

josejherring said:


> I hear you. LA is topping the charts on new infections but we're heading into stage 3 of reopening and people are out now like never before.
> 
> If we're reopening now, why in hell did we even close in the first place? It's like our government is saying, "now that covid-19 is at historic highs, let's reopen and see what happens. why you ask?....yeah....the economy".


I'm in the other LA. How did yall pass us in deaths? Just two backyards from where I live is a church house that made Newsweek. Five COVID deaths. I could climb two fences and be in the back of their building.


----------



## MaintainLowTone

I work in tech and have worked from home telecommuting for the last 13 years after relocating to the midwest from the Bay Area. Now my whole company is working from home so it's been interesting to see how the company functions with everyone telecommuting. 

Needless to say, it hasn't been a huge issue other than adapting to everyone else working remotely. Slightly more coordination work. 

My County has had only one death and has been really good at contact tracing to keep the number of cases well below 200. Most everything is opened back up in the state @ 50% without a spike so that is a good sign.


----------



## jsg

MaintainLowTone said:


> I work in tech and have worked from home telecommuting for the last 13 years after relocating to the midwest from the Bay Area. Now my whole company is working from home so it's been interesting to see how the company functions with everyone telecommuting.
> 
> Needless to say, it hasn't been a huge issue other than adapting to everyone else working remotely. Slightly more coordination work.
> 
> My County has had only one death and has been really good at contact tracing to keep the number of cases well below 200. Most everything is opened back up in the state @ 50% without a spike so that is a good sign.


What country do you live in? Wow, only one death--you must have a decent government that actually is competent and responsive to the plight of its citizens. Here in the US, we have about 5% of the world's population and around 30% of Covid-19 cases.


----------



## MaintainLowTone

jsg said:


> What country do you live in? Wow, only one death--you must have a decent government that actually is competent and responsive to the plight of its citizens. Here in the US, we have about 5% of the world's population and around 30% of Covid-19 cases.



I think you misread my county as country as I am in the US. My county has roughly 100,000 population. So you can see that one size does not fit all for characterizing the US.

If you go to the NYT github database you can see every state's and every county's cumulative case count and death count by day since the beginning.

NYT Covid Database. It's very useful to see where the curve is decreasing (NY) and increasing (CA).


----------



## jsg

Oops, sorry. I misread "county" as "country"! San Francisco, where I live, has had about 43 deaths so far, so not nearly as bad as Southern California or NY....


----------



## Terry93D

I probably will not be going to college this year. My learning to drive has also been slowed, and I don't know when I'll be able to get a license.


----------



## jsg

Terry93D said:


> I probably will not be going to college this year. My learning to drive has also been slowed, and I don't know when I'll be able to get a license.



Sorry to hear that. Continue to learn as best you can by reading books and seeking out what you want to learn.


----------



## ryst

jsg said:


> Neoliberal capitalism will gladly sacrifice as many lives as possible so that billionaires and their corporations can continue to enrich themselves and impoverish everyone else. We all must die so that Wall Street can remain optimistic about the future.



From what I understand, billionaires made over $430 billion dollars DURING the shutdown. https://www.businessinsider.com/us-billionaires-434-billion-richer-during-pandemic-report-2020-5

To say "_Neoliberal capitalism will gladly sacrifice as many lives as possible_" doesn't make sense to me when they made $430 billion during the shutdown when the shutdown was supposed to "save lives". I'm not trying to argue for or against capitalism, btw. Just pointing out that the billionaires did really well with things being shutdown so I don't agree with your statement.


----------



## jsg

ryst said:


> From what I understand, billionaires made over $430 billion dollars DURING the shutdown. https://www.businessinsider.com/us-billionaires-434-billion-richer-during-pandemic-report-2020-5
> 
> To say "_Neoliberal capitalism will gladly sacrifice as many lives as possible_" doesn't make sense to me when they made $430 billion during the shutdown when the shutdown was supposed to "save lives". I'm not trying to argue for or against capitalism, btw. Just pointing out that the billionaires did really well with things being shutdown so I don't agree with your statement.



And the men and women who work at the meat packing plants? The ones who are getting sick who work at grocery stores? And the states opening up that are doing so for economic reasons rather than what health experts are advising? The packed airlines where every seat is sold and people not required to keep their masks on? Elon Musk defying county orders to keep his car factory shut down for a little while longer?


----------



## jsg

My last question to you is who is paying the cost so the billionaires can continue making so much money during a major pandemic?


----------



## ryst

Billionaires did really well with things being shutdown. Eric Yuan, Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer, Mark Zuckerberg, Larry Ellison.....all did well while things were shut down. 

A ton of people stayed inside and didn't die while the people I listed above got that much richer because a ton of people purchased their products and services. Doesn't look like those billionaires were begging for the government to stop the shutdowns. 

_"Neoliberal capitalism will gladly sacrifice as many lives as possible so that billionaires and their corporations can continue to enrich themselves and impoverish everyone else. We all must die so that Wall Street can remain optimistic about the future."_

Seems like the rich are getting richer regardless of who is dying or not.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

ryst said:


> A ton of people stayed inside and didn't die while the people I listed above got that much richer because a ton of people purchased their products and services.



Is that what happened? For some odd reason - namely that I read news - I'm more inclined to believe there was white-collar looting (as well as bailouts, which is why the stock market is up).

I shouldn't post here, because supposedly politics is separate from reality, but this is unsustainable.


----------



## jsg

And their employees? All the people working at the Amazon fulfillment centers are being treated well and paid well? Bezos took away their 2 dollar an hour hazard pay recently. Neoliberalism and the form of capitalism that expresses its ideology is essentially destroying many of the ecosystems of the natural world, including huge amounts of ice in Greenland and the Arctic Circle. It's a free-for-all for every last drop of oil and every last ounce of minerals and other resources all for the profit motive. It's way out of balance. There's no limits, no wisdom and no restraint or respect for the natural world and the millions of species that inhabit it. There is a better way...


----------



## ryst

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Is that what happened? For some odd reason - namely that I read news - I'm more inclined to believe there was white-collar looting (as well as bailouts, which is why the stock market is up).



I guess I'm confused. How did Eric Yuan, Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer, Mark Zuckerberg, Larry Ellison, make billions of more dollars during the shutdown?


----------



## jsg

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Is that what happened? For some odd reason - namely that I read news - I'm more inclined to believe there was white-collar looting (as well as bailouts, which is why the stock market is up).
> 
> I shouldn't post here, because supposedly politics is separate from reality, but this is unsustainable.


We may not be into politics but we can be damn sure that politics is into us...


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

We should move this to the OT Politics section, because this is the no-arguing zone.


----------



## ryst

jsg said:


> And their employees? All the people working at the Amazon fulfillment centers are being treated well and paid well? Bezos took away their 2 dollar an hour hazard pay recently. Neoliberalism and the form of capitalism that expresses its ideology is essentially destroying many of the ecosystems of the natural world, including huge amounts of ice in Greenland and the Arctic Circle. It's a free-for-all for every last drop of oil and every last ounce of minerals and other resources all for the profit motive. It's way out of balance. There's no limits, no wisdom and no restraint or respect for the natural world and the millions of species that inhabit it. There is a better way...



To be clear, I'm not defending this amount of money being made by these billionaires. It concerns me very much that they made so much while a ton of people lost their jobs and lives. But the government shutdowns (among other things) made the rich richer and the poor, poorer. The reason i disagree with your original statement is because the billionaires made money during the shutdowns. They aren't "_sacrifice as many lives as possible so that billionaires and their corporations can continue to enrich themselves and impoverish everyone else._". They are profiting off of the ones who are still alive and staying home from the shut down. 

Maybe you didn't mean "_sacrifice as many lives as possible_" in the literal sense but that's how it read to me. If I misunderstood, my apologies.


----------



## jsg

Nick Batzdorf said:


> We should move this to the OT Politics section, because this is the no-arguing zone.



Can't argue with that!


----------



## jsg

ryst said:


> To be clear, I'm not defending this amount of money being made by these billionaires. It concerns me very much that they made so much while a ton of people lost their jobs and lives. But the government shutdowns (among other things) made the rich richer and the poor, poorer. The reason i disagree with your original statement is because the billionaires made money during the shutdowns. They aren't "_sacrifice as many lives as possible so that billionaires and their corporations can continue to enrich themselves and impoverish everyone else._". They are profiting off of the ones who are still alive and staying home from the shut down.
> 
> Maybe you didn't mean "_sacrifice as many lives as possible_" in the literal sense but that's how it read to me. If I misunderstood, my apologies.



I was probably writing in a blend of literal and metaphorical... But you're right, Naomi Kline, in her book Disaster Capitalism, writes about how billionaires find a way to make money in any kind of disaster, be it man-made or natural. OK , we have to stop or move it over to politics.

Let's return to how Covid-19 is affecting us personally....


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

This sounds like it could be a big deal:









Asymptomatic spread of coronavirus is 'very rare,' WHO says


Government responses should focus on detecting and isolating infected people with symptoms, said the WHO's Dr. Maria Van Kerkhove.




www.cnbc.com


----------



## jsg

Nick Batzdorf said:


> This sounds like it could be a big deal:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asymptomatic spread of coronavirus is 'very rare,' WHO says
> 
> 
> Government responses should focus on detecting and isolating infected people with symptoms, said the WHO's Dr. Maria Van Kerkhove.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com



This may be true. But in California the number of infections is rising, and not just because of increased number of people getting tested. As we become more relaxed and let our guard down, the virus will probably reappear. I see people without masks fairly frequently. Today I had to go to a nearby small grocery store and both men who own the store had masks, but they were down on their necks, as useful as not wearing a mask at all..


----------



## jsg

Nick Batzdorf said:


> This sounds like it could be a big deal:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asymptomatic spread of coronavirus is 'very rare,' WHO says
> 
> 
> Government responses should focus on detecting and isolating infected people with symptoms, said the WHO's Dr. Maria Van Kerkhove.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com



This may be true. But in California the number of infections is rising, and not just because of increased number of people getting tested. As we become more relaxed and let our guard down, the virus will probably reappear. I see people without masks fairly frequently. Today I had to go to a nearby small grocery store and both men who own the store had masks, but they were down on their necks, as useful as not wearing a mask at all. I don't particularly like wearing a mask, but I do because it protects me, it protects the people I interact with and when we all make such a small sacrifice, the infection rate has a good chance of diminishing.


----------



## markleake

Nick Batzdorf said:


> This sounds like it could be a big deal:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asymptomatic spread of coronavirus is 'very rare,' WHO says
> 
> 
> Government responses should focus on detecting and isolating infected people with symptoms, said the WHO's Dr. Maria Van Kerkhove.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com


Just be aware that this article has already been criticised for being a bit misleading.

Probably the WHO is meaning that asymptomatic people rarely spread the virus, NOT pre-symptomatic people. Pre-symptomatic people who go on to develop the disease may well be able to spread it while not yet showing symptoms.

There's a big difference between the two, and the WHO is being criticised for not communicating clearly if this is what they actually mean. The article title is also problematic.


----------



## Kony

Nick Batzdorf said:


> This sounds like it could be a big deal:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asymptomatic spread of coronavirus is 'very rare,' WHO says
> 
> 
> Government responses should focus on detecting and isolating infected people with symptoms, said the WHO's Dr. Maria Van Kerkhove.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com


Qualifier reporting from The Guardian:


Dr Ashish Jha, the director of the Harvard Global Health Institute, and professor Carl Bergstrom, an infectious disease expert at the University of Washington, made similar points. The upshot, both experts suggested: there’s a difference between people who are “truly asymptomatic”, meaning that they would test positive for Covid-19 but never develop any symptoms of the disease, and people who are “pre-symptomatic”, meaning that they haven’t developed symptoms yet, but will in a few days.


Both experts said they think the WHO was referring only to “truly asymptomatic people”, and suggesting that those people rarely spread the disease.


But that second category of people, the ones who still feel fine but are actually infected and can pass on the virus to other people, are a major reason why the public should wear masks even when they feel fine, the experts said.


----------



## dzilizzi

That is actually good news as far as the vaccine goes. They were saying they were having success with minimal side effects but couldn't tell if it actually made people immune to the disease. So if the vaccine basically makes you an asymptomatic person, it is less likely you will get the disease, based on what they are saying here. 

I'm not actually saying this is true, but it sounds like fully asymptomatic people are naturally immune to me. 

As far as California goes, all these idiots on TV? half don't wear masks and they are standing on top of one another. I don't disagree with the reasons for the protest, just that they are doing it during a pandemic. Just in my neighborhood, there have been large parties in the last month and a half when we were all supposed to be in quarantine. I have 2 neighbors who do daycare. I'm not going say anything about this because the parents may be essential workers. But none are wearing masks when they come drop off kids. And I admit, I don't wear one when I walk over to the central mail box half a block away. But I always go when no one is around.


----------



## jsg

dzilizzi said:


> That is actually good news as far as the vaccine goes. They were saying they were having success with minimal side effects but couldn't tell if it actually made people immune to the disease. So if the vaccine basically makes you an asymptomatic person, it is less likely you will get the disease, based on what they are saying here.
> 
> I'm not actually saying this is true, but it sounds like fully asymptomatic people are naturally immune to me.
> 
> As far as California goes, all these idiots on TV? half don't wear masks and they are standing on top of one another. I don't disagree with the reasons for the protest, just that they are doing it during a pandemic. Just in my neighborhood, there have been large parties in the last month and a half when we were all supposed to be in quarantine. I have 2 neighbors who do daycare. I'm not going say anything about this because the parents may be essential workers. But none are wearing masks when they come drop off kids. And I admit, I don't wear one when I walk over to the central mail box half a block away. But I always go when no one is around.


It's now apparently known that a person is much more likely to get infected indoors. I always wear a mask out in the neighborhood because there are lots of people around. But if I'm not near anyone while I am sitting in the park, I'll remove it for a few minutes.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

dzilizzi said:


> As far as California goes, all these idiots on TV?



Those "idiots on TV" are all over the country, in small towns and large cities, and all around the world - London, Rome, Paris, Berlin, Australia...


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

jsg said:


> But in California the number of infections is rising, and not just because of increased number of people getting tested.



How do you know it's not just because of the increased testing, if I may ask?

In L.A. Country it's been rising, and that was one of the questions I asked the Dept. of Public Health - whether it was because of testing (I also asked whether the total number of cases included people who had recovered).

They didn't give me an answer, just copy and past some crap to questions I didn't ask.

In any case, the death rate has been relatively constant here.


----------



## jsg

Nick Batzdorf said:


> How do you know it's not just because of the increased testing, if I may ask?
> 
> In L.A. Country it's been rising, and that was one of the questions I asked the Dept. of Public Health - whether it was because of testing (I also asked whether the total number of cases included people who had recovered).
> 
> They didn't give me an answer, just copy and past some crap to questions I didn't ask.
> 
> In any case, the death rate has been relatively constant here.



It's partly due to increased testing, but also due to people congregating both indoors and outdoors (probably far more likely with the former) without masks. I was tested, for example a few weeks ago and tested negative. Everyone who is tested does not have the virus, so although increased testing will definitely reveal an increase in the number of people infected, many are testing negative and also many who are not tested are still passing the virus around while being pre-symptomatic. Even if a person tests negative and is without the virus, that could change in an hour if somebody who is infected passes it on, often unknowingly. 

I rely on this site, which I assume has pretty good and certainly up-to-date information on infection and death rates:









COVID-19 Map - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center


Coronavirus COVID-19 Global Cases by the Center for Systems Science and Engineering (CSSE) at Johns Hopkins University (JHU)




coronavirus.jhu.edu


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

I've been tracking this. Average number of new cases in L.A. County:

5/11 - 18: 877
5/19 - 25: 1179
5/31 - 6/6: 1264

Yesterday there were 800, so maybe that's good news and maybe that's an outlier.


----------



## jsg

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I've been tracking this. Average number of new cases in L.A. County:
> 
> 5/11 - 18: 877
> 5/19 - 25: 1179
> 5/31 - 6/6: 1264
> 
> Yesterday there were 800, so maybe that's good news and maybe that's an outlier.



We've been pretty lucky in San Francisco as the total number of deaths are 43 and less than 3000 infections. But world wide is another matter. India, Brazil and Russia are all seeing case numbers rise.


----------



## Stringtree

jsg said:


> It's now apparently known that a person is much more likely to get infected indoors. I always wear a mask out in the neighborhood because there are lots of people around. But if I'm not near anyone while I am sitting in the park, I'll remove it for a few minutes.



This is probably true. It's infuriating that businesses are given a pass to conduct medical theater and do very little to mitigate the effects of shitty environmental management. "Employees are required to take their temperature prior to the workday." Plastic shields and cloth masks. 

K-19 The Widowmaker.

Systems that recirculate chilled air this summer will do more to spread this disease than any open space with adequate ventilation. Entrenched old curmudgeons who checked out years ago and sit on their asses all day waiting for retirement will do more harm by not stepping up and improving HVAC in large facilities. 

The fact is they can't. Nobody in positions of power will listen to anything they say. Lack of funds will dictate the behavior of these technicians. Why bother when it's good enough? Stalemate. The invisible killer will be joined by several others that have been lurking in dormant buildings.

Really good filters are expensive. No go. Really good planning takes communication between levels within organizations. No go. At the moment, the cheapest solutions like boxes of rubber gloves and cheap masks are seen as solutions that cover the bases. What is visible is most important.

The bullshit of haughty stakeholders greedily gripping their steaks while people disappear will eventually reveal the insanity of treating people like populations of animals to be exploited. 

Once people gather within legacy communal spaces with old-style systems of moving recirculated chilled air, the experiment will commence, with unwitting human subjects and dummies that serve as extreme ends of the exposure curve, partying and snogging, insisting this is a hoax. 

So many dynamics are at play. I hope I'm wrong. 

Stupid masks don't work, unless every person in the local environment is wearing one. It's come down to angels and profligates. 

Which am I? That's all I can worry about.


----------



## dzilizzi

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Those "idiots on TV" are all over the country, in small towns and large cities, and all around the world - London, Rome, Paris, Berlin, Australia...


This is true. I'm mostly calling the ones idiots that don't wear a mask and are shouting in protest. Shouting is similar to singing. You spew a lot of stuff out when you use your diaphragm to speak/yell/sing. Plus they are marching, which is exercise, and tends to cause diaphragmatic breathing. One of the first groups in Washington state to get sick was a choir that decided to meet for practice despite the potential for spreading the disease. Most of them got sick. 

And wearing a mask only helps if everyone is wearing it.


----------



## Stringtree

dzilizzi, everything you wrote is in consonance with what I've read. 

I am particularly concerned because I will have to work with vocal groups or quit. 

It's not droplets, like a child can understand. It's aeresols, which mist and distribute through systems of heating and cooling within enclosed spaces.


----------



## jsg

Stringtree said:


> This is probably true. It's infuriating that businesses are given a pass to conduct medical theater and do very little to mitigate the effects of shitty environmental management. "Employees are required to take their temperature prior to the workday." Plastic shields and cloth masks.
> 
> K-19 The Widowmaker.
> 
> Systems that recirculate chilled air this summer will do more to spread this disease than any open space with adequate ventilation. Entrenched old curmudgeons who checked out years ago and sit on their asses all day waiting for retirement will do more harm by not stepping up and improving HVAC in large facilities.
> 
> The fact is they can't. Nobody in positions of power will listen to anything they say. Lack of funds will dictate the behavior of these technicians. Why bother when it's good enough? Stalemate. The invisible killer will be joined by several others that have been lurking in dormant buildings.
> 
> Really good filters are expensive. No go. Really good planning takes communication between levels within organizations. No go. At the moment, the cheapest solutions like boxes of rubber gloves and cheap masks are seen as solutions that cover the bases. What is visible is most important.
> 
> The bullshit of haughty stakeholders greedily gripping their steaks while people disappear will eventually reveal the insanity of treating people like populations of animals to be exploited.
> 
> Once people gather within legacy communal spaces with old-style systems of moving recirculated chilled air, the experiment will commence, with unwitting human subjects and dummies that serve as extreme ends of the exposure curve, partying and snogging, insisting this is a hoax.
> 
> So many dynamics are at play. I hope I'm wrong.
> 
> Stupid masks don't work, unless every person in the local environment is wearing one. It's come down to angels and profligates.
> 
> Which am I? That's all I can worry about.



If masks don't work why have doctors, nurses, surgeons and dentists been wearing them for decades if not centuries? They may not be 100% perfect, but if someone coughs and is wearing a mask it will certainly help reduce the spread of particles.
And same for the person wearing one--it can reduce the chances of getting enough virus to cause an infection.


----------



## Stringtree

With this, it comes down to mutual cooperation. The efficacy of masks diminishes as fewer people cooperate. 

Don't take it as I've dismissed masks. Not at all. But the overall efficacy decreases as people say "no" and there's more stuff in the air.

I fully support mask wearing for this awful time.


----------



## dzilizzi

Stringtree said:


> dzilizzi, everything you wrote is in consonance with what I've read.
> 
> I am particularly concerned because I will have to work with vocal groups or quit.
> 
> It's not droplets, like a child can understand. It's aeresols, which mist and distribute through systems of heating and cooling within enclosed spaces.


If every one has been properly in quarantine and is not sick, initially, it should be okay. But as people start getting out and about, you take the chance that someone has been exposed but does not yet have the symptoms getting everyone sick. Can they use a bigger room with more mics? Let everyone spread out more?

My husband is starting back to work this week and is concerned. He has coworkers who will come in sick because they are contractors and don't get much sick leave. They would have my husband stay home because he has other health issues that put him at risk, but he is the main knowledge guy for the equipment he works on. Most of the others have retired.


----------



## jsg

Look at a country like New Zealand. Because they have excellent leadership and a government that actually is functional and cares about their citizenry, they've gotten their infection rate down to zero, I read today. Obviously, masks alone won't be the defining factor, there are so many others. I just went out for coffee (I drink about 1 cup every few months but was craving the taste) and everyone at the coffee shop was wearing masks. Should I be fearful that there may have been some virus on the cup or the lid? If I get that crazy I have to remind myself that being 69 years old, something is going to get me whether it be Covid-19, cancer, a stroke, a heart-attack, or just having to watch Trump and his fascist sycophants try and destroy our nation. 

There's a Buddhist saying, "The cause of death is birth".


----------



## Stringtree

jsg has valid concerns. So do you and your husband. So do I. 

The ones we listen to do as well, hopefully the best medical information sources we can find.

What I've seen is that people everywhere, at the grocery store, on the street, in frivolous proximity to other human beings, have grown tired of strictures.

Okay, that's cool. It's human nature. 

All the magnetic distancing via opposite magnetic charges has turned into job-related shouting into ears, close quartering, a total dismissal of what was deemed necessary for dealing with a serious pandemic. 

So is it over? Can I get some sunscreen? What remains is bullshit protections for businesses that chart a liability defense in case of worker injury or death. Sweet. Yeah, I really wanna work for you. 

Gloves and a mask were provided. We told you to pee six feet away from your coworker. 

Awesome. Thanks, guys. 

"He was a good man. His employer did the best that could be afforded an angel like this."


----------



## jsg

People who won't wear masks are not willing to make a small sacrifice for the common good. American society's values are showing and they're not pretty.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

What I'm worried about is that there's going to be another big rise, especially with the demonstrations. And one party in this country has no appetite for shutting down again, so lots of people and the economy will get killed.

Hopefully that won't happen, but it does worry me.


----------



## jsg

Nick Batzdorf said:


> What I'm worried about is that there's going to be another big rise, especially with the demonstrations. And one party in this country has no appetite for shutting down again, so lots of people and the economy will get killed.
> 
> Hopefully that won't happen, but it does worry me.



The next 5 months are going to be turbulent, no doubt. There's so much good about human beings, so much that is noble and progressive and loving. Then there is our darkness, the prejudice, fear, greed, intolerance. We are such an unfinished species, evolution isn't done with us and has basically given us the freedom (and terror) to evolve as individuals and societies. The 21st century is not going to be a gentle one, but much can change if we really embrace the highest values and live by them to the best of our ability.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

The next five months, most likely the two after that, and if it's longer than that we may as well kiss our asses goodbye or move to another continent.


----------



## Kony

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The next five months, most likely the two after that


Hopefully by the end of the year we will have a cocktail of antivirals which will minimise the effects and reduce the fatality rate. I've read that a successful cocktail of antivirals could hopefully reduce the fatality rate from 1% down to 0.1% - trials are currently underway with antivirals already in use but being repurposed for this crisis. Fingers crossed!


----------



## jsg

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The next five months, most likely the two after that, and if it's longer than that we may as well kiss our asses goodbye or move to another continent.



Polls, as far as they can be trusted, which isn't much, at least are showing Trump losing support all over the place. He's going to get even more paranoid and desperate as the country unravels from Covid, unemployment, social unrest and just a general feeling that this guy is the most toxic creature to ever occupy the White House. 5 generals denounced him in the past several days, this is a good sign. I think when people realize they've been bamboozled and conned by a master con-man like Trump, they feel a sense of shame, who wouldn't? For those that can handle confronting their shame, when they go into the voting booth privately, or vote by mail at home, privately, they may very well not vote for him again. No one can predict the future completely in regard to complex situations and their outcomes, and since we can't, I see no reason not to have at least some hope.


----------



## Stringtree

What would this virus and this USA sound like? Wow, we had House of Cards for a second before the awful judicial hammer fell on my favorite actor for some terrible stuff. 

The score? Jeff Beal, yay. What a knight on the chessboard. Calculated and awful dissonance. A beautiful and terrifying result of personal harmony.

So the Actual House of Cards is taking place, just in a way I never expected.

Would you dedicate, consecrate, hallow this presidency? This is cringe-TV. 

2020 is just wrong. The dissonance is so right. 

I'm never going to be the same. That thing Mr. Beal wrote will never fail to make every hair stand up and signal the entrance of the President and his horrifying coterie. 

The trumpet. That sound across our hills means the dam has been breached. Run!!!!

Wow.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Jeff Beale's music for House of Cards is SO great.


----------



## jsg

Shutdowns stopped 60 million infections in U.S.:








Shutdowns Stopped 60 Million COVID-19 Infections in the U.S., New Research Finds


A new study has confirmed the efficacy of wide-scale shutdowns and restrictive social distancing measures to contain the outbreak of the novel coronavirus that leads to COVID-19. Government ordered shutdowns of industry and schools stopped 530 million new COVID-19 cases in just six countries...




www.ecowatch.com


----------



## NYC Composer

jsg said:


> Look at a country like New Zealand. Because they have excellent leadership and a government that actually is functional and cares about their citizenry, they've gotten their infection rate down to zero, I read today. Obviously, masks alone won't be the defining factor, there are so many others. I just went out for coffee (I drink about 1 cup every few months but was craving the taste) and everyone at the coffee shop was wearing masks. Should I be fearful that there may have been some virus on the cup or the lid? If I get that crazy I have to remind myself that being 69 years old, something is going to get me whether it be Covid-19, cancer, a stroke, a heart-attack, or just having to watch Trump and his fascist sycophants try and destroy our nation.
> 
> There's a Buddhist saying, "The cause of death is birth".


I’ll be 66 in August. I’m diabetic and hypertensive.

I don’t fear dying but if I expire because of moronic and empathy challenged asshats who refuse to wear masks, it’s gonna piss me off. I might want me some payback, have somebody push me around in a wheelchair so I can spew my death rattle COVID at non-mask wearers.


----------



## MauroPantin

jsg said:


> Look at a country like New Zealand. Because they have excellent leadership and a government that actually is functional and cares about their citizenry, they've gotten their infection rate down to zero, I read today. Obviously, masks alone won't be the defining factor, there are so many others. I just went out for coffee (I drink about 1 cup every few months but was craving the taste) and everyone at the coffee shop was wearing masks. Should I be fearful that there may have been some virus on the cup or the lid? If I get that crazy I have to remind myself that being 69 years old, something is going to get me whether it be Covid-19, cancer, a stroke, a heart-attack, or just having to watch Trump and his fascist sycophants try and destroy our nation.
> 
> There's a Buddhist saying, "The cause of death is birth".



While true, it is worth pointing out that NZ is an island, and not a travel hub in terms of connecting flights, etc. It is easier to keep tight control over its borders. Iceland is in a similar situation and has 3 active cases right now. I'm not refuting that their government did an amazing job because what you are saying is absolutely true. You can certainly find examples of other islands in which controlling COVID was not a success, so it is not the only factor, but I think it is a major one.


----------



## Kony

MauroPantin said:


> While true, it is worth pointing out that NZ is an island, and not a travel hub in terms of connecting flights, etc. It is easier to keep tight control over its borders. Iceland is in a similar situation and has 3 active cases right now. I'm not refuting that their government did an amazing job because what you are saying is absolutely true. You can certainly find examples of other islands in which controlling COVID was not a success, so it is not the only factor, but I think it is a major one.


I think the main contributing factor for New Zealand's success was going into lockdown early - that, plus constant community engagement from Jacinda Ardern to get everyone onboard with following the lockdown. Most of the other world leaders were sending out mixed messages or the wrong message so people were more likely to cheat or ignore their lockdowns and contribute to the spread.


----------



## toomanynotes

It's been a benefit if anything else, more time to learn, study software and music!


----------



## dzilizzi

NYC Composer said:


> I’ll be 66 in August. I’m diabetic and hypertensive.
> 
> I don’t fear dying but if I expire because of moronic and empathy challenged asshats who refuse to wear masks, it’s gonna piss me off. I might want me some payback, have somebody push me around in a wheelchair so I can spew my death rattle COVID at non-mask wearers.


Come back and haunt them all! 👻


----------



## dcoscina

I've been working remotely for the music store in customer service and online sales support. Honestly, it's been great. No more 2 hour round trip drive to the store, no more annoying customers in my face (just on-line), I have my dogs sleeping by my side all day and I can listen to any music I want like Daphnis et Chloe or the re-mastered released of Ennio Morricone's The Thing (Quartet records, highly recommended btw). Yeah, being stuck at home all of the time can get a bit grating but it's just me and my wife and our 2 dogs in a 2400 square foot house so we don't suffer from cabin fever...


----------



## jsg

MauroPantin said:


> While true, it is worth pointing out that NZ is an island, and not a travel hub in terms of connecting flights, etc. It is easier to keep tight control over its borders. Iceland is in a similar situation and has 3 active cases right now. I'm not refuting that their government did an amazing job because what you are saying is absolutely true. You can certainly find examples of other islands in which controlling COVID was not a success, so it is not the only factor, but I think it is a major one.



All true. NZ also has a population of around 5 million people and probably the dominant paradigm isn't "rugged individualism".


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

jsg said:


> Shutdowns stopped 60 million infections in U.S.:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shutdowns Stopped 60 Million COVID-19 Infections in the U.S., New Research Finds
> 
> 
> A new study has confirmed the efficacy of wide-scale shutdowns and restrictive social distancing measures to contain the outbreak of the novel coronavirus that leads to COVID-19. Government ordered shutdowns of industry and schools stopped 530 million new COVID-19 cases in just six countries...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ecowatch.com



And prevented *500 million* deaths so far, according to a talking head I heard last night.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

She was talking about COViD, and that was worldwide.

But you know what they say about statistics, especially when they're counterfactual.


----------



## MartinH.

Kony said:


> I think the main contributing factor for New Zealand's success was going into lockdown early - that, plus constant community engagement from Jacinda Ardern to get everyone onboard with following the lockdown. Most of the other world leaders were sending out mixed messages or the wrong message so people were more likely to cheat or ignore their lockdowns and contribute to the spread.


I don't know anyone from New Zealand, but maybe the population there and in Iceland acts smarter too? I don't think leadership can take _all _the credit.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> And prevented *500 million* deaths so far, according to a talking head I heard last night.



That would be about 1/16th of the world population. Seems like a completely ridiculous overestimation to me.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

MartinH. said:


> That would be about 1/16th of the world population. Seems like a completely ridiculous overestimation to me.



She said half a billion. Maybe she meant million. Either way...


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

MartinH. said:


> I don't know anyone from New Zealand, but maybe the population there and in Iceland acts smarter too? I don't think leadership can take _all _the credit.



People are the same everywhere and have been throughout history, although we do have a lot more morons in the U.S. because we're a larger country.

Estimates are that 2/3 of the deaths in this country would have been prevented if we'd shut down two weeks earlier.

Unlike the deaths, that's not something I heard a talking head say, it was a widely reported study.


----------



## Kony

MartinH. said:


> I don't think leadership can take _all _the credit.


That's why I also said "going into lockdown early". So not all the credit, but leadership combined with early lockdown.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

dzilizzi said:


> There isn't 500 million people in the US, so that would really not have made sense



There are over 7 billion people in the world, and this is a worldwide virus.

But you have to be very careful just saying "they make up numbers." I've seen you post similarly unfounded things about complete bullshit political conspiracies (saying they're equivalent to actual heinous crimes against our country), so yeah, this isn't out of the blue.


----------



## dzilizzi

Nick Batzdorf said:


> There are over 7 billion people in the world, and this is a worldwide virus.
> 
> But you have to be very careful just saying "they make up numbers." I've seen you post similarly unfounded things about complete bullshit political conspiracies (saying they're equivalent to actual heinous crimes against our country), so yeah, this isn't out of the blue.


You are probably right because I see you know it all. I will leave this thread to you now....


----------



## MartinH.

Nick Batzdorf said:


> She said half a billion. Maybe she meant million. Either way...





Nick Batzdorf said:


> Estimates are that 2/3 of the deaths in this country would have been prevented if we'd shut down two weeks earlier.
> 
> Unlike the deaths, that's not something I heard a talking head say, it was a widely reported study.



I just realized that what I said wasn't exactly clear on where I stand. I didn't mean to imply that the preventive measures were disproportionate. I meant that making wildly exaggerated claims about how well they worked weakens the credibility of those in favor of the preventive measures.


The million/billion error is easy to make, that was probably it. Thanks for clarifying.


----------



## Rory

How's my life been affected?

I've been filming and recording sound. Here's my friend Q, wearing a very fashionable mask, getting ready to record cheering for first responders. My sound house is being super about rentals during the pandemic, which is the only reason that I can afford to enjoy Q's company:








And here's my moving picture taker:


----------



## Rory

Further to the above post, this is what Q loooks like when he isn't wearing a mask and protection for his delicate ears. His ears act like funnels and are very sensitive to breezes:


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

dzilizzi said:


> You are probably right because I see you know it all. I will leave this thread to you now....



Of course I know it all, but I was upset about the election theft in Georgia when I posted and shouldn't snarl at people. My apologies.


----------



## Tim_Wells

Scott Gottlieb, former head of the FDA believes it will likely get much worse. He doesn't think the public nor businesses will go for another full blown shutdown. So that means other extreme measures, such as mandatory mask wearing, heavy testing, and quarantine for those with the virus. All things we should be doing right now. 

Gottlieb actually served in the Trump admin, but appears to be non-partisan when it comes to the virus.


----------



## thov72

guys, I seldom visit this page anymore. I let you have your discussions and be at peace.
Just in CASE you are frightened by the numbers, I urge you to watch no more news. Please check instead euromomo.eu for exact death rates in Europe--which , I presume preposterously, transfers to other countries.
Compare deaths to the last years. This year´s deaths of course include Covid-19 deaths, but also "collateral deaths", i.e. also deaths from increasing depression due to lockdown, postponed surgery due to hospitals being focused on Covid-19/ people who fear they are getting infected when visiting a hospital etc. God bless you, my fellow composers!!


----------



## Diablo IV

thov72 said:


> euromomo.com



euromomo.EU


----------



## thov72

Diablo3 said:


> euromomo.EU


thank you, my fault!! corrected it.


----------



## Eloy

Pandemic - different view:

I compose at night (view posts here at vi-control) and during the day, own and am a swimming pool builder in LA. We have not stopped working since the pandemic has started in the US. Demand for backyard entertainment has never been higher. My excavation,steel, plumbing,electrical, Gunite, mason, plaster and start up crews (that is about 100 men) have been working non-stop. Not one single worker of family member has been sick and my men have feed their families. I thank the Lord each day and pray for my men. Eloy


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

It makes sense that people would want pools right now.

I read that exercise bikes and bikes are selling out. Our fitness trainer is doing very well using Zoom, with much lower overhead than when she had to pay rental to a gym.


----------



## jsg

When I think of how lucky I and many others have been during this pandemic, I read something like this and realize the severity of Covid-19:









Woman on the brink of death receives first known double lung transplant due to COVID-19 in US


Gravely ill woman receives first known double lung transplant because of COVID-19 in U.S.




www.chicagotribune.com


----------



## NYC Composer

dzilizzi said:


> Come back and haunt them all! 👻


You know I will lizzi! 😉


----------



## Mukkenerd

Had to cancel my vaction in france/bretagne, that was a bummer. I am lucky to live in a city where there is nearly no infections going on. Since i am a loner kind of guy, it didn`t change much for me other than excessively washing my hands like there is no tommorow^^.


----------



## JJP

I'm starting to desperately miss my colleagues. I work with some wonderful and talented people, and a big part of why I became a musician is because I love the collaborative aspect of it. There's nothing like gathering a group of highly-skilled people in a room, doing great work together, and enjoying it.

@poetd I too am tired of video conferences. I'm just as happy to be on the phone where I can walk around the room while thinking and don't have to care how I appear. I have one colleague who now wants every meeting to be a video chat, even conference calls that used to be on the phone before. There are reasons why we didn't adopt video phones in the 1970s when the technology was set to be deployed in the USA. People didn't want to be bothered about their appearance whenever they answered the phone.

Plus video conferences can be more stressful than in-person. If we meet in person, I don't have half a dozen people or more staring directly at me from a distance of 1 meter or less! Also at an in-person meeting you can look down or look around and it doesn't appear you are not paying attention. In normal conversation a group of people can't sit that close and certainly don't stare directly at each other the entire time.

On the other hand, small video conferences with friends have been delightful. It's reassuring to see other people's faces and to connect visually. However, with these people there isn't a big concern about how we are being perceived.


----------



## Stringtree

poetd said:


> During lockdown I have developed a severe allergy to Online Meeting Invites.
> 
> Never in the history of mankind have so many got together so often to achieve so little.





* “A committee is a cul-de-sac down which ideas are lured and then quietly strangled.” *

― Barnett Cocks 



Well put, @poetd. I also sympathize with JJP. Depends largely upon your collaborators.


----------



## MartinH.

This graph is interesting because it color codes the percentage of positive tests in different countries over time:









COVID-19 Data Explorer


Research and data to make progress against the world’s largest problems




ourworldindata.org


----------



## Rory

My partner was traveling around town today (New York) and thinks that Wave II is not just a serious prospect, but a probability. In our own neighbourhood, a lot of people seem to have decided that wearing a cheap mask confers immunity, and many people have stopped wearing masks and respecting physical distance altogether. This is a bit surprising, given that we are in the worst hit borough in the worst hit city in the country.

The current New York City Covid-19 death toll is 17,600. The number of confirmed cases, but recovered, is 213,000.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Stringtree said:


> * “A committee is a cul-de-sac down which ideas are lured and then quietly strangled.” *
> 
> ― Barnett Cocks
> 
> 
> 
> Well put, @poetd. I also sympathize with JJP. Depends largely upon your collaborators.



Ayn Rand said similar things - not that she's a hero by any stretch!


----------



## jsg

6.7 thousand new cases yesterday alone in California. the EU is closing borders to Americans because of our government's disastrous response to the pandemic...

This thing is far from over, unfortunately. The more aggressive we are about pretending things are going back to normal the more people are going to get sick and the more are going to die. 

I am sick of being home so much but I'll be a lot sicker if I get COVID-19...


----------



## Rory

jsg said:


> 6.7 thousand new cases yesterday alone in California. the EU is closing borders to Americans because of our government's disastrous response to the pandemic...



And the extension of the ban on U.S./Canada non-essential travel is at Canada's insistence for the same reason, notwithstanding the Department of Homeland Security's hilarious attempt at spin: https://www.dhs.gov/news/2020/06/16/fact-sheet-dhs-measures-border-limit-further-spread-coronavirus

As someone who has homes in both countries, I know that Canadians are astounded about what is happening in the U.S. and that Justin Trudeau would have to have a political death wish to open the border to non-essential crossings.


----------



## Polkasound

I had a little scare last night. Around 9:30 PM, I was sitting at my computer doing email when I suddenly started feeling unusually tired. I didn't think much of it at first, but it got progressively severe by the minute. Then I became hot and broke out into a sweat. Within minutes, I could barely stay awake. I was thinking to myself... oh no, please don't be COVID!

Since I hadn't eaten for a while, I gulped down a packet of trail mix and some water before crashing in bed. I woke up a few hours later, still soaking wet, but feeling fine. I googled the symptoms, and it was most likely just a spike in low blood sugar from not eating. But for a while there, I was freaking out!

Besides that good news, I just started receiving my pandemic unemployment assistance. It took about two months for the State of Wisconsin to review my application and approve my claims, but this musician is able to breathe a little easier now.


----------



## sostenuto

OK here _ for now.  Definitely spooky that young, healthy individuals ... with little (if any real risk) can be deliberately exposed and circulate with insidious motivation ..... anytime, any place.
Now impacting economy, election, _even apart from devastating human health and safety considerations_.

There will be notable change in early November. ... ' wait for it '


----------



## markleake

Rory said:


> And the extension of the ban on U.S./Canada non-essential travel is at Canada's insistence for the same reason, notwithstanding the Department of Homeland Security's hilarious attempt at spin: https://www.dhs.gov/news/2020/06/16/fact-sheet-dhs-measures-border-limit-further-spread-coronavirus
> 
> As someone who has homes in both countries, I know that Canadians are astounded about what is happening in the U.S. and that Justin Trudeau would have to have a political death wish to open the border to non-essential crossings.


I find it strange that, despite so much political noise about banning entry and such, the US has such lose rules around travel. Other countries enforced quarantines, with incremental severity as more cases were discovered. The US never really bothered, and yet the political party in power makes such a big deal of this stuff. Very strange.


----------



## Rory

markleake said:


> I find it strange that, despite so much political noise about banning entry and such, the US has such lose rules around travel. Other countries enforced quarantines, with incremental severity as more cases were discovered. The US never really bothered, and yet the political party in power makes such a big deal of this stuff. Very strange.



Maybe you find it strange because you don't know how a federation works. As far as I know, no Western federation has prohibited travel between its geographic parts. If you know your history of Italy, and the status of Sicily, it's arguably an exception, but a pretty rarified one. No large Western country - Australia, Brazil, Canada, Mexico, the U.S. - has closed its provincial or state borders. Nevertheless, these countries have quite different records on Covid-19.


----------



## Kony

Rory said:


> No large Western country - Australia, Brazil. Canada, Mexico, the U.S. - has closed local provincial or state borders.


Australia has some closed state borders - Queensland, WA, SA (SA's is partial allows some states to enter)

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jun/24/covid-19-restrictions-australia-coronavirus-lockdown-rules-update-how-far-can-travel-border-social-distancing-nsw-victoria-queensland-qld-wa-sa-act-how-many-people-over-house


----------



## Rory

Kony said:


> Australia has some closed state borders - Queensland, WA, SA (SA's is partial allows some states to enter)
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jun/24/covid-19-restrictions-australia-coronavirus-lockdown-rules-update-how-far-can-travel-border-social-distancing-nsw-victoria-queensland-qld-wa-sa-act-how-many-people-over-house



You're right, Australia restricted movement to some parts of the country. None of the other federal countries that I named - Brazil, Canada, Mexico, the U.S. - followed suit.

In other words, open local borders isn't strange, as @markleake suggested, but the norm.


----------



## Saxer

Rory said:


> As far as I know, no Western federation has prohibited travel between its geographic parts.


Germany did (if this belongs to the large Western countries).


----------



## Rory

Saxer said:


> Germany did (if this belongs to the large Western countries).



Germany is 3.6% of the size of Canada 

There's a reason why keeping open local borders in big federal countries like Canada or the U.S. is not as strange as @markleake suggests.


----------



## Saxer

Rory said:


> Germany is 3.6% of the size of Canada


And twice as many inhabitants


----------



## Rory

Saxer said:


> And twice as many inhabitants



Bingo! Maybe now you'll get it. Yah figure that if you have twice the population in 3.6% of the space, you might need to take a different approach on movement of people? This ain't rocket science.


----------



## Kony

I was under the impression that most countries introduced lockdowns - could this be considered the same as restricting movement across federal borders?


----------



## markleake

Rory said:


> Maybe you find it strange because you don't know how a federation works. As far as I know, no Western federation has prohibited travel between its geographic parts. If you know your history of Italy, and the status of Sicily, it's arguably an exception, but a pretty rarified one. No large Western country - Australia, Brazil, Canada, Mexico, the U.S. - has closed its provincial or state borders. Nevertheless, these countries have quite different records on Covid-19.


Bit unsure how you got here. It's not the original context of my post, but OK, why not... my comment probably applies to US states as much as to the US border.

So most countries, including Western countries, did exactly this to varying degrees. And, if you look at those countries and regions that have been more successful at controlling the virus, you will see this is one important method they used. Europe is a good example, especially when you look at countries like Austria, Greece, Denmark, Germany -- they have done very well because of this. This kind of restriction is still being used to great effect to limit new outbreaks.

I think this goes without saying really. Don't know why people would think otherwise.

For Oz, internal state restrictions were less of a factor, but this is mainly because the national border was what mattered. But it has been good to see how well the states and federal government have coordinated and managed themselves for us Aussies. You can see the result of this coordinated approach compared to the absolute shambles in the US -- a high cost the US people are paying for poor government, and many US citizens are somehow proud of this. 

Basically, the US is more of an outlier in this regard, both with internal state borders and national borders. I find this strange compared to what the US federal government rhetoric is.

---

As a side note, and completely off topic, I'm genuinely curious to know this... do Americans not realise that most of the Western world (and indeed much of Asia, SE Asia, and other big chunks of the world) live in some form of federated union or system of states or provinces? Do people know _why_ Germany was structured like this after the war, or why the UK is called the _United_ Kingdom, or what the European project is _for_, or _how _some of the bigger Commonwealth nations formed? Some of these systems the Americans originally had a big part to play.


----------



## chimuelo

Sorry, forgot to say how my family has been affected during COVID-19.
We’re doing okay because we’ve paid our taxes and played by the rules. Followed the CDC Guidelines, etc.
As a performing musician I’ve always been employed, so I pay quarterly taxes based on estimated income.

This is wise because sometimes you need a month off for pre production which doesn’t always include a salary or residual.
Unemployment is 1/3 of what I usually make, but at least it’s something.
Fortunately the PUA is substantial so I’m drawing 2/3’s of normal income.

Fellow performers who pocket the cash and pay no taxes were up shit creek without a paddle until a couple weeks ago where musicians could collect like gig performers. For 2 months I was helping friends who usually relied on husbands or wives for assistance, some had zero income for an entire month, others zero income for over 2 months.

And just as things started looking good, we saw idiots protesting, then came the murder of blacks by white cops, which always steals the headlines even though it’s a fraction of a fraction of black homicide it’s a media favorite.

The rest of the story is still in play.

Im lucky none of my family has been in peril. Several nurses and one doctor, two in law enforcement, 3 small businesses deemed Essential and me the lowly musician.

Fingers Crossed


----------



## MartinH.

If you like covid-19 graphs, I found a website that has you covered: 









Countries beating Covid-19 — EndCoronavirus.org


See which countries are winning, nearly there, or need action, when it comes to COVID-19.




www.endcoronavirus.org


----------



## jonathanparham

Just got an email from the producer on the gig I was on in March. So far no return date from the hiatus. The suits are trying to figure this out.


----------



## jsg

MartinH. said:


> If you like covid-19 graphs, I found a website that has you covered:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Countries beating Covid-19 — EndCoronavirus.org
> 
> 
> See which countries are winning, nearly there, or need action, when it comes to COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.endcoronavirus.org



This one, also, is very informing:








COVID-19 Map - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center


Coronavirus COVID-19 Global Cases by the Center for Systems Science and Engineering (CSSE) at Johns Hopkins University (JHU)




coronavirus.jhu.edu


----------



## GtrString

Well, today is not the best of days. Doesnt seem much hope to cling on to. Ive postponed gear purchases due to insecurity about second wave of Covid19. It doesnt really make much sense to pursue music right now. If it comes as hard as some say, it will hit here about a month from now, and then everything will be shut down again. If this is 4-5 times the intensity of the first wave, as some experts claim, I believe we will be devastated afterwards, and probably facing ww3 due to economy in chaos. With fascist regimes now in the us, russia and china at the same time, this is not a great time to be alive. Wish for safety and good health to all!


----------



## Greg

GtrString said:


> Well, today is not the best of days. Doesnt seem much hope to cling on to. Ive postponed gear purchases due to insecurity about second wave of Covid19. It doesnt really make much sense to pursue music right now. If it comes as hard as some say, it will hit here about a month from now, and then everything will be shut down again. If this is 4-5 times the intensity of the first wave, as some experts claim, I believe we will be devastated afterwards, and probably facing ww3 due to economy in chaos. With fascist regimes now in the us, russia and china at the same time, this is not a great time to be alive. Wish for safety and good health to all!



There is still some good news out there you just have to dig for it:








Oxford’s COVID-19 vaccine shows ‘very good results’ in trials, on track for October release: Project leader


A coronavirus vaccine being developed by researchers at the University of Oxford is on track for release in October, according to a leading scientist.




www.timesnownews.com


----------



## Tim_Wells

Greg said:


> There is still some good news out there you just have to dig for it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oxford’s COVID-19 vaccine shows ‘very good results’ in trials, on track for October release: Project leader
> 
> 
> A coronavirus vaccine being developed by researchers at the University of Oxford is on track for release in October, according to a leading scientist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timesnownews.com


Fortunately there are A LOT of brilliant minds working on this problem. So in time, there's bound to be some effective treatments. 

On the negative side, however, it's been pointed out there is no data available to support the optimistic claims made about vaccines (in particular). Only press releases and anecdotal evidence. For example, the Moderna study was a press release.

But on the surface, things look promising.


----------



## jsg

GtrString said:


> Well, today is not the best of days. Doesnt seem much hope to cling on to. Ive postponed gear purchases due to insecurity about second wave of Covid19. It doesnt really make much sense to pursue music right now. If it comes as hard as some say, it will hit here about a month from now, and then everything will be shut down again. If this is 4-5 times the intensity of the first wave, as some experts claim, I believe we will be devastated afterwards, and probably facing ww3 due to economy in chaos. With fascist regimes now in the us, russia and china at the same time, this is not a great time to be alive. Wish for safety and good health to all!



Where are you located? If people have the discipline, smarts and sense of the public good, a lot can be done to mitigate and reduce the infection rate. But I realize that's a lot to hope for in the U.S. where "me first" is the dominant ethos...

Don't give up and I hope you stay involved with music. Music has gotten me through some really difficult times in my life. I compose every day because otherwise I'd go completely nuts (rather than partially nuts!).

This too shall pass. We just have to bear with and cope with to the best of our abilities all that we have no control over...


----------



## RRBE Sound

In Denmark the situation is more or less down to just a tiny bit.. 

so Well.. I got a full time job in marketing and communications.. doing that until projects starts to roll.. 

My band Antiplanet have been recording for a lot of new great releases!! :D And of course been practicing a lot!!


----------



## patrick76

I went to a graduation party today for a relative. I'll just say that I really don't have any hope that this is going to turn out well here in my state. It blows my mind how susceptible people are to peer pressure, even as adults. Honestly I feel like we might as well be in the dark ages in terms of critical thinking. It's like this country is made up of cults.

Anyway, at this rate I'm guessing it won't be all that long before another "lockdown" is enacted due to completely irresponsible behavior. Here is a quote to illustrate from a "Jobbie Nooner" (big party out on the water) participant, "I'm not hiding in the house," Mann said. "I'm not going to be scared to live. If you want to stay inside, go ahead. But I'm having fun." Such bravery, no? An exemplary American.


----------



## sostenuto

Interested in this NY Times article, today, documenting early COVID-19 experiences, conflict, confusion, and unsurprising bureaucratic delays. Perhaps fair to revisit inherent flaws in all imperfect societies, organizations, individuals, and realize futility in pointing fingers in such difficult times. Plenty of fault, blame to go around, but surely, reasonable people can grasp how quickly this came upon us, and how sinister this virus. It will be truly inspiring if most will open their minds, and read carefully this early example of what has surely happened globally.









How the World Missed Covid-19’s Silent Spread (Published 2020)


Symptomless transmission makes the coronavirus far harder to fight. But health officials dismissed the risk for months, pushing misleading and contradictory claims in the face of mounting evidence.




www.nytimes.com


----------



## MartinH.




----------



## CT

Hmm, not the best thread to wander into in the midst of insomnia.

How am I affected by everything swirling around? In my lowest moments, I suppose I have less faith in and love for this world (the people, the world is great on its own) than I ever have, and am consequently more outright depressed than I ever have been. 

Whenever a return to some degree of normalcy happens, I don't know what I'm going to do. Can't go back to how things were, let alone do anything about whatever lofty musical aspirations I may still dare to entertain. Great big question mark.

That covers the low moments. Fortunately, in between, there's some measure of peace. I am grateful to have the people (and dogs) I care about still with me, or at least in contact with me. Also Thomas Newman, I'm grateful for him. And all you weirdos on here, with whom I should really stop being so personal. I hope you're all ok.


----------



## Jay Panikkar

An unexpected opportunity to "catch up." I've been busy with other work and neglected my musical aspirations, but now is the time to develop skills.


----------



## telecode101

...


----------



## MartinH.

telecode101 said:


> the last 5 or 10 years of your participation in the labor force is what will make the greatest difference to your retirement days.



Why? Shouldn't compounded interest make the first few years the most important?


----------



## MikeK

I’m a homebody by nature, and I work from home. My wife works in healthcare, so it was somewhat business as usual for her despite some intense weeks for a time. So our lives aren’t much different.

Generally, this pandemic gave me a greater appreciation for how connected things are and how it touches everyone to some degree. 

We can usually see this when there’s a strike in sports. It’s never just players/owners affected. It’s staff, local businesses, non-local businesses that benefit from sports happening, etc. It’s the same thing in a pandemic... a business closes, as one example, and you realize the chain reaction that has. Then multiply that by millions.

I also know people who, for a variety of reasons, have found this time to be a real struggle emotionally and I think I have even more empathy for that. In that respect, I hope I’ve grown as a person.

A change for me from this pandemic... I’m here because of it. Without going into the long backstory, music was a direction I gave up on as a teen before I really got started. Now I’m in my 50s. 

But with some extra time over the past few months to ponder life a bit deeper, I decided that I was going to jump more fully into music. (Taking ThinkSpace courses right now, as one example.)

To what end? No idea. But you can’t get to a destination without starting the journey.


----------



## jsg

poetd said:


> ARRRRRRRRRRRRG!
> 
> Long story short - Need VPN for work due to Lockdown.
> Windows 2004 lands on the PC.
> VPN has a bug Stonegate failed to advertise enough.
> IP stack completely trashed.
> Reset PC.
> 
> Currently downloading EVERYTHING again.
> 
> Months/Years of config/setup/settings/customisations.... all gone thanks to work VPN.
> 
> FML.


You didn't make disk images when everything was working well?

For reasons I don't understand, Windows 10 home is allowing me to postpone updates until December 2020 and even beyond into 2021.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything

JohnG said:


> lots of fallout for people in school, playing concerts, workplaces. All the children's schools online as of next week.


Not all colleges are going online. It will be interesting to see if more schools go back to in person classes.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything

Brasart said:


> Thankfully I'm young and I work from home, I even was able to attend my first academy award ceremony monday (and win my first award too!) in Paris, so Covid-19 hasn't impacted me at all -- at least yet !


🍾🥳


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything

jononotbono said:


> It has to be said though, the Coronavirus feels like perfect weather to stay in and buy a new library. Or two. Just saying.


AlmostCompletelyBroke.com


----------



## jononotbono

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> AlmostCompletelyBroke.com



I'm not buying anything for a while now. I've got enough Green Screens for now.


----------



## Navid Lancaster

Has not affected me much during this past few months. I work from home anyway and most of my meetings are either via social media messaging or via email. I started to introduce Directors to CueDb so that we can work more effectively via remote.


----------



## ryst

Covid-19 has affected me a lot. Mainly in good ways. I signed to a new music library. My 1-On-1 Mixing business (_in depth mix critiques_) has gotten a huge boom of business. Last week alone I was working with people in Canada, Denmark, UK, and Australia. Started another short film doing sound design, scoring and mixing. And got a bunch more mixing and mastering work.

I was bummed that I couldn't train jiujitsu or kickboxing anymore, but my wife and I bought some mats so we train at home for now. 

Overall, my wife and I are very lucky and blessed to have work and to be alive. I know there are many, many people who aren't so lucky and fortunate. I hope things can improve sooner than later. Such a strange time to be alive.


----------



## robgb

I'll let you know when the test results come back. We've been isolating, but my wife woke up with a sore throat a couple days ago so we went to t drive-through so that both of us could get tested.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything

robgb said:


> I'll let you know when the test results come back. We've been isolating, but my wife woke up with a sore throat a couple days ago so we went to t drive-through so that both of us could get tested.


Sending you both my warmest wishes 🙏🍀


----------



## sostenuto

robgb said:


> I'll let you know when the test results come back. We've been isolating, but my wife woke up with a sore throat a couple days ago so we went to t drive-through so that both of us could get tested.




Really mixed feelings ! Could be no worse than annual flu and get this all behind you. But nobody knows until it happens. Trusting all works for best. Take care. 😷


----------



## Kony

sostenuto said:


> Really mixed feelings ! Could be no worse than annual flu and get this all behind you. But nobody knows until it happens. Trusting all works for best. Take care. 😷


It's Russian roulette....


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything

JohnG said:


> lots of fallout for people in school, playing concerts, workplaces. All the children's schools online as of next week.


I would say that life is sort of crushing down on me and it’s hard for me to tell if covid19 is specifically a factor or the Universe just wants a Job The Sequel to watch cause they r bored 😑


----------



## richardt4520

Had to go to ER this morning after a night of 103 degree temp feeling like i had metal bands wrapped around my chest. Tested Positive. I've been diligent in wearing a mask, limiting going anywhere, and sanitizing immediately if i did. So I'd just like to remind all my friends here to please take as many precautions as you are able to. This feels awful. You do not want it.


----------



## NoOneKnowsAnything

richardt4520 said:


> Had to go to ER this morning after a night of 103 degree temp feeling like i had metal bands wrapped around my chest. Tested Positive. I've been diligent in wearing a mask, limiting going anywhere, and sanitizing immediately if i did. So I'd just like to remind all my friends here to please take as many precautions as you are able to. This feels awful. You do not want it.


Sorry to hear that 😳


----------



## bill5

richardt4520 said:


> Had to go to ER this morning after a night of 103 degree temp feeling like i had metal bands wrapped around my chest. Tested Positive. I've been diligent in wearing a mask, limiting going anywhere, and sanitizing immediately if i did. So I'd just like to remind all my friends here to please take as many precautions as you are able to. This feels awful. You do not want it.


Get better!


----------



## Kony

richardt4520 said:


> Had to go to ER this morning after a night of 103 degree temp feeling like i had metal bands wrapped around my chest. Tested Positive. I've been diligent in wearing a mask, limiting going anywhere, and sanitizing immediately if i did. So I'd just like to remind all my friends here to please take as many precautions as you are able to. This feels awful. You do not want it.


Sorry to hear that - how do you think you might have got it? I've been wary of fresh food and food packaging lately.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

richardt4520 said:


> Had to go to ER this morning after a night of 103 degree temp feeling like i had metal bands wrapped around my chest. Tested Positive. I've been diligent in wearing a mask, limiting going anywhere, and sanitizing immediately if i did. So I'd just like to remind all my friends here to please take as many precautions as you are able to. This feels awful. You do not want it.


Hope you get well soon.


----------



## hypnotize

From the very beginning of the pandemic, my family and I took care of ourselves as best we could. But not good enough care. I lost my sense of smell, for the first time in my life, I did not feel any smell around, even to the smell of a burning match. There was slight discomfort, and sometimes fever, sleepiness. A little later my wife fell ill. The sense of smell has disappeared. For several weeks she had a fever, severe weakness and headache. No pills helped. As a result, for two weeks we managed at home, the clinic and the hospital could not help. We had to overcome it ourselves. Then the illness began to recede and after a some weeks we feel good. We passed the tests for antibodies and the result showed that we have them.

This is not a simple cold at all, it is much stronger and more unpleasant.

Don't get sick, dear friends!


----------



## jsg

richardt4520 said:


> Had to go to ER this morning after a night of 103 degree temp feeling like i had metal bands wrapped around my chest. Tested Positive. I've been diligent in wearing a mask, limiting going anywhere, and sanitizing immediately if i did. So I'd just like to remind all my friends here to please take as many precautions as you are able to. This feels awful. You do not want it.



OH man, I hope you get well soon. 

Jerry


----------



## richardt4520

hypnotize said:


> From the very beginning of the pandemic, my family and I took care of ourselves as best we could. But not good enough care. I lost my sense of smell, for the first time in my life, I did not feel any smell around, even to the smell of a burning match. There was slight discomfort, and sometimes fever, sleepiness. A little later my wife fell ill. The sense of smell has disappeared. For several weeks she had a fever, severe weakness and headache. No pills helped. As a result, for two weeks we managed at home, the clinic and the hospital could not help. We had to overcome it ourselves. Then the illness began to recede and after a some weeks we feel good. We passed the tests for antibodies and the result showed that we have them.
> 
> This is not a simple cold at all, it is much stronger and more unpleasant.
> 
> Don't get sick, dear friends!


It will affect different people differently and with the fast mutation, it's hard to tell whether you'll end up with something benign or more aggressive. Last night my temps were running close or at 103C all night long, i was having really hard time breathing at all, and was concerned that i would quit breathing in my sleep. It was that bad. Had a headache that felt like someone was driving a screwdriver into my brain and my body stung all over really bad with bad chills. I was stumbling into things and couldn't think clearly. Everything tasted extremely bitter or like nothing. It was probably the sickest I've ever felt but i held off until the morning to go to er thinking it would subside but it didn't. They gave me a very strong steroid shot, since there isn't much else they can do, and that, along with continued use of Tylenol, knocked the worst of the symptoms out pretty well. It's been much better today. I'd recommend both of those to anyone who does get it. My post wasn't for sympathy or anything and I don't think my case is even that bad on the scale of how it's affecting many people. I just wanted to remind everyone to keep up on your protection. I thought i was, but i must've gotten lax somewhere in the couple of times i did leave the house last Friday and Saturday.


----------



## richardt4520

Kony said:


> Sorry to hear that - how do you think you might have got it? I've been wary of fresh food and food packaging lately.


Judging by the timeline, i think i must have gotten it when i went to the store Saturday morning. How? I can only guess i touched something or walked past someone who was ignoring the mask order, which some still are. I haven't been wearing gloves so this one may be on me. I thought disinfecting my hands when i left was enough. Maybe not.


----------



## jonathanparham

richardt4520 said:


> Had to go to ER this morning after a night of 103 degree temp feeling like i had metal bands wrapped around my chest. Tested Positive. I've been diligent in wearing a mask, limiting going anywhere, and sanitizing immediately if i did. So I'd just like to remind all my friends here to please take as many precautions as you are able to. This feels awful. You do not want it.


praying for you


----------



## jsg

To all my younger colleagues: Please take this seriously. You do not want to become infected with COVID-19.









Column: Gasping, afraid, alone. What it's like to die a COVID-19 death


Would we take the pandemic more seriously if we understood what it’s like to die of COVID-19?




www.latimes.com


----------



## PeterN

Is it too late to reply?

So a reply to the question, how was life affected by covid.

In many ways, but in one very unique positive way. I feel to share it (not anything negative). I isolated myself in wilderness - now 7 months - and the high blood pressure went down to normal. Also, I need only 6 hours sleep and still feel great

Its damn great, like you are 10 years younger. The air is fresh too. Nights are dark, but wonderful mystique.

So all in all its been quite good thing here.


----------



## Alex Fraser

PeterN said:


> Is it too late to reply?
> 
> So a reply to the question, how was life affected by covid.
> 
> In many ways, but in one very unique positive way. I feel to share it (not anything negative). I isolated myself in wilderness - now 7 months - and the high blood pressure went down to normal. Also, I need only 6 hours sleep and still feel great
> 
> Its damn great, like you are 10 years younger. The air is fresh too. Nights are dark, but wonderful mystique.
> 
> So all in all its been quite good thing here.


Would love to see some pics please. VIC from the depths of the wilderness.


----------



## PeterN

Alex Fraser said:


> Would love to see some pics please. VIC from the depths of the wilderness.



You get two from the wilflife camera. Not gonna hype further on this here, as there are people with great tragedies experienced. My brother in laws, brother, died from it, in UK. So I leave it here.


----------



## Morning Coffee

PeterN said:


> Is it too late to reply?
> 
> So a reply to the question, how was life affected by covid.
> 
> In many ways, but in one very unique positive way. I feel to share it (not anything negative). I isolated myself in wilderness - now 7 months - and the high blood pressure went down to normal. Also, I need only 6 hours sleep and still feel great
> 
> Its damn great, like you are 10 years younger. The air is fresh too. Nights are dark, but wonderful mystique.
> 
> So all in all its been quite good thing here.



How are you living? I mean, do you have a permanent house, land or farm, solar power?


----------



## PeterN

Morning Coffee said:


> How are you living? I mean, do you have a permanent house, land or farm, solar power?



Got chickens, fish in sea, garden for vegs, tools for hunting, well, ....... the basics. Learned the 'witches' plants with functions, and theres a lot of peculiar plants, some of which cannot be named here. Learned to dry food and got plenty sea salt for preservation. And so on. Woods for heating if needed. But I go to the grocery store once a week. You cant live fully self sustained, I mean, I still work remote, so you can maybe imagine how busy one is - at times. The solar was on the list, but I think that can maybe be a future thing. Learning chickens was enough for this year. (Oh, and the house is rent, not a farm, just a desolate house).

This "covid escape" was more an excuse to try this type of thing. The isolation from modern society for a while was very tempting, just could not find an excuse. Sometimes I think I wish this would last at least 2 years.

I do go to the imternet for the social thing, I could cut that too, one day, lets see.....


----------



## Morning Coffee

PeterN said:


> Got chickens, fish in sea, garden for vegs, tools for hunting, well, ....... the basics. Learned the 'witches' plants with functions, and theres a lot of peculiar plants, some of which cannot be named here. Learned to dry food and got plenty sea salt for preservation. And so on. Woods for heating if needed. But I go to the grocery store once a week. You cant live fully self sustained, I mean, I still work remote, so you can maybe imagine how busy one is - at times. The solar was on the list, but I think that can maybe be a future thing. Learning chickens was enough for this year. (Oh, and the house is rent, not a farm, just a desolate house).
> 
> This "covid escape" was more an excuse to try this type of thing. The isolation from modern society for a while was very tempting, just could not find an excuse. Sometimes I think I wish this would last at least 2 years.
> 
> I do go to the imternet for the social thing, I could cut that too, one day, lets see.....



Lovely! Good on you for having the courage to try such a thing. I am at a crossroads at the moment, especially with so much hatred in the world. I just want to move away from people and live off the land like my poor ancestors did, who were farmers. As much as I would have loved to, I unfortunately don't have a wife and kids, but it makes this option easier I guess, but sad at the same time. I think the world is changing, and not for the better. Good luck to you, mate!


----------



## Allen Constantine

Hi guys, 

Really hard times for me and my fiance's parents as 3 weeks ago we got the virus and we still feel the effects of it. It wasn't really bad for us as we normally have a good routine following healthy food diets and exercises, but the anxiety and the depression this thing can come up with is really gross!

Especially on the professional side of things.

I hope you all feel okay and you won't get it! We still have fever at around 37.8 after 3 weeks. It sucks. 

Stay safe everyone!


----------



## Kony

Some good antibody news:









An Experimental Drug Protects Covid-19 Patients, Eli Lilly Claims (Published 2020)


A so-called monoclonal antibody lowered levels of the coronavirus and prevented hospitalizations. The research has not yet been vetted by independent experts.




www.nytimes.com


----------



## jafhouse

I lost my Dad and my Aunt (dads sister) in May. They lived in different States...sheer coincidence. Two important people in my life now just part of 200,000 other important people in the US. It's affected everything. 

On a positive note... remote working and flexible schedule! I have been able to focus more time on music! Priceless!


----------



## José Herring

My heart goes out to those that lost somebody close to them. Couple of close calls but so far nobody that I'm really close to has passed a way though I know a family friend who her and her husband got it and it was 3 weeks of misery for them. Thank God they recovered.


----------



## Monkey Man

jafhouse said:


> I lost my Dad and my Aunt (dads sister) in May.


So sorry to hear this, man. My thoughts are with you.


----------



## robert35

jafhouse said:


> I lost my Dad and my Aunt (dads sister) in May. They lived in different States...sheer coincidence. Two important people in my life now just part of 200,000 other important people in the US. It's affected everything.
> 
> On a positive note... remote working and flexible schedule! I have been able to focus more time on music! Priceless!



man, I am so sorry. Lost my dad too, it's a hard one. 
I was depressed but one of my friends suggested online therapy - https://trustsession.com/ and it really helped me.
Hugs friend. Take your time grieving, know it's ok to feel like shit, know some days you will be ok. You will survive this, but I know it sucks. Hang in there.


----------



## Trash Panda

I'm very sorry for all those who have been negatively impacted.

My wife and I are incredibly lucky. Both of us are still somehow employed, and even though she is a school teacher in Texas, she hasn't brought COVID home yet. I've been working remote since mid-March, which is bizarre and isolating, but manageable.

Our struggles are mainly mental and emotional, but how much of that is due to COVID and the piss poor handling of it thanks to Death Cult 45 and how much of it is the stress of being a first-time parent raising an infant in this environment is hard to say. Our son is the shining light that keeps us sane.

Still have many nights waking up from nightmares where I’m saying goodbye to my family over FaceTime from a COVID ward, but it keeps the pandemic fatigue at bay.


----------



## jafhouse

robert35 said:


> man, I am so sorry. Lost my dad too, it's a hard one.
> I was depressed but one of my friends suggested online therapy - https://trustsession.com/ and it really helped me.
> Hugs friend. Take your time grieving, know it's ok to feel like shit, know some days you will be ok. You will survive this, but I know it sucks. Hang in there.


Thank you for the kind words and I am very sorry to hear about your Dad. I feel some comfort in the fact that we are documenting some of the human impact of all this. Seems like this stuff gets burried or not represented very well.


----------



## MartinH.

I wanted to buy some red wine today, but to my surprise - because of Corona - the sale of alcohol has been banned in the entire city for a couple days. I guess they thought it's the most effective way to crack down on illegal parties during lockdown. I understand why it's neccessary and I'm not complaining, but considering I was planning to drink alone, it felt a bit silly. I guess I'll be buying a bottle extra once it's possible again and I bet everyone will think like that and suddenly it's like the toilet paper incident again and the shelves will be picked clean, with the supply chain not being set up to deal with wildly varying demand.


----------



## NYC Composer

This is a valuable thread. Go to the beginning, read through it from March on and see how wrong we were.


----------



## jononotbono

I just feel ashamed production on my AAApartment Blockbuster movies has slowed right down. Didn’t think it would affect my industry. Think a new one is due! 😂


----------



## Beans

On a positive note:

Since my daughter isn't spending time at friends' houses like she used to (which is a shame), we've taken to doing more low key activities together (which is good). We've got a fantastic relationship and always liked playing board and card games together, but recently she's pulled me into video games.

While I'm familiar with the gaming world and always understood what someone meant when they talked about a JRPG or a Soulsborne or a Roguelike, I was a casual console and PC gamer at best. The last game I got into was probably over 20 years ago with Quake 2 Capture the Flag.

During the pandemic, I've either watched her play, co-played, or played while she was watching me

Final Fantasy 7
Final Fantasy 7 Remake
Bloodborne
Sekiro
Some of the Uncharted series
The Outer Wilds
... and probably a dozen more that I can't think of off the top of my head.
Even though my left hand is damaged (limited mobility in pinky, ring, and middle), I've had no trouble using the analog stick and triggers, as long as I only need one trigger at a time.

She just got a PS5, and the "adaptive trigger" technology for the controller is absolute wizardry.


----------



## InLight-Tone

Looks like we're all about to get re-affected...


----------



## MauroPantin

Beans said:


> The Outer Wilds



Oh man, I gotta finish this one. Such awesome music also!


----------



## Beans

MauroPantin said:


> Oh man, I gotta finish this one. Such awesome music also!



It's a lovely experience. So calm at times, yet frantic at others.


----------



## ptram

Here in Europe the virus is back at its full potential. My country is classified as the third worse for fatality in the world, and going up, so the distress is back.

As for me, I've grown a sense of fatalism. I continue to be as careful as possible – but you can't avoid to go to the grocery, and next week I'll have to go to the hospital for long-awaited exams. Right in the furnace!

The economy has gone severely down. While in March we were convinced that it was a passing storm – a severe one – now there is a sense of defeat among anybody who is seeing the bank account shrinking, or the business evaporating.

The measures taken to contrast the virus seem very often meaningless. For example, despite the virus being spread uniformly, we are forbidden to go over the municipality's boundaries. At the same time, there is no temperature measurement at the entrance of big malls. All seems like something that politicians are doing to show they are doing something, while they have no idea of what to do. So, the hope is a bit low.

Paolo


----------



## Hadrondrift

The West is too arrogant and ignorant. Instead of learning from the Asians how to fight a pandemic, they do their own thing and fail miserably. A pandemic requires a strong and sustainable response. Such a response is not to be seen here in Germany, for example. We have what not only politicians call a "lockdown light". This is so as not to damage the economy and not to get general acceptance problems. There are a lot of demonstrations against the measures in our country, because people see their freedom rights impaired and do not consider the measures appropriate for a problem that in their eyes is overstated. Some are completely trivializing the virus. It is not only a difficult health problem, but also a politically difficult one. Note: I do not want to create controversy here, that is not my intention, just note that there is some disagreement on this issue in our country. According to surveys, however, the majority of the population is behind the measures, which I welcome.

Meanwhile, our intensive care units are slowly but steadily filling up. My feeling is that we are not on a good path. But I also have to admit that I tend to have generally somewhat pessimistic views.

I think the vaccine could save the West's ass in the course of the next year. Without it, I'd be puzzled as to how we're going to deal with the pandemic at all.

As an IT guy, I am one of the lucky ones who can work in the home office. Not so, for example, our educators and teachers, who are under a lot of strain, because there are currently a lot of infections in the schools and kindergartens that are all still open. Myself I would describe as somewhat introverted. I don't have a large social environment, so I do not perceive lockdowns as a psychological burden, more as a quiet time, also for reflection.

For the creative industries, the pandemic is of course a disaster. All cultural events no longer take place here, theaters, cinemas, concert halls, ... everything is closed. Especially the solo self-employed in art and culture have a really hard time.


----------



## MauroPantin

We continue to be somewhat locked down here in Argentina (Buenos Aires, particularly). Restrictions were lifted at a very conservative pace since they started back in March.

We seem to have survived the first wave without the health system collapsing, which was the major thing. The death rate appears to be on par with the world average (of places that did not collapse their hospitals). And we're heading into the summer, no clue how that will affect the dynamics of the spread.

Buenos Aires, mi city, has around 400 cases a day with a 3 million people living and working in the city and about 15 million in the metro area coming and going, and an average of 22 dead a day. Not zero but I think zero es not realistic, as tragic as all of this is. The big thing for me is to be sure that everyone can be treated if they get sick, make sure they don't have to endure triages where someone decides who lives and who dies. To me, that's unacceptable.

I think all in all it's okay in terms of the virus management, so far, or at least it seems that way. The numbers have been and continue to be fuzzy. Trying to figure out how we are doing by comparing numbers feels impossible because there are no points of reference.

The economy is a completely different subject, and is in the shitter of course. Worst it's ever been in the history of this country.

Maybe in New Zealand or places that are easily isolated because of geographic advantages, where there's not a lot of poverty and where tests were hastily procured (and put to work) when this thing started, where people are educated and conscious of their impact in their community... maybe in those places it is realistic to think of zero dead as a goal. Unfortunately Argentina is not great in several of those areas.


----------



## ptram

MauroPantin said:


> And we're heading into the summer, no clue how that will affect the dynamics of the spread.



Across Europe, summer did a lot to decrease the spreading of the virus, or at least the symptoms and fatality. But it was back during September (if I'm not wrong, beginning from Northern Europe, where temperatures are lower and autumn comes earlier). I'm not sure the US and Mexico were helped by the good season.

Summer has to be used to strengthen the health system. And create a strategy for the economy (in particular, I think, in countries already going through a difficult situation for other causes). Any sign of laxity from those in charge of preparing the war strategy for the following autumn has to be considered a preparation to mass suicide.

But if the experience is the same everywhere (and I guess Argentina has much in common with Italy), be prepared to those screaming that the virus has gone and will not be back.

Paolo


----------



## MauroPantin

ptram said:


> Across Europe, summer did a lot to decrease the spreading of the virus, or at least the symptoms and fatality. But it was back during September (if I'm not wrong, beginning from Northern Europe, where temperatures are lower and autumn comes earlier). I'm not sure the US and Mexico were helped by the good season.
> 
> Summer has to be used to strengthen the health system. And create a strategy for the economy (in particular, I think, in countries already going through a difficult situation for other causes). Any sign of laxity from those in charge of preparing the war strategy for the following autumn has to be considered a preparation to mass suicide.
> 
> But if the experience is the same everywhere (and I guess Argentina has much in common with Italy), be prepared to those screaming that the virus has gone and will not be back.
> 
> Paolo



If there's one thing that has happened here that has been consistently wrong is complacency and unfounded optimism. Both from the authorities and from the general population. I think this is a common thing to humans and your description of what it looks like after the summer is over makes me weary of what might happen here.

You see, all the time there's this idea that things are temporary. So the plans put in place are just for "two weeks" or "a month". This is not a realist approach to this. There is no consistently effective treatment yet. The vaccine is going to take some more time. And the virus is not going to magically disappear. So, why in the hell are we doing this "This is temporary" plans? It is beyond me. I guess it's just human nature and it there's political pressure to not change radically the lives of millions of people overnight. But if you are leading I believe it is your responsibility to make these things clear. 

I think most of the world (or at least Argentina) could use a definite "This is what life has to be with a contagious yet non-treatable respiratory disease going around, and it will be until the disease isn't there anymore. Sorry.". It also makes people think long term and has to take into account a multitude of variables that right now are being omitted by authorities. The economy, mental health and education being the most hurt areas IMO. People need a predictable and most importantly *sustainable *framework mid-term until this shit is over. I don't know about the rest of the world but that is not happening here.


----------



## Kony

We should also get more reliable information about transmission. It's been a year now and there still has not been a single controlled experiment to determine if the virus spreads via surface (fomite) transmission. Increasingly, medical professionals and scientists are saying that the virus is airborne only. More accurate and reliable information would help people control the spread - especially by realising the importance of wearing masks.


----------



## MarcusD

My partner has had to close her salon twice now which has been a set back financially, we're also worried because its last on the list of priorities to reopen for government. 

For my useual (non music) work I'm off due to long term health issues that put me at risk. Which is fine, I aslo have a couple projects to work on that'll helps us out if we get in a pickle. TBH in a weird way its kind of nice to spend more time with my partner, despite the shitstorm.

My partners parents caught Covid, but are now OK. Currently my grandfather is in hospital with it but he is stable. We're worried sick as he has diabetes and asbestos damage to his lungs. Hopefully he'll pull through, he's a tough ol'boot.

I also worry about my folks as they also have a lot of health problems. Personally its caused me lot of anxiety worrying about family and trying hard to be safe. 

Initially, in the first lock down we didn't really experience anything because it hadn't reached where we live. However, its now here and many have caught it, how people act doesn't help. Witnessed much shameful behaviour by others. Makes you ponder where we are heading as a society and where our core values have gone.


----------



## PeterN

It will be a dark winter - globally. Unless the vaccine can really affect this, and any possible mutations. But you can see the storms in horizon. Its not only the virus either, its all between economy, basic income and whatnot. We might see revolutions. And they affect other things as well.


----------



## telecode101

I think once the vaccine comes out if will be over. But things will change. I suspect taxes will go up to pay for and cover the economic gap that the pandemic has created. its also very possible there will societal changes of some kind. sort of what happened after 9/11. travel never was the same again. i still stand by my theory that this pandemic will permanently affect travel and movement of people in some way. i predict you and you family will need to go to a doctor and get some kind of letter or document stating you are not sick and well to travel if you have to travel out of country. 

am in very curious how this will affect the entertainment and culture industries though. i have no ideas on that yet.


----------



## Tim_Wells

I'm excited and hopeful about a vaccine, and plan to get vaccinated. 

But there are still a lot questions about the length of immunity. There are cases of people getting reinfections after only two-months (though rare). At the moment, they are saying reinfection is unlikely for up to six months. 

Then there's the big question of how many people will get vaccinated. You need a large percentage of people who are either vaccinated or have had the disease for herd immunity to occur. 

Sadly, we could have a ways to go before we get there. So sick of this thing.


----------



## ryst

I think masks are here to stay, regardless of a vaccine. Even when covid is gone, people will not want to ever catch a cold or flu or anything else again and people will demand it because they will say, "your behaviour can affect my health". So it will become a law at some point. Kinda like the smoking ban. Second hand smoke can affect other people in very bad ways. So can having a cold or flu. I'm not saying this as something I'm looking forward to or agree with. But just a prediction because.....humans.


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## MartinH.

Fuck the youtube algorithm! I just saw an old video from January on the frontpage, about a "new virus from china", on the channel of a reputable german news source and since I usually don't look at the date, I thought "Noooo, not again! We haven't even dealt with the first one yet!". Not the kind of scare I need in the morning...


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## Gerbil

So many students are isolating and I've been asked to teach them from home, which is ok but far from ideal. I'm not missing them 'soldiering on' with heavy colds though. People with that mindset have always been a pain. If you're ill, stay at home. The year before last, I ended up with pneumonia, which was much worse than my experience of covid. Took months for me to be able to exercise properly.


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## cloudbuster

I'm living on the Canary islands, probably caught the virus about 2 months ago since a number of people close to me tested positive; two of them spent some time in the hospital but are fine now. I just coughed a bit here and there, isolated myself for 2 weeks, didn't even care to get tested (could as well toss a coin over here) and that was it. My mother and friends on the continent are doing just fine - keeping fingers crossed.

Bottom line: I'm not concerned about my own health too much, been through that a couple times before during my years in Asia (Sars, Dengue fever, ...). What really p..... me off is the incredible ignorance (aka stupidity), carelessness and utter lack of respect towards other people's health and lifes I've witnessed during the last couple months.

Take great care!


----------



## PeterN

cloudbuster said:


> I'm living on the Canary islands, probably caught the virus about 2 months ago since a number of people close to me tested positive; two of them spent some time in the hospital but are fine now. I just coughed a bit here and there, isolated myself for 2 weeks, didn't even care to get tested (could as well toss a coin over here) and that was it. My mother and friends on the continent are doing just fine - keeping fingers crossed.
> 
> Bottom line: I'm not concerned about my own health too much, been through that a couple times before during my years in Asia (Sars, Dengue fever, ...). What really p..... me off is the incredible ignorance (aka stupidity), carelessness and utter lack of respect towards other people's health and lifes I've witnessed during the last couple months.
> 
> Take great care!



Hey man, we have something in common here. Music, Dengue, SARS, Spain and a Tibetan symbol too. Too long story to go into details, but I think I had SARS - in the good old 2003, or when was it. Did you have it? I recall something like 20% took off from it. Dengue well, yes - high fever it was. Settled down in Spain as one base. Lot experience with Tibet. Cheers mate. Still alive.


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## MartinH.

In these times... how do you all deal with situations like people that never reply to mails or even worse, sudden and unexpected radio silence, and no way of contacting them through other channels?


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## MauroPantin

MartinH. said:


> In these times... how do you all deal with situations like people that never reply to mails or even worse, sudden and unexpected radio silence, and no way of contacting them through other channels?



Man did you hit the nail right on the head... I have no psychological equipment to deal with this. So I just turn into a white-hot magma ball of rage when the third email gets no answer.


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## MusiquedeReve

Hmmmmm...not much

Worked from home prior to Covid
Friends live out of state so I wasn't going to see them anyway
Gave up on dating about 6 years ago so my dating life hasn't been affected

All in all - life pretty much stayed the same


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## MartinH.

MauroPantin said:


> Man did you hit the nail right on the head... I have no psychological equipment to deal with this. So I just turn into a white-hot magma ball of rage when the third email gets no answer.



This really sucks, sorry to hear you're going through this too! I hope you'll get an answer soon and all is fine with them.

An e-mail conversation I had with a friend suddenly stopped 6 weeks ago, and since then all 3 mails of mine received no reply, and he's not answering his phone. I'm quite worried to say the least. I started trying to track down people closer to him in hopes of getting some info, but I didn't get a reply yet.

But it raises a question to me, what do I do with all those friends of mine, that I don't talk to often, and that are notoriously bad at replying to mails? Trying to check in on all those seems like a recipe for needless worries. And I'm not connected on social media with any of them, because I don't use social media at all. And they don't all do either, so I can't just look if they're still posting.

How are we supposed to handle this?


----------



## MauroPantin

MartinH. said:


> This really sucks, sorry to hear you're going through this too! I hope you'll get an answer soon and all is fine with them.
> 
> An e-mail conversation I had with a friend suddenly stopped 6 weeks ago, and since then all 3 mails of mine received no reply, and he's not answering his phone. I'm quite worried to say the least. I started trying to track down people closer to him in hopes of getting some info, but I didn't get a reply yet.
> 
> But it raises a question to me, what do I do with all those friends of mine, that I don't talk to often, and that are notoriously bad at replying to mails? Trying to check in on all those seems like a recipe for needless worries. And I'm not connected on social media with any of them, because I don't use social media at all. And they don't all do either, so I can't just look if they're still posting.
> 
> How are we supposed to handle this?



This has happened to me since all the lockdowns and quarantines around the planet started, so Feb-March or just about. It's the weirdest thing but I find a lot of people are just moving at a slower pace and not getting back to people at their usual pace and/or are sort of checked out of connecting with others online. Really frustrating. So far everyone's been okay, though. I hope your friend is, too.


----------



## chimuelo

I got to practice for hours everyday.
Learned to cook from the cackling hens.
Rode my mountain bike about 25 miles a week.
Lots of stretching and Yoga.

But I am bored to death now. 

I can’t wait to get back to work.


----------



## MartinH.

MauroPantin said:


> This has happened to me since all the lockdowns and quarantines around the planet started, so Feb-March or just about. It's the weirdest thing but I find a lot of people are just moving at a slower pace and not getting back to people at their usual pace and/or are sort of checked out of connecting with others online. Really frustrating. So far everyone's been okay, though. I hope your friend is, too.



Turns out my friend is fine, just super stressed and he dropped all communication efforts, didn't even read my messages. His colleague that I reached out to gave him a nudge to call me. He apologized, and in light of all the bullshit he has to deal with, I can't be mad. But I hope that was the last scare of that kind during this pandemic.


----------



## MauroPantin

MartinH. said:


> Turns out my friend is fine, just super stressed and he dropped all communication efforts, didn't even read my messages. His colleague that I reached out to gave him a nudge to call me. He apologized, and in light of all the bullshit he has to deal with, I can't be mad. But I hope that was the last scare of that kind during this pandemic.



This is what I've encountered, mostly. Just people checking out of coms because of the stressful nature of this whole thing. Glad he's okay, man!


----------



## patrick76

This is an interesting article and interactive map for those of us in the U.S. You can see the percentage of Covid patients in hospitals in your area and if that percentage represents a serious strain on the facility. https://www.npr.org/sections/health...ospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours#lookup


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Going into our second lockdown here in Alberta, Canada. We were doing pretty good, until people started rebelling and holding social gatherings despite the restrictions. We also have these ridiculous "anti-mask" groups holding downtown protests claiming their rights have been stripped, etc. All these dopes needed to do was wear a mask inside public buildings, and keep outdoor gatherings to a maximum 15! It was so simple. It's very frustrating, and the irony is that these idiots are creating their own demise.


----------



## Hadrondrift

Jeremy Spencer said:


> We also have these ridiculous "anti-mask" groups holding downtown protests claiming their rights have been stripped


This seems to be an almost worldwide phenomenon, perhaps except for some countries in Asia. It is very similar here in Germany. We have had demonstrations with thousands of people refusing masks and feeling restricted in their freedom by the anti-Corona measures, which are not even particularly hard here. But okay, democracy and a society strongly oriented towards the individual, not to say egocentric. Well, the matter is very controversial, conflicts can arise even in the closest circle of friends, what I find very sad.

Here it turned out that the "lockdown-light" we've had for a few weeks now is not working well, as many people and I expected. Now we are considering a strict lockdown - but only after Christmas, to ensure Christmas as a family celebration and (unofficially) to save the Christmas business. Completely ridiculous.

The matter is complicated in our country because we have a federal system and infection control is a state matter. Chancellor Merkel is very unhappy with the situation and would like to make a hard lockdown immediately, but she does not have the political power to enforce it. This is decided by our prime ministers _(ger: Ministerpräsidenten)_, of whom we have 16, and each decides somewhat differently, depending on the situation in his state.

The situation here has worsen and the hospitals are gradually filling up. If the vaccine does not take effect by the middle of next year, it will be really hard.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Hadrondrift said:


> Here it turned out that the "lockdown-light" we've had for a few weeks now is not working well, as many people and I expected.



That's exactly what happened here. People got very relaxed about the rules and now here we are...back at square one (and they blame the government LOL!). What's even more idiotic, is our vaccine received government approval today, and there's already many groups ranting about how it contain micro chips, etc. This whole thing really opened my eyes to how stupid humans can be, including long-time friends whom I'll likely never associate with again.


----------



## novaburst

roccodunhamm said:


> I want so much to come back to a normal life again


I think we must come to an understanding that we have entered a new age or world or a new time, rather than going back to what was before I think it's about adjusting to what is now and perhaps will never go back to what we know

After all this has effected the whole world something we would never have dreamed of we only see this type of thing in movies or some other land, but not ours

But I think it's also awake up call is to take life more seriously weather we be young or old let us number our days or value the days we have on this earth.


----------



## MauroPantin

Looks like we're going into a lockdown again here, after the measures were eased a bit for the summer.


----------



## Crowe

I warned all of my friends back in May last year that this was now the new normal. Clinging to how things 'used to be' is unhelpful, it is unlikely we'll ever get back to the exact way things were. We are humans. We adapt. It's what we're supposed to be able to do well.

So adapt.

We need to take a step back and realize how incredibly lucky we have been that our first global pandemic is only moderately dangerous.


----------



## jononotbono

I was in NY and the studio I was working at was getting affected by Covid so I made the choice to come back to England until this situation is over as I didn’t want to be a financial burden on the studio. Basically came back to England, everything over here went into lockdown and now I’m skint and looking for any work that I can do from my home studio so it’s affected me massively. Can’t wait for it to be over to be honest.

Still, life could be worse and there is a silver lining... I’ve had my green screen sent back to me so I think it’s time to make another Covid movie 😂


----------



## Crowe

jononotbono said:


> I was in NY and the studio I was working at was getting affected by Covid so I made the choice to come back to England until this situation is over as I didn’t want to be a financial burden on the studio. Basically came back to England, everything over here went into lockdown and now I’m skint and looking for any work that I can do from my home studio so it’s affected me massively. Can’t wait for it to be over to be honest.
> 
> Still, life could be worse and there is a silver lining... I’ve had my green screen sent back to me so I think it’s time to make another Covid movie 😂


I've been following some of your adventures in Unity, I've taken to writing tools for Unity Developers in order to make some cash in the future. Might be an idea while you're unable to find work in music.


----------



## jononotbono

Shiirai said:


> I've been following some of your adventures in Unity, I've taken to writing tools for Unity Developers in order to make some cash in the future. Might be an idea while you're unable to find work in music.


It's a great idea but currently I don't feel I'm skilled enough in Unity to write any tools. I am however going to start making a few tutorials on Unity stuff as I find it so much fun and highly creative!


----------



## Alex Fraser

Shiirai said:


> I warned all of my friends back in May last year that this was now the new normal. Clinging to how things 'used to be' is unhelpful, it is unlikely we'll ever get back to the exact way things were. We are humans. We adapt. It's what we're supposed to be able to do well.
> 
> So adapt.
> 
> We need to take a step back and realize how incredibly lucky we have been that our first global pandemic is only moderately dangerous.


Yep - I've always considered the "party like it's 2019" scenario to be a bit optimistic. UK politicians tellingly have stopped using the phrase _"get back to normal"_ and shifted to _"some sense of normality."_

IMO, what we need now is an end to the ever changing ruleset and a period of stability. If that comes with some restrictions, that's OK. Just don't keep flipping the page, y'know?


----------



## TiagoG

Shiirai said:


> We need to take a step back and realize how incredibly lucky we have been that our first global pandemic is only moderately dangerous.


Massive +1 on this. 

History tells us global pandemics are a matter of _when_, not _if_. I hope this gives us a good playbook on how to handle the next one, which can be much more serious.


----------



## vitocorleone123

TiagoG said:


> Massive +1 on this.
> 
> History tells us global pandemics are a matter of _when_, not _if_. I hope this gives us a good playbook on how to handle the next one, which can be much more serious.


We had a playbook in the US. I’m sure other countries, as well. But without the people in office with the ability and will to follow the playbook, it doesn’t matter. Case in point: the USA + COVID-19

Ultimately it comes down to people being informed and accepting facts so they can be acted on. Voting for intelligent enough and capable enough people is a part of this (eg I think Pence is revolting on many levels but I never considered him incompetent, though perhaps blinded by his own beliefs). But the other guy.........

On a side note, I got my first shot today of Pfizer. I got light headed within minutes but I have some history of that (eg big blood draws, motion sickness, etc) and had to lay down behind the counter in the pharmacy - 95% sure it was just me, not the shot. I was comfortably driving home 30 min after the shot. Much to the pharmacy’s relief! Ha. It’s been 6 hours now and so far the only side effect is it feels like those flu shots that sometimes end up hurting one year more than other years. Here’s hoping that’s the only side effect for shot #1!

EDIT: Going on 24 hrs - the injection site just hurts decidedly more than a flu shot (like someone gave me a good punch in the arm), otherwise no issues.


----------



## mallux

vitocorleone123 said:


> On a side note, I got my first shot today of Pfizer. I got light headed within minutes but I have some history of that (eg big blood draws, motion sickness, etc) and had to lay down behind the counter in the pharmacy


Nice to know I'm not the only one... my wife has been ribbing me for years about how I "pass out" at the sight of a needle! Won't stop me being at the front of the queue for my covid jab as soon as I'm called, whatever brand we end up with.


----------



## bill5

I am a medical weenie also but managed to survive my first shot. Arm sore as hell in that spot though.

I just look forward to the day when I can go shopping and everywhere I go doesn't look like a surgeon's convention.


----------



## PeterN

Finally a new comprehensive research into origins of this hell, that has destroyed so many peoples lives is being pushed forward. Theres this saying, "truth is a force of nature" - lets hope it will prove right. We deserve to know how this hell started. And the hell is far from over. 

15 months living in the seaside forestside cottage now - today planted a lot of plants. Beetroot grows very well here, this year Ive planted double the amount beetroot compared to last year. Will try drying beetroot this year. Was thinking of getting ducks, but that means Im stuck whole summer in one location. Its either the duck egg and stuck here, or no duck egg, and possibility to go hiking North.

And that being said, wouldnt mind taking a few ducks with me travelling. Lets say, 5 ducks, driving North. Hanging out somewhere, enjoying life, solar panels and tent - ducks can sleep in car in night. In Asia nobody would raise an eyebrow, but in Europe it would be so odd, I assume someone calls the cops and probably also doctor. Got well along with chickens, Im sure ducks must be quite similar. Good friends.


----------



## PeterN

TiagoG said:


> Massive +1 on this.
> 
> History tells us global pandemics are a matter of _when_, not _if_. I hope this gives us a good playbook on how to handle the next one, which can be much more serious.


This pandemic is far from over. And it can become very serious - we do not know yet - economically too. Or both.

But quite prepared here if things go serious - dont know about other people, are they prepared *if the game starts for real.* Most are not. Of course not.


----------



## nolotrippen

PeterN said:


> Finally a new comprehensive research into origins of this hell, that has destroyed so many peoples lives is being pushed forward. Theres this saying, "truth is a force of nature" - lets hope it will prove right. We deserve to know how this hell started. And the hell is far from over.
> 
> 15 months living in the seaside forestside cottage now - today planted a lot of plants. Beetroot grows very well here, this year Ive planted double the amount beetroot compared to last year. Will try drying beetroot this year. Was thinking of getting ducks, but that means Im stuck whole summer in one location. Its either the duck egg and stuck here, or no duck egg, and possibility to go hiking North.
> 
> And that being said, wouldnt mind taking a few ducks with me travelling. Lets say, 5 ducks, driving North. Hanging out somewhere, enjoying life, solar panels and tent - ducks can sleep in car in night. In Asia nobody would raise an eyebrow, but in Europe it would be so odd, I assume someone calls the cops and probably also doctor. Got well along with chickens, Im sure ducks must be quite similar. Good friends.


You had me at ducks


----------



## PeterN

nolotrippen said:


> You had me at ducks





nolotrippen said:


> You had me at ducks


Would like to hear the chord progression of the musician here, who has a garden with a goat and goose walking freely. The guy who has a golden retreiver and goes jogging with it on Malibu beach every morning has no interest to me. Same goes with his/her music - all following norms.

About the reason behind the virus, lets invoke the Gods of Fire to help to get out the truth. And if there are sinners, let us pray that they shall be punished - by the Divine.

Dostoyevsky wrote about the mentality of the Sinner after the Sin. Who tries to hide it - the psychology is said to be so meticulous, so that criminal investigators read Crime and Punishment for insight. If the pandemic Sinner is an entity I personally suspect, let the Sinner(s) be tortured as Rashkolnikov before the Divine Forces release the Wrath. And may the Wrath be Furious.


----------



## CoffeeLover

i got sort of comfortable and lazy
it was nice and i gained weight. 
gyms opened now and i started training again 
i vomited after finishing exactly 50% of my workout. 
its amazing how much stamina i lost for just a year off training.


----------



## bill5

Yeah it's hard to build up a routine and so easy to fall out of it


----------



## jonathanparham

welp. Finishing one gig and getting ready to start another gig. What's interesting is that I'm being told that one production's lab results don't count at the other. I'm on a tight turnaround and literally, the producers are saying I have to come in on a Saturday, test negative, so I can start work on a Monday. Oh and I did both shots.


----------



## rnb_2

Until a couple weeks ago, my presence here and the shocking amount of money I've spent on VIs and controllers was the biggest impact of the last 15 months on my life.

In April, my parents lost their beloved 16-year-old dog. A cousin found some puppies at an Amish farm near her cottage, and told my parents about them. They all went to see them; my cousin picked one for herself, and my parents decided to take two. They all went together to pick them up a week later.

Soon after, my cousin found out that her daughter (an all-around anti-vaxxer) got COVID at work, and had passed it to her. She ended up in the hospital for a few days, but recovered. My dad started feeling sick and got tested, came back positive. He isolated himself upstairs in the house, but wasn't feeling better after a week - very run-down, no appetite, but no breathing problems that he understood as such. He wanted to get the monoclonal antibody infusion on May 28th, went to a clinic to get the necessary blood work, and they found his blood oxygen level dangerously low and sent him by ambulance to the hospital.

A few days of oxygen, first with a normal mask, then with an uncomfortable BiPap mask, did not have the hoped-for effect, and his doctors were contemplating putting him on a ventilator when he removed the BiPap mask (again) due to discomfort, and his breathing didn't recover. He was sedated and put on the ventilator on June 2nd. The following few days were mostly stable, and they were even able to reduce the oxygen level and pressure after a few days. However, he suffered a collapsed lung on Monday (which they were able to re-inflate with a chest tube), and had contracted a staph infection and possible fungal infection in his lungs.

On Wednesday, the doctor told my sister that he feared my dad's lungs were too far gone. My mom, who finally got a COVID test that came back positive but is thankfully completely asymptomatic, was cleared to come see him in full PPE that afternoon, and she, my sister, and I were able to do a video chat while she spent a few hours with him (he was still under sedation due to the ventilator).

I was awakened by my phone early on Thursday morning, and I listened blearily as my sister told me that I probably needed to get on a plane (I live a few hundred miles away). They were giving my dad "hours to days" at that point, and I bought a plane ticket that would have had me in town around 8pm, at the hospital around 9:30. About an hour later, my sister called back to say that it was unlikely that I'd be able to get there in time, and so there was no point in my coming - there won't be a funeral, but there will be a memorial service in a few weeks.

My dad died around 2:30pm on Thursday, June 10th. He had turned a healthy, pretty active 76 on May 11th.

Sadly, my parents declined to get vaccinated. A couple cousins, my aunt (my dad's 86-year-old sister), and I all tried to convince them to protect themselves, but most of the people around them decided not to in order to make some sort of political point that the virus cares not one bit about.


----------



## Saxer

Sad story. Very sorry.


----------



## ptram

Hadrondrift said:


> Here it turned out that the "lockdown-light" we've had for a few weeks now is not working well


Italy has done worse than most until recently, and we have had a hard lockdown. But a real hard lockdown proved to be impossible, unless you are China. So we supplied with apotropaic solutions. There were measures like restaurants allowed to serve lunch but not dinner; and four people allowed at the table up to a certain date, but six after that date. Public parks were closed as dangerous places, walking more than 200 meters away from home forbidden and fined.

In the end, the hard lockdown has made ill a population that was very healthy. Despite the heavy police control (we had more police than medical staff), there wasn't an issue of preventing dangerous behaviors, but the idea that being confined at home was effective per se. And so, people running at the beach or biking at the mountain, or even surfing at the sea, were catched with drones, to make them return confined at home. A German family, alone at the sea next to my home, was intercepted with an helicopter!

So-called hard lockdown without adequate tracking is meaningless. You can get the virus at the supermarket, or at work if your job is one of those invisible jobs that can never stop. Our essential workers were not tested, for lack of materials and personnel. I got the virus in February 2020, when it was still even denied, and couldn't be tested until late summer. The official tracking app was commissioned to a small company specialized in recycling yoga guides — the servers initially hosted in their basement. It killed the phone's battery (my iPhone lasted around four hours), and was never used.

Summer will give us relief, but we will likely get back to the next wave without adequate preparation. We lack nurses, since the pay is low and they prefer to go to Germany or France. We have more emergency beds, but they are useless without the operators. Most hospitals have not been adapted to the new situation. In the meantime, the population's health has worsened, with less open air activity, less medical surveillance, and the surgery stopped. My father needs surgery, but will not have it for months, even one year (that would mean never). I need exams, but the diagnosis centers are not yet back to normal operation.

Contrasting an epidemic with police instead of doctors may work in the movies, but not in the real world.

Paolo


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## Hadrondrift

ptram said:


> So-called hard lockdown without adequate tracking is meaningless.


I agree. And it doesn't make sense to test, track and trace if infected people are not effectively isolated. Additionally, there is no point in isolating people if many infected individuals go undetected. Effective real hard lockdown may really only be enforceable in totalitarian states. Where the father of the family cannot return to the family once tested positive, as it for example was handled in China.

What I am currently afraid of here in Germany is that we will not achieve the required vaccination rate to cope with the coming fall and winter without any problems. Fortunately, the number of infections is declining, perhaps due to seasonal factors, perhaps due to the increasing vaccination rate. Currently, all restrictions are gradually falling and people may no longer see the need to be vaccinated.

Now the government is planning to even close the state vaccination centers. We have a vaccination rate of 25% fully vaccinated people, where experts believe a rate of 70-80% is needed. It seems to me that opening all the doors is happening too fast. But I am also a professional pessimist.


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## kgdrum

rnb_2 said:


> Until a couple weeks ago, my presence here and the shocking amount of money I've spent on VIs and controllers was the biggest impact of the last 15 months on my life.
> 
> In April, my parents lost their beloved 16-year-old dog. A cousin found some puppies at an Amish farm near her cottage, and told my parents about them. They all went to see them; my cousin picked one for herself, and my parents decided to take two. They all went together to pick them up a week later.
> 
> Soon after, my cousin found out that her daughter (an all-around anti-vaxxer) got COVID at work, and had passed it to her. She ended up in the hospital for a few days, but recovered. My dad started feeling sick and got tested, came back positive. He isolated himself upstairs in the house, but wasn't feeling better after a week - very run-down, no appetite, but no breathing problems that he understood as such. He wanted to get the monoclonal antibody infusion on May 28th, went to a clinic to get the necessary blood work, and they found his blood oxygen level dangerously low and sent him by ambulance to the hospital.
> 
> A few days of oxygen, first with a normal mask, then with an uncomfortable BiPap mask, did not have the hoped-for effect, and his doctors were contemplating putting him on a ventilator when he removed the BiPap mask (again) due to discomfort, and his breathing didn't recover. He was sedated and put on the ventilator on June 2nd. The following few days were mostly stable, and they were even able to reduce the oxygen level and pressure after a few days. However, he suffered a collapsed lung on Monday (which they were able to re-inflate with a chest tube), and had contracted a staph infection and possible fungal infection in his lungs.
> 
> On Wednesday, the doctor told my sister that he feared my dad's lungs were too far gone. My mom, who finally got a COVID test that came back positive but is thankfully completely asymptomatic, was cleared to come see him in full PPE that afternoon, and she, my sister, and I were able to do a video chat while she spent a few hours with him (he was still under sedation due to the ventilator).
> 
> I was awakened by my phone early on Thursday morning, and I listened blearily as my sister told me that I probably needed to get on a plane (I live a few hundred miles away). They were giving my dad "hours to days" at that point, and I bought a plane ticket that would have had me in town around 8pm, at the hospital around 9:30. About an hour later, my sister called back to say that it was unlikely that I'd be able to get there in time, and so there was no point in my coming - there won't be a funeral, but there will be a memorial service in a few weeks.
> 
> My dad died around 2:30pm on Thursday, June 10th. He had turned a healthy, pretty active 76 on May 11th.
> 
> Sadly, my parents declined to get vaccinated. A couple cousins, my aunt (my dad's 86-year-old sister), and I all tried to convince them to protect themselves, but most of the people around them decided not to in order to make some sort of political point that the virus cares not one bit about.


@rnb_2 
I’m so sorry to hear this,my heart goes out to you and your family.
I lost my brother in law April 2020 due to COVID so I understand on a personal level how devastating this has been for millions & millions of people.
It’s a shame the pandemic,the vaccines and the strategy to combat and eliminate the the threat of COVID got hijacked & politically weaponized.


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## AndyP

@rnb_2 My sincere condolences! 
It is sad to see that there are still many people who do not take the virus seriously.

My family is now fully vaccinated, parents, brother, partner, etc.. (they live in different states). The only one who has not even received the first vaccination is me, although I suffer from asthma and heart failure.

All efforts to get a vaccination appointment have failed so far. In Germany it is hard to see which strategy is followed here, it is a gamble, and regionally very different (even in Hamburg it seems to depend on the district or the doctor's office). 
Every call to family doctors sometimes takes hours for a connection, and then you are turned away because there is no vaccine or all appointments are taken.

Apart from that, in Hamburg, where I live, there is not enough vaccine available.
In the meantime, children are being vaccinated, and this despite the fact that many people from the risk groups have so far gone empty-handed.

In the meantime, the beer gardens are full again, the soccer stadiums are filling up for the European Championship, and this despite the fact that there is still no herd immunity and a new, more contagious variant. Apparently, many already vaccinated forget that they can still infect themselves and others, because the vaccination only prevents a bad course for the vaccinated.

Not being able to be vaccinated because there is not enough vaccine is one thing, but to refuse it on principle is irresponsible.


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## rnb_2

AndyP said:


> @rnb_2 My sincere condolences!
> It is sad to see that there are still many people who do not take the virus seriously.
> 
> My family is now fully vaccinated, parents, brother, partner, etc.. (they live in different states). The only one who has not even received the first vaccination is me, although I suffer from asthma and heart failure.
> 
> All efforts to get a vaccination appointment have failed so far. In Germany it is hard to see which strategy is followed here, it is a gamble, and regionally very different (even in Hamburg it seems to depend on the district or the doctor's office).
> Every call to family doctors sometimes takes hours for a connection, and then you are turned away because there is no vaccine or all appointments are taken.
> 
> Apart from that, in Hamburg, where I live, there is not enough vaccine available.
> In the meantime, children are being vaccinated, and this despite the fact that many people from the risk groups have so far gone empty-handed.
> 
> In the meantime, the beer gardens are full again, the soccer stadiums are filling up for the European Championship, and this despite the fact that there is still no herd immunity and a new, more contagious variant. Apparently, many already vaccinated forget that they can still infect themselves and others, because the vaccination only prevents a bad course for the vaccinated.
> 
> Not being able to be vaccinated because there is not enough vaccine is one thing, but to refuse it on principle is irresponsible.


@AndyP I’m sorry to hear that you haven’t been able to get vaccinated, in spite of your best efforts, especially with your existing health issues. I hope you are able to get a shot soon!

It is certainly part of my frustration with my family that, all around the world, there are millions and millions of people who want to get vaccinated and can’t, but many people I’ve known my whole life are choosing not to because of conspiracy theories, even after my dad’s death. They’re passing around lists of medicines to take after you test positive, and others to take if you show symptoms, with no mention of the single easiest, most effective way to protect themselves.


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## AndyP

rnb_2 said:


> @AndyP I’m sorry to hear that you haven’t been able to get vaccinated, in spite of your best efforts, especially with your existing health issues. I hope you are able to get a shot soon!
> 
> It is certainly part of my frustration with my family that, all around the world, there are millions and millions of people who want to get vaccinated and can’t, but many people I’ve known my whole life are choosing not to because of conspiracy theories, even after my dad’s death. They’re passing around lists of medicines to take after you test positive, and others to take if you show symptoms, with no mention of the single easiest, most effective way to protect themselves.


My guess is, I am not a psychologist, that people who believe in conspiracy theories are very fearful people. They seem to be suppressing something or they are building an alternative reality because they don't like the truth.

What bothers me most about these people is the ruthlessness and ignorance with which they thereby indirectly harm other people.

Man has always been susceptible to myths, fairy tales and sensations. A flaw in our genes it seems, or simply a bad character trait.

For me it is no problem not to be vaccinated yet. As long as this is the case, I hold myself back as far as possible and have direct contact with only a few people. 

Germany is one of the countries where bureaucracy is more important than common sense, so I had already adjusted in my mind. And most politicians have chosen this path because they wanted to make a career, not because they necessarily wanted to achieve something for the people. So it's the same everywhere. This also contributes to the fact that many people lose confidence in politics, and that promotes the conspiracy theories. The abolition of excessive bureaucracy, and career politics would be the first way to the goal of giving people confidence again.

Disenchantment with politics kills faith in democracy if we are not careful.


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