# Will piano lessons help with orchestration?



## Mike Fox (Nov 13, 2016)

I've been playing guitar for about 18 years now, even though I plateaued after 5 years of playing (I'm self taught and got lazy after that), I really dont play much anymore, and for the past 6 years I have been composing music with sample/VI libs, mainly horror music. A couple of years ago, I realized that I really need to up my game. I want to learn real orchestration, arrangement, counterpoint, etc. Obviously, knowing and understanding these things would definitely help me get to where I want to be. Truth is, I havent done much of anything yet to learn these things, and truth is, I'm not really sure where to begin. Taking piano lessons has definitely been on my agenda, but will lessons help me understand orchestration and the likes? What's the fastest/best way to learn these things? Im not necesarrily interested in playing complex piano pieces, but am far more interested in writing for an orchestra, and learning how to use that to my advantage for the type of music I currently compose.

Also, here is a track I composed to give you a better idea of where my capabilities currently are.



Thanks in advance.


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## Rodney Money (Nov 13, 2016)

Berlioz was a guitar player, and he wrote the book on orchestration. Piano lessons will help you learn the piano. Studying orchestration, writing idiomatically for instruments, and studying composition through scores, lessons, transcribing, teacher, etc. will help you write music better. You want to learn to write great melodic counterpoint? Study Bach. You want to write great orchestration? Study Respighi's Pines of Rome, Williams, Holst's The Planets and his Suites for Band, Rite of Spring, or the Lord of the Rings Score. You want to learn how to write epic? Study Mahler's 2nd Symphony, R. Strauss, or modern day composers like Zimmer. You want to rip your heart out and at the same time write for strings? Study "Adagio for Strings" and Mahler's Movement 4 of Symphony No. 5. You want to study how to turn a beautiful melody into a work of powerful art? Study Elgar's Nimrod Varation. You want to learn to compose for percussion? Study drum corps (DCI) scores. You want to learn to write the saddest most emotional music in the world? Study the orchestra version of Bach's Partita, Chaccone. And you want to study modern, deep music that makes you think? Ives "The Unanswered Question" and Schoenberg's "A Survivor from Warsaw."


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Nov 13, 2016)

I think that to a certain extent it'll help. I've had quite a bit of training on multiple instruments and in theory and a lot of the time I still think in a piano mindset visualizing a keyboard or "feeling" chords in my hands. If I'm trying to work out some voice leading then I automatically think in a notation mindset. It won't help with orchestration itself but I think it would help with your writing in general and fluency. Having said that, I'm not quite sure at what level you'd need to play before you can think that way so perhaps it's not something that's realistically possible for you. 

To learn orchestration you should probably just listen to music. Honestly, I'm not sure what the big fuss is with orchestration. Perhaps it's because I grew up playing in orchestras so I just learned by osmosis but I've taken countless orchestration courses and read most of the orchestration texts out there and what they present just all seems pretty obvious to me. It's probably from being around orchestral music and just learning what each instrument is capable of which is why I'd suggest just listening. Then you can essentially reverse-engineer it to get the sound you're looking for.


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## JohnG (Nov 13, 2016)

Those are some interesting suggestions, Rodney -- nice.

Mike, I assume you are talking about "traditional" orchestra, or at least one that incorporates strings / brass / woodwinds / orchestral percussion, even if it also has guitars and electronics and so on? 

I think the best way to really learn is to do _a bit of_ studying and, especially, to have real players play something you arrange or compose for them. Another benefit of live players is that, if you have the same difficulty most creative geniuses do with procrastination, having players waiting for parts is a good incentive to finish things. 

There are a number of ways to do this.

*Live Players*

1. live university course or night course that offers ensembles of real players (not just electronics or samples),

2. online university course (like from Berklee) that has players,

3. online course with Thinkspace or something like that -- focused on film / tv / game music,

4. purchase a time slot with one of the orchestras that does that kind of thing (these results can vary, with some being very good, some less so),

5. hire players locally to play stuff you've done, especially if you have access to very good players, and

6. hire someone over the internet who will play your tracks part by part (there are players who will do this for strings and drums, certainly, and maybe others too).

The key is to get really very good players -- studio calibre if possible. It is ok to have students or amateurs play your material if you can't get any better, but the risk is that it will sound uninspiring, out of tune, and really just send you right back to samples. You don't want to learn, inaccurately, that you have to write in a very narrow range, say, for brass, when professionals can play a much wider range.

*Books / Study*

On the "study" side, the books / programs I like are:

1. Adler's orchestration book (with audio CDs or MP3s -- must have these) for traditional orchestra,

2. Alexander University (website) has a course in orchestration with multiple parts that also has audio examples for everything.

There are other excellent written sources. I have seen PDFs of Rimsky Korsakov's book free, online (it's in the public domain) and it's an interesting and speedy read. A more in-depth book is Blatter's Instrumentation and Orchestration, which I'm wading through from time to time myself. It doesn't have audio, alas, so that makes it not as good for a new orchestrator.

Kind regards,

John


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## JohnG (Nov 13, 2016)

sorry to be long-winded -- one more thing (well, two)

First, learning a new instrument (piano etc.) is always a plus.

Second, studying scores by John Williams is Orchestration Gold. Or the scores he studied himself. But if you are in a hurry, going straight to JW is a good start, even if it's just a few bars at a time.

Among other things, you can see:

1. doublings that work well for live players, plus octave doublings -- so crucial; 

2. ranges for professional / very good players, which are sometimes wider than appear in many orchestration books; and

3. just how amazingly difficult some of his pieces are to play. Some stretch right to the edge.

Good luck!

John


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## calebfaith (Nov 13, 2016)

I personally found that when I began learning piano I began to understand harmony more and more. I find that playing music on the piano provides a visual representation of the music/chords and it also helps me with voice leading.

I don't play guitar so I don't know if it provides a similar experience but I think there's no reason why you shouldn't learn piano, it will help your midi workflow as well!


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## Dave Connor (Nov 13, 2016)

"Cannot everything be said on the piano?" Igor Stravinsky.

The short answer to your question is yes. The long answer is along the lines of Rodney's thumbnail sketch.

A better question may be "will piano study make me a better musician?" which is a definite yes.


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## JohnG (Nov 13, 2016)

You guys are correct -- it's always good. But I have to say I'm not a fan generally of postponing what you WANT to do in music by doing something else first as a preparation, however worthy, especially if that something else is going to take a lot of time and require many, many hours of tedium.

I think it's important to keep creating, keep driving ahead with something musical that gives you energy and is fun (or at least satisfying) for you, whether that's playing string quartets or in bands at fraternity parties or writing esoteric choral music. Or anything at all, really.

By all means, learn the piano, but don't risk crushing or weighing down the urge to just do it -- to inspire yourself and just make something up.


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## mescalito (Nov 13, 2016)

I'm a guitarist too and I also play piano - I'd say piano gives you a sense of chord voicings that guitar doesn't really give you (because you can deal with more notes at a time). I've found that this sense of what voicings make sense on the piano has given me a leg up orchestration-wise because they generally hold true to orchestration voicings too, but as others have said, orchestration involves many other things that are irrelevant to the piano, like range, timbre, volume, etc. But some piano chops definitely won't hurt.


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## Baron Greuner (Nov 14, 2016)

Instead of putting up a piece of music that is already orchestrated, why not put up a solo piano piece that you've actually played yourself using your hands and fingers?


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## Morodiene (Nov 14, 2016)

As a pianist, I do most of my composing with a piano in mind - either playing on it, or envisioning the notes. The piano is visually set up to be able to "see" harmonies very easily. So I do think it could be helpful.

But as @JohnG said, don't postpone composing by doing this. Have it be from day one to facilitate your composing. Most likely that would mean you have a composition teacher who can help you use the piano for composing purposes.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Nov 14, 2016)

mikefox789 said:


> I've been playing guitar for about 18 years now, even though I plateaued after 5 years of playing (I'm self taught and got lazy after that), I really dont play much anymore, and for the past 6 years I have been composing music with sample/VI libs, mainly horror music. A couple of years ago, I realized that I really need to up my game. I want to learn real orchestration, arrangement, counterpoint, etc. Obviously, knowing and understanding these things would definitely help me get to where I want to be. Truth is, I havent done much of anything yet to learn these things, and truth is, I'm not really sure where to begin. Taking piano lessons has definitely been on my agenda, but will lessons help me understand orchestration and the likes? What's the fastest/best way to learn these things? Im not necesarrily interested in playing complex piano pieces, but am far more interested in writing for an orchestra, and learning how to use that to my advantage for the type of music I currently compose.
> 
> Also, here is a track I composed to give you a better idea of where my capabilities currently are.
> 
> ...




Didn´t read here all the posts though, but beeing by myself a guitarrist for over 20 years right now I can completely understand your concerns. As I started of doing my music business, I head to face the matter of fact that my piano skills were practically zero, so at least in order to be able to work and sketch out effectively my ideas I was forced to learn playing the piano because the guitar is nice but doesn´t work that good when you want to compose for orchestra. Now after 5 years I am still no lang lang, but I am able work fast and compose my ideas with the piano and perform them all. And that is in my opinion very important. If piano playing is so important to know how to orchestrate I would say not that much because orchestration is a discipline on its own sure inherently still connected with composition, so maybe an understanding of piano playing and the right voiceleading and chord progression can help you having a good base for your later orchestration but that doesn´t mean your orchestration will be perfectly fine if you don´t know any principles in that field. There are quite some good orchestrators out there who are slouches at the piano so.. My recommendation is: When you have struggles performing on the piano I would do and practise playing more Plus I would advice you starting and working more on your orchestrational skills. Hope that helps a bit?


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## Living Fossil (Nov 14, 2016)

mikefox789 said:


> What's the fastest/best way to learn these things?



I don't like the concept of "fastest" ways, but rather the concept of "best" ways...
In music, things need lots of time...

However, my personal view is the following:
First of all, the key to music is a really good developped inner ear. There is no shortcut for this and no theory, no software can replace it. 
Second, playing the piano for sure is a good thing. After playing for some years, the brain creates a direct connection to your hands which lets you skip a lot of interference with your brain. Basically, some of the ideas go directly into your fingers. 
When i comes to orchestration, personally i like to split the work in different parts.
The clearest ideas about orchestration usually come while walking or lying in the bed; more or less in silence, but this takes years of experience.

A good way to train the ears btw is to skip readymade sample textures and figure out how you can achieve similar sounds /textures if you write them from the scratch.


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## Dave Connor (Nov 14, 2016)

I don't see an _either/or _situation here. It's not as if you can't study Science, History and Math at the same time. Why should the far more integrated Orchestration and Keyboard Proficiency be any different? In fact those are taught along side each other in schools (or were when I was in college.) If ever there was a visual assistant in chord construction, orchestration etc., it's the keyboard. With the use of Notation and DAW programs it is often the input mode of choice.

The idea of developing facility at the keyboard is precisely to maximize time usage on many levels. Taking the time to develop it will be a great time saver in the years ahead in what could prove to be exponential to the original time-investment.


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## Mike Fox (Nov 14, 2016)

Everyone, thank you so much your responses. You have been beyond helpful, and I think there is a lot of useful information here. I do feel somewhat torn here though. I see ups and downs to favoring only one aspect to my original question. I think Dave Conner put it quite well, "I don't see an _either/or _situation here.", and I think this is the approach that I want to take, especially after reading what many of you who play piano claim how It has helped you. I don't want to limit myself either. I guess I just need to figure out how to prioritize the two skill sets when It comes time to study them. But how?



calebfaith said:


> I personally found that when I began learning piano I began to understand harmony more and more. I find that playing music on the piano provides a visual representation of the music/chords and it also helps me with voice leading.
> 
> I don't play guitar so I don't know if it provides a similar experience but I think there's no reason why you shouldn't learn piano, it will help your midi workflow as well!





Morodiene said:


> As a pianist, I do most of my composing with a piano in mind - either playing on it, or envisioning the notes. The piano is visually set up to be able to "see" harmonies very easily. So I do think it could be helpful.



These are reasons I want to play piano. I compose using a midi keyboard that sure as hell represents a piano, so wouldn't it make sense to learn how to play one? Btw, knowing guitar doesn't help at all in this regard (maybe if I used a midi guitar?), but it has definitely helped train my ear a bit.



JohnG said:


> You guys are correct -- it's always good. But I have to say *I'm not a fan generally of postponing what you WANT to do in music by doing something else first as a preparation*, however worthy, especially if that something else is going to take a lot of time and require many, many hours of tedium. I think it's important to keep creating, keep driving ahead with something musical that gives you energy and is fun (or at least satisfying) for you, whether that's playing string quartets or in bands at fraternity parties or writing esoteric choral music. Or anything at all, really.By all means, learn the piano, but don't risk crushing or weighing down the urge to just do it -- to inspire yourself and just make something up.



Me either, which is why I'm concerned. Being 33 years of age kinda scares me, because the clock is ticking. My goal is to get all this sorted by the time I'm "over the hill". I guess 40 is the new 30 thanks to modern medicine and P90X? 



douggibson said:


> I think you need to elaborate on what your goals really are.
> I listened to your track. It seems clear that your a "media composer" (not knocking that at all. Its why we are here)
> It's hard to tell the "gaps" in your knowledge because of sample technology.
> It already sounds pretty adept, but who knows how much is baked in from the libraries. Also orchestration is not just about what YOU know, but what you can CONVEY to others.



Honestly, my main goal would be to compose much faster than than my current pace. I'm a very slow writer. Every time I compose something, I will sit at the keys, and just play notes until something in my brain clicks. I do this until I have something to work with. I then overdub/layer that piece with instruments that I think sound good. I do this until I have a single section of a song, then I repeat the process until multiple sections are written and I have what can be considered a full song. This writing method is slow, and sometimes boring, but it's the only way I know how to write. This is where I thought knowing how to play piano would help.

I posted the track in hopes that It would give a clear representation of where my orchestration (in)capabilities currently reside. I will say that the track I posted took me a while to do. Every note was handpicked, and I don't like to use loops, not even background percussion loops. I'm sure many people on here could write a track better than this in an hour, so that would be my ultimate goal, to get to that level. That's where I thought learning orchestration might help? Or maybe I'm confusing things?

Btw, I've never heard the term "media composer" before. Maybe you can elaborate on what that means? 



mescalito said:


> I'm a guitarist too and I also play piano - I'd say piano gives you a sense of chord voicings that guitar doesn't really give you (because you can deal with more notes at a time). I've found that this sense of what voicings make sense on the piano has given me a leg up orchestration-wise because they generally hold true to orchestration voicings too, but as others have said, orchestration involves many other things that are irrelevant to the piano, like range, timbre, volume, etc. But some piano chops definitely won't hurt.





AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Didn´t read here all the posts though, but beeing by myself a guitarrist for over 20 years right now I can completely understand your concerns. As I started of doing my music business, I head to face the matter of fact that my piano skills were practically zero, so at least in order to be able to work and sketch out effectively my ideas I was forced to learn playing the piano because the guitar is nice but doesn´t work that good when you want to compose for orchestra. Now after 5 years I am still no lang lang, but I am able work fast and compose my ideas with the piano and perform them all. And that is in my opinion very important. If piano playing is so important to know how to orchestrate I would say not that much because orchestration is a discipline on its own sure inherently still connected with composition, so maybe an understanding of piano playing and the right voiceleading and chord progression can help you having a good base for your later orchestration but that doesn´t mean your orchestration will be perfectly fine if you don´t know any principles in that field. There are quite some good orchestrators out there who are slouches at the piano so.. My recommendation is: When you have struggles performing on the piano I would do and practise playing more Plus I would advice you starting and working more on your orchestrational skills. Hope that helps a bit?



You guys are confirming my inner instinct to want to learn how to play piano, especially since you're guitarists. Did already knowing how to play guitar help at all with learning piano? Did it speed up the process at all?

Again, thanks for everyone's comments. It feels good being a part of a forum where musicians care about other musicians!


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## Baron Greuner (Nov 14, 2016)

To me, orchestration is in your head. Fluidity of playing is great for composition. You write the piece and then you orchestrate it. You don't need to be a great player to compose and orchestrate, but what helps when you can play without thinking, is the ability to improvise. That takes an enormous amount of time and practice, and if you want to be a good keyboard player then you must spend a lot of time in the company of J S Bach.


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## JohnG (Nov 14, 2016)

mikefox789 said:


> I've never heard the term "media composer" before. Maybe you can elaborate on what that means?



Media composing = Composing for games, television, adverts, movies -- music for picture and image. By contrast with symphonies, operas, ballets, and songs that are not written to picture.


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## Mike Fox (Nov 14, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> Instead of putting up a piece of music that is already orchestrated, why not put up a solo piano piece that you've actually played yourself using your hands and fingers?


Mainly because I can't play the piano, and everyone's ears would start to bleed after the first 10 seconds of me making an attempt. 

Actually, here's an example of me playing piano. As you can hear, It's very basic, and used as more of a mood setter.


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## Mike Fox (Nov 14, 2016)

JohnG said:


> Media composing = Composing for games, television, adverts, movies -- music for picture and image. By contrast with symphonies, operas, ballets, and songs that are not written to picture.


Ok, that's what I thought, but wasn't sure If the term was that self explanatory. In that case, I must be doing something right, because that is the kind of composer I want to be.


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## InLight-Tone (Nov 14, 2016)

I would say the ability to improvise at the keyboards is the most important skill you could aquire. Some like to compose on staff by writing in the notes by hand but to be successful at that would take a great inner ear to pre-hear what you're writing. But being able to improvise ideas and try out different harmonic paths, voicings and harmonizations at will DEFINITELY speeds up the composing process for doing mixed media. The biggest problem is that until you get to a certain skill level, what you write may be limited by your skill level in playing.

Have you watched any of Mike Vertas masterclasses? He can churn out ideas left and right all the while sipping on a stiff drink...


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## Mike Fox (Nov 14, 2016)

InLight-Tone said:


> I would say the ability to improvise at the keyboards is the most important skill you could aquire. Some like to compose on staff by writing in the notes by hand but to be successful at that would take a great inner ear to pre-hear what you're writing. But being able to improvise ideas and try out different harmonic paths, voicings and harmonizations at will DEFINITELY speeds up the composing process for doing mixed media. The biggest problem is that until you get to a certain skill level, what you write may be limited by your skill level in playing.
> 
> Have you watched any of Mike Vertas masterclasses? He can churn out ideas left and right all the while sipping on a stiff drink...



How do you get good at improv? Seems like you would have to know the piano VERY well, because that's how it is on guitar. I can improv all I want on that instrument, but that's only because I've played it for so long.

Yes, I've seen Mike's classes, and really enjoy them! I've bought and watched the Orchestration, Composition, and Horror classes.


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## Baron Greuner (Nov 15, 2016)

Actually that's not that bad at all. You can use both hands at the same time which is a good base.

What you should do, is go to a piano teacher and ask to to Grade 1 and all the corresponding scales ect. That's the best way to become a keyboard player. No short cuts.


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## jononotbono (Nov 15, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> What you should do, is go to a piano teacher and ask to to Grade 1 and all the corresponding scales ect. That's the best way to become a keyboard player. No short cuts.



Yep. I've spent the past 6 months (or more) just memorising all 30 Key sigs and playing all Major Scales and their Relative Minors (Natural, Melodic and Harmonic). Now onto learning intervals. Baby steps.


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## Baron Greuner (Nov 15, 2016)

Always a good idea to remember that old school guys like me are the best keyboard players. 

Keep in mind scale practice is handy for learning about key sigs etc. But what they're really for is simply keyboard fluidity and getting muscle memory into your system. Said it a million times, but when you get to play set works, like say Bach or Shostakovich, you just don't want to be thinking about the next note you're going to play. This is how improvisational skills develop, especially through subliminal intake of the compositional skills of the greats.

Running parallel with practical playing, Grade 1 Theory and so on is always a good idea.


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## jononotbono (Nov 15, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> Always a good idea to remember that old school guys like me are the best keyboard players.
> 
> Keep in mind scale practice is handy for learning about key sigs etc. But what they're really for is simply keyboard fluidity and getting muscle memory into your system. Said it a million times, but when you get to play set works, like say Bach or Shostakovich, you just don't want to be thinking about the next note you're going to play. This is how improvisational skills develop, especially through subliminal intake of the compositional skills of the greats.
> 
> Running parallel with practical playing, Grade 1 Theory and so on is always a good idea.



Definitely man! What's the point, for a media composer, to just learn theory without being able to apply it and more importantly, playing. Even from just playing scales, as boring as it is to begin with, has made me start noodling into places I never would have before. Learning tertian theory and seeing (and hearing) thirds has started to make me write stuff differently. It feels like being in musical prison not being able to actually play anywhere. This is a long road but insanely important. I'm a long way off being able to modulate anywhere and whenever I want but I will get there. Just having dexterity from Scale practise is invaluable.


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## Baron Greuner (Nov 15, 2016)

What I do mostly before I start working, is to just sit there with some sort of keyboard sound and just make a racket. The rule is not to use any click, no backing, just both hands at the same time only, and just do something like a Blues improv. Make loads of mistakes and use loads of different Modes while you're playing around. It gets you loosened up. This is how scales et al will help enormously.
This Blues improv I just did to show how easy it is just to ramble around a keyboard based on Blues modes.


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## Mike Fox (Nov 15, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> Actually that's not that bad at all. You can use both hands at the same time which is a good base.
> 
> What you should do, is go to a piano teacher and ask to to Grade 1 and all the corresponding scales ect. That's the best way to become a keyboard player. No short cuts.


I definitely don't want to take any shortcuts. I did that with guitar, and I ended up having to back and re-learn some things.

Btw, do you think practicing on a midi keyboard is a bad idea, as opposed to the real thing?


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## Baron Greuner (Nov 15, 2016)

I've made no secret over time here that I think just about all midi keyboards are shit. That said, this little improv I put together this morning for you, is a random keyboard sound on a Kurzweil midi keyboard, because we all have to use them for work don't we. Ideally for playing like this you would eventually want to be on a waterfall keyboard which is a much much faster action than a weight actioned. That's why there's a ton of hack mistakes in there but that doesnt matter because it's all about getting a feel for playing.
But its immaterial, because in your case you need to get to grips with practicing on a weight action (like a normal piano) and actually want to do it. Very important that is. The wanting to do it.

Get a piano tutor; don't skimp; don't be bored by scales; the greatest rock stars are people like Bach so start with what the tutor tells you to do and when you can play your 1st Bach 2 part invention somewhere down the line, let us all know.


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## Mike Fox (Nov 15, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> I've made no secret over time here that I think just about all midi keyboards are shit. That said, this little improv I put together this morning for you, is a random keyboard sound on a Kurzweil midi keyboard, because we all have to use them for work don't we. Ideally for playing like this you would eventually want to be on a waterfall keyboard which is a much much faster action than a weight actioned. That's why there's a ton of hack mistakes in there but that doesnt matter because it's all about getting a feel for playing.
> But its I mmaterial, because in your case you need to get to grips with practicing on a weight action (like a normal piano) and actually want to do it. Very important that is. The wanting to do it.
> 
> Get a piano tutor; don't skimp; don't be bored by scales; the greatest rock stars are people like Bach so start with what the tutor tells you to do and when you can play your 1st Bach 2 part invention somewhere down the line, let us all know.


Thanks again for all the advice. It means a lot!


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## Morodiene (Nov 15, 2016)

mikefox789 said:


> I definitely don't want to take any shortcuts. I did that with guitar, and I ended up having to back and re-learn some things.
> 
> Btw, do you think practicing on a midi keyboard is a bad idea, as opposed to the real thing?


Yes, unfortunately, MIDI controllers tend to have not-so-great actions. Even organists will practice on a piano to keep their "chops" up, so it's a good thing for accuracy in your playing to have a real acoustic piano in good condition, or barring that, a decent digital piano. 

A MIDI controller will last you about 2 months at most if you are taking piano lessons. After that it will just be frustrating. If you are on a budget, look into the Casio PX-160 which is the best action you can get for around $600. Or if you can find any closeouts on the PX-150 for less. Or look in the used market.


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## Mike Fox (Nov 15, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> Yes, unfortunately, MIDI controllers tend to have not-so-great actions. Even organists will practice on a piano to keep their "chops" up, so it's a good thing for accuracy in your playing to have a real acoustic piano in good condition, or barring that, a decent digital piano.
> 
> A MIDI controller will last you about 2 months at most if you are taking piano lessons. After that it will just be frustrating. If you are on a budget, look into the Casio PX-160 which is the best action you can get for around $600. Or if you can find any closeouts on the PX-150 for less. Or look in the used market.


Good to know! Thank you for the recommendation! Btw, in your experience, how many years does it take (generally) to get good on piano?


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## Morodiene (Nov 15, 2016)

mikefox789 said:


> Good to know! Thank you for the recommendation! Btw, in your experience, how many years does it take (generally) to get good on piano?


Define "good" 

Seriously, there are many factors that without working with you I can't even say. Factors include: natural talent, musical intelligence, amount of consistent practice time, willingness to learn, diligence in doing what is assigned, and lastly, how far you want to go/what specific goals are. Sometimes students will start with one goal and end up with another as they get into it.

Particularly motivated students can get to early intermediate within the first year, possibly playing Bach Little Preludes and Inventions in 2 or 3 years. This is rare though. Piano is hard and most adult students have unrealistic expectations. 

As @Baron Greuner pointed out, do all the little insignificant things your teacher asks you to do. Twinkle Twinkle? Sure! 5-finger patterns? OK! Believe it or not, it's the beginning levels of study that are the most important. So don't rush through these. Also, make sure your teacher knows that you don't want to skimp. Have them use a children's method book with you, since those move slower than most of the adult methods.


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## Mike Fox (Nov 15, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> Define "good"
> 
> Seriously, there are many factors that without working with you I can't even say. Factors include: natural talent, musical intelligence, amount of consistent practice time, willingness to learn, diligence in doing what is assigned, and lastly, how far you want to go/what specific goals are. Sometimes students will start with one goal and end up with another as they get into it.
> 
> ...



I think I would like to get to a certain level that allows me to play Philip Glass type stuff comfortably. My goal is to get to this level in 7 years, by the time I'm 40. Im sure I can dedicate at least an hour everyday to practice. Is that unrealistic?


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## Morodiene (Nov 15, 2016)

mikefox789 said:


> I think I would like to get to a certain level that allows me to play Philip Glass type stuff comfortably. My goal is to get to this level in 7 years, by the time I'm 40. Im sure I can dedicate at least an hour everyday to practice. Is that unrealistic?


No, I don't think so. At the beginning, I think you'll have a hard time practicing for an hour simply because the stuff you have to play won't take you that long. But as things get more complicated, you should be able to make good use of this time. 

I'm not a big proponent for practicing for long hours. Really no more than 2 hours is about the most that will be helpful, so starting out with 1 is fine. I'm not that familiar with Philip Glass' piano music, but from what I know of his vocal stuff, it's not too complex. What is of probably more value is Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Chopin, Bartok, Debussy, Ravel, etc...so much great music!!


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## Mike Fox (Nov 15, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> No, I don't think so. At the beginning, I think you'll have a hard time practicing for an hour simply because the stuff you have to play won't take you that long. But as things get more complicated, you should be able to make good use of this time.
> 
> I'm not a big proponent for practicing for long hours. Really no more than 2 hours is about the most that will be helpful, so starting out with 1 is fine. I'm not that familiar with Philip Glass' piano music, but from what I know of his vocal stuff, it's not too complex. What is of probably more value is Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Chopin, Bartok, Debussy, Ravel, etc...so much great music!!


Well that gives me hope! Thanks again for the advice.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 15, 2016)

Lots of good answers here.

Mine: when I'm thinking about music at all analytically, or even when I look at written music, I picture a keyboard even though I'm not a pianist.

For me, keyboard-as-tool skills are fundamental. But we're not all the same person, and lots of great composers don't have them.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 15, 2016)

Actually, it occurs to me that I'm cheating, because I was a pretty decent mallets player back in the day. And I did practice sightreading on piano a fair amount, plus you can't look at the mallet bars while you're reading, so maybe that's why it's become innate.

Well, I think there are different paths from the ear to the brain.


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## AllanH (Nov 16, 2016)

Anything that improves your musical skills will help with orchestration, including learning piano. Your teacher may also expose you to music you wouldn't otherwise have found, so a good teacher is always a plus. 

Playing primarily piano, I tend to develop my orchestration by playing lines on the keyboard, so for me having the skills "to play what I hear/want " is valuable. For me, it took quite a while to get to that level.


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## Dave Connor (Nov 16, 2016)

In fairness to earlier answers replying that piano playing ability is not necessary to the _orchestration_ process: that may be the best or most accurate answer. Pure orchestrating historically is dealing with an _existing_ composition. I think a lot of us here are so used to editing or tweaking our work that we automatically blend orchestration with composition but the fact is that orchestrating a piece of music has traditionally been more of a thinking process than a playing process (and perhaps remains that to a large degree.) Also _studying_ or _learning_ orchestration is not ultra dependent on playing either although one should understand that when a composer would send his latest symphony to a friend prior to recorded sound, that friend would play the symphony on the piano for a first hearing and ability to feedback. It is this primal dependency on the piano that informs many people's answers here.


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## ctsai89 (Nov 17, 2016)

I doubt it but if you were good at piano then you'd be good at improvising using virtual instruments and then you'd be able to see what the instruments can do. Being good at piano just helps a lot being a musician in general. Not necessarily orchestration.


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## Morodiene (Nov 17, 2016)

Dave Connor said:


> In fairness to earlier answers replying that piano playing ability is not necessary to the _orchestration_ process: that may be the best or most accurate answer. Pure orchestrating historically is dealing with an _existing_ composition. I think a lot of us here are so used to editing or tweaking our work that we automatically blend orchestration with composition but the fact is that orchestrating a piece of music has traditionally been more of a thinking process than a playing process (and perhaps remains that to a large degree.) Also _studying_ or _learning_ orchestration is not ultra dependent on playing either although one should understand that when a composer would send his latest symphony to a friend prior to recorded sound, that friend would play the symphony on the piano for a first hearing and ability to feedback. It is this primal dependency on the piano that informs many people's answers here.


You raise a good point here. A lot of times on this forum the term "orchestration" and "composing" go hand-in-hand, when in fact they are two different things. 

My composition teacher recommends that you come up with the form and the themes and basically you string together the entire piece using only the main instruments needed to get your ideas down, work out any modulations, connecting material, etc. Orchestration is what you do at the very end of the composing process - which is deciding which instruments do what part, and which ones are doubling, and a bit of part-writing where needed to accommodate individual instrument limitations. So the orchestration really goes quite quickly when done in this manner. Piano, in this definition, would not help orchestration.

However, piano can help the composition process in the part-writing, harmonic progressions, harmonizing a melody, and improvisation.


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## Mike Fox (Nov 17, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> You raise a good point here. A lot of times on this forum the term "orchestration" and "composing" go hand-in-hand, when in fact they are two different things.
> 
> My composition teacher recommends that you come up with the form and the themes and basically you string together the entire piece using only the main instruments needed to get your ideas down, work out any modulations, connecting material, etc. Orchestration is what you do at the very end of the composing process - which is deciding which instruments do what part, and which ones are doubling, and a bit of part-writing where needed to accommodate individual instrument limitations. So the orchestration really goes quite quickly when done in this manner. Piano, in this definition, would not help orchestration.
> 
> However, piano can help the composition process in the part-writing, harmonic progressions, harmonizing a melody, and improvisation.


In that case, I would definitely be more interested in developing my composition skills more than my orchestration skills. so It sounds like learning piano is the way to go?


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## Baron Greuner (Nov 17, 2016)

Playing the above one day, inspired the track below. Playing just about anything can get you going, apart from just sitting there playing with yourself.


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## AllanH (Nov 17, 2016)

mikefox789 said:


> In that case, I would definitely be more interested in developing my composition skills more than my orchestration skills. so It sounds like learning piano is the way to go?



I would take lessons on the instrument where I have the best ability to express my musical ideas. I know I'll compose, orchestrate, and play better on a piano than e.g. guitar, so that has naturally become my preferred instrument. If I were primarily a guitarist, I'd get a midi guitar kit and figure that out. _Get good at what instrument feels most natural and expressive._

I think I've now talked myself into taking lessons again


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## ZeroZero (Dec 9, 2016)

A good action on your keyboard is really important for your progress. Controller keyboards play like toys - they are OK for Synth Pads but this is all. If you want a MIDI keyboard with fantastic action, I recommend the Roland 700NX. This is an older model, so can be picked up cheap. It's very well built, it has a _very _classy action and (unlike many, even notable, keyboards) produces a full range of 128 MIDI messages per note. It also has a fine default concert grand sound, to my ears at least. 
I was a decent sax/trumpet/guitar player who could not play the piano. Last eight years I have hot-housed on the piano and can now play & impro fluently in any key. My knowledge of harmony has been hugely enhanced and I can visualise harmony better now - as keyboard mappings - this really helps. You can't see harmony well on a fretboard, or a sax, its the keyboard that maps it out in the mind. 

I think it was Miles Davis who quipped, when being asked how to play the trumpet "go and learn the piano".

Z


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## sprout (Jan 2, 2017)

I wish we could rate threads. This is among the most useful, on a "personal" level, that I've read. Thank you mikefox


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## snapeye (Jan 3, 2017)

I've played bass and guitar for going on 30 years, and have always had trouble understanding some of the more advanced music theory. One month ago I ditched my cheap MIDI keyboard controller and bought one of the better fully-weighted keyboards on the market. With it, I've learned more theory in this last month than I have in over ten years. Things just click. Testing modal mixture and modulations with both hands, hearing full chords, seeing the patterns...I realize now I was limited by my bass. I'm elated but feel stupid that I didn't do this a lot sooner. Learning piano will improve your compositions very quickly.

I'd like to echo what someone else said: get a decent keyboard, not a cheap MIDI controller. It made all the difference. It makes me want to sit at the keys and investigate, play, sketch, learn. You won't get that as easily with cheap plastic and groaning key springs. A good tool brings joy.

Also, I made the plunge after reading this thread or a similar one here. Thanks for that, everyone.


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