# Talking about Developers...



## jamwerks (Jun 4, 2016)

So maybe we could converse here about what we think about the "practices" of the different developers that we work with? What we like and don't like. What we think is fair or not fair.

This is a bit of a reaction to reading here as to the (good) progress of 8DIO with their "Century Strings".

What about Adagio-Agitato, and it's announced revamp? To me, Adagio feels like a product about 80% done. Feels like it was born of passion for providing a wealth of articulations, but in great neglect in taking the time to organize into a consistant instrument.

Someone here who had bought the recent 8Dio Aurora Percussion said it felt like an 80%-done product. That kind of rang a bell with me.

Imo, the main thing that's lacking is a usable gui. It's been about 2 years (?) since Agitato first starting coming out, with a much better controllability over sample management. Thought to myself "thank god", Adagio will soon get that treatment. But still not there.

8DIO is the only developer that has such an out-dated Kontakt interface. We still have to use un-customizable midi note keyswitches. Same with the entire Claire woodwind series. The gui for Agitato is still far behind Cinesamples, Orchestral tools, VSL, Spitefire and others, but at least articulations would become controllable.

8DIO obviously has numerous people working on Century Brass, and other numerous people working on Century Strings. I wonder if anybody is working on bringing some of their very recent library's up to an acceptable (imo) 2016 level.

OT spent money on developing "Capsule", Cinesamples has new articulation managment coming in CineStrings Solo, VSL VIP is just awesome, Spitefire has developed extensive art-management possiblities. What's up with 8dio.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 4, 2016)

Seriously? Have we not done this to death over the last few years?

Here is what I can tell you for a fact. As someone who worked for EW for a number of years I was nonetheless friendly with a lot of the Kontakt developers who I would talk to at NAMM and almost to a person, they talked to me about what a snake pit this place is. I am sure that you have noticed, most of them no longer participate in discussions here, only post commercial announcements and then answer product questions.

Please, let's _not_ create another "criticizing developers" thread.


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## tack (Jun 4, 2016)

I think product criticism is fair game but when the criticism crosses to the point of vitriol and making the place a "snake pit" which developers avoid, we've done the whole community a great disservice. I do feel that a post ending with "WTF's up with 8dio" has already crossed that line even in the very first post.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jun 4, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> As someone who worked for EW for a number of years I was nonetheless friendly with a lot of the Kontakt developers who I would talk to at NAMM and almost to a person, they talked to me about what a snake pit this place is.



So what?

Perhaps they expected that people on the internet would only ever say nice things about their stuff. Jeez, them poor things. Of course sometimes there's whining etc., but then again, there's at least just as much praise, excitement and displays of almost blind brand loyalty on this place. People whine and criticize, but they also praise and spend tons of money. You gotta roll with it either way.

Granted, I'm not sure if a "let's make a circle jerk about all our various gripes with devs" kind of thread is needed.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 4, 2016)

But that is always what it turns into here.


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## EvilDragon (Jun 4, 2016)

jamwerks said:


> OT spent money on developing "Capsule"




And what a CPU and RAM inneficient thing that is...


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jun 4, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> But that is always what it turns into here.



You do have a point.


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## Rodney Money (Jun 4, 2016)

I find the best way to speak to a company is with my money, and not purchasing the next, new shiny toy when it first comes out while they used their buyers as a Beta Team promising them updates. I've never understood why people spend their hard earn money on an "unfinished" product. I purchased CineBrass knowing that they did not have trombone true legato ensemble, and it's not CineSamples' faught but my own if they choose not to update it. Now if they want to go back, hire musicians, and record the legato transitions and offer it for free, then I should feel completely honored and not entitled. I will use the word "passionate" for this next sentence, the most passionate I've seen with this issue has been with Spitfire fanboys especially concerning their string libraries.

Since Cinesamples does not have trombone ensemble true legato, my very first and only Spitfire purchased so far has been Bones Volume 1 which I purchased for more than $400 which is basically just two patches: trombone a2 and bass trombone a2. In my personal opinion, for that price it should have come with trombone solo, true glissando transitions, straight, Harmon, and cup mutes, and time sync multiple-toungued passages, but do you see me complaining to Spitfire? No, because I knew what I was buying and live by, "You get what you get, and you don't pitch a fit." So how do I "speak" to Cinesamples and Spitfire? Do I blast them on a forum? No, I thank them for what they did make but now invest my money in Orchestral Tools and VSL, unless they come up with a library that simply suits my needs.


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## ysnyvz (Jun 4, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Here is what I can tell you for a fact. As someone who worked for EW for a number of years I was nonetheless friendly with a lot of the Kontakt developers who I would talk to at NAMM and almost to a person, they talked to me about what a snake pit this place is. I am sure that you have noticed, most of them no longer participate in discussions here, only post commercial announcements and then answer product questions.



I'm sorry but it looks like this to me:


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## 5Lives (Jun 4, 2016)

EvilDragon said:


> And what a CPU and RAM inneficient thing that is...



Isn't the point of Capsule that you can configure it how you want - and therefore, optimize RAM? I don't own any OT stuff, but am seriously considering their woodwinds and possibly strings.


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## airflamesred (Jun 4, 2016)

As Rodney sais, vote with your wallet. I haven't come across any deceitful developers I just think that commercially, they have to draw a line under a product and move on to the next.


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## tack (Jun 4, 2016)

ysnyvz said:


> I'm sorry but it looks like this to me:


While that GIF did make me laugh, I don't think the sample library business is quite so lucrative.


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## RiffWraith (Jun 4, 2016)

I am all for free speech, and going easy on the moderation, _however_....

I am going to humbly recommend that this thread get locked now, before it turns into something that_ needs_ to be locked.

Cheers.


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 4, 2016)

Why don't you just write to the developer? Also, a lot of the 8dio stuff can be tweaked under the hood to your liking.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Jun 4, 2016)

Here is to turning the thread into a non-locked status, what better ways then a quick joke:

A man got hit hard in the head with a can of 7up. He’s alright though, it was a soft drink

(I know: corny gag)

Or this one:

Q. Why do the French like to eat snails so much?

A. They can’t stand fast food.


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 4, 2016)

The way to turn it into a useable thread:

-more than one person have the same or similar complaints w a library

-solutions to fix or create workarounds 

-diy or dit. share patches (w/o samples of course)

I have some ideas about how to make some 8dio strings better and I've messed w patches but haven't gotten them to a place where they are 100% usable yet.


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## jamwerks (Jun 4, 2016)

Ok, I took out the "W..." I have contacted 8dio with my grievences.
I do find unethical that they admit Adagio needs some work, and 2 years later, still no fix is here, while at the same time the post about advancing on the "next-version" strings library.

How long can it take them to just update the GUI's of Adagio with the newer GUI (with CC art managament)? No time to do that?


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## tack (Jun 4, 2016)

jamwerks said:


> How long can it take them to just update the GUI's of Adagio with the newer GUI (with CC art managament)? No time to do that?


If you want to switch articulations by CCs, you could try something like FlexRouter to redirect CCs to whatever Adagio uses natively.


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## ysnyvz (Jun 4, 2016)

tack said:


> While that GIF did make me laugh, I don't think the sample library business is quite so lucrative.


Well, sample library business grew a lot. But that's not why I posted that GIF. 
8dio and Cinesamples left this forum. There are still a lot of threads about their products. People still discuss and recommend their products here. If forum members criticize them like this thread, that means people care about them. It's actually free marketing for them. Besides there is no other forum like this one. Sample libraries get a lot of attention here.


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## Zhao Shen (Jun 4, 2016)

Not sure why the thread should be locked. Is it unreasonable to criticize developers for their shortcomings? Yes, we composers can be a salty and even petty lot, but I think the point of posting on a forum is to express your own opinions...

Here's my take on 8Dio. It seems clear that they are becoming better and better. The latest alpha demos for Century Brass and Strings sound great. They've really upped the quality on their products. Development-wise, they're top-notch, and they put out an astounding number of products each year.

The non-development stuff is where they falter a bit. I think 8Dio would benefit most from improving V8P and their policy on updates.

I don't think the concept of V8P is good - it does give consumers a goal to strive toward and encourage spending, but it also causes some issues with 8Dio's decision-making: they can't release anything there that isn't expensive because it reaches a smaller audience, and similarly it can be hard justifying development expenses on V8P-exclusive products. That's why we had somewhat controversial topics such as the public release of Lacrimosa and Majestica. I can't speak to V8P's effectiveness since no one knows what sales would be like if there were no V8P, but personally I've never thought about it when considering an 8Dio purchase. What they could do to improve it? If they lowered the spending threshold for entry into V8P, it might not be as exclusive, but it also might be more lucrative. Then they'd have a larger V8P population that they could justify developing more products for. Or just get rid of the program. In both cases, they'd probably need to compensate current V8P members - a voucher would be a convenient option.

Update-wise, it seems like 8Dio is trying to do better? They've gone through and revamped the frame drums and taiko. In general though, they tend to stay away from updates. This is an problem because it gives off the impression that you're on your own after you buy their product. It's a weird thing to say because it's true of almost any other product that you shouldn't expect updates, free or not. But I think 8Dio would benefit a lot from updating libraries more frequently, especially since many of their major competitors do so. Capitalism, eh? Many would even welcome a reasonable price tag on an update, provided that the update adds some new samples and/or features. Don't think that'd be too hard for a company that's improved so much recently.

Anyway. Whether or not 8Dio changes these things, I'll still be a customer. Because the fact of the matter is that they produce quality VSTs, and some that are pretty unique. But those are just two things I'd like to see improved upon.


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## jamwerks (Jun 4, 2016)

I remember when BWW came out, Hendrik was apparently not 100% happy with his own product, and spent around 7 months redoing it. That is very responsible imo, and probably has something to do with OT's success as a company.


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## jamwerks (Jun 4, 2016)

tack said:


> If you want to switch articulations by CCs, you could try something like FlexRouter to redirect CCs to whatever Adagio uses natively.


Thanks for this! Didn't know something like this existed. That will solve a few of my problems!


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 4, 2016)

^Id say Audiobro/LASS is at the top of the pile there. A ton of elbow grease went into those updates. I haven't seen many complaints and you basically set it up however you want.


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## RiffWraith (Jun 4, 2016)

Zhao Shen said:


> Not sure why the thread should be locked. Is it unreasonable to criticize developers for their shortcomings?



Not at all. But these types of convos tend to not be reasonable, and are typically full of name calling, mud slinging, fallacies, and personal attacks on not only the devs, but other forum members as well. If everyone can remain respectful of everyone else, including the devs, and not lie about anything, then I am all in favor of a convo. But this forum's history shows that will almost likely not be the case.

Cheers.


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## jamwerks (Jun 4, 2016)

Well, that really set me off earlier, reading about their advances with Century Strings, so of course that means human beings there chopping samples, assembling, etc.

About 2-3 years ago, 8dio asked us what we wanted in an Adagio II, later came back saying they'd done the recording. Over a year ago they said they planned to update Adago (not sure this will include any new recordings), and combine Adagio and Agitato. Given all that's happened and been said by them concerning Adagio and Agitato, advancing on another string library before this update is out, to me seems wrong...


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 4, 2016)

^jamwerks, what are your main beefs with these libraries? The inconsistent layout? That they react uniformly like LASS/SF? That they only fit where the do and even then require elbow grease? What else?


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## wst3 (Jun 4, 2016)

Developers, at least the ones from whom I've purchased, do listen. They may not agree with what we say, and that's fine, they have their objectives, one of which may be to buy food<G>.

I have no issue with threads that critique, or even criticize a specific library IF the posts are clear and specific. I don't like library X because I don't like the sound, or I don't like how they handle articulations, or they are missing an articulation that is critical to me.

I'm on the fence about threads that critique or criticize a developer or a developer's business practices. On the one hand I'd like to know that getting support from developer X is difficult, or developer Y offers a money back guarantee, and which developers allow re-sale. On the other hand, it isn't my business, it isn't my livelihood, and while I am OK with asking "why don't you allow license transfers" I'm not ok with telling a developer that they should. And when it disintegrates to "you are a jerk because you don't allow license transfers" I think it's time to stop.

Part of the reason I visit VI-Control is to learn about the libraries - there are a lot of them out there! I can't buy them all to try them, and even if I could afford the money, I certainly don't have the time. So I try to find composers who seem to make music similar to what I'd like to produce, and I pay attention to what they use.

I miss the days when you could not swing a dead cat without hitting a developer. Back then I could ask all sorts of picky questions and get answers from the horse's mouth (was that enough animal references?)

For the record, I like Troels and company, and I've not yet had a bad experience with them. For the longest time Troels answered almost all of my support questions. Sometimes he told me I was expecting too much from a library, sometimes he gave me hints, and once he even guided me away from one library to to another, less expensive one, and his advice was spot on.

I have Adagietto and two of the Agitato libraries and I like them, but I run into a lot of the same issues that have been brought up here. I've had email conversations with 8Dio and I'm waiting to see what comes of it. I've almost purchased Agitato Legato Arpeggio a couple of times, but I'm holding off. Voting with my wallet? I don't know... being cautious maybe?

Back to the original question, a thread or even a section just for discussing libraries and developers... hmm, I think that's already covered.


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## jtnyc (Jun 4, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Seriously? Have we not done this to death over the last few years?
> 
> Here is what I can tell you for a fact. As someone who worked for EW for a number of years I was nonetheless friendly with a lot of the Kontakt developers who I would talk to at NAMM and almost to a person, they talked to me about what a snake pit this place is. I am sure that you have noticed, most of them no longer participate in discussions here, only post commercial announcements and then answer product questions.
> 
> Please, let's _not_ create another "criticizing developers" thread.



Off topic


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## Ashermusic (Jun 4, 2016)

ysnyvz said:


> Well, sample library business grew a lot. But that's not why I posted that GIF.
> 8dio and Cinesamples left this forum. There are still a lot of threads about their products. People still discuss and recommend their products here. If forum members criticize them like this thread, that means people care about them. It's actually free marketing for them. Besides there is no other forum like this one. Sample libraries get a lot of attention here.




Fine. If you want to be part of making this a place that developers loathe, I guess that is your right, but that is not a path I choose.


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## procreative (Jun 4, 2016)

I will only say that certain developers have lost my custom. Even when they have new products with "ground-breaking features" I look at the demos out of curiosity. But then I remember the previous hyperbole and use this to remind me.

Fact is buying a sample library is still a risk, you can watch all the walkthroughs, read all the reviews and opinions. But nothing can be that close to actually using it in anger and realising its flaws.

No refunds, no returns. So it can mean a lot of money wasted, or the need to find something better.

I do not believe I am entitled to free updates or extra content, but it does irk me when developers release new products covering the same ground as previous libraries without addressing major issues with existing ones.

These are business decisions and its totally their choice, but... sometimes it feels like we are paying to help them test out their ideas and refine them for new products.

PS Developers cannot loathe this place too much as they still advertise every release and its still better and more tolerant than many other forums such as Gearslutz!


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## Ashermusic (Jun 4, 2016)

They come here, announce the product, and then get the hell out. Those who have been here a long time, like me, remember when that was not the case. 

Believe me, they loathe it


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## Andrew Aversa (Jun 4, 2016)

Speaking as a developer AND a consumer... a big reason why VI became so popular is because of NorthernSounds moderation back in ~2004-2005. The issue there was that the forum was too heavily biased toward developers. You couldn't criticize some devs, and you couldn't even discuss libraries that weren't being advertised by developers on that forum. It made the forum inauthentic. What people - composers - want to do is speak truthfully about their experiences with products. So VI became the destination for that sort of authentic discussion, and NS died.

I honestly think that when developers are coddled and moderation is heavy-handed, it's a BAD thing for us devs in the long run. How many times have we had crummy experiences with purchases and commiserated with friends? Maybe in private, maybe on Facebook, or Twitter. We ALL do it, and it happens ALL the time. I've lost count of the number of Facebook posts I've seen starting with, "I'm fed up with ___ library, what's a better one?" If people don't feel they can be honest on a forum like this, they will just take their gripes up elsewhere. That badmouthing won't go away, it just moves.

And that's the problem. On a public forum like VI, or KVR, we (developers) have the opportunity to craft a thoughtful response, and in doing so, make a good impression on current and prospective customers. But if people don't feel they can talk openly here, they will just do it elsewhere, in places where we (developers) don't have the opportunity to respond. There are tons of chatrooms, invite-only groups, meetups, and feeds, that - while private - may be seen by dozens, hundreds, or thousands of people. So those complaints will most certainly be seen, and treated with perhaps even MORE weight than on a forum like this


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## Ashermusic (Jun 4, 2016)

Which would be fine if the members were also disciplined enough to "craft a thoughtful response" to the product, but too often it becomes either nitpicking, petulant ranting and hyperbole and sometimes, just plain nasty. People say things on the forum to a developer that they would never say to someone's face.

There are no perfect developers, no perfect products, and guess what" No perfect composers or users either. Whatever one writes should be with the recognition and as if:
1. These products are made by flesh and blood human beings who have pride in what they do and feelings.
2. You should pretend that the person is standing right in front of you and is 6'5" 250 lbs when you write what you write.

I don't know what the answer is, I am just telling you what every year for the last few years more and more developers have told me and it is evidenced by their obvious diminished participation other than promoting a product and answering a few questions, then disappearing as much as is possible while still selling.


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## tack (Jun 4, 2016)

Also, when developers receive criticism and respond to it in the most genuinely awesome way (as @zircon_st did in another thread where I criticized one of their products), it engenders a loyalty that is hard to acquire with _only_ high quality products.


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## catsass (Jun 4, 2016)

It's great to hear directly from a developer with a positive outlook on the subject. Thanks, @zircon_st!


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## AllanH (Jun 4, 2016)

zircon_st said:


> .... And that's the problem. On a public forum like VI, or KVR, we (developers) have the opportunity to craft a thoughtful response, and in doing so, make a good impression on current and prospective customers. But if people don't feel they can talk openly here, they will just do it elsewhere, in places where we (developers) don't have the opportunity to respond.



I think this is a very good perspective. At times, the "thoughtful response" is not satisfactory to the frustrated customer, and that is when it derails. 
I've certainly bought stuff that I now don't like, that I don't find playable, or that (imo) doesn't meet the expectations set by the developer. I have to say, I just let that slide and use what I can.


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## jtnyc (Jun 4, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Which would be fine if the members were also disciplined enough to "craft a thoughtful response" to the product, but too often it becomes either nitpicking, petulant ranting and hyperbole and sometimes, just plain nasty.



Nothing in the OP was nitpicking, petulant ranting or hyperbole and was not nasty in any way. Jay, your post started with "Seriously? Have we not done this to death over the last few years?". While that is not nasty, it's not very nice. How is that going to make the OP feel? It's you discounting everything he wrote and judging his post as poor behavior right off the bat. It's not constructive and in my opinion, the concept of censuring what people can say is just dead wrong anyway. Sure if it's offensive and downright rude, but again, that doesn't apply here. 

I'd rather see a forum where people can raise questions, share experiences both positive and negative about products and developers than one that doesn't. If that means some developers engage less, so be it. I'm always thankful when I'm considering buying a product and I come across people here raising issues and discussing that product and maybe even criticizing it, because maybe I've overlooked something and now I have more information to research and make a more informed decision.

Please keep your opinions coming VI'ers


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## Lode_Runner (Jun 4, 2016)

Strange, I have never found VI Control to be a 'snakepit'. Having spent time on KVR before I found this forum, I was struck by the general maturity and civility of most of the community here (I like KVR, but there is some real drama there).

I have seen the odd thread where particular developers have copped slack, often from new members who don't stay around for long, although oftentimes I see that it originates (not necessarily on VI Control) when a customer service rep provides a non-constructive response to genuine customer grievances.


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## Andrew Aversa (Jun 4, 2016)

VI can survive without developers, it can't survive without users. Otherwise you end up with NS. A sterile community with only devs/advertisers and no one to advertise to.

I wish I could show some of the discussions I've seen happening on my friends' walls. People talking about specific issues with libraries. Timbre, tuning, playability. Being off-put by marketing/advertising of companies. 

Other developers can loathe this forum all they want, but it's one of the few places they have to defend their products publicly. They *can't* defend themselves in many of these other forums. So would you rather people trash your product to their friends and colleagues, with no opportunity to say anything? Or interact with customers (current and potential) in a public forum where your responses are on record? I prefer the latter. But that's just my 2 cents. I was a VI user (and KVR, and NS) long before I was a developer.


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## prodigalson (Jun 4, 2016)

While I absolutely believe that people should be able to express most any view they want without censorship and I believe that developers should be able to take *reasonable *and *constructive* criticism with humility and provide a response when necessary, I also believe that with free speech comes the responsibility of being considerate with ones words. It's the nature of the internet that people feel entitled to say whatever they want with impunity and it's been clearly shown that when it comes to "reviews" and "opinions" on things people who have negative experiences and opinions are usually much more likely to post them than those who have positive ones. Look at Yelp, look at the threads here. For every single thread "thanking a developer" or expressing a positive experience with a developer/product there are 10 obnoxious "open letters" or "let's talk about developer X" threads. It doesnt mean more people have negative experiences, just that those that do are more likely to be overly vocal about them.

I'm all for people expressing their opinions because it does help everyone to a certain point BUT there are real human beings reading these things and at a certain point the law of diminishing returns must apply. I would advise people to think carefully about whether or not their sarcastic, rant-y "open letters" or "lets all talk shit on developer X" threads will actually inspire a developer to actually do anything productive in response.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 4, 2016)

Exactly, my feelings prodigalson and it will maybe now go that way in this thread for a _little_ while, because I raised the issue and people will want to prove me wrong. And believe me, I would be THRILLED to be proven wrong.

But my guess is sooner or later, more sooner than later, it will revert to form. If not this specific thread, the next one of its kind. Just watch. Snide comments aimed at developer's, hyperbolic statement about the products flaws, impugning their ethics in business practices, etc. will rear its ugly head.

Unless I am proven wrong. Here is my challenge to the community. Please, prove me wrong so that I have to come back a month from now and say, "whaddya know, I was wrong."


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## jemu999 (Jun 4, 2016)

I think some of the frustration comes with the nature of the beast of buying Software Samples. Namely, there are no refunds! 

In a world where almost anything you buy... a $5k Television at Best Buy to a $45 toaster at Walmart, to granite tiles at Home Depot, consumers are used to the fact that: If I don't like it, I can return it and get my money back in full. 

Unfortunately, there isn't yet this possibility with purchasing samples, thus leaving a consumer with no alternative on how to deal with their dissatisfaction of a product. Im sure all of us here have purchased this or that library only to find it wasn't what WE thought it was. If that dissatisfaction is such that we don't even use the library, well then you can see how one might feel their monetary loss as a stressful ordeal.

Now I think many developers are doing their best with walkthrough videos and such, and I encourage them to keep it up. However, even consumer products that have full money back refunds cannot expect their users to NOT to share their reviews of their products. If you are in business, you can expect praise... and complaints. Nothing wrong with users sharing their thoughts.


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## jtnyc (Jun 4, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Exactly, my feelings prodigalson and it will maybe now go that way in this thread for a _little_ while, because I raised the issue and people will want to prove me wrong. And believe me, I would be THRILLED to be proven wrong.
> 
> But my guess is sooner or later, more sooner than later, it will revert to form. If not this specific thread, the next one of its kind. Just watch. Snide comments aimed at developer's, hyperbolic statement about the products flaws, impugning their ethics in business practices, etc. will rear its ugly head.
> 
> Unless I am proven wrong. Here is my challenge to the community. Please, prove me wrong so that I have to come back a month from now and say, "whaddya know, I was wrong."



But non of that has happened in this thread, so you are wrong. And now, instead of the OP and the people interested in what he brought up having a reasonable discussion, you have derailed the thread (not the first time) into a discussion about people who are... "nitpicking, petulant ranting and hyperbole and sometimes, just plain nasty." Why are you saying these things here? Non of that has happened here. It's like you just want to re-litigate this issue where ever you see an opportunity. You obviously have a major issue with anyone bringing up anything negative about a product or developer, but it's completely unfair to reprimand people in this thread for something that they haven't done. People who weren't nasty or hyperbolic, who were just raising issues and concerns and looking for other opinions. 

If anything, one could say, Seriously? Are you bringing this up again? After seeing you do this over and over, I can only conclude that you enjoy it because you can't seriously think that your gonna convince the OP or anyone else here that it's bad practice to criticize a developer if they feel they were misled or if a product doesn't perform as advertised. That's part of what this forum is for, so if you want to go on about hyperbole and people being nasty, make your own thread because it doesn't belong in this one.


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## jamwerks (Jun 5, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> But my guess is sooner or later, more sooner than later, it will...


You really aren't bringing anything to this discussion. Maybe you could just not post?

As for the topic at hand, if I remember correctly, Troels and Colin pretty much quit posting here around the time when they were receiving lots of critique for how Adagio was laid out. Pretty much everybody was saying that the sound was great.

I've mentioned several times here that I love the sound of Adagio. The engineering is second to none. They do some of the best if not the best legato programming. Agitato is excellent. There are several 8Dio products that I plan to pick up. But moving forward with Century Strings before "finishing" Adagio seems totally unacceptable to me, thus this tread.

I'll add later some specifics about Adagio...


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## FriFlo (Jun 5, 2016)

jamwerks said:


> You really aren't bringing anything to this discussion. Maybe you could just not post?


You are asking the impossible ...


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## ysnyvz (Jun 5, 2016)

jamwerks said:


> I've mentioned several times here that I love the sound of Adagio. The engineering is second to none. They do some of the best if not the best legato programming. Agitato is excellent. There are several 8Dio products that I plan to pick up. But moving forward with Century Strings before "finishing" Adagio seems totally unacceptable to me, thus this tread.
> 
> I'll add later some specifics about Adagio...


We discussed that problem in Century Strings thread actually. At this point I'm not sure we can change anything. Personally I just moved to other developers.


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## Daryl (Jun 5, 2016)

I'm not sure that I understand the reason for having a thread criticising developers. Is it a place to collect the views of users and then send to the developer? In which case I would have thought that the developer would have already done this sort of things themselves, and if not, they're not interested in what the users think, so this thread would do nothing.

I understand exactly why developers find this place toxic. All products have problems, some greater than others. However, too many developers have, in the past, been so emotionally invested in their products that they have been unable to separate that emotion from rationality. I mean, nobody wants to hear that their baby is ugly, right?

However, the other problem is that most developers become developers through frustration with existing products, yet somehow forget this when they are on the other side of the table.

Obviously refraining from "facing" your critics is a situation that, in some ways, is easy. Yet I feel that when a developer is too busy protecting their income, rather than sorting our problems in their products, it inevitably backfires.

So, for me, I would rather that users create specific threads about a product, of they want to collect issues, and then appoint someone to pass it all on to the developer. or just do it themselves in private.


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## ysnyvz (Jun 5, 2016)

Daryl said:


> I'm not sure that I understand the reason for having a thread criticising developers. Is it a place to collect the views of users and then send to the developer? In which case I would have thought that the developer would have already done this sort of things themselves, and if not, they're not interested in what the users think, so this thread would do nothing.
> 
> I understand exactly why developers find this place toxic. All products have problems, some greater than others. However, too many developers have, in the past, been so emotionally invested in their products that they have been unable to separate that emotion from rationality. I mean, nobody wants to hear that their baby is ugly, right?
> 
> ...


I think OP wanted to talk about 8dio and Adagio. Maybe title is a bit misleading.
I agree. Their products can be their lifelong passion, but it's still a business.
If they see them as their babies, maybe they shouldn't clone and sell them on the internet.


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## Light and Sound (Jun 5, 2016)

I do think that constructive criticism towards a _product _is at times helpful, I haven't been doing this long enough to see my own business practices criticized, but I can imagine it feels a lot more personal against them as a person as apposed to a comment against a product. Just food for thought 

From a developer standpoint I certainly wouldn't want people to feel they couldn't speak their mind here about a product - yes, it can be very easy to get emotionally attached to ones products because we put a lot of time into them (think about how your directors are with their films, and magnify it a bit - that's how we are with our products - it is in our minds ALL day, every day), and sometimes the reason developers go silent is because everything is so visible. For a developer this forum is really an advertising dream, but a PR nightmare - everything you say in the heat of the moment (and we all know we've had times when we've been up late and feel a different way about something) becomes a complete reflection on the developer and how they do things. So everything needs to be carefully calculated and crafted to ensure you are not going to hurt business by saying one particular thing - and since it can be easy to get defensive about products, thus get emotional, sometimes silence is better.

Additionally, some negative comments aren't really seen as negative comments by the developer - but instead a comment about the product not "being a certain way", when in reality the product was never meant to do what that specific user wanted - so it's just outside the realms of the business model for that product. Naturally we want to make things as flexible as possible, and I do believe that we will get to a place where "one _can _fit all", but sometimes people can be looking for things that are just outside the realm of what they were trying to achieve.


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## Daryl (Jun 5, 2016)

Light and Sound said:


> For a developer this forum is really an advertising dream, but a PR nightmare - everything you say in the heat of the moment (and we all know we've had times when we've been up late and feel a different way about something) becomes a complete reflection on the developer and how they do things. So everything needs to be carefully calculated and crafted to ensure you are not going to hurt business by saying one particular thing - and since it can be easy to get defensive about products, thus get emotional, sometimes silence is better.


Which is why developers have to be professional about it. If you can't control your fingers in the heat of the moment, don't let them do the typing.


Light and Sound said:


> Additionally, some negative comments aren't really seen as negative comments by the developer - but instead a comment about the product not "being a certain way", when in reality the product was never meant to do what that specific user wanted - so it's just outside the realms of the business model for that product. Naturally we want to make things as flexible as possible, and I do believe that we will get to a place where "one _can _fit all", but sometimes people can be looking for things that are just outside the realm of what they were trying to achieve.


Agreed, but some developers also need to be honest about what their products can do, and what they can't, or are not designed to do. If this was more "up front" not only would they have fewer issues, but chances are that any lost sales would easily be made up by good online comments and reviews.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 5, 2016)

Daryl said:


> I'm not sure that I understand the reason for having a thread criticising developers. Is it a place to collect the views of users and then send to the developer? In which case I would have thought that the developer would have already done this sort of things themselves, and if not, they're not interested in what the users think, so this thread would do nothing.
> 
> I understand exactly why developers find this place toxic. All products have problems, some greater than others. However, too many developers have, in the past, been so emotionally invested in their products that they have been unable to separate that emotion from rationality. I mean, nobody wants to hear that their baby is ugly, right?
> 
> ...



Simple common sense approach IMHO, Daryl.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 5, 2016)

jtnyc said:


> But non of that has happened in this thread, so you are wrong. And now, instead of the OP and the people interested in what he brought up having a reasonable discussion, you have derailed the thread (not the first time) into a discussion about people who are... "nitpicking, petulant ranting and hyperbole and sometimes, just plain nasty." Why are you saying these things here? Non of that has happened here. It's like you just want to re-litigate this issue where ever you see an opportunity. You obviously have a major issue with anyone bringing up anything negative about a product or developer, but it's completely unfair to reprimand people in this thread for something that they haven't done. People who weren't nasty or hyperbolic, who were just raising issues and concerns and looking for other opinions.
> 
> If anything, one could say, Seriously? Are you bringing this up again? After seeing you do this over and over, I can only conclude that you enjoy it because you can't seriously think that your gonna convince the OP or anyone else here that it's bad practice to criticize a developer if they feel they were misled or if a product doesn't perform as advertised. That's part of what this forum is for, so if you want to go on about hyperbole and people being nasty, make your own thread because it doesn't belong in this one.




No I do not enjoy it, but I do it because it is the right thing to do and yes, derailing it was my intention. I did it before I worked for EW. I did it while I worked for EW. And I do it now that I no longer work for EW. And over the years a small number of people (granted, only a few) have written me, "You made me think about it." 

And that makes it worth while for me, quixotic task though it may be.


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## Hannes_F (Jun 5, 2016)

It is not the occasional rant that makes a place like this toxic from time to time. There are plenty of users with common sense and perspective thinking who easily balance this out.

Most of the unpleasentry is delivered by the types coming here with an agenda. Sometimes that agenda is disclosed, sometimes it is hidden, sometimes it may be unconscious. In any case, industry bailiffs and sock puppets tend to fuel controversies where they see them. Whenever somebody acts as if he is on a mission, repeats the same opinions over and over, is overactive at lots of topics etc. there is something to notice.

Not much need to point them out, they know themselves who they are and it is obvious to others too. I am not including the small to medium developers themselves into it that preserve their common sense, that is a different group alltogether.

BTW derailing threads is a sophisticated method of disinformation. Make them talk about yourself instead of the issue. I wished we would not fall so easily for it.


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## muk (Jun 5, 2016)

Your point has been duly noted, Jay. And I agree that it is important to stay civil. However, I strongly disagree that, because you fear an escalation, no critique should be voiced at all. My opinion is that as long things are expressed in a civil manner such threads must be possible. If things get out of hand - and only then - step in with moderation, or ultimately shut the thread down.

I guess you know that you can come across as a little self-righteous Jay? Wishing the other side would think about your point, but at the same time completely precluding that the other side could have a point as well. You know, some critique is valid, and you are trying to derail that because of prejudgement. That doesn't reflect very well on your position, in my opinion.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 5, 2016)

That is a very fair criticism muk, but when you are making a point it is best to be focused. And yes, I can be a self righteous prig, I know. It is not my most endearing trait and I need to work on that. 

But please, understand, I am not saying that developers and their products should be immune from criticism.

And neither do the developers I talk to. But their perception, and mine, is that in this forum people seem to focus on trying to find the flaws of the products rather than enjoying the strengths. And of course they really resent when their integrity is attacked.

And I think that you will concede that has happened a lot here and far more often than not until it gets really terrible there is no moderator involvement and when there is people criticize the moderation, because they want this place to be the Wild West.

I no longer work for any developer and I have no plans to ever be one, but I remember the days when a bunch of developers actually came here and participated in thoughtful discussions on sampling philosophies and it saddens me to see that has gone away.

Like Daryl, I see nothing potentially constructive about a, "talking about developers" thread.


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## AllanH (Jun 5, 2016)

I, for one, appreciate when developers participate. While I might have opinions on particular products, and posts them here (I've done that), I certainly don't expect the developer to "address" my opinion or acknowledge, and certainly not on a public forum (this is what support is for).

On a personal note: I took a fair bit of "off line" heat for posting a "first impression" that the developer didn't like. I made it clear that it was "one person's opinion" and even gave suggestions for how the product could fit my CC-based work flow better. So the issue works both ways.

I hope we can encourage developers to share their enthusiasm without attacking them if things don't work out exactly as anticipated.


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## tack (Jun 5, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> But their perception, and mine, is that in this forum people seem to focus on trying to find the flaws of the products rather than enjoying the strengths.


I don't have this perception. Sure there are always a number of ranty posts, but skimming this subforum for posts in the last month, what I see is that the majority of the posts are either positive (praise) or neutral (just asking about capabilities).

I also frequently see raging fanboism but of course nobody really complains about that.

Could it be that the negative posts are actually rare, but due to the emotional toll they take on developers and other people otherwise invested in those products, it only _seems_ like they are representative of the majority here?


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## Ashermusic (Jun 5, 2016)

tack said:


> Could it be that the negative posts are actually rare, but due to the emotional toll they take on developers and other people otherwise invested in those products, it only _seems_ like they are representative of the majority here?



I am not saying it is the majority, _far_ from it, but enough of a number that it has poisoned the well.


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## tack (Jun 5, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> I am not saying it is the majority, _far_ from it, but enough of a number that it has poisoned the well.


Do you think this is true even in recent times, say the past year or two? Sometimes I don't recognize what you describe in this forum, and I wonder if you're not carrying some baggage from days gone by.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 5, 2016)

tack said:


> Do you think this is true even in recent times, say the past year or two? Sometimes I don't recognize what you describe in this forum, and I wonder if you're not carrying some baggage from days gone by.




Hmmm, I will have to think about that. Maybe you are right and I am suffering from PTSD from my years as EW Lurker


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## ysnyvz (Jun 5, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Like Daryl, I see nothing potentially constructive about a, "talking about developers" thread.


Again, OP wanted to talk about Adagio update but you keep posting your off-topic opinions.
8Dio promised an update and still hasn't delivered. Instead they are making a new library. That's it.
What's with all this drama?


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## catsass (Jun 5, 2016)

With all due respect, it would appear the insistence that this thread would ultimately serve no worthwhile purpose, and would swiftly plunge into a steaming bucket of boiling [insert your summation here] was _precisely_ what accomplished just that. A bit of a self fulfilling prophecy, I would say.


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## muk (Jun 5, 2016)

Nice reaction, and a fair point Jay.


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## jtnyc (Jun 5, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> No I do not enjoy it, but I do it because it is the right thing to do and yes, derailing it was my intention. I did it before I worked for EW. I did it while I worked for EW. And I do it now that I no longer work for EW. And over the years a small number of people (granted, only a few) have written me, "You made me think about it."
> 
> And that makes it worth while for me, quixotic task though it may be.



It's the right thing to immediately change the subject (you were the first to respond) and lecture people about something that they themselves didn't do, because you somehow know that they are about to? That is deep. And the payoff for you is that over the years "a few" people wrote to you and said you made them think about it? Maybe you should put those numbers up against the amount of people who would prefer that you not purposefully derail threads and conflate them with behavior that they are not even engaging in. 

Again, being that no one in this thread was nasty, hyperbolic or condescending, your hijacking of the thread and pontificating about proper behavior on the internet within the context of this thread is inappropriate.


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## marclawsonmusic (Jun 5, 2016)

It's funny when threads like this come up, because anyone can point to a problem with developer X or product Y.

Then there are those who push past the limitations and make great music anyway. 

So, is it the craftsman or the tools? In 9 out of 10 cases I have seen, it is generally the craftsman. You can make nice-sounding music with pretty much any of these libraries.



ysnyvz said:


> Again, OP wanted to talk about Adagio update but you keep posting your off-topic opinions.
> 8Dio promised an update and still hasn't delivered. Instead they are making a new library. That's it.
> What's with all this drama?



If the topic is truly a beef with 8dio and Adagio, then perhaps the thread should be re-titled as such.


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## ysnyvz (Jun 5, 2016)

marclawsonmusic said:


> It's funny when threads like this come up, because anyone can point to a problem with developer X or product Y.
> 
> Then there are those who push past the limitations and make great music anyway.
> 
> So, is it the craftsman or the tools? In 9 out of 10 cases I have seen, it is generally the craftsman. You can make nice-sounding music with pretty much any of these libraries.


I think your point is a bit irrelevant here. Why? Because 8dio actually admitted that Adagio wasn't good enough. How? First they released Agitato series to make better and faster legatos.
Second when they announced Century Strings they actually said "We learned a lot of things so Century Strings will be better." Do you still think it's users' fault?



> If the topic is truly a beef with 8dio and Adagio, then perhaps the thread should be re-titled as such.


I wrote that at previous page:


ysnyvz said:


> I think OP wanted to talk about 8dio and Adagio. Maybe title is a bit misleading.


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## marclawsonmusic (Jun 5, 2016)

ysnyvz said:


> I think your point is a bit irrelevant here. Why? Because 8dio actually admitted that Adagio wasn't good enough. How? First they released Agitato series to make better and faster legatos.
> Second when they announced Century Strings they actually said "We learned a lot of things so Century Strings will be better." Do you still think it's users' fault?



No, that is not the user's fault.

But the first post had several examples describing how products were lacking features and things that weren't working for the user, so again my point is that anyone could level similar criticisms at any developer.

Yes, there is probably a place to discuss the Century Strings issue, but 'Talking about developers...' and listing general criticisms about GUI and whether a product is 80% done or <insert_issue_here>... is not very productive IMO.


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## Zhao Shen (Jun 5, 2016)

ysnyvz said:


> Again, OP wanted to talk about Adagio update but you keep posting your off-topic opinions.
> 8Dio promised an update and still hasn't delivered. Instead they are making a new library. That's it.
> What's with all this drama?


Spitfire promised a Solo Strings update and still hasn't delivered. So what? I'm a little bit irritated seeing as it was part of the reason I purchased that library, but over time I've learned not to hold developers at their word - the fact of the matter is that circumstances and agendas change over time.

Also, not sure if it's just me, but I've never really viewed Adagio/Agitato as a traditional orchestral library. It has a very distinct, modern-edged sound, and Century Strings seems to be going for the more traditional side of things. In that manner, Century Strings isn't really an upgrade to Adagio, but rather a library that fills a slightly different niche.

But yeah, wouldn't hold my breath for anything to happen to Adagio. 8Dio has over 200 VSTs in their catalog and has released a total of 9 major updates since early 2012.


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## marclawsonmusic (Jun 5, 2016)

To be fair, I tend to fall out on the side of @Rodney Money in that when I purchase a sample library, I don't expect it to improve over time. My expectation is I got what I bought and if it's not working as advertised, I will just have to live with it or chuck it in the trash bin. And I generally would not buy from that developer again.

I understand the frustration with the hype-versus-reality in the sample industry - I have been burned by it many times. But, I just vote with my pocketbook because so much of it is subjective anyway - what doesn't work for me might still work for 100's of other people.

IMO, it isn't very wise to buy something based on future improvements / enhancements. Even with the best of intentions, there are a million reasons why a developer might not deliver on that promise and it seems to me easier to just avoid that heartache in the first place. On the flip side, I wish developers wouldn't sell a product with promised future enhancements... but we all know this happens, so it's incumbent on users to have a 'buyer beware' mentality.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 5, 2016)

jtnyc said:


> It's the right thing to immediately change the subject (you were the first to respond) and lecture people about something that they themselves didn't do, because you somehow know that they are about to? That is deep. And the payoff for you is that over the years "a few" people wrote to you and said you made them think about it? Maybe you should put those numbers up against the amount of people who would prefer that you not purposefully derail threads and conflate them with behavior that they are not even engaging in.
> 
> Again, being that no one in this thread was nasty, hyperbolic or condescending, your hijacking of the thread and pontificating about proper behavior on the internet within the context of this thread is inappropriate.


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## jtnyc (Jun 5, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


>



That's a very clever quip, and kind of arrogant really, because your wrong. No one here behaved like you predicted. The fact is is that your interfering with this thread is what caused the thread to derail and go off topic and rehash this tired old line of yours, and create exactly the kind of thread you are supposedly opposed to. You fail or refuse to see the obvious in that no one in this thread was doing anything but politely expressing their opinions. You did the same thing a couple of months ago on The Sound Board and it was pretty much unanimously rejected and I fully reject it here.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 5, 2016)

Which is your perfect right that I fully support.


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## ysnyvz (Jun 5, 2016)

Zhao Shen said:


> Spitfire promised a Solo Strings update and still hasn't delivered. So what? I'm a little bit irritated seeing as it was part of the reason I purchased that library, but over time I've learned not to hold developers at their word - the fact of the matter is that circumstances and agendas change over time.
> 
> Also, not sure if it's just me, but I've never really viewed Adagio/Agitato as a traditional orchestral library. It has a very distinct, modern-edged sound, and Century Strings seems to be going for the more traditional side of things. In that manner, Century Strings isn't really an upgrade to Adagio, but rather a library that fills a slightly different niche.
> 
> But yeah, wouldn't hold my breath for anything to happen to Adagio. 8Dio has over 200 VSTs in their catalog and has released a total of 9 major updates since early 2012.


I wrote that as my thought about why OP created this thread. From my understanding he is expecting a better script. Apparently it turned to "Oh, no. Don't bash developers. They're leaving" thread for no reason other than Ashermusic's bad memories.
My point of view? I wrote in this thread already that I just moved to other developers. I spent $1000 on Adagio bundle back then. But I didn't buy Agitato and not going to buy Century. I lost my trust to their abilities and decisions.
So what? I didn't buy it for any potential update. I just wanted to use it. It irritated me everytime I tried. The only reason I haven't deleted it from my hard drive because 8dio promised an update. And yeah, I felt like a lab rat for their "learning process".


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## airflamesred (Jun 5, 2016)

ysnyvz said:


> I just wanted to use it. It irritated me everytime I tried. The only reason I haven't deleted it from my hard drive because 8dio promised an update. And yeah, I felt like a lab rat for their "learning process".


Can I ask what the irritation is with this lib?


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## Ashermusic (Jun 5, 2016)

I am never swayed from a position I take by the numbers of those who disagree or agree with me, but I CAN be swayed by a good, cogent argument.

So let me ask this. When a developer (whether the subject or not) reads:
"I spent $1000 on Adagio bundle back then. But I didn't buy Agitato and not going to buy Century. I lost my trust to their abilities and decisions.
So what? I didn't buy it for any potential update. I just wanted to use it. It irritated me everytime I tried. The only reason I haven't deleted it from my hard drive because 8dio promised an update. And yeah, I felt like a lab rat for their "learning process"."

Do you think they see that as:
a) Valuable feedback from a customer and a chance to learn something.
b) Fair and legitimate critique of a product that can lead to the product's improvement, or at least aq constructive discussion.
c) Ranting from a disappointed customer.
d) Developer bashing.
e) All of the above.
f) None of the above.

I am not stacking the deck, you can choose as many or as few as you like in your response.


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## ysnyvz (Jun 5, 2016)

airflamesred said:


> Can I ask what the irritation is with this lib?


Main problem is inconsistency. If you have obsessive personality about details like me, it can drive you crazy.
I posted that in Century Strings thread so I'm just going to copy it for you:



> It's not negativity, it's objectivity. I don't have Claire woodwinds but tried them with a friend. They have same inconsistencies like Adagio. Volume, dynamics, stereo image, reverberation, timbre, legato transitions, tightness, release tails etc. A lot of random problems. Some of them are related to recording techniques but some of them are there because of editing/programming.
> Making a sample library is a tiresome work. Recording a huge library with good players is just tip of the iceberg. Hard work comes after that. Have you ever edited/programmed samples for 10 hours almost everyday? I have. It was not fun like building hype on social media and it took a year.





Ashermusic said:


> I am not stacking the deck, you can choose as many or as few as you like in your response.


I'm not trying to read their minds like you. Zhao Shen responded to me and I shared my experience with it. They can see it anyway they want. They learned to make a better strings library. I learned not to buy from them again. Meanwhile they made money and I lost.


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## Andrew Aversa (Jun 5, 2016)

@Ashermusic: A through C. All of that is valuable. As a developer, writing off frustration & complaints as "bashing" is a great way to hurt your reputation. If it were one of my products on the end of that criticism I would take it very seriously.


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## Zhao Shen (Jun 5, 2016)

ysnyvz said:


> I wrote that as my thought about why OP created this thread. From my understanding he is expecting a better script. Apparently it turned to "Oh, no. Don't bash developers. They're leaving" thread for no reason other than Ashermusic's bad memories.
> My point of view? I wrote in this thread already that I just moved to other developers. I spent $1000 on Adagio bundle back then. But I didn't buy Agitato and not going to buy Century. I lost my trust to their abilities and decisions.
> So what? I didn't buy it for any potential update. I just wanted to use it. It irritated me everytime I tried. The only reason I haven't deleted it from my hard drive because 8dio promised an update. And yeah, I felt like a lab rat for their "learning process".


Fair point. Sounds like Adagio just didn't work for you. Century Strings... We'll see. As you said, it's probably unwise to expect anything other than what we get on release, but if you haven't touched 8Dio products in a while, I'd recommend you still take a look. They've definitely improved in quality.


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## playz123 (Jun 5, 2016)

Is this thread going anywhere or _really_ accomplishing anything...other than allowing a few individuals to vent and/or argue viewpoints? Having read through most of it, I think it's time for me, at least, to move on to something more enlightening, constructive and informative. That's just my opinion though. As for others....please continue on as you wish!


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## Ashermusic (Jun 5, 2016)

zircon_st said:


> @Ashermusic: A through C. All of that is valuable. As a developer, writing off frustration & complaints as "bashing" is a great way to hurt your reputation. If it were one of my products on the end of that criticism I would take it very seriously.



And that is why you are here as part of the discussions, which I think is great and I tip my hat to you for it. If more developers felt the way you do, I would be taking a different position, but in my talks with them, they do not.

And since it is my understanding that this forum was created to be a welcoming place for both users AND developers
(or am I fundamentally misunderstanding that?) I take the position I take.


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## ysnyvz (Jun 5, 2016)

Zhao Shen said:


> Fair point. Sounds like Adagio just didn't work for you. Century Strings... We'll see. As you said, it's probably unwise to expect anything other than what we get on release, but if you haven't touched 8Dio products in a while, I'd recommend you still take a look. They've definitely improved in quality.


Thanks. Maybe they can recover it with the update. I can change my opinion with open mind.

To clear things up, I don't "bash" developers. I gave positive feedbacks a lot about other products and developers in this forum. I sometimes shared demos and tried to be helpful when someone asked about libraries. And I did that without any benefit.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 5, 2016)

ysnyvz said:


> To clear things up, I don't "bash" developers. I gave positive feedbacks a lot about other products and developers in this forum. I sometimes shared demos and tried to be helpful when someone asked about libraries. And I did that without any benefit.



And also, to be clear, I am not accusing you of bashing.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 5, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Exactly, my feelings prodigalson and it will maybe now go that way in this thread for a _little_ while, because I raised the issue and people will want to prove me wrong. And believe me, I would be THRILLED to be proven wrong.
> 
> But my guess is sooner or later, more sooner than later, it will revert to form. If not this specific thread, the next one of its kind. Just watch. Snide comments aimed at developer's, hyperbolic statement about the products flaws, impugning their ethics in business practices, etc. will rear its ugly head.
> 
> Unless I am proven wrong. Here is my challenge to the community. Please, prove me wrong so that I have to come back a month from now and say, "whaddya know, I was wrong."


Jay, what's your response to hyperbolic statements by developers about their products? If you want to look at some reasons for vitriol (other than general bad behavior on the web) you might look to the trend of selling sample libraries with bloated, circus-like overblown sales techniques. Personally, I found that approach startling and off-putting, and the removal of those techniques from the general discussion has been a blessing.

You could also look at the over sensitivity of certain developers when it came to criticisms, and the need they felt to respond with a "we do all this for you and you have the gall to criticize us"- and then, of course, the inevitable fanboy defenses. 

Then you might look at the mistakes that were made by the forum management in protecting advertisers.

Lastly, I wonder if you can be totally objective about this subject given your many (as you make clear to us) direct relationships with developers. As an owner of many EW products, I feel I have the right to say that they've richly earned their positions as both an attractor of defenders for their fine products and as a lightning rod for their customer interactions. Fine job you did for them notwithstanding, there was a lot of legitimate flak-catching to do....so overall, there were bound to be strong opinions on both sides.

Considering all of these legitimate concerns might help provide a balanced approach to what I sometimes believe is a knee jerk response in your overall defense of developers.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 5, 2016)

All fair points Larry, but since the balance of those who see it as I do is so heavily weighted the other way in my view, I see myself as a counter-balance.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 5, 2016)

I'm good with that. It makes for worthwhile debate.


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## bigcat1969 (Jun 5, 2016)

Odd thread of the month? As the world's least important (and least wealthy) developer, the various forums are incredibly useful to me. Though I haven't always taken all criticisms well (erm... yeah), I've hopefully learned from mistakes pointed out and make better instruments now. I've also bumped into great advice, encouragement and a number of collaborators on forums and this has played big part in many of the things I've put out. I've also made some promises I've yet to keep and fallen down it many areas and it is very easy to over promise. 

While it can be tough, the direct feedback is very useful and I think the big developers ignore it at their own risk. This is an over-saturated market (what do we have 50 orchestras and string sections?) and I would think that developers who simply can't be bothered with their consumers run the risk of lost sales and possibly going out of business.


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## Daryl (Jun 6, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> All fair points Larry, but since the balance of those who see it as I do is so heavily weighted the other way in my view, I see myself as a counter-balance.


Jay, there is one huge difference between the users and the developer. The developer wants our money. That means the scales are already hugely weighted in favour of us, and quite rightly. They advertise a product. It is faulty. We are entitled to complain.

Now you can argue that products are not faulty, just not designed to do the job they are being asked to do, but you know as well as I do that things like being out of tune, bad edit points, wrong notes in the release tail of samples etc. cannot be brushed off so easily.

I still maintain that there is no point in a thread to criticise developers per se, as these sort of things are often better done in private, but having seen the reaction of some developers when even the most obvious faults are pointed out, the idea that it is somehow the user that makes "this place" toxic is not quite accurate. One could even go so far as to say that the toxicity wouldn't exist if the products were of a better standard in the first place.


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## vicontrolu (Jun 6, 2016)

Just read the first post. Can´t believe this thread has evolved that much. 

This is the internet pals, a great forum, but still the internet. How can anybody come here and not express his opinion on something? I agree we cant have threads like "8Dio you suck" cause this would make the forum suck, but they guy is developing his complaints, with proven facts, etc..whats wrong about it? Is it because he typed "wtf"? For christ´s sake..


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## rocking.xmas.man (Jun 6, 2016)

the question is if any developer can have any interest to find his name right next to some guys stating this product or that developers way of support is bad. Many developers did decide to cut their involvement in this forum down to the announcement section. This is because if there are threads about problems with a library a developer might not have been aware of the developer could maybe get out of the discussion in a positive way. But as soon as there is a discussion about handling updates and so on a developer is definately in a lose-lose situation. If there are guys stating that it's bad business the customers only get what they pay for and not a lifetime of free updates containing everything the customer understands as something that should have been inclueded but never was - then there is simply no way to get out of the discussion without leaving a bad taste. Even if there is nothing wrong.
Generally its hard for developers to have their names over here where regularly questions like 'how can i achieve this' are answered with 'buy that product, the one you have can't do that right', followed by 'yeah they never fixed that' followed by 'i use this and that for that kind of suff but if the moon shines very bright that product keeps sounding a bit smeary' followed by 'didn't they say there was an update coming to fix that two years ago?' ... 'yeah ok. i'll stay away from that developer than'
honestly that is how I feel about many discussions here. OT_Tobias told us why they shut down their forum - all the stuff someone types here - beeing wrong or right will be found when you google a developers name and a product. you'l find many things that sound like facts but are simply wrong because someone did not know about how to use some features - no problem, it's just a community of composers discussing that very knowledge. As soon as there is a developer's name attached to discussion somewhere you get to the point a potential buyer could take some of those things as official statements.


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## jamwerks (Jun 6, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> All fair points Larry, but since the balance of those who see it as I do is so heavily weighted the other way in my view, I see myself as a counter-balance.


If we had moderators like at GearSluts, all of your posts here would have been deleted. Your religious-like "counter balancing" is nothing but pollution. You're the reason that I stopped reading Logic Pro threads on GS. Why don't you just go join a church, and carry out your moral rectification, and leave the rest of us alone?...


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## NYC Composer (Jun 6, 2016)

rocking.xmas.man said:


> the question is if any developer can have any interest to find his name right next to some guys stating this product or that developers way of support is bad. Many developers did decide to cut their involvement in this forum down to the announcement section. This is because if there are threads about problems with a library a developer might not have been aware of the developer could maybe get out of the discussion in a positive way. But as soon as there is a discussion whether handling updates and so on a developer is definately in a lose-lose situation. If there are guys stating that it's bad business the customers only get what they pay for and not a lifetime of free updates containing everything the customer understands as something that should have been inclueded but never was - then there is simply no way to get out of the discussion without leaving a bad taste. Even if there is nothing wrong.
> Generally its hard for developers to have their names over here where regularly questions like 'how can i achieve this' are answered with 'buy that product, the one you have can't do that right', followed by 'yeah they never fixed that' followed by 'i use this and that for that kind of suff but if the moon shines very bright that product keeps sounding a bit smeary' followed by 'didn't they say there was an update coming to fix that two years ago?' ... 'yeah ok. i'll stay away from that developer than'
> honestly that is how I feel about many discussions here. OT_Tobias told us why they shut down their forum - all the stuff someone types here - beeing wrong or right will be found when you google a developers name and a product. you'l find many things that sound like facts but are simply wrong because someone did not know about how to use some features - no problem, it's just a community of composers discussing that very knowledge. As soon as there is a developer's name attached to discussion somewhere you get to the point a potential buyer could take some of those things as official statements.



And none of this is counterbalanced by the many, many positive, even sychophantic posts made about the same product or company that can ALSO be found on Google? This strikes me as illogical.

You know what's really hard for developers? Obscurity. No one knowing the product exists. This forum and others like it are an antidote to obscurity, and developers are lucky to have them. The other side of that coin is this:with all the grumbling and unfair criticism comes some objective points of view by fair minded people. Without critical discussion, this becomes a place of happy talk with less credibility than it has now.


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## mc_deli (Jun 6, 2016)

jamwerks said:


> If we had moderators like at GearSluts, all of your posts here would have been deleted.


This is what I was thinking.
I find it bizarre that a thread like this is not moderated. 
Firstly, the OP could have been moderated, along with the title.
Secondly, the off topic posts could have been moderated.

These mod actions are expected and useful in threads like this, in fora like this. And mod actions would benefit the community here.


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## zacnelson (Jun 6, 2016)

Just to return to the earlier posts about 8dio Adagio etc, today this was posted on the 8dio facebook page: "We've received some questions in regards to our Adagio and Agitato Series. As we mentioned earlier in the year we are working on a very large update to both series, which will be embedding a lot of the same principles we are applying to our upcoming Century Strings collections. We want to underline our commitment to both product lines and Adagio/Agitato updates will be released BEFORE we release any Century String products. If you have any other questions just ask us and we will get it cleared up in this post."


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## procreative (Jun 6, 2016)

I truly understand how hard it is to produce a sample library and the ensuing testing to find issues. I also fully understand that criticism is hard to accept on something they may have sweated over for months if not years.

The problem for end users falls into two parts:

1. Flaws or bugs in a library e.g. flaws like inability to move keyswitches or bugs such as out of tune notes or unacceptable noise.

2. Features that do not work as promised or content promised never materialising.

The first one is irritating but not a deal breaker, the second becomes hard to take when developers move on to almost identical libraries with "improved" features, that should have been fixed for the first library.

I for one take note of how close the reality has been over the promises. It has led me to ignore certain developers completely and others to analyse much more carefully, no matter how much excitement other posts are about their upcoming library.

I think it is absolutely the right thing to raise these concerns in an independent forum, as long as it is done in a polite manner. Potential buyers can at least decide if the pros outweigh the cons. It also gives everyone a picture on how much developers stick to their promises and sales patter.

Developers can do what they like, but if this involves leaving buggy or inconsistent products without fixes free or paid, then I think that we should at least be able to know about this.

Its very hard to be really sure about reviews or posts that praise libraries as we do not always know the true position of those that post or review as they may have received NFRs or worse be "schills" under another guise.

Unlike most products we purchase, we cannot get a refund after all or a repair "under warranty".


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## StatKsn (Jun 6, 2016)

I actually like 8Dio's rather simple GUI, as complexity sometimes means (to me) less focus, but I do miss legato sample start feature for ye olde Adagio.

I personally found 8Dio to be getting better and better, and they provided a few surprise updates to existing products recently. But they maintain their character which I would describe as "caprice" - in other words, they still more likely than not to forget what they have promised, or move on to something else (what happened to V8P true legato/bonus patch updates still written in the page "coming Q4/2014" "Q1/2015" etc?). And while they almost always overpromise, I don't think they have malicious intentions.


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## Tfis (Jun 6, 2016)

I would like to see more developers giving their (potential) customers the possibility to "test-drive" their products first and/or allow re-selling "used" libraries.

A lot of complaining wouldn't happen then.


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## Haakond (Jun 6, 2016)

Tfis said:


> I would like to see more developers giving their (potential) customers the possibility to "test-drive" their products first and/or allow re-selling "used" libraries.
> 
> A lot of complaining wouldn't happen then.


I agree. Also, if you buy 8Dio products with educational discount, you can't use them for commercial purposes. As a student I would like if they changed their mind on this


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## re-peat (Jun 6, 2016)

Daryl said:


> One could even go so far as to say that the toxicity wouldn't exist if the products were of a better standard in the first place.




A point that is discussed far too rarely and which is, in my opinion, a big part of the problem: the quality of sample libraries is often simply not good enough.

I know of no other field of commercial endeavour where the buyer has to accept — with meek resignment — that a product, for which good money was payed, might either be not finished, flawed, through-and-through buggy or in no way capable of the claims it was sold with.

And for some bizarre reason, we — the paying customers — are expected to accept all that. And we’re also expected to muster the polite and considerate patience to wait and wait and wait for months, sometimes years, in the hope that corrective updates might materialize. (We even have to accept that these updates never materialize at all.)
Moreover, if we dare say something about this, and happen to have the audacity to use words which betray a fraction too much disappointment, frustration or irritation, we’re branded ungrateful and uncivil whiners.

Why is that? Why has this totally absurd, unjust — and, I suspect, in some cases borderline illegal — state of affairs become the accepted norm?
And why are ‘respect’ and ‘professionalism’ deemed prerequisites when users talk to, or about, developers, but why do these same paying users have to tolerate to be treated without a hint of respect and professionalism by developers who sell them substandard, flawed or unfinished product?

If I buy professional graphic design software, I know it’ll work. At worst, there may be a few little bugs here and there, sure, but certainly nothing so crippling as to compromise the overal quality and functionality of the package. If I buy professional hardware, it works. If I buy just about anything other than music software and that carries the tag ‘professional’, I can rest assured that a professional product, fully answering to the definition with which it was sold, is indeed what I will have purchased.
If however I buy a so-called ‘professional’ sample library, entire sections might be badly out of tune, articulations might be missing, instruments might suffer from being poorly recorded, samples might be edited sloppily, the programming might be all off, certain functions might work erraticaly or not work at all, the library might be frustratingly incomplete, the package might still be in alpha- or beta-shape and in dire need of urgent updates and revisions, …

And we’re supposed to find all this perfectly normal and acceptable? And remain gentlemanlike and courteous towards the developer at all times? And if we don’t and we vent our dissatisfaction instead, we’re accused of childish ranting, inordinate negativity, or suspected of having some sinister agenda towards the developer?

Seriously, transplant the ongoing practices and malpractices that we are asked to accept as normal when it comes to sample library developing (and -selling), to *any* other brand of commercial activity, and we would be talking serious law suits and other legally enforced unpleasantness, and on a pretty big scale too. And all perfectly justified.
But not so in sample library land where just about anything is allowed as long as the developer is respectfully kept out of harm’s way.

Considering the overal lamentable quality of what I have been sold as ‘professional product’ (sample-library-wise, that is) in the last two decades, forgive me for being of the opinion that many developers get off very lightly. Very lightly indeed. Save a handful of exceptions, I have little or no respect for the guild whatsoever.

_


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## Ashermusic (Jun 6, 2016)

OK, I said that my mind can be changed with a good cogent argument. Piet, you have written something so logical here that I really need to think about it.


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## Pablocrespo (Jun 6, 2016)

I am with Piet on this one, regardless of the tone and development of this thread.


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## Hanu_H (Jun 6, 2016)

Hi guys,

I think devs need to seperate their emotion from business and use the huge potential at this forum. When I write a song to a customer, sometimes they say pretty nasty things if they don't like it. What do I do? I suck it up and write it again(even if you think that your idea was better...). Devs are alive thanks to customers and nowdays you have to do everything to get customers.

Also the industry has changed a lot and some devs are advertising their libraries as living libraries. That requires regular updates. I've been thinking what is going on at CineSamples, they interacted with the community a lot when they wanted to know what people want to see in CineBrass. Update was promised, but never delivered. This was about 3 years ago. I think that the 1.6 was really a step in the wrong direction and I am still using 1.1. I think Spitfire has fallen in the same pit as well and has produced too many libraries in too short time, promising new mics, unified interfaces, etc. If this type of update comes after 3-4 years, it's a pretty long wait for something that you already paid for...That is another reason why I love Audiobro, they make amazing products and they don't promise any updates. Few years later and BAM, they update the library totally.

-Hannes


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## Ashermusic (Jun 6, 2016)

Wow, the power of a well reasoned argument! Piet has changed my point of view on this with his inescapable logic. 

I still think that hyperbole and ranting have no place in adult discussions, but his argument that there is no reason that software developers products and the developers themselves should be held to a lesser standard than any other products we buy or the people we buy them from is again, inescapable logic to me.

I will no longer be chiding people for their criticisms of developers and their libraries, although I may well disagree with specific opinions of course and probably personally will be forgiving of flaws, because I tend to be that way in all areas of my life, being highly imperfect myself and therefore wishing to be cut some slack.


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## jononotbono (Jun 6, 2016)

zacnelson said:


> Just to return to the earlier posts about 8dio Adagio etc, today this was posted on the 8dio facebook page: "We've received some questions in regards to our Adagio and Agitato Series. As we mentioned earlier in the year we are working on a very large update to both series, which will be embedding a lot of the same principles we are applying to our upcoming Century Strings collections. We want to underline our commitment to both product lines and Adagio/Agitato updates will be released BEFORE we release any Century String products. If you have any other questions just ask us and we will get it cleared up in this post."



Wonderful!


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## EvilDragon (Jun 6, 2016)

re-peat said:


> I know of no other field of commercial endeavour where the buyer has to accept — with meek resignment — that a product, for which good money was payed, might either be not finished, flawed, through-and-through buggy or in no way capable of the claims it was sold with.



Games. Soooo many games are exactly that - buggy, unfinished, flawed, etc. Not to mention they usually install some form of intrusive DRM, often much worse than iLok or the likes.

Or some 3D software. 3D Studio Max still has issues with crashing all the time and corrupting files etc. And this is a "professional" product. Don't get me started on Adobe, please, too. The amount of shit they try to install on your machine which doesn't have to do anything with one single product of theirs you might want to use is staggering. Some shady practices there... There are examples elsewhere as well...

Just to counter a point. It's not that this kind of practice happens solely in our little sample library world.


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## AmbientMile (Jun 6, 2016)

Hanu_H said:


> ....When I write a song to a customer, sometimes they say pretty nasty things if they don't like it. What do I do? I suck it up and write it again(even if you think that your idea was better...). Devs are alive thanks to customers and nowdays you have to do everything to get customers...



Couldn't agree more with this. And isn't it true about most things? I worked as a graphic designer for a VERY demanding boss years ago. He would need to edit every design and project I brought to him, sometimes a lot, sometimes just a tiny bit. I knew that many times I had it right, but what could I do? The man who paid me said change it, so I changed it. Being unbending in my "art" would have just made the boss move on to another graphic designer and I would have been out of a job.


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## AmbientMile (Jun 6, 2016)

I also want to add on a personal note, that I found this thread to be amazing. No useless insults thrown, and very well written arguments for both sides. THIS is why I love this forum!


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## kitekrazy (Jun 6, 2016)

EvilDragon said:


> *Games. Soooo many games are exactly that - buggy, unfinished, flawed, etc. Not to mention they usually install some form of intrusive DRM, often much worse than iLok or the likes.*
> 
> Or some 3D software. 3D Studio Max still has issues with crashing all the time and corrupting files etc. And this is a "professional" product. Don't get me started on Adobe, please, too. The amount of shit they try to install on your machine which doesn't have to do anything with one single product of theirs you might want to use is staggering. Some shady practices there... There are examples elsewhere as well...
> 
> Just to counter a point. It's not that this kind of practice happens solely in our little sample library world.



It's beyond bad. Everything for PC was a game console port. In the gaming world they would like to do away with PC but it still remains the #1 gaming platform. The most hated developers are Ubisoft and EA.


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## kitekrazy (Jun 6, 2016)

Hanu_H said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> *I think devs need to seperate their emotion from business* and use the huge potential at this forum. When I write a song to a customer, sometimes they say pretty nasty things if they don't like it. What do I do? I suck it up and write it again(even if you think that your idea was better...). Devs are alive thanks to customers and nowdays you have to do everything to get customers.
> 
> ...



Ways to handle that are either to hide or get out of it. It really isn't that different in any other industry since we live in the entitlement,instant gratification,the customer is always right, culture.


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## StatKsn (Jun 6, 2016)

Graphic software - from 2D to 3D to video editing to material to motion editing - has even worse glitches I usually see in sample libraries. At least, your DAW won't crash, make your project unloadable, do a serious mess with the other parts etc. when the sample is out of tune


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## NYC Composer (Jun 6, 2016)

I wouldn't expect developers to defend every flaw in a public forum, getting into ego- based cat fights and wasting an awful lot of time that could be spent productively. I was, though, astonished at the martyred aspects that were promulgated (and defended by many!) when serious flaws or very late delivering occurred. It's not just a problem of unfinished or flawed products, there's also an attitude problem. If I give my client a piece of music that has bits of digital distortion or extraneous talk on the vocal track, I fix it and fall all over myself apologizing.


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## Rodney Money (Jun 6, 2016)

Hey, samples are never out of tune, they are simply showing "character" and adding to the "realism."


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## Johnny (Jun 6, 2016)

Hanu_H said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I think devs need to seperate their emotion from business and use the huge potential at this forum. When I write a song to a customer, sometimes they say pretty nasty things if they don't like it. What do I do? I suck it up and write it again(even if you think that your idea was better...). Devs are alive thanks to customers and nowdays you have to do everything to get customers.
> 
> ...


Project Sam as well, years later they'll surprise us with an update stating that all three Symphobias have been made even better- for free : )


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## mc_deli (Jun 6, 2016)

re-peat said:


> A point that is discussed far too rarely and which is, in my opinion, a big part of the problem: the quality of sample libraries is often simply not good enough.
> 
> I know of no other field of commercial endeavour where the buyer has to accept — with meek resignment — that a product, for which good money was payed, might either be not finished, flawed, through-and-through buggy or in no way capable of the claims it was sold with.
> 
> _


Well, you need to go and have a look at the business-to-business software-as-a-service sector. Piled high with unfinished, buggy software. These software services that need SLAs - they need SLAs because the services fail, they fall over, there is downtime, they do not work periodically. SaaS is in a far worse state than sample libraries - and the sector gets massive private and state investment - and buyers are used to the services not working - and the software is often mission critical, so not working means business critical.

You are getting off lightly with a few dodgy tails and sloppy scripting!


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## lachrimae (Jun 6, 2016)

The subject really should be 
*Talking about Talking about Developers*

I don't know of any other industry where you can buy a product that can't be demo'd (hands on), can't be returned, and can't be re-sold. In my opinion it's a borderline shady practice that will eventually change when the people who are spending their hard-earned money realize that it's not acceptable.

I don't always stick to the following (regretfully), but I do my best to avoid buying unless _at least one_ of the following conditions is met:
1) Cheap (subjective... but I mean <$50)
2) Allows refunds (within a reasonable ~1-2 week time-frame)
3) Allows demos (hard to do with sample libraries)
4) Allows transfers (reasonable fee, ~10% of purchase price or less?)

The only way to force a policy change is through buying habits...


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## prodigalson (Jun 6, 2016)

lachrimae said:


> The subject really should be
> *Talking about Talking about Developers*
> 
> I don't know of any other industry where you can buy a product that can't be demo'd (hands on), can't be returned, and can't be re-sold. In my opinion it's a borderline shady practice that will eventually change when the people who are spending their hard-earned money realize that it's not acceptable.
> ...



It's also hard to change buying habits when the vast majority of an industry adheres to one policy. It's hard to expect the majority of consumers to just stop buying products they want when 90% of developers have the same policy.


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## lachrimae (Jun 6, 2016)

prodigalson said:


> It's hard to expect the majority of consumers to just stop buying products they want when 90% of developers have the same policy.



You're absolutely right, and perhaps I'm being overly optimistic... but I reward companies with fair policies in hopes of growing their business and market share. It may take a (looong) while, but I don't think the policies of the 90% will last.

A side-effect of fair policies is that people feel less trapped and therefore less likely to create ranting posts. If the purchaser has the ability to test before buying, return within a reasonable time, or resell the product, they take some responsibility for their own experience and have less ground to stand on when it comes to complaints. In other words, draconian policies create... dragons. (sorry, I'll get my coat)


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## james7275 (Jun 6, 2016)

EvilDragon said:


> Games. Soooo many games are exactly that - buggy, unfinished, flawed, etc. Not to mention they usually install some form of intrusive DRM, often much worse than iLok or the likes.
> 
> Or some 3D software. 3D Studio Max still has issues with crashing all the time and corrupting files etc. And this is a "professional" product. Don't get me started on Adobe, please, too. The amount of shit they try to install on your machine which doesn't have to do anything with one single product of theirs you might want to use is staggering. Some shady practices there... There are examples elsewhere as well...
> 
> Just to counter a point. It's not that this kind of practice happens solely in our little sample library world.



You are probably right about other forms of software having their issues as well. I don't know about games but the 3d software you mentioned at least has a 30 day trial period.? And I know adobe allowed resale before they changed over to subscription model.
I don't think most people are just arguing buggy software, they're arguing the fact that it's buggy, or not up to the level where it should be and they are now forever stuck with it.


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## StatKsn (Jun 6, 2016)

For a playable demo for virtual instruments, octave/scale-limited demo (Pianoteq and Agitato did this) worked pretty well for me.


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## Daryl (Jun 7, 2016)

mc_deli said:


> You are getting off lightly with a few dodgy tails and sloppy scripting!


Except that when software doesn't work you are entitled to a refund. This is not the case with a sample library, even though it may be the software component that is not working.


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## lucor (Jun 7, 2016)

EvilDragon said:


> Games. Soooo many games are exactly that - buggy, unfinished, flawed, etc. Not to mention they usually install some form of intrusive DRM, often much worse than iLok or the likes.
> 
> Or some 3D software. 3D Studio Max still has issues with crashing all the time and corrupting files etc. And this is a "professional" product. Don't get me started on Adobe, please, too. The amount of shit they try to install on your machine which doesn't have to do anything with one single product of theirs you might want to use is staggering. Some shady practices there... There are examples elsewhere as well...
> 
> Just to counter a point. It's not that this kind of practice happens solely in our little sample library world.



You're right, but there is still one major difference: games and these professional software packages you mentioned all have either demos to try them out beforehand or can be refunded after buying them. Even Steam has a refund policy now. With a very few exceptions (shoutout to @Mike Greene) none of that is possible with most sample libraries, hell in many cases you aren't even allowed to at least re-sell them if you don't like them. Still blows my mind how this is possible and not borderline illegal, and how consumers are still quietly accepting it.


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## Daryl (Jun 7, 2016)

lucor said:


> Still blows my mind how this is possible and not borderline illegal, and how consumers are still quietly accepting it.


No, it's not illegal, and not even close. We only have a license to use the samples, as they are recordings, so are not classed as software. For example, when you sell a licence to use a recording of your music to a TV production company that licence is not transferable. This is exactly what happens with a sample library. You have a non-transferable licence. I have no problem with this. What I do have a problem with is that one can't get a refund for a shoddy product. This should be illegal.


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## airflamesred (Jun 7, 2016)

There is try pack for part of agitato


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## EvilDragon (Jun 7, 2016)

Daryl said:


> No, it's not illegal, and not even close. We only have a license to use the samples, as they are recordings, so are not classed as software. For example, when you sell a licence to use a recording of your music to a TV production company that licence is not transferable. This is exactly what happens with a sample library. You have a non-transferable licence. I have no problem with this. What I do have a problem with is that one can't get a refund for a shoddy product. This should be illegal.



Correct!


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## Hannes_F (Jun 7, 2016)

EvilDragon said:


> Games. Soooo many games are exactly that - buggy, unfinished, flawed, etc.



This might be true but games are not supposed to be professional tools. They are consumer entertainment.

All the industry is sorted into classes of reliability: Consumer, Prosumer, Professional, Military/Health/Space Flight. So while a software product with the label "professional" on it is not supposed to be as real time reliable as something lives depend on, it should still be better tested than entertainment products.


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## EvilDragon (Jun 7, 2016)

Hannes_F said:


> This might be true but games are not supposed to be professional tools. They are consumer entertainment.



True however I also continued mentioning that even professional tools (some very expensive ones too) have their share of issues and a degree of unfinishedness.


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## Daryl (Jun 7, 2016)

Hannes_F said:


> This might be true but games are not supposed to be professional tools. They are consumer entertainment.
> 
> All the industry is sorted into classes of reliability: Consumer, Prosumer, Professional, Military/Health/Space Flight.


However, these are only what we consider them to be. There is no legislation that means that something in a "professional" bracket has to be treated any different from a consumer product. I would actually like to see that delineation legislated for. Yes, professional products would cost more, but the extra cost would be very small compared with the saving of time and loss of hair that results from trying to use a shoddy product.


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## procreative (Jun 7, 2016)

I think the reason why sample library devs do not stand up to the same consumer standards as many physical products might be that the teams behind software products like these are very small. Its a very niche market after all.

They do not perhaps spend anywhere near as much on R&D and Beta testing as consumer brands and most of the testing is by volunteers getting NFR copies.

Most modern synths and keyboards contain samples as the core basis of their sounds and there is nothing to stop you reselling them. For instance NI let you transfer the license for Maschine, its a hardware box with a software driven sound library essentially a sample library and player after all.

Its a very grey area in law to argue sample libraries are audio recordings and thus are sold as licenses especially when they are Kontakt Player libraries as you cannot access the audio files directly.

Soon I reckon legislation (at least in the EU) will force them to sell their products as refundable licenses. We have already seen changes to VAT and distance selling laws around online downloads, so eventually its logical to assume this will be tackled too.

I think they just need to figure out a way to protect or minimise piracy/dishonesty while permitting resale or refund.


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## Daryl (Jun 7, 2016)

procreative said:


> Its a very grey area in law to argue sample libraries are audio recordings and thus are sold as licenses especially when they are Kontakt Player libraries as you cannot access the audio files directly.


I don't see why you would think it's a grey area.

Audio copyright can easily be proven for only one note. If this was not the case you would be able to sample commercial CDs with impunity
Direct access to the samples is (or can be) denied through copy protection. This doesn't mean that it's not an audio file. DVDs are copy protected. You still buy a licence and don't actually own them.


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## Mike Marino (Jun 7, 2016)

airflamesred said:


> There is try pack for part of agitato


Same for the 8DM products as well.


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## procreative (Jun 7, 2016)

Daryl said:


> I don't see why you would think it's a grey area.
> 
> Audio copyright can easily be proven for only one note. If this was not the case you would be able to sample commercial CDs with impunity
> Direct access to the samples is (or can be) denied through copy protection. This doesn't mean that it's not an audio file. DVDs are copy protected. You still buy a licence and don't actually own them.



Its a grey area because the use of Audio in commercial CDs is limited to playback. It is accepted (or was until Rap came along) that audio was bought to be played by the owner for their own entertainment. Sample libraries may be audio recordings, but their intended use is very different. They are professional tools.

The comparison with CDs and DVDs is irrelevant because the only comparison you can make is with downloaded music. Physical products are very different as you can sell the carrier device and with it the license (okay not for very much unless it is a collectors rarity).

Try packs and demos do not give you the whole story. Its like watching a movie trailer, I frequently get suckered into renting a Sky Box office movie based on a trailer that packs all the best bits in 30 seconds. Once you see the whole film you realise 30 seconds was literally the best bits of the movie and the rest is turgid, badly scripted and probably cost less than the trailer.

I just think that unless developers take lack of refund/resale on board, eventually they will be forced into it and not on their terms. As many are selling Kontakt player libraries, maybe they should discuss this with NI as I am sure there would be a way to manage the licensing via Service Center as is the case with Maschine and Komplete Kontrol?


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## Daryl (Jun 7, 2016)

procreative said:


> Its a grey area because the use of Audio in commercial CDs is limited to playback. It is accepted (or was until Rap came along) that audio was bought to be played by the owner for their own entertainment. Sample libraries may be audio recordings, but their intended use is very different. They are professional tools.


That's irrelevant. The recording is still subject to copyright, so there is no grey area.


procreative said:


> The comparison with CDs and DVDs is irrelevant because the only comparison you can make is with downloaded music. Physical products are very different as you can sell the carrier device and with it the license (okay not for very much unless it is a collectors rarity).


If the producer of a CD or DVD wanted to prohibit re-selling, they would be perfectly entitled to do so. It's just that they have realised that this would not be a realistic proposition.


procreative said:


> Try packs and demos do not give you the whole story. Its like watching a movie trailer, I frequently get suckered into renting a Sky Box office movie based on a trailer that packs all the best bits in 30 seconds. Once you see the whole film you realise 30 seconds was literally the best bits of the movie and the rest is turgid, badly scripted and probably cost less than the trailer.


Agreed, and my preferred way of working would be for licence rental. However, not only are people to mean to pay for such, the physical amount of samples that would need to be downloaded is so large that it would be impractical.

Edit: I forgot to mention that there are online trials of some libraries so you have access to the complete instrument for an hour. I normally find the shortcomings of a library within 10 minutes, so that should help.


procreative said:


> I just think that unless developers take lack of refund/resale on board, eventually they will be forced into it and not on their terms. As many are selling Kontakt player libraries, maybe they should discuss this with NI as I am sure there would be a way to manage the licensing via Service Center as is the case with Maschine and Komplete Kontrol?


Thay can't be forced into it unless copyright rules change, and that is not in the interests of any of us.


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## procreative (Jun 7, 2016)

Well there are many grey areas with Sample libraries:

The fact there are many "Analog classics" titles that have sampled hardware instruments and have exploited copyright rules to do so without paying royalties to the original makers. And many of the developers that appear here have done their own versions such as Spitfire, 8Dio, NI etc.

The fact that very few developers pay the musicians royalties but just a "session" fee, while many artists receive a royalty on every sale for their audio works.

Remember we are not talking about a custom order which the sale of goods act excludes from refund.

Many retailers choose to have policies that go further than the law requires to install confidence and belief in their service. If sample library developers are unwilling, what does this tell you about their confidence in their product? 

Maybe an ASA (Advertising Standards Authority in the UK) type body needs to act as a watchdog to software marketing to avoid claims that are unsubstantiated to avoid frequently used terms such as "groundbreaking" or "next generation"

I think the copyright argument is weaker than the consumer rights argument and while you may not like it, I believe it could be argued that insufficient return/resale rights could be deemed a violation of the sale of goods act. Many doubted VAT would ever be charged on products sold as downloads cross border, but that happened.


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## Daryl (Jun 7, 2016)

procreative said:


> The fact that very few developers pay the musicians royalties but just a "session" fee, while many artists receive a royalty on every sale for their audio works.


well, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on most of your points, but I need to correct you on the above.

Musicians get paid a fee, and it is a very good fee for doing sampling session. Artists usually get paid a Royalty, but not only are they part of the creative process (rather than just playing single notes put in front of them), but their upfront fee also tends to be re-couped, as well as production costs, so as they pay for everything, they are entitled to a Royalty.


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## muk (Jun 7, 2016)

In my opinion it is not as clear cut as you insinuate, Daryl. The decisive factor would be whether a sample library is software in the legal sense, or a set of recordings. In the first case resales, including license transfers, can not be forbidden in the EU, according to a EU court ruling dating from 2012. Video games, for example, contain copyrighted recordings as well. Still they can be resold.

So, I guess the legal question would be: is a sample library a piece of software that generates audio based on recordings, or is it a set of recordings that happens to ship with a bit of code for the ease of use?


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## Daryl (Jun 7, 2016)

muk said:


> In my opinion it is not as clear cut as you insinuate, Daryl. The decisive factor would be whether a sample library is software in the legal sense, or a set of recordings. In the first case resales, including license transfers, can not be forbidden in the EU, according to a EU court ruling dating from 2012. Video games, for example, contain copyrighted recordings as well. Still they can be resold.


The legal advice that I've received (and yes I have consulted a lawyer) is that it is clear cut. What you must realise is that the licence isn't for playback of the audio, it's for using it in your own compositions, and that requires a licence.


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## EvilDragon (Jun 7, 2016)

procreative said:


> The fact there are many "Analog classics" titles that have sampled hardware instruments and have exploited copyright rules to do so without paying royalties to the original makers.



Analog synths do not need permission to be sampled, as they themselves don't contain any samples, but rather generate sound on the spot (and quite often, they sound different from day to day or sometimes even keypress to keypress, which really cannot be copyrighted in any sort of way). Now, digital synths being sampled (for example, Roland D50, Korg M1, whatever), those DO need permission from the maker for sampling. Royalties? No.


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## muk (Jun 7, 2016)

Daryl said:


> The legal advice that I've received (and yes I have consulted a lawyer) is that it is clear cut.



Well, that explains your firm stance. Thanks for the info, that's good to know.​


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## procreative (Jun 7, 2016)

Daryl said:


> Musicians get paid a fee, and it is a very good fee for doing sampling session.



How do you know this for a fact? Depends on the business model and ethics of each developer. And what artists receive for audio work differs. Motown artists got a salary and nothing else. Modern labels are a huge mixture of self published artists and big label artists as the market has levelled out quite a bit with the downturn generally in song sales (apart from the mainstream superstars).



Daryl said:


> The legal advice that I've received (and yes I have consulted a lawyer) is that it is clear cut. What you must realise is that the licence isn't for playback of the audio, it's for using it in your own compositions, and that requires a licence.



On that basis if you buy a library, try it and don't like it or feel promises have been broken and as yet have not used it in any published works, then you ought to be able to resell or return that license.

And as you know what one lawyer says, another may disagree with. Laws are only upheld until a case is fought and on record that overturns a held opinion or set of legislation.



EvilDragon said:


> Analog synths do not need permission to be sampled, as they themselves don't contain any samples, but rather generate sound on the spot (and quite often, they sound different from day to day or sometimes even keypress to keypress, which really cannot be copyrighted in any sort of way).



Not sure this is 100% correct? There is some intellectual property in the synth model as I have seen similar FX plugins that model hardware but use "familiar" names rather than the actual model name (Steven Slate do this). Also if permission is needed for some, then surely the original copyright owner could decide their terms? Its more likely that its not worth their time chasing infringements as the sales figures of sample libraries are pretty small.

You know I have no major axe to grind with developers, I can fully understand why they stick to this model. But now we have dozens of "me-too" libraries covering the same ground, its getting harder and harder to be objective about the promo walkthroughs and "reviews" not to mention the sycophants that sometimes grace forums that are either fully paid up fanboys or worse secret schills or recipients of NFRs from developers.

The original topic holds true. There are many times when developer x has promised a living library only to either drop further development or switch focus on to a "newer, better version". There are also developers that release v1.0 full of bugs, inconsistencies or omissions and either never release updates to fix them or take a long, long time.


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## prodigalson (Jun 7, 2016)

Seems to me, you guys are arguing different things.

Daryl is arguing whether something is or isn't legal, Procreative is arguing whether it SHOULD be legal.


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## EvilDragon (Jun 7, 2016)

procreative said:


> Not sure this is 100% correct? There is some intellectual property in the synth model as I have seen similar FX plugins that model hardware but use "familiar" names rather than the actual model name (Steven Slate do this).



That's a different thing - that's a registered trademark. Different than copyright.

It is 100% correct that you can sample an analog synth without express permission from the manufacturer.


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## Hanu_H (Jun 7, 2016)

I think it's kind of weird to say that samples are recordings with copyright. With this same analog you could record every note on a violin and copyright them as your songs. Then if someone would compose long note on violin you could say that sounds exactly same as my Adagio in D. I understand it when we talk about loops and stuff but not with single samples. They have no musicality in them, so why should they be treated as music?

-Hannes


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## Ashermusic (Jun 7, 2016)

Hanu_H said:


> I think it's kind of weird to say that samples are recordings with copyright. With this same analog you could record every note on a violin and copyright them as your songs. Then if someone would compose long note on violin you could say that sounds exactly same as my Adagio in D. I understand it when we talk about loops and stuff but not with single samples. They have no musicality in them, so why should they be treated as music?
> 
> -Hannes



They are not treated as "music", they are treated as "recordings." It would apply to spoken word recordings as well.


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## procreative (Jun 7, 2016)

Correct I suppose. However I am arguing if the current system IS legal in light of changes to distance selling and electronic downloads. I also doubt any legal advice sought is anything more than an opinion and whatever the pros and cons, in europe at least if the EU decide they want to change things it will not matter what vendors think is legal or illegal as the EU has the power to make or change legislation.


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## procreative (Jun 7, 2016)

Lets not forget much of the existing legislation regarding recordings relates to when a physical replication of this was delivered. Royalties even still include "mechanicals" even though its mostly binary now.

Therefore at some point its only inevitable that the concept of recordings is revised legally.


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## procreative (Jun 7, 2016)

I am certainly not arguing over copyright or rights to charge for a license, however I do feel there needs to be some system to enable returns/resale and that it is not optional for a developer, much the same way a shop has to give a 30 day exchange/refund.


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## Hanu_H (Jun 7, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> They are not treated as "music", they are treated as "recordings." It would apply to spoken word recordings as well.



So with that analogue you could make a recording of all the words in the world and claim copyright to them. Pretty stupid analogue to me. I think there is nothing that you can copyright under a single note/word, only then when you connect two of them you create something what is possibly unique and artistic.

-Hannes


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## Daryl (Jun 7, 2016)

Well, on this subject I've said what I need to, and until Copyright law changes, that is the situation. I have no problem is demanding a refund for a faulty product. However, some developers would cough up. Others wouldn't. I just don't buy from the ones who deliver faulty products.


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## kitekrazy (Jun 7, 2016)

lucor said:


> *You're right, but there is still one major difference: games and these professional software packages you mentioned all have either demos to try them out beforehand or can be refunded after buying *them. Even Steam has a refund policy now. With a very few exceptions (shoutout to @Mike Greene) none of that is possible with most sample libraries, hell in many cases you aren't even allowed to at least re-sell them if you don't like them. Still blows my mind how this is possible and not borderline illegal, and how consumers are still quietly accepting it.



That is a small minority. Steam was the worse at refunds. Still is. EA has a decent refund policy. Many games do not have demos.


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## kitekrazy (Jun 7, 2016)

It's coming to the point that it is hard to reinvent the wheel. How many more orchestra libraries can there be? Look how many virtual drummers are in the market and one company is trying to resurrect Drum Core. How many variations of an FM synth or 2-3 osc synth? How many 808s? Then we have the FX libraries? They market as it's the latest and greatest thing because they have to. Eventually you realize you already had something in your arsenal after spending more time with it.


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## RiffWraith (Jun 7, 2016)

Hanu_H said:


> I think it's kind of weird to say that samples are recordings with copyright.



It's not weird at all. People - at least in most civilized countries - have the right to protect their creations.



Hanu_H said:


> With this same analog you could record every note on a violin and copyright them as your songs.



You wouldn't be able to copyright individual notes. Nobody owns any note, and/or chord. Nobody owns Am. Nobody owns Gmaj7. Same goes for common words that are used in everyday language. Nobody owns them. It's how they are used in context, and the totality of the work. When you register a work with the copyright office, you do not own the individual elements; ie - if you register a song, you do not own the notes that make up the song - you own the work as a whole. You are registering an original work of authorship - again, the totality of the work, not the individual notes, chords, or words.

Cheers.


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## Hanu_H (Jun 7, 2016)

RiffWraith said:


> You wouldn't be able to copyright individual notes. Nobody owns any note, and/or chord. Nobody owns Am. Nobody owns Gmaj7. Same goes for common words that are used in everyday language. Nobody owns them. It's how they are used in context, and the totality of the work. When you register a work with the copyright office, you do not own the individual elements; ie - if you register a song, you do not own the notes that make up the song - you own the work as a whole. You are registering an original work of authorship - again, the totality of the work, not the individual notes, chords, or words.



You say the same thing as I do. If someone would make that kind of recordings it wouldn't be protected by copyright, but when developers make one, it is protected by copyright. What else samples are than small recordings with a one note? And just to be clear, I am not against devs copyrighting samples, I am just curious with the analogue. Because to me, it sounds like it's a bit of a grey are...

-Hannes


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## Altine Jackson (Jun 7, 2016)

Since the gaming comparison came up again, I just wanted to add:



EvilDragon said:


> Games. Soooo many games are exactly that - buggy, unfinished, flawed, etc. Not to mention they usually install some form of intrusive DRM, often much worse than iLok or the likes.
> 
> Or some 3D software. 3D Studio Max still has issues with crashing all the time and corrupting files etc. And this is a "professional" product. Don't get me started on Adobe, please, too. The amount of shit they try to install on your machine which doesn't have to do anything with one single product of theirs you might want to use is staggering. Some shady practices there... There are examples elsewhere as well...
> 
> Just to counter a point. It's not that this kind of practice happens solely in our little sample library world.



Sure, there are tons of buggy or incomplete games that are released. And there are even games that were crowdfunded and didn't deliver. As a gamer, I know that re-peat's argument still stands though. When those things happen in a videogame release, developers DO receive a ton of flak and negative press. When DRM is intrusive and bad enough or a release seems like a blatant cash grab, games are widely panned and avoided (specifically, several Ubisoft releases, the SimCity fiasco, and to a lesser extent Battlefield Hardline). Because their next releases after anything like that tend to be looked at with an intense amount of scrutiny, big name AAA developers in particular are held accountable for their actions and the initial release state of their products.

You could make a point about Steam Greenlight and kickstarter/beta/prealpha releases being a major fixture in the industry... but even then, developers are held to a certain standard (look at how beloved ARK is, and how hated H1Z1 became).

Refunds aside... More importantly, as seems to be the core of re-peat's message, consumers and reviewers aren't vilified for and discouraged from responding negatively to the state of a product release.

For the record, I would agree that a general thread along the lines of 'throw all of your developer grievances here!' isn't strictly necessary or constructive.

Also, I think I've outed myself on playing too many videogames!


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## Daryl (Jun 7, 2016)

Hanu_H said:


> You say the same thing as I do. If someone would make that kind of recordings it wouldn't be protected by copyright, but when developers make one, it is protected by copyright. What else samples are than small recordings with a one note? And just to be clear, I am not against devs copyrighting samples, I am just curious with the analogue. Because to me, it sounds like it's a bit of a grey are...


I'm afraid that you totally miss the point. Music Copyright and sound recording Copyright are two different things. I can record a Beethoven symphony, and whilst the music is not protected by Copyright, the sound recording is. It doesn't matter whether or not it's one note, or even just a sound effect, the recording is still protected by Copyright.


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## Hanu_H (Jun 7, 2016)

Daryl said:


> I'm afraid that you totally miss the point. Music Copyright and sound recording Copyright are two different things. I can record a Beethoven symphony, and whilst the music is not protected by Copyright, the sound recording is. It doesn't matter whether or not it's one note, or even just a sound effect, the recording is still protected by Copyright.



Okay, now I understand this issue a bit better. Thanks.

-Hannes


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## Ashermusic (Jun 7, 2016)

Hanu_H said:


> So with that analogue you could make a recording of all the words in the world and claim copyright to them. Pretty stupid analogue to me. I think there is nothing that you can copyright under a single note/word, only then when you connect two of them you create something what is possibly unique and artistic.
> 
> -Hannes



It really doesn't matter what you think is stupid. It isn't the words or the music that are protected, it is the recordings of them.


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## mc_deli (Jun 7, 2016)

Daryl said:


> Except that when software doesn't work you are entitled to a refund. This is not the case with a sample library, even though it may be the software component that is not working.


Sorry, but an SLA means you agree to the software not working


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## Daryl (Jun 7, 2016)

mc_deli said:


> Sorry, but an SLA means you agree to the software not working


Nope. That would be illegal in the EU. I don't know about other, less civilised areas of the world though.


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## Rodney Money (Jun 7, 2016)

Well Cinesamples is back now.


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## mc_deli (Jun 7, 2016)

Daryl said:


> Nope. That would be illegal in the EU. I don't know about other, less civilised areas of the world though.


Flogs dead horse... SLA says 99.9% uptime... that 0.1% of the time the software is not working... reality is always much worse... and cloud software companies very, very rarely pay back anything... also the reality of corporate software, especially for major corporations, is years and millions spent on software that doesn't work... you can say it's illegal... but that's the reality...


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## RiffWraith (Jun 7, 2016)

Daryl said:


> Nope. That would be illegal in the EU. I don't know about other, less civilised areas of the world though



You meant the USA... didn't you? Yeah - you did! I heard that tone!!!


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## catsass (Jun 7, 2016)

Well, this thread has certainly covered a wide range of topics! Does anyone know what kind of car Troels Folmann drives? Doug Rogers? Eric Persing?


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jun 7, 2016)

catsass said:


> Well, this thread has certainly covered a wide range of topics! Does anyone know what kind of car Troels Folmann drives? Doug Rogers? Eric Persing?



Troels drives a deep-sampled, I mean lowered Golf GTI. Buck Rogers doesn't drive, he flies. Eric drives an Omnisphere.


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## Daryl (Jun 7, 2016)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Buck Rogers doesn't drive, he flies.


He would drive a Lamborghini. If it could go uphill...


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 7, 2016)

catsass said:


> Well, this thread has certainly covered a wide range of topics! Does anyone know what kind of car Troels Folmann drives? Doug Rogers? Eric Persing?



http://www.lamborghini-talk.com/forum/messages/16033/4493.html?1083951609


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## patrick76 (Jun 7, 2016)

givemenoughrope said:


> http://www.lamborghini-talk.com/forum/messages/16033/4493.html?1083951609



Nice!


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 7, 2016)

patrick76 said:


> Nice!



He spun around the corner of Fountain and Fairfax right in front of me once. Once it occurred to me who it was it was too late to yell 'your sampler is s&$*!'


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## procreative (Jun 8, 2016)

So here is an example of where we lose as buyers:

Currently there are 3 solo strings libraries being promoted:

1. Berlin Strings 1st Chair - €249 on promo (roughly £202)
2. Sacconi Strings - £349 on promo
3. Cinestrings Solo - no price yet

So for buyers with promo prices having different cut off dates, they are faced with making decisions before they have all the facts:

1. Comparison on cost
2. Comparison on features

For instance each have limitations. 

1. Berlin Strings 1st Chair has a very good promo price, but lacks vibrato options as only 1 style is used.

2. Sacconi Strings have vibrato control but its not clear if this is x-fade or modulated (like Embertone) and whether there are phase issues.

3. Cinestrings Solo has non vibrato and molto vibrato but it appears to have this baked into portamento and does not seem to offer fingered legato preferring bow change.

So you can see from a buyers perspective how it is very difficult to make a decision particularly when none of the developers have listed their features fully or have placed time sensitive offers in advance of each other.

Its quite easy to end up rushing into a purchase of one library, then realising you made the wrong choice through either lack of information or not enough detail on features/limitations. As you cannot get a refund or resell...


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## Tfis (Jun 8, 2016)

Buy them all and don't forget to write a review 

You could buy an audition credit from VSL (€18/1hour) and test their stuff or get a free trial at eastwest


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## Ashermusic (Jun 8, 2016)

procreative said:


> So here is an example of where we lose as buyers:
> 
> Currently there are 3 solo strings libraries being promoted:
> 
> ...



And all three will probably be fine products with different strengths and weaknesses and that with enough knowledge and skill, any of which you make some really good sounding music with.

And nobody is forcing you to rush into a decision. If you want early adopter discounts, well, then you do so based on your faith in that developer.


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## Mike Greene (Jun 8, 2016)

And you can always post a request for opinions about the libraries. This forum has no rules against people stating their opinions, good or bad. If someone believes there are problems with a library, they are certainly free to say so. (As long as it is not maliciously intended, or personal attacks, etc. Also, in Commercial Announcement threads, an extra amount of civility and non-competing from other developers is expected.)


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## procreative (Jun 8, 2016)

Honestly I cannot say I have seen many uncivil comments in the few years I have been visiting. There have been the occasional threads where things have got heated. Mostly between end users.

I agree nobody forces me or anyone else. However I was just stating that sometimes its very hard to ascertain features between rival products and sometimes developers are distinctly cagey about answering if its something missing or unavailable in their library.

Waiting for other opinions is fine, but they may never come. For instance I seem to remember very few people actually owning up to having used Lumina. Someone has to have taken the risk/plunge on a title, if we all wait for that maybe nobody buys it!

I just wish the promotional blurb was much more detailed up front and that promo periods covered when more detailed information is available. I learned my lesson with Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds. A lack of advance info was lacking including the detail that Nick Phoenix had not been part of the production team... a bit like a Lamborghini that can't cope with the Hollywood Hills I suppose!!


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## stixman (Jun 8, 2016)

I just had a feeling of de ja vue


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## Ashermusic (Jun 8, 2016)

procreative said:


> I learned my lesson with Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds. A lack of advance info was lacking including the detail that Nick Phoenix had not been part of the production team... a bit like a Lamborghini that can't cope with the Hollywood Hills I suppose!!



It is actually not quite really accurate to say that he had not been part of the production team. Nick was there participating in the recording of the samples. Later, during the editing phase, he and Doug had a major falling out so he had not been involved in editing the patches that were initially released. Later, he and Doug resolved their differences and he was involved in editing patches for the updates.


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## procreative (Jun 8, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> It is actually not quite really accurate to say that he had not been part of the production team. Nick was there participating in the recording of the samples. Later, during the editing phase, he and Doug had a major falling out so he had not been involved in editing the patches that were initially released. Later, he and Doug resolved their differences and he was involved in editing patches for the updates.



Semantics... It was the editing, programming and scripting that initially fell short of what had gone before and when they eventually realised how large their legal bills might get and "made up" it made quite a difference.

However thats was some way down the line and for me it was a lesson learned, kind of like when investments state "past performance is no guarantee of future returns".


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## Ashermusic (Jun 8, 2016)

I hate it when people dismiss facts with "semantics." Words matter. 

I don't dispute whatever conclusions you reached or lessons you feel you learned. Those are subjective. But your initial statement was factually inaccurate, so I wanted to clear that up.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 8, 2016)

I hate it when people dismiss facts with "semantics." Words matter. Clarity of thought matters.

I don't dispute whatever conclusions you reached or lessons you feel you learned. Those are subjective. But your initial statement that "Nick Phoenix had not been part of the production team" was factually _wrong_, so I wanted to clear that up.


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## procreative (Jun 8, 2016)

I am not sure what you are arguing over? Nick Phoenix was not involved in the first phase of production of the sample library, that is a fact. Yes he may have been involved in the production of the recordings, but as we all know the recorded audio is only part of what makes a good sample VI.

Hence why the initial release was very disappointing and why once he was back on board improvements were made that showed his input. However it is still the least consistent title of the HW series.

Mainly what I learned is to never buy a library blind again, EW chose to offer next to no demos or product videos prior to launch and chose to only offer a pre-launch promo. Nobody forced me, but I have learned to resist the temptation to jump for an offer without a bit more info.

But fact remains its still very difficult with a lot of promo material to decipher how good a library is as many demos are either produced by supremos like Andy Blaney (who could probably make a paper and comb sound good) or have so much other orchestration mixed in its hard to not get caught up in the piece rather than the actual elements being promoted.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 8, 2016)

Never mind, If you don't already know why being factually accurate matters, I will not convince you.


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## procreative (Jun 8, 2016)

Okay "he had not been involved throughout the entire process when it was released."

Does that actually make any difference? I am not sure why you are taking such a pedantic line which is why I say it is semantics. 

The facts are he was not involved in anywhere near the same role and this fact was masked as the promotional material prior to release stated "from the same team behind Hollywood Strings and Hollywood Brass" or words to that effect. That is NOT factually inaccurate, take a look at the pages of posts on their forum around that time.

I used it as an example of how a purchase can feel almost mis-sold but you have no comeback many times without any way to refund or resell.


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## jononotbono (Jun 8, 2016)

procreative said:


> But fact remains its still very difficult with a lot of promo material to decipher how good a library is as many demos are either produced by supremos like Andy Blaney (who could probably make a paper and comb sound good) or have so much other orchestration mixed in its hard to not get caught up in the piece rather than the actual elements being promoted.



8Dio Adagio were my first String libraries and I bought them purely because of the demos and I absolutely loved them. Loved the Sound so much and still do. When I bought them, I couldn't (and still can't) do what I heard in the demos but that is down to my own lack of knowledge and just knowing what can be achieved with them excites me because it just makes me work so hard to learn how to achieve this stuff. I don't mind libraries being dressed up and shown what they can sound like in a Musical Context because if I can hear it in the demo, then it's achievable, regardless of any Sonic magic. I do a lot of research before buying any VIs - as most probably do - and as a result I haven't been disappointed in any of my purchases yet. Saying that, I even bought OT M Ark1 and the only research on that was a demo, a walk through and listening to their previous libraries. And yes, Andy Blaney is a bad ass!  Perhaps I'm just lucky? Perhaps I shouldn't be on VI Control when I'm drunk. Who knows! Haha!


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## dpasdernick (Jun 8, 2016)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> So what?
> 
> Perhaps they expected that people on the internet would only ever say nice things about their stuff. Jeez, them poor things. Of course sometimes there's whining etc., but then again, there's at least just as much praise, excitement and displays of almost blind brand loyalty on this place. People whine and criticize, but they also praise and spend tons of money. You gotta roll with it either way.
> 
> Granted, I'm not sure if a "let's make a circle jerk about all our various gripes with devs" kind of thread is needed.



+1. I remember a certain developer here that was getting some negative feedback so they left the forum in a pout. If the only way you can keep a developer interested in hanging out here is by praising them, fanboy style, then what's the point? Good honest debate is fine. Yes, keep it civil but in the end who cares if someone gets testy for blowing their hard earned cash on a product and didn't get what they hoped for? The fact that you can't resell some of this software makes it hard to be forgiving when a product ends up short of expectations. Sorry if that hurts someones feelings.


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## jononotbono (Jun 8, 2016)

dpasdernick said:


> The fact that you can't resell some of this software makes it hard to be forgiving when a product ends up short of expectations. Sorry if that hurts someones feelings.



I agree with you, although with one exception. I think it's completely forgiving if a product ends up short on someone's expectations. Perhaps people should stop expecting so much! If a product is released and it's actually faulty and not as described, then wanting to resell/get a refund is more than fair enough. In my opinion of course.


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## mickeyl (Jun 8, 2016)

dpasdernick said:


> If the only way you can keep a developer interested in hanging out here is by praising them, fanboy style, then what's the point? Good honest debate is fine.


If it would stay that way, I'd agree. Given how likely it is for someone here to step over the line where it gets personal, I can somewhat understand passionate developers keeping out of such discussions.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jun 8, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> Perhaps people should stop expecting so much!



How so?

Would you say the same thing about a client?


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## jamwerks (Jun 9, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> 8Dio Adagio...When I bought them, I couldn't (and still can't) do what I heard in the demos but that is down to my own lack of knowledge and just knowing what can be achieved with them excites me because it just makes me work so hard to learn how to achieve this stuff...


Yes Adagio can sound great. But keep in mind that (iinm) when Colin does the video, what you hear is going through his Briscasti M7.


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## jamwerks (Jun 9, 2016)

I remember the video on the Adagio Violas. The sound there is fantastic. Remember that Adagio is recorded center, and very wide. On the video the stereo field is of course narrowed and panned. But it sounds perfectly "in an ambient hall" like Air Studios. If that's not an M7, I'll love to know what the signal chain is!...


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## Daryl (Jun 9, 2016)

jamwerks said:


> I remember the video on the Adagio Violas. The sound there is fantastic. Remember that Adagio is recorded center, and very wide. On the video the stereo field is of course narrowed and panned. But it sounds perfectly "in an ambient hall" like Air Studios. If that's not an M7, I'll love to know what the signal chain is!...


The Bricasti is a red herring. Yes, things can sound better using one, but it won't fix a badly programmed demo. This whole fixation that some people have on gear is misplaced, IMO, when nearly always the major problems are elsewhere.

Sorry for the OT.


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## novaburst (Jun 9, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> Perhaps people should stop expecting so much! If a product i



This is a valid point, especially if you buy the same product over and over again.

I suppose to be critical of developers in this time and age we are living is becoming less and less value or even meaningless.

Simple reason for this statement is there are now to many other products that do better jobs to choose from, there is absolutely no need to stick with one product, 

If you purchased a product from a developer and it is not to your satisfaction then go to another developer, 

It is a shame that once you download software it becomes unreturnable, but even this is now becoming redundant becuase most products come with demos so you can try it out, if a product does not come with a demo then you are responsible for what you download, do your home work.

There is really no excuse to be critical in the age we are living today.

If not all , most products have reviews so even if you don't try the demo you can check what others say about the developers product and this is good practice.

If a developer does not meat your needs why do you still purchase from them, shop around try something else that works for you, you will find one.


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## Daryl (Jun 9, 2016)

novaburst said:


> If you purchased a product from a developer and it is not to your satisfaction then go to another developer


Yes, that's what I do, but then again not all people don't have access to the sort of budgets that I'm used to.


novaburst said:


> It is a shame that once you download software it becomes unreturnable, but even this is now becoming redundant becuase most products come with demos so you can try it out, if a product does not come with a demo then you are responsible for what you download, do your home work.


Yes, but with sample libraries it is not always possible to get a demo for the full product, unlike plugins, where it is usually easy.


novaburst said:


> There is really no excuse to be critical in the age we are living today.


I disagree. There is even more reason, particularly as technology has made things much easier than at any time in the past, so there are many more inexperienced developers than in any previous period


novaburst said:


> If not all , most products have reviews so even if you don't try the demo you can check what others say about the developers product and this is good practice.


I've rarely found a review to be useful, mostly because reviewers rarely work at the level that I do, which means that often they have less experience and lower standards. You also have to realise that reviews are often tainted by the fact that the publication receives advertising from developers, so you can't always trust that they will be 100% truthful.


novaburst said:


> If a developer does not meat your needs why do you still purchase from them, shop around try something else that works for you, you will find one.


As I said, that's what I do, but it doesn't negate the fact that someone has already taken my money for a product that is shoddy or unfinished.


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## procreative (Jun 9, 2016)

Daryl I agree with most of what you said.

I think some here are misplacing the sentiments. I do not think many if any developers aim not to produce the best instruments they can and we all accept techniques evolve and envelopes get pushed.

My main problem is that as we now have many developers producing very similar libraries, the details matter. Being able to do your homework means having as many facts up front.

Its one thing when a library is clearly flawed and does not do what it says it can very well. However its another where you BELIEVE it will do this or that, but realise too late the limitations mean it can only write certain passages convincingly.

Nothing is more irritating than when a developer develops a series, with lots of ambitious talk about future plans and additional volumes then switches to a new library, with no kind of cross grade or consideration for those that bought into the concept.

For example Adagio then heralded as the "future of strings" openly courted contributions to a v2.0, this never materialised. We then got an Agitato series, again never quite fulfilled. And now we have Century Strings, a complete re-invention of the same ground. Which almost admits that Adagio was not "the future" and that it has flaws that cannot be fixed or improved on. Which makes one wonder how much to believe Century will be any more likely to succeed?

Then we have the whole Spitfire Solo Strings, Artisan Strings, Sacconi Strings situation. The differences are there but when a library is marketed as "definitive", I can see why adopters might be very peeved that it seems to have fallen into a void, superseded by better scripted newer products.

That is why a no resale/refund system puts so much emphasis on up front research.

So if developers are going to stick to this, they really must put as much info as possible up:

1. Section sizes
2. Articulations, dynamic layers, mic positions
3. Vibrato options
4. Naked demos
5. Videos showing patches played rather than lots of talk
6. Answer questions not covered in a timely manner


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## Smikes77 (Jun 9, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> 8Dio Adagio were my first String libraries and I bought them purely because of the demos and I absolutely loved them. Loved the Sound so much and still do. When I bought them, I couldn't (and still can't) do what I heard in the demos but that is down to my own lack of knowledge and just knowing what can be achieved with them excites me because it just makes me work so hard to learn how to achieve this stuff. I don't mind libraries being dressed up and shown what they can sound like in a Musical Context because if I can hear it in the demo, then it's achievable, regardless of any Sonic magic. I do a lot of research before buying any VIs - as most probably do - and as a result I haven't been disappointed in any of my purchases yet. Saying that, I even bought OT M Ark1 and the only research on that was a demo, a walk through and listening to their previous libraries. And yes, Andy Blaney is a bad ass!  Perhaps I'm just lucky? Perhaps I shouldn't be on VI Control when I'm drunk. Who knows! Haha!



Never "Drink and VI Control", it`s bad for your plugins.


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## Smikes77 (Jun 9, 2016)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> How so?
> 
> Would you say the same thing about a client?



Although this would make a great comedy sketch if you exaggerate it...

Client: Where`s all my sweeping string melodies, catchy and contemporary rhythms with those heart wrenching harmonies you promised?!

Composer: I`m not as good as I said I was. Move on.


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## KEnK (Jun 9, 2016)

novaburst said:


> There is really no excuse to be critical in the age we are living today.


That is one of the main ingredients of crap- in all aspects of life.
Who wins the race to the bottom? Nobody.



Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Would you say the same thing about a client?


I've had a couple of major assholes as clients-
demanding things not in our initial agreement, and expecting far to much.

These 2 points might seem to oppose each other but they don't.
Products should do what they're advertised to do- but not "more".
Buying software based on "future updates" is a recipe for disappointment.

k


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## novaburst (Jun 9, 2016)

@Daryl well I guess we all better stick with VSL as they are the only all rounders that fits into every ones work flow. 

It is clear once you have purchased a library you will be stuck with it or make the best of it until you are ready to get your next library we all do not have the funds to keep purchasing library's every time it does not satisfy us, you will no doubt need to wait until your ready.

In saying that even when the library you have is ok you will no doubt want a few of the same from ather developers when your funds will allow it.

@procreative , it must be considered that all developers do there best to bring out the best product, 

What we fail to understand is what capacity and resources they are using to develop there product.

Some developers have better resources than others, 

So in essence developers are limited because of resources, and no matter how hard they work at development, it may not meat our satisfaction.

Hence go to another that does it better, stop knocking at the same door, move on.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 9, 2016)

EXACTLY. If you are dissatisfied with a product from a developer, buy the next one from a different developer.

Which is a good argument BTW for starting with a less expensive offering from a developer then if you have a good experience, buying a more expensive one.


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## jamwerks (Jun 9, 2016)

As for VSL, can't wait for them to start pumping out a complete new line!!


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## Ashermusic (Jun 9, 2016)

jamwerks said:


> As for VSL, can't wait for them to start pumping out a complete new line!!



Until now at least , I admire their products more than I enjoy the way they sound.


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## procreative (Jun 9, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> EXACTLY. If you are dissatisfied with a product from a developer, buy the next one from a different developer.



And that is exactly what I do. However that can be an expensive lesson.

But the fact remains that sometimes walkthroughs/demos sometimes mask the major deficiencies and its only when you play it for yourself you find out, too late.

Its a bit like watching a guitar salesperson play their licks on a guitar in a store and buying it without trying it yourself – a great guitarist will blind you with their virtuosity (or crapness depending on the store).

Maybe one day we will have a Trysound type site plugin that resides on the developers website, where you can load up a sample library and play it in real-time on your keyboard/controller and see what it plays like?


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## kitekrazy (Jun 9, 2016)

_dpasdernick said: ↑

If the only way you can keep a developer interested in hanging out here is by praising them, fanboy style, then what's the point? Good honest debate is fine._

While some claim this site isn't always nice to developers I've seen some annoying butt kissing as well.


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## logburner (Jun 9, 2016)

Hi guys, my first post here. Just wanted to throw my 10p as I think the software instrument industry is very behind in terms of demo/refund policy.

As we all know, almost all the DAWs and plugin processors allow a period of (or non-limited) demo time. It's such a great scheme because we can be very sure that the software is what we really want, in all regards (sound/function/interface/etc). Some companies even allow refund if a user doesn't like the product in the end.

On the other hand, the number of software instruments that allow demoing is very limited. With those that don't provide demo version of software, demo songs are the only audible source that we can rely on, and quite often some users end up not really enjoying the instrument.

This doesn't benefit software companies because once I waste $100 or more money on a product, I'd be very hesitant to buy another instrument from such company again. And what happens is people tend to step back from software with bad user reviews and buy stuff that have good reviews. Choosing a software really shouldn't be about reviews but it can't be helped because software companies don't even allow refund.

I can understand the mechanical reason why developers can't give refund for kontakt libraries, but it's 2016 now. There are many forms of copy protection system and I don't understand why they can't allow refund for software that are tied with iLok and other copy protection.

Software companies continuing in this direction is really bad, because they could try making demo songs sound as pretty as possible, yet keeping the money in their pocket even if the product disappoints users. I just think software companies should make money with stuff that users are happy using, and let users support their business.


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## tack (Jun 9, 2016)

logburner said:


> And what happens is people tend to step back from software with bad user reviews and buy stuff that have good reviews.


I will say that this is what prevented me from buying a single EastWest product. When I was first starting into VIs, there was a lot to like in what I read and heard in EastWest libraries. But I had simply read enough tales of woe here and elsewhere about PLAY, and research at the time showed that EastWest does not allow resale (to say nothing about refunds). This combined with the general favour of Spitfire led me down the BML path instead.

Not that Spitfire's policies are any better, but user sentiment played a significant factor in that decision. If EastWest had had more consumer-friendly policies, there's no question I would have started there. And there's a not-small chance I wouldn't have had any problems with PLAY, like many other users with capable systems, and my template might well look very different today.

It's been a few years, and nowadays EastWest has Composer Cloud which, if I was able to get over the whole software subscription model (I can't), would be a much lower risk option to trying that world. But now I'm less interested in those products, because I've committed to a different path and my needs are generally well satisfied elsewhere.

Not to single out EastWest. That's just my own personal story. It could easily have been any one of the other not-resale-friendly developers -- including Spitfire for that matter -- but ultimately resale ability _does_ factor into my buying decisions, as does user feedback. A consumer friendly refund policy can pretty much obviate the influence of negative user feedback, and a resale policy can greatly mitigate it.


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## Smikes77 (Jun 10, 2016)

tack said:


> I will say that this is what prevented me from buying a single EastWest product. When I was first starting into VIs, there was a lot to like in what I read and heard in EastWest libraries. But I had simply read enough tales of woe here and elsewhere about PLAY, and research at the time showed that EastWest does not allow resale (to say nothing about refunds). This combined with the general favour of Spitfire led me down the BML path instead.
> 
> Not that Spitfire's policies are any better, but user sentiment played a significant factor in that decision. If EastWest had had more consumer-friendly policies, there's no question I would have started there. And there's a not-small chance I wouldn't have had any problems with PLAY, like many other users with capable systems, and my template might well look very different today.
> 
> ...



What's wrong with the subscription model?


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## tack (Jun 10, 2016)

Smikes77 said:


> What's wrong with the subscription model?


This has certainly been discussed elsewhere, so I hesitate to drag the thread down this rabbit hole, but I suppose this thread has already accumulated a few rabbit holes ...

That question is better phrased as "what don't you like about the subscription model?" Because I recognize that it works fine for some people.

So for me, I don't like the idea of being held hostage to a monthly payment. This is true for other things in my life as well -- for example the cars I have owned, I save up and pay cash because I like the idea of having independence if my financial situation changes (such as finding myself unemployed one day). Worse than just a monthly payment, though, is one in _perpetuity_, which is required to unlock a massive investment of my creative time.

There is also the uncertainty of what happens if the company providing the services shutters. You would think they'd do the responsible thing, but I don't believe they are legally obligated. In the case Composer Cloud, in the Termination section of their Terms of Use, they say the agreement may be terminated either by them or by the user, and say "Upon the expiration or termination of the Services, some or all of the Software may cease to operate without prior notice."

Imagine waking up one day and discovering that the software you've been using for the past several years in your creative pursuits is not only no longer supported and maintained, but actually ceases to work, and you're no longer able to access and modify the original format of that work? That's the nuclear scenario that is especially concerning with subscription model software.

So for these reasons, I am not compatible with software subscriptions, particularly for software that holds under lock and key hundreds or thousands of hours of my work.


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## Smikes77 (Jun 10, 2016)

tack said:


> This has certainly been discussed elsewhere, so I hesitate to drag the thread down this rabbit hole, but I suppose this thread has already accumulated a few rabbit holes ...
> 
> That question is better phrased as "what don't you like about the subscription model?" Because I recognize that it works fine for some people.
> 
> ...




I see your point. Fair enough. I agree.


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## logburner (Jun 10, 2016)

tack said:


> I will say that this is what prevented me from buying a single EastWest product. When I was first starting into VIs, there was a lot to like in what I read and heard in EastWest libraries. But I had simply read enough tales of woe here and elsewhere about PLAY, and research at the time showed that EastWest does not allow resale (to say nothing about refunds). This combined with the general favour of Spitfire led me down the BML path instead.
> 
> Not that Spitfire's policies are any better, but user sentiment played a significant factor in that decision. If EastWest had had more consumer-friendly policies, there's no question I would have started there. And there's a not-small chance I wouldn't have had any problems with PLAY, like many other users with capable systems, and my template might well look very different today.
> 
> ...



Exactly. The bigger the VI range that a company offers, the more they are potentially losing their sales. I can't help feeling how silly it is, it would have made everyone happy only if companies allowed resale or refund. And the chances are that the existing users are likely to spend their money to upgrade the libraries like NI's Komplete.

This could be one of the most significant reasons why NI is the most successful software instrument developer. I don't own Komplete, but this aspect makes me feel more than comfortable to jump on the bandwagon because their policy seem very logical and reasonable for users.


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## kurtvanzo (Jun 10, 2016)

logburner said:


> Exactly. The bigger the VI range that a company offers, the more they are potentially losing their sales. I can't help feeling how silly it is, it would have made everyone happy only if companies allowed resale or refund. And the chances are that the existing users are likely to spend their money to upgrade the libraries like NI's Komplete.
> 
> This could be one of the most significant reasons why NI is the most successful software instrument developer. I don't own Komplete, but this aspect makes me feel more than comfortable to jump on the bandwagon because their policy seem very logical and reasonable for users.


The issue is really that for those companies that offer refunds or resales, they really have no idea if you've deleted the instrument after you've sold it or received the refund. The best they can do is watermark it and hope they don't see it pop up on a torrent site, and most small developers have no time to track sites or money to mount lawsuits. Even a resale is keeping track of a serial number in case there is an update, but they have no way of removing your ability to use the current version you have. They hope people will be honest, but one rotten apple... Kudos to those companies that do offer refunds or resales, I hope the trend continues and people use it ONLY for those libraries they would never use again (or share online). With bigger libraries, it's a bigger risk on both sides.

With NI all their libraries are Player libraries, so their system must enable your computer to use it. Easier for them to keep track of who is allowed to use what. But also a chance for them to make some serious $$$ charging developers for the "safe" platform. For many developers, the profit margin is just not big enough or they don't have the cash to pony up for a large block of NI player licenses upfront.


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## logburner (Jun 10, 2016)

kurtvanzo said:


> The issue is really that for those companies that offer refunds or resales, they really have no idea if you've deleted the instrument after you've sold it or received the refund. The best they can do is watermark it and hope they don't see it pop up on a torrent site, and most small developers have no time to track sites or money to mount lawsuits. Even a resale is keeping track of a serial number in case there is an update, but they have no way of removing your ability to use the current version you have. They hope people will be honest, but one rotten apple... Kudos to those companies that do offer refunds or resales, I hope the trend continues and people use it ONLY for those libraries they would never use again (or share online). With bigger libraries, it's a bigger risk on both sides.
> 
> With NI all their libraries are Player libraries, so their system must enable your computer to use it. Easier for them to keep track of who is allowed to use what. But also a chance for them to make some serious $$$ charging developers for the "safe" platform. For many developers, the profit margin is just not big enough or they don't have the cash to pony up for a large block of NI player licenses upfront.



Copy protection for sample libraries is not as simple, but technically feasible, right? As a potential buyer, I'd rather be safe than sorry and prioritise libraries that offer demo/refund/resale.

For libraries that require full version of Kontakt, it'll be difficult to encrypt the products. So the logical choice as a user to buy stuff that won't hurt his wallet if the library turns out something that's not what he is really after, if necessary. Or developers could sell cut-down version of a library for very cheap and allow upgrade.

Now with Kontakt Player, UVI or iLok protected libraries, I don't understand why developers can't allow demo/refund/resale. Isn't such library tied to a license and will not function without it? If so why can't they provide demo license and allow refund/resale?

To me it looks like developers are taking advantage of the situation in a very bad way i.e. making demo songs as pretty as possible, sell the library and it's not their business anymore if a buyer finds it hardly useful.


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## kurtvanzo (Jun 10, 2016)

logburner said:


> Copy protection for sample libraries is not as simple, but technically feasible, right? As a potential buyer, I'd rather be safe than sorry and prioritise libraries that offer demo/refund/resale.
> 
> For libraries that require full version of Kontakt, it'll be difficult to encrypt the products. So the logical choice as a user to buy stuff that won't hurt his wallet if the library turns out something that's not what he is really after, if necessary. Or developers could sell cut-down version of a library for very cheap and allow upgrade.
> 
> ...



I agree. This is why I don't listen to demos but research reviews and watch walk-throughs before purchasing. I honestly don't buy a library without them unless it's under $30. I'm not sure why any Kontakt player library can't be resold (or any other copy-protected library), it's seems like this should be a viable option. Perhaps buyers should only buy libraries that can be resold, so that developers would feel pressure to adopt the practice. A list is already started...
http://vi-control.net/community/threads/resale-license-transfer-list.28264/


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## AmbientMile (Jun 10, 2016)

kurtvanzo said:


> The issue is really that for those companies that offer refunds or resales, they really have no idea if you've deleted the instrument after you've sold it or received the refund.



Excellent point. When I took advantage of Output's refund policy, the instruments still worked fine on my system after the refund. There was nothing stopping me from continuing to use them. The same week of the refund, I reformatted my MBP so they were deleted and gone from my NI Service Center when I was reinstalling my library. I would not have kept them anyway not just because it would be morally wrong, but I really appreciated Output's policy. As I've said before, great products, just not for my style.


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## logburner (Jun 10, 2016)

kurtvanzo said:


> I agree. This is why I don't listen to demos but research reviews and watch walk-throughs before purchasing. I honestly don't buy a library without them unless it's under $30. I'm not sure why any Kontakt player library can't be resold (or any other copy-protected library), it's seems like this should be a viable option. Perhaps buyers should only buy libraries that can be resold, so that developers would feel pressure to adopt the practice. A list is already started...
> http://vi-control.net/community/threads/resale-license-transfer-list.28264/



I think resale is good for some situations like one ends up not being able to utilise a library after a month or so of using it, and it's cool if he can cover maybe 70% of what he paid for.

What makes me insist on demo license and refund is that not all libraries will hold their resale value or it could end up no one wanting to buy it second hand in the worst case. In such case, it's the developer that taking money and buyers totally losing out. And not-so-popular libraries will automatically be something that buyers would avoid for a weird reason i.e. lack of "good" reviews (even if it's actually a good library but not getting enough recognition). The result will be less diversity in VI libraries.

This is a silly game, man. Developers role should be to provide something valuable to users and receive money in return, not making buyers stir around reviews and demo songs to make almost blind decision.

It's also silly I'm posting such message full of moaning in this great forum. I felt so disgusted when I bought a library, got dissapointed with the sound, got in touch with the developer to say how I felt about it, they just said "sorry" and didn't offer any help for my loss. I lost money for their earnings who are just sorry for taking my money but don't return it, so there's no way I will be willing to buy anything from them, even if they come up with the one and only marvelous product. I won't blame them for it, I think it's system failure in software instrument industry.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 10, 2016)

As I have said many times before, the developers make their decisions based on what they feel they have to do to thrive. They are all aware of what people here would like in regards to resale. None of them enjoy displeasing customers so if they don't change their policy it is not because they have not thought about it or are just stubborn, it is because they have decided it will not work financially for them. You are not smarter than they are.

And writing "developers should" will not change that. They will do what they feel they need to do and live with the consequences of their decisions, as we all do.


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## pkm (Jun 10, 2016)

logburner said:


> Copy protection for sample libraries is not as simple, but technically feasible, right? As a potential buyer, I'd rather be safe than sorry and prioritise libraries that offer demo/refund/resale.
> 
> For libraries that require full version of Kontakt, it'll be difficult to encrypt the products. So the logical choice as a user to buy stuff that won't hurt his wallet if the library turns out something that's not what he is really after, if necessary. Or developers could sell cut-down version of a library for very cheap and allow upgrade.
> 
> ...



Kontakt's copy protection is mostly worthless. People who want to follow the rules will follow the rules, but people who don't won't.


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## bigcat1969 (Jun 11, 2016)

With the main 'record' business in free fall thanks to the shift from selling overprice collections of music with two good songs to inexpensive or even free streaming, I question if the Developers in our context necessarily know what's the best business model or are simply trying to adjust to this new world of streaming and pay as you go where pirates are everywhere (do rap producers actually ever buy anything?).


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## catsass (Jun 11, 2016)

bigcat1969 said:


> (do rap producers actually ever buy anything?)



I am not a rap producer, a rap artist, nor am I a big fan of the genre (though I have been asked, and successfully delivered cues in that vein). I have to say, I find that comment to be _way_ over the top, and an extremely broad generalization of the many who work in that particular segment of our industry.

If the question was _not_ delivered rhetorically, and you are truly seeking an answer, my response is, "Well, of course they do!"

Sure, we are all aware that there are _many_ pirates out there who have no qualms about stealing directly from a developer's livelihood. But I do not find the practice to be particularly genre exclusive.

Am I living with my head in the sand? Maybe you can educate me on the criteria with which you are basing that statement on.


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## bigcat1969 (Jun 11, 2016)

I was being silly because of this headline "Kanye West caught using Pirate Bay to download music software". My apologies to those of you who are rap producers.


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## catsass (Jun 11, 2016)

bigcat1969 said:


> I was being silly because of this headline "Kanye West caught using Pirate Bay to download music software". My apologies to those of you who are rap producers.


As mentioned, not a rap producer, etc. Sorry, missed the Kanye connection. Peace!


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## bigcat1969 (Jun 11, 2016)

Tone of voice can't be captured on the old interwebs and I probably shouldn't have said that even in jest.
If you ever run for President can I be the VP on an all Feline ticket?


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## logburner (Jun 11, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> As I have said many times before, the developers make their decisions based on what they feel they have to do to thrive. They are all aware of what people here would like in regards to resale. None of them enjoy displeasing customers so if they don't change their policy it is not because they have not thought about it or are just stubborn, it is because they have decided it will not work financially for them. You are not smarter than they are.
> 
> And writing "developers should" will not change that. They will do what they feel they need to do and live with the consequences of their decisions, as we all do.



It's not "who is the smartest?" contest that I'm in. 

Anyway, I'm not sure if it's true that "None of them enjoy displeasing customers so if they don't change their policy it is not because they have not thought about it or are just stubborn, it is because they have decided it will not work financially for them".

I think a part of it is that no demo/refund/resale policy work in their favour when it comes to generating sales, because once a buyer purchases a product, the money is theirs no matter how dissatisfied he is. And they can say "sorry but this is the rule" (rule that works in their favour in such case) whereby buyers have to "understand how things work" even if certain things seem unreasonable. Because the rule is the rule, buyers would have to be ready to sacrifice their money if a product turns out completely useless a minute after downloading the library. Hence it sometimes appears that developers prioritising sales over customer satisfaction.

I'm just throwing my 10p in addition to the other pennies that have accumulated in this thread. I'm expecting no further.


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## bigcat1969 (Jun 11, 2016)

Just a thought that happened to pop into my mind. It can be good PR to support older products. I 'upgraded' to Windows 10, as the keystroke capture technology is reporting to Microsoft as I type this, and needed to reinstall some stuff. PianoTeq smooth, Addictive Keys smooth, old EZdrummer / expansion pack smooth, old BFD Eco choke and won't run. So one company off my list permanently. It's not really one drum program that I don't care about, it is old and honestly never sounded that great, frankly there are freebie drumkits I like better, but its the principle of buying something and it just being worthless a couple years later. Lots of options out there and I think it is easier to lose customers than we think.


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## kurtvanzo (Jun 17, 2016)

bigcat1969 said:


> Just a thought that happened to pop into my mind. It can be good PR to support older products. I 'upgraded' to Windows 10, as the keystroke capture technology is reporting to Microsoft as I type this, and needed to reinstall some stuff. PianoTeq smooth, Addictive Keys smooth, old EZdrummer / expansion pack smooth, old BFD Eco choke and won't run. So one company off my list permanently. It's not really one drum program that I don't care about, it is old and honestly never sounded that great, frankly there are freebie drumkits I like better, but its the principle of buying something and it just being worthless a couple years later. Lots of options out there and I think it is easier to lose customers than we think.



True. When any software developer stops supporting a product I've owned for only a few months or years, their current products seem much less valuable and I rarely purchase from them again, even if I like the products. i don't expect a lot of updates, just a product that works (without major bugs) and is kept up with host updates (OS or Kontakt) for a few years.


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