# FINALLY!!! Sample Modeling Viola!



## FriFlo (Nov 23, 2015)

http://www.samplemodeling.com/en/swam_viola.php

I am childishly enthusiastic!  Off to watching the demos!


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## Rasmus Hartvig (Nov 23, 2015)

Great news! Been looking forward to seeing how SM would push the envelope with string instruments.

Perhaps to be expected, it has that same "more real than real" uncanniness as the other SWAM instruments. And the demos are a bit short and reverb soaked. Really looking forward to hearing what users can wring from this.

There is however some incredible technical wizardry going on when watching the demo video. The bow change and pressure controls looks awesome!


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## williemyers (Nov 23, 2015)

I wonder if it's just coincidence that Giorgio, the guy created "The Strad" violin and "The Gofriller" cello, has chosen the viola as his first SampleModelling string?


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## FriFlo (Nov 23, 2015)

williemyers said:


> I wonder if it's just coincidence that Giorgio, the guy created "The Strad" violin and "The Gofriller" cello, has chosen the viola as his first SampleModelling string?


Well, Bass would have been odd and violin and cello have already been done with garritan.
I have to hear those demos on proper monitors, yet! On an iPad it seems like a VERY controlable, realistic and playable instrument. I already ordered it anyway, since I almost blindly trust that any sample modeling release is at least very good. I hope it will be excellent, though!


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## Walid F. (Nov 23, 2015)

Amazing! Getting it straight away. Imagine if they did double bass solo as well!!

W.


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## jononotbono (Nov 23, 2015)

Wow! Love it! Gonna have to get this for sure!


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## tabulius (Nov 23, 2015)

Very nasal , harsh bowing and synthy sounding imo. Time to time some performances sounded nice and the bow gesture looked interesting in the video. But overall I wasn't impressed.


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## Walid F. (Nov 23, 2015)

Omgggggggg this is SOO nice. Playing around with it now. Sample Modeling has done it again!!!

W.


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## Hanu_H (Nov 23, 2015)

tabulius said:


> Very nasal , harsh bowing and synthy sounding imo. Time to time some performances sounded nice and the bow gesture looked interesting in the video. But overall I wasn't impressed.




I don't know what video you have watched but it definitely does not sound synthy at all. Best sounding viola, I have heard so far...

-Hannes


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## Jeast (Nov 23, 2015)

Im am a big fan of their brass pack and use it all the time. So expectations were big on this one. I hate to say this but I am massively dissapointed. It sounds awefull. Synthy indeed.Gofriller Cello sounds 10 times better. All my opinion ofc. All based of the demo video clip so I hope there will be better videos coming over time, but back to plain samples for me for now.


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## renegade (Nov 23, 2015)

If it's anything like the other SM instruments it will be very much up to the user how this instrument will sound. And that includes all the mixing stuff, EQ, reverb and so on (Jeast, have you tried different EQ and reverb settings?). I'm not hooked just from the demos, not scared away either...might pick it up some day 
I'm curious how this would sound as an ensemble, though I would probably not use it that way myself as I have excellent ensemble libraries already.


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## vicontrolu (Nov 23, 2015)

Synthy, but nice to play


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## williemyers (Nov 23, 2015)

FriFlo said:


> Well, Bass would have been odd


I agree!


FriFlo said:


> and violin and cello have already been done with garritan.


that's the ood thing.... I don't think you can (legally) get those any longer and I'm wondering if Giorgio had to enter in to some form of agreement when he broke off with Gary, that would preclude him from having SM offer a violin and/or a cello. But i really hope not, and - hopefully - the vioin & cello are on their way!


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## Jeast (Nov 23, 2015)

renegade said:


> If it's anything like the other SM instruments it will be very much up to the user how this instrument will sound. And that includes all the mixing stuff, EQ, reverb and so on (Jeast, have you tried different EQ and reverb settings?). I'm not hooked just from the demos, not scared away either...might pick it up some day
> I'm curious how this would sound as an ensemble, though I would probably not use it that way myself as I have excellent ensemble libraries already.


. 
No I did not. Based my opinion just on the demos ☺


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## Vin (Nov 23, 2015)

Not a big fan of the sound, but insane playability. Will listen in detail on my DT-880 Pros when I'm in studio.


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## Craig Sharmat (Nov 23, 2015)

Listening to the demos (and that's all I've done) I thought the jazz stuff sounded pretty darn good and I play a ton of Gypsy Jazz. Unless there is another way to approach it I cannot see using it as a solo or group instrument in my day to day work, transitions and tone did not seem right, maybe in someone else's hands it might work better.


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## reddognoyz (Nov 23, 2015)

tabulius said:


> Very nasal , harsh bowing and synthy sounding imo. Time to time some performances sounded nice and the bow gesture looked interesting in the video. But overall I wasn't impressed.




Respectfully disagree. I would love to hear this viola with a little more acoustic support (okay with more room/reverb) but the play-ability looks amazing.


Hanu_H said:


> I don't know what video you have watched but it definitely does not sound synthy at all. Best sounding viola, I have heard so far...
> 
> -Hannes



+1

Bought and DL'ed

I have played around with it for a few minutes. It sounds great, I have barely scratched the surface but it is very very playable, with gobs of expression and it is very sprightly, no lagginess at all. It allows for double stops, you can get a very nasty scratchy tone by upping the bow pressure. I was able to play fiddle style bent double stops using the bipolar bowing mode. This thing has a tiny footprint and very deep controls.

Samplemodeling generally demo's their stuff drier than I would be using in a scoring situation. I put it in just enough hall for the tone to bloom a little and I think it sounds really really good. As with all their instruments, if you don't actively play it, it will lay there like a lifeless fish, move the expression and vibrato like you are playing with passion and it will respond in kind.

Totally get why they'd start with the viola, bring on the violin, cello and bass!!!


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## Walid F. (Nov 23, 2015)

This is like 10 minutes with the viola, just changing some bow positions, a few of the sound sets and vibrato controls. I think this will do amazing in orchestral setting. I really love the flautando sound too.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12797960/quick_thing_SM_Viola.mp3

W.


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## Hanu_H (Nov 23, 2015)

Walid F. said:


> This is like 10 minutes with the viola, just changing some bow positions, a few of the sound sets and vibrato controls. I think this will do amazing in orchestral setting. I really love the flautando sound too.
> 
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12797960/quick_thing_SM_Viola.mp3
> 
> W.


Hey Walid,

Well dammit, that sounds amazing...did you use any positioning with this or only reverb? I mean Spat or VSS?

-Hannes


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## Walid F. (Nov 23, 2015)

Hanu_H said:


> Hey Walid,
> 
> Well dammit, that sounds amazing...did you use any positioning with this or only reverb? I mean Spat or VSS?
> 
> -Hannes



Cheers man! My chain is like this:

The viola vst's own reverb mix (inside SWAM) -> QL Spaces ACME 0.8s FR with a bit less dry (to push it back a bit) -> some pre-fader B2 long scoring stage sound (3 s)

W.


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## Walid F. (Nov 23, 2015)

Oh and here's another quick one. More soft, "authentic". And here I actually added an extra QL Spaces 0.5s ACME stage on there. Works nicely. Inspired by Yen-Kai Peng's OST for the movie When The Wind Settles.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12797960/quick_thing_SM_Viola2.mp3

W.


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## givemenoughrope (Nov 23, 2015)

I wonder how it compares to Embertone? Sounds like it's fun to play though!


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## marcotronic (Nov 23, 2015)

To me this Viola is sounding quite synthetic as soon as vibrato comes in - just too artificial - but in my opinion that's also the problem with other instruments that have artificial vibrato like Embertone's strings stuff...

The best sounding string solo instrument by far in my opinion is Best Service's Emotional Cello.

Marco


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## Baron Greuner (Nov 23, 2015)

Alright in an appropriate mix and genre when slightly submerged but I wouldn't think you would want it too up front, unless you're deaf.


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## germancomponist (Nov 23, 2015)

WOW! Sounds sooo good to my ears!
Congratulations, Samplemodeling team! You did it again!


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## germancomponist (Nov 23, 2015)

tabulius said:


> Very nasal , harsh bowing and synthy sounding imo. Time to time some performances sounded nice and the bow gesture looked interesting in the video. But overall I wasn't impressed.



Huh ... . Have you ever heard a real viola in your real life?


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## jononotbono (Nov 23, 2015)

Baron Greuner said:


> Alright in an appropriate mix and genre when slightly submerged but I wouldn't think you would want it too up front, unless you're deaf.



Hahaha! Spat my Tea out reading this!


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## Zhao Shen (Nov 23, 2015)

I think the people who are criticizing the viola for its synthetic quality could be referring more to the performance video. Watching viola samples being performed on a keyboard can contribute a lot to that "oh this isn't real" feeling. In addition, the keyboardist seems to play the viola as if it were a wind instrument, with lots of passages I could easily hear a trumpet or saxophone playing but that I feel a little "meh" with on the viola.

Aside from that though, I don't see the problem. SM's instruments are ALL about how you use them, and they have certainly given you the tools to use their products in a HUGE variety of contexts. Sounds great to me - also great little test run, Walid.


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## antoniopandrade (Nov 23, 2015)

Yeah, SM really needs to re-think the way they present their instruments to the world. It has possibility but I'm unimpressed with the actual raw sound of the instrument.


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## germancomponist (Nov 23, 2015)

antoniopandrade said:


> Yeah, SM really needs to re-think the way they present their instruments to the world. It has possibility but I'm unimpressed with the actual raw sound of the instrument.


I think I got it: You all want to hear their instruments (pre) mixed for some orchestra stuff ... . Right? A stage sound?


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## antoniopandrade (Nov 23, 2015)

germancomponist said:


> I think I got it: You all want to hear their instruments, (pre) mixed for some orchestra stuff ... . Right? A stage sound?


Gunther, I think they could've at least packaged it a little better, because we all know how expressive SM instruments are, it would be good to hear them properly mixed and with a lot of care taken in producing a convincing performance (which is possible, but can take a lot of work with how powerful these instruments are). Instead SM insist in showcasing their instruments with a jazzy, live performance. It just sounds completely wrong for the viola here. But aside from demos, this particular viola sounds super nasal, and I assume would require a whole lot of mixing love to sound decent upfront in a mix (which is why anyone would buy it anyway).


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## vicontrolu (Nov 23, 2015)

Lass viola isnt wet and it sounds less synthy to me. Nevertheless, great product!


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## germancomponist (Nov 23, 2015)

I hear ya, Antonio. There is nothing wrong with your suggestion, I think.


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## apessino (Nov 23, 2015)

Zhao Shen said:


> I think the people who are criticizing the viola for its synthetic quality could be referring more to the performance video. Watching viola samples being performed on a keyboard can contribute a lot to that "oh this isn't real" feeling. In addition, the keyboardist seems to play the viola as if it were a wind instrument, with lots of passages I could easily hear a trumpet or saxophone playing but that I feel a little "meh" with on the viola.



Yes, and the fact that he is massively out of tune most of the time does not help either.

I am sorry to say but at least in that video it sounded really horrible to me. Here is a random clip of an actual jazzy naked viola playing. Listen to this and then go back to the SM video and tell me it sounds realistic...



It will be interesting to hear what users are going to be able to do - especially with something not smeared in reverb.


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## Erik (Nov 23, 2015)

Usually these SM-instruments need a lot more CC-customization than a keyboard player can handle in his/her own at one and the same moment. So some dimensions are just out of reach in this case. I always did quite some (manual) drawing in many CC-lanes to get a more satisfying result. In a way the company video may not do justice to this product, strangely enough.


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## Alatar (Nov 23, 2015)

I think, in order to really emulate a viola, you need a MIDI viola (Something like an electric violin. But for the viola. And for MIDI). Mimicking a viola on the piano is difficult. Because well, you have no bow!
That said, I really like the sound of the SM viola, judging by the demos. Tempted to get it


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## germancomponist (Nov 23, 2015)

First of all, you need to think and to play like a viola player


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## ModalRealist (Nov 23, 2015)

Name me one other VST string library that can perform the following line without going machine-gun or using terrible-sounding false round-robin:



Walid F. said:


> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12797960/quick_thing_SM_Viola2.mp3
> 
> W.



Pro tip: you can't. (Disclaimer: not actually a pro tip, I'm an amateur. )

No, in all seriousness, as a listener of music and sometime audiophile, this is probably one of the nicest sounding string VST I've heard. As with SM's other instruments, it sounds _musical. _Of course, its musicality is then more significantly down to performance - but what else would you expect? An electronic violist as well? As germancomponist said, one ought to learn how to think musically as a viola player.

Hell, Andy Blaney always says how important it is to write idiomatically for the instrument, and tends to imply part of his success down to that knowledge. Well, writing idiomatically isn't about knowing what other composers-in-general have written (as much as that might be a guide), but about what an instrumentalist would improvise, or write for themselves, or otherwise what the instrument is capable of making nice sounds.

Anyway. Bravo to SampleModeling. I can't wait for the day in the future when I can splurge on a complete set of instruments from them, and write bizarre chamber orchestra jazz fusion. In the meantime, I await the results of people's spatialisation experiments with great interest!


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## germancomponist (Nov 23, 2015)

I would like it to listen to an example of this library, done by my friend Guy Bacos!


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## re-peat (Nov 23, 2015)

Nothing but reverent, dumb-struck and gasping-for-oxygen silence for the technological achievement of this virtual viola and its performance abilities, but ... as soon as my attention shifts to how it actually sounds, I can’t but agree with Tabulius: *very* synthetic, and always sort of strangely ‘notch filtered’.

The closest I get to half-way appreciating the timbre — not enjoying it, but respectfully appreciating it — is by listening to the Mulava demo. Everything else however (incl. the user demos in this thread.) sounds completely unconvincing to me. 

Such a shame that its sound is going to be this amazing instrument’s worst enemy. That, and the exaggerated enthusiasm of Sample Modeling devotees of course.

Having said that: this is certainly a day for joy and celebration, because you only have to imagine this software with better sounding source material, to get *really* excited about the future of virtual stringed instruments. So, certainly a bravissimo from me too.

_


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## LondonMike (Nov 23, 2015)

I detect a similar problem to one that I find with SM saxophones. At least judging from the demos I've heard so far.
While their trumpets and trombones are absolutely stellar, realistic and extremely expressive I've not been able to get the 'smoothness' out of the saxes. Especially when using the vibrato.
This viola does have a little of that 'too smooth' sound in places but the number of tweak-able parameters and CC options make this a very interesting instrument.
I'll reserve judgement until I've heard more demos or I might just get it anyway, damn it!!


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## lucor (Nov 23, 2015)

While I have to agree a bit on the "synthiness" of the sound, I still think the performance is a lot more important. And I'm pretty sure in that regard the SM Viola is superior to every other solo string library out there. Walid's second example alone is something that I don't see any other library doing in such a convincing way.

Looking forward to some experiments to build a whole Viola ensemble out of the many Violas included. Probably not something you would do often due to the CPU requirements that SM instruments usually have, but I'm curious how it would sound.


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## ZeeCount (Nov 23, 2015)

Just picked it up and already I can say this is hands down the best virtual viola I have ever tried (this is comparing to both LASS FC, VSL and Embertone). Playability is stunning and the sound is uncannily like a real viola. I did some quick demos with it doing some fast tremolo detached notes to show one of my friends who is a violinist and he was really impressed.

I was really disappointed with the flutes by Sample Modeling but this is a huge return to form by them.


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## FriFlo (Nov 24, 2015)

I would like to add, that there always seems to be a certain timbre that is just lost by physical modeling. The trumpet was the best and first favored by most, which may partly be, because it was the first to ever amaze people by its tweak ability and playability. But also because it may be easier to shape the waveforms of a trumpet dynamically and add vibrato etc. I am not saying the sample modeling Viola is perfect, I haven't even had the time to properly test it. But I am seeing from the demos already that it is (as usual with sample modeling) on another star regarding its controlability and this - to me - is the whole point of further sample development: to give the producer almost the same control as having a player perform for you. Is there no prettier trumpet sample the the sm trumpet? Of course there are, simply because the artificial reverb on the trumpet can never beat a recording on stage! But I will still often prefer the trumpet, simply because its performance will persuade the listener more, this shit is real!
I do see the point of some people saying, this Viola does sometimes not have the right timbre for a real Viola. Maybe, this is kind of the limit of what you can currently achieve by adding so much control over the instrument ... But saying, this is a bad release is in my mind the attitude of a spoiled kid! First, this instruments sounds better than any comparable one (not going to say names here!) and second it offers way more content and playability than any and last it is even pretty darn inexpensive! So, yes! I assume there will be some situations, where I will prefer samples with more beautiful timbre without the ability of really playing that instrument! But I will definitively buy this. Maybe they can even improve on the timbre a bit!


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## dormusic (Nov 24, 2015)

It breaks my heart to admit, but all SM woods (including viola) are bad. Their brass is top notch. They need to up their game. Currently Embertone holds the title of champions in the string section. They even have a relatively good clarinet.


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## Vlzmusic (Nov 24, 2015)

I`ve been thru remotely similar process with Wivi, almost 10 years ago now, gaining knowledge, training my ears, and realizing what is I really need from my musical tools, how and when to use them.

One thing catching my attention in this topic, is how one-sidedly the word "performance" being thrown around here - as if it immediately conveys some kind of superiority of one`s developer technique over others. If anything - the timbre is one of the most important parts of one`s "playing level", and that is heavily affected by the sustain part of the sound, plus tasteful vibrato technique, not just attacks and legato transitions.
That is what you pay for, buying those samples. That`s why some of the better sample libraries have great potential in music making, are very impressive to the listener, and aging really well, technologically speaking - more than one could expect.


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## Saxer (Nov 24, 2015)

Vlzmusic said:


> One thing catching my attention in this topic, is how one-sidedly the word "performance" being thrown around here - as if it immediately conveys some kind of superiority of one`s developer technique over others.


Well... it does.


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## Tobias Hanquist (Nov 24, 2015)

Here is 50 seconds of real-time (no midi-editing) Sample Modeling Viola-Fun.


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## lucor (Nov 24, 2015)

Tobias Hanquist said:


> Here is 50 seconds of real-time (no midi-editing) Sample Modeling Viola-Fun.




Seriously, who cares if the sound isn't 100% authentic when you're able to something like THIS with it?


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## quantum7 (Nov 24, 2015)

SM's brass is fantastic, but I'm not 100% convinced with the viola yet....at least from the video. It's VERY close, but I'm hearing something that I don't like....it's hard to put it into words. It's a great start though, and I may just buy it anyway. I'm hopeful that in perhaps a few short years we'll have 100% convincing sample modeled strings. If anyone can nail it 100%, my money would definitely be on the geniuses at SM.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Nov 24, 2015)

Hello,

Thank you at sample modelling for creating this interesting new virtual instrument. What is definetely impressing for me is the playability and expressivness. So for people who attach importance to performing, this might be the libary to go. As for me I don´t think I am going to buy it for a few reasons. First the sound: I am not really convinced by the tone. Some notes in the demos sound even almost awful at least for my ears. Whilst that things are probably not that obvious when you emerge the viola into a specific context with other instruments they become pretty clear when the viola is used in a very exposed context, e.g. having a solo (like in the demos). Performancewise it is superior, tonewise unfortuntely not.


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## resound (Nov 24, 2015)

I, too, am not 100% sold on the tone of this instrument. Maybe the viola was bad choice to start with, as the instrument itself can be naturally nasally and thin. But a great viola was a nice warmth too it that I feel like I am missing. The playability of the instrument is pretty impressive, however in the performances I have heard so far, most of them don't sound too convincing. I am sure with some tweaking you could get a much more believable performance. I have the SM trumpet and trombone which I love, but I am not sure I'll pick this one up. However, I wouldn't consider this a failure. Sample modeling technology can only get better and I look forward to see how developers can improve on sound and playability.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Nov 24, 2015)

I wanted also to add something:
You know, in the end I am again at that point where I don´t know what concept is targeted here or lets turn it this way: me as a freelancer I have hard times to get that luxury extra time in projects to spent on tweaking millions of knobs to get out of the vi a respectable sound. The viola has a tons of parameters, knobs etc. to tweak.So how much time you need to invest into a few bars so that they sound good? So, practically you are able to turn on a millions of knobs, but how effective can you work with such things, when you have a tight deadline in commercial projects (which is pretty normal)? I need sounds which sound out of the box good, and the rest is up to my own skill to let them sound really awesome or not. In the end this points here mentioned have not only to do with the Viola, as more in general with all that modelling instruments. Personally I don´t believe in the future of such concepts because they take too long time for the composer to let them sound convincing real. (And that few examples out there of the star wars renditions with sample modeling brass...I don´t want to know how long that sequencing took, but I guess maybe months? )Before I go with that stuff, I better hire live sessions musicians to do the job.


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## pmcrockett (Nov 24, 2015)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I wanted also to add something:
> You know, in the end I am again at that point where I don´t know what concept is targeted. The viola has a tons of parameters, knobs etc. to tweak. But honestly: How much time you need to invest into a few bars so that they sound good? So, practically you are able to turn on a millions of knobs, but how effective can you work with such things, when you have a tight deadline in commercial projects (which is pretty normal)? I need sounds which sound out of the box good, and the rest is up to my own skill to let them sound really awesome or not. In the end this points here have nothingwith the Viola in exception, as more in general with all that modelling instruments. Personally I don´t believe in the future of such concepts because they take too long time for the composer to let them sound convincing real. (And that few examples out there of the star wars renditions with sample modeling brass...I don´t want to know how long that sequencing took, but I guess maybe months? )Before I go with that stuff, I better hire live sessions musicians to do the job.


In my view, the issue here is not so much that modeled instruments have too many parameters or too much depth, but that MIDI controllers are still mostly based on a keyboard/modwheel paradigm that makes controlling these parameters in real-time almost impossible. MIDI hardware needs to catch up with modeling for us to get the most out of modeling.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Nov 24, 2015)

pmcrockett said:


> In my view, the issue here is not so much that modeled instruments have too many parameters or too much depth, but that MIDI controllers are still mostly based on a keyboard/modwheel paradigm that makes controlling these parameters in real-time almost impossible. MIDI hardware needs to catch up with modeling for us to get the most out of modeling.



Well, what makes the difference when you have the controller on your keyboard or within your daw? That doesn´t reduce the amount of controllers you have to control. Or did I misunderstand maybe your point? Of course there are intelligent concepts how to make things easier, and exactly that is what I miss often: Make the things a bit more effective and easier to use. I find it impressive that this instrument has all this tweaking knobs and still I never could work with it in my projects because it eats up to much time.


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## Walid F. (Nov 24, 2015)

lucor said:


> Seriously, who cares if the sound isn't 100% authentic when you're able to something like THIS with it?



I agree 100%. People are way too critical! It's only a 130 eur instrument and the programmability is fantastic so it's a very versatile instrument. And you can choose between a lot of different sound variations for "different violas" if you don't specifically like one sound. I think that when you do these soft things, it's when the instrument really shines now. I don't think there is anything out there more realistic than this at the moment.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12797960/quick_thing_SM_Viola2.mp3

W.


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## prodigalson (Nov 24, 2015)

I think pmrockett is talking about next generation EMC's (Expressive MIDI Controllers) like the Seaboard ROLI etc. 

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2015/09/09/roli-debuts-seaboard-rise-expressive-midi-controller/


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Nov 24, 2015)

prodigalson said:


> I think pmrockett is talking about next generation EMC's (Expressive MIDI Controllers) like the Seaboard ROLI etc.
> 
> http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2015/09/09/roli-debuts-seaboard-rise-expressive-midi-controller/


Thank you, I will take a further look later. Anyways: cool instrument and I hope it will find its place in the market.


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## FriFlo (Nov 24, 2015)

Well, it always depends ... of course a CS Tina Guo cinesamples sounds phenomenal with just a little bit of basic playing and mod-hweel riding. But you can only thow stuff at it, which it is made for. If you are that kind of composer that just wants great sounding instruments with little flexibility, then not any of the sample modeling stuff is really the right thing for you. But if you want something you can do kind of everything with - sometimes sounding convincing, sometimes less - that is what those instruments are for! Personally, I am way more interested in tools I can try out, what I can do with real instruments, because I am mostly interested in writing for those. Sometimes normal samples, if scripted right and recorded and great detail can bring you a little bit of both worlds. E.g., you can do a lot of phantastic stuff with the Noctur violin. But sometimes, you just won't find the right kind of transition or recorded expression to match, what you are after. And that is the point, where a sample modeling instrument virtually won't give you any limits. Does it sacrifice superior sound for that? Yes, sometimes. Most people here do not have one library, but multiple ones for the same instruments. I am no exception there! I also got some nice tools sounding great without a lot of work, like symphobia. But those are cheap tools IMO. They are exactly the reason why almost everyone sounds so similar today. So, I will continue to buy those sample modeling instruments, even if I won't use them in many of the final products done with virtual instruments. But they can inspire me to write stuff (which I mostly do with pen and paper, to start with), other libraries will suggest to sound bad.
I agree, the recent emotional cello release was kind of the best compromise between both of those philosopies, but even that one got some limits what you can throw at it ...


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## pmcrockett (Nov 24, 2015)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Well, what makes the difference when you have the controller on your keyboard or within your daw? That doesn´t reduce the amount of controllers you have to control. Or did I misunderstand maybe your point? Of course there are intelligent concepts how to make things easier, and exactly that is what I miss often: Make the things a bit more effective and easier to use. I find it impressive that this instrument has all this tweaking knobs and still I never could work with it in my projects because it eats up to much time.


I'm thinking mostly about the need for controllers that respond musically to a performance by adjusting the necessary parameters as part of the performance so that very little after-the-fact editing is needed. Some kind of system that gives you intuitive control over most of the parameters rather than requiring you to explicitly edit each one in a vacuum.

I'm currently playing around with a Lemur interface I'm designing to drive Samplemodeling instruments. Some of the core ideas:
*Notes are automatically read from a script rather then playing them via keyboard, which leaves both hands free to deal with expression-related tasks.
*Parameters such as pitch bend are linked to the notes they're associated with, which allows better precision.
*Vibrato rate and depth are controlled by moving your finger back and forth in a vibrato gesture, which helps eliminate the artificial sound.
*Parameters can be traded back and forth in real-time between being explicitly controlled, linked to each other, or linked to overall dynamic level, which lets you focus on specific things when they're important and hand them off to an automatic process when they're not.

These are the kinds of developments that need to happen to MIDI controllers, and they're mostly not happening in the world of commercially-available controllers because the market is so niche that they probably wouldn't be profitable.


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## Lawson. (Nov 24, 2015)

Walid F. said:


> I agree 100%. People are way too critical! It's only a 130 eur instrument and the programmability is fantastic so it's a very versatile instrument. And you can choose between a lot of different sound variations for "different violas" if you don't specifically like one sound. I think that when you do these soft things, it's when the instrument really shines now. I don't think there is anything out there more realistic than this at the moment.
> 
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12797960/quick_thing_SM_Viola2.mp3
> 
> W.



Wow, that blew me away. Wasn't a huge fan after listening to other demos, but yours convinced me.

And yes, I play viola.


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## reddognoyz (Nov 24, 2015)

I'm using a tec breath controller with all the sample modeling instruments, including the viola, which I really like. Again, put it in a nice sounding room and play it with lots of expression and it's damn good!


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## Walid F. (Nov 24, 2015)

Lawson. said:


> Wow, that blew me away. Wasn't a huge fan after listening to other demos, but yours convinced me.
> 
> And yes, I play viola.



Thanks man!! And here is another one where I took an old game score cue I did and added on this viola for fun. You can make really good stuff with this one.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12797960/game_cue_viola_add.mp3

W.


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## dormusic (Nov 24, 2015)

lucor said:


> Seriously, who cares if the sound isn't 100% authentic when you're able to something like THIS with it?
> https://m.soundcloud.com/tobias-hanquist/violafun#t=0:30


This demo really is the best yet. Bravo!!!
Still, the sound is pretty synthetic. Could you post this using a different viola patch/some kind of resonance IR to take the edge off of it?


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## leon chevalier (Nov 24, 2015)

I've got the feeling that a lot of people are confused because they compare this to the super soft and processed and shinny and cinematic viola sound from their cinematic library. But not to a real life viola. We (I include myself) tend to forget how sound a real orchestra/instrument. Even on classical CD the sound is over processed. I remember an orchestra player on TV talking about people who were disappointed by the sound after seen a real orchestra playing for the first time... I understand what people call synth sound. My first reaction was "Woo it is harsh" but then I remembered that I had the same reaction when a real violinist played one of my midi line for the first time


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## dormusic (Nov 24, 2015)

leon chevalier said:


> I've got the feeling that a lot of people are confused because they compare this to the super soft and processed and shinny and cinematic viola sound from their cinematic library. But not to a real life viola. We (I include myself) tend to forget how sound a real orchestra/instrument. Even on classical CD the sound is over processed. I remember an orchestra player on TV talking about people who were disappointed by the sound after seen a real orchestra playing for the first time... I understand what people call synth sound. My first reaction was "Woo it is harsh" but then I remembered that I had the same reaction when a real violinist played one of my midi line for the first time


I am a real-world composer and had my pieces performed by several orchestras. I know what a viola sounds like, and believe me when I tell you this VI has a very serious problem.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 24, 2015)

apessino said:


> Yes, and the fact that he is massively out of tune most of the time does not help either.
> 
> I am sorry to say but at least in that video it sounded really horrible to me. Here is a random clip of an actual jazzy naked viola playing. Listen to this and then go back to the SM video and tell me it sounds realistic...
> 
> ...




Interestingly enough, that guy sounds pretty consistently flat to me. Nice player, but.

I absolutely hear the tone problems that others are hearing with the Sample Modeling viola,but I'm at admitted SM fanboy, mostly because of the incredible realtime performance possibilities of their instruments. I will undoubtedly end up buying this and screwing endlessly with eq to get something a bit more pleasing out of it, but regardless- in the proper context, I very much believe I'll be able to get something that feels like it was performed, and it will sound that way, esepcially in the proper context.

Now, if they would only upgrade my Kontakt saxes to SWAM for a more reasonable price....


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## FriFlo (Nov 25, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> Now, if they would only upgrade my Kontakt saxes to SWAM for a more reasonable price....


That indeed is my only scuffle with those guys, too! Dedicated SM fanboy here, but I am still mad at them for pulling that off (having bought every single instrument from them before, including the saxes and the soprano).


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## Erik (Nov 25, 2015)

Hi,

I have spent some hours with the SM-viola now. Herewith I would like to offer you an example of what this product is capable of, at least in my hands. I have used the opening section of Schubert's Sonata for Arpeggione. The Arpeggione part is performed usually by players of the viola or violoncello. Since it is one of my favourite pieces, which I have performed once as classical guitarist with a viola player, I thought to give it a try.

So, here we are. Let's say it wasn't a five minute job to be honest. I have my thoughts about the result, but I prefer to leave them with me for the moment, because I am more interested in yours.

To be honest, I didn't like many of the demos on the SM-site too much, some are really unappealing (like the Czardas) to put it friendly. I am convinced of all efforts the team has made before offering us this modeled viola, but there must have been some hurry with the demos maybe.

I have made three tracks.

1. http://www.erikotte.nl/VI/Arpeggione_vla_piano_final.mp3 (The final mastered version of the excerpt with piano and viola.) The piano is from Pianoteq 5, the D4 a bit modified however, moreover because I was interested in the mix of two modeled instruments.

2. http://www.erikotte.nl/VI/Arpeggione_vla_solo_final.mp3 (The viola part solo this time, so starting directly). Also in the mastered version.

3. http://www.erikotte.nl/VI/Arpeggione_vla_solo_no_mastering.mp3 (The very naked viola here), no further use of whatever plugin.

I hope this will help the discussion on a next level here. The main question should be here maybe if the SM-viola is capable of covering the nasal and sometimes even bit sharp basic sound of the real one. Please enjoy.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Nov 25, 2015)

Erik said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have spent some hours with the SM-viola now. Herewith I would like to offer you an example of what this product is capable of, at least in my hands. I have used the opening section of Schubert's Sonata for Arpeggione. The Arpeggione part is performed usually by players of the viola or violoncello. Since it is one of my favourite pieces, which I have performed once as classical guitarist with a viola player, I thought to give it a try.
> 
> ...



Hi Erik,

thank you for the demo. You have done a really good demo here. I listened to it a couple of times. The question for me is at you: Was your approach to mimic a live performance or mimic a real thing? In that case it is for me pretty clear that this is done by a virtual instrument here, ecspecially when you compare it to a real live performance (e.g. the yura lee one on the viola). I did a short test with my other half and even she (though she is not coming with that composers listening background) could tell pretty easily which one is real or not.) But when you take the demo as a nice track on its own it is really good. May I ask how many minutes / Hours you spent in finalizing the track?


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## NYC Composer (Nov 25, 2015)

I assume you eq'd in the mastered version? Sounds closer to what I would try- though I might pick different frequencies, I think yours is getting there. I think it's going to take some time (for me at least)


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## Baron Greuner (Nov 25, 2015)

Yeah thanks for the demos Erik. It still sounds crap to me though so your demos were useful.

@lean chevalier

Most people aren't disappointed at the sound of a real orchestra for the first time because they mostly have no idea what sound is. What they are really disappointed about is the volume. They find the volume to be really quiet compared to the noise they get from a cinema or their headphones.


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## Erik (Nov 25, 2015)

@AlexanderSchiborr. It was intended as a track on his own, more what I would do musically now with these notes. I must say, while working on it I easily forgot sometimes what I was confronted with after a period of rest and listening then: that the result never can compete with the real thing. Strings are so hard to emulate apparently.
I had worked on it for I guess two hours or maybe more, included the learning curve. I would have done this now in less than a half hour.

@NYC Composer. Yes I did some dynamic EQ in this case.

@Baron Greuner. Haha! Thanks for your honesty...


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## Baron Greuner (Nov 25, 2015)

Well done Erik. 

The problem for me is that it sounds almost as if it's been hollowed out. Not just your demos. Any solo instrument in the string family is really difficult to get right seemingly. Forgetting the part about how these things operate vis a vi their playability etc. the only one that sounds close to me atm is probably the Cello from Best Service or Best Sounds, I forget the name.


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## pmcrockett (Nov 25, 2015)

Erik said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have spent some hours with the SM-viola now. Herewith I would like to offer you an example of what this product is capable of, at least in my hands. I have used the opening section of Schubert's Sonata for Arpeggione. The Arpeggione part is performed usually by players of the viola or violoncello. Since it is one of my favourite pieces, which I have performed once as classical guitarist with a viola player, I thought to give it a try.
> 
> ...


My impression is that the note attacks are a bit off, which has been my impression for all of the demos I've heard so far. In this particular case, the attacks seem too similar for too long within any given section, and there a lot of instances where I'd expect to hear a little bite on the attack but get repeated mushy attacks instead.

Not having used the viola yet, I can only speculate as to how to resolve this. My guess is that getting attacks to work properly is going to involve having substantial expression spikes that quickly fall back to the actual desired expression level at the starts of some notes, or possibly setting up the bowing parameters so that more force/bite/whatever is applied when you spike the expression controller like this. It's one of those things that will be a massive timesink to edit by hand and will probably give best results if it can be scripted as part of a performance interface.


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## Rob (Nov 25, 2015)

well, the timbre may not be 100% there, but the level of control on expressivity is above every other sample based violas I've heard... and I love the harmonics in this viola... 
At least, I'm not able to get the following (in terms of expression) from my other libraries...

www.robertosoggetti.com/ViolaSWAM.mp3

I'll do one more with the different techniques if I have the time


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## rayinstirling (Nov 25, 2015)

Roberto, it's not like you to have an instrument swimming in reverb.


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## murrthecat (Nov 25, 2015)

s


Rob said:


> well, the timbre may not be 100% there, but the level of control on expressivity is above every other sample based violas I've heard... and I love the harmonics in this viola...
> At least, I'm not able to get the following (in terms of expression) from my other libraries...
> 
> www.robertosoggetti.com/ViolaSWAM.mp3
> ...


I don't own it yet, but I think (and expect) it is also worth for the ability to "modulate" from one technique to the other, which cannot be done with other sample based violas (maybe Embertone does that). And controlling bow pressure is a big feature I have not seen elsewhere.


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## Rob (Nov 25, 2015)

rayinstirling said:


> Roberto, it's not like you to have an instrument swimming in reverb.


But Ray that's a viola in a cave, the classic environment for viola concertos


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## germancomponist (Nov 25, 2015)

I like your demo, Rob!


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## MA-Simon (Nov 25, 2015)

Rob said:


> www.robertosoggetti.com/ViolaSWAM.mp3


Amazing!


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## FriFlo (Nov 25, 2015)

Rob said:


> well, the timbre may not be 100% there, but the level of control on expressivity is above every other sample based violas I've heard... and I love the harmonics in this viola...
> At least, I'm not able to get the following (in terms of expression) from my other libraries...
> 
> www.robertosoggetti.com/ViolaSWAM.mp3
> ...


Amazing! Thanks for writing the soundtrack to my speech, Rob!  It's not perfect, but everybody should realize by now how expressive this is ...


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## Casiquire (Nov 25, 2015)

I'm so happy this finally happened. I know I'm late to the party but whatever, this still makes me happy!


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## NYC Composer (Nov 25, 2015)

Nice job, Rob! (of course). What kind of EQ curve did you use?


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## Stefano Lucato (Nov 25, 2015)

.
Thank you all for your constructive criticism, very precious for us. 
We work uninterruptedly to improve the instruments. The good thing is that modeling instruments allow a large scope for improvement, both in behavioral properties and in timbre qualities. 
We will take into account every suggestions.

Stefano & Emanuele
SWAM Team
.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 25, 2015)

Stefano Lucato said:


> .
> Thank you all for your constructive criticism, very precious for us.
> We work uninterruptedly to improve the instruments. The good thing is that modeling instruments allow a large scope for improvement, both in behavioral properties and in timbre qualities.
> We will take into account every suggestions.
> ...


Great to know, and I am definitely purchasing this instrument, as I have so many SampleModeling instruments!

Hey, any comment on the Kontakt to SWAM update for the saxes? You guys ever going to offer a reasonable price for something that was already purchased once by us loyal customers??


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## MrCambiata (Nov 25, 2015)

Rob said:


> But Ray that's a viola in a cave, the classic environment for viola concertos [/QUOTE





Rob said:


> well, the timbre may not be 100% there, but the level of control on expressivity is above every other sample based violas I've heard... and I love the harmonics in this viola...
> At least, I'm not able to get the following (in terms of expression) from my other libraries...
> 
> www.robertosoggetti.com/ViolaSWAM.mp3
> ...


Wonderful!


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## Rob (Nov 26, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> Nice job, Rob! (of course). What kind of EQ curve did you use?


Hi Larry, no eq... but I've activated the sordino , and customized the controllers. If you have it, I can share the patch...


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## Giorgio Tommasini (Nov 26, 2015)

Stefano Lucato said:


> .
> Thank you all for your constructive criticism, very precious for us.
> We work uninterruptedly to improve the instruments. The good thing is that modeling instruments allow a large scope for improvement, both in behavioral properties and in timbre qualities.
> We will take into account every suggestions.
> ...




That's great news. We have always believed that this instrument has great potential and can only improve.
It's quite a time that we are looking forward to improvements taking into account our own suggestions, as well as those of qualified beta testers 

Giorgio & Peter


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## FriFlo (Nov 26, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> Great to know, and I am definitely purchasing this instrument, as I have so many SampleModeling instruments!
> 
> Hey, any comment on the Kontakt to SWAM update for the saxes? You guys ever going to offer a reasonable price for something that was already purchased once by us loyal customers??


Stefano cannot answer that as he is not financially in charge of the company. I had a lengthy email discussion about this with Giorgio Tommasini. He was polite about it, but firmly repeating the same thing they posted on their forum. It's a new product, etc. I still think, that was a stupid move, because they had an unspoiled reputation up to that point. But I guess Mr. Tommassini is to proud to admit that, even when it is obvious. Well, as long as they won't reconsider that, I will keep telling that people, but I will also keep telling how great those instrumnts are. I would prefer to leave out the first, but I have a long term memory for such things ... and I am pretty stubborn myself!


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## NYC Composer (Nov 26, 2015)

I might be the biggest advocate of SampleModeling products anywhere. This one decision frustrates the heck out of me, not because of the money, but because I absolutely believe it's unfair. I know I'm not the only one.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 26, 2015)

Rob said:


> Hi Larry, no eq... but I've activated the sordino , and customized the controllers. If you have it, I can share the patch...


Rob, I'm traveling through the American holiday, but when I get back I'm going to purchase it and I'll reach out to you. Thanks for your kind offer- cheers!


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## mike753 (Nov 26, 2015)

This is a track where I have originally used another solo string instrument and replaced it now with the Sample Modeling viola. Even if you don't like the timbre, I could not have achieved this with the other (very good) or any other solo string library I have.


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## marcotronic (Nov 27, 2015)

Rob said:


> well, the timbre may not be 100% there, but the level of control on expressivity is above every other sample based violas I've heard... and I love the harmonics in this viola...
> At least, I'm not able to get the following (in terms of expression) from my other libraries...
> 
> www.robertosoggetti.com/ViolaSWAM.mp3
> ...




This is excellent! If this was an official demo they would definitely sell a lot more copies...

Marco


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## Silence-is-Golden (Nov 27, 2015)

Rob said:


> well, the timbre may not be 100% there, but the level of control on expressivity is above every other sample based violas I've heard... and I love the harmonics in this viola...
> At least, I'm not able to get the following (in terms of expression) from my other libraries...
> 
> www.robertosoggetti.com/ViolaSWAM.mp3
> ...



Hello Roberto,

This sounds very convincing for a vi viola. As I understood you have used some settings amongst which con sordino.
My question is whether you have played this in one go, or whether there was a lot of tweaking with cc's afterwards?
And what kind of controlers did you use, keyboard or also equipment like tecontrol breath controllers?
Thank you in advance.


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## Rob (Nov 27, 2015)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> Hello Roberto,
> 
> This sounds very convincing for a vi viola. As I understood you have used some settings amongst which con sordino.
> My question is whether you have played this in one go, or whether there was a lot of tweaking with cc's afterwards?
> ...


hi Silence, yes I use an ewi-usb, but only for inputting cc11 data... so, notes played on the keyboard while blowing the ewi in real time, one pass - then, manually add cc1 for vibrato in the midi track and some refinement, mainly slightly shorting notes preceding notes that need attack...


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## Silence-is-Golden (Nov 27, 2015)

Rob said:


> hi Silence, yes I use an ewi-usb, but only for inputting cc11 data... so, notes played on the keyboard while blowing the ewi in real time, one pass - then, manually add cc1 for vibrato in the midi track and some refinement, mainly slightly shorting notes preceding notes that need attack...



Then: credit to you and your musical abilities, this is indeed to me the best 'demo' I heared so far. 
I assume that if you post your effort with samplemodeling they will welcome it.

And now it means getting this viola as well.....
Thank you kindly for your responses.


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## kavinsky (Nov 27, 2015)

Rob's demo is very convincing.
I was skeptical after watching promo videos but now I'm leaning towards getting it.

PS got it and I can't express how awesome it is. 
great job, samplemodeling!


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## PerryD (Nov 27, 2015)

I played a quick solo test here. Real time with a breath controller, no EQ, just some external reverb. Loving it so far! -Perry-


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## Saxer (Nov 28, 2015)

beautiful performance!


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## Hanu_H (Nov 28, 2015)

Sounds really amazing Perry!

-Hannes


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## Walid F. (Nov 28, 2015)

Beautiful Perry. 

W.


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## Rob (Nov 28, 2015)

Orcel said:


> Hello Rob, I bought VIOLA and I did some tests. When I listen to your demo witch is well played, I hear to much compressor. For that kind of sound you need a transparent compressor. When I have that kind of sound, witch need to be stabilised I use the V76 (included in Native Komplete) Very powerful but without adding attack. After what, you can add Reverb. In this case, first a Room to give a natural color to the dry sound. After you can add a Hall (for fun) but not before. I hope it helps


hi Orcel, I wonder how can you hear too much compression in a track that have absolutely no compression whatsoever in it... not on the viola track nor on the master output... you seem to trust you ears a tad too much, with all due respect


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## Hannes_F (Nov 28, 2015)

PerryD said:


> I played a quick solo test here. Real time with a breath controller, no EQ, just some external reverb. Loving it so far! -Perry-



Interesting how it begins to sound saxophone-like!


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## NYC Composer (Nov 28, 2015)

Interesting- didn't sound saxophone-like to me at all.


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## LondonMike (Nov 28, 2015)

Rob said:


> hi Orcel, I wonder how can you hear too much compression in a track that have absolutely no compression whatsoever in it... not on the viola track nor on the master output... you seem to trust you ears a tad too much, with all due respect


Could the SWAM engine's own compression be on? I only say that because the default for the Saxophones is for it to be at 50%. Not that I wish to get involved in your argument- just saying.


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## wpc982 (Nov 28, 2015)

For me, the reason to have a solo viola is for chamber music, and 'playability' out of the box is not at all important.




edit .. references deleted, sorry for taking thread on a derailment ... following posts deleted too, since comparisons probably should be done with much more care to be fair.


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## wpc982 (Nov 28, 2015)

deleted


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## rayinstirling (Nov 29, 2015)

William, following the listen to your examples I understand why performance is unimportant to you. You obviously have little idea on how to impart any on a vsti.


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## wpc982 (Nov 29, 2015)

Well, there's an opinion! But please quote me right: "playability" is unimportant. As to performance, my example was intended to show that when you have five equal, quiet lines, they must be kept in a careful balance with the other voices.


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## rayinstirling (Nov 29, 2015)

IMHO playability and performance go hand in hand when the means for said performance is by the use of virtual instruments.
Playability in the right hands creates performance however, putting the right sound triggered by inadequate midi control results in forgettable end result.


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## wpc982 (Nov 29, 2015)

The reason I'm not a fan of playability has been said by others: with two hands on a keyboard and one foot pedal, you simply can not play a different instrument effectively. So my objection, like yours, is about the performance! Of the demos in this thread that I listened to, none of them sounded like a violist playing a viola to me. They all sounded like a person with a keyboard and a synth. 

edit -- deleted derailments


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## LondonMike (Nov 29, 2015)

I think what we all seek is to achieve a MUSICAL result. Using virtual instruments always involves a great deal of compromise. Sometimes you have to sacrifice tone in favour of expressivity but if you sacrifice expressivity then you degrade the listening experience IMHO.
Playability is something of a bonus for the programmer as it is far more satisfying to be able to play a line with the correct expression than to spend hours drawing in CCs and key switches.


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## Erik (Nov 29, 2015)

*Elegy *for viola solo, written by Benjamin Britten. I wasn't very familiar with it, but this was welcome source to experiment with the SM-viola. Since this piece is quite long I only did the first two minutes.I tried to follow the score as meticulously as possible, dynamics and indicated articulations included. Rubato is as always a matter of personal taste. http://www.erikotte.nl/VI/Britten_Elegy.mp3 (I hope that the result is appealing enough for some of you.)I think that the SM-viola can be a hyper expressive and very versatile instrument compared to many sampled versions. 

Fluffy Audio did the same piece with their new viola btw. Nice to compare things, as usual.

Eager to know your opinions (again).


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## rayinstirling (Nov 29, 2015)

Hi Erik,
I know from previous experience how thin skinned you are so I'll say no more.


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## rgames (Nov 29, 2015)

I think Samplemodeling should be applauded for moving sampling technology in a different direction. We've been in a rut for about a decade now - the last real sampling advance was when VSL introduced a method for dealing with note transitions (which was adopted by everyone else). So good work on using technology to further the ability to put expression into software instruments. In 200 years this type of expression might be the norm.

Brass instruments didn't have valves when they were first used. Even as late as Brahms there were composers who refused to write for the valved horn because it was "new-fangled technology" and altered the sound of the legacy technology. Technology has always worked its way into music - I'm grateful I have the modern clarinet to play and not the one around when Mozart wrote his clarinet concerto. Certainly each technological increment had an effect on the instrument and the one that I play today sounds different than the one that was standard in the late 18th century. But it's still an expressive instrument capable of producing beautiful music.

To be honest, I don't think it's a convincing emulation of a viola. But why should it be? It's an instrument in its own right - related but different. Kind of like the difference between a harpsichord and a piano. Or, more precisely, like the difference between a natural horn and a valved horn, wherein the technology changed the sound of the instrument in order to expand the expressive possibilities.

A piano doesn't sound like a viola, either. There are lots of instruments that sound nothing like a viola but are very expressive instruments capable of producing beautiful music.

Just because it doesn't sound like a viola doesn't mean it's not a useful instrument. More importantly, if it pushes technology towards more expressive instruments, we should all embrace it because it's going to take us to expressive possibilities that we haven't even thought of yet, just like the valved horn. Samplemodeling is the only sampling company I'm aware of that is really doing that. Everyone else is using the same techniques that have been around for a decade (or, in the case of synthesizers, several decades).

So kudos, and keep at it 

rgames


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## Sid Francis (Nov 29, 2015)

Erik: to hear that you are thin skinned (like me) makes me say it this way: after listening to your example and comparing it to the other one, I just finally bought the other one  (playing really totally aside, just comparing the sound) So your contribution was really really helpful: thank you! I love your other string comparisons very much as well so thanks also for these. For me playability is important but an appealing emotional basic sound is superior to everything and hard to achieve in the sample world. The Trio Broz Viola is seemingly the best for me atm since i do not need a lot of articulations: just emotive vibrato longs for emotive vibrato melodies


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## rayinstirling (Nov 29, 2015)

Good on you Sid, as long as you're happy there's nothing more to discuss.


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## PerryD (Nov 30, 2015)

Hannes_F said:


> Interesting how it begins to sound saxophone-like!


 Everyone hears things differently, and rightly so!  Interesting to me how these saxophones begin to sound very orchestral!


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## PerryD (Nov 30, 2015)

It is a beautiful performance, by the way.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Dec 2, 2015)

At the moment, after changing some settings ( and with the sordino on, like roberto has done) the overall sound is quite ok, except this organic feeling that is obviously missing in the digital domains.

Occasionally in some regions it sounds a bit less real, as well as the staccato- spicatto articulations I find hard too make sound convincing all the time.

But for various styles, even more asian/ eastern style playing you can get near a viola sound as the real instrument.

If samplemoddeling indeed keeps updating this library as they said in this thread then it might turn out in all articulations very good.

Positive overall in my experience so far.


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## Jan16 (Dec 6, 2015)

Roger Linn posted a clip demonstrating what can be done with the Viola. 
I think it sounds terrific, and it shows what can be done in realtime with the right kind of controller.


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## DocMidi657 (Dec 6, 2015)

here's a little test, Used EAREverb2 on it and rolled off a little high end.


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## chimuelo (Dec 6, 2015)

Thats got a sweet tone man.
Hows CPU looking with Sample Modelling stuff?
Can you use them across cores and assign them where needed?
Love the gliss. Tone changes as it climbs.
Does it also do that while descending..?

Thanks nice little piece too.


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## DocMidi657 (Dec 6, 2015)

[soundcloud url="http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/*17548011*" iframe="true" /]


chimuelo said:


> Thats got a sweet tone man.
> Hows CPU looking with Sample Modelling stuff?
> Can you use them across cores and assign them where needed?
> Love the gliss. Tone changes as it climbs.
> ...


CPU looks low, I'm on Logic so not sure about the core thing. Sound like it changes when you drop pitch (descend) as well, Very happy with it "after I added EAReverb2".


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## Vardaro (Dec 8, 2015)

I play classical viola, I have two very different violas, and I hear and try many others.
This VI, however remarkable, does definitely not sound like a viola! 
As with Synful Orchestra, the tone has warmth and fizz, but no "grain", as if its harmonics were all perfectly mathematical (my guess?),which just never happens with real strings.
Noise-behind-the-signal is not enough, perhaps it needs some clever form of distortion.

Also, I find the some note transitions and attacks (in the demos) sound very "synthy", particularly, in faster passages.

I'm sure there is enormous scope for this "viola" though.


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## pmcrockett (Dec 8, 2015)

Having now had a chance to use the viola, some initial impressions:

Everyone's playing the instrument too loud. You should stay in the lower half or even third of the expression range unless you need a momentary expression spike (I suggest moving the expression response curve adjuster to the right in the options screen). Kind of makes sense, since you run out of bow very quickly when playing a real viola with a constantly high bow speed -- these speeds are used for short notes and accents, not sustained notes. Keeping the expression level appropriately low gives a more pleasing tone, and the large amount of expression headroom it leaves you allows for much more dynamic expression from moment to moment, which is something most of the demos I've heard lack. This is a big enough issue that the manual explicitly discusses it before even discussing how to use the software, calling the use of the correct expression range "extremely important" (see pg. 6).

Notch EQing improves the timbre, and each different model needs to be EQ'd differently. I've been going through and removing wolf frequencies in the A1 model which thins out the sound and helps remove a bit of the synthiness/boxiness/too-closeness of the default sound. I think I've achieved something that will sit a little better in a mix than most of the things that have showed up in demos so far.

I don't have an example of my own yet, since I'm still experimenting with the best way to control the instrument.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 8, 2015)

Jan16 said:


> Roger Linn posted a clip demonstrating what can be done with the Viola.
> I think it sounds terrific, and it shows what can be done in realtime with the right kind of controller.



Speaking as a forum member, not as a mod:

For a keyboard it is terrific (perhaps).

If it were a student on a real instrument who delivers this, he would not pass the entrance examination for the conservatoire. Honestly, probably not even into an amateur orchestra, not to talk about a professional orchestra. And that is not even talking about the tone. Just saying ....

I am not saying it is not possible, just that even with all that technology to your help you'll need to practise, practise, practise ... or it will always be a shiny toy, not an instrument.

EDIT I should add: From a technological point of view of course my highest respect for the effort that has been put in both the VI and the Linn keyboard!


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## FriFlo (Dec 8, 2015)

Hannes_F said:


> Speaking as a forum member, not as a mod:
> 
> For a keyboard it is terrific (perhaps).
> 
> ...


Yeah, I have the same feeling about the Roli Seaboard! Amazed by what is possible, but haven't seen any emulation of real instruments (including sample modeling) that really struck me as close to the real thing. It seems impossible to emulate the vibrato of a string player on such a device. Maybe you can tell us, why ...
But as an keybaord player to get a feeling for expression it is a great tool. Even if it is just for improvising something, to write down for real strings to play. And most important: Those devices offer new ways of playing synths! I have to get one at some point just for that reason.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 8, 2015)

Hannes_F said:


> Speaking as a forum member, not as a mod:
> 
> For a keyboard it is terrific (perhaps).
> 
> ...


I agree. It seems like a really awkward way to control a sampled instrument. Like you, I really respect the technical achievement, and perhaps after a while there will be virtuosos on it, but I highly doubt I'll ever attempt to be one of them.


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## Jan16 (Dec 9, 2015)

Hannes_F said:


> Speaking as a forum member, not as a mod:
> 
> For a keyboard it is terrific (perhaps).
> 
> ...


I think you missed the point of the clip.
It was not to show off the virtuoso skills of Roger Linn or to pass through the hoolahoops of a music conservatory entrance exam, but rather how with just one hand you are able to control a wide variety of expressions and articulations in a direct intuitive way.

It's clear that opinions about the viola differ, but how anyone can dismiss it as a synth tone or a saxophone tone is beyond me.
From the first note it is obvious to me that this is a viola, and the real time expression just playing it is amazing.
It may not be perfect, but I honestly think it sounds great.


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## bsl (Dec 9, 2015)

Virtual Instrument vs Sample Library
Two different concepts and philosophies.
Both useful.


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## Vardaro (Dec 9, 2015)

I'm sorry, it sounds like it's _meant_ to be a viola.
The "synthy" side may come from some of the buzzy attacks, which do _not_ sound like bowing, but may explain the "sax" references.

Vibrato? The real thing is very, very subtle: a modulation of frequency, loudness, and last but not least, timbre; and constantly varied, (even the "humming-bird" sort.) Also, in a real fiddle, the instrument's formants do not move up and down wth the note.

Transitions? A row of notes in one bow-stroke is hard to emulate: there is a kind of subtle "pop" on each note which I have yet to hear on any library, sampled or modeled.

I may yet buy it, though, for my demos, as my ageing fingers are stiffening, and it' s kinder on the RAM than the enticing Embertone viola, with it's giga of "post-modeled" (and realistic) samples. (And for a similar price.)


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## reddognoyz (Dec 9, 2015)

this is by far the most expressive solo string I've played. I would emphasize the word played because I have heard amazing things with the embertone violin and the Orchestral tools violin, as well as others. But for straight playing in a part, or improv'ing a melody as I do all the time, this works great and I have no quarrel with the tone. It works for me.


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## Vardaro (Dec 9, 2015)

reddognoyz said:


> this is by far the most expressive solo string I've played. I would emphasize the word played because I have heard amazing things with the embertone violin and the Orchestral tools violin, as well as others. But for straight playing in a part, or improv'ing a melody as I do all the time, this works great and I have no quarrel with the tone. It works for me.


I absolutely agree with everyone about it's fantastic expressive possibilities: I just prefer wood to plastic, as it were.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 9, 2015)

More to the point: do you like the sound produced by this instrument, regardless of what you call the resultant sound? Do you find that sound, as a friend would say, felicitous? Do you find it expressive, evocative?

If the answer to these questions is yes, you could call it a banana-phone, and it would still have value.


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## Vardaro (Dec 10, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> More to the point: do you like the sound produced by this instrument, regardless of what you call the resultant sound? Do you find that sound, as a friend would say, felicitous? Do you find it expressive, evocative?
> 
> If the answer to these questions is yes, you could call it a banana-phone, and it would still have value.


I just want it to sound like my viola, but play better!


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## reddognoyz (Dec 10, 2015)

I actually want nothing to sound like a viola, weak little hafling, not the soaring, keening quality of the violin, it's feet mired in quicksand, and none of the gravitas of it's big brother the Cello, stern and then sobbing by turns.


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## Vardaro (Dec 10, 2015)

reddognoyz said:


> I actually want nothing to sound like a viola, weak little hafling, not the soaring, keening quality of the violin, it's feet mired in quicksand, and none of the gravitas of it's big brother the Cello, stern and then sobbing by turns.


Splendid description! Makes me feel a bit like a Hobbit...


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## Baron Greuner (Dec 10, 2015)

I wonder how many people here actually know what the function of Viola section is actually for. Serious question btw so don't try and impress me with Viola jokes (I made most of them up).


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## NYC Composer (Dec 10, 2015)

Hey, as a former (horrible) schoolboy violist and complete autodidact, I'll take a shot.

The viola is the high baritone/low tenor of the string section. It bridges the gap between the high range of the celli and the low range of the second violin section. It can be used in unison with violins to add warmth and grain, or in divisi for mid range thickening in conjunction with celli. The viola section also blends pleasingly with mid range brass like French horns and trombones, or lower winds like bassoon and clarinets. It also doubles well in octaves with higher woodwinds.

The above is what I've discovered in my orchestral explorations sans textbooks.


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## reddognoyz (Dec 10, 2015)

Baron Greuner said:


> I wonder how many people here actually know what the function of Viola section is actually for. Serious question btw so don't try and impress me with Viola jokes (I made most of them up).



Employing failed violinists??? 


I actually don't. Please elaborate. I use them for glue mostly


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## NYC Composer (Dec 10, 2015)

:::failed violinist AND violist:::


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## thesteelydane (Dec 10, 2015)

reddognoyz said:


> I actually want nothing to sound like a viola, weak little hafling, not the soaring, keening quality of the violin, it's feet mired in quicksand, and none of the gravitas of it's big brother the Cello, stern and then sobbing by turns.



Ahem....


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## NYC Composer (Dec 10, 2015)

I dunno- she sounds a little grainy. Her formants don't sound real- maybe not enough round robins?


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## thesteelydane (Dec 10, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> I dunno- she sounds a little grainy. Her formants don't sound real- maybe not enough round robins?


 
I know you're joking, but seriously....THAT sound and THAT musicality makes me cry and feel good at the same time. It's why we play, even though I know damn well that I'll never get THERE.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 10, 2015)

I think Roberto Soggetti could mock up that piece using the SM Viola and come up with a very evocative performance.


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## Baron Greuner (Dec 10, 2015)

reddognoyz said:


> I actually don't. Please elaborate. I use them for glue mostly



You use them for glue mostly?

Christ!

No wonder most music written today is designed to saw my brain in half.

Yes Larry, very well put more or less. Couldn't describe it better. 

Currently sitting here watching The Quiller Memorandum. Not many violas going on but when John Barry hits the strings you get good sense of Viola warmth somewhere in there.


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## thesteelydane (Dec 10, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> I think Roberto Soggetti could mock up that piece using the SM Viola and come up with a very evocative performance.



If he has the musical imagination of Kim Kashkashian, evocative - probably yes. Sound like a real viola, definitely no. And that is at it should be. I think we're talking past each other here. There is something that comes from having played thousands of concerts in front of thousands of people, having spent your life stage, communicating your soul through other people's music, that no one writing music with a sampled instrument in front a computer will ever have. I listen to that Kashkashian performance and 20 seconds in I'm crying.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 10, 2015)

Speaking as a forum member, not as a moderator:

OK, I have been asked about the opinions that I wrote into this thread, especially the saxophone story.

First forgive me, I like to put myself in front of provokative statements often, and sometimes I transfer that to others (which I should not). I don't see these statements as an absolute truth but more as a working hypothesis that pushes me forward - and might be disproved. Perhaps this comes from my scientific background because in fundamental physics you do that all the time. But I see it can confuse towards others, so I promise to soften that.

Then, I did not mean or say that PerryD's beautiful example sounded exactly like a sax like in "I could mistake it as a saxophone". What I meant was: The example had to me some characteristics of a blown instrument that perhaps came from the wind controller that Perry used. To be more precise, the slurs were too long for a bow. Plus, it has a noise that reminds me more to a wind instrument than to a string instrument. In sum it had some characteristics of a blown instrument to me rather than a bowed one and in search for an alto wind I choose the saxophone as an example.

To make this clearer and back up what I mean I recorded a quick example with a real viola that you might find useful for comparision. I have split it up so you can study it better the characteristics and perhaps you can make use of the actual bowing and the arc that we do on string instruments. First you hear PerryD's rendering, then my stuff:

http://www.strings-on-demand.com/demos/PerryDs_Viola.mp3


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## germancomponist (Dec 10, 2015)

Hannes_F said:


> First forgive me, I like to put myself in front of provokative statements often, and sometimes I transfer that to others (which I should not).


Just like me!
You are welcome, my friend!


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## NYC Composer (Dec 10, 2015)

thesteelydane said:


> If he has the musical imagination of Kim Kashkashian, evocative - probably yes. Sound like a real viola, definitely no. And that is at it should be. I think we're talking past each other here. There is something that comes from having played thousands of concerts in front of thousands of people, having spent your life stage, communicating your soul through other people's music, that no one writing music with a sampled instrument in front a computer will ever have. I listen to that Kashkashian performance and 20 seconds in I'm crying.


I understand you have a deep emotional connection to that player and that music. It's very nice- but it didn't make me cry. Like many things, music is highly subjective.

I'm not sure what you're going for here- assent? Ok- the SM doesn't sound like a great viola played by a wonderful player.
Now we can go on with our lives.


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## reddognoyz (Dec 10, 2015)

Baron Greuner said:


> You use them for glue mostly?
> 
> Christ!
> 
> ...



I dunno " blends well with xxx.... bridges the high cellos w the low violins... sounds like glue to me : ) 

I am just being obtuse of course. In the right hands it is as lovely as any of the strings. I Didn't know Kim Kardashian even played the viola!!


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## NYC Composer (Dec 10, 2015)

(violas ARE often sort of glue-y, Baron).


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## Casiquire (Dec 10, 2015)

Heh violas are great glue. If you ask me though they sound better than violins and should take more solos.


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## Baron Greuner (Dec 11, 2015)

Cheesus Larry.

I just can't get my head around Ludo and Wolfy having a friggin conversation about glue.


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## muk (Dec 11, 2015)

Hannes_F said:


> First you hear PerryD's rendering, then my stuff



Beautifully played, Hannes.


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## Vardaro (Dec 11, 2015)

Hannes_F said:


> First you hear PerryD's rendering, then my stuff:


Well done Hannes, I shall buy it when next month's pension comes in..
The excess smoothness of the actual tone is compensated by the realistic vibrato and well-chosen transitions & attacks.
This can be true of a real viola with a dullish tone: we liven it up with dynamic bowing, finger action, and vibrato.
You have also chosen a much better basic tone, and subtle rubatos.
And I find the "noise" element more string-like.

I found Perry's demo very musical, but yours makes a better "viola" to my practiced ears..


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## paoling (Dec 11, 2015)

Beautiful Hannes.


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## Sid Francis (Dec 11, 2015)

"makes a better viola" is funny to my ears 
Very nice indeed, Hannes. When the first Viola is published that sounds like THIS , I will pay double the price


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## Hannes_F (Dec 11, 2015)

Vardaro said:


> Well done Hannes, I shall buy it when next month's pension comes in..
> The excess smoothness of the actual tone is compensated by the realistic vibrato and well-chosen transitions & attacks.



Thanks Vadaro. My samples work has been interpreted as life playing before by composers but in this case it is a live viola. The real thing. Smoothly played in order to fit the track and because we can  ... perhaps too smooth


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## reddognoyz (Dec 11, 2015)

Hannes_F said:


> Speaking as a forum member, not as a moderator:
> 
> OK, I have been asked about the opinions that I wrote into this thread, especially the saxophone story.
> 
> ...




Hannes That's really helpful! I see it's really easy to misuse the breath controller with this instrument, which i have definitly done. The portomento is much to easy to overuse and it is a give away, although it's great for comedy stuff. I have to study the attacks more on solo strings and see if I can emulate them better.

All of that said: For my work, my job, for getting paid, for getting done....I love the sm viola and all the SM instruments for their expression and playability. More so than their ability to emulate real instruments, though the do a great job of that in the right hands. Nothing I have is easier for me to improve a line until I like it.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 11, 2015)

Sid, paoling, muk, OneDove, FriFlo, Lawson, Lucor, reddognoyz,

thanks everybody. And, I hope I don't frustrate anybody. If I may say so, get out your SM viola and copy it until you do it better than me.

This is how (real) strings instruments are learned (too), by listen, watch and copy, feeling clumsy, listen again, watch again and copy again.

Nobody in the world can play a real viola "out of the box", so in analogy we can't expect to get a masterwork with a virtual instrument on the first day. While the technology comes to our (sample musicians) side of the bridge by 90% we still need to walk the other 10 %.


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## germancomponist (Dec 11, 2015)

Nice playing, Hannes!


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## Vardaro (Dec 12, 2015)

I have rather insulted Hannes by mistaking his real viola for a well-played VI!
My own viola has a smooth sound, but not such a smooth player..


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## Alatar (Dec 12, 2015)

Hannes_F said:


> To make this clearer and back up what I mean I recorded a quick example with a real viola that you might find useful for comparision. I have split it up so you can study it better the characteristics and perhaps you can make use of the actual bowing and the arc that we do on string instruments. First you hear PerryD's rendering, then my stuff:
> 
> http://www.strings-on-demand.com/demos/PerryDs_Viola.mp3



Interesting to hear the comparison.
And very nicely played!


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## Vlzmusic (Dec 12, 2015)

Great example Hannes, and perfectly illustrates why some of us approached the demos with grain of salt. Timbre differences, skillful vibrato, and natural mic proximity are evident.


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## Erik (Dec 12, 2015)

Thank you Hannes, very informative and beautifully played. A pleasure to listen at!


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## marclawsonmusic (Dec 12, 2015)

Thank you, Hannes, for the great example.


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## jononotbono (Dec 12, 2015)

So happy the Viola is on until the end of January. I've just bought the SM Brass and can see myself buying everything SM have. Performance and playability is so important (for me) for writing.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 12, 2015)

Thank you germancomponist, Vardaro, Alatar, Vlzmusic, Erik, marclawsonmusic for your comments.

This thread inspired a new idea yesterday, and in order not to derail everything here I opened a new thread (although owning the SM Viola would be an excellent starting point for that project too).
http://vi-control.net/community/threads/strings-style-master-class.50347


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## Vardaro (Dec 15, 2015)

Just a few thoughts about the "sax" sound.
- I love the sax!
- I have mistaken a real sax for a real violin for a few seconds, through a close door;
- an esteemed colleague said my viola reminded him of a saxophone: I have since changes to lighter, more flexible strings;
- some segments of some demos do sound very "saxy": a sort of buzzy sound in some attacks (rather than a rosiny sound), and a hollow formant sounding like a _classical_ sax.

So the actual timbre must be similar, but the player's moulding of envelopes, and the very specific vibrato, make all the difference.

I'll buy it when next month's pension arrives..


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## Vardaro (Dec 23, 2015)

After a close look at the manual, it may be possible to adjust the CC presets:
- vibrato to come in a split second after note-on;
- vibrato speed and intensity on the same CC, but with fairly narrow limits, and _independently _of the "expression" CC;
- avoid confusing expression values with percieved volume;
- very careful dosage of bow-noise, and bow-pressure levels and limits;
- for slurred legato, slightly tapered note-ons, even at high speed...
- It is often necessary to shift the resulting recording a fraction the the left: one of the give-aways is the lack of those almost subliminal noises _before_ the note really sounds.

Straight violin & viola tone is very similar to an accordion or a sax: we have to work on attacks and timbre variations, (not to mention vibrato!), to get a "string" sound. Then we may manage to forget the overly aligned, synchronised harmonic content of the basic SM tone.

Definitely worth a try!


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## zeng (Dec 24, 2015)

What about Embertone Fischer Viola? I know it is a virtual instrument instead of sample programming but if you just compare the sound and performance, what do you think about Embertone Viola vs Sample Modeling Viola?

http://www.embertone.com/instruments/fischerviola.php


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## Vardaro (Dec 24, 2015)

The Embertone Fisher Viola is sampled (1.38GB), but heavily scripted. Their violin takes 3.5GB, the cello 3GB, so I suppose the viola has more scripting to achieve similar legatos etc. The SM is entirely synthesised (a few MB!)

From the demos of both violas, I find that the Fischer has a far more realistic basic tone. I have not found the manual online, but I guess that it has slightly fewer parameters than the PM viola:(e.g. choice of left hand position, rosin noise, bow speed).

In the 4th octave, the Fischer viola stops at G, while the SM viola stops at Bb; (on my real viola, I often play to A, or even C for fun)

In both violas, I have similar reserves about fast slurred legato (several notes in one bow-stroke) or even fast bowed legato (called "detaché" by string players) particularly on the higher notes.


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## zeng (Dec 24, 2015)

Over these Spitfire Audio joined to the game with Sacconi Strings Vol 1 (1st Violin) which is solo I guess.

So there are 3 significant libraries at the moment; SM's Viola (which is full synhtetic), Embertone's Viola (also Violin) and SA'a Violin...Which one should I buy?? 

http://www.spitfireaudio.com/shop/a-z/sacconi-strings-vol-1/


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## zolhof (Dec 24, 2015)

cenk said:


> So there are 3 significant libraries at the moment; SM's Viola (which is full synhtetic), Embertone's Viola (also Violin) and SA'a Violin...Which one should I buy??



This one: http://vi-control.net/community/thr...e-series-announcement-pre-order-opened.50114/

Pre-order price still available!


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## zeng (Dec 24, 2015)

And this offer makes everything more confusing!  There are 5 wonderful solo violin (viola) libraries?!

1) Embertone Fisher Viola
2) Sample Modeling Viola
3) Spitfire Audio Sacconi Strings Vol 1 (1st Violin)
4) Orchestra Tools Nocturne Violin
5) VirHarmonic Bohemian Violin

Which one would you prefer? And why?


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## TintoL (Dec 24, 2015)

Cenk thanks for asking that question. I am also trying to improve my solo strings and I have doubts about what is available. I own vsl solo strings full package and I think that it has a gazillion load of articulations BUT, the sound is very hard to get right and I got tired of it.

Spitfire solo strings sounds great but doesn't seems complete enough. I don't like the sound of OT nocturne fast lines (it will be great to hear other opinions on this). The new bohemian violin seems great but I don't know how much baked "not flexible sound " is on it. Spitfire sacconi seems to me that there is not enough info yet to judge. It will be great to see more demos of the sacconi strings.

For the sameple modeling viola, I think I will end up fighting with the sound the same way I do with my vsl solo strings. It is probably a library for a master audio mixer.

The bohemian violin thread is moving people more and more and people is getting exited about it. It will be great to see how it compares to sacconi strings because my template is a lot based on spitfire stuff.

I hope someone can share more on his\her experience with these.


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## zeng (Dec 24, 2015)

Tintol, thanks for your detailed explanations about your thoughts on libraries. I think Embertone and Virharmonic in the same league for sound and programming features. I also have VSL, and I love its dry recorded sound.

Like you I also want to write solo string without working on programming (especially for my commercial works based on tight deadlines!). VSL loses here because of its matrix system. Embertone is giving fast results but I really am getting excited on Bohemian Violin. Saccioni sounds similar to VSL and it sounds a little bit weak to me but there is only one demo. And why is Nocturne Violins priced so high?? questions...questions...


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## TintoL (Dec 25, 2015)

Cenk, we have very similar thoughts regarding these libraries. This decision is kind of hard, mostly because of the lack of full (completed packages). And thus we are deciding on future assumptions.

I hesitated with bohemian violin because is not completed. And I am afraid I loose the boat on that one already.
Sacconi strings is almost there, but I agree with you that it sounds a bit weak. Nevertheless it has the mics and stage backed in and that is to me the pluss. I hope demos are been created for sacconi right now. I find that those walkthrough playing in a polyphonic manner with more than one finger are missleding. I rather hear a full performance with a quartet to judge better.
I agree that nocturne violin is priced too high. 

A lot of stuff is happening now in terms of development, but, I still think that the "quartet" realistic sound is still the holy grail and no current library is at the level of the full string arrangement libraries because of the exposure of detail.


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## LHall (Dec 26, 2015)

I have the SM Viola, as well as the old Garritan Stradivarius and Gofriller Cello. Having been spoiled by the total playability of the SM instruments - being able to swell from ppp to fff and back as I wish and not being restricted to prerecorded swells, etc - I can't imagine being the least bit interested in any instrument that doesn't provide me with the expression, the legato, the definable vibrato of these instruments. Even if there is a slight compromise in tone - or as I believe a requirement to actually work at the sound just a bit. I've used these instruments in many recordings and have had experienced professional ears totally convinced. 

Do any of the other instruments mentioned here have these playable characteristics? I checked out about half of the Bohemian Violin video, but didn't see/hear any convincing playable legato. Did I stop too soon? The bow changes did sound nice, but I didn't get the impression I had much dynamic control. Someone let me know if I'm wrong about that.


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## reddognoyz (Dec 26, 2015)

anxiously awaiting the sm cello and violin!


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## coprhead6 (Dec 26, 2015)

Pshh, who needs a VST viola! You guys should just hire me to play on your tracks :D

But this does sound good...


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## rayinstirling (Dec 27, 2015)

From 2006


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## jononotbono (Jan 19, 2016)

I just pulled the trigger and bought SM Viola. Loving it so far but it's early days and need to set it up with my Roli Seaboard Rise. I am expecting greatness haha. I also have the Embertone Fischer Viola so I shall compare the two soon!


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## Vardaro (Jan 23, 2016)

I too am busy comparing those two, plus Kirk Hunters' Concert Strings 3 violas, (plus my own real viola!)


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## jononotbono (Jan 23, 2016)

Ooooh you're a Violist? Could you possibly record a String line and then try and create it it with either the Embertone or SM Viola? Would love to hear it! Good to know you're a real player!


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## Ah_dziz (Feb 16, 2016)

I read through this thread the other day, and between that and some of the demos I heard I was a bit worried about this release. After considering the price and my overall love of Samplemodeling's output to date, I went ahead and grabbed it. With little tweaking I was able to get a pretty amazing sound and that was just with my aka I make mini on my internet CPU. The note attacks can get a bit weird sounding, but if you are used to shaping the controllers of the Samplemodeling instruments it can sound amazingly smooth. Then all that is left is the regular mixing nonsense one needs to make an anechoic instrument sound like it's in a place. I'll be using this to add life and variety to my other string libraries by layering much like I have with the SM brass and woods. It also seems like it will be great for pop arrangements that need strings or times when producers want you to crap out a realistic disco, soul, or country track over night.

PS I am very aware of the sound of a viola. I've spent my life listening to first my brother, then two of my daughters practice at great length. It doesn't sound like a one of a kind, priceless, viola recorded through top of the line equipment in an amazing room when you mash a couple of keys down, but it definitely sounds like a viola.
JJ


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## Ah_dziz (Feb 16, 2016)

I would also like to add that I very much enjoy being able to set the bow mode to bipolar and the pressure slider to scratchy and make terrible noises that sound like a five year old destroying a bow. I'm always amazed at how difficult it is when a producer tells me to make an extremely badly played part for an instrument. Between the scratchy noises and the retuning of individual notes I definitely have terrible string playing covered.


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## pderbidge (Feb 18, 2016)

More and more I am leaning towards this type of VI. I'm surprised that there aren't more dev's going this route but I can imagine the ROI for new devs might not be there since it is easier to sell the ultimate sounding samples with the ultimate sounding tone that plays the part for you in one pass - which is cool in its own right- than to try and compete with SampleModeling who already does a good job at this modelling stuff. I just would love to get closer to that ultimate feeling and expression that I believe modeling will afford us in the future and it just makes me anxious to see more modeling done with these instruments. I understand wanting ease of use, but doesn't learning your instruments in and out also help one become more versed in how to use the product, thus making it easier to use? I'm not afraid of a learning curve but I also don't have stringent deadlines like many here do. Hoping to see a Cello from SM because that is what I've been holding out for.


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## renegade (Feb 19, 2016)

pderbidge said:


> More and more I am leaning towards this type of VI.



Me too...I know it's very very hard, probably impossible to get them all the way to the "real thing" (samples) recorded in real space. But (after hours of tweaking - which is also fun IMO!) I can get them to a level of realism where I no longer feel that the sound ruins my inspiration. The thing that just overshadows everything is the way you can play these instruments. Slow, fast, trills, vibrato, long, short etc. in one single patch, in one single take (...if you're good).


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## brunodegazio (Feb 25, 2016)

At a concert here in Toronto recently I heard the Vocalise by Messiaen performed by Theremin and piano. With it's lyrical yet eerie mood it captured my attention and seemed an ideal piece to try out the new Sample Modeling Viola:



I've taken some liberties with the printed music in order to try out some of the various timbres the Sample Modeling instrument provides, specifically, harmonics, sordino and sul tasto. The viola part was played with an EWI-5000.


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## pderbidge (Feb 25, 2016)

brunodegazio said:


> At a concert here in Toronto recently I heard the Vocalise by Messiaen performed by Theremin and piano. With it's lyrical yet eerie mood it captured my attention and seemed an ideal piece to try out the new Sample Modeling Viola:
> 
> 
> 
> I've taken some liberties with the printed music in order to try out some of the various timbres the Sample Modeling instrument provides, specifically, harmonics, sordino and sul tasto. The viola part was played with an EWI-5000.



Very nice! It's great to see people sharing their talent with these VI's. Gives us all a better understanding of what can be achieved.


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## Hannes_F (Feb 26, 2016)

brunodegazio said:


> The viola part was played with an EWI-5000.


 Beautiful, Bruno!


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## brentm (Feb 27, 2016)

thesteelydane said:


> Ahem....




At first glance (and second) I thought it said Kim Kardashian...lost my footing in the universe for a minute.


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## PerryD (Feb 27, 2016)

Ah_dziz said:


> I would also like to add that I very much enjoy being able to set the bow mode to bipolar and the pressure slider to scratchy and make terrible noises that sound like a five year old destroying a bow. I'm always amazed at how difficult it is when a producer tells me to make an extremely badly played part for an instrument. Between the scratchy noises and the retuning of individual notes I definitely have terrible string playing covered.


 Adding a _bit_ of edginess/scratch to the bow sound yields some other interesting results. There is a short descending chromatic part in this that I wanted to stick out a bit. I had some fun with it, anyway.


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## RiffWraith (Feb 27, 2016)

brentm said:


> At first glance (and second) I thought it said Kim Kardashian...lost my footing in the universe for a minute.



LOL


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## robgb (Jul 3, 2016)

I think the viola sounds great. Just bought it today and have been playing with it. Probably the most amazing solo string instrument I've used in terms of playability and flexibility. I love being able to adjust the bow pressure with a CC to get that scratchy sound. Very realistic. This thing seems to have endless possibilities.


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## StefanoLucato (Aug 3, 2016)

Hi All !
Released The Viola v1.1.2
- Improved sound generation
- New features and several fix

Stefano Lucato
SWAM team


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## robgb (Aug 3, 2016)

StefanoLucato said:


> Hi All !
> Released The Viola v1.1.2
> - Improved sound generation
> - New features and several fix
> ...



How do we get the update?


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## ZeeCount (Aug 4, 2016)

https://swamengine.com/swam/downloads.php


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## robgb (Aug 4, 2016)

Wow. I loved it before, but the sound of the instrument is even better now. Extremely authentic sounding to my ears.


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## jononotbono (Aug 4, 2016)

Thanks. Will download it and try it out!


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## tack (Aug 4, 2016)

Any audio/video demos showing the sonic differences would be very welcome!


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## robgb (Aug 4, 2016)

Here's a link to quick and dirty test on Soundcloud:


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## John57 (Aug 4, 2016)

A much brighter sound than previous.


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## robgb (Aug 4, 2016)

John57 said:


> A much brighter sound than previous.


I upped the brightness a bit because it's what I prefer. Brightness controls are available in the GUI. What I noticed overall is that it sounds less "boxy."


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## pmcrockett (Aug 4, 2016)

robgb said:


> What I noticed overall is that it sounds less "boxy."


Haven't gotten a change to test the update myself yet, but this is what I'm hearing in your demo of it, too. I'm pretty excited about this.


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## Joe_D (Aug 4, 2016)

Having played with both of them for a while this evening, I think that the tone of both the viola and the cello are significantly improved. 

Thank you for the update, SM/SWAM!


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## PerryD (Aug 5, 2016)

I had a quick test as well. Nice update!


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## tack (Aug 5, 2016)

PerryD said:


> I had a quick test as well. Nice update!


Love the expressiveness.


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## PerryD (Aug 5, 2016)

tack said:


> Love the expressiveness.


And once again, it was done in real time.


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## robgb (Aug 6, 2016)

I'd love to hear the cello update solo now. I'm on the fence about buying (despite the amazing control), because the Blakus cello I use sounds so damn good.


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## DocMidi657 (Aug 6, 2016)

robgb said:


> I'd love to hear the cello update solo now. I'm on the fence about buying (despite the amazing control), because the Blakus cello I use sounds so damn good.


Hi Rob, Did they update the cello as well?... I thought it was just the viola?


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## John57 (Aug 6, 2016)

I understand that is was mostly for the viola and to have the viola and the cello to have similar feature set. I could post the change log. 

Some will say that the viola is less "boxy" but I would called the new version less "woody" sounding. After-all, the viola does have a wood box like case that produces sound in addition to the strings. The important thing is to use what would you be happy with.

I just brought the LeapMotion since it has more options for MIDI control and cheaper than a breath controller.


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## tack (Aug 6, 2016)

John57 said:


> I just brought the LeapMotion since it has more options for MIDI control and cheaper than a breath controller.


I'd be curious to know how you get on with it. Although very cool in concept, I personally found it was much too temperamental.


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## John57 (Aug 6, 2016)

With my new LeapMotion with the latest firmware seems to have good consistency at this point. I will have more to say later after I send time with it. Currently using the GECO1.3.0 software.


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## PerryD (Aug 6, 2016)

robgb said:


> I'd love to hear the cello update solo now. I'm on the fence about buying (despite the amazing control), because the Blakus cello I use sounds so damn good.


 Ok. A quick run through with the Cello version 1.1.2


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## robgb (Aug 8, 2016)

PerryD said:


> Ok. A quick run through with the Cello version 1.1.2



Sounds amazing! Man, I hear people dissing these modeling based instruments, but they sound fantastic to me and the playability is amazing.


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## Neifion (Aug 8, 2016)

These sound great. Really interested to see how they pull off the violin.


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## EuropaWill (Aug 26, 2016)

pmcrockett said:


> My impression is that the note attacks are a bit off, which has been my impression for all of the demos I've heard so far. In this particular case, the attacks seem too similar for too long within any given section, and there a lot of instances where I'd expect to hear a little bite on the attack but get repeated mushy attacks instead.
> 
> Not having used the viola yet, I can only speculate as to how to resolve this. My guess is that getting attacks to work properly is going to involve having substantial expression spikes that quickly fall back to the actual desired expression level at the starts of some notes, or possibly setting up the bowing parameters so that more force/bite/whatever is applied when you spike the expression controller like this. It's one of those things that will be a massive timesink to edit by hand and will probably give best results if it can be scripted as part of a performance interface.


This was also my impression when listening to the Viola samples. That they need to somehow layer note heads of various shorts onto the legato performances to get more realistic bowing sounds during these phrases. I also felt like it sounded midway between a bowed instrument and a blown instrument. This keeps coming back with all the samples i'm hearing. It doesn't sound angular like a bowed instrument often sounds, it sounds too connected like a reed instrument where the diaphram is controlling the expression extremely predictably. I don't think I'm ever hearing any fingered sounds, perhaps they aren't modeling the finger effects on the tone of the strings when pressing down or releasing, especially when the instrument is going from one "string" to another during a phrase.

I really want to like this and the cello, but keep feeling like they released it before refining it so it has more elements modeled.


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## robgb (Aug 26, 2016)

EuropaWill said:


> I really want to like this and the cello, but keep feeling like they released it before refining it so it has more elements modeled.



Please don't judge them by any demo I've posted. I'm still getting to know the instruments. Try playing them and listening on your own monitors. I suspect you'll change your opinion. Both the viola and cello are wonderful, flexible and immensely playable instruments that sound particularly great after the recent updates.

As for the bowing sounds, those are adjustable AS YOU PLAY. They are truly the most realistic solo string instrument samples I've ever used.


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## EuropaWill (Aug 26, 2016)

I'd like to try playing them. Are you suggesting they offer a free trial?


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## Vardaro (Jan 4, 2017)

Just got Chris Hein's viola, then the violin, cellos and bass. Dry, but a "thicker" sound than Embertone, full four+ octave ranges, a mass of recorded attacks, transitions and velocity layers, and a vso vibrato. Not better than Embertone, but different. Compared with SM, they both have the real "grain" of recorded samples. Considering the amazing SM brass uses a limited number of samples as its base sound, its a pity the didn't do the same for their strings. Real strings are a mess of slightly out-of-tune hamonics, attacks lasting up to 250ms, and pitch-bending under bow-pressure: rather difficult to synthesize!
I prefer the new SM viola tone, and I shall save up for the violin & 'cello : modeling is certainly the way to go.


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## lelepar (Jan 6, 2017)

Vardaro said:


> Considering the amazing SM brass uses a limited number of samples as its base sound, its a pity the didn't do the same for their strings. Real strings are a mess of slightly out-of-tune hamonics, attacks lasting up to 250ms, and pitch-bending under bow-pressure: rather difficult to synthesize!
> I prefer the new SM viola tone, and I shall save up for the violin & 'cello : modeling is certainly the way to go.



Brass are made by Samplemodeling, while Woodwinds and Bowed Strings are made by the SWAM team (with some contribution of SM). They use different approaches.
Compared to Brass and Woodwinds, Bowed Strings have several expressive vectors to be combined. To use the same technology used in the SM Brass or in the SWAM Woodwinds we should have sampled the whole instrument range, with the combination of different dynamics multiplied by different entities of Bow Pressure, Bow Position and other articulations. This lead to a library-oriented instrument that we would avoid.
We have opted for the Physical Modeling approach because it has more degrees of freedom and let us model the whole instrument as an organic entity, even though it is much more complex to fine-tune and to make it sound as the real thing. Also, we believe that it is the way to go: we want to invest in that direction.

If someone of you is around Stanford on January 26th, we are going to clarify many aspects of our technology and methodology in a dedicated Seminar:
https://ccrma.stanford.edu/events/digital-modeling-of-expressive-acoustic-instruments 

Also, Stefano Lucato and I will be at the NAMM Show from January 19th to 22nd. We don't have a booth, but if someone wants to meet us, just write at [email protected] and we can organize a short meeting.

BTW: we are nearly ready to release an update of all three Bowed Strings released so far. Stay tuned.

Best,
Emanuele Parravicini
_SWAM Team_


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## brunodegazio (Jan 6, 2017)

Would love to attend the Stanford Seminar but not possible unfortunately. Would it be possible for you to post details of the seminar content to this thread, or or the SWAM/SM website afterwards? 

thanks
Bruno Degazio



lelepar said:


> If someone of you is around Stanford on January 26th, we are going to clarify many aspects of our technology and methodology in a dedicated Seminar:
> https://ccrma.stanford.edu/events/digital-modeling-of-expressive-acoustic-instruments
> _SWAM Team_


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## Lotias (Jan 6, 2017)

lelepar said:


> Brass are made by Samplemodeling, while Woodwinds and Bowed Strings are made by the SWAM team (with some contribution of SM). They use different approaches.
> Compared to Brass and Woodwinds, Bowed Strings have several expressive vectors to be combined. To use the same technology used in the SM Brass or in the SWAM Woodwinds we should have sampled the whole instrument range, with the combination of different dynamics multiplied by different entities of Bow Pressure, Bow Position and other articulations. This lead to a library-oriented instrument that we would avoid.
> We have opted for the Physical Modeling approach because it has more degrees of freedom and let us model the whole instrument as an organic entity, even though it is much more complex to fine-tune and to make it sound as the real thing. Also, we believe that it is the way to go: we want to invest in that direction.
> 
> ...


Any word on what the update will do?


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## lelepar (Jan 7, 2017)

brunodegazio said:


> Would love to attend the Stanford Seminar but not possible unfortunately. Would it be possible for you to post details of the seminar content to this thread, or or the SWAM/SM website afterwards?
> 
> thanks
> Bruno Degazio



By policy we cannot share any content of our seminars, sorry.



Lotias said:


> Any word on what the update will do?



Viola and Cello will be aligned with the Violin engine, plus several fixes, a further improvement on the sound generation and new "instruments" added.


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## robgb (Jan 7, 2017)

Can't wait for the updates.


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## Erik (Jan 7, 2017)

Me too


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## Peter Siedlaczek (Jan 8, 2017)

Vardaro said:


> Considering the amazing SM brass uses a limited number of samples as its base sound, its a pity the didn't do the same for their strings.



We can distinguish between three basic approaches to virtual instruments. (The description below is written also for those who are new on the field of virtual instruments):

- Traditional sample-libraries. The "instruments" are in essence sophisticated players reproducing pre-recorded samples, articulations, or small sound-bits like transitions etc. Complex scripts are used to facilitate the connection between the pre-recorded elements. What comes out of the instrument is basically what has been recorded, with limited possibilities of shaping the final sound. Advantages: excellent timbre if the library has been created using high quality instruments, advanced recording techniques and professional musicians. Disadvantages: even gigabytes of samples do not allow to play any possible articulation. Free phrasing is also limited due to the limits of the sound shaping itself. Some artifacts due to imperfect connection between the sonic elements and across the dynamics are nearly unavoidable.

- Physical Modeling. Complex mathematical equations are used to emulate the behavior of a real instrument in any detail. No samples are involved. The overall quality of this approach is determined by the adequacy of the mathematical model itself (how well it corresponds to the physics of the real instrument), by the quality of the algorithms reproducing the natural imperfections of the human player, and by the proper interaction between the musician and the virtual instrument. Physical Modeling is known for more than 30 years. Still, whereas the flexibility and the response to the musician´s interaction are very good, the sound quality does not come up to the mark. Moreover, physical modeling is very CPU intensive.

- "Sample Modeling". Our own approach combines the advantages of sampling (pristine sound quality) with some features of the physical modeling (real time playability and soundshaping of virtually any articulation). It exploits proprietary technologies yielding full control of the instrument and allowing free phrasing/articulation in real time. 

We believe that the Samplemodeling approach is still the best compromise so far. This seems to be confirmed by the appreciation of the users of our Kontakt-based brass. We temporarily froze our projects of developing new instruments based on our technologies to allow the SWAM Team to fully exploit the physical modeling approach to solo strings. Our active contribution in developing SWAM-based instruments is the best proof that we believed that the project was worth the effort. Even though some limitations of physical modeling are not yet overcome, Stefano & Lele are to be commended for renovating the research on physical modeling and, most importantly, for creating usable instruments based on this principle. 

Peter & Giorgio

Samplemodeling


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## Vardaro (Jan 9, 2017)

Thank you, Peter, for this extensive reply. Staying with physical modeling, I wonder if a larger dose of Bow Noise is sufficient for a more realistic tone (I haven't tried it yet..).Could not some of the scripted growl, buzz and high frequency flutter from the French Horn be applied the overly-pure string sounds?

I find the SM violin tone more convincing than the viola or cello tone. Perhaps a real violin with its smaller body responds more quickly than the lower intruments, and may have fewer distorted overtones and random pitch-bends?


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## Peter Siedlaczek (Jan 10, 2017)

Vardaro said:


> Could not some of the scripted growl, buzz and high frequency flutter from the French Horn be applied the overly-pure string sounds?



Since the technology of physically modeled instruments is completely different from ours, some simple end effective solutions working well with our instruments cannot be applied to SWAM instruments. In any case please address questions like these to the SWAM Team.

Thank you for posting.

Peter & Giorgio


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## Vardaro (Jan 22, 2017)

Just got the v.1.2.0. viola update: a full 4 ocatves, and a "close-miked" timbre.


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## Lotias (Jan 22, 2017)

Vardaro said:


> Just got the v.1.2.0. viola update: a full 4 ocatves, and a "close-miked" timbre.


Really? I thought it was updated to 1.2.1 a while ago.


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## Vardaro (Jan 23, 2017)

Lotias said:


> Really? I thought it was updated to 1.2.1 a while ago.


Sorry, v.1.2.1! Quite recent, though: most of the above comments have welcomed the 1.1.2.
I have done LTAS (in Audacity) on a 4-octave chromatic scale on various VI's. The v.1.1.2. filled the "tubby" hollow from 1 to 1.5kHz, then v.1.2.1 adds a peak at 2kHz; both updates increase the higher frequencies. above 4kHz.

I also appreciate the 4 ocatave range, as I find it hard to do on my wide-bodied viola!


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## Vardaro (Apr 7, 2017)

One problem is that we violists don't agree as how a viola should sound; velvety or husky, brassy C & A strings, silky or strident, warm or nasal? My two violas have 15-3/4 inch bodies, but one is narrow with a "mezzo" quality, while the other is wide bodied with a more powerful plummy "contralto" tone. One for Mozart, the other for Brahms?

Maybe there isn't enough cello-like "sluggishness" in the SM viola's attacks,or insufficient inharmonicity or pitchbend in the harmonics. In a real viola, we are expecting a cello-ish quality from an instrument not much bigger than a violin.


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