# Changes to Commercial Announcements



## Mike Greene (Dec 21, 2017)

As you may know, there’s been a long-standing rule on the forum that you're supposed to buy advertising if you’re going to post Commercial Announcements. A number of developers have been ignoring this rule. It’s annoying (especially when it’s _me_ who’s not getting paid!  ) but I don’t want to play policeman on this. It’s not fun. Still, the rule is there and it’s not fair that some people are paying in good faith and others are not.

The obvious solution is to start deleting all the Commercial Announcements posts from non-advertisers. After all, them’s the rules, and why should some companies benefit from what other companies (and me!) pay for? But … I'm reminded of the Northern Sounds debacle years ago, and I definitely don’t want to go down that road.

More importantly, deleting announcements from non-advertisers would hurt the forum, since most people here _want_ to know when EastWest or CineSamples or 8dio has a new release, whether they advertise or not. Not to sound like a martyr, but I bought the forum to make sure it stayed a cool place, not to get rich. So I can't delete half (yes, half!) the Commercial Announcements.

In their defense, I suspect that since _“support the forum”_ now means, _“put money into Mike’s pocket,”_ there’s less of a charity situation than there used to be. (Maybe I should lose the Corvette in the avatar?) I must admit, I’d probably feel the same way. I think the new reality of VI-Control is that companies are going to buy ads only if it makes business sense, rather than for altruistic reasons. So with all that, I’ve decided:

*Big change #1* - There will no longer be a requirement to buy ads before posting Commercial Announcements. Whether you buy ads or not, you can now post Commercial Announcements to your heart’s content.

Now, I know what you’re thinking: _“But Mike! How are you going to buy more Corvettes if everybody just posts free Commercial Announcements and stops advertising?” *_

By golly, you’re right! Even though VIC ads are cheaper by far than any of the other music forums, plus they deliver to a more focused (and bigger spending!) audience than anywhere else, which makes them an incredible value that any forward-thinking company will obviously want to take advantage of, there are still going to be those companies who decide they just want to post free announcements instead. Plus they get even more free publicity when I mention them in the weekly newsletter. (Half the companies I mention there don’t advertise.) Well, that brings us to:

*Big change #2* - We now have a second Commercial Announcements “Tier 2” section, which is for non-advertisers. This new section works like the main Commercial Announcements section. It will be visible to members and will appear in their Latest Posts feed, just like normal. If you're a member here, you probably won’t notice a difference. You'll see announcements from both advertisers and non-advertisers, just like before.

However, guests (non-members) will _not_ see this section, and for guests (non-members), these "Tier 2" posts do _not_ appear in the Latest Posts feed.

Of course, the main "Original Recipe" Commercial Announcements section will be seen by both members _and_ guests.

I think this will be pretty unnoticeable to most members. All commercial announcements, paid or not, will still show up, including in the Latest Posts feed. You won’t see a difference there. (Unless you’re not a member. Why the heck would anyone not be a member???)

If you’re a company, this will mean fewer eyeballs on your announcements, since guests comprise about 60% of the forum visits.

_* For the record, this forum makes far less money than what you might think, and less than half of what was estimated in the drama thread back in June. Ain’t nobody gonna buy collector cars with the income from it. Heck, it will be years before I even recoup what I paid for it._


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## chillbot (Dec 21, 2017)

As a paying advertiser, I totally support this.


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## pmcrockett (Dec 21, 2017)

Chillbot says hello to members and guests alike.


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## synthpunk (Dec 21, 2017)

Cool, we can see who the cheapskates are now! 

Amazing that N is tier 1, they must be selling a ton!


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## Saxer (Dec 21, 2017)

All makes sense.

If needed send me a pm and I draw a KIA for your avatar.


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## LamaRose (Dec 21, 2017)

Love this... but I may change my mind if I ever produce a library, lol!

Instead of Tier 1 & 2, I might suggest Gold & Silver... a bit more demeaning, imho. Or you could go B's to the walls, and hit 'em with Gold & Pot metal sections... this really gets the message across.


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## Rudankort (Dec 22, 2017)

Mike Greene said:


> I think this will be pretty unnoticeable to most members. All commercial announcements, paid or not, will still show up, including in the Latest Posts feed. You won’t see a difference there.



Not that I'm going to complain or anything, but I'm not using Latest posts, so for me it means one additional forum to monitor.


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## Mike Greene (Dec 22, 2017)

Rudankort said:


> Not that I'm going to complain or anything, but I'm not using Latest posts, so for me it means one additional forum to monitor.


Admittedly, that is a downside. In fact, it's now _two_ additional forums, because I did the same thing for the Deals, Deals, Deals forum.

If it's any consolation, though, unless you log in every day, you'd need to scan more than one page to see all the announcements anyway. In other words, the number of page clicks shouldn't be much higher.

Plus, in theory, as some of the larger companies realize _"Golly, maybe it's worth $39/month to post in the main section,"_ then we should get to a point where the main CA section is the more major announcements, while Tier 2 is the soundpacks and stuff.


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## Harzmusic (Dec 22, 2017)

Understandable change from your side.

Quick question: 
Does the product itself need to be advertised, or does it "suffice" if the company making the announcement has advertisement running? For example if a company has advertising running for a big flagship product, but also releases a couple of smaller products, would that mean only the flagship product would be allowed in Tier 1?


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## synthpunk (Dec 22, 2017)

When is Tier 3/4 coming ? I remember reading we had enough sub forums, but what do I know.



Mike Greene said:


> Admittedly, that is a downside. In fact, it's now _two_ additional forums, because I did the same thing for the Deals, Deals, Deals forum.
> 
> If it's any consolation, though, unless you log in every day, you'd need to scan more than one page to see all the announcements anyway. In other words, the number of page clicks shouldn't be much higher.
> 
> Plus, in theory, as some of the larger companies realize _"Golly, maybe it's worth $39/month to post in the main section,"_ then we should get to a point where the main CA section is the more major announcements, while Tier 2 is the soundpacks and stuff.




I might check it once a day, but not religiously as some seem to.


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## bbunker (Dec 22, 2017)

Not a response to the changes per se, but I've had a lingering thought about commercial announcements for a little while, and this seems as good a time as any to bring it up.

Personally, I think the majority of posts that violate the spirit of the 'Commercial Announcement Free Zone' are accidental. It isn't a huge effort to check by scrolling to the top of the page to see which section the thread is in, but you have to remember TO check, if that makes sense. I myself would find handy a little reminder above the window to type the post in, something to the effect of "Remember: this post is in the commercial announcement...blah blah." Or, color coding on the thread so there's a kind of warning as you're getting into the thread.

Couldn't hurt, right?


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## synthpunk (Dec 22, 2017)

I think it is a site wide issue, there are some head scratches. I come to the point where I do not even mention/report most that should be moved. If your that ignorant or lazy you should live with it 



bbunker said:


> Not a response to the changes per se, but I've had a lingering thought about commercial announcements for a little while, and this seems as good a time as any to bring it up.
> 
> Personally, I think the majority of posts that violate the spirit of the 'Commercial Announcement Free Zone' are accidental. It isn't a huge effort to check by scrolling to the top of the page to see which section the thread is in, but you have to remember TO check, if that makes sense. I myself would find handy a little reminder above the window to type the post in, something to the effect of "Remember: this post is in the commercial announcement...blah blah." Or, color coding on the thread so there's a kind of warning as you're getting into the thread.
> 
> Couldn't hurt, right?


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## fiestared (Dec 22, 2017)

To be fair, you should ask all the "Lobying Guys" to clearly announce they are... Because I'm really tired of some people here that spend their time trying to convince us that the lib X or Y is the best and not honestly telling us they have a deal... I have a recent example with a new big lib of Strings, every 2 posts this guy was posting, answering etc... Mike you prove us again, you're are the best thing that could arrive to our/my FAVORITE Forum... Thanks and Merry Christmas.


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## synthpunk (Dec 22, 2017)

You can usually spot them, like a bad suit on a used car salesman, but I agree. The shameful thing is if you look at there post history its nothing but schilling and no other positive input to the community.

Use the ignore feature it works.



fiestared said:


> To be fair, you should ask all the "Lobying Guys" to clearly announce they are... Because I'm really tired of some people here that spend their time trying to convince us that the lib X or Y is the best and not honestly telling us they have a deal... I have a recent example with a new big lib of Strings, every 2 posts this guy was posting, answering etc... Mike you prove us again, you're are the best thing that could arrive to our/my FAVORITE Forum... Thanks and Merry Christmas.


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## Mike Greene (Dec 22, 2017)

Polkasound said:


> I could have sworn I remember recently reading an official post where the rule was one commercial announcement every six months if you're not a paying advertiser. Was that rule deprecated? I'd usually announce two sales during the year, and I used to make a small donation (roughly 10% of the sales it generated) in appreciation for the service when that option was available.


You would have sworn correctly. 

That was becoming a chore, because a number of companies were gaming it in various ways, plus getting into tedious discussions. It was becoming a major PIA because I was spending more time on it than it's worth. I support the philosophy of letting smaller companies post, but you'd be amazed at how many developers with catalogs bigger than mine still consider themselves "small companies." (Obviously that isn't directed at you.)

So by ending that, and having very cut and dried rules, I'm hoping to have less work. Honestly, that's my main goal right now. Less work. Most aspects of running the forum have been fun, but dealing with advertiser related issues ... that's probably 8 to 10 hours a week. So I'm making this, as well as some other changes.

There are a couple exceptions, like N, which I find amusing. And in your case, I like polka, so what the heck.


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## Paul Grymaud (Dec 22, 2017)

*You got a problem with the new rules ?*





no sir...


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## Mike Greene (Dec 22, 2017)

Harzmusic said:


> Understandable change from your side.
> 
> Quick question:
> Does the product itself need to be advertised, or does it "suffice" if the company making the announcement has advertisement running? For example if a company has advertising running for a big flagship product, but also releases a couple of smaller products, would that mean only the flagship product would be allowed in Tier 1?


Nah, I'm not _that_ harsh.  If you're advertising, all your stuff would be allowed in Tier 1, whether it's the subject of an ad or not.


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## Mike Greene (Dec 22, 2017)

bbunker said:


> Not a response to the changes per se, but I've had a lingering thought about commercial announcements for a little while, and this seems as good a time as any to bring it up.
> 
> Personally, I think the majority of posts that violate the spirit of the 'Commercial Announcement Free Zone' are accidental. It isn't a huge effort to check by scrolling to the top of the page to see which section the thread is in, but you have to remember TO check, if that makes sense. I myself would find handy a little reminder above the window to type the post in, something to the effect of "Remember: this post is in the commercial announcement...blah blah." Or, color coding on the thread so there's a kind of warning as you're getting into the thread.
> 
> Couldn't hurt, right?


I'm not sure of that's possible. I kinda think not.

Either way, though, I don't think there's been much problem. Maybe I'm wrong, but we get very few reports of problem posters in CA threads.


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## Mike Greene (Dec 22, 2017)

fiestared said:


> To be fair, you should ask all the "Lobying Guys" to clearly announce they are... Because I'm really tired of some people here that spend their time trying to convince us that the lib X or Y is the best and not honestly telling us they have a deal... I have a recent example with a new big lib of Strings, every 2 posts this guy was posting, answering etc... Mike you prove us again, you're are the best thing that could arrive to our/my FAVORITE Forum... Thanks and Merry Christmas.


I agree with you on this, but I'm not sure yet how to handle it. Rules would be really tough to write, because some "affiliates" are actually helpful with their posts, so I don't want to throw out any babies with the bathwater. Also, the forum software is not capable of a lot of _"This guy is an affiliate!"_ flagging or anything.

Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely with you on this, and I've been trying to figure out how to handle it. It's a challenge, though.


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## mc_deli (Dec 22, 2017)

Maybe you could add something to the names of the two deals forums because I'll wager it be confusin for the great unwashed


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## khollister (Dec 22, 2017)

And so where are we suppose to post deals we discover when we aren’t the publisher? I appreciate what you are trying to do but this is making the forum a bit less friendly to the users along with rewarding the advertisers IMHO.


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## Kony (Dec 22, 2017)

Mike Greene said:


> there’s been a long-standing rule on the forum that you're supposed to buy advertising if you’re going to post Commercial Announcements


What about two tiers of membership, a free one for artists and a paying subscription model for developers (with a tier structure for different developers depending on their size)? That way they can post commercial ads as much as they want having paid for the privilege - and it could also be indicated in their avatar/signature that they are a developer in the interests of transparency?


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## Nils Neumann (Dec 22, 2017)

CA Tier1, CA Tier2 and Deals Deals Deals?
It is getting a little bit confusing...

Edit: I just realized there is a Deals Tier 2 too, that is really to much for my taste...


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## Mucusman (Dec 22, 2017)

Mike Greene said:


> If you're a member here, you probably won’t notice a difference.



Well, I guess if I was just viewing posts by looking at the Latest Posts sidebar, yes, there'd be no difference. On my phone, I have had two Firefox tabs open at all times for the Commercial Announcements and Deals Deals Deals (and other tabs for other topics of interest). Now, if I want to see the same content, I get to check _four _tabs. That's a noticable difference. 

I'm not whining, and I think I understand the challenge before you, Mike. I just think it's a bigger change for members than you think.


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## Kony (Dec 22, 2017)

Using the two tier membership idea I posted above, you wouldn't need the commercial sub-forums....


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## mc_deli (Dec 22, 2017)

@Mike Greene There must be a better solution for you. If I had it I would tell you. All I can suggest is you get a few heads together.


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## Mike Greene (Dec 22, 2017)

khollister said:


> And so where are we suppose to post deals we discover when we aren’t the publisher? I appreciate what you are trying to do but this is making the forum a bit less friendly to the users along with rewarding the advertisers IMHO.


Post in either one. If you know whether the company is an advertiser or not, post in that one, but don't sweat it. It's easy enough for me to move them if you guess wrong.


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## Mike Greene (Dec 22, 2017)

Kony said:


> What about two tiers of membership, a free one for artists and a paying subscription model for developers (with a tier structure for different developers depending on their size)? That way they can post commercial ads as much as they want having paid for the privilege - and it could also be indicated in their avatar/signature that they are a developer in the interests of transparency?


While it may sound simple, that would be a lot of work to maintain. Also, some developers have been known to try to get around that sort of thing by pretending to be a regular member (shill or sock puppet.)


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## Mike Greene (Dec 22, 2017)

Mucusman said:


> Well, I guess if I was just viewing posts by looking at the Latest Posts sidebar, yes, there'd be no difference. On my phone, I have had two Firefox tabs open at all times for the Commercial Announcements and Deals Deals Deals (and other tabs for other topics of interest). Now, if I want to see the same content, I get to check _four _tabs. That's a noticeable difference.


I could be wrong, but my guess is that for most people who don't use Latest Posts, the tabs they keep open would be Sample Talk or other topic oriented forums, rather than Commercial Announcements. Not that I'm trying to downplay your situation, but I have limited options here.


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## Mike Greene (Dec 22, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> @Mike Greene There must be a better solution for you. If I had it I would tell you. All I can suggest is you get a few heads together.


If you find that solution, I'll listen to it.


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## Rudankort (Dec 23, 2017)

Mike Greene said:


> Admittedly, that is a downside. In fact, it's now _two_ additional forums, because I did the same thing for the Deals, Deals, Deals forum.



Oh I did not realize there was another one coming. Well... As a relatively new forum member with no track record of super-useful posts, I don't feel like I even have a vote in the matter. But I must say, all this does strike me as rather user unfriendly. Bloated forum list, useful information scattered all over the place in a seemingly arbitrary way... I mean hey, I've posted on countless forums over the years, but I can't even remember a single other example where things were organized like this. And although you say that we can post the deals anywhere and this will get sorted, personally I will be much more reluctant to post anything in Deals forums again. I don't like to do things in a wrong way and create additional work for others.

I understand the challenges you are facing, and given technical limitations of forum software it might be hard to come up with a better solution (maybe it's a sign that the design needs to be changed instead  ). But in the end, even if your users appreciate these difficulties, they will seek options for deal monitoring which are more convenient for _them_. When Deals forum was reformed not so long ago, the premise was to have all deals in one place (great idea!), and now... ouch!


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Dec 23, 2017)

It might help to put in the forum description for tier 1 that it's only for paying advertisers and change the tier 2 to say non-paying advertisers (if I'm "advertising" a product am I not already an "advertiser"...) in order to make it clear. A lot of people probably won't read the "Please read" thread so it could help.

Personally, I was always confused since some people said it was paying only yet there were other people posting and the description never mentioned it being paying only. The "Please read" clears it all up now but for those who don't bother...


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## thov72 (Dec 23, 2017)

Good idea, Mike! Keep up the great work and thank you for the fish


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## Øivind (Dec 23, 2017)

the tier naming is a bit confusing, this also doubles the amount of forums etc.
Can't the non-paying members be tagged in some way so their Threads (not posts) in CA and Deals are invisible to guests? That way the CA and Deals forums will show only payed threads for guests and all threads for members.


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## mc_deli (Dec 24, 2017)

Yeah really dont like the duplicate bacon. Already too many subfora. 

This is negative to usability and will decrease eyeballs on everyone's posts.

Go back to the original problem: you want to give advertisers some added value. 

How about, go back to one commercial announcements subf including all deals -> and give posts from ad partners a highlight colour. And include a list of (10) ad partners' most recent posts at the top of latest posts, and in your newsletter and on the .com front page.

There, less fora, more promo for ad partners.


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## Mike Greene (Dec 24, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> How about, go back to one commercial announcements subf including all deals . . .


The separate Deals section has been a success IMO. It's nice having sales separated from announcements. FWIW, it wasn't my idea, but I think it was a very good one.



mc_deli said:


> ... and give posts from ad partners a highlight colour. And include a list of (10) ad partners' most recent posts at the top of latest posts, and in your newsletter and on the .com front page.


Advertisers aren't going to be motivated by a highlight color. Putting a list of the 10 advertisers at the top of the Latest Posts would be annoying for people checking latest posts. Plus I don't know how to do either one of those.

The bottom line is this - the new format worked. I got two renewals on the day I instituted it and one more since, plus a couple advertisers told me I incorrectly moved them to Tier 2. (I moved them back.) Developers definitely took notice.

That's a help, because running this forum has cost me. Every complaining PM I have to answer (you have no idea  ) is time taken away from Realitone or composing. Every thread like this I have to get involved in is time taken away from Realitone or composing. Every hour I spend updating and emailing developers to tell them their ads expired is an hour taken away from Realitone or composing. Every hour I spend trying to see if there's "a better way" is an hour taken away from Realitone or composing.

I can appreciate that there's a downside for some members who check Commercial Announcements and Deals separately, but with all due respect, I don't think I'm asking _that_ much. For Commercial Announcements, instead of Option-Click, it's now Option-Click, Option-Click. Even if you check both Commercial Announcements and Deals, it's now, Option-Click, Option-Click, Option-Click, Option-Click. Here, I'll do it right now and time myself ...
...
Took me four seconds. Then, to actually scan the posts takes no additional time, since it's the same number of posts whether they're in two forums or four.

With all that said, I am looking into to seeing if can merge the formats. Again, that's more time and money (I'm in communication with both André and Claudio about it), but to try to satisfy those troubled by the two extra Option-Clicks, I'm going to try.

Or ... anyone here is more than welcome to see what they discover. This is a XenForo forum, so whatever you find has to work with that. I'm serious about that, by the way. Start looking into what's actually involved in making XenForo changes and I suspect I'll see a lot less _"Mike, it should be easy to ... " _ Even something as seemingly simple as color coding posts from paying advertisers, or modifying the Latest Posts feed to make the top 10 posts from advertisers are not trivial tasks.


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## playz123 (Dec 24, 2017)

No problem here clicking on a few additional conferences, but what surprises me are the number of well known developers in Tier 2 who aren’t paying and have been getting a free ride. Boo!


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## rrichard63 (Dec 24, 2017)

khollister said:


> And so where are we suppose to post deals we discover when we aren’t the publisher? I appreciate what you are trying to do but this is making the forum a bit less friendly to the users along with rewarding the advertisers IMHO.


I have the same question. A few weeks ago, I posted a question about a brand new product with an introductory price that had not appeared in Commercial Announcements. I forget whether I put it in Sample Talk or Deals, Deals, Deals. A moderator moved it to Commercial Announcements, even though I'm not a publisher of anything.

Apologies if I just committed a thread hijacking.


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## brynolf (Dec 25, 2017)

Rudankort said:


> Oh I did not realize there was another one coming. Well... As a relatively new forum member with no track record of super-useful posts, I don't feel like I even have a vote in the matter. But I must say, all this does strike me as rather user unfriendly. Bloated forum list, useful information scattered all over the place in a seemingly arbitrary way... I mean hey, I've posted on countless forums over the years, but I can't even remember a single other example where things were organized like this. And although you say that we can post the deals anywhere and this will get sorted, personally I will be much more reluctant to post anything in Deals forums again. I don't like to do things in a wrong way and create additional work for others.
> 
> I understand the challenges you are facing, and given technical limitations of forum software it might be hard to come up with a better solution (maybe it's a sign that the design needs to be changed instead  ). But in the end, even if your users appreciate these difficulties, they will seek options for deal monitoring which are more convenient for _them_. When Deals forum was reformed not so long ago, the premise was to have all deals in one place (great idea!), and now... ouch!


Very much this!


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## mc_deli (Dec 25, 2017)

brynolf said:


> Very much this!


...and i agree as an older user. Much harder to scan the forum now. Especially on mobile where every click is precious!

My previous suggestion (colours) wasn't serious. Just feel bad commenting without suggesting something! Of course any solution needs to work with the forum CMS and save the admin time.

The current solution with far too many sub fora is really odd and will surely lower traffic and be bad in the end for all parties. Overall it seems like a bodge. Good luck with sorting it out. Happy xmas!


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## heisenberg (Dec 26, 2017)

Trying to get into the nuance of this new system now from the perspective of regular forum members who post up on deals that they find in their email boxes or in their travels around The Internetz.

Someone who has no affiliation with a music software publisher or derives no financial benefit where do they post up the deals they wish the community to see? It is not clear to me. There are qualifying statements about who can publish deals where if you are a developer/publisher but for an **uncompensated enthusiast, where do they post up deal information? If they are relegated to the Tier 2 forum then some people may think said software publisher is not paying for ads when in fact they could be but the perception is they are not. This could be bad for their business in the long haul.

**Uncompensated in my mind would exclude people who are dispensing affiliate links, getting NFRs/swag from said company or money for promoting the product.


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## Mike Greene (Dec 26, 2017)

rrichard63 said:


> A few weeks ago, I posted a question about a brand new product with an introductory price that had not appeared in Commercial Announcements. I forget whether I put it in Sample Talk or Deals, Deals, Deals. A moderator moved it to Commercial Announcements, even though I'm not a publisher of anything.





heisenberg said:


> Trying to get into the nuance of this new system now from the perspective of regular forum members who post up on deals that they find in their email boxes or in their travels around The Internetz.
> 
> Someone who has no affiliation with a music software publisher or derives no financial benefit where do they post up the deals they wish the community to see?


Post wherever you want. No need to over-think it. If it's in the wrong place, we'll move it. Easy. No harm, no foul.

I should mention that there have *always* been fuzzy lines about which forum for any given thread, even when all we had were Sample Talk and Commercial Announcements. The general rule was that if it's the company who's posting, then it's a commercial announcement. If it's a member who's posting, it goes in Sample Talk.

But ... that started working against the honest companies who had their discussion in the CA threads, while the companies who would wait it out (or more annoyingly, use surrogates) would see their discussion in the more popular Sample Talk forum. So we move topics all the time. Nothing new there.


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