# I have made a pragmatic decision.



## EastWest Lurker (Nov 11, 2015)

Since the day I took a part time job as the Online Coordinator for EastWest, I have tried to do the job but still participate in all the ways other members do: sharing my knowledge, my experiences, my opinions, helping people not only with EW products and issues but with any other software and hardware When I had something I felt I could contribute. Even politics.

It isn't working for some people here and now it has reached the point where it isn't working for me either.

So from here on out, my public participation here will be limited to EastWest business. I think this is the pragmatic way to proceed. Of course people who want to interact with me apart from that can always pm or email me.

I don't write this from anger, I just think it is best and I suspect many here, perhaps most, will agree.


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## zacnelson (Nov 11, 2015)

Sorry to hear this Jay, well I'm sure I'll see plenty of you on the forum since I'm often reading EastWest discussions.


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## Dr.Quest (Nov 11, 2015)

Jay,
I think this is a mistake based on one post by someone who may or may not be thinking of the implications of all of this. You have valuable insights. You should keep them coming. Really.


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 11, 2015)

No, this is a decision I have been considering for quite a long time. Frank is not the first one to express mixed feelings about my dual roles and it isn't just because of him.

Anyway, i will still be available privately for discussions. I am not disappearing, just limiting myself so that I can do my job with less distractions.


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## playz123 (Nov 11, 2015)

Dr.Quest said:


> Jay,
> I think this is a mistake based on one post by someone who may or may not be thinking of the implications of all of this. You have valuable insights. You should keep them coming. Really.


I am fully aware of the implications of what I actually wrote, but this action is, of course, not what I suggested or even implied Jay should take. If anyone reading this thread is confused, I only ask you that you read my post. At no time have I ever suggested that "Jay" should not post here.

Jay, You are fully aware that I respect you as a person. This is a decision YOU are free to make, but I do hope you will reconsider, or be certain it's really what you want to do. I also can't quite understand why you shouldn't be able to post as an EW rep., but then also have a separate Jay Asher account. Seems to me it would be a great idea. On the other hand, this is Frederick's forum, not mine.


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## prodigalson (Nov 11, 2015)

I think this is a shame. Experienced and knowledgeable members who are as active as you have been are few and far between and your quick and spirited responses will be missed.

I understand why some people balk at seeing caustic opinions in certain commercial announcement threads posted next to the EastWest Logo but I don't think that's your fault.

It's not entirely clear why Frederick decided you couldn't post under two separate monikers but I would think having you post under Ashermusic in non-EW related contexts would be a lot less dangerous than forcing you to sign off every opinion with East West Lurker. 

IMO, it would be more beneficial to the forum to have you hear participating freely than to have the opposite so I would like to think bringing back the Ashermusic pseudonym would be helpful.


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## Vik (Nov 12, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Even politics.


I haven't seen those comments, but if I were running a company and someone was posting in the company's name, I'd rather have him not post about eg. politics_ using that account/the company's logo/signature_ etc, so IMHO your decision makes sense. 
For that reason, I assume it's OK for the admins here to have both a private and a company account?


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## tav.one (Nov 12, 2015)

I personally love your posts and was surprised that how unbiased you were, you genuinely help a lot of members like me.

I would also love you to keep posting from personal account.


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## mc_deli (Nov 12, 2015)

I would not be able to work without the advice you have given here and elsewhere. I am very, very grateful for that. And I hope you will keep posting somehow about non-EW/personal things.

But, yes, it is difficult sometimes, as mentioned, in non-EW threads, and because you do shoot straight!

I hope you carry on. And I suggest sticking with one user and being clear about your role/affiliation if you do join threads about other developers.

Whichever way, thank you very much. You rock


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## OT_Tobias (Nov 12, 2015)

Just chiming in as a fellow company rep. I applaud your decision, Jay.
I did the same shortly after joining OT after actually being threatened with legal action.
I respect VI Control's policy of not allowing two accounts for the same person, but I think cases like Jay, myself or others should warrant an exception. We are working in an industry where most people are also "consumers" of their own products and those of other companies. Also as far as I know Jay works part-time for EW, so he actually has a valid reason to also have a personal account.
In any case - keeping silent worked for me. I always read all topics and if I feel people could benefit from my help I reach out to them via PM, but mostly I stay silent and only post in Commercial Announcements.


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## D.Salzenberg (Nov 12, 2015)

Jay, will miss your contributions. Please try and make a separate personal account or revive the Ashermusic one.
Moderators, please make an exception for reps to also hold a personal account!!!


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## pmountford (Nov 12, 2015)

Sorry to hear this Jay as I always respected your considered opinions, whether I agreed or not. I hope some alternative can be worked out to allow you to voice your constructive thoughts.


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## Carles (Nov 12, 2015)

Jay, you shouldn't do that.
Please think on the people who enjoys your personal presence like I do.
Honestly, I don't care about EW products and I wish I could replace all Play contribution in my template, so I do not read posts about EW, but I like to read your personal contribution in all sort of posts.
I wish Jay "they guy" will still participate in the forum, however if that's a final decision then I'll respect that of course.
Just please try to reconsider that for a moment.
Best,
Carles


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## Hannes_F (Nov 12, 2015)

Hi there,
I can explain what has been the official opinion so far regarding double accounts and why they are not allowed: Many members (really very many) of this forum have some commercial offering of the one or the other kind. If you count in links to composer's websites this probably includes the majority, but apart from that here are sample developers, programmers, designers, music theory teachers, orchestrators, recordists and much more. I think this makes part of why this community is so interesting.

If we allowed double accounts for each and every of them - one company account and one private account - this could get confusing very soon.

Most get along quite well by simply avoiding threads about competitors or competitor's products, whether they are in Commercial Announcements or not. Usually this works.

There are some (unwanted) exceptions where developers use shill accounts in order to praise their own product or condemn competitors. With the current regulation we moderators have some leverage against this and if we catch them we can hit them on their fingers. This would be much harder with a new regulation and we would need to think hard about much more refined regulations about what is allowed and what not if we would allow double accounts.

That being said nothing is set in stone, but I feel a policy change in that regard, if it ever happens, needs to be very well thought over.


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## Daniel James (Nov 12, 2015)

While we rarely see eye to eye Jay I really would hate to see you bow out of discussions altogether. You do have a point of view to share and its just as valid as any other member! 

-DJ


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## Baron Greuner (Nov 12, 2015)

I misread the title of this thread as 'I have made a pathetic decision'.

Sorry. Carry on.


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## KEnK (Nov 12, 2015)

Jay- As you know, I've always enjoyed your quick wit.
I agree w/ what many have said here, my own sentiments are echoed by Carles's.
Personally, I think your participation here would be more valuable as "yourself",
rather than as an EW spokesperson.
I'm sure your mind is made up-
but consider leaving the EW mantle behind instead of "Jay Asher".

There are very few people here who are willing to offer a contrarian viewpoint.
Too much agreement is of little value, as a mutual admiration society can be quite vapid and stilted.
Challenge is an important part of Art and growth for the Artist,
and your willingness to engage in the differences of opinion
that need to arise in such discussion is far more valuable than simple polite agreement.

So your voice will be missed in many debates, this place will become more bland w/o it.

Thank you Mr Asher.

k


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## KEnK (Nov 12, 2015)

Hannes_F said:


> If we allowed double accounts for each and every of them - one company account and one private account - this could get confusing very soon.


Possibly it would be less confusing, 
as it would be easier to see when someone involved in a business is speaking personally,
rather than as part of a corporate entity.
I would certain speak differently to a "person", a fellow artist,
than to a "company rep".

This stance should be re-considered imo

k


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## SergeD (Nov 12, 2015)

Hannes_F said:


> Hi there,
> Most get along quite well by simply avoiding threads about competitors or competitor's products, whether they are in Commercial Announcements or not. Usually this works.



That's the best way to proceed. You won't be happy if you restrict yourself to participate in discussions not related to your job. Life is short.


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## reddognoyz (Nov 12, 2015)

Yea Jay, I value your input here! 

You offer, in my opinion, your personal totally biased opinion, unbiased by you association with EW. To me it's clear that you speak your mind on all subjects equally. 

You are a fanboy of EW you love 'em and use those VI's all the time, lot's of people do. I do. There's no reason why you shouldn't voice your opinion on other subjects as well. Perhaps it would be wrong to speak ill of other competing libraries because of your relationship with EW, but I can't recall you ever doing that, at least in a dismissive way. 

You've been invaluable to me as a liaison for EW here, but you are as entitled to your wrong opinions as much as anybody. : ) 

ps the red sox suck! <<< Bill Buckner>>>. Come on, ignore that, see? you can't can you??? bring it!!


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 12, 2015)

Thank all of you for the very kind and supportive remarks. I really do appreciate them. But Tobias is right. When I feel I can be helpful or when someone wants my opinion, PM or email is best.

And when I DID have the two names, that didn't work either. I would post something as Ashermusic and someone would say, "An EW rep should not say that." I would point out that I posted as Ashermusic and they would say, "It doesn't matter which name you use, you still work for EW and it reflects on them."

And Frank's post is not to blame for this decision, his post just provided me with the impetus to do something that I already knew I needed to do. Anyway, I am still here and still available for help with and discussion about EW publicly and everything else privately.


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## bbunker (Nov 12, 2015)

Nope. Don't think that it's the best decision, pragmatically or not.

Basically, your risk-reward is off. The actual risk of someone suing the company over anything you say is remote - for various reasons that you probably already know. Some population not giving any value to the simple fact that you can say things either privately or as a mouthpiece for a company does not give that population license to litigate.

The reward is intangible but valuable: even those who don't particularly like you, even those who HATE you, will likely have a more positive view of EW because of your private activity here - because like you or loathe you, your activity here helps to give EW a human public face, which it desperately needs; EW's marketing strategies and activities have given them a 'monolithic' public identity of relatively unyielding corporate homogeny, and your activities, no matter how 'off-topic' or political, are one of their few counters to that identity.

Basically, I'd suggest that the 'everything else' being taken private would diminish indirectly the value that you'd have publicly. Pragmatically, your best contribution to EW is to do exactly what you've done: maintain an active and full involvement here, both publicly and privately, both on company and personal matters, while making clear in what capacity you're speaking.

If it's actually a personal decision - I think any fool could see that you take a ridiculous amount of heat, being the nose on the face of EW to be hacked away at - then I would completely respect that. I'd still nudge you away from that decision, but ultimately it's yours to make!


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 12, 2015)

Really, more positive view? Do you know how many times after I have written something people have said, "You are not helping EW by writing that" 

But, yes, some of the decision is related to just the amount of energy it takes to argue with people so much. It is one thing to do it when I am paid to ,and because I believe in it, and another to fight with people because I have ventured to offer an honest opinion or advice about something. As you say, I take a "ridiculous amount of heat" and that is OK, I am a big boy and I knew what I was signing on for when I accepted the position. But if I can at least limit it to EW issues and products, it will lower my stress level, and that is not a bad thing.


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## jononotbono (Nov 12, 2015)

Well in my short time (so far) of joining VI Control you have been nothing but helpful and given me lots of advice. I'm glad you will still be contactable! Thanks!


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Nov 12, 2015)

And in the long time I've been here, you, Sir Jay, have changed your mind at least as often as the best of us. We'll see how this plays out in a year. You can take Jay out of VI-C, but you can't take VI-C out of Jay!


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## jacobthestupendous (Nov 12, 2015)

bbunker said:


> your activity here helps to give EW a human public face, which it desperately needs; EW's marketing strategies and activities have given them a 'monolithic' public identity of relatively unyielding corporate homogeny, and your activities, no matter how 'off-topic' or political, are one of their few counters to that identity.


I agree with this.

I also echo the people who have valued your contributions here, but I'd take it a bit further. As I see it, your EW logo actually adds credibility to you when you make statements that are not explicitly pro-EW, which you do with reasonable frequency. Your transparent affiliation with them gives many of your already articulate opinions much more weight.

I certainly understand a degree of exhaustion around constantly jumping into the fray, but your occasionally contrary view is valuable and not just to the person to whom you are directly responding. This is why it will be disappointing for you to resort to PM.


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 12, 2015)

I have to say I am somewhat shocked by this reaction. I honestly thought I would get a lot of, "yes, that is probably for the best."

Maybe those who would feel that way aren't reading the thread


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## Zhao Shen (Nov 12, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> I have to say I am somewhat shocked by this reaction. I honestly thought I would get a lot of, "yes, that is probably for the best."
> 
> Maybe those who would feel that way aren't reading the thread


I wouldn't mind them. People that want someone quiet just because they don't agree 100% of the time? That's ridiculous. I really do think you should stay, Jay. It's a bit of a tricky situation because making personal posts from an account that represents EastWest is a bit confusing - but it's far preferable to missing your valuable input on this forum.


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## chimuelo (Nov 12, 2015)

Just get the password from a neighbors ISP.
Go for a 3rd identity at the Library.
I often have 3 way arguments with myself where naturally the other 2 identities end up standing corrected so the identity known as Chimuelo can reign supreme.


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## Dean (Nov 12, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> I have to say I am somewhat shocked by this reaction. I honestly thought I would get a lot of, "yes, that is probably for the best."
> 
> Maybe those who would feel that way aren't reading the thread



Does this impact your life in a positive way or a negative way,..decision wise,nothing else matters! D


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## Mike Greene (Nov 12, 2015)

FWIW, I find I have to be pretty careful about what I post nowadays, since I also represent a "developer." I really, really miss being able to post some of the stuff I used to.

But although I pull back a bit, I haven’t restricted myself completely to only Realitone stuff, and I don’t think you should, either. I can’t imagine that there’s anyone here who wouldn’t want you to chime in on a thread about industry stuff, or composition, or even poor choices in baseball teams. And we Logic users would definitely hate to see you stop posting. So my vote is you continue to post on all (okay, most) topics.

With that said, I think there are times when silence could go a long way, especially when it comes to critiquing, and you might be better served by saying something once, then letting it go, even if what you wrote seems to be getting ignored. Not every falsehood needs to be corrected, and even when they do, there are lots of other people here who share your opinions (dopey as they usually are), so I don’t think you need to feel that you need to carry a torch on your own. I have to keep telling myself the same thing, by the way. There are times when I want to smack some sense into someone, but I stop myself, because I don't want people to start thinking, _"Wow, that Realitone guy is really a jerk!"_ (They would be correct, of course, but I don't want to give them written proof of it.)


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## mc_deli (Nov 12, 2015)

Mike Greene said:


> FWIW...


Exactly this. What he said


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 12, 2015)

Mike, that is wise advice but a couple of things:

I believe that time has shown that when I try to do that, some people just _like_ to fight and they intentionally bait me, (which btw, I think reflects very poorly on them as human beings.) Now you can say nothing forces me to take the bait, but that is just really hard for me, because I actually care, and I don't seem to know how to turn that off.

You wrote: "I can’t imagine that there’s anyone here who wouldn’t want you to chime in on a thread about industry stuff, or composition, or even poor choices in baseball teams."

But Frank has pretty much already said that just seeing the EW logo and the name EastWest Lurker in threads about non-EW products doesn't feel right to him and others have said that too. So then I don't post about other products? And I don't post about politics? What is out of bounds and what is fair game for me? Only Logic Pro and VE Pro? Can't I comment on a product like Exhale or The Ladies, as I have, when EW does not have a competitive product even though it is as EastWest Lurker with the EW logo? Can I not compliment another developer who I think does fine work even when EW DOES have a competitive product? I am sure Doug would prefer that I didn't  But I always have felt that people would see that I don't just tout the company but give honest opinions. But it doesn't seem to work that way. (Or judging from this thread, maybe it does?)

I don't want to spend my time walking on eggshells, saying to myself, "Is this one OK? How about that other one?" It is frankly exhausting.

Dean asked: "Does this impact your life in a positive way or a negative way,..decision wise, nothing else matters!"

I think sticking to this decision will impact my life in a positive way. As soon as I wrote that initial post I felt a certain amount of weight off my shoulders. But I will give it some more thought and would welcome any suggestions as to how to find a balance that I and most of the people here, 90% of whom are extremely fair minded, even when we disagree, can live with.


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## Dean (Nov 12, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Dean asked: "Does this impact your life in a positive way or a negative way,..decision wise, nothing else matters!"
> 
> I think sticking to this decision will impact my life in a positive way. As soon as I wrote that initial post I felt a certain amount of weight off my shoulders. But I will give it some more thought and would welcome any suggestions as to how to find a balance that I and most of the people here, 90% of whom are extremely fair minded, even when we disagree, can live with.



Sounds to me that right now this is the right decision to make.Who knows?,..maybe just saying it and the energy that comes back will loosen a few knots in your rope? D


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## Astronaut FX (Nov 12, 2015)

My opinion is that you add more value here as yourself. I don't know what level of income you derive by doing so in an EW representative capacity, but maybe the answer is to just be Jay. 

I kind of think having you here as an EW rep does as much bad for EW as good. Getting entangled with EW detractors doesn't seem to be helping anyone. But Jay, the person, has been extremely helpful. And I think would be even more so without the EW agenda. 

Maybe post here as Jay, and let EW pay you to moderate their own forum. Win win win.


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 12, 2015)

No, I like my job more than I like participating in this forum  

They pay me, I am treated respectfully as a person of value, and I am given and get to help people with products that (mostly) I truly love to compose with myself. 

And you probably would not like the way I would moderate the SOL forum. It might be a little looser than it presently is, but not significantly, and certainly not like this one because I just have a different philosophy than most here.


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## mc_deli (Nov 12, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> I don't want to spend my time walking on eggshells, saying to myself, "Is this one OK? How about that other one?" It is frankly exhausting.



But that is the job, isn't it? This is interesting for me as my day job involves representing companies in socmed, ghost writing, assuming identities and/or using my own. I cannot comment on some social networks in some scenarios. I constantly have to be aware of my client base and alert to conflicts of interest. Basic use of Facebook and LinkedIn is a massive chore, and exhausting. But it is because it is heavily related to the work I am paid to do.


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 12, 2015)

Correct, but if I limit it to EW stuff I cut the number of those decisions down massively.


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 12, 2015)

Jay, I didn't even know you worked for EastWest Ministries. In what country are you based? Had I known that, I would have given my donations directly to you and cut out the middle man!


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## Saxer (Nov 12, 2015)

I repect your decision and understand the reasons. It's no fun to feel having to justify yourself for every public remark.
But I will miss your comments. I had a lot of benefit from your tipps and unselfish shared knowledge. Thanks for that!


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## playz123 (Nov 12, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> No, I like my job more than I like participating in this forum
> 
> They pay me, I am treated respectfully as a person of value, and I am given and get to help people with products that (mostly) I truly love to compose with myself.
> 
> And you probably would not like the way I would moderate the SOL forum. It might be a little looser than it presently is, but not significantly, and certainly not like this one because I just have a different philosophy than most here.


I think that really explains things to others quite clearly and, based on that, I can only think that you have made the right decision....both for yourself and your employer. And you've stated your priorities, which are really important for forum participants to note. So personally I see no point now in suggesting alternatives. However I will add that one possible solution I was going to propose (before I read this latest collection of posts) was that you post as 'Jay' and simply place a huge disclaimer in your signature. I also point to Mike and Tobias' approaches as examples of various ways to still do what you might have wished to do. But my suggestion seem to be a moot point now that you have explained that representing EW is more important. Based on that, I concur that you are doing the right thing...not only for you personally, but for the company you represent. And you've effectively alluded to the fact that while other developer's post aren't generally allowed on the EW forum, "EW" continues to have no problem with making their presence felt in abundance here. "EastWest" popping up everywhere is, as I suggested, a way of making their presence known in multiple locations, while they are, at the same time, stopping other developers from doing the same on their own forum. That is what I was saying doesn't feel 'right'.

It appears most people thankfully seem be aware that my own points were all about EW's overwhelming presence in nearly every category on this forum, and had _nothing_ to do with Jay as an individual, or his contributions to this forum.

Jay I believe you are the one who must decide who and what you want to be and do, and we can only agree or not agree to support you in that decision. Based on everything you've written so far, I think it is clear you are doing what is best for you, and in the long run will cause less stress in your life. But no matter what you eventually decide, it still does not address concerns about EW's double standards, nor your support of them, nor their name showing up 'everywhere' here.

All the best, and I'm pleased you have no plans to disappear completely, even if I would rather be speaking to Jay all the time instead of an EW employee.  Cheers.


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## playz123 (Nov 12, 2015)

Saxer said:


> I repect your decision and understand the reasons. It's no fun to feel having to justify yourself for every public remark.
> But I will miss your comments. I had a lot of benefit from your tipps and unselfish shared knowledge. Thanks for that!


@Saxer, Jay is not saying he's leaving the forum (in case you misunderstood). So you won't be missing his comments...trust me....he'll still have plenty to offer here  He's just defined what his role here will be.


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## Saxer (Nov 12, 2015)

playz123 said:


> @Saxer[/USER], Jay is not saying he's leaving the forum (in case you misunderstood)...


I know... but there will be this 'scissors in the head' thing... probably an internet (anonymous comments) problem.


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## germancomponist (Nov 12, 2015)

Jay!!!


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## atw (Nov 12, 2015)

germancomponist said:


> Jay!!!


The previous post deserves a medal


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## mc_deli (Nov 12, 2015)

This is going to go like one of those Star Trek episodes isn't it... are there two Jays?


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## KEnK (Nov 12, 2015)

playz123 said:


> "EW" continues to have no problem with making their presence felt in abundance here. "EastWest" popping up everywhere is, as I suggested, a way of making their presence known in multiple locations,


Give it a rest


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## careyford (Nov 12, 2015)

Jay, I respect your decision, and ultimately you (and possibly your employer) are who have to deal with the decision either way. Your contributions here have been extremely helpful to me and many users. Thank you.


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## KEnK (Nov 12, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Frank has pretty much already said that just seeing the EW logo and the name EastWest Lurker in threads about non-EW products doesn't feel right to him and others have said that too. So then I don't post about other products? And I don't post about politics? What is out of bounds and what is fair game for me? Only Logic Pro and VE Pro? Can't I comment on a product like Exhale or The Ladies, as I have, when EW does not have a competitive product even though it is as EastWest Lurker with the EW logo? Can I not compliment another developer who I think does fine work even when EW DOES have a competitive product? I am sure Doug would prefer that I didn't  But I always have felt that people would see that I don't just tout the company but give honest opinions. But it doesn't seem to work that way. (Or judging from this thread, maybe it does?)


To Frederick and Every One Else-

I vote we make an exception and allow Jay to simply have 2 identities.
It's very clear that enough people here can't see past and don't want to see past the EW logo.
Seems to me it was no problem at all having "Jay Asher" and "EW Lurker" active here simultaneously. 
And what is being lost here because of removing Jay's alternate identity?
Jay's participation. 
We are sophisticated enough about the circumstances to allow that in this case,
w/o the need to open the "alleged" can of worms of multiple identities.

This community is about to lose the input of a valued resource, (that being Jay Asher)
because of the relentless antagonism of very few individuals.

Not worth the price of keeping a "single identity" rule.

A poll?

k


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## playz123 (Nov 12, 2015)

KEnK said:


> To Frederick and Every One Else-
> 
> I vote we make an exception and allow Jay to simply have 2 identities.
> 
> ...


a) Please read post #14
b) You and I and many other respondents are not running this forum, nor is it run by consensus.  Frederick and his team are the only ones who can decide, and I have every confidence they have done, and will do, what is best for all concerned. I, for one, have no intention of questioning their decisions.
c) Jay's input as a representative of EW is not being lost at all; he'll still be here in that capacity. He chooses to remain as a representative of that company and in that capacity alone, and that is his decision. He's clearly explained HIS reasons for doing so.



KEnK said:


> Give it a rest


That comment is inflammatory and unwarranted, and I don't appreciate it. And please don't quote me out of context. Thank you.


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## KEnK (Nov 12, 2015)

Frank,
I did read post #14 and that is what I'm responding to.
Spare me and all of us your condescending bull-
I offer a question and a solution to the community at large.

As to my comment, it is completely inflammatory and completely warranted.
You still cannot see that there is more to Jay than his occasionally representing EW to people like you.
Too bad.

And in case I'm not clear enough-
You should just stop talking about EW in this thread
This thread is about the appreciation the forum has for Jay.
Please confine your EW rants to the 14 page debacle thread.

Thanks

k


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## mc_deli (Nov 12, 2015)

I have made a pragmatic decision
I'm gonna try, for the kingdom if I can
'Cos when the notes begin to flow
And I really don't care any more
About all the Hanz's in this town
And everybody puttin' everybody down
And all the developers making crazy sounds
And I guess I just don't know
And I guess I just don't know


(thank the lord for the music in our heads. life's too short.)


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 12, 2015)

KEnK, as I said, the two names thing was initially allowed and tried and the mods AND me eventually concluded that it just didn't work. There are some here who either can't, or won't, view anything I write outside the filter of my being an EW rep, no matter what name I post under, and they have been pretty candid about that. I think it is a small number, but they tend to feel strongly and are persistent in posting. Which leads to more unconstructive arguments that actually have little to do with me doing my job. 

I'm very touched by all the supportive comments. I really didn't know that my contributions were as valued as apparently they are, so this has been an unexpected reward for starting the thread. 

But I do think that my decision is best for me, EW, and the forum as a whole so that is how I am moving forward.


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## D.Salzenberg (Nov 12, 2015)

I think it's a real shame that those few people on here who seem to have an anti East West agenda have brought this situation on the forum.
Jay is one of the real characters on here, and the forum will be much worse off without his contributions.
The only East West products I own are really old ones Storm Drum, EWSO Silver, and Voices of the Apocalypse, I really dislike their No Resale policy ( along with Spitfires and 8dios ) so I'm not a fanboy by any stretch, but the anti East West stance taken by a few on here at every single opportunity is beginning to stink of a hidden agenda to me.


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 12, 2015)

I think this would be the appropriate time to lock the thread if one of the mods is so inclined.


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## KEnK (Nov 12, 2015)

Well Jay-

Thanks for directly addressing what I said-
The 2 name thing did work quite clearly for me and I think most-
It's a "f***ing" shame that a couple of intemperate fools can make this happen.

But your decision is definitely the forum's loss

That much is perfectly clear.

See Ya 'round Bro!

k


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## D.Salzenberg (Nov 12, 2015)

playz123 said:


> a) Please read post #14
> b) You and I and many other respondents are not running this forum, nor is it run by consensus.  Frederick and his team are the only ones who can decide, and I have every confidence they have done, and will do, what is best for all concerned. I, for one, have no intention of questioning their decisions.
> c) Jay's input as a representative of EW is not being lost at all; he'll still be here in that capacity. He chooses to remain as a representative of that company and in that capacity alone, and that is his decision. He's clearly explained HIS reasons for doing so.
> 
> ...


Well you certainly like to throw your weight around like you run the forum.
Hope you are very pleased with yourself for making it a less interesting place to be.


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## playz123 (Nov 12, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> Well you certainly like to throw your weight around like you run the forum.
> Hope you are very pleased with yourself for making it a less interesting place to be.


Wow...never expected to see something like that today. Sorry, mate...in that first part of my last message I was only expressing a _personal_ opinion and attempting be somewhat informative, but I guess you didn't see it that way. But in response to your remark and an earlier one, I was taught to be respectful of the opinions of others and I have always attempted to do that both here and elsewhere. I also attempt to share my views or opinions without being insulting or accusatory, even if I may not always succeed. In any case I really have no intention of being baited into an angry exchange with you or anyone else. Jay and I are happy with our exchanges, and like and respect each other, and that's what matters to _me_ today. He's a great guy, and I'll continue to support him and maintain a respectful dialogue with him, sometimes even when others do not. That is our history. Life is short. Have a nice day.


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## playz123 (Nov 12, 2015)

KEnK said:


> Frank,
> I did read post #14 and that is what I'm responding to.
> Spare me and all of us your condescending bull-
> I offer a question and a solution to the community at large.
> ...


Not sure why you feel that way if you really read my previous posts, but you certainly are entitled to your opinions. I've never insulted Jay, questioned his input or contributions to the forum or any such thing. Also I suggest your assessment of my input is, in my view, totally inaccurate. But I respect your right to express your opinions. What I don't see is the need to be insulting and offer derogatory comments at the same time. In any case, maybe it's best I refrain from posting further on this subject since these things have a way of spiraling. Hope we can chat again on more friendly terms sometime. Cheers.


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## Dean (Nov 12, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> I think this would be the appropriate time to lock the thread if one of the mods is so inclined.



I second that! D


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## rJames (Nov 12, 2015)

I don't see any reason why you (Jay) shouldn't just go on as usual. Of course, its your decision.
But any reasonable person can make up their own mind if someone who has an avatar of a sample developer can be trusted to speak the truth in any thread whether it is about their products or other company products.
It would be easier for all of us if the VI rules were that if you ARE a representative of a company, please use the company logo as your avatar.
It the representatives that pretend to be innocent bystanders that we need to look out for.
I see that Tobias from OT also has a logo on his avatar. This should be commended.
I see no problem with Jay or anyone else posting in any thread whatsoever as a company spokesperson or as an individual.
It will be this forum's loss if Jay feels pressured to stop posting.
(BTW part of your appeal to EW is that you are here hanging around and getting involved in anything and everything)
So everyone just move on... nothing to see here...


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## rayinstirling (Nov 12, 2015)

I find it difficult to understand why this is a multi page discussion when it's obviously headed as an announcement.

Of course, I do not believe for one minute, Jay actually intends staying, generally silent


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## Hannes_F (Nov 13, 2015)

KEnK said:


> To Frederick and Every One Else-
> 
> I vote we make an exception and allow Jay to simply have 2 identities.
> It's very clear that enough people here can't see past and don't want to see past the EW logo.
> ...



KEnK, I see where you are coming from and have thought the same initially. However if we allow it in one case we definitely must allow it in more cases, and these requests will come for sure. Also, like Jay I am not sure it would solve the root problem.

Actually I have the same 'problem': Since I started to be a mod here I have been posting way less than before. This comes with a sense of responsibility that makes you consider your words twice and thrice since some bad formulation would not only fall back on yourself personally but on others too (made that experience and learned from it). This is nature of it and I accept it. Whenever it is needed I add 'speaking as a mod' or 'speaking as a forum member' - and that is what I would recommend to Jay too.


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## TheUnfinished (Nov 13, 2015)

I rarely see eye to eye with Jay on any subject, frankly, but I very much understand his decision here.

As someone who joined this forum as a composer, then later became a 'developer', it is a difficult transition. You are constantly wondering what you can and can't say. I've certainly reduced the amount I talk about smaple libraries etc. on here as time's gone by.

However, one thing I would say is this: I don't get all this 'competitor' bullshit. I am friends with a number of synth programmers/sound designers that some might see as my competitors and I don't believe they are any such thing. There's more than enough room for people to make good products and develop loyal customers. Piracy is much more of a threat than other developers.

There are, I admit, one or two developers out there whose approach towards other developers is borderline psychotic, but they are the very few indeed.

And, as is ever the case, the easiest was to circumvent all this bullshit is to just... be nice. We're all far too big for the pram now.


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## Tatu (Nov 13, 2015)

Those who've been around here a while and have brains should notice when it's Jay and when it's 'Jay from EastWest' writing. Anyways: All the best Jay!


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## NYC Composer (Nov 13, 2015)

I visualize a Western...the last scene as the figure recedes through the windblown sagebrush into a lowering sun...a weeping woman, cue the Morricone....

Yes, I can see the horse's ass leaving the scene....

No no no, wait!! Not JAY....the horse he rode in on!! (And subsequently out.)

Gosh. I'm tearing up. It's all so noble, and operatic....

Fare thee well, fair Jay!! Welcome, Perma-Lurker!


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## SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. (Nov 13, 2015)

I'm sorry to hear this. You are fun to banter thoughts with, agreeable and disagreeable thoughts. I was really hoping to see what you thoughts are on that new soap opera, _The Young and the EastWestless_.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 13, 2015)

Heyhey, now you're copping my act.


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## AllanH (Nov 13, 2015)

Hello Jay - I hope you continue to contribute including contributing outside the confines of EWQL. I certainly benefit from your posts and comments.
When people are emotionally engaged, such as you, it's a good thing: it means they care and as such are not simply arguing for the sake of entertainment. I for one appreciate your engagement. I hope you'll continue to share your experience freely.

Allan


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 13, 2015)

Hannes_F said:


> Whenever it is needed I add 'speaking as a mod' or 'speaking as a forum member' - and that is what I would recommend to Jay too.



I have done this a lot as well, but then someone will say, "That doesn't matter because you are an EW rep and therefore it still reflects on EW, even when you say you are speaking only as an individual."

Folks, once again, I very much appreciate all the comments that my non-EW input will be missed but I believe I have made the right decision.


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## SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. (Nov 13, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Folks, once again, I very much appreciate all the comments that my non-EW input will be missed but I believe I have made the right decision.



No you haven't. Let's argue about it for 3 or 4 pages like the good old days. ☺


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 13, 2015)

SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. said:


> No you haven't. Let's argue about it for 3 or 4 pages like the good old days. ☺



LOL!


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## Darthmorphling (Nov 13, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> I have done this a lot as well, but then someone will say, "That doesn't matter because you are an EW rep and therefore it still reflects on EW, even when you say you are speaking only as an individual."
> 
> Folks, once again, I very much appreciate all the comments that my non-EW input will be missed but I believe I have made the right decision.



I do respect your decision, and will miss the occasional disagreements we have had in the past.


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## choc0thrax (Nov 13, 2015)

Great decision.


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## mark.warman (Nov 14, 2015)

I have learned much from your non-EW contributions to this forum over the years and hope you will find ways of sneaking your wider experience and knowledge around the edges of your official presence here!


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## cmillar (Nov 14, 2015)

Damn... you're one of the reasons for actually looking at these Forums once in awhile!

It's great to read the thoughts of somebody who has been around for awhile, is a real musician/composer, knows their history of composition, films, software v.i.'s, etc. etc.

From having bought and read your 'Logic' book several years ago, you've helped me and many others be able to do what we do in our lives! (....sorry...I don't actually use Logic anymore....)

Don't disappear! This forum needs your point of view, because you can see the 'big picture' and don't have your 'blinders' on like many do in this forum.

I don't see any conflict with the 'EW' issue. Too many people here just promote the latest 'flavour of the day' ready-to-play-soundalike pieces of software that just enable them to make yet just another YouTube "listen to me sound like I've actually written this" video.

Let us know how to contact you when needed! Thanks for doing what you do!


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 14, 2015)

When you need to talk to me about EW issues, my EW email address is [email protected].

If you want to discuss non-EW issues with me, of course you _still_ can. Either send me a Pm, or email my personal email, which is [email protected]

I'm not going away nor am I limiting my _private_ participation with those here who value it. I am only limiting my _public_ participation here to EW issues.


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## lpuser (Nov 15, 2015)

Having to read that some people feel disturbed by an avatar and a screen name is somewhat disturbing. I always thought that it should be possible for intelligent beings to distinguish between a personal comment and a company statement - no matter which name or logo anyone chooses. But the fact that it´s obviously not is kinda troubling.


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## Dean (Nov 15, 2015)

Being intelligent and having common sense are two very different things,..just read the thread here 'Grim News in Paris' for an insight. D


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## kitekrazy (Nov 16, 2015)

mark.warman said:


> I have learned much from your non-EW contributions to this forum over the years and hope you will find ways of sneaking your wider experience and knowledge around the edges of your official presence here!



Me too! He doesn't really come of as a salesman for EW. Just try not to take the EW bashing personally. This is usually the place for it. I have seen you on the Cakewalk forum before.


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 16, 2015)

I don't take it personally but I am feeling more light-hearted since I made this decision 5 days ago and I am going to stick with it.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 16, 2015)

Dean said:


> Being intelligent and having common sense are two very different things,..just read the thread here 'Grim News in Paris' for an insight. D


Which one do you think is lacking, Dean?


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## Vastman (Nov 17, 2015)

lpuser said:


> Having to read that some people feel disturbed by an avatar and a screen name is somewhat disturbing. I always thought that it should be possible for intelligent beings to distinguish between a personal comment and a company statement - no matter which name or logo anyone chooses. But the fact that it´s obviously not is kinda troubling.



I totally agree. Unfortunately a few small minded dingleberries think it's their job to crap on people based on their own little idea of how the world should be... In my ideal world it is they that would disappear.

I will miss your insights, Jay... you said much more than those that raised this issue


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## NYC Composer (Nov 17, 2015)

Isn't it sad that no one's world is ideal and we're forced to get along in this flawed one we live in? One where many opinions exist, and some people call othes "Aholes" for theirs ?


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## Vastman (Nov 17, 2015)

I think what is sad is that some people choose to foist their narrow minded views on others rather than just getting along and leaving enough space for everyone to feel comfortable. If such individuals would tend to their own back yard rather than telling others how to act, the world would be a far better place.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 17, 2015)

Sadly, you are posting in a forum. A forum is a mutual back yard. It's hard to control the flow of chatter in a big shared back yard. Someone's always gonna be mad at old Bob who farts dreadfully. Someone else is gonna be mad because Gladys brought the wrong brand of chips. Generally, humor is the best way to deal with the problems in the garden- humor and a little perspective. You know, let Bob be Bob but stay upwind, eat the chips even though they're not your fave. Hey, here's a generic beer- let's be pals!


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## chimuelo (Nov 17, 2015)

Nothing can be as bad as having Trump assault you on Twitter where he has 5 million followers and millions more who read snd dont follow.
We are a small sliver in comparison and far more tolerant but obviously easier to offend.
I think folks should go set up some nearfields and play your music publicly to REAL people or perform live.
If you can handle that having a public breakdown on a forum would be less likely.
A slow motion Goose Down Feather Pillow fight.


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## Hannes_F (Nov 17, 2015)

chimuelo said:


> We are ... far more tolerant but obviously easier to offend.



LOL. Very well put, sir.


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## Dean (Nov 17, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> Which one do you think is lacking, Dean?



Does it matter?,(the ego and one-upmanship gets in the way.)Anyway If people really care about whats going on why dont they get out there and help someone in need/save an animal/donate money or music,write to a politician,make some noise that actually matters? I do. D 

(this comment is NOT aimed at anyone who already does 'something about it'.)


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## Hannes_F (Nov 17, 2015)

Dean, I retracted my previous post.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 17, 2015)

Dean said:


> Does it matter?,(the ego and one-upmanship gets in the way.)Anyway If people really care about whats going on why dont they get out there and help someone in need/save an animal/donate money or music,write to a politician,make some noise that actually matters? I do. D
> 
> (this comment is NOT aimed at anyone who already does 'something about it'.)


How do you know they don't? Personally, I do, but I don't talk about it.


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## chimuelo (Nov 18, 2015)

When asked for another donation to BS 2016 I sent back a reply of why I no longer want to contribute to my 2016 hopeful.
Same goes in being a Band leader.

Take away their money, always gets their attention.
My FOH hasn't missed a mic on/off cue for months now.

BS 2016 replied that they were sorry to see me go.

First time any politician or staffer ever returned a correspondence.

I do feel awful though. My neighbors dog wakes me up at 0500 everyday lately by standing in front of my door and barking.
I gave him the largest creamy peanut butter sandwich you ever saw.
at the end of the day when he usually chases me down the driveway barking like a fiend he just ran after me.
Got out to see him and he was still licking his teeth.
Usually works for a day or so.


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## Hannes_F (Nov 18, 2015)

@chim BS 2016?
Sometimes you are an enigma


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## apessino (Nov 19, 2015)

Hannes_F said:


> @chim BS 2016?
> Sometimes you are an enigma



He means the Bernie Sanders campaign.

Either way, I thought the dog parable was inspiring...


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 25, 2015)

Over two weeks now and I have to say, this was one of the best decisions I have made in recent years. I feel so much less stressed and somehow the forum seems to be surviving without my input on non-EW issues


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## marclawsonmusic (Nov 25, 2015)

Late to the party, but I have appreciated all your contributions over the years, Jay! 

But I do understand your decision... I have seen enough rude posts to understand where you are coming from. All the best, sir.


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## chimuelo (Nov 25, 2015)

I got this wrong, you are staying to chit chat but not about EW stuff?
That's silly. You're the guy for EW or am I reading all of these goodbye threads wrong.

Happy Turkey Day either way Jay and of course all of you other schmucks too.


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 25, 2015)

chimuelo said:


> I got this wrong, you are staying to chit chat but not about EW stuff?
> That's silly. You're the guy for EW or am I reading all of these goodbye threads wrong.
> 
> Happy Turkey Day either way Jay and of course all of you other schmucks too.



Your reading skills need work 
"without my input on non-EW issues"

Happy Thanksgiving to you as well.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 25, 2015)

Hey Marc, ltns. Hope you are doing well.

Do you think rudeness is avoidable on the Internet?


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## Baron Greuner (Nov 26, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Over two weeks now and I have to say, this was one of the best decisions I have made in recent years. I feel so much less stressed and somehow the forum seems to be surviving without my input on non-EW issues



I think that's very pragmatic of you. Yuss!


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## willf_music (Nov 27, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Since the day I took a part time job as the Online Coordinator for EastWest, I have tried to do the job but still participate in all the ways other members do: sharing my knowledge, my experiences, my opinions, helping people not only with EW products and issues but with any other software and hardware When I had something I felt I could contribute. Even politics.
> 
> It isn't working for some people here and now it has reached the point where it isn't working for me either.
> 
> ...



I just joined here because I liked reading your posts. Do as you must as I am a newb but I would be sad to think that I have missed some great insights by a well seasoned professional.

tbh if some people have a problem with you representing EastWest, providing support, experience and interacting as a human does, then f***'em. This is a place of passionate open discussion and some people may have a problem with what you say or who you represent no matter how much you back down.

Let's say you did stop posting using the joined account: Do you really think that people would stop complaining? 
I don't.
So f***'em


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## Jerome Vonhogen (Dec 17, 2015)

I finally got time to read this thread (I've been busy), and here's my suggestion.

Instead of voting for a secondary account, I would like to suggest that, for people like Jay, the forum would allow the use of a double profile picture (two icons next to each other), so everyone knows and remembers that apart from being an individual like everyone else, this particular forum member is also a spokesperson for a developer/company.

In Jay's case, this would be fair to East West, since Jay himself (when he accepted his job for East West) assured us that they didn't want to restrict him in any way when he would give and defend his personal opinions on various topics. Those who have accused East West of having a double agenda are wrong. They just don't realize that Jay was originally hired to help and inform users outside East West's own forum, after it had become clear to them, that their own presence in this forum and their participation in various discussions would trigger all sorts of negative emotions with certain members of the forum from which fights would often start without any prior warning or notice, and without any winner in the end.

I always thought that hiring a forummember to become an ambassador for the company was a honest and smart move by East West. At least the intentions were sincere, because the whole idea was to avoid conflicts as much as possible.

The fact that this plan never worked the way it was intended, cannot be blamed on East West. There were a lot of emotions surrounding East West when Jay accepted the job, just like when East West started their own forum and decided to leave the ancient Northern Sounds forum, following a stream of negative discussions as well as unfair personal attacks.

Maybe we should all be aware of the fact that even emotional debates can have a happy and positive outcome, like when Nick Phoenix and Thomas Bergersen had that epic, legendary fight (almost war!) with each other over the Brass samples they each had recorded for their individual, private projects, which they demonstrated in the forum mentioned above. And look what happened after that legendary battle of giants... 

Jay, you're a great guy, but I understand that you no longer want to pay the (emotional) price for the fact that no one really prepared you for the reality that this kind of job requires a lot more diplomacy and politics than expected, apart from the obvious social skills that are needed to stay calm and reasonable in any debate.

I just hope you will consider a return to the forum as a regular member.

Don't let the terrorists win!
"Je suis Jay!"


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 18, 2015)

Thank you Will and Jerome for the kind words, I very much appreciate them. But as at this point it no longer feels broken to me I don't think I will fix it


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