# I'm thinking of buying Dorico. I have some questions



## Mistro (Sep 9, 2021)

I'm new to composing and been slowly building my arsenal of music software for this purpose. I pretty much have the important music theory basics that really enhanced my music making skills. I'm a user of Reason 11 suite and Cubase 11 pro. The area that I want to learn more is music notation (writing sheet music) and also I always wanted something that can record notes while I play them on my keyboard so I can see what I'm actually doing. I'm very interested to write music for film and to put with my visual art in videos. Dorico seems like a great program for this. I know this is an expensive program but today I can get it at Sweetwater for a good deal ($391 at $11/month) It seems like something I would really love to use. I tried using Sonuscore in the past when I first started learning music theory but never really got far with it because of certain things I wanted to do coudln't be done at the time or i just didn't know what I was doing.

I'm also wondering if should pull the trigger for it now because I know nothing about writing music scores on this level. I see there's elements I can get for a good deal too but my personal preference is to learn with the best/fully featured versions if i can afford it. The main question I have is who is Dorico really for? What are the basic use cases with it and the major advantages it can give for making music scores?


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## Tren (Sep 9, 2021)

You can start with MuseScore for $0.


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## BlackDorito (Sep 9, 2021)

You can also use the Search feature in VI-C to check out numerous other threads that mention Dorico. Or just scroll thru the Notation Speak threads.


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## Tren (Sep 9, 2021)

BlackDorito said:


> You can also use the Search feature in VI-C to check out numerous other threads that mention Dorico. Or just scroll thru the Notation Speak threads.


People here bloviate too much. It's generally better to just ask the question again. Opinions can also change over time


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## wunderflo (Sep 9, 2021)

Hi, I'd suggest to first try the Demo and then start with Elements (you'll need a Steinberg e-licenser, though).

Until you fully discovered it (which will take a while), there sure will be another sale on the full version, so you could still upgrade at a discounted price then.

The limits of the essential version are not that restrictive. From what I recall, it's mainly a limit of 24 tracks (but keep in mind that you don't "waste" tracks on layering strings and the like) and worse sounds. I could be wrong. However, you probably wouldn't want to use it for the final sound/production, anyways. At least I'd use it for a first draft of the score, and then take the midi to a DAW to produce it (choose the right samples, get the timings, articulations, dynamics and sounds right, etc.). Others might first create the piece inside the DAW and then take it to a notation program to create the print version of the score that can be handed out to musicians.

Because I already knew how to read/write notes, I really enjoyed first working with Dorico. I found the limitations of a notation software very inspiring. You can just start to write music, without having to worry about setting up and selecting libraries, mixing, "micro-timings", recording/programming various CCs and all that stuff. You have the basic instruments, a few articulations, basic dynamic options, etc. It makes you really focus on the notes themselves. 

So, I was already about to buy it, but then SHOCK, HORROR! There's no way to directly transfer your score to Cubase. At first I almost couldn't believe it. You have to manually export the midi and import it in Cubase. Doing that messed a few things up (might have been user error). Wasn't an enjoyable process at all. Thus, next time I'll probably simply start in Cubase and skip Dorico. Didn't buy it in the end, and really hope they'll improve the integration of Dorico in Cubase (and vice versa).


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## Duncan Krummel (Sep 9, 2021)

Dorico is in a significantly more feature-rich space than when it was first released, and it is continuing to evolve with each iteration. Steinberg has a pretty consistent and well laid out development plan, and their support is top notch. With that said, it's certainly less developed in certain areas than Sibelius or Finale. For me, that doesn't matter, because I can't stand Sibelius post-6, and I dropped Finale back in 2013.

If you have any questions or concerns about what Dorico may or may not be able to offer you, I'm more than happy to help. For anyone looking for a notation program to start with, my recommendation will - for the foreseeable future - be Dorico. The workflow is in many ways a stark contrast to the competition, so starting elsewhere first isn't the wisest decision if you plan to move to Dorico later. I'd say best bet is to start with what you plan to use and learn it as the tool it is.


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## Gene Pool (Sep 9, 2021)

Mistro said:


> The main question I have is who is Dorico really for? What are the basic use cases with it and the major advantages it can give for making music scores?


Dorico is for professional use (or for serious amateurs/hobbyists), and in some respects it already outclasses Sibelius and Finale, which are also geared towards professional-level use.

Some people who have been using Sibelius or Finale for years now have Dorico and are in the process of learning it but don't yet see it as fully suitable for their purposes, thinking that Dorico still needs another revision or two to fill some holes. But others have already integrated Dorico either partially or fully into their lineup.

Unless Sibelius and/or Finale can pull a rabbit out of a hat, Dorico seems perched to rule the professional notation world pretty soon.

If you're not sure how extensive your needs are going to be you could always get your feet wet with a free or cheap intro notation app; these are scaled down and not suitable for high-level purposes. Then once you outgrow that you could make the switch to Dorico.


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## Tren (Sep 9, 2021)

wunderflo said:


> Hi, I'd suggest to first try the Demo and then start with Elements (you'll need a Steinberg e-licenser, though).
> 
> Until you fully discovered it (which will take a while), there sure will be another sale on the full version, so you could still upgrade at a discounted price then.


This is the only reason I'd buy Elements. If you're sure you're going to move to Pro, then this is a good tactic to employ. If you end up not liking it, you've avoided a much larger investment. It gives you enough time for that "newness luster" to wear off - when your true feelings towards an investment surface. Notation software isn't exactly flying off the shelves. Reselling for a decent price can be difficult - especially with these promotions happening like clockwork.


wunderflo said:


> The limits of the essential version are not that restrictive. From what I recall, it's mainly a limit of 24 tracks (but keep in mind that you don't "waste" tracks on layering strings and the like) and worse sounds. I could be wrong.


12 Players in the Elements Version (2 in SE).

The sounds are bad no matter what version you buy. HALion Symphonic Orchestra is the main thing - sound-wise - that Dorico Pro adds. It sounds bad, these days. You're going to want Note Performer, IMVHO.

I don't think it's even worth building complicated Playback Profiles and Expression Maps for 3rd party libraries, unless they're amazing 3rd party libraries.

The Elements version is also missing *all *the Engrave Page, so any formatting issues you have after Dorico does its Auto-Formatting are generally unfixable. I do have the Elements version, and have had to export things to MusicXML and fix them in MuseScore 3 (and print from there) because they were unfixable in Dorico.


wunderflo said:


> However, you probably wouldn't want to use it for the final sound/production, anyways. At least I'd use it for a first draft of the score, and then take the midi to a DAW to produce it (choose the right samples, get the timings, articulations, dynamics and sounds right, etc.). Others might first create the piece inside the DAW and then take it to a notation program to create the print version of the score that can be handed out to musicians.


Agree. That's why I'd just get Note Performer and use that in the Notation Software.


wunderflo said:


> Because I already knew how to read/write notes, I really enjoyed first working with Dorico. I found the limitations of a notation software very inspiring. You can just start to write music, without having to worry about setting up and selecting libraries, mixing, "micro-timings", recording/programming various CCs and all that stuff. You have the basic instruments, a few articulations, basic dynamic options, etc. It makes you really focus on the notes themselves.


You still do that in Dorico, via Playback Profiles, Expression Maps. It has a lot of DAW features built into it, including a Key Editor, Automation Editor, Articulation Lanes, etc. It's a Notation-Oriented Digital Audio Workstation with Staves instead of Tracks (though even those are there, in the Play Page).

It's like a Cubase with a focus on Notation instead of Audio and MIDI tracks.


wunderflo said:


> So, I was already about to buy it, but then SHOCK, HORROR! There's no way to directly transfer your score to Cubase. At first I almost couldn't believe it.


Steinberg's different product teams function like political parties.


wunderflo said:


> You have to manually export the midi and import it in Cubase.


Export MusicXML. Import the MusicXML into Cubase. That tends to work better for transferring scores from Notation Software into a DAW. MIDI Files are [for me] for DAWs that don't support MusicXML Import.

For Studio One, I just use Notion 6 as I generally am transferring score data that I did on my iPad, anyways.


wunderflo said:


> Doing that messed a few things up (might have been user error). Wasn't an enjoyable process at all. Thus, next time I'll probably simply start in Cubase and skip Dorico. Didn't buy it in the end, and really hope they'll improve the integration of Dorico in Cubase (and vice versa).


Yea, I skipped out on the Pro Version, but getting Elements on sale wasn't so bad. I do like the way Dorico interprets notation during playback, but I don't think any SKU below Pro is worth it.

I'd buy Sibelius' Standard SKU if I were getting in at the $100-150 Tier. It's a more usable package - overall.

Beyond that, I really don't like the workflow in Dorico and I think it goes out of its way to make many basic tasks unintuitive for "reasons."


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## Bollen (Sep 9, 2021)

I personally love it and highly recommend it! I rarely find myself going to Cubase any longer and even then just for mixing/mastering. However, I will note that I've always been mainly a notation guy, so Dorico finally brought the possibility of composing and doing the mockup in the same program!


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## ed buller (Sep 9, 2021)

It's a rare thing that a program changes my life the way DORICO has. Moving to CUBASE from Pro-tools was a big leap that i'm happy with. But i was really content with Sibelius and Noteperformer. But as I knew the team ( vaguely ) i was getting updates and two months ago decided to spend time trying to work in Dorico.

It hasn't been easy...It's a really DEEP piece of software with lots of moving parts. I wants to be two things at once..The definitive computer based bespoke manuscript designer AND a sorta DAW.

But after 8 weeks I have kinda figured it out. I can now compose, directly onto a stave and it will playback ( pretty much as good as cubase ) all my fav orchestral sounds. I have a full triple wind ( each stave goes to a different library BBC, SSW and BERLIN ) The brass is VSL as are the strings. The perc is everybody

Things it can do ....easily . You can play in either with a click ( not the best ) or as Sibelius and pick note lengths. After setting it up ( total ballache but worth it !!) all the articulations and symbols you want ( yes you CAN make your own ) can be used to switch patches.

You can pre-set the dynamic curve of every instrumen you make an expression map for. You can have Dorico switch samples on playback for note values. A slur atomically triggers a legato .

It has automatic Harp pedaling....play in the part and viola ! Diagram or Text...and red notes say you don't understand the harp.

As I have three separate flute staves, if I put the carat where I want to add a note. Hold shift and the down arrow, then again...I can now enter triads and they are spread across three flutes !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Or six horns !

Playback is fantastic ( though if you are serious I strongly !!!! recommend using VSL ensemble for all your plug ins. ) It will print stems.....

This has changed my life. I can now write music the old fashioned way and use my sample collection.

The Dorico team are awesome . There are tons of videos on line . And the forum will yield a very very quick response. I have had Zoom sessions with John Barron and it has helped enormously . I am somewhat surprised that more people aren't using this program TBH but I suspect version 4 will change that.

Some here have commented that it doesn't sound good. It only sounds as good as your samples..period. I have spent a shit load over the last ten years on samples. The samples are importants AS is setting up the expression maps.






this is KEY here you pick what sounds playback when you write the articulations or use the symbols.







This is what takes eons. As you have to manipulate the settings so it sounds good...but trust me it's soooo worth it. I can use ALL the best samples I own on one stave in the Violins !!!!





All these varitions can trigger different samples 


NUTZ
Buy it !...you won't be sorry...and if you need anything i'm here and have bucketloads of templates AND expression maps. Though I urge you to get your hands dirty and try to do things yourself as once you get to grips with it you'll be bulletproof


!

best

ed


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## Bollen (Sep 9, 2021)

ed buller said:


> recommend using VSL ensemble for all your plug ins


I second that! Dorico works ten times faster and more responsive when you have decoupled enabled....


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## Mistro (Sep 9, 2021)

Thanks for all your advice! I'm leaning towards buying it but will wait for the next sale (that is if it's true yesterday was the last day for the latest one). Holidays are coming up so hoping Dorico will join the party. In the mean time, I will take my time and get to know it.

@ed buller Thanks for the detailed response. Your enthusiasm is contagious


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## Delboy (Sep 12, 2021)

Both my sons use Sibelius since years as they complete their music education at Uni but this subscription model for 2 licences has become too expensive (even under educational rates) for probably 1 update per year. They will switch full time to Dorico when they both graduate next year and I will then change their licences to perpetual and they take over paying for any move forward. Dorico 4 is on the horizon so I hear so maybe this will be the demise of Sibelius for our household if they don’t change their attitude on this subscription model. Dorico offers far more so they both tell me and it is perpetual - just hoping upgrade to 4 is either free or discounted for those who have bought 3.5 this year.


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## sinkd (Sep 12, 2021)

Delboy said:


> Both my sons use Sibelius since years as they complete their music education at Uni but this subscription model for 2 licences has become too expensive (even under educational rates) for probably 1 update per year. They will switch full time to Dorico when they both graduate next year and I will then change their licences to perpetual and they take over paying for any move forward. Dorico 4 is on the horizon so I hear so maybe this will be the demise of Sibelius for our household if they don’t change their attitude on this subscription model. Dorico offers far more so they both tell me and it is perpetual - just hoping upgrade to 4 is either free or discounted for those who have bought 3.5 this year.


If I were you, I would get the 3.5 licenses as an EDU cross-grade BEFORE they graduate.


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## andyhy (Sep 12, 2021)

Mistro said:


> I'm new to composing and been slowly building my arsenal of music software for this purpose. I pretty much have the important music theory basics that really enhanced my music making skills. I'm a user of Reason 11 suite and Cubase 11 pro. The area that I want to learn more is music notation (writing sheet music) and also I always wanted something that can record notes while I play them on my keyboard so I can see what I'm actually doing. I'm very interested to write music for film and to put with my visual art in videos. Dorico seems like a great program for this. I know this is an expensive program but today I can get it at Sweetwater for a good deal ($391 at $11/month) It seems like something I would really love to use. I tried using Sonuscore in the past when I first started learning music theory but never really got far with it because of certain things I wanted to do coudln't be done at the time or i just didn't know what I was doing.
> 
> I'm also wondering if should pull the trigger for it now because I know nothing about writing music scores on this level. I see there's elements I can get for a good deal too but my personal preference is to learn with the best/fully featured versions if i can afford it. The main question I have is who is Dorico really for? What are the basic use cases with it and the major advantages it can give for making music scores?


Dorico 3.5 is a free entry level version which would allow you to do most things except engrave (available in Pro version only but not a problem unless you want to change the look of any manuscript you print). Nor is the two player limit going to bother you if you're just learning. In fact Dorico allows you to change the instruments your players (the player(s) or ensemble is added first and then you associate that with an instrument) are using for a piece so you could feature several different instrument performances with each solo player. by allowing them to switch. I believe the pro package is aimed at the professional composer but Dorico Elements 3.5 offers a reasonable compromise in terms of player numbers. Much depends on your ambitions. I recently upgraded to Elements which meets my needs as a hobbyist wanting a change from composing in a DAW and to learn more about music theory. Unlike Cubase, Dorico doesn't require a USB dongle license. Instead you download and install free e-license software. The only thing I would say is read up on how to activate Dorico SE as some people get confused, me included, first time round. Their help support and video tutorials are excellent and I also recommend joining the Dorico user forum as this often provides answers to questions as you learn Dorico. Reaper is my DAW and I've successfully imported midi tracks from that to Dorico. Likewise XML can be imported from any DAW that can export an XML file.

As to the matter of compatibility with Cubase, I think the problem exists in relation to most DAWs, that being when writing in a DAW you can just change an articulation instantly whereas in notation you're dealing with live performers who require directions in your notation to indicate when to play natural, when to play a particular technique and when to stop playing with that technique. The nice thing about Dorico is that it has a midi window in which to adjust samples just like you would in a DAW. Admittedly the features are more limited but every version of Dorico (version 4 soon) is making it more powerful so who knows where that might lead. You also have the choice of whether to use your computer keyboard for entry or your midi keyboard. Steinberg from what I've read prefer to develop Cubase and Dorico independently because of the different priorities of each userbase. Early days for me but I'm sure others with more experience of Dorico will also answer your questions.


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## Delboy (Sep 17, 2021)

sinkd said:


> If I were you, I would get the 3.5 licenses as an EDU cross-grade BEFORE they graduate.


Yep just done that. Thks


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## synergy543 (Nov 16, 2021)

@ ed buller - Thank you for your post! I'm diving into this but have a few questions I haven't found answers for on the Dorico forums or YT videos. Maybe you can help?

• How do you differentiate between two different but similar articulations in the score? For example, if you have two different legatos mapped to different key switches, what do you write in the score to select between the two in the expression map?

• You mention using VE Pro. How are you implementing it and integrating it with Dorico Expression Maps? And caveats to be aware of?


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## ed buller (Nov 16, 2021)

synergy543 said:


> • How do you differentiate between two different but similar articulations in the score? For example, if you have two different legatos mapped to different key switches, what do you write in the score to select between the two in the expression map?


you give them a name. Then link THAT name to a key switch . Now that name can be a one off....just for that sound..or it can be a name you use a lot..like "pizz"...you get to come up with whatever name you want. You don't even have to use a name !...you can have a symbol . Say you have some bad ass ostinato strings you want to be able to use on the celli staff. Create a symbol 'HZ" and then on the expression map page link "HZ" to the sound you want. You can use a key switch or a program change. You can specify the midi Channel too



synergy543 said:


> • You mention using VE Pro. How are you implementing it and integrating it with Dorico Expression Maps? And caveats to be aware of?


None i can think of. It's pretty seamless. 


best

ed


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## synergy543 (Nov 17, 2021)

No rules, hmmm....OK. However, it would be nice to have some standard conventions when it comes to notation and sharing files. For example, as things stand now, if I send you a Dorico file for NotePerformer, those naming conventions have been standardized by Wallander making it easy to share files. You could open my file and hear exactly what I did.

However, in the case of Belin Orchestra by Berklee, there are no standards yet, so if everyone makes their own, sharing files wouldn't be possible without also loading in someone else's expression maps I suppose? Since it's unlikely everyone could come to an agreement on what to call things, it seems it would be helpful if OT or Dorico could provide some common templates we could all fall back upon for the purpose of sharing files.

It seems that in the realm of notation, there may be some advantages in having some common conventions in expression maps. I mean, "y'all have your rights and freedom", but sometimes co-operating with each other can have some powerful advantages. No? I just wonder how this will all play out. It can evolve in our favor or against it.


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## wcreed51 (Nov 18, 2021)

Some sample companies provide Playback Templates for their libraries. VSL is one.


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## youngpokie (Nov 18, 2021)

synergy543 said:


> it would be nice to have some standard conventions when it comes to notation and sharing files


There is one approach, coming from finding a quick and dirty way around Cubase expression maps I suspect (where everything is "attribute" and "Art 1"), which is to give each articulation a unique name. It's fast, it solves the problem of assigning several types of legatos but it's not following the conventional rules of notation, and it's very messy and unprofessional from the engraving standpoint (and file sharing, as you note). 

The other approach is to try to fit these articulations into conventional notation by treating them as subtypes and creating "versions" of the same rule that's triggered by note length or by a hidden symbol. This type of score will look 100 times better but this approach is a ton of work and no guarantee that my interpretation of these versions will be clear to you.

The reason this problem exists is not only because expression maps today are so crude, but also because samples reflect minute performance dimensions, which in many cases have never been necessary to notate because they are so idiomatic to the instrument. So the best solution right now is to always export your expression maps and send them along with the file itself, I think.


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## joebaggan (Nov 18, 2021)

Dorico really dropped the ball on having no Cubase integration ( shocking considering it's the same company!). Since you already have Cubase, I'd hold off on Dorico until they release a version that does Cubase integration. If you want to move back and forth between them ( they each do some things well ), it's a pretty painful workflow currently.


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## Bollen (Nov 18, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> The reason this problem exists is not only because expression maps today are so crude, but also because samples reflect minute performance dimensions, which in many cases have never been necessary to notate because they are so idiomatic to the instrument.


This is my biggest gripe with notation composers, they just don't get it!!! And personally I think it's just laziness, do it manually for god's sake. Software already cuts down like 99% of time composing, put a little effort in and make it perform your music half-decently! Grrrr... ! I remember my first commission, back in the day of pen and paper. Even with my girlfriend at the time helping me, it took 3 months just to make the parts! Everything needed to be proofread one by one against everything else and you only had a piano to make sure they were no voicing errors... Lazy, just lazy....


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## BlackDorito (Nov 18, 2021)

Bollen said:


> do it manually for god's sake. Software already cuts down like 99% of time composing, put a little effort in and make it perform your music half-decently! Grrrr... !


Strong words ... and true. As a result, a score with all the markings needed to control all the minute aspects of a sophisticated VI library can be quite messy in relation to a performance score and all its parts. But it's great to work with high-quality music notation.


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## Bollen (Nov 18, 2021)

BlackDorito said:


> But it's great to work with high-quality music notation


Couldn't agree more! And to be able to have that whilst it plays pretty close to intention is life changing! Hence why it pisses me off when people publish those robotic sounding scores (especially in Dorico), I find it offensive to art form!


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## mekosmowski (Nov 19, 2021)

Are the VSL expression maps useable with Dorico elements?


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## Trensharo (Nov 26, 2021)

Spitfire has some, as well.

And you can always just play back with NotePerformer.

Generally, I treat NotePerformer like an industry standard GM sound set. I don't use better libraries until I bring the stuff into Cubase. In the Notation app I'm focusing on writing music, not performing it.

I'm skipping going from Dorico Elements to Pro (myself coming originally from Notion) because MuseScore 4 will launch with NotePerformer support next month.

I find the UX for it to be a lot more logical than Dorico. But there still isn't a mobile solution that performs as well or sounds as good as Notion for iOS...


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## mekosmowski (Nov 27, 2021)

I thought Musescore 4 decided to delay release for an in-house vst host solution instead of Noteperformer. Did I miss an update?

I like to hear at least the same timbre when I write as when I do final production. Maybe a double reed has an overtone that interferes with something and I use a flute instead. It would be good to know that at the beginning of writing, as ranges may not match perfectly and such.


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## hsindermann (Nov 28, 2021)

mekosmowski said:


> I thought Musescore 4 decided to delay release for an in-house vst host solution instead of Noteperformer. Did I miss an update?
> 
> I like to hear at least the same timbre when I write as when I do final production. Maybe a double reed has an overtone that interferes with something and I use a flute instead. It would be good to know that at the beginning of writing, as ranges may not match perfectly and such.


Yupp. For one the release is only planned for March/April. And they decided against Noteperformer support in the 4.0 release. From one of their recent update posts on their website:



> Some users have been asking whether the initial release of MuseScore 4 will support NotePerformer. Although it is true that we initially intended to support NotePerformer for 4.0, we have instead decided to focus our efforts on our own orchestral playback plugin (codenamed 'MuseSampler') which will be available to download and install for free. We will be releasing more information about this plugin soon. Please note that the MuseSampler will likely not be available until late in beta testing.


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## sundrowned (Nov 28, 2021)

I've jumped to full dorico. Can't wait for musescore 4 any longer and I can see further delays and complications of such a big update.


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## joebaggan (Nov 28, 2021)

Yep, Musescore deciding against using Noteperformer is a big Fail in my book. NP is awesome with Dorico or Sib.


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## sundrowned (Nov 28, 2021)

joebaggan said:


> Yep, Musescore deciding against using Noteperformer is a big Fail in my book. NP is awesome with Dorico or Sib.


Considering musescore and staffpad are now owned by the same company I wouldn't be surprised if the musescore soundset is taken from the staffpad basic library, so it might be decent.


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## joebaggan (Nov 28, 2021)

sundrowned said:


> Considering musescore and staffpad are now owned by the same company I wouldn't be surprised if the musescore soundset is taken from the staffpad basic library, so it might be decent.


Maybe, but it's not just the sample set, it's the AI features of NP that help to make the playback less robotic. Robotic playback from notation software has always been a big problem.


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## milford59 (Nov 28, 2021)

Dorico 4 is due out early next year, I believe - and Cubase 12 not longer after….. I reckon there is a reasonable chance that these 2 upgrades will be able to talk to each other - here‘s hoping, anyway !


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## Trensharo (Nov 28, 2021)

milford59 said:


> Dorico 4 is due out early next year, I believe - and Cubase 12 not longer after….. I reckon there is a reasonable chance that these 2 upgrades will be able to talk to each other - here‘s hoping, anyway !


Nope. There isn't. Go to Steinberg forums and see what they have had to say on this. 

Sorry to kill the excitement, though.


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## youngpokie (Nov 28, 2021)

Trensharo said:


> Go to Steinberg forums and see what they have had to say on this.


This. They can't even make Dorico access the stock Cubase plugins.


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