# The composers who aren't composers



## Guy Rowland (Feb 1, 2013)

Another day, another spin off thread. This is a response to the "minimialsim in TV scores" thread, where the accusation arose (again) that there are armies of folks out there who own (or steal) a few libraries and churn out hundreds of "scores" with them by just pressing one note and bolting loops together. They have no musical aptitude, but have spotted a way to make a fast buck.

It occurred to me that I've never met, or heard of, one person in real life that is anything like that description. That's not to say that they don't exist - just that I don't know anyone like that. Just to be clear - there is already another thread about those who choose not to have formal training, so that's a separate issue. I'm keen to hear the first hand stories about those who really have no interest in music all all, who just use construction kits and one note libraries to successfully get ongoing work and deprive those of us who work hard in our different ways from getting the gig.


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## rayinstirling (Feb 1, 2013)

I think you answer your own question. No one knows non musical people using construction kits. They are being used by musicians who simply provide the service required for the customers needs.


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## Peter Alexander (Feb 2, 2013)

Then you hang with a noble group of people. A chief issue with Gigastudio was lack of copy protection, so there were plenty of shared disks on lots of libraries. 

Plenty of folks traded libraries.

People on this forum, per a Cinesamples post, have been caught bootlegging. 

The thing is, it's just not talked about a lot.

In fact, I'll give you a personal example. A while back I took a seminar in LA where the teacher passed out a DVD of Hans' older library in Roland format - to everyone who attended. 

I have the disk and a Roland unit that could load them. Still in the case. Never used.

QLSO in Kontakt may be the most bootlegged orchestral library of all time. Seriously. It's why they went to PLAY. 

I'm glad for you that you haven't met anyone like that. It speaks to your integrity.

Thank you!


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 2, 2013)

Peter - this thread isn't really about piracy (though I guess it's a side issue). What I'm really talking about are people who aren't interested in the craft of composing at all, who cynically produce scores in the fastest, easiest way possible with no regard to how well it serves picture or any artistic merit. The charge is that some people acquire libraries by fair means or foul simply to make money as easily as possible - using construction kits and pressing one note of a library like Omnisphere their job is done. Allegedly. This is what I was referring to by not personally knowing anyone like this. I got to wondering if these people weren't strawmen - do they really exist? They might very well do, they might be endemic in the industry, and it's just I haven't encountered any.


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## Rob (Feb 2, 2013)

Don't know any myself, they must be hiding in their sanctuaries...


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## Daryl (Feb 2, 2013)

Who's the judge of whether or not someone has musical aptitude?

D


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## Jimbo 88 (Feb 2, 2013)

I'm not sure you can really make it as a composer if you are reliant on the "loop and an atmospheric" composition. It is very hard to make it as a composer and all the steps along the way. you generally have to start out doing industrial promos, commercials low budget films. 

I'm sure there are increasingly situations where guys that had some small music experience (played sax in school or gtr in a band) and are now an Editor's assistant or something slap together a cue(s). But making a decent living.... tends to weed out those type of guys.


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## impressions (Feb 2, 2013)

I know of TV composers who uses drum loops, or pads(!!). Isn't these type of construction kits are for people who don't know music, like non-musicians who uses music software who compose for you, etc..

not sure there are musicians who use it, if they are, they must be on a huge deadline and the client must be dumb as hell.

besides, if there was a way to make a fast buck as a musician i would love to hear about it. i've never heard of anything close to that.


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## nikolas (Feb 2, 2013)

I'm an amazing composer myself! MYYYY credentials say so...

But I'm having a hard time using loops! :D No idea what this means really... But I've come to marvel at some people and the use of certain tools in the trade...


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## musicformedia (Feb 2, 2013)

Here you go, one I spotted recently:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ravxQo2OIws&feature=player_detailpage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ravxQo2O ... detailpage)

Excellent use of Hollywoodwinds loop patches. This composer probably pressed about 7 buttons to write this music I'd imagine


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## impressions (Feb 2, 2013)

And I thought I'm lazy. Regarding how effective it was- it was. So how might be a lazy bum who doesn't care about music but at least he made it appropriate to the picture. He is still very low on my book. Even my 8 year student kids can achieve higher musical prowess.


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## passenger57 (Feb 2, 2013)

> not sure there are musicians who use it, if they are, they must be on a huge deadline


Now I wish I hadn't started that other thread. Nothing can be gained from posting videos criticizing people here. Maybe that guy was a good composer but was told he had a day to do that episode. Maybe he delivered stems and the sound mixer removed his musical elements. Maybe he didn't want to waste his best musical themes on a crappy A&E or cable documentary.. Who knows.
The inspiration for the other thread was my venting about a major network tv show that had extremely minimal scoring which consisted of a pad and a couple pianos. While it was minimal, it worked for the show. Like I said I was just having a bit of a laugh about it because many of us here obsess over such complex arrangements. But I'm sure as hell not going to say what the show was or who the composer is because that would be extremely rude on my part as well as uninformed. Scoring for a real show and a crap documentary are two completely different things. Chances are in the doc the producers are just throwing anything in there, loops - library music whatever...


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## musicformedia (Feb 2, 2013)

I would imagine it was actually licensed music from a place like Jinglepunks rather than music written specifically for the scene


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## sluggo (Feb 2, 2013)

That piece for TLC was most likely not scored but rather from a music library and dropped in by the editor/producer. Hardly any of those shows are scored and if you were scoring that show you would want to kill yourself by episode 4. Trust me on that. 
As for the original post. I can think of only one person who is exactly as described. JJ Abrams. He hit one key on Omnisphere and created the LOST 'theme'. Thankfully he turned everything else over to Michael Giacchino. Any composer scoring a show today is not just hitting a loop and calling it a day. Now maybe in library music there are some lazy dudes. But look at the quality of the shows using library music. Birds of a feather....


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## impressions (Feb 2, 2013)

Besides, even if there was guy who created that, I'm not sure he would get anywhere with loops/pads. If that was indeed library cue purchase.
My guess he was so bored with the content he was immensely happy he didn't have to actual write a score, and found something that would satisfy everyone. That's a big motivation saver, in this line of business, could be crucial if you're doing multiple gigs to sustain yourself.


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## Guy Bacos (Feb 2, 2013)

There are some out there. It's probably not our crowd, but they do exist. I've known one guy, who was famous enough, and in front of me would splice bits of random existing recorded music and make something new of it. It's the kind of thing that disgusted me, although I didn't tell him that, since he was my boss for a certain project many years ago. He also had absolutely no scruple about doing this. Having said that, he may say in his defence that what he does is "Art", and in some ways, it's hard to dispute that since I couldn't do what he does, at least not as good, even though I don't put much value into this imitation craft.

I also remember a story about this virtuoso guitarist who once heard on the radio 4 guitar notes that sounded very familiar to him, it was part of this hip hop song, or some similar genre. The notes had some typical guitar ornamentation on each note and he was able to identify these notes from his playing style. He was in fact right. He ended up suing the artist, who admitted it, and he got something like a million or more for just these 4 notes.


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## passenger57 (Feb 2, 2013)

> There are some out there. It's probably not our crowd, but they do exist. I've known one guy, who was famous enough, and in front of me would splice bits of random existing music and make something new of it.



Sounds like Musique concrète.



> I also remember a story about this virtuoso guitarist who once heard on the radio 4 guitar notes that sounded very familiar to him, it was part of this hip hop song, or some similar genre. The notes had some typical guitar ornamentation on each note and he was able to identify these notes from his playing style. He was in fact right. He ended up suing the artist, who admitted it, and he got something like a million or more for just these 4 notes.


Check out this amazing video on how a 6 second drumloop from a 1969 recording ended up in hundreds of pieces that we still hear to this day....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SaFTm2bcac

Someone posted on youtube the drummer later died homeless... not sure if it's true but if so what a shame


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## Guy Bacos (Feb 2, 2013)

passenger57 @ Sat Feb 02 said:


> > There are some out there. It's probably not our crowd, but they do exist. I've known one guy, who was famous enough, and in front of me would splice bits of random existing music and make something new of it.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like Musique concrète.



Except that all his material had already previous copyrights.


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## passenger57 (Feb 2, 2013)

> Except that all his material had already previous copyrights.



Woah, didn't catch that. What a crazy guy, thats nuts


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 2, 2013)

musicformedia @ Sat Feb 02 said:


> Here you go, one I spotted recently:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ravxQo2OIws&feature=player_detailpage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ravxQo2O ... detailpage)
> 
> Excellent use of Hollywoodwinds loop patches. This composer probably pressed about 7 buttons to write this music I'd imagine



Interesting... the first 2/3rds is pretty much that isn't it, with a few pizzi strings to support. The last section is I think non-loop based. Sadly, the first part works better imo, it's less intrusive.

Well, it's hard to know what to draw from it I guess. As others have said, it's unlikely the show was scored as such.


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## midphase (Feb 2, 2013)

Not going to name any names, but I know a guy who runs a Music Library and who writes a bunch of cues himself using primarily loops and construction kits.

He's not really a musician himself, just a guy who has good sales instincts and has hired a bunch of composers to create tracks for his library (which is fairly successful in the grand scheme of things). 

At some point, he figured that he could "compose" tracks himself by pushing a few buttons in Ableton Live or throwing around some Apple Loops. Although for more complex stuff he still relies on proper composers, for many cues on his library he just cranks stuff out himself. 

Quite honestly, it fits his needs. Reality TV (which consumes a lot of library music) doesn't really need particularly musical stuff. Sometime a drum loop with a simple bass line is all that's needed. Sometimes a long held Omnisphere preset is just what the editor needs to cover 15 seconds of "drama"

I can't blame him and this is not a criticism on his methodology...just a confirmation that there are people who make a pretty decent living doing exactly what the OP was asking.


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 3, 2013)

Kays - yup, that answers it! That said, if there was a perfect position to pull this off, your acquaintance has it. As others have said, it would be hard to make a go of it normally - most libraries would need someone who can, um, compose, and likewise it would be tough to form ongoing relationships with producers if the product was so limited. Not impossible I guess, but tough. But this is the dream job - running a library, so you can squeeze in the simple stuff that will probably work absolutely fine.

Having acknowledged that these people DO exist, I guess the question then moves to "how widespread is it?"


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## TheUnfinished (Feb 3, 2013)

I'm not sure whether this is the same cue or a different cue to the one Emmett posted.

However... I think we know where the inspiration was from.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsf0y4mVipo


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 3, 2013)

Just wait until the bots take over...


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## bluejay (Feb 3, 2013)

Yeah Kays backed up my thoughts on this subject. Not that there are composers doing this but that there are guys who primarily do something else in the media world who can use these tools instead of hiring composers. I've heard this a lot from people working with advertising agencies.


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## rayinstirling (Feb 3, 2013)

Right then, it's happening, what does it mean for the vast majority of composer/sound designers, don't give up your day jobs? Or get one?


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## midphase (Feb 3, 2013)

I just thought of another scenario that I have run into. Sound editors/mixers who at times contribute (even quite extensively) to the score of a film by mostly building drone/atmospheric "music" beds. I know a couple of composers friends of mine who were passed up from scoring a small indie because the sound editor assured the production that he would be able to cover the scoring needs of the film.

Mind you these projects tend to be very low budget, and they have very limited needs from the music. Typically some creepy horror type of indies can work this way.


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## Markus S (Feb 5, 2013)

Well, composers who are not really composers are highly suspect. It's like boats that are not really boats or as I heard from someone, words that are expressed, that are not really words.

Who are you to decide who is a composer and not? I believe as long as you crank out something that some people do consider music (and who are you to decide what is music and what is not?) in any kind of way, then you are a music composer.


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## dgburns (Feb 5, 2013)

midphase @ Sun Feb 03 said:


> I just thought of another scenario that I have run into. Sound editors/mixers who at times contribute (even quite extensively) to the score of a film by mostly building drone/atmospheric "music" beds. I know a couple of composers friends of mine who were passed up from scoring a small indie because the sound editor assured the production that he would be able to cover the scoring needs of the film.
> 
> Mind you these projects tend to be very low budget, and they have very limited needs from the music. Typically some creepy horror type of indies can work this way.



I seriously don't know anymore what the general public like.I usually look over to my wife to get a sense of "jane public's" view.She is a perfect average tv consumer,in that she seems to like what everyone else does.point is,she never likes low budget flicks,and usually the tell tale sign is shitty score,once she has it in her head that a show is crappy,she moves on.Sometimes she is not even aware that the music is pulling the show down,it's more of a "this is crappy,but I don't know why" kinda thing.
maybe there's hope for us after all.


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