# Library Placements for Virtual Orchestra Cues Drying Up?



## waveheavy (Nov 26, 2018)

A certain professional composer in the industry (initials GM is all I'll give), who also runs music school in Britain, basically stated that music libraries are no longer accepting orchestral cues done with virtual instruments. He said the music libraries instead are mostly accepting only orchestra cues performed by a real orchestra.

This seems terribly unrealistic in light of the fact that film composers are expected to do a convincing mock-up using virtual instruments prior to being accepted as music for the film.

You composers who submit orchestral type cues to music libraries, I would especially like to hear your opinions on this matter please.

Dave


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## Daryl (Nov 26, 2018)

This is not true. However, it is true that in some countries the more important clients are becoming increasingly discerning. 

Having said that, in trailer genres, the sound is often very sample based anyway, so I think there is less of a trend there.

However, I don't see why it is an unrealistic policy? If the sync fee is exactly the same, why wouldn't you pick the best sounding track, and if real performances add to making it sound best, then it would seem natural to be able to sell the real stuff more easily.


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## waveheavy (Nov 26, 2018)

Thanks for your reply Daryl,

It does make sense to want the best sounding cue with a real orchestra. But that real orchestra should come at a higher cost to the buyer, whereas the cue done with virtual instruments should cost less. 

For this reason, just as with TV shows with small music budgets that choose scores done with virtual samples because they can't afford a real orchestra, it should still be the same with music libraries. 

Pay more if you want a real orchestra for your TV show theme, or pay less for the virtual sampled version if you're under a small budget. With promoting both types of orchestra cues, the music library is going to gain by selling to both wants.





Daryl said:


> This is not true. However, it is true that in some countries the more important clients are becoming increasingly discerning.
> 
> Having said that, in trailer genres, the sound is often very sample based anyway, so I think there is less of a trend there.
> 
> However, I don't see why it is an unrealistic policy? If the sync fee is exactly the same, why wouldn't you pick the best sounding track, and if real performances add to making it sound best, then it would seem natural to be able to sell the real stuff more easily.


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## Daryl (Nov 26, 2018)

waveheavy said:


> It does make sense to want the best sounding cue with a real orchestra. But that real orchestra should come at a higher cost to the buyer, whereas the cue done with virtual instruments should cost less.


Library music doesn't work like that. The sync fee for a full orchestra recorded at Abbey Road is exactly the same price as a drone "recorded" in your bedroom. MCPS is about usage, not content.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 26, 2018)

waveheavy said:


> A certain professional composer in the industry (initials GM is all I'll give), who also runs music school in Britain, basically stated that music libraries are no longer accepting orchestral cues done with virtual instruments. He said the music libraries instead are mostly accepting only orchestra cues performed by a real orchestra.



I think GM is misinformed, I submit a ton of orchestral tracks to libraries (virtual) and I don't see this changing. Perhaps he's specifically referring to certain libraries? If he were correct, there would be a massive shortage of tracks because of the production costs, etc. I don't know about you, but there's no way I'd ever be able to afford creating tracks with a real orchestra. Plus, could you imagine the logistics with creating the different renditions (60 second, 30 second, etc), with absolute perfect timing? The average "joe" would go bankrupt.


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## Creston (Nov 27, 2018)

Quite simply rubbish.


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## erica-grace (Nov 27, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> I think GM is misinformed




I agree here.

I am not with that many libraries, but the ones I am with - plus I can speak of a few others that other people I know are with - all want stems. Therefore, orchestral cues created with VIs are more in demand than ever.

Maybe there are some specific libraries with specific clients who don't need stems - maybe these demand real orchestras. But over all, and I am not trying to give the impression that I am an industry expert, I and others are seeing the opposite of what GM is claiming.


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## Geoff Grace (Nov 27, 2018)

Unless there’s some kind of data to reference, then you have to treat everyone’s input as anecdotal—including GM’s. 

Best,

Geoff


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## erica-grace (Nov 27, 2018)

No relation ^


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## Geoff Grace (Nov 27, 2018)

erica-grace said:


> No relation ^


True, but I am related to an Erika (with a “K”) Grace. 

There’s also a @dgrace here. Strange that there are three of us here and so few in the real world. 

Best,

Geoff


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## whiskers (Nov 27, 2018)

erica-grace said:


> No relation ^


I had wondered...


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## erica-grace (Nov 27, 2018)

whiskers said:


> I had wondered...



_No you hadn't_


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## erica-grace (Nov 27, 2018)

Geoff Grace said:


> There’s also a @dgrace here. Strange that there are three of us here and so few in the real world.



Well, there is Mark Grace (Chicago Cubs), Nancy Grace (can't stand her), Maggie Grace (Taken, Taken 2), a bunch of other actresses (Sophia, Sarah, Emily, Mary, etc.) 

We are not alone in this world!


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## Daryl (Nov 28, 2018)

erica-grace said:


> I agree here.
> 
> I am not with that many libraries, but the ones I am with - plus I can speak of a few others that other people I know are with - all want stems. Therefore, orchestral cues created with VIs are more in demand than ever.


We record orchestra in stems. That's pretty much how it's done for high end trailer companies (and movies) as well.


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## Geoff Grace (Nov 28, 2018)

erica-grace said:


> Well, there is Mark Grace (Chicago Cubs), Nancy Grace (can't stand her), Maggie Grace (Taken, Taken 2), a bunch of other actresses (Sophia, Sarah, Emily, Mary, etc.)
> 
> We are not alone in this world!


Nice list! 

It may interest you to know that my cousin Erika's brother is Mark Grace, albeit not the famous one.

(Sorry to derail the thread.)

Best,

Geoff


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 28, 2018)

Daryl said:


> We record orchestra in stems



Is it literally recorded in stems? I didn't know this was actually done, good to know. I just wonder how it blends with the other stems once mixed....the players and timing would have to be extremely precise (like within a fraction of a second). Like how would the percussionists know the shots, etc? Do they have in-ear's with a click track?


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## scottbuckley (Nov 28, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Is it literally recorded in stems? I didn't know this was actually done, good to know. I just wonder how it blends with the other stems once mixed....the players and timing would have to be extremely precise (like within a fraction of a second). Like how would the percussionists know the shots, etc? Do they have in-ear's with a click track?



The times I've recorded tracks in chunks as orchestral stems - yes, there was a click track for the players PLUS a conductor. Not sure if this is the case every time, though.


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## JohnG (Nov 28, 2018)

Daryl said:


> The sync fee for a full orchestra recorded at Abbey Road is exactly the same price as a drone "recorded" in your bedroom.



That ^^ is not my experience. The fees for good-quality, full orchestra releases are far higher.



Wolfie2112 said:


> Do they have in-ear's with a click track?



Every time I've recorded in sections, everyone wears either in-ear or headphones and plays to click, including, of course, the conductor. 

So why have a conductor (some ask)? The conductor still has an important role of helping to interpret (quickly) what the composer wants, re-arranging from the stand in some cases, and communication. And cueing in sections as usual.

Keeping the beat is relegated to showing where downbeats are, essentially.


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## gsilbers (Nov 28, 2018)

it might be true for gm. it doesnt mean its true for other libraries. its not mutually exclusive. and thats the main issue with entertainment business in general. everyone living in their own bubble thinking they are right and the other person in the other bubble is wrong.


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## Jonathan Sharp (Nov 28, 2018)

It's very much horses for courses... I work with libraries that are 100% happy with vi's, whereas others treat these tracks as basis for live players. Depends on the library and their budget.


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## Daryl (Nov 28, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Is it literally recorded in stems? I didn't know this was actually done, good to know


Yes.


Wolfie2112 said:


> I just wonder how it blends with the other stems once mixed....the players and timing would have to be extremely precise (like within a fraction of a second). Like how would the percussionists know the shots, etc? Do they have in-ear's with a click track?


Click Track and editing.


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## Daryl (Nov 28, 2018)

JohnG said:


> That ^^ is not my experience. The fees for good-quality, full orchestra releases are far higher.


Yes, but you don't live in the UK, and are therefore not dealt with via MCPS.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 28, 2018)

JohnG said:


> Every time I've recorded in sections, everyone wears either in-ear or headphones and plays to click, including, of course, the conductor.



Very cool, I never realized this. I also see how the conductor would be a critical component for this type of work.


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## JohnG (Nov 28, 2018)

Daryl said:


> Yes, but you don't live in the UK, and are therefore not dealt with via MCPS.



I don't, but the companies I've done work for are very active world-wide. Had you written, "via MCPS," I wouldn't quibble. By contrast, to state that, in general, there is no premium for a full orchestra at Abbey Road vs. a drone is not at all what I've experienced.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Nov 28, 2018)

Not sure if I understand...
There are libraries that (allegedly) only accept submissions that are already recorded live? That would be weird - even though on the other hand it could be a means of filtering out the elite who already had the opportunity of a live recording... but I've never read that as a limitation on a libraries info part about submissions. So, it wouldn't really achieve that. And if you already listen anyway and like the music, even though it's vsts - why would you reject them then?

And - if they reject mockups in general... wtf - I've never heard about a composer who had to go out and record the orchestra via own money. It was always the library that took the mockups and then took care of getting it recorded.
Example:

_(I think someone from this thread is conducting  Have fun guessing haha)_

Even I almost experienced that - but they decided against the recording since they were happy enough with my mockups haha.


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## Daryl (Nov 28, 2018)

JohnG said:


> I don't, but the companies I've done work for are very active world-wide. Had you written, "via MCPS," I wouldn't quibble. By contrast, to state that, in general, there is no premium for a full orchestra at Abbey Road vs. a drone is not at all what I've experienced.


John,. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but it was clearly stated by the OP that the person concerned ran a music school in the UK. I can tell you that cues from music libraries, used via MCPS, pay exactly the same, whether it is at Abbey Road, or a synth drone.


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## erica-grace (Nov 30, 2018)

DarkestShadow said:


> Example:



Yeah, no stems are coming from that!

My understanding is that the library puts forth the money for recording, but may recoup the cost from the composer if the track sells.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Nov 30, 2018)

erica-grace said:


> Yeah, no stems are coming from that!
> 
> My understanding is that the library puts forth the money for recording, but may recoup the cost from the composer if the track sells.


Not sure how many do that, but if so I'd be fine with that. (unless they recoup ALL expenses). Great experience, great for the portfolio too. :D 
Also because they can't do that with all fees. Royalties for instance should directly go to me *afaik* and thus I'd still receive money, even if they recoup some from license fees.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 30, 2018)

JohnG said:


> That ^^ is not my experience. The fees for good-quality, full orchestra releases are far higher.



I don't know about library cues, but I can say that the most money I've ever made per square inch was for a musical sound effect cue using stock Kurzweil K2500 sounds! It was a soap opera promo.


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## clisma (Nov 30, 2018)

Daryl said:


> John,. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but it was clearly stated by the OP that the person concerned ran a music school in the UK. I can tell you that cues from music libraries, used via MCPS, pay exactly the same, whether it is at Abbey Road, or a synth drone.


Are you two maybe talking about backend royalties vs upfront license fee? Unless I have it wrong, it seems to be a misunderstanding...


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## Daryl (Nov 30, 2018)

DarkestShadow said:


> Not sure how many do that, but if so I'd be fine with that. (unless they recoup ALL expenses)



In the UK there are quite a few library companies that operate full recoupment (sometimes recouping more than the album actually cost to make) from the composer's Mechanicals or Sync fees, so it can be years before they get anything except Broadcast Royalties.


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## Daryl (Nov 30, 2018)

clisma said:


> Are you two maybe talking about backend royalties vs upfront license fee? Unless I have it wrong, it seems to be a misunderstanding...


In the UK, for many usages, the production company buys a licence from MCPS, MCPS passes the money on to the Publisher, and the the Publisher pass a share of that to the composer. It's the usage that determines the cost, not the actual music, or the recording.

Then there are the blanket licences to consider. And don't get me started on Neighbouring Rights....!


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## Geoff Grace (Nov 30, 2018)

FWIW, earlier this month a piece from an old library of mine was aired in an NFL game. Far from being recorded with a real orchestra, I used Quantum Leap Brass and other top sample libraries from that time period (early 2000s). If that stuff still makes the cut now, it's hard to see the exclusive demand for live players.

But, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, this is only anecdotal evidence.

Best,

Geoff


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## EvoMediaMusic (Dec 3, 2018)

Just to offer a Music Libraries take on this, we would never expect a composer to approach us with a fully live recorded orchestral track. Through our experiences as writers and colleagues of other libraries in London, we don’t know of any Music Library that would expect such a huge expense to be covered by the composer, especially an expense that is prior to an agreement between said library and a composer. 

My understanding is that most libraries who do record live strings, brass, etc for library albums like to work with VI mockups first (we do), but that a lot of libraries, usually depending on the style, are very happy to release fully sampled orchestral albums (we have done this as well). Like with a lot of things in music, too much emphasis is placed on the process, when actually it is the outcome (the quality of the sounds) that is the most important. 

I can tell you that most clients who will be using the music don’t care whether the strings are live or not, but they can A/B two tracks and tell the difference in quality. If you can crate convincing orchestral tracks, then a lot of libraries will avoid the expense of getting live players involved (as library and composer both want to be earning money as soon as possible). 

So yes some libraries release live orchestral tracks, and yes some libraries are happy to release sampled tracks, but I have never heard of a decent library requesting composers to submit for them with fully recorded albums.


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## Crowe (Dec 3, 2018)

Excuse my obliviousness, but when people talk about libraries I think of the libraries I use to make my compositions.

So what are these libraries you folks seem to be composing *for*?


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## MatFluor (Dec 3, 2018)

Shiirai said:


> Excuse my obliviousness, but when people talk about libraries I think of the libraries I use to make my compositiongs.
> 
> So what are these libraries you folks seem to be composing *for*?



Production Music libraries. It's a bit confusing, but what you mean are Virtual Instruments, which are also often called "libraries" (since they have many sounds in them). A Production music library has many music in them, which they license out to Trailers, TV shows etcetc


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## waveheavy (Sep 25, 2019)

Good info here.

Thanks guys. I'm assigning to GM a 'brain f**t' for what he said.


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