# Hollywood Strings or LA Scoring Strings?



## musicformedia (Mar 31, 2010)

Hi guys,
Just bought the East West Composer's Bundle, and its amazing. Loads of great stuff in there. However, I'm still using Orchestra Gold, and its notò®w   Ëût®w   Ëûu®w   Ëûv®w   Ëûw®x   Ëûz®x   Ëû{®x   Ëû|®x   Ëû}®x   Ëû~®x   Ëû®x   Ëû€®x   Ëû®y   Ëû‚®y   Ëûƒ®y   Ëû„®y   Ëû…®y   Ëû†®y   Ëû‡®y   Ëûˆ®y   Ëû‰®y   ËûŠ®y   Ëû‹®y   ËûŒ®y   Ëû®y   ËûŽ®y   Ëû®y   Ëû®y   Ëû‘®y   Ëû’®y   Ëû“®y   Ëû”®y   Ëû•®y   Ëû–®y   Ëû—®y   Ëû˜®y   Ëû™®y   Ëûš®y   Ëû›®y   Ëûœ®y   Ëû®y   Ëûž®y   ËûŸ®y   Ëû ®y   Ëû¡®


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## Ed (Mar 31, 2010)

I want Hollywood Strings to do a demo like Alex did for CS, that was much more revealing to me than these other demos.


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## JohnG (Mar 31, 2010)

I love LASS, but I can't wait to get HS. HS has a sweetness and "that sounds lovely"-ness that I haven't heard anywhere else.

But what if it's all because they run it through a BBE Sonic Maximizer?


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## Mike Connelly (Mar 31, 2010)

LASS definitely has the advantage of actually shipping now, depending on what your time frame is. Nobody knows when HS will ship and how buggy it will be when it does, at least LASS is a known quantity. And LASS is a huge improvement over the EWQLSO strings, especially having legatos.

If you are having good results with PLAY, your machine might be OK to handle HS when it ships - you may want to do a torture test and load up a bunch of the biggest PLAY patches you can find (especially keyswitch instruments) and see how well PLAY holds up on your system. On PC it's probably better, but on Mac (especially with Logic), it could definitely use a step up in terms of optimization and stability.


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## Hannes_F (Mar 31, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Wed Mar 31 said:


> germancomponist @ Wed Mar 31 said:
> 
> 
> > If you need a library now I would buy LASS. You can`t go wrong with it.
> ...



Perhaps because we love prattling? :mrgreen: o-[][]-o =o o=< 

We need a VI prattle hymn somewhen methinks.


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## midphase (Mar 31, 2010)

Yeah, I think your choice depends heavily on when you need the new strings. As of right now LASS is the only option available (well...actually Cinematic Strings is available too but you didn't mention that as a contender).

They each have their own "sound" so really you should listen to the demos and let them guide you.

As far as reviews, I know that Sound On Sound did a pretty comprehensive review on LASS:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr10/a ... trings.htm


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## germancomponist (Mar 31, 2010)

+1

I am very impressed when I listen to the first demos from East West -HS.


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## Mike Connelly (Mar 31, 2010)

midphase @ Wed Mar 31 said:


> Unfortunately we don't really know that (and personally I doubt an April release). It could be months away if they decided to go back to the drawing board for some stuff.



Good point. Nick P's last estimates were more demos mid February and shipping early March, now we're a month beyond that.

We're at about two and a half months past the original HS ship date, with no date or even estimate in sight. Previous EW releases have been six months late or more (and specific features have been years later than promised in some cases, as well as some promised library updates completely cancelled). And when it finally does ship, who knows how it will actually be - even when demos are great, a library can still have serious bugs and playability issues.

If someone has no timeframe at all then no reason not to wait. But if you are a working composer, you can buy something else in the meantime and use it to make better tracks now. Even if it does ship soon, it may be smart to wait instead of buying it right away, especially if it takes time to work the glitches out, and the price is likely to drop considerably over time.


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## muziksculp (Mar 31, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Wed Mar 31 said:


> muziksculp, do you have LASS or CS?



No, I don't have LASS, or CS, but, As I mentioned in my reply post above, I have not been totally impressed by either LASS, or CS audio demos so far. I know there are many satisfied LASS, and CS users who find them very good for their needs. 

So, I think it is purely a matter of taste, which is a very personal, and subjective matter when it comes to choosing a sample library, especially 'Strings' o/~ . 

EW-HS should be out shortly, unless they have decided to re-do a major portion of the library at this point in time, but, I doubt it. 

IMHO, An April release for EW-HS is not too far fetched of a prediction. If it's not out in April, I will still wait, since I have a feeling that it will be a first-class sounding Strings library, waiting for its official release is my only option to evaluate it against the current available flavors in strings libraries.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 31, 2010)

Re H.S-my guess is EW is still tweaking Play Pro. This is going to be very, very important. Can you imagine the damage to EW if Play Pro went through the same extended improvement cycle as Play did?? There would be blood in the streets! 

This product appears to use enormous resources, and is probably the template for their upcoming work. You can have they best sample set in the world, but if the player software won't allow you to use it efficiently, all bets are off.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 31, 2010)

http://virtualinstrumentsmag.com/m/1.10 ... eview.html

A much better review, of course.


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## muziksculp (Mar 31, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Wed Mar 31 said:


> Re H.S-my guess is EW is still tweaking Play Pro. This is going to be very, very important. Can you imagine the damage to EW if Play Pro went through the same extended improvement cycle as Play did?? There would be blood in the streets!
> 
> This product appears to use enormous resources, and is probably the template for their upcoming work. You can have they best sample set in the world, but if the player software won't allow you to use it efficiently, all bets are off.



As far as I know, EW-HS will be released along side a new PLAY version update. 

PLAY-Pro is still under development, and might take a while until they officially release it, but, I doubt it is the reason EW-HS is delayed for almost three months now. 

My wild guess is they are working on fine tuning, and debugging the next version of PLAY, which will have to offer significant improvements in overall performance, which is surely a very critical factor, in making sure EW-HS is a usable, and very stable to use, mega-strings library on various capable computer systems, running various DAWs. Both for Mac and PC platforms.


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## Mike Connelly (Mar 31, 2010)

muziksculp @ Wed Mar 31 said:


> EW-HS should be out shortly, unless they have decided to re-do a major portion of the library at this point in time, but, I doubt it.
> 
> IMHO, An April release for EW-HS is not too far fetched of a prediction. If it's not out in April, I will still wait, since I have a feeling that it will be a first-class sounding Strings library, waiting for its official release is my only option to evaluate it against the current available flavors in strings libraries.



At this point any release date is just a guess. This is a library with almost a million samples. Just imagine how long it would take to just play through all the patches and give a test listen to make sure every velocity and every sampled interval and every crossfade and every round robin is correct.

Plus a major update to PLAY (the base engine itself, not just PLAY pro) in progress at the same time. Maybe it will get released along with HS, maybe before, but based on comments from EW, it sounds like if HS is ready first, they'd release it without the PLAY update.

As for LASS, I'd recommend finding someone who has it to actually play it (but really that goes for just about any library). I'm much more impressed from actually using it than I was from any of the demos.


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## germancomponist (Mar 31, 2010)

I am sure East West have a joker hidden under their hands, their silence is eerie. o=< 

What do we bet? 

Lets see, I think very soon.


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## stonzthro (Mar 31, 2010)

I ordered Play Pro something like 2 years ago... I trust they're doing their best.

Get LASS - it is really great and HS will come out, but you may have earned a good bit on the interest for that $1600 in a money market by the time it does. 

I'll probably get HS eventually, but LASS is really doing a bang-up job right now.


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## muziksculp (Mar 31, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Wed Mar 31 said:


> As for LASS, I'd recommend finding someone who has it to actually play it (but really that goes for just about any library). I'm much more impressed from actually using it than I was from any of the demos.



Thanks Mike, Yes, I think that's a wise thing to do, in order to accurately evaluate LASS. The audio demos are not very flattering to my ears, well... up to this point. 

I have requested that some additional LASS demos be posted on their official website, especially various Violin articulation. But, so far they have not added more audio demos on their website. Which is not very helpful in evaluating LASS. Maybe they are too busy, or don't feel they need to add more demos, but hearing more LASS demos on their website will surely help them sell it, especially to undecided people like myself. 

Their current LASS audio demos have a bit of an oddness to my ears. It could be the way some scripting is being used, or something else, but the string phrases do not seem to flow smoothly, (they tend to have a kind of abrupt change in dynamics) especially during the decay/de-crescendo of some of the string phrase, which kind of takes away some of the realism, and charm, that is usually heard in real string performances.


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## Mike Connelly (Mar 31, 2010)

While we're waiting for HS, what about integrated word builder? Play pro? Networking for PLAY? Forbidden planet? Will those all even see the light of day, or will they go the way of the promised PLAY updates to Hardcore Bass and Stormdrum 1?


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## JKranz EW (Mar 31, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Wed Mar 31 said:


> While we're waiting for HS, what about integrated word builder? Play pro? Networking for PLAY? Forbidden planet? Will those all even see the light of day, or will they go the way of the promised PLAY updates to Hardcore Bass and Stormdrum 1?



Doug's answered these questions here:

http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/show ... hp?t=27064

A major Play update will precede HS.


-Jonathan


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## Mike Connelly (Mar 31, 2010)

Thanks for the link. We'll still have to see when things actually ship, "soon" isn't very specific and EW isn't known for accurately predicting when things will be done.

I definitely wouldn't make any purchasing decisions based on the assumption of an april release for HS.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 31, 2010)

JKranz EW @ Wed Mar 31 said:


> Mike Connelly @ Wed Mar 31 said:
> 
> 
> > While we're waiting for HS, what about integrated word builder? Play pro? Networking for PLAY? Forbidden planet? Will those all even see the light of day, or will they go the way of the promised PLAY updates to Hardcore Bass and Stormdrum 1?
> ...



And though Play 1.2.5 is lightyears better than the preceding versions, I think releasing the update first is a wise course.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 31, 2010)

BTW- I had Gold for years- did you listen to Platinum? A pretty different beast.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 31, 2010)

BTW- I had Gold for years- did you listen to Platinum? A pretty different beast.


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## dcoscina (Mar 31, 2010)

yeay!


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## artinro (Mar 31, 2010)

Thomas_J @ Wed Mar 31 said:


> Quite the contrary - the response was overwhelmingly positive (Like it or not the Statlers and Waldorfs of VI are not representative of the market  Since the tutorial was released we have finished programming the library and are now waiting for the software development team to iron out some remaining issues. It shouldn't be long now.



Thanks for the update, Thomas. That's good news.


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## noiseboyuk (Mar 31, 2010)

midphase @ Wed Mar 31 said:


> "But, EW-HS will be out soon, hopefully during April."
> 
> Unfortunately we don't really know that (and personally I doubt an April release). It could be months away if they decided to go back to the drawing board for some stuff.
> 
> I honestly feel that they probably didn't get the type of response that they were expecting upon releasing the Quicktime, and they decided to re-evaluate some of the decisions and possibly change course of some of the stuff (like for example go back and record real sordinos). I could be totally off on this one, but the bottom line is that nobody knows as of yet how far the release date is going to be.



I guess Thomas' reply has superceded my own rather less informed one, but I would have been staggered if they went back to record sordinos. I agree that overwhelmingly the response to the demos was positive.

I'd say, very broadly, that people love EWQL's sounds, but have not loved its software. I agree with NYC that it's important that this next Play update is a good and stable one. I think the phrase "one million samples" is the main reason for the delay, but I really hope that having written off all deadlines, the software is getting a really good going over too.

Incidentally, I don't think this is likely, but it would be great if - following the 16-24 bit thread discussion - it were possible to install a 16 bit-only version of the Diamond edition.


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## Christian Marcussen (Apr 1, 2010)

Plus, the idea behind their approach to sordinos makes sense once explained.


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## José Herring (Apr 1, 2010)

midphase @ Wed Mar 31 said:


> "But, EW-HS will be out soon, hopefully during April."
> 
> Unfortunately we don't really know that (and personally I doubt an April release). It could be months away if they decided to go back to the drawing board for some stuff.
> 
> I honestly feel that they probably didn't get the type of response that they were expecting upon releasing the Quicktime, and they decided to re-evaluate some of the decisions and possibly change course of some of the stuff (like for example go back and record real sordinos). I could be totally off on this one, but the bottom line is that nobody knows as of yet how far the release date is going to be.




Nah. Plenty of people are plenty hyped about HS.

EW or TJ more specifically keeps saying that it's a software issue holding up release. My guess would be that the demands of the library place a heavy burden on today's streaming technology. I honestly have doubts that all the patches will be able to be streamed off of standard Harddrives. Perhaps an alternative could be explored using SSD drives. With SSD drives you'd be able to stream data from multiple locations on the drives simultaneously which is what I assume will be needed given the amount of articulations and interval sampling that's in patches like the Monster Legato patch. Standard drives can only pick up data from one spot at a time. Some of the patches in HS I'm sure will create a bottleneck from standard HDs.

This is pure speculation of course.


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## Mike Connelly (Apr 1, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Thu Apr 01 said:


> I'd say, very broadly, that people love EWQL's sounds, but have not loved its software.



Well put. I'd say that for mac users, shipping this without a 64 bit version of the plugin engine is probably a deal breaker. I'd also add that in addition to issues with the software, there seem to be consistency issues with a number of the EW libraries. Overall the sounds are great, but it's a detriment to playability when there are samples that stick out - obvious round robin repeats, velocity layers with abrupt transitions, notes that have way different volume or tone than the ones above and below, etc.

Hopefully this library won't have those issues, but that's something to be found out from customers using the library, no way to tell from demos.



noiseboyuk @ Thu Apr 01 said:


> I think the phrase "one million samples" is the main reason for the delay, but I really hope that having written off all deadlines, the software is getting a really good going over too.



Amen to that. Even if there are no problems with development, assembling and testing a library of this scope is a mammoth undertaking. And I really hope that the software overhaul is as extensive as it sounds.



noiseboyuk @ Thu Apr 01 said:


> Incidentally, I don't think this is likely, but it would be great if - following the 16-24 bit thread discussion - it were possible to install a 16 bit-only version of the Diamond edition.



I'd love to see that in ALL big 24 bit libraries. I wonder if it would be possible for a playback plugin to provide the option to only load 16 bit samples from 24 bit data on disk? Obviously it wouldn't be as good as having 16 bit samples (or it could convert/dither during load but that would slow things down...although the software could always save the 16 bit versions back to disk). But I guess that's getting off topic...

I'd love to see a similar option for only installing some mic positions as well, I have to admit it's hard for me to imagine using more than about two mic positions on a regular basis with any given library.



Christian Marcussen @ Thu Apr 01 said:


> Plus, the idea behind their approach to sordinos makes sense once explained.



It's a clever idea and I could see it potentially working well. But it depends on execution, whether it sounds just like real sordino or not, which hopefully will be easier to tell in more extensive demos. In theory it may be possible to fake legatos without recorded intervals, but in practice, we all know how QLegato turned out. I have to say, I'm less concerned about simulated sordinos than I am about the approach to "divisi".



josejherring @ Thu Apr 01 said:


> Perhaps an alternative could be explored using SSD drives.



EW has updated the HS product page and now recommends using a 512 gig SSD drive. I also noticed that the descriptions of Gold versus Diamond are gone, I wonder if that is just a consequence of taking away the ordering info for now or if the relative features may be getting reconsidered?


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## Mike Connelly (Apr 1, 2010)

Here's the bit from the product page:

PC RECOMMENDED SYSTEM
Intel or AMD Quad-Core 2.66GHz or higher
8GB RAM
512GB SSD (Solid State Drive)
64-bit Windows OS
64-bit Host sequencer
IMPORTANT: Many features, multiple mic positions, etc. can only be reproduced with a recommended system.


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## germancomponist (Apr 1, 2010)

josejherring @ Thu Apr 01 said:


> ...
> edit: :shock:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/OCZ-Technology-Express-Solid-OCZSSDPCIE-ZDP84512G/dp/B002PONRNQ (http://www.amazon.com/OCZ-Technology-Ex ... B002PONRNQ) ...



Oops, only $2,248.97. o/~


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## noiseboyuk (Apr 1, 2010)

Gee, this makes LASS - and the upcoming LASS 2 - all the more attractive...


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## requiem_aeternam7 (Apr 1, 2010)

You're fucking SHITTING me right? 512gb solid state recommended? You realize even a 80gb SSD is like hundreds of dollars? So we have to buy a $3000 drive just to be able to use a 2000$ library? Right...see how many of those you sell. Good luck EWQL.


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## Mike Connelly (Apr 1, 2010)

The SSD thing is all the more reason to allow libraries like this to be modular by allowing users to either put the 24 and 16 bit samples, and different mic positions on multiple drives, or even not install all of them.

500 gigs is a huge library, but much of that size comes from including both 24 and 16 bit and five mic positions. Doing the math, one mic position works out to about 40 gigs in 16 bit or 60 in 24 bit. With a flexible install, you could have two or three mic positions on a 120G ssd (with the other mics on another drive or not installed at all).

With a kontakt based library it seems like you can probably split a library up, but I know the current version of PLAY is finicky when it comes to install paths. Hopefully that's something that will get improved in the updated plugin.


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## José Herring (Apr 1, 2010)

requiem_aeternam7 @ Thu Apr 01 said:


> You're [email protected]#king [email protected]#ting me right? 512gb solid state recommended? You realize even a 80gb SSD is like hundreds of dollars? So we have to buy a $3000 drive just to be able to use a 2000$ library? .......



Yep. It might be worth it though. If everything works as advertised. 

SSD drives won't be this expensive forever that's for sure. Next year we'll be looking at very different prices I'mò¯š   ÌE ¯š   ÌE¯š   ÌE¯š   ÌE¯š   ÌE¯š   ÌE¯š   ÌE¯š   ÌE¯š   ÌE¯š   ÌE	¯š   ÌE
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## requiem_aeternam7 (Apr 1, 2010)

let's be realistic this library must of cost a fortune to produce. 
2ndly let's be realistic and acknowledge that every TOP hollywood composer will be getting this library as a matter of course no matter what it costs.

But will the sales to ONLY the industry's top people cover the immense expense of this library? I'm thinking not. That's why I'm thinking it needs the common Joe and most of us "prosumers" to buy it as well. But that just ain't gonna happen if the library needs a 3000$ drive to even operate. Keep in mind it's already expensive, 1600$ for JUST STRINGS. And you're telling me I'll need another 3000$ there's just no way in hell. For 90% here, PERIOD. 
They better figure out as someone else said how to get it modular so that we can run it without the 24bit (the difference of which to me is negligible and insignificant with 16bit) and the mic positions, etc so that I don't have to load all that insane tonnage that'll fry a regular 7200rpm drive.


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## requiem_aeternam7 (Apr 1, 2010)

Frederick Russ @ Thu Apr 01 said:


> $2k if you shop around. Its an investment to be sure. Would take a bit of planning on several fronts if you really wanted the library working correctly.



I mean I have nothing against EWQL, love them and their products and would love to own HWS and was PLANNING on owning it...but with these recent findings there is just no way and 90% people on this forum would be lying if they said that the difference between HS and LASS is so drastic (in favor of HS) that it warrants a 3000$ drive. It just ain't happening folks! EWQL, get this thing modular or work some magic, for the love of god...


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## requiem_aeternam7 (Apr 1, 2010)

I mean listen I know Thomas J is having a ball out there racing his lamborghinis and probably has a couple of these $3k SSD's just to store porn on, but not all of us are rolling in the green paper. o-[][]-o :mrgreen:


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## José Herring (Apr 1, 2010)

requiem_aeternam7 @ Thu Apr 01 said:


> I mean listen I know Thomas J is having a ball out there racing his lamborghinis and probably has a couple of these $3k SSD's just to store porn on, but not all of us are rolling in the green paper. o-[][]-o :mrgreen:



Ah, don't be hard on TJ. He a Nick had a vision of doing the most comprehensive string library out there and they also priced it low enough so that just about anybody could get it. It's just that their vision kind of overshadowed what's comfortably possible on today's technology, but in 6 months that will change.

So they release it now and only those guys making some decent change can afford it. So what. In a year everybody will be able to get it.

José


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## muziksculp (Apr 1, 2010)

In addition to the high price of EW-HS, there is the requirement to invest into expensive SSD, and a fast computer system, with a healthy amount of RAM (12 or 24 GB). So, the REAL cost of using EW-HS can't be labeled as 'Economical' , but just the opposite  

One thing about EW that I find consistent , and that is, they are usually very generous with posting a large enough number of well crafted audio demos for their products. Which I feel will be very helpful, and important in evaluating EW-HS. Especially given the cost associated to buy EW-HS, and effectively use it. 

I wonder how EW-HS will compare to some of the current high-end, great sounding 'Private' Strings libraries that some composers have been using as their 'exclusive' strings solutions ? Would EW-HS become the go-to Strings Solution for soundtrack/game scoring applications ? 

Given that EW-HS has been in development for a very long time, and the high-caliber, and expertise of the development team. I'm very optimistic that EW-HS will be a huge success for EW. Especially if the PLAY engine gets a huge improvement to run EW-HS very efficiently (this is a no brainer). 

Also, Many Thanks to Thomas for the EW-HS update info. .

Maybe an April release date for EW-HS is still a likely thing, but, if it was delayed to MAY due to PLAY related optimizations, tweaks, and debugging, then it sure is worth the wait. The last thing EW needs is a group of unhappy users, complaining about performance issues, especially after they have invested in the additional system resources to run EW-HS smoothly.


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## germancomponist (Apr 1, 2010)

muziksculp @ Thu Apr 01 said:


> ...
> 
> Maybe an April release date for EW-HS is still a likely thing, but, if it was delayed to MAY due to PLAY related optimizations, tweaks, and debugging, then it sure is worth the wait. The last thing EW-HS needs is a group of unhappy users, complaining about performance issues, especially after they have invested in the additional system resources to run EW-HS smoothly.



+1


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## requiem_aeternam7 (Apr 1, 2010)

Thomas_J @ Thu Apr 01 said:


> Hi, this needs some clarification I think  I know it sounds scary, but these SSD drives are only necessary if you want to run the library without compromise - that is all 5 mic positions in realtime, with the monstrous legato combination patches (slurs, bowchange, portamentos, 5 dynamics of non vib, 5 dynamics of vib, 3 dynamics of molto vib and ALL finger positions in one patch). LASS has one mic position and none of these things. Obviously HS is going to require more power if you want to utilize the full potential of it in realtime. If you only use one mic position, HS is no more demanding than any other string library out there, however. We have also built lite patches so people can run the library on slower computers.
> 
> You'll still be able to use the library just fine with lesser drives. The 512gb drive is only necessary if you want all the mic positions available to you at all times, for simultaneous realtime streaming. You could get an 80gb SSD drive and install your favorite mic position on it if you want, or you could get a 160gb SSD drive and install two. All the demos so far have been done on regular 7200rpm drives, but SSD drives are the future.



But how is it that we can load only 1 mic position, when you load a patch doesn't it automatically load everything? You said there are "lite" patches but what if we want to customize, i.e. what if I want only 1 mic position on my patch but all the legato and vibrato intervals and all that? Or is it basically a choice of the "monster SSD patch" or the "lite barebones patch with nothing on it"?


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## bryla (Apr 1, 2010)

requiem, do you have a PLAY product? I guess it will work similarly: it loads in a default mic position and you can load/unload as you like


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## requiem_aeternam7 (Apr 1, 2010)

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## germancomponist (Apr 1, 2010)

requiem_aeternam7 @ Fri Apr 02 said:


> ...
> 
> Selling 20 full libraries and 100k lite libraries is better than selling 20 libraries TOTAL. That's what will happen as I said in my previous post if this library is deemed to require SSD's for usable performance. Note when I say usable, I mean where we can still get a lot of the articulations and have it sound good. I'm all for what Thomas said about having Lite patches, but I'm not going to spend huge money on something if the ONLY patches I'll be able to use on my very powerful system are crappy ones with very minimal dynamic/vibrato/legato intervals and such.
> Personally I want to be able to have all the legatos, vibratos, dynamics etc but 1. don't need the 24bit junk and 2. don't need all that 5 mic positions nonsense. People do fine everyday with VSL and LASS strings on their single mic positions, all this 5 mic stuff is just hype if you ask me.



Oops,

Very interesting is that you can look into the future. :roll: 

You know exactly how many libs EW will sell? 

SSD`s are the future, and be sure that they will cost much less money in the future. EW didn`t want to built only another string lib, as I am correct, they want to built a never heared library with much much more opportunities than you can buy now on the market. I think this is their goal and I think there is nothing wrong with it. No one forces you to buy this lib.

You are right when you say that people are happy with their single mic position. But, who tells you that they are happy again when they notice that there is a new lib on the market with what their arrangements can sound much better if they use it, with its 5 mic positions?

For example, listen to the Samplemodeling demos, where they show their new solo trombone. I am sure many people are happy with their other libs, but after listening to the new Samplemodeling trombone......?

To be honest, leave the business events to the folks at EW.


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## midphase (Apr 1, 2010)

For what it's worth...I honestly don't care about how many mic positions a library has as long as it sounds good. When I bought Gold, I simply never found a compelling reason to upgrade to Platinum...the Platinum demos to me are not head and shoulders above what the Gold demos sound like.

I think all this talk of SSD etc is pretty useless at this point, the library is not out yet...that is factual. Everything else is just speculation.

When East West has an official release date (for real), actual demos, pricing info, and final system requirement for each version....then we can re-open the discussion, but until then I think it's all quite moot.



PS.

Sorry kiddies...nobody is moving 100k units in the world of sample libraries.


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## germancomponist (Apr 1, 2010)

midphase @ Fri Apr 02 said:


> For what it's worth...I honestly don't care about how many mic positions a library has as long as it sounds good. When I bought Gold, I simply never found a compelling reason to upgrade to Platinum...the Platinum demos to me are not head and shoulders above what the Gold demos sound like.
> 
> I think all this talk of SSD etc is pretty useless at this point, the library is not out yet...that is factual. Everything else is just speculation.
> 
> ...



Exactly what I said here at the first page in this thread. o-[][]-o


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## muziksculp (Apr 1, 2010)

For those of us, who are considering using EW-HS on a slave computer, instead of on their main host DAW, it would be important, and useful to know if any of the EW-HS scripts used in this library, would require syncing to the host's tempo-clock ? 

Since this would not be possible if EW-HS was hosted on a slave PC. Any feedback on this detail from Thomas, or any other member of EW development team would be very helpful.

Thanks.


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## requiem_aeternam7 (Apr 1, 2010)

midphase @ Thu Apr 01 said:


> For what it's worth...I honestly don't care about how many mic positions a library has as long as it sounds good. When I bought Gold, I simply never found a compelling reason to upgrade to Platinum...the Platinum demos to me are not head and shoulders above what the Gold demos sound like.
> 
> I think all this talk of SSD etc is pretty useless at this point, the library is not out yet...that is factual. Everything else is just speculation.
> 
> ...



I disagree, it's not all moot. At least not to everyone (you maybe). The reason being is that there are people out there that want to make informed decisions about purchasing certain products: Let's say I am in need of some strings now and am considering whether to buy LASS or wait for HS...these details are not moot for me as it is important to know whether I will need 5000$ for HS to work or whether I can just get 1000$ LASS and play right out of the box. 

As for the 100k units I could have sworn someone quoted a figure a few weeks ago that EWQL sold 100k+ units of EWQL SO. I could be wrong. I know it sounded unrealistic to me as well but that's what was quoted.


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## bryla (Apr 1, 2010)

I could imagine that EWQL SO over the years have sold 100k. I easily see the first k in Denmark only


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## Udo (Apr 1, 2010)

*About SSD drives*

About SSD drives -

Most of the factors that differentiate SSD drives, both in performance and price, are of no or little relevance when used for sample libraries. The issues for us are - reliability, (random) read speed and the immediatly available capacity (various space reservation schemes are used). 

Write speed, overwrite/re-write performance and delete/trim schemes are the key price differentiators - non are relevant for samples.

Instead of buying ridiculously expensive large SSD drives, buy a couple of smaller ones and put them in a RAID 0 config.


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## Peter Alexander (Apr 1, 2010)

1. EW posted many months ago that they had sold combined, 30,000 units of QLSO. 

2. There is no reason why a program like QLSO Gold, especially with mic position sliders, couldn't conceivably move 100,000 units worldwide. All sample library sales, however, require a delivery system called a sequencer or a notation program. To achieve that number requires training for system integration for each sequencing/notation program and a level of customer service no sample library company is delivering today.

3. The specs for today's systems require at minimum an i7 quad core and, depending on the system and what's on it, a minimum of 8GB, and more is better.

4. You can buy a 286GB SSD for around $749 or so from Newegg.com. A fellow colleague is currently using one drive assigned to LASS and is getting 8 or better instances with each instance handling a polyphony of 250 voices.

5. It is not necessary for most to have the 560GB SSD drive mentioned. However, there are a few dozen composers in Los Angeles, and elsewhere, who would build such an advanced system because the type of production deadlines they work under, justify the expense to have everything loaded and ready to go at a moment's notice. The other 99.5% of users will do just fine with 7200RPM drives.

6. We don't know how many drives/systems the HS installer will allow for installation, so at this point, no one can really speculate on the kind of case needed, hard drive slots, and power supply needs. Since the library is shipping on a single drive, there are a number of installation and set up issues to be addressed. When the library is ready, the issues will no doubt be addressed.

HS and LASS were recorded with two entirely different visions and approaches. As I wrote in Film Music Mag last summer, most professionals are getting both. It's not an either/or choice, it's a both/and choice.

Those who can afford one library only, particularly prosumers, have a number of outstanding choices:

1. Cinematic Strings 1.5
2. Hollywood Strings
3. Hollywood Strings Gold (or whatever the color is for the smaller library)
4. LASS
5. LASS Lite
6. LASS First Chairs
7. Miroslav (new version, regardless of price)

Since choices 2-6 are manufactured in the U.S., European and UK customers will have even better pricing thanks to the exchange rates. 

Cinematic Strings, LASS Lite and First Chairs are all downloadable product, too, thus saving on shipping costs.


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## requiem_aeternam7 (Apr 1, 2010)

*Re: About SSD drives*



Udo @ Thu Apr 01 said:


> About SSD drives -
> 
> Most of the factors that differentiate SSD drives, both in performance and price, are of no or little relevance when used for sample libraries. The issues for us are - reliability, (random) read speed and the immediatly available capacity (various space reservation schemes are used).
> 
> ...



Everyone keeps forgetting to mention that to my knowledge not only are SSD drives astronomically more expensive but they also have a far shorter life span. So not only are you paying 3000$ for a laughable amount of space, according to some sources you are purchasing something that may last only 1 single year. 

Yes for those of you that aren't aware, SSD drives only have a certain number of "writes" they're capable of handling before you can no longer write data to them and as such their lifespan has been estimated by some sources as short as 1 year to maybe 5 years depending on use. 
What a joke! I'll stick to my 7200 3.5".


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## requiem_aeternam7 (Apr 1, 2010)

p.s. just for comparison purposes I have a regular platter hard drive from 1998 that still works fine.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Apr 1, 2010)

> Everyone keeps forgetting to mention that to my knowledge not only are SSD drives astronomically more expensive but they also have a far shorter life span.



Both of those will change with time though.


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## Udo (Apr 1, 2010)

*Re: About SSD drives*



requiem_aeternam7 @ Fri Apr 02 said:


> Everyone keeps forgetting to mention that to my knowledge not only are SSD drives astronomically more expensive but they also have a far shorter life span ........... , SSD drives only have a certain number of "writes" they're capable of handling before you can no longer write data to them .......



That's not relevant when using them for samples, because you'll only be reading.


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## requiem_aeternam7 (Apr 1, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Thu Apr 01 said:


> > Everyone keeps forgetting to mention that to my knowledge not only are SSD drives astronomically more expensive but they also have a far shorter life span.
> 
> 
> 
> Both of those will change with time though.



Yeah but we're not talking about "in time" we're talking about purchasing SSD now (well not RIGHT now but when HWS comes out which is SOON) and by that point SSD's won't be changed THAT dramatically.


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## Jack Weaver (Apr 1, 2010)

Heed Udo's comment.

With a sample drive you only write once. The 'write' spec doesn't matter at all. 

I've had LASS on an SSD pretty much since it came out - no need to overwrite it. 

.


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## requiem_aeternam7 (Apr 1, 2010)

Jack Weaver @ Thu Apr 01 said:


> Heed Udo's comment.
> 
> With a sample drive you only write once. The 'write' spec doesn't matter at all.
> 
> ...



K you guy sgot me there. You have a point.


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## midphase (Apr 1, 2010)

"I disagree, it's not all moot. At least not to everyone (you maybe). The reason being is that there are people out there that want to make informed decisions about purchasing certain products: Let's say I am in need of some strings now and am considering whether to buy LASS or wait for HS...these details are not moot for me as it is important to know whether I will need 5000$ for HS to work or whether I can just get 1000$ LASS and play right out of the box."


But that's the problem R.A...it's really all a bunch of speculation at this point. You're not getting anything to really help you make an informed decision, just a bunch of speculative opinions based on what East West has revealed so far (which ain't much). Truth of the matter is that nobody really knows if you'll need an SDD or not. TJ mentioned that it's what he's using...but his requirements might be completely different than other people.

As I stated before, the only cold hard fact is that LASS and CS are here now, and HS will be released at some point in the future which could be tomorrow or in several months, and my guess is that even Nick, TJ or Doug are not 100% sure when or else they would have announced it already.


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## Jack Weaver (Apr 1, 2010)

I'm pretty much with you on this Kays,

I'm disposed towards putting HS on a regular drive (a Whopping $100 investment) & just see what I really end up needing once I start using it. Everyone's needs and musical vision is different. Perhaps I personally won't need 5 mic positions for a 3-note viola pizzicato phrase _every_ time. :D 

.


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## noiseboyuk (Apr 1, 2010)

It sounds like a huge number of us would be happy with a 16 bit only library. This is, far and away, the biggest bang for buck resource saving that could be made. On the 16bit / 24bit thread I asked 3 times if, given this seemingly widepread view, people thought that the disadvantages of 24bit outweighed the advantages, and I never got one direct reply to this question from anyone. I do find this inexplicable. I hesitate to call 24 bit just smoke and mirrors, but it's not far off. A better way of putting it is that you seem to trade a 0.5% quality increase for a 50% performance decrease. When using a very big library in 2010, I think that's nuts. Sure, I'm sure HS will fly on an iPad in 5 years time, but right now....

My sig is a firmly held conviction! With 24 bit, it's not just "oh, you might as well, it sounds very slightly better", there's always a price to pay either literally or metaphorically. There IS always something more important to worry about. At the risk of hyperbole to make a point, in the case of HS, it's actually using the damn thing.

The problem when deciding what product to buy is that Gold has other restrictions. Of course it has only 1 mic position - personally I could live with stage mics. I accept other mics will make quite a difference, but its a reasonable trade off. However the killer is the lack of sordino or bow-change legato. So I'm forced to buy Diamond if I want the full range of articulations.

It's still not clear if its even possible to install a 16 bit only version of Diamond - I do think this should be an available option. Even better, imho, is a rethink on Gold to reflect the strategy of SO Gold / Platinum - yes, 16 bit, yes, 1 mic, but yes ALL articulations.


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## José Herring (Apr 2, 2010)

I agree with what you're saying Noiseboyuk.

For me it's not a question of 16bit vs. 24bit. Back in the day when computer resources were extremely limited it made sense to make a 16bit version of gold.

I think we're in a slightly different ballgame now. For HS it's a matter of getting a version that would fully work on current computers vs. spending extra money to equip a computer to run the full library.

I don't know about you but I wouldn't pay a penny for a library that I couldn't make full use of. So if it came down to buying the full version of HS without getting the expensive SSD drive and having to limp along with "lite" patches and loading 1 mic position while all mic positions are on my HD or trying to split up mic positions over several HD, I'd really would say "no thank you, I'll wait".

So it makes sense to me for them to release a full version with one mic position that works on current hardware then a full package for ultra high end users and the skip the idea of having "lite" patches and having the user try to figure out what mic position to load up.

For me personally I'm on the cusp. Paying an extra $2000 to make the full library run right might hurt a bit but I would do it. But, having a fully functional 1 mic position library would also make a lot of sense.

It's up to EW of course, but I just can't imagine that the two possibilities that TJ mention would lead to a large number of immediate sales.

It would be like going to buy a car and if you couldn't afford the luxury model the dealer saying, "well we have a lite version of this luxus, but you can only use heating, but not air conditioning. Oh, by the way if you bring in this portable air unit you could plug it in to the cig lighter, but we're not sure if that will work". I'd be like Nah, just give me the Camry. So I'm hoping EW offers us the Luxus or a Camry and not Luxus and Luxus with missing parts.

I know totally stupid analogy. But, I rather have two working products rather than one working product and one patched together with half the library not working.


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## lux (Apr 2, 2010)

I'm not sure I agree about this recurring concept that today size and cpu usages are unrelevant. 

I currently work on a complete orchestration on a single computer and i can only hardly imagine to want to duplicate (or quadruplicate) my machinery problems.

Most of times not many care about 24bit because you finish using the samples buried in a mix with bus and master effects. I personally work perfectly with 16bit libraries.

Same goes for hugely sampled velocities. I still think a reasonable amount of velocities (3-4 at last) is more than enough. Also because the more you need a player to play a same note at several velocities the more the player will be concentrated on the dynamic of the note and not on the expressivity. At least thats my own convinction.


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## EnTaroAdun (Apr 2, 2010)

Peter Alexander @ 2010-04-02 said:


> Those who can afford one library only, particularly prosumers, have a number of outstanding choices:
> 
> 1. Cinematic Strings 1.5
> 2. Hollywood Strings
> ...


8. VSL
9. SONiVOX MI


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## Ashermusic (Apr 2, 2010)

EnTaroAdun @ Fri Apr 02 said:


> Peter Alexander @ 2010-04-02 said:
> 
> 
> > Those who can afford one library only, particularly prosumers, have a number of outstanding choices:
> ...


10. Kirk Hunter Concert Strings II


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## Daniel James (Apr 2, 2010)

Save up get all of them....then you cant lose :D

Dan


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## requiem_aeternam7 (Apr 2, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Thu Apr 01 said:


> It sounds like a huge number of us would be happy with a 16 bit only library. This is, far and away, the biggest bang for buck resource saving that could be made. On the 16bit / 24bit thread I asked 3 times if, given this seemingly widepread view, people thought that the disadvantages of 24bit outweighed the advantages, and I never got one direct reply to this question from anyone. I do find this inexplicable. I hesitate to call 24 bit just smoke and mirrors, but it's not far off. A better way of putting it is that you seem to trade a 0.5% quality increase for a 50% performance decrease. When using a very big library in 2010, I think that's nuts. Sure, I'm sure HS will fly on an iPad in 5 years time, but right now....
> 
> My sig is a firmly held conviction! With 24 bit, it's not just "oh, you might as well, it sounds very slightly better", there's always a price to pay either literally or metaphorically. There IS always something more important to worry about. At the risk of hyperbole to make a point, in the case of HS, it's actually using the damn thing.
> 
> ...



YES for the love of god just give us all the articulations in Gold...that's egregious to withhold that when most people probably won't give a rat's ass about mic positions and 24bit....I just want all my articulations and couldn't care less about the mic positions (hype)


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## Mike Connelly (Apr 2, 2010)

Ben H @ Thu Apr 01 said:


> I remember when people scoffed at the system requirements of VSL GIGA.
> It's how big? It needs how many computers to run?
> 
> Computers got better/faster/cheaper.
> ...



Absolutely true. But if that's the case, then for most users who aren't drowning in piles of cash, doesn't it make sense to wait to buy it and get something with more modest system requirements in the meantime?

This is a discussion of which library to buy. I'd say for many users it's pretty logical to get the one that you can buy today and that will run well on an average system today.



midphase @ Thu Apr 01 said:


> But that's the problem R.A...it's really all a bunch of speculation at this point. You're not getting anything to really help you make an informed decision, just a bunch of speculative opinions based on what East West has revealed so far (which ain't much). Truth of the matter is that nobody really knows if you'll need an SDD or not.



True, but if EW themselves are recommending SSD on the product page, it seems like a good possibility. Anyone who has EWQLSO now has an idea of how taxing it is - while we don't know the specifics of this library, we do have a ballpark idea that it is several times bigger than the string section of EWQLSO and will have proportional system requirements.

Yes, it's all speculation at this point. But for anyone who wants to buy a string library any time soon, all we can do is speculate.



noiseboyuk @ Fri Apr 02 said:


> It sounds like a huge number of us would be happy with a 16 bit only library....



I totally agree. I believe that Platinum includes both 24 and 16 bit versions, but it would be great to have the option of only installing one. And I think multiple mics are overhyped as well - I think it's great to have two mic positions, but generally beyond that is very diminishing returns.

If Gold had everything but was just 16 bit and one mic position, that would be a no brainer for many people. But I'm sure doing that would result in the vast majority of sales being Gold - I can't imagine they'd be happy about going to all that work to have five mic positions and then finding out that most customers don't consider them worth paying for. So the lite version is missing an articulation and sordinos to nudge people to the full version. I can see the reasoning behind it, but it seems like some customers aren't going to be crazy about paying extra for all that sample data if they are only going to use one mic position and one bit depth.

And call me crazy, but I didn't hear much of a difference in the demo with the alternate string/fingering options. I wonder how much size those add to the library?


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## Mike Connelly (Apr 2, 2010)

Here are some raw ballpark estimated numbers for comparison:

HS - about 1 million samples, 500 gigs, 5 mic positions, 16 and 24 bit samples.

100k samples at each mic position (for both 16 and 24)
60 gigs per mic position/24 bit
40 gigs per mic position/16 bit

EWQLSO strings:
51 gigs/39k samples at 24 bit total, 3 mic positions
17 gigs/13k samples at 24 bit per mic position
34 gigs/39k samples at 16 bit total
11 gigs/13k samples at 16 bit total

So HS is about 3.5 times as many gigs, 7.7 times as many samples comparing one mic position

EWQLSO total is 206 gigs, 190k samples
41 gigs/31k samples per mic position at 24 bit

So HS is about 1.5 times as big as all sections of SO and about three times as many samples per mic position.

That's a big library. On the other hand, knowing that one mic position is either 40 or 60 gigs seems like a more workable amount than the half terabyte total.


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## requiem_aeternam7 (Apr 2, 2010)

EW: How about this compromise. Bump up the price of Gold a little bit $$ and let us have 16bit, 1 or 2 mic positions and ALL ARTICULATIONS. I'd be willing to do that.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Apr 2, 2010)

> I don't know about you but I wouldn't pay a penny for a library that I couldn't make full use of. So if it came down to buying the full version of HS without getting the expensive SSD drive and having to limp along with "lite" patches and loading 1 mic position while all mic positions are on my HD or trying to split up mic positions over several HD, I'd really would say "no thank you, I'll wait".



+!

EW really needs to come out with more than just a Gold library to give flexibility to those that don't have a powerhouse to run it.

Still we're speculating as usual, but EW is the one that released the news anyway (way early) so it's to be expected.

The real test will be to see what people can actually use, and whether it will sound anything like the demos. EW makes way professional demos, which can skew most potential customers perspectives on what kind of sound THEY can get.


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## midphase (Apr 2, 2010)

"YES for the love of god just give us all the articulations in Gold...that's egregious to withhold that when most people probably won't give a rat's ass about mic positions and 24bit....I just want all my articulations and couldn't care less about the mic positions (hype)"

So essentially what you're really asking them is to lower the price to fit your needs? Or else what you're asking them is to make their flagship product pretty much useless to all but the most spendy and demanding crowd? And since they probably won't do that, you're also implying that they hate god.


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## requiem_aeternam7 (Apr 2, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Fri Apr 02 said:


> > I don't know about you but I wouldn't pay a penny for a library that I couldn't make full use of. So if it came down to buying the full version of HS without getting the expensive SSD drive and having to limp along with "lite" patches and loading 1 mic position while all mic positions are on my HD or trying to split up mic positions over several HD, I'd really would say "no thank you, I'll wait".
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I too agree with what Jose is saying. I'm not going to buy Diamond full version if I can only limp along on "lite patches". If EWQL wants to match that 30,000 units sold of EWQL then they HAVE to adhere to the demands of the prosumer. Like I said earlier, sure every top employed composer in LA is going to get HWS without thinking twice, but that'll account for maybe 50-100 units sold at the most. The rest they have to convince most of us here to buy. And we're not buying something that's going to either need a $3000 SSD drive or something we can only use crappy lite patches. Give us a Gold version that has ALL articulations (we want bow change legato) but ONLY 16BIT samples, I repeat we do not give 3 rats asses about 24bit nor do most of us care about 5 mic positions or are even able to tell the difference. 
I don't know about you but for the most part once I get a template running I use the same mic position or two and the rest is worthless.


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## midphase (Apr 2, 2010)

"Yes, it's all speculation at this point. But for anyone who wants to buy a string library any time soon, all we can do is speculate. "

B.S. Out of the various choices that have been listed, only 1 is speculation! For anyone who wants to buy a string library any time soon, there are some cold hard facts on all of these:

Cinematic Strings 1.5 
LASS 
Miroslav (new version, regardless of price)
VSL 
SONiVOX MI
Kirk Hunter Concert Strings II


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## givemenoughrope (Apr 2, 2010)

Am I the only one who thinks that the HS video didn't really give a complete picture of what it sounds like? I still don't understand how the divisi works. I still don't know how a divisi sounds in this library. 

I'm finally wrapping my head around how to use LASS and it's great. I still have to get the reverb squared away but I'm thinking that i may just layer in older EWQLSO strings patches if I need that sound.


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## midphase (Apr 2, 2010)

"Give us a Gold version that has ALL articulations (we want bow change legato) but ONLY 16BIT samples, I repeat we do not give 3 rats asses about 24bit nor do most of us care about 5 mic positions or are even able to tell the difference. "

Could you actually just speak for yourself and use "I" instead of "We" and "Us"? I'm not sure "We" agree with "You"


Better yet....start a Poll as see how many of "Us" agree with "You"


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## germancomponist (Apr 2, 2010)

midphase @ Fri Apr 02 said:


> "Yes, it's all speculation at this point. But for anyone who wants to buy a string library any time soon, all we can do is speculate. "
> 
> B.S. Out of the various choices that have been listed, only 1 is speculation! For anyone who wants to buy a string library any time soon, there are some cold hard facts on all of these:
> 
> ...



Oops,

yeterday a friend told me that another company is still working on a new string library, but in silence. They are using a new mic technology.


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## Mike Connelly (Apr 2, 2010)

I'm really curious what was behind the decision to do five mic positions. Were there really customers asking for that, or was it just a case of the devs making their dream library without asking paying customers what they are interested in (or just asking a handful of top hollywood types)?

I can see having two mic positions, or even three in some recording spaces. But is there anyone who would really want five mic positions and expect to use all of them? Hypothetically, if they decided to sell the five positions a la carte, would you spend the money to get all five?


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## noiseboyuk (Apr 2, 2010)

I don't think there's anything surprising about suggesting a full-articulation version of Gold, or that it would be popular. This, after all, is EWQL's own idea, and has (apparently) served them well with Symphonic Orchestra for many years. With SO I think the cost of Platinum was double or possibly more, and for that you got the extra mic positions and 24 bit - and that was it.

Already the proportion of the cost of Gold to top of the range for HS is higher, yet you get (relatively) less. My hunch is that because HS is recorded in a less ambient environment they reaslised early on that there might be less demand for the multi-mic option - hence they had to differentiate in another way.

Actually a poll's not a bad idea - anyone fancy starting it?!

EDIT - Kays, do you think the 24 bit option is a serious draw for people?


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## Mike Connelly (Apr 2, 2010)

midphase @ Fri Apr 02 said:


> B.S. Out of the various choices that have been listed, only 1 is speculation!



That's true. I should have said, for anyone who wants to buy a string library any time soon and is considering HS as one of the options, in regards to HS, all we can do is speculate.

The original topic of this thread is a choice between a shipping library and an unknown quantity with an unknown ship date. Impossible to even discuss without a fair amount of speculation.


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## midphase (Apr 2, 2010)

"Actually a poll's not a bad idea - anyone fancy starting it?!"

Go for it...it's pretty simple to set up.


"EDIT - Kays, do you think the 24 bit option is a serious draw for people?"

I think that it's a definite plus when making a purchasing decision. I know that if something is 24bit (or in the case of LASS both 16 and 24) it wins points right off the bat. 

The way I tend to work is to do my composing and sketching in 16 bit, and do my mixing and output in 24 bit. When you're mixing you can also allow for a larger buffer setting which can offset some of the extra CPU usage. 

I'm one of the people who feel that 24bit does have an audible difference in quality, for lack of a better word, it sounds more "solid" to my ears, everything feels more defined and has more audible detail.


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## noiseboyuk (Apr 2, 2010)

midphase @ Fri Apr 02 said:


> Go for it...it's pretty simple to set up.



Done!


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## NYC Composer (Apr 2, 2010)

Please don't try to suggest marketing or pricing decisions to East West unless you have a marketing degree, lest Jay Asher chastise you. Opinions are like aardvarks, or, er, something like that. Let he who knoweth little keepeth mouth tightly sealed :wink:


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## NYC Composer (Apr 2, 2010)

deleted


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## Douglas R (Apr 2, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Fri Apr 02 said:


> I'm really curious what was behind the decision to do five mic positions. Were there really customers asking for that, or was it just a case of the devs making their dream library without asking paying customers what they are interested in (or just asking a handful of top hollywood types)?
> 
> I can see having two mic positions, or even three in some recording spaces. But is there anyone who would really want five mic positions and expect to use all of them? Hypothetically, if they decided to sell the five positions a la carte, would you spend the money to get all five?




Mike,

I don't work for EW so this is not official but, based on what Nick and company have said, it seems to me that they set out to make the ultimate film/scoring stage string library, as opposed to the concert hall lib they did previously. That being the goal, the best possible choice of engineer was Shawn Murphy. My understanding of the multiple mic positions is that this is Shawn's setup, one that has served the composers he works with to tremendous effect. The multiple positions allow him and the composer to shape the mix in the most effective way to meet the demands and intent of the film and the composer. 

For example, both The Patriot and Angela's Ashes were recorded at Sony with essentially the same players, and yet the end result of those scores is quite different. While the strings in The Patriot sound more distant and "blurred" the strings in Angela are more present and defined. This is the result of the writing but also emphasizing different mic positions in the mix—and the differences in "flavor" are well-matched to the kind of storytelling of each film: epic vs. personal.

Even when I'm recording only 15-20 strings at a small stage like Firehouse my engineer gives me 4 different mic setups: spots, stereo room above the podium, stereo ribbon above podium and stereo wide room. The cumulative effect of these, especially when multi-tracking, is a rich, 3-D sound that would be impossible with only 1 or 2 positions. Plus, it gives the flexibility to bring out lines, or push them back, within a cue. I may not use all 4 positions in every cue, and I don't think the intent with HS is that you would use all 5 in every cue. It's simply that you have the option to shape the mix at your disposal.

I understand the feelings expressed here regarding having to pay for things we don't want or won't use. But I don't believe EW set out to flippantly disregard the wishes of users. Just the opposite in fact—they have created a lib that many of us film composers (including the non-top Hollywood types) have been wishing for for years. It appears they are addressing the needs of those with smaller budgets and older systems by offering a Gold version. If that version isn't quite what users want then it may be beneficial to let them know. 

In any case, I will no doubt be getting the full HS at some point. Probably not when it's released and maybe not even within the first year. I've been making a living just fine with LASS and live players for the better part of a year now and not having HS isn't going to stop that. But HS does look to be a great step forward and I look forward to using it.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Apr 2, 2010)

5 mic positions probably also would allow for excellent surround mixes.


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## germancomponist (Apr 2, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Fri Apr 02 said:


> 5 mic positions probably also would allow for excellent surround mixes.



...and for creating a special sound via mixing them all together. 

I know many people don`t like to read this, but: Ask Hans about this! :mrgreen: o-[][]-o


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## Ashermusic (Apr 2, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Fri Apr 02 said:


> Please don't try to suggest marketing or pricing decisions to East West unless you have a marketing degree, lest Jay Asher chastise you. Opinions are like aardvarks, or, er, something like that. Let he who knoweth little keepeth mouth tightly sealed :wink:



Exactly! I am glad you have come around to my way of thinking Larry :twisted:


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## Crescendo (Apr 2, 2010)

i don't know if this has been covered yet, as i have not read every single entry in this long thread but i would like to throw in that from the perspective of a mac user it is pointless at this time to consider either LASS or HS.

not because of their sonic qualities, which are out of the question, but because of their limited player software. both, kontakt and PLAY are not 64bit. logic's 32bit bridge can do little but constantly crash and third party solutions from bidule over soundflower to jackosx are merely experimental and i would not want to rely on them in a project with a serious deadline.

thus having to switch back to 43bit, this leaves not even 4gb v-mem to work with in the host, which is in light of any new, big sample library, ridiculous.
additionally, most modern computer could potentially process more data than that in terms of speed and harddrive performance.

with the 64bit implementation being obviously such a problem i do not understand why a company like eastwest can offer an alternative route. they could acquire e.g. a technology like it is being used in jackosx and integrate it into PLAY. this just being an idea, but what i want to suggest is essentially to think outside the box!

without this workaround or a real 64bit implementation a product like HS for mac os would make absolutely no sense. hence it is perfectly justified to hold back on a release even though it may be for different primary reasons.

it seems that there are only two libraries out there (please correct me if you have better information) that would work under 64bit on mac os which is kirk hunter (exs version, but this comes with the downside of less scripting due to the outdated exs sampler engine) or it is vienna. their player is already 64bit and works great.

it makes me seriously consider completing the the appassionata string library with them. simply for the fact that i know that it works. sometimes it is more worth to have something that simply works than having the very latest sonic bells and whistles.

btw. a side note to the SSD discussion. i am running a small SSD as boot drive and it was the best hardware upgrade i ever did for that amount of money. i am looking forward to price drops on the larger ones to start outsourcing samples, but in the meantime even just a small one for the boot drive is worthwile all around.


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## Crescendo (Apr 2, 2010)

oh and btw. i agree fully that HS (and i would like this for ANY library) should come in 16bit with all articulation also. and an option to have only one mic position for that.

for the way i compose 16bit samples are completely sufficient, as well as one mic position - however, i like to be able to use any articulation i want.

when the piece is finished, then it is nice to render in 24 bit, play around with mic positions etc. what i want to keep as fluid as possible is the period of composition.


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## Ben H (Apr 2, 2010)

EDIT


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## Nick Phoenix (Apr 2, 2010)

Sorry, I've had my head buried. 

I started using a version of PLAY yesterday that streams better on my Mac than Kontakt 4 does. I compared an EWQLSO sustained patch. But let's just call them equal, so as not to start any arguments. This new version of PLAY will be released to the public soon. The streaming is considerably better than the current public release of PLAY. PLAY also uses less CPU than the current version of PLAY. I am running PLAY on standalone macs and this works very well with our Daemon software which allows the use of more than 4 gb of ram. It is true that inside of logic, you can only load so much before bad things happen. Not so with Cubase, because Cubase is so much more efficient. So I think it's fair to say that this is a Logic 32 bit issue. We will release a 64 bit Mac version sometime this year.

Hollywood Strings is kind of an over the top library. We are making history with this thing. We have created so called "LITE" patches, but they are not lite in the normal sense. They are still chromatic and do not suffer any loss of quality. They are lite because we do things like leave out the choice of string (or neck) position and instead give you the best overall one. They are lite because we leave out round robin on the sustains in the liter ones. They are lite because we give you 6 or 9 way crossfades instead of 16. 

The lite patches are still heavier than any other string patches out there. However, you can load and play an entire LITE string section on one MAC or PC. Hollywood Strings is delayed because we can't release it until PLAY is the most powerful engine out there. We are already there but we ironing the last few small issues. 

Concerning mic positions: I will make tutorials soon with the finished software so you can fully appreciate having the same tools that Sean Murphy has at his disposal when mixing. The close mics mixed with either the mid tree, the deca tree or the surrounds is extremely powerfull and unlike EWQLSO can actually sound exactly like your favorite filmscores.


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## Ashermusic (Apr 2, 2010)

Ben H @ Fri Apr 02 said:


> Crescendo,
> 
> K4 is already 64-bit for MAC.



No, it is NOT.


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## Ashermusic (Apr 2, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Fri Apr 02 said:


> Sorry, I've had my head buried.
> 
> It is true that inside of logic, you can only load so much before bad things happen. Not so with Cubase, because Cubase is so much more efficient. So I think it's fair to say that this is a Logic 32 bit issue. We will release a 64 bit Mac version sometime this year.



Nick, respectfully, as we now have 2 64 bit capable hosts for the Mac, Logic and VE Pro, until you guys release a 64 bit Mac version of Play as far as I am concerned the onus is on East West.


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## Jack Weaver (Apr 2, 2010)

Jay Asher sez (without equivocation)


> No, it is NOT.



For those of you who don't know him personally, Jay _is _actually one of the nicest people you'll ever meet.

.


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## Ben H (Apr 2, 2010)

EDIT


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## artinro (Apr 2, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Fri Apr 02 said:


> Sorry, I've had my head buried.
> 
> I started using a version of PLAY yesterday that streams better on my Mac than Kontakt 4 does.......



Thanks for the comprehensive update, Nick. Really looking forward to HS.


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## Ashermusic (Apr 2, 2010)

Jack Weaver @ Fri Apr 02 said:


> Jay Asher sez (without equivocation)
> 
> 
> > No, it is NOT.
> ...



Hey, all I did was take a factual misstatement and contradict is in the most direct and efficient manner. I cast no aspersions on the knowledge base of the gentleman who wrote it. 

What's not nice about that? :lol:


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## noiseboyuk (Apr 2, 2010)

Thanks for that update Nick. Are you able to comment whether or not overall RAM use is affected in the new version of Play?


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## dcoscina (Apr 3, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Fri Apr 02 said:


> Sorry, I've had my head buried.
> 
> I started using a version of PLAY yesterday that streams better on my Mac than Kontakt 4 does. I compared an EWQLSO sustained patch. But let's just call them equal, so as not to start any arguments. This new version of PLAY will be released to the public soon. The streaming is considerably better than the current public release of PLAY. PLAY also uses less CPU than the current version of PLAY. I am running PLAY on standalone macs and this works very well with our Daemon software which allows the use of more than 4 gb of ram. It is true that inside of logic, you can only load so much before bad things happen. Not so with Cubase, because Cubase is so much more efficient. So I think it's fair to say that this is a Logic 32 bit issue. We will release a 64 bit Mac version sometime this year.
> 
> ...



That's good news about the LITE patches. I wasn't sure my lone Mac Pro 2.66ghz (8 gb RAM) could stand up to HS. I know some people are of the opinion that it's not good to buy anything that doesn't run completely on their existing system but I kinda like a library that will grow as my hardware set up does. Different philosophies- neither one is right mind you. Just different.


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## midphase (Apr 3, 2010)

"i would like to throw in that from the perspective of a mac user it is pointless at this time to consider either LASS or HS. "

What??? LASS is totally useable on a Mac, even in 32 bits. Aside from the fact that the 32bit bridge works, there's no reason why you can't run Logic in 32 bits native for the time being.


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## yujade (Apr 3, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Fri Apr 02 said:


> Sorry, I've had my head buried.
> 
> I started using a version of PLAY yesterday that streams better on my Mac than Kontakt 4 does. I compared an EWQLSO sustained patch. But let's just call them equal, so as not to start any arguments. This new version of PLAY will be released to the public soon. The streaming is considerably better than the current public release of PLAY. PLAY also uses less CPU than the current version of PLAY. I am running PLAY on standalone macs and this works very well with our Daemon software which allows the use of more than 4 gb of ram. It is true that inside of logic, you can only load so much before bad things happen. Not so with Cubase, because Cubase is so much more efficient. So I think it's fair to say that this is a Logic 32 bit issue. We will release a 64 bit Mac version sometime this year.
> 
> ...



I guess the round-robin on the sustains would be the up-down bowing alternation...
Curious about the 16-way crossfade, though, with 5 dynamic layers. That probably somehow includes the vibrato.


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## Crescendo (Apr 3, 2010)

midphase @ Sat Apr 03 said:


> "i would like to throw in that from the perspective of a mac user it is pointless at this time to consider either LASS or HS. "
> 
> What??? LASS is totally useable on a Mac, even in 32 bits. Aside from the fact that the 32bit bridge works, there's no reason why you can't run Logic in 32 bits native for the time being.



by itself it is, but if it is to be part of a complete orchestration, which of course would include other libs. if you run 32bit. it means you have a cap of less than 4gb and you can use only a handful of articulations per instrument, and in most cases significantly less than your hardware would be able to support.

it is of course not a problem of LASS or any library running through a 32bit player, it is the player that has limitations. it seems that native instruments are taking their sweet time to go 64bit, labeling that as "evaluating".


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## muziksculp (Apr 3, 2010)

Maybe slightly off topic. But... 

Being primarily a Mac/LP9 user since version 6, I have decided to temporarily switch to PC/Cubase 5 (64-bit). 

I find the 64-bit transition on the Mac at this time a bit too bumpy of a ride, I also feel that Cubase 5 is a great DAW on both Mac and PC platforms. 

Even Nick Phoenix has mentioned in his earlier post, on this thread, that Cubase 5 is much more efficient than LP9 when it comes to using plug-in instruments. I'm guessing he was referring to Cubase 5 (64-bit) on PC, compared to LP9 on Mac ! 

I would comfortably give the Mac platform another year, to year and a half, to become a more mature 64-bit working environment, especially when dealing with some of the large memory hungry sample libraries. On the other hand, the PC/Windows 7 (64-bit)/Cubase 5 (64-bit) platform is imho, very stable, efficient, and quite mature enough, making it a more suitable system when compared to LP9/OSX-SL. 

It is quite overwhelming to read all the complaints, workaround, and headaches LP9 users are experiencing when using some of the more heavyweight sample libraries.

Once PLAY, and Kontakt 4, and other virtual instruments, become true 64-bit for Mac OSX-SL. in addition to various popular plug-ins, and instruments, the Mac platform will then be more mature, stable, and efficiò°ã   Ì¡°ã   Ì¡°ã   Ì¡	°ã   Ì¡
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## germancomponist (Apr 3, 2010)

muziksculp @ Sat Apr 03 said:


> ....
> 
> Even Nick Phoenix has mentioned in his earlier post, on this thread, that Cubase 5 is much more efficient than LP9 when it comes to using plug-in instruments. I'm guessing he was referring to Cubase 5 (64-bit) on PC, compared to LP9 on Mac ! .....
> 
> ...



Yeah, PC`s are getting more and more interesting for us. o=<


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## midphase (Apr 3, 2010)

"by itself it is, but if it is to be part of a complete orchestration, which of course would include other libs. if you run 32bit. it means you have a cap of less than 4gb and you can use only a handful of articulations per instrument, and in most cases significantly less than your hardware would be able to support. 

it is of course not a problem of LASS or any library running through a 32bit player, it is the player that has limitations. it seems that native instruments are taking their sweet time to go 64bit, labeling that as "evaluating"."



Hmmm....ok....any of you guys heard of this little thing called the Kontakt Memory Server? It totally overcomes the 4gb limit in much the same way VE Pro does.


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## SvK (Apr 3, 2010)

I just do not understand the holdup on PLAY update.

1) Go to ANY major game company

2) Hire their Audio Programmer to redo PLAY

3) Problem solved

whats the big deal? All we are talking about is a freakin' sample player. Christ's sakes, reverse engineer Vienna's.

For C++ programmers this ain't rocket science. It's basic sh#t for them.

SvK


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## Nick Phoenix (Apr 3, 2010)

We have 8 guys and it is rocket science at times. The PLAY update is based on PLAY PRO which is actually a huge expansion of PLAY. In order to run Hollywood Strings and Forbidden Planet, much of PLAY had to be expanded. Once we added all the new features we had to address performance issues and make a bigger more complicated software run like a smaller lighter software. Then you have to make it all work in all formats. So there it is. Almost there.


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## JohnG (Apr 3, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ 3rd April 2010 said:


> make a bigger more complicated software run like a smaller lighter software



that sounds like an excellent objective.


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## Udo (Apr 3, 2010)

SvK @ Sun Apr 04 said:


> For C++ programmers this ain't rocket science. It's basic sh#t for them.
> SvK


Unfortunately, there's a lot of "dead wood" among "professional" programmers.


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## noiseboyuk (Apr 4, 2010)

SvK - I'm not sure that was one of VI Control's most constructive posts. I don't think many of us assume that everyone working at EWQL is an idiot, and that all that's required is for someone from a different field to ride in on a white horse and solve all the problems before lunchtime.

What's clear (not only from EWQL but from other devs too) is that every single host - and any VERSION of a host - can potentially trip things up. Or another plugin can conflict. EWQL have said for some time that they are doing a lot of major rewiting for these releases, so the potential for problems is enormous.

Nick - I beg you - please take even longer if needs be before releasing the new Play! 1.2.5 is essentially stable. We all have things we'd like to see improved, but the bottom line for the vast majority of us it works. So road test the new version to destruction and good luck with your noble quest!


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## Ashermusic (Apr 4, 2010)

midphase @ Sat Apr 03 said:


> Hmmm....ok....any of you guys heard of this little thing called the Kontakt Memory Server? It totally overcomes the 4gb limit in much the same way VE Pro does.



Not quite Kays. While the RAM the samples uses is outside the Logic 32 bit load, the instances of the plug-in themselves draw from it.


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## midphase (Apr 4, 2010)

Yes Jay...but the point is that the samples are the biggest memory hog and KMS overcomes that major limitation...and it's certainly no reason to declare using LASS on a Mac "pointless"


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## Stephen Baysted (Apr 4, 2010)

SvK @ Sun Apr 04 said:


> I just do not understand the holdup on PLAY update.
> 
> 1) Go to ANY major game company
> 
> ...



Don't try to steal my audio coders; they're far too busy atm :mrgreen:


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## Ashermusic (Apr 4, 2010)

midphase @ Sun Apr 04 said:


> Yes Jay...but the point is that the samples are the biggest memory hog and KMS overcomes that major limitation...and it's certainly no reason to declare using LASS on a Mac "pointless"



Agreed, but "totally overcome" is simply factually inaccurate.


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## gsilbers (Apr 4, 2010)

SvK @ Sat Apr 03 said:


> I just do not understand the holdup on PLAY update.
> 
> 1) Go to ANY major game company
> 
> ...




one minor problem... $$$$

why would a programmer get paid in peanuts for doing a sampler player when he can get paid the big bucks for other stuff? 
there is not much $$$ in audio programs except for a few player and thats not only because of demand but also piracy. 
also, the fact that even if its code it takes a different level of programming to do audio/music specific programs.

with that said, i agree with you, play its expensive for us who buy it and it should work as describe on their marketing material and stable.


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## gsilbers (Apr 4, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sun Apr 04 said:


> midphase @ Sun Apr 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes Jay...but the point is that the samples are the biggest memory hog and KMS overcomes that major limitation...and it's certainly no reason to declare using LASS on a Mac "pointless"
> ...



yep, ive run into problems with omniphere in server mode and kontakt with kms. each plugin instance takes a big chunk of memory for the plugin itself without counting the samples loaded in memory which occurs outside the daws assigned space. 

just waiting for apple to fix the export audio to movie in 64 bit and transfer over to all 64. and the bit bridge to be more stable. 
i still want LASS/play to be outside logic and in my template in bidule just so i can switch project and not wait for each cue to load that can take a loooooot of f'ing time.


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## JohnG (Apr 4, 2010)

gsilbers @ 4th April 2010 said:


> i still want LASS/play to be outside logic and in my template in bidule just so i can switch project and not wait for each cue to load that can take a loooooot of f'ing time.



Yes -- I finally figured out a hardware loopback and it's heaven. You load up a lot of strings or what have you in Bidule and when you switch cues, it's all there.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 4, 2010)

I want to reiterate what Kays is saying (the point he's making, not the color of subatomic errors between the literal words): you can indeed totally run the holy living sh out of LASS along with lots of other libraries on a Mac TODAY - and I'm including other Play libraries that are out, VSL, and lots of other stuff. It's no problem accessing all the RAM you want and then some as long as you divvy it up the right way (between Logic, VE Pro, Bidule, and even stand-alone versions if you want).

Yes: RAM, horsepower, and streaming are still finite resources. But I just don't understand the comment that there's no point in considering LASS or HS on a Mac. Lots of people are running LASS and all kinds of stuff.

What I do agree with Mr. or Ms. Crescendo about is the stability of the 32-bit AU frigger, at least on my machine. It has a habit of crashing at random times.


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## dcoscina (Apr 5, 2010)

I have been meaning to get back into LASS again since the score I'm currently working on has no strings and I miss working with it.


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## Mike Connelly (Apr 5, 2010)

Crescendo @ Fri Apr 02 said:


> i don't know if this has been covered yet, as i have not read every single entry in this long thread but i would like to throw in that from the perspective of a mac user it is pointless at this time to consider either LASS or HS.
> 
> not because of their sonic qualities, which are out of the question, but because of their limited player software. both, kontakt and PLAY are not 64bit. logic's 32bit bridge can do little but constantly crash and third party solutions from bidule over soundflower to jackosx are merely experimental and i would not want to rely on them in a project with a serious deadline.



Good point about 64 bit on mac, although I have been able to use both Kontakt and PLAY to some degree running Logic in 64 bit. On my system I am able to load up LASS with four layers of divisi on each section, legato and staccato. Both plugins get pretty fragile with big sessions, but I'm able to get work done. With the current version of PLAY, the feature of loading more than 4 gigs of samples doesn't work with Logic 9.x (Kontakt does it great), hopefully that will be fixed in the new version of PLAY that Nick mentions (64 bit or not). By the way, it's nice to see someone from EW finally admit that there is a problem using it with Logic after the months of denials I have seen from the message board and tech support.



Crescendo @ Sat Apr 03 said:


> if you run 32bit. it means you have a cap of less than 4gb and you can use only a handful of articulations per instrument, and in most cases significantly less than your hardware would be able to support.



While that's true in general, Kontakt has an external memory server which allows using more than 4 gigs of ram. Testing it out, I was able to use almost all the 12 gigs of ram on my mac. There are some issues with occasional audio glitching and stability, especially with really big sessions and when using the 64/32 bit bridge (necessary for some other plugins). In my case I need Kontakt 64 more for compatibility and stability than for the extra ram.

I can understand the appeal of switching to PC, but assuming that both Kontakt and PLAY are 64 bit within the next few months, I feel like it's less hassle to tough it out for a bit than switching OS's and apps.



noiseboyuk @ Sun Apr 04 said:


> Nick - I beg you - please take even longer if needs be before releasing the new Play! 1.2.5 is essentially stable. We all have things we'd like to see improved, but the bottom line for the vast majority of us it works. So road test the new version to destruction and good luck with your noble quest!



Actually, I'd much rather see the release of public betas. Just make sure they are clearly marked as betas and recommend that users use 1.2.5 unless they are willing to take the risk of using a version in progress. Some users are having a stable experience, others are having issues - there's no reason that both groups can't be addressed.



Ashermusic @ Sun Apr 04 said:


> Agreed, but "totally overcome" is simply factually inaccurate.



While it's true that it's not "totally" overcome, the ceiling is much higher and I'd be surprised if many users are running into it - I had to load up hundreds of Kontakt instruments in a test session to max out the 12 gigs on my mac. It seems like it would be hard to hit that limit using LASS, even loading every possible articulation of the library. And that's without even having to mess with Bidule or other external hosts.


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## Peter Alexander (Apr 5, 2010)

> By the way, it's nice to see someone from EW finally admit that there is a problem using it with Logic after the months of denials I have seen from the message board and tech support.



I'm not sure I really understand this critique. Logic is designed so that a sample player, be it Kontakt or PLAY, has one articulation per instance ala the EXS24 design. 

The 32bit limitation first belongs to Logic. However, from the beginning, PLAY could be run in stand alone and access more than 4GB of RAM on a system.Here's a tutorial, posted in August 2009, from Sonic Control.TV demonstrating how to set it up this way:
http://soniccontrol.tv/2009/08/22/play-in-standalone-with-logic/ (http://soniccontrol.tv/2009/08/22/play- ... ith-logic/)

A similar issue exists with Kontakt. To get the most out of it in Logic, it too, must be run in stand alone. Here's an article from April 2009.
http://www.professionalorchestration.co ... nce-today/

So, Mike, what is the problem you're saying that EW hasn't been admitting re: Logic?


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## Mike Connelly (Apr 5, 2010)

Peter Alexander @ Mon Apr 05 said:


> The 32bit limitation first belongs to Logic. However, from the beginning, PLAY could be run in stand alone and access more than 4GB of RAM on a system.



PLAY is supposed to be able to load more than 4 gigs even when used as a plugin, using an external memory server. It worked with earlier versions of Logic but was broken with version 9. EW tech support (and some posts on EW's board) insisted that it still worked just fine - I had to wonder if they even tried that out since when I asked them if they did, I never got an answer. It was pretty annoying to keep reading "64 bit isn't necessary, you can get unlimited ram use without it!" when that obviously wasn't the case.

Kontakt does a similar thing, but in their case the feature works as advertised.

And Logic works with multis, it's a bit cumbersome but you definitely can use more than one instrument per instance.


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## synthetic (Apr 5, 2010)

Peter Alexander @ Mon Apr 05 said:


> I'm not sure I really understand this critique. Logic is designed so that a sample player, be it Kontakt or PLAY, has one articulation per instance ala the EXS24 design.



No, you can make a multitimbral instrument in Logic. You just check a box when you make a new instrument. 



> The 32bit limitation first belongs to Logic.



No, Logic is 64-bit. 



> However, from the beginning, PLAY could be run in stand alone and access more than 4GB of RAM on a system. A similar issue exists with Kontakt. To get the most out of it in Logic, it too, must be run in stand alone. Here's an article from April 2009. So, Mike, what is the problem you're saying that EW hasn't been admitting re: Logic?



Not sure what version you're running, but multitimbral instruments have been simple to create since Logic 8, and were possible in previous versions by creating a multichannel instrument in the environment. 

Are you suggesting that PLAY has better performance than Kontakt? That would be surprising to a lot of us.


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## Peter Alexander (Apr 5, 2010)

@Synthetic - I'm on Logic 8.02 hence the source of my comments.

Yes, I'm aware you can setup a multitimbral instrument and I know how to do it. Thanks.


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## Mike Connelly (Apr 6, 2010)

And while PLAY is getting a major overhaul, could you please make sure it supports 16 stereo outputs for multis (since it handles 16 midi channels) instead of the current nine (?).


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## muziksculp (Apr 6, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Tue Apr 06 said:


> And while PLAY is getting a major overhaul, could you please make sure it supports 16 stereo outputs for multis (since it handles 16 midi channels) instead of the current nine (?).



+1

I second that request ! This would also allow me to use PLAY in standalone next to Cubase 5 or LP9 on my Mac, and be able to use the Apogee Symphony (V-Bus) to route PLAY outputs to Cubase 5/LP9. Currently PLAY in standalone won't work with V-Bus due to the limited number of PLAY outputs. Although I think a minimum of 32 outputs are required for V-Bus to work with a standalone application. So, if possible, PLAY with 32 outputs.


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## musicformedia (Apr 7, 2010)

Yikes, a lot of replies since I posted this lol 

Thanks for all the replies guys. It seems I opened a can of worms here lol 

I'm liking the looks of Cinematic Strings now that I look at it


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## Mike Connelly (Apr 9, 2010)

On the EW forum page about the PLAY 2.0 beta test, Doug said that if the test goes well, they think they can have HS out this month. Will be interesting to see if that happens.


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## stevenson-again (Apr 9, 2010)

> i don't know if this has been covered yet, as i have not read every single entry in this long thread but i would like to throw in that from the perspective of a mac user it is pointless at this time to consider either LASS or HS.
> 
> not because of their sonic qualities, which are out of the question, but because of their limited player software. both, kontakt and PLAY are not 64bit. logic's 32bit bridge can do little but constantly crash and third party solutions from bidule over soundflower to jackosx are merely experimental and i would not want to rely on them in a project with a serious deadline.



spotted this but could not leave it unchallenged. it's absolute nonsense. i have been using 32bit logic and LASS on one machine very happily indeed working to very 'serious deadlines', loading fairly extensive templates, with all articualtions at my disposal in all sections, including wind and brass.

i use plogue bidule and it has been very stable and practical when used with logic. it's a great solution.


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## artsoundz (Apr 9, 2010)

Using Bidule with Digital performer has been a lifesaver. Nary a problem.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Apr 9, 2010)

> spotted this but could not leave it unchallenged. it's absolute nonsense. i have been using 32bit logic and LASS on one machine very happily indeed working to very 'serious deadlines', loading fairly extensive templates, with all articualtions at my disposal in all sections, including wind and brass.



Seconded. I can load about 10 gigs into K4 for Mac, using OSX SL, and using Logic 8 (not 9) not using LASS though, but rather CS and a few other K4 libs.

It's even better with the Vienna Instruments update now too. I can load multiple instances past the memory limit without having to use a big VE template.

I didn't get 9 just yet due to well...cash flow. But I use 8 and it works fine.


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## Crescendo (Apr 11, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Fri Apr 09 said:


> spotted this but could not leave it unchallenged. it's absolute nonsense. i have been using 32bit logic and LASS on one machine very happily indeed working to very 'serious deadlines', loading fairly extensive templates, with all articualtions at my disposal in all sections, including wind and brass.
> 
> i use plogue bidule and it has been very stable and practical when used with logic. it's a great solution.




it is not nonsense as long as there are users who do have trouble with it. consider yourself lucky then.

my point is simply that i do not want to have to resort to third party solutions in order to use PLAY. since eastwest takes pride in having their own player (and there are benefits) i simply expect a solution from THEM. whether that is a real 64bit version, or an official partnership with plogue bidule or jackosx, incorporating their technology, or any other solution that allows PLAY to be routed into logic without glitches - or even compatibility to VE Pro. Just something that is official instead of avoiding the issue.


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## stevenson-again (Apr 11, 2010)

> it is not nonsense as long as there are users who do have trouble with it. consider yourself lucky then.



it IS nonsense since if it does work it CAN work.

with regards to PLAY i don't use it but share everyones hope that PLAY can be sorted out to work reliably as i my want to get into HS at some point.

never-the-less to say that LASS (i cannot speak for HS) is pointless on a mac because you can't get any work done on a deadline is just nonsense. there are quite a few of us doing exactly that.

it's not luck, it's knowing what you are doing. and there is plenty of information and people around who have it sorted that can help you if you need to get it sorted out yourself. fair enough if you object to having to use separate software to get the job done. but previous to plogue and 8-core macs with lots of RAM composers had banks of computers with gigastudio, and before that, banks of hardware samplers. it's no different in principle and these days a lot easier, more powerful and cheaper.

i would have loved a VEpro type application to have been developed by apple alla mainstage. even though logic is 64bit, and even if the plugs we need are developed into 64bit, personally i will still have problems with song switching and load times with my templates and therefore will still want a secondary application to house my big templates. with modern computers its a really efficient solution.


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## midphase (Apr 11, 2010)

"i will still have problems with song switching and load times with my templates and therefore will still want a secondary application to house my big templates. with modern computers its a really efficient solution."


Once again I point at Kontakt Memory Server as really making things considerably quicker in this regard. Perhaps not as quick as VSL VE, but definitely better than they used to be.


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## Mike Connelly (Apr 12, 2010)

Crescendo @ Sun Apr 11 said:


> it is not nonsense as long as there are users who do have trouble with it. consider yourself lucky then.



If it works for some users then "from the perspective of a mac user it is pointless at this time to consider either LASS or HS" _is_ nonsense.

Sure, the playback engine will benefit from a 64 bit version. But saying the current version is unusable for a library like LASS simply isn't true. And I'm not even using Bidule or other apps like it.



Crescendo @ Sun Apr 11 said:


> my point is simply that i do not want to have to resort to third party solutions in order to use PLAY. since eastwest takes pride in having their own player (and there are benefits) i simply expect a solution from THEM.



Did you miss that the post you responded to was talking about LASS, which runs via Kontakt? HS is a big question at this point, but it looks like EW is probably going to make sure PLAY 2.0 is ready before they ship HS (smart move).


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## midphase (Apr 12, 2010)

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