# Brass wars [updated]



## noiseboyuk (May 7, 2011)

[some updated info June 9]

CineBrass released on June 8 for $399
CineBrass Pro announced for Fall 2011
Hollywood Brass Diamond Edition - released July 10 - Introductory price of $795 (List price $995)
Hollywood Brass Gold Edition - released July 10 - Introductory price of $495 (List price $595)

Full HB articulation list here - http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/show ... tcount=147

------ original post -------

CineBrass came out of nowhere and it's looking and sounding absolutely outstanding. Equally impressive is that the team have been so open here and elsewhere, taking constructive feedback.

Now, of course it won't be the only game in town. Here's the list I'm aware of:

Cinesamples CineBrass
VSL Dimension Brass
EWQL Hollywood Brass
Audiobro LA Scoring Brass
Kirk Hunter Concert Brass II
Audio Impressions Brillianti Philharmonic and Early Brass
Sample Modelling Horn, Ensemble Horn and Tuba (Trumpet, Bone and Sax already available)

VSL's offering didn't really seem to set the world on fire, but that's just what the expectation of CineBrass is. However, no doubt mindful of the splash Cinesamples is making, Nick Phoenix just posted here - http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/show ... tcount=103 - to counter on behalf of HB:



> Brass is getting close. Will post some quick examples in a couple of weeks. What is important to note about Hollywood brass is it is a complete picture of a Hollywood brass section capable of playing 98% of what a real player or section can do. We recorded for 21 days straight with A list players. It is actually a lot simpler and lighter than the strings, but equally as capable, with no sampling shortcuts. It is quite literally the last film orchestral brass library you will need, recorded in one of the best brass rooms in the world. It's the best VI, I've ever been involved with. Getting curious?



Well yes Nick. It all sounds great. But... Play. Also, Cinesamples' no-nonsense "just play it" approach is incredibly appealing. I suspect in this area - certainly if HS is anything to go by - CineBrass will be ahead of HB. That said, I must admit I'm expecting HB to cover more ground overall, and for the sound to be excellent too.

I hate to say it, but I think the other contenders will find it tough going against these two. In a few weeks time CineBrass may even be out, and we'll have had the first taste of HB, so for the others it'll be a nightmare if there is a significant delay to release. Audio Impressions' was supposed to be out around now, wasn't it? Also Kirk Hunter shouldn't be too far away, but against this competition it'll be very difficult to be heard. Not a word on the eagerly awaited LASB... and with the best will in the world there's a limit to how many brass libraries most composers can afford... if it isn't out over the summer I think it'll be very hard for them (and I ADORE Audiobro).

[update May 9 - see p2 for info on Sample Modelling stuff]

I'll admit I'm curious about HB, but despite being totally wowed by the HS demos and the current incredible sale, I still haven't jumped onto HS, mostly through useability concerns. And as I say, this is where Cinesamples cleans up.


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## Dan Mott (May 7, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

Gees. You love brass like I love Taikos, yet there isn't a good taiko library out right now. :(


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## dedersen (May 7, 2011)

I've all but decided to grab CineBrass once it is released. With the demos they've posted, their entire approach to both sound and playability, and with my own experience with other Cinesamples libraries, it's become a no-brainer even before I've seen the price. So for me, it seems like the Battle of The Brass will be over before it really begins.


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## noiseboyuk (May 7, 2011)

dedersen @ Sat May 07 said:


> I've all but decided to grab CineBrass once it is released. With the demos they've posted, their entire approach to both sound and playability, and with my own experience with other Cinesamples libraries, it's become a no-brainer even before I've seen the price. So for me, it seems like the Battle of The Brass will be over before it really begins.



I do agree with you. I'm 99% certain to get CineBrass for all the reasons you say. The Mikes have excelled themselves with their whole approach to recording, scripting and now testing via the community here. They deserve to clean up.

Question for me is not so much will I buy CineBrass - "yes" - but will I need anything else? HB has some jazz articulations which would be good to be sure. Don't know if CB can do things like double tonguing either, or mutes / stops. So I'm thinking CineBrass will be the workhorse good for 90% of the time - totally playable and really efficient in Kontakt. But I can imagine some cues might need another lib, unless the Mikes have still more tricks up their sleeves....


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## Ryan Scully (May 7, 2011)

dedersen @ Sat May 07 said:


> I've all but decided to grab CineBrass once it is released. With the demos they've posted, their entire approach to both sound and playability, and with my own experience with other Cinesamples libraries, it's become a no-brainer even before I've seen the price. So for me, it seems like the Battle of The Brass will be over before it really begins.




+1

I too was anxious to see all the Brass Libraries premier this year but Cinesamples has already shortened the playing field before the game has even started IMO. Everything about their approach deserves a tip of the cap. I've already bought this library without seeing the price as well.


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## Rob Elliott (May 7, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Sat May 07 said:


> dedersen @ Sat May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > I've all but decided to grab CineBrass once it is released. With the demos they've posted, their entire approach to both sound and playability, and with my own experience with other Cinesamples libraries, it's become a no-brainer even before I've seen the price. So for me, it seems like the Battle of The Brass will be over before it really begins.
> ...




Yea - was also wondering about the double tonguing ability. Anything approaching something like 'Dual of the Fates' would be excellent. Demo just this passage - naked - and I bet you double your sales. >8o


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## Jack Weaver (May 7, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

I think we're all pretty much on the same wavelength here.

Cinebrass sounds really good - as far as the articulations they've chosen to provide. We haven't heard yet any double- or triple-tonguing, mutes, rips, etc. They may exist but we haven't heard them yet. Still we kinda get the idea that they are providing value by stressing on the great utility of their 'longs' and 'shorts'. I certainly will purchase it and look forward to the day I load it up on my system. 

I do wonder in advance where I will find other articulations that can match up with Cinebrass' lively tone. 

I definitely look forward to Hollywood Brass and the nature of its tonality. We're pretty much assured of the breadth of its articulations - and that's a good thing. Cinebrass' first exposure and its creative programming might be giving more food for thought to the EW programmers (and hopefully others also). I hope they wait and get it ultimately right. I'll bet they learned a lot from the experience with Hollywood strings. 

I would think that if there are any two libraries that might have a semblance of similarity of approach it might be Cinebrass and Audobro. They're both in LA (have the same pool of players), use Kontakt and look to ease of playing as first principle.

VSL has already committed itself with Dimension Brass. I have it and enjoy it - especially its divisi horns, trombones and the power of its low brass groupings. It doesn't have the emotional effect of Cinebrass however. It seems to need the other VSL brass products to reinforce it. Plus the other VSL brass products have tons of great articulations. Fortunately they decided to break their DVD products up into separate downloadable products that are complete. VSL is one of these companies that should be taking a long look at all the creative programming done in Kontakt by Cinesamples, LASS and others. 

I plead woeful ignorance of Kirk Hunter's stuff and Audio Impressions. 

My honest feeling is let them fight it out. The competition will provide better product for all us who directly support them. It's refreshing to see the creativity that's coming out of this. 

.


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## Jeremy B. (May 7, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

Once Sample Modeling finishes their horn and tuba libraries they will also have a completed brass section. It seems though that people find they don't work quite work as well in an ensemble/orchestral context, but are great when used as a solo/layering instrument. (Not to mention the processing power needed for the full brass section).


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## stevenson-again (May 7, 2011)

you're bang on once again guy.


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## Ed (May 7, 2011)

Well Nick has just given us big expectations so we can either rag on him for years for not living up to them or maybe it really will be as good as he claims. 



> "the last film orchestral brass library you will need"



I mean seriously?

Either way, a great time! :D


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## sevaels (May 7, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

As usual like every other library that has preceded them there will be strengths and weaknesses. No library is full on 100% and none of these will be different.

Just glad we have choices so we can mix and match the way we've always done.

Exciting times to be in VI world  o[])


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## TheUnfinished (May 7, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

One of the biggest differences for me in the whole 'brass' debate is this... Cinesamples didn't make a big statement and then find themselves spending the next six months trying to back it up.

And I'm not accusing all the other libraries of doing this... I've just noticed that the Mikes don't go in for all the hyperbole before they've started, and tend to spring surprises once they know what they've got.

They nail it as far as marketing and delivering are concerned if you ask me.

Shame I probably won't be able to afford it! :?


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## chimuelo (May 7, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

For double/triple tounging techniques CHH2 and Screaming Trumpet Pro are great.
Unfortunately in Vegas I have to cheese out sometimes and we have to play Movie soundtracks, etc.
In Kill Bill Al Hirt has a great tune and naturally I was handed the chore. So using CHH2 and Screaming Trumpet Pro ( incredible shakes, ripps, falls ) I pull that stuff off easily.
Screaming Trumpet Pro is always touted as a pop instrument, but I use it to do Malaguena, excerpts from Pines Of Rome, Rocky's Theme ( Maynard ) and if I had to could even pull off some Bud Herseth.
I have BBB for the pop Saxes but their Brass adds little to what I already have.
But Legendary Trombones and Screaming Trumpet Pro are serious ensemble and solo instruments, that can easily fill the gaps in those one in all Orchestral Biggies.
I am scoping Cinebrass for their French Horns right now.
I just can't wait for other developers to get into the compressed files game, so Kontakt NCW or nothing for me.


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## whinecellar (May 7, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



Jack Weaver @ Sat May 07 said:


> We haven't heard yet any double- or triple-tonguing, mutes, rips, etc...
> 
> I do wonder in advance where I will find other articulations that can match up with Cinebrass' lively tone.



Couldn't have said it better. I'm drooling at what I've heard from Cinebrass so far in terms of tone, but I'd pay reasonably big bucks for the ability to finally execute passages like this:

http://soundcloud.com/whinecellarstudio ... hort-brass

Here's hoping!


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## artinro (May 7, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



whinecellar @ Sat May 07 said:


> Couldn't have said it better. I'm drooling at what I've heard from Cinebrass so far in terms of tone, but I'd pay reasonably big bucks for the ability to finally execute passages like this:
> 
> http://soundcloud.com/whinecellarstudio ... hort-brass
> 
> Here's hoping!



+1


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## KMuzzey (May 7, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

I say bring 'em ALL on! There's no such thing as too much of "excellent."

Kerry


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## noiseboyuk (May 8, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

Whoa, Nick just answered how far from release Hollywood Brass is:



> 6 weeks



http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/show ... tcount=116

Which puts it very close to CB. BUT - and I don't wanna just knock EW as a sport - but EW aren't renowned for their release date accuracy. Also - and this is far more important - after a year HS is still getting basic usability tweeks. I'm pretty sure that CineBrass will arrive in very good shape, not perfect no doubt but damn good I'll bet. Not wanting to be a prophet of doom, but HB sounds like it could end up rush-released to me.


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## Danny_Owen (May 8, 2011)

Well, let's hope that that's not the case- I mean it has been in post-production for quite some time now, I think they're probably going to be ready for this one.

My thoughts are that the release date is probably more to co-inside with the release of PLAY 3 than anything else (so that people don't complain about mac only being 32-bit and so that performance is good first time around). At least, that's what I hope.


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## Ashermusic (May 8, 2011)

2 comments, just as Jay, not in my EW role:

1. When Nick says "it is the last film orchestral brass library you will ever need" I believe he means because it is so complete that you will not need another because of missing elements, etc. He didn't say it is the last film orchestral brass library you will ever WANT.

2. CineBrass has set the bar VERY high for all the other developers so kudos to them.


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## Dan Mott (May 8, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

Greetings! My little brass fanatics.

I'm quite pleased that I do not need to decide on a brass library. Lucky me.

However, I have a secret message to you all, well actually a secret suggestion. Do all your selves a favor and wait for EWHB, and purchase that. I know it will most likely be awesome, considering that HS is superb.

That is all.


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## james7275 (May 8, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

If were only six weeks away then I'm going to wait it out to make a decision. I'm only going to have enough money to buy one of these libraries, so i've got towait and see what eastwest brings to the table. 

You know as soon as people hear that first Tj demo they'll all be running back to Easwest's corner.


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## Stevie (May 8, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

:roll:


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## noiseboyuk (May 8, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



james7275 @ Sun May 08 said:


> You know as soon as people hear that first Tj demo they'll all be running back to Easwest's corner.



I hear you - if it sounds anything less than a revolution in sample-based music I'll be amazed!

However, that's not the biggest issue for me, believe it or not. CineBrass is totally tailored to how I prefer to work - cc1, scripting for legato and short articulations, perfect dynamics, Kontakt (so I can fit loads on an SSD and take up almost no RAM), and it sounds sensational. I'm almost certain that Hollywood Brass won't be that good in ALL those areas. Unless Play 3 is something really radical, it'll use a lot more RAM, and it's unlikely to have single patches that are so all-encompassing and versatile.

But of course HB will have other tricks up its sleeve. It'll have some important articulations which cover areas CB won't, I suspect.

Assuming the sound of both is excellent, I can see they'll both have their strengths and weaknesses. Although I know why Nick says "the last Brass library you'll need", I'll be absolutely staggered if it can rival CB in the areas where that library excels. "Need" is a tricky word... just cos something is achievable in a given library doesn't mean that a different library isn't far more suited to it. Workflow can be all imho.


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## germancomponist (May 8, 2011)

It is always interesting to read so many comments about libraries what arn`t on the market yet.


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## Stevie (May 8, 2011)

Yeah, speculations, speculations...


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## noiseboyuk (May 8, 2011)

Stevie @ Sun May 08 said:


> Yeah, speculations, speculations...



Yes partly of course, but a lot is known already:

CINEBRASS

Solos and ensembles, Trumpets, Horns, Trombones, Tuba, Cimbasso (maybe more)

True legato, Kontakt ncw, intelligent scripting for articulations based on playing style, 3 mic positions + mix and extra reverb options

Killer Hollywood sound

HOLLYWOOD BRASS

solo horn, 2 horns. 6 horns, solo trumpet, 2 trumpets, 3 trumpets, solo bone. 2 bones plus bass bone, tuba, cimbasso, low brass section

True legato, Play uncompressed, some jazz-style articulations, multi-mic options


So quite a lot is known about both libraries at this point. Of course there's crucial info to come - pricing, those HB demos, full articulation lists on both. But I certainly wouldn't begrudge anyone choosing CineBrass already on the basis of the above, if it fits into their workflow and don't think they'll use some of the less common articulations. Kontakt ncw + intelligent scripting + killer sound is a damn tasty combo.


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## Stevie (May 8, 2011)

I only heard CineBrass yet


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## noiseboyuk (May 8, 2011)

...and here's the list of HB articulations:

http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2

Nick says it's not a completely exhaustive list. I've asked about the big band artics - he said a while ago it would have these, but I only see some shakes at the moment. Otherwise it kinda looks as I'd expect - lots of choice and detail, but I don't think it'll be as easy to play as CB with the range that has in a single patch - I suspect it'll be legato on one, stacc on another, marcato on another etc, or keyswitches.

Just an additional thought on an earlier comment of mine suggesting they may be rushing release - I could have been unfair, and they could be changing their information release strategy. We know a long way in advance the full list of HS stuff, but they got their fingers burnt doing it that way. What I'm saying is - maybe it's a plan this time to just keep quieter until much nearer release.


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## Simon Ravn (May 8, 2011)

Well, CineBrass is definitely shaping up very nicely, we've heard that.... I presume that Hollywood Brass will be a very cool library too with a great sound. The most problematic variable that currently drags it in the wrong direction is PLAY.


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## Stevie (May 8, 2011)

Couldn't agree more.


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## robibla (May 8, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

wouldn't EW stuff be great if they released kontakt editions again


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## dcoscina (May 8, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



robibla @ Sun May 08 said:


> wouldn't EW stuff be great if they released kontakt editions again



honestly YES! I still use my EW Gold on K4 because it's 64 bit. Sound fine to me.


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## RMWSound (May 8, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



robibla @ Sun May 08 said:


> wouldn't EW stuff be great if they released kontakt editions again



Yes. That is the one thing that makes me hold off every time they release a library. I fail to see the great reasons for dumping money into Play when Kontakt is such a good engine. 

Hollywood Brass looks like an awesome library, but I imagine I will go with CineBrass based on Kontakt alone.


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## nicoroy123 (May 8, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



RMWSound @ Sun May 08 said:


> robibla @ Sun May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > wouldn't EW stuff be great if they released kontakt editions again
> ...



+1
Kontakt 4 is so stable, robust, efficient, versatile etc... I am very reluctant to swich to something else for now.


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## noiseboyuk (May 8, 2011)

I think we're pretty much all on the same page! I'd need to see a lot of serious development on Play before it rivaled Kontakt ncw (see thread here - http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20870 ) . Hence that's why I'm sorta looking at HB as a potential "bits and pieces" library to fill in the bits that CB can't do - if a) the sound blends and b) the extra articulations such as stops, shakes, mutes, fast repetitions (perhaps) maybe falls and doits are all present and correct. How much HB gets adopted beyond that really does depend on the serious development of Play and also some damn clever scripting.


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## FireGS (May 9, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



> Yes, there will be a Diamond and Gold.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> - DR



EDIT: It's also gonna ship on a HDD! Whoa again!



> We'll announce these details closer to release, for sure only Diamond will have all mic positions and will likely ship first, as it will be supplied on hard drive.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> - DR


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## FireGS (May 9, 2011)

Removed.


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## Mike Connelly (May 9, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

Some great points made, it does seem like the bar is set extremely high by CB. I don't doubt that HB will rival it in sound quality, but matching it in terms of playability and user tweaking, and getting PLAY competitive with Kontakt, especially for mac users?

Not all the info is out, but at this point it seems like the advantage of HB may be a few more articulations, depending on what is in CB. They haven't talked about mutes, rips, and a few other things. HB also lists repetitions at three speeds, I assume that's covering double tonguing but are those three speeds time stretchable to tempo? And do they cover both duplets and triplets?

One thing to keep in mind is that if any of these libraries are missing some articulations people want, there's nothing stopping the developer from going back and recording more for an expansion pack. Particularly things like rips, shakes, falls are much simpler than legato intervals and wouldn't take that long to record or program.

Personally I'd much rather have a library that is more limited to the basics but really nails it from day one than one that bites off more than it can chew and has "everything" but never gets all the glitches worked out.



noiseboyuk @ Sun May 08 said:


> after a year HS is still getting basic usability tweeks.



Pointing out that with 3000 patches there isn't time to go through them all and perfect them doesn't instill confidence either.


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## Ah_dziz (May 9, 2011)

FireGS @ Mon May 09 said:


> So here's a bit of information regarding SampleModeling's Mrs. S Soprano Sax, Horn, Horn ENSEMBLE, and Tuba releases.
> 
> Straight from the horses mouth (however, take this all with a grain of salt, as this may change [told this directly], no promises):
> 
> ...



I'm super excited about this. Not having to buy the horn and the tuba separately is pretty great. I was expecting to get a solo horn and then have to wait another 6 months for a tuba.


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## Dominik Raab (May 9, 2011)

I'm quite sure I'll test them both. I love almost all the EW libraries I own (except for RA... the percussion is nice, but everything else seems... well, I can't really tell what it is that I don't like) and received Hollywoodwinds a few days ago, which made me think quite positively about Cinesamples.

The most important thing for myself I see with CineBrass is the polyphonic behaviour of Legato instruments.
If EW does it like with Hollywood Strings, there will be no possibility to have several voices of the same instrument play in legato at the same time - without loading the patch twice and creating different MIDI tracks.
I'm looking forward to Legato patches that can be played with two or more notes at a time.

Edit: You know... about Nick's words saying we won't need any other brass library anymore. There's a little excerpt from the Orchestral Brass Classic manual (ProjectSam) that I'd like to share with you:
"PROJECTSAM ORCHESTRAL BRASS CLASSIC is the only brass library that no film, TV or game composer can afford to be without."
Any questions?
Seems to be brass-related, though... never read that about any other instrument :D


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## FireGS (May 9, 2011)

Heya Noiseboyuk, You should edit the initial post and put all the info thats been added, to keep track.


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## Joe S (May 9, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

I have a slightly different view.

I agree that a lot depends on the new version of PLAY which is supposed to be much better.

However, there is all this BS about Hollywood Strings having problems etc.. It is a sample library without equal. And you guys complaining that they keep releasing updates is just stupid. EW has made life very difficult for themselves with the PLAY engine. I am optimistic that there is light at the end of the tunnel.


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## dcoscina (May 9, 2011)

Sorry Joe but I own HS and it does have problems. I hear background noise from the sampling session at a certain velocity range in the short cello articulations. That's sloppy. It is there. I also have cut off problems in some sounds. I probably use about 30% of this library and obviously it's upsetting but whether it's my system or whatnot, it just doesn't PLAY nice. The other EW libs don't suffer from this though. Well, not as much. I have a Mac Quad Pro which isn't the best but not the worst and I feel that I shouldn't have to have a Ferrari of computing power in order to use this library. I don't issues with ANY other library I own and I own a lot.


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## noiseboyuk (May 9, 2011)

FireGS @ Mon May 09 said:


> Heya Noiseboyuk, You should edit the initial post and put all the info thats been added, to keep track.



Made a few tweeks....

Here's the thing about East West. They've gone down a road of Bigger Is Better. The sample libraries get ever more huge, as do the hardware requirements. Other developers have taken a different, perhaps more elegant road. LASS First Chair is 1GB and sounds sensational for example.

I think EW are mindful of this, they're emphasizing that HB is lighter and less taxing than HB. But the fundamentals haven't yet changed. Hopefully Play 3 will improve performance and load times, and that is really important. But how about lossless compression? How about scripting that senses how you play and changes artics on the fly? How about a handful of customizable patches, not 3,000?

At 3,000 patches and 800,000 samples, HS seems to be almost untameable. And you can't fault the ambition, you really can't - or the sound. I bet if you took that sample pool and gave it to the world's greatest scripters and developers, they'd be 18 months until they had something that just works great out of the box. It is - to borrow one of their own names - a colossus. But that isn't a selling point to me - it's a problem.

I don't complain about the updates - good lord customers need them. But I think it reflects on the fact that - perhaps like Play itslef - East West perhaps sometimes bite off more than they can chew. I really hope Play 3 is a huge step forward, and I really hope HB does come in playable, (relatively) light and nimble, cos I know it'll sound stellar, and it's clear as day the talent and work that has gone into getting it into production. I've no doubt it'll sell. But unless those changes come... how much will it actually get used?


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## adg21 (May 9, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

Sometimes I wonder what it would take for EW to release a Hollywood Strings version for KONTAKT. 

Not only would I be willing to buy it, but I'd also be willing to pay MORE for it (say to make up for the additional licensing fee they would have to pay Native Instruments). Same goes for their upcoming libraries.


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## FireGS (May 9, 2011)

Won't ever happen. I'm sure they'll say that Kontakt couldnt handle the sample or streaming load.


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## adg21 (May 9, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

Well that would just be untrue.


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## RiffWraith (May 9, 2011)

FireGS @ Mon May 09 said:


> Won't ever happen. I'm sure they'll say that Kontakt couldnt handle the sample or streaming load.



No, it won't ever happen, but not b/c of streaming issues. Tho, they already do claim Kontakt cant handle what PLAY can. 

It's b/c EW does not want to pay licensing fees to NI. Which - and trust me on this - is not cheap.

Cheers.


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## FireGS (May 9, 2011)

No doubt. $15,000 per installer. Screw that.


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## adg21 (May 9, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

How about they make users buy the PLAY version first, then you can pay the extra to upgrade it to Kontakt, even if it's double. 

Seriously, some people, if it was 50% more, or even a double, might pay that.


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## FireGS (May 9, 2011)

They'd never pay the $15,000, plus allllll the time it'd take to do it. I mean, it'd be on the level of a brand new library.


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## Simon Ravn (May 9, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Mon May 09 said:


> FireGS @ Mon May 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Heya Noiseboyuk, You should edit the initial post and put all the info thats been added, to keep track.
> ...



There are way too many patches in HS. Just browsing through them, trying to notice the small differences and deciding which you should choose to use, can be an exhausting and tedious procedure (and the slow loading/memory handling issues don't exactly make it faster/easier). It seems very "coder-ish", the lists of patches that get thrown at you when you enter an instruments' sub folder. 

It is what I would expect from a private library, where the authors know all these small corners of each patch and know how it differs from the one above. However, for a new user, who wasn't part of the creation process has, it is just confusing and overwhelming. I doubt that even Nick and Thomas will use all of these patches in their workflow. I am sure that had they taken the time, they could have boiled it down to 25% of the current patch list, and you would still have a perfectly good library where you wouldn't feel anything was missing. And you would have a lot more inspiring experience trying out the different patches, without feeling as overwhelmed.

I hope they will consider thinning out the patch list for their upcoming libraries.


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## Simon Ravn (May 9, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



adg21 @ Mon May 09 said:


> Well that would just be untrue.



... and? 8)


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## NYC Composer (May 9, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

I'd guess the reason for Play was as much a control issue as it was a monetary issue, however coming up with a great sample player seems to have been more of a challenge than they anticipated. EW's reach has often exceeded their grasp, which has been great for pushing the industry towards excellence but sometimes hard on the end user's workflow. Like some others in this thread, I'm hoping HB is more focused on ease of use and playability rather than the inclusion of every articulation under the sun, and that Play3/Play Pro are great leaps forward for their generally outstanding product line.


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## FireGS (May 9, 2011)

Just asked on SOF:

"Not sure if this has been asked, but I'm sure there is going to be a pre-order period a few weeks before release, right? If that 6 weeks is legit, is that 6 weeks until release, or until pre-orders start? And if it's release, shouldn't the pre-orders start fairly soon? Just doing financial planning."


----------



## Tino Danielzik (May 9, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

Hi,

very interesting thread here. I have to say, I started to smile when I saw that Nick Phoenix posted the details about HB, and now the short release date. I guess EW is under lot of pressure at the moment. I don't think it is a coincidence that they came up with all the details and the release date shortly after the demos of CineBrass. I guess they are surprised as much as we are about CineBrass.

I don't own HS, but I use LASS, and I really have to say, even if I had the money, I wouldn't buy HS yet. First of all cause I love the sound of LASS, it has really such a great expressive sound. Second, HS seems to me very complex, and as everyone knows, the system requirements are huge. And PLAY still has a lot of problems.

I'm afraid that HB will be as complex as HS. CB on the other side is a ready to play library which sounds awesome. If I would buy another Brass library beside CB, it would be Audiobro's LASB.

Regards,
Tino


----------



## FireGS (May 9, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



Tino Danielzik @ Mon May 09 said:


> If I would buy another Brass library beside CB, it would be Audiobro's LASB.



Can we get some sources on where anyone from AudioBro even mentioned they were doing Brass? Until we hear something from the horses mouth, I dont think we should be holding our breath.


----------



## Jeremy B. (May 9, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

There's been a few posts made by Andrew, but here is one that first confirmed it. 


Thonex @ Tue Feb 01 said:


> jamwerks @ Tue Feb 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Is a LASS Brass an announced reality or just wishfull speculation?
> ...


----------



## FireGS (May 9, 2011)

"intends". That is all.


----------



## Jeremy B. (May 9, 2011)

FireGS @ Mon May 09 said:


> "intends". That is all.


For sure, they haven't announced anything, but as I said before Andrew has hinted a _few_ times that they have brass plans in the works.


----------



## Tino Danielzik (May 9, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

Andrew from Audiobro mentioned a few times that he is planning a Brass library. All I say is that I would wait for this one.


----------



## Stevie (May 9, 2011)

dcoscina @ 9th May 2011 said:


> I personally cannot use PLAY anywhere near as much as Kontakt 4....sad but true.



+1, made the same painful experience


----------



## muziksculp (May 9, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



Tino Danielzik @ Mon May 09 said:


> Andrew from Audiobro mentioned a few times that he is planning a Brass library. All I say is that I would wait for this one.



My guess is Audiobro Brass will need a long time to surface. 

Hopefully LASS Legato-Sordino will be next, and then LASS-2, and possibly LASBrass to follow. I would rather see Andrew focus on offering a comprehensive Strings Collection before venturing into Brass and Woodwinds.


----------



## Stevie (May 9, 2011)

FireGS @ 9th May 2011 said:


> They'd never pay the $15,000, plus allllll the time it'd take to do it. I mean, it'd be on the level of a brand new library.



If other companies can afford Kontakt powered libraries, why not EW?
I mean compared to Andrew K and CineSamples (no offense guys!) EW
is a HUGE player. Hence their zillions of specials (literally) every month.


----------



## Ed (May 9, 2011)

Stevie @ Mon May 09 said:


> FireGS @ 9th May 2011 said:
> 
> 
> > They'd never pay the $15,000, plus allllll the time it'd take to do it. I mean, it'd be on the level of a brand new library.
> ...



East West can afford it, it cost far more to develop Play and mantain it. They want to have it all in house for some reason, but they have their reasons, but its not because they can't afford Kontakt.


----------



## Tino Danielzik (May 9, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



muziksculp @ Mon May 09 said:


> Tino Danielzik @ Mon May 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Andrew from Audiobro mentioned a few times that he is planning a Brass library. All I say is that I would wait for this one.
> ...



+1


----------



## JohnG (May 9, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

I don't know but I suspect it's a few different things, that might include:

1. Wanting to be sure that the software development priorities for fixes and more fundamental choices are determined by EW and not a third party vendor / competitor with its own needs and plans;

2. Wanting to have a free hand designing the features and GUI of their software; and

3. Wanting to control anti-piracy decisions.

We could all speculate about whether all this worked out the way they'd intended. I'm sure they are enormously disappointed that it's taken so long to get the software protection sorted out for 64 bit PLAY on a Mac, and a few other things.


----------



## Stevie (May 9, 2011)

Ed @ 10th May 2011 said:


> East West can afford it, it cost far more to develop Play and mantain it. They want to have it all in house for some reason, but they have their reasons, but its not because they can't afford Kontakt.



Exactly (was a rhetorical question 8), because they want to have full control.
To me one thing is clear, Play will never be as efficient as Kontakt, unless they code it
from scratch.


----------



## Ed (May 9, 2011)

Simon Ravn @ Mon May 09 said:


> It is what I would expect from a private library, where the authors know all these small corners of each patch and know how it differs from the one above. However, for a new user, who wasn't part of the creation process has, it is just confusing and overwhelming. I doubt that even Nick and Thomas will use all of these patches in their workflow. I am sure that had they taken the time, they could have boiled it down to 25% of the current patch list, and you would still have a perfectly good library where you wouldn't feel anything was missing. And you would have a lot more inspiring experience trying out the different patches, without feeling as overwhelmed.
> 
> I hope they will consider thinning out the patch list for their upcoming libraries.



What they could easily do, or at least easily meaning practically, is just create various playable patches that don't require all this advanced stuff. Ones that will work for specific tasks. Like, I can imagine a patch called "Fast Action Spiccs" or something, or maybe "Romantic Legato", or whatever, point is when you load it you have a task in mind and then it can do it, with only one patch. 

I mean I like lots of different patches, but give me some main ones that are just really playable. CS seems to have that philosophy down, I know that I'm never going to load up so many patches and I'm sure most people won't work that way either even if maybe Thomas does.


----------



## Stevie (May 9, 2011)

Point 3 is surely one of the main reasons, John.


----------



## JohnG (May 9, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

I agree, Stevie. Maybe anti-piracy was the main motivation? 

Certainly, many libraries were destroyed in the 1990s by piracy and Nick was aware of that.


----------



## Stevie (May 9, 2011)

Yeah, it's a complete valid reason.
I still wonder why NI doesn't make Kontakt really "safe".


----------



## Gerd Kaeding (May 9, 2011)

Stevie @ Mon May 09 said:


> Yeah, it's a complete valid reason.
> I still wonder why NI doesn't make Kontakt really "safe".



Hi Stevie , 

NI meanwhile has some kind of monopol position in the market , with all the rather smaller library developers , and I somehow have the impression that NI doesn't feel a pressure to invest in a better copy protection , because NI earns the money with_ licensing_ , and so it is the library developers who get screwed by software pirates . 

-- 

East West must have made their decision to develope their own player at a time when Kontakt ( 2 ) was far from being that smooth ( _at least on Mac_ ) as it is now. Not to mention the KompaktPlayer . I still remember the "Sample Reloading" parties in Logic , and Kontakt / Kompakt crashed Logic quite frequently and easily at that time.
VSL already had their own Player with a better copy protection for their libraries & investments, and might have been a kind of example for EastWest , that having an own Player for their libraries is a better option to protect their (good selling) libraries.

- - -


----------



## Stevie (May 9, 2011)

Valid points, Gerd. Yeah, Kompakt was horrible indeed :D


----------



## muziksculp (May 9, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

If EW can make PLAY3 as efficient as Kontakt 4 they will make a lot users very happy ! 

Hopefully PLAY3 will be much more efficient than PLAY2, but ... how much more efficient is another question. (Hopefully close or equal to Kontakt 4) :lol:


----------



## tripit (May 9, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Mon May 09 said:


> FireGS @ Mon May 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Heya Noiseboyuk, You should edit the initial post and put all the info thats been added, to keep track.
> ...



Well put on all points. And I think for me, you summed it perfectly with your last line...how much will it actually get used. HS is cumbersome on many levels, to the point where I'm reluctant to engage it for many cues. My work slows down significantly whenever I start implementing HS for all the various reasons (Play a big part of it) and while I love the sound, many times the trade off just isn't worth it. At the end of the day, that's pretty much what it boils down to...how much will it actually get used. And currently for me...that's not so much. 

Hoping eventually that will change.


----------



## noiseboyuk (May 10, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



muziksculp @ Mon May 09 said:


> My guess is Audiobro Brass will need a long time to surface.
> 
> Hopefully LASS Legato-Sordino will be next, and then LASS-2, and possibly LASBrass to follow. I would rather see Andrew focus on offering a comprehensive Strings Collection before venturing into Brass and Woodwinds.



I actually find myself hoping that LASB gets put on the backburner. I want Audiobro to be hugely successful in every product they do, and the current brass explosion makes that incredibly hard for them.

I can't wait for LASS 1.9, though it's now a few months away apparently. We're all so keen to find out how successful Stage and Color is in practice. LASS is awesome without it, so there's no real problem if it doesn't change the world, but if it produced the Road To Perdition sound at the touch of a button... well, that would be a pretty big deal. It may even steal the thunder of LASS Sordinos... perhaps that's why they're releasing Sordinos first?! And yes to LASS 2 - effects, runs etc would be awesome. Maybe after that they should jump straight to LASW? Or should they just continue so specialise in strings and clean up?

Meanwhile, I just checked this thread - http://vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=265139&no=1 (http://vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=265139&amp;no=1) - which says that Audio Impressions' brass library is released newt week! I'd be quite surprised if this were the case being as we've not heard anything in a while (and demos were promised in April), but who knows. The more recent full orchestral demos from the company were much better received than their first batch. Also notice that DVZ strings has had a significant price drop to match HS, so I guess it'll be fairly keenly priced too. Just a thought - Audio Impressò Ì   OÕ! Ì   OÖ– Ì   OÖº Ì   O×Þ Ì   OØ Ì   OÜK Ì   OÜÆ Ì   Oà? Ì   Oàg Ì   Oéê Ì   Oê
 Ì   Oî Ì   OîJ Ì   Oð÷ Ì   OñT Ì   Pg Ì   PgÁ Ì   P» Ì   PD Ì   Pƒ# Ì   P… Ì   PŸt Ì   PŸ˜ Ì   Pª# Ì   Pª? Ì   P½s Ì   P½ó Ì   PÝP Ì   PÝº Ì   PæÅ Ì   Pææ Ì


----------



## Pedro Camacho (May 10, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



nicoroy123 @ Mon May 09 said:


> Kontakt 4 is so stable, robust, efficient, versatile etc... I am very reluctant to swich to something else for now.



+1

I am also a HUGE fan of Audiobro so if they make a brass lib, I will buy it for sure.
Cinesamples Brass is also in my shopping list.


----------



## Simon Ravn (May 10, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue May 10 said:


> Stevie @ Mon May 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Valid points, Gerd. Yeah, Kompakt was horrible indeed :D
> ...



:lol:


----------



## RiffWraith (May 10, 2011)

Stevie @ Tue May 10 said:


> Valid points, Gerd. Yeah, *Kompakt* was horrible indeed :D





EastWest Lurker @ Tue May 10 said:


> Indeed it wasn't until 3.5 that Kontakt really started to become the efficient, stable, and powerful platform it is now. How many years was it from the original to that?



Kompakt and Kontakt should not be compared.

K2 was efficient and stable. Powerful, maybe not really, but to say that it wasn't until 3.5 that Kontakt really started to become the efficient, stable, and powerful platform it is now, is completely false. It wasn't until 3.5 that Kontakt became 64-bit, but it was efficient, stable, and _somewhat_ powerful before that.

Cheers.


----------



## Treb (May 10, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



noiseboyuk @ Mon May 09 said:


> We're all so keen to find out how successful Stage and Color is in practice. LASS is awesome without it, so there's no real problem if it doesn't change the world, but if it produced the Road To Perdition sound at the touch of a button... well, that would be a pretty big deal. It may even steal the thunder of LASS Sordinos... perhaps that's why they're releasing Sordinos first?



I remember reading a few months ago that some of the Color presets will be exclusive to LASS Sordino, including the Road to Perdition one, so I don't think the feature will cannibalize LASS Sordino's own sales.

I can't wait to hear the demos and see just how lush it can get. Imagine if it could match the tone of HS? :]


----------



## JohnG (May 10, 2011)

RiffWraith @ 10th May 2011 said:


> K2 was efficient and stable. Powerful, maybe not really, but to say that it wasn't until 3.5 that Kontakt really started to become the efficient, stable, and powerful platform it is now, is completely false. It wasn't until 3.5 that Kontakt became 64-bit, but it was efficient, stable, and _somewhat_ powerful before that.
> 
> Cheers.



For what it's worth, I had tremendous problems with K1 and K2 on my PC, until about v2.5 I think? But that is all in the past; Kontakt has been absolutely awesome since then and it is overall great to work with. One of its best features is that its complexity -- for those who want it -- is hidden. So if you just want a little EQ or something it's pretty easy to add in (or reverb or whatever). But if you want to delve deeply, that's under the hood too. This to me is a really important part of design and a big plus for Kontakt / NI.

There are still some libraries that don't pop up as libraries that are searchable in the Kontakt browser but I believe that's the library's issue, not Kontakt.

(Note: I recently received a free copy of QL Spaces from EW)


----------



## EastWest Lurker (May 10, 2011)

RiffWraith @ Tue May 10 said:


> K2 was efficient and stable. Powerful, maybe not really, but to say that it wasn't until 3.5 that Kontakt really started to become the efficient, stable, and powerful platform it is now, is completely false. It wasn't until 3.5 that Kontakt became 64-bit, but it was efficient, stable, and _somewhat_ powerful before that.
> 
> Cheers.



If you had a different experience, fine, but I am telling you my experience and that of many Logic clinets and friends who I know. Kontakt 2 was a hot mess and when people had a choice between an EXS24 version and a Kontakt version I always told them to get the EXS24 version. As you added instances it would take FOREVER to load and unload, it was a memory hog compared to the EXS24, it caused Logic projects to get corrupted, and nowhere near what it is now.

Without being specific and violating an NDA, I will tell you I have a relationship with N.I. and met with some of their people early on version 3 and they were fully aware of the issues I raised and determined to make it better, which they certainly did. So do not take this as "Jay now works for EW and so is bashing N.I." because I am not.

I am convinced EW is on that same journey.


----------



## dcoscina (May 10, 2011)

I truly hope PLAY 3 rocks the house. I have enough of their products to benefit from improved performance as would many people here. And I do here you regarding EXS. I still use Logic 8 because I can use the Performance Tool from VSL on my Horizon Saxes. I downloaded the Soprano Sax from VSL but the older one sounds better to my ears...weird but true.


----------



## noiseboyuk (May 10, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue May 10 said:


> I am convinced EW is on that same journey.



Great to hear, Jay!

Treb - I'm 99% sure S&C will apply to Full LASS - don't know if it'll be in the Sordinos (unless someone has a link to show otherwise or Andrew wants to chip in?)


----------



## stevenson-again (May 10, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



> If you had a different experience, fine, but I am telling you my experience and that of many Logic clinets and friends who I know. Kontakt 2 was a hot mess and when people had a choice between an EXS24 version and a Kontakt version I always told them to get the EXS24 version. As you added instances it would take FOREVER to load and unload, it was a memory hog compared to the EXS24, it caused Logic projects to get corrupted, and nowhere near what it is now....
> 
> 
> ...I am convinced EW is on that same journey.



well i am not as sure about you in that assessment although i can agree somewhat.

the problem was to do with sample libraries becoming more extensive and the move away from giga studio. offline bouncing was very popular as well. even now, the whole drive toward 64bit is predicated upon memory limitations in the 32bit domain.

in fact you touched on a point in a logic thread which i also slightly disagree with regarding onus or responsibility of a problem - namely 64bit quicktime support. and it is to do with what is an appropriate way of working given the way things were going.

the main problem with kontakt 2 is that in loading it into logic, it would as you rightly say - hog memory - but not because it was intrinsically unstable or unreliable. but because it did not have the memory server facilities of the exs, it would soon overload logics memory which was reducing because of added features of its own, and the exs memory server demanding a great chunk in order to access more.

at the time, the logic team were developing mainstage, which has become very popular with live performers and there is a lot of commonality between logic and mainstage. what would have been a much smarter approach would have been to develop mainstage to be a rig that logic could access, much in the way we have VEpro to do that now. even now with 64bit logic, a lot of composers still prefer to load their template into a secondary application such as VEpro, or plogue, in order to make managing it easier, and switching projects smoother, and recovering from crashes much quicker (which ironically don't happen when using a secondary app because the pressure is off the DAW).

so while you are right to say that reliability with kontakt 2 was poor, and that QT 64bit is the issue with video rather than logic itself, in the context of where we were sometime ago, i would say it is not that we needed 64bit, it's that we needed a better approach to the transition. how long has 64bit logic been out? how long has it taken to get plugs to go 64bit? we needed a solution then just as we still need that solution right now. the smartest company was vienna, because they could see the need for a secondary app and ways of dealing with large libraries and using slaves etc. 

all the DAW makers were culpable to an extent, but i really felt apple missed a big trick with mainstage. personally i was very slow on the uptake with kontakt 2 precisely because of the problems i had heard about. but eventually i couldn't ignore some of the libraries developed for it, and it turned out the issue wasn't kontakt at all - just the 32bit memory constraint. putting kontakt 2 into plogue made every thing just fine. kontakt 3.5 made everything way better.

64bit DAWs needed to happen, but i found it astonishing that the real picture was missed by those who should really have seen it. the word i got when querying this to insiders was; that those who were having problems were only hard-core users, and the majority (ie garageband graduates) would never need such extensive capability. well why bother developing 64bit then?


----------



## synthnut (May 10, 2011)

Going back to the Kontakt2 days, you also had Giga which on some systems was very efficient to run and was much better than Kontakt at the time IF, ( and this is a HUGE IF ) you had a good running Giga PC .....Giga had it's share of problems back in the day too , but was so much more efficient to run than Kontakt , and there was a lot of support from 3rd party companies that made the amount of libraries grow to great numbers .... Stability and Efficiency is the name of the game .... To be fair to E/W , you really have to look at how long it took NI to accomplish this feat .... Its been a LONG ROAD !!.... I would also venture to say that if it were not for the competion of companies bringing their own brand of engine to the mix , perhaps NI would not have worked as hard as they did to fix Kontakt ..... Competion is good !!....Jim


----------



## JohnG (May 10, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



stevenson-again @ 10th May 2011 said:


> the word i got when querying this to insiders was; that those who were having problems were only hard-core users, and the majority (ie garageband graduates) would never need such extensive capability. well why bother developing 64bit then?



This is an interesting question. I am continually astonished to see how many amass such extensive collections of gear gear, when their posts reflect the views and understanding of someone very green. One of the sales guys at West LA Music, who do sell entire studios to "famous guys," told me many years ago that they do a hell of a lot of business with stuff that one would normally picture high schoolers using. Who knows?



synthnut @ 10th May 2011 said:


> I would also venture to say that if it were not for the competion of companies bringing their own brand of engine to the mix , perhaps NI would not have worked as hard as they did to fix Kontakt ..... Competion is good !!....Jim



I have often wondered this. With the demise of Giga, I wouldn't like to see a monopoly.

On the subject of the "invisible hand" of competition and the marketplace, I wonder sometimes whether opening PLAY to other developers might be a boon to EW's development.

(Note: I recently received a free copy of QL Spaces from EW)


----------



## dcoscina (May 10, 2011)

Nice John. Do you like it? The demo I used was sweet. Very nice reverbs. Sounded quite good with VSL stuff and LASS.


----------



## JohnG (May 10, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

I absolutely love QL Spaces. I tried it and liked it so much that I substituted it out for a very expensive bunch of reverbs from another company and vastly prefer the sound. It's present but transparent (to me anyway). There's a 10 day download test period for anyone interested.

It's certainly possible that the other company's plugins didn't sound too good to me because I am not using them very well, but I don't like fiddling with plugins -- at all. So starting with presets-and-a-few-adjustments-and-done is good to me

I am looking forward to the hi pass and low pass filters that are promised in v1.1 of Spaces; I kind of like the simplicity of the interface as-is, but that's something that I would like to have.

I still love the sound of the t.c. electronic hardware reverb, but you can't do stems with a hardware reverb (unless you are either extremely patient or have enough dough to buy five or ten of them).

I've been using it with EW libraries, Tonehammer, some LASS, Sonivox, and Vir2's world percussion.

(Note: I recently received a free copy of QL Spaces from EW)


----------



## FireGS (May 10, 2011)

How'd ya get the free copy?


----------



## synthnut (May 10, 2011)

"I wonder sometimes whether opening PLAY to other developers might be a boon to EW's development"

Looks to me like E/W likes the keep things in their own camp for the time being ......?????.....Stranger things have happened .....

I'm glad that you guys are liking Spaces .... If Play3 works out for the Mac, it may be time for me to come out and "PLAY" ......I've been hindered too much in the past with technology to jump in just now ....This guinea pig got older and wiser over the years .... .......Jim


----------



## Treb (May 10, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Tue May 10 said:


> Treb - I'm 99% sure S&C will apply to Full LASS - don't know if it'll be in the Sordinos (unless someone has a link to show otherwise or Andrew wants to chip in?)



Hi Guy, I was basing my information on the NAMM thread on the Audiobro forum. It would be great if LASS LS weren't a requirement for the Road to Perdition IRs... and who knows, maybe they've changed their minds; the info was from January. :] 

(Not sure if it breaks rules to link to an outside forum? Mods, please edit/remove if this is inappropriate: http://www.audiobro.com/forums/viewtopi ... tion#p6362)



Andrew K @ Sat Jan 22 said:


> One point of clarification regarding Road To Perdition... That IR preset will be mostly for the LASS LS (Legato Sordino)... but there will be other Score options too.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Andrew K


----------



## noiseboyuk (May 10, 2011)

Quite right then Treb, I hadn't seen that - cheers. I suspect then that the selling point of the Sordinos will be "lush" (unsurprisingly, perhaps...)


----------



## Mike Connelly (May 11, 2011)

Treb @ Tue May 10 said:


> Hi Guy, I was basing my information on the NAMM thread on the Audiobro forum. It would be great if LASS LS weren't a requirement for the Road to Perdition IRs... and who knows, maybe they've changed their minds; the info was from January. :]



My impression was that both sordinos and regular LASS will have that feature but the two libraries will likely have different presets since different sounds are easier to get coming from the two different starting points.

And I doubt they're worried about that feature eating into sordino sales, the sordinos are priced cheap enough to be a no brainer for most LASS users.


----------



## germancomponist (May 11, 2011)

I can`t wait to listen to the first demo from EastWest and the SampleModeling french horn.

Also I don`t like the title "Brass Wars" very much... .


----------



## Dan Mott (May 12, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

Just want to say I love Kontakt, it's never let me down. Oh.. neither has PLAY really. I'll never really know what the fuss is about.

Cheers.


----------



## Mike Connelly (May 12, 2011)

If all the threads going into excruciating detail about specific issues (including the last one that went six pages) don't explain "what the fuss is about", I don't know what will.

Dan are you on PC or Mac?


----------



## noiseboyuk (May 12, 2011)

germancomponist @ Wed May 11 said:


> Also I don`t like the title "Brass Wars" very much... .



When CineBrass and Hollywood Brass are both released, and someone here has both... would they mind composing a cue called Brass Wars? I bet it would ROCK.


----------



## Dominik Raab (May 12, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Thu 12 May said:


> germancomponist @ Wed May 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Also I don`t like the title "Brass Wars" very much... .
> ...



I will own both and I'd love to, but I'm a beginner and you wouldn't enjoy THAT =D


----------



## james7275 (May 16, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

This is what Nick just posted at soundsonline. 

"I think Cinebrass sounds very good, but the library has tons of shortcuts because of limited recording time or budget. Kind of like EWQLSO. At this point, I don't see a point in making compromised libraries, even if they sound good. I am sure they will whip the Cinebrass into good shape, though. The only thing that I wonder is why people aren't asking the really relevant questions in that forum. 

Important considerations in a 2011 orchestral brass library

Does it have different size sections and solo instruments that all play the same articulations, so you can split parts and be able to use all articulations and dynamics whether it is a solo, 2 players or full section?

Does it have mutes for everything including solos?

Are all the long sustains looped including solos? This is assumed yes, but still should be asked.

Are there shortcuts, or articulations like marcato, or quarter notes samples with lots of dynamics and round robins?

Were playable run samples captured?

Was blistering FFF captured?

Was ppp captured?

Were repetitions sampled?

Multi length time synced crescendos?

Effects?

True double and triple tongue?

How is the tuning?

Programming and script quality?

True legato sampled at 3 dynamics throughout the range? This is the minimum needed to cover all bases."


----------



## Jack Weaver (May 16, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

Are we going to hear anything or just talk about it?

.


----------



## stonzthro (May 16, 2011)

James, I think the point of Cinebrass isn't to be an 'all-inclusive' sample library, in fact none of the Mike's samples have really attempted to do that. They are making a library that fills a need, is fast to work with and doesn't require tons of work to make it fit into a mix.

HWB - that's probably more along the lines of what you are talking about. I hope EW follows suit with Vienna and offers single instruments, but I doubt they will...


----------



## whinecellar (May 16, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

Fellas,

Those weren't James' questions - he was quoting Nick Phoenix' post over at SOL. The fact that Nick asks those questions suggests that HWB will cover those features.

Features aside (important as they are!) - Cinebrass is already sounding phenomenal and will likely be eminently useable, that much is clear.

Can't wait to hear - and use - them both!


----------



## germancomponist (May 16, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



whinecellar @ Mon May 16 said:


> ... The fact that Nick asks those questions suggests that HWB will cover those features. ... Can't wait to hear...



+1


----------



## stonzthro (May 16, 2011)

got it - sry James!


----------



## noiseboyuk (May 16, 2011)

Whoa! Have to say, I think Nick's post is quite revealing. I've no doubt that HB will have a ton of stuff that is super-cool, including a fair bit beyond what CB can offer (until CBII comes along!). I bet it sounds sensational as well. But I don't think Nick sees (or doesn't want to admit to) the outstanding qualities that attract us to CB regardless.

Why is Symphobia still so used? Answer - it sounds spot on and it's dead easy to get a killer sound (open, then play some notes). CB is WAY more sophisticated technically than Symphobia, but those two attributes are what's gonna sell it just the same and - more importantly - get it USED day by day. Who needs tempo-synced crescendos if the mod wheel customises it perfectly every time without even changing patches? Keep that workflow going... these are _instruments_ we're playing.

Cinebrass will fit into your laptop with heaps of room to spare, boot up in a flash, and be completely customised to how each player wants to work. It'll sound as it is - played by the same musicians who work with John Williams, and recorded in the same space by the same engineer. It's NOTHING like SO (except budget maybe, I honestly wouldn't know) which has to be pieced together patch by patch and with no legato.

I don't want to do HB down - like I say, it WILL cover more ground and it'll make for some gorgeous demos. But unless Play goes through a complete transformation - the load times are a great start but only a start - it'll be CineBrass that I go for first, no question.


----------



## David Story (May 16, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

I've learned to wait for the user OOTB demos. Or my own hands on. Those will tell if the velocity and modwheel are smooth and forgiving, or take months to learn.
I completely agree that easy to play and good sound is more useful than hard to control but great sound.


----------



## germancomponist (May 16, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



David Story @ Tue May 17 said:


> I completely agree that easy to play and good sound is more useful than hard to control but great sound.



Opssss,

what is the different between a good sound and a great sound?

Arn`t we all after the greatest sound?


----------



## Ed (May 16, 2011)

I agree, I think Nick has misses the point.

I really don't think Cine Brass is going to at all be comprehensive but its got the sound and its got the most common patches people are looking for. It seems like it will have a uncomplicated interphase, it will load instantly.

I have no doubt that Hollywood Brass will sound awesome as well, and I'm sure it will be more realistic (so long as you use their super intense patches) and be much more detailed. But I also have no doubt it will be a BITCH to use and even if I had both I can see myself probably turn to CS way more because I just don't want to stress myself out. I have Cinematic Strings which I love the long notes of and doesn't get much attention on this forum, but while its still easy to use Symphobia is SO easy to use dependng on what I need I will just use a Symphobia patch even though technically Cinematic Strings sounds better, its just quicker to use Symphobia. 

That said I'm still super excited to see what Hollywood Brass is like :D



noiseboyuk @ Mon May 16 said:


> Whoa! Have to say, I think Nick's post is quite revealing. I've no doubt that HB will have a ton of stuff that is super-cool, including a fair bit beyond what CB can offer (until CBII comes along!). I bet it sounds sensational as well. But I don't think Nick sees (or doesn't want to admit to) the outstanding qualities that attract us to CB regardless.
> 
> Why is Symphobia still so used? Answer - it sounds spot on and it's dead easy to get a killer sound (open, then play some notes). CB is WAY more sophisticated technically than Symphobia, but those two attributes are what's gonna sell it just the same and - more importantly - get it USED day by day. Who needs tempo-synced crescendos if the mod wheel customises it perfectly every time without even changing patches? Keep that workflow going... these are _instruments_ we're playing.
> 
> ...


----------



## germancomponist (May 16, 2011)

Ed, GM and GS modules are much more easyer to use than Symphobia..... . :-D


----------



## Ed (May 16, 2011)

germancomponist @ Mon May 16 said:


> Ed, GM and GS modules are much more easyer to use than Symphobia..... . :-D



... and sound like crap..


----------



## germancomponist (May 16, 2011)

Smile,

but still let us wait for a first demo from EW. 

Without joking, I think it will sound awesome.


----------



## eschroder (May 16, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

Not sure if mentioned yet, Audio Impressions brass seems to shaping up nicely...

http://www.audioimpressions.com/overview/brillanti


----------



## Ed (May 16, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



eschroder @ Mon May 16 said:


> Not sure if mentioned yet, Audio Impressions brass seems to shaping up nicely...
> 
> http://www.audioimpressions.com/overview/brillanti



Well personally Ive only ever heard one demo where their stuff sounded decent


----------



## jamwerks (May 17, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



james7275 @ Mon May 16 said:


> ...True legato sampled at 3 dynamics throughout the range? This is the minimum needed to cover all bases."



Yes, 3 layers are necessary. That’s a lot of samples, but needed. VSL only has 2 afaik.


----------



## Hicks (May 17, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



james7275 @ Mon May 16 said:


> Important considerations in a 2011 orchestral brass library
> 
> Does it have different size sections and solo instruments that all play the same articulations, so you can split parts and be able to use all articulations and dynamics whether it is a solo, 2 players or full section?



This is the most interesting question.
Brass are usually used in divisi. If you have 4 trombones for example, they will rarely play at unisson. This is why for me VSL Dimension Brass was the best solution I was thinking for Brass actually.
Even if Cinebrass sounds pretty good, the fact that they were recorded as an ensemble makes me go away.
Ih HB permits divisi, it's another story. However Play still seems to be a pain in the ass.


----------



## noiseboyuk (May 17, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



Hicks @ Tue May 17 said:


> Even if Cinebrass sounds pretty good, the fact that they were recorded as an ensemble makes me go away.



Don't forget that there are also solo instruments with polyphonic legato in CB. Not the same as Dimenson Brass' approach, but it could work well for some parts and have the great CB sound.


----------



## Hicks (May 17, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

This is true, even if it will create some non homogenous sound.
For example, let's split horns per 2*2
They Play: C / F then D / F then E / E

First thing, it is impossible to do with ensemble patches as it will be considered as four horns playing C and four playing F.
So let's move to polyphonic legato, it will be one playing C and one playing F. Not satisfactory neither.
So we have one solution:
Using solo instrument for this divisi line with polyphonic legato but it will be only 1*1 horns vs the 2*2 expected. Moreover, when moving to the E played at unisson, we could use ensemble patch but we would move from 2 horns played divisi to 4 horns played unisson.
Second solution is to keep solo instrument but with polyphonic legato I guess by hitting the E key, one solo instrument will stop and the E would be played by the other solo instrument. So We will hear only a solo isntrument :( So let's use 2 different layers, one for solo instrument 1 and the other for solo instrument 2. Ok we will have 2 horns playing the E (do not forget we wanted 4) and get some phasing (but get rid of it by changing ER or EQ).

This is why I think Dimension Brass has a revolutionnary concept and have my preference for the moment.
But I will wait until HB and CB to be released to make a definitive statement.


----------



## Mike Connelly (May 17, 2011)

I don't see a library that doesn't have every possible articulation and combination as "compromised" at all. Whatever is in the library, get it all just right.

If a library that is less ambitious in scope sounds great and tweaks the programming to perfection, they can always follow up with an expansion pack with more articulations. I'll gladly take that over a "kitchen sink" library that's so big that the bugs can't be worked out in a year after release.

Personally, I'm less interested in a bunch of different unison sizes than a second soloist. 2 trumpet unison isn't nearly as flexible as having a second solo trumpet that can either double the first or split off to different parts.

And with things like 1/2/3 players you do have the option of adding those together to make 4/5/6 players, but are the 1/2/3 all different players? If you put them all together are you getting six different players or three doubled up?


----------



## tabulius (May 18, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

In case somebody missed this: http://youtu.be/oeogtxDedT4

Cinesamples posted an "Official Patch Runthrough", where you get a pretty good idea of the sample content and usability.


----------



## noiseboyuk (May 21, 2011)

Wonder who will be first to post prices - HB or CB? I suspect they're both waiting for the other. I guess they'll both now be waiting til their actual release so as not to show their hand early. I'd expect both to just suddenly appear one day, pretty much... I know with CB their in the hands of NI so posting a release date is pretty pointless. And even EW know their reputation with dates....

It is gonna be very interesting. I just know that HB will come with demos that will blow our socks off. The more I think about it, a lot is riding on the success of Play 3 ("any day now" Nick wrote a couple of days ago!). If they price HB aggressively and have fixed loading and performance issues, it'll be a formidable prospect for sure.

Even so, I'm very confident CB will be a hit. People love the sound, the playability, Kontakt. I'm sure there's room for these two to coexist, it's just the others that might get squeezed.


----------



## spikescott (May 21, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

I'm with Hicks here. I really love Cinesamples sound, but I'm looking for divisi so I can write properly and achieve the correct sizing and balance. 

That's why I love LASS so much, it really gives me the flexibilty I need with strings and I love the sound (I know some find it harsh, but for me it can be very authentic with a little eq & verb). Wivi too has the flexibilty - but with Wivi it's a trade of between enourmous playability & flexibilty and basic sound quality. 

I'm waiting to see if Andrew K will indeed develop LASB. 

Having said all that I'll probably get Cinebrass, I love Mike & Mike's work. Watching for the next move from East-West too...


----------



## Rob Elliott (May 21, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

My gut is telling me that when our 'livelihoods' depend on having all tools necessary - having both CB and HB may be a reality. We know CB will be useful (from all the excellent 'naked' demos) - I suspect Nick and crew will also hit the mark with their offering.

The bottom line is free market has pushed both suppliers to their 'best'.


----------



## robibla (May 21, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

Yeah i think you are right. CineBrass sounds so insanely nice, and will make certain things much quicker. It'll be the best for single line melodies, but it will lack in brass choir situations because of no divisi. Playing chords with ensemble patches used to be ok back in the day, but we've been spoilt with divisi these days and 16horns playing a chord doesn't cut it anymore. :( I thought i might get way with using polyphonic solo legato horn/trumpets for divisi, but apparently they don't have mod crossfade. Really interested to hear HB demos


----------



## Gerd Kaeding (May 22, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



spikescott @ Sat May 21 said:


> ... Watching for the next move from East-West too...



... i.e. announcing a possible release date for HB ... http://soundsonline-forums.com/showpost.php?p=662547&postcount=70 (http://soundsonline-forums.com/showpost ... stcount=70) ...


----------



## noiseboyuk (May 22, 2011)

Wow it's gonna be close. EW should be knocking out some teasers by now really.

A sliding tombone I see as well... hmm...


----------



## Mike Connelly (May 23, 2011)

For chords, wouldn't using the solo patches as opposed to the section patches come closer to "divisi"?


----------



## robibla (May 23, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

yea but single dynamic layers is pretty limiting


----------



## Mike Connelly (May 23, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



robibla @ Mon May 23 said:


> yea but single dynamic layers is pretty limiting



Good point at least for the horns (from the demo it seems like there are layers on the trumpet, but it would be good to get clarification on that). I was going to ask if there are multiple dynamic layers on the solo short notes...but then I remembered the solo instruments don't seem to have shorts at all.


----------



## JohnG (May 23, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

sounds great -- 

Apropos your comment, Mike, he says in the video that he's not cross-fading the samples, but "morphing" them. So I wonder if this is some combo of the WIVI-type modeling approach with samples?

[I see now this is being discussed on a separate thread]


----------



## noiseboyuk (May 23, 2011)

Cinesamples and Greg are just brilliant at this stuff. I'm still grumpy over my Orchestral String Runs library cos it relies on Kontakt's timestretching, which is a bit rubbish. It really hampers use of the library.

By contrast, the timestretching is really good on CS and OTS. Similarly their morphing algorithm (as we're calling it) is wonderful. These are the things that make such a musical difference.


----------



## noiseboyuk (Jun 5, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

Just a little update on a couple of things I haven't seen posted here yet (may have missed them).

*KIRK HUNTER CONCERT BRASS II*

Looks like this is going to be a phased release, instrument by instrument, starting June 15th with the French Horns. Here's Kirk Hunter's email:



> Concert Brass 2 featuring TVEC 3 programming is soon going to be released. The French Horns (all 4 sections) will be available by June 15th if all goes as planned. Soon thereafter will come the Trumpets and the Trombones. And if you're worried that by purchasing each section separately you will pay more, you need not worry at all. For those of you who purchase each section, discounts will progress to the other sections as they become available. So buying later when everything is done will not save you.



I see their site has some new little articulation demos - http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/products_cbrs_ii.html . Still no prices though.

*HOLLYWOOD BRASS*

The latest at Soundsonline is that it's been pushed back a little til July 10th. Still no demos / official website info / price, DR has promised these over the next 4-6 weeks. Personally kinda surprised that they don't issue some teasers and full information at this point, I think we all know CineBrass is just moments away and it clearly ROCKS.

EDIT *CINEBRASS*

...speaking of which, just read Mike Patti's comment yesterday at the Cinesamples forum:



> The library has been uploaded to our system. We are still waiting on Serials from NI. We should get those on Monday (they don't work on weekends). As soon as we get those, we just put into system, and can release.
> 
> Keep in mind we said "late next week". But we'll do our best to surprise


----------



## jamwerks (Jun 5, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

Looking at the Kirk Hunter info, there are some (imo) positive aspects:

- divisions of solo, a2, a4 & a8. (haven’t seen a2 elsewhere!)
- 5 layers of sustain (VSL has 4)
- Mutes (Cinebrass no)
- auto divisi
- Rips

Maybe on the negative side, only 2 short notes where as 3 (if I’m not mistaken) in CineBrass and 4-5 in VSL. And the VSL samples can be time stretched for further control.

I’m looking for the most control over the attacks. That equals playability (realism) to me. /\~O


----------



## wst3 (Jun 5, 2011)

KH Diamond was my first "real" orchestral library, and truthfully, I'm still learning the ins and outs (I was going to say "mining the depths" but restrained myself!) I also have the cut down version of Concert Strings II (Pop/Rock Strings). So I guess I have a bias... I'm guessing that learning the new features in CS II and CB II will be a little easier than learning a new developer's approach.

That said, I think LASS and Cinebrass sound absolutely lovely. In a world where I was independently wealthy I'd own them all!

In this world I have to do things a little more carefully. There are two features in CB II that really intrigue me. The first is the IntervalLive, it sounds quite natural in the demos. I downloaded the Horn demo patch and it was very easy to use.

I'm also curious about the double and triple tongue attacks. Not sure how he did it, and it was not part of the demo patch, so time will tell.

The Divisi feature is becoming almost "normal", but I think it is important whether you are playing things in live or working from a scoring or sequencing tool.

Rips are fun, but having them means I'll probably overuse them! Come to think of it, when I played Horn I over used them... hmmm.

For whatever reason, KH has not set out to create the buzz the Cinesamples did. And the KH demos are not as compelling as the Cinebrass demos.

Based on the demos that are available the two libraries sound quite different, can't yet say one is better (can you ever), or even more applicable.

With no pricing announced on any of these it is really too early to start the final decision process. The good news is that I don't think I can make a poor choice!


----------



## Ed (Jun 5, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



noiseboyuk @ Sun Jun 05 said:


> EDIT *CINEBRASS*
> 
> ...speaking of which, just read Mike Patti's comment yesterday at the Cinesamples forum:
> 
> ...



AWWWW what? late next week? DANG IT I was reallly hoping it was going to be availabe on Monday :(


----------



## noiseboyuk (Jun 5, 2011)

By the sounds of things, Ed, late next week will be a worst-case scenario. Still sounds hopeful for Monday or Tuesday I'd say.


----------



## Audio Glitch (Jun 5, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

Looks like we got another one to ad to the war list  

http://www.samplelogic.com/fanfare.html (www.samplelogic.com/fanfare.html)

This is now one of my top choices this year simply because it's not the same old orchestral brass and because its from Sample Logic I know what to expect, hopefully they will release more demos and info soon. 

- GlItCh -
*Musician, Composer, Producer*


----------



## Ed (Jun 5, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



Audio Glitch @ Sun Jun 05 said:


> Looks like we got another one to ad to the war list
> 
> http://www.samplelogic.com/fanfare.html (www.samplelogic.com/fanfare.html)
> 
> ...



Doesn't seem like its trying to compete with CS or HB


----------



## noiseboyuk (Jun 5, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



Audio Glitch @ Sun Jun 05 said:


> Looks like we got another one to ad to the war list
> 
> http://www.samplelogic.com/fanfare.html (www.samplelogic.com/fanfare.html)
> 
> ...



Quite right, though as Ed says I don't know how much will be an overlap. Thus far, have to say, I'm far from convinced... I don't know what it is about Sample Logic, but their stuff always seems to underwhelm me compared to the competition. The teaser just sounds like synth pads, which is a really strange way to sell this particular library.


----------



## wst3 (Jun 5, 2011)

I don't know, as a recovering marching band geek I think it sounds pretty darned cool!


----------



## Audio Glitch (Jun 5, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



> Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:10 am
> I don't know, as a recovering marching band geek I think it sounds pretty darned cool!



I agree, Freaking Buffalo BIlls stadium and Skywalker scoring stage plus morphed instruments and the itnerface looks like Cinematic Guitars on crack. I dont know after purchasing Cinematic Guitars, I have faith its going to be killer. It just sucks cause I got to stayed glued to their site, :shock: hopefully they reveal more about the product soon.


* - GlItCh - *
*Musician, Composer, Producer*


----------



## Wunderhorn (Jun 5, 2011)

it is going to be quite interesting...

my criteria for a new brass library are (besides true legato)

- trombones with a really ballsy sound
- mutes and stopped articulations included
- divisi
- runs on kontakt

i am hoping particularly for LASB from audiobro, but i am open to be surprised by others as well. game on...


----------



## Craig Sharmat (Jun 6, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



Audio Glitch @ Sun Jun 05 said:


> > Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:10 am
> > I don't know, as a recovering marching band geek I think it sounds pretty darned cool!
> 
> 
> ...



Sock Puppet


----------



## Synesthesia (Jun 7, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



Craig Sharmat @ Tue Jun 07 said:


> Audio Glitch @ Sun Jun 05 said:
> 
> 
> > > Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:10 am
> ...




Sigh!!! :lol:


----------



## eschroder (Jun 8, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

East West just announced Hollywood Brass will be released July 10 for 795


----------



## Ed (Jun 8, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



eschroder @ Wed Jun 08 said:


> East West just announced Hollywood Brass will be released July 10 for 795



You know I wasnt going to get it... but thats a really good price lol... i'll wait till it comes down to 500 in some random sale within the year though :D


----------



## wesbender (Jun 8, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*



eschroder @ Wed Jun 08 said:


> East West just announced Hollywood Brass will be released July 10 for 795



With a gold version featuring all articulations for $495.

I must say that I'm pleasantly surprised at how low it's priced.

Here's to hoping PLAY 3 is as efficient as they claim it'll be...


----------



## MikeH (Jun 8, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

All these libraries are great, but come on...where's the Stacy Hedger trumpet solo library???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVdfqEmGb8Y


----------



## nicoroy123 (Jun 8, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

Comparison between CineBrass and Hollywood Brass...

http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/show ... tcount=147


----------



## noiseboyuk (Jun 8, 2011)

*Re: Brass wars*

Well, that pricing is as aggressive as I suspected (and cannily waiting til CineSamples showed their hand by, well, releasing their library!)

The articulation comparison is impressive enough - http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/show ... tcount=147 . I was expecting more jazz artics, very limited there, but otherwise it's incredibly comprehensive. But but but but... I VERY strongly suspect it will be nowhere near as quick and easy to use, even if the sound is as good. Also 8gb of drive space on an SSD vs 150gb is another huge productivity bonus, add in Play yadda yadda.

Daniel's CineBrass video really is very very impressive. Pulling off what he did there with Hollywood Brass... 1 day vs 1 hour, perhaps?! And even that is missing the point, perhaps. One of the best things about that video is seeing how that multi inspired the whole brass line, pretty complex stuff but it lives on 2 midi channels and was played in uber-quick. That, right there, is golden. It seems to positively aid composition - as opposed to getting in the way. [in the interests of fairness I should of course recognise that there is still a lot unknown about HB, but I'm assuming they will follow similar methodology to HS, given it is part of the same series].

I guess I won't be alone in suspecting that CineBrass will be the day to day workhorse, Hollywood Brass you'll turn to when you really need to.


----------



## Mike Connelly (Jun 9, 2011)

With the flurry of announcments in the last couple days, maybe a better title would be Brass Arms Race?

I'm definitely excited about the drum corps library as well, even though it's a different category I can see it being really useful either on its own or layered in with an orchestral brass library to give it extra oomph.


----------



## Rob Elliott (Jun 9, 2011)

With the prices announced from HB - looks like many will have both - BUT - for me, HB will push me earlier to spend a few bucks on an updated 'brass' farm unit (equipped with SSD's). So really the library's true cost is much higher (I was planning on replacing this farm unit in 9-12 months anyway - just pushes up my schedule - should HB be that good and the new Play 3 engine is solid.


----------



## tripit (Jun 9, 2011)

I'm sure that HB will sound killer - no doubt there. But, again - unless Play 3 also offers up some significant user functionality changes, we're still stuck with a primitive, non flexible (one art per midi channel, non cc assignable) and clumsy Play. CB by comparison, looks to be super user friendly and playable. 

I hope that EW starts taking Play's functionality to heart - IMHO it's the weakest link in their products.


----------



## Mike Connelly (Jun 9, 2011)

PLAY 3 offers little if any functionality changes (EW has said this repeatedly, I'm not leaking any info from the beta), it's pretty much all optimization.


----------



## jamwerks (Jun 9, 2011)

Yeah HB may well be an all around winner (sound, price, completeness, etc.)

What the skinny on DVZ Brass? Any announced ETA?


----------



## Ed (Jun 9, 2011)

jamwerks @ Thu Jun 09 said:


> Yeah HB may well be an all around winner (sound, price, completeness, etc.)



It remains to be seen how easy to use it is.



> What the skinny on DVZ Brass? Any announced ETA?



LOLOLOL.. Sorry Im a douchbag.


----------



## tripit (Jun 9, 2011)

Ed @ Thu Jun 09 said:


> jamwerks @ Thu Jun 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah HB may well be an all around winner (sound, price, completeness, etc.)
> ...



Agreed.


----------



## Danny_Owen (Jun 9, 2011)

Part of what is persuading me towards HB at the moment is that they have HS as well, and both are such in-depth libraries. Even though I don't have HS yet, I want as many sections as possible from the same company.

I used to use EWQLSO Platinum exclusively on every single project I had, using the mid mics to track, bouncing them, and then switching mics, bouncing them etc. It was a faff- but God, did the mix sound great. In context, even most of the legato stuff went unnoticed, it was only when the layers thinned out that it fell apart slightly.

Since I've stopped using EWQLSO as my main library my legato, expression and realism for each individual section has vastly improved but my mixing has gone SEVERELY downhill, and I don't think it's through any fault of my own. I'm not a terrible mixer in general (though not especially great either), but trying to get samples that were recorded in anechoic chambers, mixed with samples recorded in small-mid size studios, mixed with samples recorded in larger studios right through to concert halls, all from different companies, all to try and balance perfectly is a f**king difficult task. It comes out sounding not quite right and it's down entirely to the way things were recorded, and it's a very laborious and skilful process to get it all sounding just right. 

Most of the legendary midi orchestrators who get mentioned in the forum a lot have been using private libraries, most of which were recorded on a scoring stage, with legato etc. I think part of the reason that Cinebrass is doing so well right now is that we've NEVER had a publicly available brass library recorded on a scoring stage, period. EWQLSO and Project Sam used a concert hall, Vienna used their little studio, Sample Modelling used their anechoic chamber. And the difference in sound is just incredible.

To be honest, if EWQLSO had been recorded on a scoring stage and had recorded legato but hadn't had any of the extra features of HS or HB, I'd still be using it today without question. There's something undeniably 'right' about the sound of sections being from using the same company, recorded in position and mixed with the idea of creating a perfect orchestra. I'm personally sick of trying to mix things which were just never meant to work together- I just want to write music! 

To get great orchestral mixes for poor-okish mixers I really believe multiple mics are essential to cut out a lot of the hard work (blending libraries I think needs a very well treated acoustic mixing room to do anyway, which most of us don't have). I've heard so, so many bad orchestral mixes (my own included) on midi orchestrations, largely with only 1 mic selected and bad EQ and reverb usage to boot. The very best of the best can make that work. Most of us, lets be honest, can't (at least, not to the extent we'd like).

Anywayyyy

With all that said, what I've been looking for since my good old days of EWQLSO is a library with multiple mics (so I have to worry a lot less about the mix), all sections of the orchestra covered, and all the articulations I need. EW is the only company that seems to share this vision. For that reason, I hope PLAY 3 works like a charm, HB turns out brilliantly and that it all comes together. 

All my hopes are banked on you guys, don't let me down!


----------



## Mike Connelly (Jun 10, 2011)

Danny, they have a demo (and I assume at one point there will be one for the brass as well). I'd definitely recommend trying it out for the ten days.


----------



## noiseboyuk (Jun 18, 2011)

I know some people are waiting for the HB demos and / or Play 3 feedback before deciding which way to jump, but I have another question. Is anyone waiting for LASB before jumping? And a more hypothetical one... if Audiobro announced LASB would be out in, say, 2 months, would they then wait then?

We know almost nothing about LASB at the moment - it could be months or even years away. I'm not sure what the advantage is from Audiobro's perspective of complete silence though... people can't chose it if they don't know if and when it's coming!

Likewise - anyone waiting on any of the other libraries?


----------



## Tino Danielzik (Jun 18, 2011)

If Audiobro announce LASB will be out in 2 months I would definitely wait.

But Andrew K from Audiobro is a smart guy, and while everyone is currently talking about Brass, it would be a clever move to release his Woodwind library LASW.

Tino


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## noiseboyuk (Jun 28, 2011)

FYI, Kirk Hunter's French Horn ensembles is now released for $99. In the end, I couldn't make the trial version work too well for me so I'll be passing, but there was a lot there to admire.

I finally bought CineBrass. What a tone! I'm still experimenting with all the different possibilities for mapping to see which I like the best. It's super-light for me resource-wise too. The basics are all there right now and are fabulous, and really think that Pro will launch it into the stratosphere.


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## jamwerks (Jun 28, 2011)

Pretty impressive stuff. Seems very well though out to quickly get results. My first KH purchase! o=<


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## Simon Ravn (Jun 28, 2011)

His website is extremely confusing, or is it just me? I see the "French horns ensembles now available" on the front page. I click it, then I get directed to a page called "Studio Concert Brass 2". At the same time I read on the front page that "Individual sections now availble". So.. where do I read/listen to demos from the "French horns ensembles" I just clicked on? There is no library called "French horns ensembles", nor does there seem to be any demos of it. There are demos of "Concert Brass 2", but how do I know that those "French horns ensembles" are part of that? And how do I buy just the french horns? His shop lists about 100 different bundles with "half divisions", "quarter divisions" (!??!!), "solo divisions" and what not. 

I just gave up right there.

EDIT: I found my way, about 10 pages down in the store, a yellow sign alerted me about the french horns ensembles. So there.. I can buy them. But the demos... I guess the "Universal logo" demo is using those horns or...?

If he wants to sell his products, I think he should consider simplifying his website and make it easier to find out what you are purchasing - and cut down on his options


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## marcotronic (Jun 28, 2011)

Simon Ravn @ Tue Jun 28 said:


> His website is extremely confusing, or is it just me? I see the "French horns ensembles now available" on the front page. I click it, then I get directed to a page called "Studio Concert Brass 2". At the same time I read on the front page that "Individual sections now availble". So.. where do I read/listen to demos from the "French horns ensembles" I just clicked on? There is no library called "French horns ensembles", nor does there seem to be any demos of it. There are demos of "Concert Brass 2", but how do I know that those "French horns ensembles" are part of that? And how do I buy just the french horns? His shop lists about 100 different bundles with "half divisions", "quarter divisions" (!??!!), "solo divisions" and what not.
> 
> I just gave up right there.
> 
> ...



+1 ! That´s exactly what I thought...

Marco


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## jamwerks (Jun 28, 2011)

Simon Ravn @ Tue Jun 28 said:


> If he wants to sell his products, I think he should consider simplifying his website



Yes it’t quite confusing. He must spend all his time programming in Kontakt. There are things listed there (trombone ensembles, etc.) that have a "buy" button, but that I haven’t heard them as even being ready!


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## MattatAMG (Jun 28, 2011)

You should visit AMG-Samples-com and take a listen to Kick-Ass Brass! too. Obviously a lot of it come down to personal taste, but very few people don't love KAB...

No bells or whistles, it just sounds great.

Cheers - Matt


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jun 29, 2011)

I'm actually only impressed with CineBrass when it comes to stacatto's. The legato to me doesn't sound right at all based on the demos they have.

Given the price, I'm waiting for HB demos THEN we can really compare.


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## Udo (Jun 29, 2011)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Thu Jun 30 said:


> I'm actually only impressed with CineBrass when it comes to stacatto's. The legato to me doesn't sound right at all based on the demos they have.
> 
> Given the price, I'm waiting for HB demos THEN we can really compare.


I too was somewhat surprised about the CB furore. Some demos sound very good, but it is a rather limited product. Yes, I know the Pro version is coming, but looking at the articulation list of the imminent HB Gold at less than $100 more than the released CB ...... I think waiting would've been prudent (unless you've got a lot of cash to burn)!


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## Ed (Jun 29, 2011)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Wed Jun 29 said:


> I'm actually only impressed with CineBrass when it comes to stacatto's. The legato to me doesn't sound right at all based on the demos they have.
> 
> Given the price, I'm waiting for HB demos THEN we can really compare.



The legato sounds perfect... in certain circumstances.

i plan on getting HB Gold and with that and CB I get the best of both worlds. I think if HB was Kontakt based I think I would have probably waited and only bought that tbh.


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## noiseboyuk (Jun 29, 2011)

Udo @ Thu Jun 30 said:


> Nathan Allen Pinard @ Thu Jun 30 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm actually only impressed with CineBrass when it comes to stacatto's. The legato to me doesn't sound right at all based on the demos they have.
> ...



Yes the articulation list is enormous for HB compared to CB, but don't forget there are a lot of factors at work here. Here's a list of reasons off the top of my head why I went for CineBrass (and not in the first rush either):

1 - Kontakt (and I'm on the Play 3 beta team...)
2 - Light, easily installed on the laptop as well
3 - Sound is killer
4 - Delighted to support the nicest guys in the business, and encourage their open and inclusive way of working
5 - Want to support the union direction for future sample libraries
6 - Very playable and easily customisable
7 - Know that future expansion is in the works
8 - Support is absolutely outstanding

I'm dead keen to see how HB turns out, and there's a good chance I'll get it sooner or later. But I said that about HS too... and I've still not bought it, and possibly never will now. I'm so happy with LASS and LASS LS, I just don't feel the need. I'm certainly not prejudging, but history could repeat itself for me.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jun 30, 2011)

> The legato sounds perfect... in certain circumstances.



Do you have a demo in mind you could link? The ones on the site don't do justice for me.


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## Mike Connelly (Jun 30, 2011)

Guy, to that list I'd add track record of how buggy patches are and how quickly they get fixed.


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## Ed (Jun 30, 2011)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Thu Jun 30 said:


> > The legato sounds perfect... in certain circumstances.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have a demo in mind you could link? The ones on the site don't do justice for me.



I pulled the start of Jurassic Park theme off YT and then replayed that first horn melody. The first thing you hear is Jurassic park then at 17 Seconds you hear CS play the same thing. Remember the CS solo horn is only 1 dynamic so it could be closer still to the example if it had a couple more dynamic layers and if I had added some ambient hall FX

I would say the legato works well with long, wide intervals as I think this demonstrates.

http://www.edbradshawmusic.com/CS_Solo_Horn_Legato_1st-JurassicParkClip_2nd_CSSoloHorn.mp3 (www.edbradshawmusic.com/CS_Solo_Horn_Le ... loHorn.mp3)


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 1, 2011)

Yeah, I agree - I think the CB legato is terrific for those kinds of lines.

HB. I'm not sure how many other ways there are of saying "where are all the demos"? So - where are all the demos? 9 days to go. Apparently.


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## Dominik Raab (Jul 1, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Fri 01 Jul said:


> Yeah, I agree - I think the CB legato is terrific for those kinds of lines.
> 
> HB. I'm not sure how many other ways there are of saying "where are all the demos"? So - where are all the demos? 9 days to go. Apparently.



The 10th is a Sunday... are they really planning to start shipping a product on a Sunday? :D


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## dannthr (Jul 1, 2011)

How confident are you guys that it will ship on time?


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## Dominik Raab (Jul 1, 2011)

dannthr @ Fri 01 Jul said:


> How confident are you guys that it will ship on time?



To be honest: Not really.
But I'm still hoping. And hoping.
Oh dear, I'll be disappointed.


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## artinro (Jul 1, 2011)

They say they're still on track. An admin posted this morning that they are still good to go for the 10th...or, I guess, 11th. I guess we'll find out soon.


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 1, 2011)

dannthr @ Fri Jul 01 said:


> How confident are you guys that it will ship on time?



Thing is, they do keep doing this. I remember a rather endearing Doug Rogers post where he admits they are "hopeless" at release schedules. So I'm not sure why they keep putting themselves through it! I can only imagine they're working practically 24/7 to make this date. If they think July 10th say "by September" and hopefully surprise people on an early release, with demos ready and everything. That's what Cinesamples did - they gave rough guidelines and near the end I seem to remember saying "by the end of next week" - obviously this was a safe promise as in fact it was out at the beginning. It's a simple enough trick!


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 4, 2011)

Seriously... a week to go and NOTHING? Truly bizarre. I'm sure somewhere they said they people would have in informed choice - ie demos - during the pre-order period.


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## artinro (Jul 4, 2011)

I'm sure they'll have more info/demos out sometime this week. Remember that this was a holiday weekend in the U.S.


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## Nick Phoenix (Jul 4, 2011)

Right now we just want to make the release date, so no demos till the week of the 11th. I can't do both and make the release.

The sample data at 156GB has been finalized and encoded. Interface is finalized. Programs are not done. 

Also Thomas is in Prague overseeing the recording of a new Two Steps album, so he won't have any demos right away.


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 4, 2011)

Well - a patch walk through when you can would be more valuable to me than even the mighty Thomas J's demos!


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## james7275 (Jul 4, 2011)

Good to finally know when the demos are coming, that way I'm not jumping out of bed every morning Thinking today could be the day.


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## jamwerks (Jul 5, 2011)

Yes, a complete patch walk through would be enough for me to place an order !


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## andreasOL (Jul 5, 2011)

...just seen: Kirk Hunter has again revamped his homepage. It's simpler and easier now to navigate and to see what's available and you see which Buy buttons work (because the others have been removed :D ).

Cheers,
Andreas


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## organix (Jul 5, 2011)

I'm sure the demos on HB will be better, but how much this really says about the quality and usabality on the lib?

HB comes with tons of instruments and articulations, with many Gigabytes on sample data and with some modes of expressions that you've never seen in a brass library.
But is more always the better choice? 

It's fine if you have pages full of articulations listed in the instrument browser and maybe you'll find exact the one you need. But before, you will have to search, listen, compare and decide. A very tedious and time consuming process.

It would be nice if you could combine the articulations in a very flexible way to improve usability and to build your own multis. But PLAY isn't as flexible. You can't define own keyswitches, own controller technics, own articulation blendings or other very intuitive playing styles. 
Instead of recording more and more sample data and develop more and more patches, EW should really improve their PLAY system with an intuitive and flexible user interface in mind.

For example the matrix system in VSL's VI shows a very flexible way to combine all the good stuff of the library. 

To date, PLAY is far behind of Kontakt or VI. 

I'm sure that EW HB will be one ot the best sounding and most complete brass libraries on the market. Cinebrass maybe, will have no chance on every comparison against HB. 

But, when I saw Cinebrass, I bought it. CB isn't very expensive, is not overloaded, has a really intuitive concept and sounds good.  

Often it's a decision on personally needs and not what is generally the best.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 5, 2011)

andreasOL @ Tue Jul 05 said:


> ...just seen: Kirk Hunter has again revamped his homepage. It's simpler and easier now to navigate and to see what's available and you see which Buy buttons work (because the others have been removed :D ).
> 
> Cheers,
> Andreas



While I am looking forward to HB, for $99, Kirk's new Concert Brass II French Horns are a total no-brainer for Kontakt users.


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## dcoscina (Jul 5, 2011)

organix @ Tue Jul 05 said:


> Instead of recording more and more sample data and develop more and more p
> 
> I'm sure that EW HB will be one ot the best sounding and most complete brass libraries on the market. Cinebrass maybe, will have no chance on every comparison against HB.
> 
> ...



CineBrass is a little deceptive in its simplicity. Using that realtime mode you can actually get quite a bit of variety in note length out of it. I'm constantly impressed with the tone but now as I dig deeper, I'm also impressed with its functionality. I own a lot of EW and VSL products and enjoy them, but I'm becoming a very enthusiastic advocate for Cinesamples' philosophy. Their stuff is very playable and editable. 

HB is a pass for me at this point and time. I have no doubt the sound will be killer as many have said. I wish Doug and Nick and Thomas all the best success on their library. For now, I'm a CineSamples' fan because of their library's tone and low footprint.


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## Gerd Kaeding (Jul 6, 2011)

HB release update :

http://soundsonline-forums.com/showpost.php?p=669344&postcount=301 (http://soundsonline-forums.com/showpost ... tcount=301)



EDIT :

Jay just posted it over here :
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... =1#3573705


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## Danny_Owen (Jul 6, 2011)

That's cool, I'm on holiday till the 17th anyway


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## marcotronic (Jul 11, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Tue Jul 05 said:


> andreasOL @ Tue Jul 05 said:
> 
> 
> > ...just seen: Kirk Hunter has again revamped his homepage. It's simpler and easier now to navigate and to see what's available and you see which Buy buttons work (because the others have been removed :D ).
> ...



Yeah! Definitely! I just bought Kirk Hunter Concert Brass2 French Horns Ensemble today and it´s pure playing fun! I like the playability much much more than the current state of CineBrass (waiting for the first update). Really nice programming as far as I have experienced yet. You can play French horns lines just as you "would expect" - I think that´s the best way to describe it 

For 99,- USD really a no-brainer. Don´t actually understand why that Kirk Hunter stuff isn´t very much talked about / present here!

May do a little demo if I find some time...

Marco


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## Rob Elliott (Jul 11, 2011)

Marco - I can't put a finer point on it but something bugs me about the FH 'true legato'. It just sounds like a 'script' and not 'true' legato samples. You have it - play it - do you get that feeling at all?

How expressive is the solo FH?


Posting a bare line or two would be great if you have the time.


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## marcotronic (Jul 11, 2011)

Hi Rob,

I´m actually not a brass player - so I can´t really comment on how "true" that legato feeling is  But I liked what I've heard so far. In it´s default setting there´s a bit too much glissando/portamento for my taste but you can fiddle with the setting quite a bit and change it e.g. so that this portamento-thingy only happens when playing larger intervals, you can set the timing for it and if it´s only playing when playing up- or downwards e.g.

There doesn´t seem to be a Solo FH as it´s just an Ensemble (8/4/2 FHs) - what´s a bit strange is that in the "All Articulations" Patch there are missing samples (as I´ve seen now) - exactly those FH solo samples. I guess they are used when using that Auto Divisi feature and playing with a quarter Division (2 FH) - I would expect dividing two note played into two separate FHs. But there is only silence when I play a chord here. That seems to be a bug.

I´ve already contacted the support. Let´s see what they say 

Marco


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## ozmorphasis (Jul 11, 2011)

Rob Elliott @ Mon Jul 11 said:


> Marco - I can't put a finer point on it but something bugs me about the FH 'true legato'. It just sounds like a 'script' and not 'true' legato samples. You have it - play it - do you get that feeling at all?
> 
> How expressive is the solo FH?
> 
> ...



+1

Marco, if you feel it is a no brainer, could you post a quick example that you feel demonstrates the sound? While the price is low, I just listened to the demos on KH's site and found the sound totally unusable for my tastes. I would love to give it a chance, but a no-brainer that never makes it into an actual project is in fact $99 too expensive for me.


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## jamwerks (Jul 11, 2011)

marcotronic @ Mon Jul 11 said:


> I would expect dividing two note played into two separate FHs. But there is only silence when I play a chord here.



I imagine that if you’ve got 2 horn going, it can’t “divisi“ any more since that would be solo horn, which apparently isn’t ready.

I do share Marco’s enthusiasm with it’s playability. I really like the way the whole thing has been thought out. I should have a little sometime audio next week !


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## marcotronic (Jul 11, 2011)

Kirk already provided a patch/fix an hour or so after I emailed him - that´s some quick support! Wow! 

Gonna post some audio examples, too. Guess next week.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 11, 2011)

OK, here goes , 2 times through, little cc-ing, no EQ or verb, 5 minutes so please, no sweeping judgements on the ,library as that would be unfair.

http://soundcloud.com/jay-asher/kh-concert-horns-ii


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## Ashermusic (Jul 11, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Mon Jul 11 said:


> OK, here goes , 2 times through, little cc-ing, no EQ or verb, 5 minutes so please, no sweeping judgements on the ,library as that would be unfair.
> 
> http://soundcloud.com/jay-asher/kh-concert-horns-ii



And with verb.

http://soundcloud.com/jay-asher/kh-conc ... -ii-w-verb


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## Ed (Jul 11, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Mon Jul 11 said:


> Ashermusic @ Mon Jul 11 said:
> 
> 
> > OK, here goes , 2 times through, little cc-ing, no EQ or verb, 5 minutes so please, no sweeping judgements on the ,library as that would be unfair.
> ...



:shock: 

Wow..... just wow..... seriously?? Not far off Korg Trition quality if you ask me. This is a new product is it? SAM Horns was ten times as good as this sounds and that came out in 2002 if I recall. Even if this was free I wouldn't download it, I wouldnt even want it cluttering up my HD so you'd have to pay me to take it. Even if we were talking 5 - 6 years ago, the story would be the same! Korg Trition sounds are quite playable as well, I used to use them to mess around on before Symphobia, but thats what tends to happen the more synthy your sounds are, it doesn't matter as much if you play stacc or sustain as it all sounds just as bad. What about marcato? Who cares, it all sounds the same. 

But hey if you like em, good for you I guess! If you really cant tell that this sounds worse than samples over 10 years old, then great, I mean it certainly is cheaper being easy to please.

There, my controversial comment for the day that will no doubt infuriate certain fans of certain libraries. I should take a nap after that.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 11, 2011)

Ed @ Mon Jul 11 said:


> :shock:
> 
> Wow..... just wow..... seriously?? Not far of Korg Trition quality if you ask me. This is a new product is it? SAM Horns was ten times as good as this sounds and that came out in 2002 if I recall. Even if this was free I wouldn't download it, even if we were talking 5 - 6 years ago. Korg Trition sounds are quite playable as well, I used to use them to mess around on before Symphobia, but thats what tends to happen the more synthy your sounds are, it doesn't matter as much if you play stacc or sustain as it all sounds just as bad.
> 
> But hey if you like em, good for you I guess! If you really cant tell that this sounds worse than samples over 10 years old, then great, I mean it certainly is cheaper being easy to please.



You are entitled to your opinion but since you have never posted anything I thought sounded very good, I will simply say we have different taste and let it go at that.

And once again, this is just a couple of quick passes through.


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## Ed (Jul 11, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Mon Jul 11 said:


> You are entitled to your opinion but since you have never posted anything I thought sounded very good, I will simply say we have different taste and let it go at that.
> 
> And once again, this is just a couple of quick passes through.



Thank god! If you thought what did sounded good I would be very worried indeed!



> And once again, this is just a couple of quick passes through.



Again, SAM Horns sounds better than this and that is just shy of 10 years old. If you cant hear that, great! Its just good to know you're in the tiny minority or else I'd have to seriously consider if I hear things differently to other people and I wouldn't be able to trust myself. I expect more from developers.


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 11, 2011)

Why don't you say what you mean, Ed?!!!

Tell you one thing - Soundcloud is just awful, awful, awful. I regularly use 192k mp3s and can't hear anything wrong with 'em - they usually sound absolutely fine to me, so I'm not exactly the most critical set of ears out there, but Soundcloud - consistently - produces unlistenable results. Even the mighty Tonehammer use it and I just don't understand why. It's really not doing this demo any favours Jay - how about trying The Box?

I had the demo version of the horns - I liked the relatively smooth transition on the modwheel, certainly better than VSL or EW SO on that score. But I could never get the legato sounding totally natural... I was hearing strange fades and all sorts (it was still a WIP at this stage of course, it might have improved by now). Overall I have to say - tonally CineBrass is in another league for me. So far Cinesamples have made a very strong case for the argument that you need a great space to get the best tone out of brass.


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## Ed (Jul 11, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Mon Jul 11 said:


> Why don't you say what you mean, Ed?!!!



:lol: I just figure why beat around the bush, you know? Others are going to look at this thread maybe newbies too and if we're nice to developers that are putting out new products that sound worse than products out 10 years ago they might get a wrong impression of what is considered good, instead I think they deserve harsh criticism if they deserve it quite frankly. I mean we're meant to be pushing the limits of sampling, not going backwards. We wouldnt put up with it from Spitfire, CS, East West or VSL, we'd think they'd royally lost their minds if they released new brass that sounded like this. But because its Kirk Hunter there's this almost this unspoken expectation that we're meant to all play nice and pretend there isn't anything wrong with the slow child in the corner of the room smashing wooden blocks into his head. 

Hmm, I did it again didn't I? Ok, Ive said my opinions, others can have their say 

Though I will say I'm sure KH is a really nice guy, but I can only judge the quality of the libraries.



> Tell you one thing - Soundcloud is just awful, awful, awful.



Hmm, well I don't agree... I use soundcloud and theres no way it can mess the sound up this badly, I've never experienced it that drastically altering the sound  Tonehammer sounds just fine to me and I cant hear any _significant _difference. I cant hear the difference between my mp3 tracks at 320k compared with what Soundcloud plays. Maybe it depends what codec you use or what bitrate you upload in, all I know is i cant hear this terrible soundcloud sound on anything of mine.


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## jamwerks (Jul 11, 2011)

Well Jay did go a little crazy with the mod wheel there.

And Ed’s ears have certainly gotten spoiled recently with Cinebrass, who’s tone has really raised the bar. Can’t wait to hear how HB compares to CB.


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## Ed (Jul 11, 2011)

jamwerks @ Mon Jul 11 said:


> And Ed’s ears have certainly gotten spoiled recently with Cinebrass, who’s tone has really raised the bar. Can’t wait to hear how HB compares to CB.



I really hate to poke my head back in again but just to clarify that isn't correct, it has nothing to do with CineBrass, even before VSL this would have been bad, even before the original East West Orchestra. If you listen to any of the old SAM Horns demos they are better than this by MILES and that is nearly 10 years old now.


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## germancomponist (Jul 11, 2011)

And don`t forget the upcoming Samplemodeling french horn!


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## jamwerks (Jul 11, 2011)

I don’t remember the SAM horns sound, but everybody talked well of them.


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## germancomponist (Jul 11, 2011)

jamwerks @ Mon Jul 11 said:


> Well Jay did go a little crazy with the mod wheel there..



I can imagine how his demo would sound, if he was using an equalizer, a compressor and a cool reverb setting... .


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## Ashermusic (Jul 11, 2011)

Ed @ Mon Jul 11 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Mon Jul 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Why don't you say what you mean, Ed?!!!
> ...



Actually on this forum it is just the opposite I am convinced. The minute it is revealed it is Kirk Hunter there is the expectation it will not be good. On OTHER forums, the opposite is true.

i don't think it is a coincidence that some newer members here are more receptive to his products. They simply do not have the same prejudices.

But hey, if Ed doesn't like it, he doesn't like it.

Anyway, one of the advantages of being 62 years old and having made money as a musician since you were 11 is you have your priorities straight. If I like the sound of a library, I probably can utilize it in a way that my clients will like and at the end of the day, that is what matters.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 11, 2011)

germancomponist @ Mon Jul 11 said:


> jamwerks @ Mon Jul 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Well Jay did go a little crazy with the mod wheel there..
> ...



Judging from the past. some here would like it and some would not, which is fine. The pattern has been that when I do so, I get a couple of positive comments, a couple of negative ones, and a few PMs or emails saying, "Jay i don't want to fight with these guys so i am not posting this in the thread, but personally I liked what you posted."


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## Ed (Jul 11, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Mon Jul 11 said:


> i don't think it is a coincidence that some newer members here are more receptive to his products. They simply do not have the same prejudices.



I know people who are impressed with Sound Canvas. Newbies dont know whats good.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 11, 2011)

Ed @ Mon Jul 11 said:


> Ashermusic @ Mon Jul 11 said:
> 
> 
> > i don't think it is a coincidence that some newer members here are more receptive to his products. They simply do not have the same prejudices.
> ...



Ed, to guys like me YOU are a newbie 

Anyone, the fact that they are new HERE doesn't mean they are new to doing this.


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## Ed (Jul 11, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Mon Jul 11 said:


> Ed, to guys like me YOU are a newbie.



Now you're just trying to provoke me right? And here I am trying to stay away. People like Maarten Spruijt were more talented 10 years ago than you or I will ever be. I hate to be a douchbag but since you decided to make this an issue I'll point out your greatest claim to fame has been a cheesey (mexican?) soap opera called Zorro that ran for 3 years in the early 90s that basically no one knows about and these other peculiar bunch of credits on your IMDB, yet you act like you are up there with the likes of Thomas Newman dishing out advice as if you know what you're talking about, so please, dont act like you're somehow above everyone here and say that just because you're old means you know more. The lack of anything interesting in your career despite your age actually works against your point, which might be considered a low blow but you're the one that said you think I dont know anything because I'm young and I've done nothing good. 

Now lets get back to the *real *brass wars before an admin has to reprimand us. o-[][]-o


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## Ashermusic (Jul 11, 2011)

Ed @ Mon Jul 11 said:


> Ashermusic @ Mon Jul 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed, to guys like me YOU are a newbie.
> ...



Actually, I was trying not to provoke you by stating that we simply had different taste but you were not content to leave it at that.

No, my career has not been like Thomas Newman's and I may indeed not be as talented as him or Martin but I have made a living for 40 years writing, teaching and performing music, writing books, etc without ever having to work a day job. I am what I am and people can assess me as they choose.

And please, if you have a record or professional accomplishment or demonstrated knowledge that I am perhaps not aware of other than just talk, point me to it and I will publicly apologize to you here.


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 11, 2011)

Saying it how you see it is fine when it comes to libraries, but Ed this seems a little to personal to me. Can't we keep the wars just to brass?!

Demos. I hope this isn't too tangential, but I sometimes think that there is quite a lot of hype and received wisdom in the sampling community. My sig says "there's always something more important to worry about than 24 bit" and it's 100% true. Of course soundcloud isn't a final delivery medium, but it is used to sell libraries and seriously... it massively compromises anything that it touches. I can hear the dreadful artifacts loud and clear. Even 128k mp3 through a half decent codec sounds like pristine CD next to this. I know what the KH CBII sounds like, and it isn't this. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's totally changed the timbre of the instrument or anything - it is what it is - but it sounds like it's being streamed down a 64k real media codec from 1998.

So I don't get it... we can obsess over minor changes in timbre between instruments, everyone clamours for 24 bit yet demos (even official ones) get posted using a borderline-unlistenable delivery medium. The Box is free and can handle proper bitrate mp3s or WAVs - if we're in the business of showcasing stuff to be critically evaluated, this is surely a better route?


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 11, 2011)

ok Jay and Ed, If you want to get into it do it by pm's, these are public attacks on each other and don't do either of you any favors.


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## dcoscina (Jul 11, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Mon Jul 11 said:


> You are entitled to your opinion but since you have never posted anything I thought sounded very good, I will simply say we have different taste and let it go at that.
> 
> And once again, this is just a couple of quick passes through.



Hmmm, gotta agree with Ed on this although I will articulate my sentiments in a much less spicy manner. The attack and sustain doesn't sound anything like real horns to me. As a brass player I'm a little confounded by this new library as I will also agree that things such as VSL's Epic Horns and more recently Dimension Brass as well as SAM Horns sound a lot more authentic. 

This sound almost reminds me of Emerson's phatt synth horn patch from "Touch and Go" from 1986. Perhaps that's a little much but the tone and timbre is not far off from it. I suppose if your client's like it, then that's what's important but I personally wouldn't use this sound or library for finished product recording. It sounds fake. 

Obviously some of this is personal preference. Some people love Wallander instruments but I find them not much better than synth versions of acoustic instruments. I do like and own Westgate Horns (funny that they don't get their due- they sound very good).


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## Ashermusic (Jul 12, 2011)

OK, once more into the fray

Kirk's horns have 3 sizes: 8, 4 and 1. The first example I posted was the 8 which are a little more aggressive tone. This does happen in my experience with bigger french horn sections, i.e Wagner.

Here is the same example but with the 4 horns. I have stripped out the mod wheel and expression and added a little verb so when you listen, listen as if you yourself were taking 1 pass at it with the intention of adding the controller info after the fact and adding whatever sculpting, automating, and processing you would do. 

I have taken Guy's suggestion and uploaded it to The Box instead of Soundcloud.

You either like it or you do not and either is fine with me. I only ask that you all spare me the "really, you like this?" kind of b.s. because as you have seen, I have little patience with it unless it is coming from someone whose work I greatly respect.

http://www.box.net/shared/eepam7431b5saq0s5if1


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## jamwerks (Jul 12, 2011)

Aren’t there actually 4 sizes: 8,4,2 & 1? Apparently the 1 (solo horn) isn’t out yet.


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## dcoscina (Jul 12, 2011)

I never challenged you on your listening tastes Jay, just that with reference to my own, they don't sound convincing. But I'm sure I'm one of those guys whose work you don't respect so take my amateur opinions for the penny that they are worth...

I will listen to your new post when I get home from work this evening though. Gotta keep a relatively open mind y'know.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 12, 2011)

dcoscina @ Tue Jul 12 said:


> I never challenged you on your listening tastes Jay, just that with reference to my own, they don't sound convincing. But I'm sure I'm one of those guys whose work you don't respect so take my amateur opinions for the penny that they are worth...
> 
> I will listen to your new post when I get home from work this evening though. Gotta keep a relatively open mind y'know.



You disagreed with me quite respectfully Dave and I have no problem with you at all. Your opinion is one I take more seriously than many others as you have posted some lovely things.


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## Mike Connelly (Jul 12, 2011)

On that example are the short notes a short articulation or a sus patch played short?


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## dcoscina (Jul 12, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Tue Jul 12 said:


> dcoscina @ Tue Jul 12 said:
> 
> 
> > I never challenged you on your listening tastes Jay, just that with reference to my own, they don't sound convincing. But I'm sure I'm one of those guys whose work you don't respect so take my amateur opinions for the penny that they are worth...
> ...



Well I try not to be mean. I think some of the things said in this thread are just hurtful to various parties and I don't think that's necessary. 

I have Kirk's cheapie orchestral library that I got for $99 and I used it quite a bit for sketching. I thought it sounded decent and much better than GPO for the purposes of getting a general sense of coloration. I don't use it much any more but it was decent. I still wouldn't use it for full blown finished quality cues though.


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## guydoingmusic (Jul 12, 2011)

I think John Williams would be afraid to post examples of his work on this forum. One word to sum it all up... DAMN!!



/brad


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## damstraversaz (Jul 12, 2011)

dcoscina @ Mon Jul 11 said:


> Some people love Wallander instruments but I find them not much better than synth versions of acoustic instruments..



I'm agree for sax and french horn. but playing the others instruments with a breath controler is an unique experience and , in my opinion, can give one of the best sound actually. with some practice, you can have some amazing result with cc1 and velocity too.
if you're using this intrument for non orchestral music, it's surely a good choice.

Damien


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## germancomponist (Jul 12, 2011)

Damien, the most important thing is always, how someone has played an instrument. With using a breath controller you can sound much better with a gm sound module than someone else who uses the best sounding library, but is not able to play the notes as a real player would play them..... . 

There are so many recordings on the market what are not recorded in the best quality, but the good players are recorded, and the sound seems to be not so much interesting....?!


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## organix (Jul 12, 2011)

I'm sure the KH Brass can sound better as demonstrated here by Jay. Maybe he composed this demo with very amount of time. 

But the demos on Kirks site are not even better. The scripts like SmartLegato, IntervalLive etc. may work very good, but the basic brass sound seems a little bit synthetic to me.


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 12, 2011)

Nice to hear it without artefacts, Jay!

It is still sounding a tad stilted. I was pretty impressed with the modwheel dynamics when I tried it - CineBrass is exemplary there, but KH was markedly better than, say, VSL in that regard. Maybe for the next demo, something to showcase that side of the lib?


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 12, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Tue Jul 12 said:


> Nice to hear it without artefacts, Jay!
> 
> It is still sounding a tad stilted. I was pretty impressed with the modwheel dynamics when I tried it - CineBrass is exemplary there, but KH was markedly better than, say, VSL in that regard. Maybe for the next demo, something to showcase that side of the lib?



Absolutely, as i said, now no cc1 or cc11, just played in 1 pass.

The truth is, I simply do not have time to do demos for Kirk that take me longer than 10 minutes. Between my regular work as a composer, arranger, teacher, working now on my 3rd Logic book, my column, beta testing for 4 companies, AND my EW part time gig, I am just a _teensy_ bit busy :lol:


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 12, 2011)

A nice problem to have, Jay! I hope someone less snowed-under can do a demo which features the dynamics. Of course, most libraries tend to sound fake if it's no dynamics at all, and this might explain a good deal of the negative reaction here. Like I say, I greatly prefer the tone of CineBrass, but CB2 is a decent effort imho.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jul 27, 2011)

Comparing the demos for HB and CB I'm actually kind of torn between both.

EW seems to do legato much better than CB, however CB to me at least seems far superior when it comes to stacatto. HB to me right now, seems to have some odd disjointed issues.

Of couse I wouldn't by either until hearing official demos. Because most user videos I've seen so far barely use the mod-wheel.


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## Darkforest408 (Jul 27, 2011)

i used the modwheel quite a lot on this small rendition of the Battlestar galatica theme using cinebrass.

I through the modwheel almost near the maximum value (horn section) on the second to last measure. the sustained low brass is nearer to the lowest value. there are some "crescendos" with the horn too. 

I don't have 1 16th of the talent that most members have here. I just starting messing around with orchestral mock-up tools last month, so just take it for what it is. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqX6MffYIyU


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## Elektroakoustika (Jul 27, 2011)

I was really hopeful for HB and almost actually had ordered the Gold version until I heard all the videos. I have since cancelled my order because like a few others, I'm pretty unsure about HB based off of the videos.

Overall I liked most of the legato but was not very impressed about any of the "leg accent" or "sustain accent" patches. Most of them sounded very unnatural to my ears. 

The portato patches were very nice, but I wish there was a way to control the dynamics via modwheel because the soft sound really could be powerful with dynamic control. Not sure if this is possible because it sounds like it was recorded with a small swell to it.

The shorts are a mixed bag. The horns were alright and the muted trombones and tuba sounded nice. But I'm still undecided about the trumpets as I feel like I haven't heard a good example of them yet. Nick's second attempt was better, but that was the 3 trumpets patch.

I'm really not sure about the trombones. Most of the stuff Nick played I didn't really feel was a very good representation of them.

I feel like I really haven't heard HB doing what brass do a lot, and that is articulated passages. I've heard a lot of legato, short stuff, and effects, but nothing that really showed me some aggressive articulated melodies or anything.

As for Cinebrass, I've listened to a lot of people play around with it and I think the sound is wonderful. I think the staccatos are very nice and the trombone sound is quite good. I'm just not convinced that they will be very flexible when it comes to certain line. Mike Patti's John Williams examples all have too much or too little space between certain notes and don't sound enough like the original music to convince me (even though the timbre of the instruments is dead on). Maybe Cinebrass Pro will address this.

Maybe being a trumpet player myself, I'm looking for the impossible in a brass library. But as for now I'm going to wait to see what demos come up for Hollywood Brass. If Thomas B. pumps out a killer track then I'll be more likely to jump in. I thought the brass in his Hollywood Strings demos (which I'm sure was a custom library) sounded quite good and was expecting HB to beat that sound. But right now I'm simply not convinced enough to throw my cash in the ring.

So let the battle rage on! :twisted:


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## NYC Composer (Jul 27, 2011)

The horns in the Youtube user video are the best I've ever heard. I'm not as sure about the other stuff yet, but I have a feeling as the demos come out, I'll be pretty impressed based on what I've heard so far.

My only issue is cost. Assuming one is a Mac user and buys HB and HS (Gold versions) for the very reasonable price of around a grand, one also has to add around $1400 for a tricked out PC slave with fast SSDS and, if one doesn't have it, $300 for VE Pro. It's around a $2700 investment, give or take a hundred....and that's just for Gold.

Cadillacs cost, so I'm certainly not bitching. I'm saying there are cost additives, especially if one is Mac based.


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## dcoscina (Jul 27, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> The horns in the Youtube user video are the best I've ever heard. I'm not as sure about the other stuff yet, but I have a feeling as the demos come out, I'll be pretty impressed based on what I've heard so far.
> 
> My only issue is cost. Assuming one is a Mac user and buys HB and HS (Gold versions) for the very reasonable price of around a grand, one also has to add around $1400 for a tricked out PC slave with fast SSDS and, if one doesn't have it, $300 for VE Pro. It's around a $2700 investment, give or take a hundred....and that's just for Gold.
> 
> Cadillacs cost, so I'm certainly not bitching. I'm saying there are cost additives, especially if one is Mac based.



Um, Larry you do know that YouTube example is CINEBRASS not Hollywood Brass, right?


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## Peter Alexander (Jul 27, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Tue Jul 12 said:


> OK, once more into the fray
> 
> Kirk's horns have 3 sizes: 8, 4 and 1. The first example I posted was the 8 which are a little more aggressive tone. This does happen in my experience with bigger french horn sections, i.e Wagner.
> 
> ...



Not bad.


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## andreasOL (Jul 28, 2011)

dcoscina @ Thu 28 Jul said:


> NYC Composer @ Wed Jul 27 said:
> 
> 
> > The horns in the Youtube user video are the best I've ever heard. I'm not as sure about the other stuff yet, but I have a feeling as the demos come out, I'll be pretty impressed based on what I've heard so far.
> ...



Was he referring to this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6xRyWjcUDM

Cheers,
Andreas


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## NYC Composer (Jul 28, 2011)

Yep, JDR's example of HB on YouTube. Sorry, should have been more specific.
And to be MORE specific-I was referring to the 6 horns patch he demonstrated as 'the best I've heard'. Thought it was awesome sounding.


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## Tino Danielzik (Jul 28, 2011)

HB sounds great! And I think CB Pro will be awesome as well. But there is one guy who could bring this to a new level, Andrew K., where are you?! :D


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## jamwerks (Jul 28, 2011)

I’m pretty happy with what I’ve heard from HB, and CB sounded great also. I’m a bit surprised though that HB didn’t include a second solo horn, trumpet, & trombone on some of the patches.

In ensemble writing we’re using the solo instrument for 3 or 4 part writing. Having only 1 solo instrument makes us use the same "instrument" 4 times. Even though we’re not in unison, our ears pick-up on similarities, and the red "synthy" button goes flashing!
One option would have been to use the player from the a2 patches for a second round of solo patches.

With VSL you have a B-flat trumpet, a C trumpet, a Cornet, etc. In the WW section there are 2 distinct flutes, oboes, etc. Sample-modeling also furnished additional instruments for this purpose.

Maybe EW will consider doing a "Pro" add-on for this and maybe other coming features.
Another hope, that CB and included 2 distinct solo instrument, or maybe the solo instruments from both HB & CB will mix well for ensemble writing.

n.b. I know both are planning WW libraries. Having 2 distinct solo instruments there is also a must. o=<


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## Ed (Jul 28, 2011)

Darkforest408 @ Wed Jul 27 said:


> i used the modwheel quite a lot on this small rendition of the Battlestar galatica theme using cinebrass.
> 
> I through the modwheel almost near the maximum value (horn section) on the second to last measure. the sustained low brass is nearer to the lowest value. there are some "crescendos" with the horn too.
> 
> ...



Hah! Really good :D


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## devastat (Jul 28, 2011)

..


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## RiffWraith (Jul 28, 2011)

^ Nice test. Shows they are both excellent products.


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## dcoscina (Jul 28, 2011)

I've committed to CineBrass and will wait for CB PRO before I decide whether to buy HB Gold. I rarely use HS so I don't wish to make the same mistake twice...


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## choc0thrax (Jul 28, 2011)

dcoscina @ Thu Jul 28 said:


> I rarely use HS so I don't wish to make the same mistake twice...






choc0thrax @ Sat Jan 09 said:


> dcoscina @ Sat Jan 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Meh, I guess I'm an idiot in choco's eyes but I pre-rdred the Gold Edition. I figured between this and LASS, I'm covered for a long time. Hopefully.
> ...




Remember those days? Good times!


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## Darkforest408 (Jul 28, 2011)

devastat @ Thu Jul 28 said:


> If anyones interested, I did some tests today comparing some patches in Cinebrass and Hollywood Brass next to each other http://soundcloud.com/devastat-play/set ... od-brass-1



in the trombone comparison it's easy to hear that CineBrass is more nuanced and organic. At least the trombones. HB has a higher dynamic range in the trombone example, but when it hits those loud notes, it sounds like something from my old 2002 Motif 8, which is not good at all. 

other than that, they are fairly similar. One is just significantly cheaper and union approved.


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## Ed (Jul 28, 2011)

Im not sure you should draw too strong a conclusion from devastat's comparison


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## devastat (Jul 28, 2011)

@darkforest Ed is absolutely right - you shouldn't really make any conclusions from my tests, they were just some quick noodles i did right after "opening the box" comparing the two sounds, doesn't really give justice to either of those two fantastic libraries.


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## Darkforest408 (Jul 28, 2011)

You're absolutely right.


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## dcoscina (Jul 28, 2011)

choc0thrax @ Thu Jul 28 said:


> dcoscina @ Thu Jul 28 said:
> 
> 
> > I rarely use HS so I don't wish to make the same mistake twice...
> ...



Hindsight is 20/20

I don't have a hate on for EW by any means but I just like CineSamples' brass well enough to stick with them. I played a track for Bill Stromberg recently using CineBrass and he asked if it was a real group. This guy is in front of orchestras all the time so I thought it was a telling testimony of the quality of CineBrass.


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## Pochflyboy (Jul 28, 2011)

yeah I learned my lesson between HS which I never use that much and OSR 1 (OSR 2 is pretty fun so far though!)

In the comparison I think CB wins in trps and horns but trbs is clearly HB


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## dcoscina (Jul 28, 2011)

The bones in CB are good but need more dynamic range is all. I played trombone for ages so I'm also pretty picky about this instrument.


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## devastat (Jul 28, 2011)

I used to play trombone as well, only for few years tho.

I have to say there currently is no comparison between Cinebrass and HB. It's just that in HB there is so much more material. The trombone in CB is nothing compared to what you can do in HB. You'll have to wait for the PRO version if you really want to compare the two. Those tests I did are really quite unfair also in the sense that I had to try to find from HB something that is similar to what exists in Cinebrass.


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## dcoscina (Jul 28, 2011)

It's the tone of CineBrass that seals the deal for me. I haven't heard anything from HB that says "I'm real!". Still sounds like (very good) samples to my brass player ears.


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## devastat (Jul 28, 2011)

To me its the sharpness, dynamic range and the energy that makes me lean towards HB.

But both are fantastic anyhow. Great times to do some orchestrated music with a brass section


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## reddognoyz (Jul 28, 2011)

I have to have both, they sound different and I make the same sorts of choices with Lass vs QLSO strings (no HS yet too cpu hungry for my system/taste)

for me a track with modern bombast would go HB and a soulful organic brass arraingment would go to CB, but know what? either could do both very well.


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## Nick Phoenix (Jul 28, 2011)

dcoscina @ Thu Jul 28 said:


> It's the tone of CineBrass that seals the deal for me. I haven't heard anything from HB that says "I'm real!". Still sounds like (very good) samples to my brass player ears.



maybe if you post your opinion 100 more times we will start to understand what you are trying to say? So you are saying that you like CB and plan to buy Kirk Hunter? Did I get it right? 

As far as comparisons go, hopefully someone will do a real one.


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## dcoscina (Jul 28, 2011)

Nick Phoenix @ Thu Jul 28 said:


> dcoscina @ Thu Jul 28 said:
> 
> 
> > It's the tone of CineBrass that seals the deal for me. I haven't heard anything from HB that says "I'm real!". Still sounds like (very good) samples to my brass player ears.
> ...



Dear Lord no! No offense to Mr. Hunter but I don't think his horns sound real at all! And I do believe I said somewhere that I'm still interesting in HB Gold but want to wait for CineBrass Pro before I move forward. I don't I have said anywhere that HB is bad in the least. I do own CineBrass and can only estimate the full potential of HB via demos which is admittedly very early on in the life of this library.

Nick, if you check all of my posts over the years, you will see I have been a very ardent supporter of East West. I don't wish you anything but success on your product. 

And this is a thread about various brass libraries so I thought it was okay to post my thoughts about libraries other than Hollywood Brass here.


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## tabulius (Jul 28, 2011)

I like the "lively" sound of HB and the dynamics. The CB soundstage sounds awesome. I'll order both this week and I hope that they blend together well.

Ps. would love to hear some raw demos of Hollywood Brass main mics. All have additional reverb added.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jul 28, 2011)

HB's best points to be were the Trumpet Legato, French Horn Legato (such as the mummy'ish melody at the end of the video) and then the power of the bones that I can tell.

But when I listened to the demo for CB using the Superman bit, that separated staccato with the trumpets with probably 99% to my ears. But not the legato. 

Especially not the solo french horn legato. That needs to be worked on in BOTH libs.


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## dcoscina (Jul 28, 2011)

What I find a little curious is the comments about the lack of articulations in CineBrass and how robust East West's HB is for this (which it is). My question is, how many arts do you guys honestly use? Judging from user demos, I don't hear much past the normal marcato, staccato, legato, with the odd custer or rip put in for good measure. Very little lip trills, flutter tongue, whole or half tone trills, mutes, stopped, etc. I'm just curious is all.

I had another listen to all of the EW vids. I honestly must be missing something.... or perhaps I've gotten too spoiled being in front of real orchestras more often these days... I dunno...


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## Darkforest408 (Jul 28, 2011)

What I heard in the video demos does sound synthy to me. Of course HB is much more comprehensive with lots more detail than CB, so I can't just judge HB on something so superficial like those video demos.


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## organix (Jul 29, 2011)

A brass lib like HB, CB or others can always sound good as you're able to do so. 

HB with its large amount of patches needs a good hand on selection the right instruments. This needs time and a good knowledge about brass instruments.
If you choose the wrong patches and articulations for the needs on your arrangement, it'll not sound as expected. 

CB on the other hand comes with less amount of patches. This limits the overall flexiblity, but makes your selection easier.

The process to optimize your results can be really different between CB and HB.
On HB you know, you have a lot of other articulations in different variations of the same instruments which you could try. So you try these and that etc. 
With CB you have not much variations, so you try to improve with what you alreay have loaded. You look deeper in your arrangement and playing style. This often brings better overall results as to rely to the possibilites of the lib.

I hope you understand what I mean, as a German, because sometimes I have problems expressing myself correctly in English.  

In the last years I was not very lucky about my brass lines, especially on some faster and rythmic patterns. Over time I acquired an arsenal on brass patches of libs like EWQLSO, ProjectSam, VSL. Hundreds of patches and I was not able to make the same results as with a few patches in CB now.

It's often not a question of quantity or overall quality. Sometimes less is more.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 29, 2011)

organix @ Fri Jul 29 said:


> A brass lib like HB, CB or others can always sound good as you're able to do so.
> 
> HB with its large amount of patches needs a good hand on selection the right instruments. This needs time and a good knowledge about brass instruments.
> If you choose the wrong patches and articulations for the needs on your arrangement, it'll not sound as expected.
> ...



In another thread Thomas wrote:

"I find that I can do just about everything I need with the slur+accent patches. There's no need for a bunch of midi tracks. Just a couple of copies of the slur+accent patches and you're set for about 99% of all brass writing (minus the occasional trill or rip here and there of course). "


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## dcoscina (Jul 29, 2011)

I think that's what put me off from Nick's noodling. BTW Nick, thanks for taking the time to do this regardless. It's good to hear the tone and timbre of the library. 

I think the deciding factor of realism in any sample library is how the notes are connected if it's a long melodic line. Staccatos or short arts are so much easier to work with as their are percussive in nature and don't have that overlap.


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## germancomponist (Jul 29, 2011)

organix @ Fri Jul 29 said:


> In the last years I was not very lucky about my brass lines, especially on some faster and rythmic patterns. Over time I acquired an arsenal on brass patches of libs like EWQLSO, ProjectSam, VSL. Hundreds of patches and I was not able to make the same results as with a few patches in CB now.
> 
> It's often not a question of quantity or overall quality. Sometimes less is more.



Huh, this is interesting. I would like to listen to an example from yours.


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## Mike Connelly (Jul 29, 2011)

jamwerks @ Thu Jul 28 said:


> I’m a bit surprised though that HB didn’t include a second solo horn, trumpet, & trombone on some of the patches.



Agreed, especially since EWQLSO had two solo trumpets. I use those together all the time. It will be interesting to see if CBP adds any additional solo instruments.



dcoscina @ Thu Jul 28 said:


> The bones in CB are good but need more dynamic range is all. I played trombone for ages so I'm also pretty picky about this instrument.



Plus legato bone section and solo bone legato and articulations (hopefully all of which will be in CB pro, and then some).



devastat @ Thu Jul 28 said:


> You'll have to wait for the PRO version if you really want to compare the two.



That pretty much sums it up right there. HB has more stuff. Whether HB still has more stuff after CBP ships remains to be seen (and if it does, whether that stuff is necessary meat and potato stuff or just novelties). But right now we can compare the tone as well as how well the legatos and short articulations sound - if someone prefers the sound of one library it seems likely that preference won't change when the new CBP material is out.


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## dcoscina (Jul 29, 2011)

germancomponist @ Fri Jul 29 said:


> organix @ Fri Jul 29 said:
> 
> 
> > In the last years I was not very lucky about my brass lines, especially on some faster and rythmic patterns. Over time I acquired an arsenal on brass patches of libs like EWQLSO, ProjectSam, VSL. Hundreds of patches and I was not able to make the same results as with a few patches in CB now.
> ...



with a little programming, you can adjust note lengths in CB to cater to what you need. This is the brilliance of this library. You don't need a million different arts. Seriously, how many times do people use shakes, or rips, or quarter tones or lip trills, or glissandi, or any of those techniques? Most of what I hear these days whether it's demos on this forum or even from professional composers are the standard legato, marcato, staccato arts. Not even a lot of fluttertongue or other ornaments. So while it looks good to have all these options, in day-to-day work, how many actually use all these things? 

I'm not trying to be a smart ass, just putting it out there as a genuine question.

Like Thomas B said, slur and accent is what he uses most of the time. Right from the horses mouth!


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## George Caplan (Jul 29, 2011)

mike patti says i hope you like it at the end of his demo. I really liked that a lot. seems like a real authentic sound. what is this cb pro meant to be?


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## Mahlon (Jul 29, 2011)

dcoscina @ Fri Jul 29 said:


> .....Not even a lot of fluttertongue or other ornaments.....



But those fluttertongues sound fantastic, no? I can see using those a bit.

Mahlon


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## Audio Genetics Lab (Jul 29, 2011)

dcoscina @ Fri Jul 29 said:


> Most of what I hear these days whether it's demos on this forum or even from professional composers are the standard legato, marcato, staccato arts. Not even a lot of fluttertongue or other ornaments. So while it looks good to have all these options, in day-to-day work, how many actually use all these things?
> 
> I'm not trying to be a smart ass, just putting it out there as a genuine question.



One thing potentially to remember is that you can't (or won't) use sounds that you don't feel actually work well enough or play well enough. If your brass library doesn't contain very natural, playable, and easily blend-able things like flutter tonguing, special rips, etc, then you certainly won't be hearing them in compositions.

Perhaps it's a bit like this: When omnisphere first came out, would one say that it is an unnecessary product because you haven't heard anyone using omnisphere in their music? 

You can't use what you don't have.

As an aside, I often do find it useful to ask questions exactly like that, because it reminds me that we don't always *need* each new thing. Truly getting under the skin of a library, combined with writing and orchestrating to fit within your boundaries, is what will make your music do what it needs to do and go where it needs to go. I deeply believe that working with limitations often inspires some of the best work.

(that said, I would love to replace every single brass sample in my current system...)

-zem


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## germancomponist (Jul 29, 2011)

dcoscina @ Fri Jul 29 said:


> germancomponist @ Fri Jul 29 said:
> 
> 
> > organix @ Fri Jul 29 said:
> ...



So, if I understand you right, a brass instrument like the Samplemodeling instruments, where you have to load only one instrument, seems to be the best? One instrument patch with what you can do all articulations via controllers.
The problem seems to be that you then have to learn all the controllers...., and also have to know how to use a mixer / reverb settings e.t.c. ... . 

I am a little bit confused. 

Maybe, Samplemodeling will do other brass instruments what sounds "out of the box" more epic......?


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## dcoscina (Jul 29, 2011)

George Caplan @ Fri Jul 29 said:


> mike patti says i hope you like it at the end of his demo. I really liked that a lot. seems like a real authentic sound. what is this cb pro meant to be?



More articulations, divisi sections, stuff like that. The tone of CB is killer for me. Just the best to my ears. And the price is soooooo nice. 

Again, HB sounds very good and I'm sure those who bought it are totally loving it. Happy for them! o-[][]-o


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## Mike Connelly (Jul 29, 2011)

In the commercial announcement section there's a whole thread about CB pro with user suggestions and a summation at the end of the requests and how often each was suggested.

Not much has been announced about CBP yet but that thread should give an idea of the possibilities.


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## organix (Jul 29, 2011)

germancomponist @ Fri Jul 29 said:


> So, if I understand you right, a brass instrument like the Samplemodeling instruments, where you have to load only one instrument, seems to be the best?



It's a matter of a right balance between amount of articulation, sound and usability. Do you really need 5 different legato patches of the same instrument?
One or two legato patches with intuitive playing scripts and maybe selectable options in the ui would be enough. A legato patch and an accent legato patch could be combined in one by selecting the accent feature with a button and midi controller. 

HB sounds absolutely great, but the usability and rigid play interface could be better.
CB also sounds great, but lacks on articulations and instruments. Maybe CB Pro will be a good expansion.


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## Mike Connelly (Aug 1, 2011)

Absolutely agreed about having patches with plenty of user options instead of lots of different patches that are variations on the same thing.

The SM patches have a few controllers that need to be set up and used, but it's very intuitive and simpler than I expected. The main downside to that library is getting the sound into an orchestral context, if they would include some additional preset options for orchestral use it would make a huge difference.


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## germancomponist (Aug 1, 2011)

Mike Connelly @ Mon Aug 01 said:


> Absolutely agreed about having patches with plenty of user options instead of lots of different patches that are variations on the same thing.
> 
> The SM patches have a few controllers that need to be set up and used, but it's very intuitive and simpler than I expected. The main downside to that library is getting the sound into an orchestral context, if they would include some additional preset options for orchestral use it would make a huge difference.



Yes, this would be very great. A Samplemodeling "Epic trumpet"


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## Cat (Aug 4, 2011)

I demoed the Hollywood Brass myself and I thought it sounded great.

I still believe that Vienna Brass 1 Full library is still better (more "articulated") for certain music genres. Too bad that I am going to sell it (my music style is going to a different direction).

I believe that the real PRO's must have them all! Not sure about the Spitfire private libraries though


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## Consona (Dec 15, 2018)

Ok, *BRASS WARS* it is!






Down there is a midi of an excerpt from Horner's The Wrath of Khan soundtrack, specifically this track:


Here's WindcryMusic's demo using Cinematic Studio Brass:


From this thread: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/cinematic-studio-brass.59957/page-34#post-4324414


WindcryMusic said:


> Okay, you've brow-beaten me into it, hehe. This isn't a precise copy of the notes from your midi, but I took the same basic lines and tempo, and used CSB trumpets, then horns, then trumpets.
> 
> No effects applied, just the mix mics from CSB. I do have a little passive EQ on my master buss which I left inline to give it some top, and then Pro-L2 to bring up the level. For these lines I played the same part on both Trumpet Solo and Trumpet a2 patches, and then on the Horn Solo and Horn a4 patches. In order to get something that I felt most closely approximated the sound of the brass lines from the original soundtrack, I varied articulations between the solo and group patches, using some Sustain Legato, some Marcato Legato, and some Marcato Legato w/Accents. I played everything at higher velocities in order to get the Fast Legato transitions, of course.



Which really surprised me, the trumpets sound really good for a sample-based performance of a line like that.

Anyone else willing to do a mock-up of those sweet mad brass lines?  (I honestly think not many libraries can handle this without sounding embarrassing.)

Does anybody own 90s Retro Trumpets, that have the fast legato patch and auto borrowing? That comparison with CSB would be great.


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## Consona (Dec 16, 2018)

I'm trying CineBrass and since the Adaptive Legato update, you can tweak the performance to some degree.

Holy ****!    (Ok, I'm cheating a little bit; reverb, eq, noise reduction and a slight compression applied but...)



Trumpets Ensemble from Core + Solo trumpet from Pro + Solo trumpet from Pro with the transpose trick and slightly changed midi so it's not the exact copy. All legato transitions. I mean... I'm rather fricking impressed. I didn't know I have something like this on my hard drive the whole time.


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## Consona (Dec 16, 2018)

There's still room for improvement of course, I think I'll try to put some shorts behind it to accent some notes.

Also my example is way too slippery, WindcryMusic used more articulations, should try that as well.


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## Consona (Dec 16, 2018)

Lol, I just listened to the real thing. Game over, boys.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Dec 16, 2018)

Yo, just did a quick test with sm.


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## Consona (Dec 16, 2018)

I think I don't even know enough musical terminology to describe what are those players doing in that piece.

Are they playing just legato? Accenting some notes while doing it or what?


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## Saxer (Dec 16, 2018)

This legato thing is sample speech. As a player you connect notes without attack or you push the note start by giving it a diaphragm attack or you do a tongued attack... mostly a combination of all in a phrase. It's like playing TaaAaa or Taahaa or Taadaa or TaaTaa or Taa-Taa... whatever. Which one is a legato? Which is not?


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## Consona (Dec 16, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Yo, just did a quick test with sm.



How many trumpets is that?


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Dec 16, 2018)

I think that the problem is that the fast lines eat up the transients and the Cinebrass and Csb lacks therefore of definition. Maybe for those lines you need to layer to the legato a short articulation, also try to throw in more close mics because and don´t use too much of the hall. With sm


Consona said:


> How many trumpets is that?



3, but played with the unison patch. Normall when I would have more time I would perform each of them individually.


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## Consona (Dec 16, 2018)

@AlexanderSchiborr Thx. Yea, from listening to the original, it has more pronounced attacks between the notes, normal sample libs legatos completely negate that. I'm trying to compensate for that.

SM sounds tempting...


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## Consona (Dec 16, 2018)

Hm, it probably sounds even better with only shorts playing, with legato mixed somewhere far under it to add some slur, but that's all.


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## Consona (Dec 16, 2018)

Saxer said:


> This legato thing is sample speech. As a player you connect notes without attack or you push the note start by giving it a diaphragm attack or you do a tongued attack... mostly a combination of all in a phrase. It's like playing TaaAaa or Taahaa or Taadaa or TaaTaa or Taa-Taa... whatever. Which one is a legato? Which is not?


Wow, it helps so much reading a description of playing like this. I pay much more attention to how they play the attacks and try to imagine to which kind of playing it's closer to.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Dec 16, 2018)

Consona said:


> Hm, it probably sounds even better with only shorts playing, with legato mixed somewhere far under it to add some slur, but that's all.



Sure, I didn´t really programmed the lines that much here, don´t have time that much (xmas stuff) and so..imo what makes the sm shine is that it has definition and bite. Probably try layering csb with shorties a bit and mix it differently, use more close micings and less hall, otherwise the transients are eaten up by the layered halltail and the result is mush..


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## Consona (Dec 16, 2018)

Sorry for the multiple-post. I need to chill out a bit.


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## Consona (Dec 16, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Sure, I didn´t really programmed the lines that much here, don´t have time that much (xmas stuff) and so..imo what makes the sm shine is that it has definition and bite. Probably try layering csb with shorties a bit and mix it differently, use more close micings and less hall, otherwise the transients are eaten up the layered halltail and the result is mush..


You bought CSB?


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Dec 16, 2018)

Consona said:


> You bought CSB?



No..I just said that to try out because I can hear also in the Cinebrass example, whats missing..also..there is this thing that the samples are often to clean..for such things, real trumpet player slurr those lines also and the are not perfectly in tune..which is another point of adding more realism.


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## WindcryMusic (Dec 16, 2018)

Consona said:


> @AlexanderSchiborr Thx. Yea, from listening to the original, it has more pronounced attacks between the notes, normal sample libs legatos completely negate that. I'm trying to compensate for that.
> 
> SM sounds tempting...



In my final, higher trumpets measure, I had one of the two sections (either solo or a2, don’t recall which right now) using CSB’s Marcato Legato w/Accent articulation, which overlays a spiccato onto the start of each legato note. I didn’t do that on the first trumpet part because to me it felt closer to the original without it, nor on the horn part because the result seemed to separate the notes far too much to my ears. But one could certainly use more of that effect with CSB to achieve additional separation.

I agree that the CSB trumpets come off better than the horns do in this case. The actual recording of the horns from the soundtrack shows that they aren’t quite acrobatic enough to play that part as cleanly as do the trumpets … there’s a lot of smear in their line from timing differences and notes not being hit cleanly. (I played the horn in my youth, and thinking about trying to play such a line cleanly still makes my lips hurt, hehe.) Some OT strings provide a “smeared” articulation for playing realistic runs, but I’ve never heard of a brass library doing the same ... which is too bad, ‘cause such an articulation would have been golden here.

If I’d spent more time on this and was trying to emulate the actual horn performance, I probably would have shifted parts of the solo horn performance against the a4 performance to attempt to emulate that smearing to at least a limited degree, and changed a few notes to the slower legato to help with that as well. In fact I might have even purposefully introduced a wrong note or two into the solo part.


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## I like music (Dec 16, 2018)

Saxer said:


> This legato thing is sample speech. As a player you connect notes without attack or you push the note start by giving it a diaphragm attack or you do a tongued attack... mostly a combination of all in a phrase. It's like playing TaaAaa or Taahaa or Taadaa or TaaTaa or Taa-Taa... whatever. Which one is a legato? Which is not?



Which one is _power_ legato tho...?


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## Consona (Dec 16, 2018)

WindcryMusic said:


> Some OT strings provide a “smeared” articulation for playing realistic runs, but I’ve never heard of a brass library doing the same ... which is too bad, ‘cause such an articulation would have been golden here.


Well even Alex's previous library, CS2, has that and even in two versions of the concept, Live mode and Run mode. I adds so much realism it's not even funny.


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## tokatila (Dec 16, 2018)

Can I play too? Modwheel follows somewhat Midi notes Velocities.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Dec 16, 2018)

tokatila said:


> Can I play too? Modwheel follows somewhat Midi notes Velocities.


Nice ending. What did you use to create it?


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## WindcryMusic (Dec 16, 2018)

Consona said:


> Well even Alex's previous library, CS2, has that and even in two versions of the concept, Live mode and Run mode. I adds so much realism it's not even funny.



Interesting ... I didn’t know that. Then it’s interesting that he chose to omit that articulation from CSS.


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## Consona (Dec 16, 2018)

WindcryMusic said:


> Interesting ... I didn’t know that. Then it’s interesting that he chose to omit that articulation from CSS.


My thoughts exactly. Those two modes are just invaluable, live mode + shorts create such lively passages.


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## Casiquire (Dec 16, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Yo, just did a quick test with sm.




I have to say this one sounds the best to me. The transitions get swallowed up in the other versions whereas here they're present but very quick and a little pronounced which, I believe, sounds more natural


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## storyteller (Dec 16, 2018)

I'm joining in this weird brass brawl. Here's 8dio Century Brass. I used the mix mics only, default position (centered), with no external reverb. There were no adjustments to the midi file and I used one articulation only. The 2 Trumpets patch could go even faster in legato transitions than demonstrated here... Actually, the Fanfare Shorts sounded best on both of these, but we are doing a legato test for some reason. So, here they are. I'm in.


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## NoamL (Dec 16, 2018)

SM Brass was _made_ for this application  but it creates the problem of placing it in the space with everything else.


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