# Logic Users!! Help!! Re: Midi lane automation SOLVED (I Think)



## ZenFaced (Mar 14, 2017)

I recently started using Logic for midi orchestration and I am much better versed using Pro Tools so forgive me of my ignorance but I am having a basic problem with midi CC lane automation that is driving me crazy.

I couldn't figure out why my midi CC data was not saving or playing back correctly and other times go missing and I just realized there are 4 layers of midi CC lane data competing with each other. 

I was fully aware that midi track CC automation and midi region CC automation lanes can cause a problem and in preferences you can opt to have one take precedence over the other. But beyond that I just realized if you select midi notes in piano roll they too will have their own midi CC automation independent of the midi region and track CC automation!! 

And beyond that there is also seems to be a bug (or design flaw) whereby the CC midi automation lane in the piano roll competes with the CC automation lane in the midi view in the arrange window. It seems they don't update with each other even when linked!!!!

Am I missing some preference setting that allows you to do away with all these competing layers of midi CC lane automation? I can't imagine the designers of Logic would force you to babysit 4 competing layers of midi CC data!!!

For God's sake, someone --- please shine some light on this!!!


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## Heinigoldstein (Mar 15, 2017)

Actually there shouldn't be any competing CC lanes at all. They all should be the same, no matter what editor you are looking at. Two things come into my mind.
1. are you sure, it's always the same CC midi channel ? It's pretty easy to get confused if not.
2. are all windows linked together (chain symbol). If not, are you sure you look at the same region ?

And CC can be a bit buggy in 10.3.0 and suppost to be better in 10.3.01


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## Simon Ravn (Mar 15, 2017)

ZenFaced said:


> I recently started using Logic for midi orchestration and I am much better versed using Pro Tools so forgive me of my ignorance but I am having a basic problem with midi CC lane automation that is driving me crazy.
> 
> I couldn't figure out why my midi CC data was not saving or playing back correctly and other times go missing and I just realized there are 4 layers of midi CC lane data competing with each other.
> 
> ...



Sounds a bit like a problem I have been having since Logic X. Sometimes (often) CC data will record on different MIDI channels on the same region/track. I have no idea what is causing this. But just yesterday I had the problem where I had recorded some Modwheel (CC1) in a region. Then I wanted to add to that later in the region. Now that new recording appeared in channel 11 instead of channel 1 for some reason. That adds to confusion (and problems obviously), since I then looked at the automation and it seemed the first recording was gone - so I re-recorded the first few bars again. Upon playback that obviously sounded screwed because there are now two recordings of CC1 playing back at the same time. And there is no easy way to remove/merge these recordings, sometimes I had to go to the event list and manually select a bunch of them to delete, because CC1 was mixed up being on channel 11 and 1 through parts of the region.

It is really frustrating and I have yet to find a solution and a reason why this happens.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Mar 15, 2017)

What I found out is the following , which may or may not be the case with your issue:

If you start with separate regions, and start joining them, or (dependant on your settings for regions and Recording: overlap/ect.) you record over them then that is where the fun began for me.
And so it appeared that I adjusted CC1 but it seemed to do something else from a previous recording session which was in the older/other region.

So check within the region (by clicking through the current present cc's) if you have f.e. more then one cc1 in your region.
(see the Arrow button left below on picture. if you push the Arrow you go through all the present cc's)


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## ZenFaced (Mar 15, 2017)

Heinigoldstein said:


> Actually there shouldn't be any competing CC lanes at all. They all should be the same, no matter what editor you are looking at. Two things come into my mind.
> 1. are you sure, it's always the same CC midi channel ? It's pretty easy to get confused if not.
> 2. are all windows linked together (chain symbol). If not, are you sure you look at the same region ?
> 
> And CC can be a bit buggy in 10.3.0 and suppost to be better in 10.3.01



Ahhh, I think you may be onto something here. I am using SkiSwitcher which changes articulations using midi channel numbers. SkiSwitcher embeds the midi channel on the midi note itself. Thus any region could have numerous artoculation changes. I think that could be the problem. 

The SkiSwitcher Midi Cloner plugin was supposed to resolve this issue but it looks like its not working correctly. I'll report this to Peter Schwartz


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## Peter Schwartz (Mar 15, 2017)

Hi ZenFaced,

I don't think this has anything to do with the Cloner.

First I think we have to clarify a few things... When dealing with CC's in Logic, you can:

• Record them live by moving wheels/sliders/pedals, in which case those MIDI events will be contained in a MIDI region. They can be represented as events in the event list, OR, they can be represented as curves/lines in MIDI Draw in the Piano Roll (or Score). Same exact stuff, two different representations.

• You can also draw in CC's directly into the MIDI Draw areas of the Piano Roll, or Score, or.... the regions themselves! Here's an example of normally-recorded MIDI events (CC#1) represented in the actual region. Top region = notes, bottom region = CC#1 movements. This is just a normal MIDI region displaying the CC's it contains as curves and lines in the MIDI Draw feature of the region itself!






If I wanted to, I could draw in or edit those CC's too. But let me stress that this is not a separate source of CC's. MIDI Draw is simply a reflection of whatever CC's are recorded in a MIDI Region.

• You can also draw in CC's directly into Region Automation, which gives the outward appearance of the normal MIDI region as shown above, but Region Automation-based CC events are "recorded" in a separate layer.

When you mix normal MIDI recording of CC's, such as realtime movements of wheels/sliders/pedals along with Region Automation of those same CC's, you're crusin' for a bruisin'.
*
I'd highly suggest choosing MIDI recording or Region Automation, not both. My recommendation is to forget Region Automation exists for MIDI CC's.*

Next....

To further help troubleshoot this, I'd like to suggest that you make sure Clip Length is switched off on all regions. Doing this will prevent Logic from sending "reset to zero" CC values when the playhead passes the end of a region. What makes this further more horrible is that if you merge regions in which clip length is on, Logic will write zero values into the resulting, merged region for those CC's it would normally generate at the end of the regions. This creates huge, horrible messes.

As a general rule, always work with Clip Length turned off, and you can set this as a default by clicking on a blank area in the track lanes and turning it off. This sets the "MIDI Thru" default -- the parameter settings which are applied to all newly created regions.






*Now to the CC Cloner...
*
This Script is provided for use with multi-timbral patches, allowing a single stream of CC messages (always on channel 1) to be duplicated in real time and supplied to the non-ch1 patches in the multi. Here's an example from the User Manual...

Here's a non-SkiSwitcher, multi-timbral approach with arco (ch1) and tremolo (ch7) articulations that both respond to CC#1 in the same way: dynamics control (sample crossfading). Without SkiSwitcher you'd have to record CC#1 on ch1 and ch7 independently to affect those articulations. And those articulations would be on different tracks too. This example shows a crescendo --> decrescendo gesture between tremolo and arco (normal sustained).






But...

With SkiSwitcher, you'll be recording those articulations on one track. Then, by way of the CC Cloner, you can record a single stream of CC#1 on channel 1. The Cloner duplicates those messages on channel 7 and both are sent to the patch simultaneously. This way, whatever articulation you're playing at any given time will be assured of receiving those CC#1 messages. And as shown by the arrow, you can adjust the "peak" of the dynamics for this gesture by adjusting the peak value of this singular stream of CC#1 messages.






So basically, this capability allows a multi-timbral patch to behave like a standard keyswitching patch, where a single stream of ch1 messages will affect whatever articulation is selected at any given time.

*The key to making this work is to record all CC's on ch1. *That's made easy by way of the Cntrls=Ch1 button on the Macro.






The default setting is ON. This way, regardless of what channel (articulation) you've switched to, the CC's make their way into Logic on ch1. The Cloner then does the work of duplicating the CC's on different channels.

If you're using MIDI Draw, or Region Automation and drawing in CC's, the Macro has no influence here, but the Cloner will still be in the loop, so the same rule applies: CC's must be on ch1.

Now... this capability doesn't preclude you from working with CC's on multiple channels. For example, let's say you want to target an articulation on ch3 with a CC that you don't want the other articulations (on other channels) to receive. No problem. You can accomplish this by either:

• Turning off the Cntrls=Ch1 button and then selecting a channel to record those CC's on (just switch to that channel in the same way you'd switch articulations), OR.....

• you can use MIDI Draw/Region Automation and draw in those CC's on whatever channel you want (selectable from Logic).


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## Saxer (Mar 15, 2017)

To work with CC data I have always:
- an open event list (with yellow chain icon)
- a key command called "Select similar Regions/Events"

When I want to get rid of the CC1 data in a region I select this region, then a single CC1 event in the event list, press my key for "Select similar Regions/Events" (which selects all CC-1 data) and "Delete". Takes three seconds.

That removes all CC1-data from the selected region while keeping notes and other events and so I can re-record my CC1 again.


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## Peter Schwartz (Mar 15, 2017)

I do that all the time too. 

Another way to work is to create what you might call an "overdub lane" (just another MIDI track for the same instrument) by using this key command:






Then record your CC's on that track. This way you can do a pass of CC's independently of the notes. If you don't like it, just delete the whole region and try again. That's what's going on in the picture I posted above...







And if I'm working with a sample library that offers, f.e., separate CC control of dynamics and vibrato (Hollywood Strings, CSS, etc.) I'll create multiple tracks to record the different CC's on. That gives me the ultimate amount of flexibility to independently perfect the CC controls. You can also punch into these "CC tracks" because they're entirely separate from everything else.


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## ZenFaced (Mar 15, 2017)

Thanks Peter and everyone else for your help. Before I realized the problem I was drawing midi cc automation for CC1 and CC 11. I didn't realize the issue with Clip Length and that it had to be turned off. So if the play head moved passed the region that could explain why I lost midi data in some instances but there are other instances where I drew in the CC data only to find it disappear when I clicked on the region but when I highlighted certain notes it re-appeared. So at the time I drew in the CC data the notes were highlighted but I didn't realize it at the time. So if I left the piano roll then came back the CC data went missing until I highlighted one of the subject midi notes then it re-appeared. Which leads me to believe there is either another layer of midi CC beneath the region in the form of individual midi note CC data OR coincidently the notes were highlighted because I was manually assigning those particular notes an articulation in SkiSwitcher which changed the midi channel info.

I'm not at my DAW now but this issue is related to midi cc data being drawn exclusive to highlighted midi notes or midi notes linked to another midi channel. Either way it's extremely frustrating. For whatever reason Logic has these weird kind of quirks that don't gel with my workflow. Maybe it's me. I don't know but Pro Tools is so much simpler for me and I wish I could just stick with it but it doesn't have script function to allow custom key switches hence why I forced to do this in another DAW. :(


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## ZenFaced (Mar 15, 2017)

Peter Schwartz said:


> I do that all the time too.
> 
> Another way to work is to create what you might call an "overdub lane" (just another MIDI track for the same instrument) by using this key command:
> 
> ...



Interesting. Never thought of that and seems like it could be a good work around.


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## Peter Schwartz (Mar 15, 2017)

Highlighting MIDI notes just selects them. That's all. It doesn't have any connection or influence on drawing in CC's.

Likewise, you can change the MIDI channel of notes and that won't have any effect on CC's either.

I think the problem you're dealing with is that you're using two different methods for entering everyday, garden variety MIDI data. As I said, if you use both methods at once, you're asking for trouble. That's why I suggest forgetting region automation even exists in Logic (for the purpose of entering CC's).


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## ZenFaced (Mar 15, 2017)

Saxer said:


> To work with CC data I have always:
> - an open event list (with yellow chain icon)
> - a key command called "Select similar Regions/Events"
> 
> ...



Good tip! I didnt know that!


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## ZenFaced (Mar 15, 2017)

Peter Schwartz said:


> If you're using MIDI Draw, or Region Automation and drawing in CC's, the Macro has no influence here, but the Cloner will still be in the loop, so the same rule applies: CC's must be on ch1



In this situation I was using midi draw. Is that the problem? Besides even if I originally recorded the midi cc live I always go back and draw to tweak the information. Are you saying Logic doesn't like when you do that?


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## ZenFaced (Mar 15, 2017)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> What I found out is the following , which may or may not be the case with your issue:
> 
> If you start with separate regions, and start joining them, or (dependant on your settings for regions and Recording: overlap/ect.) you record over them then that is where the fun began for me.
> And so it appeared that I adjusted CC1 but it seemed to do something else from a previous recording session which was in the older/other region.
> ...


 
Thanks For the tip. Good to know


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## Peter Schwartz (Mar 15, 2017)

ZenFaced said:


> In this situation I was using midi draw. Is that the problem? Besides even if I originally recorded the midi cc live I always go back and draw to tweak the information. Are you saying Logic doesn't like when you do that?



No, there's no problem doing that. You can do that 'til the cows come home. I'm saying that you're going to have problems if you try to use Region Automation to enter the same CC's you've recorded in the region.

The other thing I'm saying is that the CC Cloner requires CC's to be recorded (or entered) on channel 1.


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## ZenFaced (Mar 15, 2017)

Simon Ravn said:


> Sounds a bit like a problem I have been having since Logic X. Sometimes (often) CC data will record on different MIDI channels on the same region/track. I have no idea what is causing this. But just yesterday I had the problem where I had recorded some Modwheel (CC1) in a region. Then I wanted to add to that later in the region. Now that new recording appeared in channel 11 instead of channel 1 for some reason. That adds to confusion (and problems obviously), since I then looked at the automation and it seemed the first recording was gone - so I re-recorded the first few bars again. Upon playback that obviously sounded screwed because there are now two recordings of CC1 playing back at the same time. And there is no easy way to remove/merge these recordings, sometimes I had to go to the event list and manually select a bunch of them to delete, because CC1 was mixed up being on channel 11 and 1 through parts of the region.
> 
> It is really frustrating and I have yet to find a solution and a reason why this happens.



Simon this is similar to what I was experiencing. Is Logic really like this? I thought Logic's reputation was superior midi editing.


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## Peter Schwartz (Mar 15, 2017)

I don't think this is a how-good-is-Logic's-MIDI-editing-_really?_ problem. With the Cntrls = Ch1 button on in the SkiSwitcher Macro (please check this) there's no way you're ever going to record CC's on any other channel than ch1.


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## ZenFaced (Mar 15, 2017)

Peter Schwartz said:


> Highlighting MIDI notes just selects them. That's all. It doesn't have any connection or influence on drawing in CC's.
> 
> Likewise, you can change the MIDI channel of notes and that won't have any effect on CC's either.
> 
> I think the problem you're dealing with is that you're using two different methods for entering everyday, garden variety MIDI data. As I said, if you use both methods at once, you're asking for trouble. That's why I suggest forgetting region automation even exists in Logic (for the purpose of entering CC's).



Hi Peter - I wasn't using the 2 different methods. I was only using midi draw on a virgin cc midi lane. The midi cc data would disappear until I highlighted the specific midi notes then it would re appear. Logic was keeping 2 separate midi cc data in memory - one for the midi region and another for the selected notes and they would compete against each other in the background.


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## ZenFaced (Mar 15, 2017)

Peter Schwartz said:


> I don't think this is a how-good-is-Logic's-MIDI-editing-_really?_ problem. With the Cntrls = Ch1 button on in the SkiSwitcher Macro (please check this) there's no way you're ever going to record CC's on any other channel than ch1.



I wasn't "recording" the midi data live. I was drawing it in. Not sure if that makes a difference. But it shouldn't


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## ZenFaced (Mar 15, 2017)

Peter Schwartz said:


> I don't think this is a how-good-is-Logic's-MIDI-editing-_really?_ problem. With the Cntrls = Ch1 button on in the SkiSwitcher Macro (please check this) there's no way you're ever going to record CC's on any other channel than ch1.



BTW - I'm not saying this is SkiSwtchers fault -- it seems like a Logic issue. I really appreciate all your help. The only reason why I went back to Logic for midi orchestration was because of SkiSwitcher - I'm just currently frustrated with this Midi cc issue and some other quirky things in Logic unrelated to this particular issue.


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## ZenFaced (Mar 15, 2017)

Peter Schwartz said:


> No, there's no problem doing that. You can do that 'til the cows come home. I'm saying that you're going to have problems if you try to use Region Automation to enter the same CC's you've recorded in the region.



Don't understand that part.


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## ZenFaced (Mar 15, 2017)

Peter Schwartz said:


> The other thing I'm saying is that the CC Cloner requires CC's to be recorded (or entered) on channel 1.



I think the issue involves offline midi drawing of CC information. Let me give you an example. I have a midi region containing a phrase of midi notes. Now I go back to choose my articulations offline. So in the piano roll in, let's say Track 1 for the selected midi region I highlight, for example, 4 midi notes out of the phrase then input midi channel 4 in the event window telling SkiSiwtcher to select Sustain on midi channel 4. Then I went back to piano roll and drew in CC1 underneath those notes. Then maybe I'll go back and edit something else in another track or my workflow leads me somewhere else. Then at some point I'll come back to Track 1 and highlight that same midi region and the CC1 data is now gone, missing - or so I thought. So I go back and redraw CC1 data for the entire midi region because I'm thinking the original CC1 was erased. But when I playback the CC 1 doesn't sound right. Why? Because the region Cc1 was fighting with hidden CC1. It wasn't until I accidentally highlighted one of the sustain notes that, wahlah! the original CC1 data re-appeared! It was hidden under the region Cc1 data all this time.

So now I lost hours of work because, you guessed it, the same issue on all my tracks. So now all my cc data is corrupt due to this issue.

I'm not at my daw right now but I have a feeling that this issue is related to offline midi draw associated with midi notes assigned to different midi channels for the purpose of changing articulations. Logic is keeping CC data separate for midi notes associated with different midi channels and maybe CC cloner is not correcting it and reassigning it to midi channel 1 because it was done offline?


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## Peter Schwartz (Mar 15, 2017)

I'll explain both of these things in a separate post. For now though...

"Logic is keeping CC data separate for midi notes associated with different midi channels...."

Nope, Logic doesn't do this. 

..."and maybe CC cloner is not correcting it and reassigning it to midi channel 1 because it was done offline?"

The CC Cloner isn't designed to correct anything, per se. It's designed to accept CC's on ch1 only and duplicate them on other channels. It doesn't correct for CC's on other channels. I'm not in front of Logic myself right now (OMG!) but if I'm not mistaken, CC's on channels other than ch1 are simply passed through.

Again, I'll explain in more detail in a separate post.


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## Tatu (Mar 16, 2017)

I don't have skiswitcher so I can't say if it affects, but doesn't this "hidden CC# under another channel" -problem disappear, if you just set your instrument track / region to all midi channels/any?


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## Simon Ravn (Mar 16, 2017)

This (my) problem is not Skiswitchers, since I am not using it, don't have it installed. So I really don't know what the f.... is going on.


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## Peter Schwartz (Mar 16, 2017)

One thing we can 100% rule out is that it has nothing to do with SkiSwitcher. 

Maybe the following information about Logic will help (none of the following has anything to do with SkiSwitcher).

So... here's a MIDI region with some notes and CC#11 recorded on a track which itself is set to channel 1 (red arrow). The MIDI this region is on ch1 because my controller transmits on ch1, not because of the track's MIDI channel. 
Here's a bit of the event list showing the first couple of events in the region.










Now here's another region recorded on a track set to ch3. Same CC's, actually, but the notes were played a third higher. The MIDI in the region is still on ch1 because, again, my controller transmits on ch1. It's the track's channel setting which channelizes MIDI on its way to the plugin.









Let's say you now want to merge these regions. What you'll end up with is a single region containing MIDI on ch1 and ch3. That's because Logic takes into account the channel of the tracks so that the MIDI events in your new region retain their original tracks' channel assignments. 






So here you've got notes on different channels and CC#11 on different channels. How that's displayed in MIDI Draw is coming up...


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## Peter Schwartz (Mar 16, 2017)

Set up a key command for this:





Mine is "H" so I'll be referring to that.

If this merged region is selected and you hit "H" repeatedly, the region's MIDI Draw display will cycle through all of the different types of MIDI events in the region. If you have repeated events, like CC#11 on two different channels, the display will display them separately. Here's the display showing the CC#11 events on ch1:






Hitting "H" again displays the CC#11 events on ch3 (the shape of my ch3 CC#11 curve was identical to the one for ch1)






If you keep hitting "H" you'll then see displays for the velocities of the ch1 notes, then the ch3 notes.

You will get exactly the same behavior in the MIDI Draw area of the Piano Roll and the Score Editor. But the chief characteristic of this behavior is that you can only see one MIDI item at a time.


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## Peter Schwartz (Mar 16, 2017)

Now here's a region shown in the Piano Roll, MIDI Draw showing CC#11.





If I switch to a different region that has notes but no CC#11, the MIDI Draw display doesn't "adapt" to show you anything about the contents of this region. It doesn't switch to show you the note velocities (that would be nice, but it doesn't), so here the MIDI Draw display seems to go blank.






There's a similar situation where MIDI Draw will show you data only on selected channels...


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## Peter Schwartz (Mar 16, 2017)

Here's the PR showing a region containing notes on ch1 and ch3, with CC#11 only on ch1. Also shown is the MIDI Draw channel display, where you can choose to show events only on a specific channel.






As shown, "Expression" is selected in the menu. But maybe I didn't notice this... And... I'm about to select ch3 from the menu _thinking_ that I'm going to show velocities for the ch3 notes in this region. Here's the result of selecting ch3:






It seems that the CC#11 disappeared, but really, the CC#11 data that's there just isn't being displayed. Because... there... isn't any Expression data on ch3. 

So with all this, I'm suggesting that _maybe... maybe..._ some of these circumstances, behaviors, and settings are causing it to seem like MIDI data is disappearing.


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## Heinigoldstein (Mar 16, 2017)

Check the displayed cc midi-channel.

When you record cc data with SkiSwitcher it automatically will be on ch 1. But if you draw cc in, it depends of the channel, that is displayed in the editor (view/midi-draw/channel). If this is set to f.e. ch.2, you´ll draw the cc data with ch.2. If in another editor the view channel is set to ch.1, you will not see the drawn in data at all. If it is set to all, you will see messy cc data, the ones recorded on 1 and the drawn in ones on 2. 
I´m not sure though, if it is a Logic bug, that changes the view channel sometimes or if it is caused by any of my actions by accident.


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## Simon Ravn (Mar 16, 2017)

I rarely draw CC in, I often edit it though. So I am experiencing MIDI recordings of CC changing channels - seemingly randomly - very often. It's a bit of a workflow killer so would love to find out if it's something on my end or a (huge) bug in Logic...


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## ZenFaced (Mar 16, 2017)

Tatu said:


> I don't have skiswitcher so I can't say if it affects, but doesn't this "hidden CC# under another channel" -problem disappear, if you just set your instrument track / region to all midi channels/any?



Yes my Track info in arrange window says Midi channel is set to "All".


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## ZenFaced (Mar 16, 2017)

Peter Schwartz said:


> Here's the PR showing a region containing notes on ch1 and ch3, with CC#11 only on ch1. Also shown is the MIDI Draw channel display, where you can choose to show events only on a specific channel.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do This: Create new midi region and open up piano roll and draw in some midi notes. Then draw in some Modulation data and Expression data. Then switch tracks or go to a different region and and switch midi automation view of Modulation and Expression. Then switch back to your original track. Sometimes the piano roll doesn't update. Same thing with the editor in the arrange window. Now in the first track you created highlight some midi notes and assign them to different midi channels in the event editor. Then re-draw some midi Modulation and Expression data in the midi automation lanes. Then go select another track or another regions. You'll see sometimes the piano roll window doesn't update like its supposed to. Then click on some of the midi notes in the piano roll. If you're lucky the original Modulation and Expression data will re-appear. If it doesn't you have to fiddle by opening another piano roll window.

Sometimes you have to click on individual midi notes in piano roll to reveal hidden CC automation data. And to make it worse sometimes the midi editor on the arrange window doesn't update like its supposed to either.

Excuse my French but it's a complete fuckin' nightmare. It's impossible to keep track of your midi CC data information.

So is it me or is it Logic? If its me then fine, you all have permission to spank me around for being incompetent and causing trouble and unnecessary drama in this forum. And I'll be the first to apologize and admit my stupidity.

But if its not me, then Logic has a serious problem. Either way I need to know before I waste anymore time in Logic versus finding an appropriate DAW for serious midi work.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 16, 2017)

For some reason people do not like the Step Editor but for me a screenset with it and the Piano Roll, or for me a Piano RoIll with the Event List where the Event List has "notes" filtered out, helps a lot.


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## samphony (Mar 16, 2017)

Simon Ravn said:


> I rarely draw CC in, I often edit it though. So I am experiencing MIDI recordings of CC changing channels - seemingly randomly - very often. It's a bit of a workflow killer so would love to find out if it's something on my end or a (huge) bug in Logic...


I never had this problem. Is this maybe related to your midi control devices?


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## Simon Ravn (Mar 16, 2017)

samphony said:


> I never had this problem. Is this maybe related to your midi control devices?



Nope. Just one device, sends on channel 1.


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## ZenFaced (Mar 16, 2017)

Just wanted to check back in and thank everyone for their responses, especially Peter Schwartz who, as always, went above and beyond with his support. As Peter said, I can verify this is not caused by SkiSwitcher, it is Logic that is making this hard for me and I still don't have an acceptable resolution on my end. I'll give it another day or so before I finally give up.

In the interim, I'm willing to pay a fair price for someone who can create something similar to SkiSwitcher that will work with Pro Tools, or even a program on a touch pad app like Metagrid or Lemur that will allow custom key switching in Pro Tools. And if anyone is aware of such a program please let me know.

Thanks a million!!


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## Ashermusic (Mar 16, 2017)

Oh boy, wait until you try MIDI in PT. If you are going to leave Logic you would be much better off with Cubase or DP for MIDI


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## ZenFaced (Mar 16, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> Oh boy, wait until you try MIDI in PT. If you are going to leave Logic you would be much better off with Cubase or DP for MIDI



I am pretty well versed in Pro Tools and basic midi functions are snappy and a breeze. I never had a problem with midi editing in Pro Tools and midi automation works like it is supposed to - no surprises or quirky behavior. In fact just about everything works snappy and efficient in Pro Tools. The only reason why I went to Logic for midi orchestration is because I am not aware of how to use a program or utility in Pro Tools which allows the ability to create custom key switches. Without that, when using Hollywood Orchestra I'm forced to put one articulation per track and that is not my workflow.

Also Pro Tools allows multiple cc controller lanes in its piano roll - something Logic is severely lacking.

SkiSwitcher is a godsend for Logic but unfortunately Pro Tools does not have a scripting function to have something similar. If it did, trust me I would stick with Pro Tools. The only other downside to using Pro Tools, and its more of an inconvenience than anything else, is it's lack of Group Folders to tidy up a large template (although it does have custom track views and custom group view function but its not as tidy as having a group folder)

Other than what I mentioned, midi editing and automation is a breeze in Pro Tools and I never, ever had any headaches or problems in Pro Tools like I'm having with Logic. I've used Logic in the past and it was always somewhat quirky but this midi automation issue is killing me. It's quite depressing especially after the time you and I spent getting Logic working with VePro.

if I can't get past this midi CC problem in Logic I'm just going to give up using Hollywood Orchestra because of it's inability to make custom key switches and I'll bite the bullet and buy Spitfire Orchestra this way I can continue with Pro Tools and make music instead of dealing with this weird CC automation issue in Logic. I'll use Hollywood as a supplemental library.

I had high hopes with SkiSwitcher and Logic but I just don't get it -- why you have to jump through all kinds of hoops in Logic just to get CC data working correctly? The problem is, I can't even get to the point of getting it to work correctly even after jumping through the hoops. I think the program is more sophisticated than its own good.

With that said, I will give it one more good faith honest shot this weekend to see if I can figure this out with Logic


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## Ashermusic (Mar 16, 2017)

OK, well then, I wish you smooth sailing with that.


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## ZenFaced (Mar 16, 2017)

Heinigoldstein said:


> Check the displayed cc midi-channel.
> 
> When you record cc data with SkiSwitcher it automatically will be on ch 1. But if you draw cc in, it depends of the channel, that is displayed in the editor (view/midi-draw/channel). If this is set to f.e. ch.2, you´ll draw the cc data with ch.2. If in another editor the view channel is set to ch.1, you will not see the drawn in data at all. If it is set to all, you will see messy cc data, the ones recorded on 1 and the drawn in ones on 2.
> I´m not sure though, if it is a Logic bug, that changes the view channel sometimes or if it is caused by any of my actions by accident.



Interesting. I'll keep that in mind when I investigate this over the weekend. There has got to be a simple work around to this issue.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 17, 2017)

BTW, I just don't understand the "Piano Roll only" crowd. What is wrong with this screenset for MIDI editing?


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## Ashermusic (Mar 17, 2017)

Or this one?


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## Tatu (Mar 17, 2017)

^ Curves, when aligned perfectly with notes on the piano roll give excellent visual feedback and are more continous (smooooother) compared to "blocky" data in step editor. One window is always better than two.

List editor - IMO - is only suitable when doing mass edits (+/-). Other than that I consider it be for those who don't know of anything more efficient.


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## Heinigoldstein (Mar 17, 2017)

ZenFaced said:


> I am pretty well versed in Pro Tools and basic midi functions are snappy and a breeze. I never had a problem with midi editing in Pro Tools and midi automation works like it is supposed to - no surprises or quirky behavior. In fact just about everything works snappy and efficient in Pro Tools. The only reason why I went to Logic for midi orchestration is because I am not aware of how to use a program or utility in Pro Tools which allows the ability to create custom key switches. Without that, when using Hollywood Orchestra I'm forced to put one articulation per track and that is not my workflow.
> 
> Also Pro Tools allows multiple cc controller lanes in its piano roll - something Logic is severely lacking.
> 
> ...



I know both PT and Logic pretty well. And as smooth and easy editing, especially audio editing, is in PT, Logic is miles ahead for Midi tweaking. It needs some time and to setup window and editor combinations to suite your workflow. And there are many chances to fail too. This is a huge difference to PT, which in a way is pretty linear, easy to learn, but also very limited. It's worth to give LPX a try again, be patient


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## Heinigoldstein (Mar 17, 2017)

Tatu said:


> ^ Curves, when aligned perfectly with notes on the piano roll give excellent visual feedback and are more continous (smooooother) compared to "blocky" data in step editor. One window is always better than two.
> 
> List editor - IMO - is only suitable when doing mass edits (+/-). Other than that I consider it be for those who don't know of anything more efficient.



If you have more than one screen, it's perfect to use more than one editor at the same time. Actually I use score-, step-, event editor and piano role in one window setup. Each has it's strength on different tasks. That's why I always went back to Logic.


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## ZenFaced (Mar 17, 2017)

Heinigoldstein said:


> I know both PT and Logic pretty well. And as smooth and easy editing, especially audio editing, is in PT, Logic is miles ahead for Midi tweaking. It needs some time and to setup window and editor combinations to suite your workflow. And there are many chances to fail too. This is a huge difference to PT, which in a way is pretty linear, easy to learn, but also very limited. It's worth to give LPX a try again, be patient



I do realize that Logic's midi tweaking is more advanced than PT and also has the powerful environment, a similar feature that PT does not have. But sometimes I think the level of Logic's sophistication gets in the way of some basic, practical things such as the issue presented in this thread. Remember, workflow is the most important element for any DAW and levels of sophistication should always take a backseat to the overall workflow. The goal for any DAW is to try and make the user's workflow so smooth, practical and efficient that it becomes second nature to your creation. It shouldn't be the other way around where your creation/inspiration becomes a slave to the workflow. So from my perspective, I don't care how much control you have over tweaking if its going to be counter productive and interrupt the workflow.

Midi cc automation, whether its live recording or offline drawing, is one of the most basic and common functions for any DAW and its a crucial element to overall workflow for midi orchestration. I don't think anyone can argue with that. Having so many layers of competing CC automation, sometimes hidden, in Logic, defeats the primary goal of having a smooth workflow. When I'm in the flow and "tweaking" my midi cc curves, I don't want to worry about keeping track of the hidden layers in the background and worrying about independent CC on different midi channels. I don't know how anyone can work like that. I need to be able to see the overall midi CC data for any given track in an instant - all cc data needs to be shown. And there should be an option in Logic to do away with independent CC data for notes on the same midi track.

I will definitely be giving this one more honest good faith shot this weekend because I know there must be a work around for this. I spent so much time already setting up my Logic template with VEPro that if I can't figure it out I will be surely upset. Peter Schwartz hinted he may have a solution. That guy is a Logic guru


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## Heinigoldstein (Mar 17, 2017)

ZenFaced said:


> I do realize that Logic's midi tweaking is more advanced than PT and also has the powerful environment, a similar feature that PT does not have. But sometimes I think the level of Logic's sophistication gets in the way of some basic, practical things such as the issue presented in this thread. Remember, workflow is the most important element for any DAW and levels of sophistication should always take a backseat to the overall workflow. The goal for any DAW is to try and make the user's workflow so smooth, practical and efficient that it becomes second nature to your creation. It shouldn't be the other way around where your creation/inspiration becomes a slave to the workflow. So from my perspective, I don't care how much control you have over tweaking if its going to be counter productive and interrupt the workflow.
> 
> Midi cc automation, whether its live recording or offline drawing, is one of the most basic and common functions for any DAW and its a crucial element to overall workflow for midi orchestration. I don't think anyone can argue with that. Having so many layers of competing CC automation, sometimes hidden, in Logic, defeats the primary goal of having a smooth workflow. When I'm in the flow and "tweaking" my midi cc curves, I don't want to worry about keeping track of the hidden layers in the background and worrying about independent CC on different midi channels. I don't know how anyone can work like that. I need to be able to see the overall midi CC data for any given track in an instant - all cc data needs to be shown. And there should be an option in Logic to do away with independent CC data for notes on the same midi track.
> 
> I will definitely be giving this one more honest good faith shot this weekend because I know there must be a work around for this. I spent so much time already setting up my Logic template with VEPro that if I can't figure it out I will be surely upset. Peter Schwartz hinted he may have a solution. That guy is a Logic guru



I guess that is the big confusion. There actually are no competing cc lanes as such. It is just a matter of setting it up the right way. The moment I got aware of the different view channels, I never stumbled into any cc mess anymore. 

And concerning Peter Schwartz I couldn't agree more !

Good luck for the weekend !


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## Ashermusic (Mar 17, 2017)

Tatu said:


> ^
> List editor - IMO - is only suitable when doing mass edits (+/-). Other than that I consider it be for those who don't know of anything more efficient.



Nonsense. it is the only editor where you see events down to the tick, an where it is so easy to Filter in/out MIDI events. It is only _not_ useful for those who don't like numbers.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 17, 2017)

[QUOTE="ZenFaced, post: 4066523, member: 14291" I need to be able to see the overall midi CC data for any given track in an instant - all cc data needs to be shown. [/QUOTE]

And again, you CAN in either the Step Editor or the Event List, you just cannot in the Piano Roll or Score editors.


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## Vik (Mar 18, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> And again, you CAN in either the Step Editor or the Event List, you just cannot in the Piano Roll or Score editors.


This should have been improved a long time ago. I mainly use only the score editor and the piano roll.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 18, 2017)

Vik said:


> This should have been improved a long time ago. I mainly use only the score editor and the piano roll.



It actually _was_ with 10.2.1. Have you spent any time with it lately? it is pretty customizable.


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## Vik (Mar 18, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> It actually _was_ with 10.2.1. Have you spent any time with it lately? it is pretty customizable.


Yes, I have. The thing (among tons of other things I'd like to see improved re. cc control/articulation control/notation and composing features in general) I'm talking about here is the lack of ability to click on any region in arrange, and see it displayed in the score or (and) piano roll editors, with multiple lanes of CC region/track automation on top of each other.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 18, 2017)

Vik said:


> Yes, I have. The thing (among tons of other things I'd like to see improved re. cc control/articulation control/notation and composing features in general) I'm talking about here is the lack of ability to click on any region in arrange, and see it displayed in the score or (and) piano roll editors, with multiple lanes of CC region/track automation on top of each other.



AGAIN, like it or not, this is the purpose the developers created the Step Editor _for_, rather than the Piano Roll or Score editors. It is only an inferior workflow if you choose to view it as an inferior workflow.

And btw, it is no longer the Arrange window, it is the Main window, and it is no longer the Arrange area but the Workspace. Get with the times, man


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## Vik (Mar 18, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> this is the purpose the developers created the Step Editor _for_, rather than the Piano Roll or Score editors


With all due respect - why they created it doesn't matter much. 


Ashermusic said:


> It is only an inferior workflow if you choose to view it as an inferior workflow.


 No way. If I mainly edit in Score or in the Piano Roll, which i and many others do, it is an 'inferior workflow' if we have to keep using more steps than needed/more editors than needed. There is a better solution, and that solution is therefore 'superior'.


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## Vik (Mar 18, 2017)

And here's how counter-logical the workflow is:
I record some chords with CSS while also recorded CC automation if dynamics and vibrato. 
If I enter the Step Editor, the key command for "MIDI Draw: Autodefine", which I usually use in Score/Piano Roll doesn't do anything. SO I use the key command for New Lane for Current Events instead. But that also creates lanes for every single note I have recorded. What I get often looks like this:







But I don't want that kind of look; a mixture of MIDI notes and dynamics/vibrato data. 
I can of course use the piano roll or score instead (or even better; piano roll with duration the built in "piano roll beams" (called Duration Bars) enabled. Then Autodefine will work, but I can't see more than one lane at a time. How is that *not* an inferior workflow compared with simply allowing multiple lanes in Score/Piano Roll, a la how it works in the track list in the ...Arrange window? 

The solution above is pretty similar to how Logic worked many, many versions ago - maybe even in the Atari version in the early 90s. There certainly is room for improvement.


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## Vik (Mar 18, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> Get with the times, man


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## samphony (Mar 18, 2017)

I mainly use the region automation view to edit multiple cc events.


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## ZenFaced (Mar 18, 2017)

Peter Schwartz said:


> • You can also draw in CC's directly into Region Automation, which gives the outward appearance of the normal MIDI region as shown above, but Region Automation-based CC events are "recorded" in a separate layer.
> 
> When you mix normal MIDI recording of CC's, such as realtime movements of wheels/sliders/pedals along with Region Automation of those same CC's, you're crusin' for a bruisin'.
> *
> I'd highly suggest choosing MIDI recording or Region Automation, not both. My recommendation is to forget Region Automation exists for MIDI CC's.*



What do you mean region based automation events are recorded in a separate layer?? 

Why would the developers of Logic not let you edit normal Midi recording of CC's along with region automation? They should go hand in hand and not compete with each other. In my case though in the template I am setting up I have not even recorded real time midi CC fader movements so it looks like there yet another layer of midi confusion we have to deal with??? 

Where do I choose the midi recording vs region automation?? I already chose "Midi region automation takes priority over midi track automation " in Project Settings. I don't see another preference for the one you mentioned.


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## ZenFaced (Mar 18, 2017)

The step editor would be useful for this situation if it was aligned correctly with the meter but its not. Its common sense things like this that need to be updated in Logic


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## ZenFaced (Mar 18, 2017)

Okay I think I figured out a work around.

The problem I am facing involves assigning different midi note to different midi channels for the purposes of triggering different articulations in a sample library for the purpose of making custom articulation switches, or key switches, so I can have all articulations for the instrument on the same track. This is where SkiSwitcher comes in to play.

The issue I was having was not directly caused by SkiSwitcher it was a function in Logic however SkiSwitcher depends on triggering different midi channels for accessing multiple articulations on the same track.

What I learned after reading this thread and after spending more time with Logic's midi CC editing, is that Logic allows separate midi CC data for each midi channel. So for example, if I had a phrase of 8 midi notes and I wanted the first 4 midi notes to be a staccato and the other 4 to be legato, I could tell Logic to transmit the first 4 notes on midi channel 1 and the last 4 notes on midi channel 2. Then using SkiSwitcher that information triggers the sample articulations (staccato and legato) in the sample library.

The problem I was having is that when I was inputing the midi CC data for expression (CC11) or modulation (CC1) to control timbre/expression sometimes, without realizing it, I was doing it on several midi channels instead of all on midi channel 1. So in my situation I had phrases that had over four articulations transmitting midi information on 4 or more midi channels and when I went back to input CC data it wasn't all being done on midi channel 1. But I had no idea at the time.

So to avoid this I think all I have to do is make sure all the midi CC data is created on midi channel 1 and make sure no midi CC data is put on the other midi channels for that track/region. So getting back to Ski Switcher, it has a midi plugin called CC Cloner which clones all midi Channel 1 CC data to be applied across the board to all the other midi channels in the track.

So now by knowing this I think the mystery of the missing/changed CC data is resolved.

So going forward I'm pretty sure if I make sure all midi CC data is recorded/drawn on midi channel 1, AND ONLY MIDI CHANNEL 1, then, using CC Cloner, I will have a uniform and predictable control over CC1, CC11 etc.

Two more things that are important to note: It seems that the midi note velocity is inherent in the midi note itself and is independent of all midi channels. So midi note velocity should be consistent no matter what midi channel you are on.

And Clip Length should NOT be checked in each midi track because it seems if the play head passes the region it resets the midi dat to zero. Why? I don't know but it seems like a bug to me.

I'll check back in this thread and update to let you know if this is working well and if I learn anything different or encounter other problems.


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## Heinigoldstein (Mar 19, 2017)

ZenFaced said:


> Okay I think I figured out a work around.
> 
> The problem I am facing involves assigning different midi note to different midi channels for the purposes of triggering different articulations in a sample library for the purpose of making custom articulation switches, or key switches, so I can have all articulations for the instrument on the same track. This is where SkiSwitcher comes in to play.
> 
> ...



Well, didn't I tell you


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## ZenFaced (Mar 19, 2017)

Heinigoldstein said:


> Well, didn't I tell you



Yes you did! You were the first to point that out early on in this thread and I quoted you on it. Thanks for the input because it helped greatly!!

There were times though when it seemed the piano roll wasn't updating correctly when I switched regions (which is a different issue altogether) but I'll keep on eye on that to see if that happens again.


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## Peter Schwartz (Mar 19, 2017)

> Two more things that are important to note: It seems that the midi note velocity is inherent in the midi note itself and is independent of all midi channels. So midi note velocity should be consistent no matter what midi channel you are on.



Not necessarily. The only time velocity doesn't make a difference is with patches where (typically) CC#1, 2, or sometimes 11 are the only means of controlling the dynamics. And even in some libraries that work that way, the developers/programmers will still sometimes implement velocity to control such things as attack time or amount of additional "accent" sample. That kind of thing can be both a blessing and a curse. Anyway, there's no need to keep velocities consistent with respect to how SkiSwitcher operates.



> And Clip Length should NOT be checked in each midi track because it seems if the play head passes the region it resets the midi dat to zero. Why? I don't know but it seems like a bug to me.



Yeah, it's one of those things that seems like a bug until you realize it's a feature. 
The thinking behind it is that if you were recording (say) piano using sustain pedal, and you didn't release it before you stopped recording, Clip Length will ensure that a sustain pedal OFF message is sent at the end of the region. 

To be fair, the Logic devs implemented a bunch of filters for the Clip Length feature so you can turn off this kind of action for certain CC's and not others. But I prefer to just keep it off and take total charge of the MIDI content of my recordings.


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