# Mic positions and panning in orchestral template



## kimarnesen (Oct 14, 2017)

Hi,

As a composer of concert music until now I’ve got a lot to learn when it comes to production. I’ve built my first template ever now with VEP and Cubase. Now I need to go through every instrument and use the right microphones and positions.

So as a beginner on this, I want to ask how you do that. Many libraries come with several microphone positions. Do you use the mic settings in each library or do you use something like Virtual Sound Stage for microphone positions and panning?

My template is mostly orchestral, but with a lot of ethnic percussion, instruments and singers. Also some synths for pads and sound effects. 

I really don’t know where to start here. Microphone positioning in the library vs Virtual Sound Stage or similar.


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## Atarion Music (Oct 14, 2017)

Well the way I do it is, I only use the close mic on all of them. I then use Virtual SS and position each player in their appropriate chairs. 

I DO NOT use the VSS presets, depending on what type of composition, you'll have to seat the players differently to get a clearer mix from time to time. Once you have it set, you can then use a Reverb of your choice, for me, I prefer EWQL Spaces but everyone's different


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## erica-grace (Oct 14, 2017)

I dunno. Look at what the pros do. Jake Jackson, Geoff Foster, Dennis Sands, Alan Meyerson, and on. Do they use only the close mics and use Virtual SS to position each player in their appropriate chairs? No, they don't. Of course you can do it that way if you like the results you are getting, but I prefer to look to what the pros do.

To answer the original question, I don't think there is one right answer. I think different mic positions are used, depending on the cue, and depending on what happens. I remember hearing someone - I forget who - talk about bringing up a certain mic position - I think it was the spots - in a part of a cue to add definition to strings. And then back down when needed - in the same cue. So, it's not like these guys stick to a certain setup when it comes to mic positions - they'll change mic positions and add mics and subtract mics as needed - not only within the same soundtrack, but within the same cue. We tend to stick with a certain setup and a fixed arrangement of mic positions. So it's the same mic positions for everything. But that's not how the pros do it.


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## kimarnesen (Oct 15, 2017)

Atarion Music said:


> Well the way I do it is, I only use the close mic on all of them. I then use Virtual SS and position each player in their appropriate chairs.
> 
> I DO NOT use the VSS presets, depending on what type of composition, you'll have to seat the players differently to get a clearer mix from time to time. Once you have it set, you can then use a Reverb of your choice, for me, I prefer EWQL Spaces but everyone's different



Isn’t there a problem that many libraries are recorded with the instruments in their seating position so they are already panned? Which means you would pan a panned instrument if you use VSS?


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## kimarnesen (Oct 15, 2017)

erica-grace said:


> I dunno. Look at what the pros do. Jake Jackson, Geoff Foster, Dennis Sands, Alan Meyerson, and on. Do they use only the close mics and use Virtual SS to position each player in their appropriate chairs? No, they don't. Of course you can do it that way if you like the results you are getting, but I prefer to look to what the pros do.
> 
> To answer the original question, I don't think there is one right answer. I think different mic positions are used, depending on the cue, and depending on what happens. I remember hearing someone - I forget who - talk about bringing up a certain mic position - I think it was the spots - in a part of a cue to add definition to strings. And then back down when needed - in the same cue. So, it's not like these guys stick to a certain setup when it comes to mic positions - they'll change mic positions and add mics and subtract mics as needed - not only within the same soundtrack, but within the same cue. We tend to stick with a certain setup and a fixed arrangement of mic positions. So it's the same mic positions for everything. But that's not how the pros do it.



Do these composers you mention have any videos about this since you try to look at how they do it?


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## jonathanprice (Oct 15, 2017)

I try to stick to whatever the Decca Tree equivalent in a library is, if the instrument is recorded _in situ_. Most orchestral engineers start with this since the orchestra tends to balance itself out, and it's a good mix to begin with. Then, if you need to highlight certain instruments in certain sections, you could raise the close mics for those sections (ideally with a cc assigned to the close mics). My winds and brass, however, are SampleModeling, and need an artificial space since they weren't modeled/sampled in a large space. I use MIR in VEPro for the space, again trying to emulate the Decca Tree sound. I've seen plenty of live orchestra cues mixed using only the Decca, a reverb to enhance the tail, and a little compression. It's not only a good starting point, it's often a good ending point.


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## bryla (Oct 15, 2017)

Well Yeah: an orchestra trends to balance itself. Samples don't. Dennis uses mainly decca mics. Composers often position soloists or sections differently if they overdub. 

There are a lot of different situations. Not one is perfect. I prefer what would be the Decca equivalent as Jonathan puts it. When recording its the one that I monitor as it is the conductors perspective.


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## Paul Christof (Oct 15, 2017)

kimarnesen said:


> Do these composers you mention have any videos about this since you try to look at how they do it?


They aren’t composers, they are recording/mixing engineers. There are many interviews of Alan Meyerson you can check out on youtube that are amazing (he’s one of the best).


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## kimarnesen (Oct 15, 2017)

Do you try to simulate a real orchestral recording situation or isn’t that your goal per se?


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## kimarnesen (Oct 15, 2017)

Paul Christof said:


> They aren’t composers, they are recording/mixing engineers. There are many interviews of Alan Meyerson you can check out on youtube that are amazing (he’s one of the best).



Haha, OK, I knew of Jake Johnson btw from Spitfire. But since they are the mixing engineers, the composer has already decided which microphones to use within the library, right?


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## chibear (Oct 15, 2017)

Atarion Music said:


> Well the way I do it is, I only use the close mic on all of them. I then use Virtual SS and position each player in their appropriate chairs.
> 
> I DO NOT use the VSS presets, depending on what type of composition, you'll have to seat the players differently to get a clearer mix from time to time. Once you have it set, you can then use a Reverb of your choice, for me, I prefer EWQL Spaces but everyone's different


Basically I do the same, with a couple of minor differences. In VSS I use a small amount of their ERs (usually less than 1/2) and that goes to a send track with the appropriate Spaces ir for the stage position. I like using dry libraries whenever possible; when there is a choice of mics, I use close and adjust the balance for depth.


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## Eric G (Oct 15, 2017)

kimarnesen said:


> Haha, OK, I knew of Jake Johnson btw from Spitfire. But since they are the mixing engineers, the composer has already decided which microphones to use within the library, right?



Yes, by the time it gets to Jake, most of those decisions have been made. I have seen all of Jake's tutorials and have taken his course from Thinkspace. So early reflections for positioning and a reverb tail are relevant. So your set up with VSS is fine + add a reverb tail of your choice. Just remember to remove the ERs if you are using a convolution reverb


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## kimarnesen (Oct 15, 2017)

Eric G said:


> Yes, by the time it gets to Jake, most of those decisions have been made. I have seen all of Jake's tutorials and have taken his course from Thinkspace. So early reflections for positioning and a reverb tail are relevant. So your set up with VSS is fine + add a reverb tail of your choice. Just remember to remove the ERs if you are using a convolution reverb



My first plan was to use two reverbs, one for tail and one for ER. Until I "discovered" VSS, so now I'm not so sure. However, my main concern right now is microphone settings in the library itself, which is a crucial setting before mixing it in something like VSS, I presume. I'm a little confused


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## Hannes_F (Oct 15, 2017)

It really depends on the libraries that you are using. If they are recorded in position and in a good sounding room then the best thing you can do is to start with the main mic system (most times the Decca tree) and augment from there. To rely on the positioning tools as a main method (VSS etc.) only makes sense if you are working with libraries that have been recorded dry (old VSL, Samplemodeling) or else you will have conflicting early reflections in your result.


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## kimarnesen (Oct 15, 2017)

Hannes_F said:


> It really depends on the libraries that you are using. If they are recorded in position and in a good sounding room then the best thing you can do is to start with the main mic system (most times the Decca tree) and augment from there. To rely on the positioning tools as a main method (VSS etc.) only makes sense if you are working with libraries that have been recorded dry (old VSL, Samplemodeling) or else you will have conflicting early reflections in your result.



Thanks, my main libraries comes from Spitfire. But of course pianos, ethnic instruments, choirs etc from various other companies, which I try to have as dry as possible out of Kontakt.


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## Hannes_F (Oct 15, 2017)

kimarnesen said:


> Thanks, my main libraries comes from Spitfire. But of course pianos, ethnic instruments, choirs etc from various other companies, which I try to have as dry as possible out of Kontakt.



OK then this makes sense: Use the main mic system of the Spitfire libraries as your core sound which defines your minimum room size. You can try to make them somewhat dryer by mixing close mics into it but if the close mics overpower the main system it will degrade the sound for most uses. So this sets a minimum threshold of roominess below you will not get as long as you have Spitfire as your main orchestra. Use positioning tools and reverb then to mix the dry instruments into that sound.

In case this is still too wet for a certain project then there is no other way than exchanging the main library against a dryer one.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Oct 15, 2017)

I mainly use the tree and those sorts of mic positions. Close mics only to highlight certain moments so they don't really get special placement since they're only supporting the sound that's already in situ. 

For material recorded close and dry I usually use Altiverb to place in a space and then send that to other reverbs. If it's something meant to be more in situ instead of a soloist I'll open push it to mono first to make it easier to deal with.


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## Atarion Music (Oct 15, 2017)

Oops, sorry for the misunderstanding  I forgot to specify. However, I still don't think you can use this for Spitfire libraries, they tend to be a bit wet. Sorry 

But for me, I use Cinestrings Solo, Cinewinds pro, Ewql platinum, Auddict's Masterbrass series and as of recently (As in this year) Auddict's USOE Series. I get everything as dry as possible and create instrument presets.

EXAMPLE - Solo Cello, Solo Violin,Solo Double bass, Alto Choir, Soprano Choir, ect. My default virtual template consist of over 100 chairs and with VSS I pan each chair to their proper seating position. I also turn their Volume down to at least 40% because it can get pretty loud once everything gets going. Once i'm done Eq'ing I'll then use EWQL spaces to deliver the final verb on the project. I wish I had Altiverb but, it's so expensive!! All in all tho, most of the time I have no need to use all the chairs I'm not very big on maxing out my wokstation all the time  but, I know if I need them they're there. 

So all of my string ensembles, brass AND woodwinds are created of only solo instruments, NOW, by no means am I saying you HAVE to do it this way. In fact if your on a deadline, I urge you NOT to. But I decided to do it like this, because 
1. the results blew me and my friends away. 
2. Before, it just wasn't sounding good enough for me. (It still doesn't but it's sounds ALOT better) I figured if I want something realistic, I'll need to do it realistically. And in a orchestra you do not have 11 players in a section playing at the EXACT same rhythm like a computer.


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