# Book 2 Lesson 9+



## rJames (Dec 3, 2004)

I created this piece entirely using EIS knowledge. I started with a piece of homework that I did for the E6 interval using scale #11. That is a normal major scale with a flat 3rd making it minor with a major 7.

The first 3 bars (maybe 4) is the homework. I purposely did a crazy bit of homework on the E6 to see if I could impress my teacher. :D 

It utilizes the Bass in Motion (Book 2 lesson 2) and runs based on chord tones using VL (but not perfectly because I wanted a little leap). This is only for the homework. Then I started using equal intervals for the root movement with all 9th chords on top moving with EIS Voice Leading.

Who knows what else I did but I constantly kept EIS in mind. And with a little RMX mixed in for super stereo field percussion...

http://www.DigitMusic.net/music/m9.mp3


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## TheoKrueger (Dec 3, 2004)

Too jazzy for my tastes , but interesting rjames


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## Craig Sharmat (Dec 3, 2004)

I dig this piece...very "Chick". Nice Work...Fusion lives!


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## Sid_Barnhoorn (Dec 4, 2004)

James, this is great! Which I could compose something like that...


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## Frederick Russ (Dec 4, 2004)

Wow very nice Ron! EIS is working for you here - the composition is superb. On the mix, you might want to roll back on the highs on the cymbals - they're beginning to sound a bit too trebly and tinny. Perhaps that would draw them back into the mix a bit too since currently they seem really "in your face" - one distraction to an otherwise very nice piece. 8)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 4, 2004)

Me likum.

(Theo, what on earth do you mean by "too jazzy?!")


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## Herman Witkam (Dec 4, 2004)

Some folks don't like jazz, or technical jazz...how hard it is to believe :D 
Great piece Ron!


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## TheoKrueger (Dec 4, 2004)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Me likum.
> 
> (Theo, what on earth do you mean by "too jazzy?!")



The harmonies and orchestration remind me of Jazz through a twisted latin filter and i don't like that sound a lot . This very technical sort of fusion does not have the feelings i personally seek through music .

I still appreciate the composition a lot though ! I know there was lots of skill put into it and complex, beyond my reach harmonies


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## rJames (Dec 4, 2004)

OK, Theo. We'll let you go with a warning this time... :D


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## TheoKrueger (Dec 4, 2004)

:x 

...

:D


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## Frederick Russ (Dec 5, 2004)

rJames said:


> OK, Theo. We'll let you go with a warning this time... :D



Conversely, should your supporters receive free dinner tickets - say to the next LANS? (by the way I'll see you there, and I'll bring my appetite with me.) 8)


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## Frederick Russ (Jan 22, 2005)

bump - ok already - LANS is in two days and I've got a heck of an appetite, eh, Senor James?

Nice piece by the way


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## FilmComposerZ (Jan 22, 2005)

Ron,

I agree with Theo... :( 

Sorry :lol: 

It's hard for me to "understand" these types of compositions. Lots of fusion going on and lots of chromaticism. I am SO diatonic when I compose. I can't help it. Being a rock guitarist writing songs all this time, I simply apply the same concept to orchestra....A diatonic melody (can go out on occasion, have done that), chords and rhythm. I have to be able to remember my melody on the spot, otherwise I throw it away. I love a hook!

So please forgive me, :( but I wanted to reply to so that you know I listened and can only apraise you for the complexity of melody, harmony and rhythm that you handle, something way out of my grasp. It is way out of my world. I am just to simple, but the world is big and there are many people who enjoy these styles and need composer's like you to give them this "supercrafted" musical delirium! :D . So hats off to you! And keep rockin! :D


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## rJames (Jan 22, 2005)

This thread has been exhumed by Frederick in celebration of our meeting in 2 days. thanks Frederick.

FilmComposer Schmitt.....thanks for the compliments (I think...???).

Seriously though, this was just for fun. You like it if you like it. 

This is not a complex piece. I'm just beginning in EIS and this is not much more than an exercise. I could have made it sound much simpler but listened to too much Chick Corea in my lifetime.

David gave me a little too much information one day and I put in one "EIS run" as he called it. I always wanted to do a solo like that. Just outside. And now I find out it is so simple.

Definitely, thanks for listening. And I appreciate the criticism. It shows me a bit about people who love music but just don't get off on the outside stuff. 

I'm doin this for me. But I want people to like it because the ultimate goal (should I be so bold as to say) for all of us, is to make a living doing what we love to do and would do for free (have been doing for free for years-no doubt).

If you think this one was out there, you should have heard "evolution" which I posted in another thread. Now that one was wierd.

Only got like two or three comments on that one.

No one even said, "is this supposed to be music?"


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## FilmComposerZ (Jan 22, 2005)

Yes RJames, they were compliments! :D 

I just find it hard to understand (correct me if I am wrong) that everybody doing the EIS is composing per "rules" or "techniques"??? Am I wrong? 

I Hope I am!!!! Because I just can't understand composing to certain rules. I always thought that music was creativity or inspiration of the moment. When I write I never think rules, neither harmony, nothing. I just let it flow. I dont go into a theory book and read about a D maj chord inverted so I can get the F# in the bass. It happenes or it doesn't. The piece will dictate that. I "feel" a certain "harmony" and boom, I do it. I am not thinking, "OK, this is E maj and I want to modulate to A min, OK, I know I can invert the Emaj chord, get the G# on the bass on that's it, can modulate to A min, connsidering I was in the key of Emaj". Just an example. What wil happen is I will hear the G# in my head, so that';s what I mean by "it will happen". 

It's hard to explain myself. But ever since I started writing songs at first, I just would sing a melody, if I liked it I would harmonize it, but just letting the song tell me what chords should be used to give the melody a better flow. Not rules...

Forgive me if this sounds critisizing. It is not. I am just wanting to get a better idea of what this EIS is. Do you need it to write it? Or can it come out of your head? Please someone elaborate on the idea. Please correct me if I am wrong. I have no problem in admitting I was wrong. I have heard so far one piece (by Frederick) using the EIS that really appealed to me. It was intense. But seemed "natural", like as if the whole idea just flowed from his head. Which maybe and probably did!!! :D . But he mentioned EIS, so it got me to wondering, did you use a formula and a piece of paper and it devised a melody and harmony for you, or did you have a melody in your head and based on EIS you were able to make it more exciting???

I am not critisizing anybody using this system. Jsut wanting to know more about it. I looked it up on Google and could not get anything concise. Is it very chromatic or more diatonic with chromatic feel?

Thnx for all replies

Pablo


Just so many questions!!! Sorry :(


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## rJames (Jan 22, 2005)

Pablo, you have good questions.

I am the last person you will ever see writing music to rules. Guaranteed. I might even be so bold to say that you will never hear another EIS student compose music like mine. I am also the last person to follow a group blindly. 

Here's what EIS is doing for me.

It is giving my ears training so that I can understand what I hear and KNOW how to go where my inside ear wants to take me.

It is giving my eyes and brain lessons in reading and writing music so that I can communicate to others (and to myself at a later date) writing music without a keyboard or instrument.

Its giving me a writing workout. Exercise. I'm building muscles. Can you work out without a trainer? Yes. Can you build muscles without a trainer? Yes. But could you be more directed and targeted if you had the finest trainer available that money could buy? Yes.

EIS is teaching me more rules about what not to do than what to do. That might be too simplistic but somewhat true.

After talking to Craig and David about music for the last few months, I understand what is going on imminently (sp?) more.

Now I'm going over the top...Spud Murphy wrote these books with me in mind. I swear. Everything leads to the next thing and everything is meaningful. There is not a page that is not important. I can read and play piano better (I could read and play a bit before the lessons) and now see music better than ever before.

I've told David this, I've told Craig this and I've told Spud himself the same thing. Its the most direct path to musical knowledge.

I have to admit, I have no credentials...that's just what I feel.

Yes, I wrote this piece off of an exercise. But only 4 bars of it. The rest was my creativity taking off on an idea. Truthfully, the piano part (solos) are just from my ear. But I, pretty much, knew why I was doing what I was doing much clearere than before EIS.

EIS is NOT about style it is about understanding.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jan 22, 2005)

"I Hope I am!!!! Because I just can't understand composing to certain rules. I always thought that music was creativity or inspiration of the moment. When I write I never think rules, neither harmony, nothing. I just let it flow. I dont go into a theory book and read about a D maj chord inverted so I can get the F# in the bass. It happenes or it doesn't. The piece will dictate that. I "feel" a certain "harmony" and boom, I do it. I am not thinking, "OK, this is E maj and I want to modulate to A min, OK, I know I can invert the Emaj chord, get the G# on the bass on that's it, can modulate to A min, connsidering I was in the key of Emaj". Just an example. What wil happen is I will hear the G# in my head, so that';s what I mean by "it will happen". 

Hi Pablo,

EIS is a method which should give the person more tools to work with. While the course devises ways to create melodies, I think we all wish to compose the melodies in our heads. This course really allows one advance harmonic ideas around melodies and make clearer and more interesting backing to those melodies. 

Lets take your examples here. When you put a F# in the bass on the D chord do you then put it in the treble too? Unless that F# is in the melody an EIS guy will generally avoid the F# in the treble as it weighs that structure incorrectly. do you know correct voice leading going from E major to Amin. If you don't care then there is a world of sound and movements available to you that you may be missing. Realize that almost every EIS grad has done very well in making music in his or her profession. There must be a reason why...it isn't luck.

What one needs to get started in the course is a basic ability to recoginize notes on the staff and true desire to improve. It's not always easy but what it will do is improve your harmonic vocabulary. It can expand your mind and your ears.

edit...I see Ron beat me to this


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## FilmComposerZ (Jan 22, 2005)

Is this like perfect pitch? Where can I get an example of this system to "test drive" it? I don't have perfect pitch. Wish I had time right now to develop it, but nonetheless I can identify chord changes with some ease. Hear a melody in my head and play it (almost). Identify different voicings by ear. Read the staff, write, etc. Al by own desire to learn as I never was schooled in music. But does this EIS make it better?

Thnx guys for the replies. I needed to get a better idea of this. Now if it does all that you say.....Why call it Equal Interval System? That sounds like using all maj 2nd interval for example or minor 3rds, to form your melody. I am correct?

Thnx Craig and Ron! :D 

Pablo


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## Craig Sharmat (Jan 23, 2005)

FilmComposerZ said:


> Is this like perfect pitch? Where can I get an example of this system to "test drive" it? I don't have perfect pitch. Wish I had time right now to develop it, but nonetheless I can identify chord changes with some ease. Hear a melody in my head and play it (almost). Identify different voicings by ear. Read the staff, write, etc. Al by own desire to learn as I never was schooled in music. But does this EIS make it better?
> 
> Thnx guys for the replies. I needed to get a better idea of this. Now if it does all that you say.....Why call it Equal Interval System? That sounds like using all maj 2nd interval for example or minor 3rds, to form your melody. I am correct?
> 
> ...



Hi Pablo,

I have never really investigated perfect pitch, but as I have studied this course for years and still do not have perfect pitch I feel safe in saying it is nothing like perfect pitch...

There is no way to test drive the course. The best way is to listen to the examples here from different composers and talk to students to see if this could be right for you. You can buy the inital books 1+2 which is a lot of material for under $50 bucks but they should be accompinied with lessons from an instructor as the course has it's own language. People who avoid using an instructor usually end up fustrated but those who do use one are usally amazed with the information. You mentioned the reason you did not get Perfect Pitch is because you do not have the time. EIS is a fast road to understanding but you still have to put in the time. If you know you can't commit to at least a few hours each week for the course, I would suggest not getting it. If you can make the time commitment then there is much to be learned. 

Remember, the course does not ask you to forget what you already know. It is supposed to embellish what you already have. What spud has said to me and other students is you will be a lot smarter than me when you finish the course. you will know what I know and what you know.


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## rJames (Jan 23, 2005)

FilmComposerZ said:


> Is this like perfect pitch?


From the novice again...My answer to that question is, "No." Not about ear training to be perfect pitch. I mentioned ear training because one of the first lessons is to take a major chord (actually 1,5,10) and march it through EVERY equal interval progression. (moving the bass in equal intervals)
I started to hear in this exercise many little exerpts of music from great (read working) composers. (to my ear especially Elfman)
Every lesson is another set of things to listen to. You never listen to music in this way!. We always listen to music after it is composed. But Spud Murphy forces you to listen to it in its unencumbered form. AS a building block. It may not be as revealing to you as it is to me. I don't know.



FilmComposerZ said:


> Where can I get an example of this system to "test drive" it?


I think you could probably get a test drive by PMing Craig Sharmat and setting up something. I may be assuming too much but I'm pretty sure that's possible. But be aware...how many subjects have you ever studied where the professor tells you what the course was about and you understood what he was talking about? We're talking about a 4 year study that is super focused to train you ALL about music. Is there more to discover after the course? Of course. But I can confidently say that you will never understand everything in the course. In other words, Spud is a genius that is trying to share his knowledge. AS we all know, it is tough to gain 100% of what someone is teaching you. Unless you are the one. You never know...



FilmComposerZ said:


> Now if it does all that you say.....
> Why call it Equal Interval System? That sounds like using all maj 2nd interval for example or minor 3rds, to form your melody. I am correct?
> Thnx Craig and Ron! :D
> Pablo



I ask the same question. Here's my understanding MY OPINION>>>Spud doesn't use key signatures. I believe (can I not use that preface any more since this is all my opinion??) that he thinks that writing in a key is stifling. When you write in C and you go to the V (5) chord it has 1,3,5,-7 in it. The 11 chord built on it has an 11 in it. Why not an 11+? Why not a -9? Why should the ii chord be minor? If you write in the key of C you must have a minor ii chord. If you want a major chord you must modulate.

To Spud, every moment in time is its own moment, its own key, its own "sonic happenning." Why limit yourself to writing in a key. That is much more confining than moving anywhere you want to go at any moment.
So, writing in pure diatonic system, you are limiting yourself to going down pathways that are directed by LOTS of rules.

To me, EIS says there are no rules. Or maybe one. Every sonic moment should be built out of a use of the natural overtone series (partials) of a single root note. And of course, every movement to and from these moments should be built according to these natural rules as well.

The equal interval system is so named not because you write using equal intervals but because it is a name, different than diatonic, that describes how to look at the the noteson a staff between 1 octaves. 

There are 12 steps to the octave. And some magical things happen when you see that the octave is split perfectly and those sudivisions are split perfectly as well. The perfect 5th is just a 4th from the other direction. 

I'm a beginning student and so don't know much about all of this. But its the best way to think about music at this time in my life for me.

It just boggles my mind the relationships that I'm seeing. And I'm beginning to thin out my music and be more concise with my musical statements. they are all my musical statements.

You don't lose your self in this course. You find it.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jan 23, 2005)

I want to add to Ron's statement,

while Spud makes his own sonic happenings he does not totally avoid the diatonic system. Many books have very diatonic examples in them and book 5 is all how you relate EIS to diatonic theory. It all gets covered in the course.


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## wes37 (Jan 23, 2005)

Speaking of no key signatures...I wonder if music notation would be better if we abandoned all key signatures and used colored notes to annotate the different notes, ie black for naturals, red for sharps, blue for flats. It would give us the ability to abandon sharps and flats that clutter things up as well.

Just a random thought.


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## rJames (Jan 23, 2005)

Craig Sharmat said:


> I want to add to Ron's statement,
> 
> while Spud makes his own sonic happenings he does not totally avoid the diatonic system. Many books have very diatonic examples in them and book 5 is all how you relate EIS to diatonic theory. It all gets covered in the course.



And I'll add a bit to that. 

#1 Listen to what Craig says and not to what I say cause I'm in Book 2 with a MUCH longer way to go than I have come already.

Here's my addition. Well, its really more of an extrapolation. The existing world of music is understood by 99% of musicians through the diatonic system. Spud would be remiss if he did not teach an understanding of the diatonic system. 

Also, I've heard that this course was made for working musicians. So, we're talking about a course that was made to move musicians that already had a competent knowledge of diatonic further in their musical studies. And in order to teach those musicians, the diatonic system is the common ground.

And finally, the musicians' audience has been ear trained with diatonic based music for centuries.

This question of "diatonic" and how Spud feels about it has come up a few times now.

I asked him today to help me clarify the point. I worry that my questions could lead to the answer I wanted and they did. But aside from the specifics and simply put, Spud felt that the diatonic system was very limiting.


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## ComposerDude (Jan 24, 2005)

(ignore)


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## midimad (Feb 8, 2005)

FilmComposerZ said:


> I never was schooled in music. But does this EIS make it better?
> 
> 
> Pablo



This raises the age-old question of whether it is better to risk the possibility of missing what you may come to know or to keep your blinders on so you never know what you are missing. Compositionally, is it better to leave out something you know or to not know what you may have left out? Some might argue that learning more than even a single note may distract one from learning how to make something groove. This view, of course, assumes that we all have a limited creative/learning capacity. On the other hand, a drummer friend of mine once said that even classical (kind of a swear word to him!) music, when played well, has it's own "groove". The idea is to keep a good feel in the music no matter WHAT techniques you use to make it. If you can keep the interest high (especially your own) and keep it feeling good, like Fredirick, Sharmy and rJames are doing, you have succeeded. 

Whether or not we like some one's experimentation (remember free jazz?), we sure owe a lot to those who have helped us define our own ever-changing bounderies of what works and what doesn't. Spud has tried out, invented and defined any number of compositional techniques which have at one time or another been considered experimental. His work is a real time saver.

"Does this EIS make it better?" Certainly can't make it worse!! The amazing testament to this system is how starting this course has prompted creativity among these folks (who obviously came into this with a great deal of talent!) after just a few lessons. I dare say it is impossible to study EIS without immediately thinking of applications to what you already know. The taste-factor is always up to the student. Anything can be overdone. It sounds like you would have no problem keeping yourself in check. As Spud used to put it, this course "re-programs your computer" in a way that doesn't eliminate the old program. It is an experience that is impossible to describe. Pick up books 1 & 2, take a few lessons and try it for yourself.

David


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## Frederick Russ (Feb 8, 2005)

Great points David. For those who may not know, David Blumberg * EDIT: DAVID ALFONSO * (midimad) is an EIS instructor and fairly busy these days! I encourage others to try the system with a few lessons to see for yourself how these composer tools can be applied to your own music. 

One benefit is that for me it is much easier to hear the techniques that composers I admire are using based on the language of EIS which makes emulation where necessary more possible. But it also helps in exploring uncharted territory as well without the use of serialism or outside octave dissonances.


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## Craig Sharmat (Feb 8, 2005)

I know it can get confusing but Dave here is not Blumberg, but EIS grad and instructor David Alfonso.

Also to those looking in, there are areas of serialism and outside octave dissonances in the course, you just need to know how to apply them.


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## Frederick Russ (Feb 8, 2005)

Oops - sorry Davids :?


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