# PA going to Subscription too



## Garlu (Jul 15, 2019)

It seems like Plugin Alliance is moving towards a subscription model (keep also their business model of one time purchases).








PA MEGA XXL yearly


Industry-leading subscription plan! 180 Plugins & Modular FX, and keep your 10 favorites every year! ALL our products incl. Gig Performer, PA MEGA Sampler & BX Mastering App. New! Access to PA BETA!




www.plugin-alliance.com





$249 for a whole year, accessing all plugins.

Personally, I have spent a LOT of money on PA, buying what I needed, and it's a bit frustrating to see that access now to all in one package for that amount (that sometimes I paid only for 1 plugin!). I guess those $29/plugin offers were also part of the move...

I hope they don't drop any products like Slate did with Relab's LX480 or Scuffham's S-Gear, that creates some problems if I want to open older files (got already LX480 but will have to get Sge

Thoughts?

Garlu


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 15, 2019)

Garlu said:


> It seems like Plugin Alliance is moving towards a subscription model (keep also their business model of one time purchases).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you spent a lot of money with PA you should have a discount code sent to you for the subscription


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## BGvanRens (Jul 15, 2019)

I wonder if I should take it, I personally want that new Ampeg sim which already is good for well over 50% of the yearly sub. There are probably a couple more I want to have. I just don't like subscriptions. Last one I bought was the SPL Iron and a week later it was on sale for a lot less (and I bought it with some discount already).


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 15, 2019)

BGvanRens said:


> I wonder if I should take it, I personally want that new Ampeg sim which already is good for well over 50% of the yearly sub. There are probably a couple more I want to have. I just don't like subscriptions. Last one I bought was the SPL Iron and a week later it was on sale for a lot less (and I bought it with some discount already).



Personally I like subscriptions more than trial periods because you can really get a feel for which plugins stay in your workflow or not. I just ended my Eastwest composer cloud subscription because now I never use their instruments. plugin alliance stuff has been in my work flow a lot to offset some of the weight of UAD plugins that use a lot of DSP....

PA seem to have good deals on the plugins if you want to buy. Not much to lose I think


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## zolhof (Jul 15, 2019)

Garlu said:


> I hope they don't drop any products like Slate did with Relab's LX480 or Scuffham's S-Gear, that creates some problems if I want to open older files (got already LX480 but will have to get Sge



According to the "Plugin Guarantee" policy, you should be safe. I'd screenshot the hell out of that page before committing though.




Garlu said:


> Thoughts?



Not a fan of subscription plans. If only PA went for a rent-to-own model, I'd join in a heartbeat.


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## JEPA (Jul 15, 2019)

zolhof said:


> If only PA went for a rent-to-own model, I'd join in a heartbeat.


this +1


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## rrichard63 (Jul 15, 2019)

chocobitz825 said:


> Not much to lose I think


I agree. Subscription plans are fine as long as (1) they are an alternative to perpetual licenses rather than the only option, and (2) you keep your existing licenses when you sign up. There's one possible limitation here, though. With a subscription option available, PA's discounts on perpetual licenses might become less frequent and/or less generous.


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## rrichard63 (Jul 15, 2019)

The PA website doesn't mention Gobbler, iLok or any other subscription/license enforcement mechanism. What are they going to use? Does it require a continuous internet connection, or only a brief connection once a month to renew licenses?


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## SoNowWhat? (Jul 15, 2019)

I have a few PA products and I like them. I’m not a fan of subscriptions though. I’m opting out for now. I don’t really need anything so I guess that’s easy to say. Do the discount codes expire? I didn’t read anything about that in the email (but I haven’t checked the link yet).


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## lpuser (Jul 15, 2019)

SoNowWhat? said:


> I didn’t read anything about that in the email (but I haven’t checked the link yet).



Unfortunately they do expire quite soon. According to my mail, they are valid only until July 31.


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## Pedro Camacho (Jul 15, 2019)

Should be "Rent to Own" method. Meaning all money in the rent could be used to get lifetime software purchase.
Subs can be REALLY felt like a backstabb to people who purchased plugins there...


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## gsilbers (Jul 15, 2019)

yep. should be rent to own. 

i cannot fathom the idea the poeple are for the subcirption model when the tech is there to have rent to own.
you can demo 100 plugins, choose a few and pay to own. subsribe PA, waves, slate, etc. how many eq/compressors do you need?! 
subscription model is just a huge Up your ass give us money. which can lead to no more sales and also plugins to cost 10x more just so companies can justify its prices. 

say no to subscription models.


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 15, 2019)

rrichard63 said:


> The PA website doesn't mention Gobbler, iLok or any other subscription/license enforcement mechanism. What are they going to use? Does it require a continuous internet connection, or only a brief connection once a month to renew licenses?



Up until now there was an authorization using your pluginalliance account...I’m not sure if this means going forward it will check for authorization each time you load up a plug-in. I’ll give it a shot later.



Pedro Camacho said:


> Should be "Rent to Own" method. Meaning all money in the rent could be used to get lifetime software purchase.
> Subs can be REALLY felt like a backstabb to people who purchased plugins there...



How is it a backstab? You keep everything you already own and they still have a promotion right now to buy multiple plugins for I think up to 60% off.

Rent to own would be great but I have to wonder if that even makes sense given how many plugins they have and how they continue to add more. Rent to own only makes sense if you select a handful of plugins and pay those off. Otherwise how do you calculate where the monthly costs goes? Which plugins are being paid off first? A subscription model lets you use everything there is and will be. I appreciate that because if I ever quite the subscription I’ll know which plugins I wanted to buy and keep.


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## jaketanner (Jul 15, 2019)

chocobitz825 said:


> Up until now there was an authorization using your pluginalliance account...I’m not sure if this means going forward it will check for authorization each time you load up a plug-in. I’ll give it a shot later.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, but let's say you subscribe monthly for 6 months...That's about $150...then you decide you want to buy a plugin...how much is the plugin? They're usually pretty expensive, so you lay out another $100? to be conservative...that's $250 for ONE plugin...and then you still need the sub because you have used their other plugins in sessions already. Subscriptions are good ONLY, if you are committed 100% to using more than 50% of their plugins forever. Personally, because I own the ones I wanted already, there are only 2 new ones that I'd be interested in...the Purple and the FC console. So neither option would be suitable for me, as the buy out are pretty pricey still.


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## Brian Nowak (Jul 15, 2019)

Subscription sucks. Writing library music, I may have to make a customization long down the road to license something. I am much less likely to use any rented plugins because then I am beholden to keeping that subscription going if I ever have to alter something. 

The whole reason companies are doing this is because they figured out almost nobody is buying plugins at full price - in other words, plugin prices are inflated. 

So if you're doing vouchers and big flash sales and people are being picky and choosy, you're maybe getting $100-200 a year out of somebody. Instead, offer the "DEAL OF A LIFETIME" and stop doing flash sales and vouchers. No more introductory sales. Push people toward giving you $200-250 a year perpetually. Boom. Profits!

"But Brian! You can buy 6 plugins and get a 60% discount!" Sure, but price it out. You'll be spending anywhere from $400-600 to get that discount. So unless you REALLY want or need those you're still getting punished for buying. 

And that's the bait and switch. They're punishing you for shopping smart and ownership.


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 15, 2019)

jaketanner said:


> Yes, but let's say you subscribe monthly for 6 months...That's about $150...then you decide you want to buy a plugin...how much is the plugin? They're usually pretty expensive, so you lay out another $100? to be conservative...that's $250 for ONE plugin...and then you still need the sub because you have used their other plugins in sessions already. Subscriptions are good ONLY, if you are committed 100% to using more than 50% of their plugins forever. Personally, because I own the ones I wanted already, there are only 2 new ones that I'd be interested in...the Purple and the FC console. So neither option would be suitable for me, as the buy out are pretty pricey still.



This is why I can’t get this issue. In this worst case scenario you subscribe for 6 months and only want to buy one plugin, but are then conflicted because you’ve lost access to other plugins you’ve used from them? That’s why the subscription makes sense. If you’re likely to use a bunch of plugins from them that you haven’t already purchased, you now have the ability to. If you’re not interested in that many of their plugins, then you only buy what you need. If you’ve already bought plugins from them, you still own them.

The price of plugins are what they are, and knowing they’re expensive is why subscriptions work for businesses and certain consumers. There are some companies that totally abuse that, no doubt, but in the plugin market, if the choice was to pay $10,000 for a plugin suite like with waves, or do a subscription model at $20 a month, I’d rather the subscription.


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## Brian Nowak (Jul 15, 2019)

The problem is a plugin is only worth what people will pay for it. If 95% of people only buy a plugin when it's on a flash sale, that's all the plugin is worth. Everything else is just smoke and mirrors of marketing. 

All plugin subscriptions should be rent to own. That way if I take a gamble on a year I will at least have the option to have credit with the company to own something if there's a product I desire. 

And as far as I can tell, month to month isn't even available yet.


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 15, 2019)

Brian Nowak said:


> Subscription sucks. Writing library music, I may have to make a customization long down the road to license something. I am much less likely to use any rented plugins because then I am beholden to keeping that subscription going if I ever have to alter something.
> 
> The whole reason companies are doing this is because they figured out almost nobody is buying plugins at full price - in other words, plugin prices are inflated.
> 
> ...



But we were never entitled to sakes prices...what is this belief that companies are required to offer massive sales? Isn’t that just the expectation of a bunch of people used to Black Friday deals and binge spending? This new model maybe getting $100 more from a few users a year is supposed to be massive profit? They already cut the subscription cost for power users by up to 50%. If they did a subscription and stopped reading new product I would be worried, but so long as they continue to offer new stuff there is value in this model as well.


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## JEPA (Jul 15, 2019)

SoNowWhat? said:


> Do the discount codes expire?


31 July


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## storyteller (Jul 15, 2019)

I can't imagine sleeping well and knowing that all of my old projectes would be subject to me paying a subscription to have access to all of the plugins I used that day.

Also... side note. Anyone notice this emoji in this new layout? :dodgy: Awesome.


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 15, 2019)

Brian Nowak said:


> The problem is a plugin is only worth what people will pay for it. If 95% of people only buy a plugin when it's on a flash sale, that's all the plugin is worth. Everything else is just smoke and mirrors of marketing.
> 
> All plugin subscriptions should be rent to own. That way if I take a gamble on a year I will at least have the option to have credit with the company to own something if there's a product I desire.
> 
> And as far as I can tell, month to month isn't even available yet.




They had rent to own. Not sure how often it was used, but You can’t do rent to own on a full subscription. Giving people full access to everything you make and then letting them cash out 100% sounds like a poor business model. They’d have to go back to previous model of pick 10 plugins to pay off, or they would need to say that a certain percentage of your subscription fee goes toward a buy out.


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## Brian Nowak (Jul 15, 2019)

chocobitz825 said:


> They had rent to own. Not sure how often it was used, but You can’t do rent to own on a full subscription. Giving people full access to everything you make and then letting them cash out 100% sounds like a poor business model. They’d have to go back to previous model of pick 10 plugins to pay off, or they would need to say that a certain percentage of your subscription fee goes toward a buy out.



That's not a bad business model at all. If somebody pays $200-250 a year that might be one full price plugin a year. It's hardly hurting them. 

Whereas a consumer who goes in for several years is giving them a fair amount of money and owning nothing. 

Sure, this type of stuff benefits amateurs and people who have literally nothing. Anybody who is actually doing music as a profession is bound to be wary of subscriptions for reasons already mentioned.

Businesses don't offer subscription models because it ends up benefiting the user base. Just like they don't offer sales because people feel "entitled" to them, which is a backward, servile type of mentality.

Simply put, almost nobody is buying at full price which means there is no inherent value to the product being offered. If most people are only willing to buy a single console emulation for $100 once a year, then $200+ a year makes a lot more profit. Plus you'll finally wrangle in the looky-loo types that have just enough monthly cash flow to rent but never enough money to buy. 

No matter which way you shine up that turd, it's still not good for users and favors the company in a massive way.


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## jaketanner (Jul 15, 2019)

chocobitz825 said:


> This is why I can’t get this issue. In this worst case scenario you subscribe for 6 months and only want to buy one plugin, but are then conflicted because you’ve lost access to other plugins you’ve used from them? That’s why the subscription makes sense. If you’re likely to use a bunch of plugins from them that you haven’t already purchased, you now have the ability to. If you’re not interested in that many of their plugins, then you only buy what you need. If you’ve already bought plugins from them, you still own them.
> 
> The price of plugins are what they are, and knowing they’re expensive is why subscriptions work for businesses and certain consumers. There are some companies that totally abuse that, no doubt, but in the plugin market, if the choice was to pay $10,000 for a plugin suite like with waves, or do a subscription model at $20 a month, I’d rather the subscription.



I mix professionally...so in my case, since I have the plugins that I like to use, and have created my sound with them, a subscription doesn't work. Why...because say I subscribe for a month or two during a project...after it's over I don't need the plugins, and then I unsubscribe. But then a client asks for a revision...I then pay again for the monthly, for that ONE time use. Yes, it's not the end of the world, but it's a lease...I'd like to know that years down the road, I can just recall whatever because I own them. So multiply this subscription scenario across a few subs...then to recall a project I need to spend upwards of $50 if I have multiple subscriptions? 

This idea was great when there was ONE company doing it...now everyone has one, so what are we supposed to do, spend $100 a month to "rent" plugins we don't own...$1200 a year for what? I'd rather they lowered the prices and made them more accessible to people, OR at the very least, offer many different options. Why cancel previous options, instead just ADD new ones...then ALL bases are covered and everyone is happy. Either way, they would have Meade money, and probably more so. But now it's two options...buy 6 plugins to get a decent discount, or subscribe. 

I do want to share one small loophole I found. If you add one of the larger ticket plugins that came out, add in the vouchers we received today, then add 5 small ticket option plugins...the $29 ones, and you get the 60% off tier, plus add the monthly voucher code, and it's actually CHEAPER than if you bought the ONE plugin. Makes not sense...if that's the case, just offer us the deal for one...LOL


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 15, 2019)

Brian Nowak said:


> That's not a bad business model at all. If somebody pays $200-250 a year that might be one full price plugin a year. It's hardly hurting them.
> 
> Whereas a consumer who goes in for several years is giving them a fair amount of money and owning nothing.
> 
> ...



I suppose maybe this has to do with my circle of professionals. Most of the ones against the subscription model are people who don’t make enough money out of their work to really invest. Most of them are choosing between rent or a new plugin. Mix engineers and producers, and studios have generally been optimistic about this because they get the full range of products and newer products and make enough from their businesses to buy the things they really need if/when they need it.

Not all subs are great. I just ended my pro tools and east west ones because I didn’t feel they were providing continued value in updates and reliability. I also just never used them so it made no sense to continue. Waves charging a fee to upgrade to the next version of support on your plugins is terrible too, so I quit most of my waves plugins as well. We’ll have to see how this goes but if there is continued investment and value, cool.


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 15, 2019)

jaketanner said:


> I mix professionally...so in my case, since I have the plugins that I like to use, and have created my sound with them, a subscription doesn't work. Why...because say I subscribe for a month or two during a project...after it's over I don't need the plugins, and then I unsubscribe. But then a client asks for a revision...I then pay again for the monthly, for that ONE time use. Yes, it's not the end of the world, but it's a lease...I'd like to know that years down the road, I can just recall whatever because I own them. So multiply this subscription scenario across a few subs...then to recall a project I need to spend upwards of $50 if I have multiple subscriptions?
> 
> This idea was great when there was ONE company doing it...now everyone has one, so what are we supposed to do, spend $100 a month to "rent" plugins we don't own...$1200 a year for what? I'd rather they lowered the prices and made them more accessible to people, OR at the very least, offer many different options. Why cancel previous options, instead just ADD new ones...then ALL bases are covered and everyone is happy. Either way, they would have Meade money, and probably more so. But now it's two options...buy 6 plugins to get a decent discount, or subscribe.
> 
> I do want to share one small loophole I found. If you add one of the larger ticket plugins that came out, add in the vouchers we received today, then add 5 small ticket option plugins...the $29 ones, and you get the 60% off tier, plus add the monthly voucher code, and it's actually CHEAPER than if you bought the ONE plugin. Makes not sense...if that's the case, just offer us the deal for one...LOL



If you found value in those plugins, why are you using the subscription like a rental service? Why would you only join the service for one project? If these were such common go to plugins, wouldn’t it make sense to continue your subscription?


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## jaketanner (Jul 15, 2019)

chocobitz825 said:


> If you found value in those plugins, why are you using the subscription like a rental service? Why would you only join the service for one project? If these were such common go to plugins, wouldn’t it make sense to continue your subscription?



I own the plugins from PA that I wanted already. I only really want the new FC console plugin...but to get that at a decent price, I'd have to buy 5 $29 plugins...LOL

The scenario was hypothetical...reason is say I wanted to really use the Ampeg amp on a bass, or the project called for another specialty boutique plugin...I'll do the sub for those, but then that's it. 

happened a few times in the past where I used a guitar amp from Avid...Eleven, because at the time, it was one of the better ones. Once the project finished, a year later the client needed stems for live performances...so then rent the plugin again. Strap this across a few different developers, and it can add up. That's why I think lowering the prices to be more affordable, people will buy more. Quantity of sales, BUT not at the cost of quality. One example that frustrates me is a totally different area: VSTis...so a company like Performance Samples, has their Con Moto series of instruments priced way above the norm, and offers only a limited articulation. It's a very very good articulation, but not worth what they're asking for...but they'd rather keep the high price, instead of lowering it to where it makes sense, and get many more people to buy it. Anyway...just venting. LOL 

I guess all these debates really comes down to individual needs of the customer. Some will find a use for the subscriptions, and others won't.


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 15, 2019)

https://www.greenhousedata.com/blog/getting-savvy-about-software-licensing-can-save-thousands

Interesting article about the IT world and licensing. Honestly, this is how it works out well for me and my accountant. Subscriptions are operational expenses I can generally write off each year. 

You do present an interesting case though if using this model to just rent plugins on an as needed basis. As an expense it just costs you $25 to revisit that project later and adjust it, rather than buy the plugin for its full cost. I suppose professionals have to consider if that’s a reasonable cost for their business.


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## jaketanner (Jul 15, 2019)

chocobitz825 said:


> I suppose maybe this has to do with my circle of professionals. Most of the ones against the subscription model are people who don’t make enough money out of their work to really invest.



Not exactly true. Most of us mixers already spent money to own the plugins they now offer in the sub...so to gain access to only a few new ones, is not worth it. That's the issue especially with the PA model...many people already bought most all of them, so why pay $25 a month? For a few they don't have? That's the part that makes no sense...it's great for new customers, or people that have very little to no plugins...but not for those of us who already have many.


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## artomatic (Jul 15, 2019)

No thanks.


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 15, 2019)

jaketanner said:


> Not exactly true. Most of us mixers already spent money to own the plugins they now offer in the sub...so to gain access to only a few new ones, is not worth it. That's the issue especially with the PA model...many people already bought most all of them, so why pay $25 a month? For a few they don't have? That's the part that makes no sense...it's great for new customers, or people that have very little to no plugins...but not for those of us who already have many.



Then wouldn’t that make this entire thing a non issue for mixers like you? If you already own everything you want and need, then this shift has no impact on you. For the professionals who did not buy into plugin alliance yet, or those who only had a few and want the full range it makes sense. On top of that, if you already own most of the plugins you can get the subscription for as low as 50% off. They sent out codes to frequent users to allow a discount on the subscription.


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## Brian Nowak (Jul 15, 2019)

chocobitz825 said:


> Then wouldn’t that make this entire thing a non issue for mixers like you? If you already own everything you want and need, then this shift has no impact on you. For the professionals who did not buy into plugin alliance yet, or those who only had a few and want the full range it makes sense. On top of that, if you already own most of the plugins you can get the subscription for as low as 50% off. They sent out codes to frequent users to allow a discount on the subscription.



I think that most people with an issue here just don't want to get into a subscription model, for which there have been plenty of explanations as to why.

What is being lamented is the fact that likely, flash sales and vouchers are probably going to go bye-bye, which means people can either pay inflated prices for a plugin or two they're actually interested in, buy 6 plugins so they can get a good discount on one or two plugin they want, or they can get into a subscription that they don't want to be tied to.

I mean - not very many people are willing to buy a channel strip emulation for $350 these days. If they time their purchase correctly they can get Ableton Live Suite for just a bit more. An entire sound design based DAW you can own for a lifetime without needing to pay more, or 2 year s of subscription to a plugin service?


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## WindcryMusic (Jul 15, 2019)

Brian Nowak said:


> I think that most people with an issue here just don't want to get into a subscription model, for which there have been plenty of explanations as to why.
> 
> What is being lamented is the fact that likely, flash sales and vouchers are probably going to go bye-bye, which means people can either pay inflated prices for a plugin or two they're actually interested in, buy 6 plugins so they can get a good discount on one or two plugin they want, or they can get into a subscription that they don't want to be tied to.
> 
> I mean - not very many people are willing to buy a channel strip emulation for $350 these days. If they time their purchase correctly they can get Ableton Live Suite for just a bit more. An entire sound design based DAW you can own for a lifetime without needing to pay more, or 1 year subscription to a plugin service.



Yes, that's it exactly, I think. Personally, I paid around $100 apiece for each of three PA channel strips (SSLx2 and Neve) after various vouchers and such, and that felt like a reasonable price to me. $300 for the same plugin would not have felt reasonable ... not even to mention the standalone EQs and compressors that are in that same price range. My assumption until now has been that PA overpriced its plugins at retail in order to make their sale prices look especially enticing (and it worked!), not because they actually thought they should be getting $300 per plugin. I mean, the plugins are pretty good, but THAT good? The problem for some is that now, if the flash sales disappear or are muted (which looks likely, based upon Dirk's FB statement and the underwhelming heavy hitter discounts on these newest plugins), then their plugins are no longer a good value if they are going to be ~$200 even after voucher codes ... that is, unless one is willing to go the subscription route. Which many (including myself) are not.

Personally I'm not complaining, though, since I've already purchased most of what interested me from PA (as I've said elsewhere). As far as I am concerned, I've won at PA poker. I'll miss the game going forward, but I'm certainly not unhappy with my winnings, and expect to get good use out of these 30+ plugins for many years to come.


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## dzilizzi (Jul 15, 2019)

i have never paid full price for their plugins. And frankly, it is not worth the $179 they want to charge me per year. So, I guess I am not really getting anything new from them for a while.


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## dzilizzi (Jul 15, 2019)

chocobitz825 said:


> I suppose maybe this has to do with my circle of professionals. Most of the ones against the subscription model are people who don’t make enough money out of their work to really invest. Most of them are choosing between rent or a new plugin. Mix engineers and producers, and studios have generally been optimistic about this because they get the full range of products and newer products and make enough from their businesses to buy the things they really need if/when they need it.
> 
> Not all subs are great. I just ended my pro tools and east west ones because I didn’t feel they were providing continued value in updates and reliability. I also just never used them so it made no sense to continue. Waves charging a fee to upgrade to the next version of support on your plugins is terrible too, so I quit most of my waves plugins as well. We’ll have to see how this goes but if there is continued investment and value, cool.


This! I am a hobbyist. I don't make money from my music. I will continue with PT for 3 more years (I bought ahead) after which I will re-evaluate the value of it. But I do take exception to including EW in these subscription models. They still sell, have sales, etc... Plus, you can subscribe for a month, quit and resubscribe for a month with no penalties. 

I also don't think Waves falls into this. People complain, but I rarely WUP unless they have something worth WUP'ing for, and then I wait for a sale. Most companies charge for upgrades, even if an upgrade is making the product work with your new OS. I'd blame Apple before I blame Waves.


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## jaketanner (Jul 15, 2019)

NEWS FLASH!!! Anyone who owns a Focusrite Clarett or RED interface gets the FC console FREE!!!! Check your emails.


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## wst3 (Jul 15, 2019)

I'm no fan of subscription models, the only one that worked - in my mind - was Cakewalk Sonar, and while that worked for us consumers, you can see where it took the company.

I own quite a few of the P/A plugins, and most of them get quite a bit of use. The only one in the current new release pile that really interests me is the Purple Audio compressor, although that channel strip could be cool. I may end up buying the Purple Audio plugin, or I may just cool my heels and see what happens.

I wish nothing but the best for Brainworx and Plugin-Alliance, but their new model just doesn't suit my needs. And that's ok, I'm not necesarilly "typical".


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## Quasar (Jul 15, 2019)

dzilizzi said:


> i have never paid full price for their plugins. And frankly, it is not worth the $179 they want to charge me per year. So, I guess I am not really getting anything new from them for a while.


I got the same $179 offer, and have unsubscribed from their mailing list. I've only bought a few things from them, and always at deep sale prices (their full prices are laughably absurd), so I am no doubt not the kind of customer they prefer anyway...

...Even before all of this subscription hype, they'd alienated me due to their continuous and confusing sleight-of-hand marketing. Besides the strong objections I have to software subscription models - which exist only to create recurring revenue streams for developers and investors at the expense of a fair deal for the end user - aggressive & complicated, ever-shifting arrays of changing pricing packages are simply too damned much trouble. I have neither the time nor the inclination to even attempt to sort it all out. IMHO Izotope, among others, is guilty of such purposeful obfuscation too.

Compare this to, say, FabFilter or Tokyo Dawn. Their prices are what they are in a very straightforward way, with occasional and clearly-defined sales. FF, though expensive, has a rewards system that is extremely easy to decipher. These developers are not trying to confuse us with tricks and gimmicks.

Not that it matters to me much. As an amateur who has wasted too much cash, I concluded some time ago that there is much wisdom in the whole "learn how to use your stock plugins" school of thought, and that I already have way, way more than sufficient effects tools for creating music at home.


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## Michael Antrum (Jul 15, 2019)

As a hobbyist, this business model doesn’t work for me either. And it seems to be highly infectious.

I bought a couple of courses from Alain at Scoreclub, and he is now redoing his site to go subscription only. I got an email saying the monthly cost would be $78 a month, albeit with an unspecified discount for people who had previously purchased courses from him.

Now his courses are pretty damn good, and He’s an excellent tutor, but that’s a bit rich for me, and I suspect a fair few others. 

Adobe have got a lot to answer for starting this particular bandwagon....


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## dzilizzi (Jul 15, 2019)

Michael Antrum said:


> As a hobbyist, this business model doesn’t work for me either. And it seems to be highly infectious.
> 
> I bought a couple of courses from Alain at Scoreclub, and he is now redoing his site to go subscription only. I got an email saying the monthly cost would be $78 a month, albeit with an unspecified discount for people who had previously purchased courses from him.
> 
> ...


I didn't see the email yet. I think I own one or two of his trainings. I guess that will be it for me, unless he gives the option to buy.


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## jaketanner (Jul 15, 2019)

Quasar said:


> I got the same $179 offer, and have unsubscribed from their mailing list. I've only bought a few things from them, and always at deep sale prices (their full prices are laughably absurd), so I am no doubt not the kind of customer they prefer anyway...
> 
> ...Even before all of this subscription hype, they'd alienated me due to their continuous and confusing sleight-of-hand marketing. Besides the strong objections I have to software subscription models - which exist only to create recurring revenue streams for developers and investors at the expense of a fair deal for the end user - aggressive & complicated, ever-shifting arrays of changing pricing packages are simply too damned much trouble. I have neither the time nor the inclination to even attempt to sort it all out. IMHO Izotope, among others, is guilty of such purposeful obfuscation too.
> 
> ...



The main issue I feel they're so overpriced, is that they have to pay licensing fees for the "official" sanction of the hardware. And that's all cool too...I'd rather have an emulation be as close to the original...but not priced as such, when there are many other options that are also very good.


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 15, 2019)

I do find it strange that software emulation of gear that costs thousands of dollars is now in the digital, at a range of a few hundred..but that’s still too much and considered predatory pricing by some.

I look at the tube tech full collection you can get for a few hundred dollars, when the hardware itself is $4000 plus for the compressor alone.

We’re able to make full on functional home studios for a fraction of the cost of an analog based studio. Companies not pricing low enough to please hobbyists just doesn’t seem like a major problem to me in this field of business. 


As for subscriptions giving people more than they need, some might think less is more and your stock plugins are enough. Others might like to color with different plugins and experiment. Having more plugins doesn’t make you better at using them and you have to learn to mix well, but if you’re of the mindset of treating mixing as a creative process rather than an obligatory process, more plugins can inspire some people. 

I get it though, I’m not gonna change anyone’s mind here. Hopefully everyone still finds th plugins they want and need at a price point that is reasonable.


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## Quasar (Jul 15, 2019)

jaketanner said:


> The main issue I feel they're so overpriced, is that they have to pay licensing fees for the "official" sanction of the hardware. And that's all cool too...I'd rather have an emulation be as close to the original...but not priced as such, when there are many other options that are also very good.



Good points. Since the whole plugin universe has expanded so explosively (by some order of magnitude certainly) over the past few years, it's only natural that various niche markets develop for various use-case scenarios, and it's inevitable that we see a vast array of marketing strategies and tactics. Depending on whether one is rich or poor, pro or hobbyist, needs name-brand imprimaturs for PR or not, etc., what may be a sensible purchase for one may be irrational for another. There is no absolute right vs. wrong here...

...But I believe, practically speaking, that the proverbial cat is out of the bag insofar as it becomes ever more generally true (and known) that all of the essential ways in which one might wish to manipulate audio: isolate bands, adjust specific frequencies, modulate tonal/harmonic/amplitude characteristics, statically or dynamically etc., this can all be accomplished without spending a lot of money. There are always other options, even if in some cases an alternative doesn't have your favorite GUI or adds an extra workflow step or whatever. IOW the saturation market is saturated, and there is no longer any such thing as a "must have" except as a matter of preference for _how_ one chooses to achieve a given end. 

I further believe that this glut of usable options is a huge part of the reason why audio effects companies are so often frantically resorting to "creative" marketing tactics to distinguish themselves in the crowd. But yeah, it's all cool. Consumers who have more money than sense may well be the seeders, the driving economic force behind new innovation and development.


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## JEPA (Jul 15, 2019)

PA is playing with the illusion that everybody wants to own everything. I am happy with the few and specific plugins I need, I don't want to own unnecessary garbage.. It's like a guitar player owning all pedals.. for what? Each artist builds his own sound with specific gear, that's it! There are specific plugins from PA I like and I want to own, but everything? not for me


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 15, 2019)

JEPA said:


> PA is playing with the illusion that everybody wants to own everything. I am happy with the few and specific plugins I need, I don't want to own unnecessary garbage.. It's like a guitar player owning all pedals.. for what? Each artist builds his own sound with specific gear, that's it! There are specific plugins from PA I like and I want to own, but everything? not for me



100 plugins for a hobbyist may seem a bit much, but many pro studios have up to 100 various effects/preamps/compressors easily. When working out of sony studio here in Japan, I believe they have easily up to 75, maybe a hundred various analog gear. Having that much means nothing if you dont know how to use them or why you'd use certain ones for certain use cases, but offering this variety of plugins for certain professionals does make sense.

Its also an assumption to say that all musicians use only a few effects or gear and that's it. It depends on what type of creator you are. Some people have tons of gear. I mean, isn't Junkie XL basically a gearhead too? How many guitars does the average pro guitarist own? More than a hobbyist no doubt, and for reasons most people with limited budget wouldn't understand.


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## JEPA (Jul 15, 2019)

chocobitz825 said:


> 100 plugins for a hobbyist may seem a bit much, but many pro studios have up to 100 various effects/preamps/compressors easily. When working out of sony studio here in Japan, I believe they have easily up to 75, maybe a hundred various analog gear. Having that much means nothing if you dont know how to use them or why you'd use certain ones for certain use cases, but offering this variety of plugins for certain professionals does make sense.
> 
> Its also an assumption to say that all musicians use only a few effects or gear and that's it. It depends on what type of creator you are. Some people have tons of gear. I mean, isn't Junkie XL basically a gearhead too?


I own tons of plugins but I'm not interested in every plugin from PA, I _choose_ every plugin I have bought carefully oriented to what I plan to do with it. And everybody acts different, I have said "not for ME"

EDIT: and I see the incongruence, I have said the "few" plugins (in context of the gazillion in existence) but I own "tons" (in context of what I am capable to control... It's the time where I have to open my yellow pages to search for a plugin I don't find  )


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## JEPA (Jul 15, 2019)

it's like with Waves, I don't want everything from Waves, I want only specifc plugins from them (I think I have all from them I want)


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## JEPA (Jul 15, 2019)

for example, I know Output plugins/libraries, I don't want anything from them, although they sound great, but I don't want any from them...


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 15, 2019)

JEPA said:


> it's like with Waves, I don't want everything from Waves, I want only specifc plugins from them (I think I have all from them I want)



I can relate to this. This particular option has appealed to me because I’ve moved away from waves and I’m phasing most of their stuff out of my workflow. I have a fair amount of UAD plugins as well, but DSP walls sometime cause issue and plugin alliance offers a lot of great option that fill gaps for me. At $25 a month it’s a bit high, but since I got it 50% off, I’m willing to give it a try and see if it has value beyond this year.

For context though, it will cost me $156 to upgrade 15 waves plugins by 2020...given that I own more than 15 waves plugins this cost every couple of years is unappealing to me.


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## SoNowWhat? (Jul 15, 2019)

chocobitz825 said:


> 100 plugins for a hobbyist may seem a bit much, but many pro studios have up to 100 various effects/preamps/compressors easily. When working out of sony studio here in Japan, I believe they have easily up to 75, maybe a hundred various analog gear. Having that much means nothing if you dont know how to use them or why you'd use certain ones for certain use cases, but offering this variety of plugins for certain professionals does make sense.
> 
> Its also an assumption to say that all musicians use only a few effects or gear and that's it. It depends on what type of creator you are. Some people have tons of gear. I mean, isn't Junkie XL basically a gearhead too? How many guitars does the average pro guitarist own? More than a hobbyist no doubt, and for reasons most people with limited budget wouldn't understand.


The difference I’d note with someone like Junkie or the Sony example is that they own that gear. If they want to continue to use it they’re not paying every month or year for the privilege (servicing aside I guess). I’m with @JEPA and @Quasar on this one, I have the plugins I want from Waves and PA based on what they offer currently. I don’t need anymore and I don’t need to continue to buy more and more stuff. I appreciate that developers need support but at the end of the day so do I and so does my family.


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## JEPA (Jul 15, 2019)

SoNowWhat? said:


> The difference I’d note with someone like Junkie or the Sony example is that they own that gear.


that's it!


chocobitz825 said:


> I’m willing to give it a try and see if it has value beyond this year.


and after that year if they had "rent to own" model or "option buy" you could choose if staying subscripted or buying/owning the plugin you need more or the plugins you have seen worked for you. Maybe after that year you see you don't use 80% of what they offer.


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## lp59burst (Jul 15, 2019)

gsilbers said:


> yep. should be rent to own.
> 
> i cannot fathom the idea the poeple are for the subcirption model when the tech is there to have rent to own.
> you can demo 100 plugins, choose a few and pay to own. subsribe PA, waves, slate, etc. how many eq/compressors do you need?!
> ...



Subscription, lease, rental, time-shares... they're all the same thing - you get a service, or the use of something, for an agreed to period of time then, unless you want to pay again (renew), the deals done... so where exactly are you going to draw the line...

No more, Netflix, Spotify, Adobe, Avid, Slate, PA, ComposerCloud, rental cars, all the airlines, all hotels, Air BnB, cruise ships, tickets to the show, apartments, internet connection via ISP, cell phone service, movie theater tickets, studio time, cable TV, public transportation... etc... etc... etc...?   

<_Moved by me from deals thread since it's better suited here..._>


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## lp59burst (Jul 15, 2019)

Hmm.. do the UAD plugins work if you don't have the hardware? No. So even if you own all of their plug-ins and your hardware unit stops working you have to buy a new one in order to use the plug-ins that you own... right?

I'm open to all models because then you have options, if you like subscriptions then subscribe, if you'd rather own proprietary hardware required to use your plug-ins, that's great; then do that, if you like to have a mix of specific plug-ins from various vendors then just buy the ones you want, and if the plug-ins that come packaged with your DAW are good enough for you then even better.

Choice is what makes all of these models valuable, I for one am glad that we have numerous choices and happily I take advantage of several of them.

I got the PA subscription because with my loyalty discount it was ~$12.50/mo for as long as I want to stay subscribed. That's three less coffees a month, or one less movie, or one less Uber ride when I could take the bus, or... well I think you get the picture...


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## dzilizzi (Jul 15, 2019)

lp59burst said:


> Subscription, lease, rental, time-shares... they're all the same thing - you get a service, or the use of something, for an agreed to period of time then, unless you want to pay again (renew), the deals done... so where exactly are you going to draw the line...
> 
> No more, Netflix, Spotify, Adobe, Avid, Eventide, Slate, ComposerCloud, rental cars, all the airlines, all hotels, Air BnB, cruise ships, tickets to the show, apartments, internet connection via ISP, cell phone service, movie theater tickets, studio time, cable TV, public transportation... etc... etc... etc...?
> 
> <_Moved by me from deals thread since it's better suited here..._>


Well, some things make sense to rent. Like a car in a place you are visiting but don't plan on coming back to. Or a TV show you probably won't want to rewatch. Or a plugin you use once a year and can bounce an audio of it for later use. Kind of like renting a very expensive mic for a recording session. But I don't wan to pay for a year for something I don't use every day and don't make money from. My husband recently cancelled our Netflix subscription because the movies just weren't being updated enough for him and I hardly watched it. 

It really comes down to "is this worth it for you?" Everyone's situation is different. I probably wouldn't buy any PA plugins except I got most for less than $25. They aren't the first things I grab. Now someone else would pay $100 for that same plugin and be very happy because it saves the piece they are working on. 

I tend to thing the subscription model makes more sense for businesses. You can deduct the expense, you stay up to date, and you have a lot more to give to a customer. Especially for a studio with different customers coming in. For a hobbyist who still uses a photo editing program from 2006, subscriptions make no sense.


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## lp59burst (Jul 15, 2019)

dzilizzi said:


> Well, some things make sense to rent. Like a car in a place you are visiting but don't plan on coming back to. Or a TV show you probably won't want to rewatch. Or a plugin you use once a year and can bounce an audio of it for later use. Kind of like renting a very expensive mic for a recording session. But I don't wan to pay for a year for something I don't use every day and don't make money from. My husband recently cancelled our Netflix subscription because the movies just weren't being updated enough for him and I hardly watched it.
> 
> It really comes down to "is this worth it for you?" Everyone's situation is different. I probably wouldn't buy any PA plugins except I got most for less than $25. They aren't the first things I grab. Now someone else would pay $100 for that same plugin and be very happy because it saves the piece they are working on.
> 
> I tend to thing the subscription model makes more sense for businesses. You can deduct the expense, you stay up to date, and you have a lot more to give to a customer. Especially for a studio with different customers coming in. For a hobbyist who still uses a photo editing program from 2006, subscriptions make no sense.


I agree completely. Not a good deal for you.

My comment is more towards the opinion that some have that "_there's no good use for subscriptions, total waste of money..._" which is just not the case.

I'm not saying that's your opinion, I'm just pointing out that subscriptions are all around us every day and that most are just accepted without even taking notice... I was just highlighting a few...


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## wst3 (Jul 15, 2019)

If I only had a handful of PA plugins, but knew that I wanted a bunch I'd subscribe, it would be a very cost effective solution.

However, I have all of their plugins that appeal to me, and the cost to add one or two new plugins that are interesting is just not there. I will continue to purchase outright. (I couldn't even come up with a pick-pack when that was a thing.

I have no issue with their pricing, or their subscription plan.

Although I will admit that once they started doing their flash sales I stopped buying at regular prices, with or without vouchers. If there had been something I desperately needed for a project then full price would be an option, but that hasn't happened yet.

I wish them luck!


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## dzilizzi (Jul 15, 2019)

lp59burst said:


> I agree completely. Not a good deal for you.
> 
> My comment is more towards the opinion that some have that "_there's no good use for subscriptions, total waste of money..._" which is just not the case.
> 
> I'm not saying that's your opinion, I'm just stating that subscriptions are all around us every day and that most are just accepted without even taking notice... I was just pointing out a few...


Though truthfully, if I could by Adobe Photoshop, I would. It has some great tools. But I'm not making any money from my photography either, so the exorbitant price to rent everything Adobe has just to use Photoshop once a month kind of annoys me. Subscriptions only are good if they also give you an option to buy the little bit you need. 

And I was kind of agreeing with you as well.


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## mixtur (Jul 15, 2019)

chocobitz825 said:


> I can relate to this. This particular option has appealed to me because I’ve moved away from waves and I’m phasing most of their stuff out of my workflow. I have a fair amount of UAD plugins as well, but DSP walls sometime cause issue and plugin alliance offers a lot of great option that fill gaps for me. At $25 a month it’s a bit high, but since I got it 50% off, I’m willing to give it a try and see if it has value beyond this year.
> 
> For context though, it will cost me $156 to upgrade 15 waves plugins by 2020...given that I own more than 15 waves plugins this cost every couple of years is unappealing to me.



And what happens when your subscription is over? You won't even be able to open your old sessions so you´re basically a hostage in a way (unless you print all the effects). 

My biggest gripe with subscriptions is that no vendor covers it all, so I´ll end up having to have a bunch of them (for samples, synts, DAW, effects etc) and that is going to be very expensive. PA in particular is very geared towards EQ, Compressors and Amps but very few reverbs, no tapes etc. It adds up quickly.


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## mixtur (Jul 15, 2019)

JEPA said:


> I own tons of plugins but I'm not interested in every plugin from PA, I _choose_ every plugin I have bought carefully oriented to what I plan to do with it. And everybody acts different, I have said "not for ME"
> 
> EDIT: and I see the incongruence, I have said the "few" plugins (in context of the gazillion in existence) but I own "tons" (in context of what I am capable to control... It's the time where I have to open my yellow pages to search for a plugin I don't find  )



Right, and you would otherwise be paying for all those plugins even if you only used 30% of them because there´s no such thing as a free lunch. PA Ultimately did this to make more money, not to save you money.

/J


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## mixtur (Jul 15, 2019)

chocobitz825 said:


> They had rent to own. Not sure how often it was used, but You can’t do rent to own on a full subscription. Giving people full access to everything you make and then letting them cash out 100% sounds like a poor business model. They’d have to go back to previous model of pick 10 plugins to pay off, or they would need to say that a certain percentage of your subscription fee goes toward a buy out.


They could have a subscription where they gave you credits based on how much rent you have paid, and enable you to cash plugin of your choice every now and then, or have you chose 10 or whatever. I think Roland had a subscription like that for a while, although they just recently changed it.


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## mixtur (Jul 15, 2019)

BGvanRens said:


> I wonder if I should take it, I personally want that new Ampeg sim which already is good for well over 50% of the yearly sub. There are probably a couple more I want to have. I just don't like subscriptions. Last one I bought was the SPL Iron and a week later it was on sale for a lot less (and I bought it with some discount already).



Yes, the pricing for perpetual licenses are now officially silly. 349 for all the new plugins and the sub for 179?

It would make sense to reduce the prices so that you perpetual licenses would be the equivalent of say renting them for, say, 3 years. Who is going to buy perpetual now when the subscription is so much less, and the resell value of any existing plugins are now probably much less now. 

I´m afraid I´d have to opt out for a while to see where all this is going. I was going to buy the AMPEG today, but went with Softube bass amp room for 49 instead (they also have Eden for 99).


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## jaketanner (Jul 15, 2019)

chocobitz825 said:


> Then wouldn’t that make this entire thing a non issue for mixers like you?



Yes, it's a non-issue, only because I already have everything...HOWEVER, PA is a great company for emulations, and they also provide emulations not found elsewhere. Specifically the Focusrite Console. Emulations of the 76 and Shadow Hills are among other developers that I have, so not thirsty for those really...nice to have, but not a must. Being a mixer, I always try and create a sound that no one else has...not just about getting balances or proper EQ...it's also about getting a true analog tone ITB...for me at least, since that's what I started with...When I was interning at the hit Factory, NY, Pro Tools was just in it's infancy in terms of large scale projects, and mostly out of reach for consumers since they only worked with their own interfaces...until the Mbox came out...but I digress. So yes, I don't really need the plugins, but when one comes out that's unique to the game, I like to own it. My deal is roughly around $200, maybe slightly less for the FC, so I have some time to think about it.


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## jaketanner (Jul 15, 2019)

For those who want a small loophole. I received a code for the FC at 20% off...so I experimented with the dynamic discount...and added 5 more of the cheapest plugins they have, and together with my $25 monthly voucher, I get the FC for less than $145. Still high, but I also get 5 other plugins that I may or may not use.. LOL Just in case some of you are wanting to mess with the numbers a bit.


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## sostenuto (Jul 15, 2019)

Leaning toward official Focusrite 'Refurb' Clarett 2Pre USB @ $320. 
console Focusrite SC is then free ..... _ if I'm reading Focusrite site correctly ...._


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## jaketanner (Jul 15, 2019)

sostenuto said:


> Leaning toward official Focusrite 'Refurb' Clarett 2Pre USB @ $320. console Focusrite SC is then free ..... _ if I'm reading Focusrite site correctly ...._



yes free, but make sure that you are able to register the clarets in your own account. but unless you need the interface, it's cheaper to do a dynamic discount.


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## Desire Inspires (Jul 15, 2019)

Subscriptions seem fair.


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## SoNowWhat? (Jul 15, 2019)

lp59burst said:


> Hmm.. do the UAD plugins work if you don't have the hardware? No. So even if you own all of their plug-ins and your hardware unit stops working you have to buy a new one in order to use the plug-ins that you own... right?
> 
> I'm open to all models because then you have options, if you like subscriptions then subscribe, if you'd rather own proprietary hardware required to use your plug-ins, that's great; then do that, if you like to have a mix of specific plug-ins from various vendors then just buy the ones you want, and if the plug-ins that come packaged with your DAW are good enough for you then even better.
> 
> ...


And you are also right my friend. If somebody wants to avail themselves of this offer then I am very happy for them. And I am not having a go at PA for changing their model. They are supporting those that have purchased up to this point (which is me) so I am happy. Is there still the option to buy single plugins outright? If so then this is the best of both worlds. As for pricing on those plugins well, if I want a thing and I can afford to buy at the asking price and I think it represents value to me at that price then happy days.


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## Quasar (Jul 15, 2019)

lp59burst said:


> ...I'm just pointing out that subscriptions are all around us every day and that most are just accepted without even taking notice... I was just highlighting a few...



Uncritical acceptance by large numbers of people is never a valid indicator of whether something is good or bad, right or wrong.


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## ironbut (Jul 15, 2019)

I have a number of their plugins but truth be told, I only use a couple regularly.
The last year or so, I've only bought a couple new non-instrument plugins (can't resist reverbs though).
Thinking I might just "unsubscribe" to their newsletters so I'm not tempted!


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## lp59burst (Jul 15, 2019)

Quasar said:


> Uncritical acceptance by large numbers of people is never a valid indicator of whether something is good or bad, right or wrong.


Agreed... but then again neither is the opposite...


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 15, 2019)

mixtur said:


> Yes, the pricing for perpetual licenses are now officially silly. 349 for all the new plugins and the sub for 179?
> 
> It would make sense to reduce the prices so that you perpetual licenses would be the equivalent of say renting them for, say, 3 years. Who is going to buy perpetual now when the subscription is so much less, and the resell value of any existing plugins are now probably much less now.
> 
> I´m afraid I´d have to opt out for a while to see where all this is going. I was going to buy the AMPEG today, but went with Softube bass amp room for 49 instead (they also have Eden for 99).



UAD's new capital chambers plugin is $349, plus you need their hardware to run it. Their pricing doesn't at all seem out of line with their competition and the type of plugins that they're doing which often seem to involve licensing brands.


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 15, 2019)

The biggest problem with subscriptions is that they compound very quickly. Unless a specific vendor is your daily bread and butter, it kind of kills the budget and removes discretion and the ability to be agile in the face of unforeseen events.

I somewhat regret even buying into Slate's subscription as I haven't used any of his products since NOV 2017 (or maybe 2016) when I signed on. I just haven't been doing any mixing or mastering work in that time, except quickie placeholder stuff which I do with iZotope's products in most cases.

This one's a toughie though, as I own most or all of the existing plug-ins, and probably WILL be using the Ampeg stuff if it's better than AmpliTube's version. At $149/year, it's way less than I normally spend with PA, but then it becomes mandatory, which I never like, especially if it gets to where this becomes the model for half a dozen or more vendors whose products I don't use very much.

Anyway, the subscription model is why I don't do Roland Cloud (I tried to buy some of their excellent soft synths, but the money was refunded as they no longer sell them as perpetual licenses), Netflix, Spotify, Adobe Cloud, etc. -- I can't predict when or if I'll next use such stuff, as I primarily focus on gigging, composing, arranging, playing, recording, my day job as a software audio engineer, etc.


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 15, 2019)

Mark Schmieder said:


> The biggest problem with subscriptions is that they compound very quickly. Unless a specific vendor is your daily bread and butter, it kind of kills the budget and removes discretion and the ability to be agile in the face of unforeseen events.
> 
> I somewhat regret even buying into Slate's subscription as I haven't used any of his products since NOV 2017 (or maybe 2016) when I signed on. I just haven't been doing any mixing or mastering work in that time, except quickie placeholder stuff which I do with iZotope's products in most cases.
> 
> This one's a toughie though, as I own most or all of the existing plug-ins, and probably WILL be using the Ampeg stuff if it's better than AmpliTube's version. At $149/year, it's way less than I normally spend with PA, but then it becomes mandatory, which I never like, especially if it gets to where this becomes the model for half a dozen or more vendors whose products I don't use very much.



why not just buy the few plugins you use from those developers and skip the subscription? Would that end up costing more than a subscription?


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 15, 2019)

Many no longer offer perpetual licenses, as I stated. It's a miracle that I got my Adobe Lightroom license to work on my new iMac, and also when I upgraded to Mojave. I use the product four times a year at most, but the alternatives don't satisfy me (yet), so I do need it. Just not my daily bread and butter. True of MOST service-based payment plans. I probably only watch two movies a year, for instance, and I only use Spotify to practice songs for gigs.


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 15, 2019)

Mark Schmieder said:


> Many no longer offer perpetual licenses, as I stated. It's a miracle that I got my Adobe Lightroom license to work on my new iMac, and also when I upgraded to Mojave. I use the product four times a year at most, but the alternatives don't satisfy me (yet), so I do need it. Just not my daily bread and butter. True of MOST service-based payment plans. I probably only watch two movies a year, for instance, and I only use Spotify to practice songs for gigs.



I would agree that the fields of productivity and design have gradually phased out perpetual licenses, and that is a disagreeable business model that has led me to other alternatives outside of the Microsoft and adobe fields. The plugin market, to my knowledge, has not done that yet and still offers the ability to buy what you want as is the same for digital media. Other than products made explicitly by the platform; you can purchase single songs or movies as you want. 

I would say, though, as much as I disagree with the productivity and design apps new subscription model, I have worked in numerous companies that commonly abused perpetual licenses. I worked for one large company that used to clone their single license of Windows and its productivity apps. From what I can tell, subscription models can protect the developers from pirating, but on the user end, for large corporations and professionals, it provides a more transparent financial plan, up to date security fixes and an upgrade path that should give most professional users a different sense of security. These subscriptions are leaving us casual users struggling to find a place, but it's not all just a cash grab. Piracy was a massive problem that could tank any company.


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 15, 2019)

quick note about how the licensing is working for PA with not ilok. I just opened up some plugins and it seems like after authorizing the plugin, it keeps a "leasing days left" counter on the app for the span of your lease. so if you paid for a year it will count 365 days, and i imagine if monthly it would count until the next month. So you would need to at least be connected to the internet once a month to verify your license on a monthly plan.


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 15, 2019)

Adobe is the most extreme example, as they hold your data captive. I don't think that would be possible with plug-in developers as they have no control over our DAW's. It isn't the cost that bothers me, as often it ends up cheaper.

It's just that it compounds too quickly if you are dealing with over sixty vendors (many for niche products) and they all follow that model at the same pricing scheme. Most of us can't predict our needs, or the regularity of them, that far out. Businesses usually can.

At $149, I will probably opt in, but reluctantly. I already owned all of Slate's stuff before I subscribed, and am hard pressed to think what has been added -- and not later rescinded -- since that time. I just can't predict how much I'll use the stuff, as I didn't expect I'd go this long without doing major mixing and mastering sessions. So subscriptions are quite a gamble for the end user, which is why I won't do Roland's as I rarely use synths anymore and would have preferred perpetual licenses. Of course, other factors can render those unusable even if the vendor doesn't throw in a time bomb or otherwise disable them.

There are other vendors that I seriously doubt I would ever consider subscribing to, as I use so little of what I own (e.g. Softube -- my favourite is probably their comprehensive Pultec channel strip). I'm really surprised that vendors such as Kush do subscriptions, as they have so few products. I bought the ones I like (including the new one this week). I really don't know how many PA plugs will find regular use as it's such a fast-changing field. I definitely find the Maag EQ's indispensable, and the Elysia stuff as well. Not sure the other stuff is as static in my regular workflow vs. getting challenged by newcomers.


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## wst3 (Jul 16, 2019)

mixtur said:


> Yes, the pricing for perpetual licenses are now officially silly. 349 for all the new plugins and the sub for 179?



Not picking on anyone in particular, but I keep reading that the plugin prices are too high. I'm not sure any of us is qualified to state that as fact. We can say the price is higher than we'd like to pay, but we can't make a blanket statement that it is too high.

The price of any product can be set in many ways - what the market will bear, cost plus, or somewhere in between.

We do not know how many man hours went into the development.

We do not know if they has to pay any license fees

We do not know how many copies they sell.

All of these are factors, and I would imagine it could be difficult to recoup costs even at $350 a pop. Not to mention you won't even be allowed to drool on the hardware for $350.

The new PA plan may succeed, it may fall flat on its face. That doesn't change the fact that they sell some really great plugins.

And we do maintain the right to vote with our wallets.

(For the record I will not be subscribing, I have a LOT of their plugins, and I'm having a difficult time imagining they will be developing that many more that will separate me from my money.)


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## KMA (Jul 16, 2019)

I won't be participating in a subscription model that doesn't include an option to own. Besides, I already own some of the plugins I would like to use from PA.

If they discontinue their sales, then I'm happy walking away. Lots of other products out there.


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 19, 2019)

Due to the clarification sent out today, I will be subscribing after all.

I first used my $75 voucher to erase the $49 upgrade cost of DSM V3, as that's a perpetual license.

Now that I know we won't lose our perpetual licenses by going subscription, it makes sense to sign up when there are five new plug-ins that would cost too much even with vouchers, and at least two of which I expect to be using regularly (such as the Ampeg).


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## NYC Composer (Jul 19, 2019)

Output has an interesting subscription model they’re presently using for their online sample player Arcade, which is my only subscription. I don’t know whether I’ll keep it going or not, but the idea is twofold:

1. They are constantly adding new sounds.
2. If you cancel, you can continue opening the projects you used it in, and the sounds will play.


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## JEPA (Jul 20, 2019)

My only subscription is with the Sonnox Elite Bundle, which I am entitled to own if I wish or I keep subscribed till I reach the cost of the bundle where I will own it. I can pause the subscription when I want.


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## JEPA (Jul 20, 2019)

From now I will invest only in plugins I need specifically from PluginAlliance (I was doing so anyway) and will wait with patience for a sale if there is one, if not then not.


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 20, 2019)

JEPA said:


> My only subscription is with the Sonnox Elite Bundle, which I am entitled to own if I wish or I keep subscribed till I reach the cost of the bundle where I will own it. I can pause the subscription when I want.



Thats not a subscription, thats a payment plan on a finite number of plugins at a set value. Subscriptions update their content without a finite price point in mind, but generally with the idea that the entire amount of product you use would probably take years, if not decades to pay off at the price at which you're paying to access them. For example, i think at $24 a month, if the whole of PA's line cost $10,000, it'd take you like 35 years to pay it off. (assuming the line never had anything new added over those 35 years to change the total)


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## JEPA (Jul 20, 2019)

they (Sonnox) handle it like a subscription, not me.


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 20, 2019)

JEPA said:


> they (Sonnox) handle it like a subscription, not me.


guess im missing the part in the site where it shows subscriptions.


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 20, 2019)

Ah I see now, the gobbler rent-to-own "subscription". Again, its a payment plan. Same way they have rent to own furniture and whatever else. Its a play on words for a concept that is basically just you rent it until you own its and if you fail to pay it all off, you don't get your money back. What you get is decided and finite, and you can pay it off within a reasonable time. To call it a subscription is just trying to make it sound better because payment plans sound like people are too poor to afford what they buy and that had a major negative image over time. The value of a payment plan/rent-to-own vs. a real modern subscription is totally different.


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## JEPA (Jul 20, 2019)

chocobitz825 said:


> Ah I see now, the gobbler rent-to-own "subscription". Again, its a payment plan. Same way they have rent to own furniture and whatever else. Its a play on words for a concept that is basically just you rent it until you own its and if you fail to pay it all off, you don't get your money back. What you get is decided and finite, and you can pay it off within a reasonable time. To call it a subscription is just trying to make it sound better because payment plans sound like people are too poor to afford what they buy and that had a major negative image over time. The value of a payment plan/rent-to-own vs. a real modern subscription is totally different.


this was a good clarification, now you are calling me poor...


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## JEPA (Jul 20, 2019)

In my land we have a "saying": "I am poor but honest"


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 20, 2019)

JEPA said:


> this was a good clarification, now you are calling me poor...




That was not the intent, what I'm saying is that's why they call it a subscription instead of payment plan or rent to own nowadays. Because the business model of rent-to-own and payment plans in other businesses gained such a negative image that it acquired this image of only being something poor people with bad financial skills did. I DO NOT mean to say that represents you or other people on such plans. They serve a useful function for people, but they are not subscriptions, which are uninterrupted services that remain for the time in which you are in them, and cease when you stop. 

People have said they would feel trapped by subscription plans, but rent-to-own programs are designed to make it harder for you to quit. Knowing the bundle is $1000, and that you're paying into it with the benefit of eventually owning, you're far less likely to stop because it feels like throwing money away. So people stay on the plan until its fully paid off. Subscription is generally meant to not come with that burden. You use it for as long as you choose to, and you quit knowing you paid for access only.


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## JEPA (Jul 20, 2019)

chocobitz825 said:


> That was not the intent, what I'm saying is that's why they call it a subscription instead of payment plan or rent to own nowadays. Because the business model of rent-to-own and payment plans in other businesses gained such a negative image that it acquired this image of only being something poor people with bad financial skills did. I DO NOT mean to say that represents you or other people on such plans. They serve a useful function for people, but they are not subscriptions, which are uninterrupted services that remain for the time in which you are in them, and cease when you stop.
> 
> People have said they would feel trapped by subscription plans, but rent-to-own programs are designed to make it harder for you to quit. Knowing the bundle is $1000, and that you're paying into it with the benefit of eventually owning, you're far less likely to stop because it feels like throwing money away. So people stay on the plan until its fully paid off. Subscription is generally meant to not come with that burden. You use it for as long as you choose to, and you quit knowing you paid for access only.


I know it was not your intention, I'm only joking a little bit. Thank you for your clarification, it states clear the difference between these two paying plans and contributes a lot to this thread!


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## JEPA (Jul 20, 2019)

chocobitz825 said:


> and you quit knowing you paid for access only


this is interesting, paying for access only. I don't see myself paying for "access only" for plugins use, but maybe I would pay for access like information, Jstor scientific magazines (musicology), or something like forums for specific music related issues (ethnomusicology, programming, etc.). In my personal case I have to receive something in exchange and I see plugins like _objects_ more than information. Plugins for me are virtual objects like tools instead of e-books (pdf) or magazines where I can be subscribed (like a library where I can always go in and out, I know the books stay there). So with objects I could rent / lease a Mac Pro, but I prefer to buy it. If I had a huge basement (music school) maybe I would lease some Macs, but the difference is that it turns huge and impersonal. Like you have 100 students learning audio (and playing games  ) making use of the computers. But for my personal work I prefer to own the tools I need. That's personal, that is my case...


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## JEPA (Jul 20, 2019)

I understand that facilities like companies working for the music industry at top levels would use the subscription more like than buying licenses only for two or three computers. If you have a team of 15 or more composers working like Bleeding Fingers or Dynamedion or producing libraries like SpitfireAudio I could believe the best option is to be subscribed and have the software you need in different studios and rooms throughout the facility.


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 20, 2019)

JEPA said:


> I understand that facilities like companies working for the music industry at top levels would use the subscription more like than buying licenses only for two or three computers. If you have a team of 15 or more composers working like Bleeding Fingers or Dynamedion or producing libraries like SpitfireAudio I could believe the best option is to be subscribed and have the software you need in different studios and rooms throughout the facility.



I think thats the major distinction and both sides are valid. I’m not sayin everyone should be on the subscription model, because really it makes no sense for some users. The only problem I see is previous arguments about how it either traps users (despite still having the option to buy perpetual licenses), or that its some how more expensive than buying licenses. We all have different needs, and this model fulfills a need for many users, I think.


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## dzilizzi (Jul 20, 2019)

As a hobbyist, subscriptions rarely make sense. I do buy one to Groove3, but also buy classes I want to keep when they have sales. A subscription for a month or two to try out a product also makes sense. Otherwise, for me, no because I don't have consistent time to do music and I would be paying for stuff I'm not using. 

But for a business, it does make sense in that it can allow you to offer more services that you might not have been able to do if you had to pay full price for it. plus it is a set business expense as a subscription which makes it easier to price your product. And if you quit business, you don't have to worry about unresellable assets.


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## JEPA (Jul 20, 2019)

dzilizzi said:


> you don't have to worry about unresellable assets.


that's a very good point!


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## rrichard63 (Jul 30, 2019)

Forgive me if this has already been answered and I missed it. If you have a voucher for a discount on the subscription (I have one for $149.99), does the lower price apply to renewals after the first year or only to the first year?

This is the first time I have been tempted by the subscription model. But I added up my purchases from PA over the last 3-1/2 years and they have averaged $520 per year. At $150 a year, it seems that I could subscribe, evaluate everything when I feel like it rather than having to do so during a limited trial period, eventually buy the few I end up using frequently, and break even or come out slightly ahead.


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## ckeddf (Jul 30, 2019)

rrichard63 said:


> Forgive me if this has already been answered and I missed it. If you have a voucher for a discount on the subscription (I have one for $149.99), does the lower price apply to renewals after the first year or only to the first year?



The discounted price stays for renewals - as long as you keep your initial subscription active.


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## JEPA (Jul 30, 2019)

quickly question: Who has already subscribed? Y/N


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 30, 2019)

JEPA said:


> quickly question: Who has already subscribed? Y/N



Yes. With the quickness and a great discount.


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## JEPA (Jul 30, 2019)

from the newsletter:

"

Voucher Codes for MEGA Bundle yearly intro offers:
Extended until August 31
We heard from a lot of users that they loved the MEGA Bundle yearly "Deal of your lifetime" voucher codes for the early adaptors, but some of you just need some extra time to be prepared to subscribe. We are happy to announce that we have extended all the voucher codes for the MEGA Bundle yearly intro prices until August 31. Just use the codes you have already received, they will work through all of August."​

..so I am interested to see how this evolves... Maybe after thinking again about it and reading @rrichard63 statement, it makes sense...

Again,
quickly question: Who has already subscribed? Y/N


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 30, 2019)

I hate to junk up a topic with a redundant answer, but yes, I did subscribe, at $149, and will make sure it doesn't lapse so that I am locked into that discount.

It was also confirmed that our perpetual licenses remain valid.


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## WindcryMusic (Jul 30, 2019)

JEPA said:


> Again,
> quickly question: Who has already subscribed? Y/N



A firm "no" from me. I will never pay for a subscription to any software.

My main reason is that I want to go on using whatever plugins I have purchased after I retire (which isn't that far off). I'll be on a limited/fixed income at that point and not able to justify paying an ongoing subscription for something if I am not making money from it, but that doesn't mean I want to have the set of musical tools I've grown accustomed to taken away from me. The whole point of "retirement" for me is to be able to make as much music as I want, with the set of tools I've assembled over a lifetime.


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## Mark Schmieder (Jul 30, 2019)

I'm in the same boat. But once I found I could keep my perpetual licenses, I was in. If I can't afford the subscription once I retire, I'll just stick with the perpetual licenses, which cover a lot of ground already.


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## alanb (Jul 30, 2019)

rrichard63 said:


> Forgive me if this has already been answered and I missed it. If you have a voucher for a discount on the subscription (I have one for $149.99), does the lower price apply to renewals after the first year or only to the first year?




PA sent out an e-mail on July 19 entitled "MEGA Bundle Subscription Info & FAQs," which included the following Q/A:




*Q: *_Will the intro price be my price forever, or is it just valid for the 1st year after I sign up?_

*PA:* If you sign up using your voucher above you will get your special price for as long as you don't cancel.​






rrichard63 said:


> This is the first time I have been tempted by the subscription model. But I added up my purchases from PA over the last 3-1/2 years and they have averaged $520 per year. At $150 a year, it seems that I could subscribe, evaluate everything when I feel like it rather than having to do so during a limited trial period, eventually buy the few I end up using frequently, and break even or come out slightly ahead.



Yeah, unless you lose your job, or your rent triples, or you get hit by a bus, or discover that you have cancer or some other long-term medical condition that insurance doesn't quite cover, or any of a million other unexpected contingencies arise which kill your cashflow, and then suddenly you realize that you are not only able to afford your annual subscription renewals, but that you can no longer make full and proper use of _your own creations_ that were made with the plugins to which you are no longer licensed to use. 

This would be *doubly stupid* if reworking/revising/repurposing these personal creations, were you able to work them, would have been your path to financial recovery.....

*I love PA, and have nearly all of their plugins*_, but I wrote them to say that I'll drop them as fast as I dropped Adobe (hellooooooooooooooo, Blackmagicdesign!!)_ if they ever switch to a subscription-only model.

Maintaining both models without forcing a noticeable increase in the price points for permanent licenses (like EastWest currently seems to be doing) is fine . . .

. . . but *no one who has ever fallen on hard financial times* would in their right mind subject him- or herself to such a risk.

And anyone who has seriously considered that their personal creations won't be _entirely_ theirs anymore — and that they will lose exclusive control over the use and exploitation of 'their' personal creations, if subscription-based tools were used in the creation process — would recognize immediately the inherent foolishness of relinquishing the _perpetual_ right to use the tools that they find useful, and their creations that were made using those tools.....

Er . . . just sayin'................................


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 30, 2019)

alanb said:


> PA sent out an e-mail on July 19 entitled "MEGA Bundle Subscription Info & FAQs," which included the following Q/A:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Did daws remove the ability to bounce tracks?

Those are valid doomsday scenarios, but if your OS puts old plugins out of compatibility, you’re in the same boat. If your computer dies, same situation. If your drive fails, same situation. If you’re responsible about your business you’d take necessary precautions to protect yourself. A subscription comes with some risk, but if you’ve backed up your files, you’ll have those to re use and if you need to adjust the song you use the plugins you have.

I understand the reluctance, but I can’t foresee subscription being this make or break scenario. Your inability to apply a few reverb or compressors is suddenly the destruction of the whole track? You can’t substitute them with what you already have? You didn’t save any stems of the song?
This one song will suddenly be the ticket to curing your illness, getting your jobs back, and fixing your broken bones? It just seems like a pretty outrageous hypothetical situation. 

Whatever the situation is, we should be prepared for the worst. A subscription offers as much potential as it does risk, but that’s the same with every part of our business.


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## rrichard63 (Jul 31, 2019)

@alanb and @chocobitz825 both make valid points. For me, the bottom line is



chocobitz825 said:


> A subscription offers as much potential as it does risk, but that’s the same with every part of our business [or hobby].


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## JEPA (Jul 31, 2019)

@rrichard63 get me thinking of doing it, in a positive way. If you plan some aims / objectives in a year, to deliver some good music for specific targets, €149-€199 a year can't be wrong. If one thinks about these gigs are going to catapult your business further...


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 31, 2019)

JEPA said:


> @rrichard63 get me thinking of doing it, in a positive way. If you plan some aims / objectives in a year, to deliver some good music for specific targets, €149-€199 a year can't be wrong. If one thinks about these gigs are going to catapult your business further...



If I could state one major benefit. A lot of plugins you find on UAD are also available with Plugin Alliance, but with no need for physical hardware and DSP management.


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## dzilizzi (Jul 31, 2019)

chocobitz825 said:


> If I could state one major benefit. A lot of plugins you find on UAD are also available with Plugin Alliance, but with no need for physical hardware and DSP management.


Except I've got most of the ones I am interested in and, I think, all of the UA ones. Truthfully, my PA purchases are usually just because it will be somewhere between $4 and $20 dollars with the voucher. I rarely remember to use them.


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## alanb (Jul 31, 2019)

chocobitz825 said:


> Those are valid doomsday scenarios,



Look, I don't know you. Maybe you are too young to understand how your body/health will change in a few years, or decades, and how your job security could very easily evaporate with barely a moment's notice . . . Perhaps you and all who sail with you lead charmed lives and will never know what it's like to struggle financially, but I know WAY TOO MANY people for whom these scenarios are the facts of their daily lives, not bullshit 'doomsday scenarios'.




chocobitz825 said:


> but if your OS puts old plugins out of compatibility, you’re in the same boat.



That's only a Macpeople problem, right? Thankfully, I've never had to deal with that..... 




chocobitz825 said:


> If your computer dies, same situation. If your drive fails, same situation. If you’re responsible about your business you’d take necessary precautions to protect yourself. A subscription comes with some risk, but if you’ve backed up your files, you’ll have those to re use and if you need to adjust the song you use the plugins you have.



No, that's pretty appleses-to-orangesesy.

Sure, if you've bounced/printed every track to .wavs (or .aiffs or whathaveyou), then you'll (probably)* be able to make whatever use you can of the _bounced/printed track_ but your exploitation opportunities will be extremely limited vis-à-vis yourself/your original client (an ACID Pro-based remix, maybe?), and probably non-existent if the new project is for a different client.

And if your original client comes back, the day after your subscription lapses and asks for "just a little tweak, I don't like this one bit here," you'll be out of luck in addition to being out of cash.

And if a new client comes along and says "I want my guitar/drums/hand-cupped armpit/'Mal-de-l’air-bag horns' to sound just like that track you did for so-and-so last year," your backed-up files won't do much for ya.

And your point completely ignores the overarching-but-everpresent issues of ownership and control that should be the main focus of any subscription discussion

* [Just wait and see how subscription rules will become increasingly stringent and permissible usage scenarios will become fewer and more restricted, as more of the major devs switch to subscription-only models, and more customers allow themselves to become tethered to the whims and demands of the companies' bean-counters and counsel. Software devs behaving like telcos... GET WOKE — it could happen in _your lifetime_, people (cue tritone cluster on theremin quartet)].


_


chocobitz825 said:



Your inability to apply a few reverb or compressors is suddenly the destruction of the whole track?

Click to expand...


Sometimes, absolutely yes. _

Bonham's massive drum intro to When the Levee Breaks would never have become the eternal benchmark of rock drum heaviness that it is, were it not for that Binson Echorec (and, of course, Andy Johns' brilliant triangulation) (and, well... Bonham) (but the point stands).

And if you tried slapping some additional reverb or compression or delay to that recording (copyright infringement issues aside), it'd probably end up sounding like dreck.

Oh, and how some of the folks around here just loooooove libs with 'baked-in' reverb . . . 'cause it's so easy to add more reverb on top and have it sound great!!!  So you'll have to de-verb and un-compress the tracks (with what plugins?).

Anyway, that's not as important as the fact that you'll be stuck with a fixed track or group of stems from which you won't be able to squeeze out much in the way of new material.

And that's not as important as the slightly more abstract (but, I think, much more salient) point that you'll be relinquishing a life in which you own stuff and can control what happens to stuff, and trading it in for a life in which you don't own stuff and can't control what happens to stuff (other folks' stuff, and sometimes your own) anymore.

_


chocobitz825 said:



You can’t substitute them with what you already have?

Click to expand...

_
#1: It's rarely about what *I* can do . . . it's usually about what the client wants.

#2: You can't just "substitute" an effect on a printed track — you're stuck with what you have.

#3: sometimes the reason why I bought instrument/effect 'x' is precisely because of its unique characteristics.


_


chocobitz825 said:



This one song will suddenly be the ticket to curing your illness, getting your jobs back, and fixing your broken bones? It just seems like a pretty outrageous hypothetical situation.

Click to expand...


Now here's where you've got my position POWER-LEGATO-STRENGTH-wrong.

It's not about just one song. It's about each and every potential song that you'll no longer be able to create, or produce, or post-produce, because you've lost access to your toolset, or a large part of it.

It's also about your reduced (if not eliminated) ability to make changes to, or derivative works from, each and every song that you've ever done, in which landing "the right sound" came from finding the right setting on the right plugin . . . that you can no longer use.

And it's about losing control over a presumably-important part of your life. Which may not matter to you (it doesn't seem to for many, these days), but it damn well should. *I'm just looking out for you, man, srsly.......*

This subscription model crap first came to my attention with Microsoft Office. If your work involves any form of writing, and you suddenly lost your access to Word and could no longer print or edit and resave ANHYTHING YOU'VE EVER WRITTEN BEFORE, then you'd be 'well and truly fucked,' as we say back home.*

*(Can I use that word here? If not, can I substitute 'rogered', as they say in other folks' homes, thousands of miles away? There're probably not enough Blackadder fans around who know what it really means, so it might escape the bad-word censor list.....???)




chocobitz825 said:



Whatever the situation is, we should be prepared for the worst. A subscription offers as much potential as it does risk, but that’s the same with every part of our business.

Click to expand...


This is kind of, pretty much, the opposite of true.

The risk is far greater because, under a subscription model, you have no property rights in the tools of your trade (and/or your life) . . . and your legal rights in your own creations are limited compared to what they would be if you own all of your tools outright.

And even if you're certain-beyond-all-cavil that *you'd* never fall on such hard times that you'll have to stop paying for your subscription, you could still lose your right to use some of those tools because of a clash-of-the-titans licensing dispute. There is nothing outrageous or unbelievable bout that scenario. Ain't that right, Creative Cloud users? Or just plain folks who bought, er . . . LICENSED 1984 or Animal Farm for their Kindle, back in '09?_


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 31, 2019)

alanb said:


> Look, I don't know you. Maybe you are too young to understand how your body/health will change in a few years, or decades, and how your job security could very easily evaporate with barely a moment's notice . . . Perhaps you and all who sail with you lead charmed lives and will never know what it's like to struggle financially, but I know WAY TOO MANY people for whom these scenarios are the facts of their daily lives, not bullshit 'doomsday scenarios'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your situation still creates a lot of hyperbole without acknowledging the reality. Everyone here speaking out against the concept of subscriptions and not the reality of PA’s subscription model. You own every license you already bought. You can buy any product you like. If you like the subscription model and it works, and you want to keep using it while purchasing none of the plugins, you can. If you try it and find you only really use 20 of the plugins, you can still buy those plugins and get off of the subscription. In your scenario you make it sound as if you’ve lost the freedom to purchase. Hell I’ve been on slates subscription and recently concluded I don’t need it. So I’ll buy the few things I liked, and move on.

Yes, some people have shitty subscription models, office being one of them. adobe being another. So you go with another product and vote with your wallet. A right you’re free to express here as well, but at least be fair and acknowledge that PA’s subscription does not suddenly lock you out from owning products, or lock your out of products you already own.

There are countless ways in which life and business can fuck us all. I don’t dispute that. What I disagree with is this scenario in which you have it all or nothing at all. You risk loss to your plugins for numerous reasons all the time. Your system, your os, the developer no longer updating it, etc etc. that’s why at the very least you would want bounced stems so you have something of your original idea, whilst also keeping your project file so you can tweak it down the line. you have no guarantees that your projects will always be safe. Hell some daws drop compatibility for projects that are too old. So again, if you reach this cluster fuck situation, subscriptions are not the only thing that might ruin your day. Some foresight and preparation would at least help ease some of that.

Also stop acting like us whippersnappers are messing up the business for everyone. I’m from a generation that has a hard time getting into the game. We’re lucky if we even get to the point of being stuck in a situation of falling out of it. I’m lucky to be working. I wish I could say the same for my peers carrying crippling debt and a bum economy (music or otherwise). This model is a change that came about out of necessity and preference. Necessity for developers trying to control pirating, and maintain their operational and growth costs. This is change for a market that has grown with technology. It’s also a market that has to exist in a time when ownership is not for everyone precisely because of poor economic situations. This is a market where more people are freelance and small businesses trying to compete with media giants. You see subscriptions ruining business where others see it helping their business grow. Just like you know people who have had life changes that threaten their income, I know a bunch of people who wish they had access to better gear to help kickstart their creativity and businesses. We’re on different sides of the fence here, but I’m not calling you and those like you fools for wanting to opt out. Stop talking down to those of us who prefer this model.


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## JEPA (Aug 1, 2019)

chocobitz825 said:


> Your situation still creates a lot of hyperbole without acknowledging the reality. Everyone here speaking out against the concept of subscriptions and not the reality of PA’s subscription model. You own every license you already bought. You can buy any product you like. If you like the subscription model and it works, and you want to keep using it while purchasing none of the plugins, you can. If you try it and find you only really use 20 of the plugins, you can still buy those plugins and get off of the subscription. In your scenario you make it sound as if you’ve lost the freedom to purchase. Hell I’ve been on slates subscription and recently concluded I don’t need it. So I’ll buy the few things I liked, and move on.
> 
> Yes, some people have shitty subscription models, office being one of them. adobe being another. So you go with another product and vote with your wallet. A right you’re free to express here as well, but at least be fair and acknowledge that PA’s subscription does not suddenly lock you out from owning products, or lock your out of products you already own.
> 
> ...


Although my natural instinct and nature don't want subscriptions but a sense of control and ownership, you've made very good points here in the argumentation. I can understand for example the NEED of a system for developers to control piracy, subscription shines to be actually the better one. That's maybe why Adobe got this system too. The only complaint I see in subscription models is the lac of ownership possibilities if it is the case and the abuse procedures of some companies. I like rent to own, but now with this PA offer I could imagine (I own some of their plugins) to pay 1 year subscription and see how it evolves during the year, if I could inject some improvement into my business. I am producing frequently, so I could see here a good opportunity, but it itches to know if one stops to subscribe, what happens to the projects? I would subscribe 1 year and paying attention to buy some more PA plugins if they still go low on BF and sales... thinking, thinking


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## chocobitz825 (Aug 1, 2019)

JEPA said:


> Although my natural instinct and nature don't want subscriptions but a sense of control and ownership, you've made very good points here in the argumentation. I can understand for example the NEED of a system for developers to control piracy, subscription shines to be actually the better one. That's maybe why Adobe got this system too. The only complaint I see in subscription models is the lac of ownership possibilities if it is the case and the abuse procedures of some companies. I like rent to own, but now with this PA offer I could imagine (I own some of their plugins) to pay 1 year subscription and see how it evolves during the year, if I could inject some improvement into my business. I am producing frequently, so I could see here a good opportunity, but it itches to know if one stops to subscribe, what happens to the projects? I would subscribe 1 year and paying attention to buy some more PA plugins if they still go low on BF and sales... thinking, thinking



It’s a completely legitimate concern to wonder what happens to projects you’ve done over the year. Is it likely that you’d throw in 1 of each of the 100+ plugins into your projects, or is it more likely that by the time you end your subscription you know mostly what you’ve used and buy or replace those (with maybe a few surprises where you used something only a handful of times). Either way, while it does take work to come off of a subscription, all of these things can more or less be replicated, short of some of the more unique modulation plugins.

In my very real experience right now, I just stopped my east west subscription and freed up like 2TB from my drive by deleting all the libraries. Even the ones I own. (They’re all backed up on the drive east west sent me anyway) some of my old unused projects have east west layered in, and I’ll have to replace them, but the reason I ended the subscription was that I really almost never use their libraries so the number of projects impacted is also small. I’ll have the same issue if I end slate because many projects used their tape machine, so I’ll likely buy the tape machine to save trouble...apparently, I like it enough to put it in multiple projects.

I admit there is no painless solution and indeed if they take the productivity application model of totally locking you out of accessibility to their products without a subscription we’ll have a different conversation that can likely be solved by a mass exodus from their service. For now, if your budget allows, consider giving it a try. You might be surprised.

While it might sound like my experience with east west and slate were failures, I feel I got my money’s worth. There’s no question in my mind about their services. I know I might buy pop brass from east west because I liked it before I ended my subscription, but I hate the PLAY engine. slates plugins are really good, but just not my go-to. They recently added kilohearts and ANA 2 which I REALLY LIKE, so I know I’m buying those.
I got to really dig in and see what I liked and didn’t like, and got to do more than 14-day trial. I lived with the service for about a year and came to some solid conclusions. Worth it to me.


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## rrichard63 (Aug 2, 2019)

alanb said:


> #2: You can't just "substitute" an effect on a printed track — you're stuck with what you have.


You can if you saved both the raw tracks and the effected ones with your project.


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## Henu (Aug 2, 2019)

alanb said:


> A lot of worst possible scenarios.



Many things in your post are technically implying that we cannot reproduce the mix again if we'd need to do it without certain plugins. While this holds true for the more obscure enhancers/ modulator plugins, most of the stuff we do in the mix can be reproduced to the the extent _where the client doesn't really notice any difference._ Which is what we aim for anyway.

Concerning PA: If I loose my Bx_Townhouse compressor, I'm pretty sure that e.g. Slate's FG-Grey can be used instead, or I can dial up some low end from another EQ than Dangerous as long as I just get the curves about right. Sure, it's annoying and takes some time. And it's up to you to judge should that be done for compensation or for free. If I decide to update half of my plugins or cancel that subscription as soon as I have sent the last files to the client, the joke's on me on that one.

The more time goes between the first "final" delivery and the rework, the more reasonable it is to ask for a compensation and most of all- the more reasonable it is to understand that we're not going to be able to get that 2 year old project open with the exactly same setup again without any errors about missing plugins. We update, change and modify a lot of our workflow (starting from upgrading a DAW version) during the years and it would be sheer madness to think that the backup we make will actually open up just like it opened in 2016 when we did the backup- unless we're gonna keep all plugin versions installed on our DAWs since that 2016....which is, to put it mildly, asking for some serious trouble.


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## JEPA (Aug 2, 2019)

Interesting discussion. I would put a little grain of salt:

How old are your latest oldest opened project? Did it stand to the actual DAW & plugins?

My answer: I lately opened a project from 2015-2016, it was in ProTools, which I don't own any more (the studio owned it), I had to open it into Mixbus v4 (it has a beta for Protools projects) and I could remix newly this song on Logic! I have also projects in Cubase from 2012.... ehem...


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