# Help! My client wants my Cubase project files...



## DeOlivier (Jun 10, 2008)

I'm working on the soundtrack for a MMORPG at the moment. Lately, the collaboration with the company I'm doing the music for isn't flowing as smoothly as I would wish - they're rejecting a lot of cues and requesting a lot of changes and rework. Basically that's ok for me - I've been hired to deliver what they want after all.

Anyway, yesterday the company's sound designer (who is my main contact person and always seemed to like my approach better than what his boss requested; I have to add that he also holds a degree in composition and that collaboration with him has always been pleasant and constructive) asked me if I could send him my Cubase source projects, so that he could open them and be able to show me which changes his boss desires. He is even willing to buy sample libraries to do that (he already has some of the libraries I am using). I'm not exactly enthusiastic about this idea. While I certainly want to meet their guidelines as close as possible, I clearly prefer to come up with my own ideas of how to achieve that. I pay very close attention to even the smallest details in my work, and I don't feel comfortable at the thought of somebody messing around with my projects.

On the other hand, I don't want to risk losing that job - it could be a solid addition to my resume, and it's also something that I really enjoy working on.

How would you handle such a situation in a professional manner?

-Oliver


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## Christian Marcussen (Jun 10, 2008)

Tough one.

I understand 100% why that would concern you. I think you should give the sounddesigner a call and try explain him that this is a drastic and unneccesary step, and that you can try find a compromise. For instance he can try "compose" what he has in mind, or perhaps take the time to explain it in even further detail. Another option would be to have them find some temp score which conveys what they have in mind. Then hope that the above is enough to convince him that you can work around it. If not... well, we will cross that bridge then


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## Waywyn (Jun 10, 2008)

I think Christian said it all.

There is no need for sending him the project files. He could just sit down with his boss and talk about certain instrument groups, chords or melodies he would like to have changed.

If he specifially asks your boss, WHY he doesn't like e.g. the first 16 bars of your track x .. he might give him a few more detailed answers. Sometimes it is hard to talk about music, but if someone is actually there with your boss and they talk about edits and he sends that info back to you, you can easily analyze his problems he had with your tracks.

eg:

okay, he doesn't like the deep trombones at that track. That's what soundede "farty" for him

okay, he doesn't like the piccolo flute on that spot since it sounded as a triller whistle

(just a few studpid examples )


So, no need to send him the files, the sounddesigner could easily sit down with a piano or a lib he already own and discuss sounds or melodies by playing over your stereo bounced file.


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## Trev Parks (Jun 10, 2008)

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## nikolas (Jun 10, 2008)

I'm naive to no end! Hello I'm Nikolas. I think you must know I'm silly to this kind of thing and I trust human nature!

Also I've never had any trouble with anyone before really. And I'm quite nice really... I drink my beer slow, etc...

Point?

I've never had to share any Cubase project file. I have 1 Cubase project in the web, my website, for educational reasons, to those who want to see a project made with EWQL products. End of story, completely different story really!

In your case Oliver, I would be rather annoyed and selfish issues would kick in. I would, very well, think that I'm not a child who needs that kind of guidance and that they did hire me already, so they are either stupid to do so and have doubts now, or they should shut up and trust you a bit more. Giving the Cubase projects seems to show a complete lack of trust!

Aside the above, which is my reasoning to a non existant happening in my life, yet (which may very well happen in the future, no idea), there are certain things to think about.

Usually people, provide arguments. In this case the sound designer (which btw, is rather different than a composer, I don't see the point in YOU being the composer and him taking the lead, unless his role is "head composer", or "head audio something"... in which case I should stop), wants to provide you feedback to what his boss wants, and help you out:

SIMPLE:

a. Talk to the boss and have him give you STRAIGHT answers and replies and feedback to what he wants.
b. If it's the sound designer that is in charge, do the same with him.

Exchanging project files seems almost reduntant to me, even for the best of wills really! There's no need for that. And a sound designer with a degree in composition should be able really to tell you without a score or even worst a project file, what's going on and what's wrong. 

In short: Something seems a little bit wrong. And if there's nothing wrong, it still feels insulting somehow. 

I'm sorry to sound like this...


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## Bruce Richardson (Jun 10, 2008)

I have to agree. This is a very unusual request.

I would probably approach them with the attitude that I am extremely uncomfortable with this request, and is there any other way we can find to have a meaningful dialogue?

That type of intervention on the part of a client would make me, personally, feel very out of control and micro-managed.

B.


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## Scott Cairns (Jun 10, 2008)

DeOlivier @ Tue Jun 10 said:


> Anyway, yesterday the company's sound designer...asked me if I could send him my Cubase source projects, *so that he could open them and be able to show me which changes his boss desires. *



Olivier, sorry, but thats the lamest excuse Ive ever heard. You said the sound designer has a degree in comp - plus youre a composer, so why cant the sound designer talk to you musically?

Since he specifically said; "show me which changes his boss desires" it implies that he knows what his boss wants. I would've thought the biggest challenge would be interpreting the wishes of a non-musical person. Since the sound-designer knows what his boss wants - he can talk to you on a purely musical level about the changes required.

Asking for the project file is utter bollocks in my opinion. Kind of like asking the photographer for the negatives and photoshopping it yourself.


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## Ethos (Jun 10, 2008)

I would either bounce everything to audio to send him audio tracks (no midi) (and charge them for your time doing this). Or charge them extra for submitting your proprietary source material. 

You were hired to deliver a final product, not the materials for them to do it themselves. That's a whole different contract in my opinion.


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## Will Loconto (Jun 10, 2008)

I'd imagine that delivering the project files wouldn't fall under the scope of your contract. I'd charge quite a bit extra if they were requesting I deliver them, if I'd even agree to it at all.

I'd tell them something like this: While I understand that you do need specific changes, I am very uncomfortable with the idea that my sequences might be changed while I am not present.

Losing that much control over what your music sounds like isn't a good thing at all in my opinion. It's already bad enough when you have to deliver stems so they can mix it themselves.


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## JohnG (Jun 10, 2008)

I would not do this. 

I would fear that the company is going to take what you have done and have someone in-house revise it. I don't see another persuasive explanation.


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## Thonex (Jun 10, 2008)

If they want to micro manage you, then they can come to your studio and sit BEHIND you. Period. Make them feel welcome.. and let them know you value their input. My guess is after 4 hours of sitting there, they'll just say.. "well... you get the idea... " and then leave you alone.

If they are requesting you to "buy sound libraries" above and beyond what was originally agreed upon, then that can be (and should be) added as a line item to your invoice. -- unless could really use this on other projects and you want to cut them a break.

This is sounding very "amateur-ish" on their end... but the client it "always right".... to a point.

But I would not send them the Cubase files. Send them stems instead... if they REALLY need something.

My 2 cents.

T


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## midphase (Jun 10, 2008)

"Asking for the project file is utter bollocks in my opinion. Kind of like asking the photographer for the negatives and photoshopping it yourself."

Scott said it well...but I think I have a better analogy......tell them this:

"Asking for my Cubase files is the equivalent of someone asking for the code to your game."

That should get their attention.

The main reason why someone would want access to your files is if they're thinking of replacing you, and the "other" composer wants to take a look at what you've been doing so that he wouldn't have to start completely from scratch. In the long time that I've been composing, I've never been asked for my sequencer files (however on my last project, for some weird reason, they asked for Sibelius files....which are useless to them anyway since the score was ambience/electronic, plus by then the project was completed).


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## Christian Marcussen (Jun 10, 2008)

I doubt Midphase's bleak scenario - that they are looking to replace you. But it goes without saying that they intend for their sounddesigner to improve upoò_¨   {ÔÌ


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## DeOlivier (Jun 10, 2008)

josejherring @ Tue Jun 10 said:


> I agree with T. Sounds like they just want to be involved in the creative processes. Right now the only way they can do that is to ask for 1000 changes.
> 
> Personally I would just put everything on a laptop and head over there. Sit down with the soundesigner and just start composing in front of him.
> 
> ...



Yeah, this would be a great way to do it. Unfortunately I'm in Vienna, Austria and my client is in Louisiana... 

Thanks for all the helpful responses so far! I also tend to think that they're not intending to hire someone else, but I still feel uncomfortable about giving away so much control over my work. I'm not completely sure about that, but I think it was the sound designer's idea to exchange project files just to make communication easier. I think I'll try to express my concerns and find a different solution.


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## kid-surf (Jun 10, 2008)

Someone recently gave me some good advice about stupid ideas.

"Kill it in the room"

In other words, kill bad ideas in the room before they get any traction with it, by that time it's too late, they'll push forward, regardless. At that point you're in an ego battle, even if they've figure out how bad the idea truly is.

I would be really offended if someone asked for my sequencer files. Clearly they don't "trust" you. I'd ask them why they hired me if they don't trust me. That sit is totally crossing the line IMO. 

Kill this dumb idea in the room... Is this really a relationship you want to foster should you give in to illogical demands. It'll only get more absurd next gig.

I like Kays idea about asking for their code. Then again, I have a sick sense of humor.


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## Brian Ralston (Jun 10, 2008)

I will put it in the context of my always referring to the composer on a film as the music department head. Because in reality...while there is a boss above you...for the *music* on this project...you are the one hired to be in charge. And more specifically, you are the music department head hired to solve the music problems. Not the sound designer. So...it really is your problem to solve, of course by taking in the feedback from the people you directly answer to on the gig. 

Another individual (i.e. 'department head') on the project asking for your project files to solve your problems (the ones you were specifically hired to provide solutions for) is akin to making costume suggestions to the wardrobe department or editing suggestions to the editor on a film to help a film get better. Cause...we are all on the same team right? It is all for the better of the film/game/project...right? :roll: 

It is out of line for them and really a bad move for you to go along with it.

The music problems are yours and yours alone to solve. You are the chef in this kitchen and you have to know who you are cooking for and communicate with that person. Don't let another individual on the project try to take away your responsibilities on the game. 

And just know that at the end of the day if they fire you for not allowing you to do the job they hired you to do (even though you were doing everything possible to communicate and try to solve the music problems at hand)...that is more a comment on them and not on you as a composer.


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## Jaap (Jun 10, 2008)

I think it is a two side story and you should consider a few things. I personally would not see anything wrong in sending the files.

If I was ask to be the composer and I am working on a project it is my duty to do the job ok. Of course a lot things can happen and cues can be rejected. I think they are searching to solve this in the shortest way as possible and if you have a sound designer who knows the drills of composing I think it is good to share the scores. Afterall you are working on a project with a team and they offer a solution to solve it within the team. This is not about an ego who has to do everything on its own, making a game is working together on the same goal and if you have someone around who understands what needs to be done (and I know he does, since I know who the sound designer is), then I think this could be a good way to work. For me it is the same of showing an actual score and sit together with a red pencil and correct things.

I think I would offer them a cubase file, work it out together and see how it goes, if the solution is not satisfying for you then you can always reject to continue in this way.


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## JohnG (Jun 10, 2008)

Jaap @ 10th June 2008 said:


> For me it is the same of showing an actual score and sit together with a red pencil and correct things.



I see I am in the minority here but I totally disagree with this advice. I don't think it is anything like the red pencil. It is like having someone else take over your project, make a few changes, take credit for "saving" you and leave you with a badly damaged reputation.

I would never submit to this.


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## nikolas (Jun 10, 2008)

If they are paying them for his services, what on earth where they thinking for hiring him in the first place, if they are to double check every single move and put a "teacher" above to correct him? It's completely absurd! 

And I wouldn't submit to that either. Not even scores actually. (which would result in much more work for me to produce a reasonable quality score, from Cubase). 

I'm 100% with John on this!


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## Patrick de Caumette (Jun 10, 2008)

Like most people here I wouldn't give anyone my files.

Another thing: don't be so sure that the sound designer is a nice guy.
He may be cool with you but who knows what he is conveying to the head of the studio when you are not there?
Since he has a degree in composition, he probably thinks that he could do a better job than you and may be talking you down.

Like someone said above, try to get directly to the boss or get a conference call going (you, the SD, the boss) where the sound designer can translate the boss ideas into musical terms (but you should be able to do that yourself).
Music references are always a life saver in those cases...

Good luck!


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## artsoundz (Jun 10, 2008)

Never give up your files. This sounds very fishy.....


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## cc64 (Jun 10, 2008)

Did you receive any payment from them yet? You know the usual 1/3 to start the project..? If not maybe now would be a good time to test the water and ask for it...It might clarify some things...

Sorry for being blunt in my questioning but you're a very talented musician and i'm sure that you are just like a lot of us very passionate about your craft and very eager to please but i think you have to put your business hat before continuing further.

I hope i'm wrong but i checked your website enjoyed your music, read about the current project you're working on and remembered the name of the company from a job posting on another forum. I had checked their website at the time and found it awkward that a video game company had such a cheesy(i say cheesy because i'm not sure you can say crappy on a forum) website, jeez yours looks tons better and your a musician. Also recall that your Sound designer friend had generated quite a stir on the aforementioned forum... :idea: 

Mut! o-[][]-o 

cc64


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 10, 2008)

Oliver, to me the answer is inherent in the fact that you posted the question. You're not comfortable giving them the files, and rightly so, therefore you don't give them the files. I like Kays' choice of words the best.

My other reaction is that if they're rejecting every cue, maybe you could send them a piano sketch or something sparse to "collaborate" all over. They should be less inclined to ask for rewrites of something they "wrote" for you.


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## Jaap (Jun 10, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jun 11 said:


> Oliver, to me the answer is inherent in the fact that you posted the question. You're not comfortable giving them the files, and rightly so, therefore you don't give them the files.



I personally don't see anything wrong yet in handing out the files, but I think Nick's advice is really good. If you don't have a good feeling with it (for whatever reason) then do not do it straight away.

Tell them that you have doubts, tell them what is on your mind and why you don't like it and see if there are other ways to get those issues with the cues solved. In any case before giving something I would definately put some things on paper (in a contract way I mean) before you hand things over.


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## DeOlivier (Jun 11, 2008)

That's excellent advice, thanks a lot! I will talk to him today, address my concern and try to find a different solution. If we really come to the conclusion that sending source files would be a helpful option in the creative process, I'll set up some kind of contract that limits use of these files to the demonstration of desired changes in the score.


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## Hannes_F (Jun 11, 2008)

Sending a sequencer file is a big difference to sending a score IMO.

The score is like an architect's plan of the music, and as such it is easy to protect via copyright. But in the cc's of the sequencer file there is a lot of _interpretation_, _handcraft _and _taste _... hours and hours of work per output minute, and once given away it is difficult to protect it.

Say you make a realistically sounding string bed. Anybody here knows that in such a case the note choice is a minor contribution compared to the rendition itself. What if somebody takes the midi file, shoves some notes up or down in the piano roll and uses your work for his own? Alone the request would offend me.

Another situation you might run into: What if your midi file does not sound on their system like on yours? Because you have "your tricks to make it work"? You would have to give them consulting about sequencer setup, your custom patches of the libraries, your effects, your use of scripts, MOL, FXteleport etc.. They would need all the knowledge that normally take one or two years to learn for a media composer ... and get it all delivered for free?

Argh.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 11, 2008)

I agree with most people that this is a ridiculous request. You know, if he REALLY wants to get into your kitchen, you could always send him a couple of Cubase files where every note gets its own track, or where every track is quintupled with variations that are muted on separate tracks. Make it real confusing. If asked why, tell him that's the way you like to work.


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## Jaap (Jun 11, 2008)

It is fascinating to see these different opinions (and that is good for you Olivier, since you have a lot of different inputs to think about).

The reason why I am fascinated is why are people scared to share it if you work for a company on a project? I fully agree with the fact that is normal to first try it to communicate in a musical way without showing the scores etc, but if that for some reason is not working and you are working with a team on a product, isn't it logic that you share your files? For example: is it different for a 3D artist to share his 3D studio max files so the lead or the one that is judging the work can see where it goes wrong in a technical way?

Maybe I am a bit naive in this way haha, but when I am working on a project my concern is to work together on making it work. If I do something wrong for some reason and I tried to discuss it and it fails to find a good way to work it out (due to whatever reason) I think I would have personally no problem in sending my files since in my opinion that is part of the work as well and belongs to the greater goal.

Ofcourse I would be carefull to protect the origin of the ideas and that they don't walk away with my work and "sound", but I think as professionals you can sort that out.


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## Waywyn (Jun 11, 2008)

Just one thought:

Did you also have phone conversation with the company or just emails?
Email or messanging is common but sometimes a phone call or a real meeting can open hundreds of doors. Now I would like to ask the other way round. Why this all happened? I think the main problem is not that the sounddesigner wants your files. The main problem is still that your stuff gets rejected by the company.

Now, why does this happen? Did you ever ask the boss to send you temp tracks? Soundalikes? If a company has such specific and detailed imaginations it is always the best to ask for reference or temp tracks. Please do the rhythm as in track x bei Zimmer, please do orchestration as heard in track y by Silvestri etc.

Please don't be offended and you only have to answer this to yourself, but I think there is a major conversation conflict going on. The main problem should be solved! I know I answered before in this thread, but if I think about this more and more, I would completely ignore that Cubase session request and simply erase it from my mind.

All I would do is to find a good way to work together.

Of course, I don't know what kind of contact you guys have. If you phone or just send mails. If there were just words to describe what they want or did you get temp tracks. Did you also get alpha or beta releases of the game? Pics, videos, scripts?

When I did the game "HCA - the ugly prince duckling" I was already living in Hamburg, but the developer was in Denmark, Copenhagen, so it was really only 300 km. Of course this is a bit closer than Lousiana and Vienna ) ... but it was worth so much. I had such a nice meeting with the developer and it was worth all the way to drive up there


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## Will Loconto (Jun 11, 2008)

Jaap @ Wed Jun 11 said:


> The reason why I am fascinated is why are people scared to share it if you work for a company on a project?



In my case, it's not being scared to share the files, but rather questioning the process and desired resolution of the situation.

While making sure the client is satisfied with our music is the ultimate goal, being heavily micro-managed is not a pleasant experience. Offering up the project files opens a can of worms that I personally wouldn't like to have opened and could lead to more problems instead of less.

If a producer at a company has the knowledge to understand a Cubase file, then he certainly has the knowledge to tell me "we don't like the horns coming in at 1:14," or to provide example tracks that are closer to what they want.

I just think there are plenty of better ways to resolve the situation properly without putting the source files into their hands.


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## RiffWraith (Jun 11, 2008)

Some excellent advice ^

This is what you do:

I am not sure how good your "debating" (for lack of a better word) skills are, but when you talk to him, either on the phone or via email, you want to get him to say that he only wants to see what you are doing/how you are doing it and that he wishes to monitor your progress. That is what you want him to say. If he says, "we want to work on your Cubase files to make the music better" then all bets are off, and you should walk away, as this is a tell-tale sign that 1) you are going to get screwed, 2) your music is going to get rearranged/rewritten by him or someone else, or 3) you are going to get screwed.

*Again, you want to get him to say that he only wants to see what you are doing/how you are doing it and that he wishes to monitor your progress. *

Then, you send him screenshots. You load up Cubase, hit the print screen key, save as jpg files, and send those to him. There is no way he is going to be able to "steal" anything that way. And now, he gets to see how you work. :idea: 

I am working on a tentative game still in dev. One of the dev guys sends me an email and says, "I'd like to see what you are doing and how you create your music". I sent him a couple of screenshots. He comes back the next day - "wow! I wasn't aware that there was so much involved". And that was it.

Good luck.


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## Waywyn (Jun 11, 2008)

That may be a cool choice, but please take into consideration: Don't even mention the point anymore. Simply ignore it! Let them know that this was the most stupid thing to ask. Just call them, discuss further solutions, let them get you temp and reference tracks and stick to the examples.

Again, when working on such projects were people have such a narrow imagination of what they want it is the best to let them know to send examples and then work that out. Don't be a composer and let your ideas spill. Simply be a bitch and bend over as they want - finish that job and claim the money.

... and of course, best would be if you receive an email or a call in a few months because they want to hire you again for the next job.


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## Jaap (Jun 11, 2008)

Will Loconto @ Wed Jun 11 said:


> Jaap @ Wed Jun 11 said:
> 
> 
> > The reason why I am fascinated is why are people scared to share it if you work for a company on a project?
> ...



That is very true Will and I definately agree with you on that. Communications is the most important part and it definately needs to be sought first in that direction and that this sort of things should only be done (if it needs to be done at all, but it is good to question it and think about and I guess it differs also per project) if there is absolutely no way out. 

I think it is good to think about how far you need and are willing to go to make something work. I never have been in such experience and I hope I never will 

+1 for the advice from Alex btw.


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## Scott Cairns (Jun 11, 2008)

Thonex @ Thu Jun 12 said:


> This may be a totally innocent request, but it is HIGHLY unusual and really begs the question of how professional these people are, how much experience do they have...



Thats exactly right. The only similar experience Ive had to this was with a start up game developer - who doesnt exist anymore. 8)


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## Christian Marcussen (Jun 11, 2008)

> Get them to agree on a pre-existing temp track. This way you are not writing until the cows come home. Get them to commit to temp music they like... and then "ripp off" the temp tracks. This way there is no debate on what they are going for.



You would be suprised :D


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## Bruce Richardson (Jun 11, 2008)

I have thought about this some since my last post.

I still can't come up with a single reason to ask you for your sequencer files. There simply is not one.

What would they gain? If there are specific enough criticisms that they can correct the problem with your sequencer file, then these criticisms are specific enough to communicate the same ideas to you.

I think there is only one reason to ask for your Cubase files: To allow their staff sound-designer/composer to meddle with the music, and do an in-house job.

This is simply an improper request. Ask yourself if Hans Zimmer would hand over his MIDI files. Case closed.


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## Blackster (Jun 12, 2008)

DeOlivier @ Thu Jun 12 said:


> Since the sound designer I was talking about was watching this thread, the problem has been sorted out in the meanwhile...



Nice ending of this story  ... I was just a reader of this thread .... but before you ask: no, I'm not that sound-guy  

But I'm happy this issue is solved and things worked out for you.


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## Waywyn (Jun 12, 2008)

Blackster @ Thu Jun 12 said:


> DeOlivier @ Thu Jun 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Since the sound designer I was talking about was watching this thread, the problem has been sorted out in the meanwhile...
> ...



Yeh, would be pretty weird to have a german guy living in Munich, actually working in Lousinana a few times a week


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## nikolas (Jun 12, 2008)

Waywyn @ Thu Jun 12 said:


> Blackster @ Thu Jun 12 said:
> 
> 
> > DeOlivier @ Thu Jun 12 said:
> ...


Unless he is lying about his location and he's using this nickname and comment to through dust in our eyes!

Huh?


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## Blackster (Jun 12, 2008)

nikolas @ Thu Jun 12 said:


> Waywyn @ Thu Jun 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Blackster @ Thu Jun 12 said:
> ...



Damn! How do you know all that!? :shock: 

:D


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## nikolas (Jun 12, 2008)

Blackster @ Thu Jun 12 said:


> nikolas @ Thu Jun 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Waywyn @ Thu Jun 12 said:
> ...


Just like multiple quotes... that's all!


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## midphase (Jun 12, 2008)

We're all assuming that there's been a good resolution to this (thanks to us), but one way that they might have "sorted out" the problem is by firing Oliver! ;-}


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## VFXS Sound Designer (Jun 12, 2008)

I just wanted to get on here and respond to the comments about me asking for the Cubase files. 

As me and Oliver discussed the tracks it became a bit difficult to get the exact idea across that my boss was looking for. I didn't jump right to asking for cubase files, but instead tried a number of other methods to get the project back on track. When asking for the cubase files I was merely going to add in comments directly into the tracks. This way I could be more specific about the parts I was talking about. I would also suggest changes within the project file, but not actually do any changes. My goal was not to rewrite the music in any way. We hired Oliver because of his tremendous overall skill set, and therefore we trust his judgement on writing / rendering the music. 

Overall the biggest hurdle is pleasing my boss. He has very specific tastes for what he likes, which don't necessarily coincide with what Oliver and I think. If it were solely up to me there would be very few changes to Oliver's work, but in the end I am working for someone else and he has the final say. 

I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding in regards to me having a composition degree. I do not have a degree in composition, but instead a degree in Music Engineering. Of course the concentration is on Engineering in that degree and not composition. This is why I am a sound designer, not a composer. I do have however have composition education, as well as composing experience. I have had many pieces played at Festivals across the country. I by no means try and pass myself off as a composer though. My main passion is sound design, and engineering. The composing I do nowadays is purely recreational. I hope this clears the air about me and my position at our studio. 

Overall I think this got blown a bit out of proportion. Oliver is in good standing with the studio. In my eyes this was just a minor hiccup in our work flow.


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## Thonex (Jun 12, 2008)

VFXS Sound Designer @ Thu Jun 12 said:


> Overall I think this got blown a bit out of proportion. Oliver is in good standing with the studio. In my eyes this was just a minor hiccup in our work flow.



Thanks for clearing this up... and for having the fortitude to enter the lion's den :wink: 

Cheers,

T


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## kid-surf (Jun 12, 2008)

I love a happy ending... except in shitty scripts w/a weak plot. Which this story still has, for me.


Glad Oliver didn't get fired.

VFXS Sound Designer -- You come away from this having learned a bit about what composers REALLY think. Insight is invaluable to communication. Will only help your communication skills in the future.

If your boss happens to read this -- I'd say the same to him. If there were more honesty in this industry we'd all be WASTING a lot less time, and MAKING MORE MONEY. Ain't that what this is all about... it sure is hell isn't about art. So let's cut the crap and make billions! 

Perhaps the BOSS could figure out what the heck he's trying to convey, then, convey it. I have no sympathy for inarticulate "directors" -- Know your vision and convey it. Don't expect those working for you to anticipate what you can't articulate... or worse... don't yet know yourself but feign "vision". An effective BOSS is able to clearly express what they want w/o a divergent gobetween.

BTW -- VFXS, your knowing a bit about composing tells me you could very simply have made timecode suggestions (i.e. "at XX:XX:XX:XX lose the horns", etc.). No need to dig around in a file. Time is money. Besides, that's still micro-managing... and offensive.


Not how I'd run my ship... to each his own.


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## VFXS Sound Designer (Jun 12, 2008)

Kid-Surf - 

Yes, I agree I wish I could be more articulate. In the end I am sure it would be easier if I was. This is no one's fault but my own. I am sure some of you agree though it is sometimes easier to show what you are trying to say by example. I am in a position though where I am trying to interpret things, like "needs more drums" or "heavier" or "darker" or my favorite "*MORE BADASS*". This is what is described by my boss. To a certain extent it is hard to blame him, as he has no musical background. In the end, I have learned that the challenge is not so much creating the music as it is being able to communicate and understand what is meant by the director.


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## nikolas (Jun 12, 2008)

VFXS Sound Designer @ Thu Jun 12 said:


> Overall I think this got blown a bit out of proportion. Oliver is in good standing with the studio. In my eyes this was just a minor hiccup in our work flow.


Glad to know that as well! 

And by all means, it was a bit of discussion and since there wasn't much of a debate (with none of your studio taking part actively), there's nothing out of proportion I think.  Things got discussed and that's all!

So no worries! 

And welcome to VI!


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## midphase (Jun 12, 2008)

"MORE BADASS"

This is interesting. If you told me that, I think I'd know exactly what you meant....but I know plenty of composers who really wouldn't know what to do or how to achieve that. I'm not saying that I'm better than anyone else (although I think it all the time), but that different people interpret things differently depending on their experience and even on their musical influences. 

There's a good friend of mine whom I know I could say "More Bad Ass" and I would still have to go back and forth about 10 times before I finally got what I was after, on the other hand, I have another good friend (who incidentally composes for videogames) whom I would only have to say it to once and he would nail it right away. I don't think you're at fault here or that you need to be more articulate...I think your conveying your ideas and directions clearly enough!

If words don't work...I'm still in the "temp score" camp when it comes to stuff like this. I think it's a lot easier to communicate to Oliver what you and your boss want if you just play him some mp3's of tracks that illustrate perfectly the sound that you guys need!


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## Waywyn (Jun 12, 2008)

Hey VFXS Sound Designer,

welcome aboard!!

To be really honest, but that "BADASS" what also Kays was talking about, and I am just guessing here, could be the point that the music wouldn't hit the bosses nerves.

I could be absolutely megatotally wrong though, but if a company tells me to really go more badass, ... I usually make sure and ask again "How much Badass?". (Of course it depends on the general mood and style).

But if I receive an answer with "Very Badass" ... or .... "Just go and sacrifice a virgin and put that blood in your music" most of the time I end up using double bass, drop tuned guitars and sick distorted virus arps. Even if there is nothing else than orchestra "allowed" I end up mixing it below the track (not on my own will, but just as a test discussed with the customer) so it is almost not there but gives the character. Most of the time the customers like it.

What I was trying to say (with absolutely no offense against DeOlivier or anyone else and with absolutely no clue what style this game needs and what it is all about ) that most of the time "the" composer thinks too symphonical. The instruments have to sound right, everythings needs to be panned accurate, no overcompression on the track in general, the melody needs to meet a certain "intellectual standard" and minor and pure minor is a no-go 

Again, my post wouldn't fit if the BOSS only wants realistic symphonic/pure orchestra music ... but I am just guessing here ...


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## kid-surf (Jun 12, 2008)

VFXS --

I'm saying it's the boss's fault, not yours. I'm saying the boss needs to articulate what he's after so you aren't wedged in the middle. Who's driving the ship? Know what I mean? 



> To a certain extent it is hard to blame him, as he has no musical background. In the end, I have learned that the challenge is not so much creating the music as it is being able to communicate and understand what is meant by the director.



I feel it's entirely the "Boss's" fault if they fail to communicate what they want. Vision has nothing to do with musical background. 

Having said that...

*"needs more drums" or "heavier" or "darker" or my favorite "MORE BADASS"*

That language is all pretty clear to me, and very musical. Plenty of easily translatable adjectives. "More Badass" is actually a great descriptive... instantly you know what he means, it's very specific, "on the nose". While the next question may be "How badass?", descriptions like that should be quickly met with a mutual understanding. (wink-wink to Olivier)

Still... no need to dig into his files. Yet, hearing this info, I'm surprised you guys aren't on the same page yet. I would bet it's imminent.


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## DeOlivier (Jun 14, 2008)

VFXS Sound Designer @ Thu Jun 12 said:


> In my eyes this was just a minor hiccup in our work flow.


Yes I agree. And by now I have the most extensive and elaborate collection of commented temp tracks I ever saw!

...and you're right: "badass" sounds pretty specific to me as well!


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## poseur (Jun 15, 2008)

post deleted, as useless.

d


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## Bruce Richardson (Jun 15, 2008)

I have decided that all of my work needs to be significantly more badass.

In all seriousness, though, that is a term I, too, can actually understand...and I agree that the next question is probably, "Where do you see the current version on a badass scale of 1-10, and how badass would you like it?"

Does it go to 11?

And how much badass @ 11 can you really put into one score? And what if someone comes along and throws down a 12? Then we're all fucking out of work. Shit.


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## Waywyn (Jun 16, 2008)

Bruce Richardson @ Sun Jun 15 said:


> I have decided that all of my work needs to be significantly more badass.
> 
> In all seriousness, though, that is a term I, too, can actually understand...and I agree that the next question is probably, "Where do you see the current version on a badass scale of 1-10, and how badass would you like it?"
> 
> ...



Really interesting question. I think to improve it the badass factor you just have to know what badass is for you and who much badass e.g. a producer wants.
Some people think their stuff goes badass when they put a little loop in their tracks, so people think the track goes badass when they try to cut the strings while playing the guitar.


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## Reegs (Jun 16, 2008)

Bruce Richardson @ Sun Jun 15 said:


> I have decided that all of my work needs to be significantly more badass.
> 
> In all seriousness, though, that is a term I, too, can actually understand...and I agree that the next question is probably, "Where do you see the current version on a badass scale of 1-10, and how badass would you like it?"
> 
> ...



Can't we just compress the hell out of our 11's and boost the gain to bring it to 12? :D


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## VFXS Sound Designer (Jun 16, 2008)

Bruce Richardson @ Sun Jun 15 said:


> I have decided that all of my work needs to be significantly more badass.
> 
> In all seriousness, though, that is a term I, too, can actually understand...and I agree that the next question is probably, "Where do you see the current version on a badass scale of 1-10, and how badass would you like it?"
> 
> ...



LOL Richardson,

well, i don't think this will be a problem. All my knobs go to 12. Look.


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## nikolas (Jun 16, 2008)

Woah!

I recognise that fingernail!

Jim?!? Is that you?


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## Jaap (Jun 16, 2008)

VFXS Sound Designer @ Mon Jun 16 said:


> Bruce Richardson @ Sun Jun 15 said:
> 
> 
> > I have decided that all of my work needs to be significantly more badass.
> ...



I think you are secretely hiding the "14" with your finger...


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## Hannes_F (Jun 17, 2008)

Having to be badassy seems to be the crux of videogame composers. Basically music for illustrating the joy of killing if you think about it.

Bah.

OK, it is a good market and music has to serve the plot and probably I am the only one not liking it ... but still - bah.

This whole thread is just a result of the bahiness of the badassiness.


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