# BBCSO (Core) vs NotePerformer in Dorico?



## PhilA (Jan 14, 2022)

Can I ask those of you who use Dorico and one of these two (or Both) Libraries and playback templates which you prefer and why?
NotePerformer (which I have on Trial at the moment) seems very nice sounding given it's lightweight size and very easily usable. BBCSO feels less easy to use (this my be my lack of experience) Ig guess given it's not technically designed for Notation software like NotePerfomer is.

I guess what I'm trying to do Is NOT buy ANOTHER Orchestral library but if NP really is the thing for this then I'm open to it (Especially as they have a rent to own option)

Things in Favour of BBCSO at the moment are purely technical (M1 native, probably not a big thing tbh) and it's lovely sound.

I'd like to hear the opinions of those wayyyyy more experienced than I.

Thanks


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## Vlzmusic (Jan 14, 2022)

If you arrange tools by "investment vs money-made-with-it" principle, Noteperformer is a clear winner between all my tools. The time factor and ease of use is also top notch - IF you accept certain limitations in sound.

I've spent some extra time, trying to bring it closer to sampled orchestras, but it was not a rewarding experience, so I just take it for what it is, a great, and smart Orchestral synth which unlike any VsTi out there, actually "thinks" about your music, note lengths, accents, better mixing of tutti passages, and synchronized note attacks.


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## ed buller (Jan 14, 2022)

I abandoned the NOTEPERFORMER/SIBELIUS combo last year in favour of DORICO/VSL VIENNA ENSEMBLE and third party libraries, as i was starting to hate the sound I was getting. Noteperformer is great for quick fixes and mockups but for a finished product it's not really capable of fooling anyone. It's unrealistic to expect 129$ worth of software to replace ten's of thousands ( basically what's on my hard drives )

Is it easy getting Dorico to work as seamlessly with BBC as NOTEPERFORMER ? 

eh..no !

But DORICO 4 has made it a bit easier. But you will still need (to make it really worthwhile) to put in the hours setting things up. You will need VSL to host the plug-ins. I spent a good couple of months but it's been totally worthwhile and my Dorico template now is as good as my CUBASE one. 

Best

ed


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## PhilA (Jan 14, 2022)

Thanks both.
Ed is there any reason you host in VEPro instead of in Dorico (above the usual VEPro is more multi core efficient?)


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## Pappaus (Jan 14, 2022)

It is what you need out of the product. If you want to have a finished product that you can export a final audio right out of Dorico, NotePerformer is not what you want.

Where NotePerformer shines is the total ease of working. Along with a great deal of articulations and instrument options. Your workflow will never be derailed by any technical issues or waiting for instruments to load. I love Noteperformer and working with it is all about the music. You would then want to move to a DAW and product such as BBCSO to create your final sound files.

You should (If financially possible) get Noteperformer anyway if you go with BBCSO as you can write with it, then change the playback template and work with BBCSO inside Dorico at the end.


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## Pappaus (Jan 14, 2022)

PhilA said:


> Thanks both.
> Ed is there any reason you host in VEPro instead of in Dorico (above the usual VEPro is more multi core efficient?)


I would imagine the VEPro at the least allows you to keep BBCSO loaded in RAM while you switch between projects or take a break as BBCSO loading takes a while

ps - Sorry to jump in - I am not Ed but I wrote in just in case Ed couldn’t get back to you right away


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## ed buller (Jan 14, 2022)

PhilA said:


> Thanks both.
> Ed is there any reason you host in VEPro instead of in Dorico (above the usual VEPro is more multi core efficient?)


It's just a very very different experience. VEpro does ALL the heavy lifting and dorico just deals with the midi. It's super fast and crash free. DORICO hosting the samples is a recipe for disaster for me

best

e


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## ed buller (Jan 14, 2022)

Pappaus said:


> Where NotePerformer shines is the total ease of working. Along with a great deal of articulations and instrument options. Your workflow will never be derailed by any technical issues or waiting for instruments to load. I love Noteperformer and working with it is all about the music. You would then want to move to a DAW and product such as BBCSO to create your final sound files.


This is indeed why Noteperformer is such a breakthrough product. It's impact and quality really can't be overestimated. Total gamechanger for many. 

But with a lot of time and effort you can set up Dorico so it will perform LIKE Noteperformer but with really great samples !...you just need to set it up.

Once this is done every time you start with a blank score. Then create a VLn1 Instrument. ALL your work will be accessible straight away. No load times ! And Just like noteperformer, when you change the articulation on the score, add mutes, special bowings etc...it will access the samples you chose for this....

It's wonderful

Best

ed


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## PhilA (Jan 14, 2022)

Thanks Ed I'll play with my Note Performer Trial for a bit by transcribing a few Score (Mars Bringer of War is favourite for this) then try the same with BBCSO in VEPro via the existing template (it'll be lots of work but maybe worth it)

Thanks again.


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## Gil (Jan 14, 2022)

Hello,

@ed buller has been kind enough to give a few hints about his workflow in this post.

Wondering if, Ed, you're thinking about doing a longer post (or even a course) using BBC SO Pro/VEP7 with Dorico 4 (this is the easy part, already done it), but more precisely the way you're building expression maps + using Dorico play features to make it performs as great as NotePerformer.

On a side note, the next version of NotePerformer (4) is in the works with better sounds.

Best regards,
Gil.


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## Saxer (Jan 14, 2022)

For me Noteperformer wins. The sound of the output isn't good for strings and percussion but the main impression of the written stuff is much more reliable in terms of balance and articulation.

I tried some string libraries and all the available expression templates (VSL Synchron Strings Pro and Elite and BBCSO) but nothing beats Noteperformer in phrasing and dynamic without the need (and the possibility) to touch CC curves.

I think the best compromise is using Noteperformer and replace the pianos, harp and percussion by better libraries. Percussive instruments don't need Noteperformers interpretation mode to sound musical.

I wish Noteperformer would get better strings!

Exception is pop and jazz arranging. Noteperformer can't handle these styles.


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## ed buller (Jan 14, 2022)

They way It worked for me was to basically go through EVERY sample Library I had and decided what articulations I really liked. The big effort went into strings . After picking samples that I liked, I went through scores and listened to Recordings, and tried to find the best patches do all the articulations. So for instance short strings took a couple of weeks. Just listening to short strings in many soundtracks and at different tempi and trying to replicate that. So Asteroid Chase from EMPIRE took a long time to get all the right sounds for. Some I still can't get. Measured terms are very very tuff....

So then I had say 50 articulations I wanted to have constant access to. I needed to write a definition for all 50 in text or symbols that I could use to get an expression map to do the switch. 






You end up with this. A list of names and symbols that you use to get the playback you want. It's fiddly but worth it. So for instance "Divisi Sord" will access Spitfire's chamber sordino. I just Highlight the notes in the score and click the text and It's an instant program change. The harmonic symbol switches to harmonics. "Jete Vite" will give me Berlin's "blurred staccs" that sounds as close as I could get to a bit in The Rite Of Spring. 

So it takes a lot of work listening..trying to find sounds that work..then giving them useful names

best

e


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## ed buller (Jan 14, 2022)

Saxer said:


> For me Noteperformer wins. The sound of the output isn't good for strings and percussion but the main impression of the written stuff is much more reliable in terms of balance and articulation.


Honestly samples correctly programed sound sooooo much better. In tutti Passages Noteperformer sounds like a pipe organ. You just have to do the work programming your temple. Then it's good to go.

best

e


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## Saxer (Jan 14, 2022)

ed buller said:


> Honestly samples correctly programed sound sooooo much better. In tutti Passages Noteperformer sounds like a pipe organ. You just have to do the work programming your temple. Then it's good to go.
> 
> best
> 
> e


Would be interesting to compare... do you have any examples?

And do you write CC curves after writing in Dorico?


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## synergy543 (Jan 14, 2022)

Ed, what is the size of your VSL Template with all of the instruments and articulations you've culled?

And what is the load time of this set?

I'm very interested in this approach and am currently only using BBSCO, although my next step was to host mixed libs in VE Pro. I'll start small, but I'm trying to figure out what is a reasonable target to aim for. in terms of RAM, and load time.

Also, any tips for hosting OT libs? There seem to be few Dorico articulation maps for these so I haven't tried this lib set yet.


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## ed buller (Jan 14, 2022)

Saxer said:


> Would be interesting to compare... do you have any examples?
> 
> And do you write CC curves after writing in Dorico?


if needed but to be honest I am trying not to . Dynamic Markings and Hairpins do almost enough as you can program what cc for those too !

best

e


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## ed buller (Jan 14, 2022)

synergy543 said:


> Ed, what is the size of your VSL Template with all of the instruments and articulations you've culled?
> 
> And what is the load time of this set?
> 
> ...


My Template in VSL is 84000 KB. 






this is Just the first Vlns. VSL synchron, BBC,Spitfire Symphony and Chamber, Berlin , OT Sphere and Cinematic Strings . 

best

e


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## ed buller (Jan 14, 2022)

synergy543 said:


> Also, any tips for hosting OT libs? There seem to be few Dorico articulation maps for these so I haven't tried this lib set yet.


Just make your own. Then you can guarantee the results

best

e


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## synergy543 (Jan 14, 2022)

ed buller said:


> Just make your own. Then you can guarantee the results


Yes, and now to figure out how!

With strange articulation names (Spitfire has some weird ones), do you just specify the original name in text to call the art up in the articulation set or do you find yourself renaming articulations to find an equivalent standard or common naming convention? For example, when there are several legatos to choose from, I haven't figured out the most pragmatic way to specify these in a score (legato type 1, legato type 2, etc?).


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## ed buller (Jan 14, 2022)

synergy543 said:


> Yes, and now to figure out how!
> 
> With strange articulation names (Spitfire has some weird ones), do you just specify the original name in text to call it up in the articulation set or do you find yourself renaming articulations to find an equivalent convention? For example, when there are several legatos to choose from, I haven't figured out the most pragmatic way to specify these in a score (legato type 1, legato type 2, etc?).


I actually try and have only musical terms on the score. Then find sounds to match. 

e


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## joebaggan (Jan 14, 2022)

Noteperformer allows you to concentrate on the composing without all the distraction of sample lib configuration and loading times, and the price is right. If I'm writing, I want to focus on the writing ( not getting bogged down in technical/sample minutiae ) and NP is fast and decent sounding. It also has some AI functionality that helps making it more musical sounding than just loading up some samples for playback. Of course you can always export it later to Cubase to get more realistic samples, but for me, that's a separate task and tends to involve tedious midi/sample tweaking ( icing on the cake ).


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## PhilA (Jan 14, 2022)

I’d like to thank everyone and especially Ed for all of tha fantastic and useful discussion here. It’s it extremely insightful 👍🏻


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## Kalli (Jan 14, 2022)

Gil said:


> On a side note, the next version of NotePerformer (4) is in the works with better sounds.


Interesting! Where can we find information about this? Have you heard anything about an estimated time frame?


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jan 14, 2022)

Very interesting to hear both sides. I've tried the BBCSO and Synchron playback templates from Spitfire and VSL and they generally work "decently" - but I'm not going for final output from Dorico. Curious to hear what NP will sound like - they have a nice trial option and a very fair pricing structure (including rent to own).


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jan 14, 2022)

Oh wow, things sound so great with NotePerformer with the same exact MIDI / notation compared to the BBCSO / Synchron templates - not in terms of quality of samples of course, but in terms of interpreting the music as you would expect. Does it sound a bit like a decade old General MIDI orchestra? Yes. But it certainly plays back in much more realistic fashion. Think this will be an easy purchase for me given I don't care about rendering the output.


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## ed buller (Jan 15, 2022)

"The Asteroid Field" Strings Only:

Noteperformer:

View attachment Asteriod Field Noteperformer.mp3


Samples:

View attachment Asteroid Chase Strings - Asteriod Field Strings Chris.mp3



Same file. One plays Noteperformer, The other plays my Strings Template . No added FX or Midi Manipulations on either file. Dynamics are CC1 and are from Markings on the score. There are NO program changes in the sample version other than the ones that are automic from note lengths . I would now go through the sample and change them for trem's , measured trems , glisses , Samples just for runs ,and the many variations in short bows that are required to make this sound more realistic. This can all be done from the score edit page with text popovers.

Best

ed


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## Gil (Jan 15, 2022)

Kalli said:


> Interesting! Where can we find information about this? Have you heard anything about an estimated time frame?


Hello,

Nothing official but a Dorico user had this answer (posted in this Dorico post):

From an email convo with Wallander Instruments [NotePerformer parent company], Dec. 25, 2021:


> We’re currently working on the next instalment of our software [4.0],
> which is a significant update. I’m afraid I can’t get into the
> details. We’re working on a platform that should allow us to use
> better-quality sounds, and this is an essential step towards that goal
> to provide a greater variety of instruments and sounds in the future.


Best regards,
Gil.


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## ka00 (Jan 15, 2022)

I found this to be a useful comparison:


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## Kalli (Jan 15, 2022)

Gil said:


> Hello,
> 
> Nothing official but a Dorico user had this answer (posted in this Dorico post):
> 
> ...


Thanks, Gil! That sounds promising.


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## sundrowned (Jan 15, 2022)

Developers should build specific dorico (or notation in general) versions of their libraries. Imagine a BBCSO library specifically built to work in the notation apps, like noteperformer.


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## Saxer (Jan 15, 2022)

ed buller said:


> "The Asteroid Field" Strings Only:
> 
> Noteperformer:
> 
> ...


Great work, absolutely worth the efford!


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## benwiggy (Jan 17, 2022)

synergy543 said:


> Also, any tips for hosting OT libs? There seem to be few Dorico articulation maps for these so I haven't tried this lib set yet.


The real problem with OT libraries, is that they are designed with very slow attacks that in a DAW you would nudge early.





Tableau Solo Strings - Notes - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk


Negative delay values for Tableau Solo Strings For Tableau Solo Strings patches that combine multiple legato techniques we recommend using a negative delay of -




orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com





While you can do this in Dorico, it would change a property of the notes' themselves, rather than changing a global attribute of the sample library; so if you change the library, you've still got all the early starts. And I don't think there's an easy way to set/unset that globally; but I could be wrong.

I've found creating Ex Maps for OT libraries really difficult without getting missing notes, held notes, or just slush.


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## dcoscina (Jan 17, 2022)

ed buller said:


> "The Asteroid Field" Strings Only:
> 
> Noteperformer:
> 
> ...


On my iPhone the NP version shorts sound more convincing to be honest- their tone and attack seems
More authentic. Again this is in my iPhone but I found it interesting that I preferred the NP version.


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## ed buller (Jan 17, 2022)

dcoscina said:


> On my iPhone the NP version shorts sound more convincing to be honest- their tone and attack seems
> More authentic. Again this is in my iPhone but I found it interesting that I preferred the NP version.


iphone ????? seriously ???

best

e


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## Vlzmusic (Jan 17, 2022)

sundrowned said:


> Developers should build specific dorico (or notation in general) versions of their libraries. Imagine a BBCSO library specifically built to work in the notation apps, like noteperformer.


Noteperformer works like Noteperformer because it's a synth. You would have to make a hybrid library, Aaron Venture style , for it to work like Noteperformer.


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## Daryl (Jan 17, 2022)

ed buller said:


> iphone ????? seriously ???
> 
> best
> 
> e


Isn't that how most directors listen to stuff you send them, though?


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## ed buller (Jan 17, 2022)

Daryl said:


> Isn't that how most directors listen to stuff you send them, though?


god I hope not...Bands yes..."snare sounds crap on my phone etc !!"

e


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Jan 17, 2022)

ka00 said:


> I found this to be a useful comparison:



The moment you realize a computer program can make better mockups than you (= I ) can!


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## RogiervG (Jan 17, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> The moment you realize a computer program can make better mockups than you (= I ) can!


hehehe...
welll both come out of the computer.. 

But, noteperformer is not bad at all, in contrast (a/b comparing).. only a bit thin sounding often.. And the strings are the weaker part i find. (meaning they can sound a bit synthetic, especially in lower registers. so not as good as pro libs (with tweaks).. or staffpad third party libs, but still good)

I wonder how NP will sound in version 4 (i hope they work the strings to a better quality... like the brass, which is the best part of NP imho, when doing sections. Solo horn is attrocious in contrast)


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## SteveStudio (Apr 22, 2022)

joebaggan said:


> Noteperformer allows you to concentrate on the composing without all the distraction of sample lib configuration and loading times, and the price is right. If I'm writing, I want to focus on the writing ( not getting bogged down in technical/sample minutiae ) and NP is fast and decent sounding. It also has some AI functionality that helps making it more musical sounding than just loading up some samples for playback. Of course you can always export it later to Cubase to get more realistic samples, but for me, that's a separate task and tends to involve tedious midi/sample tweaking ( icing on the cake ).


Joe, bingo. This is what I was wondering. If I'm following you, I could compose in Dorico and use NotePeformer. Then, I could import the score into Cubase and use my sample libraries and draw in CCs, and so on. Do I have it about right?


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