# What makes a song / track epic?



## germancomponist (Mar 18, 2013)

Again and again we hear the term *epic*, especially *epic music*.

If I remember right, *epic* originally referred only to a style of ancient poetry. Nowadays it seems to be more meant as "big, cool, awesome....."

How do you define?


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## rayinstirling (Mar 18, 2013)

Gunther :lol: 
In this particular case I define it as a good excuse to "stir the proverbial" especially following on from your last discussion _-)


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## Daryl (Mar 18, 2013)

Taikos.

D


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## Blackster (Mar 18, 2013)

IMO it's always about space !! The larger the space, the more 'epic' it sounds. It's not about one particular instrument ...


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## doctornine (Mar 18, 2013)

HAH - I'm going to say : Megahorns, donks, braaaaaams etc etc

And promptly run for cover.

~o)


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 18, 2013)

Not gonna go there o=< :lol: >8o


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Mar 18, 2013)

stop gunther... just stop :|


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## Alex Cuervo (Mar 18, 2013)

Gabriel Oliveira @ Mon Mar 18 said:


> stop gunther... just stop :|



+1


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## germancomponist (Mar 18, 2013)

Gabriel Oliveira @ Mon Mar 18 said:


> stop gunther... just stop :|



Huh? What's wrong with this question?


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Mar 18, 2013)

germancomponist @ Mon Mar 18 said:


> Huh? What's wrong with this question?



Nothing wrong with the question itself, just with the questioner's intentions...

We all know that you aren't interested in epic music and this thread will become just one more opportunity to criticize "modern composers, "trailer music" and "hybrid-choir-synth-bigdrum-taiko-braaaam-bighorns-spiccatochugchug-epic orchestral tracks"


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## germancomponist (Mar 18, 2013)

Gabriel Oliveira @ Mon Mar 18 said:


> germancomponist @ Mon Mar 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Huh? What's wrong with this question?
> ...



You are completely wrong, Sir, absolutely wrong!

BTW, Interesting to know that you are "we all".


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Mar 18, 2013)

germancomponist @ Mon Mar 18 said:


> You are completely wrong, Sir, absolutely wrong!
> 
> BTW, Interesting to know that you are "we all".



I'm not the only one who thinks that way... Alex is +1 (and probably others as well)

I hope you prove my thoughts wrong...

Sorry for judging you, anyway


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## mark812 (Mar 18, 2013)

Again..really?


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## R.Cato (Mar 18, 2013)

Alex Cuervo @ Mon Mar 18 said:


> Gabriel Oliveira @ Mon Mar 18 said:
> 
> 
> > stop gunther... just stop :|
> ...



+2 :|


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## germancomponist (Mar 18, 2013)

I do not like overproduced trailers, yes, that's right. No doubt about that!

I do not like it, these 1000 copies of HZ's sound/music elements. Also true!

But what have these facts to do with epic music in general? Where did I say that I don't like epic music?

..


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 18, 2013)

germancomponist @ Mon Mar 18 said:


> I do not like overproduced trailers, yes, that's right. No doubt about that!
> 
> I do not like it, these 1000 copies of HZ's sound/music elements. Also true!
> 
> ...



Gunther, perhaps you can allay their suspicions by giving a couple of examples of "epic" music that you do like?

Unfortunately, the meaning of "epic" as commonly used now DOES mean the overuse of all those elements in a way that you (and I) do not like.

Alex North's score for "Spartacus" and Miklos Rozsa's score for "Ben-Hur" were examples of what an "epic" score used to mean and they were brilliant musically, stirring, and worked great with the films, but they were both exceptional composers.


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## germancomponist (Mar 18, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Mar 18 said:


> Gunther, perhaps you can allay their suspicions by giving a couple of examples of "epic" music that you do like?
> 
> Unfortunately, the meaning of "epic" as commonly used now DOES mean the overuse of all those elements in a way that you (and I) do not like.
> 
> Alex North's score for "Spartacus" and Miklos Rozsa's score for "Ben-Hur" were examples of what an "epic" score used to mean and they were brilliant musically, stirring, and worked great with the films, but they were both exceptional composers.



These 2 are good examples, Jay!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 18, 2013)

Okay, here's the final answer to the question:

Carmina Burana rip-offs.

Epic. NEXT!


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## reddognoyz (Mar 18, 2013)

NEEDS....MORE....KE$HA............

now that's epic


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## handz (Mar 18, 2013)

In good old days: Well written music and right orchestration.

Now: Hell-load of percussion bum bang bang and block chords above them.


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## Tatu (Mar 18, 2013)

handz @ Mon Mar 18 said:


> In good old days: Well written music and right orchestration.
> 
> Now: Hell-load of percussion bum bang bang and block chords above them.



Yeah, bum bangs and blocks of chords are for pussies.

Here's how it's done:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpLNMI9MZa0
:D


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## RiffWraith (Mar 18, 2013)

_What makes a song / track epic? _

Compose track
Play said track for Gunther
If he doesn't like it, it's *EPIC*

:lol:


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## germancomponist (Mar 18, 2013)

RiffWraith @ Mon Mar 18 said:


> _What makes a song / track epic? _
> 
> Compose track
> Play said track for Gunther
> ...



 o=<


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## TheUnfinished (Mar 18, 2013)

Epic tends to be about size.

Whilst today's sound design and braam heavy trailer stuff stands as epic in one sense (because it does suggest size!), I would also classify something like Holst's 'The Planets' and Jarre's soundtrack to Lawrence of Arabia.

Anything that suggest width, breadth, enormity... I've even heard some ambient music that I'd describe as ambient.


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## lee (Mar 18, 2013)

TheUnfinished @ Mon Mar 18 said:


> I've even heard some ambient music that I'd describe as ambient.


Haha no kidding?


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## lee (Mar 18, 2013)

Double post


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## dedersen (Mar 18, 2013)

germancomponist @ Mon Mar 18 said:


> I do not like overproduced trailers, yes, that's right. No doubt about that!
> 
> I do not like it, these 1000 copies of HZ's sound/music elements. Also true!
> 
> ...


Thanks for confirming my (and others, it would seem) suspitions about your intentions with this thread. Really, it's starting to becoming old, Gunther, hearing you drone on and on about this. You're becoming more repetitive than any epic trailer track has ever been. It may be a language thing - though I am starting to really doubt it - but it's starting to really get on my nerves the way you seem so intent on indirectly putting down a large portion of this community with some 50% of your messages.


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## guitarman1960 (Mar 18, 2013)

Really had to laugh out loud when trailer music library Gothic Storm releasesd a collection recently called 'EPIC STEP' good grief!!!!!!
Lets make cliched music even more unbearable by crushing it to bits with horrible 'dubstep' synth sounds and stutter edits!!
Just NOOOOO!!!!!!!


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## RiffWraith (Mar 18, 2013)

guitarman1960 @ Tue Mar 19 said:


> Really had to laugh out loud when trailer music library Gothic Storm releasesd a collection recently called 'EPIC STEP' good grief!!!!!!
> Lets make cliched music even more unbearable by crushing it to bits with horrible 'dubstep' synth sounds and stutter edits!!
> Just NOOOOO!!!!!!!



What - you havent heard the EpicStep track from TSFH?


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## guitarman1960 (Mar 18, 2013)

Hope you are joking there, TSFH are usually very classy and certainly epic in a good way.


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## musophrenic (Mar 19, 2013)

guitarman1960 @ Tue Mar 19 said:


> Hope you are joking there, TSFH are usually very classy and certainly epic in a good way.



I think Jeff is referring to this (which I LOVE):


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## germancomponist (Mar 19, 2013)

dedersen @ Mon Mar 18 said:


> ... but it's starting to really get on my nerves the way you seem so intent on indirectly putting down a large portion of this community with some 50% of your messages.



How can you say this? This wasn't and isn't never my intention.

If you are a friend of the music what I don't like, fine. I think everyone is free to decide what he likes and what not. Do you have a problem with the fact that I do not like overproduced trailers, HZ copyists e.t.c. ? As you can read here and elsewhere, I am not allone with my opinion!


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## guitarman1960 (Mar 19, 2013)

Very nice track until 3.04 !!! LOL

I do really rate TSFH, great composers and great producers and have some of their albums. Just amazing production quality on their work.

I suppose music supervisors must be asking for dubstep elements to try and appear to be 'street'' and appeal to younger audiences. 

Would be very interested to hear if anyone can explain to me how there is anything at all of musical value in random sawtooth synth swooping pitch bends which is all 'dubstep' seems to consist of.

I've been an avid fan of electronic music since TD in the 1970's, and there are some great artists and fantastic tracks in most genres such as Ambient, Chill Out, Hip Hop, Jungle, Drum & Bass, Trance etc

Dubstep seems to have no rhythmic or musical value I can put a finger on, just sounds like the thing kids put on as loud as possible when they drive their cars round and round McDonalds car parks to annoy everyone. Open to being shown therwise though.


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## Waywyn (Mar 19, 2013)

guitarman1960 @ Tue Mar 19 said:


> Would be very interested to hear if anyone can explain to me how there is anything at all of musical value in random sawtooth synth swooping pitch bends which is all 'dubstep' seems to consist of



The same musical value than taking a piece of wood or metal, put a few holes in it and create a sound with it. 

The same musical value, than taking a guitar and overcompressing and feedbacking a signal that much to create what has become an electric guitars lead sound. 

... as taking a piece of skin and put it on a bowl and hit it with a wooden stick 

... as taking a funny formed cup and put it in front of a trumpet to create that farty mute sound

Should I go on? It is either your cup of tea or not.


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## RiffWraith (Mar 19, 2013)

guitarman1960 @ Tue Mar 19 said:


> Hope you are joking there, TSFH are usually very classy and certainly epic in a good way.



Nope, was not joking at all.  

Muso's got the link.


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## TheUnfinished (Mar 19, 2013)

lee @ Mon Mar 18 said:


> TheUnfinished @ Mon Mar 18 said:
> 
> 
> > I've even heard some ambient music that I'd describe as ambient.
> ...


Clearly either my brain or my hands were not interested in completing that sentence coherently.

The missing word was, of course, 'epic' not 'ambient'.

I think TSFH's quality is generally quite excellent, but even they've made a bit of a hash of adding dubstep elements there.


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## guitarman1960 (Mar 19, 2013)

Yes, it's a real shame when someone of the quality and stature of TSFH ruin a great track with that nonsense.

Guess you have to blame music supervisors if that's what they are calling for. When Advertising steals from Youth Culture to shift Product that's pretty much the death knell for any street cred a genre might have had so hopefully this gimmick will have a very very short shelf life.

Production gimmicks date really fast anyway thank god. Anyone remember Gated Reverb on snare drums to make them sound like stupid massive canons going off? LOL Listen to any of that now and cringe!!


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## Darthmorphling (Mar 19, 2013)

While I tend to agree that Dubstep is overhyped at the moment, when done creatively it can sound pretty good. Look at some of Daniel James' tracks, he uses some wobbles and drops very effectively.

Every generation has music that the old farts cannot stand to listen to. Open your mind and accept that music changes. Don't be the closed minded old fart, be the open minded one. :mrgreen: 

And yes I consider myself an old fart.


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## germancomponist (Mar 19, 2013)

Darthmorphling @ Tue Mar 19 said:


> While I tend to agree that Dubstep is overhyped at the moment, when done creatively it can sound pretty good. Look at some of Daniel James' tracks, he uses some wobbles and drops very effectively.
> 
> Every generation has music that the old farts cannot stand to listen to. Open your mind and accept that music changes. Don't be the closed minded old fart, be the open minded one. :mrgreen:
> 
> And yes I consider myself an old fart.



I too have heard some cool dubstep arrangements. But there is also many s--t on the market, at least for my ears.


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## CalebAuston (Mar 19, 2013)

If you look at everything from electronica to epic orchestral scoring there are really two major things that will capture that "Epic" sound. 

First, and most importantly, there needs to be some form of building suspense and tension to a final release point or in dubstep's case "the drop". 

Second, the way that the build is usually developed in both styles of music is by the us of layering. The further into your build up you get, the more instruments, parts and doubling there should be to get that sound to become bigger and bigger.

If you create a solid and suspensful build up with a nice release, your song should definitely be Epic.

Best of luck,
-Caleb


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## guitarman1960 (Mar 19, 2013)

LOL, yes I'm an old fart too. I do try to be open minded and well remember my parents and teachers hating both punk rock and Tangerine Dream while I thought both were amazing, so I will try and search out some good dubstep tracks. There must be some somewhere I suppose.

I think it's when the production gimmicks that define the genre are so incongruously grafted onto something else entirely such as an immaculately crafted high end orchestral track then it can't help but sound very contrived, and is obviously done to fit a marketing demographic.


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## Darthmorphling (Mar 19, 2013)

guitarman1960 @ Tue Mar 19 said:


> LOL, yes I'm an old fart too. I do try to be open minded and well remember my parents and teachers hating both punk rock and Tangerine Dream while I thought both were amazing, so I will try and search out some good dubstep tracks. There must be some somewhere I suppose
> 
> I think it's when the production gimmicks that define the genre are so incongruously grafted onto something else entirely such as an immaculately crafted high end orchestral track then it can't help but sound very contrived, and is obviously done to fit a marketing demographic.



This is the key right here. I am a huge fan of metal, at the same time being a huge fan of the orchestra. However, very few people can combine the two, without it sounding cheesy.

Honestly, the only marriage of the two that I think works is Metallica's S&M. I attribute it to the genius that was Michael Kaman. Even Yngwie Malmsteen's Concerto for Electric guitar seemed like a forced production.

My guess would be that adding Dubstep to an orchestra, would require writing the orchestral parts around the dubstep elements.


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## Lex (Mar 19, 2013)

guitarman1960 @ Tue Mar 19 said:


> so I will try and search out some good dubstep tracks. There must be some somewhere I suppose.


 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cngFaHM0u9w



alex


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## Cruciform (Mar 19, 2013)

Removed.


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## Dan Mott (Mar 19, 2013)

Brass!

People have got to stop using brass, or at least use it in a different way. I'd like to see someone create an epic/trailer track without brass or woodwinds. DO IT. Or please link me!


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## Peter Alexander (Mar 19, 2013)

The question is a fair one, and a good one to get a potential client to define as early as possible, as epic today means something different then when it was originally used in filmland. 

Technically, as Jay and The Unfinished pointed out, an epic story is a production, usually about an individual or event that is the stuff of legend. It can be about real people, mythological, or made up people and events.

Such a story often requires a larger musical ensemble to bring out the larger than life grandeur of the story, which can often involve a lot of personal sacrifice. 

Looking to opera, Wagner's Ring of The Nibelung is an epic story that requires large orchestral forces to support the story.

Ben Hur (fictional), El Cid (based on a real character, Rodrigo Díaz de Vivar), and the 10 Commandments (historical), fit this description. The composer of the first two was Miklos Rozsa while Elmer Bernstein scored the 10 Commandments. 

More contemporary, I think LOTR hits epic status, and in a different vein, so does The Avengers.


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## Cruciform (Mar 19, 2013)

guitarman1960 @ Tue Mar 19 said:


> Really had to laugh out loud when trailer music library Gothic Storm releasesd a collection recently called 'EPIC STEP' good grief!!!!!!
> Lets make cliched music even more unbearable by crushing it to bits with horrible 'dubstep' synth sounds and stutter edits!!
> Just NOOOOO!!!!!!!



I have a lot of tracks on that collection. Good to know your opinion. o/~

Horrible? Subjective. Cliched? Subjective. Unbearable? Subjective.

I'm trying really hard to think of a polite and disarming way to respond to such bigotry but as I can't, I'll just refrain from saying anything else. :roll:


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## Dan Mott (Mar 19, 2013)

Cruciform @ Wed Mar 20 said:


> guitarman1960 @ Tue Mar 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Really had to laugh out loud when trailer music library Gothic Storm releasesd a collection recently called 'EPIC STEP' good grief!!!!!!
> ...



His opinion is actually not subjective in this case, but what he is saying are facts. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## re-peat (Mar 20, 2013)

Peter Alexander @ Wed Mar 20 said:


> (...) and the 10 Commandments (historical), (...)


The 10 Commandments, _historical_?? Excuse me, but I can't help but wonder, what definition of the term 'historical' do you apply to make the events as told in "The 10 Commandments" fit that categorisation?

_


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## Peter Alexander (Mar 20, 2013)

re-peat @ Wed Mar 20 said:


> Peter Alexander @ Wed Mar 20 said:
> 
> 
> > (...) and the 10 Commandments (historical), (...)
> ...



That is a discussion which is not germain to this thread. The question is about what's epic and the movie was produced and marketed in its time as an epic.


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## re-peat (Mar 20, 2013)

Peter Alexander @ Wed Mar 20 said:


> (...) not germain to this thread. (...)


Not germane? That has never been a consideration which has guided you before, has it? Besides, if it's not germane, why did you bring it up in the first place? You did, didn't you? Or was that just a little non-germane addendum which we were supposed to ignore?
The historical accuracy or inaccuracy of "The 10 Commandments" is no more or less germane to this discussion than dubstep is. It seems to me.

_


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## guitarman1960 (Mar 20, 2013)

Lex @ Tue Mar 19 said:


> guitarman1960 @ Tue Mar 19 said:
> 
> 
> > so I will try and search out some good dubstep tracks. There must be some somewhere I suppose.
> ...



Many thanks Alex, just took a listen and that sounds great, really nice track, great production too. :D 

From listening to that you can tell that proper dubstep is constructed as a whole entity which works, rather than taking 'dubstep elements' and dumping them on top of an orchestral cue, which in my humble opinion sounds very fake.


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## guitarman1960 (Mar 20, 2013)

Cruciform @ Wed Mar 20 said:


> guitarman1960 @ Tue Mar 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Really had to laugh out loud when trailer music library Gothic Storm releasesd a collection recently called 'EPIC STEP' good grief!!!!!!
> ...



I think I owe you an apology there. Didn't mean anything personal or to disrespect your hard work. Could have phrased my opinions better without it becoming a bit of a rant.


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