# Trends in modern film scoring



## marclawsonmusic (Sep 29, 2021)

"The world is changed. I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air. Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it."

We have discussed ad nauseum the ways film scoring has changed. I don't want to debate what 'should be' or get nostalgic about the past or get emotional in this thread... I don't want to talk about what we like or don't like - I would simply like to discuss _what is _today - to identify current trends in film scoring. Feel free to share examples as you see fit, or contradict me if you feel my observations are incorrect. Please be polite!

Here is some of what I see:

*Preference for textures*
I think back to The Dark Knight and it was pretty drone-y, and I thought it was textural in many ways. But there were still plenty of motives / musical / tonal devices to latch on to. Today, it seems the pendulum has swung even further in the textural direction - even less tonal and more soundscape-y.


*Including FX with the soundscape*
Like hearing the wind in 'Interstellar' or the sands in 'Dune', the score sometimes has environmental elements incorporated.


*Use of percussion*
Along with the soundscape element, there seems to be an affinity for percussion. Beyond the pulsing synths and ticks, there are sometimes whole tracks that are basically a series of percussion motives over a drone.


*Use of hardware synths*
Nostalgia about the 'wall of synths' seems to have come back in recent years. I have seen all kinds of new synth products on the market and it seems every composer now has a rack of modular or vintage (or even NEW) synth gear.


*Creating soundscapes from organic sources*
Like what Hildur did in Chernobyl - recording raw audio that is linked to the story and finding ways to create a soundscape / texture from it.


*Pitchbend*
I feel like I've heard a lot of pitchbend effects in scores in recent years - like the string bend in 'Dark', or bendy synths in 'Blade Runner 2049'. Maybe this is related to the use of synths?


What other trends do you see?


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## marclawsonmusic (Sep 30, 2021)

Bump... any takers?


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## Living Fossil (Sep 30, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> *Pitchbend*
> I feel like I've heard a lot of pitchbend effects in scores in recent years - like the string bend in 'Dark', or bendy synths in 'Blade Runner 2049'. Maybe this is related to the use of synths?


This trend is obvious. I asked myself recently if it's related to the Roli seabord.
(those small pitch deviations mostly work well in monophonic lines, i haven't heard a polyphonic performance on the Roli yet (with mictrotonal chords) that i somehow liked.
(although i sometimes like chords with microtonal intervals, but that's a very delicate topic)

The interesting thing with small deviations in melodic lines is the fact that it also was a huge trend in avantgarde music some decades ago.


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## handz (Sep 30, 2021)

No melodies. Coldness. Sterility.

The things you are mentioning are (luckily) mostly counting for those dark "serious" movies. These are using more of a synthy, experimental approach. Many movies still use somewhat classical orchestral sound just often with an addition of epic percussions - but this is a trend for like 10+ years now. 

I really do not like these scores where all the movement is driven by percussions instead of good orchestration, but this trend is here to stay forever it seems.


But the movies like comedies, romantic movies and well even those Marvel blockbusters are good old orchestral (although the action flicks put a lot more percussions there than necessary)


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Sep 30, 2021)

Most of it sounds like guys who used to be in a band and then went back in their 30s/40s to learn how an orchestra really works. DAWs guide users toward grids and “grooves” or “beats” or “pulses” from rock and dance music. That coupled with a non-classical musical backgrounds of composers, and a penchant for safety by supposedly artistic directors/collaborators, and there is very little area for expansion.

(…of course some of this is mitigated because top-flight composers hire out all the time.)

It would be nice if a top-flight composer would take a long, long break from film music, and get back to basics. I mean long… 5+ years.


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## AudioLoco (Sep 30, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Most of it sounds like guys who used to be in a band and then went back in their 30s/40s to learn how an orchestra really works. DAWs guide users toward grids and “grooves” or “beats” or “pulses” from rock and dance music. That coupled with a non-classical musical backgrounds of composers, and a penchant for safety by supposedly artistic directors/collaborators, and there is very little area for expansion.


Like Elfman? Reznor? Greenwood?


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## kilgurt (Sep 30, 2021)

Trend: music ---> sound


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## doctoremmet (Sep 30, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> *Pitchbend*
> I feel like I've heard a lot of pitchbend effects in scores in recent years - like the string bend in 'Dark', or bendy synths in 'Blade Runner 2049'. Maybe this is related to the use of synths?


I kind of like this trend. Have a listen to the 8Dio Hybrid Tools Phenex sample library demo track by @Troels Folmann - he uses pitch bend on the brass and strings samples. I love how he just does what he feels like and just expresses himself musically, without the pretense to strive for “realism”.



There’s a walkthrough video as well where he explains some of his compositional choices.


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## marclawsonmusic (Sep 30, 2021)

handz said:


> But the movies like comedies, romantic movies and well even those Marvel blockbusters are good old orchestral (although the action flicks put a lot more percussions there than necessary)


Good point, but when I check Box Office Mojo, there aren't very many comedies or romantic movies. There might be some kid movies, and those tend to lean towards orchestral, but seems the trend is away from pure orchestra for a while now.



kilgurt said:


> Trend: music ---> sound


Yes, this is what I meant by the 'soundscape' concept.



Stephen Limbaugh said:


> It would be nice if a top-flight composer would take a long, long break from film music, and get back to basics. I mean long… 5+ years.


Maybe that is what you want, as a classically trained musician. But it seems the industry is more interested in storytelling ability than musical prowess. Chernobyl was very effective scoring, even if it wasn't musical in a traditional sense.


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## handz (Sep 30, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Good point, but when I check Box Office Mojo, there aren't very many comedies or romantic movies. There might be some kid movies, and those tend to lean towards orchestral, but seems the trend is away from pure orchestra for a while now.


Well, yeah, but Marvel is there, DC, all the animated movies from Pixar and Disney... these are lush classical orchestra. Major horror movies are also very orchestra-based. 

Actually, this experimental, new style of music is practically only prominent in movies from Nolan, Villeneuve, and few other "serious" directors. Whose movies are hand in hand with this kind of music.

Take a look at the best movies from the past 5 years and I believe that most will have orchestral soundtracks rather than some soundscapes.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Sep 30, 2021)

See… some of y’all act like these new trends weren’t invented and practiced by Varese, Part, Ligeti, or Glass. There’s building on your predecessors, then there’s lifting their music and packaging it in a Happy Meal box for JJ Abrams. 

I’ve talked about this in other threads, but it isn’t an exciting thing to take an idea from Dolce and Gabbana then copying the vibe and selling it in TJ Maxx. 

I’m simply pointing out that it would be beneficial to everyone if there wasn’t such a scramble to sling the music like the only place to make money (or get the right tone of a scene!) is on the shelves of a Walmart.

Moreover, how many different kinds of film scores were being made 30 years ago. 50 years ago? How many unique compositional voices? The homogenization is undeniable.


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## Kyle Preston (Sep 30, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> *Use of percussion*
> Along with the soundscape element, there seems to be an affinity for percussion. Beyond the pulsing synths and ticks, there are sometimes whole tracks that are basically a series of percussion motives over a drone.



I mostly write ambient classical music but I've placed more and more importance on percussion lately. My interest started after reading Aaron Copland's _What To Listen For In Music_. In it, he outlines 4 elements of music:

1) Rhythm
2) Melody
3) Harmony
4) Texture/Timbre

And if you look at the science, evolution tells us that Rhythm came first (heartbeat) for Homo sapiens. (you can't have melody without rhythm or without individual notes, can't have harmony without understanding individual notes, etc..)

So I'm not sure an affinity for percussion is anything out of the ordinary. In fact, what's weird is that so much written music still finds an audience (today) _without _an emphasis on rhythm/percussion...


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## marclawsonmusic (Sep 30, 2021)

handz said:


> Well, yeah, but Marvel is there, DC, all the animated movies from Pixar and Disney... these are lush classical orchestra. Major horror movies are also very orchestra-based.
> 
> Actually, this experimental, new style of music is practically only prominent in movies from Nolan, Villeneuve, and few other "serious" directors. Whose movies are hand in hand with this kind of music.
> 
> Take a look at the best movies from the past 5 years and I believe that most will have orchestral soundtracks rather than some soundscapes.


Yep, you are right. I checked the last 5 years and most of the top 10 fall in this category.


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## marclawsonmusic (Sep 30, 2021)

Kyle Preston said:


> So I'm not sure an affinity for percussion is anything out of the ordinary. In fact, what's weird is that so much written music still finds an audience (today) _without _an emphasis on rhythm/percussion...


Makes sense. Of course much of pop music is based on rhythm.

What I was saying is I *think* I am hearing more emphasis on percussion in film scoring today than in earlier eras - where melody and 'the tune' seemed to be the focus. But I could be wrong about that. Even the orchestral type scores seem to have driving rhythms.


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## Kent (Sep 30, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> there aren't very many comedies or romantic movies


there aren't (m)any 'mid-budget' films in the first place...but, at least to some degree, TV has risen to fill in that gap.


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## marclawsonmusic (Sep 30, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> See… some of y’all act like these new trends weren’t invented and practiced by Varese, Part, Ligeti, or Glass. There’s building on your predecessors, then there’s lifting their music and packaging it in a Happy Meal box for JJ Abrams.
> 
> I’ve talked about this in other threads, but it isn’t an exciting thing to take an idea from Dolce and Gabbana then copying the vibe and selling it in TJ Maxx.
> 
> ...


@Stephen Limbaugh, please stop derailing my thread. This is what I asked at the beginning:

"I don't want to debate what 'should be' or get nostalgic about the past or get emotional in this thread... I don't want to talk about what we like or don't like - I would simply like to discuss what _is_ today - to identify current trends in film scoring."

I am simply trying to understand what is in the market today - without judgment. If you are not able to comment without interjecting your own negative viewpoint, maybe you should just ignore this thread and move on.


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## marclawsonmusic (Sep 30, 2021)

kmaster said:


> there aren't (m)any 'mid-budget' films in the first place...but, at least to some degree, TV has risen to fill in that gap.


For sure. Especially with all the mini-series.

I brought up Box Office Mojo, but I didn't want to limit the discussion to 'films shown in theaters'. There is a lot of scoring on streaming platforms (obviously) and there are definite trends I've observed there as well.


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## Pier (Sep 30, 2021)

I agree with all the trends you've listed, but I think orchestral music (or at least orchestral inspired music) is still the predominant form of film music.

As an example, look at the Box Office Mojo top list from 2019. From a quick skim I'd say at least a good 70% of those films have mainly orchestral music. I picked that list just as an example.

I think in TV shows there is more variety, leaning more on synths and non orchestral music. That's just my anecdotal impression though. Maybe it's just the stuff I watch.

Another trend you could add to that list is the use of bizarre articulations by composers looking for new timbres from traditional instruments. Flautando, sul ponticello, etc.


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## dcoscina (Sep 30, 2021)

If I never heard a alternating minor third string ostinato again I would be happy.


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## Pier (Sep 30, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> If I never heard a alternating minor third string ostinato again I would be happy.


What about minor seconds?


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## antames (Sep 30, 2021)

I do feel a lack of melody is becoming the trend in this era of music. Composers have sort of become a mixture of electronic music producers, sound designers and orchestral composers. But I also wonder if it is the studios hiring composers that are pushing for this style of music, composers opting for this style due to its prevalence, or a combination of the two? In any case, to break or change a trend, it ultimately needs to come from composers pushing back on or suggesting alternatives to what is currently fashionable.

Anyways, with that all said, I think the music as heard in Tenet is a good example of what's popular in music today.


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## Kent (Sep 30, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> If I never heard a alternating minor third string ostinato again I would be happy.


ah dang, that would rule out one of my favorite cues of all time:


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## dcoscina (Sep 30, 2021)

kmaster said:


> ah dang, that would rule out one of my favorite cues of all time:



not the same thing and you know it.


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## dcoscina (Sep 30, 2021)

Pier said:


> What about minor seconds?


Using Stravinsky-like rhythmic ostinati like Williams did for Jaws is one thing, whereas this craze of repeating a minor third the way Zimmer did in Batman Begins (fine btw when he did it in 2005; not fine that millions of other people have copied it) is entirely another thing. 

Goldsmith also used rhythmic ostinati but would add or subtract beats or change the intervals. These days it’s like a locomotive that is on a track to nowhere. No change in meter, rhythmic division, or texture. Just a repeating figure that doesn’t add any shape or dynamism to the piece it accompanies. And it’s all at 120bpm. 

An excellent example of rhythmic ostinati is Don Davis’ incredibly work on The Matrix series. There are some incredible driving figures but contrasted with advanced harmony and polyrhythms (not to mention colourful orchestrations). So to make it clear- Ostinati aren’t the problem. It’s the people who use them haphazardly which has created this syndrome.


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## Pier (Sep 30, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> Using Stravinsky-like rhythmic ostinati like Williams did for Jaws is one thing, whereas this craze of repeating a minor third the way Zimmer did in Batman Begins (fine btw when he did it in 2005; not fine that millions of other people have copied it) is entirely another thing.
> 
> Goldsmith also used rhythmic ostinati but would add or subtract beats or change the intervals. These days it’s like a locomotive that is on a track to nowhere. No change in meter, rhythmic division, or texture. Just a repeating figure that doesn’t add any shape or dynamism to the piece it accompanies. And it’s all at 120bpm.
> 
> An excellent example of rhythmic ostinati is Don Davis’ incredibly work on The Matrix series. There are some incredible driving figures but contrasted with advanced harmony and polyrhythms (not to mention colourful orchestrations). So to make it clear- Ostinati aren’t the problem. It’s the people who use them haphazardly which has created this syndrome.


I was joking, but thanks for your reply. Very interesting read!


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## José Herring (Sep 30, 2021)

I honestly don't know what you guys are going on about. The hottest franchise in the history of mankind is chalk full o'melodies. I mean none of it too deep but since when has film been deep?


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## darkogav (Oct 1, 2021)

I think the audience drives the music. Not the other way around. Film and TV show score composers make the music that will appeal to the audience that watches it. Those old Hitchcock films and scores were made during the post swing / jazz bebop era. No internet, no cell phones, no social media audience. The slew of netflix action and horror shows are for an audience that never knew a world without internet, games, even social media -- they sure as hell will not click with a score that sounds like it was made for an 80s Merchant ivory production.


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 1, 2021)

Pier said:


> I agree with all the trends you've listed, but I think orchestral music (or at least orchestral inspired music) is still the predominant form of film music.


You make a good point that the orchestra is still a part of many scores, but I would argue that these are mainly hybrid scores.

So I should probably add 'hybrid scoring' to the top of the list. This is still a big part of the 'modern' sound (at least in Hollywood).


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 1, 2021)

antames said:


> I do feel a lack of melody is becoming the trend in this era of music.


I think I addressed this as 'preference for textures' instead of 'lack of melody'. I'm sick of hearing about the death of melody.


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## RonOrchComp (Oct 1, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> Like Elfman? Reznor? Greenwood?


Zimmer


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## RonOrchComp (Oct 1, 2021)

antames said:


> I do feel a lack of melody is becoming the trend in this era of music.


Yep. Unfortunately.


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 1, 2021)

RonOrchComp said:


> Yep. Unfortunately.





RonOrchComp said:


> Zimmer


Thanks for adding literally 0 to the discussion.


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## Kent (Oct 1, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Thanks for adding literally 0 to the discussion.


If this is a recurring frustration, you can:

1.click [any] user name (to the left of a comment/post) 
2. at the bottom of the new window, click 'Ignore'. 

Helps to save bandwidth, both literal and mental!


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 1, 2021)

kmaster said:


> If this is a recurring frustration, you can:
> 
> 1.click [any] user name (to the left of a comment/post)
> 2. at the bottom of the new window, click 'Ignore'.
> ...


Thanks, Kent! I am policing this thread more aggressively than usual because it could easily spiral into chaos. So far, it's been a productive discussion (at least to me) so I am hoping to keep it that way.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 1, 2021)

I think the sky is the limit with musical instrumentation available to us today. In the past, orchestra was used because that was the widest sonic palette of timbres available at the time. Today we have all manner of sampling and synthesis and extremely wide sonic palette. 

Film scoring should not really about trying to craft some musical work, it is about supporting the story according to the vision of the film’s director. From a pure artistic point of view thst is the reason the score exists at all. This could be in the form of classic melody based orchestra or could be droning dissonant synth filters or dreadfully boring and repetitive figures of any kind; according to the feeling the director wants to come out. 

I think these days just about every possible musical treatment is fair game and if the director is getting the emotional story support desired then it is a success. Of course melodic orchestra is still the right thing in certain situations and the wrong thing in other situations and directors have their own opinion that fills a big grey area in between.

In my view there is unfortunately a hard reality about budgets and film producers have sought out electronic scores, percussive groove beds, etc as a means to save money. Lesser skilled composers have done very creative things with a few synths that made the director happy for a fraction of the cost. It remains a debatable point whether in some cases a more traditional melody based orch score would have created something bigger then life and better in some way. Melodic orch scoring has been around for nearly 100 years and there is a tradition in it that I don’t think is going away forever. Bu on the other hand that tradition also brings in many emotional prejudices based on previous works, so many people are trying to go outside the box to avoid that and bring in authentic feeling in a different way.

I have heard robotic ostinato based music that i considered dreadful to listen to, it in a way that also established a dreadful feeling and maybe the director was going for exactly that. I think some films are dabbling with concepts about quantum physics,time space distortions and various forms of nihilism that challenge our romantic notions of the meaning of life. These boring and robotic ostinatos then become a kind of anti-romantic machine-like thing that just pulls our senses into some kind of emotional place devoid of classic romanticism. And that may be the point. 

I abhor with a capital A, the idea that music should follow current trends because that puts the music before the storytelling. I also am sad to see melodic scoring go away because after all i am a hopeless romantic.


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## Karl Feuerstake (Oct 1, 2021)

I'm hearing in some media a shift towards smaller string ensembles, even just solo strings, paired with effects and synths. I am thinking of Sicario, Joker, Underwater, Dunkirk, Call of Duty Modern Warfare (2019 VG); these scores lay less emphasis on brass and woodwind (not to say there is none.)


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 1, 2021)

In my view that trend is a budgetary decision


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## Alex Niedt (Oct 1, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> But it seems the industry is more interested in storytelling ability than musical prowess. Chernobyl was very effective scoring, even if it wasn't musical in a traditional sense.


At a certain point, there's only so much storytelling you can do when you either barely use actual notes at all or you use the same 2-3 chord progressions in every single track you make. Film music is often little more than a four-chord pop instrumental arranged with orchestral sample libraries at this point. Of course that's fine sometimes, but I'd love to hear some semblance of a wider harmonic palette once in a while.


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## Karl Feuerstake (Oct 1, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> In my view that trend is a budgetary decision



That's possible, it does lend itself a distinctive sound nonetheless


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## b_elliott (Oct 1, 2021)

This is clearly dating myself plus it is recommended one treat it as a comment from the peanut gallery:

The first time I felt music came alive in a movie/play was Jesus Christ Superstar. What had been a dead genre (religious music -- at least to my teeny-bopper ears) suddenly came alive. The movie was cool; the music was bigger than the the movie as I regularly heard its songs on the local radio; Friday nights the whole LP was played on radio. "Hair" would have been the other example as bands (schools and pro) played charts from both productions.

It's certainly no desert scene now; however, the patient could stand some defibrillation: an Andrew-Llyod-Weber young gun to inject such interest into the film industry so its music spills outwards to the youth-teen-average_Joe listening worlds.

Happened before--it'll happen again.


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## handz (Oct 1, 2021)

Video killed the Radio Star
And for a while, it seemed that Zimmer killed the Orchestra sound. 

But I think that orchestra will survive in movie music, same as classical music itself is still here with us, it is part of our culture.

The lack of melody or if you want, preference of textures is here longer than I would think it will. I really don't like this movement - some of the stuff is cool, but I would be happy if the time invested into these scores would be used to make some cool standalone music where such an approach would be way more suited and could go even further with all the experiments. 

For me, nothing beats good melodies or good dramatic writing for an orchestra (with occasional nontraditional instrument or synth). I like some synth-driven "80s" inspired scores for the movies which are from a certain era or a very retro sci-fi inspired. But for most parts - I think orchestras do way more for the overall impact of the movie than these soundscapes. Unless you really are into a very specific kind of filmography. And I really don't like this kind of film either. Heck, Lynch, one of the most crazy directors who got really big popularity among "regular" people used orchestra in practically all of his movies, and it worked like a charm. It would work even in Nolan's films, but he decided for soundscapes. In the end it works. And well, we are not normal people, we are soundtrack freaks, we care for music in film, people care about the film as a whole.


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 1, 2021)

Karl Feuerstake said:


> I'm hearing in some media a shift towards smaller string ensembles, even just solo strings, paired with effects and synths. I am thinking of Sicario, Joker, Underwater, Dunkirk, Call of Duty Modern Warfare (2019 VG); these scores lay less emphasis on brass and woodwind (not to say there is none.)


Good observation!


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 1, 2021)

Alex Niedt said:


> At a certain point, there's only so much storytelling you can do when you either barely use actual notes at all or you use the same 2-3 chord progressions in every single track you make. Film music is often little more than a four-chord pop instrumental arranged with orchestral sample libraries at this point. Of course that's fine sometimes, but I'd love to hear some semblance of a wider harmonic palette once in a while.


I understand. And I agree, but it doesn't really matter what we think, does it? There is a whole industry out there making movies and if you want to be part of it, you have to understand the economics of the thing.

In terms of 2-3 chord progressions and simple writing, these limitations can also be a challenge - a creative 'box' out of which you have to get a much mileage as possible. So maybe the key is to look at it almost like a puzzle - instead of complaining that you can't use every tool in your toolbelt, see how far you can get with just a hammer.

For my part, I am trying to understand the trends so I can figure out where I fit. I've spent so much time trying to learn orchestral music... but the demand is just not there right now for a Williams/Goldsmith/Horner/Silvestri orch-fest. It's passé. So the next question is... what are people actually making now? What kind of music is actually making it into finished films? That's why I made this thread.


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 1, 2021)

b_elliott said:


> This is clearly dating myself plus it is recommended one treat it as a comment from the peanut gallery:


I think this is why we (as a group) tend to get so passionate when discussing film music. At some point in our lives, this kind of music touched us, so we really care about it and where it's headed.


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## mscp (Oct 1, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> "The world is changed. I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air. Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it."
> 
> We have discussed ad nauseum the ways film scoring has changed. I don't want to debate what 'should be' or get nostalgic about the past or get emotional in this thread... I don't want to talk about what we like or don't like - I would simply like to discuss _what is _today - to identify current trends in film scoring. Feel free to share examples as you see fit, or contradict me if you feel my observations are incorrect. Please be polite!
> 
> ...



It really depends on the kind of film scoring, but based on what I believe you're referring to, here's my 2 cents: 

It's quite clear to me that the trend is based on distorted (dystopian), often aggressive rhythmic elements (both total and atonal). I left the the instruments and techniques used behind because instrumentation and tonality are only the means to an end, and can be crafted in a variety of ways, unless what you're asking to reflect on is the trends in tools/techniques used to achieve those.


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## dcoscina (Oct 1, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> I think this is why we (as a group) tend to get so passionate when discussing film music. At some point in our lives, this kind of music touched us, so we really care about it and where it's headed.


Nailed it.


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## Alex Niedt (Oct 1, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> instead of complaining that you can't use every tool in your toolbelt, see how far you can get with just a hammer.


I'm commenting as a music and film fan, not someone trying to get music into films. As a viewer/listener, I feel like no one's getting very far with the same hammer everyone else is using. I literally can't tell 98% of film composers apart at this point, and I actually find the paint-by-numbers clichés distracting. Pretty sure you could cut-and-paste tracks from one composer to the next into certain films without anyone knowing the difference. So I'd love to hear a trend in going against the grain rather than everyone trying to figure out how to sound like what's currently in fashion (totally aware that's not going to happen and the general public doesn't care either way).


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## I like music (Oct 1, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> but the demand is just not there right now for a Williams/Goldsmith/Horner/Silvestri orch-fest.


I think the audiences would accept the orch-fests. After all, they accept them enough in big budget films + we mustn't forget that a lot of streaming services easily allow us to watch older movies.

So I think even a younger audience is attuned enough to the traditional silver age type of stuff. I feel (though this is purely an anecdotal, outsider's view) that budgets (shift towards quicker/easier to produce music with tech?) has driven the new trend, not audience demand.

Maybe that's what you meant by demand e.g. producers, directors etc

Or maybe it is just wishful thinking on my part that another Goldsmith will pop right up in the next few years (another hopeless romantic here)


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## I like music (Oct 1, 2021)

btw one thing I personally believe ... that the music _should_ stand out. It should of course serve the film, but it should be damn noticeable!


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 1, 2021)

mscp said:


> It really depends on the kind of film scoring, but based on what I believe you're referring to, here's my 2 cents:
> 
> It's quite clear to me that the trend is based on distorted (dystopian), often aggressive rhythmic elements (both total and atonal). I left the the instruments and techniques used behind because instrumentation and tonality are only the means to an end, and can be crafted in a variety of ways, unless what you're asking to reflect on is the trends in tools/techniques used to achieve those.


Very insightful - the dystopian / aggressive observation - those emotions... It really does make sense in a lot of cases.

Then there's this:


Which isn't really textural or dystopian or aggressive, but it does make use of synths and is fairly rhythmic / percussive. 

This is probably the most popular TV / streaming show in the past couple years, so for sure it's considered 'modern' and 'fresh'. So, analytically, I'm trying to figure out 'why'. 

I hear some synths, very basic harmony, a pulsing drum rhythm, and eventually the orchestra, which is presented in typical hybrid fashion. Maybe on a show like this, they are trying to reach two different crowds - younger people, who might be drawn in by the first part - and then the older folks who might get pulled in by the orchestra?

Or maybe all this analysis doesn't matter and we should be focusing more on how Ludwig got the gig - and just accept this as his aesthetic. That's probably closer to reality.


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## I like music (Oct 1, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Very insightful - the dystopian / aggressive observation - those emotions... It really does make sense in a lot of cases.
> 
> Then there's this:
> 
> ...



First time I heard The Mandalorian, I was borderline repulsed.
Now? I absolutely love it...

I won't even try to analyse why, because I don't know. Maybe because there is that recognisable and 'definite' melody (whatever that means). And enough orchestra to satisfy that itch.


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## mscp (Oct 1, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Very insightful - the dystopian / aggressive observation - those emotions... It really does make sense in a lot of cases.
> 
> Then there's this:
> 
> ...



Oh, but this is quite offbeat I believe...not really a trend, is it? I don't know. I don't watch TV much.

Would you kindly have a few other references that match something like the clip you shared? I'd love to watch them to try to analyse.



marclawsonmusic said:


> Or maybe all this analysis doesn't matter and we should be focusing more on how Ludwig got the gig - and just accept this as his aesthetic. That's probably closer to reality.


Oh, it does matter! A lot! Following a crowd makes sense in the economics side of things, but doesn't bring anything to the evolution of a craft, which often is one of the detrimental aspects of an industry.


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## Faruh Al-Baghdadi (Oct 1, 2021)

The main trend is total, absolute death of theming.

When was the last time you've heard a theme in OST as good as Robocop, Terminator, Star Wars and so on? These soundtracks have an amazing core(a theme) and an outstanding, unique and, what's equally important, full development. Just listen to Robocop main theme. It's just 3-4 minutes, but it has everything - an intro and outro, easily distinguished themes(a few of them in this short piece!), good variations, preparations for every section and finally beautiful orchestration.

I don't know why it's happening/happened, but I deeply, deeply, deeply hate it.

All these trends you've noticed can be put into a "Throwing dust in the eyes" category. It seems like actual composing was taken out of the process of... Composing. The only guess I can come up with is deadlines that are too short at this point. To create a theme and to develop it you need time, you need to literally grow it in your brain, to learn it and change-change-change until it's good enough for final record. What's even more interesting is that back then people didn't have DAWs and libraries, which means it was muuuuuch harder to compose,to make try-outs. Maybe it's one of the reasons why? People were doing what they were supposed to - combining noted and instruments instead of endless messing with millions of libraries and VSTs, templates and tutorials? 😄


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## Kent (Oct 1, 2021)

Faruh Al-Baghdadi said:


> The main trend is total, absolute death of theming.


Interesting take. Have any data to back this up?


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## Faruh Al-Baghdadi (Oct 1, 2021)

kmaster said:


> Interesting take. Have any data to back this up?


I need to ask my Analysis and Infographics Department.


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 1, 2021)

Faruh Al-Baghdadi said:


> I need to ask my Analysis and Inphographics Department.


Sarcasm acknowledged, but the 'total, absolute death of theming' is a debatable topic and really belongs in its own thread. Please start your own.


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 1, 2021)

mscp said:


> Would you kindly have a few other references that match something like the clip you shared? I'd love to watch them to try to analyse.


I've got nothing, sadly. I've been in the woodshed the past few years trying to figure out samples and orchestration. I heard everyone loves this new Star Wars spinoff and decided to check it out this afternoon. First time I heard it!


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## Faruh Al-Baghdadi (Oct 1, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Sarcasm acknowledged, but the 'total, absolute death of theming' is a debatable topic and really belongs in its own thread. Please start your own.





> _...I would simply like to discuss what is today - to identify current trends in film scoring. Feel free to share examples as you see fit, or contradict me if you feel my observations are incorrect. Please be polite!_


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## Karl Feuerstake (Oct 1, 2021)

Faruh Al-Baghdadi said:


>



Perhaps you can define what a "theme" is if you really think 'death of themes' is an observable trend?


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 1, 2021)

Strike two.

You are not discussing what _is _today in objective terms. You are discussing _your own opinion_ on what you feel was once there and now is not. That is subjective.

Please start your own thread to address this topic. (it's a good one)


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## Faruh Al-Baghdadi (Oct 1, 2021)

I think it was very obvious from my first comment what I meant how it is related to the thread. 

It was in the first sentence of the comment. I also described why it's a source of many other "sub-trends". 
So, "themlessness" is your "present trend". The rest in that comment of mine.


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 1, 2021)

Faruh Al-Baghdadi said:


> So, "themlessness" is your "present trend". The rest in that comment of mine.


Thanks again for sharing your opinion!


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## AudioLoco (Oct 2, 2021)

The tendency for lack of themes, the general tendency to avoid orchestral sound, the taking over of synths, drones, filtered rythmical arpeggios, the general total lack of other acoustic instrumentation...

Sounds familiar...
It is simply an extension of 90% of modern pop/current music without the auto tune and 4 on the floor.

Soundtracks are just offspring of their historical epoch and musical culture. Love it or hate it.

I'm leaving my personal opinions aside here for this observation, I think this is factual, even though just a tendency...

....As for my personal taste, it sometimes sounds great and fresh and sometimes it sounds boring repetitive and banal - but also in general film orchestral music can sound tired and inexpressive, even one by great composers... Oh it can... Let's not be too idealizing about that: "orchestra good synth bad"...

(So these days that's why my ears go up like dog ears hearing the owner coming home when I notice a cool rare "old style" soundtracks - like the recent "The Flight Attendant")


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## Henu (Oct 2, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Williams/Goldsmith/Horner/Silvestri orch-fest


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## handz (Oct 2, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Very insightful - the dystopian / aggressive observation - those emotions... It really does make sense in a lot of cases.
> 
> Then there's this:
> 
> ...



Only parts I really remember are the "flutes" on the beginning and then the full blast orchestral theme All the synthy nonorchestral parts are just a fill, if the score would be just orchestra + some ethnic winds + western guitar it would be better music IMO. But the current "fashion" dictates synths and overuse of percussions so composers have to deliver.


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## handz (Oct 2, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> Sounds familiar...
> It is simply an extension of 90% of modern pop/current music without the auto tune and 4 on the floor.
> 
> Soundtracks are just offspring of their historical epoch and musical culture. Love it or hate it.


Yeah, it can be seen as an extension of the horrible state the popular music industry is at currently.
But, I do not think that in the 80 or 90s romantic era music would have so much connection to the musical culture of that era. It would work even now. But that is the problem, producers want something "trendy". This is weird as with movies they do exact opposite (tons of remakes, reboots or continuations of 80/90s franchises)


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## Kent (Oct 2, 2021)

handz said:


> Only parts I really remember are the "flutes" on the beginning and then the full blast orchestral theme All the synthy nonorchestral parts are just a fill, if the score would be just orchestra + some ethnic winds + western guitar it would be better music IMO. But the current "fashion" dictates synths and overuse of percussions so composers have to deliver.


I’m not following your use of the quotation mark. As I understand things, recorders are flutes, and fashion is fashion. Can you elaborate?


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## handz (Oct 2, 2021)

kmaster said:


> I’m not following your use of the quotation mark. As I understand things, recorders are flutes, and fashion is fashion. Can you elaborate?


I think it is quite clear - I do not know what exact kind of flute-like sounding instrument was used, therefore I referred to it as "flutes".


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## AllanH (Oct 2, 2021)

I think a big part of the change is the music and FX today is expected to fully support the Director's vision and only stand on its own if it happens to do so.

As an example, Hans Zimmer can clearly write memorable melodic material (e.g. Gladiator) but will do whatever is needed to support the Director's vision (e.g. Dunkirk, Blade runner, and Dune). It may not be melodic, but can be very effective. I think e.g. Dunkirk is incredible in how much tension the score adds. To me, it's at least as effective as William's majestic score for Saving private Ryan.


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## mscp (Oct 2, 2021)

Faruh Al-Baghdadi said:


> The main trend is total, absolute death of theming.


Far from becoming extinct. Use of themes is still all over the place.



Faruh Al-Baghdadi said:


> When was the last time you've heard a theme in OST as good as Robocop, Terminator, Star Wars and so on? These soundtracks have an amazing core(a theme) and an outstanding, unique and, what's equally important, full development. Just listen to Robocop main theme. It's just 3-4 minutes, but it has everything - an intro and outro, easily distinguished themes(a few of them in this short piece!), good variations, preparations for every section and finally beautiful orchestration.



There are quite a few. What you're probably trying to reach for is 'epic' or memorable themes according to taste. To keep it short, I'll mention one per decade.

2000 - Harry Potter
2010 - Alice in Wonderland
2020 - The Willoughbys


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## Faruh Al-Baghdadi (Oct 2, 2021)

mscp said:


> Far from becoming extinct. Use of themes is still all over the place.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## jbuhler (Oct 2, 2021)

And some of us know that Max Steiner earned his reputation, at least in Aaron Copland’s estimation, by writing effective neutral underscore. “Neutral” in this sense is music that sounds “normal” but that is without distinctive motives and themes to shape it and draw audience’s attention away from the dialogue and action. Athematic film scoring has a long history, and it’s not like Zimmer and those who compose in his style can’t turn out a good tune when they want to. And Steiner could too, having come to Hollywood through the Broadway theater of the 1920s.


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## Faruh Al-Baghdadi (Oct 2, 2021)

AllanH said:


> I think a big part of the change is the music and FX today is expected to fully support the Director's vision and only stand on its own if it happens to do so.
> 
> As an example, Hans Zimmer can clearly write memorable melodic material (e.g. Gladiator) but will do whatever is needed to support the Director's vision (e.g. Dunkirk, Blade runner, and Dune). It may not be melodic, but can be very effective. I think e.g. Dunkirk is incredible in how much tension the score adds. To me, it's at least as effective as William's majestic score for Saving private Ryan.


This is a great point and I'm glad you brought up Blade Runner. Indeed, sometimes a well defined, distinguishable and memorable melody is not a first necessity, sometimes it would be much better to focus on a sound palette and use very simple motifes(and there's a bunch of small, lovely themes in original Blade Runner OST, but it's not that "in your face" type of themes(like Robocop or Terminator, for example). But there's a common theme, character in the Vangelis' music for the movie. If you listen to a few notes, a few sounds, it'll trigger a plethora of memories about the movie - scenes, characters, things, feelings and so on. This is what soundtracks supposed to be - it's a part of the story line, of movie's aesthetic, something that finish the image.

I would mention another case - when the movie\game needs something very neutral, when neutrality is the objective, the character you're after. But let's be honest - it's just one of many-many possible characters, not a style. And it's rarity when you need such natural sound.

And don't get me wrong, I'm trying to paint myself as something special or better. I'm doing this myself due to deadlines and other reasons and I hate it. But there's a problem, and asking for trends(looking for patterns, recipes, references, attempting to rationalize the process) is a symptom of that problem.


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## Karl Feuerstake (Oct 2, 2021)

Faruh Al-Baghdadi said:


> And don't get me wrong, I'm trying to paint myself as something special or better. I'm doing this myself due to deadlines and other reasons and I hate it. But there's a problem, and asking for trends(looking for patterns, recipes, references, attempting to rationalize the process) is a symptom of that problem.


I think you are wrong. There is no 'problem' except that which you make in your own mind. Instead I can immediately see at least two important reasons as to why discussing current trends is a good idea, and they were actually already stated by the OP.

The first is that having an idea of what the current trends are, and what the current market is, gives you as a business owner a better picture of what is to be expected of your product. Are you able to meet the industry standard?

The second is that, let us suppose you do meet certain practical standards which are common in said current market, having an idea of the trends then lets you differentiate yourself. However you must know what kind of things are common so that you can better appreciate this, or even expand upon it deliberately, with a strategic and/or artistic mindset.

Arguing about nostalgia, the past, and past trends is less relevant if one is trying to keep their business alive and fresh in the market of today (logically, because it concerns yesterday.) That is not to say it has no place of value at all, but as the OP expressed, that is not his interest.


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## Kent (Oct 2, 2021)

It bears repeating:






Little piece of wisdom from J. Michael Straczynski







vi-control.net


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## Faruh Al-Baghdadi (Oct 3, 2021)

kmaster said:


> It bears repeating:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What it has to do with music? Unfortunately, these days stories are written based upon marketing researches(btw, Terminator was considered as "madness" from marketing standpoint and as a huge risk back then); fortunately it has nothing to do with music. 

Also, there's no "wisdom" in cynicism.


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 3, 2021)

Back to topic, this won an Emmy very recently:



It seems to follow some of the trends I mentioned:

Synths: there is a really nice bed of synth goodness under the orchestral colors
Integration of natural FX: The chimp (?) cry at the end
Percussive: there are percussive effects literally all over the place - gated synths, tempo-synched strums, processed and filtered violin ostinati, other synthy stuff. Oh, and actual percussion.
The industry still appears to be in love with cello too.

Overall, gorgeous playing and a nice theme to boot. I should also add that the production is top notch. I could literally fall into that track, it has so much depth.


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## Pier (Oct 3, 2021)

handz said:


> But the current "fashion" dictates synths and overuse of percussions so composers have to deliver.


No offense, but that seems like confirmation bias.

Take any list of movies released in the past years and check how many of the scores fall into what you call the "current fashion".

For example the 2019 top Box Office Mojo. (since 2020 wasn't all that great for movies because of the pandemic). From the top 10, maybe Joker falls into that category since there's a lot of percussion but I think they didn't use any synth.


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## Kent (Oct 3, 2021)

Faruh Al-Baghdadi said:


> What it has to do with music?


I am not going to answer this for you—it’s a sort of a koan, or perhaps a shibboleth—but I can tell you it has absolutely _nothing_ to do with marketing.


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## darkogav (Oct 3, 2021)

Pier said:


> No offense, but that seems like confirmation bias.
> 
> Take any list of movies released in the past years and check how many of the scores fall into what you call the "current fashion".
> 
> For example the 2019 top Box Office Mojo. (since 2020 wasn't all that great for movies because of the pandemic). From the top 10, maybe Joker falls into that category since there's a lot of percussion but I think they didn't use any synth.


that source does not tell you much. that is 10% of film releases. I guess 1,000 films get released every year. They all have audio and a soundtrack.









Many, Many Hands: The State of Independent Film, 2019 - Cultural Daily


This year it is harder than ever to calibrate the state of independent film. But Adam Leipzig does it anyway.




www.culturaldaily.com













U.S. & Canada: movie releases per year 2021 | Statista


In 2021, a total of 403 movies were released in the United States and Canada, up from 334 in the previous year – an annual increase of over 20 percent.




www.statista.com


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## Pier (Oct 3, 2021)

darkogav said:


> that source does not tell you much. that is 10% of film releases. I guess 1,000 films get released every year. They all have audio and a soundtrack.


Obviously, it was just an example.


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## Kent (Oct 3, 2021)

Faruh Al-Baghdadi said:


> What it has to do with music? Unfortunately, these days stories are written based upon marketing researches(btw, Terminator was considered as "madness" from marketing standpoint and as a huge risk back then); fortunately it has nothing to do with music.
> 
> Also, there's no "wisdom" in cynicism.


And I don’t know with what knowledge you’re coming at this, but JMS is not at all a cynic. The context is included in the image, as he is replying to a tweet which asks him—creator/writer/showrunner of one of the greatest auteur-driven science fiction shows of all time, and soon again to start a reimagination of it—how he likes to receive pitches.


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## synergy543 (Oct 3, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> If I never heard a alternating minor third string ostinato again I would be happy.


Yee gads! 

No Prokoviev Sym 5, Mv 2 any more? Seriously dude? 

minor thirds and tasteful music need not be mutually exclusive!


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## dcoscina (Oct 4, 2021)

synergy543 said:


> Yee gads!
> 
> No Prokoviev Sym 5, Mv 2 any more? Seriously dude?
> 
> minor thirds and tasteful music need not be mutually exclusive!



You missed my follow up post clarifying my initial statement about the use of ostinati…..


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## G_Erland (Oct 4, 2021)

Could it be an interesting part of this thread to hold less «trendy» soundtracks up against those that exhibit the visible trends? Not bad/good, but to allow more nuance? I thought about the «invicible man» ost, for example, which has many of the things here discussed, but, as i see it, weighs things in a way that you might not hear it as particularly concerned with trends…


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## darkogav (Oct 4, 2021)

I think a bigger problem in film scoring is predictability. There is not much in the area of people forcing an audience to change their understanding of what is musical accompaniment to film. Sort of a continuation of what Zimmer did 10+ years ago on Inception. 

There used to be artists that push and force a listener to re-evaluate their understanding of what is music and what is acceptable structure in music. There isn't enough people trying to do the same thing today with the slew of tools at their disposal. Too afraid to challenge an audience.


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## Pier (Oct 4, 2021)

darkogav said:


> There used to be artists that push and force a listener to re-evaluate their understanding of what is music and what is acceptable structure in music. There isn't enough people trying to do the same thing today with the slew of tools at their disposal. Too afraid to challenge an audience.


Directors and producers are probably to blame. It's their films after all.


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## darkogav (Oct 4, 2021)

Pier said:


> Directors and producers are probably to blame. It's their films after all.


The last truly interesing score was Zimmer's Inception, which is now over 10 years old! The "Marvelization" and "Epicization" of film and TV music is on par with the originality of the Boston Pops. Need new blood to inject new life into entertainment.


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## Pier (Oct 4, 2021)

darkogav said:


> The last truly interesing score was Zimmer's Inception, which is now over 10 years old! The "Marvelization" and "Epicization" of film and TV music is on par with the originality of the Boston Pops. Need new blood to inject new life into entertainment.


Like in everything, there will always be a status quo and people that try to disrupt it. Some of these become new major trends. Rince and repeat.

Since Inception I've enjoyed other stuff like Blade Runner 2049, Tenet, and also the stuff from Johann Johannssonn and Hildur Guðnadóttir:

- Sicario
- Joker
- Chernobyl
- The Revenant (by Sakamoto and Alva Noto but Hildur played the cello)

In the end it all revolves around the work of great directors like Nolan, Villeneuve, Iñarritu, etc.

Have you listened to Dune? I haven't in detail, but from what little I've heard (to avoid spoiling the film) I think it's going to be the best Zimmer has ever made.


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## G_Erland (Oct 4, 2021)

darkogav said:


> The last truly interesing score was Zimmer's Inception, which is now over 10 years old! The "Marvelization" and "Epicization" of film and TV music is on par with the originality of the Boston Pops. Need new blood to inject new life into entertainment.


Im not sure that can be true, if im to offer my opinion. And, please qualify your arguments, id like to hear why «interesting» - im sure you see the redundancy in a long list of myopic statements without context. Why would 10 years be concidered a long time, for example?


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## darkogav (Oct 4, 2021)

Pier said:


> Like in everything, there will always be a status quo and people that try to disrupt it. Some of these become new major trends. Rince and repeat.
> 
> Since Inception I've enjoyed other stuff like Blade Runner 2049, Tenet, and also the stuff from Johann Johannssonn and Hildur Guðnadóttir:
> 
> ...


Yes. i listened to the new Dune OST. I didn't find it particularly original. Sort of revisiting territory that has already been trodden. I agree. A lot does depend on the film maker and what they want to do.


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## cmillar (Oct 4, 2021)

One big reason for an overall decline in musical quality in any media...

...most music-editors, 'music-scouts', and many producers are all in their 20's or 30's.

They've grown up for the most part hearing some pretty lame, uncreative music; especially in the realm of pop music, which for better or worse, rules the global music scene.

They may be a few exceptions, but you have to call it like it is.


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## darkogav (Oct 4, 2021)

cmillar said:


> One big reason for an overall decline in musical quality in any media...
> 
> ...most music-editors, 'music-scouts', and many producers are all in their 20's or 30's.
> 
> ...


I don't know if the claim that most are in their 20s and 30s is accurate. Also, quality I usually don't like to use to quantify music or art. Quality is subjective. My issue is lack of risk taking in an environment that allows for risks to be taken.Most of the music that has out lasted trends and fashions and continues to entice argument is music made by people that challenged an audience. The difference is, those composers lived at a time where experimentation was encouraged. They could have very easily just chosen to make Broadway tunes but Steve Reich's trumps "Hello Dolly" which has been long forgotten.


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## PedroPH (Oct 4, 2021)

synergy543 said:


> Yee gads!
> 
> No Prokoviev Sym 5, Mv 2 any more? Seriously dude?
> 
> minor thirds and tasteful music need not be mutually exclusive!



That symphony is one of my favorites.


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## Pier (Oct 4, 2021)

cmillar said:


> They've grown up for the most part hearing some pretty lame, uncreative music; especially in the realm of pop music, which for better or worse, rules the global music scene.


Hasn't this been always the case?


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## NoamL (Oct 5, 2021)

5 pages about *"film music ain't what it used to be, no melodies, no themes" *eh?

I get a little impatient at people bemoaning "the current state of film music" and nobody talks about Henry Jackman, John Powell, Joel McNeely, Harry & Rupert Gregson Williams, Alexandre Desplat...

Each of those guys is a real "composer's composer" who could be writing concert music and just happen to be doing film. You can instantly tell how much they have studied the masters outside film music & adapted their advanced harmonic techniques.

If you want "big themes" - look no further!



And after familiarizing yourself with the themes - check out the *reharmonizations* here!!! Chilling!



Literate harmony and literate orchestration never died. The orchestra never died.

What happened is that the borders of this style got pushed back, from "something like 70% of all movies" in the mid 1990s, back to *children's animation* and the *4 quadrant* *family adventure* film.

In other words How To Train Your Dragon and Jumanji. Because those films are the most conservative and universalist in their aesthetic. This is a good thing... it made room for other approaches...

I don't have any curiosity to hear John Williams's version of _TENET_, or _Inception_ or _Skyfall _or _Gravity_ or _Joker_ or_ SAW_ or _The Social Network_ or _John Wick_ or even _Midsommar_.

[okay... I'm a _little_ curious what JW's _Midsommar_ would sound like  ]

Overall the developments of the past 20 years are very positive. The conservative style of complex & nuanced tonality is alive and well, and other approaches are alive and well.

"The homogeneity is undeniable"? Film music has never been more creative & varied than today.

I think the open question now is whether the borders of the conservative style are now fixed or whether we hit one end of the pendulum swing and we're heading back a bit. Whether we will for instance see more adult-oriented action movies that start to sound more orchestral and less hybrid, while really-out-there genres like scifi remain unique soundworlds.

I think there is room for directors to rediscover what the conservative style can do for films of more varied genres. But whether or not that happens depends on a circumstance which is out of our hands as composers: how these movies are written and edited. And in between how they are directed too, I guess, but the balance of music vs dialogue & editing is key... It is interesting to compare *Skyfall* and _*Inception* _as an example... The story of Inception is told with 12,000 words of dialogue. Skyfall has the same runtime and uses under 6,500 words...


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## JohnG (Oct 6, 2021)

I agree with @NoamL

There’s a lot of diversity, plenty of themes and orchestra, and plenty of creativity blending sounds and orchestra.

*So Much Music *

Nobody’s mentioned the huge number of minutes expected today in Western scores. The much-beloved “Out of Africa “ score has what? 40 minutes of music? 50 maybe? Today movies routinely have 70 minutes or more of score.

*So Much Noise *

And (again in Western films) the non-stop clutter of dialogue, wild lines, and source cues is I think the inevitable result of generating content for an ADHD audience that studios apparently think requires unbroken torrents of dopamine. Movies and shows packed with so much bric-a-brac force acres of innocuous, unintrusive background slush from the composers.

*Art and Commerce*

So part of our challenge now is meeting that environment with music that’s NOT just a warmed over mimic of some other composer. Apropos those carping at “dumbed down scoring,” complaints about Hans’ devices really ought to target his feeble imitators who copy and paste only the most superficial attributes of his scores. The Batman trilogy actually is almost never repetitious — it’s constantly evolving, morphing, weaving. It’s the ten thousand aping him whose work misses what’s really going on with him (and, in the case of Batman, James Newton Howard).

If you want art, find a director and a studio that aims for art. Failing that, we have to try a little harder to be original, sometimes under the radar.


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## davidson (Oct 6, 2021)

darkogav said:


> The last truly interesing score was Zimmer's Inception, which is now over 10 years old! The "Marvelization" and "Epicization" of film and TV music is on par with the originality of the Boston Pops. Need new blood to inject new life into entertainment.


Midsommar, King Arthur: legend of the sword, it follows, oblivion, the martian...there are still great soundtracks being released.


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