# Starting orchestra sample library



## Pawl (Nov 25, 2017)

Hello all VIControllers!

I'm looking for an orchestra sample library. I'd like it to have separate instrument groups, like violins, violas, etc., not only ensembles, like high strings, low strings. Also solo string would be good to have. I'd prefer dry sound or switchable mic positions. 
I don't have much experience in arranging orchestral instruments, so it would be for try now but I might at some point get to mobile game or video presentation music. Would like to spend about 150-250€. 

On my mind now is Complete Orchestral Collection by Peter Siedlaczek, it's now 132€ in BestService. Demos on BestService page sounds good, but big part of this sound is probably great arrangement and mixing. I wodner how it would sound with close mics or solo string quartet arrangement.
Others I know at that price range could be Miroslav Phillharmoik 2, Garritan Personal Ochestra 5, UVI Orchestral. But they doesn't sound too realistic.

Other options I considered:
EWQL stuff silver or gold, but they doesn't have close mic position. Diamond or Platinum has mic positions, but they're out of price range.
Get strings only first, like Cinematic Studio Strings, and then Solo strings and other orchestra instruments later if needed.
Or something with ensemble patches, like CineSymphony Lite. Could string ensembles be arranged that it would sound like it is 1st violins, 2nd violins, etc? 
There's also Kirk Hunter Virtuoso Ensemble, which is more modern than COCPS, but there is something in the strings sound, that didn't convince me to it, like maybe specific room ambience.

But having COCPS whole orchestra and solos, with mic positions and all stuff at this price is tempting.
Would You consider COCPS sounding good enough for demo works or not exposed orchestral parts? Would that be a good option?

tl;dr
Is there any full orchestra with single instrument patches (not ensembles only), with dry sound, for learning purposes, maybe making some demo or simple commercial works not demanding too realistic sound. Is there something at price range about 150-250€?

Pawl


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## Ihnoc (Nov 25, 2017)

I started with Kontakt and it's factory library. A lot of the orchestral patches are the same as what you would find in the VSL Special Edition. You will find many libraries are hosted in Kontakt, and the factory gives you a selection of other great samples. They can be extended with the SIPS scripts. I would recommend the VSL Special Edition itself as well.


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## ism (Nov 25, 2017)

Some of the first things to figure out:

- Do you have Kontakt? If so, this opens up a lot of possibilities to piece together some top quality libraries a la carte.

- Do you want to start with writing something very epic right away, or are you open to starting smaller and building up? 

- Are you content to start with mock ups, ie that don't need to sound realistic in the first instance so long as the give you enough of an idea of what the composition would sound like with proper instruments. Or would you like to compose of instruments that happen to be virtual - ie that need to sound in their own right?

- Do you like to like to compose via improvisation (with in my book requires virtual instrument that are good enough to work as proper instruments as opposed to merely adequately approximate proper instruments for the purposes of a mock up)? I feel this is particularly important to understand when you consider solo instruments.

- Do you plan to really formally study composition and orchestration, or (equally validly) to you plan to compose more intuitively on the keyboard?

- How much do you hate dongles?

- Why do want separate sections (Va, Vl etc)? Is it because you want to do 4-part voice leading, or is this something that you really need?

Lots of great stuff out there, some if not even all that expensive. But very easy (in my experience) to buy the wrong stuff for where you are as a composer at a particular moment.


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## Dominik Raab (Nov 25, 2017)

You mentioned EastWest in your opening post. Not trying to sell you anything here, just a thought: are you aware of the ComposerCloud subscription service? Composer Cloud X (one year, has close mics in addition to standard Gold version mics) is currently 19.99 a month. For the whole year, that's just slightly over your upper limit and includes more than just orchestral stuff.


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## robgb (Nov 25, 2017)

You can pick up East West Hollywood Orchestra Silver for about $150 right now through Best Service and it will probably serve you well for a starter orchestra.


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## Sami (Nov 25, 2017)

CineSymphony Lite. The percussion is so good I use it in production mockups sometimes.
If you’re entitled to edu, itˋs a steal. No reason to not own it.


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## Bear Market (Nov 25, 2017)

Pawl said:


> Or something with ensemble patches, like CineSymphony Lite. Could string ensembles be arranged that it would sound like it is 1st violins, 2nd violins, etc?



If I'm not mistaken, CineSymphony Lite allows you to determine the "crossover" notes between the different string sections, so you can perform the sections individually albeit from the same patch. I believe Daniel James did an in depth video on this library where he went over this specifically, check his channels for more info if you're interested.


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## Sami (Nov 25, 2017)

Bear Market said:


> If I'm not mistaken, CineSymphony Lite allows you to determine the "crossover" notes between the different string sections, so you can perform the sections individually albeit from the same patch. I believe Daniel James did an in depth video on this library where he went over this specifically, check his channels for more info if you're interested.



You can determine the crossover points and you can automate them via CC, I find this quite practical and fun to use creatively


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## Pawl (Nov 25, 2017)

Thank You all for suggestions and additional questions.
I don't have Kontakt. I'd rather go with smaller ensembles and writing for specific instruments for now. E.g. to arrange some chamber or quartet with ambient-ish music with some guitar and electronics. I'd rather start composing with improvisation and then rearrange parts to sound naturally for instrument.
I got classical music background, but not in composition or arrangement.
No dongles so far, I'd prefer it to stay like this. Unless there is some great option.
Honestly I'm not sure if I really need separate instrument groups. But I feel like it's more right for what I could do.
Maybe I could go with strings for now, but if there would be whole orchestra, I'd surely try to create something and develop more skills if it will work for me. And then get more realistic sounding libs if by chance any earnings comes with it.

My thoughts was on Peter Siedlaczek Collection because it has it all. But later I've found some examples on soundcloud. They are uneven, some are tolerable and some are not to good.

Thanks for info about CineSymphony crossover, that's a nice feature. It could be really nice for start, but no chamber or solo. In demos I preffered Cinematic Studio Strings over CineSymphony Lite strings, because I find CSS sound more close and chamber and sound of CSL more cinematic-like.
I'll try to check some EWQL Silver demos.

What do You think about Miroslav 2 or UVI Orchestral? They seem to have something that is not bad.


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## SJSharky (Nov 25, 2017)

EastWest Hollywood Orchestra Gold is also currently on sale for less than 250€ (on AudioDeluxe and possibly elsewhere as well), which would probably be one of the better options for a full orchestra in your price range, if your PC can handle it. Another option no one's mentioned and may be closer to (or exactly) what you're looking for is Versilian Studios Chamber Orchestra 2?


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## ism (Nov 25, 2017)

Well, there's a lot to be said for the above recommendations, but given that you have a classical background and don't necessarily need to have everything at once, here's a thought:

Something like cinematic strings 2 (BF sale $225)
http://www.cinematicstrings.com

Which are top quality strings (that don't need kontakt), see for instance



Or if you prefer to start with winds, something like Cinewinds are about the same price.

From there, when you have the budget, you can start to add proper solo instruments. The thing is that nearly any solo instrument in and all-in-one orchestral is going to be bitterly disappointing to a musician But there are some fantastic, and really playable solo instruments emerging at quite reasonable prices - for instance the embertone solo strings are on for $75 at the moment (and doesn't require Kontakt). I especially love the cello - which is paradigmatic of a really performable instrument that allows scope for musicianship in composition in a way that more basic good-enough-for-a-basic-mock-up instruments don't alway encourage. Even in something very high end like Spitfire's (incredible) Symphonic winds, some of the instruments, while great in a symphonic context, don't always stand up to as exposed solo instruments. (Nor would you want every Clarinet patch to be a 1.5G monster in a symphonic context).


I was going to suggest some other Embertone and fluffy audio instruments, which are all on good sales at the moment - but it turns out they all seem to require the full version of Kontakt. Similarly the lightandsound chamber strings would have been a great recommendation at $150 - but again, they need full kontakt too, so I guess this is a bit of a fly in the ointment of this plan.


But perhaps another option is some of the individual VSL instruments - which have the merit of not needing Kontakt, but at the price of a draconian dongle policy. Also, they are very, very dry and the agony of trying to get the reverb right just about wrecked the whole experience when I was starting out. And if you can cope with dongles and engineering your own reverb, *and* you like the overly-pristine sound (as many people do), then the VSL SE is still pretty good, and you can buy it a-la-carte (it's much better that the VSL samples in Kontakt factory incidentally). The key question before going down this road might be how it compares to EastWest (which I don't know). In general both EWO Silver and VSL SE have the merit of being very high quality, if kind of old. Both are light years beyond something like GPO (which might be fine to learn on, but life is simply to short to have to listen to some of those string patches). I got about 10s into the Peter Siedlaczek demo before deciding that life is also too short for whatever's going on with the brass patches there too. For $99 you can currently buy a lovely descant horn from cinesamples, and personal I'd rather have one beautiful horn that an orchestra's worth of terrible instruments.

But another advantage of building slowly is that you can wait for good sales. In the last years for instance sites like VSTbuzz and audioplugindeals have had things like embertone solo strings for $199 and the complete auddict winds for $99 respectively. Occasionally instruments come up for resale here too from companies that allow that, which again at the cost going slowly, is a way to make you budget stretch.

There's a place for these all in one started kits. But there's also an argument for starting slowly, waiting for good sales, and only ever buying really, really, really good instruments, and learning to really use them before spending any more money. Especially given that in the last, I don't know year, or maybe the last 2 or 3 years there's some really spectacular instruments becoming available at previously unheard of prices.


As I said, just a thought.


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## Quasar (Nov 25, 2017)

If you want a full orchestra with complete control over instruments, section sizes etc. as opposed to one of the hi/lo sketch libraries, your budget is less than 250€ and you hate dongles even 1/10th as much as I do, then I don't think you can do better than Garritan Personal Orchestra 5, which is generally underrated around here and is currently (I think) still on holiday sale at 40% off.


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## ism (Nov 25, 2017)

Quasar said:


> If you want a full orchestra with complete control over instruments, section sizes etc. as opposed to one of the hi/lo sketch libraries, your budget is less than 250€ and you hate dongles even 1/10th as much as I do, then I don't think you can do better than Garritan Personal Orchestra 5, which is generally underrated around here and is currently (I think) still on holiday sale at 40% off.



I should add that my distaste for GPO was based on my old GPO v1. Maybe it's better now.

And in the hands of a skilled orchestrator, apparently even GPO 1 could be made to sound great. (Though this remains well beyond me).


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## Quasar (Nov 25, 2017)

ism said:


> I should add that my distaste for GPO was based on my old GPO v1. Maybe it's better now.
> 
> And in the hands of a skilled orchestrator, apparently even GPO 1 could be made to sound great. (Though this remains well beyond me).


Found this on YouTube. While a discerning ear will note that that the room spacing doesn't quite seem "right", and that the dynamic fluctuation isn't quite as sparkling as in a real orchestra, the average person would never even consider this as anything but a video recording of an orchestral work:


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## Pawl (Nov 25, 2017)

Thanks ism for pointing really good possibilities. That's good point with buying quality musical instruments and learning how to use what You've got before spending more money.
I'm aware of Embertone, I liked it very much, but also liked Cinematis Studio Solo Strings. I'll have to take closer look at VSL SE.

I have to dig VSCO2. Demos on their page doesn't show strings too much, but there seems to be many nice usable sounds.

I don't like too much some GPO strings from this vid. I think I prefer Miroslav 2 or UVI OS over GPO 5, but maybe it's the demos quality.


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## ism (Nov 25, 2017)

Pawl said:


> I'm aware of Embertone, I liked it very much, but also liked Cinematis Studio Solo Strings. .




I believe that if you buy the above CS2 (or the slightly more expensive CSS) it would give you a $100 discount on CSSS. Also, I think (though you should check this) that if you buy it now you can use the discount anytime in the future. All top quality instruments. I would still buy something like the embertone cello (for instance) on top of CSSS, as they really don't do the same thing. 

Doesn't quite make your $250 budget, but even a couple of years ago ~$400 wouldn't have got you anywhere near this quality. Not that I'm against GPO, but with libraries like this available for $200 (or less if you own Kontakt) I think the nature of the decision changes from the days when GPO was $150, but something like CS2 ran ~$1500 (which was not that long ago).


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## CT (Nov 25, 2017)

I don't know how much my opinion is worth, but if I were starting today, I would tell myself to go with the VSL SE as my entry point. I have a love/hate relationship with VSL, but even the first volume of the special edition alone is very comprehensive and ultimately a quality product, and is just barely above the budget you mentioned. 

Frankly, I think going with other entry-level options instead of just shelling out a bit more cash for the VSL SE's really set back my whole musical endeavor. I spent months, even years, tinkering, trying to make things sound better than they ever could, instead of just composing. 

It is worth it to make your first library a good one.


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## bap_la_so_1 (Nov 25, 2017)

Cant beat Eastwest for this, even the hollywood silver can serve you well


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## Gerry (Nov 26, 2017)

SJSharky said:


> Another option no one's mentioned and may be closer to (or exactly) what you're looking for is Versilian Studios Chamber Orchestra 2?


Holy crap. Thanks, Sharky! I hadn't ever heard of this one before, and going by the demos, it seems perfect for anyone wanting to dip their toes in the orchestral waters without spending a fortune. Or spending *anything*, for that matter, by starting with their free version. Yes, free. Almost a no-brainer for us low-on-funds people, or even those who aren't ready to plunge their $ into one company's product line. Check it out: http://vis.versilstudios.net/vsco-2.html


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## Shamgar (Nov 26, 2017)

MP2 is junk. It might seem interesting due to its size and content, but many samples are out of tune or have other artifacts that you keep hearing


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## sazema (Nov 26, 2017)

Ihnoc said:


> I started with Kontakt and it's factory library. A lot of the orchestral patches are the same as what you would find in the VSL Special Edition. You will find many libraries are hosted in Kontakt, and the factory gives you a selection of other great samples. They can be extended with the SIPS scripts. I would recommend the VSL Special Edition itself as well.



Just wanted to say, start with NI Factory + legacy orchestral, it's VSL orchestra and try your luck before any money spending. If you're good it will be easy for you to spread you wallet


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## jcrosby (Nov 26, 2017)

miket said:


> I don't know how much my opinion is worth, but if I were starting today, I would tell myself to go with the VSL SE as my entry point. I have a love/hate relationship with VSL, but even the first volume of the special edition alone is very comprehensive and ultimately a quality product, and is just barely above the budget you mentioned.
> 
> Frankly, I think going with other entry-level options instead of just shelling out a bit more cash for the VSL SE's really set back my whole musical endeavor. I spent months, even years, tinkering, trying to make things sound better than they ever could, instead of just composing.
> 
> It is worth it to make your first library a good one.


 
Well said. When it comes to orchestra libraries you get what you pay for...The inexpensive options are fine if you're doing simple arrangements with straight forward articulations. But as it sounds like you plan on moving into more realistic territory somewhere down the line you're basically starting at a disadvantage, and may very well find yourself just spending more money later.

And mind you, VSL is quite pricy, but was even more prohibitively expensive at one point, LASS was $1500 when first released, and EWHO Diamond was two or three times the price at one point IIRC.

You really couldn't be entering the market at a more reasonably priced time. In my experience, money spent well up front means money not redundantly spent again once you realize you've limited yourself by trying to shave a few bucks off on the front end.


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## Pawl (Nov 26, 2017)

With NI stuff I would probably go with whole Komplete, because I want Reaktor, and maybe some other stuff like Battery. But there is so much soft I would probably never use.

What would You say about VSCO2, there are some long YT demos. It sounds quite good after listening it for a while. It can be probably made into something good sounding.



Even if it might be replaced later with something else, there could still be some usable stuff. Hard to tell if it's better than MP2, UVI, GPO or how it compares with VSL SE, EWQL

VSL SE sounds really good, but dongle and price for try. Well, not so much more than VSCO2.
VSL extensions seems pricey, but probably similar when compared with other ways of getting wide palette of sounds.


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## jcrosby (Nov 26, 2017)

I'm not familiar with it, but from the videos the first things that stand out are that the solo strings sound like harmonicas and the sustains sound kind of mellotronish. (Not joking or being sarcastic, they have a very artificial timbre to them, the vibrato sounds pretty fake and the overall tone sounded fairly tinny to me.) Again, not familiar, could be significantly better, but what I heard honestly sounded like sample libraries used to about 12-15 years ago...

Komplete Ultimate has some pretty fantastic stuff. Can't imagine you wouldn't find Symphony essentials to be a really nice starting library. Certainly more lush and natural sounding than anything I heard in these. You also get emotive strings which would let you do some decent sounding runs, and session strings is small sized and can sound nice if mixed with the right reverb and embellished with some proper controller automation... The cost of Kontakt libraries alone pays for Komplete, and you'd be surprised, there's a lot on there you may find yourself using more than you might expect... On top of that you give yourself the most diverse platform with the widest range of top quality sample libraries available for it... IMO Komplete would be the smartest buy... (Kontakt is easily the most used instrument I own, and I use most of what comes with it across various projects...)


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## EgM (Nov 26, 2017)

sazema said:


> Just wanted to say, start with NI Factory + legacy orchestral, it's VSL orchestra and try your luck before any money spending. If you're good it will be easy for you to spread you wallet



For what it's worth, the VSL stuff that comes with the Kontakt factory library is *nothing* like VSL SE. I don't know what kind of watered down edition it is, but it's not even close...


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## kimarnesen (Nov 26, 2017)

There are not many realistic string libraries out there, but the VSCO2 sounds are quite far away, not sure if I would have guessed what they were trying to simulate. Will you write the music in a DAW or a notation software? If you use Sibelius, I'd go for Noteperformer at $129 to just get started and practice on orchestral writing. If you use a DAW, perhaps try the subscription for Composer Cloud and download Eastwest Symphonic Orchestra or their other orchestral libraries?


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## LamaRose (Nov 26, 2017)

Light & Sound Chamber strings 2.0 $150
Spitfire Lab Soft Piano $3
Performance Samples Angry Brass, Strings, Legato violin $0

Doesn't cover everything, but for $153 U.S., you've got libraries that you'll be using far down the road.


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## sazema (Nov 26, 2017)

EgM said:


> For what it's worth, the VSL stuff that comes with the Kontakt factory library is *nothing* like VSL SE. I don't know what kind of watered down edition it is, but it's not even close...



Just read again original posters quote:

_"I don't have much experience in arranging orchestral instruments, so it would be for try now but I might at some point get to mobile game or video presentation music."_

Is it really necessary for someone to spend even 200$ for starting up? VSL located in Kontakt factory coming from VSL Giga edition (old library) and within "legacy" folder you have stripped down most common (or basic) GIG files for each instrument and section. Library also contains most common instruments stripped down to nice GUI and legato patches by NI.

If you ask me, this is more than enough to start with orchestrating.
When you bring out some nice stuff then you can decide what to buy as next library.

Other than this would be light and fast Garittan library for example.

Who knows, maybe at the end you figure out that type of arrangements is not for you, and you have lack with game, movie music but you have some expensive libraries...

So, I can reformulate like this: "If you want to try to play tennis, what should you do?"

* To buy some nice cheap starting point equipment
* To buy equipment Nadal is using it


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## bigcat1969 (Nov 26, 2017)

To me the strings on VSCO2 are the weakest part (kind of like the woodwinds in KH are weaker), the percussion, brass and woodwinds are all quite nice especially for the price. I like all the solo instruments which can be rare in moderately priced orchestras. There are a ton of solo brass and woodwinds instruments.
Note that Sam is my buddy and I did the freebie Kontakt and VST versions so I'm biased.


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## ism (Nov 26, 2017)

LamaRose said:


> Light & Sound Chamber strings 2.0 $150
> Spitfire Lab Soft Piano $3
> Performance Samples Angry Brass, Strings, Legato violin $0
> 
> Doesn't cover everything, but for $153 U.S., you've got libraries that you'll be using far down the road.




Note that this require Kontakt - but also note that Kontakt is on sale for $199. So to reinforce some of the above, this is a very real possible starting point within a $250 budget. Consider: 

a) the old VSL stuff that comes with Kontakt sounds great, note for note (check out the demos). Not a lot of velocity layers, round robins, legato etc, so very limited. But while basic, its more enough to get started. Don't expect any good instruments for legato or dynamic crossfades, and beware of the demos which conveniently happen to all be compositions that happen to not use any legato or dynamic crossfade. But you can't fault the sound quality of the samples. Plan on getting some better strings for sure, but it would be a great starting point if you start to add some more performable instruments on top.

b) That said, there's a lot of stuff in the Kontakt factory library that will get you surprisingly far - the bassoon, for instance, is great for a lot of (non-legato) things. Similarly the pianos, the harp, the percussion, the Tanpura, some of the guitars and so forth are very worthwhile instruments in their own right.

c) given that you would then own the full Kontakt, you can get, for instance 8dio's century brass freebie, which requires full kontakt and can't be used in commercial work, but has a flugal horn and 2-horns instruments that sound great (I'd argue vastly better that the instruments in NI's expense brass libs). Similarly spitfire labs has a bunch of sometime quite brilliant instuments free (with a small donation). 

d) Owning Kontakt also gives you access to some great deals on smaller instruments. Embertone has a lovely wooden flute on sale for $10. Light and Sound has and amazing chamber string library on for $150 at the moment (which I can't recommend enough - probably the only remotely comparable thing is Spitfire's ~$700 chamber strings). Fluffy audio has the best clarinet I've ever heard on for $65 (which I can't recommend enough), and a very good "simple violin" for $25. 8dio has quite its (drippingly-hollywood-romantic) Adagietto strings for $119 - which has its quirks, but it will be vastly better than any of the GPO style all in ones, and the legatos in it are wonderful for certain types of things. 

In general any of these newer, usually smaller, instruments will be light years ahead of any individual instruments in an all-in-one. There are sale prices, but there's always sales. 

Starting with Kontakt not only gives the perfectly passible factory content but it opens up the possibility of collecting great instruments a la carte.


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## LamaRose (Nov 26, 2017)

ism said:


> Note that this require Kontakt...



Yep, my bad. The OP even mentioned not having Kontakt...


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## Shamgar (Nov 27, 2017)

sazema said:


> Just read again original posters quote:
> 
> So, I can reformulate like this: "If you want to try to play tennis, what should you do?"
> 
> ...



perhaps not with tennis, but many bicyclists buy pro-material for their 1 hour a week ride. Pro material might be a waste of money for its intended use, but cheap material might work against your intentions.


Even if TopicStarter will never compose anything for games/tv, and just ends up composing just for himself and his family/friends he might want it to sound as good as possible anyway.

A year ago, I was in a similar situation. I thought I wanted a decent entry level orchestra library to work out some ideas. I ended up buyingMiroslav Philharmonik 2, because it's around 50 GB of samples and it was at 50% discount. Although it sounded ok at first glance, I got annoyed by the many artifacts in the samples (many samples are either out of tune, have weird bow sounds etc) and regardless of panning, stuff seemed to blend into a blurry mess. 
And perhaps my noobness is at fault, but the disappointing sound of MP2 didn't really motivate me to create music with it. On the other hand, whenever I toy around with CineSamples 'Tina Guo' package, I get one creative idea after another, because those samples just sound amazing that I want to keep on playing.

So I decided to upgrade this Black Friday and focus on a good String library first (I ended up buying Spitfire's Black Friday bundle (SSS, SCS, SSS Evo)).

In retrospect I wasted around 200-250 euros on MP2, because I don't think I'll keep using it, but when I bought MP2, I didn't have the money for anything else and I felt I already postponed my dreams long enough.
Had I not bought MP2, I would have probably bought a better String library at a later date for my mind was already set on accumulating a decent orchestral library in the first place.


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## ism (Nov 27, 2017)

Pawl said:


> What would You say about VSCO2, there are some long YT demos. It sounds quite good after listening it for a while. It can be probably made into something good sounding.
> 
> VSL SE sounds really good, but dongle and price for try. Well, not so much more than VSCO2.
> VSL extensions seems pricey, but probably similar when compared with other ways of getting wide palette of sounds.




Solo strings are incredibly hard to do well, arguably the hardest things to sample. And these ones sound particularly terrible. Sure, many of the individual notes sound fine, but so far as I can see there's no legato, no crossfade between dynamic layers, no rebowing, so when you try to put this into an interesting musical phrase it won't be at all convincing. 

Also note that even very good demos can be very misleading - they conveniently avoid all the dynamic ranges and notes that the instrument just can't do well.

And it's not just an issue with quality of the final output. Writing for strings is a lot more than that taking a piano melody and giving it the timbre of a violin. A good cello line, for instance, takes advantages of multiple types of legato, the change in the timbre of crescendos and decrescendos and much else. A bad solo cello lib lacks all concept of this, so unless you're already intimately familiar with how the instruments work in the hands of a performer, its simply not possible to compose anything but the simplest violin or cello parts. 

I'm really hammering the point about performability of solo instruments - and sorry if my personal angst is flowing a bit here - but I just wouldn't waste any time or money on solo strings below a certain threshold. One of the great things about buying the embertone joshua bell is that it means I never have to open the 8dio solo violin again with that sense of impending bitter disappointment. Life is just to short. And mediocre violins are particularly terrible. Personally, I wouldn't bother with any solo violins below the level of embertone Joshua Bell or Vir harmonic.

If there one class of instruments to hold off on until you can afford good ones is solo strings. There are lots of other instruments that are cheaper and easier to sample that to focus on in the mean time.

Focusing this rant a bit - solo stings libraries are not like guitars.

Eric Clapton, for instance, once said that you should learn on a cheap guitar, so that you have to work to make it sound good, so that your have to work to learn how to make it sound good rather then just rely on the quality of an expensive instrument. Which is indeed my experience of really learning to play the guitar as an instrument. (Real guitars that is, just to be clear).

Its debatable how much this applies to sample libraries in general, but I would argue that barely applies to solo strings at all. A bad solo violin library, is better thought of as a piano with the timbre of a violin. It's a totally different instrument, and learning to compose on such instrument basically means plonking away as if it were a variant of piano, oblivious to all of the dimensions of the violin an expressive instrument.

The Emberton Joshua Bell, for instance, has 12 types of legato, for instance (actually, at least 12, in one of the live streams, Alex started rembering further types of legato that he forgot to count), and you can start to actually believe that this instrument you're playing on the keyboard actually has something to do the violin. The Blakus cello has 4 dimensional vibrato - even though in practice you're only going to perform 2 of the 4 parameters at once. Both instrument do very clever things to make this instruments performable. This changes you conceptualize composing for the instrument.


I have a similar, if not quite so vehement, rant about french horns. The NI solo brass library has some beautiful samples to be sure, but although the marketing material appears to go to some lengths to avoid drawing attention to the fact, there are no playable dynamic cross fades. But then, what's the point of a french horn if it's not to write phrases that crescendo from soft, choral timbres into the buzzy harsher timbre of the higher dynamics?

Moral of the story - never buy a brass library without dynamic cross fades. Related point - bassoons need at least 3 dynamic layers otherwise you might as well not have a dynamic crossfade at all.

Sorry, a bit a rant. And of course there lots of uses for non-dynamic horn patches.

But the broader point I'm hammering at here is that simple instruments are perfectly ok to learn certain types of orchestration and voice leading and so on. When you're learning voice leading, you should focus on voice leading and not get distracted by legato technique. But whey you're writing for cello you should never stop thinking about which legato technique to use. And the risk is that you learn to think of instruments as basically pianos you can plonk away at with varying timbres. 

Perhaps this is good enough first approximation, and with things like GPO were first developed, the logic driving this approach wasn't just the cost of sampling, it was also that your average person's machine wasn very powerful - disk space was expensive, memory was expensive fast processors were expensive. But none of the technical limitations of this logic are true, at least not to the same extend any more.

And with so many great sampled instrument that possess really performability, it's really worth rethinking the pedagogical theory implicit in the value proposition of the GPO-like libraries. 


(end of rant, sorry!)


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## sazema (Nov 27, 2017)

Shamgar said:


> perhaps not with tennis, but many bicyclists buy pro-material for their 1 hour a week ride. Pro material might be a waste of money for its intended use, but cheap material might work against your intentions.
> 
> 
> Even if TopicStarter will never compose anything for games/tv, and just ends up composing just for himself and his family/friends he might want it to sound as good as possible anyway.
> ...



So you wanted to say for your first ride (casual) you will buy 8.000$ bike, nice...
Lucky you, you're speaking with biker  10 years ago, when I had idea about bicyclism I bought regular steel frame bicycle for cca 200$ and I ride that bike for next 2 years. Now I have something more powerful and better of course, but that's coming with age and experience.

Then I would suggest to him: invest immediately in VEPro and few slave machines, it will be great investment + a great new studio with some hardware synths, you will need that soon 

... anyway, for me, I don't give a damn, he can buy complete Berlin series if he wants to, but I'm just saying - try your luck and then decide.


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## sazema (Nov 27, 2017)

Now please watch this one, it's made with Garritan 5 and it sounds really nice in mockup. I mean just to get an idea you have talent or not...





and now some with MP




Have no other words then it's just good enough for start...


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 27, 2017)

I would probably get EastWest Hollywood stuff - Gold editions - and VSL Special Editions, perhaps only the sections that are needed. Perhaps a mix of both. Hollywood Strings + Perc, VSL Woods and Chamber Strings. Brass could be either one - VSL if it's supposed to sound more natural and "classical", HOB for a way more filmscore-y, processed sound. The only thing that's missing here is the harp. The one that comes with the VSL SE1 package is very good though.


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## sazema (Nov 27, 2017)

... then if you're able to compose something like this, even with bad MP



man, welcome to orchestral world and save your money for some goodies here...


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## cucio (Nov 27, 2017)

Shamgar said:


> I ended up buyingMiroslav Philharmonik 2, because it's around 50 GB of samples and it was at 50% discount. Although it sounded ok at first glance, I got annoyed by the many artifacts in the samples (many samples are either out of tune, have weird bow sounds etc) and regardless of panning, stuff seemed to blend into a blurry mess.



Absolutely. I got suckered by the nice demos and then I couldn't believe it when I installed and started to play it. I took advantage of the 14-day withdrawal period and sent it back _presto agitato_. If you buy Miroslav Philharmonik 2, be sure to give it a thorough test ride during the first week to decide if you get your money worth or not.

I second the motion of Kontakt + KFL being a safe starting point: it has reasonable entry-level sounds, not only orchestral, is the basis of many quality instruments down the road, can be sold-second hand if you decide to pull the plug or are pressed for money... You can get it for something like $120 with the 50% sale discount, installing Drummica first, then upgrading to Kontakt.

EWHO and VSL are reasonable options too, but have the drawback of not being resale-friendly.


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## Lotias (Nov 27, 2017)

ism said:


> Solo strings are incredibly hard to do well, arguably the hardest things to sample. And these ones sound particularly terrible. Sure, many of the individual notes sound fine, but so far as I can see there's no legato, no crossfade between dynamic layers, no rebowing, so when you try to put this into an interesting musical phrase it won't be at all convincing.


IIRC all VSCO2 instruments generally feature crossfading & artificial SIPS/WIPS legato.


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## Casiquire (Nov 27, 2017)

The VSL Special Editions are a pretty good building block but they might take a bit more skill to use well. A Composer Cloud subscription was a good idea too. I tend to prefer libraries that are focused rather than a whole orchestra released as one package. 

I think another thing that would be especially helpful in the long run is a good orchestration reference. Kent Kennan's Technique of Orchestration is one of the most easy to read but still very detailed guides out there. Of course it assumes that you are already learned in music theory.


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## Shamgar (Nov 27, 2017)

sazema said:


> So you wanted to say for your first ride (casual) you will buy 8.000$ bike, nice...
> Lucky you, you're speaking with biker  10 years ago, when I had idea about bicyclism I bought regular steel frame bicycle for cca 200$ and I ride that bike for next 2 years. Now I have something more powerful and better of course, but that's coming with age and experience.
> 
> Then I would suggest to him: invest immediately in VEPro and few slave machines, it will be great investment + a great new studio with some hardware synths, you will need that soon
> ...



You, sir, are a man of extremes. It isn't a contest between Sir Cheapass vs Sir SpendAlot.

Sure if you're able to make beautifull music with crap software or a crap guitar, then you are probably long overdue for an upgrade. Having to work with crap equipment can also be extremely demotivating. It never comes close to the picture in your mind, because you fall short through the limits of the equipment you work with. You also get used to the imperfections to the point you no longer hear them and it will generally take more time to achieve a satisfactory result.

My own experience is that my guitar teacher advised my mother to buy a better guitar than the cheapest (which she bought initially), because the better sound would improve my own musical hearing and motivate me to keep practising. For me that had always worked as a charm. Which is why I'm trying to learn cello using a 2k Cello instead of a plywood Chinese excuse.

If I build furniture, I'll want to use good tools, instead of wasting my time with crap tools.

There is more between cheap crap and the most expensive option there is and expensive can also be crap [edit] if you don't know how to use it. I have been there as well. So aim for a solid middleground option. [/Edit]

My suggestion is to get a decent string Library like CSS/CineStrings or something, on discount. Compose with that and then expand into a full orchestra.


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## sazema (Nov 27, 2017)

Shamgar said:


> You, sir, are a man of extremes. It isn't a contest between Sir Cheapass vs Sir SpendAlot.
> 
> Sure if you're able to make beautifull music with crap software or a crap guitar, then you are probably long overdue for an upgrade. Having to work with crap equipment can also be extremely demotivating. It never comes close to the picture in your mind, because you fall short through the limits of the equipment you work with. You also get used to the imperfections to the point you no longer hear them and it will generally take more time to achieve a satisfactory result.
> 
> ...



No, wrong!

I'm not extreme here at all. Original poster posted "I have no experience at all... I need something for start and to TRY", take a closer look at first post.
So, my question is does he really need to spend lot of money to TRY !?? Maybe he will realize he is best at deep techno after all, so it's better for him to invest in Live + something else.

And what he can do with CineStrings only? CineStrings would be starting orchestral library? He need complete package for start.

Kontakt + Factory library (orchestral) more than enough for start PERIOD
Make beautiful themes for game/mobile whatever, send mixdown to your friends, let your wife and kids listen to, post here and you'll see if you're talented or not.

... Berlin series is so motivating including MA series!

re to musical school and instrument:
It's a different pair of shoes, but here in my country for example you have pre-class before you join 1st class of elementary musical school.
Pre-class year is used to inspect your potential, or different word: are you have 3 hands or you are talented. You're still young, but in 1 year teachers can judge about potential talent. There is always a wish, but, I can wish I'm an astronaut but technically I have no proposition to be astronaut because I have trouble with centrifugal force etc... So I can only dream about that.
Same is with music sir or any other area in life.


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## Shamgar (Nov 27, 2017)

sazema said:


> Kontakt + Factory library (orchestral) more than enough for start PERIOD
> 
> ... Berlin series is so motivating including MA series!



But Kontakt costs 200 (or double when Black Friday deals are over), which isn't cheap either.
And Topicstarter was considering the likes as EWQLSO Gold/MP2/GPO etc. Some of which are really a waste of money (MP2), others are ok (EWQLSO, albeit dated). And he also considered String only Libraries like CSS

I once discovered a free orchestra library (which wasn't that good) and you could buy a cheap keyboard and use the orchestra pads for your first tries on harmonic/counterpoint stuff.

In the end, Topicstarter will need to decide how much money he wants to spend to try things out.
All I meant to say was that the 'cheap' full orchestra option (specifically MP2) could easily be a waste of money. Its easy to get frustrated and discouraged by picking the wrong cheap option and give up on all your orchestral composing dreams, instead of putting a bit more effort in research and savings to get something that will always be usefull in other projects

When Topicstarter would ask for a physical instrument, I'd suggest to rent a decent one first, instead of trying a plywood chinese replica. There aren't that much rental options for Orchestral libraries (except EastWest I think), so then I'd suggest to either get a EW subscription or buy a library that's good, but doesn't have all instruments, or a library that is good, but doesn't have all articulations, instead of buying a library that has all instruments and a lot of articulations but sounds terrible.

As someone without experience, I'd think it would be better to start composing for smaller sections first. Like ensembles, or String orchestra's instead of aiming for the 100+ head orchestra's


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## sazema (Nov 27, 2017)

Shamgar said:


> But Kontakt costs 200 (or double when Black Friday deals are over), which isn't cheap either.
> And Topicstarter was considering the likes as EWQLSO Gold/MP2/GPO etc. Some of which are really a waste of money (MP2), others are ok (EWQLSO, albeit dated).
> 
> I once discovered a free orchestra library (which wasn't that good) and you could buy a cheap keyboard and use the orchestra pads for your first tries on harmonic/counterpoint stuff.
> ...



Don't get me wrong, I understand you very well and what's on your mind.
My understanding is he wants to try to orchestrate something and he has no experience with orchestral stuff at all.
People here mostly have suggestions like to spend immediately around 5.000$, hah, it's nothing... we're all millionaires here if anyone asks for 
... and we can continue like this until end of this week, and original poster is still quiet


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## Shamgar (Nov 27, 2017)

sazema said:


> Don't get me wrong, I understand you very well and what's on your mind.
> My understanding is he wants to try to orchestrate something and he has no experience with orchestral stuff at all.
> People here mostly have suggestions like to spend immediately around 5.000$, hah, it's nothing... we're all millionaires here if anyone asks for
> ... and we can continue like this until end of this week, and original poster is still quiet



I wish I had 5k to spend, then I'd probably not have completed my orchestral library (aside from MP2, I just have SSS + SCS now), but probably would have invested in some hardware first.

Anyway I was in a similar situation a year ago, wanting to spend around 250-300 to try things out and I regret having bought MP2, instead of having bought a slightly more expensive all-in-one option (like EWQLSO) or a String only option like CS,
There may be great options for the suggested price range of 200-300, but with the knowledge I have now, I'd have made a different decision myself.


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## cucio (Nov 28, 2017)

Shamgar said:


> But Kontakt costs 200 (or double when Black Friday deals are over), which isn't cheap either.



It is actually about $120, if you first install Sennheiser's free Kontakt instrument Drummica, register it with NI and then crossgrade to Kontakt. It is a pretty good deal, 70% off of the list price.


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## Shamgar (Nov 28, 2017)

cucio said:


> It is actually about $120, if you first install Sennheiser's free Kontakt instrument Drummica, register it with NI and then crossgrade to Kontakt. It is a pretty good deal, 70% off of the list price.



I should have known about that 1 week ago, oh well


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## Pawl (Nov 28, 2017)

Now I'm considering Kontakt and yestarday realised that too! There is also possibility to upgrade to Komplete for 200, but I'm not sure I'd like to use NI stuff rather than stuff that I planned to buy or already got from other companies. Well, maybe it's bad approach and it can just sit on my NI account. I want Reaktor so far. There is also option of frequent sales for Kontakt full instruments, as someone also mentioned.
I was also considering some second hand cheaper lib. But KFL indeed seems to sound little better or similar in sparse demos available on YT. But again, as mentioned before, it depends on how one uses it. There are some quite good use examples of MP, GPO or others alike. Maybe it's more importat to sketch something than to have realistic sound and expression at this point. CSS, Embertone or others would be great if I really need more realistic.
I got Your point @Shamgar. I had similar things with guitars when I was starting. Cheap instrument may discourage one from developing musical skills and willing to play, conversely better instrument after it is bought boosts one's motivation. Good equipment from start gives a chance to discover more possibilities quicker. But it's not the same for everyone. Someone can make great use of what he has for his goals.
I think I could use the middle option, which could be KFL for now.

Thanks for pointing Kontakt Factory and Your opinion and all the input so far.


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## DavidGaines (Nov 29, 2017)

I second the motion re: *Garritan Personal Orchestra 5*, which is a tremendous revision of a product that I've always thought is by far the value leader in virtual orchestra libraries. At only USD$150, it can't be beat for people starting out and/or on a budget. Yes, the strings are not the best, but the brass, woodwinds, piano, harp, and percussion are excellent and if you're willing to spend some time tweaking with the 3-band EQ that's included with each instrument, the realism gets quite a bit better - for all their instruments, strings included. Garritan also makes a Concert & Marching Band library and a Jazz & Big Band library (USD$150 each also) if you need euphoniums, saxophones, marching percussion, jazz drum sets, etc. etc. I use all three.

One other advantage of Garritan libraries is that they are EXTREMELY easy to use both live and as a VST/AU plug-in. I also have the *Vienna Symphonic Library special edition* and several individual download instruments, and while the realism is exceptional, the learning curve is intense. It took me a few years (yes, years) to get comfortable with their interfaces, and I have 13 years of conservatory-level electronic music training under my belt. One detail that has always bothered me about Vienna is the lack of a vibrato control (their euphonium has no vibrato at all, which makes it functionally useless, and you have to use a 3rd party vibrato plug-in on it). Garritan makes controlling vibrato a snap on the Aria sampler (included with Garritan libraries).

Finally, one trick I use to make Garritan instruments really useful is to layer them with a free library called *Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra*, which is no longer being maintained but can still be downloaded. The fellow that produced it also made a version that was specifically designed for layering with Garritan instruments. The *Versilian Studios Chamber Orchestra 2 Community Edition*, which is free of charge and was mentioned up above, can serve the same purpose.

So, for a grand total of $150, you can have GPO 5 and the free version of VSCO 2 for layering, and for the composer on a budget that combination can't be beat.


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## MusicInclusive (Nov 29, 2017)

Nice tip for the free download of Drummica. Thanks!  

In similar vein, I was able to use Ostinato - which I picked up for free also some time back as I know many did - to get a 2nd crossgrade license for Kontakt at a very good price. Thankful for that. So, that might work for some who hadn't realized that they had a crossgrade available in the current sale.


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## MusicInclusive (Nov 29, 2017)

GPO 5 is also on sale at around $89 at the moment still. Not sure if the BLACKFRIDAY17 code is still working at MakeMusic itself, but Sweetwater still has the lower price and there may be other places too.


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## robgb (Dec 2, 2017)

MusicInclusive said:


> GPO 5 is also on sale at around $89 at the moment still. Not sure if the BLACKFRIDAY17 code is still working at MakeMusic itself, but Sweetwater still has the lower price and there may be other places too.


I wish I could recommend GPO 5. There are some good things about it, but with its own interface vs. Kontakt, it's just so limited. What folks need to understand is that when you buy the full version of Kontakt, you get with it the ability to tweak your sample libraries to your heart's content. And let's face it, MOST sample libraries need considerable tweaking. So I would recommend anyone working with samples to get the full version of Kontakt and take a few tutorials to learn how to be a power user. I'd also point out that Kontakt not only includes orchestral samples, but if you dig into the menus a bit, you'll find the LEGACY VSL orchestral library, which is a freaking gold mine. Most of the instruments include modwheel x-fade versions and can be tweaked to sound very, very good. Certainly a lot better than what GPO 5 is offering. And yes, buying Kontakt is an investment, but it's one that's well worth it. I've been using it for over a decade now.


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## eboats (Dec 2, 2017)

I bought GPO 5 as a starter and then bought other more expensive VI's later. I thought I'd ditch GPO 5 but was surprised to find that many of its winds and piano for example are as good or better than what I found in the VSL SE winds and Pianoteq. While the VSL SE winds give you a good deal of params, it doesn't even give you the ability to control vibrato depth/speed, and often times the sound isn't as realistic/distinctive as GPO winds. Clearly VSL is just providing a small taste hoping you will pay big bucks to upgrade to their full instruments. 

So IMHO, for the money, GPO 5 has some quality instruments (though not many of the strings of course) and is a good starting point for some instruments.


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## pbattersby (Dec 2, 2017)

DavidGaines said:


> ... a free library called *Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra*, which is no longer being maintained but can still be downloaded. The fellow that produced it also made a version that was specifically designed for layering with Garritan instruments.



You're saying the maker of Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra made a version specifically for use with Garritan. Do you have a link? I'm very familiar with Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra but I've never heard of any alternate version by Mattias Westlund.


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## Samulis (Dec 2, 2017)

It was my original intention behind creating VSCO 2 Pro to be more technically advanced, interesting, and "live" than GPO and make a library which sat right in between such legacy libraries and the traditional "backbone" libraries like EWQL SO Platinum, while also creating a library which doesn't sound quite like anything else.

I am reluctant to compare VSCO 2 Pro to anything, as it really doesn't sound like anything else to my ears (and that was one of the goals)- it's not Hollywood, nor is it Symphony Hall. It's some kind of quirky creature that emerges when you stick a bunch of musicians in a room on a Saturday afternoon, tell a few corny jokes, record the basics, then ask them what sounds they want to explore... because that's exactly how the library was made. If you try to compare it to a Hollywood library, it sounds tentative and raw. If you try to compare it to a Symphonic library, it sounds folky.

Obviously this isn't to say there aren't good and bad within the library, or that it somehow can magically surpass libraries with twice the price. It's just... different, and that's something I try to make very clear in the marketing of the library.

However, here a few things VSCO 2 Pro has that GPO doesn't-
- Many more velocity layers (up to 10 for some percussion) and modwheel crossfading on all sustaining patches with two or more velocity layers (most have at least 2-3 unless technically impossible, e.g. harpsichord).
- At least stereo recordings on all instruments, up to 5 mic positions.
- Up to 16 articulations per instrument, including some very, very unusual ones (e.g. sul ponticello cello section doing Mongolian throat singing).
- Primarily diatonic or chromatic sampling, occasional minor thirds.
- Minimum of 2xRR on shorts, up to 4. Percussion 4-8 RR.
- A range of ~12 ethnic flutes and a full set of sSATB baroque recorders (chromatically sampled sustains @ 2RR <3).
- 8 triangles, individually sampled bells from a bell tree, bowed anvils and brake drums, four snares with real sampled rolls (dynamically crossfading), ball whistle, siren, cajon... ophicleide, alto saxhorn, and tenorhorn.
- Pianos and harpsichords have full sustains.
- Sampled releases on all instruments, including keys.
- Modern recordings conducted between 2013-2016, 98% explicitly for the library. No legacy samples from 20 years ago!
- Snapshots for many patches with unique sounds ranging from electronic to vintage.

I strongly believe VSCO 2 Pro is an ideal choice for someone getting started who wants an unequally broad palette of solid sounds that is just as happy in their instruments tab the first day as it is 5 years down the line. Heck, there's stuff we sampled that isn't in even the top-tier latest-gen libraries just because we decided to sacrifice a bit of sample density for as many articulations as possible (while GPO sacrificed considerably more density just for more variations of generic articulations). The library is fantastic at blending with "big name" libraries, which I do regularly in my own works. In that regard, it's pretty future-proof, unlike GPO 4, which I left in the dust when I bought EWQL SO three months after buying it- there is such a thing as "too cheap".

On the other hand, in terms of value for the beginner, just about nothing can touch EWQL SO, despite its own age, for heavier orchestral work. It's an immensely enjoyable library to write with in my opinion, although extremely easy to "abuse" as a beginner, unlike VSCO 2 which was designed to be a bit more "abuse-resistant" (the chamber-sized strings do have the benefit of making the "500 strings" sound near unachievable). The strings and woodwinds from SO are still good enough to use professionally and it runs well enough on limited systems- you can even still hear it regularly on TV. I return to EWQL SO even now from time to time, despite having much more powerful modern libraries at my disposal.

I also very strongly stress the importance of "virtual idiomatics"- I see it all the time that people complain when they can't make a library sound as good as the demos and say "oh, they must be adding something." The truth is, virtual instruments have just as many idiomatic quirks as the real things (often more) and good demo composers know how to play each library to its strengths and avoid or conceal the weaknesses. To expect a library to cover everything perfectly is simply not possible, between the necessities of product differentiation and the massive range of tones and use cases explored in recorded music. Even GPO and freeware libraries can be polished to borderline acceptable levels for game dev and film students.

There is obviously a point at which it is necessary to buy the professional tier tool. However, I strongly believe it is important to "climb the ladder" the hard way. I learned far more about MIDI tweaking and phrasing by working with sub-par tools (freeware and soundfonts) at my start and building up than anyone I've ever met who bought in big at first. Constraints are widely considered one of the most vital parts of maintaining a healthy creative process, not to mention it eases the learning curve, which, when you get to top-tier stuff, can be quite steep.


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