# Back Pain - Pls **** off. The chair is my Achilles heal - any recommendations?



## toomanynotes (Apr 4, 2020)

Help, Seriously I'm I the only Composer that gets a backache sitting on ANY chair for 2 hours at a time? I mean I can sit for hours when at my Daw..but when I get up...oops
Always the slipped disc feeling weak right hand lower back. My back is perfect otherwise. I never have issues at the gym either.
I usually lie on my bed but recently decided to get back to using Cubase 10 etc but as always my back starts to get fussy and play up...the reason alone puts me off doing anything on my main Daw. , It's very annoying.
Pls any good 'affordable' recommendations...postures, cushions, office chairs..at the moment I'm sitting in a luxury green leather low chair which I have to fill out with cushions. I hate chairs. :'(

Thanks
Pin


----------



## Richard Wilkinson (Apr 4, 2020)

I use a swopper which is basically a stool on a car suspension spring. Never had any back issues since changing to it, and it's great for core strength and posture. Also I spend over half my work time stood up now which helps even more. 

A cheap version of my chair which would do more-or-less the same thing would be an exercise ball.


----------



## Gerd Kaeding (Apr 4, 2020)

toomanynotes said:


> Help, Seriously I'm I the only Composer that gets a backache sitting on ANY chair for 2 hours at a time? I mean I can sit for hours when at my Daw..but when I get up...oops
> Always the slipped disc feeling weak right hand lower back. My back is perfect otherwise. I never have issues at the gym either.
> I usually lie on my bed but recently decided to get back to using Cubase 10 etc but as always my back starts to get fussy and play up...the reason alone puts me off doing anything on my main Daw. , It's very annoying.
> Pls any good 'affordable' recommendations...postures, cushions, office chairs..at the moment I'm sitting in a luxury green leather low chair which I have to fill out with cushions. I hate chairs. :'(
> ...




Hey Pin ,

the only way to get really rid of any back issues is physical exercise ( _daily_ !!! ) to strengthen your *muscles* . Switching the chair might feel comfortable for a moment , but that will not last for long.

I'm usually sitting 12hours (or more ) a day in front of my DAW , and physical exercise ( 60min/day) is a necessity for me to stay healthy.


For example , you can start with these exercises for strenghtening the necessary muscles :
-





And these exercises are good for relaxing your back when you feel pain :
-




Best ,
Gerd


----------



## NekujaK (Apr 4, 2020)

As pathetic as this may sound, I spend most of my waking hours sitting in front of a computer screen - either for my day job, my music work, or other miscellaneous stuff (email, etc.). It's been like this for about 3 decades, and my back has definitely paid the price at various points along the way. Also, I have some minor carpal tunnel issues that flare up if I'm not careful.

To minimize the occurrances of back pain, which can sometimes border on debilitating, here are some things that work for me:

- A good office chair, designed for long sitting hours is crucial. Sitting on sofas, stuffed chairs, or even a standard straight chair, may be comfortable for short sessions, but they will eventually kill my back if I work that way for more than an hour or two.

- Posture is key. Keeping the back straight, not hunching over, helps a lot. When I'm working really intensely, especially on music, I tend to lean forward in my chair, which ultimately puts a tremendous amount of strain on my lower back. I have to consciously catch myself doing this, and force myself to lean back in the chair, otherwise my lower back will go into spasms when I eventually get up.

- Keep my head level. Working on a laptop requires you to bend your head down to see the screen, which is not good for the neck, and consequently bad for the back (it's all connected). I can't work on a laptop more than a couple of hours without neck pain and tingling numbness in one of my arms, so I always try to work at a monitor set at eye level.

- Readjust as necessary. The great thing about a good office chair is that everything's adjustable - height, seat angle, flexibility, arm rests, etc. Depending on how long I've been sitting and how my back may be feeling, I'll make minor adjustments throughout a session to find the most comfortable configuration for my body at that time.

- Take an anti-imfammatory as necessary. Assuming no physical damage to the spine, most back pain stems from inflammation. Taking Advil or Alieve at the start of a session can do wonders to mitigate back pain during the session. Be careful though, those drugs have harmful side effects on your body when used long term.

- Take breaks and stretch. This is really important but not always easy to remember. Getting up and moving around every 30 minutes can provide tremendous relief to your back. Lean back and open your arms wide - when we work at a computer, our body tends to close in, so it's important to stretch it out in the opposite direction.

- Work standing. The next investment for my studio is an elevating desk so I can work standing as well as sitting. Sitting is the new smoking, and prolonged sitting can have many adverse effects.

Hope some of this is helpful for your situation.


----------



## Jeremy Gillam (Apr 4, 2020)

My Aeron chair was definitely a regret-free purchase.


----------



## gpax (Apr 4, 2020)

Yes to what others are saying, that a chair alone is not the answer, even the best ones.

But from years of personal experience nursing back woes while working (and having no chronic problems in the last ten years), I can confidentially say that if you don’t have a good chair that adjusts ergonomically, you don’t have a good chair. 

Assuming you prefer sitting to the benefits of standing, at some point, as your budget allows, I encourage you to think of the chair as a studio tool - worthy of an investment. The buzz words you offered don’t quite fit what a good task chair will, or should provide. 

Mine shall remain nameless so as not to advocate a brand. In terms of ergonomic musts for me, the arms adjust in several ways: the arm pads move forward and back into locked positions. The pads adjust to the inside and out to accommodate the width of my body (and they even fan out at angles above and beyond the x/y positioning) for when I lean or rest my elbows accordingly. They move back for keyboard use, too. 

Oh, some good ergonomic choices also start with the obvious: some models come in various seat/widths to actually match a person‘s body type. That was crucial for my medium sized frame, with short legs (as in the exercises posted above, back issues are frequently about what is happening from the hips and legs). 

Because of being visually impairmed, I rely on a chair with forward tilt, which also locks into a sitting position when I don’t want it to rock. It’s swivel (as I stretch or lean back) has precise tension settings as well, which some may adjust into static position, but which I change from time to time when my body in general needs different support on a given day. I alternate positions when I sense fatigue or strain. Movement options keep the muscles guessing and engaged.

Subconsciously, I routinely move the arm rests, and will alternate to forward tilt as my brain signals it’s time to change sitting posture through the day. While posture is crucial, none of these options are as beneficial to me as the little app I recently installed that also tells me to stand every fifteen minutes for thirty seconds, then each hour for two minutes (user defines the intervals).

But if you must sit... On the interim/cheaper side: my husband is sheltered at home like many of us, without the benefit of his pricey chair from work. He just bought one of those Purple (company name) seat cushions, and it felt great when I tried it out. It has support - yet fluidity for circulation. They make various widths and a lumbar cushion, all in the $80-100 USD range. I may even get one for my $$$ chair.


----------



## SupremeFist (Apr 4, 2020)

Any "office" or "ergonomic" chair that encourages the user to slump back into it is bad. Your back doesn't need support, and good posture does not mean keeping any fixed position. A simple flat chair or even a piano stool is better.


----------



## EvilDragon (Apr 4, 2020)

I was reborn after I got this chair:





__





Products


Browse our full range of products from dressing tables to complete modern kitchens. Click here to find the right IKEA product for you. Browse online and in-store today!




www.ikea.com


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 4, 2020)

Abs and lower back muscles, friends.


----------



## gpax (Apr 4, 2020)

Jeremy Gillam said:


> My Aeron chair was definitely a regret-free purchase.


I started with a “Sit for Less” used Aeron, which is now enjoying a third life by a fellow composer. It was as robust for me then as if it were brand at the time.


----------



## MartinH. (Apr 4, 2020)

If you ask different professionals about this, you'll get a lot of conflicting information. Likely in this thread too. Experiment and see what works for you.



NekujaK said:


> - Take breaks and stretch. This is really important but not always easy to remember. Getting up and moving around every 30 minutes can provide tremendous relief to your back. Lean back and open your arms wide - when we work at a computer, our body tends to close in, so it's important to stretch it out in the opposite direction.



I think stretching excercises along those lines and the "cobra pose" in the second video that @Gerd Kaeding posted are a good start. But try to hold each stretch about 90 seconds and then very slowly go back into a neutral position. If the tissue around your muscles is foreshortened, those stretches are supposed to hurt. For most people they probably will hurt. If you can't smile anymore while doing it, you're stretching too far. If you don't feel pain from the stretch at all, it's likely too little. 
The theory is that our one-sided movement patterns (even sleeping positions etc.) lead to structural changes in the fasciae, and to restructure them through stretching, you need to hold those stretches for about 90 seconds or longer. If you're doing just 20 seconds e.g., it's almost useless. 

The classical approach is always to strengthen the muscles in the area that hurts to offer "support". The guy on youtube that I've started to follow for related advice says that's exactly the wrong approach. He claims stretching the opposing muscles is the way to go to relax the pull on the joints. Seems to work for a lot of people, and not at all for some others. I can only say that his method healed a tendonitis issue that I had within days, where all other sources claimed "nothing you can do about it instead of taking anti-inflammatory drugs and letting it heal over time". I saw radical improvements in short time, so I thought he might be on to something with his approach. You can find him on youtube under "Liebscher & Bracht", but I think all or most of the videos are in German only.


----------



## pmountford (Apr 4, 2020)

The aeron herman miller is so frequently seen in studios and after owning one for many years I can understand why. Wholeheartedly recommend.


----------



## Gingerbread (Apr 4, 2020)

I have an Aeron chair, going 10 years strong. It's wonderful, highly recommended, especially for people who sit for many, many hours.

But I've also found that the best thing for a bad back is walking. Daily walking, for at least an hour.

And the worst thing is lying down. Lying down only makes it worse.


----------



## Tim_Wells (Apr 4, 2020)

I had terrible back problems. For the price of a book, Dr. John Sarno literally transformed my life. No exageration.


----------



## toomanynotes (Apr 4, 2020)

Wow thank you so much for the wonderful info! Really pleased to see so many comments about these pesky back issues, all noted thank you guys. I'll defo look into all chair/youtube suggestions and yoga poses/exercises and book. It's worse than ever being in this coronavirus lockdown.
The standing suggestions are interesting too. The spending never ever ends with this music making..and then you get kicked in the balls. Id rather take down Talos and fight skeletons for the golden fleece then have a bad back.


----------



## SupremeFist (Apr 4, 2020)

toomanynotes said:


> Wow thank you so much for the wonderful info! Really pleased to see so many comments about these pesky back issues, all noted thank you guys. I'll defo look into all chair/youtube suggestions and yoga poses/exercises and book. It's worse than ever being in this coronavirus lockdown.
> The standing suggestions are interesting too. The spending never ever ends with this music making..and then you get kicked in the balls. Id rather take down Talos and fight skeletons for the golden fleece then have a bad back.


Good luck! I had a herniated disc once and it was horrible, but I doubled down on the qigong I had recently started learning (as a supplement to my practice of taijiquan or "tai chi"), and I got better and stronger. Just remember you heal from within yourself, and for the love of god stay away from surgeons for this kind of thing


----------



## schrodinger1612 (Apr 4, 2020)

I have problems with knots in my upper back. Also the bottom of my spine hurts when sitting for prolonged periods...what has really helped is a donut shaped orthopaedic cushion.


----------



## haydn12 (Apr 4, 2020)

I have had back issues for the past few years but not have major sciatica issues. Moving around in the morning is very painful until I stretch. I now have stretch multiple times a day. I do exercise regularly which also created problems as I was lifting too much weight which compresses the discs in your lower back causing more pain. I got to the point that I could barely sit in front of my music computer because my computer chair was causing intense pain when I would stand up. This chair had too thick of a cushion and no lumbar support. I started researching chairs and was originally going to get the Aeron chair. I ended up getting the Steelcase Leap chair which had higher ratings for helping sciatica pain. It was also over $500 cheaper than the Aeron chair. So far the chair has been excellent. I can sit in the chair for extended lengths of time and don't have the pain standing up as my old chair was giving me. I have to work from home now for my day job so I sit in the chair for over 10 hours a day.


----------



## Andrew66 (Apr 4, 2020)

I had lower back pain for many years. The kind where my lower back would lock up and I would be incapacitated for a week. The problem was my back muscles were weak. I started deadlifting regularly to build the strength in my back - no more problems. Deadlifts are pretty easy to learn to do properly. Check out startingstrength.com - the technique videos are the best.


----------



## MartinH. (Apr 4, 2020)

Yesterday I had a very sudden and strong pain in my back from lifting a heavy bag with a sudden sideways motion (don't do that... ever) after not geting any excercise for too long. I dragged myself back into bed and applied a TENS unit and googled some stretching excercises. That seemed to help, because I was walking normally again soon after. 

If you buy such a thing, I recommend one with analog dials for the intensity and the ability to manually set frequency and pulsewidth instead of only having presets for certain applications. The first one we had ordered was all digital and couldn't be adjusted into a combination of settings that felt good.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 4, 2020)

There are lots of threads about this. I love my Aeron so much it's almost illegal, as many people do, but some people such as my wife find them uncomfortable.

Richard Wilkinson likes his Swopper. My wife and daughter love theirs.

I have one and like it, but it hurts my rear end after half an hour because its cushion isn't soft enough. Also, I like having chair arms. The recommendation that you adjust to it gradually because it works your core never applied to me - I've never noticed any of that. I just use it for auxiliary seating, though.

Also, lots of people like standing desks. My back hurts like hell if I stand still for a long time. And that's not an age thing - it's always been like that. Other people like standing. Go figure.


----------



## nolotrippen (Apr 4, 2020)

- Take breaks and stretch. This is really important but not always easy to remember. Getting up and moving around every 30 minutes can provide tremendous relief to your back. Lean back and open your arms wide - when we work at a computer, our body tends to close in, so it's important to stretch it out in the opposite direction.

Have to agree. Drink lots of water (16 oz glass at a time). This will cause you to, yup, get up and visit the activity room (aka "restroom"). Otherwise, set and alarm for getting up every half hour or so and just walk around for a couple of minutes, stretching as you go. I also hang from a pull-up bar. All of this helps. And the back exercises, too, as mentioned above.


----------



## Steve Martin (Apr 4, 2020)

hi Pin,

I'm just at the final end of having chronic back pain for a couple of weeks, plus three trips to the physio, which cost me almost $300. One of the best things to do is one of the exercises that I saw on the second youtube video shared by Gerd in this thread. However, one of the best things is straight ice on the sore area to help relieve the pain. Strengthening exercises are a must. The basic exercises my physio first gave me I actually found here. https://www.ucheepines.org/low-back-pain/
also https://www.ucheepines.org/backache-1/

I found the lying down for 5 minutes flat on the ground before you do the exercises proscribed on the first yuchi pines link is actually important before you do the exercises. The idea is that when you do them, as you lift your upper section from the ground, you leave everything from your neck downards, limp and hanging down, as this helps stretch your lower back muscles in a gentle way. My physio explained it as when you sprain a muscle, you don't want to just rest it, you need to move it a little bit to help it get better, without hurting it.You only do the exercise 5 times, 3x a day. Also on Gerds video, the second one - At 2 minutes, 11 seconds into the second of Gerd's video, is the hardest one. I couldn't do it at the physio, but a friend who had back pain once, told me this is very effective. It is very very hard to get your hands around your leg and to join the fingers behind the leg, but I gave my everything and was able to do it. Great exercise.

Ice, Ice, Ice on the affected area. I spent almost 5 hours lying straight on the floor with ice on my back, changing it regularly and doing some of the exercises.

This guy here has a free back pain course, with all of the exercises on videos for free. They also have exercises to strengthen those muscles.








Kadalyst Free Online Course: Overcoming Back Pain


Dr. Nathan Kadlecek, a physical therapist and owner of Kadalyst Wellness and Physical Therapy, has created a free online course entitled Overcoming Back Pain.




www.socialwave.net




,

once you've enrolled, go to his 'getting started guide', and on the right hand side is a link to videos of all of his exercises called 'additional how to videos'. The main exercises are all there. The Yuchi pine exercises my physio first proscribed to me are the 'prone press up cobra', and the 'prone press up'.

If you've got really bad back pain, I can empathise, when I first had it, the pain was so bad, I had difficulty going to sleep, this video has some ideas to help you.




I hope that is helpful. Also, sitting at a desk makes things hard on your back muscles, so trying doing breaks where you do the stretching exercises, and also keeping some ice on your back while sitting helps with the inflammation.

Hope that is helpful.


----------



## toomanynotes (Apr 5, 2020)

I do need a new chair, will use these exercise videos, will take breaks and perhaps buy a TENS unit! I've learn't a lot thanks to you guys! I hope this thread will help others too!! ))


----------



## SDCP (Apr 5, 2020)

Herman Miller Embody. Expensive, but worth it.


----------



## JohnG (Apr 7, 2020)

toomanynotes said:


> I do need a new chair, will use these exercise videos, will take breaks and perhaps buy a TENS unit! I've learn't a lot thanks to you guys! I hope this thread will help others too!! ))



I see lots of lifestyle advice in this thread; no doubt we should all eat only veggies and go for vigourous workouts twice a day, but in the mean time I have one of these:









Best Ergonomic Chair for Back Pain


All33 - Welcome to the Revolution of Athletic Sitting™




all33.com




...

I also bought one for my agent, who liked it so much he bought one for his home too.

When the days stretch into 18 hours, sometimes I trade back to the Aeron for a while for variety, but this All33 has been the best I've had.


----------



## arvfur (Apr 7, 2020)

I have a spinal cord injury and this chair has been great for my back:

https://www.spinalis.com/p64/pilot

Kind of a Swopper, but more like a real chair. I've had it for 6 years.
When I first got it, I got tired after an hour as you have to use your core muscles to sit straight. 
Now I can sit for very long sessions.


----------



## babylonwaves (Apr 7, 2020)

Aeron / Herman Miller (second one but I don't really ever compared). A Lumbar is good (it's an option that makes you sit up tighter). What helped me though is training inner muscles. That's what a swooper is supposed to do but there are more effective ways. Get to a physio therapist and learn. It takes half a year but it helps a lot. Jogging is good for me as well, if your disks are OK this is also a good option.

HTH


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 7, 2020)

babylonwaves said:


> training inner muscles. That's what a swooper is supposed to do



As I wrote, mine doesn't have that effect on me. I don't feel it working my core when I sit on it, and it's not because my core is so strong.


----------



## gsilbers (Apr 7, 2020)

have you tried standing desks? 

most of the time we doing dumb stuff. then lower it down to mix or something more intense and have speakers at proper height. 

the other thing I do is to use a laptop and lie down on a couch or bed and work that way. 
then connect it to the rig to use the big screen. 

I think a lot of people including me are stuck with these huge setups and need to be in a specific posture because that's how composers work. when I see so many kids or hiphop crowd just w a laptop in a couch, Coffee shop etc. 
u do need a big ssd drive though 

the few people that complaint about back pain where I used to work (post houses/corporate) seem to have these weird mouse and desktop setups. a side ways mouse and ergonomic keyboard. 

myself, I have an old chair from the set of Mad men that they where selling in Burbank place where they sell tv show furniture. its very 50-60s type of chair. but I do use a cushion. a normal pillow underneath.


----------



## jonvog (Apr 7, 2020)

gsilbers said:


> have you tried standing desks?
> 
> most of the time we doing dumb stuff. then lower it down to mix or something more intense and have speakers at proper height.



That's exactly why I built a standing desk myself - with space for speakers on the desk (they are now like 3 ft apart which is kinda close, but works). I haven't had issues with my back so far, but standing at least one or two hours a day feels good.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 7, 2020)

I can walk for miles no problem, but standing still for 20 minutes kills my back.


----------



## jneebz (Apr 7, 2020)

I'm a physical therapist with >15 years experience and I may catch some flak for this, but may I humbly suggest you spend the money on a thorough, personalized evaluation by a spine specialist (osteopath, orthopedic doc) or physical/physiotherapist that specializes in the spine (look for COMT, OCS and/or FAAOMT in their title)?

There is a lot of advice on this thread, but frankly its futile to make judgments based on just pain and chair problems. I do agree with a few things....that a healthy back and tolerance to sitting does improve with proper exercise and nutrition, and that a proper ergo setup can make a world of difference. But the bottom line is everyone has pain for different reasons, and you should really get your individual problem diagnosed properly. I can't stress this enough. Just my $.02.


----------



## kgdrum (Apr 7, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> As I wrote, mine doesn't have that effect on me. I don't feel it working my core when I sit on it, and it's not because my core is so strong.




Well the funny thing with back problems is everyone’s are kind of unique and everyone responds differently to various approaches.
I have 3 herniated disks when my back was at it worst I was a few weeks away from surgery.
My orthopedist was asking me pre-surgery questions and when he realized I had never been hospitalized or had any type of surgery he suggested as a last ditch attempt to avoid surgery I should try taking the physical therapy a little more seriously.
So I did and I found for me bike riding and exercise bike is the best medicine for my weird back. btw the doctor was scheduling my surgery and that was in 1992.
If I have a back problem more often than not a bike ride helps me immensely.
My brother is a MD and he actually says most people wouldn’t find the benefit of cycling that I do.
My point is everyone’s back problems and solutions are unique it’s not one size fits all.I have an Aeron Chair ,it’s nice but for me it’s secondary to a nice ride on a bicycle! 👍


----------



## Thundercat (Apr 7, 2020)

There was a period of time of a few months in the '90s where I had excruciating back pain on and off. I hadn't injured myself and was still in my 20s. I tried doing back exercises, and they helped a little, but did not solve the issue.

My father, who was an EE at the time, suggested I simply adjust my chair at work up or down by a couple of inches. With nothing to lose, I tried it, and my back pain went away almost instantly, never to return.

There is something to be said for the physics of our seating postures.

Great thread everyone!

Mike


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna (Apr 7, 2020)

toomanynotes said:


> I do need a new chair, will use these exercise videos, will take breaks and perhaps buy a TENS unit! I've learn't a lot thanks to you guys! I hope this thread will help others too!! ))


paying $650.00 for my chair was easily one of the best purchases I have ever made. Before then it was crappy $100-$250 that would break every 2 years (and be uncomfortable after a decent duration). 

I find sitting on mesh is fantastic + exercise for strengthening should help you a lot.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 7, 2020)

kgdrum said:


> Well the funny thing with back problems is everyone’s are kind of unique and everyone responds differently to various approaches.
> I have 3 herniated disks when my back was at it worst I was a few weeks away from surgery.
> My orthopedist was asking me pre-surgery questions and when he realized I had never been hospitalized or had any type of surgery he suggested as a last ditch attempt to avoid surgery I should try taking the physical therapy a little more seriously.
> So I did and I found for me bike riding and exercise bike is the best medicine for my weird back. btw the doctor was scheduling my surgery and that was in 1992.
> ...



I'm surprised you got that far before being sent for physical therapy. That's normally the first step, followed by cortisone injections (or possibly other nerve blocks), and surgery is the last resort.

My comments about chairs aren't because *I* have a bad back, by the way. I don't, although I have twisted it a few times over the years. But those are just transitory soft tissue injuries, not chronic issues.


----------



## kgdrum (Apr 7, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I'm surprised you got that far before being sent for physical therapy. That's normally the first step, followed by cortisone injections (or possibly other nerve blocks), and surgery is the last resort.
> 
> My comments about chairs aren't because *I* have a bad back, by the way. I don't, although I have twisted it a few times over the years. But those are just transitory soft tissue injuries, not chronic issues.




I was already going to physical therapy but I was a bit half assed about it and didn’t understand how important PT could be in minimizing the problem.
Once I started applying myself and found something I liked and also gave me noticeable relief,I was hooked and I started to see the prospect of surgery in the rear view mirror.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 8, 2020)

One other comment re: the title of this thread: if you hurt your back, *any* chair is likely to be uncomfortable, because sitting hurts. So does standing, lying down... you name it. 

In my experience some chairs are less uncomfortable than others while you're injured, but it's probably not the best time to find the right one.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 8, 2020)

Okay, I remembered the name. There's a guy who exhibits at NAMM shows, and his chairs are really comfortable. I'd be very tempted if I didn't already have an Aeron. These borrow obvious parts of the design, but they're not the same - and they're less expensive.

Scroll down to the Stealth chairs.









Ergolab


Finally a Ergonomic chair built exactly for you! Ergolab Ergonomic chairs are elevated seating built for the end user in the most comfortable way possible.




www.ergolab.com


----------



## jules (Apr 8, 2020)

Simply removing the back of my seat made a huge difference for me. Now i basically sit on an ottoman adjustable in height.


----------



## Dietz (Apr 8, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> I was reborn after I got this chair:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Those headrests tend to be reflective right behind the ears, which is highly irritating in a studio situation.


----------



## EvilDragon (Apr 9, 2020)

Not really a problem I've noticed over here. But then again I'm not in a soundproofed studio but a living room. For now.


----------



## charlieclouser (Apr 12, 2020)

Gingerbread said:


> I have an Aeron chair, going 10 years strong. It's wonderful, highly recommended, especially for people who sit for many, many hours.



I may hold some kind of record. I bought a Herman Miller Aeron within a couple of months after they first came out in 1994. I'd been using $200 "executive" chairs from Staples or Office Depot for a few years and was getting about two years out of each one. This was long before the era of internet shopping, so I went down to the local Herman Miller showroom and paid a ridiculous full-pop price for the Aeron, which at that time came in only one size and one style.

I still sit on it to this day.

Twenty-six freaking years out of an $1,800 chair. It was a ridiculous value. I have a lot of other Herman Miller pieces, including Eames chairs, a Nelson Action Desk, and two huge Chadwick sectionals from the 1970's that are also still like new going on 50 years old.

The mesh fabric is a huge advantage over conventional leather, pleather, or fabric cushions - definitely not snake oil.

Another advantage to the actual Aeron is that it's like a whole subculture, with spare parts readily available - both from Herman Miller and third-party manufacturers. I've swapped out the original plastic-coated armrest pads for leather-wrapped ones - not because they wore out but because I saw them on eBay for $300 and thought, "what the hell". Worth it.

The actual hardware is built to a standard that is unbelievably high, and I think the earlier models were built just a little bit better than the more recent editions which are quite a bit cheaper than I paid - less than a third the price these days. I have my first one which is 26 years old and a second which is about 16 years old and the original is better, no question.

The only thing I do not like is that there is no way to adjust the resistance to spin / swivel. My original one has a satisfying grippy-ness to swiveling, so you stay more firmly in place, and don't accidentally spin right round, baby, right round, like a record, baby. The newer one spins more easily and I find that this is a detriment. But that's my only complaint.

If you get an Aeron, they come in various sizes - make sure to get the correct one. I'm 6' and 190 lbs and the "medium" size is perfect.

Maximum highest recommendation.

But I think that part of the reason I don't have any back/shoulder/arm pain from 3+ decades of staring at the screen is an absolute commitment to correct ergonomics. I see many composer's rigs that I know would give me shoulder pain due to the position of computer / music keyboards, desk height, or dreaded touchscreens that require shoulder extension to operate. For me it comes down to a matter of a inches - the desk surface one which the computer keyboard sits MUST be between 29 and 30 inches from the floor, and the music keyboard must be mounted so that the top of the keys is within an inch of being flush to the desk top. That's why I still use a crappy M-Audio Keystation 88es - because it's shallow (front to back) and thin (top to bottom), and why I was momentarily eyeing the Roland A-88mk2.

This is also why I will never be able to use an NI S-88 or other big, chunky, 88-key hammer action controllers - their size requires bad ergonomics, and their placement of knobs and displays in the center means there is absolutely no way to position the computer keyboard in such a way that both playing and typing can be done without hurting. I see rigs with the computer keyboard on a little tray below the music keyboard, or with the music keyboard sitting high up on the desk surface behind the computer keyboard and I just know that such positioning will eventually cause pain - and I've had rigs that were like this and after an hour or so it was agony, even when I was young and sprightly.

This is also why a touchscreen controller will never be in my studio. I played with a Slate Raven when they first came out, naively thinking that a "glass console" would surely be the way of the future - but within half an hour I felt the twinges in my shoulders and I knew that it would never work for putting in the consecutive hours that I need. Even a little iPad behind the computer keyboard requires too much arm extension for me - never mind those massive 27" Android tablets or whatever they are that JunkieXL and many other composers seem to love. I'd rather memorize another layer of cryptic key commands than be in agony after a couple of hours. Any piece of gear that requires you to hold an arm up or extended for more than a second or two is likely going to be a problem sooner or later, so using faders on a touch screen to ride automation for the length of a cue, or to control expression / dynamics while playing, is a recipe for pain. But hardware faders, which can be mounted low / flush to the desk surface, and more importantly, allow you to rest the heel of your hand on something while you use them, are infinitely better. This is usually not possible with touch screen controllers unless the fader is right at the edge of the screen - in most setups I see the user will have to hold their hand elevated, with only their fingertip(s) touching the screen while using them. This is a real problem for me, but might not be so for everyone, at least until it's too late and they wonder why there's a weird soreness at the top of the shoulder, right above their collarbone. But this isn't the first thing on people's minds when deciding to use a touch screen for that purpose. Maybe if it's just used as a panel of buttons that are touched momentarily, instead of as a fader controller for minutes-long rides, the issue will take longer to manifest. It's not so much the awkwardness of positioning the unit, it's holding the arm elevated, with only the operating fingertip to support it, that is the problem.

Essay over.


----------



## purple (Apr 12, 2020)

Sometimes just a pillow between your back and the chair can help! I find that if I have to lean too far back or forward to find a "groove" to lean into, it can cause back issues. Buffering the space between my back and the chair with a pillow lets me get the comfort of back support while not leaving it in a bad position for long sessions. Couple of days ago I spent 16 hours straight at my desk and I didn't feel bad at all after, except my butt needed a rest and my knees forgot how to be straight when I was done. Can also help to move monitors and change your chair height to suit you and what makes you comfortable, not the other way around.


----------



## Anders Bru (Apr 13, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> ...
> But I think that part of the reason I don't have any back/shoulder/arm pain from 3+ decades of staring at the screen is an absolute commitment to correct ergonomics. I see many composer's rigs that I know would give me shoulder pain due to the position of computer / music keyboards, desk height, or dreaded touchscreens that require shoulder extension to operate. For me it comes down to a matter of a inches - the desk surface one which the computer keyboard sits MUST be between 29 and 30 inches from the floor, and the music keyboard must be mounted so that the top of the keys is within an inch of being flush to the desk top. That's why I still use a crappy M-Audio Keystation 88es - because it's shallow (front to back) and thin (top to bottom), and why I was momentarily eyeing the Roland A-88mk2.
> ...


I noticed in this video that you don't rest your arms on the desk, but rather on the keyboard (given you still use this setup). Do you not find this painful for your forearms?


----------



## charlieclouser (Apr 13, 2020)

Anders Bru said:


> I noticed in this video that you don't rest your arms on the desk, but rather on the keyboard (given you still use this setup). Do you not find this painful for your forearms?



Not at all. My elbows are resting on the armrests of the Aeron chair, so that takes most of the weight. I've thought about having the top of the M-Audio keyboard turned into a cushioned and leather wrapped rest, like on the front of an SSL console, but never pulled the trigger. The smooth plastic surface is good enough I guess. But you can see why a keyboard controller with knobs and stuff in the middle wouldn't work for me.


----------



## MartinH. (Apr 13, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> I may hold some kind of record. I bought a Herman Miller Aeron within a couple of months after they first came out in 1994. I'd been using $200 "executive" chairs from Staples or Office Depot for a few years and was getting about two years out of each one. This was long before the era of internet shopping, so I went down to the local Herman Miller showroom and paid a ridiculous full-pop price for the Aeron, which at that time came in only one size and one style.
> 
> I still sit on it to this day.
> 
> ...



This was both informative _and_ inspirational, thanks Charlie! 




Anders Bru said:


> I noticed in this video



Cool video, I learned a couple new tricks here as well.




charlieclouser said:


> Not at all. My elbows are resting on the armrests of the Aeron chair, so that takes most of the weight. I've thought about having the top of the M-Audio keyboard turned into a cushioned and leather wrapped rest, like on the front of an SSL console, but never pulled the trigger. The smooth plastic surface is good enough I guess. But you can see why a keyboard controller with knobs and stuff in the middle wouldn't work for me.



I admire your commitment to find the exact solution that works for you. I think that's the way to go, because different people need different setups. You can't just buy an off-the-shelf "best". I used to have armrests, but they pinched the nerves near my elbows, leading to pain in my hands. And the way you sit in your chair would cause me issues with my spine. Sitting reclined feels nice for my back, but it triggers other issues.
You've given me some good food for thought regarding arm extension and shoulders, because I've recently felt a recurring pain in my shoulder and wasn't quite sure where it's coming from. I'll need to watch more closely if I need to rearrange something on my desk.


----------



## Dietz (Apr 13, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> swapped out the original plastic-coated armrest pads for leather-wrapped ones


^^^^^^^^^ This!!


----------



## charlieclouser (Apr 13, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> I think that's the way to go, because different people need different setups. You can't just buy an off-the-shelf "best". I used to have armrests, but they pinched the nerves near my elbows, leading to pain in my hands. And the way you sit in your chair would cause me issues with my spine. Sitting reclined feels nice for my back, but it triggers other issues.
> You've given me some good food for thought regarding arm extension and shoulders, because I've recently felt a recurring pain in my shoulder and wasn't quite sure where it's coming from. I'll need to watch more closely if I need to rearrange something on my desk.



Yes, it's all about finding the right solution for each person's situation - the right angles and extension and all that. I notice that I need to have the Aeron armrests at their highest position - if they're even an inch lower, within an hour I feel that twinge across the top of my shoulders. So it's always a matter of inches.

But I also bounce around the room a lot. I get up, walk around, go sit on the floor with my back leaning up against the couch, lie down on the couch, etc. Rarely do I sit for more than an hour without moving. So maybe that helps.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 13, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> If you get an Aeron, they come in various sizes - make sure to get the correct one. I'm 6' and 190 lbs and the "medium" size is perfect.
> 
> Maximum highest recommendation.



Maximum. I don't remember what year I bought mine, but it was definitely before 2003. Love it.

And ditto about the sizes. I'm a hair over 6' and at my present rate will be back down to 190 by the end of the summer , and for me the large C size is the right one. My legs are proportionally long, though, so that would account for the difference.

I'm with you 100% on everything else you say, including having the arms at full height, although my sliding desktop setup over the keyboard works very well for me and a good 25 other people with the desks I now make.

The touchscreen issue is also right on. I've posted about that before.



charlieclouser said:


> But I think that part of the reason I don't have any back/shoulder/arm pain from 3+ decades of staring at the screen is an absolute commitment to correct ergonomics.



Ergonomics are incredibly important. But I do think a lot of it is also just the luck of the draw.


----------

