# My Adventures in Cultural Appropriation



## Mike Greene (Aug 21, 2022)

I don't mean for this to be a political post, but I think it's amusing, so here goes.

I did a few songs recently for an educational organization. I have a decades-long relationship with them - they don't have much money, but they're really nice people and it's a good cause. Best of all, they give me a ton of freedom, so for one of the songs, I wrote a reggae song. It won't win any Grammys, but for the budget, I think it's pretty cool:
View attachment Reggae Step 2022 - Full Mix.mp3


The singer is a local pro who normally does R&B, but I heard him riffing one day on some reggae, so I thought it would be fun to do this. I do know some real reggae singers, but I didn't think they would sound as good on this one. (Believe it or not, I've done a bunch of reggae songs before, especially back when "Cops" became a thing. Everybody wanted a reggae jingle then.)

Anyway, the client signs off on the songs and we're all good. They ask me to send an invoice, but for the reggae track, they have a question _"from a diversity equity and inclusion perspective."_ Apparently they're under the impression that the singer sings in a reggae band, which I _might_ have implied at some point, although I don't remember saying that. Either way, he doesn't. (At least he's black, though!)

I suspect this isn't actually a big deal to them, and it's more of a situation where they feel like they need to "do the right thing" and ask questions like this. Which I take as my cue to lie, and just tell them what they want to hear. I feel a little bad about it, but I think they would prefer that. They can't afford a re-sing (my time, plus Singer A already got paid the buyout fee), so I know they don't want me to say he's a straight R&B singer. (Or I could really mess with them and say he's a white country singer. With a Confederate flag flying from his pickup.)

This way, if I say, _"Uhhh ... yeah, I'm pretty sure he told me he sings in a band and they do mostly reggae songs,"_ then if the Reggae-Police file a Cultural Appropriation complaint later on, then all the blame shifts to me, which, honestly, at this stage in my career, would be inconsequential.

Anyway, this is the first time I've ever seen this. As composers, our work is off-camera and tends to be low profile (out of any headlines), so I assume this is pretty rare, but I wonder if this is going to become more common. I shudder to think how difficult that could make things.


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## Markrs (Aug 21, 2022)

I liked the track Mike, and it is lovely you do work for an educational organisation that couldn't normally afford it. 

I find cultural appropriation difficult, as all music is appropriated as it changes. I don't think we would want to say only Europeans can play Beethoven and that only Black Americans can play blues. 

Not trying to make a political comment here (if it is a bit off tangent, I'm completely cool to delete it), just struggle with the idea that music isn't universal that anyone can write or perform.


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## KarlHeinz (Aug 21, 2022)

For me its like many things that started out of real need to change injustice and turned into something completely ridiculous sometimes.

In germany there was a concert of a white reggae band that had been closed cause they wear dreadlocks.......

Its like with the political correct naming for me (and some other stuff in this direction), started out of a good intention but turned into something that works completely into the opposite direction cause people simply felt patronized. What counts for me is the intention in the mind of the people and you simply wont change this with all this stuff.

Sometimes I think it might be better to let the people say directly whats in their mind so that you can ask: "hey, do you know what you have said and whats the meaning with this ?"

Wonder if today the label "Black mans Burdon" (and the same album title) for Eric Burdon is stil allowed or have to be changed too (as Marks said: "only Black Americans can play the blues")......


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## szczaw (Aug 21, 2022)

C major (white keys only) is racist. Scales were invented by some monks in Europe, so I suppose any non-European using scales and western tonality, is guilty of cultural appropriation.


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## liquidlino (Aug 21, 2022)

I think music that features violins should only be written and performed by northern Italians. Preferably outrageously attractive ones.









History of the violin - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## Polkasound (Aug 21, 2022)

I'm an honest person, but this would be a rare situation in which I'd lie through my teeth and tell them exactly what they'd want to hear, because it would be the simplest and fastest way of preventing a non-problem from becoming a problem.


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## Kony (Aug 21, 2022)

That's a weird one Mike. The Police were heavily reggae influenced in their earlier years - also a lot of punk had reggae influences. Not sure why it's a problem these days.


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## moon (Aug 22, 2022)

I think cultural appropriation is a bit of a slippery term. Really, there's a matter of intent that needs to be dealt with. Reggae is music that is closely tied to a history of oppression (coming from Rastafari, which was a reaction against British colonial rule and slavery) and is traditionally political. What I gather your employer is asking is if your singer is someone who has a background in the music/is approaching it respectfully, or if he’s putting on a fake Jamaican accent to pastiche/parody (a la Adrien Brody on SNL). I ask the same questions when I hear a choir of a bunch of white people do an African American spiritual, especially if they’re choosing to do dialectal pronunciation (the/de/duh, those/dose, children/chillun, etc). Is this being performed with respect for the culture? And are the performers being mindful of the history of this music? To me, this respect and mindfulness is really at the core of what constitutes cultural appropriation or not.

Regarding European classical music, our musical culture is Eurocentric. We don’t ask these questions about people who play this music because we’ve been playing it for the past 700 years, and most modern music descends from classical in some way or another. Classical is by and large the measure used to assess “serious” musicians, which has been used to enforce classist, racist, and sexist agendas, not the mention the history of classical music being used as a tool in colonialism in order to oppress populations. Given its past and integration into our society, I think it’s unfair to equate it with reggae music.


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## gamma-ut (Aug 22, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> Anyway, this is the first time I've ever seen this. Our work is off-camera and tends to be low profile (out of any headlines), so I assume this is pretty rare, but I wonder if this is going to become more common. I shudder to think how difficult that could make things.


In any institutional environment, there is inevitably a certain amount of "will I lose my job if this goes sour when I could just get someone else to sort it out?" paranoia and that's what's going on here. Cultural appropriation is just a relatively new direction for this kind of thing to manifest itself. 

In reality, the chances of any kind of complaint coming in is pretty low. If you look at the cultural-appropriation cases that have popped up, they have been for high-profile artists who attract a significant number of haters (Iggy Azalea, for example, can't catch a break largely because no-one seems to like her), some comedic escapades (like protesting a kimono exhibition that was actually backed by local Japanese businesses) and some actual cases, like the ceremonial-headdress thing. We haven't yet got to the situation where people make a distinction between the former – and just shrug their shoulders – and the latter.

With a charity or corporation, there is a possibility that an activist group might pick up on something and use it as a wedge but it seems unlikely given you'd probably have to know who was involved to make the complaint in the first place were they so motivated. However, I do see why someone working there wants their back covered.


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## gamma-ut (Aug 22, 2022)

szczaw said:


> Scales were invented by some monks in Europe...


That would be some philosophers in Greece – and almost certainly a distillation of practice around Asia Minor.

The monks definitely ripped off the Greek stuff, and getting half of it backwards for good measure.


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## kgdrum (Aug 22, 2022)

Well I had an experience many years ago that was kind of similar but actually different & was also a bit awkward. A friend of mine who was also a drummer refered me to a reggae band he had been working with as he was going on tour with another band(Kurtis Blow)so he referred me for the gig. 
The entire band were Rastafarian Jamaicans except me a NY white guy. We rehearsed for about 2 or 3 weeks several hours a day 3 or 4 times a week. We were smoking literally and figuratively,the music sounded amazing and we were definitely clicking. The leader of the band who was the singer started to feel guilty that a white drummer was potentially taking a job away from another brother and despite other band members telling him ,it sounded great and they really liked what we were developing musically. The singer felt it was morally and politically incorrect to have me in the band so I was let go. The bass player, & guitarist were pissed off but the singer and keyboard player thought they had to have a black,preferably Jamaican drummer for political correctness and authenticity,this was in 1981 so this unfortunately is nothing new. We like to think music business decisions are determined by the music but unfortunately politcs & events of daily life can also be a contributing factor.


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## szczaw (Aug 22, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> That would be some philosophers in Greece – and almost certainly a distillation of practice around Asia Minor.


Our scales are from the medieval ecclesiastical modes, invented by catholic monks, which themselves were based upon ancient Greek models.


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## gamma-ut (Aug 22, 2022)

szczaw said:


> Our scales are from the medieval ecclesiastical modes, invented by catholic monks, which themselves were based upon ancient Greek models.


This isn't something that bothers me greatly but, nope, the ecclesiastical modes were derived from the Ancient Greek _Greater Perfect System_ scale and simply named after ancient Greek modes that were often quite different to the originals, such as being based on different temperaments.

This is why we have the note names A...G.


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## szczaw (Aug 22, 2022)

moon said:


> Regarding European classical music, our musical culture is Eurocentric. We don’t ask these questions about people who play this music because we’ve been playing it for the past 700 years, and most modern music descends from classical in some way or another. Classical is by and large the measure used to assess “serious” musicians, which has been used to enforce classist, racist, and sexist agendas, not the mention the history of classical music being used as a tool in colonialism in order to oppress populations. Given its past and integration into our society, I think it’s unfair to equate it with reggae music.


A distinction of being a trained classical musician has been used to enforce racism and sexism ? How so ? How was the classical music used to oppress populations ? Classical music is played around the world and there are classical musicians in most nations around the world. Explain to them that they are using the tools of colonialism. They will tell you to seek a therapist.


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## Kony (Aug 22, 2022)

Hadn't occurred to me that the singer was putting on a Jamaican accent - I think this could be problematic.


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## szczaw (Aug 22, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> This isn't something that bothers me greatly but, nope, the ecclesiastical modes were derived from the Ancient Greek _Greater Perfect System_ scale and simply named after ancient Greek modes that were often quite different to the originals, such as being based on different temperaments.
> 
> This is why we have the note names A...G.


I don't know the subject in depth so let's go with Greece. It's Europe and European culture that made huge use of and popularized the scales.


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## Geoff Grace (Aug 22, 2022)

I hope that our goal is no longer a ”separate but equal” world. I desire an integrated society in which everyone is treated equally. An integrated society can’t help but lead to an integrated culture in which you influence me and I influence you.

My skin may be white, but I have been profoundly influenced by African American culture. My piano teacher was African American, my first professional band was mostly African American, and I worked for Michael Jackson off and on for over a decade. Am I supposed to eliminate their influences on me so that I’m not culturally appropriating? It would feel like a denial of my gratitude for their impact on me. I don’t see how I could, even if I wanted to.

I get the intent of this movement, and I agree that exploitation has long been a problem. I just hope that we can find a balance that reduces exploitation without increasing segregation.

Best,

Geoff


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## gamma-ut (Aug 22, 2022)

Geoff Grace said:


> My skin may be white, but I have been profoundly influenced by African American culture. My piano teacher was African American, my first professional band was mostly African American, and I worked for Michael Jackson off and on for over a decade. Am I supposed to eliminate their influences on me so that I’m not culturally appropriating? It would feel like a denial of my gratitude for their impact on me. I don’t see how I could, even if I wanted to.


The reality is music is 90% appropriation. It doesn't work unless there's some kind of recognition by the listener of what came before. 

I think the problem is appropriation gets confused with passing off – it will just take a bit of time for a new balance to be established.


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## Crowe (Aug 22, 2022)

I don't mind making broad political statements.

Cultural appropriation doesn't exist. That would imply you can own culture, and you cannot. Implying otherwise is arrogant and selfish. people can gatekeep and yell all they want, but nobody owns reggae. I really don't understand why humans keep insisting on segregation and making sure differences remain differences.

You really can't fight for a multi-cultural society and in the same breath try to take ownership of culture.


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## Piotrek K. (Aug 22, 2022)

Geoff Grace said:


> I just hope that we can find a balance that reduces exploitation without increasing segregation.


So true. From my perspective current trends (racial based or sexual orientation based) creates more and more divisions and makes our world less and less colourful, harder to navigate and very... artificial. How to live and build culture together when everything seems to be a land mine / trap? We are close to a point where actors will not be allowed to do different accents :/

I just really hate how history (of oppression) is more important and more relevant dozens and hundred years later vs building actual, proper world based on equity today. Reggae connects people (although I'm not a fan). So why not use it to, well, connect people, instead of making fake boundaries of good / bad reggae band setup? Ridiculous.


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## GtrString (Aug 22, 2022)

Unless they want a bill with added expenses for a trip to Jamaica, English tuition for a month, renting a studio ect. I think they should be realistic about what they are paying for. Perfect authenticity doesn't come with a reasonable price tag, as your client should know (they are responsible for what they request and pay others to do).

But is it cultural appropriation to create reggae as a non-native, and make money from it. Yes, I think the definition would apply. We certainly do that a lot in the west. Is it immoral? - maybe. Is it amoral? - maybe. It is illegal? - no.

I find this a difficult concept. We want to do the right thing, but is it right to avoid inspiration from other cultures? To me that sounds like a concept of absolute purity, which makes it more fascist than counter-exploitive..


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## Henu (Aug 22, 2022)

What I don't personally get is that color aspect as a sole qualification.

I mean, say I have this black friend called Jussi who has born in Säynätsalo, Finland and is interested mostly in car engines and fishing. And then I have a white friend called Pekka who has been breathing the reggae music and culture for the last 20 years and lived outside Finland most of his life, performing the music all around the world.

But somehow, Jussi the fisherman is suddenly more qualified to talk about reggae music just because he happens to have a certain skin color despite of actually just being some dufus from the countryside.


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## Crowe (Aug 22, 2022)

Dutch band "Chef's Special" lead singer Joshua Nolet (born in Portugal) has an English, Jamaican accent. It fits the music like a glove and creates a fantastic type of music I've never heard before.

But we better crucify him for cultural appropriation.

I'm glad I've adopted Scottish as one of my main accents. It's singularly suited to scold people and Scots don't give a toss one way or the other.


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## JimDiGritz (Aug 22, 2022)

Kony said:


> Hadn't occurred to me that the singer was putting on a Jamaican accent - I think this could be problematic.


If so , then we should also review every actor who plays a character from _any _region other than the one that they were raised in. Plus almost every UK band should have it's entire catalog pulled because we all (almost all) sing in an American accent.


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## Crowe (Aug 22, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> If so , then we should also review every actor who plays a character from _any _region other than the one that they were raised in. Plus almost every UK band should have it's entire catalog pulled because we all (almost all) sing in an American accent.


Not to mention that (at the very least Dutch) universities and colleges that have English classes fail you if you don't master your adopted accent to a suitable degree. And you're not allowed to have a Dutch accent, so apparently 'Cultural Appropriation' is not only ok, but _required._


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## JimDiGritz (Aug 22, 2022)

GtrString said:


> Unless they want a bill with added expenses for a trip to *Jamaica*, *English tuition for a month*, renting a studio ect. I think they should be realistic about what they are paying for. Perfect authenticity doesn't come with a reasonable price tag, as your client should know (they are responsible for what they request and pay others to do).
> 
> But is it cultural appropriation to create reggae as a non-native, and make money from it. Yes, I think the definition would apply. We certainly do that a lot in the west. Is it immoral? - maybe. Is it amoral? - maybe. It is illegal? - no.
> 
> I find this a difficult concept. We want to do the right thing, but is it right to avoid inspiration from other cultures? To me that sounds like a concept of absolute purity, which makes it more fascist than counter-exploitive..


Careful.. if one was being very uncharitable, and were squinting just hard enough, that could be construed as suggesting that Jamaicans need lessons to sing acceptably in their own national language...


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## Kony (Aug 22, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> If so , then we should also review every actor who plays a character from _any _region other than the one that they were raised in. Plus almost every UK band should have it's entire catalog pulled because we all (almost all) sing in an American accent.


Actually, fair point - I stand corrected!


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## Akarin (Aug 22, 2022)

A bit off-topic but Mike, you have a way with words that I absolutely adore. From your posts to your marketing emails. When do you publish a book about your stories in the industry?


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## gamma-ut (Aug 22, 2022)

Henu said:


> But somehow, Jussi the fisherman is suddenly more qualified to talk about reggae music just because he happens to have a certain skin color despite of actually just being some dufus from the countryside.



This to a large extent this mismatch is the problem Iggy Azalea has faced. The reality is that it's down to people not liking her (and I'm not what you'd call a fan) finding reasons they can publicly justify for criticising her. Because hip-hop has a lot of gatekeepery hangers-on and no-one is going out of their way to defend her with a "is this really a serious problem?", they get traction – at least for a while. It seems to have calmed down now.

No-one tries it on the members of Die Antwoord, probably because they'd get beaten up.


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## b_elliott (Aug 22, 2022)

My turf is a lowly backwater called Nova Scotia. Interestingly we had a brush (a 9 year legal battle) with cultural name appropriation when a certain local distillery named its single malt scotch Glen Breton.
(Fun read here.)





Personally I prefer Bowmore single malt over GlenBreton 10yo; but, if it is at all relatable (unlikely in your case) there is legal precedence.
Cheers, Bill


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## person (Aug 22, 2022)

szczaw said:


> How so ? How was the classical music used to oppress populations ?


Not oppression exactly. But in the USA we avoided teaching real 20th century music history (Jazz) in favor of pretending that atonal composers like Schoenberg for example were actually important. The reason for that is racism. Adorno was a racist.
Compared to visual arts - Picasso and Braque collected African art. Van Gogh and his brother Japanese prints. Mattisse's famous book of cut outs was called what? JAZZ. We all know that the dominant style of the 20th century is African American but you never would never know it based on music history classes. Who is more important historically? Louie Armstrong or Milton Babbitt?


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## person (Aug 22, 2022)

Crowe said:


> You really can't fight for a multi-cultural society and in the same breath try to take ownership of culture.


I like that. Me I want to be able to take inspiration from wherever - without having to first check in with the ethnic police.


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## Crowe (Aug 22, 2022)

person said:


> I like that. Me I want to be able to take inspiration from wherever - without having to first check in with the ethnic police.


In turn, I was vigorously nodding my head to the points you made above. I feel I would've gotten a much more well-rounded music education if my music teachers had bothered to use more Jazz influences, instead of all the classical crap they tried to shove down my throat before I knew any better.

Basically all I do now, including while composing, is based off of Jazz theory. And I only learned who Thelonious Monk was about 5 years ago. So much time wasted.

Oh, but that's cultural appropriation isn't it.


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## nolotrippen (Aug 22, 2022)

As has been pointed out, cultural appropriation is a political thing, made to chastise people who don't need to be chastised. My French Canadian grandma added celery to her spaghetti. Who cares?

But there is one bit of cultural appropriation that is beyond annoying: Der Wienerschnitzel. First, it's Das not Die, and second, they don't make or sell Wienerschnitzel. Never have.


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## gamma-ut (Aug 22, 2022)

nolotrippen said:


> My French Canadian grandma added celery to her spaghetti. Who cares?



As celery is a pretty common in ragu recipes I'm not sure whether this means using celery is cultural appropriation or that adding celery is not culturally appropriate.


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## jbuhler (Aug 22, 2022)

person said:


> Not oppression exactly. But in the USA we avoided teaching real 20th century music history (Jazz) in favor of pretending that atonal composers like Schoenberg for example were actually important. The reason for that is racism. Adorno was a racist.


It seems like you haven't looked at what is actually being taught in our schools—jazz has been included as part of basic music history textbooks since I was in school in the 1980s, and few courses today spend much time at all on serialism and other aspects of high modernism, to the point that you might even claim they are now grossly underrepresented in the teaching of music history compared to the cultural influence they once had, so the musical reactions that formed against high modernism, and are so important to understanding music in the 1970s and beyond (including the crumbling of the walls between the so-called high, middlebrow, and low that was such a part of music culture before), become more or less inscrutable in the context of such a course. You can argue that what is being taught is not being done as it should—and I think there is something to be said about that especially with jazz, but remedying that shortcoming in the kind of course that music history currently is, indeed the whole way music curricula are set up, would be most difficult for all kinds of reasons that only become clear if you work inside large institutions and understand the inertial effects they impose. (And in many ways it makes for better history that jazz often has its own course in addition to whatever attention is given to it in the course given over to covering the history of 20th century music.)

You are also not correct about Adorno, and his critique of jazz is perhaps more on point than it seems. This is not to say that his critique is not highly problematic and troubling, because it is (and he often makes a misappraisal of things in line with how the discourse around jazz framed the musical innovations of jazz in both academic and popular writing at the time, while also setting to the side many things that might better have been centered had he lived in the US, say, when he formulated his critique—he had fled Nazi Germany and was living in England when he published the first of his two major articles on jazz). But his critique troubles rather for different reasons than many suppose. And his critique of Stravinsky or the high modernism of the 1950s and early 60s is as sharp as, if not sharper than, his critique of jazz. My take:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p2ttxhjscqmpv5s/BuhlerFrankfurt.pdf?dl=0.
(Not for the faint of heart: This is full academic writing mode and presumes quite a lot about the stakes of critical theory.)


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## GtrString (Aug 22, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> Careful.. if one was being very uncharitable, and were squinting just hard enough, that could be construed as suggesting that Jamaicans need lessons to sing acceptably in their own national language...


Yes, no harm intended, but the song in question is in english, no?


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## JimDiGritz (Aug 22, 2022)

GtrString said:


> Yes, no harm intended, but the song in question is in english, no?


I intended that comment to point out the inherent challenges in even starting to unpack cultural appropriation.

BTW English is the official language of Jamaica, so Jamaicans wouldn't need English lessons!!!


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## ism (Aug 22, 2022)

My favourite book on the subject:


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 22, 2022)

You could just tell them you'd all smoked way too much mota, mon, to oh wow like notice what color anyone is.

(I like it, by the way.  )


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 22, 2022)

This isn't new, by the way. I was hired to score a short film in the '80s and lost the gig because they needed a Black composer.


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## GtrString (Aug 22, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> I intended that comment to point out the inherent challenges in even starting to unpack cultural appropriation.
> 
> BTW English is the official language of Jamaica, so Jamaicans wouldn't need English lessons!!!


Omg, Im now officially an idiot in more than a handful of areas!! Not qualified for this discussion, sry. I’ll get on and read the Julie Sanders book..


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## Mike Greene (Aug 22, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> This isn't new, by the way. I was hired to score a short film in the '80s and lost the gig because they needed a Black composer.


If it was a short film, then shouldn't they have hired a short composer instead of a black one?

I'll show myself out ...

On another note, I've deleted a number of posts that were getting a bit too argumentative, or too far into the weeds of topics barely related to the opening post. Don't get me wrong, many of the "serious" posts are quite good and belong here. But I don't want to turn this into a battle or grievance thread.


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## ism (Aug 22, 2022)

GtrString said:


> I’ll get on and read the Julie Sanders book..


It really is an excellent read. Not culture wars nonsense, but very thoughtful and textured.


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## NoamL (Aug 22, 2022)

Crowe said:


> I really don't understand why humans keep insisting on segregation and making sure differences remain differences.


Artforms are always steeped in the beliefs, histories, values, and practices of the people who made that art.

So an artform does not "belong" to any one group of people, but rather it exists in a "Stack" of values and beliefs and practices, which may have strong or weak ties "to each other."

Recognizing this isn't about dividing or segregating, but about realizing that any artform is a facet of a larger and more whole thing.

That "stack" of values and practices may be exclusionary ("nobody else can be one of us") but often it's more like - "you just wouldn't get 100% of what this means to us unless you were immersed in everything we do - language, stories, histories, food, songs - for a long time."

I had to write some music featuring a traditional instrument from a culture 8,000 miles away from me, and I did my best to listen to hours of music featuring that instrument and do some transcriptions and figure out what scales they use, and then blend that with my own Western musical style. The end result was musically pleasing, but is it legitimate art? 

Just ask yourself this, "what is art for"???

The answers we instinctively reach for are: art is entertainment. Art is a diversion. Art expresses feelings. Art is an exploration of creativity. So, like, when I attended a summer camp as a kid and made an "Indian dreamcatcher," I just wanted to make something that looked cool and (as the camp counselor encouraged) "Expresses my creativity."

These are individualist and secular answers, but not all cultures are individualist and secular. Either in the past or now.

Dreamcatchers were not (just) about creativity or "expressing yourself" to the people who invented them; neither were cathedrals. When I made a dreamcatcher without being immersed in the "stack" to which it belongs, I wasn't really making a real dreamcatcher.... I think?

A complete segregation of cultures would definitely impoverish all. The Irish jig wasn't invented in Eire (neither was the potato!). But culture is ALSO not just this stuff we can grab off the shelf like laundry detergent. It has baggage.

I think the most secular art is the most portable. As a Jew, my family still hangs Christmas stockings and gives out presents. But we would make a big mistake to think that "everyone can celebrate Christmas." No, everyone can celebrate the part of Christmas that has nothing to do with its serious and religious origins. A Christmas-eve midnight Mass obviously is not something that I can just go and compose.

I guess the *tl'dr of this post* is that when we live in a mix and match culture, we are in danger of overlooking how cultural practices were originally connected to each other, and when we live in a secular culture we are in danger of overlooking the older or deeper meaning of cultural practices.


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## ism (Aug 22, 2022)

And this is actually my second favorite treatment of the subject of appropriation:





Strangely moving.


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## AnhrithmonGelasma (Aug 22, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> No-one tries it on the members of Die Antwoord, probably because they'd get beaten up.


That's not actually true. "Ninja"---real name Watkin Tudor Jones---is from a posh upper class ethnic English background (prep school, etc.) and started putting on the Afrikaner persona after his "Suit and Tie Corporate Rapper" shtick didn't do well enough. They've been criticized for misappropriating and drastically misrepresenting working-class Afrikaner culture. (To be fair, Yolandi is Afrikaner.) Also, for wearing blackface and using racial slurs....


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 22, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> If it was a short film, then shouldn't they have hired a short composer instead of a black one?


If you were tall you wouldn't find that funny.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 22, 2022)

^ (Please don't anyone take that seriously. It's just a dadjoke - one of my worst, and that's saying something.)


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## AnhrithmonGelasma (Aug 22, 2022)

AnhrithmonGelasma said:


> That's not actually true. "Ninja"---real name Watkin Tudor Jones---is from a posh upper class ethnic English background (prep school, etc.) and started putting on the Afrikaner persona after his "Suit and Tie Corporate Rapper" shtick didn't do well enough. They've been criticized for misappropriating and drastically misrepresenting working-class Afrikaner culture. (To be fair, Yolandi is Afrikaner.) Also, for wearing blackface and using racial slurs....


And for this too: "sparked outrage over the duo's album artwork ... saying that the duo should be taken to Human Right's Commission for being "disrespectful" to Xhosa culture. 

The picture shows Ninja... wearing a hat and blanket that is used during traditional Xhosa circumcision ceremonies.

Die Antwoord has no knowledge of what the abakhwetha blanket represents and what symbolism it holds, and as such their cover art is an affront to amaXhosa and they should know that they cannot simply appropriate the traditions of others...

... Their use of the n-word"



https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2017/06/28/die-antwoord-continues-to-offend-and-outrage-south-africans-thro_a_23005690/


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## tmhuud (Aug 22, 2022)

I was hired by NASA to do a RAP song as an intro to a documentary. Had to use educational words instead of the usual. But i'm just some dumb white guy. What do I know......


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## givemenoughrope (Aug 22, 2022)

person said:


> Not oppression exactly. But in the USA we avoided teaching real 20th century music history (Jazz) in favor of pretending that atonal composers like Schoenberg for example were actually important. The reason for that is racism. Adorno was a racist.
> Compared to visual arts - Picasso and Braque collected African art. Van Gogh and his brother Japanese prints. Mattisse's famous book of cut outs was called what? JAZZ. We all know that the dominant style of the 20th century is African American but you never would never know it based on music history classes. Who is more important historically? Louie Armstrong or Milton Babbitt?


Maybe it wasn't worth studying until it was. Any comments Adorno made about Jazz were closer to when it was called "Jass" and decades before Hard Bop, Joe Henderson, Coltrane incorporating Slonimsky, Warne Marsh etc. He objected to it as dance music and being a product. But whatever makes you feel good.


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## micrologus (Aug 22, 2022)

There is a debate on this here in Switzerland:
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/how-a-...d-to-question-cultural-appropriation/47789954


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## Piotrek K. (Aug 23, 2022)

micrologus said:


> There is a debate on this here in Switzerland:
> https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/how-a-...d-to-question-cultural-appropriation/47789954


This is so sad. Imagine a world in which we can't cook food that doesn't originate from our countries and we can't mix and match ingredients from all over the world because someone says it's not proper.

Here is a quote from not-so-wise man and huge fan of food, I just changed "love" to "culture" and it somehow - in very peculiar way - sums my thoughts about what culture should be about:

_It is a culture based on giving and receiving as well as having and sharing. And the culture that they give and have is shared and received. And through this having and giving and sharing and receiving, we too can share and love and have and receive. _


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## jonnybutter (Sep 7, 2022)

Not that anyone asked:

I would tell the org that they can take the track or leave it. 

You can make the argument that they are well meaning, but being well-meaning in this case, as in so many others, has a marginal cost of close to zero. In fact, this is the kind of thing liberals do to asusage their consciences without actually doing anything substantive - and FWIW I say this from the left, not right. If by “appropriate” we mean “steal”, then it’s simply wrong (e.g. Xhosa ppl’s symbols, Pat Boone, Morris Levy). 

But the hard truth is that even the fruits of cultural appropriation and oppression - and in some cases, what could be called ‘theft’ - become detached from their origins at some point. It gets into the realm art - of melodies and stories and imagination - and thereby transcends politics, precisely because all humans can understand it and potentially make it their own. Especially true with non verbal art, like music. 

Unless you prefer your culture inert (dead) - e.g. Jazz, Epic Latin poetry - the implications of this purportedly well-meaning concern are bad. Art and culture are *about* blending - true with language, and food, and of course music. Music, particularly rhythm, is something every human being in the world can understand and relate to. Culture mutates or dies, and those are the only two choices. There is nothing wrong with preserving something which has stopped growing, but there is a distinction between that and dynamic culture.

Here’s a strange implication of this libero-literalist idea of cultural appropriation: every pop/folk music in the Western Hemisphere is a crime, i.e. appropriated, including Afro cuban, Jazz/Blues/R+B/Rock, Samba, etc. etc. because the Western Hemisphere is mostly ex-slaveocracies. So, do we have to disavow all of that music? Even among results of an abomination like slavery, the culture blending still produced something beautiful. This is because all human beings are essentially imaginative. No one is essentially a race or a nationality, or other group - we are all funcionally very similar indeed.

Now, conservatives will argue that the result we have today (Jazz, Rock, etc) means that slavery and oppression aren’t all bad. But this one of their usual rhetorical tricks: the ignoble lie, i.e. using a truth to tell a lie. The cultural gems we have from former slavocracies are there *in spite* of slavery and oppression, not essentially because of them. It is the blending that produces the dynamic art, not the oppression and racism.

It can make you look slightly (or very) ridiculous to purely imitate any style of music. Purists tend to be boring, and yes, a white guy singing about ‘dem cotton fields’ is likely going to be offensive, and pathetic. So, are The Rolling Stones, particularly in their early days, slightly (or very) ridiculous? Let’s face it, they kind of were/are! But is that *all* they are? I am not a particular fan of RS, but I think the answer is ‘no’ - they are a hybrid. 

And furthermore, the people they ‘appropriated’ - Muddy Waters, John Lee Hooker et. al. - were pleased that all these English dorks loved their tradition and their music, b/c it wasn’t appreciated in their own country. Today’s ‘well meaning’ liberals would have frowned on it, but finally, in the 1960s and ‘70s, these innovators got some of the recognition and *money* they deserved, and the tradition the respect it deserved. It’s an absurd way to go about getting these things, but today’s cheesy committee-approach is even worse, because the hybrids wouldn’t even exist. No Rock music, no Jazz, no Samba, no Salsa, etc. 

Culture is ambivalent. There is no ‘arc of justice’ or whatever the phrase is. Culture can get worse or better. But the human imagination in a sense sanctifies it.

I certainly don’t feel qualified to direct the course of art and culture, but it’s not too hard to improve on past attempts, like Stalin’s or Franco’s - or some parts of Academia, or do gooder liberal committtees. “Just let things happen” does less harm than these other approaches. Reject and own up to racism, fight for justice for ordinary people - yes. But decide what can and can’t be art? I don’t think so.


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## mat1 (Sep 7, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> I don't mean for this to be a political post, but I think it's amusing, so here goes.
> 
> I did a few songs recently for an educational organization. I have a decades-long relationship with them - they don't have much money, but they're really nice people and it's a good cause. Best of all, they give me a ton of freedom, so for one of the songs, I wrote a reggae song. It won't win any Grammys, but for the budget, I think it's pretty cool:
> View attachment Reggae Step 2022 - Full Mix.mp3
> ...



Nice track!

I'm sure they don't really care but I think it's fair that they should make *some* effort to include those truly steeped in the music and culture. 

It seems to be the norm these days in composer groups I'm in online. When people need some sort of "ethnic" music they make the effort to go to the source. I don't know if that is from internal or external pressure and I'm sure it's a bit more work but sharing the wealth is a good thing.


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## David Cuny (Sep 7, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> "from a diversity equity and inclusion perspective."


They're really not asking about diversity or inclusion, or they would be asking about the composition of your team on all the other music you're providing.

I suspect the issue is that your singer sounds _too much_ like a Jamaican - for example, with the laugh on the intro.

So what happens if someone says that's culturally insensitive? As an organization that relies on goodwill, it's not a chance they'd want to take.

But if they can say that it is an "authentic" reggae singer, they're in the clear. No parody, no cultural insensitivity, no potential PR mess to deal with.


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## jonnybutter (Sep 7, 2022)

David Cuny said:


> They're really not asking about diversity or inclusion, or they would be asking about the composition of your team on all the other music you're providing.
> 
> I suspect the issue is that your singer sounds _too much_ like a Jamaican - for example, with the laugh on the intro.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, that sounds both absurd and totally plausible. Do we now have to have a little twitter outrage about Bobby McFerrin having sounded vaguely Caribbean on “Don’t Worry Be Happy”? And you know, Harry Belafonte was an American, not a real, full Jamaican - and Wikipedia tells me he had two ‘white’ grandparents, too. Didn’t he know he was being insensitive when he sang “Day-O”?. Thank god we’re so much smarter now. 

I have no sympathy for the fake rage about ‘wokeness’ in the US - it’s mostly just ppl mad about being criticized, usually because they acted like assholes (their ideal world: they dish it out, and everyone else takes it); and now it’s just the reactionary buzzword of the moment. But what we’re talking about in this tread not only doesn’t really help anyone who is at a disadvantage, but it makes everything stupider, and I think even forestalls meaningful change some, because it ‘stands in’ for it. “We’re _really doing_ something now - we made sure the singer on our promo...”

I used to make local radio commercials many years ago, and I remember the owner of a mini golf course calling me up all excited: he’d had an epiphany about the tagline for his commercial, and wanted me to be the first to hear it: [drumroll] “Mini golf: An Alternative to Something to Do”. 😂 

This sort of granular representational policing is an alternative to something to do - an alternative to politics, to actually doing anything.


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## Mike Greene (Sep 7, 2022)

Jonny, you're right regarding how things _should_ be, but David painted the picture of what's probably going on.

It's the times we live in, where companies (or in this case, a charity) have to cover their bases. If the Jamaican Pride Alliance (I'm making this up) has a friend at a local news station and they make a fuss, then there won't be an actual debate, it will simply be a mess for my client. Even if most viewers think the complaint us insane, it's still a problem.

So if they can say, _"But it's a real reggae artist!"_, then they have the defense that they acted in good faith and the problem goes away. Ounce of prevention and all that.


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## NekujaK (Sep 7, 2022)

Remember back in the 1950s when record labels released Pat Boone covers of Fats Domino songs because major radio stations, that catered primarily to white audiences, refused to play black artists? THAT'S cultural approriation, the kind that should be called out and stopped.

But nowadays, there is so much cross-pollenation and awareness of diversity in art and culture, that IMHO it's usually knee-jerk reactionaryism to throw around the label of "cultural appropriation" just because a person of one ethnicity is creating art that was originated by another ethnic or racial group. Can't we all just get along?

I understand why the charity needs to cover its bases given the prevailing climate. And I understand the importance of being respectful of everyone. But this can be a very nuanced issue, and unfortunately, people just paint with brightly colored broad strokes these days.

Sorry... didn't mean to slip into the ranting zone, augmented with pedantic metaphors. Feel free to delete this post as appropriate


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## R.G. (Sep 7, 2022)

If I were hired to compose a Reggae song, I would change my official 8 x 10 to this for the next few months just to be safe:


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 28, 2022)

3 minutes of reggae feels like 10 mins. The same 3 mins of hybrid orchestral feels like 3 seconds. Cool stuff Mike


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## tressie5 (Oct 24, 2022)

Recently, I've been networking to improve my views on Spotify and YouTube. It's interesting how I'm encountering all these white reggae, rap, and house music artists. I'm guessing there are pockets here and there of black folks who resent the appropriation, but in this day and age, they're probably in the minority.


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## Henu (Oct 24, 2022)

tressie5 said:


> house music


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## yvez (Oct 24, 2022)

here is a filipino reggae type of music:

you see the song is about history, not just about bitchez and guns...


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## Kslovelace (Oct 24, 2022)

Don’t want to come off as insensitive but, there is a point where all of this becomes a little ridiculous. A creator or artist should be free to express themselves (for the sake of making art) however they choose or with what ever tools they have available to them. 

If you were already paid the buyout fee, you should have just told them the truth. And let them struggle with their own moral quandary. 

We are going to hit a wall one day where we need to start asking ourselves “how far is too far?” And we are only hurting ourselves in the long run but lying about it or participating in it. 

I already have to do a 360 take of my surroundings before I can open my mouth in fear of offending anyone. Don’t tell me I’m going to have to start relegating writing time of music in certain genres to a small corner of my basement with headphones on for the same reason.


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 24, 2022)

I find this pretty scary stuff, and I'm glad this isn't the backyard where I need to make a living. When you are treading on eggshells all the time how on earth are you supposed to be creative ?

There seems to be almost an industry built up around 'offence', and it reminds me of the state of the USSR at the height of the Cold War, where citizens were perpetually in fear of traducing the unwritten rules of the state, and horror of horror, being seen to criticise the party. Neighbours informing on neighbours for the delight of seeing them get into trouble. 

The thing is, I get the sense that most people think this kind of thing is slightly ridiculous, but feel they have to pay lip service to the orthodoxy as it's just too much trouble and potentially ruinous to go against it. Personally, I think it's rather an over-correction.

All one can do is to hope it will burn itself out.


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## Mike Greene (Oct 24, 2022)

Michael Antrum said:


> The thing is, I get the sense that most people think this kind of thing is slightly ridiculous, but feel they have to pay lip service to the orthodoxy as it's just too much trouble and potentially ruinous to go against it.


I think so, too, and in the case of my client, they're in the non-profit world, where chances of running into the over-woke is high, so they're just protecting themselves from the risk of having to do cleanup later on. I doubt _they_ actually care, and I suspect this was more a matter of risk assessment.



Kslovelace said:


> If you were already paid the buyout fee, you should have just told them the truth. And let them struggle with their own moral quandary.



The consequences can be real, though. This client could lose funding if the right people became offended. For that matter, I lost an advertiser who was upset over how I handled the Christian Henson thing. Crazy, but this stuff really happens.

To be clear, I don't really care about the advertiser (we have 60 others), so it's no big deal. But in the case of my client, they can't be as cavalier about it, and they're in no position to do battle and make enemies. It's much easier, and more importantly, much safer, to simply play the game and have Mike give them the insurance they need.


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## rrichard63 (Oct 24, 2022)

@Mike Greene, unless I am missing something (and I miss a lot of things), doesn't this very public discussion of your quandary make telling your client any fibs/white lies/half-truths extremely risky? If someone wants to challenge the client's use of your work, this thread would give them a lot of ammunition. There's enough detail here to make identification of the song pretty straightforward.


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## Mike Greene (Oct 24, 2022)

rrichard63 said:


> @Mike Greene, unless I am missing something (and I miss a lot of things), doesn't this very public discussion of your quandary make telling your client any fibs/white lies/half-truths extremely risky? If someone wants to challenge the client's use of your work, this thread would give them a lot of ammunition. There's enough detail here to make identification of the song pretty straightforward.


Great question, but even assuming this could ever get to the stage where that kind of detective work would be involved (which would be pretty incredible for a project as low-profile as this), it wouldn't matter. The client is absolved, because they took my answer in good faith. In fact, they made the effort to "do the right thing" by asking, so they're golden.

The only guilty party here is me, but I'm not consequential enough to be much of a target. Plus honestly, given the silliness of all this, I would kind of enjoy the social media outrage.


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## LatinXCombo (Oct 24, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> Great question, but even assuming this could ever get to the stage where that kind of detective work would be involved (which would be pretty incredible for a project as low-profile as this), it wouldn't matter. The client is absolved, because they took my answer in good faith. In fact, they made the effort to "do the right thing" by asking, so they're golden.
> 
> The only guilty party here is me, but I'm not consequential enough to be much of a target. Plus honestly, given the silliness of all this, I would kind of enjoy the social media outrage.


As a brown-skinned "person of color" for whom these tortuous exercises in diversity and inclusion are allegedly supposed to benefit, I can only hope that you're right when you assume that answering questions and acting in good faith will absolve you of anything if someone finds it profitable to target you because of the coloration of your skin in future related to this event.

As a technologist, I can say that finding stuff posted publicly by a specific individual is not difficult, and it's even easier if they post under their own name and the name of their company. 

As a musician, I am repelled by, and will fight anyone who wants to restrict what artists can create.

Good luck.


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## rrichard63 (Oct 24, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> The client is absolved, because they took my answer in good faith.


I hope so, but I'm not sure. Would your client's documented good faith efforts really be enough to keep them out of the crossfire? These situations can get very emotional.


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## fakemaxwell (Oct 24, 2022)

If somebody came onto this forum and wrote up a post about how orchestral samples have made real string players obsolete, there would be 10 million words written in opposition. Real players have trained for their whole life to play as well as they do, there's no emotional depth to samples, there's no possible way to record every articulation that is possible for a real player to perform, you can discuss intent and meaning behind every bow stroke...

But once it's about a singer's accent all of that goes out of the window in favor of "I won't submit to the wOkE mOb"? Does authenticity only apply to a bunch of wood glued together?


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 24, 2022)

rrichard63 said:


> @Mike Greene, unless I am missing something (and I miss a lot of things), doesn't this very public discussion of your quandary make telling your client any fibs/white lies/half-truths extremely risky? If someone wants to challenge the client's use of your work, this thread would give them a lot of ammunition. There's enough detail here to make identification of the song pretty straightforward.


You know Mike - They'll never take him alive.......


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## Henu (Oct 25, 2022)

fakemaxwell said:


> But once it's about a singer's accent all of that goes out of the window in favor of "I won't submit to the wOkE mOb"?


If you read what many people wrote earlier, you would had noticed it wasn't about that at all. 

For me, claiming someone else to be more "authentic" based on his/her skin color or - god forbid- English accent is pure racism, no matter the intentions behind this trainwreck of thought.


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## Crowe (Oct 25, 2022)

fakemaxwell said:


> If somebody came onto this forum and wrote up a post about how orchestral samples have made real string players obsolete, there would be 10 million words written in opposition. Real players have trained for their whole life to play as well as they do, there's no emotional depth to samples, there's no possible way to record every articulation that is possible for a real player to perform, you can discuss intent and meaning behind every bow stroke...
> 
> But once it's about a singer's accent all of that goes out of the window in favor of "I won't submit to the wOkE mOb"? Does authenticity only apply to a bunch of wood glued together?


You're absolutely right though, I will definitely not use any string library not played in by Italian white folk who can trace back their lineage to the 16th century.


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## C.R. Rivera (Oct 25, 2022)

While late to this discussion, as a historian I do a lot of "soundscapes" based on Ancient Greek myths and history. I have not yet received any complaint from the semi-awake divinities on Mount Olympus about this multi-cultural/multi-racial NON-Ancient Greek noise-maker! YMMV


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## Nigel Andreola (Oct 25, 2022)




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