# Greece, what's YOUR opinion?



## nikolas (Jun 30, 2011)

My first political thread here? OMG! :D

So... I was just curious of how the rest of the world, the real world not politicians, feel about Greece. What are the news that are breaking through, what's your opinion, what do you feel has gone wrong (or right God forbid! :D), and so on...

I'm fine, my family and loved ones are fine, there's no riots all around Greece, just the centre of Athens and all that clouded with tear gas and the gas of stupidity... :-/ 

I'll spare you with my own opinion on the matter just now, since I'm right in the middle and probably know more about this than the rest of you, but I'm really curious to see what do YOU think about this whole deal.


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## midphase (Jun 30, 2011)

Sorry...was distracted by the news that Justin Timberlake just bought MySpace....what's going on in Greece?


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## nikolas (Jun 30, 2011)

He did? Fuck Greece... where's the link?


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## midphase (Jun 30, 2011)

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/gossip/ ... llion.html


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## sin(x) (Jun 30, 2011)

I don't have enough knowledge of the situation to form a qualified opinion what was the primary cause of the crisis, or whether the new austerity package addresses the right problems. But please do write about it! I always appreciate reading first-hand accounts of what's happening in the world – I firmly believe that being able to bypass the media spin and listen to affected people directly is one of the greatest things the 21st century has brought us.

On the subject of media spin, I suspect that pretty much all reports of violent protests in other European national media are blown out of proportion, if just because that's the usual principle on which they operate. In German media, many reports fall on a spectrum between “Greece will probably return to the drachma and the entire currency union will go kaput” (liberal) through “ZOMG, the Greeks are burning down their beautiful country!” (mainstream) all the way to “the Greeks have taken our hard-earned money!!1” (degenerate right-wing yellow press). The latter being especially embarrassing not just because of the obvious xenophobia, but also considering the fact that Germany, being an economy that relies heavily on exports, benefits in no small way from keeping other EU countries solvent by any means.

In any way, glad to hear you and your family are pulling through. Do tell about your view on the issue and how it affects your everyday life when you have time.


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## lux (Jun 30, 2011)

Justin Timberlake is greek?

anyway...your opinion on the matter counts, as we hear lot of bullshit about Greece those days.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Jun 30, 2011)

From what I gathered, one of the reasons why Greece is in such trouble to start with, is that there is an 80% fraud on filing taxes.
Everyone cheats.
It appears that once asked to face the consequences, very much like the french, the greeks go o the streets...

You just can't have your cake and eat it to (or as they say in french: "avoir le beurre et l'argent du beurre)

Time to wake up


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## JonFairhurst (Jun 30, 2011)

I was in Athens last year and in Madrid just a few months ago. When people talk about Greece and Spain both being in economic difficulty, the situation on the ground is quite different.

Personally, I enjoyed visiting Athens and found the people there to be neutral to nice. The situation in the city was sad though. On my free day, I took a walk to the Olympic Village. It's near a harbor and I expected there to be restaurants and shops. Instead, the area is in disrepair. There are rusting hulks half submerged in the water. Trash was piled up. On the walk back to the hotel, I saw a dead cat in the gutter. I brought a video camera hoping to show how cool Athens was. I didn't have the heart to make a film of what I saw.






There were riots when I was there. We heard people march by the hotel, but that was about it. It was very localized.

Regarding fraud, I got ripped off by the cabbie at 5am on the way back to the airport. I gave him 100 Euros and he swapped it for a 10. With my luggage in the trunk, he visibly dared me to challenge him. I paid the extortion money. Lesson learned. Pay at the trunk after you have your luggage and state the value of the cash as you hand it to the driver.

Madrid was totally different. It was clean, vibrant, and friendly. You can get anywhere in the city for a Euro. To get to the airport costs two Euros. The situation is Spain seems to be limited to bad banking practice.





I really hope that Greece can turn is around. Aside from the cabby, I liked the people there, and the history is amazing. I hope the fraud can be reduced and that Greece can thrive.


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## sin(x) (Jun 30, 2011)

Patrick de Caumette @ 2011-06-30 said:


> From what I gathered, one of the reasons why Greece is in such trouble to start with, is that there is an 80% fraud on filing taxes.



Where does that number come from? According to this source, the size of the Greek shadow economy was estimated at around 25% of the GBP in 2007. Which is ugly, but not that far off from other EU countries. I'm fairly sure it didn't rise to 80% during the last 4 years.


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## Dave Connor (Jun 30, 2011)

You don't have to be Einstein to know that governments that get on the hook for a lot of money owed to it's people get into trouble without a continuous growth of their economy. Even with a thriving economy the deals struck are often unrealistic and unsustainable under any circumstances. California is in big trouble financially for that very reason. The state worker pensions alone are completely insane and out of balance.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 30, 2011)

Beg to differ, Dave. In CA the problem is that we had a worldwide financial crash and are going through a shitty economy that has resulted in lowered tax revenues. You can't blame the state workers, as the Republicans want us to do. That's part of their lying, greedy PR strategy to create their dream world of a few gated communities and lots of ghettos: pit union workers against non-union ones - instead of focusing the blame where it belongs (which is mainly on Wall St. piggies).

The main problem isn't the deals, it's that the tax revenues are down, in other words - not that our budget hasn't been out of balance, of course. But that's because we're never allowed to consider raising taxes, not because of too much spending on good things that make life worth living.

My daughter's school is having to fire 20 teachers. The two I know of - the ones in her Magnet program - are really, really good. And of course the f-ing state Republicans are blocking Jerry Brown from putting it to the voters whether we want to maintain the temporary sales tax increase in order to put the budget in balance.

The Republican party is the biggest program facing our country.

Nikolas, my opinion about the austerity in Greece is the same as always: it's only going to make things worse. At this point there isn't any good answer, though, other than to leave the Euro in order to devalue your currency...which of course is also disastrous.


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## Dave Connor (Jun 30, 2011)

Nick, I've had extensive discussions with folks who know the CA system and how it's actually gamed with people retiring at 50 years old at FULL pension and then going on and setting up another with a different state job. It's a huge problem with totally unrealistic numbers. It goes way back when these sweetheart deals were struck with no thought to the future.


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## midphase (Jun 30, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Jun 30 said:


> And of course the f-ing state Republicans are blocking Jerry Brown from putting it to the voters whether we want to maintain the temporary sales tax increase in order to put the budget in balance.



I dunno about you, but I'm kinda annoyed that now Cali is charging sales tax for Amazon orders.


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## germancomponist (Jun 30, 2011)

The Germans spend so much more Euros for greece, but the reason is not to help greece, but to help the Euro...... . 
The Euro never was good for the folk, but for the big banks and companies. It will end in a nightmare scenario.


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## lux (Jun 30, 2011)

Jon, your description of Athens is true and missing at the same time.

Greece is probably one of the most beautiful places i've ever seen in my life. I've been in ionian isles, Various cities, Cyclades, Sporades, Lesbo, Crete, Rodi

I'll tell without any intention to dismiss your feelings or to sound unrespectful of your nationality, but my take is that it has much to do with the fact youre American. Greece has exactly this aspect, most of times it looks like dismission to people coming from far places. Americans are usually very demanding for services, organization, scheduling. I've seen that so many times, and most of people coming from your country which i've encoutered in Greece werent having much fun. Things at times become uncomprensible probably, i can see that.

As an italian maybe i share more with Greeks. I've spent evenings with my hosts, in their houses, where people couldnt speak an english word (go figure italian) and still we were perfectly understand eachother.

I take with me every second i've spent in greece and theyre some of the warmest and most tender memories i have. I'm just waiting for my kids to get a bit more grown so to take again my hot, long, tiresome, at times stressing, but heartfelt usual trip to Greece.

Luca


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## nikolas (Jun 30, 2011)

Ok...

Here goes my take now! :D

First of, sadly Jon is right. Right now the mainy Greek harbor (Peiraous (SP)) is shut off, because of a strike. And strike in Greece means that they can shut down whatever the hell they want. For example a strike of the main (and only thus far) power supply company simply means that they close down the factories in order for people to lose the power supply for a few hours. YAY for fun!

Then there's this whole idea that "We're better than the rest". Sadly this IS the case and it comes down to everything. In fact we Greek think that we're better than the law makers, we think we're better than the rest of the Europe, we think that we can outsmart traffic lights, or tax services, etc... The reason for that is quite simple: The politicians themselves think of that and they keep stealing what they can. And since all of us know perfectly well that taxes won't go back to the people in terms of services we just piss on them.

What a nice country, huh?

______________________

The current situation is ugly.

I'm actually quite lucky in this and I'm doing quite alright in terms of work, money, health etc, but others aren't (my wife is an architect and out of a job for the past year or so).

It's ugly because deep inside me I'm almost happy for 90% of the measures of the austerity. And it's ugly because the sad truth is that only 40% of those measures will go through. The rest will be stopped by either constant strikes, backdoor deals and other scumbug stuff... 

Everybody's talking about tax evation. Yup it's true. I don't think I know a single person who's not lied to the tax offices! But they are NOT getting caught. I mean it's apples + apples for tax, isn't it? An example:

I claim that I made 30,000 the past year. Then I claim that I spent 10,000 in mortage for my home, another 6,000 for rent, and another 4,000 for National Insurance. And incidently I also claim that I've spent 20,000 in grocery shops and stuff (going out, gas, etc). Something wrong, ain't there? Yet nobody is knocking on my door to bust my lies! NOBODY! 

So the easy solution for the government is to hack the people they already "own", the civil workers and the pentioners. And they suffer beyond doubt! But they also have a job, they still have a job, which currently they can't lose. They are civil workers for life! And the dream of 80% of young Greeks who can't help themselves anywhere else.

_____________________

The riots are somewhat small. They are taking place in central Athens and the around areas. Not the whole of Athens. They are being shown totally out of proportions, and for very good reason: Everybody is dealing with the riots instead of the laws that are being cooked up right now! (see? I'm also getting into the habbit of knowing everything about everything and making guesses about things I know nothing about).

__________________________

Bottom point for me: I'm a freelancer and always have been one, out of choice and not of necessity. I strongly believe in the individual value of each one of us and I have to blame me first and my family second before I go on blaming others. There's a law about not smoking inside restaurants. Yet I've never called in to let the authorities know about certain places that this law is being bypassed. Some restaurants don't even offer an invoice/receipt! Even though I could use it, I don't ask for it because "Oh... never mind, we won't come back here" (until next time).

I'm happy to be here, I'm really happy. I'm with my whole family, and Greece IS a lovely place. I'm a very open minded and positive person and I do think that we can come out of this deal in better terms. If not I can always use my PhD (which I can't use in Greece btw), to teach in the rest of the world. :D


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## JonFairhurst (Jun 30, 2011)

Hi Luca,

No disrespect taken. I would have loved to have visited the Greek Isles. And I really did like the area near the Parthenon, where we stayed.

That said, the Olympic Village area was tragic. I loved watching the games in Athens, and to see the barbed wire, garbage, and graffiti was heartbreaking. I had one day free of meetings, and of all places, I went there.

I think my view wasn't colored because of being from the US, but was colored because of limited free time and choosing the wrong venue. It was like looking at Greece through a straw that was poorly aimed.

Still, Madrid felt like a polar opposite. At the Parque the Retiro there are a large number of classical statues - an no graffiti on any of them. I saw a city worker with a toothbrush and razor blade carefully removing a sticker from a lamp pole. This was in stark contrast to the piles of garbage I saw in Athens. That dead cat in the street had been rotting for days. 

But, again, I liked the people and wish them well. I didn't have the heart to create a documentary with my camera about the story that presented itself to me - which was a story that I did not expect to find.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 30, 2011)

Okay Dave, there may be sweetheart deals. But that is not why the state is in trouble.

My reaction is because of what's going on in Wisconsin and other places. The Republican strategy is to get public and private and union and nonunion workers fighting one another as a distraction from what's really going on.

Have I mentioned how much I despise the f-ers?


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## lux (Jun 30, 2011)

There are Republicans in Greece?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 30, 2011)

Kays, nobody likes to pay taxes, and charging sales tax on Amazon orders is a desperation measure.

But there are many things I like far less: young, innovative teachers getting fired from my daughter's school; public parks closing; UC fees going up...and so on.

We're going to have another generation of teabag morons.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 30, 2011)

There are Republicans everywhere.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 30, 2011)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/01/us/01prison.html?hp

It's everywhere.


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## germancomponist (Jun 30, 2011)

Greece is a victim of speculators, a victim of rigged results of rating agencies, which pursue their own goals! Very sadly!


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 30, 2011)

germancomponist @ 30/6/2011 said:


> Greece is a victim of speculators, a victim of rigged results of rating agencies, which pursue their own goals! Very sadly!



See also Iceland, Ireland, etc, etc.


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## germancomponist (Jun 30, 2011)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Jun 30 said:


> germancomponist @ 30/6/2011 said:
> 
> 
> > Greece is a victim of speculators, a victim of rigged results of rating agencies, which pursue their own goals! Very sadly!
> ...



+1


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 30, 2011)

See also the documentary Inside Job.


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## bdr (Jun 30, 2011)

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/op ... 6085141997


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## Hannes_F (Jun 30, 2011)

nikolas, I think you are an adornment to your country. As somebody who has seen and lived in other countries your horizon is broader and Greece would loose a lot if people like you with the potential to put things into proportion were forced to leave your country!

I see how one can be quite sarcastic about the Euro and say that everybody is only seeking his own benefit. I believe especially political commentators will argue like that if this is compatible to their own personal school of thought.

However I see how greek restaurants here (in Germany) launch a "thank you" campaign with free gyros and ouzo for all the support because they know and see how people work hard and long and pay their tax in order to enable it. While these mutual gestures may be in the minoritiy those are that I appreciate and that really make a difference in terms of humanity.

That being said I guess greek shipping company owners could bail out their country with one finger tip. As I hear they are currently not paying any tax at all despite being among the biggest in the world.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 30, 2011)

> See also Iceland, Ireland, etc, etc.



And a good part of the rest of the world.

Ireland is a great example proving that austerity doesn't work. It's going to make the Greek situation worse.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Jun 30, 2011)

sin(x) @ Thu Jun 30 said:


> Patrick de Caumette @ 2011-06-30 said:
> 
> 
> > From what I gathered, one of the reasons why Greece is in such trouble to start with, is that there is an 80% fraud on filing taxes.
> ...



to be honest, this is a figure that i believe i heard/read once a while back.
Take it with a grain of salt...
But the loss of yearly revenue due to tax evasion in Greece is very significant and a major factor in the current economic situation they currently are in.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 30, 2011)

bdr:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/201 ... log480.jpg

The real problem is that we had a simultaneous worldwide housing crash.


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## bsound76 (Jun 30, 2011)

While CA certainly has some silly things going on for state employees, that's going to be true for anyone working for the government in pretty much any state.

While I object to some of the advantages that state employees have , it can't be the primary or even a very significant cause of the fiscal issues. People would like for us to believe that state employees are the root of the issues we are having, but that really just doesn't make any sense. Government employees are just an easy and popular target.


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## JohnG (Jun 30, 2011)

The New York Times focuses on the scale and ubiquity of tax cheats in Greece: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world ... asion.html

I've heard it argued that the austerity measures are stopgaps that mask a more systemic threat to the Euro.

This article from Al Jazeera, for example, concludes that the austerity measures as a practical matter, cannot be implemented. 

I agree. Once the pain hits hard, voters may throw out this government and elect a new one that repeals these measures or even jumps out of the Euro. If that were to happen, at least two major French banks could go under (they are exposed heavily to Greek assets directly, and also by owning large stakes in Greek banks), there could be speculative runs on Irish, Spanish, Portuguese, even Italian financial markets. And that would be a terrible outcome for everyone -- workers and little people included.

Al Jazeera: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europ ... 40607.html


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 30, 2011)

My understanding is that it's really the loans contingent on the austerity that are stopgaps - or is that what you're saying? Every talking head economist I've heard - across the spectrum - says the only question is when they're going to default.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/0 ... e-eurocan/


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 30, 2011)

And I've read far more dire predictions of what might happen if Greece were to leave the Euro.


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## nikolas (Jun 30, 2011)

First of all there is no direct line for Greece to leave the Euro, or any country at that. Everybody keeps repeating that Greece should perhaps go back to drachmas, but the sheer fact is that it simply can't. There never was any research or laws done to permit such an issue taking place.

There is a huge issue, for me, in the delaying of Germany especially, but the whole of Europe going into helping Greece. right now they are talking into private banks taking the 
Greek "loans" and extending it for 30 years. That would be a partial solution, but why on earth did they have to wait 18 months before even introducing such an idea? Then there's the whole matter of Strauss-Kahn, who was rather 'sympathetic" (for the lack of another word) of Greece and apparently the latest news (heard it today on the telly) is that the hotel cleaner (or whatever she was) was lying! YAY for more inconvinience...

The matter of fact for me is twofold: We, as Greeks, deserve to be taken by a storm .We have been acting like arses for far too long. At the same time though, there appears to be a war going on and the bets are against Greece making it. And I can hardly consider this to be Greece's fault alone! :(


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## Udo (Jun 30, 2011)

The REAL problem? 

The real problem is that, in its CURRENT incarnation, capitalism is ultimately a system of diminishing returns. 

Apart from that main issue, the extraordinary large number of very insecure (and often neurotic) people in PROMINENT positions in "the system" is a major cause of many problems. Greed is very often a symptom of that type of personality. 

This is, of course, a general comment and not specifically related to Greece.


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## nikolas (Jun 30, 2011)

Udo @ Fri Jul 01 said:


> The real problem is that, in its CURRENT incarnation, capitalism is ultimately a system of diminishing returns.
> .


I'll take it a few steps further, semi-joking (but in all honesty rather believing it).

The problem is money in its self, while there is no other way around that.

At first people would exchange stuff with real value: Meat for salt, water for tools, etc... Then at some point we decided that gold, remaining 'unchanged' chemically is ideal to portray what holds the ultimate value. So gold, useless as it is compared to water or salt is the main currency. Yet too heavy and we jumped onto money... 

Money is nice, but again can be rather taunting (especially if you deal in zillions), so we went into credit cards, Internet money (paypal) and god knows what else...

So right now we're having the whole world spinning around just because of promises made in paper or plastic. We believe in that, and the banks push us further: We get a loan, which we'll never repay and the whole system crashes. Exactly because promises are to be broken and it's dead easy to break a promise that has a currency of no physical value (how much is 1$ worth in 'absolute' value? Not in terms of gold, or what it represents, but in 'real' value).

And then here we are... 

How's that for an idea, huh?


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## snowleopard (Jun 30, 2011)

From what I can tell, it sounds like Greece needs some sort of entire overhaul of the tax system, be that some sort of flat tax, a national sales tax, or something less manipulative or corruptible. It also seems to me that there's still a very bright future for economic tourism, if the country can cater to that and live within it's means. 

I would also strongly encourage the country to not adopt a US-like tax and regulation system heavily based in supply-side economic thinking, under the presumption that you'll somehow invest the capital and grow your way out of your mess. It takes more than that to move money and get people to produce, and if your tax system is corrupt, you'll end up the plutocracy we are. 

Now, for Nick, here's a clip from Robert Reich, who I believe Nick admires. I think Reich puts the US economic pickle pretty well here. He may be a left-leaning Dem, but this little video mostly just says without a strong middle class, we're not going to grow much economically. It's pretty factual as I see it:


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## midphase (Jul 1, 2011)

I had no idea Robert Reich could draw so well!


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## PasiP (Jul 1, 2011)

Interesting article for sure:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/04/28/greece-waste-idUSLDE63R0QZ20100428 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/04/ ... QZ20100428)

Makes you think...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 1, 2011)

Thanks Snowleopard. Yeah, I saw that video a couple of weeks ago. He makes that central argument all the time, and of course he's absolutely right.

Nikolas, there's no direct line for Greece to leave the Euro, but it is a very real possibility! And the run on banks it would trigger would be turbulent to say the least.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 1, 2011)

This is a great analysis of what's going on:

http://www.creditslips.org/files/kuttne ... e-bkcy.pdf


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## chimuelo (Jul 1, 2011)

Greece is doing what they were told. The Federal Reserves' " stimulus " money was transferred to global banks, and then dispersed by those people who live in gated communities. They will succeed but only after lots of pain to the peasants foolish enough to trust the elites.

I guess once the Federal Reserve told Obama's economic team there's no more money, they went back to make believe land in some Unversity, where coinicidentally there's no accountability either.

We will see the same here as in Greece, and the peasants will be divided by class warfare and race. It's the tool of the Liberals. The Republicans tool is Christian faith and family ( along with mistresses ).
So isn't it obvious that these 2 choices are not popular with the American Middle Class.....?
I despise all elites who wish to have more control and more money and more wars.....

These 2 false parties are mere messengers for a group of global banks.
Libya is even more proof of this. We don't even know why we are there.
Oh wait, to protect the little people again..........
Yeah, yeah.

Let's pray Greece doesn't start killing too many of it's citizens.
When that happens, it will spread.
I still remember Kent State and understand how easy things can get out of control.

I am looking forward to the left/right battles here during campaign season, which has already started.
I wish I was a moderator here. I would put Fox News logos, NYTimes and MSNBC logos of different colored sheep on each post.
Government controlled media is incredibly efficient in the USA.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 1, 2011)

Again with the "it doesn't matter what side you're on" argument. Liberals and conservatives are not just opposite sides of the same coin, and Fox is not the same as NY X and MSNBC. That's like saying that record companies are all out to make money, therefore Justin Bieber is the same as Bach.

There are some things you say I agree with, but you're dead wrong that every point of view is the same.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 1, 2011)

By the way, that article I just linked really explains what's going on.

I should add that liberals are NOT on the side of the rentier class, in fact the entire battle between us and conservatives boils down exactly to that difference.


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## nikolas (Jul 1, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Jul 01 said:


> This is a great analysis of what's going on:
> 
> http://www.creditslips.org/files/kuttne ... e-bkcy.pdf


Nick, I've seen such analysis again and again and it's rather missing: There is absolutely no mention of how should growth be supported, what kind of growth we're talking about and other ideas. It's continuously silly to support the idea that "we need to grow instead of take", without having a single idea on what to grow... It's what the main opposition party of the government is doing. Support growth. And he was dumbed almost to the trash can by the rest of Europe, exactly because he doesn't really have a solid political view on how to grow and what to grow (I keep repeating that).

Of course the sane thing is to allow growth in order for the market to restart somehow, but HOW? 

Here in Greece we are being faced with a rather tricky issue:

1. There's tons of money (literally) waiting for funding new businesses. I actually got around 40,000$ to build my studio.

2. These money used to remain untouched, so much that the EU had to take them away in some cases.

3. In other cases the new businessmen are doing whatever possible to scam into more money. For example you are being asked to spend 50% yourself and they find ways to invoice themselves for more than they spent in order to save up money. Or even worst they fake their way that they own a company, without really doing it. They fake the office, they fake the invoices, they fake services. And keep the money.

4. In yet other cases once the grant is finished they just give up...

There's a very small % of people who actually keep their businesses running after the first couple of years. And it's NOT because of an economic crisis, but because of bullshit thinking.

Battle that first and then you may have a chance for realstic growth.

Now, if google can translate this for me: http://europeanbusinessreview.blogspot. ... st_09.html It's in Greek but I swear it's true and NOT the only case (that I personally know of, never mind in statistics).


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## snowleopard (Jul 1, 2011)

That was a good Reuters article. But I think Nicolas understood what I was saying about "growth". At least I think we're alluding to the same thing, that simply having low taxes and regulation is magically going to grow the economy from it's ills, without ever defining what you're growing. What exactly are you producing? 

Justin Bieber is not the same as Bach?!! Whaaa? I had no idea!
~o)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 1, 2011)

Nikolas, I read about public affairs all the time and that article stands out as a really good summation of the battle throughout history. It only touches on Greece at the end, but it explains exactly what the hated Republican party is doing in the US.

I hadn't heard about the money for starting new businesses in Greece, but corruption and theft are obviously not good things. There's plenty of money in the US too; the problem is that there are no customers, so companies aren't investing in more unused capacity and employing people.


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## George Caplan (Jul 2, 2011)

chimuelo @ Fri Jul 01 said:


> We will see the same here as in Greece, and the peasants will be divided by class warfare and race.



thats right, that will come maybe not in your lifetime but it will come if we dont act sooner rather than later.

greece? i already told you what would happen with greece months ago. now what you have is a situation that is the precursor to the next episode. namely default. so when greeks are asked what they think they say we need change but not this. thats classic denial stage.
this is not the first time greece will default on bonds. if memory serves they defaulted in the 1920 decade. 

one issue is on foreign tourists from countries that are not in and do not use the euro. for instance the usa and the uk. the uk are almost at parity on the euro/pound exchange rate. why would anyone want to go to greece on a pound/euro basis at the moment when if greece were still in the drachma the difference on the exchange to the euro/pond/dollar would be huge. in other words, on a euro exchange rate right now, greece is maybe one of the most overpriced places to go on the planet. same could said for ireland and portugal. and soon spain and italy.

should greece get thrown out of the euro this would be disastrous initially especially for certain european banks. totally disastrous for greece. imagine just for instance if greece went back to the drachma. does anyone drive a car in greece? well you could kiss that goodbye. any idea how gas and oil would suddenly cost? and food? the french and germans may mean well but their misty eyed view of a united europe has many visible cracks showing. should greece default then how many other euro nations may decide to do just the same. thats the big dilemma. should that occur imagine the effect on markets around the globe. and dont think for an instant it wont affect any of you. 

greece, for example not unlike a lot of arab states, dont really manufacture anything. this is now showing up as a problem that was bound to occur through their nonsensical public sector works and pension programs. sooner or later you have to pay for it WITH YOUR OWN MONEY. the same thing that one day will bite oil producing states in the ass when the oil dries up or is no longer needed. what are they going to do then? the trouble is, greece doesnt have any oil wells right now.


read or listen irwin stelzer's comments on economies.


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## chimuelo (Jul 2, 2011)

What shocks me is how the American middle class reacted to losing 10 years of their house payments, had their personal property taxes raised which is like kicking a man when he's down, and yet continue to go work and pay infaltionary prices on their goods and services.
The reason why is we believe in our system and know things will come around, but the glue holding these millions together is having a job.
Jobs are the answer to everything and it doesn't matter which Party is in control.

Nobody paid much attention to Texas while things were good, but their ability to grow and prosper was equated to lower health care costs, from taking the incentive to sue away by capped lawsuits, also having a right to work State is a huge benfit as it allows Union workers to continue their same Health and Welfare benefits, but a lower envelope ( paycheck ). Texas is basically a comprimise, and anyone with common sense can see that these unswayable Liberals and Conservatives fight for themselves, and nobody else.

Middle America wants jobs, not more professors and economic geniuses talking bull shit, screwing everything up with their preposturous theories, and then being rewarded again for failure.

Shovel ready worked really well. If Geitner and Obama would have spread that money around in the USA on infrastructure we wouldn't be having this discussion. They took 830 Billion dollars and gave it to the States to ease their bleeding, and then sent untold Billions to banks overseas that actually were the very same Banks that were allowed access to the Middle Class equity here in the USA in their re financing schemes.

So my opinion of the Federal Reserve board members will never change. Thier influence over our politicians must be stopped, and the next election cycle must bring down the current Senate.

In this way, we can still let Obama give his speeches and kill in the name human rights, but it will be like the CLinton era when the House and Senate were forced to balance their budgets.

I have nothing else to use as an example and wont waste time quoting more elite professors and theorists with a law degree.
I will use my memory...........

The '90's were a time of growth and prosperity. It was a time where a balanced budget was the focus.
The house was controlled by the GOP, The Senate was held by the GOP and we let Hillary give speeches, and Bill was wonderful....

I still think Hillary is like a shark circling around. Once Obama dips below 40% she will resign and go strike a deal will other members.
Bill and Hillary have their record to run on. Obama is a complete failure on foriegn and domstic policies. He has no record except failure, and all of the race baiting and begging for another trillion wont work this time around.

Hillary will also save the failed Health Care policies, as she can argue she is the one responsible for hitting a comprimise.

These are issues I would like to see, then I will start buying Premium gas and Filet Mignon again, and the professors of theory can go back to make believe land and give speeches, and teach the next group of professors how to fail without consequences...


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## JonFairhurst (Jul 2, 2011)

chimuelo,

The prosperous Texas economy? 

Baloney. 

Texas has good PR people, not a good economy.

http://www.businessinsider.com/rachel-m ... deo-2011-6


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## chimuelo (Jul 2, 2011)

Brotha' Man Jon.

That's more media talking points that have nothing to do with the reality. I cannot provide a link from a blogger sorry.
But rather 400 Union Carpenters in Austin and Grand Prarie who have transferred their books from Local 1977 here in Las Vegas.
I collect the rent for 2 of my neighbors who couldn't sell their property that just picked up and left.

I have been told that I could go there and run a mud crew while gigging on 6th street at night. My days of Boomin out are over thankfully.
That's how it is in the real world.

So for me to believe Rachel and her corporate sponsors, who BTW are owned by General Electric, that pay no taxes on 17 billion in profit, and whose CEO chairs Obamas fantastic " Jobs Council "... 
I think I'll stay with the board listings for jobs in Texas that are posted in every Labor Unions front door casing.

Your link is a perfect example of experts in disinformation cherry picking results. If you hate Obama, you watch Sean Hannity, if you love Jeffrey Immelt, watch Rachel and cheer on the hate.

I admire all American working men and women, so I choose not to be swayed by cable news and their bought and paid for ads.


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## George Caplan (Jul 2, 2011)

chimuelo @ Sat Jul 02 said:


> I still think Hillary is like a shark circling around. Once Obama dips below 40% she will resign and go strike a deal will other members.



obama and hillary are dead in the water. theyve presided over a continent that has almost become 2 seperate countries. on greece though. imagine if the uk were in the euro instead of the pound. they would would be fucked. luckily for us at this time, the usa has its own large internal market that can be self serving, especially if we decide to start a trade war.

im still trying to figure a way to make money out of this when it all starts to happen. o=?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 2, 2011)

chimuelo, your posts are 88% nuts-on wisdom and 12% total bullshit. 

Jon is absolutely right. Texas is in as much trouble as anywhere else.

(And can you believe that jackass Rick Perry?! Bill Maher nailed it: Bush is known as the smarter one.)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 2, 2011)

George, I agree with more of what you're saying than I usually do. But just to be an ass, I need to point out that every talking head in creation has been the same thing about default being inevitable all along.

And no duh being on the Euro has them in a straightjacket!


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## gsilbers (Jul 2, 2011)

George Caplan @ Sat Jul 02 said:


> chimuelo @ Fri Jul 01 said:
> 
> 
> > We will see the same here as in Greece, and the peasants will be divided by class warfare and race.
> ...



interesting...


the way it seems from a superficial point of view is that Greece pays for all these great social programs like very early retirement, cheap health care etc etc and
they do not work much , or at least they dont pay much taxes.. not in amount per person but persons not paying taxes at all.

now, i know that might be too simple of a statement but i dont know otherwise. 
so a greek point of view is also good to read. 

for me what happened in the US was kinda simple for me...

when i 1st came to the US , one of my biggest surprises was.. how the hell can all these people pay for all these awesome houses... well.. then.. it turns out many cannot.

those houses where tide to some weird financial instruments which helped bring everything down. so different things come into play, politicians wanting to give housing to everyone for political gains, folks that went over their heads with loans and wall street selling toxic assets. 
but the initial problem is very easy and simple.. people bought things (with debt) they cannot afford .

so is that the same with greece? 
greece is paying for all of these social programs they cannot afford? 

and is it the same with other EU countries? 
seems like unemployment benefits, health care, pensions, early retirement is very 
unique to EU. and from some around the world.. too good too be true.


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## snowleopard (Jul 2, 2011)

gsilbers @ Sat Jul 02 said:


> when i 1st came to the US , one of my biggest surprises was.. how the hell can all these people pay for all these awesome houses... well.. then.. it turns out many cannot...Those houses where tide to some weird financial instruments which helped bring everything down. so different things come into play, politicians wanting to give housing to everyone for political gains, folks that went over their heads with loans and wall street selling toxic assets. but the initial problem is very easy and simple.. people bought things (with debt) they cannot afford .



You are correct, but that's only half the picture. 

If you tore apart all those houses and added up the parts, plus the labor to put them together, they would more often than not amount to about 20% of what people were paying for them. People were told that houses were great investments and would never go down in value, nearly everyone, even respected money people like Art Laffer and Steve Forbes, were saying it was a great thing and the economy would continue to grow. Bankers believed it too, even hinging their margins on very risky derivative investments and such, while granting absurd loans to home buyers. Very few economists predicted the fall and raised warning flags - Krugman and Schiff come to mind, and they were mostly ignored as naysayers. Though both have since been more respected, Krugman winning a Nobel. 

There is a bigger problem than this though in that wages for the bottom 90% of the country have remained flat for 30 years. In order to keep up people often went into debt. Some out of foolishness on being told it was okay to do (buying a huge house), some out of necessity simply to get by (rising health care costs). But even though productivity in our country doubled over three decades, with earnings remained flat...you get what we have today. That's the root of many of our country's problems.

So, in theory, had wages doubled over the last 30 years like productivity did, and the housing market wasn't hyper-inflated as an investment tool backed by high-risk toxic investments, and banks demanded at least 10% down on a house that compelled buyers to save like they used to, many people in the US actually _could_ have afforded many of those large houses.


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## chimuelo (Jul 2, 2011)

Nick,

Who said anything about another politician having anything to do with Union job booms in Texas..? 
You seem to think that some politician or theory is a way to judge failure or success.
I believe it's the people and private investment that are responsible.

Vulgarites and quotes from comedians.....?
No need to resort to that level.

Most folks would want to know why Texas, that is in trouble like everyone else is creating jobs and attracting investment...
You prefer politicians creating the jobs...me too in some cases.
But after 1.4 Trillion dollars, it's obvious these fools are nothing but theories, and failed ones at that...

I realize Republicans are a source of tension and hatred for you. So I won't take it personal.
I despise the Perrys who claim Government has too much control, yet they tell women they cant make the choice of having an abortion. They want their version of control, that's the only difference.

Then wealthy Liberals want to go after the rich...?
Yet they park their yachts in States next door to avoid taxes, and even have Joe Bidens Brother in Antigua taking care of their offshore accounts....

There's you Bull S--t......

Only the wisest and stupidest of men never change. That's why these 2 " parties " continue to fail and fail and fail....


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## George Caplan (Jul 3, 2011)

look. when you think your house becomes your pension youre in really big trouble. whats any of that to do with greece? i explained all this months and months ago but obviously this forum is for members of the general hindsight brigade.

this all about debt. personal and corporate debt. but mostly personal. in greece and just about everywhere else. the reason ex eastern bloc countries want to jojn the euro is because they think everyone else will wind up paying for them.


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## chimuelo (Jul 3, 2011)

Well said Snowleopard.
That's why it's important to have Unions to level the playing field.
It's the American Middle Class that is the economic driving force, just ask the Chinese about that, they are heavily dependant on us being their customers. It's also why they buy our debt. 
The Chinese would even lend us money to fight them in defense of Taiwan. That's how joined at the hip we are.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 4, 2011)

chimuelo, we agree about most of what you're saying.



> You prefer politicians creating the jobs...me too in some cases



It's not that I prefer it, it's that the only way to get our economy moving again is with temporary government support.

Texas: the point is that they're in as much trouble as most other states despite having a conservative government - contrary to the Republican talking point. I know you didn't say anything about Rick Perry. That was something I added a propos Texas. But look at the guy. I see nothing wrong with quoting Bill Maher. What he said is funny.

Meanwhile if you're saying 1.4 trillion was the stimulus - and if not I don't understand what you're saying - then a) it was much smaller than that, and b) it didn't fail, it succeeded in proportion to its size.

Finally, it's faulty logic to say that hypocrites of any persuasion disprove their validity.

Oh, and "bullshit" is a vulgarity? Really?


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## chimuelo (Jul 4, 2011)

I like Maher too, saw him at the Orleans for 45 bucks. He was great.
I also love Dennis Miller when he comes there too.
It's a fair and balanced Casino...... :lol:
Jon Stewart is always gigging when I am but I really like him and Miller the most.
Comedians are great at showing the hypocracy we deal with.
It's a great relief of stress.

If Liberals would have Laura Sanchez or a Bernie Sanders representing them they would appear as more truthful, public servants that actually care about Americans. But having the wealthiest people getting richer and richer while trying to explain class warfare is just disgusting and vile.
GOP COnservatives at least let you know they dont care, and take corporate money without remorse.
I just dont see any choices anymore, and want a 3rd party.
We'll see the Middle Class actually come out and vote. 30% is the best we've seen in 20+ years.
65-70% would eliminate both of these false houses of cards once and for all.
Maybe then we'll see public service instead of this entitlement mentality.


I look forward to disagreeing with you in the next bashing of the elites.
As you notice I dont bash people for their choices, I bash the liars and cheats that want to rule over me, instead of serve...

Until then

Peace and Cheers... 0oD


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