# OT: Prayers to New Orleans



## Damon (Aug 28, 2005)

Good luck to any residents and folks in the area. My prayers to you all.


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## Evan Gamble (Aug 29, 2005)

yeah, im dodging this hurricane...hope everyone there does well.


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## Waywyn (Aug 29, 2005)

yeh and all people shouldn't forget to start whirling their fingers in the opposite direction, maybe that deneutralizes this mofo hurricane...

no seriously, i hope that not too much is happening and i wish good luck to the people over there.

i hope my first words were not too sarcastic but sometimes we need some humor to stand over all this catastrophy and stuff happening. there is so much going on everyday in this world we don't even know about and you could get sick by just thinking about everything.


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## Simon Ravn (Aug 29, 2005)

I'm an atheist. Which means I don't believe in prayers But let's hope it doesn't do too much harm overthere.


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## choc0thrax (Aug 29, 2005)

Awww a fellow Athiest, I didn't know we had so much in common. *Gazes longingly towards Denmark*


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## IASOS (Aug 29, 2005)

I too will pray that the Lord will have mercy upon those in New Orleans.

"Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble, and He brought them out of their distress. He stilled the storm to a whisper; the waves of the sea were hushed. They were glad when it grew calm, and He guided them to their desired haven." Psalm 107:28-30


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## Simon Ravn (Aug 29, 2005)

OMG.... :twisted:


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## IASOS (Aug 29, 2005)

Trev Parks said:


> * Most sermons sound to me like commercials - but I can't make out whether God is the Sponsor or the Product. * Mignon McLaughlin



God is both. He became fully human and died for mankind's sins, and offers salvation freely to those who want it. "Seek, and you shall find, knock, and it shall be opened to you"

Product - 

"Then Jesus declared, 'I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.'" John 6:35

"To him who is thirsty I will give to drink * without cost* from the spring of the water of life." Revelation 21:6

Sponsor - 

"For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God." 1 Peter 3:18


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## IASOS (Aug 29, 2005)

Damon said:


> Man, I didn't want to stir up any religious debate over this seriously :cry:



I didn't either. :?


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## Simon Ravn (Aug 29, 2005)

Man, I wish I was as good at quoting Carl Barks as you are at quoting the bible :lol:


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## Aaron Sapp (Aug 29, 2005)

Damon, I thought YOU were an atheist - so how are you praying for others? :twisted: 

Simon, I bet if John Williams believed in God, you'd think twice about Christianity, no? BWAHAHAHAHA! Is JW even religious? 

I've found that it's incredibly difficult to find superb musicians who are also spiritual/religious. My guess is that once they reach great success, God is nothing more than an annoyance/detriment to their life/work/success. 

Even for me, it's an unusual balancing act: On one hand, deep prayer has got me out of some incredible hardships years ago when _nothing_ else worked - and because of that (among other things), I believe there really is a God. On the other hand, the notion that God has absolute control over every aspect of my life, including my desire to compose music, makes me chafe. Everyone gets stuck and doubts their abilities as an artist, but atheists don't have to fathom the notion that their abilities are at the mercy of a greater intelligence's master plan.  

A genuine relationship with God is incredibly difficult, but, I don't think it was ever meant to be that easy anyway. I've been attending church my whole life, but I'm still not quite 'there' yet. I can't bring myself to blindly worship God, but I can't bring myself to go atheist either. 

There is so much we don't know. Heck, we know nothing outside of our tiny little planet. We are one of nine (ten now?) planets that revolves around _one_ star among _billions_ of stars in our _one_ galaxy rivaling _billions_ of galaxies potentially with planets of their own with a populace of beings that believe in their OWN greater intelligences. *inhales* With that in mind, it seems downright foolish and arrogant to believe that Jesus only visited our measly little planet while dismissing the googolplex of inhabitants outside our solar system. What if our sole purpose is to indeed become one with the terra firma, burn a gaping hole in the ozone layer, rendering our planet to nothing more than a giant ball of burning gas useful only to aliens needing an ample source of energy to power up their Playstation 51's? What then!? 

So, don't be so arrogant as to not even toy with the idea of a greater being of immeasurable intelligence influencing our existence in one way or another. 

Wow... got off on a tangent. Sorry! :D


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## José Herring (Aug 29, 2005)

Funny thing about Atheist is that Atheism is a religious belief. It's the belief that there is no higher power which then forms a belief system around that whole idea. 

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## Waywyn (Aug 30, 2005)

you know, talking about that religious thing in my opinion it is that easy.

in the first ages of mankind people didn't understand everything like the weather, thunder, storms, big waves, the whole nature with its sun and moon etc.

so if you can't explain something, ... you GUESS something, or BELIEVE and you are pretty sure that this is the only way it could be.

so after all that time people created religious groups and they are believing that there is a higher being like a god or a greater power to protect us all.

the funny thing is that all those "oh so holy people" just pray if they are in misery and pain. if it's gone they suddenly doesn't even think about and i know a lot of, especially, older people who pray and pray and pray, run to church run to church etc., but then right after they come out of the "gods temple" they start to talk bad about the neighbours cloth or what mr. or mrs. xxx did last evening etc.


i think all those religious things, if you look at them, are just completely the same. there are just little differences but all in all it is aaaaaalwaaaays the same: mostly one god to worship. names, rules and beliefs are different but all in all it is the same principle. just a higher power to believe in.

if they are called, god, mohammed, buddha or whoever, i believe they are all made up by human to grip and claw to something. it is the fear of mankind which makes them believe, that there is something like a big PAPA who watches over us.

"it can't be that we are all alone in this horrible, dark and cold world. it also can't be that the are completely alone without going somewhere. we need something to believe and it can't be we are here on earth like just a dog or a bee. WE the humans are something better and filled with the holy spirit," ... personally for me nonsense.


yes i am not an atheist but i believe in MYSELF. when i have real big problems, personal stuff and sometimes really hard or shocking things happening, it is not just done by praying, crying and keeling down in misery and beg god to come or to help.

the best you could do is, stand up and do something to get out of that situation. if there is no getting out or someone died who was very close to you, it is not done by just praying etc. ... the best thing is to get psychologically get ordered again in your head, because LIFE GOES ON ... for always. talk to people you have problems with, get mistakes right, help were you can, but don't forget yourself.

of course for the most people praying is something like hoping and getting ordered in their heads and fulfilling themselves with hope and new horizonts.

... but in the most situations people just say: "ah, god will do it" ... "god, will set it right", "god will help me one day" ...
i don't want to say that all people do this, but most of them ... and it makes me kinda angry because they just pull everything up to some "invisble made up being or power". they even don't really care if it exists, they just pull it away and get it off their shoulders. even church excuse their executions in the middle ages with "in the name of god" etc.


so to come back to topic for those people who live near those catastrophy areas it is best to just support and help your people or neighbours.

when the big tsunami hit the indian cost we couldn't do much and we were not able to travel down and help, because i also still have a life and you have to make sure you don't forget yourself, but at least we were able to spend a little bit of money to the victims. at least something little.

all in all i don't wanna say i am a better human nor i have the best solution at all, but some or most people just forgot how to think. pulling all fault and sins aside to some higher powers is just not the way to go. you have to do it on your own. you are your own god to set it right and make best out of life!


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## Simon Ravn (Aug 30, 2005)

Aaron Sapp said:


> Damon, I thought YOU were an atheist - so how are you praying for others? :twisted:
> 
> Simon, I bet if John Williams believed in God, you'd think twice about Christianity, no? BWAHAHAHAHA! Is JW even religious?



Nope, I don't care if Williams worship small rodents or whatever, it doesn't change my mind. I believe in logic and reason, the people around me, and myself.


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## Simon Ravn (Aug 30, 2005)

josejherring said:


> Funny thing about Atheist is that Atheism is a religious belief. It's the belief that there is no higher power which then forms a belief system around that whole idea.



Not for me. I don't think about "my atheism" at all. I just don't believe in anything I can't see or feel. I think religion is the root of destruction, the cause of so many bad things in the world. Blaming bad fortune (or good fortune for that matter) on some "god" is an incredibly ridiculous thought to me. And using old books, written by stoned munks ages ago as any kind of guideline to how to live your life... No thanks. Or using a religious document to justify stupid and inhumane actions. Nope. To be a little harsh, I think religion is for "weak" people who can't find guidance either in themselves or through other people as to how to live their lives, what decisions to make - and it's also very convinient to blame events on something/someone that you can't confront or have a verbal conversation with.

But ok I know this is not going anywhere. We could discuss this from now on and to the next nuclear holocaust and nobody would change their opinions This is way too big a subject - even for VI  

I don't believe in Santa Clause either btw.


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## Markleford (Aug 30, 2005)

Aaron Sapp said:


> I've found that it's incredibly difficult to find superb musicians who are also spiritual/religious. My guess is that once they reach great success, God is nothing more than an annoyance/detriment to their life/work/success.


British jazz horn/keyboard player and bandleader Django Bates once put in his album liner notes something to this effect:

"God does not read album liner notes." 

- m


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## jonathanparham (Aug 30, 2005)

Hey folks,
Thanks for the prayers, we need them. I left a couple of short posts at Northern sounds. My wife and I evacuated New Orleans on Sunday. We're in Houston and have been told not to return. I'm not quite sure what to do, but we're safe for now. I grabbed a couple of disks of sample librarys, plugins and such. I just moved my music computers to higher shelves and hit the road.
I see places I usually go in the city and they're are underwater. I have a friend that works in a hotel in downtown New Orleans and she is safe.
Prayers our helpful


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## IASOS (Aug 30, 2005)

Aaron Sapp said:


> I've found that it's incredibly difficult to find superb musicians who are also spiritual/religious. My guess is that once they reach great success, God is nothing more than an annoyance/detriment to their life/work/success.



I don't mean this to sound condescending, but have you never taken a "History of Western Music" course? The great majority of the great artists in every field of art have been deeply religious.

Music:
Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Mahler, Vaughan Williams, etc. Many more - I didn't even name the pre-baroque composers like Josquin or Dufay.

Books:
C.S. Lewis, when he was an atheist, said it annoyed him that all of the best writers were Christians. Shakespeare, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, TS Elliot, Dickens, Milton, Dante etc. were Christians. Name a random great classic book and chances are it was written by a Christian. Even some of the most popular fiction today was written by Christians: Lord of the Rings is a good example. (Tolkien was part of the Inklings).

Film:
Most critics consider Scorsese to be the greatest living director, and he's, of course, Catholic. Tarkovsky, the great Russian director, was a deeply devout Orthodox Christian. Hitchcock was Catholic. Bresson was a Christian. Even a good majority of living directors: Spielberg is Jewish, Gibson is a Catholic. Shyamalan was raised Catholic, and it's obvious from his films that he's atleast spiritual.

The "great atheist artist" is very rare. If you ask me, it's because they never use that "religious side" of their brain which is closely tied to the imagination. That's why when fairy tales went out of fashion in the 18th and 19th centuries, the Christian authors tried so hard to get them back. Kids don't need to be raised on fact books, they need to be raised on books of imagination, books that make them think there might be more to life than meets the eye.

Christians and religious people in general see the world differently than the stale atheists. Jesus told us not to put our faith in the world, said we are "not of the world", said "don't build your house upon the sand." Because the world is a charade, a nightmare masquerading itself as life, but it's going to end. The "shadowlands" will wash away, and True Life will be revealed. "Behold! I am making all things new!" The Christian mind will think of life somewhat as a dream, and will always be looking past it, toward his true home. The atheist won't. His mind is stuck here. Confucius thought that life was a dream, and only in death would we know true life. No matter how advanced science gets, it will never be able to disprove Plato's Allegory of the Cave.


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## IASOS (Aug 30, 2005)

jonathanparham said:


> Hey folks,
> Thanks for the prayers, we need them. I left a couple of short posts at Northern sounds. My wife and I evacuated New Orleans on Sunday. We're in Houston and have been told not to return. I'm not quite sure what to do, but we're safe for now. I grabbed a couple of disks of sample librarys, plugins and such. I just moved my music computers to higher shelves and hit the road.
> I see places I usually go in the city and they're are underwater. I have a friend that works in a hotel in downtown New Orleans and she is safe.
> Prayers our helpful



Sorry to hear all of this! New Orleans is in my prayers. :cry:


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## Ed (Aug 30, 2005)

IASOS said:


> The atheist won't. His mind is stuck here. Confucius thought that life was a dream, and only in death would we know true life. No matter how advanced science gets, it will never be able to disprove Plato's Allegory of the Cave.



Confucius was an atheist. But so many confuse materialism with atheism.

Ed


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## Evan Gamble (Aug 30, 2005)

everyones agnostic and everyone needs to admit it :D EVERYONE


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## Waywyn (Aug 30, 2005)

IASOS said:


> No matter how advanced science gets, it will never be able to disprove Plato's Allegory of the Cave.



no matter how far science gets it will never discover anything. it is all about believe or not. if you make yourself strong and take care about other peoples it is probably more worth than running to church and pray to higher powers we even don't know it is there.

religion in my eyes is only subtitution for something we don't understand but to have something which is there ... but the main religion messages many religious people lost during their lifetime is, what its all about. be nice, be friendly, don't lie, steal and kill. well, most people don't care about that, they go to church and only pray, that should be enough, right


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## Ed (Aug 30, 2005)

josejherring said:


> Funny thing about Atheist is that Atheism is a religious belief. It's the belief that there is no higher power which then forms a belief system around that whole idea.
> 
> One good thing about Atheism that I have found is that they generally tend to be pretty self reliant by not believing that there is anything that will "take care of them". Though the belief that there is no higher power tends to turn a lot of them pretty cynical and quite bitter.



Sorry Jose you are referring to materialism, not atheism. An atheist is simply someone who lacks belief in god or gods. Pantheist religions are almost always atheistic such as the Tao, which was Lucas' inspiration for the The Force in Star Wars. Materialists while atheists however dont believe in any higher power at all, including souls and the supernatural.

The confusion you have is common and I think comes from the fact that pantheists dont refer to themselves as atheist, even though they are. So when you meet someone who says they are atheist _usually_they are saying they are materialist.

Though neither atheism (on its own) or materialism can be considered a religion however, since they lack any of the tenants required of one.

Ed


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## Aaron Sapp (Aug 30, 2005)

IASOS said:


> Aaron Sapp said:
> 
> 
> > I've found that it's incredibly difficult to find superb musicians who are also spiritual/religious. My guess is that once they reach great success, God is nothing more than an annoyance/detriment to their life/work/success.
> ...


Nope. 



> Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Mahler, Vaughan Williams, etc. Many more - I didn't even name the pre-baroque composers like Josquin or Dufay.



Sorry, forgot to clarify: _Living_ musicians.


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## IASOS (Aug 30, 2005)

Aaron Sapp said:


> Sorry, forgot to clarify: _Living_ musicians.



Yes, you are right that there has been a swing in the 20th century toward most artists not being religious, atleast in music. Some of the directors I named are still alive. A lot of great Christian authors lived this century (Flannery O'Connor, Tolkien, Lewis, etc.), though. The blacks have always been particularly religious, so I would assume most of the great jazzers were Christian, but I don't know. (Was that racist?! :wink: ). I don't keep up with contemporary music, and I have no idea wether most film composers are religious. I read an interview with John Williams where he came across as * very * "spiritual but not religious".

I didn't even mention philosophy. For every Marx, we have two Descartes.

I have really got to stop posting and then editing. I have to add that I probably shouldn't say "most artists" nowadays aren't religious, as we really don't know.


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## IASOS (Aug 30, 2005)

I just remembered that Britney Spears is a Christian! BAM! :D


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## Ed (Aug 30, 2005)

IASOS said:


> I just remembered that Britney Spears is a Christian! BAM! :D



Yea but she also claimed she was an innocent virgin.

Ed


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## Waywyn (Aug 30, 2005)

Ed said:


> IASOS said:
> 
> 
> > I just remembered that Britney Spears is a Christian! BAM! :D
> ...



all about IMAGE


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## Markleford (Aug 30, 2005)

IASOS said:


> Yes, you are right that there has been a swing in the 20th century toward most artists not being religious, atleast in music.


1) The entire world is not Christian. Nor are all relevant artists in America (or Europe). So many musicians and composers are religious, but apparently "don't count" to Christians.

2) Many people are religious (or spiritual, as you concede), but not particularly evangelical. A personal relationship with one's deity does not require calling attention to themselves (e.g quoting scripture) in order to "score points".

3) Proposing that "blacks have always been particularly religious, so I would assume most of the great jazzers were Christian" is both racist *and* centrist. There have always been great Jewish players. There was a move towards Islam for quite a while. There are still Buddhists in the scene.

If you mean "Christian", then *say* "Christian". "Religious" means something far broader and meaningful: the terms are not interchangable.

- m


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## Ed (Aug 30, 2005)

Markleford said:


> If you mean "Christian", then *say* "Christian". "Religious" means something far broader and meaningful: the terms are not interchangable.



True. As is "atheist" and "materialist".

Ed


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 30, 2005)

This Topic has been moved to Off Topics, as it had nothing whatsoever to do with Sample Talk!

Now everybody play nice. We all know that religion is a very *hot* topic. This place is cool because we _generally_ respect each other. If this thread becomes too volatile, I'll have to bring down the hammer. :twisted:


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## IASOS (Aug 30, 2005)

* 1) The entire world is not Christian. Nor are all relevant artists in America (or Europe). So many musicians and composers are religious, but apparently "don't count" to Christians.*

Most of the world (32%) is Christian. Add 19.9% of the muslim world who worships the God of Abraham (as Christians do) and you have over half of the world. What does this have to do with anything? I don't know.

I never said all relevant artists in America were Christian (certainly not).

I assure you the only reason I haven't brought up Hindi or Muslim musicians is that I simply don't know of any. I ask that you forgive my ignorance. Where you are quoting "don't count" from, I don't know.

*
2) Many people are religious (or spiritual, as you concede), but not particularly evangelical. A personal relationship with one's deity does not require calling attention to themselves (e.g quoting scripture) in order to "score points".*

I never said most people were spiritual, or if I did I don't remember. Maybe you could quote it for me.

I never said having a "personal relationship with one's deity" required one to call attention to themselves. The Bible says just the opposite - pray in your closet with the door closed. But it does say that we should not be ashamed of our faith. Where you are quoting "score points" from, I don't know. If you think that's why I quote scripture, I'm afraid you are mistaken. Who am I scoring points for? My made up screen name on a forum I mostly lurk on?

*
3) Proposing that "blacks have always been particularly religious, so I would assume most of the great jazzers were Christian" is both racist *and* centrist. There have always been great Jewish players. There was a move towards Islam for quite a while. There are still Buddhists in the scene.*

So then you agree that most jazzers are religious or atleast spiritual?

*

If you mean "Christian", then *say* "Christian". "Religious" means something far broader and meaningful: the terms are not interchangable. *

Agreed. I will be more careful in the future.


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## Evan Gamble (Aug 30, 2005)

IASOS said:


> I just remembered that Britney Spears is a Christian! BAM! :D



haha..that gave me a good laugh :lol:


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## Frederick Russ (Aug 30, 2005)

Nick Batzdorf - this is your favorite subject and you're missing it!

At least Atheism believes in something. I think when it gets weird is when people believe in nothing, including themselves. What I believe is my business, what you believe is yours. Personally I think the Golden Rule can go beyond Christianity into all aspects of life (including Atheism) since its easy to know how we ourselves would like to be treated. Who knows? If more people subscribed to that one notion we might start seeing some real strides towards true peace on earth, and genuine goodwill to all.


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## Ed (Aug 30, 2005)

Frederick Russ said:


> At least Atheism believes in something.


btw its a little "a".



> I think when it gets weird is when people believe in nothing, including themselves.


I think you are describing Nihlism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihlism

Ed


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## Markleford (Aug 30, 2005)

IASOS said:


> So then you agree that most jazzers are religious or atleast spiritual?


Honestly? Don't know. Don't care!  Offhand, I'd say that there's an equal proportion as any walk of life. Should there be any more or less?

But it really doesn't matter. Or it *shouldn't* matter. But many people are into tallying who is "one of us" and who are not, as if enumerating their ranks gives some sort of validation to their belief system.

Sure, I can understand that sometimes it's interesting to try to track sociological trends and their intersection with music, but it's easy to read too much into it without perspective, and sometimes even cheapens it.

- m


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## Evan Gamble (Aug 30, 2005)

Ed said:


> Frederick Russ said:
> 
> 
> > At least Atheism believes in something.
> ...



Whenever i hear about nihilism i think of the big lebowski...

"oh dont worry donny there nihilists...nothing to worry about" :lol:


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## Ed (Aug 30, 2005)

Evan Gamble said:


> Whenever i hear about nihilism i think of the big lebowski...
> 
> "oh dont worry donny there nihilists...nothing to worry about" :lol:



I love that film :D


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## IASOS (Aug 30, 2005)

Markleford said:


> Sure, I can understand that sometimes it's interesting to try to track sociological trends and their intersection with music, but it's easy to read too much into it without perspective, and sometimes even cheapens it.



Don't forget, I was originally responding to Aaron's comment: "I've found that it's incredibly difficult to find superb musicians who are also spiritual/religious"

To which I responded that the majority of "great artists" representing every form of art were religious/spiritual and most of them Christian. That's my point. Say, "interesting..." or say, "eh? who cares?" and take it for what you think it's worth.

To be honest, I think we've all kind of made asses out of ourselves here by turning this thread into a religious debate, when it should have been a thread of replies consiting of nothing more than, "we're praying for you, New Orleans," or "wishing you luck," or "hoping for the best".


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## José Herring (Aug 30, 2005)

Simon Ravn said:


> I don't believe in Santa Clause either btw.



Now you've gone too far!

Jose


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## Markleford (Aug 30, 2005)

IASOS said:


> To be honest, I think we've all kind of made asses out of ourselves here by turning this thread into a religious debate, when it should have been a thread of replies consiting of nothing more than, "we're praying for you, New Orleans," or "wishing you luck," or "hoping for the best".


So true! I will admit to that. Ned's right: hot topic, and quite _off_ topic... 

But I suppose the original objection was just that "praying" (wishing luck, etc) in itself won't do people much good. If prayers actually worked like that, well, then I guess we could have prayed the hurricane away in the first place!

Whether they believe that or not, people should recognize that tossing about prayers in such a forum isn't universally appreciated. What ensues is typically a battle of either side thinking they're more enlightened than the other. Which is pointless, because it changes nobody's mind in the end, and only serves to create long-term bitterness between combatants.

Either way, there are more productive things that can be done...

Well-wishing is fine: donating to a relief effort would be better. And telling people you care is also swell, but we should really do it more often, regularly, instead of only when a crisis like this strikes!

- m


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## choc0thrax (Aug 30, 2005)

Damn it really sucks being a stale Athiest.  I'd rather believe in myself than a non-existant god. Too often I realize many of the worst people around are totally nuts and use religious beliefs to justify crimes. To me a lot of Christians are religious when it's convenient. Many too lazy for the chore of going to church but they are quick to ask god for help when they are in trouble.  Then theres all that converting to some fad religion like whatever that kabababaabalah is just to be cool.  In the end I think many religions state if you don't believe in them you're going to hell so it doesn't matter what you believe you're going to hell anyways. I always thought it was funny that you can kill and rape 50 children or something and god would forgive you but let's say youre some Athiest helping the poor and live a good life you get thrown into hell for all eternity as a thank you.


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## choc0thrax (Aug 30, 2005)

Well you see the thing is there probably wasn't enough prayers to destroy the hurricane altogether. I think what was it like 350 million prayers to destroy a category 5 storm?


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## Ed (Aug 30, 2005)

IASOS said:


> No matter how advanced science gets, it will never be able to disprove Plato's Allegory of the Cave.



How did I miss this? I would like you to explain exactly why you think that, because chances are it will show a misunderstanding of science.

I suggest you start a new thread though.

Ed


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## Evan Gamble (Aug 30, 2005)

IASOS said:


> What the...? Sarcastic atheists? Never in all my years I have met one of those.
> 
> Chocothrax,
> 
> ...



you can interpret the bible to justify having sex with your sister too :D


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## IASOS (Aug 30, 2005)

And with Ed's post I will take my leave from this thread. I can see that some of you are too immature and arrogant to even bother having a conversation with. All you're going to do is mock and jeer. The one's that have to resort to this are probably feeling ignorant of the subject, and are stooping to immaturity out of necessity.

Sapp, jose, waywyn, markleford, frederick, thank you for being mature and insightful. Again I will say that if anyone reads this thread over, they'll see which "side" started this nonsense, and which side comes across as hostile, rude and immature. If I were an atheist, I would be ashamed at how certain people are representing my beliefs.

Evan, read Leviticus.

Good bye and good wishes to all.

*"The arrogant mock me without restraint, but I do not turn from your law." Psalm 119:51*


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## Ed (Aug 30, 2005)

Evan Gamble said:


> you can interpret the bible to justify having sex with your sister too :D



You see the reason is because it was written by many people over a long period all with differing opinions and beliefs. So you cannot try and read the whole thing as a cohesive whole trying to make it fit together 100% correctly. Thats also why you cant collect everyones comments in, say, the US's Republican party, and then try and fit it together like a jigsaw and make it make fit 100%.

Ed


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## Ed (Aug 30, 2005)

IASOS said:


> And with Ed's post I will take my leave from this thread. I can see that some of you are too immature and arrogant to even bother having a conversation with. All you're going to do is mock and jeer. The one's that have to resort to this are probably feeling ignorant of the subject, and are stooping to immaturity out of necessity.



Sorry, I wasnt mocking to you was I? I think you are reading way too much into what i said if you think that. And chocos mission is to derail threads and be sarcastic, check out his sig. He is famous in these parts, didnt you say you were a lurker? 




> Evan, read Leviticus



I think so too. Thats one of the reasons why I dont believe anymore. Such a book could never have been about the true creator of the entire universe.

Ed


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## choc0thrax (Aug 30, 2005)

It wasn't my mission to derail this thread. I just hope I don't see the great Pat Robertson praying for my assasination on t.v. 8)


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## José Herring (Aug 30, 2005)

Ed said:


> Sorry Jose you are referring to materialism, not atheism. An atheist is simply someone who lacks belief in god or gods. Pantheist religions are almost always atheistic such as the Tao, which was Lucas' inspiration for the The Force in Star Wars. Materialists while atheists however dont believe in any higher power at all, including souls and the supernatural.
> 
> The confusion you have is common and I think comes from the fact that pantheists dont refer to themselves as atheist, even though they are. So when you meet someone who says they are atheist _usually_they are saying they are materialist.
> 
> ...



Atheisim, pantheisism, materialism I'll need to look those up. :? 

I'm mostely into reasonism, certainism and knowledgism. You could no more prove there is a God than prove there isn't one so I've long given up the search for the God.

I did read Pope John Paul's book though about the subject. He had a really good definition of God. God stands for love, light, wisdom and the power of these things. I paraphrase of course. It works for me. Just hate it when people get on their pulpit and preach damnation for all. That's not God. That's just hate. And, the idea that we're all going to hell if this or that. Look around people! There's eternal suffering going on all around here. Hell is what you make.

I just don't like all the mysticism of it all anymore. It's annoying.

Jonathan, I do wish you well. And I hope you can get back home soon. And if you need help rebuilding any of your studio let me know and don't forget that you have a community here too.

Cheers,

Jose


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## PaulR (Aug 30, 2005)

jonathanparham said:


> Hey folks,
> My wife and I evacuated New Orleans on Sunday. We're in Houston and have been told not to return. I'm not quite sure what to do, but we're safe for now. I grabbed a couple of disks of sample librarys, plugins and such. I just moved my music computers to higher shelves and hit the road.
> I see places I usually go in the city and they're are underwater. I have a friend that works in a hotel in downtown New Orleans and she is safe.
> Prayers our helpful




Very good luck to you. I'm sure it will all work out in the end. What a dreadful business and our best wishes to you and everyone else.


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## Evan Gamble (Aug 30, 2005)

IASOS said:


> Evan, read Leviticus.



ive read the bible :wink: 

sorry if you got insulted by my mocking, but its important to keep humor going whenever you are having a serious, and potentially angry subject.


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## Ed (Aug 30, 2005)

josejherring said:


> I'm mostely into reasonism, certainism and knowledgism. You could no more prove there is a God than prove there isn't one so I've long given up the search for the God.



I dont see why you have to call them "isms". But thats true you cant prove there isnt a god, or that there is one. Proof is word of absolutes anyway, and absolutes arent valid in science so I dont really like the word. When scientists refer to "proof" they mean the evidence is showing "beyond reasonable doubt". Nothing is really absolute not even our own existence.



> I did read Pope John Paul's book though about the subject. He had a really good definition of God. God stands for love, light, wisdom and the power of these things. I paraphrase of course. It works for me. Just hate it when people get on their pulpit and preach damnation for all. That's not God. That's just hate.



I agree. Though having read the Bible I dont think those characteristics describe it at all, well, one part of its personality maybe; "Jesus". If there is a god, I doubt anyone is right. As I see it everyone is in the dark, but some people claim to know things for no other reason.

Ed


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## choc0thrax (Aug 30, 2005)

I just noticed that this thread had 666 views! AHHHHHHHHHHH :twisted:


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## Scott Cairns (Aug 30, 2005)

I think a lot of people are religious and dont realise it. Not in the sense of "confessing sins" or whatever, more on how you live your life and value the lives of others.

Its funny, cause i think being creative is very spiritual, Im reading a great book on it now. You plug into a "creative force" or higher self" or "god" - if you feel comfortable with that term.

My mission in life is to be as good a composer as I can, meet lots of great people along the way, and always treat them with respect and kindness.

Am I religious?


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## Trev Parks (Aug 30, 2005)

IASOS said:


> *"The arrogant mock me without restraint, but I do not turn from your law." Psalm 119:51*



The easiest way to stay awake during a sermon is to deliver it. 

I seriously dislike it when people try and preach down to or belittle others by quoting from the bible. Why not use your own words to articulate your thoughts?. That would surely be more imaginative.

I believe very much in God but I can never bring myself to subscribe to a man-made set of imposed laws that, by their very nature, exclude others who don't follow the same belief. Religion, as someone else said, is around about the number one cause of the misery and suffering of much of humankind for as long as we can track civilisation. Natural disasters follow second - I hear the death toll is in triple figures. Really sad news.


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## Chrislight (Aug 30, 2005)

Scott Cairns said:


> Am I religious?


Like many people, I consider myself to be a spiritual, but not a religious person. To me, being "religious" equates more with being a member of a certain religion, whereas spirituality tends to be more encompassing of different belief systems, more personal, more open to different ideas and influences. Of course, spirituality means different things to different people. Being spiritual to some means to act in ways that promote a greater connection to a higher source of power, which they may or may not consider to be "God". Many consider their spirituality to be a way of living and connecting with "spirit" found within and in all forms of life and things, including music. There are many adherents to an orthodox religion who consider spirituality to be a part of their religious experience. From what I've seen for the most part, those who consider themselves to be spiritual but not necessarily religious tend to be less dogmatic in their beliefs than those who subscribe to a particular religion.

I also add my prayers for those who have been affected by this terrible disaster.


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## Kevin Fortin (Aug 30, 2005)

"Love's in need of love today" Stevie Wonder

God help us all to help us all


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## José Herring (Aug 30, 2005)

Ed said:


> josejherring said:
> 
> 
> > I'm mostely into reasonism, certainism and knowledgism. You could no more prove there is a God than prove there isn't one so I've long given up the search for the God.
> ...



I was trying to make a personal joke. I once ran into a guy that was part of a somewhat secret societ trying to save the world. This societ was called "Reason". He got insulted when I asked him if he knew what "reason" meant. I thought it was very funny that he looked in the dictionary and gave me the dictionary definition which goes something like this: "The process of using reason and the products of thinking" or some such thing. and then, "of or pertaining to logic and it's processes". Well, I didn't have the heart to ask him if he know what "logic" was. So from that I came to the conclusion that people that claim to use "reason" though trying are really just going on blind faith.

The kicker about this guy is that his whole organization was going around studying old social programs, trying to figure out which ones worked, then lobbying politicians and congresses to get these programs re-implemented. I'm thinking if they worked so well then why oh why is man and his societies still so [email protected]#K up! Where's the reason in that one!

Then when I tried to give him a real workable definition of "reason" and "logic" there was dead silence. Like he never considered that those things had anything to do with real modern day living.

J


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## jonathanparham (Aug 31, 2005)

*OT Thanks?*

well it seems this thread has turned into a debate. I just wanted to respond to PaulR and IOSAS(?) and say thanks.

My wife, cat, and I are headed to OHio (family), NY (possible gigs).

I still haven't seen anything in my neighborhood yet and the flooding is disconerting. So far all the reporting is no where near my house (and music computers). So hopefully no news is good nes.


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## Ed (Aug 31, 2005)

josejherring said:


> So from that I came to the conclusion that people that claim to use "reason" though trying are really just going on blind faith.
> 
> The kicker about this guy is that his whole organization was going around studying old social programs, trying to figure out which ones worked, then lobbying politicians and congresses to get these programs re-implemented. I'm thinking if they worked so well then why oh why is man and his societies still so [email protected]#K up! Where's the reason in that one!
> 
> Then when I tried to give him a real workable definition of "reason" and "logic" there was dead silence. Like he never considered that those things had anything to do with real modern day living.



Jose, Im not familar with the person or group you speak of but I am interested on your idea that using reason a logic is the same as blind faith? Is that what you meant? I havent heard that before, you see.

Ed


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## Journeyman (Aug 31, 2005)

> I am interested on your idea that using reason and logic is the same as blind faith?


To use Reason with Logic you need Rewire. :wink:


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## Ed (Aug 31, 2005)

Journeyman said:


> To use Reason with Logic you need Rewire. :wink:


Nah, you just need to reprogram Logic,

Ed


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## José Herring (Aug 31, 2005)

Ed said:


> Jose, Im not familar with the person or group you speak of but I am interested on your idea that using reason a logic is the same as blind faith? Is that what you meant? I havent heard that before, you see.
> 
> Ed



Firstly, I really want to get across to Johnathan that if he needs any help in rebuilding his studio once he finally gets the chance to go home to please let me know. You have support with us here.

@Ed,

In this case the guy had no real idea what "reason" or "logic" were so he was going on blind faith which I define as hoping something will work even though you're not quite sure what it is.

If you're not sure of how to reason or how to use logic then yes you're proceeding on blind faith in these things. Both reasoning and logic are tools that have to be learned. Nobody is born with these things inherently and nobody who hasn't studied at least some form of logic no matter how flawed that study may be can ever lay claim to being reasonable or logical. And, I usually find that people that claim to be reasonable or logical usually don't have a clue and just think it's the same as voicing thoughts out in there head. Or worst yet, think that they have some in born talent to these things that seperates them and makes them better than other people. It's the last one that's infuriating. I haven't met anybody yet that was totally logical in their thinking. Most people feel their way through life which is really fine. It's a better way of "thinking" about things than most logical systems including Aristotle's syllogism.


Jose


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## Damon (Aug 31, 2005)

I was home late Sunday night and was watching the projectile path of the hurricane and it dawned on me that maybe some of my fellow composers on this forum might be in the Louisiana area. I knew the hurricane was going to cause massive destruction as we now have all seen and just felt the need to express how sorry I was because I was here when Hurricane Hugo hit our area and remember how terrible it was and it's not even comparible to the destruction Katrina has caused.
I am definitely not an atheist, but I don't believe in any 1 religion either. Compassion, love, and peace are the main things I try and live by and continue to learn. My apologies for offending anyone by saying the word 'prayer'. I know 1 prayer can't stop a hurricane, but I was just expressing how I felt.


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## Evan Gamble (Aug 31, 2005)

Damon said:


> Ned Bouhalassa said:
> 
> 
> > This Topic has been moved to Off Topics, as it had nothing whatsoever to do with Sample Talk!
> ...



i dont think anyone took offence..people just wanted to state their beliefs. 
your cool damon 8)


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## fictionmusic (Aug 31, 2005)

Damon said:


> felt the need to express how sorry I was because I was here when Hurricane Hugo hit our area and remember how terrible it was and it's not even comparible to the destruction Katrina has caused.
> 
> I am definitely not an atheist, but I don't believe in any 1 religion either. Compassion, love, and peace are the main things I try and live by and continue to learn. My apologies for offending anyone by saying the word 'prayer'. I know 1 prayer can't stop a hurricane, but I was just expressing how I felt.




Good on you Damon. I'm not sure what the math is on prayers and hurricanes, but in my books, good will is certainly welcomed.


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## choc0thrax (Aug 31, 2005)

Yeah tons of looting. Even saw video of a police officer with a shopping cart at walmart doing some looting themself. :shock:


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## PaulR (Sep 1, 2005)

Frederick Russ said:


> Last reports from that area is that its turning into a bit of anarchy now. Multiple shootings, mass looting not only for essentials but also luxury goods.



Yes - and that just after what? 2 days? That's worrying really.


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## Markleford (Sep 1, 2005)

PaulR said:


> Yes - and that just after what? 2 days? That's worrying really.


Yet somehow hardly surprising.

- m


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## PaulR (Sep 1, 2005)

Markleford said:


> PaulR said:
> 
> 
> > Yes - and that just after what? 2 days? That's worrying really.
> ...



On the contrary, I find that very surprising in the context of America as a whole. Call me naive if you wish, but I would hope in this country at least that would not happen, should such a large scale disaster occur.


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## José Herring (Sep 1, 2005)

I suspect a lot of it is the media trying to make a bad story worse so that they have something to do. If you have a city of a million people you have to expect that a few 100 may do some looting. But, I seriously doubt it's as bad as what they're portraying it to be. I'm sure most people are trying to dig themselves out and are caring for thier family and friends. But, that's not going to get much mention becuase it's not scandalous.

Jose


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## choc0thrax (Sep 1, 2005)

It's got to be hard to resist the urge of looting. If I was there in that somewhat deserted place with free merchandise floating around I wouldn't just stand there twiddling my thumbs. I'd be paddling around in a boat full of plasma t.v.'s and store window female mannequins.


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## Ed (Sep 1, 2005)

choc0thrax said:


> I'd be paddling around in a boat full of plasma t.v.'s and store window female mannequins.



HAHAHAHA

Ed


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## Herman Witkam (Sep 1, 2005)

And to think that G.W. Bush was warned of flood risks when becoming president. He did the opposite of what a rational man would do, he cut down on the funding of building/strengthening the dikes.


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## choc0thrax (Sep 1, 2005)

Well I doubt Bush likes dykes very much.


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## Herman Witkam (Sep 1, 2005)

choc0thrax said:


> Well I doubt Bush likes dykes very much.



I just knew Choco you would would use it as a synonym. Trust me, I used my electronic English dictionairy but couldn't find another word :evil:


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## Hardy Heern (Sep 2, 2005)

Simon Ravn said:


> josejherring said:
> 
> 
> > Funny thing about Atheist is that Atheism is a religious belief. It's the belief that there is no higher power which then forms a belief system around that whole idea.
> ...



Everything posted by Simon on this thread could have been posted by me.....well on this subject anyway!  

Religion has been at the root of many, many troubles...... ever since man invented it.

Devout religious people never question anything. They're *totally *brainwashed from a young age and enjoy the comfortable cocoon of their blind, unquestioning faith thereafter. 

Almost without exception they have the same religion as their parents....now there's a coincidence! This says a lot to me about the whole religion thing.

Devout religious people are always going on about prayers even though they CLEARLY don't work .....otherwise the world wouldn't be in such a bloody mess with such abounding misery. Hang on a minute, weren't people praying *after *they were warned of the risk of Katrina but *before *it occurred? Of course they were!! and yet the obvious lack of success of prayers then are *totally *ignored now. No, now people say thank the Lord for sparing them......Hmmmmm......something doesn?t add up! To be even handed they should blame their Lords for getting them into this in the first place.

As above, religious people are * extremely * selective and have the power to ignore all distastful and opposing views: take, even, the popular English language hymn. 'All things bright and beautiful all creatures great and small......the Lord God made them all. This concentrates on the pretty and fluffy things and ignores the unpleasant side of nature like viruses, some face eating bacteria, parasites that are laid inside living creatures and eat them from the inside before bursting forth. Presumably the Gods had nothing to do with this?

In wars, the opposing sides are each praying to their own Gods for their own side to win?.think about it.

I could go on and on with the conclusions I have arrived at over my 60yr old life but as Simon, rightly, says it is totally futile. These are my *own * thoughts....things I've worked out *for myself*......I'm not sinking to quoting chapter and verse from a man created book.....it disappoints me greatly that intelligent people should do this.

Strangely enough I have recently started to believe that the world might actually be a happier place if one religion could overwhelm the others. If anything this may well be Islaam. That might provide some hope for peace. You and I know, though, that after some period someone would be dreaming up a variation on the religion theme and getting some followers......easiest thing in the world to do because there are so many weak, unhappy people who need the support. Then they would be at each other?s throats and the whole thing would be away again. I despair!

It's not always easy living without a religion but I feel very proud of having got through most of my life without it. The truth is that many folk are not able to live decent lives without a religion. They seem to need the support of other believers?..they need to be in a club. Why can?t these people live good lives and treat others with decency and respect of their own volition? Why must they belong to one of the many ?God? supporters clubs in order to be able to live reasonably with their fellow man?

I believe in the Ten Commandments as a reasonable set of rules to live by.

The church says.....give me a child until the age of seven and he's mine for life.

My Grandfather was a blacksmith and he said to the local minister that the internal combustion engine would finish my grandfather?s business and that education would finish the minister?s business. I have to say it?s happening but at a tremendously slow pace. The problem is that children are indoctrinated before they are able to think for themselves. Our culture doesn?t allow the cycle to be broken. It takes parents to think for themselves and to give their children the opportunity of independent thought. 

I would ban religious schools (one huge mistake Tony Blair has made is to support them?.probably for financial reasons and the fact that his wife and him are Catholics). These religious schools are sooooo divisive?.I just can?t believe he did this as I admire him in other ways.

I would teach all religions and non-religions equally until the children are at an age where they can think for themselves. Remember, you have to doubt the independence of thought of anyone who has their parent?s politics and religion??it says to me that this person probably hasn?t thought it out for himself. The teachings are so ingrained, though, that these people have little chance of escaping from their prison of religious teaching because of the extreme guilt they would experience if they tried to do so. They're trapped.

On one of the forums I frequent there are some posters who find it nearly impossible to make a post without the words, ?bless?, ?prayer? or ?God???that?s how ingrained it is. Yes, and it?s only a music forum too!!!!

Back to New Orleans??let's forget the praying and concentrate on physical and financial action.

I wish them the very best of luck in the difficult times ahead.

Frank

PS I swore I wouldn?t get sucked in??dammit?..?.Oh by the way the nearest label that you could hang on me is ?*humanist?*. I don?t think that ist/ism has been mentioned.


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## José Herring (Sep 2, 2005)

What a long post Hardy. I can tell you feel strongly about it.

I'm not particularly religious in the traditional sense of the word but what's missing in your post is the fact that religion has been the only civilizing influence in this world. :o Believe it or not it's true.

Let me explain. Asia was a barbaric mess until Buddha came around with his message of education, enlightment and the hope of reaching a higher spiritual realm through these things.

The Roman empire was a crushing brutal force in the world enslaving 3/4 of the known world under a brutal and crazy empire until the christian came about and with it's message of life after death, love and tolerance crushing the Roman empire into the dust in less that a century. Think about it. 2000 years of Romanism crushed in less than a century by a religion.

Martin Luther King brought a lot of reform to blacks in the south who couldn't who by law where restricted from taking part in most of that society. Back then it wasn't even that illegal to kill a black person. Martin Luther King used religion and religious teachings.

Of the wars that have happened in the past and in the present they're not wars of religion but wars of barbaric racism and greed. Actually pretty non religious in nature. So I don't get exactly where you're coming from.

Jose


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## choc0thrax (Sep 2, 2005)

I went to church from a young age and was easily able to break out of the cycle. Most likely due to the itchy church pants I always had to wear, I was eager to see those go.


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## Ed (Sep 2, 2005)

I was going to stop posting in this thread about this topic, but as everyone else is ...



fictionmusic said:


> All of mankind has faith in something. Either its "God" or science, or education, or music, or in Simon's case, himself. Whether that faith is misplaced or not is anyones guess, but I think it is naive is to assume that religion is the cause of the world's suffering.


You are using the word faith to mean, what? If you have faith in science for example you are doing yourself a diservice. Faith is the antithesis of science. I see no use in not questioning your beliefs, because they are usually wrong in some way. 



> Hitler and Stalin's doctrines both embraced atheism, and they have inspired just as much killing as any church. It isn't religion or organizations that are the problem, it is mankind's greed, intolerance, ignorance, hate and love of violence.



That is true. Though Hitler certianly did *not *"embrace athesim". I would love to know where you got that idea from. 

_"I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work."_ -_ Mein Kampf_

And also Stalin didnt kill people in the name of atheism, that is ridiculous. You dont kill people in the name of theism, nor do you kill people in the name of deism either.He killed people in the name of whatever his ideology was which just happened to include atheism.



> Sending prayers to someone else is a sign of goodwill, and no-one should be made to think that by doing it, they are being naive, or sheepish or unrealistic or silently endorsing all the evil that can be laid at religion's feet.



While I feel prayer is useless unless you actually have faith its going to work, I would say "sending prayers" just means sending goodwill. Personally I never had a problem with that.

Ed


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## Hardy Heern (Sep 2, 2005)

fictionmusic said:


> All of mankind has faith in something. Either its "God" or science, or education, or music, or in Simon's case, himself. Whether that faith is misplaced or not is anyones guess, but I think it is naive is to assume that religion is the cause of the world's suffering.
> 
> *It is the cause of a lot of the worlds suffering.....not all. It's extremely easy to see why. Try discussing or debating religion with a staunch Catholic (I'm married to one who has devout parents!), Christian fundamentalist, Islaamist or any other and they will spring to their 'clubs' defence in a very very strong manner. They are prepared, literallly, to die for it. Don't they realise that if they'd been brought up in another age or in another country they would be defending the other religion??.....it just doesn't make any sense to me. I believe that the flock who support their various religions contain mostly decent and good citizens but I believe that the leaders of all religions are corrupt and know exactly what the truth is. I 've heard bishops being interviewed on the radio who sound exactly like politicians....lying blatantly, twisting and avoiding answers...ie doing all the things that the 'front men' in business and politics do. I was very disappointed once I noticed that.*
> 
> ...


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## Hardy Heern (Sep 2, 2005)

choc0thrax said:


> I went to church from a young age and was easily able to break out of the cycle. Most likely due to the itchy church pants I always had to wear, I was eager to see those go.



That's good to hear....thatyou've escaped. I'm fairly certain that ones faith, or lack of it, is due in some part to the way your brain is wired up, your genetics and your upbringing. My mother used to drag us to the nearest Presbyterian church when we were young.....all to no a67cd 4http://users.pandora.be/re-peat/Mingus_Paris1964.jpg ;@öúÁ96 A G °íÎJ3e4412ae 71077563446dc467091a9.jpg  ;@öúÁ:6    .


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## Hardy Heern (Sep 2, 2005)

fictionmusic said:


> Ed said:
> 
> 
> > Hardy said *
> ...



You're talking about 'faith' as if its a good human quality. I think that 'faith' is, potentially, a human failing......'blind faith' 'Loyalty' is also a similarly abused and misused human characteristic......frequently not an admirable trait.  as in 'a loyal servant'.......an idiot, possibly?

Frank


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## José Herring (Sep 2, 2005)

Well there's different kinds of faith people. 

Faith all by it's self just means the belief in something in spite of any real evidence of it. 

Faith if done right is a good thing. How many times have I heard that music is a tough field and that I'll never make any money and blablabla. I went on faith that I could make it and that I could earn a living. I didn't have any real proof of it. And, I've spent many years hurting. And, I'm still not out of it, but if I didn't have "faith" I'd never have done anything.

People without faith are dead already. Usually too dead to even dream of a better future.

I love science. I've been a scientist for most of my life. But, Science isn't the end all to be all. It has very sharp defining lines. It only deals with the physical universe and doesn't even begin to explain things like creativity, source of life, thought, emotion, or even life itself. It does very well at predicting and controlling the physical universe and does very poorly and only leaves to speculation and theories(most of which are proven wrong daily) things like explanations of the soul, consciousness, emotion.

So if you extend beyond matter energy space and time and into the realm of love, thought, originality, personality, kindness, manners, will power. You've left the field of "hard" science and entered the field of religion which has a lot more workable answers to life than science does.

To pit Science against religion is just foolish. They're two separate things for mankind.

I also find it funny that people blame religion for wars and evils and yet hold science up as this beacon of understanding and light. Look people, a man of God didn't invent the atom bomb. It was a crack pot scientist working with crack pot engineers subverted by a crack pot militaristic government.

Scientist and doctors in the hands of goverments have created some of the most evil things in society. Here's a short list: atom bomb, LSD, PCP, extacy(sp), biological warfare, chemical warfare, electric shock, prefrontal lebodomy, transorbital luekotomy, pain drug hypnosis.

These things where not invented by God fearing men.

If you want to know my honest feeling about everything. I'm not Christian. But I hold very much in disdain people that think it's uncool, or foolish, or stupid to believe in God or to worship or go to church. Then I hold further in disdain people that look for love in a test tube of amniotic fluids or that test rights to try and devine the laws governing human behavior.

Religion has it's flaws. It really does. But, It wasn't religion that nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Russia killed religion and communism came and stayed.

So as far as I see it. Looking at it logically. Religion has done a lot less harm in the 20th and 21st century than the scientist and governments that supposedly more "reason" minded people have placed their "faith" in.



Jose


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## Markleford (Sep 2, 2005)

Well, Hitler has finally shown up in this thread, which is generally a good sign that it's gone on far too long. 

Exit... stage left...

- m


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## José Herring (Sep 2, 2005)

Really, where?


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## fictionmusic (Sep 2, 2005)

Hardy Heern said:


> You're talking about 'faith' as if its a good human quality. I think that 'faith' is, potentially, a human failing......'blind faith' 'Loyalty' is also a similarly abused and misused human characteristic......frequently not an admirable trait.  as in 'a loyal servant'.......an idiot, possibly?
> 
> Frank



I agree faith might not always be an admirable human quality but it is very much a dominant one. It seems inescapable. I just think that if you were to do away with religion, faith would rear its head in some other just as dangerous form. (and quite frankly, the amount of people I know who are religious and are good people is pretty high, so from my personal experience I am hesitant to dismiss religion as close-minded or inherently evil)



markleford said:


> Well, Hitler has finally shown up in this thread, which is generally a good sign that it's gone on far too long.
> 
> Exit... stage left...



Yah my fault that. I was just trying to illustrate (poorly it seems) that religion isn't the only cause of human intolerance and "evil-doing".

[quote="ed]No, the idea that science can help our planet (or also destroy it) is not faith, its just obvious.[/quote]

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## Evan Gamble (Sep 4, 2005)

I wish he was my presedent :cry: 
Tells it how it is


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 6, 2005)

> Nick Batzdorf - this is your favorite subject and you're missing it!



Damn! I was out of town.

But you know what? This thread proves what I don't like about religion: it's divisive. You don't believe what I do, therefore you're wrong. And I apologize, but now I'll have to kill you.

Thank God I'm an atheist.

P.S. It's too late for prayers. Nobody knows how many thousands of people are dead. Every piece of shit from the past few centuries is floating around in what used to be New Orleans. I don't think any of us can fathom what a tragedy this is.

The only good that could come out this is if it sets our country's priorities right again. Maybe we'll go back to caring about people instead of spending all our money on wars.


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## Frederick Russ (Sep 6, 2005)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The only good that could come out this is if it sets our country's priorities right again. Maybe we'll go back to caring about people instead of spending all our money on wars.



So well put Nick. And I agree wholeheartedly. We needed some real hands on leadership and it was so sadly lacking.


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