# CUBASE: Hyperthreading, Multi-Core Functionality, and ASIO-Guard



## MitchellMiller (Dec 12, 2020)

Hi all, let me start this off by saying that I know that there is already information out there in other posts regarding what I am about to ask. There is tons of conflicting information though, and I’m just looking for a definite answer with some of these questions. I am upgrading my PC currently, and would like to optimize everything as best as possible.

*Computer Specs:*
Win 10
Cubase 10.5
*i9-10940x (14 core)*
96GB RAM
Program Files, Project Files, and VST Samples on separate SSDs

*Hyperthreading:*

In regards to hyperthreading, I’ve seen lots of conflicting information regarding the benefits to have it turned on or off. Considering my CPU _(i9-10940x 14 core)_, should hyperthreading be turned on or off? I use Kontakt the most in Cubase, which tends to max out single cores far before it puts any sort of load on the entire CPU especially with some script heavy sample libraries.

*ASIO Guard:*

Here’s another topic that I see a lot of conflicting information. Some posts I see say to have ASIO Guard turned off if using script heavy instances in Kontakt. I’m currently running into an issue with some of Spitfire’s sample libraries maxing out the buffer and causing dropouts, and the first thing Spitfire mentioned to me was to turn off ASIO Guard. That seems very counter-productive though, as Cubase clearly has this feature for a reason in order to maximize multi-core CPU usage. So, what should ASIO Guard be set to in certain situations?

Appreciate all the help!


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## Paul Jelfs (Dec 12, 2020)

I have tried for years, with an up to date PC to get the best performance out of Cubase with Kontakt and other libraries, and a lot of it comes down to the way the Kontakt libraries were programmed- Some older ones crackle and pop on my Raydat PCIE card, at 256 , even with nothing else going on. 

I keep ASIO guard on , and leave it that way, unless there is a clear problem with a sample library etc.

You will probably find better performance on such a powerful and large system, using VEpro 7 locally with Cubase - that way if there is a crash , you still have your samples etc. Not only that , but I tend to find Cubase 10.5 runs better with Ve Pro local, than it does with say 40+ instrument tracks. 

Your mileage may vary, but its worth trying. 

Cubase did have an issue with more than 14 cores (or something like that) but that has been solved, so I don't think you should disable Hyper threading. 

I have some problems with some spitfire libraries even with nothing else going on - some of them are really heavy etc - The best way to check if it is Cubase causing it, or if its the library itself, is to test it in Kontakt standalone, with same buffer sizes, and see if it still pops and glitches (Mine do). 

What Audio interface do you currently have? Depending on what you have, investing in one of the best for latency is probably going to get you much more performance than messing with the setttings etc .

Im no expert just experience, so if any one else chimes in with more info great


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## MitchellMiller (Dec 12, 2020)

Paul Jelfs said:


> I have tried for years, with an up to date PC to get the best performance out of Cubase with Kontakt and other libraries, and a lot of it comes down to the way the Kontakt libraries were programmed- Some older ones crackle and pop on my Raydat PCIE card, at 256 , even with nothing else going on.
> 
> I keep ASIO guard on , and leave it that way, unless there is a clear problem with a sample library etc.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reply. I'm using a Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 (2nd Gen). Not the greatest audio interface, but nothing that should cause issues. 

I'll do extensive testing once I receive the upgraded PC, and figure out what works best. Just wish there was some consistency when it comes to these optimizations.


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## Paul Jelfs (Dec 12, 2020)

The Focusrite is a nice bit of kit - especially for recording multiple instruments.

If you are going to be using a lot of VST instruments in Cubase , I highly suggest your next investment should be an RME PCIE card - as that will allow you to run libraries like Spitfire etc at lower buffer settings etc .

Good luck with your new machine.


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## Allen Constantine (Dec 12, 2020)

Paul Jelfs said:


> The Focusrite is a nice bit of kit - especially for recording multiple instruments.
> 
> If you are going to be using a lot of VST instruments in Cubase , I highly suggest your next investment should be an RME PCIE card - as that will allow you to run libraries like Spitfire etc at lower buffer settings etc .
> 
> Good luck with your new machine.



What do you think about this one?









RME Fireface 802


USB and Firewire Audio Interface 24 Bit, 192 khz, Incl. DSP mixer with EQ, dynamics and reverb, 4 Analog mic preamps with gain control, Remote control for inputs via software, 8 Analog inputs and outputs bal. jack, Outputs 9/10 and 11/12 as...




www.thomann.de


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## Paul Jelfs (Dec 12, 2020)

ALL RME interfaces, are low latency, stable and reliable - So that would be a great choice. 

I personally use their PCIE Card, linked to an interface with lots of inputs etc for the LOWEST latency possible and best performance. But that is because I work with loads of VSTs .


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## Allen Constantine (Dec 13, 2020)

Paul Jelfs said:


> ALL RME interfaces, are low latency, stable and reliable - So that would be a great choice.
> 
> I personally use their PCIE Card, linked to an interface with lots of inputs etc for the LOWEST latency possible and best performance. But that is because I work with loads of VSTs .



So, you have a PCIE card( which one from RME?) linked to a RME interface?

Would be interested in a new setup because I need to switch from the Focusrite PRO 26... (lack of updated drivers)!


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## AllanH (Dec 13, 2020)

While I have an older PC than you and a Motu interface, here are the settings that works the best for me:
1) Cubase Asio guard ON
2) Threading ON in bios.
3) Threading OFF in Kontakt VST instances. [this lets Cubase decide how to distribute the work load]
4) Hibernation off in bios. Ditto for the "low power-state" settings. [this was important for my system]

Finally, and I'm somewhat guessing here: it's typically one of the threads that maxes out (look at task manager). Bounce tracks until you find out which track appears to be source, and then render that one. For me, I often have to render dense Chamber Strings tracks using the ensemble and lots of notes.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Dec 13, 2020)

Paul Jelfs said:


> ALL RME interfaces



Actually I don't care that much for their hardware, but their Windows drivers are _miles_ ahead of anything else.


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## Paul Jelfs (Dec 13, 2020)

One more thing, always check your Overclocked Audio power plan or whatever it is called is active - as on balanced you may have problems. You can save your own profile with various tweaks, like stopping stuff from low power / sleeping. 

RME Raydat hooked up to UA Apollo - That is obviously its own Interface - It was a toss up between RME UFX (i think), UA Apollo and possibly the Antelope Zen Core. 

However, as I had to sell my UAD-2 card to fund part of the cost, It made sense to go with UA since I had some of their plugins and wanted to be able to use them. I would probably go RME though next time, as they have their own DSP and allow up to 4 instrument / guitar inputs at once, without the need for a DI box etc - And it would give great back up performance if the Raydat went down etc. 

The 802 is still a fine interface - even over USB2. Will give you better performance in terms of latency than the Focusrite. Just make sure it plug it directly in to the motherboard, no hub etc.


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## Paul Jelfs (Dec 13, 2020)

Sorry - you could keep the Focusrite as a Mixer, and get a RME pcie card - Like the Raydat or AIO - The focusrite has ADAT yes, SPDIF , does it have AES ? Which I find is the best connection type when its available. 

That would give you the best latency for VST instruments , if that matters to you.


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## TAFKAT (Dec 17, 2020)

MitchellMiller said:


> *Hyperthreading:*
> 
> In regards to hyperthreading, I’ve seen lots of conflicting information regarding the benefits to have it turned on or off. Considering my CPU _(i9-10940x 14 core)_, should hyperthreading be turned on or off? I use Kontakt the most in Cubase, which tends to max out single cores far before it puts any sort of load on the entire CPU especially with some script heavy sample libraries.



The changes in C10 and the resulting thread limiting was originally announced as a fix for the MMCSS threading issue, but now seems the excuse has shifted to HT on their official thread at the forum ( thread now locked )

FWIW - Hyperthreading has never been an issue on 100's of mission critical Windows DAW system environments I have delivered over the years. Steinbergs often skewed and confused narrative re Hypthreading from what I can make out is due them blurring issues cross platform , i.e - they definitely have an issue with HT on OSX and then merged/blurred that narrative across to Windows.

On Windows 10, the current core limiting of the realtime engine above 6 core / 12 thread CPUs has the result of dropping 1/2 available logical cores -1. This they claim is to eliminate the realtime engine running on the HT cores/threads. I suspect this was a decision originally related to OSX, but has somehow navigated its way across to Windows 10. Then to confuse matters even more, on Windows 10 they assign all subsequent threads after the 1st which runs on a physical core, onto the HT cores, which makes no sense at all to me, as this is in direct contradiction to the Anti HT angle they are proposing.

Confusing ? ! You bet !




> Here’s another topic that I see a lot of conflicting information. Some posts I see say to have ASIO Guard turned off if using script heavy instances in Kontakt. I’m currently running into an issue with some of Spitfire’s sample libraries maxing out the buffer and causing dropouts, and the first thing Spitfire mentioned to me was to turn off ASIO Guard. That seems very counter-productive though, as Cubase clearly has this feature for a reason in order to maximize multi-core CPU usage. So, what should ASIO Guard be set to in certain situations?
> 
> Appreciate all the help!



You will need to keep ASIO Guard On with C10+ , seems Spitfire have missed what is actually being navigated with AG Off since C10's change to the threading.

Cubase 10 and above is hobbled with ASIO Guard Off ( forcing the audio engine to realtime only ), as it will drop 1/2 the total Logical Threads -1 as I noted previously, i.e - your 10940X - 14 Core/28 threads, will have 13 total logical available , 12 of those being HT threads ( unless W10 is completely screwing up the display order, which I doubt ).

There are also curves navigated if you run your Kontakt instances with multiple parts, as it can cause thread collision if using the Kontakt Multithreading and Cubase when track arming/realtime monitor/playing which forces the thread limiting. Switching Off Kontakts internal Multithreading is one option, but if using multiple parts per instance, then you will be flooding a core pretty quickly, as Cubase cannot assign threading from one VI instance across multiple threads.

I have written volumes about these issues being navigated over the last 12 months, I won't flood this forum again with the reports, they are easy enough to find for those interested.

FWIW - Cubase 11 press release claimed they had improved performance of sessions using heavier realtime environments for 8 + cores systems, which some thought they had resolved the thread limiting issue of C10* , they have not. Still identical behavior of limiting 1/2 - 1 number of total logical cores.


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## Paul Jelfs (Dec 18, 2020)

Interesting stuff Vin,

Can you tell me how VE Pro 7 deals with these issues - Better or worse - especially assigning threads is always a difficult one to choose

PJ


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## Paul Jelfs (Dec 18, 2020)

The Problem is - Some SINGLE instrument Kontakt instruments Hit their Cpu Limit on EVEN Large Buffers - as Kontakt does not have an option to ENABLE Multi threading in Single / Vst - Its all or nothing .

Plently of instruments when this option is disabled with pop and crack very soon, can name many if anyone wants to reproduce. 

PJ


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## TAFKAT (Dec 18, 2020)

Paul Jelfs said:


> Interesting stuff Vin,
> 
> Can you tell me how VE Pro 7 deals with these issues - Better or worse - especially assigning threads is always a difficult one to choose
> 
> PJ



Hey Paul,

VEP isn't effected by the MMCSS threading limits, so can thread to all available logical cores.

That can be a workaround for the curves being navigated with C10/11's realtime thread assignments , however ASIO Guard needs to remain on , which could cause some issues with various configurations with VEP.

I have numerous high end clients running VEP natively and also with slaves that have found AG needed to be off to obtain the required stability within the sessions , and with one of those clients in particular it was easier to stay on Cubase 9.*.

In this instance, 9960X 16 Core/32 thread system, I applied the unofficial MMCSS thread fix that assigned 128 threads to the MMCSS process, that completely resolved the earlier issue that forced Steinberg to limit to 14 threads total , and the system rocks, no spiking when using Kontakt natively with multiple parts and track arming one of those instruments ( as in 10+ ) , no thread limiting, all 32 threads available with both AG On/Off, etc

That client is wanting to move to C11, but with AG off essentially hobbling the threading as I have detailed, its not an option unless a stable VEP configuration can be sorted with AG On.

I do need to investigate further how VEP behaves with C10/11 with AG on and larger VEP based configurations, maybe some others reading in can give some feedback if they are running VEP with AG on successfully.


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## Paul Jelfs (Dec 19, 2020)

Thank you Vin. 

Great to talk to someone that knows so much about Cubase . I will be using Ve Pro 7 natively with Cubase 10.5 (might upgrade) , however, I have got a Komplete Kontrol S61 MK2, and I wanted to make use of its functions and automation, which is much harder via VE Pro 7 - last time I checked.

I have a 9940x i9 , one down from the one you mention with a silly amount of Ram. Would this MMCSS fix be worth it for my machine (14 cores - 28 threads) and also , does it allow Kontakt to access more threads without turning on Hyperthreading ?

I do keep on ASIO guard all the time, as I have found performance more stable in general. Even with Ve pro loca- but I tend to host "extras" in Ve Pro, and not massive projects. 

I have a few Kontakt patches I would like to use in Cubase , via Komplete Kontrol s61, that spike out unless Multi threading is on in Kontakt - Can you advise the best way or any fix for me to let me use , a dozen - 24 KK instances in Cubase, a lot hosting Kontakt, and get better performance from Kontakt - if there is a way. 

Also is it worth upgrading to 11 as Steinberg did talk about improved performance - I noticed you said this still is not in place. 

I have a RME Raydat, and no latency issues, so you think I should be able to use All single patches in Cubase ! 

Finally, what sort of problems would I encounter if I just said - Stuff it, and used Multi threading Cubase and Kontact ?

Sorry about all these questions but your answers are so helpful ! 

PJ


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## TAFKAT (Dec 19, 2020)

Paul Jelfs said:


> I have a 9940x i9 , one down from the one you mention with a silly amount of Ram. Would this MMCSS fix be worth it for my machine (14 cores - 28 threads) and also , does it allow Kontakt to access more threads without turning on Hyperthreading ?



Kontakt was never effected by the MMCSS limiting , and the fix would not be of value on your current configuration running C10+. It was only of real value with C9 ( or earlier ), running on W10, where it completely resolved the MMCSS thread limit ceiling Cubase was hitting.

Its not something I can pass on any way, as I am under certain obligations to not share that publicly as it will always remain "unoffical", and there are too many caveats attached re OS updates overwriting the patch as they flag the fix as rogue. I have spoken about the reasoning in greater detail on blog posts and podcast , it was never even meant to be made public there was an unofficial fix . This was something I worked closely with a contact at MS to get across the line to resolve the issue for my own clients with higher core systems on C9, that were being crippled by the thread limiting.

We passed the fix to Steinberg to help find a solution for them quietly and away from public view. Well that was the plan, but they chose another path that has resulted in the changes in C10+ that introduced the thread limiting of the realtime engine.



> I do keep on ASIO guard all the time, as I have found performance more stable in general. Even with Ve pro loca- but I tend to host "extras" in Ve Pro, and not massive projects.



If thats working for you, then that should be fine.



> I have a few Kontakt patches I would like to use in Cubase , via Komplete Kontrol s61, that spike out unless Multi threading is on in Kontakt - Can you advise the best way or any fix for me to let me use , a dozen - 24 KK instances in Cubase, a lot hosting Kontakt, and get better performance from Kontakt - if there is a way.



Let me be clear, are you saying you need to have Kontakt MT even on single patches/instruments running in a Kontakt instance to level out the spikes ?

Steinberg ( via a trusted test partner ), made it very clear that they do not recommend or support Kontakt MT being enabled as it causes thread collision with their own threading modes. This was forwarded after we ran into issues early on with DAWbench Cubase Kontakt test sessions, where there was a massive spiked core hampering the testing in C10. This is before we discovered the thread limiting with AG Off because Kontakt was masking that and threading across all available cores. It was interesting in that I have for many years had numerous clients running Kontakt in that exact manner with multiple instruments per instance with MT on, in C9 and below, Windows 7 , 10 with MMCSS fix, with no issue , and the DAWbench session in question had been running that style of testing environment for many years. All of the fun started with C10/Windows 10



> Also is it worth upgrading to 11 as Steinberg did talk about improved performance - I noticed you said this still is not in place.



I didn't measure any performance improvements worth noting.



> I have a RME Raydat, and no latency issues, so you think I should be able to use All single patches in Cubase !
> 
> Finally, what sort of problems would I encounter if I just said - Stuff it, and used Multi threading Cubase and Kontact ?



Leaving AG On and using Kontakt in single patch mode would probably be the safest option in C10+, the problem using Kontakt MT / MultiPart Instances is that when you track arm/monitor/play live on one of the intruments in the multipart instance, it forces all of the instruments to the realtime, not just the one armed, and I have seen it cause spikes by doing that.

If you are needing Kontakt MT to be on to level out even a single instrument instance, I am not sure what is happening there, unless Kontakt is threading scripting, etc to other threads, as it really should not be using more than one thread if its a single instrument instance ?

There is still a lot of grey area for me with how exactly Kontakt MT v Cubase MT arbitrate around each other , but I have seen a significant change in how the C10+ engine interacts when track arming/monitoring an instrument within a multipart Kontaklt instance. In C9 ( MMCSS Fix ), AG On/Off , there is zero change in resource levels, in C10 even with AG On, same action results in a spike.

I have explained this behaviour in great detail on by DAWbench FB page ( Steinberg vs Windows 10 MMCSS ! ) and in other threads. I don't think its fair to link directly here tho.


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## Paul Jelfs (Dec 20, 2020)

Ah great. Thanks for that .

I do have Cubase 9, though obviously that would limit the threads , but I believe I have the fix or access to it ,from Daniel from Steinberg. 

So I guess what you are saying, is if i HAVE to have Kontakt Multi threading on, it needs to be C9, with the core fix. 

Hmm thats a lot of sacrifice. And even then its not officially supported. 

Cool, I will check out your site for more information. 

In terms of Kontakt MT for single patches -yes, for a few, (For instance Project Sam Pandora with its clever Algo can easy spike at 512 on one core, one patch) and for a few multis that use the same channel - (Cinestring, and Cinebrass for like Violins, legato in Octaves.

My goal is to use , as many Komplete KOntrol instances as possible per template, as it makes it easy to find the sound, adjust and record automation and changes - but obviously not ALL kontakt , but Kontakt is the main stay of my work flow. 

I take it this is what you do for a living - set up systems?


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## TAFKAT (Dec 20, 2020)

Paul Jelfs said:


> Ah great. Thanks for that .
> 
> I do have Cubase 9, though obviously that would limit the threads , but I believe I have the fix or access to it ,from Daniel from Steinberg.
> 
> ...



C9 / MMCSS fix was the last version that had a more balanced interaction with Kontakt running MT , I am not suggesting that you roll back there, just clarifying the performance variables before / after the change in C10+

Also its worth mentioning that the impact of Kontakt spiking when track arming will vary depending on how many instruments in the Multi -i.e, the higher the number of instruments, the higher the impact.

Re having access to the fix via Steinberg, hmmmm, that is and will remain a bone of contention for me in how they chose to manage ( mismanage) the information we forwarded. Not that the fix was used, but in the way they chose to make it available. In hindsight, I regret they were given the fix they had zero interest or involvement in getting across the line, managed so badly, and then rejected it and went in a completely different direction in how to manage the MMCSS situation, but I digress.



> Cool, I will check out your site for more information.



FYI DAWbench website is currently in archival mode, current information is at FB and GS.

PM me if you want further details/links.



> In terms of Kontakt MT for single patches -yes, for a few, (For instance Project Sam Pandora with its clever Algo can easy spike at 512 on one core, one patch) and for a few multis that use the same channel - (Cinestring, and Cinebrass for like Violins, legato in Octaves.



Interesting re the Pandora Library, as that is a single patch, but the Multis are not overly surprising as with MT off it will all be landing on one core, no matter whether its on the same channel or across multiple channels.



> I take it this is what you do for a living - set up systems?



I have been providing PC DAW solutions for over 2 decades locally in Australia , I'll follow Netiquette and respect the rules of the forum by not peddling my wares here, so to speak , but the first link in my signature gives a hint


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## AR (Dec 23, 2020)

So, I tested Cubase 11 on my i9 14core machine. No significant less Real-Time-Peak compared to Cubase 10.5 on a 2000 track template with local VePro 7. I had more hopes in that new Steinberg release. One thing that made me curious though in v11...it always hits 100% as soon as I hit Stop/Play (no crashes/glitches whatsoever in Playblack). Is that a bug?


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## TAFKAT (Dec 23, 2020)

AR said:


> So, I tested Cubase 11 on my i9 14core machine. No significant less Real-Time-Peak compared to Cubase 10.5 on a 2000 track template with local VePro 7. I had more hopes in that new Steinberg release.



As I noted in a previous reply, no significant change in the RT performance that I could quantify, so not really sure what performance improvements they were referring to in the release blurbs.

Having said that, I did have one client note a small change in TM/RT reading for a given session when I asked for some feedback on a 10980XE system, but how that translates to actually running the sessions to break point remains unanswered.

Is ASIOGuard On or Off in your C11 configuration, and are any of the VI's running natively in Cubase itself, or all running under VEP ?



> One thing that made me curious though in v11...it always hits 100% as soon as I hit Stop/Play (no crashes/glitches whatsoever in Playblack). Is that a bug?



What as the behaviour in C10.* with the same template regards RT peak under Stop/Play ?


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## AR (Dec 23, 2020)

TAFKAT said:


> As I noted in a previous reply, no significant change in the RT performance that I could quantify, so not really sure what performance improvements they were referring to in the release blurbs.
> 
> Having said that, I did have one client note a small change in TM/RT reading for a given session when I asked for some feedback on a 10980XE system, but how that translates to actually running the sessions to break point remains unanswered.
> 
> ...


AG is always off in both versions. Kontakt, SINE, Spitfire plugin are all hosted in VEPro. In Cubase 10 the moment I hit Stop/Play the RT goes a little up and then settles back. No Peaks here. Same project file.

Actually AG (at low or normal) works fine with my VEPro (no crashes or freezes), but it gives me additional latency on the output. I'm using another i9 w/ Cubase 10 just hosting Cinematic Rooms and Gulfoss on several Busses that are wired through 3 RME cards back to my main machine. So running 256 buffer on my main machine already means I have 384 buffers before sound leaves my speakers.


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## TAFKAT (Dec 25, 2020)

AR said:


> AG is always off in both versions. Kontakt, SINE, Spitfire plugin are all hosted in VEPro. In Cubase 10 the moment I hit Stop/Play the RT goes a little up and then settles back. No Peaks here. Same project file.



With AG Off on your 14 Core system, Cubase will only thread to 13 logical cores of the 28 available ( 14 Real / 14 Logical ), and all but the first thread are landing on HT ( Logical ) Cores , so depending on how much your are hosting in Cubase natively, that could be quite a significant performance hit.

And there lies the catch 22/caveats navigated with C10/11 on certain configuration due to the MMCSS changes that introduced the thread limiting any time the real time engine is engaged. Sounds like there are some additional curves in C11 on your rig over C10 with the realtime spike.




> Actually AG (at low or normal) works fine with my VEPro (no crashes or freezes), but it gives me additional latency on the output. I'm using another i9 w/ Cubase 10 just hosting Cinematic Rooms and Gulfoss on several Busses that are wired through 3 RME cards back to my main machine. So running 256 buffer on my main machine already means I have 384 buffers before sound leaves my speakers.



I am interested in getting some more clarification regards VEP and AG, as this has been a bit of a sticking point for some of my clients moving forward with C10+.

When track armed/playing instruments live there should be no additional latency over the hardware buffer settings as its forced to the reatime engine , the question is more so how the additional hybrid buffer is managed regards VEP ?

Can you give me some more detail on that if possible ?


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## AR (Dec 26, 2020)

TAFKAT said:


> And there lies the catch 22 with C10/11, with the MMCSS changes that introduced the thread limiting any time the real time engine is engaged.
> 
> With AG Off on your 14 Core system, Cubase will only thread to 13 logical cores of the 28 available ( 14 Real / 14 Logical ), and all but the first thread are landing on HT ( Logical ) Cores , so depending on how much your are hosting in Cubase natively, that could be quite a significant performance hit.
> 
> ...


Yes, you are right. When tracks armed in Cubase, the program itself doesn't add up latency. But, and here comes the interesting point, many plugins generate latency itself. On my second i9 I try to use only vst3 plugins that have max 4ms latency. I don't remember exactly, either Gulfoss or Soothe2 has a very big amount of latency. That's why I don't use it anymore, unfortunately :/

My dream was a single computer rig with a i9 housing everything in it to save energy consumption. Sadly it didn't work out. That's why I had to build another Cubase rig that handles intense audioprocessing (like reverb etc). 
So on my first rig inside VEPro I just use one single instance. Period. How I do that with 2000+ tracks? I have like 3-4 dedicated stereooutputs for each instrument and premix (loudness of all mic positions) in Kontakt or whatever VI itself before it goes to VEPro and then to Cubase. That's how I managed to stay below 768 stereo outputs (the max one VEPro instance can handle). I tried several instances of VEPro, but that raises the RT-meter in Cubase. 
In this main Cubase I handle all the Midi and having little bit of spacial treatment and noise reduction before all is channeled to (mostly) 4.0 stems. My hardware is a combination of AIO, Raydats and several 9652s (which are connected through PCIe to PCI bridges). Everything on RME side runs 110% stable. I route everything through Adat pipes back and forth between the 2 computers. A dedicated clock is the key here! And I also make use of SPDIF and AES channels. That gives me an total count of 60+ channels. Having a few analog outputs for the loudspeakers left.
This main rig can playback for example HZ Strings with all the mics switched on without crackle and pops, thanks to NVMe drives. I tested this Intel thingy??, but thats crap. I got the real NVMes and never looked back. (Btw I normally don't use that much mics in HZ Strings. But it's nice to know that it can.) It has 256gb of RAM and a NVidia Quadro graphics card.

On my second rig (a i9 9900k with poorly 16gb of RAM) another Cubase 10 gets everything in Quad-stems. Why another Cubase? Well, I'm no ProTools guy. Sorry :( ...I would have used a cheaper Cubase version here, but I'm also using this machine as my video playback. And therfor only the pro version works with DAW sync. In this system I run all the heavy processing plugins like Cinematic Rooms, Waves CLA, Gulfoss, etc. each for every stem channel. That's like 8 Cinematic Rooms simultaneously :((( But that CPU is rock solid. Clocked to 5Ghz stable (I think it's even better than my 10940x). My second rig is also the computer I'm recording live stuff on.
I print all midi and audio stems to separate drives. There are only SSDs and NVMes drives installed. All tested WD Black Edition, Seagate Barracudas HDDs give just pops and crackles sooner or later. After processing the audio, the stems are routed back to my first computer.

Giving the fact that i9s are very power hungry (especially when overclocked) I'm able to let the second computer stay off during composing process. That saves me a little bit. Compared to my old rig, which consisted of 4 i7 3rd/4th gen CPUs w/ 32GB RAM each, I'd say the power consumption now is way less. I can't tell it for sure, cause I have it just a year. But the generated heat in my sever room is less.


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## PaulieDC (Dec 27, 2020)

MitchellMiller said:


> Hi all, let me start this off by saying that I know that there is already information out there in other posts regarding what I am about to ask. There is tons of conflicting information though, and I’m just looking for a definite answer with some of these questions. I am upgrading my PC currently, and would like to optimize everything as best as possible.
> 
> *Computer Specs:*
> Win 10
> ...


I have a nearly identical PC, and was running a PreSonus Studio 192 Mobile AI. Studio One v4 was a bowl of Rice Krispies. Ditched it all in March 2019 and went to Cubase 10 Pro. Situation got better but not perfect. Bought an RME BabyFace Pro, and it works wonderfully. I track at 256 or 128 if there are some minor pops. I mix at 2048 of course and that’s pristine. No guarantees of course but it worked for me. I also forced myself to figure out RME’s TotalMix FX which many hate, but now that I figured it out, what a great monitor control center. The Loopback function is so useful, can record any audio, YouTube or otherwise, right into Cubase. I say try the BF Pro, you can always return it.


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## PaulieDC (Dec 27, 2020)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Actually I don't care that much for their hardware, but their Windows drivers are _miles_ ahead of anything else.


Not sure I’ve heard anyone say that before, lol! It’s well built but hey, to each his own.


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## AR (Jan 16, 2021)

TAFKAT said:


> With AG Off on your 14 Core system, Cubase will only thread to 13 logical cores of the 28 available ( 14 Real / 14 Logical ), and all but the first thread are landing on HT ( Logical ) Cores , so depending on how much your are hosting in Cubase natively, that could be quite a significant performance hit.
> 
> And there lies the catch 22/caveats navigated with C10/11 on certain configuration due to the MMCSS changes that introduced the thread limiting any time the real time engine is engaged. Sounds like there are some additional curves in C11 on your rig over C10 with the realtime spike.
> 
> ...


Hey Tafkat,

I recently installed Cubase 9 to check, if my template consumes more CPU in idle than C10/11. Did download the properties file to limit the threads for C9. So here are my stats of that Orchestral Tools template in idle (consumes 211gb RAM) - (btw:This is the 10920x w/ RME HDSpe 256buffers MMCSS-limit on, VePro and Cubase all on the same machine):
C9 AG off: -realtime-peak ~28-29%
-average load: ~27%
-task-manager:32-33%

C10.5 AG off: -realtime-peak ~28-33% (very jumpy)
-average load: 27%
-task-manager: 28%

C10.5 AG on (lo): -realtime-peak: ~28-29%
-average load: 40%
-task manager: 35%

C11 AG off: -realtime-peak: ~28-33% (very jumpy)
-average load: 28%
-task manager: 29-31%

C11 AG on (lo): -realtime-peak: ~28%
-average load: 40%
-task-manager: 35-37%

So far Cubase 9 provided the best results. I excluded C9 w/ AG on cause it wasn't any good. But as you (probably already) knew, C9 performs better on Win10 compared to C10/11 even with AG on. I would die to get my hands on the mmcss fix to check Cubase 9 with all cores to see if it performs better with my VePro template. Oh, btw. in VePro I had my (only) instance on 20 threads.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jan 16, 2021)

Is it expected for Cubase to eat up CPU just by having plugins on FX channels, even if no audio is going through them? I have Spaces II and Cinematic Rooms on a number of FX channels and the Cubase meter jumps to like 35%, with everything idle. I have suspend VST3 processing with no audio turned on. In Logic, the same setup will not move the CPU meter at all.


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## AR (Jan 17, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Is it expected for Cubase to eat up CPU just by having plugins on FX channels, even if no audio is going through them? I have Spaces II and Cinematic Rooms on a number of FX channels and the Cubase meter jumps to like 35%, with everything idle. I have suspend VST3 processing with no audio turned on. In Logic, the same setup will not move the CPU meter at all.


Unfortunately yes. Please check if you have vst3 setting "while not in use" checked in the Cubase settings. By default it's unchecked.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jan 17, 2021)

AR said:


> Unfortunately yes. Please check if you have vst3 setting "while not in use" checked in the Cubase settings. By default it's unchecked.


I have that setting checked, but it seems like it only applies to audio and instrument tracks. For FX and group tracks, the plugins are always active and using CPU, even with no audio flowing through them.

Need to do some more testing, but I feel Cubase is getting stressed much much faster than Logic on my machine. Even if the CPU meter is not high, my iMac's fans kick in very early.


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## skfno (Jan 18, 2021)

I think I have issues that may relate to this thread.
Stumbling on to the thread has been a real eye opener. It appears that I have been living in ignorance to all these pitfalls when combining cubase 10.5, Kontakt with VSL ensemble Pro 7 on 1 master and 3 slave computers. 
I have for many years operated with a very old but reliable system which consisted of (Cubase 5, 3 Sonic core (Creamware ) sound cards and their 16 channel AD- DA converter and a variety of plugins. I started using VSL Ensemble pro 6 with it for a while succesfully before deciding a few months back to update everything. I assembled a set up which is as follows: 

A master computer running Windows 10, Cubase 10.5 and assorted FX and insert plugins. The cpu is I7 6700, mother board is ASUS B105M-C with 32gb ram
The slave computers are all HP Elitedesk G1 or G2 (I7 4700 or I7 6700 cpu and similar quantities of ram). All drives are SSD but most sample libraries are on external ssd's attached via usb3 to the mainboard.
The soundcard on the Master computer is a RME Raydat combined with a RME HDSP 9632 combined with 2 Sonic Core A16 Ultra AD-DA 16 channel converters. Everything is synced and running at 96k (SMUX).
Recording audio causes no issues and all projects start off fine until I have been using the slaves for VST instruments for a while (often Kontakt but only ever one instrument per instance) . Then the odd spike becomes audible. From this point if you continue it gets progresively worse to the point of out and consistant distortion. If left for a while, on return the soundcard is not passing any audio at all. 
I found that if I disable the soundcard driver in Cubase then immediately reconnect it. For a while everything will be fine again but after inconsistant lengths of time ( sometimes a few minutes sometime much longer) the scenario repeats itself. None of the CPU's seem to be running particularly high.
I would be grateful for any response to my query. I am feeling out of my depth here but the problem has similarites to the thread and wondered if my issue ties in with al this. 
Kind regards to everyone,
Steve


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## TAFKAT (Jan 18, 2021)

AR said:


> So far Cubase 9 provided the best results. I excluded C9 w/ AG on cause it wasn't any good. But as you (probably already) knew, C9 performs better on Win10 compared to C10/11 even with AG on. I would die to get my hands on the mmcss fix to check Cubase 9 with all cores to see if it performs better with my VePro template. Oh, btw. in VePro I had my (only) instance on 20 threads.



The Unofficial MMCSS patch is most beneficial when using instruments natively within Cubase when using the realtime engine, either with AG Off or even track armed , as it doesn't shift the number of cores. With the earlier MMCSS Steinberg patch that limits to 14 threads total, not sure where they are actually landing to be honest , whether that is the first 14 in series - being both physical and logical , or whether its shifting them to either/or. I didn't pay enough attention back then to be honest, as I found the workaround unacceptable. But it seems cleaner than the changes made in C10+.

I have a few clients that have remained on C9 / AG off specifically due to VEP running on the same system as well as on slaves, and its very solid.

That Unofficial MMCSS fix was made available to Steinberg support but I doubt they will provide it now , send me a PM.


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## fafner (May 8, 2022)

Cubase 12 is out. Did anything change?


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