# What should I buy? (Specific requirements)



## Radagast (Aug 18, 2021)

Hello!

In the past I made tracks using Sibelius and soundfonts and it's been a few years but I'd like to step up my game as I get back into it. I have a fair bit of money to spend and I see there are a lot of big sales right now.

I do a lot of work with orchestral sound, so I was thinking something like EWQL Symphonic Orchestra as the basis. I do need other instruments like saxophones etc. As well as a good guitar pack, drums, and a couple nice pianos (I like Bosendorfer and Fazioli sounds).

Hardware wise, I have a custom-built very high-end Windows 10 PC with 64 GB of RAM, and I will have a dedicated SSD for music purposes. I also have a Roland FP-90 and a very nice speaker and headphone setup. So I should be looking at mostly software purchases.

Thanks for any help!


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## Mr Greg G (Aug 18, 2021)

It all comes down to your budget, how much would you be ready to spend?


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## Radagast (Aug 18, 2021)

Mr Pringles said:


> It all comes down to your budget, how much would you be ready to spend?


Whoops! I'd probably like to start in the $500-$1000 range. Can always add more later.


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## muk (Aug 18, 2021)

Hi Radagast, and welcome to the forum! What kind of music do you write? Epic/Hybrid? Cinematic? Concert hall? Depending on your answer, recommendations will change quite drastically. Also it's important to know how much experience you have with using sample libraries and a daw. It sounds like you are just starting to use sample libraries. Is that right?

If the last assumption is correct, I would try to choose one basic set for all your orchestral sounds. That way you have to learn but one library, instead of several different ones.

EWQL Symphonic Orchestra includes some very nice sounds indeed. Programming-wise it has begun to show its age though. There is no legato, for example. Soundwise it's classical/cinematic. It was recorded in a concert hall by a well-known engineer fromt he classical music world. Some alternatives that are more up to date are:

Spitfire Audio BBCSO (relatively wet sounding if you go for Core. Pro offers a lot more mic options, as well as a few more instruments. Solo Strings, for instance. A well rounded package at a very good price)

Eastwest Hollywood Orchestra OPUS (very comprehensive, relatively dry. Hollywood sound, as it says in the title)

VSL Synchronized Special Edition (this one has been recorded dry, and added artificial reverb and positioning on top. Very consistent recording and programming. VSL is quite liked for concert hall music, as it is very flexible. The downside is that some people call the sounds neutral and sterile).

Cinematic Studio Series (only Strings, Winds, and Brass released so far, so you would need to add percussion from elsewhere. Very consistent. Nice, if rather dark sound signature. The various legato transitions make it sound very alive. The downside is that you have to work to compensate for the various delays. Don't worry, it's not that difficult to learn. It just takes a bit of work for each mockup you do with these libraries).

These would be good as your basic orchestra if you write cinematic/concert hall music. If you write epic music, there might be better choices for you.


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## tritonely (Aug 18, 2021)

Hi there! That is already a very nice amount of RAM! If other specs of your build is comparable, most members as myself are very jealous haha. But what would be essential for me to work with my first sample libraries would be:
- a DAW for the the most control and detail in your midi work with the sample libraries instead of Sibelius
- a mod wheel to control dynamics and other details. Maybe something you would think you can do with the mouse, but for workflow, time saving and improvised playing together with dynamics control is a mod wheel a must. I see the Roland FP-90 doesn't have a modulation wheel. You could look for another digital piano with a wheel or make a combination where you put a very small midi keyboard on top of the left side of your Roland or above it like a Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol A25. Benefit with a small keyboard next to your piano is that you can set the small keyboard in the octave of your keyswitches for your articulations.

A few weeks ago I reinstalled EWSO Gold, but it was just way too much work with the older programming for the results you get. If I would start over to purchase sample libraries I would buy:
- SA BBCSO: all in one, most bang for your buck. Some parts like the brass I would replace with other libraries. The expanded legato's are amazing to improvise without key switching.
- packs of VSL Big Bang Orchestra: epic but also detailed sounding orchestra which you can buy per instrument(group). I have made my combination of packs to get an extraordinary amount of players in comparison with BBCSO (which is already a big symphonic orchestra) with: Zodiac, Fornax, Dorado, Orion, Kopernikus, Hercules. That way I have a full orchestra: strings, brass, woodwinds and percussion.
- Specifically Saxophones: Orchestral Tools has the new Duplex Saxophones, wonderful soloists with two moods, my favorite the blue moody ones.
- Specifically Piano's: Pianoteq 7 Stage to just play with the least latency. Since it's all modelled (no samples), some find it fake but in my ears it's pretty good and great for a piano player (in comparison to the sound from the digital piano). For sampled I would go for the VI Labs Modern U (as I prefer uprights) but otherwise Ravencroft from the same company (don't have it yet). Spitfire Audio's Jangle Box Piano with the mellow preset is amazing too, especially for the price.
Specifically Drums: Loops de La Creme Palace Rock Drums: versatile drums which I use in almost every project.
- Specifically Guitars: Musical Sampling PLCK: great guitars and other string instruments with a lightweight cpu and ram use (as Native Instruments guitars can get quite demanding)

When you have more budget I would choose between: Cinematic Studio (Solo) Strings, Performance Samples Vista, VSL Synchron Brass and Synchron Strings Pro, Spitfire Audio Albion Neo, Audio Imperia Nucleus, Cinesamples Sonore, (parts of) Tom Holkenborgs Brass.

But as I said earlier, the best and most realistic result will come from the setup which is in my opinion a DAW, a piano and a mod wheel (and if possible a small extra keyboard for key switching and one or a few midi knobs for vibrato and other details) to have the maximum control over those awesome sampled instruments.


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## Radagast (Aug 18, 2021)

Thanks for the quick replies!

I probably should have added that I did use EWQL SO before, a friend bought it around when it first came out and he let me mess around with it. I was using Sonar I think. 

What would a good DAW be to get right now?

I see both EWQL and VSL have Bosendorfer 290 (Imperial) instruments so good to know that's available  And I really love the sound of the BBCSO.

muk, I am sort of all over the map on compositions, from small chamber pieces to full orchestra to video game music to backing tracks in various genres. I do love some good epic music but I don't think I've written anything quite that good yet!

Would this be good for the midi controller? https://www.long-mcquade.com/44597/...-Audio/25_Key_Controller_-_4th_Generation.htm

One last thing - I am a student also (Masters) so if I can find anywhere that does student discounts... 

Thanks again.


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## SlHarder (Aug 18, 2021)

Radagast said:


> I was using Sonar I think.
> 
> What would a good DAW be to get right now?


Cakewalk is the up to date version of Sonar, and it's free, so painless to give it a try.


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## CatComposer (Aug 18, 2021)

Radagast said:


> Thanks for the quick replies!
> 
> I probably should have added that I did use EWQL SO before, a friend bought it around when it first came out and he let me mess around with it. I was using Sonar I think.
> 
> ...


I can highly recommend Studio One as a DAW.
I got Studio One Artist for free with my Presonus 24c Audio device.
There is also a free trial of Studio One.
I made the switch from Cubase Elements as it had severe limitations.
So far, I haven't encountered any limitations with Studio One and it's faster and uses less CPU than Cubase. 
It's also the most intuitive DAW I have used with mostly drag and drop functions.

If I had the money to spend like you, I would wait until Black Friday sales and get everything recommended by Anne Kathrin Dern.
For example she goes through many of the string libraries here, explaining why she does and doesn't use various ones.


She does orchestral mockups for a living and her Lord of the Rings Mockups showcase how impressive her libraries sound with minimal work.


With a name like Radagast, I think you'll enjoy listening to it! 😊


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## mybadmemory (Aug 19, 2021)

If you’re not that much into epic or hybrid I would recommend looking at BBCSO Core or Pro, Cinematic Studio Series, or the Cinesamples Core bundle (currently at 50% sale). I would also get at least 49 keys for the controller, but that’s me.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 19, 2021)

If your Roland FP-90 has USB, you can use that as your controller. I also highly recommend a good audio interface if you don't have one.


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## tritonely (Aug 19, 2021)

If you will fully replace your digital piano (for your studio work) with a midi keyboard with mod wheel, than replace it indeed with a 49+ keys keyboard. If you will use the piano to play your midi notes and use the midi keyboard for mod wheel work and key switching, than a smaller keyboard is fine. It's the endless competition between Cubase, Logic and Studio One for orchestral productions, and if you want freebies Reaper and Cakewalk can be added to the list. I use the edu discount at Spitfire (30%), Orchestral Tools (40%, even for single instruments), VSL (25%) and Cinematic Studio Series (around 30%).


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## Trash Panda (Aug 19, 2021)

Radagast said:


> muk, I am sort of all over the map on compositions, from small chamber pieces to full orchestra to video game music to backing tracks in various genres. I do love some good epic music but I don't think I've written anything quite that good yet!


I'll preface the novel below with the fact that I'm a relative newbie to orchestral samples and a hobbyist, so take these thoughts with a few grains of salt.

One thing to be aware of with sample libraries is they typically fill a niche. Despite what anyone says, there is not one singular library or series that can do everything at an A+ level. One library may have THAT sound you're looking for on a specific piece, but can't do others. 

Similarly, you may find another library can get the job done, but requires endless finagling and swapping out articulations and MIDI programming to try and Frankenstein something that remotely resembles the performance you hear in your head or are trying to recreate. Another library may very well do the same performance with much less effort expended on your part.

There also comes the question of where your priorities are from what you want out of your tools. 

Do you value the timbral quality of the instruments and the room they were recorded in above all else?
Do you value playability and ease of use over timbre/the sound of the room?
How much value do you place in consistency between round-robins, different techniques and instruments/groups from a tone, timing and volume perspective?
Do you want samples with baked in expression or do you want to add your own expressiveness?

Depending on where your priorities lie, answers on what is likely "the best" place to start with will vary.

Below are some of my personal opinions based on experiences over the past year.

*If your highest priority is a specific timbre/sound of the room: *
Spitfire Audio is probably your best bet, as they record in venues like AIR Lyndhurst, Maida Vale and Abbey Road, offering lots of microphone options. They have full symphonic options, chamber sized options and solo options.

Cinesamples recorded all of their orchestral libraries at the Sony Scoring stage. They offer lots of microphone options and give you that instant Hollywood sound out of the box.

EastWest Hollywood Orchestra is an older library, but is still considered one of the best sounding libraries for the Hollywood scoring sound. They just did a huge update to their player and added a sequencer to speed up the workflow of sketching out initial ideas.

Orchestral Tools is another good option as they do almost all of their recordings in Teldex Studio, offer comprehensive articulations and mic options with a number of different styles.

*If your highest priority is playability and ease of use: *
Aaron Venture Infinite Brass and Woodwinds are extremely playable. If you can think of an expression, you can play it right in. No stitching techniques together involved.

Performance Samples entire focus is making easy to use libraries with no frills. They tend to be a bit more specialized and niche in their application, so you may have to use a lot of different libraries to achieve each specialized role.

*If your highest priority is consistency: *
Audio Imperia and Cinematic Studio Series are unrivaled in this department. If the sonic signature matches what you're looking for, you can expect consistent results. Timings for pre-transient notes are standardized so you can compose to the grid and not have to worry about some round robins or articulations playing out of time. Samples are consistent in volume and timbre, so you don't have to worry about one weird staccato note jumping out and randomly ruining a passage. All sections are well balanced against each other out of the box so you can just load up a patch and go.

The only exception in consistency for these two is Cinematic Studio Series has different legato transition lengths for slow/medium/fast transitions, so you will have to get used to this as they don't use a lookahead feature or allow you to cut into the transition sample. If you're playing everything in anyways, you will likely get the hang of it.

*If your highest priority is your own personal expression in a performance:*
You're going to want modeled or semi-modeled options like Aaron Venture Infinite Series, Audio Modeling SWAM collection or Sample Modeling instruments. They'll sound flat and lifeless out of the box until YOU add the expression via CC controllers for dynamics, vibrato, etc. Not everyone likes the timbral quality of these options, but AV is consistently improving their timbre with each update to the Infinite Series.


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## Radagast (Aug 19, 2021)

This is great! I love the sound of BBC SO so far, I'm thinking of starting with that, probably get a brass upgrade (as a brass player myself, it's too obviously weak for me). Then I can add-on as needed.

I can get a 30% educational discount, will the Black Friday sale be better than that? I don't mind waiting, I won't have all THAT much time to play around with it before then and I can get the free Discover version in 14 days.

Eventually I'll probably get something like a Roland RD-2000 but for now I'll stick with the FP-90 and get a little controller for the extras.


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## CatComposer (Aug 19, 2021)

Radagast said:


> This is great! I love the sound of BBC SO so far, I'm thinking of starting with that, probably get a brass upgrade (as a brass player myself, it's too obviously weak for me). Then I can add-on as needed.
> 
> I can get a 30% educational discount, will the Black Friday sale be better than that? I don't mind waiting, I won't have all THAT much time to play around with it before then and I can get the free Discover version in 14 days.
> 
> Eventually I'll probably get something like a Roland RD-2000 but for now I'll stick with the FP-90 and get a little controller for the extras.


I have the free BBC SO and the brass seems to be the strongest section!
The strings are very weak.
Even the free Helix String Ensemble sounds better (and you don't have to wait 2 weeks for it).


I find that the BBC SO is just very limited in customizability and depth.
Definately get the free version of it before spending cash.

I plan to start the EW Composer Cloud monthly plan soon (only $29 per month), which gives access to dozens of great libraries.
That's something you should consider doing before Black Friday.
Black Friday sales are crazy good for some companies.
Do a google search for last year's sales to get an idea what percentage they usually do.

There are heaps of great threads on this forum to help you decide what's best as well as many youtube library comparison videos.
What did you think of Anne Dern's music?


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## CatComposer (Aug 19, 2021)

Radagast said:


> This is great! I love the sound of BBC SO so far, I'm thinking of starting with that, probably get a brass upgrade (as a brass player myself, it's too obviously weak for me). Then I can add-on as needed.


Check out the Opus Orchestrator in Eastwest which you get with the monthly subscription.
It comes with over 500 presets that will essentially teach you how to orchestrate.


It's one of the main reasons I'm getting it because I want to learn orchestration.


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## mybadmemory (Aug 19, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> I find that the BBC SO is just very limited in customizability and depth.
> Definately get the free version of it before spending cash.


Well. One could argue that the reason you feel these limitations is because it’s the free ultra lite version you’re describing. It is not in any way representative of the Core or Pro versions in sound or anything else.


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## CatComposer (Aug 20, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> Well. One could argue that the reason you feel these limitations is because it’s the free ultra lite version you’re describing. It is not in any way representative of the Core or Pro versions in sound or anything else.


Yeah, you're right.
I guess I was salivating after watching the demo on youtube but the out of the box experience of discover was underwhelming.
Still it's excellent for a freebie.
Do you happen to use Core or Pro?


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## mybadmemory (Aug 20, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> Yeah, you're right.
> I guess I was salivating after watching the demo on youtube but the out of the box experience of discover was underwhelming.
> Still it's excellent for a freebie.
> Do you happen to use Core or Pro?


I started with Core and later upgraded to Pro. I think they’re both fantastic. I do have the feeling that Discover might scare people away more than lure them in though. It’s just too scaled down to give anyone a proper sense of the great sound and value of the other two.


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## CatComposer (Aug 20, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> I started with Core and later upgraded to Pro. I think they’re both fantastic. I do have the feeling that Discover might scare people away more than lure them in though. It’s just too scaled down to give anyone a proper sense of the great sound and value of the other two.


Exactly. 
It has only 1 dynamic layer, no round robin and no legato.


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## mybadmemory (Aug 20, 2021)

Sseltenrych said:


> Exactly.
> It has only 1 dynamic layer, no round robin and no legato.


Yes, all that, and I think even more importantly not every note is an individual sample but each one is pitched and reused over quite a large range, and the overall sample quality is also lowered.

What’s impressive with Discover is the fact that it’s an entire orchestra in just 200mb, which is impressive, but it really should not be seen as a demo version of core or pro. It’s just not representative.


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## Justin L. Franks (Aug 27, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> Yes, all that, and I think even more importantly not every note is an individual sample but each one is pitched and reused over quite a large range, and the overall sample quality is also lowered.
> 
> What’s impressive with Discover is the fact that it’s an entire orchestra in just 200mb, which is impressive, but it really should not be seen as a demo version of core or pro. It’s just not representative.


BBCSO Core and Pro aren't chromatically sampled either. Very few libraries are. Like most libraries, it is sampled in whole steps, so each sample covers two notes. Still, it is significantly better than Discover in this regard. There is only so much you can fit in < 200 MB.

Hollywood Orchestra is one of the few that are chromatically sampled. It is arguable whether there is a noticeable sonic advantage over the standard whole-tone sampling. I don't think there is, especially if you have to give up an extra dynamic layer or some round-robins to do so.


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