# So what's so special about this guy called Drake?



## novicecomposer (Jul 6, 2018)

I occasionally check Spotify top charts and this #1 guy has eye popping 56M monthly listeners as of this writing while my hero Beethoven (nowhere near the chart) only has 2M and other well known guys like John Williams 2M and Zimmer 3M, who are all way outside the chart, too.

I tried to figure it out myself and took a listen but couldn't even stand the first few seconds of his music. It didn't sound special, complicated, elegant, or touch my heart at all. Easy music. Can some of you guys write something like that and put it on the top?


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## Kevin Fortin (Jul 6, 2018)

Well, it's a complex and diverse world, with various voices and various ears to hear them.

Just do your own thing according to your talents and don't worry too much about what other people are doing, unless they are coming at you with torches and pitchforks.


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## Rodney Money (Jul 6, 2018)

Today's hits are created to appeal to 13 year-olds. If you simply want hits, then you need to write for the simple minded.


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## Alex Niedt (Jul 6, 2018)

I'm going to guess you're generally not big on pop music, given you only referenced Beethoven, Williams, and Zimmer for comparison? There is an art to the simplicity that makes for a successful pop song.


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## Dear Villain (Jul 6, 2018)

It's far more than just the song; commercial music/entertainment is very image-based. Looks, personality, fit bodies, fashion, and endless marketing all contribute to success. The chosen ones, that is, the individuals that the machine gets behind, usually bring a sliver of musical ability, with a whole lot more that has nothing to do with music.


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## Zhao Shen (Jul 6, 2018)

Rodney Money said:


> Today's hits are created to appeal to 13 year-olds. If you simply want hits, then you need to write for the simple minded.



I'm going to step in here because you guys are being unfair to hip-hop. Which is understandable - I'm not a huge fan of the genre either. But I at least recognize its merits. Most of us appreciate solid _music_, whereas most of the time hip-hop is more about the creativity of the lyrics. 90% of rap with those booming 808s sounds more or less the same - it's the lyrics that add interest, and they are no easy feat. And then there are those rare rap songs that are actually extremely well constructed and interesting all the way through. 

But yeah, the generalization that all music that's popular is due to appealing to 13 year olds is pretty naive. Not to mention it's a bit arrogant to assume your musical taste is somehow more valid than millions of others, including many who have comparably advanced musical training.


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## CGR (Jul 6, 2018)

Zhao Shen said:


> I'm going to step in here because you guys are being unfair to hip-hop. Which is understandable - I'm not a huge fan of the genre either. But I at least recognize its merits. Most of us appreciate solid _music_, whereas most of the time hip-hop is more about the creativity of the lyrics. 90% of rap with those booming 808s sounds more or less the same - it's the lyrics that add interest, and they are no easy feat. And then there are those rare rap songs that are actually extremely well constructed and interesting all the way through.
> 
> But yeah, the generalization that all music that's popular is due to appealing to 13 year olds is pretty naive. Not to mention it's a bit arrogant to assume your musical taste is somehow more valid than millions of others, including many who have comparably advanced musical training.


Ditto!


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## Desire Inspires (Jul 6, 2018)

novicecomposer said:


> I tried to figure it out myself and took a listen but couldn't even stand the first few seconds of his music. His music doesn't sound special, complicated, elegant, or touch my heart at all. Easy music.



That is your problem: You are thinking too much!

Special, complicated, elegant music that touches your heart gets ignored. 

Simple and easy music works for popular music. If you want to be popular, dumb it down. If you want to touch people's hearts, be a cardiologist. 

In all fairness, music is a crapshoot. Don't feel bad about great music getting ignored and simple music being popular. Artists come and go. So today's Drake will be replaced by someone else. Make what you love and listen to what you love.


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## NoamL (Jul 6, 2018)

Zhao Shen said:


> I'm going to step in here because you guys are being unfair to hip-hop.



Which always happens on this forum. I wish people would appreciate that behind the celebrity there are solid musical people producing some nice tracks. The name act is just a performer - and a clotheshorse for fashion brands. That's not very different from most of pop music.


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## novicecomposer (Jul 6, 2018)

Alex Niedt said:


> you're generally not big on pop music


Well, I'm changing my direction completely and am looking to write music that the mass audience actually likes and that finally pays my bill! I'm studying Drake now. Yes, I just realized that music bringing money doesn't have to touch heart and I don't plan to become a cardiologist. We're in a different world than Beethoven's and music that's ignored by the majority can't be called music.


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## BlackDorito (Jul 6, 2018)

There are good production values in many hip-hop / rap tunes ... and a lot of cleverness in the lyrics, both in terms of rhythmic integration with the beat and rhyming. People use different styles of music for different purposes ... I spend a lot of time with modern classical, but when I go for a run I strap on my MP3 player which is full of beat-based tunes. They say that people "imprint" the pop music of their teen years, and I indeed listen to that music, but I listen to hip-hop as well. I don't bother comparing it to Rachmaninoff or Mason Bates. I will say that many rap tunes have very juvenile lyrics which I find irritating. But if some 13-year-old has a positive response to the same tune, that is equally valid. Jay-Z doesn't care if I listen to the music he produced, neither did Milton Babbitt.


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## Rodney Money (Jul 6, 2018)

Zhao Shen said:


> I'm going to step in here because you guys are being unfair to hip-hop. Which is understandable - I'm not a huge fan of the genre either. But I at least recognize its merits. Most of us appreciate solid _music_, whereas most of the time hip-hop is more about the creativity of the lyrics. 90% of rap with those booming 808s sounds more or less the same - it's the lyrics that add interest, and they are no easy feat. And then there are those rare rap songs that are actually extremely well constructed and interesting all the way through.
> 
> But yeah, the generalization that all music that's popular is due to appealing to 13 year olds is pretty naive. Not to mention it's a bit arrogant to assume your musical taste is somehow more valid than millions of others, including many who have comparably advanced musical training.


My words were paraphrasing Frank Zappa, and his many interviews about the decline of the music business.


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## Øivind (Jul 6, 2018)

Hip-Hop has a huge history with lots of social, political and cultural backgrounds, as well as many problems and issues. The roots and early hip-hop are very interesting and expressive, breakdancing, block parties, beatboxing, rap, DJing etc. Sadly little remain of actual Hip-Hop in today's "most played/most popular" playlists, IMO. 

Studios can often offer already written tracks to pop celebs, then just push marketing behind them. With all that marketing knowledge and power they can pretty much predict or even dictate what people are going to like.

Only advice i have is, if you don't already have some good connections, spend some time getting a foot in the door somewhere. I would guess at first you probably will start out co-producing/co-writing music for someone else. Who knows, maybe you will be the next Max Martin  

Hell here in Norway it is becoming a huge thing to make themes for Russ. Russ are ~highschool pupils in their final spring semester and they become Russ for approx 2 weeks where they celebrate. It's a kind of graduation celebration. They don special outfits and usually trick out a van and play music really loud + there is often an abundance of alcohol involved. It's the most annoying time of the year by far. So back to the russ themes, each theme is made for Russ from a specific school, there is voting on what theme is the best etc etc. I am guessing it is not a lot of money in this right now, but it's just started being a big thing. Next year people will approach the ones that made the best tacks, or new blood will come in, they will get more listens on Spotify/Youtube and on parties, year after that it will be even more popular, suddenly you just might get noticed big time.


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## aaronventure (Jul 6, 2018)

novicecomposer said:


> Well, I'm changing my direction completely and am looking to write music that the mass audience actually likes and that finally pays my bill! I'm studying Drake now. Yes, I just realized that music bringing money doesn't have to touch heart and I don't plan to become a cardiologist. We're in a different world than Beethoven's and music that's ignored by the majority can't be called music.



If that's the way you wanna go, I'd suggest studying Adele and Lady Gaga as well.

Long story short, there's A LOT of weight in the vocal performance. Not just notes, not just words, but the performance itself. That's your number one priority. Right after is the melody (because you can write a simple melody and a fantastic vocal performance will make it sound out of this world), and the lyrics come last (every summer there's a new hit in a foreign language raking in billions of plays. 90% of the listeners don't understand the words. But these songs nail the first two points, especially the first one.)

If you don't believe me, just listen to covers of hits. Yes, sometimes you'll find a cover that's better than the original. But most of the time, they're not even close. Why is that so, if the cover artist sings all the same words and all the same notes?


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## MartinH. (Jul 7, 2018)

novicecomposer said:


> Well, I'm changing my direction completely and am looking to write music that the mass audience actually likes and that finally pays my bill! I'm studying Drake now. Yes, I just realized that music bringing money doesn't have to touch heart and I don't plan to become a cardiologist. We're in a different world than Beethoven's and music that's ignored by the majority can't be called music.



If you want to write pop music then this youtube channel might interest you:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLtD67ljlaeXQMV4sb-YzNA


Also do a bit of research on how spotify works, as far as I know the key ingredient for getting many plays is being on curated playlists, for which you can straight up pay in many cases, although this isn't officially allowed and they've started to crack down on that. There are no easy get-rich-tickets in any creative field. You'll still be playing a game, just a very different one. Just because you "sell your soul" doesn't guarantuee it pays off financially. I don't wanna talk you out of it, if you think it could be a fun challenge then try it! Just keep in mind you need to worry about a lot of things other than making music too, like marketing etc..


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## Polkasound (Jul 7, 2018)

Popular music is constantly evolving, so every generation grows up associating with something different. I can't relate to Drake's music, just like my parents couldn't relate to Nirvana's music, just like their parents couldn't relate to Elvis' music, just like their parents couldn't relate to Count Basie's music.

Yet, as much as I can't relate to Drake's music (nor Kendrick Lamar's, whom I'll mention since he was brought up in a similar thread a couple months ago) I can hear very, very creative elements in their songs. Their songs don't speak to me the least little bit, but I still hear all of the creative elements in them, and I'm wise enough to know that whenever someone my age claims, "Hell, anybody can write music like that," .... no. No they can't.


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## CGR (Jul 7, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> Popular music is constantly evolving, so every generation grows up associating with something different. I can't relate to Drake's music, just like my parents couldn't relate to Nirvana's music, just like their parents couldn't relate to Elvis' music, just like their parents couldn't relate to Count Basie's music.
> 
> Yet, as much as I can't relate to Drake's music (nor Kendrick Lamar's, whom I'll mention since he was brought up in a similar thread a couple months ago) I can hear very, very creative elements in their songs. Their songs don't speak to me the least little bit, but I still hear all of the creative elements in them, and I'm wise enough to know that whenever someone my age claims, "Hell, anybody can write music like that," .... no. No they can't.


Great summary!


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## Divico (Jul 7, 2018)

I dont get that either. Popular music is a myth to me.
Music has not to be complicated to be good. Sometimes complicated or technical can be a bad thing to me. I do not like many guitar solo since it happens to often that they are more like showing of technic.
To me a good rememberable melody was always key. 
Something that digs into your brain and doesnt let you go. Since the last year this seems to have changed. Another thing to keep in mind is that listening behavior seems to have changed. Music seems to have become more and more a background noise to a lot of people and not something you spend your whole attention on.


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## Polkasound (Jul 7, 2018)

Divico said:


> Music seems to have become more and more a background noise to a lot of people and not something you spend your whole attention on.



I think that is how every generation comes to feel about newer music as they grow older. But play that "background noise" for a group of teenagers, and within seconds they'll all be repeating the lyrics. Popular music is about making a connection with the current generation of young people. A lot of it is done with imagery as Dear Villian pointed out above, but music producers have always been paid the big bucks to pair the words young people want to hear with the sounds, beats, and melodies in which they want to hear them.

There is a reason why I defend today's popular music, even the forms I absolutely can't relate to:

I was a teen who connected with Top 40 music in the 80's and early 90's. I was buying cassette tapes by bands like Quiet Riot, Night Ranger, Yes, and Wilson Phillips, and playing the heck out of them. [I was also the kid who was always getting his Sony Walkman confiscated by the school principal, so when I see teens walking around with earbuds seemingly surgically implanted in their ears, I totally understand.] I'm aware that the Top 40 music of my generation sounded nothing like the Top 40 music of my parents' generation, so it makes sense to me that the popular music of today can sound so different from the music I grew up appreciating.

About five years ago there was a song that hit the Top 40 charts that was the stupidest, goofiest song I'd ever heard with lyrics that were excruciatingly lame. My college-age niece, however, felt differently.

"I like it," she said.

"But _why_ do you like it?" I inquired.

She paused for a second, smiled and said, "I don't know... I just like it."


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## Michel Simons (Jul 7, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> About five years ago there was a song that hit the Top 40 charts that was the stupidest, goofiest song I'd ever heard with lyrics that were excruciatingly lame. My college-age niece, however, felt differently.
> 
> "I like it," she said.
> 
> ...



And in the end that is all that counts.


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## Living Fossil (Jul 7, 2018)

Every style of music has its microcosm.

Usually, we dive into the microcosm of styles that we like but ignore the microcosm of styles that we don't like.

In my opinion, if we are confronted with successful music that we don't like, it can be an extremely rewarding thing to search for the hidden qualities. Usually there are interesting aspects to find.


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## robgb (Jul 7, 2018)

novicecomposer said:


> Easy music.


People like "easy." It's the same reason that James Patterson—a mediocre writer at best—is the biggest selling author of all time.


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## NoamL (Jul 7, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> Every style of music has its microcosm.
> 
> Usually, we dive into the microcosm of styles that we like but ignore the microcosm of styles that we don't like.
> 
> In my opinion, if we are confronted with successful music that we don't like, it can be an extremely rewarding thing to search for the hidden qualities. Usually there are interesting aspects to find.



Wish I could like this twice


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## chillbot (Jul 7, 2018)

NoamL said:


> Wish I could like this twice


I wasn't going to give it a "like" but I'll like it for you so you can say you liked it twice. Oh and you owe me a "like".


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## givemenoughrope (Jul 7, 2018)

Drake, Jay-Z, Beyonce, Kanye (the supposed producer genius)...never heard anything that was worth listening to. Not even once. 
Azealia Banks is fantastic though. Considering the genres she presides in, her phrasing and sense of melody just knocks me out. And I honestly don't know why. Just love it.


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## C M Dess (Jul 7, 2018)

Well I made a word called corruptionaires to describe the enigmas of today.

Pay to play. I can't believe anyone would think otherwise. Yes it's crap and sold to youth and youth don't even listen to it and companies don't care at all about quality. It's a sort of immersion of branding thing. It's more about his clothes just like all the other posers. Or worse.

To understand drake is to understand Adidas and mickey dees (mcdonalds). The artists of today are a concoction of empty vortices for brands. The brands/cartels form the vortices and stick whatever the fuck they want inside it and dispose of it whenever they want too. They love to appeal to those susceptible to manipulation at the broadest levels. If someone does actually make a great song again someday how will you ever hear it buried under the millions spent by lowlifes. It won't get selected by the techies algo's, they are about as useful on music as they are on politics.

Money wins again. Surprise surprise. Yuck.


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## nordicguy (Jul 7, 2018)

Sounds like conspiracy theory...

Living Fossil comment’ve got it all for me.
“...In my opinion, if we are confronted with successful music that we don't like, it can be an extremely rewarding thing to search for the hidden qualities. Usually there are interesting aspects to find.”
There’s many things I don’t like but find pretty much interesting/inspiring.
Not easy to get out of ourself...


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## gsilbers (Jul 7, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> Every style of music has its microcosm.
> 
> Usually, we dive into the microcosm of styles that we like but ignore the microcosm of styles that we don't like.
> 
> In my opinion, if we are confronted with successful music that we don't like, it can be an extremely rewarding thing to search for the hidden qualities. Usually there are interesting aspects to find.




very true. every generation does its music thing. jazz wasnt regarded that well when it came out. People just figure out ways to be creative and mix things around. 
Hiphop has been clever in the music in different ways we are used to. mainly due to prodcution, editing samples and using daw specific tecniques to create odd rithmic beats. with that said, i dont like drake. i like other hiphop artists and dont like that mumble rap either, but they came out with using tripplets in rap music which wasnt a thing until recently. 

but for all music of course. im going to go on a limb and say that when those spicc string patterns came out was around the same time trance music was around which used a lot of those trancegate style synths. copying that pattern into orchestra music so it resonates with the young audience is now a stable for film scores. maybe it hans with blalck hawk down or one those remote control guys back in the day. so any stule can give rise to mixing specific things. like how to keep interest in those loop base music is now commen in trailer music.


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## C M Dess (Jul 7, 2018)

No. It's called buying access. Here's an example:
https://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=123898&page=1
https://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/top-403.htm
http://getinmedia.com/careers/independent-radio-promoter


You can look around and find many examples and some documentaries on YT about it.

They're called "indie promoters". Yeah...the people you hear over and over are real struggling Indies. lol

Businesses that do bad things get caught and just find another way to get it accomplished.

The worst part is the money gets sucked out of artists pockets too (360 recoup deals/hollywood accounting, deal with devil)....Motherfuckers can't lose!

In fact, Kanye even ranted about it in that tirade (programming), remember that?? 

When is the last time you saw a real indie on the top of the iTunes Charts? The millions of songs out there and only the same faces over and over on all the outlets.

It's the composers duty to recognize patterns. .... youz guyz....come on now. Stop being silly billies...

My mother works for radio stations over 30 years. Announcer/Programmer/Station Operator. It crushed my childhood with their shitty pay for the announcers. Announcers have to sign payola contracts precisely because it is the program directors responsibility to program the songs for the labels per the rotation specification. So they cannot have announcers taking money as well. That is why they try to get indie bands to use college radio because there's some play. Or at least used to be.

But when you have a business that doesn't even make money off music sales anymore one can only expect total insanity.

riggy rigz a lot


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## StephenForsyth (Jul 7, 2018)

These threads keep coming up man I don't get it. 

Y'all supposed to have this by now 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind


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## Desire Inspires (Jul 7, 2018)

Ooooh, I got it.

Drake is special because he is Canadian!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_(musician)


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## MatFluor (Jul 7, 2018)

I can agree with most what was said.

I grew up in the 90s (born 85) and with that music at that time. Early techno/trance and grunge/rock/metal. It touched my heart back then - stories of freedom, rebellion and critique of established systems. That was the time, fall of the Berlin Wall, welcoming east Germany back to the Western world, end of the cold war - an era of possibilities.

Nowadays, you have terrorism, wars, uncertainty of income and jobs. See how lyrics and songwriting changed alone from Vietnam war to end of cold war in the same genre! From protest songs it went to love and compassion.
What's in nowadays? The same teenagers (key market group) always want. Freedom, rebellion...but how is it voiced?

-> Mötley Crüe "Smoking in the boys room"
-> Scorpions "Wind of change"
-> DJ Bobo "Freedom"
-> Drake "Nice for what"

Other things that bother teens are relationships and more

You find these elements in today's lyrics as well - differently voices depending on genre. We live in uncertain times and uncertain conditions. The future is less bright then it was twenty or more years ago. The pop music has the same complexity as always. There are always very capable people behind it producing and composing.
A nice example is (more for the European guys) Dieter Bohlen. I don't know how Modern Talking got listeners, but they did. He's one of the biggest producers in middle Europe - with pop. Is it complex? No. Is it good in my opinion? No. Does it make money? Yes. Is there compositional thought behind it? Yes.
My uncle was a German schlager composer/producer. For what in my opinion was crap music, he still had hours in the studio fine-tuning a track.

Simplicity in harmonic language or instrumentation doesn't mean it's bad or made without thought or by musically illiterates. It crafted for that. It's often made by very capable people. Does it touch your heart and soul? Halloween and Gamma Ray (and Manowar - shame on me I know) did that for me back then, and do still to some degree. Drake or Nicki Minaj won't. But they touch the hearts and souls of those who are in that age we were back then. How did "wind of change" become a number one hit? How does a track like "Nice for what" even scratch the charts at all? Same reason. They speak to a large target audience with a message that fits into the current time and feeling of this audience.

Sorry for the wall of text here, but it's an interesting topic


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## storyteller (Jul 8, 2018)

#33 posts in and I’ve decided...

Challenge accepted. I’ll report back when my will-be-nominated-for-an-award hip-hop song is complete. Tonight, the music was composed. Hopefully tomorrow I’ll knock out lyrics and vocals.

Note: This is so backwards from how I ever write music...  but I made an exception because I felt like I wanted to conquer the world today and have a little bit of fun trying. 

*Update 1:* Recorded most of the track sans vocals. Feeling pretty confident with the solid start. Catchy beat. (7/7/18)

*Update 2*: Spent a full day working on lyrics, finishing them, recording vocals, harmonies, stacks, and a few additional instruments. Also did a good bit of comping. A sure hit is on our hands... (7/8/18)

*Update 3: *Things took an interesting turn. In trying to produce this hip-hop song, one road diverged into two. I think I now have 2 separate songs... but keeping it classy with one beat like Timbaland used to do I suppose. Not sure if I will have an underground hip-hop song, or something more pop-like when it is done... maybe both. Maybe a combination. Brace yourselves... They are both catchy as heck. (7/9/18)

*Update 4:* Need to get another couple of vocalists for more BG vox and such. Will start mixing tomorrow... probably. So it is gonna be a few days before I get the remainder of the vocals. Attention has been diverted to another new hip-hop track started tonight. Gotta have an EP, right? (7/10/18)

*Update 5: *Well...who knows at this point how this is going to go. I like both songs but I might just save the updates until I finish mixing this latest song. Mission: Conquer the World almost complete. (7/11/18)

*Update 6: *So much good stuff is unexpectedly happening with these tracks. Track #2 now has all recording complete. I still need to record a few BG vox for the first track... And now I have visions of shooting a music video for this second song as soon as the mix is finished. Might want to showcase it that way first rather than just an audio track. I guess I'm fully embracing this challenge. Time and logistics will tell... (7/14/18)

*Update 7: *A week has come and gone since the last update and a lot has been done, but it is still not ready. Again, it is tall order to unseat Drake. Ha! Anyway, I have 27 separate vocal tracks to tune for the second one (YEESH!)... and yes, they need tuned for this particular track. So that is on the list, then a redo on the bass track and then mixdown. Whoah. Didn't realize the size of work compared to pop/rock/country tracks. Still gonna rock when it is done though! Also... started a third track for the EP.  (7/20/18)

*Update 8: *The first mix was completed 8/1 after two full mix days. Not my fastest mix by any means, but perhaps one of the most difficult I have done. I will revisit the mix over the next several days to fine-tune it. Oh! Also, a lyric video & music video are now in the works for its premiere. Cover art is complete too. And, a fourth song is in the works... (8/2/18)

*Update 9: *The first mix is done! It was the first song written, produced, and mixed for this challenge. It was the second song recorded. Any feedback would be appreciated. Please like if you enjoy the song. (8/8/18)


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## Polkasound (Jul 8, 2018)

michelsimons said:


> And in the end that is all that counts.



Exactly. When my niece told me she liked the song, it reinforced the fact that I'm not expected to appreciate everything topping the charts today, because it's not created for me; it's created for the generation after me.

I have friends in my age range 40's-50's who have already turned into their dads when it comes to music. It's embarassing to listen to them complain about today's pop music and how their kids can stand listening to such "awful noise." What my grumpy friends don't understand is that if the music were as awful as they claim, no one would be listening to it.


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## C M Dess (Jul 8, 2018)

LOL....still dreaming up a theory of a mind.

My stage name is DJ Payola. I got the hits yo!
https://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/26/business/radio-payoffs-are-described-as-sony-settles.html

"Sony BMG and the other record labels present the public with a skewed picture of the country's 'best' and 'most popular' recorded music."

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/sony-ponies-up-for-payola-94599/

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2005/07/25/payola-shocker-j-lo-hits-others-were-bought-by-sony.html

Now in 2018 payola transforms into other stuff like botnets or paying agencies for fake plays (OR WORSE). Why the streaming world is hard to monetize, what's a real stream and what's an artificial stream. But oh look the same people making all the money before are making it now too. How nice for them.
https://djbooth.net/features/2017-01-10-master-p-soundcloud-numbers

https://noisey.vice.com/en_uk/artic...potify-buying-streams-cl1ckba1t-digital-music

So you have 1 million dollars you put into advertising. But the advertising has sub categories for payola to supplement market exposure/saturation. It's like having a slot machine with slightly better odds. But it gets even murkier SO much more. The people here aren't discussing the city scene and how the rules of the game change completely. And you have all the lawyers working hard to weave illegitimate practices into contracts, lobbying, to take what was once illegal and make it ok with the right proxy terminology. When in Rome. Oh that money moves so fast, did you see it go out your pocket? 

Stuff they've been doing for a hundred years but that's all changed now. They promised after all, they'd stop being naughty naughty mafia. They promised they won't do those fake spins now, instead they honorably commit to design better corruption so they don't get caught, cause the people that own them are tired of damage control. Maybe they'll have a president come in who understands the plight of the bully and will introduce some fat deregulation.

Mankind stinks. The fact the mankind is so stinky is exactly why people become artists. Those crazy artist types oh my...shame on those crazies trying to fix the lies and damage done by the thieves or at least add pretty colors to the pain.

Could you imagine a world where creatives are paid about the same, so that the art must speak for itself to let the people decide what is most appealing without being saturated with artificial choices.

So the question becomes, how MUCH of the success these days is from the quality verses buying power of exposure (and all the murky sub categories of that). It's probably like 1 to 1,000,000,000. Maybe it's better to listen to his song Mob Ties to understand the math a bit more.

And one more!
Why do they need all these labels in 2018 if it's the music that sells itself. His company is a subsidiary of Warner Bros...oh...ok. Yeah, it's the music....sure. If he put it up on iTunes without all that, it would never emerge to see the light of a single click other than his mother.

Anyways, here's kanye directly saying they "set that song up" regarding drake.


They should have left some crumbs for the many breads of artists in this business but they didn't. There's no legitimacy to viral videos either because no popular artists emerge without a huge financial services platform first. There won't be more MJ's or the like unless they wanna TRY to buy one but there'll be plenty of bubblegum acts. Then when they get a little older they become sex/urban let's smoke all day that'll fix the world. I don't endorse anyone mentioned but it's just more proof for the truthful side of things.

#DruggedCulture


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## reddognoyz (Jul 8, 2018)

[QUOTE="novicecomposer, post Easy music. Can some of you guys write something like that and put it on the top?[/QUOTE]

I donno bro.... easy? Ain't nothing easy about making hit music. deceptively simple maybe, but it ain't easy.


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## novicecomposer (Jul 9, 2018)

reddognoyz said:


> I donno bro.... easy? Ain't nothing easy about making hit music. deceptively simple maybe, but it ain't easy.


Hey dude, just trying to challenge you guys. Yeah, "simple" could be the right word.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jul 9, 2018)

Zhao Shen said:


> I'm going to step in here because you guys are being unfair to hip-hop. Which is understandable - I'm not a huge fan of the genre either. But I at least recognize its merits. Most of us appreciate solid _music_, whereas most of the time hip-hop is more about the creativity of the lyrics. 90% of rap with those booming 808s sounds more or less the same - it's the lyrics that add interest, and they are no easy feat. And then there are those rare rap songs that are actually extremely well constructed and interesting all the way through.
> 
> But yeah, the generalization that all music that's popular is due to appealing to 13 year olds is pretty naive. Not to mention it's a bit arrogant to assume your musical taste is somehow more valid than millions of others, including many who have comparably advanced musical training.



I on the other hand find these types of opinions superfluous and kinda doubt their sincerity. Why would one need to "recognize merits" of something one genuinely doesn't like? Life is short. Hip-Hop sucks. Obviously it sucks musically, but also lyrically, I find most of it obnoxious or forgettable.

Certainly, I assume that my musical taste is more valid than that of millions of others - why not? Certainly it's more valid _for me_ and my perception of the musical ecosystem and general world. I don't see what other category would matter. What's wrong with that?


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## novicecomposer (Jul 9, 2018)

aaronventure said:


> Long story short, there's A LOT of weight in the vocal performance.



That's what I have realized! I could be a hip pop composer and producer but no vocal skills here. Perhaps I should start looking to work with a talented black guy for vocal? Not a racial comment but it's rather a compliment for them. Have you guys seen any virtual instruments for hip hop vocal to begin with?



MartinH. said:


> If you want to write pop music then this youtube channel might interest you:
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLtD67ljlaeXQMV4sb-YzNA
> 
> 
> Also do a bit of research on how spotify works, as far as I know the key ingredient for getting many plays is being on curated playlists, for which you can straight up pay in many cases, although this isn't officially allowed and they've started to crack down on that. There are no easy get-rich-tickets in any creative field. You'll still be playing a game, just a very different one. Just because you "sell your soul" doesn't guarantuee it pays off financially. I don't wanna talk you out of it, if you think it could be a fun challenge then try it! Just keep in mind you need to worry about a lot of things other than making music too, like marketing etc..



Thank you sir! That looks like a good start. After having been digging Beethoven scores (all his symphonies no.1-no.9) for the last many years this will be refreshing!


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## Red (Jul 9, 2018)

novicecomposer said:


> Easy music.



Really? Cause from a composer's stand point, Drake's music is quite intricate and features interesting instrumentations.

I think the two stand outs of this album are "God's Plan", and "Nice for What". Possibly "That's how you feel" for the sample brilliance.

If you're trying to write popular music, yet don't find the genius behind these songs produced and written by amazing artists,
then I don't know what you're trying to pick up.

You could criticize that he doesn't write his own songs and his lyrics are by other rappers, but the songs as the final product are great.

And really, if you're young, I don't know how you can not get excited by fat bass and 808s.

Forget the lyrics if you think it's dumb.
But get hammered or stoned and dance with your bae to it. That's what it was made for.
As much as I love Beethoven and cry to his Grosse Fuge on a monthly basis, it's hard to do the above with his music.

"I know you wanna
Vacay to a place where you could
Take pictures, post on Insta
Your friends say they miss ya
But they don't really miss ya"

This is just more relatable than the violin romance no 2, more pure and heartbreaking it may be.

Sorry if I seem a little too crass with my opinions but I think this album is great.


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## aaronventure (Jul 9, 2018)

novicecomposer said:


> That's what I have realized! I could be a hip pop composer and producer but no vocal skills here. Perhaps I should start looking to work with a talented black guy for vocal? Not a racial comment but it's rather a compliment for them. Have you guys seen any virtual instruments for hip hop vocal to begin with?



If you want a voice to carry your songs, stay away from virtual instruments for anything other than placeholder backing vocals. 

Anyone talented will work. You can find no shortage of talented people posting covers on YouTube, it just takes time and luck finding them. There's plethora of styles so you can choose whoever you like the most and try your luck at contacting them. 

If you want to singlehandedly craft a commercially successful solo career writing and performing your own songs but don't plan on singing, learn _the shit_ out of an instrument, write for it and then record yourself performing. Then be smart about branding and marketing yourself. Take a look at some popular solo artists today, what they're doing, in which way are they present online and if you like some of them, take note of how they make you feel. Then learn from all that. 

Two factors are at play here and the second one is only slightly less important (some might argue that it's even more important):

1. Play well and write good/interesting music
2. Look good doing it


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## Polkasound (Jul 9, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Why would one need to "recognize merits" of something one genuinely doesn't like?



Picture this scenario: Your daughter spent the entire afternoon baking a homemade, three-layer strawberry cake. You, however, absolutely detest strawberries. Would you tell her the cake sucks, or would you tell her it looks beautiful? Both opinions are 100% valid, but recognizing and acknowledging the merits of something you don't like is a quality that denotes maturity.


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## robgb (Jul 9, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> I have friends in my age range 40's-50's who have already turned into their dads when it comes to music. It's embarassing to listen to them complain about today's pop music and how their kids can stand listening to such "awful noise."


When my kids were growing up, I LOVED the music they were listening to: Nirvana, Soundgarden, Sonic Youth...


Polkasound said:


> What my grumpy friends don't understand is that if the music were as awful as they claim, no one would be listening to it.


My entire life, most of the "popular" music was complete shit. There were major exceptions, yes, but just check out the Top 40 from when you were a teenager. Mostly shit. Just like today. Nothing has changed. And a lot of people listening to it boils down to two things 1) it's what's being pushed on us; and 2) mediocrity tends to satisfy the needs of a wider range of listeners.


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## Polkasound (Jul 9, 2018)

robgb said:


> ...just check out the Top 40 from when you were a teenager. Mostly shit.



I respect that opinion, but I was completely in sync with the music of my teenage years. I listened to Top 40 radio all the time. I knew all the lyrics to all the songs. I genuinely liked it.



robgb said:


> And a lot of people listening to it boils down to two things 1) it's what's being pushed on us; and 2) mediocrity tends to satisfy the needs of a wider range of listeners.



Or 3) Those people genuinely like it, because to them, it's great music. There's nothing mediocre about music that stirs the soul.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jul 9, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> Picture this scenario: Your daughter spent the entire afternoon baking a homemade, three-layer strawberry cake. You, however, absolutely detest strawberries. Would you tell her the cake sucks, or would you tell her it looks beautiful? Both opinions are 100% valid, but recognizing and acknowledging the merits of something you don't like is a quality that denotes maturity.



Well jeez. My daughter is a different thing, but I'm sure Drake can handle himself and my dislike of Hip-Hop. I don't think it's important for either of us.


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## robgb (Jul 9, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> Or 3) Those people genuinely like it, because to them, it's great music. There's nothing mediocre about music that stirs the soul.


Of course not. I'm talking about music that mostly doesn't. Music that is mostly background noise to life. I remember, as a teenager (and beyond), we used to sit around and listen to the likes The Beatles and Joni Mitchell and Peter Gabriel without saying a word. Just listening. Allowing our souls to absorb what was being offered. How often do you think that happens with Drake?


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## Polkasound (Jul 9, 2018)

When you said _"Why would one need to 'recognize merits' of something one genuinely doesn't like? Life is short."_ it sounded to me like blanket statement, and not one that was applying specifically to Drake, so I apologize if I misinterpreted you there.

Being able to recognize the merits in something you don't like doesn't need to be restricted to family, though. I think it's a reputable quality that one can apply universally throughout life which helps to nurture open-mindedness.


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## Polkasound (Jul 9, 2018)

robgb said:


> How often do you think that happens with Drake?



To be perfectly honest, every day. The music has changed, but the teenager's attraction to and absorption of music that stirs their soul has not changed going all the way back to the jazz clubs of the 1920's and beyond. It's always been there for every generation, driving parents crazy, just as it is here now and doing the same.

I do have opinions about some aspects of today's popular music, but, because I am no longer a teenager, I feel I am wholly unqualified to say what's background noise and what isn't. Only they can make that determination. If I dislike a song that amasses 150+ million plays on YouTube, it's obvious to me that there's nothing wrong with the song; I'm just too old for it.


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## Kyle Preston (Jul 9, 2018)

The initial question was why he has so many listeners on Spotify. As @C M Dess pointed out, the reason he's so prevalent on the platform is because he payed for it. Has little to do with the merits of hip hop as a genre or his talent as an artist. 

From the article: 



> Drake paid Spotify to exclusively feature his face on its homepage, Spotify will pay Drake huge royalties, and everyone else will be worse for it.




People eat the food that's available. A few of them seek out what they like, but most just eat what's easy to obtain. This is not new. At all. It's capitalism. And above a certain threshold, it doesn't give a flying fuck how good or bad your music is perceived. That is why his streaming numbers are so high. He's the first thing people see when they walk in the grocery store and the last thing when they leave. 

The Gorillaz are capitalizing on the exact same tactic right now with their new album.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 9, 2018)

@Kyle Preston well said. Drake is, well, corporately manufactured garbage. The record companies manufacture and invest in their own "creations", which is pretty much all the crap we are hearing on mainstream pop radio and Billboard charts. Basically, it's shoved down the general public's throats until they make a bazillion dollars as a direct result of mass marketing (has nothing to do with talent). And then....on to the next "product" when the sales start to decline. They are all expendable "artists". 

Sorry if I offended anyone, but there is a big difference between good and band Hip Hop, Rap and R&B. IMO, Drake, Nicki Minaj, Jay Z are examples of inflated hype with the sole purpose of capitalism.


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## robgb (Jul 9, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Drake is, well, corporately manufactured garbage.


And herein lies the problem with much of entertainment today. Bestselling books tend to be the same authors over and over, towing the corporate line, telling the same stories. Movies are all about men in spandex saving the world. And music isn't necessarily bad, it's just, well, ho-hum. All gloss, no substance.


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## Calazzus (Jul 9, 2018)

I no longer have any respect for music charting and popularity in America. I know for a fact that you can pay to make anyone famous regardless of talent level or lack thereof. To have one single played across the United States with heavy rotation cost at least $30,000 on the low end. Top 40 music, who's popular has nothing to do with talent and everything to do with money being paid. I used to be so naive and thought that the best music was being chosen to play on the radio and then all of a sudden an emergence of this cookie cutter Mumble rap showed up so I investigated. How can you consider anything top 40 music chart Worthy when everything that's charting is being paid for?


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## Polkasound (Jul 9, 2018)

There's always been a lot of image and marketing into making a pop idol. Some of the most popular singers through the decades had the look, but only half the talent you'd expect. So there's no question that image sells, but I will add that just because they weren't the most talented doesn't mean their heavily-commercialized music was lacking anything it was supposed to have.

The whole product is manufactured, yes, but to certain specifications: the music and words need to be what young people want to hear and feel, and the image needs to be what they want to see.

You can't force someone to connect with a song. That connection is made solely by the listener. You can influence what they choose to connect with by selective marketing, but you can't just put anything out there, throw a million dollars at it, buy Spotify plays, and expect it to become a hit -- if the song doesn't have a sound and message that your target audience can relate to, it won't fly. Sometimes the producers who make the big bucks fail, and the artist they've branded and marketed turns out to be a complete flop. Then it's back to the drawing board with either a new artist or a rebranding and remarketing of the existing one.

Taylor Swift, for example, is a phenomenally talented songwriter. She's not the best singer, but her image is so marketable that they produced her music to commercial perfection and made her an icon. Britney Spears was the same exact deal in the 90's, as was Debbie Gibson in the 80's. Regardless, their corporately-manufactured music struck a nerve with their respective generations because it was created for those generations. Likewise, Drake's music is created for the current generation. It strikes a nerve with young people that few of us can understand simply because we are a generation or more removed.

The way I see it, I have a choice. I can become my parents and tell my kids to turn that %@&^! noise off, or I can rely on my own experience as a teenager to understand that much of today's music is probably _expected_ to be of no value to my generation. I'm sticking with choice #2, because I don't plan on turning into my parents for at least another 25 years.

At 48, I have no interest in Drake's music whatsoever, but I can't say I'd feel the same if I were 30+ years younger growing up in society today, and my goals, values, morals, and life experiences were vastly different from what they are now. It's just one of those things I'll never know.


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## thevisi0nary (Jul 9, 2018)

I am continually impressed by (most) members of this forum and how open minded / friendly / helpful they are. Cool to see a constructive discussion here instead of bashing music, even if it isn't what a lot of us listen to.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 9, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> The whole product is manufactured, yes, but to certain specifications: the music and words need to be what young people want to hear and feel, and the image needs to be what they want to see.



Just my opinion of course, but I think this is the problem. The industry is dictating what the youth want see, not vice versa. When you and I were teens, the music industry was completely different....you must admit that  The charts contained everything from Hair Metal, to Michael Jackson, to Tina Turner. I'm not seeing this anymore.


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## robgb (Jul 9, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> There's always been a lot of image and marketing into making a pop idol. Some of the most popular singers through the decades had the look, but only half the talent you'd expect. So there's no question that image sells, but I will add that just because they weren't the most talented doesn't mean their heavily-commercialized music was lacking anything it was supposed to have.


Sure, the artist's image was manufactured, but the music, for the serious artists at least, was not. I think one of the problems today is that we can perfect a performance with plugins and process the shit out of the music with very little effort, so even the worst artist sounds slick and professional. But the music just isn't there. And this isn't a rant about "these kids today" but an objective assessment of popular music. The best music being made is done by independents. People who are free to record without the interference of the men in suits.


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## robgb (Jul 9, 2018)




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## StephenForsyth (Jul 9, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> The industry is dictating what the youth want see, not vice versa.



Right, the only way to listen to new music then was to see what was on the radio / TV / label released records or go and buy it out of somebody's car boot, as opposed to now where the youth can go and listen to whatever it is they want to from any time period via the internet regardless of whether the person has a deal with a record label.

But the industry is dictating what the youth like more _now?_ The industry plays catch up these days, if you followed modern hip hop at all you'd know most of the new rappers come up outside of the label off mixtapes and the labels all run around trying to sign them after they're already hot. 

The industry isn't dictating what the youth want to see, the youth are dictating who the labels sign.


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## Polkasound (Jul 9, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> The industry is dictating what the youth want see, not vice versa.



I actually don't believe that's true. I believe that there are perceptive people in the music industry who have their finger on the pulse of the youth. They know what's selling and what isn't, what's hot and what's not. They know when and how to capitalize on trending themes, such as the love-yourself-as-you-are theme, the anti-bullying theme, the I'm-a-strong-girl theme, etc. They know when and how far to push the envelope of sexual innuendo. They study pop music, social media, and teen culture, and they use what they learn to try to manufacture the next big money maker.




Wolfie2112 said:


> When you and I were teens, the music industry was completely different....you must admit that



I wish I could, but I believe the industry was very much the same back then as it is today. Top 40 was largely industry-manufactured as groups/solo artists were paired with record producers who revamped their sound to maximize their marketability. And even though we had a lot of variety in our day's Top 40, there is a lot of variety in today's Top 40 as well. If we can't hear it, it just means we're getting older, but to the younger generation, the music of Imagine Dragons, Ed Sheeran, and Kendrick Lamar is just as different as the music of Poison, Simply Red, and Herbie Hancock.




robgb said:


> The best music being made is done by independents. People who are free to record without the interference of the men in suits.



I agree with you when it comes to the high quality music of many independent artists. The industry men in suits are the ones who can take an independent artist and tweak his or her music and image in just the right way to maximize profitability, but if the suits and the big record-making machines were to suddenly disappear one day, the world would not be at a loss. The masses would all turn to independent artists, and everyone would surely find music they like.




robgb said:


> Sure, the artist's image was manufactured, but the music, for the serious artists at least, was not.



In every generation, there were some chart-reaching bands and artists who recorded the music they loved in their own way, and it just worked. Boston is one example. Jump ahead to today, and I'm sure the same holds true. We may assume Drake is merely a stamped-out product of the industry, but, what if he isn't? What if he is actually creating the music he loves with little to no influence by the men in suits?


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## Dear Villain (Jul 10, 2018)

I contacted the men in (black) suits, and asked if they would be willing to drop Drake and manufacture me in to a top 40 act to replace him. I proudly provided them my soundcloud link. Within minutes, I received an email back, with a report card checklist:

Fan base: fail (20 followers vs. Drake's 50 million)

Looks: fail (ugly middle aged guy couldn't sell a shirt to a blind nun)

Fashion sense: fail (enjoys wearing sweat pants made in sweat shops, sold at Walmart)

Public persona: fail (uses too many two syllable-plus words, makes eye contact, and would generally turn off fans that expect their artists to be thug-like)

Now, I'm offended, so I write back to the men in black, with one simple question: but what about my music? Did you enjoy it? Did it touch your soul? Did it speak to you?

Five minutes later, I got another response:

Music: fail (uses too many notes, too few effects, no lyrics, no loops, and rambles on and on for more than 3 minutes.)

So, there you have it! I'm going to use this valuable feedback from the men in black suits to overhaul my career. My 20 SoundCloud followers are in for a real treat. Subscribe now, so we can overtake Drake and show the men in black suits that they can't suppress talent. Word! Ya hear?!

Cheers,
Notorious D.A.V.E.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 10, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> I believe the industry was very much the same back then as it is today



I feel the complete opposite. Years ago, a record company would take an unsigned artists under it's wing, nurture them, take their first born until the tours and sales paid off their advance royalties, etc. These days, a big label won't even look at an artist until they've hit moderate success independently (ie; sold 10,000 albums on their own). It's nothing more than a cash grab for the big labels, as most of the leg work has already been done for them.

You aren't going to see any more Boston's, Michael Jackson's, U2's, etc because the youth (not all of course) think that guys like Drake are musical God's. And as long as that continues, the labels will keep on pumping it out in the name of $$$. Just watch the Grammy's, it's a total disgrace.


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## kitekrazy (Jul 10, 2018)

robgb said:


> Of course not. I'm talking about music that mostly doesn't. Music that is mostly background noise to life. I remember, as a teenager (and beyond), we used to sit around and listen to the likes The Beatles and Joni Mitchell and Peter Gabriel without saying a word. Just listening. *Allowing our souls to absorb what was being offered.* *How often do you think that happens with Drake?*



That really doesn't happen with today's music. As some say EDM has no feeling. Duh, it's not suppose to. Music is now being mixed for portable devices. I remember when you went to a Best Buy or Circuit City there was a room dedicated to speakers. Few people really listen to music anymore. Those of us who have musical training listen to it much differently. Sometimes I wonder if it's a curse or blessing.


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## kitekrazy (Jul 10, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> *There's always been a lot of image and marketing into making a pop idol.*



That's been going on for a long time. I remember when they use to put 45's made of wax that you cut out on the back of a cereal box.


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## Polkasound (Jul 10, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> I feel the complete opposite



My _"I believe the industry was very much the same back then as it is today"_ comment was in relation to the branding and marketing pop stars/groups. By that, I meant that labels are in business to make money and always have been. Back in the day, they signed marketable artists. Today, they do the same. The goal of making money hasn't changed, but the ways in which they find and obtain those money-making artists certainly have.




Wolfie2112 said:


> You aren't going to see any more Boston's, Michael Jackson's, U2's, etc because the youth (not all of course) think that guys like Drake are musical God's. And as long as that continues, the labels will keep on pumping it out in the name of $$$. Just watch the Grammy's, it's a total disgrace.



Michael Jackson was a god in his day, just like Drake is in his. The god-like worship of music idols by young fans has been around for generations. In that respect, there is no difference between Frank Sinatra, David Cassidy, Michael Jackson, Miley Cyrus, and Drake. Teenagers connected to those figures because they were right for their generation, and it's no different with today's pop stars. Labels have been capitalizing on that phenomenon since the early days of recording, and they always will.

--

Generally speaking, it's natural as we get older to increasingly discredit the direction pop music is traveling. As it evolves, it sounds less and less like the music we listened to, and perhaps less and less like music at all. But it's designed and created to stir the emotions of _today's_ youth. 

A ballad crooned by Perry Como or Elvis Presley isn't going to do it today. An upbeat Beatles song about holding hands isn't going to do it today. The Doors lighting fires isn't going to do it today. Madonna vogueing isn't going to do it today. Pretty much nothing we've listened to in our lifetime is going to do it today. But this is 2018; put Kendrick Lamar, Nicki Minaj, or Cardi B on stage to rap, and they instantly connect with a lot of young people. For youth who don't care for those artists, they also have artists/bands like Arianna Grande, Shawn Mendez, Ed Sheeran, Florida Georgia Line, etc. all putting out good music. I don't listen to it too often because it doesn't stir my soul, but I enjoy how musically creative it is. (There is actually a lot of similarity between some of today's pop music and the pop music I listened to in the 1980's.)


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## Musicologo (Jul 10, 2018)

All these things have been studied by musicologists for over 50 years... Just take a look at Hirsch 1969.
The processes of gatekeeping and filtering are key in all of these processes.

https://www.psc.isr.umich.edu/dis/infoserv/isrpub/pdf/Structure_2913_.PDF

And they keep basically being the same even 50 years later and a few revolutions in between. Reading Tschmuck "creativity and innovation in the music industry" is fundamental.

http://hugoribeiro.com.br/biblioteca-digital/Tschmuck-Creativity_Innovation_Music_Industry.pdf

Most musicians in this forum seem to operate under the umbrella of functional music as a job/business. The processes involved are the creation of "tracks" to be sold as commodities. This is an old tradition coming from musical theater, printed music, tin pan alley (the whole core of "popular musics"). It takes place within the context of capitalist societies and publishing industries. If one does not understand the mechanisms shaping this framework, backed up by science and data, might as well dedicate oneself to something else.

There are many different musical practices like music as art/craft or music as self expression, social criticism, healing, folk and work songs, etc.. but those operate under different schemes and mechanisms and most often than not, are incompatible with the industrial processes above mentioned. Sometimes they overlap, but for the majority of musicians and creators they do not, leaving them outside or in the fringes of the "industries"...


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## DS_Joost (Jul 16, 2018)

kitekrazy said:


> That really doesn't happen with today's music. As some say EDM has no feeling. Duh, it's not suppose to. Music is now being mixed for portable devices. I remember when you went to a Best Buy or Circuit City there was a room dedicated to speakers. Few people really listen to music anymore. Those of us who have musical training listen to it much differently. Sometimes I wonder if it's a curse or blessing.



I agree with a lot of viewpoints here but the fact that EDM hasn't got feeling is frankly bullshit. You don't even have to look far off the charts to hear that. Plus, this album is mixed extremely well. Better than most 'better' music these days. I'm not even a big EDM fan to begin with. But this is my favourite album this whole year yet. Even above all scores I've heard.



Listen tot this and tell me EDM has no feeling. Problem is that everything gets lumped into the same category. I agree about Drake. I do NOT agree that this gets lumped into the same category, or that it has no feeling at all. And for those who think EDM requires no talent, I dare you to make something like this. Try it.


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## Polkasound (Jul 16, 2018)

I think EDM (especially pop-influenced EDM as opposed to techo-influenced EDM) definitely can have feeling. Heavy metal, with it's wall of guitars, can send fans into a fist-pumping frenzy. EDM can have the same effect as heavy metal. The sound is synthesized, but it's a massive wall of sound nonetheless, and it can pulse its way right into people's emotions. Not to mention that EDM can also have melodies that are catchy and other creative elements found in other genres of music.

I set myself two goals for 2018: Record and release a polka album, and get to work creating modern pop single. The polka album is done, so now I want to tackle my biggest challenge yet, which is to write and produce a modern pop song. I don't know how well it will turn out because I'm aware of the limits of my creativity, but I'm going to spend more and more time getting in sync with today's hits to assimilate ideas and fuel my inspiration. Wish me luck!


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## kitekrazy (Jul 16, 2018)

DS_Joost said:


> I agree with a lot of viewpoints here but the fact that EDM hasn't got feeling is frankly bullshit. You don't even have to look far off the charts to hear that. Plus, this album is mixed extremely well. Better than most 'better' music these days. I'm not even a big EDM fan to begin with. But this is my favourite album this whole year yet. Even above all scores I've heard.
> 
> 
> 
> Listen tot this and tell me EDM has no feeling. Problem is that everything gets lumped into the same category. I agree about Drake. I do NOT agree that this gets lumped into the same category, or that it has no feeling at all. And for those who think EDM requires no talent, I dare you to make something like this. Try it.




I agree. Feeling and emotion are the vaguest terms when it comes to music. My favorite music is Trance. Some of the breakdowns have feeling and emotion for me. All types of music require talent.


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## storyteller (Jul 16, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> ...so now I want to tackle my biggest challenge yet, which is to write and produce a modern pop song. I don't know how well it will turn out because I'm aware of the limits of my creativity, but I'm going to spend more and more time getting in sync with today's hits to assimilate ideas and fuel my inspiration. Wish me luck!


So does this mean you are joining the hip-hop challenge with me here? Ha. My plan is to mix one of the tracks this week (I wound up with a couple tracks from this challenge. See my previous post on page #2 for updates). I had to step away from it for a few days so I could hear something else before mixing. Hopefully this week it will be mixed and posted here.


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## Polkasound (Jul 16, 2018)

storyteller said:


> So does this mean you are joining the hip-hop challenge with me here? Ha.



Well... it will be a challenge regardless, but I have a some other priorities to take care of before I can put all of my focus into this project. I'm supposed to be playing tennis from now through October, but I'm out with shoulder pain for the time being, so I may be working on this project sooner than I thought. I'm anxious to hear your tracks!


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## storyteller (Jul 16, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> Well... it will be a challenge regardless, but I have a some other priorities to take care of before I can put all of my focus into this project. I'm supposed to be playing tennis from now through October, but I'm out with shoulder pain for the time being, so I may be working on this project sooner than I thought. I'm anxious to hear your tracks!


Well thank you! It's a tall order to unseat Drake. haha. But man, I hope you get to feeling better with the shoulder pain. If you do join in, I'd be anxious to hear your take on the style too.


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## nordicguy (Jul 16, 2018)

I really enjoyed those last posts.
A welcome pause from cynicism and black or white view.


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## Polkasound (Jul 16, 2018)

storyteller said:


> I hope you get to feeling better with the shoulder pain. If you do join in, I'd be anxious to hear your take on the style too.



Thank you! I should have clarified that when I said I am going to try to create a modern pop tune, I wasn't talking about hip-hop in the style of Drake. That style of music just doesn't appeal to me. The song I do will be more pop/pop-rock/dance-pop (Selena Gomez, Maroon 5, OneRepublic, Charlie Puth, etc.)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 17, 2018)

What I see going on is a general numbing of the senses.

Everything around us is louder, noisier, brighter, faster, less varied, more simplistic, and less subtle. That may have started with music videos (gee thanks Rectec  ), but really it's everywhere you look.

My mom, who grew up before TV - her eyes go straight down a page when she reads, but only watches things like Downton Abbey on TV - literally can't follow television! Her focus includes details most people don't notice, and the picture moves on too quickly.

Of course people are still producing great music (Essa-Pekka Salonen is as great a composer as the world has known, for example, and of course lots of great musicians in every genre are very much alive), but the bucks aren't in music alone anymore - it has to be accompanied by fast-paced visuals, dancing sexpots, and in-app purchases.

And no dynamic range.

Was the music industry's rise in the second half of the last century an anomaly? I don't know, but music - like all arts - is the soul of humanity. It's been passed on from generation to generation for millennia. My hunch is that gravitas will make a comeback.


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## Polkasound (Jul 17, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Everything around us is louder, noisier, brighter, faster ... it's everywhere you look



I think a lot of it is due to studies in recent years showing how people today have such short attention spans, so entertainment media is always looking for new ways of jingling keys in front of babies. For example...

1. Just about every local news broadcast in the last 10-15 years has adopted a red & blue color scheme -- the same color as police emergency lights -- and the graphics are always flowing/flashing during the broadcast. Many news broadcasts have also added news tickers for people who can't wait five minutes to get all the top stories.







2. What I call the "indecisive cameraman" style of filming, where the camera is always zooming in and out and shaking back and forth (i.e. TMZ) seems to be pretty popular. I know it's intentional, but for crying out loud, USE A $%@& TRIPOD!

I think it's no coincidence that in sci-fi movies, future cities are often depicted like the image below. Nothing but fast-paced, brightly-lit visuals. This is where our world is slowly headed, piece by piece.






Regarding music, it's a sad fact that many in the general public valuate musical quality more with their eyes and less with their ears. Even in the polka circuit, bands who wear goofy hats and display silly antics on stage will always garner the most accolades no matter how musically-challenged they are.

The difference between a musician and a non-musician is how they receive enjoyment from a concert. A musician will be wowed by the music and the talent of a solo violinist. A non-musician, on the other hand, will either be bored or wowed depending on whether or not the solo violinist was lowered to the stage on cables attached to the rafters, landing in a circle of pyrotechnics.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 17, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> Michael Jackson was a god in his day, just like Drake is in his. The god-like worship of music idols by young fans has been around for generations. In that respect, there is no difference between Frank Sinatra, David Cassidy, Michael Jackson, Miley Cyrus, and Drake



*gets up out of studio chair raising a fist*

Sorry man, I respectfully disagree. IMHO, regarding talent, those older artists aren't even in the same galaxy as "artists" like Drake or Miley Cyrus. There's simply no comparison in that regard, nor were they intentionally manufactured by a record label. I mean really, did Drake pay his dues to earn his place? Absolutely not. Shit, Michael Jackson wrote, sang and toured for years before Thriller was even recorded; his place in music history was rightfully earned.

Anyways, carry on.....


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 17, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> I think a lot of it is due to studies in recent years showing how people today have such short attention spans



I haven't read that (because my attention span is too short), but then you'd have to wonder whether it's a loop:

||: more intense sensory bombardment -> you don't need to pay as much attention -> you lose your ability to focus, requiring -> :||


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## SyMTiK (Jul 17, 2018)

People nowadays seem to be more than ever drawn to the image of the artist, more so than the music itself. 

A lot of modern hip hop artists like Lil Pump, Tekashi 6ix9ine, XXXtentacion (R.I.P.) to name a few all found a surge in their popularity almost entirely due to their antics outside of music. They all had very loud appearances, with bright colored hair, facial tattoos, and expensive flashy outfits. They would post many videos online of them doing ridiculous (even criminal) activities, and people loved it. They would all show their friends "omg look how stupid Lil Pump is" and everyone would laugh at how ridiculous these artists are. But you cant forget, all publicity is good publicity. And thus this caused their music careers to skyrocket. Their music is mediocre and amateurish - the production is on the same level as a 14 year old with a cracked version of FL Studio, and the verses are elementary. But still people loved this raw, "dont give a fuck" attitude the music conveyed, and thats where the success comes in. Look at the punk rock take over in the 70's. The Ramones could barely play their instruments, They just turned their amps up to 11 and went wild and everyone loved it. Its that teenage angst that comes with every generation that fuels the evolution of pop music in some way or another. The teenage rebellion almost always finds a way to influence pop culture.

Now, as far as Drake, his music sits in a different tier of pop music, but I would say that his success is based off of many different factors. He used to be a child actor, so he was already in the entertainment industry. From there it probably wasnt too hard to get help creating an image for a rap career. 

He has a unique, identifiable voice. You hear him once, and you can likely identify him again. This can be a big factor in the success of an artist. Having a unique sounding voice already puts you far ahead of the competition because your voice alone brands your music, you dont need as many other gimmicks to create an identifiable sound. 

A lot of his songs have a wildcard element, that helps solidify its ability to be a hit. Wildcard elements are huge in pop music and can be essential to make a song a hit. A wildcard element can be anything, from a unique sample (Hotling Bling for example), to a memorable and unique hook. A lot of his songs tend to have this factor in some way or another. 

All in all, I dont know that its fair to compare a pop artist like Drake to someone like Beethoven. Clearly their music is serving different purposes, and are conveying a message to a far different audience. And thats the beauty of music - Music can be intricate and colorful and create beautiful textures and worlds that can draw powerful emotions from a listener. And music can also be simple and fun, and enjoyable in a different manner. I personally love all music in some way or another. I listen to modern rap artists and I even produce for one at the moment and it's great fun making high energy, "not to be taken seriously" music like this. Its awesome to watch kids go wild and rock out and have a good time to it. The music we are making is by no means meant to move an audience to tears, but it was never meant to. And I think there is something to be said about that. All music serves different purposes


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## Polkasound (Jul 17, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Sorry man, I respectfully disagree. IMHO, regarding talent, those older artists aren't even in the same galaxy as "artists" like Drake or Miley Cyrus.



If you re-read my quote, you'll see I wasn't talking about talent, who paid their dues, who was "manufactured", etc. All I said was that they are all the same in respect to how they were worshiped as idols in their day. See photos below.


























I respect your opinions regarding who you judge to more or less talented, but everyone perceives talent in their own way, and it is often defined by one's generation. To any one of those kids in the photo of Drake above, Drake is one of the best things that ever happened to music, because he says and does what they want to hear and see. Someone like Frank Sinatra would seem completely talentless to those kids, because Frank could't rap, he couldn't do a crip walk, his lyrics weren't edgy, he didn't load his vocals with pentatonic arpeggios, etc. It's all relative.


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## C M Dess (Jul 20, 2018)

It bothers me that I think they are "mixing for cell phones".

When the iPhone/Ipod first came out I was crushed because I realized that it not only used bit compression at the time but also most people would be listening on a device with inferior sound hardware capabilities (crappy speaker or crappy earbuds).

They are definitely mixing for these devices and it sucks. They are mixing for the built in speaker which is even worse than after market phones. Loud voice, Loud Drum, No Bass, Guitars sound like the phone is broken, Instruments in the background sound like buffering noises and last but not least the stupid cheap synthy kazoo whistle noise cus it cuts in the mix.

The Internet and Computers culture totally crushed the fidelity aspect, you can buy more to fix it but how many will buy anything like that these days.
- Bad Phone Speakers (Some actually sound good but they still don't sound like the real thing - a stereo).
- Some people will take the time to connect the devices to their car stereo which is nice but takes a lot of extra steps they can't be bothered to make (like buyin a fucking cable).
- Still we deal with data compression (in the video format). And now YouTube volume strangeness and coming soon they'll set the volume for everyone as standard so the advertisers get the loudest option.
- They want this gen high as a kite as well (so they can keep stealing), so more ear fuckery.

So in conclusion on every level and every scheme and Canada too (domestic content laws / ambassadorship ) drake is like the sound of vomit by conclusion of everyone including the deaf. He's a product of a fixed system which sometimes accidentally puts out good products like Michael Jackson then later attempt to destroy him because he showed how crappy their alternative products are. :D Yes drake's in only one league, the mafia league that runs and ruins earth ("Lords") and then blames it all on the slave working class.

Who controls the Lords, that's what I'd like to know. That guy blows . . .


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## Polkasound (Jul 21, 2018)

C M Dess said:


> drakes music is actually trash when listened to. It's vulgar, under produced, goofy, dumb, weak, shallow, nothing, subtractive. A good sub-category, not number 1 worthy by any measure.



The same exact thing has been said about ragtime, jazz, swing, rock-n-roll, Elvis, the Beatles, heavy metal, and all forms of today's pop music. Popular music evolves with each new generation, and in the process of evolving, is perceived as little more than vile noise to previous generations.

Society is becoming more and more secular, and young people are growing up faster and being exposed to a lot more than we ever were. Young people need music that expresses their feelings and stirs their soul, relevant to _their _world. Drake can do that exceptionally well. So does he deserve to be #1 for that? Absolutely.

Personally, I cannot tolerate Drake's music nor do I care for that edgy style of hip-hop altogether, but that's not because it's bad, as statistics clearly show. It's because at my age, I can't relate to it. And since I can't relate to it, I'm not qualified to judge it. There's a term for people who judge new music to which they can't relate. It's called "senior citizens". 

Many of the people I play music for in nursing homes grew up in the 1940s listening to big band music. To them, Chuck Berry and every form of chart-topping pop music that came after him was, and still is, tasteless musical vomit. If they're wrong, then so is everyone of my generation who insists Drake's music is nothing but tasteless musical vomit.

Well, my point is that no one can be wrong or right, and I respect C M Dess' opinions as much as anyone else's. But every time I hear someone publicly condemn today's popular music, I feel like I have an obligation to hand out AARP membership forms and early bird discount coupons for Cracker Barrel.


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## Greg (Jul 21, 2018)

You can make $10 bucks off of his face if you have Spotify Premium. Even more vindictive than a pointless forum rant


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 21, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> The same exact thing has been said about ragtime, jazz, swing, rock-n-roll, Elvis, the Beatles, heavy metal, and all forms of today's pop music. Popular music evolves with each new generation, and in the process of evolving, is perceived as little more than vile noise to previous generations.



Those of us who grew up in the 20th century have learned to accept music that literally is vile noise! We grew up in the "art is whatever we decide is art" era. The boundaries have been shattered.

So I'm not ready to accept age as the reason some music sounds like utter shite to me. Usually the reason is that it actually is utter shite.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 21, 2018)

Turning that around, "these kids today" - like my 24-year-old daughter - know and love all the pop music we do.

The reason is that it's just really good music!


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## Polkasound (Jul 21, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> So I'm not ready to accept age as the reason some music sounds like utter shite to me. Usually the reason is that it actually is utter shite.



Yes, it actually is utter shite.... just like the music of Frank Sinatra, The Eagles, and Pearl Jam actually is utter shite... when you ask plenty of those kids at the Drake concert. It goes both ways.

There will always be young people who like older music, as there will also be older people who like new music. But the general rule is that Drake is expected to sound to you like Elvis Presley sounded to parents who grew up in the big band era -- like vile noise. And 30 years from now, the music is going to be even noisier and more vile. The millions of young people listening to Drake today will detest the pop music their kids will be listening to 30 years from now.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 21, 2018)

I honestly don't think that's it, Polkasound. The reason you and I don't respond to Drake isn't that we don't understand his music, it's that we don't particularly care for it (and in my case because I find him annoyingly jive).

When rock and roll came along, on the other hand, many older people just couldn't understand it - it had elements that were totally foreign to them. As I said, we fully understand lots of music that has a whole lot less to grab hold of than Drake's music. Very different thing, methinks.

Also, millions of people have always liked music you or I find lousy. Again, it wasn't that we don't *get* it, it was that we don't *like* it. That could be an age thing, but then why do I like, say, Common? Or Eminem? (Okay, they're a few years older, but those are just examples.)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 21, 2018)

Now, when you talk about other way around - kids who don't understand good music - that has nothing to do with age, it's because their schools don't have music departments. :(


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## Polkasound (Jul 22, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The reason you and I don't respond to Drake isn't that we don't understand his music, it's that we don't particularly care for it



Yes, I totally agree. We are all free to decide what music we like and dislike, and I dislike Drake's music for three main reasons: the style of the music doesn't appeal to me, I cannot relate to his lyrics, and the vulgar language is an instant turn-off.

But at the same time, I'll never trash any artist whose creativity enamors millions of people all over the world. If Drake's music were truly garbage, it would appeal to virtually no one, and he'd be lucky to get booked singing in the dairy building of the local county fair.

In my opinion, there's a big difference between not liking a current artist's music and openly declaring the artist and his music garbage. The first one is sharing an opinion. The second one is succumbing to the forces of the generation gap and turning into Red Forman.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> That could be an age thing, but then why do I like, say, Common? Or Eminem?



Personal preference. There's no hard rule that says people over the age of 50 are required to detest all music less than ten years old. But there is a general rule that says most will not care for it much, and as we age, we naturally become more and more detached from current music trends. The trick is to do it gracefully lest we turn into our parents. 



Nick Batzdorf said:


> Now, when you talk about other way around - kids who don't understand good music - that has nothing to do with age, it's because their schools don't have music departments. :(



It's not that they don't understand it. It's that they simply don't like it. It's dated and irrelevant. (Although if they were introduced to it early on, chances are many would develop some level of appreciation for it.)

I grew up in a household where classical music played over the radio all day, every day, and was occasionally punctuated by the European brass music of Ernst Mosch and polka music of Lojze Slak. My mom was an oboist, viola player, and church organist. Both my dad and oldest brother played professionally in the polka, dixieland jazz, and big band circuits. My sister was an acclaimed heavy metal drummer. They all toured the country. Even though I had all of these influences and later became a professional polka musician, I was a voracious listener of Top 40 all through my teens. To me, whether it was the Canadian Brass or Twisted Sister, it was ALL good music.

So even if kids today who listen to Drake were introduced to other kinds of music, they'd _still_ be listening to Drake. Some of them would have developed a wider appreciation of music, but Drake would still be on their playlist, and they'd still be going to his concerts.

Teenagers develop an antenna of sorts that seeks out and dials in music which amplifies their feelings and helps them find and establish their identity. Record companies know how to produce music specifically for those antennae, and they sign artists, like Drake, who can get the job done and subsequently rake in millions of dollars. As those teens turn into young adults with an established sense of identity and values, those antennae slowly shrink and fade away because they're no longer needed. Those people, now adults, will always appreciate the music they listened to during their earlier years, but with those antennae gone, their ability and desire to connect with and relate to succeeding generations of music naturally decreases. Before they know it, they're sitting around the card table at their local VFW complaining about the, "boom-boom-boom long-hair screaming guitar crap kids listen to these days" and insisting, "Patti Page... now THAT was real music!"


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## C M Dess (Jul 22, 2018)

Ahh the principals of "capitalism". First principal is start with monopoly! Free-market monopoly. Wow. Then let the slaves debate the results of whatever the monopolists dream up. Oh that's right they don't actually dream anything up they just find products of others and steal the ideas of others and take over the entire bandwidth with their product at the discount rate.

See: Nikola Tesla
See: Fast Food Nation
See: Confessions of an economic hitman
See: GRUNCH of Giants (how corporations serve the "lords" we don't get to see, ALWAYS)

Corporations are the vending machines of the invisible ruling class that always wins. The money being rigged isn't enough apparently.

This article explains why drakes music is special and should be number 1.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/12/01/ai-has-already-taken-over-its-called-the-corporation/

This thread keeps getting sandboxed into whether or not taste matters. In corporate culture, corporate agendas matter and slaves don't get a spectrum of choices they only get like 3 crap choices (3 for girls and boys so really 6, and non-binaries so like 9). Those with actual taste get zero choices however. lol.

So looking at the pie, we see it starts with drake signs deal launches all kinds of stuff. People then magically discover him after millions and million are spent cause he sold his soul to the tricky big man. Real artists number 1,000,000,000,000,000 on youtube while anything corporate is top 100 or headed there.

People did not find him on youtube and then democratically elect him as the savior of the music business based on hearing the music. That's the myth of the dream. This is the way the music business SHOULD have changed with the digital takeover, instead the corporations bought everything again because the silicon dreamers found out they work for the military and corporations first.

Kanye backed up what I said and he got a lot further with the snakes than I ever will.

My opinion of his music or anyones doesn't matter at all, I just gave it for shits and giggles. :D Of course I keep in touch with what they feed the masses these days, it's part of being a contemporary composer. My hope is to win back the experienced listener, maybe sometime after america's civil war stuff gets sorted, if ever. Unfortunately AI will have beaten me by then most likely cause there's worse things than even drake coming, if you can imagine that.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 22, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> f Drake's music were truly garbage, it would appeal to virtually no one



But you're missing the point, the public didn't put him on the pedestal....the investors did. They marketed, branded and sold the "product" called Drake, and they bought it hook, line and sinker. Otherwise, he WOULD appeal to no one. There's o way you can compare today's market with the likes of Elvis, Sinatra, Beatles, Michael Jackson, etc. Completely different ballgame.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 22, 2018)

C M Dess said:


> People did not find him on youtube and then democratically elect him as the savior of the music business based on hearing the music. That's the myth of the dream. This is the way the music business SHOULD have changed with the digital takeover, instead the corporations bought everything again because the silicon dreamers found out they work for the military and corporations first.



Precisely!!!!


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## brenneisen (Jul 22, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> To any one of those kids in the photo of Drake above, Drake is one of the best things that ever happened to music, because he says and does what they want to hear and see.




and because they are clueless and don't know better

(they really don't)


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## C M Dess (Jul 22, 2018)

Shows video of how the sausage is made. . . ignores video made by "loser", decides sausage is made from the finer parts of filet mignon, each piece handpicked by the aristocracy, cut by diamond craftsman, pieces glued by god himself with magic god glue, it's edible you see. All glue is edible unless one can prove it isn't. Only winners can prove glues edibility levels.

I really do think there's something strange going on worldwide. Started about 3/4 years ago. Things are getting wacky, drake level wacky.

Glues coming undone. Someone keeps eating it (corporations duh).


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## Polkasound (Jul 22, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> But you're missing the point, the public didn't put him on the pedestal....the investors did. They marketed, branded and sold the "product" called Drake, and they bought it hook, line and sinker.



I'm not missing that point at all. What you said about the investors is right. But what I'm also adding is that those investors can't just invest in anyone and make them a star. Sometimes their investments flop. They still need artists who are talented, charismatic, have the looks, and know how to create progressive, relevant music that resonates with young people.




Wolfie2112 said:


> Otherwise, he WOULD appeal to no one.



That depends on how much of Drake's music is Drake's, and how much of his music is his label's. If Drake's sound is truly Drake's, then he would still appeal to the youth without question, but without major label backing, his popularity would be dependent on his own marketing skills and budget.




Wolfie2112 said:


> There's no way you can compare today's market with the likes of Elvis, Sinatra, Beatles, Michael Jackson, etc. Completely different ballgame.



I disagree. Music and the music business are constantly evolving, but the concept of making money through the marketing and branding of artists who appeal to the youth has never changed. Even if Michael Jackson's music/image was 100% his but Drake's music/image is only 75% his, it doesn't matter. If the final product is good, the youth will like it. If the final product sucks, the youth will disregard it and the investment will be a flop.

The comment I made in my last post about producers knowing how to make music that vibrates the antennae of teenagers... it most definitely is a corporate agenda. Going well back into the 50's, there have been countless testimonials by artists who were given the choice to either conform to a particular style and repertoire and become famous, or stay true to their music and continue working in obscurity.




brenneisen said:


> and because they are clueless and don't know better



I respect your opinion, but I think that if we criticize today's teenagers as people who have no musical taste, then we're criticizing every teenager who ever listened to popular, parent-antagonizing music since the jazz age, including ourselves. And if we especially insist that _our_ generation's popular music was good but the popular music today sucks, then we've simply succumbed to the natural course of aging by turning into our parents. We're a generation older than our kids and no longer have the antennae that they have, so we don't possess their ability to identify pop star qualities in artists like Drake. Like it or not, what we saw in Michael Jackson, kids today see in Drake. Just because we can't comprehend what they are seeing doesn't make them wrong. It just makes us normal for our age.


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## jhughes (Jul 22, 2018)

Where does this idea come from that since lots of people like something, it's must be good? This idea if you think otherwise, you are wrong or old aged being left in the dust?
Lots of people eat at Mcdonalds, go to Starbucks but that doesn't mean it's some incredible meal or great....really, lots of people do lots of things, some of which is absolutely stupid. Lots of things kids did 20 years ago, they don't do anymore. Think of some toy that every kid had to have...

People often like things because they are accessible. Branding, marketing, and "coolness" factor play into so many every day decisions of your average consumer. Many humanoids choose or like something simply because they see it all the time, it's there. You can easily see this on a macro or micro level. Consumerism doesn't equal art, i don't see how anyone can deny it's effect on the music.

Historically speaking a great deal of art we considered great now wasn't really thought highly of at the time. There weren't droves of people around, lining up to hear or see it. 30 years from now, some of the stuff that's currently passed off as great won't even be considered, meanwhile, they'll still be studying Beethoven and Gershwin.


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## chimuelo (Jul 22, 2018)

Everything musical has a small lesson that’s worth a look see.
But as JHughes said we’re still studying music from centuries, and decades ago.
Must be more popular in the grand scheme of things.


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## cola2410 (Jul 22, 2018)

My experience - I have EDM roots and one day I made it (a hit). The label contacted me and said - make two like this one and then an album with the same sound. If you disagree look for a new label.
Basically what happens is music supervisors try to get fresh meat appealing to the public at least to some extent and make him a star. And it doesn't matter style-wise because everything changes, now it's hip-hop, tomorrow something else, it just needs to have something new and different, better if never heard or seen before. Then they milk the artist to death, show must go on, remember Avicii? They invest and dictate and of course expect returns but nobody can stay long without some external support because youth tastes and moods change quickly and after some time even money can't buy everything until the artist himself changes or accepts the changes. Remember how many different producers supported Madonna, Rihanna and others and I bet you all spotted the changes in sound, style and looks. Pop music was always like that - simple and catchy lines, a bit overperformed but fresh(!) sounds. It's the team behind you that rules like Noah James "40" Shebib (Drake), Ghazi Shami (Lamar), Amir "Cash" Ismailian (Weeknd) and sorry God, the mighty pop master Max Martin (I can't even count the acts he helped to climb the charts). 

P.S. Regarding Chicane post - the guy was my idol back in the days but not today for a simple reason. Chicane sounds dated and his nothing-new-music does not appeal to me anymore, and soul argument for me has nothing to do with it. Everything changes, even people like me and there are more interesting EDM acts these days.


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## Polkasound (Jul 22, 2018)

jhughes said:


> Where does this idea come from that since lots of people like something, it's must be good? This idea if you think otherwise, you are wrong or old aged being left in the dust?



That's a little bit out of context. As it relates to music, if a lot of young people like it, that means there is an undeniable quality to the music that they are hearing and enjoying. Regarding being old aged, that only applies to people who cannot accept the above concept and insist that young people are listening to garbage and have no taste in music.... just like their parents insisted before them, their parents' parents before them.




jhughes said:


> Many humanoids choose or like something simply because they see it all the time, it's there.



Choose? Yes. Like? No, I disagree. You can't like something you don't like. It's as simple as that. You can try by giving something time to grow on you, but at the end of the day, you can't like what you don't like.

I once had a conversation with an esteemed musician friend of mine (same age range as me) as we discussed the music we listened to in our early teens. Her favorite artist was Judy Garland. Mine was Quiet Riot. As we got deeper into the conversation, I told her about all the music I listened to: Madonna, Duran Duran, Van Halen, Tears for Fears, Poison, etc. and she could not believe that someone as musically cultured as me voluntarily chose to listen to those artists.

To this day, I'm pretty sure she still thinks I listened to them out of a desire to fit in, but that wasn't the case. I honestly liked the music. I never invested so much as a dime into any band or pop artist that I didn't like, and I firmly believe the same is true for teenagers today. I choose to give today's teens credit for liking what they like regardless of how it sounds to my ears.




jhughes said:


> 30 years from now, some of the stuff that's currently passed off as great won't even be considered, meanwhile, they'll still be studying Beethoven and Gershwin.



I agree with this 100%. But for the time being, to those kids who are downloading Drake and playing him on their iPods, Drake_ is_ good music.


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## Joakim (Jul 22, 2018)

With music being so subjective it's impossible to say who is right or wrong here.

But personally I think there is a lot of ignorance is bliss going around.


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## Polkasound (Jul 22, 2018)

Joakim said:


> With music being so subjective it's impossible to say who is right or wrong here.



Ultimately, that is what it comes down to, although I don't think anyone is claiming to be right or wrong. My opinion is simply that an adult proclaiming that Drake's music is crap is the same thing as a teenager calling an opera "booooooring!" Just like the teenager has no concept of what adults see in the opera, the adult has no concept of what young people see in Drake.

A conscientious teenager, despite the fact he dislikes opera, can still look at opera's popularity, understand that there is something about it appeals to adults, and therefore respect it as a form of music. A conscientious adult could do the same for today's popular music, too.


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## germancomponist (Jul 22, 2018)

Ask the 13 years old teenager what good music is? I bet, the most do not know it, but they vote for the hype, what the mass media is telling them .... .


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## nordicguy (Jul 22, 2018)

Ask the wathever age you want.
Chances are the same will apply.


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## Polkasound (Jul 22, 2018)

germancomponist said:


> Ask the 13 years old teenager what good music is? I bet, the most do not know it, but they vote for the hype, what the mass media is telling them .... .



The 13-year-old will tell what he thinks is good music based on what he honestly likes. If he happens to like the pop music that was created for, target at, and marketed to his generation -- just like I did when I was 13 -- his taste in music is still just as valid as anyone else's.


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## germancomponist (Jul 22, 2018)

Polkasound, what I wanted to say is that I believe that nowadays the people are more influenced from the mass media than ever before. Facebook e.t.c. ... .


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## Polkasound (Jul 22, 2018)

germancomponist said:


> Polkasound, what I wanted to say is that I believe that nowadays the people are more influenced from the mass media than ever before. Facebook e.t.c. ... .



Ah, OK. I thought you were saying that a 13-year-old will say he likes what's popular regardless of what he actually likes.


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## jhughes (Jul 22, 2018)

In order to like something you have to first be exposed to it. If you don't hear it then you can't like it.
What do people get exposed to the most? That's why people advertise, market, because a huge promo machine can make someone into a star. This is why there are people that cannot sing in tune to save their lives but are popular. It's not all about the music, there are social and consumerism aspects to it.

If you never hear Charlie Parker you will probably never like it. I hated Charlie Parker the first time I listened to him, took me about six months!

Exposure:
Someone that has that brother or family member that plays a little guitar that they think is the greatest-meanwhile there is some old blind guy at the local blues club that rips him to shreds, lol. The person thinks something is great because they never heard anything else. Exposure...
The reality is some people think certain music is great because that's the only thing they know.

Of course it's good music to the teens that listen to it. I never said it wasn't, I haven't listened to Drake so I don't have an opinion about his music. Arguing someone's tastes is impossible.
I enjoy 80's music and some pretty cornball stuff, in addition to more artsy things. I'm sure much of it sucks to other people.

However, I simply disagree that just because I think what some teen listens to sucks makes me unable to see past their tastes. That I'm like my parents (I don't actually recall my parents thinking my music tastes sucked by the way). Nor do I think mass appeal and artistic value have a direct correlation.
The difference here is I actually believe that the teens (or whomevers) tastes in music could actually suck. That the music could be (gasp) "bad."
I don't agree with the idea that everything is just subjective with no regard for craft or skill. Otherwise a house thrown together in 2 days is as good as one that took a year to build right.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jul 22, 2018)

Yeah, it's a nonsensical PC discussion. Especially as an intelligent adult person, educated artist and trained professional, you might just be able to hear that some things simply aren't that good. People can still enjoy them. Happens all the time. That's OK. The stuff still sucks.


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## Polkasound (Jul 22, 2018)

jhughes said:


> However, I simply disagree that just because I think what some teen listens to sucks makes me unable to see past their tastes.



I agree with you, because that's not quite what I was saying.

I maintain that there is a distinct difference between saying, "I don't like Drake's music," and declaring, "The millions of people who listen to Drake have no taste in music." Both are opinions, but they come from two very different mindsets.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 23, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> Ultimately, that is what it comes down to, although I don't think anyone is claiming to be right or wrong. My opinion is simply that an adult proclaiming that Drake's music is crap is the same thing as a teenager calling an opera "booooooring!" Just like the teenager has no concept of what adults see in the opera, the adult has no concept of what young people see in Drake.
> 
> A conscientious teenager, despite the fact he dislikes opera, can still look at opera's popularity, understand that there is something about it appeals to adults, and therefore respect it as a form of music. A conscientious adult could do the same for today's popular music, too.



Fair enough....but when was the last time you saw/heard Le Nozze de Figaro being marketed to death in social media to push album sales? I'm confident that Drake will be a fart in the wind soon. And then, onto the next investment. Drake and the record label have one focus...$$$$$.

I hear what you're saying though, this is an interesting topic.

Quiet Riot, eh? Love them! Opened for them in 1992, but it was a real disappointment because Kevin was a total dickhead (God rest his soul). Carlos, on the other hand, very cool.


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## cola2410 (Jul 23, 2018)

Actually I think Drake is not a good example. I've got a couple of friends who produce for rappers and one of them once said - rap is the music of the poor and in his view hip-hop as a style has more connection to music itself. Why? Because all you need to do is to be bright-minded and speak in multi-layered rhymes and apparently there are more people capable of doing that than playing piano without any training. Of course you need a mixtape to rap over it but is it difficult to do? No, good samples and creativity in using Maschine or Push or borrowed MPC and here you have it. You don't educate yourself to use structures like verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus or things like that. Dancing? Maybe a little bit but not required actually (look at Stormzy). Singing? No need. Complicated topics? Maybe but only compared to pop lyrics, nothing new under the sun. Yes lyrics is a big thing and sometimes you really need to have some street background for the success but how many youngsters study in music schools compared to simply being on the streets?
The magic is in that produced music that adds the needed color and brings the freshness. And once it feels dated the supervisors choose the most effective way - dump the old and get the fresh one or continue with the established artist but change the producer. It's no secret if the artist changes he gets more - keeps the old fans and gets the new ones so his army grows. Is it relevant for rappers like for popstars? I don't think so. Am I feeling envious about Drake's success? Absolutely not. Does Drake feel a bit envious about Michael Jackson's fame? Could be so because he uses MJ's unreleased song in the new album. Personally I don't see Drake's future because he's not a skilled producer but he's already got enough money to retire.


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## Polkasound (Jul 23, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Fair enough....but when was the last time you saw/heard Le Nozze de Figaro being marketed to death in social media to push album sales?



Never. But if someone were to release a hip-hop version of it...




Wolfie2112 said:


> I'm confident that Drake will be a fart in the wind soon. And then, onto the next investment. Drake and the record label have one focus...$$$$$.



My opinion is that the record label has one focu$ as you say, but I wouldn't be too quick to judge Drake without more information. I believe some pop artists begrudgingly conform to the industry for the fame and fortune, but others actually like and create the music that the industry wants to sell. The music Drake creates could be, quite possibly, exactly what he hears in his mind and feels in his soul, or else he could be a spineless tool of industry executives riding the gravy train. I'm not willing to make that call until I actually know.

Drake could be a fart in the wind soon, but let's remember Kendrick Lamar won a Pulitzer, so Kendrick's music will probably be revered for a long time. How close to Pulitzer material might Drake's music be? (I honestly have no clue because it all sounds the same to me. LOL)

---

No matter how hyped or promoted a song is, the youth will only like and buy it if it's good. They will not like it for any other reason than that. The reason teens like a lot of the hyped music is because the industry knows what they like. The industry creates, releases, and promotes what teens like. That's how the industry makes money. They've been making money that way since the days of Tin Pan Alley, and it's all legit. It's simply supply and demand (except it's a little less black & white since producers have to guess where the demand is headed every few years and alter their supply of goods to meet it.)

We've all heard plenty of stories about how record companies released what they were sure would be the next big hit, but the big hit turned out to be the song they tossed onto the single to fill the B-side. Incidents like the ones above show that what vibrates the antennae of the youth is in the music itself. Obviously image and marketing play a big role in exposure, but if there is nothing universally appealing about the music itself, it won't go anywhere.

We parents and older adults do not have the eyes and ears of today's youth, nor the experiences of being a teenager in 2018, and as a result, almost all of us lack the ability to discern the qualities of today's pop music that our youth can hear and feel. Some of us can accept this, because we can discern how vastly different our music was from our parents', and their music from their parents', and understand how music evolves from generation to generation. The rest of us unwittingly conform to the stereotypes of the generation gap by insisting that teenagers today don't know what good music is.

But they do, just like we did when we were their age.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 23, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> The trick is to do it gracefully lest we turn into our parents



Turning into my parents would be admirable, not ungraceful!

Anyway, I agree with most of what you're saying, just not the part about age. I and all my friends anywhere near my age are at the tops of our games, and we all respond to good music - which is communication - just as we always have (only hopefully we've gained *something* with experience!).


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## Polkasound (Jul 23, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Anyway, I agree with most of what you're saying, just not the part about age.



Well some of my comments to that effect were meant to be tongue-in-cheek, and they certainly don't apply across the board to everyone. But I believe that as people grow older, there is a widening disconnect between them and the evolution of popular music. Some adults are aware of this disconnect as a natural process, but there are others who, because I believe they are less keen to this disconnect, will proclaim that the music itself and the people listening to it are the problem.

It's a valid opinion, but this is what I mean by the idiom "turning into one's parents." It's the inability to comprehend that as music must change to meet the demands of each new generation, some of those changes are expected to sound awful. So whenever I hear someone 40+ bitching about the "awful crap clueless kids listen to these days", to my ears, it's nothing more than 1960's Patti Page vs. 1990's Pearl Jam repeating itself a generation later in time-honored tradition... a tradition I refuse to take part in.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 23, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> We parents and older adults do not have the eyes and ears of today's youth, nor the experiences of being a teenager in 2018, and as a result, almost all of us lack the ability to discern the qualities of today's pop music that our youth can hear and feel. Some of us can accept this, because we can discern how vastly different our music was from our parents', and their music from their parents', and understand how music evolves from generation to generation. The rest of us unwittingly conform to the stereotypes of the generation gap by insisting that teenagers today don't know what good music is.



I haven't had the experience of being alive during the 1850s, but I still love Beethoven.

I haven't had the experience of being discriminated against because of my skin color, but I still love Miles Davis.

I haven't had the experience of being a teenager in 2018, yet I still really like Arcade Fire. (They come to mind because we just watched a Saturday Night Live re-run, and they were *phenomenal.* That might be the best performance ever on that show, not counting their outrageously great house band.)

I haven't had the experience of being around during the time of Shakespeare, nor Monet, nor Renoir. My favorite artist is Picasso, and he died when I was in high school. They all say something to me.

You don't have to be around the same time as any art for it to affect you. Nor are you necessarily missing anything, let alone over the hill, because you don't like something.

There's adolescent rebellion - I had a very stormy one! - but there is no generation gap, just a continuum. And I for one never generalize about teenagers or people of any age.

It is too bad that music education isn't as big a part of schooling as it used to be, however.


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## Polkasound (Jul 23, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> You don't have to be around the same time as any art for it to affect you. Nor are you necessarily missing anything, let alone over the hill, because you don't like something.



Yes, you are absolutely right. But my commentary wasn't about not liking something, but rather the difference between not liking Drake's music and declaring it, and the musical tastes of all who listen to it, as bad. I know that may sound like the same thing to some people, but to me, it's two different mindsets.

Here's an analogy (not a great one, but the best I can come up with on short notice.) Let's say that people generally lose their ability to see the color red by age 40. So when 40+ adults go to an art gallery, all the paintings of sunsets look atrocious to them. Some adults are aware of their condition and simply look for other paintings to enjoy and buy. They don't judge the sunset pictures or anyone who buys them. But some adults openly detest the sunset paintings as pure trash. "How can anyone like those sunset pictures? They're garbage! Young people these days don't know what good art is!"

It's my belief that this is somewhat similar to what happens to us as we get older and older. Most of us gradually lose the ability and desire to connect with the latest progressive trends in music, which is completely natural -- essentially a law of nature. Some of us will go about our lives simply disliking the music and choosing to listen to other stuff, but some of us will turn into Red Forman and openly declare that the music absolutely sucks, period, and the millions of teenagers who listen to it don't know good music. I have friends in my age group that have already turned into Red Formans, and they're embarrassing as hell to be around when they talk about music. (I tell them to save their complaining for the nursing home 40 years from now. LOL)

Anyway, I'll probably bow out of this thread now, because I now find myself occasionally reiterating points by reposting stuff I've said earlier. That's probably my fault though, because I can't always find the best way to articulate what I am trying to convey. I've enjoyed all the perspectives shared in this thread, though, and I look forward to hearing more.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 23, 2018)

I’ve lost my ability to give a shit about Snapchat. Colors, I still like them all.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 23, 2018)

Kids mostly listen to what their peers listen to and what's on the radio/Internet/whatever. I'm not a hip hop fan, but at least I get that, regardless of my personal tastes.


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## chimuelo (Jul 24, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> It is too bad that music education isn't as big a part of schooling as it used to be, however.


100% with you there.
It’s up to the parents and grandparents to blend in sports, art and music education being left out by our Federal Unionized Indoctrination Centers.

A colleague of mine made sure his 2 kids studied Classical Piano.
It’s the discipline and pressure of performance that turns kids (chunks of coal) into diamonds.
They breezed through exams in school, which sadly in many States doesn’t believe in homework.
They are both graduates from Cornell and Stanford.
Engineering and Computer programming with a minor in Drones.
One works at Google, the other at Cisco, right out of College.
Not only does it provide discipline and equally draws energy from the entire brain, the comprehension levels are drastically increased.

If you allow the DOE to dictate what your child should learn, you’re cheating them of their future, it’s that simple.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 24, 2018)

Music is definitely good for the brain.

Interesting that you see states *not* believing in homework! Here it's the opposite - instead of improving the teaching, the response to all those college grads in China and India willing to work for much less than Americans is just to pile on the homework. I was always complaining that my daughter didn't have time for normal activities.

But yeah, DOE is doing its best to make American stupid. War merchant/criminal Erik Prince's sister Betsy DeVos bought her cabinet position.


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## C M Dess (Jul 24, 2018)

Anyone notice the iTunes Review? He was listed on the front page and isn't there now at all, I wonder if it was too much blatant corruption/monopoly and they got hella hate mail like on the other online outlets. Love to see real humans fighting the corporate slumlords filth.


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## C M Dess (Jul 24, 2018)

This discussion is still getting trapped into taste preferences. I listen to whatever I can find from the new generation including drake. My ears got barf on lock. They listen to Trap and HipHop a lot cause they all smoke weed EVERYWHERE ( I don't do drugs or drink or party ) and it's party music so it reminds them of sex and drugs and it's offered to them by the corporations that push vaping and mikes hard lemon lime and the like.

I think the real deciding force is that it's about ticket sales and they promote "things" to get people to go to concerts. They can actually cash that money at a bank unlike .0004 for streams. Thanks Elon Musk, thanks a lot.

So the agency wants some sort of dancing puppet actor guy. No one's saying that's easy just that it matters more in the music industry than the music, which is not right. The next guy in the next life will think the same thing if he has any integrity. I'm not sure when it happened, I don't see Chopin being a dancing madman.

I actually liked his song motherfuckas neva loved us, and hold on we're going home because I come from something like poverty and know what it is when no one comes around because you don't have the toys today. I never recovered from that feeling in 36 years. But he also has ghostwriters because EVERYONE in that system uses the system like that. Nobody I knew in California listened to drake ( I worked in restaurants cleaning toilets 12 years and new a lot of people high and low, mostly people who pee and poop or worse... ).

It is also important to fight for the integrity (virtuosity) of music no matter if it has an impact on the polls or metrics. Artists do music, I dunno what business people are about. I just know I don't like any of them at all that I have met, cause they only care about the devils petro money and think they can steal from artists.

What's saddening is the new trend of people succumbing to giving the devil the benefit of the doubt. The good people they just assume something's wrong with them, where as trump is here to save the world, just believe. oh man.

There's so much happening right now that effects peoples judgement that I can't even get into. I'm just trying to join the choir of frogs who are concerned the water temp might be going up a little. But the other frogs (shill frogs?) break off on tangents to discuss the flavor of the water because somebody peed in it (drake).


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## cola2410 (Jul 24, 2018)

C M Dess said:


> It is also important to fight for the integrity (virtuosity) of music no matter if it has an impact on the polls or metrics. Artists do music, I dunno what business people are about. I just know I don't like any of them at all that I have met, cause they only care about the devils petro money and think they can steal from artists.
> 
> What's saddening is the new trend of people succumbing to giving the devil the benefit of the doubt. The good people they just assume something's wrong with them, where as trump is here to save the world, just believe. oh man.
> 
> There's so much happening right now that effects peoples judgement that I can't even get into. I'm just trying to join the choir of frogs who are concerned the water temp might be going up a little. But the other frogs (shill frogs?) break off on tangents to discuss the flavor of the water because somebody peed in it (drake).



This is excellent, kudos man.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 24, 2018)

C M Dess said:


> There's so much happening right now that effects peoples judgement



And that's my argument. It IS different from years ago, when the populous (including youth) made their own decisions on what they liked and what they didn't. I don't ever recall liking the Culture Club because other kids did....I just liked it, as I did Iron maiden, Twisted Sister, Michael Jackson, Kiss, U2, Human League, etc. Was it crap at that time? It probably was to some extent, but I chose to buy those records because I went out of my way to discover new music. Hell, I even bought a lot of records on a whim, without even knowing what the bands sounded like. Some I liked, some I didn't, but it was all up to me. Today, the youth can't see the needles in the haystack (good music) because of all the shit that's in the way (ie; social media turbulence), many just follow the herd because "it must be good if everyone else is listening to it". Age is completely irrelevant. I like a lot of stuff that my kids listened to growing up, and vice versa; and they probably like Zeppelin and Elvis because I exposed them to all that stuff and gave them the intellectual tools to make their own artistic judgment.

I agree about teaching music in the schools, it is very important; not only the discipline but the music appreciation.


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## Polkasound (Jul 24, 2018)

I wasn't going to jump in, but it's late and I have a few minutes, so...



Wolfie2112 said:


> Today, the youth can't see the needles in the haystack (good music) because of all the shit that's in the way (ie; social media turbulence), many just follow the herd because "it must be good if everyone else is listening to it".



The reason I disagree with this is because people, especially youth, listen to music to feel good. To dream. To lift their spirits. To heal pain. To express their inner feelings/angst. The power of music would be completely lost on them if they were buying and listening to music from which they weren't getting anything.

Let's say a kid doesn't like Drake. Hanging around his friends, however, he is going to be exposed to Drake's music. When he goes home later that day, do you think he's going to add those Drake songs to his personal playlist, change his his desktop wallpaper to a photo of Drake, and make lip-synced Drake videos for his YouTube channel just because his friends like Drake? Not a chance in hell. Young people do a lot of things to fit in with their peers, but at the end of the day, that sacred space between earbud L and earbud R is each kid's personal sanctuary. If he doesn't like Drake, then Drake is not going to make the cut.

Young music consumers today aren't downloading music because their friends are. They're downloading Drake and/or The Weeknd, Cardi B, Bruno Mars, Kanye West, Imagine Dragons, etc. because they honestly and truly like it, _exactly_ the same as you and I liked Culture Club and Twister Sister. Drake's music connects with the youth today like MC Hammer did with the youth the '80s and Little Richard in the '50s. It's just that the music has evolved to meet the desires/tastes of the current generation, and the way music is promoted and delivered has changed as well. But it's my honest opinion that these changes have no effect on anyone's proclivity to approve/disapprove of what they hear. That's the one thing that has never changed over the generations.



Wolfie2112 said:


> and they probably like Zeppelin and Elvis because I exposed them to all that stuff and gave them the intellectual tools to make their own artistic judgment.



The CD I released in 2016 jumps around from a 40's pop song to an 80's pop song, to an Irish reel, to an Alpine Volksmusik waltz, to a contemporary folk ballad, to a concert band march... etc. Thankfully, I was exposed to a lot of different kinds of music growing up, so my musical tastes are so varied today... almost to a fault, LOL! So I think it's important to do as Wolfie did -- be a teacher and purveyor of music by exposing your kids to all kinds of it. If they're not learning music appreciation in school and not learning it at home, their entire perspective of what good music is could end up being extremely narrow. Sure, they could grow up happy and healthy listening to nothing but hip-hop all their lives, but exposure to other forms of music would broaden their horizons a thousand times further than Top 40 radio ever could, and enrich their lives forever. There's no reason why Halsey and Haydn couldn't share a little space on everyone's thumb drive.


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## storyteller (Jul 31, 2018)

Taking a break from my mixing day on my hip-hop challenge song so I could post an update here...

First... !!!!!!

Second... I thought writing the song was the challenge. Nope. Mixing it. Respect, Lu Diaz.

Third... The next time I post in this thread, there will be a soundcloud link attached in my post.

That is all for now.


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## Jazzy_Joe (Jul 31, 2018)

A very interesting post, and one with no real answer as stated before!

I don't care whether it's Beethoven, someone blowing through a straw into a bowl of water, Bitches Brew or a smoking Hip hop track with tight rhythmic flows, as long as it has a groove and feel I'm in... 

And honestly, it took me years to 'get over' my academic musical-self to learn to just connect with the textures and melody's, and to learn to listen as a listener. As musicians and composers, its difficult not to hear all sound as a technical listening exercise and judge it accordingly!


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## Jon K (Aug 2, 2018)

Don't let the mainstream garbage ruin the good music that exists out there, Run the Jewels is an amazing hip hop duo and this performance on Colbert with Tv on the radio is excellent.


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## toowrongfoo (Aug 3, 2018)

Nothing specific, he's just the next in line in the "idiotic rap retard" reference.

Next week (month, year) it will be someone else. He's Canadian, though, which increases his chances exponentially.

(People that hate murica but live in LA................)


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## storyteller (Aug 8, 2018)

novicecomposer said:


> Can some of you guys write something like that and put it on the top?



Here is the soundcloud link to the first song written, produced, and mixed for this challenge. It was the second song recorded. Any feedback would be appreciated. Please like if you enjoy the song.


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## novicecomposer (Aug 9, 2018)

@storyteller Wow! This is fantastic!! Thanks for sharing! One suggestion: you might want to throw in some F-words in the lyrics to make it colorful. That's one of the patterns I see in most of the top songs in Spotify charts in these fuckedup days we live in.

And could you please share your process of how you produced this song? Obviously, I don't hear bassoons and trombones in your piece. I'm still trying to figure out what VSTs to use as all I have is classical orchestral instruments. I think I got the vocal part covered though. The title of my first track will be, "Fuck Beethoven, Let me Pay my Bills!". I'll also post it here once done.



C M Dess said:


> It bothers me that I think they are "mixing for cell phones".
> 
> ...The Internet and Computers culture totally crushed the fidelity aspect



So back in the good old days there was no electricity and no speakers, people had to go to a concert theater to listen to music, real live music. Original sounds, even better quality than something through your $3,000 studio monitor speakers.


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## Dear Villain (Aug 9, 2018)

novicecomposer said:


> The title of my first track will be, "Fuck Beethoven, Let me Pay my Bills!"



You're hilarious  You write the music that's in you to write; which isn't necessarily what pays the bills. If the music you write won't pay the bills, the trick becomes finding something to do that does, and still leaves you the time and energy to write the music you want to write. At least, that's how music continues to hold meaning for me. What sense is there trying to write popular music, if that's not your interest or skill? You'll just continue to struggle financially, (because if you're not authentic, your "popular music" will not be popular) and worse, you'll look back at the music you wrote with disdain, having chosen to forgo your true calling/talent in search of the almighty dollar.

In my own journey, I've begun to realize the importance of valuing things that aren't money-related. Of course, you gotta eat and pay the rent, so that's where accepting that music may never be your source of income frees you to write as you wish, and pay the bills some other way (hopefully that way is equally interesting to you, so that the work has its rewards).

Cheers!
Dave


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## toowrongfoo (Aug 9, 2018)

Drake could be DJ Kahled or whatever. He's the flavor of the "month" ... 

I don't like the repetitive nature of what he does and don't think he's as special as he is, but then again I hate the country equivalent. No, I'm not a mastermind composer and no I don't think you shouldn't listen to what you want, but it's so overdone right now, it doesn't matter who's popular.


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## storyteller (Sep 28, 2018)

For fun, here is the lyric video that was just released for Magic Getdown. The storyboards are from my good friend Raymond Dumas III. I linked to his imdb page. We plan to shoot the full video with a remix to the song in the near future. Your comments and feedback are valuable to us, so please reply back with whatever thoughts you may have.


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