# MIDI Control Surfaces (2017)



## rap_ferr (Feb 25, 2017)

Hello guys,

I searched for some old posts and got no conclusion about MIDI Control Surfaces for midi cc messages.

Right now I'm using an old nanoKontrol, but I think that the faders are too short.

I wish I had money to buy JL Cooper's MasterFader Pro. But I can't right now.

Then there's the control surfaces that don't allow you to map cc's to the faders. How do I kown if they allow? I think that with Presonus' FaderPort I can't map the fader to cc1 for example...

I thought about Novation's Launch Control XL, which has a reasonable price and 60 mm faders. Though I'm afraid because I'm using Cubase and it seems to be geared to Ableton Live.

Another candidate is Maschine Jam, but I couldn't find if the strips can be mapped to cc's.


So, what would you guys recommend?

I'm searching for a new long fader MIDI Control Surface.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/423587-REG/JLCooper_FADERMASTER_P_FaderMaster_Pro_MIDI_Automation.html


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## mc_deli (Feb 25, 2017)

Akai MPD232 here. 60mm faders. Good software, easy mapping of CCs. Only niggle is that is a row of 16 sequencer buttons that are not available to be mapped to anything. Other than that, nice piece.


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## givemenoughrope (Feb 25, 2017)

Why is the JLCooper so desirable? Build quality?


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## PaulBrimstone (Feb 25, 2017)

rap_ferr said:


> Hello guys,
> 
> I searched for some old posts and got no conclusion about MIDI Control Surfaces for midi cc messages.
> 
> ...


I can give a cautious thumbs up for the Launch Control XL. The faders and knobs map ccs easily via its own software, in which which you can save lots of different sets. I find the 60mm faders plenty big enough for my uses (vib, expression, dynamics, mics etc.), although a lot of folk prefer 100mms. Plus there are lots of extra knobs if you want to also control VI parameters. The supporting online manuals are quite thin, but with a bit of trial and error it's fairly easy to work out. I'm using Logic but I'm sure it will work just fine with Cubase — can anyone confirm?


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## foxby (Feb 25, 2017)

Hi rap_ferr,

I bought _Maschine Jam_ for the same reasons, and works as expected. You can map and save your configurations. Very responsive strips and you can color code them as well.


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## rap_ferr (Feb 25, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> Akai MPD232 here. 60mm faders. Good software, easy mapping of CCs. Only niggle is that is a row of 16 sequencer buttons that are not available to be mapped to anything. Other than that, nice piece.


Hello mc_deli, thanks for the reply! I didn't even considered Akais because I couldn't find how long the faders where and from the pictures, they seemed to be 45mm.

But thanks!



givemenoughrope said:


> Why is the JLCooper so desirable? Build quality?



Build quality and 100mm faders mainly.



PaulBrimstone said:


> I can give a cautious thumbs up for the Launch Control XL. The faders and knobs map ccs easily via its own software, in which which you can save lots of different sets. I find the 60mm faders plenty big enough for my uses (vib, expression, dynamics, mics etc.), although a lot of folk prefer 100mms. Plus there are lots of extra knobs if you want to also control VI parameters. The supporting online manuals are quite thin, but with a bit of trial and error it's fairly easy to work out. I'm using Logic but I'm sure it will work just fine with Cubase — can anyone confirm?



Thanks, Paul! It's Lauch Control is the strongest candidate up to now for me!


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## EvilDragon (Feb 25, 2017)

rap_ferr said:


> Another candidate is Maschine Jam, but I couldn't find if the strips can be mapped to cc's.



They can. All NI controllers have MIDI controller mode, and you map everything however you want using Controller Editor.


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## rap_ferr (Feb 25, 2017)

foxby said:


> Hi rap_ferr,
> 
> I bought _Maschine Jam_ for the same reasons, and works as expected. You can map and save your configurations. Very responsive strips and you can color code them as well.





EvilDragon said:


> They can.



Thanks guys! Very tempted to replace the nanoKontrol with the Maschine Jam now.


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## Xaviez (Feb 25, 2017)

I had the Launch Control XL, good device overall and flexible. I got rid of mine however because I found the type of fader knob on them made it nigh impossible to control more than one fader at any given time using a single hand.
Could prob have changed the fader caps, but it was also too big for my limited desk space so I went with a NanoKontrol2 instead.

Perhaps this could be of interest for you?
http://iconproaudio.com/product/icontrols-pro/

I have no personal experience with that specific controller, but I do own one of their keyboards and I'm very happy with it, I've also tested their NanoKontrol2 clone (iControls (non-pro)) and found the faders on it to be vastly superior to the NanoKontrol2, though not sure they are any longer than the Korg faders so not sure if that one is the right for you.
Checked the user manual and according to it you should be able to "Assign MIDI functions to the fader", not sure exactly what they mean by that but throw their support an email, they've been very responsive whenever I've reached out to them.


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## Xaviez (Feb 25, 2017)

rap_ferr said:


> Thanks guys! Very tempted to replace the nanoKontrol with the Maschine Jam now.


Unless you are used to touch strip faders, make sure to go to a store and try it on for size first, I personally can't get used to it.


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## synthpunk (Feb 25, 2017)

How about taking the leap with the rest of us...







*Faderctrl*
8 -100mm Penny & Giles faders, steel small profile box, customizable through mac & pc software, affordable pricing ($250 +ship usd), vi-control community project.

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/faderctrl-universal-midi-controller.58734/

Hit Cory @CACKLAND up with any questions.


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## procreative (Feb 25, 2017)

There is this one http://iconproaudio.com/product/platform-x/ announced at NAMM but not shipping yet, its a cutdown version of this one http://iconproaudio.com/product/platform-m/

Can be assigned to Midi CC. Has motorized faders, but they turn into unmotorized faders in CC mode.

Looked high and low and no way currently to have motorized faders with CC. Seems Cubase users have a wayto use them, but it means turning Midi CC into automation.

Why am I obsessed with automating Midi CC faders?

1. The faders reflect the position of the CC data on a track.

2. Overdubbing CC data becomes easier, no more wiggling a fader to get it in sync with the data.

Also this controller has an optional LCD scribble strip so you know what each fader does.

Icon support said they might look into making it work with the motorized faders in CC mode, but I doubt they will get any success unless they can write it into a control surface plugin.


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## heisenberg (Feb 25, 2017)

What fader controller is in this image (from Spitfire Audio)?


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## holywilly (Feb 25, 2017)

heisenberg said:


> What fader controller is in this image (from Spitfire Audio)?


Peavey PC1600, discontinued 10 years ago.


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## novaburst (Feb 25, 2017)

That looks like the control freak if your referring to the one on top of the keyboard


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## heisenberg (Feb 25, 2017)

Does look like the Peavy but I concur it looks like the 16 channel edition of the discontinued Kenton Electronics Control. Freak.


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## Nathanael Iversen (Feb 25, 2017)

givemenoughrope said:


> Why is the JLCooper so desirable? Build quality?


Yes, and the faders are 100mm long, which really helps with resolution and accuracy.


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## Michael Antrum (Feb 25, 2017)

I've got an old Behringer BCF2000 in the cupboard. I've been thinking about trying to get that set up and runnning as a CC controller. I think they still make them, and even though they are a bit obtuse, they have 100mm sliders and are pretty cheap aren't they ? Or is there some reason they are not suitable I don't know about ?


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## EvilDragon (Feb 26, 2017)

BCF2000 is great. Sliders can also send stuff like NRPN and sysex, AFAIK. And best of all - they're motorized!


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## Michael Antrum (Feb 26, 2017)

I bought it over a decade ago on Denmark Street W1 to use with Reason. I soon moved on to Logic Pro, and the BCF ended up in the cupboard. IIRC it was about £ 170 at the time - which is apparently about £ 3,500,000.00 in todays money.

Thank ED, I'm definitely going to take the time to get it set up.


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## EvilDragon (Feb 26, 2017)

mikeybabes said:


> IIRC it was about £ 170 at the time - which is apparently about £ 3,500,000.00 in todays money.



Laughing my ass off.


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## Ashermusic (Feb 26, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> BCF2000 is great. Sliders can also send stuff like NRPN and sysex, AFAIK. And best of all - they're motorized!



I don't like motorized faders for MIDI ccs personally.


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## EvilDragon (Feb 26, 2017)

Great, we're all different.


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## Ashermusic (Feb 26, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> Great, we're all different.



Sure, horses for courses.


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## synthpunk (Feb 26, 2017)

Yes just about everyone agrees with that, it'seems a bad idea.

If your looking for flying faders for mixing and daw control there is still the single PreSonus Faderport if you can get it working (In Logic), and the Behringer X Touch Compact.



Ashermusic said:


> I don't like motorized faders for MIDI ccs personally.


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## Markus Kohlprath (Feb 26, 2017)

Since I got my i pad with lemur working I never have been looking for anything else. It works very reliable and accurate, you can customize the size of any fader and make different surfaces for different libraries.
And most important: it never failed to work no matter which updates came across. Something all the hardware controllers I put my fingers on always struggled with.
So I can strongly recommend to consider it as an option.
If you already own an iPad it's even one of the cheapest solutions.


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## Michael Antrum (Feb 26, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> Yes just about everyone agrees with that, it'seems a bad idea.



Why is that exactly ? I've just retrieved my BCF2000 from the loft, and whilst I am banging my head to get the configuration correct, the faders feel just fine to me. I mean, they aren't the most expensive and smoothest of faders - but they didn't cost that very much either.

Just interested as to what the problem with them actually is ?


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## EvilDragon (Feb 26, 2017)

There is no problem. :D Motorized faders usually have the option to disable the motors. So they can behave like regular sliders too. Best of both worlds, really.


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## Ashermusic (Feb 26, 2017)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> Since I got my i pad with lemur working I never have been looking for anything else. It works very reliable and accurate, you can customize the size of any fader and make different surfaces for different libraries.
> And most important: it never failed to work no matter which updates came across. Something all the hardware controllers I put my fingers on always struggled with.
> So I can strongly recommend to consider it as an option.
> If you already own an iPad it's even one of the cheapest solutions.



I just find dragging my finger on a screen tactilely unsatisfying compare to using a good fader. I was very motivated to like it, but just could not


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## Smikes77 (Feb 26, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> I just find dragging my finger on a screen tactilely unsatisfying compare to using a good fader. I was very motivated to like it, but just could not



Same here.


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## Michael Antrum (Feb 26, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> I just find dragging my finger on a screen tactilely unsatisfying compare to using a good fader. I was very motivated to like it, but just could not



I don't quite understand - What screen ? We were talking about a physical motorised slider not a touchscreen.

Ignore - I think I must have cross posted or something. Perhaps I am just hard of reading !


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## muziksculp (Feb 26, 2017)

Hi,

I'm using the *Livid Alias 8* Control Surface. It is no longer in production, but I found it a little while ago in stock at Musicians's Friend. It is compact, and does the job. Although you need to use the online application to program the unit's faders, knobs, and buttons. You can store your customized assignments into presets. and it works pretty well as a general purpose Control-Surface. I also tend to just use Midi-Learn quite a bit, when I need to.

I also have NI's *Maschine Studio*, which has a MIDI Control Mode, and can be customized as well, but I haven't used this yet, but I plan to do so in the near future.

Here is a pic of the *Alias 8* on my Studio Desk being used with SampleModeling's SWAM Cello 





Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Geoff Grace (Feb 26, 2017)

No love for Akai's Advance series of controllers?

Best,

Geoff


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## rap_ferr (Feb 26, 2017)

Guys,

Thanks for all the replys!

I'm testing the ipad solution while I don't buy anything. So far, it seems to be working, but not as satisfying as a physical fader.

The other problem is that I can't find certain products and it's difficult to buy from an US store here in my country.

So far I found:

NI Maschine Jam (strips - can be mapped to cc's)
Behringer X-Touch Compact (motorized faders, don't know if they can be turned off - can be mapped to cc's)
Presonus FaderPort Pro (motorized faders, don't know if they can be turned off nor if they can be mapped to cc's)


Which of these options would you recommend?


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## synthpunk (Feb 26, 2017)

The Behringer X Touch Compact ( but not the big brother) does have a selectable Daw/midi CC mode switch, not sure if the motorized faders can be disabled.

The Faderport and Faderport 8 can not be used for midi CC's that I know of.

If you do not need motorized faders I recommend the Fadercntrl. You can use paypal. http://vi-control.net/community/threads/midi-control-surfaces-2017.60186/#post-4059310

You could look at the Nektar, or pick up a used Peavey pc1600x (smaller faders), Fadermaster, or Kenton on Ebay/CL/reverb


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## Markus Kohlprath (Feb 26, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> I just find dragging my finger on a screen tactilely unsatisfying compare to using a good fader. I was very motivated to like it, but just could not


Yes I understand well being a musician who spent most of his time to create music with physical instruments. But somehow I feel really comfortable with the touch screen and an immediate response to the movements of the fingers that is almost better than physical faders. It's also a matter of getting used to it.


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## procreative (Feb 26, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> The Behringer X Touch Compact ( but not the big brother) does have a selectable Daw/midi CC mode switch, not sure if the motorized faders can be disabled.



If its like every other unit, the motorised faders will be disabled the minute its in CC mode. I did loads of research trying to find one that could use motorised faders in CC mode and I think there is a fundamental reason they cannot operate as such.

I think its because none of the DAWS cans end midi feedback to midi faders, they have to be sending automation to be automated.

I get why people say they prefer non automated, but to me having to wiggle the fader to get it to be recognised in sync is a bit of a kludge and also trying to remember which CC does what.

The nearest I have got is using a Komplete Kontrol keyboard in midi mode as at least the scribble strips tell you what each controller does, but they do not update in real time and these are knobs not sliders as NI in their wisdom decided all that extra space on the keyboard should just be dead space.


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## Ashermusic (Feb 26, 2017)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> It's also a matter of getting used to it.



Believe me, I tried. Not for me.


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## tack (Feb 26, 2017)

procreative said:


> If its like every other unit, the motorised faders will be disabled the minute its in CC mode. I did loads of research trying to find one that could use motorised faders in CC mode and I think there is a fundamental reason they cannot operate as such.


The Platform M doesn't disable motorized faders when running in custom CC mode. This does mean you need to send CCs back out to it to keep the fader positions where you left them, either using something like Bome's MIDI Translator or ...



procreative said:


> I think its because none of the DAWS cans end midi feedback to midi faders, they have to be sending automation to be automated.


... it's possible with Reaper, but yes, it'd be nice if this were made much easier and more universal.


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## procreative (Feb 26, 2017)

tack said:


> The Platform M doesn't disable motorized faders when running in custom CC mode. This does mean you need to send CCs back out to it to keep the fader positions where you left them, either using something like Bome's MIDI Translator or ...
> 
> 
> ... it's possible with Reaper, but yes, it'd be nice if this were made much easier and more universal.



Okay I stand corrected on that one (although their support told me in custom CC mode motorised faders were switched off).

I am on Logic, I found a way to output faders back to an external controller, but its unworkable as it requires an environment object for EVERY track, plus there is no way to differentiate between tracks for the external controller as there is no track focus so when you play back the faders pick up data from every track.

At least for Logic, it would need a custom written control surface plugin. However not optimistic as the only protocols that exist to translate MIDI into controller data since the last 15 years or so are HUI, Mackie Control, Logic Control and EUCON. Every controller out there uses one of these.

So Logic needs a way to translate faders to CC and set up say 8 faders to focus on 1 track at a time. But the MCU setup uses 1 fader in banks of 8 (so 8 faders sending the same data) and then banks automatically.


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## Goldie Zwecker (Feb 26, 2017)

What about the Nektat Panorama P1?


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## artmanjam (Feb 27, 2017)

Not sure it will help anyone but just to say, I'm using my DM2k to record the CC automation. It has been a quite long search but I finally figured out the setup.

Compared to my ZeroSLMkII, it's been incredibly more efficient and fast. Again, the User Remote faders are not motorized but if needed I can snap the fader to the right CC value before touching and punching in, thanks to the track display. I must say it has been a huge improvement to enhance instruments expressivity (expression, vibratos, VSL filters etc). It often works in one go, thanks to the faders quality as I had to re-record several times before.

I use Cubase's Quick Controls and I get 8 CC faders on the console. One can use several groups of 8 tracks with different labels for different orchestral banks if needed.

I really enjoyed improving the workflow with this more than 15 years old versatile console...


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## Paul T McGraw (Feb 27, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> How about taking the leap with the rest of us...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Looks like a perfect solution.


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## storyteller (Mar 14, 2017)

tack said:


> The Platform M doesn't disable motorized faders when running in custom CC mode. This does mean you need to send CCs back out to it to keep the fader positions where you left them, either using something like Bome's MIDI Translator or ...
> 
> 
> ... it's possible with Reaper, but yes, it'd be nice if this were made much easier and more universal.


Did you end up getting the Platform M? I am considering ordering one since I missed the Faderctrl first round...


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## tack (Mar 14, 2017)

storyteller said:


> Did you end up getting the Platform M? I am considering ordering one since I missed the Faderctrl first round...


Yep. That video in my previous post is me with the Platform M. Here are some other thoughts.


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## storyteller (Mar 14, 2017)

tack said:


> Yep. That video in my previous post is me with the Platform M. Here are some other thoughts.


Good stuff in that video. Thanks for posting that, @tack. I missed it in the first post. Sounds like Platform M is a pretty solid product from what you are saying (with some quirks). I do have a couple more questions. I spoke with the guys at Icon and they said the iMap software for OS X is coming soon (not even in beta yet though), but I can still use my windows machines to setup everything to work on OS X - so I'm okay with that for now. But, I am curious, are the faders bankable for midi? Meaning, can I set the first 8 faders to certain CCs and then a second 8 of faders to another set of CCs etc? And, can a fader control multiple CCs at once, or are they limited to just one single CC at a time?


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## tack (Mar 14, 2017)

storyteller said:


> But, I am curious, are the faders bankable for midi? Meaning, can I set the first 8 faders to certain CCs and then a second 8 of faders to another set of CCs etc? And, can a fader control multiple CCs at once, or are they limited to just one single CC at a time?


Not bankable, and single CCs only.

But once you stick something like Bome MIDI Translator in between the control surface and the DAW, all these things are possible with a sufficiently clever set of translators. Though admittedly the cleverer you get, the more of a programmer's brain is needed.


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## storyteller (Mar 14, 2017)

tack said:


> Not bankable, and single CCs only.
> 
> But once you stick something like Bome MIDI Translator in between the control surface and the DAW, all these things are possible with a sufficiently clever set of translators. Though admittedly the cleverer you get, the more of a programmer's brain is needed.


Thanks for the reply. I wonder if any of the controllers are bankable without creative intervention? I'm guessing probably not...but that's something I guess I'll dig into. Other than that, I'm liking the Platform M.


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## tack (Mar 14, 2017)

storyteller said:


> I wonder if any of the controllers are bankable without creative intervention? I'm guessing probably not


The MIDI Fighter Twister is, although it's a rather different form factor than the Platform M. 

I don't know the control surface landscape very well, but I have to think that there must be some out there that support banks. It's conceptually not difficult.


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## storyteller (Mar 14, 2017)

tack said:


> The MIDI Fighter Twister is, although it's a rather different form factor than the Platform M.
> 
> I don't know the control surface landscape very well, but I have to think that there must be some out there that support banks. It's conceptually not difficult.


Good to know. Midi Fighter Twister looks rad, but not exactly what I was looking for.  Just hypothetically speaking, if I configured Platform M for specific CC values and assigned a couple of the buttons on the controller to a specific CC that Bome would recognize as a "bank changer," would it be possible to push a button and have Bome intercept the CC1 value and change it to CC27 for example? Then push a button and have Bome switch it back? If so, that might be the perfect solution for what I am hoping to accomplish...


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## tack (Mar 14, 2017)

storyteller said:


> Just hypothetically speaking, if I configured Platform M for specific CC values and assigned a couple of the buttons on the controller to a specific CC that Bome would recognize as a "bank changer," would it be possible to push a button and have Bome intercept the CC1 value and change it to CC27 for example? Then push a button and have Bome switch it back?


Definitely possible. It's not too different from what I showed in the video, except the buttons I used switched between MIDI channels instead of CC numbers. Same idea though: you have buttons that control the state of the faders.

So, suppose you have button 1 set to bank 1, and button 2 set to bank 2. You could have a translator rule intercept the button 1 event (probably some sort of note-on MIDI event) from the Platform M, which sets a global variable (_gb_, for global bank, say) to 1. Button 2 sets gb=2.

Then have another translator which intercepts fader 1, which sends CC1, say. In this rule, if gb==1, you set the output CC number to 1, and if gb==2, you set the output CC number to 27.


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## storyteller (Mar 14, 2017)

tack said:


> Definitely possible. It's not too different from what I showed in the video, except the buttons I used switched between MIDI channels instead of CC numbers. Same idea though: you have buttons that control the state of the faders.
> 
> So, suppose you have button 1 set to bank 1, and button 2 set to bank 2. You could have a translator rule intercept the button 1 event (probably some sort of note-on MIDI event) from the Platform M, which sets a global variable (_gb_, for global bank, say) to 1. Button 2 sets gb=2.
> 
> Then have another translator which intercepts fader 1, which sends CC1, say. In this rule, if gb==1, you set the output CC number to 1, and if gb==2, you set the output CC number to 27.


Thanks. This might just seal the deal for me.


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## procreative (Mar 15, 2017)

tack said:


> Yep. That video in my previous post is me with the Platform M. Here are some other thoughts.



Oh how I wish your solution would work for Logic Pro X, this is exactly what I have been looking for!


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