# From piano piece to full arrangement



## 5Lives (Apr 18, 2016)

Hi all,

Being a pianist, I find it easy-ish to come up with compositions using the instrument. What I've struggled with is how to expand those out to use more instruments (like the full orchestra). I seem to do just fine if I'm arranging a pop song, but less so for an all instrumental classical piece.

Any resources / tutorials that walk through that arrangement process? I took Thinkspace's Cinematic Orchestration a while back, but didn't find it that helpful. I've watched one of Mike Verta's videos, but I think it was much too high level. How are the Berklee Online courses? Or perhaps getting a tutor?

Cheers all!


----------



## MacTomBie (Apr 19, 2016)

Did you see Mike's video Orchestration 1? I think it was pretty great outlining his workflow, going from piano to arrangement, using very simple terms and rules. I have similar problems as you do, and it helped me think about orchestration a bit simpler than I used to.


----------



## Baron Greuner (Apr 19, 2016)

Full orchestra definitely constitutes more instruments.


----------



## Lassi Tani (Apr 19, 2016)

I'm not an expert, I'm studying this still, I took also Cinematic Orchestration. Did you read Adler's Orchestration book? That goes much deeper than the course. It has also orchestration examples for each section. This I've found important: Make the instruments play what they are good at, and use their registers well.

I chop arranging roughly like this (experts might do this differently):

1. Divide the piece to parts according to dynamics. E.g. , quiet, loud, very loud etc or a mood could be used too.
2. Decide which instrument/instruments get melody for each part. You can echo the theme too with other instruments. Usually on loud parts, double the melody with other instruments.
3. The melody instruments should be in their best register -> find out the best registers.
4. Decide on each part background instruments, so that the melody is heard. They shouldn't be in their best registers. What they do in the background? Ostinato? Long flowing notes?
5. Decide parts, which get tutti -> use sparingly. I tend to use extreme highs and lows just on tutti, to make them stand out.
6. Fill in crescendos and decrescendos with instruments, such as woodwind/string runs, timpani rolls, brass.

Hardest part is the background for me, because orchestra in the background can do so much more than a piano. There are endless possibilities of different colors and textures with an orchestra.


----------



## Florian_W (Apr 19, 2016)

sekkosiki said:


> Hardest part is the background for me, because orchestra in the background can do so much more than a piano. There are endless possibilities of different colors and textures with an orchestra.



For me, this is the "most" interesting part of composition. I am usually able to get a melody and find the fitting chords.. so the basic composition is there.. but color and texture of the orchestra is, I believe, the most complicated and interesting part.. Any ideas about this specific point?


----------



## InLight-Tone (Apr 19, 2016)

Check out the book "Orchestration A Practical Handbook" by Joseph Wagner and the accompanying workbook as that's exactly what it's about, to train you to take piano material and translate that to full orchestra.
Available here:
https://archive.org/details/orchestrationpra00wagn


----------



## Guy Bacos (Apr 19, 2016)

Rather than going from piano straight to orchestra, try going from piano to 2 pianos or 4 hands, and from those extra parts you'll have a better idea what to do.


----------



## JJP (Apr 19, 2016)

One of the things you'll find about many of the basic orchestration courses and books is that they assume you have mastered the fundamentals of four-part voice-leading and harmony. If you don't have that, definitely start there. Using good voice-leading will make orchestration much easier and more intuitive.

Next, most beginning orchestration courses are basically instrumentation courses (ranges, timbres, mechanics), but don't tell you all that much about how to actually write or adapt for orchestra or other ensembles. This is because the assumption is that you need to understand the instruments before you can properly write for them. The Joseph Wagner book mentioned above assumes you have a basic foundation in instrumentation and only gives a brief overview of each instrument before moving into its chart of adapting keyboard idioms. Where the Wagner book lacks is in developing an understanding of orchestral balance. On the opposite end is Rimsky-Korsakov who seemed sometimes supremely focused on balance in his book. You're probably getting the idea that no one book covers it all. 

One of the greatest tools for learning orchestration is to create piano reductions of other orchestrations. This is how it has been taught for generations. Start with something small like a chamber group. Get the score and a recording and and then arrange it for piano. Try do reduce it to the simplest arrangement possible and remove any unnecessary doublings. (Again, this assumes you understand enough harmony and voice-leading to create a reduction). Since you can't play everything, you will have to leave some things out. This will teach you where the doublings are and how the lead, backgrounds, and counterpoint are voiced in the ensemble. It's a slow process, but you will augment your book learning with hands-on experience and you will learn an huge amount.

Finally, I have always found that writing for smaller ensembles is a great way to learn the basics of orchestration. Orchestrating for woodwind quintet (flute, oboe, clarinet, bassoon, french horn) will teach you mounds about how the winds function as an ensemble. Likewise writing for chamber groups of 20-30 musicians will teach you about balance. Small ensembles with one of each instrument force you to crystalize your ideas and think carefully because you can't cover everything with a big, mushy wall of sound.


----------



## 5Lives (Apr 19, 2016)

Thank you all! Will check out the books you suggested. I took Mike Verta's Orchestration 1, but need to rewatch it. The idea of arranging for piano is a cool way to approach things - sort of the opposite way I've been thinking.


----------



## Saxer (Apr 20, 2016)

Get scores of piano versions of orchestral pieces and compare to the orchestra score. There are endless versions out there of piano comping classical soloists. And vice versa get the orchestral versions of piano pieces like 'Pictures of an exibition'. 
And have a look at jazz standards. There are lots of beautifully arranged versions out there (Joni Mitchel, Barbara Streisand, Natalie Cole, Diana Crall, Harry Connick...) and for every song you will find a piano solo version too.
If you already do pop songs it might be the next step to just add orchestral elements like a string section. Heavily done i.e. in 'Music was my first love' and 'Live and let die'.


----------



## prodigalson (Apr 21, 2016)

If you can read scores then Alexander Publishing has a really good book I enjoy called "How Ravel Orchestrated Mother Goose Suite". It's a really interesting and easily absorbed analysis of Ravel's process in orchestrating this work. As Ravel generally orchestrated from piano to orchestra he includes the full score for each movement and the piano version at the bottom for quick and easy reference. There's even a color coded version of the scores where you can quickly follow where Ravel is putting the melody and accompaniment from the piano arrangment. And as each piece in the suite is relatively short and individually complete, it's easily digestible.


----------



## Florian_W (Apr 22, 2016)

Thanks for this advice! I will check it out


----------



## Vlzmusic (Apr 22, 2016)

There is also an orchestration book by R.J. Miller, which details many of those aspects.


----------



## CathodeRay (May 4, 2016)

I agree with getting some piano rehearsal music, say the Stravinsky ballets, and compare it to the orchestrations. Stravinsky was a master orchestrator. Try The Firebird.


----------



## Dave Connor (May 4, 2016)

Kent Kennan's book on Orchestration has excellent piano to groups/orchestra transcriptions and a chapter dedicated to actual piano pieces being orchestrated effectively (which is different from a piano sketch.) You can't go wrong with that compact, clearly laid out book. Sometimes it's easier to go with a book like that than a big huge bible – not to say the bigger books don't have their purpose as well.


----------

