# "getting it" John William scores



## gsilbers (Mar 10, 2012)

there was a forum post that has been hunting me for a long while... ~o) 
i think it was one of the mikes from cinesamples... (whomever really)
but ive read it before when someone says.. they study william scores and they finally "get it". 
i have several of his scores and follow it and study a little but im not "getting" anything besides how good he is. 

so wondering for those who understand what im talking about to expand on this?


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## bryla (Mar 10, 2012)

it was a thread about how to obtain film scores. One of the Mike's argued against studying all the classical maestros and just studying Williams. What they did was doing piano reductions of his scores, and they finally 'got it'


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## choc0thrax (Mar 10, 2012)

One of the best things I find is if you can get yourself handwritten sheet music. If the handwriting is bad it sort of forces you to study harder to figure out what notes you're supposed to be looking at. 8)


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## Casey Edwards (Mar 10, 2012)

I would say not just piano reductions, but do an orchestral family reduction. That way you can see usage of the different choirs in the orchestra. So a grand staff for WW's, Brass, perc, and strings. You'll learn a lot just copying.


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## mikebarry (Mar 10, 2012)

I think I posted a pic - do piano reductions from the Signature Editions down to JW sketches @ 4 Piano Staves - 1 Grand Staff per choir.

I never took a single orchestration or composition lesson and this showed me everything I need to know.

I have a classical training but I rarely studied the master classical scores in this detail as I felt the JW scores are more what I needed to know. I still know these works very well but never did piano reductions (with rare exceptions like Baber Adagio.)

I did this everyday in university sophmore year at the library and by Junior year I learnt to compose.


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## robteehan (Mar 10, 2012)

I think I might actually do this, just order a few scores and pick away at reducing them as a morning exercise.


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## dfhagai (Mar 11, 2012)

Any good tips on how to go on piano reducing the hell out of JW?


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## jamwerks (Mar 12, 2012)

mikebarry @ Sun Mar 11 said:


> - do piano reductions from the Signature Editions down to JW sketches @ 4 Piano Staves - 1 Grand Staff per choir.
> 
> I never took a single orchestration or composition lesson and this showed me everything I need to know.



That's a pretty big statement. No doubt lots to learn from JW. We all have our personal mentors, and you probably found there the answers to the musical questions you were asking yourself at the time.

If you do also the same study on some pieces from Stravinsky, Wagner, Ravel & others, I wonder if you would start asking yourself new questions and maybe find new answers?


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## Farkle (Mar 12, 2012)

mikebarry @ Sun Mar 11 said:


> I think I posted a pic - do piano reductions from the Signature Editions down to JW sketches @ 4 Piano Staves - 1 Grand Staff per choir.
> 
> I never took a single orchestration or composition lesson and this showed me everything I need to know.
> 
> ...



Mike B,

I actually started your reduction exercise this year, and it has helped my composing and orchestrating amazingly. I am doing 4-8 bars a day, right now, I'm going through the Smalley Scores, to learn more about Goldsmith and Silvestri.

It is super helpful, I couldn't be happier with what I'm learning. Now, I just need to free up another hour, and get back to EIS with Craig... Garr! 

Mike


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## gsilbers (Mar 12, 2012)

well im glad you guys remember and know what im talking about  

now.. what exactly are you learning from doing this exercise. ?


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## JT (Mar 12, 2012)

gsilbers @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> well im glad you guys remember and know what im talking about
> 
> now.. what exactly are you learning from doing this exercise. ?


One of the things that you'll learn from this is how JW uses doubling. Who doubles who. In unison. In octaves. Muted or not. What colors he likes to combine.


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## Farkle (Mar 12, 2012)

gsilbers @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> well im glad you guys remember and know what im talking about
> 
> now.. what exactly are you learning from doing this exercise. ?



I'm learning (especially from Silvestri), how to voice the brass harmonically, and the strings in octaves to get that larger than life "Main theme" sound.

I'm learning how to do more advanced chord voicings, where (vertically), everything is uncluttered, and not "masked" over by other instruments. I've heard a lot of midi mockup people in the game industry do bad things like mask their octave melodies by the french horn pads.

I'm learning how to articulate, arpeggiate, and figure families of instruments, so that I'm not sitting around with huge large pads of sounds, but have a lighter, more agile sense of motion, that still conveys the harmonic language.

Those are just for starters. To be fair, EIS has unlocked a lot of this mystery for me, and now I'm seeing it manifest in scores. Dammit, I need to get back! 

Mike


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## dfhagai (Mar 12, 2012)

Can someone point me to the link about Mikes reduction excersize\explain what it is please?


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## ed buller (Mar 12, 2012)

i think it's this

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... t=#3600012


The idea being, by breaking it down you get to see who does what quickly. I'm intrigued as to how that helps rather than looking at the score. Maybe it's the act of copying it out kinda rams it home ?

e


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## lee (Mar 12, 2012)

If one doesnt have the score, but does have Melodyne, maybe one could break it down using it. It can even export a midifile.


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## dfhagai (Mar 12, 2012)

Thanks for the link ed


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## JohnG (Mar 12, 2012)

jamwerks @ 12th March 2012 said:


> If you do also the same study on some pieces from Stravinsky, Wagner, Ravel & others, I wonder if you would start asking yourself new questions and maybe find new answers?



While it would be hard to exaggerate JW's mastery of music, jamwerks makes a very good point.

Accepting that, however, for clarity of expression, JW stands in a special class, so one learns something specific to film, I think, from studying his scores.


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## mikebarry (Mar 12, 2012)

I've never put more then a few days of work into study the classics via piano reductions. If you want to learn classical study them, but if you want to learn film voicings for recordings with close microphones study Williams Goldsmith and the like. 

That said I still have sat through just about all the classical scores, headphones and score in hand. I also have spent my whole life playing Mozart and Bach so I might have assimilated a lot that way. But I will stick to my guns saying that you needn't worry about reducing the master works - time will be better spent reducing Hermann or Williams.


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## MoonFlare (Mar 13, 2012)

ed buller @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> i think it's this
> 
> http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... t=#3600012
> 
> ...



By following a lecture you may acquire 10% of a given topic. By doing the accompanying exercises you may learn as much as 85-95%. It's kind of the same thing.

Anyone who reduces scores just by listening?


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## leafInTheWind (Mar 13, 2012)

*Score reduction?*

How does one go about score reduction? Is it taking the separate instruments and collapsing all parts onto a grand staff, then indicating for this note, it's doubled?

Also, would this be something too early for someone only just starting theory? (About 4 months in, working through a chapter on secondary dominant, I see altered scales next).

Thanks!


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## José Herring (Mar 13, 2012)

mikebarry @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> I've never put more then a few days of work into study the classics via piano reductions. If you want to learn classical study them, but if you want to learn film voicings for recordings with close microphones study Williams Goldsmith and the like.
> 
> That said I still have sat through just about all the classical scores, headphones and score in hand. I also have spent my whole life playing Mozart and Bach so I might have assimilated a lot that way. But I will stick to my guns saying that you needn't worry about reducing the master works - time will be better spent reducing Hermann or Williams.



Hmmm, iffy advice.

I heard Spielberg say that a lot of young filmmakers he meets have only studied his films and a couple of others. He said that was a mistake because all he was doing was bad imitation of films that had come before him. He further recommends that film makers studying all the great classic films.

I feel the same about studying just Williams scores. A lot of them are just imitations of other music techniques already done better by other composers. Not to slight JW because, you know, he's great, but still. I learn a lot by studying the stuff that guys like Bernard Herrmann and Goldsmith and Williams studied. Including the books they mention. I've been making leaps and bounds lately doing that. Maybe I'm arrogant. I just can't stand the thought of somebody knowing something that I don't. :mrgreen: 

It's a far tougher road. You'll pit yourself against geniuses writing stuff that is barely comprehensible to mortal man. But, if you digest it at your own pace then the beauty of say working through a book like Hindemith's harmony book will open you up to why guys like Herrmann and Goldsmith and Williams could create what they did. And, would give you the tools to start marking your own territory rather than just knowing what they knew.

Mike I haven't hear your music so I'm commenting in the blind, but I would venture to guess that a lot of what you do is probably and imitation of Williams, who, in all honesty was imitating others and there's probably very little of "Mike Barry" in your own music. Probably good for the pocket book, but is it satisfying as an expressive artist? I ask that in all honesty. I've never had the luxury of being able to sound a whole lot like anybody else, sometimes I think it would be easier. I know it would be easier.


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## Daryl (Mar 13, 2012)

I've studied some of Williams' music, simply because as a jobbing conductor there are always "Film Galas" to conduct. However I would say that most of my orchestration skills were learned by working my way through from Mozart/Beethoven to Richard Strauss and other more contemporary composers. In fact for near perfect orchestral spacing of the symphonic orchestra, you can't do much better than Tschaikovsy. There are things that you can and can't do in film scores, that do or don't work in the concert hall, but if we're talking about orchestras, not electronic scores or sample scores, there are not many exceptions.

D


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## mikebarry (Mar 13, 2012)

Mozart doesn't write for 6 trombones - John Williams does. JW writes for a4 trumpets on a concert C - Tchaikovsky doesn't. You want to learn about how to voice a tightly voiced pusling horn chord study JW. If you want to learn how to mount a diminished huge WW run study john williams. 

If you want to learn film music study film music. If you want to learn how to compose for a concert environment in the late 1800's you can study those guys. 

That theory of sounding like everyone else is silly, the whole game is sounding like everyone else right now. There are 3-4 guys who have thier own sound everyone else is a chameleon able to do everything. 

It comes down to this, I turn on the game I hear epic orchestral music I go to the movies I hear huge soundtrack music - the old days have passed us. Ranges are expanded, players are better, barriers are being broken. 

Never understood the classical argument much (as a classical guy).


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## José Herring (Mar 13, 2012)

mikebarry @ Tue Mar 13 said:


> Mozart doesn't write for 6 trombones - John Williams does. JW writes for a4 trumpets on a concert C - Tchaikovsky doesn't. You want to learn about how to voice a tightly voiced pusling horn chord study JW. If you want to learn how to mount a diminished huge WW run study john williams.
> 
> If you want to learn film music study film music. If you want to learn how to compose for a concert environment in the late 1800's you can study those guys.
> 
> ...



You're too young to be this pessimistic and have this narrow of a view of music.

Jeez, what they do to you at Juilliard? I mean, I managed to make it out with a bit of a rosier attitude than this, and I was severely beaten there.

A lot of the JW techniques you mentioned would actually be better studied if you studied big band music or popular music arrangements pre 1950. That's where JW got those techniques from anyway.

Any rate, I don't feel like debating this topic. Just seems odd to me that somebody that wants to be a composer would have this little regard for the art of composing, especially when he who you studied knows a considerable amount about the subject.


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## mikebarry (Mar 13, 2012)

Its just good to promote the fact that you can be an amazing film composer and not have a classical background. Judging by the A list composers you can tell this is true, very few with a classical background. 



This should never be something to hold oneself back.


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## José Herring (Mar 13, 2012)

mikebarry @ Tue Mar 13 said:


> Its just good to promote the fact that you can be an amazing film composer and not have a classical background. Judging by the A list composers you can tell this is true, very few with a classical background.
> 
> 
> 
> This should never be something to hold oneself back.



Actually take a look again. Most do have some sort of classical training these days. Putting HZ and Danny Elfman aside for now you've got quite a few others that do including:

John Williams
John Debney
Harry Gregson Williams
The Newmans
John Powell
Jablonsky
Brian Tyler
ect..,ect...

I don't think you can limit yourself to "classical" music. That would be a mistake, but I don't think it hurts either.


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## Farkle (Mar 13, 2012)

*Re: Score reduction?*



leafInTheWind @ Tue Mar 13 said:


> How does one go about score reduction? Is it taking the separate instruments and collapsing all parts onto a grand staff, then indicating for this note, it's doubled?
> 
> Also, would this be something too early for someone only just starting theory? (About 4 months in, working through a chapter on secondary dominant, I see altered scales next).
> 
> Thanks!



You basically hit it on the head. There are some variations on how to score reduce, but that's pretty much the way I do it. 

I have a variation of Mike P's way. I use three staves per instrument family (Strings, Perc, Winds, Brass), and I compress each section of the family (Tpts, Hns, Tbs, Tbas) into their own "stem up" or "stem down" group. This way, if I see on the full score, one french horn repeating a C, one repeating an E, and one repeating a G, I'll compress it to a repeated C major chord, and see where it "fits" in the vertical registry.

Personally, when I'm score reducing, I try NOT to put "+Vlas, 8vb", or "Vlns 1, 8va" in the score. I try to actually write it in the octaves. Although it makes my score reduction a bit cluttered sometimes, I feel like it helps show me the "stackings" of doublings, and how to visualize the big film sound.

Incidentally, legend has it that Wagner transcribed Beethoven's 9th (and possibly other of his symphonies) note-for-note to learn and understand the craft of voicing, etc. Seems to have worked.  

Couldn't tell you whether you've had enough theory to make it worthwhile... why not try to transcribe/reduce 4 bars a day for a couple of weeks and see?

Mike


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## bryla (Mar 13, 2012)

Not all film music is huge... Speaking from Europe, I don't understand why not learn the history of orchestration, as you would study the history of what it is you're doing. Studying John Williams IS great, but the soundtracks are manipulated and mixed in a very different way to how it might sound unamplified (JW less but the more with other composers) so if you want to learn how the orchestra will play when you're there, there is a lot to learn from those who wrote to concerts - not recordings.


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## bryla (Mar 13, 2012)

mikebarry @ Tue Mar 13 said:


> Mozart doesn't write for 6 trombones - John Williams does. JW writes for a4 trumpets on a concert C - Tchaikovsky doesn't. You want to learn about how to voice a tightly voiced pusling horn chord study JW. If you want to learn how to mount a diminished huge WW run study john williams.
> 
> If you want to learn film music study film music. If you want to learn how to compose for a concert environment in the late 1800's you can study those guys.


But what if your budget don't allow 6 trombones and 4 trumpets? Wouldn't it be good to know how to write for a 40 piece orchestra as well?

Film music IS film music and study film music for the sake of film music - that is: how it is applied to the film - study orchestration for the sake of orchestration.

Again, there are films that need a classical touch, romantic touch, impressionistic touch, epic touch etc.... As José recently said: The more feathers you have in your cap....


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## bryla (Mar 13, 2012)

*Re: Score reduction?*



Farkle @ Tue Mar 13 said:


> I have a variation of Mike P's way. I use three staves per instrument family (Strings, Perc, Winds, Brass), and I compress each section of the family (Tpts, Hns, Tbs, Tbas) into their own "stem up" or "stem down" group. This way, if I see on the full score, one french horn repeating a C, one repeating an E, and one repeating a G, I'll compress it to a repeated C major chord, and see where it "fits" in the vertical registry.


Don't know if you also do this, but I'll add that I also write double basses and piccolo in the sounding register.


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## Farkle (Mar 13, 2012)

*Re: Score reduction?*



bryla @ Tue Mar 13 said:


> Farkle @ Tue Mar 13 said:
> 
> 
> > I have a variation of Mike P's way. I use three staves per instrument family (Strings, Perc, Winds, Brass), and I compress each section of the family (Tpts, Hns, Tbs, Tbas) into their own "stem up" or "stem down" group. This way, if I see on the full score, one french horn repeating a C, one repeating an E, and one repeating a G, I'll compress it to a repeated C major chord, and see where it "fits" in the vertical registry.
> ...



Ah, yes, Bryla, I definitely do that as well. It makes a lot of sense for me to see Dbl Basses and Cellos locked in octaves, and hear that "big bass" sound coming from the film score. So, unless my score is super crowded, I try to write double basses and piccolo at their sounding pitch.

Mike


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## adg21 (Mar 13, 2012)

So to clarify how exactly does John Williams sketch his orchestrations? 4 piano staves - 1 for each family?


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## MikeH (Mar 13, 2012)

from DRACULA:

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/3707/johnwilliamsdraculaendt.jpg (http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/3707 ... laendt.jpg)


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## adg21 (Mar 13, 2012)

So he uses 8 staves but flexibly


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## David Story (Mar 13, 2012)

Transcriptions, reductions and takedowns are helpful and can be fun. Part of lifelong study. Sometimes even simple music can get complex when packed into a few staves. 

This is a fun piece that's less complex than a JW theme. But even at 6 staves is getting a bit crowded. Is the reduction that much easier to follow? (excuse any errors, did this quick for you)

Like Mike and Bryla, I keep the choirs on separate systems so I can see what's going on at a glance. But If I have a full score, it's pretty much the same kind of glance at 8 staves as 40. And if the parts are on the same staff, eg Horn 1,3 next to Horn 2,4; it's faster to just read the score and not merge it. At least after a lot of practice 

BTW, many composers use 8 line sketch paper, it's about the fast way on paper. And works well for composing when you have a team to do mockups.


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## ed buller (Mar 14, 2012)

Ok that looks tidy and easy to read but what is what? do you not mark the instruments too ?

ed


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## Peter Alexander (Apr 2, 2012)

A few thoughts. 

First, Writing For Strings goes into great detail about score analysis including understanding how to size an orchestra so it balances.
http://alexanderpublishing.com/Products/New-Writing-For-Strings--Expanded-Complete-Edition__AU-WFS-Home-spc-Study-Complete.aspx (http://alexanderpublishing.com/Products ... plete.aspx)

And of course we have the JW scores, too.
http://alexanderpublishing.com/Departments/Composing-and-Film-Scoring/John-Williams-Study-Scores.aspx (http://alexanderpublishing.com/Departme ... cores.aspx)

On a personal note, whenever I see the phrase "classical education" as applied to music I really do just want to vomit. For me, "classical education" reeks odiously of academia and academic thinking which is rarely results driven in its training approach. Classical musical education is about history and easy-to-grade homework assignments. It is not about skill acquisition and development. 

Having a solid harmonic foundation lets you move in any writing direction you want because you command the language. Is that classical? Gosh I hope not!

Is understanding counterpoint the way Goldsmith applied it classical? Gosh I hope not!

I can't speak for the A-list of today, but yesterday's A-list contained complete composers, some of whom went to school, but most of whom learned through self study, writing, and private lessons. 

Goldsmith dropped out of high school. Mancini dropped out of Juilliard. Though their sound was radically different, they studied privately with Ernst Krenek and Mario Castelnuovo Tedesco. Others studied privately with Schoenberg, Nadia Boulanger when she came to Santa Barbara after WWII and also in Paris. Others went to Paris and studied with Charles Koechlin (Lalo Schifrin) and Darius Milhaud (Burt Bacharach, Jack Smalley). 

JW's Bio
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Williams

"While skilled in a variety of 20th century compositional idioms, Williams' most familiar style may be described as a form of neoromanticism,[6] inspired by the same large-scale orchestral music of the late 19th century—especially the compositions of Richard Wagner and its concept of leitmotif—that inspired his film music predecessors."

A JW Teacher Bio
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Castelnuovo-Tedesco

Just consider it.


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## dannthr (Apr 3, 2012)

I don't think that there's any value in debating against studying Williams scores.

Study everything, leave no stone unturned, and be voracious in your self-education.

I think that the piano reductions are highly insightful, and it's not as monumental a task as one might think--in fact, most of the time JW is only doing two or three things at once.

But you can't just do the reduction and expect knowledge to leap off the page.

You have to see the reduction as part of your musical journey.

What are the doubling methods within the choir? what are the doubling methods used cross choir? what elements comprise the background, middle-ground, and foreground of the orchestration--and how do those three elements relate to one another, support or juxtapose one another?

You have to engage the question "why" as you reduce otherwise there will be no deduction in your reduction and you will have wasted your time in a mere transposition exercise.


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## Goran (Apr 9, 2012)

bryla @ Sat Mar 10 said:


> One of the Mike's argued against studying all the classical maestros and just studying Williams.



...I most sincerely hope he ment this as a joke...


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