# New Logic Pro 10.7 drops with Spatial Audio support.



## Alex Fraser (Oct 18, 2021)

Kewl.








Final Cut Pro and Logic Pro updated on the new MacBook Pro with M1 Pro; M1 Max


Final Cut Pro delivers huge advances in 8K video performance; Logic Pro features a complete set of tools for creating music in spatial audio.



www.apple.com


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## Dayvi (Oct 18, 2021)

looks promising, but i don't have any surround setup or airpods so i hope there are a lot other features and various fixes in this logic update.


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## gsilbers (Oct 18, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> Kewl.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Seems the workflow remains the same. which was one of the gripes with logic and surround. Everyone still works in stereo and used pro tools for surround becaise it enables better stem routing etc.


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## Alex Fraser (Oct 18, 2021)

I wonder if it will be possible to use normal headphones to mix? They can be used for Apple Music..
My understanding is that the Air Pods provide the "spatial bit" of the Atmos package (i.e responding to the position of your head) but the surround bit is simply binaural at work.

I don't know. Kind of at my limits here on the tech.


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## apollinaire (Oct 18, 2021)

I find it completely and utterly ridiculous that Logic is now only supported in OS 11 and later. I'm still using Catalina (and don't plan on updating soon) and know a lot of folks doing the same. I mean... what the____??!!


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## gst98 (Oct 18, 2021)

Apparently there is a trick to get special audio working on any headphones, which will be necessary for anyone to do a proper mix


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 18, 2021)

apollinaire said:


> I find it completely and utterly ridiculous that Logic is now only supported in OS 11 and later. I'm still using Catalina (and don't plan on updating soon) and know a lot of folks doing the same. I mean... what the____??!!


I agree, but where did you see that?


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## Alex Fraser (Oct 18, 2021)

ka00 said:


> Are there any spatial audio songs in the Apple Music store that have wowed you? Would love a recommendation or two.
> 
> Anything I've listened to just sounded like there was some sort of convolution reverb added and wasn't really an improvement in the listening experience. Instruments seemed to lose clarity and focus.


The Beatles reissues are good. Mainly the classic “recorded with a band” stuff seems to benefit.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 18, 2021)

Requires Big Slur. Boo apple. Lucky for me I have been transitioning over to Digital Performer and this is one of the reasons why. I'm not leaving Catalina any time soon. If I were all into Dolby Atmos maybe I would, but I'm not...so... unless they add some other must-have features under the radar, or fixed one of numerous bugs that we've been complaining about for a long time...this is non-news for me. 

Big Slur is currently the latest and most current version of MacOS...soon to be replaced by Monterrey but apple has definitely tightened up the window, it used to be that you could be several versions behind on MacOS and still run the latest LogicPro, but now you can be only one year behind on MacOS updates...or lose out on LogicPro updates. Whatever works for Apple I guess, but that doesn't work for me. I think they are going to lose some users this way, but we'll see...

Big Slur broke compatibility with some legacy USB devices, including my midi controller, so its not even remotely on my radar now. I'll give Monterrey a whirl in a few weeks to see if its any better in that regard..but honestly...I think this trend is where Cubase and DP start to look a lot more interesting since they provide MUCH better backwards compatibility. I personally don't see why all the buzz about Dolby Atmos for most of us.


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## apollinaire (Oct 18, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> I agree, but where did you see that?


It's on Apple's Logic product page under specs.









Logic Pro


Logic Pro is a complete professional recording studio on the Mac. And it has everything musicians need to go from first note to final master.



www.apple.com


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## IFM (Oct 18, 2021)

Well now I wonder if they've fixed the ultra laggy main window on large templates problem yet.


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## babylonwaves (Oct 18, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> My understanding is that the Air Pods provide the "spatial bit" of the Atmos package (i.e responding to the position of your head) but the surround bit is simply binaural at work.


exactly. Binaural Atmos files work on every headphone.


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## Nimrod7 (Oct 18, 2021)

apollinaire said:


> I find it completely and utterly ridiculous that Logic is now only supported in OS 11 and later. I'm still using Catalina (and don't plan on updating soon) and know a lot of folks doing the same. I mean... what the____??!!


I had a "hunch" that that will be the case a few weeks back.
I backed up everything in a time machine and updated to MacOS 11 Big Sur.
The intention was to roll back if I had issues.

I am happy to report that I had zero issues, with 1800 AU's installed, and some components on the studio being on legacy hardware (like my Universal Audio interface is still Thunderbolt 2 connected with an adapter).

I think the software will be fine, and if you have relatively recent supported hardware, it might be viable and risk-free (well of course back up) to upgrade.


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## Nimrod7 (Oct 18, 2021)

and it's live...


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## jbuhler (Oct 18, 2021)

I'm still on 10.5.1, and now seem to now be locked out of updates until I move to Big Sur. I can't remember if there is a way around that, to upgrade to the highest version supported by Catalina.


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## Alex Fraser (Oct 18, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I'm still on 10.5.1, and now seem to now be locked out of updates until I move to Big Sur. I can't remember if there is a way around that, to upgrade to the highest version supported by Catalina.


Yep. Until this coming Monday at least, you have to be running the latest Mac OS to play with the (latest) Logic. I have a hunch this will come up again at some point on the forum.


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## Marsen (Oct 18, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I'm still on 10.5.1, and now seem to now be locked out of updates until I move to Big Sur. I can't remember if there is a way around that, to upgrade to the highest version supported by Catalina.



I did excactly that, and it is 10.6.3
Although just a week ago, I already forgot how I did it 🤔. Didn't showed up in the app store after updating to Catalina. 
I think I did a google search over Safari and found a link to app store, where it showed up.


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## Alex Fraser (Oct 18, 2021)

That's quite the unexpected facelift. I quite like it. Although, if you were a fan of the black menus..


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## jbuhler (Oct 18, 2021)

Marsen said:


> I did excactly that, and it is 10.6.3
> Although just a week ago, I already forgot how I did it 🤔. Didn't showed up in the app store after updating to Catalina.
> I think I did a google search over Safari and found a link to app store, where it showed up.


Yeah, links to the app store don't work. They just bring up 10.7. I found some disk images and torrents, but can't say I want to run those installers without a better sense of who is providing them.


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## Alex Fraser (Oct 18, 2021)

Can also confirm that all the Atmos/Binaural stuff works with standard cans. At least using the MacBook headphone outs.

There’s a couple of (spatial audio) demo projects included to play with. 

It's...quite something, actually.


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## Marsen (Oct 18, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Yeah, links to the app store don't work. They just bring up 10.7. I found some disk images and torrents, but can't say I want to run those installers without a better sense of who is providing them.


Sorry to hear. Tried to recap, what I did. 
But from my memory, it was something like just google and found.


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## eakwarren (Oct 18, 2021)

The Logic Pro 10.7 release notes shows this update is indeed more than just spacial audio focused. Holy cow! Happy scrolling!








> The Track Inspector now offers separate MIDI input and output port settings


I'm about to download and test, but could this finally be the end of the infamous "midi bottleneck" if we're able to address more than 16 channels at once?


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## Nextmidi (Oct 18, 2021)

The Track Inspector now offers separate MIDI input and output port setting
Sooo can you actually now record different MIDI input ports on different tracks? Just asking for a friend.

(we're gonna test this asap)


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## eakwarren (Oct 18, 2021)

Nextmidi said:


> The Track Inspector now offers separate MIDI input and output port setting
> Sooo can you actually now record different MIDI input ports on different tracks? Just asking for a friend.
> 
> (we're gonna test this asap)


Haha, right?! I'm downloading now and will either be very happy or pissed off later today.


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## Nimrod7 (Oct 18, 2021)

I am on a laptop without any midi devices connected, but seems to be the case indeed...


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 18, 2021)

Nextmidi said:


> The Track Inspector now offers separate MIDI input and output port setting
> Sooo can you actually now record different MIDI input ports on different tracks? Just asking for a friend.
> 
> (we're gonna test this asap)



That will be interesting to find out. That will make a lot of people happy if so.


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## Alex Fraser (Oct 18, 2021)

DMD is improved still. Dragging to the cells is snappier (and confirmed via the support notes) and a long standing performance issue I submitted a couple of times (involving empty cells) appears to be solved.
Although that last one may have just been a corner smoothed on the journey to Apple Silicon.


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## MaxOctane (Oct 18, 2021)

I just tried 10.7 on my 2019 fully-maxed-out MacBook Pro. 

Five Kontakt tracks, and it sends the fans spinning, just like 10.6.

I'm seriously confused how I have such a beefy machine and not have a single Logic project that will run silently.


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## Alex Fraser (Oct 18, 2021)

Nextmidi said:


> The Track Inspector now offers separate MIDI input and output port setting
> Sooo can you actually now record different MIDI input ports on different tracks? Just asking for a friend.
> 
> (we're gonna test this asap)


Yes, if I'm understanding correctly.

The first track only accepts input via the M-Track midi interface, and the second only accepts input from the Oxygen Mini.

If I record enable both tracks and play both keyboards simultaneously, midi is sent and split to the individual tracks.

Is this new, btw? Always thought it was a feature I never bothered to try.


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## eakwarren (Oct 18, 2021)

Nimrod7 said:


> I am on a laptop without any midi devices connected, but seems to be the case indeed...


Dang! Beat me to it. Oh happy day!


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## river angler (Oct 18, 2021)

Dayvi said:


> looks promising, but i don't have any surround setup or airpods so i hope there are a lot other features and various fixes in this logic update.


Will they ever fix the wretched clicks and pops in flex pitch for example!!!...???


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## ReelToLogic (Oct 18, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I'm still on 10.5.1, and now seem to now be locked out of updates until I move to Big Sur. I can't remember if there is a way around that, to upgrade to the highest version supported by Catalina.


I'm on Mojave and I just updated Logic from version 10.4.3 to version 10.5.1 (the latest that will run on Mojave) a couple of days ago. I did some web searching and used the following process:

1) I went to my Applications folder, selected Logic Pro and chose File\Compress Logic Pro to create a back-up zip file of my current version, then moved the resulting zipped file into a folder on a back-up drive.
2) I selected my current Logic Pro App and put it in the trash, then restarted my Mac (important).
3) I opened the App store and clicked on my account name in the bottom left.
4) I clicked on the download symbol next to Logic Pro, and a pop-up window asked me if I wanted to download the latest version that would run on my system. I clicked "yes" and it installed version 10.5.1.


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## Virtuoso (Oct 18, 2021)

Not a fan of the new low contrast UI. I wonder if it looks different in Monterey?


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## proxima (Oct 18, 2021)

Virtuoso said:


> Not a fan of the new low contrast UI. I wonder if it looks different in Monterey?


Hmm overall I like the changes. I think my least favorite is that top left toolbar you show, but the track list looks great. 

But...when will they ditch the skeuomorphic faders?


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## Alex Fraser (Oct 18, 2021)

Virtuoso said:


> Not a fan of the new low contrast UI. I wonder if it looks different in Monterey?


It's the same in Monty.

ES2 and the like are still rocking the '97 look.


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## storyteller (Oct 18, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> The Beatles reissues are good. Mainly the classic “recorded with a band” stuff seems to benefit.


It may not be the same mix as you are talking about, but the recent Beatles release of The Long and Winding Road on Spotify… while perhaps sounding technically better… to me… loses all sense of character and joy compared to the original mix. I’m all for making things sound better, but it made me ask myself “what is better?” I think that needs addressed. A sonic mold doesn’t fit every song. At least that is my thought. Anyway… haven’t listened to the whole album yet. And admittedly, the one song I mentioned does sound technically better… but it loses a lot in the process. I’d potentially say that with a remixed modern song too… so it isn’t just about remixing an old song with new standards. It is about what we consider to be great technically may actually be part of the problem with music in the last 10 years or so…

I’ll add that I am an 80s baby, so I’m not sonically tied to the original Beatles recordings or fandom… Just added for discussion’s sake.


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## charlieclouser (Oct 18, 2021)

storyteller said:


> It may not be the same mix as you are talking about, but the recent Beatles release of The Long and Winding Road on Spotify… while perhaps sounding technically better… to me… loses all sense of character and joy compared to the original mix.


Check out Greg Penny's spatial mix of Glen Campbell's version of the Jimmy Webb classic "Wichita Lineman". Greg played it for me in his Atmos mix room, which was not all that fancy (Dynaudio Air6's all around, just hanging from lighting trusses in a room in an office park) and it was shockingly great. Like, chills down the spine great. Glen singing front and center, surrounded (literally) by the band and orchestra, with the strings in the back and top... amazing. His mixes of Elton John's catalog are similarly fantastic.

Spine-tingling stuff. 

I can't wait to dig into properly mixing spatial inside Logic. Although the Genelec dealer may be happy, my right ass cheek (where my wallet goes) is already starting to sting....


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## jbuhler (Oct 18, 2021)

I don’t know. These spatialized remixes feel an awful lot like colorizing old movies.


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## Ray Sharp (Oct 18, 2021)

User patches and channel strips are broken with Kontakt, they don't recall saved patch/strip names, everything is renamed Kontakt.


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## proxima (Oct 18, 2021)

Ray Sharp said:


> User patches and channel strips are broken with Kontakt, they don't recall saved patch/strip names, everything is renamed Kontakt.


Not seeing that here.


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## jbuhler (Oct 18, 2021)

Ray Sharp said:


> User patches and channel strips are broken with Kontakt, they don't recall saved patch/strip names, everything is renamed Kontakt.


I've had this issue since sometime in 10.4. It's basically made user patches unusable.


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## Tronam (Oct 18, 2021)

Hmm, is this new? It's the first time I've noticed it in a major DAW. Are there others?


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## Alex Fraser (Oct 18, 2021)

Ray Sharp said:


> User patches and channel strips are broken with Kontakt, they don't recall saved patch/strip names, everything is renamed Kontakt.


Sorry Ray. Can’t say I’m seeing this here either. Are you loading from the top “patch level”?


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## Ray Sharp (Oct 19, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I've had this issue since sometime in 10.4. It's basically made user patches unusable.


Was finally working in 10.6.3, now in 10.7 it's back to it's old tricks.


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## babylonwaves (Oct 19, 2021)

Ray Sharp said:


> Was finally working in 10.6.3, now in 10.7 it's back to it's old tricks.


note, that this is not happening here.


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## Cinebient (Oct 19, 2021)

Tronam said:


> Hmm, is this new? It's the first time I've noticed it in a major DAW. Are there others


MultTrackStudio was the first not long ago and I think beside Logic now, there are no others DAW´s yet(?).


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## davidson (Oct 19, 2021)

Virtuoso said:


> Not a fan of the new low contrast UI. I wonder if it looks different in Monterey?


First impressions feel the same, everything's a little harder to make out. I thought the brightness or contrast on my tv had adjusted at first. It'll probably grow on me.


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## Ray Sharp (Oct 19, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> Sorry Ray. Can’t say I’m seeing this here either. Are you loading from the top “patch level”?


Yes, loaded saved user Patches (not Channel Strips) containing Kontakt instruments from the spitfire library, they load fine with the correctly saved name intact, but when I do a save as the track names default to Kontakt. Seems to only happen after a save as.


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## babylonwaves (Oct 19, 2021)

Here are are two great resources for those who want to dive deeper into Atmos and the other 10.7 features:

Groove3 video tutorial on all new 10.7 features:




__





Logic Pro 10.7 & 10.7.5 Updates Explained® - Groove3.com Video Tutorial


Studio guru Eli Krantzberg presents comprehensive video tutorials on Logic Pro 10.7! If you want to quickly get up to speed and take advantage of all the new features and functions available in Logic Pro 10.7, this is the course to watch. Eli takes you step by step through the most salient...




www.groove3.com





Mixing in Dolby Atmos e-book:





Mixing in Dolby Atmos - 1 How it Works







dingdingmusic.com


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## Alex Fraser (Oct 19, 2021)

Ray Sharp said:


> Yes, loaded saved user Patches (not Channel Strips) containing Kontakt instruments from the spitfire library, they load fine with the correctly saved name intact, but when I do a save as the track names default to Kontakt. Seems to only happen after a save as.


Not saying it's not an issue, but I can't replicate this to help. Sorry, Ray. I've occasionally had a track name "snaffle" but not often enough to become a concern and with no obvious pattern.



babylonwaves said:


> Here are are two great resources for those who want to dive deeper into Atmos and the other 10.7 features:
> 
> Groove3 video tutorial on all new 10.7 features:
> 
> ...


Thanks! This is the first time in a long while I'm having to go "back to the drawing board" on something music tech related.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Oct 19, 2021)

babylonwaves said:


> Here are are two great resources for those who want to dive deeper into Atmos and the other 10.7 features:
> 
> Groove3 video tutorial on all new 10.7 features:
> 
> ...


Thanks for doing the work on the Groove3 link. Now I can make use of the free Groove3 access for one year that iZotope gave me for selling them my left kidney


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## storyteller (Oct 19, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Check out Greg Penny's spatial mix of Glen Campbell's version of the Jimmy Webb classic "Wichita Lineman". Greg played it for me in his Atmos mix room, which was not all that fancy (Dynaudio Air6's all around, just hanging from lighting trusses in a room in an office park) and it was shockingly great. Like, chills down the spine great. Glen singing front and center, surrounded (literally) by the band and orchestra, with the strings in the back and top... amazing. His mixes of Elton John's catalog are similarly fantastic.
> 
> Spine-tingling stuff.
> 
> I can't wait to dig into properly mixing spatial inside Logic. Although the Genelec dealer may be happy, my right ass cheek (where my wallet goes) is already starting to sting....


Will do. I really do like the technology and the potential it offers. I'm looking forward to checking it out.


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## Tatu (Oct 19, 2021)

MIDI Transform / Humanize: Can't change the values on the marked section by dragging up/down. Anyone?


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 19, 2021)

Tronam said:


> Hmm, is this new? It's the first time I've noticed it in a major DAW. Are there others?



I’m also curious about the full implications of this. Does this mean midi event list and automation lanes and everything will suddenly have more resolution when enabled? I can’t test any of this because I’m not leaving Catalina any time soon. But I will be curious to hear about it and how it affects the use of plugins when midi2.0 is engaged


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## SupremeFist (Oct 19, 2021)

> It is now possible to convert MIDI regions to Step Sequencer Pattern regions.


Very pleased by this, as it will make it much easier to bring over drum patterns I've worked up first on the Roland MC-101 or TR-6S for further development/arrangement in a track.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 19, 2021)

yea that is definitely a cool feature add.


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## guerrax (Oct 19, 2021)

I'm about to end my 3 months trial period for Logic pro and I wanted to buy it. I saw the 10.7 upgrade but also the price dropped from 229 to 199 Euros... have you noticed ?


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## MusiquedeReve (Oct 19, 2021)

*CAUTION*​
I started a project earlier in the new 10.7 and, as usual, I forgot to set the project key signature and left it at the default: C Major

Upon realizing that I forgot to set it to D Major, I went to the control bar and set it to D Major - every midi note then moved up one whole step in my project

This must be new as Logic has never done this previously - is there a way to turn this option off?


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## Audio Birdi (Oct 19, 2021)

guerrax said:


> I'm about to end my 3 months trial period for Logic pro and I wanted to buy it. I saw the 10.7 upgrade but also the price dropped from 229 to 199 Euros... have you noticed ?


used to be £200, now £175 here in the UK. Wish it was £150 like how it was originally, blamed it on fluctuation in currencies, but it's greed, since it's software and they're based in Ireland here, so don't pay tax lol


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## eakwarren (Oct 20, 2021)

They have implemented some visibility key commands over the last little while. My post about managing track visibility may be helpful.


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## gst98 (Oct 20, 2021)

ka00 said:


> That’s great, Eric! Thanks! So, I see that you can assign up to 32 group show/hide toggle key commands. And you can show/hide all tracks as well as hide empty tracks. And trigger it all with Metagrid. Very good info, thank you!


Is it not 64?


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## Simon Ravn (Oct 20, 2021)

IFM said:


> Well now I wonder if they've fixed the ultra laggy main window on large templates problem yet.


I don't have that problem. So it is not a general issue I guess.

Looks like my favourite long standing bug regarding "Merge/Replace" MIDI recording sadly isn't fixed. No reason to go to Big Sur yet then haha.


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## MusiquedeReve (Oct 20, 2021)

MorphineNoir said:


> *CAUTION*​
> I started a project earlier in the new 10.7 and, as usual, I forgot to set the project key signature and left it at the default: C Major
> 
> Upon realizing that I forgot to set it to D Major, I went to the control bar and set it to D Major - every midi note then moved up one whole step in my project
> ...


I figured it out

In the Inspector window there is a new check box that says "No Transpose" - apparently, leaving it unchecked will transpose the MIDI when you change the project key signature - I had to go in and check the box on every track - then, when I changed the key signature, all MIDI stayed put


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## IFM (Oct 20, 2021)

Simon Ravn said:


> I don't have that problem. So it is not a general issue I guess.
> 
> Looks like my favourite long standing bug regarding "Merge/Replace" MIDI recording sadly isn't fixed. No reason to go to Big Sur yet then haha.


I tested it and it was pretty horrible. It's a MP Cylinder 12 core. Cubase runs like a top but LP just is a mess. This all started some time around Sur but can't pinpoint the exact moment. The M1 iMac is much happier with LP and large track counts on screen it seems, but still not as snappy as when there aren't as many elements on the main window. I might get ambitious and see if a new user on the MP helps but that's another project I don't have time for.


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## Haakond (Oct 20, 2021)

Tatu said:


> MIDI Transform / Humanize: Can't change the values on the marked section by dragging up/down. Anyone?


I got the same problem


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## el-bo (Oct 20, 2021)

Audio Birdi said:


> used to be £200, now £175 here in the UK. Wish it was £150 like how it was originally, blamed it on fluctuation in currencies, but it's greed, since it's software and they're based in Ireland here, so don't pay tax lol


There are a lot of reasons why one might be justified in calling Apple greedy, but seven years of free updates on a 200-quid DAW perhaps ain't gonna be top of that list


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## proxima (Oct 20, 2021)

proxima said:


> Not seeing that here.


OK I take it back. I went into an old saved project and tried to add a track stack, and got all "Kontakt"s. I feel like saved track stacks were already somewhat buggy, it'd be nice to iron these out for those of us who want to use stacks as modular templates.


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## Trevor Meier (Oct 20, 2021)

MaxOctane said:


> I just tried 10.7 on my 2019 fully-maxed-out MacBook Pro.
> 
> Five Kontakt tracks, and it sends the fans spinning, just like 10.6.
> 
> I'm seriously confused how I have such a beefy machine and not have a single Logic project that will run silently.


That’s life with the 2019 16-inch unfortunately… doesn’t really matter what you do, any kind of load and the system fans kick on. PITA… happily about to switch to an M1 Max because of this issue


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## emasters (Oct 20, 2021)

Trevor Meier said:


> That’s life with the 2019 16-inch unfortunately… doesn’t really matter what you do, any kind of load and the system fans kick on. PITA… happily about to switch to an M1 Max because of this issue


I also have a 2019 16 MBP (which I like), but alas, it does get noisy with the fans. Very curious as folks buy and start using the M1 Max MBP's, to see how that goes. Specifically, I'm hesitant as so many developers still don't support M1 native code. Which means, if you want those plugins to show-up in Logic Pro 10.7, you need to be running Logic Pro with Rosetta 2. In that situation, I'm curious if it makes much of a difference Intel versus M1 Max on these new laptops. Clearly, it should be faster, but by how much? In Monday's Apple presentation, I believe they stated 2.5 times faster CPU versus the prior Intel generation of a comparable system (though I suspect that was comparing to M1 native code being executed on the new machine versus using the Rosetta 2 translation layer). No doubt a year from now when developers are going to finish porting to M1 native (as Intel will no longer be supported on new OS releases and thus new computers), I suspect it should make a big difference with performance, heat, etc. But with Rosetta 2 still required for so many of the plugins on the new MBP Max with Logic Pro 10.7, hmmm....


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## marius_dm (Oct 21, 2021)

emasters said:


> Which means, if you want those plugins to show-up in Logic Pro 10.7, you need to be running Logic Pro with Rosetta 2


That seems to be either a misconception or maybe I’m misreading it. The native version of Logic can run non-native plugins just fine through a Rosetta2 bridge. Personally, after getting used to my 13” M1 I could never go back a hot, noisy laptop again.

And by the way, all DAWs except Pro Tools and Cubase are native already. Waves, Toontrack, UVI, Eventide, Fabfilter, Spectrasonics, U-he, Valhalla DSP, etc. are native already.


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## jcrosby (Oct 21, 2021)

marius_dm said:


> That seems to be either a misconception or maybe I’m misreading it. The native version of Logic can run non-native plugins just fine through a Rosetta2 bridge. Personally, after getting used to my 13” M1 I could never go back a hot, noisy laptop again.
> 
> And by the way, all DAWs except Pro Tools and Cubase are native already. Waves, Toontrack, UVI, Eventide, Fabfilter, Spectrasonics, U-he, Valhalla DSP, etc. are native already.


Is there any documentation/discussion/etc you know of about any potential performance hit when running plugins in Rosetta vs native? For example, if you've seen any talk about notable improvements in performance in plugins that have only recently gone native but were originally had to run under rosetta? Or does Logic running rosetta seem to be fairly efficient (perhaps compared to other daws)?

(Outside of knowing what models have been released as AS, I've admittedly been somewhat asleep at the wheel in terms of how rosetta affects performance...)


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## dgburns (Oct 21, 2021)

No Catalina? What the…. not jumping anytime soon. Catalina just settled in.


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## emasters (Oct 21, 2021)

marius_dm said:


> And by the way, all DAWs except Pro Tools and Cubase are native already. Waves, Toontrack, UVI, Eventide, Fabfilter, Spectrasonics, U-he, Valhalla DSP, etc. are native already.


Thanks for the clarification. I saw a YouTube video that showed Logic Pro in M1 native mode, and some of the non M1 ported plugins did not show up. Then running Logic Pro under Rosetta 2, those non M1 ported plugs showed up. Thus the misunderstanding (since I've not done it myself). So if one uses Kontakt to play sample libraries, is there a performance hit since NI has not ported to M1 native yet? I had assumed since at some level the Kontakt Intel code must be mapped at run-time to M1 native code, there would be a performance hit with that process. But perhaps it's negligible?


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## davidson (Oct 21, 2021)

el-bo said:


> There are a lot of reasons why one might be justified in calling Apple greedy, but seven years of free updates on a 200-quid DAW perhaps ain't gonna be top of that list


That's because they know we have to spend the national debt to buy a machine to run it on.


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## el-bo (Oct 21, 2021)

davidson said:


> That's because they know we have to spend the national debt to buy a machine to run it on.


I bought a second-hand 2012 Macbook Pro in 2014, for just over 1100. Add the copy of Logic Pro and I've had more than 7 years worth of music-making for under 200 quid per-year i.e not much more than an HBO subscription.

Of course, you might say that 2nd-hand doesn't count. Fair enough. But that 1100 could now buy me a very powerful new Mac Mini, and I still would likely not have to pay for another copy of Logic for a few years.

I bet that if we polled the amount that non-Logic users had spent on their respective DAW since 2014 that in many cases it would surpass the difference between a Mac and a similarly-spec'd PC.


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## marius_dm (Oct 21, 2021)

ka00 said:


> This same behaviour happens with Studio One, which has native support for Apple Silicon. For example the VEP plugin will not show up in the native version unless you run S1 in Rosetta mode. The plugin itself needs to be re-written to run as a native plugin.


I don't know about VEP (I have it but I'm too lazy to install it), but all my non-native plugins are running in Logic Pro native or Live 11.1 native Beta (the AU versions!).


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## Alex Fraser (Oct 21, 2021)

el-bo said:


> I bought a second-hand 2012 Macbook Pro in 2014, for just over 1100. Add the copy of Logic Pro and I've had more than 7 years worth of music-making for under 200 quid per-year i.e not much more than an HBO subscription.
> 
> Of course, you might say that 2nd-hand doesn't count. Fair enough. But that 1100 could now buy me a very powerful new Mac Mini, and I still would likely not have to pay for another copy of Logic for a few years.
> 
> I bet that if we polled the amount that non-Logic users had spent on their respective DAW since 2014 that in many cases it would surpass the difference between a Mac and a similarly-spec'd PC.


Agree.
Always makes me chuckle when (some) forum folk pile on the “Apple is too expensive” wagon - yet are happy to sink £400 on a string library, used once.


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## marius_dm (Oct 21, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> used once.


That’s optimistic ☺️


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## gst98 (Oct 21, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> Agree.
> Always makes me chuckle when (some) forum folk pile on the “Apple is too expensive” wagon - yet are happy to sink £400 on a string library, used once.


The Dolby atmos plug-in that got integrated into logic even cost more than logic itself does…


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## DanPhaseMusic (Oct 22, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I'm still on 10.5.1, and now seem to now be locked out of updates until I move to Big Sur. I can't remember if there is a way around that, to upgrade to the highest version supported by Catalina.


I’m in the same boat and having looked at it am I wrong in thinking if you update as usual you’ll automatically get the latest update that you’re OS can run ?


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## soundslike72 (Oct 22, 2021)

el-bo said:


> There are a lot of reasons why one might be justified in calling Apple greedy, but seven years of free updates on a 200-quid DAW perhaps ain't gonna be top of that list


I agree. For a bit of historical context, Logic used to cost a lot more, and you would get a lot less. I remember paying around 4 times the current price for Logic Gold (yes, I'm that old ) back in its Emagic days. And that was on a sale and wasn't even the Platinum version. You would have to buy EXS24 seperately, and it wasn't cheap either.

From Wikipedia: _Original copies of Emagic's Logic software retailed for US$699 (equivalent to $1,289 in 2020) and its plugins were $99–$299 apiece before Apple bundled them all together_

Having discontinued the Windows version of Logic, Apple dropped the price of the software considerably. The deal from then on was *pay more for the hardware; get the software cheaper*.

But I do agree on the greediness though, I mean WTF :
https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MM6F3AM/A/polishing-cloth


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## Loïc D (Oct 22, 2021)

soundslike72 said:


> But I do agree on the greediness though, I mean WTF :
> https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MM6F3AM/A/polishing-cloth


It’s the most universal product Apple ever released and it’s working on PC, Mac, tablets, TV, glasses, cars, babies and whatnot.
Stop complaining please


----------



## soundslike72 (Oct 22, 2021)

Loïc D said:


> It’s the most universal product Apple ever released and it’s working on PC, Mac, tablets, TV, glasses, cars, babies and whatnot.
> Stop complaining please


That's a valid point, of course! I stand corrected .


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## babylonwaves (Oct 22, 2021)

Loïc D said:


> It’s the most universal product Apple ever released and it’s working on PC, Mac, tablets, TV, glasses, cars, babies and whatnot.
> Stop complaining please


it's backward compatible (Works on an Apple II!) and you can repair it yourself!


----------



## Pier (Oct 22, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> Requires Big Slur. Boo apple. Lucky for me I have been transitioning over to Digital Performer and this is one of the reasons why. I'm not leaving Catalina any time soon. If I were all into Dolby Atmos maybe I would, but I'm not...so... unless they add some other must-have features under the radar, or fixed one of numerous bugs that we've been complaining about for a long time...this is non-news for me.
> 
> Big Slur is currently the latest and most current version of MacOS...soon to be replaced by Monterrey but apple has definitely tightened up the window, it used to be that you could be several versions behind on MacOS and still run the latest LogicPro, but now you can be only one year behind on MacOS updates...or lose out on LogicPro updates. Whatever works for Apple I guess, but that doesn't work for me. I think they are going to lose some users this way, but we'll see...
> 
> Big Slur broke compatibility with some legacy USB devices, including my midi controller, so its not even remotely on my radar now. I'll give Monterrey a whirl in a few weeks to see if its any better in that regard..but honestly...I think this trend is where Cubase and DP start to look a lot more interesting since they provide MUCH better backwards compatibility. I personally don't see why all the buzz about Dolby Atmos for most of us.


I agree with the sentiment. Windows is generally better in this respect but many devs (Steinberg, Ableton, etc) have dropped support for anything pre Windows 10.

Apple has been imposing these deprecations so fast to transition over to ARM. IMO it could have done this more gracefully, but this is textbook Apple. Move fast, break things, and keep devs perpetually updating their software.

A lot of users and devs are suffering the transition to ARM but I think we're now entering a new stable phase that will last at least 10 years if not more. The Mac is now so advanced in terms of hardware that I think all these troubles will be worth it, at least for the majority of Mac users.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 22, 2021)

Apple Mac stable? NEVER. Are you kidding me? No...Apple will continue changing quickly and drastically for years to come...that's how they sell more computers and iPhones...

Microsoft does a monumentally better job of maintaining backwards compability...its not even a close call. I have here an old PC from 2007 that runs Windows 10 perfectly fine. 

apple is much more of an innovator and the is cool we get new tech...but backwards compatibility has never been their thing and never will be. 

I still prefer running MacOs though. but honestly, I am waiting to see what computer they are going to offer, and I'm pretty much done with LogicPro at this point...so..I have more options..including going back to the un-innovative and sometimes annoying, but very stable MS Windows.


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## el-bo (Oct 22, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> Microsoft does a monumentally better job of maintaining backwards compability...its not even a close call. I have here an old PC from 2007 that runs Windows 10 perfectly fine.


While it's commendable that Microsoft does this, I'm not sure it's fair to expect a company to have to provide for what I can only guess is a very small proportion of the market still running 14-year-old tech. And I'm not even sure it's fair to accuse Apple of being unnecessarily cut-throat in this regard, at least in the last few years. Been looking into the second-hand iPad market recently, and the latest iOS15 is supported on the iPad Air2, which goes back to 2014


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## Pier (Oct 22, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> Apple Mac stable? NEVER. Are you kidding me? No...Apple will continue changing quickly and drastically for years to come...that's how they sell more computers and iPhones...
> 
> Microsoft does a monumentally better job of maintaining backwards compability...its not even a close call. I have here an old PC from 2007 that runs Windows 10 perfectly fine.
> 
> ...


Yeah but I'm referring to stuff like deprecating 32 bits, moving x86 stuff to Rosetta, killing Carbon, etc. These big tectonic changes won't happen again anytime soon.

The transition is not over yet though. OpenGL, Objective C, and Cocoa will be killed in the coming years.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 22, 2021)

Pier said:


> Yeah but I'm referring to stuff like deprecating 32 bits, moving x86 stuff to Rosetta, killing Carbon, etc. These big tectonic changes won't happen again anytime soon.



Says who?




Pier said:


> The transition is not over yet though. OpenGL, Objective C, and Cocoa will be killed in the coming years.



OpenGL has already been officially deprecated.

Apple will ALWAYS do that. that has been there MO for decades. LogicPro can only run on Big Slur, for example... bla bla bla. Apple does this always and will continue doing so...


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## Pier (Oct 22, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> Says who?



Says me 



Dewdman42 said:


> OpenGL has already been officially deprecated.



OpenGL is still available on Big Sur, even on Apple Silicon unlike 32 bits apps, Carbon, etc.



> OpenGL is deprecated, but is available on Apple silicon.








Apple Developer Documentation







developer.apple.com







> Apple will ALWAYS do that. that has been there MO for decades. LogicPro can only run on Big Slur, for example... bla bla bla. Apple does this always and will continue doing so...



I 100% agree Apple has never cared about long term backwards compatibility, but the transition to ARM/universal OS introduced many more drastic changes these past years than is usual for Apple.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 22, 2021)

Pier said:


> I 100% agree Apple has never cared about long term backwards compatibility, but the transition to ARM/universal OS introduced many more drastic changes these past years than is usual for Apple.


The ARM change is a big one, but I do have to say they are handling this transition MUCH better then they handled the Intel transition. So far. 

Back on topic... LogicPro requires Big Slur... They have severely tightened up their lack of backwards compatibility in terms of LogicPro. It used to be able to run on several versions back. Now is only one version back. In my view this is even less acceptable then the ARM transition, which Apple handled as well as possible with Rosetta and many other dev tools in order to support both Intel and Arm through a transition, etc. With LogicPro no attempt to run backwards compatible at all. If you want to ride the LogicPro train...you have to accept the zero-backwards-compatible philosophy, and run always newer hardware with very last version of the MacOS...even if its not entirely working with all your software, etc.. 

In my view this is unacceptable and reason to leave LogicPro behind. Don't get me started about the fact that while introducing Atmosphere and no ability to run it on Catalina or older...they still have not fixed critical bugs related to PDC that have existed for at least a decade and a hot subject everyone is aware of. LogicPro becomes less and less of a professional DAW solution every year. Those are hard words for LogicPro lovers to hear...and there are many things I like about LogicPro too, but this is truth what I am saying.

Apple wants to sell hardware...and they will do whatever the hell they feel like doing to compel their users to buy new hardware, WAY before they should have to. That is their business model...they've been successful at it and will continue to do so... But...the downside is....lack of stability with the software platform constantly being updated in a non backwards compatible way.


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## Pier (Oct 22, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> The ARM change is a big one, but I do have to say they are handling this transition MUCH better then they handled the Intel transition. So far.
> 
> Back on topic... LogicPro requires Big Slur... They have severely tightened up their lack of backwards compatibility in terms of LogicPro. It used to be able to run on several versions back. Now is only one version back. In my view this is even less acceptable then the ARM transition, which Apple handled as well as possible with Rosetta and many other dev tools in order to support both Intel and Arm through a transition, etc. With LogicPro no attempt to run backwards compatible at all. If you want to ride the LogicPro train...you have to accept the zero-backwards-compatible philosophy, and run always newer hardware with very last version of the MacOS...even if its not entirely working with all your software, etc..
> 
> ...


I'm 99% certain the reason the newest Logic is only available on Big Sur is because of the new APIs like Swift UI which were designed from the start for ARM and universal use (Mac, iPhone, iPad, Watch and TV).

Don't get me wrong, I totally understand why some users like yourself are pissed. I let go of Logic a long time ago and then moved my DAW machine to Windows a couple of years ago because I couldn't stand these Apple moves anymore.

But, objectively speaking, the Mac is better now with ARM and the Apple ecosystem is better with universal compatibility (like iOS apps running natively on macOS). All these changes were needed to achieve this. I've felt very negatively about the Mac for many years (check my post history on this forum) but honestly I'm starting to feel optimistic now.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 22, 2021)

Oh I'm not even pissed at all. Just making the observation.... I am happily moving to DP right now. It brings a lot of cool stuff. I will miss Scripter and a few cool LogicPro things, but I feel DP is a more professional quality product than LogicPro; and happy to be moving there. Cubase would also not be out of the question of DP doesn't work out, but so far its really working out. I will still dabble with LogicPro for smaller creative things, its fine.

I am frustrated about some pretty crucial bugs that haven't been fixed though...and now...I have to buy a new computer if I ever want to see it fixed....but....chances are low they are going to fix it anyway...so...(shrug)...

I also don't plan to switch to Windows...its only very slight possibility if Apple completely blows it with their next MacPro ARM box...which we are yet to find out. If they come out with a good box for the right price, I will definitely get one. I love MacOS way more then windows for completely other reasons, mostly having to do with the fact its based on unix, and provides a lot of stuff most people on this forum don't care about...dev tool related, etc. But also I happen to really think CoreAudio is way better then windows....and on the windows side I hate the Windows Registery with an absolute passion... hehehe.


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## babylonwaves (Oct 22, 2021)

I was really looking forward to see comments on 10.7 and not so much this and that in regards to the compatibility of Dewdman's 10 year old computer. But yeah, you can always make a thread your thread on a Friday evening


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 22, 2021)

hey if people respond to my original post with crap I will respond with more crap, like I am responding to your crap right now.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 22, 2021)

Regarding 10.7, my point was and still is..you have to use Big Slur to use it. sorry if you don't approve of my comment. maybe Monterey will work better, I do intend to try it when it is released finally. On yes, my 10 year old perfectly capable computer.


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## Alex Fraser (Oct 22, 2021)

But Big Sur runs on hardware going right back to 2013/2014.

I’d say that’s pretty good? That’s leaving out only the die-hards.

Also, perhaps an unpopular opinion, but Apple hardware and software roadmaps shouldn’t be dictated by third party hardware and software devs. <ducks>


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 22, 2021)

Big Sur also runs on 2010 cMP if you know what you're doing. But BigSur has some problems still...even for people with much newer hardware.....some legacy USB devices, for example, were broken by BigSur because of changes they are making in Cupertino related to the way drivers are handled I guess. My midi controller didn't work on it when I tried it, (IK iRig Keys 2 Pro). It took a lot of vendors a long time to say "go head with Big Sur" and probably there are still some that still haven't. I haven't checked recently.

Maybe Monterey will be better. I definitely plan to try it.


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## bracken (Oct 22, 2021)

Anyone tried the patcher to install big sur on unsupported Mac's? iMac late 2013 for example


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 22, 2021)

I don't know anything about what 2013 folks are doing, but the macrumors forum will have all that info and more... there are probably multiple approaches at this point, because you are essentially turning your iMac into a hackintosh....with different ways to handle it. May not need to be as patched as you might think. Sometimes its just a matter of patching the actual installer, etc. Anyway, check macrumors to find out.

This might be a good place to start: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/macos-11-big-sur-on-unsupported-macs-thread.2242172/


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## SupremeFist (Oct 22, 2021)

Everything I use works on Big Sur just fine, having jumped from Mojave 9 months ago, and it's more stable overall. I'll wait to upgrade Logic as usual till the 10.7.1 release fixes the new bugs they inevitably introduce in any 10.x.0.


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## emasters (Oct 22, 2021)

Big Sur fine here, as well. Though, I don't depend on music for a living -- so more tolerant of OS/developer issues getting fixed over time. Curious to see next week (after Monday's release), what the early adopters with Monterey's release find. So long as Kontakt and some of the core plugins work, I'll likely give it a try (since Logic should be compatible).


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## Alex Fraser (Oct 22, 2021)

I can report that Logic 10.7 is singing along nicely with the Monterey beta.
A little weirdness here and there (the occasional gui glitch) but I’ve got work done and shipped tracks with the combo.

All the Spitfire stuff is fine. A little weird behaviour with Kontakt, but quite possibly something specific to my setup. I didn’t really stop to investigate and blew right past.


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## Pier (Oct 22, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> Everything I use works on Big Sur just fine, having jumped from Mojave 9 months ago, and it's more stable overall.


On my coding iMac I went from High Sierra to Big Sur and it was an improvement overall in performance, stability, network speed, etc.

Generally I think the new UI is an improvement, but there are things like the mobile_ish_ vertical system dialogs that still bother me.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 22, 2021)

I saw lower bench mark scores when I attempted to go from Catalina to BigSur. When the midi controller wasn't working and I was having other odd problems with my elicensor, I just went back to Catalina, so I can only go on Geekbench scores being a little worse under BigSur compared to Catalina.

We'll see how Monterey compares. It will be out in a few days.


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## studioj (Oct 22, 2021)

Does the Logic set ports per track feature update also include virtual plugin ports like VEP? Do those still only show up if we're using the AU3 version? and lastly... do the output port settings show up on AUX tracks, if you're using AUX's as multi output MIDI tracks? 

Also extremely bummed that they killed Catalina support... weary to update my very stable system...


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## RSK (Oct 23, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> Everything I use works on Big Sur just fine,


Same here. Now, can we all start talking about the features in Logic 7?


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## jbuhler (Oct 23, 2021)

DanPhaseMusic said:


> I’m in the same boat and having looked at it am I wrong in thinking if you update as usual you’ll automatically get the latest update that you’re OS can run ?


I don't know. There is no update as usual. App Store tells me I have to have Big Sur to get 10.7. No other option for update. I suspect if I followed the advise of deinstalling Logic and reinstalling it that would solve the issue but that workaround seems extreme and I may just wait until December when I will update to Big Sur. (I did download Big Sur ahead of it being removed by Monterey.)


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 23, 2021)

RSK said:


> Same here. Now, can we all start talking about the features in Logic 7?



What features would you like to discuss perhaps you can suggest something instead of whining about the discourse.

There isn’t that much new in 10.7 honestly, compared to some previous releases. Atmosphere seems to be where they spent most of their time on this one. Some improvements to step sequencer and dmd if you are in to that. The midi track ports might be the biggest change.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 23, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I don't know. There is no update as usual. App Store tells me I have to have Big Sur to get 10.7. No other option for update. I suspect if I followed the advise of deinstalling Logic and reinstalling it that would solve the issue but that workaround seems extreme and I may just wait until December when I will update to Big Sur. (I did download Big Sur ahead of it being removed by Monterey.)



I think you have to remove it to update to 10.6.3. 

I reccomend you try Monterey at that time instead of big slur. Make sure you have your existing drive backed up first


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## jbuhler (Oct 23, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> I think you have to remove it to update to 10.6.3.
> 
> I reccomend you try Monterey at that time instead of big slur. Make sure you have your existing drive backed up first


I’m leery about making the jump all the way to Monterey for fear of broken drivers and such. Big Sur seems stable and almost all software is now certified for it. Maybe I’ll try going to Monterey with one of my other machines and see what if anything breaks.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 23, 2021)

In my view big slur is not stable. I consider it to be one of the macOS versions to avoid. I am hoping they have fixed some of the known issues in Monterey. But you are wise to wait until at least 12.1


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## jbuhler (Oct 23, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> In my view big slur is not stable. I consider it to be one of the macOS versions to avoid. I am hoping they have fixed some of the known issues in Monterey. But you are wise to wait until at least 12.1


Yes, the whole reason I’m still on Logic 10.5.1 was to stay compatible with a computer on Mojave to run old plugins. But it turns out I haven’t had to do that for a year and now I need to upgrade to get the updates for FCP and Motion, and at that point I think it makes sense to move all three computers forward. It maybe that by December Monterey is the better solution for that. For music production I’d be happy to stay where I am, but the improvements to FCP and Motion seem significant.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 23, 2021)

My pov with Apple in general is update only when there are specific features you need and want.


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## Alex Fraser (Oct 23, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> What features would you like to discuss perhaps you can suggest something instead of whining about the discourse.
> 
> There isn’t that much new in 10.7 honestly, compared to some previous releases. Atmosphere seems to be where they spent most of their time on this one. Some improvements to step sequencer and dmd if you are in to that. The midi track ports might be the biggest change.


I’m a big (ab)user of the DMD and can confirm whilst no new features, there have been some nice performance gains here in 10.7. 

The DMD has gone from being a bit of lumbering embarrassment (using Ultrabeat) to a rather sharp tool in present form. Definitely worth another look if you weren’t impressed on initial release.


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## RSK (Oct 23, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> What features would you like to discuss perhaps you can suggest something instead of whining about the discourse.


Who is the one whining?


----------



## Dewdman42 (Oct 23, 2021)

you were. Is there some feature in LogicPro you would like to discuss?


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Oct 24, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> I hate the Windows Registery with an absolute passion... hehehe.


Yep, as Windows Sys Admin, I completely agree. The static system of Windows is a true annoyance. Especially since I am growing in my love for Unix and Linux by the week!


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## Hunter123 (Oct 24, 2021)

Does anyone know if Big Sur is compatible with Akai MPK261 controller? I've seen a listing saying it is with the AkaiMPK61 but isn't that just an older version of the 261?


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## proxima (Oct 24, 2021)

Hunter123 said:


> Does anyone know if Big Sur is compatible with Akai MPK261 controller? I've seen a listing saying it is with the AkaiMPK61 but isn't that just an older version of the 261?


I haven't had any problems with the MPK249, but it's not like there are drivers I install for it.


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## Hunter123 (Oct 24, 2021)

proxima said:


> I haven't had any problems with the MPK249, but it's not like there are drivers I install for it.


That's good news because this website says it's still in testing.

https://inmusicbrands.force.com/aka...ur-and-iOS14-Compatibility-for-Akai-Pro#hard1

What computer are you on? I'm on late 2013' Mac Pro tower


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## proxima (Oct 24, 2021)

Hunter123 said:


> That's good news because this website says it's still in testing.
> 
> https://inmusicbrands.force.com/aka...ur-and-iOS14-Compatibility-for-Akai-Pro#hard1
> 
> What computer are you on? I'm on late 2013' Mac Pro tower


2017 iMac. 

I'm confused by that link - what software is there for the MPK249? I've never installed a driver for it. Googling around some people had trouble with it and Big Sur earlier this year, and they solved it by externally powering the keyboard. But I've never had a problem with the keyboard connected to a powered hub. 

With yearly upgrades, I only worry about my audio interface (slow to update) and VIs. I've never had any trouble with very standard USB-MIDI devices. In an absolute pinch I suspect I could use the MIDI in on my audio interface if one of my keyboards was acting up. I guess Logic also sees my MPK249 as a control surface, but I think I'd be fine if it just saw it as a pure MIDI controller for my purposes. And I suspect that breaking compatibility there would be from an upgrade of Logic than an upgrade of Mac OS X.


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## Hunter123 (Oct 24, 2021)

Yeah I've never installed a driver as well only a usb connection. Hopefully it's fine to just update to big sur.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 24, 2021)

Usb Devices that don’t include a driver use so called “class compliant drivers” that are already included in the operating system. They are generic drivers. For example when was the last time you needed a special manufacturer driver for a usb mouse or keyboard? Only some might ship with an optional vendor driver that does some extra functionality not built into the class compliant driver that is already built into the OS

Many usb midi devices, if not most of them, use class compliant drivers.

The good news is the vendor doesnt have to do anything. The bad news is that if Apple or Microsoft mess up the class compliant driver in some way that it breaks compatibility with some particular device, then the device manufacturer would be helpless to do anything other then tell you their device is not supported by the OS anymore. In some cases they might be able to update their firmware to fix it

If the the Akai didn’t ship their own driver and it stopped working, then it’s not compatible with the class compliant driver provided by the OS any longer.

My understanding is that Big Sur, at least in the first couple updates, had some problems with SOME legacy usb devices. I am unclear on the exact details I only know this has been a recognized issue with some of them. It was an issue with my IK midi controller also. I never got around to trying the last Big Sur update to see if they fixed it at Apple HQ.

If it was working fine before under Big Sur but now it’s not working with latest logicpro, I still place the blame on Big Sur generally. Logicpro generally is using whatever midi devices that the OS presents to it. It could be that the latest logicpro Is somehow conforming to Big Sur api’s more strictly, which is also why it won’t run at all on Catalina, and perhaps the Big Sur way of communicating with your midi controller is now not working right. Could be anything really and very hard to do anything other then contact akai and try to resolve it that way or they might declare your keyboard is not officially supported on Big Sur because perhaps Apple is removing some legacy usb2 support in someway where it works for certain devices but maybe not some older ones that depend on class compliant drivers


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## Hunter123 (Oct 24, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> Usb Devices that don’t include a driver use so called “class compliant drivers” that are already included in the operating system. They are generic drivers. For example when was the last time you needed a special manufacturer driver for a usb mouse or keyboard? Only some might ship with an optional vendor driver that does some extra functionality not built into the class compliant driver that is already built into the OS
> 
> Many usb midi devices, if not most of them, use class compliant drivers.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all the info! I'm not even sure if my akai won't work or not yet I'm just too chicken to try. Best course of action find the latest version of big sur to update.

I've already sent a tech support message to akai to see what they say.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 24, 2021)

Make sure you do a complete Catalina backup and then try Big Sur. Then you always roll back to your backup if it has a problem.


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## DanPhaseMusic (Oct 25, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I don't know. There is no update as usual. App Store tells me I have to have Big Sur to get 10.7. No other option for update. I suspect if I followed the advise of deinstalling Logic and reinstalling it that would solve the issue but that workaround seems extreme and I may just wait until December when I will update to Big Sur. (I did download Big Sur ahead of it being removed by Monterey.)


I’m pretty sure when I looked at the update I was gonna get it said 10.6.3. I’ll look again tomorrow


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## Hunter123 (Oct 25, 2021)

Does anyone even know where I can download Big Sur? The app store says it's unavailable when I click "get"


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## alcorey (Oct 25, 2021)

Hunter123 said:


> Does anyone even know where I can download Big Sur? The app store says it's unavailable when I click "get"


It's available (11.6.1) when I click on GET
Not sure if it matters but I am already on Big Sur vs. 11.2


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## Tronam (Oct 25, 2021)

Hunter123 said:


> Does anyone even know where I can download Big Sur? The app store says it's unavailable when I click "get"


macOS Monterey just released today, so that's probably why the normal method to download isn't working. You could try this site, which direct links to Apple's archived installers: https://mrmacintosh.com/macos-big-sur-full-installer-database-download-directly-from-apple/


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## Hunter123 (Oct 25, 2021)

alcorey said:


> It's available (11.6.1) when I click on GET
> Not sure if it matters but I am already on Big Sur vs. 11.2







This is what mine says


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## Hunter123 (Oct 25, 2021)

Tronam said:


> macOS Monterey just released today, so that's probably why the normal method to download isn't working. You could try this site, which direct links to Apple's archived installers: https://mrmacintosh.com/macos-big-sur-full-installer-database-download-directly-from-apple/


Thanks I'll check it out!


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## alcorey (Oct 25, 2021)

Hunter123 said:


> This is what mine says


I didn't PRESS the "upgrade now" button as I did not want to upgrade - so maybe I just didn't take it far enough  sorry


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## Hunter123 (Oct 25, 2021)

alcorey said:


> I didn't PRESS the "upgrade now" button as I did not want to upgrade - so maybe I just didn't take it far enough  sorry


I just pressed the "get" button and this automatically showed up


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## alcorey (Oct 25, 2021)

Hunter123 said:


> I just pressed the "get" button and this automatically showed up


Curious, what OS are you on now?


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## Tronam (Oct 25, 2021)

Can I interest you in a freshly minted macOS Monterey? What's the worst that could happen?


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## Hunter123 (Oct 25, 2021)

alcorey said:


> Curious, what OS are you on now?


I'm still on Mojave 10.14.6


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## Hunter123 (Oct 25, 2021)

Tronam said:


> Can I interest you in a freshly minted macOS Monterey? What's the worst that could happen?


I'm considering it.


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## Tronam (Oct 25, 2021)

Hunter123 said:


> I'm considering it.


SuperDuper! is free and I highly recommend it:




__





SuperDuper!






www.shirt-pocket.com





This will create a perfect snapshot to fall back to if there's ever a need to return to the Mojave happy place.


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## Alex Fraser (Oct 26, 2021)

Edgar dropping a huge knowledge bomb as always:




__





Logic Pro - What’s New in 10.7







dingdingmusic.com


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## Hunter123 (Oct 28, 2021)

Luckily I have a macbook that i could test Big Sur and Logic 10.7 so I did that. The only hassel was I had to delete a whole bunch of incompatible plugins other wise it wouldn't even load. Other than that my Akai MPK261 was recognized perfectly so no worries about that.


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## Electric Lion (Oct 30, 2021)

Still no folders within folders or movable mixer channels? 🥲


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## Eluxtria (Nov 1, 2021)

Dayvi said:


> looks promising, but i don't have any surround setup or airpods so i hope there are a lot other features and various fixes in this logic update.


FYI — Binaural monitoring of 7.1.4 mixes works with any stereo headphones.


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## Eluxtria (Nov 1, 2021)

gsilbers said:


> Seems the workflow remains the same. which was one of the gripes with logic and surround. Everyone still works in stereo and used pro tools for surround becaise it enables better stem routing etc.


Man, I hope folks aren't making surround mixes from stems. Full multi-track files are a lot easier to use. I'm curious if you could be specific about the missing routing options that stop you from making Atmos mixes in Logic? Previous versions of logic offered bed-only 7.1 mixing tools, but this version offers full atmos for bed + object tracks.


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## Eluxtria (Nov 1, 2021)

gst98 said:


> Apparently there is a trick to get special audio working on any headphones, which will be necessary for anyone to do a proper mix


There's no trick to it, its just a simple trick. You just pick binaural as your monitoring option.


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## Eluxtria (Nov 1, 2021)

river angler said:


> Will they ever fix the wretched clicks and pops in flex pitch for example!!!...???


There were improvements to the Flex Pitch analysis. I'm curious if you still hear as many pops and clicks. Maybe give it a go on a new project.


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## Eluxtria (Nov 1, 2021)

guerrax said:


> I'm about to end my 3 months trial period for Logic pro and I wanted to buy it. I saw the 10.7 upgrade but also the price dropped from 229 to 199 Euros... have you noticed ?


Did you try downloading the new trial?


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## gsilbers (Nov 1, 2021)

Eluxtria said:


> Man, I hope folks aren't making surround mixes from stems. Full multi-track files are a lot easier to use. I'm curious if you could be specific about the missing routing options that stop you from making Atmos mixes in Logic? Previous versions of logic offered bed-only 7.1 mixing tools, but this version offers full atmos for bed + object tracks.



The idea is for post production workflow where you route 8 mono channels to a 5.1 bus (5.0) that goes into a stereo stem. and the same for 8 stereo tracks of music that get routed to a stereo stem and also for foley and also for background fx and also for hard effects. the effects would be combined into a 5.1 stem and into a stereo stem.
At the end of the mix, you hit record and you end up with 5.1 DME, 2.0 DME, 5.1 M&E , 2.0 M&E plust the 5.1 mix and the stereo mix.
with logic is not really ideal or there some extensive environment tweeks. 
Ideally, with atmos, it would be the same but have both a 5.1 and atmos mix be outputted at the same time.

I think logics purpose is not really some deep end post worlflow but more of a direct to youtube with atmos sort of thing. or apple music etc. basically their end game is not a hollywood production which is mainly done in pro tools but everyday joe wanting to get some cool atmos sound.


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## river angler (Nov 1, 2021)

Eluxtria said:


> There were improvements to the Flex Pitch analysis. I'm curious if you still hear as many pops and clicks. Maybe give it a go on a new project.


I haven't moved from 10.48 since it was released so Im not sure how you are suggesting it could be any different...?


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## gst98 (Nov 1, 2021)

gsilbers said:


> The idea is for post production workflow where you route 8 mono channels to a 5.1 bus (5.0) that goes into a stereo stem. and the same for 8 stereo tracks of music that get routed to a stereo stem and also for foley and also for background fx and also for hard effects. the effects would be combined into a 5.1 stem and into a stereo stem.
> At the end of the mix, you hit record and you end up with 5.1 DME, 2.0 DME, 5.1 M&E , 2.0 M&E plust the 5.1 mix and the stereo mix.
> with logic is not really ideal or there some extensive environment tweeks.
> Ideally, with atmos, it would be the same but have both a 5.1 and atmos mix be outputted at the same time.
> ...


How does pro tools do it differently then? What’s better about it’s workflow?


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## Alex Fraser (Nov 1, 2021)

gst98 said:


> How does pro tools do it differently then? What’s better about it’s workflow?


I won’t touch on the workflow (not a pro tools user) but I guess it’s more about the production process. If you’re composing on a commercial project, you’ll hand off your music to the dub stage, at which point the Dolby Atmos shenanigans will happen. Albeit this is based on my (limited) experience.


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## gst98 (Nov 1, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> I won’t touch on the workflow (not a pro tools user) but I guess it’s more about the production process. If you’re composing on a commercial project, you’ll hand off your music to the dub stage, at which point the Dolby Atmos shenanigans will happen. Albeit this is based on my (limited) experience.


Yeah Avid seem to rely on that a lot, and I totally get that it’s just the way things are done and the tools that are in every studio. But for years Pro Tools users have gone on about superior audio editing workflow, but I never really got answer from any of them about how it handles editing any differently to every other DAW


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## gsilbers (Nov 1, 2021)

gst98 said:


> How does pro tools do it differently then? What’s better about it’s workflow?



Maybe one example would be routing the stereo music to only the left and right of the 5.1 surround. Or routing mono of the effects to the m&e center and and other more specific routings.
I think if you search for Charlie closer and 5.1 in logic he does go extensively on this. But don’t know the specifics of logic. I did try and got into a road block into this and didn’t got much into it since logic is not normally associated w post.
There are some people who far give amazing specific long posts about all these issue w logic and surround.


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## gsilbers (Nov 1, 2021)

gst98 said:


> Yeah Avid seem to rely on that a lot, and I totally get that it’s just the way things are done and the tools that are in every studio. But for years Pro Tools users have gone on about superior audio editing workflow, but I never really got answer from any of them about how it handles editing any differently to every other DAW



For me it’s very specific for post that I rather edit in pro tools. For music no way. 
Keep in mind I do really hate avid/pt.


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## gsilbers (Nov 1, 2021)

Eluxtria said:


> FYI — Binaural monitoring of 7.1.4 mixes works with any stereo headphones.



Ive heard mix reviews about this. 
Some say it’s cool but others say normal songs upmix sound strange


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## gst98 (Nov 1, 2021)

gsilbers said:


> Maybe one example would be routing the stereo music to only the left and right of the 5.1 surround. Or routing mono of the effects to the m&e center and and other more specific routings.
> I think if you search for Charlie closer and 5.1 in logic he does go extensively on this. But don’t know the specifics of logic. I did try and got into a road block into this and didn’t got much into it since logic is not normally associated w post.
> There are some people who far give amazing specific long posts about all these issue w logic and surround.





gsilbers said:


> Ive heard mix reviews about this.
> Some say it’s cool but others say normal songs upmix sound strange


Thanks for the insight on both!


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## Alex Fraser (Nov 9, 2021)

Nearly an hour of in-depth info on atmos and Logic.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Dec 8, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> Make sure you do a complete Catalina backup and then try Big Sur. Then you always roll back to your backup if it has a problem.


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## AEF (Dec 8, 2021)

10.7.1 Has screwed up negative track delay. Total nightmare right now for me.


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## alcorey (Dec 9, 2021)

Can Logic record the audio output of my Mac?


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## Trensharo (Dec 14, 2021)

Pier said:


> I'm 99% certain the reason the newest Logic is only available on Big Sur is because of the new APIs like Swift UI which were designed from the start for ARM and universal use (Mac, iPhone, iPad, Watch and TV).


Microsoft tried to do this with Vista, but people were still running too many turtle machines and so many apps were designed for Win9x/XP's bad/transitionally bad security model that it led to XP basically lingering on too long.

Apple could force these things through by simply dropping older macs from support, but Microsoft's business model doesn't give them that kind of power.

They're only really trying to do something similar, now, with Windows 11's hardware requirements.

Apple has been doing this for decades, though.

At some point, old stuff has to be deprecated and dropped. Otherwise, it hurts the entire platform as developers will refuse to move the software forwards.

On macOS, developers are more apt to do this, because they know Apple will happily remove things. On Windows, you have developers like MAGIX who will maintain the same 20+ year old code base until it starts to fall apart. Even given the existence of better APIs, they will not invest in moving to them unless forced.

It's why a lot of Windows-only software will not go to macOS. Basically, the same reasons. They'd had to do that same work to be cross platform.


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## galactic orange (Dec 15, 2021)

So how is 10.7.2 running on your system? I’m still on 10.6.3 and wondering if updating is worth the risk of new bugs.


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## wahey73 (Dec 15, 2021)

AEF said:


> 10.7.1 Has screwed up negative track delay. Total nightmare right now for me.


Same here, and I thought I was simply too stupid to figure out. When I digit for example -125ms (for Jaeger) it then displays 0,1 and the sound is anyhow a little off. Any solution for this?


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## mallux (Dec 15, 2021)

AEF said:


> 10.7.1 Has screwed up negative track delay. Total nightmare right now for me.


This seems to be fixed (for me at least) in 10.7.2 - I can happily click & drag or enter precise millisecond values and they don't get rounded.


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## Alex Fraser (Dec 15, 2021)

I have a strange issue with 10.7.2: Smart controls reset to zero when loading patches containing third party AUs. But only most of the time..

I rolled back to an earlier version of Logic to check my sanity, confirming it worked before the update.


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