# EW Voices of Opera...Opinions?



## Parsifal666 (Mar 28, 2019)

Obviously I'm very interested in this.


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## OleJoergensen (Mar 28, 2019)

+ 1 Me as well


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 28, 2019)

I'm really weirded out at how little this has come up here...is it that bad? I realize it's pretty new.


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## ChazC (Mar 28, 2019)

I think a lot of people are waiting for the walk-through video before making observations.


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## AllanH (Mar 28, 2019)

I'm also waiting for a walk-through. The long trailer would suggest an incredible product, unless the trailer primarily showcases per-recorded phrases.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Mar 28, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> I'm really weirded out at how little this has come up here...is it that bad? I realize it's pretty new.



LOL! Me too, there's barely been a peep about it anywhere. I'm going to download it this weekend and try it out.


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## Morodiene (Mar 28, 2019)

It actually sounds pretty good, but I'm sure there has to be a fair amount of tweaking for that. I'm curious to hear other's experiences with it to see how much work is required to get an authentic sound.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 28, 2019)

Morodiene said:


> It actually sounds pretty good, but I'm sure there has to be a fair amount of tweaking for that. I'm curious to hear other's experiences with it to see how much work is required to get an authentic sound.



To be fair, I guess we both know that many of EW's products are like that @Morodiene and HI!


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## Morodiene (Mar 28, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> To be fair, I guess we both know that many of EW's products are like that @Morodiene and HI!


LOL I'd be surprised if it *wasn't*! 

And hello. I've been awol for about a year due to a car accident that messed with me for a while...finally starting to feel normal (for me anyways)!


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## kevthurman (Mar 28, 2019)

The trailer was exciting, but so was the voices of soul one and after a bunch of experimentation with that one it seemed to be basically useless aside from the phrases. I'm getting the opera one will be simar.


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## Audio Birdi (Mar 28, 2019)

A lot of these "Voice(s) of" EW libraries shine with the phrases, with the legato / sustain patches are kinda meh. Still intrigued how it sounds when the walkthrough becomes available.


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## Leandro Gardini (Mar 28, 2019)

I think this video shows a lot about what the library is.



As always, the same strengths and weaknesses of EW style of sampling.


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## J-M (Mar 28, 2019)

Morodiene said:


> LOL I'd be surprised if it *wasn't*!
> 
> And hello. I've been awol for about a year due to a car accident that messed with me for a while...finally starting to feel normal (for me anyways)!



Glad you're okay!


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## kevthurman (Mar 28, 2019)

leogardini said:


> I think this video shows a lot about what the library is.
> 
> 
> 
> As always, the same strengths and weaknesses of EW style of sampling.



Yeah that's exactly what I was expecting. The phrases are really useful but the patches are pretty niche. Very useful either way though.


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## Robert_G (Mar 28, 2019)

Alright.....I've spent a fair time with Voices of Opera...but here is a straight out of the box 'ah' legato comparison. No modulation, no dynamics.....all I did was draw a straight line with the velocities to make it fair. No other programming took place.
I copied the same track onto each instrument and recorded them separately.
Each track had identical programming with the instrument being the default load.

I used the alto for VOR because the music is written in 'G' which is too high for both sopranos...and take my word for it Voices of Opera Soprano (for this piece) sounds better at the alto level anyways.

I threw Realitone Blue in there just for fun and out of the box, you can see how great she is.

Please don't mock the piece....it's just here to show the voices....

In order.

1 Realivox Blue
2 and 3 Voices of Opera Soprano and Tenor
4 and 5 Voices of Rapture Alto and Tenor

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/blue-mp3.19182/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/voicesofoperasoprano-mp3.19183/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/voicesofoperatenor-mp3.19184/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/voicesofrapturealto-mp3.19185/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/voicesofrapturetenor-mp3.19186/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## kevthurman (Mar 28, 2019)

leogardini said:


> I think this video shows a lot about what the library is.
> 
> 
> 
> As always, the same strengths and weaknesses of EW style of sampling.



Now the pop brass is a great example of a genre where that kind of phrase-based library is very very useful.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 28, 2019)

Morodiene said:


> LOL I'd be surprised if it *wasn't*!
> 
> And hello. I've been awol for about a year due to a car accident that messed with me for a while...finally starting to feel normal (for me anyways)!



Morodiene that sounds scary as hell! I'm so glad you're getting well, please accept my wishes toward a full recovery, with much success and happiness ahead.


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## Robert_G (Mar 28, 2019)

From spending time on this, I can tell you the EW Voices of Opera will take a lot of work to make the legatos good. Voices of Rapture legatos are so much simpler to use. And I don't even need to mention 'Blue'. She requires virtually nothing as you can see from my demo....lol.

I did do some further work on all these tracks though....and VOR sounded really great with about 15 minutes of further programming.
Unfortunately, Voices of Opera gives you very little more than CC11 to work with, so after an hour and getting nowhere with the legatos....I gave up.

My conclusion with the Voices of Opera legatos is that if you want to put in hours of work....then it can probably sound decent, but when Blue and VOR require almost no work at all....the choice for me becomes pretty straightforward.


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## Rap-sody (Mar 28, 2019)

leogardini said:


> I think this video shows a lot about what the library is.
> 
> 
> 
> As always, the same strengths and weaknesses of EW style of sampling.



I'm liking what I'm hearing in the video. Will put this one on my list of potential interesting products.


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## Hans-Peter (Mar 28, 2019)

I gave it a try and, to me, it sounded like a library from the 90s. If you are in a nostalgic mood, go for it.

For me nothing (so far) beats VSL Solo Voices.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 28, 2019)

Hans-Peter said:


> I gave it a try and, to me, it sounded like a library from the 90s. If you are in a nostalgic mood, go for it.



Being that EWSCP is still used by many composers I know (people who get paid) and most certainly stands with much of the best out there today, I _*seriously*_ doubt that.

It amuses me to no end when I read how many people underestimate the EWH and Choirs when practically everyone I know still uses them and considers them elite.


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## Johnny (Mar 28, 2019)

With all due respect, and not to high jack the thread : ) Just based on the user comparisons provided, I am wondering if anyone here has stumbled across this little gem? There are no Tenors as of yet, but after buying his French Horn and being completely blown away by the quality? All I can say is that this will for sure be my own personal favorite and soon to be best bang for the buck that I could ever spend on a Solo Opera Soprano. (And again, if you've tried out his French Horn? I suspect exquisite detail, ease of use and hyper-realism for the Female Solo Opera Soprano) https://www.organic-samples.com/organic-voices-vol-1-solo-opera


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 28, 2019)

Johnny said:


> With all due respect, and not to high jack the thread : ) Just based on the user comparisons provided, I am wondering if anyone here has stumbled across this little gem? There are no Tenors as of yet, but after buying his French horn? All I can say is that this will for sure be my own personal favorite and soon to be best bang for the buck that I could ever spend on Solo Opera Sopranos. (And again, if you've tried out his French Horn? I suspect exquisite ease of use and realism for the Female Solo Soprano) https://www.organic-samples.com/organic-voices-vol-1-solo-opera



You're not disrespecting anybody my friend. Interesting!


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## Maxime Luft (Mar 28, 2019)

Johnny said:


> With all due respect, and not to high jack the thread : ) Just based on the user comparisons provided, I am wondering if anyone here has stumbled across this little gem? There are no Tenors as of yet, but after buying his French Horn and being completely blown away by the quality? All I can say is that this will for sure be my own personal favorite and soon to be best bang for the buck that I could ever spend on a Solo Opera Soprano. (And again, if you've tried out his French Horn? I suspect exquisite detail, ease of use and hyper-realism for the Female Solo Opera Soprano) https://www.organic-samples.com/organic-voices-vol-1-solo-opera



Nice sound indeed


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## NYC Composer (Mar 28, 2019)

Johnny said:


> With all due respect, and not to high jack the thread : ) Just based on the user comparisons provided, I am wondering if anyone here has stumbled across this little gem? There are no Tenors as of yet, but after buying his French Horn and being completely blown away by the quality? All I can say is that this will for sure be my own personal favorite and soon to be best bang for the buck that I could ever spend on a Solo Opera Soprano. (And again, if you've tried out his French Horn? I suspect exquisite detail, ease of use and hyper-realism for the Female Solo Opera Soprano) https://www.organic-samples.com/organic-voices-vol-1-solo-opera


Yep, bought it and love it. No words, however.still, very very nice legato.


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## alanb (Mar 28, 2019)

leogardini said:


> I think this video shows a lot about what the library is.
> 
> . . .
> 
> As always, the same strengths and weaknesses of EW style of sampling.




There are so many words for which I'd want to use this library (none of which, at the moment, are liturgical or directly-quoted phrases from Italian libretti or LotR), but can't because of consonants that aren't included.

As it is, I have not yet been able to coax a decent 'hard G' sound, or just a simple "yo" opening syllable, from either EWSC or VotA.

VoOpera does have one staccato syllable beginning with a G, but it's followed by the wrong vowel... _[sigh]_ . . .

I've decided that I no longer have any interest in any vocal library that doesn't come with a fully functional word builder, which includes multisamples of every single vowel, consonant, diphthong/ligature and phoneme necessary to create every English word in the OED — with bonus points if it also includes those necessary to recreate any word in other languages.

With any luck, such a library will present itself before _(i)_ I'm dead, _(ii)_ we blow up the entire world or drown in the ever-rising seas, or _(iii)_ the Sun goes nova and swallows the Earth and all of the other inner planets, whichever comes first.........


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## Hans-Peter (Mar 28, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> Being that EWSCP is still used by many composers I know (people who get paid) and most certainly stands with much of the best out there today, I _*seriously*_ doubt that.
> 
> It amuses me to no end when I read how many people underestimate the EWH and Choirs when practically everyone I know still uses them and considers them elite.




What are you referring to here? The discussion is about VoO and not EWSCP or EWH. We discuss solo voices (specifically Voices of the Opera) rather than choirs.

In fact, I use EWH (also EWSCP) myself and love it. It’s just that VoO does not live up to EWQLs previous offerings nor to the competition - in my humble opinion - which I underlined in my previous post. I wish it was different as I’m subscribed to Composer Cloud and am willing to invest into commercial as tools that mimic the sound of what I will record eventually.

It’s just my opinion ... I’ve been in this game since I turned 13, so I’ve seen the ups and downs of quite a few developers over the years. Nothing stands in the way of EWQL to innovate again in the future. I just can’t see that happening in VoO right now.

But I’m glad you feel entitled to have an opinion ... the feeling is mutual .


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 28, 2019)

alanb said:


> As it is, I have not yet been able to coax a simple "yo" opening syllable, from either EWSC or VotA.
> 
> \..



Oh that sinks it right there.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 28, 2019)

Well hell, I'm getting more and more interested in Realivox Blue.


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## Robert_G (Mar 28, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> Well hell, I'm getting more and more interested in Realivox Blue.



Its really good and if you have ADP dollars you can get it for $79 which is a super deal


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## Morodiene (Mar 28, 2019)

alanb said:


> There are so many words for which I'd want to use this library (none of which, at the moment, are liturgical or directly-quoted phrases from Italian libretti or LotR), but can't because of consonants that aren't included.
> 
> As it is, I have not yet been able to coax a decent 'hard G' sound, or just a simple "yo" opening syllable, from either EWSC or VotA.
> 
> ...


Are you sure? I use EWSC and have no problems have very little problem can with some massaging can with a lot of work get it to say whatever I want.


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## dzilizzi (Mar 28, 2019)

I don't know what it is about the female voice (and maybe I am pickier being a female singer) but rarely do soloists sound good. The Realivox ones are maybe the exception. And there is an operatic soprano in there if I remember correctly. 

The phrases are fine. But the notes run through sounded like the singer could maybe hit the C above middle C and they AutoTuned it up. Really? A soprano should be able to hit high C, unless she is a mezzo, maybe? And that only goes to an A, which should be easy. 

The tenor actually sound almost good. And? I would buy Soundiron's ones before these.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 28, 2019)

EWSCP is, to this day, terrific and as "cutting edge" sounding in overall tone as anything out there. That said, I sure appreciate the five years + it took me to at least convince myself I've mastered it lol!!!

I have to be completely fair, EWSCP has a serious learning curve, and I can completely sympathize with people that want something more out of the box.


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## Sarah De Carlo (Mar 28, 2019)

Hi, I'll try to give my honest opinion as Opera Singer. I had time to try only the 'legato' patch (and sustain, obviously) and some phrases (that, in general, I think very unuseful).
I'm a tenor (what???)  I'm a transgender woman and I kept my natural voice, since it is part of my art and my work. So; I'll start to write about the tenor legato patch...

The voice is not bad (but not exceptional either), but I don't really like the recording dynamic.
Mf is piano, and 'forte' is not 'forte'; it's something near to 'forte' for the first note you touch (sustain patch), from the second (legato) note it becomes a 'mf' or something less. So, forget to use it in a majestic composition/trailer, unless you don't layer it with a powerful choir. The high notes, are too 'opened', after the 'D' (one of the most common problems of tenor voices), so the 'oh' seem an 'ah', too nasal and 'spoggiata' (I don't know how to translate this italian way to define voices). To let you understand, I can say it seems to listen vocalizes more similar to 'falsetto' than a full voice and the voice is not projected forward. I don't know, maybe someone could like this, but I don't think most people aspect this when buy a 'opera singer' library. Maybe could be great for chamber music 
So, No: I don't really like the tenor ah-oh legato patches.

I like the tonal timbre of the soprano voice. Very in tune and I would say with a good technique, but again, I can't understand why to call the two dynamic range 'mf' and 'f', when they are 'p' and 'mf', and there is not near to 'f' in that legato, a part of the first note in some cases.

I'm a great fan of EastWest, but this time I've to say that they need to listen to opera to understand what 'piano' and 'forte' are for a singer. Then, beyond how pleasant and technical the voices can be, it's offensive for opera and opera singer to call a library 'Voice of Opera', just because there are some vibratos and some famous (and unuseful) short famous phrases, when it lacks of a complete dynamic voice range and a 'mf' is presented as an 'f'.
Maybe, the best solution is to use the sustain patch with the script legato, instead of the legato patch (but, ehy... EastWest... for how many libraries we'll need to do this again?). 
I think that there is more 'opera' in 'Voices of Passion/The Empire', than here.

Oh... I can forgive them the fact that the damned High C have not been recorded.
It's really a pain in the :emoji_musical_score::emoji_musical_score::emoji_musical_score:


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## Paul Grymaud (Mar 28, 2019)

Sarah De Carlo said:


> Oh... I can forgive them the fact that the damned High C have not been recorded.



Hi Sarah!
What ! The famous "contre ut" is not sampled ? It's a sacrilege... Del Monaco, Alfredo Kraus, Franco Corelli, please come back ! Do You know my personal opinion ? Human voice is the most complicated instrument and it's quite impossible to transcribe emotions, musicality and reffinement. With all due respect for the developers and the singers who lent their voices.


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## Sarah De Carlo (Mar 28, 2019)

Paul Grymaud said:


> Hi Sarah!
> What ! The famous "contre ut" is not sampled ? It's a sacrilege... Del Monaco, Alfredo Kraus, Franco Corelli, please come back ! Do You know my personal opinion ? Human voice is the most complicated instrument and it's quite impossible to transcribe emotions, musicality and reffinement. With all due respect for the developers and the singers who lent their voices.


Hi Paul.
You're talking to one who, for personal taste, from the mid-19th century onwards, would take away anything on the 'high B', (especially for tenor)


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## Niah2 (Mar 28, 2019)

The famous sampled phrases are really puzzling to me, I don't get it.


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## Paul Grymaud (Mar 28, 2019)

Sarah De Carlo said:


> Hi Paul.
> You're talking to one who, for personal taste, from the mid-19th century onwards, would take away anything on the 'high B', (especially for tenor)



I agree with You ! Personally, I had the opportunity to hear a tenor singing the famous aria from 'La fille du régiment". Too many C4, in full voice...awful (personal opinion). I'd rather sing "Lenski aria" from Eugène Oneguyne or even the role of Don José ("La fleur" but also the superb duet with Micaela) or "Una furtiva Lagrima", for example. There are no C4 but these arias are so beautiful. Years ago, I could sing to D4 (rehearsal) and sometimes I had the impression I was a competitor ! I was probably silly and thru the years I realized that vocal performances (high notes but also volume) have nothing to do with music. I'm satisfied with my Bb3 or occasionally the B3.

Do You know what ? Once, somebody asked me if I would be able to sing the role of Rodolphe... in french ! I tried: "Que cette main est froide, laissez-moi la réchauffer". I started to laugh (I could not sing anymore !!!) and I said Okay, sounds really better in the original version ! Now, "The Messiah", in english or "Die Schöpfung" in German, no problem at all. But how gorgeous it is to sing an opera in italian ! God must be Italian !


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## Jeremy Spencer (Mar 28, 2019)

Niah2 said:


> The famous sampled phrases are really puzzling to me, I don't get it.



I was wondering this myself. Not sure what the main purpose if the library is....yet.


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## AllanH (Mar 28, 2019)

Morodiene said:


> LOL I'd be surprised if it *wasn't*!
> 
> And hello. I've been awol for about a year due to a car accident that messed with me for a while...finally starting to feel normal (for me anyways)!



Good to see you back! I hope you're recovering nicely. Recovery sometimes take a lot longer than one would expect.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Mar 28, 2019)

As the female singer sings a phrase of Puccini's "O mio babbino Caro," I guess I'll have to put up my live version of that using Organic Samples' Solo Opera Legato. What she is singing sounds like nonsense syllables to me, so why not this?



This how this library sounds when I plonk it out live. Imagine what people like you could do with it if you took a little time?


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## alanb (Mar 28, 2019)

Morodiene said:


> Are you sure? I use EWSC and have no problems have very little problem can with some massaging can with a lot of work get it to say whatever I want.




Heh.

'English' and 'Phonetic' weren't cutting it at all. I tried VoTox`......

The 'y' didn't sound right by itself as the lead-off syllable in front of an 'o', so I tried putting an arbitrarily-short 'EE' in front of the 'y'. After circa 17.2 hours of tearfully adjusting each letter's relative timeline length, volume envelope and CC11 envelope, I thought that I had reached something marginally close to a halfway-decent demihemisemi-recognizable "yo" syllable.......

. . . and then I played the same syllable on some different keys and heard something dramatically different, depending upon which note I was playing.

On some notes, the EE segues smoothly into the 'y' so that it actually sounds like a proper 'yo'.

On other notes the 'EE' sounds like an odd percussive blip, separate and preceding the 'y'.

On other notes, I hear a blend of 'EE' and 'ah'.

On still other notes, I hear mostly 'ah'. Little or no trace of the 'EE' or the 'y', never mind the 'o'.

The hell . . . ? ? ?

----------------------------

There is a VoTox for a hard 'g', but it's usually barely audible, and adjusting the volume and CC11 values makes almost no difference (even just using the close mics with no reverb) — on some notes it sounds like it's being 'swallowed' by the singers, and on other notes it's not there at all, I can only hear the VoTox vowel that follows it.

So, for example, 'gEE' will often sound more like just plain 'EE', sometimes with a very brief, weird 'blank space' preceding it (again, it depends upon which note I happen to be pressing).

----------------------------

I was curious about Realivox Blue, and I realize that videos put up by strangers on The Youtubes don't necessarily reflect a given library's actual capabilities. But I sat stoically through the first 1:03 of this "Love Me Tender" recreation, until I heard "Never let me ohhhhhhhhh" and shed tears stronger and heavier than even The King himself could elicit from my cynical, world-weary orbs:



----------------------------

"Amazing . . . place?"



Is a convincing hard 'g' sound really that hard to reproduce?


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## Casiquire (Mar 28, 2019)

The difference between OrganicSamples' inexpensive single patch and the entire EW library is striking.


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## midi-et-quart (Mar 29, 2019)

Casiquire said:


> The difference between OrganicSamples' inexpensive single patch and the entire EW library is striking.



I still use that Organic Samples patch every single time, this single legato technique is much more versatile than I originally thought.

Back to topic: I will try these new voices with the EWCC, even if I don't really get the point to record these solo performances from nearly clichee operas


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## Morodiene (Mar 29, 2019)

alanb said:


> Heh.
> 
> 'English' and 'Phonetic' weren't cutting it at all. I tried VoTox`......
> 
> ...



For choirs, directors will often suggest they sing a "k" instead of a "g" to get a more percussive sound. So "Gloria" turns into "Kloria". I believe I used this trick when working in Votox. Likewise if you are trying to make a "j" or "g" sound like "joy" or "giraffe", then another trick is to use a "ch" sound, so "choy" or "chiraffe" to get more sound out of the consonants.

These are just a couple of examples of things you have to do differently when using SC, and to a trained singer they make some sense. 

And yes, each voice part will need its own adjustments to get as legato a sound as possible. This is the problem you were having with Yo. Use of the portamento and manually playing around the the lengths of the vowels can help too.

You were right to do EE-Oh, which is how that diphthong sounds out. I did this pretty much for every diphthong, and I did everything in VoTox.

This is not a playable sort of thing. Words are just far too complex to just be able to play it in (unless you're just working with preset words). Even after all the work I did, I would then overdub my voice on soprano, alto, and tenor parts for 2-3 times on each part singing in a slightly different sound to put in the mix. This is how I achieved a good legato and a bit more presence to the sound.

But what else is there that can do this but SC with a big choir sound and the ability to use whatever words in whatever language you like?


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## Morodiene (Mar 29, 2019)

AllanH said:


> Good to see you back! I hope you're recovering nicely. Recovery sometimes take a lot longer than one would expect.


Yes, thank you! It really wasn't a huge accident...everyone walked away. But it scrambled my brains a bit as well as messed up my neck and back. After over a year things are getting a bit better.


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## Morodiene (Mar 29, 2019)

TigerTheFrog said:


> As the female singer sings a phrase of Puccini's "O mio babbino Caro," I guess I'll have to put up my live version of that using Organic Samples' Solo Opera Legato. What she is singing sounds like nonsense syllables to me, so why not this?
> 
> 
> 
> This how this library sounds when I plonk it out live. Imagine what people like you could do with it if you took a little time?



Ya, I don't care for the sound of either the EWVO soprano or tenor, but there aren't many opera singers these days that I really like (I'm just too into the old school sound). I like the OS sound here, but words, words words! are so darn important.


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## Maxime Luft (Mar 29, 2019)

Morodiene said:


> I like the OS sound here, but words, words words! are so darn important


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## Reid Rosefelt (Mar 29, 2019)

Morodiene said:


> Ya, I don't care for the sound of either the EWVO soprano or tenor, but there aren't many opera singers these days that I really like (I'm just too into the old school sound). I like the OS sound here, but words, words words! are so darn important.


I get using words in choral libraries, but I think if you want a solo vocal singing lyrics at this point in time, you will not be able to get anywhere near a human being. (Like you!) The technology is not there yet, and, in my opinion, that's a good thing. @Mike Greene could keep adding sounds to Realivox Blue and I'm sure people would pay plenty for them, but I don't think he wants to. 

On the other hand, I like the OS opera library not just because it has an impressive legato (with no sudden leaps in velocity in transitions), but because of its young singer, Ekaterina Mamysheva. If I play the right slow melody with this library, I often feel like I can get real emotion out of it, and that's a tribute to her as well as to the talented people who recorded and scripted this library. Without words, the human voice is just another expressive instrument, like OS's wonderful horn.


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## Morodiene (Mar 29, 2019)

TigerTheFrog said:


> I get using words in choral libraries, but I think if you want a solo vocal singing lyrics at this point in time, you will not be able to get anywhere near a human being. (Like you!) The technology is not there yet, and, in my opinion, that's a good thing. @Mike Greene could keep adding sounds to Realivox Blue and I'm sure people would pay plenty for them, but I don't think he wants to.
> 
> On the other hand, I like the OS opera library not just because it has an impressive legato (with no sudden leaps in velocity in transitions), but because of its young singer, Ekaterina Mamysheva. If I play the right slow melody with this library, I often feel like I can get real emotion out of it, and that's a tribute to her as well as to the talented people who recorded and scripted this library. Without words, the human voice is just another expressive instrument, like OS's wonderful horn.


I know, and I'm picky. So I just sing what I want and record that. But a good tenor is hard to find (every soprano's problem)


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## danbo (Mar 30, 2019)

@douggibson @Wolfie2112 Few will likely use it for opera, unless they're a composer who wants to hear how their composition sounds without paying a million for a production. Should be good for students too in that sense. 

For the rest of us I think the question is how well it works for classically oriented vocal lines. For example I'm composing for a video game at the moment and am working in a Renaissance style to fit the milieu. The examples sound are in an Italian opera style, and the library seems to lean that way because of the two artists. 

Doing a voice sample is incredibly difficult, honestly listening to the comparisons above like from @Robert_G (thanks for that by the way) on a pair of Stax 009 electrostatic headphones shows problems with them all. Roberts point about how easy they are to program is probably the more relevant one.


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## kitekrazy (Mar 30, 2019)

Paul Grymaud said:


> Hi Sarah!
> What ! The famous "contre ut" is not sampled ? It's a sacrilege... Del Monaco, Alfredo Kraus, Franco Corelli, please come back ! Do You know my personal opinion ? Human voice is the most complicated instrument and it's quite impossible to transcribe emotions, musicality and reffinement. With all due respect for the developers and the singers who lent their voices.



So agree. High C's are so different from voice to voice. Alfredo made then sound easy.


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## kitekrazy (Mar 30, 2019)

douggibson said:


> Ouch. Some of the "tone" is nice for individual notes, but once he starts to play a few ----not even close.
> 
> The whole notion of using a sample library for opera so insane to me.
> 
> I mean.....where are you going to find a person with a voice ? Impossible.



Next up is voices like Robert Plant and Sammy Hagar. 

I guess if I had a composition that involves income I would just hire a singer. We have the technology to make anyone sound good.


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## kitekrazy (Mar 30, 2019)

Paul Grymaud said:


> I agree with You ! Personally, I had the opportunity to hear a tenor singing the famous aria from 'La fille du régiment". Too many C4, in full voice...awful (personal opinion). I'd rather sing "Lenski aria" from Eugène Oneguyne or even the role of Don José ("La fleur" but also the superb duet with Micaela) or "Una furtiva Lagrima", for example. There are no C4 but these arias are so beautiful. Years ago, I could sing to D4 (rehearsal) and sometimes I had the impression I was a competitor ! I was probably silly and thru the years I realized that vocal performances (high notes but also volume) have nothing to do with music. I'm satisfied with my Bb3 or occasionally the B3.
> 
> Do You know what ? Once, somebody asked me if I would be able to sing the role of Rodolphe... in french ! I tried: "Que cette main est froide, laissez-moi la réchauffer". I started to laugh (I could not sing anymore !!!) and I said Okay, sounds really better in the original version ! Now, "The Messiah", in english or "Die Schöpfung" in German, no problem at all. But how gorgeous it is to sing an opera in italian ! God must be Italian !



I have Monty Python's attitude of French. Listen to 5 singers sing in French and you have 5 different ways of diction. There's always the rumor that many arias never had high C's (according to Pavarotti Verdi never wrote higher than an A) but where doctored by publishing companies. Una furtiva Lagrima is to me one of the most beautiful arias ever written.


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## Morodiene (Mar 30, 2019)

kitekrazy said:


> I have Monty Python's attitude of French. Listen to 5 singers sing in French and you have 5 different ways of diction. There's always the rumor that many arias never had high C's (according to Pavarotti Verdi never wrote higher than an A) but where doctored by publishing companies. Una furtiva Lagrima is to me one of the most beautiful arias ever written.


And don't forget Verdi tuning (A=432) - which makes a TON of difference in the passaggio, and also in the overall darkness of the sound. High C's are over-rated. For sopranos, they really are for sounding crazy. The High B-flat is the best high note.


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## kitekrazy (Mar 30, 2019)

Morodiene said:


> And don't forget Verdi tuning (A=432) - which makes a TON of difference in the passaggio, and also in the overall darkness of the sound. *High C's are over-rated.* For sopranos, they really are for sounding crazy. *The High B-flat is the best high note. *



There's only one recording of Caruso singing a high C and that is the Faust aria. I always wondered in this Wagner aria, there is one where there is high B-flats was actually written by him.


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## kitekrazy (Mar 30, 2019)

douggibson said:


> And they are lower on the food chain. Ab above that C (min 6th) is about the top of
> standard Opera repetoire. Thomas Ades, has an A (maj 6 above high C) in his Opera, but only 2-3 people can pull that off.
> 
> Offenbach's “Les Contes d'Hoffmann", which still gets performed regularly has the Ab in the doll song.
> I've seen it a few times at the Met.



Back in the 90's there is this band called Steelheart and the dude pulls of a G above tenor high C in a song known as Angel Eyes or Never Let You Go.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 31, 2019)

kitekrazy said:


> Back in the 90's there is this band called Steelheart and the dude pulls of a G above tenor high C in a song known as Angel Eyes or Never Let You Go.



That was falsetto, not true voice. And that goes for a lot of those supersonic rock singers (Plant, Gillan, King Diamond, etc.)...besides guys like Ronnie Dio and Graham Bonnet, who were more chest-pull oriented in technique and rarely took the easy fake-out.

Actually, Dio and Bonnet were supernaturally high for male singers of any stripe (pretty sure Dio hit Eb over C a number of times full voice, while Bonnet hit a few yoweling As)...so they're the exception to the falsettic rule lol.


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## Casiquire (Mar 31, 2019)

High Cs truly are overrated. It's the F above it that should be getting the attention!


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## danbo (Mar 31, 2019)

douggibson said:


> There are so many singers who have remote recording services, that I would use something like that over a library.



Have you done this? Do you have links for any singers who do this? How does the recording work, you would need to pay for a studio too I assume? Costs?



> But..... I get that people get a kick out of the software stuff. The results are better, and takes much less time in my experience.



Well again students and composer cloud - and also $200 is cheaper than any singer you might pay surely. It's all cost, cost cost. Heck, I work in game music, the AAA's are investing in deep learning systems that reliably reproduce spoken lines, so they don't have to pay a voice actor. About half the time or something they'll front live musicians, but not infrequently want it all VI. At the moment working on a indie game which has budget for all sampled.


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## MartinH. (Mar 31, 2019)

danbo said:


> Heck, I work in game music, the AAA's are investing in deep learning systems that reliably reproduce spoken lines, so they don't have to pay a voice actor.



I have trouble imagining that to actually be cheaper on the bottom line, considering the voice actors don't get paid a lot and don't get any royalties. I would imagine this has more to do with "risk mitigation", considering the voice actors went on strike once iirc and tried to get a royalties deal going or something like that. Also some voice actors have in the past leaked names of titles being worked on so they stopped telling some of the VA's what they're actually recording lines for, leading to even worse performances because they aren't properly briefed. Iirc Fallout 4 had a voice actor in it in a not minor role, who was a fan of the series and knew a lot about it, but wasn't told he's recording for Fallout 4, so he somewhat missed the tone that he'd given it otherwise. A sad situation all around. I strongly doubt AI is gonna lead to a better product in the end. If you can point me to any articles or similar about the AI voiceover work, I'd be interested in learning some about the technical details though.


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## Morodiene (Mar 31, 2019)

douggibson said:


> And they are lower on the food chain. Ab above that C (min 6th) is about the top of
> standard Opera repetoire. Thomas Ades, has an A (maj 6 above high C) in his Opera, but only 2-3 people can pull that off.
> 
> Offenbach's “Les Contes d'Hoffmann", which still gets performed regularly has the Ab in the doll song.
> I've seen it a few times at the Met.


But that's not written in the score for Tales. That's just what some sopranos sing. Even if I had the A above high C, I would never sing a piece that required it. There's a reason that great composers didn't write that for the voice - and it's not that they didn't have the people who could do it back then. Just because you *can* do something, doesn't mean you should LOL


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## kitekrazy (Mar 31, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> *That was falsetto, not true voice.* And that goes for a lot of those supersonic rock singers (Plant, Gillan, King Diamond, etc.)...besides guys like Ronnie Dio and Graham Bonnet, who were more chest-pull oriented in technique and rarely took the easy fake-out.
> 
> Actually, Dio and Bonnet were supernaturally high for male singers of any stripe (pretty sure Dio hit Eb over C a number of times full voice, while Bonnet hit a few yoweling As)...so they're the exception to the falsettic rule lol.



Nope. Listen to the song.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 31, 2019)

kitekrazy said:


> Nope. Listen to the song.



I feel kind of embarrassed saying this, but the singer himself said it was falsetto (he's done instructional videos). Or perhaps you're having me on, my friend.

You can hear where his actual tenor leaves and the falsetto comes in, the producer did what most do at the falsetto stage: double or triple the part to make up for the decrease in volume.

Anyone whose produced more than one recording in the Rock genre can tell this....I'll just go on thinking you're having me on, because this shows a radical ignorance of Rock vocal techniques. The difference is obvious, try slowing the recording down maybe. Or take a nap before you listen.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 31, 2019)

"I'll never let you go, so I must go falsetto...
you're the only I want, so I huff some helium,
or else I'll never squeak this high again...."


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## kitekrazy (Mar 31, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> I feel kind of embarrassed saying this, but the singer himself said it was falsetto (he's done instructional videos). Or perhaps you're having me on, my friend.
> 
> You can hear where his actual tenor leaves and the falsetto comes in, the producer did what most do at the falsetto stage: double or triple the part to make up for the decrease in volume.
> 
> Anyone whose produced more than one recording in the Rock genre can tell this....I'll just go on thinking you're having me on, because this shows a radical ignorance of Rock vocal techniques. The difference is obvious, try slowing the recording down maybe. Or take a nap before you listen.



Still it's pretty impressive to hit that in falsetto. Where does he say it's falsetto?


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## Morodiene (Mar 31, 2019)

kitekrazy said:


> Still it's pretty impressive to hit that in falsetto. Where does he say it's falsetto?


Men should be able to sing in falsetto at least an octave above the highest note they sing in full voice. I wasn't sure where in the song it was, and the highest note I heard was a g-flat - was that it? It wasn't falsetto on the pure sense, if that was the note in question, but @Parsifal666 may be using the term a bit more loosely than I do.


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## Breaker (Apr 1, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> That was falsetto, not true voice. And that goes for a lot of those supersonic rock singers (Plant, Gillan, King Diamond, etc.)...besides guys like Ronnie Dio and Graham Bonnet, who were more chest-pull oriented in technique and rarely took the easy fake-out.
> 
> Actually, Dio and Bonnet were supernaturally high for male singers of any stripe (pretty sure Dio hit Eb over C a number of times full voice, while Bonnet hit a few yoweling As)...so they're the exception to the falsettic rule lol.


It's not really that simple. The line between falsetto and head voice is quite blurred with male rock singers who have perfected this technique and that's why people are using terms like "super head voice" and "reinforced falsetto". Plant was the pioneer in this (well, until he ruined his voice somewhere between III and IV) and Steelheart's Miljenko Matijevic uses similar technique to hit the high notes (he goes to B5 in "Love Ain't Easy").

Quite off-topic, but definitely more interesting than EW's Voices of the Opera


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 1, 2019)

kitekrazy said:


> Back in the 90's there is this band called Steelheart and the dude pulls of a G above tenor high C in a song known as Angel Eyes or Never Let You Go.



Ah yes, that's Miljenko Matijevic (also sang for Malmsteen at one point). He also did the vocals for Steel Dragon...the fictional band in the movie Rock Star. He is an amazing singer!


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## Morodiene (Apr 1, 2019)

douggibson said:


> Have listen to Audrey Luna:
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/arts/music/metropolitan-opera-high-note-exterminating-angel.html
> 
> ...



Ya, that's just crazy, and not sure it's a good thing to ask of a soprano to do. You can see this soprano has to constrict to reach the note. You can see her sternomastoid muscles in front (which attach to the sternum) contract. This is not healthy and over time will get worse and cause issues in the rest of her voice.

Whether this is the result of singing a high A, or a faulty technique on her part, it's hard to say. I have a dramatic coloratura student who vocalises up to a high B-flat without this constriction. But knowing that composers like Mozart who had access to singers of this voice type that could most likely sings these pitches did not take advantage of them tells me there is at least very little reason musically to use it in a song.


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## ChazC (Apr 1, 2019)

The walkthrough has been posted:


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## kitekrazy (Apr 1, 2019)

Morodiene said:


> Men should be able to sing in falsetto at least an octave above the highest note they sing in full voice. I wasn't sure where in the song it was, and the highest note I heard was a g-flat - was that it? It wasn't falsetto on the pure sense, if that was the note in question, but @Parsifal666 may be using the term a bit more loosely than I do.



Back in the day when I could sing a high C I doubt I could do an octave above in falsetto. I do not think tenors do not have a good falsetto as baritones.

Yeah that so called falsetto sounds really good from that singer.


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## kitekrazy (Apr 1, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Ah yes, that's Miljenko Matijevic (also sang for Malmsteen at one point). He also did the vocals for Steel Dragon...the fictional band in the movie Rock Star. *He is an amazing singer!*



Ya think! There are some live videos where he's still up there.


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## constaneum (Apr 1, 2019)

douggibson said:


> :emoji_cow:



legato still never improve eh.....


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## kitekrazy (Apr 1, 2019)

Breaker said:


> It's not really that simple. The line between falsetto and head voice is quite blurred with male rock singers who have perfected this technique and that's why people are using terms like "super head voice" and "reinforced falsetto". Plant was the pioneer in this (well, until he ruined his voice somewhere between III and IV) and Steelheart's Miljenko Matijevic uses similar technique to hit the high notes (he goes to B5 in "Love Ain't Easy").
> 
> *Quite off-topic, but definitely more interesting than EW's Voices of the Opera*



True and that's not really knocking their product. Range is overrated. Charlie Pride is a country legend and there's nothing rangy about his performances. The lead singer for the Cult is another guy who just makes a song work.


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## wcreed51 (Apr 1, 2019)

> The walkthrough has been posted:

How weird to demo it with that cheesy electronic sound track...


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## ProfoundSilence (Apr 1, 2019)

If the untrained person can't sing along, then you're writing in a way that relies on someone else's virtuosity to bring life and intensity to your music. I hate to be THAT guy, but I feel like singers are a dime a dozen? It doesn't cost a whole lot to drive to the nearest college/conservatory and offer pizza and some starbucks gift cards to 2-3 singers to sight read your work and nail it in 2-3 takes.

hiring a choir? pssshhh not in this life time, but a single person for an hour or so that doesn't even require equipment to perform the music should be an easy task. Infact plenty of elderly in my area sing for fun, you could visit a church or two on sunday and find a few who might be pushing the life expectancy up, but have a long and rich history of singing under their belt, and are more than interested in working with someone of a different generation. Even better, you might end up getting some really wild tales out of them too for free.

again, if it's in a typically singable range for an untrained person, anyone with any experience should be able to crush it with no real hitch, with the added bonus of being more memorable.



this goes up to like an F? a whole 5th below the infamous C. Still hits like a choo choo train. Infact, I would wager a random person off of the street would only struggle to hit the E and F, and most would be able to hover around the A and D without a hitch.


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## ProfoundSilence (Apr 2, 2019)

douggibson said:


> That was my point earlier in the thread too. Depending on which conservatory you live by, some of them absolutely are amazing. Gives them both experience, and a few meals, and something they can use for their own demos. It would produce a better result.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



if you're writing effective melodies, there should be no issue for a singer(even untrained). I'm simply saying that most of that melody was between two gears, one centered around that D, and the other centered around that A. You'll be mentally prepared for that A on the opening A-F-G-A, and you'll spend a lot of time in that register, but when it goes to the A-C-D you're prepared more for that D region, with the F towards the top end of that. 

as far as octave leaps, or really any leaps - none of those are particularly hard, as long as the note they are leaping to was atleast in the key(although the chord built around it can be whatever you want, as long as the leaping interval isn't something completely out of left field) And this ofcourse assumes you're giving them time to leap, and not trying to make them sing an arpeggio(this isn't yodeling)

some very famous melodies that people sing/hum all the time contain leaps like major 6th(NBC jingle) octave (some where over the rainbow). 

people absolutely have no problem with the star wars main title, which has the following heaps in it:

4th, 5th, and a minor 7th. But it has a very structured and predictable melody, hence effective melody writing is more effective than trying to write for "safe leaps". The most akward part I can remember singing was the F in battle of Jericho by moses Hogan. It's just not easy to prepare yourself, weird spot in the register, loud, and fast. Trying to keep multiple vowel shapes in tune at machine gun speed with power, while still being ready to hit that Ab was rough even if an Ab isn't particularly rough, and an F isn't particularly rough.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 2, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> That was falsetto, not true voice. And that goes for a lot of those supersonic rock singers (Plant, Gillan, King Diamond, etc.)...besides guys like Ronnie Dio and Graham Bonnet, who were more chest-pull oriented in technique and rarely took the easy fake-out.
> 
> Actually, Dio and Bonnet were supernaturally high for male singers of any stripe (pretty sure Dio hit Eb over C a number of times full voice, while Bonnet hit a few yoweling As)...so they're the exception to the falsettic rule lol.


My brother worked for a record company that had King Diamond signed years ago. The singer often sang in falsetto. Plant sang in full voice (though he lost his range VERY quickly) as did Brad Delp of Boston, Geddy Lee of Rush and other unusually high rock tenors. 

A better example of that super head voice/falsetto would be Steve Tyler of Aerosmith singing the high section of “Dream On.”


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## L-A Desire (Apr 2, 2019)

ChazC said:


> The walkthrough has been posted:




Was very excited about it, the walkthrough makes it much less appealing... But it's scary how much closer they are to the human voice than in previous attempts. I'll be waiting!


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## Morodiene (Apr 2, 2019)

ProfoundSilence said:


> If the untrained person can't sing along, then you're writing in a way that relies on someone else's virtuosity to bring life and intensity to your music. I hate to be THAT guy, but I feel like singers are a dime a dozen? It doesn't cost a whole lot to drive to the nearest college/conservatory and offer pizza and some starbucks gift cards to 2-3 singers to sight read your work and nail it in 2-3 takes.
> 
> hiring a choir? pssshhh not in this life time, but a single person for an hour or so that doesn't even require equipment to perform the music should be an easy task. Infact plenty of elderly in my area sing for fun, you could visit a church or two on sunday and find a few who might be pushing the life expectancy up, but have a long and rich history of singing under their belt, and are more than interested in working with someone of a different generation. Even better, you might end up getting some really wild tales out of them too for free.
> 
> ...



Are you kidding? Singing is not all about range. Brahms requiem is _hard_ to sing - tessitura and long lines. Not just anyone can do it, or do it well.

And yes, trained singers are a dime a dozen, and many a voice major would be happy to work on a project for little more than just being a part of something - assuming you don't approach someone going to the top conservatories. And certainly you can find trained older singers that don't sound old, but will have a wealth of musical experience.


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## driscollmusick (Apr 2, 2019)

8dio Jenifer is another great option for "classical" solo soprano with good legato. It's also more versatile, IMO, than the souped-up hardcore opera style. https://8dio.com/instrument/8dio-studio-vocal-series-jenifer-kontakt-vstauaxx/

Voices of Rapture is another decent option, especially if you want the quartet of voices, but the Tenor/Alto voices are much, much better than the Soprano/Bass (I've found it hard to get the bass voice to sound anything more than just goofy)


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## Ashermusic (Apr 2, 2019)

So let me sum it up... a company releases a library of staples for an opera singer and some of you are discussing male rock singers?

"I need a pickup truck, which one is best?" 
"Kawasaki makes a great motorcycle. "


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## lumcas (Apr 2, 2019)

Ashermusic said:


> So let me sum it up... a company releases a library of staples for an opera singer and some of you are discussing male rock singers?
> 
> "I need a pickup truck, which one is best?"
> "Kawasaki makes a great motorcycle. "



Let me guess... it’s probably much more interesting to talk live singers than an average library (judging from the walkthrough)...they’re simply trying to forget what they just heard


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## NYC Composer (Apr 2, 2019)

Sorry, Jay. I know how it upsets you when I stray from linearity. I WILL focus. I WILL. I MUST.


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## Ashermusic (Apr 2, 2019)

NYC Composer said:


> Sorry, Jay. I know how it upsets you when I stray from linearity. I WILL focus. I WILL. I MUST.



Oh look, there's a squirrel.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 2, 2019)

Is it a soprano?


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## Ashermusic (Apr 2, 2019)

NYC Composer said:


> Is it a soprano?



http://www.soundsonline.com/voices-of-opera?l=forums


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## NYC Composer (Apr 2, 2019)

There’s no squirrel. Dashed expectations. 


Actually, a chipmunk could be good ....”AAAAAAALLLVIIIINNNN!”


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## ProfoundSilence (Apr 2, 2019)

Morodiene said:


> Are you kidding? Singing is not all about range. Brahms requiem is _hard_ to sing - tessitura and long lines. Not just anyone can do it, or do it well.


I fear you may have missed the word "along". 

I'd like to like this post, as it seems you'd agree on the availability of young and elder vocalists that tend to be interested in being a part of things - and for now I'll assume you simply misunderstood me when speaking about untrained singers.

Just for clarification, since I know first hand sometimes simply skimming a post without context of what is being replied to can change the meaning of a statement directly.

first statement that might have caused the issue:

"If the untrained person can't sing along" 

the untrained person can sing along to herr lehre doch mich - they'll take breaths when they shouldn't, have poor quality in every area - but they'll be able to hum it on the way home. If the range of the melody you're writing is reasonable in the first place, and is effective melodically - it basically means any serious vocalist you find should have absolutely no problems with tone quality or intonation. This means they can simply focus on recording it well, wont suffer from fatigue as quickly, and generally be well over-prepared to nail the performance. Again though, it's crucial that you read the phrase "can't sing along" rather than imagined "can't sing it".

the second statement that might have derailed you a little:

"f you're writing effective melodies, there should be no issue for a singer(even untrained). I'm simply saying that most of that melody was between two gears, one centered around that D, and the other centered around that A. You'll be mentally prepared for that A on the opening A-F-G-A, and you'll spend a lot of time in that register, but when it goes to the A-C-D you're prepared more for that D region, with the F towards the top end of that."

This was in response to doug talking about passaggio, because I'd said hovered around that D and A - and maybe he's not familiar with the piece, so he might have taken it literally. So when I say it should be no issue, it's simply in reference to note groupings in phrases, making preparation for them reasonably easy as well as most leaps are easy(again, the minor 7th leap in the star wars main title is a perfect example)

Probably would have been safer to just say hovering around that D minor in first inversion, but I try not make things any more complicated than they need to be, so that I don't leave out composers on this forum with less text book knowledge. D and A everyone on this forum can find on a piano... D minor? that's most people - but might lose people at the word inversion. Honestly I feel bad even using intervals, but there's no easier way(im not saying 10 half steps)


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## ProfoundSilence (Apr 4, 2019)

I see where the confusion was, I just gave an example of effective writing in a reasonable range opens up your options for finding a live performer(and as a plus can lead to much catchier melodies as a result)

And yes, I didn't really feel the needs to address the misunderstanding because we both came to the same solution. 

But for the sake of brevity, to clarify my intent in the first place in a less round-about way:
employing reasonable ranges and effective melody writing should make the piece significantly easier to perform, opening up a much larger demographic to find locally, as well as relying on your strength as a composer more than the virtuosity of a vocal performer. The easier and well constructed the melody - the less demanding and easier to coax good intonation and tone quality, and generally a good performance out of a singer.

And one trick I had seen with multiple voice coaches was to trick people into a sound by showing them(or referencing a performer) and telling them to mock it. Sounds silly, but I've literally seen someone who could not seem to sound like a soloist for auditions literally get asked "You know pavarotti?" "yeah..." "okay, pretend you're making fun of him and sing the line" ***over dramatically sings***

"okay now take that down like 2 notches and sing the line. "

It's a quick and dirty method, but if you've got someone who can read music, can sing it - but has no soloist quality, you have a chance of coaxing a passable performance out of someone. It's not going to get them a part in an opera, but you'd be surprised how many tiny things they'll subconsciously do mocking that can translate to actual technique. Won't magically make them have amazing breath support, or anything - but hey, if you're comparing trying to hack a singer into pretending they are an opera singer - it's less un-authentic than a sample library anyways XD


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## Morodiene (Apr 4, 2019)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I fear you may have missed the word "along".
> 
> I'd like to like this post, as it seems you'd agree on the availability of young and elder vocalists that tend to be interested in being a part of things - and for now I'll assume you simply misunderstood me when speaking about untrained singers.
> 
> ...


I did read your post correctly, and I do disagree that an untrained singer should be able to even "sing along". Perhaps what you're talking about is writing idiomatically for the voice, the way Chopin wrote idiomatically for the piano. To play his stuff is very difficult, but it sits well in the hands nonetheless because he understood how to play.

The same can be said for writing for the voice, as you describe here by talking about setting up certain parts like the passaggio. But I would not think an untrained singer could sing along with most arias because I hear untrained singers all the time, and their vocal development is often so far from what's needed to even be able to make a sound on higher pitches that I find your statement a bit unbelievable. Most female voices today have no idea what head voice is and only sing in chest and collapsed unsupported higher notes they call "head voice", and most male voices don't know what chest voice is, singing mostly in head voice. This is all probably due to the fact that most people grow up not hearing good singing, so an untrained voice today is not like untrained voices of previous generations where they at least knew what it should sound like.

At any rate, thank you for your clarification.


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