# Looking for a convolution/cross-synthesis virtual synth



## rsg22 (May 11, 2021)

I’m looking for a synth incorporating cross-synthesis/convolution in its workflow. 

If anyone remembers stand-alone Soundhack from the 90-00’s, with its Convolution function - which I think was based on phase vocoding / FFT’s - that’s what I’m talking about. I found several effect plugins which do this but I’m looking for a synth where you can pull in at least two sources, cross synthesize/convolve them, perhaps run them through other synthesis engines/re-synthesize the result, etc.

Or something like Spitfire’s Phobos but where you can use your own samples.

I’ve experimented a bit with Alchemy’s spectral/“elemental” morphing but I _think_ (could be wrong) that’s based on a different technology.

Searching for something along these lines has been difficult as I’m mostly finding convolution/IR reverb effect plugins, which isn’t what I’m looking for.

Figured if anyone knew of anything along these lines it would be someone here.


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## doctoremmet (May 11, 2021)

I am unaware of a current synth that does this. If there ever is going to be one it will likely be MSoundFactory, but currently it can only do something similar using the MMorph and MConvolution effects. 

Maybe there is a module in the VCV realm? Or a Reaktor ensemble? (Paging @Flintpope)


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## Dirtgrain (May 11, 2021)

I have been hoping that BT Phobos would some day allow one to incorporate one's own samples, but apparently that is not a Spitfire kind of thing to do. Blech. I wonder how many sales they have missed on that one for this limitation.

I, along with many others, have been wanting Izotope to update and improve Iris 2. If they would do this and incorporate morphing convolvers, I'd be all over that (even pay bit synth money for it).


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## doctoremmet (May 11, 2021)

Iris 3 or Padshop 3 would be nice. As said,
my money’s on Melda for now.


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## Flintpope (May 11, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> I am unaware of a current synth that does this. If there ever is going to be one it will likely be MSoundFactory, but currently it can only do something similar using the MMorph and MConvolution effects.
> 
> Maybe there is a module in the VCV realm? Or a Reaktor ensemble? (Paging @Flintpope)


Flintpope paged..

I don't fully understand the convolve/convolute thing but I know that Phaseplant can take, say, a synth source (or it could be a sample or wavetable) and use this to modulate other sources. This could be just plain old FM though. For someone who makes lots of synthy stuff I am remarkably non-technical.

Totally unrelated I hate when you see a macro on a vst that simply says "filter cutoff" or "timbre" for example. We should give the end user something that mystifies them. Maybe that's the beauty of being non-technical but I digress...


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## Flintpope (May 11, 2021)

rsg22 said:


> I’m looking for a synth incorporating cross-synthesis/convolution in its workflow.
> 
> If anyone remembers stand-alone Soundhack from the 90-00’s, with its Convolution function - which I think was based on phase vocoding / FFT’s - that’s what I’m talking about. I found several effect plugins which do this but I’m looking for a synth where you can pull in at least two sources, cross synthesize/convolve them, perhaps run them through other synthesis engines/re-synthesize the result, etc.
> 
> ...


Possibly Phaseplant


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## bill5 (May 13, 2021)

rsg22 said:


> I’m looking for a synth where you can pull in at least two sources, cross synthesize/convolve them, perhaps run them through other synthesis engines/re-synthesize the result, etc.


I don't think that's "convolution," but it is an interesting concept. Iris does let you combine multiple sources (why I bought it), but not re-synthesize etc.


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## jcrosby (May 13, 2021)

rsg22 said:


> I’m looking for a synth incorporating cross-synthesis/convolution in its workflow.
> 
> If anyone remembers stand-alone Soundhack from the 90-00’s, with its Convolution function - which I think was based on phase vocoding / FFT’s - that’s what I’m talking about. I found several effect plugins which do this but I’m looking for a synth where you can pull in at least two sources, cross synthesize/convolve them, perhaps run them through other synthesis engines/re-synthesize the result, etc.
> 
> ...


Phobos is the only thing that does something like this that I'm aware of. But as you point out... No user samples... And hasn't seen any real attention in years :/


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## b_elliott (May 14, 2021)

rsg22 said:


> I’m looking for a synth incorporating cross-synthesis/convolution in its workflow.
> ...
> Or something like Spitfire’s Phobos but where you can use your own samples.


Now that you heard from the guys who'd know, perhaps you'd be interested in my work-around hack. [warning: possibly not in the same ball park].

First is an audio of magpies first singing, then put through Kiloheart's free Snap Heap. [mp3 snippet] You can already see I get a musical result, despite my Free Hand joke. [A full-length version called Three Magpie Stories is on the Member's Composition sub-forum.]

The hack: A 2nd example uses my samples, fed thru a combo of Iris2, Soundtoys, Snap Heap separately routed to two convolution engines Reaverb and Easy Convolver. By experimenting, I got results with multiple IRs loaded inside each engine, also placing the audio item on the engine track as well as sending to the convo engines. [Susanna Sketch a result.]

Clearly a hack, but, it combines samples, IRs and synthesis manipulation.


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## gamma-ut (May 14, 2021)

Kontakt has a convolution engine in its effect chain. However, that does mean it won't do it polyphonically in the way I believe Phobos handles it. But you can at least load the samples into the same lump of software.

There is also Best Service's Galaxy-X which uses the convolution reverb engine in, er, Engine to do the same thing. However, IIRC that has preset convolutions - you can only load source samples and that in itself is a bit of a faff. (Independence does the same thing but that's more or less abandonware at this stage even though Best Service still seems to be funding updates for the Engine version for the moment.)


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## rsg22 (May 14, 2021)

gamma-ut said:


> There is also Best Service's Galaxy-X which uses the convolution reverb engine in, er, Engine to do the same thing. However, IIRC that has preset convolutions - you can only load source samples and that in itself is a bit of a faff. (Independence does the same thing but that's more or less abandonware at this stage even though Best Service still seems to be funding updates for the Engine version for the moment.)


Interesting - Galaxy-X gets pretty close, too bad about its shortcomings. 

For now I'm going to keep using the stand-alone version of Soundhack on my Mojave partition, and continue exploring Alchemy and Iris 2's features to see what I can come up with.

Thanks everyone for your feedback.


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## gsilbers (May 14, 2021)

maybe this helps






Soundmagic Spectral - Michael Norris, Composer


b9 ©2015 Michael NorrisSoundMagic Spectral is a freeware suite of 23 Audio Unit plug-ins that implement real-time spectral processing of sound. This groundbreaking set of effects give you unprecedented control and creativity in the processing of




www.michaelnorris.info










Software - Michael Norris, Composer


Michael Norris — Composer, Developer, Music Theorist




www.michaelnorris.info


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## rsg22 (May 14, 2021)

gsilbers said:


> maybe this helps
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah I have those - cool plugins - but I _think_ they only work on a single sound source as opposed to cross-synthesizing two sources. Also I'm looking for a synth with these features as opposed to an effects plugin, but this is a good reminder to revisit these.


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## Pier (May 15, 2021)

Flintpope said:


> Phaseplant can take, say, a synth source (or it could be a sample or wavetable) and use this to modulate other sources.


Convolution is a complete different process than AM of FM.

I too have been hoping Spitfire will release a version of Phobos where you can load your own samples. I suspect they don't want to open it because of some legal thing with BT.


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## timprebble (May 15, 2021)

I suspect the reason why this is quite rare is due to the demands it places on CPU. In real time it is demanding eg Kyma can achieve this, but uses its own dedicated hardware to achieve it, so the host computer is not loaded down by it. Apart from SoundHack, the first convolution/cross processing app I used was IRCam AudioSculpt, but it is also standalone app & not a real time plugin, for that same reason - it calculates the output, rather than attempting to do those calculations in real time.






AudioSculpt | Ircam Anasynth







anasynth.ircam.fr





But another option: there is nothing stopping you dropping synth sounds into convolution plugins. Years ago I bought an IR set by Canyon Spirit called Sanitarium, and if you listen to the actual IRs they are mostly all synth sounds and are not used to emulate reverbs... IR plugins like Reverberate 3 allows you to load two seperate IRs and apply them in real time with modulation, so this means you can achieve what you want, ie convolve in real time: load any synth audio you like as an IR, feed it with any synth you own... I know its not a 'synth' per se, but it is realtime and can be whatever you feed it with.









Reverberate 3 - LiquidSonics


Modulated True-Stereo Convolution Reverb bringing your IR captures to life; use Lexicon, AMS, Bricasti and more reverb legends to life.




www.liquidsonics.com






I'm old enough to remember when our music computers did not have enough power to even use a single convolution plugin in real time, so maybe it just requires patience. Like you I would love a plugin that could do real time convolution and cross synthesis, similarly to how synths like Serum currently use Wavetables, except if those wavetables could be audio of any duration... Its not a hard ask theoretically eg iZotope could create something like this, but there is a reason they don't or currently can't.... and I think it is the processing power involved.


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## wilifordmusic (May 15, 2021)

Soniccouture Haunted Spaces?


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## rsg22 (May 15, 2021)

Pier said:


> I too have been hoping Spitfire will release a version of Phobos where you can load your own samples. I suspect they don't want to open it because of some legal thing with BT.


Agreed - that would be terrific. Not holding my breath though.



timprebble said:


> But another option: there is nothing stopping you dropping synth sounds into convolution plugins. Years ago I bought an IR set by Canyon Spirit called Sanitarium, and if you listen to the actual IRs they are mostly all synth sounds and are not used to emulate reverbs... IR plugins like Reverberate 3 allows you to load two seperate IRs and apply them in real time with modulation, so this means you can achieve what you want, ie convolve in real time: load any synth audio you like as an IR, feed it with any synth you own... I know its not a 'synth' per se, but it is realtime and can be whatever you feed it with.


That's worth exploring - thanks for the tip!



wilifordmusic said:


> Soniccouture Haunted Spaces?


Looks like they're doing the morphing thing that some other synths do, but I don't _think_ it's convolution based - at least not in the sense I'm talking about. They refer to it as "vector synthesis" - which I'm not familiar with.


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## soniccouture (May 17, 2021)

rsg22 said:


> Looks like they're doing the morphing thing that some other synths do, but I don't _think_ it's convolution based - at least not in the sense I'm talking about. They refer to it as "vector synthesis" - which I'm not familiar with.


Hi,
Haunted Spaces is not convolution synthesis, you're right, although ti does feature 2 convolution processors in it's FX chain.

It's 'Vector Synthesis' which was a term used on 80s /90s synths that featured an XY controller. The concept being that you create moving waveforms using the motion of the XY path. it's surprisingly powerful.

James


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## rsg22 (May 17, 2021)

soniccouture said:


> Hi,
> Haunted Spaces is not convolution synthesis, you're right, although ti does feature 2 convolution processors in it's FX chain.
> 
> It's 'Vector Synthesis' which was a term used on 80s /90s synths that featured an XY controller. The concept being that you create moving waveforms using the motion of the XY path. it's surprisingly powerful.


Thanks - appreciate the explanation!


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## doctoremmet (May 17, 2021)

rsg22 said:


> Thanks - appreciate the explanation!


Check old synths like the Prophet VS, Yamaha SY35 and SY22 and Korg Wavestation.


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## Russell Anderson (May 22, 2021)

Your best bet may be using a resynthesis/sampling instrument and loading in pre-processed sounds from the effects you’re mentioning. A combination I don’t believe exists; use your effects chain as your synth or construct a custom interface using Max4Live or Patcher if you have those.

GRM Tools Grinder, MSpectralDelay apparently has a transform section with sidechain input, MMorph, MTransformer, Krotos Monsterizer 2... All are at least related to vocoding (Zynaptiq Morph also). The only thing I’m aware of that does true morphing is Kyma. The rest are, afaik, a take on vocoding. 

I am not sure if there is a special kind of convolution you’re referring to, or simply convolving two samples by each other - in a feedback loop? Or just one by the other and visa versa? Or is it totally different?

With regard to wavetables, many things I think would be good to see in table-form. This being largely filters, especially in additive synths; this could be used to somewhat vocode if the “table” could be written in realtime by sidechain or a sample loading module, or simply a table full of filters to quickly scroll through (made possible by FFT). I have wanted this feature in Harmor for a long time now.


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## ControlCentral (May 24, 2021)

Definitely Kyma territory at this point in history.


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## ElDoRado1239 (Jun 17, 2021)

Have not seen these mentioned, worth checking out I believe :
- _Trash 2_ by iZotope
- _Transformer_, _VoxPat 2_ and _Multiplex Vocoder 2_ by Digital Brain Instruments


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