# Why aren't there more black film composers?



## ThinkSpace Education (Feb 6, 2015)

Aspiring and established film composers are a dime a dozen these days, but one thing that seems to stand out to me (as an amateur composer myself) is how few black or mixed-race composers are in amongst those faces.

Being of black Caribbean descent myself, I can't see any reason why film composition would be an exclusionary field towards black people in any way, however I thought it was an interesting point for conversation.

Bradley
*ThinkSpace Education*


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 6, 2015)

Good question. Its a bit of a white male club all round, and it absolutely shouldn't be. It's not true in popular music, by contrast.

Bradley, have you found any overt or covert barriers on your journey so far that you could attribute to race? Or do you think a lack of any kind of role model puts it out of the minds of young black people, creating a catch 22?

This is an interesting read, btw... http://trombone.org/articles/library/jjjohnson-int-3.asp (http://trombone.org/articles/library/jj ... -int-3.asp) . James Louis doesn't sound too positive about progress, openly calling the Hollywood music scene "racist".


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## JohnG (Feb 6, 2015)

Good question.

Despite the gigantic reams of evidence to the contrary, I nevertheless thought my writing would speak for itself when I began.

Ha!

Typically, I've been hired for totally irrational reasons, and NOT hired for the same -- totally irrational reasons. I have gotten two, maybe three serious jobs solely based on my music.

The rest? 

Met an editor at a party; friend from graduate school put in a word for me to a music supervisor; met another dad (a director) with children at the preschool; got a referral from a guy at a music store who was selling keyboards. This last -- the salesman -- was one of my best references and, I thought at the time, least plausible. He actually said, "yes, he [producer] is a personal friend of mine," a sentence that in LA typically means what one might guess. It turned out the producer really WAS a personal friend and a good one as well.

There have been more but they are almost all equally irrational, by which I mean, not based on an evaluation of my music or my training as orchestrator / performer / whatever.

At a Major Network, they asked only (1) who my agent was and (2) where I lived. I mean, what?? Not, "have you ever scored television?" "What do you think the function of music is in drama?" "Do you have a studio that is capable of producing broadcast-quality music?" or even "Do you have training for this?"

By contrast, jobs doing orchestration or other functional roles have always been based on an evaluation of my experience and expertise.

So what does one do?

Go to lots of parties, hang out with friends, spend too much now and then on champagne or whatever and live it up. Go to see films with directors, editors, producers, actors now and then. Ask their opinions about what they see. For one thing, I learn from them because they see movies differently from the way I do. It's fun if the movies are good, and can be even more fun if they stink. 

I went to a spectacularly dreadful action movie with a director pal and about halfway through, with machine-guns blazing and shell casings ping-ing with THX precision, he said quietly, "you know, it takes a hell of a lot of effort to make a bad movie." Which, of course, is true.

I'm not sure this addresses your question, but there does seem to be so much randomness (just look at how varied the careers of the "big guys" have been) that I wonder if a rational explanation for your question exists?


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## RiffWraith (Feb 6, 2015)

It's just the way the industry is. Not talking the acting side, of course - but at one point not too long ago, you could effectively say, "why aren't there more black actors?"

Why aren't there more black people in post? When I was working in post ('94-'07), we had around 100 employees. Three were black, and two of them worked in accounting. The other was a tech. The overwhelmingly vast majority of our client base on site - music editors, sound editors, picture editors, assistants, post supervisors, etc., were almost all white. There were _some_ black people - but very few. Some Latinos, some Asians, but very few. And this is NYC, mind you.

Why aren't there more female re-recording engineers? Going back to when I was in post (and obviously before) - there was one. ONE; I forget her name, but she was at Skywalker. I remember having a convo with one or our clients - Wendy Hedin. Female, obviously. She was a sound editor, later to become a sound supervisor. I remember her telling me that when she got started in the late 70's, she wanted to be a mixer. But she was told, "no way - you are a woman. Find something else to do". And not just by one person, but several. So she went into sound editing.

It's just the way the industry is.

Cheers.


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## dinerdog (Feb 6, 2015)

Or really just go a little higher up: why aren't there more black directors and executives?

It needs to start at the top unfortunately. It's the same cross section all around. Now as Guy pointed out, totally different in music, but again, more black executives (with people like Puffy/Russell Simmons and Hip Hop spearheading the way) and more black artists.

I think it needs to happen from the top down unfortunately. It's the same in politics. The old white men need to retire and make room for a more realistic cross section of this world.


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## José Herring (Feb 6, 2015)

It's simple. As a composer of color myself in spite of every attempt to portray itself as opened minded Hollywood is quite racist.

Black people do hip/hop urban type music in the past Jazz a la Quincy Jones in the eyes of Hollywood. So you will get a few composers of color doing that type of score like Terrance Blanchard, Stanley Clarke, RZA, ect... on occasion.

I can't even count the amount of times I heard I should be doing hip/hop or DJ music my first few years here. I even met the lead agent at CAA who to my face told me that nobody was going to hire me for being an orchestral composer that young people aren't listening to Beethoven in their cars and he has a better time selling DJ's than composers. Blah, blah

Granted that kind of talk has died down I think mostly because I refuse to talk to people any more unless i know they're cool before I make the effort to talk. But, I do feel that the newer generations are less judgmental than the baby boomer who were probably even less judgmental than the generation before them.

There are a lot of very talented up and coming black composers. I run into them from time to time. Brandon Varrette(sp) is one and Jon A (last name escapes me) who does a lot of work for RC composers.

Though I often agree with John G. because he's my soul brodda, I have to say that I've been hired in my experience only because my music fit the project I was hired for. I have never been hired by somebody I causally met. Never worked for anybody that I knew before working with them. And, I think for the reason that when I meet people and tell them that I'm a musician and composer I have to then take the next ten minutes explaining that, no I don't do hip hop, I don't even like most popular forms of music, I don't know Pdiddy, he didn't go to Juilliard with me. And you think I'm joking but these are real conversations I've had, so I've learned not to tell people what I do and prefer to be judged by the music I do. It's a harder road requiring an enormous amount of promotion to reach people but in the end it's more satisfying for me because people are hiring me for the right reasons. I've even worked for right wing racist who hated liberal and distrusted dark skin people. I've done that twice. It's kind of comforting because I know that my race had nothing to do with me getting hired. And in the end, in some odd way I became friends with these racist.


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 6, 2015)

This is a really interesting thread, thanks for posting that Jose. A summary so far seems to be - it's not impossible, but there are enough idiots out there that it will make it harder for you. I'd say the same is true for women - it's sad to read your stories, Riff.

I definitely don't think any of us should just shrug "that's just how it is" though. It's not right and we should all aspire to a better and more equal industry.


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## Daryl (Feb 6, 2015)

dinerdog @ Fri Feb 06 said:


> It needs to start at the top unfortunately. It's the same cross section all around. Now as Guy pointed out, totally different in music, but again, more black executives (with people like Puffy/Russell Simmons and Hip Hop spearheading the way) and more black artists.
> 
> I think it needs to happen from the top down unfortunately. It's the same in politics. The old white men need to retire and make room for a more realistic cross section of this world.


I disagree. It can't start at the top if the choice of suitable candidates just isn't there. It needs to start at the bottom so that everyone has an equal chance.

However, as far as composers are concerned race is not the most important thing, in my view. What is much more serious is the lack of quality in the industry. Part of the problem is that (as others have mentioned) getting the gig is the most difficult thing, and the people who get the gigs are not always the best composers. So what needs to happen is a way for the best person for the job to be given the chance, and this will help people of all races, creeds and sexual orientation.

D


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## rgames (Feb 6, 2015)

I wonder if the lack of black film composers has to do with the traditional link to the world of classical composers (where blacks are also severely under-represented). And what about black conductors? And women conductors, for that matter. In terms of professional orchestras, off the top of my head I can think of only a couple women conductors but none that is black.

It's pretty much all white guys.

rgames


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## dinerdog (Feb 6, 2015)

Daryl - I'm confused, are you saying there aren't enough suitable candidates for executives or composers? And do you mean enough suitable black candidates? Or just candidates in general? And if the people getting the gigs are not always the best composers, why aren't more black composers (who aren't the best composers) getting more gigs?


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## Daryl (Feb 6, 2015)

dinerdog @ Fri Feb 06 said:


> Daryl - I'm confused, are you saying there aren't enough suitable candidates for executives or composers? And do you mean enough suitable black candidates? Or just candidates in general? And if the people getting the gigs are not always the best composers, why aren't more black composers (who aren't the best composers) getting more gigs?


What I'm saying is that at every level, whether executives or composers there are a very limited number of suitable black candidates, so it stands to reason that they will be under represented at the top levels. The only answer to this is to make sure that right from early schooling years everyone gets an equal opportunity, so that the best people get a chance to be in the position where they can get a top job. It just so happens that (as Richard alluded to) in the Classical field Black people are severely under represented, in terms of numbers, and given that a trained composer has a much better chance of being successful than an untrained one, it stands to reason that there will fewer black composers working at a professional level.

D


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## dinerdog (Feb 6, 2015)

Agreed. It's good to see some of the festivals are still trying to do this. There was just an NPR story on Sundance and their goal to nurture diverse filmmakers:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/201 ... filmmakers


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## olajideparis (Feb 6, 2015)

Well there's me and Jose Herring as well as some others. Basically its an incredibly competitive field no matter what your color is and there are simply less black composers in the talent pool so I would attribute it mostly to that. FWIW films by black directors are not even scored by black composers, which is where you might expect to find black composers working. Wendy & Lisa did a lot of black films and now Christopher Lennertz does a lot of them.


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## olajideparis (Feb 6, 2015)

Btw @Jose Herring you meant Jon Aschalew.


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## epmalm (Feb 6, 2015)

Why aren't more men represented in nursing?

Why aren't more women represented in construction or engineering?

Why aren't more white men represented in the NBA?

Why aren't more white people represented in rap?

Why aren't more black people represented in metal bands?

...

http://youtu.be/wMGfhXCpN2k?t=39s


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## José Herring (Feb 6, 2015)

Yes. Very talented young man Jon is.

I heard something of his a few years ago and it was terrible. I just heard something that he did last year and it sounded as professional as any RC track. His progress has been amazing.


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## José Herring (Feb 6, 2015)

epmalm @ Fri Feb 06 said:


> Why aren't more men represented in nursing?
> 
> Why aren't more women represented in construction or engineering?
> 
> ...



Stupid argument. Better to not post at all than post things that are totally stupid.

There are a lot of women engineers. 

There are a lot of white NBA players

There are a lot of male nurses

There are a lot of white rappers

Metal is considered a rural white type of folk music.

So are you saying that black people can't be film composers because we are less capable of it or that it's not our thing?

Either way you come across as a racist idiot.


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## givemenoughrope (Feb 6, 2015)

josejherring @ Fri Feb 06 said:


> Metal is considered a rural white type of folk music.



Actually, all of the progenitors of the genre come from urban areas in the UK and US. 

And the undisputed first and best hardcore (started as fusion players and later metal crossover) band were four black kids from D.C. (Bad Brains) That's a huge exception though but also they were truly awesome/unique. And maybe that has something to do with them being...different? I don't know about you guys but I could use some more different. I can't listen to white, male comics in their 30s anymore bc even if they are funny I already know what they're going to say. 

Also, In Cold Blood is a great score. It never occurs to me the race of the composer...just that it's an f'ed up, great movie front to back.


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## RiffWraith (Feb 6, 2015)

Jose - you know I like you, but c'mon now. Racist? Not at all. And it's not a stupid argument at all. You may not like it, which is fine, but it's not stupid - it actually gets right to the point.

_There are a lot of women engineers. _Actually, no there aren't. The number is on the rise, but it is still a male-dominated industry by far. And construction workers? A few females for sure, but hardly any.

_There are a lot of white NBA players._ No, actually there aren't - it's around 16%. And I am certainly not saying it's a bad thing, it's just that 16% is not a lot.

_There are a lot of male nurses. _Not really - about 10%. Again, hardly a lot.

_There are a lot of white rappers. _Really? Who? Eminem, maybe a few others. A lot? Not too sure about that....

_Metal is considered a rural white type of folk music._ Umm, no it is not. :lol:

Cheers.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 6, 2015)

"So are you saying that black people can't be film composers because we are less capable of it or that it's not our thing?"

Clearly both. Ask Quincy Jones, who wrote that totally incompetent score for "Pawnbroker." And of course Herbie Hancock had no idea what he was doing when he wrote that "Death Wish" score.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 6, 2015)

Good article from a while back:

http://www.filmmusicmag.com/?p=527


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## José Herring (Feb 6, 2015)

RiffWraith @ Fri Feb 06 said:


> Jose - you know I like you, but c'mon now. Racist? Not at all. And it's not a stupid argument at all. You may not like it, which is fine, but it's not stupid - it actually gets right to the point.
> 
> _There are a lot of women engineers. _Actually, no there aren't. The number is on the rise, but it is still a male-dominated industry by far. And construction workers? A few females for sure, but hardly any.
> 
> ...



There were a lot of white NBA players they just got taken over by better black players.

There are a lot of male nurses, I was just in the hospital and can attest to that. They generally like the more fast pace emergency environment rather than the in hospital care. But, the two hospitals I was in it was about 50/50. With most of the males working in the emergency room.

There are a lot of white rappers, they just aren't being pushed like black rappers because they don't fit the image certainly not because they aren't good enough. It's kind of a racism.

As far as metal. It is a rural white art form, just as rap was considered an inner city black music. But, I don't want to argue that.

And, I happen to know a lot of women engineers. More than I know black film composers 

So in all those poorly thought out arguments he presented each one points the the conclusion that a) some fields are traditionally dominated by a certain group and that's how it should be and b) people of other groups are less capable in those fields.

So the only conclusion that can be draw is that he thinks that film composing has traditionally been a white male dominated field because people of other races are less inclined or less capable of doing those fields and that's okay because there are other fields that are skewed towards a particular group.

That's prejudice and is the precise reason that these issues aren't addressed because it looks perfectly reasonable.

The better question to ask is, why aren't there more male nurses? Why do white rappers get excluded? Why is engineering dominated by men and what can we do about it along with the lack of representation of minorities and women in film and tv scoring. 

As far as basketball I offer this:

http://youtu.be/DYo8rB_Rcag?t=13s


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## José Herring (Feb 6, 2015)

That last little video is meant as a joke btw.

One more thing that I will add and then leave because this is a hot button for me and that is this.

People so buy into the perception of things that they never stop to question it. 

I grew up with arguments that are similar to what that guy posted and in truth those are just justifications and contribute nothing to making things better.


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## givemenoughrope (Feb 6, 2015)

Metal is urban. It came from Birmingham (Sabbath, Priest), London (Motorhead), Newcastle (Venom), D.C. (Pentagram, Bad Brains), New York (Anthrax), LA/SF (Metallica, Slayer), Oakland (Neurosis), Seattle (Melvins), Orlando (Death), Stockholm (Black Metal), and Gothenburg (Death Metal). Period. It is predominantly 'white' and those same people may not live in urban centers as much now but it is also 2015. They may sing about woods and gnomes and lord of the rings but so what...Birmingham was a steel town. 

I'm just saying...you're calling him out for making an assumption but this is one as well.


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## Daryl (Feb 6, 2015)

The point I would make is that it doesn't matter whether White or Black people are better at writing film music, even if there was a difference. What matters is that everyone is given an equal chance to fulfill their potential, and if anyone, no matter what their race, creed or sexuality, is not given the chance as a child, they are very unlikely to get another chance as an adult. It can happen, but it is unlikely. Quotas are an extremely bad idea, but making sure that nobody is excluded by society's preconceptions is essential.

D


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## José Herring (Feb 6, 2015)

givemenoughrope @ Fri Feb 06 said:


> Metal is urban. It came from Birmingham (Sabbath, Priest), London (Motorhead), Newcastle (Venom), D.C. (Pentagram, Bad Brains), New York (Anthrax), LA/SF (Metallica, Slayer), Oakland (Neurosis), Seattle (Melvins), Orlando (Death), Stockholm (Black Metal), and Gothenburg (Death Metal). Period. It is predominantly 'white' and those same people may not live in urban centers as much now but it is also 2015. They may sing about woods and gnomes and lord of the rings but so what...Birmingham was a steel town.
> 
> I'm just saying...you're calling him out for making an assumption but this is one as well.



Yes I am. I've always associated it with White Rural because I grew up close to that and that's what it was considered where I came from

@ Daryl,

Precisely my point. If this was an equal playing field like Basketball and it was dominated by whites because they performed better I'd not be having this discussion. But, this field is dominated by perception and the perception, though changing has been that black people didn't do orchestral music.

On the other hand I have a friend who is a very successful composer who is white and has said to me that he didn't get jobs because he was perceived as too square even though he is perfectly capable and likes urban styles of music.

So it can cut both ways. Just in my experience struggling along as an orchestral composer, it has worked against me rather than for me. And, I thought I was being hip by being a black orchestral composer, going against the grain :mrgreen:


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## givemenoughrope (Feb 6, 2015)

How can something like Film Scoring ever be an equal playing field? Seriously.


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## José Herring (Feb 6, 2015)

givemenoughrope @ Fri Feb 06 said:


> How can something like Film Scoring ever be an equal playing field? Seriously.



It can't but as a profession that is based on perception the perception can change to make it more equal. As long as the perception exist that blacks are relegated to doing urban and hip hop styles of music then the idea of a black person doing orchestral music is a foreign concept.

Just speaking from experience. I was in a meeting not too long ago. The guy wanted to know where I was born. I was born in Puerto Rico. Then he proceeds to tell me how much he likes Puerto Rican music and the guitar playing and singing, ect... I do too. He then ask "can you do something like that" yes i could but I'd have to hire a real guitar player and spanish singer because quite honestly I don't play guitar, I don't sing, I left Puerto Rico when I was 5 and don't really speak spanish any more. I mean, that's what it would take for me to "do" Puerto Rican music. Of course I left it with him as a "yes I can". But, honestly where does this guy come off thinking just because I was born somewhere that the music of that place is something that I'm even vaguely familiar with? If pressed, I could do a good job. But, it's not like it's part of my DNA.

So that's what we're left with a perception. Orchestral composers are white. The hip ones are white that do rock and now DJ'ing. I seriously think that's as deep as this thinking goes. So why not try to change the perception? It's based in idiocy.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 6, 2015)

I really think you all should read this. Seriously.



Ned Bouhalassa @ 6/2/2015 said:


> Good article from a while back:
> 
> http://www.filmmusicmag.com/?p=527


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## José Herring (Feb 6, 2015)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Feb 06 said:


> I really think you all should read this. Seriously.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am reading it. It's a long article. But I'm about half way through and couldn't agree more. 

The oddest thing is that those who practice this genre bias as they call it, don't even suspect that there's anything wrong with what they're doing. One of these days I'm going to have the guts to reverse it. Kind of throw it back on their face, kind of ask somebody of Scottish decent if they prefer bagpipes for their romantic comedy or something. Then sit back and look at the bewildered look on their face. Should be fun.


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## José Herring (Feb 6, 2015)

In funny way though TV is becoming the field that I hoped film would be. The diversity is increasing and the types of music more eclectic in nature incorporating many different types of music in a single score. The shows are amazing. Even the films are amazing. The budgets and the time constraints are killing it for music though. But, it has potential.


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## iaink (Feb 7, 2015)

josejherring @ Fri Feb 06 said:


> ... But, honestly where does this guy come off thinking just because I was born somewhere that the music of that place is something that I'm even vaguely familiar with? ...



Maybe I missed something, but that seems like a normal assumption many people will make... I mean about anyone from anywhere.


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## José Herring (Feb 7, 2015)

iaink @ Sat Feb 07 said:


> josejherring @ Fri Feb 06 said:
> 
> 
> > ... But, honestly where does this guy come off thinking just because I was born somewhere that the music of that place is something that I'm even vaguely familiar with? ...



Can you do Highlander's Farewell to Montreal on the Bagpipes? Love to hear it.

All Joking aside if he had mention Latin Jazz I would have been all of it, but his assumption was along the lines of assuming that all musicians from Scotland play bagpipes.


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## iaink (Feb 7, 2015)

josejherring @ Sat Feb 07 said:


> Can you do Highlander's Farewell to Montreal on the Bagpipes? Love to hear it.



How dare you!


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## ModalRealist (Feb 8, 2015)

I am really very shocked and surprised by some of the views that have been expressed in this thread, which seem thinly-veiled prejudices from my naive standpoint. I can only express my admiration that those members against whom those prejudices fall have continued the discussion so even-handedly, to their great credit.

For what it's worth, I don't believe demographic statistics paint a particularly useful picture in and if themselves: but combine them with a little testing of opinion and reaction to individual cases and a more reliable cross-section emerges. The one that has thus done so here, I have to say, I find deeply troubling.


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## José Herring (Feb 8, 2015)

ModalRealist @ Sun Feb 08 said:


> I am really very shocked and surprised by some of the views that have been expressed in this thread, which seem thinly-veiled prejudices from my naive standpoint. I can only express my admiration that those members against whom those prejudices fall have continued the discussion so even-handedly, to their great credit.
> 
> For what it's worth, I don't believe demographic statistics paint a particularly useful picture in and if themselves: but combine them with a little testing of opinion and reaction to individual cases and a more reliable cross-section emerges. The one that has thus done so here, I have to say, I find deeply troubling.



It's just the usual bullshit and is only depressing because the people expressing the consensus view don't consider for even a second that it's a prejudice view that they're expressing.

I mean, c'mon it's ok that there are a lack of black composers in Hollywood because basketball is dominated by blacks. That's a klan argument. :lol: And unfortunately one that I've heard repeated over and over again.


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## olajideparis (Feb 9, 2015)

Yeah, not good...


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## guitarman1960 (Feb 9, 2015)

josejherring @ Mon Feb 09 said:


> ModalRealist @ Sun Feb 08 said:
> 
> 
> > I am really very shocked and surprised by some of the views that have been expressed in this thread, which seem thinly-veiled prejudices from my naive standpoint. I can only express my admiration that those members against whom those prejudices fall have continued the discussion so even-handedly, to their great credit.
> ...




Yeah, that's a ridiculous argument. I also don't think the lack of a role model argument works either. I mean look at golf, Tiger Woods, (before his private life exploded all over the media) was the perfect role model for a successful black golfer, but where are all the successful black golfers following in his footsteps? Can't see any?

I'm sure racism and prejudice does play a part in how things are sadly, but maybe it'a also that there just aren't too many black musicians who are aiming to be film composers and keep knocking on the door?

To address an earlier point, I come from the birthplace of Heavy Rock and Metal, the West Midlands, UK, and it is NOT a rural folk music in any possible viewpoint.


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## markwind (Feb 9, 2015)

josejherring @ Fri Feb 06 said:


> It's simple. As a composer of color myself in spite of every attempt to portray itself as opened minded Hollywood is quite racist.
> 
> Black people do hip/hop urban type music in the past Jazz a la Quincy Jones in the eyes of Hollywood.



It's not racism, racism is ascribing superiority in terms of the lessened value of other folks life life, or denying their existence in some capacity based on skin color. That's not what is happening (as a general tendency I mean, of course there are messed up folk who actually are racists.. I'm just trying to bring nuance to these kinds of discussions, as popular media and discussion has completely twisted its meaning and thus the discussions).

What IS happening is that we all try to understand the world, the structures it has and we do that by associating certain physical attributes with certain tastes and behaviors.. It's how we try to understand the world, how we perceive fellow people, it's stereotyping, it's categorization, it's a core mechanism of culture. We are nowhere near the point where we don't have _preconceptions_ about other people, and as long as we do, we will do so based on physical features among others.

That said.. It's not helping to achieve an equal playing field in many of our industries.. (wrong) preconceptions mess up opportunities, from both sides. On the one hand there is a lack of diverse role models to inspire people that it's actually a career choice for them too, enabling judgement or discouragement from peers. On the other hand there are the preconceptions from those who are in a position to give out opportunities and don't.

I've thought long and hard about this matter, but I see no clear solution other then to keep on pushing through, break the preconceptions that people have put in place which put others in place and break through the possible judgement from peers to choose something atypical. These kinds of changes are hard to get by just having a nice and deep 'chat' about things.

A diversified play-field takes decades to fully come through, because it requires a change in culture of many of our cultures. So keep on breaking through.


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## JimmyPoppa (Feb 10, 2015)

Hi All,

I'm a 60 y/o black composer/arranger/orchestrator w/Juilliard background. Until recently, I mostly worked in the musical theatre and stage shows rather than film/TV, although that seems to be changing lately. I'd like to weigh in with a bit of my experiences, if you all don't mind.

Like most arrangers, I try to be able to do as many styles as possible as well as possible. Of course, there things I do better than others and some I steer completely away from. I will often recommend a colleague to a client if I think that colleague will do a significantly better job than I can.

However...

As other ethnic composers have mentioned, until very recently, the number one issue was always, always, always, the perception that you only do 'black' music (or Latin, Asian, Middle Eastern, etc.). It could be Jazz, Blues, R&B, Soul, Pop, Funk, Hip-Hop, etc., but the assumption was always there. You would have to overcome it virtually every time you dealt with anyone.

As an American, I have most of the same cultural influences as everyone else who was born and raised here. So, many of my ideas are not particularly ethnic, they're just generic ideas. I can't tell you how many times I have asked people to read project concepts I had and within the first page they actually would stop, look at me and say, "Oh, this isn't a "black" show?"

IMO, most of the time, this wasn't malicious or intended as a slur. It was simply so deeply ingrained in the cultural consciousness that people weren't aware they were doing it. As someone mentioned, you can see how it would be natural for someone to think some of these things. Especially among the older generations (meaning mine).

For a time, it made me steer completely away from Jazz and Blues because I felt I had to establish the perception of my traditional, orchestral chops in the minds of clients. The problem with that is that it made it harder to get work.

As another poster mentioned, you are often told point blank that you should do a specific set of styles. Even ethnic people sometimes resent you for trying to sound "too white." There's no way for people to know your background and the things that play in your head. So, if you hear traditional orchestral music and that's what turns you on, what you want to write, you definitely have some issues to deal with. 

Over time, I was able to let go of my own biases and embrace all styles as a part of my musical pallette and offer a fairly wide variety. In particular, the synthesis of the orchestra with Jazz has worked out very well for me in terms of getting gigs since not a lot of people do that well. Still, of course, it was very frustrating not to be perceived as a legit, straight ahead orchestrator or to be able to get those kinds of jobs.

The good thing is that, I'm seeing a real shift in this perception as the younger generations come into the client base. A lot of my clients now are 30 year olds who have grown up in a multi-cultural, mixed race environment. They have friends of every race and the media influences are more diverse. When they come to me, they have a different set of expectations than do clients my age.

So, my most recent projects have been very gratifying in that regard. I just finished a piece where the client called and asked for a Disney princess parody for a commercial. He wanted an original song with full orchestra (mockup) that sounded like a Snow White or Enchanted score. No Jazz, no Pop - just pure, Disney style, orchestral composition and orchestration. The best thing is that there was never the slightest hint of a question in his mind about whether I could do it. The racial aspect of it, to which all ethnic people are quite sensitive, never entered the picture at all.

I have two other quite large projects like that right now. One for stage show with orchestra and the other for a new television show. 

All of these are from young, white, male clients who don't appear even to be thinking about the fact that I am black. They just want the sound that fits their project and are assuming I can give it to them.

So, things definitely seem to be changing. It's just a long road for ethnics and women. 

There will always be a large amount of 'who you know' in these things. The gigs I mentioned above have come to me due to relationships developed over the years. However, in terms of the various biases, racial, cultural, gender, etc., I have seen _enormous_ progress in my lifetime and I have high hopes for more.

Thanks for your time.

Be Well,

Jimmy


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## José Herring (Feb 10, 2015)

Thank you Jimmy.


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## JimmyPoppa (Feb 10, 2015)

Jose,

You're very welcome.

Be Well,

Jimmy


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## Vision (Feb 17, 2015)

ThinkSpace Education @ Fri Feb 06 said:


> Aspiring and established film composers are a dime a dozen these days, but one thing that seems to stand out to me (as an amateur composer myself) is how few black or mixed-race composers are in amongst those faces.
> 
> Being of black Caribbean descent myself, I can't see any reason why film composition would be an exclusionary field towards black people in any way, however I thought it was an interesting point for conversation.
> 
> ...




Interesting discussion. I’d like to give a few perspectives, if I may. Might sound a little controversial to some, but I just ask that you keep an open mind. 

So in the U.S., African Americans make up about roughly 13% of the population. In my experience, as an African American generation X’r, I was exposed to, and really loved orchestral music early on. Based on cultural differences, and the history of this country, it was fairly rare for children, young men/women in black culture to be exposed to orchestral music, and soundtracks. Also in some cases, due to socioeconomic factors, it just wasn’t practical to be involved with, or listen to orchestral music. 

Orchestral music is a very old/classic european art form spanning centuries. It is a uniquely, culturally european art form.. absolutely nothing wrong with that distinction. Then, we have the advent of Film music, at around the 1930’s. Film music arguably coming in to it’s own by the mid 60’s-70’s. 

So put this into perspective.. African Americans were literally coming out of Jim Crow segregation; the paper version of “you’re now free” in 1965. The question is, how can you really know what you like, if you don’t have any examples, role models, and have very little, if any, exposure to that particular genre? Not to mention being told, in so many ways, that you are not even supposed to be able to dream big enough to succeed in anything, except for perhaps sports. Music wise.. Jazz, bee pop, and R&B were the main options for black people back in the day. Quincy Jones with his Jazz roots, broke down some boundaries as a black composer, but it was extremely rare for the time period. 

As far as my situation is concerned, I grew up in a middle class family. Dad was a cop, Mom a teacher. We were by no means well off, but not poor. I was fortunate enough as a child that I was introduced to orchestral/soundtrack music at a really early age. As a christmas present my mother gave me the Original John Williams Superman Soundtrack. Talk about a mind blowing experience. I was a tiny.. tiny little kid listening to “The Trip to Earth” and “Growing Up”, over and over and over and over again on a piece of crap Fisher Price Record player.

I was fortune enough to learn to play Trumpet in 3rd grade elementary school, and eventually transition to the French Horn. I played in symphonic bands and orchestra in high school, as well as college. Being in symphonic bands gave me a very deep appreciation for orchestration, instrumentation; and just an overall insight into the inner workings of what makes an orchestra work. 

I watch a lot of Formula 1. I sometimes parallel the lack of black film composers, to the lack of black race car drivers. Auto sport is unquestionably a european dominated sport. Not because there aren’t any good black racers, but because it is a sport that is an extremely expensive endeavor to participate in at an early age, and it is not exposed to most black communities. Basketball is a skill based sport as well; you do need to have good technique, fundamentals etc. But in contrast to auto sports, basketball is an easily accessible sport in most black communities. A really good way to come out of a lower socioeconomic situation, is to excel at a sport. Go to the park, or a gym.. find some hoops, get a pick up game going, and hone your skill for free. A basketball costs about 10 bucks. My Holton Farkas H178 French Horn I used in college was about 3 grand at the time. Many black youths don’t get the experience to explore how cool a French Horn, or a Viola could be. For that matter, same goes for poor whites. Also, main stream media is a huge negative factor in shaping “popular culture”, and propagating stereotypes. 

I do think things will change with generation y and z. Things aren’t perfect, but cultures are interacting way more than in the past especially with social media. Also in my generation, the tools weren’t accessible so early on, i.e. computers, and sample libraries. 

Society subtly.. and at times not so subtly massaged the idea in my head that I wasn’t supposed to be able to aspire to be a composer of orchestral music. I was supposed stick to the hip hop, jazz, or pop. But luckily that mentality did not stop me from doing what I wanted to do musically. 

As far as getting the job in hollywood, that’s another ball game. It’s hard enough to get gigs as a working composer in general, no matter what color you are. No question it would be harder for me based on skin color, preconceived notions, and ignorance. But I’ve sort of accepted that this is the world we live in now. And hopefully if I’m competing for a job, the powers that be will be progressive enough to give me a fair shake based on merit.


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