# News from EWQL towers



## wesbender (Dec 5, 2010)

Yeah, I'm not too sure about charging for a "non-major" update. Unless it's dirt cheap and full of amazing new features, which would be a bit strange with Play Pro still around the corner.




noiseboyuk @ Sun Dec 05 said:


> General new update - note, this will be the FINAL update of regular Play




This is slightly odd though. I never like to see a developer claim that they're done updating anything. Unless of course it's the most stable, amazing, feature-rich update of all time in the history of sample libraries. Which I kinda doubt.

Whatever though, Play's been working great for me since the last few updates, so as long as it stays that way I won't have many complaints. Except for the purge feature, which I still hate. They really need to do what Kontakt does in that regard.

Doug also said this - "Quantum Leap SPACES and one other new product will be released in January, we're confident of that, both are in final development."

Wonder what the other product is? 

In any case, good news on WB, and I can't wait for their brass/winds. Gonna be an expensive 2011.


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## synthnut (Dec 5, 2010)

There were too many issues with Play to begin with .....I have never even considered getting any software in "Play" ...... I'll stay with Kontakt ....Back a few years , I finally bit the bullet and had a computer built specifically for Giga ....The rest is history ....I will continue on with Kontakt only because it's stable and has been around for years .... I'm not lookng for the newest , hottest , fastest , product on the block anymore .... Once bitten twice shy ...Jim


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## synthnut (Dec 5, 2010)

There were too many issues with Play to begin with .....I have never even considered getting any software in "Play" ...... I'll stay with Kontakt ....Back a few years , I finally bit the bullet and had a computer built specifically for Giga ....The rest is history ....I will continue on with Kontakt only because it's stable and has been around for years .... I'm not lookng for the newest , hottest , fastest , product on the block anymore .... Once bitten twice shy ...Jim


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## Mr. Anxiety (Dec 5, 2010)

I own EWQLSO Platinum Plus, whatever it's called........, I've owned it since it's release way back in the day........ when it was $3k or so.

Used it a lot, very helpful in my productions.

I bought the upgrade to PLAY a couple years ago.............

haven't opened the box!

My confidence level to switch is not there....... Kontakt is working too well to risk the potential hassles of Play, sorry to say.

I still recommend this library to anybody wanting a good, balanced orchestral template within one library...... especially at $400.00 now...............??????

Mr A


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## dpasdernick (Dec 5, 2010)

wesbender @ Sun Dec 05 said:


> Yeah, I'm not too sure about charging for a "non-major" update. Unless it's dirt cheap and full of amazing new features, which would be a bit strange with Play Pro still around the corner.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To your point, even if they make a bullet proof FINAL version you will one day change your OS to a later version and the bulet proof version of Play may not work.

EWQL is an interesting company. Their products are really nice although after the 1st run of Play products that came out they seemed to have stopped development except for Hollywood Strings and the Dark Side. Comapnaies like NI seem to put out new stuff almost every month and their prices just get cheaper and cheaper. 

I also feel more loyal to companies like Spectasonics that offer so many upgrades for free. I have yet to update my Gold Pro XP NI version because it's working flawlessly in Kontakt. Why spend the money? Play does work well for me, I have SD2, Silk, RA, VOP and Goliath. I am not too interested in any of the others except maybe the Dark Side (which I will wait to go on sale even if it takes a year)

I not sure why I would want a version of Play Pro. Especially if it is going to be pricey. I'll stick with Kontakt. Even if Play pro is amazing will EW license it out to 3rd parties? IMO this is what made Kontakt so strong. I wonder if there is room for two major sample player/editor platforms. Halion fell off the map as did Giga. I hope that EW realeses more Play-like libraries in the future and don't put all of their eggs in a new sample/player/editor for 2011.


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## JonFairhurst (Dec 5, 2010)

Isn't the idea of Play Pro that we would be able to customize our Play libs more to our liking? I just got and installed Gold, and while the programming is excellent, it's not personalized for me. Having the ability to create a more personalized template would be nice.


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## Rob Elliott (Dec 5, 2010)

Is the 'other' library as mentioned by DR 'HollywoodBrasss'? Is this definitive?


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## Ashermusic (Dec 5, 2010)

Animus @ Sun Dec 05 said:


> Sorry but that is [email protected]#ked. Last version of the Play rompler and then make people pay to upgrade if they want bug fixes? I can see Hollywood Strings will be my first and last Play lib it looks like.



Really? Is any serious user not anxious and therefore willing to pay something to have a Play version that allows us to do the kind of things we can do with Kontakt?


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 5, 2010)

Rob Elliott @ Sun Dec 05 said:


> Is the 'other' library as mentioned by DR 'HollywoodBrasss'? Is this definitive?



No, I don't think so Rob... Doug mentions elsewhere that that's for later in 2011. Not sure what that is... perhaps like The Dark Side is an all new thing that's pretty low-maintenance to put together.

Generally most of the comments here seem to be ignoring the Play and a Half. It doesn't look like they're going to stop doing Player-only solutions, when this new version of Play will be released in a few months. At a wild guess (total speculation obviously) it might allow custom keyswitches and an overall mixer tab, the kind of things most ordinary users want without shelling out $300 for full sample manipulation.

I too question the wisdom of taking on Kontakt... NI is a behemoth, and a very effective one at that. It's got the entire market sealed up, pretty much. IMHO the only way they'll get their foot in the door is as a massive loss-leader. I'm not sure even bundling Goliath would be enough to lure people, but that would be a minimum starting point to have the remotest chance.


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## José Herring (Dec 5, 2010)

Animus @ Sun Dec 05 said:


> Sorry but that is [email protected]#ked. Last version of the Play rompler and then make people pay to upgrade if they want bug fixes? I can see Hollywood Strings will be my first and last Play lib it looks like.



Never say never. I've said never again to many products in the VI world only to find that sooner or later, you have to take it back. :lol: 

After I bought Play VOP I said never again. Then they came out with HS, soon HB, next HWW and after that HPerc. I'm finding that my "never" has a limited time span. Personally, I'll never say never again.  

Jose


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## Animus (Dec 5, 2010)

josejherring @ Sun Dec 05 said:


> Animus @ Sun Dec 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry but that is [email protected]#ked. Last version of the Play rompler and then make people pay to upgrade if they want bug fixes? I can see Hollywood Strings will be my first and last Play lib it looks like.
> ...



Yeah, maybe. But I have absolutely no interest in Brass, Percussion and Woodwinds on that epic of a scale as the Hollywood series. And none of their other current standard libraries really interest me, except maybe Gypsy or Silk but the violin/cello in those sound to synthy to me.. Only reason I bought HS was that I really like lush strings and Murphy knows what he is doing from an engineering standpoint. It's "PLAYness" is actually a drawback for me as you can't do shit in terms of editing and I am not going to pay more money to upgrade to Play whatever to unlock things that should be standard, as if it was a full-fledged sampler like Kontakt but can't load shit but EastWest products.


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## José Herring (Dec 5, 2010)

Yeah I know. I kind of wish for universal products too. It makes things much easier. I heard a while back that Play Pro would be more of a multi format sampler like Kontakt. I guess we'll see.

Jose


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## Nick Phoenix (Dec 5, 2010)

EWQL Towers? As in the LOTR towers? I don't know why some of you are so angry and hostile. We are not selling bubonic plague. Old libraries aren't good enough, new libraries are too much. We are a very small company that tries really hard and works weekends. Those of you that don't want to support us, out of some misguided idea that we are some giant soulless corporation, should rethink that. Would you prefer we didn't exist? HS is a little ahead of it's time. True. In the long run, that is a good thing.


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## Nick Phoenix (Dec 5, 2010)

Rob Elliott @ Sun Dec 05 said:


> Is the 'other' library as mentioned by DR 'HollywoodBrasss'? Is this definitive?



Hollywood Orchestral Brass and Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds have both been completely recorded and are both being edited now. brass will come first. It is an even more involved library than HS, but the patches are smaller because there is no bow change legato and generally only one type of legato per instrument.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 5, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Sun Dec 05 said:


> EWQL Towers? As in the LOTR towers? I don't know why some of you are so angry and hostile. We are not selling bubonic plague. Old libraries aren't good enough, new libraries are too much. We are a very small company that tries really hard and works weekends. Those of you that don't want to support us, out of some misguided idea that we are some giant soulless corporation, should rethink that. Would you prefer we didn't exist? HS is a little ahead of it's time. True. In the long run, that is a good thing.



Hey Nick.. this thread has a pretty broad range of support. Sure, some don't like you guys, some love you, some are somewhere in the middle, probably where I am. SC/WB still frustrates me but I see light at the end of that particular tunnel, and SO and RA rock. No question you've made some fantastic products. Oh, and honestly don't think anything of the "Towers" in the title - it's just a phrase I use about anything / anyone!

As I said in the OP, I really responded to the tone of Doug's latest posts, they make a HUGE difference to me when they are candid and even have a little self-deprecating humour.


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## Animus (Dec 5, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Sun Dec 05 said:


> EWQL Towers? As in the LOTR towers? I don't know why some of you are so angry and hostile. We are not selling bubonic plague. Old libraries aren't good enough, new libraries are too much. We are a very small company that tries really hard and works weekends. Those of you that don't want to support us, out of some misguided idea that we are some giant soulless corporation, should rethink that. Would you prefer we didn't exist? HS is a little ahead of it's time. True. In the long run, that is a good thing.



More like the Tower of London circa the 16th century.  Or maybe ivory tower?


I have supported you by giving you $1500 for HS, even had to buy a i7 970 and a SSD to run it properly, so I have done more than my share. Not angry per se but seems kind of chintzy to end support for existing Play customers and nickel and dime us if we want to be able have continued support. And if for example WIndows comes out with some update or some third party driver that is required for our work and causes problems with Play we will have to upgrade to Play Plus to get support and fixes? I understand the concept of paying for something like Play Pro but paying to have continued support of a rompler? I can't imagine if VSL ended support for Vienna Instruments when VI Pro came out and then asked you to pay for an upgrade to a Vienna Instruments 2.


I wouldn't call having a multimillion dollar studio and driving around Lamborghinis exactly "small" either.


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## fido94 (Dec 5, 2010)

Nick, 64-bit support for Mac has left a bad taste with me ... still waiting.


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## dpasdernick (Dec 5, 2010)

Animus @ Sun Dec 05 said:


> I wouldn't call having a multimillion dollar studio and driving around Lamborghinis exactly "small" either.



Man if this is considered small then I'm off the charts... With all due respect Nick, and I sincerely think you are an amazing talent, it's tough to have you play the small company card when we've all seen the Phillpe Starck refurb on the studio... A lot of the people on this forum have contributed to your very well deserved success.

With all due respect,

Darren


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## Nick Phoenix (Dec 5, 2010)

Doug owns a large studio. He has been very successful in the real estate market. I wouldn't assume he paid for it with EW money. neither of us drive a Lamborghini. We are a small company. Large compared to a one man operation, small compared to anything else.

64 bit mac support has been done for 2 years but PACE has been unable to complete their end. We need copy protection, so we can stay in business. Go to KVR or some of these other forums and EW products are completely absent from discussion. How is it that the number one selling sample developer is absent from discussion? Answer: copy protection. We haven't been cracked yet. most people are using pirated software and we can't afford to let that happen to us, when we spend huge sums on libraries like HS.


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## Animus (Dec 5, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Sun Dec 05 said:


> Doug owns a large studio. He has been very successful in the real estate market. I wouldn't assume he paid for it with EW money. neither of us drive a Lamborghini. We are a small company. Large compared to a one man operation, small compared to anything else.
> 
> 64 bit mac support has been done for 2 years but PACE has been unable to complete their end. We need copy protection, so we can stay in business. Go to KVR or some of these other forums and EW products are completely absent from discussion. How is it that the number one selling sample developer is absent from discussion? Answer: copy protection. We haven't been cracked yet. most people are using pirated software and we can't afford to let that happen to us, when we spend huge sums on libraries like HS.



oh okay. I thought it being called EastWest Studios implied it was an EastWest affiliation. So you have to pay Doug for studio time for EastWest productions? wow he has it good and a Land Baron/slum lord nonetheless!  

My bad on the Lamborghini comment. I was going on a link somebody posted to a car forum that had Doug posting a complaint about the shoddy service he received from a dealer or something.


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## Animus (Dec 5, 2010)

double


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## Animus (Dec 5, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sun Dec 05 said:


> Animus @ Sun Dec 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry but that is [email protected]#ked. Last version of the Play rompler and then make people pay to upgrade if they want bug fixes? I can see Hollywood Strings will be my first and last Play lib it looks like.
> ...



So you are saying you are not making serious proffesional stuff with Play right now? :roll: 

ANd I am not talking about Play Pro. I am talking about charging for a standard Play update, unless I misunderstood the whole thing.


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## Ashermusic (Dec 5, 2010)

Animus @ Sun Dec 05 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sun Dec 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Animus @ Sun Dec 05 said:
> ...



I re-read it and you are right Animus. For me I guess it will depend on how much it brings to the table versus the price.


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## Animus (Dec 5, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sun Dec 05 said:


> Animus @ Sun Dec 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Ashermusic @ Sun Dec 05 said:
> ...



Well the standard and parallel they should be comparing Play with is Vienna Instruments, which is free and continually supported and feature enriched (despite VI Pro being released) and you can edit keyswitches and controllers out of the box..

Definitely a brilliant way to squeeze the most money out of Eastwest customers, hit em with a little incremental update with some wanted features but not all they charge for and then hit em again with another version a little bit later with other needed features people are going to want as well, so they are going to get double the revenue because realistically who is going to wait for Play Pro to get some professional level features in the meantime. Unless of course, they credit the Play mkII cost against Play Pro, which would be the right thing to do.


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## Animus (Dec 5, 2010)

dpasdernick @ Sun Dec 05 said:


> Animus @ Sun Dec 05 said:
> 
> 
> > I wouldn't call having a multimillion dollar studio and driving around Lamborghinis exactly "small" either.
> ...



And I wouldn't call the ability to sink the self-admitted 1 million dollars I think I recall them investing into Hollywood Strings a sign of a small time company either.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 5, 2010)

All due respect, chaps, but how relevant is the size of their turnover / how many sports cars do they own here? They are not NI big (which seems to be Nick's point), but yes neither are they Orange Tree small. Personally I don't much care - sounds, usability and price I do care about.

Just seems a little unseemly, that's all...


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## StrangeCat (Dec 5, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Sun Dec 05 said:


> EWQL Towers? As in the LOTR towers? I don't know why some of you are so angry and hostile. We are not selling bubonic plague. Old libraries aren't good enough, new libraries are too much. We are a very small company that tries really hard and works weekends. Those of you that don't want to support us, out of some misguided idea that we are some giant soulless corporation, should rethink that. Would you prefer we didn't exist? HS is a little ahead of it's time. True. In the long run, that is a good thing.



No no Nick you have that all wrong that Fawlty Towers! Fawlty!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfl6Lu3xQW0&list=SL


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## Animus (Dec 5, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Sun Dec 05 said:


> 64 bit mac support has been done for 2 years but PACE has been unable to complete their end. We need copy protection, so we can stay in business. Go to KVR or some of these other forums and EW products are completely absent from discussion. How is it that the number one selling sample developer is absent from discussion? Answer: copy protection. We haven't been cracked yet. most people are using pirated software and we can't afford to let that happen to us, when we spend huge sums on libraries like HS.



Kind of bold and presumptuous to accuse a whole forum community of piracy perhaps? Honestly, I think EastWest's absence on KVR has more to do with composer types not being the demographic there. Mostly, bedroom musician/producer types who don't have need for most of the specialized more film score oriented EastWest products. And the more generic EastWest stuff has far more competition. For example, there are far better drum and bass libraries out their than MOR or Hardcore Bass.

Also, a lot of developers' actual official forums are hosted and embedded at KVR so naturally those products are going to get more attention since people who own their products hang out there.


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## MichaelJM (Dec 5, 2010)

I think it's a bit soon to start worrying about a single mention of an interim player. I'm not going to accuse EWQL of squeezing money out of customers, before they've even released it. It's a bit silly I feel. Is there something EWQL related we can complain about that isn't speculation at this point? 
--
And yes Guy, it is unseemly. We can all move on from that discussion I think.


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## Animus (Dec 5, 2010)

MichaelJM @ Sun Dec 05 said:


> I think it's a bit soon to start worrying about a single mention of an interim player. I'm not going to accuse EWQL of squeezing money out of customers, before they've even released it. It's a bit silly I feel. Is there something EWQL related we can complain about that isn't speculation at this point?
> --
> And yes Guy, it is unseemly. We can all move on from that discussion I think.



How is it speculation when it comes from the horse's mouth? I don't think complaining is silly at all because it can effectively change minds and courses of action.  So basically I am stating I would not like the idea of being charged again for the standard Play rompler. Native Instruments and other sample developers have never charged upgrade fees for new versions of Kontakt Player afaik, and they are at version 4 and have kept on adding new features. The same thing with Vienna Instruments. In that light Play isn't being competitive at all and I will stick to Kontakt and Vienna libaries wherever possible.

I bought Hollywood Strings, not Play, which is just the rompler they will allow me to use it in; so basically they are suggesting to cut off my support of a $1500 product I just bought and forcing me to pay for an upgrade (or buy into more EW products) to compatibly scale with future computer systems and receive bugfixes. I don't think that's an unreasonable concern to have honestly.


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## Rob Elliott (Dec 5, 2010)

Nick - any ETA on HB? Really looking forward to that based on my 'day to day' SIGNIFICANT use of the wonderful HS. HS has simply taken my productions to the next level and most importantly - my paying customers have noticed. nuf' said.

I personally hope you make a kajillion on HS/HB/HWW so you are flourishing in 2015. The more successful you are -- the most successful I am. Sorry for the narcissism. :wink: 

(give me a sweet and lyrical SOLO french horn in HB and the next kid is named Nick or Nickie.)


Rob


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## MichaelJM (Dec 5, 2010)

Animus @ Sun Dec 05 said:


> How is it speculation when it comes from the horse's mouth? I don't think complaining is silly at all because it can effectively change minds and courses of action.  So basically I am stating I would not like the idea of being charged again for the standard Play rompler.



Point taken. Though personally, I feel like more could be explained, and you probably feel that way to. So I'll ask Nick the question straight up: is there cause to worry?

If this interim player has features of Play Pro, then I see no reason why they shouldn't charge for it. Will Play Pro be an upgrade to the interim player (at upgrade pricing)? How far down the line will Play Pro be released after the interim player? How many extra features will it have that are worth paying for? How much will each player cost? Is there a market for the interim player and Play Pro (in which case releasing both is helpful)? There are just a lot of questions still that could be asked before I become concerned and voice complaints.


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## Nick Phoenix (Dec 5, 2010)

Love Faulty Towers or Farty Towels

Not everyone on KVR is a pirate. of course. We have done studies though and piracy is pretty out of control. KVR is a good example because I see discussions of Cinematic Strings and LASS there, but not HS. Draw your own conclusions.

PLAY instruments have not been cracked yet. they are different than the other PACE stuff.

Not sure of the Play upgrade prices etc.. I am pretty damn sure it will be very fair.

The sample industry is tiny and we have far less employees than the local music store. That's all I am saying. 

I have a new product coming in January and 3 guys worked on it including me and it took one year. That's pretty small time.


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## Animus (Dec 5, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Sun Dec 05 said:


> Love Faulty Towers or Farty Towels
> 
> Not everyone on KVR is a pirate. of course. We have done studies though and piracy is pretty out of control. KVR is a good example because I see discussions of Cinematic Strings and LASS there, but not HS. Draw your own conclusions.
> 
> ...



Points taken.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Dec 5, 2010)

Animus @ Sun Dec 05 said:


> oh okay. I thought it being called EastWest Studios implied it was an EastWest affiliation. So you have to pay Doug for studio time for EastWest productions? wow he has it good and a Land Baron/slum lord nonetheless!
> 
> My bad on the Lamborghini comment. I was going on a link somebody posted to a car forum that had Doug posting a complaint about the shoddy service he received from a dealer or something.



Who gives a hoot?!

I couldn't care less whether or not Doug or Nick got rich selling libraries.
Good for them!

What matters is whether or not I find their products useful... and the answer is yes.

Quit the juvenile talk, will you?!


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## Animus (Dec 5, 2010)

Patrick de Caumette @ Mon Dec 06 said:


> Animus @ Sun Dec 05 said:
> 
> 
> > oh okay. I thought it being called EastWest Studios implied it was an EastWest affiliation. So you have to pay Doug for studio time for EastWest productions? wow he has it good and a Land Baron/slum lord nonetheless!
> ...



I could care less about their personal wealth, I was just responding to Nick's comment, that they are obviously not a small company if they are pulling in the kind of revenue to buy million dollar studios and sink 1million into Hollywood Strings development (and claiming to be the #1 sampler developer in sales). Unless that kind of company reinvestment is considered small to you. And then to somehow use the small company excuse as justification to charge us for the Play rompler again if we want continued support when other companies bigger and smaller do no such thing?

Anyways, I've said my peace. I'm out of this thread.

And please don't tell me what I should and shouldn't say, grandpa.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 5, 2010)

Animus, do you even own any EW products?

Just so you know, there's been a major kracking problem in our industry related to the iLok. This is not the usual thing, it's a big disaster.

Please curb your fingers.

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A ... ml&h=62192


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 5, 2010)

Fawlty Towers is the best.

I have the DVDs of all 12 of them.


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## Animus (Dec 5, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Dec 06 said:


> Animus, do you even own any EW products?
> 
> Just so you know, there's been a major kracking problem in our industry related to the iLok. This is not the usual thing, it's a big disaster.
> 
> ...



Yeah if you have followed the arc of this thread you would know I own Hollywood Strings, and I am being critical of being charged for a rompler/bugfixes when I just bought the damn thing for $1500 and now they are going to want another $100+ probably. I was hesitant to buy any PLAY libs due to it's notorious status for being a bugfest across the internet. Hearing that PLAY support will end and you won't get anymore fixes unless you pay for Play II wasn't a very encouraging sign to me after I took a chance on Play because I thought HS sounded superb. It's not the money but the principle of the matter.

btw I wasn't responding to the ilok thing; I use Windows anyways.


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## snowleopard (Dec 6, 2010)

This seems as much an issue of semantics and expectations as anything. As long as the next version of Play (3.0?) is considered a full upgrade with a small price, things should work out okay. 

If Nick, Doug and the others make enough money to buy Lamborghinis, I say more power to them. As long as they continue to put out great sample libraries and have as frequent of sales as they do. Oh, and share the wealth with their employees.


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## alligatorlizard (Dec 6, 2010)

Very much looking forward to the brass library! Apologies if I've missed this info elsewehere, but is there any estimate of a release date (other than sometime in 2011)? And will this feature solo instruments?

(+1 for Faulty Towers btw)


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## EvilDragon (Dec 6, 2010)

Animus @ 6.12.2010 said:


> Nick Phoenix @ Sun Dec 05 said:
> 
> 
> > 64 bit mac support has been done for 2 years but PACE has been unable to complete their end. We need copy protection, so we can stay in business. Go to KVR or some of these other forums and EW products are completely absent from discussion. How is it that the number one selling sample developer is absent from discussion? Answer: copy protection. We haven't been cracked yet. most people are using pirated software and we can't afford to let that happen to us, when we spend huge sums on libraries like HS.
> ...



True, if anything, it's pretty evident that KvR is strictly prohibitive of pirating discussions, and users who turn out to give themselves out as users of pirated software get banned pretty darn fast.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 6, 2010)

I think you take Nick's point, though, right EvilDragon?


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## Ed (Dec 6, 2010)

EvilDragon @ Mon Dec 06 said:


> True, if anything, it's pretty evident that KvR is strictly prohibitive of pirating discussions, and users who turn out to give themselves out as users of pirated software get banned pretty darn fast.



Because people using pirated software immediately, compulsively, admit it? I don't see the point in disagreeing with Nick on this, pirated software is an issue in every software industry and I hear, the music industry. If you accept reality and are trying to find out how much your software is pirated, I think Nick's logic is totally justified. Saying its wrong just because you don't want to cause offence is irrelevant.


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## EvilDragon (Dec 6, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ 6.12.2010 said:


> I think you take Nick's point, though, right EvilDragon?



I do, I am not discrediting his point of view. However, there are two sides to every coin, as always.


I wonder what will EW when PLAY eventually gets cracked, and sooner or later it is bound to happen, as it happens with pretty much almost anything out there... Changing protection scheme seems easy to do, however it's introducing more expenses and in general it's the users who get that broken over their backs...


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## Animus (Dec 6, 2010)

I agree the ability to readily get updates and more importantly get tech support are great incentives to not pirate. That's why this pay for Play update shit is so annoying, and honestly doesn't reward loyal customers and actually encourages piracy.


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## StrangeCat (Dec 6, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Sun Dec 05 said:


> Love Faulty Towers or Farty Towels
> 
> Not everyone on KVR is a pirate. of course. We have done studies though and piracy is pretty out of control. KVR is a good example because I see discussions of Cinematic Strings and LASS there, but not HS. Draw your own conclusions.
> 
> ...



I agree on all of this. If you have ever heard this people talk it goes something like this: "I don't have the money so why should I not be able to use there so called Library, not everyone is rich you know something cost just to much money." Right so the argument is I am should be able to use anything even though I can't afford it.

and the above quotes is from actual post. That is Net Psychology, things are on the net so there free I can download them bla bla bla bla....retards.


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## Ed (Dec 6, 2010)

Animus @ Mon Dec 06 said:


> I agree the ability to readily get updates and more importantly get tech support are great incentives to not pirate. That's why this pay for Play update [email protected]#t is so annoying, and honestly doesn't reward loyal customers and actually encourages piracy.



I tell what you annoys me, its when devs lock their Kontakt players like Symphobia 2. If anyone comes out with some unlocking "program" for it, I'd use it in a second. I'll still buy it anyway as I need/want it, but its the only thing that makes me hate it at the same time. Similarly, I know composers that use key-gens for software they bought in order to be able to reinstall all their software without filling in forms all day.


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## snowleopard (Dec 6, 2010)

But how much are we talking here for the full upgrade to the next Play? Is it $29? Or $129? Also, just what exactly is it going to accomplish? How much of an upgrade is it? 

Agree with Ed otherwise. We've had so many threads on pirating already. Sucks this thread has been derailed into that.


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## Ashermusic (Dec 6, 2010)

StrangeCat @ Mon Dec 06 said:


> Nick Phoenix @ Sun Dec 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Love Faulty Towers or Farty Towels
> ...




Welcome to the Age of Entitlement.


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## Dan Mott (Dec 6, 2010)

I've given EW a good 5000 of my money. I'm proud :D o-[][]-o


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## José Herring (Dec 6, 2010)

StrangeCat @ Mon Dec 06 said:


> Nick Phoenix @ Sun Dec 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Love Faulty Towers or Farty Towels
> ...



It's true. I heard one of these pirating retards talking at a party I was at one day. Talking all night about his right to "try before you buy" and all that stuff. It might of been ok, but I seriously doubt that he had any intention of buying after his self imposed fully functional trail period. I told him that I thought it was totally unfair to those who actually buy their stuff. He looked at me like I was totally uncool.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 6, 2010)

I have the same sort of discussions with younger composers I run into who use cracked software all the time. I recently bought Ozone 4-guy is in my studio, sees the box and says "Oh, I have that". I said, "Yeah, but I bought it". He gave me the smirk-the one you know means you're old and uncool and don't understand that software should be free.

As a composer, I find copy protection frustrating, but I definitely understand the developers' point.


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## Pietro (Dec 6, 2010)

Am I the only one to feel pretty comfortable about dongle protection?

I guess, that's because they are all stationary, and I don't need them mobile, and I just keep them plugged in, and safe from damage.

- Piotr


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## Rob Elliott (Dec 6, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Mon Dec 06 said:


> I have the same sort of discussions with younger composers I run into who use cracked software all the time. I recently bought Ozone 4-guy is in my studio, sees the box and says "Oh, I have that". I said, "Yeah, but I bought it". He gave me the smirk-the one you know means you're old and uncool and don't understand that software should be free.
> 
> As a composer, I find copy protection frustrating, but I definitely understand the developers' point.




Totally agree with this assessment and this *same *composer writes a cue that he doesn't get paid for (ASCAP/BMI) and he is whining for a month or longer - but doesn't think twice about stealing someone else intellectual property. Thieves get what they get - eventually. It is simple - 'what goes around comes around.' Or perhaps thought of another way - 'that which you are seeking is seeking you with equal intent.'

Sorry for the vent.


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## JonFairhurst (Dec 6, 2010)

Pietro @ Mon Dec 06 said:


> Am I the only one to feel pretty comfortable about dongle protection?



Personally, I prefer the dongle solution to install/authenticate solutions. I feel more confident that I can actually move my software without the codes falling between the cracks. It's easy to move a dongle to another computer. I always feel uneasy when I click a "de-authenticate" button, like I might not ever get it back.


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## MichaelJM (Dec 6, 2010)

Pietro @ Mon Dec 06 said:


> Am I the only one to feel pretty comfortable about dongle protection?
> 
> I guess, that's because they are all stationary, and I don't need them mobile, and I just keep them plugged in, and safe from damage.
> 
> - Piotr



The dongle solution is a good one. It is convenient, but for my setup, I have to be very careful to keep track of it. (It's not stationary) I've lost it once, and if I lose it again I'm out $750. If the actual piece of plastic were worth a little less then that, I'd be totally fine with it.

If that's what it takes for developers to keep people from stealing their products though, I'm all for it.


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## Nick Phoenix (Dec 7, 2010)

zvenx @ Mon Dec 06 said:


> Quite Frankly I think the perception of East West as a company vs. AudioBros and Cinematic strings play a big part in how often it is discussed at KVR...
> 
> rsp





And everyone in Jamaica smokes weed. >8o


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## zvenx (Dec 7, 2010)

Nick I assume your point is either stereotypes/generalisations are wrong or not everyone is the same?
Don't follow...... Whether deserved or not, many ppl have a very negative impression of East West.... you don't even have to go to KVR to see that...
rsp


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## Ashermusic (Dec 7, 2010)

I have no problem with either dongle or challenge and response if they are done right.
My only problem with iLOk is that Pace is taking so long to get us a 64 bit driver for the Mac.

Spectrasonics challenge/response is a breeze and gets you going literally in minutes.

The devil is in the execution.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 7, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Tue Dec 07 said:


> I have no problem with either dongle or challenge and response if they are done right.
> My only problem with iLOk is that Pace is taking so long to get us a 64 bit driver for the Mac.
> 
> Spectrasonics challenge/response is a breeze and gets you going literally in minutes.
> ...



And in the tolerance and respect.

Spectrasonics assumes your honesty, it seems. I have needed various authorizations over the years due to various drive crashes or upgrades, changes of computers, etc, and have NEVER had a problem. Ever.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 7, 2010)

As to EW, I intend to reiterate my basic point until ever *I* am sick of it.

The work is awesome. The sampling , creativity, usefulness of the stuff Nick as done over the years is amazing, and I have nothing but admiration for it. I own a bunch of EW collections.

Certain things rankle-the execution of Play has been slow and painful for users, the WB has always been dodgy, and there has been a fair amount of overpromising and under delivering, or VERY late delivering. All of which would be considered business as usual to some extent ( software companies live and die on capital influx, so they sometimes have to get early returns on investment whether the stuff is ready or not. The oversensitivity is what drives me crazy, personally.


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## Ashermusic (Dec 7, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Tue Dec 07 said:


> As to EW, I intend to reiterate my basic point until ever *I* am sick of it. The oversensitivity is what drives me crazy, personally.



I dunno, Larry. 

My wife, who is a somewhat sensitive person once said to me, "Have you ever noticed that most of the people who accuse me of being too sensitive are massively insensitive?"

Just messin' with ya, bro.


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## Dan Mott (Dec 7, 2010)

zvenx @ Wed Dec 08 said:


> I hear you...... the minority are very vocal though...and I must tell you that today for instance on another forum, I did ear my grievances with play. I just switched from XP SP3 to W7 64 bit and the only plugin that gave me consistent problems to install out of maybe 50 or more plugins was PLAY... It didn't like I understand that I had a later Pace version than what came with 2.0.25 or whatever the latest version is... it kept asking me if I want to keep the newer ones and I kept saying yes and it kept crashing.... finally after hours of doing the same thing and expecting a different result  (yes I know the implications of that) I decided to let it overwrite the newer pace stuff.. it then installed and I had to reupdate my pace stuff after.....times like that I wished everyone would just use Kontakt.. anyway.. as others have said you make superb groundbreaking products....and we are all very grateful for that.....
> rsp
> 
> edit: am I losing my mind? I am sure Nick had responded to me above this post.
> rsp




Yep. Funny thing that. Now I always overwrite the pace stuff and it installes correctly.


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## a.leung (Dec 7, 2010)

zvenx @ Tue Dec 07 said:


> I hear you...... the minority are very vocal though...and I must tell you that today for instance on another forum, I did ear my grievances with play. I just switched from XP SP3 to W7 64 bit and the only plugin that gave me consistent problems to install out of maybe 50 or more plugins (snip)



Only 50 eh? Try doing that with 600-1200. You will find many more uncooperative plugs. :/


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## zvenx (Dec 7, 2010)

it may be closer to a 100, but didn't count. but yikes 600-1200? damn I would be on one OS (unless it is a mac) for Decades 
rsp


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## zvenx (Dec 7, 2010)

Also I took the opportunity with the migration to remove plugins I really don't use.
rsp


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 7, 2010)

zvenx @ Wed Dec 08 said:


> edit: am I losing my mind? I am sure Nick had responded to me above this post.
> rsp



No, you're not losing your mind - it was a good reply too.

Hmmm.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 9, 2010)

Anyway, back the point of the thread - Play 2.1 with integrated WB is out in 1-2 weeks....

http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/show ... st&t=32219

....and breathe out.


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## Nick Phoenix (Dec 11, 2010)

You are being way too sensitive about this. KVR is a big forum with more young people, and simply more people with lower budgets. So there are a lot of users there that have some pirated software. that's a fact. It's not a criticism of KVR or the people that post there. I don't really even blame people for pirating software. people watch out for themselves and if they can download free stuff, they will often find some justification. So keep your pants on lads! It's just painfully obvious to me that some software actually gets an Internet PR boost because of all the stolen versions floating around.


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## Ed (Dec 11, 2010)

Rob Elliott @ Mon Dec 06 said:


> It is simple - 'what goes around comes around.'



I dont think thats true at all, but that's my view.


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## standalone (Dec 11, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Mon Dec 06 said:


> Not everyone on KVR is a pirate. of course. We have done studies though and piracy is pretty out of control. KVR is a good example because I see discussions of Cinematic Strings and LASS there, but not HS. Draw your own conclusions.



I have drawn my own conclusions, but as I would hate to be banned with my first post here I will keep them for myself.

I have made searchs with the terms "LASS" and "Cinematic Strings" at the KvR's "Samples" sub-forum. Almost all the threads where those two products have been mentioned were started by their developers. Is that a good explanation for you Mr. Nick Phoenix?. Still, "Hollywood Strings" is discussed like any other library, even if no one from EW is active at KvR and almost no one in the forum can afford it. So the statement on which you base your libel is broadly incorrect, Mr. Phoenix.

Yes, libel. People at KvR pay for their software, for their music and for their food, Mr. Phoenix, even if you don't want to know about it.

As I wish to be supportive I'm going to explain to you the series of (legitimate) business decisions that have led your company to have only a marginal presence at KvR.

First (it does sound silly), you decided to make samples. KvR is mainly an electronic music forum and most of the people there only use samples as a complement inside their music. Many of them just hate samples and even presets in soft synths. The idea that "if you don't design your own sounds you are not a real musician" is shared by many.

Second. You decided to aim for the Pro market. As stated by others here, the average kvrian is a hobbist or a semi-pro. Your prices use to be out of the scope of the majority. 

Third. Most of your products are specialized. As I said before, the people at KvR that do work with samples use them mostly as a spice for their music, they search for all-around products or small sets. Goliath is probably the most popular EW's library there.

Fourth. You decided to release a closed platform. As I said kvrians pride themselves for making their own sounds and they ask for a high level of tweakability in their instruments. Also, the possibility of importing their own samples is always the first request when dealing with sample based instruments. Ask Erik Persing about this, he ventures into KvR jungle from time to time.

Fifth. Dongle.........and Pace. People there hate dongles and specially Pace's drivers that are considered worst than a virus. Laptops are very popular among electronic musicians because they can use them for gigs. The combination of few USB ports and the danger of loosing the dongle on the road is killer for them.

Sixth. Play's bad reputation. Self-explanatory, and even worst in cheap and/or old computers, that are the norm at KvR.

Seventh. EW's support's bad reputation. Deseved or not, people there rate it poorly.

Eighth. Pseudo-forum. Used to the practical lack of censorship found in KvR, except for piracy matters (yes, the only taboo there, Mr. Phoenix), your heavily controlled and, for what we are begining to know this days, heavily manipulated forum is a joke and a scandal by KvR standards. Developers and customers (CUSTOMERS.......CUSTOMERS, are you hearing Mr. Phoenix?), are equal and follow the same rules. Sockpuppetry is a clear cause for being banned, just like piracy. You know why I'm mentioning this, right?.


I could go on but there is no use. KvR is exactly the opposite of what you picture it to be. It's the place in internet where the piracy is more hatred and prosecuted, both by mods and members. And this is acknowledged by ALL the developers that dwell there, as Koolkeys said, dozens of them.

You remind me of those guys that badmouth the women that reject them. I have no respect for them and I have no respect for you.



Sincerely yours, Kvr member 180187, "standalone".


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## Ashermusic (Dec 11, 2010)

Standalone there is too much to address in your post so I will just comment on #5.

MOST (not all) people at KVR who go on and on about how much they hate dongles (and challenge/response as well) probably hate them because they have a sense of entitlement that leads them to believe that any software they want they should be able to have for free.

It is perfectly reasonable to be mildly annoyed by certain forms of copy protection but anyone who foams at the mouth about it is probably a pirate.

"Mr. Nick Phoenix" may overstate it a little but he has the broad picture correct.


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## standalone (Dec 11, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sat Dec 11 said:


> MOST (not all) people at KVR who go on and on about how much they hate dongles (and challenge/response as well) probably hate them because they have a sense of entitlement that leads them to believe that any software they want they should be able to have for free.



That's an incredibly frivolous statement to make, and as far as I know absolutely false. Just search the names of this people in the "Market Place" section of KvR. You will find them there legitimatelly buying and selling licenses for their software. I have already checked this many times.

KvR is not a warez kidz forum. There can be thieves like in any other place, but the preassure against them is harder than elsewhere.


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## Ashermusic (Dec 11, 2010)

standalone @ Sat Dec 11 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sat Dec 11 said:
> 
> 
> > MOST (not all) people at KVR who go on and on about how much they hate dongles (and challenge/response as well) probably hate them because they have a sense of entitlement that leads them to believe that any software they want they should be able to have for free.
> ...



It is qualified by the second statement I believe that those "who doth protest too much" have a reason they do so.

The same is true on any forum. KVR is IMHO one of the more obnoxious forums on the net, but if you enjoy them, continue to do so. I will continue to avoid them.


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## standalone (Dec 11, 2010)

Qualified by a belief?. I don't buy it thank you.

And thank you for showing your bias in your last statement. It was pretty obvious anyway.


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## wesbender (Dec 11, 2010)

standalone @ Sat Dec 11 said:


> Eighth. Pseudo-forum.Used to the practical lack of censorship found in KvR, except for piracy matters (yes, the only taboo there, Mr. Phoenix), your heavily controlled and, for what we are begining to know this days, heavily manipulated forum is a joke and a scandal by KvR standards. Developers and customers (CUSTOMERS.......CUSTOMERS, are you hearing Mr. Phoenix?), are equal and follow the same rules. Sockpuppetry is a clear cause for being banned, just like piracy. You know why I'm mentioning this, right?.



Not wanting to get too involved in this little scuffle, but let me just say something regarding this quote.

I'm presuming you're talking about the soundsonline forum?

First off, it still absolutely baffles me that people bitch about the censorship there. IT'S A DEVELOPER'S FORUM. They can make whatever rules they want and it's only understandable that they don't want the discussion/promotion of competing products there (and really, discussion IS promotion, whether it's meant to be or not).

Also, there are some extremely friendly and helpful people who post there. It's second only to this place for having the most helpful VI/sampling community. So calling it "heavily manipulated" and "a joke" is rather rude and quite untrue, especially to the members there who spend a lot of their valuable time helping other people.

Of course, if you're referring to some other Nick Phoenix related forum in the deep recesses of the internet that I'm not aware of, then you can disregard everything I've said.


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## standalone (Dec 11, 2010)

I'm referring to this:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/5519826-post11.html


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## Ashermusic (Dec 11, 2010)

standalone @ Sat Dec 11 said:


> Qualified by a belief?. I don't buy it thank you.
> 
> And thank you for showing your bias in your last statement. It was pretty obvious anyway.



If by "bias" you mean that my time spent there made it obvious to me that it would not be time well spent to continue? Yes.

Some things we know just because we know because it is obvious. We did not need Ricky Lopez to come out of the closet to know he was gay. We did not need to have the plastic surgeons say so to know that Cher had lots of plastic surgery. In the same way if we visit a forum that has a high percentage of hobbyists complaining vociferously about copy protection, we know without proving it there is also a high(er) percentage of software pirates because it is obvious. That doesn't mean we accuse them willy nilly but Nick's assessment is not far off IMHO.


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## wesbender (Dec 11, 2010)

standalone @ Sat Dec 11 said:


> I'm referring to this:
> 
> http://www.gearslutz.com/board/5519826-post11.html



Ah, yeah, I remember reading that a while back.

Still doesn't change what I originally said though. While you may not approve of some of their conduct (I don't either, at least not with what happened in that thread), there's still a huge amount of kind and helpful people on the SO forums, and it's an insult to them to criticize the forum as a whole. Especially since only a small fraction of the forums are EW praise threads. Most of it is a wide array of people genuinely helping each other.


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## EthanStoller (Dec 11, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sat Dec 11 said:


> We did not need Ricky Lopez to come out of the closet to know he was gay.


Ricky Lopez is gay? You sure about that?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIACndVr4Zc


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## jleckie (Dec 11, 2010)

lol. Well "Mr. Standalone" I cant help but think how ironic it is "Mr. Standalone" that one would keep using quotes for another's name while you yourself remain so carefully hidden in your anonymity status. :/

Man-if I had one wish for forums that would be to adopt the facebook standard of having to actually tell people your a human being and have some form of contact information available. I know FB's not perfect but it's a step in the right direction.

AS far as KVR is concerned its filled with pirates. 'nuf said... 

Peace.


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## Nick Phoenix (Dec 11, 2010)

Standalone, There must be something about me that inspires such utter contempt. I guess I need to figure out what it is. Some of what you say has a little truth to it, but you say in such a venomous tone. 

PS These forums are really not to vent a lifetime of frustration against your boss and former girlfriends. maybe do that face to face with the actual offenders.


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## Nick Phoenix (Dec 11, 2010)

I reread your post and have come to the conclusion that there is no reasoning with you. I never said anything bad about KVR. I was simply pointing out a piracy situation that is very real and everyone knows it, but you apparently. For some the only glimmer of joy in life is to lash out at those who have some degree of success. I am truly sad for you and hope that you find some happiness. as my business is affected by me posting here and it never ends well. I am forced to end my posting here. It makes me sad because I like to talk honestly about things. What I did exactly to deserve no respect as you put it, is beyond me. 
Apologies to Fredrick and all the great people on this forum and all the QL users, but this is too much for me. I am erasing any trace of VI and all the other forums. the end.


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## Dan Mott (Dec 11, 2010)

Ahh. Don't go. Nick. You actually have huge fans on this forum, seriously.

:(


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## koolkeys (Dec 11, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Sat Dec 11 said:


> You are being way too sensitive about this. KVR is a big forum with more young people, and simply more people with lower budgets. So there are a lot of users there that have some pirated software. that's a fact. It's not a criticism of KVR or the people that post there. I don't really even blame people for pirating software. people watch out for themselves and if they can download free stuff, they will often find some justification. So keep your pants on lads! It's just painfully obvious to me that some software actually gets an Internet PR boost because of all the stolen versions floating around.


Nobody said that there aren't illegal users there. What WAS said is that just because your products don't seem as popular there, doesn't mean it's because people there couldn't download it for free. It's absurd to even make that type of statement. 

FACT- KVR is loaded with people who not only bought your software, but use it every day. Your software is discussed daily. But instead of opening your eyes to see that, you walk away. Why? Why not engage with the KVR audience instead of painting them with such a broad brush? Young? Really? Do you know that? Does that make them illegal downloaders of software?

Maybe the reason people don't "like" you as much at KVR is because of the questionable moves that have been made, such as is mentioned in the thread I linked to. Why not address those things? 

Why does EW have shills(who have admitted to doing it) post on forums like Gearslutz to try and dispute any bad thing that comes out about the company? Why does your company delete posts and ban users who say negative things about your software on your forums? Then your employees come into threads and tell people to go to your forums to find the "real" story of how satisfied people are?

Why does this all have to happen? Honestly, I don't have anything against you. I don't know you well enough. I HIGHLY respect your work, as it's some of the best in the business. No doubt about it. I'm YOUR customer. But instead of singling out places like KVR where there are tens of thousands of LEGIT software users, many of which are YOUR customers, why not consider some of these things? 

I think you would be better off that way. I'm not taking it personally, or getting my panties in a wad. I'm just honestly curious why things have to be this way. 

I don't want you to leave any forum. I love having developers around various forums. I hope you stay, and I hope you can address these things. I assure you, KVR is a great place full of people who would love to have you around. It's a more developer friendly forum than any other on the planet(actually, probably tied with VI-Control which rocks!).

Brent


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## koolkeys (Dec 11, 2010)

By the way, it would be easy to label me as disgruntled. I'm not. I like your products. I don't own many, but those I do are fully legit, and high quality. 

I have nothing personal against you Nick. I mean that sincerely. My only issue is with the assumptions that are made without actual evidence. I would never claim that KVR doesn't have warez users. Of course it does. As does this one, no doubt about it. But there are sales being LOST there because of the things I mentioned, and that is sad. It's sad that a developer will cut and run because of some adversity, when it's entirely possible for them to see success and an expanded customer base if they just stick around and address things.

What you do is up to you, obviously. But KVR is a great place if you know how to weed out the bad(which is present in any forum with that many users). I don't like everything about it either, but I do know how genuine most users are there. And I do know how successful many devs have been by having a presence there instead of avoiding them because of preconceived ideas about the userbase.

I wish you luck and success, regardless of what you do. But I hope you take this all in the right light.

Brent


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## williamrice (Dec 11, 2010)

Many points resounding in this thread with me. From BOTH sides!

1) I love my Hollywood Strings which I bought a couple of months ago.

2) I REALLY appreciate the fact that the software I payed ~£1k for in order to get a bit ahead of the game, is unlikely to become available to everyone for free.

However, the fact that we're still waiting for PACE is a total pain in the arse, because I'm stuck inside an ~8GB Ram bubble with HS hosted as a 32bit .au before I get consistent crashes (and 8GB is not a lot of RAM to HS); I just hope that PACE get their act together and a 64bit .au is ready as soon as possible. It will be like Christmas all over again! I can't wait for the day! At the moment I'm hoping that PLAY 2.1 is the 64bit .au... but that's looking unlikely.

3) I know that PLAY has quite a few issues to be ironed out... (Namely... no 64bit .au; poor streaming and loading performance compared to Kontakt, even running off an SSD; clicks and pops if the streaming engine cannot keep up; poorly documented and un-customisable sample buffering & RAM usage behaviour). But hopefully these issues will be addressed in PLAY 2.1 and PLAY Pro. I can't wait! And the quality of the samples does make it worth the hassle of them not being programmed in Kontakt.

4) I think it would be fine for EW to charge for PLAY Pro, but unacceptable to charge for PLAY 2.1

5) I have had one of my own threads seemingly removed from the SO forum before I got the chance to reply; the thread was regarding the way that (at least hosted in Logic) PLAY will degrade to clicks & pops when the streaming engine cannot keep up, rather than degrading to silence. My post was quite negative in tone because clicks and pops end up as bursts of noise once they've gone through my IR verbs... and when you're working hard on a large project, it's rather unpleasant and stressful to get blasted with noise... none the less, I think that removing my thread because it was negative is unacceptable.

Here is googles cache of the now removed thread: http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...d+pops&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari

I now know that the clicks and pops are not directly related to purely the number of streaming voices, but also the number of loaded patches... it all seems to fundamentally be down the the limitations of the 32bit .au - if I only load individual patches in a project, I'm fine, but get slow load times; if I try and load up a reasonably comprehensive template of HS into VEP, even though I still have free RAM, I run into clicks & pops at around 50 streaming voices...

6) I cannot understand why Nick would make sweeping statements about the members of an online community... why not simply go onto a torrent tracker if you want to know what's been pirated and what hasn't?

7) A note for Nick if he's still reading: I will not buy any more of the Hollywood series until the 64bit PLAY .au is available.

8 ) I really do value open communication from developers! So please Nick... don't leave! I'm not trying to be overly negative, although it may seem that way. I do love the samples that EW are coming up with! I wouldn't have bought HS if I didn't! I really hope EW keep doing what they do... but I do think that since they've gone down the route of programming their own sampler... they need to put a lot of effort into making sure it is as good as the samples are... and it currently is not, and that needs to be fixed. I do however fully support their decision to go down the PLAY/PACE route, because to me, the fact that not everyone has these libraries IS significant! We just need to get this 64bit .au and some work needs to be done to get PLAY working as well as Kontakt and all will be sweet again int the world and I can go ahead and spent £££ on the rest of the Hollywood series :D


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## Ashermusic (Dec 11, 2010)

EthanStoller @ Sat Dec 11 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sat Dec 11 said:
> 
> 
> > We did not need Ricky Lopez to come out of the closet to know he was gay.
> ...



Oops, senior moment. I meant Ricky Martin. :oops:


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## MichaelJM (Dec 11, 2010)

williamrice @ Sat Dec 11 said:


> 5) I have had one of my own threads seemingly removed from the SO forum before I got the chance to reply; the thread was regarding the way that (at least hosted in Logic) PLAY will degrade to clicks & pops when the streaming engine cannot keep up, rather than degrading to silence. My post was quite negative in tone because clicks and pops end up as bursts of noise once they've gone through my IR verbs... and when you're working hard on a large project, it's rather unpleasant and stressful to get blasted with noise... none the less, I think that removing my thread because it was negative is unacceptable.
> 
> Here is googles cache of the now removed thread: http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...d+pops&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari



Just to let you know, your thread is still in the forum. You posted it in the General Discussion section, and a forum admin moved it to the Support section.

http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/show ... hp?t=32030
If you haven't registered for support, you won't see the above link.

By the way, ditto what Dan-Jay said.

I always appreciate hearing from developers. Sorry to see you go Nick.


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## williamrice (Dec 11, 2010)

Thanks for clearing that up Michael. I wasn't aware that I had to register separately for the support forum; I used the search function on the general forum fairly thoroughly to no avail, and concluded that my post must have been deleted.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 11, 2010)

Oh no, not again.

Two sad facts of life. One - some people on forums are needlessly rude, personal and combative, obscuring genuine points they may be trying to make. Two - some other people are too thin-skinned to just ignore such people.


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## dedersen (Dec 12, 2010)

Wow, this thread certainly took a wrong turn somewhere. I'm sorry to see you go, Nick, and hope that you can somehow be convinced otherwise. As I mentioned in another, more positive-minded thread on VI, I love the fact that developers hang around on forums. It adds a lot to the community. So stick around, remember that here as in most of life, the most vocal people rarely represent the majority.


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## standalone (Dec 12, 2010)

jleckie @ Sun Dec 12 said:


> AS far as KVR is concerned its filled with pirates. 'nuf said...



This is a calunny and nothing else than that. Tell me, all the KvR members that also post at this forum are pirates?. Most of them?. Or one suddenly becomes honest just by registering at this forum?. Was I a thief and yesterday I turned into a decent person, just after posting here?.

And about, "those that complain about copy protection are surely pirates"...that's perfectly laughable. Why a warez user would complain about this if almost everything has been cracked?. EW's Orchestral libraries are not avaliable?, they could download anything for Kontakt. Do you thing a warez kid would notice the difference?.

In KvR's effects section, for instance, there are tons of threads about freeware and almost nothing about Waves and Soundtoys. Why would they prefer to discuss plugins made with Synthedit or Synthmaker when they are thieves that can download the best plugins?

I got the impression (probably I'm wrong) , that all the anti-KvR stances here and all the slandering are nothing but pure elitism.


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## gmet (Dec 12, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ 12th December 2010 said:


> PS These forums are really not to vent a lifetime of frustration against your boss and former girlfriends. maybe do that face to face with the actual offenders.



Nick,

I'm afraid this is the inevitable consequence of the Corporate Censorship/shilling used at Sounds-Online. You, unfortunately and unwillingly, became the scape-goat over here.

Justin


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## standalone (Dec 12, 2010)

dedersen @ Sun Dec 12 said:


> the most vocal people rarely represent the majority.



I agree, those that accuse others of being criminals without showing a single proof are, fortunately, a minority.


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## TheUnfinished (Dec 12, 2010)

Blimey, there's never any middle ground on the internet is there?

I'm a member of both KVR and VI Control and enjoy them both. I get different things from them because they are different communities and their outlook and topics of discussion are different.

Some of the in-depth analysis of sample libraries I get here, I wouldn't get at KVR. And likewise, learning about new bits of free or low-cost instruments and effects and being able to chat with their developers openly is something I enjoy at KVR, and wouldn't expect to get here.

I hope to continue enjoying both forums and the information and inspiration (and let's be honest, procrastination!) they give me without having to read ill-thought through comments from either side trashing each other. It doesn't make anyone look intelligent.

And I've just bought Silk, so stop putting the willies up me about using it! :? 

Matt


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## Coil (Dec 12, 2010)

mh, i like kvr, gearslutz and also vi-control and it`s good to have different "free" platforms.
it`s just the pure fear of some "big players" that they don`t have controll over the postings in there.

btw. it`s also good to have some alternatives to east west :wink:


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## zvenx (Dec 12, 2010)

Apparently they are being discussed at kvr:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

rsp


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## tripit (Dec 12, 2010)

Again?? I hate to see you go Nick....again. 

For what it's worth, IMO, it's not something in you that brings on these s&$^ storms, instead it's EW PR practices. Seriously, I've never seen a company in this industry with such PR problems. If you really want to find some answers there's where you'll find them - provided that EW can even admit they have PR issues.


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## Animus (Dec 12, 2010)

tripit @ Sun Dec 12 said:


> Again?? I hate to see you go Nick....again.
> 
> For what it's worth, IMO, it's not something in you that brings on these s&$^ storms, instead it's EW PR practices. Seriously, I've never seen a company in this industry with such PR problems. If you really want to find some answers there's where you'll find them - provided that EW can even admit they have PR issues.




Well, it's stuff like charging for a PLAY update mentioned in this thread that causes them bad PR imo.


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## gmet (Dec 12, 2010)

John,

Yes EW/QL made a brave decision to develop PLAY and I’m sure that this has boosted their sales by defeating piracy. I just wonder how much their continued ‘bloody-mindedness’, broken promises and bad PR has cost in terms of lost sales? They clearly have not learned any lessons from the negative reactions over two years ago.



JohnG @ 12th December 2010 said:


> And yet it's always EW that some users seem to feel free to unleash on



Probably because there is no other company that continues to treat it's _paying_ customers so appallingly; with insults, censorship, banning (which Doug keeps denying) and most recently the revelations regarding shilling.

I'm sorry to disagree, however having been on the receiving end, I have no sympathy.

Justin


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## Animus (Dec 12, 2010)

JohnG @ Sun Dec 12 said:


> I would be truly astonished if the basic PLAY-as-simple-playback-engine becomes an extra cost for maintenance updates. But not a bit surprised to see EW charge for a version that has full-Kontakt-like capabilities. NI does, why wouldn't EW?



I wouldn't be so astonished. You heard it directly from the owner! It's more the principle of that matter than the actual money honestly that would be bother me. Personally, I think keyswitch/controller editing should be in standard Play without charge. Look at the standard Vienna Instruments, which I consider to be one of the best romplers out their.


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## Animus (Dec 12, 2010)

So I thought I had my Play HS issues licked as I got a i7 970 and moved HS over to my main machine and running VE Pro locally. Things were going great in terms of playback for the past week and half or so. Just in the past day and a half the Nuendo cpu meter starting getting real erratic and jumpy, occasionally spiking; the Task Manager cpu is only at 30 percent or so. Tried to track down the problem and of course by turning off Play the erratic cpu jumping went away. Play is absolutely unpredictable and I really hope this last "free" Play update fixes this shit or I will be pissed.


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## standalone (Dec 12, 2010)

JohnG @ Sun Dec 12 said:


> Does anyone seriously doubt that piracy of libraries is rampant?



No one. Why are you asking?.



JohnG @ Sun Dec 12 said:


> Does anyone think that he or she knows more about piracy than the developers?



Does anyone think that he or she knows more about what happens in my home than myself?.



JohnG @ Sun Dec 12 said:


> Before rushing to slag off a developer for making a generalised statement that may be true...



Or completely and disgustingly false.



JohnG @ Sun Dec 12 said:


> ...it is worth remembering that it's a personal opinion, but one very possibly better-informed than that of the average user.



It was an opinion about a collective of individuals to which I belong and he doesn't. My opinion about this is better informed than his. The only argument he slipped was "they ignore my product, so it's clear that they are pirates". An inmense amount of knowledge about piracy, indeed.



JohnG @ Sun Dec 12 said:


> Nick's not slandering an individual.



No, he is slandering one quarter million individuals, and more precisely all the individuals that commented about his competitors' products and not about his own.



JohnG @ Sun Dec 12 said:


> There are some websites on which there are a lot more "hint-hint" posts and allusions to illegally available or "heavily discounted" software.



And KvR is not one of them. A post like this rarely lasts more than five minutes and the author is always automatically banned. And let me say that it's always the forum members who alert the moderators about those activities. 



JohnG @ Sun Dec 12 said:


> Developers have a keen interest in knowing what they are talking about in this area, and Nick has been in the development business for a long time.



Nick knows nothing about KvR.



JohnG @ Sun Dec 12 said:


> And anyway, so what?



That sums it all nicely. It's not you who has been called a thief, so who cares?.


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## givemenoughrope (Dec 12, 2010)

It's hard to believe that this is the same guy that helped create HS; part of the reason I haven't purchased it.


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## Dan Mott (Dec 12, 2010)

givemenoughrope @ Mon Dec 13 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Sun Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > It's more of a loss for you not purchasing HS than it is for him.
> ...



Ok. Hmm.... I'll ask my self why..... because EW has people like you who shit all over them just for the sake of it because you think there's something wrong with their software or Nick removed your comment from soundsonline. Orrrrrrr you get annoyed at what they post, so then you act on some sort of revenge by choosing not to buy one of their products. 

People are angry maninly because EW software isn't working for them on their computers. It bloody well works for alot of people aswell you know. People just don't seek the help and decide to blame everything down EW way instead of maybe their specs are the issue, or maybe there's something else going wrong with their computer. Why don't these people just narrow the problem down.

People say EW has bad support. I think this is bullshit. You guys obviously do not know Mr Jay Coffman who helped me a crap load untill we narrowed down the problem. He emailed me personally, and not only that , I made the effort to call EW to sort out my problem and not troll all over a forum to get some attention.

I will admit I have had some hard times over at EW to sort out issues. I was removed from the soundsonline forums 3 times because I was expressing problems that no one had which I wanted to inform so I could see if people were having the same thing. I also think the Admin didn't like me very much, but I posted a PM to Doug and Nick and they seemed to have no issue with me. After I got removed, I called EW and we sorted out the issue. So from experience, It doesn't help anyone to say this stuff in a thread that's not even on EW site.

Your loss.


PS - If I seem like a prick to you, then it's because I'm very angry reading this thread. I will leave it now.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 12, 2010)

Just for the records, I only came to KVR years ago in order to get support for my _paid software _(around 15 _paid _softwares) and at the same time I hate the idea of pirating anything and as a consequence I like dongles.

Did I mention _paid _software (paid to developers that do their _support _via KVR?)

Maybe I forgot to say it but all the software was _paid_.


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## Joe S (Dec 12, 2010)

This is starting to remind me of the BMW car forum I sometimes post on. A few freaking idiotic and angry guys spoil all the fun. I guess they get a stiffy from it. It's not a bad thing to have developers posting here, you know. Confusious say: "Forum overrun by submentals soon kick the bucket."


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## Animus (Dec 12, 2010)

Dan-Jay @ Sun Dec 12 said:


> I will admit I have had some hard times over at EW to sort out issues. I was removed from the soundsonline forums 3 times because I was expressing problems that no one had which I wanted to inform so I could see if people were having the same thing. I also think the Admin didn't like me very much, but I posted a PM to Doug and Nick and they seemed to have no issue with me. After I got removed, I called EW and we sorted out the issue. So from experience, It doesn't help anyone to say this stuff in a thread that's not even on EW site.
> 
> Your loss.
> .



rotflmao


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## koolkeys (Dec 12, 2010)

Joe S @ Sun Dec 12 said:


> This is starting to remind me of the BMW car forum I sometimes post on. A few freaking idiotic and angry guys spoil all the fun. I guess they get a stiffy from it. It's not a bad thing to have developers posting here, you know. Confusious say: "Forum overrun by submentals soon kick the bucket."


Nice try, but responses like this are completely missing the point(almost as if you didn't actually READ what people have said). Stick up for EW if you want, but they dug their own hole. And I say this as a big fan of their work.

Brent


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## Animus (Dec 12, 2010)

Joe S @ Sun Dec 12 said:


> This is starting to remind me of the BMW car forum I sometimes post on. A few freaking idiotic and angry guys spoil all the fun. I guess they get a stiffy from it. It's not a bad thing to have developers posting here, you know. Confusious say: "Forum overrun by submentals soon kick the bucket."



And a forum overrun by shills and fanboys quickly turns into a circle jerk.


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## Dan Mott (Dec 12, 2010)

Animus @ Mon Dec 13 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Sun Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > I will admit I have had some hard times over at EW to sort out issues. I was removed from the soundsonline forums 3 times because I was expressing problems that no one had which I wanted to inform so I could see if people were having the same thing. I also think the Admin didn't like me very much, but I posted a PM to Doug and Nick and they seemed to have no issue with me. After I got removed, I called EW and we sorted out the issue. So from experience, It doesn't help anyone to say this stuff in a thread that's not even on EW site.
> ...



Yay. I'm glad I amused you!!!


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## Animus (Dec 12, 2010)

Dan-Jay @ Sun Dec 12 said:


> givemenoughrope @ Mon Dec 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Dan-Jay @ Sun Dec 12 said:
> ...



Why are you acting like it's all the user's computers in every case? Did you miss that EastWest recently admitted there was a problem with incessant calls on sample starts with Play and HS, and they are releasing an update that fixes the issue? These little clicks are what I have been reporting all a long. Obviously, it never was my computer and a problem with Play. :D


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## Dan Mott (Dec 12, 2010)

Animus @ Mon Dec 13 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Sun Dec 12 said:
> 
> 
> > givemenoughrope @ Mon Dec 13 said:
> ...




You never know man. If it's bothering you that much, just call them.

Anyway.

Love you.


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## Joe S (Dec 12, 2010)

I just don't see what you see. Seems like sounds online banned a few loudmouths and this is your revenge. looks like you are winning. meanwhile the rest of us actually trying to improve our craft, have to listen to you more and more and less and less of people that actually have some experience and knowledge.

Back on topic

I think that PLAY upgrades should be free. What happens when you buy a new product anyway? Obviously it would be a free PLAY update.


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## JohnG (Dec 12, 2010)

+1

This thread veers off the road too many times with rudeness. If someone has a problem, fine, but it needs to be expressed with some level of courtesy or we will have no developers here at all.

And besides, it's uncivilised, immature, ineffective, and churlish.


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