# Requiem - First Impressions



## stevenson-again (Jun 4, 2010)

congratulations to tonehammer for this mighty achievement.

i hate to say it, because along with every other VIer i love tonehammer and their approach to sampling generally, i think they have a bit of a way to go with this library yet - but these are just first impressions, so who knows what i will feel once i have lived with it for a while.

first - the sound (as you would expect from TH) is terrific. i love the 'inaccuracies' and the liveness of start of a note as the choir gathers the note together. it's not over done, but you can almost smell the body odour and the vapour rub in someones hand bag.

point by point here are the problems i have encountered on a quick mess around:

- some of the patches are a different octave transposition, meaning they are not consistent with the others. there maybe a reason for this, i don't know, but it should be easy to fix.

- the marcatos sound great but i was disappointed that they were set to release to the end of the sample. that means you have to adjust the release time yourself and then you just get a samplers ADSR. i would have loved release samples xfaded with the rest of the sample personally. i would have thought that would sound more natural.

- i was hoping for a patches that would have round robin syllables. instead you have to key switch them, and because you can't see what they all are at once (the individual syllables come up on the kontakt UI) you will have to memorize them or write them down.

- another strange one is with ranges. the most exciting parts of both male and female voices are right at the very top of them. i would have expected at least Bb for the ladies and A or Bb for the blokes. the patch 'mid-sustains-full legato-3 way' only goes to an E for the ladies, yet the blokes go down to C. actually there is a bug C#1 to C1 (actually it is one of the patches that are in a different transposition so it is actually C#0 and C0 when you load it) the legato sample comes from the ladies. you only here it if you go from C#1 to C1....guys...just so you know for the update!

some patches do go up high enough to keep me amused but others do not.

- similarly, i was really hoping for round robin syllables on sustains as well. i would like to dial in a patch singing sustained syllables that would switch around on their own, maybe with an option to randomize. i am not wild about keyswitching, but it could have been something whereby the round robin would start from the keyswitch assigned to the syllable. you do have the vowel switch around patches, but again you have to switch around with keyswitches.

- i know that it was never meant to be an SATB type library, and that suits me fine. i was quite happy to have women and men to create a short score, but i am a little disappointed some of the 'money' patches like the legato sustains weren't split up that way. odd too, when you think they are legato patches and as such are just a single voice at a time. it means those interesting patches probably won't get as much use as they deserve.

- my main problem is usability. it's fiddly. to create a deep and detailed choir sound will take a lot of programming which is at odds with the lump the men and women together approach. i only want to have a women and men track (soloists excepted of course) and get to everything i want via that. that requires the patches to be consistent so that i can switch articulations much as i would in an orchestral library, but its going to take a lot of effort boil everything down to that level of simplicity. the danger is that like VOTA i just won't bother and 90% of the library will go untouched.

i am going to have a go myself designing some macros in logic that might handle some of these problems. my overall feeling is the raw material is excellent but shoehorning it into my workflow is going to be extremely difficult.


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## RMWSound (Jun 4, 2010)

I agree with some of the concerns, though I don't feel I've had enoguh time with the Library to fully evaluate. 

One thing though... Is it possible to install the library in Kontakt so that it shows up in the "Libraries" view like Emotional Pianos can? As deep as the library is, it would be nice to be able to keep it organized in there, and I figured that since Pianos did, this would. Not a huge deal, but I pretty much expect this from any decent sized kontakt library at this point.

Also, how big of an issue is the watermarking when it comes to updates? Makes me wonder if an update is likely.


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## paoling (Jun 4, 2010)

I'm playing with the library now.. I agree with some of your issues; but I'm very fashinated by the sound. I can spend an hour enjoying to listen the words in extended sustains.. I also think that Kontakt does a great job in time-stretching the chants (to reasonable limits) without inserting artifacts, and it's not so buggy as written in the document section. 

I think there are lots of improvements that coulb be done in the future ; like the looping + release samples for marcatos (it shouldn't be so difficult I think). 

The quality of the samples is so shining, that I can imagine the lots of things you can do with them. My favourite would be a system to loop each vowel of the slow chants, using a key to advance them, and letting the user to change the notes during the chant. Anyone is a script master here?


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## stevenson-again (Jun 4, 2010)

> Also, how big of an issue is the watermarking when it comes to updates? Makes me wonder if an update is likely.



the samples are watermarked and i think we all agree the samples are absolutely fantastic. it's the programming that is perhaps version 1.0 (it must have been a mammoth job) and they will most definitely update those as there are some bugs.

likewise, i am quite sure if they want to include some edited or adjusted samples they could do that - it would only be a handful not the whole of the watermarked library.


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## stevenson-again (Jun 4, 2010)

another wee point - it would have been great to have the attack linked to velocity, so that lower velocities had slower attacks.


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## stevenson-again (Jun 4, 2010)

also - the staccato patch bizarrely has modwheel for volume. it should be velocity controlling volume. why was it done that way i wonder?

one thing i am having some success with is i have created a transformer to randomize the vowels in the multi-vowel patch, and it works to do the same thing with the staccato patch and then blend them.

but for some reason the equivalent men patch is very very low in volume compared to the women. it's quite odd. i having to put a big boost on it to get the dynamics to sound matched. its the mid-sustains-men-2way-vowel-select.

i know it sounds like it is a bit daft, but even with the vowels randomized and not matching the vowels of the staccato it does work to blend them, sufficiently for purpose anyway. i am mystified as to why TH didn't record sustained syllables - i think that is my chief issue with the library.


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## paoling (Jun 4, 2010)

I think that the marcato syllabes can be looped on the vowel in the same way that the long words do. Using the last consonant (if there is one) when you release the key.


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## Ed (Jun 4, 2010)

Im still downloading so cant back up anything in this thread.... but...



stevenson-again @ Fri Jun 04 said:


> also - the staccato patch bizarrely has modwheel for volume. it should be velocity controlling volume. why was it done that way i wonder?
> .



You mean its controlling volume or dynamics?

Also i was wondering how easy is it to play fast staccato passages? I know that was one of the selling points and one of the things I am most excited to try out.


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## stevenson-again (Jun 4, 2010)

> Alternative rather than replacement velocity patches would be good, as I could see people liking it.



for sure - and as it turns out convenient if you are blending in with the sustains.



> I'm sure the guys will tweak the programming, it is their biggest release after all.



i do hope so. i was thinking of a way to get around the problem of no syllable sustains would be if they were to blend/crossfade between the marcato syllables and the sustain vowels - a more artful way of doing what i am doing now with some success.

that way, you could create legato patches that have the syllable consonant start that don't play when you are changing notes melismatically. you get the legato effect *and* the marcato samples not playing so you get note joins.

another minor/major annoyance is that they have soft ooh and oh samples which are causing problems with my key switch randomizer, so i have yet another transformer to transpose just those notes E-1 and F-1. personally i think i would have preferred those samples to be part of the ooh samples and velocity layered.


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## stevenson-again (Jun 4, 2010)

> I think that the marcato syllabes can be looped on the vowel in the same way that the long words do. Using the last consonant (if there is one) when you release the key.



sorry paoling - not quite sure i follow....


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## Stephen Baysted (Jun 4, 2010)

Great work TH. Excellent library; sounds marvellous and seems very dynamic and flexible =o 

Cheers

Stephen


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## paoling (Jun 4, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Fri Jun 04 said:


> > I think that the marcato syllabes can be looped on the vowel in the same way that the long words do. Using the last consonant (if there is one) when you release the key.
> 
> 
> 
> sorry paoling - not quite sure i follow....



In you take, for example the Far_poly-sustains_men_slow_2-layer, you'll see that words like Adoramus are sustained on the last "U", using the last consonant "S" as a release trigger. The U is looped until you release the key.

Adoramuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuus <-----example! :D 

I think that the same thing could be done for marcato sillabes, looping the sound on the vowel and using the last consonant as a release trigger.


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## TimNielsen (Jun 4, 2010)

As I only got this up and running last night (after Safari screwing up the downloads over and over) I can't say too much, I have only played around for an hour or so.

First impressions? The samples DO sound amazing. No doubt.

And I'm hoping that once the learning curve is over, I'll be able to do everything I want. I agree that some of their interface and choices seem a bit odd just at a glance.

For instance in the vowel sections, why aren't their prebuilt keyswitches layed out? Not sure I like the little rotary knob selection. I'm probably missing something, maybe there is a keyswitching scheme built in that I've not yet discovered.

And something I'm hoping is possible, for instance, playing a word, is there any way to play the three or four syllables on different notes, to have the phrase melodic, without each key retriggering the sample? I haven't read the entire manual yet, but I sure hope this is possible somehow. But very possible you can't do it? 

I will also admit though, having gone as far as they did, it sure would be nice to have those SATB legato patches. I understand why they didn't, but it seems like with so much work on this library, a bit more would have given even more flexibility.

But, I have only just barely started playing, and my first impression was, the sound is amazing. Now I just have to learn to use it. The nice thing is that the samples are there, as you said, so maybe they can work a bit on the interfaces a bit.

I too would love to see this available in the 'Library' menu, but I think it's not easily do-able, the entire thing would have to be recoded into a 'Library' package, so I wouldn't hold your breath on that.

Tim


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## Blackster (Jun 4, 2010)

Folmann @ Fri Jun 04 said:


> Love the thread - just keep the feedback rolling and we will take it all into our 1.1 - most of the things mentioned are doable.



I love this answer, Troels!! And that's one of the reasons I support you guys!  downloaded today, tomorrow is going to be my first "playing day"


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## Justus (Jun 4, 2010)

Folmann @ Fri Jun 04 said:


> Love the thread - just keep the feedback rolling and we will take it all into our 1.1 - most of the things mentioned are doable.



...and that is why I love Tonehammer! Some other companies could learn from you!


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## synthetic (Jun 4, 2010)

I also noticed the key ranges were odd, I thought it was something in my system. Some of the keyswitches seem to be below the lowest note of my 88-key controller so I had to transpose it down an octave. I also agree with the marcato releases, it should be shorter by default. 

Is it possible to have the keyswitch keys show up in the UI? I don't see them in Kontakt 4.1 on my Mac. 

I like that the mod wheel controls staccato dynamics, but it should be simple to add another program that routes them to velocity. I suggested a program that randomly selects a new syllable with each new chord. I don't care what they're saying as long as it changes, "pah-roo-la-teh-nah" etc. I guess the script would have to have a window so that notes played as a chord have the same syllable, or maybe it changes the syllable on note off? 

Agreed that the sound is awesome and that is the most important thing! 

Reposting my gushing review from the other thread:



> Stayed up very late last night playing with Requiem. Then got up and played some more. I'm going to have a lot of fun with this one. Very inspirational sound and easy to play. Works very well in Kontakt 4.1 and VE Pro 64-bit on my Mac. The three-mic combis worked fine on my system, though I was just testing them by themselves.
> 
> I was slightly concerned about not having legato SATB but I don't think it will be a problem. You could easily play four parts using the full range program and it would sound identical, I think. It's actually better this way -- less RAM usage and you don't have to worry about that one note that's just out of range. Of course doing it this way kept file sizes and price down as well. I think it was a great decision.
> 
> ...


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## Peaslee (Jun 4, 2010)

Hi guys, we're definitely taking copious notes, so thanks for the feedback and comments. 

A few of the requests and tweaks pointed out here aren't really possible in Kontakt 3.5 because of various other control features we wanted to provide you. We didn't want to rule out K3.5 users right off the bat, but it's pretty likely that v1.1 will require an upgrade to K4. That will definitely free our hands to do a lot more, so please keep the notes coming.

We'll be adding video demos and tutorials soon as well. In the meantime, we tried to make sure the manual is as deep as possible so you can see where everything is and how to use it. Also, the info bar on the bottom of Kontakt will show help text when you hover your mouse over a knob.


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## RiffWraith (Jun 4, 2010)

Some good points here. I think most of this is just programming - unfortunately when you are the dev, you are not going to be able to do programming which will be suitable for everyone. 



stevenson-again @ Fri Jun 04 said:


> i was hoping for a patches that would have round robin syllables. instead you have to key switch them, and because you can't see what they all are at once (the individual syllables come up on the kontakt UI) you will have to memorize them or write them down.



Yup - same here. But again, this is a programming thing; I was actually considering reprogramming the stacatto .nki files this way. If it's ok w/T & M, will make this public wen done. Are the .nki files w-marked as well?


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## RiffWraith (Jun 4, 2010)

Ok, sorry - didn't mean to sound like "Mr. Share" here....just trying to be neighborly is all. I did say "If it's ok w/T & M"...


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## rJames (Jun 4, 2010)

Great sounding lib.

Request:

Please make us an all mic library that is pre-mixed. I know you can premix them to a standard of excellence that I could never muster in any case.

I know the response is that it is less flexible BUT 90% of your users do not have the horsepower to use the 3 mic setup (my 8 core, 3.2 GHz Mac with 10G ram garps with only one note in the big 3 mic legato patch)

I assume that 90% of your users will not take the time to actually remix the 3 mics.


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## TimNielsen (Jun 4, 2010)

So far I would say what I really miss:

True legato solo performances, tenor bass and soprano (why not Alto too) of Oh, Ooh, Ah, Eeh, Mmm (don't forget the Mmm 

The soloist performance you got are great. But for me, phrases are not nearly as useful as a legato vowel sets would be. That's one thing I have not heard done well yet. Voice of Passion tried, but never a big fan of their legato samples.

I'd love a set of soloists that can swell via mod wheel between non-vibrato and vibrato, and volume can swell too. But with good legato sampling. Maybe even key switching between the vowels, sounds.

This if it could be done would make a very powerful addition, especially for layering into the beds that Requiem can do well. And who knows, maybe for Requiem 1.5 or something, you could greatly expand the soloist part. In K4 you could do some pretty cool scripting to make a wicked soloist 'playable' instrument.

The other thing with the phrasing, and this is only because I have 'word builder' in my mind, no idea if it would be possible. But let's say you have Dom-ee-neah, if I could play the phrase on three notes, but have Kontakt switch seamlessly, so I could play 'melody' across that phrase, and if I can hit the timing, it plays Dom on C, ee on D# and neah on F. Maybe it can't be done. But would make the phrases so much more useful. This is beyond my own area of knowledge, if it could be done in Kontakt.

But if it could be pulled off, would be wicked.

Wish that the phrase names were not so truncated on the interface, can only see the first four letters. and then a ... Hard to know what they are.

Maybe a simple button to turn off Legato completely, rather thaòØ    ÖÍ’Ø    ÖÍ“Ø    ÖÍ”Ø    ÖÍ•Ø    ÖÍ–Ø    ÖÍ—Ø    ÖÍ˜Ø    ÖÍ™Ø    ÖÍšØ    ÖÍ›Ø    ÖÍœØ    ÖÍØ¡   ÖÍžØ¡   ÖÍŸØ¡   ÖÍ Ø¡   ÖÍ¡Ø¡   ÖÍ¢Ø¡   ÖÍ£Ø¡   ÖÍ¤Ø¡   ÖÍ¥Ø¡   ÖÍ¦Ø¡   ÖÍ§Ø¡   ÖÍ¨Ø¡   ÖÍ©Ø¢   ÖÍªØ¢   ÖÍ«Ø¢   ÖÍ¬Ø¢   ÖÍ­Ø¢   ÖÍ®Ø¢   ÖÍ¯Ø¢   ÖÍ°Ø¢   ÖÍ±Ø¢   ÖÍ²Ø¢   ÖÍ³Ø¢   ÖÍ´Ø¢   ÖÍµØ¢   ÖÍ¶Ø¢   ÖÍ·Ø¢   ÖÍ¸Ø¢   ÖÍ¹Ø¢   ÖÍºØ¢   ÖÍ»Ø¢   ÖÍ¼Ø¢   ÖÍ½Ø¢   ÖÍ¾Ø¢   ÖÍ¿Ø¢   ÖÍÀØ¢   ÖÍÁØ¢   ÖÍÂØ¢   ÖÍÃØ¢   ÖÍÄØ¢   ÖÍÅØ¢   ÖÍÆØ¢   ÖÍÇØ¢   ÖÍÈØ¢   ÖÍÉØ¢   ÖÍÊØ¢   ÖÍËØ¢   ÖÍÌØ¢   ÖÍÍØ¢   ÖÍÎØ¢   ÖÍÏØ£   ÖÍÐØ£   ÖÍÑØ£   ÖÍÒØ£   ÖÍÓØ£   ÖÍÔØ£   ÖÍÕØ£   ÖÍÖØ£   ÖÍ×Ø£   ÖÍØØ£   ÖÍÙØ£   ÖÍÚØ£   ÖÍÛØ£   ÖÍÜØ£   ÖÍÝØ£   ÖÍÞØ£   ÖÍßØ£   ÖÍàØ£   ÖÍáØ£   ÖÍâØ£   ÖÍãØ£   ÖÍäØ£   ÖÍåØ£   ÖÍæØ£   ÖÍçØ£   ÖÍèØ£   ÖÍéØ£   ÖÍêØ£   ÖÍëØ£   ÖÍìØ£   ÖÍíØ£   ÖÍîØ£   ÖÍïØ£   ÖÍðØ£   ÖÍñØ£   ÖÍòØ£   ÖÍóØ£   ÖÍôØ£   ÖÍõØ£   ÖÍöØ£   ÖÍ÷Ø£   ÖÍøØ£   ÖÍùØ£   ÖÍúØ£   ÖÍûØ£   ÖÍüØ£   ÖÍýØ£   ÖÍþØ£   ÖÍÿØ£


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## sevaels (Jun 4, 2010)

> Love the thread - just keep the feedback rolling and we will take it all into our 1.1 - most of the things mentioned are doable.



Class....

I'm glad I give you guys my business.

:D


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## Markus S (Jun 4, 2010)

Well, after playing around for some time - some minutes actually, I'm blown away by the sound of that thing - that is a really great step forward, and by far the best sampled choir I have heard so far (at least concerning the stuff I was looking for). It's just that sound.

It is clear that TH has taken great care in recording (editing, programming etc.) and the singers in their performance (I also love the fact that so much is controlled by key switching).

I'd echo the feedback so far, especially one thing :

Please create one more patch (meaning one more sample collection) combining all three microphone positions, as suggested by rJames, it sounds so great, I'd like to use it all the time.  It's true that it eats up a lot of space, if you have to load all of the combined patches.

Anyway, that is just awesome what you guys did, thank you very much for your work!


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## TimNielsen (Jun 4, 2010)

More as it comes to me. In the legato sustains, it's nice that you 'can' play poly if the notes are close enough together. Wish there was a bit more 'forgiveness'. Nice while playing legato to be able to toss in a quick chord, but I find it's a bit too finicky to get to reliably do it. Most of the time, unless I'm perfect in sync, it will go legato (as I would expect)

Would be nice if this could be smoothed out, maybe an option to turn on and off, and a control to adjust the 'timing' of how close two notes played together will go poly versus legato? I think it's more of a fluke that I can play poly in the legato patches, but it's actually a really nice feature in other libraries. It's just not quite forgiving enough.

But especially while play in split form using the key ranges, I might want to just hold two notes in the lower section, but don't want to have to try and switch off the legato just to do it once.

Just a thought. Don't mean to bombard the thread with ideas.


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## TimNielsen (Jun 4, 2010)

Oh, and on the patches, wish the Kontakt onscreen keyboard properly reflected which keys are in use. For instance on the legato full patches, it shows all 88 keys in use, this obviously isn't the case. Not sure, all my other libs show only the keys that are mapped....


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## rJames (Jun 4, 2010)

Any programmers here?

Is there a way to move the start point of the *Stage_poly_sustains_women (and men)_slow_2-layer_tempo-synch *to just the last syllable?

I know I can do it by individual zones (there are a lot of zones). Can I do it to all at once using the 2.3 mark as my new in-point?

I wouldn't mind having an ADSR created attack if I could have a word to begin a loop with.


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## rJames (Jun 4, 2010)

On the same patch, but not tempo synched *Stage_poly_sustains_women (and men)_slow_2-layer* I can only get the offset control (cc91) to go about half way into the sample. 

Is this the way it is supposed to work? It would be really cool if it could go to that final word in the phrase.

Maybe that would be the way to offset all of the samples at once. I assume, since they were recorded to tempo that the final word is in the exact same spot on all phrases....

Anyone able to get the Release knob (cc93) to actually change anything about the release time?


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## synthetic (Jun 4, 2010)

Is there a MIDI controller for Legato speed? This might be useful for toggling legato mode on/off like LASS does. Perhaps some way to use the sustain pedal for this? Up = legato off, down = whatever the selected legato speed is.


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## Ed (Jun 4, 2010)

rJames @ Fri Jun 04 said:


> Great sounding lib.
> 
> Request:
> 
> Please make us an all mic library that is pre-mixed. I know you can premix them to a standard of excellence that I could never muster in any case..



+1 that would be cool


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## stevenson-again (Jun 4, 2010)

> A few of the requests and tweaks pointed out here aren't really possible in Kontakt 3.5 because of various other control features we wanted to provide you. We didn't want to rule out K3.5 users right off the bat, but it's pretty likely that v1.1 will require an upgrade to K4. That will definitely free our hands to do a lot more, so please keep the notes coming.




then go for it with kontakt 4. honestly, the most important thing is ease of use. what i am looking for is fairly straightforward (ho, ho, ho), but anything that makes reaching for a feature easy has to be the way to go and to hell with 3.5.

if it were't for some of the problems i would be pretty happy. at times it sounds amazing. i am working on a big piece with choir at the moment and i am shoe-horning it in there. when the right syllables line up its incredible.


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## paoling (Jun 4, 2010)

My idea for Stage_poly_sustains_women (and men)_slow_2-layer, that can integrate with rJames suggestions, is this:

You have a counter that starts whenever you hit a key with the sustain pedal down. If you press another key (with the sustain pedal down) the counter pass it's value to the offset knob. In this way you can switch to different pitches in the same phrase. Infact it's very rare to ear a choir doing a phrase on the same note: Crucifixus, Lumine, spelling the syllabes on the same pitch.

Sudden idea! :idea: If it's to much difficult to realize at what point to start the next note, you can press ALL the notes together, and then switch their volume with a controller. 

Example. I want to play
Cru on A
Ci on B
Fix on C
us on D
I press a chord, and then I use a MIDI control to switch between the differents notes.
On values 0-30 it boosts the volume of the A sample.
On values 31-60 it boosts the volume of the B sample.
On values 61-90 it boosts the volume of the C sample.
On values 90-120 it boosts the volume of the D sample.

You can make a script, that "reads" a chord (in reality all the pitches starts together), and then you can use a wheel to cross fade between the different samples played together. If it's too difficult, there could be 3-4 controllers that controls the volume of the each different samples.


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## synthetic (Jun 4, 2010)

Yeah but then you get into the sound of wordbuilders, which they deliberately tried to avoid.


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## zvenx (Jun 4, 2010)

since the update from K3.5 to K4 is now $75 for this month and it has so many advances, quite frankly I don't know why everyone wouldn't upgrade (well except of course the PPC ppl)
rsp


http://www.native-instruments.com/#/en/ ... kontakt-4/


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## synthetic (Jun 4, 2010)

Every time I read the manual I find new stuff. Here I was thinking "wow the Ah and Eh sound almost identical" but I didn't realise you need to change the Y controller to hear Eh. I thought I had to move to Canada.


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## sadatayy (Jun 4, 2010)

so no brave soul has posted first demos yet? ok let me be the first :shock: 

but first my first impressions after a few hours only of exploring the choir:


1. extermely difficult to use library at first. definitely not an 'out of the box' experience. well let me restate that to difficult for guys like me that are literally retards when it comes to anything technical...if your library has more than 2 knobs on it chances are it's too technical for me. but once you start getting the hang of it the potential begins opening up before your eyes of the beauty of the sound. 
manual explains close to squat, at least for someone like me that needs things to be explained as if to a 'special needs' child. 

2. the solo singers: these are the single most passionate and beautiful samples ever recorded....period...i literally getting goosebumps when i'm playing them. but at the same time they're frustrating because they are missing the single most important thing in my opinion which is normal Ooh and Aah type of sustains and obviously legato though i feel like ooh/aah is more important than legato seeing as how they don't have legato now and they can still be made to sound amazing.
sadly i feel this is one of the few updates we'll never see because as far as i can tell you can't update what you didn't record in the original recordign sessions and if legato intervals were not recorded for the singers then they'll never have them as far as i'm concerned and likewise i'm assuming if ooh and aah was not recorded...etc. it's a bummer because this is the single biggest update i'd give anything to see :( though i'd be extremely pleasantly surprised if somehow this is possible like through modeing i don't know 

3. honestly i can't even comment too much on the rest because it's so complex to me that i haven't yet begun to explore it and am looking forward to seeing tonehammer walk through demos of how to use this puppy because i feel like the instruction manual is for people that already seem to have some sort of fundamental understanding of everything. 
for example key switches, where in the heck are they?? i have no idea. they sure as heck aren't on my Kontakt keyboard ...they're not in the manual either as far as i can see. 
i feel like i read the manual numeruos times already but maybe i'm just dense. 

4. question: how do you use the Kontakt time warping thing? it says in the manual you have to synchronize it somehow with your DAW. i have cubase and no idea how to do that. luckily i'm real busy on a couple projects right now so am not in a rush to figure this lib completely out yet so i have patience in learning it slowly and have had fun so far just messing around with the legatos ensembles and solo singers.

5. someone mentioned about fast staccato marcato? to my knowledge this is one part i seem to have figured out you just twist one of those knobs...damn what was it called, i just closed my session so can't go in and check but it was one of the knobs you twist it and the staccatos and marcatos can be as short as you want them to be. furthermore this knob i remember accordign to the manual is controlled by CC91. so you can set that in your DAW and draw some curves on it to control the length of your staccato/marcato. can anyone confirm or refute this? seemed to work fine for me. 

hmm what else...kind of working stream of consciousness style at the moment. 

well i guess for now i can't say too much because honestly i'm just getting started on it and have not been able to fully explore or figure everything out yet, like i said no idea yet how to control the knobs for the syllables. apparently people are saying you use keyswitches but which ones? usually in kontakt for key switches the notes are highlighted on the little keyboard but i see nothing like that and don't remember reading anything about them in the manual. so let's say the knob for "high" says adoremus or whatnot, how do i with key switches make them sing the next selection up whatever it is (i think apocalypse) etc? so far i've just twisted the knob with my mouse...hehe doh.

anyways, one last thing to mention. so far at least i feel like this library is very much like the 'custom libraries' that a lot of people have whined about for so long ("Waah i wish i had TJB's custom samples wah wah") in the sense that it's not very intuitive or user friendly and has imperfections which are responsible for it sounding so realistic as opposed to the homogenous sterile sound of other more mainstream libs. so my point is that, this is the true test of all those guys that wanted their very own project prague or anything else, can you guys handle it? it's unwieldy but once you learn to wield it the results can be astonishing. it's time for all those guys to put their money where their mouth is to see if they truly can handle a 'custom library' type of rig instead of the easy to use nickelodeon type of library where everything is super smooth and intuitive but at the same time sounds sterile and dead with no passion or beautiful imperfections. 
anyways that's just my thoughts for now but they could very well change for better or worse once i learn more of the features and make some more mockups time permitting but for now here is a quick classical/baroque-esque mockup i did with some of the few features i have figured out how to use so far, i.e. the sustains/legatos and solo singers (a little bit). 
it's very quick i made for my own edification in like half hour so don't judge the poor mix and all that because i didn't realy plan to show it to people but since i just came on this thread for the first time and realized no one has evne posted demos yet i figured some people might be very curious to hear at least a LITTLE something from the user side of things. i know when HS and such came out people were seething to hear things within 5 minutes of the lib's premiere so here's a brief little baroque ish "agnus dei" type thing

http://www.zshare.net/audio/768892405b533fe0/


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## rJames (Jun 4, 2010)

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## TimNielsen (Jun 4, 2010)

Well my hope is that 1) they can continue to tweak the interface with all the incredible samples that they did record, and 2) at some point they can jump back to the church, and record four solo singers, wouldn't be that hard, doing nice legato samples.

In my dreams, I'd have four solo singers, true legato, of oh, ooh, ah, eh, mmm, maybe something I'm missing. Also set up in Kontakt to swell volume, and or swell volume into vibrato, and keyswitching between the sounds.

They could offer it down the line as an expansion set or something. Of course given me a free copy for the idea 

But I'm sure this library will continue to grow. They can record more down the line.

I should look, maybe some of the Bela D has good individuals? They did such nice programming on some of their other instruments. I haven' heard the Giovani stuff at all yet.


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## sadatayy (Jun 4, 2010)

TimNielsen @ Fri Jun 04 said:


> Well my hope is that 1) they can continue to tweak the interface with all the incredible samples that they did record, and 2) at some point they can jump back to the church, and record four solo singers, wouldn't be that hard, doing nice legato samples.
> 
> In my dreams, I'd have four solo singers, true legato, of oh, ooh, ah, eh, mmm, maybe something I'm missing. Also set up in Kontakt to swell volume, and or swell volume into vibrato, and keyswitching between the sounds.
> 
> ...



@ giovanni: go find the link in samples forum fast, the bela D. guy posted one patch from giovanni to try out for free. just letting you know ...as tonight their group buy ends. 

now back to requiem: yes i agree hiring 4 solo singers to do an addendum shouldn't be anywhere near as expensive as the full choir and i too would be absolutely thrilled with this thing if they did that and would even readily pay a little more for an upgrade, BUT the problem i envision is this:

from my limited although intuitive knowledge of how all this sampling stuff works, the REASON tonehammer was able to achieve such realism for the solo singers is the very reason that they recorded them in this limited but unique method of singing the phrases, because this allows the singers to sort of naturally air out their voice with the natural nuances of vibrato at the tail end of the phrase and such. if you were to completely scrap that and just record normal legato and normal looped sustains on the solo singers i can't imagine that they would sound any more realistic at that point than all the typical solo singer stuff like from EWQL choirs etc...maybe TH can chime in here and clarify? but point is that i truly think troels was right in that the roof of current sampling technology has been reached and so they wouldn't be able to do much of a improvement and so that's why the Requiem solo singers have this big pro and con in a sense in that the pro is that due to the way they were recorded they sound super realistic in the situations you can use them in but the con is also due to the way they were recorded with the phrases they are also much more limited in what they can be used in and what they can sing due to not having legato and not having Oohs and Aahs and basically realistic sounding looped sustains that can sing complex melodies. i really don't know what a comprise solution would be but like i said i'm just conjecturing based on my limited understanding of this stuff maybe tonehammer guys can set me straight on this but i really don't see any other way around this current 'ceiling' i.e. limit in sampling technology.


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## Ed (Jun 4, 2010)

+1 for moving the keyswitches up a bit, does Troels have a super massive keyboard? lol


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## Sean Beeson (Jun 4, 2010)

How is Reqiuem on the CPU/RAM/DFD? Does it gobble resources? Or not too shabby?


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## synthetic (Jun 4, 2010)

Ed @ Fri Jun 04 said:


> +1 for moving the keyswitches up a bit, does Troels have a super massive keyboard? lol



Yeah Troels, where do I buy that Bosendorfer Imperial controller with the extra keys on the bottom?  



Sean Beeson said:


> How is Reqiuem on the CPU/RAM/DFD? Does it gobble resources? Or not too shabby?



I've only tested it by itself so far. Actually I loaded one of the 3-mic, 3-way legato programs into Logic 9.1.1 32-bit and it was NOT happy. So I've been loading programs into VE Pro Server 64-bit since then.


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## synthetic (Jun 4, 2010)

Hey am I missing something or is there not a simple sustain "ah" patch? I know I can load the legato patch and switch legato mode off, but if I just want basic ooh-aah chords...?


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## stevenson-again (Jun 5, 2010)

> But unfortunately this "free" version only works with libraries that have been licensed through NI. Requiem does not work with the free player, which tends to cause confusion for some people


. 

ah - that would explain it. i did initially load it up in the free player and it had **demo** all over it and eventually timed out.



> I have made one legato demo already, but I can cover other aspects of legato in our video updates next week.



that's great. the thing is i tried to do the legato with the various settings and using the traditional method of creating legato, by overlapping the notes, but the different settings made no difference that i could tell and it anyway didn't sound like the legato was working. i must have missed something obvious. anyone else manage to get it going? care to share?


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## stevenson-again (Jun 5, 2010)

i know mate - i just can't seem to get it to work!

ah - just fooling with this now and few things became clear. the 'volume' is for the legato volume so you need to turn that up to hear the effect more clearly. but it IS there.

also i was wondering why the range was limited - you can turn the range up to its full value in the legato window. and its legato not portamento - so the notes join without a slide.

ok great. cracked it. sounds good.


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## stevenson-again (Jun 5, 2010)

> Stevenson. Why don't you PM us instead of trying to troubleshoot with users that just got the library.



ok i'll do that if you like - but honestly with any new library what might seem obvious to the developer is not necessarily obvious to the user. that's what's great about forums - if i come across a problem i post about it as i try to solve it. someone may already have a solution in which case i will want to know it - even if i haven't got that far yet.

so i have figured out the legato, and the range issue in that patch and hopefully someone having the same experience that i did can by pass the confusion.

btw i'll post a wee demo soon. it is sounding pretty impressive in my piece - which is not a proper mock-up as such since it is going to be for live performance, but you get the idea pretty well.


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## stevenson-again (Jun 5, 2010)

> This library is deep and covers many, many features, which haven't even been addressed in this somehow negative thread.
> 
> I have personally never worked with a choir library even close to this one in terms of realism, but I also know the library in depth.



oh troels! i just read the 'negative' bit in this comment.

i don't think this thread is negative, and i certainly don't think it was intended to be. i think everyone here is agreed that the sound of requiem is incredible. but there are some programming quirks that are inevitable in a first release and we are trying to get to the bottom of it. 

we'll get them sorted out and you'll get to see what our stumbling blocks are. wait till those user demos start going up! i have figured out a lot since i started playing around with it. hopefully 1.1 will mean a new user will find the way into the library easier.

don't want blow smoke up anyones backside but TH represent the best sampling philosophy we have today in my opinion. samples with soul.


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## sadatayy (Jun 5, 2010)

FireGS @ Sat Jun 05 said:


> http://www.aixsyd.com/music/BOTHChoirsWIP2.mp3
> 
> My first go at something famous.
> 
> Thoughts?



wow dude...very nice. how did you do that can you explain please? i.e. what patches and such etc? sounsd very good


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## Ed (Jun 5, 2010)

I sent in a suggestion but wanted to know what others think. 

I would find the following usefull:

How about this...

One patch...

1. Velocity controls dynamics

2. Modwheel acts a switch between marcato and staccato articulations

I think this would result in performing these kinds of lines more playable and less fiddly.

Do others agree?


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## Ed (Jun 5, 2010)

sadatayy @ Sat Jun 05 said:


> FireGS @ Sat Jun 05 said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.aixsyd.com/music/BOTHChoirsWIP2.mp3
> ...



Sounds like legato sustain patches with the legato turned off? Maybe also layered with some Marcs


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## FireGS (Jun 5, 2010)

Nope!

Mainly the Marcato patches with truncated releases, with legato turned off patches for the longer sustains with some Staccato peppered in at the end.


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## sadatayy (Jun 5, 2010)

FireGS @ Sat Jun 05 said:


> Nope!
> 
> Mainly the Marcato patches with truncated releases, with legato turned off patches for the longer sustains with some Staccato peppered in at the end.



very nice i'm going to try that. remember as i said i believe you can control the marcatto and possibly staccato releases with CC91 and the attack knobs (not sure the cc on it) so that you can make them as short or long as you want basically (not sure if you did this or not) by drawing in the CC curve


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## FireGS (Jun 5, 2010)

Thats exactly what I did


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## TimNielsen (Jun 5, 2010)

I agree that I don't think the intention of anyone's posts here have been intentionally negative. I think kind of on the contrary, we're all incredibly excited for this library. But certainly with any interface, some people will want to interact with the library differently, and so most of the comments are based on that.

Or on what other things we've love to see now that we have a taste of such beautiful samples. We're just saying, 'oh and I wish it could do xxx'

Sorry if it seems like we're beating up on it, for me at least that's not the case at all. The library is beautiful, and no doubt it's incredibly powerful, and as you said, anything powerful will have a learning curve.

And without a doubt it's the best sounding choir library I've ever heard, I have absolute zero regret in buying it.


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## midphase (Jun 5, 2010)

Maybe in the future TH should just sell the raw samples, and let each user program them as they see fit?


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## Blackster (Jun 5, 2010)

midphase @ Sat Jun 05 said:


> Maybe in the future TH should just sell the raw samples, and let each user program them as they see fit?



Yeah, actually that would be a new business model.  And a good way for us users to understand what an enormous amount of work is behind those patches. Honestly, I don't want to program any patches ... not my kind of business :|

But that would be interesting: you only buy those patches (with their samples) you really want to use ..... mmmhhh


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## sadatayy (Jun 5, 2010)

i'm using requiem already in a current project. maybe i'll post the track later when i finish it. working very nice so far. starting to love the library more and more as i learn how to use it better ilttle by little


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## Ed (Jun 5, 2010)

Blackster @ Sat Jun 05 said:


> Yeah, actually that would be a new business model.  And a good way for us users to understand what an enormous amount of work is behind those patches. Honestly, I don't want to program any patches ... not my kind of business :|
> 
> But that would be interesting: you only buy those patches (with their samples) you really want to use ..... mmmhhh



In case anyone takes this seriously I strongly disagree with only buying samples 

I had to program my own giga patches of a private library and so only use about 10% of it because of that. Pain. In. ASSSSS.


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## Pzy-Clone (Jun 5, 2010)

Blackster @ Sat Jun 05 said:


> Yeah, actually that would be a new business model.  And a good way for us users to understand what an enormous amount of work is behind those patches. Honestly, I don't want to program any patches ... not my kind of business :|
> 
> But that would be interesting: you only buy those patches (with their samples) you really want to use ..... mmmhhh





Well, are you not free to do that with this library as it is, being completely unlocked?
But anyway, thats not a new biz model at all, thats how sampling started...with audio cds containing thousands of sounds you had to extract and program yourself in you sampler on a the time.


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## synthetic (Jun 5, 2010)

Folmann @ Sat Jun 05 said:


> I would encourage everybody to spend a little more time with the library and the manual. This library is deep and covers many, many features, which haven't even been addressed in this somehow negative thread.



I hope I'm not one of the negatives! I'm very happy with this library. I don't see any reason that someone would choose another choir library. 

FireGS, great first attempt! None of the other choir libs can sound that big and loud.


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## synthetic (Jun 5, 2010)

Ed and others, here is how to make velocity control staccato volume in Kontakt: 

1. Click the wrench on the top left corner. 
2. Click Group Editor. Make sure "edit all groups" is turned on at the top (should be red). 
3. Click the "Mod" button. 
4. Right click where it says "CC1" and delete
5. Change the fader next to Velocity to 100%
6. Click and hold the Files button in Kontakt, select "Save edited instrument as" 
7. Give it a new name like Mid_Staccato_full_vel

End result should look like the attached. It took way longer for me to type this than it does to actually do it. Three cheers for open libraries.


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## Markus S (Jun 5, 2010)

Com'on guys, did you hear the samples? That library sounds amazing and that is the most important. Sure maybe you can improve the programming (and there are certainly a few bigs), but honestly I don't see why it would be so difficult to use. I didn't use it yet in a project, but there is all you need : cross-fade dynamics, release control, attack control, volume control, key-switching of the syllables, short notes, marcato, long notes. I think it's quite straight forward actually (even though, there is certainly a lot to explore if you go deeper inside).

A word about the circular selection of samples, and/or random selection : It makes no sense to me, to use these systems - you have to use key switching to control the syllables, for a simple reason : If you have the syllable REX, it starts BEFORE the first time, and if you have TUM it start at the first time, so you have to manually adjust the starting point. If the syllable is one REX and one TUM, randomly, it will never work musically. 

It's the same for choosing a matrix of syllables that are repeated. It's just total random, after 5 bars (except for extremely simple writing), you will have no idea where in the matrix you are at that point. It's even worse if you start the track from different points in the arrangement, they sing the syllables from the starting point on, so again, total random. The EW wordbuilder is somehow more clever, because you can recreate new matrixes all the time, using just a new midi channel, so you keep the control, but it's a bit complicated to use.

If you use key-switching, you know exactly who sings what and when. That's excellent, because sometime one syllable just won't "sound right" at it's place - how do you replace this one, when using a circular system, or a random system? Just a thought. So that is not really a weakness in programming, I think. You can't compare percussion round robin to choir round robin.

Anyway, I wish TH best of luck with the product (I'd just hope for that 3 mic position mixdown, even though I know it's a lot of additional work) - so again, great job guys!


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## Ed (Jun 5, 2010)

Markus S @ Sat Jun 05 said:


> A word about the circular selection of samples, and/or random selection : It makes no sense to me, to use these systems - you have to use key switching to control the syllables, for a simple reason : If you have the syllable REX, it starts BEFORE the first time, and if you have TUM it start at the first time, so you have to manually adjust the starting point. If the syllable is one REX and one TUM, randomly, it will never work musically.



You are right of course, random wouldnt be good, neither would cycling through all of them since they all have different attacks and so on which might sound weird. But I'm sure there must be a better way to have it much more playable. It is quite fiddly as it is, I mean I think my idea of having the modwheel switch from staccato to marcato patch would make it much easier to play in lines for example.

Cinesamples video showing their syllable buillder engine thing seems to work the way I'd want it to work tbh. Troels seemed to hint they would look at this for a Kontakt 4 update so hopefully it would function as well as this seemed to.



> It's the same for choosing a matrix of syllables that are repeated. It's just total random, after 5 bars (except for extremely simple writing), you will have no idea where in the matrix you are at that point.



Well I dont agree with this, you could just have a key that switches it back to zero or to the middle of the sequence so that you know where you are. And the point is this library is really for trailers not "complex" writing, thats why they didn't go out and record an entire word builder. You cant really have complex writing with... what.... 12 or so different words? I think its a great idea, but can you ever say you wrote complex words with it? 

I think that in playing the Poly Sustains and Soloists it would be really useful to be able to move to the middle of a phrase. Though maybe someone will come and tell me you can do that with some obcure controller  And yes I agree that solists with ahh oh and so on would have been really helpfull.


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## Pzy-Clone (Jun 5, 2010)

Ed @ Sat Jun 05 said:


> Markus S @ Sat Jun 05 said:
> 
> 
> > A word about the circular selection of samples, and/or random selection : It makes no sense to me, to use these systems - you have to use key switching to control the syllables, for a simple reason : If you have the syllable REX, it starts BEFORE the first time, and if you have TUM it start at the first time, so you have to manually adjust the starting point. If the syllable is one REX and one TUM, randomly, it will never work musically.
> ...



ok so due to being poor at the moment i havent gotten this yet...but IF the patches are set to "timemachine 2" mode... you can activate the "legato" button which lets you ....TADA!: play the consecutive keys without having to start the phrase from the beginning again.

BUT that requires the entire Patch to be loaded into the RAM, offcourse.


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## Ed (Jun 5, 2010)

Pzy-Clone @ Sat Jun 05 said:


> ok so due to being poor at the moment i havent gotten this yet...but IF the patches are set to "timemachine 2" mode... you can activate the "legato" button which lets you ....TADA!: play the consecutive keys without having to start the phrase from the beginning again.
> 
> BUT that requires the entire Patch to be loaded into the RAM, offcourse.



You can load the timemachine patch up, and I can click the legato button but this doesnt do anything except make it monophonic as far as I can tell, which means I dont understand how to use any of it I guess!

Sure cant wait for these videos! Im sure stuff will make more sense then


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## Pzy-Clone (Jun 5, 2010)

Ed @ Sat Jun 05 said:


> Pzy-Clone @ Sat Jun 05 said:
> 
> 
> > ok so due to being poor at the moment i havent gotten this yet...but IF the patches are set to "timemachine 2" mode... you can activate the "legato" button which lets you ....TADA!: play the consecutive keys without having to start the phrase from the beginning again.
> ...



Ok its a bit difficult to say becouse i dont even know what the GUI looks like for REQUIEM, but i mean the "legato" button on the actual Timemachine module it self, not anything in the scripted interface.

It works for every other samplelib i have, so unless they did some clever scripting that doesnt use the TM mode in the normal way, i dont see why it should not work for this.

I was just doing it last night actualy, with the boys choir thing Bela D gave away.
Ok, that sounded dirty .


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## Ed (Jun 5, 2010)

Pzy-Clone @ Sat Jun 05 said:


> Ok its a bit difficult to say becouse i dont even know what the GUI looks like for REQUIEM, but i mean the "legato" button on the actual Timemachine module it self, not anything in the scripted interface.



Yup, on the actual Timemachine module itself. Doesnt seem to do much! So again I guess I have no idea how to use it. I have to have my hand held most of the time though...

They had the thing Im talking about for their forgotton voices series but that was via modwheel that controlled the sample starts (I think), and the modwheel is being used in Requiem for dynamics so thats taken so it would have to be done by another controller. I am most interested in the videos since I swear some of the knobs dont appear to do anything, but its probably just my user error which has happened many times before and no one should assume it doesnt work just because I cant do it. I shall reserve judgement until I see the tutorials


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## Pzy-Clone (Jun 5, 2010)

Ed @ Sat Jun 05 said:


> Pzy-Clone @ Sat Jun 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Ok its a bit difficult to say becouse i dont even know what the GUI looks like for REQUIEM, but i mean the "legato" button on the actual Timemachine module it self, not anything in the scripted interface.
> ...



Thats odd, but unfortunatly i cant help much since i dont have it yet.
Unless you want to donate your copy to me in the name of science offcourse


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## Ed (Jun 5, 2010)

Pzy-Clone @ Sat Jun 05 said:


> Thats odd, but unfortunatly i cant help much since i dont have it yet.
> Unless you want to donate your copy to me in the name of science offcourse



Ha! As you know that would be against the licence agreement so alas I cannot! What a shame! :wink:


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## Pzy-Clone (Jun 5, 2010)

Ed @ Sat Jun 05 said:


> Pzy-Clone @ Sat Jun 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Thats odd, but unfortunatly i cant help much since i dont have it yet.
> ...



One more thing ...make sure that you have selected ALL groups for editing before you turn on Legato, if that doesnt work then i have no idea why right now.

Hey....But at least you found the staccatos in this choir library


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## Ed (Jun 5, 2010)

Pzy-Clone @ Sat Jun 05 said:


> One more thing ...make sure that you have selected ALL groups for editing before you turn on Legato, if that doesnt work then i have no idea why right now.



tbh, Im going to wait for the videos. Im sure the way they explain it will make it make more sense than me fumbling around and getting more and more frustrated.



> Hey....But at least you found the staccatos in this choir library



haha! Yes... well hard to miss in this one :D


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## synthetic (Jun 5, 2010)

I don't know if someone else reported this already, but I found a minor bug. Load Mid_poly-sustains_women_slow_2-layer, D3 and D#3 trigger the same note. 

Can't stop playing with this library. I should be writing but it's too much fun to play. Everybody buy it before the sale is over! Killer killer deal right now.


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## sadatayy (Jun 5, 2010)

Folmann @ Sat Jun 05 said:


> Its weird you mention this synthetic. I found the library strangely intimidating. I was like nervous even releasing any music with it - cause I feel I wasn't utilizing it right. I still have that feeling btw.
> 
> But doesn't it just smell and feel live? For me ... it has such a pulse, such a heart, its not perfect, but its that perfect imperfection (granted with some programming modifications).



exactly and like all 'living things' they are hard to grasp at first but the more i'm delving into it the more i'm loving it and astonished by the sound and possibilities...this puppies a classic i urge all to get their hands on this awesome lib asap o-[][]-o


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## sadatayy (Jun 5, 2010)

p.s. i'm finishing up a project this weekend and am using Requiem already in one track but am behind schedule otherwise and haven't had time yet to fully delve into the lib so as soon as i finish this current film i'm doing i shall delve more into requiem and post more user demos and mockups


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## snowleopard (Jun 6, 2010)

This is a great thread. I don't plan on buying this, Troels has enough of my money already (that was a JOKE)*, but this has been very informative, and apparently from Troels reaction, constructive. 

*I'm only not buying as I have family issues that take precendent over everything right now.. I also already own SC with VOTA and am waiting for PLAY Pro, and I'm curious about Cine's Voxos and BelaD's VOCI to see how they stack up.


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## RiffWraith (Jun 6, 2010)

http://vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=220374 :D


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## Frederick Russ (Jun 6, 2010)

Very nice library which is useful for a lot of styles and settings. On Requiem in particular, I believe its really important to take an adequate amount of time to really dig deep to learn how things are done. Sound quality is superb - stunning at times - especially the multiple mic positions which to me can have mind blowing moments. Its possible between several composers to have your own unique signature sound with it depending on how you use it. Again, my recommendation is take the time to learn it inside and out to get the most mileage out of it.


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## Markus S (Jun 6, 2010)

Ed @ Sat Jun 05 said:


> Cinesamples video showing their syllable buillder engine thing seems to work the way I'd want it to work tbh. Troels seemed to hint they would look at this for a Kontakt 4 update so hopefully it would function as well as this seemed to.
> 
> Well I dont agree with this, you could just have a key that switches it back to zero or to the middle of the sequence so that you know where you are. And the point is this library is really for trailers not "complex" writing, thats why they didn't go out and record an entire word builder. You cant really have complex writing with... what.... 12 or so different words? I think its a great idea, but can you ever say you wrote complex words with it?



I'm not saying TH shouldn't use such a matrix (preselecting syllables that are repeated systematically), but I believe it might not be as useful as it seems, compared to KS :

- If you have 2 or more instruments loaded (SATB or women / men) and one of them quits for a second the homophonic writing, it shifts the matrix, and the voices are not singing the same things anymore (and that can happen in really basic simple writing). With key-switching you can add this additional note (using the same syllable or another), and sync again on the next chord.

- Even if you can set back the matrix, if you have 15 syllables in it, you will always have to get back to this starting point to be able to listen to what you edited in the midi notes, which can be quite a hassle. With KS you get the syllable at the moment when it plays.

- If you want to change a note inside the matrix, because it just doesn't sound right in a particular chord or register, you can't do it. With KS you can easily repeat a matrix, but also change it slightly.

- If you want to change the phrase completely, you will either need to load a new instrument, or program a new one and switch to it. Either way it's a bit complicated, while you can change every instant using KS.

Anyway, these are just some general thoughts, why I think KS is still more flexible and user friendly.



Ed @ Sat Jun 05 said:


> It is quite fiddly as it is, I mean I think my idea of having the modwheel switch from staccato to marcato patch would make it much easier to play in lines for example.



Why not just create 2 midi tracks : one called TH Requiem staccato and one TH Requiem marcato. You write your music in one of them copy and paste short or long notes to the other, while deleting them in the further. That would be pretty basic midi editing, and works really fast.


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## wesbender (Jun 6, 2010)

Markus S @ Sun Jun 06 said:


> I'm not saying TH shouldn't use such a matrix (preselecting syllables that are repeated systematically), but I believe it might not be as useful as it seems, compared to KS :



I think they both could have their place, though more complex, customized "phrases" favor keyswitching I think.

I don't know if they're planning on implementing some sort of matrix, but if they do (which would be nice) I hope they also keep the current keyswitch system as I'm really starting to get used to it. It's maybe kind of overwhelming at first having a pile of keyswitches for one patch, but the flexibility is nice once you start to get a decent work-flow going. I even made a nice spreadsheet for the keyswitches from all the different patches in the library for reference (yes, I'm a nerd). It's really made things a lot quicker/easier until I can get them memorized.


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## OB.one (Jun 6, 2010)

Just took the time to compose a few bars of 4 part harmony using legato 3 syllabes morphing and solo tenor (Close Mics +Mid Mics for the Choir, All 3 mics for the tenor and a bit of Aether reverb touch )

You can hear it there :

http://www.box.net/shared/6ji382xd41

I love this sound ! :wink:

Will continue to explore this library during the day.

Best Regards

Olivier aka OB.one
http://www.myspace.com/obonemusic


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## Hannesdm (Jun 6, 2010)

I thought it would be interesting to hear what requiem sounds like when playing the melodies from the voxos video:
http://www.box.net/shared/00q67te1gi

I've also uploaded the .wav-file:
http://www.box.net/shared/r519bug1zb

First you hear a soprano melody on OH, a soprany melody on AH, an alto melody on OH, an alto melody on AH and finally together on OH. 

-Ive used the following 2 patches: Stage_Sustains_full_legato_ah and Stage_Sustains_full_legato_oh 
-Speed is set on med 
-I've added a bit of the Hall 1 reverb.

Keep in mind that I just got the library. It's basically the first thing I did.
So this is how it sounds out of the box by a regular user and not by MIDI wizards like TJB, Colin O'Malley, ...

Feel free to give your opinion!

My humble opinion:

As stated before, the samples themself are fantastic!
Honestly, the legato isn't as smooth as I hoped it to be.. It looks like voxos does a better job on that part.
It's like every time a new legato note is played, there is a small crescendo (and from a 'closed' to an 'open' sound) which makes the melodies less realistic. (I have the same problem with string libraries like SISS, LASS,...) 
I hear some artifacts on the AH legato lines on the left. (more noticeable with headphones)

Again, I just got this library so don't take my opinion too seriously. :wink: 
This is in *no way* intended to harm TH or requiem. I think it can only make the library better in the end.


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## stevenson-again (Jun 6, 2010)

> I even made a nice spreadsheet for the keyswitches from all the different patches in the library for reference (yes, I'm a nerd). It's really made things a lot quicker/easier until I can get them memorized.



KSing is inevitable in certain situations, but for a lot of the time i just want to be able to create nonsense words out of a bunch of syllables. i would be happy to have a repeating phrase cycling around built out of those syllables. the voxos idea is probably ideal. but even then, i am more than happy with the effect of just randomized syllables. the problem is if you randomize the syllables in the staccato, marcato or the vowel select patches, some of them are at quite different volumes and so you lose the odd note or chord here and there.

fear not, because i think i have a solution. i think it might be able to pass the randomized notes created by a transformer in logic into another transformer so that any notes falling on these soft ones can be mapped to other syllables or vowels. it may even be possible to set something up in bidule to do that. i will have a go at setting this up tomorrow and i'll post the logic file. it won't have the kontakt patch in there so there is no danger of passing on watermarked TH patches, but anyone who needs just a simple randomized syllable effect should be able to get it straight away.

i have got it working in the piece i am working on and it does sound really really good, bar the occasional missing note because the vowel or syllable is too quiet. if i can solve that then i'll be cooking with butter. it's much cruder than carefully creating a KS plan, but for quick, dirty and immediate requiem goodness it is sounding pretty good. i'll also post a couple of bits from my piece that are working well.


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## handz (Jun 6, 2010)

Thanx for those first demos - I have also hoped that legato will be better, VOXOS rulez in this example. It sounds like if there is some strange pause between each note - at the end of phrase - maybe velocity curve. Definitely not smooth sounding (the first example have this problem very noticable)


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## OB.one (Jun 6, 2010)

And another sustain phrases examples :
Men and women each separated + Solo Soprano in the end.

http://www.box.net/shared/7b9pc2gk7c

Best

Olivier


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## Ed (Jun 6, 2010)

Jeez was it necessary to upload a wave file?


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## sadatayy (Jun 6, 2010)

Ed @ Sun Jun 06 said:


> Jeez was it necessary to upload a wave file?



who me? i was too lazy to convert mine to mp3 :mrgreen:


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## Ed (Jun 6, 2010)

sadatayy @ Sun Jun 06 said:


> Ed @ Sun Jun 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Jeez was it necessary to upload a wave file?
> ...



yea... well it will put people off downloading it.


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## sadatayy (Jun 6, 2010)

Ed @ Sun Jun 06 said:


> sadatayy @ Sun Jun 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed @ Sun Jun 06 said:
> ...



what are you on a 56k? it's like 10mb takes me probably 3 seconds to download it. which country are you in Uganda? :lol:


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## Ed (Jun 6, 2010)

sadatayy @ Sun Jun 06 said:


> what are you on a 56k? it's like 10mb takes me probably 3 seconds to download it. which country are you in Uganda? :lol:



From that website it took 7 minutes. Dont be an asshole

PS: I still think it sounds odd compared to Cinesamples, which to me sounds more natural. I dont know if its meant to sound that way, so we'll have to wait and see I guess.


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## midphase (Jun 6, 2010)

Uganda probably has better internet service than the US or England!


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## sadatayy (Jun 6, 2010)

midphase @ Sun Jun 06 said:


> Uganda probably has better internet service than the US or England!



i know. teh poo poo man had a macbook, they're pretty advanced over there :lol:


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## NYC Composer (Jun 6, 2010)

Ed @ Sun Jun 06 said:


> sadatayy @ Sun Jun 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed @ Sun Jun 06 said:
> ...



Put me off- looked at time, stopped d'ling.


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## sadatayy (Jun 6, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Sun Jun 06 said:


> Ed @ Sun Jun 06 said:
> 
> 
> > sadatayy @ Sun Jun 06 said:
> ...



who cares? i wasn't doing it for me. i took my own time to do a sample for you guys, i.e. the ones interested in purchasing the library and want to hear how it sounds. i already have the library. i'm sure other guys that are actually interested in it will take the time to download the file and listen to it, if not then oh well that's your choice to be uninformed about it. i don't work for tonehammer it's not my job to make it convenient for you lazies.


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## Ed (Jun 6, 2010)

I have a request for a tutorial 

Q: How do do fast staccatos effectively!

I'm getting very good results on, I guess, medium short staccatos (if that makes sense) but I really want to do some fast stuff if possible?

I know I could add timemachine and try and speed it up, but I am hoping for a more elegant solution.

I will post what I've done later tonight I expect....


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## NYC Composer (Jun 6, 2010)

sadatayy @ Sun Jun 06 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun Jun 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed @ Sun Jun 06 said:
> ...



I will consider myself deprived of your largesse.


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## Ed (Jun 6, 2010)

AHHH!!!

Fast Staccs, possible SOLUTION. :D 

For anyone also wondering, use the Poly sustains FAST. Since the phrases have a harder attack this works. Works much better than trying use the staccato patch... however the staccato patches are great for more longish short notes.

I also suggest pressing a key switch while playing each note and it makes it much more playable.


I dont know if thats the idea, but that seems to work for me


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## NYC Composer (Jun 6, 2010)

Folmann @ Sun Jun 06 said:


> This is a good point Ed - and one of the reasons we expanded on the concept of staccato. Staccato and marcato notes great, but the reality is that it ends up sounding a little machine like even with round robin.
> 
> The reality is that a choir doesn't sing "staccato" in the sample sense and even simple word like "Sanctus" is much more then "Sanc" and then "Tus" - and this inherently goes back to why we don't believe in the concept of word builders.
> 
> ...



As much as I understand how this is a good plan for pretty much any deep library one buys, the repetition of it doesn't make me want to jump up and buy the library regardless of the wonderful sound in the demos.

In an age where assignments often need to be completed overnight, I'd rather buy intensively pre-programmed libraries with easy instructions for making specific sounds. I assume this sort of programming would have delayed release, so I understand why that may not have been possible from a business standpoint. That said, I might be more interested in 1.1. 

Sound-wise, I do consider this a breakthrough library, so please don't take my comments for anything but my outlook for my specific needs.


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## Ed (Jun 6, 2010)

Little simple staccato stuff....

http://www.edbradshawmusic.com/EB_requiem-STACC-a-tooooeees.mp3 (www.edbradshawmusic.com/EB_requiem-STAC ... ooeees.mp3)

Its not doing any fast staccs here but thought I'd share the normal stacc stuff anyway. I also layered under it some fast poly sustainas, but you aren't really hearing them in this.

Also some Epic Frame Drums and sorry about poor mix.

Hey Troels, any tips on how to get the choir singing this better I'd be interested


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## NYC Composer (Jun 6, 2010)

Folmann @ Sun Jun 06 said:


> Its a little hard to discuss a library with you when you don't have it and thereby don't have a comparative context for discussion.
> 
> But I will reiterate that this library does have patches (ex. poly-sustains - see video below) that can be slapped on any track and instantly sound amazing, however if you truly want to harvest its powers - its not a 10 minute job and you won't find any of the new generation of orchestral or choral libraries that are.
> 
> ...




Troels,

I have deep admiration for your work as both a composer and a developer. Your efforts of late have been prodigious and fruitful-however, I beg of you not to go down the road of some other developers and become super-sensitive about anything that could in ANY way be construed as, well, not even negative, but...non-positive! 

To your first point- is it your suggestion I buy the library simply to have a context to discuss it?? Is it not sufficient to listen to the demos, watch the videos and read the discussions to have some minor elucidation?

To your second point- yes, I understand, and said so. It's a deep library. It will require some work to utilize to its full potential. However, if you will re-read *I* personally would rather have a bit more pre-programmed material to make my life easier. That's my prerogative and that should be sufficient. I'm not trying to hurt sales of your product, on the contrary it sounds (I repeat) fantastic. I want it to be a huge success, and based on your statements and statements of early adopters, I'm hoping that 1.1 will include some additional presets for the time challenged and tech weary, both categories of which I am a charter member.

I'm a customer of yours and intend to buy much, much more over time. Just so you know. Best to you.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 6, 2010)

Folmann @ Sun Jun 06 said:


> You mention that you would like a more "pre-programmed" version of Requiem and I am sincerely curious to what that means. I realize that you don't have the library, but you are obviously interested in discussing it - so I would love to know what type of improvements you would like.
> 
> I mean this in the most constructive way bro.



Okaythen, my friend.

1. I want a pre-set called 'Carmina You're on-a!'
2. I want a pre-set called " Ethereal Women conducting souls into heaven''
3. I want a preset called 'Monks muttering about the wrong Papal choice'
4. I want a pre-set called 'Bizarre Bizet contralto'

Not clear? Ok....

'Very hard very short staccato full choir key switched syllables'

'Swelling full choir Chord Chromatic keyswitch"

"Full choir syllable key switch hard/soft vel'

Now, I'm sure some of this is in there. As you mentioned, I don't have it. However, my point is- in the ideal, I'd really, really like it spoon-fed to me...THEN let me mess with stuff and make my own patches.

Is that any clearer?


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## Hannesdm (Jun 7, 2010)

sadatayy @ Sun Jun 06 said:


> hmmm...not sure if maybe you weren't on the right legato knob (Im' still figuring everything out myself) but it seems perhaps your legato was set on "slow" or "fast" yet you were doing "medium" here I tried I think to set mine appropriately, I could be off too not sure but try my example out and let me know if that sounds better to you
> 
> 
> http://www.zshare.net/audio/769483640c699c86/


Thanks for the example!

It does sound better, but still doesn't sound realistic to me.. It still has that 'crescendo'- effect.
What settings do you use?

Can you do the same with an AH vowel, because that one has more problems over here. (Can you hear those weird noises on the left?)

As mentioned before, my legato speed setting was set at medium.

I hope Troels will do a tech demo (naked!) of the legato asap! 
I understand that it's a deep library that needs some tweaking to sound good, but a legato patch that sounds smooth out of the box isn't too much to ask, isn't it?

It would also be nice to have a patch where key velocity controls the legato speed. (like LASS, samplemodeling, ...)
That would be more intuïtive to me.


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## stevenson-again (Jun 7, 2010)

> You mention that you would like a more "pre-programmed" version of Requiem and I am sincerely curious to what that means.



i think the simplest thing would be a 'basic' (for the user) patch from which you can reach most things that would cover 90% of situations.

in 1 sustain patch:
- velocity controls attack. lower velocities are vowels only. higher velocities go into marcato samples. 
- release samples (maybe KSable on/off). the note continues to loop until the key is released and the end of the word consonant or vowel.
- either: randomized syllables or preset patterns that cycle over and over. or both. KS starts the cycle again.
- modwheel controls dynamics.

getting a little smarter still, a similar patch to above works with legato below a certain velocity, and the vowels are not cycled below that velocity either. that way, when you play below a certain velocity with legato you can create melisma.

obviously there might be certain limitations with a patch such as this if you wanted to something more detailed like creating ooh-eh diphthongs. but then we are covered with other patches if we want to go into more detail. i'll post a wee demo showing what i have managed to cobble together by editing the marcato patch and finegaling some stuff in logics environment. it really isn't too bad but i know you guys could do much better, because you could match the vowel of the marcato with the sustain vowels.


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## stevenson-again (Jun 7, 2010)

ok - if you will forgive my indulgence - here is a very quick demo of how i want to use the choir. i have randomized the vowels, but i had to map out the 2 soft samples (ooh and aah i think) so that the volume would be consistent they are lovely samples, but they don't work in this context.

when i say quick - it took a couple of hours fiddling around with the marcato to try and just get the syllable starts. the rest of the sample is too intense and even now the notes still 'bump'. but any softer and you lose the articulation altogether. what i did was to change the ADSR to AHD only and put plenty of cathedral reverb on to it.

so this with no KSing in the part at all. it is just the notes being sung that are generating random KSes. i know its not perfect but you can see where i am driving at, because even with the marcato samples and vowels not matching it's not too bad. the lower velocities do not trigger the marcato samples and so i get the diphthong effect, though only with a change of note.

i also had to increase the effect of the swell at the opening by getting into the patch. it wasn't hard though.

if i want to get really detailed about what's going on then i could maybe look into some other patches and what they might have to offer, but really cycling through syllables is more than enough.

another possibility i would like the TH boys to consider is whether or not breaking down the poly chants and turning them into individual syllables would work. the thing is - i don't often want latin or anything too recognizable - and when i do it is usually a translation of something pertinent to the story. i also don't want to be restricted to, or deal with an existing pattern. and since the chants sound lovely, and have lower intensity than the marcatos, i think they would blend in better with the sustains.

http://idisk.mac.com/rohan.stevenson/Public/stuff/RequiemExp.mp3 (Requiem Experiment)


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## Ashermusic (Jun 7, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Mon Jun 07 said:


> > You mention that you would like a more "pre-programmed" version of Requiem and I am sincerely curious to what that means.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Roihan, this reflects how I choose to work almost exactly. I have a lot of libraries but the ones I return to when I am doing paying work almost always have this kind of patch.

If it is Kontakt based, I load that patch in the first slot of an instrument bank. However, unlike youI play most of it in in real time using an expression pedal. So I load 4 or 5 more specialized patches in the bank so that when I need them, I simply hit a program change button on my PC88 and I can do it in real time.

But the key element is that patch in the first slot that does most of what I want. The libraries I have that lack this just don't get used much anymore.

Developers need to understand IMHO that working pros simply do not have the time to learn the intricacies of ever library we purchase.


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## stevenson-again (Jun 7, 2010)

> Developers need to understand IMHO that working pros simply do not have the time to learn the intricacies of ever library we purchase.



yep - this is my main concern. also, i want something that will take me most of the way there and then leave me the option of adding that extra bit of gloss if i have time.

i have been persevering and i think i have hit upon an even better way of getting what i want. i have gone into the poly sustains just to get the very first syllable. i then have a delay line on the sustains, so that they start a few milliseconds late compared to the consonants and taken a good deal of the attack off it. i then get this nice diphthong between the consonant start and the sustain taking over. at times it sounds really natural - at others there is still a bit of a bump.

i also had to go in and turn down the volume of each individual release sample within the polys (i didn't know how to do them all at once)

again, i have only velocities above 72 going to the polys for the syllable. what is tricky is nailing the exact right level so that the polys blend seemlessly into the sustains. plenty of reverb on the polys compared to the sustains help with the blend.

here is a short go at that:

http://idisk.mac.com/rohan.stevenson/Public/stuff/RequiemExp2.mp3 (Requiem Experiment 2)

i'll play around with it a bit more and try and knock something else together that demonstrates it better.

again - remember this is all without keyswitching - just randomizing the 1st syllables of the polys and sustain vowels.


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## Ed (Jun 7, 2010)

That's actually very nice Steven!!

I think it would be nice for patches to fit for a particular task. So, for example, one that is specifically programmed to make it easier to do what you just did.

You see with SC, as much as I hate it, at least after messing around with the WB I didn't *have *to touch it again. I used the same stupid settings and 6 or so syllables on each track I did with it. The hardest part from then on was just loading up all the stupid huge patches and the stupid buggy WB, but assuming that was working I could just PLAY.

The problem with Requiem's patches at the moment is that when I want to do the same style of writing I have to do all this extra work every time I use it and on every single line and while I know that it will and can sound a billion times better than using SC, I find it frustrating that I cant just spend an initial time setting stuff up and then after that just PLAY. 

So my thoughts are that when I want to do the big shouty trailer choir thing (or other styles) I want to be able to load up a patch made specifically programmed just for that. 

So for the shouty choirs stuff... I'd ideally like patch that has staccs and marcatos in it as a basic. I'd also like a pre-timestretched staccatos set to make them faster like Symphobia did. So you'd be able to turn to 3 different speeds. 

I'd have two patches where both has a stacc and a marc, the switch controlled via modwheel. The second patch would be the (fast) staccato sample set with marc again switched via the modwheel. This way I can easily just assign that part to that version when I'm playing faster in some section while still being good for real time playing.

Then in those patches I'd like to have some kind of syllable selection so that I can go through and decide what stuff I want it to sing. It really only has to be the simplest stuff, I just don't want to be having to press keyswitches while also improvising if I can help it on EVERY NOTE. While the logic may be that it provides a lot of flexibility this takes me out of the "zone" when I have to do that as I'm not good at imagining what it will sound like after the fact and going back and adding all the keyswitches or deciding which ones to press, so anything to help it do it live is a big help. 

I realise I can use the Extended Sustains however that would be another option which would be useful depending on the situation. I havent figured out how *best *you'd use them in this kind of patch though. But then I'm not a programmer. If someone can think of an even better way than what I suggested that's great, its just what im thinking of right now.

I hope this doesn't sound negative but thats how I would prefer to work.


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## Ed (Jun 7, 2010)

Here's that stacc demo I did *naked *in case anyone's interested.

http://www.edbradshawmusic.com/requiem-stacc-a-toes_naked.mp3 (www.edbradshawmusic.com/requiem-stacc-a-toes_naked.mp3)

EDIT: I will say regarding playability, that once you have figured out just pressing keyswitches when you play a note you can do this kind of stuff really easily. Faster stuff is the issue and then it gets more fiddly as I mentioned above...

This library has a lot of potential as the source material is so great, how often do you find that in libraries? The programming is an open book.


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## rJames (Jun 7, 2010)

Here is a short bit from a cue I'm working on. I hope this doesn't reflect badly on Requiem...just trying to learn it.

Please let me know where it needs improvement.

http://digitmusic.net/prePresentation/AA%2018%20choir.mp3 (AA 18 choir)


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## José Herring (Jun 7, 2010)

I think it works well. I find that the end stacc entrances have a nice direction in the phrasing and everything seems well phrased. Somebody else was saying that this wasn't possible with this library. But it's obvious that it is. Besides the progressively faster stacc at the end, did you do anything to give the end a slight dynamic lift, or was it just the natural lift coming from more open vowel sounds?


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## Rob Elliott (Jun 7, 2010)

rJames @ Mon Jun 07 said:


> Here is a short bit from a cue I'm working on. I hope this doesn't reflect badly on Requiem...just trying to learn it.
> 
> Please let me know where it needs improvement.
> 
> http://digitmusic.net/prePresentation/AA%2018%20choir.mp3 (AA 18 choir)




Sounds very nice. I bought this one a week ago and haven't even played it more than 5 mins - soon as I get over the hump - gonna dig into it. Can you tell us which patches you used and applicable controllers. Again the realism is wonderful.


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## stevenson-again (Jun 7, 2010)

> Sounds perfectly dreamy. My wife's gonna hate me for all the sample libraries I'm buying this year.



Ta. and the key thing is - no KS - it all just plays back with the notes you enter.


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## rJames (Jun 7, 2010)

Rob Elliott @ Mon Jun 07 said:


> rJames @ Mon Jun 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Here is a short bit from a cue I'm working on. I hope this doesn't reflect badly on Requiem...just trying to learn it.
> ...



Sure Rob. This piece is built from the *Poly sustains women slow 2 layer tempo sync*. I used the original and the same patch that I edited so that only the final syllable played. In this way, I can play a "word" that has a release note.

You could do the same thing by using Offset cc91 to choke up on the sample so that only the last syllable plays but that patch doesn't choke up enough on my system so I edited all the patches on one side. But I can still morph from the phrase into my final note or reverse, so it is quite useful. I did use cc1 to morph from the one word phrase back and forth to the multiple phrase a few times.

And I just used the staccatos as they are. Nothing extraordinary for the staccs.


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## Ed (Jun 7, 2010)

Ok another tip to save yourself some time is to find out which staccato syllables have fast attacks, since some are much slower. Trying to play fast on syllabels that have a slow attack muck everything up, same with a harder attack syllable getting in there in a softer stacc part. eew!

I found a better way *fast *staccs can be achieved with only the stacc patch by making note of the ones that have hard attacks such as "Cre, Do, Fis, Tus" and then lowering the release to about 40. Then play fast and it sounds pretty damn tasty!

It may sound obvious but I think I mention it because stuff like this can be included in an update. For example I think in some kind of syllable builder you could have all the syllables listed and some would be under "fast attack" so you know that when you use any of those you will be able to form fast phrases easily. This along with a pre-timestretched version to make it all just a little faster would be perfect!!


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## Rob Elliott (Jun 7, 2010)

rJames @ Mon Jun 07 said:


> Rob Elliott @ Mon Jun 07 said:
> 
> 
> > rJames @ Mon Jun 07 said:
> ...



Hey thanks a ton. Very helpful. I'll really dig into this tomorrow.


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## synthetic (Jun 7, 2010)

Did they post what MIDI CC# controls Legato Speed? I've read the manual backwards and forwards and can't find that. Thanx.


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## José Herring (Jun 7, 2010)

Funny. I know a composer there that decided to ditch all of Zimmer's personal libraries in favor of commercial libraries and his stuff is sounding leaps and bounds better.

Though I am a big fan of what I heard so far of Zimmer's new library, but so far I think only he has real access to it.


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## synthetic (Jun 7, 2010)

I don't I heard THE library, just some of the old ones. I'm a little ashamed of what it took to hear it but a few more showers and I'll be OK. The brass and percussion was awesome. And he told me that the A&D choirs were way better. I could say more but they wouldn't invite me back. 

Is there any parameter to "smooth out" the ahh legato more? So a scale is more "Aaaaaaaaa" and less "aah-waa-waa-waa"?


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## stevenson-again (Jun 8, 2010)

> Sure Rob. This piece is built from the Poly sustains women slow 2 layer tempo sync. I used the original and the same patch that I edited so that only the final syllable played. In this way, I can play a "word" that has a release note.
> 
> You could do the same thing by using Offset cc91 to choke up on the sample so that only the last syllable plays but that patch doesn't choke up enough on my system so I edited all the patches on one side. But I can still morph from the phrase into my final note or reverse, so it is quite useful. I did use cc1 to morph from the one word phrase back and forth to the multiple phrase a few times.



wow. that's really effective. could you give a little more detail? so you went in and created your own patch where the sample start is the last syllable? and you cross faded that with the normal polys? how did you set that up? within kontakt? so how workable and playable was it?


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## Ed (Jun 8, 2010)

synthetic @ Mon Jun 07 said:


> Is there any parameter to "smooth out" the ahh legato more? So a scale is more "Aaaaaaaaa" and less "aah-waa-waa-waa"?



Yea I still cant get the legato to sound as good as Troels' legato demo.


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## rJames (Jun 8, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Mon Jun 07 said:


> > Sure Rob. This piece is built from the Poly sustains women slow 2 layer tempo sync. I used the original and the same patch that I edited so that only the final syllable played. In this way, I can play a "word" that has a release note.
> >
> > You could do the same thing by using Offset cc91 to choke up on the sample so that only the last syllable plays but that patch doesn't choke up enough on my system so I edited all the patches on one side. But I can still morph from the phrase into my final note or reverse, so it is quite useful. I did use cc1 to morph from the one word phrase back and forth to the multiple phrase a few times.
> 
> ...



Yes, that's just what I did. I haven't done it with the men's or the fast combined and that will give me more syllables to work with.

It creates even more options because when you morph from the phrase side to the one word side, it happens in a vowel, so you get a word with a consonant beginning that has a vowel transition and back to a consonant syllable if you still have time as the first phrase ends.

It does give me the strategy for how to start working with the lib that I was looking for. I was always wondering how we were to handle longer notes that we want to write. This frees me up from allowing the samples to determine how I will write. But the cc91 does not cut that far in on my system so I had to move the start points. Not sure if it can be fixed or needs to be. I'm on K4 (64 bit). FWIW the cc93 (release) does not change anything here either.

The starting syllable is not as cool as the beginning of the phrases but it will do. 

Haven't done this yet, but the soprano syllables are less apparent because of the high register and I assume the true legato will really "sing" above this kind of base.

How did I set it up? Serendipity. There are two sets (of groups) of the phrases. After I edited the low KS set of the groups, I found out that the high KS were still there. That's when I realized that it was a good thing.

You could edit both groups for another type of patch. But having the beginning of the phrase is a good thing. Optimal would be having some of those great starting syllables go right into a loop.


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## stevenson-again (Jun 8, 2010)

> Yes, that's just what I did. I haven't done it with the men's or the fast combined and that will give me more syllables to work with.




i had a go with your idea and it took me bloody ages but i have to say i am pleased with the results. the only downside really is that there is only one sample and so no true dynamic difference. it is definitely better than my last approach. thanks for the tip.

so now i have 2 layers - low velocities still on the vowels, but the higher velocities starting the last syllable of the polys. i also removed the automatic randomization, merged the 2 parts, selected the top line and removed everything else, randomized the notes between c-1 and c-0, and now and fed that into the 2 choir tracks. now the randomized syllables match between the 2 parts.

it's really not too bad and will have to do until TH come up with something better. here is the results using the quickly smashed together thing i did earlier:

http://idisk.mac.com/rohan.stevenson/Public/stuff/RequiemExp4.mp3 (Requiem Experiment with Last Syllable of Polys)


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## synthetic (Jun 8, 2010)

Wow that's a great sound. I noticed that Troels' [strike]Che Valiers De Sangreal[/strike] Origins demo uses the polys too. 

The piece I'm writing now is more like Elfman's "Ice Dance" from Scissorhands -- connected scale movement, but the line seems disconnected. I have the release all the way up (the default) and I'm using the Mid mics.


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## stevenson-again (Jun 8, 2010)

woo hoo! now i am getting excited. i was spitting and cursing that i had to do this myself - it took a long chunk out of my day - but the piece i am working (not the demo) with just randomized last sylables of the polys is wicked. works extremely well. exactly what the doctor ordered. kudos goes to rJames for the tip.

what to try with your legatos is the legato volume needs to be up - give that a go.


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