# Is Kontakt the Best Player?



## Pedro Camacho (Oct 12, 2020)

.


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## Oliver (Oct 12, 2020)

On the Contrary!
For example VSL Player -> much better!


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Oct 12, 2020)

It should read: if you can't do it like VSL, stick to Kontakt.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 12, 2020)

I totally disagree. developers , please don’t allow the industry to become too dependent on one engine.

And I have had lots of problems with Kontakt over the years and I am a beta tester.


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## wcreed51 (Oct 12, 2020)

Also, Kontakt doesn't protect against piracy


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## nuyo (Oct 12, 2020)

I'm just posting something so VI Control notifies me when this thread starts to fall apart and people go riot trying to eat each others souls. ^^


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## Heinigoldstein (Oct 12, 2020)

Pedro Camacho said:


> This is an open call to all esteemed developers.
> I do support developers as much as I can.
> 
> Please don't leave Kontakt... seriously. I have never met a success case yet (better playability, speed, reliability, ease to use, ram saving, SSD optimization (to use less ram)) compared to Kontakt.
> ...


Mmh, I do understand, that it seems a lot easier having most libraries in Kontakt and I agree concerning reliability (with the exception of the old VSL-Player probably) I still don´t like Play, Engine and I´m not to crazy about the SF-Player. But I see a lot of potential in SINE. 

Better playability - maybe Speed, ease of use, RAM saving - absolutely ! Even without mic merging.And with it´s miles ahead IMHO. It still needs a bit of polishing , 2-3 features are missing and of course it needs to run (much) more solid. But hey it´s SINE 1.0. vs. Kontakt 5.8. or even 6 and the last update was a huge step forward already.


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## Casiquire (Oct 12, 2020)

VSL got it right...TWICE


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## ism (Oct 12, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> I totally disagree. developers , please don’t allow the industry to become too dependent on one engine.
> 
> And I have had lots of problems with Kontakt over the years and I am a beta tester.


+1


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## Piotrek K. (Oct 12, 2020)

Actually I dislike Kontakt and this is the only player that I don't like to use much. In some cases it's very obsolete (UI / UX - but I know that it's not easy to just change UI and make it all fancy, scalable etc.). Also for me it's cumbersome to set some simple things like routing. Plus I do not use even 10% of it's powers, but I needed to buy it to use certain libraries. Oh well.

I'm glad that Kontakt is no longer the one that rules them all.


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## jamwerks (Oct 12, 2020)

Why post such a silly thing? Lots of devs are or have already moved to their own propritary sampler: VSL, EW, SF, OT, 8DIO, Cinesamples. And lots already have: Ivory, Superior Drummer, Spectrasonics, Real Guitar, Sample Modeling, the list is long. Limit yourself to Kontakt if you choose...


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## BezO (Oct 12, 2020)

Agreed! Not because I like Kontakt so much though. It's OK. Because I like the uniformity. Having to learn and get used to a different player is a pain.

But I also wish NI or the developers using the Kontakt player were able/willing to make all Kontakt libs NKS compatible. I like the tactile control using their controller.


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## ism (Oct 12, 2020)

There's definitely some pain in the early stages of the OT and SF players. 

But in the long term, Kontakt isn't being developed primarily for the benefit of orchestral libraries. And we're already seeing innovations in the OF and SF players that really do benefit the orchestral community. 

OT tends to narrate the technical benefits of their player a lot more clearly that SF to be sure. SF tends to focus on narrating the supposed benefits of their website-like graphic design, which is probably not of much actual value to the kind of community we have here. 

But at the same time, look at what the SF player can do in shifting between different version of the BBCSO - there's real value here that you could never do in Kontakt. True, I'd rather have purge functionality in the short term. But in the long terms I think it's very promising of greater things to come specifically designed for orchestral samples from both OT and SF. And don't forget that the SF player draws of Hans Zimmer's proprietary orchestral sample player technology. 


I find Sine kind of a pain compared to Kontakt in the short term also. But in the bigger picture, I think it's great the the Kontakt monopoly has been broken, and I'm more than happy to suffer some short term pain in exchange for really opening up innovation in not just sampleing technology in general - but specifically *orchestral* sampling. Which, much as I love, Kontakt, we're just not their primary market any more.


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## Alex Fraser (Oct 12, 2020)

I think folks have some sort of Stockholm syndrome relationship with the Kontakt GUI. It's 2020 and Kontakt is still low-res in a weirdly small window with tiny fonts. The library listing doesn't scroll properly using the Mac trackpad - I have to use the scroll bar like an animal. Stuff like that. Let's be honest. If it was released today, VIC would tear into it.

I love NI but it's clear their focus is elsewhere. Bring on the new players.


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 12, 2020)

At this point kontakt is not going anywhere, so don’t worry about it. Half of what NI sells in sample content runs in kontakt! It will still be around for a long time. It’s already very deep.

I welcome other players too though for many of the reasons already cited. I don’t think anyone has really made yet something on Par with VSL’s sample player which is currently the best in existence for orchestra work, but maybe someone will eventually develop a general use player that is, and then we will all benefit. Ideally with low or zero licensing costs for content developers. Kontakt itself will never go that direction it’s already a huge monster with much capability but that makes it hard to change too. 

New development on new tools is very welcome here!


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## PuerAzaelis (Oct 12, 2020)

What's so good about VSL's Synchron player


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## Dewdman42 (Oct 12, 2020)

It can do almost everything vipro can do plus some improvements. I do wish they would make it do those little things only vipro can do but still it does a whole lot and provides a huge amount of user flexibility to setup keyswitches, layers, etc there are lots of threads in this topic already. I still think even synchron player is ahead of the rest of the market for orchestral sample player.


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## RobbertZH (Oct 12, 2020)

We are talking about sample player software.
And often/always they require disc streaming to play the samples.

The more sample player software we use, does this increase the chance that the sample player software conflict with each other (who has the fastest access to the disc for streaming and who fails to stream the sample in time)?


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## muziksculp (Oct 12, 2020)

I totally disagree. 

Having the sampling industry rely on Kontakt would be a big mistake. I'm very happy to see developers moving away from Kontakt.


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## JLKooistra (Oct 12, 2020)

Please avoid people preaching "Please avoid Proprietary Romplers (Spitfire Player, SINE, PLAY)"


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## brek (Oct 12, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> The library listing doesn't scroll properly using the Mac trackpad - I have to use the scroll bar like an animal.



It scrolls fine on my Mac - both with the trackpad and mouse. Scrolling the libraries on Windows, on the other hand, is . I also use the search feature to get around the scrolling issues.


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## kitekrazy (Oct 12, 2020)

Kontakt Player is also proprietary.


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## lastmessiah (Oct 12, 2020)

kitekrazy said:


> Kontakt Player is also proprietary.



Yeah, I was gonna say. In what world is Kontakt not proprietary. And not to mention, old and ugly and clunky.


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## Michel Simons (Oct 12, 2020)

brek said:


> It scrolls fine on my Mac - both with the trackpad and mouse. Scrolling the libraries on Windows, on the other hand, is . I also use the search feature to get around the scrolling issues.



They improved the scrollability some time ago.


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## Manaberry (Oct 12, 2020)

Oh, you Pedro just had a hard time with another player or something :D


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## newman (Oct 12, 2020)

For classical piano playability, VSL and Garritan (Aria) are generally well liked at PianoWorld forums.

Enough people complain about piano pedaling in Kontakt so maybe that is an area for improvement.


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## KerrySmith (Oct 12, 2020)

I disagree, respectfully. Although a lot of the newer non-NI, cottage-developer sample-playback platforms are still finding their way, at least they are being coded with a focus on how they'll be used in "orchestral" projects, and on modern hardware. Kontakt has been great, but the codebase is so old at this point, it doesn't seem to be nimble enough to easily adapt to changing tech - like being able to leverage NVME/SSD speeds when loading a whole template of orchestral NKIs on new, fast hardware. Some folks with new Mac Pros or Ryzens still think that loading their template still takes too long... and NI has to deal with coding for compatibility with Apple Silicon now? I can't even run Massive X on my souped-up 2012 Mac Pro b/c the CPU doesn't have the AVX-512 instruction set of modern Intel chips. Will Apple Silicon wreck the AVX reliance, as well? 

Look, Kontakt was great, and still is really good for a lot of things. But until NI is able to re-code it in a way that gives notable speed, efficiency and ease-of-use improvements (especially in a big Orchestral VI Session/Project) I am willing to hope that the other devs can do better with their projects. Not holding my breath, though.


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## jaketanner (Oct 12, 2020)

The biggest issue I have with proprietary players is the lack of ability to have multiple libraries stacked within one player. If I want to layer BBC with any other library, I need to open two different players. Any Kontakt instrument I just load them in order and done...allows a/b of sounds to be fast and efficient...not to mention it's a sampler too...so if I have a sound I like, I can just sample it in there as a layer. 

I think we need both Kontakt, and developer GIUs...So then if developers want to make their own players...at the very least incorporate all the features and functions that are most used within Kontakt so that we are not left having to rethink our workflow. Even Synchron Player which is pretty good, is a bit cumbersome to layer sounds, and no where near the flexibility that Kontakt has.


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## d.healey (Oct 12, 2020)

Kontakt is a proprietary format (and one that I think is on the way out, although it will be a slow death).


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## Mike Greene (Oct 12, 2020)

Kontakt has a lot of benefit for those of us who use a lot of libraries, but for rookies, it can be a very challenging process that's difficult to understand. Consider all the steps involved if you've never done this before. We get a lot of people complaining or confused about it, especially with products like Hip Hop Creator and Realivox Blue, where many customers have never even heard of Kontakt. It would be much easier for them if we had our own player.


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## mybadmemory (Oct 12, 2020)

I believe this is totally unavoidable as companies grow. For any smaller developer starting out, not having to develop internal technology and just release libraries on a ready-made platform is great.

However as developers grow, they will undoubtedly come to a point where they want to control the entire experience and path to consumers themselves. Partly to be able to innovate faster, and not be held back by other companies product roadmaps (or lack thereof), and partly to get the full profit themselves, rather than to share it with someone else. We see this in all industries, and it's very understandable from a developer point of view.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Oct 12, 2020)

I don't think it's good when a single product dominates an entire market.
The danger is that NI will get lazy because they are the default anyway. 
With big developers moving away from Kontakt they might feel forced to revolutionize Kontakt to make it attractive for the rest to stay or some of the others to return, at least for some products maybe. 
Competition is good. And these new players will certainly become more and more stable over time. 
The benefit of shaking up the market is probably greater on the long run.


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## szczaw (Oct 12, 2020)

I can think of few reasons why in-hous sample player makes perfect sense for large and popular developers that can afford to pay for it: piracy prevention, additional revenue through subscription model, implementing library specific features, implementing features that are not found in Kontakt.


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## Mike Fox (Oct 12, 2020)

Pedro Camacho said:


> This is an open call to all esteemed developers.
> I do support developers as much as I can.
> 
> Please don't leave Kontakt... seriously. I have never met a success case yet (better playability, speed, reliability, ease to use, ram saving, SSD optimization (to use less ram)) compared to Kontakt.
> ...


So much truth to this.

Just look at how long it took EastWest to get PLAY right. 

Or take a look at the recent Spitfire player poll. The resuts are overwhemingly in favor of Kontakt.

On the flipside, I can understand if a developer would rather be dependant on their own player, but not at the expense of the customer being their personal guinea pig. They really need to iron their shit out before rolling out a bug infested/inconvenient/ user unfriendly engine.

Do it right, and people will approve.

I'm not saying that Kontakt is perfect, but when a developer releases an engine that's so bad it actually prevents customers from buying their libraries, they should probably re-think some things.

If a developer was smart about it, they'd create an engine that took everything everyone loves about Kontakt, then add even more features that really enhanced the utility of the library.


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## Film Sounds (Oct 12, 2020)

Ugh... At the risk of sounding like a guy who thinks he knows things...

Kontakt is NOT the future.
Innovation disrupts, not following standards. (StaffPad, Infinite Brass, etc.)
VSL has endless features. Stable, but right? No way. Just agile. Hardly the future of sampling.
You should never have to look at a sampler, so a central uniform tool isn't the issue.

UX = Software is like a joke. If you have to explain it, it's not that good.

I read manuals. I like to make use of what I have. But I once designed a DAW/Notation hybrid, fleshed out features, and wasted time being an idealist... every time I got to the sampler, I realized more and more that the ideal UX is to simply not have a sampler GUI at all. Everyone SAYS they want simple, open, free, universal, and stable. Awesome, maybe it can make breakfast too. Simplicity has far more value though.

*I care less about GUI and standards and branding in every corner and more about whether the product is any good.* If Spitfire sounded as good as Spitfire and as agile as Infinite Brass and it only ran in FL Studio, I'd buy FL Studio today. The sampler isn't nearly as important as workflow. I'm not ranting about Spitfire's agility either. I'm saying that which platforms are used is not nearly as important as whether they are used well.

Open is great for UX and I either do things open or I make it open by ripping it apart. I value having control over my tools. Call me obsessive. But that still matters less than having something work right. I can't control StaffPad. I can't put my sounds in it (wish I could), but I still use StaffPad more than Dorico and S1 more than Cubase. I like all of them in different ways. But the future? The thing companies OUGHT to do?

The platform really isn't the important thing. It's doing what you do as well as you can.


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## Salorom (Oct 12, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> It should read: if you can't do it like VSL, stick to Kontakt.


Pretty much


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## sinkd (Oct 12, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> I think folks have some sort of Stockholm syndrome relationship with the Kontakt GUI.


This is funny.


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## RonOrchComp (Oct 12, 2020)

kitekrazy said:


> Kontakt Player is also proprietary.



Not in the same way SINE, PLAY, and the SFA player are, no it is not.


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 12, 2020)

Film Sounds said:


> VSL has endless features. Stable, but right? No way. Just agile. Hardly the future of sampling.



Not quite sure what you mean by this. VSL Synchron player is very stable for me, never had it crash once yet, and it's very flexible.

Of course it's not the future of sampling - it's not a sampler - it's a sample player....


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## Paul Cardon (Oct 12, 2020)

I think you HAVE to be at least a little worried about what Native Instruments was trying to do with their ecosystem. Komplete Kontrol and NKS are neat as a concept but scary as a standard. The demand people have now for libraries to be NKS and Player compatible, the extra busywork to prepare a library and all the patch previews plus Player fees, the whole "Player" vs. "non-Player" thing that still trips up users, etc.

I think devs were seeing the writing on the wall, that creating a user dependence on NI's slow-moving standards and software was beginning to grab devs by the balls. Hell, Spitfire's ditching Kontakt and they still have the need to make all their new plugins NKS compatible because NI thinks "industry standards" are something that requires everyone to use their exclusive closed software/hardware and they've got enough users hooked on it that it's a bad idea not to.

NKS would be fine on its own, but it wouldn't have succeeded without NI's market dominance, and having devs entire livelihoods also attached to a piece of gradually antiquated software with glacier-like update schedules and then have NKS show up, tightening down a reliance on playing to Native Instruments game, leaves a sour taste.

There are probably devs at NI doing great stuff, in fact, I'm certain of it! It's not easy work. But NI's broader end goal as a company is definitely market dominance, and if they can't keep up on development and updates, not to mention their nearly non-existent support, then do they deserve that hold on the sampling industry?


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## novaburst (Oct 12, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> developers , please don’t allow the industry to become too dependent on one engine.



This


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## novaburst (Oct 12, 2020)

I do like Kontakt, to me very reliable has some very nice features Batch save and so on.

I have noticed that Kontakt is not pushing for innovation does it need to or does kontakt depend on developers to do that through the library.

One thing i think from a Developer's point of view (not me ) but what can you do when you see and hear of 20 thousand of your libraries are now being used but you did not see any sale increase or profit.

Yes you guessed it they have all been cracked to be used with Kontakt i think one issue is when a sampler has been around for so long people who dont want to pay get very familiar with what to do with it to use libraries for free ( crack)

I think developers have a duty not only to the user but also the welfare of there team if there are ways to make your product more secure but the existing program just is not working then you need to find another way hence a new player with better security, plus it gives you a chance for innovation.

once more it keeps the prices balanced


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## Everratic (Oct 12, 2020)

Bestservice's Engine is far more reliable than Kontakt in my case. It doesn't crash, and I can load instruments from any library, stored anywhere in my drives, in seconds.


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## Saxer (Oct 12, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> Just look at how long it took EastWest to get PLAY right.
> 
> Or take a look at the recent Spitfire player poll. The resuts are overwhemingly in favor of Kontakt.


Remember how long it took to get Kontakt right? I remember different versions like "Kompakt" and crashes throughout with Kontakt 2. When pressing play in the DAW Kontakt 2 threw all the release samples from the previous chord as a big ff-tutti cluster at once. The first usable Kontakt version for me was K3. Non of the current developers published such buggy player versions. Ok, different times. NI was in uncharted territory at that time but their customers were a big beta testing crowd.
When new engines get their time they will be as good as Kontakt plus the innovation of the developers.


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## Mike Fox (Oct 12, 2020)

Saxer said:


> Remember how long it took to get Kontakt right? I remember different versions like "Kompakt" and crashes throughout with Kontakt 2. When pressing play in the DAW Kontakt 2 threw all the release samples from the previous chord as a big ff-tutti cluster at once. The first usable Kontakt version for me was K3. Non of the current developers published such buggy player versions. Ok, different times. NI was in uncharted territory at that time but their customers were a big beta testing crowd.
> When new engines get their time they will be as good as Kontakt plus the innovation of the developers.


I can't say i do remember that, since I really didn't get on the scene until Kontakt 3 or 4, and Kontakt has been a solid player for me since.

Regardless, my opinion about using customers as beta subjects still stands, and it looks like NI is just as guilty in that regard. Those bastards.


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## RSK (Oct 12, 2020)

PuerAzaelis said:


> What's so good about VSL's Synchron player


How much time do you have?


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## Mike Fox (Oct 12, 2020)

I think a question everyone can ask themselves is how much do you like the developer's products?

If you like them enough, you're more than likely going to stick with them through thick and thin, regardless of how shitty their player might be. You'll just cope and keep your fingers crossed that brighter days are in the not too distant future.

If you're generally not a fan or are just neutral about a certain developer, then it probably shouldn't even matter whether or not they push out their own player.

But again, If developers design a solid player, I think be more customers will be on board.


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## jcrosby (Oct 12, 2020)

Heinigoldstein said:


> Mmh, I do understand, that it seems a lot easier having most libraries in Kontakt and I agree concerning reliability (with the exception of the old VSL-Player probably) I still don´t like Play, Engine and I´m not to crazy about the SF-Player. But I see a lot of potential in SINE.
> 
> Better playability - maybe Speed, ease of use, RAM saving - absolutely ! Even without mic merging.And with it´s miles ahead IMHO. It still needs a bit of polishing , 2-3 features are missing and of course it needs to run (much) more solid. But hey it´s SINE 1.0. vs. Kontakt 5.8. or even 6 and the last update was a huge step forward already.


I think eventually when OT's finally worked out the kinks Sine may wind up being the only other player comparable to VSL.

No other sampler has a mic merge feature. It's data compression is much more efficient for disk usage, and it's CPU use is 1/3 of Kontakt's, if not moreso. They've also mentioned that we'll eventually see Teldex IRs for reverb, (Implying sends/returns), you can remove dynamic layers for a tighter range if needed, etc.

Basically Sine offers its own set of features that are useful, and it already has a better feature set than SF's player does even though SF's had 3-4 years of development to improve it.


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## gsilbers (Oct 12, 2020)

With NI not really doing much about piracy then no doubt those companies rather protect their big inventments other ways. plus not have to pay those hefty encode /license fees. And yet, seems a lot of poeple still dont know the difference between player and full versions :/
Also sucks for composers who pay $1k for a library to later see kids getting it for free with just a simple keygen released the same damn day the product came out.


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## Eric G (Oct 12, 2020)

You need stable standards in industries to grow. Like it or not, the explosion in sample libraries is largely do to Kontakt with close support of VSL that made 1000 instrument templates possible.

But in order to move the industry forward you always need challengers that break away from current technologies. A "better" Kontakt is not what we need. It will only provide incremental benefits. Sorry Spitfire, EastWest and even VSL Player (IMHO definitely incrementally better)

It has to be a technology that requires you to ABANDON your existing investments in the old technology for REVOLUTIONARY Benefits.

SWAM/Modeled instruments come to mind but the technology isn't REVOLUTIONARY ENOUGH YET.

When this new technology shows itself in the next 10 years you will know it. And you will ABANDON everything you have to get it. Or Not


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Oct 12, 2020)




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## Mike Fox (Oct 12, 2020)

Eric G said:


> You need stable standards in industries to grow. Like it or not, the explosion in sample libraries is largely do to Kontakt



Still is. There's a reason why certain developers continue to do sales/promotions with NI. OT is one of the biggest names in the industry, yet it wasn't too long ago where they shortly partnered with NI.


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## AndyP (Oct 12, 2020)

I find Kontakt ok to use. Sometimes I don't find it really intuitive and the user interface is not up to date anymore. Access to the single outputs and effects is extremely cumbersome.
Play is ok (does what it should and is easy to use), Engine is good, but sometimes too fiddly to use. Sine is getting better, I can't really love the SA Player, especially if you have a lot of articulations or mics it gets confusing (too much flipping).

The Synchron Player is in my opinion the most intuitive player on the market. The possibility to mix articulations of different VSL libraries in one instance is unique. A clear and intuitive interface. I can immediately see which controllers are assigned where.
Polyphonic legato for all legato patches, no matter which Synchron Player library you use.
A mix section that is second to none. 
Unfortunately you can only use VSL libraries with the Synchron Player.

Basically I like alternatives, but some of them are not yet mature.


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## Eric G (Oct 12, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> Still is. There's a reason why certain developers continue to do sales/promotions with NI. OT is one of the biggest names in the industry, yet it wasn't too long ago where they shortly partnered with NI.



Yep. It doesn't mean the standard is the BEST. It just IS and is the foundation for NO NAME developers to enter the market easier (they don't have the money to build a sampler). Ultimately this benefits the Market (us).


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## Mike Fox (Oct 12, 2020)

gsilbers said:


> With NI not really doing much about piracy then no doubt those companies rather protect their big inventments other ways. plus not have to pay those hefty encode /license fees. And yet, seems a lot of poeple still dont know the difference between player and full versions :/
> Also sucks for composers who pay $1k for a library to later see kids getting it for free with just a simple keygen released the same damn day the product came out.


gmo!!!

Do you think pirates will figure out ways to crack proprietary systems? That's a concern of mine. Seems like as piracy prevention methods evolve, those bloody pirates evolve a long with.


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## jcrosby (Oct 12, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> Still is. There's a reason why certain developers continue to do sales/promotions with NI. OT is one of the biggest names in the industry, yet it wasn't too long ago where they shortly partnered with NI.


And co-developed and released Arkhis with NI.


I think this thread can summed up as a response to fear of change, disruption, etc.

There is a lot of disruption in the music industry that's worthy of anxiety. New sample players coming to market shouldn't even make the list.


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## purple (Oct 12, 2020)

OT switching to the SINE player is the only reason I own some of their instruments... The a-la-carte purchasing is one of the best things ever and I expect I will be buying lots of patches from them. KONTAKT is great, but it limits dev flexibility, so I don't mind them making their own engine at all!


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## Mike Fox (Oct 12, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> And co-developed and released Arkhis with NI.
> 
> 
> I think this thread can summed up as a response to fear of change, disruption, etc.
> ...



If there is fear of change, I wouldn't toss it out the window. Instead, I think it's actually worthy to ask why people might be afraid of that change.

For the most part, it seems like there are people who are completely content with Kontakt, and are concerned that if every developer releases their own player, then they might be plagued with issues that could take years of ironing out.

That kind of concern isn't irrational at all.

For me, it's not the change that concerns me, it's the consequences that may be inherently attached to that change.


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## RSK (Oct 12, 2020)

Eric G said:


> Yep. It doesn't mean the standard is the BEST. It just IS and is the foundation for NO NAME developers to enter the market easier (they don't have the money to build a sampler). Ultimately this benefits the Market (us).


 
Agreed. MIDI may not have been the best standard, but it moved the industry forward by a huge leap and anyone could use it to do more than their product was capable of alone. But has Kontakt had the same effect? I definitely prefer it to Spitfire's app or to SINE, but also think Synchron is better. 

Standards aren't always decided on what is technologically better (see: VHS vs Beta). But usually they move the industry forward in a good way. Can you imagine if MIDI never took hold?


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## gsilbers (Oct 12, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> gmo!!!
> 
> Do you think pirates will figure out ways to crack proprietary systems? That's a concern of mine. Seems like as piracy prevention methods evolve, those bloody pirates evolve a long with.



thats true. vsl has it tied down t elciencer, right? 
not sure the new ones. 
but its just easier to just crack a NI library than to figure out new software code.


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## Film Sounds (Oct 12, 2020)

Michael Antrum said:


> Not quite sure what you mean by this. VSL Synchron player is very stable for me, never had it crash once yet, and it's very flexible.
> 
> Of course it's not the future of sampling - it's not a sampler - it's a sample player....



No, I said VSL's sampler IS stable. It's also flexible. That just has nothing to do with whether it's doing things right. If moving away from Kontakt allowed Spitfire to behave like Infinite and somehow required 10MB of RAM and 1% CPU to run the entire library, no one would care about Kontakt.

Kontakt vs Proprietary is the wrong question. What matters is whether they do things well.

StaffPad's tap to add/swap libraries makes Expression Maps 10 years outdated. It doesn't follow a standard. It does something MUCH much better. Good DESIGN trims all the fat except what users actually need and designs in such a way that the path for a user to fill that need is as short and accessible as possible. A sample player and sampler are the same thing to me, because I sample for myself first. Not a popular opinion, but then again... most samplers aren't universally popular.


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## Film Sounds (Oct 12, 2020)

Yes... let's all stick with Kontakt cause we know it and have control over it.







Or if that seems unfair...






Meanwhile... Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, and Cinesamples all work in a sampler here that you never have to look at, tweak settings in, etc.






Again, I'm not saying StaffPad is perfect. I love it, but I'd also love a couple more CC/note editing features. All I'm saying is that I can see why people DON'T want to stick with Kontakt also. Good UX will never exist with Kontakt / Kontakt Player. Ever. The future is elsewhere.


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## sinkd (Oct 12, 2020)

Spitfire's swap library feature with the new BBCSO versions/levels is reason enough to disagree with the OP. Could not be done with Kontakt and is the perfect way to deploy that library.


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## Mike Fox (Oct 12, 2020)

sinkd said:


> Spitfire's swap library feature with the new BBCSO versions/levels is reason enough to disagree with the OP. Could not be done with Kontakt and is the perfect way to deploy that library.



Yeah, apparently Spitfire's player is the way to go. 





The OP must be waaay off.


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## JonS (Oct 12, 2020)

I think overtime the SINE and Spitfire Players will be just fine and eventually offer good improvements over Kontakt, so patience is called for. VSL's players are pretty solid already.


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## Film Sounds (Oct 12, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> Yeah, apparently Spitfire's player is the way to go.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



While that is an epic reply... 

McDonald's, Apple, Google, Microsoft, governments are just a few that hired the former Harvard Economics Professor, Clay Christensen, after publishing his theory on disruptive innovation. He ended up showing McDonald's that the way to increase sales had little to do with asking customers what they want. I want more flavors, more options, more this, more that. The real metric to look at is whether it does the job needing to be done. Increasing the straw size on their milk shakes helped sales more than flavors did. When you understand that, you understand that customer feedback has to be carefully reviewed.

Sorry to beat a horse here, but my last point about bloat speaks volumes about this. Kontakt could add every feature Spitfire and Orchestral Tools and VSL have done... every last feature... and still fail horribly because the user experience of using Kontakt still is harder to use to do the job people are trying to do.

How well it serves the point of composing matters more.


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## Mike Fox (Oct 12, 2020)

Film Sounds said:


> How well it serves the point of composing matters more.



Yeah, thank goodness for giant reverb knobs! Not sure where my compositions would be without them.


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## Mike Fox (Oct 12, 2020)

Film Sounds said:


> While that is an epic reply...
> 
> McDonald's, Apple, Google, Microsoft, governments are just a few that hired the former Harvard Economics Professor, Clay Christensen, after publishing his theory on disruptive innovation. He ended up showing McDonald's that the way to increase sales had little to do with asking customers what they want. I want more flavors, more options, more this, more that. The real metric to look at is whether it does the job needing to be done. Increasing the straw size on their milk shakes helped sales more than flavors did. When you understand that, you understand that customer feedback has to be carefully reviewed.
> 
> ...


Oh, and high number of sales doesn't necessarily reflect customer satisfaction!

While I don't think there's anything wrong with carefully reviewing customer requests, I do believe that the customer usually knows what they want, especially if they're an experienced customer.

I only know this because I spent most of my adult life working in customer service, so I speak from first hand experience, and not statistics. 

And I don't care about milkshake straws...I just want them to bring back the McRib!


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## PaulieDC (Oct 12, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> Oh, and high number of sales doesn't necessarily reflect customer satisfaction!


True, Buick sells more cars than Aston-Martin.

NI charges quite a fee to library makers in order for the free Kontakt player to be used, so when something like Berlin Strings comes out in SINE version I'd like to see a bit of a price cut. I wonder if that's why Spitfire puts BBCSO Pro on sale for $749, and even full pop $999 is quite good for the whole Shebang.

I'd be fine with everything in its own player because eventually OT's a SpitFire's will get to VSL status. Then your player is tailored to your library, instead of fitting the library to make it work in Kontakt. For example, the Synchron Player for my CFX library, and when I upgrade to the collection I just choose the piano at the top and the UI stays the same and is so easy to use.

This is an interesting debate and I think it boils down to this: if you're immersed in Kontakt you most likely don't want to change when it's working fine for you. If you are getting off the ground with all this like I am and don't have a ton of experience with Kontakt, fine, I'll ditch Kontakt and get used to the custom players. My first real library was EW CC+ subscription in 2016 (I subscribed when I had no idea how it worked but everyone seemed to like it so I tried it), so I got used to Play, I'm fine with it. Wow, how many people say _that_, lol.

Anymore I just go to BBCSO to work out ideas now instead of SCS because the player is simple and I have my controllers wired up CC-wise. As a long-time software developer, here's what I'm not so enamored about with Kontakt: there's so much, you're not really sure if you know what you don't know, so it's hard to get comfy with the UI. It looks quite nice, I could stare at the column on the left of SpitFire colors and muted Berlin earth tones, but that navigation forces you to stop and thing, where am I in the hierarchy? Do I go up another level? You figure it out but that's just it, you have to think too much about what level within BB I am or that by second nature I double-clicked on the library, forgetting I had another loaded so now I need to delete the top library on the right and change the MIDI channel back to 1 on the one I DO want. I'm sure all that is configurable, and speaking of, I found out just how programmable Kontakt is. But that's just it: I'm a lead software architect for a global semi-conductor company, do I want to come home and switch hats to student-of-orchestration and start thinking about what CODE I can write? NOPE. Pro composers who have complex setups, sure, that's probably a great strength, there's a +1 for Kontakt for a specific group.

Kontakt in a nutshell to me is like driving a world-class RV decked with every feature, but just to go grocery shopping and having to deal with parking and traffic gets a bit cumbersome. OK, that comparison is overkill, lol, but I guess I'm still in the "slap it in Cubase and start playing" mode, lol. Nonetheless, Kontakt was around before OT and SA rose to fame, it's not going anywhere, especially on the strength of its own KOMPLETE collections, pop and EDM live by it, and newer patch makers need and existing player and many choose it, so if a majority of orchestral folks jump tp dedicated players, seems like impact would be minimal.

This reply was way too long and dinner's ready so it's going out as-is.


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## Eric G (Oct 12, 2020)

Film Sounds said:


> Again, I'm not saying StaffPad is perfect. I love it, but I'd also love a couple more CC/note editing features. All I'm saying is that I can see why people DON'T want to stick with Kontakt also. Good UX will never exist with Kontakt / Kontakt Player. Ever. The future is elsewhere.



I am the guy that started one of the longer StaffPad threads. And StaffPad is fixed within my workflow. However, I recognize StaffPad limitations to broad adoption as:

It has a closed ecosystem. i.e. there is no openly available SDK for developers to use to extend their sample libraries and make it playable in their AMAZING playback engine.(Today, STAFFPADS REVOLUTIONARY TECH turns out to be their playback engine more than the handwriting recognition)
the lack of accommodation (so far) for PC or MIDI keyboard entry as a fallback other than handwriting notation is a barrier for capable keyboardist. Why trade my weak writing skills for my years as trained pianist? (productivity matters)
REVOLUTIONARY handwriting recognition would recognize EVERYONE 99% of the time. PERIOD. Is that POSSIBLE? I don't know but it doesn't do that today and that blocks broader adoption. 
Can it get there ABSOLUTELY, I love writing notation and I believe these barriers will fall down in the next several years.
BUT the biggest concern is #1


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## Gieve (Oct 12, 2020)

I personally agree with you. Of course, not everyone does, and that's life. What I do is pretty simple: I usually only buy Kontakt based libraries. The competition is now diverse enough so you don't need to stick to any developpers. You'll always find similar sounds elsewhere. Too bad for Phoenix Orchestra, because I was tempted, but I guess I'll buy Jade from Strezov and that's it. That being said, I also sometimes use Elastik (which I'm not a fan of, but Ueberschall has a pack of interesting stuff) and Engine (a few great stuff from Best Service too). But, at the end, I realize that while I really like these libraries, I still end up doing most of my stuff on Kontakt. So, I know that if I buy a library on something else than Kontakt, I'll probably won't use it much, which is a good argument not to buy.


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## Casiquire (Oct 12, 2020)

I disagree that everyone should use Kontakt but i also disagree that it should become obsolete. It is really amazing for making my own libraries. It has its uses. I think what's going on right now is perfect: a lot of the big devs are leaving it, and a lot of new devs are starting out with it.


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## Film Sounds (Oct 12, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> Yeah, thank goodness for giant reverb knobs! Not sure where my compositions would be without them.



They'd be drier... yet you'd still have been able to compose... to do "the job".

My only point: Kontakt shouldn't be the open standard we all come back to.

McD's is terrible, but... they do quality really well, just not with the food. Quality in speed and location. That's why people go there, to do that job, not taste as much. Kontakt, Spitfire, VSL, Sine... none do the job terribly well compared to StaffPad. StaffPad's sampler also isn't open, which first thought I'd prefer. However, that opens the door to messing around with samples more than writing music. The two also overlap, of course. A reverb knob can be automated as part of the composition. So this is a messy subject. But with as many pain points I've had using Kontakt, then developing for Kontakt, even trying to use Creator Tools scripts to export my instruments to SFZ, only to find that they don't export consistently... geez, what a proprietary nightmare Kontakt is. The fact that Chicken Systems and Kontakt GUI builders even exist is a testament to how much of a pain it can be to work with. And don't get me started on how limiting KSP is. Kontakt 5 and fonts... [email protected])#(HT)@#(%U!

Okay, breathe Sean... breathe.

Kontakt shouldn't be the open standard we fall back on. It's not even open.


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## Film Sounds (Oct 12, 2020)

Casiquire said:


> I disagree that everyone should use Kontakt but i also disagree that it should become obsolete. It is really amazing for making my own libraries. It has its uses. I think what's going on right now is perfect: a lot of the big devs are leaving it, and a lot of new devs are starting out with it.



Fair enough. Though, this new dev is already starting to look away from Kontakt. I've had enough people saying "oh, sorry... I don't own the full Kontakt" to realize it's not worth it. And I'm not paying a license fee while SFZ exists. Even Hise I believe has a free player option. Kontakt is useful to have and own. I just don't see it being central to the future of samples, nor would I want it to be.


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## jcrosby (Oct 12, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> If there is fear of change, I wouldn't toss it out the window. Instead, I think it's actually worthy to ask why people might be afraid of that change.
> 
> For the most part, it seems like there are people who are completely content with Kontakt, and are concerned that if every developer releases their own player, then they might be plagued with issues that could take years of ironing out.
> 
> ...


Most Kontakt developers don't have a very good track record of fixing issues in the first place. Sure some do, but more developers than not leave shit broken for years at a time already. Basically This already seems to be the case more often than not, custom sample player or no custom player.

Spitfire for example have become a lot more concerned with releasing a new product every month, Kontakt or otherwise, instead of fixing known issues that have existed for years now. Speaking of Spitfire they recently updated many QL products to be player products, (at no cost to the license holder). So it doesn't look to me to be the case that Kontakt has become in any way irrelevant as something for them to update.

On that same mentality, if OT were to address some editing or noise issues in various samples in products that exist in both Kontakt and Sine there's no reason to assume they wouldn't also issue a sample update for Kontakt. OT have actually been pretty decent about Kontakt updates in the past, I highly doubt they're MO is to leave Kontakt as an orphaned platform. Arkhis, to me, being proof enough that OT still see the relevance of Kontakt and haven't left it totally behind.

EW however have left Kontakt totally orphaned. Considering SF and OT have both made efforts to work with NI since developing their own platforms I personally don't see enough evidence to assume they'll make a hard right turn and leave NI fully in the rear view the way EW did. 

Is it a valid concern? Sure. But so far there's nothing to base that assumption on. Once there is then by all means... The concern would be warranted.


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## ism (Oct 12, 2020)

The other part of this dynamic is that the competition of other players might well in itself spur NI to invest heavily in orchestral oriented features in Kontakt ... so Kontakt coexisting with other players is win win, even for people who never buy a non-Kontakt library.

Kontakt being a monopoly on the other hand ... no reason to expect that should be good for anyone in the long term.

A uniform solution might be beneficial in the short term (measured against the teething problems endemic to developing new players). But definately not in anyone’s interests in the long term (other than NI shareholders).


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## Mike Fox (Oct 12, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Most Kontakt developers don't have a very good track record of fixing issues in the first place. Sure some do, but more developers than not leave shit broken for years at a time already. Basically This already seems to be the case more often than not.
> 
> Spitfire for example have become a lot more concerned with releasing a new product every month, Kontakt or otherwise, instead of fixing known issues that have existed for year now. Speaking of Spitfire they recently updated many QL products to be player products. So it doesn't look to me to be the case that Kontakt has become in any way irrelevant as something for them to update.
> 
> Is it a valid concern? Sure. But so far there's nothing to base that assumption on. Once there is then by all means... Totally valid concern.


Well, i wasn't really referring to library bugs, but rather player bugs, and especially player design flaws or design choices that may pose an inconvenience to the user.

And there's plenty to base that on. Again, just look at the Spitfire player poll, or the numerous threads of people complaining about the player.


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## jcrosby (Oct 12, 2020)

ism said:


> Kontakt being a monopoly on the other hand ... no reason to expect that should be good for anyone in the long term.


100%. Last I checked cornering a market wasn't good for the consumer... More products to choose from means more incentive for NI to start doing new and unique things with Kontakt.


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## Mike Fox (Oct 12, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> 100%. Last I checked cornering a market wasn't good for the consumer...



Tell me about it. Having no ISP choice aside from Comcast has been an absolute nightmare, lol!


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## jcrosby (Oct 12, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> Well, i wasn't really referring to library bugs, but rather player bugs, and especially player design flaws or design choices that may pose an inconvenience to the user.
> 
> And there's plenty to base that on. Again, just look at the Spitfire player poll, or the numerous threads of people complaining about the player.


Don't get me wrong man... I hate the SF player  I own two SF player products and it was a disaster from day one. Works now but I'm not going anywhere near their updater because that seems to be the root of all of SF player's woes. Every time I update a product something else breaks. They need to fire the development team handling that updater.

Rough launch aside, I do see OT thinking of Sine as an opportunity to bring new things to the table that they couldn't with Kontakt however. I think Sine ultimately will prove to be a good thing for the VI market.


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## jcrosby (Oct 12, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> If there is fear of change, I wouldn't toss it out the window. Instead, I think it's actually worthy to ask why people might be afraid of that change.
> 
> For the most part, it seems like there are people who are completely content with Kontakt, and are concerned that if every developer releases their own player, then they might be plagued with issues that could take years of ironing out.
> 
> ...


I hear that. My counter to that would be that I've also had Kontakt randomly put products into demo mode more than a few times. One of them was a chunk of my Ark collection which happened right as a brief requiring it came in. It wound up taking a good 2 weeks for NI to get back to me with an answer. OT had no resources to do anything about the issue.

Personally I'm a lot more concerned about NI's support model. That, at least to me, has a track record I can measure my concerns by. In the past couple issues requiring support take longer to get an answer to and they killed phone support which was a godsend when they had it.


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## ridgero (Oct 12, 2020)

Please avoid Linux, macOS, only use Windows!


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## Vik (Oct 12, 2020)

Kontakt has been around since 2002, and has been through a lot of bugs and bugfixes. I dont think anyone expected the new sample players to be bug free – and have a perfect user interface – from day one/the first few months or years. There are also limitations in Kontakt, which new/other players not necessarily will have. In the long run, it’s IMO great that Kontakt has strong competitors - even for Kontakt users.


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## Vik (Oct 12, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> you can remove dynamic layers for a tighter range if needed


 That has been possible, for years, in the Kontakt version of Berlin Strings etc too.


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## decredis (Oct 13, 2020)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


>


So Kontakt is a tasty cake but Synchron Player scratches and poos and is liable to parasites?


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## jcrosby (Oct 13, 2020)

Vik said:


> That has been possible, for years, in the Kontakt version of Berlin Strings etc too.


I don't own any of the Berlin series so wasn't aware. Not yet at least...


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## sinkd (Oct 13, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> Yeah, apparently Spitfire's player is the way to go.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did not say that the SF Player was the way to go for other existing libraries, or that their player would be better for existing libraries. I said that it was essential in order to deploy BBCSO in the way that they have, which I value especially as a teacher. The OP was essentially saying that developers should not innovate in this way because everyone is just fine with Kontakt forever and ever. Which I do disagree with.


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## Vik (Oct 13, 2020)

I really hope they port SSS, SCS etc over to the new player, and that it continues to be developed. One benefit, that some company (Spitfire?) mentioned the release of the SF player is that Kontakt has limitations which means that you can't have a fully fledged performance/smart/adaptive legato in the same preset/page you have the other articulations . I assume that this already is or will become doable in their own player.


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## Wunderhorn (Oct 13, 2020)

Please do not say "competition i good" when comparing Kontakt to SINE, Spitfire Player, PLAY etc.
Why? Because you are comparing apples and oranges as those players are NOT a platform like Kontakt under which other sample developers can release their libraries. Those are simply proprietary sample players serving primarily selfish goal. Not to enrich the market, not to make the user's life easier. It is to bind users and to increase sales and assume control.

Now, if there was another sample engine that allowed other developers to create content for it, that would be competition in a potentially beneficial way.


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## Mike Fox (Oct 13, 2020)

sinkd said:


> I did not say that the SF Player was the way to go for other existing libraries, or that their player would be better for existing libraries. I said that it was essential in order to deploy BBCSO in the way that they have, which I value especially as a teacher. The OP was essentially saying that developers should not innovate in this way because everyone is just fine with Kontakt forever and ever. Which I do disagree with.


I guess the emoji didn't make it obvious that i was just giving you a hard time.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 13, 2020)

Wunderhorn said:


> Please do not say "competition i good" when comparing Kontakt to SINE, Spitfire Player, PLAY etc.
> Why? Because you are comparing apples and oranges as those players are NOT a platform like Kontakt under which other sample developers can release their libraries. Those are simply proprietary sample players serving primarily selfish goal. Not to enrich the market, not to make the user's life easier. It is to bind users and to increase sales and assume control.
> 
> Now, if there was another sample engine that allowed other developers to create content for it, that would be competition in a potentially beneficial way.



And please don’t pretend that Native Instruments is this singularly noble company trying to “make the user’s life easier”. They exist to make money by selling their products and receiving license fees from developers.

Any _real_ motivation for them to “make the users’s life easier“ will come from how robust any alternatives become.


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## MartinH. (Oct 13, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> OT have actually been pretty decent about Kontakt updates in the past, I highly doubt they're MO is to leave Kontakt as an orphaned platform. Arkhis, to me, being proof enough that OT still see the relevance of Kontakt and haven't left it totally behind.


Maybe not orphaned but... step-childed? Last I checked their MA1 product page said the Kontakt version won't receive further updates, and you and me both know that it still has some issues, some of which they even aknowledged and seemingly wanted to fix. 
I don't know much about Arkhis, but with NI collabs I always think "maybe the pay on those deals is just too good to pass on?". That goes for past NKS sales too.


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## Wunderhorn (Oct 13, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> And please don’t pretend that Native Instruments is this singularly noble company trying to “make the user’s life easier”.



I did not say that. NI does not wear angel wings or a halo. Their attempt to pull the ability to register valid licenses of older EW libraries shows that clearly. It is just something that all things considered, still works best for the time being. Yes, and I still do need a darn microscope for their outdated GUI.


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## sinkd (Oct 13, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> I guess the emoji didn't make it obvious that i was just giving you a hard time.


Thanks, Mike. My response was a little prickly.


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## RobbertZH (Oct 13, 2020)

I hope Kontakt stays for tens of years.
If the company stops with Kontakt, the idea that I cannot use anymore the loads of kontakt libraries I have bought is 

Going back in time, we had the company of GigaStudio that stopped.
But as those Giga Libraries did not use copy protection, I can still use them on my windows 10 machine through the third party GigaPlayer.

Kontakt requires however authentication for many libraries.
What if Native Instruments stops and also stops its authentication server, then you never will be able anymore to re-install your libraries (e.g. on your new computer).
And the chance of a third party clone of Kontakt is I think non-existant.


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## ism (Oct 13, 2020)

Tens of years from now if we’re not using somethign better than Kontakt ... it will probably because we’re living in some kind of post apocalyptic world where we’re all too busy scrampling for food than investing in progressing sample player technology.

Seriously, think of how amazing - in fact barely imaginable - today’s Kontakt would be been tens of years ago ... and imagine how amazing - apocalypses (apocaypi?) notwithstanding - we might reasonably expect sample players (whether descendants of Kontakt or not) to be to our future selves.

Kontakt is already lumbering under the weight of a lot of legacy code, and the need to be all things to all people. The kind of massive, unexpected innovation in orchestral sampling that we might hope for is, one way or another, unlikely to a direct descendent of the current Kontakt.

(Questions I had never thought to ask in the pre-covid world #36: What is the plural of apocalypse?)


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 13, 2020)

ism said:


> What is the plural of apocalypse?)



Apocalypti ?


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## Paul Cardon (Oct 13, 2020)

It's funny that NI's goal is to make money when basically all of their licensing schemes and all Kontakt instruments are still, to this day, almost 100% pirate-able. Most devs know how easy it is for users to steal their libraries if they go the Kontakt Player route, and once that happens, all they can do is put someone on the mind-numbing task of constantly sending out DMCA notices to file-sharing websites and search engines in the hope that it might slow things down a little.


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## MartinH. (Oct 13, 2020)

ism said:


> Tens of years from now if we’re not using somethign better than Kontakt ... it will probably because we’re living in some kind of post apocalyptic world where we’re all too busy scrampling for food than investing in progressing sample player technology.
> 
> Seriously, think of how amazing - in fact barely imaginable - today’s Kontakt would be been tens of years ago ... and imagine how amazing - apocalypses (apocaypi?) notwithstanding - we might reasonably expect sample players (whether descendants of Kontakt or not) to be to our future selves.
> 
> ...



But wouldn't you want to at least be able to edit old projects in 10 to 20 years? What if a franchise thing you work on goes for over a decade and you're briefed to extend/adapt old cues into new material? Or what if you simply want to go back to old libraries out of nostalgia?


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## Land of Missing Parts (Oct 13, 2020)

I like everything in Kontakt whenever possible. It's great for tinkering, and allows me to go under the hood and learn the nuts and bolts of libraries. And to make my own modifications. And make my own libraries. Kontakt really is so much more than just a sample player.

Also, it doesn't crash my computer, and the other players often do.


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## Kent (Oct 13, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> But wouldn't you want to at least be able to edit old projects in 10 to 20 years? What if a franchise thing you work on goes for over a decade and you're briefed to extend/adapt old cues into new material? Or what if you simply want to go back to old libraries out of nostalgia?


You should see what Charlie Clouser does!


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## MartinH. (Oct 13, 2020)

kmaster said:


> You should see what Charlie Clouser does!



I was thinking of him when writing the post, but I don't use Logic. Isn't EXS logic-only?


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## Kent (Oct 13, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> I was thinking of him when writing the post, but I don't use Logic. Isn't EXS logic-only?


it is


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## Kent (Oct 13, 2020)

but you could approach some of that freedom via SFZ using, for example: https://www.plogue.com/products/sforzando.html


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## Land of Missing Parts (Oct 13, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> I was thinking of him when writing the post, but I don't use Logic. Isn't EXS logic-only?


Logic only. But it is possible for older versions of Kontakt to automatically translate to .nki upon opening.


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## ism (Oct 13, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> But wouldn't you want to at least be able to edit old projects in 10 to 20 years? What if a franchise thing you work on goes for over a decade and you're briefed to extend/adapt old cues into new material? Or what if you simply want to go back to old libraries out of nostalgia?



Backwards compatabity is a slightly different issue. My hope is that virtualization is going to be the solution to that one, once if filters down to the consumer level a bit more.


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## dcoscina (Oct 13, 2020)

I dunno if it's been already mentioned but I f+++++g hate downloading libraries through Native Access... it sucks. Even if you direct the download to an external SSD, the way it's set up, you still need enough boot drive cache space... My boot drive is fairly small. 256gb and it's been a royal PITA to try to download larger libraries through NA. 

Compare that to Spitfire or SINE which are more download friendly. I also get much faster speeds. NI has the slowest speeds for downloads I've encountered thus far. An exercise in frustration. 

so, please *continue* developing proprietary players Mr and Mrs sample developer.


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## kitekrazy (Oct 13, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> So much truth to this.
> 
> Just look at how long it took EastWest to get PLAY right.
> 
> ...



This happened to Yellow Tools. It had the strangest and failed authorization. This leads me to believe if you are developer and your first priority is locking down your product than stay out of the business.


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## Film Sounds (Oct 13, 2020)

kmaster said:


> but you could approach some of that freedom via SFZ using, for example: https://www.plogue.com/products/sforzando.html



Nuance, Directwave (FL Studio), and others support importing SFZ, so it's not a bad format to use. But bundling a sample player with your library is ideal for those who don't know what to use. Kontakt Player solves that and N.I.'s fees... it's no wonder Spitfire & OT did their own. The quitest way to get people using the sounds is ideal for any developer. I don't know anything about TX16Wx other than that it exists and has for a long time. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

To be fair to Native Instruments, among all this bashing...

I don't think Kontakt would be a bad central open standard, IF... it were at least balanced.
1 - A 100% free version that at least had x number of features for devs to get people using their sounds.
2 - An in-app way to upgrade, unlocking more sounds, with an in-app store to get them.
3 - A format with open XML so I could actually convert what I want half the bloody time! ANNOYING!

Native Instruments isn't the big bad evil wolf to me. It's just that the WAY they've chosen to restrict it is completely cumbersome for developers and users... all while it's not that safe of a format to use anyway.....? So it's lose-lose-lose unless you pay a hefty fee, and if you pay it you're still losing enough that the more you grow, the more you'll be inclined to develop your own sampler anyway.

Everything about this tells me I should just avoid Kontakt from here on out. Not bad to have, sure. But good to start on right now? That's more shaky. _Edit: Yet... they aren't far from getting it right. They just keep it locked up the wrong way. That's my real issue._


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## MartinH. (Oct 13, 2020)

dcoscina said:


> I dunno if it's been already mentioned but I f+++++g hate downloading libraries through Native Access... it sucks. Even if you direct the download to an external SSD, the way it's set up, you still need enough boot drive cache space... My boot drive is fairly small. 256gb and it's been a royal PITA to try to download larger libraries through NA.
> 
> Compare that to Spitfire or SINE which are more download friendly. I also get much faster speeds. NI has the slowest speeds for downloads I've encountered thus far. An exercise in frustration.
> 
> so, please *continue* developing proprietary players Mr and Mrs sample developer.



You can try setting a symbolic link for the directory that NI access downloads the temporary files to (if it's always the same) that points to another directory. Basically making it think it downloads to the boot drive, while saving the data wherever you want.


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## JohnG (Oct 13, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> But wouldn't you want to at least be able to edit old projects in 10 to 20 years? What if a franchise thing you work on goes for over a decade and you're briefed to extend/adapt old cues into new material? Or what if you simply want to go back to old libraries out of nostalgia?




It's commercially unreasonable to expect software to work in 10 or 20 years unless it's something like a text (or midi) file whose format and OS are not gyrating constantly.

If you want to be able to rework something a long time away, try a combo:

1. Audio, 

2. a midi export, and 

3. a score, even if the score is rudimentary.


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## JPQ (Oct 13, 2020)

To me if there is point do such like i feel vsl has. and scalable gui like spitfire own engine fine. but even then sounds dangerous but also otherways sounds dangerous use kontakt. both ways have own unique problems. i prefer good sounds only thing what i prefer and i try use spitfire labs stuff. some indeed inspring things here.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 14, 2020)

Just to clarify, I cam not anti-Kontakt. 75% of my libraries use it and I have been a Kontakt beta teater for many years.

i AM anti-“Kontakt only”.


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## nuyo (Oct 14, 2020)

The reasons why I use Kontakt:

1. All of my libraries are Kontakt based.
2. Kontakt is the only advanced sampler I know that can be used to create Libraries for every DAW.
3. I can create my own Libraries with it. Wich ist the bonus that no Sine, Spitfire, East West Sampler can give me.


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## Jrettetsoh (Oct 14, 2020)

Iron sharpens iron; let market competition naturally motivate better development paths and more efficient prices. We all benefit from this. (Of course, this should be balanced with valuing the quality of human life of the workers!) All in balance; nothing is sustainably free.


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## bill5 (Oct 14, 2020)

Pedro Camacho said:


> This is an open call to all esteemed developers.
> I do support developers as much as I can.
> 
> Please don't leave Kontakt... seriously. I have never met a success case yet (better playability, speed, reliability, ease to use, ram saving, SSD optimization (to use less ram)) compared to Kontakt.
> ...


Another open call to all esteemed developers. And this from a former developer himself:

In the name of mercy, PLEASE leave and scorn that total POFS that is Kontakt. I never "met" any other platform that sucked worse, to say nothing of NI and its policies/etc itself. 

But really the bigger issue IMO is the entire plugin within a plugin thing itself. Do us all a favor and don't support any such thing. Develop stand-alone plugins which don't need another damn plugin to work.


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## novaburst (Oct 15, 2020)

Jrettetsoh said:


> Iron sharpens iron; let market competition naturally motivate better development paths and more efficient prices. We all benefit from this.



+1 no guns out for kontakt, but it is healthy for more sample players in the world, you also appreciate the way other developers do things, 

This can only be a good thing


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## ptram (Oct 15, 2020)

I like to deal with different players. I don't like homogenized players!

Paolo


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## lpuser (Oct 15, 2020)

While I understand the pros and cons, my personal issue is, that with every new player and downloader, the amount of work involved with keep apps up-to-date is growing.
Native Access is a one-stop solution for both the apps and libraries (like it or not), so it just means: Open, hit "update" and you are good to go.

Today, thanks to multiple new players etc., my tasks are: Open this, check for updates, install - open that, check for updates, install - download the next, install ... and so forth. This is essentially taking away a lot of time I wished I could use more creatively. There are days where I feel more like a "download technician" than anything else. And that´s not a good thing.


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## novaburst (Oct 15, 2020)

lpuser said:


> While I understand the pros and cons, my personal issue is, that with every new player and downloader, the amount of work involved with keep apps up-to-date is growing.
> Native Access is a one-stop solution for both the apps and libraries (like it or not), so it just means: Open, hit "update" and you are good to go.
> 
> Today, thanks to multiple new players etc., my tasks are: Open this, check for updates, install - open that, check for updates, install - download the next, install ... and so forth. This is essentially taking away a lot of time I wished I could use more creatively. There are days where I feel more like a "download technician" than anything else. And that´s not a good thing.



It's not really that tedious to update software, most of the time unless there is big issues we forget or don't bother esp if all works fine and then it's only a drop down then click update and that's it not really a big deal, 

I think what can be a little more difficult is when you purchase a new library for any one player, esp o r things like ilok becuase you end up typing the code in to activate, or dongle, but still how often do we purchase libraries, for each player we have.


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## KEM (Oct 15, 2020)

I, for one, think SINE is far superior to Kontakt, it’s the best player I’ve ever seen.


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## Film Sounds (Oct 15, 2020)

KEM said:


> I, for one, think SINE is far superior to Kontakt, it’s the best player I’ve ever seen.



Really? Show me where I can put my own sounds in it and sell it to people then.

Proprietary + locked = garbage.

SINE isn't VST3, doesn't support auto-mapping properly but it's own cheap method that prohibits a "standard" template of any kind. It's messy, when they didn't even have to make the mess because solutions already existed. SINE, Spitfire, Synchron, VI-Pro... none of them are on iOS. StaffPad is. HISE = Windows, OSX, iOS, and Linux. Each company gets 5% right because they are managed by people who only ever seem to use their own DAW, their own writing approach, and so on.

I'm not hating on them, but no one is thinking about the big picture, just their own needs. Until they do, none of these, Kontakt or otherwise, is really all that better than the other. They just have a slice of the pie. I'd much rather have a universal Kontakt replacement with committed development than anything else we're seeing in the industry.


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## billkill (Oct 15, 2020)

Pedro Camacho said:


> This is an open call to all esteemed developers.
> I do support developers as much as I can.
> 
> Please don't leave Kontakt... seriously. I have never met a success case yet (better playability, speed, reliability, ease to use, ram saving, SSD optimization (to use less ram)) compared to Kontakt.
> ...


AMEN BBCSO BY SPITFIRE - sounds great - unusable in terms of CPU v v sad @SpitfireSupport


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## billkill (Oct 15, 2020)

KEM said:


> I, for one, think SINE is far superior to Kontakt, it’s the best player I’ve ever seen.


agreed ... it is very good BUT no AAX? makes it very buggy with Pro Tools @OrchestralTools


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## d.healey (Oct 15, 2020)

billkill said:


> agreed ... it is very good BUT no AAX? makes it very buggy with Pro Tools @OrchestralTools


I think AVID is more to blame for supporting only their own proprietary plugin format.


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## Raphioli (Oct 16, 2020)

Pedro Camacho said:


> SSD optimization (to use less ram)) compared to Kontakt.



Although it needs more refining, SINE has a huge advantage in this regard.
(Mixing multiple mics and generating a custom mic mix sample)

Of course that is until Kontakt implements a similar feature.
But I do agree, regarding other features, Kontakt is still way ahead.

But I also think competition is important.
What if Kontakt was the only sample player on the market?

N.I. could basically charge anything. (e.g $1k )
They could also go sub-based only and people will have to cave in to that, since high quality orchestral samples will only be available on Kontakt.
(its an extreme example, but I just wanted to make a point)

Basically devs/manufactures can listen less to consumer/prosumer and still make money.
So I think competition is important in any industry, so as long as those other sample players keep on optimizing and improving stability via updates, I'd like to support them.


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## novaburst (Oct 16, 2020)

Film Sounds said:


> I'm not hating on them, but no one is thinking about the big picture,



I think you need to give these players time to establish them selves, it just does not happen at the click of a finger your talking 10 years and over for kontakt but a a year or two for the others, 

This is is not a kontakt bashing it's just innovation and inspiration and encouraging development of other player's, not so much a sampler, becuase at the end of the day you can do sampling in your DAW but more to do with another player 

Variations and options and taste are good 

It's not bad


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## KerrySmith (Oct 16, 2020)

d.healey said:


> I think AVID is more to blame for supporting only their own proprietary plugin format.


Other devs seems to be able to code for AAX. OT also just released a new product created for Jeff Russo... who uses Pro Tools (according to the video that Spitfire posted of Jeff Russo working on the same day that Modus was released)


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## d.healey (Oct 16, 2020)

KerrySmith said:


> Other devs seems to be able to code for AAX.


And other DAWs seem to be able to support non-proprietary plugin formats...


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## Casiquire (Oct 16, 2020)

ism said:


> Tens of years from now if we’re not using somethign better than Kontakt ... it will probably because we’re living in some kind of post apocalyptic world where we’re all too busy scrampling for food than investing in progressing sample player technology.
> 
> Seriously, think of how amazing - in fact barely imaginable - today’s Kontakt would be been tens of years ago ... and imagine how amazing - apocalypses (apocaypi?) notwithstanding - we might reasonably expect sample players (whether descendants of Kontakt or not) to be to our future selves.
> 
> ...


I think you're overstating it. Truth be told today's Kontakt isn't THAT different from ten years ago, at least not in any obvious way I can remember. We already had some amazing instruments like LASS and the old Stradivarius violin, and the old Quantum Leap libraries. Kontakt is not exactly a miraculous, speedy innovator.


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## ism (Oct 16, 2020)

Casiquire said:


> I think you're overstating it. Truth be told today's Kontakt isn't THAT different from ten years ago, at least not in any obvious way I can remember. We already had some amazing instruments like LASS and the old Stradivarius violin, and the old Quantum Leap libraries. Kontakt is not exactly a miraculous, speedy innovator.



You're quite right Kontakt isn't all that different from 10 years ago (which says something, no?) But what I wrote was "tens" of years ago.


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## Casiquire (Oct 16, 2020)

ism said:


> You're quite right Kontakt isn't all that different from 10 years ago (which says something, no?) But what I wrote was "tens" of years ago.


It does say something for sure, playing to your point!


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## lpuser (Oct 25, 2020)

novaburst said:


> then it's only a drop down then click update and that's it not really a big deal



Not sure how many libraries and plugins you are using, but in my case it is a big deal for me (and I absolutely understand that it may not be for you). Having to keep my Mac updated for various reasons (one being beta tester) there is work involved which otherwise would not be required.
Personally, I am not fond of more workload, no matter how you put it, and every new player engine ups the ante here.


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## novaburst (Oct 26, 2020)

lpuser said:


> Personally, I am not fond of more workload, no matter how you put it, and every new player engine ups the ante here.



I think at least you have a choice in the end you don't really need to support any new development, of course then there is no need to be against it

I would rather be in a world where there is more and more innovation yes it can be a road of bugs and crashes, but does that mean all the development of new players should stop.


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 26, 2020)

Almost every time I can, I use UVI falcon instead of kontakt. I’m even considering resampling some kontakt libraries to use in falcon instead....

the proprietary market is hard because it tends to be more trouble than developers expect, but I’m slowly losing my appetite for native instruments and welcome the alternatives


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## jcrosby (Oct 26, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> Almost every time I can, I use UVI falcon instead of kontakt. I’m even considering resembling some kontakt libraries to use in falcon instead....
> 
> the proprietary market is hard because it tends to be more trouble than developers expect, but I’m slowly losing my appetite for native instruments and welcome the alternatives


Hell yeah. Falcon doesn't get enough love around here.

I also think the premise of this thread is silly. 3 cheers for a lack of innovation? Yeah no thanks.

There's an equal and opposite _possible outcome _without competitive innovation - complacency. Ableton are the best example I can think of OTTOMH, being 5-7 years behind stuff that's just standard in a DAW now... Frankly Kontakt is a bit behind the times as well...


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 26, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Hell yeah. Falcon doesn't get enough love around here.
> 
> I also think the premise of this thread is silly. 3 cheers for a lack of innovation? Yeah no thanks.
> 
> There's an equal and opposite _possible outcome _without competitive innovation - complacency. Ableton are the best example I can think of OTTOMH, being 5-7 years behind stuff that's just standard in a DAW now... Frankly Kontakt is a bit behind the times as well...



no doubt uvi’s lack of orchestral libraries is part of why it’s less popular here. Still in curious to see what happens after I convert a good exs24/soundfont or kontakt library to falcon. I think it could be a knockout replacement.


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## d.healey (Oct 26, 2020)

Falcon is also proprietary.


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## chocobitz825 (Oct 26, 2020)

d.healey said:


> Falcon is also proprietary.


I have no major problem with proprietary. At best it ends up like falcon...at worst it ends up like PLAY


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## Ivan M. (Oct 26, 2020)

Stuff always gets replaced. Given how ubiquitous kontakt is, I believe it won't go away soon, but rather will be pushed out, along with all the big sample libraries and other samplers, by improved physical modeling plugins.


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## d.healey (Oct 26, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> I have no major problem with proprietary.


I'm just going by the title of the thread.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Oct 26, 2020)

Ivan M. said:


> Given how ubiquitous kontakt is, I believe it won't go away soon, but rather will be pushed out, along with all the big sample libraries and other samplers, by improved physical modeling plugins.


That's actually where _I_ (like to) see innovation and the future, not just another sample player. But that takes time


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## lpuser (Nov 4, 2020)

novaburst said:


> I would rather be in a world where there is more and more innovation yes it can be a road of bugs and crashes, but does that mean all the development of new players should stop.



Fair enough. My point however is: I am buying a "library" for the sounds that I want to use and NOT to learn a new player. Also, innovation can be a very bad thing too, because in case you forgot: There are numerous devs over the years who have gone out of business, leaving once paying customers with absolutely nothing. I have hard disks full of plugins and libraries I once bought and which were simply abandoned. Most of them cannot even be reactivated on older Macs, because there is no license server anywhere. This is why I prefer to buy sounds and rely on a millions-of-installations-out-there-player for playback much more than a proprietary one ...

Probably most of these players only exist, because the companies selling sample libraries want to be in better control and (like we have already seen) tend to integrate their online business into the player engines. While it might be convenient to sometimes just click a button and buy/download a library, I feel like I am composing with a webshop which can incidentially play my libraries.


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## Beermaster (Nov 5, 2020)

Got to say it as I’ve experienced it and seen how the land lies ver the last two decades 

There are two categories that sample library companies and front end sample player developers fall into:

1. Those that were primarily sample library developers who became very successful and expanded, wanting to make more money from their sales and not wanting to give NI their fees For ‘Library’ tab use and security . . so wander off into the wilds to develop their own front end . . usually with disastrous consequences . .. poor cross platform consistency, poor upgrades and OS compatibility . . consistency and customer care / support ( PLAY, SINE?, Spitfire front end ? etc )

2. Those that started off wanting to develop and continue to backup and refine front end products as a main cause of business. . .. and also happen to make the worlds best libraries too. .. VSL, Spectrasonics. (Engine. . . . Which is spectrasonics Front end )

Here’s the rub: To maintain and keep a front end platform working on every platform and keep it out to date with OS changes and software updates. . .. customer care. .. .etc. Requires a HUGE undertaking . . NI have hundreds of employees around the world constantly working on Kontakt and solving problems, updating it . . . 

There are all too many that don’t have the backup and the constant overwatch to keep their Platform working a it should be ...


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## novaburst (Nov 5, 2020)

lpuser said:


> There are numerous devs over the years who have gone out of business, leaving once paying customers with absolutely nothing.



I understand what you are saying, but it's fiar to say we don't only move forward because it's safe to do so, we move forward becuase we believe in what we have to offer 

So even if the risk is high your belief in your product should push you forward, if it fails get up and try again.


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## lpuser (Nov 6, 2020)

novaburst said:


> So even if the risk is high your belief in your product should push you forward, if it fails get up and try again.



I see your point and it´s getting a bit philosophical, I guess  but what we have to keep in mind is that many hobbyists spend much more money on software than they will ever get in return. So quite often, when they decide to buy something with their last pennies, they hope (of course) that the plugin/library will keep them happy for a long time. Of course, when libraries are made for a standard system which is in the market already for decades, chances are much higher that this will work for the longest time possible.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 6, 2020)

lpuser said:


> Of course, when libraries are made for a standard system which is in the market already for decades, chances are much higher that this will work for the longest time possible.



As the Gershwins wrote, "It Ain't Necessarily So." One word: Gigastudio.


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## doctoremmet (Nov 6, 2020)

Pedro Camacho said:


> Ok I changed my mind. The new library from @Spitfire Team - Abbey Road One - is absolutely perfect.
> Works great and the player seems very stable now! I highly recommend this library.


Ok.... didn’t take much then. So now ALL other proprietary romplers are allowed again as well? Or is it Kontakt AND Spitfire Player now? Asking for a friend.


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## novaburst (Nov 6, 2020)

I think for the most part esp on OTools you can opt for the kontakt version, nevertheless Sine is a killer player hands down, 

Also Spitfire you can opt for the kontakt version hearing some great things about the new player too VSL again you can go for the VI player but many are over the moon about the new Synchron player, 

So still you do have a choice between players if need be how beit the newer library would only be created for the newest player and not kontakt or in VSL terms only for the new S player 

I think today you don't really need to be left hanging. 

Also developer seem to be nailing it with solid update being drafted out very fast fixing many issues on any new player, I don't think it's as bad as people make it out to be


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## doctoremmet (Nov 6, 2020)

novaburst said:


> Also Spitfire you can opt for the kontakt version


No you can’t.


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## novaburst (Nov 6, 2020)

lpuser said:


> I see your point and it´s getting a bit philosophical, I guess  but what we have to keep in mind is that many hobbyists spend much more money on software than they will ever get in return. So quite often, when they decide to buy something with their last pennies, they hope (of course) that the plugin/library will keep them happy for a long time. Of course, when libraries are made for a standard system which is in the market already for decades, chances are much higher that this will work for the longest time possible.


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## Beans (Nov 6, 2020)

@novaburst I don't know how much of the "you can opt for the x-version" you mention above is true.

Can you please provide examples of each that you're thinking about?


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## doctoremmet (Nov 6, 2020)

Beans said:


> @novaburst I don't know how much of the "you can opt for the x-version" you mention above is true.
> 
> Can you please provide examples of each that you're thinking about?


The only thing that is true, is that Spitfire and VSL indeed have products for two different players. In SF’s case these would be Kontakt for let’s call it their legacy products, and their own player (which is pretty good imho). In VSL’s case they have two proprietary players of their own.

However, Spitfire’s latest and current releases are only for their own player. Same applies to VSL. Basically there is no choice then, with the possible exception of certain Synchron-ized libraries which are literally ported over from the older VSL player (albeit modernized, cleaned-up etc.).

So: Spitfire -> not one library doubles as both Kontakt and SF player library
VSL -> certain older samples have been ported over to Synchron player, but new releases are not available for the older player platform.


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## novaburst (Nov 6, 2020)

Hmm so VSL have a big line of synchronised version of the VI library's, but you can still opt to just go for the VI, 

O T new player is still quite new but you will find some of its library's from the kontakt version are now on the new player but from assumption you can still get the kontakt version, 

Spitfire I think I jumped the gun on this one as I don't own a single Spitfire library and did not know all the new stuff has been created for the new player only, 

Anyway my eyes are on the HZ strings


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## Beans (Nov 6, 2020)

novaburst said:


> Hmm so VSL have a big line of synchronised version of the VI library's, but you can still opt to just go for the VI,



The difference in these is that they offer different instruments, techniques, and scripting. VI Woodwinds I and II, for example, have an upgrade path to Synchron-ized Woodwinds, but they're definitely "revised" for the -ized version and not simply a player choice.


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## doctoremmet (Nov 6, 2020)

Beans said:


> The difference in these is that they offer different instruments, techniques, and scripting. VI Woodwinds I and II, for example, have an upgrade path to Synchron-ized Woodwinds, but they're definitely "revised" for the -ized version and not simply a player choice.


True. So there is not really a choice for the player. There is library A in player A, and in the case of Synchron-ized ones a somewhat related library B in player B.

For OT that’s another story.


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## d.healey (Nov 6, 2020)

Pedro Camacho said:


> SF Player for smaller libraries seems like a waste of a "new instrument" track.


Use a bus (or whatever it's called in your DAW).


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## doctoremmet (Nov 6, 2020)

Pedro Camacho said:


> Here is my personal feel right now. Players are getting stable now (no crashes, loading without issues) (OT and SF players, since Vienna is stable for a long time).
> Kontakt works very well for any kind of libraries, both giant and small and with the bonus of allowing you to edit some stuff in some cases, which can make difference (at least for me it does).
> SF Player for smaller libraries seems like a waste of a "new instrument" track. You can end up with dozens... since you can't use one instance for many instruments. I like it, however, how it has a very responsive UI custom made for the larger libraries and this can be a plus. Still you can't edit anything, you are stuck with SF editing. I personally like to edit.
> 
> ...


I was just having a bit of fun pal. The original title of the thread and your current edited one are just funny - sorry. As stated before I’m all for proprietary players, the more the merrier. Cheers,


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## Ashermusic (Nov 6, 2020)

Pedro Camacho said:


> One thing Kontakt does very well is to have libraries unloaded and just load the instruments, on the fly, as they are played, saving huge tons of RAM, this is quite valuable for large libraries.
> 
> Hope this helps?



Logic does that with ALL software instruments, if you want it to.


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## novaburst (Nov 6, 2020)

I think you will find Synchron player very solid so I think there is not an issue just going for the new library for the Synchron player

I also feel the same about Sine 

Can't speak for Spitfire, but a nice sale on the HZ strings then I can give it a run down

But alla in all these new players are very well made I don't think it's a bad investment


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## Spectator (Nov 6, 2020)

8 bit version available?


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## Paul Cardon (Nov 6, 2020)

Pedro Camacho said:


> EDIT after Abbey Road One release.
> 
> Ok I changed my mind. The new library from @Spitfire Team - Abbey Road One - is absolutely perfect.
> Works great and the player seems very stable now! I highly recommend this library.
> ...


If you've got a DAW with a good resource monitor that shows individual plugin usage, you'll find that the Spitfire Player at idle is a lot lighter than Kontakt, so you should feel a lot more comfortable opening up a bunch of Spitfire Player instances of the plugin without taxing your system as much as a bunch of Kontakt instances. They've definitely streamlined resource usage over Kontakt.


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## Crowe (Nov 6, 2020)

Wait. A single usable product was enough to change your mind about the entire concept of proprietary romplers?


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## Beans (Nov 6, 2020)

Shiirai said:


> Wait. A single usable product was enough to change your mind about the entire concept of proprietary romplers?



I mean, it's ABBEY ROAD STUDIO ONE. How could it not have? Am I right?


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## Crowe (Nov 6, 2020)

Beans said:


> I mean, it's ABBEY ROAD STUDIO ONE. How could it not have? Am I right?



These intermittent headaches could very well be a constant flood of aneurisms.

It seems to be the season.


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## JonS (Nov 6, 2020)

Pedro Camacho said:


> EDIT after Abbey Road One release.
> 
> Ok I changed my mind. The new library from @Spitfire Team - Abbey Road One - is absolutely perfect.
> Works great and the player seems very stable now! I highly recommend this library.
> ...


In the three weeks since your dramatic original post nothing basically changed in this industry yet you easily bent over like a saloon wench for a two-bits tip. How is any developer supposed to take anything you say now seriously when your firm in stone never yielding original opinion was as firm as a jelly donut center?


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## sinkd (Nov 9, 2020)

Nothing like the zeal of the convert.


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## JonS (Nov 9, 2020)

Humility is best served through silence.


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## novaburst (Nov 9, 2020)

Pedro Camacho said:


> nice library, Phoenix Orchestra by @OrchestralTools . It also sounds great but there are some instruments I feel I could improve the programming for my own uses, yet I can't. I am stuck until the developer decides to tweak the samples for realism, or I



I think for the most part your DAW can almost do every thing Kontakt can do or you can even use 3rd party apps


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## romplin (Nov 29, 2020)

Has anyone reinstalled the SF player with a library? How is deactivation and re-activation handled? With Kontakt it's always easy. I tempted to buy BBCSO core in the sale, but I had some cases were I had to reactivate Windows from an update and I'm afraid of this situation, eventually losing a library due to this.

I don't find anything about that at SF page. They just say you can install it on two computers.


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