# Live orchestral arrangements



## robteehan (Mar 1, 2010)

This is not really a virtual-instrument question but I'm sure some of you have experience to help me out with this question.

I may have a gig doing some live orchestral arrangements for an established pop singer. Probably 3 or 4 songs that could in theory be dropped into a symphony orchestra pop concert.

What would you charge for this? I've done concert work before and try to aim for the Canadian League of Composers fees (here: http://www.clc-lcc.ca/commissioning-rates.php), but it seems like an arrangement is different from a completely original composition and would be priced somewhere lower...but where? Any insight?


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## robteehan (Mar 2, 2010)

Ah, good idea JJP. I am an AFM member for my performing but I didn't realize it covered arranging as well. I will contact my local for info.


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## JJP (Mar 2, 2010)

Many people don't realize that AFM covers performers, music preparation (copying, orchestration, arranging, librarians, proofreaders), and also contractors.

o-[][]-o


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## Dave Connor (Mar 2, 2010)

"Arrangements" do not have specific union scale fees. Orchestration of course does as mentioned above. You can charge what ever you can get. Some established guys will get $12,000 or more to do a string arrangement on a Pop tune. Some guys get $500 give or take for an independent label or friends demo or even a major label.

Generally you have to know what you would like to get vrs., what they can actually pay. If it will be a great calling card or credit that could lead to more work then don't play hardball. Try not to go below a certain minimum though.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Mar 2, 2010)

There are cases where you can actually get a writer's share and/or an upfront fee. Especially in the pop industry.

However, it usually is when you've had significant impact on the writing of the song itself.

Example: For Dare to Dream, I wrote the orchestration before one lyric was written, so my orchestration had an impact of the overall melody of the song itself. Most pop tracks are written this way.

Even if you've taken a simple vocal and guitar track, and added an amazing orchestral work to it. That in itself, is part of producing, therefore giving you a write for a cut.

It's when you do partial orchestration where that doesn't always apply. Such as adding strings to a rock band.

And like every other project, it just depends on the conditions and what's being done with it.


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## robteehan (Mar 2, 2010)

In this particular case, my understanding is the singer has songs that are already being performed, maybe have already been recorded, with her live band. what i'm doing is creating an arrangement (orchestration?) so that she can perform them live with a symphony orchestra. recording the orchestral versions is not yet on the table. but either way i don't think this would be eligible for a writer's share, because the songs already exist, right?

anyway - i think i'm a bit muddy on the difference between 'arrangement' and 'orchestration'. am i correct in assuming this: if nothing at all changes in the form of the songs, and i'm just adding in strings etc., that's orchestration. if the song gets re-jigged (maybe some tempo changes, instrumental interludes, maybe changing the instrumentation of the live band that plays with the orch., etc.) that's an arrangement. right? :?


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## Dave Connor (Mar 2, 2010)

The reason the fees are so healthy for the big pros is that they do not participate in the writers royalty . It is extremely rare for an arranger to get writers credit on an existent composition unless he indeed was there from the outset and in fact co-writing.


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## José Herring (Mar 2, 2010)

Dave Connor @ Tue Mar 02 said:


> "Arrangements" do not have specific union scale fees. Orchestration of course does as mentioned above. You can charge what ever you can get. Some established guys will get $12,000 or more to do a string arrangement on a Pop tune. Some guys get $500 give or take for an independent label or friends demo or even a major label.
> 
> Generally you have to know what you would like to get vrs., what they can actually pay. If it will be a great calling card or credit that could lead to more work then don't play hardball. Try not to go below a certain minimum though.



This has been my experience.

It all depends on the situation. First arranging gigs I got $30,000 package deal. Next I got $7000 for a package. After that I stopped doing the package deals and started charging per song. $1500 to $2000 was what I could get. But I got them in bundles. Like 12 songs for $1500/song. If people only wanted 1 song then I'd charge $2000. 

I stopped doing arranging about 5 years ago but I doubt much has changed. You kind of just look at who's doing the producing. If i'ts a known guy with a good deal then charge a lot. If it's a kid trying to "make it" in the biz using his fathers credit card to fund his first album. Have mercy.

Jose


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