# Musicians not helping musicians and the promotion of hierarchy



## Niah (Feb 1, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Feb 01 said:


> I frequently add cues and my most recent ones feature lots of HS and HB mixed in with other stuff. You are free to go and listen and if you think they sound lousy, you are then free to disregard any opinion that I offer and even recommend that others do so as well.



This is coming from the EW solo violin thread in the sampletalk but I am posting my response here because it has nothing to do with the EW and is mostly off-topic.

So I think by now most of us are very familiar with this position and I just wanted to share some thoughts about this. It's not like we are hearing it for the first time and it's just one of the many "philosophies" that comprise the "code of conduct" of how we should all behave here according to some folks (EW Lurker being the most vocal).

Before I came to this forum and in the early years I had a bunch of preconceived ideas and one of them was not too far from what EW lurker has often posted over the years. Meaning, I believed that years of experience with orchestras, live musicians, years in the business, credits, classical training, etc, would automatically translate into better use of music technology and superior quality in mockups and music production. And these were the people I should learn from and value their opinions more than the rest. It was something that was simply logical and it made sense at the time.

Personally experience of course turned things a little upside down for me. I would find myself in situations here and on other forums where members that had 20 years of experience with working with live musicians were absolutely floored by some new product and saying that was so close to the real thing. Furthermore I saw postings of folks that played said instrument in "real life" saying the same thing. Because I didn't met their credentials my unimpressed opinion was often disregarded or simply seen as bashing or uncvil.

My position began to shift gradually when I also realized that I was learning about music technology from members here that came from all walks of life so to speak, hobbyists, amateurs, professionals, young, old...etc It didn't matter after all most of us were getting the new toys at the same time and I could easily learn a trick or two that some kid here discovered and was kind enough to share it us. This is what I call "musicians helping musicians" it is something that unfortunately I don't see as often and it makes me worry about the future of this community. This place needs to keep having an invinting atmosphere where everyone regardless of their musical or professional background doesn't feel intimidated to participate. A place where your opinions are valued for what they are and not for who you are or have accomplished in the past. Over the course of time I have discovered that everything is subjective and that often times I find very valuable opinions coming from members whose work I don't find it that impressive and vice-versa. I fail to see any correlation (according to my personal experience) what so ever during my time here and elsewhere of what the poster is speaking about. I wouldn't take issue with it if the insistance wasn't so great and so far what I have observed is that it only fuels personal conflict between members. So this advice in my opinion is an ill-advice that can only affect us all in a very damaging way.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 1, 2012)

Tempest in a teapot, I think. I've always found people here very willing to help whenever I've had questions.

That particular thread is representative only of what seems to happen whenever Nick P posts something. I honestly don't understand why, but for some reason lots of penises get taken out whenever he does.

And then there's Jay, who turns into a werewolf whenever he sits in front of a computer monitor.


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Feb 1, 2012)

In all honesty its the ones who have been here the longest who think they own each and every thread. (But this is typical in most forums) The majority of these veterans are actually great people and are kind and helpful, but there are the bad apples that ruin it for everyone. Its these people who belong on Gearslutz.com(don't even try to post something there or you will get eaten alive) I've been there awhile so its not so bad for me anymore, but I would never open a new account there.



Then you have the early twenty somethings, who feel they need to pretend to be experienced because they are insecure. They lash out when they should keep quiet and just read, or give good advice in a kind way.


In fact you'll find the harshest ones are the ones who have not made a dime in this industry. 

My advice to all the Veterans of VI Control...this forum is not yours because you post here everyday. This forum is made possible by Frederick Russ who's kindness I have recognized to be the source for this forums success. He is a gentlemen, and this forum is full of gentlemen and gentlewomen as well. 

Thanks for the great post Niah. I don't know about Eastwest Lurker but there are others who I won't name who treat this forum like a hierarchy as you say, and when I sense that I tend to be short with them because I don't care for them much. 

Overall I love this forum to death and have met some great people, so if you haven't met me...lets meet! o-[][]-o We're all here because we love music more than any other thing...besides our wifes' of course  (had to say that last one because she was looking over my shoulder)


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## gsilbers (Feb 1, 2012)

in my opionion.... duh

i think many fall in the marketing lure of companies no matter if they work for it or not. 

ask any proffesional audio engineer about waves or mcdsp and its pure love. 

ask any audio engineer about wavarts and no love. 

compare both products blind fold side by side and 1 in 10 will ever notice a difference. 

thats why for example i made a shoot out with reverbs comparing the 480xl and others to the lexicom PCM.. cause i did not hear a thousand dollar difference. i did hear a small difference but no difference when i tweaked the 480xl paramters to match the PCM. 

but stamp a nice GUI on a plugin, endorse some audio heavywieths and you can fool people to think that there is something magical about the coding they all problably got from the same programmers freeware code site and tweaked a few things. 


but then how does anyone know if it works or not. by trusting famous profesisonals who say they use it. 

at the same time, i worked for a big time producer who endorsed an maudio mic and said he used it for a record... and its true.. but he used it for a trombone mic. 
he is not lying ... but also not saying all the truth... yet... he still gets paid. 

for samples, the solo violin might be the best... but yet.. anyone in a pro level would hire a real player.

its a grey area.. and for many of us we are inside a small studio trusting what the web says and in rare cases... trying demos. 
how the hell im gonig to demo LASS for example?

EW did the terapack and i think it was a terrible idea... cause now i know how mundane their sample libraries are. not bad,... not good either. 
HS is one of the better ones along with silk... any of the others ones you can get better at extonehammer and other companies. 

so i distrust any comment but still take into consideration.


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## JohnG (Feb 1, 2012)

Like Mr. Batzdorf, I've gotten tons of questions answered here that couldn't have been answered most places, and people are generally courteous even when I ask something dumb. So I don't perceive a generally negative tone here.

Naturally, one listens more to some members than others. That said, wisdom shows up here sometimes from "grizzled veterans" and sometimes from young / new people. The ones I like to hear from most are those who are using the products every day, for paid work, as that's where the rubber hits etc. So in that respect, I do rate experience highly. If that's a hierarchy I guess ok.

But it's not always the older folks who have the experience.


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## chimuelo (Feb 1, 2012)

I learned lots here, especially with the VE Pro/Slave examples.
I actually use 2 x instances of Reaper to achieve the same results with LoopBe, so even an idea can be turned into something if people bounce around various wishes/dreams.
I remember being excited to come home everyday and read the Gigastudio Forum at Northern Sounds, then Larry Seyer.
This forum has replaced that for me, and in all honesty I learn more about engineering and practical use of the instruments and work flow.
Plus I get to bash the elites when those threads pop up.
So I have probably been helped more than I help.
I try and make up for it by sharing live experience using said products, bt I am becoming a rare breed, soon to be extinct.... /\~O


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## José Herring (Feb 1, 2012)

I've learned tons on this forum. 

I don't know if there's an hierarchic or not. There are people that know what they're talking about and there are those that don't. I don't think age or time on this forum has anything to do with that. 

The only thing that frustrates me are two kinds of people, the ones that think they know what they're talking about and don't, and the ones that may have a thing or two going for them in an area but are so one sided opinionated about what they know that it overshadows what little benefit they may have.

I try to help where I can. The only thing that irritates me is somebody that obviously doesn't know what he/she is doing, but then goes off to spout an opinion, usually negative, in spite of it.

But, I've tried to help as best I could, those new and old no matter how long they've been here.

best,

José


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## José Herring (Feb 1, 2012)

I'll also add. That VI-Control is the only forum that I spend any time at whatsoever. And, I really mean that. I spend zero time on any other forum. Zero. Nada. 

I think that says something about this place. Maybe not much to others but it says a lot to me about the quality and character of most of the members here.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 1, 2012)

A lot of us know each other here, especially those of us who live in Los Angeles, but that's not the majority of this forum.

In general I have no idea how old, experienced, or grizzly anyone is when they post, and usually I don't care. The only hierarchy I have is that I find myself incredibly interesting.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 1, 2012)

But I honestly don't understand why so many people get all wound up whenever Nick P posts. He's always straightforward, often very funny, and above all the opposite of a corporate BSer. He also knows a little about developing sample libraries, and I would have expected people to be interested to hear what he has to say.


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## whinecellar (Feb 1, 2012)

josejherring @ Wed Feb 01 said:


> VI-Control is the only forum that I spend any time at whatsoever.



+1. Try as I might, I just don't find any other forum interesting anymore. GS used to be but it's become more like a bad accident - you just can't look away. I'll pop in there for sheer mindless entertainment while rendering stems, but otherwise this is the place to be for anything of substance. Good folks, good times - and ideally it's nice to contribute some useful knowledge once in a while. One can dream anyway 

Reminds me of the commercial a few years back with the dude staring at his screen saying "whoa, I think I just reached the end of the internet."

Thanks to Frederick for rolling out the red carpet!


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## Daryl (Feb 2, 2012)

I think one of the big problems here is inherent to the whole of the Internet. Because it's more or less anonymous, people think that it makes us all equal. However, in terms of ability and experience in any particular area, that's certainly not the case.

I think that there are people on this forum who just like to argue, and what makes it worse is when they have little experience in what they're talking about, or none. As an example, if we are discussing Violin playing, chances are that my take is likely to be more accurate than the majority on this forum, because of my background. Similarly if we are talking about clarinet playing, José would probably know more than a lot of us. Logic would dictate that those people who don't really know much about either subject would pin back their ears and try to learn something. Unfortunately that's often not the case.

It may be a generation thing, but I don't really understand why. If someone who is an expert in something chooses to share that expertise with me, I am only to grateful to listen and learn. This seems not to be the attitude of some people though.

There is also the question of how to express opinions. On the Internet there is often a confusion between opinion and fact, but sometimes extreme opinions are expressed as if they were facts. I don't know what the answer is to this, except to say that maybe we should all be clear where the line is.

The other thing we should try to do is be polite, whilst dismissing someone's carefully crafted demo. If we can't think of a calm, polite way to rip it to shreds, I would suggest that we should say nothing, until we can come up with one. :wink: 

D


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## Resoded (Feb 2, 2012)

I considered leaving this forum a while ago due to the amount of arrogance. I've spoken to another person who chose to leave for the same reasons, and I wonder how many more there are. Though I realized, there is one small and loud group where this arrogance comes from, and there are a lot of decent friendly people not posting much, so I chose to stay. 

As I see it, some people on this forums seems to think that their opinion is worth much more than others. Even on subjects where experience really doesn't matter. I have seem some examples where the amount of arrogance has been ridiculous, borderline absurd.

To me, that's really the big problem with this forum. Some people are so arrogant and loud. Looking back at the big derailed topics as of late, it's usually the same people starting the whole thing with arrogant remarks. The general idea seems to be "I'm better than you and your kind because I -am older, -have done this longer than you, -use a better technique than you, -do things according to these rules that everybody that is worth anything should follow", or "My style of music is better than yours because..." etc.

Experience is very valuable and the fact that people share it is extraordinary and what makes this forum great. However, there is a distinct difference between an opinion based on experience and pure arrogance.

It's a logical error to assume that experience in itself is what makes someone right or wrong, or one opinion to be better than the other. Experience does render credibility, but only in cases where the experience has a distinct value. In other cases, the experience holds no value, but the arguments do. Wealth and knowledge in many areas does not mean that the individual per definition is right on all subjects, or that the experienced people have a right to determine who should be allowed to speak or not.

For example, I have played guitar for 9 years now and I have a couple of students that I teach privately. Do I tell them "look, here's how you do this, do as I say, that's wrong. Unless you do exactly as I do it, you're wrong"? No! I usually start out with saying "there are 7 billion ways to play guitar, however, some are more effective than others. I'm going to help you find a technique that is effective for you right now, and that helps achieve your long term goals". This actually means that occasionally, students come up with solutions better than mine, and I give them credit for it! Hell, if the student wants to hold the pick with his damn teeth, I wouldn't say "no, that's not right", I'd say "you can do that, but chugging your head back and forward will not make you able to play precise and fast phrases. It's also going to risk hurting your neck". In the one scenario, I try using my age and experience to force my ways on another claiming it to be the "right" way, or the "real" way. In the other, the one I use, I explain WHY it's ineffective and what happens when they do it. But in the end, if the student wants to do things his way, who am I to stop him? There are examples of famous people doing really quirky and unorthodox things.


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## EastWest Lurker (Feb 2, 2012)

Daryl @ Thu Feb 02 said:


> I think one of the big problems here is inherent to the whole of the Internet. Because it's more or less anonymous, people think that it makes us all equal. However, in terms of ability and experience in any particular area, that's certainly not the case.
> 
> I think that there are people on this forum who just like to argue, and what makes it worse is when they have little experience in what they're talking about, or none. As an example, if we are discussing Violin playing, chances are that my take is likely to be more accurate than the majority on this forum, because of my background. Similarly if we are talking about clarinet playing, José would probably know more than a lot of us. Logic would dictate that those people who don't really know much about either subject would pin back their ears and try to learn something. Unfortunately that's often not the case.
> 
> ...



I think you have said it well, Daryl.


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## Udo (Feb 2, 2012)

Daryl @ Thu Feb 02 said:


> ... There is also the question of how to express opinions. On the Internet there is often a confusion between opinion and fact, but sometimes extreme opinions are expressed as if they were facts. I don't know what the answer is to this, except to say that maybe we should all be clear where the line is.


Unfortunately, that "confusion" of opinions and facts is a general problem, not just on the Internet. It happens too often in news reporting these days (incl. printed media). I'm sure it's deliberate on many occasions, e.g. when proprietors push "an agenda" (like Rupert Murdoch).


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## nikolas (Feb 2, 2012)

I don't think there's a lot of negativity in VI-Control! Heck there are so many worst places to be a part of!

Yes, the Internet IS doing what Daryl describes, but, speaking as a mod here, I think that the community is doing a great job on its own. I think it's very rare that we need (as the vi staff) to take some action (delete posts, etc). The acting of the members most usually is taken care from other members... 

A few members that I know off (one in particular was here and in SOL forums) create trouble wherever they go. These kind of people cannot be avoided. But these people exist everywhere, so it's no biggy!

And, as Daryl says, I think that it's worth thinking on who's behind the computer screen everytime you cross post someone. I have respect for all members here, but for a few I have the highest level of respect, while the same doesn't apply for some others, sadly...

There is, however, a very specific point I'd like to talk about from the original quote:


> I frequently add cues and my most recent ones feature lots of HS and HB mixed in with other stuff. You are free to go and listen and if you think they sound lousy, you are then free to disregard any opinion that I offer and even *recommend that others do so as well.*


Yes, one is free to do whatever they please... that's a given fact today, especially for the net. 

But I think that in order for someone to 'recommend that others do as well', that someone needs a lot of guts and arrogance! It's already hard enough to sustain a solid opinion for oneselves (how often do people change their mind) and it's a whole other deal to actually go out and start preaching their own opinion. I doubt anyone in here, but very few, have the ability, experience and knowledge to do that!


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## chimuelo (Feb 2, 2012)

I feel much better now.
For a minute there I thought this would turn into the evil 1% thing where the developer would be forced to give us the products as we are entitled to them....
Now that I think about it, that ain't such a bad idea.
We could coordinate an Occupy EW/Soundonline, then go to Vienna and demand our fair share.
Where is Orange Tree located....?
I want to go there as they have really great stuff...


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Feb 2, 2012)

Daryl @ Thu Feb 02 said:


> I think one of the big problems here is inherent to the whole of the Internet. Because it's more or less anonymous, people think that it makes us all equal. However, in terms of ability and experience in any particular area, that's certainly not the case.
> 
> I think that there are people on this forum who just like to argue, and what makes it worse is when they have little experience in what they're talking about, or none. As an example, if we are discussing Violin playing, chances are that my take is likely to be more accurate than the majority on this forum, because of my background. Similarly if we are talking about clarinet playing, José would probably know more than a lot of us. Logic would dictate that those people who don't really know much about either subject would pin back their ears and try to learn something. Unfortunately that's often not the case.
> 
> ...



This is the post of the year. Well said, and very true. These kids get on who haven't made a dime with music and pretend they are 35+ with a boat load of experience and force their option on everyone as if their option has any weight.
Personally I am right between successful and "noob". So my option honestly has only 1/2 karat of weight  I'm 31 and am blessed to make my living off of composing. But am I Thomas Bergerson? No. 
Maybe we should all post our resumes here  That would solve the problem.

Its basically like a group of experienced composers, orchestrators, engineers and technicians setting up for an scoring session, and then having a group of some early twenty something kids coming in and telling the more experienced group where they think everything should go.


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## choc0thrax (Feb 2, 2012)

nikolas @ Thu Feb 02 said:


> I don't think there's a lot of negativity in VI-Control! Heck there are so many worst places to be a part of!



This place is squeaky clean compared to almost everything else. I've got about a thousand old posts on an industrial music forum where everyone was really cold and bitter. One of the main contributors was obsessed with body suspension. etc.


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## Ed (Feb 2, 2012)

choc0thrax @ Thu Feb 02 said:


> nikolas @ Thu Feb 02 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think there's a lot of negativity in VI-Control! Heck there are so many worst places to be a part of!
> ...



GET LOST DOUCHBAG YOU SUCK WHATS A NAME LIKE CHOCOTRHAX ANYWAY HUH? I BET YOU SUCK ON CHOCOTHRAX EVERY NIGHT HAHAHAH. YO MAMA>

EDIT: :wink:


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## Ian Dorsch (Feb 2, 2012)

Jeffrey Peterson @ Thu Feb 02 said:


> Its basically like a group of experienced composers, orchestrators, engineers and technicians setting up for an scoring session, and then having a group of some early twenty something kids coming in and telling the more experienced group where they think everything should go.



I've seen valuable contributions here from all sorts of posters, both younger and older. I would agree that there is a positive correlation between age/experience of the poster and the quality of contribution, but there also seems to be an even distribution of useless, confrontational nonsense both from both younger forum members and older members who are prepared to take anything that doesn't reinforce their opinions as an outrageous challenge to their authority and expertise.


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## lee (Feb 2, 2012)

I just pretend I have an ignore-button. Ta da! Problem solved.

/\~O


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## Frederick Russ (Feb 2, 2012)

Hey Ed - people who don't know you, the history between you and Choc0 or simply unaware that you're actually joking might think you're being serious. Your post was reported - just saying. - not everybody has the inside scoop of knowing nuances you would only pick up after being here for a long while.


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## Ed (Feb 2, 2012)

Frederick Russ @ Thu Feb 02 said:


> Hey Ed - people who don't know you, the history between you and Choc0 or simply unaware that you're actually joking might think you're being serious. Your post was reported - just saying. - not everybody has the inside scoop of knowing nuances you would only pick up after being here for a long while.



 I knew I should have put a smiley face


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## Daryl (Feb 2, 2012)

Ian Dorsch @ Thu Feb 02 said:


> Jeffrey Peterson @ Thu Feb 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Its basically like a group of experienced composers, orchestrators, engineers and technicians setting up for an scoring session, and then having a group of some early twenty something kids coming in and telling the more experienced group where they think everything should go.
> ...


I think that the age thing is actually just a byproduct. The really important thing is experience. It just so happens that it's very difficult to get experience until you have the advantage of age. Not impossible; just difficult.

Therefore I don't think that people should be listened to just because they are old. It should be because they have the requisite experience to give their opinions weight.

One other point; it's not enough to say "I have 20 years experience, so I must know what I'm talking about". It could be that it is not 20 years experience. It may be that it is 1 year, experienced 20 times. Unless something has been learned during those 20 years, the experience gained may be no more useful than that of a beginner.

D


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## choc0thrax (Feb 2, 2012)

I would like to thank the anonymous angel who reported Ed. Perhaps I can finally be free of his tyranny and cast off the shackles of his oppression.

Now for the first time ever I feel I have the tools to realize my dream of opening my own jazz danceworks studio.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 2, 2012)

These kids today. They're so entitled.


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## Dan Mott (Feb 2, 2012)

Jeffrey Peterson @ Fri Feb 03 said:


> Daryl @ Thu Feb 02 said:
> 
> 
> > I think one of the big problems here is inherent to the whole of the Internet. Because it's more or less anonymous, people think that it makes us all equal. However, in terms of ability and experience in any particular area, that's certainly not the case.
> ...




:roll: 

Ok Jeffrey. I'm very sorry, I had no idea you were 31. From now on, I'm going to trust everything you say because you must have a load of experience considering your age. Oh.. and did I mention making money off music, that must make your opinion even more worth while.


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## choc0thrax (Feb 3, 2012)

I have to say I've always felt resumes were completely meaningless. I remember there used to be a poster on NS and here for a while who would write longggg posts filled with info. He seemed to really know a lot. He had a lot of experience and a long resume. Only problem was his music was undeniably... questionable. There was a severe disconnect between his experience/knowledge and his product. And even though my music is lousy and was just as lousy back then I knew I could still do a better job than that dude. And I had no resume and barely knew what turning any number of knobs did. Should I take advice from that veteran? I dunno, but I certainly didn't want to.

Yet at the same time I'd eagerly intake anything said by Thomas, Maarten, Tob, Colin O'malley, etc. (there's a lot more). I'd also do the exact opposite of anything Simon Ravn would say but that's a different story.

Over the years I've observed the often inverse correlation with one's need to rely on resume and their talent.

At the end of the day, for the most part you want to base who you listen to on their music. Not how many years they've been farting around producing music of questionable quality, while getting some gigs here and there. Of course there are exceptions but I'm just saying that to cover my ass and stuff.


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## Resoded (Feb 3, 2012)

Dan-Jay @ 3rd February 2012 said:


> Jeffrey Peterson @ Fri Feb 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Daryl @ Thu Feb 02 said:
> ...



No no no Dan-Jay! Think about it, Jeffrey is only 31, 10 years older than you. Nick Batzdorf is 55, which is 24 years older than Jeffrey! Oh my! Nick is obviously a genius compared to kids like Jeffrey.

I agree with Jeffrey. Anyone younger than 55 should just sit back and keep their mouth shut, unless they have _at least_ 32 years of experience in the business and was born on a Timpani during a Wagner concert (one of Wagner's lesser known pieces "Baby-Boom Blutigen Pauken"). How would we otherwise separate the noobs from the pros? By listening? Pfft... child's play. Real composers do not listen. Just look at Beethoven.

But oh wait. How dare I have an opinion! My age and experience is insufficient! I must punish myself!


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## Dan Mott (Feb 3, 2012)

*"No no no Dan-Jay! Think about it, Jeffrey is only 31, 10 years older than you. Nick Batzdorf is 55, which is 24 years older than Jeffrey! Oh my! Nick is obviously a genius compared to kids like Jeffrey. 

I agree with Jeffrey. Anyone younger than 55 should just sit back and keep their mouth shut, unless they have at least 32 years of experience in the business and was born on a Timpani during a Wagner concert (one of Wagner's lesser known pieces "Baby-Boom Blutigen Pauken"). How would we otherwise separate the noobs from the pros? By listening? Pfft... child's play. Real composers do not listen. Just look at Beethoven. 

But oh wait. How dare I have an opinion! My age and experience is insufficient! I must punish myself!"*

Exactly. Very well thought out!


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## George Caplan (Feb 3, 2012)

Resoded @ Fri Feb 03 said:


> I must punish myself!




id be interested to know as to how youd do that.


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## EastWest Lurker (Feb 3, 2012)

Once again, I am not saying the more experienced guy will always be right; I am saying that the likelihood of his being right is far greater so a less experienced person is wise to presume that he has something to learn from him UNLESS he has listened to his music and not been impressed.

Believe it or not when you got to school, your teacher generally knows more than you do


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## Dan Mott (Feb 3, 2012)

Jay

I disagree with you. I think it's totally wrong to just all the sudden click on someone's music page, listen to their music and if your subjective opinion thinks it's shit, then that means their opinion doesn't matter any more. WRONG.

I know some composers in Australia that have way more experience than me and I don't really like their music, but I have still learned a shit load of stuff from them. I do not just dismiss their beliefs. "Your music isn't impressive, I don't need to listen to you".

I'm willing to learn from anyone, even if one has a year of experience, vs 10 years.


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## re-peat (Feb 3, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Feb 03 said:


> Believe it or not when you got to school, your teacher generally knows more than you do.


Funny you should say that. I was in constant trouble (quite serious) during high-school, and later on also decided to quit Arts Academy, precisely because the opposite seemed glaringly obvious to me, and in all too many of my teachers unfortunately. Hate school. Still do. (Even hate to have to send my kids to school, as a matter of fact.)
Nothing makes me more furious than institutionalized idiocy and the unavoidable nivellation of any system in order to accommodate for the ‘common’, at the expense of those who, for whatever reason, don’t fit that target group. Hate having to comform to structures which, by their very nature, leave no room for 'the individual' but are only able to attend to ‘the group’. The belittleing, patronizing attitude one has to endure from well-dressed, upstanding individuals, who have the necessary resumé, the required diplomas and all the so-called experience, yes, but who otherwise lack just about everything to earn even the tiniest slice of my respect. Horror.

Now, this would be entirely off-topic of course, if only I didn’t experience similar problems — still, and every bit as strongly-felt as 20 years ago — with any form of system- or community-enforced codes of conduct, such as the ones which are in place to keep V.I. running smoothly (as has been made very clear to me on already more than one occasion). While I do understand the desireability and even the necessity of these codes completely (and hope to be increasingly adept at abiding by them), they often rub me up the wrong way. There's something about 'group behaviour' and its peculiar dynamics, which I feel extremely uneasy with.

_


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## Tanuj Tiku (Feb 3, 2012)

This forum is largely very awesome!

I have learnt a lot here and most people are extremely helpful and polite. 

Sometimes, I do think people take things too seriously. I dont feel there is anything wrong with this forum and neither am I concerned (at this moment) of the future of this forum.

Its run and moderated by good people who are very reasonable. 

I have had so many Private messages replied to and lots of help offered. I read stuff on VI-control almost everyday since a few years and its great!

I do however, disregard useless information from time to time but there are SO many great people here to learn from.

Hopefully, I contribute in some small way every now and then.


Best,

Tanuj.


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## EastWest Lurker (Feb 3, 2012)

Dan-Jay @ Fri Feb 03 said:


> Jay
> 
> I disagree with you. I think it's totally wrong to just all the sudden click on someone's music page, listen to their music and if your subjective opinion thinks it's shit, then that means their opinion doesn't matter any more. WRONG.
> 
> ...



If I go to someone's website and I hear music that I not only think sounds bad but is IMO poorly composed and poorly constructed as well, that person's opinion is not going to matter to me. Sorry.

A year or two ago, Mike Verta wrote some fairly outrageous comments that bugged me, but when I went and listened to his music, it was so well composed and sounded so good, I simply had to sit back and re-think my assumptions. The same is true of several others here I could name.

However, the reverse is also true. When someone writes something that strikes me as wrong or even silly and then I listen to their music and deem it poor, that simply confirms to me that this is a person whose opinions I need not give any mental space to.

The popular idea that "you can learn from everybody" is fallacious IMHO.


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## TheUnfinished (Feb 3, 2012)

I absolutely hear that someone who has many years experience of writing good quality music is more likely to have information that is useful to listen to.

However, when matters are more subjective than objective then experience and ability do actually have less of an impact upon what is being said.

It's a minefield though. I learnt some really useful production theories when I was starting out, that really worked for me, that came from a guy whose music I really didn't like, both from a sonic and technical point of view.

Ultimately for me, if an idea/argument is sound and worth listening to, it doesn't need to rely on being backed up with a CV or trophy cabinet.

This place has been a tremendously useful resource for me as a composer and I have enjoyed a number of one-on-one conversations I've had with people here. I also enjoy the entertaining off-the-cuff banter from guys like Chocothrax and Ed - even if I don't always agree with them.

The only things that really annoy me are those occasions when people make statements and claim them to be facts when they are patently just their opinion, and when anyone tries to belittle someone else (even if they may have asked for it).


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 3, 2012)

> If I go to someone's website and I hear music that I not only think sounds bad but is IMO poorly composed and poorly constructed as well, that person's opinion is not going to matter to me. Sorry.



Is too! Is too!

What if he or she is a professional developer, audio engineer, system adminstrataurus, or whatever...but a hobbyist musician?

Or for that matter what if he or she is a producer like, say, the late Joel Dorn, who didn't play a note of music but did a pretty good job of producing people like Roberta Flack?

Huh?

HUH?

GOTCHA!


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## JohnG (Feb 3, 2012)

but..but...

I do think it's relevant whether you like someone's music and / or music-related opus (engineers included). That said, one can appreciate the craft in a composition that one dislikes. Depending on the topic, one might zero in on the sound or maybe the composition itself, either of which can be good while the other is not.

And Piet -- sorry you hated school. I loved it, but then I think my tolerance for incompetence, banalities, sloppy expression -- all that -- is quite a bit higher than yours.


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## germancomponist (Feb 3, 2012)

I have learned many things, only while reading threads here, and I have got so many helpful pm`s in the past.

I think this VI-Control forum is the best I ever have visited!


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## chimuelo (Feb 3, 2012)

By all means, don't ever let schooling get in the way of your education.... :mrgreen:


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## re-peat (Feb 3, 2012)

JohnG @ Fri Feb 03 said:


> And Piet -- sorry you hated school. I loved it, but then I think my tolerance for incompetence, banalities, sloppy expression -- all that -- is quite a bit higher than yours.


John,

Perhaps my earlier statements need some nuancing. It’s not that I hate ‘school’ as an idea — on the contrary: education is probably the most important and vital ingredient of any civilization and certainly the only way forward — but I do have a profound problem with what schools _have to be in order to function_. Any system set up for (the well-being of) a community (like schools, or socio-political systems, or religions) can’t really afford to pay too much attention to the individual, otherwise it can’t function the way it’s supposed to function. That’s the paradox of community-oriented systems: by serving the community first, these structures inevitably have to neglect, ignore or even sacrifice the individuals within that community and certainly those that find it difficult to be part of the community. Any orientation towards the things we share (or are presumed to share) inevitably means a certain disregard of, and even disappreciation for the things in which we differ, in other words: our identities.

In the case of schools: schools (and I mean: ‘normal’ schools) are not designed for anyone who, for whatever reason, doesn’t or can't comform with what the school assumes is its target population. Schools are, by nature, aimed at that part of our personalities that can be addressed as a group, as a herd. They have to be, because the 'common' defines, by definition, the largest segment of its attendees, and schools can only operate with that segment in mind. In order for a school to function, it has to cater mainly for the unexceptionnal. Schools need to assume some form of uniformity (intellectually, morally, behaviourly, philosophically) among its group of students, otherwise the system can’t function the way it should. And when absent or lacking (this uniformity, I mean), they need to enforce it. That’s a school’s strength, very much so, I know, but it’s also its most damaging, even destructive weakness.

And because schools are also always an integral part of a society, they have to constantly affirm, advocate and instill whatever's commonly accepted in that same society. Schools need to prepare people to learn to adapt, to conform, to adjust, to blend in. That is extremely beneficial and helpful to the majority of people, sure, but it's also potentially maddening to the individual who, somehow, doesn't quite belong.

_


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 3, 2012)

> I do think it's relevant whether you like someone's music and / or music-related opus (engineers included).



So do I.

And Jay is right that there's no need to give equal credence to some pissant and to John G. My argument is only that the pissant may know something about how to get your toys to work. His opinion of a sample library may not be interesting, however.


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## Niah (Feb 4, 2012)

Daryl @ Thu Feb 02 said:


> I think one of the big problems here is inherent to the whole of the Internet. Because it's more or less anonymous, people think that it makes us all equal. However, in terms of ability and experience in any particular area, that's certainly not the case.
> 
> I think that there are people on this forum who just like to argue, and what makes it worse is when they have little experience in what they're talking about, or none. As an example, if we are discussing Violin playing, chances are that my take is likely to be more accurate than the majority on this forum, because of my background. Similarly if we are talking about clarinet playing, José would probably know more than a lot of us. Logic would dictate that those people who don't really know much about either subject would pin back their ears and try to learn something. Unfortunately that's often not the case.
> 
> ...



First I would like to thank everyone that has contributed to this thread.

Also Daryl since you brought this up I am just going to say somethings about it. I'm not really on board with the idea that the internet is at fault here. I see the www as a tool and it is all about how you use it. I also don't know if it's a generation thing or not but I do think that different generations use the internet differently and perhaps the conflicts that populate the internet are not so different than the conflicts that exist in the "real world". Now regarding anonymity I won't deny that it makes for people to be alot more "candid" if you get my eufemism but I also fail to see it as some people have suggested and still do as the main factor for most of these problems. For the simple fact that I have observed here and elsewhere people that are not anonymous behaving in a very uncivil manner. Experience tells me that everyone is very nice to each other in the begining but once you get more comfortable and be yourself, saying what's really on your mind the inevitable happens and clashes occur. Luckily for us alot here has been resolved amicably. It's funny though that about 20 years ago when I first started to use the web everyone was anonymous and I saw alot less clashes that I see now, perhaps because it was a novelty or it had much less participants. However this anonymity was also an advantage people were judge by what they said and not by their appearance, age, gender, nationality...it's was a brave new world. Now if you are anonymous today you cannot me trusted it seems. 

I only know that you are very knowlegable about instrumentation, orchestration and other matters because I have read your posts over the years. I have no access to your musical background, resume, work, etc, nor do I need to. I judge you for what you have contributed to this community and same goes for Jose. But that doesn't mean that I will always agree with every opinion you guys post particulary when it comes to music technology.
For example I remember Jose coming to the forum in the early years and referring to the sound of the sonic implants strings as "synthy" (opinion that he has since changed I believe). At the time sonic implants strings (now sonivox) was regarded as one of if not the best sounding strings in the market according to this community and nobody went "bananas" over Jose's comment. I can't say that the same attitude exists today. Not very long ago Jose said something about some Yann Tiersen's recording that featured woodwinds, I was in full disagreement and so were most people here but the shocked and dismay was unnecessary. So once again this is all subjective and we have to take any opinion with a grain of salt, because it's personal. I have been involved in custom and private sample libraries and have since sampled stuff just for myself but just because I know how to do it doesn't mean that my opinion on a given library in the market should be more valued than the opinions of others who have never edited, programmed or sampled anything for that matter. 

No one is equal that's for sure, but the internet is certainly the most democratic tool that exists today and that offers equal opportunities to everyone. We all value the opinions of others differently but if we are going to mandate which opinions members here should pay more attention to we are going to enter, as it as been demonstrated many times here, into personal conflict and that's something to be avoided.
Getting back to the quote in my original post, it's something that doesn't make much sense to me and I wouldn't even bother if this didn't pop up time and time again in any thread regardless of the topic. The result is usually the same, the thread gets off-topic, it's no more about a product or music technology but about values and principles and who is civil and uncivil, etc. Where do we draw the line? We don't, the mods do, if not we are nothing but vigilantes. That's the only hierarchy that exists here and that's the only hierarchy that will ever exist. Personally I don't have any problem to discuss these issues as we are here now doing in the off-topic section of the forum, because that's where these issues belong. 
What JohnG has expressed makes more sense to me though and I don't think it's hierarchy seems more like personal preference to me and that's something I think we all do consciously or not. It's easy to forget that this community is pluralistic, members here from all walks of life, ages, background, nationalities, not everyone works in LA, not everyone is a media composer, not everyone has the same musical tastes or goals...the only thing that we have in common is that we use the current wave of music technology to either compose or produce full works. Lets embrace that and celebrate our differences.

The promotion of hierarchy that was talking about has more to do with people mandating that the opinion of member A is more valuable than the opinion of member B because A has some TV work up his sleeve. Does that matter when B doesn't regard TV work has a great achievement? This hierarchy that exists in the industry that you work outside of VI Control does not fly with members from what I have observed. Instead members seem to value the opinion of others members when they consider them hive-minds or judging from what they have contributed to this community.

On another note I personally reject this idea that one must demonstrate his achievements in order to participate in a discussion without getting lectured or preached, or be told to shut up. Even more so because when members have played that "game" and showed their work the response from the people that have challenged these members is usually "I don't comment on other people's work". One must wonder what exactly is their intent here? It certainly doesn't seem to be "educating" the less "illuminated".

Also I would like to point out that everything I post here is my personal subjective opinion and I see other's in the same light. I ran out of patience for folks that perceive opinions expressed here as being statements and try to engage in discussions about semantics.

I owe alot to this forum and the reason I'm making such a big deal out of it is because when I first came here the overall attitude and the spirit of the community was a bit different. My opinions were challenged while remaining on topic, people would present me with technical information to support their views, they were brutally honest about my work and expected that I did the same for them. "All comments are welcome" really meant that. Very rarely members would be outraged by someone's opinion and very rarely I would see comments like "that's harsh", "tough crowd", "these people have no class", etc, appeals to personal conflict that destroy discussions where we all loose because at the end of the day nothing is accomplished and nothing is learned. Let the mods work I say, report the posts you find that transgress the rules of this site.

I am saying all this because I don't like when people leave or consider leaving and I don't like when I direct newcomers to this place and they come back saying "it's a hostile place". 

This is still the best place to be IMO regarding music technology and it is much because certain members that I regard as being instrumental to this place have endured alot and are still here participating, but for how long?

Having said that maybe Nick B is right and I am making a giant storm in a tea pot. 8)


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## EastWest Lurker (Feb 4, 2012)

Niah, you make a good point. When I was in college, I am sure I viewed things through that prism. And now, having been in the LA based pro world since 72, perhaps I have fallen into viewing everything through that prism.

But at the end of the day in any art or craft, as Francis Bacon said in his famous quote, "knowledge is king" and an opinion based solely in "well that's how I feel" just doesn't cut it for me.

However, out of respect for some people's sensitivities and to be mindful that my comments are viewed as speaking for EW, even when they clearly are not, I shall keep my evaluation of the person's worthiness to state an opinion that I think is insulting to another more worthy member or colleague to myself.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 4, 2012)

Niah, I didn't mean to point that comment at you. It was because so many people had their balls in the uproar position over very little in the grand scheme of things.

As to hostility here...maybe I'm insensitive - or maybe I'm the one dishing it out! - but I don't feel it.

One of the things I like about this forum is that it's self-correcting with very little moderation. If someone posts something off balance, several other people will jump on the post and spew reason all over it.


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## José Herring (Feb 4, 2012)

Niah @ Sat Feb 04 said:


> For example I remember Jose coming to the forum in the early years and referring to the sound of the sonic implants strings as "synthy" (opinion that he has since changed I believe). At the time sonic implants strings (now sonivox) was regarded as one of if not the best sounding strings in the market according to this community and nobody went "bananas" over Jose's comment. I can't say that the same attitude exists today. Not very long ago Jose said something about some Yann Tiersen's recording that featured woodwinds, I was in full disagreement and so were most people here but the shocked and dismay was unnecessary.



I still stand by all those judgements  

Products like LASS and HS have put the SISS comment in perspective. I wasn't wrong then. I still hold the same view now. I just learned to live with it. Perhaps I lowered my standards.

As far as Yann Tiersen's winds. If you prefer the sounds of middle school players, then I guess from that perspective maybe they were good. But, the over the top negative Piet response wasn't surprising. I think he doesn't feel alive unless he's tearing people down.

Which I think brings us to the crux of the point you're trying to make. The Yann thread is a perfect example. Instead of just disagreeing with me, Piet went on to make a bunch of wild assumptions about me, trying to degenerate me, my experiences, ect... Tried to rip me apart to fulfill some cruel need he has to knock people down who don't agree with him. I've come to realize that that's the way he communicates, unfortunate really, but it is what it is. So to your point ,at what point to do you take a guy like that seriously? I decided long ago that you don't take him seriously. Why would you? I don't think that's promoting a hierarchy or anything like that. It's promoting a personal preference. Many people find Piet's post inspiring. I find them distracting. So I don't pay attention.

There's one human right that goes unspoken of that is the crucial right of every human being. That is the right to communicate to whom one wishes to communicate with and not to communicate to those who you do not wish to engage with. For some reason people get the idea that if they post on the internet that everybody should pay attention and if they don't get noticed they get all incensed.

Since Jay is the focal point of your OP I will comment on Jay. I think his attitude is perfectly valid with respect to his music. I listened to Jay Asher's music on his website many years ago. My impression was that he was trying to write in a style that perhaps isn't that "hip" any more for sample instruments that don't really support that style of writing. But, I understand his music. He's a line writer He's a melody writer. He's an older guy. Why would he care what some young guy who's only exposure to music is 90's action films, think about his music? It's not like that guy's opinion is going to affect him in any way. So he doesn't post his music. It's gotten better this place, but still pretty narrow minded musically. Yet Jay has done some stuff and continues to be an active composer. So some young guy comes on here, he's done nothing, not even stepped in front of a live string quartet much less a jazz ensemble or orchestra, has no experience in music beyond Symphobia, hasn't made any kind of a name for himself at all, why would we value his opinion?

I guess that's what bothers me. I know a lot of composers, both big and little, and without a doubt I find the guys that have accomplished the most to be more humble, more willing to accept that they have a problem with something and more willing to work it out than composers that don't know anything. Maybe it's an experience thing. When I was in my 20's nobody could tell me anything about music. I assume that I was the greatest. As I got into my 40's that has all changed. I've only made progress in the last 5 years because i started to doubt myself. And yet, I'm still constantly confronting people, not necessarily on this forum, but else where who's attitude doesn't align with their ability. I think its a fault really.

So, one then in his mind starts to form a hierarchy of who's opinion your going to respect more than others. Mine is really simple. I look to those who have had success in an area for guidance and opinions. I've been lucky enough that many who are more successful than me have offered a lot of help over the years. Next I try to help as many as I can that maybe aren't as "experienced" or who haven't done that much but are humble enough to ask for help. I go out of my way to help these people. More so if I think that there's something in their music that is special but they are having a hard time getting it out because of technical limitations or a lack of understanding of some basic music principles. If they guy really has a voice then I try to help him with the technical stuff. I don't even bother with people who think they are so right in their opinions that they won't even consider that there could be another way to do things. I won't even bother. Having met tons of successful composers and having had a few successes myself, I know that that person is either a hobbyist or won't go anywhere, so why bother to help. It's not like anything you say they'll listen to. You're wasting your time trying to help that person.

Time has born my opinions out. I've noticed that the loudest mouthiest people here have made the least progress of anybody. Which is a shame. Because music is something that one can always do better and the only way to really do that is to not knock everybody but to realize that maybe you don't have all the pieces of the puzzle yet. Nobody does.

Just a thought.

best,

Jose


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## re-peat (Feb 5, 2012)

josejherring @ Sat Feb 04 said:


> So I don't pay attention.


You obviously do, and very much so it seems, otherwise you wouldn’t have brought this back up, now would you? 
Still not over it, Jose? _Diddums_, I say.

But you’re right, it was a memorable thread. Just read it again myself and I rather enjoyed it, I must say.

The reason I got a bit annoyed with you in that encounter, Jose, is not because we disagreed (I have no problem with that _at all_), but because you came stampeding in, loudly waving your curriculum and you resumé in the air, and then proceeded by completely ignoring the very specific requests of the opening poster, even mocking his musical preferences. You were simply set on forcing your own preferences onto the OP, rather than trying to understand and respect his, let alone that you ever made any attempt at giving him relevant, helpful advice (which is what the rest of us did).

The OP inquired about a very specific woodwind sound, a sound which, for some reason, you felt you immediately needed to dismiss as amateuristic, inferior, even atrocious. Now, excuse me, but who the hell are you to decide what is or isn’t useful in someone else’s music?

I got annoyed (and will be again tomorrow) by your lack of empathy and your lack of musical character and imagination which makes you instantly dismiss anything that doesn’t conform with how you were taught things are supposed to sound. Trust me, if anyone or anything is _tearing you down_ or _degenerating you_ (your words, not mine), it is precisely that. And not some irritating, self-conceited prick like myself, who's merely observing it.

And if anyone tarnished that thread with misplaced pretentions and ridiculous frustration, Jose, it was you (as Luca very accurately observed as well), because I guess you simply couldn’t stomach the fact that some of us were not all that impressed with what you believe we should be very impressed with: your fluency on a woodwind-instrument (earned _“after years of bloodshed and tears”_ apparently, which, to be honest, is a detail that, if it were me, I wouldn’t be exactly as proud of as you seem to be), a couple of banal diplomas and the pathetic fact that you once shared some air with the late Mr. Rampal.

Anyway, I’m glad you brought this up. Thanks!

_


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## NYC Composer (Feb 5, 2012)

I cannot hope to match the rhetorical style or impressive length of many of the posts in this thread, so let me just make a few points:

1. As an almost complete autodidact, I can say with some certainty that sitting in a classroom is not the only way to gain knowledge. It suits some and is totally unsuitable to others. I think in the next 50 years, the educational models will evolve to suit those who, like me, have too restless a mind (along with a touch of ADD) to be in school-jail. Erudition
gained from matriculation is great. So is teaching yourself what you need to know and reading incessantly.

2. I've learned from people of almost every level here. I could not more vehemently disagree with my friend Jay. We do not see eye to eye on the pompousness of "experience", and I've had plenty. Recently, I got an assignment to write a few dubstep pieces. Suffice it to say I did not learn my little bit of that craft from people my age.

3. There are a thousand ways to express an opinion, and choosing a polite one leads to better social discourse almost every time. Discussion can be lively without anyone taking out their long knives.

4. Having come over from NS, I think this place is awesome. Like, totally. Whatever its flaws, this forum is the best I've known.


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## EastWest Lurker (Feb 5, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun Feb 05 said:


> 2. I've learned from people of almost every level here. I could not more vehemently disagree with my friend Jay. We do not see eye to eye on the pompousness of "experience", and I've had plenty. Recently, I got an assignment to write a few dubstep pieces. Suffice it to say I did not learn my little bit of that craft from people my age.



Two quick points. I don't believe I have ever said you cannot learn anything from professionally-inexperienced people. Certainly there are young people who take my Logic classes who I HAVE learned from when they bring in their works in progress projects that are genres that they know far better than I do.

Also, here. What I HAVE said is that I will factor an inexperienced person's opinion far less than an experienced one's and that for an inexperienced one to _disrespectfully_ repeatedly publicly argue a point with a more experienced one is unwise, since it as far more likely he has a lot to learn from the experienced guy than the experienced guy has from him.


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## EastWest Lurker (Feb 5, 2012)

[quote="josejherring @ Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:39 am"


1. Since Jay is the focal point of your OP I will comment on Jay. I think his attitude is perfectly valid with respect to his music. I listened to Jay Asher's music on his website many years ago. My impression was that he was trying to write in a style that perhaps isn't that "hip" any more for sample instruments that don't really support that style of writing. But, I understand his music. He's a line writer He's a melody writer. He's an older guy. Why would he care what some young guy who's only exposure to music is 90's action films, think about his music? It's not like that guy's opinion is going to affect him in any way. So he doesn't post his music. It's gotten better this place, but still pretty narrow minded musically. Yet Jay has done some stuff and continues to be an active composer. 



2. I look to those who have had success in an area for guidance and opinions. I've been lucky enough that many who are more successful than me have offered a lot of help over the years. Next I try to help as many as I can that maybe aren't as "experienced" or who haven't done that much but are humble enough to ask for help. I go out of my way to help these people. More so if I think that there's something in their music that is special but they are having a hard time getting it out because of technical limitations or a lack of understanding of some basic music principles. If they guy really has a voice then I try to help him with the technical stuff. I don't even bother with people who think they are so right in their opinions that they won't even consider that there could be another way to do things. I won't even bother. Having met tons of successful composers and having had a few successes myself, I know that that person is either a hobbyist or won't go anywhere, so why bother to help. It's not like anything you say they'll listen to. You're wasting your time trying to help that person.

[/quote]

1. Revisit my website and I think it is less true now, although essentially a fair analysis.

2. Pure wisdom and btw, basically the way good composers have proceeded for hundreds of years when there was not technology available that made writing sound as good with less knowledgeable composers than there is now.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 5, 2012)

re-peat @ 5/2/2012 said:


> ... your fluency on a woodwind-instrument (earned _“after years of bloodshed and tears”_ apparently, which, to be honest, is a detail that, if it were me, I wouldn’t be exactly as proud of as you seem to be), a couple of banal diplomas and the pathetic fact that you once shared some air with the late Mr. Rampal.



Dear Piet, 

Just in case you might be short of nasties in the next week or so:

feeble, heartbreaking, lamentable, miserable, poor, useless, worthless, inadequate, wretched, insignificant, shabby, sorry (actually scratch that last one, you'll never use it), lousy, unbearable, disastrous, sad, stinking, horrifying, sickening, etc.


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## re-peat (Feb 5, 2012)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun Feb 05 said:


> feeble, heartbreaking, lamentable, miserable, poor, useless, worthless, inadequate, wretched, insignificant, shabby, sorry (actually scratch that last one, you'll never use it), lousy, unbearable, disastrous, sad, stinking, horrifying, sickening, etc.


Ned, thanks very much! I appreciate it. I believe I've used quite a few of those already though, at one time or another. Not sure about 'heartbreaking' however. Doesn't strike me as a particularly apt word to counter sillyness or stupidity with anyway. And I'm pretty sure I've never used 'stinking' either. Never would, in fact. Sounds rather uncivil to me, no? A bit rude and tactless even. God forbid we start using that kind of foul language around here.
And yes, even 'sorry', though you seem to have missed those occasions. 'Sorry' can be every bit as well-deserved as any of those other words, and when it is, I'll use it.

_


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## Ed (Feb 5, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Feb 03 said:


> If I go to someone's website and I hear music that I not only think sounds bad but is IMO poorly composed and poorly constructed as well, that person's opinion is not going to matter to me. Sorry.



No one is saying you should be able to take everyone's opinion as worth the same, of course not. Everyone does that. My beef with you is you actually tell people they aren't good enough to post an opinion or that they are giving people bad information because they aren't good enough according to you, and do not claim you dont do that because you do. This is what happens in a forum and people have to realise that some peoples opinions are going to be worth more than others and that will change from person to person. You dont get to tell people that they cant have an opinion because you personally don't like their music. Also, you are not good enough or successful enough to be as arrogant and snobbish as you are.


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## Frederick Russ (Feb 5, 2012)

Before this spirals into an epic dual between egos, let's either 1) tone it down or 2) elect to close the thread. 

I'm a bit disappointed because it does seem that the same few people end up effectively neutralizing threads and turn them instead into a mud slinging match that would be better served in a private arena rather than drag the rest of us into it. 

Simply put, we're not doing this again. Seriously. I'm asking you to please settle your disputes off this site.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Feb 5, 2012)

I vote to close this thread.

Once again, I have learnt from so many people here and a lot of times, I focus on the information at hand and really not at the age or experience.

I usually approach this forum for problem solving and I take in any input that I get - quickly analyse it. 

So either I know that a particular idea does not work - or I have already tried it and finally, if it makes sense, I use it and see if it helps.

I think each person will go through the information on this forum and align naturally toward something that is more in tune with the person's tastes. 

Again, there is nothing wrong with Vi-control. I love it. I think its a great place. Sometimes, people do waste time on pointless things at which point, I simply withdraw myself from the thread.

For example, I dont know who re-peat is in the real world. I have heard his music and thought it was excellent. I have read many of his posts and they make a lot of sense to me. So, yes in the future I will value his comments as such but not only because he makes good music or is older. 

I think, a good idea can come from anywhere really. 

But yes, when it is a matter of knowledge or truth seeking time, I would turn here and take some basic pointers and then probably get some books or start my own research. 

Certainly not everyone here always know what they are doing! Including myself...


Best,

Tanuj.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Feb 5, 2012)

Another point, I want to make is this:

So many developers are now directly available here on Vi-control and they almost always respond. That's great!

I have connected with so many people on Facebook through vi-control. I can chat with them, private message them - whatever.

You can always write to the developer directly. You dont even need to rely on forum information sometimes - you can go straight to the source....

People are always posting interviews, sharing knowledge, techniques, there are orchestrators here, composers, tech guys, scripters - its an awesome community!

Of course, every now and then you may find the odd one misbehaving or not really sharing...thats cool...just move on!


Best,

Tanuj.


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 5, 2012)

Ah, you can't vote to close the thread then make 2 substantial posts, Tanuj! Keep it open, and all heed Frederick's words I say.

Aside for the occasional poster who equates brutality with integrity, VI Control rocks. I'm not a school person, and yet I've learned heaps here. Most folks are decent and friendly, I'll take advice from anyone and everyone of any age and experience level if it makes sense and won't if it doesn't - to me. And I'm ALWAYS grateful if someone helps me out with a problem.

And one more vote of thanks to Frederick for keeping this place on the straight and narrow as far as is humanly possible. I too remember Northern Sounds, and every time I do I shudder.


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## Peter Alexander (Feb 5, 2012)

A few thoughts.

* Education*
I was very frustrated in my senior year at Berklee over how certain classes were being taught in a confusing way, notably counterpoint where the guidelines seemed to change every semester with every teacher. One day while at the Brookline Public Library, a question flew into my head: How did the great composers teach themselves? So what started as an individual project for myself, unknown to me then, 15 years later would become Alexander Publishing as I found the tools I was looking for, and revised and republished them.

In this process, I also found how composers over the years adapted technology to enhance their learning, which is something I've done with our titles. 

After getting a lot of this material completed, I then compared it to my academic experience and that of other composers who migrated to Los Angeles about the same time I did. I found in many cases, that even those who came out of named schools had the same opinion I had regarding certain classes, in particular our one semester orchestration class, which according to academia, should have prepared us to compete head to head with Alexander Courage, Herb Spenser, Jack Smalley, Dick Grove, Albert Harris, and a whole host of others. 

What is painfully clear when you go back and read composer biographies is that virtually every single one of the greats became great, not from the classroom, but from mentoring and the passionate desire to learn. And out of these composers came a small group who could also teach in print, and those are the methods that have endured. 

The classroom can only teach facts. Skill is developed outside the classroom through the passionate desire to learn and continuously improve how to express yourself through music. 

*Pros vs. Amateurs*
Here on VI we have a very unique situation with Pros, Semi-Pros, and Amateurs. Here, there are two ties that bind: 

A. We all need the same computer resources to run the software;
B. We are all customers of the software, and customers have opinions across the range of their experience. 

Because of these two points, each person's opinion is relatively equal because they're customers for the program!

But the divide comes with each persons experience with the orchestra. Some of us here have a lot of experience with live exposure (and recordings of course), while others have their primary experience through recordings and soundtracks. 

The other divide is with those of us who have had more compositional studies vs. those who've put time into developing computer and mixing skills as their primary thrust. 

And this is where I think the communication often breaks down. 

Each can, and should, learn from the other. But as with all things, accuracy and respect, not disrespect, is important for community instruction.


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## Lex (Feb 5, 2012)

I love the fact that there are so many different people on VI, all sorts of backgrounds, ego sizes, cultures, musical tastes, skills...This, combined with open mindedness and true democracy that Frederick runs it with, is what makes this place so great, and so different then most music-oriented forums. Once again, thank you Frederick.

As for weather one should listen to some1s work before taking their advice...for me its very simple, because it greatly depends on the topic. If a guy does great mockups I would be very interested to hear what he has to say on making mockups. Now it might happen that I think/feel same guys music is really bad, in which case I will very much ignore what he has to say on composing topics. How many years he has been in the business is very much irrelevant here. 

The idea that "he must know a lot cause has been around for a long time" is silly, especially in our composing world where once you invested years of effort, work and hopes you reach a point where there's no going back really. By default it doesn't mean anything more except that "he" is good at professionally surviving. That's why for me listening to "advice giver"s work is essential, if advice is on any kind of "how does it sound?", "is this good?" topic. If it's not exact the it will be very subjective, so what you think/feel/like will have the whole weight.

alex


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## choc0thrax (Feb 5, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9KHo9z86rA


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## EastWest Lurker (Feb 5, 2012)

Ed @ Sun Feb 05 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Fri Feb 03 said:
> 
> 
> > If I go to someone's website and I hear music that I not only think sounds bad but is IMO poorly composed and poorly constructed as well, that person's opinion is not going to matter to me. Sorry.
> ...


 
Idon't say that Ed. I say they are not good accomplished enough to give their _disrespectful_opinions of more accomplished people and if they are wise, they will opine less and listen more so that they can learn more. I think that is an important distinction.

You are of course entitled to your opinion as to how good I am or am not but the fact that I have made a living for over 40 years writing, performing, producing, writing books and articles about, and teaching music exclusively for a living speaks for itself IMHO. 

But of course you are free to dismiss that if you choose and it matters little to me. I know who and what I am and am not.


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## Lex (Feb 6, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Feb 06 said:


> You are of course entitled to your opinion as to how good I am or am not but the fact that I have made a living for over 40 years writing, performing, producing, writing books and articles about, and teaching music exclusively for a living speaks for itself IMHO.



And yet without any major work accomplished in any of those fields, so what does it speak of, except for your ability to survive? It's not nice to say this, but you are waving your 40 years of working experience while demanding to be treated "special" on this forum on and on again.

Your opinion is as important and as valid as any 15 year old kid's that just came here sir, no more, no less. 

alex


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## NYC Composer (Feb 6, 2012)

I have supported myself for about 38 years exclusively with music work. I've never held another job. I'm proud of that (don't knock survival, Lex, it ain't easy) but I don't feel it makes my opinion any more valid than whatever validity anyone wants to assign it.

Honestly Jay, I wish you'd back off on that subject, but as I know you enough to know that you're indefatigable, I know you never will :wink:


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## Lex (Feb 6, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Mon Feb 06 said:


> I have supported myself for about 38 years exclusively with music work. I've never held another job. I'm proud of that (don't knock survival, Lex, it ain't easy) but I don't feel it makes my opinion any more valid than whatever validity anyone wants to assign it.
> 
> Honestly Jay, I wish you'd back off on that subject, but as I know you enough to know that you're indefatigable, I know you never will :wink:



I don't knock survival, I know it's more then difficult, and is something to be proud of, but it's apples and oranges and you know it. I never saw anyone _disrespectfully_ argue with Jay about surviving professionally.

alex


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## NYC Composer (Feb 6, 2012)

Lex @ Mon Feb 06 said:


> NYC Composer @ Mon Feb 06 said:
> 
> 
> > I have supported myself for about 38 years exclusively with music work. I've never held another job. I'm proud of that (don't knock survival, Lex, it ain't easy) but I don't feel it makes my opinion any more valid than whatever validity anyone wants to assign it.
> ...



Well, not until now.


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## EastWest Lurker (Feb 6, 2012)

Oh good lord, does anyone think this is about me feeling disrespected personally? I am not talking about _me_ but disrespect shown to _others_. Frankly, I don't care if people are disrespectful to me. I am very thick skinned and I believe I have the respect of those whose respect matters to me.

I will make 2 final remarks, leaving myself out of the equation, and then make Larry happy and drop it: When the subject is composing music for film and TV, Brian Tyler's opinion has less intrinsic value than John Williams: mine probably has less than Brian's as he has had more opportunity to do high level work, which is the best way to learn; many here express opinions that have less intrinsic value than guys like Daryl or Dave Connor, for the same reasons.

When the subject is composing music for sample libraries, the opinion of guys like Nick, T.J., the two Mikes, and Colin has more intrinsic value than the opinions of the vast majority here for the same reasons.

What you have accomplished and/or the skills and knowledge you have demonstrated makes your opinion matter more. If you guys want to tell yourself otherwise, go ahead, but you are kidding yourselves. 

OK, good discussion, I'm done.


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## dcoscina (Feb 6, 2012)

Personally, if I have any tech related questions or even want input on a piece, this is a terrific and helpful place. None better IMO. 

I think it's more universal topics or larger music issues that I've become embroiled in. As I get older, and realize my own mediocrity, I don't fee like exerting my opinion so much. If someone thinks a certain way and provides thoughtful and articulate posts, I'm good. Even if they don't, it's not up to me to judge. Every one has their own story and set of variables that led them to this point of time. 

Great forum IMO. Lots of friendly and knowledgeable people helping others.

EDIT- I've noticed in interviews that John Williams is so quiet and humble. I originally thought that was a put on but over the years, he's still the same. I think it's a healthy mindset to have. If someone with his musicality can be so modest, I certainly can strive towards that.


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## Lex (Feb 6, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Feb 06 said:


> Oh good lord, does anyone think this is about me feeling disrespected personally? I am not talking about _me_ but disrespect shown to _others_. Frankly, I don't care if people are disrespectful to me. I am very thick skinned and I believe I have the respect of those whose respect matters to me.
> 
> I will make 2 final remarks, leaving myself out of the equation, and then make Larry happy and drop it: When the subject is composing music for film and TV, Brian Tyler's opinion has less intrinsic value than John Williams: mine probably has less than Brian's as he has had more opportunity to do high level work, which is the best way to learn; many here express opinions that have less intrinsic value than guys like Daryl or Dave Connor, for the same reasons.
> 
> ...



Again, it's never gonna be this black and white because it depends on too many things. If I wanted to seek advice on how to approach an action scene in which I want to heavily use live drums, synths and sampled percussion mixed with orchestra John Williams is probably the last person I would ask. If needed advice on how to get that glitch sub driven Noisia bass, Brian Tyler certainly would be my first choice...and so on and on..    

And this _"..mine probably has less than Brian's as he has had more opportunity to do high level work, which is the best way to learn"_ just shows how arrogant you are.  

Mr. Asher, my deepest and honest respect for being able to make a living as a musician for so long, and I wish you well.  

And yeah...great discussion!   

alex


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## windshore (Feb 6, 2012)

hmmm, This general a discussion of "philosophy" will always risk getting ugly. Hey, many people know to avoid discussing politics or religion even at large family gatherings. - it's nearly impossible to change someone's "belief" with a conversation.

I'll just say that expressing an opinion is not what is being discouraged, but expressing an opinion as a way to shoot someone else down, creates less opportunity to learn, & is not what this forum is about.

I've heard that there is an old Chinese proverb that asks the question: 

Who learns more in the conversation between a Wise Man and a Fool?

...The Wise Man learns more, that is why he is wise. He knows he can gain wisdom from anyone, anywhere...so he listens.


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## Peter Alexander (Feb 6, 2012)

And so it goes...


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## gsilbers (Feb 6, 2012)

well, obsiously readers will pay more attention to the more professional . 

with that said, why would someone like john williams be talking of something of my level. 
if its a general thing like melody then yes i can learn. 

but i will read and pay more attention to folks that recently pass the level i am at. 

like if i am trying to get a better reverb for samples ill read from different composers who i know compose with a similar setup than me and not that engineer that hangs around here that has like 4 bricasti and 3 sytem 6000. and has done nice high end movies. 
even though ill try to learn something from him.. 

ill maybe learning more from someone who has to produce and mix their own projects. 

and mostly is technical. for a musicians forum, there is rarley talk of anything music related. 
def in comparison to tech stuff, samples etc. 

so it can be divided between studio budget/setup with similar sample and DAW setups.

so if i see questions of something i rcently encountered, troubleshooted etc ill try to help out.. but if its something like
what DAW should i use for film music.. 
that would be too intro and my answer would not be too adequate and not the right one for him/her.


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## Daryl (Feb 7, 2012)

Lex @ Mon Feb 06 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Feb 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Oh good lord, does anyone think this is about me feeling disrespected personally? I am not talking about _me_ but disrespect shown to _others_. Frankly, I don't care if people are disrespectful to me. I am very thick skinned and I believe I have the respect of those whose respect matters to me.
> ...


I'm sorry, but i don't see that Jay's statement is any more or less arrogant than yours about John Williams. You are saying that in your opinion JW can teach you nothing about a particular subject, and he is saying that he feels similarly about another composer. No difference in my view. You may not agree. So what. He is entitled to an opinion about his own work, and he ought to have confidence in it. I thought that this whole thread was about people being entitled to an opinion? :wink: 

D


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