# Is the VSL "Silent Stage" an obsolete concept?



## a.leung (Jan 17, 2010)

It has been rumored that recording samples on a silent stage may no longer be necessary due to technological advances in sampling form and sampling playback engines. 

The VSL Silent Stage is located outside of the main part of Vienna itself in a quiet estate where several businesses have their offices and factories. Across the road from the Silent stage is Vienna Acoustics, which make speaker systems.

Quote from vsl.co.at "The walls of the recording hall consist of three layers: an outer shell, an inner shell – both constructed of massive brickwork and each with a foundation of its own - and a third interior shell of gyprock plates. The interior to exterior isolation achieved with this design is more than 90 dB. Environmental noises like wind, birdsongs or women´s shoes which normally appear even in the best studios, not to mention concert halls, at amplification levels of more than 60 dB (e.g. with pianissimo samples) are completely non-existent. In one of our more ambitious tests, even a helicopter hovering overhead remained soundless."

Click on Episode #22 to learn more about the 'Silent Stage'.

http://www.elvenmusic.com/podcast/archive/archive5/archive5.html (http://www.elvenmusic.com/podcast/archi ... hive5.html)


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## Dietz (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Is the VSL "Silent Stage" a failed concept?*



a.leung @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> It has been rumored that recording samples on a silent stage may no longer be necessary due to technological advances in sampling form and sampling playback engines. [...]


:-D ... for a second I thought you were serious. Good one!


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## Drew Buchan (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Is the VSL "Silent Stage" a failed concept?*



a.leung @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> It has been rumored that recording samples on a silent stage may no longer be necessary due to technological advances in sampling form and sampling playback engines.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.elvenmusic.com/podcast/archive/archive5/archive5.html (http://www.elvenmusic.com/podcast/archi ... hive5.html)




What rumours are you refering to?


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## IFM (Jan 17, 2010)

Allan I hate to tell you this but your site has been hacked and is now a Palestine extremist site!!! Yikes! :shock:


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Is the VSL "Silent Stage" a failed concept?*

Allan I think is referring to the very long debate in this thread - http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14946 - which got way off topic and needed its own place. Scoot to the last few pages of that discussion for the full context (I think it starting kicking off about half way down page 20).


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## Ed (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Is the VSL "Silent Stage" a failed concept?*

I was going to start a new thread but I guess i'll just carry it on in this one :D 





Mike Connelly @ Sat Jan 16 said:


> What exactly was their claim? I'd love to see a link to an exact quote, otherwise the whole discussion is fairly useless.



An example of the kind of thing has been given several times, In fact it wasn't even given by me. But here it is again.



Dietz said:


> > Dietz said:
> >
> >
> > > ...what makes you think that true legato- and repetition-samples would work better with 2 seconds of "built-in" reverb ...?
> ...



And that was written less than 5 months ago! 



> It's hard to fault them for taking a given approach when it let them release legato instruments almost ten years before some other companies. EW _still_ doesn't have legato winds and brass. And to be honest, I'm still not convinced that EW is doing legato as well as VSL did it on their first attempt.



First of all I'm not saying VSL are completely rubbish, or they have no good samples or that they shouldn't be praised for innovations that they gave us. All I am saying is that it is quite obvious that the main reasons they gave for designing the studio that way are wrong.

Secondly, practically everyone complains about VSL's original strings, so I don't know why you think they did it better. But this isn't just comparing it to HS, Its comparing it to products like LASS or Broadway Big Band. 

This isn't about newer products doing it better because they are newer, that would be unfair. This is about the original theory of the silent stage and how if these products can do it as well and BETTER, while still recording in a room based on its sonic strengths, then obviously the silent stage itself isn't required.

They didn't build the silent stage that way because they wanted to give you more mixing choices, Dietz said it himself a few months ago as you can see above, they built it that way based on the mistaken belief that you have to record stuff in that sterile close way, so you can record "usable legato and repetition" samples. 



vibrato @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> So you guys want to beat up Dietz for saying something that hasnt quite panned out as he thought?



They've still been saying it less than 5 months ago, but that's to be expected. I could see it being a little embarrassing to admit that the silent stage was technically a mistake and now they have to use it because they paid so much for it. And now all their new mixing products are kind of like a work around and frankly I think its pretty lucky that that seems to work alright.



> I think there are probably a few different ways of doing a sample library and VSL saw fit to do it their own way.



Once again, that is true. But their choice meant building a very expensive studio. "_Why do these samples have to be so dry?!_" People would ask. And then they would give an answer like Dietz did earlier. For *practical *purposes, that's the way it has to be, right? But that was wrong, it doesn't have to be that dry. 



> BTW - Another leading reason people seem to forget is that VSL wanted dry samples so that we could bend them to our needs - apply our own Reverbs etc. This is not possible in so many existing sample libraries - where it becomes difficult to apply your own settings - of course for those who want out of the box sounds - VSL is not the thing at all.



The mixing issue and so on was I think an afterthought, or at least just a way to say... _well it may be dry and it needs to be dry because otherwise we cant give you legato and repetition samples, but on the up side you can now mix it however you like!_. But really, most people didn't want that kind of thing they just had to put up with it because VSL was the only company providing such a lot of detailed samples. 


I'll stop there or else I'll only be repeating myself more.


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## Mike Connelly (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Is the VSL "Silent Stage" a failed concept?*



Ed @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> An example of the kind of thing has been given several times, In fact it wasn't even given by me. But here it is again.
> 
> ... which doesn't change the fact that you can't record usable legato- or repetition-samples in venues with huge reverb-tails.


 [/quote]

First, he doesn't say what you originally claimed they said, which was that it had to be totally dead. And second, since even the wettest HS mics aren't particularly wet (It sounds to me like even the surround mics are drier than Platinums mid mics, maybe even comparable to the close mics), they don't disprove his point. Could you point me to an example of a demo that does legato with a "huge reverb tail"?

If anything, the fact that EW switched to a radically drier room would seem to support the notion that they agree that it's easier to do legatos with drier recordings. Same goes for the fact that their fake legatos in Platinum PLAY have to turn off release tails and flip on the verb instead.



Ed @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> All I am saying is that it is quite obvious that the main reasons they gave for designing the studio that way are wrong.



However they managed it, they were able to do legato years before anyone else. The obvious question is, if it was possible to do legato in a wetter space AT THE TIME, then why didn't anyone else do it back then? The fact that it took everyone else so long to catch up sure makes it look like doing it in a wetter space was much harder.



Ed @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> I don't know why you think they did it better.



I didn't say they did it better, I said I haven't heard enough of the HS legatos to be confident they got it consistently right.



Ed @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> This isn't about newer products doing it better because they are newer, that would be unfair. This is about the original theory of the silent stage and how if these products can do it as well and BETTER, while still recording in a room based on its sonic strengths, then obviously the silent stage itself isn't required.



Well, that IS just newer products doing it better. It seems like the silent stage isn't required NOW (I assume based on advances in programming, scripting, and playback engines), but that doesn't mean it wasn't needed back then. Again, if it was possible to do legatos with wet recordings back then, then why didn't anyone else do it for quite some time?



Ed @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> Dietz said it himself a few months ago as you can see above



No he didn't, you're putting words in his mouth.


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## C.Septimus (Jan 17, 2010)

Is it just me, or is this a non-topic topic?


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## Mike Connelly (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Is the VSL "Silent Stage" a failed concept?*

Frankly I'm just glad it's finally split off, it seriously delayed the HS thread in a bad way.


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## midphase (Jan 17, 2010)

I would like to add my official position on all of this (for anyone who cares...yeah...the two of you in the back). I personally feel that the art of sampling is a living and breathing art, it evolves, and it has trends. I remember when people first started experimenting with ambient samples, the early Project SAM trumpet, and others. Everyone was searching for the best way, everyone was right and everyone was wrong.

I think that VSL was a pioneer in many ways, and they are still part of my template because a lot of what they did worked and still works today. As with any technology based product, it is unavoidable that sooner or later they would be challenged by someone else coming out with a better mouse trap.

As much as we praise the latest and greatest libraries today, we'll come to not like them anymore in 4-5 years because someone else will come out with a new approach that will simply work better. This is true not just for samples, but for everything in human history (except books....well, ok....maybe even books).

Anyway, I personally don't feel that it's necessary to point fingers or throw stones, we already do that with our credit cards. Believe me, when a developer is not on the right track, they know it, they can look at their sales charts, and get a perspective that most of us have no access to. 

In closing, I don't think the Silent Stage was a mistake or a failed concept, I reach for my VSL instruments on a daily basis still, and so do many others. However, I do think that the time might have come for Dietz and VSL to explore new ways of doing what they have been doing and show us that they're as innovative today as they were when they first appeared on the scene.


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## Ed (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Is the VSL "Silent Stage" a failed concept?*



Mike Connelly @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> First, he doesn't say what you originally claimed they said, which was that it had to be totally dead.



I said I was exaggerating in my first post, so don't quote me out of context. I've clarified since then many times. 

Anyway, the point is many people describe VSL's samples as "bone dry" as "dead", as "lifeless". I've seen it over and over. So whatever the actual reality of how dry the silent stage actually is, how many people do you know of that praise VSL's studio sound?



> And second, since even the wettest HS mics aren't particularly wet (It sounds to me like even the surround mics are drier than Platinums mid mics, maybe even comparable to the close mics), they don't disprove his point. Could you point me to an example of a demo that does legato with a "huge reverb tail"?



Except that's a false dilemma.

The alternative to the silent stage is *not *a room with a huge reverb tail. The fact that this is their response to people complaining about the silent stage only helps prove my point that they don't want to admit they were wrong.



> If anything, the fact that EW switched to a radically drier room would seem to support the notion that they agree that it's easier to do legatos with drier recordings.



They didn't switch because of that, they primarily switched because they bought that studio and they like the sound of the room. Also, Hollywood orchestras are usually recorded in a studio rather than an actual hall.

It would be interesting to ask the programmers at East West and Andrew K for LASS just how ambient you can go for interval recordings. Whatever the case is, its still proven you can find a nice studio with great acoustics and get various mic positions of your samples and STILL record interval samples and repetitions. 



> Same goes for the fact that their fake legatos in Platinum PLAY have to turn off release tails and flip on the verb instead.



Don't keep comparing QLegato that never worked to actual interval/repetition sampling. 



> However they managed it, they were able to do legato years before anyone else.



Everyone else could have done it at the same time had they had the programming language to do so (their Performace Tool). 

Why can we do it now? Because Gigastudio 3 had the right programming and Kontakt then came along with scripting which allowed you to do it. Play was written with scripting capable of doing it. 

The only reason VSL were doing it before anyone else is because they pioneered the idea and showed everyone it is possible. Because they had the time and money to record, edit and program these instruments. But we arent talking about intrerval legato being possible, VSL did a great job there. But they were wrong that you had to have essentially very dry close miced recordings to do that. 




> The obvious question is, if it was possible to do legato in a wetter space AT THE TIME, then why didn't anyone else do it back then? The fact that it took everyone else so long to catch up sure makes it look like doing it in a wetter space was much harder.



See above. And * everyone *who has done it since with the possible exception of Westgate, has done ambient recordings. 




> I didn't say they did it better, I said I haven't heard enough of the HS legatos to be confident they got it consistently right.



You said you weren't convinced, which means you think VSL's original strings still ranks up very highly on your quality scale, despite essentially everyone complaining about them. But again, why just compare HS? What about LASS? No one has said anything but good things about LASS's legato. And what about Broadway Big Band? That has up to 4 mic positions! You imagine thats 4 mic positions of dry?



> Well, that IS just newer products doing it better. It seems like the silent stage isn't required NOW (I assume based on advances in programming, scripting, and playback engines), but that doesn't mean it wasn't needed back then. Again, if it was possible to do legatos with wet recordings back then, then why didn't anyone else do it for quite some time?



If that were true, then explain why VSL was still saying less than 5 months ago the same thing they've been saying for years. That without a very dry close miced recording like in their silent stage, you cant get usable legato and repetition samples. 

And see above. No one did it because no one had the programming ability to do it for several years and it takes a lot of money and time to record intervals. More recording time, more editing time, more programming time. That's why people weren't doing it. The laws of physics didn't change. 



> No he didn't, you're putting words in his mouth.



The words don't need interpretation, they are right there. He said you cant do usable legato or repetition samples in an ambient environment defending their silent stage. No one said they wished VSL would record samples with huge reverb tails, they just didnt want close miced dry samples.


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## Ed (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Is the VSL "Silent Stage" a failed concept?*



hbuus @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> Ed, why do you care so deeply about this? Why is it so important to you?



Its not, I just remarked how funny it was that based on what VSL have said the products we now have shouldn't exist.

The reason why I am arguing it is because amazingly people actually dispute it!


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## Frederick Russ (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Is the VSL "Silent Stage" a failed concept?*

I think its a bit unfair to compare how legato was created technologically back in 2002 against how its created today eight years later. VSL were pioneers for being the first to integrate pre-recorded legato and portamento intervals. This was a real innovation - not a copy of a previous achievement. No one had done it before successfully so the ideologies of achieving working copies were knowingly a departure from other attempts using different techniques.

Hindsight is always 20/20 and without VSL's initial achievement, the race for believable legato and portamento by today's standard of sampling generational technique may well have been delayed - and I speak directly regarding the new incredible achievements in this arena by LASS and HS.

VSL - love them or don't - was a vital link in a long lineage of sample development technology. I for one acknowledge and appreciate their contribution.


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## Mike Connelly (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Is the VSL "Silent Stage" a failed concept?*



Ed @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> Everyone else could have done it at the same time had they had the programming language to do so (their Performace Tool).
> 
> 
> > Speculation on your part with no facts to back it up. Sorry, but your whole argument is based on your imagination coming up with what you think was going on inside the various companies back then.
> ...



Sorry, but you're still putting words in his mouth. He said you can't do it with a "HUGE REVERB TAIL". Show me a quote from VSL saying that it can't be done in an ambient environment at all?

This whole crusade against VSL really comes off as some sort of sour grapes or personal grudge, I just don't get it, nor do I see how it's relevant at all.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Is the VSL "Silent Stage" a failed concept?*



Ed @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> hbuus @ Sun Jan 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed, why do you care so deeply about this? Why is it so important to you?
> ...



Viewed from outside ,it appears that you are deeply invested in this topic. Your arguments seem overly heated and endlessly redundant....but as long as you're amused, carry on!


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## germancomponist (Jan 17, 2010)

Friends: Pease please!


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## SvK (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Is the VSL "Silent Stage" a failed concept?*

Is the silent stage a failed concept?

YES

Every book that covers recording and conducts interviews with famous engineers and producers, on how best to achieve a great recording, agree on one thing. Use the right mics and put them into a great sounding room. The silent stage was not designed to sound great. It was designed to sound neutral, in the hopes that convolutions could be applied to an uncolored sound. However as we see now, the sound captured initially in the recording must be musical, not dead in order to convince when heard. Vienna's concept has failed. We have progressed.

SvK


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## Peter Alexander (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Is the VSL "Silent Stage" a failed concept?*

The Silent Stage (their name for an inhouse studio) is NOT a failed concept. If it were, VSL would have been out of business years ago.


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## Ed (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Is the VSL "Silent Stage" a failed concept?*



Mike Connelly said:


> Speculation on your part with no facts to back it up. .




How is it speculation? 

You talk about legato intervals and repetition sampling like its some kind of magical process.

VSL were able to do what they needed to do because...

1. They came up with the idea.
2. They wrote the programming code for their "Performance Tool".

The only reason others couldn't do it initially was because they didn't have the performance tool. 

Later on you had Gigastudio and Kontakt with programming capable of doing the same thing. VSL actually claimed at the time that their Performance Tool was still better, even though people still preferred to use converted patches in Kontakt because practically there was no real difference, which if you recall was before they came out with their own VI engine.

Since then the only thing stopping other developers recording lots of round robins and interval legato samples is TIME and MONEY. VSL have enough money and man power to record all that they need to record, and they have enough money to pay people to do all the editing which would take a very long time. 

How on earth is that speculation? That's just the facts. If you disagree please tell me why *you *think its only relatively recently we have seen more libraries with real interval sampling?



> Wow, you love putting words in people's mouths, don't you?
> 
> What I mean specifically is that I haven't heard enough of the HS legatos to know if they match the CONVINCINGNESS OF THE LEGATO of other libraries. I'm not talking about aesthetics of tone quality at all.



How am I putting words in your mouth?

You didn't say "other libraries" since if you did you could have been referring to LASS or BBB, which would have been irrelevant anyway. 

What you said was *specifically *VSL and *specifically *their first attempts:


"I'm still not convinced that EW is doing legato as well *as VSL did it on their first attempt."*



> Does "essentially everyone" complain about the legato phrasing itself of VSL? I was under the impression that people don't like the sound, but are generally happy with how that particular feature works.



I've heard them complain about both. 




> Because it was on a thread about HS, and I wasn't interested in dragging things off topic.



But we were talking about the silent stage.... :? ... anyhoo, you cant use that excuse here, so please now address the comparisons to BBB and LASS. BBB, like I said, has 4 mic positions. They are not 4 mic positions of dry, are they? 



> Sorry, but you're still putting words in his mouth. He said you can't do it with a "HUGE REVERB TAIL". Show me a quote from VSL saying that it can't be done in an ambient environment at all?



Like I said before which you apparently didn't read:

That's a false dilemma.*

The alternative to the silent stage is NOT a room with a huge reverb tail. *

No one said they wished VSL would record samples with huge reverb tails, they just didnt want close miced dry samples.



> This whole crusade against VSL really comes off as some sort of sour grapes or personal grudge, I just don't get it, nor do I see how it's relevant at all.



It was only meant to be an off hand comment I didn't realise anyone would deny it as strongly as you have.


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## germancomponist (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Is the VSL "Silent Stage" a failed concept?*



SvK @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> Is the silent stage a failed concept?
> 
> YES
> 
> ...



Exactly what I said in the other thread. Maybe in some years the convo-reverbs are much better to do the job what is needed for recordings at the silent stage. 

AV 7 is out now.... .

Gunther


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## Ed (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Is the VSL "Silent Stage" a failed concept?*



Peter Alexander @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> The Silent Stage (their name for an inhouse studio) is NOT a failed concept. If it were, VSL would have been out of business years ago.



Peter, please tell me why the silent stage is necessarò€™   ¿Çž€™   ¿ÇŸ€™   ¿Ç €™   ¿Ç¡€™   ¿Ç¢€™   ¿


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## KingIdiot (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Is the VSL "Silent Stage" a failed concept?*

not a failed concept

and yes too much reverb/big halls can be problematic for legato.

Imagine writing a legato melody that has notes shorter than the time of the reverb. It will sound "clunky". Whether this is negligible is going to be up to personal taste. Obviously things et drowned out when you add more reverb, but you limit yourselves.

obviously smaller studios and "rooms" are a different story, and you get away with more, but you stamp on the character of the room.

VSL's approach was NEVER focused on being just a "soundtrack" library. In fact, it was designed to be more of a tool for orchestral composers to realize their music, without access to a real orchestra. Honestly I'm just guessing here), if they could have made legato/repetitions work in all instances the way THEY wanted, with their tools, they would have recorded in a big hall. Ultimately they realized to get the control they needed for the tools they were building, they needed to record in a smaller room, and decided to go with something more "neutral", than something with a distinct "character"

Its not a failed concept. Was it "unnecessary"? That's an opinion that no end user can really have, cuz its not your product. The only opinion you can have are whether you like or don't like the results.

back into the isolation chamber for me.


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## johncarter (Jan 17, 2010)

VSL old school ? 

When i hear this 

http://vsl.co.at/downloader.asp?file=/S ... mode_1.mp3


or that 

http://vsl.co.at/downloader.asp?file=/S ... artett.mp3

or this 

http://vsl.co.at/downloader.asp?file=/S ... e_Wolf.mp3

I don't think they're old school :D


In fact, the VSL solo instruments are amazing .. nobody can beat them

But the thing with VSL is you need to be a strong writer and orchestrator. Really strong


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## Fernando Warez (Jan 17, 2010)

midphase @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> In closing, I don't think the Silent Stage was a mistake or a failed concept, I reach for my VSL instruments on a daily basis still, and so do many others. However, I do think that the time might have come for Dietz and VSL to explore new ways of doing what they have been doing and show us that they're as innovative today as they were when they first appeared on the scene.



That's kind of how i see it. I don't think the silent stage was a mistake at all. I think they were right. It's true a closed/dry recording is best for sampling performance because it allows for cleaner tight editing. But i think this is where they might have taken this a little too far. I'd say pull back the mics a little and perhaps threat the room differently to have more early reflections etc.. Personally, I'm fine the way things are... I mean i would like to see some improvement of course but it's not that bad for my needs. But i can see why some people want to see some changes. Especially for strings and brass section.

Now this is my very humble opinion and I'll admit I'm not really qualified to comment on that so take it for what it is. 

I hope VSL does listen because I'm a VSL fan boy and just want to see VSL succeed.


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## José Herring (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Is the VSL "Silent Stage" a failed concept?*

I know plenty of strong orchestrators and writers that can't make heads or tails of vsl. I think more one needs to be a strong programmer. Which is a different skill all together and one that not too many people really achieve. I for one struggle with the patience. I admit that if I'm working with samples that require a lot of programming and mixing to sound good my confidence starts to shake with regards to what I'm writing.

I'm not saying that I've not heard some amazing things from VSL. I have. But when I inquire as to how those mockups were created I'm left scratching my head wondering who really has the time to do that.

I know that when I get projects I have days to turn around some music. Not weeks or months. 

I will admit that given the time I'd probably invest in VSL a lot more than I have. But having worked with live instruments almost exclusively in the past, I find the task of making what I have of VSL work too time consuming. 

I will admit that I only got as far as the Horizon series and never really got into the Player thingy. But I did try out the player when I got VEPro and for me it only made things worse. Now I can't even get to the samples to tighten up the articulations, ect...

All in all, I just think that they are way behind as far as user friendliness is concerned.

But with all that being said, I use VSL for a lot of single instrument stuff because I think the woods and harp and non pitched high percussion and celeste are still the best out there. Also, I think Epic horns and the new Trumpets sound pretty good but I seldom use full section samples any way so it's kind of not my cup of tea.

Jose


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## Ed (Jan 17, 2010)

Some of you are really missing the point.

Can any of you actually say what the silent stage is actually FOR?

I've said the silent stage concept was wrong because it is based on the incorrect theory that they needed it to be built that way to offer their performance techniques.


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## navidson (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Is the VSL "Silent Stage" a failed concept?*

MIR?


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## SvK (Jan 17, 2010)

ED...

it was intended to record samples to which Impulse responses could be applied in the purest manner. In other words completely neutral recordings, with as little as possible colorations to get optimum realism form a good impulse response.

SvK


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## SvK (Jan 17, 2010)

Put another way. To record samples with NO "room stamp". This way, when applying Todd AO, the resulting sound is really Violin in Todd AO NOT violin in Vienna AND in Todd AO.......except

...it doesn't work well.

SvK


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## Ed (Jan 17, 2010)

SVK:

Of course that's generaly the story NOW though, but thats not the reason they gave at the start, which is why you have Dietz saying what he did in response to someone criticising the silent stage. 

They didn't have plans for their own VI and mixing tools at the start, or if they did they didn't promote that. The silent stage was necessary for the performance tools to work, they said. Its only now they are trying to make the best of it. When people criticised their room the response was usually that at least you could mix it however you want.

Do you need a room that generates no reverb tails to have legato samples? No. 

Can you record repetition samples in ambient rooms? Very much so, see Tonehammer.


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## SvK (Jan 17, 2010)

What Vienna DO desrve tremendous credit for is the sheer number of Articulations they have...

They never skimped on Dynamics either (pfps, crecsendos, decresc, sfz, sffz) that stuff is soooo crucial...

I will continue to use them for that stuff....
Until something better comes along. And maybe they will be the ones who make it.

ps: offtopic pet peeve: anyone who thinks they can pull of an aggressive crescendo with the mod-wheel and sustains is kidding themselves...developers should follow VSLs lead on this and record that stuff;....

SvK


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## Fernando Warez (Jan 17, 2010)

Ed @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> Some of you are really missing the point.
> 
> Can any of you actually say what the silent stage is actually FOR?
> 
> I've said the silent stage concept was wrong because it is based on the incorrect theory that they needed it to be built that way to offer their performance techniques.



Don't take my word for it but my understanding is that it's better to have dry samples from an editing point of view.ò€é   ¿×€é   ¿×€é   ¿×€é   ¿×€é   ¿×€é   ¿×€é   ¿×€é   ¿× €é   ¿×!€é   ¿×"€é   ¿×#€é   ¿×$€é   ¿×%€é   ¿×&€é   ¿×'€é   ¿×(€é   ¿×)€é   ¿×*€é   ¿×+€é   ¿×,€é   ¿×-€é   ¿×.€é   ¿×/€é   ¿×0€é   ¿×1€é   ¿×2€é   ¿×3€é   ¿×4€é   ¿×5€é   ¿×6€é   ¿×7€é   ¿×8€é   ¿×9€é   ¿×:€é   ¿×;€é   ¿×<€é   ¿×=€é   ¿×>€é   ¿×?€é   ¿×@€é   ¿×A€é   ¿×B€é   ¿×C€é   ¿×D€é   ¿×E€é   ¿×F€é   ¿×G€é   ¿×H€é   ¿×I€é   ¿×J€é   ¿×K€é   ¿×L€é   ¿×M€é   ¿×N€é   ¿×O€é   ¿×P€é   ¿×Q€é   ¿×R€é   ¿×S€é   ¿×T€é   ¿×U€é   ¿×V€é   ¿×W€é   ¿×X€é   ¿×Y€é   ¿×Z€


----------



## Pzy-Clone (Jan 17, 2010)

hm..havent VSL backed themselves into a corner with the MIR thing?

If they abandon their silent stage concept in favour of a more desirable location at this point, would that not only as Ed say...prove the concept to be failed, but also render MIR completely futile?

Despite that everyone really wants (well..me atleast) a VSL library recorded in a great sounding and more ambient room, or even Hall...it seems unlikely at this point?


----------



## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Is the VSL "Silent Stage" a failed concept?*

MIR, that's the answer. That's why continuing with the silent stage is required (to me)

MIR fits with VSL perfectly. It makes them sound that much better to my ears (demos) and they've had plans for MIR during the development of VSL.

That would be the main reason why the silent stage is useful for them.

And for me, well personally I like changing the sound using ERs and Impulses depending on the project. Sending stems to sound engineers also helps in that regard.


----------



## Revson (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Is the VSL "Silent Stage" a failed concept?*



NYC Composer @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> Ed @ Sun Jan 17 said:
> 
> 
> > hbuus @ Sun Jan 17 said:
> ...



I don't have that impression. I've seen this before: Ed makes a perfectly sensible comment on a controversial subject, someone takes offense and posts, and Ed replies. And replies.

Ed, just want you to know there are thousands who read and understand your original comment. On a public board there will _always_ be someone to post in disagreement. You can lay out elegant and diplomatic replies till you're blue in the face , and they're still gonna be there But have at it if youre having fun...


----------



## dcoscina (Jan 17, 2010)

I don't think it was a failed concept- but I own many many VSL products so perhaps I'm biased.


----------



## KingIdiot (Jan 17, 2010)

Ed @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> No one who is defending the silent stage has actually explained...
> 
> What the silent stage was good for vs a normal nice room.
> 
> While also taking into consideration Dietz' comments.





SvK @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> KingIdiot...
> 
> we are not talking about recording samples with baked in massive tails, in a huge hall. We are talking about capturing GOOD sound from a room.
> 
> ...



This is my last coment on this thread, but I think I did explain that "good rooms" have a distinct character, and that was something they wanted to avoid. the "room within a room" sound. That was the purpose of the SS, if I remember correctly. To minimize the actual "sound" of a room. Without going fully anechoic.

Ultimately the most vocal group of sample users are film industry and score guys, Those guys want "character" that they're used to.

A failure, no. Lacking to some end users, yes.

epic failure...

no, unless maybe you're talking about this thread.




I say this without being a hyper VSL fanboy. I havent used the stuff in a while, cuz I could never afford the upgrade, so I've still only got the giga stuff.

I think HS sound phenomenal.

So does LASS

so does symphobia

as does VSL

all for different reasons.

Truth be told. I can't fucking understand why, with the tools we have make sounds or to change the sound of stuff at such a massive level, that discussions like this still have to go on.

The silent stage a failure? un-fucking-believable.

It gave them what they want, and what they needed, to go after what they were ultimately looking for in terms of MIR and using their performance tools. Other libraries doing it differently, just proves that other options are viable, but none are more "right" than the other, because each fit their own approach.ò   ¿¾e   ¿¾f   ¿¾g   ¿¾h   ¿¾i   ¿¾j   ¿¾k   ¿¾l   ¿¾m   ¿¾n   ¿¾o   ¿¾p   ¿¾q   ¿¾   ¿¾   ¿¾   ¿¾   ¿¾    ¿¾!   ¿¾"   ¿¾#   ¿¾$   ¿¾%   ¿¾&   ¿¾'   ¿¾(   ¿¾)   ¿¾*   ¿¾+   ¿¾,   ¿¾-   ¿¾.   ¿¾/   ¿¾0   ¿¾1   ¿¾2   ¿¾3   ¿¾4   ¿¾5   ¿¾6   ¿¾7   ¿¾8   ¿¾9   ¿¾:   ¿¾;   ¿¾<   ¿¾=   ¿¾>   ¿¾?   ¿¾@   ¿¾A   ¿¾B   ¿¾C   ¿¾D   ¿¾E   ¿¾F   ¿¾G   ¿¾H   ¿¾I   ¿¾J   ¿¾K   ¿¾L   ¿¾M   ¿¾N   ¿¾O   ¿¾P   ¿¾Q   ¿¾R   ¿¾S   ¿¾T   ¿¾U   ¿¾V   ¿¾W   ¿¾X   ¿¾Y   ¿¾Z   ¿¾[   ¿¾\   ¿¾]   ¿¾^   ¿¾_   ¿ßÜ   ¿ßÝ   ¿ßÞ   ¿ßß   ¿ßà   ¿ßá   ¿ßâ   ¿ßã   ¿


----------



## choc0thrax (Jan 17, 2010)

KingIdiot @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> Ed @ Sun Jan 17 said:
> 
> 
> > No one who is defending the silent stage has actually explained...
> ...



Good post. o-[][]-o


----------



## Ed (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Is the VSL "Silent Stage" a failed concept?*



Revson @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> [
> I don't have that impression. I've seen this before: Ed makes a perfectly sensible comment on a controversial subject, someone takes offense and posts, and Ed replies. And replies.
> 
> Ed, just want you to know there are thousands who read and understand your original comment. On a public board there will _always_ be someone to post in disagreement. You can lay out elegant and diplomatic replies till you're blue in the face , and they're still gonna be there But have at it if youre having fun...



hehe, thanks Revson o


----------



## KingIdiot (Jan 17, 2010)

Ed @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> King you still haven't dealt with Dietz's comments, because you cant.
> 
> There is no way you can defend it, its just plain wrong.
> 
> ...



dammit, I DID Ed. You CAN NOT do Legato Strings (especially portamento) in a big hall and have it ALWAYS sound right, fast moving lines and the tails get chopped. That was their reasoning for the silent stage. They could have gone small room, but decided they didn't want the "room with a room" sound, so they went silent stage. It as a two fold approach. No big hall... lead to smaller room...which led to room tones, which they didnt want, which led to silent stage.

how does that not make sense to you, and how is it back tracking?


Again, I'm not saying its IMPOSSIBLE to do legato strings ina big hall, in fact I have alot of work around ideas that no one has done yet. Repetitions are even easier than legato to do in big halls.

There. I'm really done  If you still argue your point, its your POV, I believe I've been clear enough to not have the whole "YOU CANT, CAN YOU?" defense put to rest.

ugh. I'm of to play a real instrument

on that note...

I'm sorta reminded of this incident a couple of days ago where a douchebag with a Didgeridoo insinuated that because he played the didge, and I played the guitar he was more in touch with something I couldnt understand. Something more tribal, more "human"

I fucking sing,...you fucking didgeridouche!


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 17, 2010)

> There is no way you can defend it, its just plain wrong



Have you heard their woodwinds, Ed? Which ones do you think are better?

They're recording with early reflections from the stage - designed to sound like a real stage in a hall - and then adding the tails artificially. Different techniques work well for different things. I think the weakness with the Silent Stage is high strings, but you can't say the concept is all wrong and can't be defended. Those woodwinds provide plenty of defense.

It's also a matter of taste. VSL is tuned perfectly and very even. Their idea is that you can add hairs later. There's nothing wrong with that idea.

And Jose, there are composers who are confused by everything. Being a great composer doesn't automatically make you know what the f you're talking about when it comes to sample libraries.

For example, I heard a story about a composer who saw LASS at NAMM, was impressed...but then commented that all those sliders are way too complicated for him to deal with.

Well, that to me is hardly phi beta kappa. What could be simpler than using the mod wheel for velocity layers, cc11 and 7 sliders for volume, another cc to adjust the length of the portmento speed, and another one to turn off the A.M.G. script on legato programs? And velocity to adjust the attack..okay, and the mod wheel to shorten the length of the short articulations.

Similarly, if you just want to play VSL then load up the super-duper-machine-hogging programs with everything and just play.


----------



## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Is the VSL "Silent Stage" a failed concept?*

I can defend that comment actually, being a VSL user. No, not going to go on about MIR this time. But that is one huge factor.

VSL has very distinct legato. It's not just legato, it's key clicks and other organic textures. Specifically in the solo instruments. We're not talking about one particular library, so really all the libs apply.

In a heavier ambient situation (I still stand by that VSL has a room sound to it, though lite) you would be able to hear those elements as much. The organic elements that make VSL pretty distinctive would be washed out, and even more if you decided to added more, even though said library put the room reflections in for you.

So them saying "we can't record legato without an SS" probably meant more like "we can't record legato in the way we wish to without an SS"

EW said somewhere on the same lines that VSL legato was done wrong, but of course that's opinion (I believe that was a while back though)

On top of that, that whole argument probably is not the sole reason they went with the SS. They no doubt again wanted it to be an SS due to their plans with MIR.


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## Jack Weaver (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Is the VSL "Silent Stage" a failed concept?*

*Pzy-Cone sez:*


> hm..havent VSL backed themselves into a corner with the MIR thing?



I pretty much agree with this statement. This is probably close to the truth and also slightly askew from the VSL viewpoint. VSL has been developing Mir for years and years. It obviously is a big part of their vision. They really haven't seen significant monetary returns from the huge investment they've put forward.

When I talked to Paul Steinbauer at NAMM a couple days ago he said there is still a ton of development to do with Mir. Obviously it has to integrate more easily in more types of work flow paradigms. To date it seems that Mir has been created with the Silent Stage-type ambient samples and each of their articulations has some meta-data stamped into them to trigger the appropriate response from Mir. 

HOWEVER, I'll bet it doesn't prohibit them from creating their own 'more-ambient' samples in the future to work within the Mir format. They already have a new version of Mir that allows Omnisphere and Kontakt to work with Mir. 

Mir provides a type of sonic environment that is not touchable with Bricastis, Lexicons and convos. I'm betting that Mir will become a significant tool in not only the composition community but also music and post as the years roll by. 

I'm also reasonably sure the VSL really wants to keep selling sample libraries to the masses and sees the need to provide more ambient products. They have a lot of employees and expenses. They are a little headstrong (that may well be why their products maintain such a quality level) but they are definitely not stupid. 

I was a little surprised that Paul has never sat down in front of LASS yet.

EDIT:
Likewise I was surprised that Brian @ Bricasti has never even heard of Mir. Obviously, developers live in Developer World.


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## synergy543 (Jan 17, 2010)

Can anyone post a better mockup example of Woodwinds than Jay Bacal's Barber Summer using the grand ol' VSL and the Numeric IRs?

http://www.numericalsound.com/FORTI_SERTI_Demos/NS_Barber_SummerWindQ_RI_2.mp3 (http://www.numericalsound.com/FORTI_SER ... Q_RI_2.mp3)

Can someone post what they think is even a "slightly" comparable example using another lib?

"Failed concept"? Wash your ears out with turpentine my friend.


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## Peter Alexander (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Is the VSL "Silent Stage" a failed concept?*

On general principle, when you're doing repeated notes, and there's a lot of reverb (let's use that word), the pitches get swallowed. 

It's an easy test. Try 16th notes at 90BPM repeating on the same pitch with whatever repeated note non-percussion articulation you want. Listen dry, then start adding in reverb. At what point do the pitches begin being swallowed by the reverb?

Additionally, ambience is an imprecise, non-measurable term. 

@Jose - once you master the Vienna Instruments Player you'll be pleasantly surprised how fast you can work.


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## Ed (Jan 17, 2010)

synergy543 @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> Can anyone post a better mockup example of Woodwinds than Jay Bacal's Barber Summer using the grand ol' VSL and the Numeric IRs?
> 
> http://www.numericalsound.com/FORTI_SERTI_Demos/NS_Barber_SummerWindQ_RI_2.mp3 (http://www.numericalsound.com/FORTI_SER ... Q_RI_2.mp3)
> 
> ...



Shame you don't understand my point, I'm tired of explaining it over and over again.


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## Peter Alexander (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Is the VSL "Silent Stage" a failed concept?*

@Jack - I was working with (not for) Vienna at the very beginning. They have a long term business/development plan, and MIR is part of that plan. 

From the very beginning, their goal was to provide a complete orchestral production system. With MIR's release, that goal was accomplished. Unfortunately for VSL, they don't have an "American" marketing mentality so a lot of times, their innovations don't get the public attention they deserve.

GigaStudio issues were a serious problem for them because, like it or not, the delay of Giga 3 delayed their release of a 24bit solution. It was always their original intent to release the First and Pro Editions as 24bit. When Giga 24bit didn't materialize, it was either wait, or get to market. That IS a business decision. 

So they went to market with 16bit. 

The idea that their samples are old is ridiculous!

Some of us, even with 24bit libraries, still use the older Roland library for some programs because they work and sound great. 

How the string samples sound has more to do with Herb Tucmandl's aural vision than the Silent Stage. Every developer hears strings differently. That's a major reason why all the string libraries sound so different. The hall/studio, micing, et al, of course they're important. But how the person hears who's doing the recording, producing and editing, is also important. 

As I understand it, Herb did a lot of the Giga programming himself. So there's another factor!


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## synergy543 (Jan 17, 2010)

Ed @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> Shame you don't understand my point, I'm tired of explaining it over and over again.


Ed, no need to. 

Simply post a better example (or something even "remotely" close) using *any library* of your choice.

Given your rant, that should be no problem I assume? I'm curious to hear what those little ears of yours (avatar) thinks sounds better. o 

Don't just stand there looking bug eyed...send me a link. :shock:


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Is the VSL "Silent Stage" a failed concept?*



Peter Alexander @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> @Jack - I was working with (not for) Vienna at the very beginning. They have a long term business/development plan, and MIR is part of that plan.
> 
> From the very beginning, their goal was to provide a complete orchestral production system. With MIR's release, that goal was accomplished. Unfortunately for VSL, they don't have an "American" marketing mentality so a lot of times, their innovations don't get the public attention they deserve.
> 
> ...


\

/thread

I love you PA.


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## Ed (Jan 17, 2010)

synergy543 @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> Ed @ Sun Jan 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Shame you don't understand my point, I'm tired of explaining it over and over again.
> ...



Except that wouldn't prove anything. 

How about you provide a better example of legato and repetition in comparable instruments to BBB, HS or LASS. 

Remember it has to beat the best of that lot or else you fail. If you're confused, try reading my posts more carefully.


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## synergy543 (Jan 17, 2010)

Can't find one eh?

Nuf said.
/\~O


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## david robinson (Jan 17, 2010)

hi,
i don't want to appear rude, but, have ANY of you ever heard an acoustic instrument in an anechoic chamber?
my opinion: they don't sound good at all.
sooooo our german friends go stick whole bunch in there.
wooo-hooooo.
break out the .20cent champagne!!!!
j.


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## Ed (Jan 17, 2010)

synergy543 @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> Can't find one eh?
> 
> Nuf said.
> /\~O



Uh uh... you really have no idea what Im taking about, do you synergy?


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jan 17, 2010)

Ed said:


> How about you provide a better example of legato and repetition in comparable instruments to BBB, HS or LASS.



He did. Show me another wind lib that's has more detailed legato.

So me a solo string lib where you can hear the players fingers hitting the board.

So me a french horn lib that actually has a detailed lip slur in it.

Those other libs may have recorded in a more roomy sound, but they don't have that much detail that I can hear.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 17, 2010)

The Silent Stage has absolutely nothing to do with an anechoic chamber, David. Nothing.

It's designed to be the stage of a concert hall without the stage. The room has early reflections and then a very short reverb tail.

If you're not clear on what that means I'd be happy to explain.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 17, 2010)

Okay Ed, I went back and saw your original post in this thread. And indeed you're mistaken about the concept. Sorry, you're simply wrong.

First, the reason for the Silent Stage is more than just short reverb - although you do want short reverb for recorded legato. I'm curious what EW did with their library, but it stands to reason that you don't want the original note hanging on for 3 secs while you transition to the destination note.

But the concept of the Silent Stage is inherent in the name. They made it silent so there aren't noises on the samples, and we've already explained the stage concept: the idea is to allow you to add whatever tail you want and put the instruments in anything from a room to a hall. Convolution reverb really is very good, you know.


----------



## Ed (Jan 17, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> He did. Show me another wind lib that's has more detailed legato.



No he did not. Where was that? BBB have the best brass and winds *of that style *and LASS and HS together show you can do strings better than VSL did it. 



> Those other libs may have recorded in a more roomy sound, but they don't have that much detail that I can hear.



This is like religious anti-science logic. 

Before LASS, Tonehammer and HS, VSL would act like you cant do "usable legato and repetition samples" unless its close mic'd in a dry studio. Then all these libraries came along and proved them wrong and this is how the goal posts get moved.

Now its all about mixing, they made it that way because of mixing. It was all on purpose! When they said it was about performance tools we were mistaken! Problem is they still claimed it was because of the performance tools and that they designed the silent stage because of that, they did *not *say "detailed". The word "detailed" is very different to the word "usable" which is the word Dietz chose to use. Why do you think he chose to use the word "usable" less than 5 months ago?

You and Synergy now argue along the lines of... _well maybe products like BBB and LASS do those instruments better, but you can't beat their woodwinds! Show me something that beats their woodwinds!_

So what happens when Andrew K makes LA Scoring Woodwinds? Or East West make Hollywood Woodwinds or Hollywood Brass. And they contain multiple mic's and true interval legato and everyone agrees it sounds better than VSL's. What happens then? Where will you move the goal posts when that happens and why can't you see you are doing that?


----------



## Ed (Jan 17, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> Okay Ed, I went back and saw your original post in this thread. And indeed you're mistaken about the concept. Sorry, you're simply wrong.
> 
> First, the reason for the Silent Stage is more than just short reverb - although you do want short reverb for recorded legato. I'm curious what EW did with their library, but it stands to reason that you don't want the original note hanging on for 3 secs while you transition to the destination note.
> 
> But the concept of the Silent Stage is inherent in the name. They made it silent so there aren't noises on the samples, and we've already explained the stage concept: the idea is to allow you to add whatever tail you want and put the instruments in anything from a room to a hall. Convolution reverb really is very good, you know.



Sorry Nick, you're wrong. 

Dietz clearly offered a false dilemma, did he not? The silent stage is not the only alternative to a huge reverberant hall, is it? If he is right why would he have to offer such poor logic? He is also wrong about not being able to get "usable" interval and repetition samples from more ambient samples, isnt he?


----------



## KingIdiot (Jan 17, 2010)

there is so much theory vomit in this thread it makes me literally want to puke

I answered your Q Ed, btw, you seem to have missed it.

Peter, I understand what you are trying to say, but
the idea that pitch gets lost in reverb is a really bad example in this context

In fact, when you split repetitions in reverberated spaces you actually accentuate the "attack" pitch of the sample because of the chopping of the tails, and velocity accenting. Which can be problematic of course if there is slurring going on, but that dirt can add a bit of liveliness that some people might like.

The practice of sampling and editing already reverberated samples has SO little to do with what happens when adding reverb to an existing recording/samples. There's so much you're not taking in account for, including recording techniques like multiple mics (even mixed together) that added reverb doesnt deal with. i'm just saying its a bad example, thats all.

I think the reason I'm so frustrated here is because you are all such smart people and the arguments going on here are so fucking ignorant and condescending, that its making me want to condescend. Or is it just descend... my head down against my keyboard.


----------



## synergy543 (Jan 17, 2010)

You can clearly hear there is quite a bit of ambience of the silent stage in the podcast link (at 2min) posted in the first message of this thread.

@David, have YOU ever heard acoustic instruments in anechoic chamber? I happen to have a Denon reference CD recording of an entire orchestra recorded in an anechoic chamber. It really is absolutely nothing like the VSL Silent Stage.


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## Ed (Jan 17, 2010)

KingIdiot @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> there is so much theory vomit in this thread it makes me literally want to puke
> 
> I answered your Q Ed, btw, you seem to have missed it.



As far as I can tell you didn't answer any of them so I guess you'd have to point it out. 

My questions were at the end of my reply to you:

_Clearly all the products we have now show that the silent stage is not necessary for interval sampling or repetitions. That's a fact, isn't it? Those products like LASS, HS, BBB and Tonehammer do exist, dont they? Therefore at least half of the entire reason they said they built the "silent stage" was based on an incorrect theory, wasnt it?_


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## KingIdiot (Jan 17, 2010)

KingIdiot @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> dammit, I DID Ed. You CAN NOT do Legato Strings (especially portamento) in a big hall and have it ALWAYS sound right, fast moving lines and the tails get chopped. That was their reasoning for the silent stage. They could have gone small room, but decided they didn't want the "room with a room" sound, so they went silent stage. It as a two fold approach. No big hall... lead to smaller room...which led to room tones, which they didnt want, which led to silent stage.
> 
> how does that not make sense to you, and how is it back tracking?


----------



## a.leung (Jan 17, 2010)

edited title by OP.


----------



## Ed (Jan 17, 2010)

synergy543 @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> @Ed, when you're losing, ya gotta learn when to fold it. But if you still wanna try, I suggest you look for an example done with Sonic Implants, Westgate, or Christian Studios if you have it.



Apparently I'm going to have to try and spell it out to you, Synergy.

Why can't you compare stuff that has *actually *been recorded that is comparable to VSL? Stuff like Broadway Big Band, LASS and HS? No one has undertaken a massive sampling project with Woodwinds, so what use is it comparing those products? VSL's method clearly didnt work well for strings but seems its much kinder to woodwinds, but is there a better way? 

The point I'm making (_and I really hope you read this over and over until it sinks in_), is that the silent stage and their method is completely *unnecessary *for repetition and legato sampling, which is against what VSL have claimed in the past. So, what is the point of the silent stage *TODAY*? Apparently its about "mixing", its about "detail" and Herb's personal idea of how he likes strings to sound (which apparently the majority of people disagree with)

Have you looked at what Dietz said about their silent stage? Why did he make out that the only alternative to a silent stage is a huge ambient space? Why did he say that you cant get usable repetition and legato samples in ambient spaces? Why did he respond that way to someone that was just querying why VSL's samples had to be so close mic'd and dry?


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## david robinson (Jan 17, 2010)

synergy543 @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> You can clearly hear there is quite a bit of ambience of the silent stage in the podcast link (at 2min) posted in the first message of this thread.
> 
> @David, have YOU ever heard acoustic instruments in anechoic chamber? I happen to have a Denon reference CD recording of an entire orchestra recorded in an anechoic chamber. It really is absolutely nothing like the VSL Silent Stage.



synergy,
both are the same to me.
unmusical.
most of the VSL lib. sounds/performs in a stilted way with me.
i have to do more work editing them than any other lib i use, for a similar result.
time wasters.
jr.


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## synergy543 (Jan 17, 2010)

Ed, King responded clearly to you already.

None of the examples you cite are done in a full wash of reverb. Not LASS, not BB, not HS. They are actually recorded in studios or sound stages that have rather limited ambience (and no LONG reverb). Perhaps you noticed all of the comments by passionate HS fans that few of them could hear a significant difference between the different mic positions (as they can with EWQLSO). That's because in a studio (even as large is EW) or even soundstages, there are really only ERs and no long reverb as you get from a hall.

See, HS, is really more like VSL than EWLQSO. If anything, you're proving the EWQLSO concept of recording samples in a full wash of reverb doesn't work so well (although I do like the sound of the Benaroya Hall). Nevertheless, East West (not VSL) has decided to move in a different direction that utilizes the advantages of smaller recording spaces for samples.

And....to rectify this....Nick announced they will be coming out with "SPACES" (not "Basses"). And exactly what is that?

ITS A CONVOLUTION REVERB THAT YOU WILL NEED TO ADD REVERB BACK INTO THE SOMEWHAT DRY STUDIO RECORDINGS OF HOLLYWOOD STRINGS.

Get it now? Cause ya had it backwards.

East West is moving TOWARDS the VSL concept of studio recordings.
o-[][]-o


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## david robinson (Jan 17, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> The Silent Stage has absolutely nothing to do with an anechoic chamber, David. Nothing.
> 
> It's designed to be the stage of a concert hall without the stage. The room has early reflections and then a very short reverb tail.
> 
> If you're not clear on what that means I'd be happy to explain.


nick,
you're lecturing me again.
(i've designed a number of studios and have "lectured" for a living.)
neither are acceptable to me, but i DO use vsl in a pinch.
and lotza others.
but when the chips are down , i hire a real player/s, and put 'em on a sound stage.
jr.


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## Ed (Jan 17, 2010)

KingIdiot @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> KingIdiot @ Sun Jan 17 said:
> 
> 
> > dammit, I DID Ed. You CAN NOT do Legato Strings (especially portamento) in a big hall and have it ALWAYS sound right, fast moving lines and the tails get chopped. That was their reasoning for the silent stage. They could have gone small room, but decided they didn't want the "room with a room" sound, so they went silent stage. It as a two fold approach. No big hall... lead to smaller room...which led to room tones, which they didnt want, which led to silent stage.
> ...



Seriously? You're trying to use the false dilemma as well, King?

The alternative to the silent stage is not a huge ambient hall, how many times does it have to be said?

Did LASS record in the equivalent of the "silent stage"? Did BBB record in the equivalent of the "silent stage"? Did HS record in the equivalent of the "silent stage"?

No, and they all made very "usable" legato and repetition samples. Of course we cant be completely sure what HS sounds like, but going by the reviews and demos of LASS and BBB they do those techniques a lot better than VSL did them despite not recording in the equivalent of the "silent stage"?

(And while we cant hear them yet Sovereign said he successfully programmed legato samples recorded in a very wet hall. )

You still didnt deal with what Dietz said. In response to someone asking why their samples have to be so close mic'd and dry sounding, he replies with this flawed logic which shows he didn't want to admit that actually they could record their samples in a different environment but they choose not to for other reasons.

He didn't say that they record it because that's the way they like them, he didnt say that that's the way they record it because that's the best way to integrate with MIR. He said that's the only way you can get "usable" results. Why can't you just admit Dietz was wrong in this case? And that every time in the past that they made out that dry close mic'd recordings were the only way to get usable legato and repetition samples they were wrong as well?


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## Ed (Jan 17, 2010)

synergy543 @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> See, HS, is really more like VSL than EWLQSO. If anything, you're proving the EWQLSO concept of recording samples in a full wash of reverb doesn't work so well (although I do like the sound of the Benaroya Hall). Nevertheless, East West (not VSL) has decided to move in a different direction that utilizes the advantages of smaller recording spaces for samples.



Blah blah blah. I've said for ages that it was wrong of EW to record in the hall when film scores are usually recorded in studios, and Im still baffled at how they made some of their orchestra sound so weird. 

But how do you think this means EW are going over to the "VSL's style" of recording is confusing. 

People talk about how nice Abbey Road studio sounds, how nice Todd AO sounded, and how nice EW studio sounds. 

They do not ever talk about how "nice" VSL's silent stage sounds, because they didn't build it to sound "nice" they built it to do practical things based on a theory that was at least 50% wrong, assuming the other 50% was about integrating with MIR 10 years down the road.

You also seem to be under the mistaken belief that I am saying EW is better, this has nothing to do with who is better. EW does some things better, VSL has some better products and has some really awesome products, but I am not religiously obligated to defend every decision they made when I can see one very large claim they made turned out to be very very wrong even if I like many of their products.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jan 17, 2010)

For the record, HS (the biggest room sound) has not really convinced me of legato. It's there, but I can't really hear it.


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## synergy543 (Jan 17, 2010)

Ed @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> Did LASS record in the equivalent of the "silent stage"? Did BBB record in the equivalent of the "silent stage"? Did HS record in the equivalent of the "silent stage"?


Ed, do you know of what you speak? Do you even own LASS?

If so, try the Cellos Full Pizzicato at C3 or C2 and tell me if you can hear any discernable reverb. 

Any?

No listen very carefully....


ANY?

As you can hear, it is far closer to the VSL Silent Sound Stage than to the Benaroya. And that's not to say its dry, cause the Silent Sound Stage isn't completely dry either as you heard in the podcast (you can hear that right?) 

LASS in fact has more ERs than VSL, but not more reverb.


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## KingIdiot (Jan 17, 2010)

I was arguing the point made, and your title thread.

I've adamantly said that you CAN record legato and repetitions in rooms and halls (probably better than has been done to date actually if you ask me, but I don't have LASS so maybe its done enough in that sucker)

but it wont hold up to VSL's standards. There's a precision they like and require. Something they can only get from the silent stage with minimized ERs.

So to them it cant be done, with their standards.

whether our standards and ears are that discernible, different story.

our personal taste of what is acceptable or preferable, does not make him a liar, nor does it make the SS obsolete.

false dilemma? are you fucking kidding me? It was on their minds from the get go, once the big hall went out the window, it became about overall concept. Whether they've reached that goal for you, not the discussion (or maybe it is)

again, there ARE problems with recording repetitions and legatos in spaces, even rooms. They're negligible to people like us, but not to them. Calling him a liar because he's defending their ideals is wrong.

You're arguing two seperate concepts here, and this is why people are getting confused.

What Dietz said is one argument, then titling this thread whatever it was and whatever it is now, is a whole DIFFERENT argument. And then when someone starts debating one of them, you switch to the other. No wonder some people are all WTF?!

anyway.. *poof*

I'm off to record whistles in the very echoic chamber that is my toilet.

have fun calling people out!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 17, 2010)

Why is this thread so aggravating? I don't know why, but it really is.

David, if you're going to post negative things about VSL' work, then please deal with facts (or identified opinions) - or else be prepared to receive a lecture from me if I think what you posted is blatantly wrong.

In this case it is indeed wrong, and it doesn't matter if you designed the bleedin' Taj Mahal. You called VSL's room anechoic, and that is not what it is. Nor are all their instruments what I would call close-miked, in fact I don't know if any of them are. Spot miked, maybe, but not close.

I have no problem with your criticizing their libraries, in fact I have criticisms myself - as I'm sure everyone does. But an anechoic chamber sounds totally different from VSL.

And the difference is important, by the way - it's not just a semantic difference. It has to do with their entire concept.



> The silent stage is not the only alternative to a huge reverberant hall, is it? If he is right why would he have to offer such poor logic? He is also wrong about not being able to get "usable" interval and repetition samples from more ambient samples, isnt he?




Has Dietz ever said that the *only* way to get usable interval and repetition samples is specifically from the silent chamber? He's a highly knowledgeable guy, and I doubt he'd say something like that when he knows perfectly well it isn't true.

But it's obvious that you do need a short reverb for that to work properly (unless EW has figured out a way around that in their new library that I don't know about). EVERY ONE OF THE LIBRARIES YOU'VE MENTIONED HAS SHORT REVERB! Not one of them has a 2.5 second hall reverb tail on it.

I also want to repeat this in the hope that you will hear: THERE IS MORE THAN ONE REASON FOR THE SILENT STAGE studio. Facilitating legato transitions and repetition samples is just one of the reasons. I explained the others in my last post: silence so there's no noise, and the early reflections of a stage without married reverb to facilitate flexibility. Silent Stage!

The concept is not obsolete, it just works better for some instruments than others.

And you can say the same about recording in a hall from multiple mic positions too: it works better for some things than others.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 17, 2010)

By the way, one of the things about VSL that you either like or dislike is that their samples are very clean. There's no noise on them, and they're tuned perfectly.

Their concept is that you can then add whatever you want, but you have a pristine recording to start with. Dietz has recommended using distortion many times, and I remember that he ran one of the pieces he engineered through speakers and re-miked them in a room.

Again, you can like that or not like it, but it's their concept and it still holds up.


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## Ed (Jan 17, 2010)

synergy543 @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> Ed @ Sun Jan 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Did LASS record in the equivalent of the "silent stage"? Did BBB record in the equivalent of the "silent stage"? Did HS record in the equivalent of the "silent stage"?
> ...



Still isnt a *silent stage,* so whats the point of the silent stage? Obviously has nothing to do with legato or repetitions samples, does it?

And what about Broadway Big Band? You think they have 4 mic positions of dry do you?


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## Ed (Jan 17, 2010)

KingIdiot @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> I was arguing the point made, and your title thread.



You should have checked, I never created this thread or decided on the thread title.

More accurately though if I was going to say the silent stage is an obsolete concept I would say that's correct in the context of recording legato and repetition samples. It is not only obsolete its irrelevant. There may be other reasons for the silent stage but legato and repetitions do not apply.



> I've adamantly said that you CAN record legato and repetitions in rooms and halls (probably better than has been done to date actually if you ask me, but I don't have LASS so maybe its done enough in that sucker)



So VSL were wrong, thankyou.



> but it wont hold up to VSL's standards. There's a precision they like and require. Something they can only get from the silent stage with minimized ERs.




VSL's "standards"? 

What does that mean exactly? Does it means that they think LASS's legato and repetition samples aren't as good as theirs?

All Dietz said was that you couldn't get USABLE results, I'm pretty sure he is disproved with BBB and LASS in that regard. To claim usable means something completely different to VSL is rather disingenuous when he said that to someone who just wanted to know why his VSL samples had to sound so close mic'd and dry. 



> false dilemma? are you [email protected]#king kidding me? It was on their minds from the get go, once the big hall went out the window, it became about overall concept. Whether they've reached that goal for you, not the discussion (or maybe it is)



Its a false dilemma in the same way that the only alternative to close dry mic's in a small room are not surround mics' in a cathedral.



> there ARE problems with recording repetitions and legatos in spaces, even rooms.



There may be problems but LASS and BBB seem to have figured it out and done it better with those instruments so clearly the silent stage has no bearing on getting good results with legato and repetition samples.



> . Calling him a liar because he's defending their ideals is wrong.



Never said he was a liar, I said he was wrong.


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## synergy543 (Jan 17, 2010)

Ed @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> Still isnt a *silent stage,* so whats the point of the silent stage? Obviously has nothing to do with legato or repetitions samples, does it?


Someone from VSL should really answer you but since your quoting me, I'll give it a shot.

Control.

I think is the same reason Doug bought EW studios. Now they can spend as much time as they want doing things their way. They do not need to cater to the whims of others. They own their own studio and their own recording gear so nothing is left up to chance. They can document positions of instruments and mics and come back at a later recording session and re-create the exact same setup. If you're investing millions of dollars and hundreds of hours. This approach makes very good sense.


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## Ed (Jan 17, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> Nor are all their instruments what I would call close-miked, in fact I don't know if any of them are. Spot miked, maybe, but not close.



Nick be reasonable never do people describe VSL's sound as being anything other than dry and close. In fact in the thread I am referring to Dietz is responding to someone who is remarking that his VSL sounds very close mic'd and dry. It dòJ   ¿ûZJ   ¿û[J   ¿û\J   ¿û]J   ¿û^J   ¿û_J   ¿û`J   ¿ûaJ   ¿ûbJ   ¿ûcJ   ¿ûdJ   ¿ûeJ   ¿ûfJ   ¿ûgJ   ¿ûhJ   ¿ûiJ   ¿ûjJ   ¿ûkJ   ¿ûlJ   ¿ûmJ   ¿ûnJ   ¿ûoJ   ¿ûpJ   ¿ûqJ   ¿ûrJ   ¿ûsJ   ¿ûtJ   ¿ûuJ   ¿ûvJ   ¿ûwJ   ¿ûxJ   ¿ûyJ   ¿ûzJ   ¿û{J   ¿û|J   ¿û}J   ¿û~J   ¿ûJ   ¿û€J   ¿ûJ   ¿û‚J   ¿ûƒJ   ¿û„J   ¿û…J   ¿û†J   ¿û‡J   ¿ûˆJ   ¿û‰J   ¿ûŠJ   ¿û‹J   ¿ûŒJ   ¿ûJ   ¿ûŽJ   ¿ûJ   ¿ûJ   ¿û‘J   ¿û’J   ¿û“J   ¿û”J   ¿û•J   ¿û–J   ¿û—J   ¿û˜J   ¿û™J   ¿ûšJ   ¿û›J   ¿ûœJ   ¿ûJ   ¿ûžJ   ¿ûŸJ   ¿û J   ¿û¡J   ¿û¢J   ¿û£J   ¿û¤J   ¿û¥J   ¿û¦J   ¿û§J   ¿û¨J   ¿û©J   ¿ûªJ   ¿û«J   ¿û¬J   ¿û­J   ¿û®J   ¿û¯J   ¿û°J   ¿û±J   ¿û²J   ¿û³J   ¿û´J   ¿ûµJ   ¿û¶J   ¿û·J   ¿û¸J   ¿û¹J   ¿ûºJ   ¿û»J   ¿û¼J   ¿û½J   ¿û¾J   ¿û¿J   ¿ûÀJ   ¿ûÁJ   ¿ûÂJ   ¿ûÃJ   ¿ûÄJ   ¿ûÅJ   ¿ûÆJ   ¿ûÇJ   ¿ûÈJ   ¿ûÉ              òJ   ¿ûËK   ¿ûÌK   ¿ûÍK   ¿ûÎK   ¿ûÏK   ¿ûÐK   ¿ûÑK   ¿ûÒK   ¿ûÓK   ¿ûÔK   ¿ûÕK   ¿ûÖK   ¿û×K   ¿ûØK   ¿ûÙK   ¿ûÚK   ¿ûÛK   ¿ûÜK   ¿ûÝK   ¿ûÞK   ¿ûßK   ¿ûàK   ¿ûáK   ¿ûâK   ¿ûãK   ¿ûäK   ¿ûåK   ¿ûæK   ¿ûçK   ¿ûèK   ¿ûéK   ¿ûêK   ¿ûëK   ¿ûìK   ¿ûíK   ¿ûîK   ¿ûïK   ¿ûðK   ¿ûñK   ¿ûòK   ¿ûóK   ¿ûôK   ¿ûõK   ¿ûöK   ¿û÷K   ¿ûøK   ¿ûùK   ¿ûúK   ¿ûûK   ¿ûüK   ¿ûýK   ¿ûþK   ¿ûÿK   ¿ü K   ¿üK   ¿üK   ¿üK   ¿üK   ¿üK   ¿üK   ¿üK   ¿üK   ¿ü	K   ¿ü
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## synergy543 (Jan 17, 2010)

Ed @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> Thats great, but my entire point from the very beginning was "*Obviously it has nothing to do with legato or repetitions samples, does it?"*
> 
> Do you finally agree with that?


Of course I would not agree with such an idiotic statement.

*VSL is "everything" about legato and repetitions* (after all, they started it all) and they record in their studio which they call "The Silent Stage". Silent as in "acoustically silent" (you don't hear cars, airplanes or subways passing by as you can in some sample libs). 

But Ed, your hung up over the name which just semanics. Its an acoustically designed studio not terribly unlike East West Studios (and possibly larger than EW Studios 2 and 3).

VSL Silent Stage






Read all about it *here.*


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## Dave Connor (Jan 17, 2010)

I deliver VSL stems (Strgs, WW's, Brass etc.) to various studios regularly as a part of my work. When they hear my mockups it's with my convolution solution. Then I'm asked to deliver the stems DRY. That way they can go right into the environment that they will ultimately be heard in. Whether it's film music or a pop record it's always the same process. 

So to say VSL's concept is a failure is a bit ironic since as Nick B has mentioned several times now It works very well and exactly as VSL planned. That doesn't mean other concepts don't work too but in the real world people have come to rely on VSL's unique ability to mesh with any environment.


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## rgames (Jan 17, 2010)

Wow - how did this get to 3 pages? Maybe I should read some of it...

I'll nominate this thread as most pointless I've ever encountered on VI-Control. Whoever the OP is, his intentions are obvious, why support it with more purile banter?

OK, maybe not most pointless. But surely top 5 

rgames.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 17, 2010)

> And I'll say it again, that may be, but the ability to do legato and repetition sampling has nothing to do with the silent stage. Yes or no?



No. For heaven's sake.

I don't know how else to explain it other than to repeat myself: how can you possibly have effective legato transitions if the first note is ringing while you slur up to the second one?


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## synergy543 (Jan 17, 2010)

Don't miss the opening curtains. :D 
I think that's what started this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNnrTNFWcsg


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## germancomponist (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Is the VSL "Silent Stage" a failed concept?*



Peter Alexander @ Mon Jan 18 said:


> On general principle, when you're doing repeated notes, and there's a lot of reverb (let's use that word), the pitches get swallowed.
> 
> It's an easy test. Try 16th notes at 90BPM repeating on the same pitch with whatever repeated note non-percussion articulation you want. Listen dry, then start adding in reverb. At what point do the pitches begin being swallowed by the reverb?
> 
> ...



Peter, this is true for all rooms where a real orchestra plays, too. But, for example, in Kontakt you can map the round robins not only into round robin groubs but also into *voice groups*. (What always is done at hihat samples)

When you do this the result is wonderful (by the correct voice group release-time-setting)


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## germancomponist (Jan 17, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Mon Jan 18 said:


> ...
> So me a solo string lib where you can hear the players fingers hitting the board.
> 
> So me a french horn lib that actually has a detailed lip slur in it.
> ...



Can you hear all this details in an orchestra hall when an orchestra is playing there a concert? o/~


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## Revson (Jan 17, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jan 18 said:


> No. For heaven's sake.
> 
> I don't know how else to explain it other than to repeat myself: how can you possibly have effective legato transitions if the first note is ringing while you slur up to the second one?


I'm confused by this. In a hall, the sustain preceding a portamento surely has a decay that reverberates through the portamento, no?


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## veetguitar (Jan 18, 2010)

I do agree that this is one of the most emotional threads ( in a bad way) that I have come across on this otherwise fantastic forum. I really wish that we could come back to some usefull discussion.
My points:
1. Although I have invested a lot in VSL in the past 18 months,it makes me happy that string sample libraries like HS raise the bar on certain aspects.
2. Considering the speed of progress this is normal. A library in the year 2010 has to be better than older stuff from years ago. It does not devalute the stuff that is available right now though. It just adds to the arsenal of the professional musician. However: Most of us cannot afford ALL the good stuff. Thats were the strong need for believe system around the libraries people own comes into the game. Wouldnt it be better to acknowledge that talent, skill, honing ones skills are much more important then anything else? 
3. The amount of national pride from Americans about products coming from their own country leaves me scratching my head. VSL are not able/willing to create even 5% of the hype that I can witness around here when it comes to HS. MIR has not received a fraction of the attention it deserves. 
4. The VSL approach is uncompromising. Nobody has ever done such detailed sampling. BUT: There approach is much more centered around classical music NOT film music in the sense of holliwood. I find it essential that Europe and other regions of the world find their own aesthetic approach. I would find it very depressing when the Holliwood way of doing thing is overly dominant. I dont dislike Hans Zimmer. But copying is simply disgusting. You will end up with the copy of a copy.
5. If I would take my favoured VSL demos like the string quartets from Beethoven, Ravel and Borodin or the Rite of Spring or the J.Williams demo by Jay Bacal: I dont think any other company could take the challenge of even come close to that level. And that has something to do with the Silent Stage and the way legato is implemented in VSL
6. You cannot judge the Silent Stage approach if you have not heard MIRand worked with it. Having done so for a couple of months, I can say that nothing comes close to that quality level. It also works perfectly with LASS, by the way. If you have samples with ER and no reverb tail like Lass, VSL etc. you can match your libraries in a way and in a qualtity not achievable otherwise.
7. The importance of unifying an arrangement with a reverb space and spatial imaging is - in my oppinion- crucial for achiving convincing results.
8. I am very happy that MIR gives me lots of options for rooms (more will come probably soon) It is just too predictable that everybody will jump on Holliwood Strings and sound the same. The Holliwood sound will loose its magic within 9 months.
9. In the output section of MIR I can select surround. It is just the push of a button away to go from a stereo mix to a 5 channel mix. I find that more then just remarkable.
greetings Veet


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## Revson (Jan 18, 2010)

veetguitar @ Mon Jan 18 said:


> I do agree that this is one of the most emotional threads ( in a bad way) that I have come across on this otherwise fantastic forum. I really wish that we could come back to some usefull discussion.
> My points:
> 1. Although I have invested a lot in VSL in the past 18 months,it makes me happy that string sample libraries like HS raise the bar on certain aspects.
> 2. Considering the speed of progress this is normal. A library in the year 2010 has to be better than older stuff from years ago. It does not devalute the stuff that is available right now though. It just adds to the arsenal of the professional musician. However: Most of us cannot afford ALL the good stuff. Thats were the strong need for believe system around the libraries people own comes into the game. Wouldnt it be better to acknowledge that talent, skill, honing ones skills are much more important then anything else?
> ...


Attributing any of this to Nationalism is pretty laughable (to the Americans in this crowd anyway).


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## veetguitar (Jan 18, 2010)

Quote: 
"Attributing any of this to Nationalism is pretty laughable (to the Americans in this crowd anyway)."
Well, thats how I feel about it. But it was only a sidenote. The other points are more important.


----------



## Pedro Camacho (Jan 18, 2010)

IMO: VSL "Silent Stage" is a VERY expensive concept.
Overpriced.


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## Stephen Baysted (Jan 18, 2010)

Ed, I think you're confusing two mutually exclusive concepts and perhaps allowing your frustration with difficulties you might experience in getting the sound from VSL that you want to cloud your judgement.

The 'Silent Stage' concept, as Nick and others have patiently pointed out, is that VSL constructed a recording facility which is as silent as possible - soundproofed and isolated and entirely insulated from the outside world; it makes it possible therefore for VSL to record without any extraneous noise entering the studio. They even cite the example of a helicopter hovering above their facility and not being detectable in the studio. 

The other points you make about VSL being bone dry are also confused; the samples aren't bone dry. This makes VSL highly versatile and eminently tweakable. Of course one has to invest more time in getting the sound one wants, but if you've used Vienna Suite with VSL, you'll see how their vision is completely joined up and logical. And as we know, MIR is another stage in that process.


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## nikolas (Jan 18, 2010)

Honestly I can picture 2 different statistics for the past week or so.

Time spent in VI forum: 90%
Time making music: 10%

Let's try to reverse that, shall we people?


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## Waywyn (Jan 18, 2010)

I think it is not an obsolete concept, since it got its advantages.

... but somehow I always have the feeling when using dry samples with e.g. Altiverb etc. it sounds like a dry sample run through an IR.

Even if it is well thought out concepts of IR processing, to me it still feels a dry sample run through an IR.

You necessarily don't hear the difference right away on a single instrument played solo, but in the full mix and the full orchestra or sections it makes a difference.

If I listen to a real orchestra recording (besides all the playing, just considering the sonic, the sound itself) there is so much happening in the room. We already got very close with simulating but if you record a signal in a real hall or with several mic positions, there is sooooo much more happening.

As a good comparison, you could use 3D and CG in general:
You can recreate an object in a room, you can calculate all the light, you can care about atmospheres and animate it etc. ... but in the end (at least in movies) it ALWAYS looks CG ... I almost know NO movie where you can't clearly see it. Avatar etc. all looks amazing, but it is still graphics and artificial.

So generally I like the idea to place a dry sample in every room you like, but you will always have the disadvantage in terms of warmth and especially depth.

At least this is my impression and feeling.


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## germancomponist (Jan 18, 2010)

What I always said when it comes to dry samples and convolution reverb. 

"It sounds like a dry sample run through an IR"!

Good example, Alex!


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## dcoscina (Jan 18, 2010)

Perhaps I'm a little naive but who the hell cares if it was a "failed concept" or not? How many people have used VSL on various projects ever since its inception? How many people have enjoyed its interval sampling which they pioneered if I'm not mistaken? 

This is actually rather odd. I recall when everyone was dissing EW and loving VSL and now, because of Hollywood Strings, everyone is fallen into bizarro world? Maybe I'm naive like I said but I used VSL for its winds and brass legatos, EW for its percussion and brass, SAM for brass and Symphobia, LASS for Strings and slide whistle (hah! just kidding), and Omnisphere for synth stuff and I like all of the libraries. Hell, I even use GPO4 in Sibelius 6 since I don't need ultra realism when I'm working on a concert piece. 

Sorry, this might be mean but this is a useless thread- nothing good can come of it.


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## dcoscina (Jan 18, 2010)

nikolas @ Mon Jan 18 said:


> Honestly I can picture 2 different statistics for the past week or so.
> 
> Time spent in VI forum: 90%
> Time making music: 10%
> ...



Thumbs waaay up!


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## midphase (Jan 18, 2010)

"IMO: VSL "Silent Stage" is a VERY expensive concept. 
Overpriced."

How do you mean that Pedro? Can you elaborate?


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## theheresy (Jan 18, 2010)

the only failed concept I'm seeing is this thread and Ed's ideas.

Ed you have been repeatedly owned by everyone here and proven wrong yet you keep churning out this vsl hatred fueled by an obvious agenda against VSL. It's so childish and not a single person here is buying it. You're really showing your age here, kid. 

VSL conquered market share and is one of the most respected and used sound companies in the world. Their full orchestral library IS the most respected and best as a whole in terms of realism (not necessarily usability or ease of use) so if that's a 'failed concept' to you then damn I wish I failed that hard in life but in fact the only failure here is your tired shtick. Why do you guys even dignify this boring drivel?
>8o


----------



## choc0thrax (Jan 18, 2010)




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## Jaap (Jan 18, 2010)

Respected and most used isn't equal to that they were right about the concept.

Not going into the subject itself (not enough experience with VSL and didn't read all the info regarding how the silent room was setup), but theheresy there is no need to take the whole conservation personal by calling Ed a kid etc.

No matter if he is right or wrong, he took a lot of time to share his view, quoted everyone nicely, gave his opinion etc and did it in a very civil way without getting personal.


----------



## Sovereign (Jan 18, 2010)

Speaking of which, I agree with Ed's main point too. 8)


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## Ed (Jan 18, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> > And I'll say it again, that may be, but the ability to do legato and repetition sampling has nothing to do with the silent stage. Yes or no?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You did read my question correctly, right?

According to your answer above LASS, Broadway Big Band, Westgate and Hollywood Strings shouldn't exist since they *didn't* record their repetition and legato samples in the silent stage. :o 




It is truly bizarre that so many people have completely missed my point and like stevenson-again has noted want to argue against a misrepresentation of my position instead. I'm glad that it seems some people *do *actually seem to understand what I'm talking about, in fact Sovereign several years ago said the EXACT same thing I initially did but no one questioned him about it, though that was on a different board. (I can post it if he doesn't mind)

I'm sure what I'm about to say will still be misunderstood by certain people again but I'll say it anyway.

The silent stage was made for at least two major reasons. One was the idea of giving people a mixing environment that allowed for maximum flexibility. The other reason is that they wanted to capture their performance elements like repetition and legato. I said that they initially implied and said that this was the only way it could be done, and people disputed that. However, Dietz said it again less than 5 months ago and Nick again said above that unless you record in the silent stage you cant record usable legato and repetition samples. Obviously that's wrong but if that's not what they MEAN that is what it sounds like to everyone else, but personally I don't see how you can say that with a straight face considering we have products that directly show that's wrong. Iò§   À×§   ÀØ§   ÀÙ§   ÀÚ§   ÀÛ§   ÀÜ§   ÀÝ§   ÀÞ§   Àß§   Àà§   Àá§   Àâ§   Àã§   Àä§   Àå§   Àæ§   Àç§   Àè§   Àé§   Àê§   Àë§   Àì§   Àí§   Àî§   Àï§   Àð§   Àñ§   Àò§   Àó§   Àô§   Àõ§   Àö§   À÷§   Àø§   Àù§   Àú§   Àû§   Àü§   Àý§   Àþ§   Àÿ§   À §   À§   À§   À§   À§   À§   À§   À§   À§   À	§   À
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I will also briefly point out that when Gigastudio 3 came with its new programming features and Kontakt came out with scripting with the ability to provide the same kind of repetition and legato programming that VSL had they *ALSO *stubbornly claimed their performance tool was still better, if people will recall. In a way with Gigastudio 3 they were correct, since with the Performance tool you could tweak several parameters easily (once it was set up). Of course most people didn't care about any of that and just wanted to play the damn thing without having to load up the Performance Tool alongside their sampler. Kontakt however was different, you could program every single feature the performance tool had, VSL knew this, but they still claimed their tool was better! I mention this because to me it shows a similar pattern of stubborn behaviour. 
*
And if someone replies by saying that VSL have good products they will have again missed the entire freakin' point ~o) :lol:*


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## dcoscina (Jan 18, 2010)

WHO CARES???
Really. Can you make music using VSL? Yes. Does it sound real? I think it does. So do many others. Does it matter what methodology was responsible for this? No.


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## Ed (Jan 18, 2010)

dcoscina @ Mon Jan 18 said:


> WHO CARES???
> Really. Can you make music using VSL? Yes. Does it sound real? I think it does. So do many others. Does it matter what methodology was responsible for this? No.



Do you remember how this got started? No?

Ok then! :lol: /\~O


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## Jaap (Jan 18, 2010)

dcoscina @ Mon Jan 18 said:


> WHO CARES???
> Really. Can you make music using VSL? Yes. Does it sound real? I think it does. So do many others. Does it matter what methodology was responsible for this? No.



I think it's actually a quite fascinating discussion. Never really thought about this and made me want to read about this actually :mrgreen:


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## theheresy (Jan 18, 2010)

How about this for a new thread idea (identical to Ed's thread)

BREAKING NEWS: 

TOYOTA IS AN EPIC FAILURE

In 1965 Toyota made a silly and insignificant mistake in one of their concepts. They are an EPIC FAILURE! This company will not be taken seriously by anyone! That's why I don't see a single Toyota on the street! ZOMG! 


Reality: VSL is as ubiquitous in the sample world as Toyota is in the car world.

If that to you is an "Epic Failure" then I seriously need to see your list of accomplishments because living in mom's basement and scathingly and baselessly deriding a company considered in the top 2 or 3 in the industry is really not all that impressive, at least to me. 

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Sovereign (Jan 18, 2010)

Straw man, Ed is not claiming VSL is a failure as a company. Obviously they are not. The silent stage is the topic of discussion so you are presenting a rather lame argument.


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## Ed (Jan 18, 2010)

theheresy @ Mon Jan 18 said:


> How about this for a new thread idea (identical to Ed's thread)
> 
> BREAKING NEWS:
> 
> ...



<snip>

How about this...

theheresy's reading comprehension is an EPIC FAIL.

See, you only embarrass yourself more by stubbornly refusing to understand me but I guess you wont feel embarrassment until you finally realise what I'm actually talking about, but I'm sure you wont allow yourself to get that far.


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## Ed (Jan 18, 2010)

Sovereign @ Mon Jan 18 said:


> Straw man, Ed is not claiming VSL is a failure as a company. Obviously they are not. The silent stage is the topic of discussion so you are presenting a rather lame argument.



Thanks. And for the record VSL as a company have done very well, without seeing their accounts of course. They've made some great products and came up with some awesome concepts like interval sampling. MIR and their mixing tools are probably the most interesting thing they've come up with in my opinion at least recently, since I believe however much you like the best VSL demos it could sound so much better had they been recorded differently. 

But yes, I do think they have and had some strange ideas and are stubborn about admitting some of their theories weren't exactly correct.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jan 18, 2010)

EW at one point didn't believe you could do legato as well. So..I mean, we're talking about a 10 year difference. It is possible that due to programming techniques and power, that you simply could not do legato without a silent stage? Think of computers now, and then.

Anyway, this thread was never for Ed's point. That is why it's going so long. This thread was simply the question "Is the VSL silent stage a failed concept?" which does not necessarily direct Ed's point at all.

And the answer to that is no, it isn't a failed concept.


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## Sovereign (Jan 18, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Mon Jan 18 said:


> EW at one point didn't believe you could do legato as well. So..I mean, we're talking about a 10 year difference. It is possible that due to programming techniques and power, that you simply could not do legato without a silent stage? Think of computers now, and then.


Not so much, since it's the recorded ambience which makes all the difference in the end. They could have sampled strings in a studio environment, and Giga 3 with their performance tool would have done the job just as well. There is not much magic per se in they way the transitions are recorded and played back.

As for EW not seeing much in legato recordings, I certaionly remember either Doug or Nick claiming that the VSL transitions were not sounding real. Heck I even had a discussion with him on this over at NS. Obviously, such statements were nothing more than damage control or just plain denial of the obvious. A company does not like it when it is outwitted by a competitor.

That said, I am going to get me some HS.


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## Ed (Jan 18, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Mon Jan 18 said:


> EW at one point didn't believe you could do legato as well.



As Sovereign said theres even several comments I remember reading from Nick that said he didnt really *like *it! This was when he was trying to defend QLegato, I can find it on the forum if anyone is interested in loling. Clearly it was denial in a similar way as I'm talking about VSL's denial here.



> So..I mean, we're talking about a 10 year difference. It is possible that due to programming techniques and power, that you simply could not do legato without a silent stage? Think of computers now, and then.



As Sovereign touched on, back then the only reason why you couldn't do it was because...

1. It took a long time to record all those samples, you had to edit them and program them all. 

2. You had to have the performance tool. 

Then Giga 3 came out and Kontakt scripting... so at that point the only thing stopping developers was the time and effort it took to do point 1. Yet, VSL still denied Kontakt scripts were as good as their Performance Tool. Really though, people didnt even care that Giga 3 couldn't do everything the performance tool did (but Kontakt could do), they just wanted to be able to use it without all the fiddly rubbish that came with using the Performance Tool, which was necessary at one point but not at that point. Originally I remember when people were wondering if it was even possible for others to come out with similar performance features because they wouldn't have the silent stage. 



> And the answer to that is no, it isn't a failed concept.



I really don't remember if I ever actually said it was, but the concept I would have been referring to was the idea that it needed to be recorded in the "silent stage" in order to get usable legato and repetition samples. 

Evidently that's disproven. And frankly the fact that LASS apparently responds well to MIR means that maybe the other "mixing" reasons keep getting less and less relevant as well, except for a few picky people. I think thats only going to become more and more obvious as more and more people start using 3rd party samples with MIR and more products like BBB, LASS and HS come out.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 18, 2010)

> I don't know how else to explain it other than to repeat myself: how can you possibly have effective legato transitions if the first note is ringing while you slur up to the second one?
> I'm confused by this. In a hall, the sustain preceding a portamento surely has a decay that reverberates through the portamento, no?



I'm sorry, that came out wrong. What I meant was that the first note's reverb gets cut off when you switch to the transition sample. Brain fart.

It occurs to me that you actually could jump to the release sample (with the reverb tail) and play it simultaneously with the transition sample. That would be interesting.



> HS has recorded multiple tempo transitions



LASS has those too, adjustable with a slider, and it's a great feature.



> A library in the year 2010 has to be better than older stuff from years ago



No question, we're into the next generation of strings.



> The amount of national pride from Americans about products coming from their own country leaves me scratching my head



I haven't seen that *at all* Veet.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 18, 2010)

Ed. Quoting myself:



> Has Dietz ever said that the *only* way to get usable interval and repetition samples is specifically from the Silent Chamber? He's a highly knowledgeable guy, and I doubt he'd say something like that when he knows perfectly well it isn't true.
> 
> But it's obvious that you do need a short reverb for that to work properly (unless EW has figured out a way around that in their new library that I don't know about). EVERY ONE OF THE LIBRARIES YOU'VE MENTIONED HAS SHORT REVERB! Not one of them has a 2.5 second hall reverb tail on it.




*whimper*


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## Ed (Jan 18, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jan 18 said:


> Ed. Quoting myself:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nick, 

You still haven't read my post correctly. 

*whimper*

o-[][]-o


*EDIT*: and btw the response you gave to my earlier question answers your question above. If you never really meant what you said, then maybe Dietz never really meant it either. Maybe both of you don't even know you are doing it, but your answer only helped prove my point especially since you don't seem to have noticed yet!


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## Sovereign (Jan 18, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jan 18 said:


> It occurs to me that you actually could jump to the release sample (with the reverb tail) and play it simultaneously with the transition sample. That would be interesting.


I can attest this works.  Though depending on how one records the intervals, the sustain release trail could be contained in the interval sample/target note and therefore not pose a problem (like VSL does). This method would require recording intervals and at least some seconds of the target note, at various speeds for best results.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 18, 2010)

Ed.

What IS your point? That Dietz is a liar? That the Silent Stage is a bogus concept?

Please spell it out, because this is really tiresome. At this point I have no idea which post you're talking about.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 18, 2010)

Sovereign, does VSL do that? I mean mix in the sustain release with the transition sample?


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jan 18, 2010)

His point was saying that they were wrong in saying that *USABLE* legato/repetitions cannot be done without a silent stage. 

I think it's more of what was usable to them.


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## Sovereign (Jan 18, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jan 18 said:


> Sovereign, does VSL do that? I mean mix in the sustain release with the transition sample?


It works a bit different. VSL's technique is quite simple though once you understand it. They fade the starting note out, then fade into a recording which has the target note which consists of the legato transition (which is like between 20-40ms at the beginning) and the remainder of the target sustain note. This (I guess) is a real recording, with the note chopped just before the interval plays. The intervals are not "layered" below the target sustains or anything (which would be another technique which also works). 

It is imo the best technique since it captures the full note that is being played into, but requires vast amounts of recording time due to having to record every target interval+sustain in full. I suppose that is the reason why the first VSL legato strings only had short (2s I think) legato notes.

There is though no reason that this technique would not work with wetter samples, in fact I found out it works pretty well, though I can imagine a very wet hall would be tougher to edit.


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## Ed (Jan 18, 2010)

*@Nick*: I've spelled it out so many times and you can't seem to see it. 

All I'll say now is that when I made the statement that _the silent stage doesn't have anything to do with legato and repetition sampling_, you told me I was wrong then started telling me how you can't record intervals in any ambient environment. 

Now, the fact that you can't see your response to my question as saying/implying that you cant record repetitions and interval legato samples unless its in the silent stage shows me why you can't see how VSL used to do the same kind of stuff. 

As I've been saying since the start, VSL gave the impression that these performance techniques could not be done unless it was in their silent stage. You say they didn't say that, lots of people have, and yet you yourself just did the same thing just now and didn't even realise you did it. Imagine if your answer was given back when VSL first arrived, would someone not be right in assuming from your answer that you believe the silent stage to be essential for these performance samples and that the silent stage was built that way to record them? Of course they would. 



Nathan Allen Pinard @ Mon Jan 18 said:


> His point was saying that they were wrong in saying that *USABLE* legato/repetitions cannot be done without a silent stage.
> 
> I think it's more of what was usable to them.



Exactly... 

To quote myself. 

...I can't be certain just how well MIR would work had VSL recorded their instruments in, for example, the same studio as LASS but what I do know is that every time they have implied or said that the silent stage was necessary for their performance features this was not correct and any attempt to say otherwise is just stubbornly refusing to admit that it can.* Any attempt to say that close mic'ing it makes it more "detailed" is just stating the obvious since that goes for any recording, that doesn't mean it can't be done, or done well, just that VSL's OCDof what counts as "usable" isnt what everyone else thinks as "usable".*


(emphasis is mine... uh... extra)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 18, 2010)

Oy gevalt. Four pages of crap just to say that Dietz was being too literal. This is about as silly as all the grief Al Gore continues to get for saying "I created the internet" when he meant "I championed the internet" in passing during that interview with Wolf Blitzer.

***

Sovereign, my original understanding of the way VSL works was right - I thought maybe you knew something I didn't. To be clear, the reason their technique of fading out the source note works is that there's no long reverb being cut off. If they recorded in a hall then you'd hear the reverb shut off right away and it wouldn't sound good.

So what I'm saying is that it should be possible to crossfade a hall recording to the transition sample if you also include the original reverb - either by mixing it in with the transition samples or by triggering the release samples at the same time.

I think you understood that....but what is the experience you have to attest to it working?


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## Ed (Jan 18, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jan 18 said:


> Oy gevalt. Four pages of crap just to say that Dietz was being too literal.



Well it is hardly my fault if people decided to question my initial point and then I spend pages trying to explain to them they are misrepresenting what I'm saying.
_
Ooga booga! Someone sounds like they are saying nasty things about VSL! I must retort!_

So you accept VSL were wrong to imply you couldn't record usable repetition samples and interval legato samples without the silent stage? 

I mean that's the entire gosh darned point of this whole thing.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 18, 2010)

Ed, I think the understanding has always been that you need short reverb for recorded legato transitions, not that VSL's Silent Stage is the only space on the planet that produces short reverb!

But now I'm curious how EW did it. Hopefully I can ask NP or Thomas tonight.


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## Ed (Jan 18, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jan 18 said:


> Ed, I think the understanding has always been that you need short reverb for recorded legato transitions, not that VSL's Silent Stage is the only space on the planet that produces short reverb!



Then the ability to do legato and repetition sampling has nothing to do with the silent stage...

... jeez... why was that so hard? You said I was wrong when I said that before, if you recall.

*EDIT:*
And no, that wasn't always the understanding. Otherwise people wouldnt have asked VSL guys like Dietz why their samples had to be so closed mic'd and dry sounding and he responds saying that's the only way you can get the performance features... when actually BBB and LASS show you can actually move the mic away a little bit considering BBB had 4 mic positions 'n' all... which is rather counter to the whole idea of the silent stage when you give people 4 times the ability to choose how much ambient space they want built into their samples.


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## Dr.Quest (Jan 18, 2010)

Most - useless - thread - EVER!
Unbelievable.
J


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jan 18, 2010)

I think I speak for everyone when I say...


FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-


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## Sovereign (Jan 19, 2010)

Hello Nick,



Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jan 18 said:


> If they recorded in a hall then you'd hear the reverb shut off right away and it wouldn't sound good.


I don't see how the hall matters. Getting the verb to disappear would occur only if the cross-fade is done improperly. Since we're talking a few ms here this is not going to audible based on my experience if the editing is tight. At best you would hear a small dip with the legato transition being faded in too late or too soon. With careful editing there is no audible disjunction. 

Ambience would not really play a role here, if you edit the cross-fade improperly you would also get inconsistencies with dry samples. 



> So what I'm saying is that it should be possible to crossfade a hall recording to the transition sample if you also include the original reverb - either by mixing it in with the transition samples or by triggering the release samples at the same time.


Well yes, all samples need to be just as "wet" obviously to get consistency, but that is just the point. If the material is consistent there is no reason why wet legato samples would not work with VSL's own technique.



> I think you understood that....but what is the experience you have to attest to it working?


Asside from editing quite a bit of custom legatos for VI Pro which was not recorded "dry" but in a studio hall, I've also edited a set of custom violin recordings including legato transitions which were recorded in a rather big studio hall. They have plenty of ambience, and the legato works fine.


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