# Copy protection - a thought experiment



## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 20, 2010)

Okay, we all know that there's no such thing as an uncrackable copy protection scheme today. But let's say that at some point in the future there is one.

So in that world it's impossible to crack software and copy files illegally. But is there a theoretical way to prevent media (music, video) from being played if it's been re-digitized in real time?

Would it be possible to embed an inaudible code that survived analog transfers?

Or is that shaking your own hand.


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## RiffWraith (Jul 20, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jul 21 said:


> Okay, we all know that there's no such thing as an uncrackable copy protection scheme today. But let's say that at some point in the future there is one.
> 
> So in that world it's impossible to crack software and copy files illegally. But is there a theoretical way to prevent media (music, video) from being played if it's been re-digitized in real time?
> 
> ...



If you embed an inaudible code, then what's the point? If there is such a code in the audio stream, and nobody can hear it once the source is re-digitized in real time, is there a reason for it to be there, other than making the source material traceable? And in mass-production you wouldn't do code and/or watermarking, as you do not know where the source is going to wind up. Your house, my house, who's?

The real deal is to embed an inaudible_ signal _ into the source/original. This signal would be inaudible while listening off of the source (file, CD, etc), but audible on any copy - regardless of transfer process. 

Cheers.


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## wst3 (Jul 20, 2010)

I think that transferring the program from digital to analog to digital would almost certainly defeat copy protection, and it would almost certainly distort (make useless) any kind of watermark. And even if the process itself did not do it, it would be reasonable to filter it out during one of the transfers.

Sadly, as long as there are people trying to create copy protection schemes there will be people trying to crack them.

Really sad... when it should be nothing more than respect for other people's efforts!

Still, neat question!


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## Narval (Jul 20, 2010)

RiffWraith @ Tue Jul 20 said:


> The real deal is to embed an inaudible_ signal _ into the source/original. This signal would be inaudible while listening off of the source (file, CD, etc), but audible on any copy - regardless of transfer process.


I don't see how one can beat that. As Nick put it - it's uncrackable. (almost heard Natalie Cole's voice singing it) :D


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 20, 2010)

> If there is such a code in the audio stream, and nobody can hear it once the source is re-digitized in real time, is there a reason for it to be there, other than making the source material traceable?



I was thinking it would make it trackable, i.e. you could collect every time it was transferred.

But I suppose the whole audio file itself is a code.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 20, 2010)

wst3, I don't understand how CP works, but it doesn't seem theoretically impossible to produce a scheme that can't be defeated.

However, once something is copied to analog...


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## midphase (Jul 20, 2010)

Well, a simple way to defeat iTunes copy protection is to burn a CD and then convert the CD back to a non-protected format.

Ultimately the best way to defeat piracy is to make it a bigger PITA to pirate than to go legit. For example, personally I think it's a bigger PITA to try and download some bad quality bittorrent movie than to go over to Best Buy and pick up a DVD for $5.99


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## MacQ (Jul 20, 2010)

The digital-to-analog-to-digital watermark already exists, and works quite well for a few generations of copies. It's been developed and is in use by Destiny Media for their PlayMPE service (http://plaympe.com/v4/). Basically it's a digital distribution service for radio, so now the labels can push new releases digitally (and securely to that specific station's ID, with the embedded watermark). Cuts a HUGE amount of the postal budget of any label trying to service radio. 

Anyway, my friend Jeff used to work there, and he showed me the technology in action. It works, and makes things traceable. In this case, there's some arrangement in place that if a specific radio ID shows up in a leaked MP3 or something, that station (or that program director) is held responsible, and can potentially be sued by the record label. Sort of the way sample library watermarking works, really, in terms of that personalized deterrent.

~Stu


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## gsilbers (Jul 20, 2010)

midphase @ Tue Jul 20 said:


> Well, a simple way to defeat iTunes copy protection is to burn a CD and then convert the CD back to a non-protected format.
> 
> Ultimately the best way to defeat piracy is to make it a bigger PITA to pirate than to go legit. For example, personally I think it's a bigger PITA to try and download some bad quality bittorrent movie than to go over to Best Buy and pick up a DVD for $5.99



+1

also in the software world.


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## wst3 (Jul 21, 2010)

C M Dess @ Wed Jul 21 said:


> Well if we lived in a world that supplied money to people who work on software at a base salary provided by the government, the entire topic would be less relevant. <remainder snipped for brevity>



I mean no disrespect, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that was so... something or other that I have to ask - do you really believe all of that?

I believe that information wants to be free, and that one can not privatize nature, but, the thing that makes capitalism thrive is the opportunity to better one's self. The factor that cripples capitalism is plain old human greed... some people are simply not satisfied with tremendous wealth, they have to have it all.

Other philosophies also have their strengths and weaknesses, but I'll bet on capitalism. It's a personal choice, of course, but if I can find a way to support my family and stop worrying about the bills, well, I'll be happy. (Oh, well all of that a couple more guitars<G>!)

Bringing this back around to the OP... IF people would show respect for others - and that is not a capitalist vs socialist issue - then a lot of problems surrounding intellectual property rights would simply vanish. But that seems to be a lost concept as more and more people grow up believing that they are entitled to whatever it is that they want. This entitlement mindset is as damaging as the rampant greed on the other end of the spectrum.

Copy protection is created by people, and there will always be someone that can defeat it, whether they are smarter, or just plain lucky. It's a game to some, and as long as there are people creating security measures there will be people trying to defeat them.

Same goes for pirates. As long as there are people trying to earn a living through a creative endeavor there will be people trying to rip them off, out of laziness or greed or stupidity - matters not the motivation.

If we could just reduce the number of pirates to a level that does not discourage creative folks, well, that's be half the battle.


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## Narval (Jul 21, 2010)

wst3 @ Wed Jul 21 said:


> IF people would show respect for others ... then a lot of problems surrounding intellectual property rights would simply vanish.


You nailed it. Respect is the key word. And this is far bigger than the topic here. When everyone will respect everyone else, that will be the end of most problems that we humans have invented against ourselves.

Unfortunately we will not see that happen during our lifetime. The best we can do is to treat the other person as we would like to be treated, and to pass this attitude to our children - by word, and by daily example.

As Gandhi said, “Be the change you want to see in the world.”


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## Mike Connelly (Jul 21, 2010)

While in theory, anything is crackable, there have been some CP schemes for software that have gone a long time without being cracked.

Seems like it mainly comes down to how much work it is to crack and whether the people doing it consider it to be worth it.

Along those lines, I've heard that a major software update to iLok in development ("iLok 2"?). Should be interesting to see what that is, and whether the user experience is any different.

For mainstream media, I don't think the analog hole is ever going to get closed effectively, and it seems like even in the digital domain pretty much any music or movies can be copied.


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## clarkcontrol (Jul 21, 2010)

If I may introduce 2 new key words: Convenience and Accountability

iTunes is a great example of how a legitimate download service can survive in a bit torrent world. People just need the legitimate method to become more convenient than the illegal version and problem solved.

Copy protection is a failed experiment. As previously stated, there will always be a crack for every legitimate software, rip for every movie, etc.

Just make it easier to get it legally and you'll see way less piracy.

RE: Information.

It seems that anonymous sharing of movies, music, uploads of any kind are the problem. If we take out the anonymous and attach a bank account then we effectively stop the entire thing in its tracks. For instance, if YouTube required a real name and credit card/account to upload material then as soon as the material was deemed protected then the RIAA shoots them with a theft fine. 

When you get stopped by a cop you can't say "I was just keeping up with traffic" or "I had no idea I was speeding" its just a fine, an automatic debit authorized by the offender when they clicked "agree" on the terms of use right before uploading.

Just make everybody liable for mass distributing material. P2P services need to do the same. Everything needs a trace, along with signed consent to fine their account if you're going to share your hard drive contents with the world.

Of course, right now, everyone wants to be "protected" from their own behavior. Privacy trumps liability. Access to copyrighted information trumps accountability.

And we're not talking a reporter protecting their anonymous sources. We're talking copyrighted material.

Clark


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 21, 2010)

Well sure, the world would be better off if everyone just loved each other and didn't commit crimes.

In the meantime it's a safe bet that copy protection technology will advance a lot during our lifetimes, and schemes for locking down files are going to become more advanced. That was the reason for my original question.

I *want* to believe that making things available cheaply is going to solve the problem, but I'm skeptical. Would the record industry still be firing on all cylinders if iTunes had come along before illegal file sharing? Notice that there are already illegal download sites for iPhone software that costs a poxy dollar.

MacQ's post is very interesting. I wonder whether that same kind of thing could be adapted to trigger a royalty assessment somewhere along the line - whether it's when it goes across the internet or any other way.

In other words you're *encouraging* downloads, not discouraging them.


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## Mike Connelly (Jul 21, 2010)

Interesting idea, but if youtube and others were to do that, the number of submissions would dwindle and they'd end up shutting down.

I'm not sure what would be the incentive for them to institute a policy like that, or a way to force them to do it. P2P even more so since the programmers can be anonymous and the servers overseas. If you believe that uncrackable copy protection is impossible, I don't see how you could think that imposing real identities onto all methods of file sharing would be possible either.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 21, 2010)

Mike, I *don't* think it's impossible. And the incentive isn't for YouTube, it's for all the industries that are going to disappear like the record industry pretty much has because of illegal filesharing!

CM, we're simply not going to see a socialized software industry happen in the US. You'll notice that just setting up a public insurance company was met with insanity.

But to be honest, I don't think Spectrasonics or EastWest or for that matter any record company would be better off run by the government - and that's coming from someone who tends to be pretty liberal.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 21, 2010)

Mike, I *don't* think it's impossible. And the incentive isn't for YouTube, it's for all the industries that are going to disappear like the record industry pretty much has!

CM, we're simply not going to see socialized software happen in the US. You'll notice that just setting up a public insurance company was met with insanity.

But to be honest, I don't think Spectrasonics or EastWest or for that matter any record company would be better off run by the government - and that's coming from someone who tends to be pretty liberal.


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## Mike Connelly (Jul 21, 2010)

Nick, I was responding to Clark, I should have quoted his message. Sorry for the confusion.


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## clarkcontrol (Jul 21, 2010)

Mike,

I totally agree, mainly because the cat is already out of the bag.

Apple managed to set up a closed system, totally vertical: software, hardware, distribution and even though they make the rules it is secure.

Multinational systems (p2p etc.) need to be bottlenecked at the isp level in america IMO. The continental US is one of the larger markets and restricting the usage of these things will cause content distributors to modify if they want access.

Of course this implies legislation (and the "bigger government" argument from the conservatives) but until the gov puts the rights of ownership above the "freedoms" of the infrastructure (speed limit analogy again etc.) then we are all at risk.

Clark


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## TuwaSni (Jul 21, 2010)

There are watermarking methods that are robust enough to survive D/A and reverse A/D. There are no schemes out there which would òó0   ÝKÚó0   ÝKÛó0   ÝKÜó0   ÝKÝó0   ÝKÞó0   ÝKßó0   ÝKàó0   ÝKáó0   ÝKâó0   ÝKãó0   ÝKäó0   ÝKåó0   ÝKæó0   ÝKçó0   ÝKèó0   ÝKéó0   ÝKêó0   ÝKëó0   ÝKìó0   ÝKíó0   ÝKîó0   ÝKïó0   ÝKðó0   ÝKñó0   ÝKòó0   ÝKóó0   ÝKôó0   ÝKõó0   ÝKöó0   ÝK÷ó0   ÝKøó0   ÝKùó0   ÝKúó0   ÝKûó0   ÝKüó0   ÝKýó0   ÝKþó0   ÝKÿó0   ÝL ó0   ÝLó0   ÝLó0   ÝLó0   ÝLó0   ÝLó0   ÝLó0   ÝLó0   ÝLó0   ÝL	ó0   ÝL
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## clarkcontrol (Jul 21, 2010)

Tuwa & Nick,

This has already been done.

Failed. It was called SCMS=Serial Copy Management System circa late 80's with DAT machines. All DAT machines would recognize master/copy status and allow/disallow accordingly.

Sony tried it in 2002 with CD's (remember the Celine Dion debacle?) that seriously corrupted PCs.

Think about it: I can go buy a kitchen knife and kill someone with it. We don't figure out ways of making it impossible for people to kill each other with eating utensils. We don't put governors on our cars to limit the general population from driving over 55 mph.

The laws need to change.

Clark

PS just realized I have strayed a bit OT sorry


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 21, 2010)

SCMS didn't work because you just move a DIP switch and it goes away or run the signal through a de-SCMSifier. And I only vaguely remember the CD problems.

But I'm not sure I agree with the kitchen knife analogy. If there were a way to track every time a song got transferred over the internet and calculate a royalty to be paid out of a universal arts tax, for example, I think that would be a good solution. The tax could be part of the fee you pay for internet access.


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## clarkcontrol (Jul 22, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jul 21 said:


> If there were a way to track every time a song got transferred over the internet and calculate a royalty to be paid out of a universal arts tax, for example, I think that would be a good solution. The tax could be part of the fee you pay for internet access.



I remember when the government put a tax on blank cassettes for this very reason. Around late 70's?


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## Narval (Jul 22, 2010)

*India / Gandhi OT*



C M Dess @ Wed Jul 21 said:


> And what did Ghandi do to change the world....it's more greedy than ever, now india is going capitalist.


India has a very special type of capitalism, shaped by the way people there treat each other. You have to spend some time there to understand it.

Gandhi, among other things, has shown the capacity of the individual to dodge abuse, by making plain clear that the only power someone or something has over you is the power that you grant them. Deny them that power, convince others to deny them that power, and the world will change. But it needs to start with you BEING that change. Otherwise, words will do nothing.

Sorry for the OT, carry on.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 22, 2010)

I'm not a scientist, so I don't know how to make happen, but I am praying for a watermarking/copyrighting solution that really works. Screw this 'new business model' noise, to me it's all about justifying the illegal use of media that someone hasn't paid for.

I know ASCAP has moved to some sort of watermarking/fingerprinting method. I hope it's a first step.


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