# Descriptive words for directors and composers



## rJames (Feb 11, 2007)

What words do directors (or music supervisors/editors) use when talking about what they need musically for a scene?

What words would you like them to use?

I'm talking about the emotional content. But they are not necessarily emotions, like "heroic" or "majestic" but words that convey a distinct emotional context.

e.g. 
heroic
uplifting
romantic
intimate
warm
tragic
suspensful
haunting
whimsical
innocent...

And also, how much of the time do they describe it in terms of another movie or piece of music?


----------



## Brian Ralston (Feb 12, 2007)

redleicester @ Mon Feb 12 said:


> Banging my head against a brick wall at the moment as I have just had a mail from the director of my current feature saying, and I quote:
> 
> "Body scene - love the vibe here, great music. However could you make it less urban and more rural"
> 
> Am now soooooo tempted to find a sample library of cows mooing and sheep bleating.... ~o)



So...no Stylus RMX or loops...or beats then. :wink:


----------



## rJames (Feb 12, 2007)

redleicester @ Mon Feb 12 said:


> However could you make it less urban and more rural"



Forgive my seriousness...

I'm trying to put together a list of words that might communicate to "both sides"

Urban is (in my estimation) a genre. So, he's looking for less hip beat. Maybe slightly more orchestral? (also genre)


----------



## Evan Gamble (Feb 12, 2007)

Unless you are looking for a paint by numbers "menu" score than I wouldn’t worry about specific descriptive English words Ron.

I mean you don't want to lay down a list of 300 words and have the director say.."Hmm I'll take...THAT ONE!"

People interpret word very differently. I find all it really takes is a good discussion of shooting the shit and comparing of other movies/music/art/whatever the muse might be. Than just go do your own thing.


----------



## tobyond (Feb 12, 2007)

My favorite was," Make it like Dances With Wolves, but without that Orchestra stuff"

~o)


----------



## midphase (Feb 12, 2007)

I think that trying to describe emotions with words is a futile quest. I much prefer to cite examples to directors when discussing musical needs.

For example, on a recent meeting, the director told me that he was going for a 6th Sense vibe. No problem, I understand that. If he would have said "mysterious, scary, and thematic" it would have been a bit too broad for me to really lock in to what he wants.

I will also use movie titles to narrow down style. I will start with a wide range "are you going more for an orchestral score like LOTR or an electronic score like Memento"

Then if he says orchestral, I might be like "do you mean like a big orchestra like Pirates, or more intimate like The Others" and so on until I narrow down 2 or 3 movies which the director really liked the music in.

I know a lot of composers don't like to do that because they feel that (god forbid) their score will sound derivative of another. The truth (according to Kays) is that there is not anything original left in composition, everything has pretty much been done (no matter how unique you think you might be thinking) and the best that we can all settle for is to "invent" new hybrids (like polka and John Williams).


----------



## John DeBorde (Feb 12, 2007)

adding to what midphase has said - which is all excellent info about narrowing down a stylistic window - you really have to work with a director to develop a common language.

Some of them are musically versed, and can direct you using the appropriate musical terminology (rare), some are open to being educated about what certain terms mean (rare), and others will just spit out any old word, and it's your job to figure out what the heck they mean by it (most common in my experience). ie - one directors "spooky" might be another's "eerie".

This is what I mean by common language, and it is usually arrived at by trial and error, and this is all part of building a working relationship with someone. The good news is, once you've established this, working with them again usually is much easier. 

and as a side note, if they ask for "something new & fresh, that's never been heard before" they usually don't mean that. IME that means they want something that sounds exactly like whatever is happening in pop music at that moment. I actually laughed at a potential client once when he told me that was what they were looking for ( I inadvertantly thought he was joking, it was so cheezball -oops!). I don't recommend you do that; needless to say, i didn't get that gig!

-John


----------



## JonFairhurst (Feb 12, 2007)

I think that having a list of these words is very helpful - not for the meta-style, but for moments in the spotting session.

Say there's a woman waiting by a bus stop. It's late. She keeps checking her watch. A man walks around the corner. What's the emotional intent?

Is he threatening or menacing? Is he mysterious? Is the mood unsettled? Are we relieved, since her husband has finally arrived? Is this a magical chance encounter? A long lost son? Is the man about to be embarrassed, since he told her he would be out of town?

We may or may not want to telegraph the feelings of this moment, but having words to describe the feelings of the moment could be really helpful.

The next step would be to develop a list of compositional and orchestration devices that work for such a moment or scene. Not that we want to find the one melody and voicing for mystery that we simply plug in, but that we want to develop a wide vocabulary for expressing mystery.


----------



## rJames (Feb 12, 2007)

I was going to write a response to Evan and I got caught up on the phone.

I'm looking for these words for a search engine for cues that are in the back catalog.

I know that none of use can compete with music libraries in a large way. 

But, just as these fast computers, samples and the internet have enabled us to compete in a niche, I believe each of us will have our catalogues on-line in the future.

I've been compiling a list and wondered how it compared with how people in the real world communicate about music.

I am aware that mostly it is done by; "batman-like" or "sixth sense". 

And I am not talking about using words if you have a picture in front of you.

Many composers "give away" their music to libraries for a pittance.

The composer of the future will have one more hat to wear (to survive). And software that is ubiquitous like the software that houses this forum, will be the key.

Once their are enough of us, we will go the way of the live orchestra. Only the marketers will be left.

Clients only need to find one cue. Help them find the right one and they stop searching. (you get a payday)

I just wanted to hear how people are communicating about music.


----------



## Thonex (Feb 12, 2007)

oh... I thought this was a thread to describe directors and composers.. like:

Jerks,
Wannabees
Posers
Egomanics
Talentless


:mrgreen:


----------



## rJames (Feb 12, 2007)

thanks, I'll jot those down.


----------



## redleicester (Feb 12, 2007)

rJames @ Mon Feb 12 said:


> redleicester @ Mon Feb 12 said:
> 
> 
> > However could you make it less urban and more rural"
> ...



Seriousness forgiven James - and in all seriousness back, therein lies the problem - the current rhythm is purely on orchestral / world percussion, there isn't an ounce of electronica in it.... :(


----------



## rJames (Feb 12, 2007)

redleicester,
Yes, of course. I don't pretend to be able to diagnose from here. I was just trying to put the conversation back onto definitions and communication.

And hoping that you would share what you have decided he means.

You've got to do something to your cue. What are you going to do?


----------



## JonFairhurst (Feb 12, 2007)

redleicester @ Mon Feb 12 said:


> the current rhythm is purely on orchestral / world percussion, there isn't an ounce of electronica in it.... :(


I wonder if the world percussion is the issue. Depending on how it's used, the director might associate ethnic beats with immigration or cosmopolitanism. By rural, the director 1.34 1.38
18:40:01 6 312 0.93 1.30 1.35
18:50:01 4 325 1.48 1.47 1.42
19:00:01 17 329 4.42 2.84 1.90
19:10:01 6 336 1.77 1.92 1.80
19:20:01 4 325 1.09 1.51 1.64
19:30:01 7 316 0.89 1.23 1.46
19:40:01 6 332 1.12 1.23 1.35
19:50:01 7 321 1.82 1.6


----------



## Hannes_F (Feb 12, 2007)

Hi,

I am quite new in that genre but have made an interesting experience I would like to share.

I am in the process of scoring a movie and the director and me have tried quite a lot of communication methods so far.

First the director gave me some music he liked for the beginning. Problem was that they were very different, so it took a time until I understood what the common element was that he liked. It was the fact that they were straight in rhythm.

We tried him singing something for me and I wrote something similar.

We discussed about several versions that I did. Discussed rhythms, instruments, dynamics. It turned out that when a musician and a non-musician (but highly artistic person) discuss about music there is very much room for misunderstanding. I really tried to fulfill his wishes but somehow it did not really work.

Finally we found a communication method that seems to work for us: I interviewed him in detail what the _characters feel_ in every moment. With other words we stopped talking about the music but talked about the film, the emotions, the twists. Then I forgot everything that we had come up so far and wrote from scratch what I really felt would fit.

I was not at home when the director called back and so I have still a multi-minutes praise on my answering machine. He was really overwhelmed by the result. :D 

So that is what I would try. Don't talk about the music, talk about the film, the moods, the characters, the tension, the drama. What is the character feeling in just _this moment?_ What are the relations? What is the atmosphere? I think this may be a big key.

Hannes


----------



## José Herring (Feb 12, 2007)

Hannes_F @ Mon Feb 12 said:


> So that is what I would try. Don't talk about the music, talk about the film, the moods, the characters, the tension, the drama. What is the character feeling in just _this moment?_ What are the relations? What is the atmosphere? I think this may be a big key.
> 
> Hannes



This is very true. I find a lot of composers that worry a lot about the music when the music is usually the last thing on the mind of the filmmakers. How music works with what they are trying to express is the only thing they really care about.


----------



## kid-surf (Feb 14, 2007)

Thonex @ Mon Feb 12 said:


> oh... I thought this was a thread to describe directors and composers.. like:
> 
> Jerks,
> Wannabees
> ...




HAAAAAAA!!!! :lol: o-[][]-o


----------



## rJames (Feb 14, 2007)

kid-surf @ Wed Feb 14 said:


> Thonex @ Mon Feb 12 said:
> 
> 
> > oh... I thought this was a thread to describe directors and composers.. like:
> ...



Yes, thanks Kid and Thonex for your incisive comments.

Frederick, do you serve drinks here? Better make mine a double.


----------



## kid-surf (Feb 14, 2007)

I agree with the others that say worrying about the specific wording is almost in vein because words mean different things to different people. 

I first deal with it like Kays does. Trying to get them to narrow it down to a particular "over all" sound that I can understand. But more so, so THEY can understand what it is they're looking for in the broad sense. 

Otherwise -- I agree with Hannes and Jose. I've never had a conversation about what the "cues" specifically should be. Only what the emotions should be. I think when you try to get them to talk about the music (when spotting it) they don't understand this language so they'll say those type of things "The emotion here is ______" -or- "The character is having an inner dialog that says ____"

As long as I'm communicating I'll figure out what they "mean". It's when you aren't communicating at all. That's when it's a shot in the dark.

The thing I just did the director wanted a HEAT sound. But I could tell by the way he was describing the emotions that he wanted simply "cerebral" and not "overly melodic" and "not much strings" but "with a subtle/hip spanish influence". Which turned out to sound nothing like HEAT, but 'felt' like the emotions he wanted me to hit. So he loved it. 

And of course said "this sounds like Heat, I love it!" :D

The reality is that it 'feels' like Heat, it doesn't 'sound' like Heat. (cerebral yet matched HIS film)

It's all about interpreting correctly IMO. No matter what they say.


----------



## kid-surf (Feb 14, 2007)

rJames.

Here's why I don't think words will work "as a rule". Taking some of your own.


warm -- could be piano and solo violin playing a romantic styling. Could be hybrid with a darker feel. 

haunting -- Could be very dark. Could actually mean melancholy. Could just mean that he wants the pice of music to be memorable.

uplifting -- Could mean happy. Could mean poignant. Could mean orchestral. Could mean electronic. 

whimsical -- could mean John Williams-ish, could mean Danny Elfman-ish, could mean Donnie Darko-ish. Could mean none of the above.


IMO it's best to take each sit as it comes and try and dissect what they say based on everything that you have availably. 


Oh.... Wait, you're talking about library music? I personally feel that that would be waste of my time. I agree with the "wearing more hats" idea, but that's not a hat I want to wear.

Oh, no, I'm not looking to sell one cue. I'm more into doing the whole thing.

I think if you'd specified that the question was in regards to library music it would have taken a different turn. Most people thought you were referring to discussing with a director. (i.e. spotting the film)


----------



## rJames (Feb 14, 2007)

thanks for the serious response, Kid.

I am looking for the entire gamut that is music communication. 

My question is, "what are those emotional terms?"

But also, sometimes people say things like, "dark undercurrent," or "challenge" or "quest," which are not really emotions but they evoke a sound. "Innocent or child-like" is a descriptor for music.

I am looking for all words that help you write music or even ones that weren't helpful or even ideas that you (anyone) might have that they think will communicate.


----------



## kid-surf (Feb 14, 2007)

rJames @ Wed Feb 14 said:


> kid-surf @ Wed Feb 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Thonex @ Mon Feb 12 said:
> ...





I'll buy you a drink. :D o-[][]-o ,

Come on James, let me drop a joke off then I'll make serious. :D


----------



## kid-surf (Feb 14, 2007)

rJames @ Wed Feb 14 said:


> thanks for the serious response, Kid.
> 
> I am looking for the entire gamut that is music communication.
> 
> ...




No prob.


I think it's so up in the air that it's almost a waste of time to try and group together specific words or phrases like this. You'll end up with a dictionary. Seriously.

I would say that most directors will throw words at you that have no literal connection to music. Most are incapable of anything more than that. 

Honestly, I have a hard time communicating what the "sound" of the cue will be that I plan to deliver them. Instead I just try to comfort them once I know I have what I need to write the cue. Nothing I say will let them "hear/feel" the cue against their film. 


Instead I might say "Yes, I totally geò±Ñ   Qƒé±Ñ   Qƒê±Ñ   Qƒë±Ñ   Qƒì±Ñ   Qƒí±Ñ   Qƒî±Ñ   Qƒï±Ñ   Qƒð±Ñ   Qƒñ±Ñ   Qƒò±Ñ   Qƒó±Ñ   Qƒô±Ñ   Qƒõ±Ñ   Qƒö±Ñ   Qƒ÷±Ñ   Qƒø±Ñ   Qƒù±Ñ   Qƒú±Ñ   Qƒû±Ñ   Qƒü±Ñ   Qƒý±Ñ   Qƒþ±Ñ   Qƒÿ±Ñ   Q„ ±Ñ   Q„±Ñ   Q„±Ñ   Q„±Ñ   Q„±Ñ   Q„±Ñ   Q„±Ñ   Q„±Ñ   Q„±Ñ   Q„	±Ñ   Q„
±Ñ   Q„±Ñ   Q„±Ñ   Q„ ±Ñ   Q„±Ñ   Q„±Ñ   Q„±Ñ   Q„±Ñ   Q„±Ñ   Q„±Ñ   Q„±Ñ   Q„±Ñ   Q„±Ñ   Q„±Ñ   Q„±Ñ   Q„±Ñ   Q„±Ñ   Q„±Ñ   Q„±Ñ   Q„±Ñ   Q„±Ñ   Q„±Ñ   Q„ ±Ñ   Q„!±Ñ   Q„"±Ñ   Q„#±Ò   Q„$±Ò   Q„%±Ò   Q„&±Ò   Q„'±Ò   Q„(±Ò   Q„)±Ò   Q„*±Ò   Q„+±Ò   Q„,±Ò   Q„-±Ò   Q„.±Ò   Q„/±Ò   Q„0±Ò   Q„1±Ò   Q„2±Ò   Q„3±Ò   Q„4±Ò   Q„5±Ò   Q„6±Ò   Q„7±Ò   Q„8±Ò   Q„9±Ò   Q„:±Ò   Q„;±Ò   Q„<±Ò   Q„=


----------



## Frederick Russ (Feb 14, 2007)

I think its cool that you're attempting to define the language that directors like to use. Even the title of this thread sounds like chapter three of a-yet-to-be written street guide for composers. I'm sure if you keep digging you'll get a list happening - could be a cool resource.


----------



## rJames (Feb 14, 2007)

Now that's what I'm talking about. thanks Folman.

This is an interesting list. I wonder if emotions only go so far.

What about contextual words like challenge, intrigue, anticipation, ominous, soaring.


----------



## wonshu (Feb 15, 2007)

Makes me wonder why there are no "stock-collections" of paragraphes for writing a book.

Or why filmmakers don't use stock-images to produce their movies...

Oh wait... it's something artistic...

HTF did we musicians let them take that away from us and present ourselves as these service bitches????


----------



## kid-surf (Feb 15, 2007)

wonshu @ Thu Feb 15 said:


> Makes me wonder why there are no "stock-collections" of paragraphes for writing a book.
> 
> Or why filmmakers don't use stock-images to produce their movies...
> 
> ...



Ha! I tend to agree...

I'm more into freestylin it. Otherwise you may end up in a game of word twister, confusing the issue into meaningless micro semantics (IMO). If the directors says "depressed" and he really means "melancholy", that should be apparent to us by the way the scene is "playing". It's a waste of time to write towards the words they use. (IMO). They usually aren't using the right words anyway, or words that have no connection to emotions. Just score the scene (IMO).

Kinda reminds me of those books "how to write a good script". (Answer: You just do). That's how I see creativity.

But I'm glad you got what you needed rJames. Curious are you virgo? (BTW - I am)

Hey, whatever works.


----------



## rJames (Feb 15, 2007)

wonshu @ Thu Feb 15 said:


> Makes me wonder why there are no "stock-collections" of paragraphes for writing a book.
> 
> Or why filmmakers don't use stock-images to produce their movies...
> 
> ...



Wonshu, I can't understand why you would want to attack me or this thread. If you don't communicate with directors, and don't have anything productive to say, why speak?

Are you saying that if are an artist you don't listen to what the director has to say?

You are either naive or wealthy (and naive).

In every business, in every profession, you are a "service bitch." If you aren't, your customers go elsewhere.

regarding writers...ever hear of a thesarus?

A better analogy to selling music to a second client is "Quotable Quotes". These are books full of famous quotes that are used over and over again speakers.


----------



## wonshu (Feb 15, 2007)

Hi James,

I'm very very sorry if you understood it that way, I wasn't trying to attack you, I do however question the business model of offering a "database of emotions" and by that I stand.

From what I hear people in the industry are doing that anyway already.

All I was saying is, I found it strange that this happens mainly with music, which is why I brought up the idea of stock-writing or stock-video.

I understand that you're offering to fill this need from producers from a business stand-point. I just don't think it is the right way to approach a movie or a commercial as an artistic piece of work.

I'm really sorry, nothing I said was directed at you! It was directed at the way the industry seems to be contempt with in creating products.

:oops: 

And regarding the "service bitch": of course we're all service bitches, but somewhere along the line I have the feeling that the music isn't considered as a creative field but more like something that "oh yeah, we do need, let's just slap some stock under it... oh wait let's ask some guy, but let's not go nuts with it". It just happened to me a lot of times especially with younger directors or (the worst!) with advertisement agencies. The older and more experienced the director the more freedom I have but also the more I have to struggle to please him, which is fine, because it allows me to explore things I wouldn't think of myself. But at least the respect is there.

Cheers
Hans


----------

