# The "no new Macbook pro announced at WWDC" support group



## dtonthept (Jun 13, 2016)

Sighhhhhhh.......


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## Prockamanisc (Jun 13, 2016)

I KNOOOOWWW!!! Why did I just spend 2 hours watching announcements for emojis?


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## 5Lives (Jun 13, 2016)

No Mac Pro updates either...wondering if I should just grab that 2013 used Mac Pro now.


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## Mundano (Jun 13, 2016)

what does it mean?


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## Prockamanisc (Jun 13, 2016)

Possibly July, but probably September they'll hold an event and announce the new MacBooks, which could have partial iPad-technology integration, or something to that effect. I'm stuck because my MacBook Pro has been restarting for months, and it's where I do all of my studying and keep all of my notes.


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## FriFlo (Jun 13, 2016)

It means, Logic X+ pro will only be available on IOS ...


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## dgburns (Jun 13, 2016)

FriFlo said:


> It means, Logic X+ pro will only be available on IOS ...


 
mac pro will be updated if the link is to be believed-

http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/mac/new-mac-pro-2016-release-date-apple-wwdc-3536364/


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## 5Lives (Jun 13, 2016)

dgburns said:


> mac pro will be updated if the link is to be believed-
> 
> http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/mac/new-mac-pro-2016-release-date-apple-wwdc-3536364/



Probably will be some ridiculous price. More and more, I'm leaning to just adding a PC slave.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 13, 2016)

Prockamanisc, I posted this the other day, but I too had an ailing Mac laptop.

Since there's no MBP worth buying to use in the studio and I needed a laptop for traveling, I picked up a used (but perfect, with AppleCare) 11" MacBook Air as a stopgap until the new ones come out.

There's been a glitch in my plans: I like it so much that I have absolutely no intention of replacing it with the next model! Perfect computer for traveling: weighs nothing, small enough to open on a plane, excellent keyboard, battery lasts forever.

My wife is pissed, because she was supposed to get this one when the new ones come out.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 13, 2016)

Meanwhile, I'm so excited about Siri "deep learning" that I wet my pants several times.

Does anyone actually use this ridiculous crap, just out of interest? I use talk-texting and I talk-enter locations in Google Maps when I'm driving, but I don't think that's Siri. Siri has to be the most naff program ever!

There are some features in the latest OS X versions that I like, but both Siri and the Apple Watch contribute to my feeling that the digital revolution is hitting a lull.


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## Vik (Jun 14, 2016)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Does anyone actually use this ridiculous crap, just out of interest? I use talk-texting and I talk-enter locations in Google Maps when I'm driving, but I don't think that's Siri. Siri has to be the most naff program ever!
> 
> There are some features in the latest OS X versions that I like, but both Siri and the Apple Watch contribute to my feeling that the digital revolution is hitting a lull.


I use Siri on the iPhone for various things - googling, SMSs and more. I'd probably use it a little bit on the Mac as well. But regarding Apple and the digital revolution... it seems that Apple is less and less about "pro" and more and more about toys and "con"(sumers). Mack in the day we needed Macs for music production, desktop publishing and so on, but I'm constantly asking myself why I stick to Macs and to Logic and MBPs being behind the competition is one of the reason for that.


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## Tatu (Jun 14, 2016)

Current/upcoming trend seems to be home-apps and that's where the consumers are. We composers prefer damp basements and carages, so no love for us unfortunately


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## Vik (Jun 14, 2016)

Tatu said:


> Current/upcoming trend seems to be home-apps and that's where the consumers are. We composers prefer damp basements and carages, so no love for us unfortunately


Home apps, sure - and TVs, cars, watches and phones - which would be totally fine if they would continue to develop Logic properly. Yamaha makes motorbikes and waverunners, but still manage to develop two DAWs and a professional score app - on two platforms!


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## Tatu (Jun 14, 2016)

Vik said:


> if they would continue to develop Logic properly


I'd say that they've been doing their job, as far as LPX goes.

I just hope that they'd maintain at least some kind of a stability at the core of OS X (or macOS as it is now..) and wouldn't shatter it with all the social and what not crap and other "Life features" which are on top of everything these days.

I suppose there's still hope that they'd just update their hardware a bit in silence during WWDC.


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## paoling (Jun 14, 2016)

I'm waiting for the new Macbooks as well. This is the best place to cry, complain, whine about it (thread started two years ago!):

http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/waiting-for-skylake-mbp-thread.1661246/page-709

The main problem seems to be the lack of proper components to make a decent upgrade to the machines. In particular a proper GPU for their MBP 15 is not yet released (Polaris 11) and the 6770HQ processors are just out. Maybe this time will let Apple to test deeper the redesign of the upcoming laptop series and maybe wait for more powerful components in the meantime (Samsung SSDs).


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## Kaufmanmoon (Jun 14, 2016)

Reading a bit more about the conference. It was a software conference so there was never any plan to release any hardware news. I'm not sure why this wasn't flagged up more beforehand. 
Well I've just bit the bullet and ordered a refurb 2015 15" macbook pro. Even if they come out next month I wouldn't be able to afford the top of the line model. People seem to be getting on really well with the 2015 macbook's on here.


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## PeterBaumann (Jun 14, 2016)

I have also been waiting for the new MBP to be announced. I'm going away for a few weeks over the summer and have a couple of projects (sound design and 1 composer gig) to work on. Do people have any suggestions about temporary/long term solutions? 

I might just have to get the current highest spec macbook, but for that I'm looking at almost £1700 with a student discount. I've just had a quick look at hackintosh options, is this a reliable substitute for an official mac laptop, or is it best to steer clear of hackintosh setups?


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## Ashermusic (Jun 14, 2016)

Vik said:


> Home apps, sure - and TVs, cars, watches and phones - which would be totally fine if they would continue to develop Logic properly. Yamaha makes motorbikes and waverunners, but still manage to develop two DAWs and a professional score app - on two platforms!



As I have posted many times, the developers of Logic (and GarageBand) are _not_ part of the Apple development team in Cupertino. They are Germans in Germany and they continue to work hard on Logic Pro. So what happens with the other stuff takes no resources away from Logic.


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 14, 2016)

PeterBaumann said:


> I have also been waiting for the new MBP to be announced. I'm going away for a few weeks over the summer and have a couple of projects (sound design and 1 composer gig) to work on. Do people have any suggestions about temporary/long term solutions?
> 
> I might just have to get the current highest spec macbook, but for that I'm looking at almost £1700 with a student discount. I've just had a quick look at hackintosh options, is this a reliable substitute for an official mac laptop, or is it best to steer clear of hackintosh setups?



I have the top end current generation MBP and I'm extremely happy with it in the main (a few niggles, mostly Mac software issues though). Personally I'd advise against a Hackintosh - I spend a miserable week trying to get Paralells running smoothly and it felt like a loosing battle every step of the way. The moment I stopped fighting with it and just let a Mac be a Mac, it behaved like a champ - CPU use dropped, battery life shot up, the temperature reduced (the fan is very rarely on now, pretty much never in day to day web / email chores). IMO it's the software and hardware integration that makes an MBP experience so good, there seems little point in throwing that out - and I'm essentially a Windows fan.

I ummed and ahhed about waiting for the next gen back in March, but I soon figured that Apple are a law unto themselves, and I could be waiting a long time, so I'm feeling very slightly smug today. I'm sure the next gen, when it finally appears, will be super-shiny, but I wonder if it will be in ways we audio folks appreciate - all the iOS 10 nonsense looks awful, and MacOS Sierra looks similarly silly and gimmicky (Siri... urgh... watch a video picture in picture while you're working... what a brilliant productivity idea that is, and you can do it already anyway). I decided that the current gen met the needs I'd ask of it, and it has - that SSD is phenomenally quick, way faster than my desktop SSDs. It would be nice if it were a little smaller and lighter, and 32gb RAM wouldn't hurt, but 16gb is nowhere near the limitation it used to be with disabled tracks in Cubase, for example. And I fear they'll drop regular USB 3 ports completely in the next gen... in the end, for music use, getting as good a deal now as you are able is the best way forward imo.


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## dtonthept (Jun 14, 2016)

I'm not a Logic user myself, but friend was telling me he met an apple Logic person at a recent YouTube conference and came away with all his stresses of Logic waning having been allayed. In other words, I know a guy who knows a guy who says it's all looking very good into the future...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 14, 2016)

They've been a consumer company all along, yet Logic continues to improve all the time despite the warnings. I'm not worried about that.

What has me apprehensive:

A. Planned obsolescence and noncreative destruction as a substitute for coming up with the next big thing. The upcoming OS version won't run on my perfectly good 2008 8-core (yes it's old, but so what?) And if the rumors about getting rid of the headphone jack are true, that would be incredibly stupid - especially if the solution is those execrable Beats headphones (the pair my daughter was given - which we returned - is hands down the worst audio product I've ever seen, going all the way back to my first jobs after high school working in stereo stores).

B. Lack of ports on everything. The MacBook has a single USB-C port for charging and everything else. That may be an extreme, but it's not good as a trend. iOS devices also only have a single port, and it's a limitation. Yeah they're designed to be svelte and simple, but that can't be the only design factor.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 14, 2016)

It doesn't matter, laptops are for travel not for serious work. All of us who are serious use desktops for work and look down on laptop users


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## LamaRose (Jun 14, 2016)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> What has me apprehensive:
> 
> A. Planned obsolescence and noncreative destruction...



Effing A on that. I've been a happy "Pages" user, for writing projects, for years... but their newest "upgrade" is a major downgrade. They're actually removing/modifying code - spending money - for the purpose of removing necessary, if not outright essential, options. No two-page view? WTF? No "save as"... the list goes on and on. As you say, it's intentional obsolescence so that they no longer have to upgrade and maintain these programs. And they're simply expediting the scheduled obsolescence via their gremlin engineering. It's a race to the bottom between Apple and MS.

I have an earnest goal of making a living using a typewriter. Give up the digital realm, including music... maybe an acoustic and a 4-track!


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 14, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> It doesn't matter, laptops are for travel not for serious work. All of us who are serious use desktops for work and look down on laptop users



I get plenty done on a laptop w two minis (and sometimes my old pcs). It's faster than my old mac tower for sure. If you are saying for an all-in-one,ie no slaves, then sure. But even then, with Tbolt the only thing a desktop has over a laptop are the amount of cores. And if you are using UA plugins (i'm not)... 

Honestly, I dount I'll ever go back to a desktop DAW if i can help it. But I'll prob go PC next time around.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 14, 2016)

Just kidding, although to work with a DAW you surely must hook it up to a big ass monitor or two. I would rather be waterboarded than have to work in Logic on a laptop screen for any length of time


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 14, 2016)

One big ass monitor...and it's not enough but I just deal with it. I know there is an interface that allows for two but I keep forgetting to check it out. 

You know I got the laptop so I could do annoying little things like tempo-mapping, session setup, big dumb edits with headphones in front of the tube at night before i zonk...but that is really not the best idea for sleep. Maybe a desktop is better for health reasons also.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 14, 2016)

Answering your kidding seriously, Jay, Apple has *traveling* laptops nailed: the MacBook Air series. My 2014 11" model has a dual 1.4GHz processor and 8GB of RAM. That's not a whole lot of use for Logic, and it doesn't need to be for email, web, word processing, etc. (although I do have Logic and Pro Tools installed so I can do light knick-knacks if I need to).

But Apple also makes high-end laptops. The current top-line MacBook Pro is a quad 2.8GHz i7, and you could certainly put that to good use in a studio - if only it held more than 16GB of memory. Hook up a big monitor and your peripherals, and you'd have a computer that rivals a lot of desktops people use. *IF* it held more than 16GB of memory.

There's another problem, and that's that the 15" MacBook Pro is an old-style heavy laptop, and nowadays you don't need to travel with one that heavy.

Those are the rasons why people are waiting for the next generation.

And I've posted many times that the days of desktop computers are numbered. There won't be any technical reason for that big case much longer, in fact the current Mac Pros are tiny.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 14, 2016)

Two statements ring out though:
1."That's not a whole lot of use for Logic, and it doesn't need to be for email, web, word processing, etc"

BFD, so will an iPad.

2. " if only it held more than 16GB of memory."

But it doesn't.


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## 5Lives (Jun 14, 2016)

With the ability to disable tracks in Cubase and purging samples in Kontakt / streaming from SSDs, you can get by with 16GB of RAM these days. I currently am doing so with a maxed out MBP. Having said that, for convenience, I'm looking to get a PC slave now...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 14, 2016)

Jay, now don't make me come over there.

The BFD is that the MacBook Air is a fantastic computer for its intended purpose - which is NOT running Logic. iPads are great for different things. The current MacBook Pro is long in the tooth, but the original point of this thread is that may people are waiting for the new models - which hopefully will hold more than 16GB of memory.

Now sit back down and stop waving that damn towel like ML Carr. You write like Tommy Heinsohn sounds.


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## Vik (Jun 14, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> As I have posted many times, the developers of Logic (and GarageBand) are _not_ part of the Apple development team in Cupertino. They are Germans in Germany and they continue to work hard on Logic Pro. So what happens with the other stuff takes no resources away from Logic.


Hi Jay, not that it matters - but I actually assumed that his Logic-ness himself, Gerhard Lengeling, lived in US. But that's not important; I don't think anyone ever has suggested that the Logic team works on watches or cars. But many of us wonder why Apple, with all it's cash, can't hire more people to work on development in the man areas which have slowed down so massively (eg the score editor), which of course has nothing to do with assuming that the Logic guys now work on TVs or phones instead of Logic.


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## Vik (Jun 14, 2016)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> new models - which hopefully will hold *more than 16GB of memory.*


+1.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 14, 2016)

Yes, Dr. Lengeling lives in No Cal, but he does not actually write code anymore, more of a "big picture" guy is my understanding while the guys actually actively developing Logic are in Germany.

As to why or how Apple allocates its resources, I have no insight.


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## Vik (Jun 14, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> As to why or how Apple allocates its resources, I have no insight.


Neither do I, but I read last year that 800 people are working on the iPhone camera: http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/20/10631330/iphone-camera-team-800-people. I don't know how many who work on Logic. 
Re. Gerhard Lengeling working on "big picture" kind of stuff, that's great - especially if it is about Logic's "big picture". Knowing that Steinberg has 12 people working on a new score editor (while Logic's score editor still struggles), and that i7 laptops with 32 gb RAM has been out for a while in the Windows market, Apple simply isn't that... "impressive" anymore. And I'm not happy about saying that.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 14, 2016)

It's not a slam dunk that more people working on Logic would speed up the development.

They've done a pretty good job so far!


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## Vik (Jun 14, 2016)

More people working on Logic *could* of course only mean more bugs - depending on who they hired.  But a lot of Logic users are frustrated with the development in areas within Logic that are important to composers and VI users - like eg. how the built in articulation control works (without use of extra products), how CC automation is implemented etc, and of course the score editor. So - sadly, I don't agree that the Logic development is going well: It has both slowed down massively, there have been between 1000 and 2000 bugs fixed since the Logic 10 release (which is both good and bad news), and things which *could* have happened with more developers hasn't happened. 

Imagine if Apple (instead of Steinberg) had hired 12 people, 3-4 years ago, to work on improvements of the _integrated_ score editor in Logic. That would have brilliant news for all those (99%?) score users who would prefer to work in one app instead of in two.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 14, 2016)

Well, it's a half full/half empty thing.

I just meant that Logic Pro X is a big step forward over previous versions, and it keeps getting new things (like Alchemy and Drum Designer). And it does keep getting better.

Also, my hunch is that the percentage of Logic users interested in the score editor is very low. I'm not saying that's good, just that it's probably the case.


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## Vik (Jun 14, 2016)

> Well, it's a half full/half empty thing.


Sure.

Regrading Logic Pro X is a big step forward over previous versions, that's where we disagree. After 4 years of waiting (after the L9 release), Logic X was a massive disappointment, and still is. But of course, people who are interested in EDM loops or need an "automatic drummer" will disagree. Btw, I happen to know many who agree in this view, including people who have decided to stay on Logic 9 due to changes in Logic X they didn't like (combined with few improvements in the areas they hoped to see improvements in).



> my hunch is that the percentage of Logic users interested in the score editor is very low


Compared with those who want more EDM features, of course the number is low. And not only that, but the number of people who are interested in composition of songs with more than 5-6 common/simple chords is also much lower than people who would like to write the kind of music more "advanced" songwriters or composers make.

But like Henry Ford, I don't one should give people only want they think they want (faster horses). Also, and more important: I think it's important to look at what kind of function Apple has, "music wise". Apple is a main contributor of hardware and software which is used to fill the air with static, easy to produce music. When I checked out the loops which came with LPX, I heard some of the ugliest loops I've ever heard, the kind of loops which, when I hear them in a dominating role in a song on the radio, just wants me to turn of f the radio. And while I understand Apple desire to keep strong financially, and attract new and young users, I don't agree in a policy which includes doing almost anything it takes to get those new customers. I'm more for the "think different" approach than the people pleasing approach, and I think easily could survive without ignoring eg the score users.

Add to that that if people want an i7 laptop with 32gb RAM or more, Apple simply isn't making one. So - after having been an Apple and Logic fanboy for many years, I really dislike to admit that I'm considering a Windows laptop with 32BG RAM + Cubase and/or Dorico.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 14, 2016)

I'm planning on longish vacations in other parts of the country (and out of the country as well.) I'm waiting for 32 gig.

Re other matters in this thread:

1. Yes, Siri is truly and disappointingly suckular. I use the Google app via voice for all searching, it's brilliant.
2. They should truly be ashamed of Pages. I'm trying to write the deathless story of Larry on it, and it's painful and crippled in way too many ways.
3. Making the Mac more iOS-ish (shudder). Two or three iPhone updates have screwed me now. I really don't know how they can let these things out when they're so buggy. I wait weeks and months now, and it's even a PITA to turn off the endless nattering of the phone and pad to upgrade. They bury the command in General Settings in an obscure location. Ridiculous.
4. As I'm still on 10.85, I'm not real worried that they're ending support for my Mac. Nothing lasts forever. Still, it's always a bit disappointing.

All in all, it's not the Apple I grew up with, the one that was such a brilliant partner in my career. Buggy Cloud, Siri, inefficient apps, lack of innovation or timely upgrades. The biggest positive I can state is that the hardware is very well made and lasts a long time, at least in my experience.


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 14, 2016)

Vik said:


> i7 laptops with 32 gb RAM has been out for a while in the Windows market, Apple simply isn't that... "impressive" anymore. And I'm not happy about saying that.



Having spent a few months earlier this year researching it, I came to the conclusion that although what you say is technically correct, the user experience is still that the mbp walks over every other laptop out there. They run cooler, longer battery life, far quicker, more powerful. Although they're not super-light, they are far lighter than the bricks that run the 32gb RAM, and are physically smaller.

Ideologically, though, I made a very early pact. I decided my use for it music-wise was not to be a full desktop replacement but a lean and mean on the road workhorse with genuine no-fuss portability, so that 16gb was not so much of a big deal. It's only the full orchestral template that goes anywhere near the 16gb limit, and for that I'd have a disabled-track simpler alternate. If running a fully loaded template is a must for you, then either slaves or bricks are your only real choices, and arguably even bricks will come up short as 64gb is the aim more than 32gb. Also I was adamant I wasn't going to use external drives or libraries / fx that required a dongle - keep it simple, always on - and had great fun paring down my bloat to something leaner. Very happy with the outcome, that uses circa 350gb of the hdd. Amazing what you can fit in there. As for a DAW, I use Cubase Elements for most simple chores, and if I need the big guns with disabled tracks, I break my dongle rule for a 2nd copy of Cubase I picked up cheap in the PT cross-grade sale, and this lives permanently in the laptop bag. Superficially nuts and not an ideal solution from several perspectives, but fairly practical, as I did want to keep the ability to transfer projects from laptop to desktop.

So in my case, I came to reason that actually I didn't need more than 16gb. My old ghastly Windows laptop was 24gb and I never once went near that limit, because it still wasn't enough to work as a full desktop alternative. In the end, the reasons to wait for the next gen mbp became fairly trivial, and I ran the risk of Apple screwing up the connectors anyway. Of course none of this will apply to everyone, but taking a cold honest look at how you intend to work is a vital first step imo.


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## samphony (Jun 15, 2016)

dtonthept said:


> I'm not a Logic user myself, but friend was telling me he met an apple Logic person at a recent YouTube conference and came away with all his stresses of Logic waning having been allayed. In other words, I know a guy who knows a guy who says it's all looking very good into the future...



Which is true


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## PeterBaumann (Jun 15, 2016)

Just opted for the current model customised to top-spec. Shame as I'd been looking forward to see what apple had to offer this week, particularly with regards to RAM and the possible customisable OLED bar at the top. Oh well. At least macbooks tend to retain their value quite well so if another one comes out at the end of the year I can swap it for the newer version if the upgrades are worth it.


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## whinecellar (Jun 15, 2016)

I too use a top-spec MB Pro as my main machine, along with a 40" 4k display, Thunderbolt drive array and 4 slave machines - so that gets me around the 16 GB RAM limit and gives me portability since I still tour quite a bit. It's a great machine and plenty powerful. If they would only break that stupid 16 GB RAM limit!

To me the bigger "support group" need is for Mac Pro updates!


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## PeterBaumann (Jun 15, 2016)

Yeah it's basically for working on the go for my masters next year, and when I'm on holiday for a couple of weeks here and there and simply can't transport my iMac/Slave system. I think the 16GB won't be TOO much of a limitation, but I'll have to bounce in place/freeze tracks a fair bit I think with denser orchestral tracks. Does anyone have any suggestions as to the easiest way to swap over from the slave system which has sample libraries on it to the MBP for shorter periods? Do you just unplug the iLok/elicenser and stick the libraries on a spare hard drive, or is there an easier way? I think because of license limitations on the libraries it's the only option I've got.


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## whinecellar (Jun 15, 2016)

PeterBaumann said:


> Do you just unplug the iLok/elicenser and stick the libraries on a spare hard drive, or is there an easier way? I think because of license limitations on the libraries it's the only option I've got.



Yeah, not much you can do about that if you want to access those libraries on the go...


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## Mundano (Jun 15, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> It doesn't matter, laptops are for travel not for serious work. All of us who are serious use desktops for work and look down on laptop users


Almost ALL professional DJs use MacBook Pros, almost ALL PA Sound Engineers use MacBook Pros, almost ALL traveling Composers use MacBook Pros


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## Ashermusic (Jun 15, 2016)

Mundano said:


> Almost ALL professional DJs use MacBook Pros, almost ALL PA Sound Engineers use MacBook Pros, almost ALL traveling Composers use MacBook Pros




You HAVE to know that I was joking, surely.


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## Mundano (Jun 15, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> You HAVE to know that I was joking, surely.


oh SORRY, hehe, cheers!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 15, 2016)

This is all relative, of course, because a few years ago the idea of 16GB in a computer was a pipe dream.

I forget who said what, but in my opinion it's not really true that Apple is behind in their laptops. While I'd trade a little more thickness - not weight, thickness - for the ability to at least open the thing and put in a new battery (let alone upgrade the storage or memory), laptops were much more cumbersome before they came out with the MacBook Air a few years ago. Now everyone is copying it.

But this goes back to what I write all the time: at some point in the near future, there will be no need for separate laptops and desktop machines (unless it's an iMac with everything built in). If you can have everything hanging off the current Mac Pro, you can have everything hanging off a laptop.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 15, 2016)

Vik:



> Regrading Logic Pro X is a big step forward over previous versions, that's where we disagree. After 4 years of waiting (after the L9 release), Logic X was a massive disappointment, and still is. But of course, people who are interested in EDM loops or need an "automatic drummer" will disagree. Btw, I happen to know many who agree in this view, including people who have decided to stay on Logic 9 due to changes in Logic X they didn't like (combined with few improvements in the areas they hoped to see improvements in).



And I know many who love Logic X. 

They did a great job of streamlining the interface, and added some great stuff. I don't personally care about Drummer or loops either, but Alchemy is a very nice synth.

But just the ability to include non-note data when you move a note is enough to sell me! (It means I can edit parts I played from wind or breath controller, because the CC2 stuff is included with the note when you move it.)



> But like Henry Ford, I don't one should give people only want they think they want (faster horses). Also, and more important: I think it's important to look at what kind of function Apple has, "music wise". Apple is a main contributor of hardware and software which is used to fill the air with static, easy to produce music. When I checked out the loops which came with LPX, I heard some of the ugliest loops I've ever heard, the kind of loops which, when I hear them in a dominating role in a song on the radio, just wants me to turn of f the radio. And while I understand Apple desire to keep strong financially, and attract new and young users, I don't agree in a policy which includes doing almost anything it takes to get those new customers. I'm more for the "think different" approach than the people pleasing approach, and I think easily could survive without ignoring eg the score users.



Logic will never be a music-by-the-numbers program. But if you feel the way you do about a lot of music today - and I agree with you - then... well, I've never liked *any* loops (for myself) in the first place, in fact I've never used one. Copy and paste, absolutely, but loops just distract me.

By the way, what are the serious issues you have with the score editor? It's always worked very well for me.

As a matter of fact, I first met Jay about 20 years ago when I needed more hands on a transcription project I was working on, and it worked very well. A guy played an entire musical into Logic; he could play well but was musically illiterate.


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## Vik (Jun 15, 2016)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> This is all relative, of course, because a few years ago the idea of 16GB in a computer was a pipe dream.


Sure. But things are changing. I have a colleague who has a slave with 64 gb in addition to his main Mac, and he'd like to have 128 gb instead... a LOT has happened with the size of virtual instrument setups over the last years!





> in my opinion it's not really true that Apple is behind in their laptops.


Still - the MBPs don't use the latest i7 processors or have 32gb RAM, right?

"I'd trade a little more thickness - not weight, thickness - for the ability to at least open the thing and put in a new battery (let alone upgrade the storage or memory)"

+1


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## whinecellar (Jun 15, 2016)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> They did a great job of streamlining the interface...



I have to strongly disagree with that, but I guess it's a matter of priorities. I'm on a project right now where I have to go back & forth between Logic 9 and X daily, and I am simply stunned at just how bass-ackward Logic X is compared to 9. The audio bin had file link removed and is WAY less visually friendly. The fonts are huge and take up too much space. The GUI still draws far more slowly than 9. The color palette is dark and non-customizable. No more color options for the arrange window - you're out of luck if you don't want to stare at dark gray all day. And those are just overall visual issues - not touching new or longstanding bugs.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> But just the ability to include non-note data when you move a note is enough to sell me! (It means I can edit parts I played from wind or breath controller, because the CC2 stuff is included with the note when you move it.)



That's been there for years before Logic X 

Anyway, I know it's all subjective and we'll never all agree about priorities, but I honestly don't get how anyone can use 9 and X side-by-side and prefer the arguable steps backward/removal of features in X. Unless of course you care more for the added features, which is certainly fair. I'm only using it because I spent the time building a new template from scratch in X, but I really wish I had stayed in 9 most of the time. X is a buggy mess for me, 9 is simply faster, much easier to look at all day, and gosh darn it, people like it 

(just my $.02 of course)


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## Vik (Jun 15, 2016)

> And I know many who love Logic X.


Sure, many do. But would they start to dislike Logic if it also had the score/composing/VI-related feaetures many of us have been wanting for some years now?  It's not an either/or situation, you know. Logic could have been great _both_ for the EDM guys and for the rest of us,.






> Logic will never be a music-by-the-numbers program. But if you feel the way you do about a lot of music today - and I agree with you - then... well, I've never liked *any* loops (for myself) in the first place, in fact I've never used one.


Pardon my English, but what is a music-by-the-numbers program?

"By the way, what are the serious issues you have with the score editor? "
That would be a very long and very off topic post/number of posts. For starters, check out other threads about Logic and the score editor - many of the wishes and shortcomings discussed 5-10 years ago have not been implemented.

Don't get me wrong, I'll gladly contribute to a new, separate thread about Logic's score editor. 

Meanwhile, here's something from from 2008: http://logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=33384

Something from 2013:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/9132457-post3093.html

A newer thread/survey: 
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/apple-logic-pro/1070899-favourite-logic-pro-wishes-part-two.html

By the way, many so called score wishes are not only about the score editor, but about giving Logic a much better workflow for writing/composing music.


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## Soundhound (Jun 15, 2016)

Yes, please! I'll go to any basement with styrofoam cups of coffee, anytime. I did just watch the Spitfire cribs piece with Andy Gray and he seems to be fine with a vader helmet 6 core. can't remember if he's using sample slaves though, I don't think so? If it works for him, hmmmmm....





whinecellar said:


> To me the bigger "support group" need is for Mac Pro updates!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 15, 2016)

> That's been there for years before Logic X



But they failed to tell me until Logic X.

Thanks a lot, Apple, you iPhone consumer company that doesn't care about professionals.


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## whinecellar (Jun 15, 2016)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> But they failed to tell me until Logic X.
> 
> Thanks a lot, Apple, you iPhone consumer company that doesn't care about professionals.


Ha... well you wouldn't be the only one in that boat, Nick


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## Ashermusic (Jun 15, 2016)

whinecellar said:


> I have to strongly disagree with that, but I guess it's a matter of priorities. I'm on a project right now where I have to go back & forth between Logic 9 and X daily, and I am simply stunned at just how bass-ackward Logic X is compared to 9. The audio bin had file link removed and is WAY less visually friendly. The fonts are huge and take up too much space. The GUI still draws far more slowly than 9. The color palette is dark and non-customizable. No more color options for the arrange window - you're out of luck if you don't want to stare at dark gray all day. And those are just overall visual issues - not touching new or longstanding bugs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not me. Track stacks, the Arpeggiator and Scripter plug-ins, and VCA groups alone are worth the price of admission for me.


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## whinecellar (Jun 15, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Not me. Track stacks, the Arpeggiator and Scripter plug-ins, and VCA groups alone are worth the price of admission for me.


Yep, like I said, we all have our priorities. Funny thing about track stacks - I begged for that for years, and it was that alone that caused me to rebuild a new template in Logic X. But to me it's not fully implemented without key commands to open and close them: as of now you first have to select the track stack header before "close track stack" has any effect. That was so aggravating to me I went back to old-style folders...


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## Ashermusic (Jun 15, 2016)

Well what about Summing stacks?


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## whinecellar (Jun 15, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Well what about Summing stacks?


I don't have a use for those. I simply wanted all the advantages of old style folders, but with drop-down functionality so you could see their contents in the context of an overall arrangement. Track stacks do that perfectly, it's just that getting into and out of them quickly is a drag. If they would simply implement a key command to "close parent track stack" it would be perfect!

I've always been a folder guy since building a large template: it makes navigating large sessions a lot more pleasant since everything is in folders by instrument type.

Hope that makes sense!


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## Ashermusic (Jun 15, 2016)

So you never create layered instruments, or if you do , you like going into the Environment and cabling MIDI instruments to software instruments?


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## whinecellar (Jun 15, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> So you never create layered instruments, or if you do , you like going into the Environment and cabling MIDI instruments to software instruments?


Nope, the only time I've layered instruments is in a live setting, but that was back in the pre-Logic X days so the environment was the only way to do that.

If I wanted to layer something in a project context, I just copy and paste a part on playback or option-drag (same thing).

I do get why people might like summing stacks though - it's just not something I would typically use.


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