# What a terrible day.



## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 14, 2012)

Just the worst.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 14, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Dec 14 said:


> Just the worst.



It is profoundly depressing.


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## lee (Dec 14, 2012)

..?


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## quantum7 (Dec 14, 2012)

My wife and I are kissing our baby all day today. I feel so bad for those poor families. True evil does certainly exist.


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## MaestroRage (Dec 14, 2012)

clearly there is something afoot. What am I missing here?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 14, 2012)

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyreg ... ol.html?hp


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## MaestroRage (Dec 14, 2012)

that's... man that's just impossibly messed up.


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## Resoded (Dec 14, 2012)

Horrible... I can't believe there's another one of these so soon.


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## dpasdernick (Dec 14, 2012)

I can't even think about it. It'll make me cry. Hug your kids guys...


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## lee (Dec 14, 2012)

:(


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## Chriss Ons (Dec 14, 2012)

that just makes you want to cry your eyes out. :cry:


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## NYC Composer (Dec 14, 2012)

My wife told me when I woke up. I cried and made a donation to the Brady Center. I still find myself tearful. 20 children.

http://www.bradycenter.org/

1. Background checks.
2. Close the gun show loophole.
3. Regulate ALL private gun sales.
4. *More resources for mental illness.*
5. Speak out. Donate. Write your Congressperson.

Please add to this list.


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## schatzus (Dec 14, 2012)

Terrible nightmare. The worst possible thing. If you have kids, hug them and make sure they know they are loved.


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## chimuelo (Dec 14, 2012)

I once thought the excessive presence of armed Police at my sons school, which is in a nice neighborhood, was excessive, and was pissed that my wife gets tickets there all of the time for parking or going over 10mph. I feel like a schmuck and should send the Chief of Metro a Thank You note.

We can no longer call these events "random acts of violence" as they are too numerous, and appear to be from the ease of which weapons can be had by unstable, mentally damaged people. They are all young too which really tells me there's a problem.

Being a parent my heart is broken and I am shamed by this.


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## rgames (Dec 14, 2012)

Yes - tragic. I haven't seen any details of the shooter but I'll bet big money against small that it's another example of a failed mental health system. The other tragedy is the number of people who will use the shootings as yet another way to promote a political agenda. Even worse is the fact that most of those agendas have nothing to do with preventing future tragedies like the one in Connecticut.

On a more personal note, when we had a similar tragedy here in Arizona (Giffords shooting), the tone here was much less supportive than for the one in Connecticut, or the one in Virginia, or the ones in Colorado, or the ones in any of a multitude of other states that suffer the same types of tragedies. Rather than sharing support for the victims, as I see here, the discussion immediately descended into rants against conservatives (all the more ironic given the fact that Tucson covers two congressional districts, both of which are held by Democrats).

Seriously - go back and look at that thread. I believe you'll find a very different tone in the discussion.

Use the contrast as an opportunity to reflect on your true motivations and decide whether they're really in the best interest of humanity. Check yourselves.

rgames


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## wst3 (Dec 14, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Fri Dec 14 said:


> My wife told me when I woke up. I cried and made a donation to the Brady Center. I still find myself tearful. 20 children.
> 
> http://www.bradycenter.org/
> 
> ...



No need to add anything, but I would put #4 first!

I fear that we will never fully eliminate the possibility that one can get a gun illegally. And even if we did, a truly disturbed person would find a way to inflict terror.

We need to remove the stigma of seeking help, or suggesting that someone needs help, for emotional disorders and mental health issues. Then we need to build programs that help people with these problems. Lastly, and I can't believe I'm saying this, but we need to find a way to isolate people who can't be cured from the rest of society, for their good and the good of society. It must be done in a non-punitive manner, but I'm afraid we need it. And man that scares me!!!

I can tell you that I hugged my kids when I got home tonight - I almost always do, it's a highlight of my day, but tonight it was different. Now I'm watching a dumb movie with them<G>!

And I am angry, and I am sad.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 14, 2012)

Richard, you just inspired me to ASCEND into a rant against conservatism.


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## wst3 (Dec 14, 2012)

Do send the Chief a nice thank-you note!

I had a similar awakening today... I spent the morning at a school fixing various problems in their video production system. Oddly I never turned on the TV, so I had no idea what was going on outside.

But I was seriously annoyed at the 20 minutes it took me to get through their security system. And I did not like surrendering my driver's license, even just for a minute. I also thought the personalized, with my picture, name badge was a bit over the top.

I will probably never complain about such things again!


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## NYC Composer (Dec 14, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Dec 14 said:


> Richard, you just inspired me to ASCEND into a rant against conservatism.



If this is your response today, Richard, I've taken your suggestion seriously and checked myself.

The result of that is that I'm going to think deeply about whether you're a model of conservative thought, and if I decide you are, I'll be adding a +1 to Nick's statement.


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## RiffWraith (Dec 14, 2012)

And now this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/world ... china.html

Jeez. :(


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## Alex Cuervo (Dec 14, 2012)

The way I see it - if American conservatives want to deflect the argument away from gun control by saying we need to do something about our mental health system - then let's call them on their bluff and actually do something about our broken mental healthcare system.


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## dpasdernick (Dec 14, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Dec 14 said:


> Richard, you just inspired me to ASCEND into a rant against conservatism.



Not right now Nick... at a time like this we, the safe ones, should have nothing to rant about. Only reflection or prayers... this is truly a tragedy.


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## SergeD (Dec 15, 2012)

Columbine II

The Second Amendment protects the right of the people to bear arms. I don't think they expected arms like AK-47 being sold in pawn shops at that time, 1791.

Big common sense...


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## mark812 (Dec 15, 2012)

What a tragedy. 

I couldn't agree more with this comment:



> I have never understood the gun culture in this country. It baffles me why the general public needs to have easy access to lethal weaponry, often designed and built not for sport or hunting but specifically to kill people (handguns, assault rifles).
> 
> I've heard all the arguments, and I still don't understand it. Answer me this: What positive good is there in it? I can't see any.
> 
> ...


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## wst3 (Dec 15, 2012)

Alex Cuervo @ Sat Dec 15 said:


> The way I see it - if American conservatives want to deflect the argument away from gun control by saying we need to do something about our mental health system - then let's call them on their bluff and actually do something about our broken mental healthcare system.



Well I disagree with your characterization, but dang, if that's what it take to get mental healthcare reform I'm ok with that. Nothing like treating the cause instead of the symptom!


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## chimuelo (Dec 15, 2012)

http://www.google.com/search?q=excalibu ... d=0CC8QqAI

Don't know about you guys, but I have to turn off the TV to avoid the 24/7 bang-bang bombardment, but it sure seems that these horrific events are triggering "sleeper" cells of unstable people who want this Jihadist go out in style type of death wish. 

Now that hugging your kids is over, I suggest wiring your head to your ass and start looking over your shoulder everywhere you go until the media starts backing off of this 24/7 topic. 
I fear they are only going to prolong it which will snap other unstable folks who can get to weapons. 

I wish I was wrong.


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## quantum7 (Dec 15, 2012)

RiffWraith @ Fri Dec 14 said:


> And now this:
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/world ... china.html
> 
> Jeez. :(



My God that is disturbing. 22 victims with a knife. Guns are not the problem, evil or mentally unstable PEOPLE are the problem. I own a gun just as most of my family does. Most of us are military, former military, or in law-enforcement. I teach music in elementary school. If someone came in with a machete or a crossbow and took me out first, goodbye children. Ya, maybe they would only take out half the class without a gun, but does killing 10 children with a knife make you feel any better than someone killing 20 children with an "evil" gun? We have over 30 thousand guns laws in the USA. Ya, maybe we can do better....maybe we should do better....but my God look at the ultimate root of the problem instead of going for the easy fix. Crime often goes up in countries that enact extremely tight gun control. Maybe we should take a serious look at our violent societal nature. Just my 2 cents from a responsible gun owner who loves his child and family.


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## MacQ (Dec 15, 2012)

I loathe violence and all firearms, not just handguns and assault weapons. Would I like to see all of them banned everywhere? Absolutely.

But given the choice between either new gun laws or expanded access to mental health services, I choose the latter every time. Everyone points at the guns, which is a fair point: the attack in China resulted in zero deaths. But we as a society need to first address the root of the problem.

My only hope in the aftermath of this tragedy is that the "meaningful action" Obama talked about yesterday is carried out. Mental health awareness and public funding should be a swift and bipartisan resolution. I'm a strong gun control advocate, but if we can't take the guns away, we can at least take significant steps toward mitigating the underlying violent impulses.

It's unlikely gun-obsessed America will ever be less gun-obsessed. Not when Jack Bauer can kill 268 people on-screen and be a hero for it. More likely there will be a surge of gun-sales this weekend, just like there was in the immediate aftermath of Obama's 2008 election. It's just terribly, terribly sad.


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## TheUnfinished (Dec 15, 2012)

Outside of America it can be quite difficult to understand why so many people need guns in the first place. Very few people in the UK, for instance, think "I could really do with a gun right now".

Are we lucky? Are we wrong?

But, why do Americans need guns? To protect themselves? From who? Other people with guns? How's that circle ever gonna end?

I agree that better mental health care and an end to the societal stigma attached to mental health issues needs to be adopted. People have sympathy when there's something wrong with your leg or your pancreas, but suddenly when it's a problem with your brain you're a 'wacko', a 'nutjob' or 'lazy' or something.

But why only resolve to tackle one part of the issue? Even if it is the most important factor. What's wrong with better healthcare AND less guns?


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## mark812 (Dec 15, 2012)

TheUnfinished @ Sat Dec 15 said:


> Outside of America it can be quite difficult to understand why so many people need guns in the first place. Very few people in the UK, for instance, think "I could really do with a gun right now".
> 
> Are we lucky? Are we wrong?
> 
> But, why do Americans need guns? To protect themselves? From who? Other people with guns? How's that circle ever gonna end?



Exactly. 

BTW,


> Sandy Hook elementary school gunman Adam Lanza learned to shoot from his gun-collecting mom.



And she worked in elementary school.


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## quantum7 (Dec 15, 2012)

I own several firearms and enjoy going to the range and target shooting, BUT if there were a magic wand that would remove all firearms and all deadly weapons from the world, sure I would use it. Bombs and explosives are illegal, but people make them all the time and use them. It's quite spooky how easy it is to create and homemade explosive and use it. Some people are just evil. There are no statistics that have shown the murder rates per capita going up throughout history relating to the availability of firearms. People throughout history have always murdered others well before handguns were ever thought of. One of the largest mass-murders in recent history was in Africa done with machetes. If anyone had a solution to eradicate evil from the planet it would have been done so long ago. I truly, truly wish I had the answer.


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## TheUnfinished (Dec 15, 2012)

Well... I'm not sure how relevant that machete massacre is on a number of levels.

For me the question is this... Would less people get shot if there were tighter gun controls? The evidence, in the form of other developed nations with stricter gun controls and without the same gun culture, seems to suggest that would be the case.

Why would anyone be against that?

No, you can't get rid of all violent crimes and killings. But personally I'd say that one life saved is worth it.


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## quantum7 (Dec 15, 2012)

As a gun owner and someone who respects the 2nd Amendment I am all for tighter gun control laws. I am a huge fan of very strict background checks and very hefty prison sentences for crimes used with handguns. As a society we definitely need to attempt as best possible to keep all weapons out of the hands of criminals and the mentally ill. I still believe that at a much deeper level societies are not doing enough to address problems with the mentally ill and to a larger extent not address the core issues of why people do evil. A majority of problems within human societies start on how the children are raised. All I know is that tragedies like this suck and make me not want to let my kid out of my sight. Very sad!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 15, 2012)

> Outside of America it can be quite difficult to understand why so many people need guns in the first place.



Inside America too. Believe me.

***
dpasternick, please read what Richard Ames wrote for context. You don't get my point (or NYComposer's).


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## George Caplan (Dec 15, 2012)

the gun lobby here will argue that any litigious action from government to ban guns will lead to more violent robbery against now legally adhering citizens who have handed in their guns. the chance of any kind of change in that way to any amendments banning the right bear arms is a dream and no chance of ever happening. you might as well try to ban violent video games.


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## SamGarnerStudios (Dec 15, 2012)

More people die in car wrecks and drunk driving than guns. Lets get rid of those while were at. 

Not to diminish the severeness of the tragedy that happened yesterday, but something I've always believed is that the 2nd amendment mentions nothing about safety, only our security as a free state. While I don't agree that gun control will deter crime, you can show me all the statistics and studies in the world but the 2nd amendment isn't written in a way that abides by these. As tragic as 20 something little kids being shot is, the solution is not to take away tools that the majority of people lawfully and responsibly use. If that was the case, we wouldn't have computers just incase somebody one day pulled a "Live Free or Die Hard"


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## rgames (Dec 15, 2012)

Tougher gun laws will do nothing. Go ahead and ban all guns. I don't care - I've never owned a firearm and never intend to. At least once all guns are banned and a similar event happens again we can move forward to discuss the real problem.

50 years ago, people with mental health problems were taken off the streets. Nowadays, because we don't want to fund the mental health system, those people are no longer given the protection they need. The end result is more frequent tragedies like the one in Connecticut.

rgames


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## mark812 (Dec 15, 2012)

SamGarnerStudios @ Sat Dec 15 said:


> the solution is not to take away tools that the majority of people lawfully and responsibly use.



So, guns are tools?

Off topic: I think that I accidentally pressed "report" instead of "quote" first time, so moderators, please ignore it.


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## SamGarnerStudios (Dec 15, 2012)

rgames @ Sat Dec 15 said:


> Tougher gun laws will do nothing. Go ahead and ban all guns. I don't care - I've never owned a firearm and never intend to. At least once all guns are banned and a similar event happens again we can move forward to discuss the real problem.
> 
> 50 years ago, people with mental health problems were taken off the streets. Nowadays, because we don't want to fund the mental health system, those people are no longer given the protection they need. The end result is more frequent tragedies like the one in Connecticut.
> 
> rgames



+1


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## SamGarnerStudios (Dec 15, 2012)

mark812 @ Sat Dec 15 said:


> So, guns are tools?
> 
> Off topic: I think that I accidentally pressed "report" instead of "quote" first time, so moderators, please ignore it.



I was paraphrasing a quote I read earlier today, but it more applied to the whole concept of taking things away from everyone just because some people misuse.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 15, 2012)

I just want to say for the record that I, for one, will not be responding to members who report other members posting in this thread. This is a VERY divisive and hot issue, and I won't take part in discussing it here, let alone moderating it. Be as respectful as you can be of the other side.


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## quantum7 (Dec 15, 2012)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Dec 15 said:


> I just want to say for the record that I, for one, will not be responding to members who report other members posting in this thread. This is a VERY divisive and hot issue, and I won't take part in discussing it here, let alone moderating it. Be as respectful as you can be of the other side.



Good words Ned. No matter what side of the political spectrum any of us are on, I believe that all SANE people want the same thing- less violence in society so that our loved ones can be safe. We may all have different opinions on how to achieve this, but as I said, most of us want the same thing.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 15, 2012)

Fuck the 2nd Amendment.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/index.html (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hi ... index.html)


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## RiffWraith (Dec 15, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Dec 16 said:


> f#@k the 2nd Amendment.



Ok, you sir, are not of sound mind and body.


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## RiffWraith (Dec 15, 2012)

mark812 @ Sun Dec 16 said:


> I think that I accidentally pressed "report" instead of "quote" first time, so moderators, please ignore it.





Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun Dec 16 said:


> I just want to say for the record that I, for one, will not be responding to members who report other members posting in this thread.



????


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 15, 2012)

Believe me, I'm of sound both.

We're on our way here:

http://pol.moveon.org/event/events/index.html?action_id=301 (http://pol.moveon.org/event/events/inde ... ion_id=301)


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## George Caplan (Dec 15, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Dec 15 said:


> Fuck the 2nd Amendment.
> 
> http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/index.html (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hi ... index.html)



thats all very good and well but when some hard ass fuckers up from south side la la breaks into your house with a gun and you lawfully handed yours in and you say fuck the 2nd theyre going to say fuck you as they blow your head off. or something like that.

another thing i notice a lot is we get a lot of comments from outside the us about what we should do with our laws and amendments that are all very well meaning but these well meaning people dont understand what it is to live in a country with guns and gun laws. i lived in england and just got back and they have gun laws over there that basically mean you cant have any. but trust me they still get shot and killed by guns that are unlawful. 
they have a new law being drawn up that will allow forceful action against anyone breaking into their house. in other words either party could get killed. my question on that would be killed by what? because you cant buy guns there. so youll have to use something else. like your bare hands or a knife.

you see how ridiculous the very idea of violent action coupled with specific weaponry now becomes.

of course if you could go back and in 1791 they could forsee today they would never have an amendment worded as it is with regard to guns. they would never allow smoking and alcohol consumption either and they probably would never have allowed automobiles and just about anything else.

getting rid of guns here would be great unilaterally but it would take 100 years and a lot of breaking down of doors and searching to do that.


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## schatzus (Dec 15, 2012)

I completely understand why our forefathers put "the right to bear arms" into the Constitution: At the time, people used guns to put dinner on the table and to protect their land before anything resembling local law enforcement existed. I don't think they could have been thinking of a citizen having multiple auto or semi-automatic weapons - for hunting. Time and weapon technology has changed and the laws have never kept up. Do the federal representatives really believe that "the right to bear arms" includes an AK-47?


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## RiffWraith (Dec 15, 2012)

schatzus @ Sun Dec 16 said:


> Do the federal representatives really believe that "the right to bear arms" includes an AK-47?



Does anyone out there really believe that when the assault rifle ban was in place, gun violence was drastically reduced?


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## NYC Composer (Dec 15, 2012)

Figuring out just why there seems to be a disturbingly higher frequency of these incidents lately should be the top priority. The mental health or societal issues are very troubling and unclear.

Lax gun regulations did not cause this incident-however, I cannot for the life of me understand why that woman needed a mini-arsenal, or why she would allow access to them to her reportedly mentally challenged son. That said, the NRA position on these things really disturbs me, as always. More guns are obviously the solution! I can sorta visualize some sleepy ex-cop armed guard snoozing in front of a kindergarten that has never had an incident of any sort. He'd probably never notice the guy who blew him away.

315 million people. 280 million guns. Highest number and percentage of shootings and murder of any industrialized nation. It defies logic to believe that's coincidental.

Do people really need AK-47s and multiple semi-auto handguns to protect against home invasion? Are they expecting a burglar or a tactical team? Do they hunt deer by the herd?

I am not against the right of people to own a gun, I'm actually for it. I question why they need arsenals. I question why background checks are lazy and lax. I question private person-to-person arms sales on Craigslist, Ebay, classifieds. I question why reasonable regulation of dangerous items by sane people is a bad thing.

I do not want to get rid of the Second Amendment. I want to make it more applicable to the safety of citizens in an era that has had major technological changes since it was written. There are no words written anywhere that should not be subject to reasonable review.

Yes, these discussions come up when terrible incidents of gun violence occur, even though they may not directly correlate. Yes, my feelings about these issues are passionate. That doesn't make them illogical. I don't see better gun regulation as "politics". I see them as sane and human. Much of the industrialized world agrees.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 15, 2012)

SamGarnerStudios @ Sat Dec 15 said:


> More people die in car wrecks and drunk driving than guns. Lets get rid of those while were at.



Drunks or cars?


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## chimuelo (Dec 15, 2012)

RiffWraith @ Sat Dec 15 said:


> Does anyone out there really believe that when the assault rifle ban was in place, gun violence was drastically reduced?



Nope, and the crime rate usually rises where there are gun "control" laws. Just check out Chicago. An elderly black veteran says he survived Viet Nam and doesn;t plan on getting whacked in his own home town, so he gets arrested while Louis Farakhan and Obamas bro the Mayor "clean up the city."

I do not like the fact that Assualt weapons can be purchased, and never did. Their name alone implies their use.

Right now I can just see the far left Crime Family telling their pundints to carry the story over for weeks and weeks, as this will definately get some shakedown cash for campiagns from the NRA lobby.
It's a far left Crime Family tactic mastered by Harry Reid.

Here in Nevada prostitution is legal and regulated by the state, and the capital itself has the finest looking porn stars with appointment lists longer than most doctors.
But Harry every now and then will stand up and read a script about the evils of prostitution, and how it must be banned.......
Then you never hear about it again until the next election cycle. 
But the Brothel owners are accustomed to the Mafia shakedown, and send in their campaign "donations", and when combined with our Union dues, becomes quite a warchest.

But I tend to agree with some of the foot soldiers of the far left Crime Family. Make harsh, and I mean harsh laws for being caught with said weapons, especially if they have a loaded clip within 50 feet, and just stop selling them.

Defense and hunting do not require Grenades, RPGs or Assault Rifles converted to fully auto by filing down a searing pin.

Besides, Mans soul cannot LEE-IVV on Shrimps, Clams and Poke Chops.
Reverend Jesse Jackson Jr. Champion of the people of Illinois where the 200 Billion USD debt and highest murder rate in the nations history ensure politicians a long and properous career as they dismantle the problems over a 40 year period.


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## rgames (Dec 15, 2012)

To anyone who thinks access to guns has anything to do with gun violence: 

Question: where do people have the most access to guns?

Answer: gun shows and shooting ranges.

Next question: when was the last time anyone committed a mass murder at a gun show or shooting range?

Answer: never.

Therefore, it stands to reason that access to guns has nothing to do with gun violence.

Now let's ask another question: How often do mass murders occur as a result of people who needed mental health treatment but didn't get it?

Answer: in nearly every instance.

So, which issue is the more logical one to address if your goal is to reduce the occurrence of mass murders?

rgames


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## NYC Composer (Dec 15, 2012)

To anyone who thinks access to guns has anything to do with gun violence: 

Question: where do people have the most access to guns?

Answer: The United States

Next question: when was the last time anyone committed a mass murder in the United States?

Answer: a few days ago.

Therefore, it stands to reason that unreasonable access and encouragement of the ownership of guns has everything to do with gun violence.

Now let's ask another question: How often do mass murders occur as a result of people who needed mental health treatment but didn't get it?

Answer: in nearly every instance.

So, which issue is the more logical one to address if your goal is to reduce the occurrence of mass murders?

Answer-both.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 15, 2012)

> thats all very good and well but when some hard ass fuckers up from south side la la breaks into your house with a gun and you lawfully handed yours in and you say fuck the 2nd theyre going to say fuck you as they blow your head off. or something like that.



I can tell you with 100% certainty that's not going to happen.

The reason is that I've never had a gun to turn in, nor will I ever get one. I hate guns.

Musical instruments are far more appealing to me.


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## quantum7 (Dec 15, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Dec 15 said:


> > thats all very good and well but when some hard ass fuckers up from south side la la breaks into your house with a gun and you lawfully handed yours in and you say fuck the 2nd theyre going to say fuck you as they blow your head off. or something like that.
> 
> 
> 
> I can tell you with 100% certainty that's not going to happen.



You are lucky then to live in a much better neighborhood then when I lived in SoCal many years ago. The only reason I was able to sleep back then was knowing that I had my .45 to protect me from some "hard-ass fuckers from the south-side". I'm glad I lived in that neighborhood, though, because it drove me to joining the Army....which was the best thing I ever did for myself back then. Don't feel the need for one now, though, living in safe Boise, Idaho, but it is fun to go out with my father and target-shoot. Great father-son bonding time.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 15, 2012)

quantum7 @ Sun Dec 16 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > > thats all very good and well but when some hard ass fuckers up from south side la la breaks into your house with a gun and you lawfully handed yours in and you say f#@k the 2nd theyre going to say f#@k you as they blow your head off. or something like that.
> ...



Funny-I've lived in dangerous NYC for 33 years with no gun and I've never lost any sleep. I've always kept a Louisville Slugger around though-hey, maybe you and your dad can have a catch!

Btw, speaking of safe Boise, Idaho-I grew up in bucolic, safe Binghamton, New York.
Couple years ago, there was a 13 person massacre there-crazy guy with a gun. Beware.

Thank you for your service. My son just finished AIT at Huachuca.. Where were you stationed?


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## quantum7 (Dec 15, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sat Dec 15 said:


> quantum7 @ Sun Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Dec 15 said:
> ...



I lost sleep because I had Mexican gang-bangers in the neighborhood (no offense to Mexicans, I am half Mexican). I swear there must have been a shooting or a drug bust nearly every week. 

I went to Basic Training in Ft. Leonardwood, MO, AIT in Ft. Jackson, SC and was stationed at Ft. Stewart, GA and participated in Operation Desert Shield & Storm in 90'-91'. You are welcome and please thank your son for his service.


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## RiffWraith (Dec 15, 2012)

quantum7 @ Sun Dec 16 said:


> Thank you for your service.



I'll second that - and that goes to your son as well, Larry.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 15, 2012)

quantum7 @ Sun Dec 16 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sat Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > quantum7 @ Sun Dec 16 said:
> ...



Gangbangers=not good.

My son did basic at Jackson-lovely town, Columbia (not so much, really)

He said they call it "Relaxin' Jackson"-but he didn't quite agree: )


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## rgames (Dec 15, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sat Dec 15 said:


> Question: where do people have the most access to guns?
> 
> Answer: The United States


False.

Let's take the example of just one country: pretty much every young male in Switzerland is given a gun as part of mandatory military service. They're required to keep them with them even when they're not on any type of military duty. Many other countries do the same. Does every young male in the US get a free gun? No, therefore your statement is clearly in error.

What, pray tell, could possibly explain the difference in gun violence? Young men are the most violent abusers of guns, so how can you give every young man a gun and not have mass killings every day?

(Hint - see above)

Again, outlaw all guns if you want to. It's a complete waste of time. But since so many people seem so hard up to do it - go for it. It's just like taxes on high income earners: it will have near-zero impact on the problem it claims to address but it's an issue spoon-fed by the talking heads, so everyone regurgitates it.

So sure - do it. Just make sure you acknowledge that it had no effect the next time there's a mass shooting.

Why not spend time focusing on activities that will make a difference?

I don't disapprove of tougher gun laws. You want them - fine. Go get them. I won't waste any effort stopping you. Just quit wasting everyone else's time on something that will have near-zero impact.

There are much better uses of time and political capital.

rgames


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## NYC Composer (Dec 16, 2012)

rgames @ Sun Dec 16 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sat Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Question: where do people have the most access to guns?
> ...



Do all young women in Switzerland have guns as well? That's the only way the ratio could possibly work.

Of course you don't disapprove of tougher guns laws. That's why you spend so much of your time railing against them.


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## Udo (Dec 16, 2012)

rgames @ Sun Dec 16 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sat Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Question: where do people have the most access to guns?
> ...


The Swiss Govt decided 5 years ago that the distribution of ammunition to soldiers at home should stop and all previously issued ammo had to be returned. Only rapid deployment units and military police still have ammo stored at home.


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## TheUnfinished (Dec 16, 2012)

rgames @ Sun Dec 16 said:


> To anyone who thinks access to guns has anything to do with gun violence:
> 
> Question: where do people have the most access to guns?
> 
> ...


That may be the single worst argument I've ever read on any subject on VI Control.


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## Lex (Dec 16, 2012)

Few questions for my US colleagues and friends, to help me understand things better.

-If the gun laws are not the problem ,and the fact is that US yearly has more firearm murders then whole EU put together and near the same as an lawless, war torn African state, then what is the problem? Are you saying that people in US simply like to kill other people more? It's part of the culture? I don't understand.

-What is the point of allowing so many people to have so many weapons at home if they can't carry them outside? I mean, obviously people over there are armed to the teeth with assault rifles and if you are not taking them to work, school, bus, metro, restaurant, movie theater, then what's the point? How are you protecting yourself? 


Someone mentioned here that a terrible school attack also happened in China few days ago. Differences to the one in US:
-the massacre was committed with a knife, not a semi automatic assault rifle. 
-all of the 22 victims survived

Terrible, terrible things we people do...

alex


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## mark812 (Dec 16, 2012)

rgames @ Sat Dec 15 said:


> To anyone who thinks access to guns has anything to do with gun violence:
> 
> Question: where do people have the most access to guns?
> 
> ...



And where did Columbine massacre killers buy bullets? At K-Mart.

Anyway, how many gunshot deaths occur every year in most European countries? Under 100. Australia? Under 100. Canada? Under 100. 'Merica? Under..no, wait. Over 12000. But yeah, there's nothing wrong. Also, a fun fact - there are 7, 8 milion registered guns in Canada. And yet..gunshot victim rate is so low. Why's that?

And just wanted to add this: normal people don't have the need to buy firearms. Guns don't have any normal purpose, except for killing people. 

Mother of that psychopath who killed all those children wasn't a normal person. Gun collecting teacher who enjoyed shooting and guns and who took her mentally ill son shooting?


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## NYC Composer (Dec 16, 2012)

rgames @ Sun Dec 16 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sat Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Question: where do people have the most access to guns?
> ...



http://www.businessinsider.com/switzerl ... ng-2012-12

Damn these leftist rags- they've probably led me astray again.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 16, 2012)

George Caplan @ Sat Dec 15 said:


> question on that would be killed by what? because you cant buy guns there. so youll have to use something else. like your bare hands or a knife.



Given the recent knife wielding madman in China who killed no one, the irony of George's quote was too good to pass up. I tried to summon up my better angel, but it seems I don't have one (sigh)


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2012)

It is simple. Sick and bad people are going to do bad things with guns. While we cannot make it impossible for them to get automatic weapons, we CAN make it easier or harder.

I vote for the latter.


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## George Caplan (Dec 16, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun Dec 16 said:


> George Caplan @ Sat Dec 15 said:
> 
> 
> > question on that would be killed by what? because you cant buy guns there. so youll have to use something else. like your bare hands or a knife.
> ...



there was a case in the uk of a guy who went into a kids school with a machete and a female teacher got in the way and took a lot of injury. brave woman. turned out the guy had schizophrenia. 

the word access is what makes it probably the us. in terms of percentage population who actually have a gun its probably not the us but somewhere like yemen or borderland afghanistan/pakistan. maybe israel. 

this insane incident in fairfield county will happen again somewhere in the world. i recall the hungerford incident. no guns allowed in the uk but this guy managed to get automatic weapons and kill 16 people. if someone loses touch with reality completely guns gun laws amendments politics any of that shit doesnt matter.


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## quantum7 (Dec 16, 2012)

Look what happened in Norway last year. I understand that they have some of the tightest gun laws around. As I stated earlier I don't mind stricter gun laws. I don't mind going through more regulations as long as sane and law-abiding citizens still have their constitutional rights, but at the same time we had better as a society address our culture of violence.


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## givemenoughrope (Dec 16, 2012)

SamGarnerStudios @ Sat Dec 15 said:


> More people die in car wrecks and drunk driving than guns. Lets get rid of those while were at.



Let's get rid of the internet b/c of strawman arguments. Cars are used for getting around. Guns are used to shoot things, namely people. 

Who needs a gun in 2013? Seriously. No guns. Period.


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## choc0thrax (Dec 16, 2012)

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/opini ... .html?_r=0


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## chimuelo (Dec 16, 2012)

mark812 @ Sun Dec 16 said:


> And just wanted to add this: normal people don't have the need to buy firearms. Guns don't have any normal purpose, except for killing people.




I hope you can make a bow and arrow and know how to at least fish.
Your politicians and Police will run as they did in Katrina. They cannot protect you or feed you, when the trucks stop rolling, being a Conservationalist I'll be happy to share my quarry with the Non Gun believers as they wander the countryside looking for those they once worshipped and thought were there to take care of them....

But my family is of the utmost concern to me, not just myself. 

I understand the hatred of guns, but they are for many other things than concealment and Assault rifles.

FWIW Large Dill Pickles and canned Tuna can last you a long time as you wait for your absentee Landlord. Pickles are a source of water and according to many International studies are one of the 3 superfoods, along w/ Red Bell Peppers and Brown Mushrooms.
Also stay off of the main roads and have an escape route to an area where you get out of the urban areas, as every Brotha I know is heavily armed, and most Mexicans I know buy a gun as soon as they hit the States.

They actually could get really exotic automatic weapons and sniper rifles from Eric Holder if they wait long enough, but I think they don't mind buying their own and registering it properly.

Normal people as you say are good people, kind and trusting folks, but they will be the first to perish since they believe the all knowing all powerful elites in DC are there to serve and protect...............(themselves)

Chance favors the Prepared Mind....


Nice article Choco, at least they can try, especially since both Crime Families in DC attach themselves like parasites to the NRA host.
The NRA should actually get out in front of this and offer some ideas instead of giving these wealthy Liberals and Conservatives even more cash.


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## TheUnfinished (Dec 16, 2012)

I hope that was all tongue-in-cheek internet talk, because frankly it would worry me that someone who actually believed what you just wrote also had access to deadly weapons. It was a bit craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazeh.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 16, 2012)

George Caplan @ Sun Dec 16 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > George Caplan @ Sat Dec 15 said:
> ...



You are missing the point, George. Man in U.S. goes berserk with a gun in a schoolroom- 26 dead. Man goes berserk in China with a knife- no one dead.


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## José Herring (Dec 16, 2012)

That's exactly the point that the Pro gun people don't want to face. Larry is exactly right.

Nobody I think is advocating taking fire arms away from people. But limiting the access of the guns that are available.

Let's take a look at the recent shootings. Every one of them that I can remember, the guns were purchased legally.

So the true debate will be what kinds of guns can be purchased legally.

If the guy had only single shot hand guns, it wouldn't stop him, but would give people at least a chance to fight back limiting the damage.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 16, 2012)

And what Jay says sums it up.

My wife and I went to a vigil put on by MoveOn.org last night, and I was the first person who spoke.

Basically what I said is that I have nothing to say - and that's the point. We've all heard the arguments before, over and over. There are lots of reasons people say they need guns - freedom, whatever the hell it is - and the arguments all fit on a bumper sticker and they're all ludicrous.

There is no earthly reason we need access to massive stockpiles of ammunition or assault weapons. So what if getting rid of that isn't going to solve the whole problem.

This happens over and over every three months, and I'm really hoping that this time will be the time we finally do something about it.

My wife is working to stage the equivalent of the Million Mom March (although it'll have a different name).


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## NYC Composer (Dec 16, 2012)

chimuelo @ Sun Dec 16 said:


> mark812 @ Sun Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > And just wanted to add this: normal people don't have the need to buy firearms. Guns don't have any normal purpose, except for killing people.
> ...



Devastating events during which the rule of law vanishes (such as Katrina) do happen.
They are few and far between in industrialized nations, but they do occur. So ok, you have your survivalist food, your flashlights, iodine tablets, duct tape and guns to protect your home and family. But you don't feel safe enough with a normal handgun, so you have a few semi-autos. And an assault rifle. Two, actually- one for your wife or oldest son. You stock up with a few hundred rounds. You never know.

So now you have an arsenal....a collection of deadly weapons to protect your family against a once in a lifetime event. Not only you, but every marginally sane (or not) person in the U.S. as an equivalent gun cabinet.

Tell me this:from an overall safety standpoint on a day to day basis, does that idea really make you feel warm and fuzzy and safe?


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## rgames (Dec 16, 2012)

The gun control debate, like so many others, is driven more by the desire to pit people against each other than it is about wanting to have a real impact on society.

It makes good TV. Makes for great news coverage. Makes for great blog posts. Makes for great snark factor on people's Facebook pages. Why? Well, because, of course, there is no way to prove that it has any impact on anything. So people can argue endlessly about it. The talking heads get to hear their own voices ad nauseum. The regurgitators then regurgitate it to each other.

We have a government that does nothing because that's what the people want - endless banter that produces absolutely zero progress. I don't think anyone actually cares about gun control laws. They care about being able to argue about them.

Nobody with half a brain cell can argue that addressing issues like mental health and poverty are better uses of time because:

1. They have impact *far* beyond preventing gun violence
2. They are politically achievable

#2 is the real reason the discussion never goes there. If the problem is solved, you can't continue to post snarky commentary on your Facebook page, can you?

But hey, go for it. Like I said, I'm not against tighter gun control. In the end, if you succeed (not likely), you'll have spent millions of man hours to achieve a result that will address a tiny piece of the problem.

Is that really in the best interest of humanity?

rgames


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 16, 2012)

That is just a silly statement. No one who is a flesh and blood human being, especially a parent, with "half a brain" and half a heart can watch what has happened and want "endless banter that produces absolutely zero progress."


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## José Herring (Dec 16, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Dec 16 said:


> That is just a silly statement. No one who is a flesh and blood human being, especially a parent, with "half a brain" and half a heart can watch what has happened and want "endless banter that produces absolutely zero progress."



+1

Waste of time debating in my opinion. It's clear what needs to be done.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 16, 2012)

rgames @ Sun Dec 16 said:


> But hey, go for it. Like I said, I'm not against tighter gun control. In the end, if you succeed (not likely), you'll have spent millions of man hours to achieve a result that will address a tiny piece of the problem.
> 
> Is that really in the best interest of humanity?
> 
> rgames



You know, every time I read one of your posts, I am touched by your deep empathy and compassion for the "best interests of humanity". I'm starting to think you see stop signs as creeping governmental control of our personal liberties.

"but hey, go for it". Wise words. Thank you for helping galvanize me into action.


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## chimuelo (Dec 16, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun Dec 16 said:


> Tell me this:from an overall safety standpoint on a day to day basis, does that idea really make you feel warm and fuzzy and safe?



This is not the case, I simply know already how the containment of the population in my area is going to be implemented, as the Freedom Of Information Act and secret.org have given us the information, and even then they claim it's a 48 hour time period, I think it's going to happen immediately as roads will be blocked, but they can't enforce the trails and routes I know.

http://www.democratsagainstunagenda21.com/index.html

So if they are preparing for this, chances are they know whats coming down the Pipe. 

Sounds paranoid, and I agree, but I didn't write up Agenda 21 and I sure don't have the cash the 2 Crime Families in DC have as they own sections of old underground Missile Silos that were disarmed, and can sustain themselves for a year with treated ventilation, radiation and chemical protection, etc.

I suggest you read the document from the UN website, but instead of giving you a whacko Doomsday Preppers profiteering site, I figured you would be more comforatable with a Liberal blog.

FWIW, these folks are parroting what the UN "WANTS" to do, but I can assure you I have read documents from George Knapp, the Conspiracy whacko who forced our Federal Government to admit many illegal programs and secret facilities here in Nevada. Area 51 just to name one. Another is Yucca Mountain. But his documents I tend to believe as he is an investigative journalist, not an MSNBC or Faux news Parrot/Stenographer.

I'm not a whacko, I just don't trust the Feds and actually have no need for their various enslavement traps.
FWIW I own hunting rifles and quail/pheasant/Chuckerbird shotguns, not pistols or assault rifles. 
And I survived 2 Social Collapses already and was in a neighborhood where we had 50 gallons of water for Molotov cocktails when they hit, and boarded up windows with rifle slots, so I have seen first hand what happens when people gather in a mob to go pillage during a time when police are busy elsewhere until the National Guard arrives.

I will be warm and fuzzy when I know I have done all I can to ensure my loved ones safety.

Chances are we will be fine as San Juaquin Valley and the great plains can easily harvest the new GM crops that can grow in drought conditions, but there will be a period of turmoil, so just read what the elites have decided to do with the rest of us, then at least you can make an informed decision of it's validity.

Peace Through Knowledge


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## RiffWraith (Dec 16, 2012)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dsV6TCwd0o

Just curious - how many of you (whichever side of the aisle you are on) think that without this guy _and his gun_, more people would have died that day....


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 16, 2012)

+1 to Jose.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 16, 2012)

chimuelo @ Mon Dec 17 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun Dec 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Tell me this:from an overall safety standpoint on a day to day basis, does that idea really make you feel warm and fuzzy and safe?
> ...



Jim- you did'nt respond to the point I made. I'd appreciate a direct and brief response to the either/or. Also, I never called you a wacko, nor do I think you are. Maybe just a bit of a conspiracy theorist? :wink: 

You also don't know much about me if you think I'd be "more comfortable with a liberal blog". Like you, I read everything- I've just come to different conclusions.

FYI- my wife was working within a few hundred feet of the Twin Towers during both bombings. She ran home through pieces of bodies and saw people jump. As a result, she's a survivalist. We have go-packs, iodie, about 50 flashlights, crank radios, 30 days worth of food at all times, a LOT of crap.. She might like a gun for security as well- she wrestles with it. I don't oppose her. During that period of time, and it was a good while, there were massive black outs for a good while and lots of opportunity for looting and general mayhem. It didn't happen to any appreciable degree, nor did it during Sandi, nor the many other blackouts we've had. Could it have? Yes. Do I think it is reasonable for people to feel a bit more assured if they hae a weapon for home protection? Sure. Do I think a great many people shoud be building up mini- arsenals? HELL no.

My concern is the unbelievable proliferation of weaponry among your fellow citizens. If that's a warm and fuzzy factoid for you, we'll just agree to disagree. In m opinion, massacres of children with automatic weapons are good times for reflection about where we've been as a country and where we're going. I dont see the murder of children or discussion of the stockpiling weaponry as "politics".

Re the Second Amendment, btw- what constitutes "arms" in 2012? If there is no infringement allowed, isn't a hand grenade "arms"? What about if I mine my lawn with the modern equivalent of Claymores, with huge "no trespassing " signs? The Amendment insists on no restrictions- so it leaves open the possibility of an arms race among citizens.


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## choc0thrax (Dec 16, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Mon Dec 17 said:


> Re the Second Amendment, btw- what constitutes "arms" in 2012? If there is no infringement allowed, isn't a hand grenade "arms"? What about if I mine my lawn with the modern equivalent of Claymores, with huge "no trespassing " signs? The Amendment insists on no restrictions- so it leaves open the possibility of an arms race among citizens.



The mines themselves are okay but digging up your yard would probably infringe on some strict lawn regulation. Proceed with caution.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 17, 2012)

choc0thrax @ Mon Dec 17 said:


> NYC Composer @ Mon Dec 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Re the Second Amendment, btw- what constitutes "arms" in 2012? If there is no infringement allowed, isn't a hand grenade "arms"? What about if I mine my lawn with the modern equivalent of Claymores, with huge "no trespassing " signs? The Amendment insists on no restrictions- so it leaves open the possibility of an arms race among citizens.
> ...



I have a feeling that strategically placed monkeys in Marlboro Man coats would act as an effective deterrent.


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## Lex (Dec 17, 2012)

rgames @ Mon Dec 17 said:


> The gun control debate, like so many others, is driven more by the desire to pit people against each other than it is about wanting to have a real impact on society.
> 
> It makes good TV. Makes for great news coverage. Makes for great blog posts. Makes for great snark factor on people's Facebook pages. Why? Well, because, of course, there is no way to prove that it has any impact on anything. So people can argue endlessly about it. The talking heads get to hear their own voices ad nauseum. The regurgitators then regurgitate it to each other.
> 
> ...



Wow...no wonder things are the way they are over there.

alex


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## Waywyn (Dec 17, 2012)

Some comments here left me speechless. All I have to say is that shit happens everywhere, with or without guns allowed and obviously this will never change.

However, if you really think you need a gun (or even assault weapons) at home you either are overafraid of something, you need some penis extension, you got an inferiority complex to compesate, you feel much more mighty with a killing device as if this would give you more control and power on life/death or you simply forgot that guns don't save your life, but your willingness to kill someone! ... but then again, what about the rest of your life. You successfully saved your family but you blew someones head off? Good luck living with that brave moment you will always remember when parts of that guys brain spread upon your walls!

I seriously can't believe that I got declared with an IQ of 5 by stating that I love ego shooting games, but simply hate real weapons and would never even touch one, while some of you are simply ready to kill in real life.

The thing I can't realize at all is, that there wouldn't be anything to be afraid of, if guns wouldn't be allowed. Thank your country which indoctrinated you with fear so much you are truly convinced that you need a gun to "be prepared" (to kill someone).


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## Waywyn (Dec 17, 2012)

One more thing I can't hold back right now. In the U.S. especially it is always the Lords will, when actor X dies, it was the Lords will, when grandma passed away, it was the Lords will when mum gave birth to a healthy child, it was the Lords will when Tebow goaled, when another kid died during a complicated surgery or when 30 miners got rescued from a mine ... suddenly a mad guy blasts away 20 kinds but all "you" say is ... we need more guns! Fascinating!


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## SergeD (Dec 17, 2012)

Canada,

Be prepared to welcome a huge number of American citizens in the next 20 years.

Here, hard winters cool down people.


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## chimuelo (Dec 17, 2012)

Larry I thought I answered the warm and fuzzy question, but in case you didn't finished reading the response I said I will be warm and fuzzy when my family is safe, and to hunker down in some urban area waiting for FEMA or the Lords of DC to take care of me, won't happen.
Southern Nevadas weather will kill people w/o air conditioning that are elderly or young, so I will grab my mother and her lovely little old neighbor, my wife and kid, and go do what I have been doing all of my life anyways.......Hunt and Fish.
I have grown my own Tomatoes as I hate the GM versions at the peasants Grocery outlets, and I rarely eat processed meat unless it's Grass Fed.
Chicken, Beef and Pork are filled with Steroid, and antibiotics which actually are the reason some people get sick and they don't know why they can't get better as their antibiotics seem to be ineffective. The FDA is like DC, big Pharma jams through Byeta, Statins and so many other drugs and patents from Mosanto for GM crops there's no way they took time to study any side effects.
They do try to make food safe, but how many outbreaks have we seen from Produce and livestock in the last 2 decades..?
Besides I will live in comfort as we have our own energy as I bought a Solar Trailer 2 years ago when Solar was a good investment as Solyndra dropped the value of many great Solar products. It can soak in Sun in one day that not only generates immediate power for my PCs and synths, but everything else throughout the evening.
You see how nasty and viscious thes politicians are just to keep their powerful seats during an election, the lies the decietful tactics, etc. So to think when some global or national disasters come our way they will suddenly start telling the truth is a pipe dream.
Tell wifey she's a smart cookie, as I have other friend in NYC who have seen the blackouts and 911 and yes the first responers of NYC are an amazing bunch of people, I trust them more than any foot soldier in either of the Crime Families in DC, so you are lucky there.
But the scariest part is the National Emergency Radio Messages that will tell citizens to stay in their homes, and not leave.
If you hear that you should know it's the exact opposite of what you should do...

Again, just read the dozens of PDFs that have been amended over a 20 year period on this stupid Agenda 21, and ask yourself who will be exempted from these giant Corrals they create....?

No conspiracy theory, just common instincts and decades of watching these scoundrels and their quarterly meetings on where they fly private jets and limos to, just to decide what to do with the rest of us.

I did see Danny DeVito kill a Deer with a handgun in the Jimmy Hoffa movie, but I consider Hollywood and DC to be the same as their gig is to lie for a living, the difference being that Hollywoods liars are capable of memorizing their scripts.
In KY. which is a Democratic State, but old style DNC, not the latest Santa Claus types, is going to see Ashley Judd take down Mitch McConnell. I look forward to that, as I have siad for years women have a better head on thier shoulders, and a higher threshold for pain as they have the instincts to bear children, and besides, when we deal with foreign diplomats, they must be tired of old white guys every century.
We need to get hip and use fine trim to distract them.

Have you seen those georgeous creatures Pakistan sends here to continue diplomatic relations....??
Day--amn, and they are even covered with those blankets, sheets and hoods.


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## George Caplan (Dec 17, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Dec 16 said:


> "endless banter that produces absolutely zero progress."



endless banter is what were all going to get for the foreseeable. zero progress may be an overstatement. there is a chance that a bill may preclude assault weapons and good if that happens. all for that.

hand guns. not a chance in the united states of america. not any chance at all. automatic semi automatic. doesnt matter. if its a hand gun its a hand gun and those are here to stay.

one of my sons called me up from the uk today and the media all over the world seems to be telling us what to do with our gun laws. thats another thing thats not going to happen any time soon either. so keep up the endless media banter.

i tell you the thing that really got me was when i was in my hotel room just recently when this happened the british tv channel said breaking news about the incident and then after 2 minutes broke out of it to report sports. sports ok. this media frenzy will come to an end and this gun law talk will be another forgotten issue.


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## quantum7 (Dec 17, 2012)

Interesting article about the Hollywood backlash on violence in TV and film: http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/20 ... p=features

Are children becoming desensitized with all the violence in the media? I went back to school and received a BA in sociology 5 years ago and wrote a paper on violence in media and the desensitizing effect it can have on children. For my research I had to watch a couple of violent films that were at the time considered some of the most disturbing. Hostel 1 or 2 (I can't remember which one) was one of the movies I had the displeasure of viewing. Even weeks after watching the movie I felt sick and couldn't get some of the film's vile imagery out of my head. Many teenagers watch these types of films all the time unfortunately....and they really enjoy it. Along with other media, including violent video games, I honestly believe that these have a desensitizing effect on our population....especially the young and impressionable. 

I am curious to hear what others think about this.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 17, 2012)

quantum7 @ Mon Dec 17 said:


> Interesting article about the Hollywood backlash on violence in TV and film: http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/20 ... p=features
> 
> Are children becoming desensitized with all the violence in the media? I went back to school and received a BA in sociology 5 years ago and wrote a paper on violence in media and the desensitizing effect it can have on children. For my research I had to watch a couple of violent films that were at the time considered some of the most disturbing. Hostel 1 or 2 (I can't remember which one) was one of the movies I had the displeasure of viewing. Even weeks after watching the movie I felt sick and couldn't get some of the film's vile imagery out of my head. Many teenagers watch these types of films all the time unfortunately....and they really enjoy it. Along with other media, including violent video games, I honestly believe that these have a desensitizing effect on our population....especially the young and impressionable.
> 
> I am curious to hear what others think about this.



Not responding to the central question ( I'm just not sure) but my 22 year old son in the military agree on two movies neither of us could watch all the way through- Hostel and Funny Games.


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## Waywyn (Dec 17, 2012)

quantum7 @ Mon Dec 17 said:


> Interesting article about the Hollywood backlash on violence in TV and film: http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/20 ... p=features
> 
> Are children becoming desensitized with all the violence in the media? I went back to school and received a BA in sociology 5 years ago and wrote a paper on violence in media and the desensitizing effect it can have on children. For my research I had to watch a couple of violent films that were at the time considered some of the most disturbing. Hostel 1 or 2 (I can't remember which one) was one of the movies I had the displeasure of viewing. Even weeks after watching the movie I felt sick and couldn't get some of the film's vile imagery out of my head. Many teenagers watch these types of films all the time unfortunately....and they really enjoy it. Along with other media, including violent video games, I honestly believe that these have a desensitizing effect on our population....especially the young and impressionable.
> 
> I am curious to hear what others think about this.



The short answer is NO!
Let's break it down for a moment and I honestly don't know why this in the year 2012 is still of matter. Obviously as you wrote, "you believe" and this is the big mistake, believing something, doesn't mean that it is true ... and this endless discussion about media making kids violent or making killers out of them over a long time period is simply not true!

It is obvious that kids or humans in general who are violent, agressive, etc. are attracted by violent stuff. They watch violent movies, play violent games, torture little animals BECAUSE already something has happened in their past. May it be abuse, may it be something which got never solved in their little brains ...

BUT noone never ever got on a rampage only because he/she was watching horror movies or was playing ego shooters. Besides that I am terribly sorry, that you are not posting several studies but just some Fox news article. This is sad. This is as if we are about discussing evolution and you show me links from a creationists forum!

Sorry I have to say this, but I am working in the game industry, I am playing games since I am 9 years old, as many of my friends. I am not the brightest candle on this cake but I surely can say that if games, especially ego shooters would affect the brain to be violent, I must be the most horrific mass murder walking this solar system!

Media in general is NOT and will never be the trigger for violent acts. It is ALWAYS something which happened before ...

Furthermore I seriously can NOT understand why this special topic about violent media is being mentioned EVERYTIME when it comes to talk about guns.
I am really sorry to say this but this just a lame, disgusting and pretty excuse to justify keeping ones penis enlargment killing tools!


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## José Herring (Dec 17, 2012)

quantum7 @ Mon Dec 17 said:


> Interesting article about the Hollywood backlash on violence in TV and film: http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/20 ... p=features
> 
> Are children becoming desensitized with all the violence in the media? I went back to school and received a BA in sociology 5 years ago and wrote a paper on violence in media and the desensitizing effect it can have on children. For my research I had to watch a couple of violent films that were at the time considered some of the most disturbing. Hostel 1 or 2 (I can't remember which one) was one of the movies I had the displeasure of viewing. Even weeks after watching the movie I felt sick and couldn't get some of the film's vile imagery out of my head. Many teenagers watch these types of films all the time unfortunately....and they really enjoy it. Along with other media, including violent video games, I honestly believe that these have a desensitizing effect on our population....especially the young and impressionable.
> 
> I am curious to hear what others think about this.



They do. It's something we as parents really have to watch.

When my son was younger. He went through a period of acting up in school. Trying to solve problems with fighting, ect... He was only 7 back then and my normally very bright, very sweet kid was giving me headaches.

Trying to find the cause of such behavior I realized that kind of without paying too much attention I had let him see some cartoons that had a lot of violence in them. I don't remember which ones. I was careless and let that slip into his up until then carefully selected entertainment.

The problem went away the moment I stopped letting him watch that crap.

Now that he's 11 I of course let him watch a little bit more, but he's also gotten very good at policing himself. He asked to watch the new batman movies. The one with the Joker in it. He was a huge batman fan at this point. Spending hours playing with his lego batman figures, ect... About 1/2 way through the film we stopped it. He went to bed. The next night I asked if he wanted to finish it. He said no. He thought the Joker was too crazy, and that Batman was too dark angry and brooding and he didn't enjoy it.

Later when talking to him, I found out that the batman of his imagination was good, brave and strong and he couldn't jive with the conflicted, weak angry batman. 

Good for him. :D 

So the impact of entertainment on the developing mind is not insubstancial. In the absence of any real religion to regulate behavior young people and dim witted adults take their clues from the media. In a sense it's become the opiate of the masses that religion use to be. But this opiate is Godless and only follows the dollar most of the time.

So we as parents need to be a bigger influence than the media. But unfortunately. Too many parents aren't up to the task.

The Columbine shooting was inspired by Basketball Diaries. The movie Heat inspired the North Hollywood Shootout. The list goes on and on.

Not saying these things wouldn't have happened without media influence. But I am saying that these criminals wouldn't have been as clever or effective without that "inspiration".

I think probably part of the problem that I've had in Hollywood (besides my obvious lack of talent and musical skill) is that I really do have a problem with a lot that is made just on a personal level. I've never been one that can shut out the business from the personal. And, I've felt very guilty over some of the things that I've worked on just because morally they offered up no value to society and sometimes impacted people in a negative way. Well at least the handful of people that have seen the films I've scored. :lol:


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## José Herring (Dec 17, 2012)

Waywyn @ Mon Dec 17 said:


> quantum7 @ Mon Dec 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting article about the Hollywood backlash on violence in TV and film: http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/20 ... p=features
> ...



They have a term in America. Whistling past the grave yard. It may not have effected you but it certain can have a negative impact on other kids. Believe me, I don't believe it. I can see it.


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## Waywyn (Dec 17, 2012)

josejherring @ Mon Dec 17 said:


> When my son was younger. He went through a period of acting up in school. Trying to solve problems with fighting, ect... He was only 7 back then and my normally very bright, very sweet kid was giving me headaches.
> 
> Trying to find the cause of such behavior I realized that kind of without paying too much attention I had let him see some cartoons that had a lot of violence in them.



Jose, I don't hope to be rude, but I am just a honest guy. If you let your son watch/read violent comics at the age of 7. It wasn't that comic who made him aggressive, it was NOTHING than the education and his young brain missinterpreting these comics.
For sure parents cannot observe their kids 24/7, but there should be a strict limit about what kids read, watch, play or listen to ... and to be honest, I would never grant my kid violent stuff at the age of 7!


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## Waywyn (Dec 17, 2012)

josejherring @ Mon Dec 17 said:


> Waywyn @ Mon Dec 17 said:
> 
> 
> > quantum7 @ Mon Dec 17 said:
> ...



Jose, it is obvious that lots of violent games etc. make kids more aggressive, but that doesn't mean that they are becoming potential killers. As said, I play games for a long time now. I am now 37 and I don't even know how to unsafe a gun! This stuff you don't learn in games. This stuff you learn when your parents teach you shooting!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 17, 2012)

Constant exposure to violence on TV must have some desensitizing effect. It's not the big fish, but for example where did the guy who shot up the theater get the idea to outfit himself for combat?

I don't know how you reconcile that with freedom of speech, however.

Does "for openers I'm going to kill you nigga nigga bitch ho bitch ho" stuff encourage violence, or is it just a reflection? What about war films? Who the frick knows, but I don't think there's a way to change that.

Meanwhile, our gun regulations are clearly too lax.


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## José Herring (Dec 17, 2012)

Waywyn @ Mon Dec 17 said:


> josejherring @ Mon Dec 17 said:
> 
> 
> > When my son was younger. He went through a period of acting up in school. Trying to solve problems with fighting, ect... He was only 7 back then and my normally very bright, very sweet kid was giving me headaches.
> ...



You aren't being rude.

But you have to understand that it wasn't that violent. It was pretty normal stuff marketed towards young people his age. I didn't think much of it until I saw the effect it had on his behavior. Very specifically it was this: http://bionicle.lego.com/en-US/default.aspx


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## José Herring (Dec 17, 2012)

Waywyn @ Mon Dec 17 said:


> josejherring @ Mon Dec 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Waywyn @ Mon Dec 17 said:
> ...



No arguments here. I agree.

But, it does have an effect on what people consider acceptable behavior not only with violence but with sex.

I'm not sure that people that don't live in America realize how much media influences are lives here. Even minor stars are lionized in the media to a degree that is disturbing. Look at all the attention that POS human beings like Linsey Lohan gets here.

Not even mentioning honey boo boo and the Goslings. :lol: :roll:


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## Waywyn (Dec 17, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Dec 17 said:


> Constant exposure to violence on TV must have some desensitizing effect. It's not the big fish, but for example where did the guy who shot up the theater get the idea to outfit himself for combat?



But why is it always one lane thinking 
Guy dresses like Joker, therefore Batman is violent, made the guy kill ... this is not the case. If a guy is mentally ill or suffering from some psychological problem he is attracted to stuff like this. This doesn't mean that the movie made him a murderer.
The damage is already done. However, especially some specific media channels (even here in Germany) missuse these infos and twisting and turning it, letting games, movies or whatever appear to be the cause of it all!

@Jose: on the other hand. Kids testing out stuff in all kinds of situations. You know we played thief and police around our house with water guns etc. .. our parents let us play with weapons but they always told us that real weapons simply are made for killing people. Actually playing conflict games is good for kids since they solve (believe it or not) situations. Not by using a gun, but just to get to a decision.

The sick stuff starts when parents have their automatic rifles next to the fridge door or teach their little kids shooting, telling them that this is important against the evil in the world!


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## choc0thrax (Dec 17, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Dec 17 said:


> It's not the big fish, but for example where did the guy who shot up the theater get the idea to outfit himself for combat?



True. I'm sure the families of Aurora victims lie awake at night wishing the guy who shot their family member was wearing cargo pants and a cute sweater while he did it.


Marilyn Manson had some wise words back after Columbine: http://www.antilife.org/files/marilyn.html


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## germancomponist (Dec 17, 2012)

Where I live there is a very high motorway bridge. Shortly after this bridge was built, the first suicide jumped. All media had reported. The number of self-murderer increased rapidly. And again and again it has been reported. Then the government has decided that no more media may report on it. A short time thereafter, the suicide rate decreased again. In recent years no one has jumped from this bridge. 

This are my 2 cents about media and its influence. ...


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## Waywyn (Dec 17, 2012)

josejherring @ Mon Dec 17 said:


> Waywyn @ Mon Dec 17 said:
> 
> 
> > josejherring @ Mon Dec 17 said:
> ...




You know, I studied music in LA and I will never forgot two situations.
The first was this evening when we practiced. We lived with like 3 guys in a flat and had some visitors this evening. Suddenly someone screamed from the living room: "A TIIIIIT, quick everyone, there is a TIIIIT on TV" ... everybody was running like crazy and then we saw it. A tit, the first tit in months on TV. In U.S. almost successfully all boobs are pixeled out ... I really couldn't believe it.

Makes no sense so far, but here is the other situation. That afternoon when I came back from the academy, relaxing a bit, turning on the TV ... what did I see (again in the afternoon). Some guy got decapitated in a movie and on the commercial break they showed videos of extreme accidents, also one kid which was hit by a train. All for 19,99 (trailer voice)

This is what is happening in the US. You see disturbing media in afternoon newsbreaks, when every kid sits in front of the TV and the most natural thing on this planet is pixeled out. What I am trying to say is, that in the US the doctrine is, that violense is OK to be shown while sex is something unnatural. Combine this with fear mongering news and everybody is allowed to buy weapons. Seriously a dangerous mix!


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## Waywyn (Dec 17, 2012)

germancomponist @ Mon Dec 17 said:


> A short time thereafter, the suicide rate increased again.



I am sure you mean, decreased?


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## José Herring (Dec 17, 2012)

Waywyn @ Mon Dec 17 said:


> josejherring @ Mon Dec 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Waywyn @ Mon Dec 17 said:
> ...



You saw a breast! On what show? :mrgreen:


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## germancomponist (Dec 17, 2012)

Waywyn @ Mon Dec 17 said:


> germancomponist @ Mon Dec 17 said:
> 
> 
> > A short time thereafter, the suicide rate increased again.
> ...



Yup. Thanks Alex! I will correct it.


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## germancomponist (Dec 17, 2012)

josejherring @ Mon Dec 17 said:


> This is what is happening in the US. You see disturbing media in afternoon newsbreaks, when every kid sits in front of the TV and the most natural thing on this planet is pixeled out. What I am trying to say is, that in the US the doctrine is, that violense is OK to be shown while sex is something unnatural. Combine this with fear mongering news and everybody is allowed to buy weapons. Seriously a dangerous mix!



You saw a breast! On what show? :mrgreen:[/quote]

Although sex is one of the most beautiful things in the world. Who in the USA's so screwed up? :mrgreen:


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## RiffWraith (Dec 17, 2012)

So, nobody is going to answer my question?


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## José Herring (Dec 17, 2012)

germancomponist @ Mon Dec 17 said:


> josejherring @ Mon Dec 17 said:
> 
> 
> > This is what is happening in the US. You see disturbing media in afternoon newsbreaks, when every kid sits in front of the TV and the most natural thing on this planet is pixeled out. What I am trying to say is, that in the US the doctrine is, that violense is OK to be shown while sex is something unnatural. Combine this with fear mongering news and everybody is allowed to buy weapons. Seriously a dangerous mix!
> ...



More people than you think. It's shocking.

This country was founded on Puritan principals. Sex, dancing, music=bad. Killing nonwhite native American=good.

If you understand our history then the right wing politics doesn't seem as strange.


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## park bench (Dec 17, 2012)

> If you understand our history then _ politics doesn't seem as strange.


 FTFY (In humor of course, but smiles are out of place on this thread)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 17, 2012)

> But why is it always one lane thinking
> Guy dresses like Joker, therefore Batman is violent, made the guy kill ... this is not the case. If a guy is mentally ill or suffering from some psychological problem he is attracted to stuff like this. This doesn't mean that the movie made him a murderer.
> The damage is already done. However, especially some specific media channels (even here in Germany) missuse these infos and twisting and turning it, letting games, movies or whatever appear to be the cause of it all!



That's not what I wrote, Alex. You're arguing with someone else.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 17, 2012)

I'm still SO upset over Janet Jackson's breast on TV. That was the biggest outrage in the history of man.


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## Waywyn (Dec 17, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Dec 17 said:


> > But why is it always one lane thinking
> > Guy dresses like Joker, therefore Batman is violent, made the guy kill ... this is not the case. If a guy is mentally ill or suffering from some psychological problem he is attracted to stuff like this. This doesn't mean that the movie made him a murderer.
> > The damage is already done. However, especially some specific media channels (even here in Germany) missuse these infos and twisting and turning it, letting games, movies or whatever appear to be the cause of it all!
> 
> ...



Oi, sorry! .. obviously you quoted someone and I did read it as a statement of yours ...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 17, 2012)

I think you just misunderstood what I'm saying...which is understandable, since I was not totally linear.

My point is that I believe people probably do become desensitized by seeing violence on TV all the time, but that it's a very small part of the the issue ("not the big fish") and it's not something we can or should do much about anyway. And that we'll never know whether I'm right, because there's no way to test it.

And above all I'm saying that the way to reduce gun violence is to make it harder for people to get guns and ammunition to be violent with in the first place - especially automatic and semiautomatic ones. That's the first step, anyway.


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## chimuelo (Dec 17, 2012)

It's a good first step, I totally agree, and then there are records of assault rifles sold, well not to the Cartels but here at home, and getting those folks to return their weapons won't be easy, but I wonder how many of these folks have actually kept the weapon, and if they didn't report the resale, there's a little leverage to use. 
It will require the people getting involved and the Feds, State and Local Law Enforcement as they are pretty busy and suffering from bancrupted pensions and budget cuts.
And to address the violence issues from the media, I saw much worse violence on TV as a kid than I see now days.
We had Combat with Vic Morrow, Clint Eastwood, every Western from John Wayne to Lee Van Cleef, and how can anyone here forget the 3 Stooges.
My Grandparents actually did remark that the violence they saw, and Wrestling At The Chase ( which started "pro" Wrestling that was total fake bull shit ) was going to have an effect on some people. It never scarred me, but it was a strange time to be a kid.
I was de-sensatized from practicing Nuclear Bomb drills everyday in class, and every year getting a new Toy gun, which led up to my first Crossman 760 BB/Pellet Rifle, then when I was 18 got my own shotgun and 30-06.
But I never hit people in the head with a hammer like Curly, or had street duels with weapons, etc. But did see violent social collapse and riots, actually one was a war, literally. 
Hundreds were killed and that was when the News Channels were more honest but had less access to information. Walter Cronkite spoke about the Cities of Detroit, Memphis, Chicago and St.Louis burning and how hundreds are reported dead. It was actually thousands and they swept it under the rug, as they feared the truth would be more damaging.
The main change I see in society is not the amount of violence or lack of it, but the ease at which a lawyer can get you a divorce, and you then are entitled to half of the homestead, etc. This is no biggie as I wouldn't miss someone who is now wanting to scratch my eyes out, but were madly in lust for 7-8 years.
Not saying anything other than single parenting takes its toll on the kids.
This is what I have seen as a big societal change.
I was the first in my family to ever get a divorce and as a kid I never saw divorced parents, widowed, but never divorced, it just didn't happen in the 3 neighborhoods I grew up in.
My parents gave up a fashion design career with Edith Head, and Pro Football Player for the Browns to raise 3 kids. It's the exact opposite now as the career seems to be vital, then settle down maybe. 
Abortions are an everyday activity. I believe it's a gals choice anyways, but just noticing the societal changes I have seen or been involved in. Surely these issues have an affect on others.
I do hear a few talking heads for the far right Crime Family saying something to the effect that religion was once our backbone, etc.
I know that ain't true, I stole more in Church than anywhere else as a kid, they had tons of cash and I needed mics and gear even when I was 11 years old playing Suzie Q by Creedance Clearwater Revival.....

I think we have seen a pattern of damage and we are assuming that this was always normal, when really only 40 years ago, it was barely heard of as the Father could easily afford raising a few kids and having Mom teaching us to read on a 3rd grade level when we were 4 years old. I even skipped the 2nd grade as my mother spent her spare time "Teaching" us, then dad wore us out with year round sports.
Just don't see that much now as both parents need to work, and my son sees us in the morning when we yell at him, then walk his lazy ass to school.... 8) But We are both home most of the time until 9-10pm, but he does stay up late and play XBox, there's no way for me to monitor him, but when he's a whiny beotch in the morning which is a couple times a week, I know the reason, and this is a fault of my own.

But friends of mine where the Father makes Bank as a Corporate lawyer, or Doctor, those kids get the proper attention and guidance and it seems to really matter.

Just my opinion though, I am sure there's much more to society than what I have experienced.


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## impressions (Dec 17, 2012)

Besides the gun fanaticism the mother inherited her son, the less obvious and much more significant reason was his isolation!
His mother isolated him and took him away from a chance to be accepted in society. After 15 years withdrawn from his elementary school he shoots his own mother- in the head and then goes back to take revenge on the school and the children(that are no longer there) because they had the pleasure of socializing. He was envious and angry. That's a big motive especially if you have guns scattered in the house and the personality to blame everyone else.

The mom and her isolation of her child, guns control might have prevented it but not necessarily.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 17, 2012)

impressions @ Tue Dec 18 said:


> Besides the gun fanaticism the mother inherited her son, the less obvious and much more significant reason was his isolation!
> His mother isolated him and took him away from a chance to be accepted in society. After 15 years withdrawn from his elementary school he shoots his own mother- in the head and then goes back to take revenge on the school and the children(that are no longer there) because they had the pleasure of socializing. He was envious and angry. That's a big motive especially if you have guns scattered in the house and the personality to blame everyone else.
> 
> The mom and her isolation of her child, guns control might have prevented it but not necessarily.



Maybe if his mom had been a tennis enthusiast instead of a gun enthusiast, he would have tried to beat those kid to death with a tennis racket.


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## impressions (Dec 17, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Mon Dec 17 said:


> impressions @ Tue Dec 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Besides the gun fanaticism the mother inherited her son, the less obvious and much more significant reason was his isolation!
> ...



no, his mother had to be first. a shot in the head is known to be caused by terrible loathing.

Everyone grows up in the same environment, yet some develop/undevelop to become un-social. becoming violent is another step down from anti-socialism.
I'm pretty sure the values in that family weren't clear to that particular child, he was just misunderstood and mislead throughout his short life, when he decided to finally take charge of his life-and become independent, it was only his twisted childhood that ruled him again in the end. the gesture of ripping himself from the one which imprisoned him was true, but the tools in which he chose to break from his prison were, for lack of better words, dead wrong.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 17, 2012)

I don't think you understood my point- easy access to extremely powerful guns made killing many people easier. His mother's enthusiasm for guns helped that along.


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## José Herring (Dec 17, 2012)

Listen to all this pyscho babble. blah, blah, blah...

He was "misunderstood". Please. He was a crazy nut job. Obviously the mama was a crazy nut job too. Who else would pack semi automatics in the burbs. Husband left her. The other not crazy son never visited home. That tells you something right there. At least 1/2 of the family was twisted.

Back to the original discussion. 

For all the cries for more "mental health" we know one fact. Mental health is laughable. We spend more money on mental health than any other country and yet we have the most crazy nut cases. 1 in 4 according to stats. So, mental health isn't helping the situation.

The only other logical course is to take away weapons of mass destruction from the people. High powered riffles and pistols with large rapid fire magazines.


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 17, 2012)

> This country was founded on Puritan principals. Sex, dancing, music=bad. Killing nonwhite native American=good.



Historically inaccurate, but popular to say.
http://www.differencebetween.net/miscel ... -pilgrims/

Each colony was founded for a different purpose.


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 18, 2012)

The stats don't lie, and Aaron Sorkin summed it up well - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFIYLimyRHU . As for the retort that, say, banning assault rifles won't change anything, the experience of Australia suggests otherwise. In the 18 years prior to the banning of assault rifles, there were 13 mass shootings, in the years afterwards none. Few would be naive enough to believe that banning assault rifles in the USA would solve this issue once and for all (and Australia still has plenty of other kinds of violent crime that have arguably not reduced at all), but the evidence suggests that it would help, for all the reasons pointed out already by folks on this thread. Some of the more vociferous comments here along the lines of "nothing will work, it's all a waste of time" do read very shallow and empty in the wake of this tragedy, and it is encouraging - and frankly astonishing - to see a gun control senator advocate, Joe Manchin publicly changing his stance ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20760351 ) . This isn't a natural disaster like a tsunami - the US is a society and a culture made up of individuals who create laws. What is needed is political courage and will, and these can only happen if there is strong public support among voters for something. I don't know if there's been a poll since the tragedy, but if that showed strong public support for, say, banning of assault rifles, we're in with a chance.

As to the mental health issue - it's well worth discussing, but very hard to know what to do. The typical shoooter, it seems, is the quiet loner with few friends who never said boo to a goose, not some deranged obviously unstable figure that everyone figured was a disaster waiting to happen. The obvious problem - how do you identify a potentially dangerous loner from the regular kind? Conditions such as Asperger's may play an additional role - indeed common sense suggests that individuals with significantly reduced or no sense of empathy have the largest potential to kill in this way - if the normal human barriers to such acts don't exist, autism or pscychopathy must pose serious risks. But again that's an terribly blunt instrument in terms of identification - most autistic folks pose no risk at all, of course. I don't know what the answer is, but if research can help identify with any usefulness the kind of person who is potentially dangerous, all to the good.

I don't think it should be either / or - some form of gun control plus improvements in mental health provision seems the best way forward, if either are even possible.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 18, 2012)

Nice to see you back, Guy.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 18, 2012)

Peter Alexander @ Tue Dec 18 said:


> > This country was founded on Puritan principals. Sex, dancing, music=bad. Killing nonwhite native American=good.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Peter- where are you on the idea of banning assault weapons for personal use?


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 18, 2012)

Cheers Larry.

BTW, for me there was a profound look at the American psyche in the documentary about the MPAA called This Film Is Not Yet Rated (highly recommended). I'll never forget an independent filmmaker saying her drama had been classified as an NC-17 because it contained a shot of a woman having an orgasm - and this shot was a shot of the woman's face ONLY. As she pointed out, she could have blown that head away with an AK-47 in graphic close up and got an R.

It does all seem rather odd to me.


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## George Caplan (Dec 18, 2012)

impressions @ Tue Dec 18 said:


> no, his mother had to be first. a shot in the head is known to be caused by terrible loathing.



is that right? :roll:


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## Gusfmm (Dec 18, 2012)

choc0thrax @ Mon Dec 17 said:


> Marilyn Manson had some wise words back after Columbine: http://www.antilife.org/files/marilyn.html




Choco- that was an interesting reading, I was not aware he had written such note. Definitely thoughtful.


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## Waywyn (Dec 18, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Dec 17 said:


> I think you just misunderstood what I'm saying...which is understandable, since I was not totally linear.
> 
> My point is that I believe people probably do become desensitized by seeing violence on TV all the time, but that it's a very small part of the the issue ("not the big fish") and it's not something we can or should do much about anyway. And that we'll never know whether I'm right, because there's no way to test it.
> 
> And above all I'm saying that the way to reduce gun violence is to make it harder for people to get guns and ammunition to be violent with in the first place - especially automatic and semiautomatic ones. That's the first step, anyway.



Oh ok, got ya!


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## quantum7 (Dec 18, 2012)

Waywyn @ Mon Dec 17 said:


> The sick stuff starts when parents have their automatic rifles next to the fridge door or teach their little kids shooting, telling them that this is important against the evil in the world!



With all due respect, that is ridiculous and very naive thinking mein Freund. My brothers and I all learned how to fire a gun at 4 and 5 years old. My father had around 30 or 40 guns. His hobby was rebuilding them, reloading the shells, and target shooting. My entire family are some of the most gentle moral people you would have the pleasure of knowing. My parents were constantly a part of our lives when we were children. They raised us with a foundation of religion and morality. 

Countless studies have been done over the decades in prisons asking why people ended up there. Broken families and no moral upbringing are by far the biggest factors, NOT because daddy owned a gun. 

If gunpowder was never invented by the Chinese there would still be the exact same violence in the world- it would just be by other means like bombs, knives, etc. Should we address gun problems? Heck yes....of course, but guns do not create violence! I try to sympathize for people's dislike for things that can harm people... but c'mon, use some LOGIC in your thinking. 

Peace


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## Waywyn (Dec 18, 2012)

quantum7 @ Tue Dec 18 said:


> Waywyn @ Mon Dec 17 said:
> 
> 
> > The sick stuff starts when parents have their automatic rifles next to the fridge door or teach their little kids shooting, telling them that this is important against the evil in the world!
> ...



Sean, my logic is that YOU, have been raised in a functioning family, but this is not standard level. Many many parents have no time for their kids anymore. They tell them god painted the sky blue instead of explaing things (you know what I am trying to say) and put them in front of a gaming console and don't even bother explaining them what the difference between reality and fiction is. Many many parents don't "raise" their kids anymore ... it is more like processing them so they are quiet at the fastest way. This is the sad truth.

So obviously I am intelligent enough to know that it is not only the gun that kills people but also the finger and the brain ready to kill!

However, I stick to my statement that I would always ask, WHY would someone have 30 guns at home (even worse why does a teacher have an assault rifle at home) ... This is something I simply do NOT understand and can comprehend. I understand that the US was kind of "built with firepower", I understand that if people live in the wilderness and have to defend themselves from bears and stuff, that Karate and spoons might not be the best way to do it.

HOWEVER, I love the US and I enjoyed living over there in LA. I especially enjoyed the people, being helpful and friendly as you never see it in Germany (except Hamburg *lol*), ... but again, it might be a cultural difference, it just not goes into my head how someone would need lots of guns or even assault rifles at home. It is simply beyond my logic. You can twist it and turn it and bend it, these things have been created to KILL and nothing else ... and I would never see a reason to have even one at home. Germany works too - without guns!

Finally, and I am not getting into any other justification of guns, I am simply looking at this graphic and find it even more ironic that a country, which to 90% literally believes that a god has written each persons destiny and foreseen their lifes long before earth has been created needs so much firepower to defend against something or let me say it different: to change something which has been foreseen.

http://www.artonissues.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/00001168.gif (http://www.artonissues.com/wp-content/u ... 001168.gif)
Sorry can't post the pic. It is too large and I don't wanna get into Photoshop right now


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## germancomponist (Dec 18, 2012)

I have to agree with Alex here. Good post!


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## JonFairhurst (Dec 18, 2012)

Sean,

Guns are unique in our society. The general populace doesn't have bombs (and we risk blowing ourselves up if we build our own.) We all have knives, but to fight with a knife is hand to hand combat. No mass-murder has been performed with knives. Guns, on the other hand, are widely available, loosely regulated, can kill dozens at a time, and the shooter can stand back and do his deed at a distance.

Yes. Guns don't do violence. But they enable violence. Mass violence. By cowards.

Public swimming pools also kill people. We regulate them. They are surrounded by fences. They have maintenance requirements. They have signage requirements. Lifeguards require training. Yet nobody claims that the government has taken away our right to swim.

For many, guns aren't just a tool, but an idol.


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## chimuelo (Dec 18, 2012)

It's hard to talk to someone about responsible gun ownership, hunting, fishing, camping and self reliance when they are already set in their ways, and find surviving w/o others providing services an impossible feat.
My mom actually was a huntress during WW2 in Big Bear and Arrowhead, every year she would let us punks shoot out the Christmas Tree Bulbs strung up by the clubhouse, then would take her turn and clean house.

Oddly enough my father returned from WW2 and never owned a gun again, but hunted with a Bow. He saw finaticism and up close combat during the island hopping campaign, and even despised Trumans decision to use the bomb.

He rotated back home in early August of '45 with 70,000 war weary kids and when he heard the bombs had been dropped he was shamed. These kids tried their best to remove civilians from the battlefields of Okinawa and Saipan, just to see hundreds of thousands of civilians incinerated. 

So at 20 years old he saw more crap than we have in a lifetime.
Nobody hates war more than a soldier, but then knowing your children are capoable of surviving natural or man made disasters is normal for fathers in the States.
Can't speak for other cultures.

Once we were lured with Canada into Europes wars, and then Pearl Harbor happened, we changed forever, 911 only exasperated this.
Every one of my families generations on both sides have fought in every war since the Spanish American War, back when we declared war and didn't have these bull shit wars caused by politicians promising to fight on to the last drop of your childrens blood......

God Shed His Grace On Thee, And Crown Thy Good by re arming the Hood, From Sea to shinging Sea.........

Batter Up........Play Ball..


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## impressions (Dec 18, 2012)

josejherring @ Tue Dec 18 said:


> Listen to all this pyscho babble. blah, blah, blah...
> 
> He was "misunderstood". Please. He was a crazy nut job. Obviously the mama was a crazy nut job too. Who else would pack semi automatics in the burbs. Husband left her. The other not crazy son never visited home. That tells you something right there. At least 1/2 of the family was twisted.
> 
> ...



Your logical course is very much ignoring the real reasons.
people are so caught in the "ban guns" they forget psychos exist for a reason.
It is regrettable that you among lots of people are too lazy to understand why this took place, because it'll happen again until people will understand they have a responsibility on each other and not just make laws for damage control.

It doesn't matter to them if they have guns or not. If the will to kill is there, they will find the means- you know you can make a home bomb by looking up on google?

And I'm not talking about mental care, but there must be some kind of supervision over a mom and her child who doesn't grow in a social environment. 
Some kind of evaluation period.

I think dealing with firearms as a hobby is fine but to a degree, there is something sick about taking pleasure from this. It is because of the terrible damage guns can inflict that people find this kind of force attractive. Which is sick to the bone.

If you think banning guns will remove the psychos- you're dead wrong.
It's blindness to just shout and yell about the instrument which is easy to blame.
You are at least agreeing that His mother made him like this.
So you kill all the mothers?
The solution could be easier than we think-
Supervising children who don't go to school with a social care nurse would probably have stopped this tragedy.


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## Waywyn (Dec 18, 2012)

chimuelo @ Tue Dec 18 said:


> It's hard to talk to someone about responsible gun ownership, hunting, fishing, camping and self reliance when they are already set in their ways, and find surviving w/o others providing services an impossible feat.
> My mom actually was a huntress during WW2 in Big Bear and Arrowhead, every year she would let us punks shoot out the Christmas Tree Bulbs strung up by the clubhouse, then would take her turn and clean house.
> 
> Oddly enough my father returned from WW2 and never owned a gun again, but hunted with a Bow. He saw finaticism and up close combat during the island hopping campaign, and even despised Trumans decision to use the bomb.
> ...



Come on, the good ole war stories 
I was raised in a small town in Germany. All old "grandpas" were a f*cking mess.
My grandfather told the same stories every week. When I was little I thought he was getting old and kept forgetting things. Today I know he was a mental wreck. When I was around in town with my grandparents when they met up with friends it was normal to me that one guy had no arm, the other no legs, the other no lower jar .. however, ... I still ask myself why does this justify having several firearms or even assault rifles at home. In general I say get over those old wartime stories. It is important to remember but we live in 2012 and wars are fought via banks and the internet.

Just as a little add, I was a witness when I was 12 when a guy had been overrun by a train. He killed himself, shit and brain was lying around everywhere. If I think about that it looks about the same when you blast someones head off with an assault rifle - thank you, I got enough of it! (I am not mentally suffering at all from this) but I have hard times to get those pics out of my head ... (please take the following with a grain of salt) but ye brave americans can easily handle whatever situation or invasion by pulling out the killing devices and blast your enemies ... seriously ... in 2012?


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## José Herring (Dec 18, 2012)

I respect people and their ideas on guns. Well maybe not their ideas but certainly the people.

But, we can't live in a society where if somebody is having an off day or an off life, he can then purchase an unlimited amount of high powered weapons to take out his frustration on children or unarmed adults in public.

It's not true to say, "well these are isolated incidents" caused by sick individuals, because a) these are no longer isolated incidents, and b) there are always going to be sick individuals for the foreseeable future. So closing our eyes and hoping that someday there are no more sick individuals that would do this kind of stuff is a pipe dream. And a scapegoat for not taking the needed actions.

So I looked at the statistics and of course rgames is wrong. The previous assault weapons ban did bring down the amount of violent crimes caused by fire arms. Brought it down by quite a bit. Especially in the inner cities when the Uzi ruled the day.

Will we eliminate all gun crime? Probably not, can we make it so that these types of crimes aren't happening every other month. You're damn right we can.

Assault weapons ban now, and forever. These guns are Not needed in America. You want to hunt get a bolt action hunting riffle. You want protection, buy a revolver. You want to practice target shooting. Get a paint gun.

And let the politicians not be wimps. Make the ban retroactive so that people have to turn in their assault weapons regardless of when they bought them.

We can't let a few people who are preparing for the zombie apocalypse or whatever, dictate our life in America.


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## Waywyn (Dec 18, 2012)

Oh ... and one more thing. I seriously do NOT know what would be better. Saved my family by blasting some guys head away or living with a situation I wasn't able to prevent! Yes, many of you shake your heads now ... but I am serious! If I would shoot someone who is about to shoot me, I get down to their level ... and where is your guys moral then, huh?


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## José Herring (Dec 18, 2012)

impressions @ Tue Dec 18 said:


> josejherring @ Tue Dec 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Listen to all this pyscho babble. blah, blah, blah...
> ...



I won't disrespect you. You don't live here.

But, this shooter had all the care in the world. His mother supervised him day and night. He was 20 years old.

The shooter in Colorado also came from a good home. He was not a kid either.

The shooters in Columbine also came from good homes. Upper middle class.

So your correlation of "bad parenting" causing all this is not correct. 

America has an extensive care system. Large foster care system. Robust adoption system. And most parents here care deeply about their kids and practically kill themselves taking care of them.

Are we perfect, no. But we aren't bad either.

The problem is access to guns.

If say England had the same access to guns as we do in America they would have the same exact problems. 

We live on Earth. We have damaged people. Through no fault of any "parenting" some people grow up to be monsters. That's just a fact. 

Blaming American parents will get you nowhere. We have some of the best parents in the world. Teaching morals at home and in school.

Some people are sick. That's just a fact. Raising them near guns, is just plain stupid. Removing at least the most deadly guns from public reach, is the answer.

Blaming the American family system might make you feel superior. But that would be highly misplaced.

I've been all around the world. And Alex is right in his observation, that nowhere in the world will you find nicer people willing to help other people than here in America.

The problem is guns. Anything else is just a wasted distraction. Not laziness on my part. Just forthright pragmatism.


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## José Herring (Dec 18, 2012)

Waywyn @ Tue Dec 18 said:


> Oh ... and one more thing. I seriously do NOT know what would be better. Saved my family by blasting some guys head away or living with a situation I wasn't able to prevent! Yes, many of you shake your heads now ... but I am serious! If I would shoot someone who is about to shoot me, I get down to their level ... and where is your guys moral then, huh?



You have the human right of self protection. For yourself, family and really anybody that is being mortally threatened. Don't feel bad about that. But, you also don't need four AR-15's to do it. A pistol with 6 rounds would be enough.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 18, 2012)

JonFairhurst @ Tue Dec 18 said:


> Sean,
> 
> Guns are unique in our society. The general populace doesn't have bombs (and we risk blowing ourselves up if we build our own.) We all have knives, but to fight with a knife is hand to hand combat. No mass-murder has been performed with knives. Guns, on the other hand, are widely available, loosely regulated, can kill dozens at a time, and the shooter can stand back and do his deed at a distance.
> 
> ...



Right. Guns don't create violence, they enable more efficient violence, often by borderline personalities we'll probably never be able to identify in time. Loose regulations mean your neighbor, the guy with the chip on his shoulder about the world, can also have 40 guns. He's not an enthusiast. He's not gentle. He's a potential nutbag. He hates the government. He hates barking dogs, and kids who mess up his lawn. His own children and his wife look cowed and defeated.

I grew up in upstate New York. I KNOW this guy. You probably do as well.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 18, 2012)

> I have to agree with Alex here. Good post!



+1 to the +1.

***
My mother, having escaped Nazi Germany as a small child and seen what guns do, has a deep hatred for them. She passed that wisdom on to me (and my brother and sister). We weren't allowed to have toy guns.

*That* is appropriate firearm training. Responsible gun non-ownership.

And by the way, if I had a son I also wouldn't allow him to play war with sticks instead of the toy guns he wouldn't be allowed to have.

(My daughter always hated everything to do with violence. I think the aggression is mainly a male thing - and when I see how naturally some little boys take to karate, I'm sure of it; regardless, it's our job as parents to teach our children how to be in charge of the beast within.)


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## Waywyn (Dec 18, 2012)

josejherring @ Tue Dec 18 said:


> Waywyn @ Tue Dec 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Oh ... and one more thing. I seriously do NOT know what would be better. Saved my family by blasting some guys head away or living with a situation I wasn't able to prevent! Yes, many of you shake your heads now ... but I am serious! If I would shoot someone who is about to shoot me, I get down to their level ... and where is your guys moral then, huh?
> ...



*lol* Yeh, ... but this is not what I ment. Of course I have the right to self defense and of course I probably might split someones head with an axe who is about to kill my daughter or anything ... the thing I am talking of is ... am I able to do it? I mean, you spend years on a shooting stand, you can spend years by learning how to throw knifes or learn all those vulcan grips  ... it doesn't mean that you are able to take a persons life without hesitating that much to not let him the first move. In short, the mental hurdle to destroy a life, disregarding whats the opponents intention - yes, it looks so easy in movies and games


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## NYC Composer (Dec 18, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Dec 18 said:


> > I have to agree with Alex here. Good post!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nick, as the former owner of a male child (now 22) I respectfully suggest you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Not only is it seemingly their nature to be aggressive, but other male children socialize with your son and he WOULD play war games. Thy watch TV. Even if they're not ALLOWED to watch TV, they talk amongst themselves ABOUT TV. My kid had never watched TV and he knew about Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles! They divide into teams. The only way you could keep your child from being 'warlike' is it raise him in a Skinner box. I've heard the same thoughts you've posited from dozens of pc adults, and in EVERY case except one, trying to gentle-ize male children has been largely ineffective. The one kid who it seemed to have worked on in my circle of PC liberal NYC schoolkids turned out to be gay.


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## José Herring (Dec 18, 2012)

Waywyn @ Tue Dec 18 said:


> josejherring @ Tue Dec 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Waywyn @ Tue Dec 18 said:
> ...



I agree. I grapple with that thought occasionally myself. Especially in this day and age in America were things are pretty violent.

I have a friend. He's a mixed martial arts champion. He lives not far from here. He gets into situations where his life is threatened, or where his property is being threatened by somebody. He prepares everyday for the possibility that this could happen. He sees the world as a threatening place and he must be ready.

Me. I've never had to defend myself seriously. I've never had anything taken from me. I've never had anything bad that way happen to me, ever. I rarely think about it. I always think that nothing bad will ever happen to me or my loved ones.

So, sometimes I think that we get what we put our attention on. 

If you dream about the day where you are going to go out in a blaze of glory guns a'blazing defending yourself. I have to think that it may very well happen. But, if you dream about better things. Then things will probably happen.

Might be a foolish thought. But, I can't live a life stockpiling weapons just "in case".


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 18, 2012)

Thus not a dick brain=gay?

I used to be a male child myself, and I suggest that you (Larry) have deep issues that need resolving.


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## Waywyn (Dec 18, 2012)

josejherring @ Tue Dec 18 said:


> Waywyn @ Tue Dec 18 said:
> 
> 
> > josejherring @ Tue Dec 18 said:
> ...



I know where you are coming from. To me this is mostly linked to self fulfilling prophecy. It may sound stupid, but if you learn Karate, after a few years you look different. You keep watching every step of yourself and also from others and this again sends obvious signals to others acting kind of carefully aggressive. Of course you can generalize that, but what I am trying to say, if you are thinking that one day you get into a fight, you definitely WILL


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## NYC Composer (Dec 18, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Dec 18 said:


> Thus not a dick brain=gay?
> 
> I used to be a male child myself, and I suggest that you (Larry) have deep issues that need resolving.



(laughing) and who doesnt? Please elucidate mine.Yours are already on the table.

The child steadfastly refused to participate in games of conflict and wished to play with doll-like figures, Barbie as opposed to GI Joe. So now I'm a homophobe because I recognize that different sexualities manifest in different ways? Grow up and check your "I'm a better liberal than you" crap at the door. I spent 22 years living in the Village and did plenty of marching with my gay friends. Now we need to match gay cred?? Put up your rainbow dukes, bubba.

One more thing- if every straight or gay child in America is a "dick-brain" for using a toy gun, a stick, or his cocked finger in play, man, you have a lot of work ahead of you to re-make the world to your specifications.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 18, 2012)

I'm not talking about the gender roles - which of course are innate to most kids - I'm talking about how you think my dislike for guns is empty PC liberal crap. It has nothing to do with that, as I explained.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 18, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Dec 18 said:


> I'm not talking about the gender roles - which of course are innate to most kids - I'm talking about how you think my dislike for guns is empty PC liberal crap. It has nothing to do with that, as I explained.



Good lord. Do you even read what I post?? I never said it was empty pc crap ( I even called myself pc)', I said it was unrealistic.

1. I mostly agree with you about guns, as should be obvious. I do not agree with you 100%, its true. OMG.
2. I suggested to you that by and large , raising a male child is not just a matter of parenting, socialization will play a huge role. I illustrated. You ignored all of that.
I've done it. You haven't. I was a very involved parent and initially banned toy guns.
It had no effect. I gave my learning disabled son self defense training from an early age to deal with his physical and mental sequencing issues. To my knowledge and by all accounts of others, though he was eventually by his own choice a Golden Gloves boxer and a pretty tough dude, he never raised his hand in anger to anyone. Not once.
3. What call do you have to suggest someone who disagrees with you has "issues"??
Not only is it rude, it's surprisingly facile, coming from you.


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## George Caplan (Dec 18, 2012)

making gun ownership a political point scoring exercise is not what is needed right now.
its not a question of balanced people either liking or disliking guns but more to do with why they want to own them in the first place.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 18, 2012)

George Caplan @ Tue Dec 18 said:


> making gun ownership a political point scoring exercise is not what is needed right now.
> its not a question of balanced people either liking or disliking guns but more to do with why they want to own them in the first place.



I don't care why they want to own them. I want their unfettered right to do so restricted.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 18, 2012)

Okay Larry, never mind. I misunderstood what you were saying. Sorry.

And I agree with you - I want their unfettered right restricted too.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 18, 2012)

Waywyn @ Tue Dec 18 said:


> josejherring @ Tue Dec 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Waywyn @ Tue Dec 18 said:
> ...



Alex, have you done self defense training? Are you close friends with anyone who has?
Many Eastern practices are about whole body/mind/spirit and are, outside of competition, distinctly non-aggressive.


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## JonFairhurst (Dec 18, 2012)

Of course, there's Newtown. Here in the greater Portland area, we had the shooting at Clackamas Town Center mall. Also in this area - and during the same week - we had a 15 year old bring a rifle to school.

http://www.columbian.com/news/2012/dec/ ... school-gu/

Some say that we shouldn't debate gun control in the aftermath of a gun tragedy. When was the last time we had a week in the US without a gun tragedy?

In 2007, there were 12,632 US gun homicides. In 2009, 66.9% of all homicides in the United States were perpetrated using a firearm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violen ... ted_States

How about this: in *every* week when there is a gun-related tragedy, we should debate gun control. I'm not strongly anti-gun, but the idea that there should be zero regulations deserves ridicule.


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## George Caplan (Dec 19, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Tue Dec 18 said:


> George Caplan @ Tue Dec 18 said:
> 
> 
> > making gun ownership a political point scoring exercise is not what is needed right now.
> ...



i was talking to a friend of mine from brooklyn yesterday and he kept saying we need to change as a country. i dont see that. i see your point and definitely a lot of other points need to be clarified on gun law. 

which ever way you cut it the bogey man will sooner or later show up again. the elephant in the room whatever you want to call it.


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## Waywyn (Dec 19, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Tue Dec 18 said:


> Waywyn @ Tue Dec 18 said:
> 
> 
> > josejherring @ Tue Dec 18 said:
> ...



My reply was written in context to what Jose wrote about his friend who learned martial arts and run into trouble all the time. Of course you do not run into trouble when you learn Karate, but I was talking about people who e.g. learn martial arts to be prepared for "something" to happen they are afraid of.

If you learn martial arts for your inner piece and focus, then of course you do not look aggressive and whatnot all because you are not doing it for the reason to prepare for an upcoming conflict. However if you learn Karate only so you are powerful to bash people and looking for a fight (without actually provoking someone) your body language says enough already.

It is like 3 guys in a room on a business meeting. Within a few seconds there is a pretty good chance I can tell you which guy feels superior or which is the "least worth" person (at least this is how some people think about themselves). These body signs and positions definitely have a very high impact on meetings! You are fulfilling your prophecy yourself if you say: Hmm, do I have a chance in between all those brilliant minds?" 

Anyway, what I am trying to say with this is, if you ONLY buy a gun because you are afraid of something you may feel sure in the first round, but then you started that "self fulfilling chain" in a way and you would grab your gun more likely if only you heard a noise. Of course you can argue and say, this noise could be a thief etc. ... but it could be just your neighbor forgotten his keys, knocking on your back door! ... and in case you are a nervous guy, you may pull your trigger in the wrong scenario.


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## mark812 (Dec 19, 2012)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... sacre.html

I don't even want to comment this..


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## germancomponist (Dec 19, 2012)

mark812 @ Wed Dec 19 said:


> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2250440/Shops-sell-record-numbers-ballistic-Disney-Princess-backpacks-Sandy-Hook-massacre.html
> 
> I don't even want to comment this..



In what kind of crazy world are we living in? 

Back to topic: I had never before even a single thought to buy me a gun. ...


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## NYC Composer (Dec 19, 2012)

George Caplan @ Wed Dec 19 said:


> NYC Composer @ Tue Dec 18 said:
> 
> 
> > George Caplan @ Tue Dec 18 said:
> ...



george- I'm not sure what you're saying, but if what you mean is that regardless of what changes, there will still be gun violence and other terrible tragedies in America, I agree with you.My hope is we can make them fewer and less deadly.

Here's the thing- anti-gun control people often say "now's not the time".
My answer to that is twofold:

1. If not now, when?
2. For me at least, now's the time. I'm no longer on the fence in any way-so far, I've donated money, signed petitions, written a song and joined an organization. If there's a march I can go to, I will. I'm very very sorry about the adults who lost their lives, but the image of 20 kindergarten kids lying dead on the floor of their school keeps bouncing around in my brain. I remember my son at that age. I got out pictures of him and his little friends and looked at them. I remembered the feeling of his little hand in mine, walking him to school.

Now.


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## quantum7 (Dec 20, 2012)

I just taught 1st grade music the last 2 days (I usually teach 5th and 6th grade orchestra when I sub). Seeing all those little faces made it even more difficult to understand how a mind can dehumanize in such a way to do such innocent little children harm.

I'm still going to give my .22 rifle that my father gave to me at 12 years old, which his father gave to him when he was 12 to my son when he turns 12. He, of course, will not have unsupervised access to it until he is an adult. It will be in my gun safe with my pistol until then. 

This topic will never be agreed upon so it's time for me to wrap it up here and get back to the music section of the forum. I have my opinion, but do respect the feelings of people on all sides. It is a very passionate topic to people....such as abortion, religion, etc. See you guys in in the sampling forum. I bought many gigabytes of libraries this month and it's time to get back to them.

MERRY CHRISTMAS to all.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 20, 2012)

quantum7 @ Thu Dec 20 said:


> I just taught 1st grade music the last 2 days (I usually teach 5th and 6th grade orchestra when I sub). Seeing all those little faces made it even more difficult to understand how a mind can dehumanize in such a way to do such innocent little children harm.
> 
> I'm still going to give my .22 rifle that my father gave to me at 12 years old, which his father gave to him when he was 12 to my son when he turns 12. He, of course, will not have unsupervised access to it until he is an adult. It will be in my gun safe with my pistol until then.
> 
> ...



And to you, Sean, and for the record, I've said all that I have no interest in killing the Second Amendment, just in putting humanistic and sensible structure to it. Happy music-making!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 20, 2012)

That's right. We need to defend ourselves if a monarchy takes over the government.

Seriously, nobody will try to get rid of the 2nd Amendment. But I can't say there's anything good about it.


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## George Caplan (Dec 21, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Dec 20 said:


> That's right. We need to defend ourselves if a monarchy takes over the government.



thats where it falls apart in reality. but that has nothing to do with anything as im sure anyone who can walk and talk at the same time knows and also knows will make no difference to the outcome of anything.


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 21, 2012)

So THAT's the answer - more guns. That'll solve the problem. Except that a) it will cost billions and b) it won't work. Armed guards were on call in Columbine and the system failed.

The NRA are the enemy here. They've blocked every measure until now, and they carry on blocking.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 21, 2012)

Guy Rowland @ Sat Dec 22 said:


> So THAT's the answer - more guns. That'll solve the problem. Except that a) it will cost billions and b) it won't work. Armed guards were on call in Columbine and the system failed.
> 
> The NRA are the enemy here. They've blocked every measure until now, and they carry on blocking.



I am quite pleased the NRA stayed consistent in their response. It makes my job as a newly minted activist that much easier-the enemy is solid, definable and right in front of me.


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## George Caplan (Dec 22, 2012)

the nra well may give way on military style automatic rifles or whatever them call them. on hand guns hell will freeze over. in order to get guns done and finished totally you would have to break into every house in the land and that would take forever and i already made that point.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 22, 2012)

George Caplan @ Sat Dec 22 said:


> the nra well may give way on military style automatic rifles or whatever them call them. on hand guns hell will freeze over. in order to get guns done and finished totally you would have to break into every house in the land and that would take forever and i already made that point.



That's a straw man argument, george- I don't think anyone in this thread has advocated that. Meanwhile, if the NRA was ever going to back off on military grade weaponry in the home, their recent press conference would have been the time. Bless their hearts, they didnt budge an inch.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 22, 2012)

Those f-ing assholes are using horror as a marketing opportunity.

They are truly despicable. Wayne Lapierre is satanic.


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