# Help a newb mix Harry Gregson-Williams' "Arrival at Aslan's How"



## Mahlon (Apr 13, 2014)

Up until now, I haven’t really mixed music as a separate process. I’ve always mixed and balanced as I input the MIDI, but with this little mock up I did in order to learn Berlin Strings, I thought I'd put this test out there, seek your help and learn from you guys -- polish it off.

I’ve shied away from mixing a cue because a) I don't know what I'm doing, and b) I’m totally deaf in the left ear – so no stereo, and that also messes with frequency perception because of the terribly loud tinnitus that goes along with it. Consequently my stuff can sound pretty woeful. But I think I’ve got a good ear (  ) for imitation, so I _can_ learn.

Here's the cue as it stands. I don’t have the music for this; I just picked it apart the best I could and followed the soundtrack recording. And I’m pretty sure I royally screwed the brass orchestration which probably doesn’t help the mix. In Cubase, all I’ve done so far is export stems (Hi String, Lo String, Woods, Hi Brass, Lo Brass, etc.) to a new file. Each stem then goes through its respective Spaces instance of the Southern Cal Hall presets (Strings – S. Cal. Hall Strings, S. Cal Hall Mid Stage for Woods, etc.) on its way to the main out. I’ve pulled way back on the wet signal. There’s no EQ yet on anything. It’s pretty raw. But I think I'm mostly done with the programming.

So that’s it. If you were presented with this, what would you do mix-wise to make it finished? Specifics would really help me.

Also, programming-wise, do you hear anything that sticks out as being totally fake?

If you have time please take a listen. Welcome any and all suggestions.

http://lutanian.com/music/arrival_05_audiomix_01a.mp3

Thanks,
Mahlon


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## Mahlon (Apr 15, 2014)

*Re: Help a newb mix Harry Gregson-Williams' "Arrival at Aslan's How" -- Tweaked*

After helpful advice from a fellow forum member, I've tweaked this track and am posting the new version.

[flash width=450 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F144910976&secret_url=false[/flash]

http://soundcloud.com/mahlonb/arrival-mix-05-01c

Thanks for any comments on the mix and/or programming.

Mahlon


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## shapeshifter00 (Apr 15, 2014)

Sounds amazing. Great job


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## Mahlon (Apr 15, 2014)

Thanks, Shapeshifter.


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## Zardoz (Apr 17, 2014)

Wow. This sounds amazing. Are you doing this all by ear? If so, you've got a good one. 

From one Tennessean to another - TEACH ME BRO!


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## Mahlon (Apr 17, 2014)

Thank you, Zardoz. It took a while to pick it apart, and I'm absolutely sure I didn't do the inner voices correctly. About halfway through, I found an arrangement online written for piano, but since it was idiomatic it was mostly helpful to proof what I _thought_ I had heard.

Do you hear things in the mixing that could be improved?

Mahlon

P.S. What part of TN?


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## Zardoz (Apr 17, 2014)

I think it sounds pretty balanced. The strings sound wonderful - is it all Berlin Strings or are you overlaying other libraries? I'm perhaps not as qualified to judge the quality of the mix as others here, but I can't really hear any deficiencies - I know you want some critical feedback but I can't find any fault in it, sorry. 

My jaw drops at how close it is to a real recording. My feeble attempts at mockups don't sound anywhere close to this good. Can you share some insight for those of us less skilled as to how you got here - is it eq, reverb? What's the secret? I'm using Cinesamples and i can't seem to get this much "air" in my mockups, although I'm somewhat of a beginner orchestrator so it may just be my orchestration. I've never really tried to mock up an existing work like this - maybe I should try. 

I live in Fairview, TN, a tiny hamlet on the west side of Nashville. Grew up in Jackson though - went to college at Union.


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## Mahlon (Apr 18, 2014)

It's all Berlin Strings because I wanted to learn Berlin, so I limited myself. It'd have been a lot easier if I could've layered HS or Symphobia with it, as in: so far I'm not in love with the Berlin basses, and I would have much rather used HS for that. Or beefed them up with Symphobia.

The tone color of BST is really sweet though. The Violins have just the right bite and clarity, and they can soar beautifully above the orchestra because they have pronounced vibrato up there. But I've heard Cinesamples' strings, too, and was really impressed with their sound. I'm sure you'll be able to get a good performance out of them. They seem well programmed and robust. And if you're not getting enough air, maybe try EQing them.

If you heard my individual tracks, you'd hear that they don't sound very good on their own. Part of that is because with this mockup all I was concerned with was imitating the soundtrack recording. So I didn't work with individual sections at a time but rather mostly everything playing all the time while I tweaked performances (soloing here and there when I _needed_ to hear a specific line to make sure it wasn't total crap). If I were writing my own piece, I'd pay much more attention to getting the sections sounding good on their own first.

Yes, definitely try a mockup of something existing. You learn so much. It's better to have the score _and_ a recording to go from, too. What happens when doing a mockup is that you learn how each instrument _really_ comes in and out of a note, not how you _think_ or _imagine_ it does. That's the first step to realism. Reverb and all that is secondary. Performance is king. I'll often just let Cubase play a 1 sec snippet from my reference track over and over and over until it doesn't sound like music anymore; it's just sound. You'll start to hear how much tonal variety is put into a single, even short, note. Every note has a character to it. Of course you can go overboard and you'd never get finished. But every note has a journey from it's beginning to it's end. Most often it's a [strike]concave[/strike] (I meant) convex arc weighted towards one end or the other. But not always. The note moves through a beinning, middle and end, even staccatos though it's less important to sequence.

But that's where your really imitating _hard_ comes into play. Listen to it and imitate the hell out of it. You'll find all kinds of detail in there and the more you do it the more it becomes second nature and the faster you get at it. Also, I'd suggest just mocking up 30 seconds or so of a piece, then move on to another one, rather than one whole piece. Kind of like speed-mocking :lol: That way, you'll get lots of different playing styles very quickly under your belt, and it keeps you fresh. Then maybe mockup a whole piece, but I wouldn't do more than 3 minutes if you want to write your own music. If you're really into recreating performances of existing pieces as an end, then that's different and go for it. Then mock up a piece without the score, just by ear, and check yourself after the fact. That really teaches you because you instantly understand where you messed up and are emboldened by the fact that you a got so close, and it seems to stick. It goes without saying to pick something that you really love and would like to write like. I think most endeavors start with the thought "Hey, I can do that. I want to do something like that. Let me try. " At least that's me anyway.

There are so many places in Arrival that I would go back and tweak again - they just sound fake to me. And after a few more listens, I think you'd hear them too. But I've gotta stop somewhere.

Thanks for your comments. I think I'll post this in the finished compositions forum now. I don't see myself messing with it any further.

Good luck, and post something if you decide to mock it up. I'd like to hear it.

Mahlon


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## JohnG (Apr 18, 2014)

Hi Mahlon,

It sounds excellent. First rate programming and you have good taste, which is impossible to teach.

I do have one overall suggestion, not so much for this cue (I've never heard the original, though it's nice) but for maybe your next stab at a different cue.

One thing missing from many -- even very good -- mockups is the intensity of brass dynamics. When brass is loud in an orchestra, it can be REALLY loud. Picture just one trumpet playing ff or fff above a full orchestra -- you can hear it! When the full section is playing ff, or even f, it is very intense. 

You may know this from experience if you have had the chance to play with an orchestra. At least in Europe, some of the wind players' chairs -- the ones who sit near / in front of the brass -- have shields behind the players' heads to protect their ears from the brass players.

So, again, not knowing the original, don't be shy about really letting the audience have it with brass when you are going for "big."


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## Mahlon (Apr 18, 2014)

That's a good point and something I'll watch out for. I remember a particular Mahler 2nd at the Memphis Orchestra where the brass did just that several times and nearly took my ears off.

Good advice. Thanks for the comments.

On another note, does the bass seem too heavy to you. Or muddy in the 300 Hz range?
That's what I'm most unsure of. Mostly because of the desperate room I'm working in.

Mahlon


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## rayinstirling (Apr 19, 2014)

Hi Mahlon,
I listened to the original soundtrack for the first time, today. :lol: 
First thought when hearing or should I say feeling the rumble was your mockup not having any. Then later in the mix, how loud and forward the choir became in comparison to your mix.
Still though, a great effort for someone with normal hearing never mind you having the same affliction as my wife, that being, no hearing in one ear.

The big question is, do you work on to make it better or move on to something else?

Thanks for sharing

Ray

re-mastered off the soundcloud file https://app.box.com/s/w5rr8uxu706czfxfoh5o


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## Mahlon (Apr 19, 2014)

Hi, Ray. Make it better. o-[][]-o

EDIT: Just saw your link, and I see what you mean. I'll need to go back to the stems and bring out the choir a little. I like the bass; it's got a foundation now. Sounds much better to me.

Thanks,

Mahlon


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## Mahlon (Apr 22, 2014)

Okay,
Here's a new version. I listened to the original recording and it _does_ have that bass mass to it that mine didn't. Brought up the bass and tried for more presence in the strings and choir.

*box*
https://app.box.com/s/g3gp2r6pfg2wpvtcfxaa

*Soundcloud*
[flash width=450 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F146000825&secret_url=false[/flash]

Mahlon

P.S. I exported this as an mp3 from Cubase, but a pretty good rate. Should I just be letting you guys here the full .wav files? This one is only 4 MB which seems reasonable.


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## marclawsonmusic (Apr 22, 2014)

Hi Mahlon,

Quite simply, this kicks major ass. Way to go.

You've done a really excellent job here. The latest mix sounds great to my (newb) ears. Since you are from Tennessee, you will probably appreciate it when I say, "Damn, son!"

Anyway, I can't wait to hear some of your own work through this template. 

Again, outstanding job!
Marc


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## Hannes_F (Apr 23, 2014)

Great job!



Mahlon @ Sat Apr 19 said:


> learn how each instrument _really_ comes in and out of a note, not how you _think_ or _imagine_ it does.



^^^ this


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## Enyak (Apr 23, 2014)

The original music isn't really my favorite style, but as a mock-up I think it's extremely well realized. The mixing on the latest version is great.


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## Resoded (Apr 23, 2014)

This is outstanding, very inspiring. Great job!


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## rayinstirling (Apr 23, 2014)

Mahlon,

I wish I hadn't listened again and again to the Original Soundtrack because.............................

Yes you guessed it. The more I listen the more I hear the deficiencies in the mockup.
As nice as it is, there can be no cigar and, I would not say anything different about my own efforts or most others' mockups I've ever listened to.

That's the benefit of being able to compose your own. No one knows what it should have sounded like 

But,...... I'm sure you won't let an old cumudgeon like me put you off.


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## Mahlon (Apr 23, 2014)

Marc,
Ha! I know exactly what "damn, son" means. Thank you 

Thanks, Hannes. I appreciate it.

Enyak,
Thank you. Mixing/mastering is what I'm concerned with. I copied Ray's and utilized his advice as best I could. Still, mine falls short methinks, but damn that stuff is tricky.

Resoded
Thank you. Harry Gregson-Williams can write a chest-pumping melody, for sure.

Ray,
Believe me, I hear them, too. I listened to the original after not hearing it for about a week, and my spotty parts stuck out like a sore thumb. (I'm not just talking about substituting a clarinet for one of the flutes at the end, either  ) I cringe in a few places. But I guess it holds together on it's own as some sort of performance.

I may go back through the MIDI one more time and fix a host of mistakes I noticed but have ignored if favor of mixing/mastering time. But also, I think I need to follow my own advice and keep going, in a way.

Mahlon

P.S. Don't anyone go back and listen to the original!! :lol:


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## rayinstirling (Apr 23, 2014)

Mahlon,
I'll do that list for you soon but first here is an adjustment I've made to match the relative levels in the mockup to that of the original.
Yes! I know, why bother when I think all mockups are poor reflections of the original?

Because it's FUN 

Ray

https://app.box.com/s/6jgycoxv10h59b6vygal

I've added this screen shot from WaveLab

https://app.box.com/s/rm37phifr0o07y9d48wo


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## marclawsonmusic (Apr 23, 2014)

rayinstirling @ Wed Apr 23 said:


> Yes! I know, why bother when I think all mockups are poor reflections of the original?
> 
> Because it's FUN
> 
> ...



I think I like this Ray fellow. 

Ray, I had the great pleasure of visiting Stirling a few years ago. I stayed in a "wee village" outside of town called Thornhill. Pete was the bartender at the local pub and I met quite a number of local Scotsmen who were very hospitable and asked me fascinating questions about my country.

Anyway, I just wanted to say I am impressed with your generosity towards Mr. Mahlon here, but I think it is probably just indicative of good Scottish hospitality!

Sorry for (momentarily) hijacking the thread... I couldn't help but reminisce a bit.

Cheers,
Marc


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## Hannes_F (Apr 24, 2014)

marclawsonmusic @ Thu Apr 24 said:


> I think I like this Ray fellow.



^^^ This. Great work Mahlon and Ray!


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## rayinstirling (Apr 24, 2014)

@ marc,
I'm glad you enjoyed Scotland but I can't say much about Thornhill as, although it's close I seldom visit the trossachs and, don't be misled into think all Scots are friendly. You'll spoil my street cred 

@ Hannes
This is all down to Mahlon. I simply adjusted a few controls.


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## Mahlon (Apr 24, 2014)

That's sounds smoother, Ray, and thanks for the image. It helps to see what you're doing. I heard the distortion you were talking about (in my version) and I'll fix that along with a few other things in the MIDI and render out new stems -- kind of start fresh (but with new knowledge  ). 

Mahlon

EDIT: And thanks, Hannes. I value your opinion from years of reading your posts.


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