# Spitfire Audio Mural vs Orchestral Tools Berlin Strings



## dhlkid (Jan 31, 2014)

Hi, 

Anyone has both?

I focus on Long and Legato most. 

Although I have quite many strings libraries, I still wanna grab something new for my music.


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## studioj (Jan 31, 2014)

I've been very happy with Berlin Strings... but Mural is certainly quite affordable and the sound is pretty great from the demos. Nothing has made me want to leap on it quite yet though.


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## TSU (Jan 31, 2014)

Mural - big and lush (but still detailed) symphonic band.
Berlin Strings - only half section size compared to Mural.
So I don't think it can be fairly compared.
Also Mural is not complete yet. There are three volumes ahead.
The first volume offers only Fingered (Slur) legato transitions and only basic articulations.
Berlin Strings is much more completed library.
So again - it is not a fair comparison.

It depends on what kind of sound you seek.
What libraries you already have.
And which developer philosophy you prefer.
Strings is the base library for any orchestra.
So if you go with BS you will be live in a more dry studio sound.
Mural - more wet hall sound.
And it will affect which libraries you will get in the future.

There is an opinion that BS don't need divisi because section sizes.
(You can take chords and not sound synthy with smaller section sizes)
It is true. But at the same time you can't get the big symphonic sound.

So there is several variables:
- Room. (Hall vs Studio)
- Section sizes. (Half or Full)
- Articulations list. (Mural is not complete library, it is just volume one)

Hope this helps.


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## germancomponist (Feb 1, 2014)

Mural = best British musicians, recorded at one of the best sounding stages of the world... .


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## Peter Alexander (Feb 1, 2014)

I have both.

They are too radically different to compare given that Mural is twice the size player-wise as BST. 

The two points you can compare are bowings (articulations) and price. Beyond that, you have to decide if you like Teldex vs. Air Lyndhurst.

Additionally, both now have enough product to create an Air template and a Teldex template. 

What sound do you want?


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## TSU (Feb 1, 2014)

germancomponist, yes... the sound of Mural is just phenomenal 

dhlkid, also keep in mind that in Mural you always can use the leader and close positions to make more close and intimate sound.


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## dhlkid (Feb 1, 2014)

I mainly use VSL chamber/orchestral strings layer with Albion series+Sable.

But the overall sounds not lush enough.


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## TSU (Feb 1, 2014)

Then Mural is the answer for you.


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## dhlkid (Feb 1, 2014)

Any big difference in overall sounds between the strings of Albion series & Mural?


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## TSU (Feb 1, 2014)

Yes. Mural is bigger and more lush.
But they are both big. So I am not sure about "big difference".
Also Mural has more dynamic layers and RR's than Albion.


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## korgscrew (Feb 1, 2014)

Do you have Adagio?

Bang for buck, its a beast of a string library!

Full and Divisi sections for all sections. Plus solos in all sections.

Its very lush, very similar to Mural but with 10 times more articulations and loads of legato types including sordino legato and 8 different types of short for each section,. Plus Sable fits in really nice with it too for detail, if you need it!


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## muk (Feb 1, 2014)

Cinematic Strings 2 is another option. Great, lush sound out of the box. It doesn't have as many articulations as some of the contenders, but you only seem to need legato and longs anyway.


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## TSU (Feb 1, 2014)

korgscrew @ 2.1.2014 said:


> Do you have Adagio?
> 
> Bang for buck, its a beast of a string library!
> 
> ...



Hm... to my ears, Adagio is not similar to Mural at all.
And for that there is many obvious reasons...

And it is not fair to compare articulation lists I think.
There is only the first volume of Mural released.


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## korgscrew (Feb 1, 2014)

I wasn't comparing it to mural, more of an alternative to either BS or mural.

With right reverb adagio can sound lush. It all depends what you want from it.

Ive got the Albions, Sables and Adagios, they all have their strong and weak points. Using them all together I feel as though buying mural would be an impulse buy for something I don't really need seeing as I have it all covered in my collection.

Thats not to say I won't get it at some point as I'm a Spitfire Hoarder!


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## dhlkid (Feb 1, 2014)

muk @ Sat Feb 01 said:


> Cinematic Strings 2 is another option. Great, lush sound out of the box. It doesn't have as many articulations as some of the contenders, but you only seem to need legato and longs anyway.



I have CS2, not bad at all.


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## dhlkid (Feb 1, 2014)

korgscrew @ Sat Feb 01 said:


> Do you have Adagio?
> 
> Bang for buck, its a beast of a string library!
> 
> ...



I don't have 8dio strings. I like their Hybird Tools 1 & Rhythmic Aura series.

Anyway. I read some place and said 8dio may release Adagio Strings 2 soon?


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## rJames (Feb 1, 2014)

Hey Peter, since you have used both and are a connoisseur of sample libs, I'd love to know something very specific in a comparison.

I think I need the bigger sections sizes of Mural (and the natural sound of AIR) but I love the playability factor that seems to be BS; specifically the "With velocity you have control over different captured bow stroke intensities (soft attack, immediate attack, accented attack)."

Its the legato or sustains attacks that I need in a lib. I know I sound like a broken record on this point but I want to be able to easily blend in short notes and long notes in a phrase. Da-daa-daaaaaaaa, da-da-daaaa-di-daaaa.

When I asked Paul about Mural and this aspect he said, I'll have to hear the demos and make my own decision whether its right for me. He went on to say that I shouldn't have to use shorts in that kind of phrase (I was complaining about other libs in that exchange).

This is my only request for a lib. That I can play a phrase with short notes and long notes and that they blend easily. Most sustain or legato notes begin softly and rise in volume quickly... part of the expression for slow passages. Love that. But I need a quick attack as well, even in soft passages so that I cannot be struggling with the programming.

Can I get this from Mural? I already make the mistake of expecting that with CineStrings and am disappointed.

Ron


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## DocMidi657 (Feb 1, 2014)

Hey Ron,

I have the same exact issue you are talking about with regards to fast, hard Bow Attack and the Legatos of most libraries. I have a ton of libraries myself but not Berlin which appears to be the only ones able to do this. 

Since I have a ton of string libraries, I am wrestling with spending on Berlin just to get that feature for playability without actually trying it and see how it feels and responds. I have a lot of VSL as well and emailed them about this ability and they suggested some of their harder attack articulations (velocity switching with legato within a matrix) but I don't think it's the same thing as what Herndrick at Berlin has done from his video demo. If someone with VSL expertise could school me on this I would be greatly appreciative if it can be done.

Dave


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## rJames (Feb 1, 2014)

I glad to hear I'm not alone.

BTW I can almost get the effect I need out of LASS by moving cc1 way up at the beginning of a note and trying to invert the natural bowing crescendo built into the samples.

So, as long as Mural can do that, I should be fine. 

I really believe that for what I do (for the most part) I need the bigger sections.


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## Arbee (Feb 1, 2014)

DocMidi657 @ Sun Feb 02 said:


> Hey Ron,
> 
> I have the same exact issue you are talking about with regards to fast, hard Bow Attack and the Legatos of most libraries. I have a ton of libraries myself but not Berlin which appears to be the only ones able to do this.
> 
> ...


I hear you. I'm no VSL expert yet, but from what I see in Berlin demos and from what I use in Vi Pro, setting up Vi Pro to use velocity or speed switching for slot cross fades between normal and fast attack articulations should pretty much have it covered.

I'm looking for someone now to do the big strings comparison. Adagio/Agitato v Berlin Strings v Cinematic Strings v Cinestrings v HS v LASS v Mural v VSL >8o 

.


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## Peter Alexander (Feb 1, 2014)

> Its the legato or sustains attacks that I need in a lib. I know I sound like a broken record on this point but I want to be able to easily blend in short notes and long notes in a phrase. Da-daa-daaaaaaaa, da-da-daaaa-di-daaaa.



If I'm understanding this correctly, you simply want to change bowings (articulations) within the phrase as a player would in a live performance. 

If I _am_ understanding you correctly, there's only 1 player that allows for this and that's the Vienna Instrument player, whether with a keyboard performance or via their Matrix where you can "program" those changes in via keyswitch in piano roll edit.

For Kontakt/Play, you'll need to look at Transmidifier and Mind Control to see if either program permits this on a live keyboard performance.

If you're on Logic, there's a program Jay talks about a lot that might aid in this. I'm sorry I don't remember its name off the top of my head.

HTH


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## DocMidi657 (Feb 1, 2014)

Hey Arbee,

Thanks for your reply and I would love to see that comparison does as well. Here's what Hendrick said regarding my questions regarding VSL (which I have and know pretty well) and their new adaptive legato feature, Basically Henrdick states there's more to it than just "a switch" like VSL uses but I'm still not sure by his answer what is different? I think it's the internal fades he mentions. Love to hear your thoughts. Here's his post/answer below.

Hi Dave, 

sorry for my late reply on this. Just saw this thread in the forum section. But it´s never to late for an answer, right? Very Happy 

The whole Adaptive Legato thing isn´t just a simple speed switch. It´s the whole concept and idea behind it to create a patch which reacts intuitive and similar to a real string section and their natural effects. 
Of course the 3 different legato styles, which will be "switched" depending on your playing speed is one part of it. 
Additionally, depending on your velocity the different (sampled) attacks will be addressed. All the internal fades are flexible depending on your playing speed (which makes the legato much more fluid). Then we´ve recorded and included special articulations for blurred intonations which will be added in an adaptive way (BTW these are independent from the playable runs!). 
Several settings like fades and the legato scripting in the background reacts depending on the interval you choose. 
To finalize a performed phrase you can choose intuitive between the "normal" decay release sample or a smooth ending release by using the sustain pedal. 

All in all: 
-> The speed decision between the 3 legato types, 
-> the attack control, 
-> the internal fades which are flexible depending on your playing speed, 
-> the adaptive blurred intonation, 
-> interval based background settings for more realism 
-> and the ability to choose intuitively between different decays or legato and portamento… 

... is what we call The Adaptive Legato Concept. Using all this without handling around all the time with CCs and keyswitches is, (especially for Kontakt) something completely new. For us it is the perfect fusion between real samples and the possibilities of the KScript technology. 

Hope that gives you a bit insight into the idea behind it. 

All the best, 
Hendrik


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## PlasticMoonRain (Feb 1, 2014)

Who has got the deep pockets to afford both libraries in less than a month's time? And Mural isn't even complete yet!!


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## Arbee (Feb 1, 2014)

DocMidi657 @ Sun Feb 02 said:


> The whole Adaptive Legato thing isn´t just a simple speed switch. It´s the whole concept and idea behind it to create a patch which reacts intuitive and similar to a real string section and their natural effects.
> Of course the 3 different legato styles, which will be "switched" depending on your playing speed is one part of it.
> Additionally, depending on your velocity the different (sampled) attacks will be addressed. All the internal fades are flexible depending on your playing speed (which makes the legato much more fluid). Then we´ve recorded and included special articulations for blurred intonations which will be added in an adaptive way (BTW these are independent from the playable runs!).
> Several settings like fades and the legato scripting in the background reacts depending on the interval you choose.
> ...


Thanks, certainly seems that Berlin has a very sophisticated and intuitive combination of features at work simultaneously. Not sure that VSL/Vi Pro could deliver all of this at once, others I'm sure will be better placed to comment on that. Philosophically however, I'm still not convinced that one can achiieve an adequate illusion of realism with a single recorded pass on any one string line. Effective blurring for me comes from multiple performances of the same part.

.


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## muk (Feb 2, 2014)

Arbee @ Sat Feb 01 said:


> Effective blurring for me comes from multiple performances of the same part.
> 
> .



That's an interesting comment. BST's intonation blurring for faster lines is a nice concept, but compared to the detail that is addded when recording in several passes - which does affect each and every note - it seems like a minor addition. I'm a bit surprised that except for VSL (Dimension Strings) nobody has adopted a similar approach to LASS. To me Andrew's approach of splitting up the sections was a major improvement for the sound, not only when doing divisi, but especially for the whole section playing together.


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## Arbee (Feb 2, 2014)

muk @ Sun Feb 02 said:


> Arbee @ Sat Feb 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Effective blurring for me comes from multiple performances of the same part.
> ...


Exactly, in fact the more I see and hear of the latest and greatest string libraries the more I see LASS in my future.

.


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## muk (Feb 2, 2014)

It's strange, I really hoped Spitfire would adopt that same approach. Somehow it seems as if most developers see the divisi approach as the most important thing. So, for example, Spitfire mentions that you can use Sable to write divisi parts for Mural. But to me, that's only one advantage of the concept. The other big plus is the reality it adds to the sound of the full section when layering the smaller ensembles together.

One thing I'm curious about: Sable can be layered together with the transposition trick (there is even a feature built in for that). Layer the first violins thrice and you have a nice section of 12 players. This would be very similar to LASS, since you would have three subsections of the whole ensemble (eventhough all consisting of the same players, of course).
Can anybody compare the layered Sable with LASS? Some audio examples would be awesome.


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## Anthony N.Putson (Feb 2, 2014)

muk @ Sun Feb 02 said:


> It's strange, I really hoped Spitfire would adopt that same approach. Somehow it seems as if most developers see the divisi approach as the most important thing. So, for example, Spitfire mentions that you can use Sable to write divisi parts for Mural. But to me, that's only one advantage of the concept. The other big plus is the reality it adds to the sound of the full section when layering the smaller ensembles together.
> 
> One thing I'm curious about: Sable can be layered together with the transposition trick (there is even a feature built in for that). Layer the first violins thrice and you have a nice section of 12 players. This would be very similar to LASS, since you would have three subsections of the whole ensemble (eventhough all consisting of the same players, of course).
> Can anybody compare the layered Sable with LASS? Some audio examples would be awesome.



I've LASS but Murai sounds stunning, and im thinking of picking up and using lass alongside, especially the 1st chair on top of Murai.


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## benmrx (Feb 2, 2014)

Arbee @ Sun Feb 02 said:


> in fact the more I see and hear of the latest and greatest string libraries the more I see LASS in my future.



I've got to say, I'm thinking the same thing. The BST legato seems pretty damn amazing to me, and Mural sounds nice and lush, but as a 'whole library', I just love the way LASS is put together with the A, B, C sections.


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## jamwerks (Feb 2, 2014)

Anthony N.Putson @ Sun Feb 02 said:


> I've LASS but Murai sounds stunning, and im thinking of picking up and using lass alongside, especially the 1st chair on top of Murai.


Keep in mind that Mural has a dedicated mic (mix to taste) on the first chair player. Does pretty much the same thing imo.


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