# What gets lost



## EastWest Lurker (Oct 21, 2015)

I have been observing something and I wonder how many of you will agree.

Let's start by stipulating that composing music well is hard work; particularly under deadlines; particularly with a pain in the butt client; particularly with trying to make sample libraries sound really good.

That said, I think a lot of you are so hyper focused on which reverbs to use, how many, early reflections, which libraries, how much EQ etc. you are losing sight of one crucial thing: composing music should be a joy! Personally, I am never happier that when I am doing so.

Do you agree with my assessment?


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## sleepy hollow (Oct 21, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Do you agree with my assessment?


Yes, I do. 

Really hope that this turns into an interesting debate and not into some sort of 'I-know-better-than-you-do' thread.


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## germancomponist (Oct 21, 2015)

I also agree. The composition and arrangement are the most important things.
I remember when I did a Radio Commercial and forgot to put the reverb on, while mixing. Interestingly: No One asked me about a missing reverb.


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## jneebz (Oct 21, 2015)

Yes!

I've only been in business as a composer for about 18 months. I'm the type of person that gives 150% when I'm dedicated to something (this is a blessing and a curse, BTW ) and so when I got back into music creation/producing after about 8 years away, I was floored by the amount of new and/or improved technology available for a fraction of the cost compared to just 10 years ago. I found myself getting BURIED in it, however...definitely "hyper focused"on the tech and minutiae, and completely found myself drifting from the true meaning of what I was trying to do..._enjoy creating music!!_

Recently I connected with an industry pro of 30 years and he told me he was writing cues for a very popular TV show...using IK SampleTank and a Line6 POD for guitar work _(no offense to IK or Line6, just not what I expected from a seasoned pro)_. My reaction, in order of emotions: 

*1. What a fool!
2. Wait, THAT cue was done with SampleTank and a Pod???
3. Wait, they're paying you HOW MUCH?
4. I'm such a fool!*

This interaction changed the way I view my gear and the time I spend on the minutiae of composing and production. And I've had SO much more joy writing since then because I'm not worrying about if I'm using the "best" delay or library or whatever. At the end of the day, if the music sounds great to me and my client is happy, all is right in my world.

-Jamie


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Oct 21, 2015)

I don't know. It's a rather brash assertion. 

It's a forum that's largely dedicated to virtual instruments, sample libraries, DAWs etc. There's gonna be a lot of focus on the technicalities of music production. It must not necessarily be that people's contributions here reflect the whole of their musical identities. Perhaps more for some, less in the case of others.


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## muk (Oct 21, 2015)

As Jimmy wrote it's partly because that's what this forum is about. However, I sometimes find it regrettable that the newest and shiniest tools get discussed at great length and depth, while there is comparably little discussion about music itself. If only the member's compositions subforum had half the attention the sample talk has (and, unfortunately, I have to include myself in that comment).


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## jneebz (Oct 21, 2015)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> It's a forum that's largely dedicated to virtual instruments, sample libraries, DAWs etc. There's gonna be a lot of focus on the technicalities of music production. It must not necessarily be that people's contributions here reflect the whole of their musical identities. Perhaps more for some, less in the case of others.


Great point. I make my observations definitely based on my interactions here at VI but also in other composer/producer circles.


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## IFM (Oct 21, 2015)

I tend to agree but I do love a technical discussion too.


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## germancomponist (Oct 21, 2015)

Dragonwind said:


> I tend to agree but I do love a technical discussion too.


Agreed. But what would we do with all this great plugs without our composed music? So, for my understanding, the music is the first thing.
O.k., you also can compose "with" using plugs ... . So this is also a wide field.


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## vicontrolu (Oct 21, 2015)

New people tend to post more often in the forum, and they are more inexperienced with all the processes. That could be a factor too.


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## germancomponist (Oct 21, 2015)

vicontrolu said:


> New people tend to post more often in the forum, and they are more inexperienced with all the processes. That could be a factor too.


This is a factor, for sure. But I think, what many interested young people do not recognize is:
Not the tools and plugs make good music! You have also nowadays to compose and all the tools and plugs only can help you here and there, to get a good sound e.t.c. .


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## chimuelo (Oct 21, 2015)

Which is why nothing beats an old beat up Piano to compose with.
Once I get something written out I can record it quicker.

Then trying to make sampled stuff more realistic takes longer than anything.

Oddly enough I keep seeing and hearing videos of me and my homies recorded on a piece of shit phone that sound damn good.

So striving for the perfect mix of 1s and 0s might be wasteful to less scrupulous lovers of music.


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## cmillar (Oct 21, 2015)

I agree that the art of composing is a joy...(usually!)

The thing that takes away a lot of the joy is having to figure out which sound libraries, sample-based instruments, etc. to use in order to realize your music! 

(...but I do secretly enjoy the technological, experimenting part of it all and getting to explore the universe of possibilities of sound design and instruments that are available for us to use.)

I love the 'puzzle' of it all. That is, how to get from point 'A' to point 'B' for whatever the purpose of the music is.... whether it's an art-piece, a media piece, or whatever... and striving to get the right 'intention' into the music.

But, again, I think the only part of the process that isn't that joyful is when you realize that you have to change your original musical intentions due to the fact that you can't quite make some or another sample-based instrument do justice to your original musical intentions. 

Sometimes that can lead me into discovering a new solution to the problem, though, and come up with some new musical idea. That can bring joy.

Good topic! Brings up a lot of philosophical concerns.... like are some projects really worth the time when you're definitely not getting enough renumeration in return for the amount of time you have to put into a certain project?

Or, lets' say you've written and produced something that is really working and everyone is happy... but then, when some stoned, tone-deaf producers' '3rd cousin once removed who used to play 4th guitar in a garage-band in grade 9' says that they could replace you on the project and that they could basically just turn on their Fruity Loops and 'create' something for the project in 10 minutes that works better than your music for a huge project... and the stoned, tone-deaf producer says "Yeah dude... listen to my cousin.... he can play loud.... your music is kind of sucking.... go home and try again, man."

Or, you've been commissioned to arrange a piece of music for a jazz band, but then they dictate the piece they'd like (or that one of them would like!) to be arranged for them, and then they proceed to play you a recording of how this person's favourite 'current artist' recorded this particular song that they'd like you to arrange.....but, the recording they play is of zero-interest to your (my) idea of what could be done with the song for a traditional style big band....but, you can tell that they have their heart set on something sounds 'sort of' like what they just played for you... and that they're all nice people, but just aren't up to wanting to really play something that might not be 'like the record'.

These are 'real world' problems for composer/arrangers.

Is composing a 'joy' after scenarios like those?

It seems like we sometimes have to find 'joy' despite the obstacles placed before us, and that the joy can come in trying to find some way to sneak some 'art' into a seemingly 'artless' project .

(... some thoughts for the night as I go to bed wondering what I'll be able to do for a particular project over the next couple of weeks!....)


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## chillbot (Oct 21, 2015)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I don't know. It's a rather brash assertion.
> 
> It's a forum that's largely dedicated to virtual instruments, sample libraries, DAWs etc. There's gonna be a lot of focus on the technicalities of music production. It must not necessarily be that people's contributions here reflect the whole of their musical identities. Perhaps more for some, less in the case of others.



Agree with this. Yes I marvel every day that I get to write music. Not sure I'd use the word "joy" but it is definitely fun as hell and something I'd be doing anyway whether or not I was getting paid. But I only come to this forum to learn about stuff and improve. And though I don't post much I've learned a ton. I don't come here to rave about what a "joy" it is. And yes I get your point about getting too hung up with samples and reverbs and stuff. Fortunately I'm not a tweaker and I suck at samples and reverbs and stuff. So maybe you're saying the tweakers should stop tweaking and appreciate writing music. Except I'm not sure, I've heard some tracks by some tweakers and they are ridiculously good.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 21, 2015)

No I am not saying that. I am saying don't get so lost in worrying about those things that it kills your joy in the process. I think that happens to folks here a lot, like Jaimie describes in his post.

It doesn't to me, because I only give a rat's ass about three things:
1. Am I enjoying composing?
2. Do i like the way it sounds?
3. Is the client happy?


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## wpc982 (Oct 21, 2015)

While I can agree that sometimes struggling with a temporary sound in order to persuade someone to make a perfect version of the perfect sound can be difficult and tiring and frustrating, I look at using the tools better as not that much different from using harmony better, or learning orchestration better, or refining a melodic idea so it comes across better. It's all satisfying except when it isn't, and even then finishing is satisfying!


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## Farkle (Oct 22, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> I have been observing something and I wonder how many of you will agree.
> 
> Let's start by stipulating that composing music well is hard work; particularly under deadlines; particularly with a pain in the butt client; particularly with trying to make sample libraries sound really good.
> 
> ...



Agreed, Jay. I'm kind of "re-inserting" myself into the film and TV industry this year as a full time composer (I was with a game studio for 4 years, and they ran out of money.). Long and short is, I'm finding ways to write the music I want to write, because it is so much fun. Client building is a bit slower, because I'm not super in vogue, but I've never been happier composing.

However, once I sketch the piece out in Sibelius, and have to mock it up... well, that's a whole nother level of annoyance. I still can't get myself to enjoy the process of realizing my piece. The mixes sound blech, etc.

Like Chim, I find myself trekking downstairs to our piano, and sitting on that while composing. What a great feeling, I almost feel connected to composers like Ravel, Bill Evans, the Duke, like, "this is how they composed".

Hm, waxing rhapsodic, and it's only Thursday... 

Mike


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## chimuelo (Oct 22, 2015)

Also worth adding.
Composing EDM is really lots of fun.
For that type of composition a Piano might not be ideal. 
Those chores go to my K4 and Bidule.
Bidule is fast way to record a looping percussion riff with immediate playback.
Zebra2 developer named Plugmon has incredibly well organized banks of EDM presets.
Ideas can be discovered on the fly and after just a few minutes I am already editing.
Kicking back and doing overdubs and edits with knobs and sliders replacing additional notes or melodies is just incredible fun.
I never use a reverb on a synth.
Delays and filters during a composition is fun.

If you compose orchestral music and run into brainfarts. Take a break and go simple.
Cleans out the cobwebs.


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## Daniel James (Oct 22, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> I have been observing something and I wonder how many of you will agree.
> 
> Let's start by stipulating that composing music well is hard work; particularly under deadlines; particularly with a pain in the butt client; particularly with trying to make sample libraries sound really good.
> 
> ...



I have always assumed that those asking questions about the technical aspects of musical post production have already done the writing part. 

I don't think it speaks to if they are having fun or not with music. I for one love the technical aspects of music! Crafting the overall tone of my music is just as fun as writing the composition. I'm not sure what you are seeing in the posts that suggests an interest in the post production process means a lack of joy.

I don't think a hyper focus on post production aspects takes anything away from their skills as a composer. It just adds to them as an overall package. There is always something new to learn!

-DJ


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## Guffy (Oct 22, 2015)

I also love the little technical aspects of music.

All the little things are gonna help the composition and arrangement shine, and take it from good to great, imo.

I can enjoy a good production in the same way i can enjoy a good composition.
Obviously the music can't be utter shit, but i think my point is clear.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 22, 2015)

Production is an art too, no question, and it's important. I think Jay was triggered by posts from people missing the forest for the trees - expensive trees:

"Which word clock generator will improve my orchestration skills the most?"


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## chimuelo (Oct 22, 2015)

I have an Innerclock I don't use anymore.
Zero Samples. As good as they get for sync.

I'll see if anyone wants to buy hardware in the thread at the bottom of the forum where used 0s and 1s are sold.


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## Cowtothesky (Oct 22, 2015)

Writing music is fun for me. The hard part are the deadlines. Lately, I've been getting insane deadlines that are really unhealthy. Needed the money, so I took the gigs, but damn.
The work part is the lack of time. Writing music that perfectly matches a film, commercial, play, etc. on a tight deadline is a serious skill. You have to be so flexible and make all the right decisions early on. Committing to an idea early is the hardest part for me, because you just don't have time to try this and try that. You have to go go go. I'm still trying to work this out and it puts me in a panic, but I can eventually hammer it out and haven't missed a deadline yet (knock on wood).

I used to deck out my mixes with verb, but over the years, I've cut back a LOT - like maybe 80% in some cases. I use as little reverb as possible. I only put early reflections on brass and some higher range percussion.


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## geoffreyvernon (Jan 6, 2016)

i agree. but... i also like to use my reverbs as an instrument... so i still come back to getting stuck...


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## Daryl (Jan 7, 2016)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Let's start by stipulating that composing music well is hard work; particularly under deadlines; particularly with a pain in the butt client; particularly with trying to make sample libraries sound really good.
> 
> That said, I think a lot of you are so hyper focused on which reverbs to use, how many, early reflections, which libraries, how much EQ etc. you are losing sight of one crucial thing: composing music should be a joy! Personally, I am never happier that when I am doing so.


I can only speak for myself, but it might also illuminate a few things.

Hard work. It can be. It can also be really easy, depending on what the gig is, and what sort of turnaround time is available.
Deadlines are mostly under my control, but sometimes that doesn't actually help. A little bit of adrenaline can go a long way.
I don't have PITA clients to worry about, except when it comes to admin.
I don't need to worry about sample libraries.
So from the above, you'd think that I have a charmed life. Not really. I do enjoy composing, and wouldn't primarily want to be doing anything else, but there are still times where I have to pretty much force myself to work. One could argue that this is because I'm not very good. That's not for me to say. However, I think that part of the problem is that I'm very critical, so if things are not going quite to plan it is easy to get distracted, particularly as I often find that leaving something alone and coming back to is solves whatever perceived problems there were in the first place.

One other thing to remember. Composing can be done in the head, so one doesn't have to be in any kind of work environment to get ideas. This takes the pressure off quite a bit.

So am I never happier than when composing? Sometimes, but sometimes not.

Edit: Just remembered the Dorothy Parker quote: *I hate writing; I love having written.*

D


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## Baron Greuner (Jan 7, 2016)

germancomponist said:


> I also agree. The composition and arrangement are the most important things.
> I remember when I did a Radio Commercial and forgot to put the reverb on, while mixing. Interestingly: No One asked me about a missing reverb.



Hahaha! Gotta love that!


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## Saxer (Jan 7, 2016)

It's easier to write music than to write about music. Even harder to write about music writing.

It's easy to write about technical things. Everybody knows what you are talking about.


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## Cowtothesky (Jan 7, 2016)

NM - realized this was an old thread and already posted my experiences.


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## Rob Elliott (Jan 7, 2016)

Cradle to grave is important for sure in our business. BUT for me, I garner the most satisfaction in my early views of the film peculating ideas with me noodling around on my piano. IF I get THAT important first step right - all the orchestrating, arranging, mock-up execution, knob turning, etc. just flows better and ultimately my client (and me) are happier with the end product. I do that piano sketch work for free and charge the client for all that follows.


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## Greg (Jan 7, 2016)

"Struggle Is a Sure Sign You’re Creating Art"

http://goinswriter.com/struggle-art/


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## germancomponist (Jan 7, 2016)

I want to bring in something special: For those who remember the old GPO days, do you remember what great sounding music some people did with this library?


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## tarantulis (Jan 20, 2016)

I think the obvious answer is that using a credit card to ostensibly make your stuff sound good is much easier than actually putting in the required work with the tools you have.

Why hold myself accountable? My inability to create good music is clearly a result of not having Metropolis Ark in my life.

*Add to Cart*


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