# Bycicle Ride



## Musicologo (Mar 20, 2012)

While the dead soldier still sucks, I tried to improve on this one still keeping it simple. Do you think this one works? What advice can you give me on this one?

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14207055/Tiago%20Videira%20-%20Bycicle%20Ride.mov (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14207055/Tiago% ... 20Ride.mov)


----------



## re-peat (Mar 21, 2012)

(...)


----------



## TGV (Mar 21, 2012)

Utrèg, staatsie woar? (*)

The piece was not frantic enough to my taste, as re-peat also says. Not only are the images busy and choatic, they're also on ffwd.

The tune itself is not bad. If I listen to the piece and think of bicycles, I imagine the camera following someone through the country side. possibly on a rather old-fashioned bike, narrowly avoiding a collision or two with a road sign and a sheep. The images are already hinting at comedy. And at the end, he clearly steers straight into a creek, and we get a laugh. But that's not in the film.

(*) If you don't get the reference: these images were shot near the Central Station in Utrecht, my home town, if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## Gabriel Oliveira (Mar 21, 2012)

er... what was that bassoon at 0:11? :roll:


----------



## Musicologo (Mar 21, 2012)

For some reason sometimes I feel i just can't communicate...

In this exercise i'm not writing music for this scene, I was writing music with the purpose of doing dany-elfmanish music that sounded good on a demo. then I wanted to apply it to a scene to make it more appealing. I just wanted commentaries on the arrangement and the composition...

The music is what was done first and that is what should stand, and the title bycicle-ride. In fact I wanted a Paper boy in wisteria lane or something like that. But I could not find one. So I picked another bycicle-ride scene. Obviously a wrong one....

I understood everything that was said to me, and I appreciate the remarks, but some of them are way off what i intended in my question, perhaps i just haven't explained me well... So basically forget every comment on the link - music - this scene, and focus only on the musical comments to the music by itself.

BUT still... i don't understand how could I pick up such a wrong scene, I actually like the effect when I see both things together... I really have a lot to learn...


----------



## Mike Marino (Mar 21, 2012)

Tiago,

I'd still go back through ALL of re-peat's comments. When I listen to it and close my eyes I'm not picturing bike riding. The mix is really bad so my mind isn't left to wander; it's stuck on the mix. The orchestration/instrumentation seems inconsistent and on-the-fly as well. I would also agree that the music was very wrong for the scene (or in this case, the scene was very wrong for the music). I might have opted to use still pictures or something instead. But again, I'm not thinking about bicycles when I close my eyes and listen to the music.

I'm not a professional composer (by any stretch)....but one of the things that's helped me learn better writing and orchestration is TRY and do a MIDI mock-up of other pieces that I enjoy listening to. For orchestration sake I'll do the mock-ups inside of Sibelius (which is what I use) to help learn about what I THINK my ears are hearing. At the stage you're learning whether things are right or wrong; it's the forced exercise that helps. I'm currently doing this. I have a list of mock-ups I want to get through this year. The more of these you do the more you'll begin to hear and understand (at least for me).

What program/libraries are you using to write your music with?

-Mike


----------



## Guy Bacos (Mar 21, 2012)

I'm sorry but I don't agree at all with these comments, especially re-peat's. It is criticized as if music should be one way only to express something. I actually love it especially the first half, with that pastoral feel. There is no foliage and sound FX, I imagine that was intentional, and right away this takes me into a more abstract world, it could express a number of things, but it's saying something, right from the opening I thought it was effective. If it was with the street noise and all, then I would agree with all the previous comments, but the way it's presented, I find it far more original then some music keeping the same pace as the bicycles. Even the fast forward speed creates some kind of absurdity which could be expressed in any number of ways. I said I like more the first half, maybe in the 2nd half, it could be slightly more animated, but I still like it. Yes, if could be refined, but stick to your idea. Good work and your instincts are the right ones.


----------



## robteehan (Mar 21, 2012)

I also disagree with a lot of Repeat's comments - they are based on the assumption that the scene demands a certain way to score something and that depends entirely on what the director's intent is.

I was clicking through the forum and was listening to a track "Remembrance" by Mike Marino which was recently posted. This is a really lovely slow orchestral track. Try playing this video with the volume off, and play Mike's track under it.
http://soundcloud.com/mike-marino/remembrance

Now you have a lovely statement about how time marches on and we're all just flashes of light in the grand epic of existence, or something like that.

The track that was posted could work along those lines if the mix wasn't so bad. But really, the strings and timpani are almost non-existant. They need to be front and center. Do some listening to film scores and compare how yours sounded, you obviously will notice a difference in the sounds of your strings - so try, on your next attempt, to make the strings louder and more present. If this were produced better I think it would work - except for the random dissonance at the end. That really has nothing to do with the picture, does it?

Now let me comment on your follow-up comments Musicologo:



musicologo said:


> In this exercise i'm not writing music for this scene, I was writing music with the purpose of doing dany-elfmanish music that sounded good on a demo. then I wanted to apply it to a scene to make it more appealing. I just wanted commentaries on the arrangement and the composition...



It's all fine and dandy to try to imitate Elfman's style (which you've done well enough, from a compositional standpoint if not production) but applying an abstractly-composed piece of music to a haphazardly selected scene of video does not make for an appealing experience to anyone - it makes, of course, for a confusing experience because the two elements are not connected. Get rid of that dissonant harp cadenza at the end for example, it doesn't really fit the picture.

But then again, I'm not supposed to comment on the picture, am I? Because you just picked it randomly, so I guess it doesn't matter if it works or not? 

Do you see, musicologo, how you've insulated yourself against criticism and accountability here? We're not supposed to comment anything except the arrangement and the music - but I think you know that you already know how to write music. Really, any musical choice can be valid in the right context. Nobody here is in any position to say, "the dissonant harp is BAD MUSIC, get rid of it", because there are some situations where it could be quite appropriate. 

Basically if you're going to put your music to picture, I think you owe it to yourself to make a serious effort to tailor your music to the emotional tone of what you see and not just throw something together. Or, if you only want comments on your music, post the music alone and forget about picture for now.


----------



## Musicologo (Mar 21, 2012)

Ok, still having some difficulties in communicating but now i think i got it. And some people addressed the point. So forget about the picture, forget about "composition" and music. What i really wanted to know I guess it was "MIX" and "soundfonts". The same "problem" in dead soldier.

My ultimate goal in this forum is not to get external approval for subjective things. That is impossible, i will get reactions like Repeat and i'll get encouragement like Guy Bacos.

I like the idea, the music, i'll stick to it. What i need is really advice on OBJECTIVE *technical details for achieving a professional sound.* One step at a time!...

That i think now has to do with the sound fonts and the mixing.

Well i'm using the university studio. It has vienna symphonic library and I'm using logic pro. So basically those were the sounds i used. 

On the other tracks i just opened the midi made in finale in logic. On this track I played all the instruments with a keyboard to see if i could get a difference.

So now my problem is "the mix is really bad" which is what is happening also in "the dead soldier".

So how do I get this midis to sound right? It has to do with levels, reverbs, dynamics?... am I right? So I should increase the violins or decrease the others? should i put reverb where and what kind? Is it related to the panning also? 

I believe it's that kind of stuff I need to learn better now.

And yes, i should probably forget picture and synchronization for now. I'll deal with that later, after I have mp3's sounding good.

Anyway, thanks for all the remarks. Even the negative ones. One only learns overcoming the flaws.


----------



## re-peat (Mar 22, 2012)

(...)


----------



## doubleattack (Mar 25, 2012)

Musicologo @ Thu 22 Mar said:


> BUT still... i don't understand how could I pick up such a wrong scene, I actually like the effect when I see both things together... I really have a lot to learn...



Your intuition and your feel is right. The music fits very well for the picture.
Actually I find it fits great!! (But that's really a personal thing.)
So, I'm with Guy Bacos.
B u t : Re-peats opinion is right too and I can understand it perfectly. That's only another view on things with the result of a completly different aesthetic. But his advices would work as well, so it could have a big value for you too, if you going through carefully on his advices. Maybe for only one reason in the result: To be more aware why and which means to an end you choose. 

The choice what to use is a part of the subjectivity of the artists.
So don't loose your intuition and your instinct.
There a lot of possibilties how music for film can work. 
I liked your approach to bycicle-ride very much. Some improves in the details (for the end or second part as Guy Bacos mentioned) could be done of course. 
But I think you know that already.
Thanks for posting!
I really appreciated that you've delivered the music together with the picture.
Otherwise it would have been boring. In this way as you did it got a pleasure!


----------



## mducharme (Mar 25, 2012)

Musicologo @ Thu Mar 22 said:


> So how do I get this midis to sound right? It has to do with levels, reverbs, dynamics?... am I right? So I should increase the violins or decrease the others? should i put reverb where and what kind? Is it related to the panning also?



Reverb choices etc is a very personal thing, but in general what you should be trying to do is re-create an orchestra stage layout across your stereo field. There are many different ways to accomplish that.

First, pan appropriately, look at where the instruments would sit in the real orchestra and pan it there - that gives you the left-right aspect.

Then, the depth aspect - the strings should be in front of the woodwinds which will be in front of the brass and percussion, simulating the front-to-back depth of an orchestra. This is where the reverb comes in, but the ways of creating this front to back are numerous and this normally requires some experimentation and comes down to personal preference. The wetter the sound in the reverb mix, the further back it will be placed in your "room", all things being equal.

The other thing is balance - know approximately how loud certain instruments should be in a certain range given a certain quantity of performers, and balance the instruments as such. Most samples are normalized and so you have to be cautious that certain instruments are not too loud. For instance, a flute will not be able to speak very well in its lowest register, but samples often normalize this and allow you to have really loud notes in the low register which sound in your mix, say, at the same volume as a big section of cellos in the same register - that makes the music sound fake.

By listening to recordings you can note these various things and A/B your sound with a good recording.

There are of course other things like EQ etc - getting a good mix is not simple but those are some good starting points.


----------



## jleckie (Mar 26, 2012)

Ha ha . I liked this. well done and excellent interpretation IMHO.

I think rather than tell the guy how HE should score it I think people would do better in using words like "I". i.e. "I would score this differently", etc. And theres nothing wrong in that. 

In fact what would make an interesting thread is taking a scene and having lots of interpretations. I think you will find none of the interpretations to be 'wrong' as per se....

As for the Danny Elfman remarkes made by the OP I am not entirely hearing those.


----------



## Musicologo (Mar 27, 2012)

Take 2:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14207055/Tiago%20Videira%20-%20Bicycle%20ride.mp3 (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14207055/Tiago% ... 20ride.mp3)

Has anything improved?... I tried to follow suggestions and put the strings more upfront and audible and tried to get the winds more in the back. I'm not sure about the panning though. I got rid of the timpani. And I changed the harp finale to something more "consonant".


----------



## Kralc (Mar 28, 2012)

Real nice, works a lot better without the video, I think.
Is there a slight timing issue with the pizzicatos?


----------



## David3D (Mar 28, 2012)

Musicologo @ Wed Mar 28 said:


> Take 2:
> 
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14207055/Tiago%20Videira%20-%20Bicycle%20ride.mp3 (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14207055/Tiago% ... 20ride.mp3)
> 
> Has anything improved?... I tried to follow suggestions and put the strings more upfront and audible and tried to get the winds more in the back. I'm not sure about the panning though. I got rid of the timpani. And I changed the harp finale to something more "consonant".



I haven't read many of the other comments, but comparing the two I liked the start of the first one better. In-fact when I listened to it, I thought: "I like how it seems as if the winds are in your face." But the new one sort of side-lined them in favor of background string line which I don't feel delivers the same feeling. They are also slightly out of sync, especially in your second attempt. They feel very un-natural and deliver a very wooden feeling. I feel reverb would fix this.

On the first one, it was good composition right up until the timpani drum at 0:06. It didn't feel like it was in the right space and weakened the piece. The same again for 0:13, 0:26 to 0:27.


I liked the harp and woodwinds a lot. If you tightened up the repetitive strings in the background, make the timpani a little more prominent, maybe add some rolls leading up to the hit rather than just a hit by it lonesome would add more to the piece?

Keep on truckin'.


----------

