# Georgia attacked first



## Ed (Aug 12, 2008)

Discuss.


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## Niah (Aug 12, 2008)

That depends on your angle.


Russia has been taunting Georgia through South of Ossetia months ago. So Georgia attacked and then Russia reacted.


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## choc0thrax (Aug 12, 2008)

Georgia makes good peaches.


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## Ed (Aug 12, 2008)

Niah @ Tue Aug 12 said:


> That depends on your angle.
> 
> 
> Russia has been taunting Georgia through South of Ossetia months ago. So Georgia attacked and then Russia reacted.



What I heard was basically that Ossetia voted to be indepenant, but Georgia didnt accept it decided to launch a "sneak attack" . The Russians that moved into Ossetia in responce were seen as freedom fighters by the people there, and CNN showed footage claimed to be Russian destruction of Gori is in fact footage of Georgia attacking Ossetias capital.


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## Niah (Aug 12, 2008)

Ed @ Tue Aug 12 said:


> Niah @ Tue Aug 12 said:
> 
> 
> > That depends on your angle.
> ...



CNN and other pro-american media will always paint Russia has the buggyman no matter what the situation is. None is good or bad it's just a conflict of interests.

PS: South of Ossetia has voted for independece from georgia yes but 95% of the population has adopted Russian citizenship which is the reason Russian retaliated in the first place.


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## Ed (Aug 12, 2008)

I still dont understand this "depends on your angle" stance in your first post. What did the Russians do to Georgia to warrent them blowing the crap out of Ossetia? Some people seem to be saying "well they are both as bad as each other on this!" and I just dont see that at all, unless Im seriously missing something. And as for the media, using that footage is unforgivable and suggesting that Russians just suddenly attacked Georgia is unbelievable. The fact that they were simply protecting Ossetia against a Georgian attack has been mearly a footnote from what Ive seen. Bush supported Georgias position which annoys me as well, is he trying to piss off the Russians?


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## midphase (Aug 12, 2008)

Can we at least all agree that Ossetia is a damn funny sounding name?


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## Niah (Aug 12, 2008)

Ed @ Tue Aug 12 said:


> I still dont understand this "depends on your angle" stance in your first post. What did the Russians do to Georgia to warrent them blowing the crap out of Ossetia? Some people seem to be saying "well they are both as bad as each other on this!" and I just dont see that at all, unless Im seriously missing something. And as for the media, using that footage is unforgivable and suggesting that Russians just suddenly attacked Georgia is unbelievable. The fact that they were simply protecting Ossetia against a Georgian attack has been mearly a footnote from what Ive seen. Bush supported Georgias position which annoys me as well, is he trying to piss off the Russians?



I said that it depends on your angle in answer to yuor statement saying that georgia attacked first. 

I don't know if that's necessarly true

As I said before Russia has been taunting georgia for quite some months now through Ossetia. I also remember claims from Georgia saying that Russia threw some missils at them months ago, don't know if it's true or not.

Nevertheless on August 1st both Georgia and Ossetia troops began fighting. Both sides acuse each other of initiating the fighting.

Now as I said earlier Russia has been provoking Georgia for quite some time (as usual with countries that become independent from Russia) and any country that becomes indenpendent from Russia gets american support that's why there were US flags all over the place when Kosovo became independent.


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## Ed (Aug 12, 2008)

Do you have a source saying that Russians were provoking Georgia? I havent seen that.


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## Niah (Aug 12, 2008)

Ed @ Tue Aug 12 said:


> Do you have a source saying that Russians were provoking Georgia? I havent seen that.




this has been in the news months ago this conflict.


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## Niah (Aug 12, 2008)

http://en.for-ua.com/news/2008/07/10/123512.html


Once Ukraine and Georgia gets into NATO, Russia won't be able to get away with threats like this.


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## Niah (Aug 12, 2008)

Another thing Georgia is a political allie with the USA.


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## José Herring (Aug 12, 2008)

My son just turned 7. At the end of his 6th year he got into a school fight. When I asked him why, he said the kid hit him first. When the other kid was questioned he said my son hit him first.

It's a shame to see that no mater how old the country or how long the conflict the level of reasoning of the people involved in a fight doesn't get much better than your elementary school yard mentality. 

Doesn't matter who hit first. What matters is that they are at war. What also matters is that dropping bombs is the worst way to solve the conflict.


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## Niah (Aug 12, 2008)

josejherring @ Tue Aug 12 said:


> My son just turned 7. At the end of his 6th year he got into a school fight. When I asked him why, he said the kid hit him first. When the other kid was questioned he said my son hit him first.
> 
> It's a shame to see that no mater how old the country or how long the conflict the level of reasoning of the people involved in a fight doesn't get much better than your elementary school yard mentality.
> 
> Doesn't matter who hit first. What matters is that they are at war. What also matters is that dropping bombs is the worst way to solve the conflict.



I agree Jose war is not solution but it's much more complicated than that.

Georgia only became independent due to western pressure. 

Since then Russia has made everything to hurt Georgia and provoke them. Russia has never accepted independence from Georgia as well as many other countries that belonged to the Russian Federation.


With that said I'm not saying that I lean on one side or the other.


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## Robobino (Aug 12, 2008)

josejherring @ Tue Aug 12 said:


> My son just turned 7. At the end of his 6th year he got into a school fight. When I asked him why, he said the kid hit him first. When the other kid was questioned he said my son hit him first.


The concept of "pre-emptive strike" pretty much solved that issue...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 12, 2008)

You have to look at the geopolitical story to understand what's going on. Georgia is a pro-Western country that wants to join NATO, which would mean the Russians don't have influence over it - and they're feeling their oats these days, thanks in no small part to the U.S. government's totally inept and disastrous foreign policy over the past 7-2/3 years. And as always there's oil involved. There's a pipeline from the Caspian basin going through there, which means we can get oil through there without dealing with the Russians.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 12, 2008)

Sorry, I started writing that earlier today before Niah's posts.


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## gatacca (Aug 12, 2008)

Make music, not war :lol:


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 12, 2008)

If only.


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## choc0thrax (Aug 12, 2008)

War inspires some really good film music though.


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## Robobino (Aug 12, 2008)

A Canadian soldier stepping on a roadside bomb in Afghanistan doesn't inspire me much... Real Heroes die in bed with a fat chick snoring at their side... 

Patriotism is for losers with a small dick.


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## zonobono (Aug 12, 2008)

Robobino @ Wed Aug 13 said:


> A Canadian soldier stepping on a roadside bomb in Afghanistan doesn't inspire me much... Real Heroes die in bed with a fat chick snoring at their side...
> 
> Patriotism is for losers with a small dick.





thanks robobino, you made my day. especially the last sentence... :mrgreen:


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## Robobino (Aug 12, 2008)

Merci Zonobono.

Enjoy it, I usually don't last very long on forums...


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## José Herring (Aug 13, 2008)

Robobino @ Tue Aug 12 said:


> A Canadian soldier stepping on a roadside bomb in Afghanistan doesn't inspire me much... Real Heroes die in bed with a fat chick snoring at their side...
> 
> Patriotism is for losers with a small dick.



With that attitude you'll last a good long time at this forum!!

The only thing that gets objections here is vicious criticism of other members. There's no room for that.

Other than that. Say what you want. Have no fear. Have a great stay!

Jose


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 13, 2008)

I was wondering - what do you suggest for losers with a large dick?


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## Dave Connor (Aug 13, 2008)

Robobino @ Tue Aug 12 said:


> Patriotism is for losers with a small dick.



What a pitifully shallow and narrow statement. You don't have to be a history student to know that the blood of patriots from countless nations is what allows us to type our profound little diddy's here.


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## Robobino (Aug 13, 2008)

Robobino! Do not answer back! Do not answer back! You will get banned! You will get banned!...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 13, 2008)

There's patriotism and there's ethnocentricism, Dave. "We take pride in our country and like to contribute to our world" patriotism is great; "we're better than you" is for losers with small dicks. The step between the two is very short, unfortunately, which is why I really dislike the Pledge of Allegiance and having to suffer through the national anthem (especially ours!) before you can watch a bunch of giant black men running up and down a wooden court.


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## midphase (Aug 13, 2008)

If Zonobono and Robobino had a kid together...would it be called Zonorobobino or Robobinobono?


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## Dave Connor (Aug 13, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Aug 13 said:


> There's patriotism and there's ethnocentricism, Dave. "We take pride in our country and like to contribute to our world" patriotism is great; "we're better than you" is for losers with small dicks.



What mature person doesn't understand the above perfectly Nick? Patriotism and Jingoism are completely different things. Some people have no concept that multitudes of people literally took a bullet for them (then their families got a nice little letter from their government and took an earth shattering blow of their own.) 

These 'patriots' died more often then not so that other nations could be free. That's hardly a 'we are better than you' attitude. That's the ultimate sacrifice for a stranger.

I wonder what the Holocaust survivors think of the American GI's who liberated them from the death camps. Those men were patriots and there was millions of them. So generally ascribing low or nefarious character to that large of group without even the slightest effort to distinguish between good and bad is pathetic (and uniformed by even recent history.)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 13, 2008)

"What mature person doesn't understand the above perfectly Nick?"

An awful lot of people aren't mature in this context, Dave. Look what happened to the Dixie Chicks, for example. Natalie Maines was practically burned in effigy for saying something that was absolutely appropriate!

Somehow I didn't get that Father of Robobinozonorobinobino was talking about WWII, I think he was referring to the American right-wingers of the 21st century. And he's absolutely right - they're all underendowed losers. I know, I checked every one of them.


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## Niah (Aug 13, 2008)

Yea but the question is does patriotism makes sense today?

things aren't so cut and dry like in the days of WWII


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## zonobono (Aug 13, 2008)

midphase @ Thu Aug 14 said:


> If Zonobono and Robobino had a kid together...would it be called Zonorobobino or Robobinobono?



probably: 


8)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 13, 2008)

"Yea but the question is does patriotism makes sense today? 

things aren't so cut and dry like in the days of WWII"

Exactly.

And in all honesty, even during WWII things weren't always as cut and dry as we want to believe. Of course Hitler was insane, and anyone who's visited a concentration camp is going to be shocked.

But right and wrong took a back seat to politics then just as it always has.


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## Dave Connor (Aug 13, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Aug 13 said:


> An awful lot of people aren't mature in this context, Dave. Look what happened to the Dixie Chicks, for example. Natalie Maines was practically burned in effigy for saying something that was absolutely appropriate!



This is exactly my point Nick. Jingoism or Yahooism or whatever is not what I would call patriotism. Patriotism refers to the likes of George Washington on down to all the George Smiths that exerted themselves on our behalf. It is entirely noble, selfless and humanitarian historically speaking to be patriotic if the results allow the freedom to be unpatriotic and go your own way. Making the term a pejorative because of current unpleasant social currents seems unthoughtful at best, "so-called" patriots I don't have a problem with.

Too many people have died so we can choose to think or say whatever we want. These people are and were intensely patriotic (like the police and firemen who gave their lives on 9/11.)

There's a term, Never Forget! Statement's that indict people for being patriotic is a total forgetting of the majority throughout history.


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## Dave Connor (Aug 13, 2008)

Niah @ Tue Aug 12 said:


> Georgia only became independent due to western pressure.



You mean regained their independence long after the Soviet Union swallowed up Georgia. Georgia has an independent history going back centuries.


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## Dave Connor (Aug 14, 2008)

I hope all will note how easily I concede that you have a "so called" patriotism that is a shallow "my country right or wrong" attitude. But I do not expect a similar concession about the merits of true patriotism because of the same said shallowness merely in another camp.

If one doesn't like patriots then they must detest the likes of Obama since he is offering himself for the highest office of service in the land (such patriotic duty!) But heavens, don't vote for anyone! (since that would be the very definition of patriotism.)


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## Dave Connor (Aug 14, 2008)

Niah @ Wed Aug 13 said:


> Yea but the question is does patriotism makes sense today?things aren't so cut and dry like in the days of WWII


I don't know. Fascism is still bad. Mass murder/ethnic cleansing still not so good. Government control of press, people etc., still not a winner - ask China. Oppressing religious liberty still very nasty business - ask Tibet, then China again. What's so blurry for you here?

Patriotism is defined in Websters simply as love of one's country. There are people in this country who are against the war in Iraq. They feel their government has strayed from it's core values and don't like seeing their sons and daughter's dying in a war. They care about their country and are voicing their opposition. They will vote accordingly - they are patriots. They may hate what there government is doing from huge issues to smaller, right down to local government but they still love their country and want to right it's wrongs.

You guys are talking about Nationalism, Jingoism, Extremism etc. The reason I love this country is because you're not going to end up in a Gulag for your views. This liberty came at an awful price paid by the blood of patriots.

Why didn't Robobozo ever respond?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 14, 2008)

The question Niah is getting at is whether the whole nation-state system is relevant in our era of "globalism."

I believe it is, but I understand the debate.


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## synthetic (Aug 14, 2008)

LOLBush, incredible it took this long...


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## Niah (Aug 14, 2008)

Dave Connor @ Thu Aug 14 said:


> Niah @ Wed Aug 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Yea but the question is does patriotism makes sense today?things aren't so cut and dry like in the days of WWII
> ...



True.

Nevertheless I find it hard in today's increasily globalized world to distinguish patriotism or the notion of country.

That's my experience anyway.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 14, 2008)

See? Told you I understood what Niah was getting at.


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## hbuus (Aug 15, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Aug 14 said:


> The question Niah is getting at is whether the whole nation-state system is relevant in our era of "globalism."
> 
> I believe it is, but I understand the debate.



That is a very interesting question. Personally I also believe nations are relevant in this day and age.

Look at us who are members of the European Union for example. My impression is that the reason why we have a hard time agreeing on anything at all, is partly our cultural and historical differences.

France for instance has a history of intervention to protect its own companies against foreign competition. Therefore they have difficulties accepting proposals to remove barriers of trade.

Denmark, my country, is very small and has historically been so for almost all of its existance. Therefore many people in my country, that is my impression anyway, has problems accepting that decisions which affect them are made far away geographically speaking.

Also, what happens if you ask a person: "Where are you from?"
Most people will answer by saying which nation they are from.
A few people over here will answer "I'm a European", but that is a minority (thank God  )

Best regards,
Henrik


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 15, 2008)

Yes. And also there's the world outside Europe to consider. I think it's fair to say that Russia and China - and certainly the recent U.S., very much independently of Europe! - act in their own self-interest (perceived or real).

So when it comes to international relations, you have to operate at that level. The way our current administration is bumbling through the crisis in Georgia - issuing empty ultimatums, etc. - is dangerously inept.


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## Hardy Heern (Aug 15, 2008)

Some opinions expressed in the UK relate to the similarity of Argentina's invasion of the Falkland Islands and the UK's effort to eject them.

I think that I tend to be on the side of the Russian's here......especially as us Europeans get 1/2 of our natural gas from them  .....otherwise it's going to be a VERY cold winter. Just remind GB of that little fact and tell him to stop winding the Russians up!

Russia is just starting to regain its might following the dismantling of the Iron Curtain. I have a lot of sympathy for the stoic Russian people. They live in a country with a very harsh climate and have endured a century of hardship from Stalin to wars. I believe that they lost 24million of their population in the 2nd world war?

Now I think that their time is coming. They have huge natural resources and burgeoning freedoms as do the Chinese. The power centres will certainly change in the next few decades......glad I'll be dead! 

Frank


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## Dave Connor (Aug 15, 2008)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Aug 14 said:


> The question Niah is getting at is whether the whole nation-state system is relevant in our era of "globalism." I believe it is, but I understand the debate.



You mean a sort of New World Order - One World Government Nick? :wink: 

I actually think the world is getting it right by co-operating and working together economically. Also the free cultural exchange I think is great and something that really can bring nations closer. The idea of a single government body running the planet is far to Orwellian for me. Not to mention unworkable on too many levels. I say preserve the nation-state and let the nations live together in peace.

As far as the crisis in Russia/Georgia it seems Russia is definitely flexing it's muscles and sending a strong signal to the world. I don't think the west can do much unless someone other than us really stands up to them. We're stretched way too thin already.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 15, 2008)

We should be inducing Russia to join the West, not forcing them to join with the Chinese. Zbigniew Brzezinski warns of that danger. A lot of Middle Eastern rulers who control the oil need external support to stay in power, and if they can't get it from us they could get it from the Russians/Chinese together and we'd be expelled from the region.

In the long term, fine, but first we need an alternative energy economy in place.


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