# Why Do Some People Have Issues With Spitfire Audio's Marketing?



## Reznov981 (Apr 29, 2022)

Hey all, this sort of sounds like a click bait post but it’s an honest question.
I see a *lot* of posts on different threads about Spitfire’s marketing that carry a bit of an eye roll tone to me. I don’t think the company’s perfect or anything, but in every video I’ve seen by them, they do play the instrument they’re talking about, so no matter what they say you can still hear the sounds and make the decision of if it’s good yourself, right? If Paul Thompson is very excited to show us… isn’t that just what any company would say? Would people prefer “hi guys Paul Thompson here, and I’m feeling a little _apathetic_ about our new strings library, Abbey Road 3: Journey to the Center of the Earth”?

Love to hear people’s thoughts, but if we can avoid being outright spiteful I would appreciate that ❤️

EDIT: This thread has opened up some feelings that, while honest and that’s always a good thing, could quickly instigate divisiveness. As a result, I ask that people only further contribute if you really want your voice heard and can be quite certain about good intentions. Let’s not spread or promote hate/aggressiveness! ❤️
And just to clarify, I like Spitfire’s products and their videos. Not because the at I think they’re perfect, but I do think they’re really good


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## Evans (Apr 29, 2022)

Generally speaking, people don't like marketing that they feel doesn't speak to them.

When it does, they don't usually make conscious note. 

Water is wet.


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## CT (Apr 29, 2022)

I think they were the first to really adopt a flavor of modern corporate-feeling marketing so inevitably that is going to put people off. I don't hate it, I mostly ignore it and occasionally scoff/think of the quaint artwork and writeups they used to rely on. In any case, I doubt Paul himself is the source of dislike for people. He's lovely!

I think other developers who have followed suit are sometimes more actively "cringey" with how they implement the strategy.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 29, 2022)

They are very good at marketing. Certainly from a professional standpoint, they are operating at a very, very high standard. However, certain people dislike Apple's marketing too - and yet, for many companies (and marketers), it is the benchmark. Some people here seem to want marketing to be literal, to the letter, and not comprised of any emotion or storytelling. That's not marketing though - that's a fact sheet.


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## Cdnalsi (Apr 29, 2022)

I'll go a bit further and say it's quite a common unfortunate trend to hate on things that are done really well. I'm certainly not immune to intellectual jealousy, and mediocrity is comfortable, though there certainly seems to be a misbalance in how people handle professional threat towards hating.


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## Composer 2021 (Apr 29, 2022)

I think their marketing is cool. There is a reason they have such a high following.


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## Reznov981 (Apr 29, 2022)

It seems the people who I normally see commenting about the marketing don’t want to comment here, because everyone so far is being quite considerate and not negative. Thanks people! Still curious to hear from anyone is isn’t a fan as to why they feel strongly about it (it feels like half of what I see about Spitfire around here is a remark about how their marketing is better than their products, which I’m not sure I agree with!)


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## Jdiggity1 (Apr 29, 2022)

It was a few factors, and admittedly has a different feel to it now than what it did a few years ago, but they developed a reputation as being a 'high production-value hype machine'- where every effort is made to build anticipation _before_ a release, so you can't possibly resist that BUY button.

The "meme" being that you start a thread to say "something is coming" with no other information but a date, then on that date you release a short non-descript but high production-value video that shows 6 seconds of something in slow motion or that is difficult to make out what it is, hopefully with a new buzz phrase - `"It's all about to change"` - the community will keep that hype going with a speculation thread until you host a live video "event" a week or two later where you finally share what the product is going to be (it's strings), some honest thoughts about how groundbreaking and industry-shaking this new release is expected to be, honestly it's my favourite product to date, and a huge congratulations to the team for this remarkable undertaking, simply extraordinary, phwooaaarr!, really. really incredible stuff.

As a consumer, you then come back to the forum and try to work out which one of the 3 simultaneous threads you need to read to get the gossip, or what download speeds you should be expecting, while there's about 4 animated ads in your face about that same product. You buy the product, then realise you still can't write music.
So overall, it can be an overwhelming 'marketing' experience for several weeks, for what you later realise is "just another sample library", and you swear to never let the fancy drone footage of pine trees or community-driven FOMO fool you again.

----

It's been relatively mild these days, compared to how it once was, though the videos still contain roughly 2.5x more adjectives than is necessary.


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## Trash Panda (Apr 29, 2022)

Reznov981 said:


> It seems the people who I normally see commenting about the marketing don’t want to comment here


You just posted this less than an hour ago on a Friday night. 🤣


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 29, 2022)

For reference, one of the first iPhone commercials - one of the most successful consumer products of the last 20 years. Marketing doesn't need to spell things out to be effective.


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## cqd (Apr 29, 2022)

I have an issue with people who wave their arms around too much on YouTube videos..


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## Reznov981 (Apr 29, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> You just posted this less than an hour ago on a Friday night. 🤣


Hey it’s 5oclock somewhere 

You’re right though, I should give it more time. Apologies


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## AMBi (Apr 29, 2022)

The corporate speak and constantly grasping at buzzwords can make them come off as a bit artificial at times, but most of the time I just skim their walkthroughs for the sounds themselves, so I’m mostly indifferent.

Always love Oliver’s walkthroughs and Dan Keen has been a great addition


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## Reznov981 (Apr 29, 2022)

AMBi said:


> The corporate speak and constantly grasping at buzzwords can make them come off as a bit artificial at times, but most of the time I just skim their walkthroughs for the sounds themselves, so I’m mostly indifferent.
> 
> Always love Oliver’s walkthroughs and Dan Keen has been a great addition


Yeah that’s fair. Should we have an international law that “bespoke” can only be used for products of a certain price? 😂

You can’t deny though, Spitfire’s sound, at the very edge of silence, are utterly… beguiling


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## davidanthony (Apr 29, 2022)

Call me old fashioned, but I think marketing sampled orchestras like they're bottles of designer perfume is lame. It's the consumers who wind up paying for it, and the end product suffers. 

But credit to Spitfire as they were one of the first to realize there's more $ in selling lifestyles along with their instruments.


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## Alex Niedt (Apr 29, 2022)

I love Spitfire and own most of their stuff, but I do feel their marketing is so overblown that it doesn't match the quality they deliver. If they'd tone it down and come back to earth a bit, it probably wouldn't be so off-putting. Or...what I'd _really_ prefer is if they truly attempted to innovate in the sampling space so their ambitions/actions matched their words. But when you constantly tell people you're releasing gamechangers and the libraries are really just more of the same, as far as quality and innovation go, _and_ they're often packaged in a player with a LOT of room for improvement (to put it nicely), people are just going to roll their eyes at some point.


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## constaneum (Apr 29, 2022)

I don't hate it but I'm amused by it. Haha


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## cqd (Apr 29, 2022)

^^That's it like..
I'll never forget a lad I saw on Facebook after paying 700 quid for BBCSO who couldn't get it to work on his computer properly and couldn't get results he was happy with, and he was like "well, maybe making music isn't for me.." after spending 700 quid on feckin BBCSO, with no recourse, because of their marketing..


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## Lee Blaske (Apr 29, 2022)

I'm a big fan of Spitfire. They're doing a lot for the industry, and they're extremely generous with all the free stuff they give away in their LABS series, not to mention what Christian Henson has been doing with Piano Book.

Their marketing videos are generally really well produced, and informative. The only problem I can imagine on the horizon for them is that they've built a very large company which I imagine needs to keep new library titles coming on a very regular basis to keep things humming. Certainly, there are interesting things out there yet to be done, but I think the market has reached saturation on a lot of the more bread and butter libraries. Can each new release generate a large amount of excitement and command a substantial price? I think this remains to be seen. For example, I perceived what looked to me like a lack of enthusiasm with the recent "Polaris" release. Christian has a knack for doing great videos, but it sort of seemed to me that he was discovering the Polaris library and presets while doing the video, itself. There weren't any additional support videos from other Spitfire folks, and there were only four audio demos. There didn't seem to be much excitement about promoting that library. Is everybody there just busy, or did they conclude it was a dud - saving the enthusiasm for another library that will be coming out soon?

The way prices have been going down for sample content, people might really be expecting something major in a library that's priced between $200-$400. Troels might be onto something with all of the new SoundPaint libraries in the $10-$50 range. I'll spend money in that price range pretty quickly without doing much agonizing or soul searching (or needing to get opinions from others, watch additional revues/demos, etc.). OTOH the SoundPaint model is no special introductory price break, so I don't feel pressured to "Buy now!" I know that stuff is there and quick to download if the need arises.

I do think think that sample library development, marketing, and pricing is still in a period of rapid evolution. What's been working for Spitfire (as well as others) in recent years might not continue to work in the future. All of these companies will need to be very nimble to survive. New developers are popping up all the time, and I don't think this is a limitless market. We can't have everyone in the world sitting behind a DAW making tracks for media, streaming and music libraries.


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## constaneum (Apr 29, 2022)

I've never bought the SA player products. But their kontakt ones seems to be working quite well...I do find their samples recorded quite well and I like the fact lots of articulations are offered even though their legato aren't that superb. However I do hear great things about their appsasionata strings being one of the smoothest legato


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## Jdiggity1 (Apr 29, 2022)

Reznov981 said:


> Is that… a frequent feature of Spitfire videos? 😅
> I thiiiink I can maybe see Christian doing that in my head? Lmao


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## Casiquire (Apr 29, 2022)

I don't comment on most Spitfire posts because none of their products seem to interest me, the marketing is annoying, and if I mention anything to that effect, I'll get bombarded by people saying "BuT yOu'Re StIlL cOmMeNtInG" so i find it all really unpleasant. But to answer more directly, it's very annoying to see a thread pop up with no information whatsoever but like a black box, and then it stays at the top of the feed for like a month, and I just want to know what the dang product is but by the time they start to announce information we're like ten pages in and it's a nightmare to learn about the product itself from there on out.

My complaints have nothing to do with their informative videos or personalities.

Oh also a few years ago they were always annoyingly hyperbolic. Every new product was a game changing masterpiece. Then they started discontinuing their game changing masterpieces from time to time. It just gets to be too much.


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## TonalDynamics (Apr 29, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> I think they were the first to really adopt a flavor of modern corporate-feeling marketing so inevitably that is going to put people off. I don't hate it, I mostly ignore it and occasionally scoff/think of the quaint artwork and writeups they used to rely on. In any case, I doubt Paul himself is the source of dislike for people. He's lovely!
> 
> I think other developers who have followed suit are sometimes more actively "cringey" with how they implement the strategy.


Paul's never done a video I didn't enjoy.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 29, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> I don't comment on most Spitfire posts because none of their products seem to interest me, the marketing is annoying, and if I mention anything to that effect, I'll get bombarded by people saying "BuT yOu'Re StIlL cOmMeNtInG" so i find it all really unpleasant. But to answer more directly, it's very annoying to see a thread pop up with no information whatsoever but like a black box, and then it stays at the top of the feed for like a month, and I just want to know what the dang product is but by the time they start to announce information we're like ten pages in and it's a nightmare to learn about the product itself from there on out.


I don’t think Spitfire does that anymore - more so, those threads come people on the forum spying something on their social media. For example, there’s apparently a new Original coming May 3rd. Haven’t seen a single mention from Spitfire here about it.

OT seemed to have taken the baton for uninformative obscure pre-launch announcements for a bit, with that solve the puzzle BS.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Apr 29, 2022)

I find it relatively easy to tune out their marketing, so it doesn't bother me much. I mean, it's just marketing. It's a free floating variable that exists completely independent of the quality of the product. And they make some stuff I really like. 

In their video walkthroughs, once you skip past the talk at the beginning, they do a pretty straightforward playthrough of the instruments. In the product page, they are good about listing section sizes and articulations. 

With Spitfire, I find that the substance is usually there in the presentation, you kind of just have to look at it with clear eyes and tune out the noise.


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## Casiquire (Apr 29, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I don’t think Spitfire does that anymore - more so, those threads come people on the forum spying something on their social media. For example, there’s apparently a new Original coming May 3rd. Haven’t seen a single mention from Spitfire here about it.
> 
> OT seemed to have taken the baton for uninformative obscure pre-launch announcements for a bit, with that solve the puzzle BS.


Totally agreed, Spitfire took it down a notch and OT took it up again. But OT still hasn't quite reached the irritation of Spitfire in their peak lol! Let's hope they don't take that as a challenge.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 29, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> Totally agreed, Spitfire took it down a notch and OT took it up again. But OT still hasn't quite reached the irritation of Spitfire in their peak lol! Let's hope they don't take that as a challenge.


Indeed - though there seem to be a few other developers that keep creating new threads in the commercial announcements forum for the same product. But you don’t see any hate towards them really.

I think people do love to hate on Spitfire due to their position - for reasons they’ll give other developers a pass on. Some of this I think had been fueled (at least in the past) by some YouTube content that whips the crowd into a frenzy and they then come here and start instigating things. Pretty interesting to see the number of “New Members” that can pop up parroting somebody else’s agenda in those threads.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 29, 2022)

I don’t mind their marketing. My only gripe is that they should offer a time sensitive demo.…especially if a hyped library is _that _good.


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## Akarin (Apr 29, 2022)

I like everything they do. Most of their libs, their walkthroughs, their educational videos, their personal channels. In my eyes, they deserve to be an industry leader and sometimes I even buy their libraries even without listening to demos. 

...but you can't have fucking game changers and fucking new beginnings twice a month! At this point, they became their own meme.


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## Jackal_King (Apr 29, 2022)

Alex Niedt said:


> I love Spitfire and own most of their stuff, but I do feel their marketing is so overblown that it doesn't match the quality they deliver. If they'd tone it down and come back to earth a bit, it probably wouldn't be so off-putting. Or...what I'd _really_ prefer is if they truly attempted to innovate in the sampling space so their ambitions/actions matched their words. But when you constantly tell people you're releasing gamechangers and the libraries are really just more of the same, as far as quality and innovation go, _and_ they're often packaged in a player with a LOT of room for improvement (to put it nicely), people are just going to roll their eyes at some point.


Totally agree with you on this. Spitfire and 8Dio are probably two I own the most of in terms of companies and I like 80% of Spitfire's libraries that I own. It's fine to be transparent about the product they're promoting. But when a company keeps using "game-changer", "first time ever" or bragging about how the library is somehow associated with Grammy-awarded recording artists or producer every time as a gimmick, it kind of gives the consumers an immediate eye roll. Not everything that they release is the greatest thing since the iPhone. Composers and musicians mainly cares about is what the library is, it's functions, what articulations it comes with, how to compose the most out of it, what type music/genre is it best for and does it have portamento legato (had to throw that last one in there).


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## Saxer (Apr 29, 2022)

I'm not a big fan of announcements without content. This sort of: 
"*Hey look, we got something new*!" - "Great, what is it?" - "*Wait a week*!"

Other than that: They seem to be very proud of the things they produce and I really like that. They always did world class sample recordings and in the last few years they made great progress in playability and consistency (BBCSO and Abbey). So their marketing is justified. And it obviously works.


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## timprebble (Apr 29, 2022)

I don't hate their marketing, I mostly ignore it. And I think this reflects a dichotomy, in that I like to keep up on recent developments & new releases, but unless I very specifically 'Opt In' I really prefer not to be hyped... Same as Jackal_King described, I just want the facts and some examples of use. I don't subscribe to the influencer/cult of personality/TV infommercial approach, but it is easy to ignore. As the saying goes 'the opposite of love is not hate, its indifference'

But the real dichotomy is that every one of us is also a marketer, whether its applying for a job, pitching for a project or selling things we make. So we each decide whatever we feel comfortable with for our own work and that is the lens we each experience Spitfire through.

Related, and maybe of use:








The Basics of Publicity - New Music USA


Branding, media relations, and when to hire a publicist...




newmusicusa.org





"If you don’t promote your music then it won’t be heard, no matter how good it is. If you don’t talk about your art, no one will.....

The distinction—and it is a vital one—is between talking about what you have created in a way that is *thoughtful, concise, and honest* versus being a crass, egotistical self-promoter. We all know the latter when we see them, and while they might get some more exposure in the short term, they always lose in the long run since people get tired of having something pushed on them."


My emphasis, and I do feel Spitfire are *thoughtful and honest* in their marketing. Concise just requires selection as to exposure.


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## PaulieDC (Apr 29, 2022)

Reznov981 said:


> Love to hear people’s thoughts, but if we can avoid being outright spiteful I would appreciate that ❤️


Don't hate it at all, sometimes when day job is boring, a few-minute break immersed in ANYTHING orchestration is just that, a nice break. In fact, I always learn something when Paul Thomson does his excited videos for us (which take time to do). Probably won't make friends saying this, but why put energy into ranting on a company you don't even own? Just close the browser and move on to what's important in your world at that moment. And I say that with a bit of caution because I wonder how many times I've done that without realizing it... I'd say this thread is a good motivation to step it up a bit! Definitely myself included.

Of course, you're all idiots if you don't use Chamber Strings Pro.


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## jbuhler (Apr 29, 2022)

I see the marketing as required to cut through the media clutter. Sometimes it’s excessive. When it’s excessive it’s often humorous, and not always intentionally so. But mostly it seems harmless, and I find myself deflated on those rare occasions Paul doesn’t say he’s excited, which has becoming a kind of endearing tick. “Game changer” is perhaps less endearing but often funny as you watch Christian struggle with not saying it. He’s now mostly mastered that but struggles with “curated.” He loves himself some good marketing buzz words, and I suspect he knows exactly what he’s doing including failing to check himself in saying things like “game changer” or “curated.” In general I find him a wonderful actor, who’s developed a character I really like, and it’s one of the things that makes his videos work so well when others, especially some who try to emulate or parody his style, fail. They don’t understand the way the style intersects with the presentation of character the way Christian does, or rather the way “Christian” does.


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## Trash Panda (Apr 29, 2022)

Here is what I hate about Spitfire's marketing (which is admittedly much toned down these days) specifically on VI-C. I can easily tune out their social media and YouTube marketing when desired.

Spitfire Commercial thread: We're announcing a new product, but we won't tell you what it is!
Me: Clicks ignore thread
Spitfire Fan in Sample Talk: OMG! What could this new mysterious product be??? Let's speculate!
Me: Clicks ignore thread
Spitfire Commercial thread: Here's the announcement date of when we will reveal what is coming!
Me: Clicks ignore thread
Spitfire Commercial thread: Official New Product X Release thread!
Me: Clicks ignore thread
Spitfire Fan in Sample Talk: New Product X Sample Talk edition thread!
Me: _Throws hands up in the air_
Two days later:

Spitfire Commercial thread: We're announcing a new product, but we won't tell you what it is!
Me: _Defenestrates phone/computer_


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## dunamisstudio (Apr 29, 2022)

People just want a company to announce a new product, maybe even give a heads up to it coming a certain day. Like people have said, they're good at building suspense. Least they can hit their release date though, that I can appreciate.


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## rgames (Apr 29, 2022)

I think people are saying "marketing" but really mean "branding".

Spitfire are following the EastWest approach from days of yore. Highly branded products that yield a devoted (religious?) following. And before them you could say it was Garritan, though on a much smaller scale. Garritan even came with the very first web forum where devotees could fawn over his products (and those who didn't were kicked off).

They are *very* strongly branded products. Strongly branded products in any market will generate as much disgust as devotion. Compare them against a company like VSL, which has some branding but really uses functionality as its primary means of generating revenues.

"If you want to get rich, start a religion." - L. Ron Hubbard

rgames


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## Chris Schmidt (Apr 29, 2022)

Is Homay their marketing?

I've only ever seen Homay.

Why do people hate her? She seems nice.


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## DCPImages (Apr 29, 2022)

I don’t hate it. In fact, I think it is really good. I admire Spitfire.


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## Reznov981 (Apr 29, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> Is Homay their marketing?
> 
> I've only ever seen Homay.
> 
> Why do people hate her? She seems nice.


Homay is one member of the team who does their videos, and generally someone who hasn’t been criticised for the “over-hype” stuff that people complain about.


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## lgmcben (Apr 29, 2022)

Alex Niedt said:


> I love Spitfire and own most of their stuff, but I do feel their marketing is so overblown that it doesn't match the quality they deliver. If they'd tone it down and come back to earth a bit, it probably wouldn't be so off-putting. Or...what I'd _really_ prefer is if they truly attempted to innovate in the sampling space so their ambitions/actions matched their words. But when you constantly tell people you're releasing gamechangers and the libraries are really just more of the same, as far as quality and innovation go, _and_ they're often packaged in a player with a LOT of room for improvement (to put it nicely), people are just going to roll their eyes at some point.


This. Love it or hate it, this kind of marketing works. But overdo it and you become a meme company. Customers can see from miles away which part of it is bullshit.


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## KEM (Apr 29, 2022)

My biggest annoyance with Spitfire’s marketing is how everything is a “game changer” but it usually ends up being a free acoustic guitar library for Labs…


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## Markrs (Apr 29, 2022)

Jdiggity1 said:


> You buy the product, then realise you still can't write music.


Ain’t that the truth 😂😭


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## Casiquire (Apr 29, 2022)

Chris Schmidt said:


> Is Homay their marketing?
> 
> I've only ever seen Homay.
> 
> Why do people hate her? She seems nice.


I adore some of her videos!


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## Chris Schmidt (Apr 29, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> I adore some of her videos!


"Hithishomayfromspitfireaudio..."


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## Jerry Growl (Apr 30, 2022)

I think marketing strategists and communication experts generally miss or turn a blind eye to the fact that customers (or a portion at least) grow a certain type of resistance against exaggerated enthousiasm and exaggerated hyping. Result is people start taking everything you say with a pinch a salt, or maybe just start taking you not seriously at all.

It makes sense marketing strategists will promote exaggeration and hyping, mainly because that is their bread and butter after all.

For me, sales pitches and generally commercials online or anywhere kind of backfire because they mostly annoy me deeply. I find it insulting for people's intelligence mostly.

I really prefer a commercial presentation that shows of quality of the product rather than quality of the sales pitch or quality of the sales person. I'm not buying the sales person. Not even when it's Paul.

So no, I don't specifically hate Spitfire's marketing. I think I've developped a thick skin against marketing in general. And I don't think I'm special, I'm sure there are many more like me.

I think the level of marketing in our daily life shows the level of socio-cultural and intellectual development in general. The more aggressive and outpoken the marketing, the less sensible that level of development.


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## UDun (Apr 30, 2022)

I completely moved away from Spitfire. I was owning many products from them but their strategy to always release new stuff without improving/maintaining the previous ones, or in some cases rebranding everything under a new name... is very deloyal. Then claiming that the next product is revolutionnary works once. After that you lose trust.


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## Arbee (Apr 30, 2022)

I made my first and only purchase from Spitfire years ago and felt so dumb for falling for the hype and experienced great buyer's remorse. That's why.


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## Crowe (Apr 30, 2022)

Speaking as someone with a degree in marketing, hyperbole and 'Something is coming' garbage is very effective. Yet so are heroine and cocaine. Very effective. Also garbage. I simply find such marketing to be 'bad faith'.

Marketing like that is mere hype and shallow as my cat's watering bowl. It means nothing and says nothing about the product. Spitfire is subsequently quite bad at fixing bugs and problems within their software so their 'game-changers' leave rather a bad taste sometimes.

Now, I have a bunch of Spitfire products and I enjoy every one of them, warts and all, but I never enter the announcement threads anymore because they're pointless. I like Spitfire's Youtube channel and personable videos, but Spitfire's other marketing methods are akin to sewage to me.


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## MartinH. (Apr 30, 2022)

I am strongly in favor of *banning *all announcements of announcements and uninformative teasers, no matter if they come from the companies themselves or a user here makes a speculation thread because of some marketing teaser they saw on facebook. Just get rid of it all, zero tolerance. Not only would collectively thousands of hours spent on pointless speculation be freed up to actually make music or post something useful, I think it would also reduce the forum toxicity a bit. The forum is way too busy anyway and it would get those no-information bullshit threads out of the latest posts feed.


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## AndyP (Apr 30, 2022)

Sometimes when I think of Spitfire, I think of the typical telemarketer enthusiastically telling me that without the next "game changer" I won't be competitive or up to date. 

BBCSO as THE game changer left me rather disillusioned. 
Then Aperture came in the following sale as a give away for new buyers of BBCSO and with that they lost me as a customer. 

Then came ARO, AR1, AR2, in bites, and that actually didn't even interest me anymore. 

Bottom line, for me, it's just too much, too often, too little that justifies the hype. 

Since there are alternatives on the market, I see no problem in buying them. If Spitfire comes out with a product that actually makes me feel like "I have to have this", I will definitely buy something from them again. However, that hasn't happened in quite some time. Until then, I'll take a look at what they're up to from time to time and sleep on it.

The click numbers and posts in VI-Control at least prove that they are successful with their marketing. For me it's too much, in the end everyone decides for himself how to deal with it. Maybe I'm just not "more" receptive to the kind of marketing.


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## bryla (Apr 30, 2022)

Nothing to hate. Every new sample library they make changes everything.

It's true. Their best stuff is the BML stuff.


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## juliandoe (Apr 30, 2022)

I don't think that Spitfire's marketing campaign is different from other campaigns I've seen or done. 
I receive constant emails from several sample libraries and plugin developers that have the same approach. 
Basically, when you plan a campaign you go through several stages. I call them: 
Seeding, Anticipate, Reminder, Countdown, Announcement, Demonstration, Validation, Refreshment, Acknowledgment, Consolidation, Ultimatum, Legacy, Retirement. 
The frequency of their releases is strictly related to the frequency of their marketing campaigns, and, honestly, I prefer to be notified of a new upcoming product rather than the same old offer rebranded with a new name every week. I also find that the quality of their product is satisfying enough to justify a proper campaign. The approach that I see is that the price range is related to the features offered, keeping high-quality samples. That's the real marketing strategy because, in that way, they build a loyal following even with free or cheap products. Some people say that "annoying" is the tone used in their marketing with clickbait announcements. Honestly, I don't see other companies using a different approach. Writing this post I'm surrounded by two banners from two different companies that say "A new orchestral approach" and "Your new sonic playground". It does sound exactly like any other campaign from Spitfire or any other developer. I believe it's part of their marketing strategy and if they see an increment in sales from that, they will rightfully continue using it. 
Ignoring is the right way to avoid being annoyed by a marketing campaign but I believe that most people don't want to.


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## juliandoe (Apr 30, 2022)

Crowe said:


> Spitfire is subsequently quite bad at fixing bugs and problems within their software so their 'game-changers' leave rather a bad taste sometimes.


That's the real issue. Being too focused on releasing new stuff and not keeping updated and/or fixing old ones can lead to a decrease in sales and losing customers.


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## Bee_Abney (Apr 30, 2022)

Teases with little information breed disappointment. This can lead to resentment. If the tease just gets you to the point of wondering what it will be, then either it will be something that appeals to you or it won't be. For each individual, the chances are that it won't be.

Otherwise I don't mind the teases and premieres, I see it as a bit of fun - a guessing game. You can either play or not play. It does, in any case, leave me disappointed more often than not, since most of their products will not be ones that I am interested. Only very few will be ones I'd seriously consider buying.

Corporately adopted repetitive phrases that are barely descriptive such as 'on the edge of silence' do bother me. They are a deliberate attempt to by-pass rational deliberation. As is much of marketing. Even though Spitfire are great at providing detailed walkthroughs (except for Polaris...), they also include a lot of elements that are meant to influence you subconsciously. They certainly aren't alone in this. As someone who is vulnerable to manipulation and control by other people (due to mental illness) I find this personally painful. And in my low moments, it works on me. So this aspect of their marketing leads to my own self-loathing.

The aspects of their strategies that I dislike most work best on the least experienced. They can help them expand their market base; but they can also lead to people buying products from them that are the wrong products at the time.

I have never bought a library from them that I have not been disappointed in at first. This is not just because of the hype; but also because many of their libraries that I have bought have particularly limited functional versatility. Over time, I learn how to use the library better, and ultimately I have been happy with nearly all of the purchases I have made from them.

I don't mind their branding at all; just their marketing. And their player, which feels like a prison where the potential of some great samples and decent programming is limited to a too-narrow set options.

But my comment is not an answer to the question posed in the title of the thread. I don't hate their marketing, so I can't tell you why I hate it.


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## TomislavEP (Apr 30, 2022)

Big fan and user of SA products here. Personally, I've always found it difficult to connect the distinctive quality of their products with IMO overly aggressive social-media-driven marketing full of fancy words such as "game-changer", "trailblazer", "cutting-edge", "mind-blowing", etc. Also, the frequent sense of elitism that is highly evident while endorsing certain artists, institutions, styles, equipment, etc.

So far, none of this has really motivated me to buy a single SA product that I own. It was the undeniable quality and sonic aesthetics preferences that were always my first criteria. Although I generally dislike SA marketing approaches, this would certainly not deter me from truly enjoying the fine products that I have and looking forward to some new ones.


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## Manontroppo (Apr 30, 2022)

I don't hate it, I just don't like it. Mr. Henson seems to be talking loud and sayin nothin' (James Brown, 1972) most of the time. A lot of buzzwords too, and he gives me the impression that he is Misstra Know-It-All (Stevie Wonder, 1973) who is the one and only person (apart from Paul, of course) blessed with the ability to develop exciting, game changing, expertly curated sample libraries. I don't want lovely flautandos, I want a multitimbral player with a purge function in it. I will not spend 400+ Euros for samples recorded in the world's most celebrated recording location with a room information baked in that I personally do not like. I am not a fan of the salami tactics either, even if they have used "all-new recording techniques" while preparing the slices. 
Since I have experienced the transition from analog 2" tape to ADAT machines, and from a rack of S1100 samplers to Logic's EXS24 (that was game changing for me back then) I'm the wrong target audience anyway. And I just don't get it that a person who can barely read or write music declares himself to be a expert in orchestra libraries while curating presets for musicians who can decide for themselves what they want in a given moment. 
I think the spitfire marketing method works very well keeping in mind Henson's statement that "playing orchestral samples isn't really any different from playing a synth" (SA YT channel, 10/21/2018, around 3:00). Maybe it is that why I like most of the LABS stuff - a brilliant and a genorously transposed idea.


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## JCold (Apr 30, 2022)

I've bought some of their products, sometimes I find the videos they release extremely educational, sometimes not and I'm a little skeptical of the message. Just like every other ad for every other product. I sort of see it as a non-issue - if an ad is going to enrage you to the point where you won't buy a product, well...I guess don't buy the product. This seems like more of a concern for Spitfire's (and competitor's) marketing departments. <shrug>


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## SandChannel (Apr 30, 2022)

I don't mind their marketing because their products typically deliver and I've never felt buyer's regret after purchasing a library. That said, I would probably feel otherwise if their libraries were terrible and I felt like I was suckered by their marketing.


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## RSK (Apr 30, 2022)

Edward Givens said:


> Please add "curated" to the list.



OH!!

So all the hand waving is a Brit thing, not a Guy Michelmore thing. Got it!


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## Pappaus (Apr 30, 2022)

I can no longer hate their marketing because after the first few times of hyperbole and ambiguous Teasers, I easily tune them out. And so I love Spitfire despite the marketing because:

1) How many ways can you try to sell a string library— but they never Give up on trying to find that new way

2) As mentioned earlier, good documentation, videos, and manuals available onsite with a unified format that makes it easy to find whatever info I might want


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## AudioLoco (Apr 30, 2022)

Part of library investment, especially the more expensive ones, as the whole market is a non refundable territory (after download usually) by default, is putting in some time to listen to the demos and watch the walkthroughs and read and watch reviews.

Toyota will tell you in the add that their new model is a game changing earth saving best thing ever conceived to satisfy your most hidden modern desires and make you feel like an executive cigar chomping wolf of wall street boss of the planet and some minor adjacent planets too.
Honda has an ad telling you about the game changing smoothness of the champagne ride of joyful awe inspiring mountain electric earth saving engine made out of the strength and love of all the children of earth united for speed and control, ah and it has a skin caressing eco friendly bluetooth massage unit that will change the way you view the world.

It's just a car. You should know what you want in a car and ignore the marketing chit chat if you have any experience of living in a modern western capitalistic society.
So, unless you are the prince of Qatar or just a gullible person that easily falls for some pretty drone shots of mountain roads, you are going to read a few articles, comparisons and reviews and surely go to the dealership for a test drive.

It seems like some people never encountered advertisement in their whole lives - like, every day, since the moment they open their eyes in the morning and still don't know how to deal with it.

I have many many Spitfire products which paid for themselves quickly, I also skipped many of them, because my research and a bit of time spent indicated to me the ones I should get or not.


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## GtrString (Apr 30, 2022)

If you're a company, you have to market your products, otherwise you won't be for long. It is as necessary as it is crude. But the bottom line must be how happy the customers are with the products they buy. 

I think Spitfire provide good information on what to expect. I have been happy with what I got from them, and they actually exceeded my expectations.


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## AudioLoco (Apr 30, 2022)

Manontroppo said:


> And I just don't get it that a person who can barely read or write music declares himself to be a expert in orchestra libraries while curating presets for musicians who can decide for themselves what they want in a given moment.


And still this ignorant person's random and inferior mind has released creations that are in countless shows and films and tools (and presets) that are used by the best of our industry every single day.


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## mybadmemory (Apr 30, 2022)

“Don’t sell to people that need what you have. Sell to people that believe what you believe.”

Being successful in marketing is not about telling people about your products in an informative fashion. It’s about portraying the promise of a life people want to see themselves having.

Spitfire are masters at this. In many ways, they really are the Apple of the sample library world. I think people that don’t like their marketing simply doesn’t like marketing in itself.


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## Manontroppo (Apr 30, 2022)

AudioLoco said:


> And still this ignorant person's random and inferior mind has released creations that are in countless shows and films and tools (and presets) that are used by the best of our industry every single day.


This is a self-serving declaration of some sort, and you know that. It is really interesting how quick the defense alliance is on it's feet if you dare to write a lèse-majesté. The king-like aura that surrounds Christian Henson is a very good marketing trick as well, by the way.


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## RogiervG (Apr 30, 2022)

I hate their marketing (in a selfish way).. for teasing the modular orchestra but not yet having delivered it, or gave us a new sneak peak or more info 
i mean: it's been soooooooooooooo long since that little announcement 
I would prefer an announcement just a few months prior to release (not over a year: announcement was oct 2020)


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## ism (Apr 30, 2022)

Yeah ... I mean we all have lots and lots and lots of entirely legitimate reasons to dislike marketing. 

But none of these replies, even the very thoughtful ones, really describe the particular dynamics that we see on vi-c.


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## polynaeus (Apr 30, 2022)

I am entertained by Spitfire’s marketing. Can’t say I’m persuaded nor am I offended by it.

What do we think of their CEO Will and his YouTube channel?



Another form of Spitfire marketing? Or just a honest Vlog?

Regardless… I’m intrigued.


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## Michael Antrum (Apr 30, 2022)

I like the VSL marketing method.....

No pre-amble - here it is - here's some demos and videos - Buy it and get it immediately - don't like it ? Have a full refund.

And also - outgrown it or don't use it anymore ? - then sell it on.

I don't particularly like or dislike Spitfire marketing, Look at the BBCSO launch though and tell me it doesn't work. I think they have toned it down a bit recently, but I don't really take much notice these days...I don't need more products, I just need more time to study.....

Edit - Just going to Sheffield now to see Ennio at their local arthouse cinema.....


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## AudioLoco (Apr 30, 2022)

Manontroppo said:


> This is a self-serving declaration of some sort, and you know that. It is really interesting how quick the defense alliance is on it's feet if you dare to write a lèse-majesté. The king-like aura that surrounds Christian Henson is a very good marketing trick as well, by the way.


I was just stating the simple facts as a counter to emotive posting.


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## robgb (Apr 30, 2022)

I have some of their products and like some of them. Others not so much. I think their player is almost useless. Especially since I use and love Kontakt, and even more so after using VSL's synchron player, which is a lesson in how it should be done.

The reason I hate their marketing is because it's always the same predictable bullshit. Some big new thing is coming, but we aren't going to tell you what it is, you have to guess based on this little tease, but it's coming and it'll be amazing and just wait and see... and, of course, this bullshit works. Entire threads dedicated to "What could it be?" So they do it over and over and VI falls for it every time.

And ultimately, the game changer doesn't really change the game no matter how nice of a library it is. It's just hype. And hype generates interest and pre-sales.

I'm pretty sure this type of marketing has helped Spitfire grow, which is a good thing, but I personally find it tedious and fairly off-putting. I wish they would have put as much effort into actually building a good player, and providing workable demos of their products so we could try before we buy.... But then almost this entire industry is built on "buy it, win or lose—sorry no refunds" and creating demos would probably severely cripple sales.

Rant over. Carry on.


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## tmhuud (Apr 30, 2022)

polynaeus said:


> I am entertained by Spitfire’s marketing. Can’t say I’m persuaded nor am I offended by it.
> 
> What do we think of their CEO Will and his YouTube channel?
> 
> ...



I dont think this video helps them but whatever. And where’s the Spitfire logo on the ceramic cups. At the very least they should have custom coasters… (and she looks really bored…)


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## CT (Apr 30, 2022)

Manontroppo said:


> This is a self-serving declaration of some sort, and you know that. It is really interesting how quick the defense alliance is on it's feet if you dare to write a lèse-majesté. The king-like aura that surrounds Christian Henson is a very good marketing trick as well, by the way.


Oh get a clue. You don't have to be some kind of CH sycophant to see that the way you referred to him was eminently prickish.


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## Mike Fox (Apr 30, 2022)

If only their libraries were as good as their marketing made them out to be.

But it’s really more like this…


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## davidson (Apr 30, 2022)

It's kinda strange how you can call Amazon, Apple, or Native Instruments (and the people at the head of those companies) anything under the sun, but for some reason saying anything against spitfire is like taking a crap on the 10 commandments. They're not your friends people, they're just a business.


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## AudioLoco (Apr 30, 2022)

Do hate the company, abhor the brand, despise British airplanes from the 40s, loath Air studio's sound, detest the artwork, and most of all, abominate the marketing...

But, in general, just leave the people out of this.
Just be a decent person - it's easy if you try.


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## Manaberry (Apr 30, 2022)

I fell for their marketing and I just don't like how the thousands of euros I spent have been used for.
They lost me as a customer a time ago already. There is more innovative and interesting stuff out there.
That's all about personal opinions and experiences.


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## flampton (Apr 30, 2022)

I don’t have any issues with their brand or marketing. What I find funny is that their style has a tendency to attract fanboys and inverse fanboys (a fandom based on hating the company.) Both groups work for the company's marketing team for free and why you see posts like this


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## Pier (Apr 30, 2022)

They do make great products and I think the enthusiasm for their stuff is genuine. Although sometimes their communication is cocky and hyperbolic which I feel degrades their brand and image.


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## tmhuud (Apr 30, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> If only their libraries were as good as their marketing made them out to be.
> 
> But it’s really more like this…


Sadly I have to agree. abbey Road was a purchase I wish I could take back. Oh well.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 30, 2022)

Manontroppo said:


> This is a self-serving declaration of some sort, and you know that. It is really interesting how quick the defense alliance is on it's feet if you dare to write a lèse-majesté. The king-like aura that surrounds Christian Henson is a very good marketing trick as well, by the way.


I’ve never seen Christian like that, to me he has always seemed like a down to earth guy with a good sense of humour. Let’s also not forget the charity work these guys do for the community. Why all the negativity?


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## Arabinowitz (Apr 30, 2022)

I think Spitfire and Orchestral tools have by far the best marketing. They are focused on the aspirational aspects of marketing - that is showing you high production values and end results that help you to believe that you can be as cool and talented as them if you buy and use their products. A lot of experienced/talented people may see that and react badly because they know that talent in the missing ingredient and so the marketing falls flat. But the fact is NO ONE can sell talent. And they’re not pretending to sell it. 

Good marketing for creative tools is all about connecting with people, tapping into who they want to be and letting them imagine what they could do with the right tools.

All of that said, it still needs to feel genuine, and watching the videos of artists explaining their tools with genuine enthusiasm and excitement seals the deal. And you can’t argue, their presenters really do seem to love what they’re doing and what they’re making.

You have to accept that if that kind of marketing isn’t reaching you, it’s just not made for you. But it absolutely works, and there’s nothing wrong with it.


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## Manontroppo (Apr 30, 2022)

I feel like a Catholic, strolling around the mosque with dirty shoes on, and a beer in my hand. Interesting experience. (Attention: some irony involved here).


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## KMA (Apr 30, 2022)

I don't hate Spitfire's marketing.

This site is free for us to use and Spitfire pays for its ads. They can market their products however they choose, and I could opt to buy something else if that were to upset me.


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## Mike Greene (Apr 30, 2022)

Let's end the Christian (and Paul) portion of the discussion. Thanks.


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## dcoscina (Apr 30, 2022)

I don’t mind it. It gives me a heads up on products I might be interested in. For the ones that don’t interest me, I just pass on it. No harm no foul.


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## givemenoughrope (Apr 30, 2022)

bryla said:


> Nothing to hate. Every new sample library they make changes everything.
> 
> It's true. Their best stuff is the BML stuff.


My real gripe isnt the marketing (it's marketing so ofc I hate it, especially when some guy is excitedly looking at me and talking to *me*) except when it gets in the way of demoing the product you are buying (as opposed to the artisinal wood beams in the ceiling of the studio it was recorded w love in). What I'm not a fan of in general (and this isnt specific to SF but sort of emblematic of them by now) are the "game-changing libraries/products" which just sort of promote the sameness we've become accustomed to everywhere now. Need string samples done 50 ways? Sure. I bought all of them and they sound great. But sometimes im not totally sure who is making the music, them or I. It can often feel like a musical ouija board. The marketing doesng help.

edit- tbf my real grip isnt w SF or their marketing per se but the promise of what sampling (a collection of microperformances basically) can achieve that is implied within the marketing. That is hardly specific to SF.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 30, 2022)

I think the hyperbole swings both ways, at least on Vi-C. People say they want Spitfire to not over-exaggerate their libraries, but in the same breath say things like Spitfire abandons their libraries and never fixes anything, which is patently false.

Here's the fix history of Symphonic Strings as an example:

v1.4.2 (April 2021)
v1.4 (April 2021)
v1.3.1 (January 2020)
v1.3 (March 2018)
v1.2 (March 2017)
v1.0.2 (November 2016)
v1.0.1 (November 2016)

Also, if you pay attention to the up and coming media composers in LA (the ones actually scoring some of the smaller stuff for Disney, etc), you'll see they tend to have a LOT fewer sample libraries than many people on this forum have. And yet, are accomplishing what they need to do. So, maybe it really is possible to score things with less than some think.


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## RogiervG (Apr 30, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I think the hyperbole swings both ways, at least on Vi-C. People say they want Spitfire to not over-exaggerate their libraries, but in the same breath say things like Spitfire abandons their libraries and never fixes anything, which is patently false.
> 
> Here's the fix history of Symphonic Strings as an example:
> 
> ...


i think it's about what they fix. and how they communicate the fixes, that triggers people stating that they abandon libraries.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 30, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> i think it's about what they fix. and how they communicate the fixes, that triggers people stating that they abandon libraries.


I agree they don't communicate updates that well (you have to go check their Download application usually). However, find me another developer that has continually been updating their libraries for 5+ years based on incoming user feedback. Not to mention, the massive free update Spitfire recorded for Hans Zimmer Strings.


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## Robert_G (Apr 30, 2022)

*1. "I'm really excited today"
2. "This new library will be a game changer"
3. "This library is entering groundbreaking territory"
4. "etc, etc, etc"*

It's all BS....except #1.

Let me translate #1

*1. I'm really excited today* because we are a releasing a new library today that people will buy regardless of whether is it is good or it sucks because it has the 'Spitfire' brand on it and we will make a lot of money. It will probably have bugs that may or may not ever get fixed, but probably not because we are busy making new libraries to get more of your money. It might get updates but probably not because again....we are busy making more libraries to get more of your money. I know it seems like we abandon many of our libraries and that is because we actually do abandon many of our libraries because we are too busy making dozens of new libraries to get more of your money.

Strange how many so many people so blindly throw their money at them.....


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## jbuhler (Apr 30, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> So, maybe it really is possible to score things with less than some think.


This is very true and many of us just enjoy having a very large palette. I believe it’s true that you can’t have too many sample libraries but also believe you can get by with very little. And sometimes it’s fun to go back to something like EWQLSO or Symphobia or the original Albion One and see what music you still can pull out of it without supplementation.


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## Robert_G (Apr 30, 2022)

I want to be clear that I'm not against companies saying that updates and bug fixes take time. I have zero issues with that. My problem is when companies make BS excuses for NOT fixing bugs, etc...ie because they are busy.... but in that time span release 30 new libraries. To me, that a clear message that fixing libraries are not a priority.....that being why I stay far away from Spitfire Audio.

For example, as much as Cinematic Studios bug fixes and updates are like molasses for how long they take, Alex does NOT release dozens of libraries in between his fixes. We know any work he is doing is on those fixes and updates because nothing new is being released....so it's much easier to have respect for a company like that.


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## SandChannel (Apr 30, 2022)

Robert_G said:


> *1. "I'm really excited today"
> 2. "This new library will be a game changer"
> 3. "This library is entering groundbreaking territory"
> 4. "etc, etc, etc"*
> ...


What would you prefer? 

"Hey, here is some stuff we worked on. Buy it. Or not. Whatever. Thanks for watching."

If you don't like the products or how they promote them, just vote with your wallet elsewhere. I just don't understand why some people seem to be on a vendetta against them like there was some type of personal affront.


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## Arabinowitz (Apr 30, 2022)

Robert_G said:


> I want to be clear that I'm not against companies saying that updates and bug fixes take time. I have zero issues with that. My problem is when companies make BS excuses for NOT fixing bugs, etc...ie because they are busy.... but in that time span release 30 new libraries. To me, that a clear message that fixing libraries are not a priority.....that being why I stay far away from Spitfire Audio.
> 
> For example, as much as Cinematic Studios bug fixes and updates are like molasses for how long they take, Alex does NOT release dozens of libraries in between his fixes. We know any work he is doing is on those fixes and updates because nothing new is being released....so it's much easier to have respect for a company like that.


It’s the difference between small companies in large companies. Larger companies making tools have more than one product manager and engineer. You can only have so many people working on a specific product at a time. Try to imagine working with four other composers at the same time on the same piece of music. Only so many cooks can be in the same kitchen at one time. 

That doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re utilizing their product and resources well, but you can absolutely be putting out several products at the same time without one slowing down the speed of the other’s release.


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## artomatic (Apr 30, 2022)

The power of the "Ignore" button is bliss.
No complaints here.


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## ism (Apr 30, 2022)

Robert_G said:


> Strange how many so many people so blindly throw their money at them.....


Honest question: Do you really think that those of us who like SF libraries are that stupid?

I don't really wish to single out this comment in particular. But a lot of the above comments like this really go beyond expressing one's personal tests in how one like to be marketed to, and really seem - intentionally or unintentionally - to be directing a certain amount of condescending at people who like Spitfire. 


I mean, I don't much care for, say VSL libraries, for reasons that aren't going to all interesting to people who do. And VSL marketing is very much not to my taste either, for reasons that I can't imagine would be at all interesting to people who do enjoy VSL marketing. None of which is a critique of VSL. It's just not to my taste. (I'm ok, you're ok.). VSL is doing just fine without me, and this diversity of tastes and libraries and companies is to be celebrated - even if I derive no personal benefits form VSL libraries that I don't own.


And I do find the diversity of views here interesting. Your views on EWC vs other choirs are interesting - and very different form mine, of course. And we've discussed them very cordially and productively on the appropriate thread.

Similarly, @Casiquire 's accounts of why he prefers libraries like MSS the kinds of libraries that I'm generally drawn to are thoughtful and interesting. And these different perspectives are very genuinely interesting welcome and valuable. 

But there's a dozen posts on this thread alone that just seem to be taking an opportunity to condescend to people with different tastes. 

Which is of course, build right into the title of the thread.


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## Bee_Abney (Apr 30, 2022)

3DC said:


> I would understand this really absurd Spitfire Audio "marketing" debate if their product was really terrible or there was some shady business behind it. There is none, but I can see people use any excuse to smear the company trough topics that have nothing to do with their products.
> 
> They make more then excellent sample libraries. They are of course not perfect as no other library is on the market but if you can't squeeze anything decent from them maybe this music production business is really not for you.
> 
> ...


I qualify for membership of AbleARtist.org and I didn't know about it. So, you have my personal best comment on the whole internet this week award!

Thank you!

(There's no prize. Sorry.)


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## Robert_G (Apr 30, 2022)

ism said:


> Honest question: Do you really think that those of us who like SF libraries are that stupid?


No. My apologies to you if it came across that way.


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## CT (Apr 30, 2022)

Robert_G said:


> Strange how many so many people so blindly throw their money at them.....


Some of their slower updates annoy me. But when you're one of the few developers doing things right, I think you merit a bit of slack. I'd rather have to scroll past their marketing shtick, and now and then get peeved about something that's still not fixed, than deal with the entirety of some other developers' tools. 

The end results are what matter, and there, they deliver like only a handful of others. Obviously I'm not alone in finding that to be worth the tradeoff. Guess many of us are blind.


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## ism (Apr 30, 2022)

Robert_G said:


> No. My apologies to you if it came across that way.


Yes, I know you didn't mean any harm, so sorry to single out your comment in particular. So to be clear, it was just a rhetorical question.

I just wanted to make the abstract point that there's this implicit meaning baked into a lot of the kind of discussion around this.


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## Robert_G (Apr 30, 2022)

Arabinowitz said:


> It’s the difference between small companies in large companies. Larger companies making tools have more than one product manager and engineer. You can only have so many people working on a specific product at a time. Try to imagine working with four other composers at the same time on the same piece of music. Only so many cooks can be in the same kitchen at one time.
> 
> That doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re utilizing their product and resources well, but you can absolutely be putting out several products at the same time without one slowing down the speed of the other’s release.


There is some truth to that, but only some....and by that it would meant that there is a much higher majority hired for NEW libraries and maybe a few part timers hired for the bugs and updates at SF.


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## Robert_G (Apr 30, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> The end results are what matter, and there, they deliver like only a handful of others. Obviously I'm not alone in finding that to be worth the tradeoff. *Guess many of us are blind*.


Ok. I should be more careful to not throw the *majority* of SF customers in the 'blind' category...but there are definitely some that are like that....and some at VI too.


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## flampton (Apr 30, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> I qualify for membership of AbleARtist.org and I didn't know about it. So, you have my personal best comment on the whole internet this week award!
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> (There's no prize. Sorry.)


Well this makes the thread truly worthwhile


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## AlbertSmithers (Apr 30, 2022)

I like their products. But, sometimes when I watch their videos I feel like I'm going to a car dealership. I think their educational videos offer valuable insight, but I'm afraid to click them because I want to watch educational content as opposed to being sold something.


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## Polkasound (Apr 30, 2022)

Spitfire's style of marketing works so brilliantly for them because discussion about it generates as much publicity as the marketing itself. This thread is up to page 6, and that will probably double within the next 24 hours. Do you have any idea how many developers would kill for a free multi-page thread like this?


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## hlecedre (Apr 30, 2022)

Polkasound said:


> Spitfire's style of marketing works so brilliantly for them because discussion about it generates as much publicity as the marketing itself. This thread is up to page 6, and that will probably double within the next 24 hours. Do you have any idea how many developers would kill for a free multi-page thread like this?


True, they are getting attention here by this thread. However, the bad attention strategy works well for celebrities, it doesn't work for business.


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## Jett Hitt (Apr 30, 2022)

Back when BBCSO was introduced, the marketing was so over the top. The way they marketed that library was nauseating. I think that they have since reined it in, however. I don't mind most of what I see these days, but for a while there, it was out of control.


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## Polkasound (Apr 30, 2022)

hlecedre said:


> it doesn't work for business.


It depends. As long as a company's products work, then complaining about the strategy a company uses to market those products reflects more on the complainer than the company. I believe lurkers reading this thread are far more likely to want to find out why all the fuss over Spitfire, rather than avoid Spitfire based on how some people feel about their marketing.


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## d.healey (Apr 30, 2022)

I don't hate it, but I'm not a fan of announcements for announcements for announcements for something that's coming soon....


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## Bee_Abney (Apr 30, 2022)

d.healey said:


> I don't hate it, but I'm not a fan of announcements for announcements for announcements for something that's coming soon....



I want to buy the T-shirt. I'll tell my mother about this.


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## rgames (Apr 30, 2022)

Polkasound said:


> As long as a company's products work


Spitfire's products don't work for a significant number of people: you never know when their player is going to decide you're not licensed. And there are plenty of examples on this forum of people having exactly that problem. Sure, sometimes licensing problems happen when installing or after a re-install. But with Spitfire you can shut down one day and open up the next with no changes on your machine and, surprise! You can't load the libraries you were using yesterday, and then you wait 3-4 days for another activation. I'd put that in the category of "doesn't work."

Slightly OT, but it gets at why a lot of people are miffed with Spitfire, including me.

I think Spitfire libraries sound pretty good, though with many more annoyances than, say, a VSL library. But I quit using them because you never know when they're going to decide to quit working altogether.

You can brand yourself into success in any market where belief can overcome reality. Nike sneakers aren't quantifiably better than anyone else's, but they have huge numbers of people who think they are. Likewise with Coke and Apple. Spitfire competes in the same way. Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos, for example, showed that branding against reality in a company where reality matters eventually kills your company.

Spitfire is in a market where reality doesn't matter and their success is determined by branding, not the utility of their products.

rgames


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## ism (Apr 30, 2022)

rgames said:


> You can brand yourself into success in any market where belief can overcome reality. Nike sneakers aren't quantifiably better than anyone else's, but they have huge numbers of people who think they are. Likewise with Coke and Apple. Spitfire competes in the same way. Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos, for example, showed that branding against reality in a company where reality matters eventually kills your company


I'm truly sorry you're having these issues with the player. And it's of course very important to the "musicians helping musicians" ethos of vi-c that the player issues that a number of people are having are being transparently reported. And I of course fully respect that VSL is better fit for you.

But I'd just like to note, as neutrally as possible, that this not so much critique of Spitfire Marketing as a very general condescension towards on people who continue to buy spitfire libraries despite your experience. 




rgames said:


> Spitfire is in a market where reality doesn't matter and their success is determined by branding, not the utility of their products.



Case in point: how can this not be read as an attack on people who just happen to just have had a different experience than yours?


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## Roger Newton (Apr 30, 2022)

The way I see sample libraries is purely fiscal.

Research.

Can I use it?

Does it sound good even if the person(s) demonstrating it on YT can barely play a note?

Will it make me money?

What kind of potential and longevity will it have?

Will it make me money?

Naturally, it's not really the sample library that makes you money but they help tremendously because unless you're going to the big expense of hiring out studios and real players, you need to research a lot. But throughout time you soon get to realise through experience which ones really narrow it down. Spitfire are up there with a few others.

I used a Heavyocity library recently that cost 80 bucks in one of their sales for an album and so far in a relatively short time it's grossed over $10000. 

Treat these things like an investment and Research!


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## ism (Apr 30, 2022)

timprebble said:


> He's a troll. Thats what trolls do.


I don't think that the issue I'm trying to get at here is really trolling. I think that with a few exception, there's really not harm meant. 

But I do think that it's worth trying to gently pointing this dynamic of how these kinds of things are going to read. Because otherwise someone will eventually get offended, at which point toxicity ensues.

Reasonably civil thread so far though (except maybe for the stuff on Paul and Christian). So hopefully it stays that way.


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## Polkasound (Apr 30, 2022)

rgames said:


> Spitfire's products don't work for a significant number of people:


Everyone knows no product is going to work for everyone, but that reinforces my point. My point is to say that a successful company that puts out products that many people like and use is going to benefit from this kind of complaint-laced publicity for as long as that company keeps doing what they're doing. The only way Spitfire could screw up now is if they did something so bad, or created libraries so bad, that people stopped buying them and talking about them.


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## boinzy (Apr 30, 2022)

I don't mind the marketing. I like and buy their libraries. I appreciate their composers the most and the videos they share breaking down their demos. I find them really helpful and educational and not something we see enough of from sample producers, IMO.

What I find really... strange, I guess is the word... are the sycophants here who chime in on every Spitfire product post with a greasy slathering of overzealous support. I genuinely wonder if they're not Spitfire sock puppet accounts astroturfing this forum keeping SA threads elevated in the mix. That kind of marketing sucks, but not unheard of.

And if they're not sock puppets, what do they hope to gain with such enthusiastic praise. Attention from Paul and Christian? Free libraries? A job?

Cringe af.


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## Martin S (Apr 30, 2022)

boinzy said:


> I don't mind the marketing. I like and buy their libraries. I appreciate their composers the most and the videos they share breaking down their demos. I find them really helpful and educational and not something we see enough of from sample producers, IMO.
> 
> What I find really... strange, I guess is the word... are the sycophants here who chime in on every Spitfire product post with a greasy slathering of overzealous support. I genuinely wonder if they're not Spitfire sock puppet accounts astroturfing this forum keeping SA threads elevated in the mix. That kind of marketing sucks, but not unheard of.
> 
> ...


Has it occurred to you that maybe they just genuinely like the products they’ve purchased from SF so far, and are able to make the music they want to with said libraries? I think you might be over-interpreting just a tad…


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## robgb (Apr 30, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> If only their libraries were as good as their marketing made them out to be.
> 
> But it’s really more like this…


This is certainly how I feel about their core studio woodwinds library.


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## CT (Apr 30, 2022)

boinzy said:


> I don't mind the marketing. I like and buy their libraries. I appreciate their composers the most and the videos they share breaking down their demos. I find them really helpful and educational and not something we see enough of from sample producers, IMO.
> 
> What I find really... strange, I guess is the word... are the sycophants here who chime in on every Spitfire product post with a greasy slathering of overzealous support. I genuinely wonder if they're not Spitfire sock puppet accounts astroturfing this forum keeping SA threads elevated in the mix. That kind of marketing sucks, but not unheard of.
> 
> ...


I'm sure we'd all be fascinated to know who you think is greasily overzealous. Come on, if you're gonna go there, name names!


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## ism (Apr 30, 2022)

boinzy said:


> sycophants here who chime in on every Spitfire product post with a greasy slathering of overzealous support. I genuinely wonder if they're not Spitfire sock puppet accounts astroturfing this forum keeping SA threads elevated in the mix


Yes, you should name names. These are serious accusations, and you should back be willing to back them up.


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## pinki (Apr 30, 2022)

You know who you are…


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## pranic (Apr 30, 2022)

I'm generally very happy with the Spitfire products that I've purchased, and really appreciate their contributions back to the musicians that perform their instruments in the form of royalties. That's a commendable endeavour. I think they do a lot for the average hobbiest and newcomer to music making with their LABS series and the educational content published on youtube. They are amongst the more expensive libraries out there, but I've come to expect high-quality recordings and instruments from them, and for the majority of cases, I think they've delivered on that.

As for the more directed marketing, I'm being bombarded with so much content from all the developers out there, that I don't particularly feel any specific frustration with Spitfire. The only thing that annoys me, is how I'll often receive marketing materials letting me know that time is running out on a introductory product price that I've already purchased. In the data-driven world we live in, marketing systems often don't link back to point-of-sale and customer record systems. 

I always like the little guessing games of "What's the next library" with esoteric clues. Keeps us on our toes, I think


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## CT (Apr 30, 2022)

pinki said:


> You know who you are…


You too. Name names!


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## Land of Missing Parts (Apr 30, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> You too. Name names!


We do know one sock muppet account.


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## Mega (Apr 30, 2022)

I like their marketing because it seems more genuine than what I normally see. Keep in mind this is in relation to the way I'm bombarded with extreme hype marketing here in the U.S..

Christian Henson seems like a friend that's steering you in the right direction! 

However, I was disappointed by the way they marketed Polaris. I had to look at other reviews to get a clear idea of what it was and whether it would be useful for me. I like long, super indepth walkthroughs to help me decide on a product. It would have also been nice to see what type of composition Homay would've come up with for the library.


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## ShidoStrife (Apr 30, 2022)

I really don't hate it, more like I don't care about overhyping, that's what marketing do and it happens everywhere else.
I still prefer Spitfire's announcement of an announcement of a product that will come soon as promised, over some other companies' promise of new products/updates that never come. At least spitfire only officially starts marketing when the product itself is ready.


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## jcrosby (Apr 30, 2022)

Hey well at least they're not East West, who announce a product, release it a year late, then firesale it within 3 months


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## studiorom (May 1, 2022)

I can offer an anecdote. I recall watching SA demos and browsing their website, perhaps 2017-ish?. I had little to no idea how established they were at the time. Their offerings seemed beyond my reach (or mainly my pocketbook), but I was enamored by mention of the AIR Studio Montserrat Neve preamps used in engineering some of their libraries. Some time passed, I must have come across a dozen other players on the market, but when finally I was ready to take the plunge and drop actual $ on a sampling library, guess who I chose. I generally look forward to their releases, often on whim I'll type in their website URL and just joy-browse. I believe Paul and Christian's approach to marketing and content creation has ultimately paid dividends for them.


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## David Chappell (May 1, 2022)

SandChannel said:


> What would you prefer?
> 
> "Hey, here is some stuff we worked on. Buy it. Or not. Whatever. Thanks for watching."


That's pretty much the marketing strategy of Cinematic Studio Series/ Performance Samples/ Musical Sampling

Those also happen to be 3 of my favourite developers

So I guess that's a yes!


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## polynaeus (May 1, 2022)

David Chappell said:


> That's pretty much the marketing strategy of Cinematic Studio Series/ Performance Samples/ Musical Sampling
> 
> Those also happen to be 3 of my favourite developers
> 
> So I guess that's a yes!


Do you think that approach is helping those companies to grow?


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## ism (May 1, 2022)

David Chappell said:


> That's pretty much the marketing strategy of Cinematic Studio Series/ Performance Samples/ Musical Sampling


Which is cool. And these are genuinely great, innovative companies of technical virtuosity and artistic vision. (I particularly love Performance Sample. )

But I think it's also worth noting that there're not innovating in quite the same way that companies like SF, OT, Realitone, etc are. Vista or Soaring Strings or CSS are each great libraries - that play exactly to very established, very mainstream aesthetics. 

But something like OT's Tallinn ... well, what exactly is it? I've deeply grateful for Ben and David's (marketing) videos on this. And I'm similarly deeply grateful for Homay's (marketing) video on, for instance, Stratus. And for Mike's (marketing) video on Sunset Strings, and if Albion Solstice were my thinkg (which it isn't), I'm sure I would be deeply grateful for Christian's video on just what the hell Solstice is. Because despite being not my thing (I would have much prefer an new all virtuosic clarinet soloist Albion, personally), I can still appreciate that Solstice really takes a risk in expanding Albion's breadth of artistic vision. So that for all the SF's marketing can descend into vacuous happy talk as much as any other company (which entirely deserves critical pushback), there's also an awful lot of deeply valuable content in the marketing that genuinely suppose people in exploring the depths and novelty of these kinds of libraries. 

So, loads and load of respect to the above companies and their well deserved success with relatively minimalist marketing, as well as for their amazing technical innovations and consistency of artistic vision. 

But minimalism is an option for them because they're not attempting to open any wildly new directions in their artistic space in the way that companies like Realitone, OT and SF are. 

In fact, if I were to make a criticism of marketing strategy here, it might be that I would love more marketing material from Realitone. Sunset Strings has such amazing depths that I've still exploring that here, much as it pains me to say anything nice about marketing (and I literally have multiple shelves of books on how evil marketing is), here's a context more marketing would be immensely welcome. 

Whereas for libraries like Soaring Strings or Vista ... I mean, I really love them, (Vista especially) ... but they pretty much do just exactly what they say on the tin. So here's a context where the minimalist marketing is perfectly sensible.


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## mybadmemory (May 1, 2022)

Spitfires growth and loyal fan base proves that their marketing (or rather community building) is working out great.

Something that is not really surprising at all, considering the amount of great free and cheap instruments, generous tutorials and learning recourses, and inspiring lifestyle and behind the scenes videos they offer.

Be generous with things that truly provide real value to people and the people will come your way and become loyal.


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## muk (May 1, 2022)

polynaeus said:


> Do you think that approach is helping those companies to grow?


Not that I am an expert on the matter, but I think neither relentlessly hyperboling, nor staying with facts helps growth per se. What's necessary is visibility. So Christian's and Paul's youtube channels certainly help, as do paid ads etc. Endless teaser campaigns seem to work well too, judging by the post counts these threads ellicit. But filling the ads with hyperbole instead of facts? I don't think that it generates visibility, nor that it drives sales.

If Spitfire would run the exact same amount of campaigns and ads, but change the tone to something more factual instead of hyperbole, I don't think that sales would diminish. But who knows. I can only infer from my own reactions. And personally, I am much more likely to buy a library if an ad reads: 'this library is good at x and y. It's not created to do z'. This gives me confidence that the developer had a clear concept for the product, and believes in this concept enough to communicate it transparently. If an ad goes 'This will change the world of sampled instruments forever', my reaction is 'of course. Carry on.' 

Spitfire's marketing is fantastic at creating visibility. I think that's undeniable. However, how much of that is part of their marketing lingo, and how much of it is because of the informative videos/walkthroughs/tipps/interviews they create, that's hard to know. In my opinion they absolutely nailed the latter part. But the mixed to angry reaction to their marketing lingo might be an indication that for the former there's room for improvement.


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## ism (May 1, 2022)

mybadmemory said:


> Spitfires growth and loyal fan base proves that their marketing (or rather community building) is working out great.
> 
> Something that is not really surprising at all, considering the amount of great free and cheap instruments, generous tutorials and learning recourses, and inspiring lifestyle and behind the scenes videos they offer.
> 
> Be generous with things that truly provide real value to people and the people will come your way and become loyal.


Alternate theory: maybe the phenomenon that some people seem to like Spitfire libraries has something to do with a certain resonance of artistic vision, and not merely that people are mindless automatons enslaved to marketing?

Just a thought. Carry on.


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## Casiquire (May 1, 2022)

The interesting thing about this conversation is that nobody's talking about the same things. The OP only joined a year ago and so missed the worst of the Spitfire hype madness in here, and i think a lot of other commenters are new here as well. Half the people in this thread hear "marketing" and think "those helpful videos from Paul or Homay?" And then people like me will say "no that's not what anyone is complaining about, we're talking about this." But then the next comment will go right back to "I love their informative videos!"

Spitfire used to be maddening with their marketing, and there used to be a very aggressively defensive group of fans. In the last few years, both of those things have come down to a reasonable level. That's why there's so much disconnect.


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## mybadmemory (May 1, 2022)

ism said:


> Alternate theory: maybe the phenomenon that some people seem to like Spitfire libraries has something to do with a certain resonance of artistic vision, and not merely that people are mindless automatons enslaved to marketing?
> 
> Just a thought. Carry on.


Of course! I wasn’t at all suggesting anything like it. I love spitfire precisely because of the reason you say, but I also admire and respect their marketing and community building. For me the two go hand in hand. They make products that speak to me and works for me, but they also do something else. They make me loyal though communicating not just pure product specifications but aspirations and beliefs I can sympathize with.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (May 1, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> If only their libraries were as good as their marketing made them out to be.
> 
> But it’s really more like this…


That reminds me of the burger bar scene from Falling Down!


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## SandChannel (May 1, 2022)

As a newer member and a rank amateur musician, I am surprised when Spitfire threads go sideways like this. I spent most of my musical journey playing guitar, but it was one of those Spitfire videos that inspired me to dig deeper into orchestration. Spitfire introduced me to this forum and I am thankful for that, too. All of this is just part of the journey and there is no time for negativity.


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## ism (May 1, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> Spitfire used to be maddening with their marketing, and there used to be a very aggressively defensive group of fans


You're spot on about the missing context and the all talking at cross purposes that's arising from it on this thread.

But I'd also like to suggest that perhaps you're also miss a really key piece of context here. And this speaks to what I'm trying to tease out of this thread (gently, I hope) - which is that "defensiveness" really isn't invoked *because* some of us here are actually the greasy slavering marketing-brainwashed drones forever being implied, but that it arises instead from precisely the ad-hominem in this accusation.

And one of the merits of this thread is the transpancy which which it demonstrates the larger phenomenon that complaining about SF marketing on vi-c can't ever seem to ever stop with saying, "this isn't my thing", or "I feel it's hyperbolic", or "I don't really like these libraries", or "I have technical issues with the player" or "You know, I really need my trombones to go louder" or "I loath scandanavian minimalism", or even "people who like flauntanto suck".



Because of course, the thread starts with perfectly reasonably critiques of marketing - all perfectly valid critiques, many of which I share. No problem.


But then, the pile begins to emerge. And it's no longer enough to express personal critique or even distain for the marketing.

And slowly, comments start to project this distain not merely on the specific marketing being critiqued, but on anyone who has a different exprerience.

Seriously, read through this thread through the lens of not someone like yourself who's pretty vocal about not caring about SF libraries and the aesthetic spaces they open (which, needless to say, I totally respect), but instead someone who maybe has a dozen or so SF libraries and really loves most of them. And though this lies perhaps you can see a lot of the posts on this thread really can't help but being read as pile on of insult after insult.

Of course, slowly at first. With, I'm sure, perfectly unintentional implications and innuendo that of people who don't share the superior taste in libraries of the poster, and consequent distain for a particular style of marketing are mindless suckers, must therefore be brainwashed by marketing.

But then, as is the nature of such pile-ons, the moment builds as posters become more and more comfortable in make this project element of their attacks more and more explicit. Util people who aren't sufficiently contemptuous of marketing and maybe even actually really like SF libraries become "greasy" and "slathering" and "sock puppets" and "astroturfing" and "sycophants".



So I'm dramatizing a bit for clarity ( but, honestly, only a very liitle bit). And seriously, it's the internet, I'm not going to loose sleep over any of this.

But I do think it's worth trying to forground this dyanmic bit. Because, honestly, taken as a whole, and read though this lens, this thread actually contains some of the most vicious and toxic and personal attacks on a certain membership of this community that I've seen.


And note also that, when viewed through this lens - though I'm certain with no ill intentions - your above risks adding to this pile on with the accusation of "aggressively defensive".

Let me explain ...

Now first, I'm aware that I've been stirring the pot on this thread a little bit here. But I hope that it's clear that I'm really not trying to create conflict, but to understand the dyanams And equally clear that neither am I a "greasy" "slavering" "sock puppet" automaton expressing a mindless automaton corporate drone loyalty towards SF or any other corporate entity. 


But I do think that the community as a whole might benefit from understanding how these dynamics quietly evolve into a space where these kinds of insults and personal attacks somehow becomes acceptable.


On the whole, the has been a (mostly) civil and restrained thread. But in general what happens on such threads, is that eventually someone will take offence at what are a stream of undeniable - though often somewhat submerged undeniable insults. And ... restrain will fail and they'll hit back - and we all know the toxic death spiral that invariably ensues.

And while I think it's perfectly legitimate for a certain portion of the community to take a very genuine offence at quite a lot of what's going on on this thread, this dynamic is very often submerged, and indeed many of the insults genuinely unintended.

And perhaps ... if we could just foreground it and discuss it a bit more clearly and respectfully, we'd all be a lot better off?


So again, I think you're absolutely right about the conflations and cross purposes of this thread in general.


But can I offer in particular - and in the interests of developing some resources in understanding the dynamics of and *avoiding* the ensuing toxic death spirals (and get back to discussion about actual music in which we can again benefit from our diversity of perspectives) - that while you're also right about the phenomenon of "aggressive defensiveness", the context that's missing is origin of this defensiveness. In fact, your post risks performing - unintentionally I'm certain - precisely the underlying sleight-of-hand that triggers this "aggressive defensiveness".


Here's what I think is the basic conflation:

If we try to empathize with each other's perspective here, I think we can agree that there are two distinct possible sources of this "aggressive defensiveness":


Theory 1. So first, we have allegations that a certain segment of the vi-c community are "sycophantic", "greasy" "slathering" "astroturfing" "sockpuppets", and generally corporate drones, also described (on other threads) by non SF enthusiasts as "fucking prick" which no valid critical opinions beyond theory mindless defence of "Daddy Spitfire". And of course also "aggressively defensive".

Theory 2. And then we have an alternate perception of this same segment of the vi-c community as people who ... well, just really not any of these things. But just people who's tragic flaws are really nothing more that really loving flautando.

Except that, well yeah, maybe they're a bit defensive sometimes. 

And yeah, now that you mention it, I think you're probably right that they're maybe even sometimes the veer into the "aggressively defensive". Notably when hitting back at the sheer volume and viscousness of such slurs implicit or explicit in theory 1.


So what I'd really like to suggest here is that you're absolutely right that there's an aggressive defensive that sometime emerges on this kind of thread that is deeply unhelpful and that should be discouraged. 


But at the same time, it's very important to not conflate :

a) an "agressiven defensiveness" arising from the ... lets call them the "flautando-positive" segment of the vi-c community ... arises because as people, they actually are the horrendous pieces of shit sorry excuses for human beings that Theory 1 describes them as being. 

and 

b) an "aggressive defensiveness" that arises not because the flautando-positive segment actually are the kind of people described in theory 1, but because theory 1 is really just aggressively offensive ad hominem. 


Obviously, I'm dramatizing a bit for effect here.  


And either way, I don't in suport this "aggressive defensiveness" that you observe any more that I condone the of slurs that triggers it. 


We need to find a way to stop both.


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## kassad (May 1, 2022)

I appreciate Spitfire's marketing. Maybe five years from now I'll roll my eyes but as a beginner it's extremely helpful. I knew I wanted some orchestral sounds but I didn't know much about it. I stumbled through Sonatina Orchestra and looked at the cloud options, as most boxed stuff was way out of my price range and I only had random Youtube reviews (as far as I knew) to make a judgment. Knowing where to stake a purchase was really confusing.

Then I found Labs and soon after, BBC Symphony Orchestra Discover Edition, which blew my socks off. I was suddenly very aware of Spitfire and their wealth of product walkthroughs (i.e. their marketing). It really helped me decide what was right for me so I could make the one expensive purchase I could handle (BBC Core, which I adore). Thank you Homay and your fantasy song walkthrough for cinching the deal.

If I had any feedback, it's to support product life cycles a bit more. I would also be happy to purchase small expansions to the products I own, for example. Upgrading to BBC Professional is unattainable for me at a price of $550 -- even when it's on sale -- and other standalone products that are $30 to $50 don't always cut it and tend to disappoint.


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## Evans (May 1, 2022)

kassad said:


> but as a beginner it's extremely helpful.


As a self-proclaimed beginner, what do you feel about the volume of content and partial redundancy of products (BBCSO, SSO, AR1OF, etc.)? Is it easy to wade through? Is it confusing? Confusing, but Spitfire does enough to help you through it? How much effort, research, and so on did it take before you got Core?

I'm no pro composer, but I've been meandering in and out of "this space" since the late 90s and I'm sure take for granted this sort of thing. The last time I tried to follow a new-to-me sport, I had a heck of a time playing catch-up.


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## kassad (May 1, 2022)

> As a self-proclaimed beginner, what do you feel about the volume of content and partial redundancy of products (BBCSO, SSO, AR1OF, etc.)? Is it easy to wade through? Is it confusing? Confusing, but Spitfire does enough to help you through it?


The only difficulty I had at first was understanding the difference between something like the Albion lineup and BBC. Watching a few walkthrough videos cleared that up. I knew I wanted control over individual sections, especially after playing around with the free BBC Discovery Edition. I never really looked at their older products like SSO, I just assumed they were deprecated by newer products that lived in the same space. I will admit that notion became a little murky once Abbey Road came out. I feel like they stumbled a bit on marketing that one. I have this hazy notion it lives somewhere in between Albion and BBC but I'm not really sure. But I have what I need for now so I haven't looked too deeply.


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## bvaughn0402 (May 1, 2022)

I appreciated their marketing, but despite how toxic it might get here ... it is toxic EVERYWHERE.

So them abandoning people here on this forum is something that will greatly impact my support of them moving forward.


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## ALittleNightMusic (May 1, 2022)

bvaughn0402 said:


> I appreciated their marketing, but despite how toxic it might get here ... it is toxic EVERYWHERE.
> 
> So them abandoning people here on this forum is something that will greatly impact my support of them moving forward.


Lol what? You want personal attention from Paul and Christian or something?

FYI - their support team posts here occasionally still and Karma, the developer behind Appassionata Strings, was very present in that thread, answering questions and taking feedback. Even made some custom videos for the forum.


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## muziksculp (May 1, 2022)

Actually, I like Spitfire Audio's Marketing techniques. At least they keep me excited about new stuff to buy. Oh... and when they start teasing us with some *Abbey Road One Modular Orchestra* '*coming soon* *! * Type of teasers, I will love them more, and more, and get super excited.


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## bvaughn0402 (May 1, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Lol what? You want personal attention from Paul and Christian or something?
> 
> FYI - their support team posts here occasionally still and Karma, the developer behind Appassionata Strings, was very present in that thread, answering questions and taking feedback. Even made some custom videos for the forum.


Yes I expect them to come over my house and cook me dinner. 

and yes … that developer being on here was a major reason I bought those strings.


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## jamwerks (May 1, 2022)

Reznov981 said:


> It seems the people who I normally see commenting about the marketing don’t want to comment here, because everyone so far is being quite considerate and not negative. Thanks people! Still curious to hear from anyone is isn’t a fan as to why they feel strongly about it (it feels like half of what I see about Spitfire around here is a remark about how their marketing is better than their products, which I’m not sure I agree with!)


You're the one that puts the word "hate" in the title of the thread, then ask people to be "kind". A strange undertaking on your part imo!

We live in tough times of war and divide, and here you are calling to discuss your "hate" towards a company's marketing practices? Because they talk about their passion and art? Are you serious?

Get a life dude!


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## Martin S (May 1, 2022)

jamwerks said:


> You're the one that puts the word "hate" in the title of the thread, then ask people to be "kind". A strange undertaking on your part imo!
> 
> We live in tough times of war and divide, and here you are calling to discuss your "hate" towards a company's marketing practices? Because they talk about their passion and art? Are you serious?
> 
> Get a life dude!


Umm…I think you need to read again the very paragraph you replied to…Maybe even post #1 in its entirety.


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## jononotbono (May 1, 2022)

People "hate" Spitfire's marketing? Ladies and gentlemen we have arrived.

Goodness me, I wish the marketing of a software developer affected my life so much that it caused me to feel HATE!


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## Kyle Preston (May 1, 2022)

People that "hate" Spitfire Marketing vs Spitfire's Response:


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## sean8877 (May 1, 2022)

SandChannel said:


> What would you prefer?
> 
> "Hey, here is some stuff we worked on. Buy it. Or not. Whatever. Thanks for watching."



I would actually prefer that for marketing of all products. Just state the facts and skip all the manufactured hype/mind games. I understand that businesses feel like the need for marketing to stand out from the crowd but it really just feels like emotional manipulation to me and is a complete turn off to their product. Obviously I'm not a marketing/business person so I'm sure there are those that feel differently about it but that's just my 2c as a consumer.


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## ridgero (May 1, 2022)

I simply ignore their marketing for the most parts.


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## Double Helix (May 1, 2022)

ridgero said:


> I simply ignore their marketing for the most parts.


Yes, thanks for this, @ridgero 
It takes too much energy to hate/much less energy to ignore
(this can be applied to many issues in life)


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## John Longley (May 1, 2022)

Their marketing totally stopped annoying me when I stopped buying their stuff.


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## timbit2006 (May 1, 2022)

If I was rich I'd find Spitfires' ads very coy and cunning but instead they fill me with a bitter resentment that I can only express in the form of various non-sensical rants on forums.


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## CT (May 1, 2022)

They might make pills for that.


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## Virtuoso (May 1, 2022)

The turning point for me was Hans Zimmer Piano, which was described in the Spitfire Marketing blurb thusly:-



> legendary trailblazer Hans Zimmer presents the ultimate piano library...
> Hans' crack team of engineers, and the award-winning Spitfire crew...
> ... top-of-its-class writing tool
> ...no-holds-barred approach
> ...


Two hours of playing after I’d shelled out hundreds of dollars, I just couldn’t believe the wide gulf between the claims and the sloppy, careless reality. The piano was so horribly flawed I just felt I’d been conned. That was the point where the emperor no longer had clothes and I started to spot sloppy, amateurish bugs and errors in many of their products that had no business making it through to release. For the prices they charge, I think customers have a right to expect more.

@ALittleNightMusic made the point earlier in the thread that Spitfire do update their libraries and gave an example, but just look at the time frames in the example. If you reported bugs, they may take a year to 18 months to get resolved, if they get fixed at all.


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## ALittleNightMusic (May 1, 2022)

Virtuoso said:


> The turning point for me was Hans Zimmer Piano, which was described in the Spitfire Marketing blurb thusly:-
> 
> 
> Two hours of playing after I’d shelled out hundreds of dollars, I just couldn’t believe the wide gulf between the claims and the sloppy, careless reality. The piano was so horribly flawed I just felt I’d been conned. That was the point where the emperor no longer had clothes and I started to spot sloppy, amateurish bugs and errors in many of their products that had no business making it through to release. For the prices they charge, I think customers have a right to expect more.
> ...


Ah shit…got tagged so have to respond I guess.

Yes, they should be more like Performance Samples right? List a few bugs upfront and then never fix anything. Or better yet, like Orchestral Tools who leave their libraries in an actual broken state. You’re acting like Spitfire libraries are unusable - they’re of course not remotely close to that. They have some bugs, like all libraries, but Spitfire has been supporting them, for years - which was my main point. They don’t abandon them.

I’ve seen a number of folks here state their love for HZP so I guess they are too dumb to see they’ve been conned?


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## Virtuoso (May 1, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I’ve seen a number of folks here state their love for HZP so I guess they are too dumb to see they’ve been conned?


Maybe they just wanted a range of pre-programmed glissandi in 28 mics?! If so they’d have been more than satisfied. 

But if they were expecting “the Bugatti Veyron of virtual instruments, the Concorde of sampleware”, they might, like me, have been disappointed to find a low dynamic range with very obvious velocity switch points and dreadful bar-room 'tack piano' sound/feel at low velocities, phasing/chorusing on chords, weak bass response for a concert grand, odd and unnatural 'pedal down' behaviour, digital clipping on some notes, the stereo image jumping around with different velocities on the same note etc etc…

I wasn’t trying to draw you out - I actually wrote ’someone made the point…’ in my original post and then went back and edited it to add the proper tag as it felt lazy and disrepectful not to quote you properly. My point is simply that I wish Spitfire’s… let’s be kind and call it ‘enthusiasm’… was closer to the reality of their releases. That HZP example was just pure hubris.


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## ALittleNightMusic (May 1, 2022)

Virtuoso said:


> Maybe they just wanted a range of pre-programmed glissandi in 28 mics?! If so they’d have been more than satisfied.
> 
> But if they were expecting “the Bugatti Veyron of virtual instruments, the Concorde of sampleware”, they might, like me, have been disappointed to find a low dynamic range with very obvious velocity switch points and dreadful bar-room 'tack piano' sound/feel at low velocities, phasing/chorusing on chords, weak bass response for a concert grand, odd and unnatural 'pedal down' behaviour, digital clipping on some notes, the stereo image jumping around with different velocities on the same note etc etc…
> 
> I wasn’t trying to draw you out - I actually wrote ’someone made the point…’ in my original post and then went back and edited it to add the proper tag as it felt lazy and disrepectful not to quote you properly. My point is simply that I wish Spitfire’s… let’s be kind and call it ‘enthusiasm’… was closer to the reality of their releases. That HZP example was just pure hubris.


FWIW, calling something “the Bugatti Veyron of virtual instruments, the Concorde of sampleware” seems very silly because it doesn’t mean anything. Seems Spitfire realized that and removed it from the HZP page. Maybe they have somebody new in charge of marketing these days since they don’t seem to go so over the top anymore. I don’t recall the last time they called something a “game changer”.


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## Virtuoso (May 1, 2022)

They just like to claim their stuff is the best of the best of the best. Back in March their event was called ‘Apex’ so I’m not sure that they’ve learned that this style of marketing can get quite irritating if it means overpromising and underdelivering.

In the words of George W Bush, "There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."


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## LamaRose (May 1, 2022)

The only marketing mantra that I'm interested in hearing from any MAJOR developer is: "All libraries Now Available to Resale!"

I find the "unspoken" sales concept that _our library/product is so good, we don't need to offer refunds/guarantees/resales/test drives, etc _to be _la la landish. _This industry, on the whole, is living in a safe space in need of a few rattlesnakes thrown in to shake things up. 

Hell, even a return voucher/credit would be welcomed and beneficial to all. This won't last much longer.


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## CT (May 1, 2022)

I now hate Spitfire marketing intensely because of the realization that these conversations and stupid weirdo tribal forum spats only come about as a result of that marketing. 

Please. Spitfire. Enough. Only you can heal VI-Control.


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## Polkasound (May 1, 2022)

A manufacturer can legally market their product as being the greatest in so many ways -- they can say it looks the best, tastes the best, or sounds the best, and they can use adjectives like game-changing, revolutionary, or stunning. It's important that we consumers recognize this as just standard marketing fluff. It's OK to be lured by it as long as we know better than to get suckered by it.


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## MarcMahler89 (May 1, 2022)

Lets be honest here please, there are other companies out there who follow the same major marketing strategies and hyperboles ( 8dio, EW, ... others like cinesamples now in the same boat) - but they dont even remotely receive the same amount of hate. To be clear, i dont use *any* Spitfire Library personally, because i find them rather unexpressive and bland, though that doesnt have to be a bad thing if one is looking for a solid orchestral core. I dont know if its just the result of my personal journey through life, but i dont give a damn about advertising in general - im just interested in what the particular product offers me for my personal creative process.

Sure, every time Spitfire publishes a YouTube video-premiere anouncement 4 weeks in advance for their 10000st Flautando String Ensemble Patch library, which is gonna be super revolutionary, because its been recorded at Abbey Road and thus even more legendary and has to be buyed asap in the intro sale, before its even more overpriced than it should be , you may get a little excited. But if you just refuse to respond to advertising of any kind, by any company, you might make your life a little bit easier.


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## Casiquire (May 1, 2022)

MarcMahler89 said:


> Lets be honest here please, there are other companies out there who follow the same major marketing strategies and hyperboles ( 8dio, EW, ... others like cinesamples now in the same boat) - but they dont even remotely receive the same amount of hate. To be clear, i dont use *any* Spitfire Library personally, because i find them rather unexpressive and bland, though that doesnt have to be a bad thing if one is looking for a solid orchestral core. I dont know if its just the result of my personal journey through life, but i dont give a damn about advertising in general - im just interested in what the particular product offers me for my personal creative process.
> 
> Sure, every time Spitfire publishes a YouTube video-premiere anouncement 4 weeks in advance for their 10000st Flautando String Ensemble Patch library, which is gonna be super revolutionary, because its been recorded at Abbey Road and thus even more legendary and has to be buyed asap in the intro sale, before its even more overpriced than it should be , you may get a little excited. But if you just refuse to respond to advertising of any kind, by any company, you might make your life a little bit easier.


On the flipside though, i don't get hate for criticizing those other devs. There have been times here where even level headed and mild Spitfire critique resulted in a pile-on. Again, I'm talking a few years back


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 1, 2022)

Virtuoso said:


> They just like to claim their stuff is the best of the best of the best.


I have no problem with that, I like Spitfire. But if the are so confident, then at least back up the claims with a demo or return policy. I’m sure they would in turn sell more libraries.


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## mybadmemory (May 1, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> I have no problem with that, I like Spitfire. But if the are so confident, then at least back up the claims with a demo or return policy. I’m sure they would in turn sell more libraries.


I’m not so sure of that. If returns had been generally allowed (not just with spitfire but with everyone) I would have personally returned about 90% of what I’ve bought, keeping only very few libraries (mostly those from spitfire).


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## M0rdechai (May 1, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> On the flipside though, i don't get hate for criticizing those other devs. There have been times here where even level headed and mild Spitfire critique resulted in a pile-on. Again, I'm talking a few years back


as a mostly bistander here on this forum, I believe thats the nail on the head there..

I never see the amount of 'counter-critique' offered to critisism of any other brand than Spitfire and that could very well be having an impact on some peoples perspective of Spitfire. (I do see some ofcourse but not to the extend... etc..)


For me personally; I don't *hate *Spitfires marketing any more than I *hate* (badly chosen word) marketing in general.
I don't watch any of Spitfires anouncements an releases anymore since NEO and BBCSO. Neo in particular; don't tell me the 'age of the orchestra is over and the next decade is all about scandi stuff, and if you buy this you will be ready for the next decade'.
Expecially if you then continue to release more orchestral libraries...
BBCSO was just to much prerelease content to get through. and even more after release.. aint got no time for that.


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## Reznov981 (May 2, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> The interesting thing about this conversation is that nobody's talking about the same things. The OP only joined a year ago and so missed the worst of the Spitfire hype madness in here, and i think a lot of other commenters are new here as well. Half the people in this thread hear "marketing" and think "those helpful videos from Paul or Homay?" And then people like me will say "no that's not what anyone is complaining about, we're talking about this." But then the next comment will go right back to "I love their informative videos!"
> 
> Spitfire used to be maddening with their marketing, and there used to be a very aggressively defensive group of fans. In the last few years, both of those things have come down to a reasonable level. That's why there's so much disconnect.


This has started to become evident to me as I read between the lines of things a little, and I appreciate you making that out plainly. Cheers!


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## Reznov981 (May 2, 2022)

ism said:


> You're spot on about the missing context and the all talking at cross purposes that's arising from it on this thread.
> 
> But I'd also like to suggest that perhaps you're also miss a really key piece of context here. And this speaks to what I'm trying to tease out of this thread (gently, I hope) - which is that "defensiveness" really isn't invoked *because* some of us here are actually the greasy slavering marketing-brainwashed drones forever being implied, but that it arises instead from precisely the ad-hominem in this accusation.
> 
> ...


Hey there, thanks for taking presumably quite a bit of time to really lay out your thoughts! You clearly want what’s best for the community, as do I, though I fear this post got a bit more traction than I anticipated, and not in a good way.
I wish I could kind of leave this thread at a comment like this, because the original post (by me) was honestly just trying to get to the bottom of what seemed some (needless?) aggression. I’ve sort of accomplished that, but also a lot more on the side, which I lament a little.

I’m a little saddened about where things have gotten to, so genuine question, should I delete this thread? Part of me wants to keep it here as a… reminder(?) or signpost of an issue that seems to have existed for a while, with hopes that we can all be a little more respectful going forward. Another part of me sees how there’s something of a cesspool of toxicity that’s started to evolve in it, and I’m not sure I want to perpetuate that space.

To emphasise the point: I really just wanted to understand an issue I saw on this forum. I should have worded it better, and I’m sorry to everyone for how this has turned out.


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## timbit2006 (May 2, 2022)

Maybe the real question we should be asking ourselves is: "Why does Spitfire marketing hate me*?"

*_and my walle_t


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## Casiquire (May 2, 2022)

Reznov981 said:


> This has started to become evident to me as I read between the lines of things a little, and I appreciate you making that out plainly. Cheers!


You asked, and i thought i might have an answer 😁

Before i get noted permanently as Spitfire Hater Extraordinaire, things aren't nearly what they used to be anymore, and my issue was always limited to the style of marketing, not the company or their products. My experience with their products is limited to the Union Chapel Organ, and I think it's absolutely...well i wish calling it "heavenly" didn't feel so lazy, but that's how it feels sometimes playing it!


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## ism (May 2, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> Before i get noted permanently as Spitfire Hater Extraordinaire


Not at all! 

And even if you did in fact hate every single SF libraries ever released, that would be a totally valid lifestyle choice, which (I hope!) even the most flautando-positive among us would respect.

I mean, I'm glad not everyone it the world loves flautando as much as I do. What kind of a world would that be?


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## Fab (May 2, 2022)

This is a click bait thread, and I clicked...oh dear


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## Evans (May 2, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> Before i get noted permanently as Spitfire Hater Extraordinaire


You may want to change your forum Custom Title.


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## SandChannel (May 2, 2022)

sean8877 said:


> I would actually prefer that for marketing of all products. Just state the facts and skip all the manufactured hype/mind games. I understand that businesses feel like the need for marketing to stand out from the crowd but it really just feels like emotional manipulation to me and is a complete turn off to their product. Obviously I'm not a marketing/business person so I'm sure there are those that feel differently about it but that's just my 2c as a consumer.


I am not trying to be difficult but that is not how marketing works. The point is to draw consumers to your product so that they consider a purchase. That is why there are Flos, emus, and geckos selling insurance. Otherwise the commercials would be: "We sell insurance." "So do we." "Us too." Maybe you prefer a world without color.


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## holywilly (May 2, 2022)

Whatever they do, they need to offer free patches or versions for people to try the libraries, or a 14 days return policy since the Spitfire has its own licensing protection for Spitfire Player libraries.


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 2, 2022)

mybadmemory said:


> I’m not so sure of that. If returns had been generally allowed (not just with spitfire but with everyone) I would have personally returned about 90% of what I’ve bought, keeping only very few libraries (mostly those from spitfire).


What didn’t you like?


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## sean8877 (May 2, 2022)

SandChannel said:


> I am not trying to be difficult but that is not how marketing works. The point is to draw consumers to your product so that they consider a purchase. That is why there are Flos, emus, and geckos selling insurance. Otherwise the commercials would be: "We sell insurance." "So do we." "Us too." Maybe you prefer a world without color.


I'm not suggesting a world without "color", just a world without emotional manipulation. Your "we sell insurance" statement isn't what I was suggesting, give me the facts about your products and let me make up my mind whether I want to buy them. I don't need a clown show to try to get my attention but that seems to be the baseline these days.


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## timbit2006 (May 2, 2022)

Fab said:


> This is a click bait thread, and I clicked...oh dear


What's more annoying, clickbait or overly vague Spitfire marketing?


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## boinzy (May 2, 2022)

ism said:


> Yes, you should name names. These are serious accusations, and you should back be willing to back them up.


No, no. No accusations. As I said, it just has me wondering is all. And to be clear, it's not just in Spitfire threads. I've spent my career in marketing and and greyhat forum marketing is a thing since it's cheap and easy, a low barrier to entry. Although not sure how popular it is anymore. 

Is it happening here? I don't know. I think there is a non-zero chance that it is. If I had any proof, I'd name names. I'd bring it to the forum owners too. 

But if they're not sock puppets, can you imagine? These people don't deserve to be outed and shamed here. You're calling for names, but they don't deserve to be piled on and abused. 

I mean, imagine it. Your life, day after day, being a corporate groupie, groveling over the latest sample library releases. Fawning over the executives, post after post, while they never think about you at all. Imagine what brought them to a life like this?

No, they deserve our gentle pity. We need to be compassionate towards them as they're fighting battles we know nothing about. It's just sad really. 

Or maybe they're just forum spam bots?! Who knows!? Maybe we shouldn't overthink it.


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## ism (May 2, 2022)

boinzy said:


> No, no. No accusations. As I said, it just has me wondering is all. And to be clear, it's not just in Spitfire threads. I've spent my career in marketing and and greyhat forum marketing is a thing since it's cheap and easy, a low barrier to entry. Although not sure how popular it is anymore.
> 
> Is it happening here? I don't know. I think there is a non-zero chance that it is. If I had any proof, I'd name names. I'd bring it to the forum owners too.
> 
> ...


That’s pretty toxic.


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## SandChannel (May 2, 2022)

sean8877 said:


> I'm not suggesting a world without "color", just a world without emotional manipulation. Your "we sell insurance" statement isn't what I was suggesting, give me the facts about your products and let me make up my mind whether I want to buy them. I don't need a clown show to try to get my attention but that seems to be the baseline these days.


The clown is the marketing. You want a spec sheet. Those are readily available and companies do not spend small fortunes on spec sheets. Again, your complaint is not what marketing is all about, because if all you want are the specs, they are all right there.


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## Trash Panda (May 2, 2022)

Reznov981 said:


> I wish I could kind of leave this thread at a comment like this, because the original post (by me) was honestly just trying to get to the bottom of what seemed some (needless?) aggression. I’ve sort of accomplished that, but also a lot more on the side, which I lament a little.
> 
> I’m a little saddened about where things have gotten to, so genuine question, should I delete this thread? Part of me wants to keep it here as a… reminder(?) or signpost of an issue that seems to have existed for a while, with hopes that we can all be a little more respectful going forward. Another part of me sees how there’s something of a cesspool of toxicity that’s started to evolve in it, and I’m not sure I want to perpetuate that space.


For what it's worth, I've updated my post to be more specific and less "toxic." 



Trash Panda said:


> Here is what I hate about Spitfire's marketing (which is admittedly much toned down these days) specifically on VI-C. I can easily tune out their social media and YouTube marketing when desired.
> 
> Spitfire Commercial thread: We're announcing a new product, but we won't tell you what it is!
> Me: Clicks ignore thread
> ...


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## SandChannel (May 2, 2022)

^ Yet here you are. In spite of ignoring all the threads.


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## Evans (May 2, 2022)

This thread should have had a poll. We like polls.


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## sean8877 (May 2, 2022)

SandChannel said:


> The clown is the marketing. You want a spec sheet. Those are readily available and companies do not spend small fortunes on spec sheets. Again, your complaint is not what marketing is all about, because if all you want are the specs, they are all right there.


At least you're admitting that marketing is a clown show. I don't really care that much, it just gets tiresome all of the faux-hype and marketing shenanigans so just kind of venting because it feels like we're constantly bombarded with it as consumers. Not my thing but if it's yours then enjoy.


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## SandChannel (May 2, 2022)

sean8877 said:


> At least you're admitting that marketing is a clown show. I don't really care that much, it just gets tiresome all of the faux-hype and marketing shenanigans so just kind of venting because it feels like we're constantly bombarded with it. Not my thing but if it's yours then enjoy.


It doesn't matter if it is a clown, a super model, a lizard, or a wavy arm inflatable tube man. Marketing has always more than just a spec sheet. Maybe watch Mad Men. Great show, mind you.


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## Vik (May 2, 2022)

"Why Do You Hate Spitfire Audio's Marketing?" 
I know that SF sometimes have gone quite far when it comes to marketing (like eg. announcing that they soon will announce something), but in general I like a lot of what they're doing. Generally, I also dislike thread titles that may give noobs/occasional visitors a negative impression of a company.


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## pinki (May 2, 2022)

Finally, everyone is waking up...
What a gift: for every product in the world the customer has a right of redress..but not this one, oh no. Hilarious. A license to print money really.


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## tmhuud (May 2, 2022)

boinzy said:


> No, no. No accusations. As I said, it just has me wondering is all. And to be clear, it's not just in Spitfire threads. I've spent my career in marketing and and greyhat forum marketing is a thing since it's cheap and easy, a low barrier to entry. Although not sure how popular it is anymore.
> 
> Is it happening here? I don't know. I think there is a non-zero chance that it is. If I had any proof, I'd name names. I'd bring it to the forum owners too.
> 
> ...


What the hell are you saying? Lol…


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## Trash Panda (May 2, 2022)

SandChannel said:


> ^ Yet here you are. In spite of ignoring all the threads.


Not sure what you're getting at. I'm on VI-C in spite of Spitfire's marketing, not for it. There is more to VI-C than one single developer and the chatter around them.


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## boinzy (May 2, 2022)

tmhuud said:


> What the hell are you saying? Lol…


I'm saying I like Spitfire, their products, and their marketing. However, if they were using forum sock puppets here, I would be very disappointed.


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## SandChannel (May 2, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> Not sure what you're getting at. I'm on VI-C in spite of Spitfire's marketing, not for it. There is more to VI-C than one single developer and the chatter around them.


Just ignore this thread and you won't have to discuss Spitfire because you seem to be pretty put off by them. A lot of people are here, because Spitfire introduced them to sample libraries. It is strange that people are hostile towards someone else being excited about something. If I hate football, I don't step into a football thread to tell everyone that.


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## Trash Panda (May 2, 2022)

SandChannel said:


> Just ignore this thread and you won't have to discuss Spitfire because you seem to be pretty put off by them. A lot of people are here, because Spitfire introduced them to sample libraries. It is strange that people are hostile towards someone else being excited about something. If I hate football, I don't step into a football thread to tell everyone that.


I am in this thread because the OP asked what people don't like about Spitfire's marketing. I answered the question and then toned down my response. This isn't a Spitfire product announcement thread, so you are making zero sense. In fact, my post illustrated that trying to ignore Spitfire marketing threads on VI-C is like playing a game of whack-a-mole.


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## SandChannel (May 2, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> I am in this thread because the OP asked what people don't like about Spitfire's marketing. I answered the question and then toned down my response. This isn't a Spitfire product announcement thread, so you are making zero sense. In fact, my post illustrated that trying to ignore Spitfire marketing threads on VI-C is like playing a game of whack-a-mole.


I haven't been here that long, but you are in every Spitfire thread that pops up waving the same old flag.


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## Trash Panda (May 2, 2022)

SandChannel said:


> I haven't been here that long, but you are in every Spitfire thread that pops up waving the same old flag.


Yes, when the ignore thread finger gets tired, annoyance takes over. You are similarly free to keep scrolling past my responses when that happens as I am to hit the ignore thread button.


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## Instrugramm (May 2, 2022)

Every company has its ups and downs, particular downs for Spitfire, at least in my book, include the Daniel James affaire a few years back as well as marketing that aims to include every customer even if the product isn't really destined for said job (HZS are for example not ideal for achieving bombastic sounds and EDNA Earth; or Polaris as far as I can tell; isn't always that great for scoring to picture).

That doesn't however change the fact that the mentioned libraries are of a good quality and able to be used in various contexts. I think that Spitfire deserve to be among the top players in the business and that they do produce some very innovative products. Their marketing often overshoots a bit but every other time I feel that praises are actually deserved.

Ps. I do think that Paul and Christian are genuine composers who love their job.


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## Polkasound (May 2, 2022)

sean8877 said:


> I don't need a clown show to try to get my attention but that seems to be the baseline these days.


Unfortunately it is, and it's been that way for decades.

Small businesses typically start out with one person's drive to solve a problem. That person wants to provide something that people can benefit from, create jobs, and be a positive participant their community.

But then they see potential for the growth of their business. They think about how nice it would be to be able to put their kids through college, drive nice cars, and take vacations, so they bring investors on board to take the company forward. _Everything_ changes. Manufacturing is transferred to China, components are built out of cheaper plastic, the retail price is doubled, customer service is routed through India... yet the product is still marketed as the best in the world.

The business' #1 priority shifts entirely to maximizing profit with the help of clever marketing, and that clever marketing is usually rife with fluff. For example, a recent trend in fluff is sentimentally-laced BS... "We are here for you." "You matter to us." "We're listening." blah blah blah. It's all BS designed for _one_ purpose... to take your money. That's just the cold, hard reality of big business advertising -- to say the right words to get you to open your wallet.

To take an educated guess as to where a company's priorities are, look at their proportion of advertising fluff to quality control. If a can of Uncle Skip's Condensed Soup says _"The tastiest soup you'll ever try!"_ and it tastes oversalted and watered down, it's pretty clear where their priorities are. But if the soup really does taste good, then maybe they are really trying, and they're standing behind their marketing.




Michaelt said:


> Come on, if you're gonna go there, name names!





ism said:


> Yes, you should name names.


THIS is exactly what this forum doesn't need.

Boinzy, like every other member here, has the right to express his opinion. His opinion is that the fanaticism of some posting behavior seems carried so far, it doesn't even look legitimate. He's not stating under oath the posting is illegitimate, but only that it looks that way, and he's asking... is it a possibility?

Accusing and dragging potentially innocent fans of Spitfire though the mud would be the worst thing for this forum. If you disagree with Boinzy's opinion that some posting behavior could be sock-puppeted, then just say so.

In my personal opinion, I don't think there's anything suspicious going on. I believe the apparent Spitfire fanaticism on VI-Control is legitimate, and it stems from one main factor that applies to most Spitfire users, and a second small factor that applies to a few:

1. Spitfire creates some of the best-sounding and most unique products for the specific needs of VI-Controllers. Many people here genuinely like their libraries, so it's only natural that Spitfire, being arguably the most prominent company creating libraries that most VI-Controllers desire, is going to generate the lion's share of discussion. It''s no different than why Serum might generate the most discussion on an EDM composers forum.​​2. Anyone can own orchestral libraries, but for some people, they may feel like they're not fully accepted by the upper echelon of the VI composing community until they're using and discussing Spitfire products. For them, signalling ownership and knowledge of those products via forum discussion gives them a feeling of worthiness. Once they're immersed in the Spitfire ecosystem, however, there's nowhere higher to go. They've made it into the club. All they can do now is maintain their club membership by buying and "endorsing" the next Spitfire library.​
No, I'm not going to name names. I'm just offering my personal opinion based on what I've casually observed over the years.


----------



## Reznov981 (May 2, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> For what it's worth, I've updated my post to be more specific and less "toxic."


In my books that’s worth a lot. Sincere thanks.
I bet you compose hella good music too 
I’ve also just changed the thread name, which I should have done ages ago. I wanted it to grab attention but then clarify in the post exactly what I meant. That was my mistake, and it also seems like some people didn’t end up reading the post itself, only the title. We’re all learning!


----------



## ism (May 2, 2022)

Polkasound said:


> THIS is exactly what this forum doesn't need.
> 
> Boinzy, like every other member here, has the right to express his opinion. His opinion is that the fanaticism of some posting behavior seems carried so far, it doesn't even look legitimate. He's not saying the posting is suspicious, but only that it looks that way, and he's asking... is it a possibility?
> 
> Accusing and dragging potentially innocent fans of Spitfire though the mud would be the worst thing for this forum. If you disagree with Boinzy's opinion that some posting behavior could be sock-puppeted, then just say so.



Well, if this is your honest opinion, then you're certain entitled to it. But ... do you not think that maybe you there might not be something else going on in the dynamics at play here? 

Because ... 



Polkasound said:


> 2. Anyone can own orchestral libraries, but for some people, they may feel like they're not fully accepted by the upper echelon of the VI composing community until they're using and discussing Spitfire products. For them, signalling ownership and knowledge of those products via forum discussion gives them a feeling of worthiness. Once they're immersed in the Spitfire ecosystem, however, there's nowhere higher to go. They've made it into the club. All they can do now is maintain their club membership by buying and "endorsing" the next Spitfire library.



I mean, really?


----------



## timprebble (May 2, 2022)

Duty Calls







xkcd.com


----------



## Polkasound (May 2, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> Ooooooook, yes, got it, it's just fine to imply that "some people" are being duplicitous in some way, but it's "not what the forum needs" to expect those implications to be backed up (knowing full well that they won't/can't be). Understood.


Yes. There's a HUGE difference between making a general statement about observed posting behavior, and publicly targeting and accusing specific people of something of which they may or may not be guilty. This is not a court of law, and you're not Spitfire's defense attorney. This forum is simply a two-way conduit for sharing opinions.

You're welcome to ask Boinzy to spend all day digging through old forums to dredge up and post examples, but even if he did that, what would be your goal? To disagree? To change his mind? To pit forum members against each other?



ism said:


> I mean, really?


Yep, really. It's a theory based in psychology, but it is my honest opinion. You don't have to like it.


----------



## Double Helix (May 2, 2022)

Polkasound said:


> 2. Anyone can own orchestral libraries, but for some people, they may feel like they're not fully accepted by the upper echelon of the VI composing community until they're using and discussing Spitfire products. For them, signalling ownership and knowledge of those products via forum discussion gives them a feeling of worthiness. Once they're immersed in the Spitfire ecosystem, however, there's nowhere higher to go. They've made it into the club. All they can do now is maintain their club membership by buying and "endorsing" the next Spitfire library.


There is value in this.
As much as humans pretend to be immune, most (all?) of us are affected by peer pressure to a lesser or greater extent. An anecdote follows:

I bought CDT before I was aware that VI-Control (or a VI composing community, as it were) even existed. I happened upon this Web site due to an Internet search for installation help. The cyber-pals I have made have--without exception--offered valuable insight & advice. Therefore, perhaps (consciously or unconsciously) I, too, strove to be "in the club"; I am not exempt from a desire to be included.

John Donne wrote that "No man is an island entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. . ."

Donne's gender specificity notwithstanding, @Polkasound has channeled one of life's undeniable truisms.


----------



## kgdrum (May 2, 2022)

Well it’s interesting as well as strange how everyone reacts differently to various developers marketing approaches,customers as well as other developers.
Several years ago Simon Stockhausen posted here @VI-C. Simon as anyone knows & has followed him over the years is extremely enthusiastic and prolific in posting audio demos of what he’s devloping and marketing.
Other developers here started complaining that they thought Simon was intentionally bumping his own threads by posting numerous demo clips (which is actually his style,he likes creating real examples of the libraries,even on his own site). So unfortunately Simon felt pressured walked away from VI-C not because of members but other developers.

Unfortunately most marketing strategies can irritate & turn off someone. Do I always like the 30 page threads about a new Spitfire products? Usually not but if the new release intrigues me I will follow the thread,if not I just move on and ignore the thread.
Regardless of the strategic approach a developer utilizes Spitfires strategy seems to be working well for them.


----------



## ism (May 2, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> the last few days have been fairly ugly for this place.


This is a particularly vicious thread, isn't it?


----------



## Trash Panda (May 2, 2022)

I envy the levity of your internet experience if this thread qualifies as vicious and ugly.


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## Casiquire (May 2, 2022)

Jonathan Moray said:


> I honestly think it's doing very well for Spitfire because otherwise, they would have changed it.


Well, they HAVE changed it 😉


----------



## Evans (May 2, 2022)

Somehow, this thread makes me want to buy the next Spitfire release.


----------



## Evans (May 2, 2022)

Wait, is _this_ marketing?


----------



## Jdiggity1 (May 2, 2022)

Evans said:


> Wait, is _this_ marketing?


----------



## CT (May 2, 2022)

This is at the very least free market research for any developers reading.


----------



## ism (May 2, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> I envy the levity of your internet experience if this thread qualifies as vicious and ugly.



Your right - except that I didn't say this thread was ugly. I mean the thread is literally conceived as a safe space to express hatred, and for the most part everyone is respecting that, so the nice thing is that it's managed to stay pretty civil.

But I also think that should the invective and ad hominem that's being casually flung about here find it's way out of its safe space and onto a regular thread ... well then this civility might be strained.

So I guess my hope is that that might be avoided. 

Perhaps naive.


----------



## method1 (May 2, 2022)

Something is coming... 

Spitfire Ad Hom, recorded at the edge of civility.


----------



## Reznov981 (May 2, 2022)

ism said:


> This is a particularly vicious thread, isn't it?


I have reached out to have it deleted, but am unable. My creation has turned against me! Sorry 😣


----------



## sean8877 (May 2, 2022)

I'm going to start another thread about how much I hate the marketing for "N". Those guys are the worst...


----------



## Polkasound (May 2, 2022)

sean8877 said:


> I'm going to start another thread about how much I hate the marketing for "N". Those guys are the worst...


Don't get me started. I can say with absolutely certainty, under he penalty of perjury, that the developers of N are not even human. They're cyborgs. I have proof.


----------



## boinzy (May 2, 2022)

Reznov981 said:


> I have reached out to have it deleted, but am unable. My creation has turned against me! Sorry 😣


Hey OP. No worries.

All the pearl clutching aside, this thread has been informative. Polkasound makes some great points. Perhaps it's rooted in their insecurities and they're just seeking out a bit of worthiness. Going big here in the forums and signaling to the others about what team they're on. Identifying strongly with their team in an effort to fight off alienation, loneliness, and increase self-esteem and positive emotion. It fulfills their need to belong. 

Which is why I denounced their efforts at a witch hunt. Absolutely the wrong way to go about this.

I think it can be jarring to see someone attacked for not liking someone else's favorite sample library producer, but they're not just defending Spitfire, they're defending the vision they've created for themselves.

If some of these folks are building up their identity and self worth as Spitfire enthusiasts, we shouldn't be tearing that down. They just want to see themselves as making good choices and being smart and proud of who they are.

And really, isn't that what we all want? A place to belong?

This thread has changed my mind, I think. Where before I wondered if there were some less than ethical marketing tactics happening, I now see humanity reaching out for connection. 

And for that OP, I thank you.


----------



## ism (May 3, 2022)

Reznov981 said:


> I have reached out to have it deleted, but am unable. My creation has turned against me! Sorry 😣


No worries, innocently intended, a perfectly valid topic, and hopefully there are some constructive things that might yet emerge.


----------



## simfoe (May 3, 2022)

Evans said:


> Somehow, this thread makes me want to buy the next Spitfire release.


Someone posted a picture of a cheeseburger on page 4 and now it's all I can think about


----------



## ism (May 3, 2022)

boinzy said:


> Hey OP. No worries.
> 
> All the pearl clutching aside, this thread has been informative. Polkasound makes some great points. Perhaps it's rooted in their insecurities and they're just seeking out a bit of worthiness. Going big here in the forums and signaling to the others about what team they're on. Identifying strongly with their team in an effort to fight off alienation, loneliness, and increase self-esteem and positive emotion. It fulfills their need to belong.
> 
> ...


I see. Well let me just quickly reassure you:

- There is no "witch hunt". No one is coming for you. So lets's all just relax.

- No one - literally no one - is attacking you for your taste in sample libraries. Literally no one. Not on this thread. Not on other threads. Literally no one.

- There is no army of greasy lonely slavering sycophanic pearl-clutching witch-hunting corporate pseudo-lawyer automatons trying to wrestle some meagre self-worth and collective identity out of their pathetic lonely existences by coming after you and your favourite sample libraries. Please be assured of this. I have seen online communities with such vileness, but vi-c is actually a pretty sophisticated place with pretty decent people, at least a lot of the time. So this drone army simply doesn't exist. So there's nothing to fear on this front either.

- In fact, the flautando-positive demographic of this community can actually be quite nice and quite reasonable, and can even be highly willing to learn from differing perspectives like yours - provided don't absolutely pack every single post dense with insults and ad homomem and instead try to engage in meaningful and respectful conversation about music and the sample libraries we all love to make music with. So that's maybe something to try.


Hope that helps. 


Peace, Love, and Sample Libraries,
i


----------



## MartinH. (May 3, 2022)

12 pages already... in 4 days...

This whole pro/against discussion reminds me of this video that beautifully explains the symbiotic relationship that both sides of such an argument often enter:


----------



## chillbot (May 3, 2022)

juliandoe said:


> I don't think that Spitfire's marketing campaign is different from other campaigns I've seen or done.


I can't believe this thread is 12 pages not even counting a bunch of deleted posts and not one mention of fake leaked emails?! Did I miss it somewhere?
Yes Spitfire's "marketing campaign" can be a bit... different.




Land of Missing Parts said:


> We do know one sock muppet account.


Proud of it. Also available to work for cheap! A six-pack of beer should do it.


----------



## Mike Fox (May 3, 2022)

simfoe said:


> Someone posted a picture of a cheeseburger on page 4 and now it's all I can think about


----------



## Fab (May 3, 2022)

timbit2006 said:


> What's more annoying, clickbait or overly vague Spitfire marketing?


clickbait, everytime.


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## SupremeFist (May 3, 2022)

I just got an email from Spitfire with the subject heading "Your new definitive grand piano". It is the Originals Intimate Grand with three dynamic layers. Dudes, this is so not my new definitive grand piano. 🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## CT (May 3, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> I just got an email from Spitfire with the subject heading "Your new definitive grand piano". It is the Originals Intimate Grand with three dynamic layers. Dudes, this is so not my new definitive grand piano. 🤷🏻‍♂️


Whoops sorry, I sent that to you but I forgot you're a more hardcore piano guy. I'll research/shill more appropriately next time! 🕵️‍♂️


----------



## Robert_G (May 3, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> I just got an email from Spitfire with the subject heading "Your new definitive grand piano". *It is the Originals Intimate Grand with three dynamic layers.* Dudes, this is so not my new definitive grand piano. 🤷🏻‍♂️



This is exactly the hyperbole of Spitfire that makes me cringe. 

"Look at us. Look over here.....1996 Ford Escort Station Wagons for Sale"
"Your new definitive Corvette like sportscar"


----------



## Reid Rosefelt (May 3, 2022)




----------



## Trash Panda (May 3, 2022)

Reid Rosefelt said:


>


OMG! It's a picture of Jupiter. Could this be a sequel to Phobos named after Europa???


----------



## Reid Rosefelt (May 3, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> OMG! It's a picture of Jupiter. Could this be a sequel to Phobos named after Europa???


No. But you're warm.


----------



## Crowe (May 3, 2022)

Reid Rosefelt said:


>


I am certain this is a teaser for the announcement of the fact that Tiger will be doing the Black Friday thread this year after all.*





*I take no responsibility for this interpretation.


----------



## Bee_Abney (May 3, 2022)

Crowe said:


> I am certain this is a teaser for the announcement of the fact that Tiger will be doing the Black Friday thread this year after all.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm very sorry, Crowe, but I will personally learn where Reid lives and kidnap him for the several months of Black Friday sales if he so much as hints at taking that on again.

Don't worry, Reid, I'll stash you somewhere very nice. Maybe a very nice hotel somewhere warm.


----------



## Casiquire (May 3, 2022)

timbit2006 said:


> What's more annoying, clickbait or overly vague Spitfire marketing?


Their marketing used to BE clickbait. There would be a new thread about an announcement so I'd open it up with interest just to see like, a wall with a shadow on it or something, and no info whatsoever.

Today? Clickbait is worse than Spitfire marketing, hands down


----------



## Reid Rosefelt (May 3, 2022)

Crowe said:


> I am certain this is a teaser for the announcement of the fact that Tiger will be doing the Black Friday thread this year after all.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm very excited to announce that the answer to that is "NO"


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## Polkasound (May 3, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> Today? Clickbait is worse than Spitfire marketing, hands down


Want to know what's even worse than both of those combined? We know what it is, and it's.... coming up after the break!


----------



## Zanshin (May 3, 2022)

Polkasound said:


> Want to know what's even worse than both of those combined? We know what it is, and it's.... coming up after the break!


You have no shame!


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## CT (May 3, 2022)

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the bits of their marketing that use different fonts to _highlight certain words _and *lots* of 🎧these 🎹 things 👂interspersed

Now _that's_ a bit hateful....


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## Crowe (May 3, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> I'm very sorry, Crowe, but I will personally learn where Reid lives and kidnap him for the several months of Black Friday sales if he so much as hints at taking that on again.
> 
> Don't worry, Reid, I'll stash you somewhere very nice. Maybe a very nice hotel somewhere warm.


That was adorable.

But yeah, I'll help. I've always wanted to kidnap someone at least once, anyway.


----------



## Bee_Abney (May 3, 2022)

Crowe said:


> That was adorable.
> 
> But yeah, I'll help. I've always wanted to kidnap someone at least once, anyway.


Me too!! Because I totally have never kidnapped anyone before.


----------



## Double Helix (May 3, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Me too!! Because I totally have never kidnapped anyone before.


. . . only their hearts ❤️


----------



## Bee_Abney (May 3, 2022)

Double Helix said:


> . . . only their hearts ❤️


Well, I've got to eat!


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## Reznov981 (May 3, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Well, I've got to eat!


It’s put a smile on my face to see this interaction after everything else :’) thanks for your great sense of humour!

Because you’re obviously joking about eating human hearts, right?
…
Right?


----------



## Crowe (May 3, 2022)

Reznov981 said:


> It’s put a smile on my face to see this interaction after everything else :’) thanks for your great sense of humour!
> 
> Because you’re obviously joking about eating human hearts, right?
> …
> Right?


Girl's gotta eat man.


----------



## Mike Fox (May 3, 2022)

Crowe said:


> Girl's gotta eat man.


Eat man? 

Or eat, man?


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## andyhy (May 3, 2022)

The answer from me is definitely NO. I have a lot of respect for SA and have several of their greatest libraries but have decided to use what I already rather than buy new stuff I will rarely use. So in practise I have no need to watch any of the SA new product launch videos.


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## Casiquire (May 3, 2022)

Reznov981 said:


> It’s put a smile on my face to see this interaction after everything else :’) thanks for your great sense of humour!
> 
> Because you’re obviously joking about eating human hearts, right?
> …
> Right?


Bee is often a beautiful breath of fresh air



Reid Rosefelt said:


> I'm very excited to announce that the answer to that is "NO"


You're not doing a BF thread this year?

I think a ton of people found it really useful. I understand not wanting to do all that work and hope someone else takes on the mantle. Thanks for doing such a good job of it too!


----------



## Ian Mackie (May 4, 2022)

Like many here I am weary of, and irritated by the hyperbole in most marketing (including SA), but I also accept to some extent that it's just part of consumer culture and has been for a long time. 

The only thing I find truly off-putting is when Spitfire presents a new product as a "gift" or "donation" to the community, and they have done this on more than one occasion. (see Christian's video "What Is Albion NEO?" at around 0:29 where he claims the library to be "our greatest donation to date.")

I do recognize that Spitfire does contribute to the community, and Christian himself certainly has with Pianobook and other efforts. And Spitfire has their entire free LABS series, which I think is also exemplary behaviour for a developer.

But referring to a product as a gift or a donation that is clearly "for sale" is unnecessary hyperbole, cheesy, and only risks tarnishing their brand. They don't need to be saying this nonsense: they already donate and contribute to the community, and make plenty of good products that are for sale.


----------



## Reid Rosefelt (May 4, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> You're not doing a BF thread this year?
> 
> I think a ton of people found it really useful. I understand not wanting to do all that work and hope someone else takes on the mantle. Thanks for doing such a good job of it too!


Thank you! I really enjoyed doing the first three years, but the last one was not fun. I think it had to do with how many more sales there seemed to be in 2021. I got up at 5 am to do it and I felt like I never stopped. 

And now I am busy with other pursuits. I'm sure somebody will be willing to pick up where I left off.


----------



## robgb (May 4, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Yes, they should be more like Performance Samples right? List a few bugs upfront and then never fix anything. Or better yet, like Orchestral Tools who leave their libraries in an actual broken state. You’re acting like Spitfire libraries are unusable - they’re of course not remotely close to that.


Which begs a larger question. Should ANY library be released that's full of bugs? Someone just mentioned an actual human voice in the Hans Zimmer strings library that has yet to be fixed. How does something like that get past the development team and the beta testers? Maybe developers need to slow down a bit and make sure a library is undeniably ready for primetime before it's released and people pay large amounts of money for it. Money they can't get back because there are no refunds.


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## Casiquire (May 4, 2022)

Reid Rosefelt said:


> Thank you! I really enjoyed doing the first three years, but the last one was not fun. I think it had to do with how many more sales there seemed to be in 2021. I got up at 5 am to do it and I felt like I never stopped.
> 
> And now I am busy with other pursuits. I'm sure somebody will be willing to pick up where I left off.


You're right, the past two years BF has just become bigger and bigger. They were the only two years I took advantage of BF, just because there was so much


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (May 4, 2022)

robgb said:


> Which begs a larger question. Should ANY library be released that's full of bugs? Someone just mentioned an actual human voice in the Hans Zimmer strings library that has yet to be fixed. How does something like that get past the development team and the beta testers? Maybe developers need to slow down a bit and make sure a library is undeniably ready for primetime before it's released and people pay large amounts of money for it. Money they can't get back because there are no refunds.


It’s definitely a nice thought, but the world is not as ideal as we may like. Say you have 50,000 samples for a library, at some point human error creeps in and an “imperfection” slips through. This is not what the developer would like, I imagine. But at some point you have to release to start receiving income and you are under the impression you’ve done what you can from a QA standpoint.

I think the better question is are there any libraries that are truly “full of bugs” or do all have a handful (that are maybe not even commonly hit upon)? I have bought many libraries and have yet to run into one that fits the “full of bugs” description.


----------



## jbuhler (May 4, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> You're right, the past two years BF has just become bigger and bigger. They were the only two years I took advantage of BF, just because there was so much


On the other side because sales are being offered all the time BF itself is less of a big deal. Once upon a time—and that time was not so long ago—BF was the only time of the year where you could find major deals. These days most companies don't even offer their best deals during BF (likely because there is so much competition for attention that it is hard to break through).


----------



## jbuhler (May 4, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> It’s definitely a nice thought, but the world is not as ideal as we may like. Say you have 50,000 samples for a library, at some point human error creeps in and an “imperfection” slips through. This is not what the developer would like, I imagine. But at some point you have to release to start receiving income and you are under the impression you’ve done what you can from a QA standpoint.
> 
> I think the better question is are there any libraries that are truly “full of bugs” or do all have a handful (that are maybe not even commonly hit upon)? I have bought many libraries and have yet to run into one that fits the “full of bugs” description.


Yes, and I've been using HZS for a long time and have never encountered this bug—well it's not even a bug, just an imperfection. It's like all the supposed timing and intonation errors in SCS or SSS. I encounter them rarely, when I do they are seldom bothersome in context, and when they do cause problems there is usually a workaround in the library. And I also like the sound of these samples a lot more than I like the sound of other libraries that are held up as exemplars of careful scripting and high QC. So it's more like: pick your poison. Which set of problems do you prefer to negotiate? (And that's not a question that yields a general answer. Even for the same person it may well yield a different answer depending on the use case.)


----------



## Virtuoso (May 4, 2022)

robgb said:


> How does something like that get past the development team and the beta testers? Maybe developers need to slow down a bit and make sure a library is undeniably ready for primetime before it's released and people pay large amounts of money for it.


This is what I find myself wondering. Some of the bugs are so obvious that it blows my mind that either no-one caught them, or they knew and just went ahead and released the library anyway.

Most of the bugs I've reported are ones that I found within a few minutes of getting the libraries. I'd be excitedly exploring the new instruments and then something weird would stop me in my tracks - "What was _that_?!" Zeroing in, there would be glaringly obvious tuning issues, balance problems etc. You can find them by literally playing a fucking scale - you would think that would be part of the testing methodology?

Here are two such examples:-





I wish more people would post actual examples, so that legitimate issues don't get lazily dismissed by the Spitfire Apologists as 'whining' and potential customers can get an idea of what they're actually buying into.


----------



## davidson (May 4, 2022)

Virtuoso said:


> This is what I find myself wondering. Some of the bugs are so obvious that it blows my mind that either no-one caught them, or they knew and just went ahead and released the library anyway.
> 
> Most of the bugs I've reported are ones that I found within a few minutes of getting the libraries. I'd be excitedly exploring the new instruments and then something weird would stop me in my tracks - "What was _that_?!" Zeroing in, there would be glaringly obvious tuning issues, balance problems etc. You can find them by literally playing a fucking scale - you would think that would be part of the testing methodology?
> 
> ...



Not sure if this is serious or not. Holy shit though if it is


----------



## robgb (May 4, 2022)

Virtuoso said:


> Most of the bugs I've reported are ones that I found within a few minutes of getting the libraries. I'd be excitedly exploring the new instruments and then something weird would stop me in my tracks - "What was _that_?!"


Well, this is part of the reason I wish Spitfire hadn't abandoned Kontakt for their newer instruments. With Kontakt you can at least go behind the wrench and repair some of the bugs yourself.


----------



## Bee_Abney (May 4, 2022)

robgb said:


> Well, this is part of the reason I wish Spitfire hadn't abandoned Kontakt for their newer instruments. With Kontakt you can at least go behind the wrench and repair some of the bugs yourself.


Aren't their Kontakt libraries 'locked' with limited opportunity to tinker? I remember trying to add pitchblende to a Spitfire library that didn't have it. I did what would usually work, but it didn't in that case. The samples are not accessible directly either.

It may just be my limited knowledge of Kontakt, of course.

While I haven't yet taught myself a lot about rejigging Kontakt libraries, I can usually do some things. Spitfire doesn't seem to want or be able to facilitate that. Of course, the reasons for wanting their own player are understandable, if challengeable.


----------



## jbuhler (May 4, 2022)

Virtuoso said:


> This is what I find myself wondering. Some of the bugs are so obvious that it blows my mind that either no-one caught them, or they knew and just went ahead and released the library anyway.
> 
> Most of the bugs I've reported are ones that I found within a few minutes of getting the libraries. I'd be excitedly exploring the new instruments and then something weird would stop me in my tracks - "What was _that_?!" Zeroing in, there would be glaringly obvious tuning issues, balance problems etc. You can find them by literally playing a fucking scale - you would think that would be part of the testing methodology?
> 
> ...



I have no idea where that Albion example came from. Checked it with the new Albion One, the original Albion 1, Tundra, and Neo and none of them exhibits the issue in my quick tests. It is true that Neo was released with out of tune winds (promptly reported), but SF fixed that in an update. So please post details about patch and velocity layer.


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## psy dive (May 4, 2022)

14 pages later...? 🤣🙈


This is giving me life:


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## Virtuoso (May 4, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> I have no idea where that Albion example came from. Checked it with the new Albion One, the original Albion 1, Tundra, and Neo and none of them exhibits the issue in my quick tests. It is true that Neo was released with out of tune winds (promptly reported), but SF fixed that in an update. So please post details about patch and velocity layer.


It's fixed now - they were examples, supporting robgb's comment, of pretty obvious bugs which somehow made it through development, alpha and beta testing and into the released version. I just picked two at random from stuff I had on SoundCloud. Both could have been identified before release by simply playing a scale - it's not rocket science.


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## jbuhler (May 4, 2022)

Virtuoso said:


> It's fixed now - they were examples, supporting robgb's comment, of pretty obvious bugs which somehow made it through development, alpha and beta testing and into the released version. I just picked two at random from stuff I had on SoundCloud. Both could have been identified before release by simply playing a scale - it's not rocket science.


These are big projects with lots of moving parts. Stuff happens. Sometimes you fix one thing and that breaks something else. And really I don’t prefer waiting many moons to ensure that everything is just so. So long as the companies fix glaring errors in a timely fashion I don’t have a problem with them in release versions.


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## BasariStudios (May 4, 2022)

Jdiggity1 said:


>


There is no way i can unsee this!!!


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## Bee_Abney (May 4, 2022)

In my experience, errors at release are often the result of attempts to fix errors before release. No matter how long the process, problems keep creeping in the more you work on something. My experience is more with academic publishing, which is different. Though it does have a similar issue with high prices due to niche interest; but very little money to fund production, plus scanty profits for the people doing the creative work. Many years of royalties, and I could maybe afford a decent lunch!


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## patrick76 (May 4, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> These are big projects with lots of moving parts. Stuff happens. Sometimes you fix one thing and that breaks something else. And really I don’t prefer waiting many moons to ensure that everything is just so. So long as the companies fix glaring errors in a timely fashion I don’t have a problem with them in release versions.


Companies call this “minimum viable product” where the idea is to release something that isn’t perfect, but “good enough.” Defining good enough can be controversial obviously..


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## Bee_Abney (May 4, 2022)

patrick76 said:


> Companies call this “minimum viable product” where the idea is to release something that isn’t perfect, but “good enough.” Defining good enough can be controversial obviously..


Yes. True. But set 'good enough' too high, and most of us couldn't afford the product.

Which is in no way to make excuses for shoddy efforts. It's just all so complicated.


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## Evans (May 4, 2022)

patrick76 said:


> Companies call this “minimum viable product” where the idea is to release something that isn’t perfect, but “good enough.” Defining good enough can be controversial obviously..


A proper MVP isn't filled with mistakes and broken pieces (not saying I feel any of these are). 

An MVP is simply _incomplete_. Today's Cinesamples Industry Brass release is a good example of that. VSL releasing Synchron Woodwinds with a few missing solo woodwinds is another.


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## Trash Panda (May 4, 2022)

patrick76 said:


> Companies call this “minimum viable product” where the idea is to release something that isn’t perfect, but “good enough.”


Also known as the “FUCK IT! SHIP IT!” Juncture.


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## jbuhler (May 4, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Yes. True. But set 'good enough' too high, and most of us couldn't afford the product.


Or you'd have months or longer waiting for the finished product to be available. So there are opportunity costs to the delay as well, beyond the increased cost to pay for financing (if the recording session and labor costs were financed) and of course any additional labor (though the labor cost will presumably only be postponed since work continues after the library is released—though post-release labor can be diverted to work on new functionality, so there are some labor savings to be had as well). 

Releasing a library before it is "finished" in a sense allows the user comments to drive how resources are devoted to completion, while also allowing the possibility of significant change. Audiobro sort of did this with the release of MSS and the number of fixes they made after release, and ISW was also very proactive in making fixes/enhancements to TSS. 

I think there is some merit to the accusation that SF doesn't fix their libraries quickly enough, given that they've evidently opted for releasing MVP and iterative revision. But they do make good on consistent updates compared, say, to OT, which has never been good about fixing and maintaining their libraries, whether for Kontakt or Sine. The QC of OT libraries is maybe a little higher on release but I find SF libraries better after the first year. Yet neither of them consistently produces libraries that I would call unusable, even on initial release. (Yes, initially, there might be dodgy spots, but those are fixed quickly.) And many of the libraries that folks around like to complain about I have few issues with in routine use. I don't know if that's because of the music I write or my idea of what a recorded orchestra sounds like, or what. I don't doubt that the issues others have with these libraries are real; so I'm not saying that because I have few problems with the libraries then you cannot be having the problems you report. 

And, yes, if we are going to go full consumer on this, potential buyers need to hear that many have issues with the libraries. That's absolutely the case. But potential buyers also need to hear that many have few real issues with the libraries. And as far as SF libraries go, I have few of their libraries that I regret purchasing, and none of them, except maybe Kepler, surprised me by its limitations, because I never presume a library is going to do more than what has been shown in a walkthrough. So when it can do more, that's just gravy, but I haven't spent money to find a basic capacity I'd expected was lacking.

A lot of people complain about not being able to demo SF instruments, and I see the argument, except I think if they adopted that model, we'd all pay for it with higher pricing (and fewer sales). So we'd end up owning fewer SF instruments and SF would likely have lower revenues overall so their staff would be smaller, which means releasing fewer libraries, so their libraries might be of marginally higher quality since they'd have fewer to look after. Which isn't necessarily a worse outcome—at this point sorting through my libraries to find the just the right flautando patch or woodwind short or combination of 25 mics can seem overwhelming—but it would mean composing in a different world with a somewhat different set of priorities. And we wouldn't have this exhausting schedule of monthly releases, the effect of which is that even I, dedicated purchaser of SF libraries, mostly just tune out at this point.


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## BasariStudios (May 4, 2022)

SpitFire Marketing is the only reason that i bought just ARO ONE and BBC SO PRO from them...was planning to buy their whole collection but no thanks, i am good.


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## Virtuoso (May 4, 2022)

MVP is a risky strategy if it damages your brand. OT shipped BSS with non-functional mic merge which took what... _18 months_ to fix properly? For a vaunted headline feature of SINE, that's pretty poor. And like Spitfire, they charge premium prices, but don't offer trials, refunds or resales. Is that strategy sustainable when others, like VSL, are making huge strides?


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 4, 2022)

Virtuoso said:


> Is that strategy sustainable when others, like VSL, are making huge strides?


In theory, no. But in reality, I can't see anything changing. People have their favourites no matter what the brand or reputation. I really like VSL as a company, but can't ever see myself going all-in with their libraries (there's just something about them I don't like). It goes back to the saying "stick with the devil you know". I learned my lessons with companies like Spitfire...who I also like. However, I'm going to be more diligent on my next next big purchase; and especially with not falling for the inevitable pre-sale allure.


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## tc9000 (May 21, 2022)

Virtuoso said:


> You can find them by literally playing a fucking scale -


oh god this (and the audio clips) made me sneeze cab sav all over my keyboard. i hope you are pleased with yourself HAHAA


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## Nico5 (May 21, 2022)

Virtuoso said:


> Here are two such examples:


are those maybe sneak previews of their upcoming "Spitfire Portsmouth Sinfonia" library?


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## berto (May 22, 2022)

Jdiggity1 said:


> It's been relatively mild these days, compared to how it once was, though the videos still contain roughly 2.5x more adjectives than is necessary.


that’s why Kvr does not allow adjective like perfect, amazing, incredible, ground breaking, game changer etc… in their product releases news.


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## berto (May 22, 2022)

I don’t know if someone already said it,
.
because this thread is really long

and the very fact this thread is long

is a confirmation their marketing/branding works, whether we like it or not. 

[end of thread? ]


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## liquidlino (May 22, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> It’s definitely a nice thought, but the world is not as ideal as we may like. Say you have 50,000 samples for a library, at some point human error creeps in and an “imperfection” slips through. This is not what the developer would like, I imagine. But at some point you have to release to start receiving income and you are under the impression you’ve done what you can from a QA standpoint.
> 
> I think the better question is are there any libraries that are truly “full of bugs” or do all have a handful (that are maybe not even commonly hit upon)? I have bought many libraries and have yet to run into one that fits the “full of bugs” description.


I'd have thought it'd be straightforward to use machine learning to spot these types of issues (background noises) in samples. Definitely automateable.


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## homie (May 22, 2022)

Sorry to be the party pooper, but a 15 page thread about some companys marketing? Really?

Edit
Why is this thread even located in Sample Talk?


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## Bee_Abney (May 22, 2022)

berto said:


> that’s why Kvr does not allow adjective like perfect, amazing, incredible, ground breaking, game changer etc… in their product releases news.


That's going to make it difficult to talk about my new release over there: UDS (Ultra-Deep Sampled) Kazoo.






So real, it sounds like a sampled saxophone.


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## berto (May 22, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> That's going to make it difficult to talk about my new release over there: UDS (Ultra-Deep Sampled) Kazoo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ground breaking. Game changer. I am so excited about this.

but does it have a big knob in the gui ?


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## Bee_Abney (May 22, 2022)

berto said:


> Ground breaking. Game changer. I am so excited about this.
> 
> but does it have a big knob in the gui ?


The entire GUI is one. Big. KNOB.


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## YahmezTV (May 22, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> …one. Big. KNOB.


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## rottoy (May 22, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> The entire GUI is one. Big. KNOB.


You're probably right, but you don't have to be a *dick* about it.


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## MartinH. (May 22, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> That's going to make it difficult to talk about my new release over there: UDS (Ultra-Deep Sampled) Kazoo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That image makes me wonder what Mick Gordon would do with this. Was this an april fools joke or is it a real product?


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## Bee_Abney (May 22, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> That image makes me wonder what Mick Gordon would do with this. Was this an april fools joke or is it a real product?


The electric kazoo, at least, is real:









Thomann Electric Kazoo Red


Electric Kazoo Can be connected to an effects box, pedal, computer, or directly to an amplifier, Endless sound possibilities, Very durable, water-resistant membrane made of polyethylene (as opposed to conventional cellophane or wax paper),...




www.thomann.de





And I'm guessing that Mick Gordon would morph it with a chainsaw. I mean, who wouldn't?


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## ism (May 22, 2022)

homie said:


> Sorry to be the party pooper, but a 15 page thread about some companys marketing? Really?
> 
> Edit
> Why is this thread even located in Sample Talk?


In fairness, it makes a bit more sense if you read it through the lens of toxic cultural wars.

Or maybe a better analogy is U2. Their music is deeply earnest, effusive, sincere, emotional - and I of understand why it's not everyone's cup of tea.

And of course I know that they earnestness makes them a little bit ... well, "over-intense" is how some people would put it. But this is also what I love about at least their earlier records. But it's precisely the same bleeding earnestness makes also makes them, for a lot of people, deeply uncool. So look at all the virtiol that was directed at them in the most of the music press, at least the British press, at least in their first decade or so.

I mean, we're taking about marketing, not music. So it's not the same thing. But I do think there's a similar polarization of aesthetics at play here.

Which is of course entirely fine. You can love U2 or not, it's either your cup of tea or it isn't. I'm ok, you're ok and all that.


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## ALittleNightMusic (May 22, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> I'd have thought it'd be straightforward to use machine learning to spot these types of issues (background noises) in samples. Definitely automateable.


I’m sure there’s money to be made by selling it to these developers if you can figure it out. As somebody who works with ML everyday, it may be less straightforward than you’re assuming though.


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## Nimrod7 (May 22, 2022)

They probably confuse what they do with marketing that generates hype.

As an example a triple A game company will release:

a. A cinematic teaser, which usually serves as an announcement for an upcoming title. They aim to get media coverage, give people a heads up of what's coming. 

b. They will follow up with a very short gameplay video to get more media coverage, gather feedback from users, start getting metrics of how many people are interested for what they are building. 

c. A more extended gameplay video, usually to kickstart preorders, gather revenue, give probably a release date, generate more hype.

d. Review embargo lift, for people who haven't preordered, final call before release date, get lots of media coverage. 

Spitfire, I don't know what they do, why they do it, what's the reasoning behind those pointless announcements.


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## ism (May 22, 2022)

Nimrod7 said:


> what's the reasoning behind those pointless announcements.



Well, they can be fun. I mean, I personally don't care about video have trailers, video game previews, video games teasers, or indeed video games themselves. 

But I do care about sample libraries. They can be fun and beautiful, even when they're not really made to specifically serve my own particularly, idiosyncratic aesthetic needs.

And there have, historically, been lots of interesting and/or fun threads sparked by trailers and teasers that sometimes create a space for interesting speculation ... provided of course iI'm in the mood for it, and feel I have time for it, and I feel it it teases something that at least feels like it might be something interesting and/or fun to speculate about.

Recently though, these threads are much less fun because of the number of people who show up to such threads explicitly shit on any possibly of there being any joy in it. 

And I mean, go freedom of speech! And all that. 

Yet, I also have to admit some puzzlement to this. I mean, I don't go on video game forums, for instance, and complain about how indifferent I am to video game trailers and how little video game teasers serve my personal aesthetic needs, and how much I don't care about video games and imply that the members of those forums are idiot sheep-like consumers for caring about such thing. I don't even go to Audio Imperia theads to do this. I mean, I know that it's pretty unlikely that the Audio Imperia aesthetic is going to directly server my own needs, but it's still a great company doing really fun things that bring a lot of people here a lot of joy.

I mean, I suppose I could start doing this ... but it, somehow, just doesn't sound like it would be a fun or interesting thing to do. 

But hey, I guess everyone has to have a hobby.


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## mscp (May 22, 2022)

Reznov981 said:


> Hey all, this sort of sounds like a click bait post but it’s an honest question.
> I see a *lot* of posts on different threads about Spitfire’s marketing that carry a bit of an eye roll tone to me. I don’t think the company’s perfect or anything, but in every video I’ve seen by them, they do play the instrument they’re talking about, so no matter what they say you can still hear the sounds and make the decision of if it’s good yourself, right? If Paul Thompson is very excited to show us… isn’t that just what any company would say? Would people prefer “hi guys Paul Thompson here, and I’m feeling a little _apathetic_ about our new strings library, Abbey Road 3: Journey to the Center of the Earth”?
> 
> Love to hear people’s thoughts, but if we can avoid being outright spiteful I would appreciate that ❤️
> ...


I'm indifferent to marketing overall... I bet they've got their reasons to market their products their own way? At the end of the day, it's income. They have to find out a way to attract as many customers as possible within the niche they've set themselves to. If a lot of people get sick and tired of their marketing skills and speak up, I'm sure they will do something about it. Money speaks. Professionalism.

"Gotta support the team!" (David Puddy, Seinfeld)

I like Spitfire's products. I use some from time to time. It helps. Also, Paul is a great guy in person. His composure in his videos are sound too.


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## jbuhler (May 22, 2022)

Nimrod7 said:


> They probably confuse what they do with marketing that generates hype.
> 
> As an example a triple A game company will release:
> 
> ...


Until recently I think the SF advertising strategy has been fairly straightforward: a set of teaser announcements about a library release. These usually have short snippets hinting at use cases for the library without fully specifying what the library is. Then the intro video that presents the basic aesthetic of the library usually through visual analogs to the libraries sounds. This video usually also articulates the problems the library is designed to solve. Then there is the live portion of the release where Christian especially is tasked with gushing about the library (and I think this gushing is both calculated and sincere—it is not a cynical used car hard sell). Finally there are the walkthrough video (usually by Paul) and contextual videos by others that present the library with potential use cases. All of this builds the case to convince us buy something we didn’t even know we needed (Tundra—music on the edge of silence is a great example). But it’s not really creating a desire out of nothing so much as finding something that is swirling around inarticulate until the library appears to give it definition. In that respect Christian is not wrong to call the libraries, or rather the whole apparatus that is mobilized to sell the libraries, as “game changers.”

The recent experiments (for lack of a better term) SF has been trying (including hardly doing any teasing at all) seem by comparison more diffuse. With recent releases I find I often do not have a good sense of what what SF thinks a library is, what grounds it’s aesthetic, how it might inspire music making. Heirlooms and Polaris both come to mind. Heirlooms is a library that might have interested me more with a different ad strategy. I would have almost certainly had little interest in Polaris even with the most fantastic as campaign imaginable. But I can’t say in either case that I have a good sense of what SF imagined them to be. And in neither case did the ad campaign allow desire to condense and crystallize into something I could recognize in order to think about buying. 

That said, there’s quite a lot of evidence that the old roll out strategy is no longer working or it doesn’t work as effectively when your release strategy has to be deployed once a month rather than three or four times a year.


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## mybadmemory (May 22, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> That said, there’s quite a lot of evidence that the old roll out strategy is no longer working or it doesn’t work as effectively when your release strategy has to be deployed once a month rather than three or four times a year.


It’s probably the product strategy that is changing, from big expensive libraries for a few people to smaller more affordable libraries for a lot of people, rather than the marketing strategy. Less risk and a bigger potential audience. And as a result of it, I think the marketing strategy is simply following suit.


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## jbuhler (May 22, 2022)

mybadmemory said:


> It’s probably the product strategy that is changing, from big expensive libraries for a few people to smaller more affordable libraries for a lot of people, rather than the marketing strategy. Less risk and a bigger potential audience. And as a result of it, I think the marketing strategy is simply following suit.


They are still producing big libraries periodically (the modular Abbey Road to come, but also Solstice, maybe Hammers, the upcoming Colossus, and the prices of things like Heirlooms, Polaris, and Appassionata Strings are such that they don't fit neatly into the category of the inexpensive, even if they are also not "premium" libraries.


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## mybadmemory (May 22, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> They are still producing big libraries periodically (the modular Abbey Road to come, but also Solstice, maybe Hammers, the upcoming Colossus, and the prices of things like Heirlooms, Polaris, and Appassionata Strings are such that they don't fit neatly into the category of the inexpensive, even if they are also not "premium" libraries.


Of course. No contradiction here. I just think that a company of spitfires size can’t be sustainable only doing high risk projects for a niche audience. That’s why I think they’re branching out, and experimenting with lesser risk projects, cheaper prices, products broken up into many smaller releases, new genres, etc etc. To reach new groups and grow their audience. And naturally, as a result of that, not each and every product can afford to beat the big marketing drum. They’ll save those announcements for the bigger releases.


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## jbuhler (May 22, 2022)

mybadmemory said:


> Of course. No contradiction here. I just think that a company of spitfires size can’t be sustainable only doing high risk projects for a niche audience. That’s why I think they’re branching out, and experimenting with lesser risk projects, cheaper prices, products broken up into many smaller releases, new genres, etc etc. To reach new groups and grow their audience. And naturally, as a result of that, not each and every product can afford to beat the big marketing drum. They’ll save those announcements for the bigger releases.


I agree with this. I also think there is a difference between running this kind of campaign quarterly and monthly. Obviously film companies manage to run these kinds of campaigns on almost a weekly basis, but they have completely different sets of people to feature in those campaigns, and SF doesn't yet have a large enough cast of characters to segment their campaigns to the same extent. Then, too, as you point out they currently need a lot of low cost products to reach the broader market where most of the growth potential lies.


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