# Mixing Taikos!



## star.keys (Jun 12, 2012)

Hi all,

I am struggling to mix Taiko ensemble in a project... it's a busy mix, with around 40 tracks including all strings sections, choirs, all brass sections, piano, many percussions..... Going crazy how to get this right. If Taiko gets the focus, it eats out some other parts and, else I don't get the 'energy' of Taikos in the mix. Any tricks please? It mainly conflicts with Strings for some off reasons.

Cheers


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## david robinson (Jun 12, 2012)

hi,
they are prolly fighting each other.
you'll have to isolate both from the mix and find which frequency ranges and doing the masking.
the taikos, being fixed in pitch will be easier to 
sculpt out. plus they need tops to give definition to the attack.
also it depends in the strings: if they play an ostinato, then there will be a fixed range for them too.
if not, and they are playing full range, then it will be harder to find the pockets.
whist doing this switch out/in the reverb if possible, as this can add things you might not want.
use as little reverb as possible in any event.
best.
j.


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## RiffWraith (Jun 12, 2012)

What David said, and I will add a bit:

Two things you need: 1) EQ, and 2) Compression. 


1) The thing you may want to do, is tweak the instruments that are competing with the Taikos, before you touch the Taikos. And remember in cases like this, it is better to start subtracting rather than adding. That doesn't mean that you won't/can't add, but your first step(s) should be to try and subtract some freqs that are "getting in the way", as opposed to adding some freqs that may muddy things up even more.

2) Compression is your friend here. Try compressing (slightly) some of the strings that are getting in the way, and the Taikos as well. Try two different compressors, as opposed to sending both strings and Taikos to a sub-bus with a compressor on it. Further, you may want to try some *Parallel compression*. Also, have a look here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fChY0xpuXFg

I know 17 min is alot to sit through for some Parallel compression, but you might learn a few things anyway. He explains how it's set up towards the beginning of the vid, and then you actually see it in use later on. If you need to ask him any Qs, he is on the GS forum.

Cheers.


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## david robinson (Jun 12, 2012)

RiffWraith @ Tue Jun 12 said:


> What David said, and I will add a bit:
> 
> Two things you need: 1) EQ, and 2) Compression.
> 
> ...



+5? lol.
best.
j.


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## mikebarry (Jun 13, 2012)

Keys. Don't fret, taikos can be quite hard to mix because they are emitting so many frequencies so loudly. Looks like good advice being offered here though.


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## star.keys (Jun 13, 2012)

Thanks David, Riff and Mike for your kind response... Sounds like some work to do here, that's going to keep me busy for a day or two


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## KingIdiot (Jun 13, 2012)

percussion almost always benefits from NY Style/Parallel compression

but really jsut make sure you're finding space for things. Sculpt things out, and even work on the arrangement if it needs it. Sometimes not everything can be the focus, and you might have to deal with some things getting buried.

but if you're losing fundamentals in your melody or rhythm notes, sculpting and compression and automation.


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## John Rodd (Jun 13, 2012)

Unless I missed it - to the original poster - is everything samples? (virtual) including the taikos?

this can make a difference to the best approach, in my experience.



John


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## star.keys (Jun 13, 2012)

Hi John, (unfortunately) yes, all are samples!


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## John Rodd (Jun 13, 2012)

Hi star.keys

In no particular order - a few thoughts:

- you are at a bit of a disadvantage - as real instruments recorded in a [good] real room will blend together. It just works this way...... so being all virtual makes it tougher.

- orchestration and composition are key for any mix working.... make sure you aren't making your mix tougher due to some composition or orchestration reason.

- in terms of mixing - i assume you are only working with plugins.... again... often a disadvantage as compared with the best hardware compressors.... the trick with plugin compressors is don't push them very hard. Use your ears to guide you. 8) 

I would suggest cutting frequencies in some instruments that may be masking other instruments....

and also referencing some similar, good sounding productions (even if they are all virtual) to see how you can emulate that mix.

good luck with it! :D 

john


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## Ed (Jun 13, 2012)

How has no one asked what samples are being used? Some are just easier to mix than others.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 13, 2012)

I'd add to all of the above that taikos are just impossible to record in the first place. You just can't put all that on a recording - they're completely awesome instruments when you hear them live. (Actually I did hear one recording that Rob Arbiter had with real taikos in a studio, but that was the only one I've heard with that much impact. And it wasn't samples.)

Without having heard what you're doing, my first reaction is to poke around the high end for a clear frequency to help bring them out. You can do that with bass drums too, and you'd be surprised how high it can be - like 10K sometimes.

That's in addition to parallel compression and of course what John says. The mudrange - 200Hz plus and minus - is particularly dangerous.


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## star.keys (Jun 13, 2012)

Thank you all... The samples that are being used are LASS, HS/HB, 8Dio, Vienna Imperial, VSL WW and stuff like that.


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## synthetic (Jun 14, 2012)

319Hz is the devil's frequency. 

Don't be afraid to "mult" the taikos and mix them differently in different parts of the piece. Also figure out what they're adding to the piece. Cutting the bass frequencies might make sense if they're fighting with Moog bass, cassa, basses, etc.


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## germancomponist (Jun 14, 2012)

And: Side chain can be another cool trick..... .


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Jun 14, 2012)

John Rodd @ Wed Jun 13 said:


> Hi star.keys
> 
> In no particular order - a few thoughts:
> 
> ...



"you are at a bit of a disadvantage - as real instruments recorded in a [good] real room will blend together. It just works this way...... so being all virtual makes it tougher."

Well this is called VI control....eh em..."VIRTUAL Instruments Composers Forum"

"- orchestration and composition are key for any mix working.... make sure you aren't making your mix tougher due to some composition or orchestration reason."

Great suggestion when he is asking about mixing. Basically yours saying, "go back and make sure your writing doesn't suck".

"I would suggest cutting frequencies in some instruments that may be masking other instruments....

and also referencing some similar, good sounding productions (even if they are all virtual) to see how you can emulate that mix."

Million dollars secrets your giving there John, thank you so much for blessing the OP with those amazing ideas that no one has ever heard of. 
This is not a general mix question, it is a specific question pertaining to Taikos. Nope we can't hire 15+ percussionists, rent 15+taikos and a great room. Guess we are out of luck uh John? Better just bag the whole track.


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## RiffWraith (Jun 14, 2012)

Jeffrey Peterson @ Fri Jun 15 said:


> "you are at a bit of a disadvantage - as real instruments recorded in a [good] real room will blend together. It just works this way...... so being all virtual makes it tougher."
> 
> Well this is called VI control....eh em..."VIRTUAL Instruments Composers Forum"
> 
> ...



Jeffrey Peterson:

I'd like to think that you are either drunk off of your ass and have no idea what you are saying, or joking. Neither is the case, I am afraid.

We here at this forum are fortunate enough to have amongst us one of the top scoring mixers on the planet, and his name is John Rodd. And here you are with your condescending tone and arrogant, insolent remarks. Everyone should be treated with respect - but especially those who are kind enough to take their time and share their knowledge. And John has a wealth of it. If you don't know how to show your appreciation for the fact that a top Hollywood scoring mixer is here and doing nothing but trying to help, keep your trap shut. I would hate to see John not pop in here anymore because of comments like yours. And we can all benefit from his experience. So do us all a favor and if you can't keep your trap shut, go somewhere else - and don't ruin this for the rest of us. K?


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Jun 14, 2012)

Are you serious Jeff? So if I called out any other person, you wouldn't care? Look at the OP's post. I'm sick of lazy replies that all repeat the same thing. 

Now if you know Taikos like the OP wants and can give some great EQ'ing/Reverb tips on it. Please share.

You say John is sharing knowledge? Well if any of what John just said missed you the last 10 years I think you need to read in the Mixing and Post forum more. Because what he just said has been repeated probably 4000 times in that forum.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 14, 2012)

I'm only a moderator of a different section, but Jeffrey:

Relax.

Mellow out.

Find your neutral zone.

Smoke a Camberwell Carrot.


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Jun 14, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Jun 14 said:


> I'm only a moderator of a different section, but Jeffrey:
> 
> Relax.
> 
> ...



When was I freaking out? I'm as mellow as a mellow fellow 

I'm just pointing out the John is putting himself above everyone by saying how sad it is that we don't have real players, or $2000 hardware compressors. And calling out his trite advice to..."Use your ears to guide you." So good.
"I would suggest cutting frequencies in some instruments that may be masking other instruments...." Orly?
and also referencing some similar material...ah never heard that before.

Answer the OPs thread. Not waste every ones time with the redundant.


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## KingIdiot (Jun 14, 2012)

also, try limiting your taiko instruments voices. A lot of those long releases, and if they arent in a single cancelling voice group, will build up and just take over the mix.

this is the biggest difference between big sampled percussion and big live percussion.


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## star.keys (Jun 15, 2012)

Hi KingIdiot, that is the problem, I am using Taikos over a wide range, which is causing these releases going all over the frequency range.... EQ didn't help much in this specific case because of this reason. I am not trying some envelope generators to limit their range and see how it goes...

Have a task to complete over the weekend, so will pick this up tomorrow and apply all good suggestions received through the kind responses from you experts!


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 15, 2012)

Jeffrey Peterson @ Thu Jun 14 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Jun 14 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm only a moderator of a different section, but Jeffrey:
> ...



While yes, this is V.I,. Control it IS harder to mix the samples than the real thing in a good room. And many here DO over-orchestrate, making their arrangement too busy for the taikos to have the space to breathe. And EQ in competing frequencies (after thinning out the arrangement) and using compression ARE the best ways to deal with it. 

In fact ALL that John wrote is true, and you do not know how much of it the OP and new comers here have already considered, even if you have. You may want more specific advice but that was not a reason IMHO to jump on John for his contribution.


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## hugomorenomusic (Jun 15, 2012)

Hi Star.Keys! What these guys are offering for advice is spot on! sometimes what I do is that if I can't get the taikos sounding the way they are I would either

A) Blend the taiko samples your using now with another taiko sample to make it stand out thus using all the compression eq-ing you need

or 

B) Bounce out everything except your taikos and then make a new project with the track as audio without taikos and then use taiko MIDI's and then start mixing it out. 

Just thought I would offer some advice


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## david robinson (Jun 15, 2012)

RiffWraith @ Thu Jun 14 said:


> Jeffrey Peterson @ Fri Jun 15 said:
> 
> 
> > "you are at a bit of a disadvantage - as real instruments recorded in a [good] real room will blend together. It just works this way...... so being all virtual makes it tougher."
> ...



this person(JP) is extremely rude.
j.


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## david robinson (Jun 15, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Jun 15 said:


> Jeffrey Peterson @ Thu Jun 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Jun 14 said:
> ...



jay, keep it up, mate, this forum needs honest speakers. your one.

j.


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## david robinson (Jun 15, 2012)

this was a simple question and, yes, has many answers.
and no reference has been forthcoming from the OP..
anyway.
got work to do - writing a piece using taikos and strings. lol.
j.


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## KingIdiot (Jun 15, 2012)

star.keys @ Fri Jun 15 said:


> Hi KingIdiot, that is the problem, I am using Taikos over a wide range, which is causing these releases going all over the frequency range.... EQ didn't help much in this specific case because of this reason. I am not trying some envelope generators to limit their range and see how it goes...
> 
> Have a task to complete over the weekend, so will pick this up tomorrow and apply all good suggestions received through the kind responses from you experts!



yah, release envelope changes will surely help. Also, as I said, voice limiting, and/or putting samples into voice groups with limits may help as well.

multiband compression can help as well.

if you are triggering a lotof samples on top o f themselves, you may want to consider splitting out the outputs on some of them, and highpassing a few of them, and only letting one or two at the most to take up the low frequency range.

You can also try pushing the drums further back into your mix with verbage and early reflections. With a stronger band pass, then hitting closer versions only here and there for impact.

and I'll chime in on arrangement here as well. As stated above, Arrangement *IS* mixing sometimes. it may be worth considering using another instrument for some of the percussion and reducing the amount of taiko. For instance if you're running straight 8ths/16ths all the way through, a smaller drum for the constant strikes might be and idea, and then using the bigger taikos only for the 1/4 or 1/2 or what ever pulse you're trying to keep.

I don't hang out here much anymore, but I know there's was a tendency to strive for realism and that left everyone to just try to set up a mix with placement and "live" setup and "let it run". It doesn't really fly a lot of the time.


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## synthetic (Jun 15, 2012)

You could always post a clip.


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## germancomponist (Jun 16, 2012)

One important thing was not mentioned yet: 

The right setted gain of the lowest frequencies is also tempo based. For singel notes on a slower or slow tempo you can mix a lot of bass frequencies into the mix. But if the piece is written for a fast tempo, you have to reduce the bass frequencies, espesially with fast playing 8- or 16- notes. Experiment this and you will be impressed by the different results!


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## star.keys (Jun 16, 2012)

I managed to get this almost in control by a combination of an EQ, transient modulator and changing the arrangement a bit... thanks for all these valuable inputs, much appreciated! I will post the draft version as soon as I am happy with the draft. The way it stands now, I need to do a lot of work to get it in shape.
 
Cheers!


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