# Do you like your own music?



## kid-surf (Oct 14, 2006)

*Simple question really:* Are you a fan of your own music. 

*Another question:* Was there a specific event that made you want to become a composer/musician. 

Something I said in another thread made me think to ask this. So.. just wonderin' where you guys are coming from in those regards.....


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## Blackster (Oct 15, 2006)

Mmhh, do I like my own stuff? :neutral: 
Well, mostly ... yes, I do. :smile: 

I guess we all try to make a special sound or main-ideo come true when composing. The closer you come to that goal the more you´ll like it. 

But of course, there are many tracks I´ve written which I definitely don´t like. But that´s the way things go !!  

GreeGreets
Blackster


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## Daryl (Oct 15, 2006)

This is a difficult question to answer honestly. There are some things that I've written that I think work very well for the purpose that they were written for, and so I guess on that level I like them. However, I would never listen to my music out of choice. History has given us so many better composers, so why would I waste time listening to such an insignificant one?

The other thing to remember is that in my stuff I can remember where most of the passages are that I had problems writing, whereas with music by other composers I have no idea how easily (or not) the finished product came to them.

D


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## Niah (Oct 15, 2006)

Daryl @ Sun Oct 15 said:


> . However, I would never listen to my music out of choice. History has given us so many better composers, so why would I waste time listening to such an insignificant one?
> 
> 
> 
> D



That's another psychological phenomenon, low self-esteem.


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## Daryl (Oct 15, 2006)

Niah @ Sun Oct 15 said:


> Daryl @ Sun Oct 15 said:
> 
> 
> > . However, I would never listen to my music out of choice. History has given us so many better composers, so why would I waste time listening to such an insignificant one?
> ...


I choose to call it honesty!!!

D


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## Bruce Richardson (Oct 15, 2006)

You have to be in love with your music, if you expect to be an artist. I'm saying that in the most specific sense, that love is a verb, and that the expression of love is sometimes difficult--the harder choice.

When I "like" my own music, then I know it's right. But I only tend to like it after I have loved it a whole lot. I know a few people who don't love their music, and they are, man for man, hacks. That's just how it is.

You don't have to be the most technically or intellectually complex composer on the block to write fantstic music. But you do have to love it. Otherwise, no one will.

I know a composer (not someone who is a part of this community or NS) who is one of the most technically and intellectually brilliant musicians I have ever met. However, he should have been a musicologist or a theory teacher. His writing is absolutely wretched, devoid of what I'd call life force.

The intellect may be nuts and bolts of composing, but it's the emotional/sexual drive that creates music that people will actually like listening to.


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## Waywyn (Oct 15, 2006)

Well as for me, when I say that I don't like my music (after 2-3 weeks anymore) I mean that I definitely liked what I had to do or what I created, but when I look at it later there is so many stuff I find which I could do better or I hear an old piece and I go like "Damn, why did you go there, why did you choose this patch or this sound, it sounds horrible"

The thing is, somehow or often you are tied to a schedule and you just have to "ignore" some things. I am for my part a perfectionist. Everything has to be exactly like I want. I check every note, every part, I spend several minutes on drawing one velocity line until it absolutely represents what I had in mind. But sometimes there is simply no time to go into the details. It just had to be done and delivered. Most of these tracks I simply CAN'T LOVE or LIKE.

Generally I see created music as a snapshot or a picture a photographer did.
Even in the age of digital photography, there is just ONE version of a picture leaving the studio. Also the same with movies. Only ONE version leaves the studio and makes it to the cinemas.
And so it's the same with us. We deliver ONE piece at the end, but if we check back on it after 2-3 weeks with fresh ears and recovered mind, we mostly find a thousand things I could change. That's what I ment. So basically if you don't like the stuff you did anymore, then you have developed and reached a higher level of understanding, working with samples, writing music etc.
Of course it also can go backwards ("Damn, that track I did a year ago, blasts away everything I did after that.")


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## Daryl (Oct 15, 2006)

Bruce Richardson @ Sun Oct 15 said:


> You have to be in love with your music, if you expect to be an artist. I'm saying that in the most specific sense, that love is a verb, and that the expression of love is sometimes difficult--the harder choice.


I disagree. If you are in love with your own music it means that you aren't striving to improve and therefore end up writing derivative drivel and thinking that it is a work of art. Of course if you don't know the difference then it doesn't really matter. :lol: 

D


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## Alex W (Oct 15, 2006)

Daryl @ Mon Oct 16 said:


> Bruce Richardson @ Sun Oct 15 said:
> 
> 
> > You have to be in love with your music, if you expect to be an artist. I'm saying that in the most specific sense, that love is a verb, and that the expression of love is sometimes difficult--the harder choice.
> ...



Nah it doesn't, it just means that you're striving for perfection in your work.

I think there's no "good enough" when it comes to music. Obviously we can't always spend as much time as we'd like on pieces, because of deadlines etc. I think what Bruce's saying is: if at any point you're making art for art's sake with no deadlines or pressures, you gotta give it some love, and spend as much time as it takes to get it right.


Getting back to the question though, I do have pieces of my own that I listen to on a fairly regular basis. In some ways, I enjoy the pieces, and in other ways they piss me off, because they remind me of the fact that I wish I knew more music theory.


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## Thonex (Oct 15, 2006)

"There is no such thing as good music or bad music.... just honest music or dishonest music."


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## Daryl (Oct 15, 2006)

Alex W @ Sun Oct 15 said:


> Getting back to the question though, I do have pieces of my own that I listen to on a fairly regular basis. In some ways, I enjoy the pieces, and in other ways they piss me off, because they remind me of the fact that I wish I knew more music theory.


And that's my point. The older you get the more you will realise that you don't know anything. It's is precisely because I have a good undersòŒ^   G¥¢Œ^   G¥£Œ^   G¥¤Œ^   G¥¥Œ^   G¥¦Œ^   G¥§Œ^   G¥¨Œ^   G¥©Œ^   G¥ªŒ^   G¥«Œ^


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## PaulR (Oct 15, 2006)

Bruce Richardson @ Sun Oct 15 said:


> I know a composer (not someone who is a part of this community or NS) who is one of the most technically and intellectually brilliant musicians I have ever met. However, he should have been a musicologist or a theory teacher. His writing is absolutely wretched, devoid of what I'd call life force.



That's more common than you would think.


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## José Herring (Oct 15, 2006)

Bruce Richardson @ Sun Oct 15 said:


> You don't have to be the most technically or intellectually complex composer on the block to write fantstic music. But you do have to love it. Otherwise, no one will.



This statement really ressonates with me.


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## Chrislight (Oct 15, 2006)

Waywyn @ Sun Oct 15 said:


> Actually I talked to a sound engineer long ago and he told me that this question "Why do people like my stuff" or especially "Why does my stuff always sound worse than the music of guy xy" is a psychological phenomenon.
> 
> You hear your music different as other people do. Kinda like the effect when you record your own voice and you hear it without bone conduction and just outside your own head and not speaking at the same time than you are listeing.
> 
> ...



Agreed. Every musician, artist or craftsmen is aware of what they consider to be flaws or imperfections in their work. However, others may have a different perception and not even notice these alleged "flaws". That's the wonder of the way we perceive things - both visually and audibly. Beauty is not only in the eyes of the beholder, but also in the ears. :wink: What one may consider to be a "perfect" work of art, another might not care for at all. òŒs   Gª§Œs   Gª¨Œs   Gª©Œs   GªªŒs   Gª«Œs   Gª¬Œs   Gª­Œs   Gª®Œs   Gª¯Œs   Gª°Œs   Gª±Œs   Gª²Œs   Gª³Œs   Gª´Œs   GªµŒs   Gª¶Œs   Gª·Œs   Gª¸Œs   Gª¹Œs   GªºŒs   Gª»Œs   Gª¼Œs   Gª½Œs   Gª¾Œs   Gª¿Œs   GªÀŒs   GªÁŒs   GªÂŒs   GªÃŒs   GªÄŒs   GªÅŒs   GªÆŒs   GªÇŒs   GªÈŒs   GªÉŒs   GªÊŒs   GªËŒs   GªÌŒs   GªÍŒs   GªÎŒs   GªÏŒs   GªÐŒs   GªÑŒs   GªÒŒs   GªÓŒs   GªÔŒs   GªÕŒs   GªÖŒs   Gª×Œs   GªØŒs   GªÙŒs   GªÚŒs   GªÛŒs   GªÜŒs   GªÝŒs   GªÞŒs   GªßŒs   GªàŒs   GªáŒs   GªâŒs   GªãŒs   GªäŒs   GªåŒs   GªæŒs   GªçŒs   GªèŒs   GªéŒs   GªêŒs   GªëŒs   GªìŒs   GªíŒs   GªîŒs   GªïŒs   GªðŒs   GªñŒs   GªòŒs   GªóŒs   GªôŒs   GªõŒs   GªöŒs   Gª÷Œs   GªøŒs   GªùŒs   GªúŒs   GªûŒs   GªüŒs   GªýŒs   GªþŒs   GªÿŒs   G« Œs   G«Œs   G«Œs   G«Œs   G«Œs   G«Œs   G«Œs   G«Œs   G«Œs   G«	Œs   G«
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## kid-surf (Oct 15, 2006)

Interesting responses so far...... 

Well, I asked this question because it 'can' be a difficult question to answer depending on who you ask and what they feel about their work. No wrong answers.

It's a question of perception (mostly) in my opinion. I think there are some who look at their work and mostly see how far they 'could' still go and from that standpoint have a hard time liking/appreciating what they've done so far. Those types are chasing a variable finish line of sorts (it would seem). A finish line one may never be able to reach, and therefor ,perhaps, never be able appreciate what they've done even if it IS of the highest quality (no judgment--just an observation). On the other hand, there are surely those with an overly positive view of their work, everything they touch is gold. Incapable of writing a bad note (is what they presumably feel). Then perhaps there are those who can appreciate what they've done and like their music for *what it is*, not what it might eventually become.

And surly more schools of thought than that. It just seems to me that some live for the future, some live for the moment.


Me? I sincerely feel I can see my music for exactly what it is. It's not the best out there, not the worst. Therefor I like what it *is*. I'm not overly focused on what's it is not. I listen to my own music and enjoy it from that standpoint. I learn from it as well as enjoy it. I feel I am fairly objective listening to my own stuff. I feel I hear it as the next person would, for the most part (with the stipulation that they know it VERY well.  ). Some of my stuff is better than other stuff I've done. So..... I don't like the stuff I don't think is very good. Obviously. :D And do like the stuff I think is cool. Idunno, I feel like I'm very even handed with myself that way. 

To put a number on it. I feel like I'm 10% of the way there towards writing what "I" think is brilliant. A ways to go in that regard........ 

Yet, I like probably 75% of the stuff I write currently.


Otherwise... it's all relative-perception. IMO.


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## Hermitage59 (Oct 15, 2006)

Hmm, interesting question. 
Could be split into two?
Do you enjoy writing music?
Do you enjoy your results?

I'm in the same mind as Daryl here. There's a battle going on all the time between what i've learned and continue to learn, and an evermore apparent truth, that i know less and less in the greater scheme of things. That, and the frustration i feel when i work damned hard shaping and honing a segment or fragment and it turns out less than satisfactory, but i already knew that, and didn't trust my instincts when they were telling me it's crap. I can be brutally objective about the stuff i turn out, and no one is harder on me than myself. I'm afraid i'm one of those chaps who sweats over every note. Is it in it's right place, or superfluous? Have i written this note to fill a space, instead of weighing the merits of its inclusion, and working harder to write and orchestrate more effectively? (Was i just being lazy?) All these questions and more......

Writing music is a permanent and consuming passion for me, with all the emotive weight that Bruce mentioned.

However,from a ' enjoy listening to the results?' perspective, i don't. and share Daryl's view that far greater musical minds and hearts than mine have done a far better job of writing great music. (And let's face it. I learn far more from Beethoven than he could ever hope to learn from me.) He also remarked on improving. I agreee wholeheartedly. To be dissatisfied with an 'average' result is to know and understand one's own limitations, and for those so inclined, provoke a determination for improvement, and if one is objective enough with oneself, then the lessons learnt from that dissatisfaction can be permanently valuable.

There are times that I've detested what i've written, particularly after working at it day and night, searching for that 'perfect' place, but that self criticism, (and being honest, self disdain for the inadequacy that's staring at me in the face from the score) has never diminished the determination to chase excellence as i perceive it.
Alternatively, there have been times when i've been satisfied with the result, at least to a point of self acceptability, and a realisation that i actually 'said' what i wanted to say.

As for the defining moment that set the path? I was fortunate to have a grandfather who understood me well even at a very young age, and he played Classical records to me constantly, urging me to listen and enjoy (Most russian and european composers and of course many from the great man himself, LVB). That got the ball rolling.

Bruce, i'd have to disagree with your comment about those not liking their own music being hacks. We're all pretty well wired differently. Some people have a personal marker that determines their own 'satisfactory or not' yardstick that has little to do with the desire or need to be recognised by others. 
I've met (and studied with) good composers who were never satisfied with their work, and felt no need to explain their inner turmoil or frustration to others, or justitfy their work in any way. Yet they had a passion that ran deep in writing from the emotive depths. I thought much of their work to be excellent, yet they never saw or felt that within themselves. And although LVB wasn't that fond of his own stuff, (another who sweated over each note) expressing his dissatisfaction at his own limitations, and railing frequently at others as a visible response to that inner frustration (as historical records show us), it would be scarcely fair or realistic to refer to him as a hack, simply for not loving his own work.

I think you are right in this sense though. 
There's a difference between those who have a love for writing, and enjoy writing for it's own sake, with an emotive sense of well being when they listen to their own work, enjoying the memory of not only the hard work that went into bringing it to fruition, but the result as well;

and the other side of the coin, from those whose obsession for excellence (according to their own criteria), and journey of emotion that sees them constantly at odds with themselves, as they fight to say what they really want to express. And it seems from a historical sense at least, that those who torment themselves, and express their self dissatisfaction often have the greatest 'love' of all for a medium that gives them to the opportunity to outpour from often dark and complex inner chambers of emotion and thought.

There's also a third possibility. Ass kissers. Those who gain gratification from appeasing those in control or power, and spend their musical lives so eager, almost desperate, for those words of ackowledgement, that they'll prostitute their own musical selves for ego replenishment, just to be among the ' royal court of the accepted.' (at least until the next ass kisser comes along.). Plenty of hacks in that crowd, 'imitating the imitators'.

Interesting discussion, and points of view.

Regards,

Alex.


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## tobyond (Oct 15, 2006)

Back when I first started seriously writing music (as a pimply faced teenager) I hated all music but my own. That why I started writing music, because I couldn't enjoy any other music. I have since realized that here is a lot of great music out there, a lot of it better than my own, it's what drives me. I have some pieces I've written that I really like and a few that don't necessarily do it for me, but they still work on some level, so I'm satisfied.


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## kid-surf (Oct 15, 2006)

*Bruce --* I relate to the "love" idea. I like having fun, so I could never write music if I generally didn't like/love what I was doing and mostly saw flaws. As a whole, I do *love* my musical sensibility, it truly is a representation of who I am on the inside. I do feel like I can, and will, better represent who I am as I get better... but I feel I represent it well enough now to describe who I am through music. I would say that is my motivation for writing music--- to *hear* who I am. Simple as that. I also relate to the "emotional/sexual drive" you describe. I would say that describes my approach to writing. Generally I want their to be sexual energy in my music. Even if it's got nothing to do with sex.... (hard to describe, but I get what you mean)

*Jose --* hey at least you aren't 1% -vs- 99%. Or _less_...... :D


*Daryl --* I can see how one might feel the way you do, but what you consider honesty I consider perception. Let's say for arguments sake that the masters you admire the most all hated their music. Then what? It could be said that you're perception of them being any good is miss placed, because THEY might have told you as much. Yet would it be true? (I understand your point of view -- because I used to think of music in much the same way. Then one day I came to my life's truth which was that perception is what leads people to like or dislike music, no mater how it ranks in terms of theory or musical training. So there are sure to be people out there more trained than me that feel my music is crap. Yet, I will never believe they are right. And I will also never believe they are right about their own music being below standards................ unless I listen to their music and don't "feel" anything. Then they may have a point. :D

My other thought on your school of thought is that people will often use that as a motivator. I believe some people feel that if they are content with what they write (in a general sense) that this will leave them stagnant. I Believe they are terrified of the thought, so they use "ultimate truth" as a motivator. (just my "opinion") 

No judgment on you.... just sharing my view.

*Alex W --* I _do_ think there is "good enough". Otherwise, nothing is good enough. (it would seem)


*Thonex --* I believe in that idea. Goes back to perception being the only true indication of what music is for others.

*Lux --* I honestly write 'mostly' for me. If I like something I've written no amount of slamming from others is going to change my perception of it. On the other hand, I also write with the intent of moving others. I'm hope others feel "the same feeling" I felt when I wrote it as they listen. You know the feeling you get when you think of something you like? The way you feel at that moment, I'm hoping people feel THAT feeling as they listen. I would say that's my motivation in pleasing others. But if others don't feel that... well, why would it change that feeling for me? It doesn't. I've already committed myself to it at that point....

*Alex P --* I used to be the same way. Now a days I still have thoughts of "I could have done xyz better in that piece". The difference for me now is that I can still enjoy the music for what it is. But I also learn something about myself in the process..... gives me something to try next time. This way I keep growing and getting better. As well, sometimes I do stuff that I feel is perfect for what it is. It's rare that I feel that way, but sometimes I do. I think I'm being "reasonable" to feel that way. One thing with me is that I don't usually come back weeks latter to listen to a piece and find myself surprised thinking it isn't very good. Generally I know what it is when it leaves my hands. If I'm cringing then, then I'll cringe in much the same way later. I usually am not thinking something is cool then later think it's not. That's what I mean by saying I feel I am fair/objective with myself. 


*Chrislight --* my thoughts exactly!

*Elfen --* I relate to that too. Generally I drop the stuff that's not hitting me emotionally right off the bat. When I was younger I'd be half way finished, or even done with a piece of music before I realized I hated it. :D


Just sharing my 'opinion'.........


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## kid-surf (Oct 15, 2006)

Hermitage59 @ Sun Oct 15 said:


> I agreee wholeheartedly. To be dissatisfied with an 'average' result is to know and understand one's own limitations, and for those so inclined, provoke a determination for improvement, and if one is objective enough with oneself, then the lessons learnt from that dissatisfaction can be permanently valuable.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Alex.




I disagree. :D I believe one can like/love what they do currently and STILL be clearly aware of how they can/must grow. Still have that fire in their eyes and passion for exponential improvement. For some it's not an either/or situation.

Aside from that --- if everyone should put this pressure on themselves (don't like your music until it's at the level of the world class masters --- of which there are only a handful) then most every composer would be in for a life of writing music they simply don't think is very good.

After all.... the masters are masters *because* they are so far ahead of everyone else that it's nearly impossible to attain that level. So just realize that you may never like your music if that is your mark to hit. 

Really, no judgments. But it does strike me as sad....


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## Bruce Richardson (Oct 15, 2006)

I was very clear about what I defined "love" to be...but I will be even more specific. I believe that love is placing the welfare of the "loved" as high as "the lover's" capability allows.

As that relates to loving a piece of music, I'll give some examples. One way to express love towards a piece of music is to be fearless about cutting away something flashy that doesn't advance the overall strength of the composition. Alistair Cookes english teacher referred to this as not being afraid to "murder your little darlings."

I believe Beethoven was tortured precisely BECAUSE he loved his music. The opposite of love is not hate. It is apathy. You can love and hate something without contradiction...every artist has a personal balance as to where his feelings about his work lie. Loving is not a feeling. Love is a verb, an action.

That is the relationship I refer to when saying a person who doesn't love his own music is a hack. Again, love strictly in the sense of placing the welfare of something important (in this case, a musical work) over the way one might temporarily feel about it.

Or to put it another way, I would write much worse music if I didn't love it. If I didn't love it, I would be willing to say "that's good enough" rather than "what more can I do?"

Warm fuzzy feelings are a different story. Love isn't that, or rather, that isn't love. That's puppy love or infatuation. And I would agree wholeheartedly that infatuation with one's own music would make it incredibly difficult to grow as an artist.


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## kid-surf (Oct 15, 2006)

I didn't entirely follow that... but enough so that I think your definition of love is essentially the way I feel about my own music. Therefore it leaves plenty of room for growth and a clear understanding of ways to do that. As well as the idea of the unknown one can forever walk towards. (and that is what is so cool/sad about music --- everyone dies before they are "done" - essentially)


But I'll ask you (or anyone else) to explain why this statement I made is wrong. *"I do think there is "good enough". Otherwise, nothing is good enough. (it would seem) "*

If there is no "good enough", then no one has created a piece of music that is completed. True or not true....?


Idunno, I think you gotta also know when something is done, if it is. Primitive example -- could _Mary Had A little Lamb_ be any better? To me it's 'done'.

Or is this idea of "good enough" metaphorical in the broad sense of music creation in its entirety? If so, i can get behind that. If it's used to imply that we should never be content enough to not continue the search for "better".... with every NEW pice of music.

But for me -- I'm not gonna go back and try to fix old music. F' that... I think bigger leaps can be made with writing something new. I learn much more that way than rehashing something that wasn't working for me -- or trying to better something I feel is completed.

Or maybe I missed the point entirely?


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## mathis (Oct 15, 2006)

Every bird has its song. If you don't like your music you might have not found your song yet.


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## Alex W (Oct 15, 2006)

kid-surf @ Mon Oct 16 said:


> *Alex W --* I _do_ think there is "good enough". Otherwise, nothing is good enough. (it would seem)



Sorry, what I meant was, it's not good to have an "ah that's good enough, screw it, I can't be bothered fixing it" attitude.

Like... I know people who, when recording parts in a multitrack arrangement, often record sloppy guitar parts or whatever and have this kind of lazy "ah that's good enough, it does the job" sort of mentality, even though they realise that it's clearly not the best take and they could do better.

I'd compare it to a visual artist leaving an unintentional ugly smudge across one of their works.

I believe you've gotta be brutal on yourself and not give in until you reach the best, closest to perfection performance you can possibly achieve for each part, even if it requires 100 extra takes. (obviously deadlines don't always allow this but you get my point)


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## Bruce Richardson (Oct 15, 2006)

mathis @ Sun Oct 15 said:


> Every bird has its song. If you don't like your music you might have not found your song yet.



I like this.


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