# Need some advice on a potential project



## Danny_Owen (Jul 5, 2010)

Hi guys,

Coming to the end of my course now, I'll be finished within the month. Yesterday I met a friend of a friend who is a director. We got talking about films etc and they said they had this documentary coming up and we're going to exchange showreels to check each other's work out. If that goes well then he's inviting me to do the music for this documentary (he has no one else in mind currently); however, he said 'of course there's no money involved', which, being a student I'm kind of used to. However, he told me that he makes his living off being a director- perhaps not very much, but he does make money from it.

Here are my thoughts on this so far... I _get_ working for free on student or charity projects, you need to build up some potential contacts for the future, credits, and showreel material. But working for free for someone who is actually going to make money out of it (although probably not much)? Sounds ludicrous to me. 

If they're not willing to pay for my services now I get the feeling if they ever do make it bigger than they currently are they won't take me with them, they'll just find someone that already charges because they'll consider them more professional. Do you think I'm right on this?

So, while this guy is probably the biggest working indie director I've met so far and could potentially be a good contact, should I tell him to basically pay me something or I don't work for him? I think even a token amount for this project may be good enough, but free..?

Would love to hear any thoughts on this. I know we composers don't like to undersell ourselves so I'm likely to get a lot of 'make the bastard pay' comments lol, but I do want to be making contacts at the same time in this early stage of my career. My feeling though is that if he doesn't respect my work enough to pay for it now though, he never will. I know he's probably only earning enough to just pay for the film and keep a little bit back for himself- is it unusual that the director makes money and no-one else does (within Indie films/documentaries), or is this fairly common place?


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## Lex (Jul 5, 2010)

My thoughts....if there is a budget, you should get a cut from it, no matter how small that cut is...unless you like the project so much that you want to do it for free as a FAVOR...in which case you should make it clear its a favor..

good luck

aLex


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## jlb (Jul 5, 2010)

Danny, I would do it for nothing this time. Think of your payment as the fact other people may see it, it may lead to something else. I wouldn't ever do another one for him for nothing though. If he asks for another one for nothing I would tell him to get lost. Then he is taking advantage.

jlb


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## Christian Marcussen (Jul 5, 2010)

It depends on the amount of music and workload. If he expects 30 minutes of high quality music while making without paying, while making a living himself I say to hell with him 

I've done a fair share of free pro-bono gigs in the past, but they have always been for small projects - no more than 10 minutes of music - and never for someone making a buck off it.


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## Narval (Jul 5, 2010)

I would suggest you ask for back end benefits. Those may never come, but at least you let them know that what you do is work not hobby, and that you are worth something. 

Also, since you are investing your time (= money) in their film, ask for Associate Producer credit.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 5, 2010)

Danny if you put zero value on your work, in all likelihood that is how much value they will attach to it.

It does not have to be a lot, but you need to insist they give you SOMETHING, either on the front or back end and it must be in writing.

My first film paid me a whopping $1500 for 3 songs and 30 minutes of underscore but I retained half the publishing. Eventually it played twice on CBS late night and I made $25,000 in royalties.

It is called Show Business for a reason.


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## Danny_Owen (Jul 5, 2010)

Thanks for all the responses guys, they've been really helpful.

From what people have said, I think I will take the approach of having a low fee but retaining at least half the publishing rights on it (depending on what the fee is). At least that way if he ever does manage to get it broadcast on TV instead of just in festivals etc then I can stand to make some money from it. Also hopefully he'll value it more.

Jib, I think working for him for free this time and then asking for money next time probably wouldn't work, he'd more than likely just go elsewhere and find someone else who was free if I refused to work for free for him next time; and in that case I'd lose him as a contact anyway.

Cheers all


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## jlb (Jul 5, 2010)

I hope you get the work Danny and he doesn't just go to someone who will do it for nothing. I agree with the others, it depends how much music and what it is for.

Best Wishes

jlb


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## José Herring (Jul 5, 2010)

Kays makes good points.

I don't know about the UK but in America if this thing is going on TV forget about the publishing. That usually goes to whoever is distributing the motion picture.

In my experience it's 50/50 on whether they will hire and pay you again when they do have money. Directors are people and once they get comfortable with you and consider you a friend then they may take you along on other bigger projects in the future. Also if he's a documentary director the competition isn't too bad as many big names won't really do docs or compete as hard as other types of filmed work. And, in the docs that I did early on ( all of which paid something though not much) all the people I worked for became intensely loyal and hired me again on their next project.

But if the project is good and the director has a track record then personally I'd go for it. Really you're not missing out on any amount of money that's really going to matter in the long run. Plus if it plays on TV you stand a chance of recouping a decent amount of money through PRO's.

Putting the money aside though honestly ask yourself if this is a project that artistically you'd like to be involved in.

I have a few A list composer friends and almost all of them do pro-bono work from time to time. Of course they have millions in the bank so its kind of easy for them to do it. But they all say the same thing. When you're still not a recognized name the credit for doing work is worth more than the money. And one who's probably the biggest star of us all has the saying that work begets work. If you're doing nothing then anything is better than doing nothing. And if you're working chances are that you'll be chosen to do more work than somebody who's at home doing nothing waiting for the "right gig".

It's a personal choice. If you have no other offers then for me personally sucking up one that pays little to nothing is better than sitting at home doing nothing. Just make sure you have an agreement with the film makers that he doesn't spread around that you volunteered for this job and that you're included in all sound mixes, ect.... That way you'll make valuablòé‹   Ûºé‹   Û»é‹   Û¼é‹   Û½é‹   Û¾é‹   Û¿é‹   ÛÀé‹   ÛÁé‹   ÛÂé‹   ÛÃéŒ   ÛÄéŒ   ÛÅéŒ   ÛÆéŒ   ÛÇéŒ   ÛÈéŒ   ÛÉé   ÛÊé   ÛËé   ÛÌé   ÛÍé   ÛÎé   ÛÏé   ÛÐé   ÛÑé   ÛÒé   ÛÓé   ÛÔé   ÛÕé   ÛÖé   Û×é   ÛØé   ÛÙé   ÛÚé   ÛÛé   ÛÜé   ÛÝé   ÛÞé   Ûßé   Ûàé   Ûáé   Ûâé   Ûãé   Ûäé   Ûåé   Ûæé   Ûçé   Ûèé   Ûéé   Ûêé   Ûëé   Ûìé   Ûíé   Ûîé   Ûïé   Ûðé   Ûñé   Ûòé   Ûóé   Ûôé   Ûõé   Ûöé   Û÷é   Ûøé   Ûùé   Ûúé   Ûûé   Ûüé   ÛýéŽ   ÛþéŽ   ÛÿéŽ   Û éŽ   ÛéŽ   ÛéŽ   ÛéŽ   ÛéŽ   Ûé   Ûé   Ûé   Ûé   Û	é   Û
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## JohnG (Jul 5, 2010)

midphase @ 5th July 2010 said:


> No money = no publishing! You should keep 100% publishing if no money is exchanging hands.



+1


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## José Herring (Jul 5, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Mon Jul 05 said:


> Mike Greene @ Mon Jul 05 said:
> 
> 
> > My attitude has always been that I'd rather work for free than work for some nominal amount. If he pays you $500, then in the back of his mind, that's your rate. But if it's free, then there's no doubt you're the one doing him a favor.
> ...



Could not agree more with this. Never half ass it. Try to make it sound as if you had a 3 million dollar music budget.


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## Marius Masalar (Jul 5, 2010)

Just thought I'd chime in with a blog post I wrote on this very subject some time ago. I figured it's relevant to the discussion if anyone feels like a quick read:

http://journal.mathazzar.com/post/445994185/letter-to-clients (http://journal.mathazzar.com/post/44599 ... to-clients)

Danny, I think you can probably stand to help him out on this one for free assuming you keep the rights and all the other great points people have pointed out...the trick is to be wary of how you're going to approach the next gig with this guy. Either way, I wish you the best of luck with managing to get a fair and inspiring working relationship going — let us know how it goes!


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## jlb (Jul 6, 2010)

Hi Danny, that's what I thought in the first place, do this one for free as favour but not the second one

jlb


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## Danny_Owen (Jul 6, 2010)

true, true, I still don't like it, but will have to see what happens when I talk to him next


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## JohnG (Jul 6, 2010)

Just to round out the already excellent advice, what I would include in an agreement to score something that's cheap:

1. Producer gets a synchronisation license only;

2. Composer retains all ownership of music provided, including publishing, copyright of music, ownership of master recordings, right to make derivative works; and

3. Composer to receive credit in titles and paid advertising that is under the control of Producer comparable to that of screenplay writer.

There's other stuff too, so you should be sure you have proper advice on what is included and not included.


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