# First Flight - 90's style orchestral



## marclawsonmusic (Sep 30, 2020)

Hi all,

I recently completed this track and wanted to share with the forum:




I have been working on composition, orchestration, MIDI programming, samples, mixing, etc. for a few years and am finally getting to the point where I can get ideas out of my head to completion. I still have a long way to go... in fact, this piece would probably be nicer with some more harmonic variation... but I've spent enough time on it and it's time to let go and move on to the next piece.

Anyway, I'm grateful for any constructive feedback or comments.

Cheers,
Marc


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## Traz (Sep 30, 2020)

That was really great! your orchestration and midi programming skills are also really great.

Only really negative thing I have to say is I felt like the overall mix was a little on the darker side and maybe could be a touch brighter? but mix opinions are subjective so whatever you want to do with that.

I have to ask the obligatory "What libraries did you use?" if you don't mind.


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## marclawsonmusic (Sep 30, 2020)

Thank you, @Traz. Libraries were CSS, CSB, CineWinds and LADD. Oh, and good old EWQLSO harp


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## ryans (Sep 30, 2020)

Nice work! Definitely 90s James Horner-ish vibes!

Ryan


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## RonV (Sep 30, 2020)

I'd certainly call it a successful effort. I think the orchestration sounds very natural and the mix pretty well-balanced to me. The sections are clear and located, and the tone is nice to my ears.


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## dcoscina (Sep 30, 2020)

Nice piece. Sounds very natural and organic. Has a bit of a John Barry vibe to it with those majestic horn lines.


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## marclawsonmusic (Sep 30, 2020)

ryans said:


> Nice work! Definitely 90s James Horner-ish vibes!
> 
> Ryan



Thanks, @ryans! He's one of my influences for sure.


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## marclawsonmusic (Sep 30, 2020)

RonV said:


> I'd certainly call it a successful effort. I think the orchestration sounds very natural and the mix pretty well-balanced to me. The sections are clear and located, and the tone is nice to my ears.



Thank you!


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## marclawsonmusic (Sep 30, 2020)

dcoscina said:


> Nice piece. Sounds very natural and organic. Has a bit of a John Barry vibe to it with those majestic horn lines.



Thanks so much for listening, David. I really appreciate the kind words


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## paularthur (Sep 30, 2020)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I recently completed this track and wanted to share with the forum:
> 
> ...




I think you nailed it. Love it.


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## Tice (Sep 30, 2020)

Nice piece! Good theme, very good samples that seem quite well mixed and ballanced.
I reckon one area you can look at to bring it further is that there is still plenty of room in the orchestration for details and flourishes. Areas where the main melody and bass and basic harmony are represented, but where more detail can be added to enrich it. This can be little touches of woodwinds, subtle rhythmic patterns, little repeats of a main melody in a question-answer kind of way, the options are endless. The overall trick is to know where the spaces in the orchestration are, and when they are full.
An example of this is at 25 seconds, where the theme had just had it's exposition and is being expanded on outside of the strings. At the end of the musical phrase there's a space left for adding detail. The listener can handle a bit more complexity at that point because the theme has been established. Then when you bring more melodic content in at 38 seconds, you give the listener something new. But 38 seconds of just strings plus one more instrument is a long time, especially with a relatively short musical phrase being repeated. So there's space there in the listener's mind. Fill it with details and flourishes and your composition really goes to another level. But don't overdo it, or we lose the plot.


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## Mike Marino (Sep 30, 2020)

Great work, Marc! I know this was just a starting exercise for you so I can't wait to hear what you're writing next. I'm sure you'll be able to further incorporate many of the techniques discussed here as well as further info from your current studies. Keep it up brother!!!


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## marclawsonmusic (Sep 30, 2020)

paularthur said:


> I think you nailed it. Love it.



Thank you, Paul!


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## marclawsonmusic (Sep 30, 2020)

Mike Marino said:


> Great work, Marc! I know this was just a starting exercise for you so I can't wait to hear what you're writing next. I'm sure you'll be able to further incorporate many of the techniques discussed here as well as further info from your current studies. Keep it up brother!!!



Thanks buddy. You know I appreciate you!


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## marclawsonmusic (Sep 30, 2020)

Tice said:


> Nice piece! Good theme, very good samples that seem quite well mixed and ballanced.
> I reckon one area you can look at to bring it further is that there is still plenty of room in the orchestration for details and flourishes. Areas where the main melody and bass and basic harmony are represented, but where more detail can be added to enrich it. This can be little touches of woodwinds, subtle rhythmic patterns, little repeats of a main melody in a question-answer kind of way, the options are endless. The overall trick is to know where the spaces in the orchestration are, and when they are full.
> An example of this is at 25 seconds, where the theme had just had it's exposition and is being expanded on outside of the strings. At the end of the musical phrase there's a space left for adding detail. The listener can handle a bit more complexity at that point because the theme has been established. Then when you bring more melodic content in at 38 seconds, you give the listener something new. But 38 seconds of just strings plus one more instrument is a long time, especially with a relatively short musical phrase being repeated. So there's space there in the listener's mind. Fill it with details and flourishes and your composition really goes to another level. But don't overdo it, or we lose the plot.



@Tice - great feedback! Honestly, I don't feel I have got around to thinking about flourishes yet (in the way that JW would have done them - he is so great with filling in those gaps). I was so focused on getting the 'main idea' orchestrated correctly... and then putting in a solid background for it. I feel that the flourishes are more 'advanced'. Definitely something I need to work on more - because it really makes a difference. Thanks again for such a great suggestion.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Oct 1, 2020)

It sounds lovely, Marc! I particularly like the strings, they sound gorgeous! And I agree with what's been said already: The overall balance between the sections is good, however to my ears it does sound as if the brass, especially the trumpet, is slightly less well rooted in the piece. I also think, like was said above too, that the piece is a little too "bare" overall, it sounds like some instrument tracks were muted in the sequencer before rendering the piece (which I know is not the case, it just sounds like that  ) For example the transition at 0:38 sounds really good in itself, but the transition IMO sounds like it builds up to a busier/more crowded section of music, which it doesn't. The lack of "things going on" becomes clear again a few seconds after 0:38. Apart from this, very nice piece. I enjoyed listening to it.


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 1, 2020)

Thanks for your feedback, @hbjdk!


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## Patrick.K (Oct 1, 2020)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I recently completed this track and wanted to share with the forum:
> 
> ...




I love it, beautiful harmonies, excellent choice for the instrumentation (personal opinion), the strings and the brass have a beautiful color, that is listened to with pleasure! .This changes the usual "Trailers" stuffed with percussions of the "Stormdrums" style ".
Great job! ... that sounds very professional (But that's just my personal opinion).


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 1, 2020)

Patrick.K said:


> I love it, beautiful harmonies, excellent choice for the instrumentation (personal opinion), the strings and the brass have a beautiful color, that is listened to with pleasure! .This changes the usual "Trailers" stuffed with percussions of the "Stormdrums" style ".
> Great job! ... that sounds very professional (But that's just my personal opinion).



Thanks very much, @Patrick.K!!!


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## BlackDorito (Oct 3, 2020)

Sounds great, happy/heroic gestures well executed. I'm hard pressed to make a suggestion ... perhaps consider speeding up the tempo here and there to evoke moments of excitement or exhilaration.


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 4, 2020)

BlackDorito said:


> Sounds great, happy/heroic gestures well executed. I'm hard pressed to make a suggestion ... perhaps consider speeding up the tempo here and there to evoke moments of excitement or exhilaration.



Thanks for the kind words and feedback, @BlackDorito!


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## paularthur (Oct 6, 2020)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Thank you, @Traz. Libraries were CSS, CSB, CineWinds and LADD. Oh, and good old EWQLSO harp


core or pro? =)


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 6, 2020)

I have both Core and Pro, but for this track, I think I only used the woodwinds from Core (Flute, Oboe, Clarinet, Bassoon). Not sure if the Contrabassoon is in Pro or Core.


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## Cass Hansen (Oct 6, 2020)

So many thigs to enjoy about this piece. I really found your structure/form so satisfying, the piece felt like it had integrity which is missing in so many pieces I listen to of late. And I just like the piece in general, great melody and orchestration, and a nice clear, rich mix.

I personally haven't like or used the CSS strings because of their tone but this might change my mind. I'll have to take another look. I don't know if you would mind sharing, but the violins sound oh so good here. Did you use any of the onboard CSS reverb and did you EQ them and add a master reverb or other enhancing plugins on the violin stem. 

Thoroughly enjoyed this one. Keep up the great work!
Cass


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## oooooooooooooooooh (Oct 6, 2020)

This is really great! The orchestration is wonderfully balanced, I also appreciate anyone who exercises some restraint and doesn't beat you over the head with every instrument at once. The brass felt especially well utilized.

Not really much to criticize, but I do agree with the earlier comments on the mix being a little dark (though honestly that's partially personal preference, I happen to like brighter mixes than most), and—admittedly in spite of my comment amount it being restrained—I think working on transitions would be a great way to take your work to the next level. Just adding a little spice to a well-cooked dish.

As a somewhat unrelated side note, how much time have you spent with percussion? I don't think that this piece in particular needs much (anymore would have gotten in the way, actually, so I think you did great here), but I've known my fair share of composers who either think of percussion sections in pre-20th century terms or only in aggressive hybrid terms. Nothing wrong with either at all of course, both of those approaches are essential and have their place, but there's a whole lot you can do with percussion in between that I think sometimes gets neglected, so I'm just curious if that's an area you've explored much yet. If not, you have some very exciting listening ahead of you.


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 7, 2020)

Cass Hansen said:


> So many thigs to enjoy about this piece. I really found your structure/form so satisfying...



Hi @Cass Hansen, thank you so much for the kind words. You made a comment about the structure, which is something I spent a lot of time on. I have been trying to put into practice some training on variation and it was surprisingly effective in this case. The original idea was a 4-bar motif that I was (somehow) able to stretch into 4 minutes!




Cass Hansen said:


> Did you use any of the onboard CSS reverb and did you EQ them and add a master reverb or other enhancing plugins on the violin stem.



On the tone of CSS, I actually do have some EQ on the strings bus:





I am sending the strings to Phoenix Verb 'Large Hall' on pre-fader -5.0db (to push them back a bit). Here is the Phoenix Verb setting:





Finally, I EQ the signal before it hits the reverb. This is affectionately known as the 'Abbey Road Trick' - you can Google for more info. I find that this helps keep the clarity from the source signal since only the mids are ringing out from the reverb:





Hope this is helpful! 

Best,
Marc


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 7, 2020)

oooooooooooooooooh said:


> As a somewhat unrelated side note, how much time have you spent with percussion? I don't think that this piece in particular needs much (anymore would have gotten in the way, actually, so I think you did great here), but I've known my fair share of composers who either think of percussion sections in pre-20th century terms or only in aggressive hybrid terms.



@oooooooooooooooooh, first of all, thanks for the kind words. I really appreciate you taking time to listen.

On the percussion, I actually utilized it more on this piece than I have in the past. I had never taken time to use glock and crotales for accents, and had not done much with tubular bells. It is really amazing the 'magic' or 'sparkle' that percussion can add to a piece. I feel I still have a lot to learn about percussion - for example, I've not really applied Xylophone or Celeste very much... Vibraphone too - all really nice colors that add can so much.


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## Cass Hansen (Oct 7, 2020)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Hi @Cass Hansen, thank you so much for the kind words. You made a comment about the structure, which is something I spent a lot of time on. I have been trying to put into practice some training on variation and it was surprisingly effective in this case. The original idea was a 4-bar motif that I was (somehow) able to stretch into 4 minutes!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks so much Marc for the detailed explanation of your string bus, really, really appreciated! So many members don't share their details on setups when asked, so this is refreshing.

Also thanks on the tip pertaining to the Abbey Road trick which I know nothing about. Will check it out now. Thanks again for sharing this---your the man!
Cass


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## Gmetcalfe (Oct 12, 2020)

Very nice. Do you find it relatively easy to blend the Cinewinds with CSS?


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 12, 2020)

Gmetcalfe said:


> Very nice. Do you find it relatively easy to blend the Cinewinds with CSS?



Thank you, @Gmetcalfe. Yes, I did find it fairly easy. These days, I just use a single 'hall' reverb and send each section to it in varying amounts. I use pre-fader for the sends, so I can bring the fader down and push it farther back into the 'hall'.


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## Living Fossil (Oct 12, 2020)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Finally, I EQ the signal before it hits the reverb. This is affectionately known as the 'Abbey Road Trick' - you can Google for more info. I find that this helps keep the clarity from the source signal since only the mids are ringing out from the reverb:



Hi Marc, i think you should definitely avoid this kind of hardcore filtering.
It takes away a lot of the impact and creates a strange unnatural impression.
(maybe this setting would be useful if it's a surreal scene...)

The Abbey-Road trick is spread a lot via YT and similar channels and does a huge amount of damage, since many people believe what they are told and think that it's actually a good thing to do.
It isn't.
Except if someone is using a completely wrong reverb.
Which you aren't doing. 


Nice piece!


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 13, 2020)

Living Fossil said:


> Hi Marc, i think you should definitely avoid this kind of hardcore filtering.
> It takes away a lot of the impact and creates a strange unnatural impression.
> (maybe this setting would be useful if it's a surreal scene...)
> 
> ...



Hi @Living Fossil, I'm actually quite happy with the results on this track. Did something in the mix sound surreal or unnatural? If so, I am not hearing it... can you help point that out?

Since I am not using dry samples, I think the effect of the filtering is much less pronounced. For example, my string basses already have plenty of room low-end from the CSS scoring stage... so if I send that into the reverb, it comes out muddy and muffled. Filtering lets the mids ring out without the mud.

Same with the high frequencies - much of that would be absorbed by the room anyway, and in fact the PhoenixVerb has lowpass built in - so maybe the high cut is not doing very much in this case...

Regardless, I am not hearing anything surreal or unnatural due to this.

I think if I were using dry samples, your point would be very valid. In that case, I would _want _the low frequencies as part of my initial 'room sound'. But since I already have that, I am just looking for a ringing / blending effect, and this technique gets me there.


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## Living Fossil (Oct 13, 2020)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Hi @Living Fossil, I'm actually quite happy with the results on this track. Did something in the mix sound surreal or unnatural? If so, I am not hearing it... can you help point that out?



Hi Marc,
the whole bass region sounds quite "dead" (on studio monitors) and empty.

Real rooms (and halls etc.) preserve a lot of energy in the low region, and the whole instrumentation for orchestral instruments was developed with those spaces in mind.

In your mix, it sounds really good starting with the mids; below it it's unreal, since the ear tries to imagine all the sources in one space.

If you are afraid of "mud", i would rather look for the area between 200-400 Hz (depending on context).
And then check any possible rumbling (i.e. frequencies below 30Hz)
(in general, i'm not referring to this piece)

But when you apply additional reverb (which is a good thing) it's quite crucial that the range between 100-300 Hz gets enough of it. That's simply the way orchestral music sounds, as long as it's played in real spaces.


With the infamous "Abbey-Road-trick" it's good to keep in mind that it was not developed for orchestral music that comes in pristine quality, neither for high end reverberation.
Certainly, there are cases were such concepts make sense - e.g. when you have massive synth basses below the orchestra that require dominance in that frequency area.

But in your piece, the whole scope tends towards traditional orchestration; that's why i would maintain the realism. And in real life, low frequencies of the orchestras do have a lot of reverb.


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 13, 2020)

Living Fossil said:


> Hi Marc,
> the whole bass region sounds quite "dead" (on studio monitors) and empty.



OK, I will check further. Thanks for your feedback!

And yes, bass for orchestral music is _very _important... I remember being in a concert hall before a Wagner performance and the percussionist was tuning / testing the bass drum. With the slightest hit, I felt those low frequencies in my guts - and I was in the back of the concert hall. I don't want to lose that impact.

Cheers and thanks,
Marc


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