# Best plugins for stereo spread/width/Air and Shine?



## dannymc (Sep 6, 2015)

hi guys i' a logic pro x user. just wondering what plugin's you guys highly recommend for the mixing phase for getting that professional width stereo spread and air into a mix? i hear QL spaces is great as a reverb for this, is there some similar plugins for stereo spreading enhancement? and any other plugins to just add that extra shine and sparkle to a final mix after all eqing and compression? thanks guys.


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## Maestro1972 (Sep 6, 2015)

I am by no means an expert in this area so I am sharing what works for me. For Stereo Width I use different techniques for different sections. For Brass, I use Spaces (Acme/Berlin Church) as a send and VSS2 as an insert. I then bus to a subgroup (hrns, tpts, bones, tube) and as an insert add a stereo delay. If instrument is "located" on the stage right, I delay stage left. This gives a wider sound. Caution: a little delay goes a LONG way, way, way, way. 

My favorite width "trick" I use for my choirs. I route all my choirs to a choirs group and use Wave Center and Waves S1 as an insert. 

Finally with my orchestra I route all the effects to it's own bus and use Waves s1. By using it on only the effects channel, the instruments do not loose their positioning and the hall sounds bigger and more realistic.

So plugins for width:Waves S1 and Center, stereo delay, and Spaces.


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## tack (Sep 6, 2015)

A delay _after_ VSS2? Given VSS2 adds early reflections and does the instrument positioning, I'd have thought a delay after this point would sound very unnatural. Will have to experiment with that idea.


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## davidgary73 (Sep 6, 2015)

Stereo Width, you can use any of your reverb plugs with a 0.9 secs preset and use the reverb mix knob/fader to adjust till you hear it blending with your music without over smuggling it.

You can also check out PA bx_controlv2 @ https://www.plugin-alliance.com/en/products/bx_control_v2.html

Read from many forums that these plugs below can help to give that shine and sparkle to a mix:

1) Kush Claraphonic DSP Mk2 (ilok2 required) @ http://www.thehouseofkush.com/#!plugins/cosa
2) Slate Free Revival (ilok2 required) @ http://www.slatedigital.com/products/revival/
3) Slate Custom Series (ilok2 required) @ http://www.slatedigital.com/products/custom-series/

Don't own Kush and Slate Custom Series tho but I do use the Slate free Revival occasionally. As of now, i hardly use Revival since i bought Acustica Acqua Magenta 2 a "Massive Passive" and it stays on my masterbuss for good


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## dannymc (Sep 6, 2015)

Yes one of the senior composers here recommended the Kush Claraphonic and his stuff sounds fantastic. definitely gonna look into that one.


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## Maestro1972 (Sep 6, 2015)

tack said:


> A delay _after_ VSS2? Given VSS2 adds early reflections and does the instrument positioning, I'd have thought a delay after this point would sound very unnatural. Will have to experiment with that idea.


I like the Sample Modeling Brass which we all know are very dry. I use VSS2 for positioning and just a smidgen of delay ads a little of width.


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## tack (Sep 6, 2015)

Maestro1972 said:


> I like the Sample Modeling Brass which we all know are very dry. I use VSS2 for positioning and just a smidgen of delay ads a little of width.


But I thought what delay accomplishes is to simulate early reflections, which VSS2 adds in already?


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## rayinstirling (Sep 6, 2015)

Before going crazy with the icing on your cake tell us, how do you monitor your mix? Are you getting the best reference on playback to your ears by whatever means you have at your disposal? I don't mean spending a fortune on a new monitoring system but just, the one you have is setup the best it can be. Only then can you dabble with widening or narrowing effects in the certain knowledge it probably will work in most listening situations.


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## dannymc (Sep 6, 2015)

> Before going crazy with the icing on your cake tell us, how do you monitor your mix? Are you getting the best reference on playback to your ears by whatever means you have at your disposal? I don't mean spending a fortune on a new monitoring system but just, the one you have is setup the best it can be. Only then can you dabble with widening or narrowing effects in the certain knowledge it probably will work in most listening situations.



hi rayinstirling, at the moment i only have the option of doing final mix downs using headphones, Sennheisers HD600's. then i use a mixture of different sound sources for referencing such as HD219s, small sony earbuds, car stereo, mp3 player, and just taking notes on each and making the relevant adjusts so its sounds good on all sources. i know this is not ideal but without monitors it helps me get the best results i can. i guess you're gonna suggest i'd be wasting my cash on this stuff without getting a set of good monitors & room treatment first right?


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## Maestro1972 (Sep 6, 2015)

tack said:


> But I thought what delay accomplishes is to simulate early reflections, which VSS2 adds in already?


I believe what you are saying is correct. Mind you that I am really out of my league when it comes to ALL of this. By trial and error I have found that I can set my brass back easily with spaces and vss2. But adding the delay (12.2 ms) gives me a little more room without upsetting the placement or sound quality. It works for me.


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## rayinstirling (Sep 6, 2015)

Danny,
You'll get 101 differing answers to the optimum monitoring setup here in VI but, I only know what works for me in my room with my resources.
I only use headphones for checking how things will sound on headphones but I know lots of folks who don't have the accommodating family or neighbors willing to put up with the noise (especially when we go over the same few bars a hundred times ) coming from our music/studio rooms. We've just got to make the best of it. I suppose you've just got to train your ears on the best examples of pro tracks similar to the music you wish to create through whatever system you have and eventually be able to get near matching that sound.
Yes, I know that isn't necessarily very helpful but, there are no magic pills. At least, not until you've mastered the everyday pills. I found that out the expensive way.

Ray


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## dannymc (Sep 6, 2015)

rayinstirling,

to be honest the more final productions/compositions i listen too from those who swear by good monitors and the more i continue to struggle with achieving a sound i'm happy with from headphones alone, i have to say i'm coming around to the conclusion that good studio monitors are invaluable in achieving the sound i want. granted i'm not doing this very long, but i've good enough ears to know what sounds big and clean and what sounds muddy and distorted. i think i'm going to start looking into listening to different sets of monitors in speaker shops and look into purchasing my first set that my ear likes the sound of. thanks for the advice.


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## rayinstirling (Sep 6, 2015)

Danny,
You're not going to know in the shop what a set of speakers will sound like in your room until they are there. Then when you have them in the room finding a position relative to each other and to your listening position where you say, Hey! that sounds just great (relatively speaking). It may be an equilateral triangle and then again it may not but there will be within a reasonable amount of choices somewhere available in that room that just works. In a perfect world you would build a room of the optimum shape and size and treatment and speaker array and, and, and, but, I'm in MY real world where making the best of my situation is all I need.

Ray


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## KEnK (Sep 6, 2015)

Explore Mid/Side processing.
Voxengo, Waves, Brainworx and more have excellent plugs for this.
Also check out the Maag Eq for "Air"- very beautiful sound.

k


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## dannymc (Sep 6, 2015)

hey Kenk yes also another plugin that jumped right out at me. watched the pro tools expert video on you-tube. lovely air in it.


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## AR (Sep 6, 2015)

Getting "air" in your orchestral mix is not that difficult. All you need is an Eq, stereoEnhancer, Stereodelay and in some cases a Virtual Stage plugin. 
Take for example a Violin section. Let's say CS 2. Everything sampled at right place. But played without any processing it still sounds muddy. So what we need to do. First. cut off the lows to a point were it starts to sound thin but you still have a beautiful section sound. That would be around 500Hz. But that depends on composition, etc. Second. Take a stereoEnhancer (intern Cubase plugin is even okay) and make the section smaller. Let's say 80% max. Third. Take a panner plugin and pan the section to the left. You can go that far left so the signal comes only from your left speaker. (I personally use the Waves Manager 5.1 on a stereo output at step 2 and 3, which is more elegant and has more in depth functions). Forth. Take a simple StereoDelay, turn the right side off by turning the right Mix knob to 0%. Turn your left Mix knob to 15-45%. You'll see later how many percentage you like the most. Now pan your left Delay section to the right. In other words...All signal that comes from your left speaker will have now a delayed attack on your right speaker. Now turn down the delay to a minimum so you'll hear it just like an small echo on your right speaker. Set time to your likes (I prefer 16ths or 32ths. If you compose in 12/8 try 16ths triplets). Fifth. If you like your violins more in the back don't just go and load in VSS or the likes. Try first to roll down the highest a little bit with your EQ. Just -2db. See for yourself if it starts to sound muddy and not shining. My real life experience as a conductor. The further back it is on stage the less HiFreq you hear. Enigneers help out by mixing in close mics. I personally don't like close mics. I like it breathy and wavey. 
So back to 3D positioning. Sometimes it helps to have a plugin like VSS 2. Sometimes it can get you all wrong. Plugins like TwinTube can make your sound shine. 
In this example I used CS 2 which comes already with Ambient mics. You can mix Stage and Ambient mics to your likes until you find your balance on the 3D stage. It's the easiest and most natural way to get you "air". (Sometimes Ambient mics need some Hishelve up.) Don't forget: Ambient mics have less width than Decca/Stage. You'll need harder panning and decreasing stereoenhancement. 
Best - AR -


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## dannymc (Sep 7, 2015)

AR,
thanks for all of this. it should be a great help to me with my future compositions  btw what would be a good virtual stage plugin? i'm a logic pro user.


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## tmm (Sep 9, 2015)

For me, I get a lot of my width and space from my mix, instrument choice, and EQ / filtering on those instruments to make sure they're only taking up the space I want them to. I actually use FilterFreak 2 as a subtractive parametric EQ pretty regulary, finding the frequency ranges that define the instrument in the mix, and removing the rest. Mix knob to taste. Then I get the extra 2-3% width from some very mild M/S processing ala BX_Saturator v2 and BX_XL v2.


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## AR (Sep 10, 2015)

dannymc said:


> AR,
> thanks for all of this. it should be a great help to me with my future compositions  btw what would be a good virtual stage plugin? i'm a logic pro user.


Well, I only use VSS 2 since it's the only plugin I use. There is another older thread here about all the plugins that emulate stages. BUT I find myself often more tending to B2 another great reverb. It has some very very awesome presets for instrument sections and some solo instruments. It gives depth instantly. Unfortunately, 10 instances of B2 can kick your CPU in its guts. Logic had that nice reverb (forgot it name right now) which was recommend, too. Remember, you can emulate stages with predelay of a reverb. Though nothing beats the intuitive interface of VSS 2 by simply moving your signal around the stage. Check out their website. They even have a light version, which is enough imo. I share the opinion by all the other great composers here anyway: If you have wet samples (Spitfire, OrchestralTools, ...you name 'em) you still put a reverb over the top, just to give your music life to it. Some libraries like CineBrass need VSS because they were recorded on a scoring stage. After that you still need some extra "air" by using a good reverb


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## rayinstirling (Sep 10, 2015)

For positioning there is spat
other than that there eq and reverb in varying amounts to taste.
and yes, I have the other choices including MIR, but.....................


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## reddognoyz (Sep 10, 2015)

Read from many forums that these plugs below can help to give that shine and sparkle to a mix:
1) Kush Claraphonic DSP Mk2 (ilok2 required) @ [URL said:


> http://www.thehouseofkush.com/#!plugins/cosa[/URL]



I have the Claraphonic and I use it at the end of my mastering chain. I think it's great for anding presence (and air and sparkle etc.) For tv soundtracks I try for as much leveling as possible as I know the mixing engineer is going to have a full plate and music riding,(except down), will be low on the list of priorities. I use DP's opto compressor emulation(hitting it up to -5db) going into Ozone then the Calariphonic.


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