# Seeking Your Advice About A Possible Scoring Job



## Abdulrahman (Jun 3, 2020)

Hi,

I hope all of you are doing well in these difficult times.

I am a composer based in Kuwait. In our region, the middle east, we don't have a respected company that produces Hollywood films. Most of the work is just very low-budget dramatic TV shows. Nothing too fancy or serious. About 5 years ago, a company was established in Dubai that focuses on CGI and VFX. Throughout the years, they started working on short animated films to develop their skills. The company only has around 50-60 employees. The co-founder of the company wanted so much to invest in Arab talents and hire them. True, he does have employees who've been working on Disney, Pixar, and DreamWorks, but that's only to move their experience from their old workplace into the new one.

Thanks to all their great efforts and the hard work they went through, they managed to take a big step and make the first animated feature film in our region's history. The film went through the same stages as every other Hollywood film. The budget was high and they were proud to release it worldwide. They even raced for the Oscars, but unfortunately, they couldn't make it in time. I even bought the soundtrack album as a way to support them. I couldn't believe it. All this time hoping we could see something like this and finally, it came!

The director (co-founder) is a good man. I try to keep in touch with him from time to time. I sometimes send him my scores when they are recorded live to show him how much-unspotted talents we have in the region. By the time they were working on the film, the director wanted to hire a film composer. Like I made it clear, he wanted so much to let Arab talents shine, but he couldn't find a suitable Arab composer that works with western orchestras or write film-like scores. He auditioned 5 composers actually.

After some time, he had no choice but to hire a foreign composer. He even wanted to get Hans Zimmer on the job, but couldn't due to his busy schedule/price. So, he brought someone who worked with Hans Zimmer. I have to say, the composer he brought made an excellent job of capturing the tone of the film! They recorded a 110-piece orchestra at Abbey Road Studio.

After the film's huge success, now they'res working on a new animated film. The film is still in the production phase and unlikely to be finished this year. That's just my assumption. I've reached out to him and asked him about the new film whether he's directing it also or not. He said he is. Just to point the facts to you guys, we're not friends or that close. He's kind enough to reply to his DMs that's all. As we were talking about his new film, he started asking me: "I remember you are a composer, right?", "Do you live in UAE?", "Do you work with orchestras?" and "Where can I listen to your work?". These are the sort of questions he started asking.

To be honest, I got a bit nervous. I answered all of his questions. He ended the conversation with "Thank you and wish you all the best!".
There was a moment of silence with myself as I've started thinking clearly what could happen next. I wanted to build two scenarios in my head.
First, he rejects me and we're done with it. Fast and straightforward. Second, he's interested in hiring me for the job. Now, the 2nd scenario is the reason I'm asking for your advice.

Let's say that I'm in. Whether I wrote him a demo and he liked it or just wants to invest in a local talent. If I was really asked to score his film, I would be screaming from inside out of excitement. To score an animated feature film where everybody can hear my work + work with Hollywood musicians in a legendary studio. What more could I ask, right?

But I'm a man with a conscience. And this conscience is killing me. Let's review the facts first about me. I'm completely self-taught. I hold a bachelor's degree in computer engineering, so I have nothing to do with music. It started as a hobby because I was so attached to Alen Menken's work on Disney. I'm still learning and just started playing the piano actually like a couple of months ago. Because of the enormous time I spent on my DAW playing with the sample libraries and listening to orchestral scores, I've managed to create a personal understanding of music composition and orchestration. I'm glad I can read score sheets and progressing in my theory book. Due to all that time and effort, I managed to work with Budapest, Prague, Lisbon, London, and Mexico orchestras. If I want to compare myself to other composers in my region, I tried searching but couldn't find any. I know a few composers locally, but they only write classical/eastern music or never even heard about sample libraries before or even wrote Hollywood style music. That is why I became quickly unique in the country and was reached by many. Actually, I have an interview next week about me. These are the facts that I wanted to share about me personally.

Now, about my conscience. I'm telling myself that I'm not fit for this job. I have zero experience in scoring live pictures. I don't have enough musical power to accomplish a task like that. On top of that, I have an issue with myself. I am a perfectionist that means I keep rejecting my own work and only post the ones that I feel are good. This issue sadly slows down my writing process and also makes me insecure about my own work. That is why it is best that I let a real professional handle the work. I was thinking maybe I could ask the director's permission to attend the sessions and learn the process. Also, I wouldn't mind writing small cues as an assistance for the composer if it's possible. I feel like this is the safest way to stay out of trouble and ease my conscience and at the same time, I get to learn about the work little by little instead of swallowing the whole thing.

I just want your honest advice guys about this. Thank you so much for reading the post!


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## Rory (Jun 3, 2020)

I think that you should just tell the producer/director that you want to work on the film. Put together a pitch that tells him why he should get you on the team. Be honest about your experience, because he’s going to find out what it is anyway. Also, know before you begin the discussion what you’re prepared to work for financially.


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## Abdulrahman (Jun 3, 2020)

Rory said:


> I think that you should just tell the producer/director that you want to work on the film. Put together a pitch that tells him why he should get you on the team. Be honest about your experience, because he’s going to find out what it is anyway. Also, know before you begin the discussion what you’re prepared to work for financially.


Thank you.
Of course, being honest is the most important thing in business. That is why I'm here asking for advice. I will tell him that I want to be part of this team in order to learn and also contribute to the project. If his vision was truly to hire locals and harness their skills, that I don't think he would reject me being there. My sole purpose is to understand how film scoring works and the team involved so that I build my knowledge and take full responsibility next time as a lead composer.


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## Daryl (Jun 4, 2020)

Just surround yourself with a good team, including an experienced Music Editor. Then all you have to do is worry about writing the music.


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## Abdulrahman (Jun 4, 2020)

Daryl said:


> Just surround yourself with a good team, including an experienced Music Editor. Then all you have to do is worry about writing the music.


Thanks for encouraging me.

You reminded me of Danny Elfman. I believe the first gig he got was from Tim Burton. He did not work with an orchestra before. At the time he was writing the score for his first film, he was surrounded by a team of professional orchestrators to transform his ideas into real scores. He managed to get a great deal of help to go through his job. 

I'm not saying I should compare myself to Elfman or any other composer. I'm just saying this as a way to remind myself that there were others who faced this situation.

But as I mentioned in my post, would a director risk a big project like this on a composer in his 20's and with music composition as his hobby, not his career?

That's sort of the question that I should be answering. I know I may sound depressing, but I feel like I'm fighting a battle within me. One part of me saying to go take the risks and work on a real film project, and another part of me saying that I should let someone else who's a real film composer to step in. To be honest, I was going to suggest to the director to hire Alan Menken.


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## Beluga (Jun 4, 2020)

You clearly think too much. I know of a very well-known composer who is close friends with a very well-known director and who usually does a music style without any orchestra in it. MIRACULOUSLY he pulled off several perfect orchestral Hollywood scores already. 

/irony_on

How the heck did he do that? 

/irony_off

The question is - are you a close friend?


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## Abdulrahman (Jun 4, 2020)

Beluga said:


> You clearly think too much. I know of a very well-known composer who is close friends with a very well-known director and who usually does a music style without any orchestra in it. MIRACULOUSLY he pulled off several perfect orchestral Hollywood scores already.
> 
> /irony_on
> 
> ...


I see. I'm really sensitive about this, especially if I want the film to shine. Considering the company is rather new in film-making, so I don't want any flaws to be in their film and let them participate against other animation studios in Hollywood.

Nonetheless, I deeply appreciate everyone's support and encouragement!


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## BenG (Jun 4, 2020)

Hey @Abdulrahman!

First and foremost, I really enjoy your music and always loved hearing your live orchestral work! Secondly, good on you for even being considered for a large project with a great production team that values local talent. Just so you know, every composer (and artist) for that matter goes through this 'imposter syndrome' several times and it is normal to be a bit nervous about such an exciting opportunity. 

*1. Write Some Demos!*

I've run into similar situations throughout my career and found it helpful to break down things into small, more manageable parts. If you are worried about whether or not you can score a feature film, why not try composing just an audio demo, scoring a single scene, etc. and see what the director thinks. If he/she likes it, then you know you've got it in you and there is no guesswork. 
*
2. Surround Yourself with Great People*

If you are fortunate enough to have a decent budget, surround yourself with great people who will make your life easier and the final result better. Most film producers can't direct a film, write dialogue, deliver lines, light a scene but they hire amazing artists they know can deliver. Similarly, find a great orchestrator to help with the score, a copyist for the parts, an engineer for mixing, etc. Do you really think Hans Zimmer is copying out his parts himself...? If need be, get a co-composer to support you through your first big project. Everyone gets help and it is completely reasonable for big feature to seek additional support.
*
3. Don't Reject Yourself!*

Some advice I've always found helpful is to not fear failure so much, that you reject yourself before people even have the chance to tell you otherwise. If it's going to be a 'no', let them tell you instead of preemptively shutting yourself down. 

At the end of a day, film composing is a business like any other and if a client asks you for something, you figure it out


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## muk (Jun 5, 2020)

This all sounds bizarre. They can hire Alan Menken, or a mid-20 hobbyist who has never before scored to picture? Huh?

You did everything you can to get to the position you are in now. Keeping in touch with the director, sending him scores to show him that you could score one of his movies. And now that he actually might be giving you a job, you go 'sorry, my bad, I am not able to'. If you think that, why did you do all the hustling before?

Look, it's not your decision to make who they hire as the composer for the movie. If you are open about who you are and your cv as a composer, it's then their decision to make. They will decide based on what they think is best for their movie. If they think you are the best man for the job, maybe you should too? Or at least stop worrying, it's their choice to make, not yours. You can be sure that if they think you won't be able to deliver the music they need on time, they won't hire you. If you've been honest about your relative inexperience and they still want you for the job, then be thankful for the unique chance you are getting.

In any case, if they hire you, you will need loads of help. As Daryl wrote, an experienced team will be key. Start thinking about who you could hire for the gig. If you have an experienced team that you trust, it'll hopefully give you the confidence you need.


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## Mattia Chiappa (Jun 5, 2020)

From all my past work experiences, not necessarily music related, I don't think I ever felt like I was prepared for a job. I can very much relate to this sentiment. I've been struggling with impostor syndrome and self doubt to this day, but sometimes you just have to jump in and do the job. Don't let your fears slow down your ambition, you'll figure it out on the way. Having a formal education won't keep you from making mistakes or prepare you from the difficulties you'll encounter.


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## coppi (Jun 5, 2020)

man this kind of opportunity is not going to happen twice so grab it if you can (by the way is it a proper opportunity or a casual chat with a director?). everybody was inexperienced on their first time, and if it is a big production you will have assistants for the heavy job (ie you are not going to compose AND choose libraries for mockp AND orchestrate AND mess with the modwheel AND mix AND choose the right compressor AND doing mastering etc) you will have assistants that only do those single jobs. You might even end up being one of those assistants, and only have to take care of the hardware power supply, but you will learn a lot while you do it. nobody has ever gained a job in the entertainment industry by telling the employer they are not able to do this and that. hollywood HR depts are submerged with CVs of self-entitled young Mozarts and they are used to it. your director will read your honest, yet highlighted where it needs to be CV and listen to your demos and will have all the elements to take a decision. and you might be his b plan in case he has to cut some expenses, or might consider you for an assistant role. good luck and let us know how is it going!


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## Abdulrahman (Jun 5, 2020)

Thank you so much everyone for your warm and kind support. I simply can't tell you how much I appreciate what you said.


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## muk (Jun 5, 2020)

Good luck! I hope you get the job. And if you do I am sure it will be a great decision for both, the director and you.


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## GNP (Jun 5, 2020)

Abdulrahman said:


> Now, about my conscience. I'm telling myself that I'm not fit for this job. I have zero experience in scoring live pictures. I don't have enough musical power to accomplish a task like that. On top of that, I have an issue with myself. I am a perfectionist that means I keep rejecting my own work and only post the ones that I feel are good. This issue sadly slows down my writing process and also makes me insecure about my own work. That is why it is best that I let a real professional handle the work. I was thinking maybe I could ask the director's permission to attend the sessions and learn the process. Also, I wouldn't mind writing small cues as an assistance for the composer if it's possible. I feel like this is the safest way to stay out of trouble and ease my conscience and at the same time, I get to learn about the work little by little instead of swallowing the whole thing.
> 
> I just want your honest advice guys about this. Thank you so much for reading the post!



If having to undertake such a huge task seems daunting for you, perhaps you could pull in collaborators, and make sure the producer has enough to pay you and your collabs. 

There is nothing wrong with being a perfectionist, but at the same time, you'll need to learn when is a good time to let go. There will be many times when what you write doesn't work for the director. You'll have to deal with such, and learn to communicate to non-music people about why they feel whatever isn't working.

Otherwise, I say just jump in and do it. *You'll never know how you'll make it until you've made it. Treat this as a learning experience as well.*

All the best man.


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## Terry93D (Jun 5, 2020)

Abdulrahman said:


> ~snip



My nr. one piece of advice would be the same piece of advice that I struggle to internalize, over and over again, whether as a composer or as a writer: _don't self-reject_. I realize everyone else has said it too, but it's wisdom worth repeating.


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## Abdulrahman (Jun 5, 2020)

Thank you guys so much honestly I'm just blushing and embarrassed at the same time for your kind and warm support. I always thought I was the only person in the world facing this kind of issue and insecurity. I just can't express my gratitude.

In fact, as I was reading your encouragement to me, I was working on a fantasy/epic score and your support really pushed me and gave me ideas to move forward in the piece. Unfortunately, the load was too heavy on the PC that my session crashed. Although I have 32GB of RAM, it seems not enough to handle the intense chor. Nonetheless, I've managed to export medium-quality audio of the work, but still not complete


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## babylonwaves (Jun 5, 2020)

@Abdulrahman

Don't worry about the 32GB. John Powell said somewhen that when he started to work on the Italian Job, and it was clear from the beginning that there was not much money for a big orchestra. So he improvised and did a score, which is minimal in some respect. This score changed a lot for many composers. It was one of those scores you were hearing as temp music a lot. It's you ideas and how they work with the picture. You can't compete with somebody having 10 slave PCs as in sound design but you can always deliver something that just works better. At the end of the day, it is your style what people buy or deny.

good luck, I'm sure you'll get there!


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## Abdulrahman (Jun 5, 2020)

babylonwaves said:


> @Abdulrahman
> 
> Don't worry about the 32GB. John Powell said somewhen that when he started to work on the Italian Job, and it was clear from the beginning that there was not much money for a big orchestra. So he improvised and did a score, which is minimal in some respect. This score changed a lot for many composers. It was one of those scores you were hearing as temp music a lot. It's you ideas and how they work with the picture. You can't compete with somebody having 10 slave PCs as in sound design but you can always deliver something that just works better. At the end of the day, it is your style what people buy or deny.
> 
> good luck, I'm sure you'll get there!


Exactly! One of my biggest fears is that whenever I want to work on something massive and make it as realistic as possible with multiple layers of sample libraries and plug-ins, the load gets extremely heavy and everything starts slowing own. As a result, it slows down my process to the point that I can't keep writing further. When it comes to the world of film scoring, I always thought I would have to deliver every cue completed %100 to the director. That may be possible when I have a supercomputer. Otherwise, I just have to write the main idea I'm trying to serve the picture and let the detailed orchestration be handled later when preparing the score for the live orchestra.


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## babylonwaves (Jun 5, 2020)

Abdulrahman said:


> Exactly! One of my biggest fears is that whenever I want to work on something massive and make it as realistic as possible with multiple layers of sample libraries and plug-ins, the load gets extremely heavy and everything starts slowing own. As a result, it slows down my process to the point that I can't keep writing further. When it comes to the world of film scoring, I always thought I would have to deliver every cue completed %100 to the director. That may be possible when I have a supercomputer. Otherwise, I just have to write the main idea I'm trying to serve the picture and let the detailed orchestration be handled later when preparing the score for the live orchestra.



This is something I did in 2012 for a car show in Davos on a 50x8m screen. With a Mac Pro 2008 and no time to really compose. I'm not saying that this is a great mix or a great piece of music but everybody way happy in the end and I had no RAM as well ...


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## RonOrchComp (Jun 5, 2020)

Hi abd, and good on you for making a go at this.
_
He ended the conversation with "Thank you and wish you all the best!"._

That tells me that you are not in consideration, and that he is looking elsewhere. Once directors get a taste of A-list Hollywood talent scoring their feature, they almost never want to hire someone with little nothing but_ very low-budget dramatic TV shows_ on their resume. It's sort of like going from Filet Mignon to Top Round. 

There is something alot of people don't realize. It's not so much about the music - it's about getting the job done. Known quantaties in Hollywood who write decent music are going to get hired before unknown quantaties who write incredible music any day of the week. 

Good luck!


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## Abdulrahman (Jun 6, 2020)

RonOrchComp said:


> Hi abd, and good on you for making a go at this.
> 
> _He ended the conversation with "Thank you and wish you all the best!"._
> 
> ...


Yes, you are right. This is what I was trying to say. If they have the budget to hire an experienced film composer, why then risk your project with someone fresh and new to this business. Especially, if that project is a regional production and you want to get the right people to do it justice. That is why I felt it is important to tell you the background of film production in our region so you can an idea of what I'm trying to say before we judge anything. Actually, the composer they hired for their previous film was Atli Örvarsson. Is he considered an A-list or B-list composer?


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## Abdulrahman (Jun 6, 2020)

babylonwaves said:


> This is something I did in 2012 for a car show in Davos on a 50x8m screen. With a Mac Pro 2008 and no time to really compose. I'm not saying that this is a great mix or a great piece of music but everybody way happy in the end and I had no RAM as well ...



That's really good! Good job


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