# Famous Vintage Synths Question



## zepking (Apr 11, 2022)

In Arturia Collection, most of the synths have a bank selection where you can select Bass, Strings, Lead, etc...do most of these classic synths have those banks on the real hardware? Or are those just provided for the Arturia plugin?


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## doctoremmet (Apr 11, 2022)

Those are mostly Arturia specific banks. A lot of the hardware they emulate did not even have presets as they did not have digital memory back then. A Minimoog for instance just made the sound you’d dial in with the knobs. DX7, Emulator II etc, ofcourse did come with presets but not that many. If you wanted to use other sounds you had to either program the synth yourself or buy expensive ROM cartridges (DX) or buy sample libraries (on series of floppy disks) for example.


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## zepking (Apr 11, 2022)

So, on the synths that don't have any presets, like the Minimoog...when you choose a bass preset from the Arturia plugin....then switch to a lead sound.... literally the only thing changing are the dials, knobs and faders and button selections on the synth?


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## doctoremmet (Apr 11, 2022)

I am not sure I am following you? I was talking about a real heardware Mini not having any presets. The Arturia one of course does.

If you change the preset on the Arturia emulation, yes - the knobs and buttons settings on the “front panel” of the synth are what constitutes “a patch” or in other words “make the sound”. Some UIs have a couple of extra “hidden” panels with additional settings for FX, which of course are not built in in most emulated synths, and certainly not in a Mini.

Does that answer your question? In old 1970s and 1980s keyboard magazines they’d sometimes even publish graphical representations of “synth front panel knob settings” so people could dial in certain sounds or patches.


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## zepking (Apr 11, 2022)

Yeah, that answers my question. I should have asked it a different way...
So you can basically get every bass, lead, etc sound on the Arturia plugin for the Minimoog,for instance, just by adjusting all the knobs, sliders, etc on the front panel in the plugin.

So on the synths that did have presets like the dx7, if someone is trying to show you how to make a famous song sound....they would need to tell you which preset sound(specific bass, lead,etc) AND settings of knobs/sliders etc they're using


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## Marcus Millfield (Apr 11, 2022)

zepking said:


> So on the synths that did have presets like the dx7, if someone is trying to show you how to make a famous song sound....they would need to tell you which preset sound(specific bass, lead,etc) AND settings of knobs/sliders etc they're using


That can be, but you can also dial in your own sounds by programming them in and saving it, without using the presets at all. At least on the DX7.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 11, 2022)

zepking said:


> Yeah, that answers my question. I should have asked it a different way...
> So you can basically get every bass, lead, etc sound on the Arturia plugin for the Minimoog,for instance, just by adjusting all the knobs, sliders, etc on the front panel in the plugin.
> 
> So on the synths that did have presets like the dx7, if someone is trying to show you how to make a famous song sound....they would need to tell you which preset sound(specific bass, lead,etc) AND settings of knobs/sliders etc they're using


Erm huh? Basically all the settings of the parameters of a synth combined ARE what is called a preset, or a program, or a patch. You can start from scratch, a so called INIT patch (“initialized” patch that does sound rather bland, a bunch of sine waves really) and then dial in settings that you like. When you’re done you save the results in a “memory” and that’s called a preset.

Any sound is made that way on a DX7. So there is no need to first load a specific existing preset / sound and tweak that. 

The same is true for basically any other synthesizer, whether it’s a classic hardware synth (with or without presets stored in memory) or modern software synths.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 11, 2022)

zepking said:


> AND settings of knobs/sliders etc they're using


So there really is no “AND”. A sound is just whatever the parameter settings make it to be.

Technically, a real DX7 did not even have dedicated knobs and sliders for each parameter, so you had to “choose” a parameter from a menu on a 2 line 16 character LCD screen (not even backlit!) and then enter a value with + and - buttons or the “data slider”. Those were the days! Hehe

The Arturia DX7, to be clear, has its own UI which is WAY more userfriendly


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## tressie5 (Apr 11, 2022)

...and a pox on the houses of devs who release synths without init patches!


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## doctoremmet (Apr 11, 2022)

zepking said:


> So you can basically get every bass, lead, etc sound on the Arturia plugin for the Minimoog,for instance, just by adjusting all the knobs, sliders, etc on the front panel in the plugin.


Yes!

This is a huge difference between sample libraries of a synth, like Soundpaint’s DX7, that “only” contain specific recordings of that synth, versus an emulated or modelled version, such as the Arturia and Cherry Audio synths, that can basically make ANY synth sound the original hardware was capable of making.

Sampled synths are for instance done by UVI and IK Multimedia’s Syntronik. In those instruments, cool as they may sound, the basic waveforms, the building blocks of each sound, are “fixed” because they are recordings. So sample based versions of old synths can NOT emulate any preset by “setting knob values”.

Because the DX7 was originally a digital synth with MIDI, all the thousands and thousands of programs developed for it over the course of decades are stored in so called MIDI sysex data and available online. The Arturia DX can actually import that. Which is kind of a neat feature.


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## José Herring (Apr 11, 2022)

zepking said:


> Yeah, that answers my question. I should have asked it a different way...
> So you can basically get every bass, lead, etc sound on the Arturia plugin for the Minimoog,for instance, just by adjusting all the knobs, sliders, etc on the front panel in the plugin.
> 
> So on the synths that did have presets like the dx7, if someone is trying to show you how to make a famous song sound....they would need to tell you which preset sound(specific bass, lead,etc) AND settings of knobs/sliders etc they're using


It is important the learn the basics of the common types of synthesis.

Basically, the Moog is subtractive analog synth. It creates the sound by generating different types of waves, analog, then the filter, modulators and envelopes sculpts the sound you want. Analog synths were primarily the first synths that came in mostly the late 60's and 70's.

With the advent of readily available micro chips in the late 70's. Digital synths started to come into being (late 70's early 80's). Several types of digital synths but the main ones back then were analog style synths that used digitally generated traditional waves (mostly mid to late 80's and 90's) and FM synthesis ala Dx7. In each of these synths the sound is generated and controlled by the knobs and sliders and modulators and back panel programming (Dx7). The FM synthesis can modulate as well a sin wave called a carrier wave with other sin waves called modulators (I think I got that right).

In the 90's and beyond due to computers coming into being (late 80's, 90's +) Then Rom based synths started to come into play. Rom synths use micro chips and start with some sort of sample and then use various methods some under the hood some with knobs and sliders to control and alter the sound. These types of synths rely heavily on presets and it's not sometimes really well advertised what samples they use and how the different types of synth engines manipulate the sound. Though if you read the manuals you can learn a lot. Like the Korg M1 I believe starts with a sample sound then uses synthesis to create the sustain part of the sound ect...Pretty clever stuff really. But, I'm not sure because I haven't been that interested in learning obscure synthesis.

Long way of saying that yes for a synth like the minimoog every sound is generated from the knobs. No presets on the original because they had no computer memory. The memorymoog changed that later I think using cartridges. In the DX7 every sound is generated by the buttons, sliders and the modulation of the carrier wave. You can store presets in memory but you can generate every sound on the Dx7 with your own hands and programming because it isn't sample based. For a lot of sample based synths like the M1 or Triton or Roland D50, ect there's a combination of preprogramming and knob tweaking on on these types of synths, one becomes more of a present tweeker than a patch maker so the presents are very important. They were kind of the first sample playback synths in a box.

The outlier is the PPG wavetable type synths. Digital osc called wave tables stored on 5 inch floppy disk. This today is way more popular style of synthesis than it ever was in the 70's. Another granddaddy of synths was the Synclavier which combined sampler and FM synthesiser (it could do both), cool machine that cost like $250,000 base price in the 80's when that was a lot of money. And my personal favorite, the best analog synth of all time, the Yamaha CS80 which managed to have preset storage even on an analog beast.

So what I would suggest is to just read about each synth that your Arturia collection is trying to emulate. What made it unique and what type of synthesis was used. I'm a big fan of the book Vintage Synths by Mark Vail. Gives you an understanding of the creative ways the various fathers of synth used their creative ingenuity to create some kick ass instruments.


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## José Herring (Apr 11, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Yes!
> 
> This is a huge difference between sample libraries of a synth, like Soundpaint’s DX7, that “only” contain specific recordings of that synth, versus an emulated or modelled version, such as the Arturia and Cherry Audio synths, that can basically make ANY synth sound the original hardware was capable of making.
> 
> ...


I love that you know so much about this type of synth. I never really had one and I missed out on those days.


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## zepking (Apr 11, 2022)

Thank you for all the info!
I'm also watching this video which has been helpful as well.

If I'm understanding this right, every sound on a synth at some point in time started out by an oscillator. As a sin, saw, square, triangle or noise wave. That's the origin of the sound, unless it was sampled. Or sometimes multiple oscillators combined to give you a combination of any of the five waves. Then they "do stuff to it"... LFO, frequency, etc.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 11, 2022)

zepking said:


> Thank you for all the info!
> I'm also watching this video which has been helpful as well.
> 
> If I'm understanding this right, every sound on a synth at some point in time started out by an oscillator. As a sin, saw, square, triangle or noise wave. That's the origin of the sound, unless it was sampled. Or sometimes multiple oscillators combined to give you a combination of any of the five waves. Then they "do stuff to it"... LFO, frequency, etc.



Correct


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## José Herring (Apr 11, 2022)

zepking said:


> Thank you for all the info!
> I'm also watching this video which has been helpful as well.
> 
> If I'm understanding this right, every sound on a synth at some point in time started out by an oscillator. As a sin, saw, square, triangle or noise wave. That's the origin of the sound, unless it was sampled. Or sometimes multiple oscillators combined to give you a combination of any of the five waves. Then they "do stuff to it"... LFO, frequency, etc.



Basics yes. I find it easier to think of sound sources and sound modulators. Sound sources like Osc generate the tones and pitches and sounds. The modulators effect the sound in some way. These are usually filters, envelopes and LFO. Modulators can include other full osc like in audio rate modulation or additional waves like in FM synthesis or wave folders like in Westcoast Buchla synths.


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## Zero&One (Apr 12, 2022)

zepking said:


> So on the synths that did have presets like the dx7, if someone is trying to show you how to make a famous song sound....they would need to tell you which preset sound


Many, almost all, famous tunes use presets back in the day. Hence the popularity and insane prices of those synths these days. Although most synths can make those sounds… using OG Patch 087 has something magical about it 🙂


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## EvilDragon (Apr 12, 2022)

José Herring said:


> And my personal favorite, the best analog synth of all time, the Yamaha CS80 which managed to have preset storage even on an analog beast.


That preset memory was really very fickle... And it wasn't memory of the whole synth state, but just the voice lines. No presets for ring modulator and other stuff...

While CS80 was definitely an achievement, I don't really feel it was the best analog synth of all time. If we're going by the hugeness of the sound, this title would belong to the Oberheim Eight Voice IMO. But that thing was so tedious to tweak! If we're going by features + capability + convenience of patch memory, this title should probably go to either Jupiter 8 or Octave Voyetra.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 12, 2022)

Yamaha DX7 SYSEX


This site is dedicated to the synthesizer Yamaha DX7, you will find numerous sounds in the sysex format gleaned on Web and in attics, informations and alternatives to find the sound of the 80's years. Yamaha DX7 FM synthesis-based digital synthesizer and electronic keyboard manufactured by the...




dxsysex.com





For those looking for a fun (free) way to enjoy a DX7:









Dexed (Synth FM) • Audio Plugins for Free


"Dexed is a multi platform, multi format plugin synth that is closely modeled on the Yamaha DX7. Under the hood it uses music-synthesizer-for-android for




www.audiopluginsforfree.com


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## doctoremmet (Apr 12, 2022)

How magazines used to publish patches for a digital synth back in 1987:


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## José Herring (Apr 12, 2022)

EvilDragon said:


> That preset memory was really very fickle... And it wasn't memory of the whole synth state, but just the voice lines. No presets for ring modulator and other stuff...
> 
> While CS80 was definitely an achievement, I don't really feel it was the best analog synth of all time. If we're going by the hugeness of the sound, this title would belong to the Oberheim Eight Voice IMO. But that thing was so tedious to tweak! If we're going by features + capability + convenience of patch memory, this title should probably go to either Jupiter 8 or Octave Voyetra.


Oh the equation is simple. 

Vangelis+CS80=Bladerunner Score ergo BEST SYNTH OF ALL TIME

While New Wave artist were learning how to make basslines and pads with their Oberheims, Vangelis create a magnum opus masterwork.


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## EvilDragon (Apr 12, 2022)

Heh. There's more than CS80 on that soundtrack.


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## lux (Apr 12, 2022)

Having a DX7 was like "hey, Its got an edit panel, cool. Lemme mess with it. Fart, fart again, almost farty sound, earpain siren. Ok, back to presets."


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## Zero&One (Apr 12, 2022)

EvilDragon said:


> Heh. There's more than CS80 on that soundtrack.


It’s a tad integral to the soundtrack though. Removing it would be like removing Hetfields voice from Metallica.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 12, 2022)

lux said:


> Having a DX7 was like "hey, Its got an edit panel, cool. Lemme mess with it. Fart, fart again, almost farty sound, earpain siren. Ok, back to presets."


The first week? Yes. But in 1986 a little 4 operator DX7 derivative was all 14 yo Temme (and his parents!) could afford. So eventually I became rather good at actually dialing in sounds “from ear”, thinking about what algo’s could do what, emulating filter sweeps etc. Of course it still mostly sounded like farts, because the thing didn’t come with built in reverb, so the full bare naked digital aliasing was kind of in your face all the time hehe. But there were FM programmers out there!


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## doctoremmet (Apr 12, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Oh the equation is simple.
> 
> Vangelis+CS80=Bladerunner Score ergo BEST SYNTH OF ALL TIME
> 
> While New Wave artist were learning how to make basslines and pads with their Oberheims, Vangelis create a magnum opus masterwork.


New wave artists with an OB-X and a Prophet 5 made this in 1981:



The synth programming on this song is only rivalled by the exquisite fretless bass playing  - brilliant sounds, and way more complex than “mere presets”. Totally original soundscapes that sound cutting edge 41 years later. The entire album (Tin Drum) is filled to the brim with the stuff. Highly influential on little 14 yo me!


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## lux (Apr 12, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> The first week? Yes. But in 1986 a little 4 operator DX7 derivative was all 14 yo Temme (and his parents!) could afford.


yeah, same here, I carried mine walking for a couple miles every sunday to go playing with guys, it was fun. Although I never went over that first week on edit panel.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 12, 2022)

The percussive sounds they were able to get from those early poly-synths to this day blow my mind:





^ when this was a demo video for BT Ghosts this forum would explode 😂


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## Kent (Apr 12, 2022)

the whole reason we even call presets 'patches' today (even for synthless sampled/scripted virtual instruments!) is because the original preset-less synths of old used telephone switchboard patching cables to route from one module to the other (which is still what happens in modulars now). 

it was literally a 'patch'!

but now...









(in all realness, I *love* presets. Where would music be without them??)


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## Kent (Apr 12, 2022)

(oops, see next post)


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## Kent (Apr 12, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Does that answer your question? In old 1970s and 1980s keyboard magazines they’d sometimes even publish graphical representations of “synth front panel knob settings” so people could dial in certain sounds or patches.


it's also my recommended way to learn synthesis:

1. lock yourself in a room with a synth and a stack of blank line-art diagrams of that synth.

2. have a goal in mind: 'seagulls flying away' 'rhapsody in blue clarinet' 'cat in heat'

3. mess around on the synth until you figure out something that sounds like that goal

4. diagram it on one of the sheets

6. GOTO #2

...

n. come back another day and, as much as possible without looking at your diagrams, try to recreate each one from memory. do this over days until you don't need to use those diagrams.


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## ed buller (Apr 12, 2022)

Years ago I was working at Britannia Row Studios which was owned by PINK FLOYD. Flood and I rented a room upstairs where we played with our synths. One of the techs there told me a funny story, I suspect it's true. When pink floyd where touring Rick Wright had several Minimoog's with the pots glued down so they always sounded the same. Those where his presets !

best

e


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## doctoremmet (Apr 12, 2022)

ed buller said:


> Flood and I rented a room upstairs where we played with our synths.


OMG! I now have to call you Sir Ed, Ed. This has to be the coolest sentence I've ever read on here.


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## EvilDragon (Apr 12, 2022)

Zero&One said:


> It’s a tad integral to the soundtrack though. Removing it would be like removing Hetfields voice from Metallica.


The way Vangelis played it is integral. Lexicon 224 was as integral to that soundtrack, tbh, maybe even more than CS80. Had you fed another good sounding and flexible analog synth into the same Lex 224, you wouldn't be way out of the ballpark.


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## Zero&One (Apr 12, 2022)

EvilDragon said:


> The way Vangelis played it is integral. Lexicon 224 was as integral to that soundtrack, tbh, maybe even more than CS80. Had you fed another good sounding and flexible analog synth into the same Lex 224, you wouldn't be way out of the ballpark.


Even though Vangelis said it was the greatest synth ever made…


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## EvilDragon (Apr 12, 2022)

Sure, that's just, like, his opinion, man. Poly aftertouch plays a huge role in getting his expression out. I bet he'd be just as happy with a Hydrasynth, probably even more because synthesis-wise it's a ton more powerful.


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## Zero&One (Apr 12, 2022)

Kent said:


> it's also my recommended way to learn synthesis:


Very good. 
I also found early on, that making every drum kit piece on 1 synth teaches you loads about synthesis and the actual synths capability. It removes the reliance of fx and strengthens knowledge on ADSR and envelopes etc. And you end up with some dope kicks & snare samples.


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## EvilDragon (Apr 12, 2022)

Absolutely!


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## Double Helix (Apr 12, 2022)

EvilDragon said:


> . . . I bet he'd be just as happy with a Hydrasynth, probably even more because synthesis-wise it's a ton more powerful.


This makes me want to check out Hydrasynth a bit more closely Piques my interest. .


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## ed buller (Apr 12, 2022)

EvilDragon said:


> Sure, that's just, like, his opinion, man. Poly aftertouch plays a huge role in getting his expression out. I bet he'd be just as happy with a Hydrasynth, probably even more because synthesis-wise it's a ton more powerful.


does HYDRASYNTH have full assignable POLYPHONIC aftertouch ???

best

e


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## EvilDragon (Apr 12, 2022)

Yes!


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## ed buller (Apr 12, 2022)

EvilDragon said:


> Yes!


om my word!


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## zepking (Apr 12, 2022)

This video blew my mind.


If I understand this correctly, every sound (flute, my voice, your voice, trumpet, guitar, etc) is simply made up of a bunch of sine waves. And if you had the right "recipe" any machine that could produce multiple sine waves could perfectly reproduce the timbre of any sound.


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## Pier (Apr 12, 2022)

Kent said:


> it's also my recommended way to learn synthesis:
> 
> 1. lock yourself in a room with a synth and a stack of blank line-art diagrams of that synth.
> 
> ...


How I learned synthesis was to get Zebra and then make a blood pact with god (sacrificing a goat and everything) that I would never ever use someone else's presets anymore. It's been 12 years since that moment.

It might sound dramatic but I had been a preset surfer for many years before that. Probably one of the biggest mistakes in my sound/music adventure. Oh well, better late than never


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## Pier (Apr 12, 2022)

zepking said:


> If I understand this correctly, every sound (flute, my voice, your voice, trumpet, guitar, etc) is simply made up of a bunch of sine waves. And if you had the right "recipe" any machine that could produce multiple sine waves could perfectly reproduce any sound.


Yes and that's called additive synthesis.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 12, 2022)




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## zepking (Apr 12, 2022)

Pier said:


> How I learned synthesis was to get Zebra and then make a blood pact with god (sacrificing a goat and everything) that I would never ever use someone else's presets anymore. It's been 12 years since that moment.
> 
> It might sound dramatic but I had been a preset surfer for many years before that. Probably one of the biggest mistakes in my sound/music adventure. Oh well, better late than neve





doctoremmet said:


>



Conclusion: AI deep learning of sine recipes will eventually make sampling irrelevant 🖖


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## doctoremmet (Apr 12, 2022)

zepking said:


> Conclusion: AI deep learning of sine recipes will eventually make sampling irrelevant 🖖


We’ll see. There’s also physics, movement of sound through a room, idiosyncracies of human players, psychoacoustics.

Deep learn all you want but last time I checked Siri, Alexa and Bixby were all still dumb, stupid and useless  - as soon as that changes, I’ll have another look at the next doomsday article about AIs composing music and putting sine waves together to make beautiful and musically interesting sounds.

Anyway. Next up on your journey: a synthesis type called Physical Modelling. My current favourite (next to FM for historic reasons). Here’s a cool thread:






Favorite Physical Modeling VSTi in 2021?


Afternoon lads, I've been delving into the world of granular synthesis of late, trying to discover the 'zen' of what its true musical possibilities are, and it got me wondering if there were any new P.M. offerings out there that have flown under my radar (I'm a big fan of AAS, but have yet to...




vi-control.net





Search strings:
- Yamaha VL1
- modal synthesis
- Audio Modeling SWAM


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## zepking (Apr 12, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> We’ll see. There’s also physics, movement of sound through a room, idiosyncracies of human players, psychoacoustics.
> 
> Deep learn all you want but last time I checked Siri, Alexa and Bixby were all still dumb, stupid and useless  - as soon as that changes, I’ll have another look at the next doomsday article about AIs composing music and putting sine waves together to make beautiful and musically interesting sounds.
> 
> ...


Lol. I agree, I definitely don't think AI is anywhere near that point.
I'll check those terms out. I did listen to Aaron brass. It still doesn't sound 100% authentic to my ears. Sampled Afflatus strings, on the other hand, sound pretty much indistinguishable.
I'm very disappointed to find out the vocoder in the Arturia Collection doesn't work with Studio One 5. I guess I'll need to get cubase for that.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 12, 2022)

zepking said:


> It still doesn't sound 100% authentic to my ears


And that is still sample based. It is highly playable and in a mix it does sound very good. But yes, you do make a valid point


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## Pier (Apr 12, 2022)

zepking said:


> Conclusion: AI deep learning of sine recipes will eventually make sampling irrelevant 🖖


Maybe. At the very least it will reduce the need to sample each and every note/velocity to extract a model.

I'm guessing that's what SoundPaint does. Instead of storing samples, it extracts some model of the deltas (differences) between samples, so then it can introduce slight variations when executing the model in real time. I'm guessing those small variations is what Troels refers to when saying it has an analog soul.

But you don't need AI to extract a pattern from a sample an execute it with an additive oscillator. See this Melda video (the interesting part starts at around 3:40):


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## Double Helix (Apr 12, 2022)

Reading through (most of) this thread reminded me that I'd saved this Reverb article a couple of years ago: Ten Types of Synthesis Explained








10 Types of Synthesis, Explained: FM, Vector, and More


There's a wide world outside of subtractive synthesis. We're taking a look at some synth categories you know and others you may not.




reverb.com


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## ed buller (Apr 12, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> The percussive sounds they were able to get from those early poly-synths to this day blow my mind:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I "borrowed" one of JAPAN's prophet 5's . It was in the shop where I worked for a repair and with the blessing of their tech I took it home for the weekend to my tiny flat in TUFNELL PARK. It had the most amazing sounds in it. Virtually every preset was a gong or bell or log drum or something. You'd have to find the right octave where they came alive. Incredible programming. One of the sounds was kinda plucked. I fiddled with it and made a marimba sound out of it and used it the following week in the studio with the psychedelic furs on their demos for "love My Way" on the third album. I came up with a little riff and they loved it !...unfortunately to save money I wasn't invited to the album recording and Todd Rundgren ended up putting my part on a xylophone ! 

a couple of years later I found myself playing Pictionary round a friends house with Richard Barbieri and thanked him for the prophet...it wasn't his. It was Davids !

best

e


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## doctoremmet (Apr 12, 2022)

ed buller said:


> I "borrowed" one of JAPAN's prophet 5's . It was in the shop where I worked for a repair and with the blessing of their tech I took it home for the weekend to my tiny flat in TUFNELL PARK. It had the most amazing sounds in it. Virtually every preset was a gong or bell or log drum or something. You'd have to find the right octave where they came alive. Incredible programming. One of the sounds was kinda plucked. I fiddled with it and made a marimba sound out of it and used it the following week in the studio with the psychedelic furs on their demos for "love My Way" on the third album. I came up with a little riff and they loved it !...unfortunately to save money I wasn't invited to the album recording and Todd Rundgren ended up putting my part on a xylophone !
> 
> a couple of years later I found myself playing Pictionary round a friends house with Richard Barbieri and thanked him for the prophet...it wasn't his. It was Davids !
> 
> ...


Great synthesist, after Japan he fid amazing stuff on the Prophet VS.

Thanks for a terrific story!


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## ptram (Apr 12, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> I was talking about a real heardware Mini not having any presets.


Oh. Are you saying that those old synths were not compatible with Windows 10?


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## zepking (Apr 13, 2022)

Are sawtooth, square, triangle and noise waves just combinations of sine waves?
So basically, there's just sine waves?
So oscillators ultimately just make sine waves?
Is that correct?


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## Pier (Apr 13, 2022)

zepking said:


> Are sawtooth, square, triangle and noise waves just combinations of sine waves?
> So basically, there's just sine waves?
> So oscillators ultimately just make sine waves?
> Is that correct?


Oscillators can produce any number of waveforms (including sine waves) but any sound can in theory be reduced to sine waves.

And then there are special additive oscillators which create waveforms by generating multiple sine waves at different ratios and volumes (and phases).


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## doctoremmet (Apr 13, 2022)

That is not correct in a practical sense: oscillators in most subtractive synths can create sines, saws, squares etc. directly


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## zepking (Apr 13, 2022)

Pier said:


> And then there are special additive oscillators which create waveforms by generating multiple sine waves at different ratios and volumes (and phases).


If an oscillator can create a saw, triangle, noise or square wave then isn't it technically creating multiple sine waves?


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## doctoremmet (Apr 13, 2022)

Technically: yes. A sawtooth is nothing but infinite sinewaves added together with additive synthesis. Practically, in terms of “let’s use an oscillator on a Minimoog” you just dial in a saw if you need a saw.

So, are we having a semantic discussion about sound or are we having a dialogue about synthesis in musical instruments? 

So Pier is speaking of practical implementations of additive synthesis in real musical instruments.


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## Pier (Apr 13, 2022)

zepking said:


> If an oscillator can create a saw, triangle, noise or square wave then isn't it technically creating multiple sine waves?


That's like saying that your voice (or anything that can generate sound) is creating multiple sine waves which isn't true at all. Or when a speaker is vibrating to produce sound, it's not generating many sine waves, it's producing a single complex waveform.

This is very different from additive synthesis (generating sound with sine waves) or the Fourier transform which is a math function that can decompose a complex signal into sine waves.


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## zepking (Apr 13, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> So, are we having a semantic discussion about sound or are we having a dialogue about synthesis in musical instruments?


Lol. Sorry. I'm just trying to wrap my head around this.


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## zepking (Apr 13, 2022)

Pier said:


> That's like saying that your voice (or anything that can generate sound) is creating multiple sine waves which isn't true at all. Or when a speaker is vibrating to produce sound, it's not generating many sine waves, it's producing a single complex waveform.
> 
> This is very different from additive synthesis (generating sound with sine waves) or the Fourier transform which is a math function that can decompose a complex signal into sine waves.


Ok, now I'm confused again. I finally thought I had a grasp on understanding this and was thinking your voice is made up of a bunch of sine waves. 
Is a wave the same thing as a wave pattern?


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## doctoremmet (Apr 13, 2022)

You need a primer on sound and fourier analysis / math / FT



A sine / cosine is nothing but a mathematical concept here


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## Pier (Apr 13, 2022)

zepking said:


> I finally thought I had a grasp on understanding this and was thinking your voice is made up of a bunch of sine waves.


I'm trying to think of a good metaphor to explain this but I can't come up with anything.

I guess the way you're tying to think about it is like with physical mater. Say like water which is really composed of hydrogen and oxygen atoms. Like you can zoom in and out to see the macro and micro worlds.

But with waveforms just because you can reduce/decompose it into sine waves when doing some math analysis, doesn't mean that it was generated with sine waves to begin with. Like you can splash some water with your hand and produce a complex wave on the surface of the water, but you didn't actually generate some perfect waves to produce it.

Edit:

I realize now I used water on both examples which could be confusing, but this is just purely coincidental.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 13, 2022)

Yes good one! So OP: I think you mistake the “sine waves” with atoms or molecules. But they are not. With sine waves we can write math functions that approximate other waveforms. That’s why we CAN actually use sines to synthesize sounds in additive synthesis, and an understanding of Fourier Transformation. But that is like trying to make gold out of lead. Alchemy hehe. In the real world it is not as if everything that makes sounds, adds up a whole bunch of sinewaves. It is only scientists, like Fourier, coming up with a model to write down a particular waveform in a function.


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## zwhita (Apr 13, 2022)

I owned a 12-bit Jupiter 8 between 2007-2010 with a J.L. Cooper program bank modification, that gave it two additional banks of 64 programs each.
I seem to recall one bank being reserved for orchestral type instruments and the first one was the factory programs. Second one was mostly overwritten, but the previous owner told me it was used during the Pointer Sisters tour in the early 80's, so I assume most of the middle bank was sounds used on that tour.

If there was any so-called third party "library" for the JP-8, I would guess it would be pretty limited, and would have been distributed in cassette form.


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## EvilDragon (Apr 13, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> That is not correct in a practical sense: oscillators in most subtractive synths can create sines, saws, squares etc. directly


Actually, pretty much any analog oscillator does one single waveform (either triangle or a sawtooth), the other shapes you get by waveshaping the core of the oscillator.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 13, 2022)

EvilDragon said:


> Actually, pretty much any analog oscillator does one single waveform (either triangle or a sawtooth), the other shapes you get by waveshaping the core of the oscillator.


Yeah well, you catch my drift hehe 
I’m coming from a user angle here


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## Kent (Apr 13, 2022)

Fun vintage synth fact (I think) of the day: the original Reading Rainbow synth is a Buchla


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## vitocorleone123 (Apr 18, 2022)

Pier said:


> How I learned synthesis was to get Zebra and then make a blood pact with god (sacrificing a goat and everything) that I would never ever use someone else's presets anymore. It's been 12 years since that moment.
> 
> It might sound dramatic but I had been a preset surfer for many years before that. Probably one of the biggest mistakes in my sound/music adventure. Oh well, better late than never


I made a pact with Sequential, instead!

I was slowly getting there with software, rolling my own presets. But it was hardware that connected the dots for me and, in turn, made software a lot easier, too.

I strongly encourage everyone making music with synths to get a hardware synth for learning and then creative inspiration. But go big or go home! Close to a 1:1 analog polysynth is amazing, unless you only ever use digital (but maybe then something different will inspire?), etc.


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## zepking (Apr 20, 2022)

Just learned the ARP 2600 was used by Who on who are you (they plugged in a guitar to get that amazing sound) and used by star wars to make C3PO sounds! (Plugged in microphone to get that).
Mind is blown....but I'm wondering....alot of what makes that synth great is physically interacting with it...and I'm wondering if you could even do either of those things with the Arturia 2600 plugin


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## doctoremmet (Apr 20, 2022)

zepking said:


> Just learned the ARP 2600 was used by Who on who are you (they plugged in a guitar to get that amazing sound) and used by star wars to make C3PO sounds! (Plugged in microphone to get that).
> Mind is blown....but I'm wondering....alot of what makes that synth great is physically interacting with it...and I'm wondering if you could even do either of those things with the Arturia 2600 plugin


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## zepking (Apr 21, 2022)

This is exactly what I was looking for.


Now they just need to add some Depeche Mode, Ah-Ha, Sweet Dreams, pink Floyd, erasure and a few others


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## ed buller (Apr 21, 2022)

Hardware rules:


Best

e


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## doctoremmet (Apr 21, 2022)

zepking said:


> This is exactly what I was looking for.
> 
> 
> Now they just need to add some Depeche Mode, Ah-Ha, Sweet Dreams, pink Floyd, erasure and a few others



Depeche Mode and Pink Floyd soundpacks are sold by Arturia


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## doctoremmet (Apr 21, 2022)

Depeche Mode Speak&Spell Tribute Arturia 2600V Sound Set Demo


All sounds including drums 2600V. Depeche Mode tribute sound set available from Arturia. Patches used: No Disco: DM kick1 DM snare2 NoDisco Seq1 125bpm NoDisco Seq2 125bpm NoDisco Bass2 Puppets Ba




soundcloud.app.goo.gl


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## zepking (Apr 21, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Depeche Mode and Pink Floyd soundpacks are sold by Arturia


Is that because they are using samples that didn't originally come with those synthesizers?


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## Kent (Apr 21, 2022)

more amazingness re: Reading Rainbow


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## doctoremmet (Apr 21, 2022)

zepking said:


> Is that because they are using samples that didn't originally come with those synthesizers?


These aren’t samples. They are presets made on Arturia software emulations of real synths. More specifically recreating sounds that were heard on DM albums. No samples were used. Basically just sounds, made by other people, on Arturia synths. So literally just a bunch of “knob and fader settings” in a data format that can be read by their software, to put it even more clearly


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## doctoremmet (Apr 21, 2022)

I think you still don’t really grasp the concept of a preset hehe. The original hardware synths of many of the Arturia emulations didn’t come with them, because there was no memory in them. The software emulations of course do have presets, i.e. sounds made with it can be stored. So they can also be sold.


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## zepking (Apr 21, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> These aren’t samples. They are presets made on Arturia software emulations of real synths. More specifically recreating sounds that were heard on DM albums. No samples were used.


I see. I'm noticing people tend to guard presets of famous song sounds pretty tightly. Even when they're not their own songs. Is this because it's hard to figure them out?


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## doctoremmet (Apr 21, 2022)

zepking said:


> I see. I'm noticing people tend to guard presets of famous song sounds pretty tightly. Even when they're not their own songs. Is this because it's hard to figure them out?


They are? There is a HUGE industry selling presets so there will always be others recreating famous “sounds”.

Most synth sounds can be recreated pretty easily, if you have access to a synthesizer with an architecture and sound character similar to the one those sounds were orginally made on. 

When sounds become “sound design”, consisting of multiple patches, made with more than one synth, involving arpeggiators, sequencers and outboard fx gear, things become more complicated of course. But for a lot of more exposed “synth presets”, just the one signature sound on a 1980s hit pop record for example, most can be programmed fairly easily.


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## zepking (Apr 21, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> They are? There is a HUGE industry selling presets so there will always be others recreating famous “sounds”.
> 
> Most synth sounds can be recreated pretty easily, if you have access to a synthesizer with an architecture and sound character similar to the one those sounds were orginally made on.
> 
> When sounds become “sound design”, consisting of multiple patches, made with more than one synth, involving arpeggiators, sequencers and outboard fx gear, things become more complicated of course. But for a lot of more exposed “synth presets”, just the one signature sound on a 1980s hit pop record for example, most can be programmed fairly easily.


I guess that's what I meant. Most tend to want to sell them rather than just share the info. I can understand the reasoning though.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 21, 2022)

zepking said:


> I guess that's what I meant. Most tend to want to sell them rather than just share the info. I can understand the reasoning though.


Well, people who are trying to make a living off of it, and companies like Arturia and UVI will charge - yes. But on here I bet most would gladly share whatever patches they’ve come up with.


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## zepking (Apr 21, 2022)

I found this

I think it's presets for Arturia dx7 
At over 250k patches....it's a little too much data.
But I found some Depeche mode ones I'm gonna try when I get home.
I'm gonna look for ah ha take on me in there as well and sweet dreams.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 21, 2022)

zepking said:


> I found this
> 
> I think it's presets for Arturia dx7
> At over 250k patches....it's a little too much data.
> ...



Yes those are taken from that DX7 presets website I linked to earlier. Original DX presets but Arturia’s software should be able to import them.

Sweet Dreams by Eurythmics was all analog synths I think, so I doubt the DX7 versions of patches you’d find would come close to the original 

Also keep in mind the hardware DX7 did not have any built in FX, so when you import these presets in the Arturia software version you’ll get sounds that are bone dry. In 1983 studio musicians and bands like DM and A-ha would typically apply fx like reverb, delay and chorus to make the digital basic sounds come to life.

So after importing the presets make sure to apply a bit of reverb in your Arturia application. These parameters won’t be part of the MIDI sysex data in that huge collection you’ve found. Also keep in mind that there are some gems in there, and also thousands of fugly sounds. The name of a preset will not always be indicative of its quality!


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## SupremeFist (Apr 21, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> I strongly encourage everyone making music with synths to get a hardware synth for learning and then creative inspiration. But go big or go home! Close to a 1:1 analog polysynth is amazing, unless you only ever use digital (but maybe then something different will inspire?), etc.


I am thinking about a Sequential Take 5 for this very reason. Pretty much knob-per-function and sounds very nice on online demos, but only 5 voices, hmmm....


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## Zero&One (Apr 21, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Sweet Dreams by Eurythmics was all analog synths I think, so I doubt the DX7 versions of patches you’d find would come close to the original


I've heard either Roland SH-09 or Juno-6. As you say, most capable synths can get in the right ball park. Part of the 'sound' is the actual catchy melody.




zepking said:


> I guess that's what I meant. Most tend to want to sell them rather than just share the info. I can understand the reasoning though.


As mentioned, most classic synth sounds are well documented. If not, visit most synth forums and someone will either give you the exact preset that was used or the settings if older synth. Synth people do like sharing I've found. Guitarists... those dudes go to the grave with their numbers!


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## doctoremmet (Apr 21, 2022)

Sweet Dreams hook on Serum:


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## doctoremmet (Apr 21, 2022)




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## doctoremmet (Apr 21, 2022)

Arturia ^ - I bet this is a factory preset?


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## zepking (Apr 21, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Yes those are taken from that DX7 presets website I linked to earlier. Original DX presets but Arturia’s software should be able to import them.
> 
> Sweet Dreams by Eurythmics was all analog synths I think, so I doubt the DX7 versions of patches you’d find would come close to the original
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tips!


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## Zero&One (Apr 21, 2022)

Built around a rhythm bed created with their recently acquired Movement Systems Drum Computer, purchased with yet another loan, Sweet Dreams... is built on a simple bass sequence from a Roland SH-101, over which Lennox was inspired to play another part on a borrowed Oberheim OB-X.


The latter began as a stock strings patch, tweaked for a faster attack. These sounds are panned in the final mix. It’s the combination of these two sounds that form the memorable riff heard throughout the tune.

Source








The 40 greatest synth sounds of all time, No 7: Eurythmics - Sweet Dreams (Are Made Of This)


Here's how you can get the sound of this '80s classic




www.musicradar.com


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## doctoremmet (Apr 21, 2022)




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## zepking (Apr 21, 2022)

Zero&One said:


> Guitarists... those dudes go to the grave with their numbers!


Lol! I've found that to be the case as well! All these great effects, no famous preset sounds... everyone wanting to sell them instead of just saying this pedal set to xyz mixed with this amp set to xyz, mixed with etc....
I understand though. 
I assume manufacturers like line 6 and Arturia can't include "ah ha take on me lead synth" and sweet Dreams bass, and pink Floyd's on the run in the presets for legal reasons? Bc of IP laws maybe?


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## zepking (Apr 21, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Arturia ^ - I bet this is a factory preset?



That guy is a great example....has all these famous sounds using Arturia...but he keeps it tight lipped....he's selling that info only


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## doctoremmet (Apr 21, 2022)

zepking said:


> pink Floyd's on the run in the presets


It’s literally a preset. EMS Synthi V. So you have it


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## doctoremmet (Apr 21, 2022)

zepking said:


> That guy is a great example....has all these famous sounds using Arturia...but he keeps it tight lipped....he's selling that info only


Yes. But you own the synth. Go and make that patch! There’s a ton of sources online that will lead the way. It’s not rocket science


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## Zero&One (Apr 21, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


>



Crazy that it’s just a little over £100 for that synth. What a great time we live in for synthesis!


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## doctoremmet (Apr 21, 2022)

zepking said:


> Bc of IP laws maybe?


Nope. If you can patch the sound on your synth, it’s yours to use. If you start playing the exact same notes with it… that’s another story


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## zepking (Apr 21, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> It’s literally a preset. EMS Synthi V. So you have it


Yeah, I think I saw that one in doctor mixes video...he was messing around with it


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## zepking (Apr 21, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Nope. If you can patch the sound on your synth, it’s yours to use. If you start playing the exact same notes with it… that’s another story


I guess what I meant is....they can't call it Ah-Ha take on me in the presets. They have to give it another name. Which, sometimes is easy to figure out...but sometimes it's not. Especially when there's over 10k presets and I don't always know which synth to look for which famous song sound...bc I don't always know which synth they used. But I need to do more digging around for sure.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 21, 2022)

That’s why sooner or later you’ll leave presets behind and start patching 

Noone has time to audition 10k presets.


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## Marcus Millfield (Apr 21, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> I am thinking about a Sequential Take 5 for this very reason. Pretty much knob-per-function and sounds very nice on online demos, but only 5 voices, hmmm....


I have a Prophet 6 and if you keep the voice count in mind it's not a problem. You can circumvent the release stealing with reverb and that few times you need a big chord with more than 5 notes, record it separately. You'll be fine


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## zepking (Apr 21, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> That’s why sooner or later you’ll leave presets behind and start patching
> 
> Noone has time to audition 10k presets.


What do you mean by patching?


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## doctoremmet (Apr 21, 2022)

Creating your own sounds. It’s called patching, because in the days of the early modular synthesizers that would literally involve patching modules (oscillators, amps, filters, envelopes, LFOs, etc) together with patch chords. That’s why a sound is sometimes also called a patch. It’s a synonym for “synth sound”. A patch that is or can be stored in memory = a preset. Of course a literal patch can’t be stored - so if you’re on an actual modular and you’ve found a cool sound: better record it or sample it hehe, because good luck achieving the exact same result some other day


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## Double Helix (Apr 21, 2022)

Like this--


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## doctoremmet (Apr 21, 2022)




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## Marcus Millfield (Apr 21, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


>



Tom doesn't have that wall anymore, does he?


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## Zero&One (Apr 21, 2022)

zepking said:


> I guess what I meant is....they can't call it Ah-Ha take on me in the presets.




Also a great source for classic tune covers


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## doctoremmet (Apr 21, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> Tom doesn't have that wall anymore, does he?


No, he sold most of his instruments some time ago, due to “option stress” and a feeling of guilt he could not pay his instruments the attention they deserve in his opinion.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 21, 2022)

The poor guy has to work with this little setup now:


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## Marcus Millfield (Apr 21, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> The poor guy...


Hardly 😄


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## zepking (Apr 21, 2022)

My goodness....I guess when someone asks how deep can you get in synthesis....the answer is....you can turn your whole entire wall into Dr Frankenstein's laboratory...full of knobs and levers, etc.
Right now,ni just don't have the time to do sound design. I'm mainly a singer who wants to mess around with guitar and keyboard.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 21, 2022)

Just to visually help you grasp the etymology of “patching” 

Open up the Moog Modular V in your Arturia collection some time. Or the ARP2600. You’ll notice some patch chords.


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## Zero&One (Apr 21, 2022)

zepking said:


> Right now,ni just don't have the time to do sound design. I'm mainly a singer who wants to mess around with guitar and keyboard.


Buy this and be done with it… he’s open to offers!









Yamaha CS-80 Synthesizer 1980 | Reverb


The Yamaha CS-80 is without a doubt the most famous synthesizer in Yamaha's CS series and was one of the first synthesizers to put Japan on the map as a manufacturer of high-quality synthesizers. The synth is massive in sound and in size, it weighs over 200 pounds. The synthesizers can be heard i...




reverb.com


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## SupremeFist (Jul 25, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> I am thinking about a Sequential Take 5 for this very reason. Pretty much knob-per-function and sounds very nice on online demos, but only 5 voices, hmmm....


Update: I'm in love.


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## Marcus Millfield (Jul 25, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> Update: I'm in love.


She's a beaut!


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