# Cinematic studio strings attack delay? Notes not lining up with other libraries on grid.



## abeautifulbeing (Mar 29, 2018)

I am trying to write a song with CSS. I have seen people having issues with legato delay but I am not referring to that, it is with all articulations (the thing I am writing with is mostly spiccato). When I try to start loading up other instruments from other developers I.E. drums, CSS samples do not align, I have to drag everything in CSS back a few milliseconds.

Is there a fix for this?

Edit: Also to add to this, the same applies to the project metronome. All the CSS strings attack behind the metronome.


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## TimCox (Mar 29, 2018)

CSS is designed that way because I believe they left in the whole attack. It's a bit more work but awesome results.


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## Dirk Ehlert (Mar 29, 2018)

I usually have my CSS midi channels sitting at a negative track delay of ca -50ms. Most of the time it pretty much lines up with this value. Most DAWs support to enter a negative track delay in the channel settings, which makes it easier to keep the notes "on the grid" while at the same time having them triggered the specified amount of time earlier to "meet the click"


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## TimCox (Mar 29, 2018)

de_signs said:


> I usually have my CSS midi channels sitting at a negative track delay of ca -50ms. Most of the time it pretty much lines up with this value. Most DAWs support to enter a negative track delay in the channel settings, which makes it easier to keep the notes "on the grid" while at the same time having them triggered the specified amount of time earlier to "meet the click"



What DAW do you use? I know Cubase has this functionality but I'm on DP


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## Dirk Ehlert (Mar 29, 2018)

TimCox said:


> What DAW do you use? I know Cubase has this functionality but I'm on DP


Yes I'm on Cubase, Unfortunately I have no experience with DP so someone would need to chime in who actually uses that one.


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## abeautifulbeing (Mar 29, 2018)

Wow that is such a same. I would have figured there is some sort of setting to adjust the attack onset, seems like a lot of work just to write on the grid. Reaper unfortunately does not have negative track delay for midi, I guess I'm going to try routing the audio out to a different channel, and use the track delay there. Might work..


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## Quodlibet (Mar 29, 2018)

abeautifulbeing said:


> I am trying to write a song with CSS. I have seen people having issues with legato delay but I am not referring to that, it is with all articulations (the thing I am writing with is mostly spiccato). When I try to start loading up other instruments from other developers I.E. drums, CSS samples do not align, I have to drag everything in CSS back a few milliseconds.
> 
> Is there a fix for this?
> 
> Edit: Also to add to this, the same applies to the project metronome. All the CSS strings attack behind the metronome.



Yes, read the manual:

"Please note that there is a short delay of 60ms from the beginning of the short note
samples to their “rhythmic peak.” We left this in the samples intentionally as we
believe this adds a significant degree of realism, and most importantly, it ensures that
the timing across all short note types is consistent. So make sure you account for this
when quantising short note tracks, either by applying a negative 60ms delay to the
whole track, or moving the the notes back manually."


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## ryanstrong (Mar 29, 2018)

I do the -60ms compensation thing but any way to affect this while "performing" the MIDI?


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## abeautifulbeing (Mar 29, 2018)

Quodlibet said:


> Yes, read the manual:
> 
> "Please note that there is a short delay of 60ms from the beginning of the short note
> samples to their “rhythmic peak.” We left this in the samples intentionally as we
> ...



So is this for only short notes? If I apply a negative track delay to the audio output at 60ms is this going to affect the longs poorly?


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## quantum7 (Mar 29, 2018)

Besides strings, I use negative track delays on many different types of both instruments and synths with slow attacks. It take just a second or 2 to do it in Cubase, and if DP doesn't have such a basic feature as that, you need to get the heck out of DP. LOL Seriously though, I would think that DP can do that very easily as it is an absolute necessity to use.


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## TimCox (Mar 29, 2018)

quantum7 said:


> Besides strings, I use negative track delays on many different types of both instruments and synths with slow attacks. It take just a second or 2 to do it in Cubase, and if DP doesn't have such a basic feature as that, you need to get the heck out of DP. LOL Seriously though, I would think that DP can do that very easily as it is an absolute necessity to use.



I'll need to dig deeper in DP. It's such a deep program I can't imagine the functionality isn't there. A quick select and drag works fine for me (which I have to do for Berlin Brass as well). In the long run I'd rather have better results vs gridlocked cues


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## TimCox (Mar 29, 2018)

abeautifulbeing said:


> So is this for only short notes? If I apply a negative track delay to the audio output at 60ms is this going to affect the longs poorly?



It's for long notes as well, including different legato speeds depending on velocity


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## Steve Lum (Mar 29, 2018)

Just my take: Bearing i mind that I don't have to produce written scores for what I do (music for my own sake), I find that the only way to get the exact performance I want (I use mostly CS2, CSS, and CSSS) is to move note start times by hand. I have become accustomed to this and prefer the workflow as I get precisely what I want.
My favorite aspect of the Cinematic libraries is the single instrument with keyswitched articulations(I hate having to part out lines for separate articulation patch/tracks). In the stuff I write I usually jump around articulations aggressively, so I can't get the response I need with an overall note onset "offset". That might make my legato sing at the right time but then my stacc/spicc/marc would sound early. So I have happily embraced the practice of grabbing chunks of notes and sliding them by eye (with snap off) as needed. (If one uses keyswitching one has to do this anyway to get the KS in front of the phrase that needs it.)
If I had to present a written score I might save a version of the piece for that purpose and go back and quantize to line things up for printing.
But this isn't limited to strings, as others have said. The same problem occurs where "feel" needs to be imparted, a simple example being "swing". There are also lots of cases where urgency is manifested by being ahead of the beat too. So for me it all comes down to hand-crafting for the polish needed for expression.


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## Quodlibet (Mar 29, 2018)

abeautifulbeing said:


> So is this for only short notes? If I apply a negative track delay to the audio output at 60ms is this going to affect the longs poorly?



Move the notes manually or use a macro. But as said you can also try the one-articulation-per-track approach with a negative track delay.

There are also some videos on cinematicstudioseries.com worth checking out if you haven't already.


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## Ihnoc (Mar 30, 2018)

I put this together a few days ago, that might help you:
https://vi-control.net/community/th...the-same-start-time-and-other-features.70174/


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## Puzzlefactory (Mar 30, 2018)

de_signs said:


> I usually have my CSS midi channels sitting at a negative track delay of ca -50ms. Most of the time it pretty much lines up with this value. Most DAWs support to enter a negative track delay in the channel settings, which makes it easier to keep the notes "on the grid" while at the same time having them triggered the specified amount of time earlier to "meet the click"



I think they actually recommend this in the manual. Although I seem to remember they say -60.


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## axb312 (Mar 30, 2018)

Steve Lum said:


> Just my take: Bearing i mind that I don't have to produce written scores for what I do (music for my own sake), I find that the only way to get the exact performance I want (I use mostly CS2, CSS, and CSSS) is to move note start times by hand. I have become accustomed to this and prefer the workflow as I get precisely what I want.
> My favorite aspect of the Cinematic libraries is the single instrument with keyswitched articulations(I hate having to part out lines for separate articulation patch/tracks). In the stuff I write I usually jump around articulations aggressively, so I can't get the response I need with an overall note onset "offset". That might make my legato sing at the right time but then my stacc/spicc/marc would sound early. So I have happily embraced the practice of grabbing chunks of notes and sliding them by eye (with snap off) as needed. (If one uses keyswitching one has to do this anyway to get the KS in front of the phrase that needs it.)
> If I had to present a written score I might save a version of the piece for that purpose and go back and quantize to line things up for printing.
> But this isn't limited to strings, as others have said. The same problem occurs where "feel" needs to be imparted, a simple example being "swing". There are also lots of cases where urgency is manifested by being ahead of the beat too. So for me it all comes down to hand-crafting for the polish needed for expression.



This is one of the reasons I wish DAWs would allow us to set a ms offset for a particular group of notes....


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## Steve Lum (Mar 30, 2018)

axb312 said:


> This is one of the reasons I wish DAWs would allow us to set a ms offset for a particular group of notes....



Right: if each note had an additional property(in addition to velocity, pitch, duration, etc.) called offset, one could leaves the notes, from a scoring perspective, exactly as they would read on the sheet, but the audio engine would know about the actual start time. The UI could "ghost" actual audio note event behind the nominal note so you could see both things at once (i.e. you would see either a pre or post image showing the shift of the offset). But there we run afoul of the midi standard i fear, which for all its awesomeness (think of any other standard that has lasted so long) can be a constraint at times.


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## abeautifulbeing (Apr 11, 2018)

Are users just slapping a global negative delay at a fixed time, applying it to every articulation in the instrument? Or are people using different negative delays on different tracks with different articulations?


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## abeautifulbeing (Apr 12, 2018)

abeautifulbeing said:


> Are users just slapping a global negative delay at a fixed time, applying it to every articulation in the instrument? Or are people using different negative delays on different tracks with different articulations?



Bumping for this question please.


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## Dex (Apr 12, 2018)

abeautifulbeing said:


> Wow that is such a same. I would have figured there is some sort of setting to adjust the attack onset, seems like a lot of work just to write on the grid. Reaper unfortunately does not have negative track delay for midi, I guess I'm going to try routing the audio out to a different channel, and use the track delay there. Might work..



Sure it does. I think it's called JS: channel time delay or something like that.


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## fixxer49 (Apr 12, 2018)

abeautifulbeing said:


> Bumping for this question please.





TimCox said:


> CSS is designed that way because I believe they left in the whole attack. It's a bit more work but awesome results.



+1 on what Tim said. Writing to the grid and writing for realism are two separate processes. CSS is going to frustrate you if you insist on placing it on the grid. If you can get over this, CSS will treat you right all day and twice on Sundays.


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## abeautifulbeing (Apr 12, 2018)

fixxer49 said:


> +1 on what Tim said. Writing to the grid and writing for realism are two separate processes. CSS is going to frustrate you if you insist on placing it on the grid. If you can get over this, CSS will treat you right all day and twice on Sundays.



I think the sound is wonderful, I am just trying to learn how to best control the samples. Should I set a fixed negative delay on the entire track, or set different delays across different articulations. I just prefer having articulations all in one track.


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## fixxer49 (Apr 12, 2018)

abeautifulbeing said:


> I think the sound is wonderful, I am just trying to learn how to best control the samples. Should I set a fixed negative delay on the entire track, or set different delays across different articulations. I just prefer having articulations all in one track.


i guess i've just gotten into the habit of nudging the notes depending on their particular articulation (ie. 60ms for the shorts, 100 ms, or whatever it is, for the legatos, etc...).


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## Ihnoc (Apr 12, 2018)

abeautifulbeing said:


> Bumping for this question please.


I was offsetting the whole track by ~-80ms in Cubase, then nudging the legato notes by 50ms at a time. Now, I just use the script I posted. However, it is always better to play it in and keep the realism.


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## aaronventure (Apr 12, 2018)

Shorts have a 60ms delay, so I have a -60ms delay on the bus for CSS so that I don't have to worry about shorts. I'd need to edit the legato lines anyway, so it's kind of a no-brainer.


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## vewilya (Apr 12, 2018)

TimCox said:


> What DAW do you use? I know Cubase has this functionality but I'm on DP


Hey there. You could use a time shift - midi plugin on the track in need. Simply tell it how much and in which direction to shift the midi data! Or you could just do it case by case with Command-L (Shift). U


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 13, 2018)

Here’s another out of the box idea LPX: set the track delay to the largest negative value needed to make sure all articulations happen exactly on time or earlier. Then make a script that watches the articulation id and adds delay back to the shorter articulations that aren’t as latent. Once you know the approximate latency of each articulation this should be pretty consistent and no more nudging notes around on the piano roll


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 13, 2018)

The only thing that really needs to be on point for me is the shorts. I have all CCS tracks at -60 ms delay by default and that's it. 
Legato needs finer adjusting with any library either way.


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## NoamL (Apr 13, 2018)

abeautifulbeing said:


> Bumping for this question please.



It depends... if CSS is the only strings I'm going to use on a piece, then I'll just load all articulations on one track and use keyswitches with a global -50ms delay. But if I'm combining CSS with other strings, especially shorts, then I'll break everything down to one articulation per track. And the first thing I'll do is bounce out some test staccatos and spiccatos with both libraries and then figure out the appropriate negative delay to get them to line up. Legatos have to be nudged by hand no matter what, tbh.


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## Ihnoc (Apr 13, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> Here’s another out of the box idea LPX: set the track delay to the largest negative value needed to make sure all articulations happen exactly on time or earlier. Then make a script that watches the articulation id and adds delay back to the shorter articulations that aren’t as latent. Once you know the approximate latency of each articulation this should be pretty consistent and no more nudging notes around on the piano roll


This is what I did, yes...
https://vi-control.net/community/th...the-same-start-time-and-other-features.70174/


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 15, 2018)

abeautifulbeing said:


> Wow that is such a same. I would have figured there is some sort of setting to adjust the attack onset, seems like a lot of work just to write on the grid. Reaper unfortunately does not have negative track delay for midi, I guess I'm going to try routing the audio out to a different channel, and use the track delay there. Might work..



Take a look at Expert Sleeper's free plugin called "Latency Fixer". You can use it to trick the DAW into thinking there is more latency to compensate for. I'm not sure how PDC works in Reaper, but basically what we are talking about here is that some sample libraries have more latency then what is reported by Kontakt to the DAW. Throw this plugin on the track to report higher latency, and the DAW should do the rest...


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## TimCox (Apr 16, 2018)

vewilya said:


> Hey there. You could use a time shift - midi plugin on the track in need. Simply tell it how much and in which direction to shift the midi data! Or you could just do it case by case with Command-L (Shift). U


Angels do exist!


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## gprok1 (May 11, 2021)

-50 works well for pretty much everything!!


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