# Frederick Douglass on the 4th of July



## JohnG (Jul 4, 2020)

What to the Slave Is the Fourth of July?


Read the full text of Frederick Douglass' iconic speech.




www.theroot.com





Excerpt: 

"What, to the American slave, is your 4th of July? I answer: a day that reveals to him, more than all other days in the year, the gross injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him, your celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty, an unholy license; your national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are empty and heartless; your denunciations of tyrants, brass fronted impudence; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mockery; your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your religious parade, and solemnity, are, to him, mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety, and hypocrisy—a thin veil to cover up crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices, more shocking and bloody, than are the people of these United States, at this very hour." -- _Frederick Douglass_


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 4, 2020)

JohnG said:


> What to the Slave Is the Fourth of July?
> 
> 
> Read the full text of Frederick Douglass' iconic speech.
> ...


Excellent quote!!


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## Jay Panikkar (Jul 4, 2020)

Interesting quote, which reveals the zeitgeist that lead to Abraham Lincoln and the abolition of slavery. Coincidentally, I was just reading about the Garden of American Heroes, which will honour Frederick Douglass.


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## kgdrum (Jul 4, 2020)

There’s an interesting article in the Wall Street Journal,two historians were discussing Fredrick Douglass opinion of Lincoln and the famous statue of Lincoln with a kneeling slave.
The historians did a search and the found a letter to the editor of a newspaper back in the day :The National Republican .
This resides in the Library of Congress.


This was submitted 5 days after the unveiling, as a letter to the editor of the National Republican a newspaper in Washington DC


To the Editor of the National Republican:
Regarding the monument in Lincoln Park:
“Sir:Admirable as is the monument by Mr. Hall in Lincoln Park,it does not as it 
seems to me ,tell the whole truth,and perhaps no one monument could be made to tell the whole truth of any subject which it might be designed to illustrate.The mere act of breaking the negro’s chains was an act of Abraham Lincoln and it is beautifully expressed in this monument.But the act by which the negro was made a citizen of the United States and invested with the elective franchise was pre-eminently the act of President U.S. Grant and this is nowhere seen in the Lincoln monument.The negro here though rising is still on his knees and nude.What I want to see before I die is a monument representing the negro,not a couchant on his knees like a four-footed animal,but erect on his feet like a man.There is room in Lincoln Park for another monument and I throw out the suggestion to the end that it may be taken up and acted upon.”
Fredrick Douglass






Extremely powerful thought and words that still resonate today.


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## jonathanparham (Jul 4, 2020)

This is something I have my children read. My youngest rolled her eyes and said, "I'm over Frederick Douglass this year.' Langston Hughes is another read. I enjoy Douglass as both conservatives 1776ers and liberals 1619ers both claim him lol


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## JJP (Jul 4, 2020)

I was reflecting on this same passage today. I wanted to like the OP, but that didn't quite feel right.

Thanks for sharing, John. It's important that we take pride in the USA while also accepting that we are a work in progress. 🇺🇸


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## chimuelo (Jul 4, 2020)

kgdrum said:


> There’s an interesting article in the Wall Street Journal,two historians were discussing Fredrick Douglass opinion of Lincoln and the famous statue of Lincoln with a kneeling slave.
> The historians did a search and the found a letter to the editor of a newspaper back in the day :The National Republican .
> This resides in the Library of Congress.
> 
> ...



A white person at that moment in time would have thought nothing of black statue because the thought of the North’s sacrifice to end slavery was a more prominent concept. But Frederic Douglas would obviously think differently, as would any black person.
The first time I saw that statue I asked my Dad why the black man was kneeling and my Father just said he didn’t know. But I grew up in N St.Louis, half of my friends were black so I always heard things from a different perspective. We were ALL Muhammad Ali fans so we saw things differently from the previous generations, and this continues.

Another statue that seems proper for the time, but doesn’t sit well with folks today is Teddy Roosevelt, a great man no doubt, but Boldly elevated on his horse while an Indian and Black man flanked him, of course on foot, even though the Plains Indian could ride bareback better than most saddled up.

Loved Douglas‘ speech. Never read that before but in History Class the main excerpt always caused a ruckus with folks.

Am I correct in assuming this was never published until 2019?
Thats amazing, such an important speech, unrehearsed, an hour long, and in front of so many people yet 169 years to publish?

At any rate Happy 4th of July.
Dont know any of my black friends or family members who are upset.
Maybe they’ve got kids in college now learning to be angry about this.
Maybe it’s time for Juneteenth to be national holiday.
All of us Black Brown and White Racists can celebrate together like we are today.


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## JJP (Jul 4, 2020)

Gene Pool said:


> That was a factually untrue statement when he it was made and it remains so. Slavery has existed all over the world throughout human history



That Douglass was not 100% accurate with this single sentence does nothing to diminish the power and accuracy of the sentiment which underlies his eloquent and insightful words.


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## Arthur Lewis (Jul 4, 2020)

Douglass was well aware of the context of his words. He follows up the above quoted statement with this one:

“It is called (in contradistinction to the foreign slave-trade) “the internal slave trade.” It is, probably, called so, too, in order to divert from it the horror with which the foreign slave-trade is contemplated. That trade has long since been denounced by this government, as piracy. It has been denounced with burning words, from the high places of the nation, as an execrable traffic. To arrest it, to put an end to it, this nation keeps a squadron, at immense cost, on the coast of Africa. Everywhere, in this country, it is safe to speak of this foreign slave-trade, as a most inhuman traffic, opposed alike to the laws of God and of man. The duty to extirpate and destroy it, is admitted even by our DOCTORS OF DIVINITY. In order to put an end to it, some of these last have consented that their colored brethren (nominally free) should leave this country, and establish themselves on the western coast of Africa! It is, however, a notable fact that, while so much execration is poured out by Americans upon those engaged in the foreign slave-trade, the men engaged in the slave-trade between the states pass without condemnation, and their business is deemed honorable.“

It seems fairer to me to label his first statement as subjective than “factually untrue”. How would you go about quantifying which was more “shocking and bloody”?




Gene Pool said:


> Alex Haley plagiarized it in any event. Slavery also still exists in parts of the Middle East.


Yes, _parts_ of Roots were conceded to be plagiarized. And yes, slavery has not been entirely eradicated from the world (see our own 13th amendment). How are these things in any way relevant to a speech made in 1852?


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## stigc56 (Jul 4, 2020)

Wiki says 1 million to 1.25 millions european were slaves in the Arabic countries, and more than 12 millions Africans were transported to USA.


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## chimuelo (Jul 4, 2020)

Gene Pool said:


> That was a factually untrue statement when he it was made and it remains so. Slavery has existed all over the world throughout human history. The Barbary Coast Muslim and North African pirates who kidnapped millions of Europeans for hundreds of years never get talked about for some mysterious reason. Africans have always engaged in intertribal slavery and continue to do so to this day. They're the ones who established its practice before the European shipping merchants ever showed up. Roots was not a documentary and Alex Haley plagiarized it in any event. Slavery also still exists in parts of the Middle East.
> 
> All of this is so easy to research for intellectually honest people whose interests extend beyond the cheap grace of virtue signaling.



He did say at this hour, and it was before Lincoln. At that time Lincoln was becoming famous as a lawyer over the Barges that destroyed the Rock Island Bridge on the Missisippi where the landmark case launched him into politics.

Truth is most nations were formed from wars and genocide. We’re just one of the more recent and wealthiest. Deep pockets are ripe targets.

Theres an argument about the Lakota Sioux, who took the Black Hills from the Cheyenne and enslaved their women and children, after the genocide on the Cheyenne men/warriors. They say Mt. Rushmore is white racist faces on ancestral grounds. Everybody took something from somebody else, and as we speak China is taking territory, well trying to. Russia took Crimea, etc.

The entire history of Earth could be litigated, which is why it’s a golden Oppurtunity to set some things straight.

My Mexican ancestors have an entirely different story about the Eel River in California, the Kit Carson expedition and the Alamo than Hollywood and our history books have. Carson actually liberated Californians who were Mexican. The Soldiers of Santa Ana were killed, but not the people/farmers/merchants.

John Wayne might not like it.

On a happier note, I’ve been a concrete worker and musician since High School.
We have a joke since not very many blacks, Asians, Indians or whites do concrete work.

What did Davy Crockett yell back at Jim Bowie @ the Alamo when he saw 5000 Mexicans running towards the Alamo.?

CONCRETE.......(what it looks like on new casinos going up when the trucks arrive, Mexicans coming out of the woodwork)

ankyu


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## kgdrum (Jul 4, 2020)

When Fredrick Douglas was discussing the violent history of the USA besides slavery he might have been also talking about the mass genocide of Native Americans. 
Unfortunately America history does have a violent dark past and we still have a long way to go.
The Black American culture and the Native American culture were more aligned and intertwined than many people realize today. 
To me trying to trivialize the history by saying other cultures did the same or other societies were more barbaric has no relevance to the subject at hand. 
When a person such as Fredrick Douglas can make a statement or give a speech and people are still discussing it 140 or 150 years later that right there tells me besides being a very important person historically he had a message that people are still learning from.


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## JJP (Jul 4, 2020)

chimuelo said:


> What did Davy Crockett yell back at Jim Bowie @ the Alamo when he saw 5000 Mexicans running towards the Alamo.?
> 
> CONCRETE.......(what it looks like on new casinos going up when the trucks arrive, Mexicans coming out of the woodwork)



I grew up in a family of ironworkers and did my time up on the iron. This cracked me up! Thanks, Chim!


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 4, 2020)

it is so weird seeing these conversations everywhere....6 years ago this would have gotten people run off the forums....

so weird...


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## Arthur Lewis (Jul 4, 2020)

Gene Pool said:


> Because it puts a lie to the Whitey = Evil narrative that was the clear self-loathing, virtue signaling basis for this post.


That basis was not at all clear, since the post itself was just a quote with no additional context. This seems to me like both an ad hominem (self-loathing, virtue signaling) and a straw man (it is entirely possible to critique the US’s hypocrisy around independence without specifically pointing the finger at Whiteness). If intellectual honesty is in fact important to you, it’s worth considering that you’re also introducing personal biases into the conversation here.


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## chimuelo (Jul 4, 2020)

JJP said:


> I grew up in a family of ironworkers and did my time up on the iron. This cracked me up! Thanks, Chim!



Yeah, Damn rodbusters always got to pull up the mesh taking away my gravy gig.


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 4, 2020)

Arthur Lewis said:


> That basis was not at all clear, since the post itself was just a quote with no additional context. This seems to me like both an ad hominem (self-loathing, virtue signaling) and a straw man (it is entirely possible to critique the US’s hypocrisy around independence without specifically pointing the finger at Whiteness). If intellectual honesty is in fact important to you, it’s worth considering that you’re also introducing personal biases into the conversation here.



Its also quite possible to talk about the systems of white supremacy separate from whiteness in general....


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## Arthur Lewis (Jul 4, 2020)

Gene Pool said:


> What sort of person would turn this into a numbers game, much less use Wkipedia as an authoritative source? But on the bright side, at least you learned an inconvenient fact that puts a lie to the historical narrative.


I don’t understand. You called Douglass’s statement that there was no nation guilty of practices more shocking and bloody “factually inaccurate”, but when someone actually resorts to numbers to discuss that factual accuracy, you insult their character? What did you mean by factually inaccurate if not something that can be refuted by numbers?

EDIT: To be clear, I maintain that the question is subjective, and an attempt to establish accuracy misses the point. But I’m trying to make sense of your argument, which seems to both call for accuracy but also reject attempts to establish it.


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 4, 2020)

Arthur Lewis said:


> I don’t understand. You called Douglass’s statement that there was no nation guilty of practices more shocking and bloody “factually inaccurate”, but when someone actually resorts to numbers to discuss that factual accuracy, you insult their character? What did you mean by factually inaccurate if not something that can be refuted by numbers?
> 
> EDIT: To be clear, I maintain that the question is subjective, and an attempt to establish accuracy misses the point. But I’m trying to make sense of your argument, which seems to both call for accuracy but also reject attempts to establish it.




I'm so confused....are we really trying to determine who wore the slave game better?

all slavery is bad...but if speaking of American slavery, it might be a rare case rooted in racial superiority, followed by centuries of oppressive systems meant to sidestep the official practice of slavery. Which is really kind of a different beast than the genocide of native Americans....or even the caged immigrants today...

I mean they're all different flavors of awful....and sure other countries have their own awful, but it doesn't take away from America's unique awfulness.

But its OK, no one needs to get their nationalism and pride in a bunch over this stuff. In can be said for any other country as well, but America is a horrible country that has done some great stuff. At the same time America is a great country that has done some horrible stuff.


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## chimuelo (Jul 5, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> Its also quite possible to talk about the systems of white supremacy separate from whiteness in general....



But don’t you enjoy watching white folks shaming themselves?
Some of the crap Im reading from celebrities and younger publicly schooled white folks is hysterical.
Its deleted by now but man, somebody should tell them (unless their family owned slaves) that it’s okay to be white. It’s okay you grew up in a middle class family with 2 parents, you got a car when you graduated you made your family proud in college or your own small business.

Now I understand why whites claim to be Indians when going to college, or say they’re black and curl their hair, etc.
The guilt has to be overwhelming requiring lies of hardships,prejudices, etc.

These folks are traumatized and should seek therapy.

Whats even scarier is Senator Warren might be VP, which means POTUS since Biden is shot.

Now that I think about it, Conquistadors murdered the indigenous peoples of south and central America, and the Cartels are super wealthy, and run California. I’m going to start a Brown Lives Matters group and try the whole white shaming/supremacy thing on them. Might work there too.
Start with the wealthy Celebs, then use their fame to shame others.

I want a wall full of Modulars.


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## chimuelo (Jul 5, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> I'm so confused....are we really trying to determine who wore the slave game better?
> 
> all slavery is bad...but if speaking of American slavery, it might be a rare case rooted in racial superiority, followed by centuries of oppressive systems meant to sidestep the official practice of slavery. Which is really kind of a different beast than the genocide of native Americans....or even the caged immigrants today...
> 
> ...



As Jodie Fosters dad said in the movie Contact.....
Your species is so interesting.
Capable of the most beautiful dreams, and horrible nightmares.


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 5, 2020)

chimuelo said:


> But don’t you enjoy watching white folks shaming themselves?
> Some of the crap Im reading from celebrities and younger publicly schooled white folks is hysterical.
> Its deleted by now but man, somebody should tell them (unless their family owned slaves) that it’s okay to be white. It’s okay you grew up in a middle class family with 2 parents, you got a car when you graduated you made your family proud in college or your own small business.
> 
> ...



Actually watching white people deal with all of this stuff lately is pretty exhausting. Its an overblown existential crisis that need not be as serious as people make it out to be.

For one...being ashamed to be white is a weird thing to contemplate. If a person was to say they were proud to be German or Russian, there is really no one who should be triggered by that. Its a pride in culture that everyone is allowed to have. The problem with pride in whiteness, is that it exists in contrast to blackness, and brown-ness and everything "not white". It's a racial identity that is not at all linked to culture. Whiteness wouldn't even need to be a thing if it hadn't been used as the opposite of blackness (blackness being the identity of slaves ripped away from their african culture)

As I said before, it is possible to talk about white supremacy, (which precedes the united states, but maybe had its greatest hits during the age of the US) and seperate that from the identity of whiteness in the american idea of such racial identity.

The only thing I always find so strange about those who try to demonize a movement such as black lives matter or the civil rights movement (since both have been labeled terrorists by media and some circles) is that they get into this loop of trying to protect the racial institution of whiteness from the goal of equality. Equality which should ultimately help everyone. True equality is meant to benefit everyone. White supremacy does not. White supremacy doesn't even protect all white people. Just those who are rich and poweful. Poor white people suffer terribly under the confines of a white supremacist system that aims to hoard wealth for its most loyal and influential members.

So yeah..I don't know...seeing white people shame white supremacists? I could kick back with some popcorn and watch that all day. Seeing white people totally miss the problem with "whiteness" is just adding more problems to the pile.


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## ptram (Jul 5, 2020)

kgdrum said:


> When Fredrick Douglas was discussing the violent history of the USA besides slavery he might have been also talking about the mass genocide of Native Americans.


I’m no expert of American history, but maybe systematic extermination of the Natives started in 1862? Planned expansion of the States to the West thanks to the new railroads, and more advanced military tactics and devices after the Civil War, made things faster. When writing the quoted letter, Douglass was still unaware of these future developments.

Paolo


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## kgdrum (Jul 5, 2020)

I don’t know the actual dates but I think the Natve Americans were getting slaughtered long before 1862.
I’m not going to argue what date the particular campaign of systemic extermination you are referring to started,regardless the practice of slaughtering and pushing Native Americans out of their homeland was ongoing for well more than 40 or 50 years. I’ll even suggest it was closer to 240 years. 
The U.S.A. as we know it was already nearly 100 years old at the time of Douglas and Lincoln and the colonialists had been establishing this territory for an additional 200+ years.
I think it would be safe to assume this was achieved with slaughter,bloodshed,and a general pattern of genocide to create what eventually became known as the U.S.A.
I’ve read many articles and stories about escaped slaves being accepted and taken in by Native American tribes and living in the Native cultures as both cultures recognized the similar circumstances they were dealing with in regards to what we refer to as white America.
The premise that the slaughter of Native Americans was “only” a 30 or 40 year period in time as horrific as that would be is imo flawed.
The first “Thanksgiving dinner” was probably around the time the Natve Americans started to get slaughtered.
I think a polically oriented black man who was an abolitionist would be well aware of a campaign of mass genocide to another culture besides his own & being carried out by the same people that sold and slaughtered his own people.
I think most Native Americans would argue that the extermination went on for hundreds of years.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 5, 2020)

JJP said:


> I was reflecting on this same passage today. I wanted to like the OP, but that didn't quite feel right.
> 
> Thanks for sharing, John. It's important that we take pride in the USA while also accepting that we are a work in progress. 🇺🇸


The tricky thing about life is there is always so much pain and suffering in the world, are none of us ever supposed to feel joy and be happy knowing someone, probably billions of people, are hurting? This was something that I really thought about a long time ago when I was in college and no matter how much I thought about this I had no answer. From my experience in life, when someone falls in love or finds deep happiness life has taught me NOT to let others see or know you are happy as most will try to destroy your happiness due to their own jealousy, envy and lack of internal happiness. I don’t come across many truly happy people in the world, especially when they witness how happy others can be. My experience taught me that if you are lucky enough to find happiness, treasure it, protect it and most importantly don’t show it to others. The WWII expression loose lips sinks ships applies more than anyone could have ever fathomed about so much of life it’s remarkable.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 5, 2020)

ptram said:


> I’m no expert of American history, but maybe systematic extermination of the Natives started in 1862? Planned expansion of the States to the West thanks to the new railroads, and more advanced military tactics and devices after the Civil War, made things faster. When writing the quoted letter, Douglass was still unaware of these future developments.
> 
> Paolo


Slavery still exists and always will in the world. If you are not a billionaire or ultra high net worth individual, then you are a slave to the money making system where without wealth one is a slave to work or they would not afford food and housing and could be imprisoned for being a vagrant. The Constitution still fully embraces slavery if one is incarcerated and imprisoned.


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 5, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> The tricky thing about life is there is always so much pain and suffering in the world, are none of us ever supposed to feel joy and be happy knowing someone, probably billions of people, are hurting?



Should we be happy knowing there is always so much pain and suffering in the world? I don't think we need to rain on each other's parades...but ignoring the suffering of others just so we can be momentarily content with the world is probably more problematic. Imagine if we were conscious enough to make changes to society so that fewer people suffered so needlessly? then we wouldn't have to think about it so much, and we could all be legitimately happier.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 5, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> Should we be happy knowing there is always so much pain and suffering in the world? I don't think we need to rain on each other's parades...but ignoring the suffering of others just so we can be momentarily content with the world is probably more problematic. Imagine if we were conscious enough to make changes to society so that fewer people suffered so needlessly? then we wouldn't have to think about it so much, and we could all be legitimately happier.


The problem with this is that way too many people’s suffering is simply not addressable unless one is God. Yes, poverty can be eradicated and better health care can be provided for everyone, but some people in the world will never be happy no matter how much you love them or give them so it would be impossible to rid the world of suffering. Also, if the dreamers, dancers and merrymakers never show the world their joy, the world would become a much more joyless place and perhaps would sink into even greater suffering and depression. I don’t have the answers. Sadly, my experience taught me if you are lucky enough to experience happiness that it may be best to keep it to yourself when around others but enjoy your joy when in a private setting, just show the world your humility not your happiness.


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 5, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> The problem with this is that way too many people’s suffering is simply not addressable unless one is God. Yes, poverty can be eradicated and better health care can be provided for everyone, but some people in the world will never be happy no matter how much you love them or give them so it would be impossible to rid the world of suffering. Also, if the dreamers, dancers and merrymakers never show the world their joy, the world would become a much more joyless place and perhaps would sink into even greater suffering and depression. I don’t have the answers. Sadly, my experience taught me if you are lucky enough to experience happiness that it may be best to keep it to yourself when around others but enjoy your joy when in a private setting, just show the world your humility not your happiness.



I think it'd be completely unreasonable to expect the world to be perfect. The only thing we really need to ask ourselves is, are we doing enough? Have we really even tried? Someone will always be angry and unhappy, but have we contributed to that by simply choosing to be oblivious? So long as the system and tools exist for people to make their own happiness in a fair and equal society, the outcome is dependent on the person's choices and actions. We, unfortunately, don't live in that kind of world yet. Much of our system is based on the idea of profit from someone else's suffering.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 5, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> I think it'd be completely unreasonable to expect the world to be perfect. The only thing we really need to ask ourselves is, are we doing enough? Have we really even tried? Someone will always be angry and unhappy, but have we contributed to that by simply choosing to be oblivious? So long as the system and tools exist for people to make their own happiness in a fair and equal society, the outcome is dependent on the person's choices and actions. We, unfortunately, don't live in that kind of world yet. Much of our system is based on the idea of profit from someone else's suffering.


Amen to that. No clue how to rid the world of greedy and power hungry people as they simply purchase whoever is currently running the governments. I’d love to see billionaires who own most of the world’s wealth pay a 5% federal property tax with no deductible on all their wealth and be taxed at 70% on income of all kinds with no tax loopholes, no reductions and no deductions. That’s never gonna happen when they can just purchase politicians.


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 5, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> Amen to that. No clue how to rid the world of greedy and power hungry people as they simply purchase whoever is currently running the governments. I’d love to see billionaires who own most of the world’s wealth pay a 5% federal property tax with no deductible on all their wealth and be taxed at 70% on income of all kinds with no tax loopholes, no reductions and no deductions. That’s never gonna happen when they can just purchase politicians.



as you said...people are slaves to money. even the super-rich. If enough people worked to breakdown the pillars that hold them up..they might not lose their wealth, but they will have to get in line if they mean to keep that wealth. at the very least BLM was able to prove that when you gather enough of the masses together, even companies that have no morals have to pretend they do in order to keep their money.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 5, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> as you said...people are slaves to money. even the super-rich. If enough people worked to breakdown the pillars that hold them up..they might not lose their wealth, but they will have to get in line if they mean to keep that wealth. at the very least BLM was able to prove that when you gather enough of the masses together, even companies that have no morals have to pretend they do in order to keep their money.


Big business has no morality. They are not getting behind BLM for any other reason than to use it to make more money 💰 but they will never admit that. Big corporations are just saying the right things to delude the public that they stand with them even though that could not be further from the truth. Companies want your money 💵 and will say anything to get it. It’s all cheap lip service with a few bread crumbs, that’s all it will ever be. They still want their tax breaks, tax rebates, tax loopholes, big government contracts, golden parachutes, stock options for execs, and average worker salaries to be 400 times less than the average CEO salaries. Feudalism is alive and well, who said the Dark Ages ever ended?


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 5, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> Big business has no morality. They are not getting behind BLM for any other reason than to use it to make more money 💰 but they will never admit that.



im fine with that. it shows we can control the general direction of their money when we come together.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 5, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> im fine with that. it shows we can control the general direction of their money when we come together.


“When we come together”? Does that happen only when one takes LSD? The current BLM is largely a failed movement. Taking down monuments, putting BLM on the back of NBA jerseys, altering a State’s flag, posting endless videos of police brutality and white Karens going off on social media, and changing the name of sports teams doesn’t cost big business anything. When the dust settles nothing changed just a bunch of lip service and a national dialogue that won’t lead to anything. Maybe more Marvel characters will be portrayed by already wealthy & famous black A-list actors. Nothing changed and nothing will. I bet most whites who say they are for BLM would not want to live in black neighborhoods or hire black professionals. Nothing’s changed.

Even a show like Hamilton is a false canard. The show primarily makes its white producers and white investors rich from the branding of a PC climate and the delusional idea that let’s white audiences imagine our rich slave owning Founding Fathers to be empowered black and hispanic, like the actors who portray them thru diet rap and diet hip hop songs for the white country club audiences that never embraced black culture but now can “get down in da hood” and pretend to momentarily purge their white man’s guilt of America’s roots in slavery. Yes, the Hispanic creator of the show is getting rich off it and yes some of the black actors in the cast are making decent money and the bottom of the A-list in Hollywood, though heading more towards TV than big pay day film careers like Will Smith and Denzel Washington. But in the end the genius of Hamilton and it’s rave reviews are merely no different than Bitcoins. Americans love what is popular and anything that makes big money 💵 The white critics can’t pan the show because that could be seen as racist so they endlessly praise its genius. Black and Hispanics don’t fuel the ticket box office that’s a job for rich white audiences, who can cathartically celebrate the empowerment of blacks and Hispanics for a few hours before going back to reality where most black and Hispanics don’t have any power. What makes rap so popular in a America? Young white people, especially young white girls. Why are young white people making black rap artists so wealthy? They think it’s cool to aggrandize the gangster community and delusionally think by exalting gangsters that somehow makes them (white consumers) more cool and gangster like, which is a twisted false sense of self-worth. Stupid is as stupid does. Hamilton gives this similar experience to the older white country club crowd who can pretend to be cool while also pretend to confront their demons regarding the guilt they have from white America’s slave owning past.


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 5, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> “When we come together”? Does that happen only when one takes LSD? The current BLM is largely a failed movement. Taking down monuments, putting BLM on the back of NBA jerseys, altering a State’s flag, posting endless videos of police brutality and white Karens going off on social media, and changing the name of sports teams doesn’t cost big business anything. When the dust settles nothing changed just a bunch of lip service and a national dialogue that won’t lead to anything. Maybe more Marvel characters will be portrayed by already wealthy & famous black A-list actors. Nothing changed and nothing will. I bet most whites who say they are for BLM would not want to live in black neighborhoods or hire black professionals. Nothing’s changed.



" life has taught me NOT to let others see or know you are happy as most will try to destroy your happiness due to their own jealousy, envy and lack of internal happiness." - NoOneKnowsAnything 

It hasn't changed the world and turned grey skies blue...but it has forced change that people of color would consider to be significant given how long it's taken to make that change.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 5, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> " life has taught me NOT to let others see or know you are happy as most will try to destroy your happiness due to their own jealousy, envy and lack of internal happiness." - NoOneKnowsAnything
> 
> It hasn't changed the world and turned grey skies blue...but it has forced change that people of color would consider to be significant given how long it's taken to make that change.


I think you are correct in that just the mere conversation of these issues is a step in the right direction. However, I still assume that when all the dust settles, nothing changed but lip service, so any verbal acknowledgement today would seem false if not followed up with true actional change that leads to dramatically less police brutality, less arrests of the black communities and more opportunities that leads to a real wealth shift for the black and Hispanic community. I doubt it.

The 13th Amendment didn’t end slavery it merely changed the way America can have legal slavery through incarceration. From the 1970s till today the number of blacks that have been incarcerated and enslaved in America is going up and up at alarming rates and numbers. This sadly won’t change.

In 2006, about 923,000 black and Hispanics were incarcerated and imprisoned (legally enslaved) in America. During the Civil War there were 2,900,000 slaves in America. Things have gotten only a little better for those communities.


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## chimuelo (Jul 5, 2020)

A very civil exchange of ideas here.
POVs some can disgree or agree with, but a modern complexity that needs discussion.


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 5, 2020)

chimuelo said:


> A very civil exchange of ideas here.
> POVs some can disgree or agree with, but a modern complexity that needs discussion.



It only racism. Not nearly as controversial as a scoring competition.


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## youngpokie (Jul 5, 2020)

Gene Pool said:


> That was a factually untrue statement when he it was made and it remains so. Slavery has existed all over the world throughout human history.



I think your comment completely misses the point. Yes, slavery existed all over the world, but it was only in the US that a promise of equality and full participation in democracy was explicitly made to all people as a matter of founding principle. Repeatedly offered and then repeatedly denied to enslaved Africans and their descendants, over and over again, in ways both overt and hidden from view. 

Douglas never diminished the uniqueness and greatness of what was achieved on July 4th, in fact he praised in on multiple occasions. In this quote, and in several others, he speaks to the sense of alienation among black people - and I'm sure you can understand why this sense alienation would be felt especially strongly in a country that explicitly said all men are created equal.


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## JJP (Jul 5, 2020)

This morning I found this in the news. It's a powerful statement of the complex feelings some Americans feel about this holiday and how they reconcile pride, frustration, and hope. We can be proud and dissatisfied at the same time. That's what drives us to seek improvement.









AMERICAN DIARY: July 4 hurts, until I remember my WWII uncle


RIO RANCHO, N.M, (AP) — The July Fourth holiday hurts me every year. Waving flags seems out of place, and wearing anything stars and stripes makes me feel like Apollo Creed in "Rocky...




apnews.com


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## marclawsonmusic (Jul 5, 2020)

Thank you for sharing, John.

I read most of this speech yesterday for the first time. It was very powerful... not just because of the emotion, but because of the argument he presents. Douglass lays out in plain English not just a case against slavery, but a case for freedom and equality. There is nothing more American than that.

I found it sad that he referred to July 4th as 'your holiday', not his. Understandable in 1865, but one would think that in 2020 things would be different. Sadly, many folks still don't feel free today. After recent events, I am starting to understand why.


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## jonathanparham (Jul 5, 2020)

Well, Douglass is what we say on social networking these days; 'Complicated' He starts out one way but towards the end of his life is another way.


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## Gingerbread (Jul 5, 2020)

It's unfortunate that in this day and age, there remain some who, under the guise of presenting "a balanced view of history," attempt to minimize the gross moral perversion of American slavery by diverting responsibility to African slavetraders. One supposes such people will next claim the Confederate states didn't actually secede due to slavery, or other revisionisms.

Just as we needn't "forgive and forget" a serial killer simply because he was stopped from continuing to murder, we as a society need to continually remember that slavery existed, continually apologize for having allowed it, and continually find ways to properly *make amends* to all those who continue to suffer the long-lasting aftereffects of it. Frankly, America hasn't done much to make amends _at all_, with reparations still under-discussed.


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## JohnG (Jul 5, 2020)

jonathanparham said:


> Well, Douglass is what we say on social networking these days; 'Complicated' He starts out one way but towards the end of his life is another way.



How so? I find he was quite consistent about most important issues. Like thinking slavery was bad, for example.

Mind you, unless you are a biographer or scholar, it would be hard to read everything he wrote.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 5, 2020)

Gingerbread said:


> It's unfortunate that in this day and age, there remain some who, under the guise of presenting "a balanced view of history," attempt to minimize the gross moral perversion of American slavery by diverting responsibility to African slavetraders. One supposes such people will next claim the Confederate states didn't actually secede due to slavery, or other revisionisms.
> 
> Just as we needn't "forgive and forget" a serial killer simply because he was stopped from continuing to murder, we as a society need to continually remember that slavery existed, continually apologize for having allowed it, and continually find ways to properly *make amends* to all those who continue to suffer the long-lasting aftereffects of it. Frankly, America hasn't done much to make amends _at all_, with reparations still under-discussed.


IMHO I’d be shocked if America passed reparations as there are so many I’m guessing who would be against it including very powerful forces (Corporate America). Also what complicates the matter is what if your origins in America didn’t even begin till after the Civil War, do you get exempted? All of a sudden it becomes a complete group guilt of all whites even if your ancestors were persecuted well before you existed. Where is my “we were slaves in Egypt” stimulus package or my “this is what happens when you kill my ancestors in the Holocaust” retirement pension money or “my family was raped and oppressed in a forced-labor camp (Russian Gulag)?” What group has not be enslaved, conquered, oppressed and marginalized throughout human history? None!! Like Native Americans who have sovereign nation protection to go with a handful of corrupt casino owners, do we do the same for BLM? Even if we did, just of handful of ruthless people would profit not the greater good. I’m all for BLM, but throughout history I don’t remember reading 📖 how the oppressed got a lifelong bonus package on most occasions and their homes were featured in Architectural Digest or Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous. Human history is replete with vicious behavior.


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## jonathanparham (Jul 5, 2020)

JohnG said:


> How so? I find he was quite consistent about most important issues. Like thinking slavery was bad, for example.
> 
> Mind you, unless you are a biographer or scholar, it would be hard to read everything he wrote.


Oh I meant in terms of his views of America. At first, he's like 'Burn it all to the ground. BUT later in life he sees the value of what America can Be. Essentially, American has potential if it can get its act together. I'm not a scholar but I'm married to one. My wife is an academic and has a side project on the 'The Black Intellectual Tradition' I mentioned this thread to her and she laughed. She recently delivered a talk at a conference where she mentions Douglass, Anna Julia Cooper, and MLK in the context of our recent US protests. Oh, my thoughts and views expressed are my own; not my wife's carefully researched studies. lol


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## marclawsonmusic (Jul 5, 2020)

Gingerbread said:


> ... and continually find ways to properly *make amends* ...



Very true... and one of the best ways to (begin to) make amends is to stop causing harm. 

You can't expect someone to forgive you for hitting them while you are still hitting them.


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## Gingerbread (Jul 5, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> IMHO I’d be shocked if America passed reparations as there are so many I’m guessing who would be against it including very powerful forces (Corporate America). Also what complicates the matter is what if your origins in America didn’t even begin till after the Civil War, do you get exempted? All of a sudden it becomes a complete group guilt of all whites even if your ancestors were persecuted well before you existed. Where is my “we were slaves in Egypt” stimulus package or my “this is what happens when you kill my ancestors in the Holocaust” retirement pension money or “my family was raped and oppressed in a forced-labor camp (Russian Gulag)?” What group has not be enslaved, conquered, oppressed and marginalized throughout human history? None!! Like Native Americans who have sovereign nation protection to go with a handful of corrupt casino owners, do we do the same for BLM? Even if we did, just of handful of ruthless people would profit not the greater good. I’m all for BLM, but throughout history I don’t remember reading 📖 how the oppressed got a lifelong bonus package on most occasions and their homes were featured in Architectural Digest or Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous. Human history is replete with vicious behavior.


For sure, it is a complicated issue. But I think there are possible workable solutions. In this case, it would specifically be compensation from the US government, for things that _the US government/states_ did or permitted, to direct ancestors of those official crimes. Therefore, the US government isn't responsible for ancient Egypt's slavery crimes, just its own. 

Similarly, a good case can be made for reparations for the US genocide of Native Americans. If we can institute tribal recognition and policies, then there's no reason we can't also make proper amends for past atrocities, unless we're saying we just don't care about our past wrongdoing.


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## RonOrchComp (Jul 5, 2020)

Gingerbread said:


> we as a society need to continually remember that slavery existed



Absolutely



Gingerbread said:


> continually apologize for having allowed it



BS - I have nothing to apologize for. Least of all continually. Recognize it's abhorrence, and do whatever is necessary to make sure it never happens again? Absolutely. But I refuse to apologize for something that a) I, and as well my ancestors had nothing to do with, and b) also happened to my own people.



Gingerbread said:


> and continually find ways to properly *make amends* to all those who continue to suffer the long-lasting aftereffects of it.



Make amends how? By throwing money at people? Yeah, that's a great idea.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 5, 2020)

Gingerbread said:


> For sure, it is a complicated issue. But I think there are possible workable solutions. In this case, it would specifically be compensation from the US government, for things that _the US government/states_ did or permitted, to direct ancestors of those official crimes. Therefore, the US government isn't responsible for ancient Egypt's slavery crimes, just its own.
> 
> Similarly, a good case can be made for reparations for the US genocide of Native Americans. If we can institute tribal recognition and policies, then there's no reason we can't also make proper amends for past atrocities, unless we're saying we just don't care about our past wrongdoing.


Of course I get that, but when you say the US government, realize it’s getting money from you and me and everyone else except of course the richest who avoid taxes. So if my ancestors were not here till after the Civil War I have to pay for something they had nothing to do with. That’s why Native Americans get casinos to run, though this has led to unusually high rates of suicide and alcoholism.

I think this is even more complex than you realize. Yes, one could argue my ancestors knowingly came to a country that had liabilities over its head. But perhaps the confederate states should be made to pay reparations and not all of us. But then what happens if rich southerners no longer live in the South. This keeps getting tricky.

I say let’s make the Southern States that were part of the Confederacy pay 💰 big reparations including any family that can be tracked back to the Confederacy regardless where they live now!! Yeeehawwww!


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## Gingerbread (Jul 5, 2020)

RonOrchComp said:


> BS - I have nothing to apologize for. Least of all continually. Recognize it's abhorrence, and do whatever is necessary to make sure it never happens again? Absolutely. But I refuse to apologize for something that a) I, and as well my ancestors had nothing to do with, and b) also happened to my own people.


The apology should be continuously coming from our government. Doing "whatever is necessary to make sure it never happens again" includes condolence for what happened. If you can't do that, then you're _not_ "recognizing its abhorrence."



RonOrchComp said:


> Make amends how? By throwing money at people? Yeah, that's a great idea.


It's a bad idea...except for the alternative. Providing compensation for official wrongs is the standard and accepted way governments of all sizes (local to federal) remit amends for their wrongdoing.


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## JohnG (Jul 5, 2020)

jonathanparham said:


> Oh I meant in terms of his views of America. At first, he's like 'Burn it all to the ground. BUT later in life he sees the value of what America can Be. Essentially, American has potential if it can get its act together.



Regarding your wife's work (and not having seen it!) I can discern, I think, a direct line between the "cash the check" part of MLK's speech in Washington and some of what Douglass wrote, for sure.

I haven't read enough of Douglass to know he never said "burn it to the ground" but I'm on his autobiography. In that, I thought he was talking about the gulf between the promise (the rhetoric of freedom) and the institution of slavery.

I guess had we grown up as he did, we might have thought some pretty aggressive things.

Thanks for the exchange.

John


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## RonOrchComp (Jul 5, 2020)

Gingerbread said:


> If you can't do that, then you're _not_ "recognizing its abhorrence."



Bullshit. I _can_ recognize its abhorrence, say_ sorry that it happened_, and leave it at that and move on.

_The apology should be continuously coming from our government. _

And how often would you like to hear it? Daily? Annually? And on what forum? And which gov official (after all, the gov is comprised of people) would continuously say _"sorry"?_

And on that note, should the gov continuously say _"sorry" _to Native Americans? Should the gov continuously say _"sorry" _to the Japanese who were put in c.camps here, and bombed over there? Should the gov continuously say _"sorry it took so long to get involved_" to all the Jews and other non-aryans who perished at the hands of the Nazi party?


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## Gingerbread (Jul 5, 2020)

RonOrchComp said:


> And how often would you like to hear it? Daily? Annually? And on what forum? And which gov official (after all, the gov is comprised of people) would continuously say _"sorry"?_


Annually. Any forum which serves. The gov official designated to do it.



RonOrchComp said:


> And on that note, should the gov continuously say _"sorry" _to Native Americans? Should the gov continuously say _"sorry" _to the Japanese who were put in c.camps here, and bombed over there? Should the gov continuously say _"sorry it took so long to get involved_" to all the Jews and other non-aryans who perished at the hands of the Nazi party?


Yes. Yes. Yes.


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## JohnG (Jul 5, 2020)

I mean, what's so bad about your idea, anyway, @RonOrchComp ? An annual apology for what -- 50-100 million people who lived their lives in poverty, slavery, or kicked off their ancestral lands?

Doesn't seem that awful to me. If you want to be forgiven you have to at least say, "sorry."


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 5, 2020)

An apology generally tends to come in the superficial form of holidays.

honestly we’re beyond reparations. What makes more sense is balanced investment in poor communities and laws to protect against racial discrimination. There’s no need to even pinpoint just Black people. Making laws that protect everyone helps us all get to a good spot. Reworking the educational funding structure so the low income areas finally get funding to become competitive helps. Revamping standards for loans so that they no longer can discriminate against minorities will help black and brown businesses grow.

if there is anything america should pinpoint it’s Native American culture. What’s left needs to be added to annual curriculum and whatever native languages are left need to be taught. If Americans can learn latin, there’s room for native languages and cultures.


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## NoOneKnowsAnything (Jul 5, 2020)

JohnG said:


> I mean, what's so bad about your idea, anyway, @RonOrchComp ? An annual apology for what -- 50-100 million people who lived their lives in poverty, slavery, or kicked off their ancestral lands?
> 
> Doesn't seem that awful to me. If you want to be forgiven you have to at least say, "sorry."


Maybe a national holiday that sort of does it all, celebrate, commemorate, honor, give thanks and appreciation, and ask for forgiveness.


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## chimuelo (Jul 5, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> It only racism. Not nearly as controversial as a scoring competition.



Actually it’s fake racism and regression, the new religion in the country of WOKEistan...hankyu.


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 5, 2020)

chimuelo said:


> Actually it’s fake racism and regression, the new religion in the country of WOKEistan...hankyu.



I know...how awful a world it is when people start to try and give a damn about others...

woke-ness...

a plague on all our houses.


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## RonOrchComp (Jul 5, 2020)

Gingerbread said:


> Annually. Any forum which serves. The gov official designated to do it.
> Yes. Yes. Yes.



Wow. And I suppose you want the gov of Germany - the current one, that is, to apologize for everything from invading Poland in 1939 to the holocaust? And the current gov of Egypt should apologize for enslaving Jews centuries ago? And the gov of Japan to apologize for PH. And the gov of Yugoslavia for it's ethnic cleansing a couple of decades ago. And the gov of China should apologize for the Uighur camps. And the gov of Saudi Arabia should apologize for not catching/stopping the terrorists for 9/11. And the gov of Norway should apologize for it's crusades and plundering centuries ago. And the list goes on and on. I mean, you want every gov to apologize for everything? Say yes, and I'll say you are cookoo.


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 5, 2020)

RonOrchComp said:


> Wow. And I suppose you want the gov of Germany - the current one, that is, to apologize for everything from invading Poland in 1939 to the holocaust? And the gov of Japan to apologize for PH. And the gov of Yugoslavia for it's ethnic cleansing a couple of decades ago. And the gov of China should apologize for the Uighur camps. And the gov of Saudi Arabia should apologize for not catching/stopping the terrorists for 9/11. And the gov of Norway should apologize for it's crusades and plundering centuries ago. And the list goes on and on. I mean, you want every gov to apologize for everything? Say yes, and I'll say you are cookoo.



ill say yes yes yes and to all of them yes. An apology is just an apology and acknowledging that wrongs were done. I suppose some people think that it means getting on hands and knees and begging for forgiveness, but it's really not that serious.

"We made mistakes in the past. it was not our finest hour and we hope to never repeat those mistakes. Let us all move on in good spirits and good faith."

applause, crack open a bottle, everyone drink, and be merry.


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## Gingerbread (Jul 5, 2020)

RonOrchComp said:


> Wow. And I suppose you want the gov of Germany - the current one, that is, to apologize for everything from invading Poland in 1939 to the holocaust?


They have. And they continue to do so. That's the only way they ensure it won't happen again. Today's German government has been very proactive about that. They've also paid reparations, to prove that the apology is real and tangible, not just words.

Those who can't apologize for past mistakes don't think they were mistakes.


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## jonathanparham (Jul 5, 2020)

JohnG said:


> said "burn it to the ground" but I'm on his autobiography.
> 
> Thanks for the exchange.
> 
> John


OH I haven't read his biography. Those are my words. Of what I have read, there seems to be this change of hate of America to this potential for America.


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## chimuelo (Jul 5, 2020)

NoOneKnowsAnything said:


> IMHO I’d be shocked if America passed reparations as there are so many I’m guessing who would be against it including very powerful forces (Corporate America). Also what complicates the matter is what if your origins in America didn’t even begin till after the Civil War, do you get exempted? All of a sudden it becomes a complete group guilt of all whites even if your ancestors were persecuted well before you existed. Where is my “we were slaves in Egypt” stimulus package or my “this is what happens when you kill my ancestors in the Holocaust” retirement pension money or “my family was raped and oppressed in a forced-labor camp (Russian Gulag)?” What group has not be enslaved, conquered, oppressed and marginalized throughout human history? None!! Like Native Americans who have sovereign nation protection to go with a handful of corrupt casino owners, do we do the same for BLM? Even if we did, just of handful of ruthless people would profit not the greater good. I’m all for BLM, but throughout history I don’t remember reading 📖 how the oppressed got a lifelong bonus package on most occasions and their homes were featured in Architectural Digest or Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous. Human history is replete with vicious behavior.



True, but as a real negotiation starts, you shoot for the moon and land somewhere between here and there, but further than before.
You’re correct though, there’s always the snowball effect, so if we get it right in the USA, other nations watching like China or Iran are going to see their peoples discontent. 

I have a fellow Jazz performing friend from Siberia of all places, only met him once. He despises Putin, etc. But life is okay and he gets to perform somewhere out there by Lake Baikal.

But spray painting Mao’s picture or burning a Chinese Flag is like death wish. He served in the Russian military right out of High School and told me stories about his training in winter, etc. Best story was how during border patrols the Chinese were always doing their worshipping of a giant 100 foot flag and the second one the same size was of Mao. Every morning they cheered as they hoisted their symbolic murals/flags. The Russian commander got sick of seeing and hearing them so instructed his entire battalion to drop their pants and show their asses to the Chines Flag and mural of Mao. This continued and on the 3rd day the Chinese soldiers stopped. Allowing Mao’s memory to be disrespected is a terrible thing.

At any rate, what has-ends in the USA is always viewed as being the end of America, it will never recover, etc. Bull Shit, our diversity is always our strength to improve and what made the USA great. You don’t see millions racing to live in Iran, China or Russia. Last time I checked 6 million folks have left Venezuela. Socialist utopia is a complete failure. Cuba, Russia and China are there to collect on their debts with Drug money and Oil being exchanged. ( check out Ari Durgarte, super hot model working from Guadalajara now)

But imagine as we clean up the ashes and straighten some old vendettas out, that billions of people around the world start tearing down Mao, Putin or the Supreme Spinach Chins in Iran.

No joke. I travelled around and when you hear Palestinian HipHop you realize how influential our uniquely odd US culture really is.

Im optimistic because I’ve seen this show before. You just need to seek out the upside.

Thanks to COVID-19 Cirque du Soleil is bankrupt. Sad, but what’s coming will be fresh and new.

Still waiting for Country Western to have some white shaming songs. Then I’ll know real progress was made.

The old Dixie Chicks coming back as the Karen’s or something.


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## JohnG (Jul 5, 2020)

jonathanparham said:


> OH I haven't read his biography. Those are my words. Of what I have read, there seems to be this change of hate of America to this potential for America.



Maybe? He wrote more than most people ever will. A brilliant man.


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## chimuelo (Jul 5, 2020)

Autonomous zones named WOKEistan. Karen Blvd., etc.


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## RonOrchComp (Jul 5, 2020)

Gingerbread said:


> They have. And they continue to do so. That's the only way they ensure it won't happen again. Today's German government has been very proactive about that. They've also paid reparations, to prove that the apology is real and tangible, not just words.
> 
> Those who can't apologize for past mistakes don't think they were mistakes.



And they do so annually, as you say should be the case? Where?


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## Gingerbread (Jul 5, 2020)

RonOrchComp said:


> And they do so annually, as you say should be the case? Where?


So you went from "I don't believe current Germany apologizes for their atrocities in WWII" to "They don't do it _annually!!!" _Talk about moving goal posts.

The gist of your postings is that you don't believe nations should show real, tangible, and recurrent contrition to those they've hurt. I disagree, and moreover, we see the result of that neglect. Unrest won't end until real and tangible contrition is finally made.


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## RonOrchComp (Jul 7, 2020)

I moved no goal posts. I asked a legit question, and you didn't answer. That's telling. Very telling.

_The gist of your postings is that you don't believe nations should show real, tangible, and recurrent contrition to those they've hurt _

Nothing wrong with apologizing, but do I beleive nations should do that anually... as in every single year over and over again until the end of time? No, because I am of sound, mind and body.


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## chocobitz825 (Jul 7, 2020)

RonOrchComp said:


> I moved no goal posts. I asked a legit question, and you didn't answer. That's telling. Very telling.
> 
> _The gist of your postings is that you don't believe nations should show real, tangible, and recurrent contrition to those they've hurt _
> 
> Nothing wrong with apologizing, but do I beleive nations should do that anually... as in every single year over and over again until the end of time? No, because I am of sound, mind and body.



ok, everyone, that's enough. Let's discuss this at the properly designated time...

February...


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