# Openback headphones



## jononotbono (Apr 19, 2018)

I've been using a pair of Closed Back Audio Technica ATH-M50 headphones for a while now and although I love them (especially for tracking), I'm looking for a pair of Openback headphones. Mainly because wearing closed back can be tiring to wear for long writing sessions. I've fancied a pair of open backs to compliment my closed backs for a while so I've decided between... 

Beyerdynamic DT 990 Pro
Beyerdynamic 880 Pro
Sennheiser HD650

Curious what your favourite open back headphones are and any opinions on the 3 choices I have decided on?

Jono


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## sostenuto (Apr 19, 2018)

Same search here, and top of list is currently 880 Pro ...... after many, many posts, etc.
I hope you get some 'solid' ideas, but also wonder now about 250 or 600 ohm version. I understand impedance, and will be driving with Focusrite I/F. Still not sure what critical issue is with this choice. 

Good luck !!


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## nulautre (Apr 19, 2018)

I'm using the 990s (mainly because i got an amazing deal on the "all black" limited edition). People seem to like the 880s better because they are a little "flatter" in terms of sound, but i'm also using the Morphit plug in to correct the bumps in the frequencies, so they work great for me.


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## Richard Wilkinson (Apr 19, 2018)

I have the 650HD and love them. AT MH50 for tracking, Senns for mixing.


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## jononotbono (Apr 19, 2018)

Richard Wilkinson said:


> I have the 650HD and love them. AT MH50 for tracking, Senns for mixing.



Out of interest, what do you use for your main Monitors? 

I’m now swaying between 880s and HD650s


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## Richard Wilkinson (Apr 19, 2018)

jononotbono said:


> Out of interest, what do you use for your main Monitors?



Nasty little Mackie mr5s - I never upgraded them and my current room is a bit of a shambles acoustically, so they're doing a job for now...


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## iobaaboi (Apr 20, 2018)

I’ve owned the 650s in the past and now use 880s. The main difference is the 650 is dark and thick while the 880 is brighter and more spaced out. I think either headphone will serve you well, especially once you get to know it for mixing. 

My vote would go towards a pair of 880s with the Sonarworks plugin, since that’s what I currently use and am very happy.


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## ironbut (Apr 20, 2018)

I've owned a slew of headphones (Senn. HD600, HD650, HD800, Audio Tech. AD2000, Beyer 880, 990, 770 etc etc,..) and IMHO the HD600 or the 650 are the best "tools" out of the bunch.
They both go low enough so you can use them to check the low bass of your mixes against a reference. 
The 600 is a little lighter on the bass so it is a little flatter but it's also a little harder to check your bass.
Be aware that both Senn.s need to be stretched out a little (put it around a few books for a few days) so it doesn't smush the stuffings out of yo hayd but after that, they're a joy.
BTW, my daily headphone is the Senn. HD800 which is even better but way more cash.

Just remembered...
If you get a chance, try and listen to the new gen of Focal headphones. They have some that are super $$$ but also a couple under a grand that are supposed to be excellent. I've been out of the game for a while so I haven't heard them.


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## ghostnote (Apr 20, 2018)

HD800 is the one I use. Had them all. Including the dt880. I'd still use the 880 if there wouldn't be that harschness at 8-10kHz. Here's some help:

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/the-ultimate-headphone-thread-headphoneamps-added.35400/


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## Pixelee (Apr 20, 2018)

Shure SRH1840. Not bright like the K701 so your mix sounds bassy. This open back is also not bassy Super unhyped and neutral.


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## tav.one (Apr 20, 2018)

I’m using Sennheiser HD 650/6XX and my mixes on them sound very close to my monitor mixes (Yamaha HS80Ms)

The massdrop deal price ($199) is hard to beat (its on again for next 9 days)


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## Anders Wall (Apr 20, 2018)

I’ve been on the Grado 500s for quite some time.
They need a good amp.
Painful to use with glasses.
/A


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## JonAdamich (Apr 20, 2018)

I've been using the DT990 pro for the last handful of months and love them to death.


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## Mike Marino (Apr 20, 2018)

I don't have any experience with the few you've posted about but you might take a look at the AKG-K702. Good stereo imaging, very comfortable to wear for long periods of time. They roll off a touch of bass and sound a little bright as well.


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## lp59burst (Apr 22, 2018)

I have the Sennheiser 650HD's and AT MH50's. 

I prefer the 650HD + the Sonarworks plugin for recording. 

I like the AT MH50's better for playing guitars through my L6 Helix and Kemper.


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## Andrew Aversa (Apr 22, 2018)

I mix and produce largely on DT880s, with occasional reference to low-end Tascam monitors.


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## MaxOctane (Apr 22, 2018)

The DT880s are ridiculously comfortable.


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## Hywel (Apr 22, 2018)

MaxOctane said:


> The DT880s are ridiculously comfortable.



+1

I've been happy with them for several years.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Apr 23, 2018)

I'd wait until Sonarworks has a sale and then get the custom calibrated ones from them. It ended up being cheaper than buying anywhere else (sale plus they were offering free worldwide shipping at the time) when I got mine.

From Sennheiser I've only heard the 800's and I didn't find them particularly special and didn't find them comfortable. Way too light and loose. I much prefer the more snug Beyerdynamics.


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## blougui (Apr 23, 2018)

HD 650 has a reputation (look Audiofanzine comparative tests) of not having enough high end so the sound is closed and therefore difficult to mix with.


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## tav.one (Apr 23, 2018)

blougui said:


> HD 650 has a reputation (look Audiofanzine comparative tests) of not having enough high end so the sound is closed and therefore difficult to mix with.


I think its a matter of taste. I like the warm tone of 650s, AT50 sound so high end heavy to me that my ears hurt listening to any music on them.
I find high end of 650 very smooth and enjoyable.


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## jononotbono (Apr 23, 2018)

Ok, I just did some free work for a friend and he decided to buy me a pair of 990s as a gift. So I guess that decision was made for me! I’ll send them to Sonarworks but also see how I get on with them. If necessary, I’ll try another pair out when any sales are on.



Mike Marino said:


> I don't have any experience with the few you've posted about but you might take a look at the AKG-K702. Good stereo imaging, very comfortable to wear for long periods of time. They roll off a touch of bass and sound a little bright as well.



That’s interesting. I have a friend with a pair of these and he is going to lend them to me. He loves them.

Man, this stuff is so subjective.


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## Mike Marino (Apr 23, 2018)

jononotbono said:


> That’s interesting. I have a friend with a pair of these and he is going to lend them to me. He loves them.
> 
> Man, this stuff is so subjective.


That will definitely inform you then since you'll get to borrow a pair. 'Try before you buy' is king in most cases so that'll be perfect. Definitely subjective!

I also own a pair of ATH-M50. Once I got the K702s I've used the M50s very little.


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## jononotbono (Apr 23, 2018)

Mike Marino said:


> That will definitely inform you then since you'll get to borrow a pair. 'Try before you buy' is king in most cases so that'll be perfect. Definitely subjective!
> 
> I also own a pair of ATH-M50. Once I got the K702s I've used the M50s very little.



There's just something a bit exhausting wearing the ATH-M50s for such long sessions. I think they will become my Tracking headphones once I change to open backs.


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## jononotbono (Apr 25, 2018)

So I did some free work for a friend a little while ago as he was in a bit of a pinch and today he dropped round a brand new pair of Beyer 990 Pros to say thank you. Time to try these bad boys out then


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## soundmind (Apr 25, 2018)

Curious to hear your thoughts on the 990 compared to the K702 when you get to borrow them. Enjoy!


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## pulsedownloader (Apr 25, 2018)

Can also recommend the DT990 headphones. Very comfortable for long periods of time and a nice sound overall.


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## ironbut (Apr 25, 2018)

Fantastic!
I have a pair of those too.
I love 'em for late night movie watching!


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## tsk (Apr 25, 2018)

It is very subjective, but having tried the AKG702, Beyerdynamic DT880 Pro, Sennheiser HD600 and HD650, Audio-Technica ATH-M50 and even a pair of Audeze headphones which cost about $2k.. I found the Sennheiser HD650 to be my favorite, both for sound and comfort. Although I've only worn the ATH-M50 for any length of time, so I didn't get a chance to try many different mixes on the rest.


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## jononotbono (Apr 25, 2018)

So far the 990s are sounding fantastic. When i first tried them this morning I forgot to try them with the calibration profile supplied with Sonarworks and man, what a difference Sonarworks made when I selected the 990 Pro profile.

I can only compare to the ATH-M50 Closed Backs I own at the minute but I’m loving the bottom end and wide stereo image they give (with Sonarworks). They feel very comfortable as well in comparison. The 990s are definitely going to get a lot of use and I think the M50s will now be retired to tracking headphones (or for when listening and bleed is a concern).

I’ll borrow some AKG 702s soon and compare them to the 990s.


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## JohnG (Apr 25, 2018)

check the low end on the 990s. Used to be a bit too much, which could cause you to under-do your bass frequencies. Probably it's better now, and maybe that software will help.

A-B with speakers, in other words, and see if the bass becomes distinctly louder or softer.


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## jononotbono (Apr 26, 2018)

JohnG said:


> check the low end on the 990s. Used to be a bit too much, which could cause you to under-do your bass frequencies. Probably it's better now, and maybe that software will help.
> 
> A-B with speakers, in other words, and see if the bass becomes distinctly louder or softer.



Once I used the Sonarworks Calibration Profile for the 990s, the Bass was instantly “better”. More clarity, the levels seem balanced and image was wide. But I’ve only had them for just over a day so I need more time to conclude anything. So far though, I am loving what I am hearing. Gonna try and do an entire mix with them, and then check the mix on my Adam Monitors just to see what happens.


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## JohnG (Apr 26, 2018)

jononotbono said:


> Gonna try and do an entire mix with them, and then check the mix on my Adam Monitors just to see what happens



Good plan. While there is indeed subtle sculpting in mixing, the basics matter even more, and there's nothing more basic than how much you dial in of bass/tuba/kick/low synths/timpani/gran cassa/etc. 

Just how much low end you put in makes a night-and-day difference to the overall emotional energy of any track.

It's also the number one reason to have a sub. Sure, it's fun to wham up the low stuff, but one needs to know _exactly_ how hard one is whamming it. Before I bought a sub sometimes I'd be adding too much really low content and not realise how much there was.


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## jononotbono (Apr 26, 2018)

JohnG said:


> It's also the number one reason to have a sub. Sure, it's fun to wham up the low stuff, but one needs to know _exactly_ how hard one is whamming it. Before I bought a sub sometimes I'd be adding too much really low content and not realise how much there was.



Buying a Sub is my next priority hardware purchase. Sick of guess work and now I've sorted my room out with treatment and Sonarworks I can finally hear what I should have been for a long time. I've been round to a friends studio and they have a couple of Subs. I instantly loved having the ability to use a foot switch to turn them on and off as and when needed... 


Then it's finally onto a Surround Setup (taking me long enough I know).


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## ironbut (Apr 26, 2018)

I was going to mention the bass also (why they're great for movies).
If you use reference tracks often enough while you're getting used to the 990's you'll learn to compensate automatically.
Same as with any monitoring system (none are perfect so you have to learn to work with what you have).


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## ptram (Apr 28, 2018)

I just recently bought a pair of AKG K702, to replace/alternate my old AKG K270. I bought them because I needed something lighter, and was attracted by the idea of a similar sound, but airier and with a deeper stage, maybe to also be used for leisure listening music.

It's a bit too soon to say something of a pair of headphones asking for some break-in, but as of now I can confirm that they are clear, deep, airy. Used to listen to the "1615 – Gabrieli in Venice" album (from a SACD disc converted to PCM by a Sony Blu-Ray player, then to a NADD 302BEE), the delicate and intricate texture of polyphonic voices was very easy to understand, and the church ambience was delicate but very present. Sylvian's "Gone to Earth" (read on an HK HD970) revealed the beautiful Lexi reverb and the nuances of the whispering voice. The second version of "Musique de la Grèce Antique" of Gregorio Paníagua was extremely transparent.

Sample libraries (listened through the Steinberg UR824's phone output) are showing a linear behavior, with no apparent emphasis from double bass to piccolo, and with well-defined voices, clearly placed on the stage. Bass frequencies are not vigorous or boomy, but are as clear as I remember them in a concert hall. There is not a hint of unfocussed sound. They will however probably produce a bit of bass-heavy mix, because the bass frequencies are less than what we are accustomed to.

Compared to the old K270, the sound has much in common, but this one is more open and apparently lighter on the bass. Reading the datasheets, the 702 should go deeper, but being also brighter, it seems weaker on the bass. I would say they can work very well together. I can't say the 702 reveals a really deeper sound stage, but I guess I should let them break-in a little more than a few hours.

I can't compare them to other headphones, since it is a bit of time I don't use them but for occasional listening. I would say they compare favorably to some old Beyer DT-880 and Sennheiser HD-600, but I wouldn't be able to say which one is better.

I would like they were a bit more "intimate", but all I listened to sounded a bit distant. Probably they would work better with a dedicated amplifier. Or I just have to wait for them to work a little more. At the moment, I can describe them as "very revealing".

Paolo


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## Hywel (Apr 28, 2018)

Slightly off topic but closely related - what is the lifespan of headphones? Do they age, or sound profiles change over time? Probably depends on how much use they get I guess but does anybody have any guidelines on the subject?

Hywel


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## Jediwario1 (Apr 29, 2018)

Hywel said:


> Slightly off topic but closely related - what is the lifespan of headphones? Do they age, or sound profiles change over time? Probably depends on how much use they get I guess but does anybody have any guidelines on the subject?
> 
> Hywel



The main thing to watch is the ear pads, over time they will compress (won't stick out as much) so your ear will become closer to the speakers. I recently changed the ear pads on my DT880 Pro and there was quite a difference.


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## Hywel (Apr 29, 2018)

Jediwario1 said:


> The main thing to watch is the ear pads, over time they will compress (won't stick out as much) so your ear will become closer to the speakers. I recently changed the ear pads on my DT880 Pro and there was quite a difference.


OK, that's interesting, I have the DT880 Pro's as well, and have had them for several years now. How often would you recommend a change, how easy is it to do and how easy is it to obtain a new pair of pads (UK)?

Hywel


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## Jediwario1 (Apr 29, 2018)

Hywel said:


> OK, that's interesting, I have the DT880 Pro's as well, and have had them for several years now. How often would you recommend a change, how easy is it to do and how easy is it to obtain a new pair of pads (UK)?
> 
> Hywel



I bought my headphones second hand so I'm not sure how old they were, the ear pads had a slight green/yellow colour to them (oil from hair and face). 

I got the ear pads from https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beyerdynamic-EDT990V-Headphone-Pads-Silver/dp/B001BYL5YE/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1525058385 (here). They came with instructions on how to replace, and it was easy to do.


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## blougui (Apr 30, 2018)

Hey Johnobono, you also need to use them for like 24h in a row at average level or something to have them working properly, like any speakers (when I bought mine I was at 1st so disapointed compared to the one I tried in the store - Akg 701 that is). 
Just pour some music in them...


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## jadedsean (May 27, 2018)

sostenuto said:


> Same search here, and top of list is currently 880 Pro ...... after many, many posts, etc.
> I hope you get some 'solid' ideas, but also wonder now about 250 or 600 ohm version. I understand impedance, and will be driving with Focusrite I/F. Still not sure what critical issue is with this choice.
> 
> Good luck !!


Hey i'm also considering the Beyerdynamic 880 Pro 250ohm but can't find much info online about the ohms in regard to matching with an interface, i am currently using a Focusrite Saffire USB 6 but i have a feeling these are not compatible. Have you any ideas if this is the case? Cheers in advance for your response.


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## Mornats (Jun 26, 2018)

I'm torn between the DT 880 pro and 990 pro, the latter being a fair bit cheaper. Would there be much difference between them if I'm using Sonarworks?

I'm wanting to go from my M50x to open back headphones to mix with (in conjunction with speakers).


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## Garry (Jun 26, 2018)

After trying the 770, 880 and 990s, I opted for the 770. However, I think I regret it; one of the reasons was that everytime I saw pictures of professional studios, when I zoomed in on the cans they were using, almost always 770s! Then Christian Henson did a review of home studio gear, and his recommendation of the 770s confirmed it; listening to all 3 in the shop, I found it hard to tell much difference if I'm completely honest.

Then when I got them home, I was distinctly unimpressed. Didn't think I would need a headphone amplifier, but in conjunction with my soundcard (Komplete Audio 6), it was lacklustre. So, bought the FiiO amplifier, and whilst better, I can't say I really love them. But, I'm stuck with them now - can't justify multiple sets of headphones!

Would Sonarworks help here?


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## jononotbono (Jun 26, 2018)

Sonarworks helps in every situation.


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## Divico (Jun 26, 2018)

jadedsean said:


> Hey i'm also considering the Beyerdynamic 880 Pro 250ohm but can't find much info online about the ohms in regard to matching with an interface, i am currently using a Focusrite Saffire USB 6 but i have a feeling these are not compatible. Have you any ideas if this is the case? Cheers in advance for your response.


Im using the same headphones on a Saffire Pro 40. Its a matter of the headphone output being powerful enough. The more impedance your headphone has the more power youll need to make them loud enough.


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## Garry (Jun 26, 2018)

My monitors are Yamaha HS8s, and I don't have a treated room. Should I go for the Reference 4.1 Studio Edition (for headphones only) at $99 - I don't think I would stretch to the Studio Edition at $249 (plus the studio version would need the reference mic at another $69), but maybe worth trying the free demo?


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## Garry (Jun 26, 2018)

I installed Sonarworks Reference 4 demo, and activated it, but I'm not seeing it in Logic. I see it as a file in HD/Library/Audio/Plug-Ins/VST/Sonarworks Reference 4 Plugin.vst, but I don't see it as an available plug-in on any track (including master), and when I open the plug-in manager it isn't there either.

What's the blindingly obvious thing I'm overlooking?


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## Garry (Jun 26, 2018)

Garry said:


> I installed Sonarworks Reference 4 demo, and activated it, but I'm not seeing it in Logic. I see it as a file in HD/Library/Audio/Plug-Ins/VST/Sonarworks Reference 4 Plugin.vst, but I don't see it as an available plug-in on any track (including master), and when I open the plug-in manager it isn't there either.
> 
> What's the blindingly obvious thing I'm overlooking?


Ok, it was the blindingly obvious tech support that my mum could have given me!! Reboot!


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## Garry (Jun 26, 2018)

So, I hate to be a Philistine about this, but either I'm doing something wrong, or I'm just not getting it: I've now got Sonarworks working, and is operating as a plug-in on the stereo-out channel. I set the headphone calibration to the correct unit (DT 770 Pro 80 Ohm), but when I A/B them, the output sounds better without the plug-in! If I understand correctly, this means my headphones are adding frequencies that improve the sound, but may be misleading me if I were to listen on another system, that colours the sound differently? Did I get this correct?

If so, then Sonarworks doesn't seem to help my situation: for me, I'm not really looking for a neutral sound (I only really care what it sounds like on my system, not multiple others), but I was hoping that it would help get more out of my somewhat disappointing experience with the DT 770 Pros (80 Ohm) combined with the FiiO headphone amplifier. I don't say this setup sounds terrible, it's ok, but isn't the boost I was hoping for from my previous Bose headphones (mainly used for noise cancellation situations).

Did I do something wrong?


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## robgb (Jun 26, 2018)

Garry said:


> So, I hate to be a Philistine about this, but either I'm doing something wrong, or I'm just not getting it: I've now got Sonarworks working, and is operating as a plug-in on the stereo-out channel. I set the headphone calibration to the correct unit (DT 770 Pro 80 Ohm), but when I A/B them, the output sounds better without the plug-in! If I understand correctly, this means my headphones are adding frequencies that improve the sound, but may be misleading me if I were to listen on another system, that colours the sound differently? Did I get this correct?
> 
> If so, then Sonarworks doesn't seem to help my situation: for me, I'm not really looking for a neutral sound (I only really care what it sounds like on my system, not multiple others), but I was hoping that it would help get more out of my somewhat disappointing experience with the DT 770 Pros (80 Ohm) combined with the FiiO headphone amplifier. I don't say this setup sounds terrible, it's ok, but isn't the boost I was hoping for from my previous Bose headphones (mainly used for noise cancellation situations).
> 
> Did I do something wrong?


If you're merely using Sonarworks for listening for pleasure, then you don't need to use it at all. The point of Sonarworks (and the less expensive Morphit) is to correct your headphones, making them as flat as possible, so that when you mix you can make EQing decisions that aren't colored by the headphones and throwing off the mix. It's for mixing only. When you render your mix, you have to make sure to turn off Sonarworks so that it isn't part of the final render.

By the way, quick tip. Get the Sonarworks or Morphit trial demos, set it up for your headphones and look carefully at the EQ curve it has created for your phones. You can copy that EQ curve in your onboard EQ and you have essentially the same thing, and you don't have to pay for it. I did this with Morphit, then did an A/B comparison between Morphit and my EQ and found zero difference between the two.


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## steveo42 (Jun 26, 2018)

I recently picked up the DT-990 Pro 250 ohm model and I do find it to be very bright, with a sizzle on the high end. I have broken them in now and it's much better. The low end is powerful without being overwhelming and the stereo stage is excellent IMHO.. With Sonarworks, they sound absolutely perfect. Huge improvement in my opinion. My other phones are Sony 7506, Sony MDR-V6 (the original from the 80's), ATH-M50X and AKG Q701 (Quincy Jones version of the K701).


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## David Chappell (Jun 26, 2018)

robgb said:


> If you're merely using Sonarworks for listening for pleasure, then you don't need to use it at all. The point of Sonarworks (and the less expensive Morphit) is to correct your headphones, making them as flat as possible, so that when you mix you can make EQing decisions that aren't colored by the headphones and throwing off the mix. It's for mixing only. When you render your mix, you have to make sure to turn off Sonarworks so that it isn't part of the final render.



I disagree - I would encourage using sonarworks at all times, for both casual listening and all through the production process, rather than only using it at the mixing stage. I'm using it on speakers, though, so I can't speak for how it works with headphones.

The main benefits I find from using it at all times:
1- Training my ear to what "flat" sounds like by having all music/ audio corrected. Before they released systemwide it was dreadful having correction when producing but not having correction for general listening. Now I have it on all the time, I have a much better sense of what well mixed music should sound like.
2 - Getting a much more balanced arrangement before I even start mixing. The more I get used to Sonarworks, the less corrective mixing I need to do, since most of that's now dealt with in the arrangement


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## jononotbono (Jun 26, 2018)

David Chappell said:


> I disagree - I would encourage using sonarworks at all times, for both casual listening and all through the production process, rather than only using it at the mixing stage. I'm using it on speakers, though, so I can't speak for how it works with headphones.
> 
> The main benefits I find from using it at all times:
> 1- Training my ear to what "flat" sounds like by having all music/ audio corrected. Before they released systemwide it was dreadful having correction when producing but not having correction for general listening. Now I have it on all the time, I have a much better sense of what well mixed music should sound like.
> 2 - Getting a much more balanced arrangement before I even start mixing. The more I get used to Sonarworks, the less corrective mixing I need to do, since most of that's now dealt with in the arrangement



Exactly. Systemwide is a fantastic creation.


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## N.Caffrey (Jun 26, 2018)

I have the ATH-M50, what do you guys think of them? I've had them for years, I just find them pretty tiring for long session.. would the DT a better option?


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## steveo42 (Jun 26, 2018)

N.Caffrey said:


> I have the ATH-M50, what do you guys think of them? I've had them for years, I just find them pretty tiring for long session.. would the DT a better option?



They are mid-bass heavy IMHO. Also uncomfortable for any extended period of time. I wear glasses so that does make things worse. I have the M50x version.


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## Garry (Jun 26, 2018)

jononotbono said:


> Exactly. Systemwide is a fantastic creation.


Thanks - good to know, though I take @robgb’s point, that since I’m not really aiming for things to sound good across multiple systems, then getting a flat response, or training myself to listen for it, isn’t really necessary in my case - if it sounds good on my system, the only system it’ll be played on (just a hobbyist here), then flat isn’t a requirement - is that correct?


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## packetslave (Jun 26, 2018)

Totally agree that having Sonarworks available systemwide is hugely valuable, *but* I wish it didn't add so much latency! I personally find it unusable for things like YouTube videos and Netflix, simply due to the latency.

My fix was to use MenuBus to instead apply the VST version of Soundworks to the system audio. Boom! systemwide audio correction and no perceptible latency (also makes it easy to throw a UAD LA-2A on there when watching a movie )


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## robgb (Jun 26, 2018)

David Chappell said:


> I disagree - I would encourage using sonarworks at all times, for both casual listening and all through the production process, rather than only using it at the mixing stage. I'm using it on speakers, though, so I can't speak for how it works with headphones.
> 
> The main benefits I find from using it at all times:
> 1- Training my ear to what "flat" sounds like by having all music/ audio corrected. Before they released systemwide it was dreadful having correction when producing but not having correction for general listening. Now I have it on all the time, I have a much better sense of what well mixed music should sound like.
> 2 - Getting a much more balanced arrangement before I even start mixing. The more I get used to Sonarworks, the less corrective mixing I need to do, since most of that's now dealt with in the arrangement


Whatever the case, you should NOT use the filter while rendering.


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## jcrosby (Jun 26, 2018)

People using Logic... You can clone SW/Reference's corrective EQ using Logic's Match-EQ and a pink noise or sine sweep. (You can also choose between zero latency, minimum phase, and linear phase... I typically stick with zero latency... Gets the job done and not a fan of latency when tracking/composing... and match-eq is way more CPU forgiving than SW or reference...) Pro-Q2 also works for those not in Logic...

Also, for those convinced that a _"Flat" _frequency response is the _ideal_ way intended to use SW with, you should at least read the article below... In general, the goal isn't necessarily to flatten cans so much as make them a canvas for whatever EQ sounds best to your ears... (YMMV of course.)

Research shows most people prefer their phones after applying a speaker-like response curve... Sonarworks included the _'1974 B&K Optimum Hifi' _setting for this reason... A flat frequency response is an optimum baseline for you to apply a curve that sounds more natural to your ears...Works for Bob Katz, (quite a fan after trying this myself...) 

Anyway, I'd recommend giving it a shot... Made working in phones much less fatiguing for me... 

https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/acoustic-basis-harman-listener-target-curve


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## jonbonjon (Jun 28, 2018)

Ok so i've been using my DT990 Pros for a couple years now and yes they are great on mids and highs but bass kind of invisible so i rely on guess work really. My HS5 arent great in the lower ends either so my bass always ends up really hit and miss. Im trying this reference 4 software to see if it makes any difference. I dont know that it will really but even if its just eqing my main out to get a flatter response doesnt hurt to try the demo i suppose. I will suck it and see.


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## jonbonjon (Jun 28, 2018)

heh well after a very brief listen back to my soundcloud stuff i must say it sounds alot better.. at least alot more 'balanced' through the sonarworks plugs. Seems to tame the freq spike abit..


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## danbo (Jun 28, 2018)

Spent many years chasing audio reproduction because I wasn't producing music myself, I've tried everything. Most accurate (best in my book) headphone, and audio production device (beating horns, planers and dynamics) in my book are *Stax headphones*. They were commonly found in broadcast studios, until music programming got so bad that they seemed to not care about fidelity.

Otherwise I've still got a few Beyer around, gave up on Senn as too woolly.


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## steveo42 (Jun 28, 2018)

jonbonjon said:


> Ok so i've been using my DT990 Pros for a couple years now and yes they are great on mids and highs but bass kind of invisible so i rely on guess work really. My HS5 arent great in the lower ends either so my bass always ends up really hit and miss. Im trying this reference 4 software to see if it makes any difference. I dont know that it will really but even if its just eqing my main out to get a flatter response doesnt hurt to try the demo i suppose. I will suck it and see.



Interesting. I find the bass to be strong but the phones overload easy on heavy bass passages.
I'm wondering if there is something wrong with my pair. They are only a couple of weeks old and were factory sealed etc. Sonarworks really makes these phones sound much better as it tames the shrill high end.


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## jononotbono (Jun 30, 2018)

Garry said:


> Thanks - good to know, though I take @robgb’s point, that since I’m not really aiming for things to sound good across multiple systems, then getting a flat response, or training myself to listen for it, isn’t really necessary in my case - if it sounds good on my system, the only system it’ll be played on (just a hobbyist here), then flat isn’t a requirement - is that correct?



Sorry for the delayed response. Hopefully you have read the Sonarworks manual by now and understood what Systemwide is. If not, briefly, Systemwide utilises the Room correction Plugin on the audio output of your Soundcard/interface. Sure, you could follow Robgb's advice but I wouldn't. The whole point of the Room correction is like adding Room treatment to your room. When you listen to any audio, whether it's from your DAW, watching videos on You Tube or listening to music on Spotify, you aren't going to take down Room Treatment from your physical walls when you go from listening to audio in your DAW to watching the YouTube videos are you? The room treatment stays up forever. You then learn the room and hopefully happy days!

There is absolutely no point in using an EQ on you DAW Masterbus (or listen bus - whatever you like to do) and then have audio from other sources not have that same EQ. You will never learn "your room" and audio will be different from different sources. And Systemwide is only for the one system you are using, even if you have multiple monitors. It isn't for multiple systems, it's for the same system. And flat. You can tailor the EQ settings to what you want after you have measured the room (or simply use the headphone settings) but seriously, I don't understand why anyone would want to use Sonarworks unless it is flat. The aim here is to make what you here translate anywhere else. And yes, of course, people can just "learn their rooms". It's what everyone does but when your room sounds like a horse box with Skrillex shat from a Horse's mouth, that's a whole load of "I'll check my mixes in the car! Oh, as usual, my mixes sound like sonic Dogs Brown! Where's all the bass? The mix sounded amazing when I mixed it". Sonarworks will fix that immediately.

Hopefully this clears up what Systemwide is for. I'll happily say, Sonarworks is one of the best investments I have ever made. I recently wrote a library track for Universal and it got rejected 6 times on the mix lacking bottom end. I looked into Sonarworks, realised that my mix, despite me thinking there was a great amount of Bass, was completely lacking in bass. I couldn't believe the difference. One remix through Sonarworks and it got accepted.

Anyway, some people hate Room correction EQ but many of us love it and it makes a huge amount of difference. Even with headphones.


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## JVazquez (Jun 30, 2018)

HD600 are flatter than HD650. Better for classical and 'mixing'. HD650 sound a little sexier, I've heard.


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## WindcryMusic (Jul 3, 2018)

I recently got a pair of HD6XX phones from Massdrop, but thus far I've been very disappointed with them ... everything sounds very "mushy" and indistinct through them. However, I'm not sure if this is just the way these sound, or if there is something wrong with my pair, or if it is the fault of not having a dedicated headphone amp for them (I'm using the headphone output from my Duet 2). Does anyone have any suggestions that might lead me to want to pull these back out of my equipment closet?


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## tav.one (Jul 4, 2018)

WindcryMusic said:


> I recently got a pair of HD6XX phones from Massdrop, but thus far I've been very disappointed with them ... everything sounds very "mushy" and indistinct through them. However, I'm not sure if this is just the way these sound, or if there is something wrong with my pair, or if it is the fault of not having a dedicated headphone amp for them (I'm using the headphone output from my Duet 2). Does anyone have any suggestions that might lead me to want to pull these back out of my equipment closet?



I use my HD6XX with Duet 2 (and Sonarworks), not mushy at all, the best sounding of all I've tried in $200 to $500 range (best sounding to me, I love a little dark, warm & smooth sound rather than hyped highs)


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## WindcryMusic (Jul 4, 2018)

tav.one said:


> I use my HD6XX with Duet 2 (and Sonarworks), not mushy at all, the best sounding of all I've tried in $200 to $500 range (best sounding to me, I love a little dark, warm & smooth sound rather than hyped highs)



That's good to know. Not because it will necessarily make me like the sound of my HD6XX phones, but because I was afraid that it was my fault for trying to use them with an insufficient amp. You probably just saved me in excess of $300, which I was contemplating investing in a standalone headphone amp and some sort of line switcher to use it in combo with the Duet 2. I would have been far unhappier if I'd spent that extra money and still not liked the sound of the phones afterwards. At least, at the current time, I'm only out the $200 on the headphones themselves ... and maybe someday I'll come around to liking them, but for right now I unfortunately just don't.

I suppose what I should do now is try to find someone else nearby (southern MN) with a pair of HD6XX or HD650 phones that they like, and see if I can visit them to do a quick comparison. And just in case anyone reading this qualifies, please PM me.


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## JonAdamich (Jul 4, 2018)

steveo42 said:


> Interesting. I find the bass to be strong but the phones overload easy on heavy bass passages.
> I'm wondering if there is something wrong with my pair. They are only a couple of weeks old and were factory sealed etc. Sonarworks really makes these phones sound much better as it tames the shrill high end.


Do you use them a lot? Sometimes there is kind of a break in period with them. I was thinking of picking of sonarworks. Do you see a major difference?


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## steveo42 (Jul 4, 2018)

JonAdamich said:


> Do you use them a lot? Sometimes there is kind of a break in period with them. I was thinking of picking of sonarworks. Do you see a major difference?



I've started using them a lot. They are definitely sounding better after the break in period and like I said, Sonarworks makes a nice improvement. I'm currently running them through a Schiit Magni 3 and they are sounding very good.


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## Quasar (Jul 4, 2018)

For open back, I am very happy with the HD 598, which I got - not for technical/engineering listening - but for pure comfort and enjoyable listening while dinking around with ideas and composing. They are insanely comfortable, are clear and neutral but perhaps emphasize the mid & mid-high registers and are not so strong for bass. They convey a great sense of depth & space, almost as though you were listening to monitor speakers rather than headphones.

Just looked them up on Amazon, and was shocked to see them priced at $389.99. I bought them there (the light colored maroon and beige ones) for $150 (USD) a couple of years ago... For closed, isolated listening I have the ATH-M50x, which are probably more honest but not nearly as comfortable as the older ATH-M40fs, which I don't believe they make any longer.


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## URL (Jul 24, 2018)

Anyone that use Beyerdynamic DT-1770 Pro 250 Ohms?


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## storyteller (Jul 24, 2018)

WindcryMusic said:


> I recently got a pair of HD6XX phones from Massdrop, but thus far I've been very disappointed with them ... everything sounds very "mushy" and indistinct through them. However, I'm not sure if this is just the way these sound, or if there is something wrong with my pair, or if it is the fault of not having a dedicated headphone amp for them (I'm using the headphone output from my Duet 2). Does anyone have any suggestions that might lead me to want to pull these back out of my equipment closet?


My HD650s sound considerably better out of my Apogee Quartet rather than my Apogee One (I purchased it for some portable stuff years back. I'd say the One sounds mushy in comparison to the Quartet, though it still sounds good). But there was also a break-in period. I let my cans run 24/7 for about a week straight at a significant volume to break them in. They sounded much better after that break-in period than they did out-of-the-box.


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## WindcryMusic (Jul 24, 2018)

storyteller said:


> My HD650s sound considerably better out of my Apogee Quartet rather than my Apogee One (I purchased it for some portable stuff years back. I'd say the One sounds mushy in comparison to the Quartet, though it still sounds good). But there was also a break-in period. I let my cans run 24/7 for about a week straight at a significant volume to break them in. They sounded much better after that break-in period than they did out-of-the-box.



That's a very good point. I haven't broken my HD6XX's in at all ... just tried them out for 30 minutes or so the night they arrived, got disgusted and put them in the equipment closet, where they've stayed ever since. I should probably do a similar break-in before I come to any conclusions. Thanks!


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## URL (Jul 24, 2018)

Anyone compared Beyerdynamic DT-1770 Pro 250 Ohms with DT-770?


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## Hunter123 (Aug 8, 2018)

I'm actually using the ATH M50x as well and looking for some openbacks and am probably going to go for Sennheiser 650's. For those that own these what headphone amp do you use? Is it a good idea to get one that connects through Bluetooth as I don't have too many available ports on my Mackbook Pro.


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## Jazzy_Joe (Sep 22, 2018)

jononotbono said:


> Once I used the Sonarworks Calibration Profile for the 990s, the Bass was instantly “better”. More clarity, the levels seem balanced and image was wide. But I’ve only had them for just over a day so I need more time to conclude anything. So far though, I am loving what I am hearing. Gonna try and do an entire mix with them, and then check the mix on my Adam Monitors just to see what happens.



Any update on your DT 990 experience Jono? I'm in the running for a set that can translate mixing well, in conjunction with Sonarworks. Would love to hear how you are getting on!


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## jononotbono (Sep 22, 2018)

Jazzy_Joe said:


> Any update on your DT 990 experience Jono? I'm in the running for a set that can translate mixing well, in conjunction with Sonarworks. Would love to hear how you are getting on!



I love them. I wear them for hours on end and they are so comfortable. They sound great. I'm not sure I am ready to just mix music with them (and have trust in my mixing decisions) but I certainly love writing music wearing them. I mix music on my Adam monitors (and check headphones). I still use my Audio Technica M50s for tracking as they are closed back but I pretty much only use the 990 Pros when writing now. With Sonarworks they are even better. For the money, and if looking for a pair of open backs, the DT990s are definitely worth trying out.


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## Jazzy_Joe (Sep 22, 2018)

Cheers man, glad to hear the comfort factor is there too. Dammit, just ordered a pair! 
I have sonar works, and will be doing a lot of mixing over the next few months in headphones while moving about. 
I've been using MDR 7506's, closed back for this scenario up until this point, and know them well, but looking forward to learning a pair of open backs! Thanks for your thoughts


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