# Voicing choir for that 'epic' sound



## Paul Owen (Jan 6, 2017)

Hi guys, as per the title, what's the normal structure (midi wise) for choir voicings for that epic sound? What intervals should be used? I'm thinking Elliot Goldenthal type of choir etc.

Cheers 

Paulo


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## Farkle (Jan 6, 2017)

Elliot Goldenthal choir? He does a lot of aleatoric, and clustery stuff with his choirs, but you don't mean that, I think, no? 

A great, tried-and-true, epic and easy voicing is this. Women in triads, just voice leading, etc. 3 Part harmony, voiced in triads. Men double the women exactly; one octave lower:

Here's a prime example in Vaughan Williams "Sea Symphony"



Mike


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## JohnG (Jan 6, 2017)

Buy a copy of the pieces everyone imitates, and do that.

Top of the list: Carmina Burana, O Fortuna.


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## Paul Owen (Jan 6, 2017)

Farkle said:


> Elliot Goldenthal choir? He does a lot of aleatoric, and clustery stuff with his choirs, but you don't mean that, I think, no?
> 
> A great, tried-and-true, epic and easy voicing is this. Women in triads, just voice leading, etc. 3 Part harmony, voiced in triads. Men double the women exactly; one octave lower:
> 
> ...



Mainly this is what I was thinking of. 


Thanks for the advice and the example. I'll have a listen 

Paulo


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## Paul Owen (Jan 6, 2017)

JohnG said:


> Buy a copy of the pieces everyone imitates, and do that.
> 
> Top of the list: Carmina Burana, O Fortuna.


Thanks, I'm looking more for advice from a technical point of view, but I'll give your suggestions a try also.

Ta 

Paulo


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## JohnG (Jan 6, 2017)

Titus is TOTALLY AWESOME. So awesome that it became the soundtrack for 300 as well.


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## JohnG (Jan 6, 2017)

Paul Owen said:


> more for advice from a technical point of view,



do you mean like which library and settings?


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## Paul Owen (Jan 6, 2017)

JohnG said:


> Titus is TOTALLY AWESOME. So awesome that it became the soundtrack for 300 as well.



Yeah, that temp track curse!


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## JohnG (Jan 6, 2017)

check out the score for 300 as well.

What choir libs do you have?


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## Paul Owen (Jan 6, 2017)

JohnG said:


> do you mean like which library and settings?


More really of the voicings/intervals used for that kind of sound. Farkle gave an example but it seems like there would be too many voicings (but maybe I'm wrong).


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## Paul Owen (Jan 6, 2017)

JohnG said:


> check out the score for 300 as well.
> 
> What choir libs do you have?



Soundiron Olympus


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## Stiltzkin (Jan 6, 2017)

Goldenthal is sort of an orchestration master in most of his works, and Robert Elhai, whom he works with often is another god of the trade - however you might be thinking this is a bit more complex than it really is (a lot of what makes this particular track so 'epic' is in the simplicity of the writing. That isn't to say it isn't expertly written - it absolutely is, but a 'simple' composition by a master tends to be something really special [think Arvo Pärt Spiegel im Spiegel] - it also helps that the performance and recording is outstanding too). I'm not around my setup right now, but the voicings sound pretty standard for most of it, almost block piano chords style (with the roots being doubled in most cases), then the harmony expands and contracts, the way most 4 part harmony does. You could probably emulate this quite accurately with 8dio or metropolis ark 1 (I don't own ark1, but based on what I've heard, it would be able to do this pretty easily).

Also fun fact, you can hear some of the recording session with the choir on it's own here:



and the cue without the choir here:


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## Paul Owen (Jan 6, 2017)

Stiltzkin said:


> Goldenthal is sort of an orchestration master in most of his works, and Robert Elhai, whom he works with often is another god of the trade - however you might be thinking this is a bit more complex than it really is (a lot of what makes this particular track so 'epic' is in the simplicity of the writing. That isn't to say it isn't expertly written - it absolutely is, but a 'simple' composition by a master tends to be something really special [think Arvo Pärt Spiegel im Spiegel] - it also helps that the performance and recording is outstanding too). I'm not around my setup right now, but the voicings sound pretty standard for most of it, almost block piano chords style (with the roots being doubled in most cases), then the harmony expands and contracts, the way most 4 part harmony does. You could probably emulate this quite accurately with 8dio or metropolis ark 1 (I don't own ark1, but based on what I've heard, it would be able to do this pretty easily).
> 
> Also fun fact, you can hear some of the recording session with the choir on it's own here:
> 
> ...



Great! Thanks for that and the vids too, love this kind of thing. So, mainly octaves with harmony in the upper registers?


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## Stiltzkin (Jan 6, 2017)

Paul Owen said:


> Great! Thanks for that and the vids too, love this kind of thing. So, mainly octaves with harmony in the upper registers?



Sounds more to me like octaves with harmony on the inner notes - in terms of piano writing is popular with the "grander" romantic composers; liszt/rachmaninov etc.


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## JohnG (Jan 6, 2017)

I don't mean to be a broken record, but get "O Fortuna" from Carmina Burana and you're off and running. It's not that complicated but it's not just three notes either. The problem with Titus as a model is that if you get too close to it -- it's Titus. And you don't want to do that.

I think Carmina Burana is still in copyright so of course you don't want to copy that either, but if you have temp love going on you have to be wary and look for other models besides the temp or you can get in a jam with producers.

You can also look at Handel's Messiah for that "big finale" sound.


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## Morodiene (Jan 6, 2017)

Check out Verdi Requiem Dies Irae and Brahms Requiem 5th movement (?) as well for examples. Also, review part writing rules.


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## Paul Owen (Jan 6, 2017)

JohnG said:


> I don't mean to be a broken record, but get "O Fortuna" from Carmina Burana and you're off and running. It's not that complicated but it's not just three notes either. The problem with Titus as a model is that if you get too close to it -- it's Titus. And you don't want to do that.
> 
> I think Carmina Burana is still in copyright so of course you don't want to copy that either, but if you have temp love going on you have to be wary and look for other models besides the temp or you can get in a jam with producers.
> 
> You can also look at Handel's Messiah for that "big finale" sound.



Thanks John, really appreciate it.


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## Paul Owen (Jan 6, 2017)

Morodiene said:


> Check out Verdi Requiem Dies Irae and Brahms Requiem 5th movement (?) as well for examples. Also, review part writing rules.



Thanks Morodiene, I'd forgotten how incredible Verdi Requiem Dies Irae was. Where might I find somewhere to review part writing for choir?


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## Morodiene (Jan 6, 2017)

Paul Owen said:


> Thanks Morodiene, I'd forgotten how incredible Verdi Requiem Dies Irae was. Where might I find somewhere to review part writing for choir?


Imslp.org, look at the vocal score. Probably my favorite resource along with YouTube.: )


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Jan 6, 2017)

"O Fortuna" first chords use the 3 notes + 8vb scheme. 

But the voicing is interesting.


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## Paul Owen (Jan 6, 2017)

Morodiene said:


> Imslp.org, look at the vocal score. Probably my favorite resource along with YouTube.: )


Thank you.


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## Morodiene (Jan 6, 2017)

Another epic gem: Berlioz Requiem Lacrymosa...especially the last section, it just keeps building!

And yes, I have a thing for Requiems.


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## tonaliszt (Jan 6, 2017)

Who doesn't love a good requiem?

Are you familiar with the Durufle?


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## Paul Owen (Jan 6, 2017)

Morodiene said:


> Another epic gem: Berlioz Requiem Lacrymosa...especially the last section, it just keeps building!
> 
> And yes, I have a thing for Requiems.


Because they're awesome thanks for the great suggestions!


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## Morodiene (Jan 6, 2017)

tonaliszt said:


> Who doesn't love a good requiem?
> 
> Are you familiar with the Durufle?


Yes! Sang that (along with the Faure) in college. Great stuff!


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## Niah2 (Jan 7, 2017)

Good epic choir moments on this one too:


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## quidam (Jan 8, 2017)

This is maybe on IMSLP as well:


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## tokatila (Jan 8, 2017)

Like this you mean?


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## Paul Owen (Jan 8, 2017)

tokatila said:


> Like this you mean?




Exactly. Thanks for this.


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## patrick76 (Jan 8, 2017)

O Fortuna from Carmina Burana with score.


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