# Cinesamples Price Hike?



## easyrider (Sep 27, 2021)

I’ve just gone to buy Tina Guo and I’ve noticed a massive price hike?

😩


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## Double Helix (Sep 27, 2021)

Yes, I saw where HollyWoodWinds increased from $199 to $229 (fortunately, thanks to Steve's largess, I got in on the sale before the price hike)

*$99


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## jbuhler (Sep 27, 2021)

easyrider said:


> I’ve just gone to buy Tina Guo and I’ve noticed a massive price hike?
> 
> 😩


Yeah, some of the pricing now seems out of line even on sale at 50% off.


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## AMBi (Sep 27, 2021)

Yeah they did it ever since their current Labor Day 50% off started.
I'm guessing the prices will be back to normal after the sale or they'll wait for Black Friday to 're-adjust' them (so its not so suspicious lol) since the prices have been consistent for so many years already.

I feel bad for anyone who doesn't know any better and thinks they're getting a good deal

Getting an entire $10 off the Tina Guo is a pretty irresistible sale if you ask me


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## Gingerbread (Sep 27, 2021)

The older the scripting is, the more expensive it gets!


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## Casiquire (Sep 27, 2021)

AMBi said:


> Yeah they did it ever since their current Labor Day 50% off started.
> I'm guessing the prices will be back to normal after the sale or they'll wait for Black Friday to 're-adjust' them (so its not so suspicious lol) since the prices have been consistent for so many years already.
> 
> I feel bad for anyone who doesn't know any better and thinks they're getting a good deal
> ...


I'm not so sure. Aren't they under new management? This might be the new normal


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## CT (Sep 27, 2021)

Weird behavior, at best. The list of developers I want anything to do with grows ever shorter.


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## reids (Sep 27, 2021)

Wow, that is a tacky move on Cinesamples part! Was this what they were talking about a few months ago when they said they take care of their customers...by hiking the prices and stating its half off?


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## doctoremmet (Sep 27, 2021)

Whenever some new investor shareholder comes into the picture you can bet the spreadsheet bottom line managers take over, and the focus shifts from legato scripts to maximize-cashflow-and-plan-the-exit scripts.


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## Supremo (Sep 28, 2021)

I'm pretty sure that's just another marketing trick to offer further 'discounts' every once a quarter from these increased prices and thus, indulge new customers in a shopping spree.


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## Buz (Sep 28, 2021)

It sounds like they intend these prices to stick. Although I wonder if they're making way for a deeper discount strategy (not dirt cheap but coming out a bit less than the -50% from the old prices).


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## easyrider (Sep 28, 2021)

Do Cinesamples have an account here?

Maybe they could comment?


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## dani (Sep 28, 2021)

they replied via email that they believe it is the right price for what they offer ... also they said there will be news or updates ...


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## Rudianos (Sep 28, 2021)

Yes increases and I don't see the value increasing. I like Cinesamples but the other devs are running circles around them in content and development. The increases are not great, and the quality is great ... and they may very well need money for future development. Ive given my fair share already but will cease increasing with these hikes. I still sit listening to feet and talking in my Cinebrass Pro.


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## mgaewsj (Sep 28, 2021)

dani said:


> they replied via email that they believe it is the right price for what they offer ... also they said there will be news or updates ...


exactly:
"we believe the new pricing structure more accurately reflects the value of these libraries and the work that went into producing them" 😲

at least they should have announced it *before* the sale!


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## cqd (Sep 28, 2021)

Come on v2.0..


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## Robin Thompson (Sep 28, 2021)

mgaewsj said:


> "we believe the new pricing structure more accurately reflects the value of these libraries and the work that went into producing them" 😲


I feel like it would have been more appropriate to time these price increases with the (supposedly imminent) 2.0 cinesymphony updates. If they can match the quality of their scripting to the quality of their samples, that statement above would certainly be true. Until then....


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## Robert_G (Sep 28, 2021)

Lol. Im not sure Ive ever seen any other sample library developer raise prices on their original libraries as they get older and more out of date.


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## Markrs (Sep 28, 2021)

This is an odd decision by Cinesamples as Sample Libraries are getting cheaper with many older one discounted with the exception of OT. I think even VSL have reduced the price on some of their older libraries.


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## RogiervG (Sep 28, 2021)

raising the price on purpose during or just before doing a huge sale, resulting that the discount isn't actually over the normal price, but the increased price (so you as customer end up pay much more, in an unfair way) is illegal in many countries. (customer protection etc)


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## RogiervG (Sep 28, 2021)

Markrs said:


> This is an odd decision by Cinesamples as Sample Libraries are getting cheaper with many older one discounted with the exception of OT. I think even VSL have reduced the price on some of their older libraries.


Correct, their VI's (vienna instruments) are cheaper since quite a while. (e.g. orchestral cube)


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## muziksculp (Sep 28, 2021)

Looking forward to see CineSamples Updates released for all of their older libraries.


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## RogiervG (Sep 28, 2021)

ka00 said:


> Just to play devil's advocate here for a sec. When were these libraries released? Isn't CineBrass like 10 years old? There isn't anything inherently taking away the value of the library is there? Especially if they do scripting and interface updates and things like that.
> 
> How much did they bump up the price? Less than 10% on the full price? How much has inflation been in the last 10 years?
> 
> ...


Still doing it just before a sale.. is suspicious at best (seems like doing it on purpose just for the sales). They could have done it during their non sale periods (at least two months of no sales on the increased in price products)


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## Casiquire (Sep 28, 2021)

ka00 said:


> Just to play devil's advocate here for a sec. When were these libraries released? Isn't CineBrass like 10 years old? There isn't anything inherently taking away the value of the library is there? Especially if they do scripting and interface updates and things like that.
> 
> How much did they bump up the price? Less than 10% on the full price? How much has inflation been in the last 10 years?
> 
> ...


Some prices near-doubled.


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## Jackdaw (Sep 28, 2021)

ka00 said:


> How much did they bump up the price? Less than 10% on the full price? How much has inflation been in the last 10 years?


If I recall correctly, Tina Guo and Taylor Davis libraries that I bought earlier this year cost $99 each before sale, now they are $179 so its much more closer to 100% than 10%


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## thesteelydane (Sep 28, 2021)

Well, the market is saturated and no one is selling anything unless running a sale so they won’t be selling anything at full price anyway. And to play devil‘s advocate for a second, inflation affects everyone. A cup of coffee is a lot more expensive than it was 10 years ago, and it’s not like it’s any better than it was 10 years ago. With that in mind, if you had a catalogue of products that was old, but still desired by customers, wouldn’t you raise the price too?

Of course there are other factors, and honesty in advertising and all that. Customers will vote on that with their wallets.

I just don’t get the outrage. It’s a business, if they think they can make more money by raising their prices they will, and then you decide if their products are worth what they’re asking or not.


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## lettucehat (Sep 28, 2021)

I think it's poor form and everything to double the price while simultaneously having a 50% off sale, but having said that... there are enough things on the surface to suggest that there's more going on behind the scenes than some decision to be shitty. The pricing changes are mostly totally reasonable for products that are still solid and have been updated over the years (and yes I know that there are bugs that persist for years as well). Other companies that maintain their products don't seem to do the gradual price increase thing much, but on the flip side, they also don't do sales to the extent that Cinesamples has in recent years. So what is a list price in the end really?

More than anything it seems experimental. They've taken some of their most popular products and raised the prices by different amounts. Perhaps they expect the Tina Guo price hike to fail but just want to see. Maybe they become more like 8dio after this and the list prices don't matter like they used to. Who knows - until they start showing what these big updates and changes are it's hard for me personally to judge price hikes in isolation.


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## lettucehat (Sep 28, 2021)

thesteelydane said:


> I just don’t get the outrage. It’s a business, if they think they can make more money by raising their prices they will, and then you decide if their products are worth what they’re asking or not.


I agree with everything you've said but want to add one thing here - I think there _is_ an exception when the price hike is totally out of line with the quality of the product or (in theory) it's just too much. I don't think either is the case here with Cinesamples, but I can definitely think of other companies whose sales policies, quality, and general attitude combine to legitimately turn people off, for good reason.

With Cinesamples, I think genuinely raising the price on Tina Guo is hardball but fair. If it even stays there though. Your point about sales is taken. These days you are either one of the steadfast companies are you are always on sale. Top tier: Spectrasonics. Next tier: Orchestral Tools, Cinematic Studio. Next tier: Spitfire, VSL. After that it's constant sales territory!


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## CT (Sep 28, 2021)

thesteelydane said:


> With that in mind, if you had a catalogue of products that was old, but still desired by customers, wouldn’t you raise the price too?


Maybe not without making an upfront statement about it first instead of veiling it behind a sale, and probably not at all, in fact, if I'd be essentially the only one out of a group of comparable competitors to do so, especially if the others are going in the _opposite_ direction. 

The only real plus here is the AFM players who presumably get paid better for their contributions. I'd rather hire a few of them myself than go through Cinesamples at this point though.


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## Rudianos (Sep 28, 2021)

I believe that the customer and business relationship should both be collaborative and very importantly, adversarial. Us talking about this and keeping the public aware is a crucial part of this process. We must continue to be aware of these shifts as a data point in commerce. Everyone is free to set prices, everyone is free to negotiate value on both sides, being aware of what was and is - fun times!


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## thesteelydane (Sep 28, 2021)

lettucehat said:


> I agree with everything you've said but want to add one thing here - I think there _is_ an exception when the price hike is totally out of line with the quality of the product or (in theory) it's just too much. I don't think either is the case here with Cinesamples, but I can definitely think of other companies whose sales policies, quality, and general attitude combine to legitimately turn people off, for good reason.
> 
> With Cinesamples, I think genuinely raising the price on Tina Guo is hardball but fair. If it even stays there though. Your point about sales is taken. These days you are either one of the steadfast companies are you are always on sale. Top tier: Spectrasonics. Next tier: Orchestral Tools, Cinematic Studio. Next tier: Spitfire, VSL. After that it's constant sales territory!


I agree. They must have made an educated guess that it won’t hurt their bottom line in the short term or their reputation in the long term - which would be the beginning of the end for the company.

And yes, I wish I had never run a sale in my life for my own business, but now it’s impossible to get out of if I want to make a living.


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## thesteelydane (Sep 28, 2021)

Michaelt said:


> Maybe not without making an upfront statement about it first instead of veiling it behind a sale, and probably not at all, in fact, if I'd be essentially the only one out of a group of comparable competitors to do so, especially if the others are going in the _opposite_ direction.
> 
> The only real plus here is the AFM players who presumably get paid better for their contributions. I'd rather hire a few of them myself than go through Cinesamples at this point though.


I don’t disagree, and it’s what I meant with the “honesty in advertising’ comment.


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## Casiquire (Sep 28, 2021)

A lot of people are bringing up inflation, but that's not how inflation works. I run a business outside of music and sampling, and we raise prices every year for inflation and then also give everyone a raise, so everyone's happy and everyone knows what to expect. We've seen some devs raise prices on old material before: EastWest, whom I'm known to be very critical of, did it the right way. They offered their products for extremely cheap for a long while before re-releasing them with a big update in a nice bundle with new scripting and instruments. That's totally fair. 

There's also depreciation. People often say, and i agree to an extent, that well recorded samples don't lose value over time. That's true that well recorded samples will always be well recorded, but the software they're in, the style they were recorded playing, and the way they're edited can and do depreciate. Probably much faster than inflation. 

There's also the matter of the value of old libraries being affected by current markets. In this day and age the markets are more saturated than they were; the value of the Cineseries is affected by that

This was a bad move in every way.


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## Bman70 (Sep 28, 2021)

VI-C is a bit strange and OCD about VI buying, we track sales and lowest prices and remember them through the year, usually holding off buying until the sale recurs. That might not be representative of the sample buying market at large, so the hike might be received more favorably than it is here. Or even largely unnoticed. 

But I at least won't be buying from them for some time, as I watch to see wtf is behind the volatility. I mean if they're tanking and not saying anything, might as well be careful not to end up with unsupported VIs. 

I can easily pass up their stuff this holiday season, especially with Spitfire and OT consistently releasing new goodies. Glad I got Tina Guo 1&2 for about $70 total "back in the day." 

Honestly, I think I can find a substitute or better for everything Cinesamples offers. I also prefer companies that are more active in the forum, at least stopping in to address concerns like this.


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## cqd (Sep 28, 2021)

If they knock out free rewritten updates in the not too distant future I think they're entitled to price them as they see fit..

(Although I do say that having bought pretty much all I want at 50% off the old prices..)


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## Gingerbread (Sep 28, 2021)

Yeah, I don't buy the inflation argument. Businesses raise prices for inflation because their supply expenses are also becoming more expensive. But an old library? What continued supply is there? The sunk costs are in the past. While there have been small periodic scripting updates, they have been few and far between, not really an argument for recent inflation in 2021.

Moreover, if that were a real argument, we'd be seeing it across the sample library industry. As far as I can tell, CS is alone in raising their prices this way.

Ultimately, it's a supply/demand issue. If people keep buying them at the new pricing, then they made the right decision for themselves. If they don't, then they didn't.


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## lettucehat (Sep 28, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> A lot of people are bringing up inflation, but that's not how inflation works. I run a business outside of music and sampling, and we raise prices every year for inflation and then also give everyone a raise, so everyone's happy and everyone knows what to expect. We've seen some devs raise prices on old material before: EastWest, whom I'm known to be very critical of, did it the right way. They offered their products for extremely cheap for a long while before re-releasing them with a big update in a nice bundle with new scripting and instruments. That's totally fair.
> 
> There's also depreciation. People often say, and i agree to an extent, that well recorded samples don't lose value over time. That's true that well recorded samples will always be well recorded, but the software they're in, the style they were recorded playing, and the way they're edited can and do depreciate. Probably much faster than inflation.
> 
> ...


Of course it's how inflation works, it doesn't matter if you do it every year or not. The prices have gone up over time. But people are only bringing up inflation because most of the price hikes are extremely modest over the timeframe they've existed and somewhat comparable to inflation. It's not like Cinesamples came out and said "we are adjusting our prices for inflation". And obviously no one's justifying the TG price hike with inflation.

EastWest trying to charge way too much for an _update_ that brings their products' usability up to modern standards, after suggesting people buy up all components of Hollywood Orchestra to get the best upgrade price, and then dropping the price within months (no particular occasion, not Black Friday) and making it available to anyone who has a single component of Hollywood Orchestra is probably the best example I can think of of how not to do it.

And in no way comparable to just changing the list price of products.


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## thesteelydane (Sep 28, 2021)

Gingerbread said:


> What continued supply is there?


Employees salary?


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## Robin Thompson (Sep 28, 2021)

Between months of hints that big things are coming, months of not much actually coming, and constant sales and now price hikes to drum up revenue, I feel like any day now they're either going to announce a ton of new stuff... or bankruptcy. Possibly they don't know which yet.

I hope the former. I'm all in on Cinesymphony thanks to a Native Instruments sale when I was starting out, and I love the sound of their stuff. But I can't afford to help them any further, and I don't think their relative radio silence is helping things.


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## Paul Jelfs (Sep 28, 2021)

Just about all of the big sample companies have pulled something at one point or other. I don't think it is a good practice, but I DO think that with the market being so crowded and so many indie or one person start ups, it is getting more and more difficult to stay afloat in the current climate. At the end of the day the market will decide, but I would hate to see any of the sample makers go out of business.


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## Gingerbread (Sep 28, 2021)

thesteelydane said:


> Employees salary?


Isn't that true of every other developer? Why hasn't anyone else raised prices on old legacy libraries?


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## Casiquire (Sep 28, 2021)

lettucehat said:


> Of course it's how inflation works, it doesn't matter if you do it every year or not. The prices have gone up over time. But people are only bringing up inflation because most of the price hikes are extremely modest over the timeframe they've existed and somewhat comparable to inflation. It's not like Cinesamples came out and said "we are adjusting our prices for inflation". And obviously no one's justifying the TG price hike with inflation.
> 
> EastWest trying to charge way too much for an _update_ that brings their products' usability up to modern standards, after suggesting people buy up all components of Hollywood Orchestra to get the best upgrade price, and then dropping the price within months (no particular occasion, not Black Friday) and making it available to anyone who has a single component of Hollywood Orchestra is probably the best example I can think of of how not to do it.
> 
> And in no way comparable to just changing the list price of products.


I disagree. The part i agree with is the fact that their customer service encouraged people here to buy them all up. That was a bad move. For anyone not knee deep in the forums though, EW did it better. Drop the price on the old product, raise the price on the new, give everyone who owns any part of it a discount. At that point drop the price again if you want. I don't see any issue with that. But don't raise your prices then pretend to put it on sale


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## Robert_G (Sep 28, 2021)

Gingerbread said:


> Yeah, I don't buy the inflation argument. Businesses raise prices for inflation because their supply expenses are also becoming more expensive. But an old library? What continued supply is there? The sunk costs are in the past. While there have been small periodic scripting updates, they have been few and far between, not really an argument for recent inflation in 2021.
> 
> Moreover, if that were a real argument, we'd be seeing it across the sample library industry. As far as I can tell, CS is alone in raising their prices this way.
> 
> Ultimately, it's a supply/demand issue. If people keep buying them at the new pricing, then they made the right decision for themselves. If they don't, then they didn't.


Agree totally. All the costs have been paid. These libraries are literally 'copies' of software sitting in a 'cart' store with multi hundred dollar price tags beside them. Cinesamples broke even years ago on these....everything now is just gravy....and the price of Bandwidth has dropped through the floor since they were made. There is no excuse. What I see is new ownership (correct me if I'm wrong) coming in and wanting to make some easy money on a product that the previous ownership made. They are hoping to find new customers who have zero price memory.

Like others have said.....IF.....there were some major updates....sure....possibly....but just a price increase on 10 year old software.....no thanks. It would be interesting to know how their sales respond to this.



Robin Thompson said:


> Between months of hints that big things are coming, months of not much actually coming, and constant sales and now price hikes to drum up revenue, I feel like any day now they're either going to announce a ton of new stuff... or bankruptcy. Possibly they don't know which yet.


My gut says the same thing. Didn't they just get new ownership? My experience with companies changing ownership usually sees them ending with bankruptcy or major changes to a point that turns everyone off both customers and employees.


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## thesteelydane (Sep 28, 2021)

Gingerbread said:


> Isn't that true of every other developer? Why hasn't anyone else raised prices on old legacy libraries?


True. Just saying...


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## jcrosby (Sep 28, 2021)

Jackdaw said:


> If I recall correctly, Tina Guo and Taylor Davis libraries that I bought earlier this year cost $99 each before sale...


That's correct!


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## Daren Audio (Sep 28, 2021)

mgaewsj said:


> exactly:
> "we believe the new pricing structure more accurately reflects the value of these libraries and the work that went into producing them" 😲
> 
> at least they should have announced it *before* the sale!


Instagram users noticed the price hike and brought it to their attention but their comments were deleted so that's not a good look:

post-4910605






Tina Guo Scoring Competition


Haven't seen anything posted on this yet. Seems pretty open, basically just song length seems the only limitation.




vi-control.net


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## szczaw (Sep 28, 2021)

It's EW in reverse.


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## Geoff Grace (Sep 28, 2021)

Expanding the topic a bit, our rate of inflation has increased by over 5% in a little over a year. That's quite a climb from the low in May 2020!

(Source)

Best,

Geoff


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## MA-Simon (Sep 29, 2021)

Yeah, no. They raised all Tina Guo Prices by more then 50% JUST before starting a Tina Guo Scoring competition. That is one heck of a shady-ass move. My opinion of Cinesamples has changed accordingly.


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## easyrider (Sep 29, 2021)

MA-Simon said:


> Yeah, no. They raised all Tina Guo Prices by more then 50% JUST before starting a Tina Guo Scoring competition. That is one heck of a shady-ass move. My opinion of Cinesamples has changed accordingly.



Wow pretty low…


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## handz (Sep 29, 2021)

reids said:


> Wow, that is a tacky move on Cinesamples part! Was this what they were talking about a few months ago when they said they take care of their customers...by hiking the prices and stating its half off?


Well if you are their customer you already have the products so the hike wont affect you


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## handz (Sep 29, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> raising the price on purpose during or just before doing a huge sale, resulting that the discount isn't actually over the normal price, but the increased price (so you as customer end up pay much more, in an unfair way) is illegal in many countries. (customer protection etc)


It is illegal only partially, if you raise the price month before the sale you are safe. Sadly. But rising price and then making Sale is a common practice done by every large company. Even though it is practically a fraud. You rice price by 15% then make 30% sale... so in reality 15% Sadly tons of people get caught. 

If this is the case here, it is sad. I always was a big fan of Cinebrass.


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## handz (Sep 29, 2021)

ka00 said:


> Just to play devil's advocate here for a sec. When were these libraries released? Isn't CineBrass like 10 years old? There isn't anything inherently taking away the value of the library is there? Especially if they do scripting and interface updates and things like that.
> 
> How much did they bump up the price? Less than 10% on the full price? How much has inflation been in the last 10 years?
> 
> ...


A weird way of thinking with inflation - the library is already made, inflation doesn't cause any additional costs for the developer. Yes, it is like 10 years old! TEN YEARS, and the CORE costs 429 now!!! CSB is 399! and it is a new library. I love Cinebrasss core but for 429? This is a joke....

It should be like 250-300 normally now to be competitive. 

There weren't any really great updates for CB core, it is still good but an old library lacking many things that libs like CSB have.


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## ka00 (Sep 29, 2021)

handz said:


> It should be like 250-300 normally now to be competitive.


Okay, sure, let's say that's what it should be priced at... but even before the price hike, I bought it for $200. Because it was 50% off.

At the new price, of $429 (7.5% more expensive than before), I would have still have waited for a 50% sale, and it would have been $215. Which is still under what you suggest it is worth or would be competitive at. And that's the hole CS has dug themselves into; the 50% off sales once per year.

If most of CineSample's prospective customers have been trained to wait for these mega sales, then the company will rarely be able sell their library for what they're worth, no?

And as for costs having already been spent back in 2010... With my "weird way of thinking" I don't buy that logic. I'm no economist, clearly. But if someone bought a house 20 years ago, they should sell it for what they paid? No, they sell it for what the market says it's worth today, and this is also related to the value of today's currency.

Of course, real estate is its own animal so it's not a fully fair comparison, but CineSamples as a company has fixed operating costs that do go up year to year with inflation (salaries, rent, R&D, marketing, etc). And even though the bulk of their flagship products were made some years in the past, those libraries are likely still the main source of their revenue.

But I do fully agree that they should have publicized and marketed the price hike in advance of it happening. They could have even used it as an opportunity for an "old price sale, buy it while it's cheaper". Strezov Sampling did something like that before they switched to pricing everything in Euros, I think. That gave people motivation and an opportunity to buy it before the prices went up.

And I do fully agree that the Tina Guo price increase seems egregious. Doubling is a slap in the face. It could have been mitigated by a warning period and a sale that goes along with it.

Anyway, the whole thing could have been handled better. But really, none of us know what's going on behind the scenes so all we can do is complain and speculate.


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## cqd (Sep 29, 2021)

I don't know why the Tina guo stuff isn't just one library..


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## handz (Sep 29, 2021)

ka00 said:


> Okay, sure, let's say that's what it should be priced at... but even before the price hike, I bought it for $200. Because it was 50% off.
> 
> At the new price, of $429 (7.5% more expensive than before), I would have still have waited for a 50% sale, and it would have been $215. Which is still under what you suggest it is worth or would be competitive at. And that's the hole CS has dug themselves into; the 50% off sales once per year.
> 
> ...


Yeah but that is with sale... CSB will be on sale too I believe and then again it will be around same price as CB which will make CB expensive... 

As you write - House is not a product comparable to an aged sample library. Properties are investments, libraries are like a new car, they losing value since day 1 after purchase as there are always some newer and better libs in the making. Did you ever see old Software go up in price? Like 10 years old version of Cubase? or iPhone6 No... as they are obsolete or have limited usability and competitive products are better for the same price. 

The fact Cinesamples have no newer libraries does not matter, you always have to stay competitive. Their NEW library can be more expensive than the old were - that is fine. But hiking price on old software? Nope. 

They sell downloadable software - it is really not like they have to be paying 100 employees. Inflation really not hurts them in a way it affected let's say construction companies.


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## AllanH (Sep 29, 2021)

East West did this a few years ago. My recollection is that they added about $100 to each of the products, and adjusted the "on sale" discounts accordingly.


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## Drundfunk (Sep 29, 2021)

Plenty of other developers around. Sure the sound of Cinebrass is awesome, but in comparison to other offerings it's also quite outdated. I think they are overestimating their position in the sample market a little bit. With that pricing policy I'll simply won't buy from Cinesamples again (apart from that their latest offerings are all quite underwhelming). Sample libraries should get cheaper over the years, not more expensive... .


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## handz (Sep 29, 2021)

ka00 said:


> You make some good points. But this one I quoted, I think, is probably in the eye of the beholder. CS likely doesn't agree that their libraries are obsolete. And maybe that's up to prospective buyers to research and decide for themselves.
> 
> 
> I get what you mean, but this has more to do with the entropy of physical, mechanical products exposed to the elements and wear and tear. And sample libraries are part software part beautiful recordings, the latter of which doesn't depreciate.


Well then they should open their eyes, 10 years is a long time in the sample world. Of course, it is not obsolete, but it is far from the current standard in many ways. I still love the sound of it, it has one of the best brass tones for me, but... the core has super limited articulations and patch options. The concurrence offers more for the same or less

With car ok, mechanical side of thing, but software or electronics - it is not about wear and tear, but simply because newer and better items being made. The recording - yes, right, but that is also the problem - you cant compensate for the lack of recorded material, and this is how libraries get old -old programming and lack of recorded material (you can update scripting but when there is not enough samples - you cant do much)

this is what EW did right with the Opus edition, they also took the old library but also added a ton of new material and completely new programing - then you can justify the higher price.


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## cqd (Sep 29, 2021)

I'd say we should hold off on giving out too much until we see the updates..


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## Loerpert (Sep 29, 2021)

I went into the Wayback machine to confirm this. Well... No more Cinesamples for me  Too bad, I like the sound..


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## wlinart (Sep 29, 2021)

cqd said:


> I don't know why the Tina guo stuff isn't just one library..


On the same note: i think cinebrass should also be 1 product


----------



## RogiervG (Sep 29, 2021)

wlinart said:


> On the same note: i think cinebrass should also be 1 product


And cinewinds too..


----------



## Tremendouz (Sep 29, 2021)

wlinart said:


> On the same note: i think cinebrass should also be 1 product


I don't know, "modular" libraries are better for the customer in my opniion since you can choose to buy only part of the thing if you don't need it all (I don't want everything CinePerc has and thus will never buy it since it's so expensive). But the incompleteness should be reflected in the price too.

I'd absolutely love if it was possible to buy single instruments from different libraries but without paying more in total if you complete your collection bit by bit


----------



## wlinart (Sep 29, 2021)

Tremendouz said:


> I don't know, "modular" libraries are better for the customer in my opniion since you can choose to buy only part of the thing if you don't need it all (I don't want everything CinePerc has and thus will never buy it since it's so expensive). But the incompleteness should be reflected in the price too.
> 
> I'd absolutely love if it was possible to buy single instruments from different libraries but without paying more in total if you complete your collection bit by bit


Yes, but it's not fully modular. And some of the instruments are literally spread between the core and the pro version. For example horns of the deep as a seperate product is ok imo, because that one is a seperate sound. But spreading the trumpet ensemble between those 2 is just a ploy to get us to buy both of them.
That is something OT has right with their single instruments possibility.


----------



## easyrider (Sep 29, 2021)

Loerpert said:


> I went into the Wayback machine to confirm this. Well... No more Cinesamples for me  Too bad, I like the sound..



Tina Guo…99 v 179…..

They might just be on forever sale at 89…


----------



## Iosonopie (Sep 29, 2021)

I noticed some time ago they don't sell their libraries on Native Instruments website anymore 🤷🏻‍♂


----------



## Bman70 (Sep 29, 2021)

ka00 said:


> I'm no economist, clearly. But if someone bought a house 20 years ago, they should sell it for what they paid? No, they sell it for what the market says it's worth today, and this is also related to the value of today's currency.


Lol at least you admitted you're no economist. Comparing software to "real property" i.e. land is completely baseless. Land appreciates in large part because of scarcity... while a piece of software is infinitely reproducible, the opposite of scarcity. Look at even motor vehicles, no matter how much you paid resale will always be less.


----------



## easyrider (Sep 29, 2021)

Iosonopie said:


> I noticed some time ago they don't sell their libraries on Native Instruments website anymore 🤷🏻‍♂



I don’t think developers have to sell on NI site…


----------



## Loerpert (Sep 29, 2021)

ka00 said:


> Infinite reproducibility has no impact in the inherent value of a library because the market itself is not infinite. What matters for the value is a) the size of the market demand, and b) the perceived quality to price ratio of the product on offer in comparison with the competition.
> 
> Reproducibility doesn't really matter because if times are tough and sales are low, they can can't just reproduce ten million copies to solve their problems. These copies/licenses have to be sold.
> 
> ...



There's nothing wrong with increasing the price of your product. There is something fishy however about increasing the price of your product and instantly putting it on a sale to create a false sense of urgency.


----------



## cqd (Sep 29, 2021)

Loerpert said:


> There's nothing wrong with increasing the price of your product. There is something fishy however about increasing the price of your product and instantly putting it on a sale to create a false sense of urgency.


But like..they've been doing sales pretty much all year..


----------



## dunamisstudio (Sep 29, 2021)

Loerpert said:


> I went into the Wayback machine to confirm this. Well... No more Cinesamples for me  Too bad, I like the sound..


Ouch.

I had noticed the price hike looking at CinePerc and CineBrass.
CinePerc use to be 699, now 749 USD
CineBrass Bundle use to be 999, now 1199 USD
With no upgrade path in sight for bundles, I'll skip CineBrass.


----------



## Loerpert (Sep 29, 2021)

cqd said:


> But like..they've been doing sales pretty much all year..



Yes, but I still don't see how that would justify practices like these.


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## cqd (Sep 29, 2021)

Loerpert said:


> Yes, but I still don't see how that would justify practices like these.


Well like, whenever they upped the price it would be before a sale..


----------



## Bman70 (Sep 29, 2021)

ka00 said:


> Infinite reproducibility has no impact in the inherent value of a library because the market itself is not infinite. What matters for the value is a) the size of the market demand, and b) the perceived quality to price ratio of the product on offer in comparison with the competition.
> 
> Reproducibility doesn't really matter because if times are tough and sales are low, they can can't just reproduce ten million copies to solve their problems. These copies/licenses have to be sold.
> 
> ...



You appear to know more about it than I do.  I don't know what infinite vs. finite markets means. I wasn't addressing markets, but supply. Which is the reason real property (land, of which only a fixed amount exists) appreciates, while personal property manufactured items depreciate. But no worries, we're all speculating anyway and the consensus seems to be Cinesamples isn't the sharpest tool in the shed.


----------



## easyrider (Sep 29, 2021)

It’s like Spitfire increasing the price by 40% then offering 40% off….

People are not mugs….I was genuinely going to buy Tina Guo…but this has left a bad taste…


----------



## CeDur (Sep 29, 2021)

easyrider said:


> It’s like Spitfire increasing the price by 40% then offering 40% off….


In that case the product will be cheaper than originally sold


----------



## Bman70 (Sep 29, 2021)

CeDur said:


> In that case the product will be cheaper than originally sold


Yes it would be equivalent to just offering a 16% off sale. Does anyone have the old CS price structure? I can make a flyer showing the REAL current sale prices. Lol


----------



## easyrider (Sep 29, 2021)

CeDur said:


> In that case the product will be cheaper than originally sold



Doh!


----------



## Iosonopie (Sep 29, 2021)

easyrider said:


> I don’t think developers have to sell on NI site…


Of course!

But I once bought cinebrass from NI site: 
200€ incl. Vat.

From cinesamples website was: 
200 USD + 22% vat - exchange from $ to €

Similar but simpler ahah


----------



## Tremendouz (Sep 29, 2021)

Iosonopie said:


> Of course!
> 
> But I once bought cinebrass from NI site:
> 200€ incl. Vat.
> ...


The latter is actually around €10 more expensive at the moment.


----------



## Casiquire (Sep 29, 2021)

Bman70 said:


> Lol at least you admitted you're no economist. Comparing software to "real property" i.e. land is completely baseless. Land appreciates in large part because of scarcity... while a piece of software is infinitely reproducible, the opposite of scarcity. Look at even motor vehicles, no matter how much you paid resale will always be less.


But the point still stands. You're selling into a market you don't entirely control. They can control the price but not the value


----------



## dts_marin (Sep 29, 2021)

Maybe they're into the crypto thing: Cinesamples to the moon! 📈🚀🌑


----------



## borisb2 (Sep 29, 2021)

... just reading all this.

As much as I love and use Cinesamples - well, the actual samples, apparently not the company - this is an absolute NO GO in my opinion ... Cinestrings Core raised from 399.- to 529.- without adding any fart of new feature.

I would imagine this is more or less unique in the history of the music- or rather any industry.

Sure as hell this marketing is going to backfire 10-fold. Whoever is responsible for that marketing-move should be banned from any further strategic corporate decision on ANY company ... 

Without being a sales-expert I would assume it's one of the 101-basic rules for a sale to add some - ANY - value to a product before raising its price 10 years later.


----------



## Bman70 (Sep 29, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> But the point still stands. You're selling into a market you don't entirely control. They can control the price but not the value


I think we're all making valiant attempts at different points.  This is why we're musicians hheheh


----------



## Bman70 (Sep 29, 2021)

borisb2 said:


> ... just reading all this.
> 
> As much as I love and use Cinesamples - well, the actual samples, apparently not the company - this is an absolute NO GO in my opinion ... Cinestrings Core raised from 399.- to 529.- without adding any fart of new feature.
> 
> ...



It's probably a revenge sale for how people reacted to the Continuum Guitars release.


----------



## Robin Thompson (Sep 29, 2021)

borisb2 said:


> ... just reading all this.
> 
> As much as I love and use Cinesamples - well, the actual samples, apparently not the company - this is an absolute NO GO in my opinion ... Cinestrings Core raised from 399.- to 529.- without adding any fart of new feature.
> 
> ...


Not to step on your point, which I largely agree with, just want to make a quick correction that I do believe Cinestrings Core was 499 previously, not 399.


----------



## lettucehat (Sep 29, 2021)

borisb2 said:


> As much as I love and use Cinesamples - well, the actual samples, apparently not the company - this is an absolute NO GO in my opinion ... Cinestrings Core raised from 399.- to 529.- without adding any fart of new feature.


I'm mostly staying out of the discussion at this point because I think everyone is on the same page about the Tina Guo and Taylor Davis and all subsequent reaction mainly comes from that, but CineStrings Core has been 499 for as long as I can remember. I know because I constantly don't buy it. $30 list price increase.

Factoring in that everything is almost always 50% off these days (or just a few weeks from going 50% off), most of the price increases are something like $15-$25 - and the $25 increases are on bundles or CinePerc which is basically a bundle you can't break up. Cinesamples became a constant sale company like 8dio some time ago and their libraries are still almost all much cheaper in reality than they used to be. Again, I know because I used to wait a long time for sales to gradually buy the stuff. I know increasing prices at any point is still against the grain, but let's not get carried away. Call me optimistic, but I don't think we'd be seeing such outrage if they were all $30-50 increases. Maybe bemusement?


----------



## zwhita (Sep 29, 2021)

If Cinesamples started offering worthwhile upgrades to their current scripting foibles, I'd happily pay a $15 fee.(looking at you Cinestrings Core)

It's up to people like the members of this forum to spread the word that Cinesamples is taking a risk that won't be worth it for them in the long term. Whether that means encouraging some kind of boycott or demanding that they upgrade all of their products first, unless potential customers are made aware of this, such unethical practices may continue unabated.


----------



## robgb (Sep 29, 2021)

Everything is already overpriced anyway, in my opinion. But maybe that's just me.


----------



## oepion (Sep 29, 2021)

I thought I'd provide some further insight as I've religiously been taking screenshots of sale prices for most developers over the past year after a few negative experiences with 8DIO.

CineSamples seem to have increased the prices of some libraries while reducing that of others so it's not all black & white. I will be writing the prices as follows: Xmas/NY sale on the left, current prices on the right.

Price hikes:
CinePiano $119 vs $124.50
CineStrings CORE + CineBrass CORE $319 vs $427
Tina Guo Acoustic Cello Legato $59 vs $89.50
Tina Guo Vol 2 $59 vs $89.50
Taylor Davis $59 vs $89.50

Price drops:
CineBrass CORE $239 vs $214.50
CineBrass PRO $239 vs $214.50
CinePerc $419 vs $374.50
CineStrings Core $299 vs $264.50
CineStrings SOLO $239 vs $214.50

I have left out the bundles as those were 60% off during Xmas/NY whereas they're only 50% at the moment. Hopefully this provides some insight.


----------



## borisb2 (Sep 29, 2021)

Robin Thompson said:


> Not to step on your point, which I largely agree with, just want to make a quick correction that I do believe Cinestrings Core was 499 previously, not 399.


Well then sorry about that - thought it was 399.-…

I bought those scoring guitars by the way some time ago . they are not that bad 👍


----------



## Dirtgrain (Sep 29, 2021)

In Influence, Robert Cialdini wrote about a liquor company (Crown Royal, maybe, but I don't recall for sure) initially tried to market their new whisky as a cheap one. Nobody bought it. They then, using the same whiskey, priced it quite a bit higher, as a premium whiskey, and their whiskey became popular and regarded as a quality liquor. 

Maybe Cinesamples is trying the same move in a way, although they've been around long enough. I don't see it working, but who knows . . .


----------



## Futchibon (Sep 29, 2021)

oepion said:


> I thought I'd provide some further insight as I've religiously been taking screenshots of sale prices for most developers over the past year after a few negative experiences with 8DIO.
> 
> ...................................
> 
> ...


Do you have screenshots for this? At the last 50% off sale (before this one) I could swear Cinebrass Core and Pro were both $199.50 each.


----------



## oepion (Sep 29, 2021)

Futchibon said:


> Do you have screenshots for this? At the last 50% off sale (before this one) I could swear Cinebrass Core and Pro were both $199.50 each.


Yes you're right I do have screenshots of the NI sale from April showing $199.50 for both CineBrass Pro and Core. It seems those were the lowest prices I've ever captured with my screenshots. I'd imagine we might see those prices again during BF?

By the way, CineSamples was running 60% off bundles during Xmas/NY, so for someone wanting both CineBrass Core & Pro, it was possible to get both + CineBrass Sonore + CineBrass 12 Horns for $399.


----------



## Drumdude2112 (Sep 30, 2021)

Futchibon said:


> Do you have screenshots for this? At the last 50% off sale (before this one) I could swear Cinebrass Core and Pro were both $199.50 each.



They were indeed


----------



## ed buller (Sep 30, 2021)

It's like Vegas hotel prices

e


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen (Sep 30, 2021)

I paid $199 for CineBrass Core in October 2020


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## mgaewsj (Sep 30, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> I paid $199 for CineBrass Core in October 2020


I paid $199 for Cinebrass Pro in August 2021


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## oepion (Sep 30, 2021)

@Futchibon, just had another look at those screenshots (have them across multiple computers so I didn't have all of them at hand yesterday), there were a few more "50% sales everything" this year with the prices you've mentioned. The prices I posted originally were actually 40% off single products and 60% off bundles, that's why some libraries were actually cheaper now (CineStrings, CineBrass etc.), as they were only 40% off back then. My mistake I should have paid more attention, the prices have definitely gone up across the entire range.


----------



## LamaRose (Sep 30, 2021)

Well, we were warned in the first quarter that something special was coming in May... maybe they meant "quarante" as in %, instead of "quatre" as in strings. An honest mistake, imho.


----------



## vision.noise (Nov 2, 2021)

easyrider said:


> It’s like Spitfire increasing the price by 40% then offering 40% off….
> 
> People are not mugs….I was genuinely going to buy Tina Guo…but this has left a bad taste…


Was this just a sarcastic example or have SF done this?  Also, has the Tina Guo Acoustic Cello Bundle come up in price as well? That on sale has them both slightly less than individual prices during the NI sale ($59 IIRC).


----------



## easyrider (Nov 2, 2021)

vision.noise said:


> Was this just an example or have SF done this? Also, has the Tina Guo Acoustic Cello Bundle come up in price as well? That on sale has them both slightly less than during individual prices during the NI sale (IIRC that it was $59 then).



Just an example….🤓


----------



## vision.noise (Nov 2, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Just an example….🤓


Phew.


----------



## rMancer (Nov 2, 2021)

Raising the price by 40% and then offering 40% off the new price is still 16% cheaper than list price


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## artomatic (Nov 2, 2021)

Lost respect for them. I was going to grab Cineperc but no longer.
I'm saving it for BF sale instead.
Isn't this sort of thing illegal?


----------



## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 2, 2021)

Hey everybody! Steve from Cinesamples here, I wanted to jump in and address this discussion regarding the recent pricing structure adjustment. Mike Patti went into some detail about this decision here:






Cinesamples on Vi-Control


Always been a fan of your stuff! Actually, when I first wanted to get into orchestral music, I searched "realistic trumpet virtual instrument", and Cinebrass was the page that came up first. Bought it right away, and I have almost all your instruments. If I may, I would be very happy if you...



vi-control.net





The recent retail pricing structure change is an indefinite change, unrelated to any sales. We have a huge number of exciting updates and upgrades for various products in the works, alongside some other major projects. We know it's probably seemed like we haven't been up to much this year, and this is very much not the case. We have a lot of things coming together all around the same time, and I'll be keeping everyone here on the forum up to speed on what's new as it becomes available.

We recognize that making this price change without announcement or explanation was a concern for many people, and this feedback has been helpful to us in changing our ways of communicating with customers. In large part, this has led to us re-engaging here on VI-Control, so we can connect directly with our users.

I'm here to answer any questions you may have (as best I can without blowing any surprises and bringing down the Hammer of Marketing on my head). Let me know if you have any questions about libraries you're considering, I'd be happy to help you decide if a library is right for you or not!


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 2, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> Hey everybody! Steve from Cinesamples here, I wanted to jump in and address this discussion regarding the recent pricing structure adjustment. Mike Patti went into some detail about this decision here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks. 

I think many CineStrings Core users would be very happy if the update came out this month


----------



## Robert_G (Nov 2, 2021)

If your price increase is based on upgrades and updates, then why are the increases in effect before the upgrades and updates are completed and available? You can always charge an upgrade/update fee when it's released.


----------



## muziksculp (Nov 2, 2021)

Robert_G said:


> If your price increase is based on upgrades and updates, then why are the increases in effect before the upgrades and updates are completed and available? You can always charge an upgrade/update fee when it's released.


I guess to pay for the work needed to make the updates.


----------



## jaketanner (Nov 2, 2021)

I am very excited about the strings updates...Kind of wish i had purchased the brass too if it's getting an update, but I am covered for now. I love the sound of the strings...looking forward to a better playability.


----------



## PaulComp (Nov 2, 2021)

I have to admit that my experience of the pricing changes to Continuum Guitars left a bit of a bad taste for me. I purchased the product during their Memorial Day Sale at 60% discount. Then very shortly afterwards they permanently dropped the non-sale price by a substantial amount.


----------



## Robert_G (Nov 2, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I guess to pay for the work needed to make the updates.


Hmm.....trying to think of another sample library company that has done that.....nope.....cant think of one.


----------



## axb312 (Nov 2, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I guess to pay for the work needed to make the updates.


So several years of minimal updates and continuous sales are not enough to sustain the current update costs? Doesn't make much sense to me...


----------



## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 2, 2021)

Robert_G said:


> If your price increase is based on upgrades and updates, then why are the increases in effect before the upgrades and updates are completed and available? You can always charge an upgrade/update fee when it's released.


Hey Robert_G, thanks for sharing your thoughts, happy to answer! We chose to go forward with the pricing changes all at once rather than change prices piecemeal as products get updated and upgraded. We know the price change hasn't been a popular move in general, and it was not a decision that we made lightly.

Cinesamples went through a massive transition in the past year. Since January 2021, we have more than quintupled the size of our team, and have expanded the scope of our company's mission to inspire the music creator in everyone. We believe very strongly in the value of our products, and are also always looking for ways to improve them and serve the needs of our customers.

We have several different updates and upgrades in the works, alongside development of new products. We know it's been frustrating and that people have been waiting a long time, and that it must seem like we haven't been doing much. We're going to be sharing some sneak previews of what's coming soon for the existing product line updates, and we're also very close to making some huge announcements.

We only charge upgrade fees in the case of a library that was originally released without Kontakt Player/NKS encoding, that is then sent to Native Instruments for this compatibility upgrade. We have done this in the past with CineWinds CORE and PRO, as well as CinePerc, and most recently with Piano In Blue. We have similar upgrades coming very soon for Drums of War 1+2, Deep Percussion Beds 1+2 and CineOrch.

The massive upcoming update for CineStrings CORE and the subsequent coming updates for the CineSymphony line over 2022 will be free for existing owners. These are incredibly in-depth updates for each library, and we expect it to take several months or even longer to roll out to the entire series. Our sample team has gone through tens of thousands of samples by hand for noise reduction and editing for timing for CineStrings CORE; the GUI has been completely redesigned; and the whole thing is getting scripting updates. This is a huge endeavor, and we are committed to delivering the best possible quality that we can.

Once again, all of these updates and upgrades are happening alongside development of new products, and the information I'm sharing here barely scratches the surface of what I'll be able to share soon. I appreciate your candor in your questions, and I know these matters are uncomfortable to discuss. I hope this helps clarify the situation around the pricing structure change and upcoming updates.

We are currently running our November Sale, with up to 50% off select products and bundles. If you have any questions about products you've had your eye on, I'd be happy to help you decide whether or not you'd like to pick it up!


----------



## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 2, 2021)

PaulComp said:


> I have to admit that my experience of the pricing changes to Continuum Guitars left a bit of a bad taste for me. I purchased the product during their Memorial Day Sale at 60% discount. Then very shortly afterwards they permanently dropped the non-sale price by a substantial amount.


Hey PaulComp, thanks for this feedback! Continuum Guitars did drop significantly in price shortly after it was released. This product was not priced correctly at launch, and we made an adjustment -- customers who purchased the library at its launch price should have received a coupon after the price decreased. If you didn't receive this coupon, give me a shout at [email protected] and I'll get you squared away!


----------



## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 2, 2021)

jaketanner said:


> I love the sound of the strings...looking forward to a better playability.


We're looking forward to improving the playability -- I'll also share that we're not removing the Adaptive Legato feature, so the ability to play fast and slow passages smoothly will still be there. We're giving everything a nice turn of the wrench to make it even smoother. We're also exposing the Hairpin Creator functionality in a more inspiring way. Lots and lots more that I'll share as it gets closer


----------



## reids (Nov 2, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> We're looking forward to improving the playability -- I'll also share that we're not removing the Adaptive Legato feature, so the ability to play fast and slow passages smoothly will still be there. We're giving everything a nice turn of the wrench to make it even smoother. We're also exposing the Hairpin Creator functionality in a more inspiring way. Lots and lots more that I'll share as it gets closer


Hi Steve,
I am a Cinesamples user but have since gone with using other developers libraries due to big issues I have experienced mainly with Cinestrings Core and Cinewinds Core and Cinewinds Pro. You mentioned Cinestrings Core is getting an update so am looking forward to that. But most concerning to me are the Cinesamples woodwinds. Are there updates planned to fix the various phasing between the triggered sustains and the vibrato sustains? Some notes are also out of tune and the legato is bumpy no matter what speed dial you choose. If I use Cinewinds, I usually have to find ways to cover up the woodwinds because of the bumpy legato and strange phasing and buzzing, especially when the vibrato comes in. This is the library from Cinesamples I can get the least use out of and constantly trying to substitute with a different woodwinds library because the phasing stands out so much and the buzzing. The phasing is very apparent and once you hear it, you cant unhear it. You can do a quick search and read through other people's opinions and reviews on the woodwinds as well with a similar consensus that the WOODWINDS need a major improvement. I do wish the best for Cinesamples and mentioning this to you because this is a big issue for me regarding Cinewinds Core and Pro. I hope the team is already aware of these issues or if you can put a request in to address these issues. Thank you.


----------



## Loerpert (Nov 2, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> Hey everybody! Steve from Cinesamples here, I wanted to jump in and address this discussion regarding the recent pricing structure adjustment. Mike Patti went into some detail about this decision here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey Steve! I think it's not so much about the price hike on its own, but especially the immediate "sale" after that. We can have an endless discussion about it, but I think you guys have learned a valuable lesson and I do believe you don't have malicious intentions . Price hikes are fine, just don't do a sale immediately afterwards.


----------



## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 2, 2021)

Hi @reids, thanks for this feedback! Yes, CineWinds CORE and PRO are both slated for huge updates along the same lines as CineStrings CORE is getting. It's likely going to take some time, but we do plan to address these libraries with significant updates. We are aware of these issues and have substantial plans to address them. CineStrings CORE is up first, stay tuned for more!


----------



## wlinart (Nov 3, 2021)

TBH, i think the price hikes for cinebrass, cinewinds and cinestrings are justified. They're not huge ($30 each iirc). And the nks treatment costs a lot of money too. So that one i get. Tina Guo cello got a massive price hike, and that's less understandable. And for example hollywoodwinds, which still has the old interface, no updates whatsoever it seems,


Spoiler



is now on sale still more expensive than it was before the price hike.


 That's what leaving me with a sour taste.

EDIT: this has been cleared up, read the further posts to know what happened.


----------



## Buz (Nov 3, 2021)

If they'd just announced that the previous sale was the last opportunity to get old pricing then they'd have got people panic buying without even knowing what's coming in the big updates. Oh well.


----------



## reids (Nov 3, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> Hi @reids, thanks for this feedback! Yes, CineWinds CORE and PRO are both slated for huge updates along the same lines as CineStrings CORE is getting. It's likely going to take some time, but we do plan to address these libraries with significant updates. We are aware of these issues and have substantial plans to address them. CineStrings CORE is up first, stay tuned for more!


Thank you. Have waited many years for improvement updates on Cinewinds regarding the phasing, buzzing, and bumpy legato that has always been problematic. I gave up and moved onto other developers due to lack of proper updates and communication which honestly left a bad taste for me through the years. If the updates do plan to significantly address the phasing and legato, I'd be happy to return back to Cinesamples and use these as my main libraries and also support you financially with the mentioned paid updates your are working on and new libraries in the pipeline. Take the time you need to get it right since I've waited a long time already and dont mind waiting a bit longer at this point.

Cinesamples is doing the right thing now and the absolute best thing you can do as a sample library developer which is listening to customer's feedback, taking possible notes, and responding back to questions, concerns, bugs, and technical support. It is absolutely essential as it will also help you to grow your business in so many ways by gaining the trust of the community again in one of the most active composer forums on the web. I hope to see Cinesamples returning in a big way soon.


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## Yogevs (Nov 3, 2021)

What this thread turned into is exactly why I'm on VI


----------



## FrozenIcicle (Nov 3, 2021)

Yogevs said:


> What this thread turned into is exactly why I'm on VI


It's kinda an annoying PR statement cause they knew the price hike was going to look very bad, and it was. Now they are here after many years of silence to "listen to us" but really they are here to put out the flames. 

I think they have handled this poorly. They could have done it better and not be in this mess liking every comment in this thread to seem fair.

Let's see, if they were _really_ listening, they'd revert the price increase... They lost a customer cause I was going to buy some products but my money is going somewhere else now


----------



## dunamisstudio (Nov 3, 2021)

@Cinesamples @Cinesamples-SG 
I've heard about it on social media, when do you plan to do some kind of complete your bundle upgrades? For those that own one or more products of a bundle and want to get rest of it.


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## GtrString (Nov 3, 2021)

Lots of folks own Cinesamples libraries in here. I look forward to a better update regime, and improved versions. If they deliver, I'm ok with a price bump. I want these guys to succeed, for my benefit, not everything is about prices


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## Evans (Nov 3, 2021)

CineStrings Core would be a great one for many people to pick up with some denoising and a massive focus on reducing CPU utilization. I've heard the shorts are great, but I saw a legato test from Alex Pfeffer, which showed CineStrings as 3-4x higher on CPU than Afflatus, Berlin, and CSS. Of those he tested, only 8Dio Anthology seemed to be worse.

Looking forward the an update!


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## J Slater (Nov 3, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> We chose to go forward with the pricing changes all at once rather than change prices piecemeal as products get updated and upgraded.


So ... the reason for "coincidentally" raising prices right before a series of endless sales wasn't (as Occam's Razor might tell us) so the sales would appear to be even better deals. Rather it was because ... lets see if I have this straight ... your web guy said, _"Hey, I'm not gonna keep editing the site every damn time you guys do a major product update. Either change all the prices now, or don't change them at all!" _

I've seen enough marketing over the years to have a guess as to which is more likely. 

Don't get me wrong. I don't have a problem with raising prices. Even if it's before there's new value added to the products. It's your company, so charge whatever you want.

It's the _timing_ that's hard to ignore, and that's where that pesky Razor comes in.


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## Robert_G (Nov 3, 2021)

FrozenIcicle said:


> It's kinda an annoying PR statement cause they knew the price hike was going to look very bad, and it was. Now they are here after many years of silence to "listen to us" *but really they are here to put out the flames.*
> 
> I think they have handled this poorly. They could have done it better and not be in this mess liking every comment in this thread to seem fair.
> 
> Let's see, if they were _really_ listening, they'd revert the price increase...



Bingo.



Cinesamples-SG said:


> Hey Robert_G......


With all due respect, I've worked in purchasing, sales, and dealt with more than my share of company PR. I also have 3 teenagers. *I know bull$hit when I smell it.*


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## Nimrod7 (Nov 3, 2021)

FrozenIcicle said:


> It's kinda an annoying PR statement cause they knew the price hike was going to look very bad, and it was. Now they are here after many years of silence to "listen to us" but really they are here to put out the flames.


Sorry I am not agreeing.
As a company you have the right to make adjustments, based on how the market or your company evolves.

Cinesamples, is a company, they hired people to do more, hey have the right to change the price of their products if they see fit. They do not need to justify anything to anyone, however they are here, explaining themselves every 10 posts.

I don't understand why people are getting pissed off. Did they promised the price will be stable?

Companies make discounts, people get pissed off,
Companies make price adjustments people get pissed off,
Companies charging for upgrades, people get pissed off,

They build a product, with a set of features, and a price valid at that specific point it time. That's it, buy it or skip it.
There are tons of other companies to choose from (and they haven't promised price to be stable either).


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 3, 2021)

J Slater said:


> lets see if I have this straight ... your web guy said, _"Hey, I'm not gonna keep editing the site every damn time you guys do a major product update. Either change all the prices now, or don't change them at all!"_


Happy to clarfiy! It wasn't our web guy who made this decision, he doesn't have that much power. The price increase decision was made by the executives, and we went forward with changing everything at once.

Cinesamples has the right to sell our products at whatever price we see fit, and run sales and discounts as we see fit as well. Not all the products that changed in price recently increased -- some were reduced, and many stayed the same. Not all products that increased in price were included in the sale that followed shortly after the price change, and not all are included in the current sale either.



J Slater said:


> It's the _timing_ that's hard to ignore, and that's where that pesky Razor comes in. Then the explanations implying that _we're_ the ultimate winners in all this kinda makes things worse.


I appreciate this feedback, and we understand that this situation created a lot of uncomfortable feelings. We have recently gone through a change in our marketing leadership, and are going forward with a fresh approach in how we communicate with our customers. It is clear to us that we should have been more forthright in announcing the price changes, and we acknowledge that running a sale shortly thereafter was upsetting. We are learning from this mistake, and as we start to roll out what we have in store, all this feedback from this experience has been very valuable as we prepare our next announcements.


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 3, 2021)

dunamisstudio said:


> @Cinesamples @Cinesamples-SG
> I've heard about it on social media, when do you plan to do some kind of complete your bundle upgrades? For those that own one or more products of a bundle and want to get rest of it.


We do have plans to incorporate this into our online store at some point -- we don't have a timeline available for this project, as there are several other things in the pipeline that we have to get through first, but this is a very common request and we definitely plan to address it when we can. Stay tuned!


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 3, 2021)

wlinart said:


> And for example hollywoodwinds, which still has the old interface, no updates whatsoever it seems, is now on sale still more expensive than it was before the price hike.


Hey @wlinart, glad to clarify this! Hollywoodwinds is on the docket for an imminent update that will freshen up the GUI, incorporate NKS integration for the Komplete Kontrol plugin, Native Access direct installation, and the improved Kontakt 6 engine tools. This update (and all coming updates for libraries that are already currently encoded for Kontakt Player/NKS) will be free for existing owners.

This library was $199 before the price adjustment and is now full retail of $229. It is on sale for $115 during the current sale.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 3, 2021)

Robert_G said:


> Bingo.
> 
> 
> With all due respect, I've worked in purchasing, sales, and dealt with more than my share of company PR. I also have 3 teenagers. *I know bull$hit when I smell it.*


It‘s a privilege for us VI Control users when developers make the decision to be present on this forum, as it gives us a direct way of communicating with said developers about their products, updates, future plans etc.

Therefore we must be careful not to drive them away.


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## Robert_G (Nov 3, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Therefore we must be careful not to drive them away.


Agreed.....but what does it matter when some of them only show up here to put out their own fires....as others have already stated in this case.


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## Evans (Nov 3, 2021)

Robert_G said:


> what does it matter when some of them only show up here to put out their own fires


The problem is that this forum user behavior might end up with the developer being driven away for _everybody_, when only _some _users think it's a fire that needed putting out in the first place.

The point has been made, quite publicly, but now it's being beaten to death with insults being thrown around.


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## wlinart (Nov 3, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> Hey @wlinart, glad to clarify this! Hollywoodwinds is on the docket for an imminent update that will freshen up the GUI, incorporate NKS integration for the Komplete Kontrol plugin, Native Access direct installation, and the improved Kontakt 6 engine tools. This update (and all coming updates for libraries that are already currently encoded for Kontakt Player/NKS) will be free for existing owners.
> 
> This library was $199 before the price adjustment and is now full retail of $229. It is on sale for $115 during the current sale.


Ok, good to hear. I went back to my emails from you to check the price, and saw this:




Which is where my comment on the price came from. Could you clarify this too please?


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 3, 2021)

FrozenIcicle said:


> Now they are here after many years of silence to "listen to us"


Hey @FrozenIcicle! I know it's been awhile since we had a presence here, and it may take some time for me to demonstrate that I'm actually here and things are really different around here, but I am, and they are.

For 14 years, this company has had only a small handful of full-time employees. As of the beginning of 2021, Mike took us in a whole new direction. There are now 16 people on our team. We brought in a whole new crew of sample developers, software engineers, and more. We made some big decisions regarding our focus in product development, and one such decision was to revisit, update, and upgrade many of our libraries that haven't been touched in years.

In the years since these products were released, there have not only been massive improvements to the Kontakt engine, but also to the audio processing tools we use like iZotope RX. Our sample development team also has the advantage of many years of experience working with these tools, and learning how to use them most effectively for our needs.

While this gives us an extremely important opportunity to update our products, and we are definitely making the most of it, we have also been heavily involved in new product development as well. We have several huge projects all coming together right around the same time. The next few weeks are going to be a whirlwind.



FrozenIcicle said:


> if they were _really_ listening, they'd revert the price increase


The new pricing structure is an indefinite change. This was not a decision that was made lightly, though I'm sure the lack of open communication and announcement about it probably made it seem that way. As Mike pointed out on another thread when asked about the price increase, the choice was made to be able to grow the company while keeping important decisions in our own hands. I have 15 incredibly talented and hardworking coworkers who deserve to be paid for their work, and I believe for us to not have some venture capital firm breathing down our neck and feeling like we have to cut corners is a much better situation. Inflation affects all of us, companies as well as customers, and we're still growing our team. 

We're only a few weeks away from making some huge announcements, which I think will help contextualize a lot of this discussion in ways I can't right now. Believe me, I understand how it looks, and I am very eager to share the news when I can.

One more thing I want to make clear about my presence here is that I'm not ever going to sell you something you don't need. If you don't think our products suit your current projects, or you feel a purchase isn't worth it to you, it's not my responsibility or my job to change your mind. I can't, and won't bother trying. 

I'm also not here to shut down discussion or censor opinions. I'll clarify incorrect assumptions or factual inaccuracies as and when I have to, but we knew when we decided to re-engage here that we are going to hear unfiltered opinions, and we're not shying away from that.

We know this forum has felt ignored and unheard, and I'm sure it's frustrating to have me show up and say "I hear you, and also no, we're not changing the prices back." I know it must be additionally frustrating that I can't share more than has already been announced about what's coming in terms of upgrades, updates, and new products that that will help shed light on this situation. It's frustrating for me too -- when I finally can, I'm very much looking forward to showing off what the team has been up to. Until then, I'm here to answer questions and help out as much as possible!


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 3, 2021)

wlinart said:


> Which is where my comment on the price came from. Could you clarify this too please?


Yes, great question -- this was a typo in a sale email that went out earlier this year. Hollywoodwinds was a $199 library before the price adjustment to $229. We sent out a correction email shortly after that one, which was sometime in the summer IIRC. Did you receive a second email that same week with the corrected price?


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## AndrewS (Nov 3, 2021)

Honestly, I think at this point this thread has run its course. Cinesamples have every right to adjust their prices for any or no reason at all, and in this case they've given plenty of good reasons why they've adjusted their prices.

You as the consumer have every right to buy or not buy their product for any or no reason at all as well.

I'm not sure complaining about it further does anything worthwhile.


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## Marcus Millfield (Nov 3, 2021)

Well, I for one am glad you're here to engage with part of your customers and to help us with our questions and issues @Cinesamples-SG. I wish more companies would follow the example, although a lot are already on here.


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## wlinart (Nov 3, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> Yes, great question -- this was a typo in a sale email that went out earlier this year. Hollywoodwinds was a $199 library before the price adjustment to $229. We sent out a correction email shortly after that one, which was sometime in the summer IIRC. Did you receive a second email that same week with the corrected price?


I searched in gmail for the word "hollywoodwinds" and this was the first one that came up. It was from 11/17/20 and i can't find an email with a correction of the price. But i looked for other emails and saw that in other mails the $199 was mentioned. So i stand corrected! My sincere apologies. 
Although i find it a bit strange to raise the price before the updates are happening, it's of course your perfect right to do so as a company.


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 3, 2021)

Robert_G said:


> With all due respect, I've worked in purchasing, sales, and dealt with more than my share of company PR. I also have 3 teenagers. *I know bull$hit when I smell it.*


I'm not sure what kind of response you expect me to give to this, but I'm not here to have an adversarial relationship with you or anyone else on this forum. My job is to advocate for customer success, and to help users get the most out of their libraries. I'm not here to argue with you -- you have 3 teenagers, so I'm sure you get plenty of that in your life as it is 

I'm here to answer questions to the best of my ability, if you're curious about a particular feature or library that you are considering that would help you feel more comfortable with any purchasing decisions. That includes deciding not to buy, if that's what's best for you. I'm not on commission. I'd much rather help you figure out that something doesn't suit your needs and choose not to buy it, than sell you something that isn't right for your project and leave you in a lurch trying to shoehorn it into your projects. Ultimately it's up to you to decide if something will fit your workflow and if you feel it's worth your money at that time, and I'm more than happy to provide as much information as I can to help you make that choice!


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 3, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> It‘s a privilege for us VI Control users when developers make the decision to be present on this forum, as it gives us a direct way of communicating with said developers about their products, updates, future plans etc.
> 
> Therefore we must be careful not to drive them away.


Appreciate the support! Don't worry, I'm not going anywhere


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## branshen (Nov 3, 2021)

Any updates coming for Tina guo especially vol 2 with the legato not working in some articulations? Not sure if it is designed that way?


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## Henu (Nov 3, 2021)

Speaking of Tina Guo- I've always wondered if there's some clever way to reduce the release tail in v1 which I haven't realized? I'd love to use it more but the (room) tail even on dry setting is so huge that it limits a bit of the usage possibilities.


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 3, 2021)

branshen said:


> Any updates coming for Tina guo especially vol 2 with the legato not working in some articulations? Not sure if it is designed that way?


There is only one patch/articulation (Arco Legato) that has legato functionality. Are you having an issue with legato transitions not triggering when using this patch?


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## branshen (Nov 3, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> There is only one patch/articulation (Arco Legato) that has legato functionality. Are you having an issue with legato transitions not triggering when using this patch?


Ah thanks for clarifying. All working as intended then.


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## Yogevs (Nov 3, 2021)

FrozenIcicle said:


> It's kinda an annoying PR statement cause they knew the price hike was going to look very bad, and it was. Now they are here after many years of silence to "listen to us" but really they are here to put out the flames.
> 
> I think they have handled this poorly. They could have done it better and not be in this mess liking every comment in this thread to seem fair.
> 
> Let's see, if they were _really_ listening, they'd revert the price increase... They lost a customer cause I was going to buy some products but my money is going somewhere else now


I think we got more than "we hear you" blank statement. There's a discussion and you get to hear some more about their side.
Also, there's such a huge competition you don't need them to listen to you. You can find another company that already fits your needs better (price-wise, sound-wise, etc...).
I love the fact we get direct communication with the developer in such an open way. Also notice they have not issues answering and extending (and keeping it up) a thread that has a very bad title for the company (pr-wise).


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 3, 2021)

Henu said:


> I'd love to use it more but the (room) tail even on dry setting is so huge that it limits a bit of the usage possibilities.


This is an intentional decision for this recording session -- the original focus of the Tina Guo library was as a sound design tool, with Electric Cello, Er Hu and Acoustic Cello content captured in a way that would allow us to leverage Kontakt's new (at the time) sound design functions like granular synthesis and ways of creating a Phrase Builder. 

As it turned out, the method of recording the Acoustic Cello in this fashion ended up sounding so good that it became its own standalone library. It's best suited for slow, emotional and expressive passages, and the release tail in this space is a significant part of that sound. We did capture a tighter release for the Vol 2 library, which was recorded as a standalone solo cello library from the outset, rather than a sound design library that happened to include solo cello.

Library development is always a fascinating process to see how things evolve from their original plan, depending on what gets recorded and then what happens with that material during the production of the library itself.

TL;DR: Not in Vol 1, but Vol 2 may be better suited for this.


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## Bman70 (Nov 3, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> It‘s a privilege for us VI Control users when developers make the decision to be present on this forum, as it gives us a direct way of communicating with said developers about their products, updates, future plans etc.
> 
> Therefore we must be careful not to drive them away.


To be fair, it's also a privilege for developers when we deem their offerings worth spending money on.  If I were a developer I would just ignore the most rude or unproductive comments. It's still the developer's choice as a company to participate or not. As Conor McGregor once said, "It's just business."


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## Bman70 (Nov 3, 2021)

Nimrod7 said:


> They build a product, with a set of features, and a price valid at that specific point it time. That's it, buy it or skip it.
> There are tons of other companies to choose from (and they haven't promised price to be stable either).



That's reasonable, however in the VI world it seems a bit unusual to raise prices on quite old products. I haven't been on VI-C that long, but in that time it seems that products either stay the same or slowly drop in price over the years. There may be rare exceptions, just not handled quite as awkwardly as this one was.


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## zwhita (Nov 3, 2021)

I noticed CineHarps also got a small price hike. I'm interested in getting this one soon, are there updates planned for this product next year?


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## prodigalson (Nov 3, 2021)

Jeez, it's not like Cinesamples are going to come after you to make you pay the difference for products you already own or something! 

They've raised the prices because they have faith in the caliber of the product and feel like they need to for reasons that are all their own. Yes, they're older. Yes, other companies usually drop their prices over time. But you don't have to buy if you don't want to or think it's worth it. 

It's not unethical because it has absolutely nothing to do with you.


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 3, 2021)

zwhita said:


> I noticed CineHarps also got a small price hike. I'm interested in getting this one soon, are there updates planned for this product next year?


This one is on the list to update, but it may take a bit longer than some of the others. It's got a lot of features that the others don't, and we'll be making updates where applicable to these features. The CineSymphony series has been an evolving product line since its inception, with lots of functionality added in new libraries that were then added as feature updates to other related products. We're now taking the opportunity to standardize things where we can, but CineHarps and others (like CineStrings RUNS) may non-standard feature sets that require their own considerations. As such, these libraries may get updated after we get through the primary orchestral sections.

A lot of this update stuff will become clear as soon as we show off the new CineStrings CORE interface design, and you can see the magnitude of changes that are coming.


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## Gingerbread (Nov 3, 2021)

"Unethical" has no place in this discussion. CineSamples has every right, both legally and ethically, to raise its prices to its chosen price point. Customers have every right to decide if the product is worth the price. There is nothing shady about any of it.

CineSamples has explained its reasons for the price hike. It's all out in the open, and nothing is hidden. They've even said that if a customer truly cannot afford the new price, to contact them directly to work something out. Everyone can make their own choice about the matter. It's all above-board and ethical.


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## cedricm (Nov 3, 2021)

Gingerbread said:


> "Unethical" has no place in this discussion. CineSamples has every right, both legally and ethically, to raise its prices to its chosen price point. Customers have every right to decide if the product is worth the price. There is nothing shady about any of it.
> 
> CineSamples has explained its reasons for the price hike. It's all out in the open, and nothing is hidden. They've even said that if a customer truly cannot afford the new price, to contact them directly to work something out. Everyone can make their own choice about the matter. It's all above-board and ethical.


If not unethical, it's disingenious at best. Someone not in the known will have the feeling s/he's getting a great sales prices when in fact, not so much.

You should be happy people are complaining, when complaining is legitimate.
Cinesamples has taken the feedback into account and said they will "communicate better" next time.

It took quite a lot of compaining for Apple to agree to repair the terribly bad butterfly keyboards, and even more complaining to get them to abandon them and equip MacBooks with decent keyboards again.

Who benefited? All MacBook owners, as well as all new MacBook customers.

If people stopped voicing their concerns in forums because Apple has every right to innovate on defective keyboards and because customer that aren't happy can go buy their computers elsewhere, nothing would have changed.


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 3, 2021)

Bman70 said:


> it seems that products either stay the same or slowly drop in price over the years.


You are correct! In some cases, our products that recently increased in price had indeed already undergone some pricing drops over the years. For instance, the original CinePerc library was released as four separate CinePerc CORE/PRO/EPIC/AUX libraries each priced at $299, totalling nearly $1200 USD to purchase all four. In March of 2016, these four products were combined into one and re-encoded for Kontakt Player, and was at that time priced at $999. Over the following years, it dropped in price to $799 and then $699, before the recent adjustment to $749. 

We have never done a price increase before this year, and it was not an easy decision, nor made abitrarily.


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## Trash Panda (Nov 3, 2021)

@Cinesamples-SG I think a lot of the backlash over a price increase is a disconnect between the value of the product in the eyes of (at least 9 pages of) consumers and the company, not enough product information on the website, and with what is honestly a bit of a confusing product lineup in some cases.

Let's look at CineBrass as an example.

The full CineBrass lineup is roughly $1,500 if you buy each library separately, $1,200 via bundle. 
CineBrass Core and Pro are roughly $850 together.
Berlin Brass without expansions is $927. Berlin Brass is roughly $1,700 for all libraries.
Tom Holkenborg (Junkie XL) Brass is $869.
Spitfire Symphonic Brass Pro is $999.
All of Hollywood Orchestra Opus (including Hollywood Orchestra Brass) is $995.
Cinematic Studio Brass is $399.
Aaron Venture Infinite Brass is $449.
Each of these competing products are either as or more fully featured as CineBrass. In some cases these competing products are available for substantially lower cost to the consumer. In the case of libraries of a similar age, with more improvements made to them over time in scripting/playability/efficiency, costs have gone down over time, not up. The recent glut of deep discounts has also diluted the perceived value of these libraries amongst consumers.

While you can't put a hard dollar value or objective criteria on sonority or playability, you can compare specs to get an idea of capabilities. The CineSamples website is very scant on these details.

I can walk away from every competing website understanding what instruments are included, what articulations each instrument has, how many round robins and dynamic layers are included, etc. I can't easily get that level of detail from the CineSamples site, so unless someone has posted the info on YouTube or a forum, I have to take a leap of faith as the consumer to find out. Not an enticing prospect when all sales are final.

The lineup of products is also confusing, whereas with competing brass libraries, I know exactly what I'm getting without having to create an Excel spreadsheet to figure out what does what.

In the end, for me personally, I love what I hear from CineBrass, but in my mind, the price of Core & Pro together at $400 should be the standard price for the value I perceive it delivers, not the sale price. Most of the CineSymphony line is also around what I would expect the products to cost against the competition when on 50% off sale, with the exception of CinePerc, which I feel would be a fair price if it was around $499 when not on sale.

Of course you are free to price things however you feel is fair or equitable, but when a vocal group of consumers already feel that the non-sale price is already a poor value proposition against competing products (sonority aside), raising the prices even more before any improvements are made is a weird approach in the eyes of said consumers.

So essentially this is a long wall of text to help contextualize the backlash here a bit better and while I hold no ill will towards CineSamples, I don't plan on buying any further into the CineSymphony line at the old non-sale prices or the newly increased prices. Hopefully I'm amongst a minority for the sake of your independence from VCs.

tl;dr version: libraries are overpriced for their age and level of maintenance when compared to the competition, so of course people are going to blow their gasket when prices go up while competitors have reduced prices.


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 3, 2021)

cedricm said:


> You should be happy people are complaining, when complaining is legitimate.


Agreed -- again, the reason I'm here is not to shut down discussion of things that aren't favorable to us. I've shared the reasons given behind the decision to change the pricing structure, and I know whatever answer we give isn't going to satisfy everyone. The pricing change is staying in effect, and as ironic as it may be to say this while we have a 50% off sale going on, we're going to be moving away from doing huge discounts in the future. We have our reasons for this, which will become clear soon enough.

It's extremely valuable feedback for us to hear people's genuine impressions of these things. With all the many changes and new developments we have coming, it's important that we address how people are really feeling about it all. We're making our decisions in-house, but we're not making them in a vacuum. That's a big part of why I'm here, to be able to bring the voice of our customers into those discussions.

As developers of creative tools, we're trying to empower our customers to work on making music in a more inspiring way. One of our main considerations in what we've been working on this year is how people want to work, and what workflow gets the best results. While there is no universal answer to this question, and use cases are always in flux, it's an important thing to consider, and this is a great place to gather information about this.


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## lettucehat (Nov 3, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> @Cinesamples-SG I think a lot of the backlash over a price increase is a disconnect between the value of the product in the eyes of (at least 9 pages of) consumers and the company, not enough product information on the website, and with what is honestly a bit of a confusing product lineup in some cases.
> 
> Let's look at CineBrass as an example.
> 
> ...


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## Dirtgrain (Nov 3, 2021)

Gingerbread said:


> There is nothing shady about any of it.


It is absolutely shady to raise prices right before a sale--that has always been the case since over decades and decades of my life. If that is the case in this instance, so be it.

Still, I hate paying more for libraries/plugins than others, and I'm not buying into Cinesamples. No worries.


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 3, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> not enough product information on the website, and with what is honestly a bit of a confusing product lineup in some cases.
> 
> 
> Trash Panda said:
> ...


This is totally valid, and I'm happy to share that we are in the process of completely overhauling how we're delivering product information for our libraries, and updating and verifying the information on the store pages. There are several product pages that have outdated information at this point, and we're going to be leveraging our Help Center platform in a better way to deliver User Manuals for products. Most of the requests I get for a PDF User Manual for a product are from international customers who want to run it through a translation program, and our Help Center auto-localizes content based on the user's region. We plan to make all the relevant, updated, and accurate information for our libraries available in this public-facing format, before the point of purchase.

This is long overdue, and it hasn't been able to be a priority until recently -- as we start to have updates ready, we'll be simplifying and changing the information that is presented.


Trash Panda said:


> The lineup of products is also confusing, whereas with competing brass libraries, I know exactly what I'm getting without having to create an Excel spreadsheet to figure out what does what.


We have some plans to address this problem as well, but not necessarily in the way people might expect.

I appreciate you being candid about the numbers you have in mind for the prices you'd be willing to pay for these libraries -- oftentimes these conversations don't get that specific, and people aren't always willing to share their thoughts on how much they'd actually be comfortable spending. We're left guessing how much people think things should cost, somewhere between "free" and "a sack full of Kruggerands." I disagree with your numbers, and that's perfectly okay. If it's not for you, maybe something else will be someday.

I know I'm a broken record about this, and the point is well taken that people don't like us putting the cart of increased prices before the updated horses, but there *are* huge things coming very soon. All the updates are just the tip of the iceberg.


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## Robert_G (Nov 3, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> I know I'm a broken record about this, and the point is well taken that people don't like us putting the cart of increased prices before the updated horses, *but there are huge things coming very soon.* All the updates are just the tip of the iceberg.


You mean like "*Something beautiful is coming in May*?" You should read this thread.



https://vi-control.net/community/threads/cinesamples-something-beautiful-is-coming-in-may.108313/



The *'promised'* updates aren't going to keep customers sated, and I'm not going to put that one on just Cinesamples only. Promised updates and upgrades in this entire *industry* is like watching the months and years come and go while our hair goes gray and falls out. I find the average 'promised update or upgrade' in this industry averages more than 2 times the original timeline.....sometimes 4 or 5 times as much.

What I'm trying to say is that the 'promised' updates could take much longer than you anticipate.....meanwhile you have raised prices followed by an immediate sale right before Black Friday. It just doesn't sit well with some of us, so you should expect some backlash. We're customers....you don't have to like our opinion, but customers are entitled to give one when they see the need.


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## RonOrchComp (Nov 3, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> The CineSymphony series has been an evolving product line since its inception, with lots of functionality added in new libraries that were then added as feature updates to other related products.


That's not really true. You shouldnt be saying that.


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 3, 2021)

Robert_G said:


> You mean like "*Something beautiful is coming in May*?"


This was a tough lesson learned for our Marketing department. Product development hits unexpected roadblocks, as you identify in the rest of your comment. We know it's frustrating waiting for updates to products -- we're composers too, and we don't only use our own libraries, but we know what actually happens when in the trenches creating these things. That's why we're not announcing specific release dates for things anymore until we have them ready to release. We have our targets, and I've shared that we hope to have the CineStrings CORE update available by the end of the year. There are factors of this that are out of our hands, because the new update has to go through processes with NI after we get it back from the scripting team. It's not a simple update. It's not a couple of minor tweaks. It's a complete overhaul, and it's going to take as long as it takes for us to ensure the standard of quality we want to deliver.


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## cqd (Nov 3, 2021)

Do you think after Cinestrings core comes out there might be a possibility the others might start coming quicker, as you might have some of the work done already?

(I have been absolutely itching for these updates since they were hinted at back in March..)


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 3, 2021)

Did you guys never consider lowering your prices, but then at the same time quit running 50% off sales constantly?


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## Evans (Nov 3, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> We know it's frustrating waiting for updates to products


It's frustrating from a developer standpoint, too (I work in software). One of my teams had an early adopter program push a product out a full year. And then a different team of went through the same, on a massive release.

It wasn't necessarily the fault of the product owners. The point of an EAP is to learn, and learn we did. Software development is tricky, even not taking market factors into consideration. Yet, marketing teams and sales teams don't like to just "sell what's on the truck."

Funny enough, the sales teams were more crude about it than our customers were. They weren't taking to our web forums to complain about it...


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## Robert_G (Nov 3, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> It's not a simple update. It's not a couple of minor tweaks. It's a complete overhaul, and it's going to take as long as it takes for us to ensure the standard of quality we want to deliver.


Well said and I agree, which is why myself and some others here don't think it's right to use the *upcoming* 'updates' to justify the *immediate* 'price increases'.


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 3, 2021)

@RonOrchComp can you elaborate on what you think is not true about what I said? I'm happy to clarify what I mean as follows:

CineStrings SOLO was the first library with Adaptive Legato. After it was released, CineBrass and CineWinds were both updated with this functionality, as well as other libraries like Tina Guo Legato. This feature adjusts the Speed and Intensity of the legato transitions between notes to allow for the playing of fast and slow passages based on your performance. We added this functionality in v1.7 of CineBrass CORE and v1.3 of CineWinds CORE/PRO and CineStrings CORE.

CineSymphony LITE was created after the CineBrass, CineWinds and CineStrings CORE libraries were released, and these products originally had a different style of Ensemble patches. CineSymphony LITE introduced the functionality of being able to adjust the ranges of the instruments within the Ensemble patch using the knobs. It also brought in the Chord Arranger feature, which adapts the voice density of chords played on the Ensemble by adjusting how many voices will play when available for a chord voicing.

After CineSymphony LITE introduced this functionality to Ensemble patches, we updated the CineStrings, CineBrass and CineWinds CORE libraries with Ensemble patches containing these features.

We have consistently updated our products over the years with new features that are applicable, particularly new features that have become possible with advancements in the Kontakt engine or scripting capabilities. We're now in a position with the CineSymphony series in particular that many features have been added over the years with newer libraries, that give us many great opportunities with the redesign.


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 3, 2021)

cqd said:


> Do you think after Cinestrings core comes out there might be a possibility the others might start coming quicker, as you might have some of the work done already?


It is *possible*, however I'll be clear that there's a lot more to it than just taking the Brass/Winds/Perc samples and dumping them into the new GUI. The CineWinds libraries are getting a similar hand-denoise treatment that CineStrings CORE has received. We may very well find that we hit a stride with these updates and they start going faster, but we are going to take our time with each one to give it the attention it deserves. We don't want to just re-skin things with a different color, when we have the opportunity to address things that people have wanted to see addressed for a long time.


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 3, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Did you guys never consider lowering your prices, but then at the same time quit running 50% off sales constantly?


I've been meaning to gather some intel on people's feelings on the current trend of huge sales on sample libraries. Do you find yourself waiting for big sales so you can take advantage of them when they happen, or does it lower the perceived value of the products in your mind for there to be significant discounts on things all the time?


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 3, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> I've been meaning to gather some intel on people's feelings on the current trend of huge sales on sample libraries. Do you find yourself waiting for big sales so you can take advantage of them when they happen, or does it lower the perceived value of the products in your mind for there to be significant discounts on things all the time?


When a company has big discounts all the time, the discounted sales price de facto becomes what I see as the “normal” sales price. So I won’t pay more than this for the product(s).


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 3, 2021)

Robert_G said:


> Well said and I agree, which is why myself and some others here don't think it's right to use the *upcoming* 'updates' to justify the *immediate* 'price increases'.


I hear you, and I appreciate your opinion -- the upcoming updates are not the only justification for the price increases. There's a lot more going on than just these updates, and we're close to making some announcements about what we've been up to that will explain just how much has really been going on around here. 

Believe me, I'd love to be able to do better than "sleep paralysis but instead of a demon it's a sample library developer saying 'big things coming soon' over and over." In just a few weeks I'll be able to do quite a lot better than that, and I'm looking forward to hearing what you have to say when those announcements do come!


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## Evans (Nov 3, 2021)

And scene.


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## Trash Panda (Nov 3, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> I've been meaning to gather some intel on people's feelings on the current trend of huge sales on sample libraries. Do you find yourself waiting for big sales so you can take advantage of them when they happen, or does it lower the perceived value of the products in your mind for there to be significant discounts on things all the time?


I don’t even open sales emails from Cinesamples, EastWest or 8dio for anything lower than 50% off. There’s always a better deal coming soon when it’s 30-40%.


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## reids (Nov 3, 2021)

@Cinesamples-SG Since Quatre's release was brought up, can you clarify if this is an actual playable library with legato, shorts, and various extended articulations or is this a "phrase-based" library? I mostly try to avoid phrase-based libraries unless it is aleatoric meant more for impact and effects purposes. Also, additional expansion libraries to Cinebrass and the rest of the sections are gladly welcome and actually much needed for extended articulations which your competitors already provide for their main orchestral libraries covering much more than just legato, shorts, and 4-5 effects. 

Cinesamples has a great opportunity here to be able to utilize the Sony room extensively. If I were in this position, I'd record and re-record there as much as possible producing more libraries not wasting any moment. You can be assured there is a demand for products recorded in this space. Spitfire has taken so much opportunity pouring money and resources to record at AIR because it is one of the best places at the very beginning of their start. So please continue your orchestral line and expanding on them with more *articulations*. Regarding future releases, most people would like to see Cinesamples producing more traditional orchestral libraries as this is what people come to Cinesamples for. Cine...cinematic...orchestral music. So less emphasis on synths, ambient guitars, or other tools/instruments that fall into small studio/pop music libraries that you have done recently. Customers know and want to go with Cineamples for the Sony sound since the start of your company. There should be no shortage of ideas what you can record at Sony for future libraries. And please put more emphasis and research into programming for doing playable runs for strings, brass, and woodwinds. Without sounding like a broken record myself for a to do list: Improved smoother legato with more dynamics (bumpy transitions should be a thing of the past now), multiple dynamic layers for shorts (John Williams would not be happy with such few variation for shorts), expanded/extended articulations, large libraries or categories catering specifically to aleatoric effects, testing for phasing, and *FAST playable runs* (John Williams looking at you in this category as well ). Don't let our man JW down. Re-record anything if necessary since programming and Izotope RX is not a bandage for improper recording. Have it as a paid update and I would be ok with that since majority of customers would be happy to have new or better content than no improvements/fixes at all. No compromises or shortcuts by trying to trim down the library and content to make it smaller, customers can do that for themselves if they want to. 45gb, 80gb, 100gb+ libraries...keep most of what you can record. Less emphasis on trying to make the libraries for Kontakt smaller, more emphasis on programming, larger content pool, and versatility.


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## Evans (Nov 3, 2021)

reids said:


> Regarding future releases, most people would like to see Cinesamples producing more traditional orchestral libraries


I would love for this to true, but I'm afraid it might not be when looking at the entire market.


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## prodigalson (Nov 3, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> I'm looking forward to hearing what you have to say when those announcements do come!


They'll still complain about the price.


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## Gingerbread (Nov 3, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> I've been meaning to gather some intel on people's feelings on the current trend of huge sales on sample libraries. Do you find yourself waiting for big sales so you can take advantage of them when they happen, or does it lower the perceived value of the products in your mind for there to be significant discounts on things all the time?


I certainly always wait for the sale, knowing that it will happen with regularity. I'm sure any of us VI "regulars" do the same....so that the only people who would get hit with full MSRP are the most vulnerable: newbies without the perspective to know that a huge sale is likely around the corner. That seems unfortunate.

When large sales are as frequent as they've been with CineSamples lately, wouldn't it make more sense to simply make the regular price much lower, and eliminate the sales?

I guess I'd be curious to know how much sales volume increases with your major discount sales, versus when products are full-price. Does it really make sense to MSRP at a high price, and make up for lower volumes with periodic huge sales? (Not that I'm expecting you to reveal such data, but it's still a curiosity...)


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## reids (Nov 3, 2021)

Even companies who said they'd never have sales eventually have sales. It keeps people engaged, talking, excited, more publicity for the product, and greater incentive to buy now rather than later. If they can buy later, then there is no rush and they can wait to get it 'later' or wait to see if a better library comes along. Spitfire and OT have learned this over the years and they get more sales as a result of it. Let their sales threads speak for itself compared to developers who run no sales which there are very few I can even think of.


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## Bman70 (Nov 3, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> Do you find yourself waiting for big sales so you can take advantage of them when they happen...?



Have you spent _any _time on VI-C?  Just teasing, but "doh"! That's all people do here, is scrape up their gig money all year to buy libraries during the summer / holiday sales. Of course, when your client demographic is musicians, it's already a little strange, as these people are sometimes choosing between how much they eat and their next brass library.

Actually it's not a bad suggestion to just lower the prices and have no CONSTANT sales. Constant sales just suggests you're using it as a gimmick and you actually think your product should be priced lower. 

A once-a-year sale is enough. If you've been having constant sales, you probably need to price your product around that sale price all year, then have a _really _special sale annually. Enough people will be too impatient to wait, if it's that infrequently.


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## Trash Panda (Nov 3, 2021)

Bman70 said:


> Have you spent _any _time on VI-C?  Just teasing, but "doh"! That's all people do here, is scrape up their gig money all year to buy libraries during the summer / holiday sales. Of course, when your client demographic is musicians, it's already a little strange, as these people are sometimes choosing between how much they eat and their next brass library.
> 
> Actually it's not a bad suggestion to just lower the prices and have no CONSTANT sales. Constant sales just suggests you're using it as a gimmick and you actually think your product should be priced lower.
> 
> A once-a-year sale is enough. If you've been having constant sales, you probably need to price your product around that sale price all year, then have a _really _special sale annually. Enough people will be too impatient to wait, if it's that infrequently.


Truth. When products are 50% off multiple times per year (sometimes multiple times per quarter) that becomes the perceived value of the product, while purchasing outside of those sales becomes an impatience tax. 

From a consumer point of view anyways.


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 3, 2021)

reids said:


> Since Quatre's release was brought up, can you clarify if this is an actual playable library with legato, shorts, and various extended articulations or is this a "phrase-based" library?


Sure, I'll share a bit more information about this one (without letting the cat too far out of the bag). 

First, I regret to announce that this library has hit another setback, and we are looking at this being a 2022 item. I mentioned this has been a hard lesson learned about announcing products in advance. The double edged sword about this is, we then have to be cryptic and secretive until we're ready for a big reveal. On the one hand, mystique; on the other, as has been shared as a valid concern here, the perception of inactivity. We won't always walk that fine line properly, and I'll have to be careful how much I reveal about this library here, but I know people have been waiting for more news about this for a really long time, so I'll share what I can. A lot of things about the feature set and design of this library are under NDA, but I can speak to some of the basics so folks can get a general sense of what this library will be about.

Quatre is a performance-based session strings library. This means based on your performance on your controller, not recorded phrases. This library has long note pads (no legato), a variety of short notes including pizzicato and col legno, and an engine for generating patterns, arpeggios, and rhythmic figures using the recorded samples. 

This library was not recorded at Sony. This instrument features four Violins, four Violas, four Cellos, and three Basses, recorded independently as sections. The concept behind this recording was influenced by what our team saw emerging as a trend in composing for media as impacted by the necessity to change recording practices in 2020. With big sessions no longer a possibility, a new sound of smaller ensembles and more intimate recording styles became prevalent. Quatre is intended to unlock the possibilities for arrangement and orchestration using this novel ensemble approach.

You can mix and match what section types you have loaded between the Violins, Violas, Cellos and Basses. You can customize your ensemble in this manner, so you could have one of each Violin/Viola/Cello/Bass section, or any combination of the four.

That's probably more than I should say about this one already, especially since it has been pushed back yet again _dodges thrown shoe_, but I hope it gives a little context about what this library is intended for, and especially that it highlights that this is *not CineStrings PRO* in any way, shape, or form. To your point about libraries to be recorded at Sony, that's one we'll be tackling in 2022.

Mike pointed out on another thread a few weeks ago that at its heart, Cinesamples is an LA sample company. Sony is one of the many legendary rooms we have in this town, and great connections at other amazing spaces. We've got some exciting sessions booked in, and plenty of ideas to keep us busy for a good long while.


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## reids (Nov 3, 2021)

Sales are a major driving factor in this forum. Even CSS, who do not do sales have one each year during Black Friday but they have a good customer loyalty model where when you buy one library, you will get a discount on all their other libraries. You need to find a fine line and have some kind of incentive for your customer or you can sure bet your competitors will gladly take the business of your potential customer with their own sales and loyalty offers. This is the market now and the competition of cutting-edge products recorded in fancy rooms is fierce.


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## reids (Nov 3, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> Sure, I'll share a bit more information about this one (without letting the cat too far out of the bag).
> 
> First, I regret to announce that this library has hit another setback, and we are looking at this being a 2022 item. I mentioned this has been a hard lesson learned about announcing products in advance. The double edged sword about this is, we then have to be cryptic and secretive until we're ready for a big reveal. On the one hand, mystique; on the other, as has been shared as a valid concern here, the perception of inactivity. We won't always walk that fine line properly, and I'll have to be careful how much I reveal about this library here, but I know people have been waiting for more news about this for a really long time, so I'll share what I can. A lot of things about the feature set and design of this library are under NDA, but I can speak to some of the basics so folks can get a general sense of what this library will be about.
> 
> ...


Ah....thank you for this thorough answer. I much appreciate someone who takes the time to go in as much detail as they can as you have here. Good to know Quatre will not be a phrase based library. As Cinesamples seems to be tackling multiple new products as well as updates to products close to each other, I can understand how there would be another delay. You are not the first company in the last few years to have delays so I have no grudges against that. My only issue is when there is dead silence, censorship by deletion of comments, no communication, or a genuine response which you are working hard now to remedy and being very active which is going in the right direction. At the end of the day, actions speak louder than words and customers will vote with their wallet what they like and who they support. Existing customers also have a direct impact on new customers since they will offer recommendation and opinions about various libraries and developers so its not just about chasing after new customers since existing customers also do have much power and influence here and in the market.

For me, I personally enjoy the Sony room and will be much more likely (about 90% chance) to get the product if it is recorded there since it will also blend easier without having to use a fake room reverb to try to emulate the space. I've been looking forward to Cinestrings Pro since Cinesamples mentioned it on Twitter several years ago in 2017 and then there was no word ever spoken about it until the email survey came out a while ago. Absolutely continue recording in that space since there is no better space than that in the area for scoring. I look forward to 2022 when you can share more information on what you have been working on at sony.


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## Drundfunk (Nov 3, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> I've been meaning to gather some intel on people's feelings on the current trend of huge sales on sample libraries. Do you find yourself waiting for big sales so you can take advantage of them when they happen, or does it lower the perceived value of the products in your mind for there to be significant discounts on things all the time?


There is actually this *thread* on here in Sample Talk related to this topic which could give you some good insight.
For me personally last Black Friday was kinda an eye opener. I noticed it stressed me out more than it should, trying to figure out how to spend my budget. Then certain events didn't help with that (self-inflicted) stress at all (a developer sending out a coupon for additional percentage off for one day, but then increasing the prices on that very day for example. This screwed my entire planning of a whole evening and made me kinda pissed). Your company offered 50% off for Black Friday but then decided to offer 60% off for one day, which I thought was weird tbh. What about all those people who bought at 50% thinking they got the best deal, just to feel irritated and disappointed days later? The CineBrass bundle was $399 at 60% off and honestly since then it's the price tag I have for it. It's definitely a bargain at this price point but I see no reason to pay more for it now. Didn't buy it back then because I would have gone over budget and "there will always be a next Black Friday", right? . Well..... . But a sale per sè doesn't reduce the perceived value of a product to me (personal value that is. In my CineBrass example above I think it's quite clear that the price value changed. But it changed because you as a company told me "well, that's what we're willing to sell it to you for". So there is actually no reason for me to accept a higher price point now). Sales in general are so common that it's hard to justify paying for a library without a sale. Sure maybe something would be cool for a project, but I have multiple hard drives filled with samples. There are no "need"-buys anymore. Only "hey, that would be cool to have" or "I actually kinda want that"-buys. So I personally have no trouble waiting, until something is on sale at a price where I say "sure, why not?". Even pre-order and intro-prices don't affect me anymore. I can buy it in two years for cheaper (or whenever it's at a point where I say ("Hm, why not?"). No problem. In the meantime I use what I already have. It's more than enough and nowadays all of extremely good quality.

I feel like in an ideal world there wouldn't be any sales. You would just buy what you need and want and it would cost the same at any given moment. It would just be brilliant and quite relaxing. Like the breaking of waves at the shore. Peaceful. Quiet. Not stressful.. . But I'm also a realist and I know this won't happen like ever. It's no surprise that most developers make most of their money during sales months. Some developers on here offered some insight about that. I, like most people on here I guess, bought so much stuff just because it was on sale and I it's unlikely I would have bought it if it wasn't for FOMO (fear of missing out). I get the whole sales thing. People talk about a product or company a lot more just because there is a sale (so it's "free" marketing in a way). I'm wondering if offering no sales is a sustainable business model, especially for larger companies. My guess is it won't necessarily work and the "no sales"-policy will be abandoned quickly. There is too much competition nowadays. All with high quality products, all trying to get our money. A sale is a good incentive for people to part with their money. I personally like when sales are predictable and not as frequent. Spitfire has a really nice way of doing that imo (exception was the Christian Hanson 100k YT subscriber sale). It always feels kinda classy and laid back and I really like that (the other truth is that I'm not really spending as much money with them as I could tho...). I don't know. I think the market manouvered itself into this state and now there is no going back. Also it's a really, really oversaturated market as far as I can tell, hence increasing prices is quite a ballsy move imo (and quite contradictory to whatever they teach in finance classes in university. Supply and demand yadayadayada), especially since updating the gui or applying new noise reduction etc. won't change the amount of recorded dynamic layers for example. Three was fine a few years ago, but for example five slowly seems to become a new standard for brass (JXLBrass, Berlin Brass gets another layer with the Sine update (which then has at least 4? Or 5 as well? Don't remember). Spitfire's Abbey Road Brass also will have five and is recorded on a scoring stage which is as good and iconic as Sony imo).

Well, with whatever you guys have planned, I wish you good luck! You'll need it. I'm looking forward to see what the updates are improving, especially for CineStrings since that library collects virtual dust on my computer for a while now (pretty much since I bought it). Also I hope my ramblings make sense and are helpful. It's kind late here already and I'm going straight to bed now.


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 3, 2021)

Very interesting insight @Drundfunk, thanks for sharing!


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 3, 2021)

Drundfunk said:


> There is actually this *thread* on here in Sample Talk related to this topic which could give you some good insight.
> For me personally last Black Friday was kinda an eye opener. I noticed it stressed me out more than it should, trying to figure out how to spend my budget. Then certain events didn't help with that (self-inflicted) stress at all (a developer sending out a coupon for additional percentage off for one day, but then increasing the prices on that very day for example. This screwed my entire planning of a whole evening and made me kinda pissed). Your company offered 50% off for Black Friday but then decided to offer 60% off for one day, which I thought was weird tbh. What about all those people who bought at 50% thinking they got the best deal, just to feel irritated and disappointed days later? The CineBrass bundle was $399 at 60% off and honestly since then it's the price tag I have for it. It's definitely a bargain at this price point but I see no reason to pay more for it now. Didn't buy it back then because I would have gone over budget and "there will always be a next Black Friday", right? . Well..... . But a sale per sè doesn't reduce the perceived value of a product to me (personal value that is. In my CineBrass example above I think it's quite clear that the price value changed. But it changed because you as a company told me "well, that's what we're willing to sell it to you for". So there is actually no reason for me to accept a higher price point now). Sales in general are so common that it's hard to justify paying for a library without a sale. Sure maybe something would be cool for a project, but I have multiple hard drives filled with samples. There are no "need"-buys anymore. Only "hey, that would be cool to have" or "I actually kinda want that"-buys. So I personally have no trouble waiting, until something is on sale at a price where I say "sure, why not?". Even pre-order and intro-prices don't affect me anymore. I can buy it in two years for cheaper (or whenever it's at a point where I say ("Hm, why not?"). No problem. In the meantime I use what I already have. It's more than enough and nowadays all of extremely good quality.
> 
> I feel like in an ideal world there wouldn't be any sales. You would just buy what you need and want and it would cost the same at any given moment. It would just be brilliant and quite relaxing. Like the breaking of waves at the shore. Peaceful. Quiet. Not stressful.. . But I'm also a realist and I know this won't happen like ever. It's no surprise that most developers make most of their money during sales months. Some developers on here offered some insight about that. I, like most people on here I guess, bought so much stuff just because it was on sale and I it's unlikely I would have bought it if it wasn't for FOMO (fear of missing out). I get the whole sales thing. People talk about a product or company a lot more just because there is a sale (so it's "free" marketing in a way). I'm wondering if offering no sales is a sustainable business model, especially for larger companies. My guess is it won't necessarily work and the "no sales"-policy will be abandoned quickly. There is too much competition nowadays. All with high quality products, all trying to get our money. A sale is a good incentive for people to part with their money. I personally like when sales are predictable and not as frequent. Spitfire has a really nice way of doing that imo (exception was the Christian Hanson 100k YT subscriber sale). It always feels kinda classy and laid back and I really like that (the other truth is that I'm not really spending as much money with them as I could tho...). I don't know. I think the market manouvered itself into this state and now there is no going back. Also it's a really, really oversaturated market as far as I can tell, hence increasing prices is quite a ballsy move imo (and quite contradictory to whatever they teach in finance classes in university. Supply and demand yadayadayada), especially since updating the gui or applying new noise reduction etc. won't change the amount of recorded dynamic layers for example. Three was fine a few years ago, but for example five slowly seems to become a new standard for brass (JXLBrass, Berlin Brass gets another layer with the Sine update (which then has at least 4? Or 5 as well? Don't remember). Spitfire's Abbey Road Brass also will have five and is recorded on a scoring stage which is as good and iconic as Sony imo).
> ...


I remember a looong time ago hearing a story about an American department store that use to go bonkers on sales, people got fatigued by it and their profits went down the toilet. Another leader stepped in to try to salvage what they could, build the business back up with less salesly sleazy tactics said "no more sales ever, just the honest price".....it was a disaster.


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 3, 2021)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> an American department store


Very interesting, do you remember which one? I'd be curious to look more into this. Different business model for sure, but there's always insight to be gained from research like this.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 3, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> Very interesting, do you remember which one? I'd be curious to look more into this. Different business model for sure, but there's always insight to be gained from research like this.


Ill see if I can dig it up.

The moral of the story was something like:
If your have constant sales, the sales price becomes the norm (eg. East West) and the original is no longer the "Anchor" price. Too few sales (or 0) and more people will be less likely to make the purchase, they want to feel like they "earned" a good price or got a great deal, made a smart purchase decision etc. Balance is key.

I spent over a decade in sales (retail, b2b) and I can tell you, you absolutely need a balance - certainly can't do 0 sales. Some customers will buy at any point for the full price, others will be waiting for the opportunity to get it at the best price possible.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 3, 2021)

How it all went wrong at JCPenney


The economy is humming. Americans are eager to spend on clothes, toys and home decor. Just not at JCPenney.




edition.cnn.com


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## Bman70 (Nov 3, 2021)

reids said:


> Even CSS, who do not do sales have one each year during Black Friday but they have a good customer loyalty model where when you buy one library, you will get a discount on all their other libraries.


That's a good example of a developer I find easy to understand and appealing in price structure. In fact my next big string purchase is likely to be CS2 or CSS during a sale. 

First off, the libraries are attractively priced normally: $299, $399 etc. Great bread and butter prices that sit favorably amongst competition. Along with widely lauded quality. Then a good sale often makes it a no brainer. 

The annual-only sale makes it clear that the sale is special, especially given the already affordable cost. Yet if I was in a rush, I wouldn't feel too bad about missing the 20 or 30% off and buying it immediately. This may be another factor – no 50% off or crazy stuff. Enough incentive to jump on the sale, but not so much to deter year round buying.


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## Mucusman (Nov 3, 2021)

Drundfunk said:


> a company told me "well, that's what we're willing to sell it to you for". So there is actually no reason for me to accept a higher price point now).


Agreed. 

As a hobbyist with limited funds to spend on this hobby, I keep a record of lowest prices I've seen for products I am eyeing (this includes a number of CineSamples libraries). Offering a product at 50% off one day and then 25% the next, well, I won't be jumping at the 25% off sale, surely. Probably like many here I'll bite on the release of a new library that seems either to break new ground in a category I already own one or more libraries, or on a decent sale for something I've been wanting. I'm patient and don't mind waiting even a couple of _years _when it comes to certain libraries because, to me, I'm not willing to jump in at prices above what I find them worth _for me_. There are two libraries I'm watching now (not from CineSamples) that are slowly edging cheaper every few months, but I've already written down what I believe they will eventually sell for. When they hit that point, I'll bite. But note, I don't _need _these packages now for a project, so I can wait.

But I'm not always so methodical. Sometimes the latest shiny object being released lures me in and I buy it. Usually, those are the ones I regret, if I am to regret a purchase. 

My biggest CineSamples purchase involved a bundle that, to my mind, finally hit that point when I couldn't say no (_and _I had the cash to spend on libraries). I can always look back at that purchase with a smile on my face remembering that I got a good deal on some great libraries (here's looking at you CineHarps / CineRuns / HollyWoodwinds bundle!).


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## QuiteAlright (Nov 3, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> Sure, I'll share a bit more information about this one (without letting the cat too far out of the bag).
> 
> First, I regret to announce that this library has hit another setback, and we are looking at this being a 2022 item. I mentioned this has been a hard lesson learned about announcing products in advance. The double edged sword about this is, we then have to be cryptic and secretive until we're ready for a big reveal. On the one hand, mystique; on the other, as has been shared as a valid concern here, the perception of inactivity. We won't always walk that fine line properly, and I'll have to be careful how much I reveal about this library here, but I know people have been waiting for more news about this for a really long time, so I'll share what I can. A lot of things about the feature set and design of this library are under NDA, but I can speak to some of the basics so folks can get a general sense of what this library will be about.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. I think this is great to hear about, and I actually don't mind delays. I would rather hear that a library is delayed, but know that at least it wasn't rushed, instead of not hearing about it at all.


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## MarcusD (Nov 4, 2021)

Personally don’t mind paying a little extra for the base price, providing the library gains new features, improved playability and the samples are being processing with better noise reduction techniques. It’s arguably adding value to them.

For those that already own CS libraries it’s a welcoming update. Providing the new updates don’t require you to pay for them..?

It’s understandable to charge for such things when lots of dev time has gone into it. But at the surface level, if it’s not a major improvement to the product and customers have to pay for updates, I don’t think many would bother. In their eyes it has to be more than just a patch to be worth it.


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## FrozenIcicle (Nov 4, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> Hey @FrozenIcicle! I know it's been awhile since we had a presence here, and it may take some time for me to demonstrate that I'm actually here and things are really different around here, but I am, and they are.
> 
> For 14 years, this company has had only a small handful of full-time employees. As of the beginning of 2021, Mike took us in a whole new direction. There are now 16 people on our team. We brought in a whole new crew of sample developers, software engineers, and more. We made some big decisions regarding our focus in product development, and one such decision was to revisit, update, and upgrade many of our libraries that haven't been touched in years.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your reply, again I'm unhappy with the timing but lesson learnt I guess. I'll get over it soon and will end up buying your stuff lol Goodluck with the expansion


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## Collywobbles (Nov 4, 2021)

Bman70 said:


> Of course, when your client demographic is musicians, it's already a little strange, as these people are sometimes choosing between how much they eat and their next brass library.


So what you're saying is that the reason I'm getting fat is because I'm not buying enough sample libraries?


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## cqd (Nov 4, 2021)

Collywobbles said:


> So what you're saying is that the reason I'm getting fat is because I'm not buying enough sample libraries?


Since I've tried to curtail my sample library purchases I have noticed the gut getting out of control..


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 4, 2021)

MarcusD said:


> Providing the new updates don’t require you to pay for them..?


Great question -- there are three update types in the works, and only one of them is a paid upgrade.

The paid upgrades are for products that were originally released without NI encoding to make the compatible with Kontakt Player/NKS. We're getting a handful of such products re-encoded, which incurs cost on our end for NI's involvement in encoding and building Native Access installers, as well as for us to purchase serial codes for the libraries. In these cases, there is a nominal upgrade fee for existing owners of the non-encoded version, to cover the cost of serials. We most recently did this with Piano In Blue, and have it in the works for Drums of War 1+2, Deep Percussion Beds 1+2, and CineOrch (being renamed to Orchestral Chords), plus Viola da Gamba and Dulcimer & Zither.

We are also doing updates for products that have already been encoded, and won't need a new serial code for the new version. This includes some of our libraries that have Kontakt Player but not NKS encoding or Native Access delivery, as well as the massive overhaul we're doing for the CineSymphony series (starting with CineStrings CORE). The updates for already-encoded products will be free for existing owners, so if you pick up any encoded products during the sale that are getting upgraded soon, you will those available through Native Access as soon as they are ready.


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## william81723 (Nov 4, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> Quatre is a performance-based session strings library. This means based on your performance on your controller, not recorded phrases. This library has long note pads (no legato), a variety of short notes including pizzicato and col legno, and an engine for generating patterns, arpeggios, and rhythmic figures using the recorded samples.


A "performance-based" strings and long notes without legato... Did I misunderstand something?


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 4, 2021)

william81723 said:


> A "performance-based" strings and long notes without legato... Did I misunderstand something?


Let me see if I can explain it a bit differently, it's difficult in the abstract without being able to show the instrument -- the sequencer function in Quatre is one of the primary features, creating rhythmic patterns from the chords you play on your keyboard and auto-arranging your performance among the string sections that you have loaded. You play, and the library performs. It is not for performing legato string lines -- there are plenty of solutions for this, and we're trying to do something different with this library. 

I'm probably gonna have to keep my mouth shut about this one now until we have more details ready to announce. 

After the library is released I'll share the story of how part of why it took so long is because our scripter had to consult two full-blown _math professors_ on how to create some of the features. Whoops...


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## Henu (Nov 4, 2021)

Oh, I have a question which begs to be asked for my sanity, given that I've just spent 2 hours updating my raw template because of this.

For the love of all gods in Valhalla, would it be possible to just overwrite into the old patches with the new data when there's an update on a product? I've built a rather complex system with all sorts of tweaks and split articulations over the years and it struck me today (yes, I'm sometimes a bit slow) that all them are _still loading whatever 1.2 versions of the patches_ despite of me updating them regularly. Because if I'm not manually updating every single patch inside every Kontakt instance from scratch, the update isn't magically going to install itself into the template.

Unless, of course, I've got it all wrong and wasted two hours of my life for doing something which could had been done in five minutes - which would actually make me more glad than sad because I still have about 75% of that said work left. :D


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## Aitcpiano (Nov 4, 2021)

This all sounds great and I like the sound of the Cinesymphony series all getting significant updates but I cant actually see anything happening, just a refresh of the website and a price increase. When is the first big updates actually going to start happening? will Cinesamples be releasing their own sample player or keeping to Kontakt? Also, is their going to be a way to complete a bundle?


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 4, 2021)

Henu said:


> For the love of all gods in Valhalla, would it be possible to just overwrite into the old patches with the new data when there's an update on a product?





Henu said:


> Because if I'm not manually updating every single patch inside every Kontakt instance from scratch, the update isn't magically going to install itself into the template.


I feel your pain, and agree it would be awesome if there were a way to do this. The reality of developing for Kontakt is that each new update for a library involves creating a whole new set of .nki files, and this does mean that templates need to be rebuilt when there are updates. I'm doing my best to be explicitly clear as often as I can, with regard to the forthcoming updates -- *every single one of them will require a full reinstallation through Native Access, and you will need to make your own backups of your current existing installations for the sake of opening old projects.*

The CineSymphony updates will also require at minimum Kontakt 6.6, as does the new Piano In Blue, for some new engine features that require this version. As with any updates, always plan to update between projects, and have contingencies and backups in place.


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 4, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> When is the first big updates actually going to start happening?


Great question! The first update was the re-encoding upgrade of Piano In Blue, released a few weeks ago: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/piano-in-blue-discussion.67976/post-4933759

We are no longer announcing specific release dates for products in advance, because there are timeline factors in our development cycle that are completely out of our control -- namely, how long it takes to get products back from Native Instruments, and other 3rd-party involvement.

The next upgrades coming are re-encoding upgrades for Drums of War 1+2, Deep Percussion Beds 1+2, and CineOrch (which is being renamed to "Orchestral Chords"). There are also a handful of other libraries that are already encoded but getting NKS encoding/Native Access delivery. CineHarpischord should be available for Native Access delivery any day now. A Hollywoodwinds update is coming soon, with a nice GUI touch-up.

Most of the projects we've been working on all year are coming together all at the same time, and over the next few weeks we anticipate being able to share a lot of things in rapid succession as we have them in hand. At this time we're working on a ton of updates for our Kontakt libraries, and are continuing to develop new products -- some of which are just getting off the ground. We didn't just bring in a whole new team to update our existing line -- they're doing a great job with that, but we're looking at long-term library development plans for the future too.

Complete-your-Bundle is something that we have been wanting to do for awhile. Without getting into the boring details about e-commerce platforms, we have some work to do on our end to be able to deliver this. We want to, and we know it's something our customers want as well. We appreciate everyone bearing with us while we get the myriad projects coming together out the door so we can start working on the already-giant-and-ever-growing pile of "what's next." I'll be here on the regular to make sure everyone on VIC has the most up-to-date info they may need, and always happy to answer questions as you have them


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## Henu (Nov 4, 2021)

Thank you for the response! However, I am a bit confused. You say first that...


Cinesamples-SG said:


> I feel your pain, and agree it would be awesome if there were a way to do this. The reality of developing for Kontakt is that each new update for a library involves creating a whole new set of .nki files, and this does mean that templates need to be rebuilt when there are updates.


...which I understand in a way that "sorry, we can't overwrite the old patches so every time there is an update you need to do them manually".

But then when you say....


Cinesamples-SG said:


> ...*forthcoming updates -- every single one of them will require a full reinstallation through Native Access, and you will need to make your own backups of your current existing installations for the sake of opening old projects.*


....it sounds to me the exact opposite, which is not happening right now with updates and which is what I was hoping to happen. 

Does this mean that you are changing to the "overwriting of the patches- method" in the future? That would be super at least from my point of view. Because that's also how most of the developers do things, so it would make more sense to me.


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 6, 2021)

Henu said:


> Does this mean that you are changing to the "overwriting of the patches- method" in the future?


Happy to clarify! The new updates will not automatically overwrite and replace patches in your projects. They are completely new sample content files (treated, not re-recorded) and .nki instrument files, as far as Native Access and Kontakt are concerned. It will be considered CineStrings CORE version 2.0 in Native Access. Projects and templates using the prior v1.4 or one of the older versions will not automatically recognize the new patches, and will need to be manually reloaded.

Since these updated versions will need to be installed via Native Access, by clicking "Reinstall" rather than from the "Available Updates" tab, they would overwrite the installed library on your system if Native Access tried to install the library to the same location. This is why we recommend copying or moving your current installation to a different location before installing the new version.

Hope this helps clear things up!


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## easyrider (Nov 6, 2021)

Is Cinestrings SOLO getting an update too..?


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 6, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Is Cinestrings SOLO getting an update too..?


Eventually, yes! The new GUI design will be applied to the other CineSymphony libraries one by one. There will be some special cases like CineHarps and CineStrings RUNS that require their own considerations and may take a bit longer. We aren't disclosing the order in which the CineSymphony line will be updated, beyond saying that we're starting with CineStrings CORE.


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## easyrider (Nov 6, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> Eventually, yes! The new GUI design will be applied to the other CineSymphony libraries one by one. There will be some special cases like CineHarps and CineStrings RUNS that require their own considerations and may take a bit longer. We aren't disclosing the order in which the CineSymphony line will be updated, beyond saying that we're starting with CineStrings CORE.


Ok cheers 👍


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## cqd (Nov 13, 2021)

Am I imagining things or did the price of cinepiano go up as well?..


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## dts_marin (Nov 13, 2021)

cqd said:


> Am I imagining things or did the price of cinepiano go up as well?..


Yes I used to find it on sale for $99 but now it goes for $125 on sale.
Wayback Machine confirms this is the case.
https://web.archive.org/web/20201109011403/https://cinesamples.com/product/cinepiano


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## cqd (Nov 13, 2021)

dts_marin said:


> Yes I used to find it on sale for $99 but now it goes for $125 on sale.
> Wayback Machine confirms this is the case.
> https://web.archive.org/web/20201109011403/https://cinesamples.com/product/cinepiano


Yeah, was thinking as much..I was just about to buy it..
This is the first time the price rises have affected me..
It's an outrage..


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## Henu (Nov 13, 2021)

Come on, this topic has been already beaten to death. They have already told exactly why the prices were raised and why they (and to be honest, I as well) think it's justified. Yes, they did the price bump a bit wrong with all that secrecy and whatnot but that too has been acknowledged.

Besides, we're talking about a couple of tens of dollars here per library anyway. With the current pricing trend in sample libraries compared to 10 years ago, I don't think I can really complain even though I have to pay now 125 dollars instead of 99. In the earlier days, you would had prolly paid 300 and still be happy. 

Sample libraries are so goddamn cheap nowadays and the sales are constant Christmas and Black Friday combined throughout the year- and still we are complaining that "not fair, we need to pay 25 dollars more than last year".


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## easyrider (Nov 13, 2021)

Shall I close this thread?


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## Hendrixon (Nov 13, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Shall I close this thread?


Why?
People have the right to voice their thoughts.
I'm sure if this was a 12 page of butt kissing thread, no one would even complain.
Sometimes VI-C can be really a two face pathetic experience


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## Futchibon (Nov 13, 2021)

Henu said:


> Come on, this topic has been already beaten to death. They have already told exactly why the prices were raised and why they (and to be honest, I as well) think it's justified. Yes, they did the price bump a bit wrong with all that secrecy and whatnot but that too has been acknowledged.


Respectfully, yet strongly disagree. The other companies that have increased prices on the pretext that it is to fund future updates are.....?






Henu said:


> Besides, we're talking about a couple of tens of dollars here per library anyway.


Would you mind shouting me the extra $16 to buy CInebrass Core? 


Henu said:


> Sample libraries are so goddamn cheap nowadays and the sales are constant Christmas and Black Friday combined throughout the year- and still we are complaining that "not fair, we need to pay 25 dollars more than last year".


Faulty analogy. WHy has CS done it and no-one else?


easyrider said:


> Shall I close this thread?


Surely not! CS should remain accountable.

Perhaps edit your OP and put a poll to see what the consensus is amongst the vi-c community as to whether the pricehike was fair? I certainly don't think it was.


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## easyrider (Nov 13, 2021)

Hendrixon said:


> Why?
> People have the right to voice their thoughts.
> I'm sure if this was a 12 page of butt kissing thread, no one would even complain.
> Sometimes VI-C can be really a two face pathetic experience


I just meant is there any more to be said about it….they have raised their prices….they have explained why….we all have a choice wether to buy the products or not…


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## Nico5 (Nov 13, 2021)

Futchibon said:


> whether the pricehike was fair?


Is there even such a thing as "fair" in pricing?

i.e. Isn't good pricing where the value proposition for enough buyers meets the financial needs/desires of the seller? i.e. supply and demand rather than "fairness"?

To be honest, as a consumer I seldom really think in terms of "fair" around pricing, but more in terms of my very subjective affordability and usefulness of the thing I'm contemplating to buy.

Sometimes a sale brings additional products into my subjective "compelling value proposition" window. Nothing more and nothing less. And if a seller doesn't hit that very subjective window of mine, then I just have to live without that product.


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## clonewar (Nov 13, 2021)

I haven’t been keeping up with this and just checked the Cinesamples site....WOW! The normal price of CineSymphony complete went from $3399 to $4499!! That’s a huge price increase, not ‘a couple of tens of dollars’.

In the past year I’ve gotten into StaffPad and have purchased several of the CS libraries for SP. This year I was planning on picking up CS Complete during Black Friday. Last year it was $1359 during their BF sale, and there have been no new additions to the Complete bundle.

I’ve been buying sample libraries for a loooong time and I have a simple rule for pricing (that really applies to all software in general).. I’ll never pay more for a library than the lowest price I’ve ever seen it for. Ever. The reason is that it'll always be available at that price again in the future (and almost always lower). So, unless they run a very special BF sale that matches last year’s price (which is possible), I’ll be spending my BF funds on other libraries.

CS has every right to price their products as they see fit, but it seems like it’s too competitive of a market to be the only company with large price hikes. I can’t be the only potential customer that will choose not to purchase CS libraries because of the increase.


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 13, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Shall I close this thread?


I have no problem with this thread staying up and open.



Hendrixon said:


> People have the right to voice their thoughts.


This is absolutely true.


Futchibon said:


> CS should remain accountable.


So is this, though I have made it clear in several posts that the price change is remaining in effect, and we have explained the reasoning behind the decision. We understand there are those who disagree, and they have a right to their opinion, just as we have the right to stand by our decision.



Futchibon said:


> on the pretext that it is to fund future updates


I would like to make it clear that the funding of future updates is only one component of the decision behind the price increase. We have many significant projects in development, and have an entirely new team that is *five times* the size it was for many years.

I know that there will be simple points of disagreement, but if there's anything specific that I haven't addressed in an earlier post that would help clarify our position on this matter, let me know!


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 13, 2021)

clonewar said:


> The reason is that it'll always be available at that price again in the future


This is not necessarily true. Particularly with Bundles, as we expand the product lines, the price of Bundles that contain those products increases. We are moving away from doing large discounts on products as frequently as we have done in the past. We have our reasons for this, and we have some exciting announcements to make in this regard soon.


clonewar said:


> there have been no new additions to the Complete bundle.


CineBrass Horns of the Deep was released in December 2020, as the latest addition to the CineSymphony product line/CineSymphony Complete Bundle. 



clonewar said:


> unless they run a very special BF sale that matches last year’s price (which is possible),


We will not be increasing discounts for products that are currently on sale for Black Friday/Cyber Monday. We know we did this last year and it caused some frustration among users who purchased prior to those dates and missed the extra discount. Everything that's on sale for 50% off right now for the month of November will remain at 50% off for the month of November.

If you ever find yourself in a situation where you make a purchase within a week or so of a product going on sale, please always feel free to reach out to us at [email protected] and we'll take care of you.


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## ResidentSmeagol (Nov 13, 2021)

I bought Randy's prepared piano even with the higher sale price and it's great.

If you're a professional, then price isn't a big deal. I need something when I need it. Besides it gets written off anyway.

If you're a hobbyist, I can understand maybe balking at a higher price, but still one would think it's better to spend one's time creating music than watching for endless sales. If I buy something and it's a lower price a year later, I just chalk it up to the fact that I got to use that library for a year over someone who didn't buy it because they were camping on it waiting for a sale for a year.


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 13, 2021)

clonewar said:


> In the past year I’ve gotten into StaffPad and have purchased several of the CS libraries for SP.


My apologies, I missed this detail -- the StaffPad app is solely responsible for pricing and sales on their app. They are an entirely separate platform, and our pricing change does not affect their situation and vice versa. StaffPad in-app purchases are handled via the iOS App Store or Windows Store, which does not touch our e-commerce platform or website.


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## Thundercat (Nov 13, 2021)

I know this has been said, but it bears repeating: CS do not owe us a certain price on their products, and fairness is not at issue.

They make terrific libraries. They raised their prices.

If they get a loss less sales going forward, guess what? They’ll lower their prices. The market dictates the price. That’s capitalism.

I don’t think capitalism is a good system for reasons I won’t get into here, but until we change it, it is what it is.


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## jazzman7 (Nov 13, 2021)

Saying out loud the things that go through our minds as we react to the way pricing is handled is part of the market process. People lay out the frustration they feel when a "Half Price" sale goes up immediately after an unannounced price increase, and this puts pressure on developers to explain or modify their behavior. This also helps the larger community stay informed on the pros and cons.

This forum has helped me make smarter decisions. I can lay out my thoughts on these things and hear whether they are confirmed or contradicted. 

Watching people gripe, and seeing others gripe at their griping, is pretty useful.

At least Cinesamples is on here now and paying attention. That's the market doing it's thing. The sausage making can be messy at times, but we won't get it simply by waving a magic wand


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## Zanshin (Nov 13, 2021)

Nicely said @jazzman7. I would also caution people not to make purchases based on updates (promised or assumed) that solve particular issues. Those updates may never come. Make purchases based on what it is right now.


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## jazzman7 (Nov 13, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> Nicely said @jazzman7. I would also caution people not to make purchases based on updates (promised or assumed) that solve particular issues. Those updates may never come. Make purchases based on what it is right now.


Thanks! I agree about purchasing based on updates. Heck, even with 20 demos and walk thru's I still wrestle with plenty of purchases.... Especially the high $$$ ones


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## Hendrixon (Nov 13, 2021)

easyrider said:


> I just meant is there any more to be said about it….they have raised their prices….they have explained why….we all have a choice wether to buy the products or not…


_is there any more to be said about it_
Is there anything more to say about BBCSO? absolutely 110% not, should Mike G' close all BBCSO threads?

_they have raised their prices….they have explained why_
So what? this discussion, this subject, is way beyond CS them selves.
The problem is not CS, they will find out in the near future whether this decision was good or bad or neutral to their bottom line.
The problem is that this act can send ripples to other participants that watch how this will unfold.
Trust me, when companies see their market tolerate price increases? guess what they will do.

_we all have a choice wether to buy the products or not…_
100%, but what does that have to do with anything?
What ticked me off was (and is a thing on VI-C) yet another voice of hi moral that wants to silence people's thoughts when they are not praise/worship/sugarcoating/buttkissing.
This is not directed at you specifically, but all those that did it on this thread... and other threads.


If this was CS's manufacturer thread on the manufacturers forum I would agree to some of these voices.
But this is Sample Talk, its a users discussion. Cinesamples-SG participation here is just like anyone else.


Disclaimer:
I own several CS libraries, recommend them to others, and have no issue with the company.
As I said, this is a users forum and the issue is beyond CS.

Btw, I didn't voice my thoughts here because I don't need the drama, I just buy what I want or don't. but I will say this, I work in IT from the early 90s, I don't remember ever a software company raising prices on products without adding and broadening them.
Bug fixes? polishing? re-coding? you price that as updates/maintenance outside the product price... that's NOT a reason to rise the price.
You CAN rise a product's price if you add to it, but they are not doing that.


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## Thundercat (Nov 13, 2021)

Hendrixon said:


> _is there any more to be said about it_
> Is there anything more to say about BBCSO? absolutely 110% not, should Mike G' close all BBCSO threads?
> 
> _they have raised their prices….they have explained why_
> ...


So bread and milk are going up. They are not any better than previous years. No value add, nothing to justify it save market forces, inflation, greed…

There is no “owe” here. CS can do what they want. I don’t like it, and it absolutely will affect my purchase decisions going forward. But this is the market at work.

They will lower their prices if sales drop. So we can choose not to buy, this isn’t a monopoly


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## Futchibon (Nov 13, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> Is there even such a thing as "fair" in pricing?


Very existential for the weekend! 

I guess it's relative to all other developers. CS is clearly an outlier in this regard, which is why many of us see it as unfair.


clonewar said:


> I haven’t been keeping up with this and just checked the Cinesamples site....WOW! The normal price of CineSymphony complete went from $3399 to $4499!! That’s a huge price increase, not ‘a couple of tens of dollars’.


Yep, Tina Guo is another example - the hike was massive. And it's unfair because new people looking at it will prpbably want to read reviews and opinions, such as those on here, which are generally glowing - mine included. But that's based on the original price. TG was incredible bang-for-buck. But now that's priced similar to, say, Emotional Cello, its flaws such as limited arts and dated scripting, are much more apparent.


Cinesamples-SG said:


> We have many significant projects in development, and have an entirely new team that is *five times* the size it was for many years.


Writing *in bold* doesn't make your decision any less of an outlier! 



Thundercat said:


> They make terrific libraries.


A lot of other companies make terrific libraries. CS libraries are quite dated in terms of scripting.


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## easyrider (Nov 13, 2021)

jazzman7 said:


> Thanks! I agree about purchasing based on updates. Heck, even with 20 demos and walk thru's I still wrestle with plenty of purchases.... Especially the high $$$ ones


I bought the Cinesamples Bundle from Native Instruments on sale for 75% off and although a fantastic deal I alway felt that the strings were noisy….hopefully they clean them up in the new update.


Hendrixon said:


> _is there any more to be said about it_
> Is there anything more to say about BBCSO? absolutely 110% not, should Mike G' close all BBCSO threads?
> 
> _they have raised their prices….they have explained why_
> ...


Ultimate power lies with the Consumer….you have that power…just don’t buy anymore libraries from CS if you think the price hike is not justified…

By all means post your thoughts, that’s why I started this thread but will it change anything? I was disappointed when I went to buy Tina Guo as said in my OP. But tbh I’m over it…I didn’t buy it.

I‘m Surprised this thread is still going tbh.




Hendrixon said:


> If this was CS's manufacturer thread on the manufacturers forum I would agree to some of these voices.
> But this is Sample Talk, its a users discussion. Cinesamples-SG participation here is just like anyone else.


Fair enough


Hendrixon said:


> Disclaimer:
> I own several CS libraries, recommend them to others, and have no issue with the company.
> As I said, this is a users forum and the issue is beyond CS.
> 
> ...


Cinesamples can technically do what they want….


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## Trash Panda (Nov 13, 2021)

I’m really curious to see how this all shakes out. 

I mean if they were having to regularly run 50%-60% off sales on a regular basis and they think a price hike and a future no sales policy is going to work out the way they expect for a refresh on their existing libraries, they might want to pay closer attention to what happened with Opus. 

That price hike and no sales period barely lasted more than a few months.


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## Futchibon (Nov 13, 2021)

Thundercat said:


> So bread and milk are going up. They are not any better than previous years. No value add, nothing to justify it save market forces, inflation, greed…


Another faulty analogy. Sample library prices aren't going up, only Cinesamples libraries. 


Thundercat said:


> I don’t think capitalism is a good system for reasons I won’t get into here, but until we change it, it is what it is.







(Joking, I agree with you)


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 13, 2021)

easyrider said:


> hopefully they clean them up in the new update.


For anyone who may have missed it, I have posted a sneak preview of the new update for CineStrings CORE. The entire sample set has gone through a very meticulous noise reduction and re-editing process and is getting a drastic scripting update, in addition to the new GUI on display in that thread.


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## Futchibon (Nov 13, 2021)

easyrider said:


> I‘m Surprised this thread is still going tbh.


I feel the exact opposite - I'm sure as people become aware that CS are the only sample company to raise their prices without delivering anything in immediate return, this will cause great frustration and people will want somewhere to vent.


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## Robert_G (Nov 13, 2021)

Futchibon said:


> Yep, Tina Guo is another example - the hike was massive. And it's unfair because new people looking at it will prpbably want to read reviews and opinions, such as those on here, which are generally glowing - mine included. But that's based on the original price. TG was incredible bang-for-buck.* But now that's priced similar to, say, Emotional Cello,* its flaws such as limited arts and dated scripting, are much more apparent.


I think this is one of the better examples of bad choices from Cinesamples in raising prices.
Tina Guo is a decent product, but in no way does it compare to Emotional Cello. Emotional Cello is the most comprehensive solo cello on the market today. Even if you like the tone and sound of TG better, there is no where near as much time and effort put into TG as Emotional Cello. This sort of thing just adds to my suspicion of the price increases.


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## Hendrixon (Nov 13, 2021)

Thundercat said:


> So bread and milk are going up. They are not any better than previous years. No value add, nothing to justify it save market forces, inflation, greed…


You can't compare software to Milk 
Lets say you decide to invest in building your own dairy farm.
After you cover your upfront investment, any liter of milk you sell still costs you money to produce it.
You have costs for labor, cows feed, electricity, vets etc etc etc in ANY new liter of milk you sell.
Labor costs go up, you must raise milk price, cows feed goes up, you must raise milk price.
Its the same liter of milk, but the cost to produce it goes up.

Software is different.
Once the product is finished, as long as it works? there is ZERO labor on the code to sell more.
You can fire all your personal, close office, seat at home and manage your business from your laptop and your product will work the same way.
At that stage, your cost for selling another copy/license goes between nothing to a tiny fraction.
Once you break even on the upfront investment? almost all your income is gross profit.
When you store bits, you don't need a warehouse, an office, a secretary, cars, trucks yadda yadda yadda.

All costs that relate to software went down CONSIDERABLY since some of CS's products seen day light almost a decade ago. website hosing and maintenance? network bandwidth? where are those compared to 10 years ago? name one expense that went up... just one 

And that's the reason why software products, unless broadened, always go down in price or stay the same if they are market leaders (like say Toontrack in our niche world).

Cine?
I don't know what possessed them to do what they did 
I can think off several ways to rise revenue but that clearly is not one of them. its not even the last 
Who ever gave them the advice that software is milk is beyond me.

Btw, even though I advised someone just recently that Cinebrass is still worth it at 50% sale after the price hike, for me, I won't buy more CS products unless they will ADD to them new content.


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## Hendrixon (Nov 13, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Cinesamples can technically do what they want….


No one is disputing that


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## Futchibon (Nov 13, 2021)

Perhaps @Cinesamples-SG can comment on the screenshot below from BestService. Your product has a great rating of nearly 5 stars from 55 reviewers, but they are based on the former retail price of $99, whereas now the retail price is $179. Given value-for-money is a major factor in a review, shouldn't you either a) inform buyers about this increase in the description, or b) ask BestService to start reviews again? Be happy to leave another review based on the new price!


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 13, 2021)

Futchibon said:


> Perhaps @Cinesamples-SG can comment on the screenshot below from BestService.


Best Service is a 3rd-party site who controls their own platform. We don't write their messaging or dictate their rating/review policy.

Best Service and Native Instruments agreed to the pricing structure change and our products are available from these vendors at the new prices.


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## clonewar (Nov 13, 2021)

@Cinesamples-SG first off I want to say that I really do appreciate that you're here and engaging in these discussions. I intend for my comments to come across as genuine customer/potential-customer feedback.



Cinesamples-SG said:


> This is not necessarily true. Particularly with Bundles, as we expand the product lines, the price of Bundles that contain those products increases...
> 
> CineBrass Horns of the Deep was released in December 2020, as the latest addition to the CineSymphony product line/CineSymphony Complete Bundle.



That's right, I forgot that Horns of the Deep was added to the bundle after the last BF sale. The price of the bundle wasn't raised after adding HotD though, but the library wasn't in there for the 60% off BF discount. I could definitely understand and expect to pay more with the addition, but not $1100 more (about $900 more at the current discount compared to last BF's price) for the addition of a $149 ($75 on sale) library. It's really an unprecedented price increase, and comparing it to the relatively smaller increases in your other libraries and bundles makes it seem like CS are trying to discourage customers from purchasing the CS Complete bundle altogether.



> We are moving away from doing large discounts on products as frequently as we have done in the past. We have our reasons for this, and we have some exciting announcements to make in this regard soon.


That's definitely your company's prerogative, but when a company has a history of running frequent steep discounts then it feels like that train has already left the station. I'm sure that's why other developers that run frequent deep discounts have started 'separate' companies with new names and products to try to establish a no-discount/no-sale culture from the beginning. And we'll find out if they're able to stick to those policies over time.



> We will not be increasing discounts for products that are currently on sale for Black Friday/Cyber Monday. We know we did this last year and it caused some frustration among users who purchased prior to those dates and missed the extra discount. Everything that's on sale for 50% off right now for the month of November will remain at 50% off for the month of November.


That's good to know, thanks.


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## Futchibon (Nov 13, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> Best Service is a 3rd-party site who controls their own platform. We don't write their messaging or dictate their rating/review policy.
> 
> Best Service and Native Instruments agreed to the pricing structure change and our products are available from these vendors at the new prices.


You don't think it's ethically dubious to be selling a product at a massive price increase, with a bunch of reviews based on the previous price?


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## Aitcpiano (Nov 13, 2021)

When will bundle pricing be coming taking into account previous products owned? I sent over an email regarding already owning some products in the Cinesymphony core bundle and possibly getting discount for products already owned in it but I haven't got a reply.


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## clonewar (Nov 13, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> My apologies, I missed this detail -- the StaffPad app is solely responsible for pricing and sales on their app. They are an entirely separate platform, and our pricing change does not affect their situation and vice versa. StaffPad in-app purchases are handled via the iOS App Store or Windows Store, which does not touch our e-commerce platform or website.


I understand that library purchases in StaffPad are separate from Kontakt libraries purchased on your website. I just mentioned SP because those libraries were my first hands-on exposure to CineSymphony libraries and made me interested in purchasing the Kontakt libraries. 

I typically start planning my Black Friday library purchases earlier in the year (what can I say, I've been conditioned into having a library purchasing cycle) and I've been planning on picking up the Complete bundle as my main Black Friday purchase this year, so I'm just a little disappointed in the situation.


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## Hendrixon (Nov 13, 2021)

Futchibon said:


> You don't think it's ethically dubious to be selling a product at a massive price increase, with a bunch of reviews based on the previous price?


I agree with CS, that should be directed at Best Service


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 13, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> When will bundle pricing be coming taking into account previous products owned?


I've said in a few posts on here that this is something we plan to address eventually. We do not have a timeline available for when this will be rolled out -- it will not happen before the end of the year. We have too many other projects in development to address this request in the immediate term.



Aitcpiano said:


> but I haven't got a reply.


Sorry to hear this! PM me your email address, I'll see if I can find your ticket!


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## Kony (Nov 13, 2021)

Futchibon said:


> CS libraries are quite dated


They are indeed which makes me wonder how many members on here don't already have all the libraries they'd need from CS.

CS have given their reasons for the price increases which seem perfectly acceptable - that they want to grow as a company and are using the increases to help pay for that. 



Futchibon said:


> A lot of other companies make terrific libraries.


So do Cinesamples - which is the reason why John Powell still uses some of their libraries in his 2021 template.


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## RonOrchComp (Nov 13, 2021)

Futchibon said:


> CS libraries are quite dated in terms of scripting.



Have you seen the scripts? How would you know they are dated? And what exactly do you mean by "dated" when it comes to the scripts?



Futchibon said:


> You don't think it's ethically dubious to be selling a product at a massive price increase, with a bunch of reviews based on the previous price?


 No - not ethically dubious in any way shape or form.

I am no fan of this price hike, but that's going to far.


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## Thundercat (Nov 13, 2021)

Futchibon said:


> I feel the exact opposite - I'm sure as people become aware that CS are the only sample company to raise their prices without delivering anything in immediate return, this will cause great frustration and people will want somewhere to vent.


I feel like what’s getting lost here is CS is providing a massive update to both scripting, sample denoising, and GUI.

This is value add. This, to me, justifies a price hike.

But what do I know I’m just a commie 😂


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## Thundercat (Nov 13, 2021)

Also, with such venom displayed here it’s a wonder developers ever dare post.

Thank you CS for posting here with the exciting news of the coming updates. Sorry for the huge backlash. I feel like the forum users have a valid point as the price hikes are really really high. But I do love your libraries.


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## clonewar (Nov 13, 2021)

Thundercat said:


> I feel like what’s getting lost here is CS is providing a massive update to both scripting, sample denoising, and GUI.
> 
> This is value add. This, to me, justifies a price hike.
> 
> But what do I know I’m just a commie 😂


I agree that if it's a paid update then the price of the library could be raised to reflect that. But other developers that have updated their instruments, or even developed their own players, have either charged nominal upgrade fees or no fees at all. And it typically doesn't affect the new purchase price of the library, unless we're talking about a price _decrease_.

This has become a crowded market with a lot of different players (no pun intended). I think the reason that this thread is still going is because for some of us, especially those of us that have been purchasing libraries for a while and have seen the market develop from its infancy, the pricing is a real surprise. I don't normally participate in these types of discussions, but I happened to be planning on buying CS Complete during BF sales so it's very relevant for me right now.


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## axb312 (Nov 13, 2021)

I would advise just not buying any Cinesamples Libs till the prices come back down....


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## Futchibon (Nov 13, 2021)

RonOrchComp said:


> Have you seen the scripts? How would you know they are dated? And what exactly do you mean by "dated" when it comes to the scripts?


I read on the internet they are dated so it must be true 

It's an inference from the playability. Have you played TGACL1? Lovely tone, but it's a 2013 release, and the infinite bowing update, while nice, doesn't change the fact that it doesn't play as well as more recent solo strings.


RonOrchComp said:


> No - not ethically dubious in any way shape or form.
> 
> I am no fan of this price hike, but that's going to far.


You're entitled to your opinion! But the fact that @Cinesamples-SG has ignored my post and aren't offering to contact Bestservice to notify potential buyers the existing reviews are bogus, is not encouraging.

For instance, here is a review of AGACL1 from the Best Serrvice website:

Für den Preis ein absolut brauchbares Cello, auch wenn dieses nur in einer Artikulation vorliegt.

TRANSLATION:

"An absolutely usable cello for the price, even if it is only available in one articulation".

So the review is clearly based on the original price. Plenty of the others are, too.


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## Futchibon (Nov 13, 2021)

axb312 said:


> I would advise just not buying any Cinesamples Libs till the prices come back down....


+1


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## Leighbeater (Nov 13, 2021)

I'm not buying, was going to buy Cinebrass... I will buy OPUS when time is right


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## David Cuny (Nov 14, 2021)

Futchibon said:


> You don't think it's ethically dubious to be selling a product at a massive price increase, with a bunch of reviews based on the previous price?


I'm also not a fan of the price hike, but accusing a CS of being "ethically dubious" crosses a line.

By this logic, any review should state if the purchaser got the item on sale, as the value/price ratio would otherwise be different than what it is when not on sale.

When there is inflation, is a reseller obliged to remove any reviews mentioning value, as the purchasing power is now diminished relative to what it was before?

Should a reseller expected to remove reviews every time a new library becomes available that has new or comparable features?

This is simply unreasonable, _especially_ since these are reviews on a _reseller's website_.


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## Futchibon (Nov 14, 2021)

David Cuny said:


> I'm also not a fan of the price hike, but accusing a CS of being "ethically dubious" crosses a line.


I didn't actually do this. I asked them if they thought it constituted this; they haven't replied.


David Cuny said:


> By this logic, any review should state if the purchaser got the item on sale, as the value/price ratio would otherwise be different than what it is when not on sale.


I'd disagree; the CS price-hike is unprecedented in the sampling world.

In any case, I've emailed Best Service with my concerns and will report back.


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## Henu (Nov 14, 2021)

Besides, who the hell bases a review solely or even mostly on _price_? 

There's a reason why people buy Orchestral Tools instead of Kirk Hunter and I can tell you it's prolly not about the price.


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## Crowe (Nov 14, 2021)

Henu said:


> Besides, who the hell bases a review solely or even mostly on _price_?
> 
> There's a reason why people buy Orchestral Tools instead of Kirk Hunter and I can tell you it's prolly not about the price.


Indeed. It's surely because of an ethereal effect that causes people to view KH having not being the god-tier libraries they actually are.

On topic: As someone who has been in software for most of their career, this stuff is mind-boggling. While there is definitely nothing 'morally questionable' about raising prices on your software, I've never seen a price-hike like this on *old software*. Software does not simply appreciate in value. Data doesn't magically become worth more for no reason.

I had a couple of Cinesamples libraries on my wishlist but I can safely say that I want nothing to do with this 'new management' and whatever they're smoking.


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## Frederick (Nov 14, 2021)

It seems to me that the Tina Guo price hike should be seen in light of that most copies probably are sold when on 50% off sale, so in Dollars it's only $40 extra.

I also think that compared to other solo cello offerings $49.50 for Tina Guo maybe was too cheap. It's simply a repositioning based on perceived product quality in relation to the price of its competitors. Maybe they even felt the low price was degrading the quality of the product as perceived by potential buyers.

Of course it's easy for me to say as I got it for $49.50 and I have to admit I may not have picked it up if it had been twice the price, especially because there are two. Then again the bundle only is $115 on sale. I would definitely have paid that price.


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## dunamisstudio (Nov 14, 2021)

If it's too high, don't buy it. The fact they don't offer upgrades for single product to bundles has swayed my decisions too. Example: I've had Cinebrass for years now. One year about got Pro but Cinebrass bundle was released that year too. Emailed support, told no upgrade currently. About got Sonore but remembered this. If I can save some money, not buy each library individually or rebuy something I already have, I would like to. So for now, I'll stick with Synchron Brass.


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## Aitcpiano (Nov 14, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> I've said in a few posts on here that this is something we plan to address eventually. We do not have a timeline available for when this will be rolled out -- it will not happen before the end of the year. We have too many other projects in development to address this request in the immediate term.
> 
> 
> Sorry to hear this! PM me your email address, I'll see if I can find your ticket!


Thanks, i'll send over a PM but was just an email regarding what I basically mentioned here. I don't know much about ecommerce or how hard this would be to implement into you website but surely this is something that could quite easily be implemented?


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## Aitcpiano (Nov 14, 2021)

dunamisstudio said:


> If it's too high, don't buy it. The fact they don't offer upgrades for single product to bundles has swayed my decisions too. Example: I've had Cinebrass for years now. One year about got Pro but Cinebrass bundle was released that year too. Emailed support, told no upgrade currently. About got Sonore but remembered this. If I can save some money, not buy each library individually or rebuy something I already have, I would like to. So for now, I'll stick with Synchron Brass.


Exactly the same here. I was interested in getting Cineperc and now Cinestrings/woods core as I like the look of the upcoming updates but I would want to buy these as part of the Cinesymphony core bundle but as I already own Cinebrass core I don't want to have to rebuy Cinebrass core again just to get the full cinesympony bundle and i don't want to buy them all individually.


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## JDK88 (Nov 14, 2021)

I stopped being a fan of Cinesamples when they started charging for updates. I'm am not fond of that business model.


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## X-Bassist (Nov 14, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> For anyone who may have missed it, I have posted a sneak preview of the new update for CineStrings CORE. The entire sample set has gone through a very meticulous noise reduction and re-editing process and is getting a drastic scripting update, in addition to the new GUI on display in that thread.


Although I appreciate them improving their libraries, I‘m sad that this was the last cool interface that hadn’t gone generic- but now they are. Now it looks like every other interface- generic, flat, no style- looks like 8Dio and AI, so sad. And a composer and mixer, I really liked their old graphics, that they continued for so long, it was awesome.

Oh yes and now I have to re-download everything and need another big SSD to hold it. Yes I have every library.😂


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## easyrider (Nov 14, 2021)

X-Bassist said:


> Although I appreciate them improving their libraries, I‘m sad that this was the last cool interface that hadn’t gone generic- but now they are. Now it looks like every other interface- generic, flat, no style- looks like 8Dio and AI, so sad. And a composer and mixer, I really liked their old graphics, that they continued for so long, it was awesome.


The new interface blows chunks all over the old one….I’m getting free updates on all my cinesamples libraries, improved sound, improved programming and a vastly superior GUI.


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## easyrider (Nov 14, 2021)

JDK88 said:


> I stopped being a fan of Cinesamples when they started charging for updates. I'm am not fond of that business model.


All my updates incoming are free….


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 14, 2021)

Thundercat said:


> Thank you CS for posting here with the exciting news of the coming updates. Sorry for the huge backlash. I feel like the forum users have a valid point as the price hikes are really really high. But I do love your libraries.


It's a pleasure to be here, and we're taking all the feedback that happens here under advisement. We're at a stage in our transition and growth where feedback is very important, because as I keep hinting at, we have a lot more going on behind the scenes than I've even discussed here yet. There are some announcements coming soon that will put a lot of this discussion in perspective, and I'm very excited to start sharing that news as and when I can.


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 14, 2021)

clonewar said:


> I agree that if it's a paid update then the price of the library could be raised to reflect that.





JDK88 said:


> when they started charging for updates.





easyrider said:


> All my updates incoming are free….


Hey all, I know there's a lot of different info regarding the updates and upgrades that are coming -- I've discussed in a few posts here, here, and here but the short version is:

We only charge a fee for a new version of an already-owned library in the case of libraries that are re-encoded for Kontakt Player, if they were originally released without this Native Instruments encoding. We have to pay encoding fees and purchase serial codes from NI when we make a library compatible with Kontakt Player. In such cases, we charge a nominal fee to cover this additional encoding cost.

New versions of libraries that are already encoded and don't require a new NI serial code are always free for existing owners. This includes the complete overhaul of CineStrings CORE and the other CineSymphony libraries that are coming, as well as some other updates for Hollywoodwinds and other libraries.

The libraries on the near-term list for re-encoding/Native Access delivery are Drums of War 1+2, Deep Percussion Beds 1+2, and CineOrch (being renamed to Orchestral Chords). The most recent library to get this re-encoding treatment was Piano In Blue, which also got a sonic treatment for the Direct samples to help manage noise and help ensure smooth playability.


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 14, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> I don't know much about ecommerce or how hard this would be to implement into you website but surely this is something that could quite easily be implemented?


It's a lot more complex than it may seem, which is why we haven't done it thus far. In the past we offered a huge variety of Bundles of different products packaged together in ways designed to give people a deal on similar libraries they might need for a particular project (for instance, Viola da Gamba and Voices of War were bundled because they work well together for evoking the historical/fantasy/medieval style that was prominent at the time).

We recently removed several Bundles from our site as part of our preparations for implementing this contextual store, but there are still massive changes that need to be made internally in several different components of this. Suffice to say, you don't want to see this particular sausage being made.

We know this is a big deal for customers, and a frequent request. We know it must be confusing that we haven't seemed to make this a bigger priority, and I want to make it clear that it *is* a priority, among many other complex, significant and ambitious projects we have going on. I think the reason we haven't put this ahead of some of these other projects will become clear when I share some announcements soon, but rest assured, it is something we intend to address when we can.


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## David Cuny (Nov 14, 2021)

Futchibon said:


> I didn't actually do this. I asked them if they thought it constituted this; they haven't replied.


I see, you're just asking questions. I guess it was someone else who wrote the words "ethically dubious", and not you.

I'm not saying you're a troll, I'm just saying that's what a troll would write.

See? I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm just using a rhetorical device.


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 14, 2021)

Futchibon said:


> I asked them if they thought it constituted this; they haven't replied.


I'm not really sure what you want me to say. I understand that you're upset about the price increase, and that by being here I'm an easy target for your frustration. I'll refer back to an earlier post on this thread in which I make it clear that I'm not here to have an adversarial relationship with this community. I don't have any new information to add in response to your concerns beyond what I've already shared in this thread regarding the reasons behind the price increase, and taking responsibility for the poor way the lack of communication about it was handled.

My goal here in all my activity on this forum is to help customers have success in using our products, whether that means answering questions to help someone decide to purchase a library (or not), how to maximize the use of a particular feature, and to share information as I can without violating my NDA about what's coming in the future so our customers can make their plans for what they might like to purchase. I can't help you do any of that if you're determined to see me as your opposition, and while it's your prerogative to decline my help, I'm under no obligation to get into the kind of discussion you seem to want to have about this.

If you have any questions about the Tina Guo Legato library or anything else in your collection that would help you better deploy it in your compositions, I'd be more than happy to answer them for you!


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 14, 2021)

Crowe said:


> I can safely say that I want nothing to do with this 'new management' and whatever they're smoking.


This last line seems a little uncalled for, but it's valuable for us to know what kind of impressions people are getting. I haven't shared much information about the company transition and changes in leadership, because it's high-level business information that I can't really discuss here, but it seems like there's a lot of speculation and assumptions happening that are unfortunate to see. I'm very proud to be a part of this new team and working under Mike Patti's leadership, and for the company to be going forward in the new direction we have undertaken.

I know there are bad optics at play here, and this has all been a valuable learning lesson as we prepare to go forward with the huge announcements that are still yet to come. I am optimistic that once we do make these announcements, a lot of the bad taste that has been left in people's mouths will be washed away, and it will make sense why we hired 15 new people in one year and are still growing our team.

We're teasing this on our social media so I'll share here as well that this weekend, some of our crew are up at the Bastyr University Chapel where Hollywoodwinds and Voxos were recorded, doing a couple sessions for some very cool libraries we're looking forward to working on in 2022! There are more recording sessions lined up, for some really significant projects including CineStrings PRO.

We're pretty much looking at a flood of announcements over the next several weeks as various things that have been in process all year come to fruition. I know that I've said that in basically every post I've made on here since I joined the forum a month ago, and everyone's leery of the word "soon." Everything that people need to know regarding updates, new products, and other new things will be made as clear as I can, as soon as I can, as public information becomes available.


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## muziksculp (Nov 14, 2021)

@Cinesamples-SG ,

As a long time member of VI-C forum, I just want to Thank You so much for being on this forum, trying to help us out, answering question, and giving us a general perspective on what's happening with CineSamples as a company, the new team, the positive outlook, and vision for the future expansion of the company.

You are doing a fantastic job here (THANKS)  , please don't forget that many here appreciate what's going on with CineSamples, and are not fixated on a price increase, that's just part of what's needed for your company to grow, there is no magic, it was a business decision, I think when a company needs funds to grow it has to make some changes for that to happen.

I hope forum members can understand this, and appreciate the fact that CineSamples is alive, and well, and will be contributing to improve our production tools, it would have been so sad if this didn't happen.

I have full confidence in CineSamples efforts, and I'm very happy that CineSamples will be back as a major player in this industry.

Looking forward to CineStrings Core Update (Soon) 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Crowe (Nov 14, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> This last line seems a little uncalled for, but it's valuable for us to know what kind of impressions people are getting. I haven't shared much information about the company transition and changes in leadership, because it's high-level business information that I can't really discuss here, but it seems like there's a lot of speculation and assumptions happening that are unfortunate to see. I'm very proud to be a part of this new team and working under Mike Patti's leadership, and for the company to be going forward in the new direction we have undertaken.
> 
> I know there are bad optics at play here, and this has all been a valuable learning lesson as we prepare to go forward with the huge announcements that are still yet to come. I am optimistic that once we do make these announcements, a lot of the bad taste that has been left in people's mouths will be washed away, and it will make sense why we hired 15 new people in one year and are still growing our team.
> 
> ...


Look, I have no beef with you, I'm aware that you're a real person and not just a 'marketing tool' (and I really don't envy your position) but I can see you're basically being sent in to do damage control. Trying to diffuse the situation and divert our attention with 'bad optics', 'announcements' and 'big future plans' and talk about all the big things Cinesamples is doing doesn't help any, I have a degree in marketing too. What the future holds is utterly irrelevant.

None of this changes anything about the fact that suddenly raising the price on old software is bad form no matter what way you slice it and while Cinesamples is completely in their right to do so, we are completely in our right to dislike it.

Anyway, this is not a commercial thread. I'm fully allowed to question the integrity of your management and I don't think my remark was uncalled for. I expect my team and customers to question my management decisions too.

Honestly I think this is all only fanning the flames of our displeasure but YMMV.

EDIT:
The bottom line is that Cinesamples is now 'unpredictable'. This has put a lot of people on edge and no amount of marketing-speak is going to fix this. Only time is. Maybe.


----------



## Henu (Nov 14, 2021)

Crowe said:


> I have a degree in marketing too


I don't, so please let me dwell in my bubble where I try to believe positive change exists and intentions are as good and honest as they sound like!


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## cqd (Nov 14, 2021)

Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to get this thread going again..I ended up buying cinepiano anyway..


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## Futchibon (Nov 14, 2021)

Henu said:


> Besides, who the hell bases a review solely or even mostly on _price_?


Price is a huge factor in considering, buying and reviewing a library.

For instance, to paraphrase Cory's review of NEO: It's not worth it at full price, but I'd recommend it at the intro/sale price.

I'm curious as to how Cory's review of NSS would have been if he had not been based on the original price of $499, as oppossed to the new price of $299. I personally wouldn't recommend it at the original price, but think it's a good deal for $299 or on sale.

Aurora Choir...Full price of $399 or sale price of $39.99. I got it on sale and it's a good library for the price. It would be a joke for full price.


Cinesamples-SG said:


> I make it clear that I'm not here to have an adversarial relationship with this community.





Cinesamples-SG said:


> If you have any questions about the Tina Guo Legato library or anything else in your collection that would help you better deploy it in your compositions, I'd be more than happy to answer them for you!


I'd much rather not have an adversarial realtionship either, which is why it's frustrating that you haven't addressed the concern of the ratings on the BS website being a false representation as they are based on a much lower price. I've emailed BS about this, would CS be prepared to contact BS and ask them to either make a note saying reviews before a certain date were based on a much different price?


muziksculp said:


> @Cinesamples-SG ,
> 
> As a long time member of VI-C forum, I just want to Thank You so much for being on this forum, trying to help us out, answering question, and giving us a general perspective on what's happening with CineSamples as a company, the new team, the positive outlook, and vision for the future expansion of the company.


It's worth pointing out that @Cinesamples-SG is likely being paid for this, so we should also ponder whether we think this is worth the price hikes when no other sample company is doing it.


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## jbuhler (Nov 14, 2021)

I mean there was a better way to raise prices or, really more to the point, to reposition the prices. You hold a good sale saying you are going to be readjusting prices when it is done so this is a chance to get all the products at a reduced price that won’t be seen again for at least six months. Then you make sure all prices during the sale are really good and will remain having been a good deal for the next six months. But of course that’s not how this worked and one still can’t say for sure what CS pricing scheme is since the libraries seem perpetually on deep discount. 

Even so, I don’t get the hostility toward companies setting prices as they see fit. If you think the libraries are not a good deal at the price offered you don’t buy them. If they are moving few copies at the price offered then that’s their problem. So sure say you aren’t going to buy at the higher price and say you think the pricing is out of line with competing products if that’s your belief. But it doesn’t seem at all helpful to press this as a moral or ethical issue, unless they are in fact doing something shady like lowering the prices whenever the libraries are not on sale, and then raising the price when on sale so the effective discount looks better. That doesn’t seem to be the case here, and the appearance seems to have been a product of the fact that these days CS libraries are on almost perpetual sale.


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## clonewar (Nov 14, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> I think the reason we haven't put this ahead of some of these other projects will become clear when I share some announcements soon, but rest assured, it is something we intend to address when we can.


This is starting to sound like CS is going to announce a subscription plan. That could explain the huge price increase for the Complete bundle, as they might rather have customers subscribe than actually buy the package. And also why they haven’t prioritized bundle completion discounts, if they’d rather you just subscribe to their entire catalog.

Personally I’m not a fan of software subscriptions, and especially not for sample libraries. And of course I’m making a huge assumption and might be way off.


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## Robin Thompson (Nov 14, 2021)

Futchibon said:


> which is why it's frustrating that you haven't addressed the concern of the ratings on the BS website being a false representation as they are based on a much lower price. I've emailed BS about this, would CS be prepared to contact BS and ask them to either make a note saying reviews before a certain date were based on a much different price?


This is a totally unfair request. You disguise it as simple by focusing on BestService, as if all they had to do was contact one site - but how many hundreds of other reviews are out there on different retail sites and forums and youtube and so on? You can't possibly put the burden on developers to track down everyone who's ever written a review of their product before a certain date, and that's before we factor in all of the previous (and often much more dramatic) fluctuations in price from sales etc that no doubt influenced many reviews without being mentioned in them. They can't address this concern because it's just not a realistic concern.



> It's worth pointing out that @Cinesamples-SG is likely being paid for this, so we should also ponder whether we think this is worth the price hikes when no other sample company is doing it.


Of course they're being paid, so what? Are you suggesting that Cinesamples raised prices to cover the cost of dealing with VI-Control users? If so, I'm beginning to understand. Christ, there was endless bitching that they had no presence here... now we're going to bitch that they do?

I'm coming out in favor of closing this thread down. It's more than doubled in size since the last time it produced an original thought. And personally I think the health benefits of stewing in impotent anger on a public forum are overrated.


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## muziksculp (Nov 14, 2021)

Robin Thompson said:


> I'm coming out in favor of closing this thread down.


+1000


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 14, 2021)

Crowe said:


> but I can see you're basically being sent in to do damage control.





Futchibon said:


> It's worth pointing out that @Cinesamples-SG is likely being paid for this,


Nobody's ordering me to be here, especially not on a Sunday. I'm here because I want to be, and I get paid whether I do this or not. My presence here is not my only job function. I could have walked away from this thread long ago, but the concerns being expressed here are important and I want the people sharing them to know we're not simply ignoring you.



Crowe said:


> None of this changes anything about the fact that suddenly raising the price on old software is bad form no matter what way you slice it and while Cinesamples is completely in their right to do so, we are completely in our right to dislike it.


I have not disputed anyone's right to hold and express this opinion at any point in this discussion. I have stated our position, and others are welcome to state theirs. I know we'll disagree. I'm not here to change your mind -- I can't, and won't bother trying. There's a difference, however, between expressing displeasure at a decision was made, and assuming malicious intent and lack of integrity on the part of the decision makers. I'm not asking for an apology or saying your opinion and feelings are not real to you; but I wouldn't be here coming to the defense of our leadership, while I have plenty of other stuff to do today, if they were undeserving of it.



Futchibon said:


> you haven't addressed the concern of the ratings on the BS website being a false representation as they are based on a much lower price.


We're most likely not going to come to agreement on this, because the price changes are staying in effect, and this point of contention is predicated on a 3rd-party reseller's website, as well as subjective opinions about reviews. Contacting Best Service about this is your prerogative, and you have the right to your opinion. We will not be contacting them about this, and if they choose to reset the reviews on this basis, that's up to them.


Crowe said:


> The bottom line is that Cinesamples is now 'unpredictable'. This has put a lot of people on edge and no amount of marketing-speak is going to fix this. Only time is. Maybe.


This is an extremely important and valid piece of feedback, and I'm here to hear exactly this. I'm not going to argue with it, or try to over-promise solutions, or to just acknowledge it and leave you on Read. I know the price change was a jarring thing, and I think you're exactly right that it's put people on edge and feeling destabilized. I'm not here to just spout marketing-speak (FWIW, my degree is in composing for video games, so it's not my forte anyway) and make a bunch of promises that we won't be acting on for a long time. I know we've put ourselves in a less than ideal position here, and that's a big part of what's driving us to hold to the standard of quality we intend to deliver going forward. It's also why I'm committed to sharing as much information here as transparently as I can, so we can avoid creating similar experiences to this in the future.

I'd like to point out that one of the initial points that MP made when we made our return to the forum was if price is ever an issue for a purchase that someone here on VI-Control is considering, please don't hesitate to get in touch with us through the Support system and we'll see what we can do for you. I am more than happy to answer any questions here about a particular library you have your eye on that would help you make your decisions about whether or not it's right for you. 

Whatever information we can make available with regard to functionality and suitability for your projects in advance, I'm happy to share freely -- we don't want anything to be an unpleasant surprise because you had a different impression of a product going in, that could have been clarified before the point of purchase. My favorite part of my job is answering such questions, and I've said in other places that I'm not ever going to sell you something you don't need. I don't pretend our libraries are perfect or suitable for all compositions. I wouldn't have much credibility if I did. 

While I am confident in what's coming in the future, you've made it clear that you won't be satisfied by talking about that, which is totally fair. I'm still here now, and we still have about 49 products on our website currently that I'm more than happy to discuss. If anyone else has questions about what's happening now, soon, or next, don't be shy.


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## jazzman7 (Nov 14, 2021)

Here is my experience FWIW. I had previously seen Tina Guo and Taylor Davis on sale at 50% off for $49. I passed at the time but over the next month I had decided to focus on Solo Instruments. I then saw another 50% sale and headed over to pick up those two VI's. To my surprise, the prices had almost doubled and here was a 50% "Sale" right on top of this. 

Are these 2 VI's worth $79 instead? Possibly, but something about this left a bad taste. Goodbye Tina and Taylor!

Does CS have the right to raise prices? Sure. Do I also have the right to walk away and to mention it to fellow composers and hobbyists on this site? I think so. 

I'm glad a CS Rep is on the site answering questions and in all politeness, I say thanks as well.

But that doesn't mean I think it's manna from heaven, it's what smart businesspeople should do. I don't believe the answers provided so far by CS have been enough to bring me back, but I think we should keep it Civil. 

Angrily calling for this thread to be shut down is not reasonable. I admire many of the folks on both sides of this issue. I have been entertained and informed on this forum and I appreciate it.


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 14, 2021)

jazzman7 said:


> I'm glad a CS Rep is on the site answering questions and in all politeness, I say thanks as well.


Glad to be here!



jazzman7 said:


> I don't believe the answers provided so far by CS have been enough to bring me back,


Totally fair! We'll see what happens when the next wave of news comes out  


jazzman7 said:


> I admire many of the folks on both sides of this issue. I have been entertained and informed on this forum and I appreciate it.


I'll repeat that I have no problem with this thread staying up and open -- future answers to the same concerns may be met with links to earlier posts giving the same answers, because we all have better things to do than chase these issues in circles, but I'm happy to stick around and answer new questions as needed


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## muziksculp (Nov 14, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> because we all have better things to do than chase these issues in circles


One of the reasons I am for this thread to be closed.


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## easyrider (Nov 14, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> One of the reasons I am for this thread to be closed.


I agree, life is to short for meaningless discourse…the decision has been made by Cinesamples….Either soak it up or move on and don’t buy the libraries….Questioning their integrity is just keyboard warrior bloat.


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## Hendrixon (Nov 14, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> One of the reasons I am for this thread to be closed.


You do know you can un-follow this thread, right?


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## easyrider (Nov 14, 2021)

Hendrixon said:


> You do know you can un-follow this thread, right?


It’s my thread and I can do what I want with it…..one email to admin and it’s gone….😜


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## Hendrixon (Nov 14, 2021)

easyrider said:


> It’s my thread and I can do what I want with it…..one email to admin and it’s gone….😜


You're fucked.. you can't un-follow


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## easyrider (Nov 14, 2021)

I’ve added a poll to ask the vi control community.😂


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## Kony (Nov 14, 2021)

jazzman7 said:


> Are these 2 VI's worth $79 instead? Possibly, but something about this left a bad taste. Goodbye Tina and Taylor!





Cinesamples-SG said:


> if price is ever an issue for a purchase that someone here on VI-Control is considering, please don't hesitate to get in touch with us through the Support system and we'll see what we can do for you


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## easyrider (Nov 14, 2021)

I am kicking myself I didnt pick up Tina Guo and Taylor Davis though.


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 14, 2021)

Hendrixon said:


> Who ever gave them the advice that software is milk is beyond me.


You've never heard the ancient wisdom, "Knowledge is power. https://franceisbacon.com/ (France is bacon.) Software is milk." ? 

But seriously, to address your question about costs that have increased since these libraries have come out -- while it's true that the overall price of web hosting and other online services we use have gone down over the years, our own costs for using these services have in some cases gone up, because we've expanded our product catalog and have many more gigabytes' worth of content that we're paying for. Some other systems we use charge us based on number of users in the database, which is a number that has grown considerably over the years, particularly in the past couple with more and more music creator hobbyists getting involved in composing and discovering these tools.

I'm not going to say there's a direct mathematical model that ties the price of software to milk or any other good subject to inflation. I will say that we have ongoing costs that aren't necessarily taken into account in the given description of our business model.

When you purchase a library from Cinesamples, you're not just getting the content and a license to use the libraries in your compositions; you're getting ongoing support from me and my team in how to use them, as well as access to future updates and enhancements to the products. You are correct that we _could have _closed everything down and rested on these products' laurels after simply creating them and putting them up for sale. We didn't. If we had, I probably wouldn't have bothered to make this account, just to show up here and say "Yeah, we know there are problems, and we're not fixing them." The reason I'm here to talk about what we've been up to, after years of absence on this forum, is because we're in a position to make the significant improvements that we are, thanks to the new team that has come aboard in the past year.

In my opinion, admittedly biased (but not bought), you are getting a better value from a purchase of any Cinesamples product now than a year ago, because of the talent that is now taking care of your products going forward. When the next few announcements we make put me in a better position to share some of the incredible work my colleagues have been doing this year, I'll be very eager to show it off.


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## Mike Greene (Nov 14, 2021)

easyrider said:


> I’ve added a poll to ask the vi control community.😂


You do realize that adding a poll will just make the thread longer, right?


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## easyrider (Nov 14, 2021)

@Cinesamples-SG you can still sell me Taylor Davies and Tina Guo Vol 2 at the old prices….PM me…😂


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## easyrider (Nov 14, 2021)

Mike Greene said:


> You do realize that adding a poll will just make the thread longer, right?


It was just a bit of fun Mike…👍


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## Zanshin (Nov 14, 2021)

easyrider said:


> @Cinesamples-SG you can still sell me Taylor Davies and Tina Guo Vol 2 at the old prices….PM me…😂


Special pricing for apologists… can it get worse?!!?!


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## easyrider (Nov 14, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> Special pricing for apologists… can it get worse?!!?!


I haven’t apologised….I’ve done nothing wrong !


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## Bman70 (Nov 14, 2021)

Did Taylor Davis really almost double in price? I remember having my eye on it forever since it would go on sale for $49. Was it normally $99 then? Definitely not buying it now, it never struck me as something rivaling Embertone's Joshua Bell, which it does now in price. I would have scooped it up to add some more folksy tone, but there's cheap stuff to do that now like The Fiddle by Indiginus at only $69.


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## william81723 (Nov 14, 2021)

I’ve read almost all the clarification from CS.
However,because I just bought Cineperc before I realized that all prices are increased,so I’ve decided to avoid any of their old products until they give some compensation.
Rising prices without warning really breaks my trust.


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 14, 2021)

Bman70 said:


> Did Taylor Davis really almost double in price? I remember having my eye on it forever since it would go on sale for $49.


Taylor Davis, Tina Guo Acoustic Cello Legato, and Tina Guo Vol 2 have increased in price from $99 to $179, which those responsible for the decision at the time deemed to be a more accurate price point for these products.


Bman70 said:


> Embertone's Joshua Bell


That's a great library!



Bman70 said:


> I would have scooped it up to add some more folksy tone


This would likely have led to some buyer's remorse! I would not recommend using the Taylor Davis library for this application. This library is best utilized as a featured soloist in front of an epic orchestra, particularly our other CineSymphony series libraries from the Sony Scoring Stage. This is also true for Tina Guo Legato and Vol 2. Context is an important part of what makes samples do what they do best, and as Artist Series libraries, they were captured with a particular style that is representative of what the players do well, as well as what sounds good in that space. These libraries are consistent with the powerful, rich sound characteristic of the stage, and the performers have a very expressive playing style that works in tandem with this space for a strong result.


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 14, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> for a strong result.


I'll clarify that I mean sonically powerful, not just using "strong result" as a nice-sounding buzzphrase :D Strong in this context means "not delicate sounding." There's a lot of depth and prominence to these samples, and they take up a sizable amount of space in a mix. I wouldn't necessarily use these as part of a small ensemble that I'm building from multiple solo instruments. Maybe Tina Guo Vol 2 in the right context, but I'll reach for the CineStrings SOLO Cello in that case first.


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## Futchibon (Nov 14, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> +1000


-1001


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## Bman70 (Nov 15, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> This would likely have led to some buyer's remorse! I would not recommend using the Taylor Davis library for this application. This library is best utilized as a featured soloist in front of an epic orchestra, particularly our other CineSymphony series libraries from the Sony Scoring Stage. This is also true for Tina Guo Legato and Vol 2. Context is an important part of what makes samples do what they do best, and as Artist Series libraries, they were captured with a particular style that is representative of what the players do well, as well as what sounds good in that space. These libraries are consistent with the powerful, rich sound characteristic of the stage, and the performers have a very expressive playing style that works in tandem with this space for a strong result.



I'm a violin / fiddle player for the last 40 years Lol, and Taylor Davis has a nice rosin-y somewhat less refined "classical" tone than Joshua Bell. I could see using it for a Celtic-flavored war melody, while Joshua Bell wouldn't suit that at all. Also the scripting for JB is sublime and almost supernatural for playability, I doubt any VI on the market compares. Now if there's a demo, I'll try out Taylor Davis and give it a chance to convince me.


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 15, 2021)

Bman70 said:


> Taylor Davis has a nice rosin-y somewhat less refined "classical" tone than Joshua Bell. I could see using it for a Celtic-flavored war melody, while Joshua Bell wouldn't suit that at all


This is absolutely true! I think I misinterpreted what you meant by "folksy" and was thinking more small/intimate sounding fiddle that you might hear alongside a mandolin/banjo/acoustic guitar in more of a songwriting situation, rather than scoring (I wouldn't ever use Joshua Bell for that either). Taylor Davis is absolutely at home in that world/historical/cinematic "war" context you describe. The Sony room captures that scratchy grit and rich warmth at the same time really well.



Bman70 said:


> Now if there's a demo, I'll try out Taylor Davis and give it a chance to convince me.


Demos are not something we're able to offer at this time, but we are in the process of making a whole bunch of new informational content about our products, to try and present as much detail as we can about the strengths and intended functionalities of our libraries before the point of purchase. I know ultimately it's hard to know how something will fit into your workflow without being able to try it, and believe me, there are a lot of strong feelings about this issue on our team -- we're all music makers too! Short of that, I'm always happy to answer any questions you may have that would help you decide.


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## KarlHeinz (Nov 15, 2021)

As you are asking for opinions it seems (have not read evrything) I am glad to share mine.

I got Voices of war - Men of the north for a half prize sale of the OLD prize and I am very happy with it. Just a great sounding easy to use vocal library, a real advertisement for Cinesamples.

Since then I ever had a look on Voxos but even the half prize sale of th OLD prize sale was simply too much (for me). Now I looked (while being put on it in another thread) on it again on SALE: 

I wonder if you ever have a look around ONLY in here in VI was ONLY has coming up this November so far on other libraries ?

Sorry, but the new prize for Voxos compared to something like the Etheras or Omen or....... is simply ridiculous for me.

Cinesamples: closed.


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## Digivolt (Nov 15, 2021)

Is it just the Tina & Taylor libs that have increased or did they all get an increase ? I get inflation causes things to rise in price, but 80% increase ? That's just a horrible pricing strategy


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## KarlHeinz (Nov 15, 2021)

Digivolt said:


> Is it just the Tina & Taylor libs that have increased or did they all get an increase ? I get inflation causes things to rise in price, but 80% increase ? That's just a horrible pricing strategy


Voxos definitely has increased (I have a look on it for years now), Voices of war too and I think most of the stuff. And in a way nearly following a sheme: doubling the prize and then making a 50 % of sale......


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## MelodicAdagio (Nov 15, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> I've been meaning to gather some intel on people's feelings on the current trend of huge sales on sample libraries. Do you find yourself waiting for big sales so you can take advantage of them when they happen, or does it lower the perceived value of the products in your mind for there to be significant discounts on things all the time?


When things are constantly on sale, for me the sale price becomes the actual value of the product, which cheapens it in some sense, and not only cost-wise. On the other hand, a once a year or occasional sale comes off differently in the perceptions department, at least to me.

That said, I tend to wait for sales on libraries unless it's an inexpensive product--say, something less than $200--that I really want or need now. I have to budget and not get carried away, since we all know how easy it is to spend a fortune on sample libraries.

There's a certain price point where I just won't purchase a library at all unless it's dramatically discounted. For example, Strezov's Afflatus at around $900 is simply more than I'm willing to spend, no matter how great the library. I'm not saying it's not worth the asking price (that's up to the company and what the market will bear), but it's simply too much for me. At 50% off, however, I would pick it up.


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## cqd (Nov 15, 2021)

KarlHeinz said:


> Voxos definitely has increased (I have a look on it for years now), Voices of war too and I think most of the stuff. And in a way nearly following a sheme: doubling the prize and then making a 50 % of sale......


Yeah, I must say I saw that one too, and it just put it off the table pretty much..I'd have bought it at some point for the old sale price..


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 15, 2021)

KarlHeinz said:


> As you are asking for opinions it seems


We are indeed!


KarlHeinz said:


> (have not read evrything)


I would recommend this, -- I know it's a long thread, but I have addressed some of the concerns you present in earlier posts 


KarlHeinz said:


> I am very happy with it. Just a great sounding easy to use vocal library


Very glad to hear you're enjoying Voices of War!


KarlHeinz said:


> Voxos compared to something like the Etheras


It's good to know that this is something customers are thinking about, however I'm not sure there's a direct comparison to be made here -- Ethera is a great product line, and the whole collection of multiple different products is less than Voxos normally, both before and after our price change. Voxos was previously $499 USD full retail, and is now $599 after the adjustment. I would suggest that Ethera isn't necessarily trying to compete against Voxos, as they are significantly different products. I wouldn't recommend Voxos as an alternative to Ethera, if someone needed what that library does well, and I would strongly encourage people to use both together as appropriate for their respective sounds.


KarlHeinz said:


> Voxos definitely has increased (I have a look on it for years now), Voices of war too and I think most of the stuff.





Digivolt said:


> Is it just the Tina & Taylor libs that have increased or did they all get an increase ?


Several libraries increased by various amounts, and others decreased. Voxos went from $499 to $599, and Voices of War from $199 to $229. Soundscapes dropped from $199 to $149. Several products stayed the same price, including ones that are getting re-encoded for Kontakt Player (Drums of War 1+2, Deep Percussion Beds 1+2, CineOrch).

The price adjustment was based among other factors on the determination that certain products were underpriced, including the Artist Series solo string libraries. I'll reiterate that if anyone here on VI-Control is considering a purchase and there's an issue of price, please get in touch with us via the Support system and we'll see what kind of a deal we can work out for you


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## Futchibon (Nov 15, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> Contacting Best Service about this is your prerogative, and you have the right to your opinion. We will not be contacting them about this, and if they choose to reset the reviews on this basis, that's up to them.


Dissapointing, but not unexpected.


KarlHeinz said:


> Sorry, but the new prize for Voxos compared to something like the Etheras or Omen or....... is simply ridiculous for me.
> 
> Cinesamples: closed.


^


Digivolt said:


> Is it just the Tina & Taylor libs that have increased or did they all get an increase ? I get inflation causes things to rise in price, but 80% increase ? That's just a horrible pricing strategy


Most of them


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## Bman70 (Nov 15, 2021)

OK not to beat a dead horse, but are there updates planned for Taylor Davis? To almost double in price you would expect something significant. I don't remember seeing anything in the thread about it, but admittedly I was scanning through it fast.


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 15, 2021)

Bman70 said:


> are there updates planned for Taylor Davis?





Bman70 said:


> I don't remember seeing anything in the thread about it,


This library is not on the short-term list for updates, meaning not before the incoming CineStrings CORE 2.0 and Kontakt Player/NKS re-encoding version changes that have been announced thus far.



Bman70 said:


> To almost double in price you would expect something significant.


I totally feel where you're coming from on this. One thing I'll share, for what it's worth, is this is not a library for which we get frequent update requests. It does what it does very well, and customers tend to be happy with the way they're able to use it. This was one of the factors that led to the pricing adjustment; we saw a greater value in this product than was represented at its former $99 MSRP, particularly during a time in which we were frequently running large discounts.

I've indicated that we're going to be dialing back how often and how steeply we run discounts, because another reason behind the pricing adjustment is because we do believe in the value of our libraries as premium products. (The irony of saying this while we're running a 50% off sale all month on many products and bundles is not lost on me.)

That said, we don't want to appeal only to the premium market, and are working on a variety of new products at competitive price points.


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## KarlHeinz (Nov 15, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> We are indeed!
> 
> I would recommend this, -- I know it's a long thread, but I have addressed some of the concerns you present in earlier posts
> 
> ...


Thanks for the in detail clarification and your point of view.


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## Hendrixon (Nov 16, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> You've never heard the ancient wisdom, "Knowledge is power. https://franceisbacon.com/ (France is bacon.) Software is milk." ?


Nope, but I've heard "Knowledge is power, https://franceisbacon.com/ (Francis bacon.) So where is milk."

As for the rest? ahh I'll leave it at that, no point burdening you as you are not the honcho that needed to answer "the people". you seem like a nice guy who was sadly thrown to the front as shield.

I'm writing in this forum from early 2020 but been lurking here for like 7 years now?
Cinesamples for me were always "Mike & Mike & Tim", now its "_decision was made by the executives_" and "_our Marketing department_" and "_price adjustments_"...... That's corporate lingo, not musicians.
A friendly advice, never use the word Leverage in your company statements, in my experience many companies that started using this word were a year or two away from going belly up 

I have the whole brass bundle, love it, but won't be recommending it anymore because I can't support what you (Cinesamples) did.

And since you seem to like sentences, here is one from you're boss's twitter:
_Judge by results, not words. Random simple thought today._

And I'll add one from my neck of the woods which translate to:
"_Words like sand and there's nothing to eat_" ... sort of anyway lol


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## moon (Nov 16, 2021)

So… Keyboard in Blue update when?


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 16, 2021)

moon said:


> So… Keyboard in Blue update when?


This one is not on the near-term update list -- Piano In Blue went through a big re-encoding upgrade recently, but this product is not currently slated for an update.


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## moon (Nov 16, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> This one is not on the near-term update list -- Piano In Blue went through a big re-encoding upgrade recently, but this product is not currently slated for an update.


It was worth a shot . I picked up the Piano/Keyboard in Blue bundle a while back and was just wondering if it would get the same treatment.


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## Digivolt (Nov 17, 2021)

Cinesamples-SG said:


> The price adjustment was based among other factors on the determination that certain products were underpriced, including the Artist Series solo string libraries. I'll reiterate that if anyone here on VI-Control is considering a purchase and there's an issue of price, please get in touch with us via the Support system and we'll see what kind of a deal we can work out for you


That's fair enough, new website compared to old one looks amazing by the way


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## reids (Nov 27, 2021)

So what's actually 60% off in the Cinesamples "Black Friday" sale right now? It's just the Continuum Guitars which already had a drastic price cut as so few people are actually using it. Putting the "up to 60% off on the front page when many things are still at the 50% off of the "hiked prices" is a bit tacky when almost everyone else has real amazing sales going on right now. Strange promotion and considering the promotion is advertised for Black Friday to Cyber Monday only.


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## BrekQuest (Nov 28, 2021)

reids said:


> So what's actually 60% off in the Cinesamples "Black Friday" sale right now? It's just the Continuum Guitars which already had a drastic price cut as so few people are actually using it. Putting the "up to 60% off on the front page when many things are still at the 50% off of the "hiked prices" is a bit tacky when almost everyone else has real amazing sales going on right now. Strange promotion and considering the promotion is advertised for Black Friday to Cyber Monday only.


I think Drums of War 1 & 2 are at 60% off as well


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## Cinesamples-SG (Nov 28, 2021)

reids said:


> So what's actually 60% off in the Cinesamples "Black Friday" sale right now?


Hey @reids! There were a few bundles held in reserve for Black Friday/Cyber Monday that were not discounted earlier in the month, such as CineBrass + Cinewinds Complete, CineStrings CORE + CineBrass CORE, and a few other combinations. 

We chose not to do an additional discount on items that were already on sale this month, in part because of discussion in this thread where people expressed discomfort with seeing a better price shortly after they placed an order. We'll always take care of folks who find themselves in this situation, and to keep things simple we decided to hold the 50% off for anything already on sale this month.

Piano In Blue, Drums of War 1+2, Continuum Guitars, and several other libraries are on sale for 60% off as well. If you have your eye on something that 's not on sale, ping us at [email protected] and we'll see what we can do for you! Be advised that it is a busy weekend for us so our response times are a bit longer than normal, but rest assured we'll get to you  

If anyone has questions about something they're looking to pick up, feel free to tag me or send a PM!


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