# Mouse vs. Trackpad (and keyboard) questions



## hibhardwaj (Jan 11, 2019)

What do you guys prefer- a mouse or a trackpad. I am on a 2015 Macbook Pro and adding a Mac Mini for which I want to decide between a magic mouse vs. a trackpad. Also I use Logic Pro X as my primary DAW. 

A subsequent question, any advantages of buying a keyboard with numeric keys on it vs. a regular keyboard. 

Small decisions, but I think can make major impact on the workflow. 

Thanks in advance for your time!


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## jtnyc (Jan 11, 2019)

I use a numeric keyboard. In Logic the numbers are assigned to selecting screensets. The up/down/left/right buttons scroll through your tracks in the main and mixer windows. I also use it in other applications like a calculator or any time I need to enter numbers.

I never got along with a track pad and the rare occasions I've been on a laptop it felt very awkward to get around. That said, I haven't put in much time using one, so I suppose one gets accustom to it. I dislike Apple mice. They feel small in my hand and limited as far as extra functionality goes. I use a Logitech Performance MX. I love it. I think they discontinued it and replaced it with the MX Master 2S. There are a bunch of good Logitech mice to choose from. It just depends on the size and fit you like and how many programable buttons you require. I like having those extra buttons and use them to zoom in and out, scroll left and right, start and stop Logic, open new finder windows, close windows etc. They are fully programable and you can have them do different things for different applications.


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## jbuhler (Jan 11, 2019)

hibhardwaj said:


> Mac Mini for which I want to decide between a magic mouse vs. a trackpad.


I like the Magic Mouse better than the autonomous trackpad. Except if you get the wireless version you need a wired mouse spare for when the wireless needs recharging.


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## d.healey (Jan 11, 2019)

I use a track ball


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## Fab (Jan 11, 2019)

Specifically for apple

Larger keyboards with numeric keys might give you more shortcuts (with Cubase it allows easy access to switch editing tools) which save time.

Trackpads aren't as precise, but I have a feeling they are better for the health of your hands long term. Personally I don't think the magic mouse is comfortable.


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## Walra48 (Jan 11, 2019)

I've used this for the past 8 years. Fabulous. Will never go back to mouse or trackpad.
https://www.kensington.com/p/products/control/trackballs/expert-mouse-wired-trackball/


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## bryla (Jan 11, 2019)

The problem with sequencers and notation applications and any application that has lots of horizontal scrolling (not general office work) is that mice put a lot of left-right strain on the wrist and trackpads on the fingers. At least that's what I found after a couple of years pain.

That's why I now have the Logitech MX Ergo. The hand is in one position and can be tilted and the trackball is for the most versatile joint: the thumb.

Have never had a problem since.


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## Alex Fraser (Jan 12, 2019)

Can’t help you much,OP. I failed to make the choice and now use both.


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## babylonwaves (Jan 12, 2019)

the mighty trackpad 2 has a good size, i'd not go back to using a mouse.


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## IFM (Jan 12, 2019)

I’m a big fan of the Magic Mouse as it’s the best of both for me. I also always use a full keyboard on the DAW.


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## Paul Grymaud (Jan 12, 2019)

No no no. *Mouse is the future* ! I don't care about pads, keyboards, or whatsoever


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## MartinH. (Jan 12, 2019)

bryla said:


> the trackball is for the most versatile joint: the thumb.



According to my doctor the thumb joint is absolutely not intended and equipped for all the stuff we do with it in our modern world. It's the joint where I get get pain in first when I put too much strain on my hands, and I don't even use trackballs or smartphones. 


Based on anecdotal experience from RSI sufferers, the most ergonomic and pain free method of input is not one, but all of them. Switch it up every hour or so. Wacom tablets are also an option. Nowadays they might have a touchpad mode too, I'm not sure. They are such high built quality, that I'm still using the Wacom Intuos 3 that I bought *over 10 years ago*. And I frequently used it too.
Don't know about their newer models but I assume they are good too.


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## ptram (Jan 12, 2019)

I've switched to trackpads years ago. I use a keyboard without numeric keypad to move the trackpad to a more comfortable position. An embedded numeric keypad is simulated, in the Mac, with programming in Karabiner Klements.

With keypads, it is very important to lay your hand as often as possible, to avoid fingers being continually in tension.

Paolo


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## hibhardwaj (Jan 12, 2019)

Thanks for the reply guys! Really appreciate your inputs. Based on the discussion and the points put forward, I have decided to go with an ergonomically well designed mouse and a keyboard with numeric keys on it. 

Best,
~Himanshu


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## Pictus (Jan 17, 2019)




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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 17, 2019)

I'm late, and it's a matter of preference, but I use a Magic Mouse for mousing and a Magic Trackpad for gestures. They're both very well designed ergonomically. Then I have a Belkin 10-key that I bring over when I need to enter a lot of numbers, like during tax time.

BetterTouchTool is the shazzle - it lets you program all kinds of things to gestures on both of them.

The current Apple keyboard with the 10-key is very good (after one that wasn't as good as the perfect one before it).


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## IFM (May 5, 2020)

I know this is an old thread, but since I did reply to it once...

I've been an avid lover of the Magic Mouse because it combined a nice mouse and touchpad. However, I had a slim blade on one of my other machines and started using it. How quickly I've become accustomed to it and now have ordered a 2nd one along with a magic touchpad. 

This came about during a live broadcast this weekend where my mouse kept sliding down onto the keyboard. I have an S88mkII and I have a thin mouse pad on it. Another thing is the magic mouse will occasionally hiccup as it is very susceptible to dust. 

I do miss the smoother scrolling of the magic mouse though, this I figure for the times I need the hand gestures I can use a touchpad and see how that goes.


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## NathanTiemeyer (May 5, 2020)

I've used the magic trackpad 2 for years now and couldn't imagine working with anything else!


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## Nate Johnson (May 5, 2020)

I love the trackpad and keyboard ergonomics of my MacBook pro. It took a while to shake the mouse in favor of the trackpad, but now I couldn’t operate as easily without it. If I finally bite the bullet and get a more powerful computer (desktop) I will recreate that configuration, putting a Magic Pad 2 and keyboard in a custom made frame.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 5, 2020)

You are going to get as many opinions as there are people responding to this question.

I personally really like the Magic Mouse in conjunction with BetterTouchTool, and I have a Magic Trackpad that I use for gestures (also with BTT) but not for pointing and clicking.

Lots of people love trackballs, but they slow me down. It's not that I *can't* use them, it's that I don't like them.

As to the 10-key, it's useful with Logic, especially if you know it by touch, because you can locate and control the transport with it (in addition to selecting screensets + whatever other commands you have assigned to it). I have a stand-alone Belkin one that I move over to use with Logic - stand-alone because they didn't make a Bluetooth keyboard with a 10-key until a couple of years ago, and because the Magic Trackpad + 10-key is too much.

It would be a tough choice if I had to choose between the Magic Trackpad and a 10-key.


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## IFM (Jun 24, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> You are going to get as many opinions as there are people responding to this question.
> 
> I personally really like the Magic Mouse in conjunction with BetterTouchTool, and I have a Magic Trackpad that I use for gestures (also with BTT) but not for pointing and clicking.
> 
> ...



I know this reply was from May but since then I've tried twice to work with the SlimBlad and each time my upper right arm and shoulder have constant pain. So between that and just still preferring the combo pointer/touch of the magic mouse I'm sticking to that.


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## el-bo (Jun 24, 2020)

Wacom Tablet and Apple Magic Trackpad.


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## hdsmile (Jun 24, 2020)

+100 Magic Mouse


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## IFM (Jun 24, 2020)

el-bo said:


> Wacom Tablet and Apple Magic Trackpad.


You probably use the pad for drawing automation? I have an X/Y OSC set up for that myself but that's an interesting idea.


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## el-bo (Jun 24, 2020)

IFM said:


> You probably use the pad for drawing automation? I have an X/Y OSC set up for that myself but that's an interesting idea.



I split tasks between them. 

The trackpad is excellent for all the gestures. It's also great for immediacy because with the Wacom one always has to pick up the pen before performing any action, which can be a pain e.g switching presets while playing keys. But for everything else I use the Wacom. It's a lifesaver, for me


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## jononotbono (Jun 24, 2020)

I’m using a Kensington Slimblade Trackball. But I’d much rather control Cubase with my mind.


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## marius_dm (Jun 24, 2020)

I wonder who started this trend in the music recording/composer circles to use a trackball. I work in software development an I’ve never seen anyone using a trackball. 
It’s on track to become the new lava lamp lol.


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## el-bo (Jun 24, 2020)

marius_dm said:


> I wonder who started this trend in the music recording/composer circles to use a trackball. I work in software development an I’ve never seen anyone using a trackball.
> It’s on track to become the new lava lamp lol.



Lava lamps are nothing but a pretty distraction. Trackballs are much better, ergonomically-speaking than mice, which make them useful for mouse intensive applications e.g DAW. Before i got my first Wacom, I used the Kensington Expert. Bit of a beast, but pretty nimble.


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## IFM (Jun 24, 2020)

el-bo said:


> Lava lamps are nothing but a pretty distraction. Trackballs are much better, ergonomically-speaking than mice, which make them useful for mouse intensive applications e.g DAW. Before i got my first Wacom, I used the Kensington Expert. Bit of a beast, but pretty nimble.


That has not been my experience as noted above. I did have an expert mouse years ago and never liked it. I wanted the Slim Blade to work out but alas nope.


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## el-bo (Jun 24, 2020)

IFM said:


> That has not been my experience as noted above. I did have an expert mouse years ago and never liked it. I wanted the Slim Blade to work out but alas nope.



How were the ergonomics of the rest of your set-up? And how long did you give it?


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## IFM (Jun 24, 2020)

el-bo said:


> How were the ergonomics of the rest of your set-up? And how long did you give it?


I explained it all in the previous posts but to surmise same as the mouse...only difference is the angle of the trackball. Massive pain. Tried for a week the 1st time.


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## el-bo (Jun 24, 2020)

IFM said:


> I explained it all in the previous posts but to surmise same as the mouse...only difference is the angle of the trackball. Massive pain. Tried for a week the 1st time.



The angle of the trackball causes slightly more dorsiflexion of the wrist. It's not a huge difference, but over hours of use these tiny things add up to make a lot of difference. 

I don't remember how long it took me as it was a long time ago. But I ended up gifting it to some people I was living/working with, as they'd become very attached to using it  

But once I tried the Wacom there was no turning back.


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## RoyBatty (Jun 24, 2020)

Walra48 said:


> I've used this for the past 8 years. Fabulous. Will never go back to mouse or trackpad.
> https://www.kensington.com/p/products/control/trackballs/expert-mouse-wired-trackball/



I agree. I only use large trackballs and use my fingers not my thumb. I hate standard mice.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 24, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> I’m using a Kensington Slimblade Trackball. But I’d much rather control Cubase with my mind.



He looks like a coronavirus!


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## el-bo (Jun 25, 2020)

IFM said:


> I explained it all in the previous posts but to surmise same as the mouse...only difference is the angle of the trackball. Massive pain. Tried for a week the 1st time.



Have you ever considered trying a Wacom?


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## MartinH. (Jun 25, 2020)

el-bo said:


> Trackballs are much better, ergonomically-speaking than mice, which make them useful for mouse intensive applications e.g DAW. Before i got my first Wacom, I used the Kensington Expert. Bit of a beast, but pretty nimble.



Why are trackballs supposedly better, and how does it fit in with "Smartphone thumb" being a common enough strain injury that there's a name for it? I'd have thought on average trackballs are worse unless you have a wrist injury or other preexisting condition.




el-bo said:


> Have you ever considered trying a Wacom?



Definitely worth a try! In my experience it is somewhat contextual whether a Wacom is more ergonomic or not. In general I wholeheartedly support them and have used them for decades. Especially for more casual tasks like browsing the web or even gaming I think they can be a great help (not to mention drawing, but that's obvious). But for tasks that require pixel-perfect clicking or mouse movements I find a mouse easier to use.

To any wacom user that has had issues with a sweaty hand sticking too much to the tablet, I recommend getting one of those drawing gloves that only cover the two fingers in contact with the drawing surface. They make the hand slide over the tablet smoothly and can be a big help.


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## DS_Joost (Jun 25, 2020)

d.healey said:


> I use a track ball



This.

Kensington Slimblade for the win!

As for the angle, I use a mousepad with a wristpad for that.


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## IFM (Jun 25, 2020)

el-bo said:


> Have you ever considered trying a Wacom?


I would never have the space for that in the studio. The MM sits right on the keyboard. I added an aluminum mousepad for depth. The only other location is over the keyboard which requires some reach. The Slimblade fit in that spot perfectly, so "technically" I could use it there and the angle is different but now that introduces a different ergonomic issue.


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## Wunderhorn (Jun 25, 2020)

I have tried a large number of input devices... The best mouse IMO is Logitech MX Master 3. The best thing about it is not just the added scroll wheel to go sideways, but much more important the free-spinnung main scroll wheel which runs so well that you are literally flying through everything you are scrolling through. I would not want to go back to anything else. I just wish they offered a regular edition with a cable instead of wireless.


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## RoyBatty (Jun 25, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Why are trackballs supposedly better, and how does it fit in with "Smartphone thumb" being a common enough strain injury that there's a name for it? I'd have thought on average trackballs are worse unless you have a wrist injury or other preexisting




I use a larger trackball and use some or all of three fingers to navigate it. The Turbo Mouse lets me keep my hand in a mostly open position on top. I don't like thumb based track balls, the few times I tried them my thumb would start twitching.


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## sostenuto (Jun 25, 2020)

(2) Logitech Trackballs and (1) Slimblade _ on (3) Desktop Win10 Pro PC(s). Enjoy all, yet Slimblade is daily fav.
Also use Wacom Intuos tablet, but not yet choice versus Trackballs. (2) Logitech G-400 Wired Gaming Mice always connected, for extensive scrolling needs.


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## el-bo (Jun 25, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Why are trackballs supposedly better, and how does it fit in with "Smartphone thumb" being a common enough strain injury that there's a name for it? I'd have thought on average trackballs are worse unless you have a wrist injury or other preexisting condition.



The trackball controllers I was referring to were not the ones with the small thumb-ball, which i think are really bad for thumbs. I am thinking about models like the Kensington Expert. These do require the thumb to press fro clicking. However, when the hand is flat, covering the ball, the thumb is already at-rest in the position to click the button.

These trackballs don't need to be gripped and constantly moved a mouse. Moreover, it soon becomes second-nature to make large movements with a flick-and-grab (on the ball) gesture. Like a decent trackpad, a decent trackball requires very small amounts of movement to complete a lot of tasks.

Where trackballs lose to the Wacom is in the need for constant pronation of the wrist/forearm.

And yes! I came to trying trackballs, upright mice and Wacom tablets after having both of my wrists operated on, for Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. I can't use mice for more than a couple of minutes. Trackballs and trackpads are an improvement. However, Wacom tablets (I've been using them for about 13 years, and have recently bought my 3rd model) are the controllers that offer me the best relief.






MartinH. said:


> Definitely worth a try! In my experience it is somewhat contextual whether a Wacom is more ergonomic or not. In general I wholeheartedly support them and have used them for decades. Especially for more casual tasks like browsing the web or even gaming I think they can be a great help (not to mention drawing, but that's obvious). But for tasks that require pixel-perfect clicking or mouse movements I find a mouse easier to use.
> 
> To any wacom user that has had issues with a sweaty hand sticking too much to the tablet, I recommend getting one of those drawing gloves that only cover the two fingers in contact with the drawing surface. They make the hand slide over the tablet smoothly and can be a big help.



The Wacom pens can be more ergonomic, depending on how you write. Holding the pen in a manner that involves the least pronation of the wrist/forearm will result in much less stress, over the short and longer term.

I don't use mine for art or design, though I will be starting to learn to. For more pixel accuracy in the piano roll, editing etc. I tend to use pinch-to-zoom on the trackpad (I use my left hand to zoom with my right on the Wacom). Alternatively I use a combination of keyboard modifier and trackpad (double finger scroll) to zoom the entire screen. Of course, this is a Mac thing. Not sure whether there are Windows equivalents.


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## el-bo (Jun 25, 2020)

IFM said:


> I would never have the space for that in the studio. The MM sits right on the keyboard. I added an aluminum mousepad for depth. The only other location is over the keyboard which requires some reach. The Slimblade fit in that spot perfectly, so "technically" I could use it there and the angle is different but now that introduces a different ergonomic issue.



Without seeing the setup, I couldn't be completely sure. However, that positioning would normally be a red-flag. It just depends how much you have to reach out. Perhaps that added to the fact that you had to accustom yourself to all the new muscle movements is what caused all that extra pain.

I remember when I first changed to a floor-seated desk I gave up due to that shoulder and neck pain (Just assumed it was a sign of really bad ergonomics). The second time, a few years later, I stuck it out. I've had no issues now for the lat 2.5 years


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## MartinH. (Jun 25, 2020)

el-bo said:


> The trackball controllers I was referring to were not the ones with the small thumb-ball, which i think are really bad for thumbs. I am thinking about models like the Kensington Expert. These do require the thumb to press fro clicking. However, when the hand is flat, covering the ball, the thumb is already at-rest in the position to click the button.



Ah, I was thinking of the small thumb-trackball ones. I haven't used one of the big trackballs yet, but I could imagine those to be more comfortable. Especially compared to a heavy mouse on a too small mousepad so that it requires frequent lifting the mouse. 

When I use a mouse, a lot of movement is coming from the fingers instead of the wrist. I do get pain in my lower arm, but so far I can still keep it in check with frequent and long stretching.



el-bo said:


> And yes! I came to trying trackballs, upright mice and Wacom tablets after having both of my wrists operated on, for Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. I can't use mice for more than a couple of minutes. Trackballs and trackpads are an improvement.



Sorry to hear that! Have you tried stretches similar to this? 







You'd need to hold the position about 90 seconds for each thumb to get a good effect (good rule of thumb for all stretches in general from what I've seen). It has pretty much fixed some thumb joint pain that I used to get from using gamepads. 


When you use the trackball, is a click with the thumb pressing the side of the thumb down on the button? I'd have thought that's a kind of motion that is bad for carpal tunnel issues.


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## IFM (Jun 25, 2020)

el-bo said:


> Without seeing the setup, I couldn't be completely sure. However, that positioning would normally be a red-flag. It just depends how much you have to reach out. Perhaps that added to the fact that you had to accustom yourself to all the new muscle movements is what caused all that extra pain.
> 
> I remember when I first changed to a floor-seated desk I gave up due to that shoulder and neck pain (Just assumed it was a sign of really bad ergonomics). The second time, a few years later, I stuck it out. I've had no issues now for the lat 2.5 years


The studio is not the issue actually. It’s the business mac which has a normal keyboard and mouse tray. Using the MM my wrist is in line with the arm. As soon as I switch to the trackball the angle causes arm pain. In the studio the mouse is also aligned but the trackball position is higher so it doesn’t kink.


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## IFM (Jun 26, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> When you use the trackball, is a click with the thumb pressing the side of the thumb down on the button? I'd have thought that's a kind of motion that is bad for carpal tunnel issues.


Before my upper arm and shoulder reacted to the trackball it was two days of thumb pain because that became the left-clicker. With years on the MM I've never had any RSI issues. Lucky there I guess.


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## MartinH. (Jun 26, 2020)

IFM said:


> Before my upper arm and shoulder reacted to the trackball it was two days of thumb pain because that became the left-clicker. With years on the MM I've never had any RSI issues. Lucky there I guess.



I've been having RSI type issues on and off for about 2 decades, so I've read a lot of anecdotal reports, trying to figure out what helps. I remember someone saying after long time of right hand mouse-use they developed RSI or tendonitis, then switched to left-hand mouse use, worked a full day, and got tendonitis in the left arm after just one day of mouse use. Computer work is a ridiculous strain on the body, and while there is a degree of wearing it down through longterm strain, there is also a degree of building up resilience against short term strain through longterm training. So it's hard to tell apart which pain is caused by an unergonomic setup, and which is caused by a too quick change in the range of movements. Ideally you'd transition slowly into all kinds of workplace ergonomic changes, to rule out pain coming from just short term overload, like you'd get terribly sore muscles from your first time working out, even though you didn't do anything "wrong" working out. 

Transitioning from an armrest chair to a no-armrest chair was at first quite uncomfortable for me, but it completely fixed issues I had from the armrests pressing on the ulnar nerve, so it was worth it.


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## IFM (Jun 26, 2020)

I'm always up for most testing and since my Slimblade is sitting right here I've got it connected and am now trying some alternate hand positions. I do like to size of the roller. USB Overdrive helps too.


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## el-bo (Jun 29, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Ah, I was thinking of the small thumb-trackball ones. I haven't used one of the big trackballs yet, but I could imagine those to be more comfortable. Especially compared to a heavy mouse on a too small mousepad so that it requires frequent lifting the mouse.
> 
> When I use a mouse, a lot of movement is coming from the fingers instead of the wrist. I do get pain in my lower arm, but so far I can still keep it in check with frequent and long stretching.



I've not used a smaller, thumb-operated trackball as it just looks like such a potential hazard. The large ones seem to definitely remove some of the issues of standard mouse use.

And stretching (Well, breaks in general) are very important.





MartinH. said:


> Sorry to hear that! Have you tried stretches similar to this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks! I do often stretch. Although, it's one of those things that can often slide away. So thanks for the timely reminder.

And actually my thumb is where I tend to have the least problems. It's all the rest of the fingers that need their own workout. I use a variety of stretches/manipulations for this




MartinH. said:


> When you use the trackball, is a click with the thumb pressing the side of the thumb down on the button? I'd have thought that's a kind of motion that is bad for carpal tunnel issues.



It's all bad, really. All I know is that I got the trackball a couple of years after the operations, and it provided huge relief. Perhaps I didn't use it long enough before moving on for it to reveal any issues. All I know is that a mouse was a no-go.

I no longer get symptoms that I would identify as related to carpal tunnel, despite still getting pinches in that area from over/bad usage. However, I do sometimes get trigger-finger, and have had arthritis issues (Now, about 90% cleared). But it's general fatigue, nerve pinching etc. that keep me with the Wacom, as it doesn't take long with the Magic Trackpad before I'm in pain :(


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## el-bo (Jun 29, 2020)

Simeon said:


> This is something I dealt with for a while. Here is a little bit about my journey, which ended in using a Verticle Mouse.
> 
> MY RSI Journey | Dealing with Repetitive Stress Injuries





I did try a vertical mouse at one point. It certainly was nowhere near as elegant as the one you have. However, while it was better than a standard mouse, it still didn't remove all the stresses of having to grip the thing while moving the arm. Hd I not already had the Wacom, I might have stuck with it, but alas...

P.S There is a lt of goo to be had from standing desks. However, the way you have ours set up is an ergonomic nightmare, which could leave you with more issue than it solves :(


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## el-bo (Jun 29, 2020)

IFM said:


> I'm always up for most testing and since my Slimblade is sitting right here I've got it connected and am now trying some alternate hand positions. I do like to size of the roller. USB Overdrive helps too.



Let us know how it goes


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## MartinH. (Jun 29, 2020)

el-bo said:


> Thanks! I do often stretch. Although, it's one of those things that can often slide away. So thanks for the timely reminder.
> 
> And actually my thumb is where I tend to have the least problems. It's all the rest of the fingers that need their own workout. I use a variety of stretches/manipulations for this



I'm not a doctor but if I remember correctly I've read that carpal tunnel syndrome (causing pain or numbness in the fingers) can be caused by over excercising the big muscle at the base of the thumb. The point of the specific thumb stretching excercise that I'd recommend to try is to reverse the shortening of the muscle fascia to decrease the pressure on the carpal tunnel. 

The nerve/pain relationsships are quite unintuitive. If I sit/lie incorrectly for too long, it suddenly feels like someone jabs a needly in my finger. The cause for that is the posture of my neck, not remotely related to the finger. It's just the nerve that gets affected by the issue is the one connected to the finger. Carpal tunnel is simmilar afaik, but cause and effect are closer together: wrist and fingers. 

I'd imagine that sideways thumb-click to be a risk for causing carpal tunnel, so I'd try to do some stretching to prevent that. In general you can just analyze all your common motions and postures and then regularly stretch all the muscles that are frequently contracted. Just hold every stretch for about 90 seconds, if you quit too soon it's almost useless. I always used to stretch frequently, but I did it for too short amounts of times. Learning how to do it more effectively was a total gamechanger for me.

Over time that should do wonders for all kinds of pains. From what I hear it even often fixes joint pain that gets misdiagnosed as arthritis. Or rather you may still have arthritis, but chances aren't too bad that on its own it wouldn't cause much pain and the pain gets misattributed to it. 

Vitamin D deficiency is also worth checking and supplementing if neccessary. That too improved some pain symptoms that I had. It's hard to get enough of that through sun and food, depending on where and how you live.


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## MartinH. (Jun 29, 2020)

el-bo said:


> P.S There is a lt of goo to be had from standing desks. However, the way you have ours set up is an ergonomic nightmare, which could leave you with more issue than it solves :(



Just watched that video. Yikes... @Simeon: that setup you have there is really not good for standing in front of it. I hope no one modeled their desk after this and thinks it's a healthy "standing desk" solution :-/.


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## MartinH. (Jun 29, 2020)

el-bo said:


> But it's general fatigue, nerve pinching etc. that keep me with the Wacom, as it doesn't take long with the Magic Trackpad before I'm in pain :(



I thought about this some more - when you use the trackpad, do you rest the heel of your hand on a surface? Do you get the same pain from using the trackpad when you use it without resting your arm on anything? I know that will tire out your shoulder/arm pretty quick, but it might be worth a test to narrow down whether the pressure or repetitive movements cause your pain. Since the Wacom allows you to have no pressure on a part of your hand that is strained by virtually every other input device, except maybe vertical mice, it seems like a logical explanation. If this turns out to be the case, you might get good results from resting your lower arm on a folded towel when you can't use the Wacom, leaving the wrist area free from pressure.

I got the recommendation to use folded towels as wrist rests by a doctor that I met at a LAN party .


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## whinecellar (Jun 29, 2020)

As both an ergonomics nerd and one who has had some RSI issues, I use both a trackball and a trackpad; they each have their strengths. I absolutely love the Kensington Expert Mouse (which is a dumb name because it’s a trackball!) - I’ve used those for 30 years now and they are absolutely rock solid. I have one on each of my computers. 

Whatever the case, use what works for you, and be sure to switch things up and take breaks!


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## el-bo (Jul 4, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> I'm not a doctor but if I remember correctly I've read that carpal tunnel syndrome (causing pain or numbness in the fingers) can be caused by over excercising the big muscle at the base of the thumb. The point of the specific thumb stretching excercise that I'd recommend to try is to reverse the shortening of the muscle fascia to decrease the pressure on the carpal tunnel.



Indeed! But like I said, the CT side of things doesn't really give me any real issues, these days. My thumbs are actually good. It's the fingers that aren't so good



MartinH. said:


> The nerve/pain relationsships are quite unintuitive. If I sit/lie incorrectly for too long, it suddenly feels like someone jabs a needly in my finger. The cause for that is the posture of my neck, not remotely related to the finger. It's just the nerve that gets affected by the issue is the one connected to the finger. Carpal tunnel is simmilar afaik, but cause and effect are closer together: wrist and fingers.



Yeah! Those nerve endings can often be quite a way from their point of origin; enough, that the triggers and pain can often seem disconnected



MartinH. said:


> I'd imagine that sideways thumb-click to be a risk for causing carpal tunnel, so I'd try to do some stretching to prevent that. In general you can just analyze all your common motions and postures and then regularly stretch all the muscles that are frequently contracted. Just hold every stretch for about 90 seconds, if you quit too soon it's almost useless. I always used to stretch frequently, but I did it for too short amounts of times. Learning how to do it more effectively was a total gamechanger for me.



It's been a while since i used that Kensington Trackball. However, I do use the same thumb-press with the trackpad and it doesn't cause me issues. Of course, that might be different if I didn't default to using the Wacom, and had to use the trackpad for everything.

The exercises I do are a mish-mash of things I learnt from various places, along with general movements which I've not specifically learnt from anywhere, but that I feel drawn to doing, and that offer relief. And not that I'm doubting the 90-second thing, but I've never had to hold any of the stretches i do for that amount of time. In fact, I can probably whizz through an entire routine of stretches, in the same amount of time, that offers me almost complete relief. Will definitely try it out, though 




MartinH. said:


> Over time that should do wonders for all kinds of pains. From what I hear it even often fixes joint pain that gets misdiagnosed as arthritis. Or rather you may still have arthritis, but chances aren't too bad that on its own it wouldn't cause much pain and the pain gets misattributed to it.



Actually, I am all-but clear of the arthritis. i can turn the issues on and off via dietary changes. 



MartinH. said:


> Vitamin D deficiency is also worth checking and supplementing if neccessary. That too improved some pain symptoms that I had. It's hard to get enough of that through sun and food, depending on where and how you live.



I'm not in a position where I can get blood-panel work done. However, I already supplement with Vitamin D, as a general precaution.


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## el-bo (Jul 4, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> I thought about this some more - when you use the trackpad, do you rest the heel of your hand on a surface? Do you get the same pain from using the trackpad when you use it without resting your arm on anything? I know that will tire out your shoulder/arm pretty quick, but it might be worth a test to narrow down whether the pressure or repetitive movements cause your pain. Since the Wacom allows you to have no pressure on a part of your hand that is strained by virtually every other input device, except maybe vertical mice, it seems like a logical explanation. If this turns out to be the case, you might get good results from resting your lower arm on a folded towel when you can't use the Wacom, leaving the wrist area free from pressure.
> 
> I got the recommendation to use folded towels as wrist rests by a doctor that I met at a LAN party .



Will try the folded towels. However, the real pain I feel from that downward-pressure seems to stem more from the operation scars that are in the heel of the hand. But again, I'm not looking to be able to spend more time in a position that causes pronation of the wrist/forearm, as it's always going to be a point of stress. I'm not looking to store more issues for the future


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## Pictus (Jul 4, 2020)

el-bo said:


> I'm not in a position where I can get blood-panel work done. However, I already supplement with Vitamin D, as a general precaution.











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## robcs (Jul 4, 2020)

hibhardwaj said:


> What do you guys prefer- a mouse or a trackpad. I am on a 2015 Macbook Pro and adding a Mac Mini for which I want to decide between a magic mouse vs. a trackpad. Also I use Logic Pro X as my primary DAW.
> 
> A subsequent question, any advantages of buying a keyboard with numeric keys on it vs. a regular keyboard.
> 
> ...



On my Mac I use the standard magic keyboard with a Logic overlay. No numeric keypad and I’ve never missed it.

For on-screen control I prefer a mouse - I picked up an ergonomic Bluetooth one to free up a USB port  I just find mice easier to use than trackpads for clicking and dragging.

BUT I also have an Apple Magic Trackpad which I use with Audioswift to turn it into a midi control surface. So, the answer is you need both 

hope that helps


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## Kent (Aug 8, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Have you tried stretches similar to this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Good rule of thumb"


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## el-bo (Aug 8, 2020)

kmaster said:


> "Good rule of thumb"


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## JonS (Oct 12, 2020)

I don't like the Magic Mouse, I love the Magic Trackpad.


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## IFM (Oct 12, 2020)

ka00 said:


> I've been using a Kensington Expert Mouse (i.e. trackball) since 2003 when I developed carpel tunnel like symptoms from 12 hour a day computer use (back when I was doing animations). I've never looked back.
> 
> For anyone who uses a Kensington Expert Mouse (wired or wireless), definitely check out the Kensington *Slimblade*. I didn't think I needed it but I got fed up with the "scratchy" and flimsy scroll ring of the Expert Mouse.
> 
> ...



After making some position adjustments I now love the Slimblade and have two. One for the home Mac and one in the studio paired with a Magic Trackpad so that I can still have gestures available to me. Kensington makes a slim wrist pad to go with the Slim blade...very helpful.


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## ckett (Oct 13, 2020)

IFM said:


> After making some position adjustments I now love the Slimblade and have two. One for the home Mac and one in the studio paired with a Magic Trackpad so that I can still have gestures available to me. Kensington makes a slim wrist pad to go with the Slim blade...very helpful.


IFM,

Check out an app called Smooze for MacOS. This app lets you custom tailor the scrolling characteristics of your trackball. Rather than having the typical rough stepped scrolling it will smooth out this to more resemble how the Apple Magic Mouse and trackpad scroll. And you can customize the settings per app! Very useful.

Having a wrist pad for the Slimblade is a must! You want your wrist elevated so that your hand and fingers are more even with the length of your forearm.


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