# Reaper Users?



## robgb (Mar 20, 2018)

I notice there are very few posts about Reaper here. Is this because too few of us use it or because it has fewer problems than other DAWs? Not trying to start a war, here. Just curious.

Maybe just a show of hands of who uses Reaper?

I started with Cakewalk Home Studio. Graduated to Sonar. Moved to Nuendo. Switched to a Mac and got Logic. Moved to Studio One. Finally settled on Reaper. During the latter of those moves I had Reaper on my hard drive and didn't realize how great it is.


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## d.healey (Mar 20, 2018)

If I have Reaper stuff to discuss I usually use the Reaper forum


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## sostenuto (Mar 20, 2018)

Started with Reaper in 2011 and have not had reason to change. Not heavy-duty User, but on (2) PC Desktop DAWs most days. Forum has been very helpful as well, which has minimized posting here. 
Would benefit from more posts (_both Forums_) involving Reaper and typical orchestral, cinematic, trailer projects.


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## storyteller (Mar 20, 2018)

I converted to Reaper about a year and a half to two years ago and have never looked back. Before that, I was a long time ProTools user, but also used Logic, Cakewalk/Sonar, Cubase, Samplitude, and Digital Performer over the years. When I realized the potential with Reaper, I worked hard to get a mammoth template setup with custom scripting, actions, auto-stem rendering, etc. I made that available to others in the form of Orchestral Template for Reaper once I saw how much work it took and the daunting complexity most new users to Reaper face when they load up vanilla Reaper the first time.

But with that said, I try to keep my conversations here more about non-Reaper stuff since that is how I’ve always used the forum. I try to only mention OTR or point people to my youtube page if it will help them out with their own quest or perhaps if they may find benefit in seeing how others have used Reaper. It is a win-win for everyone by just helping spread knowledge. That’s the whole purpose. So it is a delicate dance for me between mostly normal composer/sample library conversations while also being a resource when people ask for that specifically.

That said, the Reaper forum is hugely helpful, but it seems like most people already have a certain aptitude for Reaper who are active there, which leaves many “how do I” conversations receiving “read the manual” responses. To be honest, that type of reply is not really helpful for most people since they have reached out for help. So RobGB, I dig what you’re saying here.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 20, 2018)

You know me.


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## Quasar (Mar 20, 2018)

robgb said:


> Maybe just a show of hands of who uses Reaper?









For me, Reaper = DAW. Though I once briefly tried and failed to get on with Sonar, I don't have any real experience with or know how to use any of the others. When I read that some DAWs have different kinds of tracks for audio, MIDI, aux etc. it, like, _totally freaks me out_! I wouldn't know how to deal with that.


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## Shredoverdrive (Mar 20, 2018)

I've been using reaper for 6 months (was on Ableton Live before that) and I usually don't have problems with it. Those times I had questions, I found a video answering them. This sums it up, I think.


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## tack (Mar 20, 2018)

robgb said:


> Maybe just a show of hands of who uses Reaper?


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## James Marshall (Mar 20, 2018)

Oh ... "Show of _hands_" (sorry)

I can't picture myself using any other DAW again, at least for the foreseeable future. The longer I use it, the more and more it becomes ingrained into how I work with all its customisation possibilities. Being forced into any particular workflow at this point, as good as other DAWs may be, will just feel so frustrating. 

My only issue here is I find myself regularly having to chip in to threads that descend into off-topic Reaper bashing, with the usual suspects. I don't feel like it gets fair representation on this forum sometimes. Honestly I feel like I'm back at school sitting at the geeks table getting picked on by the popular masses


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## tack (Mar 20, 2018)

James Marshall said:


> descend into off-topic Reaper bashing, with the usual suspects.


I feel like I may even be one of them. We have a love-hate relationship, Reaper and I.


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## JEPA (Mar 20, 2018)

robgb said:


> I notice there are very few posts about Reaper here. Is this because too few of us use it or because it has fewer problems than other DAWs? Not trying to start a war, here. Just curious.
> 
> Maybe just a show of hands of who uses Reaper?
> 
> I started with Cakewalk Home Studio. Graduated to Sonar. Moved to Nuendo. Switched to a Mac and got Logic. Moved to Studio One. Finally settled on Reaper. During the latter of those moves I had Reaper on my hard drive and didn't realize how great it is.



i have walked the same way like you while I've worked in 4 Studios: Cakewalk, Cool Edit, Sonar, including Acid Pro, Cubase short time, Nuendo, ProTools, Sequoia, then Logic and finally married with Reaper, plus parallel rendering in Mixbus (the last one). Love Reaper since then. 
If I have questions I go directly to Reaper forums.

Best, 
Jorge


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 20, 2018)

You guys have me genuinely intrigued about how or why you have chosen to switch and stay in reaper, particularly as it pertains to large templates, orch work, etc I personally would appreciate your stories and experiences with it


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## ghandizilla (Mar 20, 2018)

Had six years of using the free Cakewalk Express and then Pro Audio 9. Switched to FL Studio around 2005. And then, switched to Reaper three months ago only.

What I can tell is that compared to FL Studio, it makes easier to get an overview and to accomodate different CC lanes at the same time, which were the two main reasons of my migration.

I was afraid the software would get complicated since there are so many options. One day sitting in front of the Reaper 5 Explained videos and I was already setting my templates up!

I was afraid of the somewhat clunky behaviour of the MIDI Editor, but the default settings are deeply customizable, and I now dispose of an even more efficient MIDI Editor workflow.

I was afraid it would mix poorly (but would be very transparent in the same time, which is what Zimmer likes with Cubase). With the DAW teacher of the music school I work in, we did Reaper/Pro Tools comparisons in mixing the same files with the same settings. Reaper did well (not as great, but really well).

Also: my compositions improved since I have a better overview oncthem compared to what I got in FL Studio. Which is the most important part of all that stuff.


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## Shredoverdrive (Mar 20, 2018)

In a nutshell : Pros :
It does more or less what the other DAWs do but consumes less resources and is cheaper. It can also be completely tailored to its user.
Cons: Only one : its menus are too long and spidery. But you can configure them also.


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 20, 2018)

I already bought it long ago, how are the ways that some of you customize it?


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## robgb (Mar 20, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> You guys have me genuinely intrigued about how or why you have chosen to switch and stay in reaper, particularly as it pertains to large templates, orch work, etc I personally would appreciate your stories and experiences with it


For me it's simple: customizability. I can bend Reaper to my will and I like that. As for large templates, I don't need them. I simply use track templates, which set up certain tracks the way I want them with the instruments and fx I want, all adjusted to my specifications, and add them as needed. No giant cumbersome orchestral template to deal with.


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## robgb (Mar 20, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> I already bought it long ago, how are the ways that some of you customize it?


That's kind of a loaded question. The possibilities are pretty much endless. I urge you to take a look at the videos on the Reaper.fm website to see what's possible.


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## sostenuto (Mar 20, 2018)

robgb said:


> For me it's simple: customizability. I can bend Reaper to my will and I like that. As for large templates, I don't need them. I simply use track templates, which set up certain tracks the way I want them with the instruments and fx I want, all adjusted to my specifications, and add them as needed. No giant cumbersome orchestral template to deal with.



Early days with Orchestral work and this topic has been tough. *@ storyteller* _ *OTR* has been very tempting after trying his Demo, but this is due to my ineptness so far. 

My indecision in whether I can learn to get where you are 'more effectively' by using large templates … _and then_ go to Track templates, OR …..


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## SchnookyPants (Mar 20, 2018)

I'm on it since 2011. Total flexibility in function as well as appearance. At $60?!! Why NOT?

_Track templates, Project templates, Screen sets, inifinite appearance options, etc., etc., etc., ....._


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## Shredoverdrive (Mar 20, 2018)

A google search will lead you to several free orchestral templates made by enthusiasts. Most of them are very useable after a few tweaks. Can't help you right now, I'm on my phone.


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## robgb (Mar 20, 2018)

SchnookyPants said:


> At $60?!!


Yep. And even the "pro" price is cheaper than many of the others. 


sostenuto said:


> My indecision in whether I can learn to get where you are 'more effectively' by using large templates … _and then_ go to Track templates, OR …..


It all comes down to individual taste. I tend to be overwhelmed by too much information, so it's easier for me to set up track templates and work that way.


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 20, 2018)

robgb said:


> For me it's simple: customizability. I can bend Reaper to my will and I like that. As for large templates, I don't need them. I simply use track templates, which set up certain tracks the way I want them with the instruments and fx I want, all adjusted to my specifications, and add them as needed. No giant cumbersome orchestral template to deal with.



I prefer the idea of a track template also. It sounds like a pretty big investment of time in order to get it where it would need to be to make my happy, and that's the rub...will it be worth the investment of time.

Does Reaper have any possibility of something similar to what I can do with articulation id's and Scripter in LPX?


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## JEPA (Mar 20, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> You guys have me genuinely intrigued about how or why you have chosen to switch and stay in reaper, particularly as it pertains to large templates, orch work, etc I personally would appreciate your stories and experiences with it



for me is the quickness, flexibility and performance (low resource consume). In the year 2010 I recorded a music festival initially with Logic 9. Luckily I was recording a rehearsal and Logic 9 crashed after like 15-20 minutes uninterrupted multitrack recording. I chose Logic because I've thought it was reliable... Since then I discovered Reaper is a beast in recording performance. The rest of the Festival I recorded it with Reaper, without any single crash soever, CPU at it best, perfect. I can imagine, Reaper code is somewhat sweeter, intelligent and lighter than any other's unnecessary codes...


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## robgb (Mar 20, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> Does Reaper have any possibility of something similar to what I can do with articulation id's and Scripter in LPX?


Thanks to @tack it does: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/reaticulate-articulation-management-for-reaper.66851/


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## Divico (Mar 20, 2018)

Sign me in aswell. Its my first DAW and instpite of Midi CC editing I love it. Had also the chance to work a bit with FL, Cubase and Logic but I wasn´t really pleased by them. For me Reaper is really performance oriented and pretty if you customize it. 

While taking mixing classes I had to work with Cubase. My customized Reaper was so much more workflow oriented especially if it comes to routing which Reaper is really good at.


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## robgb (Mar 20, 2018)

Divico said:


> Its my first DAW and instpite of Midi CC editing I love it.


I've never really understood the complaints about the midi cc editing. In my experience it's quite good.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 20, 2018)

It's quite good yes, but it's not, y'know, CURVES AND TRANSFORMS AND STUFF. 

(That said, Transform tool from S1/Cubase *is* pretty dope.)


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## Quasar (Mar 20, 2018)

robgb said:


> I've never really understood the complaints about the midi cc editing. In my experience it's quite good.


I want envelope type lines that you can click on to make points for dragging up and down from any zoom perspective. I dislike the little 0-127 bars for drawing CC info.

I know that the discrete bars are a more "accurate" representation of what's happening, but I don't care. I'm also aware that there is a clunky workaround for creating CC envelopes using ReaMIDIControl, but it's a PIA and is not a substitute for native implementation IMHO...

...This unweildy CC lane layout in the MIDI Editor is really the only feature request I have that means much of anything to me. I don't think it will ever happen though. And other than that, Reaper is pretty much perfect.


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## Replicant (Mar 20, 2018)

Quasar said:


> I want envelope type lines that you can click on to make points for dragging up and down from any zoom perspective. I dislike the little 0-127 bars for drawing CC info.
> 
> I know that the discrete bars are a more "accurate" representation of what's happening, but I don't care. I'm also aware that there is a clunky workaround for creating CC envelopes using ReaMIDIControl, but it's a PIA and is not a substitute for native implementation IMHO...
> 
> ...This unweildy CC lane layout in the MIDI Editor is really the only feature request I have that means much of anything to me. I don't think it will ever happen though. And other than that, Reaper is pretty much perfect.



Agreed 100% 

The CCs in the MIDI editor piss me off daily.


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## robgb (Mar 20, 2018)

Quasar said:


> I know that the discrete bars are a more "accurate" representation of what's happening, but I don't care.


To each his own, I guess. I like the bars and have no problem drawing exactly what I want.


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## sostenuto (Mar 20, 2018)

robgb said:


> To each his own, I guess. I like the bars and have no problem drawing exactly what I want.



Good to hear, while understanding individual preferences. 
Win10 Pro / PC User here, so no option for Logic Pro or other Mac choices.


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 20, 2018)

robgb said:


> Thanks to @tack it does: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/reaticulate-articulation-management-for-reaper.66851/



That's interesting. It looks to me like its not really using any kind of articulation id embedded in the notes though, its just some kind of way to make it a little easier to deal with automation of keyswitching in automation lanes or something yes?


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## tack (Mar 20, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> That's interesting. It looks to me like its not really using any kind of articulation id embedded in the notes though, its just some kind of way to make it a little easier to deal with automation of keyswitching in automation lanes or something yes?


Kind of. It uses program changes for articulations (as Reaper will chase them and they're readable in the MIDI editor), but the articulations themselves are not directly attached to the notes.

I'm waiting to see how Reaper's articulation maps implementation shakes out, whenever that happens. (There was a preview in an earlier 5.x release but it's been descoped and I suspect we won't see it until 6.0.)

Personally I don't have a problem with the program change approach and managing the program events independently from the notes.


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 20, 2018)

tack said:


> Kind of. It uses program changes for articulations (as Reaper will chase them and they're readable in the MIDI editor), but the articulations themselves are not directly attached to the notes.



Does reaper's scripting engine(s), have anything where those single program changes could be converted into several different outgoing keyswitches each? Still sounds a bit fiddly if not attached directly to the notes as in LPX. 



> I'm waiting to see how Reaper's articulation maps implementation shakes out, whenever that happens. (There was a preview in an earlier 5.x release but it's been descoped and I suspect we won't see it until 6.0.)


when is 6.00 scheduled to come out?



> Personally I don't have a problem with the program change approach and managing the program events independently from the notes.



It can get a lot more interesting when there are numerous keyswitches that need to happen for one note...and the outgoing content is a mix of notes, CC's, etc. I guess maybe Reaper has some kind of midi scripting that might be able to react to the program changes in some way but since they are technically not linked to the actual notes, then polyphonic articulations would not really be possible, well anyway it sounds like something I would have to investigate a little deeper.

I'll add reaper to my list of things to check out more one day...but I'm still curious to hear how people are actually customizing such that they prefer it over Logic, Cubase and other other big ones.


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## Quasar (Mar 20, 2018)

Replicant said:


> Agreed 100%
> 
> The CCs in the MIDI editor piss me off daily.


Maybe if enough of us make enough noise, who knows? I think we're in the minority, but at least we're not a hopelessly marginalized lunatic fringe. There are quite a few folks who would like to see this addressed.


robgb said:


> To each his own, I guess. I like the bars and have no problem drawing exactly what I want.


It's fine for drawing, say, a decrescendo that spans a couple of bars. But for nuanced, fine CC1 or CC2 editing _per note_? You don't think it's klutzy and clumsy? Even with it set to 1/128?

But I'm not arguing your assertion. If it works for you, then it does...


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## maestro2be (Mar 20, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> You know me.


We've never heard of you . Are you the new guy?  (duck)


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## tack (Mar 20, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> Does reaper's scripting engine(s), have anything where those single program changes could be converted into several different outgoing keyswitches each? Still sounds a bit fiddly if not attached directly to the notes as in LPX.


Yes. Reaticulate is pretty flexible in this regard. From http://reaticulate.com/reabank.html#output-events



> Programs can trigger up to 16 _output events_, specified by the o attribute, which ultimately describe the articulation’s behavior.
> 
> Output events can be used to send a MIDI event to the virtual instrument to cause the underlying patch to change articulations, or even just to set up routing to some destination MIDI channel. Or both: you can have a program send a MIDI event to a specific channel, and subsequently performed MIDI will be routed to that channel.



(This flexibility will be further enhanced in the next release as well.)




Dewdman42 said:


> when is 6.00 scheduled to come out?


It's not scheduled, and your guess is as good as mine as to when it'll be released. The thing about Reaper's development is that it has no published roadmap and its trajectory seems to follow the ever-changing whims of its two core creators. (Not that, I suppose, any of the major DAWs have a published roadmap and release schedule?)




Dewdman42 said:


> It can get a lot more interesting when there are numerous keyswitches that need to happen for one note...and the outgoing content is a mix of notes, CC's, etc.


Yes, this is no problem at all for Reaticulate. Depending on your personal level of combined curiosity and masochism, you could look at this section in the video where I cover how it works with the Bohemian Violin which has some interesting requirements. (That example only shows 1 output event per articulation but you can have up to 16.)


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 20, 2018)

That sounds interesting enough that I will check it out more later when I get some time.

An additional requirement I have in at least one case is to also pick the keyswitches to send (or channelizing, or both), based on a dynamic indicator such as velocity or CC1. Do you see any way that would be possible, including adding my own script somewhere in the midi signal path?


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## tack (Mar 20, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> An additional requirement I have in at least one case is to also pick the keyswitches to send (or channelizing, or both), based on a dynamic indicator such as velocity or CC1. Do you see any way that would be possible, including adding my own script somewhere in the midi signal path?


Do you mean that you set a certain articulation, but the actual output events (to control the underlying patch) aren't emitted until a subsequent input MIDI event like a note within a certain velocity range or CC1 within a certain value range, and that the specifics of those subsequent input events influence the output events?

If I understand you right, no, that's not currently possible. It's an interesting idea though. Not technically impossible to implement, though a pretty big design change. I'd like to understand more about your use-case if you don't mind explaining?


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## ironbut (Mar 20, 2018)

I never had an issue with the piano roll in Reaper.
It's always seemed pretty intuitive to me.

For a long time I used Pro Tools and Reaper (and Ableton a little). 
I like PT for editing/mixing because you learn how to perform tasks and that's it. You just rinse and repeat and you get faster and faster the more you use it.
Reaper is kind of the opposite.
It is so flexible that you can make it into the Reaper you want. 
So if it's a task you need to repeat over and over, you can create macros that turn it into a single key stroke.
Unfortunately, I'm just too easily distracted and I fall down these Reaper rabbit holes for days experimenting and reading posts on the forum and it was taking forever to get anything done.
I mean, it would be great if even a tiny bit of my focus was about application development, but it isn't.
So, for the last couple of months I'm giving Logic a try hoping it'll be a happy medium between the two.


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 20, 2018)

Yep. In LPX I set the articulation id to something, for example marcato, but some of the specifics about the keyswitches will be different depending on the note velocity.

In your system, how do you go about assigning articulations to notes? or do you just place program changes manually in front of the notes you want effected by a keyswitch or set of keyswitches?

does your system handle toggles and momentary keyswitches?


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## tack (Mar 20, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> or do you just place program changes manually in front of the notes you want effected by a keyswitch or set of keyswitches?


Right. That's how it works. I'll be adding some UI improvements such that selecting a set of notes will also select program changes within the selected range (and a little bit ahead of the selected range) which will make them easier to manipulate together, but in practice they're independent events.



Dewdman42 said:


> does your system handle toggles and momentary keyswitches?


Yes, for certain values of "momentary keyswitches"


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 20, 2018)

toggles are kind of more interesting problem anyway. For example, with Kirk Hunter Spotlight Solo Strings, I handle that in LPX by assigning CC automation to the staccato control in KH's kontakt UI, then I can turn staccato on and off, as its a "toggle" feature. You have to use CC automation otherwise there is no way to know for sure whether kontakt currently has it on or off. So in my LPX script I keep track of whether its on or off as we go to avoid resending keyswitches redundantly, etc.. 

Well from what I can gather so far you have done some admiral stuff with reaticulate...its definitely something to consider if I mess around more with Reaper. Just mousing around in Reaper though it seems immediately overwhelming to me, LPX is very comfortable and intuitive. But I'm still genuinely interested if the learning curve can be justified in some way by some feature. As of now I have to say I can do more in LPX for articulation management, but perhaps there are other features...


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## tack (Mar 20, 2018)

Yes, Reaper can definitely be overwhelming. IMO if you're comfortable and productive with LPX and there are no major aggravations, stick with it.


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 20, 2018)

well, I'm still curious as to what people are doing specifically with Reaper that makes it worth the leap.


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## robgb (Mar 20, 2018)

Quasar said:


> But for nuanced, fine CC1 or CC2 editing _per note_?


When I'm drawing for a particular note, I simply zoom is very close. This make drawing much, much easier.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 21, 2018)

Quasar said:


> Maybe if enough of us make enough noise, who knows?



The request for curves in MIDI editor is pretty old... I think even more than 8 years now. There haven't been a lot of FRs that got fulfilled after that much time... I would assume that devs consider ReaControlMIDI the solution... plus since ReaControlMIDI is since one of latest versions also sample-accurate (whereas CCs in MIDI editor are always snapped to the closest available MIDI tick), it also provides this as an additional benefit, for those who consider sample-accuracy important.


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## JEPA (Mar 21, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> The request for curves in MIDI editor is pretty old... I think even more than 8 years now. There haven't been a lot of FRs that got fulfilled after that much time... I would assume that devs consider ReaControlMIDI the solution... plus since ReaControlMIDI is since one of latest versions also sample-accurate (whereas CCs in MIDI editor are always snapped to the closest available MIDI tick), it also provides this as an additional benefit, for those who consider sample-accuracy important.


thanks @EvilDragon. @Quasar I have found this video showing ReaControlMIDI:


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## Quasar (Mar 21, 2018)

JEPA said:


> I have found this video showing ReaControlMIDI:



Yeah, this is a decent intro to what ReaControlMIDI can do. Kenny Gioia (Reaper Mania) has one too. You can also use CTRL to get a pencil tool and draw the envelopes freehand, then reduce the number of points for easy, further adjusting as needed. I also have the default point type set to bézier in: Options/Preferences/Project/Track Send Defaults, Default Point Shape

I think SWS has some actions for customizing the drawing workflow too, but I haven't looked into this yet.


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## Divico (Mar 21, 2018)

To all of you who are pissed of by CC editing like me. Go check out the CCEnv plugin, if you don´t know it already.
https://vi-control.net/community/th...oth-midi-cc-automation-in-reaper.54554/page-2
It gives you the option to record your controlers as automation lanes where you can do the same editing as with using ReaControMIDI.
I use this a lot since I do a lot of Midi editing by mouse. This approach works quite ok but it´s still far from a native implamantation.


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## Divico (Apr 3, 2018)

robgb said:


> I've never really understood the complaints about the midi cc editing. In my experience it's quite good.


I have a problem with recording Midi CC. The first pass is ok but when I try to redo a faderride I can´t get Reaper to do what I want. setting record mode to overdub gives me a fusion of old data and new one and midi latch removes not only midi CC but also notes, so I have to delete my old run first before I can do a new one. Therefore I mostly draw things in by hand.


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## Ran Zhou (Apr 6, 2018)

Hand Here! I'm still on the evaluation version though.


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## Eckoes (Apr 6, 2018)

Reaper is the first and only DAW I’ve ever used and I love it.

Being a complete novice at the time, I had no idea that Reaper was considered to be difficult to learn in comparison with other software, so I didn’t worry about it and just went ahead with learning it. That learning process continues to this day, although I have the main stuff down.

I’m not running giant orchestral templates because I don’t compose that kind of music. Not that I wouldn’t want to but I have enough trouble being creative and finishing tracks in my rock/jazz/prog/psych world that trying to learn to compose for an orchestra seems incredibly daunting at my semi advanced age! So Reaper works really well for me and seems pretty lightweight as far as resources go. My projects rarely have more than 20 tracks and for the most part Reaper can handle that with ease. I do have to freeze certain virtual instrument tracks from time to time but that works out well.

Love Reaper...can’t imagine ever moving to another DAW.


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## EvilDragon (Apr 6, 2018)

I also think that a lot of people having issues with Reaper is because they can't unlearn what they've been doing up until the point they tried Reaper. It's pretty much always going to be the case when you try to move from your first tool ever (or your most used tool ever) to something else, kinda unavoidable...


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## Mars (May 13, 2018)

I didn't want to start a new topic about Reaper, so I'm using this one and I hope it's fine for everybody...

I've created my first "complete" orchestral template in Reaper, it contains 104 tracks, each one loaded with Kontakt or Play (but almost 40 tracks are disabled for ram saving considerations). I'm quite happy with it but I've got a 8-9 seconds freeze each time I'm saving the project (that means every five minutes for auto saving). 

Do you know what could be the best way to decrease this saving time ?


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## Divico (May 13, 2018)

Mars said:


> I didn't want to start a new topic about Reaper, so I'm using this one and I hope it's fine for everybody...
> 
> I've created my first "complete" orchestral template in Reaper, it contains 104 tracks, each one loaded with Kontakt or Play (but almost 40 tracks are disabled for ram saving considerations). I'm quite happy with it but I've got a 8-9 seconds freeze each time I'm saving the project (that means every five minutes for auto saving).
> 
> Do you know what could be the best way to decrease this saving time ?


Quite a lot of sampler instances you got running there. I´d advice you to cut them down to instrument groiups. This will free up ram and probably also saving time. Second one is where do you store your projects, an SSD would help for sure. Save minimal undo states is a feature that can also help.


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## EvilDragon (May 13, 2018)

Yes, every time you save a project, all plugin state chunks get written to the project file. This can take time if you have lots of instruments loaded into Kontakt/PLAY. Nothing you can do about it, it's the nature of the beast.



Divico said:


> Save minimal undo states is a feature that can also help.



This won't reduce the size of projects and the time needed to write them out, though. It'll just influence the undo file.


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## oxo (May 13, 2018)

me too. ....reaper user for many years. slim, fast, customizable, stable, no problems for years and can do everything i need.


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## Mars (May 13, 2018)

Divico said:


> Quite a lot of sampler instances you got running there. I´d advice you to cut them down to instrument groiups.





EvilDragon said:


> Yes, every time you save a project, all plugin state chunks get written to the project file. This can take time if you have lots of instruments loaded into Kontakt/PLAY.



I tried to save on an SSD and it didn't change the saving time. I guess I'll have to go the hard way, also known as the routing way 
One Kontakt per instance seemed easier to organize, also because I would got more flexibility with delays (using Time Adjustement delay). But I guess one kontakt deticated to legatos would do the trick. Do you guys have one instance per instruments family or more ? 

I've read that the composer of COD WWII who made it entirely in one Reaper project started with a template at 12mb... mine is 124 !!


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## EvilDragon (May 13, 2018)

Yeah try to use more instruments loaded into Kontakt instances. You'll save some RAM (roughly 60-80 MB per additional instance of Kontakt).


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## Mars (May 13, 2018)

Which could save me few gigs of ram  Great !


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## Divico (May 13, 2018)

Mars said:


> I tried to save on an SSD and it didn't change the saving time. I guess I'll have to go the hard way, also known as the routing way
> One Kontakt per instance seemed easier to organize, also because I would got more flexibility with delays (using Time Adjustement delay). But I guess one kontakt deticated to legatos would do the trick. Do you guys have one instance per instruments family or more ?
> 
> I've read that the composer of COD WWII who made it entirely in one Reaper project started with a template at 12mb... mine is 124 !!


I use one instance per Instrument housing my articulations. You can archive the delay by adding a negative midi delay as EvilDragon posted in a different thread. I think Play is even more resource hungry. Freed a lot of memory in my case to do it the Routing way


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## pmcrockett (May 13, 2018)

Mars said:


> I tried to save on an SSD and it didn't change the saving time. I guess I'll have to go the hard way, also known as the routing way
> One Kontakt per instance seemed easier to organize, also because I would got more flexibility with delays (using Time Adjustement delay). But I guess one kontakt deticated to legatos would do the trick. Do you guys have one instance per instruments family or more ?
> 
> I've read that the composer of COD WWII who made it entirely in one Reaper project started with a template at 12mb... mine is 124 !!


I haven't attempted to set this up so I don't know if/how well it would work, but an option for reducing save time might be to create a RAM drive (free utilities are available for this), save the project to the RAM drive, and set the RAM drive to copy to the physical drive in the background. It would be a little less secure than a normal save (e.g. if you lose power before the RAM drive copies over, you'll lose the save), but in principle it should reduce lag when saving.


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## ADSRsounds (May 15, 2018)

I've recently started to use Reaper more in my sound design work. Ableton Live is my DAW of choice but some of the tools in Reaper make it invaluable when batch editing a bunch of sound effects. Big fan of the automation scripts


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## Mars (May 18, 2018)

So, I've done a lot of tests the last few days in order to decrease saving times... The most "time consumming" was rebuilding a full template with a nice and clean routing. 

I now have only 4 kontakt and 4 Play instances running instead of more than 50. Great Ram savings for sure, but... still a 12 seconds GUI freeze while saving. I tried many configurations, which led to the conclusion that it wasn't Kontakt's fault, because Play was bringing the same amount of freeze (each instrument section made a decrease in saving time by 3 seconds approximatively). 

I also tried to move Reaper and save paths in a SSD which changed nothing (that's why I didn't tried the Ram disk solution yet). 

I tried then to modify compatibility settings of the FX (unchecking "save state as VST bank", or checking "save minimal undo") which didn't help either.

Then I found one "radical" solution and disabled in Reaper preferences "Disable full plug in state", which worked perfectly (zero freeze while saving). 

Am I really the only one struggling while saving a big template (which might seem not "big" to many professionnals I guess) ? 
What are the risks that could happen in disabling Full Plug in state ? 
Thanks again for your help guys


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## Mars (May 18, 2018)

Ok, I've found what it's doing, it doesn't save the patches in the PLay and Kontakt instances, so it's useless... 
I hope that the solution is not buying VEP 6 
But I'm really surprised that I do not see the issue appearing more often on forums (meaning that I probably do something wrong ?).


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## tack (May 18, 2018)

How big is your project file? My template is about 220MB and projects save in about 1.5 seconds for me.


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## pderbidge (May 18, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> well, I'm still curious as to what people are doing specifically with Reaper that makes it worth the leap.


As I type a response I'm trying to make sure to use spellcheck for EvilDragon's Sake

I'm not sure this can be easily answered because there are so many different things for different people. In the other thread I mentioned the need for one to take a basic "getting started" course like the ones on Groove 3 and Macprovideo. I understand that there are also YouTube channels dedicated to tutorials on Reaper, however I think they can also be the reason some feel overwhelmed. I like the A to Z approach because they make things much more manageable for someone new to Reaper by giving a step by step from basic to advanced, instead of a *hodgepodge* (You like that Evildragon? My new word of the day) approach.

I know that's not the easy and cheap way for anyone to learn Reaper, but I think it's truly the only good and fair way to learn it. By the way, I would recommend the same for any DAW. 

In looking at Kenny Gioia's site it looks like his tutorials are more up to date than the ones on Groove 3, plus they're free as far as I can tell. I would recommend going through his "Reaper 5 Explained" videos here http://www.kennymania.com/reaper-videos/

I also highly recommend a video called "Reaper Signal Flow Explained" on Groove3. Understanding your DAW's signal flow is very important imho.

By the way, another Reaper user here


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## Mars (May 18, 2018)

tack said:


> How big is your project file? My template is about 220MB and projects save in about 1.5 seconds for me.



My largest template was 124MB, with few instances of Kontakt it's now 70/80MB... So there's definitely a problem with my configuration... Did you install Kontakt/Play directly on a SSD ?


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## thevisi0nary (May 26, 2018)

I use reaper and like it a lot. It does have this weird phenomenon of simultaneously feeling very flexible yet cumbersome in at least a few situations (I mainly use it for midi). That said I am not a power user and I’m sure some of the issues could be addressed through optimization. 

One major plus though, and seems to be in contrast with how some people feel about it, it’s actually been the easiest daw for me to get a grasp of, at least in comparison to the ones I’ve tried or put my hands on. It seems to me like a very “do it your way” daw, and I love that. I can’t think of anything else I want from it outside of smoothing out the midi editor a bit.


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## Sekkle (May 27, 2018)

Mars said:


> Ok, I've found what it's doing, it doesn't save the patches in the PLay and Kontakt instances, so it's useless...
> I hope that the solution is not buying VEP 6
> But I'm really surprised that I do not see the issue appearing more often on forums (meaning that I probably do something wrong ?).



I’ve also found the save times seem slow once I have a few instances of Kontakt/Play. I’ve been writing a number of tracks and working around it but once they get heavy the save times become really disruptive. I don’t remember noticing it as much with similar sized projects in Cubase.

The only way around it I tried today was using VEP with everything decoupled. For example I loaded 10 instances of Play with HS in a new project directly and the save time was a couple of seconds. The same Play instances in VEP decoupled was almost instant.

Another anomaly I’ve come across is when I have heavy plugins on folders within folders within folders etc. It can very easily max out the cpu and create bad playback glitching. From what I’ve managed to find on the reaper forum is that it’s probably something to do with the way reaper deals with PDC. Apparently putting empty folder between the folders and tracks with plugins can help but something I haven’t tried. Tbh though Inhate to think of how messy my projects would become with that workaround!

It’s these two issues that make my reaper experience a bit rocky at times, especially when I’m getting deep into a large project. Freezing helps but it does take time when constantly unfreezing again to adjust things. There are so many positives about Reaper though so hopefully I can find solutions to these couple of issues.


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## Sekkle (May 28, 2018)

I thought i’d better add that i’ve canned the VEP solution as it doesn’t seem to really play nice with Reaper. After enabling a few instances when hitting stop on playback the release of the samples is delayed and glitches. I remembered that this was why I’d never started using it when I first started using Reaper! Anyway, I’d rather go with the sluggish save times as Kontakt/play run a lot better natively.


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## enyawg (May 28, 2018)

Another Reaper tragic here since 2016.

Not the best composer out there but always learning, including from you guys. I run a MacBook Pro host with a PC & Mac Mini slave.

The VI Control Forum has always been very helpful (I try to help where I can too).
Reaper does everything I need in both midi and audio with cool SWS and REAScripts that are part of my daily template/ menu workflow.

I come from the recording / mastering engineer rock world so own and still run a Pro Tools TDM rig with stacks of cool outboard gear. My Reaper stems are often received and mastered (if required) in that PT rig.


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## Mars (May 28, 2018)

Sekkleman said:


> I thought i’d better add that i’ve canned the VEP solution as it doesn’t seem to really play nice with Reaper. After enabling a few instances when hitting stop on playback the release of the samples is delayed and glitches. I remembered that this was why I’d never started using it when I first started using Reaper!



Thanks for sharing your experience with VEP, that will save me some money and time  

I had a chat with some advanced Reaper users, and everybody's telling me these "save times" are quite normal, and are quite usual on any DAW with such a high number of Kontakt instances.

So I decided to "let go", and spend more time on music than experimenting with Reaper  
One Kontakt/Play instance per articulation + kontakt purged + Disabling/Freezing unused tracks is now my workflow. It's giving me a 2/3 seconds save lag with the essentials arc activated (shorts/longs/legatos) for brass/strings, Albion ensemble for woodwinds (before exploding it to individuals instruments), One piano track and percussion deactivated.
I activate a track in less than a sec with a shortcut key, so it's still practical. 

I'm also using Calebfaith scripts to work way faster with CSS and hide/show unused tracks.


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## Sekkle (May 28, 2018)

Mars said:


> Thanks for sharing your experience with VEP, that will save me some money and time


No worries! From your earlier posts I realised you may have read my previous post and tried VEP, so glad I was able to test it further before you went down that path.

I'm pretty much using the workflow you describe and am also just 'letting go' on the save times and getting on with music making. There's just so many positives about Reaper I can't imagine going back to Cubase now as there's too many things I'll miss. Even with these save time issues and the PDC problem, things are still a lot faster on Reaper. I'll check out those scripts from Caleb Faith - thanks for the tip!


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