# Making Logic Pro X MIDI editing more fluid, natural, intuitive (a la Cubase)



## AlexRuger (Nov 2, 2015)

Hey all,

I used to work with Logic for years, but eventually switched to Cubase after getting fed up with the clunky MIDI editing work flow. Manipulating MIDI data (note velocities, on/off quantization, CC data, etc) in Cubase is far more intuitive and elegant than in any other DAW I've tried.

I'm currently doing some arranging work for a composer who works in Logic, and unless I'm missing something, it's obvious that Apple hasn't changed the MIDI editing workflow at all since Logic 9, and it's incredibly frustrating and slow to work with. I've done some searching but haven't come up with much. 

Do any of you Logic experts have any tips on making MIDI editing a bit better in Logic? 

A couple specific questions:

1) Can you map different MIDI transform functions to key commands? In Cubase, I've mapped note-on quantize to Q, note-off quantize to option-Q, set all selected notes to velocity of 100 to option-V, stuff like that. 

2) I like to keep my MIDI very clean and am therefore pretty anal with my quantization, so in Cubase I'm often switching the grid from 1/4s to 1/8ths, etc, which can easily be done in the piano roll. In Logic, I have to set *both* the grid (no less in the arrange window! I like to use a full-screen piano roll, so switching back to the arrange window is just one extra step to slow me down), *and* the "Time Quantize (classic)" in the piano roll. Is it possible to "tie" these two settings together, and is it possible to change the grid in the piano roll window?

3) I assume not, but am I able to view multiple lines of CC data at once?

To be clear, I'm talking about *only* using the full-window piano roll. I don't know how anyone can possibly work in the half-screen one Logic tries to force upon you (the fact that I have to hold option while double-clicking a region to get it to open in the full piano roll irritates me to no end).

Any answer to the above questions as well as any other helpful stuff will be greatly, greatly appreciated. Thanks, all.


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## Peter Schwartz (Nov 2, 2015)

1) No

2) Yes & No
*No*, you can't link quantization and grid division. *Yes*, you can change the grid division using key commands, and this might make the process a bit less painful. The ones I use the most are Set Next Higher Division Value and Set Next Lower Division Value (do a search for "Division Value" in the key commands window). Or, you can hard-assign the ones you use the most to specific keys.

3) No


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## Peter Schwartz (Nov 2, 2015)

But wait, there's more!

Back to #3... You can use the key command for *MIDI Draw: Autodefine* to cycle through all of the different types of channel messages (CCs, bend, a/t) as well as note velocities. There are also key commands for selecting specific types of CCs to display in MIDI Draw. So while you can't see more than one type of event at a time in MIDI Draw, at least you can get to them without having to select them from a (fiddly) menu.

The other thing you _could_ do (though it might be like decaf, as in "why bother?") is to move your so-called Region Based Automation (CCs, etc.) to track automation. Then you can view them all simultaneously in the automation display. This carries with it its own set of caveats, but in any event* it can be done.

* totally unintentional pun, I swear


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 2, 2015)

Or you can view them in the Step Editor.


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## AlexRuger (Nov 2, 2015)

Awesome, thank you so much, guys. Much appreciated.

Honestly, I don't know how so many composers use Logic, the MIDI features are just so half-baked...I commend all you brave souls who make it work!


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 2, 2015)

And Allan Silvestri makes it work.. and Sean Callery.... and Jeff Beal.... and Reinhold Heil... and Nick Phoenix..... and Michael Levine..... and David Newman.... and lots of others, including a half dozen or so Cubase users who hired me to help them switch who have not gone back. I guess we are all just masochists.


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## Vision (Nov 2, 2015)

AlexRuger said:


> Awesome, thank you so much, guys. Much appreciated.
> 
> Honestly, I don't know how so many composers use Logic, the MIDI features are just so half-baked...I commend all you brave souls who make it work!



Wow.. Really? We Logic users must be mad geniuses then.  I realize logic isn't the end all when it comes to interface.. but I personally flow just fine with Logic X. I consider myself to be a fairly meticulous programmer.. spend a lot of time editing. But perhaps I'm just so used to it, that logic doesn't seem that difficult.. I started using logic in '03 before apple bought emagic. I tried cubase years ago (Mac), but never really got into the work flow. Plus, I think Logic is more cpu effecient on the Mac platform. Anyway, to each thier own..


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## Vision (Nov 2, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> And Allan Silvestri makes it work.. and Sean Callery.... and Jeff Beal.... and Reinhold Heil... and Nick Phoenix..... and Michael Levine..... and David Newman.... and lots of others, including a half dozen or so Cubase users who hired me to help them switch who have not gone back. I guess we are all just masochists.



John Powell says hi too.


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## Peter Schwartz (Nov 2, 2015)

_"I guess we are all just masochists." -Jay Asher
_
Much as I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Logic guy, there might be a grain of truth in that. Then again, I tried Cubase once and broke out in hives*.

* figuratively


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## jonathanwright (Nov 3, 2015)

I work in Cubase and Logic X almost 50/50 due to the different projects I'm on, I've found the following helps to keep things as non-disruptive as possible in Logic when coming from the Cubase workflow.


Duplicate key commands so that they have as much parity as possible, it's amazing how much easier this makes life when using multiple DAWs.
As Peter said, setting key commands for the MIDI CC display in the Piano Roll helps greatly. I've set ones for Velocity, Modulation and Expression (modifier keys plus V, M and E), which makes switching between them pain free.
Applying key commands to functions is what I miss the most from Cubase, however I've created a heap of Midi Transforms that do all of those every-day things like adjust velocity and various quantizing. I use the Transform windows key command then select what I need. Not perfect but it does the job.
It can be very useful to have the List Editor open all the time, with just CC/Note data displayed. Often it's far quicker to make adjustments by selecting everything in there and dragging up and down, than trying to do the same in the Piano Roll.


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## kclements (Nov 3, 2015)

Peter Schwartz said:


> ...The other thing you _could_ do (though it might be like decaf, as in "why bother?") ...



How dare you disparage my Decaf Coffee, sir. How dare you? Why bother? Why bother indeed!

I shall remove SS2 from all future templates until you offer a sincere apology

Just kidding, love SS2

Cheers,
Yours decaffeinated
kc


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## kclements (Nov 3, 2015)

Sorry, needed my morning coffee. Anyway, I find the key commands to cycle through the midi draw feature very handy. I don't use the event list very often, I shall give that a try as well.

I do wish you could assign key commands to any of the midi draw functions ( can you?) like cc80. I use this a lot in LASS and have to do the whole menu thing to get the first one. Ah, maybe this is a good thing to put in my template. _Light bulb moment
_
Thanks for all the great info


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## Vik (Nov 3, 2015)

AlexRuger said:


> I don't know how so many composers use Logic, the MIDI features are just so half-baked


Are there really so many (compared with Cubase)?
http://vi-control.net/community/thr...ram-for-work-with-orchestral-libraries.43016/

Btw, I think the term "half-baked" is an exaggeration. In many cases the functions are only 20% baked, not baked at all, and in worst case, there isn't even a recipe. And Jay: (unfortunately) posting a list of people who use Logic doesn't change that. 


> 3) I assume not, but am I able to view multiple lines of CC data at once?


If you use Automation, and not MIDI Draw, you can seem multiple lanes of automation in Arrange (one lane for Dynamics, one for Vibrato etc). But prepare yourself for a headache if you try.


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 3, 2015)

,And your saying it is so Vlk, or other DAW users saying it is so, doesn't make it empirically so either.

Just saying 

In the end, each DAW has its own workflow and people like what they like. I have been doing MIDI editing in Logic since 1.0, and I am happy with it, but then I live in the Event List and Score Editor far more than the piano roll editor. 2 months ago Allan Silvestri told me that at some point he tried to convert to Cubase on the advice of some friends (HZ?) and just didn't like it at all.

There are former Opcode Studio Vision users who still say that Studio Vision had the best and most powerful Piano Roll editor of all.


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## dgburns (Nov 3, 2015)

my answers

1- yes,I've got a quantize button set on my ipad lemur shortcuts page for quantize.Not in front of it all now,but it is do-able.

2- you set the grid in the transport section,or am I missing something in your complaint? btw I also have a shortcut button on lemur for division+ and division -,so I can toggle through them going up or down remotely.

3-I have a screenset setup so I have a piano roll and a hyper edit window right underneath it to see multiple cc lanes for whatever I want.Different sets for different libs.So for Lass,I want different things then say ew libs.All setup as buttons on lemur remotely by name.elegant and FAST.

use transform sets for the midi stuff like velocity editing etc.I've got about 20 or so that I rolled myself for stuff I do alot.You can import them from other projects etc.Much of what can be done in the cubase logical editor can be done with the LPX transform,but maybe it takes a couple transform steps.You really need to learn/know how it works to make the most of it. imho of course.


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## Vik (Nov 3, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> ,And your saying it is so Vlk, or other DAW users saying it is so, doesn't make it empirically so either.
> 
> Just saying


Sure. 
But – I'm not saying Logic's Articulation Maps are implemented in a less good way than Cubase's Expression Maps, or that VST Expression is better than AU Expression, that Logic's multitrack Idea Hub is not as good as the Sibelius Idea Hub - and so forth. I'm saying that Apple hasn't even implemented such features! Logic is at version 10 now, Cubase got Expression Maps in version! Like Steinberg or not, but they have at least been trying. 



> people like what they like


 Sure, but all those "people could make music with Creator on Atari as well"-kind of arguments are IMHO invalid as an argument against improving Logic. 
Lots users are happy with a cumbersome workflow up to the point when they realise how much simpler things could have been - they have told us this many times already.

Here's a situation I don't really understand:
User A says that he is missing this or that from his DAW.
User B doesn't miss the same things as User A. 
So far so good... but - why does it happen so often that the user B crowd jumps in to remind us that they are happy with things as they are, when we simply discuss what changes that would be need ed to make us happy as well? 

Let's just accept that one group of users are happy with Logic as it is, and another group of users have been missing development in the score area, re. articulation control, CC automation etc for several years now. We know that some of you have gotten used to Logic and don't miss any improvements. We're _not_ suggesting that Apple should start to make us more happy and remove the workflow you guys are used to. 

I'm old enough to think about the book 1984 and the movie 2001 as some kind of distant science fiction scenarios. We're in 2015 now, and the CC/articulation (etc) control doesn't feel even close to offer a good workflow, and very little has happened with these features for _years_ now.


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 3, 2015)

Please don't misunderstand me, Logic Pro is far from perfect and I welcome any and all improvements. But that statement is, and yes, I have seen virtually all of them in action, equally applicable to all of them.


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## AlexRuger (Nov 3, 2015)

Ugh, didn't mean to offend anyone or try and start a which-DAW-is-better war...

Anyways...



dgburns said:


> 1- yes,I've got a quantize button set on my ipad lemur shortcuts page for quantize.Not in front of it all now,but it is do-able.



Yeah, Lemur seems to be the best way after key commands to go about this. Is there a specific template you use or did you set it up yourself?



dgburns said:


> 2- you set the grid in the transport section,or am I missing something in your complaint? btw I also have a shortcut button on lemur for division+ and division -,so I can toggle through them going up or down remotely.



My complaint is that there are too many extra steps. In Cubase, the notes quantize to the grid setting, and the grid setting is available in the piano roll. So basically you can set both the grid and the quantization length in one fell swoop, without leaving the piano roll. But again, the Lemur thing would fix this.



dgburns said:


> 3-I have a screenset setup so I have a piano roll and a hyper edit window right underneath it to see multiple cc lanes for whatever I want.Different sets for different libs.So for Lass,I want different things then say ew libs.All setup as buttons on lemur remotely by name.elegant and FAST.



Would you mind posting a screen shot of this?


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 3, 2015)

AlexRuger said:


> Ugh, didn't mean to offend anyone or try and start a which-DAW-is-better war...
> 
> 
> 
> without leaving the piano roll.



Which is fine if a piano roll is your favorite kind of editor. I would rather look at an event list because I relate to numbers better than bar graphs and I can see things all the way down to the tick level clearly.


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## Peter Schwartz (Nov 3, 2015)

kclements said:


> Sorry, needed my morning coffee.



But decaf isn't coff...

Please pardon my rueful remark about decaffeinated coffee. It is of course a delicious and highly meaningful beverage which, when consumed, makes life so much worth living and has the added benefit of enhancing one's understanding of DAW operation such that no one -- and I mean no one -- should ever disparage consumption of same.



> I do wish you could assign key commands to any of the midi draw functions ( can you?) like cc80. I use this a lot in LASS and have to do the whole menu thing to get the first one. Ah, maybe this is a good thing to put in my template. _Light bulb moment_



No, unfortunately there isn't a dedicated k/command for CC80. However, here's (maybe) the next best thing... In the k/commands window, look for this item and assign a key command to it:






Now invoke that k/command and a floating window will appear listing CC's. Click on the one you want to see and -- faster than you can say "decaf" -- it will appear in the MIDI Draw display.

This will work for the MIDI Draw display in the Piano Roll or right in the region itself (as seen in the tracks area).





All that said... if your region contains just (say) notes, sustain pedal, and CC80, and MIDI Draw is currently disabled, hitting the *MIDI Draw: Autodefine key *command 2x would get you to your CC80 display very quickly. But when you have a large variety of data in a region, sometimes it's necessary to hit that key command too many times to make that practical, so this might be an option.


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## Saxer (Nov 3, 2015)

A lot of editing is already done in the inspector. For everything else I use mostly a combination of the score editor and the event list. I don't use the piano roll a lot.


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## kclements (Nov 4, 2015)

Peter Schwartz said:


> But decaf isn't coff...
> 
> Please pardon my rueful remark about decaffeinated coffee. It is of course a delicious and highly meaningful beverage which, when consumed, makes life so much worth living and has the added benefit of enhancing one's understanding of DAW operation such that no one -- and I mean no one -- should ever disparage consumption of same.
> 
> ...



Thanks for this, Peter. Things are often times right in view, and yet missed completely. Excuse me while I go add a couple new key commands to my repertoire

Cheers
kc


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## kunst91 (Nov 4, 2015)

Peter Schwartz said:


> But decaf isn't coff...
> 
> Please pardon my rueful remark about decaffeinated coffee. It is of course a delicious and highly meaningful beverage which, when consumed, makes life so much worth living and has the added benefit of enhancing one's understanding of DAW operation such that no one -- and I mean no one -- should ever disparage consumption of same.
> 
> ...



For any CC's that don't have key commands I have separate screen sets with the piano roll open and the appropriate CC lane visible.


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## angelonyc (Nov 6, 2015)

Why not just do the work in Cubase, then export the midi files into Logic?


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## dgburns (Nov 6, 2015)

AlexRuger said:


> Ugh, didn't mean to offend anyone or try and start a which-DAW-is-better war...
> 
> Anyways...
> 
> ...


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## dgburns (Nov 6, 2015)

I rolled my own lemur setups.I use 3 iPads now lemur on all three.I started putzing around a few years ago and slowly ( and I mean slowly) started learning how to grasp it.It is a work in progress for sure.

So I noticed my division buttons do not change the quantize division you need to set in the piano roll,so my apologies.In my setup I can change the global division as displayed in the transport area but you still need to alter the division in the piano roll.Somehow not a biggie for me.


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## resound (Nov 6, 2015)

Peter Schwartz said:


> *Yes*, you can change the grid division using key commands, and this might make the process a bit less painful. The ones I use the most are Set Next Higher Division Value and Set Next Lower Division Value (do a search for "Division Value" in the key commands window).



This is a game changer, thanks for pointing this out! Time to add some new key commands


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## dgburns (Nov 6, 2015)

resound said:


> This is a game changer, thanks for pointing this out! Time to add some new key commands



Yes grid division but not quantize value as in from 8th to 16th.Seems to me the complaint is that in Cubase you set the quantize value and grid value in one a stroke. yes??

In my case I haven't been able to change both the grid division AND quantize value remotely.In fact I can only change quantize value in the piano roll by mousing over it and selecting a new value.that is when I want to go from 8th notes quantize to 16th note quantize say.

Plesase correct me if I'm wrong.


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## resound (Nov 6, 2015)

dgburns said:


> Yes grid division but not quantize value as in from 8th to 16th.Seems to me the complaint is that in Cubase you set the quantize value and grid value in one a stroke. yes??
> 
> In my case I haven't been able to change both the grid division AND quantize value remotely.In fact I can only change quantize value in the piano roll by mousing over it and selecting a new value.that is when I want to go from 8th notes quantize to 16th note quantize say.
> 
> Plesase correct me if I'm wrong.



There are two key commands that you can use to switch between quantization settings: "Set Quantize Parameter to Next/Previous Value". Maybe not exactly what you are looking for, but it is still a lot quicker than moving over to the Time Quantize menu and selecting the appropriate setting. 

For me, I don't mind having the grid division and quantize settings independent from each other because most of the time I just want to see the 1/4 or 1/8 note grid even if I am quantizing 16ths. I can see how that could be a useful feature though.


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## stonzthro (Nov 6, 2015)

I have these commands set up as the L/R buttons on a Shuttle Pro - very handy!


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## anp27 (Sep 7, 2017)

I know this question is from 2 years ago but this might be helpful for someone new who did a search on the topic..



AlexRuger said:


> 1) Can you map different MIDI transform functions to key commands? In Cubase, I've mapped note-on quantize to Q, note-off quantize to option-Q, set all selected notes to velocity of 100 to option-V, stuff like that.



Logic 10.3 + now lets you assign custom key commands for user MIDI Transform presets. So basically the answer to this question is YES, as long as you have a set of saved MIDI Transform presets. You can do all of those functions mentioned (note-on quantize to Q, note-off quantize to option-Q, set all selected notes to velocity of 100 to option-V) within the MIDI Transform window, save them as presets and subsequently assign them as key commands.


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## samphony (Sep 7, 2017)

anp27 said:


> I know this question is from 2 years ago but this might be helpful for someone new who did a search on the topic..
> 
> 
> 
> Logic 10.3 + now lets you assign custom key commands for user MIDI Transform presets. So basically the answer to this question is YES, as long as you have a set of saved MIDI Transform presets. You can do all of those functions mentioned (note-on quantize to Q, note-off quantize to option-Q, set all selected notes to velocity of 100 to option-V) within the MIDI Transform window, save them as presets and subsequently assign them as key commands.


As soon as they released the update I personally confronted them with a new feature request.
Logic still has no easy way to manage your transform sets per project basis. So you have to be very clear which transform set you have as second or third etc.
But I'm sure this will be improved in future updates.


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## anp27 (Sep 7, 2017)

samphony said:


> Logic still has no easy way to manage your transform sets per project basis. So you have to be very clear which transform set you have as second or third etc.



I agree. It's rather clunky at the moment and quite frustrating. I keep a screenshot note of my User MIDI Transform presets labeled with numbers in Evernote so I can always refer to it in case I forget what is what. I also assign the User preset key commands in a certain way so that it's easy for me to remember them. For example, I've set a key command "Control V" for User Preset 5 (Fix Velocity @100), as if it was just an ordinary key command.


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## nas (Sep 8, 2017)

anp27 said:


> I know this question is from 2 years ago but this might be helpful for someone new who did a search on the topic..
> 
> 
> 
> Logic 10.3 + now lets you assign custom key commands for user MIDI Transform presets. So basically the answer to this question is YES, as long as you have a set of saved MIDI Transform presets. You can do all of those functions mentioned (note-on quantize to Q, note-off quantize to option-Q, set all selected notes to velocity of 100 to option-V) within the MIDI Transform window, save them as presets and subsequently assign them as key commands.



Thanks for this! I've been waiting for them to add this feature and your post seems to at least offer a solution that brings it a few steps closer. 

Cheers


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## anp27 (Sep 8, 2017)

nas said:


> Thanks for this! I've been waiting for them to add this feature and your post seems to at least offer a solution that brings it a few steps closer.



No problem! Good thing I bumped this 2 year old thread then!


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## 88key (Sep 8, 2017)

anp27 said:


> No problem! Good thing I bumped this 2 year old thread then!


Hello anp27. Would you mind sharing how you can create a key command of a transform preset? I've created many transform presets, and assigning key commands to each will definitely save a lot of time! Can't figure out how to do this though. I see "Apply Transform User Preset 1, etc. to selected Events" as an option in the key commands window, but assigning key commands to any of these options doesn't seem to be working for me. Not sure if I'm looking at the right place.


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## anp27 (Sep 8, 2017)

88key said:


> Hello anp27. Would you mind sharing how you can create a key command of a transform preset? I see "Apply Transform User Preset 1, etc. to selected Events" as an option in the key commands window, but assigning key commands to any of these options doesn't seem to be working for me.



That's actually the correct way of doing it, hmmm... I don't know what the problem might be? Remember that Transform sets are tied to each project. You might have to import these sets into your other projects that might not have them for them to work I think?


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## Heinigoldstein (Sep 9, 2017)

Same here. I just can't figure out how it should work. I assign a KC to "Preset 1 to selected Events".....nothing happens . I'm afraid, I don't understand what exactly is ment by "Preset 1/2/3...."
1. preset in the list, 1. user preset, a preset that named 1 ? I feel pretty stupid and can't find in the manual either.


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## clisma (Sep 9, 2017)

These are for USER PRESETS! So in the Transform Window, create a new user preset (even just modifying an existing one), then go to the shortcut assignment window and assign a shortcut to it.

And anp27 is right. Your Transform Window settings need to be imported into every new project. I store mine in a template and get it from there for every new project.


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## anp27 (Sep 9, 2017)

Heinigoldstein said:


> I'm afraid, I don't understand what exactly is meant by "Preset 1/2/3...."1. preset in the list, 1. user preset, a preset that named 1?



The answer is 'User preset'.

You can even turn an existing preset into a User Preset by simply renaming it. A lot of my "user presets" are just the stock ones which I've renamed.. for example, I use the Humanize preset a lot and wanted to be able to assign a key command to it. So all I did was rename it to 'Humanizer', then when Logic prompts you whether you want to Create a new user preset or rename, hit 'Create'. And there's your User Preset 1. As clisma mentioned, you can also take a stock preset and modify the settings. When you do this, Logic will tell you to Create a new user preset since the stock presets are locked and you alter them.

I too have a special template with all of my User MIDI Transform presets from which I import into other projects.


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## Saxer (Sep 9, 2017)

You can also import the transform settings via the "Import Project Settings" menu.


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## Heinigoldstein (Sep 10, 2017)

I´m quite familiar with the transform window actually, but I couldn´t get the KC to work. Thanks a lot everybody. Sometimes I´m lost in the tube world


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## samphony (Sep 10, 2017)

I wish for a coming logic update that we get the opportunity to easily reorganize custom presets.


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## resonate (Sep 11, 2017)

What would be really great : an update that solves (re)recording CC data situation. It could be a setting in the Recording dialog, here:





In the replace menu, we would then choose Replace: (only active CC data), and that would be it. No more extra CC tracks! Best if it replaced only detected CC data (coming from the fader controller,for example) playing back the rest intact. What do you Logic people think? Very similar to Cubase, which has this very setting in the recording preferences.


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