# Music Colleges- Which don't require a Performing instrument?



## Evan Gamble (Oct 19, 2006)

Well I am looking for schools in which to transfer to next fall since the one I was at focused on performance waay too much. And Im trying to find schools in which you do not have to audition on an instrument to get in if you are a composition major.

So far the only ones I have found are the big name expensive ones in which I would HAVE to get a full scholarship to attend, such as..

Yale School of Music
Manhattan School of Music
Juilliard
USC
I think UCLA doesn't need an intrumental audition, not sure.

So I am working on my portfolio to send out coming the end of Nov. and am curious if anyone knows of any other colleges in which i could apply.

Thanks


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## José Herring (Oct 20, 2006)

Paris Conservatoire
Eastman School of Music
Royal Conservatory
University of Michigan
Northwestern

Or you could just skip school study privately and learn from the school of hard knocks. You'd save yourself a ton of money.
:smile:


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## Evan Gamble (Oct 20, 2006)

josejherring @ Fri Oct 20 said:


> Paris Conservatoire
> Eastman School of Music
> Royal Conservatory
> University of Michigan
> ...



Thanks as always Jose..

I think no matter what education you have all good composers have to learn from the school of hard knocks anyways.

Im not too worried about a formal education since I know that studying scores and writing, writing, writing, and did i mention writing? are the only things that really teach you to interpret what you hear in your head and get better.

But a formal legit education can't hurt either, we'll see what happens :wink: .

Im studying privately right now and well, besides learning a bunch of random useful things really whats best is that he helps me not be a lazy bum knowing that he'll be examining my work every week.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 20, 2006)

Berklee doesn't audition people.

Most people would find that school - in any subject, not just music - is the best place to learn, I think. It's not that you can't learn the same techniques on your own, it's the environment you get immersed in when you go to school.

And I also think it's a good idea to get good enough on one instrument to be able to play with other people. There are some good composers who don't play at all, but they're certainly well in the minority.


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## Brian Ralston (Oct 20, 2006)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Oct 20 said:


> And I also think it's a good idea to get good enough on one instrument to be able to play with other people. There are some good composers who don't play at all, but they're certainly well in the minority.



I completely agreee with this and I would even take it one step futher. Of course there are successful composers who do not play an instrument well...but I believe that the ones who have formally studied how to play an instrument are (in general) better at what they do...composing. They have a better understanding of what it is like to write for the instruments. They have a better understanding of how to write for an ensemble. They have a better exposure to classical instruments and know how to properly write for them. 

I don't know how many times even in USC's program where there were a lot of keyboard and guitar players and they would write brass or woodwind parts that were not idiomatic to the instrument. They would give no space in the parts for people to breathe. They would write lyrical lines way too high for too long and not understand why even the professional players could not play their parts well. This all went back to the fact that these people had no experience with ensemble work. They had never sat in an orchestra themselves and experienced the classics from a players perspective. You learn a lot from being in that position. More than you would know. And you will not get those ensemble experiences if you do not formally study an instrument (brass, woodwind, string, keys, percussion). 

I am not bashing keyboard and guitar players at all...I am making a case for formal study of an instrument in some fashion combined with a lot of exposure and experience with playing in an ensemble will make you a better composer. Far more than you know. And those experiences you will only get at one of the programs you are trying to avoid. 

Afterall...you only get one chance at this thing called life...right? While you are young...I would highly recommend you take the opportunity to soak up all of those experiences that you can when it comes to ensemble work and in the end, you will have compositional ideas and the ability to execute them far greater than if you had not studied a performing instrument. 

In my case, I would question anyone who wanted to work for me as an assistant (and who was working to be a composer on their own) who did not have a principal performing instrument and who did not have ensemble performing experience. But...that is just me. 

All the best with your search and your study Evan. :smile:


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## John DeBorde (Oct 20, 2006)

ditto ditto ditto...

i am forever grateful for my experience as a performer while i am composing. i'm always hearing my piano teacher talk about how to approach the phrasing of a line as i compose (and inevitably mock up).

i'm always wishing i had greater proficiency as a performer across all the styles i dabble in, and if i have my way, will get back to formal study of an instrument at some point. tho i definitely remember how irritating it was to have to spend hours practicing the piano when i had composing to do! (and i'm really a guitarist at heart...)

cheers,
john


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## Bruce Richardson (Oct 20, 2006)

Evan Gamble @ Thu Oct 19 said:


> Well I am looking for schools in which to transfer to next fall since the one I was at focused on performance waay too much.



Evan, I would seriously reconsider this. You cannot focus upon performance too much. Almost every shortcoming I hear in people's MIDI/composition work tends to be a lack performance chops. Sometimes it's direct--clumsy playing. Most of the time it's more insidious; a musical reflection of a lack of performing experience. The former can be cured. The latter, not so much.

You might meet a very, very few decent composers who don't play something well, but not many.

Right now you are 19. You have your entire educational AND professional career ahead of you. Trust me when I say that you will profoundly regret it if you do not learn to perform on a professional level, and then actually DO some performing on that level.

It is easy to get a skewed perspective when reading these forums. First, there are a lot of people on them who don't write OR perform at a professional level. Writing at a professional level doesn't mean making an impressive MIDI mockup. It means being able to sustain a career and a living, being able to musically turn on a dime, and being capable of communicating with all levels of collaborators. Also, most of the people you'll meet on these forums who are at a comfortable place in their writing careers are significantly older than you, and have had a lifetime of varied experience to draw upon.

YOUR lifetime of varied experience is in its infancy at age 19. Please understand that I am not knocking your youth. Rather, I am pointing out to you that the path you are considering is tantamount to squandering a portion of it. Trust me on this. Rather than looking to escape what you're considering to be a distraction, instead, embrace it and conquer it.

I guarantee you that if you apply yourself and become a professional-grade player, then you will be grateful for the rest of your life for what it brings to your capabilities as a composer.

And I will equally guarantee you something else: If you decide to give up on learning to play on that level...print this email and file it away. Pull it out when you're 50. I'll be dead by then. But I have somthing to say....

I told you so.


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## Hans Adamson (Oct 20, 2006)

Royal College of Music in Stockholm - http://www.kmh.se/

No fees.


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## spoon (Oct 20, 2006)

o.k.
these were really tough words... :cry: 

So, I step into that conversation asking something that bothers me for years.
I play for 14 years guitar - I am 24 now - (took part in a one year professional programm for electric guitar) and make a living teaching it.

But...I´ve got a 88 keys masterkeyboard and whenever I play on it...it screams on me in pain "you idiot...don´t hurt me, what the..."  

Well, I can build lots of chords on the piano, now the basic stuff, but my left/right hand playing sucks. (sorry, four letter word)

I need it for melody, and to see on the horizontal line in which register I´m in.

but is this enough to arrange/orchestrate ... to build ... to create?

:?: 

Ah, I wish my parents took me to piano class at the age of four ... (whenever I ask my son (4 years old)..."wanna play piano or violin?" he looks at me and simply says: Dad, can I get my car back...brumm...brumm") :lol: 

Oh, way tooooooo much told...sorry.


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## spoon (Oct 20, 2006)




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## Bruce Richardson (Oct 20, 2006)

Evan Gamble @ Fri Oct 20 said:


> Im not too worried about a formal education since I know that studying scores and writing, writing, writing, and did i mention writing? are the only things that really teach you to interpret what you hear in your head and get better.



I want to respond specifically to this thought.

Studying scores and practicing your writing will be meaningless if you don't gain the ensemble experience. Brian Ralston hit on this point, and I don't have anything to add to his excellent commeòŽ[   H$!Ž[   H$"Ž[   H$#Ž[   H$$Ž[   H$%Ž[   H$&Ž[   H$'Ž[   H$(Ž[   H$)Ž[   H$*Ž[   H$+Ž[   H$,Ž[   H$-Ž[   H$.Ž[   H$/Ž[   H$0Ž[   H$1Ž\   H$2Ž\   H$3Ž\   H$4Ž\   H$5Ž\   H$6Ž\   H$7Ž\   H$8Ž\   H$9Ž\   H$:Ž\   H$;Ž\   H$<Ž\   H$=Ž\   H$>Ž\   H$?Ž\   [email protected]Ž\   H$AŽ\   H$BŽ\   H$CŽ\   H$DŽ\   H$EŽ\   H$FŽ\   H$GŽ\   H$HŽ\   H$IŽ\   H$JŽ\   H$KŽ\   H$LŽ\   H$MŽ]   H$NŽ]   H$OŽ]   H$PŽ]   H$QŽ]   H$RŽ]   H$SŽ]   H$TŽ]   H$UŽ]   H$VŽ]   H$WŽ^   H$XŽ^   H$YŽ^   H$ZŽ^   H$[Ž^   H$\Ž^   H$]Ž^   H$^Ž^   H$_Ž_   H$`Ž_   H$aŽ_   H$bŽ_   H$cŽ_   H$dŽ_   H$eŽ_   H$fŽ_   H$gŽ_   H$hŽ_   H$iŽ_   H$jŽ_   H$kŽ_   H$lŽ_   H$mŽ_   H$nŽ_   H$oŽ_   H$pŽ_   H$qŽ_   H$rŽ_   H$sŽ_   H$tŽ_   H$uŽ_   H$vŽ_   H$wŽ_   H$xŽ_   H$yŽ_   H$zŽ_   H${Ž_   H$|Ž_   H$}Ž_   H$~Ž_   H$Ž_   H$€Ž_   H$Ž_   H$‚Ž_   H$ƒŽ_   H$„Ž_   H$…Ž_   H$†Ž_   H$‡Ž_   H$ˆŽ_   H$‰Ž_   H$ŠŽ_   H$‹Ž_   H$ŒŽ_   H$Ž_   H$ŽŽ_   H$Ž_   H$              òŽ_   H$’Ž_   H$“Ž_   H$”Ž_   H$•Ž_   H$–Ž_   H$—Ž_   H$˜Ž_   H$™Ž_   H$šŽ_   H$›Ž`   H$œŽ`   H$Ž`   H$ž


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## Bruce Richardson (Oct 20, 2006)

It's funny, nothing stirs me up as much as discussing education. It turns me into a ravng lunatic.

Daryl, what you are saying is so true. Even in college ensembles, you are going to plow through so much literature, first hand. You'd study scores for decades to match the experience you get even in four years of playing in college ensembles. Your point is well taken and agreed about the value of any level of ensemble. You learn what ensemble cleaning and balance is. You have a physical as well as intellectual relationship with music. As the boys from Brooklyn say, "One hand washes the other."


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## rgames (Mar 10, 2007)

I'm surprised to find out that the schools mentioned here don't require any proficiency on an instrument. Does anybody know what percentage of the student population at, e.g., Juilliard has no performance chops?

Whether or not you need performance experience depends a lot on the medium you're going after: if you're all sample- and/or studio-based, then it doesn't matter so much. You can tweak the faders and EQ to bring out the solo low-register flute on top of a full orchestra. In a performing situation, however, it would never work, and spending years sitting through rehearsals for those performances would help you to realize that fact.

The reason you need to spend time in the rehearsals (and not just the performances) is that's where these problems are addressed. By the time you hear it at the performance, it's been fixed. And being present for the fixing, whether it's on your part or not, is crucial to gain an understanding of how it all goes together. Watching conductors reduce parts so that melody lines can be heard, hearing brass players lament extended regions in the upper registers, and watching reed players try to figure out the best way to fake articulated 16th notes at 180 bpm all provide better insight than what can be gained in a classroom. Of course, with samples, none of these issues arise .

90% of my gigs are for performing (clarinet), not composing, but I have no problem creating compositions and arrangements based on 20+ years of sitting in orchestras. I have an orchestration text as a reference but 95% of my orchestrating is done on the basis of playing experience. After it's all done I check against the text in regions where I'm uncertain, but that doesn't take much time (though I still miss a few - just last week I got an alto sax part back because it was too low...).

So, in summary, if you're doing anything other than live music, then performance experience doesn't matter so much. But if you intend to write music for live performances then I really think you need some experience rehearsing and performing live music.

Best,

rgames


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 10, 2007)

FWIW Berklee did require a level of instrumental proficiency when I was there (a long time ago). To graduate you had to reach "level 7," which meant you were good enough to play in pretty poor ensembles. That was by the time you were finished - you only needed a couple of years' lessons (or several years playing in bands) to get in at the beginning. To me that's not a totally bad thing, because it gives people a chance to develop what they have even if they don't end up being top-flight players; the really poor people tended to drop out in a hurry.

What Berklee didn't have was a basic piano requirement. Depending on what you do, not having any keyboard skills at all could be a real drag.


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## Evan Gamble (Mar 10, 2007)

Well if anyone is curious- I just got back from some interviews at Juilliard this week. Was really cool meeting John Corigliano. We chatted alot about Elliot (his former student) and many general ideas of both music and film. Really cool guy. 

Oh and I got him to sign my 1st Symphony score of his and he said "hope to see you next season"-so thats a goood sign i think.

Also talked to Robert Beaser who is good friends with Thomas Newman and he had alot of interesting inside info to say about Elfman's concert piece. hehe.


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## JohnnyMarks (Mar 10, 2007)

I suggest you visit a local university composition department faculty recital or two: these are the kind of people you'd be studying with, this is the kind of music they'd be making.

Then run (screaming) to Berklee.  I would if I had it to do again. 

Academic composition is an odd little world unto itself, with a very academic approach to composition. If you're on this forum, you'll think these people are nuts. 

Actually they're nice people. But it is a very specialized place, and if you're going into one of those departments I'd look carefully at who in particular you'd be studying with, not mainly the overall program.


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## Evan Gamble (Mar 10, 2007)

JohnnyMarks @ Sat Mar 10 said:


> I suggest you visit a local university composition department faculty recital or two: these are the kind of people you'd be studying with, this is the kind of music they'd be making.
> 
> Then run (screaming) to Berklee.  I would if I had it to do again.
> 
> ...



Hehe I'm Pretty familiar with the concert realm-it's definietly a different world, But one that actually appeals to me alot more than Berklee. I don't want to be the next Zimmer or Elfman. :wink: (though I do enjoy their music)

I worship Corigliano 0oD


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## JohnnyMarks (Mar 10, 2007)

Oh, and Evan, don't discount UCLA. Ian Krouse (whom I studied with at USC and runs the UCLA department last I checked) is absolutely superb.


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