# New String Library



## Tanuj Tiku (Mar 8, 2014)

I need some feedback on some string libraries because I am looking to buy a new one.

In a nutshell, as some of you may know I am a long time VSL user. I really like them and they have served me well for almost 10 years now. I started with Horizon series and while they are great, I have started getting bored with the same sound. 

I hope this thread can be a bit focused. I have already heard demos of the following:

1. Berlin Strings
2. Mural/Sable
3. Cinestrings
4. Hollywood Strings
5. LASS

From the lot, so far I like Berlin Strings the best. It has a orchestral stage sound but it is some what in the middle. Spitfire, generally has a little too much for my taste. I recently bought Albion II and III. They are amazing samples and I am seriously keeping Mural or Sable in mind. I seem to like Sable better than Mural even though I understand that they are different sets. 

LASS can do some good things but it seems to have too much character for my taste. It has even be layered on top of my music by other producers sometimes to good effect.

Hollywood Strings - Well, some of it sounds good but I am not a huge fan of Play and this will be a tough choice moving from both VSL and Kontakt. 

I am still going to use VSL a lot I think. Its not a good bye to them. Just an addition to the sound palette. 

Cinestrings sounded decent too. And I think sound stage wise, it may have been recorded in a similar space as Berlin Strings compared to a larger more warmer sound on Spitfire.

Any user feedback will be greatly appreciated.

As of now, I am leaning toward Berlin Strings. I think it sounds really nice and I have been told that it responds to programming very well. I like to tweak things naturally because of the amazing flexibility with VSL samples and VI PRO 2.

No flame wars please. All of the libraries have their strengths. And there will be no winner in this. Just a personal choice. 

For anything negative I might say about any library through the course of this thread, please forgive me for that. It is not a reflection of the quality of that library as such. Make your own opinions! It is just my personal opinion and as I said all of these libraries are really good for what they can do. I have already heard their demos.

Perhaps, if some of you want to paste other demos which showcase any library really well - go ahead! 

I have not heard ALL of the demos on their websites. And there might be other fantastic user demos.


Tanuj.


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## AC986 (Mar 8, 2014)

You've sort of done this a few times Tanuj.

I mean at least to me it's impossible to answer. What kind of music are you doing? And numerous other questions.

Put up an example of an absolutely typical track. If you can't do that, then there is not going to be a typical answer or string library. :wink:


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## muk (Mar 8, 2014)

Depends on what you write really.
You haven't listed Cinematic Strings 2. Their strengths lie in the bigger, cinematic sound. They are easy to use and sound wonderful out of the box, so that's a huge advantage if you need fast results. Would complement the VSL range nicely, I think. The set of articulations is not as comprehensive as in other libraries though. But again, depends on what you need.


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## Marius Masalar (Mar 8, 2014)

Tanuj,

From what I gather, you and I have similar musical sensibilities, so I'll chime in.

I own the latter two of the list you put up (plus Cinematic Strings 2 and the Standard VSL Orchestral Strings bundle) and have devised various blends to suit different purposes. I am basically happy with my strings.

But...if I were string-less today and looking to buy a single library, it would almost certainly be Berlin Strings for exactly the reason you mentioned. In fact I'm sorely tempted to get them anyway, but I can't justify another string library among the plentiful collection I've already got, and selling old ones is a tough prospect since I need to maintain backward compatibility for older cues. Funny how we get trapped by samples, eh?

Anyhow, for what it's worth, Berlin Strings would be my pick for one library that supplements your VSL collection. And I say that partly because of the promise of solo strings emerging from the same amazing production team as well.

Tough call. I'll be curious to see what you end up with!


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## Tanuj Tiku (Mar 8, 2014)

Thanks for posting Marius!

I agree with you in that Berlin Strings sounds like a really good option. It may even complement VSL very well. So far it is also my top choice.

Adrian,

I don't write just one type of music with orchestral samples. I mean, VSL has been tremendously flexible for me. I suppose, I am looking at a string library that is a complete basic set. I do not generally like the idea of owning too many libraries to do different things. 

Here is a selection of my music which is mostly created using VSL. 

Black and White: https://soundcloud.com/tanujtiku/black-and-white (Piano and Solo Violin not from VSL)

The Fallen: https://soundcloud.com/tanujtiku/the-fallen

Way Out II: https://soundcloud.com/tanujtiku/way-out-ii (Spitfire Solo Strings used sparingly)

T-A-C: https://soundcloud.com/tanujtiku/t-a-c (VSL and OSR for opening fast measured tremelos and some other stuff + Spitfire Solo Strings in the end)

Black and White and Way Out II are almost completely VSL. The Fallen has a hint of Spitfire. 

I could post more music but this should give a general idea about what I have been doing till now.


Thanks for replying guys!


Tanuj


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## J.f.brown 3 (Mar 8, 2014)

I would check out cinematic strings 2. Im about to get it myself. "The fallen" sounds awesome, friend.


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## AC986 (Mar 8, 2014)

Well they all sound good. You could probably use anything that's out there. It's impossible to get a single library judgement from anyone.

Therefore I would just get whatever you 'want' to get and make it work.


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## Peter Alexander (Mar 8, 2014)

LASS should blend more easily with VSL.


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## Ron Verboom (Mar 9, 2014)

I'm also looking for a new strings library. Those demo's on their site from Cinematic Strings 2 sound amazing, i love the thickness of the strings. It's sounding great straight out of the box as muk said and for a beginner like me with not a lot of money it is not that expensive also. I think i will buy one. Only a bit worried about the minimum system requirements (quad core cpu), i'm working on an older iMac with dual core cpu, i really hope that would also work.


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## Dracarys (Mar 9, 2014)

Berlin or Mural.

HW strings are great, but you'll need platinum because the mid mics in gold make everything sound undefined, great for layering however. Also, it's a hit or miss for people using HW strings, I have only gold streaming from SSD and I have terrible issues, my specs are more than sufficient. 

I've heard demos of cinesamples and I'm not that impressed, very synthy out of the box.

Mural and Berlin sound great, I'd go for those.


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## Vin (Mar 9, 2014)

Another vote for Cinematic Strings 2. Beautiful tone and ease of use, almost too easy to use.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Mar 9, 2014)

Thank you all for posting here.

In the end it's going to be Berlin Strings for me!

Though I will have to wait for a month to use them as current projects must finish first with existing libraries.


Tanuj.


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## Lawson. (Mar 9, 2014)

I personally love HS. If you're not getting that, my next option would be Berlin or Mural; they both sound great IMO. Still, HS has such a nice sound once you can MIDI-program it well.


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## Casiquire (Mar 9, 2014)

I agree with Peter, LASS is good for the VSL workflow. If you customize Vienna Instruments at all, then you'll have an idea of how to run the ARC and you'll be able to match much of LASS to a similar workflow as VSL. The divisi sections are something that only Dimension Strings from VSL can offer so if you don't own DS that would be a welcome addition. LASS is much less "clean" than VSL and would add a lot of expression to the sound, and you can use VSL to blend and tighten it up if need be.


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## artur (Mar 22, 2014)

can anyone compare the sound of Berlin Strings to HS ? 
is this equally good to be used for epic tracks ?
or just another library with nice new features but still nothing really beats the HS sound from 2010?


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## Stiltzkin (Mar 22, 2014)

https://soundcloud.com/ryle-44/the-hobbit-revisited

Not my track, just one I found while looking for some demos - but it's a damn fine example of Berlin Strings in action.

I don't have Berlin Strings yet, I do have pretty much all the others though. This is definitely turning my eye towards Berlin Strings soon...


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## Mahlon (Mar 22, 2014)

artur @ Sat Mar 22 said:


> can anyone compare the sound of Berlin Strings to HS ?
> is this equally good to be used for epic tracks ?
> or just another library with nice new features but still nothing really beats the HS sound from 2010?



Imo, they are pretty different. Berlin Strings has smaller sections. It sounds more up front than HS, closer and more detailed. But, BS can sound big by layering, which is one of it's strengths. Violins 2 Sustain Immediate patches really fill out Violins 1 Sustain Immediate when playing in unison. same goes for the Legatos. It may have to do with the release trails on Violins 2. You can get a big sound.

About Violins 1 and 2:


Legato is smooth and playable (I'm only using the Romantic vibrato so far). In the upper registers of the Violins, you get a nice pronounced vibrato which can help sell it. The Adaptive Legato works well (though I'm not a fan of these kinds of automatic things). The first note of a legato phrase (or note that is not connected with a note before it) attack can be controlled by velocity and is a helpful, well working feature.

To me, the Violins sustains around C5 (Steinberg) can get a wee stretched and nasally, but I haven't EQed them yet.

The long and short portatos are great for layering or by themselves, and the short portato in particular is one of the most playable patches in the library.

The Sustain Expressive Dynamic short and long have emphasized attacks and lend some vibrato detail when layered. again in the upper registers where it's needed. This works very well, sounds great.

The True Dynamic patches can breath some life into a line -- similar to 8dio's approach. Very good addition to the library imo. I just slide them around until the note's beginning matches when I need the note to begin because they are a little slow to start. Well they are dynamic after all!

I won't comment on the repetition shorts, double or triple strokes, hook trems or hook trills; haven't used them much yet. The other shorts (staccato, spiccato, spiccaitissimo, staccato bold and Martele) are all good and more along the lines of LASS, which to me means very present, even a bit noisy. They're not as smooth as HS. However, when different sections play/layer with each other, the resulting sound evens out. How can I say? the shorts are just rougher in character than HS. More bite in the sound.

Pre-recorded runs sound like what they are. Haven't compared the Legato Playable Runs yet. Blurred Staccatos, etc. are a good idea, but experimented yet.

Trems work. Not my favorite tremolos, though.

I'd rather the trills just be two separate patches than the combined one. But it sounds good.

Pizzicato is light and not too pronounced. A little weak imo. I'd like more variation from top to bottom velocity. i. e. Hard strike should really give a good pluck. Light strike should be barely there. And it should be smooth across the board.

All of the above pretty much goes for Violas, Celli and Basses, too. The Violas seem even more playable to me than the Violins. And the Celli sound the best out of the whole bunch. The Celli portatos are killer. The basses? Honestly, I like HS Basses a wee bit better. BS Legato Bass is really good, though.

All in all, Orchestral Tools provides so many patches which can be layered in many, many ways to get the phrasing you want out of a line. I think that's it's real strength. You can create a very convincing "Frankenstein" line, or Frankenlein if you will, and you won't pull your hair out, and it will have lots of emotion, push and pull to it. Even without much CC data, which by they way, the library responds to very well, also.

There are a couple downsides with the current version of BS, though. These are being addressed so we're told. Various notes have glitches or strange behavior, and there are some artifact sounds floating around some samples. The main error to me though is the absence of CC11 controlling volume. I don't see how this got out the door, but then I don't know the logistic nightmare it must be to bring a sample library to the table. I have confidence that OT will fix any inconsistencies in the library.

All that said, you asked how it compares to HS. Well, the HS sound is hard to beat. I still think it's the overall best sounding string library. But BS doesn't really need to beat it. They are fairly different. BS really sings in context and can sound pretty much as big as you want.

And did I mention that BS with a tiny bit of layering from HS makes me queazy with fringerboard goodness? The smooth, fuzziness of HS compliments BS so well. Fattens it up and tames it. Truly lush.

I know, I know, I should shut up and provide some examples. Until then, I hope the above is of some use to you. o-[][]-o 

Mahlon


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## Diffusor (Mar 22, 2014)

Berlin String sounds more "hollywood" to me than Hollywood Strings honestly. HS is "bigger" though. And the playability is better with Berlin imo. HS always seemed real "stiff" to me.


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 22, 2014)

Diffusor @ Sat Mar 22 said:


> Berlin String sounds more "hollywood" to me than Hollywood Strings honestly. HS is "bigger" though. And the playability is better with Berlin imo. HS always seemed real "stiff" to me.



It depends on what you think of with "Hollywood". When I think "Hollywood" I think "lush" and HS sounds more lush than Berlin Strings, although Berlin Strings is a great sounding library. The only other library that is as lush as HS IMHO is Cinematic Strings II, another great library, thought more limited in scope.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Mar 22, 2014)

Why be obsessed with the typical (now sort of vanishing and changing quickly) Hollywood sound?

There are a few good sample libraries and probably each one of them have their own strengths. 

I agree with Jay in that its subjective what you really call the Hollywood sound. If I say that VSL sounds very lush as well over here then I am probably going to be murdered. 

I think we are probably in a time when composers have their own sound more than Hollywood as a collective because scores are not that typical always. Hans Zimmer certainly has a sound that he has crafted over the years and it suddenly becomes the Hollywood sound. But it really is just his sound. That everybody wants to sound like him right now is a different topic. 

Similarly I think because John Williams has lived with the orchestra in its more traditional format so that becomes his sound. And he is just a genius, probably from an alien planet. 

Similarly Thomas Newmann has his own thing and so many others.

I would generally like to get a library that is sort of neutral in its character as far as possible without loosing any general musicality. This is because I do not have the resources to create a custom library right now. And I cannot be stuck with an over committed idea. Because then I am always sounding like that. 

If you are writing music for movies then you will know how difficult it is to be original with your sonic landscape because everybody has got these libraries and I find the more committed they are to a very specific thing, the less chance I have to make it my own. This is certainly true on a scripting level as well. 

Besides, there is one more important thing than just the sound of it all. Its the music, the notes. We forget that sometimes. Its the idea. 

In any case, where is the Golden Age Hollywood sound anymore? Very few people still write in that fashion. 

I think boxing libraries into categories too seriously can even further damage its true potential. 

I have heard some good examples of almost all the leading string libraries and some people have figured out a way to make them work. That is why you will hear sometimes that Hollywood Strings is not that great but also at the same time you will find people who use it really well. Same thing with VSL or LASS etc.

In the end, there is no other way to really know unless you spend some time with these libraries. 

I look at VSL and I see great flexibility and a chance to sculpt your sound from the ground up. Others see it as a nightmare, dead sounding, confusing and a has been so to speak.

In any case, I have just finished downloading Berlin Strings and I will keep you guys posted on what I think about it on a first attempt. If anyone is interested to know that is 


Tanuj.


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## emid (Mar 22, 2014)

vibrato @ Sat Mar 22 said:


> In any case, I have just finished downloading Berlin Strings and I will keep you guys posted on what I think about it on a first attempt. If anyone is interested to know that is



Sure, very much looking forward to it.


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## Stiltzkin (Mar 23, 2014)

I'm very much looking forward to hearing how it is! The play-ability and ease of use of a library is always my no.1 concern, considering how the sound is personal taste.

I'm also really interested in hearing how the dynamic bowings release trigger sounds, that was a great idea imo


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## blougui (Mar 23, 2014)

Hi tanuj, looking forward to hearing your music 

- Erik


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## Diffusor (Mar 23, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Mar 22 said:


> Diffusor @ Sat Mar 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Berlin String sounds more "hollywood" to me than Hollywood Strings honestly. HS is "bigger" though. And the playability is better with Berlin imo. HS always seemed real "stiff" to me.
> ...



One man's lush is another man's mud.


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 23, 2014)

Everyone likes what they like, but when HS sounds muddy, it is the user's fault, not the library's.

I honestly consider that to be empirically true, not a matter of opinion.


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## Daryl (Mar 23, 2014)

Diffusor @ Sun Mar 23 said:


> One man's lush is another man's mud.


I would have said one man's lush is another man's synthetic, but I think we're in agreement with the sentiment that it is all about different tastes.

D


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Mar 23, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Mar 23 said:


> Everyone likes what they like, but when HS sounds muddy, it is the user's fault, not the library's.
> 
> I honestly consider that to be empirically true, not a matter of opinion.



+1 HS is not muddy.


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 23, 2014)

Daryl @ Sun Mar 23 said:


> Diffusor @ Sun Mar 23 said:
> 
> 
> > One man's lush is another man's mud.
> ...



Everyone likes what they like, but when HS sounds synthetic, it is the user's fault, not the library's. 

I honestly consider that to be empirically true, not a matter of opinion.


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## dryano (Mar 23, 2014)

The HS violins are muddy, when we define muddy as "less detailed". The HS cellos on the other hand are not at all muddy. They are the most expressive and powerful sounding celli in the sampling world, imho.

Berlin Strings can sound big and epic. I think even the official demos can prove this. But first and formost, I think Berlin Strings are very energetic, rough and natural sounding. I am still impressed, when I listen to the Aases Death demo. Yes... the expression and phrasing is not 100% convincing. But that divisi FF passage... I've not heard something like this with other libraries. Hopefully OT will also record larger sized string sections with their approach.


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 23, 2014)

If you load the mid or close mics of the HS violins there is no way anyone who knows what violins sound like on a Los Angeles scoring stage would describe them as muddy, with any meaning of the word.


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## dryano (Mar 23, 2014)

They still sound less detailed or "muddy" if you will, even on the Close mics. There is a simple reason for that: The many layers. The 3-layer or 6-layer patches for example Sound much better than the powerful or 12-layer patches. Thats no only a Problem of HS. Most libraries with extensive crossfading have that issue. With violins it seems to be the biggest issue, because they are the biggest section and often the most audible.

To get a detailed expressive sound with the HS violins, one has to layer a solo Instrument or very small section on top. When you listen to live recorded scores, you can always hear some single instruments wihthin the section. Maybe they do a little bit more vibrato or play a little bit louder on some notes. The HS violins sound plain and smooth all the time. Thats not a general downside of the library. But to claim the HS violins sound like the strings of a live recorded soundtrack... I haven't heard one. Show me!


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 23, 2014)

dryano @ Sun Mar 23 said:


> They still sound less detailed or "muddy" if you will, even on the Close mics. There is a simple reason for that: The many layers. The 3-layer or 6-layer patches for example Sound much better than the powerful or 12-layer patches. Thats no only a Problem of HS. Most libraries with extensive crossfading have that issue. With violins it seems to be the biggest issue, because they are the biggest section and often the most audible.
> 
> To get a detailed expressive sound with the HS violins, one has to layer a solo Instrument or very small section on top. When you listen to live recorded scores, you can always hear some single instruments wihthin the section. Maybe they do a little bit more vibrato or play a little bit louder on some notes. The HS violins sound plain and smooth all the time. Thats not a general downside of the library. But to claim the HS violins sound like the strings of a live recorded soundtrack... I haven't heard one. Show me!



Don't feel the need to. In the words of Paul Simon, "I know what I know, I said what I said. "


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## Lawson. (Mar 23, 2014)

Hollywood Strings is NOT muddy. And yes, I agree that the celli are AMAZING.

[flash width=450 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F139616435&secret_url=false[/flash]

(It's not finished yet but I wanted to have a piece to back my side of the argument :D)


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## AC986 (Mar 24, 2014)

One man's lush is another man's drunk.

Whaaaaa?

Carry on.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Mar 25, 2014)

Here are my initial thoughts about Berlin Strings.

Over all, the library has great potential. The legatos on both Violins and Celli in slower passages sound very good. They are very fluid and playable. 

They are very musical. 

There are some interesting new patches but I need to spend more time with them. The attack feature on the legatos are a very good idea.

Berlin Strings is also the first library since VSL I think that responds very well to the Mod Wheel. This has been done very nicely. The dynamic range is quite good and I saw an option to increase this in some patches as well. Very cool!

I am not sure about the Agile legato as it cuts off the reverb a bit and shifting quickly between modes can sound unmusical sometimes. 

I understand this is a compromise for the reverb not to get too over bearing and as I have been told by OT not to overload the sampler. It is currently not possible to do anything about this. This is a problem in most baked-in reverb libraries that I have used or tried. 

Fast runs legato - not sure again, need to spend more time. 

Activating close mics does bring a really nice direct sound. The high violins and generally the celli sound quite good with close mics on. 

The shorts sound very different to any other library. It is not over the top but very grounded. But I am not in love with them currently. Most of them are not tight enough for my taste. They sound dull and I am not sure if the 24RR is really helping. I have not tried all the patches yet.

Pizzicato and Tremelo - I have heard better but I think with the correct mic blend, I can get it to do what I want. They do sound nice over all.

I havent tried the Violas yet. 

There are however some bugs with this release. Not to take anything away from OT and their hard work. I think with the 1.5 update coming very soon and these issues will be ironed out as I have been informed by OT. 

There are some sticky notes problem in legato patches and the shorts are being improved. Even the legatos will be redone to an extent with this new release. Some noise issues are also present at this time. 

The library is very organic and musical over all. Which is what I liked about it. But the patches need work once again to make them more consistent. 

One note about this library - It was pretty much not possible for me to use it on a 7200 RPM drive. The patches took ages to load. I checked my hard drive speeds and it was de-fragmented. I got in touch with OT and they recommend SSD's. They have also said that I was facing longer than usual load times compared to other customers. 

For example, a legato patch was taking 3 minutes to load every single time. Even smaller patches took way too long compared to other libraries. 

But I moved them to an SSD and they work just fine. 

I want to say that this may be limited to my system although I have not been able to find any faults on my machine and all other libraries and hard drive behaviour is consistent and performing very well. 

So, try it on a normal drive if you do not have an SSD. It may work better than it does on my system for whatever reasons I do not have the time to get into it. I installed a new SSD and it works anyway.

I am very much looking forward to the update and I think Berlin Strings can be a very serious library if the issues are worked out. 

I have not tried all the patches yet and there are some very nice things in the list. 

In the coming weeks, I will post something here made from Berlin Strings. There are already many demos but I will just post it anyway if anyone wants to hear it. 


Tanuj.


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## Daryl (Mar 27, 2014)

Tanuj, I'm sorry to hear that you are not having a good experience with Berlin Strings. Neither am I. It seems to be a very shoddy release. Out of tune, badly edited, scripting problems, including mic positions randomly dropping out, incorrect mapping, often terrible looping, noisy releases, the list seems endless.

I was going to apply for a refund, but then checked the EULA; apparently I can only get a refund if I am not a professional. So being a professional means that I can afford to chuck away £800 on a fairly useless product? Sheesh...! My first OT product, and my last, I'm afraid. :cry: 

D


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## olajideparis (Mar 27, 2014)

That's really unfortunate man. Thanks for sharing your experience with the rest of us to help spare us from uncertain disappointment/buyers remorse.


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## Daryl (Mar 27, 2014)

olajideparis @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> That's really unfortunate man. Thanks for sharing your experience with the rest of us to help spare us from uncertain disappointment/buyers remorse.


Don't get me wrong. Apart from a few basic conceptual mistakes, I'm sure that this library could be improved, but firstly OT would have to realise and accept that there are severe problems with it, and secondly they would need the skills to fix them. Having released the product in this state, I'm not convinced that either of those things are going to happen.

However, if and when the next update comes out, I will report back as to whether or not the issues have been sorted out.

D


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## AC986 (Mar 27, 2014)

Daryl @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> It seems to be a very shoddy release. Out of tune, badly edited, scripting problems, including mic positions randomly dropping out, incorrect mapping, often terrible looping, noisy releases, the list seems endless.
> 
> So being a professional means that I can afford to chuck away £800 on a fairly useless product? Sheesh...! My first OT product, and my last, I'm afraid. :cry:
> 
> D



I was surprised you went for it Daryl. Really am. I looked at it and read reports. Nah. No chance of that at all. Can't afford to make those expensive mistakes here unfortunately.

This is always the trouble with these sort of questions about what's best. You just can't give advice about this stuff I don't think. You can say, yes, I have it and it's great. But that may not work for 90% of others. I have very few of these string libraries and my view is, if you can't make any of it work, then it's highly likely nothing else will.

Without any kind of slant on this, Spitfire always comes across as the most reliable when it comes solving issues and getting a very good workable sound. But again, it's not going to suit everyone.

£800. Sorry to hear that Daryl. Not at all funny.


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## Stephen Rees (Mar 27, 2014)

@Daryl - Can you say what you were/are looking for from Berlin Strings that you aren't able to get from VSL?


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## Daryl (Mar 27, 2014)

adriancook @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> I was surprised you went for it Daryl. Really am. I looked at it and read reports. Nah. No chance of that at all. Can't afford to make those expense mistakes here unfortunately.


I just thought that I'd try something new, as I'm a bit bored with VSL Strings. Not that it matters, as I always record anyway, but it seemed promising.

D


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## Stephen Rees (Mar 27, 2014)

Thanks Daryl.


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## Daryl (Mar 27, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> @Daryl - Can you say what you were/are looking for from Berlin Strings that you aren't able to get from VSL?


I liked the change of position sounds, not realising that it was the only option and you couldn't effectively get rid of it without other problems rearing their ugly heads. I was also looking for a different sound and style of playing from what I already have.

However, my main expectation of a String library is always based on the legato/cantabile quality, as for my music, that sort of thing is the backbone. If that doesn't work, it is not likely to get use in my studio.

D


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## AC986 (Mar 27, 2014)

Just finished editing my post Daryl. This is the problem with spelling and reading issues. :D 

Yes I can understand we all want to get something different and I totally agree with your premise. For me, not writing anything as complicated as you do, it's all about getting it done with a reasonably good sound and trying to make money. If there's even the slightest doubt about a library, especially strings these days, I just don't want to know anymore.


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## Daryl (Mar 27, 2014)

adriancook @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> Yes I can understand we all want to get something different and I totally agree with your premise. For me, not writing anything as complicated as you do, it's all about getting it done with a reasonably good sound and trying to make money. If there's even the slightest doubt about a library, especially strings these days, I just don't want to know anymore.


Having said all that, I have never made a String library, so I might just have expectations that aren't realistic. I do have a couple of days of legato sample recordings on my hard drive that I haven't had time to sort out, so at some point I'll be having a go at all of this myself, and then I'll know first hand how difficult it is to get right. :wink: 

D


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## muk (Mar 27, 2014)

It's a bit surprising for me that Dimension Strings aren't discussed more over here. When strings are mentioned it always seems to be either Berlin Strings or Mural. The Berlin Strings demos didn't awe me that much personally, and Mural is bigger than I'd want my strings to be.
So I recently bought Dimension Strings, and it's a totally awesome library. It takes a day or two to set up the way you like, but after that it's very easy to use. And it's extremely flexible, has gorgeous legato, and all articulations you'd possibly need.


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## Daryl (Mar 27, 2014)

muk @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> It's a bit surprising for me that Dimension Strings aren't discussed more over here. When strings are mentioned it always seems to be either Berlin Strings or Mural. The Berlin Strings demos didn't awe me that much personally, and Mural is bigger than I'd want my strings to be.
> So I recently bought Dimension Strings, and it's a totally awesome library. It takes a day or two to set up the way you like, but after that it's very easy to use. And it's extremely flexible, has gorgeous legato, and all articulations you'd possibly need.


Dimension Strings have their uses, but I find that the legato is not up to the standards of the rest of the VSL Collections. Rather lumpy, IMO. However, layered with other VSL it serves a useful purpose, in that one can get that vibrancy that doesn't happen when everyone plays exactly in tune and at the same time, and of course one can automate how much, if any, of this random behaviour one wants.

D


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## AC986 (Mar 27, 2014)

Daryl @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> Having said all that, I have never made a String library, so I might just have expectations that aren't realistic. I do have a couple of days of legato sample recordings on my hard drive that I haven't had time to sort out, so at some point I'll be having a go at all of this myself, and then I'll know first hand how difficult it is to get right. :wink:
> 
> D



Well if you can get the legatos to operate better than VSL's, which are arguably still the best implementation of legato, then I think you'll be in business.

What about Dimension Strings though. I don't have them, But the recent demo from Saxer I thought was a really good sound. What puts me off them is the setup and any peripheral stuff necessary, like MIR. In my case, I will stick with Sable and anything bigger, sound wise, goes to Mural, VSL or Cinematic Strings. With any required additions from from Symphobia.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Mar 27, 2014)

Daryl,


After spending some more time with the library, I can confirm that there are several issues with it. 

In many cases, I am unable to use it properly. Its not edited and scripted properly. Which is the biggest problem.

Why they released it in its current state is not something I understand. 

Releases are also a problem. After a nice lush arrangement, the reverb just cuts off. 

There are glitches, hanging notes, cut off problems and the staccatos and spiccatos sound weird. They are not tight and there is no option to stretch them or do anything. 

Which leaves us with as they are. 

The legatos are also not consistent. 

So in the end, the legatos need work and the shorts - which for me are the two most important ones. In fact, I am just not able to use the shorts.

24 RR - I cannot really hear it. 

What I like about the library is that it has an edge and can sound lively but I found that Spitfire behaves better and unfortunately still for me VSL is better than both.

I spend a considerable amount of money in the last few months. I got Albion II and III, Berlin Strings, HZ percussion and some other things.

HZ Percussion and some stuff from Evolution Percussion is the best out of the lot. 

Albion II still has problems but after its release and updates they still have not been able to fix the issues. I am also a little lazy to report them all. Its not too bad actually. Spitfire has some good stuff.

Albion III is very good for its intended. More responsive and better over all than Albion II I think.

The sordinos are very nice and I find myself using them often. 

I can confirm about the refund. I got the same response from OT. 

I also have some panning issues with BST. They don't seem panned hard enough for me. 

Once again I need to spend more time with them.

I did however use the violins legato and celli legato on a cue that worked well in a slower passage. With VSL of course!


Tanuj.


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## Daryl (Mar 27, 2014)

adriancook @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> Well if you can get the legatos to operate better than VSL's, which are arguably still the best implementation of legato, then I think you'll be in business.


The bar is the Orchestral and Chamber Strings, IMO. If I can match that, my product will be fantastic. If.......



adriancook @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> What about Dimension Strings though. I don't have them, But the recent demo from Saxer I thought was a really good sound. What puts me off them is the setup and any peripheral stuff necessary, like MIR. In my case, I will stick with Sable and anything bigger, sound wise, goes to Mural, VSL or Cinematic Strings. With any required additions from from Symphobia.


I don't use MIR. I have it, but don't like it very much, for various reasons. The only other kit you need is VI Pro and SSD. That's it.

D


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## Daryl (Mar 27, 2014)

Tanuj, I hear ya.....

D


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## AC986 (Mar 27, 2014)

Daryl @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> I don't use MIR. I have it, but don't like it very much, for various reasons. The only other kit you need is VI Pro and SSD. That's it.
> 
> D



Are you starting to use Dimension Strings fairly consistently now? If so, what are your thoughts on the sound and ease of use in actually getting the sound, perhaps more importantly? I'm tempted I must admit if you think they can sound really good fairly quickly then ……

Tanuj, nightmare mate. Your'e not the first believe me. But live in the knowledge that your work sounds very good regardless.


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## Daryl (Mar 27, 2014)

adriancook @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> Daryl @ Thu Mar 27 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't use MIR. I have it, but don't like it very much, for various reasons. The only other kit you need is VI Pro and SSD. That's it.
> ...


It all depends on what sound you're after. For agile up front stuff they work well, particularly layered with Orchestral Strings.

D


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## muk (Mar 27, 2014)

In my experience the Dimension Strings are very easy to use and deliver quick results once you set them up properly. Have you heard Saxer's demos? He played it in and used cc1, and that's all. Saxer even mentioned that Dimension Strings is close to SampleModeling's instruments in ease of use for him.
My experience is similar. You have to build them into your template first, but after that they are a pleasure to use. They are very responsive and not that hard to make sound good. Until now I mostly used VSL SE+ orchestral strings. Eventhough I tweaked the heck out of my daw I was never quite content with the sound. With Dimension Strings I'm faster, and like the results a lot more.
Btw, I don't have Mir, I use Origami. But Vienna Suite's PowerPan or any good panner and reverb should suffice to use Dimension Strings.
I only just recently bought Dim Strings though, so there might be a bit of buyer's euphoria shining through. But so far I'm very happy with them.


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## AC986 (Mar 27, 2014)

muk @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> Have you heard Saxer's demos? He played it in and used cc1, and that's all. Saxer even mentioned that Dimension Strings is close to SampleModeling's instruments in ease of use for him.



I think I mentioned that earlier right?

Thanks for the info. Can you put something up via SC?


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## re-peat (Mar 27, 2014)

I’m actually reasonably pleased with the Berlins. Well, certainly not displeased in a “I-want-my-money-back”-sort of way, like Daryl seems to be. There’s definitely something there, I think. These past couple of months, I’ve added Mural, the Berlins and Cinesamples’ strings to the collection — one has to know what one is talking about in public I believe (even though, thusfar, I haven’t talked publically about any of these yet) —, and the Berlins certainly aren’t the least satisfactory of the lot.

Far from a perfect release, yes, far from the new standard in stringlibraries, sure, but the things it offers which work, work pretty good I find, and there’s a certain aspect to the captured timbre which suits several of my purposes rather well.
Then again, I don’t care much for legato, runs and things like that, never have, so whatever flaws it may have in those areas, don’t upset me as much as it might someone else.
Really pleased with the included articulations — a *very* wise and refreshingly musical selection, in my opinion — which allow for little subtle things that I don’t see me emulating with other libraries without loosing the will to live.

What annoys me most in many of today’s libraries though, and the Berlins are alas no exception, is the way they complicate things which, I feel, should be left uncomplicated. In their on-going search to make things as user-friendly as possible, too many developers seem to end up in the exact opposite direction and are turning out patches which I find rather user-unfriendly.
Their insistence on trying to script every possible performance-option in single patches, is a somewhat regrettable evolution, I find. It makes for convoluted patches, it increases the risk of technical problems and they’re of no use whatsoever anyway if the scripted, pre-formatted behaviour doesn’t quite fit the demands of the music.
Things like ‘adaptive legato’ for example. That might have seemed like a brilliant idea at the time, and if it fits the music you’re making, fine, but if it doesn’t (which happens to be the case with most of the things I do), it just gets in the way.
I’m of the old-fashioned opinion that developers should leave performance-related aspects as much out of libraries as possible, instead of trying to stuff-script it all in (and paradoxically, narrow the options by doing so). Leave the performance-related decisions of my music to me, is what I’m saying. I don’t want some script deciding for me on how one note should transition into the next. 

I long for the simple patches of yesteryear. (And I very much appreciate that, for example, Spitfire includes ”individual brushes”, which is the folder I reach for more than any other.)

Still, the Berlin strings certainly won’t remain unused, unlike their woodwind relatives.

By the way, and on a more technical note: I use these new libraries in good old OSX 10.6.8 (and LogicPro 9) even though the patches are for Kontakt 5.3 which is said to be incompatible with this system. The trick was to extract the AU-component from the installer (which indeed doesn’t work in SnowLeopard) and simply put it in the Components folder. That’s all there is to it. Been working like this for the past couple of weeks and haven’t run into any unsual problem. All my registrations have remained intact (which could a bit of a problem, I gather, if you installed Kontakt 5.3 first on an OSX 7-or-upwards machine and dragged the installed files over to SnowLeopard). Works flawlessly in VEP too. The only thing I have no longer access to is Kontakt stand-alone, but I never used that anyway.

_


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## muk (Mar 27, 2014)

Piet, wouldn't VI Pro be good at that? It let's you choose your own way of working. No allround single-patches there - if you want them, it gives you the tools to create them yourself. If not you have all the individual articulations at hand. But of course you have to like the VSL sound.

adrian I'll try to put something up in due time. But don't expect too much, I'm still searching my way through this library.


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## AC986 (Mar 27, 2014)

muk @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> adrian I'll try to put something up in due time. But don't expect too much, I'm still searching my way through this library.



I expect everything! :mrgreen:


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## Stephen Rees (Mar 27, 2014)

adriancook @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> muk @ Thu Mar 27 said:
> 
> 
> > adrian I'll try to put something up in due time. But don't expect too much, I'm still searching my way through this library.
> ...



Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

Thank goodness for this thread anyway. It has cured me of another bout of compulsive sample library purchase disease (a periodically flaring but chronic condition).


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## re-peat (Mar 27, 2014)

muk @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> (...) But of course you have to like the VSL sound. (...)


Which is where I jump off the Vienna Express, I'm afraid. I'm wildly enthusiastic about many of VSL's individual instruments and small section recordings (both technically and sonically), and the Dimension Strings are also a useful extra to have, but none of their bigger ensemble recordings, strings especially, have ever convinced me and I *really* do not like what happens to the overal sound when you bring loads of Vienna samples together in one mix. I know Goran and a few others will firmly disagree, and Dietz as well I expect, and they're all perfectly entitled to do so of course, but I'm of the opinion that a VSL-exclusive virtual orchestra just doesn't work. Well, it doesn't to my ears anyway. And add MIR to it and it seems to work even less, I find.

_


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 27, 2014)

The value of Piet's remark is that it underlines just how subjective this whole thing is. Piet has done some terrific sounding stuff and so have Goran and the other he mentions and there is terrific sounding stuff with all the other libraries. AND dreadful stuff with all of them

Which is why it is _so_ important to trust _your own_ ears and_ your own_ taste and not let them be undermined by those who think their taste is superior when in all probability, it is simply different.


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## muk (Mar 27, 2014)

Fair enough. I like to mix and match too. I'm very fond of their woodwinds, except the oboe which I don't like. Their other strings didn't please me much either, but the Dimension Strings struck a chord with me


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## germancomponist (Mar 27, 2014)

re-peat @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> ..., but none of their bigger ensemble recordings, strings especially, have ever convinced me and I *really* do not like what happens to the overal sound when you bring loads of Vienna samples together in one mix. I know Goran and a few others will firmly disagree, and Dietz as well I expect, and they're all perfectly entitled to do so of course, but I'm of the opinion that a VSL-exclusive virtual orchestra just doesn't work. Well, it doesn't to my ears anyway. And add MIR to it and it seems to work even less, I find.
> 
> _



... what I'm telling since years. 

Ok, no war, please! Just our opinions!


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## AC986 (Mar 27, 2014)

germancomponist @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> ... what I'm telling since years.
> 
> Ok, no war, please! Just our opinions!



So what are your favourite strings Gunther?


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 27, 2014)

Oops double post, sorry.


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## AC986 (Mar 27, 2014)

Yes Jay I'm well aware of that. Just simply asking Gunther what his favourite string library is.

It's not a catch question.


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## germancomponist (Mar 27, 2014)

adriancook @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> Yes Jay I'm well aware of that. Just simply asking Gunther what his favourite string library is.
> 
> It's not a catch question.



Sound-wise: Spitfire, EW, Sonivox.


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## Goran (Mar 27, 2014)

re-peat @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> but none of their bigger ensemble recordings, strings especially, have ever convinced me and I *really* do not like what happens to the overal sound when you bring loads of Vienna samples together in one mix. I know Goran and a few others will firmly disagree, and Dietz as well I expect, and they're all perfectly entitled to do so of course, but I'm of the opinion that a VSL-exclusive virtual orchestra just doesn't work. Well, it doesn't to my ears anyway. And add MIR to it and it seems to work even less, I find.



Perceptions sure can be very diverging :wink: I myself f.e. cannot imagine my orchestral strings production work without VSL Orchestral Strings (beginning already with those found in the Special Editions). And for my ears (and these are, I believe, far away from being the worst), I still have to find a pure sample-based production of a concert piece with orchestral strings in it which would be comparable with the best sounding VSL orchestral string productions known to me (and that both for full symphonic and chamber string sections).


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## re-peat (Mar 27, 2014)

Goran @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> (...) I still have to find a pure sample-based production of a concert piece with orchestral strings in it which would be comparable with the best sounding VSL orchestral string productions known to me (and that both for full symphonic and chamber string sections).


There's nothing in the entire VSL demo vault that sounds as good as *this* or *this*. And there never will be. 
Whenever someone asks me how things stand with virtual orchestras today and what sort of quality can be achieved, those are the two examples I always return to. Never have heard anything better-sounding and more convincing in the virtual orchestral domain.

_


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## jamwerks (Mar 27, 2014)

Goran @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> I still have to find a pure sample-based production of a concert piece with orchestral strings in it which would be comparable with the best sounding VSL orchestral string productions known to me)


What are some of the best VSL productions in your opinion?


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## Goran (Mar 27, 2014)

re-peat @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> There's nothing in the entire VSL demo vault that sounds as good as this or this. And there never will be.
> Whenever someone asks me how things stand with virtual orchestras today and what sort of quality can be achieved, those are the two examples I always return to. Never have heard anything better-sounding and more convincing in the virtual orchestral domain.



Well, we will have to continue to disagree on that I suppose. These two examples are first class, but, for my ears, far away from being in any way superior to the best VSL productions known to me. We could argue about the sound style till judgment day, but performance-wise I don't hear anything whatsoever in these that would top the best VSL performances.


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## germancomponist (Mar 27, 2014)

Goran @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> Well, we will have to continue to disagree on that I suppose. These two examples are first class, but, for my ears, far away from being in any way superior to the best VSL productions known to me. We could argue about the sound style till judgment day, but performance-wise I don't hear anything whatsoever in these that would top the best VSL performances.



And here we go..... .

When I am asked about a lib I always think and talk about the "sound".


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## Symfoniq (Mar 27, 2014)

jamwerks @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> Goran @ Thu Mar 27 said:
> 
> 
> > I still have to find a pure sample-based production of a concert piece with orchestral strings in it which would be comparable with the best sounding VSL orchestral string productions known to me)
> ...



I'll submit a candidate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS2AkXYrEVs (Jay Bacal's &quot;Battle of the Heroes&quot; mockup)

Nobody I've played it for has ever guessed it was samples. Nevertheless, I'm sure there will be some people who think it sounds terrible. I don't care. Frankly, I'm beginning to think I'm fortunate to not have ears that can hear every shortcoming of every mockup.


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## Chris Lollis (Mar 27, 2014)

Just my humble 2 cents, nothing compares to the production flexibility of LASS, it does take a little love, but that love invested is well paid off in the end result. 
I do love the out of the box speedy greats don't get me wrong, but I know IMO, whatever I can't achieve with my other string libs, Ill be able to get out of LASS, just depends on how much time I have to invest, and/ or templates..
But, it really does boil down to what makes your ears "smile" and give you satisfaction.
For me it's +1 LASS


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## davidgary73 (Mar 27, 2014)

Goran @ Fri Mar 28 said:


> re-peat @ Thu Mar 27 said:
> 
> 
> > There's nothing in the entire VSL demo vault that sounds as good as this or this. And there never will be.
> ...



Since you said that those Spitfire demos are far away from being in any way superior to the best VSL productions known to you. 

Would you so kindly post some of the best performances VSL demo for us to hear given you don't hear anything whatsoever in Spitfire demos that would top the best VSL performances. 

I would like to know how good is VSL performances compared to Spitfire Audio and always a good thing to hear good music performed with sample libraries. 

Cheers


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## blougui (Mar 28, 2014)

re-peat @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> Goran @ Thu Mar 27 said:
> 
> 
> > (...) I still have to find a pure sample-based production of a concert piece with orchestral strings in it which would be comparable with the best sounding VSL orchestral string productions known to me (and that both for full symphonic and chamber string sections).
> ...


I must agree with you, they are so convincing sound wise as well as very well written.

- Erik


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## Arbee (Mar 28, 2014)

This is one track where I rather liked the sound of VSL strings + MIR:

https://soundcloud.com/chuckgreenjr/gabriels-oboe

To my ears, Spitfire's approach sounds rather like a very good recording of a very good recording in a very sweet space. That doesn't make it inferior in any way, just not my taste or my wish for flexibility in this imperfect samples world in which we live.

Based purely on hearing demos of the newer libraries, Berlin and CineStrings have come close to getting my money, but I may wait for another update or two in both cases.

.


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## Stephen Rees (Mar 28, 2014)

You can actually listen to some of Andy B's work with VSL if you like. Here's a demo he did years ago of Holst's Jupiter….

http://www.vsl.co.at/Player2.aspx?Lang=1&DemoId=4524

Quite good isn't it


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## Stiltzkin (Mar 28, 2014)

I have mir but I no longer use it unfortunately, that's mainly because I don't use VSL (tone just doesn't do it for me unfortunately).

But since this seems to be a bit of a "good mockup candidates" thread, I thought I'd share one I found a while ago by a user (not sure who it is, I guess it'd be their youtube) when I was considering buying hollywood strings diamond.

Anyway - Déborah's Theme

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbVn9qzx2b4

Sounds lovely to my ears, sure some of it might not sound as fragile as sable or mural (which I love), as lush as CS2 or processed as adagio, but that sound and the attention to detail in that mockup to me is just great - especially for one done 3 years ago now.


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## Cygnus64 (Mar 28, 2014)

Arbee @ Fri Mar 28 said:


> This is one track where I rather liked the sound of VSL strings + MIR:
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/chuckgreenjr/gabriels-oboe
> 
> ...




Very nice and lush. To me, it doesn't sound that "real" but in many ways it doesn't matter as it's a lovely sound that stands on its own. 



> Anyway - Déborah's Theme



Very nice, much better than tha EWQLSO Gold that I own. Great mockup.


> I'll submit a candidate: Jay Bacal's "Battle of the Heroes" mockup



Impressive, must have taken a lot of time. Doesn't have a lot of dynamic range though. Seems to lack some "oomph", but it is really nice work.



> Here's a demo he did years ago of Holst's Jupiter….



Interesting. Very well done on his part. The fast stuff sounds great, the strings in the famous middle section don't really do it for me. Very cold sounding. But hey, overall it sounds excellent.



> There's nothing in the entire VSL demo vault that sounds as good as this or this.



Very impressive on many levels.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Mar 29, 2014)

Piet,

I agree with you in that the examples that you have posted are nothing short of extraordinary. 

VSL certainly categorically cannot produce that sound. And Spitfire does make some very nice samples - some of which I own myself.

But, I think what VSL offers is flexibility. You can bend it, abuse it to realize your musical ideas more so than I have had luck with Spitfire so far. 

That is the number one quality of VSL - I agree not at all times, the realism of it. 

What you mention - the two problems with VSL samples, the muddy-ness and high whistling sound is correct. These are some of the problems you face with it. I have used many reverbs over the years like Altiverb, 2C Audio, FORTI, VSL convolution and Hybrid. This problem is consistent in all of them.

But they can be overcome to an extent. 

What you talk about extensively in the forum about samples being snap-shots, that is the one reason sometimes Spitfire and other libraries seem over-committed in their approach. 

This is where VSL truly shines IMHO. 

The quality of the samples, the software and the scripting is unparalleled. There is absolutely nothing out there that is of this quality. 

But I agree, what Spitfire and some of the other libraries do, VSL simply cannot. 

And I am not happy with most official demos from VSL. A fact I have mentioned to Dietz and VSL earlier. But they can be made to sound good.

I love using VSL for its flexibility. In the end, any professional will layer with a real performance and that is where I am very satisfied with VSL.

But on its own, it can be a little less convincing over all. 

Here is something I put together with VSL sometime back, once again not ultra-realistic but it let me realize my vision nonetheless. 

The piano is not VSL and the Violins is from Spitfire Solo Strings here.

https://soundcloud.com/tanujtiku/black-and-white



Tanuj.


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## AC986 (Mar 29, 2014)

vibrato @ Sat Mar 29 said:


> Here is something I put together with VSL sometime back, once again not ultra-realistic but it let me realize my vision nonetheless.
> 
> The piano is not VSL and the Violins is from Spitfire Solo Strings here.
> 
> ...



A very good and powerful piece that sounds and works well.

The issues about the subject matter in this thread become redundant when you can make library(s) of your choice sound like that. I said earlier that you make what you buy work for you in sample land.

You could go to the enth degree and get this piece done with a real orchestra and sit there for years expounding the obvious differences between the two examples of the same work. A set of players in a good orchestra will sound better.

In the end, an audience outside of musicians is not going to worry too much about a sound or real orchestra though, unless it is obviously totally horrendous. They are listening to music more than sound. 

One of the issues I have with classical/well known works mock ups is the guy doing the mock up already has the notes and probably a recording in front of him. That is like painting by numbers to me. It tells me nothing.

Most writers of tv/film/etc music are writing as they go and are generally not writing a score first these days, but playing it in somehow, either by keyboard or mouse, and getting it to sound right as they go along. Fiddling about with a classical mock up until you get the best combination of articulations is generally not an option when time is an issue.

I think you have nothing to worry about and you will get a good sound for your works out of what you've got.


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## Cygnus64 (Mar 31, 2014)

adriancook @ Sat Mar 29 said:


> One of the issues I have with classical/well known works mock ups is the guy doing the mock up already has the notes and probably a recording in front of him. That is like painting by numbers to me. It tells me nothing.



Interesting comment. I see your point, but keep in mind that the entire concept of a string library is imitation/emulation. One thing that the classical mockups are great for is exposing weaknesses. Every library has a "sweet spot" where a certain range or articulation sounds great. With a classical or any other mockup, one is forced out of the sweet spot and has to confront ranges and articulations that might be a problem for the library. I don't do them myself, but I enjoy listening to others doing them and I find them revealing.


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## AC986 (Mar 31, 2014)

Cygnus64 @ Mon Mar 31 said:


> adriancook @ Sat Mar 29 said:
> 
> 
> > One of the issues I have with classical/well known works mock ups is the guy doing the mock up already has the notes and probably a recording in front of him. That is like painting by numbers to me. It tells me nothing.
> ...



You missed out the bit about playing in it as you go etc.

If you watch a Guy Mitchelmore video, (and very good and recommended they are too), you will see what I mean. Messing around with articulations all over the place is great when you have time.

Sweet spots on samples are no different to sweet spots on real instruments. I think I'm right in saying that several books on orchestration cover the sweet spots of every instrument extensively.

The idea of sounding like a real (good) orchestra is the right way to go, but it's not going to happen. Of course, it's all opinion and supposition, but getting every articulation right is for people with too much time on their hands.

Most people just want 10 spicatto versions and they're covered. :mrgreen:


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 31, 2014)

In between the "make yourself crazy trying to get every articulation correct so it will sound more real" crowd and Adrian's recommendation is a wide swath. I recommend people shoot for somewhere in the middle there


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## olajideparis (Mar 31, 2014)

Just finished putting together my HS template and I have to say that there's nothing out there that comes near it's level of completeness in terms of bowings, the Maestro Peter Alexander even says as much in his review of them. I realize that most people are happy to write with nothing more than a palette of "shorts, longs and legatos" and that's fine but when I look at my heroes from the concert and film world I don't get they idea that they woke on any given day and said to themselves; "you know what, today I am only going to write going to write staccatos and spiccatos, sustains and legatos...I absolutely will not write runs of any kind nor any loures or slow fluid arpeggiated figures." That being said, I realize the practicality behind limiting oneself to a core set of articulations, as it just makes things a lot easier but for better or for worse I've decided to go the path of enabling as much creativity and variety as possible. 

It's a really exciting time for sample libraries these days, but unfortunately few developers have the resources to put the kind of investment into a sampling project that will leave the user with the breadth of options required to realistically achieve what is possible with live musicians. VSL has taken that challenge head on and has done a great job with it, the Hollywood series at the moment is the only thing that even comes in a close second in terms of strings and I believe Berlin Strings once complete will be the next and probably final product to live up to the challenge. The rest of the libraries out there are either great "meat and potatoes" libraries with selling points being either ease of use, footprint or the room/production quality and or they fill in gaps where some of the competitors fall short, but none of them on their own get terribly close to Hollywood Strings. 

I thought about this long and hard before I made the decision to buy HS; either spend a few grand on a new computer that could run it, or spend that same few grand on several kontakt based libraries all recorded in different rooms to try to piece together a toolset that could give me what I was looking for in Hollywood Strings...oh and by the time it was all said and done I'd have needed to upgrade from my lowly macbookpro with 16GB of ram anyway. So despite their bad rap, I chose the Hollywood route and so far am pretty happy I've taken that direction. When people criticize it I am not sure that they fully understand the goals and motivation behind it or the massive amount of sampling that went into it. Are some of the patches terrifyingly massive? Why yes they are! But I am not sure how "efficient" you can make a patch that allows you to crossfade between 13 layers of velocity and vibrato and change between one of four playing positions in real time! 

In any case I feel like I've run the risk of going off topic but I wanted to throw in my two cents on the state of string libraries these days. I hope that something I've said will be found relevant.

Olajide


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## Cygnus64 (Mar 31, 2014)

adriancook @ Mon Mar 31 said:


> You missed out the bit about playing in it as you go etc.



I didn't. I was thinking more in terms of limitations, speed or not. But I should have been more clear: I wasn't so much responding to your post as making a general obsevation about mockups and their usefulness (or lack of).  

I'm guessing that most working musicians need both: the ability to create very quickly, and the ability to refine. They tend to go together at some point, because once somebody learns a particular trick, it tends to go in their repertoire of tricks and can be used "on the fly". 

I have two distinct workflows:

1. I'm creating the masterpiece for the ages and I'll work slower than Stanley Kubrick.

2. I need to finish this yesterday. :lol:


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## Casiquire (Apr 1, 2014)

We have here a public demonstration of what happens when you post an example for someone whose mind is already made up. I'd stray away from posts like "This library is way better than the one you like--listen to this example!" because nobody will change their mind in that scenario. Yet look at all the blind tests that have been posted on this forum! Very few were able to tell which libraries produced which examples. So the bottom line is everybody needs to find the library that fits their workflow and inspires their creativity and the results will all be very close to equal, each with a different set of strengths and flaws.


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## Hannes_F (Apr 1, 2014)

adriancook @ Sat Mar 29 said:


> In the end, an audience outside of musicians is not going to worry too much about a sound or real orchestra though, unless it is obviously totally horrendous. They are listening to music more than sound.



I dare to differ here. Tanuj has matured to a masterful sample programmer and mixer, no doubt. Still when I listen to the tracks that we co-operated on they are instantly magnetic and really grab me. Musician or not, the attention span will be longer because recordings are condensed energy, and that translates.

I would say the statement should rather be that if somebody can program and mix like Tanuj can then he does not need to worry too much about which library to use because he can produce similar results with either of the better ones.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 1, 2014)

Casiquire @ Tue Apr 01 said:


> We have here a public demonstration of what happens when you post an example for someone whose mind is already made up. I'd stray away from posts like "This library is way better than the one you like--listen to this example!" because nobody will change their mind in that scenario. Yet look at all the blind tests that have been posted on this forum! Very few were able to tell which libraries produced which examples. So the bottom line is everybody needs to find the library that fits their workflow and inspires their creativity and the results will all be very close to equal, each with a different set of strengths and flaws.



+1.


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## renegade (Apr 1, 2014)

Casiquire @ Tue 01 Apr said:


> We have here a public demonstration of what happens when you post an example for someone whose mind is already made up. I'd stray away from posts like "This library is way better than the one you like--listen to this example!" because nobody will change their mind in that scenario. Yet look at all the blind tests that have been posted on this forum! Very few were able to tell which libraries produced which examples. So the bottom line is everybody needs to find the library that fits their workflow and inspires their creativity and the results will all be very close to equal, each with a different set of strengths and flaws.



Yes. At least from the two blindtest I made, you can mostly conclude that it is the performance more than the actual sound that matters. eg Sonic Implants got a lot of praise (for that particular piece) because they had just the right amount of vibrato. Some newer libs recorded in great halls didn't have this vib, so they were not preferred for this (they may work better for other things of course).

In the legato test SO won...how did that happen...if nothing else, it shows that if you listen without any preconceptions you might be surprised what you like or not like.


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## Carles (Apr 1, 2014)

renegade @ Wed Apr 02 said:


> Casiquire @ Tue 01 Apr said:
> 
> 
> > We have here a public demonstration of what happens when you post an example for someone whose mind is already made up. I'd stray away from posts like "This library is way better than the one you like--listen to this example!" because nobody will change their mind in that scenario. Yet look at all the blind tests that have been posted on this forum! Very few were able to tell which libraries produced which examples. So the bottom line is everybody needs to find the library that fits their workflow and inspires their creativity and the results will all be very close to equal, each with a different set of strengths and flaws.
> ...



Where can I find that blind test?


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## CharlesB (Apr 2, 2014)

Carles @ Wed 02 Apr said:


> Where can I find that blind test?


Here (see page 2).


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## Casiquire (Apr 2, 2014)

Though I would suggest not listening to the blind test and then coming here saying "Oh I could've told you that!" because I guarantee nobody would believe you :oP


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## Carles (Apr 2, 2014)

CharlesB @ Wed Apr 02 said:


> Carles @ Wed 02 Apr said:
> 
> 
> > Where can I find that blind test?
> ...



Thanks Charles. Indeed interesting.

@ Casiquire: LOL, not my case. I was completely unable to say which is which even when the participating libraries were revealed.

Couldn't listen the second round though (file not found).

This test confirms what I've expressed time ago. We should spend more time learning the tools we already have rather than expecting that any flashing new library will be able to read our mind and take the intended expression out magically (because it won't happen, at least in present time).
Unless a really unnatural sound might ruin the performance (and it happen sometimes in any given dynamic/part of the register independently how new the library is) the conclusion is that many libraries can actually do the job.

To me, the point of acquiring new libraries not bringing any substantial improvement makes sense only if the intention is to complete a collection recorded (not normalized) in the same space than your other sections. For someone with no idea about sound engineering (like me) this can be really important as it greatly helps so sit everything in a more convincing manner.

No point for me about "ultra-magic script that will play everything automatically", because even if this will works finely, then it would be the library who takes the control while it's me who actually want to express my way.

I use to compare to CG because in my mind somehow both activities feels the same. You can use a last gen rendering engine that automatically calculates all sort of physical properties to bring realism (and these engines do that job very well within the CG universe), so anyone with the basic technical knowledge can achieve realistic results. However, these engines doesn't bring any artistry to the table.
The point is that today almost anyone can produce realistic CG images, but only the artists can produce art independently of the tool. An artist can produce realistic or not realistic art while the engine can only provide realism.

I think it will happen some day that virtual instruments will be perfectly credible, then the artistic value will be the great difference. Today the line that splits both things, art and realism is still quite fuzzy.

I prefer to listen a well expressed synth line than a flat line with the most realistic library ever, as in the former I can feel some human contribution. Art is and always should be human beings domain.


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## Casiquire (Apr 3, 2014)

Well Carles it sounds like we agree then, the library has less to do with it than the comfort in the hands of the person using it, their ear, their craft. And yes we should definitely spend more time actually writing!


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## AC986 (Apr 3, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Tue Apr 01 said:


> adriancook @ Sat Mar 29 said:
> 
> 
> > In the end, an audience outside of musicians is not going to worry too much about a sound or real orchestra though, unless it is obviously totally horrendous. They are listening to music more than sound.
> ...



I agree Hannes that a lot of people can make sample libraries sound really good. Subliminally, an audience may well appreciate a mix and some may even notice it, but in the end they are mostly listening to music and technical aspects like programming and mixing are taken for granted. And that's the way it should be. Musicians, on the other hand, are in some ways unfortunate, because they have a tendency to listen to mixes etc, and sometimes forget the musicality side of things.


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## renegade (Apr 3, 2014)

Carles @ Thu 03 Apr said:


> Couldn't listen the second round though (file not found).



(files re-uploaded if you're interested)


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## Carles (Apr 3, 2014)

Thanks Renegade!

While they sound different, what can I say, I liked all of them. I don't know if should I be more picky or what but to me everyone has its own beauty so it's very hard to me to say which is -better- (I'm about two years only on the samples world, so I don't know if I'll develop better ears when more experienced, but that's my current conclusion).
As for the dry version perhaps liked less LASS and Albion II I think because found the release too abrupt (which makes no much logical sense for Albion II as it is recorded in a big space and I heard Paul is quite obsessive with pre-attacks and releases. Possibly other had the same releases but was not paying attention to that in that moment?).

Indeed it's a very interesting post. It greatly helps to demonstrate that pre-conception plays an important role, that logic not always apply within the samples realm and that trusting our ears is important. If something sounds good who cares about how old a library is, technical specs, renowned halls and so on.
I'd put more emphasis on having a proper set of articulations.

To me, the perfect string library should have a nice tone, a comprehensive set of articulations of course, and something not much already there in any library, a good set of different vibratos to cover all scenarios, no less than 4, from very gentle to super molto vibrato on -every dynamic layer-, and a good way to blend from one to any other in a convincing way.

BTW, I'm preparing a pre-conception test, not a blind test but kind of funny one (actually a samples mockup fragment perfectly in synch with a symphony orchestra video).
In this test the participants will be not you directly as I'll will reveal the subject in advance (possibly it will be too obvious for so many trained ears in this forum), but I'll need your help by showing the test to somebody else and gather the results in the post.

I think nobody did it before here, and it works really well with the few people I had the chance to test on (even if quite WIP when tested). Hope to have it ready soon.

Cheers,
Carles


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## germancomponist (Apr 3, 2014)

Carles @ Thu Apr 03 said:


> To me, the perfect string library should have a nice tone, a comprehensive set of articulations of course, and something not much already there in any library, a good set of different vibratos to cover all scenarios, no less than 4, from very gentle to super molto vibrato on -every dynamic layer-, and a good way to blend from one to any other in a convincing way.



+1

So now let us define what is a nice sound. 

o-[][]-o


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## Carles (Apr 3, 2014)

germancomponist @ Fri Apr 04 said:


> Carles @ Thu Apr 03 said:
> 
> 
> > To me, the perfect string library should have a nice tone, a comprehensive set of articulations of course, and something not much already there in any library, a good set of different vibratos to cover all scenarios, no less than 4, from very gentle to super molto vibrato on -every dynamic layer-, and a good way to blend from one to any other in a convincing way.
> ...



Mostly the sound you can find in practically every library in the market. Just having nothing that hurts your ears. The point here is on the different vibrato types you might choose as the same instrument changes drastically the character through vibrato.


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## Hannes_F (Apr 3, 2014)

Carles @ Thu Apr 03 said:


> BTW, I'm preparing a pre-conception test, not a blind test but kind of funny one (actually a samples mockup fragment perfectly in synch with a symphony orchestra video).
> 
> ...
> I think nobody did it before here, and it works really well with the few people I had the chance to test on (even if quite WIP when tested). Hope to have it ready soon.



We had a guy in the old northernsounds forum, his name was DPDan, and he did such videos. That was something 10 years ago and he did it with Garritan Personal Orchestra and Garritan Orchestral Strings, very outdated libraries from today's point of view. Nevertheless it was quite convincing in conjunction with the video. Too bad I can not find that any more.

However what did it prove? That people can be fooled? Surprise, surprise . . .


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## germancomponist (Apr 3, 2014)

Carles @ Fri Apr 04 said:


> germancomponist @ Fri Apr 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Carles @ Thu Apr 03 said:
> ...



Carles, I was more joking here.... .


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## germancomponist (Apr 3, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Fri Apr 04 said:


> We had a guy in the old northernsounds forum, his name was DPDan, and he did such videos. That was something 10 years ago and he did it with Garritan Personal Orchestra and Garritan Orchestral Strings, very outdated libraries from today's point of view. Nevertheless it was quite convincing in conjunction with the video. Too bad I can not find that any more.



Oh yes, I remember Dan, what a great and friendly person! He gave me much input in these old days.... .


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## Hannes_F (Apr 3, 2014)

germancomponist @ Fri Apr 04 said:


> Hannes_F @ Fri Apr 04 said:
> 
> 
> > We had a guy in the old northernsounds forum, his name was DPDan, and he did such videos. That was something 10 years ago and he did it with Garritan Personal Orchestra and Garritan Orchestral Strings, very outdated libraries from today's point of view. Nevertheless it was quite convincing in conjunction with the video. Too bad I can not find that any more.
> ...



Yes he is somebody that I miss here . . . 

Anyways, here is such a video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIFXBQD0Fj4

I believe the original was a bit better in the strings because he also used GOS then.

Here is one more. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGsqpwt9yg0&list=PL4AA0A0F4D4EC17A5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGsqpwt9 ... F4D4EC17A5)

Would it fool laymen? Could be. What does that say about the quality? Probably not much.


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## germancomponist (Apr 3, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Fri Apr 04 said:


> germancomponist @ Fri Apr 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Hannes_F @ Fri Apr 04 said:
> ...



Hannes, do you remember this? 

http://www.dankury.com/music/RhapsodyinBlueDanKury.mp3

Yeah, this is done with GPO! Very cool, if you ask me!

The original link: http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php/68011-RHAPSODY-IN-BLUE-with-GPO4-by-George-Gershwin (http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/sho ... e-Gershwin)


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## Hannes_F (Apr 3, 2014)

Yes, that was more the original Dan Kury quality.

OK, some passages are _really _outdated soundwise. Still, for the time and the tools . . . 

The whole northernsounds forum an error message here, does it work for you?


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## brento (Apr 3, 2014)

I have to say I quite like Berlin strings too. But my next purchase will probably be East West's Hollywood Strings. I think East West still has some of the highest quality stuff... very happy with the many libraries I have of theirs. I don't have any of the Hollywood stuff yet. Just waiting for a great sale.


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## Carles (Apr 4, 2014)

germancomponist @ Fri Apr 04 said:


> Carles @ Fri Apr 04 said:
> 
> 
> > germancomponist @ Fri Apr 04 said:
> ...



Sure mate, I have read you many times so I think I know about your friendly and jokely character 

Just got a chance to be more specific with my point, as is true that can be interpreted quite differently.

I was quite convinced about that there are many nice sounds out there already. The blind test above just convinced me completely 

So just that, having the average sound already there but with a more comprehensive set of sonic resources not necessarily programed in any manner, but available to the user.
I have no idea about scripting but a system live V.I. Pro allows anyone to customise whatever you might find in the patches pool in a very visual and intuitive way for the non advanced user, so something like that.
For instance many libraries doesn't cover well playing pp with any noticeable vibrato.

Let's say VSL solo violin regarding vibrato. I found amazing that you can have, non vibrato, vibrato progressive, vibrato, vibrato espressivo, vibrato down (warmer, romantic-like).
That's a fantastic toolset to cover many scenarios, so I miss that flexibility with ensembles having also several dynamic layers per each type.

That solo violin has also 4 type of portamentos, that's greatly useful too.

So in a few words, it's more important for me to have resources than flashy features and certainly I don't care if the library it's been recorded in a top class venue or in the warehouse were the developer's brother in law uses to park his tractor, as far as the output sounds good to my ears.

The blind test demonstrates that when we are talking about a certain library often we can read "the sound of this library" and "the sound of that other", handling pre-made concepts that becomes vox populi, but actually nobody is able to recognize all of these in a blind test. So, are these pre-concepts affecting our perception or not... obviously yes.

Hannes, thus when it came to my mind the perception test I'm working on (terrifically fun for me I have to say because it's fooling myself often).
Not really intended to demonstrate anything, just found it fun, or anecdotic, or curious, or whatever to call it, but somehow possibly interesting and entertaining for some of you (though indeed demonstrates that factors external to music/sound can modify our perception about it).

It can be a bit more participative too, as I won't reveal the instruments used so you could guess which is which 

Didn't know that anyone already did something like that (I'm relatively new on SampleLand). Thanks for sharing those links, it's been fun for me to watch these.
Loved the merit of that guy doing such a thing with so limited resources.


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## germancomponist (Apr 4, 2014)

Carles @ Fri Apr 04 said:


> Let's say VSL solo violin regarding vibrato. I found amazing that you can have, non vibrato, vibrato progressive, vibrato, vibrato espressivo, vibrato down (warmer, romantic-like).
> That's a fantastic toolset to cover many scenarios, so I miss that flexibility with ensembles having also several dynamic layers per each type.



Especially the vibrato down is so good if you write a sad melody. Some years ago I did a thread here where I demonstrated these "happy/sadly" differences.


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## muk (Apr 5, 2014)

So here is my first test-run with the VSL Dimension strings I promised to upload:

[flash width=450 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F143261369&secret_url=false[/flash]


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## ModalRealist (Apr 5, 2014)

muk @ Sat Apr 05 said:


> So here is my first test-run with the VSL Dimension strings I promised to upload:
> 
> [flash width=450 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F143261369&secret_url=false[/flash]



Muk, that sounds really rather good to me. Is there any chance of seeing a score of the piece (if one exists) to follow on the recording?


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## Casiquire (Apr 5, 2014)

Everyone's talking about VSL Solo Violin "Vibrato Down", but I don't see it on the list of articulations. What exactly is it?


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## muk (Apr 6, 2014)

Hi ModalRealist. Thank you for your kind words. I'll see what I can do about the score tonight. It's a little untidy (sketched it quickly), but for reading along it should do the trick.

Oh, if anybody has advice on how to improve this little mock up that'd be appreciated.


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## Goran (Apr 6, 2014)

Casiquire @ Sat Apr 05 said:


> Everyone's talking about VSL Solo Violin "Vibrato Down", but I don't see it on the list of articulations. What exactly is it?



It's the 1_6 VI_sus_Vib-down_ patch (extended library). Starts with a strong vibrato and then continually changes to non vibrato (on lower velocities, on the higher ones it doesn't go all the way to non vibrato).


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## AC986 (Apr 6, 2014)

muk @ Sun Apr 06 said:


> if anybody has advice on how to improve this little mock up that'd be appreciated.



When it starts you could easily think it was a real violin section. So that sounds great.

Where it unravels (as sound I mean) is around 23 to 24 seconds in. It gets squeaky at the top end and screams samples, so what you could try, is isolate those slightly piercing frequencies and deal with them mercilessly with a good EQ cut. Something like Fabfilters Pro Q, which is very transparent for example.

Other than that, sounds great and is quite a melodramatic/romantic style piece.

I personally don't like too much portamento. It needs to be really well done to be realistic imo.


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## muk (Apr 6, 2014)

ModalRealist, I sent you the score.

Adrian, thanks for your hints. I agree that the violins are shrill in the second half. I'll try to add some eq (there's only a low cut filter on it so far).
And yeah, the portamento is too much for my taste too. I think I'll have to use timestretch to make it more subtle, but I haven't digged into it that deep.


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## Casiquire (Apr 6, 2014)

Goran @ Sun 06 Apr said:


> Casiquire @ Sat Apr 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Everyone's talking about VSL Solo Violin "Vibrato Down", but I don't see it on the list of articulations. What exactly is it?
> ...



Aah thank you, that DOES sound useful!


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## Tanuj Tiku (Apr 21, 2014)

Just wanted to give a sort of final update about my purchase of Berlin Strings for those who are interested. 

Here is a short piece of music I did yesterday with only Berlin Strings:

https://soundcloud.com/tanujtiku/fate


This is the sort of thing that BS does very well - at least for me. 

*Short Pros and Cons (for me) about BS not in any particular order:*

*What I like about BS:*

1. For slower lush passages, it sounds the best of all libraries I have heard so far. The legatos for slow to medium legato type writing is very good and beautiful. Very fluid. Some tweaks may be required. 

2. It has an edgy and lively sound (not as edgy as LASS which I sometimes do not like). 

3. It sounds like a string section without much noodling with EQ and/or reverb etc. 

4. It saves me to load 7 reverbs to make VSL work with a lot of other special processing - saving considerable amount of CPU power. 

5. Mod Wheel responds very well - better than Spitfire Albion II and III for me anyway and there is a dynamic range slider. 

6. Accents on legatos! 

*What I don't like about BS:* 

1. It is a monster and will very quickly use up a lot of your RAM and it takes much longer to load patches even from an SSD. Slowest loading times compared to any library I own. 

2. There are a lot of bugs which have been discussed at length elsewhere. The library is not consistent. 

3. Shorts are just not good enough for me. They just don't sound very good to me and I seriously cannot hear 24 RR. 

4. The library over all can sound a bit thin. The Celli and Bass lack that low end that is present in most other libraries. Phenomenal mids though. 

5. Faster legatos do not seem to be working very well as of version 1.0 with many drop outs. 

6. No option to time stretch any samples and the mic blending is not always working for me. I have had absolutely no use of surround mics because of drop outs. Its better to put a reverb on top - not a major issue if you look at it like that. 

7. Some of the included articulations are not making much sense to me as of now. But I need to dig in deeper. I cannot seem to find any use for them. 

8. I am not a fan of the softer dynamics of these samples. The library shines in the mf to fff dynamic. I have had to use the volume slider on some occasions, something I never have do to with VSL. CC11 is not included as a feature to control dynamics as of V 1.0
Because I have found no use for the surround mics, I have had to use reverb to mask releases and give a little more sense of space but this is not a huge problem - better than having too much reverb built into the samples 


_Note: I have not yet downloaded the update and this piece of music (and my remarks) are based on version 1.0_



Tanuj.


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## eric aron (Apr 21, 2014)

thanks for spending time for it!

beautiful emotion, showing the library good ability for this kind expression

what are more precisely your concerns about the short arts?


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## Ian Dorsch (Apr 21, 2014)

vibrato @ Sun Apr 20 said:


> Just wanted to give a sort of final update about my purchase of Berlin Strings for those who are interested.
> 
> Here is a short piece of music I did yesterday with only Berlin Strings:
> 
> ...



This sounds really lovely, Tanuj. Nice writing, and possibly the most convincing legato I've yet heard in a Berlin Strings demo. You seem to have found a way around those weird disappearing note ends, too.


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## clarkus (Apr 21, 2014)

ALBION / BERLIN 

I wonder who owns Albion Spitfire (strings) AND Berlin Strings? Any chance of a comparison here for those of us who can't plump for both?

I was interested that senior member Vibrato write:

"Berlin Strings is also the first library since VSL I think that responds very well to the Mod Wheel. This has been done very nicely. The dynamic range is quite good and I saw an option to increase this in some patches as well. Very cool!"

Besides the "How does it sound" issue I am VERY curious what folks experience is with the mod wheel & the Albion string collections.


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## Mahlon (Apr 21, 2014)

vibrato @ Mon Apr 21 said:


> Here is a short piece of music I did yesterday with only Berlin Strings:
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/tanujtiku/fate



This sounds really, really good. It's hard to find string samples that can be exposed like that and still hold up. Great job! Composition is also great!

I don't hear it as much in your piece, but Berlin basses (legato) have a pronounced bump in the start of the note. Some notes of the Violins 1 do, too. Did you use the volume to drop these out? From what I can hear, your transitions are super smooth in the upper strings -- smoother than "out of the box".

Mahlon


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## Tanuj Tiku (Apr 21, 2014)

Thanks guys...


The Shorts - A lot of them are not short enough and there is no option to tighten them. They sound a bit different to my usual taste for shorts. Even with close mics up front as such. 

@Clarkus, 

Spitfire is a very different library than Berlin Strings. The Mod wheel responds well on Spitfire libraries too but its not as smooth and direct as BS. There is however the CC11 that you can use to add expression but I think BS is better in this department but really they are more different. Also Spitfire is not as edgy as BS but I also think many people just do not set up the levels correctly. 

Like what was being said about HZ Percussion - Same thing - It can sound massive and really spanky with a little compression - its just about setting up the right dynamic range with the levels. 

@Mahlon - Agreed. Basses are bumpy - I don;t know why. Perhaps they have fixed this in the update. Not really that great over all - the Bass.

Violins respond differently - I thin you sort of have to know the strength of the library. The legatos also respond differently with different velocities. Again, its just about setting them up right.

I did use volume automation for the start notes in a couple of places - very moderate. And once more in some other track - cant remember now. 

The releases are problematic as of version 1.0

I have added VSL Hybrid reverb in this example to add a bit lushness. The Modwheel does not completely go soft at times but this can either be fixed with volume automation and reverb or you could use the dynamic range slider in some of the patches to set the maximum level and then go from ultra-soft PPP to louder dynamics.

Some notes are bumpy but over all for this kind of writing, it all works really nice.

Violas sound dull to me and the legatos do not really work as well as Violins and celli.

But I can live with it for now and simply use VSL. 


Tanuj.


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## Richard Bowling (Apr 21, 2014)

Vibrato- nice composition and programming.


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## kavinsky (Apr 21, 2014)

vibrato
Totally agree, BST can sound fantastic and really convincing. but the library is not consistent, even throughout the patches, for example celli ostinato arp legato responds really well on higher notes, but much slower in the low register. 
I'm not totally in love with shorts either, they sound ok, but still no comparison to LASS. And to be honest, the tone of the library is pretty dull most of the times, some patches sound very good and bright, while others not. Of course I can automate EQ, but do I really have to?
Truth be told, BST has the best legato scripting and qualities ever, there is no single pitch problem (unlike adagio for example - when two different notes crossfade on legato transition - sounds plain awful). I really love how it sounds, very smooth.
Most importantly, its very expressive, I can't compare it to nothing, its just mindblowing at times. I love recent spitfire libraries, the way they laid down the patches, the consistency, but I haven't heard a single demo that can compete with "lifeness" of BST.

And I strongly suggest anyone to update it.
They really pushed things forward I just hope it won't stop here.


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## clarkus (Apr 22, 2014)

Beautiful piece!


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## clarkus (Apr 22, 2014)

It's so useful to get an in-depth review, with many voices (excuse the pun) joining in. If you actually use theses libraries for awhile & experience the virtues as well as the drawbacks, a great service is being done. I know you bought theses libraries to get some work done but you're also giving a lot of us some valuable perspective!


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## Tanuj Tiku (Apr 22, 2014)

clarkus,


I am glad I could be of some help. I am going to prepare a list of issues with BS after I install the update.

For now, I have found some use for it in certain type of writing and its responding very well indeed. 

I hope this thread has provided some good discussion about Berlin Strings and can be informative from a user perspective.

Thank you all for contributing. 


Tanuj.


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