# Any multi-Bricasti users here? How do you use them in your midi mockups?



## maestro2be (Nov 25, 2014)

Hello all,

I am just gathering some information and making decisions for my Christmas gift and the first thing that comes to mind is, multiple bricasti's.

I currently own one and love it, bit I am curious from experience, how one would go about using say 2-3-4 of these in a chain so you have your strings going to one, woods to another and brass percussion another.

How exactly do you have it setup? Do you do all of your pre-delay, room, early release/tail within the unit for each section?

Do you use a different room, for each section?

I am really interested to hear how you do it, and whether the results were as good as you had imagined.

Thanks,

Maestro2be


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## Jack Weaver (Nov 25, 2014)

- Boston Hall A for long strings - relative long tail
- Boston Hall A for short stings - shorten the tail considerably (putting longs & shorts into the same reverb tail is a big problem)
- Brass Hall for brass
(I tend to use other things for ww)
- different small rooms and choruses for gtrs

3 or 4 M7's is good place to go. 
get a remote - you'll be glad
feel free to pm me.

.


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## RiffWraith (Nov 25, 2014)

If you are looking at getting two more B-M7s, might I suggest saving about 60% of your money, and get a 480L. That is, unless you MUST have something brand new. Many people will tell you the 480L is better for orchestral music than an M7. Whether or not it is, is open for debate. But you can not go wrong with either. And since you have an M7 already...

Cheers.


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## Jack Weaver (Nov 25, 2014)

Love me some 480.

Hate trying to make 20+ year old expensive digital gear keep working. 

I have a bunch of hardware reverbs but can no longer spend my time worrying about discontinued Lex, AMS or EMT units that are extremely hard to find parts for (or knowledgable fixit guys). 

Also, if M7's had been around in the hey day of Lexicons there would have been much less lexicons in orchestral work. M7's are very appropriate for orchestral and sample-based work. 

.


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## chimuelo (Nov 25, 2014)

Model 7's are incredible. Wish I had the dough.

480L's are also excellent sounding units, but JW is correct about the fixing part.
However, the good news is it's always the side soldered vertical batteries that die.
It keeps the unit from storing presets into RAM, and with multiple reverbs that becomes tedious, but the batteries are easily available and I even successfully mounted several in other units.

Being a poor man with good ears I took my ancient Lexicon PCM 70 and A/B'd it at the Studio here w/ the SSL4000G+ that comes Standard with the TC Mainframe and 480L w/ LARC. I heard no difference in the quality of the effect.
Then A/B'd the PCM 70 with several other newer Lexicons until I found a unit that sounded as good at the PCM 70 w/ Digital I/Os.
Settled for 4 x MPX-1's for 800 USD.
They lack deep editing options but have the basics, and also have the Algo's + everything from all previous units.

If you go with old units the below pic shows you the battery still found in any electronic parts store. Toshiba Side Solder mounted. They last for 15-20 years.




upload gambar


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## maestro2be (Nov 25, 2014)

Thanks guys, that's some great feedback!

I also use the Boston Hall Jack, that is my favorite setting. I learned that setting from my friend actually and never looked back. It is actually part of the reason I am inclined to get more of them. I just can't seem to come anywhere near that sound quality with software. I am not saying someone else couldn't, but I have never heard anyone do it yet. I even heard people trying to use B2 and various others to go against it.

What I always noticed was the enormous sound stage it created (it almost opens up the sides more than software I have heard and used) as well as depth without sucking out the life of the instrument.

At any rate, I really appreciate it and prefer to keep it simple (I already complicate to many things) by going all M7's if this is the direction I go, it's all in. I obsess to much when I have to many choices.


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## chimuelo (Nov 25, 2014)

You need super fast calculations to pull off a realistic time/space effect.
Software FX are basically all tails and no meat around the audio source.
At least that's what I hear, and why I can't use those kinds of effects, especially live.

I need the effect to be immediate and big like a huge Sewer under the Streets of Paris or old French town St. Louis.
If there was a software or even DSP effect that could calculate that space and time so accurately I would spend 1,000 USD or more as it would be a valuable tool.

Even the new Lexicon software suffers from the inefficiency of ASIO or something, as the effect is only heard as a tail, which might work for mushy soft Orchestration, but when an effect immediately wraps around the audio source giving it a sense of depth, that seems to require a dedicated audio chip and RAM, as Apple/M$oft + ASIO then Intel = muddiness.


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## FriFlo (Nov 25, 2014)

I recently got a bricasti m7 as well. I really like it, but 3-4 units? That's a lot of dough!
For surround sound, times 3, so 9 - 12 units. 
Are you guys using VSL (or other dry libraries) exclusively? Or why do you really thinks it helps to use different reverbs on sections? It kind of contradicts what I learned about usage of reverb. For ambient libraries like Orchestral tools or Spitfire it seems like a big waste of money.


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## Jack Weaver (Nov 25, 2014)

*maestro2b sez:*


> I just can't seem to come anywhere near that sound quality with software.


heh, heh, heh....



> I even heard people trying to use B2


B2 is a nice reverb. I have it also. It does many good things. Imitating a M7 is not one of them.



> prefer to keep it simple (I already complicate to many things) by going all M7's if this is the direction I go, it's all in.


I appreciate that but I find that an unrealistic expectation. Being a registered reverbophile I use a bunch of different hardware and software options. In my experience the M7 is the best reverb for orchestral sample work - especially strings and brass - if you're looking for depth and realism. That leaves a lot of room for other hardware and software answers for the other orchestral families and other 'artistic' space simulations. 
Oh, and I love M7 for rock/jazz drum sets and guitars - both acoustic and electric. 
My suggestion is to take a look at other choices in addition to a handful of M7's. One other choice is SPAT for localization and M7 for the reverb. I know you're a VSL-type guy but SPAT is very different than MIR. (I have MIR also.)

*FriFlo sez:*


> For ambient libraries like Orchestral tools or Spitfire it seems like a big waste of money.


M7 is magnificent on Berlin Strings. _In my experience the best combination of strings/reverb of anything out there._ Also it works well with Sable shorts. In fact the Sable shorts and a short M7 room are one of my favorites. I have the Albion series but not Mural. Can't help you there. I do have a TC M6000 like what the Spitfire guys say they use. But honestly haven't had the opportunity to use in on any Spitfire string libs yet. I tend to use it on choir. 

.


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## maestro2be (Nov 25, 2014)

Hi Jack,

Thanks for all that great advice. I did recently pickup SPAT when it was 50% off. I haven't gotten around to using it yet, was worried about how much CPU it would take to do one instance per instrument.

Have you tried this and would you recommend it for a complete VSL orchestral setup just for the spatialization portion?

If it would work, I support I could still use just my 1 Bricasti and be in good shape.

If you were in my shoes, and only care about orchestral mockups, what hardware device other than a Bricasti would you consider to breath big life into my mockups?


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## Jack Weaver (Nov 25, 2014)

PM'd you. 

.


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## FriFlo (Nov 26, 2014)

Jack, I wasn't trying to say, BS and Bricasti was a waste of money. In fact, I noticed this to be a very good combination, I use myself. 
But I use the same settings of the m7 as send, controlling the spacial balance between groups by the mic mix in Kontakt and different amounts of send. I could only see the need for different settings of reverb for very dry libraries right now, but if you would care to explain, what you are doing there, I would be very interested in trying that out! After all, you can actually bounce to HD and therefore do not have to buy multiple Bricasti units for starters!  I was thinking of getting another pair of Bricastis myself, but rather for using them in a surround mix, where the bouncing won't get you anywhere.


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## jamwerks (Nov 26, 2014)

Interesting topic here. I'm planning to get an M7 in January, and just as I was thinking (as JW says), seems it not possible to have on catch-all preset reverb tail to work for the whole orchestra. Routing shorts and longs (SF) to different outs seems like an extreme solution, but then why not?

Getting a used M7 (2400€) is already alot of dough, so two is out of the question for me. But TC reverb 4000's can be had in Europe for about 600€. So think I'll go that route (M7 +TC4000).

I'd have lots of questions for Jack: are you turning off the ER's on the M7?

I'm also planning on picking up SPAT soon. Demo'd it and found that it brought all thing Adagio-Agitato to the next level. Also good it seems for VSL WW and Sample-Modeling.

Keep the info coming!


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## Jack Weaver (Nov 26, 2014)

*FriFlo sez:*


> _Jack, I wasn't trying to say, BS and Bricasti was a waste of money. In fact, I noticed this to be a very good combination, I use myself.
> But I use the same settings of the m7 as send, controlling the spacial balance between groups by the mic mix in Kontakt and different amounts of send. I could only see the need for different settings of reverb for very few libraries right now, but if you would care to explain, what you are doing there, I would be very interested in trying that out! After all, you can actually bounce to HD and therefore do not have to buy multiple Bricasti units for starters! Smile I was thinking of getting another pair of Bricastis myself, but rather for using them in a surround mix, where the bouncing won't get you anywhere._


Forgive me if it seemed I was a little 'chippy'. I did not mean to convey that. 

Bouncing to disk (or printing reverb, as I call it) is a great thing to do in order to maximize your investment. It's the thing to do when you have a single hardware reverb. The drawback is you 'memorialize' your track and personally, I seem to need more flexibility when it comes to the mix stage. I do however feel for those wanting more hardware but are still in the process of acquiring their full kit. You do what you have to do under that circumstance.

Currently for BS I insert Magnetic II on each instrument channel (and sometime Slate VCC Neve on the groups) and do any necessary EQ. Gotta round out those harsh elements that seem to always sneak into sample libraries. 

I break out strings into Longs and Shorts groups. I send the Longs to Boston Hall A and Shorts to Boston Hall A with a shorter tail. Finding the length of the tail for each is dependent on the tempo and mood of the piece. 1/10 of a second makes all the difference in the magic. 

For those insisting to use an overall reverb, well...we're on different paths. One artificial reverb applied to all instruments does not a stage make. We're crafting a simulated world inside a computer here. I might use a dozen different reverbs in a mix and they all do different things for different spatial purposes. For example, a long reverb on strings shorts sound muddy but very much enhances a legato phrase section. For brass I tend to use M7 Brass Hall. It has less early reflections and a smooth tail. The Boston Hall A used for strings muddies up the brass. 

*per jamwerks:*



> _Interesting topic here. I'm planning to get an M7 in January, and just as I was thinking (as JW says), seems it not possible to have on catch-all preset reverb tail to work for the whole orchestra. Routing shorts and longs (SF) to different outs seems like an extreme solution, but then why not?
> Getting a used M7 (2400€) is already alot of dough, so two is out of the question for me. But TC reverb 4000's can be had in Europe for about 600€. So think I'll go that route (M7 +TC4000).
> I'd have lots of questions for Jack: are you turning off the ER's on the M7?
> I'm also planning on picking up SPAT soon. Demo'd it and found that it brought all thing Adagio-Agitato to the next level. Also good it seems for VSL WW and Sample-Modeling.
> _



I hope I answered the question about separate outs in the reply above. 

Yeah, the M4000 is a great price to get the VSS4 reverbs. 

Regarding surround, I wish they would make an 8-channel Bricasti. Not sure how many people are buying $7-10K hardware these days. So in their defense I understand their position. I have some other surround hardware pieces. (If you're interested in these please feel free to PM me for info. I don't want to bore everyone to death here. I have a couple favorites that do all sorts of stuff the M7 can't touch.) Plus there are other pretty nice software surround plugs: Exponential and SPAT come to mind. 

SPAT is totally killer. I find a new use for it in almost every mix. Repeat has (had) the best video for this. SPAT in surround can be incredible. I haven't used MIR for surround yet as I only have one license and its on my slave machine with the VSL samples. (I guess I could re-route the surround mix back to the slave via VSL's Audio Input plug but I'd probably break my brain trying to do the routing.)

Blakus has a tutorial somewhere on what to do with Sample Modeling using B2. I've used it a lot. For example, you can totally match the CineBrass ambience with it. 

Regarding ER's on M7, I tend to leave them as is. (Caveat, I mix cues with a lot of tracks and I don't have time to mess around.) The ER's give each preset its own character. If I don't like the preset I don't like the ER's and I just move on to find one I like. As I said above, the ER's on Boston Hall A muddy the brass attack. So I use Brass Hall. It just figures. 

.


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## Symfoniq (Nov 26, 2014)

Jack:

Hopefully the OP will forgive me for jumping in here, but you're a wealth of knowledge on this topic. It will be a while before I'm in the market for something like an M7, but as someone who uses VSL samples with MIR Pro and MIRacle almost exclusively, can SPAT still play a role in my workflow? I really don't know if I'm missing out a lot or just a little.


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## Jack Weaver (Nov 26, 2014)

SPAT I find really useful for solo instruments. You know, things like acoustic guitar, ethnic winds the odd this and that. It's good also for VSL instruments. 

When I use MIR for VSL recently I've found EQing the mid-range out really helps with mix clarity. It's a little different range for each MIR instrument. It really cleans up the MIR'd instrument channels though. Too much mud in multiple channels of MIR for me. 

I also love MIR when doing virtual 'world-izing' an instrument or a synth. That's when you simulate re-amping a sound out into the studio through speakers and micing it again before you add it to the mix. 

MIRacle is nice. I find it a little thick. Hybrid Reverb and the VSL Convo are both great. 

.


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## eric aron (Nov 27, 2014)

chimuelo @ Tue Nov 25 said:


> You need super fast calculations to pull off a realistic time/space effect.
> Software FX are basically all tails and no meat around the audio source.
> At least that's what I hear, and why I can't use those kinds of effects, especially live.
> 
> ...



this..
..and same for vst synths sound accuracy and speed


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## Living Fossil (Nov 29, 2014)

chimuelo @ Tue Nov 25 said:


> You need super fast calculations to pull off a realistic time/space effect.
> Software FX are basically all tails and no meat around the audio source.
> At least that's what I hear, and why I can't use those kinds of effects, especially live.



As far as i know Relab is giving a free copy of their Lexicon 480 emulation to everybody who can spot the differences to a real unit (it's a blind test thing).
So far, nobody was able to do so.
Therefore i would gently ask you to do this test and after beeing the first person winning a free copy you could give it to me. That would be cool! 

(Nevertheless the bricastis are fantastic units...)


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## jamwerks (Nov 29, 2014)

Jack Weaver @ Wed Nov 26 said:


> SPAT I find really useful for solo instruments. You know, things like acoustic guitar, ethnic winds the odd this and that.


Do you by chance use Adagio? I demo'd SPAT and thought it did wonders to it?


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