# Brass Library Recommendation?



## John R Wilson (Aug 14, 2020)

I'm currently looking for a good main brass Library. I've got EWHO Brass which is nice and great at the louder dynamics and the BBCSO which is ok but not that good for brass, it has its issues. My main libraries I'm using for strings and woods currently have been SCS and VSL woods, both of these libraries I really like but I would quite like to add an additional brass library which is quite flexible in regards to mixing in well with my other libraries and can act as a main brass library.

My two main considerations at the moments have been either Aaron Ventures Infinite Brass or CSB. I do really like the look of the playability of Infinite Brass but I have also read lots of good things about CSB. If I do end up getting CSB and really end up liking it, I would probably end up getting CSS. likewise, If I got Infinite Brass I'd probably end up getting Infinite Strings when it's released. So out of these which would you go for? I cant afford to buy into both these series at the moment so it would be a choice between Infinite series or the Cinematic studio series.


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## VSriHarsha (Aug 14, 2020)

CSB is Cinematic Studio Brass? I think it's much a smaller section. Have you checked JXL Brass by OT? I loved the sound. Very tempting.


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## John R Wilson (Aug 14, 2020)

VSriHarsha said:


> CSB is Cinematic Studio Brass? I think it's much a smaller section. Have you checked JXL Brass by OT? I loved the sound. Very tempting.



Yeah CSB is Cinematic Studio Brass  I did have a look at JXL Brass but its so expensive so wont be getting it. It's 900 Euro after tax which is about £860. So for that price I could get CSS, CSB and Infinite Brass.


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## Casiquire (Aug 14, 2020)

Infinite Brass seems to be a favorite in here, for sure. I think brass has more amazing options than most other sections. There's Hollywood Brass, Modern Scoring Brass, Dimension Brass, Infinite Brass, SampleModeling, Century Brass, Chris Hein Brass, Cinebrass, and so much more and they all get tons of praise here. I'm sorry to say I haven't heard a bad word about either of your two choices. My impression is that CSB sounds marginally "better" to my taste, but Infinite Brass is far more versatile and capable of doing anything


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## NoamL (Aug 14, 2020)

imo... there's a ton of options but two libraries stand above the pack.

*CineBrass* because the sound is just bang on. You can take any score recorded by a great orchestral composer at SONY or FOX and compare it to CineBrass and you'll find the tone of each instrument, the attitude behind the playing, the choice of mics, the sense of space created by the mix of close-mic proximity & Decca tree & room ambience, it's all accurate to the real thing. Even the onboard reverb, which in many libraries is a nuisance, in CineBrass is mixed just as it would be used _at_ SONY. The downside of the library (I don't have it but work with several composers who use it) - it just doesn't seem very agile to me or convincing on passages that switch between articulations.

*Cinematic Studio Brass* because it's a powerhouse. It is agile, beautiful, convincing, BRASH, consistent, easy & fun to use. The greatest strength is just like CSS, the more work you put into making your parts more realistic, the more the library rewards you back. The dynamic range is monstrous, missing only _p_ and a truly mellow _mp_, but it has real, consistent and musical _ff_ for _every_ instrument. I remixed this library significantly - mostly altering the balance of microphones and using Precedence + reverb to get it to sound like a score reference. Funny thing is the closer I got, the more it also sounded like Cinebrass....

*Spitfire Symphonic Brass* & *Hollywood Brass* are good too....  it just depends what your artistic goals are.. but if you want a brass sound that legitimately sounds like it was recorded at an A-list scoring stage then I'd pick Cinebrass for the out of the box sound, or CSB for the ability to make it sound great with some prep work, or SSB if you want specifically the sound of AIR.


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## mussnig (Aug 14, 2020)

John R Wilson said:


> I'm currently looking for a good main brass Library. I've got EWHO Brass which is nice and great at the louder dynamics and the BBCSO which is ok but not that good for brass, it has its issues. My main libraries I'm using for strings and woods currently have been SCS and VSL woods, both of these libraries I really like but I would quite like to add an additional brass library which is quite flexible in regards to mixing in well with my other libraries and can act as a main brass library.
> 
> My two main considerations at the moments have been either Aaron Ventures Infinite Brass or CSB. I do really like the look of the playability of Infinite Brass but I have also read lots of good things about CSB. If I do end up getting CSB and really end up liking it, I would probably end up getting CSS. likewise, If I got Infinite Brass I'd probably end up getting Infinite Strings when it's released. So out of these which would you go for? I cant afford to buy into both these series at the moment so it would be a choice between Infinite series or the Cinematic studio series.



I was in a similar situation as you, recently. Eventually I went with IB since a) it offers a lot (there are already 26 instruments and you can do everything from small to big) and b) it's more different to the rest of what I had at that point. With IB you can really get the sound you have in mind without thinking about keyswitches or browsing through articulations until you find the right sound.

As far as I know there is no possibility to try either of them. But after reading so many good things about IB (also, another update adding Cimbassi is apparently coming soon) I went for it and I couldn't be happier. Recently, I loaded all 9 trombones into a multi - loud and massive, could easily blow stuff away. At the same time IB is just sooooo expressive and easy to use.

Note however, that I do not have CSB for direct comparison and that I am a complete amateur ...


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## I like music (Aug 14, 2020)

I have CSB and Infinite and HWB.

HWB - I consider it to have one of the best tones out there. The only library which has equal tone (for the stuff I like) is Cinebrass, but I don't own that. 

CSB - I own it. I removed it from my hard drive altogether once I got Infinite. If I had enough HD space I'd have kept it on there, but I prefer Infinite. Just too much possibility to sculpt your performance, and lots of instruments e.g. trumpets, bass trumpets (picc trumpet I think?), contrabass trombone, contrabass bones and more, I think?. I do like the room of CSB e.g. the trumpets have a lovely fat sound. Infinite's trumpets sound much more like the Goldsmith/Williams trumpets I loved. 

Tricky one, as I there's lots of value in CSB. In the end the flexibility and ability to write phrases exactly how you want, pips it for me and I'd give a thumbs up to Infinite (you can do trumpet fanfares, which from a tone perspective sound perfect to me, and you can suddenly use the same trumpet to go nice and mellow, with convincing vibrato etc). No keyswitches. Barely any space taken on your HD etc etc


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 15, 2020)

I think JXL is well worth it.

I just got it installed on my laptop for when I'm bored at work, and I just threw these phases together with a mixed position I made.

no idea if it sounds good(laptop speakers at low volume) but its less than 3gb of ram for an a3 trumpet/a6 horn/a3 trombone using a mixed microphone position.


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## Henu (Aug 15, 2020)

NoamL said:


> I remixed this library significantly - mostly altering the balance of microphones



Ooh! Care to share your mic balance settings for that? 
(And I'm also curious to hear what settings you use for CSS if you have them as well?)


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 15, 2020)

The sketch'ining has begun. entering notes with a mouse isnt THAT bad, dont know why i act like it's unreasonable... part of me thinks I should just get a small usb thing with some faders instead of a keyboard - because CC's are akward to draw in

this one includes some trumpets and inspire 1/2 full strings and solo fl/ob/cl


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## Markrs (Aug 15, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> The sketch'ining has begun. entering notes with a mouse isnt THAT bad, dont know why i act like it's unreasonable... part of me thinks I should just get a small usb thing with some faders instead of a keyboard - because CC's are akward to draw in
> 
> this one includes some trumpets and inspire 1/2 full strings and solo fl/ob/cl


 Sounds great!


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 15, 2020)

Markrs said:


> Sounds great!


ironically i just got home and heard it on my yamaha HS8s

So I might have to come up with a mix on real speakers and then copy the settings over hahaha. Sounds kinda brittle and anemic, with some weird mids build up - but that's a consequence of me just poking around at work, with my laptop speakers at *literally* 6%. 

but the articulations are correct, and despite kind of flying blind on the brass it still sounds alright(albeit the thinner tone reminds me of peak williams/hook)

This is normally the kind of mix I achieve with little to no EQ(I do EQ my strings, but nothing else has any EQ or reverb)

I think I just threw some trombones/tuba for a low brass choir - and a solo horn for the 1 part. Not part of my template(just testing some lower string arrangements while I work on my template)


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## VSriHarsha (Aug 15, 2020)

John R Wilson said:


> Yeah CSB is Cinematic Studio Brass  I did have a look at JXL Brass but its so expensive so wont be getting it. It's 900 Euro after tax which is about £860. So for that price I could get CSS, CSB and Infinite Brass.



Wow I didn't know it's £860 with tax. What the hell? No......Why the hell?
It seems the whole forum got good response for IB I know I can't buy right now but yes I can check the demos & I will.


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## Paul Jelfs (Aug 15, 2020)

A great alternative is Caspian Brass ; I have recently just watched the demos and it seems to be so playable and sounds fantastic .
3 patches ; trumpets 3 , horns 6, trombones 3 .

Performance sample libraries are very raw and simple but listen to them and consider them ifyou want a library that sounds great out of the box and can do most things from one patch .

If you like to work quickly and without loads of programming these are definately worth a look; no legato but you can still pull off great solo lines from what Ihave seen and heard


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 15, 2020)

VSriHarsha said:


> Why the hell?



Why not? If I could trade all my libraries I dont use in for like... 25% of the price I would.


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## VSriHarsha (Aug 15, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> Why not? If I could trade all my libraries I dont use in for like... 25% of the price I would.


Damn that's cool!


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 15, 2020)

Paul Jelfs said:


> If you like to work quickly and without loads of programming these are definately worth a look; no legato but you can still pull off great solo lines from what Ihave seen and heard



There aren't any solo patches - so you can't pull off solo lines at all

I'm not convinced of the work flow advantage either, unless you can play everything in without doing multiple passes to get a part right. Same applies to sample modelling/infinite brass/adventure brass/ect. 

caspian is kind of, NOT a good all rounder, only does 1 type of line well - same can be said for adventure brass. Both are good for high energy fanfare type stuff


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## jononotbono (Aug 15, 2020)

I’ve come to the conclusion that multiple Brass libraries are needed for different jobs. I’ve been using JXL Brass a lot recently. I’m glad I own it. But I do keep loading up Cinebrass Core and I just love the sound of that. It’s making me want to buy Cinebrass Pro. And CSB as that seems to be in a similar camp as Cinebrass.

The Brass library I’ve used the most is Spitfire Symphonic Brass. Love that library but it’s not for everything.


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## Cathbad (Aug 15, 2020)

I have CSB and I'm very happy with it. After getting CSS and CSSS, the discount was large so it was about $240 or something. Great sound, big dynamic range, good legato, no issues with bad intonation or poor playing that I've yet found. It nails the basic bread and butter of orchestral writing very well, for a very fair price. My only slight criticisms are that a really good 4th horn player can give you a little extra at the bottom of the range. And lack of a horns a2 patch can throw a spanner in the works when orchestrating a _ff _brass chord. But I'm nitpicking.

I also have solo instruments from Century Brass. They don't have the dynamic range of CSB. They also sound a little odd on their own, but they're fine in the mix. Century Brass has lots of articulations and lots of other ways to customise the instruments. An important plus point over CSB is vibrato control.

Plenty of libraries will serve you well, but there isn't one that does everything brilliantly and nothing even comes close to a section of real players. However, what's much more important is the quality of part writing and orchestration, and the understanding of the capabilities and characteristics of the instruments, regardless of VI.


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## John R Wilson (Aug 15, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> I’ve come to the conclusion that multiple Brass libraries are needed for different jobs. I’ve been using JXL Brass a lot recently. I’m glad I own it. But I do keep loading up Cinebrass Core and I just love the sound of that. It’s making me want to buy Cinebrass Pro. And CSB as that seems to be in a similar camp as Cinebrass.
> 
> The Brass library I’ve used the most is Spitfire Symphonic Brass. Love that library but it’s not for everything.



Yeah I agree, I think it is probably a good idea to have a couple of different brass libraries for different purposes. I did consider Spitfire Symphonic Brass but I was a bit worried about it being a bit too wet sounding for my liking. I do have SCS which I really like and it has become my main string library but I have been unsure about getting the rest of the symphony series. Also, they had that great sale on it not that long ago so I should have gone for it then!!


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## John R Wilson (Aug 15, 2020)

VSriHarsha said:


> Wow I didn't know it's £860 with tax. What the hell? No......Why the hell?
> It seems the whole forum got good response for IB I know I can't buy right now but yes I can check the demos & I will.



Yeah its pretty pricey considering the competition.


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## jononotbono (Aug 15, 2020)

John R Wilson said:


> Yeah I agree, I think it is probably a good idea to have a couple of different brass libraries for different purposes. I did consider Spitfire Symphonic Brass but I was a bit worried about it being a bit too wet sounding for my liking. I do have SCS which I really like and it has become my main string library but I have been unsure about getting the rest of the symphony series. Also, they had that great sale on it not that long ago so I should have gone for it then!!



Well, I love the sound of Air Lyndhurst but you are right because the wetness of those samples (even just with close mics) definitely is a sound. Again the SSO isn’t for everything but god damn it does sound amazing! I’ll definitely be buying Cinebrass Pro and CSB as my next Brass libraries.


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## Geomir (Aug 15, 2020)

Chris Hein Orchestral Brass is as dry as you can get:









Chris Hein Orchestral Brass EXtended | Best Service | bestservice.com


Chris Hein Orchestral Brass EXtended | Collection of 12 Orchestral Brass Instruments & 9 Ensembles | Detailed Solo Instruments | Big & Bold Ensembles | Extensive Articulations | EN




www.bestservice.com





Not cheap, not the most expensive. I own only the Compact version, and I can assure you that all instruments are very dry (when you disable the convo reverb) and they are panned to the center, leaving you with the option to adjust them as you like in your mix.

Sadly not so many detailed video walkthroughs about them, so you must trust your instinct as well!


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## John R Wilson (Aug 15, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Well, I love the sound of Air Lyndhurst but you are right because the wetness of those samples (even just with close mics) definitely is a sound. Again the SSO isn’t for everything but god damn it does sound amazing! I’ll definitely be buying Cinebrass Pro and CSB as my next Brass libraries.



I do really like SCS so might end up getting the full SSO in the end! Gotta hope they do another really good sale on it.


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## Andrew0568 (Aug 15, 2020)

NoamL said:


> imo... there's a ton of options but two libraries stand above the pack.
> 
> *CineBrass* because the sound is just bang on. You can take any score recorded by a great orchestral composer at SONY or FOX and compare it to CineBrass and you'll find the tone of each instrument, the attitude behind the playing, the choice of mics, the sense of space created by the mix of close-mic proximity & Decca tree & room ambience, it's all accurate to the real thing. Even the onboard reverb, which in many libraries is a nuisance, in CineBrass is mixed just as it would be used _at_ SONY. The downside of the library (I don't have it but work with several composers who use it) - it just doesn't seem very agile to me or convincing on passages that switch between articulations.
> 
> ...



If you wouldn't mind, I'd love to see how you remixed CSB. I love the programming and consistency of CSB, but out of the box I feel like the tone and particularly the space needs some tweaking


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## jononotbono (Aug 15, 2020)

John R Wilson said:


> I do really like SCS so might end up getting the full SSO in the end! Gotta hope they do another really good sale on it.




It’s definitely addictive. I find the sound to be so inspiring. I love Teldex as well but it’s a totally different vibe.


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## Beans (Aug 15, 2020)

Cinematic Studio Brass used to be my "main." Now that I have Infinite Brass, I find myself starting with IB, then using CSB as an alternative when I can't quite get something right in IB (which isn't uncommon, but I still start with IB). For example, I prefer the CSB solo horn's tone at full strength over IB's at full strength.

CSB is gorgeous at what it does at a reasonable price, and it will be exciting to one day group their completed offerings together (with the loyalty discounts!). If you don't need the extra instruments from IB and don't mind keyswitching, gosh CSB is beautiful.

There's a thread here that was actually about using Berlin Brass for cinematic composing, in which several individuals posted CSB demos, and they blew me away. Here's that thread:





Is Berlin Brass good for cinematic composing?


I am fighting on getting a brass sample library for cinematic composing and the samples I have in mind is spitfire symphonic brass or Berlin brass. I am more or less aiming for brass sounds that will be good for scores like Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Fantasmic from Disneyland, and the how to...




vi-control.net





If you want the added instruments, IB is awesome. And, they seem to be really committed to providing updates. The Cinematic Studio Series provides updates as well, but not to the extent of the Infinite series.

If I *had* to choose for you, it would depend on how happy you are with your woodwinds and how immediately you desire to pair new woodwinds with a new brass library. It's a shame that Cinematic Studio Woodwinds isn't out yet, because that would possibly make the decision easier.


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## Wunderhorn (Aug 15, 2020)

You might also want to consider 8Dio Century Brass. I have a few solo instruments from that series as well as the ostinatos and I like them. quite flexible in the dynamic range as well.

In regards to Cinebrass, while it has a great sound, it does not do well with quiet. It is better for medium and loud passages.


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## ptram (Aug 15, 2020)

If nobody else has told it, I’ll remind that Cinesamples libraries are currently on sale.

Paolo


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## David Kudell (Aug 15, 2020)

Haven’t used Infinite Brass, but CSB is my go to for trumpets. The rest of it is good too. It needs a bit of reverb added.

JXL Brass though pricy is in a league of its own in my opinion, especially for trombones & horns. It starts at 1 and goes to 11. It’s nice when you want a part to just hit you with a wall of brass, just turn the mod wheel a little more and you have it.

Spitfire Symphonic Brass also sounds really good and comprehensive. Berlin Brass is great if you want every instrument separate - Horn 1, 2, 3, 4 etc. Doesn’t go quite as loud but just beautiful.

Cine Brass Sonore is really nice sounding, a little more old school 90’s melodic movie sound but I like that.

There’s also the Ark 1&2 bundle right now, lots of good brass in that. Lots of options out there, you really can’t go wrong.


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## jononotbono (Aug 15, 2020)

Sample Modelling Brass is also very good. I’m itching to get a better computer to use it again. It’s CPU heavy but amazing if you can run it.


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## lettucehat (Aug 15, 2020)

I haven't tried all of the libraries, not even close actually, but those I haven't tried I've still research quite a bit. The most important thing to grasp right off the bat though is that there is no single library that will cover everything. Some of the important qualities the various libraries have include: out of the box sound, playability, realism, ability to fine tune, brass instrument breadth/depth...

IMO the best options to just grab and go are Cinebrass Core on sale, the Cinebrass bundle on deep sale, or CSB (which almost never goes on sale as far as I can tell). Hollywood Brass is now completely underrated but see what they do with the Opus thing. HB is right with these other two in many categories, and Diamond is dirt cheap now, but usability is from another decade and badly needs updating (hence the much needed update on the way!). The simple little things Cinebrass does to make things playable in real time makes such a huge difference.

I can't speak to the Spitfire stuff as much, but on sale some of them seem like good all-in-ones. But with Symphonic, you are stuck with one big (nice) sound and it doesn't have much in the way of playable patches, and Studio Brass, I just don't know. I've read complaints about quality.

Caspian or Musical Sampling stuff on sale if you have really limited needs from brass. I've seen fantastic mockups with just these guys.

If you assume that there is no one-size-fits-all library, starting with a modestly priced library like these and then adding on in the future is your best bet. Better than pretending that dropping twice as much money on one of the maximalist solutions won't leave you wanting in the future.

The libraries you could then add in the future might be a la carte Orchestral Tools options, Infinite Brass or Sample Modeling for flexibility and playability.

All depends though. Unlimited funds and unlimited time to make hyper-realistic sequences through detailed programming? Or you have some kind of brilliant workflow that speeds up the process of programming a dozen individual parts? Orchestral Tools' options are probably the way to go.

IMO Modern Scoring Brass just never sounded good, or any of the VSL stuff.


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## cqd (Aug 15, 2020)

ALTM said:


> The most important thing to grasp right off the bat though is that there is no single library that will cover everything.



I'd nearly argue at this stage that this is the one thing not to grasp right off the bat.. I know the whole 'BUY EVERYTHING' consumerist mentality of this site is hard to talk yourself out of, but you kind of get to a stage where you've five of everything, and you realise one would have done you, it's actually about the music, not the samples, they're all close enough, and you're down 5 thousand dollars..


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## lettucehat (Aug 15, 2020)

cqd said:


> I'd nearly argue at this stage that this is the one thing not to grasp right off the bat.. I know the whole 'BUY EVERYTHING' consumerist mentality of this site is hard to talk yourself out of, but you kind of get to a stage where you've five of everything, and you realise one would have done you, it's actually about the music, not the samples, they're all close enough, and you're down 5 thousand dollars..



A person can easily understand both of these things. Yes, in hindsight we may be aware of which libraries we needed more than others, but it's really hard to know in advance. I'm not advocating buying everything, not even close. I'm pretty clearly advocating starting with "cheap" libraries that get you 90% of the way there and then taking a wait-and-see approach.

What good does it do to push the alternative? "Yes, one library can do everything, and if you buy one of the biggest, most expensive ones, you'll be safe from buyer's remorse!" Better to spend $250 on CB, and then realize you need something more detailed like SM Trumpets, than spend 800 euro on Berlin Brass and realize... you need SM Trumpets.


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 15, 2020)

I dont know if I agree with that. Once you get the library that does 90+% of what you need it to do(and you really like it), you lose the desire to put anything else into your template. 

I've no desire to supplement my weapons of choice, and I have a ton of libraries in the wings(most of which are quite capable competition). 


if youre entire template is rag-tag bits and pieces from everything, then it's not likely you'll appreciate the simplicity and consistency of having just 1 premium option.


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## Beans (Aug 15, 2020)

ALTM said:


> HB is right with these other two in many categories, and Diamond is dirt cheap now, but usability is from another decade and badly needs updating (hence the much needed update on the way!).



I never got close to developing the skill needed to wrangle HB at even an intermediate level, but the demos from skilled hands are, in my opinion, unmatched by any other library. CSB in some hands comes close, and I love how easy it is to make IB sound good (I don't have personal experience with JXL for comparison). 

But there's something special about a great HB demo.


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## lettucehat (Aug 15, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I dont know if I agree with that. Once you get the library that does 90+% of what you need it to do(and you really like it), you lose the desire to put anything else into your template.
> 
> I've no desire to supplement my weapons of choice, and I have a ton of libraries in the wings(most of which are quite capable competition).
> 
> ...



Would you describe CineBrass or CSB as rag-tag bits and/or pieces?

I've bought three libraries over ten years or so - CineBrass, SM, and Hollywood Brass *Silver*, so I understand the idea of not wanting to add more more more once you get your solid foundation. And that's exactly what I'm advocating he do: get one of the solid foundation libraries and then see. I'm not predicting he will want more.

The "and you really like it" is a huge parenthetical and pretty much the whole motivation behind my advice. We can't return most libraries, hence the cautious approach.


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## John R Wilson (Aug 15, 2020)

David Kudell said:


> Haven’t used Infinite Brass, but CSB is my go to for trumpets. The rest of it is good too. It needs a bit of reverb added.
> 
> JXL Brass though pricy is in a league of its own in my opinion, especially for trombones & horns. It starts at 1 and goes to 11. It’s nice when you want a part to just hit you with a wall of brass, just turn the mod wheel a little more and you have it.
> 
> ...



Their is so much choice! I'm sure JXL brass it is very good as well but its just a bit too much when I could get some of the other libraries for the same price. Think I'm currently leaning towards CSB.


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 15, 2020)

ALTM said:


> Would you describe CineBrass or CSB as rag-tag bits and/or pieces?
> 
> I've bought three libraries over ten years or so - CineBrass, SM, and Hollywood Brass *Silver*, so I understand the idea of not wanting to add more more more once you get your solid foundation. And that's exactly what I'm advocating he do: get one of the solid foundation libraries and then see. I'm not predicting he will want more.
> 
> The "and you really like it" is a huge parenthetical and pretty much the whole motivation behind my advice. We can't return most libraries, hence the cautious approach.



the parenthetical is important, because workflow has a major impact on choice. 

you CAN mock something up with many libraries - but if you don't actually like working with it then it's a problem. I *CAN* mock up whatever I need to with sample modelling, but the workflow of recording individual players can eat up a lot of time, and dealing with creating a good sounding acoustic space without completely smothering it with reverb is frustrating. 

I would describe csb and cinebrass as rag tag bits and pieces of your template looks like this:


horns legato(CSB)

horns staccato (cinebrass)

horns rips (SSB)

horns trills (berlin)


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 15, 2020)

John R Wilson said:


> Their is so much choice! I'm sure JXL brass it is very good as well but its just a bit too much when I could get some of the other libraries for the same price. Think I'm currently leaning towards CSB.


CSB is incredible bang for buck.


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## John R Wilson (Aug 15, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I dont know if I agree with that. Once you get the library that does 90+% of what you need it to do(and you really like it), you lose the desire to put anything else into your template.
> 
> I've no desire to supplement my weapons of choice, and I have a ton of libraries in the wings(most of which are quite capable competition).
> 
> ...



What's are your weapons of choice? I agree that it is ideal and nice to have a simple and consistent template but at the same time it is good to have choices between some different libraries.


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## jononotbono (Aug 15, 2020)

But what do people think of Edirol Orchestral Brass?


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 15, 2020)

John R Wilson said:


> What's are your weapons of choice? I agree that it is ideal and nice to have a simple and consistent template but at the same time it is good to have choices between some different libraries.


there isn't a deeper sampled collection than the berlin series at the moment.

that said, I traded out berlin brass for jxl - and to me it kind of ended up being more consistent along the lines of CSB but with the tone and recording of OT.

5 dynamic layers on almost everything, and the trumpets sound a little weird so you have to program them carefully- but generally the tone is unbeatable. My entire template is generally made with 0 eq or reverb - just using microphones to get a good full tone. 

that said, I like other libraries - just dont have a need for them


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## Zanshin (Aug 15, 2020)

I would like to throw out there that you don't need the whole JXL Brass package. I've been running with Solo Horn, Horns a4, Solo Trombone, Trombones a3, and the Tuba (with SM Trumpet in a teldex ir). 

I'll probably complete the collection if there's a sale that entices me, but the above not counting the SM Trumpet(s) is 349€ and I feel like it's a great little setup. I keep thinking I'll grab the bass trombones as well but haven't yet.


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 15, 2020)

Zanshin said:


> I would like to throw out there that you don't need the whole JXL Brass package. I've been running with Solo Horn, Horns a4, Solo Trombone, Trombones a3, and the Tuba (with SM Trumpet in a teldex ir).
> 
> I'll probably complete the collection if there's a sale that entices me, but the above not counting the SM Trumpet(s) is 349€ and I feel like it's a great little setup. I keep thinking I'll grab the bass trombones as well but haven't yet.


I have no idea what the prices are, but I imagine some combination of a6 horns, a3 trombones, and maybe trumpet ensemble from century brass would probably do quite well on a budget.

no tuba that way - but might be a good cheap foot in the door. Then you can just upgrade to the jxl bundle when you have more money.

then it's not *quite* buying twice.

spatialization wise, century stuff is all recorded centered - but JXL trumpets are kinda recorded center, so it wouldn't be too much different(although I pan JXL)


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## lettucehat (Aug 15, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> the parenthetical is important, because workflow has a major impact on choice.
> 
> you CAN mock something up with many libraries - but if you don't actually like working with it then it's a problem. I *CAN* mock up whatever I need to with sample modelling, but the workflow of recording individual players can eat up a lot of time, and dealing with creating a good sounding acoustic space without completely smothering it with reverb is frustrating.
> 
> ...



... and all of this above is exactly why I recommended getting CineBrass or CSB or Hollywood Brass.

I didn't say get Sample Modeling. I didn't say get three distinct comprehensive libraries (costing $1500+ altogether) to create a template with a different library for each articulation. It's beyond me how not one but two people could interpret what I wrote so bizarrely.

You may have had workflow in mind when you added "and you really like it", but my point is that people don't know how much they're going to like a library until they get it. It's a big if, and I'm suggesting moderately priced but comprehensive libraries as a sensible approach that minimizes risk. Not everybody needs JXL or Berlin, especially if they're at the "what should I get?" stage. So I say pay 1/3rd the price and then see if you need anything down the line.

Edit: I did also suggest a la carte OT instruments, assuming Berlin gets that treatment sooner or later. No disagreement that getting core soloists/ensembles from JXL will leave almost everybody happy.


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## VSriHarsha (Aug 15, 2020)

John R Wilson said:


> I could get some of the other libraries for the same price.


You can get two to three real good libraries for that price I guess.


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## VSriHarsha (Aug 15, 2020)

Cathbad said:


> Plenty of libraries will serve you well, but there isn't one that does everything brilliantly and nothing even comes close to a section of real players.



But most of the libraries were recorded with real players right?

So I guess the question is in peoples ears.


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## VSriHarsha (Aug 15, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I dont know if I agree with that. Once you get the library that does 90+% of what you need it to do(and you really like it), you lose the desire to put anything else into your template.
> 
> I've no desire to supplement my weapons of choice, and I have a ton of libraries in the wings(most of which are quite capable competition).
> 
> ...


That does make sense.


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## VSriHarsha (Aug 15, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> But what do people think of Edirol Orchestral Brass?


Those aren’t faded out?


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 15, 2020)

ALTM said:


> ... and all of this above is exactly why I recommended getting CineBrass or CSB or Hollywood Brass.
> 
> I didn't say get Sample Modeling. I didn't say get three distinct comprehensive libraries (costing $1500+ altogether) to create a template with a different library for each articulation. It's beyond me how not one but two people could interpret what I wrote so bizarrely.
> 
> ...




Funny thing about the thing you listed, and why we agree that "and you really like" is important -is that they all 3 have thorns. 

CSB is probably the most consistent and capable of the 3, but has (arguably) the worst tone

Cinebrass has probably the best tone, but least capable

HWB has great tone, and is very capable, but organized atrociously so it's a pain to work with. 

all 3 could do an impressive mockup, but CSB you'll be spending time getting a better tone - HWB you'll be spending longer programming, and cinebrass you'll be spending longer trying to get it to approximate things it' can't do well. 

all of those downsides are really minor in the grand scheme of things- and any CAN achieve great music, but which of those downsides do you feel like working with the most?

JXL crossfades are like 90% as good as CSB, with more consistency when it comes to the other articulations(like shorts) - and has excellent tone, but it's missing some articulations that other libraries have(trills and flutter) and the cost.

but it also has larger than normal section sizes - and if you don't need them, it's kind of just adding to the price. 

Berlin's cost is also a bit of a roadblock - but thebiggest issue is the resource requirement to take advantage of it's strengths.


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## mussnig (Aug 15, 2020)

VSriHarsha said:


> But most of the libraries were recorded with real players right?
> 
> So I guess the question is in peoples ears.



I guess he meant that no library or mockup is going to beat real musicians playing the music you wrote. Maybe in terms of sound but definitely not regarding realism.


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## Kony (Aug 16, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> spatialization wise, century stuff is all recorded centered


I thought so too, but watched an 8Dio demo today where Troels said they were recorded in situ.





ProfoundSilence said:


> no tuba that way


There's a solo tuba (and solo cimbasso) in Century Solo Brass btw


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 16, 2020)

Kony said:


> I thought so too, but watched an 8Dio demo today where Troels said they were recorded in situ.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



cant watch now, bit iirc it was recorded centered and then new mixed mics were baked panned? 

@Troels Folmann maybe my memory is fuzzy but surely you would remember because you've likely spent a thousand or more hours on century brass


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## Kony (Aug 16, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> cant watch now, bit iirc it was recorded centered and then new mixed mics were baked panned?
> 
> @Troels Folmann maybe my memory is fuzzy but surely you would remember because you've likely spent a thousand or more hours on century brass


I think it was useful to clarify for the OP that Century Brass are panned, whether baked or recorded, as your previous comment gave the impression that they were centered. I know you said recorded centered in that comment, but it gave the impression that the instruments aren't in situ out of the box (compared to other libs) when they are.


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 16, 2020)

Kony said:


> I think it was useful to clarify for the OP that Century Brass are panned, whether baked or recorded, as your previous comment gave the impression that they were centered. I know you said recorded centered in that comment, but it gave the impression that the instruments aren't in situ out of the box (compared to other libs) when they are.


Well for me, there is a difference - and to my memory, century brass was recorded centered.

" 2 new microphone positions in natural orchestral seating, "

This is on the 2.0 page, which seems to re-enforce how I remembered it. I've been wrong before, but yes - it has panned mix mics now, but that has it's own sonic pros/cons, and it's important for some to know if it was recorded centered or in situ.

it'll be sonically different if it's recorded centered and then panned - than if it were recorded in situ. Even if you plan on changing the panning yourself - knowing how your samples are recorded is pretty important!

not knocking the library, troels is too damn talented - but it's important to make the distinction if something was recorded centered and panned, vs recorded in situ.


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## Batrawi (Aug 16, 2020)

Probably not the best "sound" and probably not the best "playability" but... IB gives you THE BEST sound AND playability combination IMO, which makes you focus more on composing without worrying at all about the endless journey to find the perfect sound or the perfect playability which both come at the cost of each other in all current libraries and probably the libraries to come in the market!


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 16, 2020)

Batrawi said:


> Probably not the best "sound" and probably not the best "playability" but... IB gives you THE BEST sound AND playability combination IMO, which makes you focus more on composing without worrying at all about the endless journey to find the perfect sound or the perfect playability which both come at the cost of each other in all current libraries and probably the libraries to come in the market!



I mean, SM is like 5% more playable? but IB takes a lot less work in general.

hes significantly dented the extra work load as well by adding some smarter humanization features.


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## Scamper (Aug 16, 2020)

John R Wilson said:


> My main libraries I'm using for strings and woods currently have been SCS and VSL woods, both of these libraries I really like but I would quite like to add an additional brass library which is quite flexible in regards to mixing in well with my other libraries and can act as a main brass library.



Since you're using SCS and VSL woods, you can check out this short demo I've made a little while ago using those and CSB, if you want to see how it fits in.



Otherwise, I can only agree with what has already been said.


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## KEM (Aug 16, 2020)

Save up and get JXL


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## VSriHarsha (Aug 16, 2020)

mussnig said:


> I guess he meant that no library or mockup is going to beat real musicians playing the music you wrote. Maybe in terms of sound but definitely not regarding realism.


Oh ok.


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## pcarrilho (Aug 16, 2020)

Brass Libs i have:

- Berlin Bras
- Cinebrass (core and pro)
- BBCSO Core (full Orchestra Lib)
- East West Hollywood Brass (Diamond)


My go to Lib, for every day composing: East West HB (yes! True!). If i miss something, i complement (layaring) with aditional libs.
Brlin Brass i use if i am writing a very soft piece.


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## Cathbad (Aug 16, 2020)

VSriHarsha said:


> But most of the libraries were recorded with real players right?
> 
> So I guess the question is in peoples ears.





mussnig said:


> I guess he meant that no library or mockup is going to beat real musicians playing the music you wrote. Maybe in terms of sound but definitely not regarding realism.



Yes, that's right.

A section of really good brass players will balance levels and sound quality automatically for you. They'll give you an almost infinite range of articulations and dynamics - no need to worry about them not matching, or phasing or funny crossfades. They'll play pretty close to just temperament too: good luck getting a VI to do that. 

With VIs, even to get close to realistic results you need several expensive libraries, lots of time to get to know them and lots of time to do the actual programming. With a real section, you create score and parts, book the players, book the recording venue and technicians. The session might only be a couple of hours.

I believe and hope we might see the pendulum starting to swing back towards the latter approach, because it achieves better results for less money/time cost. But I reiterate: quality of part writing and orchestration is far, far more important than the VI you use, or which individual players are in which seats at your session (within reason, of course).


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## John R Wilson (Aug 16, 2020)

Scamper said:


> Since you're using SCS and VSL woods, you can check out this short demo I've made a little while ago using those and CSB, if you want to see how it fits in.
> 
> 
> 
> Otherwise, I can only agree with what has already been said.





Thanks for this. That's really helpful in hearing SCS, VSL woods and CSB in the same mix. It sounds great. What setting did you use to place the instrument and mic/reverb settings?


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## John R Wilson (Aug 16, 2020)

Batrawi said:


> Probably not the best "sound" and probably not the best "playability" but... IB gives you THE BEST sound AND playability combination IMO, which makes you focus more on composing without worrying at all about the endless journey to find the perfect sound or the perfect playability which both come at the cost of each other in all current libraries and probably the libraries to come in the market!



This is something that really attracted me to IB and i'm still considering this one. However, I do think i'm starting to learn toward getting CSB. JXL may be great but it is out for me currently as I still cant find reason to spend £860 on a single brass library when their is many other cheaper options that seem to also be very good and a lot cheaper!!


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## VSriHarsha (Aug 16, 2020)

Cathbad said:


> Yes, that's right.
> 
> A section of really good brass players will balance levels and sound quality automatically for you. They'll give you an almost infinite range of articulations and dynamics - no need to worry about them not matching, or phasing or funny crossfades. They'll play pretty close to just temperament too: good luck getting a VI to do that.
> 
> ...


Real players always good.


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## John R Wilson (Aug 16, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> Funny thing about the thing you listed, and why we agree that "and you really like" is important -is that they all 3 have thorns.
> 
> CSB is probably the most consistent and capable of the 3, but has (arguably) the worst tone
> 
> ...




Why do you feel CSB has the worst tone out of these? I've always been a little unsure regarding the Strings tone in CSS but the brass sounds pretty nice in regards to the tone from what i've heard from it.


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## dcoscina (Aug 16, 2020)

@*pcarrilho *I get a lot of support using Berlin Bras... especially as I've gotten older and my music has begun to sag. 

Sorry, I let myself out now....

But seriously, I find Berlin Brass to be exceptionally good and flexible for most work. I guess most here aren't writing with the intention of a group eventually recording right? JXL has some nice points to it (I really dislike the trumpets to be honest) but good luck getting that sound out of a real group. Unless you are a big Hollywood composer with a budget for those kind of resources...

Berlin Brass delivers a fairly accurate sound of brass that isn't over hyped. Same with BBCSO. 

CineBrass still remains a personal fave and I also like CSB a lot too though it's a little light on variety.


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## mcalis (Aug 16, 2020)

I'll chip in another vote for CSB though I should add up front that I hear plenty good things about IB too. I just don't happen to own it myself so I can't say anything about it.

For CSB, not everyone likes the default mix. The sound of the Trackdown scoring stage where CSB was recorded isn't a brass match made in heaven like the sony stage is. That said, CSB is very affordable, can be sculpted into a much larger sound and will cover probably most of your brass writing needs. Most important of all however: CSB is consistent. I could rave about the legato or tell you about how nice Alex Wallbank is in supporting his products and his customers (loyalty discounts), but CSS and CSB are legitimately the only sample libraries where I haven't had to tweak volumes between articulations to get them balanced.

Also, with some EQ the free panagement plugin and that one TOD AO IR floating around here, you can get much different sound. Have a listen:


I am using the close and room mics here. Still tweaking the settings on the trombones, but I am personally quite happy with how spacious I can get CSB to sound when I want to.




Cathbad said:


> ...
> 
> My only slight criticisms are that a really good 4th horn player can give you a little extra at the bottom of the range. And lack of a horns a2 patch can throw a spanner in the works when orchestrating a _ff _brass chord. But I'm nitpicking.
> 
> ...


@Cathbad You can get a little more bottom by using the transposition trick. Load an additional instance of the solo horn and tune it down 2 semitones. Set your track to transpose incoming midi up by 2 semitones and reassign the keyswitches in the interface so that they're the same as all your other CSB instruments. To my ears, you can get a very warm, full sound this way that should be able to fill in as a 4th horn.


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## Scamper (Aug 16, 2020)

John R Wilson said:


> Thanks for this. That's really helpful in hearing SCS, VSL woods and CSB in the same mix. It sounds great. What setting did you use to place the instrument and mic/reverb settings?



For this example and because SCS and Spitfire Percussion are the roomiest, I used tree and a lot of close mics for those and adjusted the other libraries to match that sound a bit better.
For CSB, I generally only use the rooms mics. The sound quite pleasant and have the greatest sense of space. Then a good amount of reverb, about 1.6s delay and 45% mix.
For VSL, just a whole load of reverb, about 1.8s delay and 65% mix.

The biggiest issue about this combination is probably SCS due to the smaller chamber size and sound. So CSB's dynamic range has to be restrained quite a lot and I just used solo instruments to avoid overpowering other sections.


By the way, I think BBCSO percussion fits CSB quite well, until there's Cinematic Studio Percussion or something else.


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## John R Wilson (Aug 16, 2020)

Scamper said:


> For this example and because SCS and Spitfire Percussion are the roomiest, I used tree and a lot of close mics for those and adjusted the other libraries to match that sound a bit better.
> For CSB, I generally only use the rooms mics. The sound quite pleasant and have the greatest sense of space. Then a good amount of reverb, about 1.6s delay and 45% mix.
> For VSL, just a whole load of reverb, about 1.8s delay and 65% mix.
> 
> ...



I think I am probably going to go with CSB! Sounds great in your example and seems to mix pretty well with the other libraries. Have you tried mixing in CSS in your example above with SCS with the VSL woodwinds and CSB for brass? Would be interested in hearing that.


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## Scamper (Aug 16, 2020)

John R Wilson said:


> I think I am probably going to go with CSB! Sounds great in your example and seems to mix pretty well with the other libraries. Have you tried mixing in CSS in your example above with SCS with the VSL woodwinds and CSB for brass? Would be interested in hearing that.



I can fix up the CSS+SCS version in a few hours and if that goes quick, I can also try CSS alone + BBC percussion with a dialed down room.

Regarding the initial question, it seems to be a tough choice between CSB and Infinite Brass though. While I don't own it, Infinite Brass sounds great after the updates and the playability is surely great. I would imagine it's also pretty flexible to mix, but listening to the examples, I prefer the larger hall reverbs with it. It looks like it's a personal matter and tradeoff between playability and sound, if you prefer CSB.


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## John R Wilson (Aug 16, 2020)

Scamper said:


> I can fix up the CSS+SCS version in a few hours and if that goes quick, I can also try CSS alone + BBC percussion with a dialed down room.
> 
> Regarding the initial question, it seems to be a tough choice between CSB and Infinite Brass though. While I don't own it, Infinite Brass sounds great after the updates and the playability is surely great. I would imagine it's also pretty flexible to mix, but listening to the examples, I prefer the larger hall reverbs with it. It looks like it's a personal matter and tradeoff between playability and sound, if you prefer CSB.



That would be awesome, really appreciate that. Really helpful the examples you post!! It is quite a tough one deciding between IB and CSB. On one hand Infinite brass does look great and it does seem to offer something quite unique and different in regards to its playability, but I also like the look and sound of CSB.


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## VSriHarsha (Aug 17, 2020)

I just looked at IB I found those are lite on CPU. Although I couldn’t find the exact requirements on the website it seems a good deal, if works on the old machines. I am still checking it but the Price compared to the other developers, it’s quite high. And I couldn’t find any details about the articulations. I gotta listen to the demos. Oh it won’t take much space & memory too right? That’s a great idea. I can’t buy now but it looks promising.


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 17, 2020)

VSriHarsha said:


> I just looked at IB I found those are lite on CPU. Although I couldn’t find the exact requirements on the website it seems a good deal, if works on the old machines. I am still checking it but the Price compared to the other developers, it’s quite high. And I couldn’t find any details about the articulations. I gotta listen to the demos. Oh it won’t take much space & memory too right? That’s a great idea. I can’t buy now but it looks promising.



It doesnt really use articulations - the point is you use multiple controllers and play it in live.


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## VSriHarsha (Aug 17, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> It doesnt really use articulations - the point is you use multiple controllers and play it in live.


I feel like that’s new I mean implementing that to a sample library. In a Live concert of course but taking it to a sample library? Still new to me, may be.

Let’s say I imported a midi file with dynamics & expression notated already. So how would it treat?

Although I gotta say I love experimenting & new things so yea.


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## Beans (Aug 17, 2020)

VSriHarsha said:


> Let’s say I imported a midi file with dynamics & expression notated already. So how would it treat?



The answer is, "it depends." It depends on velocity, note duration, several other control values, other overlapping notes (a "trill" isn't a patch, for example, it's a way of playing), and probably more.

An import could sound great with no tweaking, or there could be weird slurring or excessive vibrato all over the place.

Despite all of this ability to control, Infinite Brass is very easy to use.


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## Kirk1701 (Aug 17, 2020)

Has the OP considered the latest OT Metropolis 1&2 and Berline Inspire 1&2? They've recently been ported to Sine and as such are also a la carte. The complete Sine bundles are also discounted.


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## Scamper (Aug 18, 2020)

John R Wilson said:


> That would be awesome...



Sorry for delay, but now it's demo time. I've prepared a couple of versions.

*V1 - SCS*
This is pretty much what I already posted, but I changed a few things in other tracks, so this is an update.
SCS + CSB + VSL SE Woods + SF Percussion

*V2 - SCS+CSS Layered*
This is, as requested, SCS and CSS layered. Otherwise it's the same track.
In the end, SCS was using flautando, so it's just con sordino for CSS, but it works quite well.

*V3 - Dry(er) Studio Version (Just CSS)*
This is CSS + CSB + VSL SE Wood + BBCSO Percussion.
I turned off almost all the reverb, except for VSL and some master glue.

*V4 - Custom Mix (Just CSS)*
Finally a version, that's more like my usual template and it's more of a larger hall sound similar to the first versions. CSS + CSB + VSL SE Woods + SF Percussion
Just the CSS basses are layered with SCS to boost them, I've got some custom EQs for a brighter CSS and a mellower CSB.


*Some thoughts:*
While I love SCS (the sound, the shorts and the hall), using CSS is once again such an upgrade in expression, especially for the legato passages of course. Layering both are complementing each other quite well, but requires a bit too much work and ressources for my taste.

BBCSO Percussion has a nice sound for the studio sized CSS/CSB, but is lacking depth compared to Spitfire Percussion. So some articulations are missing and the tonal range is also smaller with BBCSO Percussion.

Also...
I'm working on a direct comparison for CSB and Infinite Brass based on some IB demos. That should follow later on.


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## I like music (Aug 18, 2020)

mcalis said:


> I'll chip in another vote for CSB though I should add up front that I hear plenty good things about IB too. I just don't happen to own it myself so I can't say anything about it.
> 
> For CSB, not everyone likes the default mix. The sound of the Trackdown scoring stage where CSB was recorded isn't a brass match made in heaven like the sony stage is. That said, CSB is very affordable, can be sculpted into a much larger sound and will cover probably most of your brass writing needs. Most important of all however: CSB is consistent. I could rave about the legato or tell you about how nice Alex Wallbank is in supporting his products and his customers (loyalty discounts), but CSS and CSB are legitimately the only sample libraries where I haven't had to tweak volumes between articulations to get them balanced.
> 
> ...



Thanks for this! BTW what Todd ao IR are you referring to? Are you able to point me please? Couldn't find it!


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## John R Wilson (Aug 18, 2020)

Scamper said:


> Sorry for delay, but now it's demo time. I've prepared a couple of versions.
> 
> *V1 - SCS*
> This is pretty much what I already posted, but I changed a few things in other tracks, so this is an update.
> ...



Really helpful thanks for taking the time to do this! I'm unsure which I like more between the SCS and the dry studio version using just CSS. I quite like the clarity of SCS over CSS version but as expected CSS is much more fuller sounding and has the more expressive legato.


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## Casiquire (Aug 19, 2020)

Scamper said:


> Sorry for delay, but now it's demo time. I've prepared a couple of versions.
> 
> *V1 - SCS*
> This is pretty much what I already posted, but I changed a few things in other tracks, so this is an update.
> ...


Thanks so much for sharing this. It's so helpful! I have to disagree just a bit though, CSS sounds dark and muddy compared to the clarity of SCS. I could easily differentiate all the parts with SCS and in that way the expression benefited too


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## John R Wilson (Aug 19, 2020)

Casiquire said:


> Thanks so much for sharing this. It's so helpful! I have to disagree just a bit though, CSS sounds dark and muddy compared to the clarity of SCS. I could easily differentiate all the parts with SCS and in that way the expression benefited too



I think I agree with you and think that I may have preferred the SCS version than the CSS version after listening back some more. Their is more clarity in SCS version.


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 19, 2020)

trackdown has this weird mid buildup - so any examples using CSS/CSB/ect should honestly receive a healthy dose of EQ and a smart mic blend. the other problem with CSS is that it artificually turnicates the tails - so you have to actually add reverb(which reduces clarity)


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## Scamper (Aug 19, 2020)

Casiquire said:


> I have to disagree just a bit though, CSS sounds dark and muddy compared to the clarity of SCS. I could easily differentiate all the parts with SCS and in that way the expression benefited too



Totally, I also find CSS dark and more muddy and like much of the hall sound of SCS. It's unfortunate, that we don't have a perfect library for everything, but so far we can only go for preferences and priorities. I do prefer the expression and handling of CSS though.
The layering of CSS and SCS makes good use of both strenghts, I think, but I'd like to avoid layering. If you can layer with CSSS though, that should help a bit with clarity and doesn't cost more work, just ressources.



Anyways, back to the topic of *CSB vs Infinite Brass*.

I was intrigued by some Infinite Brass examples posted in the Infinite thread a while ago. So, I wanted to see how CSB does with these sort of tracks. (There's a bit of EQ on CSB)

I used these demos:





Infinite Series (Aaron Venture) thread


The theory, from what I've studied, says that horns are quieter than other standard brass instruments in real life. For example balancewise 1 Trombone = 2 Horns, 1 Trumpet = 2 Horns, 1 Tuba = 2 Horns. So why don't you raise the number of the horns instead of directly raise them? I have 12 horns...




vi-control.net









Infinite Series (Aaron Venture) thread


Absolutely love the update! What an awesome job Aaron did! For anyone interested: I just created a very short demo. A little piece with different styles that just happened to come together while I was playing around with 1.4. Settings and sound are right out of the box, I changed no mic...




vi-control.net




Hope that's okay with @Saxer and @Dan.

My thoughts:
These tracks are clearly a strength of IB and CSB can only approach it somewhat. Of course, CSB also isn't that playable and requires more timing and articulation adjustments. 
The instruments in IB also have a larger range of notes and the low brass can go down a few notes deeper, for example. Also, because CSB just has a single solo Horn/Trumpet/Trombone, I just panned them a bit, but basically used the same instrument for all parts, which isn't as great.

For the "One Point Four 2" demo, it's a little more even. Here and with other sort of tracks, I do prefer CSB and its sound. Otherwise, CSB is still solid, consistent and sounds great.

So, I'm tempted by IB and will probably get it as an addition later on, but right now I'm fine with CSB.


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## Casiquire (Aug 19, 2020)

Scamper said:


> Totally, I also find CSS dark and more muddy and like much of the hall sound of SCS. It's unfortunate, that we don't have a perfect library for everything, but so far we can only go for preferences and priorities. I do prefer the expression and handling of CSS though.
> The layering of CSS and SCS makes good use of both strenghts, I think, but I'd like to avoid layering. If you can layer with CSSS though, that should help a bit with clarity and doesn't cost more work, just ressources.
> 
> 
> ...


You know, I even forgot this thread was about IB at all. Thanks for these demos too. I think IB is pretty much a brass favorite in these forums and it does seem endlessly flexible.


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## Ermac (Aug 19, 2020)

I'm sorry but... I see no love AT ALL for Audiobro Modern Scoring Brass, and it's blowing my mind.

I'm searching for a brass library right now and, judging only from the sound/price ratio, this would be my top choice at the moment (Infinite Brass would come right after, to my ears the high frequencies seem a little dead when compared to MSB, but the control on the instruments is mindblowing, realistic and expressive beyond belief !).

The problem is that I'm not a specialist of -how to say this ?- this genre of sound libraries, I don't produce cinematic or realistic music : I'm an electronic music producer. I'm looking for something very realistic, but VERY modern sounding. And since this will be covered with electronic sounds, I won't pay for ultimate top brass libraries that cost $900, that's clearly not what I need. $500 is my limit.

At the moment I own EastWest Brass Gold and find it difficult to work with it for electronic music : the fast tempos of EDM need a LOT of rework on the notes programming, the notes seem to come at random moments. I also own a couple of 8Dio brass libraries (not bad, but that's a couple of instruments, I need more), and all Performance Samples brass libraries (clearly too dark for electronic music, but still usable).

Could you please tell me why nobody seem to care about Audiobro MSB please ?


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## CT (Aug 19, 2020)

Scamper said:


> Totally, I also find CSS dark and more muddy and like much of the hall sound of SCS. It's unfortunate, that we don't have a perfect library for everything, but so far we can only go for preferences and priorities. I do prefer the expression and handling of CSS though.
> The layering of CSS and SCS makes good use of both strenghts, I think, but I'd like to avoid layering. If you can layer with CSSS though, that should help a bit with clarity and doesn't cost more work, just ressources.
> 
> 
> ...



Man, I _vastly_ prefer CSB here, for all these, especially the low brass... might need that one eventually!


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## Scamper (Aug 19, 2020)

Ermac said:


> Could you please tell me why nobody seem to care about Audiobro MSB please ?



Good question.

There's some good stuff about MSB and the available features and instruments are flexible and extensive. But it seems to require more work to make it shine, the release wasn't that solid and there still are just 2 demos available, which are a bit one sided and personally, I'm not much a fan of the sound compared to the alternatives at smaller prices.

I've seen some members who swear by it, but generally it didn't seem to get much traction. Maybe it's right for you, if you like the sound, features and are ok with the drawbacks.

If you dare, you can check out the discussion thread for more opinions.





Audiobro Modern Scoring Brass (MSB)


Does anyone know how long the intro price is going on for? Also, does anyone know if Audio Bro offers an Edu Discount on their products? Thinking of getting on Modern Scoring Brass myself. Nearly bought it yesterday for $499 so.. glad I didn't




vi-control.net


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## Scamper (Aug 19, 2020)

Mike T said:


> Man, I _vastly_ prefer CSB here, for all these, especially the low brass... might need that one eventually!



I didn't expect that.
Even I, who wants CSB to be better, prefer IB in the demos, especially the low ends, which sounds much thicker to me with a nice smacking sound. Except for "One Point Four 2", where I do prefer CSB a tad.


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## CT (Aug 19, 2020)

The low brass in IB is the weakest part of the library to my ears.


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## Beans (Aug 19, 2020)

Scamper said:


> There's some good stuff about MSB and the available features and instruments are flexible and extensive. But it seems to require more work to make it shine, the release wasn't that solid and there still are just 2 demos available, which are a bit one sided and personally, I'm not much a fan of the sound compared to the alternatives at smaller prices.



Demos have been a bit of an issue for Audiobro, I suppose. I own and love Genesis, but the demos are fairly weak compared to Arva by Strezov. The Genesis demos show more variety than the MSB demos do, but don't have the same magic to them as competitor demos.


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## Henk (Aug 21, 2020)

Does anyone use Hollywood Brass?


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## I like music (Aug 21, 2020)

Henk said:


> Does anyone use Hollywood Brass?


Lots of experienced people. Check out the LOTR mockup thread. Great great sound!


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## Henk (Aug 21, 2020)

Actually, BRASS INS has a lot of work to do right now


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## mcalis (Aug 26, 2020)

I like music said:


> Thanks for this! BTW what Todd ao IR are you referring to? Are you able to point me please? Couldn't find it!


I meant to get back to you earlier, but here it is.

I do mean to make a video at some point on how I have CSB/CSS set up at the moment. I am just not completely satisfied with how the trombones and trumpets sit in the space just yet and I am sort of waiting for CSW to arrive first too.


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 26, 2020)

I've been recently making a lightweight template for my laptop for sketching, and I do say, I can't help but feel bad for anyone who's got stability issues using JXL brass.

this is just the AMXL tree, I'm not going to win any mixing awards for this

edit: tricked again. it sounds soooooooo different on my laptop I'd probably have better results recording mono mic'ing up my laptop LOL


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## I like music (Aug 26, 2020)

mcalis said:


> I meant to get back to you earlier, but here it is.
> 
> I do mean to make a video at some point on how I have CSB/CSS set up at the moment. I am just not completely satisfied with how the trombones and trumpets sit in the space just yet and I am sort of waiting for CSW to arrive first too.



You absolute legend! Thanks a million. Would love to see that video btw.


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## Casiquire (Aug 26, 2020)

Henk said:


> Does anyone use Hollywood Brass?


It's extremely popular here


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## ummon (Aug 26, 2020)

The past few days I've been watching demos, walkthroughs and comparisons between brass libaries and I think I'm getting both CSB core and Cinebrass. 

CSB sounds very polished and consistent. I couldn't hear any volume changes between layers or different notes - and the studio ambience keeps the noise level at low. Where as in Cinebrass the ambience is a part of the sound. You can also hear some extra noise and artefacts reverberated in that stage so it sounds a bit more like live recording in a good way. Of course this is just a speculation based on demos etc. but I guess these two libraries would work well together (layered as well as their timbre is so different).


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## Ermac (Aug 29, 2020)

Scamper said:


> Good question.
> 
> I've seen some members who swear by it, but generally it didn't seem to get much traction. Maybe it's right for you, if you like the sound, features and are ok with the drawbacks.
> 
> ...


After listening to a lot of videos, I've completely changed my mind and forgotten about Audiobro Modern Scoring Bass in favour of Cinesamples Cinebrass Core.

Thanks for your help, the fact that it's a ressource hog (found this information in the thread) made me rethink my choice and want to listen to demos again. And Cinebrass sounds simply way better imho.

I've also bought Horns From Hell btw.


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## hdsmile (Oct 29, 2020)

Scamper said:


> I used these demos:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the 'One Point Four 2' just sounds great, what you're DAW settings, Scripts...etc. Did you use only CSB library reverb? Thanks


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## Scamper (Oct 30, 2020)

hdsmile said:


> the 'One Point Four 2' just sounds great, what you're DAW settings, Scripts...etc. Did you use only CSB library reverb? Thanks



For CSB, I use a bit of EQ to mellow it out and reverb, but it's pretty much the out of the box sound. Not a fan of the reverb within CSB though, so I use FabFilter Pro-R.
For mics, I only use the room mics of CSB. Sometimes, I like the warmer sound of the main mics, but the feel a lot more constricted and narrow to me.

I'll add the same demo without any effects with just the room mics and just the main mics for comparison.

Here are my settings:


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## hdsmile (Oct 30, 2020)

Scamper said:


> For CSB, I use a bit of EQ to mellow it out and reverb, but it's pretty much the out of the box sound. Not a fan of the reverb within CSB though, so I use FabFilter Pro-R.
> For mics, I only use the room mics of CSB. Sometimes, I like the warmer sound of the main mics, but the feel a lot more constricted and narrow to me.
> 
> I'll add the same demo without any effects with just the room mics and just the main mics for comparison.



thanks Scamper, I also find that the room mic sounds better, I like it. I tried this with multiple reverbs: EW Spacer 2, LX480 etc... and since I Logic user also with Space Designer +'Todd AO Conductor' so... everywhere sounds quite decent. 
I would still like to ask you about modulation, expression and articulations how do you deal with it?


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## Scamper (Oct 30, 2020)

hdsmile said:


> I would still like to ask you about modulation, expression and articulations how do you deal with it?



Sure. Generally I record everything live on keyboard and edit a bit afterwards, so I fit my workflow for that.
For CSB (and CSS) I use the lowest octave to switch articulations and since i'm using Cubase, it's integrated in the expression maps, which trigger the articulations by CC58 in CSB. Logic has something similar, right? Articulation Sets? 

To play the instrument, I just use CC1/modwheel and velocity. Due to the high dynamic range in CSB, this is fine for me. Only if a library doesn't get quiet enough, I use CC11/expression to lower volume.
The most work to edit the MIDI after recording live is usually the shorts in fast passages and quick changes between shorts, which are placed in the expression map lane.

Here are my keyswitches: 
(The CC1 sliders in CSB like for selection of shorts should be deactivated for this to work properly)





This is how it's setup in my MIDI editor. It's the beginning of the One Point Four 1 demo, Horn 1.





Hope this is what you asked.

Also, I still have to try out that Todd AO IR.


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## hdsmile (Oct 30, 2020)

Scamper said:


> Hope this is what you asked.
> 
> Also, I still have to try out that Todd AO IR.



yeah absolutely, thank you!


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