# Cheaper alternative for Auralex panels



## Peter Emanuel Roos (Sep 20, 2006)

Hi friends,

I have a new working/music room on the top floor of my new house, that luckily has a much better sound than the living room in my previous apartment. 

It's a funny, because only a few houses in the street have added one floor, so my bedroom and working room have no neighbor rooms next to them!

The room is not yet finished with enough furnò‚˜   E:Y‚˜   E:Z‚˜   E:[‚˜   E:\‚˜   E:]‚˜   E:^‚˜   E:_‚˜   E:`‚˜   E:a‚˜   E:b‚˜   E:c‚˜   E:d‚˜   E:e‚˜   E:f‚˜   E:g‚˜   E:h‚˜   E:i‚˜   E:j‚˜   E:k‚˜   E:l‚˜   E:m‚˜   E:n‚˜   E:o‚˜   E‚˜   E:q‚˜   E:r‚˜   E:s‚˜   E:t‚˜   E:u‚˜   E:v‚˜   E:w‚˜   E:x‚˜   E:y‚˜   E:z‚˜   E:{‚˜   E:|‚˜   E:}‚™   E:~‚™   E:‚™   E:€‚™   E:‚™   E:‚‚™   E:ƒ‚™   E:„‚™   E:…‚™   E:†‚™   E:‡‚™   E:ˆ‚™   E:‰‚™   E:Š‚™   E:‹‚™   E:Œ‚™   E:‚™   E:Ž‚™   E:‚™   E:‚™   E:‘‚™   E:’‚™   E:“‚™   E:”‚™   E:•‚™   E:–‚™   E:—‚™   E:˜‚™   E:™‚™   E:š‚™   E:›‚š   E:œ‚š   E:‚š   E:ž‚š   E:Ÿ‚š   E: ‚š   E:¡‚š   E:¢‚š   E:£‚š   E:¤‚š   E:¥‚š   E:¦‚š   E:§‚š   E:¨‚š   E:©‚š   E:ª‚š   E:«‚š   E:¬‚š   E:­‚š   E:®‚š   E:¯‚š   E:°‚š   E:±‚š   E:²‚š   E:³‚š   E:´‚š   E:µ‚š   E:¶‚š   E:·‚š   E:¸‚š   E:¹‚š   E:º‚š   E:»‚š   E:¼‚š   E:½‚š   E:¾‚š   E:¿‚š   E:À‚š   E:Á‚š   E:Â‚š   E:Ã‚š   E:Ä‚š   E:Å‚š   E:Æ‚š   E:Ç‚š   E:È              ò‚›   E:Ê‚›   E:Ë‚›   E:Ì‚›   E:Í‚›


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Sep 20, 2006)

Hi Paul,

How are you doing man? Have you already played with the Samplicity IR's?

Well, I was actually NOT planning to spend that amount :wink: 

Maybe someone has links to DIY sites with tips for cheaper stuff.

One of Auralex' strengths is the high density of their "foam" products - I think that the regular stuff that is sold in DIY shops as acoustical material is not efficient enough.

Maybe I will try to design some kind of panels myself - there are a few basic principles that you need to follow. Absorption, dispersion, placement, etc.

I will first start with some white noise, spike and sweep recordings at my listening position to find echoes and nodes.

I know that Ethan's traps are excellent, but I indeed fear the shipping costs...

Thanks for the suggestions!


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## Frederick Russ (Sep 20, 2006)

I'm wondering with good plans it may be possible to create some of these with a licensed uphosterer at a big cut in costs. If you come up with something let use know Peter.


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## sbkp (Sep 20, 2006)

I don't know if the Tube Traps are still considered any good, but I wanted to make some of these a while back and never got around to it... :(

http://www.teresaudio.com/haven/traps/traps.html


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## Scott Cairns (Sep 20, 2006)

Hi mate, I bought these acoustic bags; http://www.readytraps.com/ and put sheets of Rockwool in them. Probably as close to D.I.Y. that I wanted to go.

They work great. One trick though, they need to be up high toward where the ceiling and walls meet. But they have made an awesome difference.


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## Frederick Russ (Sep 21, 2006)

Sounds great Scott. I'm on the Rockwool site now. Did you just get those locally at a renovation store?


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## ComposerDude (Sep 21, 2006)

Apparently if urethane foam burns it produces toxic smoke. If you are looking for foam instead of fiberglass/rockwool, look into melamine foam which is reportedly "Class A" fire rated.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Sep 22, 2006)

Kays, you are absolutely right, but still it think (in theory) it should be possible to "tame" the room at least a bit by using clever application of cheaper materials.

I am renting my new house only for two years, so I definitely need to have some general purpose dispersers, absorbers and bass traps that I can take with me. I don't want to glue stuff on walls etc.

Thanks for the ReadyTraps link Scott! I will probably order the 8 x basstrap and 4 x absorber bags.

And thanks for the tip on fire and smoke risks!

If I want to have optimal stuff to put inside the bags, what typical material "values" should I care for? I guess the higher the density, the better, but with what parameters is this indicated?


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## ComposerDude (Sep 22, 2006)

Acoustically absorptive materials "absorb" sound by friction with air molecules, and this works best at the point of highest VELOCITY of the air molecules. In taming a room, you're trying to damp out the standing waves, which by physics have nodes at the walls. That means (oversimplified) at the walls you have the highest pressure and zero velocity.

So, in order to extend the absorptive range of your materials, suspending them a distance from the wall will place the material in a higher-airmolecule-velocity point (ideally the quarter-wavelength point) of the standing wave of lower frequencies. A spacing of 6 inches (15 cm) off the wall places the absorptive material at about the quarter-wavelength point of 500 Hz.

Some prebuilt acoustic solutions apparently incorporate a membrane absorber to further damp sound.

-Peter


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Sep 22, 2006)

Hey Peter, how are you doing?

Yep, I know I will have to have the panels some inches away from the wall. I have found the materials that I need and I hope I can get them quickly (a 12 ReadyTrap bag collection - and high density, non-aggresive, panels here in Holland that will probably fit perfectly into the bags).

Thanks again Scott for the tip! I will PM or email you soon with some specific questions on how you made your move into the music business! Man, I am SO fed up with my software design and consultancy work... Hehe.

My heart/soul tells me I really need to switch to music work soon. A lot better for my health and karma. The economy is improving and I currently have NO IT-projects. That sucks...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 22, 2006)

One comment: be sure you're not wagging the dog by buying acoustic materials with no specific goal for anything other than "because it's there." My suggestion would be to stick a measurement mic in your mix position and record some sine wave sweeps to figure out what the room needs and what the problems are. Usually what's required to make the room workable is much less than one is inclined to think at first. (You're not building a mastering studio, you're just making your room usable, I assume.)

Deaden the front of the room if possible, do some broadband bass trapping, maybe use some diffusion at the back of the room. That may be all you need.

And don't put up absorption on the sides.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Sep 22, 2006)

Hey Nick,

Why not put absorption to the sides? Isn't that a common approach to kill ER's? (and above the listening position)?

I agree I should first do some sweep, spike and noise recordings.

The room currently has problems (nasty echos when I clap my hands) but I think it should be fairly easy to get it right.


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## redleicester (Sep 22, 2006)

Peter, YHM


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 22, 2006)

Peter, I had a discussion about that here with Synergy a while ago. The conventional wisdom is that side reflections are bad, but in fact they help the imaging.

You can read a lot about on my friend Dave Moulton's site: www.moultonlabs.com.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 22, 2006)

Here you go:
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... c&start=35

The basic argument - not even an argument, a fact - is that side reflections don't comb-filter with the sound from the speakers. Our brains take care of that - it's a psychoacoustic phenomenon. For us to hear comb-filtering, the sound has to come from the same angle, which is why you deaden the front of the room.

Of course, it's not always possible to do things ideally when you're not building the room specially for the purpose. But you do the best you can.


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## Mike Greene (Sep 22, 2006)

Peter, you want cheap and easy? Have your local building supply place order you some Owens Corning 703 fiberglass panels. They're rigid and hold their shape, unlike regular insulation. Other manufacturers make the same thing, so feel free to substitute. These panels are 2" thick and 2' by 4' in size. This is the same stuff major studios use. A pack contains 9 panels. I'd buy 1 pack to start.

This stuff is incredibly sound absorbant: close to 100% down to 100hz or so. To get 100% down to 50hz, simply put two together to make a 4" thick fiberglass panel.

Then, go to some bedding discounter and buy the cheapest sheets you can get. Or go to some discount fabric store and buy some $1.99/yard fabric. Wrap the panels with this fabric. Use tape, staples, glue, whatever to keep them wrapped.

Slap a few on the walls. Add or subtract to taste.

Then, if you want to get fancy and go for better looks, build wood frames for the panels. Buy prettier fabric and stretch the fabric over the frame for a tight look.

This is cheap and is pretty much exactly what world class studios do (with fancier trim,) although to really tune your room to perfection, you'd probably need to build some resonators, which also isn't as hard as you may think.

- Mike Greene


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Sep 22, 2006)

Guys,

I love you all - thanks for all the great tips, including one elaborate by email,

I have contacted ReadyTraps for a collection of their "bags" (tip from Scotty) into which I can stuff some good panels that I found in my country (not glasswool, but something less agressive, and potentially better in absorption). I will have some 12 panels for around 450 euros.

Red, thanks so much for your info - I will soon get back to you.

Thanks again,


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## Scott Cairns (Sep 22, 2006)

Hi guys, Im in the jungles of Far North Queensland at the moment, surfing on a really crappy computer/connection.  

Ill reply to questions in more detail when I get back in a few days. I also have some links for free room measurement software.

Cheers,

Scott.


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## redleicester (Sep 23, 2006)

Glad to be of help Peter, still in the studio (not gone to bed yet :() so let me know if I can e of any further assistance.

Scott - stop enjoying yourself and go do some work


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Sep 23, 2006)

I just ordered 2 boxes with this non-aggressive material instead of Rockwool or glassfiber:

http://www.akoestiekwinkel.nl/akotherm.html (site in Dutch). 

I get 20 plates of 48" x 24" x 2" and I will make 6 2" panels and 6 4" panels. Costs me some 140 euros ex VAT... Not bad. Let's hope it is as effective as high density Rockwool etc.

They claim it is excellent for acoustical treatments. And it comes in exactly the correct size for the ReadyTrap bags that Scott suggested.

Scott: do you think that the bags themselves have any acoustical properties? Or are they just nice and handy devices for stuffing and hanging the isolation plates?


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## redleicester (Sep 23, 2006)

The bags will take a very very very VERY small amount off the high frequencies....


.... so small as to be virtually unnoticeable! 

YHM... again! :D


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## Mike Greene (Sep 23, 2006)

I hadn't heard of these bags before Scott recommended them. It's a better looking and easier version of the do-it-yourself idea I gave (703 fiberglass wrapped in cheap bedsheets) . . . at not much differnce in cost! This looks like the ticket to me. 

And Joel is absolutely correct about this giving better results than a lot of the more expensive products. Go to any of the big-time studios: Record Plant, Ocean Way, 38-Fresh (have I no shame?!? :mrgreen: .) Peal back the fabric coverings on the walls and you're going to see Owens Corning 703 (or equivalent) fiberglass.


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## Joel DuBay (Sep 23, 2006)

Peter Roos @ Sat Sep 23 said:


> Scott: do you think that the bags themselves have any acoustical properties? Or are they just nice and handy devices for stuffing and hanging the isolation plates?




Peter, you've got the right sized panels. But I know little about the materials you've purchased. I am researching it now for you. :idea: 


Indeed the *Ready Acoustics *fabric does have an effect on the acoustical properties of the finished panel. In fact, in laboratory analysis, our fabric is proven to increase/enhance absorption at low frequencies (specifically from 80-160hz).  

I hope this helps!



Cheers, 

Joel DuBay
Ready Acoustics
http://readyacoustics.com/index.php?go=products.categories


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Sep 24, 2006)

Hello Joel,

Welcome to the forum! Did someone from this topic invite you? I actually did not think about it, but it is great to have producers and manufacturers aboard!

I think a lot of us are interested in your products - especially because of the reasonable pricing and DIY options!

I mailed you when you will have the red bags available again. Any idea?

Many thanks!

PS: Are you Joel Sr or Jr? :wink:


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## Joel DuBay (Sep 24, 2006)

Thank you kind sir(s), 

If I can help any of you create your own DIY solutions, or if you need any comparisons done, please let me know. I will do my best for you. 

Peter, we currently have the SuperSubBass bags in red right now. (6")
These are really, really awesome for smaller spaces like spare bedrooms, etc. And , they are the same price as the other bags!
They are not on the site, but if anyone would like some, just email me and we'll set you up. 

We are still taking pre-orders on Red in the 2"and 4", and other colors can be ordered in all sizes. 

Thanks for your warms welcome. I hope I can contribute in a welcome way. 


Cheers, 

Joel DuBay
Ready Acoustics
www.readyacoustics.com


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## synthetic (Sep 29, 2006)

I built a bunch of those 703 fiberglas panels for my old studio and they work great. You build a frame using 1x2s, stretch fabric over the frame and staple the fabric, then stuff in the fiberglas panel. We used fabric that matched the wall color. 

http://www.jefflaity.com/studio/studios ... twerks.JPG

We put more in the smaller room but it mostly controls high and mid frequency. So if you use too much the room starts to get boomy unless you add bass traps as well.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 29, 2006)

There's a better alternative to fiberglass panels these days:

http://www.bondedlogic.com/ultratouch.htm

And if you're actually building - and you aren't, but while I'm at it:

http://www.quietsolution.com/Products/C ... trock.html

One layer of that stuff is the room and the room within the room.


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## sbkp (Sep 29, 2006)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Sep 29 said:


> There's a better alternative to fiberglass panels these days:
> 
> http://www.bondedlogic.com/ultratouch.htm



Better for the environment, too...



> And if you're actually building - and you aren't, but while I'm at it:
> 
> http://www.quietsolution.com/Products/C ... trock.html
> 
> One layer of that stuff is the room and the room within the room.



I've read about this stuff. It's really all they say, eh?

Thanks for the links.

- Stefan


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## ComposerDude (Sep 29, 2006)

Re the bondedlogic material - Check the specs - it's 3/8" thick and only absorbs .10 of the sound at 250 Hz, .23 of the sound at 500 Hz and .56 of the sound at 1000 Hz.

The idea is cool but they appear to only make it in double-foil-faced and single-foil-faced versions. I would consider working with a single or double MESH-faced version so the layers could be stacked for greater absorption.

Tech specs are at:

http://www.bondedlogic.com/documents/In ... cSheet.pdf

I'm not so sure how nonflammable recycled blue jeans can be made, but they do claim it's Class A. Would need a bit more convincing on that though.

Still, thank you for bringing this to our attention!

-Peter


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## Scott Cairns (Oct 10, 2006)

Frederick Russ @ Fri Sep 22 said:


> Sounds great Scott. I'm on the Rockwool site now. Did you just get those locally at a renovation store?



Hi Frederick, sorry for the lengthy delay in replying, I initially went to some local hardware stores, but it seems the density ratings vary a lot. (and I wasnt sure what to get) I enventually found a company that specialised in acoustic fit-outs and bought it through them.

There's some free room calculators here;

ETF5
http://www.etfacoustic.com/

and Room EQ Wizard (requires Java but free);
http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 10, 2006)

Peter, that's the wrong stuff. You want Ultratouch. Look at these absorption coefficients:

http://www.bondedlogic.com/documents/Ul ... cSheet.pdf

If you look here, you'll see that they treat each fiber with a boron-based fire retardent:

http://www.bondedlogic.com/ultratouchfeatures.htm

That stuff has it all over fiberglass.


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## ComposerDude (Oct 10, 2006)

Aha! 3.5" thick - now that's more like it!

And the absorption specs are MUCH better now...up to 1.37 absorption (137% of the sound, by which one could imagine it sucking sound out of adjacent rooms, but actually the > 100% is just because the edges of the thick sample had not been sealed during testing, thus it had greater surface area by which to absorb sound).

Thank you for pointing out this other version. This looks great.

-Peter


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