# Limiters - Before or after the reverb?



## kmlandre (Aug 9, 2014)

Hi All-

For those of you who put a limiter across the master buss on orchestral stuff - do you do it before or after the main reverb?

I've watched some YouTube videos from a few different folks who seem to put it very last, but no one has ever said why other than to occasionally tame any late bloom in the reverb.

If so or not so, why or why not?

I've been messing with both, but I can't honestly decide if I'm hearing a difference or if I'm making it all up...

Kurt M. Landre'
https://www.SoundCloud.com/kmlandre


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## shapeshifter00 (Aug 9, 2014)

Hi there,

I am not a professional so I don't know if my opinion matter, but as far as I know, as long as it works it works. There is not really any rules on how to do anything, but for the master bus I would rarely put a reverb at all, unless it's a very dry recording or something like that, but not for sampled stuff. In my template I have routed all the busses to an extra bus I call "Orchestral" where I send all the orchestral instruments and not the synths etc. and I add an extra reverb there to try and glue all the orchestral elements together, but I use very little of it. I'm sure there are many experts here that can give you a better answer, but if it does not make much difference how you do it I guess it works both ways


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## re-peat (Aug 9, 2014)

kmlandre @ Sat Aug 09 said:


> (...) If so or not so, why or why not?(...)



The prime function of a limiter, and it’s all in its name, is to prevent a signal from exceeding a certain threshold. Which is why it is placed, more often than not, last in the chain of processing. There’s no law that prohibits you from putting it somewhere else should you like, but if you want to use a limiter honouring its main purpose in life, you would place it last.

Inserting a reverb after the limiter makes a limiter feel kinda ridiculous and silly, cause it knows all its effort will be pointless and wasted as the dopey reverb has no consideration at all for any level threshold whatsoever and invariably adds a few dB to the incoming signal. 
After which you have to insert yet another limiter to prevent the signal from clipping. Which makes the first limiter feel even more useless and redundant than it already did.

_


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## mscottweber (Aug 9, 2014)

I always put a limiter last, as a safety precaution against clipping. I feel like every effect you put on, even subtractive EQ (I don't know if there's actual science to back this up but I bet there is), can potentially make your signal louder. So the limiter goes last. 

If I'm doing any compression on the master bus, I may or may not put that before the reverb. It depends on how hard I'm compressing and if I like what it's doing to the reverb tail. But my master bus chain always ends with a limiter.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 9, 2014)

The other function in many limiter *plug-ins* these days - as opposed to limiters themselves, which are just compressors with a hard ratio, like 10:1 - is setting the overall level.

You simply set the ceiling, and then bring up the level, hitting the limiter harder. Of course you'll hear the limiter if you hit it too hard - which can also be a good thing in some contexts - but these days the processors are very good at being transparent over a fairly wide range.

I think the first limiter to work this way was the Waves L1, and then the L2 added a look-ahead function to do it more gently. Now they're onto the L3, which does that over multiple bands.

I like the iZotope Ozone limiter too.


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## Stephen Rees (Aug 9, 2014)

After for me. Usually set to -0.3dB. The only thing I ever put after it is dithering.


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## Carbs (Aug 9, 2014)

Do you guys usually put reverb on the 2 buss? I'm interested in how common this might be.


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## gsilbers (Aug 9, 2014)

kmlandre @ Sat Aug 09 said:


> Hi All-
> 
> For those of you who put a limiter across the master buss on orchestral stuff - do you do it before or after the main reverb?
> 
> ...



limiter is to have a ceiling limit on db and is not an effect. (in this context)
the idea is for audio peaks to not go overa specific level. if you add the reverb then there will be a chance that the reverb will add more signal db to the signal and getting overloads or not to spec delivery, if any. there wouldnt be a sonic difference either way.


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## gsilbers (Aug 9, 2014)

Carbs @ Sat Aug 09 said:


> Do you guys usually put reverb on the 2 buss? I'm interested in how common this might be.


yes. plenty do. on stems 2 bus and on overall mix 2 buss. if the reverb has a wet/dry ratio of course. but i think you might want to start a new thread. its an interesting topic imo and one thats been discussed a lot in this forum, but as usual, this forum's search funtion by thread subject only is not the best and you wont find the good wealth of info about this topic.


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## Carbs (Aug 9, 2014)

gsilbers @ Sat Aug 09 said:


> Carbs @ Sat Aug 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Do you guys usually put reverb on the 2 buss? I'm interested in how common this might be.
> ...



That's ok, if it's been talked about I will find it. My background isn't in orchestral mixing (samples or otherwise) so maybe this isn't as strange as I have been conditioned to think.


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## gsilbers (Aug 9, 2014)

Carbs @ Sat Aug 09 said:


> gsilbers @ Sat Aug 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Carbs @ Sat Aug 09 said:
> ...



thats hwy i think its interesting topic. as old skool guys and trained pros, the reverb is usually a send buss routing and mostly to one reverb. which makes sense in the early days of DAWs and hardware since cpu and $$ was an issue. now you can add a reverb to any channel you want. too much reverb you say? well, just mix in 5% or so. glue you say? maybe or maybe not, i havent done tests or heard of any but in theory it shouldnt matter if you have the same instance of the ame reverb but in different busses, the signal effect will be applied and create that ambience no matter one reverb with 100% wet or 30 reverbs with 13% wet. maybe not, still.. interesting topic.


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## Carbs (Aug 9, 2014)

Yeah, since I'm normally putting different amounts and kinds of reverbs on my instruments I just never thought to lather the whole mix with one reverb. Guess it's not as crazy as chicken and waffles and peanut butter and pickles or craziness like that - lol! But I don't want hijack the thread so my apologies.


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## wst3 (Aug 10, 2014)

Limiters - used one in the bad old day when it meant plugging a cable into the patchbay, but don't use one today unless the client threatens non-payment if I don't make it louder<G>!

Levels are just too easy to manage in a modern DAW, unless, again, you have to hit -0.1 dBFS.

The other thing about limiters, in the old days, is that they tended to have sonic thumbprints. A good limiter plug-in probably won't, unless it is trying to mimic old hardware.

Come to think of it, I do use the UAD 1176 plug-in all the time, but on inputs, and for that specific sound, but as often with a high ratio as a low one.

If you do need a limiter to do that maximum-loud thing then it does need to be the last process.

As far as the question about multiple reverbs goes - one of my mentors turned me on to the idea that you make a choice - are you creating or re-creating a space, and once you've decided you are creating one you can go crazy - put a plate on the snare and a hall on the kick, a different hall on the guitars and a small chamber on the bass, and then run them all through yet another reverb just for fun on the 2-mix.

It's a very liberating approach!


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