# Calling out for a budget... will they (really) tell you upfront



## gsilbers (Jul 7, 2017)

If a producer/director contacts you do some work, would you ask "whats your budget" on the 1st conversation?

I say it because if a producers job is to get a the best deal for their project then i think he will obviously not say the real budget. mainly becuase if he says, $10k you will be... hmm ill do it for $8k because i like you... or if he says $5k you will say "ill do it for $4k cuz i like you! 
Obviosly it depends on the project and if it requires real players etc.

I am more on the side of trying to talk more about the project itself in the creative side, find out the magnitud of the project and then let them know a price range and options.
and as someone who does music for similar projects then you would know around what price to charge...


so for those who dont have a rep, how do you normally approach this situation?


----------



## mverta (Jul 7, 2017)

Know your number.


----------



## gsilbers (Jul 7, 2017)

mverta said:


> Know your number.





I was thinking about you and that class. 

I do agree... although the point (or main points) is more aboutt how muich you want to be paid and your worth. which is somewhat what i am asking about. but you have been in LA and work with "vendors" and have been in both sides of the equation. 

so you know that for vendors in LA, there is some sort of "unwritten" rule or base prices for certain services. a "rate card" which goes along with what the (real) competition offers. no matter if you talk to sony scoring stages or trying to get vfx from a dude. all these sales poeple in LA work around this principle. obviously i would like to get paid what hans gets... but how do you see your first encounter with a producer/director - who might have been refered to you or otherwise semi unknown? would you already have a set of prices or ask for their budget right off the bat? 

And going along what i was saying above, supply and demand of composers or any post production service oriented field might bring prices up or down. but they stay around certain price ranges. my ego says otherwise... but external forces do sometimes matter. how much do see that during your talks?


----------



## mverta (Jul 7, 2017)

I'm going to be talking a lot about this tonight at 7pm PDT on www.redbanned.com if you want some help!


----------



## dannymc (Oct 16, 2017)

mverta said:


> Know your number.




Mike just want to give my appreciation for making this video. i recently came face to face with this conundrum where i was asked to compose a custom piece for a theme tune. this is the first approach i've had outside of working with music libraries so i was clueless as to what to do. had no idea what to say to the client in terms of money. i knew one thing you should ask is whats the budget. but that didn't really get a straight answer. in the end i gave them a $ per hour amount. 

but just as an add on to all of this. should you sign a contract in advance with the client before you send any music just for piece of mind? the client is a friend of a friend but really i don't really know this person. thanks guys. 

Danny


----------



## A3D2 (Oct 16, 2017)

dannymc said:


> Mike just want to give my appreciation for making this video. i recently came face to face with this conundrum where i was asked to compose a custom piece for a theme tune. this is the first approach i've had outside of working with music libraries so i was clueless as to what to do. had no idea what to say to the client in terms of money. i knew one thing you should ask is whats the budget. but that didn't really get a straight answer. in the end i gave them a $ per hour amount.
> 
> but just as an add on to all of this. should you sign a contract in advance with the client before you send any music just for piece of mind? the client is a friend of a friend but really i don't really know this person. thanks guys.
> 
> Danny


My personal advice: always, always, always make a contract saying exactly what they'll get for how much money, when they'll get it and how much revisions etc... I've personally been screwed over a couple of times before I learned this lesson the hard way. At first I naively thought of my directors/producers as 'artistic friends' working together and sometimes didn't bother making a contract when I started out: this was a bad decision. In the end when your job is done, things need to be paid and unfortunately some will not hesitate to pay less or not at all etc if there is any dispute.


----------



## A3D2 (Oct 16, 2017)

@mverta thanks for the video, really insightful! Do you prefer getting paid a fixed price for a project or per minute of music? I'm having a lot of difficulty deciding between these options because I tend to work long hours on a minute of music when I'm in a perfectionistic mood and then often it seems as if I'm not being paid enough if it's by the minute, but when I ask a fixed price I find it difficult to determine how much it should be or what the parameters are for deciding the asking price; any advice on what a decent starting price is?


----------



## Rob Elliott (Oct 16, 2017)

In my experience, Mike speaks the truth. Nice 'reminder' thread.


----------



## mverta (Oct 17, 2017)

@A3D2 I don't like counting hours or watching the clock when I'm working on music, so I pick a flat number that covers me for the way I actually work, which is when I'm on it, I'm on it. 24/7, usually. I tend to get fully immersed in a thing. The number? It's your number, pick one you like. As I say in the video, just think about what you need, then what you want, be worth it, and stick to it. Also, I expect them to bristle at the number. If they don't, I probably undervalued myself. It's actually a deep topic comprised of a multitude of possible scenarios, but generally I focus first on being worth it, and then on standing my ground. And it's a balancing act. I'm doing a gig right now absolutely for free for some very good friends, which I can afford to do, because I charged the right number on another gig which was every bit the nightmare I knew it was going to be. Just keep going; experience is the best teacher!


----------



## will_m (Oct 17, 2017)

I wouldn't leave the budget conversation too far down the road, its harder to bring up later when you've already invested effort into something. 

Some directors/producers like to talk up the project, "we shot it on this amazing camera, on these great locations, with amazing actors and effects etc". You start to think the budget for music is going to match this great production before realising these reasons aren't to sell you the film but to sell you on the idea that its ok to take a pay cut.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Oct 17, 2017)

I always work on a flat rate (work-for-hire). It's really depressing though if you determine the hourly rate that you are actually charging. But hey, we love it!


----------



## A3D2 (Oct 19, 2017)

@mverta thanks for the advice!


----------



## JJP (Oct 19, 2017)

Most of my work these days is not composing; it's arranging/orchestrating, music copying, musician contracting, and consulting. The negotiating process is a bit different, but it may be useful to share.

I find I go the other way from asking for a budget. I give them one. People come to me with a project, tell me what they want to do, and I try to find out all the parameters I can. At this point I can decide if it seems worthwhile to go to the next step. Sometimes you can throw out a few "back-of-the napkin" numbers during an initial conversation and see if you're even in the same ballpark. You can also feel out if this is a serious project or just someone fishing for numbers. More than once I've said, "Let's wait until you have more information about the project." Later we've moved forward as the project has matured.

The next step is when I begin putting together a formal estimated budget. For my work that may involve consulting union contracts, making some phone calls to determine particular costs, punching numbers into a spreadsheet, and spending time staring out the window imaging how the project will actually be done.

I usually include a list of contingencies with the estimate -- parameters that are unknown or will move the budget up or down if they change. I also make it clear that this is only an estimate that is made with preliminary, limited information. The final cost will be based on the work that is actually done.

At that point I like to have a phone call to give the producer or client a basic overview of where the numbers are. Usually during that phone call we'll have a pretty good idea if the project has potential to move forward. We may also spot some areas that can be massaged a little bit. Having rough numbers and a conversation helps to focus people's thinking. There are often "ah-ha" moments of "I didn't think of that," or "I forgot to mention that we'll need..." or "Don't include this because we won't need it." During that conversation or immediately after I'll send the formal estimate to them so they have something in writing.

I usually pad my estimates to account for unknowns. I make it clear that I aim high and try to come in at or below the target budget. Some people do work the other way. They budget only for exactly what is given to keep numbers low and secure the job. They then let the costs rise as more details come in.

My experience is that most producers are looking for a number they can plug into a larger budget, and it's helpful to them if that number doesn't rise. Plus, I've found that most producers are perfectly happy to have things come in at or below an estimated cost. Therefore when working on a project, I like to keep in contact and alert a producer whenever I see signs of going over the initial estimate. Producers really seem to appreciate this. They hate being hit with an unexpected bill once the work is complete. A simple phone call with advance warning can do wonders to keep things running smoothly.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Oct 19, 2017)

Good post, JJP.

Another important factor is to not get caught up in the excitement of the project before taking care of the paperwork. I learned this the hard way. For example, when I scored my first pilot series, I was so pumped and neglected to discuss the financial aspects until the first episode was nearly complete (even though the director had mentioned there would be compensation). At that point, I brought it up and discovered there was nothing coming from his end....he assumed that since it was my first series, it would good exposure and I could just collect the royalties; and if it was successful, he would pay me for the next season. I ended up only writing the first few, and it was cancelled anyways. To my surprise, he felt bad and cut me a cheque for $2000 for the work I had put into it. The moral of the story? Always discuss the money stuff at the beginning, and have your lawyer draft a contract. It's something most of us hate discussing, but it is vital....or your are inevitably going to get screwed.


----------



## dannymc (Oct 23, 2017)

mverta said:


> @A3D2 I don't like counting hours or watching the clock when I'm working on music, so I pick a flat number that covers me for the way I actually work, which is when I'm on it, I'm on it. 24/7, usually. I tend to get fully immersed in a thing. The number? It's your number, pick one you like. As I say in the video, just think about what you need, then what you want, be worth it, and stick to it. Also, I expect them to bristle at the number. If they don't, I probably undervalued myself. It's actually a deep topic comprised of a multitude of possible scenarios, but generally I focus first on being worth it, and then on standing my ground. And it's a balancing act. I'm doing a gig right now absolutely for free for some very good friends, which I can afford to do, because I charged the right number on another gig which was every bit the nightmare I knew it was going to be. Just keep going; experience is the best teacher!



thanks Mike. so here's the thing. at the start i gave them an hourly rate of $30. then when we discussed numbers further i mentioned the final figure could be between $500 and $950 because its a buy out. at this stage i still had no idea of their budget but i had some intel from a friend of one of the clients that this company had money to spend so that i should not feel uncomfortable aiming for such a figure. my number that sat well with me was $600 as i was going to buy a new sample pack for $250 that contained the type of samples required for this gig. 

btw the work was to write a 5min original catchy theme to be used for their sporting event. 

anyway in the end i ended up having to do about 5 revisions and i'd say i put over 30 hours into it therefore i billed them for $950 and to my amazement they didn't dispute it. expecting to get the cheque in the post this week fingers crossed. 

this was a really unusual gig as these people were not music people and had no idea of the business or the cost of custom music. we didn't even discuss who owns the copyright. i'm not even sure where i stand with this, have i sold all rights to them for a buy out? we haven't signed a contract to cover ownership so now i'm worried this could get messy. i don't mind if it is now signed over to them as it was a custom track for them but just not comfortable with the current situation where its kinda all up in the air. 

this has been my first paying work for hire gig outside of music libraries so i was pretty happy with the result, just want to tie up any loose ends in terms of ownership

Danny


----------



## JJP (Oct 23, 2017)

dannymc said:


> anyway in the end i ended up having to do about 5 revisions and i'd say i put over 30 hours into it therefore i billed them for $950 and to my amazement they didn't dispute it. expecting to get the cheque in the post this week fingers crossed.



I wouldn't blink an eye at a bill that boils down to $30/hour for a buyout on written music. If the music is any good, that's a steal. I'd feel a little guilty getting it that cheap.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Oct 24, 2017)

dannymc said:


> we didn't even discuss who owns the copyright. i'm not even sure where i stand with this, have i sold all rights to them for a buy out? we haven't signed a contract to cover ownership so now i'm worried this could get messy. i don't mind if it is now signed over to them as it was a custom track for them but just not comfortable with the current situation where its kinda all up in the air.
> 
> this has been my first paying work for hire gig outside of music libraries so i was pretty happy with the result, just want to tie up any loose ends in terms of ownership
> 
> Danny



Next time, it's important to make sure you have the details (and contract signed) before handing over the master. At this point, you are kind of screwed because it's difficult to negotiate after the fact. But since they didn't officially sign anything either, you are technically still the owner of the theme music. I wouldn't worry about it (been there, done that).


----------



## dannymc (Oct 24, 2017)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Next time, it's important to make sure you have the details (and contract signed) before handing over the master. At this point, you are kind of screwed because it's difficult to negotiate after the fact. But since they didn't officially sign anything either, you are technically still the owner of the theme music. I wouldn't worry about it (been there, done that).



exactly. so its not really in their ownership either. anyway we'll see if they are willing to negotiate after the lump sum has been paid. if not its not a big deal i can always compose more and better music going forward 

Danny


----------



## gsilbers (Oct 26, 2017)

Hopefully this meme will explain better what I was trying to ask


----------

