# BBCSO PRO - Anyone else hate using a fader to control Expression/Mod it feels unnatural with my left hand



## toomanynotes (Jan 10, 2022)

Hi,
Been pondering this for a while..So I bought 3 fader device to control BBCSO Pro CC's - I just don't feel it, I don't feel connected as I play notes with the right hand on the keyboard; I am a guitarist. I never liked the mod wheel either. 
I feel I have more fine control with my right thumb and index in a XY movement or because I drive I have complete control with my right foot.
Does anyone use a foot expression pedal to achieve dynamics when playing instruments? I'm considering to purchase one asap if I can get some closure on a suitable one.

Thanks
TMN


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## doctoremmet (Jan 10, 2022)

Have you considered a breath controlller?


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## Alex Fraser (Jan 10, 2022)

I understand.
I've always felt faders aren't ideal either. I almost feel constrained by them. Great for those long sweeping dynamic transitions in product demo videos, but I've always felt more comfortable with a mod wheel. Better "twitchiness" and ergonomics to boot.

_(Obviously a personal preference, just incase I start the "fader wars")_

I've not much to offer advice wise other than to make sure that the expression pedal you choose offers the full spectrum of cc values...and that you're not alone. 
Good luck!


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## Vlzmusic (Jan 10, 2022)

There were breath controls, ribbons, light sensors. Pedals tend to be more widespread, you can get a nice inexpensive M-Audio expression pedal for around 25$ on Amazon, to see if it fits you.
There were some adventurous souls who tried to develop a voice controlled workflow. I don't like it personally, cause keeping your voice amplitude steady is PITA.
Is there some working VR to midi solution? I am out of the loop on this one, but this is clearly going to be "the way" to do VI, once VR/AR becomes mainstream. If all goes well, we gonna literally conduct array of VI's in a decade. 

Great topic - though cannot see anything to do with BBCSO...


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## onnomusic (Jan 10, 2022)

you could try a Roli? 

https://roli.com/products/seaboard


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## doctoremmet (Jan 10, 2022)

onnomusic said:


> you could try a Roli?
> 
> https://roli.com/products/seaboard


They are hard to come by, because they have been out of stock for over two years. Plus, it will involve a lot of tweaking AND having to learn an entire new way of (keyboard) playing. One would have to be REALLY convinced of the concept AND willing to put in a lot of effort in order to make this combination work. At least I am unaware of any “off the shelf” solutions for this particular combo. (Speaking as a ROLI enthusiast and user, I might add).

But curious if you’re speaking from a personal experience of course!


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## toomanynotes (Jan 10, 2022)

Thanks, seems it's not only me, hmmm the breath controller sounds interesting, any particular brand model? Cheers


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## toomanynotes (Jan 10, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> These guys make BCs that apparently are really good:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


oh great! Missed that post! Thanks


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## easyrider (Jan 10, 2022)

toomanynotes said:


> Hi,
> Been pondering this for a while..So I bought 3 fader device to control BBCSO Pro CC's - I just don't feel it, I don't feel connected as I play notes with the right hand on the keyboard; I am a guitarist. I never liked the mod wheel either.
> I feel I have more fine control with my right thumb and index in a XY movement or because I drive I have complete control with my right foot.
> Does anyone use a foot expression pedal to achieve dynamics when playing instruments? I'm considering to purchase one asap if I can get some closure on a suitable one.
> ...


I have an expression pedal for two hands action when playing. 👍


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## jbuhler (Jan 10, 2022)

easyrider said:


> I have an expression pedal for two hands action when playing. 👍


I have two, one for modwheel, one for expression. The two footed action hasn’t worked as well for me as I had hoped. But I keep practicing.


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## toomanynotes (Jan 10, 2022)

What pedals you guys using? is it a USB Expression or do you use a interface between your pedal and computer?


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## easyrider (Jan 10, 2022)

toomanynotes said:


> What pedals you guys using? is it a USB Expression or do you use a interface between your pedal and computer?


I just bought a cheap one and use it plugged into my S6 Mk2

Nektar NX-P Universal Expression Pedal,Black


​


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## jbuhler (Jan 10, 2022)

toomanynotes said:


> What pedals you guys using? is it a USB Expression or do you use a interface between your pedal and computer?


I have a Yamaha and a moog. I like the Yamaha better but its angle can be a bit steep sitting down. They both have good throws across the midi range.

ETA: they are both plugged into pedal ports on the keyboard.


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## easyrider (Jan 10, 2022)

For Omnisphere and synth and pads etc….I just use the modewheel.

Also for brass parts and chords I tend to use my right hand and mod wheel to twitch into the notes etc…


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## gamma-ut (Jan 10, 2022)

toomanynotes said:


> What pedals you guys using? is it a USB Expression or do you use a interface between your pedal and computer?


Roland EV5 and a Moog EP-3 both plugged into a Kurzweil used as a master keyboard, one mapped to CC4 and the other to CC11. I think the Moog is the better one out of the two: travel on the EV5 isn't great but good enough for wah-wah work, so that one gets CC4.


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## robgb (Jan 10, 2022)

I don't hate fader control, but I just bought a Leap Motion controller, which might be a solution for you. I'll let you know how it works out.


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## gamma-ut (Jan 10, 2022)

One thing to note on BCs. I happen to like using them but it is a bit like using a sprung Roland-style modwheel: it wants to return to zero. The discipline of using a BC is helpful in that for wind instruments especially you naturally avoid playing impossible lines – you just run out of breath. It can just as easily help strings for similar reasons. Similarly it is quite handy for lines that are kinda legato but where you want it to be a bit more detaché to emulate the performer easing off between strokes.

But you can end up with over-active CC11 lanes that sound unnatural when deployed on orchestral sections rather than solo players. And you have to get good at developing a good breath attack for things that need a marcato-type articulation. If you're not used to it, it can be a frustrating skill to learn. The Touché I find is similar in approach but really easy to play, though it is again sprung to return to zero.


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## RogiervG (Jan 10, 2022)

@toomanynotes
I think the title is a bit wrong here.. you make it seem as that it's the fault of BBC SO, but has actually nothing to do with the library at all. It can give reader of the forum threads a wrong idea about a product e.g.

Your complaint is in essence about CC controls, and how you dislike using faders to manipulate them.


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## Aldunate (Jan 10, 2022)

iPad with OSC Control. You can make your own custom controller.
For redundancy, I also have AudioSwift in a Trackpad, the Modwheel, and the rotary knobs on a NKS keyboard.


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## mybadmemory (Jan 10, 2022)

Apart from not having much to do with BBCSO, but rather about all orchestral sample libraries in general, I can absolutely agree. It’s neither intuitive or very rewarding. I ignored it completely in the beginning which led to very stale mock-ups, and ultimately just surrendered to the importance of putting in the time. I usually play my curves in while recording but then immediately redraw them using a mouse afterwards. I wish there was a way that felt better and was quicker (and perhaps there is).


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## jbuhler (Jan 10, 2022)

mybadmemory said:


> Apart from not having much to do with BBCSO, but rather about all orchestral sample libraries in general, I can absolutely agree. It’s neither intuitive or very rewarding. I ignored it completely in the beginning which led to very stale mock-ups, and ultimately just surrendered to the importance of putting in the time. I usually play my curves in while recording but then immediately redraw them using a mouse afterwards. I wish there was a way that felt better and was quicker (and perhaps there is).


Unless I’m noodling or experimenting, I usually draw rather than play automation for CC1 and 11. But my drawing is based on years of playing and abstracting shapes for the automation. And if I don’t like how it sounds I will play it in and study the resultant curve. Although some basic principles apply across libraries, I do have to learn a repertory of specific automation shapes for nearly every library.


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## fakemaxwell (Jan 10, 2022)

I have the TEC breath controller and Leap Motion that I use a lot, however I find with sample libraries it's hit or miss whether the continuous control will work well. There's typically not enough dynamic layers to seamlessly transition as quick as a breath controller will let you. It's more noticeable on strings than woodwinds or brass.

The opposite is true for any of the physically modeled instruments out there, you're at a huge disadvantage with just a modwheel.


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## toomanynotes (Jan 10, 2022)

robgb said:


> I don't hate fader control, but I just bought a Leap Motion controller, which might be a solution for you. I'll let you know how it works out.


Cool I got one of those hiding in my drawer of underpants! Let me know!


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## toomanynotes (Jan 10, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> @toomanynotes
> I think the title is a bit wrong here.. you make it seem as that it's the fault of BBC SO, but has actually nothing to do with the library at all. It can give reader of the forum threads a wrong idea about a product e.g.
> 
> Your complaint is in essence about CC controls, and how you dislike using faders to manipulate them.


Nah man, I love BBCSO! Free publicity, attracts ppl to my post and possibly someone who uses it may advise better…also as the 2 cc’s are meant to be used together for this particular library. 😎


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## toomanynotes (Jan 10, 2022)

easyrider said:


> I just bought a cheap one and use it plugged into my S6 Mk2
> 
> Nektar NX-P Universal Expression Pedal,Black
> 
> ...


My keyboard only has Sustain jack input no expression🥲


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## cedricm (Jan 10, 2022)

Have you tried to play first, then record automation with the faders?
Not that bad in my opinion, and you can use 2 hands on your faders if you like it better.


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## Trash Panda (Jan 10, 2022)

If you don't mind playing keyboard on a tablet, MusiKraken lets you assign CC controls to dragging up/down on the screen as you play the keys. Alternately, you can use it to turn a phone or tablet into a Leap Motion type of device where moving your non-playing hand can control CC values.


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## molemac (Jan 10, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> If you don't mind playing keyboard on a tablet, MusiKraken lets you assign CC controls to dragging up/down on the screen as you play the keys. Alternately, you can use it to turn a phone or tablet into a Leap Motion type of device where moving your non-playing hand can control CC values.


There are various midi rings that work quite well like the Genki. I use one for string pad writing with 2 hands . I just raise my palms a little for adding expression by cc1 or 11 or both. I used to also use an Ewi wind controller but now am in love with Odeisei travel sax for writing midi legato string lines or anything really . I can post a video if anyone is interested.


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## toomanynotes (Jan 10, 2022)

cedricm said:


> Have you tried to play first, then record automation with the faders?
> Not that bad in my opinion, and you can use 2 hands on your faders if you like it better.


No I haven't, I may need a tutorial on making those curves mean what i want them to mean...?


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## toomanynotes (Jan 10, 2022)

molemac said:


> There are various midi rings that work quite well like the Genki. I use one for string pad writing with 2 hands . I just raise my palms a little for adding expression by cc1 or 11 or both. I used to also use an Ewi wind controller but now am in love with Odeisei travel sax for writing midi legato string lines or anything really . I can post a video if anyone is interested.


yeah love to see!


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## dunamisstudio (Jan 10, 2022)

I just use my 8 fader controller with my left and play notes with my right. I'm a guitarist too.


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## chlady (Jan 10, 2022)

I use a generic pedal plugged into my komplete kontrol keyboard for expression and then the mod wheel for dynamics while inputting and works well but usually have to go back and tweak it more by drawing it in later.


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## jaketanner (Jan 10, 2022)

toomanynotes said:


> No I haven't, I may need a tutorial on making those curves mean what i want them to mean...?


The key to using faders/modwheel to control CC dynamics is to know WHERE the dynamics change for your particular library. Some have 3 dynamics, some 4, some more and some less...once you figure out where these are on the fader, it is easier to manipulate the dynamics. It's like a player knowing how much force to use for mf...you will know at what position to be in. Expression is linear, and there shouldn't be any mystery there...basically a volume, but reacts slightly different than audio volume. Hard to explain, but to me it's much smoother a transition than using the DAW's fader to control the volume.

Think of your sliders as part of your instrument. instead of using a bow, you use a fader. Practice will make it more natural.


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## Fidelity (Jan 10, 2022)

jaketanner said:


> The key to using faders/modwheel to control CC dynamics is to know WHERE the dynamics change for your particular library. Some have 3 dynamics, some 4, some more and some less...once you figure out where these are on the fader, it is easier to manipulate the dynamics. It's like a player knowing how much force to use for mf...you will know at what position to be in. Expression is linear, and there shouldn't be any mystery there...basically a volume, but reacts slightly different than audio volume. Hard to explain, but to me it's much smoother a transition than using the DAW's fader to control the volume.
> 
> Think of your sliders as part of your instrument. instead of using a bow, you use a fader. Practice will make it more natural.


That's actually a literal thing with that one reaktor ensemble with the physically modeled strings. Fader bowing is dope. Weird, but dope.



toomanynotes said:


> Cool I got one of those hiding in my drawer of underpants! Let me know!


Oddly specific


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## dylanmixer (Jan 11, 2022)

Bought an expression pedal, never looked back. It is the most natural way to compose, imo.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jan 11, 2022)

Try a Genki Wave and you can wave your hand like you’re Harry Potter creating some real magical shit.


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## molemac (Jan 12, 2022)

toomanynotes said:


> yeah love to see!


Here you go. Please bear in mind that all the sound is coming straight out of my speakers into a mono mike straight into the ipad. SO it sounds horrible but will give you an idea of what can be done. . .
I have never made a video before so couldnt work out how to get the sound from the mac and the video at the same time.

Check out the Genki ring too. This video shows how I use it in a similar way to add expression via cc1 rasing my ring finger so I can play with both hands.


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## toomanynotes (Jan 12, 2022)

Whoa, that’s a video right there, you set that whole rig stage for me?! Love the choice of clothes too, they matched the lighting. Hell you got your shit and technique down too!
Talk about getting in the zone.

I like it! I looked on the site and apparently they ship from Iceland?
thanks for that demo!


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Jan 12, 2022)

easyrider said:


> I just bought a cheap one and use it plugged into my S6 Mk2
> 
> Nektar NX-P Universal Expression Pedal,Black
> 
> ...


Also been using an expression pedal myself (M-AUDIO), plugged into my KKS49 MK1

Much prefer it that way


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## ModalRealist (Jan 12, 2022)

Has anyone tried using an iPad to draw automation in the DAW? I agree with many others that, often, one needs to redraw CC1 and 11 after getting a rough sense via live recording. I _hate_ drawing with the mouse though.

Do people just set up screen reflection using something like Duet or Astropad (or Sidecar?), or do you use a remote app of your DAW's or?

Thanks in advance for any tips! 

(Edit: I know people with fancy studios often use full touchscreen monitors, I presume in part to help with this, but that is beyond my - and I'm sure plenty of others' - means.)


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## Alex Fraser (Jan 12, 2022)

ModalRealist said:


> Has anyone tried using an iPad to draw automation in the DAW? I agree with many others that, often, one needs to redraw CC1 and 11 after getting a rough sense via live recording. I _hate_ drawing with the mouse though.
> 
> Do people just set up screen reflection using something like Duet or Astropad (or Sidecar?), or do you use a remote app of your DAW's or?
> 
> ...


I tried it (with Duet) without much success. I just found it a bit....fiddly? YMMV etc.


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## Trash Panda (Jan 12, 2022)

ModalRealist said:


> Has anyone tried using an iPad to draw automation in the DAW? I agree with many others that, often, one needs to redraw CC1 and 11 after getting a rough sense via live recording. I _hate_ drawing with the mouse though.
> 
> Do people just set up screen reflection using something like Duet or Astropad (or Sidecar?), or do you use a remote app of your DAW's or?
> 
> ...


I've had success using a Surface to do this. Really needs to be wired in via ethernet though.

Still working on figuring out a way to do this from iPad to PC properly.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 12, 2022)

ModalRealist said:


> Has anyone tried using an iPad to draw automation in the DAW? I agree with many others that, often, one needs to redraw CC1 and 11 after getting a rough sense via live recording. I _hate_ drawing with the mouse though.
> 
> Do people just set up screen reflection using something like Duet or Astropad (or Sidecar?), or do you use a remote app of your DAW's or?
> 
> ...


No, but I use TouchOSC on my iPad to record the MOD wheel movements afterwards. It's nice to sit back and record them in while playing back each track.


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## ModalRealist (Jan 12, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> No, but I use TouchOSC on my iPad to record the MOD wheel movements afterwards. It's nice to sit back and record them in while playing back each track.


I always find myself struggling to time myself well when overdubbing CC information. It works fairly well for swells/cresc/dims, but if I'm trying to do anything clever (fake a marcato, double-tonguing envelopes, etc) I just can't get accurate enough.



Alex Fraser said:


> I tried it (with Duet) without much success. I just found it a bit....fiddly? YMMV etc.





Trash Panda said:


> I've had success using a Surface to do this. Really needs to be wired in via ethernet though.
> 
> Still working on figuring out a way to do this from iPad to PC properly.


I'm tempted to try Astropad for iPad, which I understand can do partial-screen mirroring (as opposed to full-screen mirroring) and is well-regarded by those doing visual arts.


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## molemac (Jan 12, 2022)

I also use touchosc which is instant and visually satisfying . Also learnt a cool new(old) trick today from guru @Saxer when it comes to overwriting ccs. I always come unstuck when I want to record the cc in fo again and forget to delete the original take. There is no way to overwrite but his suggestion of creating a transform set with a key command that deletes all cc info or just cc1 whatever is great. I have created one that deles everything apart from the notes. Very useful if you have a region that has loads of info that has crept into the region (ccs from different midi keyboards on different midi channels , unnecessary after touch or pitch wheel etc.


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## toomanynotes (Jan 12, 2022)

molemac said:


> Here you go. Please bear in mind that all the sound is coming straight out of my speakers into a mono mike straight into the ipad. SO it sounds horrible but will give you an idea of what can be done. . .
> I have never made a video before so couldnt work out how to get the sound from the mac and the video at the same time.
> 
> Check out the Genki ring too. This video shows how I use it in a similar way to add expression via cc1 rasing my ring finger so I can play with both hands.



just saw the sax instrument, I think that's brilliant! Sounds like you got a very good system set up there! Thank you so much for showing us all!!!


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## toomanynotes (Jan 12, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> No, but I use TouchOSC on my iPad to record the MOD wheel movements afterwards. It's nice to sit back and record them in while playing back each track.


I have apple pencil, surely there must be a way to draw those lines using ipad screen and apple pen/pencil.?


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## Martin S (Jan 12, 2022)

toomanynotes said:


> I have apple pencil, surely there must be a way to draw those lines using ipad screen and apple pen/pencil.?


Yes, you can use SideCar (on Mac) in mirroring mode, but it’s a wee bit laggy..I dunno if there’s a similar feature on Windows, though.


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## muziksculp (Jan 12, 2022)

Hi,

I started using my ROLI *Lightpad Block* in X-Y-Z mode to control *BBCSO Pro*. 

I assigned CC#1 and 11 for the X-Y controls. Didn't assign anything for the Z (Pressure) . It works very nicely, and not just for this library, but for others as well. Much easier, and more natural to control these two parameters simultaneously than using two faders. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## robgb (Jan 12, 2022)

toomanynotes said:


> Cool I got one of those hiding in my drawer of underpants! Let me know!


I started playing around with the leap motion controller today. It's relatively easy to set up and once you do, it works well. It does take some getting used to, however. I've set it up for CC1 (expression) and I raise my hand up and down, and CC2 (vibrato) as I tilt my hand to the side. There are a multitude of other things you can include, but I'm keeping it simple for now. By the way, I'm using it in conjunction with the free Geco software, which you can find here:









GECO - Music and sound through hand gestures


GECO is one of the easiest and most powerful solutions to interact with MIDI, OSC and CopperLan through hand gestures. GECO fully leverages the power of the Leap Motion Controller and detects tiniest little movements of your hands. All that's left is for you to be creative and perform.



uwyn.com


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## MA-Simon (Jan 12, 2022)

I really don't like faders. Super stiff. I like the modwheel the most. Very agile. Tried the pedal thing. Never felt organic enough. Was not able to use a breath controller yet. But I imagine it would be very tactile.
Just did not fine one yet that was not an expensive pice of plastic tubing...


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## toomanynotes (Jan 13, 2022)

MA-Simon said:


> I really don't like faders. Super stiff. I like the modwheel the most. Very agile. Tried the pedal thing. Never felt organic enough. Was not able to use a breath controller yet. But I imagine it would be very tactile.
> Just did not fine one yet that was not an expensive pice of plastic tubing...


So do you draw it in? I was thinking a pen and tablet might be the best way to go to draw in curves?


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## toomanynotes (Jan 13, 2022)

robgb said:


> I started playing around with the leap motion controller today. It's relatively easy to set up and once you do, it works well. It does take some getting used to, however. I've set it up for CC1 (expression) and I raise my hand up and down, and CC2 (vibrato) as I tilt my hand to the side. There are a multitude of other things you can include, but I'm keeping it simple for now. By the way, I'm using it in conjunction with the free Geco software, which you can find here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok that’s great to hear, I’ve just set it up too! I’m wondering how to use both Vol and expression at the same time with one hand, I know you can set parameters to start at min/max levels; for example. For example min 20 max 90. 
i’m asking as that‘s how this BBCSO library is meant to shine.


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## robgb (Jan 13, 2022)

toomanynotes said:


> Ok that’s great to hear, I’ve just set it up too! I’m wondering how to use both Vol and expression at the same time with one hand, I know you can set parameters to start at min/max levels; for example. For example min 20 max 90.
> i’m asking as that‘s how this BBCSO library is meant to shine.


I think if you set it up the way I have and use CC11 instead of vibrato, you can raise your hand for dynamics and tilt for volume/expression and experiment to find how to make it work best. Similar to using an XY pad for dynamics and expression.


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## toomanynotes (Jan 14, 2022)

robgb said:


> I think if you set it up the way I have and use CC11 instead of vibrato, you can raise your hand for dynamics and tilt for volume/expression and experiment to find how to make it work best. Similar to using an XY pad for dynamics and expression.


Wow that sounds like a great idea, of course I can save different templates for different uses too. Do you have a video on your set up or in action? I expect you to say no, but worth an ask. Lol


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## robgb (Jan 14, 2022)

toomanynotes said:


> Wow that sounds like a great idea, of course I can save different templates for different uses too. Do you have a video on your set up or in action? I expect you to say no, but worth an ask. Lol


I've thought of it, but my time is limited lately and I'm several review videos behind. You can find a pretty detailed tutorial on Youtube here:


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## fakemaxwell (Jan 14, 2022)

Midipaw is much better than GECO, but only on Windows. Pretty straight forward to set up.


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## toomanynotes (Jan 15, 2022)

robgb said:


> I've thought of it, but my time is limited lately and I'm several review videos behind. You can find a pretty detailed tutorial on Youtube here:



Thank you I’ll will certainly check this out.


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## toomanynotes (Jan 15, 2022)

fakemaxwell said:


> Midipaw is much better than GECO, but only on Windows. Pretty straight forward to set up.


Never heard of it, I will check it out thanks


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## toomanynotes (Jan 15, 2022)

robgb said:


> I've thought of it, but my time is limited lately and I'm several review videos behind. You can find a pretty detailed tutorial on Youtube here:



Up and down is perfect! However the Roll inclination is behaving erratically- the BBCSO CC11 fader is jumping all over the place. If I twist my arm anymore i will need an operation. I don't do stress, So I'm going to try Midipaw instead. Thanks !!


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## Jerry Growl (Jan 15, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> I have two, one for modwheel, one for expression. The two footed action hasn’t worked as well for me as I had hoped. But I keep practicing.


The problem with foot controllers is that (as far as I know) it usually all works fine going up in expression (pressing down the pedal), but it's just slow and inaccurate and unnatural going down again in expression (liftin the pedal). The heel does not work as a fine pencil there. A system like a car pedal would already work better than that... Foot controllers were designed for organ players, weren't they? That explains much of the design flaws  I have two of them and they were only used live playing with two hands.

A breath controller is fine for wind instruments, but it only works as natural as intended on instruments that were designed to work with breath control. It's hard to control a wide range of expression for strings with your breath, and especially to keep things steady and constant, it's almost impossible to use.

An i-pad is an instrument of distraction. Plus, I don't see myself taking it back from my kid because 'daddy needs to play'. Plenty of other reasons why not.

The modwheel on my Kawai stage piano worked pretty well (long ago). It did have a nice weight to it. Like it didn't want to go up or down. That struggle actually works well for expression. Untill it broke off  (it wasn't designed to be used that much obviously).

So now for me it's just a Korg nanoKontrol with miniature faders and they don't take up space in my head or in my studio. It works fine.


Just one more thing: I don't have BBCSO, but this was never the topic, was it?


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## Trash Panda (Jan 15, 2022)

Jerry Growl said:


> Just one more thing: I don't have BBCSO, but this was never the topic, was it?


I think it’s fair to bring it up since almost all other conversational roads get ram rodded into a BBCSO circle jerk.


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## robgb (Jan 15, 2022)

fakemaxwell said:


> Midipaw is much better than GECO, but only on Windows. Pretty straight forward to set up.


How so? I think GECO works great and is extremely easy to set up.


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## fakemaxwell (Jan 15, 2022)

robgb said:


> How so? I think GECO works great and is extremely easy to set up.


The two hand setup of GECO doesn't work as well for how we tend to use it (one hand on keys, other controlling CC). Midipaw has a much larger range to work with. It's also currently supported, whereas GECO is no longer updated. 

Not to say that you need to switch if GECO is working well for you, the end result is pretty much the same.


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## robgb (Jan 16, 2022)

fakemaxwell said:


> The two hand setup of GECO doesn't work as well for how we tend to use it (one hand on keys, other controlling CC). Midipaw has a much larger range to work with. It's also currently supported, whereas GECO is no longer updated.
> 
> Not to say that you need to switch if GECO is working well for you, the end result is pretty much the same.


Couldn't if I wanted to. Midipaw is Windows only and I'll never go back to Windows.


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## robgb (Jan 18, 2022)

So after playing with Leap Motion, I decided that it's ultimately not reliable enough to use on a regular basis. While I love the idea, I get a much better response from my OSC Android set-up with X/Y controllers. I have arranged to return the Leap Motion controller to the retailer. I'm a little sad about this, because it's great when it's really cranking, but can't waste time with something that works only sporadically.


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## Alex Fraser (Jan 18, 2022)

For those using touchscreens..
..I sometimes use gaming finger sleeves for less screen friction. Great for sweaty hands.


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## muziksculp (Jan 18, 2022)

Hi,

I'm currently using the ROLI Lightpad block M in X-Y-Z Mode to control CC#11,and 1 . It does a decent job, not perfect. I posted a pic of my ROLI in an earlier post on this thread. 

What I'm really looking forward to is the release of Metagrid 2 , which can offer a lot of controller options, including X-Y pad control. Hopefully it will be released soon. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Christian64 (Jun 16, 2022)

dylanmixer said:


> Bought an expression pedal, never looked back. It is the most natural way to compose, imo.


Hi,
what pedal did you buy, please?
Thanks


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## gzapper (Jun 16, 2022)

I'm a guitar player as well, as such, using pedals is second nature.

I've had a Keith Macmillen softstep which has xy pads for your feet. But its too hard to be consistent and the sensors aren't accurate and don't always fire. And it died. So I bought a KM 12 step, to use as bass pedals. Also find the sensors not accurate enough to be consistently useable. My bad for repeating that purchase.

I've also a leap motion controller. Cool in concept but never tracked consistently or without a bit of latency. 

So now I primarily use a logidy UMI3. Really great, quite and accurate switches and good input for expression. Great for using for loopers.

Expression pedal is easier for me and more accurate than mod wheel.









logidy.com - UMI3


UMI3 MIDI Over USB Foot Controller




www.logidy.com


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## Flyo (Jun 18, 2022)

There its no way to play legatos with velocity mapped instead of modwheel?


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Jun 18, 2022)

Flyo said:


> There its no way to play legatos with velocity mapped instead of modwheel?


Maybe your sequencer has a transform plugin of a sort where whenever you hit a key, velocity value is then changed to CC1 value before it’s sent to the Spitfire plugin.


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## Flyo (Jun 18, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Maybe your sequencer has a transform plugin of a sort where whenever you hit a key, velocity value is then changed to CC1 value before it’s sent to the Spitfire plugin.


Thanks, really I don’t have that knowledge, maybe that CC transformer exist, I don’t know. Any tip for active this could be really helpful


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Jun 18, 2022)

Flyo said:


> Thanks, really I don’t have that knowledge, maybe that CC transformer exist, I don’t know. Any tip for active this could be really helpful


Are you using Cubase? Then there’s MIDI Transformer, I think it’s called. It might work for this, can’t remember exactly.


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## Flyo (Jun 18, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Are you using Cubase? Then there’s MIDI Transformer, I think it’s called. It might work for this, can’t remember exactly.


Thanks again. Not using Cubase, still on ProTools


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Jun 19, 2022)

Flyo said:


> Thanks again. Not using Cubase, still on ProTools


I found this:

"...Another way to use the product is for MIDI control remapping and transform: assign an input parameter a given MIDI CC, and assign the associated output parameter to another MIDI CC with different response curve parameters: the plug-in will remap the controller to the new CC and channel with a new response curve."





__





Remap midi controllers? - Avid Pro Audio Community


Remap midi controllers? Pro Tools TDM Systems (Mac)



duc.avid.com





The thread is from 2010 but the product mentioned is still available, it seems:





__





Blue Cat's Remote Control - virtual MIDI Control Surface (VST, AU, VST3, AAX)







www.bluecataudio.com





Anyway, hope you find a solution


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## Flyo (Jun 19, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> I found this:
> 
> "...Another way to use the product is for MIDI control remapping and transform: assign an input parameter a given MIDI CC, and assign the associated output parameter to another MIDI CC with different response curve parameters: the plug-in will remap the controller to the new CC and channel with a new response curve."
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for your search, I will do try


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