# Why Independent film is failing...from a former studio mogel...



## Brian Ralston (Sep 30, 2009)

So...in my continuing effort to share with my fellow composers perspective and thought provoking essays on how the "biz" works...because if anyone is going to be successful in this biz, you have to know how the politics work and not be myopic to just music issues. Below is another link worth reading. 

Basically, Bill Mechanic (a former Fox studio mogul who pushed for X-Men to be made at Fox, as well as their animation division that did Ice Age)...gave a keynote speech this morning about the future of indies from this morning's Independent Film & Television Production Conference and it is NOT pretty. He is an individual who knows how it works. He is also now the head of the Independent production company that recently did Coraline.

Basically...he says that independent film is dying. _"New money is going to be hard, if not impossible to find. Ad sales are down, so TV networks around the world, other than cable, aren’t buying. Add in a confused video market, and it’s going to be tough."_ Also...he says a big reason for this is because the indies are trying to be like the big studio films...which they are not. No one is taking risks...but this is because the lawyers and finance companies are not giving money to films that take risks. They are only funding films that follow proven track records. And the market is flooded with "copycats" that...well...basically suck and are all competing for the same dollars in a flat un-expanding market.

He does believe the market will correct though over the next few years...but what that means is that the current 450+ indie films that are done today...will drastically shrink to 150 or so in a few years. The crap will stop being funded basically...and what does that mean to folks like us? There will be A LOT fewer film/job opportunities to score.

Anyway...don't take my summary only, read the full keynote address if you choose to comment. The perspective in it is something I have been hearing for a couple years now from my "studio level" producer friends as well. 

Bill Mechanic's keynote address here

o-[][]-o


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## lux (Sep 30, 2009)

without a polemical intent, but i wonder why you often choose (and state with your opinions) pieces where small business need to die, big boys rules are solid as rock, young artists will never emerge.

Of course it reflects a personal point of view, that i respect. I cannot avoid thinking though to the thousand "unbreakable" rules i've seen broken in a breeze once something different hits the market. 

I have had some experience with big business, even if not in the show business, that convinced me about the unpredictable flowing of industrial trends. 

Is one of the rules of the industry to state temporary guidelines as evangelic truth. Pratice demonstrates that same people often state the exact opposite, just few days later, once the wind changes a bit.

Thats the reason i'm careful with industrial trends and rules, personally.


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## Brobdingnagian (Sep 30, 2009)

Thanks for the link Brian.

The writing has been on the wall for some time now.


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## Brian Ralston (Sep 30, 2009)

lux @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> without a polemical intent, but i wonder why you often choose (and state with your opinions) pieces where small business need to die,



I do not believe that AT ALL. In fact, I believe that small business is the cornerstone of society. Most people in the US...and the world really...are employed by small businesses, not major corporations. If one wants to achieve wealth and success in life...you probably should become a small business owner. But..."Hollywood" as most people here probably aspire to work in...is not a "small business". It is anything but. 



> big boys rules are solid as rock,



Those rules may be unfair at times...they may be brutal...they may be money driven...but none the less, they are the rules of the game out here. If one wants to emerge from the smaller indie stuff into the "bog boy" world...they need to know how to play the "big boy" rules of the game. It is not going anywhere. And it is the only way to get one's foot in the door. District 9 for example did not get made because it was different and fresh...it was made because of the clout of Peter Jackson pushing on high for it to get made. He did not get to the point of having that clout without playing by the rules for many years and having success over and over again...especially with LOTR.



> young artists will never emerge.



On the contrary...they emerge all the time. But not necessarily because of talent. If one of the "big boys" trusts you and thinks they can make money off of you and your work...you and your work (good or not) will emerge. But I firmly believe that you have to at least know how the system works before you can try to navigate your own unique path through it. Otherwise, you will get no where, pretty fast. I have seen it happen time and time again. One example of that. There are about 5-6 of my fellow 20 USC classmates still "in the biz" even trying to become what they started out to be...a composer. All were equally as talented as composers with their own unique musical perspectives and backgrounds...or they would not have been in the program in the first place. Many have now simply given up, frustrated at their lack of progress and lost in their ability to understand where things went wrong post USC.



> Of course it reflects a personal point of view, that i respect. I cannot avoid thinking though to the thousand "unbreakable" rules i've seen broken in a breeze once something different hits the market.



This is part of the point. The industry is NOT about breaking rules. It is about making money. And the only way to ensure you make the most amount of money with the least amount of risk is to follow proven models of success. This is true for what screenplays you greenlight...what TV shows you develop...which actors you hire for your film...which crew members like Director, DP, Editor, Composer you hire to make your film, etc...

You hire based on past success. And they believe that will give them the BEST CHANCE of future success. When something comes along that achieves success that does not follow any established rules, chances are it catches everyone by surprise, it did it without any help from the studios, it had a VERY hard time getting anyone to look at it or fund it...and then all of a sudden, everyone wants to copy what you just did. This is because of the way the business works. 

Know how to position yourself and your work in this well established environment, and you are already one step ahead of 90% of the other folks.


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## The_Dark_Knight (Sep 30, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKRTi584 ... re=related


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## kid-surf (Sep 30, 2009)

> The perspective in it is something I have been hearing for a couple years now from my "studio level" producer friends as well.



...And from Kid-Surf. 

Which is the exact reason why I cannot chase that (directing) dragon at this time, sadly. Ironically, or coincidentally, I just mentioned that in an e-mail to you recently. Yes, it fucking sucks out there. I REALLY want to direct a very personal and important (to me) script, though it's not my life story or what have you, it's fiction. The script has moved many (industry) people who've read it. I could probably get a great actor. But it would be hell on earth to try and get it financed, I simply do not feel I could in this climate. What's worse, even if I did.......SO F'N WHAT!? It would do absolutely nothing for my career. I'd have spent 2 YEARS of my life (on the fast track) making the thing and for what? I wouldn't have made any money. Distro would be hell to get. I am convinced I would not get distro, in spite of my confidence in the [Hollywood vetted script] and in spite of my confidence that I could kill it directing. Simply...I could call myself a director. Now what? I can't get a job directing a studio film and indie film is dying. What I write another indie script and try to do the same thing all over again, just to end up in the hole...again?

Agreed it's F'n bleak out there in the indie world...very bleak. I cannot waste my time with it (from the perspective of someone who could perhaps have a gig for a composer on a kick ass film that, in my opinion, would receive much critical praise). That's one less gig for a composer, where 5-10 years ago...from the time I wrote the thing....We'd already be in post. We'd probably win awards and be the darlings of the indie world and be flagging offers from the studio world. That's......................GONE.


Thus...I have to try and squeeze through that sliver of light before the door finally closes tight on TV. At least I can get paid. Studio films, same thing.

Both of those markets are running scared too. Tv is afraid of what computer streaming/DL's are doing to the market. Studio film is cutting WAY back on deals. In fact they are cutting the standard 3-step screenwriting deal to "1" step. Not all the studios have done it yet, but plenty.

It's becoming BRUTAL out there. Your only chance (as a low level writer) is to absolutely FUKKING KILL IT! You've go to be better than the top guys or you don't stand a chance. Low level director? Man good luck!? Particularly if you don't know how to write. Those guys aren't going to find work much longer (talking indie guys specifically).

Composer? Hold onto your hat. It's going to get slim pickings out there. Remember, you guys are 2 years behind the front line guys (screenwriters). Less gigs for screenwriters means less gigs for composers.


Having said that. It has to get better...I hope! Otherwise, you just gotta be the guy who's better than everyone else. Fact of the matter. I'm up for the challenge.

Now I'll read the piece..... o-[][]-o


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## kid-surf (Sep 30, 2009)

LUX -- there is truth in your words. Only issue is, we gotta pay the bills in the meantime. who knows when this will correct, and if it will. We can only assume.

What gives me hope is that I friggn HATE 99% of the films made today. Someone will find the balls to make something GOOD. That will make money.

Happened in the 90's it can happen again. The market [for good] is wide open currently.


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## Brian Ralston (Sep 30, 2009)

kid-surf @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> Just...don't count on that happening. Be the guy who REALLY IS talented as hell, the guy doing the best work around town...and your *value* goes up exponentially.



Oh I know one can't count on that happening at all...but seriously...I can think of lots of guys who just made it who happened to know the right person at the right time and had just enough technical skill to deliver on time and on budget.



kid-surf @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> The "big boys" aren't dealing with me today just because they like me, or trust me. First and foremost, they believe my work is of the highest quality. Which is the only reason they believe they can make money from my work....the only reason.



I agree and I feel the same way about projects in my past. But really...who ever feels that their work is just "ok?" I certainly don't. I don't know many who feel they are churning out the status quo. 

For some, it may be all they are in fact churning out...but their perspective of it is always it is the next best thing since sliced bread. 

Ok...well...I do know a couple folks who are happy churning out the bare minimum of creative drivel for a pay check. But they admit to it and like you said are remaining among the bottom dwellers without a way out. 

I don't encourage ANYONE to not be exceptional with their music. You just have to be. But you also have to be prepared that some guy you know who is less than exceptional may in fact get their break at the right time with the right people. It has happened many times. And you can't let it phase you and your path.


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## kid-surf (Sep 30, 2009)

> I agree and I feel the same way about projects in my past. But really...who ever feels that their work is just "ok?" I certainly don't. I don't know many who feel they are churning out the status quo.



Agreed. But there's a simply barometer = Hollywood. What do they say? If they say it's crap, it's crap. If they say it's sliced bread, it's sliced bread. Meaning, it's all perception. But it's their perception that maters most. And...I generally believe they can spot quality. Whether or not they MAKE it is another story. [which I'll touch on, my way,  in my next post]



> I don't encourage ANYONE to not be exceptional with their music. You just have to be. But you also have to be prepared that some guy you know who is less than exceptional may in fact get their break at the right time with the right people. It has happened many times. And you can't let it phase you and your path.



Ok, gotcha. Yeah, of course not. I mean it's annoying to see less talented people catch breaks, but, normally, those people don't last. We can all rest assured that the top guys each deserve, beyond any shadow of doubt, to be there. THAT is my silver lining. Because THAT I can compete with, it's tangible. How can I compete with an unknowable factor (i.e. some hack lands some huge deal). That scenario doesn't make logical sense, thus I can't compete with that guy. But really, what do I care. I'm better than *that* guy, time proves truths. 

And btw - if some dude is kicking my ass fair and square, talented as hell, well then I admit that to myself to. This way I know how I need to grow.

In all honesty, those types [hacks] never show up on my radar as I know they are not my true competition. The fact of the matter, for me know, is that the folks I'm dealing with deal with my creative heros. These people know the difference between great and whatever it is that hack did, they passed on that guy. So, I know they're reading one of my heros script before or after reading mine, and mine had better stack up. I know what the benchmark REALLY is, if you catch my drift. I face it head on.


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## kid-surf (Sep 30, 2009)

Holy golly...Brian you do realize that Mechanic's philosophy is EXACTLY my philosophy, yes? :D These are some of the issues we've discussed in the past, and which you've disagreed with me on. He's now reiterating, more expertly, many of my philosophies.

QUOTING HIS WORDS:



> This despite the fact that these unconventional movies guided Fox to the 5 best years in its history.


Unconventional = Risky.

Again, my philosophy that risk pays, so long as it's intelligent risk.


> Dependent on distributors, financiers, and bankers, and distribution channels that understand the needs of the market even less than the corporations that own the studio.


I've said exactly that in the past. So, obviously I still agree with him.


> Attorneys and financial analysts picking movies is a recipe for disaster. They can tell you all day long what hasn’t recently worked, but in truth, haven’t the experience or the knowledge to do anything different than has already been done.


Amen! I've said that in the past as well.

Who has the experience/knowledge to do something different? First and foremost a quality screenwriter. This gives folks the platform with which to ride something FRESH/NEW to the bank


> That’s been the oddest lesson of this period for me. That the independent world, which should be aiming to do things better and different from the Studios, doesn’t have that as a mandate at all. If anything, the only thing that independent distributors and financiers look for is the SAME.



I've said that before too. Which is the reason I'm absolutely not interested in writing a knock-off Hollywood film for some shitty indie prodco. It's the VERY reason why an indie prodco would NOT seek to make my scripts in this climate, yet the same scripts put me in business with Hollywood taste-makers at the top of the game. The guys making the REAL version, not the knock off. Ironic? Not to me...



> It’s disrespectful if not downright dumb to think audiences can’t tell the difference between the original, which occasionally might even have some fresh faces, and the copy,



I've said that here, too. Yep, I trust the audience is VERY savvy, intelligent, etc. Which is why I refuse to write garbage. I know there are people out there MAYN PEOPLE hoping for a guy like me [stubborn in his convictions] to simply write a great movie, something they could NOT write, as opposed to this garbage that ANYONE could have written. 



> The exception to the rule is DISTRICT 9, which didn’t try to compete with the Majors with special effects or stars or plot. Instead of feeling recycled, it was fresh and is now one of the year’s best and most successful pictures. But lot of credit has to go to Peter Jackson since it was undoubtedly his clout that got the film made.


There seems to be an echo in here. 

I've said before that I could give a flip what a studio is *asking* for. That I am targeting the CREATIVES, the director and actor. Clearly, a movie that in Hollywood speak "shouldn't" have gotten made DID, and it was successful. What does some bean counter know about creating what people want to see. A: Fuck-all...


> Hollywood spends the majority of time focusing on, the under 25’s, are the ones finding other things to do.


This echo is becoming louder. 

Like I said, I have no interest (none) in writing for snot nosed 12 year old. The TV pilot I just wrote is for adults. The action/thriller I'm writing now is also for adults. By "adults", I mean you and I. Those great movies we loved as kids, that was written for adults. The film folks always point to as having the best score ever written STAR WARS, that was NOT written for 12 year olds. SURPRISE! We loved it. I think I was 7 years old. That's proof movies today are GARBAGE and worse, insulting.

The script I'm writing now is an antidote. Will it get made? Probably not, though I won't rule it out (I have two producers who I think are perfect for it). But that's not really the point, the point is to show the town that a script like that can become hotter than a garbage script. Why? Simple. Because it's good.


> And, more to the point, you can see that there is a 21% drop in film going amongst the core target audience and a 24% drop in the next key category, 25-39 year olds.


Hmmm. Why could that be? I can't remember the last film I was excited to see. It all looks THE SAME. I can spot that from here and I'm not even a rocket scientist.


> An independent couldn’t and shouldn’t make movies of that scale but it should make movies as individualistic and compelling.



Said that before too...

Yep, pretty obvious the market is WIDE OPEN for something great (indie and studio - but F' indie at this point). I really can't write fast enough. Though, I banged through my pilot in 11 DAYS including getting notes and turning around the rewrite.


> If you expect to be an average performer in this world, you can expect to fail.


I just said a version of that in this thread.


> Those who will win will be smart about what they make and how they sell their films. They will hopefully make good films but perhaps even more key they will make unique films that stand out, which means they will not have to compete against the bulk of the films for talent. They won’t look like all the other films so they won’t have to spend as much money marketing them.



That is the exact film I'm writing now. Simple reason why. The philosophy matches mine exactly.

Btw - had I not taken the *risk* to write the scripts I already did, had I written the safe garbage film, I would not be in the face of the people I am. This is all so obvious to me. Not that this makes it any easier to navigate, but it's clear as day what the solutions are. So, I head in that direction.


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## Brian Ralston (Sep 30, 2009)

kid-surf @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> Holy golly...Brian you do realize that Mechanic's philosophy is EXACTLY my philosophy, yes? :D These are some of the issues we've discussed in the past, and which you've disagreed with me on.



There is a HUGE difference JAY (at least how I see it) with me disagreeing with you about how things are in the industry or me disagreeing with you about how things should be in the industry. 

I don't disagree with you on how things should be. But the reality is..they way things currently are is NOT that way. Thus we can not go about thinking they are. We have to see it for what it is and for what it will most likely continue to be. The film/entertainment industry is NOT a creative art form in its current state. It does not strive to be cutting edge or to be profound in any way. *The film/entertainment industry, plain and simple, is an industrialized manufactured process.* 

The current problem with indies as he states (and I agree with and so do), is that they try to be like the majors. They smell like them. They act like them. They look like them. And that is creating a lot of cookie cutter formulaic crap that is further segmenting the limited financial resources and profits to be made. BUT...there is a reason this has happened and that reason is that this is a cut throat business to make money and not to create art or state a profound message to society. 

Mechanic is describing why the _indie_ film industry is failing and why it will continue to get worse. Because they are trying to play by the "big boy" rules. So what does that mean? Probably one of the only ways to get a paycheck in the near future is to be on a studio film...not an indie. And to do that, one is now again playing in the big boy sandbox by their big boy rules. 

You have to know how to play the game and at this point, that is really all that matters. Then once you are established and have a credit list that is respected...go ahead and make your personal character driven film. Just don't expect to get rich off of that one. :wink:


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## kid-surf (Sep 30, 2009)

> This is part of the point. The industry is NOT about breaking rules. It is about making money. And the only way to ensure you make the most amount of money with the least amount of risk is to follow proven models of success. This is true for what screenplays you greenlight...what TV shows you develop...



Sorry, didn't see that before...

I 100% disagree. And so does Bill Mechanic. You actually read his rant, correct? :D Is it that you do NOT agree with his take? Again, your regurgitating the studio mantra....Brian, you are a CREATIVE!!! 

There is no such word as "ensure" in Hollywood. Nobody would ever use that term, so I'll assume you misspoke (as I know you to be an intelligent dude). But it's the very reason nobody ever truly gives you an answer one way or the other until...until really the check has already been cashed.

But as far as risk: My TV show is a risk. It's fucked up. Yet my agent feels we've got a chance with it. Probably helps that the head guy over at ____ likes my work (my risky work). It's the reason we, when he was a producer, began looking for and ultimately began working on a project. The pilot I just wrote, the notes I got where to push it even further into the land of "risky". So I did. Now sure, you can say "well lets just see if you sell it". 100% true. I recognize that. But had this NOT been a risk I wouldn't have been led to some of the hottest producers in town. 

The biggest producer I've ben in the face of. We're talking, he's THE MAN, squarely. He dug my very risky script. So much so that he went to the head of a studio and basically TOLD them to acquire the rights to a foreign film for me to adapt. No, he didn't want to make MY script (the risky one) but that script convinced him that I could write this other film. Do the math on this.... risk = reward.

I would only say these things to us pals, in our little corner of the internet. Because, well, I want for us each to succeed. But RISK is the name of the game for he creative, it is EXACTLY how you make big things happen...and most importantly...happen with the right people. Which is key to becoming an A-lister.

Again, you seem to come at this stuff as if you;'re aiming to please a studio. What I'm saying to you is that there are ways to go around the studio, so long as you impress upon someone with MASSIVE credentials that you are the real deal. Those types don't necessarily care what a studio wants to do, their job is to fight to get made what THEY want to make. The higher up the ladder the less they care about a quick buck.

This producer told me, emphatically, to keep doing what I'm doing. To NOT write what they [studio] wants me to write, but to write QUALITY. I trust him implicitly.


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## kid-surf (Sep 30, 2009)

> There is a HUGE difference JAY (at least how I see it) with me disagreeing with you about how things are in the industry or me disagreeing with you about how things should be in the industry.



Is that what your issue is, that you feel I don't know/recognize what the rules are?

I've said this before, too: How could I not know how this works? My wife has been an agent at the most powerful agency in the world for over 10 years. So, I GET how it works, and the reasoning behind why it is this way. 

What I do NOT believe is that one must therefore play it THEIR way [i.e. the Studios way]. All they want from a screenwriter is for them to sit down, shut up and write something risk averse. I get it. Yet, the taste makers i this town are NOT looking to do that. Some of these guys are the 800 pound gorillas who can push your "risky" project right into getting made. In fact, I was talking to a studio head just the other day, who stated that he did not understand what the draw of a particular project was, or how they were going to pull it off, but that...he trusts this person to figure out how. The point being, the project is "risky", the right person was able to push it through.



> Probably one of the only ways to get a paycheck in the near future is to be on a studio film...not an indie. And to do that, one is now again playing in the big boy sandbox by their big boy rules.



No money in indie, right, that's why I bailed, had to. What I feel you're not getting is that risky projects can and do get pushed through with the right people vetting them. That is squarely a big boy throwing his weight around. It's part of the rules.



> You have to know how to play the game and at this point, that is really all that matters. Then once you are established and have a credit list that is respected...go ahead and make your personal character driven film. Just don't expect to get rich off of that one.



That's a general comment, correct?  'cause I just got through saying I'm not pursuing getting my indie film(s) made, that it's a waste of my time at present when I can play in the studio world. But let's be clear that one of them is a gritty ass action/thriller.  A very RISKY action/thriller...that put me in the face of an 800 pound gorilla A-lister of a producer, as well as, as I mentioned and other taste-makers around town. Those guys think of me as an action/thriller guy, not some character driven writer (yet they did like my character work all the same)...Character driven work, that's where TV comes in. That script put me in the faces of those people. No complaints.

But I've already stated that I wouldn't expect to make ANY money directing an indie. None! 

But you're mistaken about me needing some respected credit list in order to direct an indie (hypothetically, meaning if the financing world wasn't in the shitter). For example: Diablo Cody was attached to direct Jennifer's Body *before* JUNO was made. It's different with screenwriters and composers. Example, let's say my TV show sells with a couple of the hottest tv producers in town producing. That gives me significant cred. Yet, I still wouldn't have a produced writing credit. A screenwriter can be on fire around town and not have a produced writing credit. Not true for a composer. 


This is the game. If I wasn't playing the game I wouldn't be writing now, and none of this would be happening. Believe me, I'm playing the game,  and it's going quite well considering.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Sep 30, 2009)

Good point Troels.

The technology factor is definitely of importance and will have a huge impact in reducing costs to produce a film or an animation feature.
What took a whole team to accomplish is now possible for a one well-trained creator with top-notch gear.

The whole distribution factor is also changing, so we may not need be so pessimistic after all...

It won't be done the old way, but there is plenty of room for hope.

If anything those that may be the most pessimistic are the BIG studios, since their monopoly may be about to crumble...
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## Brian Ralston (Sep 30, 2009)

kid-surf @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> I 100% disagree. And so does Bill Mechanic. You actually read his rant, correct? :D Is it that you do NOT agree with his take? Again, your regurgitating the studio mantra....Brian, you are a CREATIVE!!!



Jay...none of my response are or were directed directly at you or your screenwriting stories and situations. Pretty much everything is a general statement about the industry. I was not stating how it should be in the world of "Brian." I was stating how it is in the world of the studios and the suits who sit at a desk and greenlight projects and bond production companies to make films and TV shows. Many of those people are not and never will be "creatives". They are financial analysts and bean counters. That is how it is. That is how it will be for years to come. Unless Hollywood starts taking the opinion that they should risk literally billions of dollars in this economy...(which will never happen as long as they are publicly traded companies with shareholders to impress with profit margins)...their rules are how it works. 

Again....Hollywood is an industrialized manufacturing process. It always has been. They don't call it the film "industry" and the entertainment "business" for nothing.


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## The_Dark_Knight (Oct 1, 2009)

midphase @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> Actually Troels, I kinda hope not. As a matter of fact, despite me saying something dickish right about now...I hope a chunk of wannabes hang it up for good and go find something else to do.



Yeah, an Exodus, count me in please. Want out of the business bad, told to hang in there and really sick of it. What to do with the surplus gift I wonder. The one that salvaged my broken mind, and told me to give even though there were none so deserving in this criminal empire called life.

The hollywood sign clearly states:
Artists keep the fuck out. (but leave the drugs)

I wish I'd gotten the memo. But I can't really decipher satanic texts very well.

Composer is your slave name. Success is just another word for oppress. It's not victory, it's abuse.

PRIDELESS PRODUCTIONs, LLC

yours,
Captain Exodus


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## Brobdingnagian (Oct 1, 2009)

The_Dark_Knight @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> midphase @ Wed Sep 30 said:
> 
> 
> > The hollywood sign clearly states:
> > Artists keep out.



Actually, it even more clearly states:

Young composers DO NOT go it alone. Ye must attach thyself like a barnacle on a whale's belly to a more successful composer and hope that the crumbs he/she cannot be bothered to score, (due to the rubbish budget) falls into your gullet. Fret not, he/she will take a "score produced by" credit. We are seeing more and more of this. Please do not believe the hype in the composer press and read twixt the lines, me lads.

Alas, I realize that I have led this thread astray - so lest me right the ship.

If one can come out of the next few years making a living or even thriving, then you will have won a major victory. Even more so if you have gone it alone (not taking umbrage under the Kelp Paddy of a major composer). Then again, who cares or needs to earn THAT badge of courage?

However, with the lower number of projects it will be tougher. Remember, there will still be ex-Rock stars, established composers and the guys we all love to hate........drum roll......eh, actually, make that a thunderous Taiko Roll........ the Zimmer crew mopping up work. Join or DIE!

Keep the wind in your sails and an eye on the gathering storm over Santa Monica.....

(never really "righted" the thread, but needed to shift a bit to The Dark Knight's side.....for laughs...... and empathy). My apologies Brian & Kid.


:shock:


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## Brian Ralston (Oct 1, 2009)

Brobdingnagian @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> Actually, it even more clearly states:
> 
> Young composers DO NOT go it alone. Ye must attach thyself like a barnacle on a whale's belly to a more successful composer and hope that the crumbs he/she cannot be bothered to score, (due to the rubbish budget) falls into your gullet. [/quote:e2fòE   ±À¿E   ±ÀÀE   ±ÀÁE   ±ÀÂE   ±ÀÃE   ±ÀÄE   ±ÀÅE   ±ÀÆE   ±ÀÇE   ±ÀÈE   ±ÀÉE   ±ÀÊE   ±ÀËE   ±ÀÌE   ±ÀÍE   ±ÀÎE   ±ÀÏE   ±ÀÐE   ±ÀÑE   ±ÀÒE   ±ÀÓE   ±ÀÔE   ±ÀÕE   ±ÀÖE   ±À×E   ±ÀØE   ±ÀÙE   ±ÀÚE   ±ÀÛE   ±ÀÜE   ±ÀÝE   ±ÀÞE   ±ÀßE   ±ÀàE   ±ÀáE   ±ÀâE   ±ÀãE   ±ÀäE   ±ÀåE   ±ÀæE   ±ÀçE   ±ÀèE   ±ÀéE   ±ÀêE   ±ÀëE   ±ÀìE   ±ÀíE   ±ÀîE   ±ÀïE   ±ÀðE   ±ÀñE   ±ÀòE   ±ÀóE   ±ÀôE   ±ÀõE   ±ÀöE   ±À÷E   ±ÀøE   ±ÀùE   ±ÀúE   ±ÀûE   ±ÀüE   ±ÀýE   ±ÀþE   ±ÀÿE   ±Á E   ±ÁE   ±ÁE   ±ÁE   ±ÁE   ±ÁE   ±ÁE   ±ÁE   ±ÁE   ±Á	E   ±Á
> E   ±ÁE   ±ÁE   ±Á E   ±ÁE   ±ÁE   ±ÁE   ±ÁE   ±ÁE   ±ÁE   ±ÁE   ±ÁE   ±ÁE   ±ÁE   ±ÁE   ±ÁE   ±ÁE   ±ÁE   ±ÁE   ±ÁE   ±ÁE   ±ÁE   ±Á E   ±Á!E   ±Á"E


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## Brobdingnagian (Oct 1, 2009)

Well said, Midphase.

I don't often agree wit yer, but me tinks you caught me drift! Cheers!

I t'aint just seein' dis with the folks over in Santa Monica neider.... Revell, Danna, Isham and other Cap'ns are sharin' the gold...I mean credits.........

Why do the heavy liftin' when the treasure is a wheee too small. Easier to scibe a main theme and "produce" the score while Johnny Mc Cabin boy composes the rest.....

Sometimes, I dream of what my life might have been like if I had been a Cabin Boy.......and then a Mermaid wakes me from my sleep.....

Good luck today Maties!


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## Brian Ralston (Oct 1, 2009)

midphase @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> Brian,
> 
> I think you're misreading what he said. I think there are composer's assistants and composer's assistants. I don't think anyone is disputing the time honored tradition of learning the trade from a more experienced craftsman. But you must admit that this is not always the case in Hollywood today. From what I heard (and I heard quite a lot of first hand accounts), some of the bigger outfits who rely on small armies of "assistants" (you know which ones I'm referring to) and not healthy ecosystems. They don't foster healthy learning through observation and assistance, but rather a rapacious and scavenger-like environment that rewards imitation and uniformity over discovering one's own voice.



No, I heard what he said. And I just have always disagreed that being a composer's assistant is the way to a composer career for one's self. It is valid work. It is to be commended. One can make good money doing it. I have had assistants work for me (though I do not use ghost writers). At a certain point, one needs a team of folks to handle bigger productions. There is a need for "assistants." But I think one just has to know up front...it is probably not the best way to a solid career of making a name for YOURSELF. 

What I am saying is that the people who hire composers (really the director...but producers can say yay or ney too)...will not hire someone to be IN CHARGE of something who does not have a track record of being IN CHARGE. That is the way it is. It is not changing. One will never get a Dept. Head Position of Composer on a studio level film (where millions upon millions of dollars are at risk if it goes wrong) without ever proving you have been successful being a Dept. Head "composer" on a list of other films. The head credit...one in charge...one responsible...is everything. 

Hence...I fully believe and encourage guys to essentially do what you do. And do what I have been doing. Spend that time wisely building your own composer career and not someone else's with your compositional work. It will be slow going at first...but in the long run, you will look back and be in a lot better position years down the road than you would be if you spent years doing the assistant thing in the hopes of getting some leavings thrown your way...and then at that point you still don't have any "in charge" credits. Assistant to <insert name here> is not being in charge of anything. 

I was told by a top level hollywood producer who I have worked directly with (and who has had academy nominated films)...that _"Director is the ONLY entry level position in Hollywood." _ 

If one thinks about that...it is really true. A studio will give a first time director a shot because if they discover someone new, they get to take credit for this "new vision." But look at what they do when that happens. They surround that new director with veteran established people in EVERY department around them, Producer, Editor, DP, Composer, Production Designer, Gaffer, Sound Mixer, and of course headliner talent in front of the camera as well, etc....

Every single one of the key crew positions will be veteran guys so that if the director screws it up...it really won't matter too much. The movie will still be competently made. The key crew guys will probably still be loyal to the studio and not the new director guy. The studio can make the movie they WANT to make regardless of what happens with the director. This happens all the time. Unless you are talking about a Peter Jackson, or Spielberg, or Zemekis level director...many times they don't really matter too much to a studio until they have proven themselves. they don't get "final cut" until much later in their career. 

Notice that the composer is one of those veteran guys the studio will surround a novice director with. Credit history matters. Success on past films matter. And the only way to get to that status is to build your own name for yourself on your own films over the course of many years as the lead composer IN CHARGE. You don't get that status by being someone's assistant.


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## Brobdingnagian (Oct 1, 2009)

Brobdingnagian @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> Being new to the pirate lifestyle, the sarcastic tone of my quote might have shivered me timbers, but alas never came across the tide the right way.
> 
> I actually I agree with you all the way down to 1,000 fathoms, me boy! We can lest me career and hearty life attest to it.



Once again me lad!

Brian. I agree with you. I was being Cynical and Sarcastic. I was having a whee bit o' fun dis 'morn!

Often times 'tis a longer road on one's own, but far more secure (in the long run) and rewarding with all of the relationships one themselves build.
=o 

Really gotta set sail now.


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## Brian Ralston (Oct 1, 2009)

Brobdingnagian @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> Brobdingnagian @ Thu Oct 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Often times 'tis a longer road on one's own, but far more secure (in the long run) and rewarding with all of the relationships one themselves build.
> ...



Happy sailing! 
o-[][]-o


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## JohnG (Oct 1, 2009)

I agree that, to get a major career going, one has to have some credits that are one's own, but there is a significant legitimisation and learning process that goes on for people who have "additional music by" credits on big films.

Adding such credits into the mix absolutely makes an impression on people in studios. Plus, one can learn a lot.

And independent films certainly are going through a very bad patch, based on sales at Cannes and Toronto.


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## kid-surf (Oct 1, 2009)

> Jay...none of my response are or were directed directly at you or your screenwriting stories and situations. Pretty much everything is a general statement about the industry.



Bri...I get/got that. Believe it or not, we agree on "the way it GENERALLY is out there". Again, that's never been the issue in our debate(s). Like I said, how could I NOT know this stuff after 16 years of my wife working at the #1 agency in the world (not to mention myself working in different facets of the industry)? Impossible. So no, that's not the issue. Can we be totally clear on that once and for all?



> I was not stating how it should be in the world of "Brian."



There's our impasse. The idea I'm trying to get you to wrap your brain (or Brian  ) around, is the idea that there is no ONE WAY to fulfill a career. 

You seem to love statistics, generalities, odds. Yet, for me, specific scenarios always reveal far more than generalities/statistics/odds. It's the reason I normally speak in specifics, as opposed to generalities.

Example: Statistics /generalities/odds say that neither Brian nor Kid will ever make it. So, now what...we give up? Follow me?

I'll put it to you this way: The "fact" of the matter (as some would say) is that I should not be where I'm at right now. The "odds" of one doing that are probably a million to one, literally. And yet...


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## kid-surf (Oct 1, 2009)

> I was told by a top level hollywood producer who I have worked directly with (and who has had academy nominated films)...that "Director is the ONLY entry level position in Hollywood."



Well then, I'm surprised he'd put director before screenwriter. It's a well known fact that the MOST entry level [creative] position in this town is that of a screenwriter. So no, his statement is not true...it's false.



> A studio will give a first time director a shot because if they discover someone new, they get to take credit for this "new vision."



You are forgetting to mention that this director [if he's directing a studio film] has likely directed an indie film that caught significant buzz. Which means, he was IN CHARGE of said film. And if he's a filmmaker's director...he also wrote it.



> If one thinks about that...it is really true. A studio will give a first time director a shot because if they discover someone new, they get to take credit for this "new vision." But look at what they do when that happens. They surround that new director with veteran established people in EVERY department around them, Producer, Editor, DP, Composer, Production Designer, Gaffer, Sound Mixer, and of course headliner talent in front of the camera as well, etc....



And yet...none of these veteran guys last credit was an indie film...including the composer. Why not? Simple, obviously [to them: Studio] said indie composer can't possibly do the job, regardless of his IN CHARGE credit on the indie. That's what you seem to be championing, Brian.



> Every single one of the key crew positions will be veteran guys so that if the director screws it up...it really won't matter too much. The movie will still be competently made. The key crew guys will probably still be loyal to the studio and not the new director guy. The studio can make the movie they WANT to make regardless of what happens with the director. This happens all the time. Unless you are talking about a Peter Jackson, or Spielberg, or Zemekis level director...many times they don't really matter too much to a studio until they have proven themselves. they don't get "final cut" until much later in their career.



You're stretching this into the stratosphere: There are only a handful of directors on the planet who EVER get final cut. Are you assuming that said director, who doesn't have final cut, is therefore a hack? Or are you merely pointing out the obvious "status quo"? I'm asking.

I'll tell you what though; any crew guy who is intentionally undermining the director, that guy should be sent packing immediately. I do not believe these crew guys are that unprofessional - as a rule. 

Otherwise, obviously the studio wants the movie they want, they own it.



> Notice that the composer is one of those veteran guys the studio will surround a novice director with. Credit history matters. Success on past films matter. And the only way to get to that status is to build your own name for yourself on your own films over the course of many years as the lead composer IN CHARGE. You don't get that status by being someone's assistant.



You've got a hole in your story. That being: Said "veteran" composer has ALREADY done a studio movie, by your math.


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## kid-surf (Oct 1, 2009)

JohnG @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> I agree that, to get a major career going, one has to have some credits that are one's own, but there is a significant legitimisation and learning process that goes on for people who have "additional music by" credits on big films.
> 
> Adding such credits into the mix absolutely makes an impression on people in studios. Plus, one can learn a lot.
> 
> And independent films certainly are going through a very bad patch, based on sales at Cannes and Toronto.



Agreed...


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## kid-surf (Oct 1, 2009)

Btw -- you know I luv ya Bri, this is just chit-chat. o-[][]-o


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## Brian Ralston (Oct 1, 2009)

kid-surf @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> Btw -- you know I luv ya Bri, this is just chit-chat. o-[][]-o



I know Jay. The feeling is mutual. o-[][]-o 

But I stand by my opinions and observations of the last 8 years of working. Sorry. And I certainly respect the lessons and advice I have been given from those in my life whose careers and body of work in this industry are truly exceptional. (As do you.) I choose to share that with the people on this forum...many of which do not have access to this kind of information or industry "theory." Many composers are myopic to music issues only. I have found this to be mostly true. Hopefully through my experience and the lessons I have learned, what I share or opine on can be of help to other composers here to learn more about the industry as a whole and not be so myopic to music only. But to more fully understand where they fit within the entire process...which is a small (but important) part of a very large team of people. 

Everyone's path is different. Yours is different than mine. Your experiences and the people around you are different than mine. I recognize that. I hope you do too.


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## kid-surf (Oct 2, 2009)

Yes...I respect your position, it's what is true for you...as mine is what is true for me. Our positions pretty well paint the unexpurgated landscape of Hollywood philosophies. 

It could be said that one could hang with either Michael Bay or Michael Mann, both are named Michael, both make movies - but you'll come away from the experience with two polar philosophies about just what the right way to make a movies, is.

I tend to be surrounded by those individuals who forge a unique path through the Hollywood system. It's a philosophy which I adhere to, fully.

And if you hadn't noticed...I'm somewhat opinionated about it all.  

No harm no foul. o-[][]-o


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