# Orchestrating strings



## SeanM1960 (Nov 23, 2014)

Orchestrating strings

Hey everyone. I am trying to better my string orchestration chops, and was hoping some of you who are more experinced than I can help point me in the right direction. I hate to seem like I am asking you to "do it for me", so I am going to go ahead and type what I think might work.

Below is a very simple and typical 4-note prgression of bass and celli playing in octaves. I chose this, because it is indeed so simple, and thought it would be a good starting point.

I want to add violas and 1st/2nd violins, but am not sure how to go about this. I want the other three sections to be playing single notes for the same duration. I was thinking about violas up one octave, so that starting point would be D2, and then I was thinking about the violins, and putting them at D3 and D4. And then I would like 5ths, So, I was going to go divisi on the Violins at A3 and A4. Does this make sense? Let me know if I should post more pics.

Thanks!


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## ed buller (Nov 23, 2014)

hi

i'd like to help but to be honest it's a bit hard to know what to suggest with just 4 notes. Also did you mean the b in the last bar to be a flat ? . is that dissonance what your after 

e


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## amordechai (Nov 23, 2014)

A couple of observations and tips:

The leap between bars 6 and 7 is in my opinion too dramatic. Unless you're going after a specific effect, I'd try to make basslines that are more easily singable. And, btw, B natural or B flat? :D

You suggest starting with a D on the violins and violas... Even with a little bit of divisi writing, you'd get 4 (cb, vc, vla, 1/2 vl1 1/2 vl2) Ds and 1 (1/2 vl1 1/2 vl2) A. Pardon my crude math! In my opinion that's an unbalanced way of distributing notes. You should decide if you want the "in your face unisono" sound or open fifths... and orchestrate consequently.

I would use divisi writing only if you have a distinct sound in mind you want to ricreate or you want a special effect. At first I'd advise you to write as if you had a string quartet at your disposal. When your 4-part writing is fluent you can start to spice things up.

If you continue your sibelius sketch I can tell you more about what I think.

- A


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## JT (Nov 23, 2014)

I don't want to seem rude, but it seems like you're wandering in the dark, not knowing where to start.

If that's the case, instead of wandering aimlessly down this road, you should be studying scores. There are several orchestration books that I'm sure you would find helpful, including those by forum member Peter Alexander.


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## dahnielson (Nov 23, 2014)

I fully agree with the previous contributors to this thread. The reason it's hard to help you at this stage is because you haven't yet harmonized the progression (i.e. coming up with the chords). Once you got it harmonized then there's something to arrange and do voice leading for.

Writing whole note pads for string is generally a little bit "boring" and sometimes tiresome to listen to. The practice is sometimes referred to as "footballing" by string players. You can get more out of the string section if you let them play an ostinato instead.

I agree that there is no need to start writing divisi until you have something interesting for the strings to do. Practice four part writing (v1, v2, va, vc with the cb either doubling vc an octave down or in unison or not playing at all).

Also, you don't need to use the whole string ensamble all the time. Use different combinations to create different colors. Just look at the table of content for Professional Orchestration Vol 2A PDF: Orchestrating the Melody Within the String Section by Peter Alexander to get an idea and overview of what's possible (a plus sign means unison and a minus sign means in octaves). You can also divide the string sections into two halves (e.g. one half being v1 + vc and another v2 + va - cb) and give them two different things to do (e.g. rhythmically). I recommend that you start by studying some scores and reading Rimsky-Korsakov's Principles of Orchestration available at IMSLP (it's free).


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## SeanM1960 (Nov 23, 2014)

Thanks guys.

There was a flat missing in the first pic; not sure how that happened.

So, below is kinda what I am_ I think_ after. It's in Dm, if that's not already obvious.

So the question is, is this "right"? I understand that alot of this is subjective, but I am wondering if this can work in the real world. Is the gap between the basses and celli too much? Should I fill that in with woods? One thing is, I am not trying to create minor and major chords here, so thats why there are no 3rds. 

Thanks again.


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## iaink (Nov 23, 2014)

Were you sent here to test us about the use of parallel 5ths?


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## bryla (Nov 23, 2014)

You could spent some time reducing string sections to see how chords are voiced in that section. 

Be sure to study harmony and the technique of voice leading. I can recommend the harmony book by Robert Gauldin.


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## muk (Nov 24, 2014)

It is important to learn about harmony, voice leading, and counterpoint. So I'd strongly advise to learn it thoroughly!
Still, here's a good online resource about orchestration:

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/77-Principles-of-Orchestration-On-line (http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/for ... on-On-line)


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## Living Fossil (Nov 24, 2014)

Sean,
if that what you've done in your example is exactly that specific sound you wanted, you've done it right. That has to be stated very clearly. There are no fixed "rules" and you could find similar textures even in masterpieces (of the XXth century).
The problem starts there, where this specific sound isn't exactly what you wanted.

What you've done is basically a fixed mixture (that would correspond with the harmonics 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 12, 16, 24.) that has a melodic implication rather than a harmonic, while the interval of the fifth is quite prominent; so it's kind of "powerchord" for strings. Depending on the articulation of the players it could even sound a bit like a synthetic organ. (iirc Penderecki has done some similar textures in a piece with the aim to imitate an organ, it's a bit more complex in his score though)

However, probably that's not exactly what you wanted and since nobody except you has a direct insight into your brain it's hard to tell what you really wanted.
There are general "rules" that may help you to get to specific results, but when it comes to orchestration, there are so many concepts that the only way is to learn them till you can trust your intention in choosing the appropriate way.

There are some books about orchestration that may help you, and there are scores easily available (imspl.org) to study. There is no "easy way" to get what you want, and to ask people about their opinion is only possible if you have a concrete "idea" that you put in words.

Best regards,
Sigi


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## SeanM1960 (Nov 24, 2014)

FriFlo @ Mon Nov 24 said:


> This must be a very early April's fool ...



Am I that bad? Really? Do I suck at this that bad that people think this is a joke?

To the rest of you, thank you.

I have added some 3rds - is it better this way? I am basically trying to find out that if you want chords, is this the best way to do it. Or should you really not do it this way, and have movement somewhere?

Bryla - I will look to see if I can find that book, thanks.


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## Jonathan Howe (Nov 24, 2014)

Hey Sean,

I think the problem is that you don't have a clear goal with your string orchestration. 
There are thousands of ways to orchestrate strings and there are a bunch of rules as well that you can break if that helps you achieve the effect you want.

Looking at your posts it seems like you yourself aren't really sure what kind of effect you are going for and that makes it really hard to give you pointers or feedback.

One way to learn this is by first learning all the rules to know what works in any case. Then you can later go ahead and change the rules to your liking.
One of these rules you are constantly breaking is voices moving in parallel fifths. Look at your VII and that should be apparent.

So I'd say either study other string orchestrations and see what they do or have a very clear idea in your head that you are trying to make the strings transport.
Right now it frankly looks like you are just randomly putting whole notes belonging to D Minor on paper. 

Hope that helps a little. Keep at it!


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## Hannes_F (Nov 24, 2014)

SeanM1960 @ Mon Nov 24 said:


> Am I that bad? Really? Do I suck at this that bad that people think this is a joke?



To be fair: yes :-D
You asked and this is the sober truth. But no problem, everybody has to start somewhere. 

It would be really helpful if you would learn how to write proper 4 part harmony (think Soprano, Alto, Tenor, Bass), this would serve you for life. If you can write for 4 voices without the usual pitfalls then you can write for choir, strings (which can be seen as a choir in itself too) and brass (which is a choir in itself too).

Later you can break the rules to your heart's content then.

Just in order to explain what 'rules' means: If you move your voices up and down in parallel fifths like you do in your example the individual voices will merge. Conventional wisdom needs some individuality for each of the four voices, but moving them in parallel octaves and fifths that individuality is lost.

If you want to make bold statements like fanfares that is good. If you want to have a smooth strings sound that is not what you want. Therefore you need some counter movement / not exactly parallel movement in some of the voices.


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## bryla (Nov 24, 2014)

Hey Sean,

Now that you have complete chords try this; no divisi, and let common tones from chord to chord stay in the same section.


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## MrVoice (Nov 24, 2014)

Sean, Im new to this also.
I got this tip from another thread here, its a proper start I think before digging in to heavy books :wink: 

http://music.tutsplus.com/series/arranging-for-strings--cms-607

/Nick


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## SeanM1960 (Dec 1, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Mon Nov 24 said:


> SeanM1960 @ Mon Nov 24 said:
> 
> 
> > Am I that bad? Really? Do I suck at this that bad that people think this is a joke?
> ...



Well, thank you Hannes! That was a very well-thought out, and delightful post. So very nice of you. Thank you so much!!!

:roll: 

MrV - thanks. Will check that out.

Bryla - thank you. So I have done just that, and what I would up with is below. Not bad, but I think there are two problems. 1. too big a gap in places 2. I can't get the violins up higher, which I would like to. Ok, I could - but then the gaps would be bigger. Thats why I had the divisi there to begin with. I dont know - I am not experienced enough to know if these are issues. Are they?

So, what I am trying to do, is play some string chords over a rock/metal peice. The string chords match the chord progression that the guitar and bass are playing. But again - I am looking for the "right way" to go about this. Thanks to all once again.


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## bryla (Dec 2, 2014)

well you did the 'no dives' part, but you don't keep common notes in the same voice.

First chord DFA second is FAC. Now from the first to the next (except for the bass) move only the D to C and proceed like that.


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## muk (Dec 2, 2014)

It's a bit better, but still not good. There are still gruesome parallel fifths between Vl 2 and Celli/Bass/Vla. Don't write parallel fifths! It's easier to avoid them - and it will sound better - if not all sections move in the same direction constantly. Have a section hold a common chord tone. Or, for example, when the bass moves up, have the Vl 2 move down etc. These are common principles of voice leading, which I'd advise reading into. It's not utterly difficult, and it's actually fun to dig into.

About the problems you mention: the violins can easily go higher with not too much a gap. Here's how: don't have the violas double the bass line. It's not necessary (Celli and basses are strong enough). It thickens the sound without need and sounds unbalanced.
Instead the violas can play any chord tone and help filling the spread between the celli/double bass and the violins 1.

Here's the same excerpt with correct voice leading. There are no parallel fifths/octaves. Also no hidden fifths/octaves. The last chord progression from c to b flat is difficult. It doesn't lend itself to smooth voice leading. So you'd probably want to alter the harmony there or work with inversions. For the sake of comparison I didn't alter it.

And here the audio demo. I just quickly threw it together, so it's not refined. But it should do for our purpose. Your version from the post above comes second (I wanted it to come first, but somehow I screwed it when glueing them together. Oh well...). You can really hear the parallel fifths and how it is heavy on the low end. The first example is the voice leading I posted below. Sounds a bit more balanced, doesn't it?

[flash width=450 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F179594953&secret_url=false[/flash]

Direct link if you don't have flash: https://soundcloud.com/linos-music/voice-leading


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## Hannes_F (Dec 2, 2014)

SeanM1960 @ Tue Dec 02 said:


> Well, thank you Hannes! That was a very well-thought out, and delightful post. So very nice of you. Thank you so much!!!
> 
> :roll:



Sean, instead of being sarcastic it would have been much better if you had actually read and understood my post. Fully. You did not, as your later example showed. I took some time in order to explain a basic but fundamental point, and I believe this is exactly the issue that you are struggling with at this point.


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## Lawson. (Dec 2, 2014)

muk @ Tue Dec 02 said:


> It's a bit better, but still not good. There are still gruesome parallel fifths between Vl 2 and Celli/Bass/Vla. Don't write parallel fifths! It's easier to avoid them - and it will sound better - if not all sections move in the same direction constantly. Have a section hold a common chord tone. Or, for example, when the bass moves up, have the Vl 2 move down etc. These are common principles of voice leading, which I'd advise reading into. It's not utterly difficult, and it's actually fun to dig into.
> 
> About the problems you mention: the violins can easily go higher with not too much a gap. Here's how: don't have the violas double the bass line. It's not necessary (Celli and basses are strong enough). It thickens the sound without need and sounds unbalanced.
> Instead the violas can play any chord tone and help filling the spread between the celli/double bass and the violins 1.
> ...



Wouldn't this be a smoother version?

https://soundcloud.com/lawson-madlener/ ... sx/s-H3Qy1


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 2, 2014)

Harmony 1, 4-part harmony. There are lots of books, but the default is Walter Piston.


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## williambass5 (Dec 9, 2014)

I really applaud your efforts and everyone who is giving a hand.

Bottom line is that this really isn't THAT easy. First year theory classes spend a great deal of time practicing what you are trying to accomplish. The goals and premises are basically the same for a simple whole note string backdrop as for more complex orchestrations. 

Keep going! You are on the right track. Much of the enjoyment comes from the challenge..for me anyway. I think all of us are always on a quest to find another piece of the puzzle- how can I make this "BETTER??"!

It isn't like you can or can't do it, but are always on the hunt for ways to do what you want to do a little better (if that makes sense?).


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## skyy38 (Feb 3, 2016)

SeanM1960 said:


> Am I that bad? Really? Do I suck at this that bad that people think this is a joke?
> 
> To the rest of you, thank you.
> 
> ...



How about chords with a melody on top?


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