# Help tracking source of a few classic Hollywood chord progressions - from those knowledgeable in Gol



## mducharme (Oct 12, 2013)

I am trying to track down the source of a few chord progressions as they pertain in Hollywood movies. I realize they are modal in nature. Both of these are older, more "classic" Hollywood progressions as opposed to the newer overused vi-IV-I-V(-vi-IV-I-V etc.) progression that appears a ton in modern scores and pop.

bVI-bVII-I - Goldsmith used this cadence a lot (ex. the universal studios fanfare, capricorn one, etc.). The earliest conspicuous usage I have found of it so far is it is the big final cadence at the end of Elmer Bernstein's score to Battles of Chief Pontiac from 1952. I'm eager to discover earlier sources to try to find its etymology. I expect it was probably in some earlier film as the final grand cadence, that Bernstein himself probably didn't invent it. Does anybody know of earlier usages of this progression?

bVII-V - David Newman's theme to Galaxy Quest used this, but it was from Bernstein's The Magnificent Seven (1960) as well as Link Wray's "Rumble" from 1958 in popular music. This particular progression is interesting because it does not have strong modal roots - flat-7 moves through the leading tone to the tonic in a chromatic fashion. Since Rumble pioneered the power chord, it's possible that this progression developed as a means to use power chords rather than having a modal (ex. folk) source, and made it into film scores that way. It was certainly popular in 60s pop tunes, and Goldsmith's The Trouble with Angels theme used it to emulate a Beatle-esque sound. However an earlier instance of this progression in film scores than Rumble from 1958 may disprove this hypothesis. Does anybody know of any earlier usages of this progression?

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!


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## ed buller (Oct 13, 2013)

ask Mark Richards

http://www.filmmusicnotes.com

great website too

e


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## Casey Edwards (Oct 13, 2013)

mducharme @ Sat Oct 12 said:


> ...to the newer overused vi-IV-I-V(-vi-IV-I-V etc.) progression that appears a ton in modern scores and pop.



First, I have to address this because I see it everywhere all the time and I don't know why. The chord progression is not vi-IV-I-V, it's i-VI-III-VII. When i is the tonic you don't call it vi. Now...


For references, just listen to tons of Korngold, Steiner, Waxman, Parker, Herrmann, etc. You'll find what you're looking for if you start transcribing. You'll see a lot of traditional use of classical progressions with a Hollywood twist! Once example I can think of is you can hunt down references from Elfman's Batman in Hindemith's Mathis der Maler. Pretty cool stuff.


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## mducharme (Oct 13, 2013)

I don't usually hear that progression as i-VI-III-VII. I hear the tonic on the third chord in the series, due to the close primary triad relationship of the latter three chords, and the weak functions they would have if the first chord was the tonic. The deceptive resolution sound of V moving to vi cements that interpretation in my ears. I am not mis-analyzing it - when I hear that progression, I don't hear the tonic coming in until the third chord. The more it is repeated, the clearer the third chord becomes felt as the tonic. Not every progression has to start with the tonic. You may hear it differently, that does not make my interpretation wrong. I was thoughtful, not careless, in my choice of analysis.

I have already been listening to quite a few of the more popular scores from the Golden Age and I have not heard a single conspicuous example of the cadential progressions I have listed so far. Korngold etc. more of a romantic chromatic harmony basis and are more likely to use the more Wagnerian iv-iv(add6)-I motion, or your standard IV-V-I at a final cadence than the bVI-bVII-I that would become the Hollywood one. I do hear a number of chromatic mediants in the music of those early composers but that is not the same as the cadential progressions I am curious about, which are highly functional even though they are modal. It is not feasible for me to watch all Golden Age films or listen to their scores just to try to see if I can find, or cannot find, the progressions in question. It is a rather impossible to prove that bVII-V was never used in film music prior to pop music without going through all film scores prior to the 1958 pop music piece and looking at all cadences within them, which would be a mammoth task, but I am curious if I have a shot of at least proving that it was very rarely used until after pop music started to use it.

The bVI-bVII-I, since it was used at least as early as 1952 by Bernstein in a Western, may have influenced pop music in the 60s but that would be difficult to prove. Either way, all examples I can think of with this progression occurred after they became more popular through pop music. Everything before was very Golden Age and used 19th century chromatic harmony a la Wagner and Richard Strauss. It seems likely the Western genre introduced these progressions, that's why I've been looking more closely at Western films, and how I found it in the Bernstein 1952.


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## Casey Edwards (Oct 13, 2013)

mducharme @ Sun Oct 13 said:


> I don't usually hear that progression as i-VI-III-VII. I hear the tonic on the third chord in the series, due to the close primary triad relationship of the latter three chords, and the weak functions they would have if the first chord was the tonic. The deceptive resolution sound of V moving to vi cements that interpretation in my ears. I am not mis-analyzing it - when I hear that progression, I don't hear the tonic coming in until the third chord. The more it is repeated, the clearer the third chord becomes felt as the tonic. Not every progression has to start with the tonic. You may hear it differently, that does not make my interpretation wrong. I was thoughtful, not careless, in my choice of analysis.
> 
> I have already been listening to quite a few of the more popular scores from the Golden Age and I have not heard a single conspicuous example of the cadential progressions I have listed so far. Korngold etc. more of a romantic chromatic harmony basis and are more likely to use the more Wagnerian iv-iv(add6)-I motion, or your standard IV-V-I at a final cadence than the bVI-bVII-I that would become the Hollywood one. I do hear a number of chromatic mediants in the music of those early composers but that is not the same as the cadential progressions I am curious about, which are highly functional even though they are modal. It is not feasible for me to watch all Golden Age films or listen to their scores just to try to see if I can find, or cannot find, the progressions in question. It is a rather impossible to prove that bVII-V was never used in film music prior to pop music without going through all film scores prior to the 1958 pop music piece and looking at all cadences within them, which would be a mammoth task, but I am curious if I have a shot of at least proving that it was very rarely used until after pop music started to use it.
> 
> The bVI-bVII-I, since it was used at least as early as 1952 by Bernstein in a Western, may have influenced pop music in the 60s but that would be difficult to prove. Either way, all examples I can think of with this progression occurred after they became more popular through pop music. Everything before was very Golden Age and used 19th century chromatic harmony a la Wagner and Richard Strauss. It seems likely the Western genre introduced these progressions, that's why I've been looking more closely at Western films, and how I found it in the Bernstein 1952.



I'll do some more listening to some of the pieces I have on my hard-drive when I have some free time. And I wasn't trying to imply an opinion on the progression - the fact of the matter is that the VII - i IS the cadence. You can hear it however you'd like, but in terms of harmonic analysis the cadence is VII to i in a minor key. I have plenty of textbook references and hw from years ago to back that up from an academic standpoint. However, in terms of opinion, I still don't see how anyone could hear that as a pull to III? I'm not saying you're stupid or anything so please don't get upset, just merely saying play the first three chords and then tell me where your ear pulls you. Back to i to my ears, which clearly puts this progression in a minor key. Maybe someone else has an opinion, but my years in college and private study beg to differ with your statements about pulling to a major key in this particular progression.

As a last thought - check out Prokofiev's 5th Symphony. Particularly the II mvt. Tons of JW moments in there which may help you to find a few of those fun cadences. Doesn't the bVI-bVII-I progression show up during the Also Spach Zarathustra piece? I'd also look into some composers like Respighi and Vaughn-Williams for some of those famous cadences. From what I remember they often use "hollywood" esque pulls. Let me know what you find.


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## ed buller (Oct 13, 2013)

weird one. Sounds like the first chord IS the tonic to me too. 

I think Mr Elfman was probably referencing Herrmann rather than Hindemith. He took quite a liberty with "five Fingers" in Pee Wee too. 

as to that chord progression it sounds a bit copeland to me. 

e


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## mducharme (Oct 13, 2013)

Or for the vi-IV-I-V / i-VI-III-VII you could go all neo-riemannian on the progression rather than using functional chord symbols, that way you don't have to worry about which is the tonic:

L transformation - LR transformation - LR transformation - RLR transformation (which brings you back to the start)

But anyhow, I do agree that the last chord is the cadence, except that due to the phrasing, the cadence is a half-cadence ending on V (or VII in your analysis). The progression immediately following it being deceptive, V-vi, or being bVII-i in your analysis. The sense of the third chord being tonic is only very weakly created with a IV-I progression and the deceptive resolution, creating this sort of very floaty progression. 

I think it would be improper to say that the progression ends with a V-vi deceptive cadence or a bVII-i cadence, no matter how it is analyzed, because the latter of those two chords is what starts the second phrase. The same way as we say that each phrase of the Star Wars main theme ends in a half cadence on V, not a V-I authentic, because the I belongs to the beginning of the following phrase, not the termination of the preceding one, and then does not participate in the cadence proper.


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## ed buller (Oct 13, 2013)

Casey Edwards @ Sun Oct 13 said:


> Doesn't the bVI-bVII-I progression show up during the Also Spach Zarathustra piece? I'd also look into some composers like Respighi and Vaughn-Williams for some of those famous cadences. From what I remember they often use "hollywood" esque pulls. Let me know what you find.



ahh that's where i heard it !

e


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## mducharme (Oct 13, 2013)

Nope, the big cadence at the end of the opening to Zarathustra, if that's what you mean, is vi-V-I with a standard 6-7-8 soprano complete with leading tone etc. Not modal at all. If you mean later in the work though, because it is quite long, perhaps. Although I don't know whether Richard Strauss did too much with modality, that was more of an impressionist thing.

I'm sure I will find bVI-bVII-i in Vaughan Williams due to his modality, the bVI-bVII-I might be a bit more of a push. I doubt I would find bVII-V in Vaughan Williams. I will check out the Respighi and Prokofiev though, thanks.


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## Casey Edwards (Oct 13, 2013)

ed buller @ Sun Oct 13 said:


> weird one. Sounds like the first chord IS the tonic to me too.
> 
> I think Mr Elfman was probably referencing Herrmann rather than Hindemith. He took quite a liberty with "five Fingers" in Pee Wee too.
> 
> ...



I just always hear a wee bit of Batman in this intro... I can't help it. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRySqup9mFw


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## ed buller (Oct 13, 2013)

i think theHollywood-esq pulls mentioned in Resphighi and Vaughn Williams are just their fondness for chromatic mediants. Especially the opening of Antartica Symphony. 

e


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## mducharme (Oct 13, 2013)

Another thought regarding the progression that I analyze as vi-IV-I-V with the deceptive resolution from V-vi at the end.. In the vi chord the 5th is normally in the melody, then the root of IV, the 3rd of I and the 5th of V, which I hear as 3-4-3-2 in terms of scale degrees. This melody is quite common for this progression. In terms of Schenker analysis, prolongationally I hear it as a Schenkerian 3-line (i.e. the Kopftone is ^3) which, after a quick visit to upper neighbor ^4 and back again, decends to ^2 and then there is a Schenkerian interruption (Unterbrechung) at ^2 and we never get to the melodic ^1 that my ear desperately wants to hear. Instead we go back up to ^3, and that is why, to me, the progression never wants to end (in addition to the deceptive cadence effect), it just wants to keep repeating over and over again. We never get the nice Schenkerian resolution of ^1 to the Urline. (And after the progression has been repeated more than a few times, it would seem very anticlimactic to suddenly get the resolution of ^1 and the I chord after all that.)

Schenker graphs don't always work so well for film scores, but for that one progression, it works nicely. If only it wasn't so overused. I don't think that progression appeared prior to the 90s?


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## mducharme (Oct 13, 2013)

ed buller @ Sun Oct 13 said:


> as to that chord progression it sounds a bit copeland to me.



This would make perfect sense of course, and I somewhat suspect this. Both bVI-bVII-I and bVII-V seem to show up in Westerns early on so Copland would be the natural fit. I can find I-bVII-I in Copland's "Rodeo" but have not found the other two. the I-bVII-I is more explicable modally since it is a natural mixolydian progression.


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## mducharme (Oct 13, 2013)

ed buller @ Sun Oct 13 said:


> i think theHollywood-esq pulls mentioned in Resphighi and Vaughn Williams are just their fondness for chromatic mediants. Especially the opening of Antartica Symphony.



Yes, chromatic mediants and modality. The bVI-bVII-I probably started off as a modal bVI-bVII-i but had a tierce di picardie added at the end of the movie (or perhaps symphony?) to make it a happy ending. The bVII-V being a bit stranger due to the chromatic movement, bVII would not be your typical predominant chord. In the romantic era you would probably only find bVII as a non functional passing chord from i to bVI on the way to V. It's still used that way in 60s pop music (ex. the verse from Good Vibrations by the Beach Boys) but you also have the Magnificent Seven bVII-V usage where it seems like bVII is used as a pre-dominant substitute for ii.


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## Farkle (Oct 13, 2013)

Casey Edwards @ Sun Oct 13 said:


> ed buller @ Sun Oct 13 said:
> 
> 
> > weird one. Sounds like the first chord IS the tonic to me too.
> ...



Hah, me, too, Casey! The minute I heard that opening in school, I said, "Hot damn, that's the Batman figure!!"

Mike


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