# Those "Zimmer" spicc patterns...



## gsilbers (Dec 27, 2010)

made famous by zimmer and the gang but not "thiers" of course.. 


but its on every movie nowadays. those very fast 16th spicc/stacc patterns doing 2 chords at the same time sometimes.. for "modality" 
i dunno how to describe it. its also a lot on TRON. 

i can come close but the sound is very peculiar and wanted to see if anyone can share thier comments about it. 

ive tried lass and symphobia but dont sound the same. seems its layered with other "stuff" 

i also noticed i ve gotten close using heavy delay >8 and wonder if this method is used. 
i load a delay on the actuall track where the stacc strings are, no feedback so it hits only once a 8th or 16th note or dotted 16th/8th. 
maybe on 2 short articulation but one doing a 8th note arppegio with a 16th note delay bounce and the other pplaying blockl chords playing 8th dotted eight note. 


but most likely is an orchestration trick that sounds easy but when u try to do it it doesnt come as close as u think. (as "I" think


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## Ed (Dec 27, 2010)

Interesting topic, do you have a specific example just so we all know what effect you're talking about? It doesn't all sound exactly the same.


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## adg21 (Dec 27, 2010)

You could try using a reverb pre-delay (to bounce back on every 16th/8th note) rather than a straight forward delay, it might just make things breathe more. I've found the Audio Damage EOS useful for this. other than that perhaps laying with synths and filtering which you've probably already tried.


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## adg21 (Dec 27, 2010)

@Folmann - ....tempo-mapped Hans Zimmer chicki-chicki-chicki-chicki-chicki-chicki with LASS style-ART with 16th note synths (with filter-knob)/16th note helicopter guitar effects/16th note stop-watch sounds etc etc combined in an all-in-one symphobia-like patch please? :shock:


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## RiffWraith (Dec 27, 2010)

Folmann @ Tue Dec 28 said:


> ....and don't forget all the delicate sound design that lies behind main mix too. There is A LOT of [email protected]#t going on - just not always so notable.



THAT is one of the biggest keys to the whole riddle. That 'LOT of [email protected]#t going on' helps not only add to the sound, but also helps cover up any slight inconsistancies in the playing.

Have you tried truncating? Helps alot here...

Cheers.


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## gsilbers (Dec 27, 2010)

Folmann @ Mon Dec 27 said:


> Its a great- and very deep topic. One would imagine that this should be the easiest thing to mock-up, since it doesn't require legato and so forth. But the reality is that there is "interconnection" between the notes - partially related to bow and partially related to string/chamber resonance.
> 
> In other words ... most of the great things you hear were recorded live with LSO - Tron, Dark Knight being two great recent examples.
> 
> ...




do i foresee a EPIC STACC release???  


i didnt think of synth patterns in the back. ill give it a try.


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## BadOrange (Dec 27, 2010)

you can edit the ADSR for any kontakt patch. It is quite easy to get those results. Also layer the first chair with the ensemble, route to a send saturation plugin. YOu really have to start thinking of an orchestra as a synth if you want a great sound with these tools as no one sample library in my mind cuts it without some serious modifications.


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## gsilbers (Dec 27, 2010)

Ed @ Mon Dec 27 said:


> Interesting topic, do you have a specific example just so we all know what effect you're talking about? It doesn't all sound exactly the same.



its on almost all tracks in tron that are fast paced. 

flynn lives, 
CLU
disc wars.

in inception:

one simple idea

the bourne stuff has somewhat but its more dry there. 


its also on some transformers tracks

bumblebee
all the spark


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 27, 2010)

Just listening to the intro to Flynn lives (thank you Spotify) - isn't that just a long sustained root cellos note behind the spicc pattern?


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## gsilbers (Dec 28, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Tue Dec 28 said:


> Just listening to the intro to Flynn lives (thank you Spotify) - isn't that just a long sustained root cellos note behind the spicc pattern?



yep. its under simple melodies, percussion patterns and even spicc melodies. 
its the vibe of those stacc patterns , the sound. its not as simple as it seems to get that vibe going. 
or if it is lemme know. cause lass art is not cutting it. :(


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 28, 2010)

Well now. I don't know if the intro to Flynn Lives is what everyone is always talking about, but I just had a little crack at that short simple intro -

http://www.box.net/shared/r1d2bho60l

This is LASS Lite spiccs (not A.R.T though for this line of course), a bit of EQ, a tiny amount of Symphobia Spiccs underneath, and the basic full LASS ensemble sustain underneath for the drone notes. It's not identical, but I think it's pretty close... IMO I don't think there's any clever trickery in the original of this particular cue at all, it's just the sound of the real string players which of course have a greater degree of subtlety in the low velocity articulations than LASS Lite. Using the 4 LASS divisi sections, all round robin, might sound quite a bit better actually, would be interested to compare if someone has a few minutes spare.


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## adg21 (Dec 28, 2010)

I'm not convinced LASS is necessarily the right tool for the job, especially at this range. Can anyone can suggest ways of making LASS sound smoother and less chamber? Or maybe a different spic library? maybe removing any velocity fluctuations (perhaps trying a compressor), different EQ and using the 4 LASS divisi sections could help.

What I enjoy most about soundtracks like this is the pure ear-candy production, and if that's not 100% there then all you're left with is a pretty hollow composition imo.


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## midphase (Dec 28, 2010)

You could layer the LASS Spicc and Stacc groups so that you're effectively doubling the size of the group.

Also, you could layer Cinematic String's Monster Staccatos as well to add additional glue:

http://www.cinematicstrings.com/index.p ... Itemid=123


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## gsilbers (Dec 28, 2010)

i think its also the arrangement. 

seems to me that whoever started the trend started with delays on a stacc string patch and then told the orchestrator to figure it out for live playing.
thus there seems to be divisi doing a 2 note melody pattern in straight 8th notes, another divisi doing 16th note arpeggios while hitting the 8th note pattern notes and at the same time another section doing the ghost notes on the main chords. 

for me it seems this trick was borrowed from trance music where u have this complex "trance-gated" patches that usually where overdone using the virus and jp8080 synths, 
but thats my thoery


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 28, 2010)

gsilbers @ Tue Dec 28 said:


> i think its also the arrangement.
> 
> seems to me that whoever started the trend started with delays on a stacc string patch and then told the orchestrator to figure it out for live playing.
> thus there seems to be divisi doing a 2 note melody pattern in straight 8th notes, another divisi doing 16th note arpeggios while hitting the 8th note pattern notes and at the same time another section doing the ghost notes on the main chords.
> ...



You SURE you're not overcomplicating this?! Just sounds like nicely played 16ths to me...


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## IvanP (Dec 28, 2010)

+1


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## gsilbers (Dec 28, 2010)

maybe...

or maybe its just how i explained it. 


do u have something that sounds like it and can give me info on how u made it. would be cool.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 28, 2010)

gsilbers @ Wed Dec 29 said:


> do u have something that sounds like it and can give me info on how u made it. would be cool.



Well I did that baby mockup above, and that was just LASS Lite violin and cello spiccs, blended with a tiny amount of Symphobia spiccs (incidentally, the LASS were far far closer in terms of timbre to the Tron ones IMHO, I actually rolled off the top a little). Added the drones, ER and tails. As I said before, I think full LASS would push it on a little more in terms of realism, should more or less eliminate any round robin effect. Couldn't tell til I'd heard it, but it's not inconceivable to me that the original IS full LASS.


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## twinsinmind (Dec 29, 2010)

A good way to study it is when you listen to Steve Jablonsky

a formal student of hans zimmer, he uses the same tricks alot
but when you hear his soundtrack of The Island
its clear that synths arpeggio with Delay makes the sound underneath the
strings.

just maybe an idea to break it down via The Island soundtrack


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## IvanP (Dec 29, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Wed Dec 29 said:


> Well I did that baby mockup above, and that was just LASS Lite violin and cello spiccs,



Cool...I tried it too last night and used Violins,Violas and Celli. 

I tried to play it as I would have done it with an orchestra, but I don't know if my orchestration is the genuine one...

Chord is Abm

Vis (1 or 2...with that orchestra, any of them are good enough), play the initial ostinato. Since violins are agile enough, they should be able to play that pattern. My only doubt would be if, in real world, the step Ab-Db might sound not tight enough, thus dividing the pattern between Vis 1 and Vis 2. I can only hear one section in the cd, but I may be wrong. 

Celli: these are less agile. I would divide them in div a 2: Some playing spic Eb and the others Ab (in order to have more harmonics on that note, thus adding more "spice" in the texture). 

Vas (or Vis 2): starting at Cb, the 2nd pattern (Cb- Ab, Bb- Ab, Bb- Ab, Cb-Ab)

That's how I would I've done it...but maybe I'm wrong and I would have been fired as an arranger 

Note: Btw, the Youtube video plays in Am


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## KMuzzey (Dec 31, 2010)

The movie "Angels & Demons", if you bought the Blu-Ray, came with this freebie from Steinberg that was called "The Hans Zimmer Music Studio" - it was a program you installed that allowed you to pull apart some cues from A&D.

Oooh, found it: http://www.steinberg.net/en/newsandevents/news/newsdetail/article/hans-zimmer-music-studio-in-angels-demons-blu-ray-and-2-disc-dvd-release-903.html (http://www.steinberg.net/en/newsandeven ... e-903.html)

It used that main theme from A&D as an example (it's the Chevaliers de Sangreal theme from DaVinci Code), and allowed you to isolate the layers of that cue: mute the violin or solo the violin, mute or solo the ensemble strings, and then there was a synth layer... so I solo'd the synth layer and was completely surprised: there's this entire layer of fast-moving bass & sub-bass synth sounds all over the place that you don't actually hear in the final piece, but that adds a feeling of motion and chug-a-chug to those spicc strings. And when you remove the mute & hear it as part of the final cue, you don't really HEAR it, you just sorta feel it. When you re-mute it, you feel its absence but you don't hear its absence.

So to add a +1 to what Troels said, yeah - there's a LOT going on in there!

Kerry


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## johan25 (Dec 31, 2010)

Tanuj that's pretty awesome


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## gsilbers (Dec 31, 2010)

KMuzzey @ Fri Dec 31 said:


> The movie "Angels & Demons", if you bought the Blu-Ray, came with this freebie from Steinberg that was called "The Hans Zimmer Music Studio" - it was a program you installed that allowed you to pull apart some cues from A&D.
> 
> Oooh, found it: http://www.steinberg.net/en/newsandevents/news/newsdetail/article/hans-zimmer-music-studio-in-angels-demons-blu-ray-and-2-disc-dvd-release-903.html (http://www.steinberg.net/en/newsandeven ... e-903.html)
> 
> ...



very interesting. 

and what is the synth layer doing? (not the bass y mentioned)


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## KMuzzey (Dec 31, 2010)

The bass & synth layer might've been the same... can't remember, it's been about a year since I tried it out. I ebay'd it so I don't have the DVDs anymore. But when you isolated the synth stuff, it was such gobbledygook that it didn't make any sense at all: to listen to it on its own, you'd think a 3-year old was just hitting keys on the keyboard. It was fast-moving stuff, all over the place. But add that layer back into the piece (I imagine it's several diff stems combined) and you instantly have that extra layer of Zimmerness. Without the synths the strings still produced a great chug-a-chug pattern of motion, but that just comes from the orchestration and the dynasmism of the bows. But the synth layer definitely took it to the next level. Wish I knew the exact trick...

Kerry


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## gsilbers (Dec 31, 2010)

oh, so it was not midi tracks just multitrack audio? 

still nice and interesting.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 31, 2010)

I took a tiny shot at this as well about a year ago, using EWQLSO Platinum only and no synth: http://www.ljnmusicandsound.com/2009/actionadventurescary/ (http://www.ljnmusicandsound.com/2009/ac ... turescary/).

Sold it to a library. It really isn't special, (especially harmonically!) but I think we've all taken a shot at getting there with that spiccato thing, yes? Seems to be LASS and Omni would be ideal...


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 1, 2011)

I suspect what is going on here is that the broad theme of "those Zimmer spicc patterns" covers a whole multitude of different things in different places. Try as I might, I can hear nothing in Flynn Lives that is anything other than simple 16ths with supporting sustains, and not a hint of a synth (and this, we should remind ourselves, isn't Zimmer at all). Of course, there could be magic inaudible synths, but by nature I'm a little cynical of such claims... anything you can't hear gets pretty elusive, funnily enough. It's all a bit like the audophile's constant muisc-destroying quest to hear perfection by welding cables to PCBs and claiming they can hear a difference... when you're in these realms, I tend to figure the point often gets rather lost.

All THAT said, it'd be interesting to hear that Blu Ray demo. I've no doubt that there isn't some tricksy stuff going on in some places and some cases. It just feels a little like a foolish quest though... I'm wildly extrapolating here, but one can see how the quest to discover a magical mystical ingredient to a particular sound could end up stopping you getting on with composition (and again this applies absolutely to myself at times).

On the other hand Tanuj's track DOES sound synthy. And it works - sounds great, I'm sure there are Zimmer moments that are similar. But it's a very different sound from the Flynn Lives intro IMHO. My feeling is that it's horses for courses.


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## johan25 (Jan 1, 2011)

Perhaps Tanuj can do a little video tutorial on how he created his short spicc patterns, I believe everything is done in VSL, right Tanuj?


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## RiffWraith (Jan 1, 2011)

So, I figured I'd throw one into the fray:

http://www.jeffreyhayat.com/ZimSpicforVI.mp3

Made with Symphobia and EWQL Stacs, some synth pads, high and low legato strings, a "ticki" loop and some taikos.

Any thoughts, let's have 'em! :D


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## Mr Greg G (Jan 1, 2011)

Nice one, I think you and vibrato nailed this pattern.

How many tracks did you use?

Are the first Staccatos (or Spiccatos) from Symphobia or EWQLSO?


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## johan25 (Jan 1, 2011)

RiffWraith well done


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## OB.one (Jan 1, 2011)

Hello Everyboby and Happy New Year !

I've tried also a little something.

There :

http://www.box.net/shared/jnoi68yra0

Best Regards from Paris

Olivier aka OB.one
http://www.myspace.com/obonemusic


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## Mr Greg G (Jan 1, 2011)

This is nice, Olivier! You gotta tell us more like the libs and patch you used, how you layered your strings


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## RiffWraith (Jan 1, 2011)

Mr Pringles @ Sun Jan 02 said:


> How many tracks did you use?
> 
> Are the first Staccatos (or Spiccatos) from Symphobia or EWQLSO?



Strings (spic/stac) tracks were three total. The first stacs are mostly Symph, with a touch of EWQLSO mixed in.


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## DKeenum (Jan 1, 2011)

RiffWraith, really nice!

Oliver, good job on the complimentary patterns! That really reminds me of Flynn Lives.


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## RiffWraith (Jan 1, 2011)

OB.one @ Sun Jan 02 said:


> Hello Everyboby and Happy New Year !
> 
> I've tried also a little something.
> 
> ...



This sounds pretty darn good. Now, my ears are really sensitive to stuff like this, and I know this is only an exercise, but here goes. And just take this with a grain of salt!  

The problem I have with this rendition is after a while, the D# F G repeat so much, it's tiring to the ears. Without knowing what you used (is that LASS?) it's hard to make a suggestion, but off the bat, i would say use a different vel layer, and/or try mixing in a few different samples a half-step lower or higher, and then pitching that note or notes. Depending on the lib and the programming, this may not be an option, but if is, that will take away some of that "I keep hearing that! >8o " -ness....:lol:

Cheers.


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## OB.one (Jan 1, 2011)

Hi RiffWraith and thanx for your feedback  and thanx to DKeenum and Mr Pringles

100% agree on your suggestions.

To be honest : i've only spent 40 minutes on it and there is no layer at all ! (only one library) ... and it's late here in Paris ! ...

I will try to make the best version i can tomorrow using layers, and more velocity variations ...

Will post a new one.

Best Regards

Olivier


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## David Story (Jan 1, 2011)

Here's a humble effort at that sense of speed using 4 tracks.

http://soundcloud.com/cinematic1/darkfast


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## snowleopard (Jan 1, 2011)

Maybe I'm just old, but John Williams made use of this when Mr. Zimmer was still doodling on keyboards with the Buggles. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLKGcJziZOA


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## madbulk (Jan 1, 2011)

This is Troels' Tomb Raider Underworld Theme from '08.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIf7v_KBrR4

This is what I usually go back and listen to with regard to the the zimmer chugga chugga.


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## snowleopard (Jan 1, 2011)

You mean the Williams chugga chugga?


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## RiffWraith (Jan 1, 2011)

snowleopard @ Sun Jan 02 said:


> Maybe I'm just old, but John Williams made use of this when Mr. Zimmer was still doodling on keyboards with the Buggles.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLKGcJziZOA



Eh, we sure that's JW? I am not. You know what that sounds like to me? Another composer scoring one of the SW vid games, trying to get the Zimmer spics and JW trumpets mixed in together. In fact, the more I listen, the more I am convinced that is _not_ JW. 

Cheers.


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## Sforzando (Jan 1, 2011)

RiffWraith @ Sat Jan 01 said:


> snowleopard @ Sun Jan 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe I'm just old, but John Williams made use of this when Mr. Zimmer was still doodling on keyboards with the Buggles.
> ...


Yes, that is indeed Williams.
I have the soundtrack for the Empire Strikes Back and that is the penultimate track of the 2nd disc, and it is indeed called "Hyperspace". However the uploader of that video seems to have edited it.

Here is the full track, with "Rescue from Cloud City" preceding it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwThUJR7GP0
It starts at 5:06.

Here are some more that I can remember off the top of my head:

Ludlow's Demise
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_LSGDKauPE
At 2:42

Visitor in San Diego
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dT6uVAHOZY
2:16

Anakin vs. Obi-Wan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewR5vtwNUCk

Scherzo for Motorcycle and Orchestra
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQIjCI6Eji0

Williams is one of the few people that can write a pedal point without making it sound boring or cliched, at least in my opinion.


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## Pzy-Clone (Jan 1, 2011)

Well since everybody is into this sort of thing, i thought i would give it a try as well 

I usualy dont write this kinda stuff, but i can see why people do it tho...its fun ,and it took literaly one hour to do .

Anyway...my attempt at those infamous spiccs:
http://www.box.net/shared/24u2z4ytrm

Totaly generic...but who cares.

Edit:
Oh and the strings are VSL+String Essentials 2.


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## RiffWraith (Jan 1, 2011)

Sforzando @ Sun Jan 02 said:


> Yes, that is indeed Williams.
> I have the soundtrack for the Empire Strikes Back and that is the penultimate track of the 2nd disc, and it is indeed called "Hyperspace".



Ok, well then, I stand corrected. :roll: > me.

LOL


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 2, 2011)

RiffWraith - definitely sounds like Zimmer to me! The synth bass arpeggios help sell that feel (at the risk of being a seriously stuck record, this is a different sound to the non-Zimmer Flynn Lives though).

OB One - Yeah, that's nice and Flynn Livesish, agree re velocity comments. The brick wall I hit using LASS Lite was I needed something like 39x round robin all at lowest velocity to be really convincing!

David - really perfect feel to this at the beginning, but I think it did sound a little too confusing as it goes forward (I guess intentional though). Maybe the synth bass isn't quite right either?

John Williams - what the hell does he know?! The moment I hear anything from this era (Star Wars IV even more so) it sounds soo dry compared to anything more recent. But yup, there's the same effect, more prominent in timbre.

Troels - totally class act, of course. Who else wants Troels to back the hell off Tonehammer for a few months and score a HUGE movie?!

Pzy - yup, sounds right to me...

I think (again apologies for the stuck record) there is way way way more than one catch-all "this is how to do Zimmer spics" solution.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jan 2, 2011)

Hey Guys,

Really cool to see so many versions here! All of them sound great and I guess, there isnt really one way to do it - of course Zimmers vision will be the original always.

Here is my final attempt - just added a few more layers with a sub bass - dint have time for the previous version. 

Also added the two note brass - just for a complete feeling!!!

Check it out:


http://www.tanuj-tiku.com/HZDarkKnightII.wav (www.tanuj-tiku.com/HZDarkKnightII.wav)


If anyone is interested to know about the layers etc, let me know!


Best,

Tanuj.


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## Lunatique (Jan 2, 2011)

KMuzzey @ Fri Dec 31 said:


> Tso I solo'd the synth layer and was completely surprised: there's this entire layer of fast-moving bass & sub-bass synth sounds all over the place that you don't actually hear in the final piece, but that adds a feeling of motion and chug-a-chug to those spicc strings. And when you remove the mute & hear it as part of the final cue, you don't really HEAR it, you just sorta feel it. When you re-mute it, you feel its absence but you don't hear its absence.



I do this all the time--doubling the orchestral instruments with synths to add body, grit, clarity...etc. This is the great thing about having synth programming/sound design as part of your creative arsenal, since synths are highly tweakable and you can make it do pretty much anything, even emulate orchestral sounds. It's similar to how some composers like to layer sample patches, except with synths, you can get even more specific about exactly what to emphasize. The latest track I just posted in the review section, that cello spiccato riff has some serious gritty synth doubling going on, and that's how it can sound so aggressive and cutting. You can't tell it's a synth but if I mute it, the cellos will sound very different.


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## johan25 (Jan 2, 2011)

Here is the REAL deal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8aTnN1I ... re=related


:lol:


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## Hannes_F (Jan 2, 2011)

madbulk @ Sun Jan 02 said:


> This is Troels' Tomb Raider Underworld Theme from '08.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIf7v_KBrR4



Very good.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 2, 2011)

This example may be interesting for some of you: Anton Bruckner, 3rd symphony (1873), 1st movement. You find many of those elements that are topical today for this type of cue:

- Moderate tempo
- Pedal point in the basses, structured in a walking tempo
- Repeated eighth notes (downbow-upbow) in the violins, broken into chords and lines that counterpoint with the melody
- 16th notes in the violas (the 'nearly unperceiveable ghost notes')
- Establishing the patterns by and by
- A long arc noble melody in brass over it beginnning in bar 5

Also remarkeable is that it combines short tickling structures (viola) with a slow pulse evolving feel (notated as alla breve which means only two conducted beats per bar).












(Trumpet is notated in D, and I had to cut away some parts of the score)

If you listen to a classical recording of today these spiccs are often played rather mildly and even sometimes with tempo fluctuations but I am sure Bruckner heard them just as crisp and mesmerising in his head as soundtracks of our time are.

For those of you that are interested in our musical heritage it may be interesting to read how much Bruckner had to suffer and struggle with his Wagner dedicated music in his lifetime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_N ... ruckner%29

For all others it may at least be interesting to know that Wagner, Mahler and Bruckner were the late romantic masters that had been studied in detail by Korngold, Steiner, and from there goes the connection to Williams of course and to Shore, Elfman etc. Even if some younger film composers of today might barely know the names of the old masters not even to speak of their works they are 'standing on the shoulders of giants'.


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## handz (Jan 2, 2011)

Someone does not know Empire Strikes Back here... ts ts ts


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## OB.one (Jan 2, 2011)

Hello Everybody,

Spent 4 hours to really make it.

Layers : HS + Lass, Universal Audio Studer A800 on every tracks, VSL Convolution for ER, Aether Tail, Noise, Air, Pultec Pro and Fairchild on mixbus ...

It's there :

http://www.box.net/shared/a57zit3bmi

Now it should sounds much better :wink: 

Best Regards from Paris

Olivier aka OB.one


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## Daniel James (Jan 2, 2011)

Haha I like this type of discussion where we all get to take a stab at it :D 

Here is my attempt.

http://soundcloud.com/hybridtwo/zimmer- ... trol-forum

Dan


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## johan25 (Jan 2, 2011)

Daniel nice job bro, I liked the end part with the female choirs.

How long did it take you to finish this?


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## Daniel James (Jan 2, 2011)

johan25 @ Sun Jan 02 said:


> Daniel nice job bro, I liked the end part with the female choirs.
> 
> How long did it take you to finish this?



Cheers johan, took me about an hour and a half from start to finish. 

Dan


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## RiffWraith (Jan 2, 2011)

OB.one @ Sun Jan 02 said:


> Hello Everybody,
> 
> Spent 4 hours to really make it.
> 
> ...



This sounds good, but honestly, the 1st one sounded better. The problem here is I can not only hear, but I can also visualize the fader moves. I see what you were trying to do, but that's too drastic - it sounds phony. Otherwise, it is very good.

Cheers.


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## RiffWraith (Jan 2, 2011)

Daniel James @ Sun Jan 02 said:


> Haha I like this type of discussion where we all get to take a stab at it :D
> 
> Here is my attempt.
> 
> ...



This is the best one in this thread - good job! What was used?

Cheers.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 2, 2011)

Daniel James @ Sun Jan 02 said:


> Haha I like this type of discussion where we all get to take a stab at it :D
> 
> Here is my attempt.
> 
> ...



Totally Zimmer! That ebbing and flowing thing... is that just what he does in Inception, or does he use it in his other recent scores? I'm not as familiar with TDK etc. +1 to knowing what you used...

I just posted a trailer piece in Member's Composition, has a coupla spicc variations in it (must be in my head at the moment!):

http://www.box.net/shared/mmej9puxei


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## Daniel James (Jan 2, 2011)

RiffWraith @ Sun Jan 02 said:


> Daniel James @ Sun Jan 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Haha I like this type of discussion where we all get to take a stab at it :D
> ...



I used mainly LASS but with a bit of Symphobia underneath for the air. There is one synth pad in there playing 16ths but with quite a bit of filter cutoff automation. Also there is some brass doing stacs in there too which may be hard to spot but they help enforce the rhythm.

In my opinion more library developers should record really low dynamics, most only go down to p....I want some ppp then you really get some air :D

Dan


----------



## OB.one (Jan 2, 2011)

Thanx RiffWraith for having listened :wink: 

Daniel : Congratulation, really good and i 100 % agree with you when you say :

"In my opinion more library developers should record really low dynamics, most only go down to p....I want some ppp then you really get some air"

I've been struggling with this lack of velocities and focused mainly on avoiding the machine gun effect playing different pitches then retune into Melodyne ...

Whow knows : Samplemodeling could release some strings soon ? ... :wink: 

I would be the first to jump on it, so many samples and hard drives with these huge libraries and fight for ppp ! ...

Best

Olivier


----------



## gsilbers (Jan 2, 2011)

Deleted: too many of my posts :oops:


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## gsilbers (Jan 2, 2011)

id like to point out, and tell me if u think the same, 
that this type of spicc pattern (or chuga chuga is used more in the film than the score thats sold separatly (CD-itunes) and its used a lot for underscore of mundane dialog or its part of the a track but gets cutoff cause it goes on for a while. 
in inception for example, i remember that the movie was wall to wall music. it was a crazy amount of music. and it had a lot of this type of chugging... like the one daniel james made but without the percussion or accents. just very low dynamics that blended with the background sfx ambiences. 
ill have to see it again though. but that was my impression of inception, transformers and x men. (all by remote control ties)


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## gsilbers (Jan 2, 2011)

Daniel James @ Sun Jan 02 said:


> RiffWraith @ Sun Jan 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Daniel James @ Sun Jan 02 said:
> ...





id like to read more about the session if posible. what are LASS doing and the synth, plus i didnt hear brass. 
thx


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## Daniel James (Jan 2, 2011)

A few things:

I used smaller divisi on the Violins and on the Cello, I had the Viola playing a single note in a different rhythm to the rest of the strings

I had all the strings playing in lower velocities then turned up the actual volume of them to balance that out. 

I have some legato strings playing behind the spics but turned down so that they feel more like air than notes.

I have some subtle sticks playing 16ths but tuned down so that they sound like part of the strings.

Dan


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## Ian Dorsch (Jan 2, 2011)

RiffWraith @ Sat Jan 01 said:


> Eh, we sure that's JW? I am not. You know what that sounds like to me? Another composer scoring one of the SW vid games, trying to get the Zimmer spics and JW trumpets mixed in together. In fact, the more I listen, the more I am convinced that is _not_ JW.



It might be the weird editing or the crappy compression helping to give you that impression, but I fondly remember this track from my family's vinyl copy of the Empire Strikes Back OST from back when I was about 7 or 8 years old. It's definitely Williams, and definitely pre-Star Wars video games, unless those games were released on the Atari 2600.


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## gsilbers (Jan 2, 2011)

Daniel James @ Sun Jan 02 said:


> A few things:
> 
> I used smaller divisi on the Violins and on the Cello, I had the Viola playing a single note in a different rhythm to the rest of the strings
> 
> ...



thx!


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## Ed (Jan 4, 2011)

Dan that's basically perfect! :D

I really did think the whole question of it being a live issue was wrong.


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## adg21 (Jan 4, 2011)

gsilbers @ Sun Jan 02 said:


> id like to read more about the session if posible. what are LASS doing and the synth, plus i didnt hear brass.
> thx



so would I :shock:


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## Blackster (Jan 4, 2011)

Thanks Dan for putting this video up. Great sound and a very detailed explanation. Thumps up !! =o


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## Bfuhrmann (Jan 4, 2011)

Dan-

First of all, let me just say, like everyone else has, that it sounds great! 

And, thanks very much for the video. As a relative newcomer to both VI-Control and the mockup world in general, if definitely helped a lot.

Cheers-

Bryant


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## Ed (Jan 4, 2011)

Cool Dan! Thanks for doing that! If you made lots of videos like that frequently Im sure you'll have a large subscriber base eventually. Very cool tips I will steal from that I didn't think of. Helps a lot to see how other people work.

I do wonder what the formal orchestral types think of such writing? Not trying to be combative, just wondering if they think its all totally crazy and you'd never do it like that at all. Ignoring the synths, just the orchestral section since it still sounds "correct" without that. Honestly, serious question.


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## Daniel James (Jan 4, 2011)

Ed @ Tue Jan 04 said:


> Cool Dan! Thanks for doing that! If you made lots of videos like that frequently Im sure you'll have a large subscriber base eventually. Very cool tips I will steal from that that I didn't think of. Helps a lot to see how other people work.
> 
> I do wonder what the formal orchestral types think of such writing? Not trying to be combative, just wondering if they think its all totally crazy and you'd never do it like that at all. Ignoring the synths, just the orchestral section. Honestly, serious question.



Ed, to be totally honest they can think whatever they like. At the end of the day I will write the way I write and they can write the way they do. There is no right or wrong way to go about writing music :D

Dan


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## NYC Composer (Jan 4, 2011)

Daniel James @ Tue Jan 04 said:


> Here you go guys...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o610Eax4upg
> 
> ...



Outstanding tutorial. Thank you for your time and your generosity.


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## Ed (Jan 4, 2011)

Daniel James @ Tue Jan 04 said:


> Ed, to be totally honest they can think whatever they like. At the end of the day I will write the way I write and they can write the way they do. There is no right or wrong way to go about writing music :D



Me too, I was thinking the whole way through I wonder how many other ways there is to go about this.

My question relates to my personal insecurity about not being musical trained and how orchestrator's see my music. When I write something, I'm always wondering if thats really how it should be done. Sure you can say that as long as it sounds good it is, but sometimes its better to have violas not play high or its best not to have strings do this that and whatever. Sorry to want to use your track as a case study :D but since its practically identical to the sound Zimmer has which was your intention we can see what notes you used and what notes he could have used, so an orchestrator can look at it and say if its decent or mind boggling to them. I just want to know which it is. Dunno if that ramble made any sense to you.


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## Daniel James (Jan 4, 2011)

Ed @ Tue Jan 04 said:


> Daniel James @ Tue Jan 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed, to be totally honest they can think whatever they like. At the end of the day I will write the way I write and they can write the way they do. There is no right or wrong way to go about writing music :D
> ...



I'm guessing that things like that would only matter if you were writing for a real orchestra, in which case you would write a little differently....HOWEVER remember that once the orchestra is recorded you have audio files which can still be manipulated, mashed up, mixed and layered to your hearts content. 

Sure you may want to keep your orchestral recordings clean and untouched, but speaking personally I would treat it as any other sound in my DAW..if its missing something I add it, if there is too much I take it away. So long as the end product achieves the goal of the track and is good to listen to there is nothing to worry about (unless of course you REALLY care about the opinion of others who think you should do it their way)

Dan


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## snowleopard (Jan 4, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Sun Jan 02 said:


> John Williams - what the hell does he know?!


LOL. Five Oscars, 31 nominations - six in the last decade. Not bad for someone old and "dry"!


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## NYC Composer (Jan 4, 2011)

Ed @ Tue Jan 04 said:


> Daniel James @ Tue Jan 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed, to be totally honest they can think whatever they like. At the end of the day I will write the way I write and they can write the way they do. There is no right or wrong way to go about writing music :D
> ...



Do I understand that you're worried about the more erudite musical opinion of someone you're hiring (the orchestrator)? If your hired orchestrator is derisive, I suggest you find another orchestrator.


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## johan25 (Jan 4, 2011)

Thanks for the tutorial Daniel, very cool of you


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## adg21 (Jan 4, 2011)

Daniel James @ Tue Jan 04 said:


> Here you go guys...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o610Eax4upg
> 
> ...


So accurate I think HZ would not like how close you are. Great job!


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## Polarity (Jan 4, 2011)

Fantastic demo and video tutorial Daniel!
Thanks a thousand.
Very cool tricks to obtain the final result. 
I would have never thought of using the cellos tremolo patch in that way.



> to be totally honest they can think whatever they like. At the end of the day I will write the way I write and they can write the way they do. There is no right or wrong way to go about writing music


I totally agree with this!



> just figured there were more Zimmer haters on this forum.


I've always been one of the lovers of Zimmer music... 
in effect I'm a bit surprised me too... always seen people firing against him.

:D


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## stonzthro (Jan 4, 2011)

Thanks Daniel - always nice to see how other people are doing things!


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## renegade (Jan 4, 2011)

Thanks Daniel for sharing - great tips!


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## Ed (Jan 4, 2011)

My god Dan, what have you created :D


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## renegade (Jan 4, 2011)

Ed @ Wed 05 Jan said:


> My god Dan, what have you created :D


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## Ed (Jan 4, 2011)

Okay so now that's solved lets see what else we can figure ò 


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## David Story (Jan 4, 2011)

Thank you.

Clear, beautiful, epic. Dan, you've achieved a phenominal orchestration. IMO, this could work as written with a live orchestra, plus a bit of prelay.
The video is entertaining- not every technical demo is clear and fun to watch.






Next- how about that How to Train Your Dragon track?


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## Stephan Lindsjo (Jan 4, 2011)

Thanks a lot Dan!
Imo, this is the best tutorial I've ever seen.
Awasome.
Thanks again.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 4, 2011)

Yeah, fantastic tutorial, great work. Was that Zimmer on the phone trying to get through to stop you giving away his tricks?!

Snow - you DO know I was joking, right?!!! FWIW the point behind the dry comment is exactly right. Williams was using the same orchestration really, though in the posted example it was played far louder so had quite a different effect (and as Hannes pointed out, he was hardly the first either).  Zimmer has popularised a particular sound that goes with it. In general terms, pretty much any soundtrack from the last 10-15 years is far wetter than the Star Wars stuff. Like I say, have a listen to the Star Wars IV soundtrack, it's really startling just how dry it is... refreshing actually, just shows that there's more than one way to go that really works.


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## snowleopard (Jan 5, 2011)

Thanks Dan for the great tutorial. I don't often make music like this, but a great example of how to make _John Williams_ spic patterns. 

:wink: 

I know Guy. Just poking a little fun. I generally agree with you. Just wanted to point something out others - especially those under the age of about 30, may not know. Cheers.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 5, 2011)

OK, Snow! No worries!


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## andreasOL (Jan 5, 2011)

@Daniel

Absolutely stunning tutorial and a great approach with all the subtleties.

Have you considered posting a link to it at the audiobro forum? It shows as an imo important detail the beauty and versatility of LASS divisi.

best,
Andreas


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## Winslow (Jan 5, 2011)

Hi Dan,

okay, this is my first post. I've been reading this forum for a while - but now I can't hold back anymore:

Great tutorial - thanks a lot!

Cheers,

Winslow


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## stargazer (Jan 5, 2011)

Great tutorial, Dan - thanks!

I listened to Flynn Lives (that was mentioned in the beginning of this thread) on Spotify, and wanted to see how my Vienna Strings would compare in a short draft.
I kept it simple - mainly Appassionata Strings with some Solo and Chamber Strings layered.

http://soundcloud.com/swedishstargazer/flynnlivesmockup

This cue is very revealing, and it would be interesting to hear some other libraries "naked" playing this arrangement.
Anybody with LASS or HS?

Thanks,
Hakan


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## Mr Greg G (Jan 5, 2011)

This thread created a wave of newcomers haha! 
Thanks Dan for this vid, this is far more instructing than listening to clips without detailed explanations!!


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## Ed (Jan 5, 2011)

stargazer @ Wed Jan 05 said:


> Great tutorial, Dan - thanks!
> 
> I listened to Flynn Lives (that was mentioned in the beginning of this thread) on Spotify, and wanted to see how my Vienna Strings would compare in a short draft.
> I kept it simple - mainly Appassionata Strings with some Solo and Chamber Strings layered.
> ...



Sounds great!

To me this shows that "live" is not at all giving the effect people like and apparently not that difficult to achieve despite what the first page of this thread might seem. Im not sure why Troels of all people would say this.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 5, 2011)

Well to be fair, in Daniel's exemplary mockup there IS a lot going on - split divisis, trems, stick percussion and synths, whereas on a casual listen it just sounds like spiccs. So Troels (of course) was quite right in my view. Full marks to Daniel for de-constructing as he did. I stand by my view that not all modern spicc uses (such as Flynn Lives) need be this complex, especially with regard to synth elements, just depends on the vibe.


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## Leandro Gardini (Jan 5, 2011)

snowleopard @ Sat Jan 01 said:


> Maybe I'm just old, but John Williams made use of this when Mr. Zimmer was still doodling on keyboards with the Buggles.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLKGcJziZOA


Maybe I´m even much older than you but this guy made use of this technique more than two hundred years ago from JW and HZ:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZD9nt_wsY0

Among the three ones the Zimmer of course is the most complex texture, but the basic idea of giving pulsation to the strings is much older and film music!!!


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## Ed (Jan 5, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Wed Jan 05 said:


> Well to be fair, in Daniel's exemplary mockup there IS a lot going on - split divisis, trems, stick percussion and synths, whereas on a casual listen it just sounds like spiccs. So Troels (of course) was quite right in my view. Full marks to Daniel for de-constructing as he did.



What Troels said was... "_One would imagine that this should be the easiest thing to mock-up, since it doesn't require legato and so forth. *But the reality is* that there is "interconnection" between the notes...most of the great things you hear *were recorded live *with LSO - Tron, Dark Knight"... _ and ... "_don't forget all the delicate sound design that lies behind main mix too"_

What I get from this is that what people like about this sound is the LIVE "interconnection between notes" and the complex sound design behind the mix especially as some others started talking about delays and Zimmer's DVD isolated special feature, KMussey said "_there's this entire layer of fast-moving bass & sub-bass synth sounds all over the place"_

But just on its own Dan's orchestral stuff did just what the OP was asking for and the sound design wasn't THAT complex. The Divisi splits aren't that difficult either, it just involves using those particular patches and having different lines. It just seems to me its nowhere near as complicated as some people were making out.



> I stand by my view that not all modern spicc uses (such as Flynn Lives) need be this complex, especially with regard to synth elements, just depends on the vibe.



Oh I agree with that


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## tumeninote (Jan 5, 2011)

Daniel James, very impressive work and graciously sharing your knowledge. Thank you for others that provided examples as well.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 5, 2011)

I think you can both be right! No doubt those big scores were recorded with orchestras (which means extra kudos to Daniel for emulating them so well). Daniel has the trems trick to sort of simulate a 32nd effect. But is that the only way?

I've no doubt that Daniel's magic formula isn't the way it was originally achieved, and indeed there are probably as many different formulas as there are pieces (surely some involving fast synth sub bass). But it certainly works.


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## michel (Jan 5, 2011)

Thank you for the video, Daniel.

Here is my attempt on another (slower) Zimmer pattern - from Batman Begins. Just playing with LASS and some notes. :D 

Eptesicus on Soundcloud


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## madbulk (Jan 5, 2011)

leogardini @ Wed Jan 05 said:


> snowleopard @ Sat Jan 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe I'm just old, but John Williams made use of this when Mr. Zimmer was still doodling on keyboards with the Buggles.
> ...



Maybe I'm just a lot younger than you guys but are you trying to tell me Zimmer didn't invent 16th notes?


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## madbulk (Jan 5, 2011)

You're gonna move copies of LASS, Daniel. A lot of people want this sound and LASS in my mind is what's giving it to you. Through your thoughtful and clever use of it, of course. I wonder what HS would do in the same role. I think others are too.

One thought as I'm listening to your spawn, all of which sound pretty good (As Ed said, "what have you done, Dan?") The raising and lowering of the modwheel can sound really mechanical in a hurry. You're already at these really low velocities. Gotta have all these tricks, ala Daniel, to preserve the impression that players are dropping out as they fade down and reentering as they fade up.


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## lahdeedah (Jan 5, 2011)

o-[][]-o Cheers, and thank you for your generosity. I loved the video, loved getting a peek at all the nuance and subtle tricks that make up the ear candy!


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## José Herring (Jan 5, 2011)

I think you guys are getting it. All examples sound pretty decent to me.

If I get time I'll post something that I did that's similar. See what you think.

Jose


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## Ian Dorsch (Jan 5, 2011)

Daniel, thanks for taking the time to post the video. It's always a treat to have a look into someone else's process, especially when the results sound so good.


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## snowleopard (Jan 5, 2011)

Touche Leo! 

I think what makes Dan's tutorial so impressive is that it shows outstanding use of an excellent library (libraries).


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## RiffWraith (Jan 5, 2011)

michel @ Wed Jan 05 said:


> Thank you for the video, Daniel.
> 
> Here is my attempt on another (slower) Zimmer pattern - from Batman Begins. Just playing with LASS and some notes. :D
> 
> Eptesicus on Soundcloud



One problem with this - it's too short! Very good! :D


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## james7275 (Jan 5, 2011)

I thought it was my phone going off interupting the video  

i've never attempted this kind of sound before and didn't really know how to until now. So thanks to eveyone for their input.


----------



## Thonex (Jan 5, 2011)

Daniel James @ Tue Jan 04 said:


> Here you go guys...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o610Eax4upg
> 
> ...



Hi Dan,

Great job!!! Very nice tutorial... I just wanted to thank you for posting such a detailed video.

You're tremolo layer trick was very apropos too. Another cool trick along that line is to tuck semi-tone trills (mixed in just a tad) underneath legato strings when writing more aggressive melodies.

I bet a lot of people will change their views on Ableton Live as only being for DJing and audio loops :wink: 

Nicely done!

Cheers,

Andrew K


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## Dan Mott (Jan 5, 2011)

I really like that in LASS you can still keep the certain rhythm going while going softer to louder. In Hollywood Strings it's really dificult to do this because you can only make Rhythms with the velocity, therefore if you go from soft to loud, This isn't really possible.

Unless I'm wrong. I wish there was a way to make accents on certain notes when playing really soft to keep the dynamics even.


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## Dan Mott (Jan 5, 2011)

I had a go. http://soundcloud.com/destaana/being-hans-zimmer


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## Daniel James (Jan 5, 2011)

Haha I appear to be enlightening people, changing opinions on software and selling libraries all through the power of Zimmer....perhaps I should start charging fro my secrets 

Really glad you guys actually found my advice useful :D 

@Andrew: You are more than welcome, alot of what I did couldn't have been done without your excellent library.

Dan

PS: If any library developers want product video demos, let me know


----------



## RiffWraith (Jan 5, 2011)

Daniel James @ Thu Jan 06 said:


> I appear to be enlightening people, changing opinions on software and selling libraries all through the power of Zimmer....perhaps I should start charging fro my secrets



Perhaps you should be paying him royalties? :lol:


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## Mr Greg G (Jan 6, 2011)

Daniel, did you use the auto divisi feature of the LASS 1.5 update for your track?


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 6, 2011)

Mr Pringles @ Thu Jan 06 said:


> Daniel, did you use the auto divisi feature of the LASS 1.5 update for your track?



Surely even I can answer that on the basis of the video? No.


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## ricother (Jan 6, 2011)

Great video, Dan!
I really appreciate this master class. o-[][]-o


----------



## JohnG (Jan 6, 2011)

nice presentation, Dan. Very generous to create ò    ÛÂ


----------



## adg21 (Jan 6, 2011)

michel @ Wed Jan 05 said:


> Thank you for the video, Daniel.
> 
> Here is my attempt on another (slower) Zimmer pattern - from Batman Begins. Just playing with LASS and some notes. :D
> 
> Eptesicus on Soundcloud



unusual time signature choice o-[][]-o


----------



## michel (Jan 7, 2011)

adg21 @ Fri Jan 07 said:


> michel @ Wed Jan 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you for the video, Daniel.
> ...




I hope, that the 5/4 is correct to match the original music. Maybe I should try some Beltrami-Zimmer patterns in 7/8. :wink:


----------



## Hannes_F (Jan 7, 2011)

While the various demos are really quite good sonicwise there is some element lacking in many ... drive. Am I really the only here that misses that?


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## Dan Mott (Jan 7, 2011)

Hannes_F @ Fri Jan 07 said:


> While the various demos are really quite good sonicwise there is some element lacking in many ... drive. Am I really the only here that misses that?



What do you mean by 'drive' ..... Sir?


----------



## Hicks (Jan 7, 2011)

That's cool to know that Appassionata still rulez!

Lass and HS are very cool also. But for some times now, people forget about VSL strings, and I still find them very useful, especially to make whatever we want to strings.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 7, 2011)

Dan-Jay @ Fri Jan 07 said:


> Hannes_F @ Fri Jan 07 said:
> 
> 
> > While the various demos are really quite good sonicwise there is some element lacking in many ... drive. Am I really the only here that misses that?
> ...



Difficult to define with words. The sort of forward groove that keeps you listening even after a minute or so (feels like the hint of getting a little faster all the time without really accellerating). I felt the HZ spiccs have it (example Dark Knight) and draw you in. Tron (Flynn lives) does not really have it (for me), while it starts with faster spiccs it can't maintain the drive and after 40 seconds I begin looking at my watch or thinking about something else.

I am struggling to find words and examples here, it is easier to play with drive than to define it. BTW it is not necessarily a live vs. samples thing since I have heard lots of live orchestra with lacking drive and electronica that have it.

With live orchestra it is definetely a conductor thing, for bands it is mostly the drummer (plus bass + rhythm guitar of course) that can drive ... or not.


----------



## Hannes_F (Jan 7, 2011)

Another attempt - 

Spiccato passage with drive: Players are sitting on the front edge of their chair, totally awake and attentive. All JW and HZ recordings that I know of have it. Controlled power.

Spiccato passage without drive: Players hang on back rest, play it safe, wait for the end of the session (you've seen that all).

Sorry, I can't say it better :-|

Edit: Just listening to Ice Age 3 OST. Pete Anthony has it.


----------



## Mr Greg G (Jan 7, 2011)

RiffWraith @ Sat Jan 01 said:


> So, I figured I'd throw one into the fray:
> 
> http://www.jeffreyhayat.com/ZimSpicforVI.mp3
> 
> ...



Another question for you  It's difficult to make symphobia stacs or spics sound in sync, how did you proceed to do so and what syò    êq}    êq    êq÷    êr    êrò    ês    êu     êu3    êv-    êv•    êvò    êw2    êwÕ


----------



## RiffWraith (Jan 7, 2011)

Mr Pringles @ Fri Jan 07 said:


> RiffWraith @ Sat Jan 01 said:
> 
> 
> > So, I figured I'd throw one into the fray:
> ...



I used the patch *13 Str Ens staccato short *, utilizing the 3rd and 4th vel layer in the beg, and then the 2nd and 3rd. If you want to layer other stac strings with Symph stacs, try and human-quant the other stacs a little (which I personally do with almost everything anyway) and add some verb to both.



Mr Pringles @ Fri Jan 07 said:


> I also like the sound of the synth you used, may I ask where it comes from (patch)?



The synth patch is a combo of a Hypersonic arp bass patch, and an Evolve bass synth patch.

Cheers.


----------



## ozmorphasis (Jan 7, 2011)

Hannes_F @ Fri Jan 07 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Fri Jan 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Hannes_F @ Fri Jan 07 said:
> ...



Hannes, 

You nailed it! That is the heart of the matter in my opinion with repeated notes. This is why, if you turn to the other period of music where repeated notes are prevalent (classical era of the first Viennese school: Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, etc), samples are extremely lifeless. It's not about round robin, it's about that mysteriously difficult to describe sense of an accellerando that doesn't actually get faster.

When I was studying conducting at the Vienna Conservatory, my teacher spent more time trying to get us to understand how to achieve that sense than any other single parameter of music. It's about feeling how you get to the next note, while playing the current note. This awareness affects how you play your current note profoundly! Since samples are recorded without that sense, it is difficult to recreate it in a mockup.

My teacher use to yell at us all the time: "Nicht nur wiederholen! Jeder achtel muss sich erneuern!" (Don't just repeat! Each 8th note (or 16th) must renew itself!)

I agree that it is very difficult to put this into words. I was finally only able to achieve the right feel after singing the repeated notes over and over until my whole body could feel that elusive sense of repetitions that are constantly phrasing forward (accellerando without speeding up).

Having said that, the results with samples are often times fine, because the composition and intent of the music by the given composer is fairly static anyway. Obviously, mozart, JW, and HZ are not looking for static. Their music dies a very sad death when the repetitions become mere repetitions (round robin or not).

O


----------



## adg21 (Jan 7, 2011)

Hannes_F @ Fri Jan 07 said:


> Another attempt -
> 
> Spiccato passage with drive: Players are sitting on the front edge of their chair, totally awake and attentive. All JW and HZ recordings that I know of have it. Controlled power.
> 
> ...



Hannes, are there any methods (theoretically)that you can think of will give you the results you want using current orchestral libs - if in your mind it's not so much a 'live' thing? I think Daniel's might be regarded as the closest here, how do you think one could improve on that? cheers


----------



## Siggi Mueller (Jan 7, 2011)

Hannes_F @ Fri Jan 07 said:


> Another attempt -
> 
> Spiccato passage with drive: Players are sitting on the front edge of their chair, totally awake and attentive. All JW and HZ recordings that I know of have it. Controlled power.
> 
> ...



True words, Hannes. Also on Pete Anthony (he is a fantastic orchestrator as well) =o


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## Hannes_F (Jan 7, 2011)

adg21 @ Fri Jan 07 said:


> Spiccato passage with drive ... Hannes, are there any methods (theoretically)that you can think of will give you the results you want using current orchestral libs - if in your mind it's not so much a 'live' thing? I think Daniel's might be regarded as the closest here, how do you think one could improve on that? cheers



My best guess would be to eventually reduce the project tempo a bit and play the notes individually ... in slow motion but everything else original (drive, buildup). I have used samples like that with some success before. That would mean less copy & paste but could be worth a try.

Another aproach would be straight forward programming. Imo the whole techno genre shows that it is certainly possible to program synths to be very driving, but I am no expert in this. 

I guess the most important part would be to decide whether and how much it is important individually. Maybe you don't care, or maybe you feel that drive is an item that can make or brake the music. If you know what you want it certainly is easier to get to it.


----------



## autopilot (Jan 7, 2011)

You guys are right - that's one of the big differences - it might be one of those intangibles of samples vs live - 

But in terms of trying to find it with samples, is it a combination of EQ (a little more bow perhaps) live playing rather than quantizing (where you push a little yourself as you play) or even dragging things a few ms ahead of the beat - or just the accented notes ? 

Or sumpin...


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## David Story (Jan 7, 2011)

In analyzing the spectrum of music with drive, both electronic and live, I found a clue: 
There is a steady pulse that is on the beat, and at least one line that is sometimes on, sometimes ahead of the beat. But not by any fixed amount of time.

It's the anticipation of the next beat that gives a sense of accelerating. But then you have to wait for the beat. Getting that balance right is subtle.


----------



## JohnG (Jan 7, 2011)

great post Oz. I completely agree, but had never heard it expressed so well before.

Danke!


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jan 7, 2011)

Ice Age 3 is a fantastic score and the orchestration is just fantastic!

But why the almost direct lift from Holst in the end title? I guess, Powell was forced into it.

I really like his work though!

Best,

Tanuj.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jan 7, 2011)

Daniel,

Your example is the best one here! Thank you for sharing your thoughts. LASS is great but sometimes its a bit tinny and the legatos dont always behave. Well even VSL legatos dont always behave to be honest!

We layer both LASS and Vienna together in the studio. The chunky sound of VSL is amazing. The samples are really versatile and there is a lot of them to choose from. Layering is great fun with VSL samples. 

But LASS is really great too. It sounds really great with a lot of stuff. I think its best to have both. And even Hollywood strings perhaps. I will get around to it at some point.


I think Zimmer is really great with just sound in the most basic sense of it. He has an amazing sense of sound in a way most composers dont in the business. His understanding of audio and creative abilities with music really make him a special composer for this kind of music. 

And of course he works with excellent equipment in an amazing room I presume and with an excellent team. 

Alan Meyerson is a great engineer. A friend who met him at Remote Control told me of his personal plug in chain and how these guys work. They are really serious about sound and they give the due respect to the audio protocol. Even Meyerson has multiple computers hooked just to mix the projects. 

I think what Folman meant about there being more in the music is also a bit on the production and engineering side. Small things like EQ automation on the strings also creates this drive (not the classical music drive and of course some of it is just inherent in the performance). Since Zimmer is an audio geek in some sense, he has creative vision on how it could be manipulated at the mix stage etc. I think its great that he is thinking on this level while composing. 

Throughout most of the Batman Begins album which I am very familiar with, the repeated patterns almost start with a ppp feel and the sound design elements seem to be ducked and they slowly become brighter as the patterns journey their way through the dynamic levels. And of course, there are various synths doing faster motion in the background. 

Zimmer is a really good film composer. Megamind was great recently but mixed too softly in the film. I wish it was more upfront in the mix. It could be a cinema calibration issue.

Again Black Hawk Down and Tears of the sun were great bodies of work. And here again the recordings and production were top-notch - so were the performers!


Just my thoughts!



Best,

Tanuj.


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## snowleopard (Jan 7, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Fri Jan 07 said:


> ***WARNING-COMPLETELY OT CURMUDGEONLY RUMINATION TO FOLLOW***.
> I think...


Interesting perspective Larry. Though I studied music in school I am much more of a synthesist, so one would think I would empathize with you. But your comparison seems to be somewhat apples and oranges to me. I suppose if you're talking about creating music as such in a rather calculating manner is devoid of feeling expressed by someone such as Newman or Vangelis, the you may have a good point. But I think that point is too OT and for another discussion at another time. No?


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## autopilot (Jan 7, 2011)

Yes - can we keep this discussion techinical please - I feel the merits of Zimmer has been discussed before once or twice :-P


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## NYC Composer (Jan 8, 2011)

snowleopard @ Sat Jan 08 said:


> NYC Composer @ Fri Jan 07 said:
> 
> 
> > ***WARNING-COMPLETELY OT CURMUDGEONLY RUMINATION TO FOLLOW***.
> > I think...


Interesting perspective Larry. Though I studied music in school I am much more of a synthesist, so one would think I would empathize with you. But your comparison seems to be somewhat apples and oranges to me. I suppose if you're tò    ÿ    ÿ/    ÿS    ÿ“    i    
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## Hannes_F (Jan 8, 2011)

Weren't we talking about 'drive'?

To me (personally) these three terms - groove, drive, swing - span a triangle of micro-timing that has a ton of impact. I was so happy we finally discussed a genuinely musical topic here, at least for a short while.

I miss re-piet here.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 8, 2011)

Hannes_F @ Sat Jan 08 said:


> Weren't we talking about 'drive'?
> 
> To me (personally) these three terms - groove, drive, swing - span a triangle of micro-timing that has a ton of impact. I was so happy we finally discussed a genuinely musical topic here, at least for a short while.
> 
> I miss re-piet here.



My apologies, Hans. Didn't mean to distract from 'drive'. Carry on.

*Edit*- I'll even add something. I didn't re-read the entire thread, but has anyone talked about emphasizing specific notes slightly in the 16th note pattern to increase the sense of urgency? The first note of each measure to be sure ,or perhaps the first note of every two or four measures, even better. After establishing the pattern for a while, this can be added to by emphasizing the first note of each quartet of sixteenth notes for some length of time, just to change things up, like before a key change or chord change.


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## gsilbers (Jan 8, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Sat Jan 08 said:


> Hannes_F @ Sat Jan 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Weren't we talking about 'drive'?
> ...



i kinda did. but was referring to the actual pattern of these type of spicc passages that happen with very low dynamics with synths, etc

the actual pattern i was thinking that its a divisi doing 8th note "melodies" inside the same range where another divisi is doing arpeggio in 16th and sometimes hitting the same note or notes and another section doing 16th note repeat of only one note so it creates an almost cluster like effect or just hitting two chords at the same time to create a more modal sound... (or just two chords at the same time until a string change happens. 
sorry ....its prob easier done than said  

this very specific to remote control imo. where its alot of times its (unnecessary) under dialog w low dynamics 
as suppose to john william and other great classical trained composers that their spicc (short notes) are just amazing , going all over the place following the action on screen/and or melody. that shiatt.. is very very hard and awesome. but another style. more melody, orchestration yadi yada yada we all know... 


imo, those HZ (or whoever) spicc patterns comes from a synth background, specially from trance music and the overused virus/trancegatter effect which does something like what i explained above. 
but was converted to an orchestral context. thats my opinion because i come from a electronic music bg and when i 1st heard this type of spicc patterns i was like "hey, this sounds familiar", hoped on to my virus TI and indeed its "similar" 

of course there is more to it, because you have a new language pretty much with an orchestra, melody etc. but that specific spicc patterns was borrowed from trance music imo. which also has a specific sound, very warm, with low dynamics going into very loud and upfront. 

i dunno if its real players that hanz uses anymore or its his new 10.1 surround, 192k 24 bit - london symphony orchestra samples doing the job. still sounds great. 
for that style of filmscoring. as like john williams..."everything" with a live london symphony orchestra sounds also great.


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## JJP (Jan 8, 2011)

I think the "drive" (or "groove" or "feel") is something that is really more of a performance consideration than orchestration... though orchestration can enable the players more freedom to enhance the effect.

When working with experienced musicians, you can often ask them to play a little "on top" (ahead) of the beat or to "lay back" (play behind) beat. In some well written passages, players will know what to do instinctively.

Interestingly enough, this is not about changing the tempo and is not a simple randomizing of the attack like a humanize function in a sequencer. What happens is the players are consistently articulating the notes a little before or after the beat depending on the desired effect. This creates a tension and has the feel of pushing the tempo forward or pulling it back. Since the exact amount push or pull against the beat varies due to natural human inconsistency, there is also a natural tension that develops within the ensemble.

There is also a timbral effect that comes from this type of playing. When playing ahead of the beat, players naturally alter the articulation so that the instrument speaks faster. The opposite is true for playing behind the beat. In addition, they may also instinctively change the tone of the instrument to make it a little more or less strident for intensity.

All these changes are quite subtle, and sometimes even the players have a hard time explaining exactly what they do. For example many rhythm section players will just say that they are "playing on the front side of the beat," or "pushing the beat" or "laying back".

Anyway, just my thoughts on a somewhat esoteric term. :wink:


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## oxo (Feb 27, 2011)

@ daniel james

big thx for this great video-tutorial!

usually I'm totally untalented. here's my version, thanks to your help.

http://www.box.net/shared/mquvgcjres


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## stargazer (Feb 27, 2011)

In the beginning of this thread somebody mentioned Flynn Lives.
I would like to hear mockups with different libs of the first bars of that piece.
IMHO, achieving "drive" by layering and hiding/masking the strings with synths and percussive elements is one thing, but creating that lighter, more airy, but still forward-moving feel (see Flynn Lives) with strings only, is another. You know, the way the attacks are light and bouncy, but still "connected". o/~


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## Udo (Feb 28, 2011)

MacQ @ Tue Mar 01 said:


> ..... this stuff has been tread and retread so often as to lose its impact. At least, in my opinion.


Amen!


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## Vartio (Mar 31, 2011)

just run into this thread, and realized I have some similar stuff going on here:
http://soundcloud.com/socq/exdominus-wip3
i think i managed to pull the sound off quite nicely. tho i use a lot of not so Hans Zimmer ish stuff there too. its most noticeable at the very end.


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## Mr Greg G (Apr 1, 2011)

There are just some offbeat notes in the beginning of your track; Vartio but besides that it's quite nice track, I like it!  
Well done.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 1, 2011)

Daniel - fantastic video, man! The sound is excellent as well. Thank you so much for doing this! BTW, I tried calling you, but you don't answer your cell.


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## Daniel James (Apr 1, 2011)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Apr 01 said:


> Daniel - fantastic video, man! The sound is excellent as well. Thank you so much for doing this! BTW, I tried calling you, but you don't answer your cell.



Haha I always wondered who that was xD

Dan


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## Tanuj Tiku (May 31, 2012)

A test I conducted with a friend of mine. I had earlier posted a VSL only version about a year ago!

But here is a new version using VSL, LASS (Courtesy a friend), 8DIO and Project SAM.


http://soundcloud.com/tanujtiku/tdk-test-for-vi-control

Its still not similar to the original but its a little closer than my old attempt which was strings only. 

Best,

Tanuj.


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## Tanuj Tiku (May 31, 2012)

Replaced the file. There was a small mix render issue. 

Same link:

http://soundcloud.com/tanujtiku/tdk-test-for-vi-control


Best,

Tanuj.


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## HDJK (Jun 1, 2012)

Sounds very good Tanuj :D


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## mark812 (Jun 1, 2012)

Daniel James @ Tue Jan 04 said:


> Here you go guys...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o610Eax4upg
> 
> ...



"Video is private." :(

Is it uploaded anywhere else maybe? I'd really like to watch it.


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## Dan Mott (Jun 1, 2012)

Sounds good Tanuj. Best so far IMO.


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## eschroder (Jun 1, 2012)

I'm convinced that only Lass (I'm a HS owner) can give you that grit needed on the strings to pull this off. Sounded great man.


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## Darthmorphling (Jun 1, 2012)

mark812 @ Fri Jun 01 said:


> Daniel James @ Tue Jan 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Here you go guys...
> ...



Would love to see this as well! New to this genre of music and have learned quite a bit from Daniel's videos.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jun 1, 2012)

Guys,

This track has LASS but its also heavily mixed with VSL.

I find LASS has great shorts but VSL has an amazing chunky sound. I feel it adds good weight to the arrangement. 

The brass of course is from VSL and they are really great.

I just added the last brass swell and some corrective EQ. Same link.

Hans's track is so much better. It does not poke at all. Its extremely smooth and I dont know how they did that! Its big but yet there is a smoothness to the over all sound. The percussion in the original is more complex than my track. 

The strings sound great on the original and there is a certain up-front yet smooth sound again. I collapsed the stereo width in my string track and that made it sound much better but its still no match for the original.


Best,

Tanuj.


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## Anonymous (Jun 2, 2012)

Darthmorphling @ Fri Jun 01 said:


> mark812 @ Fri Jun 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Daniel James @ Tue Jan 04 said:
> ...



Yes, just discovering this thread, how can we view the tutorial?


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## Daniel James (Jun 3, 2012)

Sorry guys that video is gone now. Mainly out of respect for Hans. Didn't wanna tread on anyone's toes. 

Dan


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## Erik (Jun 3, 2012)

Hi,
Joining this club quite late, but here is my one.
No synths, no taiko, no toms....

Comments are welcome!

[mp3]http://www.musesamples.com/blog2/MP3/CloseInvaders.mp3[/mp3]


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## knightacs (Jun 3, 2012)

Daniel James @ Sun Jun 03 said:


> Sorry guys that video is gone now. Mainly out of respect for Hans. Didn't wanna tread on anyone's toes.
> 
> Dan



Huh? How does a tutorial video with some orchestration techniques tread on someone's toes? And how was it disrespectful to Hans Zimmer? I mean, if you want to take it down that's cool, it's your video, but that really doesn't make sense. I remember watching it a long time ago, it was perfectly fine.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Jun 3, 2012)

knightacs @ Sun Jun 03 said:


> Daniel James @ Sun Jun 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry guys that video is gone now. Mainly out of respect for Hans. Didn't wanna tread on anyone's toes.
> ...



doesn't make sense at all

maybe Riff's comment helped Dan's decision... 



RiffWraith @ Thu Jan 06 said:


> Perhaps you should be paying him royalties? :lol:


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## Darthmorphling (Jun 3, 2012)

Daniel James @ Sun Jun 03 said:


> Sorry guys that video is gone now. Mainly out of respect for Hans. Didn't wanna tread on anyone's toes.
> 
> Dan



That's cool. Maybe a new video on how you go about starting a new piece that features some of the same techniques?

As a 5th grade teacher, I recognize when someone has an innate ability to convey information in a way that is easy to digest. You, Alex Pfeffer, and Mike Verta all have it.


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## Consona (Jun 3, 2012)

Mimesis is probably the most original form of art. From this point of view, there is nothing wrong with videos like that. I think it is rather compliment than disrespect. Unless you are his co-worker sharing his secrets. :D

But "_(...) if you want to take it down that's cool, it's your video (...)_"


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## RiffWraith (Jun 3, 2012)

Gabriel Oliveira @ Sun Jun 03 said:


> maybe Riff's comment helped Dan's decision...



Uh, that was a joke, right?


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Jun 3, 2012)

RiffWraith @ Sun Jun 03 said:


> Uh, that was a joke, right?



for sure was! but maybe Dan is a sensitive guy... who knows :roll:


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## Daniel James (Jun 3, 2012)

Haha na not a legal thing, just a respect thing 

Dan


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## ryanstrong (Jun 3, 2012)

Did someone from the Zimmer camp ask you to take it down?


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## Diffusor (Jun 3, 2012)

Interesting sidenote: I was watching several episodes of Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman on the Science Channel tonight. Hans Zimmer does all the music.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jun 3, 2012)

Daniel actually knows Mr. Zimmer well. I get it.


Tanuj.


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## Dan Mott (Jun 3, 2012)

Daniel's version of the Zimmer patterns were so good that Han's probably wanted them taken down because he thought people would steal his technique. I get it.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 4, 2012)

Dan-Jay @ Mon Jun 04 said:


> Daniel's version of the Zimmer patterns were so good that Han's probably wanted them taken down because he thought people would steal his technique. I get it.



Are you joking?


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## rpaillot (Jun 4, 2012)

Dan-Jay @ Sun Jun 03 said:


> Daniel's version of the Zimmer patterns were so good that Han's probably wanted them taken down because he thought people would steal his technique. I get it.



Its already been stolen 10000 times.


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## Dan Mott (Jun 4, 2012)

Sarcasm guys.


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## HDJK (Jun 4, 2012)

Erik @ Sun Jun 03 said:


> Hi,
> Joining this club quite late, but here is my one.
> No synths, no taiko, no toms....
> 
> ...



Sounds great! Which string library are you using?


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## ryanstrong (Jun 4, 2012)

Daniel you are entitled to do whatever you want with your video, obviously, but when you say out of respect for Zimmer... how was the video disrespectful?

If the video wasn't necessarily disrespectful in terms of its content this leads me to think that it could be possible that Zimmer or someone from the Zimmer team ask Daniel to take it down. Zimmer does or at least has visited and contributed to this forum so he or his team is at least aware of what is being said here.

I hope that isnt the case and am doubtful it is, but I guess anything is possible.

That said.... Daniel if many people found your video to be educational and helpful to further their ability to execute a technique that aids in their music ability I would think Hans, being a proponent of music education and the arts over the years, would not mind nor feel offended, disrespected, or even vulnerable by the video.

Take pride that what you are doing is helping/educating a lot of people and also just plain making great music.


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## XcesSound (Jun 4, 2012)

rystro @ Mon Jun 04 said:


> Daniel you are entitled to do whatever you want with your video, obviously, but when you say out of respect for Zimmer... how was the video disrespectful?
> 
> If the video wasn't necessarily disrespectful in terms of its content this leads me to think that it could be possible that Zimmer or someone from the Zimmer team ask Daniel to take it down. Zimmer does or at least has visited and contributed to this forum so he or his team is at least aware of what is being said here.
> 
> ...



Very well said, thank you.


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## MaestroRage (Jun 4, 2012)

oh no! I didn't get a chance to see the video :(. Dan please reconsider putting it back.


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## Simon Ravn (Jun 4, 2012)

OK I wanted to join in on the fun as well I tried the first part of "Flynn Lives" as well as a test.

http://www.simonravn.com/media/SR-FlynnLives-test.mp3

A lot of different samples in there, and I can see why Zimmer would need a handful of programmers if this has to be done to 50 minutes of music, although I realize that much of it is live as well.


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## ryanstrong (Jun 4, 2012)

Simon Ravn @ Mon Jun 04 said:


> OK I wanted to join in on the fun as well I tried the first part of "Flynn Lives" as well as a test.
> 
> http://www.simonravn.com/media/SR-FlynnLives-test.mp3
> 
> A lot of different samples in there, and I can see why Zimmer would need a handful of programmers if this has to be done to 50 minutes of music, although I realize that much of it is live as well.



Sounds great! Very smooth and wide. Care to explain your process / sample libraries used?


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## Simon Ravn (Jun 5, 2012)

rystro @ Mon Jun 04 said:


> Simon Ravn @ Mon Jun 04 said:
> 
> 
> > OK I wanted to join in on the fun as well I tried the first part of "Flynn Lives" as well as a test.
> ...



Thanks. A combination of Spitfire (bespoke) strings and LASS. Just some EQ, Altiverb on LASS + Bricasti reverb at the end.

Now, this whole thread made me wanting more. I wanted to set up a standardized "Zimmer spiccato" channel in my template, so that I would be able to do (at least to some extent) this stuff using just one MIDI channel. So I used some hours yesterday and today to tweak this and see what I could do to make it all instant - without any need for post production.

So this is what I came up with:

http://www.simonravn.com/media/SR-Zimmer-test.mp3

Bear in mind that this does not have the tremolo lines underneath that my original example also used, so that could be used to further improve it but I wanted to see how far I could get with just short notes.

This is still Spitfire + LASS (but put together a bit differently) and what I figured was that I could use a plugin like UAD SPL Transient designer to make the attack of the notes a bit softer and the releases last longer. So this also helped create a fuller sound at the end. It is quote resource hungry, I guess this is using about 150-200 voices just for the staccato line.

But this is nice to have in the future since I will most likely be doing something like this on a project soon. And I have the flexibility of having violins, violas and cellos available separately as well if neccessary.


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## Erik (Jun 5, 2012)

HDJK,
Thanks!
I used LASS A-B-C combined with SessionStringsPro for all spiccato/staccato strings (Cb/Vlc/Vla/Vl). I combine these patches more often, sometimes SSP + only one Lass patch (A, B or C)
(Dimension) Brass from VSL.


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## Erik (Jun 5, 2012)

Hi Simon,
Sounds great! 

Is it possible to share the basic midi file maybe? It could be interesting to do another version with it.

best,
Erik


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## will_m (Jun 6, 2012)

Would anyone be able to summarise the techniques used in dans video and also the rest of this topic? Unfortunately I joined this thread rather late and now the video is private, sounded good as well. So far I have:

Delay in 8ths with minimal feedback
Underlying synth arpeggio patterns
Playing in low velocities 
Using spicc ghost notes behind the main pattern
Using light percussion or sticks mixed low that follow the pattern
Some sort of tremolo layer which was in dans video that I'm not sure about


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## HDJK (Jun 7, 2012)

will_m @ Thu Jun 07 said:


> Would anyone be able to summarise the techniques used in dans video and also the rest of this topic?



Since he already pulled the video, I think it's up to Dan to summarize his video.


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## HDJK (Jun 7, 2012)

Erik @ Tue Jun 05 said:


> HDJK,
> Thanks!
> I used LASS A-B-C combined with SessionStringsPro for all spiccato/staccato strings (Cb/Vlc/Vla/Vl). I combine these patches more often, sometimes SSP + only one Lass patch (A, B or C)
> (Dimension) Brass from VSL.



Thanks for the follow up  

SSP, I never considered any NI VI after I heard the pianos (IMHO they sound really weak). Maybe I have to listen to some SSP demos.


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## Ryan (Jun 7, 2012)

7 min work. This is straight from my template. no additional tweaks.

Edit: new version.

http://soundcloud.com/ryan1986/hz-spiccato1


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## noizy (Oct 12, 2012)

hey guys,

just wanted to say thanks for all posts. very interesting. i learned a lot. 8)


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## JohnG (Oct 12, 2012)

nice job, Simon and Ryan.


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## sluggo (Oct 12, 2012)

The bad news: Everyone is doing the same 16th note string patterns Hans & co. does.
The good news: Everyone is doing the same 16th note string patterns Hans & co. does and hopefully once it becomes uber-saturated (3:30pm today) Hans will come up with a new device for us all to marvel at and try to duplicate.


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## Leosc (Oct 12, 2012)

sluggo @ Fri Oct 12 said:


> Hans will come up with a new device for us all to marvel at and try to duplicate.



Now that would be a first.


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## germancomponist (Oct 12, 2012)

sluggo @ Fri Oct 12 said:


> The bad news: Everyone is doing the same 16th note string patterns Hans & co. does.
> The good news: Everyone is doing the same 16th note string patterns Hans & co. does and hopefully once it becomes uber-saturated (3:30pm today) Hans will come up with a new device for us all to marvel at and try to duplicate.



I could remind you to a new string lib what is built for doing this....., because there are pre recorded 16th e.t.c...., but I better will not.


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## guitarman1960 (Mar 10, 2013)

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned Trance music influences. Well the godfathers of Trance were Tangerine Dream and Klaus Schulze, both German electronic music pioneers of course, and when I first saw Batman Begins at the Cinema and those pulsing patterns came in on the soundtrack, I thought, Wow Tangerine Dream and Klaus Schulze!!
Take a listen to the album Trancefer by Klaus Sculze recorded in the 1970's and if you didn't know it you could be listening to something from a Zimmer score.

Saw both Schulze and Tangerine Dream back in the 70's and don't think either have received enough credit for just how influential they have been, not just on Trance and Electronic music in general, but also on film composers.

I haven't read of Hans Zimmers influences and favourite artists, but I would imagine him to be a big fan of both these great artists.


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## quantum7 (Mar 10, 2013)

I really wish I could have seen that video that Daniel was compelled to remove.


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## Darthmorphling (Mar 10, 2013)

quantum7 @ Sun Mar 10 said:


> I really wish I could have seen that video that Daniel was compelled to remove.



I do as well. He nailed the sound perfectly!


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## Rctec (Mar 10, 2013)

I just love the way people don't really think about the 'real world' consequences here...Daniel was kind enough to take it down, because - just leading up to the movie - we tried to create a bit of silence from those ostinatoes in the world. It has nothing to do with 'compelling' him (how quickly people think 'conspiracy' or 'bully'), but just him actually getting it. We where in the middle of a sequel, and - no matter how unorginal and simplistic a motive it is - it might be nice to give the Dark Knight crew a bit of a break. I see that Leosc doesn't think I come up with anything for anyone to marvel at. He might be right. But it still - just like the "Inception" thing, or the "Sherlock" thing - has taken a firm foothold in the Zeitgeist. So don't look at it strictly from an academic musical point of view. Look at it why it becomes and stays successful. Anybody can be a one-hit wonder. It's hard to maintain that stuff over a length of time.
-Hz-


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 10, 2013)

Sitting in front of a blank sheet.... this well known ivory b&w pattern staring at me.... I don't dare to press a key, don't want to spoil this moment.... guess it is a hate & love thing....this eternal moment of "I don't know how!".... when suddenly something happens, and although it is totally silent there is something to be heard... Then I start playing....

Best
Georg


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## Darthmorphling (Mar 10, 2013)

Rctec @ Sun Mar 10 said:


> I just love the way people don't really think about the 'real world' consequences here...Daniel was kind enough to take it down, because - just leading up to the movie - we tried to create a bit of silence from those ostinatoes in the world. It has nothing to do with 'compelling' him (how quickly people think 'conspiracy' or 'bully'), but just him actually getting it. We where in the middle of a sequel, and - no matter how unorginal and simplistic a motive it is - it might be nice to give the Dark Knight crew a bit of a break. I see that Leosc doesn't think I come up with anything for anyone to marvel at. He might be right. But it still - just like the "Inception" thing, or the "Sherlock" thing - has taken a firm foothold in the Zeitgeist. So don't look at it strictly from an academic musical point of view. Look at it why it becomes and stays successful. Anybody can be a one-hit wonder. It's hard to maintain that stuff over a length of time.
> -Hz-



I do understand why he took it down and ultimately he did the right thing. I just wish I could have seen how he accomplished it. As a hobbyist, and a bit of a tech geek, seeing how things are done can be more fascinating than actually doing them. This may be why I never finish my own music :mrgreen: 

Now for the real question. Since you are doing the Superman movie he is now on equal footing with Batman. Who would win? Bats or Supes?


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## Rctec (Mar 10, 2013)

I just love the way people don't really think about the 'real world' consequences here...Daniel was kind enough to take it down, because - just leading up to the movie - we tried to create a bit of silence from those ostinatoes in the world. It has nothing to do with 'compelling' him (how quickly people think 'conspiracy' or 'bully'), but just him actually getting it. We where in the middle of a sequel, and - no matter how unorginal and simplistic a motive it is - it might be nice to give the Dark Knight crew a bit of a break. I see that Leosc doesn't think I come up with anything for anyone to marvel at. He might be right. But it still - just like the "Inception" thing, or the "Sherlock" thing - has taken a firm foothold in the Zeitgeist. So don't look at it strictly from an academic musical point of view. Look at it why it becomes and stays successful. Anybody can be a one-hit wonder. It's hard to maintain that stuff over a length of time.
-Hz-


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## quantum7 (Mar 10, 2013)

Wow, I meant "compelled" only as in "Daniel felt the need". I had no idea about it's content except that that I believed he was explaining how he achieved his great ostinatoes.....and I love Daniels videos. My wife is giving me a worried look that I may have annoyed my favorite movie composer. She says that if I do not apologize I may have to go to composer hell and be sentenced to write infomercial jingles for the rest of my life. My sincerest apologies! Next time I will read the ENTIRE thread first. :oops:


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## Rctec (Mar 10, 2013)

Nah..I'm not annoyed one bit! But it's always interesting to see that people find it so hard to make sense of us trying to protect an ongoing franchise...The problem with the "ideas", minimalist scores is...they ware out their welcome really fast. Imagine we tried to do an "Inception 2" (not that we are), and the Brooomzwah (sp?) would be an integral part of the story...well, pretty much every trailer has made that impossible. But don't worry. I just thought it was worth mentioning the reason and Daniel's graciousness.
-Hz-


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## quantum7 (Mar 10, 2013)

Rctec @ Sun Mar 10 said:


> Nah..I'm not annoyed one bit! But it's always interesting to see that people find it so hard to make sense of us trying to protect an ongoing franchise...The problem with the "ideas", minimalist scores is...they ware out their welcome really fast. Imagine we tried to do an "Inception 2" (not that we are), and the Brooomzwah (sp?) would be an integral part of the story...well, pretty much every trailer has made that impossible. But don't worry. I just thought it was worth mentioning the reason and Daniel's graciousness.
> -Hz-



Mr. HZ is truly a class-act and a gift to lovers of soundtrack music everywhere.


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## Darthmorphling (Mar 10, 2013)

I too did not mean to slight the importance of keeping your sounds from being taken. It was purely an academic desire for me and totally understand the desire to keep it identifiable as Batman.

And I'll take your silence to my question as to who would win, Superman or Batman, as confirmation that you are contracted for the rumored Batman vs. Superman movie and do not want to violate your NDA 0oD 

regards,

Don


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## Leosc (Mar 11, 2013)

Rctec @ Sun Mar 10 said:


> I see that Leosc doesn't think I come up with anything for anyone to marvel at.



Cum grano salis, Hans. 'tis meant as challenge.


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## Dean (Mar 11, 2013)

I dont get this?All these posts/links and discussions dedicated to openly copying another composers voice.I know HZ did'nt create the ostinato but this is clearly his voice/sound.

How many times does he have to chime in to politely ask fellow composers and even sometimes friends to please stop ripping off his DK/Inception sound and go and get their own voice.Not very many Iconic composers chat so openly,offering help and advice on forums yet some folks respond by posting links,videos,tutorials and detailed descriptions on how to rip off his sound?It just dilutes the well and eventually spoils the whole thing.HZ percussion,...whats next HZ ostinatos? :roll: D


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## reddognoyz (Mar 11, 2013)

Dean @ Mon Mar 11 said:


> HZ did'nt create the ostinato but this is clearly his voice/sound.



MR Z has a little bit more up his sleeve than that : ) He's a monster film composer. I would love to have his mad skills.


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## Resoded (Mar 11, 2013)

Maybe it's just me but I can't really understand the point concerning dilution. For more than a hundred years, and still today, people use the same orchestra, pretty much the same instruments, often in very similar fashion. The work of Vivaldi, Stravinsky or Mozart is, in my opinion, not at all affected by what other people do today. In fact, the more orchestral music I hear, the more I admire the greats. 

It's the same thing with Zimmers style. Lots of people have started using similar instruments, synths, sound design, large sections and what not. And for every composer I hear, I appreciate what Zimmer does even more because, out of all the composers I've heard, not even one is close to Zimmers sound. I wish they were, because I love it, but no not even close. Same instruments yes, but different. The trailer composers aren't even close.



Dean @ 11th March 2013 said:


> I dont get this?All these posts/links and discussions dedicated to openly copying another composers voice.I know HZ did'nt create the ostinato but this is clearly his voice/sound.
> 
> How many times does he have to chime in to politely ask fellow composers and even sometimes friends to please stop ripping off his DK/Inception sound and go and get their own voice.Not very many Iconic composers chat so openly,offering help and advice on forums yet some folks respond by posting links,videos,tutorials and detailed descriptions on how to rip off his sound?It just dilutes the well and eventually spoils the whole thing.HZ percussion,...whats next HZ ostinatos? :roll: D



Well, making HZ perc was as far as I understand his own undertaking.


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## germancomponist (Mar 11, 2013)

Rctec @ Mon Mar 11 said:


> ......well, pretty much every trailer has made that impossible. But don't worry. I just thought it was worth mentioning the reason and Daniel's graciousness.
> -Hz-



+1


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## Dean (Mar 11, 2013)

reddognoyz @ Mon Mar 11 said:


> MR Z has a little bit more up his sleeve than that : )



Hey reddognoyz,
Im sure he does but I think that other composers should have more up their sleeves than Hans Zimmer.

I love dark,brooding synth pulses and string ostintos but,I dont see the point of getting that exact DK sound with swelling brass and those chord changes etc,..to me thats overkill.I think heres a big difference between influence and actually microscopically going through specific composers cues and ostinatos then passing it off as their own. 

ps:I know the Perc lib was his idea,he does'nt own that sound anymore anyway. D


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## Darthmorphling (Mar 11, 2013)

Dean @ Mon Mar 11 said:


> I dont get this?All these posts/links and discussions dedicated to openly copying another composers voice.I know HZ did'nt create the ostinato but this is clearly his voice/sound.
> 
> How many times does he have to chime in to politely ask fellow composers and even sometimes friends to please stop ripping off his DK/Inception sound and go and get their own voice.Not very many Iconic composers chat so openly,offering help and advice on forums yet some folks respond by posting links,videos,tutorials and detailed descriptions on how to rip off his sound?It just dilutes the well and eventually spoils the whole thing.HZ percussion,...whats next HZ ostinatos? :roll: D



It's not so much copying his sound, but rather learning how someone created the sound opens up many opportunities for learning. You take the new information, incorporate it into your own style, and you have further expanded your pallette.

It baffles the mind when I see people, on this very forum, say to study the scores of the greats. However, trying to figure out how today's film composers do some of what they do is considered bad. Why is it ok for one and not the others?

I do not own Omnisphere, but I learned a lot about synth programming from Daniel's "Operation Big Eye" videos. I was able to program one of his Omnisphere patches into Crystal and in Zebralette. Am I going to use them? Of course not, but the act of making them has increased my knowledge.

I do get Hans' desire to not cheapen the sound, and fully respect Daniel's decision to pull the video. However, I still have a lot to learn about programming CC data and I have a feeling I would have learned a lot by viewing it. Watching Alex Pfeffer's latest video on his layering of strings was incredibly eye opening for me in how he programmed the CC data.

Respectfully,

Don


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## Daniel James (Mar 11, 2013)

Hey all,

Lol havn't seen this thread for a while, Just wanted to say that, I, decided to pull the video. I wasnt forced or coerced. Decided that what I was showing was so close to the source material that it was a bit unfair given the time I posted it (around when TDKR was getting some media). I then sat and talked to Hans about it over pea soup and rambled on about how I wish I came up with the Bane chant xD Great theme that one!

But yeah I hope the subsequent like 20 hours worth of tutorials after that video came down keep you busy enough and inspire you to try some new things in the future. 

-DJ


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## Darthmorphling (Mar 11, 2013)

Daniel James @ Mon Mar 11 said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Lol havn't seen this thread for a while, Just wanted to say that, I, decided to pull the video. I wasnt forced or coerced. Decided that what I was showing was so close to the source material that it was a bit unfair given the time I posted it (around when TDKR was getting some media). I then sat and talked to Hans about it over pea soup and rambled on about how I wish I came up with the Bane chant xD Great theme that one!
> 
> ...



Your tutorials since then have been wonderful and ever increasing in length. That is a good thing. Still waiting on the Zebra video you teased about last summer :mrgreen:


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## Inductance (Mar 11, 2013)

Darthmorphling @ Mon Mar 11 said:


> It baffles the mind when I see people, on this very forum, say to study the scores of the greats. However, trying to figure out how today's film composers do some of what they do is considered bad. Why is it ok for one and not the others?



Because HZ considers his compositions pretty minimalist when it comes to melodic and harmonic content, so most of the content of his compositions is the sound itself. He explained it in another thread, but up until that point I hadn't thought about it that way. 

We study scores to learn, say, how certain combinations of instruments were used to produce certain sounds, or how a certain line was written, etc. But emulating Hans' sound would be the equivalent of "emulating" John Williams' Jaws theme, note for note (which we'd all agree isn't "emulating" at all). 

Several months ago U-he released The Dark Zebra, which has a lot of patches used in the Dark Knight films. These patches are like our "study scores," in a way. I suppose we could just use the preset patches in our compositions (since, after all, Hans, Howard Scarr, and Urs made them available), but wouldn't that be too much like just "copying the score, note for note"? Instead we could use the presets as a starting point, figuring out how they got certain sounds, and then crafting our own sounds from there.


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## germancomponist (Mar 11, 2013)

Inductance @ Mon Mar 11 said:


> Several months ago U-he released The Dark Zebra, which has a lot of patches used in the Dark Knight films. These patches are like our "study scores," in a way. I suppose we could just use the preset patches in our compositions (since, after all, Hans, Howard Scarr, and Urs made them available), but wouldn't that be too much like just "copying the score, note for note"? Instead we could use the presets as a starting point, figuring out how they got certain sounds, and then crafting our own sounds from there.



I think this is/was Hans's intention... .


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 11, 2013)

Sure because by the time you guys have all studied the Dark Zebra patches and gotten any insight into how they were achieved, Hans will have moved on to new things.

That is why he IS hans Zimmer. He does not have the formal knowledge of a John Williams or a Jerry Goldsmith. It is arguable whether he has all that much musical talent in the conventional measurements of inventiveness with melody and harmony.

But what he undeniably DOES have is:
1. A strong work ethic.
2. A drive to be on top.
3. A prodigious intellectual curiosity.
4. Great ears.
5. A thorough understanding of how music works emotionally with picture.


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## germancomponist (Mar 11, 2013)

I would say: Hans understands it well, to accompany the emotion in a film to describe. And that's what his job is!

Film music isn't concert music!


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## Dean (Mar 11, 2013)

I think Inductance hit the nail on the head.

Studying classical music or modern scores,orchestral techniques etc,is great for learning (and even stealing ideas here and there along the way is fine,we all do it).But studying the specific sound and tone of a composers ostinato,the brass swells,the organic synth pulses and the chord progressions and then copying all those elements together,..thats basically ripping off someones voice/sound and passing it off as your own.

btw: Daniel, I gave your ostinato vid a miss,your other vids are usually very inspiring,maybe you just got carried away,..anyway world keeps turning. D


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## Dan Mott (Mar 11, 2013)

I don't think Dan's video was unfair at all. So confused as to why it would be unfair to see that stuff, considering that it was just ostinatos, playing notes that have been played a lot before and just synth stuff under it. 

So many videos on YouTube with people telling you how they copied sounds from other composers, ect. So why does this one have to go down over so many anyway?

For non composers and musicians, I really don't think anyone would have noticed or cared. 

To me it's not such a big deal.... but just an attempt at something a lot of people like and it was interesting seeing how people did their own little versions of it.


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## Dean (Mar 11, 2013)

Dan-Jay @ Mon Mar 11 said:


> I don't think Dan's video was unfair at all. So confused as to why it would be unfair to see that stuff, considering that it was just ostinatos, playing notes that have been played a lot before and just synth stuff under it.
> 
> So many videos on YouTube with people telling you how they copied sounds from other composers, ect. So why does this one have to go down over so many anyway?
> 
> ...



Dan,I agree,Daniels vid was not a big deal at all,..now back to ostinatos.
Your right,it is just ostinatos,notes and synth stuff,but thats the point.
I'm talking about the way he did it,..his sound,..anyway some people seem happy to emulate HZ and others would rather just take a pinch of Zimmer and add their own voice instead. D


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## Daniel James (Mar 11, 2013)

Dan-Jay @ Mon Mar 11 said:


> I don't think Dan's video was unfair at all. So confused as to why it would be unfair to see that stuff, considering that it was just ostinatos, playing notes that have been played a lot before and just synth stuff under it.
> 
> So many videos on YouTube with people telling you how they copied sounds from other composers, ect. So why does this one have to go down over so many anyway?
> 
> ...



Keep in mind that our little community is actually a very small one, and so telling someone how to sound like someone else is a bit personal. Imagine you did something cool in a track and I made a video telling everyone exactly how to copy you...it would make your cool trick less rare and its would get old fast...Thats kind of what happened with my video and so I thought it was more appropriate to pull it.

In every video since I have only shown tricks that I do. I don't think I will ever do another "how to sound like x or y video" because, like I say, our community is extremely small.

-DJ


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## Darthmorphling (Mar 11, 2013)

I'm not even after his sound. When I first started becoming interested in composing last year, I discovered Mike Verta's videos. In one of them he goes over how he plays his notes in. I learned a lot in how he uses the modwheel. Then I discovered Daniel and Alex's videos and learned other things from their's. I noticed the cc data was not so much played in all of the time, but a combination of that and drawing it in. Then in the current synth thread, Hans mentions that a lot of his stuff was heavily quantized and he spent a great deal of time programming the CC data. To me that is what is interesting.

I have seen numerous people say quantization is bad and that everything needs to be played in. You then have a top name composer saying the opposite. So obviously, no one method is the correct one, and the more knowledge you have the better off you are. 

As Hans said in of the his first appearances here, "you can't sound like me anymore than I can sound like you." please forgive the paraphrasing.

Now I admit there have been a few compositions by new people on the forum that have really taken his sound and called it their own. I do get what some of you are saying. I was looking at as more of a learning tool as opposed to stealing his sound.

Don


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## woodsdenis (Mar 11, 2013)

Good lord not this again, HZ is a brilliant film composer who uses the entire palette of orchestral and synthetic timbres to create an emotional responses in his audience. That simply in a nutshell is why he is were he is today. I get really tired of the snobbery and innuendo on here sometimes. 

He didnt invent "ostinato spicc" patterns or "low brass braaaams" but his use of them brought them so much into the public consciousness , that they are now immediately associated with the films that they accompany. That is incredibly difficult to do. Perhaps only Psycho and Jaws have the same sonic footprint and individuality. 

I don't hear a lot of folks on here complaining about John Williams and 'Jaws' because its a simplistic two note riff. It works in 'Jaws' because in sync with the picture its perfect, end of story. Its the same with HZ. You don't need a Berklee degree or a deep knowledge of Orchestration to be a successful film/media composer anymore, perhaps some of the dinosaurs around here should reflect on that.

Finally, The Edge (U2) didn't invent the dotted 8th note delay, but he certainly made it his own unique voice.


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## Dan Mott (Mar 11, 2013)

Hey Dan

Our community is small, but it's kind of the same as mixing videos. We have all watched mixing videos, but that doesn't make us big mixing engineers. Hans could come in here and show exactly how he does things and so can Alan Meyerson, but that still wouldn't make anyone as big as them or give anyone an instant career in the industry.

I don't mind that the video is down and I am not complaining about wanting it back up, but just a little confused as to why it has to be taken down and as to why our community has to be so secretive. Can't we all just teach other stuff? I do not see Hans ostinato thing to be any sort of miracle discovery and trick anyway for the video to be pulled. It is only a technique that composers can use in their own way and I really like when composers such as your self, Dan, share what you do. Also, if Hans was so concerned about being copied, then why would he generously give us access to the patches he programmed for his movies in Zebra? Seems like a bit of a contradiction if you ask me.

We can learn all the tricks of the trade in the industry and sure can get close when we copy it, but to me it's still about the individual being able to make a great track for them selves. I mean, I am sure everyone would have the common sense that they aren't going to get anywhere by copying someone. 

Same with sample libraries. We are all able to sound great when we are using high end libraries, such as Hollywood Strings, ect, but it still comes down to how well you can write and arrange. Same with gear, ect. I think you know what I mean now. 

In the end, I think it's down to the individual and their writing. I wouldn't mind showing my tricks if I had any and Then I guess it's the other composers fault if they want to spend their entire career, trying to immitate that trick. They won't get anywhere. Just IMO.


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## Rctec (Mar 11, 2013)

Gosh, Dan-Jay. After contemplating quitting music, you decided on quitting thinking instead...
Maybe this will help:
http://classicalconvert.com/2007/07/the-stupidest-music-lawsuit-ever-infringing-on-cages-433/ (http://classicalconvert.com/2007/07/the ... cages-433/)
...Hint: It's not about The Notes...


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## Dan Mott (Mar 11, 2013)

And that's your explanation on why the video was taken down? Because of copyright infringement?


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## Rctec (Mar 11, 2013)

This is tedious! O.k., just quickly...
No, because the notes are't that important, as you can see from the John Cage piece. Not a composition that relies on a melody. It relies on an IDEA, a concept. Anyone can do an ostinato. If you need Daniel's video to show you how to do a generic ostinato, you are looking in the wrong place. But it started to become about the specific "Batman" ostinatoes and idea. There is nothing -per se - to learn about playing a Dmin 16th note thing.
What Daniel was doing in the video was explaining how we did it specifically for "Batman', at a time when that style was appearing in more and more trailers and tv soundtracks. That's not music as a hobby. That's profiting from our success - and deminishing and diluting our idea by over-exposure and bad parodies. The idea exists within a context of the whole. If I had done exactly the same thing for a less successful movie, no one would bother temping it, or copying it...or Daniel making a video. Do you not get the concept or the context?
So, to answer your question from a different angle: Daniel took the video down because he's a nice guy with a sense of responsibillity - and he thinks it through. Plus, he makes great, original sounds himself, has lots of ideas, which are his creation, and he wouldn't want anyone to copy them for personal gain.
...And why did we release the Zebra2 thing with all the sounds? Because we where done with those 3 movies. There where no more sequels to come. I didn't have to protect the sound for our future. Sound in a composition like "Batman" is as important as composition.


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## Dan Mott (Mar 12, 2013)

Rctec @ Tue Mar 12 said:


> This is tedious! O.k., just quickly...
> No, because the notes are't that important, as you can see from the John Cage piece. Not a composition that relies on a melody. It relies on an IDEA, a concept. Anyone can do an ostinato. If you need Daniel's video to show you how to do a generic ostinato, you are looking in the wrong place. But it started to become about the specific "Batman" ostinatoes and idea. There is nothing -per se - to learn about playing a Dmin 16th note thing.
> What Daniel was doing in the video was explaining how we did it specifically for "Batman', at a time when that style was appearing in more and more trailers and tv soundtracks. That's not music as a hobby. That's profiting from our success - and deminishing and diluting our idea by over-exposure and bad parodies. The idea exists within a context of the whole. If I had done exactly the same thing for a less successful movie, no one would bother temping it, or copying it...or Daniel making a video. Do you not get the concept or the context?
> So, to answer your question from a different angle: Daniel took the video down because he's a nice guy with a sense of responsibillity - and he thinks it through. Plus, he makes great, original sounds himself, has lots of ideas, which are his creation, and he wouldn't want anyone to copy them for personal gain.
> ...And why did we release the Zebra2 thing with all the sounds? Because we where done with those 3 movies. There where no more sequels to come. I didn't have to protect the sound for our future. Sound in a composition like "Batman" is as important as composition.



Fair enough.


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## guitarman1960 (Mar 12, 2013)

Great explanation there from Hans.
The film music, trailer music community is a very small one in terms of the amount of people able to make a good living from it. Competition is incredibly fierce and those at the top of the game such as HZ quite rightly don't really want the market saturated with cheap versions of their exact trademark sound which has come from their imagination, their skills, and their years of experience and hard work, especially at the time of a major movie release.

I imagine there are a good mix of people on forums like this one, many hobbyists and beginners eager to learn stuff, and also many professionals who are in direct competition for work.

The Batman ostinato and synth arp sound is a great one, and it's only natural that many people would like to see exactly how it was done, no harm in that of course, but the problem is that there's a big difference between a hobbyist or beginner learning to recreate it for their own benefit in their home studio, and professional composers competing for work taking advantage of other peoples ideas and hard work.


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 12, 2013)

[quote="Darthmorphling @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:16 pm"
I have seen numerous people say quantization is bad and that everything needs to be played in. You then have a top name composer saying the opposite. So obviously, no one method is the correct one, and the more knowledge you have the better off you are. 

Don[/quote]

Mike and composers like him, are coming from a background that leads them to different compositional goals than someone like Hans. It is not surprising they would employ and therefore advise very different techniques to achieve them. 

Hans, all by himself, cannot create a score that sounds like John Williams. John Williams, all by himself, cannot create a score that sounds like Hans Zimmer. They are both terrific film scorers, so horses for courses.

I flatter myself than I can do a rather pale imitation of both, but that is all it would be, a pale imitation, and at this point of my life I have no interest in spending a great deal of time studying to do a better imitation of either. I just try to turn out the best Jay Asher score I can turn out.

But for a young composer, studying both is instructive.


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## Ryan (Mar 12, 2013)

Well. I'm just gonna say this! I just dig to see Zimmer him self replay to threads on this forum!!


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## guitarman1960 (Mar 12, 2013)

Yes, that is great. Much respect.


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## quantum7 (Mar 12, 2013)

Ryan @ Tue Mar 12 said:


> Well. I'm just gonna say this! I just dig to see Zimmer him self replay to threads on this forum!!



+1000!!! Over the last couple of years VI has become my favorite music forum....and lately with HZ chiming in every so often, even more so.


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## Darthmorphling (Mar 12, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Mar 12 said:


> Darthmorphling @ Mon Mar 11 said:
> 
> 
> > I have seen numerous people say quantization is bad and that everything needs to be played in. You then have a top name composer saying the opposite. So obviously, no one method is the correct one, and the more knowledge you have the better off you are.
> ...



This is why I love this forum. You have a broad range of people here, and for the most part, everyone is helpful. I have no ambitions of making a living at this as I love teaching, am over halfway to retirement, and have 5 kids to feed. However, being able to learn from everyone that provides insight is a benefit that many others do not get to experience in some other pursuits.

I find it great that many here give their time freely to answer questions from newbs like myself :D


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## MoonFlare (Mar 15, 2013)

Is it only me who thinks there is an aweful lot of fuzz just about some relatively simple ostinato patterns? I have background from electronic music. Such patterns (or arpeggios) are used all the time, and they also tend to be more complex than that in question. It's not some kind of magical thing going on! And ostinatos have been used by many composers before we were even born. Daniel did a really nice job of explaining exactly how to create them, but you could probably create just as good patterns if you try for yourself.


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## Dean (Mar 15, 2013)

MoonFlare @ Fri Mar 15 said:


> Is it only me who thinks there is an aweful lot of fuzz just about some relatively simple ostinato patterns? I have background from electronic music. Such patterns (or arpeggios) are used all the time, and they also tend to be more complex than that in question. It's not some kind of magical thing going on! And ostinatos have been used by many composers before we were even born. Daniel did a really nice job of explaining exactly how to create them, but you could probably create just as good patterns if you try for yourself.



here we go again. :roll: D


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## germancomponist (Mar 16, 2013)

Dean @ Sat Mar 16 said:


> here we go again. :roll: D



It seems that some people do not want to understand, nor even respect. This theme is nearly the same theme of what I was talking about in the other thread, what I started in Jul 26, 2011.


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## Dan Mott (Mar 16, 2013)

Daniel James @ Tue Mar 12 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Mon Mar 11 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think Dan's video was unfair at all. So confused as to why it would be unfair to see that stuff, considering that it was just ostinatos, playing notes that have been played a lot before and just synth stuff under it.
> ...



Just want to say, you do realise that you are not the only one that has done a Hans Zimmer copy cat video? There are tons of Hans Zimmer copy cats on YouTube. Do you think Hans is going to go around to each one and personally ask them to remove their videos off YouTube?

It all comes down to this. If I was a big time hollywood composer who has won many awards. Who gets to work with some of the best musicians and engineers. Who everyone aspires to sound like. Who makes a living off doing what they love. Who has created a certain sound everyone seems to go crazy over. Hell, even be able to quit working now and live in peace and freedom until They die, then mate.... If were Hans, I wouldn't give 2 monkeys anuses about your video. In fact, it would only make me feel better about my self that other people are so interested in what I do.


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## Kejero (Mar 16, 2013)

Come on guys. The man has already explained it pretty clearly... Imagine you create a specific sound, a texture, for a movie that's part of a trilogy. It's a texture that sonically defines the characters, the themes, the universe... But by the time the third installment of the series is released, your texture has been copied and butchered in dozens of knock-off or even entirely different projects (oh boy have I seen TDK-clone-music plugged into some totally misappropriate movies). The identity you're trying to create has been cloned and degraded. And people are now watching TDKR, and they obviously are like, 'yeah, cool sound, but we've heard it by now'.
How would you feel?

And naturally, TDK is more than just string 'ostinatos'. It's a combination of elements. A minimalistic texture perhaps, but a very recognisable one none the less.


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## Audun Jemtland (Mar 16, 2013)

I don't think there's any Zimmer "copycat" tutorial videos on youtube, at all. Only covers of his songs. The closest thing you'll get is video screen caps of the sequencer playing, showing no techniques or "how to's".
But as mentioned, that wasn't the point. The video itself was O.K, but not the specific content.

This was abit like my point in that "Trailers braaam rip off" thread. That trailer composers have taken a piece out of another movie to their advantage and "inspiration" and completely raped an original sound. As I said, the concept itself in that specific movie with that specific sound is truly unique and one of a kind. It has been done before, but not like THAT. It's an original sound,idea,cue,theme that no one can or should replicate. (to their own profit)


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## Lex (Mar 16, 2013)

Dan-Jay @ Sat Mar 16 said:


> It all comes down to this. If I was a big time hollywood composer who has won many awards. Who gets to work with some of the best musicians and engineers. Who everyone aspires to sound like. Who makes a living off doing what they love. Who has created a certain sound everyone seems to go crazy over. Hell, even be able to quit working now and live in peace and freedom until They die, then mate.... If were Hans, I wouldn't give 2 monkeys anuses about your video. In fact, it would only make me feel better about my self that other people are so interested in what I do.



But you are not, not even close. 
So until you become one, maybe you should actually try harder to understand what Zimmer and Dan are talking about, it might help you become what you are describing above, or at least help you stop talking nonsense. 

alex


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## Rctec (Mar 16, 2013)

Let's see...If you do it, and someone copies it, it probably has an effect on the livelyhood of just you. If that.
If I do it, the immediate effect is on the 10 to 20 or so people working closest with me. Then, of course, the musicians in the orchestra - another 68, and they are already in danger of getting less and less work (what do you think makes a greater dent in their possibility of earning a livelyhood - bad union contracts or being replaced by better and better sample libraries, with people like Dan showing you how to do it?). Then there are The film-makers themselves. 1000 people on that team. - does that sound about the right figure? Then, all the people at Warners. 2500? 5000, or so, worldwide. Oh, what about the theatre owners and their staff? Let's for the moment not forget the record company: If that stuff already exits in a cheap copy everywhere, if the originality of how it's tied to the context of the story gets more and more diluted by it being spread over all those other trailers and stories... what will that do to the sales of the soundtrack album, the movie - and ultimately, their families...There are consequences to everything. 
Start thinking!


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## Darthmorphling (Mar 16, 2013)

Dan-Jay

The horse is dead and been beaten, does anyone know how to contact Rick and Daryl so they can make sure the zombie horse is really dead?

Don


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## wst3 (Mar 17, 2013)

Rctec @ Sat Mar 16 said:


> Let's see...If you do it, and someone copies it, it probably has an effect on the livelyhood of just you. If that.
> If I do it, the immediate effect is on the 10 to 20 or so people working closest with me. Then, of course, the musicians in the orchestra - another 68, and they are already in danger of getting less and less work (what do you think makes a greater dent in their possibility of earning a livelyhood - bad union contracts or being replaced by better and better sample libraries, with people like Dan showing you how to do it?). Then there are The film-makers themselves. 1000 people on that team. - does that sound about the right figure? Then, all the people at Warners. 2500? 5000, or so, worldwide. Oh, what about the theatre owners and their staff? Let's for the moment not forget the record company: If that stuff already exits in a cheap copy everywhere, if the originality of how it's tied to the context of the story gets more and more diluted by it being spread over all those other trailers and stories... what will that do to the sales of the soundtrack album, the movie - and ultimately, their families...There are consequences to everything.
> Start thinking!



With all due respect to Hans and the incredibly talented folks on this forum...

You seriously under estimate yourself Hans! I know lots of folks that could mimic most of the sounds you create. I'm not sure they could create an exact replica, but they could get close.

BUT... I'm not sure they could create them in context. That is, one can create the signature sound from one of your scores, but they probably do not know why they need it, or where to place it to get the impact that you create. And that is the magic of a film score... not the mechanics that created any specific sound.

But let's go a step further... let's say they are working on a film project that is similar to one of your projects, and they copy your action sequence music to their action sequence... it won't have the same impact, because it won't be the same combination of visual and aural cues.

But hey, I'll go even further - lets say the blind squirrel finds the nut - they manage to place the music well enough to have some emotional connection to the visual. Chances are they are using sample libraries, and while I continue to be impressed with what one can do with libraries, they very rarely (very rarely) have the same emotional impact that a live recording has. And when they do (I love irony) it is more about the composition than the production.

See you do something that very few people can do - you marry audio to video, music and sounds to visuals, in a manner that is immediately accessible and effective. I wouldn't be terribly worried about copycats having an impact on you, or your work, or the people that you work with and/or for. I might be a bit naive, but I don't see someone becoming the next HZ without a lot more effort than simply copying your work.

Yes, I've been a fan since you were trotting the globe with a couple other guys making music that wasn't always cast in the 'standard' model of pop music. And I am a fan of your movie scores. And I wish you the best of good fortune as you continue to make interesting scores for interesting films. So I guess I am biased. I admire your humility as well, but in this case I think you may be over-estimating the competition, even Daniel, who has developed his own voice, and while I can see (hear?) some of his inspiration, he's not you, and that's a really good thing for everyone!

Thanks!

Bill - who was inspired - a LOT - by a guitar library released for the S900 a long time ago!


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## Audun Jemtland (Mar 17, 2013)

The point is that the original idea needs space to breathe BEFORE anyone takes it and ruins it. So it doesn't lose it's momentum and true potential.


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## Ed (Mar 17, 2013)

People will copy and steal, thats really the evolution of music. Its how people get started in music. When we start out most musicians and composers are going to be taking from the people they like. Someone like Hans Zimmer or Thomas Newman have a certain sound and style and its been ripped off in countless ways. I have no problems with someone showing people how these guys did some particular thing such as the Batman spicc pattern or whatever. But this is because they are impersonal to me. I know that if it were me I would feel bad if I spent a lot of time working on a particular sound for some movie series and people already rip me off shamelessly and someone was showing people how to do the exact same thing I was doing before the movie comes out. Then for months there'd be even more music out there that was even closer to the sound in the film. When people become personally attached to you I think you become more concerned with their feelings in this way, so when Hans contacted Dan, Dan felt sympathy for Hans' position. I think now we are able to talk to Hans on this forum directly I think we're all able to be more sympathetic. Its the same for everything really, we just care more when we more personally know someone.


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## quantum7 (Mar 17, 2013)

One thing is for sure- Hans must sure feel a pride in his work that so many discussions keep coming up about "the Hans Zimmer sound".


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 17, 2013)

Nevermind.


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## Dan Mott (Mar 17, 2013)

Ya know, this is how music evolves in every genre. Some talented guy or girl comes along and does something unique, it then becomes a trend for a certain amount of time. Then what happens? It dies off, much like how us humans die and no one will give a shit about us in 10 years or so after death and no one will know who we are. So if you are successful and everyone respects and looks up to you, Why care? when the inevitable will happen and you won't have a conscious of anything you did ever again. 

Perhaps I just think different to you guys. Man, if I was making shit loads of cash. I was well respected and successful and I could live in peace and freedom with my money till I die, then this small tiny tiny tiny tiny thing wouldn't give an elephants balls about.

Hans is Hans Zimmer for god sake. He is the man. No joke. No one can be like him or sound like him. All these copy cats everywhere? Meh, us musicians know how it all started, but the rest of the non musicians out there wouldn't even know any different and probably wouldn't even know who Hans Zimmer is. They simply wouldn't care.

I just think this is kinda weird. You probably think I'm weird, but Daniel's video shouldn't have ever been taken down. Completely unnecessary. That's my opinion and it won't change.

Peace out brothers


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## Lex (Mar 17, 2013)

Dan-Jay @ Sun Mar 17 said:


> So if you are successful and everyone respects and looks up to you, Why care? when the inevitable will happen and you won't have a conscious of anything you did ever again.



It has been explained why in great detail at least 3 times now. Do you ignore it or you lack the ability to understand it?

alex


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## Dan Mott (Mar 17, 2013)

Lex @ Mon Mar 18 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Sun Mar 17 said:
> 
> 
> > So if you are successful and everyone respects and looks up to you, Why care? when the inevitable will happen and you won't have a conscious of anything you did ever again.
> ...




*lack the ability to understand it*

That, because no one can sound like Hans. They can try, but still. I have't heard anything that has been close to THE DARK KNIGHT sound yet by anyone. I think it's safe to say that Hans and his team will be OK.


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## passenger57 (Mar 17, 2013)

As a big fan of 19th century music (you can guess from my profile pic) I've read several books that discuss a similar subject but in the Wagner era. 
Many composers, Mahler, Richard Strauss, Brukner and even early Arnold Schoenberg we're greatly influenced by Wagner and frequently imitated his style. But it took composers like Debussy to go the exact opposite direction - to make the climax of his opera a ppp instead of a fff. And eventually composers like Schoenberg broke from the Wagner gravitational field and created his own voice.
Anyway, point being, it's always important to learn from the masters of the day, but eventually you have to find your own voice or just end up, as Hans said in an interview, "another cow grazing in the field" - which I though was hilarious by the way
cheers


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## Dean (Mar 17, 2013)

A while back I composed a cue for the TDKR trailer,(for obvious reasons it had a very heavy TDK style and tone),but at the last moment HZ decided he was going to do the trailer himself,I was gutted but I understand why, thats his sound and not mine at all. 
Since then I've changed my approach when writing a trailer cue and dig alot deeper,..no DK/inception allowed,out with the lazy ostinatos,synth pulses etc,hence the last 3 or 4 cues I composed now have their own sound and clients are still very happy with them so its definitely possible to give clients what they want without doing the usual DK or Inception knockoffs. D


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## germancomponist (Mar 17, 2013)

Dean @ Sun Mar 17 said:


> Since then I've changed my approach when writing a trailer cue and dig alot deeper,..no DK/inception allowed,out with the lazy ostinatos,synth pulses etc,hence the last 3 or 4 cues I composed now have their own sound and clients are still very happy with them so its definitely possible to give clients what they want without doing the usual DK or Inception knockoffs. D



Great to read this!


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## Ed (Mar 17, 2013)

Dean @ Sun Mar 17 said:


> Since then I've changed my approach when writing a trailer cue and dig alot deeper,..no DK/inception allowed,out with the lazy ostinatos,synth pulses etc,



A good way to remember what it was like before is to check out trailers from before Batman and Inception :D


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## Rctec (Mar 17, 2013)

Dear Dean, I'm sorry your music wasn't used! It had nothing to do with your fine music - which was exactly what everyone expected us to do for that trailer. ...And that's why Chris and I thought it'd be nice to start with the mysterious vague, ambient, un-action piano thing, which was sort of anti-trailer convention. WB was very, very unsure (diplomatically speaking ) about that rather abstract idea. But - and you reminded me of the crux of the matter here -Chris and I kept telling them that once the ostinatos started, they where so recognisable that people would get that it was a "Batman" movie within one beat. So, thanks for inpiring us to turn the whole trailer thing on it's head , 'cause once that trailer was out, people loved it...


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## Ellywu2 (Mar 18, 2013)

I don't understand why some people are desperate to sound like someone else?

People imitate, that's human nature, but the beauty is taking that kernel of reference and making it your own. I don't want people to say 'Wow, that sounds like HZ, JW etc etc'. If they say that I've failed myself as an artist. I want people to say 'Wow, that is unique, such a Chris Elliott sound'. 

Also, sod the spic pattern. Oktoberfest Oompah for the next 'epic' sound please.


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## scientist (Mar 18, 2013)

Rctec @ Sun Mar 10 said:


> ...and the Brooomzwah (sp?)



i think you've earned the naming rights, so you can spell it however you'd like! may i suggest Brhaaaansz?



Ellywu2 @ Mon Mar 18 said:


> I don't understand why some people are desperate to sound like someone else?



it is frequently just client pressure, and the desire by composers to fill that apparently money-filled niche. especially in the case of film advertising, producers often just want the most immediate impact using whatever the latest "it" thing is. my own music got booted from the trailer for film i scored when i declined to "trailerize" it for the distributor.


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 18, 2013)

In the end, no matter the medium, you can only be as original as your client will accept you being because your music is not their primary focus, selling the product is. In the film/TV world it is possible to develop a relationship with the guy who makes the final call (director or producer) and if you have established a certain level of trust you may be able to push the envelope. 

In the jingle world, I know this is far less true because there are 40 guys chiming in (NYC, care to speak to this?)

I have only scored 1 trailer and the only direction I was given was "operatic" so I had considerable freedom, but I am surmising that in the trailer world, it is rarely possible to push the envelope. I mean if WB gave Hans some crap about it, what do they do with people with less clout?


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## Dan Mott (Mar 18, 2013)

If only all your clients weren't so close minded about having a specific sound. Perhaps then we would hear many different types of trailer music.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Mar 18, 2013)

Dan,

I think your views are a little naive because you are not thinking of a lot of other things that a working professional has to do.

Hans works really hard on his scores. Believe me, its extremely difficult and nerve-wracking to work on a big budget film with all eyes on you. I am working as an additional composer on a super hero film right now which is probably going to be one of the biggest films in India this year. And, yes we do spend a lot of time trying to solve problems, come up with new stuff while still maintaining the super-hero legacy so to speak. There are a lot of people involved who work long hours everyday to make this stuff happen. 

Safe to say, what Hans does is on a gigantic scale right from the idea to the execution. But, we do the best with what we can. If you have the budget - great! If not, you make it work the best way possible but you keep working till it sounds great.

Perhaps, it is more important to be original today than in any other time because once you create something, copycats rise to the occasion very quickly. 

He experiments and creates wonderful music for his films with a bunch of other people. 

They are all part of a team and as the leader of the clan as such he wants to protect his team including himself from anything that will undermine their hard work.

I would be a bit disappointed if people started lifting music from the film we are working on right now. It would mean that all the people who had been working on the film, right from the guy who is transcribing, assisting, mixing and performing on the score would feel cheated. There are a lot of people. We have weak copyright laws in India and so it could be doubly hurting!

We have a small team but Hans has so many people on his team because you need a large talented team to make this kind of massive thing work!

Hans is also sort of a visionary. He is trying to experiment all the time and in doing that, he is setting up a standard for himself and the industry. For that matter, a lot of film composers have done and continue to do so. 

It makes the whole process much more interesting, fun and prestigious. It has value. There is a thought. And you would always want to protect some part of it for yourself and your team. 

People who are not part of such a process, will not understand because they have nothing of such high value to loose. They do not have a team who they will feel responsible for. 

It's easy to say that one should not care but perhaps if you had written one of the most successful and popular soundtracks in the history of film music, the perspective might be slightly different.


Tanuj.


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## Dean (Mar 18, 2013)

Rctec @ Sun Mar 17 said:


> Dear Dean, I'm sorry your music wasn't used! It had nothing to do with your fine music - which was exactly what everyone expected us to do for that trailer. ...And that's why Chris and I thought it'd be nice to start with the mysterious vague, ambient, un-action piano thing, which was sort of anti-trailer convention. WB was very, very unsure (diplomatically speaking ) about that rather abstract idea. But - and you reminded me of the crux of the matter here -Chris and I kept telling them that once the ostinatos started, they where so recognisable that people would get that it was a "Batman" movie within one beat. So, thanks for inpiring us to turn the whole trailer thing on it's head , 'cause once that trailer was out, people loved it...



Thanks Hans,I'm glad to hear that at least the cue inspired a new direction for the trailer,..it also lead to me rethinking my whole approach when composing trailers.

Re trailer composition:
I think if you work really hard and put alot of thought into the process you really dont have to fall back on the old string ostinato DK thing.
A great theme/tone or sound will blow any old ostinato out of the water,there are many other ways to drive and sustain a cue,it just takes alot more work and imagination.D


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