# Mixing synth elements with orchestra, need your help...



## wlotz (Jul 19, 2013)

hey guys,

I was wondering if someone here could help me and answer some questions regarding mixing synths with orchestra (hybrid). I remember reading a cool pdf Alex Pfeffer posted the other day regarding some compositional tips and tricks. One of them was about mixing non orchestral instruments with orchestra:



> if you add other ensembles to an orchestra like a rockband or a lot of synthiestuff, compress
> and limit the rockband like hell to leave space and dynamic range for the orchestra.


What I'm wondering is whether it applies to synths as well, for example low bases or sub bases. How do you normally treat this kind of elements? Do you position it on the virtual stage or in the same room as the orchestra? (reverb). When it comes to panning - do you always put low bases in the middle and narrow it as you normally do in the rock/pop productions? It's pretty much the same kind of questions when it comes to higher elements - how do you treat them in terms of reverb, compression and stage placement?

I've noticed that quite a lot of synthy elements is being placed in front of everything, feels a bit closer and louder with the orchestra being in the background and synths much more dry. Is this the way you do it or it's more a matter of taste (as with music in general 

Many thanks,
W


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jul 21, 2013)

Here is a post from my Facebook Cinesonique page:

I am just copy-pasting it here because it runs along the same lines and I just happened to post it there recently. 

I am not an expert, there are far better people than me present on this forum and may be they can add/subtract to this:

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I have been getting a lot of questions about how to create hybrid tracks and do a nice mix. While, I am not an expert at this by any means, here are a few pointers for beginners who might find it a little difficult at first.

First of all, there are so many variables that in the end this is a lot about personal taste and what sort of hybrid elements you will be bringing into a track. I am going to just say a few things about electronic sounds used in parallel with orchestral sounds. 

The most important thing is the writing once again. No manner of processing or mixing skills will save a poorly composed track without thought. So, you want to spend time thinking about what you are writing. Have a concept. Let a basic idea lead you into it and then spend time creating your sounds. Do not rush into anything. If you train yourself hard and long, eventually you will be able to design custom sounds even on deadline jobs as most of us have to deal with this problem. 

I suppose the above mentioned point is true for any kind of music really. But where it gets specific is how you are using the orchestra and the electronic sounds. You still need to think about orchestration, first at a micro level as in between the various orchestral instruments and then the electronic stuff - which will mostly likely be a mix of synth percussion, bass, transition fx, rises and other undefined sounds that you are yet to create! 

A hybrid track does not have to be epic - that is not the definition of it. Do not smash the dynamics and kill your track that you so lovingly composed.

Once you have the micro level sorted, move onto the macro. Think about the balances between Orchestra, Synth Bass, High Arps, Mid Arps, Fx Transition sounds, Synth Percussion, Acoustic Percussion and all other manner of sounds that you will use.

You also need to make a calculated decision about what sort of low end you will need (focus on this word - need) to create your track. If you are using a synth bass, think about the fact whether or not you need a double bass in the arrangement? I avoid it but sometimes, I filter the low end on it and keep it for its texture. 

Think of the extreme ranges of the audio spectrum as just that - extended ranges used rarely for colour and ornamentation just like in orchestral instruments. When you write a melody which is more favourable in the range of the Cello then writing it on a very low part of the violins may not sound that good - depending on the effect you are going for. 

Similarly, cut off a lot of your unwanted low end and the high end as well. Do yourself a favour and do not aurally assault the listeners. A hybrid track need not be piercing and give you a headache or ear fatigue. 

I almost always mono the bass frequencies specially for complex, louder hybrid tracks (something I learned relatively recently from another forum member - Mathazzar). Use some of the plug ins that are available to do this either on Bus tracks or the Master channel. 

Why this is different than simply making the entire bass track mono? Well, it so happens that a lot of time, there is other important stereo information even in bass tracks or other low end instruments. Take for example a bass arp with a filtered delay. While this will give you a nice low end, the filtered delay will add the moving part on the top end - you don't want to get rid of that pulsating high end. So, clearly in this case its better to target the low frequencies only.

Use reverb with caution. It is a very nice feeling to make something lush but don't that feeling to far. You don't want to have a mash of all the sounds. Some synths behave nicely if you pass them with the same reverbs as the orchestra - most don't in my experience. So try to match them (or not) using other settings and do not overload your reverb bus with 50 sends going into it. 

Think about how hard you are hitting your reverb and what is the size of the space? The harder you hit it, the more excited it will get. So think about that. Experiment with different settings.

Remember to eq almost every synth track and look for unwanted frequencies. For example, many synth patches have low end information even though you are playing stuff way up on the keyboard. So, make sure you put a filter on most of those sounds. They build up in the end and eat up your dynamic range.

Percussion and synth - absolutely you can compress the hell out of them. But also remember most of the samples we use are already recorded through high end gear and processed with a built in reverb from the hall or studio they recorded it in. So, you want to be careful. Do not add Early Reflections to samples that already have them. A little tail wont be a problem though - again if you need it!

Clearly define what the synths and the orchestra are doing and when they lead or take back seat. You do not want everyone fighting to do the same thing. 

When you introduce the orchestra as the main part, ask the synths to give the accompaniment. Just like you would do in an orchestral situation. And its true the other way round as well!

Filter your reverb channels to avoid low end build up and high ringing. Or do this before you send it to your reverbs or any other method that you may be using.

Stereo expander works well but make sure most of this is first achieved as best with your panning, stereo width control and reverbs. Isolate the sounds to where you need them to be. 

Use true stereo reverbs. Make sure your panning plug in is a stereo panner. 

Don't worry about loudness and punch from the start. Begin writing with a clear head with very decent levels. Mine will peak at around -6 or -8 before I add anything to the master. 

Make sure the sounds are punchy at the start before you master everything. The mastering is not going to add that much punch, its the arrangement, orchestration, compression on individual tracks or eq etc. 

Mastering is more of an enhancing process. 

Do not choose poor samples and think that processing will save you. You cannot always add too much of what is not there in the first place. Think about what samples are suitable for the problem at hand. If you need to process something too much where it looses its quality, then choose something else. Its a lot about problem solving. 

Listen to certain other recordings that you like for the mix and learn from it. The most problematic frequencies for me are anything between 1 Khz to 3.5 Khz, 20 Hz-250 Hz, between 6 Khz and 10 Khz. This is just from the top of my head right now. Every situation is unique and asks that you look at every little detail. I do not listen to anything while composing because I want to stay away from other things as much as possible. I will then prepare individual tracks and pull them into a new project where I will critically focus on the mixing aspects and needs of the track. As composers, we have a tendency to overdo many effects. A fresh project allows you to be surgical with a more objective point of view because you are not writing anymore. You are in a different creative zone. 

In the end, hire a really good engineer if you can - that's better than scratching your head over so many things. But these techniques are important because for hybrid tracks, this is very much part of the process of composing itself.

And remember its not always about WHAT you use but HOW you use it!

Please feel free to disregard anything that you do not agree with. I am not an expert of any of these topics. This is just what I do and I thought I would share my thoughts in one place which some of the people who have been asking can refer to. This is not a complete list or set of rules for you. Its more an over all view on the process. Do not let rules guide you but you must respect the audio protocol and adhere to the standards in a way that is creative and musical!


Tanuj.


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## AlexRuger (Jul 21, 2013)

That was great, Tanuj. Thanks!


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## Arbee (Jul 21, 2013)

Thanks for sharing these thoughts Tanuj, something I struggle with and think about constantly. Despite your modesty I suspect you are quickly becoming an "expert". Isn't it true that when you pull apart the best massive sounding hybrid tracks, you find massive sounds but applied to very simple, clean orchestration/arrangements. Composers during the past 50 years have certainly had a lot to learn with so much sonic variety suddenly available!

.


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## wlotz (Jul 22, 2013)

Wow, I couldn't get a more detailed reply :mrgreen: Thanks a lot Tanuj! It not only aswers all my questions, it makes me thinking about the whole process of composing this kind of tracks. And I agree with Arbee Sir, you're definitely too modest but it's not a bad thing on the other hand as it's a very rare thing these days :mrgreen:


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## wlotz (Jul 22, 2013)

just one quick question:



vibrato @ Sun Jul 21 said:


> I almost always mono the bass frequencies specially for complex, louder hybrid tracks (something I learned relatively recently from another forum member - Mathazzar). Use some of the plug ins that are available to do this either on Bus tracks or the Master channel.


could you please recommend some of those plugins? Do you use this technique for synth intruments or low freqs in general?

Thanks a lot!
W


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jul 22, 2013)

Brainworx has some really good stuff. 

But you need to learn to how to use them first. So spend enough time understanding what the plug ins are capable of.

Glad you found some of the advice helpful! 


Best,

Tanuj.


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## wlotz (Jul 23, 2013)

Thanks again Tanuj, it's all very helpful mate! I hope you don't mind me asking you one more question (completely forgot to ask about it earlier). You said that most of the time you mono the bass freqs. Let's say you use the low synth to support the low end instead of a double bass. How would you pan it - would you keep it centred? If you wanted to use it in conjunction with a double bass, would you pan it to the right where the db usually sits or still keep it in the middle?

Thanks a lot!
W


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jul 23, 2013)

Wlotz,

I always keep the main synth bass centered and mono the bass frequencies only.

If you had a synth part with a high pass filter delay that is giving stereo movement, you would not want to make the whole thing mono - just the bass frequencies. 

This is possible using many plug ins such as the ones from Brainworx.

In the end, I will put it on the Master track so in theory, it will make any frequencies below a certain cut off frequency (that you can select) mono leaving rest of the information stereo.

In this way, you can globally just make all the frequencies below a certain range, centered without affecting the higher side which gives you the important stereo information.

I believe there is little point to keep anything below 100-150 in stereo (in my experience but a top engineer will know better)

On a master this will apply to percussion, synths, orchestra - any other instrument creating those frequencies.

I believe, this gives you more head room and a clean low end balanced low end. 

Bass frequencies are believed to be more omni directional but to the human ear, this stops around 200 Hz. It is not usually possible to tell if a sound was stereo or mono below those frequencies by humans. 

So, a mono cut off at 150 or even higher depending on the track does not affect the response in any way but good. It keeps it all balanced and not focused on any particular stereo field - left or right. 

This way the human ear can localize where the instrument is but it does not affect the low end spectrum of the entire track and managing the bass is easier and precise. 

So, in the end if you had a double bass part as well as a synth bass - as long as both of them are not clashing at the same frequency point composition wise, its fine. You can just mono them globally and you have the localization as well as the clean mono low end. 

But to go further, Zimmer uses Celli and Bass on the left as well - famously, he also used violins to the right in Batman Begins I believe. 

This is to keep the stereo field balanced for certain kind of writing.

Listen to the Bane suite, there is a lot going on there and I think its not a classic case of setting up the orchestra. They put them in a circle and recorded the strings. Watch the making. I have the blu-ray so I got a pretty good idea on my 55-inch Tv! 

There are no set rules if you are not writing in a traditional manner so feel free to move your orchestra around - its called Hybrid for a reason 


Best,

Tanuj.


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## wlotz (Jul 23, 2013)

Quality stuff Sir! Really appreciate all your help :D

Thanks a lot!
W


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