# Tips on improving my epic percussions?



## Jonas.Ingebretsen (Mar 16, 2014)

Hello.

I have always lacked a bit on the percussion-side of my songs. I really want to make the percussion fit in more nicely as I feel that the drums are almost drowning into the mix. Anyone got any tips on how to make them larger then life and "glueing" them in more nicely?

Drums at: *2:24*
https://soundcloud.com/jonasingebretsen ... ey-11-di-l


----------



## The Darris (Mar 16, 2014)

Less reverb and use a touch of close mics if available. Keep fast passages played by mid to high timbre'd percussion samples and more impact oriented accented hits to the lower registered percussion. Don't copy and paste your parts, this will avoid sounding repeated. If you want the same groove happening, make some minor variations to the fast parts which will help mitigate redundancy in your lines.


----------



## G.E. (Mar 16, 2014)

For epic tracks you need to combine the close mics with the tree mics in order to get them to stand out more.Forget about traditional orchestral positioning.If you own Hans Zimmer percussion by any chance,study these midi files which RiffWraith so kindly shared with us :D

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... light=hz01

See how he adjusted the volume levels and what mic combinations he used.


----------



## Jonas.Ingebretsen (Mar 17, 2014)

I'm using Cinepercs (all of them). And for some reason when I try to enable the close mics it mutes the other mics (?)

The sound of HZ library is sick, I don't know if I'll be able to create something like that with cineperc..


----------



## G.E. (Mar 17, 2014)

Jonas.Ingebretsen @ Mon Mar 17 said:


> I'm using Cinepercs (all of them). And for some reason when I try to enable the close mics it mutes the other mics (?)
> 
> The sound of HZ library is sick, I don't know if I'll be able to create something like that with cineperc..



It's supposed to do that.Conflicting channels will automatically mute to avoid phasing issues and only certain combinations will work.(close,overhead and mid should work together just fine)I think the Dennis Sands full mix is a combination of all the different mics so you also have the close mics in there.

You should be able to get great results with Cineperc.It's a great series and I plan on getting Cineperc as well, eventually.


----------



## Ryan (Mar 17, 2014)

First off. I think this topic is more about mixing then programing drums... 

I had a listen and the first thing I can hear is that you need to make room for the instruments. Start with some eq, comp etc... Do some reading upon where the respective instruments frq-responses are. 

After that there's time for your drum-programing . Because then it will fit the WHOLE sound-picture much better.

Best of luck! 
Ryan


----------



## paulmatthew (Mar 17, 2014)

To go along with what Ryan said , you can also pick up a Spectrotone Chart (around $20) from Alexander Publishing , or it is included in Visual Orchestration 1. It is a comprehensive diagram covering the orchestral instruments , the key ranges of each instrument can be found in and the frequency range of each instrument in Hz . This can help with eqing , mixing and putting instruments together as well. It is a good tool to have handy for reference for anyone working with orchestral instruments.

Disclaimer******I am in no way affiliated with Alexander Publishing . I am merely a user of their products , predominantly the Visual Orchestration Series and Scoring Stages Series.


----------



## Jonas.Ingebretsen (Mar 17, 2014)

Thanks guys. 

I've been fiddling around with the mix and I've managed to create some interesting results by making room for the drums. 

However, for this track I have a sub bass synth playing along with the strings. The larger percussions are colliding with it and I believe that's what makes it "drown". Is there any way to have both in the mix? I've thought about properly learning Parallel Compression and especially Side Chaining as I think side chaining will fix my problem (?)


----------



## Ryan (Mar 18, 2014)

Side-Chaining is your friend. Do some searches on youtube Dance/dub-step and + Side Chaining. Its the same principal but a different genre. 

I always run synth/bass on SC.


----------



## Rctec (Mar 18, 2014)

I always put the perc in last, but I write and orchestrate everything else knowing what perc I want to use and intimately knowing my sounds - and what I want the perc to do. Which means leaving lots of head-room in the rest of the piece. If I put perc in too early, I will not spend any time getting a subtle and wellcrafted track - perc at a "Zimmer" level marks all sorts of mistakes in the orchestration that you then don't hear until its played on a big screen with a huge, proper, theatre soundsystem, with you dying in front of your friends.
It takes me forever to program a good perc track. I remember spending a whole week on the "Jack Sparrow" suite in "Pirates", just trying to get it to sit well in the track and not get boring or overwhelming.
Since most of my perc is recorded at AIR, I have a whole load of baked-in reverb (Which drives Steve Lipson crazy, but Alan - who does my more "epic" scores, loves). I can control the mics in my sampler, but I love the sound of the room more than the close-mics. But obvious one trick that helps to preserve clarity is to move the far mics and out-riggers forward in time and line all the transients up. I know that's impossible in nature - that time is determined by the distance of one mic to the other - but it still gives me a huge sound without getting all that flammy transient shit. Plus, rather than compressing the drums, I use AHDSRs to basically make a transient designer, and tailor the releases. This works a lot better than compression or gating, since it's not amplitude dependent.
The other thing is, line your tracks up properly. All engineers I work with spend the majority of their time making sure all the note-starts are really together. That's where the power is.
I try not to double too many hits. just get the one great drum, and don't mess up it's frequency spectrum with another one blurring the tone. 
I like copying patterns, but I make sure there is enough 'round-robin' stuff going on. Most good 'real' percussionists don't throw a bunch of variation into a take. They play the part - even if its a one-bar loop for the whole piece. But the subtle variation in tone from each hit makes it just interesting enough.
Watch out that your high end isn't too bright. It's cheesy (as are cymbal rolls, belltrees, etc.) and is the antithesis of big and epic.

I never cut the bottom end on my perc. If it really is a problem, I let the dubbing engineer deal with it - usually he wants more low end, since a good theatre system - like IMAX - will extend pretty low (I just had all my synth modified so that they go down to 10 hz. most of them rolled off at about 35...)

But orchestration is mixing...

-Hz-


----------



## Ryan (Mar 18, 2014)

Rctec @ 18/3/2014 said:


> I always put the perc in last, but I write and orchestrate everything else knowing what perc I want to use and intimately knowing my sounds - and what I want the perc to do. Which means leaving lots of head-room in the rest of the piece. If I put perc in too early, I will not spend any time getting a subtle and wellcrafted track - perc at a "Zimmer" level marks all sorts of mistakes in the orchestration that you then don't hear until its played on a big screen with a huge, proper, theatre soundsystem, with you dying in front of your friends.
> It takes me forever to program a good perc track. I remember spending a whole week on the "Jack Sparrow" suite in "Pirates", just trying to get it to sit well in the track and not get boring or overwhelming.
> Since most of my perc is recorded at AIR, I have a whole load of baked-in reverb (Which drives Steve Lipson crazy, but Alan - who does my more "epic" scores, loves). I can control the mics in my sampler, but I love the sound of the room more than the close-mics. But obvious one trick that helps to preserve clarity is to move the far mics and out-riggers forward in time and line all the transients up. I know that's impossible in nature - that time is determined by the distance of one mic to the other - but it still gives me a huge sound without getting all that flammy transient shit. Plus, rather than compressing the drums, I use AHDSRs to basically make a transient designer, and tailor the releases. This works a lot better than compression or gating, since it's not amplitude dependent.
> The other thing is, line your tracks up properly. All engineers I work with spend the majority of their time making sure all the note-starts are really together. That's where the power is.
> ...



Jonas Ingebretsen: Now, you were lucky. All the great!! 

HZ: Nice reading, as always.


----------



## Jonas.Ingebretsen (Mar 18, 2014)

That was a very informative read Hans Zimmer. You even touched upon a couple of things that I apparently was doing wrong with my percs.

I'll delve myself into Side Chaining and AHDSRs and hopefully I'll post some new results today.


----------



## mgtube (Mar 18, 2014)

This might be just me but I tend to mix several instruments together (Damage, HZ Perc and Zebra in my case) to get some nice "cut through the mix" epic drums. My thing is just combining them and panning them in order to achieve a bigger sound.

I usually also slap on some DrMS in order to widen things a little and make the different patterns cut through.

Here's an illustration if you're interested (https://www.dropbox.com/s/5c90roacyeaydw7/Starcube_Intro_0.9.wav). It isn't exactly on par stylistically with your track but it might give you some ideas.

o-[][]-o


----------



## emid (Mar 18, 2014)

Thank you very much Mr. Hans. You have solved so many queries in you reply. Words coming from master are genuine and authentic...verily!


----------



## gsilbers (Mar 18, 2014)

Ryan @ Mon Mar 17 said:


> First off. I think this topic is more about mixing then programing drums...
> 
> I had a listen and the first thing I can hear is that you need to make room for the instruments. Start with some eq, comp etc... Do some reading upon where the respective instruments frq-responses are.
> 
> ...



^^^^ditto. ^^^^^


also the mix seems to have ran out of head room on the last part. since the part w drums comes after a little break then you dont have to crack it all the way to be louder than the previouw section/buildup. 

maybe try mixing again using k-meter or try hitting -6db as the max top (0db) instead of 0. 

or make subgroups and lower everything minus drums?


----------



## Jonas.Ingebretsen (Mar 18, 2014)

Gsilbers, thank you for your input. That's a very good way of creating more headroom for my percs. o=< 

I added Parallel compression to the large percussion instruments. It seems to really louden the tail though...


----------



## mgtube (Mar 18, 2014)

Jonas.Ingebretsen @ Wed Mar 19 said:


> Gsilbers, thank you for your input. That's a very good way of creating more headroom for my percs. o=<
> 
> I added Parallel compression to the large percussion instruments. It seems to really louden the tail though...



I see all your tracks are centered. Have you tried playing around with the panning a bit?


----------



## mgtube (Mar 18, 2014)

Jonas.Ingebretsen @ Wed Mar 19 said:


> Gsilbers, thank you for your input. That's a very good way of creating more headroom for my percs. o=<
> 
> I added Parallel compression to the large percussion instruments. It seems to really louden the tail though...



I see all your tracks are centered. Have you tried playing around with the panning a bit?


----------



## Jonas.Ingebretsen (Mar 18, 2014)

They are all panned seperately. And most libs are prepanned. These stems are mostly to give me the ability to export seperately and adjust sections with ease. 

I'm also curious to know which large percussions are used the most by other composers, which ones are your favorites? I'm in love with my Surdos, as I don't think I have anything else that gives me that larger than life sound for these type of tracks.


*EDIT:*
Here is a new update. I tried to give it more headroom by lowering the rest of the orchestra.
*V.0: http://soundtracks.no/mp3/Epic_Percussions_002.mp3*


----------



## H.R. (Mar 19, 2014)

Many thanks to Hans. You improved my knowledge a lot sir!


----------



## Rctec (Mar 19, 2014)

I use Surdos instead of toms all the time. You just have to find the right one's...It's quite tough. But, honestly, why don't you do your own samples? To rent a load of percussion for a day is a lot cheaper than buying those libraries, I think. (I know, I'm doing myself out of business with my Perc Library - except, it's not a lot cheaper to get those, players, Hall, engineers...) But if it's just a bit of epic perc, why not make it yourself? The other thing is...you'll learn so much about the instruments when you have to study them from a sampling perspective. It really helps with programming/orchestration ideas!
-H-


----------



## Daniel James (Mar 19, 2014)

Rctec @ Tue Mar 18 said:


> The other thing is, line your tracks up properly. All engineers I work with spend the majority of their time making sure all the note-starts are really together. That's where the power is.
> I try not to double too many hits. just get the one great drum, and don't mess up it's frequency spectrum with another one blurring the tone.



I agree totally with the first point, having things lined up does help create a more powerful impact. 

I personally disagree with your second statement here but I think its a personal preference. I layer drums all the time, I have never seen it as blurring the tone of a single drum as apposed to creating a different overall percussion sound. I mean if you want your perc section to sound for example like Toms, then layering it with a taiko will make it sound less Tomish (a word?) however the combination will have its own tone and sound which can cover a bit more ground sonically...leading to a beefier tone IMO.

-DJ


----------



## Rctec (Mar 19, 2014)

Yes, Daniel, I forgot that very often my samples are already 3 percussionists "deep" - three guys hitting Surdos, for instance...so they where 'naturally' tripled... All my timps are really 3 timps played simultaneously , but spread out across the whole room, which gives a great stereo image, and I like the slight chorusing in pitch. But - because the guys I work with are so great - there are no flams. They are spot-bollocks on. And, of course, there are no fast rules. I agree with your thing about colour - I do it all the time - but if you have the 'Perfect' hit, don't cover it up. Plus, so much stuff is just a build-up of muddy frequencies these days...


----------



## G.R. Baumann (Mar 19, 2014)

Rctec @ Tue Mar 18 said:


> I (I just had all my synth modified so that they go down to 10 hz...)



>8o WOW! =o We urgently need a subwoofer smiley here.

I'd love to learn more about that modification process, how that was achieved with your synths. 

I mean we are talking about the 10Hz-15Hz range, Good Lord. :lol: 

The DTS-10 can do that!

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/subwoofers/specialty-subs/dts10/


----------



## Daniel James (Mar 19, 2014)

Rctec @ Wed Mar 19 said:


> Yes, Daniel, I forgot that very often my samples are already 3 percussionists "deep" - three guys hitting Surdos, for instance...so they where 'naturally' tripled... All my timps are really 3 timps played simultaneously , but spread out across the whole room, which gives a great stereo image, and I like the slight chorusing in pitch. But - because the guys I work with are so great - there are no flams. They are spot-bollocks on. And, of course, there are no fast rules. I agree with your thing about colour - I do it all the time - but if you have the 'Perfect' hit, don't cover it up. Plus, so much stuff is just a build-up of muddy frequencies these days...



Yeah layering can give you some terrible mud...occasionally I don't mind the mud that much in the larger cues....it kind of adds a little bit of 'dirt' to a track....if its making everything sound shit though then of course the EQ comes out but it always depends on the track, and what you decide sounds shit or not. 

I tend to layer instruments that have a specific strength with others that complaint it well...IE Drums of War has a nice thud which I layer with 8dio Taiko because of its body sound then 8dio epic dhol/tom for the tom shimmer/crack sound. The overall sound of layering in that way is a much larger and define perc sound than I would have achieved with one of those libraries alone but I fully understand what you mean about if you have that perfect hit already why hide it! haha I guess I unfortunately havn't found a perfect drum sound yet without layering a bunch up!

"They are spot-bollocks on" - This is now my favorite Hans Zimmer quote.

-DJ


----------



## Jonas.Ingebretsen (Mar 19, 2014)

Rctec @ Wed Mar 19 said:


> I use Surdos instead of toms all the time. You just have to find the right one's...It's quite tough. But, honestly, why don't you do your own samples? To rent a load of percussion for a day is a lot cheaper than buying those libraries, I think. (I know, I'm doing myself out of business with my Perc Library - except, it's not a lot cheaper to get those, players, Hall, engineers...) But if it's just a bit of epic perc, why not make it yourself? The other thing is...you'll learn so much about the instruments when you have to study them from a sampling perspective. It really helps with programming/orchestration ideas!
> -H-



Creating my own custom samples has never crossed my mind, I've always thought of it to be really expensive, though it makes kind of sense for certin instruments, as for me it would be the Surdos.  


I've included another example where I've used my percussions more extensively. It's pretty much the same template. What you hear is Snares, Bass Drum 28", and Surdos. I've continued to create more headroom for the larger percussions. Next step is trying out Side Chaining.

*Entire orchestra:*
http://soundtracks.no/mp3/VI/Epic_Percussions_ex2__full_001.mp3 (http://soundtracks.no/mp3/VI/Epic_Percu ... ll_001.mp3)

*Percussions only:*
http://soundtracks.no/mp3/VI/Epic_Percussions_ex2__onlyperc_001.mp3 (http://soundtracks.no/mp3/VI/Epic_Percu ... rc_001.mp3)


----------



## Simplesly (Mar 19, 2014)

This is a great discussion, guys. Something I've always wondered is if using percs with baked in hall along with close mics (sampled well and mixed by a pro) will achieve A bigger sound with better headroom than using a dry sample and reverb sends. I always figured if you balanced the wet send/dry signal well enough you would get about the same results as using baked in samples. When doing tracks for the BF contest I noticed when layering over the existing HZ percs I was still able to get a big sound without using up all the dynamic range in my mix. I have a harder time when using my mostly dry stuff on my own, with sends.


----------



## JohnG (Mar 19, 2014)

Christian from Spitfire prepared this video on how to improve epic percussion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqkkuVDzpXE&feature=player_embedded (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqkkuVD ... r_embedded)


----------



## Jonas.Ingebretsen (Mar 19, 2014)

JohnG @ Wed Mar 19 said:


> Christian from Spitfire prepared this video on how to improve epic percussion:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqkkuVDzpXE&feature=player_embedded (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqkkuVD ... r_embedded)



Thanks for that. I'm really enjoying this video.

People seem to favor HZ percs, I'm tempted to sacrifice my wallet for it and another SSD. :lol:


----------



## Waywyn (Mar 19, 2014)

Awesome thread!
Basically everything has been said before, but one personal tiny arrangement approach I would like to mention:

Try to approach your percussions as a rhythm string section. Meaning, trying to use the small percussions for the very fast stuff as you would have violins to play the fast arpeggios or ostinatos while going for more "groovy" stuff with the mid section (as you would do with violins/violas and/or cellis) and accents for the low/deep percussions (celli and dbass).

Of course it doesn't always work like this but helps a lot most of the time, since you don't slam everything to death and start to focus a bit on the arrangemt side of percussions.


----------



## AR (Mar 20, 2014)

I had this funny experience one month ago. For the Bleeding Fingers competition I wanned a nice tambourin. ...went through all my sample libs, but couldn't find the right one with a "in-between" pitch. So, I got my drummer in front of a few mics (I think 4 or so) and guess what. The overhead mic recordings sounded even like was playing a high timpani. It sounded so epic, it could've been a bodhran or so.


----------



## Rv5 (Apr 12, 2014)

Rctec @ Wed Mar 19 said:


> I use Surdos instead of toms all the time. You just have to find the right one's...It's quite tough. But, honestly, why don't you do your own samples? To rent a load of percussion for a day is a lot cheaper than buying those libraries, I think. (I know, I'm doing myself out of business with my Perc Library - except, it's not a lot cheaper to get those, players, Hall, engineers...) But if it's just a bit of epic perc, why not make it yourself? The other thing is...you'll learn so much about the instruments when you have to study them from a sampling perspective. It really helps with programming/orchestration ideas!
> -H-



I came to love the Surdos after using them by default for a track - they were sitting in my uni's music tech office and they looked welcoming... unfortunately there weren't any good mallets!! 



Jonas.Ingebretsen @ Wed Mar 19 said:


> Creating my own custom samples has never crossed my mind, I've always thought of it to be really expensive, though it makes kind of sense for certin instruments, as for me it would be the Surdos.



I would also highly recommend hiring out some percussion - I hired a 60inch and a 36 inch Taiko from Bell Perc in London (they look similar to the ones recorded for the HZ percussion sessions - perhaps the same ones).

It was a fair price for the weekend, delivered and collected. But what I got from it was such a cool experience - the players loved it, the sound of these things when you hit them, wowzers they filled the room. At the hire place, it was like a cave of percussion greatness and certainly after using the live taikos I'll be doing a session to make my own samples with the interesting and vast array of odds and ends they have there. What was nice using the recording (also recorded some individual hits) was that it sounded unique because of course, it was. 

However some elements let it down, starting with my percussion writing skills! More ambient micing would have been nice and the players weren't percussion players... but the experience was rich. You can hear (and see) the result here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_ayYdmJios



Jonas.Ingebretsen @ Mon Mar 17 said:


> Hello.
> 
> I have always lacked a bit on the percussion-side of my songs. I really want to make the percussion fit in more nicely as I feel that the drums are almost drowning into the mix. Anyone got any tips on how to make them larger then life and "glueing" them in more nicely?
> 
> ...



Gosh what a lovely track!


----------



## Jonas.Ingebretsen (Apr 14, 2014)

RV5: Very cool video. Thanks for sharing that!


----------

