# Embedding loops into samples?



## Mike Greene (Jun 20, 2014)

Is there software that embeds loops into samples? And can Kontakt read this data from the samples, thus making it so I don't have to make loops in Kontakt?

I do use Keymap, which has a good (although not perfect) loop finding feature, but there are times that the loops don't get transferred perfectly when I load the instrument into Kontakt. (I think someone told me once that the loops are shifted by one sample?) So I have to check all these loops again in Kontakt, because errors are so frequent.

My other reason for exploring an audio editor that embeds loops is that if I later decided I wanted to trim a sample, or add a fade, or some other edit to the sample, the loop would already be there and I wouldn't have to do it again.

Now that I think about it . . . will Keymap embed the loops into a sample?


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## Luca Capozzi (Jun 20, 2014)

+1
I remember ages ago with SoundForge you had the chance to embed loops.. but today I can't find a proper editor for that.


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## kb123 (Jun 20, 2014)

Mike Greene @ Fri Jun 20 said:


> Now that I think about it . . . will Keymap embed the loops into a sample?



yes


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## d.healey (Jun 20, 2014)

I think WaveRobot can do this: http://www.samplerobot.com/funktionalitaet.htm

And Extreme Sample Converter can: http://www.extranslator.com/

Both have clunky user interfaces :(


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## polypx (Jun 21, 2014)

Keymap does write the loop points into a WAV file when you export an instrument and write new WAVs. However, if you load or revert to those loop points from Kontakt, the output loop point is usually one sample "late". This is due to various standards of describing the precise position I think. Kontakt has a command to shift all end loop points -1, which is useful for fixing this.

If you Export a Kontakt instrument from Keymap however, that Instrument has the loop points in the correct place. So Keymap does know how Kontakt prefers them, it's just a poorly defined specification within the WAV files themselves. (In fact, I don't think loop points are a firmly definied part of WAV at all, but bolted into the header in various ways.)

cheers, Dan


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## MacQ (Jun 21, 2014)

Here's the trick with Keymap and the .WAV loop problem:

Output to .AIFF. I talked to Andrea Gozzi about this ages ago, and that's what he told me to do. And it works perfectly, even if I then batch-process to convert those files to .WAV ... the loop points survive and are correct.

But for manual editing of loops/loop-points ... Sound Forge is the only way to go. The Windows version of Sound Forge. Dual-boot or use Parallels, because the Mac version is NOT the same (and is terrible).

And speaking of Keymap ... Andrea just joined LinkedIn, and his job title is "Software Engineer at Apple" ... so as per the speculation elsewhere, I guess he's still developing it, just in-house for Apple.


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## Tod (Jun 21, 2014)

Mike Greene @ Fri Jun 20 said:


> I do use Keymap, which has a good (although not perfect) loop finding feature, but there are times that the loops don't get transferred perfectly when I load the instrument into Kontakt.



So are you guys telling me that you can load your files into *keymap* and it will automatically put in the loop points that work perfectly when you're done? That is if you've got this off-sample thing straightened out.

Back in the old days I also used Sound Forge because it was the only software I had that would embed my loop points so that they would work with a sampler. However, I worked very hard and long at establishing the loop points.

Today I use Reaper to create my loop points and then use Wavosaur to finish it out and save it so it will work in Kontakt. It takes a lot of work but my loop points are perfect.

So are you guys saying you have a way of doing this automatically? 

I'm a really old fart so it wouldn't surprise me. :mrgreen:


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## polypx (Jun 22, 2014)

Not automatically, not for most waveforms anyway, but Keymap does have a lot of looping tools and tricks that are brilliant. I'm also an old fart and used to do it all by hand.


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## Mike Greene (Jun 22, 2014)

Thanks guys! I didn't realize KeyMap could embed loops, so all this info will be a huge help.

To Tod's question, I agree with Dan (polypx.) KeyMap has some great tools and does batch looping, but you'll still have lots of work ahead of you to check which loops are good and which aren't. Where KeyMap really shines from there, though is that it's very easy to have it "try again."

Funny thing about loops, one of the hardest parts is figuring out how good is "as good as it can possibly get." If it's a synth we're sampling, then it's easy, because perfection is possible. But with vocals (and I'm sure other live instruments as well,) there have been so many times where I struggle with looping a particular sample that just doesn't want to cooperate. Maybe there's a timbre shift as she held the note, so I can't do a long loop. Short loops tend to sound less natural, so I *really* have to focus. If it's particularly challenging, I start wondering about maybe if I do the loop towards the end of the sample, people would rarely get to it anyway. But . . . that loop towards the beginning of the sample may not be perfect either, but it's better than the one at the end. Hmmm . . . maybe I should stick to plucked instruments. :mrgreen:


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## Tod (Jun 22, 2014)

Aah okay, thanks Dan and Mike.

I've done a lot of looping over the years and it's always been a long, tedious and usually very difficult job.

I've finally gotten to where I no longer try to find that perfect loop point, I believe there are times when it simply doesn't exist unless it's like Mike says, is too short and doesn't sound natural.

Instead I'm creating 2 or 3 different tracks of the sample and simply crossfading them together and then use the same exact loop point which is actually the perfect loop point. That will give me longer loops and they sound a lot more natural. Of course you have the phasing of the crossfades but with multi instruments it's not that big of deal, it just blends in with the natural phasing. With solo instruments it can get a lot trickier.

Another little trick I use is to duplicate the track/sample and then reverse one of the samples. If you crossfade them and then find the exact zero crossing it will sometimes work. If not, you can duplicate the original track/sample again and crossfade them together in such a way that they sound natural and the loop itself will be much longer and sound more natural.

Lots of work though.


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## derstefmitf (Jul 18, 2016)

Hi,

just found this thread and I wonder if anyone knows if I can export .wav or .aif from Logic Pro X with the cycle points included in the file, so that Kontakt set the loop directly? 
If not, any other DAW that lets me do this? By the way, any ideas how I still can get a license key for Keymap Pro? I am using a Mac, so many programs do not work for me.

Thanks.


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## d.healey (Jul 18, 2016)

derstefmitf said:


> If not, any other DAW that lets me do this?


You can do this in Reaper


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## derstefmitf (Jul 18, 2016)

d.healey said:


> You can do this in Reaper


Alright, I tried it but I cannot get Kontakt to see the markers or loop points. When I drag the sample into iZotope RX, I see the markers, so they must be there. Can you shortly explain how to do this with Reaper?


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## d.healey (Jul 18, 2016)

Did you select the option to render markers and regions?


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## Tod (Jul 18, 2016)

Wow David, I've tried that and couldn't get it to work directly from Reaper to Kontakt. I've been taking the samples and loops I make in Reaper and loading them into Wavosaur to finalize the loops. And yes, I did include the "Markers + regions".

I've been using markers, not regions, which of them are you using?

I'll have to try this again, maybe my attempts were just a fluke.


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## d.healey (Jul 18, 2016)

You need to be exporting regions but if you have the SWS extensions installed you can convert markers to regions. I usually make my loops in EndlessWav and then when I import my samples into Reaper the loop points are already there as cue markers which I convert to regions after editing.


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## Tod (Jul 18, 2016)

Thanks David, yeah, I just did some experimenting and found out it has to be regions and it's good to know. It'll save me one extra step.

That's going to change how I render multi sample projects. I've been using regions for quick rendering. Heh heh, I'll just have to figure another quick way of doing it.


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## Mundano (Jul 18, 2016)

Hi guys. All i know is that Sound Forge was the master tool for editing loops, better than other editor. Since i work now with Mac, Reaper is the answer, but short ago i was made aware of this software - Myriad. I don't own it and don't know if this work in a similar form, but here i let you with the information for you to dig in:

http://www.audiofile-engineering.com/myriad/


and from the manual: http://www.audiofile-engineering.com/myriad/download/MyriadUserGuide.pdf






Edit:


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## d.healey (Jul 18, 2016)

Mundano said:


> Hi guys. All i know is that Sound Forge was the master tool for editing loops, better than other editor. Since i work now with Mac, Reaper is the answer, but short ago i was made aware of this software - Myriad. I don't own it and don't know if this work in a similar form, but here i let you with the information for you to dig in:
> 
> http://www.audiofile-engineering.com/myriad/
> 
> ...


I never got on well with Sound Forge, this looks great - http://www.audiofile-engineering.com/loopeditor/ - shame it's only on Mac


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## Mundano (Jul 18, 2016)

d.healey said:


> shame it's only on Mac



For Windows - Adobe Audition...??


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## Mundano (Jul 18, 2016)

d.healey said:


> this looks great - http://www.audiofile-engineering.com/loopeditor/



indeed...


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## Tod (Jul 18, 2016)

d.healey said:


> I never got on well with Sound Forge, this looks great - http://www.audiofile-engineering.com/loopeditor/ - shame it's only on Mac



Back in the old days, I think I was on Windows 95, Sound Forge was the only software I could actually create loops with. Finding the loop points was rather painstaking, but I always managed to make it happen.

Now days with Reaper, I can make loop points in a mater of minutes that are nearly perfect, if not perfect. Well let me clarify that a little bit, if the sample is decaying, then measures have to be taken to adjust the amplitude, but then that has to be done anyways. It don't work for all instruments, but most, solo instruments can present a problem.

I might add, what I'm doing can be done in any DAW and you might already be doing it.


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## d.healey (Jul 18, 2016)

Tod said:


> Back in the old days, I think I was on Windows 95, Sound Forge was the only software I could actually create loops with. Finding the loop points was rather painstaking, but I always managed to make it happen.
> 
> Now days with Reaper, I can make loop points in a mater of minutes that are nearly perfect, if not perfect. Well let me clarify that a little bit, if the sample is decaying, then measures have to be taken to adjust the amplitude, but then that has to be done anyways. It don't work for all instruments, but most, solo instruments can present a problem.
> 
> I might add, what I'm doing can be done in any DAW and you might already be doing it.


Check out Endlesswav and loop auditioneer, might save you a lot of time


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## Tod (Jul 18, 2016)

Thanks David, googling I got no where with Endlesswav, but loop auditioneer looks interesting, I'll check it out tomorrow.


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## d.healey (Jul 18, 2016)

Tod said:


> Thanks David, googling I got no where with Endlesswav, but loop auditioneer looks interesting, I'll check it out tomorrow.


http://www.bjoernbojahr.de - might want to run it through Google translate


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## Tod (Jul 19, 2016)

d.healey said:


> http://www.bjoernbojahr.de - might want to run it through Google translate



I want to thank you again David, I finally got the "Endlesswav" to work. I had a hard time understanding the translation. I also downloaded the "loop auditioneer", but need to dig into that a little more.

I did a little test today, using my own way of doing it in Reaper. I managed to get perfect loops on 6 stereo samples in a little less that 10 minutes. That was just to get the loops set up. Maybe Endlesswav can do them faster, if and when I totally understand the process.

Since I've got regions setup for the loop points, I need to come up with a quick way of saving them.


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## d.healey (Jul 19, 2016)

Tod said:


> I want to thank you again David, I finally got the "Endlesswav" to work. I had a hard time understanding the translation. I also downloaded the "loop auditioneer", but need to dig into that a little more.
> 
> I did a little test today, using my own way of doing it in Reaper. I managed to get perfect loops on 6 stereo samples in a little less that 10 minutes. That was just to get the loops set up. Maybe Endlesswav can do them faster, if and when I totally understand the process.
> 
> Since I've got regions setup for the loop points, I need to come up with a quick way of saving them.


In 10 minutes I could easily do 50-100 samples in EndlessWav - I only use Reaper to take the samples that I've applied loops to and copy them perfectly onto other mic positions. I also have a trick for batch applying a crossfade to the samples inside Kontakt which I can share if this is something that's useful to you... btw don't use the crossfade feature in EndlessWav, it doesn't add a Kontakt readable crossfade it just kind of dips the volume of the sample


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## wpc982 (Jul 19, 2016)

I use soundforge, with an autohotkey script -- can do a whole set of 20-30 chromatic samples in a minute or so. Select nearly at random with a mouse click & drag; auto cross fade the loop; save; close. Kontakt 5 picks up the samples and recognizes the loops. Done.


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## d.healey (Jul 19, 2016)

wpc982 said:


> I use soundforge, with an autohotkey script -- can do a whole set of 20-30 chromatic samples in a minute or so. Select nearly at random with a mouse click & drag; auto cross fade the loop; save; close. Kontakt 5 picks up the samples and recognizes the loops. Done.


Tell me more about this script... :D


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## Mundano (Jul 19, 2016)

wpc982 said:


> I use soundforge



i highly recommend Sound Forge for Windows users...


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## Tod (Jul 19, 2016)

d.healey said:


> In 10 minutes I could easily do 50-100 samples in EndlessWav - I only use Reaper to take the samples that I've applied loops to and copy them perfectly onto other mic positions. I also have a trick for batch applying a crossfade to the samples inside Kontakt which I can share if this is something that's useful to you... btw don't use the crossfade feature in EndlessWav, it doesn't add a Kontakt readable crossfade it just kind of dips the volume of the sample



Okay, I guess I've got to get more acquainted with EndlessWav.  Tomorrow I'll try the google translator to see if it's any better.

And yes, I'd be interested in the crossfade trick, once I get the basics figured out. And thanks for the heads up on that.

I do have an other question David, what are the quality of the loops, are they flawless? 



wpc982 said:


> I use soundforge, with an autohotkey script -- can do a whole set of 20-30 chromatic samples in a minute or so. Select nearly at random with a mouse click & drag; auto cross fade the loop; save; close. Kontakt 5 picks up the samples and recognizes the loops. Done.



Yeah, I used Sound Forge for this many years ago, it was painstaking work. I think it was Sound Forge 6, but I was thankful because it was all I had that could do it.

I've still got it, but it's something I got free when I bought Movie Studio. I tried to make loops with it but maybe the free version can't do it.


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## wpc982 (Jul 21, 2016)

Autohotkey is a simple thing: it can reduce a series of key presses or mouse moves to a single keystroke .. no magic involved. I usually map a sequence of things to one of the (windows) keypad keys. So: set loop range is done with the mouse, visually, then create loop, crossfade, save, next is the AHK script. Reduces to look at screen, swipe with mouse, tap #1 on keypad; look at screen, swipe, tap; look, swipe, tap; etc.

Edit -- all this, done within SoundForge, after opening a folder full of individual wav files with already tuned samples of the correct length...


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## d.healey (Jul 21, 2016)

wpc982 said:


> Autohotkey is a simple thing: it can reduce a series of key presses or mouse moves to a single keystroke .. no magic involved. I usually map a sequence of things to one of the (windows) keypad keys. So: set loop range is done with the mouse, visually, then create loop, crossfade, save, next is the AHK script. Reduces to look at screen, swipe with mouse, tap #1 on keypad; look at screen, swipe, tap; look, swipe, tap; etc.
> 
> Edit -- all this, done within SoundForge, after opening a folder full of individual wav files with already tuned samples of the correct length...


Ah this sounds cool, I can probably use this with EndlessWav too


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## Tod (Jul 22, 2016)

Tod said:


> I do have another question David, what are the quality of the loops, are they flawless?



Okay, I got a chance to check out both EndlessWav and loop auditioneer. I think they are both impressive. Neither of them created flawless loop points, but with loop auditioneer, I could get the crossfades so they were fairly acceptable. I didn't try to make crossfades with EndlessWav because of what you said David.



d.healey said:


> In 10 minutes I could easily do 50-100 samples in EndlessWav - I only use Reaper to take the samples that I've applied loops to and copy them perfectly onto other mic positions. I also have a trick for batch applying a crossfade to the samples inside Kontakt which I can share if this is something that's useful to you... btw don't use the crossfade feature in EndlessWav, it doesn't add a Kontakt readable crossfade it just kind of dips the volume of the sample



So there must be a way to kind of automate the various steps? Doing it the way I was doing it, one sample at a time using Shift-Ctrl to place the loop, I think it would be difficult to do 50 in 10 minutes. Then you have to make crossfades, although your batch tool might make it quickly.

With loop auditioneer it was pretty easy, but by the time I would select which loop to use, and then crossfade it, it wouldn't be real quick.

The thing about the way I've been doing it in Reaper, the loop points are perfect and there's no need for any crossfades. I was messing around with it today and I created a couple of more macros to take more of the mundane steps out of it and speed things up quite a bit. I have no doubt that if I put a little thought and effort into it and put more macros together, I could probably do 50 flawless loops in 10 minutes, maybe less.


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## d.healey (Jul 22, 2016)

For the crossfades you need to have a pre 4.2 version of Kontakt - I use K3. And look up nki to xml. Once you have created the xml you can open it in Sublime Text and enter all the crossfades in one go using find/replace or multiple cursors. You can do a lot of other stuff in here too like renaming groups. Then you use nki to xml to turn the edited xml back into an NKI file which you then load into your main version of Kontakt and resave.


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## Sascha Franck (Oct 12, 2018)

First off: Sorry for bumping this old thread, especially as this seems to be my first post (got a member ages ago and almost forgot...).
Anyway, what's the actual situation regarding embedded looppoints on OSX? I know I could purchase Wavelab, but that'd be overkill as I really only need a looppoint editor.
Endless Wav looks pretty much like the ticket, but installing a virtual machine just for that? Well, not really what floats my boat, I'd defenitely prefer some native OSX application. In case there's nothing slick and cost-effective, I will go the VM route, but maybe some of you fine folks have updated knowledge regarding the issue.

Cheers
Sascha


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## d.healey (Oct 12, 2018)

This video I made might be useful for you


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## Sascha Franck (Oct 12, 2018)

d.healey said:


> This video I made might be useful for you




Quite a nice explanation - and certainly extremely helpful. I might be able to entirely skip the Reaper part of it as I've got no plans to construct any bigger libraries atm, just some fun stuff for myself. But that LoopAuditioner sure looks like a nifty program.
However, the caveat being that I'm on OSX and there only seem to be Windows and Linux versions. Now, I may install a VM again, but uhm, after switching from OSX10.8 to High Sierra just recently, I hoped I was done with the VM business... But then, LoopAuditioner and the Björn Bojahr stuff might make me think about it again.

Thanks a lot!

- Sascha


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## d.healey (Oct 12, 2018)

Sascha Franck said:


> Quite a nice explanation - and certainly extremely helpful. I might be able to entirely skip the Reaper part of it as I've got no plans to construct any bigger libraries atm, just some fun stuff for myself. But that LoopAuditioner sure looks like a nifty program.
> However, the caveat being that I'm on OSX and there only seem to be Windows and Linux versions. Now, I may install a VM again, but uhm, after switching from OSX10.8 to High Sierra just recently, I hoped I was done with the VM business... But then, LoopAuditioner and the Björn Bojahr stuff might make me think about it again.


If you really want to use Loop Auditioneer then you could download the source code and compile it yourself (I had to do this for my OS).


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## Sascha Franck (Oct 12, 2018)

d.healey said:


> If you really want to use Loop Auditioneer then you could download the source code and compile it yourself (I had to do this for my OS).



Ah well, nah, that's really nothing I could ever manage doing.
Guess I'd rather install Windows on a VM.


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## olmerk (May 15, 2019)

Has anyone watched this old video? 



While I understand the general idea, I still don't get how the positions are calculated - not mentioning that the guy uses his own custom scripting not revealed in the tutorial either. Any ideas?


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## Tod (May 15, 2019)

Hi olmerk, That was a rather extreme case where I had a lot of violin, viola, and cello samples to loop. I created custom macros in Reaper to do all that. Positioning was simple do to the nature of the string sections being complex waves/waveforms.

I'm still using the same principles today although every sample looping project is different in one respect or another. I've got just a few custom macros the I can usually use with each project, but for the most part I usually end up creating new macros for each project.


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## olmerk (May 15, 2019)

Tod said:


> I created custom macros in Reaper to do all that.



Tod, thank you for the response! For the present I can repeat manually, what is shown in the video, with my loops and the method works quite nice. Now I'd like to script this routine. Did you do it by the means of macros using available Reaper (built-in or third-party) scripts or you had to script it all by yourself from scratch using Lua/EEL/Python?


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## Tod (May 15, 2019)

Actually back at that time I probably didn't use any scripts, they were not available like they are now. My macros would have consisted mainly of Reapers built in actions along with the SWS actions.

Now days there is a plethora of scripts available along with several script writers. If a person needs something, all they have to do is pretty much just ask.

I haven't personally gotten into Reaper's script writing, I just don't have the time to learn another language. But I really don't have too, right now with the actions and scripts that are available, I feel like there's literally nothing I can't do. 

When it comes to recording and editing samples I automate the process as much as possible, not just to save time, but to take the mundane out of it. Also there's way less room for error.

I got into Reaper the end of 2009 and I'm glad i did. There's just no other DAW that can do what I do what I need to do.


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## gsilbers (Feb 18, 2020)

any updates on a mac app that can do loop points? ideally so i can loop user audio in omnisphere.


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## gsilbers (Feb 18, 2020)

ah, i figured it out in logic pro. not easy to see. and this is a note for my future self cuz im sure ill forget lol.

select file and open in "file" editor below. select the loop points and hit the loop icon.
on "edit" on the file editor menu:
select: selection>sample loop.
then select "write sample loop to audio file."

now the loop point inside the file will be shown on kontakt and will work in omnisphere.

whats wierd is that creating loop points in kontakt and exporting/making a new instrument, wont embed the loop points so they appear in logic or omnisphere. unless im missing something .


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## EvilDragon (Feb 19, 2020)

Creating loops in Kontakt is non-destructive, it only writes loop info into the NKI, not the samples.


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## jcrosby (Feb 19, 2020)

gsilbers said:


> ah, i figured it out in logic pro. not easy to see. and this is a note for my future self cuz im sure ill forget lol.
> 
> select file and open in "file" editor below. select the loop points and hit the loop icon.
> on "edit" on the file editor menu:
> ...


Acon Digital Acoustica and DSP Quattro are a lot more forgiving than Logic.


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## Sascha Franck (Feb 19, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Creating loops in Kontakt is non-destructive, it only writes loop info into the NKI, not the samples.



Which, fwiw, is quite a pity and an oldtime request of mine. But then, there's so many things so fundamentally wrong in Kontakt that I have completely given up on any hopes.

Anyway, personally, by now I've bought Wavelab Elements during a deal for around €50 and it does a great job on looping individual files, even pretty critical ones.
If I had to go for mass-looping of large numbers of files, I'd possibly go for the Reaper approach kindly provided earlier, but fortunately (well...), I don't.


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## EvilDragon (Feb 19, 2020)

Not really a pity, it's more flexible IMO because in the same patch you can use one sample many times with different loop points. Its main intention is not to be a sample editor. Burning loops into samples is a feature of sample editors, not sample players. Just my 2c.


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## Sascha Franck (Feb 19, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Not really a pity, it's more flexible IMO because in the same patch you can use one sample many times with different loop points. Its main intention is not to be a sample editor. Burning loops into samples is a feature of sample editors, not sample players. Just my 2c.



Could be optional. Just as it is with any sample editor.


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## EvilDragon (Feb 19, 2020)

Yeah, again, Kontakt's main intention is not sample editing. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the Sample Editor tab from Wave Editor is removed at some point in the future.


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## Sascha Franck (Feb 19, 2020)

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised with anything regarding Kontakt. Maybe one day you can't even load samples yourself anymore (unless you own a special edition).


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## EvilDragon (Feb 19, 2020)

Yeah that's not gonna happen


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## neblix (Feb 19, 2020)

Sascha Franck said:


> Could be optional. Just as it is with any sample editor.



Kontakt is not a sample editor nor was it ever marketed as a sample editor. It's a sampler.


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## Sascha Franck (Feb 20, 2020)

I would rather not discuss anything NI in too much detail, just this: I'm actively looking for alternatives to suit my daily sampling needs. For very good reasons. And for the same reasons, many other folks are doing so. There's something very wrong in NI land.

And for the record: No, technically Kontakt isn't a sampler but a sample player.


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## EvilDragon (Feb 20, 2020)

Sascha Franck said:


> There's something very wrong in NI land.



Except Kontakt remains the most successful product they have next to Komplete. So, nothing wrong there. 




Sascha Franck said:


> And for the record: No, technically Kontakt isn't a sampler but a sample player.



Either way it's not marketed as a sample _editor_, which was Nabeel's point. "Sampl*er*" can mean either "sample record*er*" or "sample play*er*".


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## Sascha Franck (Feb 20, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Except Kontakt remains the most successful product they have next to Komplete. So, nothing wrong there.



There's exactly one reason for that, and that's because they were first and kinda defined a standard for plugin samplers. Others than that, Kontakt development is an embarassing shame. And yes, I could elaborate, and no, I'm *far* from being the only one with that opinion. In fact, I and *many* other did already elaborate - but NI just doesn't care about that at all. And it's not only like that with Kontakt but with almost all of their products.

Anyway, sorta back to topic: From all I remember there's been Kontakt versions which allowed you to destructively edit samples, so there's no technical reasons why one shouldn't be able to save loop points with them. In fact, a sampler would be the perfect choice for doing that as you could check out your loop points in realtime.
And fwiw, Logics EXS is a sampler as well - and yet you can export the looppoints to samples you editied inside it.


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## d.healey (Feb 20, 2020)

Sascha Franck said:


> Maybe one day you can't even load samples yourself anymore (unless you own a special edition).


That's already the case, Kontakt/Kontakt Player.


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## EvilDragon (Feb 20, 2020)

Sascha Franck said:


> There's exactly one reason for that, and that's because they were first and kinda defined a standard for plugin samplers.



Erm, wasn't GigaStudio the one who really defined things (direct from disk streaming, etc.)?  The only thing Kontakt added to the basket was scripting, really, which led to...



Sascha Franck said:


> Others than that, Kontakt development is an embarassing shame.



It's not. They just have a different vision of what it should be than you might. It's became an authoring platform rather than a creative sampler, really. Again - different vision. Want a creative sampler? Falcon is great for that (and I use it for that exact purpose too).


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## Sascha Franck (Feb 20, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Erm, wasn't GigaStudio the one who really defined things (direct from disk streaming, etc.)?  The only thing Kontakt added to the basket was scripting, really, which led to...



No, it was Kontakt as Gigasampler never really took off while Kontakt did.



> It's not. They just have a different vision of what it should be than you might. It's became an authoring platform rather than a creative sampler, really. Again - different vision. Want a creative sampler? Falcon is great for that (and I use it for that exact purpose too).



It doesn't matter whether it's an "authoring platform" or a "creative" sampler. There's a truckload of things in Kontakt that are a straight offense to human intelligence and NI simply doesn't take care of it.
Absolutely the same (well, even worse...) for Battery which they even decided to dis-improve (and yes, in case of Battery it can even be proven by hard facts).


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## d.healey (Feb 20, 2020)

Sascha Franck said:


> It doesn't matter whether it's an "authoring platform" or a "creative" sampler. There's a truckload of things in Kontakt that are a straight offense to human intelligence and NI simply doesn't take care of it.


Maybe you'd like HISE


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## Sascha Franck (Feb 20, 2020)

d.healey said:


> Maybe you'd like HISE



Hm, haven't heard about that, yet (and just very briefly skimmed through the website). Would you say HISE is something for a mere enduser like me, with no (or almost no) interest in creating his own scripts and such?
Thanks for the tip, though, I will read about it a bit more!


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## EvilDragon (Feb 20, 2020)

HISE is at least from my perspective indeed a more developer-focused sampler, rather than end-user one. Falcon would be a better end-user sampler. Or, if you actually really want to sample as well (and have a pretty darn in-depth wavetable engine with different ways of creating your own wavetables), then HALion 6.



Sascha Franck said:


> There's a truckload of things in Kontakt that are a straight offense to human intelligence and NI simply doesn't take care of it.



Really, a truckload? OK now you got me interested. Please PM me that truckload and let's continue there.


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## Sascha Franck (Feb 20, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Really, a truckload? OK now you got me interested. Please PM me that truckload and let's continue there.



I may even think about doing that. But then, plenty of these very things should already be in NIs posession since years. In addition, most of them are wellknown anyway.


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## EvilDragon (Feb 20, 2020)

You know how it goes, years pass, team structure and objectives change...

Please do PM me. We've offtopicked enough I agree


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## d.healey (Feb 20, 2020)

Sascha Franck said:


> Would you say HISE is something for a mere enduser like me, with no (or almost no) interest in creating his own scripts and such?


No, definitely not. And actually now I think about it, I'm not sure it's any different to Kontakt in terms of embedding loops in Wav files.


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## neblix (Feb 20, 2020)

Saying a sampler should destructively edit samples is a fundamental misunderstanding of what a sampler is.

Yes, they can implement it, and some others do.

Is it useful? No. Any serious audio editor will not be using a sampler to do their editing work. Adding the destructive embed of loop points will be time that their dev team wastes instead of spending that time addressing things that developers like us are asking for.


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## Sascha Franck (Feb 20, 2020)

neblix said:


> Saying a sampler should destructively edit samples is a fundamental misunderstanding of what a sampler is.
> 
> Yes, they can implement it, and some others do.
> 
> Is it useful? No. Any serious audio editor will not be using a sampler to do their editing work. Adding the destructive embed of loop points will be time that their dev team wastes instead of spending that time addressing things that developers like us are asking for.



I totally disagree. 
First off: Who said Kontakt was just made for "developers like you"?
Next: I already said so, checking out loop points within a sampler is incredibly more efficient because you can already listen to them while playing.
Further: Once the loop points are set in a sampler, it should be a rather trivial task to save them to the file.


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## jcrosby (Feb 21, 2020)

Sascha Franck said:


> I totally disagree.
> First off: Who said Kontakt was just made for "developers like you"?
> Next: I already said so, checking out loop points within a sampler is incredibly more efficient because you can already listen to them while playing.
> Further: Once the loop points are set in a sampler, it should be a rather trivial task to save them to the file.



C'mon now. Sample editors go back decades to when sampling was done on hardware and I still use tons of current stuff where I wish they had the tools a proper sample editor had. And are you suggesting a developer making instruments with tens of thousands of samples don't use tools like a sample editor that allow them to automate the process???


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## Sascha Franck (Feb 21, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> C'mon now. Sample editors go back decades to when sampling was done on hardware and I still use tons of current stuff where I wish they had the tools of a sample editor. (Which IMO is equally questionable.)



Well, back in the days, sample editing was often done on samplers, especially when it comes to loop point editing. And when you load some old AKAI files, you will find that they have their loop points embedded, set straight inside the sampler. So what's your point?



> In terms of Kontakt: You're telling me you'd prefer to manually set the loop point of multiple samples in a patch even if you could do it sample accurately in a program specifically intended to edit samples?



I'm setting my loop points manually anyway (fwiw, I'm not talking about any kind of automated looping process for big chunks of orchestral recordings or whatsoever). And when it comes to that, having realtime control about how the loop points work when actually playing them (especially on pitched notes) is absolutely great.



> While you're at it feel free to enlighten Omnisphere users on the built in to Omnisphere that allow you to define loop points with user imported audio.



I don't use Omnisphere and have no idea what it's got to do with this.


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## Lindon (Feb 21, 2020)

OK so: 

Mario is right - if you are looking for a more end-user focused - but very powerful sampler solution then Falcon would better fit your bill.

You are right - Kontakt development has been woefully slow for many many years and NI haven't spent much time listening to the developer community - which is probably why a bunch of major players are moving to other platforms. 

Mario is right - Kontakt is the most popular platform - so more commercial libraries are on it right now

Dave is right HISE is a much more developer focused platform. But compared to every other platform its development progress is outstanding. But it has a way to catch up so not a surprise there.

You decide what counts for you and go with that.


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## Sascha Franck (Feb 21, 2020)

So, in a nutshell: NI is ignoring both end user and developer requests. Nothing new here, really. And quite a shame.

Anyhow, back to topic. I'm getting things done pretty quickly in Wavelab and wish there was a batch looping functionality as I noticed that the same settings work fine when dealing with similar files.


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## EvilDragon (Feb 21, 2020)

Actually no, NI has been quite receptive to a pretty solid number of developer requests in the past 4 or so years. We've got floating point math in KSP (huge request for a very long time), XY pads, a lot of 3rd party developers also requested better delay, reverb and modulation effects (all done in K6), and also dropping in user samples onto scripted GUIs was a pretty big request by a number of developers (and actually, a solid number of users) too.

So... I think it's quite unfair to say they are ignoring feature requests.


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## Lindon (Feb 21, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Actually no, NI has been quite receptive to a pretty solid number of developer requests in the past few years. We've got floating point math (huge request for a very long time), XY pads, a lot of 3rd party developers also requested better delay, reverb and modulation effects (all done in K6), and also dropping in user samples onto scripted GUIs was a pretty big request by a number of developers too.
> 
> So... I think it's quite unfair to say they are ignoring feature requests.


Here we go again....

NI ignored every one of my requests, and apparently nearly every one of Spitfires too...as I recall there was a fair number of things you've been asking for for several years that haven't shown up - and you work for Native Instruments.......


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## EvilDragon (Feb 21, 2020)

They don't have to accept each and every request everyone makes, that is of course unrealistic - understandable, no? But a good number of my feature requests has actually been implemented in fact (even before I started working for NI as a freelancer).

For the record, what were your requests?


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## Lindon (Feb 21, 2020)

Good, I'm glad that happened for you. What I was alluding to was the *pace* of change - yes they've done stuff, a lot of the things you mentioned are in K5+ but earlier than this? not so much. YMMV.

Sorry missed your second question: my biggest request was loadable/savable groups.


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## EvilDragon (Feb 21, 2020)

Indeed there were slow periods before Kontakt 5.5 or so, but things have ramped up considerably since then, this is pretty apparent.

Still interested to hear what were your requests. Maybe there are good reasons why they weren't taken on that's not "we don't have time/other stuff is greater prio".


Also, just because I'm closer to NI now doesn't mean they listen to me more. Well, not in every case


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## Lindon (Feb 21, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Indeed there were slow periods before Kontakt 5.5 or so, but things have ramped up considerably since then, this is pretty apparent.
> 
> Still interested to hear what were your requests. Maybe there are good reasons why they weren't taken on that's not "we don't have time/other stuff is greater prio".
> 
> ...


yeah Im sure. - As I said the biggest thing I wanted was loadable/saveable/unloadable groups.

This is exactly what HISE does out of the box with sample maps...and it makes a massive difference to what can get done.

...oh and a proper scripting environment where I can do string manipulation/comparison....


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## EvilDragon (Feb 21, 2020)

String operations are a strict no-no in realtime audio thread (which is where KSP is running all the time), though... Maybe if they are made async, but that just makes it meh in actual usage.

User zones are actually quite useful if you need dynamic soundsources (so that your instruments don't take up a bunch of groups when you could just have 2 or 4 etc.). Some instruments using them in exactly this manner are actually being developed (P. N. is doing one). The only thing is, there's a max of 512 user zones, so for more elaborate instruments it's not enough. However this is not a hard limit in the engine and could be increased at a later date.


(And yes, I very much do agree with that request for loading keymaps or whole groups from external files, would be neat for sure!)


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## Lindon (Feb 21, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> String operations are a strict no-no in realtime audio thread (which is where KSP is running all the time), though... Maybe if they are made async, but that just makes it meh in actual usage.
> 
> User zones are actually quite useful if you need dynamic soundsources (so that your instruments don't take up a bunch of groups when you could just have 2 or 4 etc.). Some instruments using them in exactly this manner are actually being developed (P. N. is doing one). The only thing is, there's a max of 512 user zones, so for more elaborate instruments it's not enough. However this is not a hard limit in the engine and could be increased at a later date.
> 
> ...


yeah it ends up being an architectural issue - KSP should NEVER have been in the audio thread - which I'm sure they'd not do in a heart beat if they started again - but they are where they are - and we all suffer the consequences of it. 

So the reality is that there are some (quite reasonable and now standard) things that NI hasn't addressed in kontakt, and probably wont because it'd be such a major re-write. That doesn't take away from the fact that these are deficiencies - its broken at an architectural level - its not a perfect product - no product is - but my mileage is that its MUCH worse than your experience of it - which is why I (and a bunch of other developers) are moving away from the platform.


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## EvilDragon (Feb 21, 2020)

KSP must be in the realtime thread because it's actually realtime interpreted language (after the initial code parsing when you press the Apply button) - and is envisioned as such. This does not make it architecturally broken. Also it needs to be realtime because of event processing and listener at the very least (since you can run it at 1 millisecond intervals, which in most cases is still faster than your ordinary DAW buffer). Maybe also because of engine parameters too (you can refresh them faster than a DAW buffer), and commands like fade_in()/fade_out(). All this cannot be processed at arbitrary buffer sizes (as imposed by DAW) because that would result in things behaving/sounding differently at different buffer sizes.


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## Erick - BVA (Feb 21, 2020)

I'm curious. I'm kind of a lowly simpleton when it comes to Kontakt. But has a basic feature of selecting multiple groups at once been added? Or maybe it's already there and I'm too dumb to figure it out? 
I'm still working in 5.8.1 (haven't updated yet), but as far as I know, I still need to hold control and click on each one that I want. And if I accidently click outside a little tiny spot, then my entire selection gets reset and I have to start over. 
Has that been added? Or is it already a feature I just don't know about? 
Like a "select all groups" function? I know you can "edit all groups" 
I want to select them. 

And regarding loops. Kontakt should have an ability to do what all of these products that have been mentioned can do (creating automatic loops). I guess I don't really see a downside. The loop part of it isn't really part of the sample editing process, because much of much of what you want the loop to do, depends on what a particular Kontakt script is doing, or on the purpose of a particular patch -- which becomes dependent on Kontakt itself. If it's not a destructive process, then the functions for it should be bolstered and advanced to give more options. After all, you wouldn't be affecting the sample outside of Kontakt. 
And then yet we're told to "destroy" our samples outside of Kontakt in order to make it work for Kontakt?

Looping is such an annoying process, and so far I'd just rather loop it manually. Unless.... the particular sounds I'm making are pretty uniform, and I can be assured that the sounds will loop pretty much the same (and they have to be the same length)... Then and only then can I use the batch looping in Kontakt (which is a difficult thing to find out about in itself).


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## EvilDragon (Feb 21, 2020)

Sibelius19 said:


> I'm curious. I'm kind of a lowly simpleton when it comes to Kontakt. But has a basic feature of selecting multiple groups at once been added? Or maybe it's already there and I'm too dumb to figure it out?
> I'm still working in 5.8.1 (haven't updated yet), but as far as I know, I still need to hold control and click on each one that I want. And if I accidently click outside a little tiny spot, then my entire selection gets reset and I have to start over.
> Has that been added? Or is it already a feature I just don't know about?
> Like a "select all groups" function? I know you can "edit all groups"
> I want to select them.



You mean a marquee selection of groups by just dragging over there? It's not there. But you can select a bunch of groups by clicking the first group then Shift+clicking the last group you want to select. Ctrl+clicking is for non-contiguous selection.


Personally, I would want to see this distinction between selection and editing of groups gone. It should simply be: what you select is what you edit. Feature request exists.


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## d.healey (Feb 21, 2020)

Sibelius19 said:


> I'm curious. I'm kind of a lowly simpleton when it comes to Kontakt. But has a basic feature of selecting multiple groups at once been added? Or maybe it's already there and I'm too dumb to figure it out?



Use the Monitor tab/window, been there since at least K4.


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## Erick - BVA (Feb 21, 2020)

Thanks! Will be a time saver.
It would still be nice to have the ability to select various groups at once. But I'll live...at least now


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## EvilDragon (Feb 21, 2020)

d.healey said:


> been there since at least K4.



It was there in K3 too.


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## d.healey (Feb 21, 2020)

Sibelius19 said:


> It would still be nice to have the ability to select various groups at once. But I'll live...at least now


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## Erick - BVA (Feb 21, 2020)

d.healey said:


>


Well, wait though. Can I copy them and paste them into a different instance of the engine (NKI) this way? 
If so, I'm kicking myself right now. I'd probably have at least 2 more major sample libraries released by now if I'd known this before.


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## Erick - BVA (Feb 21, 2020)

Well, I should just try it out myself lol


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## d.healey (Feb 21, 2020)

Sibelius19 said:


> Well, I should just try it out myself lol


Report back and let us know


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## EvilDragon (Feb 21, 2020)

Yes you can copy/paste into any other NKI loaded within the same instance of Kontakt.


This was a bit of a classic example of RTFM


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## Erick - BVA (Feb 21, 2020)

Well, it's an affirmative! 
Thanks guys! 
This will really come in handy moving forward


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## Mike Greene (Feb 21, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Personally, I would want to see this distinction between selection and editing of groups gone. It should simply be: what you select is what you edit. Feature request exists.


Add my name to that petition!


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## Lindon (Feb 22, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> KSP must be in the realtime thread because it's actually realtime interpreted language (after the initial code parsing when you press the Apply button) - and is envisioned as such. This does not make it architecturally broken. Also it needs to be realtime because of event processing and listener at the very least (since you can run it at 1 millisecond intervals, which in most cases is still faster than your ordinary DAW buffer). Maybe also because of engine parameters too (you can refresh them faster than a DAW buffer), and commands like fade_in()/fade_out(). All this cannot be processed at arbitrary buffer sizes (as imposed by DAW) because that would result in things behaving/sounding differently at different buffer sizes.


We are getting in to dangerous territory again where I promised myself I wouldnt go with you again but....

KSP does not need to be in the *SAME* thread as the audio - even if it is real-time, and it can be prioritized accordingly (audio thread first) - so this is either a mis-understanding of how threading can work in real-time systems, or its disingenuous. Trust me I spent 25 years in the telecommunications industry I KNOW how real-time systems work. The buffer-sizes issue is a straw-man - you are given an allotment of time to do processing in - how you handle what needs to be done is up to you - this is true for ALL plug-ins.

We could spend a fair amount of time discussing real-time architectures, buffer-sizes, demand-driven resource requesting, time division multiplexing et al. But lets just point at a product that has a "proper" language and retains consistent real-time processing by managing resourcing at the language definition level, and thus is archtectured better than Kontakt. A product that does all the things you say isnt done in KSP because it cant be done....either it can be done or its somehow breaking the laws of physics.


-- HISE


Right at this point history tells me that this will descend into dogeral and denial. So I'm leaving this here, put simply:

- You say it cant be done
- theres a product out there at does it.


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## gsilbers (Feb 22, 2020)

well, this thread took an interesting turn... 

anyways, another way i thinnk its with konakt assistant from chicken translator. 

and i think with EXS24 there are loop points which get embedded. but not sure. just remembered since its a similar layout than kontakt assitant app.


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## P.N. (Feb 23, 2020)

Lindon said:


> Right at this point history tells me that this will descend into dogeral and denial. So I'm leaving this here, put simply:
> 
> - You say it cant be done
> - theres a product out there at does it.



I don't think Mario said "it can't be done", nor was he comparing it to other products.
He was talking about how Kontakt itself works internally.

If this causes significant issues to your workflow, that's understandable, but let's not paint a picture of how "broken" Kontakt is, considering the amount of amazing products released over the years.

I'm not aware of a particular huge issue that personally prevents me from doing whatever i need to in Kontakt.
I know there are deficiencies, of course, but they just don't affect me most of the time, and when they do, i work towards finding solutions.


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## Sascha Franck (Feb 23, 2020)

Just for once, NI could start offering what could be called an up to date interface with Kontakt - instead of what can't be called anything else but an offense to any intelligent human with working visual senses.


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## Tod (Feb 27, 2020)

Sascha Franck said:


> Just for once, NI could start offering what could be called an up to date interface with Kontakt - instead of what can't be called anything else but an offense to any intelligent human with working visual senses.


Humm Sascha, you seem to be implying that many of us who work with Kontakt are unintelligent and blind.

I like what P.N. has to say here..


P.N. said:


> I don't think Mario said "it can't be done", nor was he comparing it to other products.
> He was talking about how Kontakt itself works internally.
> 
> If this causes significant issues to your workflow, that's understandable, but let's not paint a picture of how "broken" Kontakt is, considering the amount of amazing products released over the years.
> ...



Also this thread is about imbedding loops into samples, and some of you expect Kontakt to do that for you seamlessly. Are you acquainted with Reaper?


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## Sascha Franck (Feb 28, 2020)

Tod said:


> Humm Sascha, you seem to be implying that many of us who work with Kontakt are unintelligent and blind.



So, you think that GUIs and mapping/wave editors that *still* can't be resized (and I'm not even talking about the plugin version) after around 20 years is an intelligent choice made by NI? In my book, it's nothing else but super embarrassing.




> Also this thread is about imbedding loops into samples, and some of you expect Kontakt to do that for you seamlessly. Are you acquainted with Reaper?



I have said so before, for quite some samples it makes a whole lot of sense if you can play them while checking out loop points (especially when you deal with somewhat "evolving" samples such as field recordings and what not). That's why I'd prefer adjusting loop points in my sampler of choice. And as I'd like to re-use them (in other patches but in other samplers, too), I would like being able to write loop points to the file. Can't see what's so tough to understand behind that concept - and it also shouldn't be rocket science for the folks at NI. But then, all too apparently, plenty of things are rocket science to them these days.
And fwiw, yes, you got that right, I don't have too much respect for them anymore, they simply messed up pretty much everything I loved once (I could come up with *loads* of examples).


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## Patrik Herman (Feb 28, 2020)

What a lovely community ❤


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## P.N. (Feb 28, 2020)

Sascha Franck said:


> So, you think that GUIs and mapping/wave editors that *still* can't be resized (and I'm not even talking about the plugin version) after around 20 years is an intelligent choice made by NI? In my book, it's nothing else but super embarrassing.



Regarding the mapping/wave editors - these can be resized up to 1024*700 (Size C) in a separate window.


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## EvilDragon (Feb 28, 2020)

Sascha Franck said:


> So, you think that GUIs and mapping/wave editors that *still* can't be resized



They can in standalone. Can even customize the A/B/C sizes in registry. I have size C set to 1320x1024, and it's pretty darn good.







How's that for intelligence? Also this was possible since Kontakt 2.


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## Sascha Franck (Feb 28, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> They can in standalone. Can even customize the A/B/C sizes in registry. I have size C set to 1320x1024, and it's pretty darn good.



Just have a look at how pretty much any other program does it. You can resize windows by dragging borders (or by using the fullscreen icons on the window title bar).
Even at 1024x700 it's not even using a third of my monitor screen estate. And I have no idea what the registry equivalent might be under macOS - and frankly put, I shouldn't have to care about it, either, because it could just work as in pretty much any other program.


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## EvilDragon (Feb 28, 2020)

Expected goalpost moving there. You say it's not resizeable, I show that it is, and then "but blablabla". I suppose those who can't help but complain will always find a way to do so. 


(Equivalent of registry is plist on Mac just FYI.)


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## Sascha Franck (Feb 28, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> Expected goalpost moving there. You say it's not resizeable, I show that it is, and then "but blablabla". I suppose those who can't help but complain will always find a way to do so.



Well, could say the same about your posts. Trying to defend something where there's nothing to defend.
Anyway, you're pretty wellknown for this, so it doesn't make much sense and I'll stop this discussion for me.


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## EvilDragon (Feb 28, 2020)

It was more about correcting a wrong statement (that mapping and wave editors aren't resizeable) than anything else, really. Correcting a statement is not the same thing as goalpost moving that you did straight after that.


And just for the record: _we can all agree_ that Kontakt's GUI is far from perfect (and yes, everybody is aware of this including NI, worry not), but that it's an insult to one's intelligence, that it isn't. There are valid workflow pain points in literally every other open (as in - not locked down to single developer like PLAY or Vienna) sampler plugin out there, be it Falcon, Halion, HISE, or whatever else have you.


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## Lindon (Mar 3, 2020)

Sascha Franck said:


> Well, could say the same about your posts. Trying to defend something where there's nothing to defend.
> Anyway, you're pretty wellknown for this, so it doesn't make much sense and I'll stop this discussion for me.


Sascha, as a general theme - NI have not cared to move Kontakt forward or invest in it in proportion to the revenue they make from it and thus are not being even handed to customers who purchased it - you are in the right, but....

This is VI Control - its ground zero for NI fanboys, if you criticize Kontakt or (for some) NI then they will construe this as a personal insult against them - this isnt a place where you are going to get a balanced argument - and perhaps it shouldn't be. ED has pointed out some flaws in your arguments about specifics, and has agreed with you that Kontakt is not perfect (no product is) - honestly thats as good as its going to get here.

You may think it sad that there isnt a space here for balanced general criticism of NI and Kontakt, and I'd agree with you, but many vested in Kontakt and NI will argue that this space exists here...however I could point you at posts where people have suggested a future with a better-than-kontakt sampler solution, and respondents have said they will only part with kontakt once they are dead...seriously - they dont care to even consider a future with something better than what we've got...

So this place is what it is and I've come to the conclusion that to push for anything else is wasting time and energy.

In brief: let it go.


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## neblix (Mar 8, 2020)

Lindon said:


> You may think it sad that there isnt a space here for balanced general criticism of NI and Kontakt





> Just for once, NI could start offering what could be called an up to date interface with Kontakt - instead of what can't be called anything else but an offense to any intelligent human with working visual senses.



Totally balanced criticism, no hyperbole or oversimplification whatsoever. My eyes have been opened, how have I gone so long as an accomplished developer not realizing I have been so offended?

I think the Kontakt interface is in really poor service to developers, but this isn't a license to just say unfiltered nonsense. There's no reason to respond to a pattern of vapid belligerence with anything besides dismissal. ED offering specific engagement beyond this has been, from an outsider perspective, incredibly generous.


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## Erick - BVA (Mar 8, 2020)

neblix said:


> ....unfiltered nonsense... vapid belligerence



No offense, but from an outside perspective, saying things like this comes off as very arrogant and rude. Especially when you provide no rationale or reason behind it. 
Perhaps you didn't mean it like that. 

It seems that people simply have a different perspective on things, different opinions. 
Can we agree to disagree on some things? Instead of approving or disapproving certain statements as if our opinion is superior?


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## neblix (Mar 8, 2020)

Sibelius19 said:


> No offense, but from an outside perspective, saying things like this comes off as very arrogant and rude. Especially when you provide no rationale or reason behind it.
> Perhaps you didn't mean it like that.



I directly quoted an example of a completely unproductive and provocative statement that provided nothing of value to the discussion. The criticisms in the thread have been sprinkled with similar repeated provocations and bitterness.

I see a lot of repeated attempts to discredit and belittle ED any time he raises a counterpoint (the same has never been done back). How is this not problematic to you? The criticisms could have those parts removed and it would turn into a normal discussion. So yes, they are vapid, belligerent statements that are seeking to provoke and create hostility in a topic that otherwise warrants none of it.


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## Erick - BVA (Mar 8, 2020)

neblix said:


> I directly quoted an example of a completely unproductive and provocative statement that provided nothing of value to the discussion. The criticisms in the thread have been sprinkled with similar repeated provocations and bitterness.
> 
> I see a lot of repeated attempts to discredit and belittle ED any time he raises a counterpoint (the same has never been done back). How is this not problematic to you? The criticisms could have those parts removed and it would turn into a normal discussion. So yes, they are vapid, belligerent statements that are seeking to provoke and create hostility in a topic that otherwise warrants none of it.



I just think we need to provide our own reasoning behind things. Just quoting and then belittling people in return is not really the best way to go about it in my opinion.
I thought Lindon made some concessions in his latest post and even said "Let it go" It seemed that the matter was over for him. 
However, addressing at least one of the points, the interface. I think I've gotten so used to it that it doesn't really bother me. But if I were to try to step back and think about it objectively, it really is rather quaint in an aesthetic sense and ergonomical sense. Navigation and selection of parameters, tools, groups, etc is not very forgiving. And because the interface size cannot really be customized in any meaningful sense, clicking through things is a chore. When working with a lot of samples this is a pain. Overall, it feels like an old Waves plugin that hasn't been updated for 10-20 years. 
Even still, I'm kind of in the middle of the road. I just got used to it. So I maybe even dislike a change (because I'd have to learn something new), but I still see the reasoning behind wanting an updated interface.


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## Lindon (Mar 8, 2020)

neblix said:


> Totally balanced criticism, no hyperbole or oversimplification whatsoever. My eyes have been opened, how have I gone so long as an accomplished developer not realizing I have been so offended?
> 
> I think the Kontakt interface is in really poor service to developers, but this isn't a license to just say unfiltered nonsense. There's no reason to respond to a pattern of vapid belligerence with anything besides dismissal. ED offering specific engagement beyond this has been, from an outsider perspective, incredibly generous.


er... Well I said the first quote - but if you think I made the second then you need to go back and re-read who said what - I havent (in this thread) made any specific criticism of NI beyond suggesting I think they havent used their revenues from Kontakt in its, their, or most users interests... you may think that unbalanced.


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## Erick - BVA (Mar 8, 2020)

neblix said:


> My eyes have been opened, how have I gone so long as an accomplished developer not realizing I have been so offended?



I don't think there has been a desire to see you admitting that you've been offended. 
I appreciate the Kontakt platform, and it has literally helped keep me from being homeless. 
But I can also criticize aspects of it at the same time. We can appreciate it and criticize specifics at the same time.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 8, 2020)

Sibelius19 said:


> I don't think there has been a desire to see you admitting that you've been offended.



That was sarcasm


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## Erick - BVA (Mar 8, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> That was sarcasm


I understood that  
But in sarcasm there is truth.

One of the most difficult things about this is we're just typing. 
I'm sure we'd all be having a good time if we talked in person.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 8, 2020)

As long as any sharp objects are not around, perhaps.


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## P.N. (Mar 8, 2020)

Lindon said:


> This is VI Control - its ground zero for NI fanboys, if you criticize Kontakt or (for some) NI then they will construe this as a personal insult against them - this isnt a place where you are going to get a balanced argument



Not with vague quotes like this. I mean...
NI fanboys? Who? People who have an overall positive experience with Kontakt?

Would it be fair to call you and David "HISE fanboys"?
(sorry David, but you had it coming too , and i don't know anyone else...)

The whole thing just sounds pretty silly to me either way...

Maybe it's time to open up a "Kontakt vs HISE" thread.

I personally don't know much about it, and it would be great to see an (hopefully) unbiased database to let users know the limitations of each sampler and decide what's the best for them.

Why am i even talking about HISE? Because in the end, it's always about comparisons, so i say... "let them fight".

I personally don't feel tempted to learn HISE right now because no one requests HISE work and there's a learning curve involved which takes time.

A thread comparing the two could promote HISE, maybe start swaying enough attention so that people actually start requesting it.

If that happens, then, sure, HISE too will get my attention.


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## d.healey (Mar 8, 2020)

P.N. said:


> Would it be fair to call ... David "HISE fanboys"?



Of course it would!



> no one requests HISE work


Ask your client if they would like a totally customisable independent VSTi/AU/Standalone virtual instrument that anyone can use or if they'd like a Kontakt library that only Kontakt users can use.


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## P.N. (Mar 8, 2020)

d.healey said:


> Ask your client if they would like a totally customisable independent VSTi/AU/Standalone virtual instrument that anyone can use or if they'd like a Kontakt library that only Kontakt users can use.



I did, and they said:



Lindon said:


> they will only part with kontakt once they are dead...


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## EvilDragon (Mar 9, 2020)

d.healey said:


> Ask your client if they would like a totally customisable independent VSTi/AU/Standalone virtual instrument that anyone can use or if they'd like a Kontakt library that only Kontakt users can use.



An awful lot of composers love the fact that Kontakt is a hub into their sample library realm. To have each sample library as its own plugin is not always a good thing.


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## Erick - BVA (Mar 9, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> An awful lot of composers love the fact that Kontakt is a hub into their sample library realm. To have each sample library as its own plugin is not always a good thing.


As a user myself I do prefer this. If you have Kontakt, then having a VST for every sound library is overdoing it I think. Having one ecosystem through which all of those sounds can be managed and played it better in my opinion.
However, as a developer, I would like to be able to release VST as well in order to reach more people.
Again, in my view there is not an "either or." Kontakt and HISE can both exist and provide great results for those who use it


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## Lindon (Mar 9, 2020)

P.N. said:


> Maybe it's time to open up a "Kontakt vs HISE" thread.


Oh dear god no lets not do that (again).....

to quote myself;

"So this place is what it is and I've come to the conclusion that to push for anything else is wasting time and energy."

If you want to know more about the capabilities (and failings - there are many) in HISE head over to the forum:









Forum


Welcome to the official HISE Developer Forum. Get in touch with the pro's, and develop your own open-source VSTi.




forum.hise.audio


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## d.healey (Mar 9, 2020)

EvilDragon said:


> To have each sample library as its own plugin is not always a good thing.


There is almost no difference between each VI being a separate NKI or being a sperate plugin. Except, if it's a sperate plugin you can take advantage of your DAWs' plugin browser/organiser, which tend to have more search and filtering options than Kontakt.


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## EvilDragon (Mar 9, 2020)

d.healey said:


> There is almost no difference between each VI being a separate NKI or being a sperate plugin.



Of course there are.



d.healey said:


> Except, if it's a sperate plugin you can take advantage of your DAWs' plugin browser/organiser, which tend to have more search and filtering options than Kontakt.



Except, that very much depends on the DAW, so you again reach inconsistent UX to access all the sample libraries one might own that way, because each DAW handles browsing for content differently (i.e. Live is extremely popular despite its browser being an absolute turd).


There are pros and cons to either method. Consistent UX for accessing your sample libraries matters.


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## Erick - BVA (Mar 9, 2020)

d.healey said:


> There is almost no difference between each VI being a separate NKI or being a sperate plugin. Except, if it's a sperate plugin you can take advantage of your DAWs' plugin browser/organiser, which tend to have more search and filtering options than Kontakt.


I really like the quick load function in Kontakt though, and the ability to pretty much structure that any way I want (but maybe some DAWs allow this much customization in their VST folder structuring?).

Layering sounds is much easier in Kontakt as well, since you're not as limited by routing and MIDI functionality. For instance, laying in a DAW in the same track can cause some VST to not play a sound (sometimes only the first VST will play a sound). Whereas in Kontakt I know that if I load many instruments up, they will all make a sound (multis). And if you do want the kontakt instruments to be in separate tracks, there is the ability to route as well.
But this way I only have a single VST loaded, and am routing to different tracks, rather than having several VST open.


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## d.healey (Mar 9, 2020)

@Sibelius19 Yeah I guess this more comes down to workflow. The DAW I use allows me to easily layer/stack plugins so I've never really used Kontakt for that purpose.


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## P.N. (Mar 9, 2020)

Lindon said:


> If you want to know more about the capabilities (and failings - there are many) in HISE head over to the forum:



You see, that's good.
I didn't even know there was a forum with a growing community like that.



Lindon said:


> to quote myself;
> 
> "So this place is what it is and I've come to the conclusion that to push for anything else is wasting time and energy."



Alright, then maybe it's not a simple question of stacking them against each other then, but more in line with what Sibelius19 is saying here:



Sibelius19 said:


> Again, in my view there is not an "either or." Kontakt and HISE can both exist and provide great results for those who use it



Most composers i know do enjoy the Kontakt infrastructure. 
It's not fanboyism, it's what people i know say.
They don't do their own instruments, worry about groups or scripting. 
They just want to have their stuff organized into an easy to access piece of software.

Others will throw anything at the DAW, no matter were it comes from, sure, but we still need to understand the importance of Kontakt in the matter of unification.

If HISE can provide deep customized products, then it's in its own category and perhaps it's not correct to keep comparing it to Kontakt, one-to-one.

Another point would be, a lot of Kontakt product developers don't have a programming background.
They're musicians first who decided to go a little further learning the features and scripting.

HISE seems to be a lot more complex for anyone without a programming background.
If it could somehow morph into something simpler while maintaining the value of deep customization, we'd probably see a boom of users.

If there was a shell, or something to unify HISE instruments.... A HISE "library manager". 
But the thing is, because it's customizable, i guess there are no rules, thus no standard.
(please someone correct me on this if i'm wrong here, since i know very little about HISE)

This is where Kontakt comes in. Structure and standard.


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## Mike Greene (Mar 9, 2020)

P.N. said:


> Maybe it's time to open up a "Kontakt vs HISE" thread.


That's not a bad idea, although I don't think we'd want to frame it as a "versus" thread. I don't think I'm the only Kontakt developer who's toyed with the idea of creating a library outside of the Kontakt framework. I do have a number of questions, though, and since I imagine many of the HISE-curious share the same questions, a specific thread could be handy. Plus, this discussion is kind of wasted here on page 7 of a thread titled "Embedding Loops Into Samples."

So ... I've started one:





For Those of Us Considering Jumping from Kontakt to HISE


A little background: HISE is an open source framework for creating sample libraries. It seems to have the usual mapping, scripting, and other sampler features we'd see in Kontakt or Falcon or Halion, although probably requiring more effort, since it's designed for developers rather than users...




vi-control.net







Lindon said:


> Oh dear god no lets not do that (again).....
> 
> to quote myself;
> 
> "So this place is what it is and I've come to the conclusion that to push for anything else is wasting time and energy."


Although to be fair, it's usually you who takes the discussions the next step into battle mode.


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## Lindon (Mar 10, 2020)

Mike Greene said:


> Although to be fair, it's usually you who takes the discussions the next step into battle mode.


LOL...


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