# The New Berlin Woodwinds Revive!



## ChristopherDoucet (Oct 21, 2017)

Just saw this! Very cool! I use BWW as my main library so a small upgrade to get rear mics and a bunch of new content is a no brainier for me!


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## Kent (Oct 21, 2017)

Interesting. I wonder how long the crossgrade price is valid for?


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 21, 2017)

ChristopherDoucet said:


> Just saw this! Very cool! I use BWW as my main library so a small upgrade to get rear mics and a bunch of new content is a no brainier for me!



Where did you see that ? Nothing on the site as yet.

I hope that the crossgrade from the original is a permanent offer, as it looks like ARK 3 is on its way....


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## ChristopherDoucet (Oct 21, 2017)

Just saw it in Nov Sound on Sound.


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## N.Caffrey (Oct 21, 2017)

Do you think it'll be possible to have student discount on the crossgrade?


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## mc_deli (Oct 21, 2017)

Is this the most expensive sample library upgrade ever at 199?


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## Lassi Tani (Oct 21, 2017)

N.Caffrey said:


> Do you think it'll be possible to have student discount on the crossgrade?



I think no. Usually discounts cannot be combined.


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 21, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> Is this the most expensive sample library upgrade ever at 199?



Is it an upgrade ? 

50gb of new sample material would suggest it's a little more than an upgrade. However, we'll have to wait and see. I bought BWW about 6 weeks ago, and I really rate it. If they try and put a date deadline on cross grades from the old version I'll be a bit annoyed though.

It seems we'll get the full SP on Wednesday. I hope they have some good videos on it.


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## muziksculp (Oct 21, 2017)

Very excited about this Upgrade for OT-Berlin WW. I'm guessing they will announce it officially on Oct. 24th or 25th. as they discontinue the classic version.


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## Zhao Shen (Oct 21, 2017)

BWW has been the only WW library I've used ever since I got it, so I'm beyond hyped for this...


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## Leon Portelance (Oct 21, 2017)

I have the main library and Exp A, B, C. Looking forward to this.


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## Hat_Tricky (Oct 21, 2017)

will it still have the nifty pictures of the performers? I always thought that was a really neat and interesting thing to do.


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## jon wayne (Oct 21, 2017)

Hat_Tricky said:


> will it still have the nifty pictures of the performers? I always thought that was a really neat and interesting thing to do.


I asked a similar question. I started with exp B, about the time of Capsule. Just bought BWW. I have never had any of the nice graphics. Did Capsule replace the old GUI totally?


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## C-Wave (Oct 21, 2017)

jon wayne said:


> I asked a similar question. I started with exp B, about the time of Capsule. Just bought BWW. I have never had any of the nice graphics. Did Capsule replace the old GUI totally?


Yes


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## Hat_Tricky (Oct 22, 2017)

C-Wave said:


> Yes



what a shame. that was a great touch to have pictures of the performers. i wonder why they got rid of it?


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## Architekton (Oct 22, 2017)

Hat_Tricky said:


> what a shame. that was a great touch to have pictures of the performers. i wonder why they got rid of it?



Why would I have to look at someone each time I open BWW Kontakt template?


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## N.Caffrey (Oct 22, 2017)

Hat_Tricky said:


> what a shame. that was a great touch to have pictures of the performers. i wonder why they got rid of it?


I agree with you, I've always enjoyed it


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## camelot (Oct 22, 2017)

Maybe the new capsule look is less heavy on RAM from the graphics side, as it has already quite some heavy RAM consumption in general. It seems to have much more areas of even color that could be realized without pixel graphics. But I don't know the options to realize graphics in Kontakt.


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## Rodney Money (Oct 22, 2017)

Hat_Tricky said:


> what a shame. that was a great touch to have pictures of the performers. i wonder why they got rid of it?


I asked them about this one time also, and they said something of the lines of some of the performers did not want their pictures on there, so they decided to remove them all.


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## W Ackerman (Oct 22, 2017)

Regarding graphics/images in Kontakt instrument UIs: screen real estate is so limited in the puny Kontakt window that I don't want to see a single pixel that doesn't help me control the instrument. Capsule performance view could use controls/labels that are a little larger, but I've gotten used to that. Pictures of performers are nice, I guess, but I'd rather have developers use that space for something truly useful - or nothing at all.


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## jamwerks (Oct 22, 2017)

Not sure that Capsule demands more cpu or ram than other Kontakt user interfaces. It probably depends more on number of voices, etc. And rest assured, those lovely Berlin flute player photos don't change anything...


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## Zhao Shen (Oct 22, 2017)

A bit astounded at how little attention this is getting. 50 GB of new samples for one of the best, if not the best, woodwind libraries on the market. Meanwhile, the generic Spitfire teaser that sounds like everything else they've made recently is still going strong...


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## Vik (Oct 22, 2017)

I guess Spitfire threads get more response because there may be Spitfire "followers" here than OT followers, which again probably is a result of SFs past as being quite active here (posting news, teasers, special offers, walkthroughs etc). It probably also has to do with the fact that OT hasn't announced the new WWs on their homepage yet - or posted any demos.


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## JW (Oct 22, 2017)

Zhao Shen said:


> A bit astounded at how little attention this is getting. 50 GB of new samples for one of the best, if not the best, woodwind libraries on the market. Meanwhile, the generic Spitfire teaser that sounds like everything else they've made recently is still going strong...



Completely agree with you, Zhao Shen! 50GB of new samples! I’m really excited about this library. I’m on board all the way with OT.


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## C-Wave (Oct 22, 2017)

JW said:


> Completely agree with you, Zhao Shen! 50GB of new samples! I’m really excited about this library. I’m on board all the way with OT.


I’m wondering, 
1. New library says 50GB of new content and this probably include the alto flute.
2. Legacy WW standard library is 73GB.
3. All new purchases will include legacy WW as well, AS PER THE MAGAZINE AD.

I’m guessing this new library is borrowing some of the legacy WW samples.. suspense!


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## muziksculp (Oct 22, 2017)

C-Wave said:


> I’m wondering,
> 1. New library says 50GB of new content and this probably include the alto flute.
> 2. Legacy WW standard library is 73GB.
> 3. All new purchases will include legacy WW as well, AS PER THE MAGAZINE AD.
> ...



Interesting, so I'm still confused, is the new Berlin Revive Woodwinds an upgrade, meaning it will add to the Legacy version, or is it a complete replacement for the Legacy version, but has less content ? 

Hopefully we will know soon.


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## jamwerks (Oct 22, 2017)

C-Wave said:


> I’m guessing this new library is borrowing some of the legacy WW samples.. suspense!


It's 9 all new instruments, no borrowing.


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## hawpri (Oct 22, 2017)

jamwerks said:


> It's 9 all new instruments, no borrowing.


Is there an instrument list anywhere yet?


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## Vik (Oct 22, 2017)

jamwerks said:


> It's 9 all new instruments, no borrowing.


According to the text in the picture in the first post, there are 8 fully rerecorded instruments + a new alto flute. But there are 'newly captured' note attacks. Maybe they use some of the note attacks from the previous version?


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## ModalRealist (Oct 22, 2017)

My guess is that all new recordings are just for the new instruments, which will be "on par" with the functions of BST/BBR, but that there will be some clever reprogramming/new patches for the old instruments that will update them as well (e.g., combining playable runs and legato into performance legato, maybe with attacks made out of existing sfz samples) so that they offer similar functionality as the new instruments but without dedicated samples for all those functions.


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## jamwerks (Oct 22, 2017)

If it says "newly captured", they're obviously new. What's so hard to understand? They are new mic positions, you can't combine samples with other perspectives.


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## muziksculp (Oct 22, 2017)

@ Vic, thanks for posting a large version of their Revive advert. 

So it says " The Purchase of BWW Revive will also contain BWW Legacy, (The full original Berlin Woodwinds)" 

I guess Revive is replacing, and adding quite a bit to the Legacy version ! So, maybe no point in keeping the Legacy version, if I buy Revive. 

My excitement for this library is growing by the hour


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## C-Wave (Oct 22, 2017)

@jamwerks, it’s all in the semantics, to elaborate:
notice that in the ad, the first line says “8 fully re-recorded instruments..”, then the very last line describing content says “over 50 GB of ***new*** sample material”. Nowhere they’re saying ***all*** sample material. So the keyword here is NEW. So the 50GB do not constitute all the sample material; just the newly recorded part.


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## jamwerks (Oct 22, 2017)




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## muziksculp (Oct 22, 2017)

Based on the OT- Revive Advert. 

*Revive* will offer *50 GB (New Content) + 73 (Legacy Content) = 123 GB *


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 22, 2017)

The 2TB SSD drive I bought last month seems to be getting smaller by the hour.......


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## galactic orange (Oct 22, 2017)

mikeybabes said:


> The 2TB SSD drive I bought last month seems to be getting smaller by the hour.......


Ugh, exactly. Must every holiday season be ushered in by a requisite SSD purchase? I'm beginning to think so.


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## Soundhound (Oct 22, 2017)

I hear you. I keep wondering if I maybe put my ssds in the wash because they're shrinking so much.



mikeybabes said:


> The 2TB SSD drive I bought last month seems to be getting smaller by the hour.......


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Oct 22, 2017)

I still don't understand how they are going to handle this? Is half the wind library going to work with the rest of the Berlin series and the rest not so much? You certainly can't just _add _another mic position unless they already had one up their sleeve that they disregarded initially. Or have they manipulated/re-mixed the old samples?


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## lp59burst (Oct 22, 2017)

If the new version contains all of the existing BWW product why buy the legacy version now unless that's all you want and don't intend to get BWW "Revive"?

If I'm doing the math correctly the on-sale BWW Legacy + BWW Revive CG combined price is €1 less than buying just the full version of BWW Revive when available - or am I missing something?


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## Mihkel Zilmer (Oct 22, 2017)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> I still don't understand how they are going to handle this? Is half the wind library going to work with the rest of the Berlin series and the rest not so much? You certainly can't just _add _another mic position unless they already had one up their sleeve that they disregarded initially. Or have they manipulated/re-mixed the old samples?



If what you describe is in fact the case, then I bet it won't be long until people start demanding that the two be split and offered separately, as some new customers won't see the point in owning both, especially if the older half doesn't fully match the rest of the series (or the new woodwinds).

Maybe they used some of their Teldex IRs to simulate more mic positions for Legacy?


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## bap_la_so_1 (Oct 22, 2017)

Wish they would release 'lite' version of their libs, which include only tree/close mics


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## galactic orange (Oct 22, 2017)

Well, including both seems like the way to please the most people. All your old patches will be there and will be compatible with your tracks. Since OT have made the original BWW, might as well throw those in there for new purchasers, right?

I was a bit harsh in my criticisms of Revival in another thread, but 50GB of new content is very nice if you intend to use this with the rest of the Berlin series. OT would probably charge the same price whether the old content was included or not. I'm really glad they're just treating this as an addition rather than a replacement. Use the old patches with your other libraries. Use the new content with your other Berlin stuff.


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## shnootre (Oct 22, 2017)

I wonder if somewhere in that 50gb they managed to add flutter tongue.


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## Simon Ravn (Oct 22, 2017)

Very exciting! 199 for 8 all new instruments (unless they are all kazoos) is a steal.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Oct 22, 2017)

shnootre said:


> I wonder if somewhere in that 50gb they managed to add flutter tongue.


They do in the SFX expansion


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## Silence-is-Golden (Oct 23, 2017)

Allthough they have made good products, like the current woodwinds ( which is part of my template) , for me they have created libs with less consistency and quality.
Surely not meaning they have bad quality but f.e. compare first chairs legato and sound of OT with CSSS and to me it is clear which stands out.

Berlin brass will also have its merits but I have heard and read about various issue’s of this lib that all in all I am less tempted to keep going the OT route.

So far CSOrchestra will look more appealing. When late this year the brass will be released ( hopefully) we may have a good idea how this virtual orchestra will start to sound.


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## Lode_Runner (Oct 23, 2017)

lp59burst said:


> If the new version contains all of the existing BWW product why buy the legacy version now unless that's all you want and don't intend to get BWW "Revive"?
> 
> If I'm doing the math correctly the on-sale BWW Legacy + BWW Revive CG combined price is €1 less than buying just the full version of BWW Revive when available - or am I missing something?


Thanks for spotting that. Takes the pressure off, at least til Nov 8.


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## Lee Blaske (Oct 23, 2017)

Anyone have any idea on what happens to WW Expansion A, B, C and D?


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## jamwerks (Oct 23, 2017)

When Revive comes out, would be a good time for OT to give incentives for buying the expansions. Revive + Expansion D would make for a pretty complete WW section.


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## Paul T McGraw (Oct 23, 2017)

What about Capsule?


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## C-Wave (Oct 23, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> What about Capsule?


Huh!! You and I my friend are apparently in the rare minority who really want to use OT libraries in an orchestral setup.. I think if the community would really care to send enough messages to OT THEN maybe.. one day:( its evident from the 2.5.4 update that nothing is changing in the near future.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Oct 23, 2017)

It is a real shame that they cannot sell the Clearance deal they have right now at a realistic clearance price.

Full price this would cost Europeans (myself in the UK), €549 for the library, core only
As such the so-called clearance price is only €120 less. For a library that is half a grand I do not see €120 off as a clearance price at all.

Then if I do get this, precisely a week later they are going to release Revive for another €199, which will be €230+ after VAT

So either wait and get it for €600+, or get it now and the pay the same. Not really a clearance.
I see some of these companies rinse their customers even with deals now


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 23, 2017)

People seem to get so hung up on new stuff. You don't HAVE to buy it. A week ago, if you had asked about the top woodwind libraries, and the conventional wisdom on the forums is either Berlin or VSL.

Just because there is an upgraded version in the offing, didn't suddenly make the original version rubbish all of a sudden. In fact, I'm likely not to go for the upgrade just now as I find the current version to be pretty excellent.

So phrase it like this - one of the best Woodwind libraries out there for 349.00 - a saving of 100.00. What's the problem with that ?


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Oct 23, 2017)

mikeybabes said:


> People seem to get so hung up on new stuff. You don't HAVE to buy it. A week ago, if you had asked about the top woodwind libraries, and the conventional wisdom on the forums is either Berlin or VSL.
> 
> Just because there is an upgraded version in the offing, didn't suddenly make the original version rubbish all of a sudden. In fact, I'm likely not to go for the upgrade just now as I find the current version to be pretty excellent.
> 
> So phrase it like this - one of the best Woodwind libraries out there for 349.00 - a saving of 100.00. What's the problem with that ?


Oh it is not that. It is that this is only the Core library as well.
So for the price you are only getting the base of everything.

I have Hollywood Woodwinds through Composer Cloud Plus, but always looked for something with more realism. Waited for what must be 4 years now to get BWW, the day comes, the saving is not that great.
Just a disappointment is all. Seems you have to get yourself into debt to get the good stuff, which is not an ecosystem I am ever going to subscribe to.


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## Ihnoc (Oct 23, 2017)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> It is a real shame that they cannot sell the Clearance deal they have right now at a realistic clearance price.
> 
> Full price this would cost Europeans (myself in the UK), €549 for the library, core only
> As such the so-called clearance price is only €120 less. For a library that is half a grand I do not see €120 off as a clearance price at all.
> ...


I hear you to an extent, especially the travesty that is 20% 'value added' tax. I'd value knowing exactly what is new in this 'Revival' edition as to why it is something I'd pick up, besides Alto Flute. I look at it this way - the quality bar in Berlin Woodwinds is now available for less than it normally would be (where Orchestral Tools don't do sales normally) and until I need more woodwind content, this clearance will do nicely.


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## C-Wave (Oct 23, 2017)

If you also have the “legacy” exp A then you better factor in a future “revive” version for that as well in the near future.


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## ModalRealist (Oct 24, 2017)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> Oh it is not that. It is that this is only the Core library as well.
> So for the price you are only getting the base of everything.
> 
> I have Hollywood Woodwinds through Composer Cloud Plus, but always looked for something with more realism. Waited for what must be 4 years now to get BWW, the day comes, the saving is not that great.
> Just a disappointment is all. Seems you have to get yourself into debt to get the good stuff, which is not an ecosystem I am ever going to subscribe to.



BWW's core library is all you need. Two of the expansions are soloists recorded in a solo booth, so totally unrelated; another is SFX, which only a subset of people need—and it's the most thorough WW SFX offering which isn't "mega epic"; and that just leaves EXP A which only contains a few additional instruments (which you could easily substitute in from Hollywood).

The core library itself is by far the most detailed and thorough WW package. I think only VSL competes, and BWW still wins there on its part-writing capabilities. There's just no other library out there that lets you properly mix a part-written voice-led WW choir. End of.

100% BWW is the best money I ever spent on samples; and I was and still am a student on baked beans and scrambled eggs. I can't think of any other library (including other OT ones) with which I have been so pleased/satisfied.


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## N.Caffrey (Oct 24, 2017)

ModalRealist said:


> BWW's core library is all you need. Two of the expansions are soloists recorded in a solo booth, so totally unrelated; another is SFX, which only a subset of people need—and it's the most thorough WW SFX offering which isn't "mega epic"; and that just leaves EXP A which only contains a few additional instruments (which you could easily substitute in from Hollywood).
> 
> The core library itself is by far the most detailed and thorough WW package. I think only VSL competes, and BWW still wins there on its part-writing capabilities. There's just no other library out there that lets you properly mix a part-written voice-led WW choir. End of.
> 
> 100% BWW is the best money I ever spent on samples; and I was and still am a student on baked beans and scrambled eggs. I can't think of any other library (including other OT ones) with which I have been so pleased/satisfied.


Agree, although lately I've been thinking I'd rather have had a Bass Clarinet than the 3rd flute. I think a Bass Clarinet should be in the main library.


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## Hat_Tricky (Oct 24, 2017)

I'm curious if (when you buy Revive) the BWW legacy is simply the same in kontakt (like its own card and menu on the left)

OR

if it will be a subset or tucked away in a sub folder marked (legacy) in the new Revive's card and menu?

If you already have BWW, will it stay the same as a seperate self contained library?


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## JeremyWiebe (Oct 24, 2017)

After being really tempted to add BWW to my collection (i've already got brass) at this reduced price, I've decided to hold given that it'll still be available as part of BWW Revive and that the savings from either buying the old library now and upgrading or buying the whole package at once when it comes out will only be 15% off the list price. Even then I'd still probably do it had I not completely blown my budget last year, but as things are now, I've got too many samples and not enough time to explore all of them. Plus if Metropolis Ark 3 comes out I may want to buy that instead, especially since the introductory sales for those libraries are usually really good offers. I'll be content knowing that I can still get the original BWW and the new instruments in BWW Revive for a slightly higher price down the road.


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## PaulieDC (Oct 24, 2017)

JeremyWiebe said:


> After being really tempted to add BWW to my collection (i've already got brass) at this reduced price, I've decided to hold given that it'll still be available as part of BWW Revive and that the savings from either buying the old library now and upgrading or buying the whole package at once when it comes out will only be 15% off the list price. Even then I'd still probably do it had I not completely blown my budget last year, but as things are now, I've got too many samples and not enough time to explore all of them. Plus if Metropolis Ark 3 comes out I may want to buy that instead, especially since the introductory sales for those libraries are usually really good offers. I'll be content knowing that I can still get the original BWW and the new instruments in BWW Revive for a slightly higher price down the road.



I had that same conversation with myself just a little while ago, lol. I already own Hollywood and Symphonic Orchestras so I have two decent WW libraries (oh, then there's the lite version in Komplete 11 Ult), and in the end the full price of the 2017 BWW is only $100 more than the upgrade path. So I made a goal: create a new, successful project that garners some decent income and then go for the new BWW when I have cash in hand. I do believe that BWW 2017 and both EastWest libraries together would be quite an robust WW library going forward.

Now, if the Clearance was $199 or the upgrade was free, then yeah, I'd take the leap. Clearly the concept of Clearance Sale pricing is vastly different here in the States, lol.


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## markleake (Oct 24, 2017)

I had the opposite approach... I took the rare opportunity while it was on sale, as I've been working more with woods in my existing libraries recently and have discovered their limitations. I have Hollywood and Spitfire woods, but yeah, there are somethings even the Spitfire lib just doesn't do well. So I was at some point going to have to make the jump anyway for something better. Even though it is still expensive I went for it... I'm now officially an OT fanboy. 

I figure also this gets me partly in, and will be plenty for the moment. If the Revive version turns out to be fantastically attractive, I can fork out for the upgrade and won't be any further behind where I would be anyway. Plus I had a €50 voucher from Inspire to bring it down in price a bit anyway.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Oct 24, 2017)

markleake said:


> I have Hollywood and Spitfire woods, but yeah, there are somethings even the Spitfire lib just doesn't do well.


Maybe because Spitfire winds has 2.3 articulations per instrument


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## PaulieDC (Oct 24, 2017)

markleake said:


> I had the opposite approach... I took the rare opportunity while it was on sale, as I've been working more with woods in my existing libraries recently and have discovered their limitations. I have Hollywood and Spitfire woods, but yeah, there are somethings even the Spitfire lib just doesn't do well. So I was at some point going to have to make the jump anyway for something better. Even though it is still expensive I went for it... I'm now officially an OT fanboy.
> 
> I figure also this gets me partly in, and will be plenty for the moment. If the Revive version turns out to be fantastically attractive, I can fork out for the upgrade and won't be any further behind where I would be anyway. Plus I had a €50 voucher from Inspire to bring it down in price a bit anyway.



Thanks a lot Mark, now you've got me reconsidering the deal, lol!


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## jacobthestupendous (Oct 24, 2017)

I don't have any woodwinds besides the Kontakt Factory Library and the prearranged ones that came with Albion I (oldschool), so I've had my eyes on BWW for years. Since the price went down a bit before going up bigtime probably forever, I took the leap. I was saving that money for some other things that will have to wait longer, but I'm happy to have what has been and will continue to be a great, pro-level WW library at a price that wasn't comfortable, but it was possible.


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## JonSolo (Oct 24, 2017)

And you will not regret it. These are some of the finest sounds in any library. They just happen to be woodwinds. This library serves so much of a good purpose I have no idea if I will upgrade to the next level or not. These have done well.


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## markleake (Oct 24, 2017)

JonSolo said:


> And you will not regret it. These are some of the finest sounds in any library. They just happen to be woodwinds. This library serves so much of a good purpose I have no idea if I will upgrade to the next level or not. These have done well.


I'm so hoping this is true with my new purchase!! (I am still downloading... I have very slow internet).
As a wood player, my experience of woodwind libraries hasn't been to all that fantastic so far. So I'm really crossing my fingers that Berlin will solve the issues I have with the other ones.


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## markleake (Oct 24, 2017)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Maybe because Spitfire winds has 2.3 articulations per instrument


I kind of agree, yes. But it's not just that. Both the solo concert flute and the clarinet I have problems with the tone, and they just aren't agile enough to do what you really want and need from them. Arpeggiated lines can sound quite bad, and although I'm not expecting something all that great, I was expecting *some* ability for the Spitfire library to manage that.


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## JeremyWiebe (Oct 24, 2017)

Man some of these comments are making me tempted again. The option to get BWW, an acclaimed library, at a lower price and then have the option to upgrade later. I've found I've pushed the limits of Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds, so I know my mock-ups would really benefit from it. Might just pull the trigger...


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## artomatic (Oct 24, 2017)

JeremyWiebe said:


> Man some of these comments are making me tempted again. The option to get BWW, an acclaimed library, at a lower price and then have the option to upgrade later. I've found I've pushed the limits of Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds, so I know my mock-ups would really benefit from it. Might just pull the trigger...



I done it (again)!


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## Hat_Tricky (Oct 24, 2017)

is the 199 crossgrade price good past the intro period? or will that go up as well, I wonder.


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## JeremyWiebe (Oct 24, 2017)

Hat_Tricky said:


> is the 199 crossgrade price good past the intro period? or will that go up as well, I wonder.


I wonder too. If you buy at the clearance and you're locked in for the 199 crossgrade, it be a shame not too...


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## JeffvR (Oct 25, 2017)

It's here


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## Pablocrespo (Oct 25, 2017)

I like it! but I think we should start rewarding developers that offer long customer loyalty crossgrade discounts (like Cinematic Studio series).

I think Revive will have a month long crossgrade only (december)


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## N.Caffrey (Oct 25, 2017)

Ok. Not getting this, as Flute 1, Clarinet 1 and Bassoon 1, the instruments I use the most from BWW, have not been re-recorded.


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## procreative (Oct 25, 2017)

Three things bothering me:

1. As per poster above, main instruments have not been re-recorded so they have inconsistent articulations and possibly Mic positions to the others eg no Marcato.
2. Progressive Vibrato has been removed from the newly recorded instruments.
3. Its really not clear enough what is different for existing owners, eg what has been improved?

I am starting to worry about the trend for paid updates, Devs like Project Sam continue to add content at no charge, but OT are following the Spitfire trend to repackage existing titles.

The time limited Crossgrade is also I feel to short a time to fully evaluate how worthwhile the new version is.


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## NoamL (Oct 25, 2017)

The sound is great but how is this going to work? 4 winds with one set of mics and articulations and 9 winds with another set of mics and articulations?

EDIT: I just noticed that there is one demo with the new six-mic setup (Close1, Close2, ORTF, AB, Tree, Surround) that features the bassoons ORTF mic. But the video also says the Bassoons have NOT been rerecorded? Have OT just had six-mic recordings of Berlin Winds forever and not released them???


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## markleake (Oct 25, 2017)

NoamL said:


> The sound is great but how is this going to work? 4 winds with one set of mics and articulations and 9 winds with another set of mics and articulations?
> 
> EDIT: I just noticed that there is one demo with the new six-mic setup (Close1, Close2, ORTF, AB, Tree, Surround) that features the bassoons ORTF mic. But the video also says the Bassoons have NOT been rerecorded? Have OT just had six-mic recordings of Berlin Winds forever and not released them???


That's effectively what they commented in the commercial thread, yes. They have used additional mic recordings from the original sessions.


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 25, 2017)

N.Caffrey said:


> Ok. Not getting this, as Flute 1, Clarinet 1 and Bassoon 1, the instruments I use the most from BWW, have not been re-recorded.



Well as they were the standouts of the old library, I’m glad they have not seem fit to redo them and mess up the best instruments of the lot.

I remember when Albion One came out - I much prefer the original rather than the, ahem, ‘improved one’.


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## NoamL (Oct 25, 2017)

So if OldBWW Flute II & III are in Revive, do they have the 2 mic or 6 mic setup?? In theory they could update them to 6 right? A lot of work though...


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## N.Caffrey (Oct 25, 2017)

mikeybabes said:


> Well as they were the standouts of the old library, I’m glad they have not seem fit to redo them and mess up the best instruments of the lot.
> 
> I remember when Albion One came out - I much prefer the original rather than the, ahem, ‘improved one’.


That's true, and I'm very happy with BWW. But after 5 years I was thinking maybe they would have made them better. Never mind, I'll keep using them. As I said, the only bummer is not to have an alto flute and a bass clarinet in the main library. Other than that I'm very happy with it


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 25, 2017)

I've done a few good deals this month, so I've decided, what the hell...., so I've bought the thing. As is so often the case, I don't really need it as the old one is very good.

Looking forward to when it has finished downloading.


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## madfloyd (Oct 25, 2017)

Wait a sec... the original library did NOT have an oboe or a piccolo? Aren't they pretty vital woodwind instruments? Instead they provided an extra bassoon? Am I missing something?


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## prodigalson (Oct 25, 2017)

my understanding is that even though they didn't re-record those 4 instruments they have re-edited and programmed them from the ground up with their latest legato scripts. They also will have a variety of new attacks. AND they have created six mic positions from the original sessions so, to me, it does sound like an improvement on the original BWW. 

Along with the 8 other completely re-recorded instruments it does sound like a different library.


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## Craig Sharmat (Oct 25, 2017)

I am really liking Revive. One of the best things about it if one only has the original BWW is the improvement of the oboe and English Horn. I ended up purchasing the expansion B which covered those instruments well as they sounded better than the original BWW ones. The new collection if made available originally would have stopped me from purchasing B though there is some versatility in B instruments I would miss. There are other improvements but that is one that stands out.


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## storyteller (Oct 25, 2017)

prodigalson said:


> my understanding is that even though they didn't re-record those 4 instruments they have re-edited and programmed them from the ground up with their latest legato scripts. They also will have a variety of new attacks. AND they have created six mic positions from the original sessions so, to me, it does sound like an improvement on the original BWW.
> 
> Along with the 8 other completely re-recorded instruments it does sound like a different library.


I don’t think they are “re-programmed” per se. I think the 2.2 update to BWW added whatever improvements they were making to the instruments. OT said that pre-existing owners would need to download REVIVE only (and install it in the BWW folder). That sounds like they may have new patches to take into account the new mic positions, but I don’t think there is new scripting. I could be wrong. Haven’t upgraded yet. Actually... still a bit baffled over the value of the new instruments compared to the older ones (for my personal compositions). I like change, but with BWW, everything seems pretty darn perfect as is. My perspective is that it is a $199 upgrade for an alto flute (again - for me at least). Or, I suppose I could now have an army of 6 flutes in an orchestration. Ha??  Maybe that could be cool. Orchestral piece for 6 part flutes + 2 piccolos. I like OT and I think that either the sale-price of the legacy or the early bird buy-in is a must for those that don’t have the library though!


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## AoiichiNiiSan (Oct 25, 2017)

madfloyd said:


> Wait a sec... the original library did NOT have an oboe or a piccolo? Aren't they pretty vital woodwind instruments? Instead they provided an extra bassoon? Am I missing something?



The original featured 2 oboes and a piccolo.


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## BL (Oct 25, 2017)

Clarinet 1 is a combination of old and new?


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## madfloyd (Oct 25, 2017)

AoiichiNiiSan said:


> The original featured 2 oboes and a piccolo.



Oh, the Revive introduction seemed to indicate otherwise. Thanks.


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## VinRice (Oct 25, 2017)

BL said:


> Clarinet 1 is a combination of old and new?



Typo - should be Clarinet 2 on the right.


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## Seycara (Oct 26, 2017)

Just tested everything out, legatos and new recordings sound great. However my gripe is that everything is only two dynamic levels now (p, FF) and does not have mf which is really quite unfortunate.


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## jon wayne (Oct 26, 2017)

That is the case with Inspire. I find things like the piano and snare almost unusable because of the lack of mf. If that is true with Revive, I think I will stick with the original BWW.


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## C-Wave (Oct 26, 2017)

Seycara said:


> Just tested everything out, legatos and new recordings sound great. However my gripe is that everything is only two dynamic levels now (p, FF) and does not have mf which is really quite unfortunate.


That couldn’t be.. I mean this is not inspire! If that is truly the case OT would be shooting themself in the foot, unless you’re missing something.. Can you please double check?
I was very close to placing the order today!


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## Seycara (Oct 26, 2017)

C-Wave said:


> That couldn’t be.. I mean this is not inspire! If that is truly the case OT would be shooting themself in the foot, unless you’re missing something.. Can you please double check?
> I was very close to placing the order today!



No mistake, all the re-recorded instruments are in p and FF, no mf.


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## NoamL (Oct 26, 2017)

????

I'm 90% sure that Old BWW has 3 dynamic layers for legatos (p mf ff) and 2 (mf ff) for other articulations.

Can you confirm New BWW has only 2 dynamic layers for legatos??


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## The Darris (Oct 26, 2017)

Seycara said:


> No mistake, all the re-recorded instruments are in p and FF, no mf.


Look on the bright side, at least they got that extra close mic. Haha. Yeah, I'm still downloading now (Continuata is a pain in the ass). The fact that their video introduction said they pride themselves on having a "consistent set of articulations" across the instrument yet this "revive" doesn't maintain that statement is frustrating. I love the sound of the bassoons from the original but I sure would have enjoyed having some fresh new Bassoon samples with those marcatos and different sustain attacks.....and adaptive legato. On the plus side, when using just one mic positions, we won't have to worry about that shotty phasing in their mix mics. Love the original but also hated parts of it too. I learned how to work around the weaknesses, I'm hoping this new one will be better in some ways though. That way, I can exploit the best of both.


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## prodigalson (Oct 26, 2017)

for me, on first glance I feel good about it. Theres no doubt that the extra mic positions add a huge amount of sonic flexibility and depth of the woodwind soundstage. If your template is based around the berlin series then I think that this would be a very welcome addition as the winds definitely seeming further back and even with the close mics don't sound quite as close as the mix mic in the original BWW. 

The good news is, if you don't like it, you still have all your previous patches. if you want a WW sound that is a bit more realistic and balanced relative to the rest of the series then you have that too.


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## Seycara (Oct 26, 2017)

NoamL said:


> ????
> 
> I'm 90% sure that Old BWW has 3 dynamic layers for legatos (p mf ff) and 2 (mf ff) for other articulations.
> 
> Can you confirm New BWW has only 2 dynamic layers for legatos??



Confirmed.


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## NoamL (Oct 26, 2017)

Uh oh. That was my least favorite feature of Berlin Orchestra Inspire. I guess I'll hold tight for Cinematic Studio Winds. Thanks for confirming these details.


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## The Darris (Oct 26, 2017)

Has anyone gotten through the download only to have Continuata hang after installing the instruments zip?


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## JeremyWiebe (Oct 26, 2017)

I'm not a purchaser, but it looks like the new Clarinet 1 has three dynamic layers for legatos and four layers for sustains. All the other new instruments have just two layers across all articulations. The OT help desk breaks it all down: http://www.helpdesk.orchestraltools.com/ag_berlin_woodwinds_revive_articulations.html
*
*


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## galactic orange (Oct 26, 2017)

JeremyWiebe said:


> I'm not a purchaser, but it looks like the new Clarinet 1 has three dynamic layers for legatos and four layers for sustains. All the other new instruments have just two layers across all articulations.


Intriguing. I wonder what the motive behind this choice was: Don't have to worry about phasing as much on clarinet as you do with other instruments? Playability? Space-saving?


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## JeremyWiebe (Oct 26, 2017)

galactic orange said:


> Intriguing. I wonder what the motive behind this choice was: Don't have to worry about phasing as much on clarinet as you do with other instruments? Playability? Space-saving?


I think in general fewer dynamic layers, and for woodwinds in particular, seems to be line with OT's philosophy on minimizing phasing. I recall in older videos on the Capsule system they made a point about how Capsule allowed you to use just one dynamic layer for a woodwind sus patch while turning on the custom EQ filter to add dynamic range.

As for Clarinet, I think maybe it is harder to get a smooth crossfade with fewer dynamic layers. I know from Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds, the Clarinets have some of the weakest crossfades in that library.


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## C-Wave (Oct 26, 2017)

JeremyWiebe said:


> I think in general fewer dynamic layers, and for woodwinds in particular, seems to be line with OT's philosophy on minimizing phasing. I recall in older videos on the Capsule system they made a point about how Capsule allowed you to use just one dynamic layer for a woodwind sus patch while turning on the custom EQ filter to add dynamic range.
> 
> As for Clarinet, I think maybe it is harder to get a smooth crossfade with fewer dynamic layers. I know from Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds, the Clarinets have some of the weakest crossfades in that library.


Seems they could achieve with Capsule what they couldn’t do in the pre-capsule era when WW 1.0 was recorded.k


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## lucor (Oct 27, 2017)

I mean, only 2 dynamic layers sounds bad on paper, but is it really? For example I can't hear much of a drastic timbral change in the mid dynamics of a flute.
Can anyone who has already downloaded and played with Revive chime in if there is an actual audible problem with it?


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## Rasmus Hartvig (Oct 27, 2017)

lucor said:


> I mean only 2 dynamic layers sounds bad on paper, but is it really? For example I can't hear much of a drastic timbral change in the mid dynamics of a flute.
> Can anyone who has already downloaded and played with Revive chime in if there is an actual audible problem with it?



I just had a very brief play around with it, and my initial impression is that it works beautifully. They must be doing some trickery under the hood, because it sounds and works way better than two dynamic layers has any right to.


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## Mihkel Zilmer (Oct 27, 2017)

I've only spent about 45 minutes playing a few patches and comparing them to Legacy, so my opinion is likely to change, but here are some initial thoughts:

- Revive is *a lot* quieter than Legacy, which in theory should make it balance nicely with brass & strings now.
- Comparing the dynamic and timbre range of the older instruments (p+mf+ff) to the newer ones (just p+ff, except for clarinet) leaves me with mixed feelings. On one hand the new dynamic crossfades are mostly very smooth, but I feel like perhaps we've lost some character as a trade-off.
- Also, I understand why having fewer dynamic layers for long notes requiring crossfades might be a good idea, but why do the short articulations also only have 2? That feels like a bit of a shortcut..
- More distant mic positions do place the instruments more in the center of the stereo field, whereas the Legacy ones are panned very wide. Nothing stopping you from panning the close mics of Revive as wide as that of course..
- I'm finding the upgraded old instruments don't quite match the re-recorded new ones. Flute 1 with just Tree mic at 0db sounds considerably louder and closer than flutes 2 or 3 (difference of about 4db to 6db while playing staccatissimo notes at the same dynamics). Same deal with clarinets - again just using tree mics at 0db - 1 (new) has way more ambience and sounds further away than 2 (old). So don't expect to load just the tree mics for everything and be good to go - you're mostly likely going to want to add and tweak mic positions.
- Articulations between old (re-mixed for Revive) and new (re-recorded for Revive) instruments are pretty inconsistent too, some examples:
New instruments have multiple note attacks (soft, immediate, strong), but old ones are stuck with a single attack.
New instruments have 2 vibrato styles, old ones have 3.
New ones have marcatos of two different lengths, whereas the older ones have sforzando instead.
New ones have 16th and triplet repetitions, old ones have double and triple tongue.
Alto flute feels like a bit of an afterthought with only a fraction of articulations available compared to others.​
There's a lot to like here. There are clear improvements in programming, some of the re-recorded instruments are sonically an improvement on the previous versions (while others I think I will keep using alongside Revive). But the one thing that I've appreciated about Orchestral Tools products in the past is consistency across instruments. And I'm sorry to say this has got to be the least consistent library of theirs to date. Don't get me wrong, I think that they have put a lot of effort into unifying it all as best they can, but there are some strange omissions and they do make me wonder what exactly the decision making process behind them was...

Perhaps once I've spent longer with the library I will feel differently, but for now, while I really like some of the new instruments and will definitely use them, all of the Legacy BWW is going to stay in my template as well. Having more choices is always a good thing in my book.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Oct 27, 2017)

Mihkel Zilmer said:


> I've only spent about 45 minutes playing a few patches and comparing them to Legacy, so my opinion is likely to change, but here are some initial thoughts:
> 
> - Revive is *a lot* quieter than Legacy, which in theory should make it balance nicely with brass & strings now.
> - Comparing the dynamic and timbre range of the older instruments (p+mf+ff) to the newer ones (just p+ff, except for clarinet) leaves me with mixed feelings. On one hand the new dynamic crossfades are mostly very smooth, but I feel like perhaps we've lost some character as a trade-off.
> ...



I mean from OTs walkthrough video those new woodwinds seem to sound really great. But I don´t know maybe when I would be OT I would have just recorded a new product sequel like BWW 2 with such a setup, but with more dynamic layers and so. It seems like that they werent sure which direction to go really, like just to go for the regular update..or a big re-recording thing. And it is always not easy to mix such old recordings which has a total different approach and setup to mix with the new. That never goes quite that well. But I still think that their new WW Update sounds great. I would offer the updated library as a single product with a price and the old one as the legacy product as well. So ..you beat two clients with that..everybody can decide if they buy the old one or the new library..I don´t know why that should be such of a thing? Both libraries seem to be great, so there is place for both and selling both seperately would definitely work also.


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## Mihkel Zilmer (Oct 27, 2017)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I mean from OTs walkthrough video those new woodwinds seem to sound really great. But I don´t know maybe when I would be OT I would have just recorded a new product sequel like BWW 2 with such a setup, but with more dynamic layers and so. It seems like that they werent sure which direction to go really, like just to go for the regular update..or a big re-recording thing. And it is always not easy to mix such old recordings which has a total different approach and setup to mix with the new. That never goes quite that well. But I still think that their new WW Update sounds great. I would offerr the updated library as a single products and the old one as the legacy product. So ..you beat two clients with that..the old ones..can decide if they buy and a new buy can just buy the new library..I don´t know why that should be such of a thing? Both libraries seem to be great, so there is place for both.



I've just edited my post to more clearly reflect than when I say "old", I mean re-mixed for Revive and "new" ones are the ones they completely re-recorded. 

I like your suggestion of not mixing the two into a single product called Revive. But if they were to release only the new instruments separately then we would get only 2 flutes, 1 clarinet and no bassoons at all... Which isn't really a complete woodwinds library on its own and therefore would not appeal to many customers. Why they didn't go the extra mile to record those instruments again, who knows..


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Oct 27, 2017)

Mihkel Zilmer said:


> I've just edited my post to more clearly reflect than when I say "old", I mean re-mixed for Revive and "new" ones are the ones they completely re-recorded.
> 
> I like your suggestion of not mixing the two into a single product called Revive. But if they were to release only the new instruments separately then we would get only 2 flutes, 1 clarinet and no bassoons at all... Which isn't really a complete woodwinds library on its own and therefore would not appeal to many customers. Why they didn't go the extra mile to record those instruments again, who knows..


 <---Yes..this is exactly my thoughts..I don´t know what they were thinking..


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## The Darris (Oct 27, 2017)

Mihkel Zilmer said:


> I've only spent about 45 minutes playing a few patches and comparing them to Legacy, so my opinion is likely to change, but here are some initial thoughts:
> 
> - Revive is *a lot* quieter than Legacy, which in theory should make it balance nicely with brass & strings now.
> - Comparing the dynamic and timbre range of the older instruments (p+mf+ff) to the newer ones (just p+ff, except for clarinet) leaves me with mixed feelings. On one hand the new dynamic crossfades are mostly very smooth, but I feel like perhaps we've lost some character as a trade-off.
> ...


The irony is that their introduction video claims to have "articulation consistency" and that Berlin Woodwinds Revive has "been lifted to those standards." I don't consider this false advertising but it certainly is not true. It's one thing if they port over a few instruments but still have a completely new set of instruments but the Bassoons are the total black sheep of this library. Nothing new for those. 

This library is very quiet which makes for odd gain management. I don't like using plugins to boost my track volumes but with the Tree mics all the way up and an added 6 db on the Kontakt instruments, I'm almost up to the default volume of the original. So, this library will certainly take some time for me to balance everything out. 

The Alto Flute is definitely an after thought, like you said. So much so that it might even have some issues. I'm still testing and working things out but twice now, just shortly after loading the Alto Flute Multi patch into my daw, I will be in the middle of tweaking its settings and it freezes my system up. This has happened two different times now. A 3rd time almost happened but it unfroze after about 2 minutes. My system is very stable. This is the only thing I've added to my template environment in the past month so, you do the math. I will keep testing before I submit a ticket. 

Lastly, can you test out the Alto Flute legato releases? Some of them are very inconsistent and very late. It's almost as if I'm getting a tenuto re-attack of the note (depending on the note). So far, I'm not too sure if the cross-grade price was reasonable considering what we did not get with this revive. 

Best,

C


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## Mihkel Zilmer (Oct 27, 2017)

The Darris said:


> Lastly, can you test out the Alto Flute legato releases? Some of them are very inconsistent and very late. It's almost as if I'm getting a tenuto re-attack of the note (depending on the note).



Which patch is that? I'll be back at the studio in a little while and can give it a try then.


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## The Darris (Oct 27, 2017)

Mihkel Zilmer said:


> Which patch is that? I'll be back at the studio in a little while and can give it a try then.


I was using the Multi-patch and the legato articulation loaded by default.


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## wbacer (Oct 27, 2017)

Downloading now at 7.2 Mbps and I have 100 GB down. Add in all of the time when Connect stalls and at this rate, it will be out of date before it downloads.


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 27, 2017)

Weird - when I downloaded the 5ogb update patch it was as smooth as butter, and I got it downloaded in an hour or so....


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## z.langlumos (Oct 27, 2017)

Anyone found that in the walk through video, the new flute 2 legato patch doesn't have the adaptive slow/runs option like flute 1 and 3? So no playable runs for flute 2? 
Also since flute 1 is from the legacy library, there's attack control right? Hmmm, weird that they said they kept the articulations consistent.......


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## The Darris (Oct 27, 2017)

z.langlumos said:


> Anyone found that in the walk through video, the new flute 2 legato patch doesn't have the adaptive slow/runs option like flute 1 and 3? So no playable runs for flute 2?
> Also since flute 1 is from the legacy library, there's attack control right? Hmmm, weird that they said they kept the articulations consistent.......


Correct, Flute 2 does not have the adaptive Legato speeds. It just has the one legato type. It's not stated anywhere as to why but my guess is that they wanted to provide something simple for lyrical writing and Flute 3 is for the more versatile Flute lines. Either way, consistent....it is not. Also, Flute 1 does not have the different attacks as it was from the original library.


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## z.langlumos (Oct 27, 2017)

The Darris said:


> Correct, Flute 2 does not have the adaptive Legato speeds. It just has the one legato type. It's not stated anywhere as to why but my guess is that they wanted to provide something simple for lyrical writing and Flute 3 is for the more versatile Flute lines. Either way, consistent....it is not. Also, Flute 1 does not have the different attacks as it was from the original library.


thanks for confirming that anyway I love the tone and balance but this revive is very confusing compare to other Berlin series libraries. Don’t know what Exp A revive is gonna be like but I bet it’s gonna be kind of confusing too lol.


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## The Darris (Oct 27, 2017)

z.langlumos said:


> thanks for confirming that anyway I love the tone and balance but this revive is very confusing compare to other Berlin series libraries. Don’t know what Exp A revive is gonna be like but I bet it’s gonna be kind of confusing too lol.


Given what I paid for to cross-grade to Revive, I hope they just do a microphone foldout of the Expansions and do it as a free update. I'm a little bummed at the cost of this cross-grade and lack of consistency they've promoted it to have.


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## Mihkel Zilmer (Oct 27, 2017)

The Darris said:


> Lastly, can you test out the Alto Flute legato releases? Some of them are very inconsistent and very late. It's almost as if I'm getting a tenuto re-attack of the note (depending on the note).



Tried it. Yes, some of the releases sound sluggish to me, either a bit late or a bit too loud. Nothing shockingly offensive, but maybe I didn't quite find the ones you mentioned?


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## The Darris (Oct 27, 2017)

Mihkel Zilmer said:


> Tried it. Yes, some of the releases sound sluggish to me, either a bit late or a bit too loud. Nothing shockingly offensive, but maybe I didn't quite find the ones you mentioned?


If I made it sound worse than that, that wasn't my intention. You've defined the issue much better than me, haha. I will add that to my list then.


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## Mihkel Zilmer (Oct 27, 2017)

The Darris said:


> If I made it sound worse than that, that wasn't my intention. You've defined the issue much better than me, haha. I will add that to my list then.



Haha no not at all, I was just prepared for the worst I guess!


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## Zhao Shen (Oct 27, 2017)

Revive certainly sounds gorgeous, but I have to agree with a lot of people citing the issues with just two dynamic layers, especially for the shorts. It just feels lazy, which is not a word I have ever associated with Orchestral Tools.

I might hold off on crossgrading because I'm already extremely content with the content in BWW Legacy, and don't see how any of the new content in Revive would benefit my compositions. Plus, I'm very curious to see how Alex handles Cinematic Studio Woodwinds.


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## NoamL (Oct 27, 2017)

my guess/opinion - they decided not to do a complete redo because any 2.0 product would cannibalize their own sales and because there is unfortunately relatively lower demand for realistic orchestral woodwinds than the other sections. So they said "What can we afford to do" and the end result is this.


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## erica-grace (Oct 27, 2017)

Well, isn't this a disappointment?



NoamL said:


> my guess/opinion - they decided not to do a complete redo because any 2.0 product would cannibalize their own sales and because there is unfortunately relatively lower demand for realistic orchestral woodwinds than the other sections. So they said "What can we afford to do" and the end result is this.



You are probably right about that, but AFAIAC, you either do it right, or you don't do it at all.


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## jamwerks (Oct 27, 2017)

Probably a tough call for OT on just what to do. Revive was probably the less worst option. I'm liking what I hear so far, too bad for some of the inconsistencies art wise, but we'll have to think of these as 3 real flute players who don't all have the same chops! 

There will always be more upcoming libraries, notably Syncron WW but it may be a few years before we have complete sections and Berlin will do the job until then. I also like the that Revive + Ext A & D is complete instrument & art wise.


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## sin(x) (Oct 28, 2017)

After spending a night downloading and a day adding it to my template, I'm not sure yet what to make of Revive. It's definitely not a drop-in replacement for the old library – for starters, the volume relations are WAY different, to the point where I needed to boost everything by insane amounts to make it play with the expansions and the rest of my template. In the short time I got to actually play around with it yesterday, I noticed that a lot of the instruments tend to sound a bit blurry and diffuse in the lower third of the dynamics range, even if I generously add close mics. I didn't realize that the instruments lost their mf layer until I read about it here, and I'm thinking that could be a result of it. Also, no more mixed channel means there's no way around using at least 2 mics to get anything like the original sound; I've settled on a combo of Close, ORTF and Decca mics for now, but I'm not sure my computer will be able to take it in a busy arrangement. And the articulation lists seem a bit spotty as well – no more sforzando?

Those are my earliest impressions and it's very much possible I'll warm up to the library, but for the time being I'm kinda chiding myself for not holding out for some substantial reviews before boarding the upgrade train. Time-limited upgrade offers suck! (And yes, I say that mostly because they work on me.)


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## N.Caffrey (Oct 28, 2017)

sin(x) said:


> After spending a night downloading and a day adding it to my template, I'm not sure yet what to make of Revive. It's definitely not a drop-in replacement for the old library – for starters, the volume relations are WAY different, to the point where I needed to boost everything by insane amounts to make it play with the expansions and the rest of my template. In the short time I got to actually play around with it yesterday, I noticed that a lot of the instruments tend to sound a bit blurry and diffuse in the lower third of the dynamics range, even if I generously add close mics. I didn't realize that the instruments lost their mf layer until I read about it here, and I'm thinking that could be a result of it. Also, no more mixed channel means there's no way around using at least 2 mics to get anything like the original sound; I've settled on a combo of Close, ORTF and Decca mics for now, but I'm not sure my computer will be able to take it in a busy arrangement. And the articulation lists seem a bit spotty as well – no more sforzando?
> 
> Those are my earliest impressions and it's very much possible I'll warm up to the library, but for the time being I'm kinda chiding myself for not holding out for some substantial reviews before boarding the upgrade train. Time-limited upgrade offers suck! (And yes, I say that mostly because they work on me.)


Thanks for sharing. Have to say I'm very disappointed and glad I didn't get it!


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## Ihnoc (Oct 28, 2017)

I've only picked up the legacy library recently due to the "clearance" sale, but after reading the commments on Revive I'm glad I did.

Since Alto Flute is the new instrument, is perhaps Expansion B the more characterful and consistent purchase over the upgrade to Revive?


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## sin(x) (Oct 28, 2017)

Ihnoc said:


> is perhaps Expansion B the more characterful and consistent purchase over the upgrade to Revive?



Characterful: Yes. There are some of the best solo woodwinds I've heard. The clarinet especially is a MAJOR improvement over the ones in BWW, which sound pretty… prosaic in comparison, and the english horn makes my shriveled black heart grow three sizes.

Consistent: Nope. At least not with the original library. The instruments have a very different mic setup, the Teldex sound comes from an IR, and they behave very differently than the original instruments. There's no "static" sustain, every long note has either a crescendo or decrescendo built in. The legato also responds a bit more sluggish, so fast lines will often require some editing to get the timing right. Worth it though!


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## markleake (Oct 28, 2017)

This is useful info. I too am glad I picked up the legacy woods rather than waiting.

I had my eye on Expansion B, but instead I bought the Auddict deal on VSTBuzz and will see how I go with that first (downloading still... very slow internet here in Oz). It doesn't have Alto Flute or Bass Clarinet, but sounds very good in the demos. Plus I already have the Fluffy Audio Clarinet which is excellent for solos, so I'm not sure I really need Exp B now. I'm surprised OT don't have more demos for these libraries. The Exp B demos only have the double reeds (well mostly), which is odd... makes it very hard to make a real evaluation of them.


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## rottoy (Oct 28, 2017)

markleake said:


> This is useful info. I too am glad I picked up the legacy woods rather than waiting.
> 
> I had my eye on Expansion B, but instead I bought the Auddict deal on VSTBuzz and will see how I go with that first (downloading still... very slow internet here in Oz). It doesn't have Alto Flute or Bass Clarinet, but sounds very good in the demos. Plus I already have the Fluffy Audio Clarinet which is excellent for solos, so I'm not sure I really need Exp B now. I'm surprised OT don't have more demos for these libraries. The Exp B demos only have the double reeds (well mostly), which is odd... makes it very hard to make a real evaluation of them.


The only thing that I covet from Berlin Woodwinds EXP B is the oboe. 
That tone is still the best thing I've heard when it comes to sampled oboes, but I can't justify the price.


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## markleake (Oct 28, 2017)

Oboe is one of those odd instruments that never sounds especially great when sampled. Clarinet is hard also, although I think a few VSTs have succeeded at getting the clarinet sounding pretty good now. Still waiting for oboe... :(


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## aaronventure (Oct 28, 2017)

markleake said:


> Oboe is one of those odd instruments that never sounds especially great when sampled. Clarinet is hard also, although I think a few VSTs have succeeded at getting the clarinet sounding pretty good now. Still waiting for oboe... :(



http://bit.ly/2hlnf7o

http://bit.ly/2gSBHXl

SWAM Oboe


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## Babe (Oct 28, 2017)

Does anyone know if the upper range of the clarinets have been extended? In the original, the top note is (I think) E or E-flat 5 and the trills even lower. The range of the clarinets was my only complaint about the library.


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## scorefrog (Oct 29, 2017)

aaronventure said:


> http://bit.ly/2hlnf7o
> 
> http://bit.ly/2gSBHXl
> 
> SWAM Oboe



W O W! This Sample Modeling stuff never ceases to surprise me. Thx for that share.
Btw. what strings were you using (sry for the kind of off-topic but I think it's yet on topic enough


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## aaronventure (Oct 29, 2017)

scorefrog said:


> W O W! This Sample Modeling stuff never ceases to surprise me. Thx for that share.
> Btw. what strings were you using (sry for the kind of off-topic but I think it's yet on topic enough



I'm sorry to disappoint but these aren't mine, I just linked some Oboe demos from the official http://www.samplemodeling.com/en/demos_doublereeds.php (Double Reeds page) :D


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## scorefrog (Oct 29, 2017)

aaronventure said:


> I'm sorry to disappoint but these aren't mine, I just linked some Oboe demos from the official http://www.samplemodeling.com/en/demos_doublereeds.php (Double Reeds page) :D


Oh Ok! Great stuff anyway :D


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## Leandro Gardini (Oct 29, 2017)

It seems you guys are not very happy with the first version of Revive but at the same time I still see great potential to this library, so, i must ask.
Besides the inconsistency of articulations, what do you think CANNOT be improved with future updates?


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## noxtenebrae17 (Oct 29, 2017)

Babe said:


> Does anyone know if the upper range of the clarinets have been extended? In the original, the top note is (I think) E or E-flat 5 and the trills even lower. The range of the clarinets was my only complaint about the library.



Both clarinets up to a G on every articulation (so about a third higher than before)


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## Mihkel Zilmer (Oct 29, 2017)

leogardini said:


> It seems you guys are not very happy with the first version of Revive but at the same time I still see great potential to this library, so, i must ask.
> Besides the inconsistency of articulations, what do you think CANNOT be improved with future updates?



You're right, there's a lot of good things in Revive already, and most of what's missing or slightly wonky could be fixed.
Orchestral Tools used to show a lot of drive to constantly improve their releases, but that was a long while back. Lately though their updates and fixes seem to materialize much slower - which I am sure is a side-effect of having a much bigger catalogue of products. I think it's somewhat unlikely that they will book more recording sessions to fill in the missing articulations, but I really hope I am wrong. Also, that's actually exactly what they did back for BWW original 1.5 upgrade (they added measured trills, staccatissimo, more runs, etc.).

But apart from filling in articulations (and polishing the existing instruments a bit more), these are the main problems for me:
- significant difference in sound between re-mixed and re-recorded instruments (try a triad on 3 flutes and see how it balances..)
- the missing dynamic layer (or two). I absolutely can't understand why shorts only have p and ff. And like I said above, while the long notes now have buttery smooth crossfades thanks to only 2 dynamic layers, they also feel a bit less "human" and almost too smooth. What you get is a sonically pleasing, smooth, well-behaved, but slightly boring sound that has less focus and character.
- I am hesitant to add this to a list of issues, because it's down to preferences, needs and ... choice - but to me *some* of the new instruments suffer a bit from the same thing that Berlin Brass does - the highest dynamic layer is a bit restrained. I was comparing the legato between the Legacy flute 2 and the newly recorded flute 2 - the ff in Legacy just has more intention and is bolder and more outspoken. In Revive, it really sounds more like f. I can understand why - because it blends really well with the p layer and allows for smooth crossfades. But the overall dynamic range of the instrument is then also smaller.

All of the above is from the point of view where these samples will end up in the final product, where character, musicality and intention are very important. But if all you need to do is provide mock-ups for directors and it'll all get replaced by real players anyway then BWW Revive is already nearly perfect.


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## noxtenebrae17 (Oct 29, 2017)

I'll throw in my two cents:

Revive is a nice little addition to my already throughly crowded woodwinds libraries (VSL, BWW, CineWinds, Spitfire Symphonic Winds, and a few more). My orchestral template before revive was primarily a combination of Spitfire and BWW with CineWinds for solo oboe and solo flute (Cinesamples' 1.6 update made that library completely different). For me, Revive simply adds a few more options to my template, which is always welcome. 

*The Great*
- New Flutes are terrific. Blend very well together and are very playable
- The English Horn is a massive improvement. The original BWW EH was pretty abysmal.
- The extra mics add a lot of clarity to the sound.

*The Good*
- The new Clarinet 1 is very nice.
- The marcato articulations have a more defined attack and sound great when combined with runs-legato transitions.
- The oboes are very good and a nice improvement over the previous ones. I still think I'll use them more in orchestrated sections though as I really like CineWinds Solo Oboe 2 for solos.
- Alto Flute is nice, even though its one of the least used instruments in my template.

*The Meh*
- New Piccolo is okay, but has no real fortissimo or forte dynamic. Softest piccolo in my entire template. Really confused by that.
- The two dynamic levels - To me, this isn't as big a deal as people are making it out to be. With exception of a couple instruments, I find the dynamic range to be good enough for 90% of what I need it to do. And the crossfading between the dynamics is actually REALLY well done.

*The Bad*
- No playable runs for Flute 2. Why not?
- Doesn't include Expansion A. I feel like this would have been a smart move on OT's part. I mean, it's only 3 instruments and probably would have convinced several people to jump in.

I have no regrets getting Revive. It adds just a bit more to an already full template.


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## Zhao Shen (Oct 29, 2017)

Ahhhh I want to snag Revive so much because I greatly admire OT and especially BWW. I just...can't...seem...to do it. It wasn't very noticeable with the flutes, but I think the double reeds video really highlights the flaws with the approach of only sampling 2 dynamic layers. Sure, the cross-fading is excellent, but the cross-fading on most libraries with 3+ dynamic layers is also excellent. It just feels weird to hear an oboe playing at medium loudness but with a soft timbre.


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## The Darris (Oct 29, 2017)

leogardini said:


> It seems you guys are not very happy with the first version of Revive but at the same time I still see great potential to this library, so, i must ask.
> Besides the inconsistency of articulations, what do you think CANNOT be improved with future updates?


RAM & CPU efficiency of CAPSULE.


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## lp59burst (Oct 29, 2017)

Zhao Shen said:


> Revive certainly sounds gorgeous, but I have to agree with a lot of people citing the issues with just two dynamic layers, especially for the shorts. It just feels lazy, which is not a word I have ever associated with Orchestral Tools.
> 
> I might hold off on crossgrading because I'm already extremely content with the content in BWW Legacy, and don't see how any of the new content in Revive would benefit my compositions. Plus, I'm very curious to see how Alex handles Cinematic Studio Woodwinds.


I agree it sounds "gorgeous" but I don't own BWW Legacy so no "cross-grade" for me and with the stronger Euro this year compared to last it's more than I want to spend right now.

I'm with you on waiting a bit to explore more options.

I already have SF SWW and I'm going to get Auddict's "Master Solo Woodwinds Bundle" for $99 to tide me over  until either CSWW comes out and/or the US Dollar gets stronger and...


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## Rasmus Hartvig (Oct 30, 2017)

The Darris said:


> RAM & CPU efficiency of CAPSULE.


On the contrary, I would say that the efficiency of CAPSULE would be a prime candidate for future improvements. OT's instruments are among the most memory hungry ever, and Spitfire's engine can do the same - more or less - with a way lower memory footprint.

So it should be within the realm of the possible. If OT wants to - or is able to with it's current staffing - I'm less sure of. When I inquired about the large memory footprint of 100% purged patches, the answer was along the lines of "It's a very advanced player. All those options require lots of resources. Nothing we can do about that".

In that case, my biggest wish (except for more dynamic layers for everything) is for OT to begin including "light" patches where the comprehensive mapping of CCs with custom curves and other "clever" stuff has been stripped out. I'm pretty sure there's a lot of low hanging fruit that could be pruned from CAPSULE to make the patches lighter.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Oct 30, 2017)

Rasmus Hartvig said:


> On the contrary, I would say that the efficiency of CAPSULE would be a prime candidate for future improvements. OT's instruments are among the most memory hungry ever, and Spitfire's engine can do the same - more or less - with a way lower memory footprint.
> 
> So it should be within the realm of the possible. If OT wants to - or is able to with it's current staffing - I'm less sure of. When I inquired about the large memory footprint of 100% purged patches, the answer was along the lines of "It's a very advanced player. All those options require lots of resources. Nothing we can do about that".
> 
> In that case, my biggest wish (except for more dynamic layers for everything) is for OT to begin including "light" patches where the comprehensive mapping of CCs with custom curves and other "clever" stuff has been stripped out. I'm pretty sure there's a lot of low hanging fruit that could be pruned from CAPSULE to make the patches lighter.


On the flip side, VSL's player is far far more powerful for a fraction of the memory


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## Hendrik-Schwarzer (Oct 30, 2017)

Thanks for all the feedback so far!

With Revive we gave Berlin Woodwinds a huge upgrade. The sound of the new instruments is extremely good and it made sense to us to replace the weaker instruments. On the other hand, there were some really unique and timeless instruments in the Legacy collection, like our Flute 1, which has the loveliest sound, I every encountered in a sampled flute. Obviously we cannot reproduce that sound or add new articulations to that instrument, as the recordings were done in 2011.

Over the past years we developed and changed our view on orchestral sampling. We don't want to look at numbers, when it comes to technical aspects like dynamic layers. We think it is important to find a good balance in content. Flutes and Oboes don't have that much of a dynamic range compared for example to a Clarinet (where have 3 layers also on the new one). So we thought: Lets ditch the 3rd layer and do more articulations instead. We think more articulations like different sustains (with different vibrato intensities and attacks) and a collection of short notes is more important than a third dyn layer, if it doesn't do much of a difference anyway (compare the Flutes and Oboes from the Legacy library to the new ones and you'll hear).

Of course you could ask: Why not do both? Why not do more layers and more articulations? The answer is simply: Based on sales and the current market we have to end up with a competitive price. In this situation e.g. it made completely sense to reduce dynamic layers on instruments for what we would end up with phasing problems anyway (esp when dynamic ranges are small) instead of rising production costs.

But why not focus more on the positive things: The things you get with this collection, instead of looking at the things, you might not get:

Revive not only has different recorded Attacks on sustains, it also offers marcatos as a sharper alternative to the softer portato articulations which I used a lot over past years.
Not to mention that we re-edited all the older instruments from the legacy BWW version from scratch and raised them to a whole new quality level.
The editing process within our company was vastly improved over the last years and is way more accurate, when it comes to sample start and releases and the whole processing of samples (tuning, resampling,...). We also improved all the legatos on the older instruments which you definitely should try out.

The new and additional mic perspectives offer more flexibility and unity within the whole Berlin Series. You‘re now able to mix in surround sound and all the woodwinds are sitting on the correct position within the room. You‘re anyway free to do your own blend between the ambient tree and surround and the more direct perspectives like ORTF and Close. Mic positions might be a difficult topic for some composers, but if you reach a certain level of quality in production, they are not only nice-to-have... they are necessary. Just one little mention: In the mixing process, mic positions are the most useful tool in organizing and cleaning the mix and make it big and transparent... more important than EQ, reverb or whatever processing you want to make. Ask any orchestral mixing engineer.

By the way: It was mentioned Berlin Woodwinds Revive is very quiet, compared to the Legacy library: That is true. The reason is, because its now naturally balanced with the other collections. If you for example play a Flute from BWW together with a Trumpet from BBR, they have the correct volume balance (considered, you use the same room mic positions like Tree, AB and SURROUND).

With the idea of upgrading BWW with stunning new instruments that replace the weaker ones (simply compare the older English Horn with the new one or the Oboes) but also preserving and updating the best instruments from the legacy version we certainly end up with some inconsistencies.

If we went the other way and did a completely new BWW collection from scratch, that would have meant a new full price library for everyone, which we didn't consider to be the optimal solution. We wanted a fair upgrade option for our users and at the same time raising the value of this collection. Our tools are designed for professional composers, who want to use our collections for many years. That's why we keep updating and improving. Thats the first time, we did a payed upgrade of one of our libraries, simply because it is by far the largest update, we ever did. 

All the best,

Hendrik


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## Mihkel Zilmer (Oct 30, 2017)

Hendrik-Schwarzer said:


> With the idea of upgrading BWW with stunning new instruments that replace the weaker ones (simply compare the older English Horn with the new one or the Oboes) but also preserving and updating the best instruments from the legacy version we certainly end up with some inconsistencies.
> 
> If we went the other way and did a completely new BWW collection from scratch, that would have meant a new full price library for everyone, which we didn't consider to be the optimal solution. We wanted a fair upgrade option for our users and at the same time raising the value of this collection.



Thanks for chiming in Hendrik! Always great to hear directly from the developer. 

I suspected that the biggest question you were asking yourselves while planning Revive was always: "Is it financially viable for both us and our users?". I am sure I am not alone in saying that your customers definitely appreciate that sort of consideration. Everybody wins from Orchestral Tools putting out new awesome libraries.

As you pointed out, mixing the old with the new is guaranteed to introduce inconsistencies. I know that those inconsistencies (alongside with a slightly limited dynamic range, but again, for rather obvious reasons) are the main source of my own grievances with Revive.

You see - in my opinion you had one of the best woodwinds libraries on the market in the form of BWW Legacy (_partly because it was so consistent.._). BWW Revive was a new opportunity to make a product that would be superior to any of its competitors. Personally I am saddened that there is not enough financial reason or backing to fully reach that goal, but I also completely understand that for most people a very detailed woodwinds library is a niche product.

I really appreciate all your hard work - you have given us some nice gems in the new library and definitely put a lot of effort into trying to unify everything under the new label of Revive. 

I wish you all the luck in your future endeavours (any chance for an update to First Chairs soon?), and I am looking forward to Metropolis 3.


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## desert (Oct 30, 2017)

Hendrik-Schwarzer said:


> If we went the other way and did a completely new BWW collection from scratch, that would have meant a new full price library for everyone, which we didn't consider to be the optimal solution. We wanted a fair upgrade option for our users and at the same time raising the value of this collection. Our tools are designed for professional composers, who want to use our collections for many years. That's why we keep updating and improving. Thats the first time, we did a payed upgrade of one of our libraries, simply because it is by far the largest update, we ever did.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Hendrik



Thanks, for the update, Hendrik. 

Does this mean Revive will never be sold separately?


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## The Darris (Oct 30, 2017)

Hendrik-Schwarzer said:


> Thanks for all the feedback so far!
> 
> With Revive we gave Berlin Woodwinds a huge upgrade. The sound of the new instruments is extremely good and it made sense to us to replace the weaker instruments. On the other hand, there were some really unique and timeless instruments in the Legacy collection, like our Flute 1, which has the loveliest sound, I every encountered in a sampled flute. Obviously we cannot reproduce that sound or add new articulations to that instrument, as the recordings were done in 2011.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your comments Hendrik but one of the issues that you didn't really clear up was the inconsistency of articulations just within the Revive instruments. I'm well aware of the Legacy instruments not being consistent but the Alto Flute? This is a completely new instrument and you guys left out a lot of articulations. 

Staccato
Marcato Long
Marcato Short
Repetitions 16th
Repetitions Triplets
TO Trills HT-4th
TO Trills Single
TO Trills Sfz

What about Runs/Fast Legato for Flute 2?

Note about Alto Flute - I understand if you guys think that the Alto Flute is only used for solo lines but what about composers who write rep for Flute players and want to write a piece that explores the capabilities of that instrument? Seems like you guys missed a lot on that one.

Also, which Clarinet is the one ported over? Both have Marcato Long and Short articulations which weren't in the original so did you actually re-record those specifically for this or did you guys rename those articulations incorrectly in the Clarinet 2 patches? 

Also, why wasn't at least 1 bassoon recorded for Revive? It would have been great to have gotten an upgraded one just for those new articulations and sustain attacks. 

Thanks,

Chris


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## Hendrik-Schwarzer (Oct 31, 2017)

Hi Chris,

we consider the Alto Flute to be an additional doubler instrument. Things like Marcato and Sfz are difficult and not practical to execute on this instrument, especially in the low register, where the timbre of the instrument is most effective. So we concentrated on the lyrical side of it and did the most useful of our articualtion catalogue.

The first Clarinet of BWW Revive is new - the 2nd Clarinet is the first Clarinet from BWW Legacy. You can see that in the Introduction video.

Considering the runs for the 2nd Flute... stay tuned 

All the best,

Hendrik


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## noxtenebrae17 (Oct 31, 2017)

Hendrik-Schwarzer said:


> Considering the runs for the 2nd Flute... stay tuned



Whahoo! This was my one confusion about the library.

Great job on the library Hendrik. Really enjoying having some terrific new options in my template!


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## lucor (Nov 4, 2017)

Hendrik-Schwarzer said:


> By the way: It was mentioned Berlin Woodwinds Revive is very quiet, compared to the Legacy library: That is true. The reason is, because its now naturally balanced with the other collections. If you for example play a Flute from BWW together with a Trumpet from BBR, they have the correct volume balance (considered, you use the same room mic positions like Tree, AB and SURROUND).


I'm a big fan of your products, but I have to say this really leaves a sour taste in my mouth. 1-2 years ago I decided to spend all my saved money (which was a tremendous amount for a student like me) on acquiring the Berlin Orchestra, and one of the main reason why I went with your products (apart from the IMO best sound in the business and great scripting) was the advertised balance throughout the whole orchestra. I immediately noticed that something was way off with the woods though. I'm happy that this is supposed to be fixed, but the fact that as of now I'll have to pay another 200€ (or even the full price if I don't get it within the next 2 months) to get something that was advertised to be there years ago is disappointing to say the least.
Do you plan on updating the legacy BWW to have the correct balances?


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## C-Wave (Nov 4, 2017)

.. so:
Anybody can compare the new Revive articulations and dynamic layers with VSL Woodwinds? Thx.


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## C-Wave (Nov 4, 2017)

lucor said:


> Do you plan on updating the legacy BWW to have the correct balances?


I think this is it Lucor.


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## jamwerks (Nov 4, 2017)

There was an update to BWW legacy just before Revive came out so there may be some volume changes there. If not that's pretty easy to change in your template. Alternatively you can also resave the Kontakt instruments with different gain settings.


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## lucor (Nov 4, 2017)

jamwerks said:


> There was an update to BWW legacy just before Revive came out so there may be some volume changes there. If not that's pretty easy to change in your template. Alternatively you can also resave the Kontakt instruments with different gain settings.


I don't have the reference recordings they used to set the correct volumes, so I don't know what values to set them to. If it were so easy it wouldn't have played a part in my purchasing decision (and we wouldn't have all those endless discussions about balancing your template). Apart from that they also include the correct dynamic ranges of the instruments, which requires to go under the hood and can't be achieved by just setting the volume in the DAW.


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## kinginknyc (Nov 27, 2017)

The Darris said:


> Has anyone gotten through the download only to have Continuata hang after installing the instruments zip?


YES !!!!!! what is the fix .... manual install?


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## galactic orange (Dec 28, 2017)

Still on the fence... trying to rationalize the Revive upgrade as being worth it since I use classic BWW with non-OT libraries primarily. But I can't afford more of the Berlin series at this point and I'm thinking this is a sign that now might be a good time to step away from the edge. Are Revive purchasers impressed by the updated features, articulations, mic positions?


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## Leon Portelance (Dec 28, 2017)

I’m still on the fence too.


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## JohnBMears (Dec 28, 2017)

galactic orange said:


> Still on the fence... trying to rationalize the Revive upgrade as being worth it since I use classic BWW with non-OT libraries primarily. But I can't afford more of the Berlin series at this point and I'm thinking this is a sign that now might be a good time to step away from the edge. Are Revive purchasers impressed by the updated features, articulations, mic positions?



Since I use Berlin Brass I decided to go ahead with REVIVE this past week. In line with Berlin Brass, the articulations are more standardized and the mic positions are very great to have. In my opinion ww's (when writing orchestral bed parts) do not need tons of dynamic layers so this makes REVIVE pretty easy out of the box. I do think that there are oddities with the 'ret-conned' instruments that were re-engineered to fit the newly recorded ones. Check out the attached image and you'll see that there is inconsistency within the articulations. I would have paid extra to have it all newly recorded and also had the ensembles re-done (which they didn't do with REVIVE). 

One example is that the old Portato long/short of Flute 1 are not congruent with the Marcato long/short of Flute 2. Found that out during a mock up this week.

I wouldn't say I'm unhappy with my REVIVE purchase, I just think it went 80% of the way to what I was hoping for.

The sound is even and it balances out of the box. Folks who use BST and BBR, it's a no brainer.


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## storyteller (Dec 28, 2017)

*I think it is extremely unfortunate and disrespectful to customers* that the upgrade/crossgrade is a limited-time offer. I completely understand new releases having a time-locked entry price. I also understand that companies do not have to extend loyalty upgrade pricing at all. But regardless of the quality and work that went in it, the unfortunate appearance for users who do not have unlimited cash flow is: "Give me your money now. Like we mean it... or else you are no longer a valued customer. We are more important financially than any of your other commitments, so budget carefully so you can give us more money by EOY 2017."

For users who are not cash-strapped, it comes across as, "Hey. You have some extra money. We deserve it. Look what we did. We gave you something that gives you a few new perks and it keeps money coming in for us. Win-win, right?" Not really, though. 

Maybe more importantly for OT, it gave them justification to raise their BWW base price (which is understandable comparing how low BWW was compared to other OT libraries and compared to the market). However, there is no way around the fact that it has the unfavorable appearance of a money-grab... speaking purely of the business decision itself.

In my earlier post, I was extremely complimentary of OT, and I will continue to be. I'm a very happy BWW user and this upgrade deadline does not dissuade me from continuing to be a happy BWW user. In fact, I don't have any desire to look elsewhere for woodwinds and would recommend BWW any day of the week. Orchestral Tools is an incredible company with extremely hard working and respectable people running the helm. It is just a terrible business decision and one that makes me not want to support that mindset with my wallet. I said the same thing with iZotope and I have not upgraded any products since their O8N2 pricing debacle. I've spent many thousands of dollars (tens of thousands even maybe?) in the last few years specifically on sample libraries and plugins. But, as a BWW legacy user, do I need revive? Nope. Can I pay for it? Yep. But I really do believe in not feeding into a one-sided business decision like this. Hopefully OT will come around on it. Until then, it seems like it will remain BWW legacy and the current expansions for me.


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## C-Wave (Dec 28, 2017)

JohnBMears said:


> Since I use Berlin Brass I decided to go ahead with REVIVE this past week. In line with Berlin Brass, the articulations are more standardized and the mic positions are very great to have. In my opinion ww's (when writing orchestral bed parts) do not need tons of dynamic layers so this makes REVIVE pretty easy out of the box. I do think that there are oddities with the 'ret-conned' instruments that were re-engineered to fit the newly recorded ones. Check out the attached image and you'll see that there is inconsistency within the articulations. I would have paid extra to have it all newly recorded and also had the ensembles re-done (which they didn't do with REVIVE).
> 
> One example is that the old Portato long/short of Flute 1 are not congruent with the Marcato long/short of Flute 2. Found that out during a mock up this week.
> 
> ...



Tested with Single and Multi articulations - note: Probably a mistake by OT but the flute 3 in Multis is saved without ORTF Mic enabled, easy to fix (you need to have a good listen with a professional headphone):
A. Flute 1 (Sustains) seems to be placed closer than the other two flutes.
B. Flute 3 Sus Imm (3 sustains here instead of only 1 Sustains patch!) seems to be placed slightly BEHIND IT!
C. Flute 2 Sus Imm (3 sustains here instead of only 1 Sustains patch!) seems to be placed much further back (not "slightly" as in flute 3).
What is bothering me the most with flutes is the z-depth, so yes as support said: same levels as other flutes, but the reality is that the Z-Depth which is more important for Orchestral placement is not worked out as it should, a reason why I decided to upgrade to Revive! Hope that gets to be fixed.


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## rap_ferr (Dec 28, 2017)

Guys,

I went ahead and cross graded but I forgot to select the same folder I had the legacy version installed in the downloader app.

Which files should I copy from the legacy folder?


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## C-Wave (Dec 28, 2017)

rap_ferr said:


> Guys,
> 
> I went ahead and cross graded but I forgot to select the same folder I had the legacy version installed in the downloader app.
> 
> Which files should I copy from the legacy folder?


All of it! Data, instruments, and samples.so two self-sufficient folders. Keep in mind that yo don’t need the legacy folder unless you want to open previous projects. The Revive folder don’t use any of it.


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## Leon Portelance (Dec 30, 2017)

I ended up buying Revive.


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## galactic orange (Dec 30, 2017)

Leon Portelance said:


> I ended up buying Revive.


If you give it a runthrough before the offer expires, I hope you wouldn't mind sharing your impressions. I'm leaning more toward buying Revive. As much as I don't like to reward pressuring current users to upgrade now, it works. Would this be as useful to me as, for example, Spitfire Percussion which I can get discounted right now? I don't know. But I don't like knowing that if something about Legacy BWW bothers me, I could have had an alternative in Revive.


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## JohnBMears (Dec 30, 2017)

galactic orange said:


> If you give it a runthrough before the offer expires, I hope you wouldn't mind sharing your impressions. I'm leaning more toward buying Revive. As much as I don't like to reward pressuring current users to upgrade now, it works. Would this be as useful to me as, for example, Spitfire Percussion which I can get discounted right now? I don't know. But I don't like knowing that if something about Legacy BWW bothers me, I could have had an alternative in Revive.



After seeing this message from OT, I was wondering if they would honor 'manual' discounts on Revive after the new year....

_METROPOLIS ARK 3 - Important Voucher Information!

Hey Everyone,
we just wanted to drop a note that we have to update our webshop at January, 1. Since today it´s possible to buy MA3 with the existing Metropolis discount and any other voucher (like the BO Inspire voucher) in combination. Technically that will not be possible from January, 1. If you are planning to use the Intro-Special in combination with another voucher we would like to recommend you to do this before January, 1.

It will be anyway possible to buy MA3 in combination with any other voucher next year BUT in this situation, please contact us via support (at) orchestraltools.com

We will do that manually then.

All the best and have a good start in the new year!_


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## galactic orange (Dec 30, 2017)

JohnBMears said:


> After seeing this message from OT, I was wondering if they would honor 'manual' discounts on Revive after the new year....
> 
> _METROPOLIS ARK 3 - Important Voucher Information!
> 
> ...


That's an interesting proposition.


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## galactic orange (Dec 31, 2017)

Despite the fact that content wise this is the largest upgrade I've ever seen (albeit a paid upgrade), this is one of the most difficult upgrade decicions I've ever had to make.

Arturia V5 Collection to V6: easy NOPE.
Izotope Music Production Bundle to Version 2: easy NOPE.

The last of my sample funds for a long while will be going either to this or to something else.


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## ed buller (Dec 31, 2017)

I really like revive. Yes here are some things I miss but the improvements far outweigh the downsides 


e


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## JohnBMears (Dec 31, 2017)

ed buller said:


> I really like revive. Yes here are some things I miss but the improvements far outweigh the downsides
> 
> 
> e



I agree and am glad I got it now for the upgrade price. I just wonder why with all the accumulated knowledge of building the Berlin Series, that it still didn't go all the way and re-do everything. But yes the improvements are great, and I'd for sure recommend anyone who uses Berlin Brass as their main brass to go ahead with the upgrade.


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## Per Lichtman (Dec 31, 2017)

I've got a review of Berlin Woodwinds Revive coming out in SBM in a couple weeks, and reviewed Berlin Woodwinds 2.1 (included in Revive) with Expansions A-D for SoundBytesMag.net last issue, so I'll be happy to try and give a few observations ahead of time in case it helps people make their decisions.

First, for those looking to upgrade.

- The old instruments sound wetter and different in Revive than Legacy. *They contain all 6 of the same microphone positions as the new instruments.* I'm putting that in bold because it was misrepresented in another thread.
- The Revive levels (quieter) make a lot more sense relative to other Berlin libraries now and the sound does, too.
- The wetter Revive sound blends better with the rest of the orchestra. Legacy sounds a lot brighter.
- Revive can be used without additional reverb in a way that Legacy couldn't.
- Revive contains a single legato type that's smoother than in Legacy. Legacy gave you a choice between tongued vs slurred but neither sounds as smooth as in the new library, even for older instruments.
- There are articulation differences between the new and old instruments in Revive. You can see them for yourself in the manual on OT's website, but most of the new instruments contain a pleasant "soft" sustain that I use a lot.
- In Revive, the old instruments often have fewer layers than the new ones (for instance the sustain vibrato in flute 1 has 3 layers while in flute 2 there are 2 layers). The quietest and loudest layers are preserved - it's the middle one that gets omitted. Note that the old instruments have just as many layers in Revive as they did in Legacy. (EDIT: Note I said "often" not always. Clarinet 1 has 3 layers, just like Clarinet 2, even though Clarinet 2 is older).

For anyone that hasn't bought Berlin Woodwinds in the past, it's an even better deal now. Like, a lot better - because you have your choice of two different sets of recordings and aesthetics for the library and the miking and programming are generally more flexible in the newer part. For anyone that's looking to upgrade, I think it partly depends on how you feel about the old library. Personally, I tended to often do a little bit of mixing work to get the old BWW to blend with other libraries that I don't have to anymore and I find it's a lot warmer and more relaxed when blending with strings in particular now. The new legato is noticeably more fluid, too.

On the other hand, if you really liked how bright the Berlin Woodwinds recordings were, didn't mind the fewer microphones like I did and aren't swayed by the new articulations or improved legato, then you may want to stay with the older one.

Is there any additional info. I can provide that would be helpful?


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## Per Lichtman (Dec 31, 2017)

NoamL said:


> ????
> 
> I'm 90% sure that Old BWW has 3 dynamic layers for legatos (p mf ff) and 2 (mf ff) for other articulations.
> 
> Can you confirm New BWW has only 2 dynamic layers for legatos??



Often, but not always. For example Clarinet 1 (new) has three layers, just like the older Clarinet 2.


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## galactic orange (Dec 31, 2017)

Per Lichtman said:


> I've got a review of Berlin Woodwinds Revive coming out in SBM in a couple weeks, and reviewed Berlin Woodwinds 2.1 (included in Revive) with Expansions A-D for SoundBytesMag.net last issue, so I'll be happy to try and give a few observations ahead of time in case it helps people make their decisions.
> 
> First, for those looking to upgrade.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this detailed comparison. I've picked up the upgrade to Revive. I did so for the most part to have the smoother legato and different sustain types as you mentioned. The extra mic positions are a bonus. I'm also glad that the overall wetness and sound are different since that provides for more mixing options.


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## Zorpley (Jan 1, 2018)

storyteller said:


> *I think it is extremely unfortunate and disrespectful to customers* that the upgrade/crossgrade is a limited-time offer. I completely understand new releases having a time-locked entry price. I also understand that companies do not have to extend loyalty upgrade pricing at all. But regardless of the quality and work that went in it, the unfortunate appearance for users who do not have unlimited cash flow is: "Give me your money now. Like we mean it... or else you are no longer a valued customer. We are more important financially than any of your other commitments, so budget carefully so you can give us more money by EOY 2017."
> 
> For users who are not cash-strapped, it comes across as, "Hey. You have some extra money. We deserve it. Look what we did. We gave you something that gives you a few new perks and it keeps money coming in for us. Win-win, right?" Not really, though.
> 
> ...



Hooooold on a sec. I already own BWW, and now if I want Revive I have to pay 650 Euros, most of which would be going towards a bunch of sampled content that I already own?! At least it makes the decision not to upgrade much easier.


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## BenHicks (Jan 1, 2018)

Zorpley said:


> Hooooold on a sec. I already own BWW, and now if I want Revive I have to pay 650 Euros, most of which would be going towards a bunch of sampled content that I already own?! At least it makes the decision not to upgrade much easier.



From the promotional email OT sent out a while back:

"*For existing Berlin Woodwinds users* we offer an attractive crossgrade of *just 199€ + VAT*. 
Your verification is your email address that you used when you purchased the original BerlinWoodwinds."


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## galactic orange (Jan 1, 2018)

BenHicks said:


> From the promotional email OT sent out a while back:
> 
> "*For existing Berlin Woodwinds users* we offer an attractive crossgrade of *just 199€ + VAT*.
> Your verification is your email address that you used when you purchased the original BerlinWoodwinds."


The option to upgrade isn't available on the website anymore as per the offer until the end of December. I didn't know what was going to happen after the upgrade period had passed (so I upgraded to Revive), but I'm frankly a little disheartened that this is the way OT has chosen to play it. Customers notice these things and will make future spending decisions in part based on how it was handled.


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## BenHicks (Jan 1, 2018)

galactic orange said:


> The option to upgrade isn't available on the website anymore as per the offer until the end of December. I didn't know what was going to happen after the upgrade period had passed (so I upgraded to Revive), but I'm frankly a little disheartened that this is the way OT has chosen to play it. Customers notice these things and will make future spending decisions in part based on how it was handled.



Well, if that's indeed the case, then that's pretty frustrating. The way I interpreted the email made it seem like new buyers could take advantage of the intro pricing while existing owners of the original BWW would always have the crossgrade option available by using the same email address at checkout as they did before. I don't currently need Revive at the moment, but with an upcoming animated film I'll going to be scoring in a few months, I was looking forward to picking it up around that time. I may reach out to them and see if they would be willing to make an exception.


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## Zorpley (Jan 2, 2018)

BenHicks said:


> Well, if that's indeed the case, then that's pretty frustrating. The way I interpreted the email made it seem like new buyers could take advantage of the intro pricing while existing owners of the original BWW would always have the crossgrade option available by using the same email address at checkout as they did before. I don't currently need Revive at the moment, but with an upcoming animated film I'll going to be scoring in a few months, I was looking forward to picking it up around that time. I may reach out to them and see if they would be willing to make an exception.


I never received the promotional email, but I saw the crossgrade offer somewhere else and interpreted it the same way.

Consider the following:

Before October 16th, BWW cost €460.

On October 16th, OT announce that BWW is being pulled from the store, and price is reduced to €349.

On October 24th, BWW is removed from the store.

On October 25th, OT announce Revive. The intro pricing expiry date is specifically mentioned, but no such qualification is made about the crossgrade price.

On January 1st, Revive goes to full price (€649) and the crossgrade option is removed.

If you bought BWW at full price, you paid €460. If you then took the crossgrade to Revive, you paid an extra €199. This means you paid €659 for Revive, €10 more than the non-intro full price.

Now if you bought Revive during the intro period, or bought BWW during the "clearance" and took the crossgrade, you paid a total of €548.

This means that previous owners of BWW were not able to take advantage of the intro sale. Either previous owners would pay full price during the intro sale, or €1109 after January 1st.

I would have preferred to see an €89 intro-price crossgrade for previous owners of BWW, with an indefinite €199 crossgrade once intro pricing expired.

Locking previous owners of the library out of owning Revive, short of re-purchasing the entire library, does not sit well with me. I hope OT will address this.

I love BWW and have never had any issues with OT. Someone please tell me where me reasoning is faulty, because I really hope I'm missing something. I did my best to make sure everything in this post is correct, so if I'm wrong somewhere I apologize.


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## stigc56 (Jan 2, 2018)

Just this minut I have contacted OT with this message:
Hi
_I'm one of many BWW owners - I can tell from VI Control - that have misunderstood the mail from you regarding this update. I thought the offer on 199€ was a staying offer for the BWW owners, like the Arturia V6 update.
Can you make an exception, considering the short time since the 31/12 2017. Maybe You could announce an extended period of 7 days on VI Control? That would be a splendid opportunity to solve this unfortunate misunderstanding.
Kind Regards

Stig Christensen MUSICMIND_


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## Land of Missing Parts (Dec 20, 2018)

The €199 upgrade from Berlin Woodwinds Legacy to Revive was only available for _two weeks_.

After that, Orchestral Tools will not sell the upgrade to customers who bought their Berlin Woodwinds Legacy. You just have to buy Berlin Woodwinds again at full price.

At an unspecified time in the future they say they will offer the upgrade price again, and provide an update to fix issues mentioned in this thread.


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## TintoL (Dec 20, 2018)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> You just have to buy Berlin Woodwinds again at full price.



whaaaaatttt.... that's soo disappointing. If that is their policy, I am now sure that I will never own anything from them....

Compare that with spitfire's client policy....

Good to know.


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## The Darris (Dec 20, 2018)

TintoL said:


> whaaaaatttt.... that's soo disappointing. If that is their policy, I am now sure that I will never own anything from them....
> 
> Compare that with spitfire's client policy....
> 
> Good to know.


Yeah, they did this right before the holidays too so many of us who had a fairly decent spending budget had to deal with that limited timeline. Look, I was an original Berlin Woodwinds pre-ordered customer. It is a little bit of a bummer to have to spend ~$230 USD in order to have a supported library that contains samples I already bought a few years prior. I get it, they have licenses and overhead costs they need to recoup and they came up with that price point. However, I agree that they should have kept the deal available indefinitely to registered users of Berlin Woodwinds Legacy as a means of keeping loyal customers.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Dec 20, 2018)

The Darris said:


> However, I agree that they should have kept the deal available indefinitely to registered users of Berlin Woodwinds Legacy as a means of keeping loyal customers.


It's a terrible pricing policy, and one that deserve some attention and criticism, and reflects poorly on how they treat their longtime customers.

Luckily, it's also easy for them to fix. Offer longtime users an ongoing upgrade path; don't leave us out in the cold.

As they launch two new series this year: Time and Glory Days, I'd encourage people to take a look at how they've treated their customers in the past.


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## lucor (Dec 20, 2018)

Honestly, the whole BWW fiasco completely destroyed my support and trust in OT. I wouldn't have expected the update to be free and would have been fine with paying an upgrade price for the new version, it's a lot of new content after all. But only giving us a few weeks to do so, and if you can't afford it in that short time frame, go f#"! yourself and buy the whole thing again, is an extremely shitty way to treat your customers.
On top of that: they always advertised their orchestra to be 'balanced', it also said the same thing in the original BWW manual, and it was one of the main arguments why I bought the Berlin orchestra. But the thing is, BWW wasn't balanced at all to the other sections, not even close. Apparently the balancing only started happening in BWW Revive, where the levels are now supposed to be correct.
So they not only want me to pay full price again, I also have to purchase the whole library again to get something that was advertised to be there years ago.
Edit: just realized I already had the same rant in this very thread. Oh well...


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## Pazpatu (Dec 21, 2018)

lucor said:


> Honestly, the whole BWW fiasco completely destroyed my support and trust in OT. I wouldn't have expected the update to be free and would have been fine with paying an upgrade price for the new version, it's a lot of new content after all. But only giving us a few weeks to do so, and if you can't afford it in that short time frame, go f#"! yourself and buy the whole thing again, is an extremely shitty way to treat your customers.



There is an important Revive update under the hood. The BWW owners will be able to Crossgrade to this version which seems to be promising according to Orchestral Tools.
Just wait a bit more


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## Gerbil (Dec 21, 2018)

I'm not really that bothered about it as I've never put BWW above the other libraries in terms of quality. It's very good don't get me wrong, I do like and use it, but so are several others. I'd rather put my money towards another flavour of WW such as the upcoming Spitfire library.


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## Architekton (Dec 21, 2018)

Pretty terrible update pricing policy on BWW, very unprofessional towards long time customers.


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## TintoL (Dec 23, 2018)

The Darris said:


> Yeah, they did this right before the holidays too so many of us who had a fairly decent spending budget had to deal with that limited timeline. Look, I was an original Berlin Woodwinds pre-ordered customer. It is a little bit of a bummer to have to spend ~$230 USD in order to have a supported library that contains samples I already bought a few years prior. I get it, they have licenses and overhead costs they need to recoup and they came up with that price point. However, I agree that they should have kept the deal available indefinitely to registered users of Berlin Woodwinds Legacy as a means of keeping loyal customers.


Thanks for the reply sir....

But, they have that policy detail in very, very small letters and very hidden and quiet.

It is a very important deal. I mean if a software like zbrush offers unlimited upgrade and for life, why OT wouldn't do that? They most think they are the holy grail in orchestral sampling.

For sure, I will never buy anything from them.... hands down.


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## TintoL (Dec 23, 2018)

Gerbil said:


> I'm not really that bothered about it as I've never put BWW above the other libraries in terms of quality. It's very good don't get me wrong, I do like and use it, but so are several others. I'd rather put my money towards another flavour of WW such as the upcoming Spitfire library.


WHICH UPCOMING SPITFIRE LIBRARY....? WHAAAT...........


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## jbuhler (Dec 23, 2018)

TintoL said:


> WHICH UPCOMING SPITFIRE LIBRARY....? WHAAAT...........


Studio WW. To complete the Studio series.


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## TintoL (Dec 23, 2018)

jbuhler said:


> Studio WW. To complete the Studio series.


True, right. Most likely that library will better than the other ones. I would also look into it. 

Thanks.


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## jbuhler (Dec 23, 2018)

TintoL said:


> True, right. Most likely that library will better than the other ones. I would also look into it.
> 
> Thanks.


Different, drier, certainly. Complementary, we hope. Better, that's still to be seen.


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