# Pythagoras and Music



## Rodney Money (Mar 30, 2017)

The academy in which I work for are constantly keeping me busy and on my toes. I never know what is going to come through the door: write music for a commercial, write an entire musical, arrangements, new jazz piece, art song for the chorus, or guest lecturer for another class. The philosophy professor wants me to lecture his class next Friday concerning Pythagoras and music. Anything on the subject is wide open. What topics do you think I should cover?

Thanks guys and gals!


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## mikeh-375 (Mar 30, 2017)

Hi Rodney,

I read this a long time ago...

The Music of the Spheres, Music, Science and the Natural order of the Universe by Jamie James. You might well find some useful material in it...


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## Rodney Money (Mar 30, 2017)

mikeh-375 said:


> Hi Rodney,
> 
> I read this a long time ago...
> 
> The Music of the Spheres, Music, Science and the Natural order of the Universe by Jamie James. You might well find some useful material in it...


Thank you so much for the recommendation. I will check it out.


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## mikeh-375 (Mar 30, 2017)

try this link for a resume...
http://brothersjudd.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/reviews.detail/book_id/1293/Music of the.htm


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## Phryq (Mar 30, 2017)

Oh, I wish I had your job. That sounds so amazing and interesting!

I could rant about Pythagoras forever.


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## Rodney Money (Mar 30, 2017)

Phryq said:


> Oh, I wish I had your job. That sounds so amazing and interesting!
> 
> I could rant about Pythagoras forever.


Great job, but the drawbacks are always stressing about money and an unhappy wife. But enough of about my great life, please rant here and share some of your thoughts and ideas.


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## Mundano (Mar 30, 2017)

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=es&q=pythagoras+and+music&btnG=&lr=


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## Rodney Money (Mar 30, 2017)

Phryq said:


> Oh, I wish I had your job. That sounds so amazing and interesting!
> 
> I could rant about Pythagoras forever.


Do you or anyone else know if Pythagoras ever talked about what we know as the overtone series?


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## Mundano (Mar 30, 2017)

https://books.google.de/books?hl=es...y of physics and music / Ian Johnston&f=false


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## Chandler (Mar 30, 2017)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_tuning

If you can stretch things a bit you can talk about Euclid and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclidean_rhythm which is a really cool subject.


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## trumpoz (Mar 30, 2017)

Pythagoras is actually the mathematician who worked out the mathematical relationship between harmonics if I remember correctly. There is quite a bit of discussion about Pythagorian vs equal temperament tuning.

Try looking at the book 'the music instinct' by Phillip Ball.


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## SillyMidOn (Mar 31, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> The academy in which I work for are constantly keeping me busy and on my toes. I never know what is going to come through the door: write music for a commercial, write an entire musical, arrangements, new jazz piece, art song for the chorus, or guest lecturer for another class. The philosophy professor wants me to lecture his class next Friday concerning Pythagoras and music. Anything on the subject is wide open. What topics do you think I should cover?
> 
> Thanks guys and gals!


I remember learning that the Ancient Greeks thought that the movement of the planets through the sky was the music of the spheres, and they regarded music and maths as related. This may help: http://vaczy.dk/htm/spheres.htm

I can also remember reading endless theories on how if you shorten a string by a factor of X, you get note Y, but if you shorten it by a factor of A, you get note B, and how this could form a scale, and how they endlessly tried to get good sounding modes, but ultimately failed until tempered tuning came about. Apologies, it's all a bit of a hazy memory.

Hope that helps.


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## Rodney Money (Mar 31, 2017)

SillyMidOn said:


> I remember learning that the Ancient Greeks thought that the movement of the planets through the sky was the music of the spheres, and they regarded music and maths as related. This may help: http://vaczy.dk/htm/spheres.htm
> 
> I can also remember reading endless theories on how if you shorten a string by a factor of X, you get note Y, but if you shorten it by a factor of A, you get note B, and how this could form a scale, and how they endlessly tried to get good sounding modes, but ultimately failed until tempered tuning came about. Apologies, it's all a bit of a hazy memory.
> 
> Hope that helps.


Helps out beautifully! Thank you.


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## muk (Mar 31, 2017)

'Monochord' and 'Quadrivium' should probably be mentioned in your lecture.


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## Rodney Money (Mar 31, 2017)

muk said:


> 'Monochord' and 'Quadrivium' should probably be mentioned in your lecture.


Absolutely!


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## Takabuntu (Mar 31, 2017)

And have E.S. Posthumus songs playing in the background during your lecture. According to Wikipedia "Their music is inspired by the Pythagorean philosophy which states that "music is the harmonization of opposites; the conciliation of warring elements". Should fit beautifully


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## CT (Mar 31, 2017)

I enjoy some of his musical contributions, but the man set us all back a bit in the science department....


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## IoannisGutevas (Apr 1, 2017)

You cant possibly cover Pythagoras in a lecture. You need a lifetime or more to even comprehend the basics of his teachings and ideology.

He is a prime example of the pinnacle of humand mind, even thought by many that he didnt exist at all -or not being human at all- or at least seen by really selected few.

I think before even going on the music topic you need to introduce to the audience of the marvel that was the ancient Greece. The birthplace of all science and all art.

After that you should talk a little of major figures of ancient Greece so the audience can famirialize with the place and the times you are speaking of.

After summing up the arts and the science that was born in my country -a little proud ego here ^^-, then move on the the pythagorean school. Its a mix of myth / truth and legend here so you can bring the subject to a big food for thought.

Then move into describing the persona that was behind the name "Pythagoras". Who was he, who people believed he was ect. Since music is a artistic form of math (or at least that it is believed to be in its higher art-form), it is believed that Pythagoras was the first man that ever wrote notes.

For Pythagoras music and mathematics become an excercise with only purpose to transcend our earthly body limitations and the catharsis of human soul in order the latter to be set free from the cycle of reincarnation and reach the divinity in which it comes from.

There are so many things you can read and say about the marvel thats named Pythagoras. But first you must understand the marvel that was the Ancient El-las (thats the true name of Greece). Hope i helped


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## Rodney Money (Jun 25, 2017)

For those interested, here are the notes from my lecture which did include an introduction to Ancient El-las which is not in the notes. Thank you all once again! @IoannisGutevas 



Pythagoras and Music



v Music Intervals

· Share the story of Pythagoras and the blacksmith’s anvils: Pythagoras noticed that the anvils with more weight had a lower pitch, and certain intervals, the spaces between notes, sounded better than others.

· In 500 B.C., Pythagoras proved through mathematics that vibrations cause the pitch and tone of the sound.

· Experiments with an instrument called the monochord, which is similar to a guitar with one string, not only helped Pythagoras discover the mathematical ratios between perfect intervals, but it also led to the discovery of the octave when he either divided the string in half or doubled the length of the string. Some mathematical ratio examples of musical intervals: silence 0:0, unison 1:1, 2:1 perfect octave, 3:2 perfect 5th, and 4:3 perfect 4th. For Pythagoras, the discovery of the octave was proof that God existed.



v Music of the Spheres

· Share John Cage’s story of his experience in an anechoic chamber, and “All life vibrates.”

· Pythagoras conceived of the universe as a vast 7 string lyre, in which each heavenly body: sun, moon, Mercury, Earth, Venus, Mars, and Jupiter vibrating at a specific pitch harmonized with other heavenly bodies to create a “music of the spheres.” A principle teaching of the Pythagorean School was that God is universal harmony perceived through the number 7. The revolutionary steps of Pythagoras adding an 8th string to the lyre helped pave the way to modern scales: Greek modes to Medieval Church Modes to our Modern Major and Minor Scales.

· Talk about overtones, and share short composition using NASA’s recording of Jupiter’s electromagnetic field turned into sound waves, and share how the piano keyboard is related to Earth’s calendar.


v Music Therapy

· Code of Ethos: whatever type of music you listen to will influence the type of person you will become. Pythagoras taught his students that focusing on pure, mathematically precise tones would calm and illuminate the mind. He also taught that music should not be considered a form of entertainment, but rather it should be seen as a form of harmony, the divine principle that brings order to chaos. Plato in 427 B.C. took these teachings applying different musical modes or musical scales for: men, women, sleeping, waking, working, or combat and training.

· Share story of the man looking for vengeance. Share music composition, “Trumpet Concerto Introduction,” to summarize lesson demonstrating overtones, intervals, music found in nature in relation to music of the spheres, music therapy, and music’s meaning beyond simple entertainment.


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## mikeh-375 (Jun 25, 2017)

Hey Rodney,
How is the keyboard related to Earths' calender? Fascinating....do you mean 52 white notes = 1 year, that's the best I could do!, flakey though...
You should post that on CF.ning...


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## IoannisGutevas (Jun 25, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> For those interested, here are the notes from my lecture which did include an introduction to Ancient El-las which is not in the notes. Thank you all once again! @IoannisGutevas
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are very welcome! Seems a very interesting lecture i wish i was there to attend! Well done my friend


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## Brian2112 (Jun 25, 2017)

If memory serves, Claud Debussy experimented with the golden ratio in music as have others. Many things attributed to Pythagoras may have been more than one person or even a female student.


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## IoannisGutevas (Jun 25, 2017)

Brian2112 said:


> Many things attributed to Pythagoras may have been more than one person or even a female student.



Or maybe a vampire  There are a lot of historic mentionings of Pythagoras and his life, and although an enigmatic and brilliant figure he was no student nor female my friend.


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## Brian2112 (Jun 25, 2017)

Sorry, I meant a female student of Pythagoras. They were vegetarians, and believed females were mostly equal to men. Pythagoras and his followers were quite an enlightened bunch in spite of earning a "Cult" status.
And they were Vampires..


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## IoannisGutevas (Jun 25, 2017)

Brian2112 said:


> Sorry, I meant a female student of Pythagoras. They were vegetarians, and believed females were mostly equal to men. Pythagoras and his followers were quite an enlightened bunch in spite of earning a "Cult" status.
> And they were Vampires..



Τhey were female vegeterian vampires.. no wonder they became extinct :D


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## Brian2112 (Jun 25, 2017)

LOL!!!!


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## Rodney Money (Jun 26, 2017)

mikeh-375 said:


> Hey Rodney,
> How is the keyboard related to Earths' calender? Fascinating....do you mean 52 white notes = 1 year, that's the best I could do!, flakey though...
> You should post that on CF.ning...


These months have 31 days on the calendar: January, March, May, July, August, October, and December. These months do not: February, April, June, September, and November. If you play from F to E on a keyboard then the months with 31 days are the white keys, and the months that do not are the black keys. 

Concerning CF.ning, I have a love-hate relationship with that place just as my thread on Bach shows. You, as in myself, ask a simple question, then 1000 pages later people have forgotten about the question and just start talking about trolls, conspiracy theories, and insulting each other. It is the perfect example of the use of woodwinds in Ives' "The Unanswered Question," where I am the trumpet, and the moderators are the strings.


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## mc_deli (Jun 26, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> · Share story of the man looking for vengeance.


Yes please... you or...?

(Next week, Robert Fludd)


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## Rodney Money (Jun 26, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> Yes please... you or...?
> 
> (Next week, Robert Fludd)


I have been told that I am a natural story teller especially when giving talks in public, because I try to relate everything to modern circumstances even when talking about history from long ago, so I apologize in advance for the Cliff note version I am about to share. It's one of those things, you had to be there in the moment where I used actual students with their consent to tell the story. They loved it. Basically the story goes: one of Plato's students was incredibly angry because his girlfriend cheated on him and he was on his way to burn her house down. Plato, a student of Pythagoras, used soothing music therapy to calm him down by figuring out what type of music he had been listening to and then changed the mode, hence changing his tune, to calm him down.


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## mc_deli (Jun 26, 2017)

I was hoping for some back row brass section beef and some dastardly plot you've been hatching for years... but that'll do nicely


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## mikeh-375 (Jun 26, 2017)

_These months have 31 days on the calendar: January, March, May, July, August, October, and December. These months do not: February, April, June, September, and November. If you play from F to E on a keyboard then the months with 31 days are the white keys, and the months that do not are the black keys.
_
Rodney,

What is the source for this claim and are you being specific with f to e as opposed to say c to b? Just curious...
_
_


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## Rodney Money (Jun 26, 2017)

mikeh-375 said:


> _These months have 31 days on the calendar: January, March, May, July, August, October, and December. These months do not: February, April, June, September, and November. If you play from F to E on a keyboard then the months with 31 days are the white keys, and the months that do not are the black keys.
> _
> Rodney,
> 
> What is the source for this claim and are you being specific with f to e as opposed to say c to b? Just curious...


From F to E, and the claim or this part of the lesson was to show that music is more than entertainment according to Pythagoras. It's a powerful force that is not only found in nature but perhaps what binds us together.


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## mikeh-375 (Jun 26, 2017)

Ok, but who/what is the source?....not gunning for you here, still just curious.


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## Rodney Money (Jun 26, 2017)

mikeh-375 said:


> Ok, but who/what is the source?....not gunning for you here, still just curious.


While researching Pythagoras and his Music of the Spheres I came across this interesting video:


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## mikeh-375 (Jun 26, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> While researching Pythagoras and his Music of the Spheres I came across this interesting video:





Thanks for posting that Rodney, very entertaining if a little contrived for me.


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