# The career of the cinematic soundtrack solo albums



## HarmonyCore (Jan 6, 2021)

Hello Everyone,

A lot of home cinematic composers are very keen about getting their tracks licensed by music libraries and earn royalties through their PROs. So, they make albums solely for that purpose. Or they may also put them on amazon, apple, bandcamp, or any other online music service for additional income.

But I wonder how someone like Thomas Bergersen, who decided to take a different route and not to abide by the industry rules, was able to survive in the industry. He makes solo albums (not for any music library) which contain great music that he loves to create, not what supervisors or music libraries want him to create. How do he sell them? Do he register them with a PRO? How do he survive? Maybe because Two Steps From Hell is a music library company in itself? .. Many composers struggle when their music gets rejected which makes them under the mercy of libraries always and they are not free at all.

So, let's say, I decided to take the same route as Thomas, How can I get income from my music without relying on music libraries? Perhaps it's time to create my own website once I finish an album or two?

Appreciate your insights on this.


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## IFM (Jan 6, 2021)

HarmonyCore said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> A lot of home cinematic composers are very keen about getting their tracks licensed by music libraries and earn royalties through their PROs. So, they make albums solely for that purpose. Or they may also put them on amazon, apple, bandcamp, or any other online music service for additional income.
> 
> ...


Marketing is what you need to learn and study. There is a number of different courses here that are great (I've taken most). It will take work and won't happen overnight but we have the means to find our audience. 








Home | Savvy Musician Academy


Transforming independent musicians into expert marketers of their own music Watch the Free Seminar Now NEW! Shopify for Musicians Crash Course Big News: Spotify now allows you to sell your merch right from your artist profile by connecting to a Shopify store. Want to know how to set it up...




savvymusicianacademy.com


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## jonathanparham (Jan 6, 2021)

IFM said:


> Marketing is what you need to learn and study. There is a number of different courses here that are great (I've taken most). It will take work and won't happen overnight but we have the means to find our audience.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've recently joined IndePreneur. How do you like Savvvymusic academy? I believe she uses free organic traffic whereas Indepreneur believes in paid traffic.


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## IFM (Jan 6, 2021)

jonathanparham said:


> I've recently joined IndePreneur. How do you like Savvvymusic academy? I believe she uses free organic traffic whereas Indepreneur believes in paid traffic.


No, you should start and learn with free (organic traffic) but the advance courses are paid traffic. You need to know what you are doing before you start throwing money at it. TOM3.0 probably gets into this but Elite is where there are a ton of details.


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## jonathanparham (Jan 6, 2021)

IFM said:


> TOM3.0 probably gets into this but Elite is where there are a ton of details.


are these different courses or different levels of Savvymusicacademy?


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## IFM (Jan 6, 2021)

jonathanparham said:


> are these different courses or different levels of Savvymusicacademy?


both. The info is there In the link And even take the free one, it’s worth it. Her podcast is over but the episodes are still there too and worth the listen.


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## jonathanparham (Jan 6, 2021)

Understood. Have you worked through all the modules? I'm curious if starts from scratch? Before even marketing by trying to figure out genre and niche? I believe she's like Celtic rock? Does she have exercises for that?


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## IFM (Jan 7, 2021)

jonathanparham said:


> Understood. Have you worked through all the modules? I'm curious if starts from scratch? Before even marketing by trying to figure out genre and niche? I believe she's like Celtic rock? Does she have exercises for that?


I didn't do TOM3.0 as I joined when 2.0 was around. I've done all of elite and it's the real deal. This year I'm going back through it all again, especially with a new project launch.

EDIT: She is Celtic Metal but the courses apply to any genre (and beyond) since it is about marketing, not about how to write music.


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## JohnG (Jan 7, 2021)

HarmonyCore said:


> But I wonder how someone like Thomas Bergersen, who decided to take a different route and not to abide by the industry rules, was able to survive in the industry. He makes solo albums (not for any music library) which contain great music that he loves to create, not what supervisors or music libraries want him to create.


Well, you hit on one thing right off: *"great music that he loves to create, not what supervisors or music libraries want him to create."*

Do that.

That's what Thomas and Nick do at Two Steps From Hell. And that's what really good music libraries will encourage anyone to do, to write what they love, what they are great at. With the saturation out there now, music has to be excellent to attract an audience. The guys at Immediate Music did that forever.

*Sizzle Helps the Steak *

Regarding sales and marketing, I think good titles and artwork also help. Titles seem to be vital; the music I wrote for Immediate came with 'my' titles, which provoked chortles, guffaws, and derision. So they changed them all, dressed them with interesting artwork and we recorded with big orchestras and choirs, so they sounded as good as possible.

*Ignore Directions*

Even if you _are_ working under someone else's direction, take it with a dose, sometimes a big dose of salt. I don't really mean you should actually completely ignore directions from music supervisors, but I do think it's worth "processing" them. Sometimes music supervisors are gifted with words, sometimes not. Consequently, sometimes you get asked to write "Big Cliché XXIV" and you think, "I hate that $%#$."

So, if someone asks for "cinematic," or "epic," or some other genre-adjectival material that you think is worn out and exhausted, consider what that means to you, personally. Write something that makes _you_ think, "wow!"

That's what a good supervisor wants anyway. In the end, they want something super cool. If you write something that is super cool to you, personally, you have a fighting chance of surprising your audience -- in a good way -- with something magic. Don't be too trapped by directions; write what you love and maybe others will love it too.


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## Akarin (Jan 7, 2021)

IFM said:


> Marketing is what you need to learn and study. There is a number of different courses here that are great (I've taken most). It will take work and won't happen overnight but we have the means to find our audience.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Very interesting. But I guess that the one question is "did it change your income from music at all?"


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## MartinH. (Jan 7, 2021)

HarmonyCore said:


> So, let's say, I decided to take the same route as Thomas, How can I get income from my music without relying on music libraries? Perhaps it's time to create my own website once I finish an album or two?



Is it even possible for someone starting today, to make a living like that just from making really good music, unless you're also very good at marketing and charismatic enough to pull and keep an audience?


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## reborn579 (Jan 7, 2021)

i think there are a lot of artists writing music which might sound 'cinematic', but it's standalone. and some actually make a good living. one quick example is olafur arnalds - even if his style is quite far from bergersen.
i guess in the case of bergersen, the fact that two steps from hell is soo popular, he probably gets some very good royalties, so he can afford just doing his own thing.

but even so, i think there is a niche opening of 'film music without a film'. it's a bit tricky, because it's not soundtrack music, but it's not classical either (at least in the traditional sense). 
a bit like being a centrist, and neither left wing or right wing hehe. tough rope to walk on.

that's what my music is going for, anyway


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## JohnG (Jan 7, 2021)

Regarding marketing.

Normally, you would segment the market -- figure out who buys music, why (what their criteria are), price sensitivity / insensitivity, behaviour depending on circumstances (sometimes want the cheapest, sometimes willing to pay for higher quality / differentiation).

Only then would you design your product, set its pricing, and start testing for demand.

But I don't think music is like that. We don't make widgets.

*Just Gotta Be Meeeee....*

I have tried a few times to write in a style for which I had no respect. Music that we hear all over the place but aren't crazy about or even actively dislike. I think, "wow, if people like that rubbish, I could write ten of those in a weekend!" 

Result? Feeble.

The world doesn't want more "feeble," as there already is enough. The key is to write what YOU think is great, even if someone else doesn't. If it turns out that you like the sound of power drills all playing at once, do that. If you like milquetoast, honestly like it, do that.

Because even a little child can hear insincerity and lack of commitment and ignore you.

But if you are Janis Joplin singing, "Piece of My Heart" or Kendrick L doing his thing, or Beyoncé -- people stop and say -- 'whoa! what was that!?'

So we all should be our own Janis J.


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## X-Bassist (Jan 7, 2021)

JohnG said:


> Regarding marketing.
> 
> Normally, you would segment the market -- figure out who buys music, why (what their criteria are), price sensitivity / insensitivity, behaviour depending on circumstances (sometimes want the cheapest, sometimes willing to pay for higher quality / differentiation).
> 
> ...


Janis is a good example. Sounds like she’s hoarse but still belting it out and giving it her all. If you can’t write like that keep writing and looking until you find that music that makes you love writing. 

Then crank that out. Even marketing isn’t as hard if you really love what you’re writing, you’re excitement will come across in all you do for it. You just have to go back to step 1 until you find it.

Then, as most working artists will tell you, keep looking. Keeping fresh is just continuing to develop the style you have and breaking into new ground. As your excitement gets out there, more will come to help.


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## jonathanparham (Jan 7, 2021)

IFM said:


> I didn't do TOM3.0 as I joined with 2.0 was around. I've done all of elite and it's the real deal. This year I'm going back through it all again, especially with a new project launch.
> 
> EDIT: She is Celtic Metal but the courses apply to any genre (and beyond) since it is about marketing, not about how to write music.


Thanks for your answers. I'll private message you if I have more. 

Apologies to @HarmonyCore for hijacking the thread.


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## rgames (Jan 7, 2021)

HarmonyCore said:


> But I wonder how someone like Thomas Bergersen, who decided to take a different route


Did he? I'm not so sure. I think a lot of his income was (and remains) from music licensing.

Regarding "writing what you love" I agree that the people who become most successful do that. But I'll disagree with @JohnG a little bit and say you can still be successful even if you're not writing what you love. If you're writing something that makes money then somebody finds value in it. Isn't that at least as good as writing something that you, alone, value? I think so.

Here's an analogy: I had an electrician come by yesterday and install new circuits for a couple ceiling fans and an exterior light. Do you think he wakes up everyday excited about installing wiring for ceiling fans? Probably not, but I certainly value the service he provided and am glad he chose to do so. And he probobaly finds satisfaction in providing value to people in that way even if he doesn't, necessarily, love installing wires for ceiling fans.

My income peaked about 3 years ago after a few years of writing music that I wasn't too crazy about. So I quit writing it, and my income has gone down. But I don't regret the time spent writing that music because others voted with their dollars and said they had a use for it. That means I provided value to someone even if not myself. The dollars compensate for that fact.

If you can't make a living doing what you love then try to make a living doing something that other people love. That's better than not making a living. Society is better served.

There are lots of way to find satisfaciton in life if you think outside yourself.

rgames


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## JohnG (Jan 7, 2021)

I see Richard's belief in The Market clearly burns as brightly as ever.

Not that he's all wrong or something, but I guess the people who do the best are not only "meeting the market's needs" but are really into what they are doing as well. The luckiest artists / composers / performers / wire installers find that what they really like doing intersects with strong market appetite.

On this "write what you love" topic, I believe two things:

*1. Die on your own hill* -- I would much rather do my utmost to write music that I find, personally, valid and "cool," for want of a better expression, even if its market reception is not as great as, say, Thomas'; and

*2. People can tell *-- I believe, right or wrong, that if you want to be super successful (however you define that), you are best off writing what you think is awesome. People are far more likely to latch onto it in a powerful way (even if it's not that many people) and, more importantly, you won't burn out. 

It's a heck of a lot more inspiring to work 18-20 hours a day on something you like and feel is artistically, personally worthwhile. I could not put those kinds of hours in on music that I felt was "not really my thing" or "so-so."

Thomas loves what he writes.


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## tebling (Jan 7, 2021)

rgames said:


> ...you can still be successful even if you're not writing what you love.


This can be true, but it very much depends on your definition of "success". If it's making a modest living and keeping the lights on, e.g. providing an income then yes certainly.

It's been long established that intrinsic rewards (satisfaction, fulfillment, "happiness") are much more sustainable motivators than extrinsic rewards (raises, bonuses, gifts, etc) even when given lavishly. As a long time people manager I've certainly seen this borne out. There are very few folks I could endlessly point at arbitrary tasks, even if they're extremely capable.

It may be that your electrician genuinely enjoys his trade, or it may be that he's been searching desperately for another, more fulfilling line of work even while doing his current job well. You can't know unless you ask.


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## IFM (Jan 7, 2021)

Akarin said:


> Very interesting. But I guess that the one question is "did it change your income from music at all?"


Very much so.


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## JohnG (Jan 7, 2021)

IFM said:


> Marketing is what you need to learn and study.


Maybe. However, I have seen over the years a number of young composers whose marketing acumen vastly exceeded their composing ability.

The problem?

It's great to land an audience with a Big Director or at Warner Bros. TV or something, but if what you're selling is not really ready yet, you've burned an entry point, most likely for good. At least in Los Angeles, if the first thing they hear is not ready for prime time, that's the last chance you'll ever get with that person. There are phalanxes of blockers to keep them from wasting their time again.

*It's Not Just Who You Know *

You hear all the time that "there are so many great composers. The ones who work know people." And up to a point that's true. However, I rarely hear what I would call amateurish, or incompetent, or unprofessionally-mixed music either on air or in the theatre. Yes, sometimes I don't _like_ the music in a movie or game, but that is not the same thing. It is executed at a professional level.

By contrast, my own initial demos, like most people's, may have shown promise but, like most, they were good for entry-level jobs. They were not adequate to play for the Head of Sound for Big Studio X.


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## Arbee (Jan 7, 2021)

Great thread. A couple of thoughts:

Arranging a cover track in your own style can help an audience connect with you and your original music.

Remember this is a long game, it takes years to become an overnight success!


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## rgames (Jan 8, 2021)

JohnG said:


> I guess the people who do the best are not only "meeting the market's needs" but are really into what they are doing as well.


Yes - as I said in my previous post, I agree 100% on that point.

But if you aren't that lucky then you can still make a living. Thanks to The Market 

rgames


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## Akarin (Jan 9, 2021)

IFM said:


> Very much so.



Care to expand on that a little? Maybe give a few examples? Thanks.


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## Arbee (Jan 9, 2021)

IFM said:


> No, you should start and learn with free (organic traffic) but the advance courses are paid traffic. You need to know what you are doing before you start throwing money at it. TOM3.0 probably gets into this but Elite is where there are a ton of details.


I was curious enough to listen to the free "scheduled" webinar/podcast at savvymusicianacademy.com and read the subsequent email follow ups. Then I went to YouTube expecting to see millions of views of her videos and her testimonial students' videos (as I've done with other PR firms in the past).

I wanted to be a believer but sadly it came across to me as a rather pushy and stereotypical infomercial with all the emotive selling tactics. Even the audience comments appearing during the webinar looked staged. I don't doubt there has been a huge amount of work put into the course content, so if my "too good to be true" first impression is unfair and it's worth investing please do correct me. And I'm assuming of course your own views expressed here are totally impartial and unsponsored (apologies for saying that but these are the times we live in). Thanks.


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## jonathanparham (Jan 10, 2021)

Well Youtubes, IMO, are teasers for larger things. I think of ScoreClub. If you don't have a background in theory and harmony, the material might seem obtuse or niche, but once you take a course you see how much there is. Similarly, with these marketing courses, you may have to try and get a money back guarantee.


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## GNP (Jan 10, 2021)

I never really understood doing standalone cinematic music just for the sake of it. It's fun, it's great...but ultimately it feels like giving birth to a baby who has no arms or legs....no context...nothing...


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## Snarf (Jan 10, 2021)

JohnG said:


> You hear all the time that "there are so many great composers. The ones who work know people." And up to a point that's true. However, I rarely hear what I would call amateurish, or incompetent, or unprofessionally-mixed music either on air or in the theatre. Yes, sometimes I don't _like_ the music in a movie or game, but that is not the same thing. It is executed at a professional level.


This!

If you want a Thomas Bergersen type of 'solo' career, you'll probably want to start by becoming as good (and fast!) at writing, orchestrating and producing as Thomas Bergersen.

As others have said, TB started his career via production/library/trailer music. His later 'artist' succes was only possible because people heard & liked his music in trailers/shows/media enough to find it, upload it to YouTube channels and grow a fanbase. This eventually resulted in the release of 'Invincible' and further, increasingly creative public albums etc. Even now, all of TB's public solo albums are available for industry licensing on extreme music.

So yes, while marketing, being a teamplayer, etc. - are all undoubtedly important, if your music isn't very good, then you're probably not going very far. But hey, don't take it from me - I'm just some nobody - here's some advice (to @DarkestShadow) from the man himself:






Edit: with regards to writing speed, keep in mind that 'Heart of Courage' was written in a day, 'That's A Wrap' was written in ten days, and 'Promise' was sketched in 15 minutes after Thomas heard that Tino Guo was coming to the studio


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## Greg (Jan 10, 2021)

He survives off of Youtube content id $ I almost guarantee it. I would be surprised if he makes less than 6 figures per month from it assuming he controls the master and pub 100%. Not joking at all.

I don't think he does or had to do much marketing aside from growing their brand. The music is genius and can market itself via people falling in love with it and listening over and over. Or hearing it in a big trailer. Or the millions of youtube videos that use his music. 

I messed with online marketing for my music a tiny bit, $500 on FB and instagram ads here and there trying different things. It was totally and completely worthless. I came to the conclusion that it was a massive waste of time and resources. No composer I love got popular from advertising themselves. They got popular because their music is incredible.

I used to write exclusively library music but recently shifted gears into writing music for the public / myself, and it was the best decision I ever made creatively and financially. The music has to be really great and 100% honest, 100% your voice to have any chance at all at it though. Not great to composers but great to your audience. There can be a massive difference as my most simple and stupid compositions are some of the most successful.


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## Serg Halen (Jan 10, 2021)

Thomas Bergersen, actually start his career many years before TSFH, with the commercial music for publishers like the "videohelper". And now, he has so mach fans, that he can doing just what he want.


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## Bluemount Score (Jan 10, 2021)

I think it's a combination of many things.

1. Mr. Bergersen is _super_ productive. I think he himself lost track of how much music he already published long time ago
2. His style is unique (now somewhat reproduced worldwide)
3. He composes what he loves and that shows
4. He started very early, in the early days of "realistic sampling"
5. Getting together with many other talented people
6. Good marketing

and there surely is more to it.


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## river angler (Jan 10, 2021)

JohnG said:


> Well, you hit on one thing right off: *"great music that he loves to create, not what supervisors or music libraries want him to create."*
> 
> Do that.
> 
> ...


This is great advice for any young ambitious composer. 

The library market is indeed completely saturated with "sound alike" music in every genre you can possibly imagine. The composers who are getting hired in the library industry and in the bespoke composition sector (writing directly to film) are the ones that have nurtured their own individual style over the years and not caved in to the "follow the sheep" syndrome! 

Personally I have heard enough music in my lifetime to be inspired by to not spend time continually studying what others are doing anymore. I do enjoy hearing other composers work of course but I just don't analyse it or listen to it many times over as I prefer to keep utilising the myriad of sonic grey matter I have accumulated already since childhood. It's best to delve into your own imagination that, if open, will naturally lead you to the inspiring music you dream of creating. In essence if that inspiring music has your very own stamp on it- your own style- your individual musical identity: this is what attracts producers and directors to hiring you. 

Regarding marketing your music: yes! there are countless so called payed courses out there for this but in my mind most of them are just jumping on the bandwagon like the ones on Youtube that profess to have all the answers on how to attract subscribers to your YouTube Channel etc! If you can get someone to represent you to prospective employers it certainly looks more professional. Most good composers are artists at heart and selling his or her art is often not a skill they are good at! Even more reason to truly nail your own musical identity: the content of your music will be your biggest selling point!

Also it is absolutely imperative that the productions of your music are top notch broadcast standard. With the ubiquity of software available these days everyone expects the same level or production. Successful composers not only have individual style but also have the technical audio skills to record and produce and if not hire someone to do it for them.

If your music is individually enticing it will sell itself- remember! you only need one professional music supervisor, or film producer, or music agent, or music promoter, or radio station, or orchestral conductor, or working session musician, or established music producer, or any other countless genres of contacts in the music industry to start waxing lyrical about your music to get the ball rolling!

Some say getting the music together is the easy part and marketing yourself is much harder! I agree with this to a certain extent but actually finding your own individual voice as a composer is paramount to having anything to sell in the first place!


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## tebling (Jan 10, 2021)

Snarf said:


> Edit: with regards to writing speed, keep in mind that 'Heart of Courage' was written in a day, 'That's A Wrap' was written in ten days, and 'Promise' was sketched in 15 minutes after Thomas heard that Tino Guo was coming to the studio


"That's A Wrap" has always stood out to me as TB's crowning achievement and the ten day thing (roughly one minute of finished audio per day) is insane. To me the track is also clear proof to the naysayers that his usual "trailer music" style is a conscious choice rather than a limitation.

Spotify link for anyone who hasn't heard it. My only complaint about the track is that the mix has been squashed to hell (no pun intended) and it sounds awful when played loud on a very good system.


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## rgames (Jan 10, 2021)

From what I've seen, going direct to the listener (i.e. not through a library or film/TV production) has a lot more to do with the brand and less to do with the music. So spending a lot of time worrying about the "quality" of the music is not a good approach. There's a minimum, yes, but it's pretty easy to achieve these days. Just write a *lot* of music and/or focus more on other elements of the brand. I think imagery is especially imoprtant.

Sell the brand, not the music.

I think that's the path a lof of media composers took on the way to a solo career. They were first associated with something else that captured their audience's attention - they love the movie or the video game or whatever. The music is just a piece of that. But once you have an audience and a brand you can use it to market music that is not attached to something else.

I constantly come across what I think is really good music that has no audience. And I constantly come across what I think is really bad music that has a huge audience. The difference is the branding.

Another thing to keep in mind is that not all audiences spend a lot of time on social media, especially in the classical music world. I follow Sony Classical and their Facebook page has relatively few followers. When they make a post it has relatively few likes and comments. But they're a huge name in the music world with some of history's greatest (i.e. "highest quality") musicians. So you can have a huge following that is not reflected in social media.

Regarding advertising on social media, and advertising in general, it helps less the more you've already established a brand and a following. If you're just starting out it's a great way to get your brand known (assuming you know how to target your audience). If you're already established, especially in a niche genre like cinematic music, it's going to help a lot less because many of the people you reach are already going to know about you. But it still helps - I guarantee you that every major pop star has an advertising budget.

One branding-related mistake I've seen people make is to mix their activities as teacher and music-maker. If you start a YouTube channel with a bunch of gear porn and tutorials then try to push your music on the same channel then you're going to have a tough time growing an audience for your music. Keep the gear porn and the music mostly separate with different channels, pages, accounts, etc. It's OK to to mix them a bit but make sure the focus (i.e. the brand) on each channel is clear otherwise you're going to severely limit the audience for your music.

rgames


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## JohnG (Jan 10, 2021)

river angler said:


> Some say getting the music together is the easy part and marketing yourself is much harder! I agree with this to a certain extent but actually finding your own individual voice as a composer is paramount to having anything to sell in the first place!


Good advice!


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## Lionel Schmitt (Jan 10, 2021)

Bluemount Score said:


> I think it's a combination of many things.
> 
> 1. Mr. Bergersen is _super_ productive. I think he himself lost track of how much music he already published long time ago
> 2. His style is unique (now somewhat reproduced worldwide)
> ...


Good marketing?
He publishes his music himself rather going for bigger labels that would certainly accept him, he doesn't run any ads anywhere afaik except 1-2 times on facebook, he and Nick started out by literally hiding their music from people since it was for the industry intitially - fans had to pirate it to have access to it till eventually they started releasing their music..
He only runs Facebook and no other social media platform (except YouTube, where it can take months for his solo releases to surface) and posts many major teasers/announcements as random comments to people that maybe 20 people see or sometime during a YouTube live stream or even after it has ended, he often writes that he writes music to his own taste and expects negative reactions from people...
and so on. That is the opposite of good marketing haha... XD


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## Bluemount Score (Jan 10, 2021)

DarkestShadow said:


> Good marketing?
> He publishes his music himself rather going for bigger labels that would certainly accept him, he doesn't run any ads anywhere afaik except 1-2 times on facebook, he and Nick started out by literally hiding their music from people since it was for the industry intitially - fans had to pirate it to have access to it till eventually they started releasing their music..
> He only runs Facebook and no other social media platform (except YouTube, where it can take months for his solo releases to surface) and posts many major teasers/announcements as random comments to people that maybe 20 people see or sometime during a YouTube live stream or even after it has ended, he often writes that he writes music to his own taste and expects negative reactions from people...
> and so on. That is the opposite of good marketing haha... XD


You are right - what he is doing in terms of public (fanbase) communication is rather limited, somewhat too limited if you ask me. What I meant was probably more that kind of marketing behind the scenes, therefore whatever he (and TSFH itself) did to become successful in the industry mostly before the fanbase discovered the music. Perhaps "good marketing" therefore wasn't the best term


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## Lionel Schmitt (Jan 10, 2021)

Bluemount Score said:


> You are right - what he is doing in terms of public (fanbase) communication is rather limited, somewhat too limited if you ask me. What I meant was probably more that kind of marketing behind the scenes, therefore whatever he (and TSFH itself) did to become successful in the industry mostly before the fanbase discovered the music. Perhaps "good marketing" therefore wasn't the best term


Well, if it's behind the scenes we can't know if it's good. 

I'm seriously confused about the communication part. He is VERY active on facebook - in the fanclub and on his artist page. He often responds to hundreds of comments on his posts and many messages and as said, also comments on plenty of posts in the fanclub on facebook.
It's limited to facebook but that's certainly not the same as limited communication, since it's the biggest platform for general interaction and connections. The fault is on those that don't use it


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## Bluemount Score (Jan 10, 2021)

DarkestShadow said:


> Well, if it's behind the scenes we can't know if it's good.
> 
> I'm seriously confused about the communication part. He is VERY active on facebook - in the fanclub and on his artist page. He often responds to hundreds of comments on his posts and many messages and as said, also comments on plenty of posts in the fanclub on facebook.
> It's limited to facebook but that's certainly not the same as limited communication, since it's the biggest platform for general interaction and connections. The fault is on those that don't use it


Fine, might also be true. It's my fault than that I don't use facebook anymore. I perceived it as a generally less and less used platform. Wish he would be more active on other sites, especially YouTube, replying to comments and such, but that's up to him


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## Lionel Schmitt (Jan 10, 2021)

Bluemount Score said:


> Fine, might also be true. It's my fault than that I don't use facebook anymore. I perceived it as a generally less and less used platform. Wish he would be more active on other sites, especially YouTube, replying to comments and such, but that's up to him


Oh no, who will write his countless hours of music then? :D


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## BenG (Jan 10, 2021)

Not much to add considering what's been said here already, but just thought it was a funny coincidence to here a Thomas Bergensen placement the other day from a track off his 'American Dream' album. I guess some producer/audio person found it on Extreme...

Still cool to hear randomly nonetheless!


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## IFM (Jan 11, 2021)

Arbee said:


> I was curious enough to listen to the free "scheduled" webinar/podcast at savvymusicianacademy.com and read the subsequent email follow ups. Then I went to YouTube expecting to see millions of views of her videos and her testimonial students' videos (as I've done with other PR firms in the past).
> 
> I wanted to be a believer but sadly it came across to me as a rather pushy and stereotypical infomercial with all the emotive selling tactics. Even the audience comments appearing during the webinar looked staged. I don't doubt there has been a huge amount of work put into the course content, so if my "too good to be true" first impression is unfair and it's worth investing please do correct me. And I'm assuming of course your own views expressed here are totally impartial and unsponsored (apologies for saying that but these are the times we live in). Thanks.


Then don't do it and no it isn't staged...very far from it. I don't know why people think success is staged. The "typical" part is exactly what marketing teaches you. I get somewhat defensive because I've been in the belly of the beast (her classes) and know it's the real deal. 

I will admit the Elite program needs a good update because it's a couple years old now and things have changed with Facebook but most of it is still current. I believe that is in progress. 

Now, I know there are other marketing courses out there but the reason I went with Leah's was because she was a musician and was already being quite successful. I had learned some small bits of marketing already and when I saw what she was offering I knew it wasn't snake oil, but you have to put in the work too.


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## telecode101 (Jan 11, 2021)

..


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## rgames (Jan 11, 2021)

DarkestShadow said:


> doesn't run any ads anywhere afaik except 1-2 times on facebook


You can see ads associated with any Facebook page by going to www.facebook.com/ads/library and looking up the page.

At present I see that Bergersen has 6 ads running continuously. Five have been active since July 2020. The other is for his most recent album and is active since Nov.

He's definitely advertising his work!

rgames


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## Lionel Schmitt (Jan 11, 2021)

rgames said:


> You can see ads associated with any Facebook page by going to www.facebook.com/ads/library and looking up the page.
> 
> At present I see that Bergersen has 6 ads running continuously. Five have been active since July 2020. The other is for his most recent album and is active since Nov.
> 
> ...


Ok, than he has a bunch of ads on Facebook. Doesn't change anything about my point.
Running ads on only facebook is not good advertising.


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## IFM (Jan 11, 2021)

DarkestShadow said:


> Ok, than he has a bunch of ads on Facebook. Doesn't change anything about my point.
> Running ads on only facebook is not good advertising.


It is if you know how to target your audience which is what I'm sure (or hope) he's doing.


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## Arbee (Jan 11, 2021)

IFM said:


> Then don't do it and no it isn't staged...very far from it. I don't know why people think success is staged. The "typical" part is exactly what marketing teaches you.


Apologies again my for cautious skepticism and thanks for the reply. I have no doubt at all about her business acumen, hard work and success, that really wasn't my point. I've worked at exec level with digital marketing folk and know just how sophisticated the machine can be. Selling dreams to others is big business as we all know. You've obviously gained a lot from it and that's great feedback.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Jan 11, 2021)

IFM said:


> It is if you know how to target your audience which is what I'm sure (or hope) he's doing.


We're getting away from the point.. it was regarding good advertising and his success. Certainly ads on facebook cannot be counted as good advertising that *makes/made him successful* especially since he has been a big name before ever running a single FB ad. 
Otherwise I could now also just "sponsor" posts on my page to the target audience and be the next TB!  
Good advertising on facebook... is still not good n general, it's very limited.


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## Akarin (Jan 12, 2021)

DarkestShadow said:


> Good advertising on facebook... is still not good n general, it's very limited.



I wouldn't call it limited. It's still the biggest social media platform out there and FB ads also run on Instagram: you reach both old and young people.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Jan 12, 2021)

Akarin said:


> I wouldn't call it limited. It's still the biggest social media platform out there and FB ads also run on Instagram: you reach both old and young people.


Well, it's limited to FB and perhaps and thereby limited. I've seen sample ads follow me around the web and even into my old mail program. THAT's some proper advertising haha.
I'd say something that everyone can do with a few clicks ('sponsoring' posts) is limited to.. not being 'good' advertisement. But advertisement for sure


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## jonathanparham (Jan 12, 2021)

I noticed the Savvy music academy a few years back. I started following a particular artist who blogs about his marketing and using that training and Indepreneur. What I liked is that he's not doing a popular style but selling CDs, and merch. I started the Indeprenur training last month and from what I've seen so far; it's marketing but for the long game. No overnight $$ and the CEO says artists will need to set aside time to learn marketing like they learn their instruments. My perception so far is that it is about building e-commerce 'around' your music and brand; not necessarily directly selling multiples of your music. Ironically something that clicked for me is something Christian Henson said in one of his vlogs a while back. "Start recording your album, document the whole process of making the music including the highs and lows, and throw in the breakup of your significant other; then sell T-shirts" I laughed when I first heard the idea, but not now lol. I have had few advertising clients in my career and listened as they taught about their products and services, but as I started paying more attention to marketing, I'm realizing there's more psychology around me than I thought.


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## borisb2 (Jan 12, 2021)

JohnG said:


> Well, you hit on one thing right off: *"great music that he loves to create, not what supervisors or music libraries want him to create."*
> 
> Do that.


Exactly.

Bergersen, his music and all the marketing to me follows more the structure of a 'regular' artist, less of a media composer/craftsman. Going that route one is looking for/dealing more with A&R managers, record companies etc. We did that all the time (10 years to be exact) when doing pop and edm music - trying to sell our music/projects to companies, negotiating contracts (with help of lawyers) etc. ..

In the end you have to leave the "looking for success loop" and really do what you want/think works/hasnt been done before. I'm not an expert of Thomas Newmans past but I'm sure at some point he sat down at the piano and felt "Hey, that lydian scale sounds nice on piano - I like it / it works / it hasnt been done before" (has it?  )


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## jonathanparham (Jan 12, 2021)

borisb2 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Bergersen, his music and all the marketing to me follows more the structure of a 'regular' artist, less of a media composer/craftsman. Going that route one is looking for/dealing more with A&R managers, record companies etc. We did that all the time (10 years to be exact) when doing pop and edm music - trying to sell our music/projects to companies, negotiating contracts (with help of lawyers) etc. ..


I think that's something I'm gleaning from the thread. Again my apologies to @HarmonyCore if we've totally jacked the thread lol. BUT I think your statement above is correct. Good music needed to get noticed by Studio/Library/Video Game developer etc OR pursuing a career writing as a solo artist. both paths still need good music whether it's sold directly to fans or be used in media.


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## rgames (Jan 14, 2021)

jonathanparham said:


> I think that's something I'm gleaning from the thread. Again my apologies to @HarmonyCore if we've totally jacked the thread lol. BUT I think your statement above is correct. Good music needed to get noticed by Studio/Library/Video Game developer etc OR pursuing a career writing as a solo artist. both paths still need good music whether it's sold directly to fans or be used in media.


The trick, though, is to not get caught up in trying to figure out what's "good" music. Because you can't. Whatever definition you come up with you can find countless examples that defy it but are still successful, either with a fan base or with the media world. Likewise you can find countless examples of music that meets your criteria but has no audience.

Much better to focus on writing a *lot* of music and developing a network rather than spending countless hours worrying over an EQ setting or chord voicing.

rgames


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## jonathanparham (Jan 14, 2021)

rgames said:


> The trick, though, is to not get caught up in trying to figure out what's "good" music. Because you can't. Whatever definition you come up with you can find countless examples that defy it but are still successful, either with a fan base or with the media world. Likewise you can find countless examples of music that meets your criteria but has no audience.
> 
> Much better to focus on writing a *lot* of music and developing a network rather than spending countless hours worrying over an EQ setting or chord voicing.
> 
> rgames


I see your point


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## Big Tick (Jan 28, 2021)

Greg said:


> I messed with online marketing for my music a tiny bit, $500 on FB and instagram ads here and there trying different things. It was totally and completely worthless. I came to the conclusion that it was a massive waste of time and resources. No composer I love got popular from advertising themselves. They got popular because their music is incredible.


Sorry to resurrect an older post, but regarding FB ads, $500 is not even enough for FB algorithms to start targeting the right people.

Granted, it wasn't for marketing music, it was for marketing software. But we only started seeing positive results from FB ads, after putting $500 a day into them. You need some deep marketing pockets to go past the breakeven point with FB.


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## Heinigoldstein (Jan 28, 2021)

JohnG said:


> Regarding marketing.
> 
> Normally, you would segment the market -- figure out who buys music, why (what their criteria are), price sensitivity / insensitivity, behaviour depending on circumstances (sometimes want the cheapest, sometimes willing to pay for higher quality / differentiation).
> 
> ...


You wont have success without marketing, yes. But I agree, that the basis to everything is, to do what You love. People that successfully create music, you might see as stupid, boring and ridiculous like what they do. It‘s pretty arrogant to think, wow, this is so simple, I can do that too. It might appear simple and tasteless to you, but you still have to love it. I was that arrogant myself by the way  The reason is simple. If you create music in a style you don‘t like, you don’t have the same enthusiasm and you never know if it‘s good anyhow, because you hate it anyway.


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