# Transposing instruments -- What's the deal?



## DerGeist (Jan 3, 2020)

Ok, I honestly did try to figure this out through wikipedia but ended up more confused. This is probably a pretty remedial question. I play two instruments, piano and guitar, on which when I play a C, I get a C unless I did something wrong.

...if I played a Bb Trumpet and I played a C note written on a score the trumpet would play an Eb, is that right? I also assume that the farther you get from that home key the harder things get. I bet E is a crappy trumpet key. Is any of this right?

Also, if I'm a composer writing a score that includes a line for my Bb trumpet does my score show it as a C (I assume the trumpet players score does)? That would drive me bonkers. If I had score where a piano and my Bb trumpet form a C7 chord (not very useful i admit) with the trumpet providing the 7th would it be noted C E G C with the final C being the Bb on the trumpet?

My brain hurts. I feel I have all of this wrong.


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## musicalweather (Jan 3, 2020)

If you played a Bb trumpet and were looking at a notated C, you would actually play the pitch of Bb. The actual pitch of the played note would be a major second below what was written. I must say, the available explanations of transposition can be totally confusing. One of the better ones I found is this one:

http://inmusica.fr/SC/Concert_Pitch_-_Instrument_Transposition_chart.htm. 

The table lets you know what you'll actually hear when you are looking at a transposed score. Hope this helps.


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## Living Fossil (Jan 3, 2020)

DerGeist said:


> Also, if I'm a composer writing a score that includes a line for my Bb trumpet does my score show it as a C (I assume the trumpet players score does)? That would drive me bonkers. If I had score where a piano and my Bb trumpet form a C7 chord (not very useful i admit) with the trumpet providing the 7th would it be noted C E G C with the final C being the Bb on the trumpet?
> 
> My brain hurts. I feel I have all of this wrong.



Like with everything: Learning a craft also means exercising it as long as you need to get used to it.
After a while your brain translates all this stuff on autopilot.


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## DerGeist (Jan 3, 2020)

musicalweather said:


> If you played a Bb trumpet and were looking at a notated C, you would actually play the pitch of Bb. The actual pitch of the played note would be a major second below what was written. I must say, the available explanations of transposition can be totally confusing. One of the better ones I found is this one:
> 
> http://inmusica.fr/SC/Concert_Pitch_-_Instrument_Transposition_chart.htm.
> 
> The table lets you know what you'll actually hear when you are looking at a transposed score. Hope this helps.



Thanks, that does help.

20+ years of guitar playing and I didn't realize the guitar was a transposing instrument!


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## mikeh-375 (Jan 3, 2020)

Differing tube lengths necessitate transposition and the instruments fundamental is related to the length of the air column (or string length), which also dictates the instruments range. Secondly, and because of what I've just mentioned, it is possible to maintain the same fingering for these instruments when the part is notated correctly which is essential for players when doubling on auxiliary instruments.


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## Rodney Money (Jan 3, 2020)

Wait until you want to write for piccolo trumpet in A where it’s 1st written down an 8va, then we transpose a normal score, let’s say in the famous Baroque key of D Major, read it as bass clef and changing the key to F Major. So much fun.


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## Rodney Money (Jan 3, 2020)

DerGeist said:


> Ok, I honestly did try to figure this out through wikipedia but ended up more confused. This is probably a pretty remedial question. I play two instruments, piano and guitar, on which when I play a C, I get a C unless I did something wrong.
> 
> ...if I played a Bb Trumpet and I played a C note written on a score the trumpet would play an Eb, is that right? I also assume that the farther you get from that home key the harder things get. I bet E is a crappy trumpet key. Is any of this right?


Basically long story short a written concert C note would be a D on a Bb trumpet. It’s called a Bb trumpet because it’s written C sounds Bb. An Eb alto saxophone’s written C sounds Eb.

Concerning keys, a professional should never complain about the key. If I had a part that was in E Major, I would simply play it on another trumpet, (example Trumpet in C or D) besides a Bb to avoid F sharp, but my fingers are fine with F sharp also. I just performed a recital this past December with a piece in that key because I wanted to play it on my rotary cornet in Bb.


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## JohnG (Jan 3, 2020)

Rodney Money said:


> Concerning keys, a professional should never complain about the key



While I agree with you, it is still true that, in general, string players prefer sharp keys and brass players prefer flat keys.

The more professional they are, the less decisive this consideration, but it is still worth bearing in mind if you don't have the world's best players available -- or if you simply don't know them. If you have access to the best players in Los Angeles or London, you don't need to think about this, but let's face it, that's not so common.

Even in pretty big cities, with very good players, it doesn't hurt to make it easier on them. This is especially true if the parts are difficult and there will be little or no time to rehearse before you start recording.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 3, 2020)

Living Fossil said:


> Like with everything: Learning a craft also means exercising it as long as you need to get used to it.
> After a while your brain translates all this stuff on autopilot.



When will that happen?

Alto clef still makes my brain hurt.


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## Living Fossil (Jan 3, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Alto clef still makes my brain hurt.



If i had to pick a clef i really dislike, my vote would clearly go for the alto clef. The soprano clef is maybe even worse, but it's quite a time i had to deal with that one (Bach's manuscripts of the WTC use it, it's kind of a PITA)


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## Rodney Money (Jan 3, 2020)

JohnG said:


> While I agree with you, it is still true that, in general, string players prefer sharp keys and brass players prefer flat keys.


I’ve learned over the years performing it depends on the piece on what key I like and the range it puts the piece, and plus how it feels in the valves or slide. For example, I much rather play Amazing Grace on a Bb in the key of A than Concert Bb reading C. The range and fingers just feel better. Another mistake is when Band composers arrange orchestral or choral pieces such as “O Magnum Mysterium” originally in the key of D Major. An arranger will automatically transpose it to Eb thinking it’s an easier key but now the work sounds too strained because of range. If the arranger looks at the range instead they would realize that dropping the key to C making the Bb instruments read in D places the piece in the perfect range. Long story short, I don’t think it’s reading flats is better concerning brass, but anything from zero flats or sharps up to 4 sharps or 4 flats is easy in the brass world.


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## NoamL (Jan 3, 2020)

DerGeist said:


> My brain hurts. I feel I have all of this wrong.



*Key Names - *the key-name of the instrument is what note comes out when you play a written C. So "Bb Trumpet" = you write a C in their transposed part, they play it, it comes out sounding Bb. There also exists a "C Trumpet" which, exactly as you imagine, is in concert pitch - you write a C, they play it, it comes out sounding as C. The French Horn is written "in F" so you write a middle C, it'll come out sounding like the F below middle C.

*Transposition shortcuts* - it may be more useful to think of transposition as an interval. So Bb transposing instruments produce a sound a major 2nd lower than written, as in the case of "read C -> sound Bb" but also "A -> G" or "F -> Eb" and so on. The F Horn produces a sound a perfect fifth lower than written so "C -> F" but also "Bb -> Eb" and so on.

*Transposed scores* - there's lots of good reasons for writing your scores transposed not concert pitch. In my experience really speeds up rehearsal when the conductor is looking at the same part as the players. It also gets you, as the composer, into the same mindset as the players. Writing your parts transposed is a good way to keep a watch on whether your parts will "sound" very high or very low on the instruments because, as a general matter, every scheme of transposition works to place most of the notes in the middle of the staff the player will be reading. That's also what the alto clef does for the viola, and the tenor clef does for the cello's upper range. When you write parts the way the players read them then you gain a more intimate understanding of range & tessitura.

*Professionalism* - professional players of transposing instruments just manage transposition daily as part of the craft of their musicianship. An example is the French Horn is actually two transposing instruments, a Bb and F horn, glued together to make one instrument. Sometimes they play notes on the "Bb side" of their instrument, but you don't have to write any notes in Bb transposition, just write the standard part (in F) and let the player figure it out. If you write parts for Bb Trumpet and the players think it'll sound better on their C instruments for whatever reason, they'll just pull out their other horn and play it. Apparently they're quite used to "re-transposing" a part on the fly, although it's not something we should screw up on purpose as composers.


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## bryla (Jan 3, 2020)

A way of reading transposing scores I've discovered I do that – to me at least – beats thinking in intervals up or down is thinking in keys.

If the piece is in C major I read the non-transposable instruments according to their scale degree in C. Reading Bb Clarinets I simply read their scale degree in their corresponding D major key signature and for the French Horn I read scale degrees according to G major. Then I simply have an accumulation of scale degrees and a faster overview of the given harmony.

This works whether you write with key signatures or not and for however small a modulation if you can recognize the given tonality.

This works as well in atonal settings as long as you have a fix point that can act as a Do.


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## Zero&One (Jan 3, 2020)

Thanks for asking, I’ll admit I’m also an ex guitar player for numerous years. But didn’t have the balls to ask 🤨

Thanks for the replies everyone. I think I’ve got it... ish.
You orchestral dudes sure have complex brains. My last band didn’t even tune up half the time


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## NoamL (Jan 3, 2020)

bryla said:


> A way of reading transposing scores I've discovered I do that – to me at least – beats thinking in intervals up or down is thinking in keys.
> 
> If the piece is in C major I read the non-transposable instruments according to their scale degree in C. Reading Bb Clarinets I simply read their scale degree in their corresponding D major key signature and for the French Horn I read scale degrees according to G major. Then I simply have an accumulation of scale degrees and a faster overview of the given harmony.
> 
> ...



Wouldn't be surprised if the really top notch composers and orchestrators did it your way Thomas. It's more of a sheet music mindset and less MIDI-ish like my method.


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## Consona (Jan 3, 2020)

Man, I must be dense as f**k.

How can you play C and it's not C?


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## anjwilson (Jan 3, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> When will that happen?
> 
> Alto clef still makes my brain hurt.



My school's solution to that problem was to make its students pass a sightreading exam of Bach chorales in open score (soprano, alto, tenor, and bass clefs). Practicing for that made a huge difference for me with C clefs. As a bonus, other exotic clefs I encountered were much easier to deal with, too (e.g. French violin clef).


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## Vonk (Jan 3, 2020)

This inexpensive app was developed last year and is a useful reference for transposition, instrument ranges and clefs. I think the author is also on the forum. 
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.calderasound.instrumentationtutor&hl=en
I also get tripped up by the confusion in different VI's and DAW's over middle C being shown as either midi C3 or C4, which doesn't help either.


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## JT (Jan 3, 2020)

JohnG said:


> While I agree with you, it is still true that, in general, string players prefer sharp keys and brass players prefer flat keys.
> 
> The more professional they are, the less decisive this consideration, but it is still worth considering if you don't have the world's best players available -- or if you simply don't know them. If you have access to the best players in Los Angeles or London, you don't need to think about this, but let's face it, that's not so common.
> 
> Even in pretty big cities, with very good players, it doesn't hurt to make it easier on them. This is especially true if the parts are difficult and there will be little or no time to rehearse before you start recording.


John, I think you've summed this up perfectly.


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## mikeh-375 (Jan 3, 2020)

Consona said:


> Man, I must be dense as f**k.
> 
> How can you play C and it's not C?


 see my answer above.....


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## mikeh-375 (Jan 3, 2020)

Living Fossil said:


> If i had to pick a clef i really dislike, my vote would clearly go for the alto clef. The soprano clef is maybe even worse, but it's quite a time i had to deal with that one (Bach's manuscripts of the WTC use it, it's kind of a PITA)



I'm cool with the alto and tenor clef but I did seem to have to work harder for the tenor clef for some reason. (the tenor clef aids in reading Bflat parts of course).
I can transpose notes to different ones and am fluent(ish) in reading horn transpositions too, including the earlier crooked versions, thanks to score study in my formative years. It really does become second nature with practice (like all things music - why wouldn't it!). I never did bother with the soprano clef per se though...life's too damn short....


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## Henu (Jan 4, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> When will that happen?
> 
> Alto clef still makes my brain hurt.



The most fun you'll have it you have perfect pitch, too. Every time I try to sight-read transposed sheet music my brain explodes within 30 seconds. >.< If anyone has a tip for that, I'd be almost willing to pay for it.


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## Living Fossil (Jan 4, 2020)

mikeh-375 said:


> I'm cool with the alto and tenor clef but I did seem to have to work harder for the tenor clef for some reason. (the tenor clef aids in reading Bflat parts of course).



It's maybe a bit inconsequent where my beef comes from: in the alto, the c is just "one step lower" as it would be in the violin clef; however, this "one step lower" also means an octave lower. Which doesn't represent the "usual" centre of my viola use. 
In the tenor clef the c is "one step higher" and than equals the lower octave. However, since i played the cello myself it's more obvious that this c is a much higher note for the cello (than the same C for the viola).
I guess that's the reason why the alto clef comes with a small irritation.


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## Saxer (Jan 4, 2020)

Henu said:


> The most fun you'll have it you have perfect pitch, too. Every time I try to sight-read transposed sheet music my brain explodes within 30 seconds. >.< If anyone has a tip for that, I'd be almost willing to pay for it.



I don‘t have perfect pitch but after a while reading transposed instruments feels more like a different clef instead of a different key. A „c“ in bass clef looks different to a „c“ in treble clef. So what? So if there‘s a “d“ in the Bb-trumpet just call it a „c“.


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## Consona (Jan 4, 2020)

mikeh-375 said:


> see my answer above.....


I still don't get the technicality of it. Why are not instruments made so that C is C?


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## mikeh-375 (Jan 4, 2020)

Consona said:


> I still don't get the technicality of it. Why are not instruments made so that C is C?





.....to facilitate extending ranges of instruments within a family, the tube length (among other parameters), for brass and wind either has to be made longer for a lower range, or shorter for a range above the standard instrument.
This lengthening or shortening changes the fundamental of the tube and because it is impractical for players to learn different fingering to produce the same notes, as opposed to the fingering they have learnt, the part is transposed.
In other words, the written note (transposed note) on the page is played with the fingering learnt (mostly that is, there are some differences I believe, but only slight and certainly not needing re-training nor a digression here), and the notes played (sounded that is), will be determined by the tube length along with other factors such as a wider/thinner bore, greater length, materials etc.

This is why a flautist can play a piccolo and alto flute, an oboe player can play a cor anglais and so on....any clearer?


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## gussunkri (Jan 4, 2020)

Pathetic orchestral players... I can play equally well (bad...) in any key on my electric guitar.  

Seriously though, why haven’t effortlessly chromatical instruments been invented?


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## mikeh-375 (Jan 4, 2020)

Henu said:


> The most fun you'll have it you have perfect pitch, too. Every time I try to sight-read transposed sheet music my brain explodes within 30 seconds. >.< If anyone has a tip for that, I'd be almost willing to pay for it.



Henu, I can sympathise. I don't have PP but I knew someone at college who did and she got very distraught by it. We where both in an advanced aural class and although she could outclass me when writing down tone clusters by ear, I trumped her every time in score reading. I have no advice to offer you there, sorry, other than to say there was another composer in my year who also had PP and yet he was a brilliant score reader!


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## mikeh-375 (Jan 4, 2020)

gussunkri said:


> Pathetic orchestral players... I can play equally well (bad...) in any key on my electric guitar.
> 
> Seriously though, why haven’t effortlessly chromatical instruments been invented?



because of physics in the context of transposing wind and brass. All instruments are chromatic in an orchestra.


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## bryla (Jan 4, 2020)

Any notehead can mean any note. When you accept that, you won't be distracted with perfect pitch either.

This thread had me dig up this wonderful book I bought when I was in the conservatory for $4 

Wonderful way to learn by playing all the exercises.


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## trumpoz (Jan 4, 2020)

Henu said:


> The most fun you'll have it you have perfect pitch, too. Every time I try to sight-read transposed sheet music my brain explodes within 30 seconds. >.< If anyone has a tip for that, I'd be almost willing to pay for it.



I hear your pain - my pitch is anchored to playing the Bb trumpet...... so if I hear a Concert C i'll instinctively twitch my index or index and ring fingers, depending on the octave. 

I remember trying to sight-read a C Trumpet part on C trumpet. I was doing a weird double-transposition in my head to 1) hear the pitch of the note in my head and 2) play the correct finger combination. A mate of mine who is an incredibly accomplished orchestral player (who plays different pitched trumpets easily) was standing there pissing himself laughing at me. I'm usually a damn good sight-reader and sight-transposer on Bb Trumpet - I sounded like a rank beginner. 

So yeah - if anyone has any ideas of how to go about that Im with Henu!


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## Zero&One (Jan 4, 2020)

bryla said:


> This thread had me dig up this wonderful book I bought when I was in the conservatory for $4
> 
> Wonderful way to learn by playing all the exercises.



You post the link again? i just see an Amazon symbol


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## wst3 (Jan 4, 2020)

trumpoz said:


> <snip>A mate of mine who is an incredibly accomplished orchestral player (who plays different pitched trumpets easily) was standing there pissing himself laughing at me. I'm usually a damn good sight-reader and sight-transposer on Bb Trumpet - I sounded like a rank beginner.
> 
> So yeah - if anyone has any ideas of how to go about that Im with Henu!


Wish I did!

I played horn for many years, and I too became "anchored" in the world a fifth down. Switching between horn and trumpet was, at first, a bit frustrating. I'd press a couple keys and expect a certain not, but it never arrived. Eventually I became comfortable with the difference, although I was never one that could switch between differently pitched instruments like your friend. (We would sometimes swap tubing to drop the horn to Eb - made me crazy! And I do not have perfect pitch, but I do get used to things.

What solved it for me - I think - was when I started taking the guitar seriously. I was playing with a group of folks that made liberal use of the capo. Somehow that broke the deadlock in my brain. While this fingering ought to sound like an E Major chord it could, in fact, sound like anything, depending on where I placed the capo.

I eventually started using the capo to play different chord shapes for variety, and became quite adept at transposing in my head. That was very useful.

Now reading a score, that is an entirely different animal, for me anyway. When I was younger, and reading scores frequently enough to stay fluent, I was fine with scores written in the "native" key for the instrument. I was equally comfortable reading a score written at concert pitch. I have no idea how. None!

Now? Well I can't remember the last time I had to read a score, it was probably 15 years ago, and I struggled even then. If I had to do so today I think my brain would melt.

And sadly, when I am writing, Finale makes it so easy to keep the parts in their proper keys and the score in concert pitch. WAY too easy.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 4, 2020)

Saxer said:


> I don‘t have perfect pitch but after a while reading transposed instruments feels more like a different clef instead of a different key. A „c“ in bass clef looks different to a „c“ in treble clef. So what? So if there‘s a “d“ in the Bb-trumpet just call it a „c“.



I play recorder, which as you know is written in treble clef at concert pitch (actually down an octave for soprano). You do the transposing, so the same fingering plays a G on soprano recorder and C below it on alto.

But alto clef has never made sense to me, because it's only one letter lower lower (+ an 8ve). It would have been easier for every viola player - and more importantly for me - if they'd always just been trained to read treble clef and play down an octave!

And tenor clef?! I got yer tenor clef right here.


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## bryla (Jan 4, 2020)

Zero&One said:


> You post the link again? i just see an Amazon symbol


It's called Preparatory Exercises in Score Reading by R.O. Morris


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## bbunker (Jan 4, 2020)

Consona said:


> I still don't get the technicality of it. Why are not instruments made so that C is C?



OK: Imagine that you invent an instrument. Let's call it a Consonaphone. It's in C, it starts on middle C and has a three-octave range. Awesome. No transposition problems, we can go home.

Now, lots of people buy your Consonaphone, and want to have more options. "We want lower notes!" the people cry, and to keep things simple, you build a bigger one and make it an octave lower and in C. Great! Now you have a Soprano Consonaphone, and a Tenor Consonaphone.

Even MORE people want Consonaphones! Now there's a problem: the people love their Soprano and Tenor instruments, but those notes at the bottom of the treble clef are awkward on the Soprano, and too squeaky on the Tenor, and people want to play a 'consort' of Consonaphones together, and that means playing notes in that middle range. Now - what do you do? There are no more "C" instruments to build between the Soprano and Tenor. Adding 'extensions' to the Soprano won't change the awkwardness of it. You do play guitar, though, so you wonder if there were some way to Capo up the Tenor so that it wouldn't be squeaky.

So, that's what you do. You basically just capo up every note on the tenor by a fourth, so the whole thing starts on the F below middle C and goes up three octaves from there. Now your Soprano Consonaphonist comes over to play some tunes with another Soprano player and a Tenor player, but the Soprano player playing the new Alto Consonaphone is having a lot of trouble figuring out all the new fingerings, since every note is on a different key. You have the idea - well, on Guitar, I write out the same notes and tab wherever the Capo is...why can't I do that on the Alto Consonaphone? So that's what you do: you just shift everything so that the low F now LOOKS like a C, so that any Soprano Consonaphone player can play an Alto, and vice versa. Everyone loves it, everyone's happy.

The Consonaphone gets so popular that people are writing a LOT of new music for it. Some of it is very difficult, and people are noticing that the fingerings between the first and second octave make trills and runs in sharp keys really difficult! Some people weld on new keys as alternates, and that works OK, but one of the Consonaphone factories tries a new idea - not a Soprano or Alto Consonaphone, but a "Mezzosoprano" Consonaphone that's in between those two! It starts on A, those sharp keys are a breeze, and all the trills and runs are far easier. Players need to switch between the normal and the new one though - so they use the same trick as they did with the Alto.

Now it's only been a few years, and the Consonaphone is now available in C Soprano and Tenor, an F Alto and Bass, A Mezzo and Baritone versions, and a few clever clogs built a Contrabass in D (They tried to make a C version but the holes were too far apart to be playable!). Four different keys!

And that's not even getting started on the Consonahorn that takes off the regular mouthpiece and replaces it with one you buzz your lips into, and uses a bunch of crazy tubing pieces to make it fit into the right key. They weren't endorsed by Consonaphonics Limited, so they can deal with having their instruments in 10 different keys.


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## trumpoz (Jan 4, 2020)

wst3 said:


> And sadly, when I am writing, Finale makes it so easy to keep the parts in their proper keys and the score in concert pitch. WAY too easy.



Sammy Nestico talks about the days where it was all written by hand and the great arrangers/orchestrators would write a transposed score. 

A well know and revered arranger in Melbourne would, when pushed for time, not even bother with a score. He would just write the individual parts, transposed and it would sound amazing.

I grew up in the digital age where skills like that are not essential anymore.


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## David Cuny (Jan 5, 2020)

Consona said:


> I still don't get the technicality of it. Why are not instruments made so that C is C?


They are, actually. It's just a matter of perspective.

Here's a story that will hopefully clarify things.

Let's say that you - a guitarist - were invited to play at a gig. But you're asked to play a soprano ukulele. Of course, you say "Sure thing!" because it's a paying gig, thinking _"No problem, a uke is basically a small guitar."_

So you borrow a uke from your sister, finger a D major chord, and strum. Having perfect pitch, you notice the chord that _sounds_ on the uke isn't a D major chord, but a G major chord.

_"That's odd"_, you think. So you pluck the top string of the uke. "_Hey_", you complain to your sister, "_this top note is an 'A'. It's supposed to be an 'E'."_

Your sister lovingly replies, _"No, dummy. It's a ukulele, not a guitar. It's tuned differently."_

Since the gig is in 30 minutes, you don't have time to learn how to play the uke properly. So you decide that you'll ignore your sister and treat the uke as if it were a guitar.

Having paid attention in Music Theory 101 class, you realize that fingering will sound a perfect fourth higher on the ukulele than it does on the guitar. In order to convert uke chords into the "right" guitar chords, you'll have to transpose the written chord up a perfect fifth. So you grab the chord chart to the first song:

*C | F | G7 | C <-- GUITAR VERSION*

and rewrite it using the magic of tranposition as:

*G | C | D7 | F <-- TRANSPOSED VERSION*

Hurrah! You can play the uke using the "transposed" chords, without having to learn to use the uke properly.

You hustle off to the gig, where you're stiffed on the payment, but there's plenty of booze, so it's OK. 

As you nurse a hangover, you muse to yourself how much simpler it would have been if the uke music had been written using the transposed version in the first place. That way, you could pick up a uke and it would "just work", without having to learn how to play the uke.

This is the logic of "transposing" instruments: you the same fingering across a family of transposing instruments, instead of having to learn the "right" way to finger it. That makes it easier for the musician to learn the clarinets, since they all use the same notation even though they produce different sounds.

Of course, as soon as you try playing a transposing instrument with "normal" (non-transposed) music, the trick breaks down. But that's another story.


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## Consona (Jan 5, 2020)

Aha! So I play a G chord on the ukulele, but sound-wise what comes out of the instrument is a C chord! Right?


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## David Cuny (Jan 5, 2020)

Consona said:


> Aha! So I play a G chord on the ukulele, but sound-wise what comes out of the instrument is a C chord! Right?


Yes.  

And that's the idea of "transposing" instruments. It's not that they aren't "C" instruments. It's just they aren't "C" instruments relative to some other instrument you already know.


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## JohnG (Jan 5, 2020)

Ledger lines or, more properly, avoiding them, supplied some of the impetus behind clefs. When music notation was developing, you had to do that with a quill. It made sense to put the notes into five lines if possible. Plus easier for the player / singer to read in some cases. 

Even in my own salad days, I used "8va" more than I do now, with Sibelius or Finale drawing those perfect ledger lines under high (or low) notes.

Someone else mentioned "families" of instruments -- saxophones come to mind -- which allow any player who learned, say, tenor, to pick up a soprano or alto or whatever and at least be able to manage the fingerings, which would also sound in the right key.


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## JJP (Jan 5, 2020)

trumpoz said:


> Sammy Nestico talks about the days where it was all written by hand and the great arrangers/orchestrators would write a transposed score.
> 
> A well know and revered arranger in Melbourne would, when pushed for time, not even bother with a score. He would just write the individual parts, transposed and it would sound amazing.
> 
> I grew up in the digital age where skills like that are not essential anymore.



I worked with Sammy Nestico and still work with a few people who write transposed scores in Hollywood. For conductors and people who have the skills, it can actually be more efficient because the score matches the parts.

The important thing to remember is that instrument transpositions exist to adjust how music looks on the page and lies on the instrument for the player. It's not about the composer. 

However, one great benefit to writers of a transposed score (not just parts) is that you can look at the score and instantly get a sense of where instruments are within their ranges and quickly assess the balance and overall tone of the ensemble. Orchestration problems sometimes are blatantly obvious because a transposed score looks more like it sounds.

If you don't deal with real instruments, it can seem like abstract gobbledygook. However when it comes to live instruments, transpositions are essential and need to be understood.


P.S. I went straight to parts without a score for a few charts many years ago. Would simply conduct from a lead trumpet part and keep a chord part or lead sheet handy or something. It's not too hard to do for jazz type writing if you can hear the music in your head. If you are waiting for a DAW to tell you how it is supposed to sound, well, good luck. 😉


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## bryla (Jan 5, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Ledger lines or, more properly, avoiding them, supplied some of the impetus behind clefs. When music notation was developing, you had to do that with a quill. It made sense to put the notes into five lines if possible.


Clefs originated when the line was introduced. At first notes were simply written in a relative manner. When the line was introduced you suddenly had to know which note was the note the line represented. First it was the F-clef. That line was red. Then later the second line was introduced to show absolutely how high notes went from that F and the C-clef was introduced as a yellow line.

Interestingly these two notes were chosen because they are the only 'white key' notes thats have a leading tone.

Then to further demarcate the distance the black A-line (without a clef) was introduced and the distance was split into thirds. Funny thing is that at this time position of the lines was about the ambitus of the melody. So if it was in a hypo-mode the F-clef could be above the C-clef.

Next line was another third interval – either above C or below F according to the needs of the melody.

Then at the end we got the G-clef. Now all three clefs were made a fifth about and each represented the root of one of Guido's hexachords. The soft on F (molle), the natural on C and the hard on G (durum) - for subscribers to the German speaking musical tradition it is also from this that we get the terms 'moll' and 'dur' for minor and major.

All of this way before the leger lines as seen in this little example of respectively the 9th 10th 11th 12th and 14th century.




Sorry for the slight historical detour.


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## JohnG (Jan 5, 2020)

all fair, Bryla -- I was thinking of parts for instruments such as cello and bassoon that use multiple clefs. Thanks for the history.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 5, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Ledger lines or, more properly, avoiding them, supplied some of the impetus behind clefs



I still say treble and bass clefs + 8va and 8vb is plenty.

It's hard to read more than three of them, at least I find it hard.


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## NoamL (Jan 5, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I still say treble and bass clefs + 8va and 8vb is plenty.
> 
> It's hard to read more than three of them, at least I find it hard.



But what @JJP wrote is true.

This chord is balanced






Because the relative tessituras are the same






Meanwhile the following






seems a BIT unorthodox when you look at in piano reduction, but in full score you can really see the problem:


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## NoamL (Jan 5, 2020)

(please see my address below for where to mail the check, violists)


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## rgames (Jan 5, 2020)

I don't know the history but I think transposing instruments really come from the historical practicalities of wind instruments, particularly some woodwinds.

Let's say you write something in the key of concert E. That's in the key of F# on a Bb clarinet, not a very nice key to play in, especially with a clarinet form the 1800's. Fingerings are difficult and not as fluid as in, say, G. Well, enter the A clarinet, where the key of E is played in G and is much easier to play. That's why professional clarinetists always have both a Bb and an A clarinet (and possibly a few in other keys) and a good orchestrator will adapt the parts appropriately.

You could just write both parts in concert pitch but then the clarinetist is going to have to use different fingerings for the same written note if he switches between the two instruments to make it easier to play. Rather than do that we link the fingerings to a fixed set of written notes and transpose the parts. That makes it a LOT easier on the clarinetist: when he sees a written "C" it's the same fingerings regardless of which instrument he's playing.

As instrument designs have matured it is true that a professional WW player doesn't really find it much harder to play in F# than in G (older WW didn't have as many keys and required much more difficult fingerings). So if notation conventions were being developed today then there might not be transposing instruments other than in octaves to avoid too many ledger lines.

But here's the thing: with a Bb clarinet: _it's only one freaking step._ So why bother - you're not saving any ledger lines. If you're transposing a fourth or a fifth then fine, you're saving yourself some ledger lines and making it easier to read and providing a more compact score. But not just one step. Likewise with alto cleff - an octave and one step. Just make it a freaking octave. But I'm guessing that creates some common fingering issues for violin/viola.

But I digress...

rgames


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## mikeh-375 (Jan 5, 2020)

NoamL said:


> But what @JJP wrote is true.
> 
> ..............
> 
> ...




Noam, I see nothing wrong with the vlas above the 2nds. What is your context for calling this a problem.
Good voice leading could easily lead to this spacing, as could a deliberate calculation or a timbral reason for such and there would be no problem. Players will understand their positions here and will adjust to what is required musically. Am I missing your point?


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## JJP (Jan 5, 2020)

Assuming this is a simple chord as Noam illustrates, it's a problem with the tessitura. The 2nd violins are low in their range, whereas the violas are in a higher section of theirs. This makes the balance of the chord more difficult and requires the players to adjust. The different clefs make this very clear.

It's not such a big deal in this case with the strings, but could be done better. Why force the players to adjust for weak orchestration? If these were woodwinds, it could be almost impossible to achieve a well-balanced chord depending on the instruments.


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## mikeh-375 (Jan 6, 2020)

Yes, I did mention that the players will adjust (also without much difficulty). However, one shouldn't really perceive that spacing (for strings) as weak imv, its just different I'd say @JJP. You'll know there is hardly a _level_ (dynamic) discrepancy between a viola G (sul d) and a violin e (sul d, forgetting sulG for now, although that might be a better position depending on the intensity required), that can't be sorted out. Timbrally yes, there is a difference, also depending on the way notes are played, distinctions can be made and that's the point I'd like to make - the timbre is available to be exploited and thinking colourfully has always been utilised within much of the canon. Text book scoring may frown on this sort of crossing, (although I can't recall one saying so), but the reality is that crossed voicing is common, even necessary and a vital orchestrational resource as you'll be aware - even in a simple triad. One can easily see this example as an enclosure, much in the same way an oboe might be enclosed by 2 clarinets.
The colour resource - the tinting, glazing if you will - of a humble c maj triad by thinking a little more unconventionally can be powerful or subtle, (or bloody awful..  ) and one needs to know one's onions well enough to conceive of such colour in a way that guarantees success in performance.

Voice leading is an important aspect of this of course and one that directly impinges on the players part and if musical, sensible and/or exciting reasons are given to justify any non-textbook scoring, especially because of the parts musical impetus or inevitability, or the composer's imagination, then it's valid. Obviously other factors come into play re balance in certain situations, but as you intimate, for strings (and that's what we are talking about), they are more forgiving and subtle timbral and/ or musical deviations are to be explored imv if the music requires it and the knowledge is there to pull it off. One has to be sensible of course, but not straight jacketed.

I seem to have blathered on about an innocuous little triad, but the textbooks do not (cannot really) take into account the full gamut of timbre and it's use in combinations. Instead the text may write about generalities and safety first principles that although sensible, are not the only option a lot of the time - one can also apply imagination. Anyhow, my 2 cents (ok maybe 10cents), I know you are a scorer too and will know all of the above, so respect, it's a lifetimes study isn't it?...and them some.


If I may, perhaps you will take a moment to listen to this. I arranged this with some instances of cross-over parts for strings. (recorded at AIR for those interested)........admittedly not a simple triad though, and not really relevant I suppose but the point being that it wasn't approached on the ms with the hierarchical strictures we are talking about in mind.


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## Heinigoldstein (Jan 6, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I play recorder, which as you know is written in treble clef at concert pitch (actually down an octave for soprano). You do the transposing, so the same fingering plays a G on soprano recorder and C below it on alto.
> 
> But alto clef has never made sense to me, because it's only one letter lower lower (+ an 8ve). It would have been easier for every viola player - and more importantly for me - if they'd always just been trained to read treble clef and play down an octave!
> 
> And tenor clef?! I got yer tenor clef right here.


I never understood this either. Bass is just -8ve compared to cellos. So why not use the same method for violas compared to violins. As you stated, it‘s just one note. 
It‘s probaly a way to make it more difficult for fools like me !


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## mikeh-375 (Jan 6, 2020)

Heinigoldstein said:


> I never understood this either. Bass is just -8ve compared to cellos. So why not use the same method for violas compared to violins. As you stated, it‘s just one note.
> It‘s probaly a way to make it more difficult for fools like me !




The alto clef gets rid of the need for clumsy ledger lines.


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## ThomasS (Jan 6, 2020)

There is an old trick for quickly reading any transposing instrument, which was taught to me by Russell Garcia about 45 years ago (believe it or not I studied with him, and later worked with him).

As I watched him work I asked how he could do what he does so fast and he said he only thinks in terms of "solfege" (that is the notes have the names do-di-re-ri-mi-fa-fi-so-si-la-li-ti-do going up and do-ti-te-la-le-so-se-fa-mi-me-re-ra-do going down) and he just glances at the key signature to see where do is (last flat is fa, last sharp is ti) and then reads away calling the notes in sofege in his mind. He primarily reads by interval from that point, and he can quickly see relationships in chords that tell him the root, seventh, or whatever and then what is the chord.

At first I thought this was a very difficult and cumbersome way of reading, but I found it didn't take too long to master and have used it ever since. What impressed me is that Russ often didn't compose or arrange by writing a score, but just wrote each part, - I mean he directly wrote the parts for each player as he arranged, on separate pieces of paper, all transposed and ready to give to the players, without ever writing a score, no matter what the written transposition of any instrument was. He would sometimes glance at the first trumpet part if he needed to check a spot in the arrangement. He arranged for Ella Fitzgerald, Louis Armstrong and just about every other great jazz artist in the 40's-50's this way. He knew the "spelling" of any chord in terms of solfege, which greatly simplified his use of chords because whatever key he was in, the spelling of any chord was the same. That is a Dm7 in the key of C was spelled re-fa-la-do, but F#m7 in the key of E was also spelled re-fa-la-do, and so forth. So he just had to learn how to spell any chord once and it was the same in any key, which if you think about it, is one twelfth the amount of learning you need if you think in terms of pitches instead of solfege.

Anyway, what I got from this is that in music notation, any spot on a stave is not a "note" in the pure pitch sense, but rather just a relationship to the note before or after it. A different way of thinking that really frees up the mind.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 6, 2020)

ThomasS said:


> he only thinks in terms of "solfege"



With a movable doh, sure - but that doesn't help a lot if you want to know what note you're reading or writing and how it fits with all the other notes.

And fixed doh is the same thing as calling the notes their actual letter names.

Sofege is great, but I see it as something different.


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## bryla (Jan 6, 2020)

It’s just the way the I described my method. To me pretty useful and bulletproof.


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## NoamL (Jan 6, 2020)

@mikeh-375 & @JJP you both make great points. I didn't intend to imply that tessitura-blending writing is the only acceptable way of writing for strings, just that a comparison of tessitura will inform how a piece sounds and particularly whether one of the string sections will naturally foreground itself. If any part is far above the others in relative tessitura, it will naturally be a bit more soaring or penetrating. This helps me figure out why for instance, the cellos are often a better pick than violas for a soaring melody in the octave between middle C and treble C.


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## JJP (Jan 6, 2020)

I frequently find myself using solfege (moveable "doh") when proofreading transposed parts and scores. It wasn't taught to me that way, I just started doing it. 

Probably comes from my jazz days of having to play tunes in different keys.


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## NoamL (Jan 6, 2020)

Heinigoldstein said:


> I never understood this either. Bass is just -8ve compared to cellos. So why not use the same method for violas compared to violins. As you stated, it‘s just one note.
> It‘s probaly a way to make it more difficult for fools like me !



Because the violas are a 5th down in tessitura from the violins not an octave.

Really the violas should use bass clef +8


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 6, 2020)

NoamL said:


> Because the violas are a 5th down in tessitura from the violins not an octave.
> 
> Really the violas should use bass clef +8



That also makes sense.

...well, except for the word "tessitura," which before this was out of range of my vocabulary.


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## trumpoz (Jan 6, 2020)

JJP said:


> If you are waiting for a DAW to tell you how it is supposed to sound, well, good luck. 😉



When I first started out I was looking for something so that I could accurately hear what I was writing on paper. A friend of mine who is a well-regarded composer quite bluntly said something to the effect of that!


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## mikeh-375 (Jan 7, 2020)

NoamL said:


> @mikeh-375 & @JJP you both make great points. I didn't intend to imply that tessitura-blending writing is the only acceptable way of writing for strings, just that a comparison of tessitura will inform how a piece sounds and particularly whether one of the string sections will naturally foreground itself. If any part is far above the others in relative tessitura, it will naturally be a bit more soaring or penetrating. This helps me figure out why for instance, the cellos are often a better pick than violas for a soaring melody in the octave between middle C and treble C.



I understand Noam, I was just querying and didn't really think you thought it the only way as I've read lots of your posts. As you'll know, Strings are more forgiving of tessitura in extremis (leaving timbre aside for a moment), than say wind or brass because they can control their dynamics more readily.
A 'timbral' approach to strings in scoring (crossing of lines, unusual spacings, doublings, imaginative divisi, effects etc) is an advanced approach to scoring and one that can be explored in midi too I'd say. The beauty of this of course is that because of the rich overtones throughout the string section, all manner of spacings and inventiveness has a good chance of sounding well. As always one is limited only by imagination and technique....and if you are not in your ivory tower...a deadline....


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## Maxtrixbass (Jan 7, 2020)

Although this was explained, it might be easier to see transposing instruments from a player's perspective.

If I learn my notes/scales/fingerings on an alto sax, I can keep them all for any sax I play---soprano through bari. To make up for the difference in pitch that comes out (because of the different sizes) one transposes. If I see "C" on the page it always means I put my first finger down if its a soprano or bari sax. From a player's perspective its very consistent.

Most instrumental consorts are like this. Play flute and you know the playing patterns for piccolo through bass flute. Play clarinet and you can play soprano through bass clarinet. At some time each instrumental "choir" (SATB) had a member in "concert pitch", but sometimes those get lost over time (hence no common sax today in "C").

We string players didn't get that luxury. Play a different sized instrument and you have to relearn the shapes, patterns and notes. Imagine a six string soprano guitar, alto guitar, tenor guitar, and bass guitar where once you learned one, you could hop over to any other. 

Cello has four strings just like my bass, but its like starting over again when I try to play it. If one was transposing I could keep all my familiar patterns. Its kinda too bad we weren't all transposing instruments.


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## starpainter (Jan 7, 2020)

Maxtrixbass said:


> Imagine a six string soprano guitar, alto guitar, tenor guitar, and bass guitar where once you learned one, you could hop over to any other.


Actually, they do exist nowadays


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## starpainter (Jan 8, 2020)

Rodney Money said:


> Concerning keys, a professional should never complain about the key. If I had a part that was in E Major, I would simply play it on another trumpet, (example Trumpet in C or D) besides a Bb to avoid F sharp, but my fingers are fine with F sharp also. I just performed a recital this past December with a piece in that key because I wanted to play it on my rotary cornet in Bb.


While that is true, it does make a difference timbre wise, and the ability to play certain techniques though. A Bb on a clarinet always is a pain, and an F# too. Sure you can, as a pro, use your playing technique - as in 'lip and jaw muscles' - as a miracle, but it will be tricky.
Also, for string instruments, it can be very important to work in a key that is 'practical'. For instance, you want your lowest note played with vibrato, and you have a double bass lowest note E, and you are working in E, you will face a problem there.

Just my 2 cents ofcourse


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## David Cuny (Jan 8, 2020)

Maxtrixbass said:


> Cello has four strings just like my bass, but its like starting over again when I try to play it. If one was transposing I could keep all my familiar patterns. Its kinda too bad we weren't all transposing instruments.


Unlike the violin, viola and cello, the bass viol came from a different family of instruments - the viol. The higher-pitched viols were obsoleted by the instruments from the violin family.


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## Maxtrixbass (Jan 8, 2020)

David Cuny said:


> Unlike the violin, viola and cello, the bass viol came from a different family of instruments - the viol. The higher-pitched viols were obsoleted by the instruments from the violin family.


Yes, this is true. I guess my point, with regards to transposing instruments from a players perspective, is that a violin player could pick up a viola and read the same treble clef and use the same fingerings if the viola was a transposing instrument. Its a little confusing for the composer, but for the player this would be a nice, easy flexibility.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 8, 2020)

starpainter said:


> For instance, you want your lowest note played with vibrato, and you have a double bass lowest note E, and you are working in E, you will face a problem there.



You have to give the player instructions to run around in circles like a Leslie.


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## brenneisen (Jan 8, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> You have to give the player instructions to run around in circles like a Leslie.



if it's a cello or contrabass you can just spin it


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 8, 2020)

brenneisen said:


> if it's a cello or contrabass you can just spin it



I was talking about the famous circle-running arco technique employed by avant garde composers.


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## brenneisen (Jan 8, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I was talking about the famous circle-running arco technique employed by avant garde composers.



that's super pro stuff, rockabilly spin is all I can get from my mediocre players


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## trumpoz (Jan 8, 2020)

If you go back in brass instrument history vales, and the ability to play a chromatic scale were not always a given. Baroque-era instruments were based on the natural harmonics of the instrument so any one trumpet/horn could only play notes harmonically related to the fundamental. In order for those instruments to play in different keys, different tuning crook was substituted to change the length of the instrument and thus the fundamental and resulting pitches of the harmonics. 

Nowadays generally different pitched trumpets are used predominantly for the timbre and where certain lines site in relation to the harmonic series on the instrument. 

In professional orchestras C trumpet tends to be popular due to its slightly brighter timbre than Bb. A D trumpet and piccolo in A/Bb are generally used for Baroque music, though the Piccolo seems more popular. 

A decision on piccolo in A vs Bb is player choice and the key of the piece. Piccolo in A will reduce the number of sharps in a key signature whilst Bb will reduce the number of flats. 

Players that perform on instruments of different transpositions regularly such as saxophone, clarinet and trumpet players are able to change their inner sense of pitch to cater for each instrument, and that is done through a hell of a lot of hard work


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## starpainter (Jan 9, 2020)

trumpoz said:


> Players that perform on instruments of different transpositions regularly such as saxophone, clarinet and trumpet players are able to change their inner sense of pitch to cater for each instrument, and that is done through a hell of a lot of hard work


Most definately. A clarinet in Eb is a completely different instrument than the regular Bb. A tenor sax is totally different beast to tackle than an alt sax and so on. You are in fact playing different instruments (while from the same family). The sax players that are excellent in playing the whole family of sax instruments, well, that's not a needle in a hay stack, that's finding one specific electron in that hay stack.
Main reason being you need to get the correct timbre out of it.


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## mikeh-375 (Jan 9, 2020)

...and to completely bamboozle the OP - the double french horn in F and B flat.......😆


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## Rodney Money (Jan 9, 2020)

starpainter said:


> While that is true, it does make a difference timbre wise, and the ability to play certain techniques though. A Bb on a clarinet always is a pain, and an F# too. Sure you can, as a pro, use your playing technique - as in 'lip and jaw muscles' - as a miracle, but it will be tricky.
> Also, for string instruments, it can be very important to work in a key that is 'practical'. For instance, you want your lowest note played with vibrato, and you have a double bass lowest note E, and you are working in E, you will face a problem there.
> 
> Just my 2 cents ofcourse


There is “no pain” with the notes Bb and F# on a clarinet. Those are notes middle schoolers learn in their first year of playing, and if a composer was really uptight about having a vibrato on a low E then they could get their music played with double basses with extensions to low C, dub it with samples in the recording process, or get over themselves with their ego.


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## starpainter (Jan 9, 2020)

Rodney Money said:


> There is “no pain” with the notes Bb and F# on a clarinet. Those are notes middle schoolers learn in their first year of playing, and if a composer was really uptight about having a vibrato on a low E then they could get their music played with double basses with extensions to low C, dub it with samples in the recording process, or get over themselves with their ego.


Believe me, with the Bb there is a 'pain' sound wise, which is the reason I always play that note in a totally different way (finger wise) to open up the tone (timbre) of the instrument, and adjust with my lips to compensate the comma too high as to intonation. The airhole of both the valves simply is too small to get the sound perfect with the traditional fingering. As for the F# (higher than that Bb) it is typical to a clarinet that it sounds sharper than the other notes. And yes, I'm probably nitpicking about that one, but still the difference is there.
As for the double bass, correct, the 5 string one would solve that. Merely wanted to point out that using a key has direct consequences to the real players, that's all. And that is why it is important for composers to understand that, and keep that always in mind.

ps: some even say the reason zimmer likes D, is because of the 5string double bass to be able to play it with vibrato


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## mikeh-375 (Jan 9, 2020)

starpainter said:


> ........
> As for the double bass, correct, the 5 string one would solve that. *Merely wanted to point out that using a key has direct consequences to the real players, that's all. And that is why it is important for composers to understand that, and keep that always in mind.*



All keys are of course still allowed, the point @starpainter makes is still valid though. It is more a question of idiomatic awareness rather than restrictions on key. As always, the best music is also informed by the instruments capability. Once a composer understands this, their expressive breadth is greatly enhanced.
Re the double bass. One might be able to fake a vib on the low open E by fingering the E 8va above on the A string and oscillating the finger (not playing the note with the bow), to vibrate sympathetically....dunno....just a thought, it'd probably be too subtle. 5 string is best of course...totes obvs.


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## starpainter (Jan 9, 2020)

mikeh-375 said:


> All keys are of course still allowed, the point @starpainter makes is still valid though. It is more a question of idiomatic awareness rather than restrictions on key. As always, the best music is also informed by the instruments capability. Once a composer understands this, their expressive breadth is greatly enhanced.
> Re the double bass. One might be able to fake a vib on the low open E by fingering the E 8va above on the A string and oscillating the finger (not playing the note with the bow), to vibrate sympathetically....dunno....just a thought, it'd probably be too subtle. 5 string is best of course...totes obvs.


In all honesty, I do like the 'heaps of b and #'s', it is a bit more challenging to play.


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## mikeh-375 (Jan 10, 2020)

starpainter said:


> In all honesty, I do like the 'heaps of b and #'s', it is a bit more challenging to play.



Funnily enough I was just listening to An American In Paris and noticed the section in E maj i.e F sharp for the Bb trpts of course.


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## DerGeist (Jan 10, 2020)

mikeh-375 said:


> All keys are of course still allowed, the point @starpainter makes is still valid though. It is more a question of idiomatic awareness rather than restrictions on key. As always, the best music is also informed by the instruments capability. Once a composer understands this, their expressive breadth is greatly enhanced.
> Re the double bass. One might be able to fake a vib on the low open E by fingering the E 8va above on the A string and oscillating the finger (not playing the note with the bow), to vibrate sympathetically....dunno....just a thought, it'd probably be too subtle. 5 string is best of course...totes obvs.


OP back again...while I'm asking remedial questions, that key has me confused. Why are the naturals there?


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## DerGeist (Jan 10, 2020)

mikeh-375 said:


> ...and to completely bamboozle the OP - the double french horn in F and B flat.......😆


I refuse to believe any of this! You are all trolls sent to spread misinformation! 

Thanks everyone, I have learned a lot.


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## Kent (Jan 10, 2020)

DerGeist said:


> OP back again...while I'm asking remedial questions, that key has me confused. Why are the naturals there?


That's just to cancel out the previous key signature. It's not technically part of the new key.


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## mikeh-375 (Jan 10, 2020)

DerGeist said:


> OP back again...while I'm asking remedial questions, that key has me confused. Why are the naturals there?



The naturals are cancelling the previous key signature...in this case D major or B minor (C sharp and F sharp)..standard notational [email protected] just beat me.


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## DerGeist (Jan 10, 2020)

kmaster said:


> That's just to cancel out the previous key signature. It's not technically part of the new key.


Kind what I figured. I'm not against the occasional courtesy natural but I think (As a piano player) I would prefer they just write the key without the naturals. Sheet music clutter is my diner table issue...when I eat alone


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## JT (Jan 10, 2020)

DerGeist said:


> OP back again...while I'm asking remedial questions, that key has me confused. Why are the naturals there?


The naturals should not be in the key signature. This is because we're moving from a sharp key to a flat key, the naturals are not needed. But, if you're moving from 4 sharps to 2 sharps, then the naturals should be included in the key change.


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## David Cuny (Jan 10, 2020)

DerGeist said:


> OP back again...while I'm asking remedial questions, that key has me confused. Why are the naturals there?


To cancel the accidentals (presumedly F# and C#) of the prior key signature.

A bit redundant, but sometimes it's better safe than sorry.

Ah, I see I'm late to _this_ party. 

The question sounds a bit like the beginning of a really bad musical joke: "_Why did the composer put in naturals before the key signature change from D to Gb?

Because he was accidentally courteous."_


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