# Holst Mars Intro Mockup



## marclawsonmusic (Oct 31, 2016)

Hi all,

My intent was to find a passage with very wide dynamics and limit my palette to only a handful of libraries.



This was made using:

CineWinds
CineBrass
Evolution World Series Percussion
LASS Lite
Feedback is welcome.

Thanks,
Marc


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## marclawsonmusic (Nov 1, 2016)

Bump


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## Jdiggity1 (Nov 1, 2016)

Did you learn or gain anything from this exercise?
What sort of short-comings did you come across from limiting your libraries to only these four? Or did it have the opposite effect, and you will limit your library use from now on?


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## marclawsonmusic (Nov 1, 2016)

Jdiggity1 said:


> Did you learn or gain anything from this exercise?
> What sort of short-comings did you come across from limiting your libraries to only these four? Or did it have the opposite effect, and you will limit your library use from now on?



Yes, I learned a great deal going through this process. Some specifics:

No matter how many dynamic layers they have, samples will never sound as dynamic as real instruments. I couldn't even come close to the depth and ferocity of the recording I was trying to emulate (Sir Colin Davis and the LSO)
Getting relative volume right amongst articulations, sections and the whole ensemble is one of the most important, but time-consuming and challenging things to do
EQ and relative volume are probably more important for establishing a sense of distance than reverb
Reverb is almost an afterthought when #3 and MIDI programming are right
Good orchestration covers a multitude of sins
Learning the libraries you have is more important than buying another library
I finally understand some of Piet's comments about sampled vs live orchestra and how samples cannot come close to the real thing
I will probably stick with a small template like this from now on. I would rather focus on a writing and orchestration anyway.

Good question,
Marc


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## Jdiggity1 (Nov 1, 2016)

Good answer.
And good mockup


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Nov 1, 2016)

Sounds good and I can hear you put a lot of work into that one. I did mockup around 30 classical pieces this year, so I can hail your points 1-7 so much.. Thanks for sharing.


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## marclawsonmusic (Nov 1, 2016)

Thanks, guys


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## marclawsonmusic (Nov 2, 2016)

One final bump. I appreciate any constructive feedback. Thanks.


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## The Darris (Nov 2, 2016)

Way too fast!! 

Balance at the beginning is too clean for me. The timpani is never very prominent in the the recordings I'm familiar with. It acts more to fill out the low end. You get the rhythm but you also get a more washy sound and less percussive. The Tam Tam hit at the beginning should sing a little more. I can't even hear the bass oboe when it comes in which is a great color at that moment. I'm assuming you don't have one and are just leaving it out. The stopped horns and trumpets are also way too prominent when they come in. 

I don't really want to detail everything I noticed but I would highly encourage you to listen to some famous recordings and pay close attention to the balance. Holst was a great orchestrator, in my opinion, and he understood the natural dynamic balance of the orchestra. You are certainly following the dynamic markings but you have to use your ears in context to the orchestra. 

Best,

C


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## Thor (Nov 3, 2016)

I think the lessons you listed are really useful, and I agree with all of what you said except #4. I feel reverb is an art unto itself (an art I'm not particularly great at). When I A/B this to an orchestra recording, I hear more of a blend within the ensemble. Really excellent use of reverb/mix buss compression can help get you closer to that, I think. That's just my barely-educated opinion.


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## marclawsonmusic (Nov 3, 2016)

The Darris said:


> Way too fast!!
> 
> Balance at the beginning is too clean for me. The timpani is never very prominent in the the recordings I'm familiar with. It acts more to fill out the low end. You get the rhythm but you also get a more washy sound and less percussive. The Tam Tam hit at the beginning should sing a little more. I can't even hear the bass oboe when it comes in which is a great color at that moment. I'm assuming you don't have one and are just leaving it out. The stopped horns and trumpets are also way too prominent when they come in.
> 
> ...



Hi Chris, thanks for your feedback.

I modeled my mockup after this recording - Sir Colin Davis and the LSO. It is indeed fast and the timpani do seem very prominent / close as they get louder.



I started with the score but did my best to match this recording with my ears.
Marc


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## marclawsonmusic (Nov 3, 2016)

Thor said:


> I think the lessons you listed are really useful, and I agree with all of what you said except #4. I feel reverb is an art unto itself (an art I'm not particularly great at). When I A/B this to an orchestra recording, I hear more of a blend within the ensemble. Really excellent use of reverb/mix buss compression can help get you closer to that, I think. That's just my barely-educated opinion.



I don't disagree that reverb is its own art - one that I am not great at either... However, I have seen people (including myself) spend enormous amounts of time trying to find the perfect reverb or dial in this or that pre-delay setting - only to still have a shitty-sounding mockup. So, I tried to focus less on reverb and more on the MIDI programming in this case.

I will say that I feel there is no place for compression in a recording like this... so there is none in my mockup.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 3, 2016)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Yes, I learned a great deal going through this process. Some specifics:
> 
> No matter how many dynamic layers they have, samples will never sound as dynamic as real instruments. I couldn't even come close to the depth and ferocity of the recording I was trying to emulate (Sir Colin Davis and the LSO)
> Getting relative volume right amongst articulations, sections and the whole ensemble is one of the most important, but time-consuming and challenging things to do
> ...


Very mature observations Marc. I feel the same way about everything you've said here.


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## Svyato (Nov 4, 2016)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Yes, I learned a great deal going through this process. Some specifics:
> 
> No matter how many dynamic layers they have, samples will never sound as dynamic as real instruments. I couldn't even come close to the depth and ferocity of the recording I was trying to emulate (Sir Colin Davis and the LSO)
> Getting relative volume right amongst articulations, sections and the whole ensemble is one of the most important, but time-consuming and challenging things to do
> ...


Could you develop amore what do you intend by saying point 6 (Learning the libraries you have is more important than buying another library) ? Thanks


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## marclawsonmusic (Nov 4, 2016)

Svyato said:


> Could you develop amore what do you intend by saying point 6 (Learning the libraries you have is more important than buying another library) ? Thanks



Hi Svyato,

It is easy to think that another library will give you a better sound and make your music sound great, but I have found that this is not always the case.

Several years ago, I bought CineBrass and tried to use it... I didn't get a good result, so I decided to try another library. I got Hollywood Brass but I still didn't get a good result, so I tried another library. I got Sample Modeling and didn't get a good result, so I bought VSL, etc, etc.

I tried this with strings and woodwinds and percussion too. Now I am broke and still can't make good music. 

Then I heard various mockups on this forum with all these different libraries and they sounded great. So, I realized the problem was not the library, but how I was using it.

Since then, I am trying to spend time learning the libraries I already have rather than get excited and buy the next shiny thing. I have found that most of the high-end libraries can meet your needs if you just spend time getting to know them.

Hope this helps,
Marc


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## dtcomposer (Nov 4, 2016)

It's a good effort in my opinion. I'm not a mock-up expert by any means, but here are some of my thoughts for improvement:

This isn't too fast at all. But it could breathe a little bit more in a few key spots. You can probably massage things with the tempo track whenever it seems a bit too robotic. 
At the beginning I would like to hear the pitches more. It's very subtle, but I think the timp is too present. Really the main thing for me was the balance with the col legno stuff, harps and timp. You've gotta hear the harmonies. 
Some of the wind and brass parts seemed thin and underwhelming when they first entered, but were better near the end, probably because they were playing more loudly. More warmth and body there would be ideal. The other thing is the strings on each of the swells around one minute. After you hit those and the strings are sustaining, they sound kind of static. If you notice in the recording there is a very delicate diminuendo there, which adds life, and contrast.

All those tiny details add up, and there are probably more little details that you could find as well. Thanks for sharing this, it reminds me that I need to check all these types of things in my own music.


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## Svyato (Nov 5, 2016)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Hi Svyato,
> 
> It is easy to think that another library will give you a better sound and make your music sound great, but I have found that this is not always the case.
> 
> ...



Thanks  And how do you spend time learning your sample libraries? What are your tips for becoming kind an "expert" of a specific sample library?


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## marclawsonmusic (Nov 5, 2016)

dtcomposer said:


> It's a good effort in my opinion. I'm not a mock-up expert by any means, but here are some of my thoughts for improvement:
> 
> This isn't too fast at all. But it could breathe a little bit more in a few key spots. You can probably massage things with the tempo track whenever it seems a bit too robotic.
> At the beginning I would like to hear the pitches more. It's very subtle, but I think the timp is too present. Really the main thing for me was the balance with the col legno stuff, harps and timp. You've gotta hear the harmonies.
> ...



Great feedback, @dtcomposer. Thanks for listening and taking time to respond.


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## marclawsonmusic (Nov 5, 2016)

Svyato said:


> Thanks  And how do you spend time learning your sample libraries? What are your tips for becoming kind an "expert" of a specific sample library?



Doing a mockup of an existing piece like this Holst is a great way to learn the ins and outs (and limitations) of your libraries.


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## tack (Nov 5, 2016)

Not to detract from Marc's fine effort, but just as a point of comparison, have you seen Carles' attempt at this same piece?


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## marclawsonmusic (Nov 5, 2016)

tack said:


> Not to detract from Marc's fine effort, but just as a point of comparison, have you seen Carles' attempt at this same piece?


@Carles is a monster. I love his work. Awesome.


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## E.Heart (Nov 5, 2016)

tack said:


> Not to detract from Marc's fine effort, but just as a point of comparison, have you seen Carles' attempt at this same piece?





Good job indeed.


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