# Anyone else mixing in a bad room?



## Symfoniq (Jan 10, 2017)

I mix in a bad room. It's almost a perfect square, and the ceiling is very low in parts of the room. To make matters worse, due to it being a multi-use room, the only "good" location for my DAW and monitors is a corner (i.e. not "good" at all).

So I'm curious: Who else mixes in a bad room, and how do you work around your room's limitations?


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## wst3 (Jan 10, 2017)

Hi, my name is Bill and I mix is a bad room.

Work arounds?
1) stashing away cash to build the next "real" studio
2) whining a lot to my friends
3) TONS of listening to mixes in other spaces to see where I went wrong
4) not quite enough listening to reference mixes in my space
5) think about trying to mitigate the problems with treatments, then remember #1 above.

It isn't disastrous, I've worked in worse (see #2 above), but it can be frustrating when I'm working against a deadline.


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## maxime77 (Jan 10, 2017)

Either treat your room or use headphones (to complement your studio monitors).


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## karelpsota (Jan 10, 2017)

All my clients say they're "lost" when they come to a session.

To give you an idea, here's the response curve in my room with ADAM A7Xs:





Everything rolls off under 80 Hz and above 12K. I have two 9dB peaks around 120-200 Hz. A crucial dip at 1K. Some crappy "metallic" room reverb when I clap my hands. However, after 3 years in that setup, your ears kind of get used to it.

Here's a few low-budget tips:

*Move stuff* around your room - relocating a shelf or a screen can make a big difference in terms of reverb and resonance.
*Flip phase *on one channel to listen to the wide content exclusively. I use the "Utility" tool in Ableton. Its a cheap way to double-check stereo imaging.

Constantly *A/B* your tracks with pro releases. (Sometimes, not being in the same key as the ref can lead to difference resonances in your room, just know about it)
Use *headphones* for the sub. I found the Sennheisers HD 380 extremely precise in the low end. I can distinguish notes from rumble even down to 30 Hz.
Check your mix on a *second pair* *of cheap speakers*. I got the Auratones from Chillbot, great for midrange.
Also, you might want to consider the *Sonarworks Speaker Calibration* Software. It took me a while to get used to, but it corrected the uneven response I had. Imaging got better too. You can find the thread by Daniel James on the forum.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Jan 10, 2017)

Symfoniq said:


> I mix in a bad room. It's almost a perfect square, and the ceiling is very low in parts of the room. To make matters worse, due to it being a multi-use room, the only "good" location for my DAW and monitors is a corner (i.e. not "good" at all).
> 
> So I'm curious: Who else mixes in a bad room, and how do you work around your room's limitations?



Invest all the money you would spend for monitors in a (really) good pair of headphones... Beyer DT1990Pro, Sennheiser HD800 ... (this class)

Do your mixes (only) with them and check the mixes afterwards in the car, with the iPhone, with your Hi-Fi etc.
You also could use Analyzers which are able to show the energy-curve over the time. Compare your mix-curves with those of reference-curves of similar music to yours. The meaning is: Instead of monitors you can use a lot of helpers which can confirm that your mix is probably OK. 
Further: 
Keep in mind that stereo matters you often overdo with headphones. So do not spread stereo channels without checking it with a correlation meter. 
And finally: You also will have a great pleasure, to listen to all your favourite music with such quality headphonesas as well. Listening through such headphones can be an impressive exeperiene... (You also will have this experience with really good monitors).

If you mix exclusively classical music, played with (dry) samples, it is important to have monitors for adjusting the correct depth and position to each instrument in the virtual room. That's unfortunately not as good possible with headphones as it would be with monitors. But nowadays lots of people are using VSS, MIR and other helpers for just this process - so headphones ahoi!
Beat


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Jan 10, 2017)

Hi, my name is Gabriel, and I've been clean of mixing in bad rooms for 1102 days. 

Cans. 

Not the best solution but it's working for me. 3x3m room here and sold my hs80 for a beyerdynamic dt-880.


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## J-M (Jan 10, 2017)

My room is a cube made of concrete and I have no acoustic treatment. I mix on headphones+monitors and I use some reference tracks...And I always check my mixes on multiple systems.


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## Rodney Money (Jan 10, 2017)

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> Hi, my name is Gabriel, and I've been clean of mixing in bad rooms for 1102 days.
> 
> Cans.
> 
> Not the best solution but it's working for me. 3x3m room here and sold my hs80 for a beyerdynamic dt-880.


Congratulations! Your longest post ever.


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## TIM_STEVE_97 (Jan 10, 2017)

I would win the award for worst mix room setup..
Two noisy fans.. which if I turn off the room gets hot..
glass reflections and a square room..
But my workaround is mixing on headphones.
For my level its no problem.


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## Morodiene (Jan 10, 2017)

How does one go about assessing what needs to be done to treat a room? I have a pair of JBL LSR305's that I really like. 

I had the opportunity to do some mixing on them in another room over the holidays and as I listened to a previous mix I did in my usual space, it was obvious to my ears what was wrong. I can't mix in that other space except over the summers and a few weeks in Dec., so I really would like to treat my space here.

I've gotten some good advice on how to do some homemade bass traps and things like that, but is there a way to determine what is wrong with your room?


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## Quodlibet (Jan 10, 2017)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> Beyer DT1990Pro



Imo the Beyerdynamic DT-880 Pro is a good alternative.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Jan 10, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> Congratulations! Your longest post ever.



no, it is not, moneyhoney


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## Rodney Money (Jan 10, 2017)

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> no, it is not, moneyhoney


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## WindcryMusic (Jan 10, 2017)

(stands up)

Hi, my name is David, and I mix and master in a truly horrendous room that is small and almost square (about 11.5' by 12'), and which has windows in odd, asymmetrical locations. On, and it faces a main road, too, so traffic noise is a constant annoyance ... thank goodness my acoustic recording needs are limited. About the only good thing is that I was eventually able to situate my listening environment to face directly into a wall rather than into the corner (which is how I'd started).

I've treated the room to some degree (about as much as is practical) to improve it a bit, and recently have started using Sonarworks to help some more. Beyond that, I switch back and forth between nearfields and headphones regularly during mixing in order to try to hear everything that is going on, and A/B against commercial mixes like a fiend.



Morodiene said:


> How does one go about assessing what needs to be done to treat a room? I have a pair of JBL LSR305's that I really like.
> 
> I've gotten some good advice on how to do some homemade bass traps and things like that, but is there a way to determine what is wrong with your room?



I was ill-informed on those details (and still am to some degree), so I went to GIK Acoustics. They will have you send your room dimensions and layout to a guy who specializes in this, and he will then make recommendations. I recall that they do this for free as a pre-sales service, in fact.

Unfortunately, in my case I couldn't follow all of the recommendations (e.g., very impractical to suspend any panels from my ceiling). But at least I treated the front corners and first reflection points (and yes, I purchased panels from GIK ... the least I could do after getting the treatment advice), which helped some. I'd love to try building a homemade diffuser panel, but from what I understand those aren't a great idea for small spaces like mine.


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## Morodiene (Jan 10, 2017)

WindcryMusic said:


> I was ill-informed on those details (and still am to some degree), so I went to GIK Acoustics. They will have you send your room dimensions and layout to a guy who specializes in this, and he will then make recommendations. I recall that they do this for free as a pre-sales service, in fact.
> 
> Unfortunately, in my case I couldn't follow all of the recommendations (e.g., very impractical to suspend any panels from my ceiling). But at least I treated the front corners and first reflection points (and yes, I purchased panels from GIK ... the least I could do after getting the treatment advice), which helped some. I'd love to try building a homemade diffuser panel, but from what I understand those aren't a great idea for small spaces like mine.



That's very nice of them...what did you panels cost if I may ask? More than likely hubby will want to do the DIY thing - he's handy so they should work. Since this is a dedicated space, I should be able to put up panels on the walls and ceiling no problem.

The window is single pane, and someday we will replace for energy efficiency and sound reduction in general. Not a huge amount of street noise, but there is some. I have wood flooring, but an area rug covering most of it - suppose I should get another to cover as much as possible.

Another issue is hollow-core doors, both entering the room and on the closet (bi-folds). Not sure what could be done about the closet doors though, except replace with solid core ones - if that would make a difference.

Entrance (west wall), South wall closet, East & North wall


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## WindcryMusic (Jan 10, 2017)

Morodiene said:


> That's very nice of them...what did you panels cost if I may ask? More than likely hubby will want to do the DIY thing - he's handy so they should work.



I seem to recall that my total cost for 4x TriTraps and 2x 244 broadband absorbers was around $750.

It's certainly convenient if your guy can build such things himself. If you use rock wool, I'd just caution that you don't want to be breathing that stuff, so it takes some care and effort. For me it was easier to go with GIK manufactured stuff since I already have lung problems even without the rock wool exposure, and because I once did $150 in damage to one of my vehicles while attempting (and failing, BTW) to replace a headlight. 

Nice chair, BTW.


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## Morodiene (Jan 10, 2017)

WindcryMusic said:


> I seem to recall that my total cost for 4x TriTraps and 2x 244 broadband absorbers was around $750.
> 
> It's certainly convenient if your guy can build such things himself. If you use rock wool, I'd just caution that you don't want to be breathing that stuff, so it takes some care and effort. For me it was easier to go with GIK manufactured stuff since I already have lung problems even without the rock wool exposure, and because I once did $150 in damage to one of my vehicles while attempting (and failing, BTW) to replace a headlight.
> 
> Nice chair, BTW.


Ya, no way we can afford $750 at this point, but I feel I really should do something. Thanks for the warning about rock wool: I'm a singer so my lungs are very important to me!


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## SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. (Jan 10, 2017)

Morodiene said:


> Ya, no way we can afford $750 at this point, but I feel I really should do something. Thanks for the warning about rock wool: I'm a singer so my lungs are very important to me!



Did you read this post by Daniel James? He used just the software in his Dad's study (brick walls, panels, etc.) and says that he got amazing results without any treatment. 
http://vi-control.net/community/threads/sonarworks-speaker-headphone-calibration-wow.58189/


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## ghostnote (Jan 10, 2017)

Learning to listen takes time. Thinking backwards can help:
http://www.soundonsound.com/people/porcupine-tree

Headphones seem like a good alternative. But honestly, even if you don't know it yet: You'll suffer from headphones when you're older. Keep the volume low and Invest in a good headamp if you have to use headphones.

@Morodiene: Treat your room. It makes a big difference: https://www.thomann.de/gb/eq_acoustics_classic_wedge_foam_tiles_grey.htm

Here's how:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/beginners-guide-acoustic-treatment

BTW I really like the mickey statue on your book shelf.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 10, 2017)

This is the basic approach to how I'd go about dealing with that corner situation. ASC's stuff isn't cheap, but you can apply the same principle even if you don't use tubes.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 10, 2017)

I'd put them above the speakers too.


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## wst3 (Jan 10, 2017)

Art Noxon is a genius! Tube Traps CAN work well, but I would caution folks to spend a little time learning about acoustics, or a little money on a consultant before spending money on treatments.

There are lots of solutions, lots of ways to solve most problems, the trick is to do it in a manner that is cost effective and not terribly ugly!


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## Rex282 (Jan 10, 2017)

Symfoniq said:


> I mix in a bad room. It's almost a perfect square, and the ceiling is very low in parts of the room. To make matters worse, due to it being a multi-use room, the only "good" location for my DAW and monitors is a corner (i.e. not "good" at all).
> 
> So I'm curious: Who else mixes in a bad room, and how do you work around your room's limitations?


 My room is PERFECT..my mixes are bad..


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 10, 2017)

You could simulate an Attack Wall with two mattresses covered with acoustic cloth, for example.


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## Morodiene (Jan 11, 2017)

@SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. and @Maxime Luft Thanks for that! Looks like a great solution, and with the free trial I could at the very least see what problems specifically my room has. 

@Michael Chrostek Thanks for those articles! Since I have potentially two mixing spaces depending on where I'm living at the time, the software may be the better route in the long run. Oh, and the Mickey trophy was given to me and my students when they performed at Disney World.


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## Joram (Jan 12, 2017)

2 really cheap and quick problem solvers for horrible music rooms
- get some cardboard boxes, fill m with old clothes and stack m in a corner. You got yourself a bass trap! Get and stack some more cardboard boxes in another corner when needed.
- get some second hand sleeping bags or a couple of blankets and 2 clothing racks. Wash the sleeping bags or blankets well. Park the racks with the sleeping bags or blankets next to the side walls so that direct reflections from your monitors are somewhat absorbed.


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## SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. (Jan 12, 2017)

Morodiene said:


> @SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. and @Maxime Luft Thanks for that! Looks like a great solution, and with the free trial I could at the very least see what problems specifically my room has.



I think with the free trial you still have to buy the calibrated microphone, but the software is the expensive part of the package.


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## Morodiene (Jan 12, 2017)

Joram said:


> 2 really cheap and quick problem solvers for horrible music rooms
> - get some cardboard boxes, fill m with old clothes and stack m in a corner. You got yourself a bass trap! Get and stack some more cardboard boxes in another corner when needed.
> - get some second hand sleeping bags or a couple of blankets and 2 clothing racks. Wash the sleeping bags or blankets well. Park the racks with the sleeping bags or blankets next to the side walls so that direct reflections from your monitors are somewhat absorbed.


Sounds like a great idea, but I would probably go insane with all that clutter - I'd never get any composing done LOL!


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## Morodiene (Jan 12, 2017)

SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. said:


> I think with the free trial you still have to buy the calibrated microphone, but the software is the expensive part of the package.


I think there is an option to use your own mic (as long as it has a flat frequency response).


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## John Busby (Jan 12, 2017)

Rex282 said:


> My room is PERFECT..my mixes are bad..


my mixes are terrible too but i blame my room


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## InLight-Tone (Jan 12, 2017)

How about an RV, that's about as bad as it gets but I love being a nomad and working from wherever?!?


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## Morodiene (Jan 12, 2017)

InLight-Tone said:


> How about an RV, that's about as bad as it gets but I love being a nomad and working from wherever?!?


Seriously?? Hubby and I are planning on buying one in the coming months and setting it up so we can work remotely as we travel around. Is that what you do? I guess headphones would be the best option in this case.


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## InLight-Tone (Jan 12, 2017)

Morodiene said:


> Seriously?? Hubby and I are planning on buying one in the coming months and setting it up so we can work remotely as we travel around. Is that what you do? I guess headphones would be the best option in this case.


I am totally serious, wouldn't trade this lifestyle for anything. I mainly do library music and we have websites and other online income sources. I use headphones but have a full speaker system, 88 key keyboard and all the rest, it travels nicely. We plan to upgrade later this year to a fifth wheel toy hauler and covert thew garage into a proper nomadic studio...


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## Morodiene (Jan 12, 2017)

InLight-Tone said:


> I am totally serious, wouldn't trade this lifestyle for anything. I mainly do library music and we have websites and other online income sources. I use headphones but have a full speaker system, 88 key keyboard and all the rest, it travels nicely. We plan to upgrade later this year to a fifth wheel toy hauler and covert thew garage into a proper nomadic studio...


Would you be able to upload some pics of your setup? I'm really curious to see what you've been able to do. We are planning to still have our home base, but it would be cool to be able to pick up and go whenever we wanted to :D


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## InLight-Tone (Jan 12, 2017)

This is a bit dark but here you go. I basically took out the dinette and built my own desk. It's embarrassingly




simple but it works. Like I said, when we get the toy hauler I'll be able to have more but for now...When Daniel James was in Japan, he had a really simple funky setup and was still managing to crank out paying product...


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## Morodiene (Jan 12, 2017)

InLight-Tone said:


> This is a bit dark but here you go. I basically took out the dinette and built my own desk. It's embarrassingly
> 
> 
> 
> simple but it works. Like I said, when we get the toy hauler I'll be able to have more but for now...When Daniel James was in Japan, he had a really simple funky setup and was still managing to crank out paying product...


Pretty cool! I think I'd have to take my full sized DP though since I'd need to be able to practice piano as well, so I'm guessing I'll need to have it on a tray that can slide under the counter, but then still have it at a decent playing height.

Is stuff pretty battened down, or do you have to put any of it away when driving?


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## InLight-Tone (Jan 12, 2017)

Morodiene said:


> Pretty cool! I think I'd have to take my full sized DP though since I'd need to be able to practice piano as well, so I'm guessing I'll need to have it on a tray that can slide under the counter, but then still have it at a decent playing height.
> 
> Is stuff pretty battened down, or do you have to put any of it away when driving?


It's actually pretty stable, I just lower the monitor to the table, nothing is really fastened down at all and it rides fine. We move about every 3 weeks following the warmth North to South with the seasons and I just straighten it up a bit after we tow, fire up the Verizon Hotspot and we're back in business. It's easier than we thought really...


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## jcrosby (Jan 12, 2017)

Morodiene said:


> That's very nice of them...what did you panels cost if I may ask? More than likely hubby will want to do the DIY thing - he's handy so they should work. Since this is a dedicated space, I should be able to put up panels on the walls and ceiling no problem.
> 
> The window is single pane, and someday we will replace for energy efficiency and sound reduction in general. Not a huge amount of street noise, but there is some. I have wood flooring, but an area rug covering most of it - suppose I should get another to cover as much as possible.
> 
> ...



It looks like you're mixing off center.

If that's correct the first thing you should do is center your desk/monitors and move them at least 18 inches from the wall behind them.

Mixing off center creates a skewed stereo image and being too close to the wall (and corner in your case as well) amplifies low frequencies making the low end cluttered and hard to judge... (Low end builds up in corners, and will also build up when that close to a rear wall...) ... Mix centered and as far away from the wall as you can, and make sure your listening position forms an equilateral triangle with your monitors..

It's also generally bad to mix from the center of the room. (For example if by moving your table away from the rear wall landed you near the center of the room.) Cancellations are often strongest at or near the center of most rooms...

those few things should make a noticeable difference... And either way I'd become good friends with a pair of great headphones and look into one of the software solutions below.

For checking mixes in headphones I absolutely love this thing:
http://www.newaudiotechnology.com/en/products/spatial-sound-card/

If the room virtualization doesn't appeal to you another good solution is this:
https://112db.com/webstore/intl/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=2

It psychoacoustically creates a 60 degree image and helps give you the impression of a 'phantom center' which you don't experience in headphones, but do when monitoring... It basically helps reduce the tendency people have to over widen a mix when working in cans... (I also find it makes judging level relationships between instruments a little easier in headphones.)


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## g.c. (Jan 12, 2017)

karelpsota said:


> All my clients say they're "lost" when they come to a session.
> 
> To give you an idea, here's the response curve in my room with ADAM A7Xs:
> 
> ...


I too am looking at Sonarworks. Waves has a new Hd. Phn program just out, the " Waves NX-Virtual Room Software & Head Tracker".
Paul White reviews it in this months edition of "Sound On Sound" magazine, 1st review up. Waves has a few videos on it also. And I believe that Waves allows demos trials with all of their softwares. Also look at Izotopes Neutron, reviewed in the same issue. It isn't meant for this purpose but in that it gives you a confiqurable analysis of your project/mixes on playback, including defining visually the masking areas in it that can both hear and visualize, it could be an interesting back door into the bad room quandry.
g.c.


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## Morodiene (Jan 13, 2017)

jcrosby said:


> It looks like you're mixing off center.
> 
> If that's correct the first thing you should do is center your desk/monitors and move them at least 18 inches from the wall behind them.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for this info! I do believe I would end up in the center of the room if I moved further away from the wall even 12". So it sounds like using software to compensate for it would be the best solution. I own a pair of Sennheiser 598's that I got a good deal on last year. I really like them, but I know they are colored and cannot mix with them, so whether I use those or the LSR305's, I will need calibration software.


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## WindcryMusic (Jan 13, 2017)

Morodiene said:


> Thank you so much for this info! I do believe I would end up in the center of the room if I moved further away from the wall even 12". So it sounds like using software to compensate for it would be the best solution. I own a pair of Sennheiser 598's that I got a good deal on last year. I really like them, but I know they are colored and cannot mix with them, so whether I use those or the LSR305's, I will need calibration software.



Tonebooster MorphIt has a calibration preset for your Sennheisers, and you can download a demo thereof for free. It might be worth trying to see if it makes your headphones more usable for mixing. I know I find it useful with my Sony MDR7506 phones. And the plugin is dirt cheap, too.


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## Morodiene (Jan 13, 2017)

@WindcryMusic Thanks, I'll give that a go!


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## jcrosby (Jan 13, 2017)

Morodiene said:


> Thank you so much for this info! I do believe I would end up in the center of the room if I moved further away from the wall even 12". So it sounds like using software to compensate for it would be the best solution. I own a pair of Sennheiser 598's that I got a good deal on last year. I really like them, but I know they are colored and cannot mix with them, so whether I use those or the LSR305's, I will need calibration software.


You bet! And if you can't move that far back, any separation is better... I'd recommend giving your self enough space to hang absorbers right behind the speakers. 6 inches should plenty of space and absorbers will certainly do more good than harm...

Even if you do the bulk of mixing in headphones I'd still suggest using your speakers for the occasional check... The thing about headphones is we don't hear 180 degrees apart but headphones force us to hear that way... Without getting too nerdy we lose important binaural cues in headphones that speakers provide...

The easiest example is that our ears face forward, are open in front and "closed" on the back for a reason, that's how we determine where things are in space, and what creates the illusion of 3-d "soundstage" when monitoring...

Anyway hope some of that's useful and best of luck!


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## Joram (Jan 14, 2017)

Morodiene said:


> Sounds like a great idea, but I would probably go insane with all that clutter - I'd never get any composing done LOL!


But seriously, before you buy any official acoustic stuff, try this first. It tells you what you need before guessing at the _acoustics store_ and will safe you money.


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## JPQ (Jan 28, 2017)

I have bad room and i bet my next room is smaller and almost square.


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## JPQ (Feb 3, 2017)

i also think how in small room possible record acoustic sound sources without bad echo if i want soemone play someday for my music for example flute/violin/bass clarinet for example. instruments are random examples.


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