# Simpsons Composer Alf Clausen fired.



## will_m (Aug 31, 2017)

Proof that no one has job security in this industry.

http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/simpsons-composer-alf-clausen-fired-1202543183/amp/


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## ghostnote (Aug 31, 2017)

The last bit of quality leaves this series, which btw has stopped being funny more than 10 years ago. I whish him the best of luck, such a talented composer will hopefully get another big gig soon. I wonder why he didn't left earlier.


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## will_m (Aug 31, 2017)

ghostnote said:


> The last bit of quality leaves this series, which btw has stopped being funny more than 10 years ago. I whish him the best of luck, such a talented composer will hopefully get another big gig soon. I wonder why he didn't left earlier.



I've not seen it in years either, I can only think that this is a cost cutting exercise from Fox. I also remember thinking it strange when for the movie they went with another composer (Hans Zimmer).


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## dannymc (Aug 31, 2017)

will_m said:


> I've not seen it in years either, I can only think that this is a cost cutting exercise from Fox. I also remember thinking it strange when for the movie they went with another composer (Hans Zimmer).



really, did Hans Zimmer compose the music for the simpsons movie? 

i cant imagine what style they are now looking for. i mean its a family show with comical light hearted satire. the music thats currently being used fitted that subject matter perfectly imo. what the hell are they are after now. the dark knight style spiccato strings. or maybe they are after some hybrid rock guitars trailer music instead. this push back against traditional orchestra's is getting out of hand now 

Danny


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## rottoy (Aug 31, 2017)

Holy shit, this hit me like a lightning bolt. :(
I assume Fox have rationalized it as such; they have so much material that Clausen has written already throughout his LONG tenure on the show, that they can just recycle cues and themes and then sprinkle throughout the show wherever it is needed.

Poor Alf.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 31, 2017)

Not buying the reason. I think they just realised that doing all those episodes with a live orchestra is expensive.


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## rottoy (Aug 31, 2017)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Not buying the reason. I think they just realised that doing all those episodes with a live orchestra is expensive.


Definitely this. So are we going into an era where The Simpsons is scored with GPO 5?


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## will_m (Aug 31, 2017)

dannymc said:


> really, did Hans Zimmer compose the music for the simpsons movie?
> 
> i cant imagine what style they are now looking for. i mean its a family show with comical light hearted satire. the music thats currently being used fitted that subject matter perfectly imo. what the hell are they are after now. the dark knight style spiccato strings. or maybe they are after some hybrid rock guitars trailer music instead. this push back against traditional orchestra's is getting out of hand now
> 
> Danny



He did indeed.

I'd be surprised if they change the style, I think it will be more of a cost cutting thing but we'll have to see who the replacement is. Could be that Alf insisted on keeping the live orchestra and Fox didn't want to but what they choose to do next will likely be quite telling.

Also if there is one show on T.V that has made enough money to use live orchestra it's the Simpsons.


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## dannymc (Aug 31, 2017)

will_m said:


> He did indeed.
> 
> I'd be surprised if they change the style, I think it will be more of a cost cutting thing but we'll have to see who the replacement is. Could be that Alf insisted on keeping the live orchestra and Fox didn't want to but what they choose to do next will likely be quite telling.
> 
> Also if there is one show on T.V that has made enough money to use live orchestra it's the Simpsons.



i think the problem is you have alot of new young buck executives making the decisions who grew up on itunes and they are hearing what can now be achieved with VI samples these days in music libraries etc. they are the ones saying why do we need to be paying for live orchestras if this can be achieved with samples at a fraction of the cost. even if thats not true most of your average simpsons watcher wont be able to tell the difference.

the traditional composers who push back against this reality are ending up out of a job it seems.

Danny


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## robharvey (Aug 31, 2017)

dannymc said:


> the traditional composers who push back against this reality are ending up out of a job it seems.



Yep that's right. It is a shame but it's the truth that we can score blockbusters without walking into the studio.


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## patrick76 (Aug 31, 2017)

PATHETIC and a disgrace.


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## gsilbers (Aug 31, 2017)

sooo much passion. im sure he would be happy so many care about him.. but man.. he is going to be OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK like you wouldn't imagine.

he is 76. (retirement age) and he is in every music cue sheet for every episode for multiple cues per episodes for the past 27 years.

I don't think people realize what does that mean for a show like the Simpsons. the Simpsons is being shown around world in every country, several cities per country sometimes every day a couple times a day. Even from season 1-8 and its being shown over and over and over in markets like NYC,. just with the royalties from Europe he is rich. imagine from the US, now that fox made the cable deal and its shown non stop and syndicated.

And he has been working doing what he loves for so long. how many composers can say that? (besides like the 15 composer at remote control)

Maybe the way it was announced wasn't the prettiest in the tabloids. But being layoff /fired is pretty common in big studios specially now that streaming platforms are taking over and making their own productions and theatrical revenues is very very low.
And also we don't know what really happened or the real reason. And keep in mind he knows the producers, directors and writers for 27 years. 27 years knowing those people that are now big timers. of course money is not everything but im sure he can do a whole bunch of new work and shows and do other very cool things with his resume. hey Everyone knows that mr plow song...


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 31, 2017)

I hope he makes a big party and shows fox a double middle finger. Simpsons back then in 90s was great and I like it a lot. After they changed step by step their core of the great first creatives, the show went down imo. Especially after the 2000s. Simpsons is for many years already just a pathetic shadow of once it was. I hope Fox and their attending vultures will go bankcrupt one day so that the world is finally free of shitty ass greedy companies like them.


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## jononotbono (Aug 31, 2017)

gsilbers said:


> And also we don't know what really happened or the real reason.



Great post.


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## Desire Inspires (Aug 31, 2017)

So can I apply to be the new composer? I just bought some new sample libraries and I even have a MIDI keyboard now!


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## JPQ (Aug 31, 2017)

Its still funny. Word has many funny things even simpsons focused USA related things they also processed some others.


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## will_m (Aug 31, 2017)

gsilbers said:


> sooo much passion. im sure he would be happy so many care about him.. but man.. he is going to be OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK like you wouldn't imagine.



I don't think anyone is worried for his career or financial situation at all (for the reasons you mentioned). 

However it is interesting and maybe worrying if the reasons the article suggests for him getting fired are true. If the guy who did all the things you mentioned isn't considered a viable expense for a show like the Simpsons, it doesn't bode well for other shows.

What happens when other shows see that they can maybe do without live orchestra or a big name composer?

Of course this is still speculation but if Fox hires someone cheaper and does away with the live orchestra (keeping the same style) you have to wonder who's next right?


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## gsilbers (Aug 31, 2017)

will_m said:


> I don't think anyone is worried for his career or financial situation at all (for the reasons you mentioned).
> 
> However it is interesting and maybe worrying if the reasons the article suggests for him getting fired are true. If the guy who did all the things you mentioned isn't considered a viable expense for a show like the Simpsons, it doesn't bode well for other shows.
> 
> ...



so? its a business. not a government. they need to lower costs and maybe alf has pension and other benefits plus all the other expenses. who knows. And if the rating dip or if there are complaints then they bring back the orchestra or score some live instruments. if the main producer wants live orchestra they will do it if its in the budget and has enough pull. but not many TV shows do that anymore. actually.. I don't think there is many shows left where its only orchestra except family guy and American dad. maybe with getting rid of him and orchestras for that shows enables fox to pay for the other 60+shows they have and 60+ composers and musicians. again, who the F knows. I trry to focus on Alf having been a great composer. having made some of the most iconic music ever wll known around the world.
Also, what did you think was going to happen if WE ALL keep buying the best and most realistic sample libraries and post and post here on how to make them sound more and more real? and then what,? try to convince a producer that a real orchestra sounds better and spend 10+ more when the mockup+ 1 live instrument "works" for them and they keep getting composers who can deliver great sounding scores with a few live instruments. Im not sure who are trying to fool here or the passionate romanticism of keeping the orchestra alive and then buying spitfires libraries. and that tv shows and companies SHOULD have orchestras and music SHOULD sound a specific way. I sure would like to know that tv shows and movies all use orchestras and would like a whole bunch of other things but entertainment biz sometimes gets too much out of wack with passion for specific things. but I don't see anyone cry fowl for the thousands of people that have been laidoff by fox, warner, sony, universal in the past 2 years. for reasons even more petty. but hey, im not saying kill the orchestra, and we are all in the same page that they sound better than a mockup.. but as everthing else, its part of something bigger, and things change, and if you are the 1% of composers who is writing normally for big features with huge orchestras then kudos to you and hope it grows.


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## patrick76 (Aug 31, 2017)

gsilbers said:


> they need to lower costs and maybe alf has pension and other benefits plus all the other expenses


Right... lower costs. They "need" to do that. Fuck them. It is the typical corporate bullshit. It is NEVER low enough.

Funny, I work for a huge corporation and we had a big meeting one time where this asshole told us there was going to be a "reduction in force". He said it smugly and added, "the numbers aren't right, so, not a big deal... it's nothing personal." So, because we had a month and a half of slow business they got rid of several people. A few months later they needed the people they got rid of back, but, hahaha, not one of them would come back. This guy was later part of another "reduction in force" in some beautiful poetic justice.

The show really does suck now anyway. I hope Alf enjoys retirement or finds something else if that is what he wants. One thing we agree on is that Alf is a great composer.


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## windshore (Aug 31, 2017)

So I understand that someone we all know is replacing Alf - or maybe more accurately his team will replace Alf. It's kind of a classic Hollywood business move and most of you won't be surprised. Sorry that this kind of trend in the business has gone this direction again and again in recent years. (Sorry I feel it's not my place to say but I'm sure it'll be very public soon...)


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## gsilbers (Aug 31, 2017)

patrick76 said:


> Right... lower costs. They "need" to do that. Fuck them. It is the typical corporate bullshit. It is NEVER low enough.
> 
> Funny, I work for a huge corporation and we had a big meeting one time where this asshole told us there was going to be a "reduction in force". He said it smugly and added, "the numbers aren't right, so, not a big deal... it's nothing personal." So, because we had a month and a half of slow business they got rid of several people. A few months later they needed the people they got rid of back, but, hahaha, not one of them would come back. This guy was later part of another "reduction in force" in some beautiful poetic justice.
> 
> The show really does suck now anyway. I hope Alf enjoys retirement or finds something else if that is what he wants. One thing we agree on is that Alf is a great composer.



no comment here. I agree but that's the nature of free market place.. or otherwise be called socialist communist etc and live in an overreaching country. that free market place is what might broght us the show in 1st place. def not an easy topic and of course there is a middle ground but share holders are also investing heavily on these corporations etc etc. its like if they hired you to do a score for a movie but only can get union players but you don't get union compensation and you cant bargain so you only get very little payment for a lot of work. once you start putting caps on what poelpe can spend or not or what things should be fair.. it gets dicey.
but yeah there could be other fat cutting measures. they already animate in korea and im guessing that orville show wasn't cheap either. but maybe its just me but I kind outgrew that whole mentality of "They" vs "us" and that corporations suck and all of those idealist ways of my twenties. these type of capitalist topics have been going on for a long time and there are a ton of view points and pros and cons. fox employs tons of people worldwide and has thousands of vendors and each of those vendors have dozens of people. people who have to pay for mortgages, kids afterschool and so on. so those people have to rely on these corporations for jobs but at the same time those corporations need to be competitive in a global market. and if too many employees or don't get paid well or treated bad then they will go to the competition and talent runs away damaging the company. so its a fine balance of trying to cut $ and at the same time keeping everyone happy, shareholders and employees happy. so getting rid of alf, might be like a blow to composers.. it might save dozens of other jobs..... or... or... give all the money to seth mcfarlen and his orville show. who knows... again.. we don't know. but to reiterate so I don't sound like an evil corporate guy with not soul.. I do wish they kept alf and give him the change to reture when he wanted and I wish more shows used orchestras. hey.. maybe if instead of writing in random forums about how you "feel" we should google who is your congressman and start demanding better and more rules to keep more orchestras or live musicians in productions. OR something similar. or find better ways to make that view happen... cuz sharing in forums and social media is fine.. but doenst get you anything.


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## Richard Wilkinson (Aug 31, 2017)

From what I've heard, it's a cost decision not a stylistic one. And the person/team who won the gig did so by undercutting Alf. Could be wrong, of course but it wouldn't surprise me at all.

The follow up statement by the producers is a strange one too - Alf still 'part of the team' in some capacity. Whatever that means...


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## Zhao Shen (Aug 31, 2017)

They said they wanted to cut costs. Does that mean they're turning to samples? If that's the case, I pity the poor soul who's going to have to try and fill Clausen's shoes with pure VST...


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## tack (Aug 31, 2017)

What if they hired Andy Blaney? What would we say then?


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## patrick76 (Aug 31, 2017)

gsilbers said:


> no comment here. I agree but that's the nature of free market place.. or otherwise be called socialist communist etc and live in an overreaching country. that free market place is what might broght us the show in 1st place. def not an easy topic and of course there is a middle ground but share holders are also investing heavily on these corporations etc etc. its like if they hired you to do a score for a movie but only can get union



Hey, I hope my previous reply didn't come across as aggressive toward you, because it was just meant toward the situation. Apologies if it did.

Interestingly enough, as I get older I find myself liking a lot of these big companies less and less. Perhaps you were more idealistic in your twenties than I was


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## Aquatone (Aug 31, 2017)

There could be a less nefarious reason. Dell Hake, who recently passed away, was the orchestrator for many many years. Sometimes, a disturbance in a successful "team" can make folks more inclined to look for a new direction. BUT, that is purely speculation on my part. Got to hand it to the Simpsons producers for keeping the live orchestra for pretty much the whole run.


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## will_m (Aug 31, 2017)

gsilbers said:


> so? its a business. not a government. they need to lower costs and maybe alf has pension and other benefits plus all the other expenses. who knows. And if the rating dip or if there are complaints then they bring back the orchestra or score some live instruments. if the main producer wants live orchestra they will do it if its in the budget and has enough pull. but not many TV shows do that anymore. actually.. I don't think there is many shows left where its only orchestra except family guy and American dad. maybe with getting rid of him and orchestras for that shows enables fox to pay for the other 60+shows they have and 60+ composers and musicians. again, who the F knows. I trry to focus on Alf having been a great composer. having made some of the most iconic music ever wll known around the world.
> Also, what did you think was going to happen if WE ALL keep buying the best and most realistic sample libraries and post and post here on how to make them sound more and more real? and then what,? try to convince a producer that a real orchestra sounds better and spend 10+ more when the mockup+ 1 live instrument "works" for them and they keep getting composers who can deliver great sounding scores with a few live instruments. Im not sure who are trying to fool here or the passionate romanticism of keeping the orchestra alive and then buying spitfires libraries. and that tv shows and companies SHOULD have orchestras and music SHOULD sound a specific way. I sure would like to know that tv shows and movies all use orchestras and would like a whole bunch of other things but entertainment biz sometimes gets too much out of wack with passion for specific things. but I don't see anyone cry fowl for the thousands of people that have been laidoff by fox, warner, sony, universal in the past 2 years. for reasons even more petty. but hey, im not saying kill the orchestra, and we are all in the same page that they sound better than a mockup.. but as everthing else, its part of something bigger, and things change, and if you are the 1% of composers who is writing normally for big features with huge orchestras then kudos to you and hope it grows.



Honestly not sure what you're trying to say here, I'm not trying to "fool" anyone. I can own sample libraries and still like to see productions have live players. When there is no budget for live I use samples, when there is budget, its nice to use live, that's all I'm saying. 

My main point was that if a show like the Simpsons can't justify live orchestra then what chance do other shows have? I don't see why its "passionate romanticism" to want to keep the orchestra in a show that has it from the start. Its just a matter of quality. This is all speculation anyway though until they announce a replacement, maybe FOX do just want a change of style.


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## gsilbers (Aug 31, 2017)

patrick76 said:


> Hey, I hope my previous reply didn't come across as aggressive toward you, because it was just meant toward the situation. Apologies if it did.
> 
> Interestingly enough, as I get older I find myself liking a lot of these big companies less and less. Perhaps you were more idealistic in your twenties than I was



Lol no no. That was my initial thing. No arguments in what you said . I do agree it's just not an easy topic . I do think big companies nowadays have way too much power and I think it will get worst as the big tech companies take over and for example they could lobby congress to take away any sort of royalties rules and screw us. Yet they provide tons of new futuristic internet tech stuff. 
I Didn't want to come across as fisty.


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## gsilbers (Aug 31, 2017)

will_m said:


> Honestly not sure what you're trying to say here, I'm not trying to "fool" anyone. I can own sample libraries and still like to see productions have live players. When there is no budget for live I use samples, when there is budget, its nice to use live, that's all I'm saying.
> 
> My main point was that if a show like the Simpsons can't justify live orchestra then what chance do other shows have? I don't see why its "passionate romanticism" to want to keep the orchestra in a show that has it from the start. Its just a matter of quality. This is all speculation anyway though until they announce a replacement, maybe FOX do just want a change of style.



I actually DO want the same thing. Sadly it's a business and they made that decision.

The samples have been disrupting live orchestras for a while and even though we all mean well, we buy them and create good sounding music at the same time producers and studios figure out that its "good enough" at a much lower cost, and hopefully it doesn't spill over to movies since theatrical is doing very badly.
But even with cinesamples trying to get with the union and all that got the short hand as players don't want to sample as it obviously cuts its future jobs. And that's kind of what's at the heart of this. Technology disruptions. Because I could guess that technology desruptions is what's getting fox and other studios to cut down on orchestras and someone like alf as they see theatrical sales go down and their "clients" starting to make much better shows at lower costs.
Si no, I'm not blaming you or anyone just want to expand a little more about this. Everyone just wants to jump to the title topic and express the obvious opinion based on a few facts. Not that I know more or anything but if we are going to go with opinions im sure I'll try to expand on mine and try to open to more viewpoints and try not to the beat a dead horse thing and while at it maybe we can talk about this biz situation thing.
The samples vs live in tv has already been decided. Most if not all tv shows go with mostly samples and record some live instruments. It used to be that it sounded "synthetic" which I think was that ewql era. But after the Hollywood strings, cinesamples and spitfire it's not been talked a lot of creating a score that doesn't sound "synthetic" so I think we have been developing our chops and samples for such a long time now that I think most people here could rescore the first five episodes of the Simpsons with samples and no one would tell the difference.
So maybe the statement should be are we uncounciously fooling ourselves about this whole orchestra vs samples thing?
We fall in love being in front of a conductors podium in front of musicians and getting that rush and then seeing it sound great when mixed against picture when all along the average joe could have been emotionally moved by good midi programming? Kind of like what happened when MP3s came along ? Just random thoughts.. my god I do ramble and sound confrontational!
I do still think it's nice to keep a live orchestra in shows and help musicians as that helps culture overall. Not to mention sound better.


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## rgames (Aug 31, 2017)

gsilbers said:


> The samples have been disrupting live orchestras for a while


Are you sure? That certainly could be the case but I haven't seen anything that confirms the suspicion.

My hunch is that samples haven't replaced much - it seems like there are the same number of top-tier composers working film/TV with live musicians as there have been for the last 50 years or so. Actually I'd say there are slightly more nowadays.

What I think has happened is that there are a bunch of lower-tier productions making use of samples and VIs. They haven't replaced anything, those productions just didn't exist before. Think about it: how much film/TV is there nowadays compared to 50 years ago? A lot more, and that growth is where samples/VIs are being used. I don't think they're replacing what was already there.

But, as I said, I don't actually know. Just a hunch that is an alternate explanation.

Do we have any indication that whoever replaces Clausen will NOT use live musicians?

rgames


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## will_m (Sep 1, 2017)

rgames said:


> Do we have any indication that whoever replaces Clausen will NOT use live musicians?
> rgames



Just the speculation in the original article, based on some information about Fox looking to cut the shows budget.

There's a new press release from the producers stating that Alf will still have an ongoing role in the show (whatever that means) and that “We remain committed to the finest in music for the Simpsons, absolutely including orchestral".

Again not sure if that means orchestral in style or in relation to using live orchestra.


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## dannymc (Sep 1, 2017)

will_m said:


> Just the speculation in the original article, based on some information about Fox looking to cut the shows budget.
> 
> There's a new press release from the producers stating that Alf will still have an ongoing role in the show (whatever that means) and that “We remain committed to the finest in music for the Simpsons, absolutely including orchestral".
> 
> Again not sure if that means orchestral in style or in relation to using live orchestra.



who knows. anyway as someone said earlier, the simpsons stopped being funny about 10 years ago when they failed to continue to pay their best comedy writers well and they all left. they've been dumbing the show down ever since. the best thing they could do now is just wind the show up in the next couple of years and only re-run the classic episodes. "Mono-rail anyone" 

Danny


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## LamaRose (Sep 1, 2017)

Blatant discrimination against an Alien Life Form... hope he has enough bread to get back to his home planet.


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## Richard Wilkinson (Sep 1, 2017)

He said on twitter the 35 musicians who record the score every week have also been let go, so that makes me question whether they're even going to bother with live players going forward...


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## windshore (Sep 1, 2017)

Yes, there is concrete evidence that samples have replaced musicians. The number of full-time studio players in LA is down dramatically in the last 20 years. That's part of the reason the LA local sold their property in Hollywood and why the pension is close to bankrupt. The commercial studios that used to do live recordings for film and TV are not working that steadily and a large number have closed. It seems pretty obvious if you have been working in the industry the last 20 years.


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## rgames (Sep 1, 2017)

windshore said:


> Yes, there is concrete evidence that samples have replaced musicians. The number of full-time studio players in LA is down dramatically in the last 20 years. That's part of the reason the LA local sold their property in Hollywood and why the pension is close to bankrupt. The commercial studios that used to do live recordings for film and TV are not working that steadily and a large number have closed. It seems pretty obvious if you have been working in the industry the last 20 years.


That's just LA.

Seems like business elsewhere, especially in Europe, has really picked up. A lot of LA composers record in Europe, so that could explain the reduction in business in LA. They're still recording live, just not as much in LA.

rgames


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## windshore (Sep 1, 2017)

rgames said:


> That's just LA.
> 
> Seems like business elsewhere, especially in Europe, has really picked up. A lot of LA composers record in Europe, so that could explain the reduction in business in LA. They're still recording live, just not as much in LA.
> 
> rgames



Not Just LA. Perhaps the USA. The actual number of TV shows that use live players is way down overall. Many shows today have "all in" contracts that specifically forbid union work. The production schedule and music demands require orchestral-like sound tracks but don't provide time or budget to do it live. Most of us who have shows do it by ourselves - as in one man - making all the soundtrack for a series with only an occasional outside musician being hired. In the early 90's all cartoons for instance, were done with live players... something like 30-90 players each. Now outside of one (Family Guy, maybe there's another...) they are all done in the box. One composer might do 3 shows. That means one guy does what used to take over a hundred.

Film scores may in general use more musicians than TV but often even the best soundtracks include at least some sampled content. Trailer music now is so hyperbolic you would have a hard time competing if you just used real players... or your budget would be so out of line with what would be paid, you'd take a loss.


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## JohnG (Sep 1, 2017)

windshore said:


> there is concrete evidence that samples have replaced musicians. The number of full-time studio players in LA is down dramatically in the last 20 years



It's the union, not the samples.

It's a long story, but the musicians' union has relentlessly and vigorously fought rule changes that would keep live music in LA and the US generally. It's appalling. The union today is run on behalf of about 300 of the old guard, and to the devil with the rest.


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## rgames (Sep 1, 2017)

windshore said:


> In the early 90's all cartoons for instance, were done with live players... something like 30-90 players each. Now outside of one (Family Guy, maybe there's another...) they are all done in the box.


Yeah, but there were no video game soundtracks recorded with live players in the early 90s. Now there are a bunch. And the size of the video game market dwarfs the film market.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying there are plenty of alternate explanations where what you're saying is true while still allowing for the same amount of dependence (or more) on live players these days. Someone would have to go collect some data to say for sure.

I agree that it seems like LA has seen a significant reduction in dependence on live players. But the market as a whole might not have seen the same reduction. Maybe LA is the new Detroit: there aren't fewer cars on the road these days even though Detroit's contribution to automobile production is nothing like it was.

rgames


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## erica-grace (Sep 1, 2017)

tack said:


> What if they hired Andy Blaney? What would we say then?



Andy Blaney is one talented bloke. What he does with samples is brilliant. But there is NO WAY he would ever be able to pull off anywhere near the quality we have grown accustomed to hearing from him with TV deadline.

So, who is this "composer we all know?"


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 1, 2017)

Windshore wrote:



> The actual number of TV shows that use live players is way down overall



I can't name *any* other than this one, at least I can't think of any with orchestras. MIDI-plus-overdubs maybe.

A minor part of that is that analog synth scores are in vogue, but this has been going on for years.

Too bad, because live scoring sessions of any size were among the most thrilling events in existence.

John G.



> It's the union, not the samples



I don't know who's there now, but I do know is that Local 47 has a history of being a good ten years behind in their understanding of technology. That's from personal experience.


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## Gerd Kaeding (Sep 2, 2017)

Hey , why not raise your voice and make some noise for Alf Clausen , and sign & share this petition :


https://www.change.org/p/richard-sa...-simpson-s-composer-until-the-show-ends#share


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## JohnG (Sep 2, 2017)

A petition? That is goofy. Alf had one of the most spectacular runs in television history, creatively and, presumably, financially. While I am not pleased that he's no longer on the show (who would be? he was very funny and everyone says he's one of the nicest guys you could meet), it might be worth considering that just because something ends doesn't spoil the whole thing. 

I wonder what percentage of marriages last as long as Alf's tenure on that programme?

He may be a struggling artist at some level, as are we all, regardless of our financial situations. That said, if he has his writer's share from all those episodes, he and his progeny are in good shape for a long time. So, on that level at least, I'm not feeling too sorry for him.


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## Gerd Kaeding (Sep 2, 2017)

JohnG said:


> A petition? That is goofy.



Sure .
But it's kind of showing some love for Alf Clausen's work, just a nice gesture ( - _of which Alf Clausen will never be aware of , I suppose_ -) ... and it doesn't hurt anyone.


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## Desire Inspires (Sep 2, 2017)

My question is "how does Alf feel about this?"

He may not even care and may be ready to retire or move on to pet projects.


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## resound (Sep 2, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I can't name *any* other than this one, at least I can't think of any with orchestras. MIDI-plus-overdubs maybe.



Marvel's Agents of Shield records a live orchestra for every episode. So do Family Guy and American Dad. I think Once Upon a Time may as well. I doubt there are many more, sadly.


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## jonathanparham (Sep 2, 2017)

resound said:


> Marvel's Agents of Shield records a live orchestra for every episode. So do Family Guy and American Dad. I think Once Upon a Time may as well. I doubt there are many more, sadly.


Thought I heard an interview with Isham that "once Upon a Time" was all 'in the box'


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## resound (Sep 2, 2017)

jonathanparham said:


> Thought I heard an interview with Isham that "once Upon a Time" was all 'in the box'


He posted some videos on his Instagram when they were recording at The Bridge. It looks like a smaller orchestra so it's probably supplemented with samples.


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## jonathanparham (Sep 2, 2017)

resound said:


> He posted some videos on his Instagram when they were recording at The Bridge. It looks like a smaller orchestra so it's probably supplemented with samples.


Ahhh copy that.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 2, 2017)

> everyone says he's one of the nicest guys you could meet



Indeed, and far more humble than he deserves to be.


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## NoamL (Sep 2, 2017)

resound said:


> Marvel's Agents of Shield records a live orchestra for every episode. So do Family Guy and American Dad. I think Once Upon a Time may as well. I doubt there are many more, sadly.



Seth Macfarlane's new show The Orville will have live score by Bruce Broughton. So yeah Seth is one of the big heroes for TV staying live. To everything else posted on this thread, @windshore post on page 2 is sadly accurate.


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## Farkle (Sep 2, 2017)

NoamL said:


> Seth Macfarlane's new show The Orville will have live score by Bruce Broughton. So yeah Seth is one of the big heroes for TV staying live. To everything else posted on this thread, @windshore post on page 2 is sadly accurate.



What?? Bruce Broughton is back in action? This is *awesome* news!! Even more reasons to watch the premiere of Orville!

Mike


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## JJP (Sep 2, 2017)

JohnG said:


> It's the union, not the samples.
> 
> It's a long story, but the musicians' union has relentlessly and vigorously fought rule changes that would keep live music in LA and the US generally. It's appalling. The union today is run on behalf of about 300 of the old guard, and to the devil with the rest.



That's a common response that doesn't work as a summary. Sadly, it's also a "sounds logical" simplification that a few people in the business have been able to use to their advantage. (That's an even longer and truly seedy story.)

Part of the misunderstanding about the union's role comes from people publicly throwing out "simple" solutions who have little idea how things work in practice. I can speak to this personally because I decided to get involved with working to improve the situation so much that I now take part in union (AFM) negotiations with studios and networks. I guess this was an outgrowth of my activism to promote composer rights within PROs in early 2000s. I can also say that even though I’m a union member, I don’t think I’m part of that mythical 300. I’m too young for starters.

The real story is much more complex, so if you care enough to spend some time reading about this (I can't blame you if you don't want to spend the time), buckle up. I'll explain a small bit of what I know about the union. For the record, I am not a union official, I'm just a member. I don't speak for the AFM, I'm just sharing what I know as a result of my experience in the hopes that it will help everyone have a broader understanding.

If a person hasn't actually read the contracts and been a part of negotiations where multiple studios or networks literally sit in a room at the same table and try to hack out a deal, it's hard to imagine how union agreements are struck and how they work in practice. My first day at the table in a negotiation about five years ago was a shocking revelation. You see people on the internet and on panels who claim to know what’s going on saying “The studios want this.” Heck, I thought I understood it pretty well. Then you go into the negotiations and the studios and networks want something different — something those talking heads don’t understand or even know about.

One important thing to know is that everything in union negotiations is a compromise or a trade. ("We'll agree to this if you agree to that.") Both sides end up making difficult decisions about what is truly important to them to reach a deal because neither side ever gets everything they want. That's as it should be. Because of that need to come to a difficult agreement, the idea that the union walks in and forces a set of rules on the networks or studios is a complete myth.

The union is often fighting to hold the line on basic wages and conditions for recording musicians which are under more pressure from studios than ever before. One part of that struggle is because the studios see a wedge being driven through the scoring world between composers and recording musicians. They're happy to quietly fan those flames because it drives down pay on both sides of the wedge and allows them to keep more money. They can't do it overtly because it would be bad for their public images, but they are VERY aware of what's happening and are happy to have people say the right things to the right people to stoke the fire. _**Sad fact: Composer agents can sometimes benefit from fanning the flames as well. -- That's another long story.**_

Scoring in general is down in the USA. It may never return to where it was 30 years ago. The business has changed here and in other parts of the world. However people often don't understand the numbers that are put in front of them without some careful analysis. For example: There was a big hullabaloo a few years back about a sudden drop in scoring dollars in LA in one year. There was howling about runaway scoring and lots of blame being put on the union for this. In retrospect, it turned out that LA had lost The Tonight Show to New York City and seen the cutback of the Dancing With the Stars band at nearly the same time. That may seem like a ridiculously small change, but The Tonight Show was 5 days a week with an above-scale live band and guest artists, and DWTS was two days a week (3 hours of airtime or more) with a band of 20+ people plus lots of guest artists and their bands. DWTS also had tons of music and got lots replays, so there were a lot of wages coming from that show.

When those shows were removed from the equation, the drop for that year wasn't the sudden disaster it appeared. That huge chunk also had nothing to do with runaway scoring to avoid the union. That's not to say that scoring in LA and the USA is not having problems. It is. I’m not trying to play Pollyanna. However, the narrative isn't as simple as it's often hyped to be. There are a lot of complicated factors behind the numbers that don't make for great one-line Facebook and Twitter posts.

In the most recent years LA scoring overall, while lower, has been somewhat stable and has even seen gains in some areas. Part of that comes from some forward-thinking moves by the union. One example is the New Media contract which covers films and series made for Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, and other streaming services.

The rates of the New Media contract are currently negotiated separately for each project. There's a rough guideline for rates but they are not fixed. That's because of how fast that part of the industry is changing and how unique the different projects are. A typical contract that sets wages for a three-year period is eons in the fledgling streaming world, so the AFM understands the need to be nimble. As a result it's brought in several projects that have been a not insignificant source of wages. There is also an effort to inform more contractors about the specifics of the New Media contract so they can be informed when a producer inquires about scoring one of these shows.

There's also the forward-thinking campaign for California bill AB1300 to extend California film tax breaks to include scoring. Currently the money is allocated, but none of it is being used to benefit scoring. A component of the bill also would target lower-budget projects as a reflection of how important these are in the future landscape of film and TV. The union's Los Angles Local 47 has been behind this from the start. This was as a result of the push from musicians who want to make the cost for scoring in LA more competitive.

The importance of these tax breaks to studios was driven home to me by a production accountant who told me privately, “When our company is deciding how to do a project, we look at three things: tax breaks, tax breaks, and tax breaks.”

Another positive that’s more about image than wages: Remember a few years ago when composers around the LA scoring scene were howling that it was so bad for everyone's image that the Oscars orchestra was at Capitol Studios and not in the theater? Many in the composing community were blaming the union for letting this happen. The union was actually more concerned with making sure everyone was paid properly than where they were located. The orchestra has since moved back into the theater for the last couple of years. However beyond that, this year every musician in the orchestra received screen credit for the first time in history. Those credits were due to a push by a union official who realized the importance.

Now, the union is by no means perfect, far from it. It has had and still does have points where it has been very out of touch. Fortunately, the current administration is aware of that fact. Previous administrations haven't been as aware. The last several years has seen a huge focus on listening and understanding what the current members who work in different areas need and using that information to direct the actions of the union. That was how I got involved. The AFM wanted to hear from people actually making their livings doing this work. That said, there is a long way to go to make up for what was lost. Little of this is being done publicly, and many composers are completely unaware.

The union has some real problems. However, their roots are not always what people shout about on the internet. Don’t be too quick to assume the union has its head in the sand because that’s the narrative that’s being put out on the internet. Most of what really happens doesn’t happen in the public space, and most of those commenting only have a small part of the information. I’ve become involved with this, and even I have to go do some hard digging and talk to a lot of people to figure out what’s really happening most of the time. It’s a big, complex world and there are few simple answers.


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## JohnG (Sep 2, 2017)

JJP -- I live in hope, but I'll believe it when I see it. 

I have been producing scores for over 20 years, so I am actually familiar with the union -- way too familiar. I've talked myself blue in the face to union "leadership" and seen zero meaningful movement that responds to the realities of a global market. I place the blame squarely on their intransigence about accepting alternate pay formulae, unwillingness to respond to producers' needs, and downright foolishness for work leaving town. It's easier to work with the union in London than here.

If there's change in the wind, it isn't being publicised effectively. Would love to see it.


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## JJP (Sep 2, 2017)

As someone else mentioned, it’s also true that the pension fund is in a bad place right now. Part of that is because there are not as many contributions coming into the fund because there are less people doing union work. However, that alone wasn't enough to cause the current situation. A bigger problem is the issue of high payout multipliers, some mandated by the government, that were established during the boom of the early 2000s. At that time the market was inflated and pension funds were required to allocate more for payouts to pensioners. The regulations also didn’t account for the fact that retirees now live longer. This has hit several pension funds beyond the AFM.

The good news is that while the pension fund is far from out of the woods, things are showing signs of turning around. The AFM has taken action in recent negotiations to find creative ways to direct more revenue into the fund through unallocated contributions. This is money that supports the overall health of the pension fund because it's not marked to be paid back out to a particular person. It has actually caught the attention of other guilds who are now looking at whether they can use similar strategies to strengthen their own funds. It's too early to say the pension fund is fixed. That will take several years figure out, and there will be gains and losses during that time. My point is that is much more complicated than, "Scoring is down, so the fund is failing." Contributions from recording work are just one important facet of the problem.


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## dcoscina (Sep 3, 2017)

jonathanparham said:


> Thought I heard an interview with Isham that "once Upon a Time" was all 'in the box'


He uses orchestra on Once Upon a Time. I just interviewed him in June of this year so I can confirm that first hand.


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## AllanH (Sep 3, 2017)

The only unions these days that thrive are the public sector unions. On topic: I can see why the union struggles to keep retirement plans solvent with the incoming contributions eroding. I can also see why the studios don't think that's their problem to solve.


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## jonathanparham (Sep 3, 2017)

dcoscina said:


> He uses orchestra on Once Upon a Time. I just interviewed him in June of this year so I can confirm that first hand.


Thanks. Someone else corrected me as well. Clearly, I have dated information.


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## dgburns (Sep 3, 2017)

lot's of serious and insightful thoughts on this crazy industry. I pray for all those who need to eat, and those who rely on factors out of their control to work and move forward in life. 

I'd really like to lighten the mood a bit and add-

"It's a dog eat dog world, and we're all wearing milk bone underwear"


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## JJP (Sep 3, 2017)

To tie all this back in, I don't think the union was a significant factor in the decision to remove Clausen. It is sad that it will likely result in the loss of a number of good paying jobs for studio musicians. I went through a similar situation when they changed music directors and downsized on Dancing With the Stars a few years ago.


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## AllanH (Sep 3, 2017)

@JJP - thank you for taking the time to explain union issues, even though it's somewhat tangential to the original theme of the thread. Always interesting to learn about the business.


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## Replicant (Sep 3, 2017)

Desire Inspires said:


> My question is "how does Alf feel about this?"
> 
> He may not even care and may be ready to retire or move on to pet projects.



I understand job security and I'm sure the $ was pretty good.

But 27 years of weekly writing for the _same_ thing, which has been the least funny sitcom on TV for the last 17 years sounds like something I'd imagine one would be tasked with in hell, if there was one.


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## bc3po (Sep 4, 2017)

resound said:


> Marvel's Agents of Shield records a live orchestra for every episode. So do Family Guy and American Dad. I think Once Upon a Time may as well. I doubt there are many more, sadly.


We recorded orchestra on Person of Interest before the series concluded a few years back. It was a "Bad Robot" production which usually always tries to employ live orchestra.


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## Luke W (Sep 4, 2017)

JohnG said:


> It's the union, not the samples.
> 
> It's a long story, but the musicians' union has relentlessly and vigorously fought rule changes that would keep live music in LA and the US generally. It's appalling. The union today is run on behalf of about 300 of the old guard, and to the devil with the rest.



Nashville has seen a significant uptick in scores for TV, games and even some feature films in the last 3-4 years. Tennessee is a right-to-work state, so everyone's free to play non-union gigs as they like. Lots of LA composers flying out to record here. The word is that the union in LA has made it too cost-prohibitive to record there. I'm not a player - this is just what I've heard from friends who've been getting that work.


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## JJP (Sep 4, 2017)

Luke W said:


> The word is that the union in LA has made it too cost-prohibitive to record there. I'm not a player - this is just what I've heard from friends who've been getting that work.



The union rates in LA are the same as in Nashville. It's a national contract that covers the USA and Canada. It's union vs non-union, not one city over another. It's just harder to find experienced musicians in LA who are willing to do do non-union work and take the pay cut and lose the benefits like healthcare.


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## resound (Sep 5, 2017)

To add on to what Jason said, in LA if you are a union member (not Beck status/ficore) then you can also be fined for taking a non-union gig. That's another reason it may be more difficult to find players for non-union gigs, but they are out there.


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## JJP (Sep 5, 2017)

resound said:


> To add on to what Jason said, in LA if you are a union member (not Beck status/ficore) then you can also be fined for taking a non-union gig. That's another reason it may be more difficult to find players for non-union gigs, but they are out there.



You can also be fined in Nashville.

To be technically correct, if you claim Beck / financial core status you are resigning your union membership. This is often incorrectly explained as some different flavor of union membership.

Non-union workers can be found everywhere. Traditionally in LA, the non-union studio gigs were left to musicians who were having a harder time. Usually most of the regularly working studio musicians don't work them. A few higher-level studio musicians who tried going fi-core got heat from their colleagues because they were seen as both undermining the quality and pay of work in town and simply being greedy.

The argument was, "You're doing the good union work and aren't in financial difficulty, but now you're going to try to take the non-union jobs from people who really need them?" I know of two first-chair musicians who went fi-core but then came back to the union. It didn't turn out to be what they expected.


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## Luke W (Sep 6, 2017)

JJP said:


> You can also be fined in Nashville.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Tennessee's "right to work" laws prohibit that? I admittedly do not have a full understanding of the union/non-union thing. But I thought union members could take non-union gigs if they choose without fines from the union. Is that not so?


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## Publius (Sep 6, 2017)

I don't know the industry, but I am curious--can the composer job be outsourced to another country? Is that a risk to LA composers? I recall in the 1960s, 3M would fly people to soviet bloc countries to record local orchestras for muzak in a non-union environment.

Looking at the credits for the simpsons, a lot of the names look like they may be people from a different country--I had always presumed that a lot of the artwork was being done overseas.

Off topic, maybe, but I can't believe that the simpsons has very many viewers anymore, so I wonder if their revenues are dropping.

Also, can the producers just use music already recorded for the show? I had the impression there used to be a union rule where tv soundtracks had to be re-recorded after 5 years or something like that. Again, my knowledge is very minimal here, but I am curious.


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## Publius (Sep 6, 2017)

I saw a thing on the music of Seinfeld. It was just one guy--I think based in New York. He had a keyboard loaded up with all sorts of samples, including the pop-bass sound, and just watched the show and hit the different keys as appropriate for the plot--just using one finger. I recall that a lot of the noises weren't musical instrument sounds, strictly speaking.


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## JJP (Sep 6, 2017)

Publius said:


> I don't know the industry, but I am curious--can the composer job be outsourced to another country? Is that a risk to LA composers?



This can be done. There are no conditions limiting who can compose. Composers have no union or guild and therefore no collective agreements with producers.



Publius said:


> Also, can the producers just use music already recorded for the show? I had the impression there used to be a union rule where tv soundtracks had to be re-recorded after 5 years or something like that. Again, my knowledge is very minimal here, but I am curious.



Since the Simpsons music was recorded on an AFM union contract, it can be re-used within the same season of the series for which it was recorded without additional payment . For example, music recorded for an episode within season 3 can be re-used elsewhere in season 3. It can also be used for promotion of the show and audience testing.

The music can be used elsewhere, but the union and producers have agreed that the production must pay the musicians again. Since the production has to pay and is already recording other new music, they usually record new music or re-record the old chart which gives the opportunity to make any changes, if desired.


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## JohnG (Sep 6, 2017)

Hi JJP -- I think it's great you are explaining your point of view.

The union has made it impossible for me to record in Los Angeles for most of my jobs. I used to be a member and it was great, so I'm not happy with this situation. I would loooove to have a contract in Los Angeles that accommodates the realities composers face, as there is in London. It's much more expensive there, but it works with what the producers demand and, generally, need to do business.

While I do cash dates sometimes in Los Angeles, I've also recorded in Nashville and it's very good there. 

And one more point -- when I hire players non-union I pay them more than they would make, even including the benefits, at a regular session for all but "A" studio pictures. I respect them; I'm also amazed today at some of the players willing to do cash jobs. Would never have touched them 10 years ago.


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## JJP (Sep 6, 2017)

Luke W said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Tennessee's "right to work" laws prohibit that? I admittedly do not have a full understanding of the union/non-union thing. But I thought union members could take non-union gigs if they choose without fines from the union. Is that not so?



I don't know the specifics of Tennessee's right to work law. However, I don't believe anything prevents the union from penalizing or expelling members if they engage in activity to undermine the union or negotiations. I don't know all the ins and outs of the law, though.

Usually right to work laws state that you don't have to be part of a union in order to work a particular job. In other words an employer can't say, "You have to join the union before we can hire you." That weakens the ability of any workers to collectively make an agreement with an employer. The employer can make the agreement with the workers, but then seek other workers with different terms outside of the deal.


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## JJP (Sep 6, 2017)

JohnG said:


> The union has made it impossible for me to record in Los Angeles for most of my jobs. I used to be a member and it was great, so I'm not happy with this situation. I would loooove to have a contract in Los Angeles that accommodates the realities composers face, as there is in London. It's much more expensive there, but it works with what the producers demand and, generally, need to do business.



I don't know specifics of your difficulties, but do be aware that any changes to the scoring agreements must be done at a national level. They also must come out of negotiations between the producers and AFM. That's a long, complicated discussion best handled elsewhere. (Perhaps over a drink? )

In a nutshell: No union act unilaterally in situations where they have an agreement in place with employers. When there is an agreement in place, the union cannot change the terms without first getting an agreement on the new terms from all the employers who are signatory to the current agreement. Those new terms would then apply to all the signatories of that agreement. The union also cannot make an agreement with a non-signatory employer that has terms more favorable than the agreement which they have collectively bargained with the industry as a whole.


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