# Issues with Previous composer and individuality



## Chris D (Feb 11, 2017)

Hey guys, 

Was considering not posting this but I'm tearing my hair out and need to see what others think.

Started on an independant film recently. Long story short the director had a freind write the cues for the first section of the film but they couldn't continue due to full time employment, so in steps me more than willing to take over as I've just started doing this full time.

They were happy with what the previous composer had done, but also said they were open to my ideas and wanted me to start from the beginning giving me the reins to write it instinctively. I produced something that I was really happy with (which doesn't often happen), and felt unique and was excited to hear their opinion. 

I got an email saying it was beautiful but didn't fit the aesthetic of the film and was not what they are looking for, which is fine, I'm happy to receive critisism and I'm definitely used to it. However they have now asked me to rewrite, note for note the original composers ideas for the first section of the film, and then build on those ideas because they are attached to it and they feel it is important to "keep your ideas within the framework of the pre-established soundtrack". They also mentioned that by me re-writing it, the music will flow better because of my better "Mastering". 

I've started rewriting the cues now, and it feels quite pointless due to me having different samples, different experience and most importantly the fact that I am not them.

I know it's a job, and i'm grateful to be able to do this, but I don't feel like a film composer right now. I feel like a rip off, cliche, unoriginal nobody whos writing note for note to a temp.

Anyone able to advise or vent with me? Do I just get on with it or walk away with pride?

Cheers


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Feb 11, 2017)

Chris D said:


> I know it's a job, and i'm grateful to be able to do this, but I don't feel like a film composer right now. I feel like a rip off, cliche, unoriginal nobody whos writing note for note to a temp.



Isn't that the default job description of a film composer?


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## Chris D (Feb 11, 2017)

Like a good composer friend of mine said, "Welcome to the world of film composing"...


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## Heinigoldstein (Feb 11, 2017)

This happens a lot with provided temp tracks and it´s always a nightmare to me, even after all this years. The producer and/or director says "don´t worry about it, feel free to do something completely new". But in the end they are so used to it, that you always are pushed back to the stile of the temp track. That´s why I sometimes prefer the jobs where they say, we want it the way it´s in the demo. 

In your case, it´s annoying to exactly copy a whole part, but if there´s still enough music left to write and you will get credits and royalties for the project, it can be a challenge too. I kind of like to develop other peoples ideas further to be honest. It´s not less creative, it´s just another kind of creativity.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Feb 11, 2017)

I would try to take it as a good sport. They seem to like your ideas and appear confident that you are able to do their project justice. Why not try and take the existing ideas and make it cooler, prettier and just a tad better. If all goes well, it could turn out to be a great testimonial and something that puts you on the map as the guy that gets the job done. Which is what everybody wants.


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## Parsifal666 (Feb 11, 2017)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I would try to take it as a good sport. They seem to like your ideas and appear confident that you are able to do their project justice. Why not try and take the existing ideas and make it cooler, prettier and just a tad better. If all goes well, it could turn out to be a great testimonial and something that puts you on the map as the guy that gets the job done. Which is what everybody wants.



+1 there's a lot to be said for taking the high road...especially when it comes to working with other people.


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## KEnK (Feb 11, 2017)

_~I know it's a job, and i'm grateful to be able to do this, but I don't feel like a film composer right now. I feel like a rip off, cliche, unoriginal nobody whos writing note for note to a temp.
~Isn't that the default job description of a film composer?
~Like a good composer friend of mine said, "Welcome to the world of film composing"...
_
Temp Love- The bane of film scoring.
You have to decide if it's worth it to you.
Is there enough reason for you to continue w/ this project? (money? connections? experience?)
In my experience (and many others) this is a lose/lose situation.
You will never like what you're coming up with and neither will the director.
It's a genuine "suck" situation to be in.
The only benefit may very well be you get to practice plodding on, sucking up to fools,
and churning out crap you actually don't like at all.
I read recently that Elfman won't work w/ tempt scores- not even if it's his own music they temped.

Imo it's best if you get out- there will always be another independent film to do.

temp scores-  
is there a retching emoticon?

k


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## Heinigoldstein (Feb 11, 2017)

KEnK said:


> _~I know it's a job, and i'm grateful to be able to do this, but I don't feel like a film composer right now. I feel like a rip off, cliche, unoriginal nobody whos writing note for note to a temp.
> ~Isn't that the default job description of a film composer?
> ~Like a good composer friend of mine said, "Welcome to the world of film composing"...
> _
> ...


mmh...Elfman (and a lot others) wouldn´t....of course...but would they have refused it 30 years ago, when they started ? If you want to start making a living out of it, you have to start somewhere...


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## gregh (Feb 11, 2017)

If they had said at the outset that you were to base what you do off some existing material would you have done the film? You might just be disappointed your material is not being used - which is perfectly normal but that disappointment might be getting in the way of tackling an interesting project, albeit not the one you originally thought.


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## KEnK (Feb 11, 2017)

Heinigoldstein said:


> mmh...Elfman (and a lot others) wouldn´t....of course...but would they have refused it 30 years ago, when they started ? If you want to start making a living out of it, you have to start somewhere...


30 years ago temp scores weren't as prevalent as they are now.
It wasn't technically feasible to do it that way,
so you would watch the film w/ the director, maybe sit at a piano w/ them to exchange ideas.
Much more creativity in filmscoring then.
Now, largely because of temp scoring, filmscores are much more generic- cut & paste.

k


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## Heinigoldstein (Feb 11, 2017)

....but since it is prevalent now, you have to deal with it to be able to make a living out of it. Unless you´ve already joined the Valhalla of film composing. That´s what I meant. But maybe I´m wrong, I never worked in Hollywood and maybe that´s why


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## givemenoughrope (Feb 11, 2017)

Why not just tell them you'll do what you want but then just do what you want, or split the difference? Try to get some money out of them before they fire you. Or maybe just don't follow this advice...although it's probably what I would do. Life is too short.


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## Chris D (Feb 11, 2017)

KEnK said:


> _~I know it's a job, and i'm grateful to be able to do this, but I don't feel like a film composer right now. I feel like a rip off, cliche, unoriginal nobody whos writing note for note to a temp.
> ~Isn't that the default job description of a film composer?
> ~Like a good composer friend of mine said, "Welcome to the world of film composing"...
> _
> ...


I'd definitely choose elfmans path if I could afford to, after all my ties to this project are now purely financial. Before I had to copy someone else's music it was more about the excitement of doing something different to help the film stand out, maybe catch a member or two in the audience remembering it for being different/unsafe. Something that is seldom seen in filmmakers today. 

Now it is purely "you can be as creative as you want, but only inside this box". 

As far as I've heard, that doesn't change for many a matured composer. 

Either way I've chosen this path so best I get on with it. 

Cheers


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## KEnK (Feb 11, 2017)

Chris D said:


> "you can be as creative as you want, but only inside this box"



Kind a like the classic, "You're pretty for a fat girl".
Good luck

k


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## marclawsonmusic (Feb 11, 2017)

If you are taking someone else's music and scoring it to picture, can you actually claim to have written any original music? It seems this would be more of an 'Additional Music' credit, rather than an 'Original Music By' credit. Shouldn't the first guy get credited as the composer since he wrote the music?


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## mverta (Feb 12, 2017)

Being able to say, "Ah, well, guess this one's for the money," is a survival skill, and an important one. Being able to rationalize plagiarizing another composer's music is an extremely fucked-up skill to master, karma-wise, and I would strenuously recommend against it.

At the very least - at the barest minimum - you tell the directors you are in no way comfortable plagiarizing the previous composer's work, and if it's to be re-recorded or re-performed, you want the previous composer to know about it, and bless it. Then, and only then, do you agree. If they're really friends or whatever then this should be no problem; especially with the previous guy bailing on his friend in the middle of the gig.

Consider that this career road is a long one, with many bridges. Right now, you have two bridges - one belongs to a fellow composer and colleague, who has done you no wrong. The other belongs to a person who is fine asking you to plagiarize his own friend's work, and doesn't particularly value you personally.

Work with good people, work on good gigs. They're there, though you won't find either if you're always too busy working on shitty bill-paying gigs. It's a tricky balance to find, but it's doable. Remember: We don't get what we deserve in life; we get what we accept.

Go.


_Mike


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## Chris D (Feb 12, 2017)

mverta said:


> Being able to say, "Ah, well, guess this one's for the money," is a survival skill, and an important one. Being able to rationalize plagiarizing another composer's music is an extremely fucked-up skill to master, karma-wise, and I would strenuously recommend against it.
> 
> At the very least - at the barest minimum - you tell the directors you are in no way comfortable plagiarizing the previous composer's work, and if it's to be re-recorded or re-performed, you want the previous composer to know about it, and bless it. Then, and only then, do you agree. If they're really friends or whatever then this should be no problem; especially with the previous guy bailing on his friend in the middle of the gig.
> 
> Consider that this career road is a long one, with many bridges. Right now, you have two bridges - one belongs to a fellow composer and colleague, who has done you no wrong. The other belongs to a person who is fine asking you to plagiarize his own friend's work, and doesn't particularly value you personally.



This is interesting, as the directors have said the other composer (who happens to be their friend) has signed a contract that states I have freedom to re orchestrate their work. Initially I thought I'd have more freedom to write what I want, so I'll have to ask to look at the contract they signed so I don't get screwed over.

I'm upset enough they are asking me to rewrite someone else's music and now I have to think about being upset and sued! 

I'll need to ask them about credit, as they said I can write what I want (but within the framework) after I've adapted the previous cues. If I'm rewriting the same theme the other guys wrote surely I won't get the main credit. 

Lots of questions,

Thanks for the thoughts.


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## Markus S (Feb 12, 2017)

Well it goes without saying that the first composer is credited and still remains author of the music. You are hired to re-orchestrate and arrange his music. That is fine, if this is what the deal is. It seems normal to me that they don't want an incoherent score. If the payment is right, I can't see any problem there. If you want to do this or not, that is for you to decide.

However, yes, make sure you legally can use the other composers work to write your own with, that is a delicate situation. Arrangement is fine, original music is fine, using another composers themes for your own music has to be well defined legally.


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## Hannes_F (Feb 12, 2017)

... and if I were in your shoes I would contact the other composer about this as well. Who knows, maybe you'll hear a different viewpoint then.


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## Desire Inspires (Feb 17, 2017)

"I decided long ago, never to walk in anyone's shadow" - Whitney Houston


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## AlexRuger (Feb 17, 2017)

KEnK said:


> I read recently that Elfman won't work w/ tempt scores- not even if it's his own music they temped.



Guys, Danny deals with temp scores just like the rest of us. He's always been vocal about much he dislikes them, but he's not _above _them or anything.


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## KEnK (Feb 18, 2017)

Of course nothing on the internet is true-
but I read Elfman say, "He won't work with temp scores".
Just reporting the reportage.
and now, back to Trump...


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