# School me on flutes



## DimensionsTomorrow (May 8, 2021)

The only real instruments I play are guitar and bass, but I’ve recently had the crazy idea to learn to play the flute for home recording.

My questions are:

1) Is there a relatively cheap, but decent option out there? I would prefer Japanese brands since I’m in Japan. Is buying used recommended?

2) Has anyone had any success with learning on their own? I wouldn’t be looking to play classical stuff, more old-school funk/rock/jazz “groove” kind of lines. 

3) How loud are we talking? I live in a condo in Tokyo with pretty thick concrete walls, and can play a low-wattage guitar tube amp if I keep it at low volumes (old Fender Vibrochamp). Do you think it would be possible to practice at home or would I need to look for a practice space.

This might just be a crazy idea that I abandon, but I figured I’d ask to satisfy my curiosity.

Thanks!


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## d.healey (May 8, 2021)

1) Ebay, I got a decent flute for £20 a few years ago.

2) Yes.

3) The flute has a wide dynamic range, it also changes depending on which note range you're playing, I don't think the volume will be an issue for you.

I found this video helpful:


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## Rodney Money (May 8, 2021)

1. Find you a nice used student Yamaha and you are good to go. 
2. Yes with dedication. Try to find a Beginning book that has downloadable tracks so you can play along with the recordings such as a book like this: https://www.wwbw.com/KJOS-Tradition-Of-Excellence-Book-1-for-Flute-H75171-H75171000000000.wwbw
3. Yes


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## doctoremmet (May 8, 2021)

Cool idea! It can really help expand your sonic possibilities (great sample source!) as well as your way of thinking. Last year I bought a clarinet and boy is it hard (fun though!).


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## DimensionsTomorrow (May 8, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Cool idea! It can really help expand your sonic possibilities (great sample source!) as well as your way of thinking. Last year I bought a clarinet and boy is it hard (fun though!).


I love real instruments, but limited space and urban living make it difficult. That’s what sort of drove me to virtual instruments.

A flute ticks the boxes of compact and lower volume and I just love the sound on so many old recordings.


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## DimensionsTomorrow (May 8, 2021)

Rodney Money said:


> 1. Find you a nice used student Yamaha and you are good to go.
> 2. Yes with dedication. Try to find a Beginning book that has downloadable tracks so you can play along with the recordings such as a book like this: https://www.wwbw.com/KJOS-Tradition-Of-Excellence-Book-1-for-Flute-H75171-H75171000000000.wwbw
> 3. Yes


Is there a certain Yamaha model I should be looking for?


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## RonV (May 8, 2021)

Yamaha YFL-222 is a good student flute. I got one many years ago for around $400 (50% off) at a Sam Ash Memorial Weekend sale.


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## applegrovebard (May 8, 2021)

I'm a self-taught intermediate flute player. Yes student level/second hand Yamaha or other reputable brand fine. Lots of useful YT tutorials of course. Developing a good reliable embouchure is the most challenging bit (a regimen of long notes is usually recommended). Mellow, pretty quiet in lower octave, tends to be quite loud in higher register. To get a good, jazzy expression and phrasing will take work. Most sampled/modelled flute I've found pretty disappointing, so good to play the real thing. It's a beautiful instrument- Bach is great on it. I love playing Brazilian choro tunes- and jazz flute is one of the most delicious sounds in music, for me.


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## DimensionsTomorrow (May 8, 2021)

applegrovebard said:


> jazz flute is one of the most delicious sounds in music, for me.


I’m totally with you on that! I absolutely adore it. 

I see some used YFL211s and 311s. The 311s advertise having an E-mechanism. How important is that? The prices aren’t that different between the used models. Maybe $100 or so.


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## doctoremmet (May 8, 2021)

DimensionsTomorrow said:


> I love real instruments, but limited space and urban living make it difficult. That’s what sort of drove me to virtual instruments.
> 
> A flute ticks the boxes of compact and lower volume and I just love the sound on so many old recordings.


Real instruments are great. I live in a way smaller city (Groningen) but still one has to seriously consider the neighbours and appropriate noise levels  so I now play mainly in the box, and my real instruments are a Rhodes and a pair of acoustic guitar and bass. And the clarinet, which has taken me quite some time to even get noise out of it, let alone true notes hehe. So I doubt my neighbours love the latest addition


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## Rob (May 8, 2021)

Split E mechanism is for helping the emission of the E third octave, not really necessary... I graduated and played in orchestra without it


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## DimensionsTomorrow (May 8, 2021)

Rob said:


> Split E mechanism is for helping the emission of the E third octave, not really necessary... I graduated and played in orchestra without it


Great. So would you say the cheaper YFL211 would be the better choice for a beginner?


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## DimensionsTomorrow (May 8, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> I now play mainly in the box, and my real instruments are a Rhodes and a pair of acoustic guitar and bass.


Rhodes is the other instrument that I’m absolutely in love with. There are always pretty reasonably priced ones floating around Tokyo, but I don’t think I could convince my wife to give up the space, so Keyscape it is.


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## Rob (May 8, 2021)

DimensionsTomorrow said:


> Great. So would you say the cheaper YFL211 would be the better choice for a beginner?


It depends, yes the 211 is good enough for a beginner... but the 311 has a solid silver headjoint, and that adds to the tone and value of the instrument. Should you decide to eventually sell it, that could be a factor. But you can surely learn flute (up to a certain level) with the 211. A good price for a used 311 could be around 450€... 200€ less for the 211


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## DimensionsTomorrow (May 8, 2021)

Rob said:


> It depends, yes the 211 is good enough for a beginner... but the 311 has a solid silver headjoint, and that adds to the tone and value of the instrument. Should you decide to eventually sell it, that could be a factor. But you can surely learn flute (up to a certain level) with the 211. A good price for a used 311 could be around 450€... 200€ less for the 211


Thanks for all the info! Maybe the 311 is the way to go.


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## RonV (May 8, 2021)

Also, if it is a used instrument, ask about condition if you can. Woodwinds have key pads that wear and mechanisms that can be adjusted to prevent leaks. A seller may indicate whether the instrument has been checked and serviced recently.


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## DimensionsTomorrow (May 8, 2021)

RonV said:


> Also, if it is a used instrument, ask about condition if you can. Woodwinds have key pads that wear and mechanisms that can be adjusted to prevent leaks. A seller may indicate whether the instrument has been checked and serviced recently.


Thanks. I’m looking at the used ones from music shops here in Japan as the ones advertised have all been fully serviced and come with a warranty. They are available cheaper from some of the auction sites, but almost all of them say that they would need to be serviced.


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## Rodney Money (May 8, 2021)

DimensionsTomorrow said:


> Is there a certain Yamaha model I should be looking for?


Others beat me to it and gave you great advice.


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## DimensionsTomorrow (May 8, 2021)

Does anyone know if there is a major difference between the Yamaha 311 and 311 II? There are two used ones (at different shops) that are around the same price, both have had professional maintenance and are in good shape and both have the split E mechanism.

The 311 is advertised by the shop as being an older model (produced somewhere between 1979-1990), but was apparently produced at factory in Japan known for its quality. I’m tempted to go with that one if there is no big difference between the 311 and 311 II.


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## DimensionsTomorrow (May 9, 2021)

I guess they were both good. Because both were sold. Lol. 😂😞


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## Saxer (May 9, 2021)

Get a flute teacher at least for some beginner lessons. Otherwise you probably use much too much air and have less tone control. 

Some advices:

Don't raise the fingers up when you open a tone hole. Keep the fingers relaxed all the time. It's just a few millimeter movement.

"Smile" while playing. Lips should have some tension like a slightly stretched rubber band but relaxed in the center. The lips are more or less automatically opened by the air (like a whispered "P"). And yes, it looks stupid!

If you blow on a mirror or glass (or a mobile phone) from the edge the breath cloud should look like a candle flame. 

The amount of air is always controlled by the diaphragm, not by the lips. Same for vibrato.


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## Rob (May 9, 2021)

Saxer said:


> Get a flute teacher at least for some beginner lessons. Otherwise you probably use much too much air and have less tone control.
> 
> Some advices:
> 
> ...


As for the smile lips position, it's either that or the grim position, lips turned down, as advised by James Galway. Vibrato has probably origin in the larynx, more than diafragm... Galway teaching as well, but that can be a personal thing


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## DimensionsTomorrow (May 10, 2021)

Well, I found a used YFL-311 that kind of spoke to me. Thanks for all of the advice!


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## Loïc D (May 11, 2021)

DimensionsTomorrow said:


> I’m looking at the used ones from music shops here in Japan as the ones advertised have all been fully serviced and come with a warranty


Aaaah Japan and its incredible service.
Used gear for half the price and top quality, revised with guarantee.
Since you’re in Tokyo, if you don’t know the place already and love synths, there’s Five-G shop in Shibuya.
Incredible collection of vintage synths and modular in mint condition.

(sorry, can’t help you with the flute)


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## DimensionsTomorrow (May 11, 2021)

Loïc D said:


> Aaaah Japan and its incredible service.
> Used gear for half the price and top quality, revised with guarantee.
> Since you’re in Tokyo, if you don’t know the place already and love synths, there’s Five-G shop in Shibuya.
> Incredible collection of vintage synths and modular in mint condition.
> ...


Yeah, Five-G is pretty incredible. Honestly, so many good music shops. My office for the last nearly 15 years is walking distance to Ochanomizu, which is pretty much music shop Mecca. Incredibly dangerous. I’ve bought so much guitar gear over the years on lunch breaks.

I have some pretty sick music shops near my house as well. I snapped a picture of a display case of vintage Russian Big Muff pedals a few months back and ElectroHarmonix ended up putting it out on all of their social media. The stuff you see regularly here is incredible.

Here’s the photo:


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## Stephen Limbaugh (May 13, 2021)

It is a great instrument to learn, plus audiences LOVE jahzz flute.


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## Nimrod7 (May 13, 2021)

DimensionsTomorrow said:


> I love real instruments, but limited space and urban living make it difficult.


Nothing better getting the trumpet out of the window 6am every morning.


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## Tralen (May 13, 2021)

DimensionsTomorrow said:


> Well, I found a used YFL-311 that kind of spoke to me. Thanks for all of the advice!


That is a beautiful flute and will serve you a lifetime. I don't know if you bought it from a shop or from a user, but it is good to know if the cork is in good condition when you are starting. A dried or loose cork will affect your sound and you don't have the experience to know if it is your embouchure or if it is the flute at fault.

To get started, take a look at Jennifer Cluff's website.


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## DimensionsTomorrow (May 13, 2021)

Tralen said:


> That is a beautiful flute and will serve you a lifetime. I don't know if you bought it from a shop or from a user, but it is good to know if the cork is in good condition when you are starting. A dried or loose cork will affect your sound and you don't have the experience to know if it is your embouchure or if it is the flute at fault.
> 
> To get started, take a look at Jennifer Cluff's website.


Thanks very much! One of the reasons I chose this one is that it has been fully serviced and anything not in good condition has been replaced. Otherwise, I would probably be thinking “clearly this thing is defective” right now. Haha.

I’ll definitely check out that site! Thanks for that!


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## Gaffable (May 13, 2021)




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## DimensionsTomorrow (May 14, 2021)

For recording flute, do you have any favorite (inexpensive) mics?

I’m more a fan of jazz/funk style stuff, and I was surprised how much I liked the SM57 clip here.









Recording a flute


Today we'll see how to record a transverse flute.




en.audiofanzine.com





I don’t actually own an SM57 at the moment. I have a Sennheiser E906, but I really should have one since I play electric guitar as well. I’m planning on grabbing a little Zoom recorder to bring to the studio to record myself and will probably end up picking up an SM57 before too long as well (unless the E906 exceeds my expectations).


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## Tralen (May 14, 2021)

I would prefer a condenser. I never tried the 57, but the SM58 reduces a lot of the "air" and overblown texture you get from the flute. They are the same mic except for the ball grill.

Also, the flute makes any problems with room acoustics much more evident, but they are in a frequency range that is easier to treat.


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## DimensionsTomorrow (May 14, 2021)

Tralen said:


> I would prefer a condenser. I never tried the 57, but the SM58 reduces a lot of the "air" and overblown texture you get from the flute. They are the same mic except for the ball grill.
> 
> Also, the flute makes any problems with room acoustics much more evident, but they are in a frequency range that is easier to treat.


Thanks. I’ll definitely consider a condenser (or ribbon) as well. Here is another example of the SM57 on a wooden flute and it sounds pretty good as well. Not as full sounding as the recordings I’ve listened to using a ribbon or condenser but could work in a mix.


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## Tralen (May 14, 2021)

DimensionsTomorrow said:


> Thanks. I’ll definitely consider a condenser as well. Here is another example of the SM57 on a wooden flute and it sounds quite good as well.



I don't know, I think that wooden tone is much more appropriate for the SM57. For the same price, I think the results of an AT2020 would be better for a concert flute, or even better, an AT4040, which is really smooth. The Lewitts also seem very nice and affordable, like the 240 and 440, but I've never tried them myself.

The dynamic mics have the advantage that they will tame (or kill) the problem frequencies of the flute, but I never had any luck getting a satisfying sound from them. Some cheap condensers, however, may actually make those frequencies worse. Even though I really enjoyed the Behringer C1 for my voice, it was a disaster for my flute.


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## Toecutter (May 14, 2021)

DimensionsTomorrow said:


> Has anyone had any success with learning on their own? I wouldn’t be looking to play classical stuff, more old-school funk/rock/jazz “groove” kind of lines.


This guy had "some" success XD


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## DimensionsTomorrow (May 14, 2021)

Tralen said:


> I don't know, I think that wooden tone is much more appropriate for the SM57. For the same price, I think the results of an AT2020 would be better for a concert flute, or even better, an AT4040, which is really smooth. The Lewitts also seem very nice and affordable, like the 240 and 440, but I've never tried them myself.
> 
> The dynamic mics have the advantage that they will tame (or kill) the problem frequencies of the flute, but I never had any luck getting a satisfying sound from them. Some cheap condensers, however, may actually make those frequencies worse. Even though I really enjoyed the Behringer C1 for my voice, it was a disaster for my flute.


Thanks for that! I appreciate all the info! I’ll look into the AT4040. (Edit: definitely looks like a winner!)


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## jvsax (May 15, 2021)

+1 for the suggestion to take some lessons to get started. That way you’ll get the right embouchure guidance to develop a good sound with good intonation right from the start, and you won’t have to unlearn anything later on. For flute chops, keep the corners down and the high range won’t blow sharp.


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## DimensionsTomorrow (May 15, 2021)

jvsax said:


> +1 for the suggestion to take some lessons to get started. That way you’ll get the right embouchure guidance to develop a good sound with good intonation right from the start, and you won’t have to unlearn anything later on. For flute chops, keep the corners down and the high range won’t blow sharp.


Definitely sounds like a good idea. I’m learning the fingerings now and and the first thing I taught myself was the D minor blues scale. It was enough to make me think I’m really going to enjoy this instrument, so I’m sure now that I want to take it to the next level. I’ll look around and see if I can find someone to help me with the basics.


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## Toecutter (May 15, 2021)

jvsax said:


> +1 for the suggestion to take some lessons to get started. That way you’ll get the right embouchure guidance to develop a good sound with good intonation right from the start, and you won’t have to unlearn anything later on. For flute chops, keep the corners down and the high range won’t blow sharp.


Agreed, getting a good teacher is key! You need to learn good technique and a teacher can help keep you from developing bad habits that are a pain to break later. A good teacher will also help you learn to teach yourself more efficiently. I linked the Ian Anderson video because he's a freak of nature, a glitch in the matrix, a very gifted and unique human... but even he decided to learn the "proper" way 20 some years later:

"Being self taught, and never having had a lesson, I was playing a lot of the notes using incorrect fingering,” Anderson says. “I had to relearn it again, in about ’91, I think. … It taught me to take a little more seriously. In relearning my own repertoire, it was a good lesson in mid life - not quite a crisis, but damned close to it."


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## DimensionsTomorrow (May 15, 2021)

I went by a local music shop and it turns out they have a teacher that does private flute lessons for a really reasonable price, BUT it looks like I will have to wait until the State of Emergency ends in Japan before they will open up any regular time slots that will accommodate my work schedule.

In the meantime, they said there will be a sort of 3-lesson summer special package opening up in a few weeks, so I might be able to do that as a way to see if I like the teacher and also to learn some basics. If that doesn’t work out, I’m sure I can find someone else, but I got a really good vibe from the shop, so I might hold off for a few weeks to see how this plays out.

The great thing about what they offer is that it’s private lessons each week, the teacher will cater the lessons to what you want to learn (no specific curriculum you have to follow), and she’s well-versed in jazz and pop as well as classical. Plus, you get a deep discount on their private practice rooms if you take lessons, which would be a nice perk.


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## thesteelydane (May 16, 2021)

DimensionsTomorrow said:


> I went by a local music shop and it turns out they have a teacher that does private flute lessons for a really reasonable price, BUT it looks like I will have to wait until the State of Emergency ends in Japan before they will open up any regular time slots that will accommodate my work schedule.
> 
> In the meantime, they said there will be a sort of 3-lesson summer special package opening up in a few weeks, so I might be able to do that as a way to see if I like the teacher and also to learn some basics. If that doesn’t work out, I’m sure I can find someone else, but I got a really good vibe from the shop, so I might hold off for a few weeks to see how this plays out.
> 
> The great thing about what they offer is that it’s private lessons each week, the teacher will cater the lessons to what you want to learn (no specific curriculum you have to follow), and she’s well-versed in jazz and pop as well as classical. Plus, you get a deep discount on their private practice rooms if you take lessons, which would be a nice perk.


In the meantime you could probably find a good online teacher at https://www.playwithapro.com/


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## robcs (May 16, 2021)

If volume truly is a problem, go electronic! I live in a condo townhouse, so I needed to be able to practice in silence, too.

Get an EWI USB or a second hand Yamaha WX5 (I’ve tried both and I sold the EWI and kept the WX5).

Neither of them has built-in voices, but they connect by USB to your computer and you’ll be able to control those expensive virtual wind libraries we all have lol

Or do what I did. I picked up a Yamaha Bluetooth midi connector and I’m able to hook up to my Mac or my iPad.


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## robcs (May 17, 2021)

robcs said:


> If volume truly is a problem, go electronic! I live in a condo townhouse, so I needed to be able to practice in silence, too.
> 
> Get an EWI USB or a second hand Yamaha WX5 (I’ve tried both and I sold the EWI and kept the WX5).
> 
> ...


And as a bonus, you can learn sax and recorder too - all on the same instrument :-D


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## Tralen (May 17, 2021)

robcs said:


> If volume truly is a problem, go electronic! I live in a condo townhouse, so I needed to be able to practice in silence, too.
> 
> Get an EWI USB or a second hand Yamaha WX5 (I’ve tried both and I sold the EWI and kept the WX5).
> 
> ...


The new EWI Solo has a built-in speaker for practice. It is my favourite wind controller.

I will also mention the Roland Aerophones for completion.


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## robcs (May 17, 2021)

Tralen said:


> The new EWI Solo has a built-in speaker for practice. It is my favourite wind controller.
> 
> I will also mention the Roland Aerophones for completion.


True - I'd forgotten the Solo. and the baby aerophone AE-01 could well come into the 'relatively cheap' category too, especially a used one.

The WX5 would still be my favourite, though, as it has real keys rather than capacitive buttons


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## Tralen (May 17, 2021)

robcs said:


> True - I'd forgotten the Solo. and the baby aerophone AE-01 could well come into the 'relatively cheap' category too, especially a used one.
> 
> The WX5 would still be my favourite, though, as it has real keys rather than capacitive buttons


I much prefer the buttons of the EWIs, I find them much more agile.

The main feature, however, that makes me a lifelong EWI fan is that you can make up your own fingering on the spot. The sharps/flats keys (and most of the main keys) simply add or remove 1 semitone when pressed, so you can combine them and improvise fingerings for different passages.


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## Nate Johnson (May 17, 2021)

DimensionsTomorrow said:


> I just love the sound on so many old recordings.


Dude, are we like the SAME person? I absolutely love the same type of flute sounds! So many musical things we have in common! 🤓


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## kitekrazy (May 17, 2021)

Am I the only one who dreams of walking into a pawn shop some day and getting a bassoon really cheap.


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## DimensionsTomorrow (May 17, 2021)

Someone on YouTube introduced me to this killer performance. Visually amazing as well.


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## bosone (May 18, 2021)

If anyone did not write it yet, consider taking some lessons at least at the beginning

i play a lot of instruments (in a bad way...) and flute is one of them. I learned when I was a child and then took 2-3 lessons when i was about 35. I don't play it very often now...

Getting a note is not straightforward and could be frustrating. The 2-3 lessons I took were extremely useful to understand how embouchure should be and how handle it.


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## DimensionsTomorrow (May 18, 2021)

bosone said:


> If anyone did not write it yet, consider taking some lessons at least at the beginning
> 
> i play a lot of instruments (in a bad way...) and flute is one of them. I learned when I was a child and then took 2-3 lessons when i was about 35. I don't play it very often now...
> 
> Getting a note is not straightforward and could be frustrating. The 2-3 lessons I took were extremely useful to understand how embouchure should be and how handle it.


Thanks, yep. That’s the plan!


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## maxchristensenaudio (May 19, 2021)

Flute and ethnic flute player here of 12+ years
You can absolutely learn on your own. I've taught myself many instruments.

One tip I would give you though is that you spend a lot of time with the basics, so scales and breath exercises.
because regardless of what style you'd like to play, you need breath control to do it.
Hitting the right notes with your fingers is one thing but without good control it won't sound good.


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## DimensionsTomorrow (May 21, 2021)

I just wanted to provide an update and say thanks to everyone.

To be honest, I am shocked at how well it’s going. I’m still working on getting private lessons and figuring out a regular practice space, but I’m getting some fantastic tones right off the bat just with the blues scale! This old Yamaha exceeds my expectations. I’m able to get the bluesy/jazzy sounds in my head pretty much right from the start, which is amazing as I’ve *played* guitar for decades and have never felt good about my playing. It’s definitely making me think I started with the wrong instrument, lol. 

I’m a bit limited playing at home as I need to keep the volume down and be careful of when I play, but it turns out that one of the karaoke joints right near my places can be used for instrument practice (something I had never looked into before). Once the state of emergency declaration has ended I plan on making good use of it as their morning and weekday rates are super cheap, just a few bucks for an hour.

Anyway, thanks again for all the advice. I’m pretty sure I would have given up on the idea without it and I’m so glad I didn’t. This will no doubt provide a lifetime of fun, especially if I can get good enough to play with other musicians.


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## DimensionsTomorrow (Aug 30, 2022)

And a quick update. I’ve just finished a year of private lessons through Yamaha/Yamano Music and still going. Thanks very much for the advice everyone. I’m moving into the intermediate curriculum now, so things are really picking up, but I’m having a blast.


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## vitocorleone123 (Sep 6, 2022)

A flutist flouts their flute while eating floutas.

Consider yourself schooled.

/mic

🤪


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