# Plugins for mixing and mastering



## emilio_n (Jun 3, 2020)

Hello!
I am looking for some plugins for mixing and mastering. I got Ozone 9 and Neutron 3 elements for free a few weeks ago and I checked that I can get Tonal Balance Bundle (Ozone 9, Neutron 3, Nectar 3 and Tonal Balance 2 All advanced) with crossgrade for 185$. (Reg Price 700$)

I am trying to read a lot of information about if this offer worth it or not. Some people say Fabfilter is a much better suite, some people say that for newbies in audio mixing and mastering Izotope is easier and with more options. I am using Logic Pro X and even I read some people that think that the stock plugins of Logic are more than enough.

I know FabFilter products get a lot of love here and I think I can apply for the educational discount. (50%)

I don't want to open a debate about fanboys of each brand, but I will appreciate a lot your comments. I know there are some posts in the past talking about it in the past, but not very new.

What do you think?
Thanks in advance.

EDIT: I am not really in a hurry to get something, but if the Izotope offer for Tonal Balance is a great deal, I don't want to let it go.


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## Jackdaw (Jun 3, 2020)

I'm a newbie on this, but must say that with my experience the Tonal balance bundle has been great and the price was just insanely low compared what I got out of it. I also bought Ozone elements for 9€ back in spring and with that I was eligible for the supercheap advanced bundle. Earlier I bought Fabfilter Pro-Q3 for eq (with EDU discount) and I'm using it as my go-to EQ. I haven't used Nectar at all. I just tried it a bit and it seems to be so hungry CPU hog (especially compared to pro-q) so it is just collecting dust. But Ozone9 Advanced (+ tonal balancer) are well worth the price even if you don't use the rest of the bundle at all. My 2 cents.


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## hypnotize (Jun 3, 2020)

Hi Emilio, I have an old Ozone 8, but to be honest - Fabfilter equalizer is best for me. They have a whole set of very high quality plugins for mixing and mastering.
But we must not forget, that mixing and mastering this is part of the creative idea of your own music, therefore, you can use the plugins that are available and do not chase the best.


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## emilio_n (Jun 3, 2020)

hypnotize said:


> Hi Emilio, I have an old Ozone 8, but to be honest - Fabfilter equalizer is best for me. They have a whole set of very high quality plugins for mixing and mastering.
> But we must not forget, that this is part of the creative idea of your own music, therefore, you can use the plugins that are available and do not chase the best.


Are FabFilter plugins same user friendly for newbies at this matter like me?
I read that Fabfilter is more fair and transparent with the updates and take more care of the use of resources. Is slightly more expensive but I am ok if worth it.


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## hypnotize (Jun 3, 2020)

The principles of work are the same for everyone, so if princes are understandable, then all plugins will be convenient. In FabFilter equalizer I really like that you can listen a frequency, which you cut or raise. When I was a newbie, it was very convenient for me and now I always use it. I have never seen such a function.


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## Manaberry (Jun 3, 2020)

You guys should get FabFilter, beginner or not. There are trials out there. Try everything. Judge by yourself with your ears. That's very important!

I recommend you to get also Panpot from Goodhertz. Very useful! 
Soundtoys got also some nice effects to play with.

For the master, I don't use any bundle "all in one".
MasterComp from PSP is great.
I use a bunch of plugins (tube compressor, saturator, EQ, limiter) to create my own master chain. Definitely not easy to master. So, I can't really be helpful here.

Again, the choice of some specific plugins depends on the type of track you are dealing with. So, until you guys get enough experience to know exactly what you are aiming for (in terms of sound), go for the most versatile plugins. (And wait for any sales if you are patient enough.)


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## Monkberry (Jun 3, 2020)

I ended up getting an upgrade deal from Izotope last month so I jumped on the Ozone 9 ADV, Neutron 3, and Tonal Balance Control 2 bundle. It also included Nectar 3 but I was more interested in mix bus plugins. $185 is a great price (I paid $199 but I had Ozone 5 so that factored into it). I love the newer version of Ozone but I still use my three main mix bus plugins (while I'm learning my way around Ozone 9, Neutron 3 & Tonal Control 2) which are Slate Tape sim, NI Passive EQ or DMG Audio EQ and DMG Limitless. Occasionally use Elephant 4 for limiter and Slate mix bus compressors. I have started using Ozone 9 EQ and other tools within and it is very capable of getting great results. I know a lot of folks love the FabFilter EQ and limiter and I would probably have them except they never seem to be on sale when I have money to spare. If they have a demo, check it out and see if it clicks with you but 50% off is hard to pass on. The Izotope deal is a lot of bang for the buck though and there are some pretty remarkable tools in that bundle.


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## Rory (Jun 3, 2020)

One of the attractions of iZotope is that it has a strong focus on educating people on how to use its products. It does this via both articles on its web site and videos. If you subscribe, there’s a newsletter sent every Saturday on the latest articles and videos.

The videos that mastering engineer Jonathan Wyner makes for iZotope are well worth watching even if you are using tools made by other companies.

In addition, training companies like Groove3 and Ask.Audio offer up to date online courses on Ozone and other iZotope tools.

iZotope also makes Insight 2, a superb metering tool, and RX, the most widely used audio correction tool in broadcasting and increasingly used in music production. RX is also widely used for sound design purposes.


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## Living Fossil (Jun 3, 2020)

I clearly prefer the izotope Neutron/Ozone combo.

Have Fabfilter's MB Pro and almost never use it (because it damages the sound) and i demoed their EQ when version 3 came out. It's definitely not better sounding than the izotope offerings, however, the workflow and the intuitive GUI might be relevant points for many users.

p.s. what lots of people don't see is that the Ozone algorithms (EQ and some others) have lots of different possible settings that affect the sound in many ways. So they have quite a learning curve.

p.p.s i have to add that i don't use all those auto-assistant features of izotope.


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## Casiquire (Jun 3, 2020)

Ozone is an amazing learning tool because you can start with their presets, really feel the way it changes the sound, and then tweak it from there. Neutron is good but i find it slightly less useful since I'm already pretty comfortable with mixing, but I imagine it provides the same usefulness as Ozone to someone who is not.

Definitely supplement them with FabFilter though. Get your basics: Pro-Q and Pro-C at minimum for mixing. Pro-L can be useful and important in mastering too.

Nectar is decent but I feel like the further down you go to smaller and smaller levels with Izotope products, like when you get to the individual track level, you have diminishing returns from them. Nectar makes a vocal sound pretty good but your particular song might need a totally different style than Nectar provides. Again though, it's a good learning tool.


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## Living Fossil (Jun 3, 2020)

Casiquire said:


> Get your basics: Pro-Q and Pro-C at minimum for mixing.



But why?


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## Zero&One (Jun 3, 2020)

I use Neutron/Ozone and I do like them. Although I do also use Logics stock plugs an awful lot too.

If I was in your position now, learn the Logic plugs inside out. Learn what a MB compressor & Limiter is doing and why. Play with the metering & correlation. Play with the Exciter 

Once you have these exhausted... blow $300 on other plugs. At least you'll know why you are buying them during demos. Otherwise you are buying plugins because we say we like them and not because you really need them.


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## emilio_n (Jun 3, 2020)

Zero&One said:


> I use Neutron/Ozone and I do like them. Although I do also use Logics stock plugs an awful lot too.
> 
> If I was in your position now, learn the Logic plugs inside out. Learn what a MB compressor & Limiter is doing and why. Play with the metering & correlation. Play with the Exciter
> 
> Once you have these exhausted... blow $300 on other plugs. At least you'll know why you are buying them during demos. Otherwise you are buying plugins because we say we like them and not because you really need them.


Good advice as usual. 
I am feeling the press of the sales and is quite stupid as now looks there are sales every month.


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## merty (Jun 3, 2020)

I recommend Tokyo Dawn Labs stuff for hobbyists. 

Extremely easy and fast to use, fair priced, low-cpu, the auto-adjust funtions to me better than anything else out there.


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## BezO (Jun 3, 2020)

Watching. Can't imagine it's much different other than less effected, but my arsenal was built for non orchestral music. I'm curious if there are any go-to plugin types specific to the genre.

As someone transitioning from Logic to Studio One, I also recommend working with the Logic plugins. They're good and they have digital and analog emulations.

But I will say Izotope's Tonal Balancer is very helpful, showing you results.


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## emilio_n (Jun 3, 2020)

BezO said:


> Watching. Can't imagine it's much different other than less effected, but my arsenal was built for non orchestral music. I'm curious if there are any go-to plugin types specific to the genre.
> 
> As someone transitioning from Logic to Studio One, I also recommend working with the Logic plugins. They're good and they have digital and analog emulations.
> 
> But I will say Izotope's Tonal Balancer is very helpful, showing you results.


Not related to my initial question but just curious... Why are you leaving Logic to go to Studio One?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 3, 2020)

I was in the same boat, I ended up buying Ozone 9 Advanced, FF Q3, and a few other plugins that were on sale (such as PSP Master Comp for $20). I also grabbed Sonible Smart EQ and Smart Comp on sale, which are both awesome.

I now use Ozone 9 for mastering, and everything else during mixing. The cool thing with Ozone is that you can insert 3rd party plugins right into a session.

FF Q3 is my favourite EQ ever, and I use it a ton. I tried using the Ozone EQ in Logic, but it introduces latency when using it in digital mode.....which isn’t a big deal when you’re at the mixing stage.

I really tried to like FF C2 and L2, but just didn’t gel with them. C2 is just too “clean” for my taste. The stock Logic compressors are wonderful, even for orchestral music. I’ve tested the Logic channel EQ alongside Q3, and Q3 is much more transparent.


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## JohnG (Jun 3, 2020)

Some people feel it's important to really learn how to master, grappling with each plugin, EQ, compressor and so on.

Maybe that would be ideal, but honestly I find that pretty boring; would much rather analyse John Adams' music!

I'm sure that all the DAWs have free plugins that are both light on the CPU and very high quality, so that is certainly one way to go. A Youtube search titled, "mastering with logic stock plugins" yields many free videos.

By contrast, if you just want to use presets in Izotope I don't think you go directly to jail. I don't have it, fwiw.


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## Casiquire (Jun 3, 2020)

Living Fossil said:


> But why?



Because a compressor and EQ are absolutely vital tools, and FabFilter has done them better than any other I've used.

Am I misunderstanding, or are you unsure of the importance of having a compressor and EQ in the arsenal?


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## Iswhatitis (Jun 3, 2020)

emilio_n said:


> Hello!
> I am looking for some plugins for mixing and mastering. I got Ozone 9 and Neutron 3 elements for free a few weeks ago and I checked that I can get Tonal Balance Bundle (Ozone 9, Neutron 3, Nectar 3 and Tonal Balance 2 All advanced) with crossgrade for 185$. (Reg Price 700$)
> 
> I am trying to read a lot of information about if this offer worth it or not. Some people say Fabfilter is a much better suite, some people say that for newbies in audio mixing and mastering Izotope is easier and with more options. I am using Logic Pro X and even I read some people that think that the stock plugins of Logic are more than enough.
> ...


Get the FabFilter Total bundle for 50% off, that’s a very good one to own.

Many of the plugin alliance plugins are excellent too. Though try to spend $29 or less per plugin and wait for big sales to happen to get the best pricing. One thing I would suggest is if you buy a UA audio interface or get a UA satellite and then buy their Ultimate bundle package during a sale you can first get all the UA plugins for the cheapest price and then contact plugin alliance and for $100 total get the Native audio units version of all their plugins that overlap with the ones by plugin alliance in the UA Ultimate Bundle. I wish I had done that to save a lot of money.

The Waves Mercury bundle is good to own when they have 50% sales.

Softube makes a big Volume bundle that’s good too, again always wait for 50% off sales.

Sonnox Oxford also make great sounding plugins, wait for the big sales.


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## BezO (Jun 3, 2020)

emilio_n said:


> Not related to my initial question but just curious... Why are you leaving Logic to go to Studio One?


I almost always use an external sequencer for drums & percussion, the MPC in my avatar. Logic is not external sequencer friendly. I got tired of jumping through the hoops.

I do miss some things, especially the dynamic plugin loading. Now that I'm delving into proper orchestral music, with a bigger template, and won't be sequencing the drums & percussion on the MPC, I may use Logic for that. Just not sure about being fluent in 2 DAWs.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 3, 2020)

Casiquire said:


> Because a compressor and EQ are absolutely vital tools, and FabFilter has done them better than any other I've used.
> 
> Am I misunderstanding, or are you unsure of the importance of having a compressor and EQ in the arsenal?



I think I meant that Ozone 9 has everything you need. Excellent EQ and compressors (both digital and analog), multi-band compressor, imagers, limiters, etc.


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## Living Fossil (Jun 3, 2020)

Casiquire said:


> Am I misunderstanding, or are you unsure of the importance of having a compressor and EQ in the arsenal?



LOL, no.
I just think (as written in my post above) that there is absolutely no need for ProQ3 for someone who has the izotope package. The workflow might be more comfortable (specially if you're used to it), but sonically it is not better.
For the compressor, if it's about a really clean compressor i would prefer Klanghelm's DC3 (allthough it's cheap). DC3 is extremely powerful, you just have to turn the saturation off.
All in all i think there is a bit of a Fabfilter hype in the music fora that isn't always based on the acoustic quality of their plugins. (can't comment on the limiter though, since i never tried that one)


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## Casiquire (Jun 3, 2020)

Wolfie2112 said:


> I think I meant that Ozone 9 has everything you need. Excellent EQ and compressors (both digital and analog), multi-band compressor, imagers, limiters, etc.



I'm definitely not interested in putting an instance of Ozone on every single track that needs an effect. That's not what it was built for. It would be extremely resource intensive and just overpowered with all kinds of extra elements you don't even need. Imagine loading up a full orchestra template because you need one triangle hit. Ozone is clearly built just for one instance on the master bus.

You could use Neutron for something like that, but with some similar criticisms: it's built as a sort of all-in-one solution and it's heavier on resources than a single effect like ProQ.

Last point on that, the FabFilter products are much more well rounded and full featured workhorse versions of each standalone plugin. The UI alone is worth the cost, plus built in features like letting it highlight masked frequencies in red are really effective


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## Living Fossil (Jun 3, 2020)

Casiquire said:


> Ozone is clearly built just for one instance on the master bus.
> 
> You could use Neutron for something like that, but with some similar criticisms: it's built as a sort of all-in-one solution and it's heavier on resources than a single effect like ProQ.



That's not exactly true if you take into consideration the advanced versions which come with standalone modules.
(i guess i have only used standalone modules of Neutron so far).


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 3, 2020)

Casiquire said:


> I'm definitely not interested in putting an instance of Ozone on every single track that needs an effect. That's not what it was built for. It would be extremely resource intensive and just overpowered with all kinds of extra elements you don't even need. Imagine loading up a full orchestra template because you need one triangle hit. Ozone is clearly built just for one instance on the master bus.
> 
> You could use Neutron for something like that, but with some similar criticisms: it's built as a sort of all-in-one solution and it's heavier on resources than a single effect like ProQ.
> 
> Last point on that, the FabFilter products are much more well rounded and full featured workhorse versions of each standalone plugin. The UI alone is worth the cost, plus built in features like letting it highlight masked frequencies in red are really effective



That's the misconception with Ozone 9 Advanced. Not only can it be used as a "module", but each plugin can be used in it's own right, you can use them individually on channel strips (with very low CPU hit). The EQ is top notch, and just as good as FF Q3 (you can even solo each band). It's all about personal preference, that's it. I cannot work with FF C2 or L2, I don't prefer the GUI's. They are sonically good, but not my cup of tea.

Also, I don't use the Ozone module inside my DAW, I use it as a standalone.


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## Casiquire (Jun 3, 2020)

Living Fossil said:


> That's not exactly true if you take into consideration the advanced versions which come with standalone modules.
> (i guess i have only used standalone modules of Neutron so far).


Ah, I don't have those so I can't comment on how they compare to FF, but the point is that you do have some standalone full featured plugins of that type


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## Rory (Jun 3, 2020)

Wolfie2112 said:


> I don't use the Ozone module inside my DAW, I use it as a standalone.



Same here.


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## HokageKakashi (Jun 3, 2020)

emilio_n said:


> Hello!
> I am looking for some plugins for mixing and mastering. I got Ozone 9 and Neutron 3 elements for free a few weeks ago and I checked that I can get Tonal Balance Bundle (Ozone 9, Neutron 3, Nectar 3 and Tonal Balance 2 All advanced) with crossgrade for 185$. (Reg Price 700$)
> 
> I am trying to read a lot of information about if this offer worth it or not. Some people say Fabfilter is a much better suite, some people say that for newbies in audio mixing and mastering Izotope is easier and with more options. I am using Logic Pro X and even I read some people that think that the stock plugins of Logic are more than enough.
> ...


Mixing and mastering engineer here! I do agree that Fabfilter generally offers more than iZotope. The Tonal Balance Bundle is great, but a lot of the stuff in there is more "AI assistant" style. There's nothing wrong with that, and I think they are designed more for musicians and producers rather than audio engineers. Ozone 9 is a professional-grade suite, but the standard version doesn't come with individual plugins, which isn't really practical in a real-world mastering situation because we rarely use only one plugin suite to master.

Fabfilter plugins are more for audio engineers, and I think they just offer more flexibility, capabilities and value in general. You should absolutely take advantage of the educational account. Saturn 2 itself is phenomenal, and Pro-Q is a desert island EQ for so many engineers. Pro-R is one hell of a reverb plugin, and you won't find a more advanced delay plugin than Timeless. Pro-C is a crazily versatile compressor, but Logic has like 8 compressors, and they are all amazing, so I don't think getting Pro-C is important. 

I will have to say though, that Ozone's limiter (they call it Maximizer) is much better than Pro-L imo.

I also recommend looking at Plugin Alliance's Mix & Master bundle. It's $149 a year and you get a ton of plugins that are amazing for mixing and mastering. However, I do think that the bundle is better for more experienced engineers who understand the different colors of different hardware pieces, since most of PA's plugins are hardware emulations. I also don't like any of PA's limiters.

I definitely think going with Fabfilter will be the best value for you. Logic has some amazing stock plugins (such as the meter plugins, which are great for mastering), and Fabfilter's plugins complement Logic's plugins very well.


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## Casiquire (Jun 3, 2020)

HokageKakashi said:


> I will have to say though, that Ozone's limiter (they call it Maximizer) is much better than Pro-L imo.


I ADORE Ozone's limiter. Strongly agree


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## R. Soul (Jun 3, 2020)

I love my Fabfilter plugins, so no arguing there. 

However, there's a few recent plugins that have made more difference to my mixes than this vs. that compressor or EQ. 
In particular:
- Soothe 2 for controlling resonant frequencies. 
- Bassroom and Mixroom for matching your track against commercial ones. 
- Gullfoss for bringing some sparkle and clarity to my mixes. 

Honerable mention to AB Metric, for A/B-ing against reference tracks.


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## GtrString (Jun 3, 2020)

Stock DAW plugins all the way for anyone in their first 10 years of producing. You dont need anything Izotope either (sterile and boxy sounding to me). If you can identify the problems at hand, next step is to learn the plugins in your daw. 3rd party is not better, but just different colors, once you get tired of the plugins in your daw. Less is more!


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## Rory (Jun 3, 2020)

GtrString said:


> Stock DAW plugins all the way for anyone in their first 10 years of producing. You dont need anything Izotope either (sterile and boxy sounding to me).



This is like telling someone who uses physical analogue gear that he or she should use only one physical compressor for their first decade. That doesn’t strike me as self-evident, or indeed what someone who wants to learn should do.

You are entitled to your opinion on iZotope tools, but I don’t think that Jonathan Wyner would be working closely with iZotope if he thought that its products are sterile junk. That is certainly not my own experience, going back to RX3 when I first started using iZotope products.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 3, 2020)

GtrString said:


> Stock DAW plugins all the way for anyone in their first 10 years of producing. You dont need anything Izotope either (sterile and boxy sounding to me). If you can identify the problems at hand, next step is to learn the plugins in your daw. 3rd party is not better, but just different colors, once you get tired of the plugins in your daw. Less is more!



Bizarre advice, but to each his/her own. Stock plugs are generally good, but using 3rd party stuff (IMO) adds more flavour to the sonic toolbox, and can actually be very educational. As a Logic user, I just can’t get surgical enough with the channel eq, doesn’t cut it. Regarding Ozone, I also found it kind of sterile at first. But once I got under the hood, I got hooked and now I understand why top engineers use it.


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## HokageKakashi (Jun 3, 2020)

GtrString said:


> Stock DAW plugins all the way for anyone in their first 10 years of producing. You dont need anything Izotope either (sterile and boxy sounding to me). If you can identify the problems at hand, next step is to learn the plugins in your daw. 3rd party is not better, but just different colors, once you get tired of the plugins in your daw. Less is more!


Depending on which DAW the person is using, the stock plugins can vary DRASTICALLY. Even with Logic, which has arguably some of the best and most comprehensive stock plugins, sticking with stock plugins for 10 years is a horrible idea and will become a huge bottleneck after a few years.

I do agree that until one masters the stock plugins, there's little not much point to getting third party plugins, because if you don't know how to use the stock ones, then you won't get much out of the third party ones either.


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## jcrosby (Jun 3, 2020)

emilio_n said:


> Hello!
> I am looking for some plugins for mixing and mastering. I got Ozone 9 and Neutron 3 elements for free a few weeks ago and I checked that I can get Tonal Balance Bundle (Ozone 9, Neutron 3, Nectar 3 and Tonal Balance 2 All advanced) with crossgrade for 185$. (Reg Price 700$)
> 
> I am trying to read a lot of information about if this offer worth it or not. Some people say Fabfilter is a much better suite, some people say that for newbies in audio mixing and mastering Izotope is easier and with more options. I am using Logic Pro X and even I read some people that think that the stock plugins of Logic are more than enough.
> ...



I have both the TBC bundle and FF. While FF's undeniably excellent I typically prefer Ozone. The range of tools you get for the same price you'd spend on FF is far beyond what you get with FF. This also doesn't imply Ozone's features are inferior in any way... (Despite the fact that many people insist it does. Case in point? *Pro-Q3's Collision Detection* is heavily _influenced _by Neutron's *Masking Meter, *which pre-dates Pro-Q3).

I also find I prefer Ozone's limiter in most situations. It retains more transient detail, and "transient emphasis" is great if you have something aggressive that requires it to be mastered loud, while allowing percussive material to cut.

TBC 2's incredibly useful. You can import your own tracks for reference curves. You can also import a folder of audio files to create an averaged curve. Ultimately it's intended to help you deliver consistent mixes, and useful for delivering consistency in high pressure or time sensitive situations..

TBC also has another trick people often aren't aware of, importing stem references and using these on your busses to check each group's frequency balance. Unfortunately not everyone has access to stems, if you do though this is where it gets really powerful. Not to mention it can shorten delivery times... (I have some unique insight about it, PM me if you feel like it...)

Just as a quick point of reference of how frequently I use stuff from the bundle... All of these are standard in my composition templates:

Neutron Exciter
Neutron Compressor
Neutron Transient Shaper
Netron EQ
Sculptor
TBC 2 - (using custom reference curves)
Ozone Exciter
Ozone EQ

Frequently Used:

Ozone match-eq - (handy for otherwise _'impossible'_ deadlines. Delivered a 51 track mix + stems to a trailer label in 24 hours recently using it  )
Vintage Tape
Vintage Compressor
Ozone dynamics
Ozone dynamic EQ

Standard in my mastering template:

Ozone Maximizer
Ozone Exciter
Ozone Dynamics
Ozone Imager
Ozone EQ
Ozone dynamic EQ
Ozone match-eq - (same scenario as above...)
TBC 2 - (custom reference curves)

The advanced versions also give you the benefit of individual plugins for every module, while not crucial it is quite useful... I can look at my insert plugin names and know what's where at a glance, no need for redundant instances of the main plugin everywhere..

Nectar's great as well. It's also not a one trick pony, I've used it to process all kinds of stuff... A fantastic all around channel strip. Low End Focus, Master Rebalance are also quite cool. Definitely geared toward very specific uses, but incredible technology...

Either way I'd demo the advanced versions... I'd also play with TBC 2's custom reference file feature. Incredibly useful for having consistent mixes/masters...

*EDIT*: I'm also a Logic user  These all play very well in Logic. (Mind you I'm not on Catalina so can't comment on that end, but Izotope's typically on top of it...)


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## jcrosby (Jun 3, 2020)

GtrString said:


> (sterile and boxy sounding to me).


Ever so curious.. How so?


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## emilio_n (Jun 3, 2020)

Wow!
I am impressed about all the useful information here, the trillions of options available and how each one has different preferences.
Looks you should try and have most of them when you are improving and getting more professional because each one gives you different things for different moments.

After reading carefully all your comments, suggestions and experiences, I think in my case I need to learn and play with the stock plugins of Logic and maybe buy the TBC bundle for 185$ because is a great deal and I will get a lot of all the plugins with the advanced version and a lot of you love. 

Is clear that I need to keep an eye on Fabfilter products and other great suggestions that you posted here, but I think to fill the spaces missed in the stock + TBC combination.

Have this sense?


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## GtrString (Jun 3, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Ever so curious.. How so?





jcrosby said:


> Ever so curious.. How so?



Ok I'll give one explanation here, sorry I don't adhere to the fan club lobby, but I have had a number of their products over the years, and ab'ed them with stock plugins in Studio One. I can hear no advantage, and the sounds I got was sterile and (in terms of Ozone 8), boxy. Im sure I could have dialed that out, but I got quicker results with stock DAW plugins. That is just my experience from over a year using them, and that's why I feel there is a need to provide a little "hold on" to new producers here.

But there is no point of discussing this with this little information available of my tests, preferences and musical targets. Anyone trying that will always fall short. This is music, and sound ideals are subjective, that's what allows everyone to say "naah, you are an idiot". We even have EQ profiles built into our ears. If you like it, its fine, but I feel there is too little criticism of these tools that are pushed VERY hard to newbies by influencers in social media and forum lobbyists.

So, I start from a different position. I do have first hand experience ect. But I don't have economic interests at stake here, I don't get paid for giving "advice", and will not spend for 1000Punds of hrs to prove anyone wrong on the internet.

Shit storm or not, my voice is saying, there is no automatic need to go and buy 3rd party plugins, if you don't know how to use those in your DAW. DAW plugins are good, and may not sound the same at the same settings, but use your ears and don't listen with your eyes. You can get the same results. Especially compared with characterless plugins like Izotope's (their USP is surgical edits based on visual information).


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## novaburst (Jun 4, 2020)

I think fab filter is fabulous but Ozone 9 is very advanced


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 4, 2020)

novaburst said:


> I think fab filter is fabulous but Ozone 9 is very advanced



Or if you’re thrifty, then Ozone is quite standard.....or......wait for it......elemental!


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## jcrosby (Jun 4, 2020)

GtrString said:


> Ok I'll give one explanation here, sorry I don't adhere to the fan club lobby, but I have had a number of their products over the years, and ab'ed them with stock plugins in Studio One. I can hear no advantage, and the sounds I got was sterile and (in terms of Ozone 8), boxy. Im sure I could have dialed that out, but I got quicker results with stock DAW plugins. That is just my experience from over a year using them, and that's why I feel there is a need to provide a little "hold on" to new producers here.
> 
> But there is no point of discussing this with this little information available of my tests, preferences and musical targets. Anyone trying that will always fall short. This is music, and sound ideals are subjective, that's what allows everyone to say "naah, you are an idiot". We even have EQ profiles built into our ears. If you like it, its fine, but I feel there is too little criticism of these tools that are pushed VERY hard to newbies by influencers in social media and forum lobbyists.
> 
> ...


Whatever works for you is fine, I'd never disagree with anyone one on that... I do find it interesting given that Ozone is common in commercial mastering and RX is a staple in post production and forensic audio. And while I don't disagree that sound is subjective, the definition of _boxy_ is subjective in and of itself.

But if someone posts a question and people who actually use these tools in their day to day give their opinion I don't see what _social media influencers, heavily pushed,_ etc has to do with anything. I also don't see how a consensus opinion from people at the top of their industry is somehow equivalent to a_ fan club. _How often do you see a dialogue editor in a commercial endorsement? And yet why is RX a tool in their tool box? 

It sounds like you're referring to marketing, good luck finding any commercial product that isn't marketed in some way. How do you think you discovered Studio One, and have you ever considered that its features and plugins were marketed to you by Presonus?

Interestingly I don't disagree with you that DAW plugins are generally ok. I just happen to find 3rd party plugins are typically higher quality, and more importantly often have features not available in stock plugins. Just like I'll reach for Kontakt long before considering a stock DAW string patch, commercial audio plugins typically bring something to the table stock DAW plugins don't.


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## NekujaK (Jun 4, 2020)

Nowadays we are spoiled with so many insanely great plugin choices. Rewind 15-or-so years, and pretty much there was Waves, and not much more in the way of high quality plugins. And yet, people were still making great music and mixes.

So take a look at some of the top tier plugin makers: FabFilter, Plugin Alliance, Waves, IK Multimedia, Izotope, Acustica, and see what fits your budget. I guarantee you they all sound great. If you perceive a weakness or flaw in your mixes, the problem is defiinitely not going to be because you used a FabFilter compressor instead of a Waves compressor.

Just pick a tool and start using it. Our own limitations as inexperienced engineers will hold us back far more than any of the tools available to us in this age of digital music production.


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## JohnG (Jun 4, 2020)

NekujaK said:


> Our own limitations as inexperienced engineers will hold us back far more than any of the tools available to us in this age of digital music production.



So true. Nice post @NekujaK


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## jcrosby (Jun 5, 2020)

NekujaK said:


> So take a look at some of the top tier plugin makers: FabFilter, Plugin Alliance, Waves, IK Multimedia, Izotope, Acustica, and see what fits your budget. I guarantee you they all sound great. If you perceive a weakness or flaw in your mixes, the problem is defiinitely not going to be because you used a FabFilter compressor instead of a Waves compressor.



Amen to that as well... As the saying goes: _It's the poor craftsman that blames his tools_.


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## rudi (Jun 5, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Amen to that as well... As the saying goes: _It's the poor craftsman that blames his tools_.


Did someone call me?  

Seriously, @NekujaK made some great points. There was a time when choices for good EQs were far more restricted whereas now we have so many more choices, and most of them are excellent. One of the major factor with EQ as others have said is the user - there is a learning curve to be able to identify problem areas, frequencies, boost or cut, as well as artistic decisions.

When using Fabilter Pro-Q 3, it has an excellent sound quality, but so have many others EQs. What really appeals to me is the ease of use of its graphical interface - it makes it easy to pick the right frequency, Q, and shape. After years of using skeuomorphic EQs with sliders, knobs, buttons, and small frequency displays, having that great uncluterred interface has been a joy to use. It's also been a learning opportunity as it is so easy to use and experiment with.

The other type of EQ are "character" ones that don't aim to be transparent or neutral but add something to the signal. 

Besides the workflow and sound quality, there is also the question of cost and CPU usage. Once again there is a huge amount of choice for all wallets.


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## merty (Jun 5, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Amen to that as well... As the saying goes: _It's the poor craftsman that blames his tools_.



It actually the overuse of plug-ins that ruin a mix not lack of it.


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## Consona (Jun 5, 2020)

emilio_n said:


> I got Ozone 9 and Neutron 3 elements for free


Then you have everything you need.


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## Yogevs (Jun 5, 2020)

I just checked and I can get the bundle for $199 as well. I only got Ozone 9 and Neutron 3 but both - Elements version. Should I pull the trigger and upgrade to the Advanced version here ?


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## MauroPantin (Jun 5, 2020)

I do have other plugins that I use occasionally in a creative capacity, but I use both Ozone and Neutron almost exclusively for mixing and mastering (aside from a mono filter for the low end). Very intuitive, very fast to work with. 

I don't really care too much for the process, I don't enjoy it. And spending too much time on those tasks completely disrupts my aural perception of what sounds good, so I want to get it done in the least amount of time possible. That's easy to do with these tools once you learn how to use them.

Not a fan of the "auto" processing, though. I find the suggested settings to be too extreme. 90% of the time, mixing and mastering are about subtlety.


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## motomotomoto (Jun 5, 2020)

As someone who has both the Fab Filter Bundle and Izotope Ozone and Neutron Advanced (as well as a few thousand dollars more of mixing plugs) I can tell you that either bundle will be able to mix or master any genre as well as anything in the box. There isn't a set of plugs you can get that are functionally better than the bundles from those two companies. In my experience I use the Fab Filter stuff more often, but honestly I would be completely happy mixing with Izotope product line as well.

One more thing, don't be pressured to get that Tonal Balance bundle for 200 bucks right away, it's pretty much on sale for that all the time if you have another major product of theirs.


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## Lee Blaske (Jun 5, 2020)

I'm probably duplicating what others have said, but the plugins in Logic are pretty fantastic (the EQ just got an upgrade in 10.5). From there, adding the Ozone stuff would be my next stop (I've got everything they make, and it's great). After that, there's a LOT of other stuff to consider. I do like Pro-R. There's some really incredible stuff with a lot of AI in it these days (like the Sonible plug-ins). If you just had all the stuff that comes with Logic, plus some iZotope stuff, though, you'd have a LOT to work with.


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## motomotomoto (Jun 5, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Whatever works for you is fine, I'd never disagree with anyone one on that... I do find it interesting given that Ozone is common in commercial mastering and RX is a staple in post production and forensic audio. And while I don't disagree that sound is subjective, the definition of _boxy_ is subjective in and of itself.
> 
> But if someone posts a question and people who actually use these tools in their day to day give their opinion I don't see what _social media influencers, heavily pushed,_ etc has to do with anything. I also don't see how a consensus opinion from people at the top of their industry is somehow equivalent to a_ fan club. _How often do you see a dialogue editor in a commercial endorsement? And yet why is RX a tool in their tool box?
> 
> ...




I think it really depends on the DAW. I'm primarily a Logic user and the included plugs cover most of the bases very well. IMO the only primary tools that don't have great stock options in Logic would be saturation, limiting, and soft clipping. I honestly think I could rely on doing everything else in Logic mixing plugin wise.


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## borisb2 (Jun 5, 2020)

How does Cubase stock plugins compare to Logic?

I‘m on Cubase and are still usIng some of their stock plugins - is that considered a no go? So far I‘m quite happy with the results (for orchestral stuff).. Only for reverb I invested in Lexicon Native bundle. Looking at Fabfilter often but so far didnt pull the plug.


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## vitocorleone123 (Jun 5, 2020)

Ozone is great. Neutron is ok. Fabfilter was among the best but are aging - still as easy to use and still sound good. Learn what you have or can easily upgrade to. Find out whether you like adding color with compressor types or EQ types etc then look at some analog style plugins.

Tonal B is great, but I think it’s even better paired up with Mastering the Mix Reference.


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## jcrosby (Jun 6, 2020)

motomotomoto said:


> I think it really depends on the DAW. I'm primarily a Logic user and the included plugs cover most of the bases very well. IMO the only primary tools that don't have great stock options in Logic would be saturation, limiting, and soft clipping. I honestly think I could rely on doing everything else in Logic mixing plugin wise.


Logic does have very good effects. There are some things ozone has Logic doesn't though, and while Adaptive limiter is the best DAW stock limiter I've heard by a large margin, Ozone's limiter is quite a bit more transparent with some really useful features you just can't get out of Logic's...

Here's a other few things Ozone does that Logic doesn't currently offer...Dynamic EQ, mono-compatible imaging (with a mono-compatible haas effect option), Multiband exciting/saturation, mixed phase modes & band shelves in the EQ, some very sophisticated dithering, and the ability to preview your mix/master through an AAC and mp3 codec emulation. While most of these aren't critical by some people's standards I do use just all of them regularly.

Again though, I actually do use a fair amount of Logic's DAW effects as well. They're indeed great, and those vintage EQs actually AB shockingly well against similar T-Racks and Waves plugins. I'll reach for Ozone and a few Neutron modules first if I have the CPU to handle it, but often times its a balancing act and certainly not above using Logic's wherever possible.. (FYI you can clip with Bitcrusher and PhatFX, sometimes I prefer Bitcrusher's attitude over 3rd party ones... While these are _hard_ clippers Overdrive can work as a soft clipper as well..)


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## Monkberry (Jun 6, 2020)

borisb2 said:


> How does Cubase stock plugins compare to Logic?
> 
> I‘m on Cubase and are still usIng some of their stock plugins - is that considered a no go? So far I‘m quite happy with the results (for orchestral stuff).. Only for reverb I invested in Lexicon Native bundle. Looking at Fabfilter often but so far didnt pull the plug.


I haven't used Logic since version 8 but the current Cubase stock plugins are great. I have my favorite 3rd party tools but I do use Cubase Frequency EQ and have used their utility delays and chorus on occasion. There stock compressors are also good. They have some quality plugins at this point.


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## robgb (Jun 6, 2020)

The last piece I did, I barely used any plugins. A bit of compression/limiting on the mix bus with Ozone 9 Elements, and a couple spots of EQ on an instrument or two. I'm finding that a lot of libraries are already optimized in terms of EQ and compression, and the only changes that have to be made are about creating cohesion in the final mix.

There was a time when I threw FX on every channel, but found that it's really better to take the simple route and only fix what really needs fixing.

For mastering (if you can call what we do mastering), I'd advise a small amount of limiting and only add EQ if you really, really need it. Find a nice transparent limiter you like and call it a day.


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## labornvain (Jun 16, 2020)

robgb said:


> The last piece I did, I barely used any plugins. A bit of compression/limiting on the mix bus with Ozone 9 Elements, and a couple spots of EQ on an instrument or two. I'm finding that a lot of libraries are already optimized in terms of EQ and compression, and the only changes that have to be made are about creating cohesion in the final mix.
> 
> There was a time when I threw FX on every channel, but found that it's really better to take the simple route and only fix what really needs fixing.
> 
> For mastering (if you can call what we do mastering), I'd advise a small amount of limiting and only add EQ if you really, really need it. Find a nice transparent limiter you like and call it a day.


I've been definitely heading in that direction. I now only put one instance of my rat pedal plugin on each track.

Seriously though, I found that most of the really good orchestral libraries are already pre-mixed so well that it's almost blasphemous to tamper with them.

I do, however, pay attention to frequency stacking or masking and will carve out a bit of space where there's too much build-up. This is a very common practice in pop and rock mixes. But I found that if you do it too much in an orchestral arrangement, it may sound clean and tight, but you really lose a lot of the body of the orchestra. A lot of the magic that comes from the wash of all the instruments and the Reverb swashing around.

If I do find too much build-up, usually in the low frequencies, I don't fix it with a static EQ though. I'll either use a dynamic EQ or the magical Wavesfactory Trackspacer plugin with sidechaining.


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## emilio_n (Jun 16, 2020)

I decided to keep using (and learning) the stock filters of Logic Pro until BF and let's see what offer they have at this moment. Thanks to all for your thoughts. Very informative thread!!


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