# How Important is a Headphone Amp?



## Thundercat (May 2, 2020)

Hey all,

I recently got a pair of Sennheiser HD6xx from Drop. I love them; super nice. I'm currently driving them with an Apogee Quartet headphone output. The sound is decent.

I've read widely about it and the consensus seems to be that a dedicated headphone amp will give a better soundstage, better detail at lower volume, and overall improve the sound. Especially when run balanced, although some will say that makes little difference.

Anyway, I was considering getting a Drop THX AAA 789. They jumped down to $300, and it will cost me about another $100 for the cables to make it balanced.

Does anyone have any experience in this area - would this be a good investment in my studio?

I realize I can just try out the amp and return it, which I might do, but it would be nice to hear from anyone who wants to share if this would make a noticeable and helpful difference in sound quality.

I just don't know how good the built-in Apogee headphone output is.

Thanks,

Mike


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## jneebz (May 2, 2020)

Can you elaborate on the sound is “decent?” I mean, I’m sure the Apogee is plenty to make those sound great.


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## sostenuto (May 2, 2020)

I have been searching intensely on this topic in recent weeks. I hesitate to speak about this specific choice, although I have read reviews, etc. Even if you go this way, I encourage you to look carefully at Schiit Audio as you decide. 


After this search, I chose Asgard 3 + Modi (dac) to drive new Beyer DT880 Pro 600-ohm. SA are reachable via: [email protected] and Daniel Katz has specifically helped notably as I weighed various options. Asgard 3 has ample power, BUT single-ended. It can also drive powered monitors from Pre-amp Out but at same time .... must choose headfones OR monitors, by unplugging headfones. At this cost <$400. with cables, I am quite happy with the choice. Check some reviews, as Schiit Audio pricing surprises compared with much more expensive options.

Also looked very hard at their Jotunheim, with balanced headfone drive, but not wanting to mod the DT880(s) at this point. With (2) Desktop PC DAW(s), will likely add Jotunheim + Bifrost dac in future. (after Dow climbs back out of recent pit !  )

Best of success with your final choices !


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## Thundercat (May 2, 2020)

Thanks Sostenuto and jneebz for your feedback; much appreciated!

When I say it sounds "decent," I mean just that - it sounds "fine." But since I don't have an amp to compare it to, I don't know what I might be missing. I don't know what I don't know. Maybe with an amp the bass would be beefier, or the soundstage larger, or?

I have looked at those Heresy Schiit amps; lots of people regard them highly. I thought they might be on a par with the existing output of my Apogee; at least that's what one poster stated on another site in passing.

So I thought getting a THX amp might be a good all-rounder. I suppose I won't really know until I bite the bullet and try it. At least Drop has a no-questions-asked return policy and I can try it for a couple weeks, although I'd still be out the $100 for the cables and also probably return shipping back to Drop.

As far as the Jotunheim, thing is my Apogee already has the built in DACs and it sounds very good to me. So I would be buying twice. And then I would think, well, with just a dedicated amp all I'm paying for is a great amp; with a combo unit there would be compromises in both compared to a dedicated unit. I would think I would get better SQ with just a dedicated amp. That's my thinking anyway.

In any case, many thanks again. I appreciate the suggestions and perspective.


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## Thundercat (May 2, 2020)

I've also considered a DIY unit like the Bottlehead Crack, but it looks so bulky and I wouldn't be able to stack things on it. Not sure how it compares to a unit like the THX 789 either. Sigh. It's all hit and miss isn't it, even with 10,000 reviews and opinions...


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## ryans (May 2, 2020)

My experience is most solid state headphone amps sound more same than different. If differences are there they are very very.. subtle. I don't think two different solid state amps should be giving you different soundstage.. unless one is broken... but that's just me.

My primary reason (from a mixing/neutral standpoint) for using a headphone amp is just the extra power.. mixing with quiet source sounds it's nice to have a ton of extra headroom... I have a thx aaa 789 and it's great and my schiit magni is great too..

Tube amps are a different story, they sound different for sure.. and in nice ways... but I wouldn't mix on one.

Ryan


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## Gerhard Westphalen (May 2, 2020)

The THX 789 is basically the best that you can get for clean. If you want more of a class A or tube sound then it's not for you but for studio use the THX is the best you'll get.

I use it for powering compression drivers in my speakers since I don't use headphones much. I have the Grace m900 and the headphone amp built in to a couple of RME interfaces and the THX is a big step up. You'll also never run out of power with it. If I used headphones more often I'd probably just use the Grace as a DAC and get another THX.

I considered Schitt for a while but after hearing some bad reviews I'm no longer interested in buying any of their products. They're nice but not the best. I don't remember exactly what the issue was but I put them on my do-not-buy list.


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## Thundercat (May 2, 2020)

Ryan and Gerard - thank you for your perspectives.

I’m curious Ryan as to how you came to own both the Schitt and the THX - were you somewhat dissatisfied with the Schitt?

thanks again!


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## sostenuto (May 2, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> Thanks Sostenuto and jneebz for your feedback; much appreciated!
> 
> When I say it sounds "decent," I mean just that - it sounds "fine." But since I don't have an amp to compare it to, I don't know what I might be missing. I don't know what I don't know. Maybe with an amp the bass would be beefier, or the soundstage larger, or?
> 
> ...



Just for the record _ when you pull up Jotunheim and its choices, it can be purchased bare of dac.
While the dac choices are capable, separate Bifrost is my ultimate dac in future.

Also, Schiit Audio has full 15 day money-back guarantee ..... in addition to 5-year warranty.


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## Thundercat (May 2, 2020)

sostenuto said:


> Just for the record _ when you pull up Jotunheim and its choices, it can be purchased bare of dac.
> While the dac choices are capable, separate Bifrost is my ultimate dac in future.
> 
> Also, Schiit Audio has full 15 day money-back guarantee ..... in addition to 5-year warranty.


It sounds like you really like the Schiit. What do you like so much about it?

Thx!


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## ryans (May 2, 2020)

No dissatisfaction with the schiit.. I still use it with my portable setup.. 

I also have smsl sap 2.. which I think I paid $50 (canada bucks) for a couple years ago and.. I would be afraid to do a blind test between the 3 amps... the little smsl has enough power to drive my higher impedance headphones (hd600, hd800s) and sounds pretty darn close... 

Ryan


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## TravB (May 2, 2020)

Once I realized I was spending much more time listening in headphones than my main monitors (out of necessity, working from home), I needed to be certain what I was hearing in my headphones was accurate. I chose the Sennheiser HD650 headphones for their audio quality and extended wear comfort, no regrets there, very satisfied with that choice. 

Regarding headphone outputs on most (not all) audio interfaces, they really seem to be just an afterthought by the manufacturers, employing inexpensive design/parts as they can get away with. After extensive research, I chose the Rupert Neve Designs headphone amp, again, no regrets, clear rich sound.

Equally important, of course is the source of the audio, which is being driven by a Lynx E22 audio interface providing outstanding DAC. For convenience and workflow, between the Lynx E22 and RNP headphone amp is a New Old Sound McOne-B Passive Monitor Controller. This extremely handy devices provides a large volume nob for easy studio volume adjustment, as well as switching between multiple sources and outputs(in my case switching the Lynx card outputs between my studio monitors and RNP headphone amp) and mono checking. Being passive assures no sound coloration.

And if that weren't enough, we know that no speaker system (including headphones) are perfect and can even have minute differences within the same model. To that end I also employ the Sonarworks headphone correction software -- and Sonarworks will even create a custom curve for your individual set of headphones!

And finally, let's not forget how the quality of our electrical systems can wreak havoc on sound quality. Any "junk" in the AC line (EMI/RFI) will just get amplified by speakers or a headphone amp. To that end I start at the wall outlet into a medical grade isolation transformer. From there AC runs to a battery backup with filtering, then to a Furman line conditioner that feeds clean/quiet power to all my studio gear.

So clean AC into a custom fast/quiet StudioCat PC running Nuendo/Sonarworks > LynxE22 > NOS McOne-B > RNP Headphone Amp > Sennheiser 650 Headphones ... I feel confident what I'm listening to is clean and accurate.

I guess the point of this to state the entire monitoring chain should be considered -- from the AC wall outlet to your ears.


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## sostenuto (May 2, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> It sounds like you really like the Schiit. What do you like so much about it?
> 
> Thx!



Envy those in locations, and contacts, to do desired A/B/C ....... comparisons. Once I started dialog with Schiit Audio's Daniel Katz, I received desired focus on every individual, nitpicky issue, as well as mention of virtually every product solution discussed here. NEVER a specific product critique, simply a spec comparison with Schiit Audio products relevant to my interests and stated needs. 

I am now totally convinced that my audio interface needs should be separated from important headphone needs. Hey ! .... absolutely open to objective, techy, discussion of Audio I/F 'Headphone' drive capabilities, but for now, quite unsure of what is offered as at top level of alternate (headphone preamp/amp/dac) potential. Nothing would be more desired, than clear, posted, spec posture, by top I/F providers ! 

Will be specific here ..... RME Babyface Pro FX priced at $899. no worries whatsoever re. home studio powered monitor drive. Headphones ???? No official, detailed statement re. driving 'mainstream' studio, monitoring, mixing, mastering, et al. When specs reviewed personally .... mostly uncomparable numbers versus critical measurements in similar terms. 

Bottom line ...... now elated with decision to separate headphone needs from other, typical home studio audio needs. Amazing improvements moving to dedicated headphone dac + amp ..... from motherboard Toslink digital audio source.


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## tav.one (May 3, 2020)

I'm driving my HD6XXs through Apogee Duet 2 and I'd also say they sound decent but don't have any reference point yet. If someone who has Apogee and has also tried a set of cans on a dedicated amp, can give their review, that would be awesome.


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## chimuelo (May 3, 2020)

Guys, I love my older AKG’s & HDs but let me sum it up without offending anyone.

These headphones were meant to please how many people with different hearing, and different physical attributes all in one size?

By all means, finish the journey, get all of the various components and then if you’re still wondering about another reference point that’s the time to break down, see an audiologist for silicon molds, then send them off to JHAudio and get the very best drivers and never look back.

Much better quality at half of the db/SPLs and they’re designed for YOUR ears, not the entire neighborhoods.

Research the owner, listen to his explanation on patents he owns too.
This is the guy who invented IEMs.

Screw treating yet another room.
Everyone listens to media on IEMs or Blu Tooth portables.
Jump into the times, one stop, mastering on the move. 

I actually drag a small rig and look out over Lake Tahoe.
No inspiration handcuffed to a desktop in some square room.


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## wst3 (May 3, 2020)

So you've certainly heard enough about the value of a good headphone amplifier by now, let me just add a couple thoughts...

First, "afterthought" is a strong term for built-in headphone amplifiers, and not entirely fair to many manufacturers. It isn't so much that they did not think about it, but rather that they are adding a power amplifier to a device that was otherwise not intended to deliver power. The voltage rails on most audio devices are already too low for a proper headphone amplifier, I'd argue they are too low to properly drive a line level signal, but that's a separate rant. Strike one. The current capability is also insufficient to drive headphones, related to strike one, but Strike two! And many of these devices are built to fit a small form factor, without the means to dissipate heat well. Strike three.

For casual use you can often "get away" with a built in headphone amplifier, but if you are using them for critical listening you will need something that is designed for that purpose.

I still have headphone amplifiers from Rane and Stewart Electronics, and that's what I use. Both of them drive every pair of headphones I've owned with ease, not quite nose bleed levels, but plenty loud enough, and with plenty of detail. They both occupy a single rack space, and they both require 120VAC mains. This allows them to address voltage, current and heat requirements.

There are, I'm sure, similar products with smaller footprints, I just haven't had the need<G>.

I was tasked with designing a headphone amplifier for a personal mixer system several years ago. I thought it would be the easy part of the job, but it turned out to be a real challenge. It took us a little over six months to come up with a circuit that sounded great and fit into the case, and most important, didn't break the bank. So it can be done. You may just have to hunt a little more. Used Rane and Stewart headphone amplifiers do show up on eBay and Reverb from time to time, might be worth looking.


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## Thundercat (May 3, 2020)

wst3 said:


> So you've certainly heard enough about the value of a good headphone amplifier by now, let me just add a couple thoughts...
> 
> First, "afterthought" is a strong term for built-in headphone amplifiers, and not entirely fair to many manufacturers. It isn't so much that they did not think about it, but rather that they are adding a power amplifier to a device that was otherwise not intended to deliver power. The voltage rails on most audio devices are already too low for a proper headphone amplifier, I'd argue they are too low to properly drive a line level signal, but that's a separate rant. Strike one. The current capability is also insufficient to drive headphones, related to strike one, but Strike two! And many of these devices are built to fit a small form factor, without the means to dissipate heat well. Strike three.
> 
> ...


Thank-you Bill. I suspected as much. I will update this post if/when I pull the trigger and share what I get.

I'm leaning towards the RNHP, but I'm concerned it's a little underpowered for my HD6xx cans, which are 300 ohm. 

Thanks all, and please share any other experiences too!

Best,

Mike


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## SupremeFist (May 3, 2020)

wst3 said:


> So you've certainly heard enough about the value of a good headphone amplifier by now, let me just add a couple thoughts...
> 
> First, "afterthought" is a strong term for built-in headphone amplifiers, and not entirely fair to many manufacturers. It isn't so much that they did not think about it, but rather that they are adding a power amplifier to a device that was otherwise not intended to deliver power. The voltage rails on most audio devices are already too low for a proper headphone amplifier, I'd argue they are too low to properly drive a line level signal, but that's a separate rant. Strike one. The current capability is also insufficient to drive headphones, related to strike one, but Strike two! And many of these devices are built to fit a small form factor, without the means to dissipate heat well. Strike three.
> 
> ...



That's really interesting! What would you say about Audient's claims here? 









Audient Headphone Amplifiers & Safe SPL Levels


The impedance of headphones can be a tricky concept to get your head around and many people are left wondering how much power is really needed to drive their favourite headphones. The impedance of...




support.audient.com





My personal experience is that my Id14 drives my K701s and HD6XX with masses of volume to spare. I haven't blind A/B'd it against a dedicated headphone amp but life is short and sound perception is notoriously bedevilled by voodoo and placebo so I probably won't.


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## Thundercat (May 3, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> That's really interesting! What would you say about Audient's claims here?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, not voodoo. It's not about how loud they can go. My Apogee can go very loud. It's about detail, clarity, sound stage, and other factors. It's about being able to hear the details of a mix better, and also to be able to mix at lower volumes and still hear everything clearly. I value my ears; I don't want to mix at louder levels. 

Until you hear the difference, you don't know what you don't know. I'm not inclined to just spend money, but I also know I'm not hearing the mixes the way they could be heard, and at the volume levels I'd like to hear them at.

Last year I got a pair of Yamaha NS10 speakers. Notoriously the worst speakers ever, but all studios have them. I also got a terrific power amp for them, and got it modded by Jim Williams.

That combination is nothing short of stellar. Jaw dropping the clarity, and sheer beauty, of the sound. I actually really enjoy them.

So I'm fully on board with external amplification.


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## wst3 (May 3, 2020)

I don't own either of the Audient devices, and can not comment on the accuracy of their claims for them, but dang, that is one very well written article. They took some liberties or maybe shortcuts with some of the math, but after a first read I did not spot any errors. I am really impressed, that shows a level of technical writing that has been absent from the market for a couple of decades.

My only (minor) gripe is that one needs to take sensitivity into account - what is the sound pressure level generated from a specified input (power or voltage)? They could have explained that in a little more detail, but I suppose they skipped over it because it is a function of the headphones, and not the headphone amplifier.

Thanks for pointing that out to me!


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## SupremeFist (May 3, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> Yeah, not voodoo. It's not about how loud they can go. My Apogee can go very loud. It's about detail, clarity, sound stage, and other factors.


Yes that's what people say, but I've never seen a convincing technical explanation as to why an interface headphone amp would _necessarily_ do this worse than a dedicated one, if it's supplying enough "juice".


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## Thundercat (May 3, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> That's really interesting! What would you say about Audient's claims here?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


+1 on the article - thanks for sharing! Very interesting!


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## peladio (May 3, 2020)

I have a good headphone amp (Rupert Neve) but not using it..my RME UC drives headphones just fine. Sound quality difference is negligible..don't fall for audiophile bullshit. As for the loudness..you don't want to blow your brains with loud listening on headphones unless you want lifelong tinnitus..and you don't..


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## vitocorleone123 (May 3, 2020)

Low quality power is better than high noisy power. Just as long as you pick a super clean amp (doesn't have to be "name brand") that's as good or better than your audio interface's headphone out plus more power, you'll probably enjoy it. I have a headphone amp on my wishlist, but many other things come ahead of it.


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## Instrugramm (May 3, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> Ryan and Gerard - thank you for your perspectives.
> 
> I’m curious Ryan as to how you came to own both the Schitt and the THX - were you somewhat dissatisfied with the Schitt?
> 
> thanks again!


I also own a Shiit Magni Heresy and a THX 789, it's simply a matter of your DAC, if you have a higher end DAC you'll want balanced outputs and then of course there are minor differences in sound but the Heresy is so clean, they're only noticeable if you actally switch between both of them.


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## wst3 (May 3, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> Yes that's what people say, but I've never seen a convincing technical explanation as to why an interface headphone amp would _necessarily_ do this worse than a dedicated one, if it's supplying enough "juice".


That's the catch! It is difficult (I'd argue nearly impossible) to provide sufficient power if you are running on a single-ended 5VDC power supply. The headphone amplifier I designed used a bipolar 18VDC supply with quite a bit of current capacity, and a discrete output stage, and I did not include the usual output protection capacitor and resistor, assuming that anyone who spent that much coin on a personal mixer system probably knew how to use it<G>... that was one of the more difficult decisions in fact.

If the interface has a proper power supply (at least bipolar 15VDC, bipolar 18VDC is better), and the power supply can provide the necessary current, and the output driver can source the necessary current then there is no reason it can't do the job. Those things add quite a bit of cost to the bill of materials, and therefore the product, so it is not a popular choice.


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## Thundercat (May 3, 2020)

TravB said:


> Once I realized I was spending much more time listening in headphones than my main monitors (out of necessity, working from home), I needed to be certain what I was hearing in my headphones was accurate. I chose the Sennheiser HD650 headphones for their audio quality and extended wear comfort, no regrets there, very satisfied with that choice.
> 
> Regarding headphone outputs on most (not all) audio interfaces, they really seem to be just an afterthought by the manufacturers, employing inexpensive design/parts as they can get away with. After extensive research, I chose the Rupert Neve Designs headphone amp, again, no regrets, clear rich sound.
> 
> ...


By the way Trav, do you find the RNHP has plenty of power for the HD650s? Do you have to have the volume at 3:00 or something to drive them?

Thx

Mike


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 4, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> Yes that's what people say, but I've never seen a convincing technical explanation as to why an interface headphone amp would _necessarily_ do this worse than a dedicated one, if it's supplying enough "juice".



^ this. I’ve been using a pair of HD600 plugged directly into an Apogee Element, pristine clarity and plenty of juice for sure. I’m sceptical that a high end amp would make any difference.


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## sostenuto (May 4, 2020)

Initial test of new DT880 Pro 600-ohm, with Schiit Audio Modi dac + Asgard 3 Preamp/Amp.
Asgard 3 has Gain Swith on front panel. High _ drives Eris E8 monitors or Hdfones waaay high and Volume Knob turned Down to ~ 20%. Low _ is fine, but Volume Knob turned Up near 80%. Eris E8 set at detent/mid poisition. High seems cool for these high-impedance Hdfones.

Seasoned ears make my impressions salient, yet hearing notably different, and better clarity, depth than from Audio I/F. All that counts here, and delighted with change ... at relative cost. of course YMMV. 

*PS* _ No way to compare to Apogee or Babyface, but total ~$400. (incl good cables) vs $600. to $800. This was 'hdfone-focused' purchase, and future system upgrades could well include newer, improved Audio I/F.


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## Jeast (May 4, 2020)

To the TS:
Are you sure you have hit the level of where there is nothing else to improve on in regards of composition, mixing, ear training for frequency problem recognition etc?

This is my very personal opinion, but be wary to not end up in GAS territory. Go to a store and do a blind test. You wil find that the headphone is such a coloring decice itself that it’s not a case of “what sounds good” anymore.A friend of mine is an EDM top-act in the Netherlands, he mixes on crappy monitors in a crappy treated studio room and makes a lot more than what I do, with all my expensive gear. Its all relative anyways. Almost no people have absolute hearing and need reference music to hear what they should be aiming for anyway. The other known GAS forum is filled with people trying to buy success with gear, never really hearing a difference (yeah maybe you can hear a difference but how do you judge if the difference is better or worse?) because thats easier than actually writing good music.

again, my very personal opinion, but unless you have absolute ears or way too much money, you definitely don’t need an expensive HP amp. Most people I know that are successful in music have never bothered even 10 seconds of their lives even thinking about such a device. I would dare to bet most on this forum would fail a blind test as well. (Not trying to sound harsh, just wanting you to save your money)

End of personal opinion


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 4, 2020)

Jeast said:


> To the TS:
> Are you sure you have hit the level of where there is nothing else to improve on in regards of composition, mixing, ear training for frequency problem recognition etc?
> 
> This is my very personal opinion, but be wary to not end up in GAS territory. Go to a store and do a blind test. You wil find that the headphone is such a coloring decice itself that it’s not a case of “what sounds good” anymore.A friend of mine is an EDM top-act in the Netherlands, he mixes on crappy monitors in a crappy treated studio room and makes a lot more than what I do, with all my expensive gear. Its all relative anyways. Almost no people have absolute hearing and need reference music to hear what they should be aiming for anyway. The other known GAS forum is filled with people trying to buy success with gear, never really hearing a difference (yeah maybe you can hear a difference but how do you judge if the difference is better or worse?) because thats easier than actually writing good music.
> ...



Not to derail this thread, but I couldn’t agree more. None of my colleagues have headphone amps for this purpose. If you have neutral headphones, and your interface has adequate power, it’s not necessary. Understanding your monitoring is what’s important, both monitors and headphones. Mixing with my HD600’s is wonderful; but it’s in a vacuum essentially, but a good place to start. Plus, every set of ears are different. I’m a long-time touring drummer, so my higher frequencies are diminishing in my left ear due to the hi-hats (despite wearing ear plugs for years). No headphones or amps are going fix this. But....I know how my mixes will translate in the real world and that’s the key. However, if having high-end audiophile peripherals truly helps someone, I can’t argue.


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## Thundercat (May 4, 2020)

I think we're losing the plot here.

I understand the value and importance of excellence in composition. I fully realize that a bad arrangement will sound bad, and a great arrangement will sound great. That was one of my "aha"s early in my career. I fully agree with these sentiments, hands down, spot-on.

But I didn't ask about better compositional techniques to make my mixes sound better. That is a different topic.

I asked specifically about headphone amps and how they might be of value in better hearing what you have already composed.

What is being missed by some recent posters is the very real issue that an underpowered headphone output will not allow you to hear your mix correctly. This is a real thing. Did you read Bill's post? Bill designed audio equipment. He said it's quite common for IF outputs to be underpowered and that affects the sound. You can argue with that if you want, but this was something he did professionally. I would think he would know.

As sostenuto recently posted, he is hearing better clarity and depth from his work now that he bought a headphone amp. That says it all too.

I also posted at the stunning difference an excellent amp made to shitty speakers. True story.

I realize GAS is a real thing, and I'm guilty like everyone. And it's quite often an excuse not to compose, or it's a diversion for sure.

In any case, peace folks, I appreciate your perspectives. But this has now crossed the line into voodoo, GAS, and audiophoolery rather than the very simple discussion of how a headphone amp could improve sound while mixing.

Best to all,

Mike

EDIT: this came out a little stronger than I meant it; I think I'm grumpy this morning. Apologies if I offended anyone. I do appreciate everyone's perspective.


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## crandallwarren (May 4, 2020)

Unless you’re doing really critical mastering or restoration work, I honestly wouldn’t bother with a third party amp. Or, unless you’re really interested in pushing the envelope for your own listening pleasure. But if it’s for work, I doubt the step up from the Apogee is worth it.

I own HD600s and I switch between my Metric Halo ULN, a JoeCo and the output on my laptop all the time. Honestly, the difference is pretty esoteric and never really gets in my way.

Also, for what’s it worth, most mixers would agree that headphones are not the best medium to judge a mix by. Myself, and most of the guys I work with tend to use headphones as an alternate reference and/or quality checking for errors.


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## PaulieDC (May 4, 2020)

Hey Mike, TBH, I'm answering this based on your first post, not really reading through the thread. Are you sure you need a headphone amp? The Apogee Quartet is a seriously good AI, output should be more than ample in volume and tone. I treated myself to HD650s two months ago and LOVE them after years of various closed back cans. I have an RME Babyface Pro and that combo with the 650s is great. The 650s are 300ohm. The output on your quartet is 30ohm with +19dbu max. My RME is 10 ohm with +13dbu max, so yours should have much more kick in the pants than mine and i can make my ears bleed and the sound is best I've gotten yet compared to 5 other pairs of closed back HPs. I supposed go ahead and try it, but get the headphone amp from a place with a great return policy.

Then again, someone may pop on and say that I'm missing half the aural universe by running my HPs straight from the RME, which means I might also be out another $400 right along with you, lol.


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## Thundercat (May 4, 2020)

PaulieDC said:


> Hey Mike, TBH, I'm answering this based on your first post, not really reading through the thread. Are you sure you need a headphone amp? The Apogee Quartet is a seriously good AI, output should be more than ample in volume and tone. I treated myself to HD650s two months ago and LOVE them after years of various closed back cans. I have an RME Babyface Pro and that combo with the 650s is great. The 650s are 300ohm. The output on your quartet is 30ohm with +19dbu max. My RME is 10 ohm with +13dbu max, so yours should have much more kick in the pants than mine and i can make my ears bleed and the sound is best I've gotten yet compared to 5 other pairs of closed back HPs. I supposed go ahead and try it, but get the headphone amp from a place with a great return policy.
> 
> Then again, someone may pop on and say that I'm missing half the aural universe by running my HPs straight from the RME, which means I might also be out another $400 right along with you, lol.


Hey Paulie and Crandall,

many thanks for your input. I do respect your experience and ideas. Perfectly valid.

I’m sure I could continue and things would be “fine” but I’m one that likes to know what I might be missing. Like you, I’m not sure because I haven’t experienced the difference.

I’ll post beck here after I get an amp and share my experiences, if I do go that route.

I realize mixing and mastering on headphones is not recommended, but I’m not able to setup my studio where I’m renting so headphones it is for now. (HD 6xx). And I want to produce high quality finished tracks. Can you see why it’s critical that my headphone experience be accurate, and not just “good enough”? It’s definitely “good enough” right now that I think I’m hearing everything, but what if I’m not?

that’s why it’s critical to me to know if I’m hearing everything.

again thank you each and all for your input.

if anyone has anything else to add please chime in.

Best to you all,

mike


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## rhizomusicosmos (May 4, 2020)

The THX AAA 789 has been measured and reviewed here with glowing results:








Review and Measurements of Massdrop THX AAA 789 Amp


This is a review and detailed measurements of the just Massdrop THX AAA 789 headphone amplifier. It was drop shipped by request of a kind member for testing. It retails for USD $349.99. The unit had a log gestation period with customers having to wait months to receive the first allotment...




www.audiosciencereview.com





The reviewer did some subjective auditioning with the HD-650 and said:
"This combination provided incredible level of transparency. I could set the volume level high and hear the slightest amount of background noise in recordings! It was so good that variations in fidelity of the source was more apparent than I had ever experienced."

Whether it is better, subjectively, than the Apogee headphone out is another matter. The specifications of the THX 789 (including an output impedance of <1 Ω) mean that they will likely drive a wide range of headphones very effectively. This might be a consideration if you later decide to use other pairs of headphones with different impedance and sensitivity ratings.


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## sostenuto (May 4, 2020)

Followed that review and pestered Schiit Audio for comment. Inappropriate to quote or re-phrase, but confident with decision to continue on with Schiit Audio alternatives. Little doubt THX AA 789 are providing effective results for many users.  

Endless variations, and personal choice to stay with single-ended headphones. For balanced fones, plenty of time now to sort legitimate modding and likely improvements vs risks. Convinced power to new 600-ohm Fones is more than adequate with Asgard 3.


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## Thundercat (May 4, 2020)

I appreciate the many suggestions and sharing of experiences. I am leaning towards the THX 789, or if I find a good deal on the Rupert Neve I'll probably go for that since that also gets nothing but rave reviews by professionals (except from Amir lol). But I've read testimony after testimony about that particular amp too.

What I don't easily find is what I'm asking about here: what is the subjective difference between using your headphones with a computer Interface (IF) or Soundcard headphone out, vs using a dedicated amp? Are you sorry you bought the amp? How has it affected your workflow or your final results!

Thanks kindly,

Mike


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 4, 2020)

How serious you are about headphone amps depends on how serious you are about listening on headphones.

My main criterion is that they get loud enough to power my AKG K240Ms, which are 600Ω, without turning into distorted mush. I don't really care about tweak quality for this application.

But then I'm happy as a clam sitting on a plane listening to Bose Quiet Comfort 3s plugged into an iPad - not audiophile-level, just enjoyable.

You - I, anyway - am able to tune out the sound quality when I'm not listening for it. Well, up to a point.


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## Thundercat (May 4, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> How serious you are about headphone amps depends on how serious you are about listening on headphones.
> 
> My main criterion is that they get loud enough to power my AKG K240Ms, which are 600Ω, without turning into distorted mush. I don't really care about tweak quality for this application.
> 
> ...


Yes, makes sense. When I want to release a title on a music library, however, I very much want to make sure I'm listening for the quality.

I'm dying to get a Bottlehead Crack! But I think this would not be a good investment for making music; just for listening!

Thanks Nick!


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## TravB (May 4, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> By the way Trav, do you find the RNHP has plenty of power for the HD650s? Do you have to have the volume at 3:00 or something to drive them?
> 
> Thx
> 
> Mike


For me, the RNHP has enough power for the HD650s, but it does need to be turned up quite a bit. But even at full volume, the RNHP doesn't break up or even begin to lose audio fidelity. I could see where it may not be enough for someone who likes to get really loud in their headphones.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 4, 2020)

I should add that I my headphone amp is a DIY kit from PAIA Electronics (from when the late John Simonton was there), designed by Jules Ryckebusch (sp?).

That was when I was at Recording magazine and we ran an article on it. Perquisites.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 4, 2020)

Hah. And there it is (although they're out of stock):






Product Detail - PAiA - DIY Music & Sound Electronics Kits - Synthesizer, Theremin, Studio







www.paia.com


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 4, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> When I want to release a title on a music library, however, I very much want to make sure I'm listening for the quality.



You’ll get great quality directly from your Apogee to your nice headphones. Adding the amp with provide negligible improvements...if any.

Edit: you are probably a veteran at this, but your headphone mix is only one part of the mixing/mastering process. Ultimately, studio monitors (if available) should be the “surgical” reference point. And of course, consumer grade sources such as car stereos, iPhones, etc.


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## Thundercat (May 4, 2020)

Excellent points everyone. Trav, thx for your expertise with the exact gear I’ve got and am contemplating.

I guess the thd numbers are not the end all be all for evaluating gear.

Nick, I do like to DIY so thx fir the links.

Wolfie, a veteran I am not, but I do know to listen to the tracks on multiple speakers. Thx for the reminder.

I can see consensus is clearly divided between “do with what you have” vs “an amp is very helpful”.

thx all.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 4, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> Nick, I do like to DIY so thx fir the links.



That unit is really more for powering a bunch of headphones if you're recording an ensemble than for audiophile sound.

Mine powers four pairs, it turns out, but the one they have on the PAiA site powers six. I assume it's the same otherwise.


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## Instrugramm (May 5, 2020)

Honestly, a good quality dac/ amp/ headphone combination sounds so much better than most people would dare to believe. So many users in this forum use HD600s or HD6XXs without remotely knowing their true potential. I just got a Topping D90 MQA and once again I feel like it's the first time I'm listening to music. Although I admit, that this does unfortunately drastically reveal the noise floor of a lot of vsts...

Ps. My favourite pick for solid state amps: THX 789/ 887 or if you're on a budget Magni Heresy all the way.


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 5, 2020)

Instrugramm said:


> Honestly, a good quality dac/ amp/ headphone combination sounds so much better than most people would dare to believe. So many users in this forum use HD600s or HD6XXs without remotely knowing their true potential. I just got a Topping D90 MQA and once again I feel like it's the first time I'm listening to music. Although I admit, that this does unfortunately drastically reveal the noise floor of a lot of vsts...
> 
> Ps. My favourite pick for solid state amps: THX 789/ 887 or if you're on a budget Magni Heresy all the way.



I have tried a few amps (in the shop) with my HD600, I heard zero difference between that and directly out of the Apogee Element. That doesn’t mean there’s no difference, but my ears couldn’t hear it. It will be different with everyone of course.


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## onebitboy (May 5, 2020)

PaulieDC said:


> The output on your quartet is 30ohm with +19dbu max.


That impedance is way too high for a headphone output and can cause audible changes in frequency response.


Thundercat said:


> What I don't easily find is what I'm asking about here: what is the subjective difference between using your headphones with a computer Interface (IF) or Soundcard headphone out, vs using a dedicated amp? Are you sorry you bought the amp? How has it affected your workflow or your final results!


My interface simply can't drive my headphones at loud enough levels. Using a headphone amp is the only viable option for me.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 5, 2020)

onebitboy said:


> That impedance is way too high for a headphone output and can cause audible changes in frequency response



I've never stopped to think about how it works with outputs, but the famous AKG K240Ms are 600Ω. They do that on purpose, so you can power a series of headphones.


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## wst3 (May 5, 2020)

onebitboy said:


> That impedance is way too high for a headphone output and can cause audible changes in frequency response.


I think this is a case of "it depends"... if the source impedance is 30 ohms, and the headphones are 300 ohms or higher the impedance mis-match will have very little effect on frequency response. It becomes voltage transfer at that point. Which is why they use dBu to specify max output, except for headphones we are not all that interested in voltage transfer, we need power transfer.

Maximum power transfer - with minimal FR problems - happens with matched impedances, at which point you throw away "only" half the available power. And yet modern systems still depend on a low source impedance driving a load impedance that is at least 10 times higher. And that can work well, and includes a benefit where the impedance doesn't have to match exactly (and never will anyway!)

Hence the "it depends".


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 5, 2020)

Bill, could you explain that for people like me whose knowledge of electronics is much lower than our opinions of ourselves?


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 5, 2020)

You also have to consider modern technology. Take the HD 600 for example; when they hit the scene back in the 90’s, there were no audio interfaces (Like we have now), so you needed something to drive them. Most of today’s interfaces have more than enough juice, so it’s really a non-issue in the big scheme of things.


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## sostenuto (May 5, 2020)

Wolfie2112 said:


> You also have to consider modern technology. Take the HD 600 for example; when they hit the scene back in the 90’s, there were no audio interfaces (Like we have now), so you needed something to drive them. Most of today’s interfaces have more than enough juice, so it’s really a non-issue in the big scheme of things.




Great point and top providers of Audio I/F(s) would do well to revisit this. They could add updated statements aimed for popular studio headphones (especially 200-600 ohm) and driving them with their Headphone Out. 

*@ wst3* post starts along these lines and top providers can surely tout this aspect of their I/F(s) with more techy detail.


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## Thundercat (May 5, 2020)

It just seems like the thread has become polarized. Those who believe their I/F outputs are just "fine", and those who have used dedicated output amps who claim a difference. And neither side hearing the other.

At some point it becomes about "belief" rather than objective experience, and that's OK. To each his/her own.

There was a famous story about two men who spoke about a subject. One said, "it seems we are speaking along parallel lines."

The other man brightened and said, "why yes! I'm glad you agree with me!"

The first man said, "no, I do not agree. We think along parallel lines. Which means our ideas will never meet."

I thank you all for your experiences.

Mike


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 5, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> At some point it becomes about "belief" rather than objective experience, and that's OK. To each his/her own.



You asked for objective opinions and you got them 

I gave you my opinion based on experience, not belief (as did others). There’s no right or wrong answer, just do what works for your situation. For shits and giggles, let us know your listening results when you get the amp.


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## Thundercat (May 5, 2020)

Wolfie2112 said:


> You asked for objective opinions and you got them
> 
> I gave you my opinion based on experience, not belief (as did others). There’s no right or wrong answer, just do what works for your situation. For shits and giggles, let us know your listening results when you get the amp.


And I’m grateful for your experiences!

We’ve just had from people saying their IF outputs are “fine” and “powerful enough” without actually having compared to using an amp, in some cases. But you did try both - perfectly valid, and helpful.


when someone posts they had a big improvement with an amp and someone else says it’s rubbish, no difference (even without having tried both) then we lose objectivity.

but as I said - it’s all fine. So thx all.


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## rhizomusicosmos (May 5, 2020)

Experience is seldom objective unless you are dedicated to minimising bias. I would suggest the best approach is to use objective data to steer you towards candidates and then make an informed subjective decision about what seems best to to you. And as @wst3 says, "it depends".

Some subjective experience of mine:

I routinely use Beyerdynamic DT-880 Pro (250 Ω) with the headphone output of an RME UFX at work and have little to complain about. The biggest benefit was adding Sonarworks to "correct" some of the shortcomings of the headphones.

At home, I am using DT-880 600 Ω headphones usually straight out of an M-Audio interface. It does the job but I know these headphones can sound more dynamic with a decent amp so probably the interface's HP amp is not the best. When I want more isolation I use a pair of ATH-MSR7s which are only 35 Ω but these aren't always pleasant for long periods and seem to be more sensitive to amplification choice.


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## Thundercat (May 5, 2020)

I appreciate your response rhino. Genuinely helpful.

I think Bill's comment is out of context, if I understood correctly. Bill was not saying it depends if a headphone amp is helpful - the was replying to a technical question about headphone impedance.

Anyway I appreciate your thoughts. Thanks.


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## onebitboy (May 6, 2020)

The problem with your question is that the answer is dependent on which interface and which headphones you actually use. With some headphones, an amp is a necessity on most interfaces. With other headphones, it isn't. Others' experiences are not helpful to you unless they use the exact same interface and headphones.


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## Thundercat (May 6, 2020)

onebitboy said:


> The problem with your question is that the answer is dependent on which interface and which headphones you actually use. With some headphones, an amp is a necessity on most interfaces. With other headphones, it isn't. Others' experiences are not helpful to you unless they use the exact same interface and headphones.


Good point. Thx.


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## wst3 (May 6, 2020)

Before I try to address Nick's request (which is going to take some time) let me just add one important detail to help explain my answers.

I spent time designing analog audio circuits for a handful of companies. During that time I had the opportunity to see what other companies were doing.

As I am not the last word in analog audio circuit design, let alone business practices for the MI space, I am not going to name names of companies that I think took shortcuts. I have opinions, some would say strong opinions, about the value of a properly sized power supply, properly balanced inputs, requirements for noise immunity, etc. I've been at this for a long time, and I've been fortunate to have some really brilliant mentors.

So yes, I do look down - from a purely technical perspective - on designs that copy the chip manufacturers reference design unless there is a really good reason to do so - That Corp's InGenius chip reference design can not - near as I can tell - be improved upon. Every converter chip I've worked with did provide the opportunity to improve upon the reference design.

Yes, I definitely look down on the practice of trying to squeeze proper line levels from a circuit running from a single 5V supply - it can not be done. One of those laws of physics sort of things.

Yes, I grow very frustrated with people that do not understand the difference between dBu or dBV and dBFS, and don't really understand why dBFS is an incorrect use of the dB. That last part is inconsequential.

And people that do not know the difference between twisting a pair of wires and shielding a wire also make me a little nuts, although on this count I am more forgiving, it is a bit tricky.

I'm a curmudgeon I guess? Which is why I try to weigh in on some of these threads.

TL;DR - it is certainly possible, through great trickery, to design a headphone amplifier that runs off a 5V supply. I have not yet heard one that sounds good enough for critical listening, but it may exist. To me, simple minded old fart that I am, it is far easier to use a headphone amplifier that is designed to drive any load, and that starts with a beefy power supply. The rest - FET vs Bipolar discrete vs integrated circuit - will all affect the sound, but different is more appropriate than "better" or "worse".


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## wst3 (May 6, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Bill, could you explain that for people like me whose knowledge of electronics is much lower than our opinions of ourselves?


I can, I think? (and love the way you presented the question!) It will take more than a few minutes, since there is a lot of groundwork to present, or maybe not?

Is there something specific that piques your curiosity? Or are you testing my writing skills once again<G>???


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## sostenuto (May 6, 2020)

Hate to see main purposes of this Thread lost or started all over again in future. OTH, mainstream hardware providers capabilities ( or lack thereof ) will need to be discussed in relevant detail. If those providers can be encouraged to Post here, in response to User questions, that could be a very good thing. 

@ onebitboy comment is correct, which opens Pandora's Box to wide range of Audio I/F, Headphone Amp, Headphone providers. OTH, many are investing notable dinar and perhaps receiving far less than desired/expected results. What a cool thing if endpoint could be 'accurate' matrix of these items showing some 'acceptable' level of compatibility. Oops !! ..... another rabbit hole.


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## Thundercat (May 6, 2020)

I think Bill's response very much is in line with the direction of the thread. I'd love to hear more detail about what goes on under the hood. Helps inform choices.

For the record I looked at the PSU for my Apogee Quartet. It's rated 12V at 2.5A, so not too shabby. No way to know how that power is allocated of course, and Apogee is famous for keeping tight wraps on schematics (as are many manufacturers).

Thanks for all the great sharing. Each and every one.


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## sostenuto (May 6, 2020)

Target I/F: RME Babyface Pro FS. Just checked posted, detailed spec, in their site. Numbers I see do not seem comparable to Apogee Quartet number posted. Since I raised this specific hardware, can anyone 'comfortably' add helpful detail _including @ wst3_ 






Babyface Pro FS | High-end USB Audio Interface - rme-usa.com


RME Audio Professional Live, Studio, Recording and Broadcast Solutions. Unrivalled Quality, Performance & Stability MADI Interfaces, Converters & Preamps.




www.rme-usa.com


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## Thundercat (May 6, 2020)

sostenuto said:


> Target I/F: RME Babyface Pro FS. Just checked posted, detailed spec, in their site. Numbers I see do not seem comparable to Apogee Quartet number posted. Since I raised this specific hardware, can anyone 'comfortably' add helpful detail _including @ wst3_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here's a quote of the headphone out specs:


> *ADI-2 Series Headphone Power*
> The two headphone outputs, offering TRS and mini-jack sockets in parallel, have completely separate driver stages to perfectly match low and high impedance headphones, guaranteeing pristine sonic results no matter what type of headphone is used.
> The 3.5 mm TRS phones output power rises to 90 mW. THD of both phones outputs improved by up to 10 dB. and uses same output op-amps as ADI-2 Pro now. Finally the output impedance of 3.5 mm TRS was lowered from 2 Ohms to 0.1 Ohms.



I have read extensively in the last couple weeks. The designer of the Monotor claims that a headphone amp does not need to provide more than 100mW of output, if properly designed. Contrast that with the THX 789, which puts out much, much more power, especially if balanced.

Also, output impedance is very low on the Babyface, which if I understand correctly is a really good thing.

By my reckoning, that Babyface may have a decent quality of output based on power specs alone. But I haven't tried it, and ymmv.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 6, 2020)

wst3 said:


> Is there something specific that piques your curiosity? Or are you testing my writing skills once again<G>???



Well, I don't have enough electronics knowledge to follow your post - but I am still interested.

And actually that's one of the things I want to learn more about during the pandemic. As it is I know just a little less than enough to be dangerous - like how to replace caps on a circuit board, what the symbols in a schematic mean and how to follow the path, that kind of thing. 

But I don't know enough to understand what's doing what in anything very much more complicated than a series Christmas tree light circuit.


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## PaulieDC (May 6, 2020)

Yikes. I'm one of those without a super high knowledge of how all the impedance/output thing works, so I have a question that relates right back to the original post, and another that may come into play:

I have an RME Babyface Pro, driving Sennheiser HD650s. They sound better to me than any PreSonus interface I used to own, driving ATH-M50Xs. LOVE the RME/650 combo. *Do I need a headphone amp?*
I saw an earlier post about 5V not being enough power for something somewhere. I'm running the RME bus-powered on an MSI Gaming Motherboard with a 1000w PSU. Apparently dedicated power is preferred. *Do I need an RME Power Supply?*
Probably the answer to both "No, you don't NEED them but things would sound a lot better if you did". I'm particularly interested in the power supply question. Is buss power ample with a gaming-level rig?

Yes, this post sort of summarizes the OP...


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## onebitboy (May 6, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> Here's a quote of the headphone out specs:


That quote is absolutely useless. And the slightly more detailed data on the "Specs" page isn't very helpful either because it doesn't mention at what impedance the interface outputs 60/90 mW (which is rather low anyway).


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## onebitboy (May 6, 2020)

PaulieDC said:


> Is buss power ample with a gaming-level rig?


If you only use it for gaming and the headphones are loud enough for you... sure. If you actually use it for mixing/mastering too, you should at least try a headphone amp.


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## sostenuto (May 6, 2020)

PaulieDC said:


> Yikes. I'm one of those without a super high knowledge of how all the impedance/output thing works, so I have a question that relates right back to the original post, and another that may come into play:
> 
> I have an RME Babyface Pro, driving Sennheiser HD650s. They sound better to me than any PreSonus interface I used to own, driving ATH-M50Xs. LOVE the RME/650 combo. *Do I need a headphone amp?*
> I saw an earlier post about 5V not being enough power for something somewhere. I'm running the RME bus-powered on an MSI Gaming Motherboard with a 1000w PSU. Apparently dedicated power is preferred. *Do I need an RME Power Supply?*
> ...



Yea !! Good to hear, as nicely focused for my interests. OTH ... I just went with Schiit Audio - Modi DAC + Asgard 3 driving new Beyer DT880 Pro 600-ohm. Sounds really good coming from ASUS MB Toslink Out to Modi DAC. 

If I could just try RME Babyface Pro FS for an hour or so in my environment .... easy-peasy, right ??  Just as it would be so cool for you to do same with hdfone amp of choice for your own comparisons. THX much for posting !!


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## sostenuto (May 6, 2020)

onebitboy said:


> That quote is absolutely useless. And the slightly more detailed data on the "Specs" page isn't very helpful either because it doesn't mention at what impedance the interface outputs 60/90 mW (which is rather low anyway).



.... and I posted the spec reference mainly because I found nothing to reassure for my needs.
OTH .... just purchased Schiit Audio - Asgard 3 spec is: Max Pwr: 600 ohms: 30mW RMS per channel. and yes, it can drive ot damaging-pain levels. Touch as heck to go for RME ~$900. without solid _directly comparable_ specs.

*Note:* Even with new HDfone, very interested in 'balanced' set. Seems the most popular studio models must be modded ??


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## Thundercat (May 6, 2020)

onebitboy said:


> That quote is absolutely useless. And the slightly more detailed data on the "Specs" page isn't very helpful either because it doesn't mention at what impedance the interface outputs 60/90 mW (which is rather low anyway).


Hello - politeness please. I did't attack you; I'll thank you to show me the same respect.

This is the specs I found. They may be "absolutely useless" to you, but others including myself may find them helpful. It's not on me to provide you with the specs you want. If you want to contribute to the information, please do.

Please only add to this post if you are going to be civil and also advance the understanding of the thread.


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## onebitboy (May 6, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> Hello - politeness please. I did't attack you; I'll thank you to show me the same respect.


That was a complete misunderstanding. Sorry! I didn't mean to attack you at all. What I meant was that the data in your quote is of no use (because 90 mW doesn't mean anything without stating the impedance, and because "improved by up to 10 dB" is equally meaningless without any frame of reference). Me saying "useless" only referred to the content of that quote itself, not to you quoting it in the first place  Sorry again.


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## sostenuto (May 6, 2020)

onebitboy said:


> That was a complete misunderstanding. Sorry! I didn't mean to attack you at all. What I meant was that the data in your quote is of no use (because 90 mW doesn't mean anything without stating the impedance, and because "improved by up to 10 dB" is equally meaningless without any frame of reference). Me saying "useless" only referred to the content of that quote itself, not to you quoting it in the first place  Sorry again.



No problem as you advise. Not the proper place to raise this here ..... but a bit displeasing when some of the very best in this industry have succumbed to 'wording/phrasing' specs, such that comparison is quite a chore ? How about a bit more honesty and clarity from the 'admired' top providers in this product segment !! Oh oh ... here come the 'specification police'  
Please don't suggest that these respected and trusted providers really want to help consumers by offering easily comparable specs, in some sort of 'standard' terms.  

'Information' rules .... fairly obvious we ( investors ) need much more !


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## Thundercat (May 6, 2020)

onebitboy said:


> That was a complete misunderstanding. Sorry! I didn't mean to attack you at all. What I meant was that the data in your quote is of no use (because 90 mW doesn't mean anything without stating the impedance, and because "improved by up to 10 dB" is equally meaningless without any frame of reference). Me saying "useless" only referred to the content of that quote itself, not to you quoting it in the first place  Sorry again.


No, my bad. I get what you meant. Thanks for clarifying. And, you're right, without having the impedance of the headphones, the wattage rating itself is all but meaningless.

Thx for your kindness.

Mike


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## PaulieDC (May 7, 2020)

onebitboy said:


> If you only use it for gaming and the headphones are loud enough for you... sure. If you actually use it for mixing/mastering too, you should at least try a headphone amp.


Right, only mix/mastering, I'm not a gamer. I'm still trying to determine if I would achieve "better audio" if I plugged the Babyface Pro to AC power, not running it off my USB port. Or is power irrelevant?


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