# A world gone crazy (albion cinebrass)



## Darkforest408 (Dec 28, 2012)

https://soundcloud.com/jsum-3/a-world-gone-crazy


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## dgburns (Dec 29, 2012)

I like it.I would encourage you to go even farther and make it even more frenetic if you wanted to.Nice feeling of swirling and would work well in a scene where the camera is wildly circling the actor(s)


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## Darkforest408 (Dec 30, 2012)

Thanks. I had a image of a swirling camera in my head as well.


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## José Herring (Dec 30, 2012)

In a world gone crazy, people get a couple of orchestras in a box and think that they are composing music, especially after they add a few drum hits.

In all seriousness though. You really need to figure out the basics of what is harmony and what is a musical line, then move on up from there to learn how best to orchestrate those elements. 

I'm not saying that you have to be academic about it, but I am saying that you at least have to learn the basics of a musical language before you start getting your music to a public. Just having a few libraries these days isn't enough, because quite frankly everybody has the same things. So think, what's going to separate you from the pack?

But, I will give credit for the fact that at least you're not just ripping off some other composer's work. It does seem to be original. But, it needs to be more intelligent.


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## Darkforest408 (Dec 30, 2012)

thanks for the feedback! I don't understand what you meant by more intelligent. 

I wish I had the time to do more reading or maybe learn more. Maybe you can recommend some books that I should read?

I do this stuff for my own personal enjoyment. I definitely recognize that i'm not very good at this, that's why I am in a profession that is not related to music. as far as my music being "public"... what's the worse that is going to happen? In all honesty, no one is going to listen to it besides me.


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## José Herring (Dec 30, 2012)

Darkforest408 @ Sun Dec 30 said:


> thanks for the feedback! I don't understand what you meant by more intelligent.
> 
> I wish I had the time to do more reading or maybe learn more. Maybe you can recommend some books that I should read?
> 
> I do this stuff for my own personal enjoyment. I definitely recognize that i'm not very good at this, that's why I am in a profession that is not related to music. as far as my music being "public"... what's the worse that is going to happen? In all honesty, no one is going to listen to it besides me.



I hadn't really realized that you're more of an enthusiast rather than a budding professional. Sorry about that. There are so many people that are trying to be composers that come through here that haven't even taken the time to do anything other than buy some libraries. Then ask for help. I guess I just lumped you into that category.

there are books. Probably more confusing than helpful at this stage for you.

My advice would be to sit at a keyboard and just start striking keys on a piano patch. It will become pretty apparent what is a good sound and what is a bad sound. Learn to form chords learn how those harmonies turn into music. What is an accompaniment, what is a melody what is a bassline and what is it suppose to do.

A lot can be figured out by ear rather than diving into books. Do that, then get into books. But if you don't do that first the books are at best confusing, at worst completely misleading.


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## Darkforest408 (Dec 30, 2012)

i have played piano for a long time. 


I do understand scales, harmonies and melodies, but I don't understand how to "orchestrate" that nor I have a grip on color.

When I write stuff, sometimes, I don't want to be constrained by theory and I make things that sound bad, frankly. 

I appreciate the feedback.


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## dgburns (Dec 30, 2012)

Darkforest408 @ Sun Dec 30 said:


> i have played piano for a long time.
> 
> 
> I do understand scales, harmonies and melodies, but I don't understand how to "orchestrate" that nor I have a grip on color.
> ...



Some people get a lot of joy creating music-until someone says it's bad.Then you have a choice,take it to heart and improve,or let the criticism stop you from the joy you had in the first place.We are all learning,and I suppose humility comes from time and wisdom in applying yourself.Funny,but the more you learn,the more the world opens up,and you get to see a wider vista then you thought possible before.Do not get discouraged.


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## José Herring (Dec 30, 2012)

Darkforest408 @ Sun Dec 30 said:


> i have played piano for a long time.
> 
> 
> I do understand scales, harmonies and melodies, but I don't understand how to "orchestrate" that nor I have a grip on color.
> ...



Having come from a performing background I can say this, one might be able to play scales, harmonies and melodies without really understanding them, where they fit and how they work. 

There are two ways to think about theory, one is limiting, and the other increases understanding. Limiting way would be to think of theory as a set of rules to be followed. I've made this mistake and it's really bad. Really, really bad. As the "rules" were usually created by music theorist that never could write or even play music well, impressing on the world their ignorance in a set of "thou shall not" type rules.

If you do study more, the "thou shall not" rules are pretty easy to spot. They all go along the same line, "thou shall not use parallel 5ths", "thou shall not double the third" that type of crap.

The other type of music theory increases musical understanding. That kind of music theory is not easy to find, but usually comes from composers who themselves have written notable works. It leads to a better understanding of how harmony works and how harmony is coordinated with acc and melody. 

Same is true for orchestration. 

In short if I've ever read a book it's always been from some notable composer who could actually write music and never from a music theory person.

But in truth, one score is worth 1000 books. 

The biggest advances I've made in music have been from just studying some music scores that I thought well of, and trying to figure out why the composer made the choices he did. And if you do that, you'll be surprised at how clever some of these guys were.


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## michaelv (Dec 30, 2012)

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## YoungComposer (Dec 30, 2012)

I cannot agree more with Josejherring. I am rather self-taught with some basic theory. But from the most part I listened and listened....and listened some more. It's the best advice I or anyone can give. 

Learning on my own from ear has enabled me to truly dissect and learn from other composers. I found that for the most part I didn't even need the score if you listen enough times. 

Find a piece you like and listen to it many times, then try and specifically listen and analyze the music into dived parts. I.e. Listening or harmony, then listen and study the counterpoint, then listen for the orchestration, and so on.

This is my method but by no means am I an authority (I have only been into film music for a year or so, and just beginning university).

Find what works for you!


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 30, 2012)

I certainly don't agree. You cannot give advice to someone as if this is THE WAY to learn music. First of all, there is not one great composer who has not gone through the so called crap parallel fifth rudiments, even Stravinski before he tore it apart. For me, it was the best thing that happened, and it totally opened my harmonic sense, until then I had a very poor harmonic language. I believe Rossini, or maybe it was another great composer, who started composing and then after hearing some Mozart, he decided to study harmony seriously. Of course, we don't all want to become Rossinis, but I'm totally against the idea of dismissing something that has been working successfully for centuries. Harmony rules are based on Bach's harmonic language which is the highest point and beauty in harmony, and then extended to more modern chords, jazz..., so with a good teacher, one should become sensitive to these rules the same way as he would enjoy a Bach piece.

Studying scores is of course highly important as well, however, they compliment each other, not one replace the other. Ear training is very important too, for that matter, being able to hear in your head these chords. It's this melting pot of all this that will give you sufficient tools to write and orchestrate comfortably. I don't believe in miracle methods and short cuts, some things you just have to go though the process, it's as simple as that. It is certainly true that some people learn all this stuff in a cerebral way and cannot connect with what this is all about, there could be numerous reasons for that, and many are just not cut out for that, we have to accept this fact. But does does not mean the method is crap. Not sure by skipping this stuff you'll be able to study a JW score. And I don't want to burst anyones bubble here, but trying to look at this realistically.


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## dgburns (Dec 31, 2012)

josejherring @ Sun Dec 30 said:


> In a world gone crazy, people get a couple of orchestras in a box and think that they are composing music, especially after they add a few drum hits.



um........if we all look hard in the mirror,doe this not resemble practically every working/aspiring composer in the biz...?

in fact,I'm not sure if taking in a fee and syncing the resultant music to a given film makes it less a fact either,btw.


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## dgburns (Dec 31, 2012)

michaelv @ Sun Dec 30 said:


> Hello, Mr. Darkforest. You are a very gracious and humble person, in the face of some extraordinary, unfounded and unjustifiable arrogance and discourtesy presented to you as "advice". My suggestion would be to heed the fact that not everybody on this forum is qualified



please let me know if I'm being fingered here.If you present such a statement,you might need to be specific.If it is me,I will simply say IMDB me. David G Burns.Or check out my page on Core Music Agency under David Burns.

Frankly I'm startled by this.


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## michaelv (Dec 31, 2012)

I was not referring to yourself, Sir. I'm sorry, I though it was obvious from the post to whom I was alluding.To avoid causing further confusion and offence I removed my post. 

I'm sure as Hell not going to get into trouble at the expense of somebody else's ill-conceived indiscretions.


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## José Herring (Dec 31, 2012)

michaelv @ Mon Dec 31 said:


> I was not referring to yourself, Sir. I'm sorry, I though it was obvious from the post to whom I was alluding.To avoid causing further confusion and offence I removed my post.
> 
> I'm sure as Hell not going to get into trouble at the expense of somebody else's ill-conceived indiscretions.



My post wasn't at all ill conceived. The guy is clearly having problems. My advice was to learn to apply a little bit of musical common sense. 

How in this day and age that comes across as arrogant is very telling.

Yes, let's all be musical idiots!!

As for Guy Bacos. Sorry, the rules are crap. Bach didn't even really follow them. You can pick up a piece of music he wrote and tell he had a different set of rules than the blind counter point that we were all taught in school. I even read a book where he openly criticizes it. Why people still teach Fux is beyond me. Studying a higher level of voice and voice leading would be way more useful and open the composer up to a whole lot more music than what Fux intended. I mean Fux even criticized instrumental music as inferior. On top of that he wasn't even a good composer.  

And Micheal v. Calling me unqualified is just arrogant on your part. You may not like my music, but unqualified I am not.

And with that. 

I'll let you people fawn over how "wonderful" this guy's music is when clearly he needs a lot of work. But, far be it from me to say so. In this day of the ignorant composer. Let ignorance reign. And let's follow all the rules, no matter how limiting they are, because by golly, somebody said we should.


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## dgburns (Dec 31, 2012)

michaelv @ Mon Dec 31 said:


> I was not referring to yourself, Sir. I'm sorry, I though it was obvious from the post to whom I was alluding.To avoid causing further confusion and offence I removed my post.
> 
> I'm sure as Hell not going to get into trouble at the expense of somebody else's ill-conceived indiscretions.



ok,i understand now.In fact,I also checked out some of your stuff Michael.nice my friend.keep up the good fight!

As for removing your post,I'm sorry you did that.

as for Mr Sunshine,The reason I posted was to encourage the composer to continue.Frankly,I could pull off a pretty cool score from his sketches.I think anyone here could.I'd like to see a certain Mr Verta ,or a certain Mr. Bacos, or anyone else with chops show what a good arranger could do with the raw clay provided.

Is there not a certain value in being able to see not only what is there...

BUT WHAT COULD BE.

Is this not what a good composer does...sees a blank canvas and fills in the blanks.

try being nice for a change.I feel I learned the hard way that whenever I flung dung,it always seemed to fly back in my face.that is,until I learned I didn't like the taste.People like being around positive helpfull honest hardworking chaps.it gets you hired sometimes too.but then maybe you are humming along just fine.

and yes I am talking about mr Herring here.

just my two cents
david


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 31, 2012)

josejherring @ Mon Dec 31 said:


> As for Guy Bacos. Sorry, the rules are crap. Bach didn't even really follow them.



Not sure where you are getting that information. The harmony rules are based on Bach's music, the culmination of harmony, at least a good and complete Harmony Treaty, and this makes absolute sense, it didn't come from Krypton. I don't know what book or mean teacher you had, but it seemed to have traumatized you for good. And I'm certainly aware that Bach himself occasionally did parallel 5t, but Bach was also an outstanding academic! You are giving me the impression that your harmonic notions are limited when you insist on that and seem to enjoy finding a few exceptions and putting down what's proven effective. If you prefer to learn everything from scores, than good for you, but it's not right to influence others in doing the same thing when you could be totally wrong about this, or at least start you post by saying: "In my opinion".

Also, Michael V may be a bit sharp in his comment, but as Zimmer would say, (speaking of someone else), he's a damn fine composer and one of the most creative minds on this forum.


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## José Herring (Dec 31, 2012)

Guy Bacos @ Mon Dec 31 said:


> josejherring @ Mon Dec 31 said:
> 
> 
> > As for Guy Bacos. Sorry, the rules are crap. Bach didn't even really follow them.
> ...



Yes Guy we should follow the books and neglect the actual music. That's totally ridiculous. As are the written rule books. 

What's important is the congruity of the line, the smoothness of the voiceleading. And not whether there are parallel 4ths or 5ths in the part writing or doubled 3rds or anything else that's taboo.

Any of the "rules" as based on Bach are just poor interpretations of his works by musical minds that were less than stellar, namely, music theorist.

I had no composition teacher. I'm self taught. So your assumption of me being "traumatized" is incorrect. Other than having this very same argument over and over again. This is traumatizing. :lol: 

I challenge anybody to find any great work, where the "rules" were not completely obliterated in the first 16 bars.


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 31, 2012)

Ok, I didn't know Mr. josejherring held the absolute truth about music education. Now I feel my education was all wrong, I wish I had you as a mentor growing up, I would of learned music the "correct" way. The forum should be honoured to have someone with such high intelligence as you. 

Thank you for enlightening me. :roll:


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## José Herring (Dec 31, 2012)

Guy you follow such a predictable path. When ever somebody has a opinion counter to yours you fall back on sarcasm and insults.

Oh and there is no absolute truth. Only relative. And relatively speaking, the composer's own works are more valuable than a few rules jotted down in books.

Now to be fair, there are some books that do have some good knowledge. But without a doubt they came from working musicians that actually could do what they teach and not some obscure music theorist that history has forgotten.

Take care.


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 31, 2012)

The reason I fall into sarcasms, is that you are not willing to simply accept that this is YOUR opinion, but keep insisting on being right. So it's my way of saying, goodbye, I need to move on to other things. And it's the idea that you are influencing others, so can't you just say, "In my opinion?" Already a few people on this thread don't back you on this. Noticed?


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## George Caplan (Dec 31, 2012)

Darkforest408 @ Sun Dec 30 said:


> i have played piano for a long time.
> 
> 
> I do understand scales, harmonies and melodies, but I don't understand how to "orchestrate" that nor I have a grip on color.
> ...



i think youre doing alright and im in the same boat. this orchestration thing is a bit of a mystery here too. i understand it but struggled at first to actually do it. i still dont do it well but orchestrating is just like actually playing and practicing at it a lot.


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