# Writing knowing you'll throw it away



## Llama Butter (Feb 14, 2019)

Like the title says, every so often I'll sit down and tell myself "I'm going to write for however long, and when I'm done I'll hit delete". I consider it an exercise in not being precious about material.

I got the idea to do this while reading The Sandman comic series, one of the characters has a library of every book that was never written. 

I know it sounds silly but I really think it makes me more creative and a better composer. Do any of you have similar ideas you incorporate into your process?


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## Parsifal666 (Feb 14, 2019)

Llama Butter said:


> Like the title says, every so often I'll sit down and tell myself "I'm going to write for however long, and when I'm done I'll hit delete". I consider it an exercise in not being precious about material.
> 
> I got the idea to do this while reading The Sandman comic series, one of the characters has a library of every book that was never written.
> 
> I know it sounds silly but I really think it makes me more creative and a better composer. Do any of you have similar ideas you incorporate into your process?



Sandman is excellent, my ex actually hired Vince Locke for her project.

Exercises are essential in one's comprehension of melody, harmony, counterpoint..._everything_. My problem? I have tons of exercise projects I need to delete (probably because more than a few ideas I come up with for exercises turn into something good). I delete exercises about half the time (probably need some anti-clutter training).


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## bryla (Feb 14, 2019)

Why do runners run every day knowing it's not a race?


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## MartinH. (Feb 14, 2019)

Llama Butter said:


> Do any of you have similar ideas you incorporate into your process?



Not sure I ever did that intentionally, but it makes a lot of sense. I'll try it out some time.


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## R. Soul (Feb 14, 2019)

bryla said:


> Why do runners run every day knowing it's not a race?


Deleting your compositions is more like competing in the NY marathon, only to quit half way, just because participating is more important to you than finishing.

I'm not precious about my tunes, but I really don't see a point deleting them when they could provide me an income.


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## bryla (Feb 14, 2019)

Because practicing the skill is more important than the product. Sorry if I wasn't clear.


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## Gerbil (Feb 14, 2019)

I often mess around re-orchestrating things on paper while eating lunch or whatever, just for fun. Can't say I compose with an eye to never seeing it through though.


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## Wall Art Music (Feb 14, 2019)

This reminds me of a book I saw in a music store, called something like "How to write better music". Normally I wouldn't pay much attention to a book like that, I assume that it's mostly fluff. But I flipped through it and was reading a chapter that said, go ahead and try to write a bad song. Intentionally write something awful. 

The idea was that when we're trying to write big, epic, and awesome we trip ourselves up because nothing is ever that good when you just start it. End up not happy with anything you write. But trying to write bad music saves you from your own expectations and releases you into just having fun with it.

I ended up not buying the book, but I always remember that thought. What you're saying is kinda similar.


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## Desire Inspires (Feb 14, 2019)

R. Soul said:


> Deleting your compositions is more like competing in the NY marathon, only to quit half way, just because participating is more important to you than finishing.
> 
> I'm not precious about my tunes, but I really don't see a point deleting them when they could provide me an income.



Yeah, don’t delete anything. Finish it up and send it off somewhere.


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## Ledwick (Feb 14, 2019)

I absolutely agree, Llama. Writing pieces simply to practice is essential. It improves skill. I write everyday, I don't write 365 songs a year. I have a folder with hundreds of practice sessions for reference. It's the same for any musician who plays everyday. Composition doesn't always improve craft because sometime it moves too quickly, whereas practicing allows one to slow down the process, since achieving a finished result isn't the goal, learning is, and this allows one to focus on specific technical and theoretical elements to improve ones own ability.


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## Parsifal666 (Feb 14, 2019)

The main problem with saving _*every*_thing is clutter. I usually try to be honest and ask myself if I really will ever take the time to open the project again.


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## Ledwick (Feb 14, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> The main problem with saving _*every*_thing is clutter. I usually try to be honest and ask myself if I really will ever take the time to open the project again.


True, I render practice tracks to wav files for future reference and delete the associated projects, while saving only projects of songs I plan to finish. Making the distinction ahead of time is usually necessary.


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## Akarin (Feb 14, 2019)

I go in the complete opposite direction: whether it's a test, a sketch, a fun activity, I always find a usable part in it that I spend 30 mins to mix and master...

...and then dump on Pond5 and Audiojungle.


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## Ledwick (Feb 14, 2019)

Akarin said:


> I go in the complete opposite direction: whether it's a test, a sketch, a fun activity, I always find a usable part in it that I spend 30 mins to mix and master...
> 
> ...and then dump on Pond5 and Audiojungle.


I wonder whether that's the reason the market is over-saturated? Because people "dump" 30 minute compositions on music selling sites. It's interesting to think about. Do you make money from them?


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## BeneJ (Feb 14, 2019)

I have a folder (actually an album on my iTunes) where I save all my 30 second~2 minute practise pieces, which I usually spend about 3~4 hours on whenever I have time. I number them, rename them Sound Test 89 etc and load them into my iTunes so I can listen to them on any device. These are all the musical equivalent of thumbnail sketches which, after having been properly archived, I will eventually go back and listen to afresh.
I’m inexperienced and have only generated about 2 hours of ideas this way, but it feels like a body of work nonetheless. 

I like the idea of trying unexpected techniques to improve composition and I recognise that knowing the piece will never be heard could inject a greater sense of freedom into the creative process. However, I feel like if I worked hard on it, I would want to hear it again!

However, I have spent countless hours at the piano, improvising and turning over ideas without any intention to retain or repeat anything. I have found that to be a valuable technique that improves composition. I consider this the same thing but without developing carpel tunnel syndrome in persuit of microeditting velocity values and having nothing to show for it!


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## Ledwick (Feb 14, 2019)

BeneJ said:


> ...a body of work nonetheless...


I agree, I consider my folder of practice tracks a documentation of my progress and it's interesting to see how my work has developed. It's similar to how some artists keep books of sketches. 


BeneJ said:


> ...countless hours at the piano, improvising and turning over ideas without any intention to retain or repeat anything...


I too improvise on the guitar and piano often. It's all good practice. 


Akarin said:


> ...whether it's a test, a sketch, a fun activity, I always find a usable part in it that I spend 30 mins to mix and master...
> ...and then dump on Pond5 and Audiojungle.


I think that's useful too, since mixing and mastering a track to a finished state helps develop certain skills and improves ones ability to achieve a mix closer to perfection, rather than the relaxed rendering of practice tracks.


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## Desire Inspires (Feb 14, 2019)

You guys shouldn’t be deleting anything. At least render it to WAV and save it in a cloud database. You could end up with enough material to bundle together and sell as a sound library for other people to use. You could be making money from those noises!


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## Akarin (Feb 14, 2019)

Ledwick said:


> I wonder whether that's the reason the market is over-saturated? Because people "dump" 30 minute compositions on music selling sites. It's interesting to think about. Do you make money from them?



If people listen to something I put on there and think it's worth money, I don't see how the saturation comes into play. There are libraries with a lot more quality material that are less saturated. It's a choice that I have as a composer and that people have as customers. I often hear the "saturated" comment from people not having sales.
I make money that is on par with the time I spend on it (aka "not that much"), an average of $80/month.


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## Akarin (Feb 14, 2019)

Ledwick said:


> I think that's useful too, since mixing and mastering a track to a finished state helps develop certain skills and improves ones ability to achieve a mix closer to perfection, rather than the relaxed rendering of practice track.



That. I just take the extra step of uploading it somewhere rather than let it die on my disk.


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## Ledwick (Feb 14, 2019)

Akarin said:


> That. I just take the extra step of uploading it somewhere rather than let it die on my disk.


I usually soundcloud mastered nuggets. I'll have to check out audiojungle and pond5.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Feb 14, 2019)

I never do anything knowing it's a throwaway thing or half-assed. I try to make anything I write percious to me.

Many truly nonsensical, nihilistic and plain dumb platitudes have been relentlessly circulated around so many times for so long by non-creatives, hacks and businesspeople that it's hard to do away with them from the public conscience. Less is more, kill your darlings, the happy medium, etc. Obnoxious!


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## Ledwick (Feb 14, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I never do anything knowing it's a throwaway thing or half-assed. I try to make anything I write percious to me.
> 
> Many truly nonsensical, nihilistic and plain dumb platitudes have been relentlessly circulated around so many times for so long by non-creatives, hacks and businesspeople that it's hard to do away with them from the public conscience. Less is more, kill your darlings, the happy medium, etc. Obnoxious!


Wow, you must be the real deal.


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## MisteR (Feb 14, 2019)

I just wrote a friendly response to this thread and then I deleted it. Does that count?


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Feb 14, 2019)

Ledwick said:


> Wow, you must be the real deal.



You'll get over it and carry on, eventually.


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## Dave Connor (Feb 14, 2019)

Brahms would practice writing counterpoint and then crumple up the paper and throw it away. It's an exercise that he valued and anyone who's tackled counterpoint can relate I'm sure.


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## Ledwick (Feb 14, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> You'll get over it and carry on, eventually.


what are you talking about?


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Feb 14, 2019)

Ledwick said:


> what are you talking about?



Obviously about your pointless previous comment. Do you have anything constructive I can help you with?


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## Ledwick (Feb 14, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Many truly nonsensical, nihilistic and plain dumb platitudes have been relentlessly circulated around so many times for so long by non-creatives, hacks and businesspeople that it's hard to do away with them from the public conscience. Less is more, kill your darlings, the happy medium, etc. Obnoxious!


^constructive?


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Feb 14, 2019)

Ledwick said:


> ^constructive?



So you don't like my viewpoint, or perhaps failed to understand the point. That doesn't make it invalid. As already pointed out, I'm sure you're gonna be fine.


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## Ledwick (Feb 14, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> So you don't like my viewpoint, or perhaps failed to understand the point. That doesn't make it invalid.


Intriguing. Isn't your message basically saying you don't like other people's viewpoints so they're invalid? 


Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Many truly nonsensical, nihilistic and plain dumb platitudes have been relentlessly circulated around so many times for so long by non-creatives, hacks and businesspeople that it's hard to do away with them from the public conscience. Less is more, kill your darlings, the happy medium, etc. Obnoxious!


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Feb 15, 2019)

Ledwick said:


> Intriguing. Isn't your message basically saying you don't like other people's viewpoints so they're invalid?



You'll just have to find the strength to live with it. I see that you've come here to bicker and squabble for no reason and it bores me.


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## Ledwick (Feb 15, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> You'll just have to find the strength to live with it. I see that you've come here to bicker and squabble for no reason and it bores me.


I'm willing to listen to your views without arguing. Maybe you could elaborate on what "nonsensical, nihilistic and plain dumb platitudes have been relentlessly circulated around so many times for so long by non-creatives, hacks and businesspeople that it's hard to do away with them from the public conscience". We have no need to bicker or squabble about anything, just elaborate about what you where referring to. I'm genuinely wondering what you're talking about.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Feb 15, 2019)

Ledwick said:


> I'm willing to listen to your views without arguing. Maybe you could elaborate on what "nonsensical, nihilistic and plain dumb platitudes have been relentlessly circulated around so many times for so long by non-creatives, hacks and businesspeople that it's hard to do away with them from the public conscience". We have no need to bicker or squabble about anything, just elaborate about what you where referring to. I'm genuinely wondering what you're talking about.



Well what I mean is that a lot of odd and counterproductive platitudes keep floating around artistic endeavors, and many of them seem to have been perpetuated by non-creative people, and many of them seem to aim to "educate" artists into bridling their instincts and drive and de-emphasizing and undervaluing their work.

There's no good reason to ever throw away one's work or approach it with a self-depreciating attitude. I would never write something with the mindset of planning to throw it away afterwards. Why? Why aren't we supposed to be "precious about our material"? It makes absolutely no sense. The whole nature and essence of "fine works" (art, creativity, etc.) is "preciousness". To me it seems very much like a conditioning that industrialists, suits and other non-creatives came up with. No artist should aim to learn to view their work as mere "items" or "assets".

The artist's job is to be thoughtful, daring, curious. One shouldn't allow to be talked out of that. There's a senseful middle ground between the innate "duty" of the artist and meeting the needs of the project. But finding it must not start with false and demonstrative humility on the artist's part.


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## Will Blackburn (Feb 15, 2019)

I like to keep everything. The amount of times ive hated one of my compositions at the time of writing only to hear the mixdown weeks/months later, ears fresh, and like it.


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## Ledwick (Feb 15, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> ...many of them seem to have been perpetuated by non-creative people, and many of them seem to aim to "educate" artists into bridling their instincts and drive and de-emphasizing and undervaluing their work...
> ...To me it seems very much like a conditioning that industrialists, suits and other non-creatives came up with. No artist should aim to learn to view their work as mere "items" or "assets"...


Makes sense. Art is now a commodity, it's a business, it's a machine and each artist contributes a piece to the grand scheme... samples, loops, background tracks etc. Assets and educators provide instant gratification to new naive unskilled artists, advertising to them the reward of accomplishment, when in reality, it's the assembly of a collage. Contrarily, I've seen composers on the VI forums who's tracks are amazing unique stories crafted with care and dedication. Though, for the unseasoned, hopefully the assembly line is simply a jumping off point from where they rise above the game to experience the freedom and reward of creation.

Part of that freedom, however, I believe, is the freedom to explore certain skills, rhythms, harmonies, melodies, sound combinations, orchestrations etc without being bound to mastering a final "product". A "result" isn't necessarily a "product". Yet both are useful. Other times, it's important to achieve a goal without giving up. Both are true. And in both instances, what matters most is focus. Even when cobbling gears to facilitate a machine, with focus one can learn much and move forward. It all has the potential to work.

Regarding the selling of practice tracks, to each his/her own. I tend to give away tracks I spent only a day creating and selling songs I spend a week on. That's just me. When Picasso was famous and he didn't have money on him, he'd draw a sketch on a napkin and sell or trade it for whatever he needed. There is no wrong way. Unless you're Annie.

[Edit] Not to beat a dead horse... one more real world example. Yesterday, during the course of writing these messages, I created 2 tracks. The first was a stereotypical trailer track, where instead of creating anything original, I focused on mixing it to the best of my ability, trying to create the most "professional" sound possible. The next was a video game soundtrack song I created to send to a developer for an indie game jam. 

The trailer track I upload privately to my soundcloud where it will remain for reference because it "sounds" cool, however there is nothing unique or special about it, so I won't show or sell it. It was a learning experience to improve my mixing ability. The video game song has a different kind of utility, created specifically to collaborate in a practical setting. Different expectations, yet both useful learning experiences.


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## Llama Butter (Feb 16, 2019)

Y'all have given me a lot to think about, I'll add this though re: pond5 and audiojungle

There's a Conan quote I like, something like: "There's more noise than there's ever been, but you have a bell that only you can ring, keep ringing that bell and one day someone will ask what that sound is." 
For me, throwing away work so the good things can be polished is a part of my process of finding my "bell" 

Ultimately I guess being precious about work or throwing it away is arbitrary but it's fun to talk about. Leonard Cohen wrote many iterations of a song while Bob Dyland would knock it out of the park on the first try.


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## MartinH. (Feb 16, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> The artist's job is to be thoughtful, daring, curious.


I thought that's _exactly _the point of such excercises?!

For me there's often some inverse proportional relation to how good I _want _something to turn out and how good it actually does turn out. Expectations can be a a very destructive force. If you're unphased by such things, then more power too you. But just honing your craft for the sake of improving, with no goal or pressure of sharing or preserving that work has been done by most artists that ever lived... it's just part of practice, and that has nothing to do with any platitudes imho.


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## mikeh-375 (Feb 17, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> I thought that's _exactly _the point of such excercises?!
> 
> ........ But just honing your craft for the sake of improving, with no goal or pressure of sharing or preserving that work has been done by most artists that ever lived... it's just part of practice, and that has nothing to do with any platitudes imho.



So true Martin. Doing exercises are also an opportunity to explore and be adventurous - occasionally it might be instructive to push boundaries and even break the rules you are practising to see where it leads, only occasionally mind if you are still learning, because the rigour is instructive and essential too. There is no harm done by refusing to be bound up now and again though imv...a bit like flexing one's imagination, which also needs practice.


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## Leandro Gardini (Feb 17, 2019)

I understand that trowing away your hard work may teach you not to be so precious about your creation but I don't get how it can make you a better composer.
To me it has been an unestimated exercise going back to my old projects and improving them. Not to mention that you can always submit them for licensing.


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## Saxer (Feb 17, 2019)

I don't throw things away by choice... but I don't save all little mockup tests where I try new sounds or layers combinations. I wouldn't call that composing.
I have a non structured "Collect" folder where I save late night ideas or little groove/bass line snippets, orchestration test runs, chord progressions... things like that. Sometimes I open those files and mostly close it again very fast. But sometimes it's a trigger for a new song. Same with all the little lines of written music lying on the piano. I actually don't really care about. It's like dust. It appears while live goes on. When it's too much I remove it.


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## Desire Inspires (Feb 17, 2019)

Give me your scraps. I'll make something out of them!


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Feb 17, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> I thought that's _exactly _the point of such excercises?!
> 
> For me there's often some inverse proportional relation to how good I _want _something to turn out and how good it actually does turn out. Expectations can be a a very destructive force. If you're unphased by such things, then more power too you. But just honing your craft for the sake of improving, with no goal or pressure of sharing or preserving that work has been done by most artists that ever lived... it's just part of practice, and that has nothing to do with any platitudes imho.



I have stuff lying around that didn't turn out too well. Working on some of that did have educational value, even if the results sucked. Some other stuff was just frustrating.
It sits on a drive somewhere, reminding me of what I can and what I can't do.

But it takes a conscious effort and a few mouse clicks to delete something you worked on. Don't see the educational benefit there.


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## dgburns (Feb 17, 2019)

Daniel Lanois records everything, just sayin’....


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## Will Blackburn (Feb 17, 2019)

Watch a film/docu etc, anything that gets you in a particular mood. Improvise on the Piano while you're watching it. Pretty much guarantees you will subconsciously write outside of your usual style. Totally forget Cubase is even open but it's recording everything via Retrospective Midi. Listen back the next day and let the inspiration flow. It's almost like crate digging!


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## VinRice (Feb 17, 2019)

I'll keep everything that is a definite musical 'object' even if its' just 10 secs; BUT the biggest the change recently is that when in the process of writing I'll just throw away lines that aren't working rather than trying to massage them into fitting. It's a confidence thing - 'that's crap, throw it away and do the line better'


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## NekujaK (Feb 17, 2019)

The best compositional exercise I ever undertook was to write and finish one track every day for a month, with the following conditions:
- Spend no more than 2 hours writing/arranging/recording
- Send the finished tracks to friends
The second point is important to stay focused on writing music that is somewhat "listenable".

At the end of 30 days, I ended up with about a dozen tracks that were either usable as is, or worth expanding on. The rest ranged from mediocre to bad, the worst of which, I discarded.

Since I was producing daily with nothing at stake, I felt free to experiment with different sounds and musical styles, exploring synths and instrument libraries I had previously ignored or only dabbled with. I learned a lot along the way. There was no time to get overly attached to the pieces, so letting go of the bad ones was easy.


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