# Which flagship orchestra to pick? (solved: thanks everyone for your kind suggestions and comments!)



## RogiervG (Dec 25, 2021)

Hi there,

So i can invest around 2K euros (little more, but well, if it isn't needed, all the better  )

I want a complete orchestra from one vendor/developer for workflow sakes.
And i want top tier sound, no more investing in low to midrange products.
No looking back at all the libs i have, but starting over so to speak.

So having done listenings to all kinds of orchestras, i came to these three below.
However, it's hard to really know the pro's and con's of them compared to the others.

Use: composing/producing music like Hans Zimmer, John Williams, Enio Morricone, etc etc those blockbuster composers music, Especially those from the classic movies from the 80's, 90's.
But also classical music (less filmic)

Option 1:
OT Berlin Series SINE editon is available for 2297 euro incl. vat.
Strings, woodwinds, brass and percussion.

Option 2:
VSL synchron series with vouchers use, i could also come a long way with a complete orchestra for around the same amount.
With vouchers i can get 2400 worth for paying 1800 euro
I could get e.g. synchron brass, synchron woodwinds, synchron percussion 1, synchron strings 1, harp. however, is it useful to add synchron strings pro? (costs with synchron strings 1 only 195 extra)
or is elite strings a better choice? or is elite alone good enough? not sure on that..
Note: it is all the standard version with the close, mid and tree mics (as i saw in the mic picture)


Option 3:
i could go e.g. Spitfire audio SSO Chamber Pro + AROOF (for extra punch here and there) + Solo violin and chello = 1886 euro incl. vat
Note: i have JB percussion already (to cover percussion)


Question is.. which option would you pick, and well.. why ofcourse. (and are there cons to the coice? weak points e.g.)
I choose these three options, because of sonics (room information, quality etc).
Yes Cinematic studio series is there also, but i the worklfow is not my things. (and i have css)


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 25, 2021)

I have option 3, and it's the basis of my template. I find it flexible and efficient, and I like the sound. AROOF is very nice both on its own and for sketching, supplementation. 

I also have Berlin Strings from option 1, and while they are quite nice, they remain fiddly compared to programming SCS. Some folks struggle with the Sine plugin.

I am a bit surprised that CSS/CSB/CSW is not one of your choices, since it seems the favorite around these parts.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 25, 2021)

FYI Synchron Elite Strings is a smaller string section size compared to Synchron Strings Pro. Even VSL suggests Elite or Pro vs. Synchron Strings 1 (which you should remove from your list IMO).

VSL has excellent quality and an excellent player. Do you like the sound? That will matter down the line. I think their Synchron series are really wonderful. Great company, great support.

Berlin has a beloved sound (by many), but SINE is not a great player comparatively. The QA is also hit or miss for their Berlin ports. Whether the company can get their act together is very much TBD. So far, the signs have not been promising.

Spitfire has THE sound IMO. Scripting and editing can be hit or miss at times, but they're getting much better with the AR series. Overall, I think the libraries are supremely usable. They also keep fixing and updating their libraries, even ones that are 10 years old. Great overall company IMO - the dominant developer by far. Their samples are all over professional work out there.


----------



## from_theashes (Dec 25, 2021)

If I had the money, I would go with SSO Chamber Edition… if that Air Lyndhurst-movie-blockbuster-sound is the sound you are looking for, nothing can beat it tbh.


----------



## filipjonathan (Dec 25, 2021)

Why not CS series?


----------



## Laurin Lenschow (Dec 25, 2021)

How important is time to you? 
Spontaneously I would have said go with the Berlin series. I have the Woodwinds and they are stellar, all the other ones seem to be really good as well. However, the SINE versions currently don't receive a lot of love around here (I have the Kontakt-version of BWW, so I can't comment on that), so you might want to be careful. 

So, if you want to have that comprehensive high-end orchestra _at some point _(rather than within this year) I have two other ideas:

1. Wait for Spitfire's Modular Orchestra to come out. 
I think it's save to say that the full orchestra will be priced above 2k, but then again you still have time to save up even more. I don't expect the first module to be released before ~September 2022 and it will probably take them at least 2-3 years to release all modules (this is all speculation of course). The modular orchestra will be their new flagship line of orchestral sample libraries, and therefore Spitfire's reputation will be tied to its quality and to how well it is received. They will really try to surpass all other devs with this one, and considering their history, experience and size I think it is relatively save to say that the Modular Orchestra will be pretty much the best orchestral library available (and eye-watering expensive).

2. Wait to see what ProjectSAM is working on. 
A dev that is not as often talked about as the ones you listed is ProjectSAM. If you want to buy a product that will still receive updates, additions and improvements years down the line, buy from them. I don't know if you followed this, but Symphobia 1 is now 13 years old, still sounds fantastic and just received a major overhaul that is free for all existing users.
There is not much information available yet, but they dropped some hints that they are working on a more comprehensive orchestra with more articulations and control over individual sections. Admittedly this is a shot in the dark, but ProjectSAM libraries generally have a gorgeus tone and very consistent quality, so this might be something to look out for.


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 25, 2021)

filipjonathan said:


> Why not CS series?


Well, somehow i have a hard time using css, and since the consistency of the other libs from the series, they (i guess) will have the same issues for me. 
It's the latency/delay that annoy's me, sound is good though, don't get me wrong. 
That's why i seek for another developer's top tier.


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 25, 2021)

Laurin Lenschow said:


> How important is time to you?
> Spontaneously I would have said go with the Berlin series. I have the Woodwinds and they are stellar, all the other ones seem to be really good as well. However, the SINE versions currently don't receive a lot of love around here (I have the Kontakt-version of BWW, so I can't comment on that), so you might want to be careful.
> 
> So, if you want to have that comprehensive high-end orchestra _at some point _(rather than within this year) I have two other ideas:
> ...


Yes, modular orchestra, i will eventually get ofcourse.. but i want something "now".. meaning not waiting months. So i don't think this modular one will be soon (like you, i think i can be a long time)
Isn't projectsam all about ensemble libraries? I seek more control: sections, solos. 
E.g. with spitfire i also added aroof, along with SSO Chamber pro, because i noticed SSB hasn't got the loud dynamics, while aroof does (judging my ears here).. so both are are recorded in a large room/stage, and have quite a bunch of mics, i think they will match good enough.

So i am not looking into ensemble libs, as an orchestra.


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 25, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> FYI Synchron Elite Strings is a smaller string section size compared to Synchron Strings Pro. Even VSL suggests Elite or Pro vs. Synchron Strings 1 (which you should remove from your list IMO).
> 
> VSL has excellent quality and an excellent player. Do you like the sound? That will matter down the line. I think their Synchron series are really wonderful. Great company, great support.
> 
> ...


Seriously? VSL themselves are advising not to buy that strings 1? but pro. Pro has a smaller install size, and lesser articulations as i see in the matrix? Why is it that they advise pro over 1? 

Overall, i have seen many renders (on youtube e.g.) done with the mentioned libs from VSL, and they all sound good. Different than the other two options ofcourse.. but still good. (more classical)

Berlin Sine edition, yes, i noticed the "complaints", by those who have the kontakt version too.
Not sure, if it's nitpicking though. Not sure if it's solved (in part) already? (day one bug fixes etc)
The tone is also classical.

Spitfire indeed has a filmic sound character, but lesser so a classical. Not sure if it will be an advantage or a con on the longer run. I guess you can, with added reverbs, make a classical sounding lib more filmic.. than the other way round... not sure again.. if that's true.


----------



## Frederick (Dec 25, 2021)

I have all three the options and I think you cannot go wrong with wichever of those three options you choose. I agree with ALittleNightMusic's view.


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 25, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I have option 3, and it's the basis of my template. I find it flexible and efficient, and I like the sound. AROOF is very nice both on its own and for sketching, supplementation.
> 
> I also have Berlin Strings from option 1, and while they are quite nice, they remain fiddly compared to programming SCS. Some folks struggle with the Sine plugin.
> 
> I am a bit surprised that CSS/CSB/CSW is not one of your choices, since it seems the favorite around these parts.


Yes, Spitfire indeed has the filmic sound. However, i hear things about inconsistencies? (e.g. SSB and SSW) not sure how hard it is to work around it?
What do you mean with fiddly (berlin)? 

As for CS series not included, see my other comment


----------



## Frederick (Dec 25, 2021)

Synchron Strings I didn't convince, despite the very deep sampling - a lot of dynamic layers and RR's doesn't necessarily translate into a good library. They've learned from their mistakes with that one and then came up with Pro and called it Pro so people would understand it's better in their own view. It's in the way you let the performers play during the recordings.


----------



## Zanshin (Dec 25, 2021)

Option 1.5:

Berlin Strings, Berlin Symphonic Strings, Synchron-ized Dimension Brass, Synchron-ized Woodwinds, MIR Pro 24+ Teldex and Synchron stages, BBO Dorado-Phoenix-Quasar (or Synchron Perc I).

This gets you a flexible set that can do Teldex or Synchron, both awesome stages. For Teldex just load unprocessed mix for Dimension Brass & Synchron-zied Woodwinds and run them in MIR, the percussion can just be panned a little less wide to match up with narrow Teldex better. For Synchron just pan BS and BSS a little wider to match up with the wider Synchron.

Additional thoughts, rationalizations, and opinions:

Sine is not mature, if you want to run a full Berlin set up make sure you have a gob load of ram and/or another machine. BWW is a Frankenstein, mics sets don't match up, the Sine version doesn't have the legacy instruments etc. BB is also a frankenstein, the Kontakt version is missing dynamics levels and the ones that the Sine version adds... well I haven't heard them sound good yet. 

You'd probably be happy with a full Synchron set up too. I know am  Like others have said, get SSP and or SES first, then SS1 later if you want. SS1 vs SSP - people generally like SSP's legato more, also SSP has portamento. Your decision on standard vs full is also sound, SES is the only one I'd miss not having the full mics. You can always upgrade to full mics down the road too.

SSO works for many. If it were me I'd go the SCS route (along with AROOF like you mention), but I like OT's and VSL's offering much more.

You have some heavy decisions to weight @RogiervG!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 25, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> Seriously? VSL themselves are advising not to buy that strings 1? but pro. Pro has a smaller install size, and lesser articulations as i see in the matrix? Why is it that they advise pro over 1?
> 
> Overall, i have seen many renders (on youtube e.g.) done with the mentioned libs from VSL, and they all sound good. Different than the other two options ofcourse.. but still good. (more classical)
> 
> ...


Synchron Strings Pro / Elite are more refined libraries - VSL got it really right with those.

I have all of these options btw - and I’ve done at least mock-ups with them - so I’m talking from experience (unlike what you might find on this forum).

SINE complaints aren’t “complaints” - they’re real issues that have not been fixed yet. And OT’s track record is not great. Can you use the libraries? Yes of course. Can it be a frustrating experience? Yes. Do I prefer using one of the other options? Usually.

You need to understand that film music and classical music require two different approaches and likely two different libraries to really capture the feel properly. Spitfire is the KING at film scoring sounds and textures. Unmatched. VSL is excellent for classical - but can also do film stuff if you’re creative.


----------



## veranad (Dec 25, 2021)

2000€ is a lot of money and out of the options you list, only VSL has a return policy. So I would buy from them first.

I am sure you know already but just in case.

I have none of these, I am jealous. 

Good luck and enjoy!


----------



## ptram (Dec 25, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> it useful to add synchron strings pro


I would say that Synchron Strings Pro should be your main choice, leaving the 'I' collection to an eventual future expansion. Smarter, lighter, easier, more complete.

With the Standard version you will also get the Room Mix, including all the other room mix (but mixed down in stereo, and no access to the separate additional mics; but the Mix Presets will give a lot of variety in any case).

If you like the sound of VSL, also check if you like the Synchronized libraries. They ask for less resources. And if you add MIR, you can place them next to any other library you will add.

Paolo


----------



## Lee Blaske (Dec 25, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> Hi there,
> 
> So i can invest around 2K euros (little more, but well, if it isn't needed, all the better  )
> 
> ...


I think I would go with Synchron. The Synchron instruments are amazingly well-crafted and playable, with a LOT of control and articulations. It's simply top-shelf stuff. And, the various mix presets will really take you to a LOT of different places. Very inspirational. I have not seem better scripting than what VSL is doing these days. I agree with others about about getting Synchron Strings Pro, and skipping the earlier Synchron Strings. Also, if it fits in your final budget, do get the Synchron Elite Strings. They are out of this world. I get goosebumps whenever I load them up. (FWIW, I own all of the OT products and all of the Spitfire products, and they are not slouches. But, if I were packing my bag to be stranded on a dessert island, the Synchron libraries would be the first in my suitcase).


----------



## Zero&One (Dec 25, 2021)

Here's the same piece by a few. Mostly done so you can A/B VSL Pro vs Elite
Rising velocity for dynamics. All default mics except SCS with CTA added

VSL Pro + Elite
SCS
BBC
Berlin Symphonic Strings
Zodiac


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 25, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> Yes, Spitfire indeed has the filmic sound. However, i hear things about inconsistencies? (e.g. SSB and SSW) not sure how hard it is to work around it?
> What do you mean with fiddly (berlin)?
> 
> As for CS series not included, see my other comment


I don't find SSO overly inconsistent, but I've been using it for a long time now, so it might just be that I know the instruments pretty well and so I plan for the inconsistencies. Some are bothered by a lack of tightness in the shorts, but that's never really affected me. You can't really drop midi from one instrument on to another without making adjustments, and there are minor irritations with that, but overall I find SF achieved a good balance of flexibility and simplicity with SSO/SCS. For instance it takes me about half as long to program parts for SCS as compared to Berlin Strings for Kontakt—Sine has improved my speed in working with BS but SCS is still much faster. Also, OT's Teldex instruments—the Berlin series. JXL, and the Arks—generally sit quite well with SSO/SCS as, of course, do the Albions recorded in Air and HZS.

I also find that SSO (chamber and symphonic) can do more than film sound. In fact, I'm rarely aiming at a film sound per se. Obviously with Air you won't get a concert hall sound, but it's still plenty flexible. The sounds are nice, of course, and I love the lower dynamic layers of most of the instruments in the set. Some complain about the libraries not going loud enough (a frequent complaint about SF libraries in general) but I don't find that to be the case in a symphonic context with the possible exception of the trumpets. 

The biggest issues with SSW is the relative paucity of articulations in the oboes and clarinets. I find the oboe to be a nice little instrument despite the lack of variety in articulations. The clarinet suffers more from a lack of articulations, and the English Horn doesn't even have trills. The low woodwinds, however, are marvelous. Something about Air really makes low woodwinds sound great.

I find the brass are lacking some of the intermediate dynamic layers for the shorts. So I frequently feel like I'm wanting to write lines that fall between dynamic layers, and you push it one velocity mark and suddenly there's a huge jump in sound due to the change in dynamic layers. The staccatos are generally great, but I find the tenutos and marcatos are harder to use (but be sure to play around with the timed RTs for a bit more control).


----------



## Jett Hitt (Dec 25, 2021)

I have options 1 & 3. I was dissatisfied enough with 3 that I invested in 1. I adore the sound of 1, but the problems with Sine are very real. Personally, if I could wait, I’d hold out for a big sale before I invested in any of them. (Spitfire should have one right now.) Since there is no advantage to acquiring Berlin at present, not only would I wait for a sale, I’d wait to see if they improve Sine. As for VSL, they have the best software in the game. I just don’t personally like the sound all that much. You really need to listen carefully to each one and decide which sound you like the best.


----------



## Frederick (Dec 25, 2021)

If you want programming to be relatively easy, then I would say choose VSL. I'm still a beginner and my results with VSL are MUCH better. When I want a faster attack, I just select the note and pick the same articulation but with the faster attack from the list in the expression map. Thanks to their consistency you are very likely to just get what you want. All the presets for different mic setups also are a big help. Just choose the one you like best and tweak from there.

With Spitfire libraries I have more problems to tame them. I haven't really tried the OT stuff - just picked most of them up quite recently.


----------



## filipjonathan (Dec 25, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> Well, somehow i have a hard time using css, and since the consistency of the other libs from the series, they (i guess) will have the same issues for me.
> It's the latency/delay that annoy's me, sound is good though, don't get me wrong.
> That's why i seek for another developer's top tier.


Gotcha


----------



## Jackdnp121 (Dec 25, 2021)

Before choosing librarys u should really think of what kind of sound u wants to archive … ( Hollywood ? Classical ? epic ? ) …. Cheers


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 25, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> I will strongly advise against spending $1800-2000 on a list of libraries you have no experience using. Get your feet wet by buying one library from either Spitfire or VSL, then on with the working gloves and make mockups etc. with it. That way you really get to know the library and you find out if you like working with it or not. Be smart and pick a library that may still be useful to you if you end up switching to the other company (Spitfire vs. VSL)
> 
> Orchestral Tools…I see so many people saying bugfixing is not a priority for OT and that their QC does not match the premium price of their sample libraries. Several people complain about problems with their SINE player also. I would be hesitant towards picking OT as a base tbh.


i have bbc so core, and vsl se1 (non synchronized) experience. however bbc has too less dynamic layers, and the player i don't find very snappy (kontakt is better). vsl se1, while the player is good (vi player), the sounds are tamed down versions from the source msterials (too tamed down for my taste). synchron are completely new recordings with a different approach and programming, and new player. and, i have other libs from diverse developers too, all "low-mid" tier products. they all miss that umph the high tiers (seem to) offer. and all have different workflows too. so after spending on the in the end "meh" resulting libs, i figured, lets go straight to the top tiers, stuff and get a good orchestra for (several) years to come, with one workflow. in the end, you get what you pay for (in many cases), i recon


----------



## KEM (Dec 25, 2021)

Spitfire Symphonic Orchestra is what I have but I think the Berlin series might be better honestly


----------



## RSK (Dec 25, 2021)

I have the VSL Synchron series and Spitfire Symphonic Orchestra Pro. I don't see how you could go wrong with either one of them.

That said, you were given some very solid advice regarding VSL; take advantage of their return policy. If you spend seven days (or whatever the return period is) with the Synchron library and decide it's not "epic" enough or whatever, return it and get SSO. It's really a no-lose situation.


----------



## Tralen (Dec 25, 2021)

Like others have said, try VSL first.

It is the only one you can test and that says something about the type of relationship you will get with the company. And obviously, with a financial investment of this caliber, I think you own it to yourself to do it.

If you don't own a Vienna Key, you can wait for the changeover to iLok.

VSL technical quality is unparalleled and the support is very good and friendly. I don't own any of the Synchron series, but my VI collection has worked perfectly over 10 years of usage.


----------



## Petrucci (Dec 25, 2021)

If you go with VSL route you can also consider buying BBO bundle and expand from there, just have to wait for BBO sale and use vouchers, hehe..)) Though BBO contain full mics set but fewer articulations, but also some extras (full orch, choirs, Zodiac, string sections combined with recording at the same time).


----------



## lgchess2 (Dec 25, 2021)

Pick up some VSL vouchers and grab the woodwinds. They’re on an intro sale until the 3rd. You’ll save around 45%. If you like them grab some more vouchers. If not return it.


----------



## holywilly (Dec 25, 2021)

VSL is able to produce music genres from soft romantic to bombastic epic. And you can design your own sonic scape from very close to very roomy. Plus you can try for 14 days.


----------



## Frederick (Dec 26, 2021)

Something about this thread is rubbing me the wrong way and I think it's that the OP only wants top class libraries. I believe that when someone picks up EWQLSO + choir they can already make amazing mockups as long as they are willing to keep working on improving their MIDI programming skills as well as their mixing and mastering skills. IMO buying the best samples is no substitute for perfect mockup skills, when in fact it's mostly the mockup skills that need to be improved.

Myself I have CineSymphony, 8Dio Century, EWQLSO, HOOPUS, MSS & MSB, Sonokinetic and ProjectSAM libs, BBCSO, SStO as well as the "top tier" Berlin, Synchron and Air Lyndhurst orchestral samples. Except for noisy samples in CineStrings Core and the poor solo horn in BBCSO I always blame myself for any problem that occurs when I do a mockup regardless which VSTs are used. User error is my biggest problem. Each library deserves me taking the time to learn to get the most out of it.

Having said that, I do want to repeat that with my specific set of skills VSL is the easiest to program, so that might be a valid reason to pick it up. If someone has a clear preference for the sound of a particular library, then by all means pick it up. If your style of music fits better with a certain library then pick that one. If you can afford it and you like to compare results of multiple libs and feel that each lib will at times be the best choice, then by all means buy them all.


----------



## muk (Dec 26, 2021)

For music in the style of John Williams I would choose the Cinematic Studio Series. As that isn't an option for you, due to workflow, I would then mix an match libraries from several developers. As that isn't an option for you, due to see above, I would then, without enthusiasm, choose Spitfire SSO. Soundwise that's a great option. For classical music, you will be missing choice of articulations and consistency though. 

The Berlin Series is out for me because I don't get along with OT's quality control and programming. The VSL Synchron Series are best in class there. Personally I am not a fan of its bright sound. 

With the rules you have set and my tastes, the choice would be SSO.


----------



## Al Maurice (Dec 26, 2021)

If it's about workflow, then I would say all your options are quite limited.

Most of these are modular libraries and a fairly inconsistent in the way the articulations are arranged.

If you have BBC SO then you'll all set, perhaps if you have core upgrade it to pro, as that will give you first chairs and various other instruments that act as doublers.

Otherwise if you like the sound of OT, then Iconica is worth a look. Many say it has a classical sound, but it's possible to layer it under pop, hip hop, and other productions.

It's arranged into sections, and the woods like Berlin have separate players:
2 clarinets, 2 oboes, 2 flutes and 2 bassoons plus an assortment of doublers.

There's long, shorts, standard and dynamics patches for each set of instruments. And like capsule, you can easily layer articulations, split them according to velocity. Also the attack can be changed to use almost any CC, not just velocity for the shorts. Each artic is treated separately, meaning you can adjust balance them longs and shorts. 

Moreover like Berlin each patch in Iconica has various microphones to balance to taste, and these can easily be bussed out separately into your mixer.

You can download it and demo it for up to a month.

There is also the ensemble section, which has some interesting orchestrated patches, capable of producing unison, polyphonic and chordal lines, which is currently on sale until the end of the month.


----------



## amorphosynthesis (Dec 26, 2021)

Zero&One said:


> Zodiac


❓❓❓❓


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 26, 2021)

Frederick said:


> Something about this thread is rubbing me the wrong way and I think it's that the OP only wants top class libraries. I believe that when someone picks up EWQLSO + choir they can already make amazing mockups as long as they are willing to keep working on improving their MIDI programming skills as well as their mixing and mastering skills. IMO buying the best samples is no substitute for perfect mockup skills, when in fact it's mostly the mockup skills that need to be improved.
> 
> Myself I have CineSymphony, 8Dio Century, EWQLSO, HOOPUS, MSS & MSB, Sonokinetic and ProjectSAM libs, BBCSO, SStO as well as the "top tier" Berlin, Synchron and Air Lyndhurst orchestral samples. Except for noisy samples in CineStrings Core and the poor solo horn in BBCSO I always blame myself for any problem that occurs when I do a mockup regardless which VSTs are used. User error is my biggest problem. Each library deserves me taking the time to learn to get the most out of it.
> 
> Having said that, I do want to repeat that with my specific set of skills VSL is the easiest to program, so that might be a valid reason to pick it up. If someone has a clear preference for the sound of a particular library, then by all means pick it up. If your style of music fits better with a certain library then pick that one. If you can afford it and you like to compare results of multiple libs and feel that each lib will at times be the best choice, then by all means buy them all.


I agree with you on the skill elements, totally.

I might be a weirdo.. or a special case...
However, there is a thing I call sonic percievement. It's how a sound (or motive) triggers your emotion and creativity when hearing it.


With BBC (with respect to the product), it feel limiting. E.g. i miss certain instruments, can't do fluent dynamic changes (there are only 2 to 3 of them). It blocks creative freedom. The PRO has the extra instruments, but not more dynamics. So a limiting factor remains.
The product feels cutting corners instrument detail wise, and sets it's focus on mic choices more.
And the player as said before feels not snappy (it slow loading, it's fragile: i often need to do repairs on bbc so, because it says so). You might think: why did i put AROOF on the option? well for occasional usage (augmenting lib use for SSO), it won't hinder me that much. But as a Base/principal library the player bugs me for daily use.

CSS, sounds good, but workflow wise it blocks creativity for me.
I have spend hours on hours trying to coop with the workflow.. but it hinders me in such way, i don't like to use it anymore in a creative sense.

I have the Chriss Hein Orchestra too, but it's a step down for me too. The sound feels boxy, squashed, mono. And it requires a ton of work, to make it even passible in my ears. It doesn't trigger my emotion in the possitive sense. I've spoken with several demo making users for CH.. and they all said it requires indeed a good amount of post processing. (some even use MIR Pro)

I have HOOPUS too, but i find it hard to use (weird patch names still), the woods are "meh".. brass is tonally good same for strings, but because of patch names it still hard to figure it out. The sound is too direct/present for my taste though.. even if applying additional reverbs. It feel too bombastic/epic sounding per default.

As you can see, i have invested quite a bit, and tried quite a bit.. But they are all (in current days), mid-ish tier libraries, and are surpased these days with higher quality libs. (either sonically, or workflow wise or both)

That's why i thought about going up a tier, so the library of choice gives me enough sonic options/quality (not only room information, but also articulations and it's scripting), and workflows.
Sure, it's not cheap, but constant buying into libraries in the lower tiers, and thinking it will be able to do the high tiers (e.g. sonic abilities), is just not happening.
I want to invest in a top tier library set, to mitigate problems as described above.. and have room for years to come, that when i get better at orchestrating/mockup making, the library still suits me properly. Quality comes with a price, they say.. and well, it appears to be so with libraries too.

An analogy, that might not be completely correct.. but it might give you an idea on what i mean with the above.. You can live in a tiny wooden hut, not very sturdy quality, yet it gives you a roof and shelter. It functions as a little house. But don't expect the same quality and benefits a real house will give you. Would it be wise (on the long run) to buy a wooden hut, or better buy a house?

And again, i know that a library alone is not enough, and skill set is key. Totally.


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 26, 2021)

Al Maurice said:


> If it's about workflow, then I would say all your options are quite limited.
> 
> Most of these are modular libraries and a fairly inconsistent in the way the articulations are arranged.
> 
> ...


Iconica.. i shall look into that. See what included and how it works. I believe there is a demo available.


----------



## ModalRealist (Dec 26, 2021)

VSL have a two week returns window. So I would buy some (or all, if your ent connection is fast enough!) of the VSL stuff, and see how you find it/what it does or doesn’t do for you.

Then you can use that as a basis for whether to stick or move to someone else’s libraries.

No other developer will give you that flexibility.


----------



## AlainTH (Dec 26, 2021)

i have all and the most i use is 1: vsl pro+elite+synchronized-dimension and 2: bbcso. Sometimes cs series and sco. berlin for some instruments (perc, wwlegacy, harp...) +MIR. (Hoopus at occasion also).


----------



## AndyP (Dec 26, 2021)

HOPUS and VSL synchron are my workhorses. 
And I often still use the synchronized SE versions for solo woodwinds and solo brass. In 90% of all cases these are sufficient for me. Strings rather not, there the reduced roundrobins and dynamic layers are already noticeable, so I have bought the synchron strings completely.
I think if I would start again, then my libraries would be: VSL BBO, the synchron series, HOPUS and LASS 3.


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 26, 2021)

Looking at the answers, it appears VSL is a tad more in favor than SSO, OT berlin Sine is not adviced.

Thank you all for your input on the matter, very much appreciated. I will relisten, rewatch walkthroughs and read reviews again.. will make a choice soon. which route to go... for my principle/main orchestral needs. VSL return policy tip is a consideration, thanks for hinting on that.


----------



## Jrides (Dec 26, 2021)

Buying the VSL woodwinds on intro price with the voucher discount was the best tip in this thread to me.…. You get the benefit of the return. Plus an extra discount on part of the package if you choose to keep it


----------



## Zero&One (Dec 26, 2021)

amorphosynthesis said:


> ❓❓❓❓


Sorry, VSL their BBO Zodiac


----------



## Aitcpiano (Dec 26, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> Hi there,
> 
> So i can invest around 2K euros (little more, but well, if it isn't needed, all the better  )
> 
> ...


What about the workflow of the cinematic studio series do you not like? If it's the legato delays then CSW has low latency mode making it much better, CSS you could just use the old legato patches that don't have that much latency and it Is going to be getting an update soon which should hopefully reduce the latency/delay in the legato patches. CSB is the only one that is a little bit annoying in regards to the amount of delay in the legato but should eventually get an update as well. Otherwise I think cinematic studio series has one of the best workflows because of its consistency between all articulations and good programming.


----------



## MartinH. (Dec 26, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> I agree with you on the skill elements, totally.
> 
> I might be a weirdo.. or a special case...
> However, there is a thing I call sonic percievement. It's how a sound (or motive) triggers your emotion and creativity when hearing it.
> ...



What if there is no library on the market (yet) that you like?


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic (Dec 26, 2021)

It's hard to beat the value of the CS series as a flagship orchestra. If you're not a fan of the sound, Berlin or SSO might fit your bill better.


----------



## Zanshin (Dec 26, 2021)

I find it amusing when the CSS tribe can't fathom why someone doesn't like it, like it's beyond their comprehension haha.


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 26, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> What if there is no library on the market (yet) that you like?


i am (still) out of luck i guess? but indeed it is possible ofcourse. Although i think that top tier libs are being considered flagships by the using crowd aswell for the overal better quality (in multiple parts).
However, still i might long for something that isn't possible technically yet.. hmmm thanks for making me think about this... haha.. another thought to take into consideration


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 26, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> What about the workflow of the cinematic studio series do you not like? If it's the legato delays then CSW has low latency mode making it much better, CSS you could just use the old legato patches that don't have that much latency and it Is going to be getting an update soon which should hopefully reduce the latency/delay in the legato patches. CSB is the only one that is a little bit annoying in regards to the amount of delay in the legato but should eventually get an update as well. Otherwise I think cinematic studio series has one of the best workflows because of its consistency between all articulations and good programming.


I don't know, how to describe it.. but there is just something that doesn't gel with me using css.
And because of the consistency, this is very likely to be the case with all the cs libs too.
We can discuss till we fall asleep... but i think we are running circles on the subject.  
CS series completion, for me is a no no at this time. Too much chance it will have the same issues as css has for me. (and yes i know about the legacy legato)


----------



## Aitcpiano (Dec 26, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> I don't know, how to describe it.. but there is just something that doesn't gel with me using css.
> And because of the consistency, this is very likely to be the case with all the cs libs too.
> We can discuss till we fall asleep... but i think we are running circles on the subject.
> CS series completion, for me is a no no at this time. Too much chance it will have the same issues as css has for me. (and yes i know about the legacy legato)


That's fair enough, not every library is a perfect fit for everyone. I get why the workflow may not be good for you as everyone's workflows are different. I still suppliment it with other libraries, prefer some ensembles patches of cinebrass and still will use something like scs pro alongside it. Just overall for me it's one of the most consistent, and well balanced/programmed one you can get. I also like how it is all pre balanced.


----------



## ModalRealist (Dec 26, 2021)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> hard to beat the value of the CS series as a flagship orchestra


Curious about this! In a “total cost” way or a “what it can do” way or?


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic (Dec 26, 2021)

ModalRealist said:


> Curious about this! In a “total cost” way or a “what it can do” way or?


Cost first and foremost! You get a great workhorse set that's extremely consistent and works like a charm.


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic (Dec 26, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> So I've been pondering this on the cost front. I've bought CSS already at BF. So that was $299. To buy the remainder of CS series, plus truestrike, plus a harp is:
> 
> CSB: $279
> CSW: $279
> ...


The biggest difference in my opinion here is the depth of sampling and what you get in each package. I think a slightly closer comparison would be CS series to SSO, as those contain the dedicated sections with individual articulations that are way more deeply sampled than BBCSO, afaik.


----------



## Futchibon (Dec 27, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> Question is.. which option would you pick, and well.. why ofcourse. (and are there cons to the coice? weak points e.g.)
> I choose these three options, because of sonics (room information, quality etc).
> Yes Cinematic studio series is there also, but i the worklfow is not my things. (and i have css)


They're all good, but if one doesn't stand out to you soundwise, VSL's trial policy is fantastic. And remember, you can sell it later on down the track if needed, a huge bonus compared with the others.


----------



## ModalRealist (Dec 27, 2021)

Hm! 


ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Cost first and foremost!


Interesting! To me they don’t seem so cheap. £900 and no percussion (and are there WW ensembles?). That’s the same price as Spitfire Symphonic Orchestra (also no percussion). Would you say CS is better value for the money?


----------



## markleake (Dec 27, 2021)

I have a different take on this. I don't think any of the main option presented here are going to guarantee workflow or quality bliss. They are all fantasic, but they all have their problems also.

My suggestion is you need to learn to pick the best parts out of the libraries you have, work out what parts to fill in with other new libraries, and which libraries are most suitable to specific tasks. Really, all the libraries will let you down and be frustrating. But eventually you will settle on ones that are good enough for you.

I find in practice I just don't use any one company's full orchestral set by itself very often. And I'm often switching between various libraries for specific needs.


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 27, 2021)

markleake said:


> I have a different take on this. I don't think any of the main option presented here are going to guarantee workflow or quality bliss. They are all fantasic, but they all have their problems also.
> 
> My suggestion is you need to learn to pick the best parts out of the libraries you have, work out what parts to fill in with other new libraries, and which libraries are most suitable to specific tasks. Really, all the libraries will let you down and be frustrating. But eventually you will settle on ones that are good enough for you.
> 
> I find in practice I just don't use any one company's full orchestral set by itself very often. And I'm often switching between various libraries for specific needs.


yes, that would likely be the case eventually. Expanding here and there to bypass weaknesses and problem areas, if it bugs me enough. But i think a solid high end main/principle library in the template is a good thing. (meaning from one vendor, so the workflow is steady and the programming too)


----------



## Aitcpiano (Dec 27, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> yes, that would likely be the case eventually. Expanding here and there to bypass weaknesses and problem areas, if it bugs me enough. But i think a solid high end main/principle library in the template is a good thing. (meaning from one vendor, so the workflow is steady and the programming too)


What types of workflow work well for you? If CS series is not an option for you then maybe VSL would suit you? VSL would provide that good programming and it has one of the best players. Tons of articulations and resale/14 days refunds.

SSO can be inconsistent and is very wet, using only SSO is too wet for my liking. Programming is not as good as some of the other options, but the performance legatos in the strings are great, I only really use spitfires strings out of the SSO libraries. I'd say SCS Pro and SSS are worth it as I think they have some of the best tone of any string library on the market and have tons of articulations, however, theirs are better options for brass and woods.

OT orchestra in SINE apparently has lots of issues currently as its only newly been ported over. I have no experience with OT main orchestra libraries so cant comment on how good of an option this would be.

Another options would be BBCSO Pro. The strings are very good and in many ways I prefer BBCSO Pro strings than SSS. BBCSO strings are more flexible than SSS as they have more mic options and can be drier sounding with less reverb tail than SSS strings. You could then also get SCS Pro alongside this for divisi, layering, really good playable runs and all its additional articulations. You could then still use or integrate CSS for it's consistent and nice range of short notes and expressive legato when needed. If spending around 2k you'd still have enough for some other libraries to add to it, such as Cinebrass. If going the BBCSO Pro route then I would add an additional brass library to it for the higher brass dynamics.


----------



## Marsen (Dec 27, 2021)

Frederick said:


> then by all means buy them all.


Now we are talking!


----------



## easyrider (Dec 27, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> Ah yes... I was wondering if that was the case. SSO is slightly more than CS, approximately:
> 
> SSO Chamber Strings Edition: $999 (always price, doesn't discount further)
> Spitfire Percussion: $239 (currently sale price)
> ...











Spitfire Audio — Symphony Complete


In addition to woodwinds, brass and a 60 piece string section, Symphony Complete includes all of our percussion libraries recorded in The Hall at AIR Studios.



www.spitfireaudio.com


----------



## easyrider (Dec 27, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> I find it amusing when the CSS tribe can't fathom why someone doesn't like it, like it's beyond their comprehension haha.


Indeed….It’s odd tribalism over a sample library….🤢


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 27, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> What types of workflow work well for you? If CS series is not an option for you then maybe VSL would suit you? VSL would provide that good programming and it has one of the best players. Tons of articulations and resale/14 days refunds.
> 
> SSO can be inconsistent and is very wet, using only SSO is too wet for my liking. Programming is not as good as some of the other options, but the performance legatos in the strings are great, I only really use spitfires strings out of the SSO libraries. I'd say SCS Pro and SSS are worth it as I think they have some of the best tone of any string library on the market and have tons of articulations, however, theirs are better options for brass and woods.
> 
> ...


CSS, it's hard to explain for me. But i dislike the variable pre-delays, i dislike how it is setup (gui etc.) And the sound is good, yet often too "romantic".
But the pre-delays that are variable (e.g. legato and advanced legatos in one patch) etc etc.. i might be an oddball, but i don't like those things  I just want to set it on a value if i need,and leave it alone, and just play. Also the predelay is quite huge in ms.
Ofcourse you could say: just learn it, just coop with it, and get the nice romantic legato's e.g.
But, that's not how my brain operates.. (again i might be an oddball haha) the library should work for me, not the other way round..  (if you get my drift)

SSO option would be the chamber strings one, instead of the symphonic strings. That i know already. 

BBC core i have, but i find it too limiting (dynamic layers e.g.) the focus on micorphone options is not what i seek, i need very detailed sound abilities (articulations and tone). Ofcourse some mic options are nice, but a gazillion is overkill if that means cutting corners with the instruments itself. (like BBC does in essence).
Yes the strings are nice, but the brass is not so much, the woods are kind of good (flutes e.g.)
Still it's too limiting, for what i seek.

So yes, given the advices on OT Berlin Sine, I guess it remains either VSL synchron libs orchestra or maybe (also looking into that in my research synchron-ized and VI versions (or hybrid mixture) OR Spitfire SSO Chamber edition route.

Hmmm it's a though choice... either one has advantages over the other... in different areas it seems.
Both Brands sound good to my ears, yet different in character. "modern" Smooth movie sound vs classical movie sound... (aka traditional orchestra)

I guess with VSL you really need to orchestrate properly, it's less forgiving, while SSO is more forgiving? If so, VSL could have a pro in that regard, since it makes me really focus on orchestrating since it sounds more directly translated how a real world orchestra would sound i guess.
It's also a con ofcourse, since it takes more time to get an endresult (even if it's easy to operate: the player as i've read).

Hmmm my ears are getting overtime processing everything i hear... 
And my eyes get tired from reading all the reviews, opinions and watching videos.  
But it's needed, i won't buy blindly (not reading/watching) or without proper audible researching.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Dec 27, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> CSS, it's hard to explain for me. But i dislike the variable pre-delays, i dislike how it is setup (gui etc.) And the sound is good, yet often too "romantic".
> But the pre-delays that are variable (e.g. legato and advanced legatos in one patch) etc etc.. i might be an oddball, but i don't like those things  I just want to set it on a value if i need,and leave it alone, and just play. Also the predelay is quite huge in ms.
> Ofcourse you could say: just learn it, just coop with it, and get the nice romantic legato's e.g.
> But, that's not how my brain operates.. (again i might be an oddball haha) the library should work for me, not the other way round..  (if you get my drift)
> ...


Not an oddball in regards to CSS at all. Other feel similar and I do in some regards. I agree with the delays, I never use the advanced legato mode. The standard mode is better but still too long on the CSS strings legatos, I sometimes use the old legato patches to avoid this or manually move parts in time which can be more time consuming and a bit annoying. CSW is much better in this regards with it's low latency mode, I am hoping CSS gets the low latency mode in the update coming soon. You would not like CSB as that is probably the worst currently in regards to the delays on the legatos with no options, currently for a legato patch without big variable delays.

I also find that the CSS legatos are often too romantic sounding for many pieces and I would like if CSS had more control over the amount of vibrato, but I again will often integrate a different library with CSS for legato lines that need less vibrato and a less romantic sound, it's just that for me CSS and the CS series overall provides that base sound and consistency which allows me to effectively balance all my other libraries too. It's shorts are also very good in my view.

In regards to SSO, SCS would probably be the one I'd choose. SCS is a great library and their is not the issues with variable delays like you get in CSS. The performance legatos are great!

I agree with BBCSO. I don't find the dynamic range too bad on the strings, the brass is less good and I would integrate that with another library such as cinebrass. Strings are quite nice in BBCSO Pro but again I would also buy something like SCS Pro to use alongside BBCSO Pro.

Sounds like SCS may be a good options maybe? I'm just not sure I would advice SSW or SSB. SSB also has a limited dynamic range. It does not go that loud and misses the higher dynamics. You would also be limited to the very wet sound.

As others have mentioned VSL might be a good option as well.


----------



## Rudianos (Dec 27, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> Option 1:
> OT Berlin Series SINE editon is available for 2297 euro incl. vat.
> Strings, woodwinds, brass and percussion.


After careful review I selected this option. It was 1200 euro a couple of weeks ago. Sooo, careful to wait for Black Friday on that... No regrets here. I am aiming for a classical first sound - maybe some cinematic stuff if I feel the need.


Option 2:
VSL synchron series with vouchers use,

We know they refund their software and resale. Do you get a refund of vouchers if there is nothing at the end of this for you?

...I open up Synchon demos, and what I have in the Epic Orchestra and always arrive at the conclusion ... ehhh no. Remove the room. Just does not work for me. Does not have the warmth to my ears. Always worth a trial though. Love the VI winds though they do. They get instrument mechanics usually.


Option 3:

Not enough experience with Spitfire. AR1 sounds great. Loving my AR2 Quintet.


There are some recent comparisons between all mentioned orchestras on this thread.






String "Shorts" Comparison Thread


Un-deleted now :) Original MIDI attached. CSS Render: ISS Render:




vi-control.net


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 27, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> CSS, it's hard to explain for me. But i dislike the variable pre-delays, i dislike how it is setup (gui etc.) And the sound is good, yet often too "romantic".
> But the pre-delays that are variable (e.g. legato and advanced legatos in one patch) etc etc.. i might be an oddball, but i don't like those things  I just want to set it on a value if i need,and leave it alone, and just play. Also the predelay is quite huge in ms.
> 
> SSO option would be the chamber strings one, instead of the symphonic strings. That i know already.
> ...


If you like the workflow with BBCSO and are bothered mainly by its limitations, especially its brass, maybe the way to proceed is by supplementation. Find a brass section that you like and works with BBCSO. Then find the next bit you have issues with and find supplementation for that. Etc. Because I think you’ll find that all of the virtual orchestras will require this kind of supplementation of their weak spots. Any new orchestra will simply present different weak spots, so why not work on supplementing what you already have? Unless you just don’t like the sound of BBCSO or find it doesn’t work with your workflow.


----------



## Ivan M. (Dec 27, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> yes, that would likely be the case eventually. Expanding here and there to bypass weaknesses and problem areas, if it bugs me enough. But i think a solid high end main/principle library in the template is a good thing. (meaning from one vendor, so the workflow is steady and the programming too)


How about this, try searching for mockups of music you like, and see what libraries were used. Then search for reviews for those libraries.

Be careful when you say "solid high end library" because it might not work for what you need,. It might have high end samples, but not high end flexibility. Most libs are good for epic, but only a few for the classical style.

Unfortunately, no one offers demos, libs are expensive and some prohibit license transfer, so all of our lib purchases are extremely risky, and you simply can't avoid making a mistake.


----------



## from_theashes (Dec 27, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> If you like the workflow with BBCSO and are bothered mainly by its limitations, especially its brass, maybe the way to proceed is by supplementation. Find a brass section that you like and works with BBCSO. Then find the next bit you have issues with and find supplementation for that. Etc. Because I think you’ll find that all of the virtual orchestras will require this kind of supplementation of their weak spots. Any new orchestra will simply present different weak spots, so why not work on supplementing what you already have? Unless you just don’t like the sound of BBCSO or find it doesn’t work with your workflow.


Jep, I think that’s the way to go. I don’t think there is one perfect solution in one package. I mean, some are happy with only one complete orchestral package… but I think most of us will combine libraries from different developers to find the perfect combination for their needs.


----------



## Pianolando (Dec 27, 2021)

Berlin Berlin Berlin…..pick my team…its the best!!!

No, but seriously, any of these options will do, all will have their advantages but also flaws and all will have a specific sound. Pick what you think sounds best, in the end your skills and effort makes exponentially more difference than which libraries you choose. 

Or mix and match, not a single person in the world will notice or care that the libraries “don’t match”.


----------



## Trevor Meier (Dec 27, 2021)

If you look hard and find in the end there’s not the library that has a workflow you like, take a look at Modern Scoring Strings. It has automatic standard lookahead, auto-divisi and a huge range of articulations. I find the workflow to be the fastest and easiest to get to good results. I don’t like the room it was recorded in its own, but it takes well to reverb once you turn off the internal processing. 

I’m in a similar situation as you, but have chosen to use a mix of libraries (SCS, MSS, BBCSO Pro, AR1 and a handful of others) while I wait for Spitfire Abbey Road Modular Orchestra. My hunch is it’s going to be the one to beat, and the recent AR2 release has me hopeful.


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 27, 2021)

Oh wow.. haha, it's getting harder and harder by the minute.. 
I really appreciate the input, suggestions, thoughts i receive here.. seriously, very kind of you all.

*Ok, let's try it then..the suggestion to add libraries to replace the weaks points..*

What would be a good combination, that has good sound (classical and movie like if want be: not epic, just williams like classical movie tone). I have read a few, but i also would like to know why you choose it, etc..

So here we go, which augmentation libs to add? and why?:
- SSO SCS edition? (i like the tone of SCS as far as i've heard)
- BBC core, i can cheaply upgrade to pro.
Note: this will be my last pick (the player is wonky at times, and slow loading, in contrast to kontakt), but maybe with the right additional libs, it works out for me 

Just these two, reason: cost is unknown because of additional libs pricing... in short: it's unknown which ones it will be, that would be ideal considering my goal.
And is it it possible to hear a short render you made with the combination? (so i can hear how it would sound)

VSL is the financial heavy weight, and the price is known for a complete orchestra (well, not including piano and solo strings, but for me that is not a dealbreaker). And it sounds nice.. (even synchron-ized libs combinations)..
Same for Berlin series, although i'm a bit in doubt about the reported issues.. and if it get fixed soon.
The sound is quite nice though (tone)... gosh.. why is it so hard.. hahaha

However, for the given suggestions:
i want to try the cheaper options: augmentation libraries along a base orchestra (BBC or SSO SCS).


----------



## from_theashes (Dec 27, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> What would be a good combination, that has good sound (classical and movie like if want be: not epic, just williams like classical movie tone)



Atm I‘m pretty happy with SCS plus HOOPUS (especially for Brass!). I know you don’t like the weird patch-names… but as soon as you pick your favorites and organize them in a template, it’s pretty much „load and go!“
Maybe Berlin Woodwinds would be a good addition (out of my price range^^)


----------



## Tralen (Dec 27, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> However, for the given suggestions:
> i want to try the cheaper options: augmentation libraries along a base orchestra (BBC or SSO SCS).


It is not clear if it is the cheaper option, though, since there is no return policy. If you don't like it, you will have to buy another. So, I would still say, try VSL first.



Ivan M. said:


> Unfortunately, no one offers demos, libs are expensive and some prohibit license transfer, so all of our lib purchases are extremely risky, and you simply can't avoid making a mistake.


As mentioned, VSL stands out as the only big dev that offers demo, return and resale policies.


----------



## JohnG (Dec 27, 2021)

I like Spitfire all the way. I've worked with a composer who loved Berlin and it sounded pretty good too.

Not so much a VSL fan.

For what it's worth, I would never choose a library that will take a month (six?) to really get to know _based on its return policies. _I disagree with that argument. 

Instead, I think you have to choose based on your personal assessment of the sound. I wouldn't listen to me or anyone else; get good speakers and good headphones and really listen yourself -- then trust your ears.

[note: I have received free products from Spitfire Audio]


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 27, 2021)

JohnG said:


> I think you have to choose based on your personal assessment of the sound. I wouldn't listen to me or anyone else; get good speakers and good headphones and really listen yourself -- then trust your ears.


Yup, if you don't like the sound, EQ (and other processing) likely won't be sufficient, and then nothing will make the library work for you. Scripting can be a pain and sometimes is a deal killer in terms of workflow, but can almost always be overcome if you like the sound well enough.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Dec 27, 2021)

JohnG said:


> I like Spitfire all the way. I've worked with a composer who loved Berlin and it sounded pretty good too.
> 
> Not so much a VSL fan.
> 
> ...


which spitfire libraries are your favourites? I'm still a little unsure on VSL myself. I love their player. It's one of the best and do like that they are the only big dev that offers demos, returns and resales (makes me want to buy into their libraries more than all other developers at this point due to these reasons), but I am a bit unconvinced by their synchron strings libraries. I personally think spitfires strings and CSS all seem to give better and more realistic results than what I am hearing from the synchron string libraries.


----------



## markleake (Dec 27, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> What would be a good combination, that has good sound (classical and movie like if want be: not epic, just williams like classical movie tone). I have read a few, but i also would like to know why you choose it, etc..


Here's what I would call trypical recommendations on this forum:

Brass:
- Hollywood Brass - these are probably the best in tone along with CinBrass
- CineBrass (Core + Pro + Destant Horn + Sonore, etc) - likewise, although the articulations can be a bit limiting

I wouldn't rule out Berlin Brass and Spitfire Symphonic Brass as workhorse libraries, but I think you'll find the above two can get easier results for that JW style and for the movie sound. Personally I find myself using Berlin Brass a lot more recently as my go-to, because it has a wonderful tone and you can write better for individual parts (the downside being this is more time consuming), and it seems to mix well with most other libs.

Woodwinds:
- VSL Synchron-ised Woodwinds - just fantastic and very flexible, will work great for what you want
- VSL Synchron Woodwinds - new, so we have less experience with it, I'm not sure it beats the Synchron-ised library
- Berlin Woodwinds - fantasic, but complicated by the SINE player and lack of the old woodwinds being included now
- Spitfire Symphonic Woodwinds - I still use these a lot, although I avoid some instruments
- Sonokinetic Ensemble Woodwinds - Not solos, and only the 4 main instrumental groups, but sounds wonderful; a very underated and comprehensive library for what it is, plus it comes with recorded runs

Strings I will leave to you, as you seem to have that mostly sorted. But I will say one thing contrary to your thoughts here. I'm a fan of Spitfire Symphonic Strings, because I think they have the best tone for big orchestra sounding stuff. Not always the easiest to write with, not the best legatos, especially if you come from the CSS legato is king crowd, but they are very extensive in terms of articulations. I've always found SSS much easier to use as my mains than SCS... the vibrato and nasal tone of SCS is quite strong sometimes... not what I want for big sweeping movie style lines.

The new Sonokinetic Orchestral Strings are also an option - a more neutral classical sound, with great playability and auto dividi. Another option is Nashville Scoring Strings, but I don't have these to comment.

Really, what you are asking for is a never ending quest for many of us.


----------



## JohnG (Dec 27, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> which spitfire libraries are your favourites?


Well, I like quite a few! I enjoy everything from those "edge of silence" patches like Albion Tundra, to Chamber Strings, to Abbey Road One, HZ percussion and HZ Strings. So I would urge you to use your own taste and your own ears to make choices of what to get. If you already have BBSO maybe you can focus on their esoteric, add-on libraries?

I also mix in samples from just about everybody -- East West, Strezov Sampling, Cinesamples, Soundiron, Sonica (Japanese instruments), and 8dio. And plenty of others for specialty items like regionally obscure instruments, synths and all that.

*It's All About You*

I always suggest that anyone choosing listen very carefully to walkthroughs and demos and make up his / her own mind, not listen to me or anyone else. As @jbuhler has written, Spitfire's approach works for him and it works for me too. I struggle to think of any of their libraries in which I'm disappointed.

Some people object that demos are made by pros who know a lot of tricks, and that's true, but at least that way you can hear what someone can do who's knowledgeable and has taken the time to understand the libraries (Like the amazing Andy Blaney).

[note: I have received free products from Spitfire, Strezov, and East West]


----------



## Aitcpiano (Dec 27, 2021)

JohnG said:


> Well, I like quite a few! I enjoy everything from those "edge of silence" patches like Albion Tundra, to Chamber Strings, to Abbey Road One, HZ percussion and HZ Strings. So I would urge you to use your own taste and your own ears to make choices of what to get. If you already have BBSO maybe you can focus on their esoteric, add-on libraries?
> 
> I also mix in samples from just about everybody -- East West, Strezov Sampling, Cinesamples, Soundiron, Sonica (Japanese instruments), and 8dio. And plenty of others for specialty items like regionally obscure instruments, synths and all that.
> 
> ...


Thanks, great advice. I was considering tundra or chamber evolutions. I've mainly got spitfires main libraries such as SCS and SSS, Abbey Road one and BBCSO Pro, all of which are very good.

I'm quite similar in that I always end up mixing and matching different libraries. I normally do use CS series and will often get levels balanced in a template based of them.


----------



## Trevor Meier (Dec 27, 2021)

One thing I find useful about buying into one dev’s premiere libraries is that as expansions come along, they tend to fit well together with minimal fuss. Having everything recorded at Teldex (OT), Synchron (VSL) or Air (Spitfire’s current lineup) makes for simpler blending when work calls for a large palette. 

In my case with Spitfire, having Tundra, NEO and SCS all recorded in Air is a great palette to work with.


----------



## Zanshin (Dec 27, 2021)

Trevor Meier said:


> One thing I find useful about buying into one dev’s premiere libraries is that as expansions come along, they tend to fit well together with minimal fuss. Having everything recorded at Teldex (OT), Synchron (VSL) or Air (Spitfire’s current lineup) makes for simpler blending when work calls for a large palette.
> 
> In my case with Spitfire, having Tundra, NEO and SCS all recorded in Air is a great palette to work with.


Overall I agree, but I'm finding Teldex and Synchron libraries mix pretty easy though. Air can be a tougher nut to crack (at least it has been for me).

OT with Teldex... at least JXL Brass is recorded in Teldex wide, 90 degrees to Berlin. Are any of the other OT Teldex libraries recorded in that config?

As an example - this is BSS (cel and bas), Special Bows (vln), 1st Chairs (vln, cel and bas), Syz Dimension Brass (horns, wagner tubas, low brass), Syz WW (flute), Synchron Perc (timp). The Berlin strings are panned to match Synchron wide, tai chi for reverb. Just a quick sketch to show what I mean, don't judge lol.

View attachment sketch.mp3


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 27, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> Overall I agree, but I'm finding Teldex and Synchron libraries mix pretty easy though. Air can be a tougher nut to crack (at least it has been for me).
> 
> OT with Teldex... at least JXL Brass is recorded in Teldex wide, 90 degrees to Berlin. Are any of the other OT Teldex libraries recorded in that config?
> 
> ...


I find Teldex libraries mix well into Air. But the reverse is not true. I can’t get the Air out of Air. Fortunately I like the sound of Air.


----------



## Jackdnp121 (Dec 27, 2021)

I agreed with one of the comments … VSL does works better if you have a solid understanding of harmony and theory ( actually which one doesn’t ) … and I’ve notice a lot of their customers are academically musical … but yes they r more expensive ..but at the same time it’ll be a good challenge and exercise … because everything is well pre mixed and balance … you can really focus on the music itself ….

cheers


----------



## nas (Dec 28, 2021)

Definitely agree with "go for what library's sound appeals to you the most". I would also agree with building or supplementing gradually. Perhaps consider a solid string library first and build from there with the other sections. Every library is going to have a bit of a learning curve and some weaknesses - there is no perfect library, but really spending time and getting under the hood can yield some very satisfactory results. 

FWIW I have libraries from VSL, Berlin, SF, EWQL, etc.. but I do remember when I first listened to SF SSS & SCS it was really an "a ha" moment for me and I was totally enamored with the _sound_. So I pulled the trigger on SCS first. It took some time to get to grips with it and really start to utilize all the different CC# and programing options to get the most out of it, but after some well invested time I felt it was a good investment and has been the foundation of my orchestral templates ever since. I then began to build from there and expand my orchestral libraries - not only from SF, but other great libraries from other manufacturers.


----------



## zedmaster (Dec 28, 2021)

My advice: Don't pick any and don't commit all your budget immediately. 

Why? Because you said CSS doesn't have a great workflow for you. Wouldn't it completely suck if for *ANY* reason, you had a similar experience with the full orchestra you just purchased?

I'd say build your palette over time and let yourself by guided by what has proven to work for you.


----------



## mybadmemory (Dec 28, 2021)

My strategy has been to not go all in on one developer until I’ve “tried them all”, to get a feel for how they sound and feel underneath my own hands. For me this has meant dipping my toes into Spitfire, Cinesamples, Orchestral Tools, Audio Imperia, and Cinematic Studio Series with one or a few select libraries from each of them.

What I’ve learned from this is that while they all sound great listening to what other people do with them, only two of them “feel right” when I use them myself, and while I still adore the potential sound of the other three, they just don’t get me writing in the same way as the first two, which I think is the single most important deciding factor when choosing.

By now I know which ones to get more from and feel safe, and which are the wrong choice for me personally, which makes further additions much easier. Had I gone all in on one of them without trying them all out first it would have been a 60% chance of disappointment, money waste, and less music made.


----------



## quickbrownf0x (Dec 28, 2021)

I find with the Spitfire stuff it's sometimes a bit of a hit and miss. Love the sound of SSS (especially in combination with SCS), but then you check out, for example, their Studio stuff and that to me at times just sounds downright wonky. Same with HZ Strings - great sound again for the most part and then you hear those legatos and go 'Jesus, all that cash they spent on marketing... they couldn't just spent on making those crossovers a bit nicer?'. At times it's just a bit sloppy and synthy, to my ears anyway.

I'm one of _those _Cinematic Studio bread-and-butter guys, I guess. They're a bit finnicky, true, but man do they sound lush. And they play nice when you layer them, too.

The Berlin stuff sounds a little more 'straight' and classical. Great room and I think their woodwinds sound amazing.

As for VSL - I really like what they're doing with Synchron. Never been a fan of their older stuff, though. Too dry, too much, too wonky. 

So I guess you should mix and match, according to taste.


----------



## Al Maurice (Dec 28, 2021)

Symphonic libraries can produce interesting tonal blends, as long as they are used as designed -- to be layered up with lots of instrument doublings.

I found to get the most out of them, you need to be able to craft out a semblance of 3D space, by separating out each of your ideas. That's why libraries with only one mix don't quite cut it for me.

So you need to ask yourself, where is your short coming: is it with your libraries, they way you are using them or just in basic orchestration skills.

If it's the first then, maybe look to see how you can complement your toolbox. 

If it's the latter two, perhaps spend more time with the ones you have, and see how you can get the best out of them. Then later look elsewhere.


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 28, 2021)

My ears tell me: Spitfire Air sound. it's lush, filmic, warm. I think i'll go that route, listening to walktrhoughs over and over and over.. a/b comparing... Yes, VSL is detailed, has all kinds of articlulations etc. Is perhaps better programmed.. but.. the sound is somehow less appealing (especially the strings) in contrast to Spitfire.

So yes.. sound is very important, it should trigger you emotionally. Spitfire often does, while VSL in a lesser amount (again, especially the strings)

Berlin, hmmm not sure.... hit or mis even within the sections.

*Funny* thing though.. the official demos of spitfire and Berlin are *not* very emotionally triggering me, while the VSL ones do. But with walkthroughs it's the *opposite* (for Spitfire anyway).


----------



## mybadmemory (Dec 28, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> My ears tell me: Spitfire Air sound. it's lush, filmic, warm. I think i'll go that route, listening to walktrhoughs over and over and over.. a/b comparing... Yes, VSL is detailed, has all kinds of articlulations etc. Is perhaps better programmed.. but.. the sound is somehow less appealing (especially the strings) in contrast to Spitfire.
> 
> So yes.. sound is very important, it should trigger you emotionally. Spitfire often does, while VSL in a lesser amount (again, especially the strings)
> 
> Berlin, hmmm not sure.... hit or mis even within the sections.


And apart from the pure sound, the other important factor is how the playability and workflow works for you. I love the sound of some developers but cannot seem to play or get along with how to program them, whereas other developers just gel with my expectations of playing and programming.


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 28, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> And apart from the pure sound, the other important factor is how the playability and workflow works for you. I love the sound of some developers but cannot seem to play or get along with how to program them, whereas other developers just gel with my expectations of playing and programming.


Absolutely! 
Workflow is very important for me. (as my example of CSS's workflow doesn't gel with my workflow, example demonstrated)
However, seeing how the libs work, SSO should work for me, same for VSL and Berlin..
But... sonically, just isolating sections/solo instruments via walktroughs, i lean towards spitfire.
However, the official Demos compositions, somehow they sound like a cacaphony, going all over the place compositions. Like: let's put all articulations in there at random parts, and see how it sounds. 
While VSL e.g. has more carefully orchestrated compositions.
So for purely demos considered, VSL wins (even with a lesser appealing strings) overall.
But going isolated, section wise or solo (through walkthroughs), Spitfire wins

Unfortunately i couldn't find many end user demos of purely SSO bundle (being it chamber or symphonic strings), there is (often) always additional libs added somehow. E.g. layering with Albions or HOB or whatever. It becomes harder to hear, what lib does what sonically...
I wonder why that is? is it because they cannot get it to sound right? is it because they can (because they have them laying around)? is it because of workflow convenience?


----------



## Zanshin (Dec 28, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> i lean towards spitfire.
> However, the official Demos compositions, somehow they sound like a cacaphony, going all over the place compositions.


Hmm. I have this sad habit of buying SF libraries after listening to an Andy Blaney demo for it. Are you skipping those? Sometimes what inspires in the demos doesn't inspire under the fingers though. 

I like the raw play throughs best, you'll often hear what a library sounds like when it's not played to (like notes too fast for it's legato to handle).


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 28, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> Hmm. I have this sad habit of buying SF libraries after listening to an Andy Blaney demo for it. Are you skipping those? Sometimes what inspires in the demos doesn't inspire under the fingers though.
> 
> I like the raw play throughs best, you'll often hear what a library sounds like when it's not played to (like notes too fast for it's legato to handle).


yes, ofcourse i've listened to andy blaney's work, and it's top notch for sure in terms of virtuosity.
But somehow, there are serveral demos that are just not very structured, making it seem like a little "cramp as much articulations and styles in one demo as possible" type.
well, maybe it's just because he appears to like fast motives more than anything.. and it follows up very quickly... not the soaring, more legato pieces with structure. (like many movie scores are: a melody that sticks, instead or unstructured motives following eachother one after another)
Again, it's impressive for sure, it shows that i can do fast passages very well. but... the slower things i miss. And demos done with slower passages, not by blaney, are often not my style.


----------



## Scamper (Dec 28, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> Unfortunately i couldn't find many end user demos of purely SSO bundle (being it chamber or symphonic strings), there is (often) always additional libs added somehow. E.g. layering with Albions or HOB or whatever. It becomes harder to hear, what lib does what sonically...


For this, I'd really recommend @Vladimir Bulaev and his soundcloud.
Lots of well made demos there for purely the SSO or Berlin Orchestra, even the same tracks made with both, so it's great to compare.









Vladimir Bulaev


Composer & arranger




soundcloud.com


----------



## Quantum Leap (Dec 28, 2021)

I created Hollywood Orchestra, so take what I say with a grain of salt. FYI, I’ve been on this forum speaking honestly for years and I’ve made a lot of people angry. And I’ve said some stupid things. 
I am first and foremost a composer. Two Steps From Hell is my focus. We use mostly live orchestra, but I put a lot of effort into the mock-ups and mix some of it into the finals. I’ve added a lot of libraries to my template in the past couple of years. This is my take:

BBC is like the new EWQLSO. Good starter orchestra. Sounds very good, but is lacking a lot in dynamics etc. Legatos are not that great. 

Spitfire in general is great sounding. However, it is not for the composer who writes fast paced very dynamic music. If you write in a more subdued or grand fashion, it’s excellent. maybe the best? I personally don’t hear enough legato transitions and that bothers me. I heard that complaint about Hollywood Orchestra for years and was frankly surprised when I heard that Spitfire has less audible legato.

also just bought Soltice which is a cool concept And inspiring. 

I like the Berlin woodwinds a lot! The other sections are just a bit small for my taste, but still excellent. You can’t go wrong here unless your focus is epic.

I love all the ARK libraries. It’s a big mess of stuff with tons of flaws, but it’s beefy and cool. Great as an enhancement. Epic. having some small issues with Sine, but nothing like the old PLAY. Lol. 

Holkenberg Brass is also a nice beefy brass library for epic music. Does huge only.

What you have to understand about VSL is this: The close sound means the sounds have an unnatural balance across the frequency spectrum. This is why some mixes sound terrible and some sound good. You have to compensate for this issue and this can be difficult when writing certain pieces of music. Balancing brass is 10 times easier in something like Spitfire. That being said, if you are a tweak head and like precision and you are a good mixer and orchestrator, VSL is an insane tool. What an effort they have made. And they started the whole legato revolution. It’s a scalpel, not a butter knife.

CSS seems like a good library. I don’t have it. Too similar to HO. 

I am always disappointed by the 8dio stuff I try. Brass is big but messy. Tried lots of choirs and it seems like they should have made less of them and focused more. I am sure, however, that I could make great music if that’s all I had. I’m nitpicking. Troels makes good music with it.

Hans Zimmer Strings is very nice for grand and soft. Amazing sound. Big. Very well thought out and well organized like all the spitfire. but once again where is the legato? It’s hard to hear. Hans doesn’t really care much about legato because he gets that with the live orchestra.

I absolutely love Tokyo Scoring Strings for a tight studio orchestra sound. Plays well. Great! Good player and well thought through.

for pianos, I like Piano Noire and Ravencroft 275. And I still use EWQL Pianos. They are not the most precise but they are warm and dynamic. A lot of other pianos sound bright when you play soft. I hate that. Doesn’t feel like a real piano. They advertise a million dynamics but they all sound the same to me. Those pianos only work for classical fast music. 

Hollywood Orchestra OPUS edition. Well we finally have a really good player. Took a while. I believe that, all around, this is still the best orchestra there is. If Spitfire played faster and had more legato, it would be number 1. The fact that East West blows HO out for low prices online shouldn’t distract you from what it is.

Here is a list of the things that could be better in HOOPUS:
1. I always felt like the basses could be bigger and beefier sounding. The room at EW is great for maintaining a clear orchestra sound, but this doesn’t benefit the basses. Not as epic as the rest of the library.
2. I wish there were some tighter cello shorts and slurred shorts like the violins would be nice. Those slurred shorts in the violins are gold and many doesn’t realize how magical they are In context. 
3. I don’t love the solo oboe, and solo clarinet. 
4. I am a cymbal freak and want more cymbals and piatti. 
5. Not sure why but I don’t love the harp. It’s good but it’s not magical. 
6. New 2 bones are very good. Old 3 bones are very good and very epic but the bass bone is mixed in. Neither are perfect for all occasions. 
7. Old 2 trumpets are crap. New 2 trumpets are much better. 
8. Generally there could be more round robins, more lengths, more dynamics and more consistency in all the shorts. But let’s face it. This is the same in all libraries. And HOOPUS is better than most. 
9. Flute 1 is not great. Flute 2 is great IMO.
im sure there is plenty more, but we did fix quite a bit with the OPUS version.

So why do I think that all around HOOPUS is still number one? it’s just my opinion. It works for me as my core, better than the others. Strings and brass are mostly excellent.


----------



## Trevor Meier (Dec 28, 2021)

Quantum Leap said:


> I created Hollywood Orchestra, so take what I say with a grain of salt. FYI, I’ve been on this forum speaking honestly for years and I’ve made a lot of people angry. And I’ve said some stupid things.
> I am first and foremost a composer. Two Steps From Hell is my focus. We use mostly live orchestra, but I put a lot of effort into the mock-ups and mix some of it into the finals. I’ve added a lot of libraries to my template in the past couple of years. This is my take:
> 
> BBC is like the new EWQLSO. Good starter orchestra. Sounds very good, but is lacking a lot in dynamics etc. Legatos are not that great.
> ...


Thanks for the candor Nick. It’s helpful to hear your perspective all in one place.

HOOPUS is a huge achievement. Such a dramatic improvement over the previous generation, and worth a solid look if you’re just starting out and like the sound. 

I haven’t taken the leap because of all the BS around the marketing and upgrades etc. And it took so long to upgrade Play that even though my first big purchase was HS Diamond (when it was $799 *on sale*) I’d moved on to Spitfire as my bread and butter. 

Too bad really… it was a sad day when I pulled HO Brass & Strings out of my template. Love the sound, but I was sure glad to be rid of Play.


----------



## osterdamus (Dec 28, 2021)

lgchess2 said:


> Pick up some VSL vouchers and grab the woodwinds. They’re on an intro sale until the 3rd. You’ll save around 45%. If you like them grab some more vouchers. If not return it.


Hold on, where do I get these 45% off vouchers, you say? Or am i misunderstanding?


----------



## Rudianos (Dec 28, 2021)

osterdamus said:


> Hold on, where do I get these 45% off vouchers, you say? Or am i misunderstanding?


current into price + the 25% you save buying vouchers first gets about 45% off


----------



## osterdamus (Dec 28, 2021)

Rudianos said:


> current into price + the 25% you save buying vouchers first gets about 45% off


Ah, got it, thanks.


----------



## Ben (Dec 28, 2021)

Quantum Leap said:


> What you have to understand about VSL is this: The close sound means the sounds have an unnatural balance across the frequency spectrum. This is why some mixes sound terrible and some sound good. You have to compensate for this issue and this can be difficult when writing certain pieces of music.


That might be true for the VI Series, when not using MIR Pro or MIRx (where EQing is applied if you use one of the instrument profiles), or the SYNCHRON-ized variants.

But, the new Synchron Series was recorded in a scoring Stage (Synchron Stage), with multiple mics. It also provides ready to use mixer presets, so you can start right out of the box, or you can fully customize how the orchestra sounds 
And now, with the release of Synchron Woodwinds and Synchron Harp all main orchestral instruments are finally available!


----------



## osterdamus (Dec 28, 2021)

Ben said:


> That might be true for the VI Series, when not using MIR Pro or MIRx (where EQing is applied if you use one of the instrument profiles), or the SYNCHRON-ized variants.
> 
> But, the new Synchron Series was recorded in a scoring Stage (Synchron Stage), with multiple mics. It also provides ready to use mixer presets, so you can start right out of the box, or you can fully customize how the orchestra sounds
> And now, with the release of Synchron Woodwinds and Synchron Harp all main orchestral instruments are finally available!


Now that you mention MIR: I don't have any experience with VSL instruments or MIR, so I'm wondering how does the built-in instrument placement (stage, panning etc.) play with MIR? If Violins 1 are already panned left etc, wouldn't adding MIR just be adding more placement on top, perhaps with an unnatural sound as a result? Or would one remove all such placement (if possible?), and place them in MIR instead?


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 28, 2021)

Quantum Leap said:


> Hollywood Orchestra OPUS edition. Well we finally have a really good player. Took a while. I believe that, all around, this is still the best orchestra there is. If Spitfire played faster and had more legato, it would be number 1. The fact that East West blows HO out for low prices online shouldn’t distract you from what it is.
> 
> Here is a list of the things that could be better in HOOPUS:
> 1. I always felt like the basses could be bigger and beefier sounding. The room at EW is great for maintaining a clear orchestra sound, but this doesn’t benefit the basses. Not as epic as the rest of the library.
> ...


Hi @Quantum Leap ,

I just wanted to tell you how wonderful HOOPUS sounds, and the new OPUS player imho. is amazing, I would say the best two sample players in the industry are EW OPUS, and VSL Synchron Players. OPUS Player is so efficient, fast, a joy to work with, and look at its GUI. I think it is a huge step forward from PLAY.

The Strings and Brass, even Perc. of HOOPUS are wonderful. The winds sections are good, but there is still more room for improvements when it comes to the Woodwind Soloists.

Question for you, are there any plans to further improve HOOPUS in the future with new content ? i.e. some of the points you mentioned above that you wish were better in HOOPUS ? also further improvements, or new Solo Woodwinds ?

Maybe you could develop additional expansions for HOOPUS in the future ?

New EW Libraries, i.e. RA2, SILK 2, and possibly other additions you find will enhance your EW library catalog ?

I would appreciate your feedback on this.

Happy Holidays & New Year to you. 🎅🎄✨

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## Ben (Dec 28, 2021)

osterdamus said:


> Or would one remove all such placement (if possible?), and place them in MIR instead?


Yes. If possible reverb and placement information should be removed, and the signal should be centered. MIR works best with dry/dry-ish recorded samples / sound-sources (so you can easily use it with the VI Series, as well as the SYNCHRON-ized libraries, but it's not intended to be used with Synchron (Piano/Harp) Libraries)

When placing a sound source in MIR it selects the matching information for the selected position and stereo width and rotation, and creates a matching IR for this sound-source + pans the original signal as well (it also considers things like the fully customizable virtual mics, the secondary room mic, and optionally also calculates the distance depending volume change and air-absorption).
When used within VE/VEP MIR offers special integration with the VI / SYNCHRON-ized instruments, and can automatically select the right instrument directivity profile, volume, and EQ settings.
But you can use it with any other sound source as well, if you set the right settings yourself.

Rule of thumb: If you would consider adding an IR reverb to a sound source after removing the additional reverb, you can probably use it in MIR.


----------



## osterdamus (Dec 28, 2021)

Ben said:


> Yes. If possible reverb and placement information should be removed, and the signal should be centered. MIR works best with dry/dry-ish recorded samples / sound-sources (so you can easily use it with the VI Series, as well as the SYNCHRON-ized libraries, but it's not intended to be used with Synchron (Piano/Harp) Libraries)
> 
> When placing a sound source in MIR it selects the matching information for the selected position and stereo width and rotation, and creates a matching IR for this sound-source + pans the original signal as well (it also considers things like the fully customizable virtual mics, the secondary room mic, and optionally also calculates the distance depending volume change and air-absorption).
> When used within VE/VEP MIR offers special integration with the VI / SYNCHRON-ized instruments, and can automatically select the right instrument directivity profile, volume, and EQ settings.
> ...


Sounds great.

I saw a video using MIR to place a jazz band on stage (upright bass, drum battery, guitar, piano, all non-VSL), and MIR / IR seems like a good way to go for a natural, acoustic sound... maybe...

But then I wondered how I'd be able to place a chamber size string section as backing (thinking about going with VSL Elite Strings here, still undecided which is why I'm following this thread) in the same room. But as I understand your answer, there's some smart integration between VSL instruments and MIR, which makes their placement easier?


----------



## sumskilz (Dec 28, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> *Funny* thing though.. the official demos of spitfire and Berlin are *not* very emotionally triggering me, while the VSL ones do. But with walkthroughs it's the *opposite* (for Spitfire anyway).


That's because they are always very excited to tell you about it and just jump right in.


----------



## Ben (Dec 28, 2021)

osterdamus said:


> But as I understand your answer, there's some smart integration between VSL instruments and MIR, which their placement easier?


Yes, for certain rooms there are also placement presets available; for the Synchron Stage there are also Synchron Library compatible presets available. You can theoretically also apply these presets to any other sound source, but I recommend to disable the EQ profile for these sound sources.

I'm happy to answer any additional questions that you, or anyone else has regarding MIR.
But we probably should move the discussion to a MIR related thread like this one, so we don't derail this thread further: https://vi-control.net/community/th...olidays-up-to-40-off-all-mir-products.118709/


----------



## Casiquire (Dec 28, 2021)

osterdamus said:


> Now that you mention MIR: I don't have any experience with VSL instruments or MIR, so I'm wondering how does the built-in instrument placement (stage, panning etc.) play with MIR? If Violins 1 are already panned left etc, wouldn't adding MIR just be adding more placement on top, perhaps with an unnatural sound as a result? Or would one remove all such placement (if possible?), and place them in MIR instead?


Use your ears. If I'm using instruments recorded in situ, I'll often extend the panning in MIR much wider to keep more of the original room response in, and then lower the wet slider for that particular instrument. I try not to get too caught up in the logic of MIR and just go by my ears


----------



## Tralen (Dec 28, 2021)

Fair to say that HOOPUS is the other choice that offers a refund policy, since you can effectively just terminate your subscription.


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 28, 2021)

Tralen said:


> Fair to say that HOOPUS is the other choice that offers a refund policy, since you can effectively just terminate your subscription.


refund means getting investment back, terminating subscription is stopping future payments. The invested money won't get refunded.  technical differences: refunding and termination


----------



## Tralen (Dec 28, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> refund means getting investment back, terminating subscription is stopping future payments. The invested money won't get refunded.  technical differences: refunding and termination


Technically yes. But if you take in consideration that the retail price of HOOPUS is $499, by spending just $19 in the subscription, you are essentially getting the benefit that a refund would provide.


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 28, 2021)

Tralen said:


> Technically yes. But if you take in consideration that the retail price of HOOPUS is $499, by spending just $19 in the subscription, you are essentially getting the benefit that a refund would provide.


yes, ok, for one month indeed it is pocket change money to invest. (aka you won't feel it missing)


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 28, 2021)

Very nice for Nick to provide his honest thoughts - both as a developer (haven’t seen other developers even acknowledge other libraries let alone provide their honest perspective) but just as importantly, as a working composer who relies on samples.

Also, Spitfire has some of the best demo composers around - but they do have a particular style (media composition feel). VSL also has some great demo composers (Guy), but they approach things more from a classical perspective (VSL always has demos from classical repertoire which other developers don’t even attempt). Both very valid approaches - and probably speak to the philosophies and strengths of each developer.


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 28, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Very nice for Nick to provide his honest thoughts - both as a developer (haven’t seen other developers even acknowledge other libraries let alone provide their honest perspective) but just as importantly, as a working composer who relies on samples.
> 
> Also, Spitfire has some of the best demo composers around - but they do have a particular style (media composition feel). VSL also has some great demo composers (Guy), but they approach things more from a classical perspective (VSL always has demos from classical repertoire which other developers don’t even attempt). Both very valid approaches - and probably speak to the philosophies and strengths of each developer.


Mr. @Guy Bacos and Mr. Andy Blaney are wizards getting amazing realism out of the libraries they make demos for.
Truely amazing what they do. Would be awesome if there would be a course of sorts from either one on how to approach it, see how they like to work/sequence it. A piece/mockup from a to z so to speak. @Ben @Spitfire Team : hint hint hint


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 28, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> Mr. @Guy Bacos and Mr. Andy Blaney are wizards getting amazing realism out of the libraries they make demos for.
> Truely amazing what they do. Would be awesome if their would be a course of sorts from either one on how to approach it, like they to. A piece/mockup from a to z so to speak. @Ben @Spitfire Team : hint hint hint


Guy just very kindly shared his sheet music and MIDI for his latest Synchron Harp piece.


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 28, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Guy just very kindly shared his sheet music and MIDI for his latest Synchron Harp piece.


Oh! nice 
However, i would like to see them in action, making the mockups. Them explaining how to handle the lib in question (or libs), so you understand the choices they make and why. Etc


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 28, 2021)

UPDATE:
bought myself SSO, both versions (symphonic strings and chamber) in PRO, the harp, the solo violin and cello. (concert piano and percussion i already had)






Received the download is ready mails too.. so.. it's downloading time.

thanks you all for your suggestions, tips and feedback. Really appreciated, VIC is such a nice community of musicians helping out.


----------



## Trevor Meier (Dec 28, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> UPDATE:
> bought myself SSO, both versions (symphonic strings and chamber) in PRO, the harp, the solo violin and cello. (concert piano and percussion i already had)


Congrats!!


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 28, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> I’m jealous 😎😃


Had money left from last year holiday budget and saved up for this year.. so i have generated some budget


----------



## Casiquire (Dec 28, 2021)

Those are some great sounding libraries. Now that you've decided, really throw yourself into those libraries and don't think about what's missing and what other libraries you need to get to supplement this or that...just learn all the ins and outs and what solutions work for problems you might run into most often, and enjoy it!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 28, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> UPDATE:
> bought myself SSO, both versions (symphonic strings and chamber) in PRO, the harp, the solo violin and cello. (concert piano and percussion i already had)
> 
> 
> ...


Congrats - I'll leave with you this thought (I wish I had been told something similar much earlier). Carlos Rafael Rivera mocked up the The Queen's Gambit score with the same libraries you have now (some of which is in the final soundtrack as well) - flaws and all. Think about that if you come to a point where you think you "need" another library to make music. 90% of what matters is your skills. Chasing the perfect library is a long and expensive spiral that does nothing except prevents you from writing music (which in the end, is the only thing that matters).


----------



## Scamper (Dec 28, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> UPDATE:
> bought myself SSO, both versions (symphonic strings and chamber) in PRO, the harp, the solo violin and cello. (concert piano and percussion i already had)


SSO might not be perfect, as all libraries, but there is still something special about that sound of AIR. So, if you're also drawn to it, the libraries will be that much more of a joy to use. Great choice!


----------



## Zanshin (Dec 28, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> UPDATE:
> bought myself SSO, both versions (symphonic strings and chamber) in PRO, the harp, the solo violin and cello. (concert piano and percussion i already had)
> 
> 
> ...


Congrats man


----------



## easyrider (Dec 28, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> UPDATE:
> bought myself SSO, both versions (symphonic strings and chamber) in PRO, the harp, the solo violin and cello. (concert piano and percussion i already had)
> 
> 
> ...


Might have been cheaper to buy spitfire symphonic orchestra complete…then add the chamber pro on top…


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 28, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Might have been cheaper to buy spitfire symphonic orchestra complete…then add the chamber pro on top…


Don't worry, i've tried combinations of adding to the cart. The one i finally did, was the cheapest one i got. (tried symponic complete pro, symponic pro bundle, chamber pro bundle) the differences where quite small though (max 50-ish euro's difference..)


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 28, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Those are some great sounding libraries. Now that you've decided, really throw yourself into those libraries and don't think about what's missing and what other libraries you need to get to supplement this or that...just learn all the ins and outs and what solutions work for problems you might run into most often, and enjoy it!


Yes, i am going to deep dive into these libraries and learn it inside out. Not in a rush, step by step..


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 28, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Congrats - I'll leave with you this thought (I wish I had been told something similar much earlier). Carlos Rafael Rivera mocked up the The Queen's Gambit score with the same libraries you have now (some of which is in the final soundtrack as well) - flaws and all. Think about that if you come to a point where you think you "need" another library to make music. 90% of what matters is your skills. Chasing the perfect library is a long and expensive spiral that does nothing except prevents you from writing music (which in the end, is the only thing that matters).


Yes, i saw that video too. nice to see how he did it, and what choices he made during the process.
I also noticed SSO (either everything or partitially) is being used by quite a few pro tv/movie composers (reading interviews and such, and those here on the forum ofcourse!)
I think i am set with these libs i bought for a very long time


----------



## easyrider (Dec 28, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> Don't worry, i've tried combinations of adding to the cart. The one i finally did, was the cheapest one i got. (tried symponic complete pro, symponic pro bundle, chamber pro bundle) the differences where quite small though (max 50-ish euro's difference..)


I can sleep tonight.🥰


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 28, 2021)

Scamper said:


> SSO might not be perfect, as all libraries, but there is still something special about that sound of AIR. So, if you're also drawn to it, the libraries will be that much more of a joy to use. Great choice!


Indeed, the sound is surely calling me  and indeed flawless is a myth..


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 28, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> Congrats man


Thank you


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 28, 2021)

Trevor Meier said:


> Congrats!!


Thank you


----------



## Casiquire (Dec 28, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> Yes, i am going to deep dive into these libraries and learn it inside out. Not in a rush, step by step..


Good! I only say that because of how easy it is to chase another library before even learning what you have, and that just kills all the joy of having one! Especially because you'll be so well covered, you almost never need to pick up another one.

Despite having Berlin myself, I think you chose easily the best-sounding one of the three, in fact probably the best full orchestra sound currently available at that level, period.


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 28, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> Indeed, the sound is surely calling me  and indeed flawless is a myth..


One tip: turn on the Timed RTs for the shorts (e.g., marcato and tenuto) where available. (You do this on the second page of the GUI, the page where you control the mics; select the articulation and the option should appear.) I find it helps make the shorts more controllable. But experiment with the various settings.


----------



## easyrider (Dec 28, 2021)

Spitfire Chamber and Symphonics are the Best sounding library out there IMHO

Its oozes character and tone….

Love my Spitfire Stuff….Solstice is just ACE…👍😘


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 28, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> One tip: turn on the Timed RTs for the shorts (e.g., marcato and tenuto) where available. (You do this on the second page of the GUI, the page where you control the mics; select the articulation and the option should appear.) I find it helps make the shorts more controllable. But experiment with the various settings.


Thank you for that tip.. once i have installed it all, i shall try it out. 
Any other tips, like this one, is wellcome


----------



## Aitcpiano (Dec 28, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> Thank you for that tip.. once i have installed it all, i shall try it out.
> Any other tips, like this one, is wellcome


Enjoy! Overall great choice and I do think SCS Pro and SSS are probably some of the best strings available.


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 28, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> Enjoy! Overall great choice and I do think SCS Pro and SSS are probably some of the best strings available.


Thanks you 
They are very warm in character (thanks to air lyndhurst),
my palette of orchestral genres is all covered: lush and big (sss) and detailed and personal/intimate (scs), that's why i bought them both (so i can go all kinds of ways).
best of it, since they are both recorded in the same room, with the same gear etc.. i can combine them in need (using scs as divisi e.g.) without problems


----------



## Tralen (Dec 28, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Those are some great sounding libraries. Now that you've decided, really throw yourself into those libraries and don't think about what's missing and what other libraries you need to get to supplement this or that...just learn all the ins and outs and what solutions work for problems you might run into most often, and enjoy it!


Now is the time for him to disappear and make us wonder: "what ever happened to RogiervG?"

Then he returns, Sun behind his back, in the most majestic scene (scored by himself, obviously).


----------



## Zanshin (Dec 28, 2021)

Tralen said:


> Now is the time for him to disappear and make us wonder: "what ever happened to RogiervG?"
> 
> Then he returns, sun behind his back, in the most majestic scene (scored by himself, obviously).


LOL agreed. He should be woodshedding as soon as those downloads finish.


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 28, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> LOL agreed. He should be woodshedding as soon as those downloads finish.


Haha, yes, long hours of woodshedding in front of me


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 28, 2021)

Tralen said:


> Now is the time for him to disappear and make us wonder: "what ever happened to RogiervG?"
> 
> Then he returns, Sun behind his back, in the most majestic scene (scored by himself, obviously).


I hope so


----------



## RSK (Dec 28, 2021)

muk said:


> For music in the style of John Williams I would choose the Cinematic Studio Series. As that isn't an option for you, due to workflow, I would then mix an match libraries from several developers. As that isn't an option for you, due to see above, I would then, without enthusiasm, choose Spitfire SSO. Soundwise that's a great option. For classical music, you will be missing choice of articulations and consistency though.


Out of curiosity, what articulations do you think are missing from SSO? The strings in particular have a long list.


----------



## muk (Dec 29, 2021)

RSK said:


> Out of curiosity, what articulations do you think are missing from SSO? The strings in particular have a long list.


The strings are good in that regard. Symphonic and Chamber Strings both have as comprehensive an articulation list as the competition. It's only more lengths of détachés that would be very useful for classical music. Sadly, developers do rarely sample them. Anyway, it's the woodwinds and brass of the Spitfire Symphony Orchestra that is a bit short on articulations, especially for classical music. The clarinet, for example, only has legato, sustain, and 'short staccato' as bread and butter articulations. And then a few effects (flutter, multitongue, and trills). That's limiting its purposes quite drastically, I find.


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 29, 2021)

Update 2:
I couldn't resist some extra's:

*Hans Zimmer Piano*: Needed a better piano than "SF orchestral grand piano".
Bonus: HZP is also recorded in air lyndhurst

And two others type of libs, that (type i mean not specifically these two per se) are often overlooked when doing classical music in the soundtrack/media genres: a synth and additional percussion 
*Phobos* (rythmic synth) I find it very wicked/weird/complex yet beautiful sounding
and *Hammers* (extra percussion that is beyond traditional) the sounds are amazing as extra perc.

AND a 2TB SSD (Samsung), because i came to realize: more space needed for all the libraries (over 1 TB needed): should arrive tomorrow by delivery

And nothing more to add (seriously)..
just missed these extra's to complete the principle orchestral needs/wants.


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 29, 2021)

muk said:


> The strings are good in that regard. Symphonic and Chamber Strings both have as comprehensive an articulation list as the competition. It's only more lengths of détachés that would be very useful for classical music. Sadly, developers do rarely sample them. Anyway, it's the woodwinds and brass of the Spitfire Symphony Orchestra that is a bit short on articulations, especially for classical music. The clarinet, for example, only has legato, sustain, and 'short staccato' as bread and butter articulations. And then a few effects (flutter, multitongue, and trills). That's limiting its purposes quite drastically, I find.


i find the solo clarinet is the weakest instrument of SSW. The oboe also lacks in articulations but for whatever reason is much more usable. Indeed I rather like it. The English horn inexplicably lacks trills. Really weird design choice. 

For me SSB doesn’t have enough dynamic layers for the shorts. I’m forever bumping up against a dynamic layer boundary and then encountering an abrupt change of timbre that is less than ideal. But I also haven’t found a brass library I like better. I supplement the SSB trombone with the JXL solo trombone which I find an excellent complement especially on the shorts. But I still like the tone of SSB better. I’ve looked at Berlin brass and will likely pick up the mutes, but for whatever reason the sound of BB Main doesn’t speak to me the way other OT libraries do. Likely I’ll wait until SF AR modular is out to fully reassess.


----------



## Noeticus (Dec 29, 2021)

The "Spitfire Hans Zimmer Piano*" *sounds nice, BUT has VERY limited dynamics.

I no longer use it because of the limited velocity layers.

:(


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 29, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> The "Spitfire Hans Zimmer Piano*" *sounds nice, BUT has VERY limited dynamics.
> 
> I no longer use it because of the limited velocity layers.
> 
> :(


Might be, I'm not going to do a piano concerto thingy, where i need a lots of dynamics 
i just need a nice warm grand piano sound (that fits the orchestra, room wise).
And i like the tone, the atmosphere it gives, from what i heard.


----------



## Noeticus (Dec 29, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> Might be, I'm not going to do a piano concerto thingy, where i need a lots of dynamics
> i just need a nice warm grand piano sound (that fits the orchestra, room wise).


Sounds good, but it really has very limited dynamics, like maybe 8 layers or ? 

I use Pianoteq (127 layers) or...






BÖSENDORFER IMPERIAL - Vienna Symphonic Library


The Bösendorfer Concert Grand 290 Imperial represents the pinnacle of the famed Austrian piano manufacturer’s precious heritage. Its extraordinary, orchestral sound is rich in expression and resonance, thanks to the enormous resonance board and the nine additional sub-bass notes, extending the...




www.vsl.co.at


----------



## moon (Dec 29, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> Might be, I'm not going to do a piano concerto thingy, where i need a lots of dynamics
> i just need a nice warm grand piano sound (that fits the orchestra, room wise).
> And i like the tone, the atmosphere it gives, from what i heard.


Well, if you ever want the exact same piano recorded in the exact same room, but significantly cheaper, smaller, and generally more highly regarded here, check out this VI.


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 29, 2021)

moon said:


> Well, if you ever want the exact same piano recorded in the exact same room, but significantly cheaper, smaller, and generally more highly regarded here, check out this VI.


Maybe in the future.. for now i am set with a nice sounding piano


----------



## easyrider (Dec 29, 2021)

My choice would have been Omnisphere for synth Hybrid and anything in between and Keyscape.

HZ Piano is overpriced imo even on sale and BT Phobos is abandonware….

Not to Diss your choice if you’re happy, just my 2cents.


----------



## Bman70 (Dec 29, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> UPDATE:
> bought myself SSO, both versions (symphonic strings and chamber) in PRO, the harp, the solo violin and cello. (concert piano and percussion i already had)
> 
> 
> ...



Congrats! Are those prices Educational or some kind of bundle completion discounts? It looks like SSSP is about 20% off the Winter Sale price.


----------



## markleake (Dec 29, 2021)

moon said:


> Well, if you ever want the exact same piano recorded in the exact same room, but significantly cheaper, smaller, and generally more highly regarded here, check out this VI.


Yes, Signatue Grand is a real gem. For anyone tossing up whether to get HZP, it has a very mixed reception. I don't think it's worth it even on sale. Most people would be better off with the Signature Grand... one of the best pianos for what it does. A favourite around here on VI-C.


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 29, 2021)

Bman70 said:


> Congrats! Are those prices Educational or some kind of bundle completion discounts? It looks like SSSP is about 20% off the Winter Sale price.


Thanks 
I did a bundle indeed, non edu (i'm no student), tried the three options (different orders and combi's of SSO PRO, SSO SCS PRO and SSO Complete PRO.. untill i found one that was the cheapest option: it does make a difference which product you add in what order)


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 29, 2021)

easyrider said:


> My choice would have been Omnisphere for synth Hybrid and anything in between and Keyscape.
> 
> HZ Piano is overpriced imo even on sale and BT Phobos is abandonware….
> 
> Not to Diss your choice if you’re happy, just my 2cents.


Omnisphere is on the list... but not now. Since SF has a sale going on, at the moment.. i went for that first. I haven't seen omnisphere discounted or on sale, looking back a few years. (or not really enough discounted). So i can buy that one, whenever i feel it's time for it.

Phobos has something, i haven't heard before. It's not a standard thingy you often hear with rythm synths.. But i will find out soon enough once i have installed it, if i will use it often or sparingly.

HZP, it's not cheap, true. However, the sound and room ambience, well.. i like the sound.
Signature grand, i've looked into it.. and it sounds a bit straight in your face, less room information.
It's cheap indeed.. maybe i will add it, for a different tone use.


----------



## easyrider (Dec 29, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> Omnisphere is on the list... but not now. Since SF has a sale going on, at the moment.. i went for that first. I haven't seen omnisphere discounted or on sale, looking back a few years. (or not really enough discounted). So i can buy that one, whenever i feel it's time for it.


The way to get Ominisphere is through Ebay using a 20% discount code. Music matter is the seller….let eBay take the hit….👍



RogiervG said:


> Phobos has something, i haven't heard before. It's not a standard thingy you often hear with rythm synths.. But i will find out soon enough once i have installed it, if i will use it often or sparingly.


You will use it…It’s just that SF seem to have abandoned it.


RogiervG said:


> HZP, it's not cheap, true. However, the sound and room ambience, well.. i like the sound.
> Signature grand, i've looked into it.. and it sounds a bit straight in your face, less room information.
> It's cheap indeed.. maybe i will add it, for a different tone use.


Pianos are subjective….but once you have Keyscape your GAS will be cured for pianos imo. Its amazing.

Just so You know, SF will have a Jan sale, Easter sale, spring sale, summer sale BF sale and winter sale…😂


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 29, 2021)

UPDATE 3:

Bought Signature Grand.. (for that little money... and the positive feedback on it.. and advice here.. it was a no brainer to add this one too)


----------



## pranic (Dec 29, 2021)

easyrider said:


> My choice would have been Omnisphere for synth Hybrid and anything in between and Keyscape.
> 
> HZ Piano is overpriced imo even on sale and BT Phobos is abandonware….
> 
> Not to Diss your choice if you’re happy, just my 2cents.


I would be super excited if they offered the Phobos engine and allowed your own samples (or started to offer add-on packs). However, I think Spitfire is limited to what they can do with the instrument based on agreements made with BT (at least I remember seeing that somewhere in the help forum).

Honestly, Phobos is a very unique instrument that works really well (once you figure it all out). There's a lot going on in there that is really awesome, so you shouldn't be at all concerned about your Phobos purchase @RogiervG !!!

Looks like you caught a great haul!


----------



## Johnny (Dec 29, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Congrats - I'll leave with you this thought (I wish I had been told something similar much earlier). Carlos Rafael Rivera mocked up the The Queen's Gambit score with the same libraries you have now (some of which is in the final soundtrack as well) - flaws and all. Think about that if you come to a point where you think you "need" another library to make music. 90% of what matters is your skills. Chasing the perfect library is a long and expensive spiral that does nothing except prevents you from writing music (which in the end, is the only thing that matters).


Can't agree more! I am not embarrassed to say that I still use a large chunk of the EW Hollywood series (Mainly Brass and Strings) in my everyday work flow. Of course I layer with other developer products, but I've "never" yet to date, ever had a complaint about sample quality- ever. I've never been told that my deliveries do not meet any less of a production standard to today's world of expectations, and really great point made on this thread and I'll preface this in the words of heard many times throughout my life from others, "It is not the tools you have, it is how you use them." I've personally never "not" been satisfied with the results in a mix using EW HW Strings and EW HW Brass exclusively for my bread and butter libraries. (And now Opus upgrades) As Nick mentioned, they are in NO WAY perfect, and there are flaws in every library, but again? It really comes down to how you use them. I'm happy the OP went the spitfire route, and I'm excited to hear great things in them in the near future with all of these goodies! I think this thread shows something I very much enjoy seeing in the world today, (Especially during these times) that although we each have our own personal library preferences and musical/aesthetical differences? We are all in the same industry together, and this thread displays this in the most productive and positive way that I've seen in a long time around these parts! So congrats on the Spitfire purchase my friend! And Happy New Year! Please post anything you wish to share in the future and I look forward to hearing any or all of it! All of the best in the coming New Year : )


----------



## QuiteAlright (Dec 29, 2021)

Quantum Leap said:


> I created Hollywood Orchestra, so take what I say with a grain of salt. FYI, I’ve been on this forum speaking honestly for years and I’ve made a lot of people angry. And I’ve said some stupid things.
> I am first and foremost a composer. Two Steps From Hell is my focus. We use mostly live orchestra, but I put a lot of effort into the mock-ups and mix some of it into the finals. I’ve added a lot of libraries to my template in the past couple of years. This is my take:
> 
> BBC is like the new EWQLSO. Good starter orchestra. Sounds very good, but is lacking a lot in dynamics etc. Legatos are not that great.
> ...


Thanks for sharing this. I found it pretty valuable and it's good to see your thoughts on both the strengths and weaknesses of each option.


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 30, 2021)

Johnny said:


> Can't agree more! I am not embarrassed to say that I still use a large chunk of the EW Hollywood series (Mainly Brass and Strings) in my everyday work flow. Of course I layer with other developer products, but I've "never" yet to date, ever had a complaint about sample quality- ever. I've never been told that my deliveries do not meet any less of a production standard to today's world of expectations, and really great point made on this thread and I'll preface this in the words of heard many times throughout my life from others, "It is not the tools you have, it is how you use them." I've personally never "not" been satisfied with the results in a mix using EW HW Strings and EW HW Brass exclusively for my bread and butter libraries. (And now Opus upgrades) As Nick mentioned, they are in NO WAY perfect, and there are flaws in every library, but again? It really comes down to how you use them. I'm happy the OP went the spitfire route, and I'm excited to hear great things in them in the near future with all of these goodies! I think this thread shows something I very much enjoy seeing in the world today, (Especially during these times) that although we each have our own personal library preferences and musical/aesthetical differences? We are all in the same industry together, and this thread displays this in the most productive and positive way that I've seen in a long time around these parts! So congrats on the Spitfire purchase my friend! And Happy New Year! Please post anything you wish to share in the future and I look forward to hearing any or all of it! All of the best in the coming New Year : )


I agree: this thread is going very well, constructive, friendly and respectfully towards opinions etc.. As it should be. It's very welcome indeed.

Thank you for your kind words! 
Once i get the ropes of the libs enough to actually use with confidence, i shall post some pieces i did with them. Might take a while, there is a lot to take in and experiment with. But i have no rush... going step by step.
In advance: A happy new year to you, and all the best for you as well


----------

