# How to fix Berlin Brass



## NoamL (Jul 13, 2017)

Here is a short little piece for horns, using the sustain articulation in Berlin Brass. Please try and concentrate on all four horns.



Not a very good performance, right? The bottom horn is way too loud, and the others aren't really balanced either. It doesn't feel like four musicians listening to each other and playing together.

Now how about this:




Still not perfect, but a LOT closer. All four voices are audible throughout the dynamic range and it feels like they are moving together.

So what's the difference? 





Berlin Brass is a great idea for a library. However, being productive with it is challenging because there are 11 instruments to program (as opposed to usually 3 or 4 "instruments" when using ensemble-based brass libraries).

Let's consider the 4 horns. I want to be able to control all of them with one CC1 performance. That way, if I need to edit the performance, it can be done by editing one track instead of four.

Both the performances you just heard were created by drawing in the notes for the horns, and then drawing in one CC1 performance that controls all four horns at the same time.

As you heard, that did not give a very good result when using the library "out of the box." There are a couple of reasons. First, the library does not have rationalized dynamic layers.







The two pairs of horns recorded different dynamics, but the four layers still trigger at the same point on the modwheel. So one horn's _mezzo forte_ is another's _forte_! This makes little sense.

The second issue is that these reported dynamics are simply not accurate for the fourth horn. This horn is much louder than the other three and its lower dynamics are also too aggressive. When playing harmonies, about half the time the 4th horn pokes out and unbalances the chord. No need to pile on too much criticism here as OT have surely been aware of this issue during development and since the library's release.

So I set out to 'rationalize' the horns. I estimated (by listening) what the right CC1 value was for each dynamic, for each horn. It also required using the Soft Low Layer button, and also the Niente button for Horn 4 - otherwise Horn 4 was just too loud!

Then I drew new dynamic curves in C.A.P.S.U.L.E. so that all the horns were rationalized on the same basis. That is, CC1=50 was _mezzo-piano_ on all four horns:






The result is a far more controllable horn quartet that sounds like 4 musicians, but playing together and at the same level. The great majority of performance editing can be done on one track, and then when everything is sounding good, the CC1 region can be deployed onto the four horn tracks to do any last micro-adjustments of individual horns.

@OrchestralTools I know that the Berlin series has a philosophy against editing the samples too much, but I hope that Berlin Brass's next update will include this kind of rationalization. It could be optional, such as a "Dynamic Balance" button. 

The trumpets are very well balanced, so they wouldn't need much (any?) adjustment. The low brass are ok - definitely better than the horns - but at low dynamics, the bass trombone is a bit too overpowering (it seems to be specific to some notes? Like the low G, G#, A at the bottom of the bass staff). 

I would be happy to send the presets (.nka files) to @OrchestralTools and also to share them here on VI-C, if they grant their permission.


----------



## JohnBMears (Jul 13, 2017)

@NoamL Thank you SO much for this post. It is really really helpful to me. Being past the beginner phase but not to the advanced phase of learning how to sequence VIs, I spent many hours wondering why my strings sounded so bad. I am a 25 year brass player who majored in Trombone so when I moved to learning about programming brass (only having CineBrass & HWB) I thought my results were better, but I still believed that I couldn't get the exact sound I needed because I didn't have separate players. SO I decided to put half a house payment into Berlin Brass last year, and so far have found every one of your listed inconsistencies to be a big problem for my programming. 

Along with the RAM usage, I haven't even built a full template using BB yet. I find the trombones to be what I use the most (bed chord writing). I still lean on HWB for Horns and CineBrass for Trumpets when I need power. Once I first saw BB didn't have super intense timbral dynamics, I was bummed, but then thought "Hey that may mean it will be more consistent with equivalent dynamics in part-writing". But it has required just as much work as before, only now it needs to be on a per-track basis with 11 different parts. 

I'd be INCREDIBLY interested and grateful to glean more knowledge on how I can work your ideas into my setup. I am still green on CAPSULE- and I've followed your great work on the forums. I know you know what you're doing!!!

JOHN


----------



## wbacer (Jul 13, 2017)

I love Berlin Brass but am also bothered by the many inconsistencies. 
This is a great work around. I'm not as C.A.P.S.U.L.E literate as I'd like to be so any additional screen shots or info you could share on how you rationalized the values would be great. I have an idea on what you're doing but I'm not sure I could recreate this. I would love to learn how and use it in my work.
Thanks so much for sharing.


----------



## Architekton (Jul 14, 2017)

And not to mention phase issues on some instruments...Update is necessary!
Anyway, still def one of the best brass libraries out there, if not the best...love it!


----------



## NoamL (Jul 14, 2017)

Hi all,

Here’s a step by step, until/unless OT gives permission to share the preset files (I don't want to violate any EULA):



1. Load up the Sustain Immediate patches for each of the 4 horns.

2. For each horn, make sure "Soft Low Layer" is on (toggle is to the right)

3. For the fourth horn, also turn on “Niente." Leave it off for Horns 1, 2 and 3.






4. Click on the bottom left icon that looks like a chessboard to open up the editor. Make sure Dynamic Xfade is selected.






5. Use your mouse to see you can draw curves. Anytime you use your mouse the number in the top left says something like "#34 12" with two numbers, right? That means the 34th bar of the graph (from 1 to 127) has value 12, it’s "12 tall." The standard preset for CC1 (which you can recreate at any time by selecting Preset -> Linear Up) is for every number to be "itself tall" that is bar 34 is 34 tall, bar 62 is 62 tall, etc up to 127. We are going to change these values to *distort* at what point on the modwheel each dynamic occurs for each horn.






6. Make everything zero! Just erase the graph.






7. Being very careful, pull up the bars for 1, 25, 50, 75, 100, and 127. Until the value of each one is the value reported under “TRUE APPARENT VALUES” in the table I posted. So for example for the fourth horn: we want bar 1 to be 11 tall, we want bar 25 to be 17 tall, we want bar 50 to be 26 tall, bar 75 just be 49 tall, bar 100 should be 88, and bar 127 should be 127.






8. Now fill in the bars in between with a smooth line. This is the part that takes patience! On Mac, I use the zoom in feature (Command Option Plus to zoom in, Command Option Minus to zoom back out) so that I don't misclick on those tiny bars.






9. Save your work, using the save icon on the top right:






10. Call it something like “Horn 4 Sus Fix.”

11. You can use this preset with the following patches: Horn 4 Legato, Sustain Immediate, Sustain Soft. Anytime you load up one of these patches, first thing you should do is load the preset using the load icon (to the right of the save icon). This will make two changes to your patch: it will click the Soft Low Layer button (and also Niente button if it’s the 4th horn), and it will load up the CC1 curve you drew for that horn.

You can see how drastically the horns are edited by comparing the Horn 4 curve to the one for Horn 1:






Keep in mind my values aren't perfect, so you may want to make your own value table first by loading up the horns, writing some chords and listening carefully. *I just spent a quick afternoon on this. This rationalization only works for the Sustain patches*_ -_ the other patches like Staccato, Repetitions, etc. need their own rationalizations, that's why I hope that OT is working on their own solution for dynamic balancing.


----------



## Heinigoldstein (Jul 14, 2017)

NoamL said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Here’s a step by step, until/unless OT gives permission to share the preset files (I don't want to violate any EULA):
> 
> ...





NoamL said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Here’s a step by step, until/unless OT gives permission to share the preset files (I don't want to violate any EULA):
> 
> ...



Just one question a little out of topic. Don´t you run into trouble when you use the Niente option ? I often have weird behavior since Capsule was introduced.


----------



## X-Bassist (Jul 14, 2017)

Great Job NoamL! Capsule can be confusing at first, but after using it a while it gets easier. This short video from Orchestral Tools helps clarify some new features and hidden gems in 2.5:



And velocity adjustment is covered in this short video (@4:45):



Thanks again for the info and directions NoamL.


----------



## Pianolando (Jul 14, 2017)

Some great posts there NoamL!


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jul 14, 2017)

Awesome work @NoamL and the difference is BIG. OT should pay you to fix this for them, then send out an update.


----------



## wbacer (Jul 14, 2017)

Thanks @NoamL. 
I would not have been able to figure this out.
It wasn't even on my radar.
Great fix, thanks again for sharing.


----------



## ScoringFilm (Nov 29, 2017)

NoamL said:


> I would be happy to send the presets (.nka files) to @OrchestralTools and also to share them here on VI-C, if they grant their permission.



NoamL - Great work; there is nothing to stop you sharing the .nka files as they are simply just curve information.


----------



## DanPhaseMusic (Jun 15, 2018)

Hi Noam L

Great thread. I’m just trying to do this and was wondering what you did with the other horns ?. Did you apply the same settings to Horn 2 and leave 1 and 3 as they are ? Can you share the .nka files ? I agree with Paul. OT should pay you to sort the lib out. 

Again, great stuff and thanks for any clarification you’d be kind enough to give me. 

Cheers

Dan


----------



## jamwerks (Jun 15, 2018)

I hope OT is doing a "Revive". The horns have too much "phasing" on the cross fades.


----------



## Rasmus Hartvig (Jun 15, 2018)

I would be bummed by a "Revive" (paid update). Berlin Brass has only seen one update. That was a year and a half ago and it didn't fix most of the issues that are still keeping us from working efficiently with the library. So I'm hoping for a free update that fixes the stuff that should have worked out of the gate. I love OT and their sampling ethos, but I have to say that Berlin Brass is the one library I've bought where I've been disappointed. For other sections OT has some of the best libraries in the market - their brass lib should be one of the best too.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna (Jun 15, 2018)

My first go with BB was pretty great TBH. Though to be fair the track I wrote wasn't overly Brass complex


----------



## midi-et-quart (Jun 15, 2018)

Well such an update would be great ! Again, this library features a beautiful tone and authentic sound, which for me is the most important thing. But as with some other developers the programing part often makes it inconsistent...


----------



## NoamL (Jun 15, 2018)

DanPhaseMusic said:


> Hi Noam L
> 
> Great thread. I’m just trying to do this and was wondering what you did with the other horns ?. Did you apply the same settings to Horn 2 and leave 1 and 3 as they are ? Can you share the .nka files ? I agree with Paul. OT should pay you to sort the lib out.
> 
> ...



Hi Dan & everyone,

Given the amount of time that has passed, I too am a little frustrated about the lack of official updates.

I've attached the NKA's below as a zipfile. These just cover the legatos for Horns 1, 2, 3, 4 and Bass Trombone as that's all I bothered to create in 2017. I hoped then that it would serve as an example of how to fix it and OT would take things the rest of the way.

All I can say is that I am working on a more universal fix to this problem and many of the other issues that affect sample libraries. If you'd like to learn more, subscribe to *this thread *and keep an eye out in a few weeks.


----------



## C-Wave (Jun 15, 2018)

Funny thing I asked Tobais once when is the update coming he said but we did update right after.. so there you go 
But please don't mention Revive to OT.. it's like your're asking them to give you a paid upgrade. I am not going to pay a single penny to OT to fix a problem they created.. period! I learned my lesson from OT.. they fix a problem only to create new ones.. Sad how they approach quality control and then turn it into a feature. Far from what I dreamed OT to be. I am not going to say they're the only ones in the industry who are doing that; Spit Fire Audio set up a very bad example for the industry to follow regarding quality control (yes now you can all jump on me if you like) so I am not entirely blaming OT for this behavior.


----------



## robgb (Jun 15, 2018)

wbacer said:


> I love Berlin Brass but am also bothered by the many inconsistencies.


I find inconsistencies in nearly every sample library I buy. Which is why it galls me that they charge so much for a library. Too often, instead of receiving the Gibson Les Paul I paid for, they send me a Chibson and I have to make all kinds of adjustments to get it up to snuff...


----------



## Brian Nowak (Jun 15, 2018)

I don't know what the deal is with OT. I have a few feature issues with Ark 2 and 3 that prevent me from using it in a capacity I would like. When I first brought it up in January they said it was a priority fix. 

I asked if they had any update on the fix last month and I didn't even get a response. Just a shame QC doesn't seem as important as it used to be.


----------



## robgb (Jun 15, 2018)

Brian Nowak said:


> I asked if they had any update on the fix last month and I didn't even get a response. Just a shame QC doesn't seem as important as it used to be.


I've been waiting for the Auddict brass update that was promised awhile back and still nothing...


----------



## Brian Nowak (Jun 15, 2018)

robgb said:


> I've been waiting for the Auddict brass update that was promised awhile back and still nothing...



Yep. I guess it must just be a matter of "Well, we already have their money".

Sad.


----------



## galactic orange (Jun 15, 2018)

I’ve wanted to get Berlin Brass for a long time, but I first want to see some initiative and some more interest from OT otherwise my money will go other places. Still waiting. Even a modest update would be nice.


----------



## DanPhaseMusic (Jun 16, 2018)

NoamL said:


> Hi Dan & everyone,
> 
> Given the amount of time that has passed, I too am a little frustrated about the lack of official updates.
> 
> ...


Thanks NoamL

It’s very nice of you to share them

Cheers

Dan


----------



## mikeh-375 (Jun 16, 2018)

This is very timely for me too Noam as I was thinking about buying BB soon enough. I'll listen to your demos as part of my decision making...thanks again.


----------



## Heinigoldstein (Jun 16, 2018)

Thanks a lot for sharing !!


----------



## Heinigoldstein (Jun 20, 2018)

Hey Noam, the fix is nice and smooth, but it seems you set SV to 0 and HV to 127 in all your NKAs, which means no velocity trigger for soft and hard attack. Just in case this was done by accident.


----------



## JohnBMears (Jun 20, 2018)

Heinigoldstein said:


> Hey Noam, the fix is nice and smooth, but it seems you set SV to 0 and HV to 127 in all your NKAs, which means no velocity trigger for soft and hard attack. Just in case this was done by accident.



So what should I do if I wanted to use Noam's fix but retain use of velocity attacks for soft, immediate & accent?

Thanks for your help!

JOHN


----------



## Heinigoldstein (Jun 20, 2018)

Very easy, just load Noams nka, go to the settings page (the one with the wrench) and change the thresholds of SV and HV to your desire. You might want to save it again.


----------



## JohnBMears (Jun 20, 2018)

Heinigoldstein said:


> Very easy, just load Noams nka, go to the settings page (the one with the wrench) and change the thresholds of SV and HV to your desire. You might want to save it again.



Awesome! Thank you- works well. That 3rd Horn still blasts fff over the others though. That player gave some extra oomph at the sampling session! HAHA!


----------



## Kent (Nov 22, 2019)

NoamL said:


>



@NoamL I seem to recall you having another post or two with your dynamic equivalency charts for these and other instruments. Do you remember where they might be? Or am I just making things up?

(If you have more that you've never posted and are willing to share, too, I'm sure they'd be much appreciated around here!)


----------



## EricBarndollar (Dec 9, 2020)

Thanks @NoamL for sharing your process & balancing numbers here!

Very late addition (for anyone not using Thanos in Logic or alternate solutions) -- here's an alternative to hand drawing these curves within the Kontakt UI:

*For programmers or anyone comfortable with text editors + diff tools*, the CAPSULE preset .nka files are just text files. The tricky part is just locating which lines are for the CC1 dynamic control table. You can:

Open the default patch and save a CAPSULE preset .nka file.
Go to the CC1 control table UI and draw in all new values (_e.g._ all zeroes is easy). Save another .nka file.
Use a text diff tool to locate which lines changed between the two files you saved. You're looking for a block of 128 lines that used to be 0 1 2 3 4 ... 127 (one value per line) and has now changed. When I just did this, it was line numbers 13,314 through 13,441 -- but those might change, so check to make sure.
I did my own calculations for volume correction in a spreadsheet, so that I ended up with a table of input CC1 value and output CC1 value columns that I wanted for each instrument. Something like this:






Then I copied the Output CC values column into the .nka file to replace the original 0 1 2 ... 127 sequence.

That all may sound more or less tedious than the original hand drawing approach, depending on your comfort with text editors + spreadsheets, but hope that helps someone.

(And of course, maybe OT will surprise us and have done some re-balancing as part of the impending port to their SINE player, making this all moot).


----------



## FrozenIcicle (Dec 25, 2021)

Did this ever get fixed in SINE?


----------



## samuelpksmith (Mar 14, 2022)

Hello!

I'm using OT Berlin Flagship series to compose a film score right now and the velocity/dynamic curves in the trombones are unbearable. I came across your post from quite some time ago where you rationalised the velocity curves in c.a.p.s.u.l.e (which I'm not familiar with, but I assume is similar to kontakt/SINE player). Have you developed such a thing for the SINE player release? And if so, would you be willing to share? Otherwise I'd love if you could just point me in the right direction of how to perform such a task in SINE player!



NoamL said:


> Here is a short little piece for horns, using the sustain articulation in Berlin Brass. Please try and concentrate on all four horns.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Getsumen (Mar 14, 2022)

samuelpksmith said:


> Hello!
> 
> I'm using OT Berlin Flagship series to compose a film score right now and the velocity/dynamic curves in the trombones are unbearable. I came across your post from quite some time ago where you rationalised the velocity curves in c.a.p.s.u.l.e (which I'm not familiar with, but I assume is similar to kontakt/SINE player). Have you developed such a thing for the SINE player release? And if so, would you be willing to share? Otherwise I'd love if you could just point me in the right direction of how to perform such a task in SINE player!


Load the instrument you want to edit

Go to your SINE options and to the controller map. Under the Dynamics tab click Curve






And now comes the hellish part, you'll need to modify the curve table to reflect something similar to what

@NoamL did





He has a post on the first page of this thread that guides you through the process


Once you have your correct curve you'll probably want to save this




And now whenever you want to load your rationalized instrument you'll load this preset.

A few things - the curve is very very finicky and frankly hard to modify. If you, or someone else decides to this.... good luck!

You may however find @EricBarndollar's advice useful as well.
.otsave files are just json files and thus you can modify them with any text editor may or may not be easier than hand drawing.

Just follow a similar process. Load the instrument, then save that preset. Next open the otsave file and hand modify the values 

Seems to that you'll want to head over to whatever section is assigned CC 1




(Looks to be line 29 by default) and then modify the values to whatever the corrected value curve should be)


Edit: I forgot that mentioning people probably gives them a notification as well... duh. Hopefully, you guys don't mind! Sorry! While you're being bugged by me though if you have any additional info on this please drop it  I don't have BB myself so this is just semi guesswork on my end but this seems to me how one would do it in SINE?


----------



## NoamL (Mar 14, 2022)

Yes, please ignore my advice from years ago. The CAPSULE interface is just too fiddly and maddening to edit. It's a tiny graphical representation of an array with 127 discrete members. 

The best way to approach this problem if you want to solve it in CAPSULE is to go right to the code for the array like Eric smartly did!


----------



## samuelpksmith (Mar 15, 2022)

Wow guys thanks so much for such quick responses. You rock! I guess I'll give editing the code a shot at some point soon. A quick follow up - if I duplicate that file so I have the un-edited original somewhere, I can always just pop that back in place if my changes are horrific, right?


----------



## Snarf (Mar 15, 2022)

samuelpksmith said:


> A quick follow up - if I duplicate that file so I have the un-edited original somewhere, I can always just pop that back in place if my changes are horrific, right?


Yes, just rename it back to the original name.


----------



## tonio_ (Apr 25, 2022)

Hey guys, just curious as to whether modifying the Dynamics curve in SINE also affects the Velocity for short notes. Anyone know?


----------

