# Whatever happened to VSL?



## Phryq (Mar 24, 2017)

Their site is still up https://www.vsl.co.at

and it looks like they have some newish VSTi

https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Winds_Complete/Historic_Winds_I#!Sample_Content

but no info about things like velocity layers, legato etc.

They used to be the top of the industry... so what's up? I like their philosophy of anechoic recordings and dimension strings being 8 total separate instruments.


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## muk (Mar 24, 2017)

They are very active still, with new libraries being released regularly. The newest development is that they built a new studio, the 'Synchron Stage'. They do live recordings there, but it is an open secret that they are recording for a new line of wet sample libraries there as well. First product to come out should be Synchron Stage Percussion, with the other sections of the orchestra presumably to follow. VSL hinted that there will be many new library releases in 2017.


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## dhlkid (Mar 24, 2017)

Looking forward to their new library in 2017


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## Paul T McGraw (Mar 24, 2017)

On the VSL website, for each product page there is a link to the "Sample Content" for that library. All of the articulations will be listed on the "Sample Content" page. There are choices of several legato patches for most of the products. Velocity layers will vary for different articulations, as will the number of round robins. For the most typical articulations there will be four velocity layers. But some have five, and a few three. The velocity cross fade (usually controlled by CC1 mod wheel) functions extremely well for all of their products and I have never felt I needed more velocity layers. 

You can request a demo license for any of their products and in the manual you will find many many details.


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## synthpunk (Mar 24, 2017)

This is really how bad rumors and fake news get started.


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## Lotias (Mar 24, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> This is really how bad rumors and fake news get started.


What bad rumors and fake news are being spread in this thread? I can't find any.


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## Lotias (Mar 24, 2017)

Phryq said:


> Their site is still up https://www.vsl.co.at
> 
> and it looks like they have some newish VSTi
> 
> ...


To find out about specifics like legato and velocity layers, you can always email them and ask for a manual. It's a little odd, but that's how they handle it.


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## Paul T McGraw (Mar 24, 2017)

Lotias said:


> To find out about specifics like legato and velocity layers, you can always email them and ask for a manual. It's a little odd, but that's how they handle it.



All of the specific articulations, including the various legato articulations, are listed on the "Sample Contents" page for each product. Even the product referenced by the OP in the link he posted specifically lists "Legato and Trill Performances".


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## Lotias (Mar 24, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> All of the specific articulations, including the various legato articulations, are listed on the "Sample Contents" page for each product. Even the product referenced by the OP in the link he posted specifically lists "Legato and Trill Performances".


But the _specifics_ AREN'T listed there. Velocity layers and round robins aren't shown on the website, and specific patches (like legato-sus) aren't listed.


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## novaburst (Mar 24, 2017)

Phryq said:


> They used to be the top of the industry



don't believe this has changed, they are still up there.


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## Paul T McGraw (Mar 24, 2017)

Lotias said:


> But the _specifics_ AREN'T listed there. Velocity layers and round robins aren't shown on the website, and specific patches (like legato-sus) aren't listed.



All of the specific patches (i.e. articulations) are shown for each product. The product the OP referenced is an antique instrument with very few articulations by the usual VSL standard.

For example on the Samples Content page for the Orchestral strings there are over 70 (yes seventy) articulations listed just for the violins, including several variations of legato. Similar numbers of articulations are available for the violas, cellos and basses. Please look at this page.

https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Strings_Complete/Orchestral_Strings_Bundle#!Sample_Content

I was just on the Spitfire website. I guess they just aren't up there with the "tops in the industry" anymore according to the criteria of this thread since they don't list the number of velocity layers or the number of round robins!

http://www.spitfireaudio.com/shop/instruments/strings/spitfire-symphonic-strings/

It seems to be popular on this forum to bash VSL for some reason. Personally (as in my personal opinion) I think VSL are the best in the industry. The dry samples and multitude of articulations are more difficult to learn to use, but the user can load even the largest symphony orchestra into one computer with about 16GB and with good spatialization place that orchestra in unlimited choices of locales.


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## Lee Blaske (Mar 24, 2017)

I don't think there's another product out there like VSL's Dimension Strings or Dimension Brass. Those products are enormously detailed. Not the easiest to use, but if you master them (and good keyboard skills really help), there's a level of realism there that's hard to attain with other products.


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## Lotias (Mar 24, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> All of the specific patches (i.e. articulations) are shown for each product. The product the OP referenced is an antique instrument with very few articulations by the usual VSL standard.
> 
> For example on the Samples Content page for the Orchestral strings there are over 70 (yes seventy) articulations listed just for the violins, including several variations of legato. Similar numbers of articulations are available for the violas, cellos and basses. Please look at this page.
> 
> ...


Again... OP was asking about information like velocity layers. Which, again, are not shown in the 'sample content' pages. I was only telling him how to get that information. I don't think anyone here was bashing VSL or comparing it to Spitfire, either.

As for the forum's apparent dislike for VSL;
I just wish more sample developers tries phase-aligning their samples like Chris Hein does, the velocity crossfades in VSL samples are very noticeable in any exposed application, outside of their string libraries. That would be my first guess as to why VSL is not as popular around here, because using the filter is not so realistic and a lot of those articulations you mention are dedicated to getting around it instead of letting you play the dynamics yourself.

Not to mention that other than the more recent libraries (and string ensembles), the unsustained legatos can really hurt - and the legato-sus patches have their quirks in the sound as well. Sustaining for only about a second after a legato transition isn't enough for a lot of passages.

I personally like VSL a lot (especially their player and their string ensembles & woodwinds), but these problems cause me to look elsewhere very often.


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## robgb (Mar 24, 2017)

All VSL instruments have 100,000 velocity layers and 90 round robins.


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## Saxer (Mar 24, 2017)

VSL's libraries just work. The hype is done elsewhere.


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## SoNowWhat? (Mar 24, 2017)

I don't own a single VSL instrument but I don't doubt for a minute that they are up there with the best VIs. I'm also aware of the recent instrument releases they've made. Maybe the info isn't filtering through to everyone as well as it could.

Edit - Whoops I forgot about those that come with Komplete. So yeah, I have some VSL instruments.

Edit edit - should also add that this is based on what I've seen, heard and read (as I don't have the same degree of exposure to use as others). They're one of the better developers out there even if I don't like their licensing system.


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## SoNowWhat? (Mar 24, 2017)

robgb said:


> All VSL instruments have 100,000 velocity layers and 90 round robins.


Thank you Sean Spicer.


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## kitekrazy (Mar 24, 2017)

SoNowWhat? said:


> I don't own a single VSL instrument but I don't doubt for a minute that they are up there with the best VIs. I'm also aware of the recent instrument releases they've made. Maybe the info isn't filtering through to everyone as well as it could.
> 
> (Edit - *Whoops I forgot about those that come with Komplete. So yeah, I have some VSL instruments).*



Those are quite usable for one who never had an orchestra library before. They are bundled in Kontakt.


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## SoNowWhat? (Mar 24, 2017)

kitekrazy said:


> Those are quite usable for one who never had an orchestra library before. They are bundled in Kontakt.


I agree. Some are good.


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## chapbot (Mar 24, 2017)

I just bought their chamber strings - love them and they blend very well with other libraries.


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## Wunderhorn (Mar 24, 2017)

While I don't use a lot of VSL libraries I am very grateful for their VE-PRO, which brings functionality and workflow enhancements that are so sorely missing in all the high-end DAWs.


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## Phryq (Mar 25, 2017)

Sorry, I'm not bashing VSL at all. In fact, I really like their philosophy. The silent room recordings, etc. I think dimension strings sounds amazing, and I love the concept/control of divisi an choosing which string etc.

It's just because I never hear anyone talking about them, whereas I see many posts about every other company.



Paul T McGraw said:


> On the VSL website, for each product page there is a link to the "Sample Content" for that library. All of the articulations will be listed on the "Sample Content" page. There are choices of several legato patches for most of the products. Velocity layers will vary for different articulations, as will the number of round robins. For the most typical articulations there will be four velocity layers. But some have five, and a few three. The velocity cross fade (usually controlled by CC1 mod wheel) functions extremely well for all of their products and I have never felt I needed more velocity layers.
> 
> You can request a demo license for any of their products and in the manual you will find many many details.



Really? So I can download / try out one of their VSTi?! I've never used anything VSL, so that would be exciting.


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## Christof (Mar 25, 2017)

They are still there mainly doing preparations for new libraries in a new environment.
Beside this they run one of the finest scoring stages in Europe.
Be prepared


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## Steve Steele (Mar 25, 2017)

Lee Blaske said:


> I don't think there's another product out there like VSL's Dimension Strings or Dimension Brass. Those products are enormously detailed. Not the easiest to use, but if you master them (and good keyboard skills really help), there's a level of realism there that's hard to attain with other products.



Berlin Brass is very similar to VSL DB. For example, all four horns are mic'd individually within the ensemble. OT's really got the room sound and the staging perfect with Berlin Brass. OT has grown up to be the big boys for the baked-in crowd. Still, I'll keep VSL Woodwinds for years to come.


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## ctsai89 (Mar 25, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> All of the specific patches (i.e. articulations) are shown for each product. The product the OP referenced is an antique instrument with very few articulations by the usual VSL standard.
> 
> For example on the Samples Content page for the Orchestral strings there are over 70 (yes seventy) articulations listed just for the violins, including several variations of legato. Similar numbers of articulations are available for the violas, cellos and basses. Please look at this page.
> 
> ...



For the sustains there are about 3~4 dynamics as I can hear. mp, mf, ff, and when you reach below cc#1 = 20 or less there will be no vibrato and so i guess that's the pianissimo. 

number of round robins: at most, 8.

For me personally, the spitfire hall makes the greatest difference (along with the expressiveness). With just tree mics, you're able to sound organically like a professional orchestra performed at a top city concert hall.


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## Steve Steele (Mar 25, 2017)

Phryq said:


> Sorry, I'm not bashing VSL at all. In fact, I really like their philosophy. The silent room recordings, etc. I think dimension strings sounds amazing, and I love the concept/control of divisi an choosing which string etc.
> 
> It's just because I never hear anyone talking about them, whereas I see many posts about every other company.



You don't hear many people discuss VSL here because there are so many younger composers coming here that love the latest Kontakt toy. Nothing wrong with that but with the VSL stuff you have to work harder to build your template and you work harder controlling so many articulations (with the full libraries which I have). Some people really don't like having to add in the staging, the early reflections and the reverb, when so many Kontakt libs come baked in. Having their own sample engine keeps them from getting a lot of attention on YouTube from Kontakt users.



> So I can download / try out one of their VSTi?! I've never used anything VSL, so that would be exciting.



No. you can only download 30 day demos of their software. Not their sample libraries. If you're serious about checking out VSL the cheapest most meaningful way to buy Vienna Ensemble Pro 6 for U.S. $250 (you get three licenses so you can expand out to a host and two slaves, or host/slave and laptop), and you'll get the free Vienna Instruments player and the Epic Orchestra (a 9GB complete orchestra which includes a few of samples/articulations of each section and a couple articulations of three solo instruments). Great deal.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Mar 25, 2017)

nightwatch said:


> No. you can only download 30 day demos of their software. Not their sample libraries.


You actually can demo their libraries. If you buy for €15,- or so a ticket ( don't know what is called anymore) you can play their libraries from within your webbrowser.

Have a look at their website and its explained there.


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## Steve Steele (Mar 25, 2017)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> You actually can demo their libraries. If you buy for €15,- or so a ticket ( don't know what is called anymore) you can play their libraries from within your webbrowser.
> 
> Have a look at their website and its explained there.


The Vienna Audition Player. I know. I presumed he was talking about a free demo.


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## Arbee (Mar 25, 2017)

Saxer said:


> VSL's libraries just work. The hype is done elsewhere.


Yep, exactly this.


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## GdT (Mar 25, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> This is really how bad rumors and fake news get started.


+1


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## GdT (Mar 25, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> Personally (as in my personal opinion) I think VSL are the best in the industry.


+1


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## synthpunk (Mar 25, 2017)

Elfman still uses VSL


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## Craig Sharmat (Mar 25, 2017)

Christof said:


> They are still there mainly doing preparations for new libraries in a new environment.
> Beside this they run one of the finest scoring stages in Europe.
> Be prepared



As Christof wrote be prepared, at NAMM they had VR glasses with a tour of the stage they purchased. It looks like a whole new line of VSL products will soon be available recorded in a far different environment, should be very interesting in the least.

https://www.vsl.co.at/en/News/Synchron_Stage_Vienna


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## Phryq (Mar 25, 2017)

I was actually liking the idea of the silent stage... I don't think they need a new stage. Like was said earlier, follow Chris Hein and phase align the velocity layers. Keep the silent stage, mic things even closer. Remove noise. Do articulations like Berlin Capsule....

Ok, now I'm just ranting about what I think would be the ideal library. Just was wondering what they're up to, because I spend too much time looking at software I can't afford, and not enough time composing.


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## Casiquire (Mar 26, 2017)

They're some of my most reliable libraries. I couldn't recommend them enough. I believe muted Dimension Strings was released not too long ago, and the whole Dimension concept has never been done by anybody else before or since. Always top quality.


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## xenon1 (Mar 26, 2017)

I think they are very good company....except the worst policy about elicenser. If you lose usb licenser, you should buy all the libraries again.(50% of full price).
And also you should buy e-licenser every 2 years. If you break the key expired, you should pay 20 euroes per each license.(so big bundle like super package: over than 1000 euroes). Worst of worst ever,undoubtedly.

As I know, there are no other companies have this arrogant policy, in the world.


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## xenon1 (Mar 26, 2017)

omiroad said:


> I second this, their policy is insane. My bundles are split up in instruments because they're downloaded so there's no way their "service" would be worth it. I'd probably just move on. :/



Furthermore they don't reveal in VSL's webpage about this. And...they always insist that it's all because of copy-protection, but IMO it's just a pretext.


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## Lode_Runner (Mar 27, 2017)

robgb said:


> All VSL instruments have 100,000 velocity layers and 90 round robins.


I think you've got VSL mixed up with 8Dio


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## Dietz (Mar 27, 2017)

xenon1 said:


> Furthermore they don't reveal in VSL's webpage about this


... except the links on the bottom of every single page of VSL's site, of course.


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## dtcomposer (Mar 27, 2017)

Dietz said:


> ... except the links on the bottom of every single page of VSL's site, of course.



The agreement language is very light on specifics, though, to be fair. It speaks of "handling fees" in the case of a broken elicenser, and just states that lost elicensers "can't be replaced free of charge".

Unless I am missing the specifics elsewhere in the agreement, of course. As somebody who purchased quite a bit of VSL software a while ago I was unaware of any 50% fee for replacing my software should my Elicenser come up missing. It doesn't make much sense considering that they can block/disable a lost one, and the nature of transferring licenses, downloading products. The technology is there to protect their customers and themselves. If the 50% claim is true, I doubt that I will ever buy another VSL instrument knowing how much unnecessary risk is involved.


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## kitekrazy (Mar 27, 2017)

omiroad said:


> Like Steinberg, they're a very conservative company. They stick to what works for them, and don't look to competitors or newer customer needs. It's an interesting but dangerous approach, and we'll see what it means for their future.



I started on Percussion and More and have moved up to SE Vol.1 and 2. They have a sale about every month. This month buy 2 get one free. The prices are also lower through 3rd party vendors.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Mar 27, 2017)

dtcomposer said:


> The agreement language is very light on specifics, though, to be fair. It speaks of "handling fees" in the case of a broken elicenser, and just states that lost elicensers "can't be replaced free of charge".
> 
> Unless I am missing the specifics elsewhere in the agreement, of course. As somebody who purchased quite a bit of VSL software a while ago I was unaware of any 50% fee for replacing my software should my Elicenser come up missing. It doesn't make much sense considering that they can block/disable a lost one, and the nature of transferring licenses, downloading products. The technology is there to protect their customers and themselves. If the 50% claim is true, I doubt that I will ever buy another VSL instrument knowing how much unnecessary risk is involved.



It is true that they will "be nice" and charge you 50%. Their advice to me was to *insure *my dongle (as I own almost all of their products). After a day of calling insurance companies, not one would insure a usb dongle holding $Xk worth of software. So if there is a fire (and my dongle disintegrates) or a theft at my house, all my licenses are gone and I would have to pay VSL to get them back - a price I am not sure I would even be able to afford nor be willing to pay.

There's no justification to re-buy VSL's libraries. I am almost certain that they could replace your licenses for almost no cost. But you know, the upkeep of a shiny new sound stage ain't cheap!

The most lively discussions over at VSL forums these days are almost exclusively about their dongle policy.


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## Tfis (Mar 28, 2017)

Your fire insurance should cover it.


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## novaburst (Mar 28, 2017)

omiroad said:


> and is afraid the dongle might break as it did for my friends, I can't justify the risk of losing the licenses I spent my money on. I don't have this problem with Cubase because of the Zero Downtime Policy. I



There are maybe hundreds of thousands of users of VSL and cubase who don't seem to have a problem with dongle (USB) licenses.

VSL and cubase do recommend you register your license in case you loose it.

Also you can transfer your license from dongle to dongle when ever it suits you.

There is a risk of breaking or loosing your dongle if you travel a lot with a laptop and are here and there, but we all do that with USB sticks with a problem, why when it comes to dongles there seems to be a problem.

If there is such important information on your USB or dongle for that matter, extra care should be taken when moving around from place to place, a bit like your bank card, driving license, credit card, house keys, car keys,, your purse or wallet,


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## muk (Mar 28, 2017)

Here is the specific segment from their Terms of License: 

"Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH reserves the right to block its Licenses saved on the lost ViennaKey or on any other lost USB eLicenser upon being notified by the registered user of the loss. Lost or stolen Licenses cannot be replaced free of charge by Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH."

Apparently VSL *can block* the licenses on a lost or stolen key. I understand that VSL will charge a handling fee for doing so. But in my opinion it is out of every proportion to charge 50% of the original library price for that. They should charge for their actual effort of blocking these licenses. If it takes one hour of work, they could charge like 60$ or so.

Since VSL can block the lost/stolen licenses, there is zero damage for the company.


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## Puzzlefactory (Mar 28, 2017)

I think it's a bit mean to charge 50% of the asking price for a broken/lost dongle. Sure if it seemed suspicious (like the same license being replaced again and again) but for a one off replacement (particularly on such expensive libraries) they should be more forgiving IMO. 

Like someone pointed out, would cost them little or nothing to block/change a license.


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## novaburst (Mar 28, 2017)

muk said:


> Since VSL can block the lost/stolen licenses, there is zero damage for the company.



I think this blocking is to stop any one from using it if stolen or found.

Not sure what they do for damaged dongles.

Bad luck does happen and feel for them who has gone through this with VSL.



omiroad said:


> You don't have to buy a new car if you break/lose your car keys, you still have the right to your house if you lose your home keys, I don't have to retake driving lessons if I lose a physical driver's license, I don't lose my bank account if I lose my bank card



You may come back to your house and find it emptied of your goods, you also may not see your car any more, also your bank may be compromised, before you find out your card is stolen.

I know it can be a head bang when we loose things, or things get stolen.

I feel all these charges from VSL is to encourage good practice, and take good care of things at the very least to minimise loss or breaks,


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## Puzzlefactory (Mar 28, 2017)

I disagree, like I said before it seems mean (and greedy) to me. At the end of the day a dongle is just a piece of plastic that can easily break. 

There should be some provisions in place move a license from one stick to another. 

Particularly so, if the companies advice is "insure your dongle" but at the same time no insurance company will insure a USB stick with thousands of pounds worth of software on it (as a previous poster claimed).


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## xenon1 (Mar 28, 2017)

novaburst said:


> If there is such important information on your USB or dongle for that matter, extra care should be taken when moving around from place to place, a bit like your bank card, driving license, credit card, house keys, car keys,, your purse or wallet,



Sad to say this, but as far as I know, no one has been rescued from VSL who lost usb dongle.
and we VSL's customer didn't buy hardware. We just bought their software and elicenser is just the key to use their software. car, wallet, jewelry... they are all hardwares.


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## Puzzlefactory (Mar 28, 2017)

Exactly, you lose your car keys you may need to pay a hundred pounds or so and prove you are the owner. But you wouldn't have to pay half the price of the car to get to use it again.


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## muk (Mar 28, 2017)

Reading a bit on the VSL forum. Michael Hula from VSL support posted that they can not block the licenses on it:

"So, if a key get's lost, everybody who finds this key has unrestricted acces to the licenses. Free replacement licenses would harm our company, we simply can't afford such a solution."

https://www.vsl.co.at/community/posts/t42581-VSL-LOST-KEY-POLICY#post256404

In that case, surely this part in their Terms of License is a bit misleading:

"Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH reserves the right to block its Licenses saved on the lost ViennaKey".

They reserve the right, but apparently they can not actually do it. Maybe that's something to work on, it would improve customer security quite a bit.


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## Puzzlefactory (Mar 28, 2017)

What is East Wests policy with their ilok licences?


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## dtcomposer (Mar 28, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> What is East Wests policy with their ilok licences?



I accidentally left my whole collection (basically everything up through the Hollywood series ensemble instruments) on the equivalent to a "soft e-licenser" on my computer, and then stupidly changed my motherboard, and sold the old one without uninstalling the licenses. There was no way to get the motherboard back, no way to uninstall the licenses from the other computer. There was also no way for the next owner to access the licenses either, obviously.

They just generated completely new licenses, and canceled the other ones on the Ilok account. I was worried that they would have some heavy handed policy since they have kind of a bad reputation, but it was very simple, and they didn't even charge a fee. Maybe VSL needs to switch over to Ilok if the vienna key tech is so far behind?


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## novaburst (Mar 28, 2017)

I have broken a dongle into an L shape thankfully it still registered on my machine, but i transferred everything on that dongle to another one.

But even that gave me a good lesson, i am ever so careful when moving or working on my machines, even when laying my machine down i remove all dongles.

Anyway VSL and dongles for ever.........Just kidding


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## Christof (Mar 28, 2017)

dtcomposer said:


> I accidentally left my whole collection (basically everything up through the Hollywood series ensemble instruments) on the equivalent to a "soft e-licenser" on my computer, and then stupidly changed my motherboard, and sold the old one without uninstalling the licenses. There was no way to get the motherboard back, no way to uninstall the licenses from the other computer. There was also no way for the next owner to access the licenses either, obviously.
> 
> They just generated completely new licenses, and canceled the other ones on the Ilok account. I was worried that they would have some heavy handed policy since they have kind of a bad reputation, but it was very simple, and they didn't even charge a fee. Maybe VSL needs to switch over to Ilok if the vienna key tech is so far behind?


Actually it's the same dongle/system Steinberg uses.
There is no Vienna key.


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## dtcomposer (Mar 28, 2017)

Christof said:


> Actually it's the same dongle/system Steinberg uses.
> There is no Vienna key.


Correct. They just call it the Vienna Key. Either way, if there is a limitation on the technology end that impacts their users in such a punitive way, I think it would be wise to move to a more customer-friendly system. It doesn't even really make sense from a business perspective assuming they inform their potential customers.

But if they feel the moral obligation to continue the 50% practice, don't they also have a moral obligation to inform their users of the specifics? I support a company setting whatever policies they want, but not informing their potential customers seems predatory. Now that I know the policy, it's my responsibility to decide if the risk is worth the product.


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## muk (Mar 28, 2017)

Christof said:


> Actually it's the same dongle/system Steinberg uses.



That is true for VSL, but not for Eastwest. Eiter with iLok you can deactivate licenses, or Eastwest is more customer friendly in that regard.

It seems to be a policy thing anyway. Cubase licenses are apparently covered if your dongle is stolen or lost. The VSL licenses on the same key are not.


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## marclawsonmusic (Mar 28, 2017)

dtcomposer said:


> But if they feel the moral obligation to continue the 50% practice, don't they also have a moral obligation to inform their users of the specifics? I support a company setting whatever policies they want, but not informing their potential customers seems predatory. Now that I know the policy, it's my responsibility to decide if the risk is worth the product.



Are you talking about the same VSL that allows you to resell your samples to someone else? And you call this company predatory? Hmmm...


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## marclawsonmusic (Mar 28, 2017)

If you don't like dongles, buy some other samples. No one is forcing you to buy VSL.


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## marclawsonmusic (Mar 28, 2017)

I agree that life is unfair.


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## marclawsonmusic (Mar 28, 2017)

I am sorry that you regret your purchase.


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## dtcomposer (Mar 28, 2017)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Are you talking about the same VSL that allows you to resell your samples to someone else? And you call this company predatory? Hmmm...



That isn't what I said. I said that the action of not letting customers know that there will be a significant charge for replacing licences on a lost dongle is predatory. Do you think that is an honest way to do business? I think a company can have policies that are good and bad. This seems like a very bad one to me.

I want to clarify that my issue is that they are not making this clear before people spend thousands of dollars on their products. If it was spelled out clearly in the documentation, or on the website (not just the vague wording that I saw, but the actual policy) then I would agree completely that it is up to the consumer to decide if it is worth the risk. I think that is a reasonable opinion.


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## cyrilblanc (Mar 28, 2017)

Hello
I am new on this forum.

I own most of the libraries from VSL and I have also stop buying more VSL libs until they change there policy rules.

I have been banned from VSL forum because I was speaking too much about the 50 % clause

VSL have great products but they want the butter, the money of the butter and the farmer's wife 

*Steinberg is not charging a cents to issue another license number !*
*Steinberg can disable a lost, broken or stolen dongle if it has been registered !*
*Steinberg can check that a dongle has been lost, stollen !*

Speaking about the insurance, none of the insurance I have contacted in France, in England and in Germany would insure the contents of the dongle, they do not insure IMMATERIAL. They will insure the dongle itself for 20 € but not for the 10 000 € of it's licenses.

I hope that VSL is going to change there rules because i will love to buy the Dimension Strings


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Mar 28, 2017)

cyrilblanc said:


> Hello
> I am new on this forum.
> 
> I own most of the libraries from VSL and I have also stop buying more VSL libs until they change there policy rules.
> ...


Wow you got banned? You were one of the more active members in that forum.

They need to sort this out.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 28, 2017)

I never realized this was VSL's policy re lost or broken dongles, though they've obviously been upfront about it.

I don't own much VSL, but I've certainly bought into the VEP cycle from the beginning and have touted it as one of the two essential pieces of software I own. I'm disappointed that they pursue a policy that puts their customers at risk for something as cheaply made as a dongle-a piece of plastic that is primarily used for the protection of their proprietary rights.

I'm not one of those anti-dongle people, but I'm disconcerted that a first class company like VSL would potentially punish their loyal customers with such a policy. I agree with Marc that caveat emptor rules the day, so I'll have to factor this risk into any future VSL purchases.


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## cyrilblanc (Mar 28, 2017)

I forgot to add that Steinberg has now a software dongle


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## Puzzlefactory (Mar 28, 2017)

NYC Composer said:


> I never realized this was VSL's policy re lost or broken dongles, though they've obviously been upfront about it.
> 
> I don't own much VSL, but I've certainly bought into the VEP cycle from the beginning and have touted it as one of the two essential pieces of software I own. I'm disappointed that they pursue a policy that puts their customers at risk for something as cheaply made as a dongle-a piece of plastic that is primarily used for the protection of their proprietary rights.
> 
> I'm not one of those anti-dongle people, but I'm disconcerted that a first class company like VSL would potentially punish their loyal customers with such a policy. I agree with Marc that caveat emptor rules the day, so I'll have to factor this risk into any future VSL purchases.



I'm not part of the antidongle crew either. 

But if you are going to insist on using a small flimsy piece of plastic as your pirate protection, you should either make that thing out of titanium with a "find my dongle" device installed in it.

Or you put in place some kind of replacement procedure for people that lose/break/has it stolen. 

If East West can do it, I don't see why VSL can't.


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## C-Wave (Mar 29, 2017)

cyrilblanc said:


> I forgot to add that Steinberg has now a software dongle


Since when did they implement this software dongle?


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## novaburst (Mar 29, 2017)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Are you talking about the same VSL that allows you to resell your samples to someone else? And you call this company predatory? Hmmm...



This is significant and it's easy to do.



NYC Composer said:


> I'm not one of those anti-dongle people, but I'm disconcerted that a first class company like VSL would potentially punish their loyal customers



No one should be going to purchase anything with the thought, i am going to loose or break my dongle, you should be just going for the library,

Plus this 50% does not apply if you register your license and dongles.

Responsibility should be taken not only with VSL but many important products to minimise risk and to value your products more.

VSL policy may or may not agree with some but remember 100s of 1000s are using VSL with out issues breaks, loss, or stolen.

So whats up with the scaremongering 

Are you telling me that you can give your other software library's back to the developer if it has issues and glitches out on you, don't you purchase other music software on a no return policy how unfair is that. 

Many library's glitch out or are unplayable but there still on our system, or we just make do with it, many we can't sell on, or return it back, so in many ways VSL is not to shabby in comparison.


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## rottoy (Mar 29, 2017)

Lode_Runner said:


> I think you've got VSL mixed up with 8Dio


A million lines of code, all of it R-rated.


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## muk (Mar 29, 2017)

novaburst said:


> Plus this 50% does not apply if you register your license and dongles.



That statement is wrong, as far as I understand. If your dongle is stolen or lost, you have to pay 50% to have your licenses restored no matter what. Even if your dongle and licenses are registered. Everybody has to decide for herself/himself if they agree with this policy, and assess the risks for themselves.


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## OliverLee (Mar 29, 2017)

muk is right. It's all of no use to resister if you lose elicenser. I just wonder why VSL suggest all the customer to resister licenses in VSL homepage and Mysteinberg.


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## wcreed51 (Mar 29, 2017)

It's of use if your dongle fails


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## cyrilblanc (Mar 29, 2017)

C-Wave said:


> Since when did they implement this software dongle?


Since Dorico


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## Piotrek K. (Mar 29, 2017)

> If you don't like dongles, buy some other samples. No one is forcing you to buy VSL.



I hate this kind of answers, because they misses the point and do not solve any problems. The problem is not dongle itself (although it's indeed a plastic piece of crap), nor the product (which is absolutely great) but the licensing politics. Vienna use of dongle is the worst kind of copy protection, because it is a threat ONLY for a person who is actually honest customer. It's something in line with "cool that you spend some money with us, but we believe that you are a thief anyways, that's why you need to pay once again if something happens. Cause you know, you probably hid that first dongle." And pirates doesn't give an F - it took me 10 second to find torrent with VSL instruments. Probably it's something before Vienna Instruments, but who cares. Sound is the same.

Although maybe everything in this thread is just a theory and in practice it works differently and customer service is willing to help without milking customer. But if this is the truth, then it would be good to say that loud. I'm sure that dongle and threads like that can take customers away from VSL. And I don't know if they should accept that so easily in a constantly growing world of orchestral sampling. From that point it's business decision of great magnitude - spend some money on copy protection changes or ...


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## marclawsonmusic (Mar 29, 2017)

Piotrek K. said:


> I hate this kind of answers...



I hate this kind of thread.


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## dtcomposer (Mar 29, 2017)

marclawsonmusic said:


> I hate this kind of thread.



On the contrary, I think this has been a great thread. Now more customers will potentially understand the situation before they make a large purchase. It's a pity that VSL doesn't state this more explicitly so that customers can be informed.

I've never had an issue with dongles, though. As long as there are some reasonable insurance policies that protect all parties, I support companies protecting their intellectual property.


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## novaburst (Mar 29, 2017)

muk said:


> That statement is wrong, as far as I understand. If your dongle is stolen or lost, you have to pay 50% to have your licenses restored no matter what. Even if your dongle and licenses are registered. Everybody has to decide for herself/himself if they agree with this policy, and assess the risks for themselves.



I feel that VSL library's and software are cut out for users with a different mind set,

Becuase if we all went with the mindset of the thoughts on dongle and license policy i am sure no one would own a single VSL software.

I guess it's cut out for some but not for others.


Can't see the policy changing, and at the same time would not call it risk buying to invest in VSL.

Plus if you want to sell on you can with no probs.


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## cyrilblanc (Mar 29, 2017)

novaburst said:


> Can't see the policy changing, and at the same time would not call it risk buying to invest in VSL.


There I do not understand VSL, they are loosing a lot of money with there commercial policy



novaburst said:


> Plus if you want to sell on you can with no probs.


If you want to sell VSL licenses, they are charging you by the number of licenses you sell ! 20 € ???


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## muk (Mar 29, 2017)

Guys, don't mix up different cases. Here is a brief summary of the facts: 

Resales: VSL allows resales for a transfer fee of 10% of the libraries price.
Some other developers have similar policies, but others do not allow resales altogether. There is a list stickied in this forum about this. 

Dongle failure/breaks: if within warranty of the dongle, VSL restores the licenses free of charge. If not covered under warranty (expired or misuse of the dongle) a fee of 20€ per license applies. 

Dongle theft/loss: VSL charges 50% of the libraries price to restore the license. 
Steinberg and Eastwest apparently restore the licenses free of charge in such a case. I don't know how other developers handle it.


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## cyrilblanc (Mar 29, 2017)

read this tread :
http://www.vsl.co.at/community/post...-policy-put-into-words-beautifully#post258082


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## ptram (Mar 29, 2017)

muk said:


> Apparently VSL *can block* the licenses on a lost or stolen key.


In a thread in their forum, regarding reinstallation issues, today "michi" from VSL answered that a user's key had been blocked last year. This answer was then deleted, with a message asking to contact them privately. I don't know if the answer was deleted because they cannot actually block a key, or because they don't want this detail to be revealed.

Paolo


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## dtcomposer (Mar 29, 2017)

muk said:


> Guys, don't mix up different cases. Here is a brief summary of the facts:
> 
> Resales: VSL allows resales for a transfer fee of 10% of the libraries price.
> Some other developers have similar policies, but others do not allow resales altogether. There is a list stickied in this forum about this.
> ...



I would add one caveat that if you received a discount at the time of purchase, you have to pay that back in order to sell. I know this because the situation came up when I asked about selling my extra Mir Pro license. Though in my case there was a mistake as I did not buy at a discount originally. They were very good about acknowledging that.

Still, this is a great summary, and something like this as a FAQ on the VSL site would be very helpful, and eliminate my concerns. I still disagree with their policy, but as long as people are aware of what they are agreeing to it should be fine.


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## muk (Mar 29, 2017)

ptram said:


> In a thread in their forum, regarding reinstallation issues, today "michi" from VSL answered that a user's key had been blocked last year. This answer was then deleted, with a message asking to contact them privately. I don't know if the answer was deleted because they cannot actually block a key, or because they don't want this detail to be revealed.
> 
> Paolo



Weird. In January Michael Hula (michi on the VSL forum) wrote: "So, if a key get's lost, everybody who finds this key has unrestricted acces to the licenses. Free replacement licenses would harm our company, we simply can't afford such a solution." If VSL _can_ block licenses from further use the 50% is way too high in my opinion, as then there is no damage for VSL. In my opinion 50% is only defensible - if not very accommodating - if they can't.


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## ptram (Mar 29, 2017)

novaburst said:


> If there is such important information on your USB or dongle for that matter, extra care should be taken when moving around from place to place, a bit like your bank card, driving license, credit card, house keys, car keys,, your purse or wallet,


If I lose my credit card, or it is stolen, I can call my bank and have it blocked. My bank account will not be touched. It should be the same with VSL licenses, safely residing in VSL's servers. The Vienna Key has a serial number, and can easily be identified. Other companies act like your bank would.

Paolo


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## mc_deli (Mar 29, 2017)

VSL should take a long look at Toontracks, as well as Steinberg and EW, and consider again how much money they are losing in sales because of their licensing policies.


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## ptram (Mar 29, 2017)

Tfis said:


> Your fire insurance should cover it.


I've asked the agency I've my home insured with, and after trying to understand what I was talking about, they told me that I need a "certificate estimate" from a "certified expert". Looks easy.

Paolo


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## TintoL (Mar 29, 2017)

My studio in the basement of my house caught on fire. All my studio got lost plus smoke damage in the whole house. All is fine now and I am back to my house. This happened about a year and a half ago. 

Two Vienna keys got burned to a point they were melted and no information was saved.

I called VSL about my special situation. They said the same thing:
"We can not do anything because if someone were to get the licenses they will have no restrictions". So, I lost about $10,000 usd. Thanks to the insurance that they replaced me the money. But, I will never buy from them again. Good products, but, too much risk.

On the other hand the ilock for my east west stuff got transferred into a new dongle. It cost me $170. AND THAT IS A LOT BETTER. So, to anyone talking bad about ilock, they are a thousand times better in this regards.


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## cyrilblanc (Mar 29, 2017)

TintoL said:


> I called VSL about my special situation. They said the same thing: "We can not do anything because if someone were to get the licenses they will have no restrictions". So, I lost about $10,000 usd. Thanks the insurance that they replace me the money. But, I will never buy from them again. Too much risk.


This is incredible ! did you send them the burned dongle as a proof ?


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## tack (Mar 29, 2017)

TintoL said:


> I called VSL about my special situation. They said the same thing:
> "We can not do anything because if someone were to get the licenses they will have no restrictions". So, I lost about $10,000 usd. Thanks to the insurance that they replaced me the money. But, I will never buy from them again. Good products, but, too much risk.


An interesting cautionary tale. Thanks for sharing.


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## cyrilblanc (Mar 29, 2017)

muk said:


> Weird. In January Michael Hula (michi on the VSL forum) wrote: "So, if a key get's lost, everybody who finds this key has unrestricted acces to the licenses.


This is not true, if the licenses have been declared stollen to Steinberg, Steinberg can disable the licenses and at the next time the person will laugh the eLicenser, he will saw the licenses disable !
*So an easy fix for VSL is to launch the eLc in background every so often *


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## xenon1 (Mar 29, 2017)

cyrilblanc said:


> This is not true, if the licenses have been declared stollen to Steinberg, Steinberg can disable the licenses and at the next time the person will laugh the eLicenser, he will saw the licenses disable !
> *So an easy fix for VSL is to laugh the eLc in background every so often *



So sad but I think VSL would have no intention of improving this worst situation. They've proved it for many years.


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## novaburst (Mar 29, 2017)

TintoL said:


> , I will never buy from them again. Good products, but, too much risk



This tune will change when you hear of there new products, sampled in there new hall.

That's when all this dongle talk disappears


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## tack (Mar 29, 2017)

novaburst said:


> That's when all this dongle talk disappears


Sometimes principles win out.


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## Dietz (Mar 29, 2017)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Wow you got banned? You were one of the more active members in that forum.
> 
> They need to sort this out.



Your remark made me curious, SimonCharlesHanna.

To the best of my knowledge, only three users (of more than 75,000) have been banned from VSL's forum in its 15 years of existence - apart from the occasional spam bot, of course. All of them in consequence of actionable ad-hominem-attacks against other forum members and/or VST staff; some of them several times after using different user accounts.

... I could imagine that "they" handle this more liberal than most other boards you seem to regard as "sorted out".


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## Dietz (Mar 29, 2017)

omiroad said:


> Dietz, is that really the only thing you respond to in this thread?
> [...]



No. I already responded earlier in this thread to set some misinformation straight.

I understand that you trying to involve me in your crusade on a meta-level now, but I'm an audio engineer and can't comment on VSL's copy protection decisions. Apart from that: Personally, I happen to strongly prefer dongle-protected software to other licensing schemes and never had any issues with it (not counting some Waves-related problems in the 90ies), so you and I would have to agree to disagree in any case.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 29, 2017)

I don't think dongle are the issue here. I think the problem is fair replacement policies for proven buyers.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Mar 29, 2017)

Dietz said:


> Your remark made me curious, SimonCharlesHanna.
> 
> To the best of my knowledge, only three users (of more than 75,000) have been banned from VSL's forum in its 15 years of existence - apart from the occasional spam bot, of course. All of them in consequence of actionable ad-hominem-attacks against other forum members and/or VST staff; some of them several times after using different user accounts.
> 
> ... I could imagine that "they" handle this more liberal than most other boards you seem to regard as "sorted out".


To be honest I speaking more about VSL as a company rather than just the message board.

You may think I dislike VSL - quite the opposite. The amount of licenses I own speak for themselves


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## cyrilblanc (Mar 30, 2017)

Dietz said:


> Your remark made me curious, SimonCharlesHanna.
> 
> To the best of my knowledge, only three users (of more than 75,000) have been banned from VSL's forum in its 15 years of existence - apart from the occasional spam bot, of course. All of them in consequence of actionable ad-hominem-attacks against other forum members and/or VST staff; some of them several times after using different user accounts.
> 
> ... I could imagine that "they" handle this more liberal than most other boards you seem to regard as "sorted out".


My two last mails before being banned where very positives giving solutions to the 50 % problem

The problem is that VSL do not listen to it's users, *you have very very good products*, I have bought for more than 10 000 euro of VSL lib, but you do not suffer any remarks about your products.

*You did not say that users have been told off, and have been threatened by saying to them : is you continue speaking of .... you will be banned !
*
The other problem of VSL libs, is that the range of the instruments could be inconsistent at the articulations level.
Lately a user was complaining of the Trumpet in the Dimension Brass. Instead to recognise the problem and fix it, it went to a huge thread !
I know a very good user that is not allowed to speak of this problem, I have report this problem too ! Instead of fixing the problem you go to a fight with your users.

In all that you make your faithful users unhappy !

All this is very bad for your business, people reading those thread are going to look elsewhere and you will sell less and less products, competitors are bringing products better and better every day at a cheaper price !
Be careful not to loose your 1st place


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## novaburst (Mar 30, 2017)

muk said:


> Dongle failure/breaks: if within warranty of the dongle, VSL restores the licenses free of charge. If not covered under warranty (expired or misuse of the dongle) a fee of 20€ per license applies.



I think this is a clear understanding of there policy,

I am sure you can understand if lost or stolen it is more likely someone is getting all that VSL usage for nothing so a 50% charge is to cover that.

can only imagine that VSL will not stop the active stolen or lost license becuase there is no way of telling that some one is pulling a prank.

So for instance if i was using your machine to do some work then was noising into your folders and checked out your license, i can easily inform VSL of the licenses and say it's lost or stolen when in fact i am being malicious so what would happen if they did stop it, 

Things like that do happen it's theory but it could happen.

So for damage i think VSL are fair, for stolen or lost i think its understandable for the 50%


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## cyrilblanc (Mar 30, 2017)

novaburst said:


> can only imagine that VSL will not stop the active stolen or lost license becuase there is no way of telling that some one is pulling a prank.



Did you read what I wrote !
*Steinberg can disable the dongle and the stolen/lost licenses *


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## azeteg (Mar 30, 2017)

cyrilblanc said:


> Did you read what I wrote !
> *Steinberg can disable the dongle and the stolen/lost licenses *



There is no way to remotely disable a dongle or license.


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## cyrilblanc (Mar 30, 2017)

azeteg said:


> There is no way to remotely disable a dongle or license.


yes, As soon that you launch the eLicenser, it will check the status of your licences and your Dongle and will disable it if stolen or lost !!!!
Read Steinberg site


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## ptram (Mar 30, 2017)

Dietz,



Dietz said:


> No. I already responded earlier in this thread to set some misinformation straight.



It has been explained that the license terms are very vague. "Handling fees" and "cannot be replaced free of charge" let one believe that you will have to pay for a new key, and the time needed by an employee to remotely block the key ("[VSL] reserves the right to block its Licenses saved on the lost ViennaKey"). I found them to be very reasonable terms, when reading them before making my first purchase. I can't find reasonable the way it is handled in reality.

For what I can understand, the people discussing this issue on the various forums are not people who try to denigrate VSL's products. On the contrary, I see some names/nicknames of people who have been actively promoting them. I'm myself an advocade of VSL product's quality. I had three further instruments in my basket, before discovering the lost/stolen key handling rules.

We "crusaders", as you call us, don't appreciate how our right of using the "perpetual license to use the Software" we purchased is not granted. There is a disturbing assumption that we are trying to steal your software, and that we would do this after an intrusion in our home/studio or after a major disaster. Several of us have discovered that the same protection system is used by other companies, who have a fairer replacement policy. That's fine: a contract is something that protects both sides, not only one.

VSL is free, if the law allows, to continue doing as they have always done. It should also be made clear, to a perspective purchaser, the exact meaning of the "handling fees" term. Discovering it in a forum after the purchase is not pleasant.

I'm personally very demotivated, and I've not used "my libraries" (or, should I say "my key"?) in these latest two days. I'm simply no longer confident in their "perdurability", and a bit hurted by the rough attitude of some of the VSL personnel during this discussion. Making music requires trust, and a good relation with the instruments one is playing.

Paolo


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## NYC Composer (Mar 30, 2017)

Everything that VSL has done over the years has struck me as first rate, classy and truly admirable. I understand their need to protect their intellectual property, but this policy doesn't fit in with the VSL ethos that I have come to know, though obviously it's been part of their EULA.

Some of the bashing in this thread doesn't make sense. No one can demand a change of their policy-it's their software and they can license it as they choose. I find it baffling, but it's my choice to buy more products from them or not.


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## Arbee (Mar 30, 2017)

I like that VSL allows resale. I have no objection to dongles whatsoever. Call me naïve but I tend to believe that the replacement policy is just that, a policy, and subject to discretionary enforcement case by case in practice. Perhaps I'll regret that belief one day, but I until then I remain optimistic about an otherwise highly professional and helpful bunch of people.


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## novaburst (Mar 30, 2017)

cyrilblanc said:


> Did you read what I wrote !
> *Steinberg can disable the dongle and the stolen/lost licenses*



Well yes and no it really depends on when you find out it's lost, or stolen.

Between that time if it was stolen it can be up and running with the elicense before you even know it's gone.

And remember you don't ever need to be online to use cubase so as long as the person who found it or stole it never goes on line he or she has full access to everything on that dongle, cubase, VSL, wavelabs, nuendo, well they all need to be on that dongle but anyone can get it up and running before you even know your dongle is gone then all they need to do is stay offline.


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## ptram (Mar 30, 2017)

Novaburst, I would be perfectly fine if Vienna Instruments checked the license online, from time to time. Are there still studio computers not connected? Operating systems are now updated only online, so you would end with an obsolete machine very soon.

Paolo


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## Kejero (Mar 30, 2017)

NYC Composer said:


> No one can demand a change of their policy-it's their software and they can license it as they choose.



With uncompromising policies like that, they're not in the business of selling software licenses. In practice, they're selling very expensive usb sticks. You don't tell a customer who has spent 10000 euros on your products "Sorry, there's nothing I can do". As far as I'm concerned, they couldn't be bashed enough for that kind of attitude.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Mar 30, 2017)

Who are all these would-be thieves/aspiring composers anyway? Most two-bit criminals aint gonna be going through your stuff, see the elicenser and be like "ohh finally I can utilize true divisi with Dimension Strings!"


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## novaburst (Mar 30, 2017)

ptram said:


> Novaburst, I would be perfectly fine if Vienna Instruments checked the license online, from time to time. Are there still studio computers not connected? Operating systems are now updated only online, so you would end with an obsolete machine very soon.
> 
> Paolo



Well i have ignored all my windows 7 updates for about a year, i am still strong no crashes, or glitches still have not updated.

Yes software updates are there but unless it's a must then i just leave it, have not touched play 5.0.2 i am still happy with play 5.0.0 kontakt was a good, updated but would it have been the end of the world if i left it.....No

Many people update and wish they had never jumped

Yes composers are on line, and there are some that are not, or use other machines to go on line many are happy using there Daw off line


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## cyrilblanc (Mar 30, 2017)

ptram said:


> Novaburst, I would be perfectly fine if Vienna Instruments checked the license online, from time to time. Are there still studio computers not connected? Operating systems are now updated only online, so you would end with an obsolete machine very soon.
> 
> Paolo


PTRAM, You are right 

VSL can check every week or every day my dongle, I dont care !
They can always issue a message : "can you please log in within 48 hours to check your dongle "

There is always a MacDo around if you are on a trip !

It is very easy to call the elicenser in back ground to see if the dongle is valid. It's just a few lines of code (I have been programming for 30 years)


I do not want to have to repay what i have bought !

Best

Cyril


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## muk (Mar 30, 2017)

We start to turn around in circles here. The point that some users don't agree with the VSL 50% policy has been made abundantly clear. But has anybody actually written a polite e-mail to VSL support with your concerns? I'd suppose that would be the most effective thing a single user can do.


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## dtcomposer (Mar 30, 2017)

muk said:


> We start to turn around in circles here. The point that some users don't agree with the VSL 50% policy has been made abundantly clear. But has anybody actually written a polite e-mail to VSL support with your concerns? I'd suppose that would be the most effective thing a single user can do.



I agree. This has been an informative thread, but if we just end up going in circles and arguing about dongle policy then the good info is going to be diluted. If you have a problem with the policies of VSL then your main option is to communicate with them and try to convince them to change, and then decide whether or not to support their products. If you have already invested then you have the option of selling, or rolling the dice that you won't have a lost/stolen/broken dongle.

Somebody mentioned earlier that there are so many great companies out there producing high quality products. There is no reason to have to be reliant on VSL at this point. Personally, I am going to write them a polite email asking them to reconsider, but I don't expect them to do anything. I will also not buy anything other than possibly upgrading VePro in the future unless the policy changes. I will also make sure to inform my colleagues about the policies if they consider buying.

I would like to see a sticky at some point with information about replacement policies much like the re-seller sticky. That would be a really helpful resource when thinking about buying a product. If I have some free time in the future I might start compiling some data.


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## novaburst (Mar 30, 2017)

dtcomposer said:


> I don't expect them to do anything



I don't expect them too.

A better way is to just read before you purchase or download, every developer encourages you to do that, remember that icon before you download *DO YOU AGREE WITH THE TERMS YES OR NO* if you or anyone clicked yes. then the harsh truth is you don't have any right to write or to try and change any policy.

or you just should have clicked no, and the software would not of loaded on your machine. this may sting a little but its true, you may not support VSL any more but I think they are aware of that anyway, they are also aware many will support there top of the range samples even with there very tough rules and return policy because people just want quality, and that's why after all is why users keep coming back to VSL.

We don't even have the right to speak against them on this thread if you clicked the yes sign, if VSL were politically correct they could hit every one with a law suit for deprivation of character and show the courts proof that you agreed with there terms.

If you agreed with there terms, you cant suddenly disagree when it suits you, it means you don't speak out against what you previously agreed with.


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## dtcomposer (Mar 30, 2017)

novaburst said:


> I don't expect them too.
> 
> A better way is to just read before you purchase or download, every developer encourages you to do that, remember that icon before you download *DO YOU AGREE WITH THE TERMS YES OR NO* if you or anyone clicked yes. then the harsh truth is you don't have any right to write or to try and change any policy.
> 
> ...



With all due respect, you are not doing a great job of understanding the complaint here. The complaint is that the terms are NOT CLEARLY LAID OUT IN THE USER AGREEMENT. Go back and read the agreement and see if they mention anything about a 50% fee, or really any specifics about what they will charge if you lose your licenses. Perhaps the language they use is all they need to do legally, but it is deceptive not to let the user know the exact terms. It is not reasonable for somebody to be able to infer that their policy means they will have to pay a 50% fee. That kind of fee is completely outside of the norm for any other sample library company I've experienced.

Hopefully that clears up the issue for you. All your responses seem to point to you not understanding the real issue here. If I have somehow missed the specific language in the agreement, I will be happy to retract this comment.


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## germancomponist (Mar 30, 2017)

If they built a new stage what not sounds like "...cement walls - reflections....", then: Congrats! I am impressed!


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## novaburst (Mar 30, 2017)

dtcomposer said:


> esponses seem to point to you not understanding


Perhaps I don't understand a lot of what your saying but weather there terms are clear or not, once you click yes, what your saying is you understand.


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## dtcomposer (Mar 30, 2017)

novaburst said:


> Perhaps I don't understand a lot of what your saying but weather there terms are clear or not, once you click yes, what your saying is you understand.



That's fine. I already acknowledged that they might be covered legally. I find the wording in the agreement to be deceptive, or at least far too vague for such a major, and unique policy. The good thing is that now more people will have the full information before purchasing. To me that is a good and moral thing. We should all be happy that consumers will be better aware of the specifics.

I don't think there's much more to say on the topic.


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## novaburst (Mar 30, 2017)

dtcomposer said:


> That's fine. I already acknowledged that they might be covered legally. I find the wording in the agreement to be deceptive, or at least far too vague for such a major, and unique policy. The good thing is that now more people will have the full information before purchasing. To me that is a good and moral thing. We should all be happy that consumers will be better aware of the specifics.
> 
> I don't think there's much more to say on the topic.



Look who reads terms and conditions, i dont, but maybe at least we should give it a go.

Becuase by clicking on the yes we are all saying we read and understood.

There is even a part there that says we reserve the right to change and make changes with out your consent.

So at least let us spend time with the wording and law, of software before we click the yes sign


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## cyrilblanc (Mar 30, 2017)

novaburst said:


> Look who reads terms and conditions, i dont, but maybe at least we should give it a go.
> 
> Becuase by clicking on the yes we are all saying we read and understood.
> 
> ...



I have consult a lawyer, the clause of the 50 % is totally illegal in respect of European, American and Australian laws.
VSL should give you a solution to backup your dongle !


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## TintoL (Mar 30, 2017)

wow, this thread is moving so fast I can not read it all. So much good info. I didn't bother sending them the dongles because it will cost me money to send them with no full proof that they will reconsider. They sounded very clear to their decision. And to be honest, I wast kind of tired of the stage placement task with vsl. Too much work for me. I honestly don't have any problems with the dongles. Specially with the type of dongles like ilok, that really saved my life. They even gave me temporary licenses. It cost me but it was worth it.

At the end, I rather have and pay for the kontakt licenses. Nothing is better that that.

I share an image of the mess and my VPC1 almost completelly burned.


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## cyrilblanc (Mar 30, 2017)

TintoL said:


> I didn't bother sending them the dongles because it will cost me money to send them with no full proof that they will reconsider.



I have understand that if you send them the broken/burn dongle, you will have only to pay for the dongle !
Am I wrong ?


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## TintoL (Mar 30, 2017)

that's not what they said. They said that if the dongle was damaged and they could see no licenses they will not be able to do it. But, at the end it worked for me, because I wanted to move away from vsl dry samples. I was mainly trying to get all the woodwinds. But, nahh... spitfire and orchestral tools is more than enough.


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## chapbot (Mar 30, 2017)

Something's fishy. If I lost $10k of sample libraries in a fire you better believe I'd do whatever it took to get them back. Not mailing VSL your melted dongles that won't work anyway? Huh? And I can't imagine any company, no matter how wacky, not understanding and trying to help. Otherwise I'd complain on so many websites their heads would spin.


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## muk (Mar 31, 2017)

cyrilblanc said:


> I have consult a lawyer, the clause of the 50 % is totally illegal in respect of European, American and Australian laws.



Surely VSL had their terms of license checked by a lawyer before releasing them. Apparently their lawyer has come to a different conclusion about the legality of that clause. No ruling so far, so we can not know. But it's certainly worth seeking legal advice if your dongle is stolen or lost.


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## azeteg (Mar 31, 2017)

cyrilblanc said:


> yes, As soon that you launch the eLicenser, it will check the status of your licences and your Dongle and will disable it if stolen or lost !!!!
> Read Steinberg site



A user actively clicking on "Maintenance" when opening up the License Control Center does not equal "Remote Disabling".


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## dtcomposer (Mar 31, 2017)

azeteg said:


> A user actively clicking on "Maintenance" when opening up the License Control Center does not equal "Remote Disabling".



So are you saying officially that there is no way to disable licenses unless the user chooses the maintenance option? There seems to be some competing narratives about this. Thanks for responding here, btw. It would be great to have some VSL communication in the thread.


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## mcalis (Mar 31, 2017)

You know, I was kind of interested in their upcoming libraries as well as their woodwinds but this policy makes no sense to me. I'm glad that I was made aware of this rather absurd policy and will refrain from making any purchases from them until a better policy is in place.


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## novaburst (Mar 31, 2017)

muk said:


> certainly worth seeking lega



Don't mean to continue this foolishness, so what your saying is that VSL must replace your license if it's stolen or lost.

The answer is you don't even need a lawyer for that, no developers or comperny needs to replace nothing and no courts can not force any developer to pay 

They will just say it is your responsibility you lost it why should the developer supply a new one that means you get two for the price of one, 

Once it's in your hands your responsble not the developer.

They don't even need to do anything if your dongle is damaged through an accident or neglect.

So VSL are doing more than they need to by even offering 50% for lost, or pay for a new dongle for damaged.

I think it's very unreasonable some of the post here, and believe alot is written with out alot of thought.

Just settle for that and stop trying mission Impossible.


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## muk (Mar 31, 2017)

I am saying nothing of the sort, and for the sake of good order I am just going to assume it was a language barrier kind of thing. Arguments on both sides have been laid out clearly for anyone who cares to read and there is little need to discuss it further.


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## TintoL (Mar 31, 2017)

Until it happens to you... Nothing is better than kontakt registered libraries. Just get a good insurance full replacement. Muk said it correctly: The terms are clear when you buy. You just never read the tiny letters describing a possible situation you never thought could happened to you.


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## C-Wave (Apr 1, 2017)

If I may, my two cents is what some other companies do, and what in fact VSL does with their software but not virtual instruments; which is allow for three licenses in the first place all to the same registered user. Even two licenses in this case would do just fine, where a user can then place the second USB key either backup license in bank deposit box or in a safe.


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## spaunsam7 (Apr 1, 2017)

Has anybody here tried the Audition Credits from VSL? Still a little confused as to how that works.


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## cyrilblanc (Apr 1, 2017)

read:
https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/en-us/articles/206532304-Steinberg-Zero-Downtime

and
https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=198&t=107404



azeteg said:


> A user actively clicking on "Maintenance" when opening up the License Control Center does not equal "Remote Disabling".



Where did you see that ?
Steinberg told me that if you launch the eLicenser it will check the validity your dongle and your licenses


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## C-Wave (Apr 1, 2017)

cyrilblanc said:


> read:
> https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/en-us/articles/206532304-Steinberg-Zero-Downtime
> 
> and
> ...


True. Actually since logically they have the capacity to allow the software/vi to run, after confirming the existence and by extension the non-existence of a connected USB key WITH A CERTAIN SERIAL NUMBER, then they have the capacity to also block that same key if they wish. IT CANNOT BE THAT THEY CAN DO ONE AND NOT THE OTHER. PERIOD.


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## MarcelM (Apr 1, 2017)

cyrilblanc said:


> read:
> https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/en-us/articles/206532304-Steinberg-Zero-Downtime
> 
> and
> ...



but it will only check the online database if you click on mainteance. they could disable a dongle this way, sure. but without going online they couldnt.

besides that, i wouldnt even consider buying anything from VSL while reading this.

customer service is often quite bad in the world of samples, but thx god... not always.


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## cyrilblanc (Apr 1, 2017)

Heroix said:


> but it will only check the online database if you click on mainteance. they could disable a dongle this way, sure. but without going online they couldnt.



It's very easy to launch a task in background to check the dongle and disable it


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## ptram (Apr 2, 2017)

cyrilblanc said:


> Steinberg told me that if you launch the eLicenser it will check the validity your dongle and your licenses



I may add that when you launch Vienna Instruments, the software says that it is checking the licenses. It is probably checking them in the key, but I bet it could cross-check them with the online database. If the licenses found are on a lost or stolen key, VI could simply stop working.

Paolo


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## kitekrazy (Apr 2, 2017)

So who uses VSL "religiously". I like their software. It seems like you can do so much once you have a mastery of their software. I have all of their SE Vol. 1, VE Pro 6, VI Pro. I try to build up my VSL collection one piece at a time.


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## Lee Blaske (Apr 2, 2017)

kitekrazy said:


> So who uses VSL "religiously".



The fit and finish of VSL instruments is impeccable. You really get consistency of tuning and response. You don't get that odd note that sticks out like a sore thumb as you do in some other libraries.


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## Eloy (Apr 2, 2017)

VSL instruments are flawless. Their software interface - no one can match - MIR room=wow (not to mention other libraries can fit in MIR) - do not forget about Vienna suite. Does it require time? Yes it does. Is it my only library - no. But it is the software/libraries that all others are judged- at least by me.


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## cyrilblanc (Apr 2, 2017)

YES, VSL has great libraries, there software is great too, probably the BEST one if you use the PRO version

I love also MIR that make you save a big time when mixing as all your instruments are EQ and placed.

The only problems are inconsistent range on some instruments, no NKS support and there commercial policy about the 50%


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## marclawsonmusic (Apr 2, 2017)

cyrilblanc said:


> read:
> https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/en-us/articles/206532304-Steinberg-Zero-Downtime
> 
> and
> ...



Hi Cyril, I think the issue was whether 'remote disable' of licenses was possible - and I can tell you it is not possible in all cases. Someone could conceivably steal (or give or sell) a license key and never connect it to the internet. Or just unplug the key while online. 

PS - For some of us, there once was a world without the Internet, and it is useful to remember that most computers still function when not connected.

So, it is a valid concern on the part of the developer... at least in my opinion.

PPS - In other news... Why is this thread still alive?


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## xenon1 (Apr 2, 2017)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Why is this thread still alive?



Because <VSL is probably the only company in the world> that charge their customers 50% of full price for losing usb dongle.
Many people would be shocked as I was, even though you weren't. 
Except this issue I almost respect them and their great softwares.


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## marclawsonmusic (Apr 2, 2017)

redacted... you guys have fun


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## Nathanael Iversen (Apr 2, 2017)

I very much appreciate the consistency and excellence of their libraries. There is a uniform quality to their libraries that is impressive. The dongles are permanently plugged into my machines. Do many people travel with theirs? I think of most composing rigs as relatively stationary, or at least my main DAW is and the several slaves.


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## cyrilblanc (Apr 2, 2017)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Hi Cyril, I think the issue was whether 'remote disable' of licenses was possible - and I can tell you it is not possible in all cases. Someone could conceivably steal (or give or sell) a license key and never connect it to the internet. Or just unplug the key while online.
> 
> PS - For some of us, there once was a world without the Internet, and it is useful to remember that most computers still function when not connected.
> 
> So, it is a valid concern on the part of the developer... at least in my opinion.



It is easy to oblige to connect to Internet every so often, otherwise the licenses are disabled


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## cyrilblanc (Apr 2, 2017)

Nathanael Iversen said:


> Do many people travel with theirs?


Because of the 50 % clause I don't

I travel 3 to 4 months a year ; at the moment, when I travel I use Logic and EXS24 ; when I return I move it to VSL
I may move to Dorico soon using HSO on travel ; when I return I will use VSL, but all articulation will be set.


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## kitekrazy (Apr 3, 2017)

xenon1 said:


> Because <VSL is probably the only company in the world> that charge their customers 50% of full price for losing usb dongle.
> Many people would be shocked as I was, even though you weren't.
> Except this issue I almost respect them and their great softwares.



So what is this price. The elicensers are about $40 each. I got mine from the no longer used GVI and GS4.


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## cyrilblanc (Apr 6, 2017)

kitekrazy said:


> So what is this price. The elicensers are about $40 each. I got mine from the no longer used GVI and GS4.


You have to pay 50 % of the library that you already bought ; so if you own for 10 000 € of VSL library you will have to pay 5 000 € to recover your lost licenses


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## N.Caffrey (Apr 6, 2017)

cyrilblanc said:


> You have to pay 50 % of the library that you already bought ; so if you own for 10 000 € of VSL library you will have to pay 5 000 € to recover your lost licenses



I really can't believe it. Apart form not liking the sound of their libraries at all, I'd never, ever, ever buy anything from them just for this reason


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## cyrilblanc (Apr 6, 2017)

N.Caffrey said:


> Apart form not liking the sound of their libraries at all,


It's the best orchestral library available if you use VE PRO and MIR PRO! what are your reproaches ?


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## N.Caffrey (Apr 6, 2017)

I'm talking about the sound. Too dry and synthy. @ctsai89 do you agree?


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## muk (Apr 6, 2017)

How comes every thread about VSL turns into a bashing and every thread about some other developers into a dance around the golden calf? Anyway, if you can't get good results with VSL it's not the samples fault. They are among the best you can buy today. Whether you like them or not is another issue, but they definitely don't sound synthy if you know how to use them.


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## cyrilblanc (Apr 6, 2017)

N.Caffrey said:


> I'm talking about the sound. Too dry and synthy. @ctsai89 do you agree?


You are joking ! or you have some sand in your ears !
Of course they are dry ! this is so you can chose the IR of the room you want to use !
If you use VE PRO each notes are different avoiding machine gun effect like you have in East West lib
Legatos are beautiful !
Listen the pieces on VSL site, it is very difficult to find a difference with a real orchestra !


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## Rodney Money (Apr 6, 2017)

I have not been on the forum for a few days, but it is interesting that some recent posts including mine were deleted. Maybe the discussion went too far concerning costs and placing all one's eggs in the same basket? I personally believe that mixing libraries is the best solution concerning virtual instruments. Not only does it help create your own unique sound, but I feel like it helps mask different libraries' flaws. I also personally believe that even though VSL originally was conceived with the western classical tradition in mind, other libraries including those for cinematic purposes still can render music for the intended concert stage sound also. As good as VSL sounds, especially some of the solo libraries, I do not personally, for my own music, trust an all VSL template, but feel the need to mix libraries in the hopelessness reach of realism. Here's an example of how I would mix VSL with more wet, cinematic libraries for classical renderings. Here is the opening of Holst's 1st Suite for Band, Chaconne:
 
And starting at around 1:50 how I would create an euphonium choir using different companies' samples including VSL:


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## Rodney Money (Apr 6, 2017)

muk said:


> How comes every thread about VSL turns into a bashing and every thread about some other developers into a dance around the golden calf? Anyway, if you can't get good results with VSL it's not the samples fault. They are among the best you can buy today. Whether you like them or not is another issue, but they definitely don't sound synthy if you know how to use them.


Absolutely, it's how you use them. Here's a melody done with VSL Flugelhorn Solo:

And then with a wetter, more cinematic library but with trumpet ensemble:

The tones of both sound pretty natural to me.


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## byzantium (Apr 6, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> I have not been on the forum for a few days, but it is interesting that some recent posts including mine were deleted. Maybe the discussion went too far...



Hi Rodney, vi-control lost about 14 hours of posts yesterday due to a crash / attack. 
Regards, Paul.


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## Rodney Money (Apr 6, 2017)

byzantium said:


> Hi Rodney, vi-control lost about 14 hours of posts yesterday due to a crash / attack.
> Regards, Paul.


Ah thank you! I was thinking to myself, "Was I too controversial?" Lol.


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## byzantium (Apr 6, 2017)

Doesn't appear so! They appear to be restoring some posts, no doubt prioritising the commercial announcements - for example there was a commercial post from cinesamples (yes cinesamples) yesterday on their updated CB Pro Twelve Horn Ensemble (don't know if you've seen / you may be interested), which I think disappeared today (at least I couldn't find it on a search), but is now there.


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## Rodney Money (Apr 6, 2017)

byzantium said:


> Doesn't appear so! They appear to be restoring some posts, no doubt prioritising the commercial announcements - for example there was a commercial post from cinesamples (yes cinesamples) yesterday on their updated CB Pro Twelve Horn Ensemble (don't know if you've seen / you may be interested), which I think disappeared today (at least I couldn't find it on a search), but is now there.


Oh yes! I am always happy and interested about updates!


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## N.Caffrey (Apr 6, 2017)

cyrilblanc said:


> You are joking ! or you have some sand in your ears !
> Of course they are dry ! this is so you can chose the IR of the room you want to use !
> If you use VE PRO each notes are different avoiding machine gun effect like you have in East West lib
> Legatos are beautiful !
> Listen the pieces on VSL site, it is very difficult to find a difference with a real orchestra !



Okay I've been a bit unfair, listening to the demos on the website the WW sound good, strings not my favourites (just my taste!).. I probably heard some bad demos made by users then and been mislead


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## Rodney Money (Apr 6, 2017)

N.Caffrey said:


> Okay I've been a bit unfair, listening to the demos on the website the WW sound good, strings not my favourites (just my taste!).. I probably heard some bad demos made by users then and been mislead


In your defense though you might of heard a little too much higher, brighter frequencies in some of the brass causing them to sound "tingly," or heard some demos that were not either panned realistically or renderings that were too quantized.


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## novaburst (Apr 6, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> I personally believe that mixing libraries is the best solution concerning virtual instruments. Not only does it help create your own unique sound



Totally agree with you @Rodney Money, you are right on the money my friend.

I think in my case VSL especially Strings have a strong sterile tone to them (VSL orchestral strings) and always used to spare head layering.

I do believe VSL are top of the league but can never use them on there own as with any String or brass library.
Also I can never layer with out VSL.

I have also heard a lot of orchestral muckups being used primarily VSL as the main library and they can be mind blowing.


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## byzantium (Apr 6, 2017)

novaburst said:


> I have also heard a lot of orchestral muckups [using] VSL as the main library.



I love these Freudian slips.


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## byzantium (Apr 6, 2017)

Maybe I could start a new Orchestral Muckup Service.
Send in your sketches and I'll muck it up.


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## thereus (Aug 19, 2017)

Has VSL got any plans for remediating this policy? I was about to buy the symphonic cube and VEPRO but will revise both my hardware and sample plans after reading all this.


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## muk (Aug 19, 2017)

thereus said:


> Has VSL got any plans for remediating this policy? I was about to buy the symphonic cube and VEPRO but will revise both my hardware and sample plans after reading all this.



Best write to VSL directly and ask them about it. I don't think they have any plans to change the policy, but the more people voice their concern the likelier they will think about it.


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## thereus (Aug 19, 2017)

muk said:


> Best write to VSL directly and ask them about it. I don't think they have any plans to change the policy, but the more people voice their concern the likelier they will think about it.


I have done. We shall see.


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## cyrilblanc (Aug 19, 2017)

Sorry for my English !
I have spoke to Steinberg, they are ready to give VSL users the same condition than the Steinberg users. (you just need to pay the dongle if you loose it)

I have spoke to VSL and on VSL's forum, there is no way that they change there policy and they have even banned me from the forum for one year. They do not allow to be criticised ! what does it remember you ?

Lately I received a PM from another user, they did not allow me to read it. this was the drop that made the vase to overflow !

I am not buying more products from VSL until they change there policy and I am even thinking to sell my 10 000 € lib ! (if I sell my libs VSL want 1 000 € to change the ownership of my libs)

VSL if cutting off the branch where they are sitting on. They have great products but a very bad marketing policy.

When VSL started to sell there libs they refused to make special offers. Since a few year they had special offers only at XMAS, and now it is every two or three month. This indicates that less user are buying VSL libs at there nominal expensive price.
And a lot of user are worried to pay 50% of there libs in case of lost of Dongle.

More and more manufacturer are selling symphonic libs at a cheaper price.
I will not be surprised if VSL get bankrupt !

If you write about this VSL 50 % clause you are likely to be banned too.

VSL is saying to insure your libs, but I have not found yet an insurance company that will insure the licenses that are on the dongle. (they insure the dongle but not it's contents for 29 euro only) 
I have even give VSL the idea to make a deal with an Insurance company so this company make a special contract for VSL users, the answer was it was not there job to contact the company.


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## thereus (Aug 19, 2017)

You are making my decision very easy Cyril.


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## cyrilblanc (Aug 25, 2017)

thereus said:


> I have done. We shall see.


Did you get an answer from VSL


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## thereus (Aug 25, 2017)

I did. I got some very detailed replies and they are happy for me to quote them here which I will at some point over the weekend.

The TL:DR version is:


VSL reserves the right to charge you in full for another license if you lose your key. It might help you out a bit on a case by case basis, but the 50% option is not guarenteed.
VSL feels that it has to do that because of the way Steinberg works and to avoid people giving keys to their mates and claiming they are lost.
VSL does not have plans to change this situation.
The marketing department are going to be informed of my suggestion that they make this situation clearer in their pre-sales info, apparently.
VSL thinks you should insure against losing the key and is not very interested in whether such policies actually exist or not.
I am not going to buy VSL's libraries because of this and I think you shouldn't either.
In an unrelated observation, I notice that flights from Vienna to Berlin can be purchased for as little as £63.


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## Arbee (Aug 25, 2017)

It's probably smart to play hard ball publicly on policy, but if a case was clearly genuine and compelling enough beyond any doubt whatsoever, I'd be very surprised if they didn't relax the rules at least a little.....


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## Michael Antrum (Aug 26, 2017)

Maybe so, but would you want to gamble thousands of dollars based on some else's good will, because I certainly don't.

Insurance companies also do not want to know, at least in the U.K.

So, as I travel a fair bit, VSL libraries hold no interest for me - I have Ve Pro - but the cost of that is a risk I can bear. I'm nervous enough with my cubase dongle, but then again, they don't treat their customers as criminals. 

I do hope they reconsider, but until then I'll put my money into other libraries. It's such a shame, but hopefully they will look at this again in the future - if they do, then I will be first in the queue for their woodwinds library.....


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## cyrilblanc (Aug 26, 2017)

Arbee said:


> I'd be very surprised if they didn't relax the rules at least a little.....



You can always dream ! It is many year that they have this policy ! It is many years users are fighting !
Earlier this year they where even saying that Steinberg was charging to renew a lost licence, THIS IS TOTALY FALSE, Steinberg is just charging for a new key

If somebody know an insurance company I will be very interested


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## Spip (Aug 26, 2017)

thereus said:


> I did. I got some very detailed replies and they are happy for me to quote them here which I will at some point over the weekend.
> 
> The TL:DR version is:
> 
> ...



Thank you very much ! 

Now that I use VEP all day long and find it pretty good, I was on the fence to try some of their libraries...


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## micrologus (Aug 26, 2017)

I love VSL products for the sound quality, but since I know about the risk of breaking the e-licenser and the consequences, using VSL libraries gives me anxiety... before it was a great joy to play them. Now I prefer to use other libraries, what a pity!...


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## Quasar (Aug 26, 2017)

I have never gotten involved in any dongle-infested corporofascist CP, and this thread certainly did nothing to make me change my mind.


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## Michael Antrum (Aug 26, 2017)

It's not the dongle I have a problem with. I have no major issues with them protecting their work with a dongle. God knows I have used ilok for long enough.

I think it is terrific that they allow you to resell your licences - though the fees get a bit steep if you are selling more than a few.

It is the risk of losing your entire investment. And now we hear the 50% discount is discretionary !!

My opinion is that VSL are losing far more in sales that they would in fraud with their policy. I hope that eventually that they will realise that most of their customers are not thieves and change this policy.


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## Quasar (Aug 26, 2017)

There will be no fairness for the honest end user with any of this stuff until people organize and demand it. It astonishes me how much oppressive crapola people are willing to accept, even as the cultural norms of how 21st software is disseminated are just beginning to become established and crystallize.

I'm getting locked out of everything now, since Native Instruments has ended offline activation of its libraries, so I will have no choice but to use what I have, buy a couple more Kontakt 5.6.6 or earlier products to complete my virtual orchestral universe, and then I am done being a consumer in this arena until after the revolution.

Music software is just a microcosm of the larger society: "Anti-piracy" as an umbrella term justifies any draconian CP abuse in exactly the same way that "anti-terrorism" justifies the curtailment of civil liberties in civic life more generally. Capitalism perverts everything it touches.


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## wst3 (Aug 26, 2017)

In general I support software vendors that take any action to protect their business - just makes sense to me, they are more likely to be around for the long haul. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate it when a developer shows that they trust their customers, but I've seen a few of them abandon the marketplace, and a couple of times that has had a negative impact on my work. Of course I've also had protected software become unusable because the company went out of business, or was acquired.

Geez! What's a person to do? The obvious answer is that people should stop stealing software. The other obvious answer is that developers should be more responsible, providing an avenue by which customers can continue to use the software in the event the company is no longer active. The first isn't going to happen, the second does happen, but only in isolated cases.

I understand the thought process behind the VSL policy. I still think it punishes the honest customer, and that's bad. In this case REALLY BAD!

I like dongles - been using them since the days of the Waves Parallel Port dongle. They make it easy to install or move software, or to work in someone else's studio. For the most part they've been reliable (there was a big iLok glitch a few years ago, but they came up with a temp fix quickly, and solved the problem shortly thereafter, if I remember correctly.)

But I can't make any further investments in VSL libraries. The risk of being required to pay a huge sum to get them back is unacceptable. Which is really unfortunate, because I do like the VSL libraries I already own.

TL;DR

The VSL policy for library replacement is onerous, an I will no longer consider their products, except VEPro.


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## muk (Aug 26, 2017)

The big question is if this policy is only onerous, or if it is actually illegal. VSL argues that you can't resell the libraries you bought without paying them a 10%-fee, because you didn't buy a 'product' but a license to use the recordings included in their libraries. Fine. But by that logic breaking/loosing a hardware dongle should not affect your license. If the hardware dongle is the important piece then you should be allowed to sell it without restriction and without fees applying. From my understanding either one or the other policy would not stand in court. They contradict each other. But there is no knowing before it is tested in court, and chances of that are probably slim.

In any case this policy seems to have put off a number of possible customers, and I guess it will continue to do so as long as it stands.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Aug 26, 2017)

I don't know the EULA in detail and am not sure on the laws on this one. But, if VSL and other companies offered an insurance service, that would be great.

I mean, once you have already paid in full for the library, one could simply add an yearly fee for insurance. Some countries have insurance for software on dongles, unfortunately no such thing available in many other countries, including mine. 

The way insurance works on large scale, even if VSL had to re-issue libraries in full for free once in a while, they will still make extra money to keep support going and stay protected.

The existing model is good but it needs a refresher.

I have heard Steinberg have been a bit relaxed in some cases but again AFAIK, they can refuse any re-issue and you need to buy Cubase again. 

As for, some people providing their opinion - like, VSL has lost sales because of this policy is pure speculation. They have had this policy for years and as people are well aware, it is a rock solid company with big financial success!


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## novaburst (Aug 26, 2017)

wst3 said:


> But I can't make any further investments in VSL libraries. The risk of being required to pay a huge sum to get them back is unacceptable. Which is really unfortunate, because I do like the VSL libraries I already own.
> 
> TL;DR
> 
> The VSL policy for library replacement is onerous, an I will no longer consider their products, except VEPro.


Big deal who cares weather you buy from VSL or not in fact who cares weather any one doe or not.

If you want to change a developers policy then offer them some cash to take over and run the company if not go some where else and get your stuff.

griping and moaning over a developer policy is pissing stupid, who is forcing you and all the rest the bashers to buy from VSL.

So if I don't like a developers selling policy so pissing what must I now go on a forum and start saying oh my gosh that developer is so unfair,................ big deal.

no ones forcing me to purchase nothing and I have got the sense to read before I purchase, but I ant going to start making a thread just because I don't like a developers policy for crying out loud go some where else and get your software.



wst3 said:


> I will no longer consider their products, except VEPro.



how ironic you are so plastic, why don't you show some back bone and stop every thing that comes from VSL including VEpro be a true solider, be a true campaigner ...........


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## Quasar (Aug 26, 2017)

novaburst said:


> no ones forcing me to purchase nothing and I have got the sense to read before I purchase, but I ant going to start making a thread just because I don't like a developers policy for crying out loud go some where else and get your software.



This vacuously cliched argument of "no one is forcing you so don't complain" is straight-up bullshit, and the enemy of justice and human rights whenever and wherever it is deployed.




novaburst said:


> how ironic you are so plastic, why don't you show some back bone and stop every thing that comes from VSL including VEpro be a true solider, be a true campaigner ...........



I agree most enthusiastically with this, minus the sarcasm.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 26, 2017)

Quasar said:


> I have never gotten involved in any dongle-infested corporofascist CP, and this thread certainly did nothing to make me change my mind.



Keep on fighting the good fight, I guess. Jeez. /facepalm


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## thereus (Aug 26, 2017)

novaburst said:


> Big deal who cares weather you buy from VSL or not in fact who cares weather any one doe or not.
> 
> If you want to change a developers policy then offer them some cash to take over and run the company if not go some where else and get your stuff.
> 
> ...



Ok, let's keep it civil. So we seem to have a spectrum of opinions as to copy protection in general which is hardly surprising and I am not sure it is that interesting. This particular issue is more specific.

It could be a major blow to someone to have to buy a full orchestral library again because of a key loss and this policy is not regular industry practice.

Now it has been clarified, some will choose to buy the libraries anyway, some will choose not to. Good luck to both, I say.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to post about it though. Some people have expressed some concern knowing that they are running this risk and are not able to enjoy using the libraries outside their studio, for instance. If it is really putting a lot of people off, VSL might want to know that so that they can make a rational decision as to whether to review their policy or not. Also, if prospective buyers are unaware of it, it makes sense to let everyone know so that they are able to make informed buying decisions. An open conversation is what we are about here.


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## novaburst (Aug 26, 2017)

thereus said:


> it makes sense to let everyone know so that they are able to make informed buying decisions. An open conversation is what we are about here.



simple read before you buy, make your own decision, don't start a campaign.

how many dongles get broken through out the years, how many get lost, or how many get stolen, or how many suddenly stop working, hardly any but when it comes to VSL suddenly oh no my dongle may get stolen or it may get lost oh my gosh VSL should change there policy, please give me a break.

There policy has been set in stone since time began people who can afford it and want great sound will choose VSL in there production, if you don't like there policy I will say again go some where else and get your library.

Starting threads to discourage people from purchasing library's from any developer is unfair discrimination esp if that developer is abiding by the law and sales distribution codes and practices.

What becomes unlawful is this type of thread to discriminate no matter if the Developer is big or small is unlawful and criminal practice, you do it simply because you can get away with it and your not going to get slapped with a great big law suite and summons to appear in court for desecration of character.

Weather VSL change there policy or not is down to them it is not down to you to start giving them a bad name or trying to convince the world there practices are wrong.

Try that in a real world and see how far you get before lawyers start knocking at your door with a court summons.
if you don't want VSL good luck to you but its time you and others stop encouraging bad mouth post and threads against developers, just get on with your music, or production, or your life if you got nothing good to say about anyone.

and stop calling it a conversation its not its discrimination get your facts right


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## Lotias (Aug 26, 2017)

novaburst said:


> simple read before you buy, make your own decision, don't start a campaign.
> 
> how many dongles get broken through out the years, how many get lost, or how many get stolen, or how many suddenly stop working, hardly any but when it comes to VSL suddenly oh no my dongle may get stolen or it may get lost oh my gosh VSL should change there policy, please give me a break.
> 
> ...


I don't think anything he's doing can be considered criminal, much less """""discrimination""""". I personally don't care as much about VSL's dongle policy, but he's got the right to complain that it's anti-consumer.


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## Syneast (Aug 26, 2017)

novaburst said:


> how many dongles get broken through out the years, how many get lost, or how many get stolen, or how many suddenly stop working


Probably not a lot, but the thing is, when your investment depends on the state of the physical dongle alone, the state of that dongle becomes way more important, to the point where you obsess over it. I personally hate having to buy a new dongle every 2 years, and still not be sure that it will protect my investment.

If other companies using dongles don't have this hostile policy, then why does VSL have to have it? They won't be getting any more of my money until they rethink the license management. They could for instance simply go the iLok route and that would be the end of it.


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## JohnG (Aug 26, 2017)

I like iLok.

I wish VSL would reconsider the silent stage. I love their software and support.


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## Lotias (Aug 26, 2017)

JohnG said:


> I like iLok.
> 
> I wish VSL would reconsider the silent stage. I love their software and support.


Reconsider how? They're working on their wet Synchron Stage libraries and there's not much reason to re-do the dry libraries they've already made.


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## novaburst (Aug 26, 2017)

Syneast said:


> They won't be getting any more of my money until they rethink the license management.



I take it your not going to get there new percussion, ooooh well.


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## novaburst (Aug 26, 2017)

I think you all should know this.

When ever you purchase anything from VSL you get an account, with in that account you get all the librarys and software you purchased on a down load link with in your account and they remain there for ever.

as long as you keep details of your licenses in a folder or something you should be fine if you brake or accidently drop your dongle in a cup of coffee.

At the very least all you need to do is purchase a new dongle then head to VSL open your account grab your license details and you should up and running and you don't even need to call support.

all your details are kept in your account so why the big fuss.

I think you all need to check what you can actually do if you drown your dongle its quite easy to get back up and running


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## Lotias (Aug 26, 2017)

novaburst said:


> I think you all should know this.
> 
> When ever you purchase anything from VSL you get an account, with in that account you get all the librarys and software you purchased on a down load link with in your account.
> 
> ...


Well that's not how it works at all iirc. VSL's instructions in the event of dongle failure, as I recall them, are to mail them the broken dongle and wait for repairs or a new one - if it's still under warranty. I don't think you can just redownload the licenses from their website, and I've never heard that claimed before by anybody, including VSL official support.


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## Michael Antrum (Aug 26, 2017)

novaburst said:


> I think you all should know this.
> 
> When ever you purchase anything from VSL you get an account, with in that account you get all the librarys and software you purchased on a down load link with in your account and they remain there for ever.
> 
> ...



I think you ought to check your facts before posting incorrect information like this.

I read on the VSL website that if you break your dongle, you need to return it to VSL for inspection, along with copies of your original purchase invoices, and VSL will then consider your request for new licences. If the dongle failed within warranty, and not as a result of damage (like being dropped in a cup of coffee) then the dongle will be replaced free of charge.

If however, the dongle is out of warranty, or is damaged (like being dropped in a cup of coffee), then you will need to pay 20 euro per product (minimum charge 30 euro) for new licences plus the cost of a new key. I have heard that VSL support is very good indeed, so they would probably get your new licences turned around in a day or two after receiving your broken dongle back.

If you are going to lecture everyone else, then the least you can do is to get your facts right.


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## thereus (Aug 26, 2017)

novaburst said:


> simple read before you buy, make your own decision, don't start a campaign.
> 
> how many dongles get broken through out the years, how many get lost, or how many get stolen, or how many suddenly stop working, hardly any but when it comes to VSL suddenly oh no my dongle may get stolen or it may get lost oh my gosh VSL should change there policy, please give me a break.
> 
> ...



I am happy for you if you have never lost anything small and important while setting up kit around lots of people. I have a rather different experience of life. It is a risk of which I am generally very conscious. 

I am not sure we are saying anything that different. The VSL policy to retain the right to charge for the full product in the event of a lost key will deter some and not others from purchasing. I think that it is not acceptable to me and will vote with my wallet accordingly just as you advise. There are plenty of alternatives, but it seems a pity as the VSL libraries do sound fantastic and there are many other ways of protecting data. If VSL wants the business of people who think as I do, they might want to change tack. If they are happy without it then there is no need for them to do so, as you also observe. Opening a discussion on a forum like this seems like a good way to let them know that there is a untapped market for them if they choose to find another solution to the issue. 

(I'm going to take no notice of the stuff about the legality, nomenclature and ethics of commenting on a company's service in a forum, save to point out that there is nothing remotely untoward in such a discussion.)


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## thereus (Aug 26, 2017)

mikeybabes said:


> I think you ought to check your facts before posting incorrect information like this.
> 
> I read on the VSL website that if you break your dongle, you need to return it to VSL for inspection, along with copies of your original purchase invoices, and VSL will then consider your request for new licences. If the dongle failed within warranty, and not as a result of damage (like being dropped in a cup of coffee) then the dongle will be replaced free of charge.
> 
> ...



Broken / recoverable dongles are one thing, lost dongles another.


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## Eloy (Aug 26, 2017)

Below is a response from VSL on the VSL forum (lost key policy);

"We'd prefer to live in a world without product piracy. But as long this isn't the case, we all have to deal with copy protection. We're providing our customers with a safe system, it hasn't been cracked up to now and works offline as well. So, if a key get's lost, everybody who finds this key has unrestricted acces to the licenses. Free replacement licenses would harm our company, we simply can't afford such a solution. We believe, taking care of the key is nothing but self-responsibility. You won't expect any kind of warning if you put 1.000 bucks into your wallet. It's common sense that you won't get the money back if you loose it. To meet uninsured customers half way in lost key matters, we're offering 50% discount for the replacement licenses and a free 48 hours all application license as first, quick help.

Regards, Michael Hula
VSL Support"

Now it could be said " why doesn't VSL just issue a new license number"? Easy enough? Well- how would they know if had just gave your dongle to a friend? and now you want another license?

Protect your investment -replace your dongle every 2 years ($35) - just like you change your oil on a car. Their policy is what it is - and if you don't like (which you may not) it - their are plenty of other companies who will take your cash. 

Eloy


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## thereus (Aug 27, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Below is a response from VSL on the VSL forum (lost key policy);
> 
> "We'd prefer to live in a world without product piracy. But as long this isn't the case, we all have to deal with copy protection. We're providing our customers with a safe system, it hasn't been cracked up to now and works offline as well. So, if a key get's lost, everybody who finds this key has unrestricted acces to the licenses. Free replacement licenses would harm our company, we simply can't afford such a solution. We believe, taking care of the key is nothing but self-responsibility. You won't expect any kind of warning if you put 1.000 bucks into your wallet. It's common sense that you won't get the money back if you loose it. To meet uninsured customers half way in lost key matters, we're offering 50% discount for the replacement licenses and a free 48 hours all application license as first, quick help.
> 
> ...



I can't see how replacing a dongle every two years protects you from losing it.

The fact is that VSL's policy quoted here unnecessarily puts its users at an unreasonable and expensive risk because it can't be bothered to find a better solution. Its justification; "You will all just pretend to lose the keys and then give them to your mates." is just piffle. It then blames Steinberg but refuses to consider more suitable arrangements that are commonplace elsewhere.

It doesn't want to have to think about how this might affect the users' enjoyment of the product. It is basically saying, "Suck it up or go away." Fine, I'm perfectly prepared to go away, but isn't it worth a conversation first? A change in policy or protection system might enable me to use the samples and VSL to receive my money. I am not alone in thinking this way so VSL is leaving lots of money on the table. Perhaps there are wiser heads at VSL who will engage. Perhaps not. That is up to them, indeed. If they listen and engage, perhaps a solution that suits VSL and those of us not purchasing for this reason could be created. All we can do is raise it and see if anyone is listening.

The other important thing about this issue is that it is far from up-front-and-centre in VSL's marketing information. I am pleased that it was pointed out to me before I spent large amounts of money. It makes sense to point it out to others who might not want to buy into that risk so that they are fully informed before they buy.


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## novaburst (Aug 27, 2017)

What ever the case you all should understand that if your dongle gets lost or stolen please look at it from the developers point of view


Eloy said:


> if a key get's lost, everybody who finds this key has unrestricted acces to the licenses. Free replacement licenses would harm our company, we simply can't afford such a solution.



If we are to continue to use dongles and iloks and it does seem that the industry is moving in this direction but if it is the case we fear because of stolen or lost dongles or even house break ins, fire damages, what about earth quakes they do happen.

Its not only the value of the dongle that needs protecting its the value of our whole musical rig or work station that needs protecting so it is almost inevitable that you will need to insure your gear.

So for instance you come home and find your place burgled or burnt down but you have your VSL dongle in your pocket what you going to do....... hello

it makes sense to insure all your musical gear against such disasters and there are specialist music gear insures that will do it.

I think this is called responsibility and we must all take responsibility on the things we love, there is no point in trying to push blame on any one developer through some thing you could have taken care of by your self.

If you really look at the facts VSL and other developers have been fair and correct in there policy, and have done things with in reason to help you out should you hit disaster, but to make this work you also need to do something on your side so there can be a middle ground, insure all your musical gear for the value you purchased it for if it is that important to you and stop blaming others (developers) for your own slackness over your property.

Why are you taken a different approach to this because its software, its still your property so do some thing to protect it. not only VSL software your whole musical software and rig, guitars, pianos, every thing musical so your not out of pocket when disaster strikes, and it may or may never strike.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Aug 27, 2017)

novaburst said:


> I think this is called responsibility and we must all take responsibility on the things we love, there is no point in trying to push blame on any one developer through some thing you could have taken care of by your self.


No insurance company in Australia would insure the licences on my elicenser


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## thereus (Aug 27, 2017)

novaburst said:


> What ever the case you all should understand that if your dongle gets lost or stolen please look at it from the developers point of view
> 
> 
> If we are to continue to use dongles and iloks and it does seem that the industry is moving in this direction but if it is the case we fear because of stolen or lost dongles or even house break ins, fire damages, what about earth quakes they do happen.
> ...



...precisely because it isn't property. We are buying a right to use something. If it were property, we could sell it.


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## patrick76 (Aug 27, 2017)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> No insurance company in Australia would insure the licences on my elicenser



You should start your own insurance company then and stop being a slacker. 

Personally I use vsl winds and like them so I have hired a security staff of ex kgb to watch over my dongle 24/7. It's not cheap, but I have learned many interesting things which unfortunately I cannot share here.

You may be interested to know that a few human lives have been lost protecting the dongle. I have had to take a life myself when my staff was on a restroom break, but... I've said too much.


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## AdamAlake (Aug 27, 2017)

novaburst said:


> simple read before you buy, make your own decision, don't start a campaign.
> 
> how many dongles get broken through out the years, how many get lost, or how many get stolen, or how many suddenly stop working, hardly any but when it comes to VSL suddenly oh no my dongle may get stolen or it may get lost oh my gosh VSL should change there policy, please give me a break.
> 
> ...



Hey, nobody is forcing you to talk to us, stop complaining and go somewhere else.


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## Quasar (Aug 27, 2017)

novaburst said:


> ...What becomes unlawful is this type of thread to discriminate no matter if the Developer is big or small is unlawful and criminal practice, you do it simply because you can get away with it and your not going to get slapped with a great big law suite and summons to appear in court for desecration of character.



So if I say I like Cocoa-Cola and dislike Pepsi I am "discriminating" against the PepsiCo company and committing a criminal act? LOL you are a true champion of free speech!

FWIW, until this thread I have _never_ jumped into discussions of products I don't use to criticize CP that I do not support. I have criticized companies for implementing oppressive CP policies _only_ when I've been a paying customer of that company and they subsequently change the rules, _after_ I've spent money with them. But since this thread developed, specifically, into a general critique of VSL's eLicensing policy with everyone throwing in their 2p, I thought I would do the same, and state unequivocally why I will never spend a dime with them unless they drastically change their licensing approach.

Developers do, I suppose, have the right to change their CP even at the expense of customers who supported them under the old rules, as Native Instruments is tragically doing now. But we also have every right to complain and object when they do so.


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## Michael Antrum (Aug 27, 2017)

patrick76 said:


> Personally I use vsl winds and like them so I have hired a security staff of ex kgb to watch over my dongle 24/7. It's not cheap, but I have learned many interesting things which unfortunately I cannot share here.
> 
> You may be interested to know that a few human lives have been lost protecting the dongle. I have had to take a life myself when my staff was on a restroom break, but... I've said too much.



I see that you too, have played the Grimsby & District Working Men's Club on a Friday night. But we don't speak of it anymore, the PTSD therapist said not to. 'Nuff said.


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## wst3 (Aug 27, 2017)

novaburst said:


> Big deal who cares weather you buy from VSL or not in fact who cares weather any one doe or not.



Probably no one. Last I looked this is a forum where musicians help musicians. I've often been able to take away a bit of something or other, usually just an adjustment of perspective, from other folks posts. And especially as it concerns which tools will remain useful over the long haul. There are folks out there who use these tools more than I do, or for longer than I have, and their input has some value.



novaburst said:


> griping and moaning over a developer policy is pissing stupid, who is forcing you and all the rest the bashers to buy from VSL.



Until recently I would hardly characterize this thread as "griping and moaning". Someone discovered that there was a policy in place that they felt was, at a minimum, onerous. Another person offered that it might not even be enforceable in some jurisdictions. That is certainly something I would look into, and probably others will too. I doubt any of us is going to take it to court, that's a wee bit more expensive yet. But every little bit of information can be useful.



novaburst said:


> no ones forcing me to purchase nothing and I have got the sense to read before I purchase, but I ant going to start making a thread just because I don't like a developers policy for crying out loud go some where else and get your software.



That little bit might have been more useful if it had been stated less antagonistically, and maybe with a little better spelling and grammer.

It is a really good point, and something many of us sometimes forget to take into consideration. If I hear a Guy Bacos demo track I'm going to be thinking "wow, wonder what I could do with VSL libraries!" and I'd be surprised if I am alone. I'm also naturally curious, I've got libraries from VSL, I've got a couple ensemble type libraries from various developers, I even have one loop style library.

What I've learned, over time, is that I am much more facile with individual instruments. I am slowly getting better with the ensembles. I can't grok the loops. And VSL sounds gorgeous, and the player is brilliant. And I did not properly interpret their EULA.



novaburst said:


> how ironic you are so plastic, why don't you show some back bone and stop every thing that comes from VSL including VEpro be a true solider, be a true campaigner ...........



I'm not a soldier, and I'm not trying to bring VSL down. I will limit my exposure for the time being, but why would I give up VEPro? It's a tool, it works well, it is priced fairly, and if my dongle is lost or stolen I'll replace it without hesitation because it saves me a lot of time and effort. And I am still squarely in the learning phase! What happens when I finally get it all sussed out???

But I will limit opportunities for financial challenge by limiting my use of their libraries, and not adding to the collection for now. There are lots of great alternatives. Doesn't mean I'll never use them again, just that this replacement policy is something I need to take into account. Now, while I'm not earning millions as a composer. If that changes, well, then everything changes.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 28, 2017)

Quasar said:


> This vacuously cliched argument of "no one is forcing you so don't complain" is straight-up bullshit, and the enemy of justice and human rights whenever and wherever it is deployed.
> 
> I agree most enthusiastically with this, minus the sarcasm.



I used to read this kind of nonsense when I worked for EW. Human slave trafficking, racial discrimination, etc. are human rights and justice issues, not the practices of software companies. It cheapens the whole concept, like the difference between a paper cut and a mortal wound.

If you don't like a company's practices, don't buy their products, but please, don't try to turn it into a self-righteous crusade.


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## thereus (Aug 28, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> I used to read this kin d of nonsense when I worked for EW. Human slave trafficking, racial discrimination, etc. are human rights and justice issues, not the practices of software companies. It cheapens the whole concept, like the difference between a paper cut and a mortal wound.
> 
> If you don't like a company's practices, don't buy their products, but please, don't try to turn it into a self-righteous crusade.



Human rights and a software company's arrangements for servicing its customers are indeed two different domains, but that doesn't mean that there is no validity in discussing the latter.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 28, 2017)

thereus said:


> Human rights and discussions about how a software company might arrange its service are indeed two different domains, but that doesn't mean that there is no validity in discussing the latter.



Fine, but with some perspective and sans the holy warrior aspect, please. It's f-ing software and if it all went away tomorrow, the world would not be that much the poorer for it and if it was all free tomorrow, the world would not be that much the richer for it.


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## thereus (Aug 28, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> Fine, but with some perspective and sans the holy warrior aspect, please. It's f-ing software and if it all went away tomorrow, the world would not be that much the poorer for it and if it was all free tomorrow, the world would not be that much the richer for it.



I don't see anyone disagreeing with you. We are not talking about saving the world, only about whether a particular product offers value-for-money given its vendor's contractual terms. Having said that, it does cost a lot of money, so thinking how to arrange the contracts between the buyer and the seller is a perfectly reasonable activity for a forum populated by those who might or might not buy it, even if world peace is not the result. Do you have a view related to the actual subject in hand, Jay? Do you use VSL sounds? Are your VSL keys insured? Were you aware of their policy on replacement before you purchased?


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## wst3 (Aug 28, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> If you don't like a company's practices, don't buy their products, but please, don't try to turn it into a self-righteous crusade.



I imagine you saw a lot of this sort of message, there was a period where a lot of folks were unhappy (justified or not) with EW.

That probably influences your response to such messages<G>.

However, and with respect, I don't think the underlying theme in this thread is a "self-righteous crusade", or at least I didn't read it that way. It strikes me as a member pointing out a clause in EULA for with the impact may not be immediately obvious. Most agreements these days are good about spelling out one's rights, including the right of re-sale. I don't think the remedy for a lost or stolen dongle is particularly clear in their document, although they have stated, quite clearly, their policy in other places.

I did understand the limitations, and I opted to try a small VSL library because I was curious. I have further opted to limit my use of theirl libraries because I'm not in a position to invest a second time should I run into problems.

Their customer support has never been anything less than professional and complete, and I have no complaints about that. Nor do I have any complaints about their libraries or software. I'm just not in a position to take on that risk.

Sharing that might help someone else. It might not. I certainly do not feel that VSL should change their policy for my benefit. By the same token, if this policy affects sales (which I highly doubt) then they deserve to hear the feedback.


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## kitekrazy (Aug 28, 2017)

I was never aware of their policy until I seen it on this forum. Is it in the EULA when installing products.
So if your key is stolen how would they be able to access the sounds? I don't think you can just download any library at VSL.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 28, 2017)

thereus said:


> I don't see anyone disagreeing with you. We are not talking about saving the world, only about whether a particular product offers value-for-money given its vendor's contractual terms. Having said that, it does cost a lot of money, so thinking how to arrange the contracts between the buyer and the seller is a perfectly reasonable activity for a forum populated by those who might or might not buy it, even if world peace is not the result. Do you have a view related to the actual subject in hand, Jay? Do you use VSL sounds? Are your VSL keys insured? Were you aware of their policy on replacement before you purchased?




Did you read ALL the posts? 

No, I don't use VSL sounds, but I do use VE Pro and was an early adopter. Since VSL gives you three licenses, I have 3 e-Licensers, two that I was using, one that was a spare. No insurance, although I do have Zero Downtime on my two iLoks.

The 11 the Commandment ( for all computer users) :"Cover Thy Ass."


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## Quasar (Aug 28, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> I used to read this kind of nonsense when I worked for EW. Human slave trafficking, racial discrimination, etc. are human rights and justice issues, not the practices of software companies. It cheapens the whole concept, like the difference between a paper cut and a mortal wound.
> 
> If you don't like a company's practices, don't buy their products, but please, don't try to turn it into a self-righteous crusade.



While I would not wish to imply that my personal difficulties in amassing a usable collection of VIs while avoiding fascist CP policies is in any way comparable in scale to the human rights abuses you allude to above, it is true that oppression in any form that emanates from the perverted ethos which places the interests of capital above people is all interconnected.

IOW both the "paper cut" and the "mortal wound" are manifestations, ultimately, of oppression from the same source, the same soul-sickening power relationships currently driving human social conditions across the board. Thus they should be resisted wherever they are found, regardless of whether the consequence of the abuse in any particular instance is relatively trivial (as I freely grant that it is in the issue being discussed here) or not.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 28, 2017)

Quasar said:


> While I would not wish to imply that my personal difficulties in amassing a usable collection of VIs while avoiding fascist CP policies is in any way comparable in scale to the human rights abuses you allude to above, it is true that oppression in any form that emanates from the perverted ethos which places the interests of capital above people is all interconnected.
> 
> IOW both the "paper cut" and the "mortal wound" are manifestations, ultimately, of oppression from the same source, the same soul-sickening power relationships currently driving human social conditions across the board. Thus they should be resisted wherever they are found, regardless of whether the consequence of the abuse in any particular instance is relatively trivial (as I freely grant that it is in the issue being discussed here) or not.




This is perhaps the way I used to think as a Sophomore in college, before I experienced people in my life undergoing _real_ tragedies due to _actual_ oppression and injustice rather than philosophically.


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## EgM (Aug 28, 2017)

kitekrazy said:


> I was never aware of their policy until I seen it on this forum. Is it in the EULA when installing products.
> So if your key is stolen how would they be able to access the sounds? I don't think you can just download any library at VSL.



That's correct, you don't have access to download the .dat files without logging in to MyVSL. I've always found funny that they'd care if someone else stole an eLicenser, since you can't play anything without Vienna Instruments (Only available to people with libraries) and the .dat files.

A side note on this issue, I think VSL should make it clearer to everyone that we should buy eLicensers every two years and keep the invoice, cheaper than iLok's ZDT. That way you're safe unless you lose or someone steals it.


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## Tfis (Aug 28, 2017)

Waiting for the first guy to mention "Hitler was from Austria, too..."


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## synthpunk (Aug 28, 2017)

Back in the day when I was using VEP I got some attitude and attempted brush off from their support and contacted the head of the company and everything was fine after that, ahem just sayin.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Aug 28, 2017)

Tfis said:


> Waiting for the first guy to mention "Hitler was from Austria, too..."



Oh wow, now that you say it, that explains everything. Wretched Tonmeisters!


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## Quasar (Aug 28, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> This is perhaps the way I used to think as a Sophomore in college, before I experienced people in my life undergoing _real_ tragedies due to _actual_ oppression and injustice rather than philosophically.


You can compartmentalize injustice into "real" vs. "philosophical" categories if you want to, though I can think of no good reason to to do so. But if you can't see how the institutionalization of an injustice in one sphere of public life has an impact on the perpetuation of injustice in every other sphere, that the trivial and the profound are interconnected on the same continuum, then I guess you just can't, though I am certain you are much more than intelligent enough to connect those dots should you choose...


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## Publius (Aug 28, 2017)

Interesting discussion, and I have learned a lot--I will be more careful about what I buy in the future. As has been pointed out, 'buying a library' is not in fact buying property but merely a contractual arrangement to use some software--under the agreed upon terms of the contract. I have Cubase, and I suppose I have a theft/fire risk due to my dongle which is plugged into the motherboard.

I am also learning recently that Microsoft windows is getting tied to its original installed motherboard and one does not have the right to move it to an upgraded machine, though Microsoft does help with that sometimes. This was easier to work with in the past, but there you have it.

*What puzzles me is why these vendors do not implement technology to block a given dongle if it is reported lost or stolen and issue a new one*--I think all these apps phone home all the time to ensure one's license is valid. In the same way, I don't see why Microsoft does not allow one to 'un activate' windows in anticipation of a move to a different computer. It seems like my native instruments licenses have been durable over many years and computer changes--and no dongle.


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## kitekrazy (Aug 28, 2017)

Publius said:


> Interesting discussion, and I have learned a lot--I will be more careful about what I buy in the future. As has been pointed out, 'buying a library' is not in fact buying property but merely a contractual arrangement to use some software--under the agreed upon terms of the contract. I have Cubase, and I suppose I have a theft/fire risk due to my dongle which is plugged into the motherboard.
> *
> I am also learning recently that Microsoft windows is getting tied to its original installed motherboard and one does not have the right to move it to an upgraded machine, though Microsoft does help with that sometimes. This was easier to work with in the past, but there you have it.*
> 
> *What puzzles me is why these vendors do not implement technology to block a given dongle if it is reported lost or stolen and issue a new one*--I think all these apps phone home all the time to ensure one's license is valid. In the same way, I don't see why Microsoft does not allow one to 'un activate' windows in anticipation of a move to a different computer. It seems like my native instruments licenses have been durable over many years and computer changes--and no dongle.



That's if you have an OEM license.


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## novaburst (Aug 28, 2017)

Quasar said:


> So if I say I like Cocoa-Cola and dislike Pepsi I am "discriminating" against the PepsiCo company and committing a criminal act? LOL you are a true champion of free speech!


You are if you get every one else to dislike it by giving them a bad name when they have done nothing wrong.


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## thereus (Aug 28, 2017)

Not an easy discussion to keep on track, this. I wonder why that is.


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## Publius (Aug 28, 2017)

kitekrazy said:


> That's if you have an OEM license.


 That is something I may not have sufficiently understood in the past. For instance, I can buy an 'oem' version of windows 10 pro for $130 at microcenter and a non-oem pro for $200. Perhaps transferability is the main difference between these different products. I always considered OEM to be the pre-installed windows on a new pc, but there is the OEM dvd that is not pre-assigned to a pc.


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## novaburst (Aug 28, 2017)

Quasar said:


> But we also have every right to complain and object when they do so.


Again this is wrong if no one has broken the law and in this case abided by sales and distribution law, policy, you become the law breaker by trying to give them a bad name, whilst you may get away with it hear it may not stand if this was person to person.


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## kitekrazy (Aug 28, 2017)

EgM said:


> That's correct, you don't have access to download the .dat files without logging in to MyVSL. I've always found funny that they'd care if someone else stole an eLicenser, since you can't play anything without Vienna Instruments (Only available to people with libraries) and the .dat files.
> 
> *A side note on this issue, I think VSL should make it clearer to everyone that we should buy eLicensers every two years and keep the invoice, cheaper than iLok's ZDT. That way you're safe unless you lose or someone steals it.*



How much could Steinberg should be involved in these matters? While a may have a hiccup or two with iLok, I do like the option of licensing on a drive instead of a dongle. Usually you get indications if a drive is going to fail from your OS or SMART apps. This is not the case with a dongle.
I'd also like to think a stolen dongle can get disabled once it goes online. They would be great because at some point that dongle app needs to be updated.
OT: If you want some interesting reading about dongles, you would have to look up old threads at NSS where Eric Pershing gives his views that you wouldn't always expect from a developer.

I usually make it a point to support developers who have an "I trust you" attitude for the end user. I don't have a large investment in VSL products so if the worst happens it wont be the end of the world.


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## Publius (Aug 28, 2017)

thereus said:


> Not an easy discussion to keep on track, this. I wonder why that is.


I think there is a philosophical and moral component to our thinking about software in addition to the simple facts of price and transfer policies--and once the vendor policy is fully explored, not much more to talk about alogn those lines.

I am not going to engage on that beyond offering this somewhat libertarian question: "If the license is not property but a simple contract for use, and there is no moral or legal duty from the vendor to give the purchaser property rights beyond the contract, why does it suddenly become cloaked in the raiment of property--and all of our moral and legal traditions regarding property, when it comes to piracy?" Some may suggest that piracy is not stealing property, but rather stealing potential sales revenue--something rather speculative.


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## novaburst (Aug 28, 2017)

AdamAlake said:


> Hey, nobody is forcing you to talk to us, stop complaining and go somewhere else.


Every ones has a right to express how they feel about threads and posts weather it be hot headed or cool headed,

I do what I want and I will say what I want and I will go where I want.


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## novaburst (Aug 28, 2017)

wst3 said:


> Probably no one. Last I looked this is a forum where musicians help musicians



Again its easy to use aliquant words to side track the real reason for the many post and the real reason is to get people on this forum to boycott VSL it is and will always be discrimination no matter how you put it.

There is no valid reason for much of the post accept hating on VSL you joined in of course because the majority is also hating on them and its a why not situation for many hear. 



wst3 said:


> But I will limit opportunities for financial challenge by limiting my use of their libraries, and not adding to the collection for now. There are lots of great alternatives. Doesn't mean I'll never use them again, just that this replacement policy is something I need to take into account. Now, while I'm not earning millions as a composer. If that changes, well, then everything changes.



Fair enough but why try to convince others that a developer is doing wrong and advertise that you will not be purchasing from VSL anymore, as soon as you go down that road you become a discriminator and you are helping no one but indeed given some one a bad name and no matter how you put it that's what you and the post in this thread are doing it simply becomes discrimination and thats what you become frankly speaking.

Putting it or saying it in nice sweet speech of words makes no difference to the word discriminate, killing some one indirectly or sending some one to kill a man does not get you off the hook you still are addressed as a murderer.

Just because the majority of the thread are shouting with the same voice does not make it right.

What if every one on the thread were saying VSL are great and we all agree with every thing they do would you dare challenge the thread....... I don't so


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## thereus (Aug 28, 2017)

Why are you so concerned about people discriminating against this particular company, Novaburst? Are you connected with them in some way?


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## novaburst (Aug 28, 2017)

Quasar said:


> both the "paper cut" and the "mortal wound" are manifestations, ultimately, of oppression from the same source



Again how can you call it oppression when no one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to purchase from VSL just leave it alone and purchased else where, VSL does not infringe on human rights what so ever not in the slightest manner. just go and buy else where and stop championing against a law abiding developer you have no course just leave them.


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## novaburst (Aug 28, 2017)

thereus said:


> Why are you so concerned about people discriminating against this particular company, Novaburst? Are you connected with them in some way?



I am connected only by my account and the few library's and software I have purchased from them and I think there great,


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## thereus (Aug 28, 2017)

This thread seems to have derailed. I will post the details of the email exchange I had with VSL on the subject of license replacement costs elsewhere.

The purpose, here, was to warn those who may wish to purchase from VSL that the company's policy in this area puts its customers at an excessive risk when compared to similar contracts with other companies. This is something that potential customers would be wise to investigate for themselves and consider carefully before buying.

My own decision is not to buy libraries from VSL and to use this forum to encourage it to engage with the composer community and to change the policy.

This is clearly honest / fair comment. I won't expand further on the strange turns the conversation has taken.


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## Lotias (Aug 28, 2017)

novaburst said:


> Again this is wrong if no one has broken the law and in this case abided by sales and distribution law, policy, you become the law breaker by trying to give them a bad name, whilst you may get away with it hear it may not stand if this was person to person.


Complaining about a company and spreading your complaint is _not _the same as making things up about a company to tarnish their name, which _would_ be illegal - assuming any company deemed it necessary to start legal action over it (which is highly unlikely over some random on the internet).


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## Ashermusic (Aug 28, 2017)

novaburst said:


> Again how can you call it oppression when no one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to purchase from VSL just leave it alone and purchased else where, VSL does not infringe on human rights what so ever not in the slightest manner. just go and buy else where and stop championing against a law abiding developer you have no course just leave them.



One could perhaps make the "oppression" argument if VSL was the only supplier of a product that was essential to someone's health and well being. To apply it to a company's actions when it i makes products that are not, and has _lots_ of competition is, just IMHO, deeply silly.


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## micrologus (Aug 28, 2017)

With the Bohemian Violin I can use iLok (dongle) or register directly my computer. It's easy and fast to transfer the registration from my account to my computer and vice-versa.


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## AdamAlake (Aug 28, 2017)

novaburst said:


> Every ones has a right to express how they feel about threads and posts weather it be hot headed or cool headed,
> 
> I do what I want and I will say what I want and I will go where I want.



How wonderfully hypocritical of you.


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## Michael Antrum (Aug 28, 2017)

This thread has gone kind of weird. I've never oppressed a sample library before. 

I think it's kind of like compression, but you are instead oppressing the harmonics of the audio which is different in a subtle way. Apparently it's a technique that was develop in Pyongyang. At least that's what Kim said. Can't wait for UAD's upcoming plug-in for this - it's going to be called 'Totalitarianate'.


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## novaburst (Aug 28, 2017)

Lotias said:


> Complaining about a company and spreading your complaint is _not _the same as making things up about a company to tarnish their name, which _would_ be illegal - assuming any company deemed it necessary to start legal action over it (which is highly unlikely over some random on the internet).



you are tarnishing, you are using a policy to campaign and give others a false impression and feeling that some how VSL are doing wrong therefor discouraging others from investing in the Developer.

If I had a profile of your life but there was some thing in your life I did not like I have no right to encourage others or start a hate campaign against you especially when you have done nothing wrong or you have not broken the law,

Its very easy to create a snow ball over the internet against anyone, weather its a single person being bullied because of there size, colour, gender, or statues or a big company because this happens to be a big company does not make what your doing ok, there are people who work for VSL and depend on income from VSL what if I campaigned to slow or stop your income and profits how would you feel, you are hating on VSL well actually its people you are hating on and its not right. 



Lotias said:


> to start legal action over it (which is highly unlikely over some random on the internet).



this is one of the reasons why many are so loose with there tongue because it is on the forum because they are not face to face with the person we feel we can say any old trash against them with out consequence.

This thread has done nothing but turn others away from (VSL, a team, people, humans). every one who opened there mouth has contributed to that. 

If I have an issue with anyone (Developer Policy) but that developer is found to be well with in the boundary of the law the only right I have is to personally deal with it not encourage every one I see and start to campaign against them that's wrong and becomes none other than discrimination.

If you feel VSL should not be there then fine but its wrong to encourage others to do the same.

No matter what words you use be it complaint, unfair, unclear, or what ever as soon as it discourages others against a person, group, company, developer, team, race. it becomes discrimination,

So you encourage other to use prejudicial treatment against others, or bias, favouritism, to course intolerance.

So you put your self in the same league as a discriminator or some one that practises prejudice in your life.


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## AdamAlake (Aug 28, 2017)

novaburst said:


> you are tarnishing, you are using a policy to campaign and give others a false impression and feeling that some how VSL are doing wrong therefor discouraging others from investing in the Developer.



Nobody is doing that. Most of what people have been saying in this thread was stating what the policy is, and how they feel about it. And they are in their full rights to do so. If you wish, contact VSL about this thread, and find out what they have to say about it.


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## novaburst (Aug 28, 2017)

AdamAlake said:


> How wonderfully hypocritical of you.



Can you may be just pretend im not there, your kind of making it a little to personal and I don't know how to answer you.


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## novaburst (Aug 28, 2017)

AdamAlake said:


> Nobody is doing that. Most of what people have been saying in this thread was stating what the policy is, and how they feel about it. And they are in their full rights to do so. If you wish, contact VSL about this thread, and find out what they have to say about it.



well well the cats out the bag another VSL hater.


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## Michael Antrum (Aug 28, 2017)

I'm sorry but this is an upmarket forum and we have standards. I appreciate that there are some people from the colonies here, and we do make allowances for some of our more, err, 'agricultural' colleagues. We even allow some EDM fellows here (as long as they keep the noise down, remove their nose rings and don't scare the horses), but there are some things that we have to draw the line at. 

The word 'hater' simply has no place with these hallowed virtual walls, and I'm sure we would all take it as a great favour if you could refrain from using the term again.


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## AdamAlake (Aug 28, 2017)

novaburst said:


> Can you may be just pretend im not there, your kind of making it a little to personal and I don't know how to answer you.



You could do the same, you are not forced to read my posts. And please, atleast use a spell checker, the amount of typos is not helping your arguments.



novaburst said:


> well well the cats out the bag another VSL hater.



I have not posted a single opinion about VSL, where did you get that one from?


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## novaburst (Aug 28, 2017)

AdamAlake said:


> You could do the same, you are not forced to read my posts


I suppose your right there, any way not here to clash with you, so peace out.


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## Lotias (Aug 28, 2017)

novaburst said:


> you are tarnishing, you are using a policy to campaign and give others a false impression and feeling that some how VSL are doing wrong therefor discouraging others from investing in the Developer.


It turns out that if people don't like a company policy that they sometimes make the decision to not give that company business, who knew? I personally am not bothered by the policy and own a few of their libraries, but other people have a right to voice their concerns.


novaburst said:


> If I had a profile of your life but there was some thing in your life I did not like I have no right to encourage others or start a hate campaign against you especially when you have done nothing wrong or you have not broken the law


Not even remotely comparable to anything going on in this thread.


novaburst said:


> Its very easy to create a snow ball over the internet against anyone, weather its a single person being bullied because of there size, colour, gender, or statues or a big company because this happens to be a big company does not make what your doing ok, there are people who work for VSL and depend on income from VSL what if I campaigned to slow or stop your income and profits how would you feel, you are hating on VSL well actually its people you are hating on and its not right.


Again, people can do whatever they like with their money based on their views of a company. Yes, people that work at VSL do rely on their income (which is not entirely from VSL website sales, by the way). It turns out that this makes the best way of getting your opinion heard by VSL not purchasing from them and explaining to other people why you recommend not buying from them. People can make their own informed decisions on this from there. If VSL fails and stops making money on their sample libraries as a result, that's how a (relatively) free market works - they should have adapted and adjusted their product so that people will start purchasing again.


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## novaburst (Aug 28, 2017)

Lotias said:


> It turns out that if people don't like a company policy that they sometimes make the decision to not give that company business, who knew? I personally am not bothered by the policy and own a few of their libraries, but other people have a right to voice their concerns.
> 
> Not even remotely comparable to anything going on in this thread.
> 
> Again, people can do whatever they like with their money based on their views of a company. Yes, people that work at VSL do rely on their income (which is not entirely from VSL website sales, by the way). It turns out that this makes the best way of getting your opinion heard by VSL not purchasing from them and explaining to other people why you recommend not buying from them. People can make their own informed decisions on this from there. If VSL fails and stops making money on their sample libraries as a result, that's how a (relatively) free market works - they should have adapted and adjusted their product so that people will start purchasing again.



Well I don't agree in the slightest discrimination is discrimination and I feel you need to experience it to understand it


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## Lotias (Aug 28, 2017)

novaburst said:


> Well I don't agree in the slightest discrimination is discrimination and I feel you need to experience it to understand it


Again, not remotely the same as being discriminated against for personal traits or beliefs.


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## wst3 (Aug 28, 2017)

novaburst said:


> wst said:
> 
> 
> > But I will limit opportunities for financial challenge by limiting my use of their libraries, and not adding to the collection for now. There are lots of great alternatives. Doesn't mean I'll never use them again, just that this replacement policy is something I need to take into account. Now, while I'm not earning millions as a composer. If that changes, well, then everything changes.
> ...



Please show me where I tried to convince anyone that VSL is evil, or even simply that they should not purchase libraries from them.

I shared my reaction to their policy when I finally understood exactly what it meant. I did not accuse them of hiding their policy, I did not accuse them of doing something wrong.

There may be VSL "haters" here, but I haven't seen evidence to prove it.


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## kitekrazy (Aug 28, 2017)

Lotias said:


> It turns out that if people don't like a company policy that they sometimes make the decision to not give that company business, who knew? I personally am not bothered by the policy and own a few of their libraries, but other people have a right to voice their concerns.
> 
> Not even remotely comparable to anything going on in this thread.
> 
> Again, people can do whatever they like with their money based on their views of a company. Yes, people that work at VSL do rely on their income (which is not entirely from VSL website sales, by the way). It turns out that this makes the best way of getting your opinion heard by VSL not purchasing from them and explaining to other people why you recommend not buying from them. People can make their own informed decisions on this from there. If VSL fails and stops making money on their sample libraries as a result, that's how a (relatively) free market works - they should have adapted and adjusted their product so that people will start purchasing again.



Who knows, after many rants they may make a change. Before this site existed there was a 40+ page thread at NSS where people claimed they would never buy another Waves product over their WUP policy. I think that has changed.


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## Publius (Aug 28, 2017)

*dis·crim·i·nat·ing*
(dĭ-skrĭm′ə-nā′tĭng)
_adj._
*1. * Able to recognize or draw fine distinctions or judgments: a discriminating collector of fine books.


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## Prockamanisc (Aug 28, 2017)

I'm just gonna say that I think VSL is the best library I own. It's my A library and Spitfire is my B library. I try to do things in Spitfire and it doesn't work, and VSL does it without breaking a sweat. If you're concerned about dongles, then you're missing the point.


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## Lotias (Aug 28, 2017)

Prockamanisc said:


> I'm just gonna say that I think VSL is the best library I own. It's my A library and Spitfire is my B library. I try to do things in Spitfire and it doesn't work, and VSL does it without breaking a sweat. If you're concerned about dongles, then you're missing the point.


I agree and think VSL does a lot of things I can't really do with other libraries, but I will say their concerns are valid. I see two main reasons for this - if a dongle is damaged, it's a lot of downtime to send it over to VSL and have everything fixed. If a dongle is stolen (or very unfortunately lost), it can be a major blow to finances to have to pay _up to 50%_ of the original price of the libraries you had. It isn't as big of a concern for me, since I like to believe the chances of either of those problems are very low, but for professional composers (I am only a hobbyist at the moment) they can be major concerns.


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## Prockamanisc (Aug 29, 2017)

Be gentle with the dongles and cautious of their location. Buy a new dongle every 2-3 years and swap the licenses over.


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## Lotias (Aug 29, 2017)

Prockamanisc said:


> Be gentle with the dongles and cautious of their location. Buy a new dongle every 2-3 years and swap the licenses over.


Every 2 years keeps the dongles in warranty, but that doesn't address either problem of long downtime in the event of damage or faulty dongles and high prices to pay in addition to that if the dongle was stolen or lost.


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## Prockamanisc (Aug 29, 2017)

It might just be me, but I really just don't see those as things. I'm more won over by focusing on the perks of VSL's interface and samples.


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## Lotias (Aug 29, 2017)

Prockamanisc said:


> It might just be me, but I really just don't see those as things. I'm more won over by focusing on the perks of VSL's interface and samples.


I am of the same opinion, but I can see why some people might be looking elsewhere as a result of their policy.


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## Prockamanisc (Aug 29, 2017)

I know you're trying to be sympathetic, and I appreciate that. The world needs people like you. I think that there's a lot of aggression in this thread, though, and to point it at VSL is to really miss the point. It's like saying "I'll never buy a Martin guitar because they're too expensive to replace if it's lost, stolen, or broken, and oh yeah, it's Martin's fault." If VSL has shown us anything, it's that they're completely brilliant. They think of stuff before we know we need to think about it. If that's their policy, then I trust that it's the best policy for them to have.


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## jamwerks (Aug 29, 2017)

novaburst said:


> ... I do what I want and I will say what I want and I will go where I want.


Wow, with that tone the obvious question is how old are you?

The good side of this thread is that it's a money maker for the forum ownership and thus good for us all!


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## muk (Aug 29, 2017)

Prockamanisc said:


> It's like saying "I'll never buy a Martin guitar because they're too expensive to replace if it's lost, stolen, or broken, and oh yeah, it's Martin's fault."



It's not quite as simple as that. The fact remains that VSL's policy seems contradictory:

In 2012 the highest European Court, the European Court of Justice, ruled that resale of software licenses is legal within the EU. By that ruling, any policy forbidding software resales or demanding a fee for it are unlawful.
Sample library developers try to dodge that ruling by arguing that they are not selling software, but licenses to use the recordings contained in their sample libraries. Whether this argument would uphold before court is currently unknown as far as I know, as it hasn't been tested yet before court. It is at least a grey area that developers are using.

If it comes to the lost dongle policy, however, VSL suddenly argues that not personal licenses to use their libraries are the product, but the actual hardware dongle they are stored on. A personal license is a contract between two parties, and it can not be lost or stolen. A contract keeps its validity even if one side looses the paper it was writen on. VSL however now argues that the contract becomes void if you loose the hardware dongle.
But in that case the physical piece of plastic is the deciding piece. That is clearly hardware, and hardware you are allowed to resell freely at will, and without any fees applying.

I am no lawyer, but it certainly looks like these two policies contradict each other. If they do, at least one of them would be legally void. Of course there is no knowing before an actual case takes place before court.

But saying that the developers can write whatever policy they want and the customers should simply 'vote with their wallet' doesn't quite cut it. The developers have to to stay within the rules of law with their EULA's. And at least for European law it is not quite clear whether they do right now.

What I personally dislike about the policy is that it should be possible to protect the developer from piracy and the buyer from theft both. If you think about it, it is very similar. VSL employed a dongle-system to protect themselves from piracy, and piracy is basically theft. But because of this the buyers are not protected from theft if their dongle is stolen. So in a way VSL offloads their risk on to the customers. That would not be necessary if they could simply deactivate licenses. If a dongle is stolen or lost, they could deactivate the licenses stored on it and generate new ones for the customer. The licenses on the lost/stolen dongle would then be completely useless. I can't think of a single compelling reason why that should not be possible to implement in 2017. But for whatever reason VSL choses not to, and I don't like that.


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## novaburst (Aug 29, 2017)

muk said:


> VSL however now argues that the contract becomes void if you loose the hardware dongle.



That is easy to understand because it can be used free of charge by a person or persons who find it.
or if it is stolen it can be used for free.



muk said:


> But in that case the physical piece of plastic is the deciding piece. That is clearly hardware, and hardware you are allowed to resell freely at will, and without any fees applying.



Its whats contained in the hardware that counts not just a simple piece of plastic is it now.



muk said:


> In 2012 the highest European Court, the European Court of Justice, ruled that resale of software licenses is legal within the EU. By that ruling, any policy forbidding software resale's or demanding a fee for it are unlawful.



so go sell it your VSL software no one is stopping you, but if you need the developer to assist and involve document work it is clearly legal to charge a fee. that is how VSL is set up perfect and well with in the boundary of the law.



muk said:


> It's not quite as simple as that. The fact remains that VSL's policy is contradictory:



what your saying is that a huge Developer like VSL has no lawyers and consultancy hired or working for them and they just go around doing unlawful things practices running the risk of lawful intervention from outside forces.
absolutely no its quite clear they have a huge legal team and seeing your argument there team is way more advanced than you, it is quite inconceivable for VSL to do any think without legal advise and legal consultancy.



muk said:


> The developers have to to stay within the rules of law with their EULA's. And at least for European law it is not quite clear that they do right now.



I notice that your using plural, why is it do you believe software developers are dodgy people why do you believe they are trying to dodge the law, who shall we believe shall we believe in you who has not got any idea weather its clear or not that some one is breaking the law or the Developer who needs to abide by the law or risk a huge financial cost or pay-out and possible closure of their company, these Developers have greater risk than you and me they need to abide by the law so please give them a break and stop trying to shed doubt on them thinking that you will win respect from all, your a lawyer and you use your status to try your very best to shed doubt on developers you don't even know how crazy is that....... are you ok with that, you don't know there lawyers you haven't seen there legal team, you don't know how huge their legal team is, but yet you still try your best in favour of the many negative post against VSL you try your best to shed doubt on those you don't know......if I needed a lawyer I will certainly stay far away from you the first thing I will look for in a lawyer is uprightness, the second thing I will look for is one who does not slander or defame with out a course. 



muk said:


> But saying that the developers can write whatever policy they want and the customers should simply 'vote with their wallet' doesn't quite cut it. The developers have to to stay within the rules of law with their EULA's. And at least for European law it is not quite clear that they do right now.



I vote with my wallet because VSL has great library's and I agree with there policy you don't need to or you are not being forced to so purchase else where



muk said:


> Sample library developers try to dodge that ruling by arguing that they are not selling software, but licenses to use the recordings contained in their sample libraries. Whether this argument would uphold before court is currently unknown as far as I know,



Having a license for usage of a product is perfectly legal and is the way forward for software basically its saying if you don't have the license you don't own it, if you own it then use your license to operate it if some one else has stole your license they are getting free usage of a product you purchased hence please take care of your license.


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## muk (Aug 29, 2017)

@novaburst, you clearly have no idea what you are writing about. Nor do you have an even remotely correct understanding of what I have written above.

I have no intention do diss VSL, quite the opposite. I use their libraries regularly, and I am happy with them. I produced three of the demos on their sites, I wrote a long tutorial explaining a possible setup for their Dimension Strings. I don't like one policy in their EULA. Get over it.
And now if you could please stop trolling this thread. It probably would have died off long ago as all the relevant information has been out by page 8 or so.


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## novaburst (Aug 29, 2017)

muk said:


> and I am happy with them. I produced three of the demos on their sites, I wrote a long tutorial explaining a possible setup for their Dimension Strings.



I think this is the most constructive thing I have heard hear very pleasing


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## Gzu (Aug 29, 2017)

I hope for those who saying VSL have a fair policy about the 50%, don't lost or get their dongles broken, because if that happens...

We talk later when that happens.

When everything is great we are all friends and we all drink beer together, but when things go wrong... well


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## EgM (Aug 29, 2017)

novaburst said:


> That is easy to understand because it can be used free of charge by a person or persons who find it.
> or if it is stolen it can be used for free.



Explain to me how they would download the library .dat files, Vienna Instruments sampler, Directory manager, etc? They need a VSL account with registered products within.

I love VSL, but it's pretty paranoid on their part if they actually think someone could do anything with just a dongle.


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## novaburst (Aug 29, 2017)

EgM said:


> love VSL, but it's pretty paranoid on their part if they actually think someone could do anything with just a dongle.


The was some thing I just assumed any one could do I just herd that here many times


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## Lotias (Aug 29, 2017)

novaburst said:


> The was some thing I just assumed any one could do I just herd that here many times


They would have to steal the hard drive containing the software (or at least the installers), as well as the samples, to do much of anything.


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## kitekrazy (Aug 29, 2017)

EgM said:


> Explain to me how they would download the library .dat files, Vienna Instruments sampler, Directory manager, etc? They need a VSL account with registered products within.
> 
> I love VSL, but it's pretty paranoid on their part if they actually think someone could do anything with just a dongle.



Maybe the person who stole it had theirs stolen and has hopes they have the same libraries.


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## novaburst (Aug 29, 2017)

Well it still does not do away with the fact that we must respect Developers wishes and policy's. 

If not then use another developer, unless you are saying nothing else will do and you can't live without VSL products. 

So move on and accept the Developers wishes and of course this does not only go for VSL it goes for all Developers.

Everyone can make there own minds what developer to use and does not need to be discouraged through scaremonger tactics.

Live and let live


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## Publius (Aug 30, 2017)

There's been a spate of orchestral library thefts in my neighborhood. The thieves ignore the cash, jewelry and electronics and go straight for the cello samples...


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## Dear Villain (Aug 30, 2017)

Actually, my library was stolen, but the joke was on the thief. He went to all that trouble to break in and steal my usb key, travel back to his isolated house in the mountains, load up a project in his template, only to discover I had only purchased the standard libraries, and he wouldn't be able to access progressive vibrato for the strings. Furious, he returned the usb key to me and told me he'd be back after I upgrade to the extended articulations library. So, now I make sure not to trim my cat's nails, so she can protect my investment from future break ins.


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## stigc56 (Aug 30, 2017)

Quasar said:


> While I would not wish to imply that my personal difficulties in amassing a usable collection of VIs while avoiding fascist CP policies is in any way comparable in scale to the human rights abuses you allude to above, it is true that oppression in any form that emanates from the perverted ethos which places the interests of capital above people is all interconnected.
> 
> IOW both the "paper cut" and the "mortal wound" are manifestations, ultimately, of oppression from the same source, the same soul-sickening power relationships currently driving human social conditions across the board. Thus they should be resisted wherever they are found, regardless of whether the consequence of the abuse in any particular instance is relatively trivial (as I freely grant that it is in the issue being discussed here) or not.


I think VSL is trying to project their business. If it was mine I would do the same, how can you call that oppression?


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## Publius (Aug 30, 2017)

Dear Villain said:


> Actually, my library was stolen, but the joke was on the thief. He went to all that trouble to break in and steal my usb key, travel back to his isolated house in the mountains, load up a project in his template, only to discover I had only purchased the standard libraries, and he wouldn't be able to access progressive vibrato for the strings. Furious, he returned the usb key to me and told me he'd be back after I upgrade to the extended articulations library. So, now I make sure not to trim my cat's nails, so she can protect my investment from future break ins.


 I hate when that happens.... A police officer told me they suspect its orchestrators working in meth labs.

So, I am not familiar with the culture here, but is it a good time for a moderator to put this thread out of its misery--or maybe move it to one of the non-music discussion forums--or wherever its appropriate to flog the proverbial deceased equine... As has been eloquently pointed out, the word 'hater' has despoiled these hallowed deliberations, and I think Hitler's name came up at some point as well. 

As I think about it, I recall one forum which had a policy that when a thread evolved into mac versus pc, the thread was immediately locked--I was amused to see things had gotten to that point. And, over at macrumors, they have a similar rule when a thread becomes the millionth rehash of the morality and legality of building a 'hackintosh'. A moderator at macrumors told me that their biggest trouble area is the iPhone forums where flame wars frequently break out leading to mass deletion of posts and suspension of users. Some topics tend to inspire the passions...


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## thereus (Aug 30, 2017)

stigc56 said:


> I think VSL is trying to project their business. If it was mine I would do the same, how can you call that oppression?



How far are they intending to project it?


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## The Darris (Aug 30, 2017)

Pretty much me taking in the discussion in this thread. The sip started around page 9.


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## stigc56 (Aug 30, 2017)

thereus said:


> How far are they intending to project it?


Sorry, I meant protect it.


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## Quasar (Aug 30, 2017)

stigc56 said:


> I think VSL is trying to project their business. If it was mine I would do the same, how can you call that oppression?


I could answer this question, but a proper response would belong in the off topic political section, as you can't authentically discuss anything involving commerce without evoking the general sociopolitical framework in which a particular instance exists, so I'm inclined to just give it a rest.

This thread is specifically about VSL and their policy regarding lost/stolen dongles. Some think the policy is fine, and others do not. Since I don't use dongles under any circumstances, VSL's policy regarding them doesn't directly concern me, so I probably should have refrained from commenting at all.


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## Michael Antrum (Aug 30, 2017)

Quasar said:


> I could answer this question, but a proper response would belong in the off topic political section, as you can't authentically discuss anything involving commerce without evoking the general sociopolitical framework in which a particular instance exists, so I'm inclined to just give it a rest.



Yeah, that's what I was thinking too....



Quasar said:


> ....I don't use dongles under any circumstances.....



You don't use dongles - baby you haven't lived !!!! To paraphrase George Bernard Shaw - you should try everything in life at least once - except Morris dancing.

(Mind you - he was a bit of an odd bod....)


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## Quasar (Aug 30, 2017)

mikeybabes said:


> Yeah, that's what I was thinking too....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



_The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place._
-George Bernard Shaw


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