# Ew forum wtf?



## IvanP (Jul 2, 2012)

Some foocked stuff going on here, isn't it?

Asked in the EW forum if Nick of Thomas were involved in the production of the new WW library (crucial element if I'm ever considering getting this library) and got deleted. 

Wow. 

There goes my answer, I guess...still, censorship and not having the guts to answer to a simple question is not a good business, people...we're not stupid customers, are we? 

What on earth is going on with EW's old customer's service behaviour anyway?


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## lux (Jul 2, 2012)

Have you checked if the mods there were Italian?


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## mark812 (Jul 2, 2012)

lux @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> Have you checked if the mods there were Italian?



Hahahah :lol: 

How surprising..that forum has always been such a friendly and democratic place..not.


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## IvanP (Jul 2, 2012)

lux @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> Have you checked if the mods there were Italian?



HAHAHAHAHA

4-0...I would understand that. 8)


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## jamwerks (Jul 2, 2012)

lux @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> Have you checked if the mods there were Italian?



:mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## Hannes_F (Jul 2, 2012)

Guys,

IF (speculation here) Nick and/or Thomas did actually part with EW, THEN they certainly are bound by having signed a non-disclosure-agreement that forbids releasing any news or details on their own. What else would you expect?

And then the fact that your question was deleted (instead of e.g. ignored) seems to be an answer in itself.


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## IvanP (Jul 2, 2012)

Thks, Hannes, 

I wasn't aware that Nick and Thomas aren't working for EW anymore. 

Still, I would like to know for sure if they were involved in the production of this library prior to their own, personal, issue, considering that a library such as this one requires quite some pre-work to do. 

If their recording techniques, scores and sampling concept are used, should they be credited if they aren't working anymore at the time of the release of the library? I'm not the one having to answer that and, of course, I guess they're bound to NDA's. 

Still, it's perfectly legit to ask who's behind the concept of the library, not just the Mixing artist or the guy bringing in dough...(Doug...pun intented).


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## Daryl (Jul 2, 2012)

Hannes_F @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> Guys,
> 
> IF (speculation here) Nick and/or Thomas did actually part with EW, THEN they certainly are bound by having signed a non-disclosure-agreement that forbids releasing any news or details on their own. What else would you expect?
> 
> And then the fact that your question was deleted (instead of e.g. ignored) seems to be an answer in itself.


However, there is still no reason not to answer the question. After all if they are not in the credits, then they didn't work on it. Unless it is so bad that they asked to be removed. Either scenario is possible. :wink: 

D


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## Niah (Jul 2, 2012)

lux @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> Have you checked if the mods there were Italian?



or from Portugal?

:lol:


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## RobertPeetersPiano (Jul 2, 2012)

They deleted some posts of me too, and sent me personal messages that if I continued posting things like that, they would delete my account..

I was then referring to the lack of proper support, in their own support section.

I think they just delete whatever they don't like. 

BUT, that's the reason (and the fact that you can talk about other libraries too) that this forum is better than EW-forum


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## Inductance (Jul 2, 2012)

IvanP @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> ...still, censorship and not having the guts to answer to a simple question is not a good business, people...we're not stupid customers, are we?



IMO, I don't think we're really entitled to an answer. I know that here at my "day job" we certainly don't provide our customers with day-to-day updates on who's working for us and on what.

I think they'll provide an explanation when they're ready. And if they don't, then we'll all judge them based on their product anyway...


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## IvanP (Jul 2, 2012)

Inductance @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> IvanP @ Mon Jul 02 said:
> 
> 
> > ...still, censorship and not having the guts to answer to a simple question is not a good business, people...we're not stupid customers, are we?
> ...



Then, I guess one should buy a brand only by its name, not by it's technology or the people behind. 

It's not a day to day update...it's just main, legit customer info. 
I was just asking if the "Hollywood" concept is done by the same people who did the other. 

An easier example. A director is making Batman 4. He is announcing that he is hiring RC studios and the same Mixer as in the previous films and that he needs your money to fund the soundtrack. No mention of Mr. Zimmer. Honestly...wouldn't you ask? 
What would be your reaction if your question would be deleted? 

Hmmm... Why so serious?


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## playz123 (Jul 2, 2012)

Ivan, I know many people have been wondering the same thing, but we also have to realize that EW has every right to announce only what they want when they want...like most other companies. Even if we are only curious, it doesn't mean they have to answer every question we post. It seems obvious to me that Nick and Thomas are NOT part of HOW, and probably no longer associated with EW. There may even be legal reasons why that information simply can't be released. Anyway, my suggestion is to simply assume that the answer to your question is no. And don't feel upset that your post was deleted. It happens there all the time, and when one reads the agreement one accepts when one signs on the forum, you'll note that they will carefully manage what is allowed on their site and what isn't. It seems to me that it's quite likely your inquiry will not be answered officially until one or all of the parties involved decide to do so.


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## Inductance (Jul 2, 2012)

IvanP @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> An easier example. A director is making Batman 4. He is announcing that he is hiring RC studios and the same Mixer as in the previous films and that he needs your money to fund the soundtrack. No mention of Mr. Zimmer. Honestly...wouldn't you ask? What would be your reaction if your question would be deleted?
> 
> Hmmm... Why so serious?



Haha... Hmm...

I don't think that's an apt example. For one, we're not investors in EW. We are end-users/customers. As such, we really "don't care" if EW makes money or not. All we "care" about is that the product we buy from them works. To go back to your example, it would be comparable to the viewing audience of Batman 4. Do they care if Hans composed the music? You or I might, but even when it comes to us music-oriented people, we still only "care" if we enjoy the movie or not, and not who worked on it.

As a customer of EW, I do hope they give us some details, since those two guys seemed to play important roles in the development of EW products. But the bottom line is that if EW continues to make products I like, it probably won't matter in the long run if they release a statement or not. But I hope they do...! :mrgreen:


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## PMortise (Jul 2, 2012)

IvanP @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> Inductance @ Mon Jul 02 said:
> 
> 
> > IvanP @ Mon Jul 02 said:
> ...



My reaction would be "I guess they're not ready to address that one yet." Whatever I need to know will eventually be answered in time, and I don't see the point in worrying about a product too much until it's actually released and I can hear it. It comes off as hypocritical to ask "EW Forum WTF?" _and_ "Why so serious?"


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## IvanP (Jul 2, 2012)

Frank, I'm sure that you have a point and I have no intention to use this forum for trolling in any way (never done so in any of the main forums and people who has known me all these years know how I am). 

I've also seen this kind of behavior before and "angry" customer ranting for censorship.

Still, manners do not justify actions. 

Should we accept censorship and lack of info on a product because it's for the "best commercial outcome" of a product company? Oh, poor little fellows, so afraid of a simple question, meant to be answered by a straight response. Yes or No.

I agree a company doesn't have to explain the reasons behind their personal issues and, honestly, I don't really care. But, by deciding not to answer, they are making things worse and creating "bad hype". But it's actually them, not us, who are creating it. 

Secrecy and censorship for being unable to specify with a straight answer (Yes / No. Details will / will not follow) is a bad business move, guys!

I have bought almost every Nick produced library and all of the Hollywood series. And I'm not the only one having bought it because of the minds behind it. My question was not meant to be harmful in any way. If they expect people to buy a library only because it's called "Hollywood", I guess they are quite foolish. 

If they expect people to buy based on the other two editions, well, they do have some marketing already set up. And that marketing is attached to Nick and Thomas' previous work as well, so there is obviously some expectation. 

BUT, making an announcement with a "I think I'll skip a few names" trick and not being ready to give a simple, straight explanation (seriously, people will ask) is plain...nonsense.

Again, quality of the release will determine if the product is good enough. 

But, meanwhile, taking people for fools...come on!


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## KEnK (Jul 2, 2012)

playz123 @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> ...don't feel upset that your post was deleted. It happens there all the time, and when one reads the agreement one accepts when one signs on the forum, you'll note that they will carefully manage what is allowed on their site and what isn't.


I don't consider it an open forum, and I'm always careful about what I say there
Still, deleting posts is not good for business.
It's bitten them before.

Also the H series costs enough for customers to have a right to know
if their fav engineers are involved or not.

Tom & Nick have their own fan base in the sampled realm.
It's only natural that people would want to know what's going on.

k


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## IvanP (Jul 2, 2012)

PMortise @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> It comes off as hypocritical to ask "EW Forum WTF?" _and_ "Why so serious?"



hypocritical?

Sorry guys, I missed that day in school where you guys were told that being informed and asking questions before giving your money away was Bad Karma. 

Enough of this, going back to work. o=? 

Feel free to give away your money without asking, it's a free world, isn't it?

Peace

:mrgreen:


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## handz (Jul 2, 2012)

If they deleted you just because you were asking if Nick and Thomas are involved making this - there is no excuse forthem, really stupid. Latest EW QL orchestral libs from hollywood line were their works and it was assurance of good product, if the new lib is done by different ppl I want to know. They could say - "this will be announced" but if they delete such question - it stinks a lot.


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## synergy543 (Jul 2, 2012)

IvanP @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> Then, I guess one should buy a brand only by its name, not by it's technology or the people behind.


Yes, but EW are the ones that chose to sell the products based on the fact they are created by famous people. They are the ones who are waving the banner of Hollywood credits. 
So to suddenly expect people to look upon the "product" like a bar of soap from P&G seems somewhat unreasonable given the Hollywood credits and star creator focus they have used up until now for selling the products.

What I wonder is who would make demos for EW after the fiasco which I understood Nick to be upset about as EW was denying demo creators the rights to use the NFR demo for commercial purposes without "asking for permission". Seems all rather silly to me. Time go get out of the PLAYbox and either release PLAY PRO and/or go back to Kontakt. And really they should make up and bring Nick and TJ back on board as they were such an integral part of the EW 'products'. Maybe if enough users request?

I wonder how much influence we'd have if we all asked en mass at once? (oh but I forgot composers can't organize amongst themselves....silly me.)


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## germancomponist (Jul 2, 2012)

I wouldn't care about it, Ivan. 

They have for sure a reason for deleting your post. 

Maybe there is some trouble between some people there and for now they cannot tell anything detailed...., or whatever..... .

I remember, long time ago, when they deleted a post I wrote, and 2 or 3 days later I had a nice small and friendly talk here at VI with Doug.


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## kgdrum (Jul 2, 2012)

It's been the model for a very bad company sponsored forum for a very long time.
Censoring and deleting posts etc....& if you don't preach the party line or wave the EW pom poms,it's not a friendly informative place.

Reminds me of NS

IMO the forum has become almost comical,for a while I actually went there for entertainment, it was like going to a bizzare alternate reality. 
I stopped going there after they switched to Play and I've never bought any of their newer products that run on Play.

I used to use a lot of EW products but with the switch to Play and the change in attitude I have felt from the company and forum,I stopped even considering their product line entirely, which makes me sad because I loved the original products & some of the people. I used to deal with a couple of very cool people @EW, like Ryse(best tech support guy ever!) & Jennifer both a credit to EW.
But the companies newer direction,left me cold.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 2, 2012)

Deleting posts is just a rude way of saying 'I'm not going to answer your question, and you'd better not bring the subject up again lest you get banned from my kingdom :

*SILENCE!!*

The alternative would be a pleasant response, of which there are many possible examples-"Sorry, we don't discuss EW personnel on this forum, please keep discussions product specific-thanks!" as one example. 

Another possibility would be to simply ignore questions you don't, as a company, wish to address at that time.

Deletion and banning are the high-handed methods of arrogant companies or heads of companies who lack basic good sense in matters of civility with customers. As an owner of many fine EW products, I gave up on their forum long ago as I realized from the early Play debacles that things would be fixed in their own sweet time and that no helpful information or mea culpas would ever be forthcoming until there was some sort of fix or at least a kludge.

For Nick, I hope he goes on to compose fulltime if that's his wish. For me, I hope he stays at least a part time developer, because surly bastid that he can be, he's changed the game practically single-handedly and is the best I've seen, over time.


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## synergy543 (Jul 2, 2012)

kgdrum @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> Censoring and deleting posts etc....& if you don't preach the party line or wave the EW pom poms,it's not a friendly informative place.
> 
> Reminds me of NS


Which is so odd, because as I recall, when EW left NS, years and years of sample history was suddenly deleted. Sure some of it was contentious, but there was lots of good and useful information that suddenly disappeared too. The baby went down with the bath water. And I think this ultimately had a tremendously negative impact on NS too.

I think even the strongest of competitors would like to see EW succeed. So any apparent weakness is of concern in such a small industry.


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## wcreed51 (Jul 2, 2012)

Almost everyone got banned from NS, which is why there's nothing left there but an empty shell.

It's for sale...


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## zArt (Jul 2, 2012)

Niah @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> or from Portugal?
> 
> :lol:



Offtopic:
Oh c'mon that one was uncalled for!!! 
We were eliminated because of two missed penalty kicks and after all
Spain deserved going to the final.
No grudges here! 

Ontopic:
I also had some posts deleted before with no explaination whatsoever and
their technical support is lacking.


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## kgdrum (Jul 2, 2012)

It's also pretty weird that they state on the site,General Discussions : NO Support Posts!
They want to pretend users never have issues,problems etc......

The attitude is so swarmy there.

I really got turned off when they had a promotion for EWQLSO Play & they were giving new buyers better deals than previous loyal clients who wanted to upgrade.
Later after seeing all of the issues users had with Play I started to feel the stated minimum requirements were misleading as almost every time someone had an issue with Play the stock answer was get a new Computer! lol even though a users system exceeded the stated requirements.
Rarely have I ever seen EW admit or take responsibility to any issues with Play.

I understand they didn't want to pay for the NI licensing etc...but I can't imagine how many users they lost due to the move to Play and away from Kontakt.
The old libraries worked & still work in Kontakt.


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## wcreed51 (Jul 2, 2012)

It wasn't an issue of licensing, but of preventing piracy. Same reason they moved away from GigaStudio.


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## RiffWraith (Jul 2, 2012)

kgdrum @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> It's also pretty weird that they state on the site,General Discussions : NO Support Posts!
> They want to pretend users never have issues,problems etc......



That would only be true if there was no sub-forum called 

*Support* 
Technical issues, installation, operation, bug reports and solutions

But there is such a sub-forum.



wcreed51 @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> It wasn't an issue of licensing, but of preventing piracy. Same reason they moved away from GigaStudio.



Actually, the dicision to go with NI was not because of piracy (were they ever actually _with_ GS? I don't think so....) The decision was made because of the rts. Doug and Nick went to GS and they were told, "nope, can't be done". They then went to NI, who said, "sure - we can do that".

And the NI/EW relationship was born.

Cheers.


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## kgdrum (Jul 2, 2012)

RiffWraith @ Mon 02 Jul said:


> kgdrum @ Tue Jul 03 said:
> 
> 
> > It's also pretty weird that they state on the site,General Discussions : NO Support Posts!
> ...



I missed that they have a support section my bad ,good to know.


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## knightacs (Jul 2, 2012)

playz123 @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> Ivan, I know many people have been wondering the same thing, but we also have to realize that EW has every right to announce only what they want when they want...like most other companies. Even if we are only curious, it doesn't mean they have to answer every question we post. It seems obvious to me that Nick and Thomas are NOT part of HOW, and probably no longer associated with EW. There may even be legal reasons why that information simply can't be released. Anyway, my suggestion is to simply assume that the answer to your question is no. And don't feel upset that your post was deleted. It happens there all the time, and when one reads the agreement one accepts when one signs on the forum, you'll note that they will carefully manage what is allowed on their site and what isn't. It seems to me that it's quite likely your inquiry will not be answered officially until one or all of the parties involved decide to do so.



Wait...Nick and Thomas are NOT part of HOW? Since when? I remember a post by Thomas that I read a while back talking about how they where doing the recordings.

Did I miss something somewhere? I know there was that beta tester license thing that Nick and Doug didn't see eye to eye about but I never heard anything about them leaving East West... Now I'm all worried, I already put my pre-order in. :shock:


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## choc0thrax (Jul 2, 2012)

knightacs @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> Now I'm all worried, I already put my pre-order in. :shock:



Are there demos yet or did you preorder a library you've never heard? ~o)


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## jleckie (Jul 2, 2012)

It's like buying a car without having driven it.


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## knightacs (Jul 2, 2012)

choc0thrax @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> knightacs @ Mon Jul 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Now I'm all worried, I already put my pre-order in. :shock:
> ...



Or did I pre-order a library that I thought had the same people that made EWQLSO, Hollywood Strings and Hollywood Brass? I don't trust demos most of the time anyway. Get the best demo composers out there to write something for a violin library recorded in a bathroom with only one dynamic and they will probably find a way to make it sound awesome. :D


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## Benji (Jul 2, 2012)

Hi IvanP,

I noticed your comment before it disapeared 
I'm curious to know that too, but when it disapeared I just admit that they didn't have the time to make the final HOW wallpaper on the product page, so your question would have made a lot of noise for nothing.

I hope that my theory is right, so that Nick and TJ are involved.

PS: not saying that your comment was stupid, I noticed this omission too before you wrote your comment.


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## williemyers (Jul 2, 2012)

choc0thrax @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> ...did you preorder a library you've never heard? ~o)


yeah I was kinda wondering about that myself, actually? 
I mean, on their page, under the "Overview", there's a load of text talking about the library, then you're able to click the following choices:
Demos: "Coming Soon"
Videos: "Coming Soon"
Manual: "Coming Soon"
Then there is some data on the Articualations/Specs pgs., then
Reviews: "Coming Soon"
and finally the purchase option....

But what struck me weird was that, on the payment options, there's no place to click on, "O.K. EastWest, you can go ahead and send me HWW as soon as you've got it. And as for your payment?....."Coming Soon" :wink: :wink:


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## choc0thrax (Jul 2, 2012)

knightacs @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> choc0thrax @ Mon Jul 02 said:
> 
> 
> > knightacs @ Mon Jul 02 said:
> ...



Maybe if Thomas were doing all the demos himself it would be deceptive but they generally have a good number of official demo guys who can't pull off what you describe. And now it seems like Thomas may be doing zero demos.


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## knightacs (Jul 2, 2012)

choc0thrax @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> And now it seems like Thomas may be doing zero demos.



This is what I'm asking. Why not? Does anyone actually have a reason for thinking Nick and Thomas have nothing to do with this?


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## tripit (Jul 2, 2012)

The EW forum has always been managed in a very despotic manner. It's always been one of the negative aspects of dealing with them.


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## midphase (Jul 2, 2012)

I really don't get this pre-order business. Do people pre-order shoes, or televisions, or dining room tables, or new tires?

WTF's wrong with you people? Money really burning a hole in your pocket that quickly?


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## RiffWraith (Jul 2, 2012)

midphase @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> I really don't get this pre-order business. Do people pre-order shoes, or televisions, or dining room tables, or new tires?



I pre-order deli meats. 

o[]) 

Oh, and popcorn.

o[])


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## jleckie (Jul 2, 2012)

I preorder Vodka- coz I always know I'll run out.


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## knightacs (Jul 2, 2012)

midphase @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> I really don't get this pre-order business. Do people pre-order shoes, or televisions, or dining room tables, or new tires?
> 
> WTF's wrong with you people? Money really burning a hole in your pocket that quickly?



Yes, that is why people pre-order. Discounts and showing support to developers has nothing to do with it. Avoiding delays by being in the first batch of shipments also has nothing to do with it. But honestly, why do you care? No one said you need to pre-order anything.  

And given the option, yes, some people would pre-order shoes, TVs or dining room tables, just like they do with other software, movies, video games, and I'm sure tons of other things, usually because of incentives added for those who do pre-order.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 2, 2012)

I pre-ordered the new Arturia analog mono synth (MiniBrute) 7 months ago. Why? 'Cause I want it... NOW!! =o


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## NYC Composer (Jul 2, 2012)

jleckie @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> I preorder Vodka- coz I always know I'll run out.




:::fervently blesses this year's potato crop:::


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## midphase (Jul 2, 2012)

knightacs @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> But honestly, why do you care? No one said you need to pre-order anything.



I just love to point out people's stupidity.


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## paulcole (Jul 3, 2012)

There's no such thing as a discount. It's a mirage.

EW have made a habit (and presumably money) from discounting, then everyone pays full whack, then they discount again, usually after everyone has paid full whack. And round and round it goes.

I don't actually agree with discounting. Why? Because it makes people uncomfortable about buying and then it makes them disappointed if they paid full whack. They should just charge what the price should be from day one and then maybe 'lower' the price 5 years down the road or something like that. Discounting devalues a company in so many ways, but usually in the end, a negative way from the customers pov. It almost signals desperation on the part of the seller. 

Disclaimer: I don't own ANY EW products.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 3, 2012)

paulcole @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> There's no such thing as a discount. It's a mirage.
> 
> EW have made a habit (and presumably money) from discounting, then everyone pays full whack, then they discount again, usually after everyone has paid full whack. And round and round it goes.
> 
> ...



I can't really agree. I like to buy things on sale. It's the rare product these days I HAVE to have, and with money tighter and fees smaller, any money saved is a Good Thing. EW in particular has enticed me many times in the past through deep discounting. It doesn't look desperate to me-it looks like shrewd marketing. There is STILL a market for EWQLSO and I definitely believe it's still selling-but not for $3500, obviously-so they take what they can get. Why not? The work's long since been done, it's all gravy now.

Though many are helpful, there's no single product I HAVE to own to make good music. Sometimes it pays to wait a bit.


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## Daryl (Jul 3, 2012)

midphase @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> I really don't get this pre-order business. Do people pre-order shoes, or televisions, or dining room tables, or new tires?
> 
> WTF's wrong with you people? Money really burning a hole in your pocket that quickly?


Mostly I would agree with you, when it comes to software. However, I must admit that I did pre-order Voxos (big mistake) and Sample Modeling French Horn (best decision I ever made).

Having said that I think Sample Modeling is the only company that I would pre-order with, mainly because i want to support the company because they have such great instruments. Companies that have a history or huge delays or cr*ppy 1.0 releases don't get a look-in with me anyway. :wink: 

FWIW people do pre- order things in the real world, such as houses or cars, but I guess one would assume that they would have to work properly, whereas software almost never does. 

D


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jul 3, 2012)

There are various factors which influence a pre-order decision.

For example, VSL - I have come to expect a lot from them (because they have delivered very high quality in all these years so many times over).

So, when they release a product and if the demos sound right with the videos and all, I will go ahead and pre-order if its something I want.

However, I wont do so with EW - simply because of all the drama and problems surrounding it. Every other thread is about EW and its policies. 

Lots of melodrama happening with EW all the time. I only own SD2 and it was a year and a half till a suitable update made it work on my machine. I most certainly dont want to keep doing work arounds while composing or wait for an update. EW has earned a bad reputation unfortunately. 

There is a reason you will never see these problems with VSL. They dont make movie trailers to promote their upcoming products and make blockbuster movie posters. They iron out the issues before release. There is no crappy unstable release 1.0 - People on this very forum have lowered their expectations to a level where they think a 1.0 release will naturally have lots of bugs. 

I would say why? Why should we expect that a software should be buggy upon release - because its a lot of work? What kind of an explanation is that?

With VSL, in most cases, the beta itself is reasonably stable. I cant think of the last time any VSL product not working or crashing. They are a standard. They never make an announcement unless they are sure the product works. 

And I agree with Daryl here - I would want to support companies like Samplemodeling because they are truly doing something next-generation. The brass sounds fantastic and I am really looking forward to the woodwinds.

And I dont understand why EW never focuses on software development etc. They are always highlighting other things like Shawn Murphy or Thomas Bergersen. Shawn Murphy is a legend but he is only responsible for the sound recording (which is very important no doubt). But you need hard core software programmers who will make the damn thing work in our DAW's. You need a concept and a team who will execute it.

Play Pro was announced three years ago. VSL, has surpassed even Kontakt in many areas for me. Their software is perhaps the most progressive and rock solid in the industry. These guys are amazing. In the last 5 years they have moved from Vienna Instruments Player to VI PRO and now the amazing VI PRO 2. 

Now, thats a company I will have no hesitation in placing a pre-order with.

Lots of other good companies who make nice products and I buy from them quite often.

Its simple. I place an order - download it and it just works!

Tanuj.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 3, 2012)

In regards to SampleModeling, I don't much think about it- I buy whatever they make (except for the soprano). Waiting avidly for the clarinet. That said, sometimes I wish they'd expand their articulations.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 3, 2012)

Tanuj, we have a saying in the US, "don't throw the bay out with the bathwater". IMHO, that is what you are doing with EW, but it is your right of course.


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## kgdrum (Jul 3, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue 03 Jul said:


> Tanuj, we have a saying in the US, "don't throw the bay out with the bathwater". IMHO, that is what you are doing with EW, but it is your right of course.


j


It's also a good idea to avoid drinking the bathwater,nasty stuff.....


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## paulcole (Jul 3, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> I can't really agree. I like to buy things on sale. It's the rare product these days I HAVE to have, and with money tighter and fees smaller, any money saved is a Good Thing.



Don't get me wrong Larry. I just bought a couple things that are so-called discounted. Vintage Organs and Heavyocity Damage. Money is definitely tighter these days I agree. But the whole discount regime looks as if it's planned from the start, especially with EW. It's not really a discount unless you keep the prices at full for several years at least. It seems to devalue things in the minds of customers.

I would get the 'discounted' Kontakt 5 full if I were you.


----------



## Tanuj Tiku (Jul 3, 2012)

Jay,

I am not trying to put EW down. I rarely get into such debates and I am sure you have not seen me bashing any company for no reason.

However, my points stand because as it happens, every month, I see an EW related post in which several members are shouting out for help or angry with customer support. Its common knowledge. 

I do however praise the efforts of everyone at EW for trying to create good products for all of us to use. 

I do feel, the quality people expect from such products seems to have gone down (of course, just my feeling).

I have read posts by several members as quoting - Cinewinds is mostly not that good, but there are some good things in it. They also seem to expect that a 1.0 release will have many bugs. 

Why this is acceptable or is expected is beyond me. If anything, we must strive for the highest quality possible specially with such important products. 

Which brings me to VSL. There is no denying of their unprecedented efforts in improving their software and sampling line. Something I wish other developers will either learn from or get inspired to do the same.

Some of the demos of various EW libraries do sound good. So, yes you are right there is good in there. At one point, I did seriously consider Hollywood Strings and even brass. However, I found Samplemodeling much better suited to my needs and I am going to get LASS very soon.

So once again, this is not to put EW down. Of course, I am always around on the forum listening to other people's music and new technologies. If, in the future I do find something compelling enough from EW, I will most definitely purchase their products. 

And lastly, some of the remarks I made were not EW-limited. I was talking about the new developers at large. 

I do wish all of the developers the very best. I own many products from most of these developers. In the end, its whatever that allows us to make the best music possible.

But, I think there is a lot of room for improvement just as there is always in VSL products and even my own music. 

I stand by what I have said but in the hope that I will find certain products more suitable for my music making.


Tanuj.


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## nikolas (Jul 3, 2012)

The only two things I've preordered are LASS and LASS 2 - PERIOD!

EW is off for me, because of PLAY, for a long time. In the past, when they started with PLAY they got out with 6 libraries that were not my cup of tea, so I didn't really care for them. Then the rest are fine, but still I can find other libraries to do the same.

EW is a company and the SOL forums are THEIR forums. If they run it with an iron fist, so be it: QUIT using it. There's always VI-CONTROL which gets much better moderation, and you can actually speak your mind about anything pretty much (apparently including Merkel and her insanity! :D)


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## knightacs (Jul 3, 2012)

midphase @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> knightacs @ Mon Jul 02 said:
> 
> 
> > But honestly, why do you care? No one said you need to pre-order anything.
> ...



Thanks for the insult, I guess. Hope you made yourself feel better.

Anyway, I've noticed the thing about people being ok with more and more bugs in terms of all kinds of software. I think it's partly because the software is getting more complex so more bugs are to be expected, and partly because everything seems to be rushed out for release without proper testing. 

With sample developers I tend to be more forgiving considering most of these companies are very small operations and run by composers, not by businessmen. That said, sometimes things are released that by no means should be released in their current condition. There should be a rule that a developer can't set a release date until they are at least in the beta testing phase (and shouldn't take pre-orders until then either, in case of delays).

Back on topic, I don't usually browse EW's forums because of the censoring that I've heard about over and over. I mean, it is their forums and they can do whatever they want with them, but I have no interest in a place like that. I agree that VI Control is a much better place, even to ask questions about EW because at least you know you won't get banned for asking. :lol:


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## Daryl (Jul 3, 2012)

knightacs @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> With sample developers I tend to be more forgiving considering most of these companies are very small operations and run by composers, not by businessmen.


However, if they are taking your money, and there is no right to a properly working product, I don't see the distinction. They are businessmen (or women). They may not be very good at it, but that's another issue. :wink: 

D


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## Niah (Jul 3, 2012)

Daryl @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> knightacs @ Tue Jul 03 said:
> 
> 
> > With sample developers I tend to be more forgiving considering most of these companies are very small operations and run by composers, not by businessmen.
> ...



Exactly.

Daryl I must say that almost every post you have written over the past days have articulated so well where I stand on many issues here.

This is one of them I don't understand this attitude of just because a certain company is smaller in scale that costumers need to give them a break. 

The market will only improve in quality if costumers are demanding and speak out. Giving them "special treatment" or "forgiving them" has a negative impact in the long run on all of us.


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## 9loops (Jul 3, 2012)

lux @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> Have you checked if the mods there were Italian?



:mrgreen:


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 3, 2012)

vibrato @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> Jay,
> 
> I am not trying to put EW down. I rarely get into such debates and I am sure you have not seen me bashing any company for no reason.
> 
> ...



I think that the biggest hiccups have been trying to get Play 3 64 bit on the Mac stable and the fact that HS was just so massive that some mistakes fell through the cracks. Also, people were taken aback by the resource requirements of it. Again, since I have been running Play 3 64 bit with HS and HB on an SSD in VE Pro on a PC, it has been as smooth as butter. And I run SD2, Silk, Symphonic Choirs, and RA frequently on my Mac in VE Pro with no problems.

To a lesser extent, other companies that are putting out better but more complex libraries are getting tarred with that brush as well. You can't have it both ways. If you are on the cutting edge, sometimes you will bleed a little.

And yes, sometimes it took too long for people to get help, but that is why they hired me app., 18 months ago and I am not bragging but stating a fact when I say I have literally helped hundreds in that time.

When I first posted on Gearslutz, I was met with a tidal wave of hostility and suspicion, called "the first virtual sellout", etc. Now if you go there, you see post after post saying "Jay got me the help I need, contact him" and "thank you EastWest Lurker for being here."

VSL makes great libraries, Great products are also made for Kontakt. But for some kinds of things, IMHO, nobody can touch what my favorite EW libraries bring to the table and if EW fired me tomorrow, they would still be my "go to" ones. 

And if you doubt my sincerity folks, please remember the reason I was offered this job is because I was _already_ defending EW when I thought the attacks were unfair before they ever gave me free products or hired me. I did the same for Kirk Hunter, Sonivox, and others as well and lately, you have sometimes seen me stick up for EW's competitors, so disagree with me if you wish, but I AM sincere and I never write anything I do not believe to be true.

And also, Tanuj, believe it or not, this forum is not solely comprised of knowledgeable, unbiased users. so while you should consider what they write, it isn't empirical truth and sometimes generates more heat than light. Some members who regularly and successfully use EW products (I will not out them  have told me in PMs, emails and phone calls they simply don't want to spend time arguing with people here so they don't post that.


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## RobertPeetersPiano (Jul 3, 2012)

My topic about the New European right to resell software! got deleted too..

That's like saying, YES we need to do it, but we don't want to...


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## Theseus (Jul 3, 2012)

Niah @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> Daryl @ Tue Jul 03 said:
> 
> 
> > knightacs @ Tue Jul 03 said:
> ...



Agree 100 % with Niah and Daryl. There are two things that obviously lack in many companies producing samples : 

- First is project management skills ;
- Second is quality control process.

This lead to all the buggy software released. Some seem to understand the importance of the above-mentionned essential skills and try to improve and incorporate those elements. But it seems that most don't and rely on the "understanding" of end clients that seem to acknowledge easily that this is all normal.

I perfectly understand that from a business point of view, those developments for samples are complex, costy and time consuming. But that's precisely when proper project management, anticipation of the risks and Gantt Diagrams help tremendously.

I don't think we should lower the treshold, that's not a service to us end-users or to them developers.


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## RobertPeetersPiano (Jul 3, 2012)

RobertPeetersPiano @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> My topic about the New European right to resell software! got deleted too..
> 
> That's like saying, YES we need to do it, but we don't want to...



And now I can't post anything anymore on their forum, without even getting a PM with a warning. 

Wow EW, that's really mature..


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## knightacs (Jul 3, 2012)

Niah @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> Daryl @ Tue Jul 03 said:
> 
> 
> > However, if they are taking your money, and there is no right to a properly working product, I don't see the distinction. They are businessmen (or women). They may not be very good at it, but that's another issue. :wink:
> ...



Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't give anyone a pass on that kind of thing. What I meant was that I can understand how it happens. You have 1 or 2 composers that say "Hey, we should make a sample library!" and they get in over their heads because they are so excited about the product that they are making. Mistakes are made and hopefully they learn from them. I'm just not gonna blow up about it. However when a company like Sony doesn't take proper security precautions, gets hacked, and has a bunch of PSN user's credit card info stolen, that is absolutely unforgivable. That's what I meant. 

Although it is odd that you see the same kind of mistakes getting made over and over again, like "We are releasing in _______!", then delay after delay after delay. I would have thought people would have learned not to do that after the whole DVZ thing.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 3, 2012)

RobertPeetersPiano @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> RobertPeetersPiano @ Tue Jul 03 said:
> 
> 
> > My topic about the New European right to resell software! got deleted too..
> ...



Disagree or not, here are the forums' rules:

_"We reserve the right to close or remove any post or thread at any time for any reason, without notice. This includes posts and/or threads with content that can be considered industry sensitive. If after reading the forum rules the reason for the thread/post removal is not clear to you, please PM admin to ask for further explanation. Do not, under any circumstances, post in the thread or start a new thread asking why your thread or post was removed. We know that this can be frustrating, but please remember we are in the music software business. At times there will be certain things that we can't discuss on the boards for business or legal reasons. These topics will be removed without warning or further notice."
_


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## RobertPeetersPiano (Jul 3, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> RobertPeetersPiano @ Tue Jul 03 said:
> 
> 
> > RobertPeetersPiano @ Tue Jul 03 said:
> ...



It's quite difficult to PM Admin if you got suspended. Besides, your rule says nothing about suspension, does it?


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 3, 2012)

RobertPeetersPiano @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jul 03 said:
> 
> 
> > RobertPeetersPiano @ Tue Jul 03 said:
> ...



a) It's not MY rules.

b) It can hardly be surprising that if a person violate the rules multiple times he/she gets suspended. It's even happened here.


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## RobertPeetersPiano (Jul 3, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> RobertPeetersPiano @ Tue Jul 03 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jul 03 said:
> ...



IMO this is not a violation, your rule just states that you can delete whatever you want, if you don't like it, you remove it. But it does not say that I am not allowed to post things I want to know. 
So in my opinion, I got suspended, because I asked the wrong question, what kind of policy is that?


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## dinerdog (Jul 3, 2012)

I'll tell you what I would pre-order: ANYTHING from Spectrasonics.

Now BACK TO WORK people.

/\~O


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 3, 2012)

Robert, it seems to me, and I did not follow it on that forum, that you perhaps got suspended because you asked "the wrong question", were warned, and yet persisted along the same lines with exactly the same kind of questions.

Years ago, I worked with a guitarist. The leader sad to him, "don't play too loud" and set his amplifier to 5. Afterwards, the guitarist turned it to 8. The leader said, "that is too loud". The guitarist then turned it down to 7. The leader again said, "that is too loud". The guitarist turned it down to 6.

He was fired.


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## IvanP (Jul 3, 2012)

Jay...I'm not sure what we're discussing anymore, if the info on the WW library, "freedom of censorship" or else...

In this particular case, this library is making it's main selling point from the "Hollywood" brand, whose concept and production was made by 2 extremely talented guys + an AAA mixing artist. 

My question, being industry sensitive or not, legitimate or not, was IMO necessary to be answered, since the marketing done behind is 100 % linked to the previous products. Inability to ONLY say whether the concept is done with these people or not (and I repeat, I don't care about personal or private issues) may lead to false perception of the product and, thus, to false advertisement. Just ask your marketing guys about that. 

Of course, EW is a private company, forum, etc and they have the rights to do in their company whatever they want to do - as far as customer communication goes - 

But mine is a private company too, and, since I make my income exclusively from music, I do not like being taken for a fool. Nor a lot of people thinking the same as I do. 

So, just as we need to respect your communication decisions, please, accept that a few people may want to discuss this policy openly. 

And, still, if the product turns out to be good enough, these same raving people (me included) will probably buy it.

Whatever happens in between, because of such a rush of releasing a product announcement at the same time when a competitor releases his own, will depend on your ability to comply with people's expectations and demands (again, call the marketing guys). Because, believe it or not, there are and there will be expectations (= need of clear info). And you have to understand that whatever is happening here is a consequence of your silence. Again, company decisions. Just accept the consequences as we need to accept that lack of info. 

And, at least, in this sense, deleting and not answering what is needed to be answered is a bad move. But, again, that's only my personal opinion and I'm just free as you are to disclose it openly or not. 

End of log.


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## RobertPeetersPiano (Jul 3, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> Robert, it seems to me, and I did not follow it on that forum, that you perhaps got suspended because you asked "the wrong question", were warned, and yet persisted along the same lines with exactly the same kind of questions.
> 
> Years ago, I worked with a guitarist. The leader sad to him, "don't play too loud" and set his amplifier to 5. Afterwards, the guitarist turned it to 8. The leader said, "that is too loud". The guitarist then turned it down to 7. The leader again said, "that is too loud". The guitarist turned it down to 6.
> 
> He was fired.



It's true that my account got suspended once (before this time). That was because I made treads in the general section that belonged in the support section. I clearly indicated to Admin that I did that, because the support section just doesn't work (with an exception for the click/pops post, that does get a lot of attention there). But normally, you get far more response from the general area than the support, and I want my problem to be fixed soon. But since Admin didn't like that answer, I told him that I would agree to the rules, and that I would post support things in the support section. Since that time, I have placed things in the right section.

Another time a post got deleted, because I was asking about the true nature of moving the posts. (regarding to the clicking problem) Admin didn't like it, said that the clicking was CLEARLY system specific, and deleted my post.

And now I made this post about the new reselling rule. It got deleted, and my account suspended, without anything more. 

Is this the same thing as the guitar player? I don't think so, because the guitar player was playing on a decent guitar, and I have a lot of trouble with your software, and your support.


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## Vlzmusic (Jul 3, 2012)

I`ll chime in, Jay, just to add, since you know my situation right now - sometimes its really a question of aftertaste. When people feel warm and welcome - they tend to dismiss a lot of technical flaws with the software, or other kind of problems. Sometimes its all about feeling wanted (after paying the order).


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 3, 2012)

IvanP @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> Jay...I'm not sure what we're discussing anymore, if the info on the WW library, "freedom of censorship" or else...
> 
> In this particular case, this library is making it's main selling point from the "Hollywood" brand, whose concept and production was made by 2 extremely talented guys + an AAA mixing artist.
> 
> ...



I can only say that I raised these issues myself twice and was told "Jay, for reasons we cannot go into at this time, we have no comment".

But I don't think it is "false advertising" to continue the series with different people, IF that is what is happening, any more than continuing "Batman" with different directors and composers is.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 3, 2012)

Vlzmusic @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> I`ll chime in, Jay, just to add, since you know my situation right now - sometimes its really a question of aftertaste. When people feel warm and welcome - they tend to dismiss a lot of technical flaws with the software, or other kind of problems. Sometimes its all about feeling wanted (after paying the order).



I hear you, and I get it. If I ran things at EW, or any other company for that matter, there are things I might do differently and others I might do the same. But EW has been very successful for 25 years now so they must be doing more right than wrong.


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## mark812 (Jul 3, 2012)

Yeah, that's why I won't buy anything from East West anytime soon. They could produce the best libraries ever, but customer treatment is equally important to me. :wink:


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## Vlzmusic (Jul 3, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> ... they must be doing more right than wrong.



I never questioned that - sampling-wise. I consider EWQLSO being the winner of previous generation of sample orchestras, and as of now, HS gold was a simple choice for the price. I use my other CCC libraries as well - and enjoy it. 

Hope everything will sort out for all of us - devs, producers, workers and users o-[][]-o


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jul 3, 2012)

Jay,

I dont need to always use EW libraries it seems. Right after your post, there was another user complaining about EW deleting yet another post.

The melodrama continues and it proves my point that for some weird reason EW is always in the news for something bad. 

In any case, I do wish you and EW all the very best and I am sure you have helped lots of people. I did not think otherwise anyway.

Perhaps, EW will come out with something good in the woodwinds. I will keep myself open about that.


Tanuj.


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## TGV (Jul 3, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> Years ago, I worked with a guitarist. ... He was fired.


This parable falls short for several reasons. One, EW doesn't work with their clients, nor hires them. Two, a forum is not a band; it's more like the audience, or the reviewer in next day's paper.

I've noticed more discomfort with EW's public relations. People complain, and all that happens is that they get shut up. All that remains on the forum is happy stories.

Besides, I've filed several bug reports, not even the simplest one has been solved. I've found more bugs, but I'm not going to file more bug reports.

That attitude of "let's all smile and sell" has made me weary of buying more of their products, that make even bigger demands on the system, and therefore have more opportunities for bugs.

Let me add another story: last year, I did a renovation in my house. Which contractor did I hire? The cheapest one, or the one that came with personal guarantee from someone I respect that he was good and reliable? It probably cost me $5000 more or so, but the result is fantastic and solid, delivered on time, according to specs, the lot. I'm happy with that contractor.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 3, 2012)

vibrato @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> The melodrama continues and it proves my point that for some weird reason EW is always in the news for something bad.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Once again, that is the case mostly in _this_ specific forum. It no longer is on Gearslutz, and that forum has many more participants than this one.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 3, 2012)

TGV @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> Besides, I've filed several bug reports, not even the simplest one has been solved. I've found more bugs, but I'm not going to file more bug reports.



Did you ever email the issues to me?


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## IvanP (Jul 3, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> [
> I can only say that I raised these issues myself twice and was told "Jay, for reasons we cannot go into at this time, we have no comment".
> 
> But I don't think it is "false advertising" to continue the series with different people, IF that is what is happening, any more than continuing "Batman" with different directors and composers is.



Fair enough, Jay, thks for addressing the issue. 

Enough ranting for me, then, back to work and to happiness. 

0oD


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## Niah (Jul 3, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> vibrato @ Tue Jul 03 said:
> 
> 
> > The melodrama continues and it proves my point that for some weird reason EW is always in the news for something bad.
> ...



Apples and oranges my friend. VI is a much more focused community geared specifically towards composers for film and media who use virtual instruments and sample libraries. I only use GS when I have questions about hardware. Otherwise here it's where it's at.

I always had the perception that EW was beloved by the majority here until PLAY arrived and the relationship with this community has all been downhill from there.

All that is irrelevant of course but I really feel that EW will always be commercially successful because DR is a good businessman. However the departure of Nick and TJ makes one question if the future products will appeal to most of this community...


----------



## rgames (Jul 3, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> Play 3 64 bit with HS and HB on an SSD in VE Pro on a PC, it has been as smooth as butter.


Oh no - not the dreaded butter again... 

Seriously, though, since we're discussing EW, this is part of the problem I have with them. We get lots of good technical info on VSL and Kontakt products but precious little on EW products. The people describing their experience with VSL and Kontakt express their performance using actual *units* like #voices/machine or #voices/buffer or amount of memory used or or or. And there's lots of info on density of orchestration and how that affects performance.

For EW, all we get is measurements in terms of "Butter". Perhaps I'm dense but I don't know the units of "Butter" or even if my "Butter" is the same as your "Butter."

When people start having problems and there's nothing factual to counter their experiences, you get a public relations problem. Unfortunately it doesn't matter if the problem is real or not - it's the perception that matters.

Also, I've been seriously screwed by EW support. I've also been seriously screwed by VSL. Here's the difference: VSL fixed it in the end. EW never did. The mark of a good business is not whether they get it right at the beginning - everyone screws up. What matters is whether they get it right in the end (and, to a lesser degree, how long it takes).

These observations are offered in the sincerest hope of providing some perspective 

rgames


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 3, 2012)

rgames @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jul 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Play 3 64 bit with HS and HB on an SSD in VE Pro on a PC, it has been as smooth as butter.
> ...



I have been very specific and posted what I am running on my PC numerous times. "Butter" to me means runs smoothly, with little or no crashing, performs as expected without having to jump through hoops, like freezing tracks. But, yeah I wouldn't mind more data as well.

You are welcome to email me the details of the "screwing


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## rgames (Jul 3, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> I have been very specific and posted what I am running on my PC numerous times. "Butter" to me means runs smoothly, with little or no crashing, performs as expected without having to jump through hoops, like freezing tracks. But, yeah I wouldn't mind more data as well



It's certainly possible that I missed some discussions but I've seen plenty where the info is basically what you provided there: "It works fine for me."

Unfortunately, that doesn't tell us anything because we don't know what you do with it. Single-note spicc patterns? Or 8-part divisi in quickly modulating 32nd note runs? There's a huge difference between the two in terms of system requirements.

Again, maybe I missed it but I've seen plenty of discussion where there's precious little info on EW products other than they work "like Butter." A little less subjectivity and a little more actual data would go a long way.

Anyway, I think you get the point. Ne need to belabor it.

rgames


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## kgdrum (Jul 3, 2012)

The level of denial from EW & or Jay is amazing.
There are so many developers here as well as on other forums.
Some developers always seem to have great products & they offer honest support,open discussion about their products, if there are issues it's discussed,fixed and clients love and support them.2 that come to mind for me in this category: Spectrasonics & OrangeTree.
1 being a large company and the other more of a great boutique company,of course there's others but these are 2 examples.
Virtually no other developers continually have these kind of heated threads(almost 100 posts now) about the problems with performance,stated system requirements not being accurate and their refusal to let clients ask pertinent questions and getting straight answers on their forum.
Jay does try, i will give him that,he believes in the product but why is it always East West?
Why do we always get no answers or strange denials and answers in convoluted metaphors?
It's obvious Jay is not allowed to answer these questions and he doesn't want to lose his job but let's be honest these type of threads seem to always involve EW 99% of the time.
.
What a silly game EW PLAYS over & over again.
If everything is great with East West & their products,Play,their forums and the level of support and communication to their clients,why do these heated strange threads only happen with East West?
Just asking........


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## Arbee (Jul 3, 2012)

Don't you just love watching democracy and market forces at work? 

When someone (like me 6 months ago) is starting fresh and deciding what to buy, they join forums like these to get the buzz on who's who. Then, together with listening to zillions of demos they decide and part with their money. Bad press, and good press BTW, can be (and are) unbalanced sometimes by forums like these. If you take a balanced view though, factors like poor testing/QA, poor customer service and vendor arrogance clearly appear through the fog. As a software developer, I remember the good old days of the arrogant "IT Elite" who really believed the rest of the human race, especially customers, were actually morons. The more progressive folk have since realised they are in a service industry.

With the help of this forum, and my ears, I believe I've made very well informed decisions and dodged some bullets. I may have missed a few gems here and there but I fire up my PC, load everything up, it sounds great, and it all works. Thank you all!


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## kgdrum (Jul 3, 2012)

askmusic @ Tue 03 Jul said:


> kgdrum @ Tue Jul 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Jay does try, i will give him that,he believes in the product but why is it always East West?
> ...



I was asking rhetorically & I couldn't disagree more! lol
The EastWest buttered rum koolaid you guys are drinking must be tasty!!

I don't think there's an EastWest conspiracy or we all feel like we need a common enemy.
I think enough people have stated their problems with EW's practices for everyone to know: when there's smoke there's fire.


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## José Herring (Jul 3, 2012)

rgames @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jul 03 said:
> 
> 
> > I have been very specific and posted what I am running on my PC numerous times. "Butter" to me means runs smoothly, with little or no crashing, performs as expected without having to jump through hoops, like freezing tracks. But, yeah I wouldn't mind more data as well
> ...



Play works on PC with little or no problems. I use it everyday and I slam it. I run HS Gold and HB Gold off of one 7200 drive. I host Play in VEPro5 and I can get easily over 1000 note polyphony with this setup and I haven't had it crash in 3 months.

Off of 7200 drives in the first few seconds of use it can dropout, but once it the buffers fill up the dropouts disappear. I've got an SSD on order so I feel that should improve the dropout situation. But as it stands now, the dropouts are just in the first few seconds of use, then it runs smoothly.

Jay can speak for himself, but when he says it runs like "butter" on his PC...he's not exaggerating. He's got a fully loaded i7 950 with SATAIII ssd to run HS+HB Platinum.

HS even HS Gold is really demanding. HB Gold is not demanding but the patches are still huge. I would recommend if you use HS Gold to get the SSD. It will run on 7200 drives really well, but if you want it to work flawlessly then you need SSD. HB runs no problems at all on 7200 drives, at least HB Gold does. I'm not sure about the plat version of HB.

All in all, even with my 7200 drives, I can do full string and brass pieces without experience problems. Would run even smoother when I get the SSD.

best,

José


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## kgdrum (Jul 3, 2012)

Well if that means you need to switch platforms or buy a PC to get the software to work well than there's something wrong with PLAY!
Every other company seems to be able to make VI's that work well on both Mac & PC's.

And again the thread topic is : EW forum WTF,
not buy a new computer to use our VI.
lol


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## Dan Mott (Jul 3, 2012)

Hi

If this helps............

On a PC - Windows 7 64bit Professional - Pro Tools 9 - 24GB RAM - i7 920 QUAD 2.67GHz -

HS is on a 512GB Crucial SSD. Did some testing ages ago and all the powerful patches run very well. No problems with PLAY here. I guess I'm lucky.

ENGINE player doesn't like my 64bit system. Software has a mind of it's own..


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## jleckie (Jul 3, 2012)

kgdrum @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> People need an enemy. Life is not good without an enemy. And it seems for some people here EW is the enemy. This is at least, what I read out of this thread. I personally cannot comprehend it, because I am a happy EW user. But I also have an enemy in the sampling world. So I don't want to criticize people for writing things like in this thread. But I think we should not take the statements of this thread as the general persuasion of EW. Because if that was the case, I would be quite suprised, that EW is still active on the market.



Eh- yeah no luv 4 East West. Plenty of time for other developers to fall into that category as well. 8Dio is heading in that direction too. Eventually this forum will scare most developers away. It is inevitable. It is the nature of forums. Just get used to it. Lots of complaining, mostly disinformation. 

Best to fasten your seat belt, be entertained and gleam the 5% of good ole honest feedback that helps. The rest is all popcorn baby.

Someone once told me its turtles all the way down. Nah- its definitely popcorn.

I've talked to devs about forums and they hate them. Mostly noise they say. Thats true. So put on yer filters. Its a rough ride. But it can be entertaining!


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## Hanu_H (Jul 4, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> But I don't think it is "false advertising" to continue the series with different people, IF that is what is happening, any more than continuing "Batman" with different directors and composers is.


I think that the thing bugging people the most, is the fact that EW has announced many times that the Hollywood series will be done by these famous guys. And now they are not telling if it's true anymore. They just hope people won't notice that they are missing from the specs. And if someone asks about it, gets deleted and banned. I think it's vital for this product to survive this woodwinds battle to get this information sorted out and say how it is. Taking your Batman example on this would be another sequel without any information who's doing what and people expecting that the same people doing the previous one would do the new one. It totally is misleading and dishonest way of making business. Maybe it's not direct laying but it's just leaving essential information out.


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 4, 2012)

jleckie @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> Eh- yeah no luv 4 East West. Plenty of time for other developers to fall into that category as well. 8Dio is heading in that direction too. Eventually this forum will scare most developers away. It is inevitable. It is the nature of forums. Just get used to it. Lots of complaining, mostly disinformation.
> 
> Best to fasten your seat belt, be entertained and gleam the 5% of good ole honest feedback that helps. The rest is all popcorn baby.
> 
> ...



Hmm, not really. No doubt, there's some nonsense here, there's nonsense everywhere. I think the hit rate at VI-C is well, well above 5% though.

And of course some devs dislike open discussion. If they can control all the information and debate, of course they'll prefer it. In what way, however, is this of any use to the consumer?

Happily, not all devs behave in this way, and their contributions here are invaluable. I think most of us here know who those are who'd prefer a closed shop - it's certainly more than the obvious target.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 4, 2012)

Hanu_H @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jul 03 said:
> 
> 
> > But I don't think it is "false advertising" to continue the series with different people, IF that is what is happening, any more than continuing "Batman" with different directors and composers is.
> ...



Well first of all, Nick and T.J., as talented and accomplished as they are, are hardly famous. 

Anyway, when a library is released and the demos come out if they sound great or they sound bad, does anyone really care who created it? Some of my favorite libraries were created by guys who are lucky if their wife remembers their name


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## wst3 (Jul 4, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> Anyway, when a library is released and the demos come out if they sound great or they sound bad, does anyone really care who created it?
> 
> BINGO - well, half bingo anyway. Demos can be useful as a high water mark - the tell us what the library is capable of. They provide no real indication of what we might accomplish with the library. And it really doesn't matter who created the demos, what matters is who created the library.
> 
> ...



That is one of the best, and funniest comments yet on a forum filled with some really smart, and really clever folks. Thanks for that!

(And the reason their wives can't remember their names, at least far as I can tell from personal experience, is that they spend too much time in their studios!!!)


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## zvenx (Jul 4, 2012)

May I ask out of curiosity what was the last EW title that didn't' have Nick's involvement?

rsp


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## Hanu_H (Jul 4, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> Well first of all, Nick and T.J., as talented and accomplished as they are, are hardly famous.
> 
> Anyway, when a library is released and the demos come out if they sound great or they sound bad, does anyone really care who created it? Some of my favorite libraries were created by guys who are lucky if their wife remembers their name


In the sample library world they are well known for their abilities and that has been a big selling point for EW's Hollywood series. Announcing it in every possible way. I don't care, I am not going to buy more of EW stuff, I got it covered already. But I am just saying the simple reason behind the peoples frustration, no need to try to explain it, it is what it is. Demos of course show us the sound of the library no doubt, but some people value more the people behind it than the actual sound. It's weird I know, but that's the reasons why EW always remembers to mention it. If it was made by John Williams I am sure many people would buy it even if it was crap. :D


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## Daryl (Jul 4, 2012)

Hanu_H @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jul 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Well first of all, Nick and T.J., as talented and accomplished as they are, are hardly famous.
> ...


Actually, I think Jay's right on this one. Outside of this forum nobody would know who they were. I bet you if I spoke to my composer friends who are not on this forum, a few might have heard of Nick, because he has been creating sample libraries for a while, but nobody would have heard of Thomas. No reason why they should either. There are many fantastic composers, arrangers and the rest that nobody here has ever heard of either. :wink: 

D


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 4, 2012)

Hanu_H @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jul 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Well first of all, Nick and T.J., as talented and accomplished as they are, are hardly famous.
> ...



Them please explain to me how libraries by companies like CineSamples were successful right off the bat? Did anyone here know of either of the 2 Mikes? Was Hans Adamson well known before his pianos? How about Greg of Orange Tree?

I don't believe for a nanosecond that many people said, "Ooh, EW's Hollywood Series is being done by Nick and TJ, gotta have it!"

OTOH, having Shawn Murphy or Dennis Sands record it probably DOES some of that because they truly ARE famous in the world of film music. 

OK, guys I have said all I can say. As always, the marketplace decides. 

Happy 4th to those of you who are Americans.


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## José Herring (Jul 4, 2012)

_I don't believe for a nanosecond that many people said, "Ooh, EW's Hollywood Series is being done by Nick and TJ, gotta have it!"

OTOH, having Shawn Murphy or Dennis Sands record it probably DOES some of that because they truly ARE famous in the world of film music. _


Believe it.

These names were big selling points for me as well as many others.

Personally, I trust things that are created by people that do what we do. Nick and especially TJ being the best out there certainly made me look hard at HS and HB. Then of course it was the final sound that sold me. 

So I wouldn't discount the names involved. And, I do seriously want to know what involvement did Nick and TJ have in HOW? I think it's important to know. 

Nick and TJ had a vision for the Hollywood Series. HS and HB fit hand in glove because of it. Did that vision live on or has there been an abrupt change in the approach due to their lack of involvement? What effect will their lack of supervision have on HOW and percussion?

No amount of "spin" can cover up that there's a serious problem here and that some questions should be answered, imo.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 4, 2012)

josejherring @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jul 04 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't believe for a nanosecond that many people said, "Ooh, EW's Hollywood Series is being done by Nick and TJ, gotta have it!"
> ...



Respectfully, baloney  

Here is my prediction: If HOW sounds as good as HS & HB do, it will be commercially successful.

OK, I have to do things to get ready for our party.


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## José Herring (Jul 4, 2012)

Nevermind.


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## IvanP (Jul 4, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> I don't believe for a nanosecond that many people said, "Ooh, EW's Hollywood Series is being done by Nick and TJ, gotta have it!"
> 
> OTOH, having Shawn Murphy or Dennis Sands record it probably DOES some of that because they truly ARE famous in the world of film music.



Big Error....and I thought all of this was to camouflage any personal issue...

but if this is true in EW's minds...I'm quite surprised at their lack of understanding of the sampling niche. 

I would bet my money 1st on a Nick, TJ, 8Dio, Soundiron or CineMikes produced and conceived library VS any library with a big name on the recording. 

Having Sands or Murphy is a GREAT asset, but what's the point of having a good recording if you don't know what to record or what to use afterwards? Conception is the most important part. And when a great musician who's also a great mockupist conceives a library, he will think as a musician 1st, not as a business man. 

This will mean to understand that he will have to pick the best possible musicians, the best gear, etc. But that's the guy thinking before. If you take it out, who's in charge of pre-production?

A business man?

And when TJ said he partnered with Nick to produce a "custom library" for the masses, YES! everybody DID go Oooooh!
Just the same as when Colin joined Troels, etc. 
What's Cinesamples' moto? Musicians working with musicians thinking as musicians FOR musicians...

Who are the guys buying and using sample libraries? Mixers? Mixers fans of Shawn Murphy? Nope. Composers, mockupists and fans of these people's previous achievements. 

Pfff...again, you're taking customers for idiots. Saying now that TJ's and Nick aren't that important is just a lame business strategy. To devalue their input and work openly is really dumb. You're not convincing anyone. 

The problem will be IF EW really thinks so (I don't take EW for fools, so I assume this is just the classic devaluating strategy)...but, if it were so... then...I guess EW's future products and their uncertain usability - BUT with awesome recording quality - will showcase this new product strategy.


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## Ian Livingstone (Jul 4, 2012)

TJ and Nick were big selling points for me too - famous amongst composers and midi mockup-ers - yes definitely.

It's not just about the engineering, room players and editing - alot of the magic in sample libraries is about coaxing the performance - I just hope EW managed to capture something as equally great this time round.

Yes I'd like to know these answers too.


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## Hanu_H (Jul 4, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> Them please explain to me how libraries by companies like CineSamples were successful right off the bat? Did anyone here know of either of the 2 Mikes? Was Hans Adamson well known before his pianos? How about Greg of Orange Tree?
> 
> I don't believe for a nanosecond that many people said, "Ooh, EW's Hollywood Series is being done by Nick and TJ, gotta have it!"
> 
> ...


It's not about knowing people, it's about hearing them. I was totally sold for CineSamples after hearing couple of their demos done by mysterious Mr. Michael Patti. Same thing with EWQLSO. Heard some demos by Nick and bought it. Its because if you know how to archieve something you also know how to make it easier.

And also if it doesn't matter at all why not just say it out loud that they were not involved with HOW to get rid of this problem. Then people can really focus on to the product not the issues with the company's policies. Then we can forget Nick and TJ, listen to the demos and make up our mind to the one way or the other. And I certainly hope EW all the best, I own many of their libraries and use them every day.

Cheers,

-Hannes


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## nikolas (Jul 4, 2012)

Oh come on... If Nick and TJ were *NOT* a selling point of HS why on earth take pictures of them and keep having them there and mentioning them all the time? Just for the kicks?!?! 

Let's get real here for a second. 

I know that a lot of libraries get around via the 'word of mouth' (as I've been told by developers) and I'm ready to bet that a lot of that is coming from forums, such as this and youtube, myspace, twitter and the such. And anything that has inside the Internet + sample libraries is bound to have heard the name TJ for one or another reason... It didn't take me long to learn about TJ (And certainly not about nick since my first library was from EW). 

PS Greg of Orange Tree Samples is an awesome person apart from a great developer and his products work as advertised (plus I don't think I've ever gotten an update because of a 'serious bug' from him ever!) Ah... it's nice to spam, huh? :D


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 4, 2012)

nikolas @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> Oh come on... If Nick and TJ were *NOT* a selling point of HS why on earth take pictures of them and keep having them there and mentioning them all the time? Just for the kicks?!?!
> 
> Let's get real here for a second.
> 
> ...



OK, bought the umbrella for the table and exchanged the propane tank

Indeed, let's get real here for a second. You are assuming that the sales from this forum are a big part of a library's commercial success and while that may be true for smaller developers, it simply is not true for EW. EW gets far more sales from Gearslutz than here and far more from people who do not populate any specific forum but who read reviews in Electronic Musician, Mix Magazine and YouTube. And in the case of HS and HB they have ben almost uniformly glowing.

One developer told me that he has had an amazing amount of sales coming from Japan. He has no idea why they became so widely popular there but it obviously has nothing to do with this forum. 

Don't misunderstand me, I am sure EW values each and every sale it makes to a forum member here. And certainly I do, which is why I spend as much time as I do here discussing stuff. But it really is a small piece of the total potential sales pie.

OK, off to pickup my sister-in-law's birthday cake


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## tripit (Jul 4, 2012)

It doesn't matter one bit to me if some name is attached. I've never bought a library because someone from inside our little myopic group of incredibly obsessed people was touted. 

It was always and will always be how it sounded to me, how well did it play, how stable is it and how much does it cost. I couldn't care less if frekin HZ himself stepped up and was selling the "ultimate" library. 

I bought libraries from people and companies I've never heard of until I bought their library. Including VSL, EW, Tonehammer, Cinesamples etc, etc, etc 

I think some of you place way too much importance on a name like TJ.
Just saying.


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## nikolas (Jul 4, 2012)

Jay, very quickly cause I have to go as well:

I mentioned forum*S* such as this, along with youtube, myspace, etc... I'm not saying that vi-control is bringing tons of sales (though I don't have any real numbers), but I am saying that people who frequent forums and the internet might have heard the names of TJ and Nick! That's all... 

(PS. I love TJs and Nicks music, but I don't care for HS... Don't get me wrong. I don't buy stuff because of the name behind it, but I do realize that it's an asset)


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## tripit (Jul 4, 2012)

It doesn't matter one bit to me if some name is attached. I've never bought a library because someone from inside our little myopic group of incredibly obsessed people was touted. 

It was always and will always be how it sounded to me, how well did it play, how stable is it and how much does it cost. I couldn't care less if frekin HZ himself stepped up and was selling the "ultimate" library. 

I bought libraries from people and companies I've never heard of until I bought their library. Including VSL, EW, Tonehammer, Cinesamples etc, etc, etc 

I think some of you place way too much importance on a name like TJ.
Just saying.


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## choc0thrax (Jul 4, 2012)

I think a decent amount of people know who TJ is. I mean my friend who knows nothing about samples and has never set foot on one of these sites knows about him. Of course.... I guess that's just from me telling him about TJ over the years. What's funny is he brought up Nick and TJ in conversation the other week since he's producing a big film and wondered if I thought they would be able to score it.


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## mpalenik (Jul 4, 2012)

choc0thrax @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> I think a decent amount of people know who TJ is. I mean my friend who knows nothing about samples and has never set foot on one of these sites knows about him.



Really? Because after hanging out here for almost a year, I only have the vaguest notion of who he is. I can assure you, nobody outside of the industry has any idea who he is.


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 4, 2012)

mpalenik @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> I can assure you, nobody outside of the industry has any idea who he is.



Who do EWQL sell products to who are not "the industry"?


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## TheUnfinished (Jul 4, 2012)

I know plenty of people who aren't composers (but do buy VSTs, samples, etc.) who know exactly who Thomas and Nick are and respect them a lot.

Not that I think it's important. I am, however, interested in why two people who I respect have apparently left a project that they were a major part of.

EW have every right to announce why when they choose to, but they'd be mad to think that people won't speculate about why and suspect it's a negative reason. You can't just wish away years of poor customer service and self-congratulatory obfuscation.


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## nikolas (Jul 4, 2012)

This thread is 4 pages long, and it's focused on TJ and Nick being in the production team of HWW or not! Doesn't this give an insight that no matter what we, personal, think, the crowd here thinks that it's an impoartant issue.


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## choc0thrax (Jul 4, 2012)

mpalenik @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> choc0thrax @ Wed Jul 04 said:
> 
> 
> > I think a decent amount of people know who TJ is. I mean my friend who knows nothing about samples and has never set foot on one of these sites knows about him.
> ...



Eh, I'm sure at least a few people out of the tens of millions of clicks for Two Steps from Hell videos know who he is.

Anyways thank you for the update on you not knowing who he is. I'll mark that down in my diary of important things to know. This site has over 5 thousand members. If only 200 are fans of his is it not worth putting his name on a product? If you have a choice between making money and making more money, which would you choose?

I'm not sure how much money comes in from people outside the industry. You don't make a lot from some 19 year old industry outsider torrenting your library.


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## RobertPeetersPiano (Jul 4, 2012)

nikolas @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> This thread is 4 pages long, and it's focused on TJ and Nick being in the production team of HWW or not! Doesn't this give an insight that no matter what we, personal, think, the crowd here thinks that it's an impoartant issue.



+1


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 4, 2012)

nikolas @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> the crowd here thinks that it's an impoartant issue.



Undeniable but Tripit wrote: "our little myopic group of incredibly obsessed people"

Perhaps he has a point? Just asking


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## nikolas (Jul 4, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> nikolas @ Wed Jul 04 said:
> 
> 
> > the crowd here thinks that it's an impoartant issue.
> ...


Could very well be.

And to think that after such a long time away from vi, lurking, I have 4 posts in this very thread, even if I don't own any PLAY library!

I'm a living proof of what you're saying, but this thread remains a little evident that this topic IS interesting to a lot of people, for various reasons!


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 4, 2012)

nikolas @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jul 04 said:
> 
> 
> > nikolas @ Wed Jul 04 said:
> ...



Absolutely, and I am in no way saying that if people want to speculate on this and give their opinions that they should not. But for me personally it is as interesting as speculating whether Katie Holmes is divorcing Tom Cruise due to his involvement with Scientology or not, but hey, that's just me


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 4, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> nikolas @ Wed Jul 04 said:
> 
> 
> > the crowd here thinks that it's an impoartant issue.
> ...



But as Choco says - over 5,000 members, and 1,500 checking in today alone. Who knows how many lurkers overall? Mike Greene has candidly told us how small the sample market is. VI-C is hugely significant to EWQL's market.

This all feels very strange. For EWQL's entire history, they've bigged up their contributors, and for a good reason - they know their stuff. On announcement of Hollywood Strings, the team behind it were right at the front of the sales pitch. That team has been the rod used to beat doubters. I have to say... the tone of what is coming out now feels very odd, It feels like "you silly little fanboys, none of that was ever taken seriously, grow up and just ignore everything we've been spouting for the past 10 years".

Few of us are expecting an honest, candid annoucement. But playing down the significance doesn't help any imho - it has a very negative effect on me, at least. Matt (The Unfinished) above said it well. At least, I'd hope for a polite bit of flannel - - "sorry we're not able to discuss the situation regarding EWQL staff, but rest assured HOW is the best product we've ever done etc etc etc".


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## mpalenik (Jul 4, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> mpalenik @ Wed Jul 04 said:
> 
> 
> > I can assure you, nobody outside of the industry has any idea who he is.
> ...



My comment didn't have to do with the Hollywood Orchestral Winds product. People can buy or not buy that for whatever reasons they want--I don't care or have any vested interest in East West's success or lack of success and I have basically no opinion on the company. I bought Ministry of Rock about three and a half years ago and liked it--never had any problems, even back when I was on a dual core computer with 4 GB or RAM--but everything else I own is Kontakt based. My only point was that TJ and Nick's level of fame isn't quite what it was starting to get made out to be.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 4, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jul 04 said:
> 
> 
> > nikolas @ Wed Jul 04 said:
> ...



Guy, i don't have the numbers but my best guess that 1 rave review in Electronic Musician or Mix leads to a much greater number of sales than people here. So *valuable? Sure*. "Hugely significant" ? I don''t think so, but perhaps I am wrong. I will ask Doug.

Let's do a little experiment. Omnisphere is one of the most praised and recommended libraries and Spectrasonics in general here, right? How many here actually bought it after seeing it praised here? I will be surprised if it is more than 300.

OK, I am going to take it on my own authority to write on behalf of EW: 

"Sorry we're not able to discuss the situation regarding EWQL staff, but rest assured HOW will be the same kind of great sounding and complete library that Hollywood Strings and Hollywood Brass are and it will blend with them seamlessly."


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Jul 4, 2012)

Why doesn't Nick and Thomas post on here and set the story strait?


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 4, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> "Sorry we're not able to discuss the situation regarding EWQL staff, but rest assured HOW will be the same kind of great sounding and complete library that Hollywood Strings and Hollywood Brass are and it will blend with them seamlessly."



Touche!

I'm always interested in the relative weight of print vs internet. Anecdotally, every person I've asked (either in the real world or on the net) has said that they trust user reviews and feedback on the net far more than print media. I'm also in that camp - I regularly read reviews in Sound on Sound that beggar belief, and that's about the best mag out there. There's just no comparison between that and people who use the library day to day for their jobs. The print media I find only useful for articles, interviews and - in Sound on Sound - Paul Farrer's essential Notes From The Deadline column. At times I've found myself thinking that one-page column is the ONLY reason I've just paid £4.99. For news and reviews - nah.

But... I'm fully prepared to admit my view might not be representative of all folks everywhere in the world. Would be interested to hear others take on it, but it might be best for its own thread.


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## Hanu_H (Jul 4, 2012)

tripit @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> I think some of you place way too much importance on a name like TJ.


It's definitely not about that. I am not a TJ fanboy or anything, but I know that some people are. And there's millions of youtube views to prove it. It's just the fact that it's not really fair way to treat your customers not to tell if he did work for the library or not. I think that the info at the moment is like buying a car and it's, lets say, BMW and you ask was it made in Germany and the seller says...maybe. If he didn't work it's fine by me, but don't leave it hanging in the air. That just lefts some people who are not accurate enough thinking he is actually working for this even if he's not.

And looking for the HB add running here and first thing in the add you see loud and clear, written in capitals, produced by Doug Rogers, Nick Phoenix and Thomas Bergersen. Maybe it's there to make everybody think, hmm...who are these guys. Or maybe it's there to increase the sells. I don't know maybe someone does???


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## Hanu_H (Jul 4, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> Touche!
> 
> I'm always interested in the relative weight of print vs internet. Anecdotally, every person I've asked (either in the real world or on the net) has said that they trust user reviews and feedback on the net far more than print media. I'm also in that camp - I regularly read reviews in Sound on Sound that beggar belief, and that's about the best mag out there. There's just no comparison between that and people who use the library day to day for their jobs. The print media I find only useful for articles, interviews and - in Sound on Sound - Paul Farrer's essential Notes From The Deadline column. At times I've found myself thinking that one-page column is the ONLY reason I've just paid £4.99. For news and reviews - nah.
> 
> But... I'm fully prepared to admit my view might not be representative of all folks everywhere in the world. Would be interested to hear others take on it, but it might be best for its own thread.


I think nowdays forums, facebook and youtube are a lot bigger than printed press. I think I've sold atleast 5 libraries to other people by recommending it and I doubt I am the only one. In the internet you can actually hear and see the library in action in the magazines you only can read what others say. And even if someone hears it in the magazine he will check it from internet also before buying.


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## kgdrum (Jul 4, 2012)

Jeffrey Peterson @ Wed 04 Jul said:


> Why doesn't Nick and Thomas post on here and set the story strait?




probably have a NDA.


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## synergy543 (Jul 4, 2012)

Famous or infamous, today (4th of July) is T.J.'s birthday so Happy Birthday man!

Let the fireworks begin.... o-[][]-o


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## TheUnfinished (Jul 4, 2012)

Hanu_H @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> And looking for the HB add running here and first thing in the add you see loud and clear, written in capitals, produced by Doug Rogers, Nick Phoenix and Thomas Bergersen. Maybe it's there to make everybody think, hmm...who are these guys. Or maybe it's there to increase the sells. I don't know maybe someone does???


And it's in big letters on the EW website and listed as a 'feature'.

What a waste of time, when nobody knows who they are!

*sigh*


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 4, 2012)

TheUnfinished @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> Hanu_H @ Wed Jul 04 said:
> 
> 
> > And looking for the HB add running here and first thing in the add you see loud and clear, written in capitals, produced by Doug Rogers, Nick Phoenix and Thomas Bergersen. Maybe it's there to make everybody think, hmm...who are these guys. Or maybe it's there to increase the sells. I don't know maybe someone does???
> ...



There is kind of a wide swath between "famous" and "nobody knows who they are". You might want to shoot for that.

Danny Elfman is "famous". Jeff Beal, who has won Emmys and many other awards and has done a ton of stuff, is NOT famous.

TJ and Nick are IMHO "well known and respected within the sample user and trailer world."

That work for you or are you still "Unfinished"?


----------



## IvanP (Jul 4, 2012)

Jay, 

All your latest reasoning is coming off as hyprocritical. 

You obviously have to say it because you're an EW employee... but you're not convincing anyone, no offense and I personally don't even think you believe your own words...

Whatever happened with these guys happened. But to try the devaluating option is ridiculous and you guys are just making things worse...really. 

If this is a differently conceived product, just say it and just make your marketing around whatever differences VS the other Hollywood brands will stand out. 

Again, silence and absurdity as smokescreen in trying to defer people's attention is quite naive.


----------



## JBZeon (Jul 4, 2012)

mark812 @ Tue Jul 03 said:


> Yeah, that's why I won't buy anything from East West anytime soon. They could produce the best libraries ever, but customer treatment is equally important to me. :wink:



+1


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 4, 2012)

IvanP @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> Jay,
> 
> All your latest reasoning is coming off as hyprocritical.
> 
> ...



lYou're wrong, I have written nothing I do not believe and no, I don't have to say ANYTHING as far as EW is concerned. They are OK with just letting you speculate.

But you are right, it is time for me to stop and anyway, I have nothing fresh to contribute to the discussion. Anyway my guests are here so happy 4th, all.


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## Arbee (Jul 4, 2012)

Sponsored opinion in situations like this just comes across as deliberate marketing damage control, just saying..... o[])


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## Peter Alexander (Jul 4, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jul 04 said:
> 
> 
> > nikolas @ Wed Jul 04 said:
> ...



Guy, you're an excellent speculator. Just for QLSO alone before the PLAY version was released, EW on their web site announced that 30,000 were updating. And that was _then._

The EW customer list is in the tens of thousands. They don't "need" VI to sell Hollywood Winds. 

And amidst the speculation, it _was_ mentioned on VI that Nick and TJ were involved in recording the woods and percussion because they designed and planned it.


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## devastat (Jul 4, 2012)

I remember reading somewhere that HB and the Woodwinds were recorded simultaneously. I also recall Nick Phoenix stating at some point that the Woodwinds library is "coming soon", so I assume that TJ and Nick has been there when the samples were recorded and most likely at least took _some_ part in the programming.

I use HS and HB extensively so I am very eager to get Woodwinds in that same sonic space, so I'll wait calmly for the demos and base my opinion on that.


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## jamwerks (Jul 4, 2012)

Peter Alexander @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> And amidst the speculation, it _was_ mentioned on VI that Nick and TJ were involved in recording the woods and percussion because they designed and planned it.



From what I've read, I don't think that HOP (Hollywood Orchestral Percussion) has been recorded yet. Aren't they just now planning it?


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## mpalenik (Jul 4, 2012)

Arbee @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> Sponsored opinion in situations like this just comes across as deliberate marketing damage control, just saying..... o[])



So, when Jay is silent, it's "telling" and when he's not silent, it comes across as "deliberate marketing damage control" (which is apparently a bad thing)?


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 4, 2012)

Peter Alexander @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Wed Jul 04 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jul 04 said:
> ...



Wow. Now there's a post! Where to begin? Taking all those points at face value...

First, EWQL really are a colossus. It's been said many times here at VI-C that a decent sale of a sample library is 1,000 units. I always figured a product like SO was way higher than this, but.... 30x this figure around 5 years ago?!! That really does put them into a whole other league.

Second, where does that leave measly ol' VI-C with it's paltry 5,000 registered users? Well clearly it's not the be all and end all of their business. Insignificant though? I'd hope not. Who can say how many lurkers multiply that figure, how many Google searches on their products lead to these hallowed boards? Given those staggering stats, maybe my "hugely" was speculative, but surely "significant" isn't unwarranted.

Third, it appears to have taken 5 pages and who knows how many deleted Soundsonline posts to get this basic information out regarding Nick and TJ. At the very least then, Nick and TJ designed and planned HOW. It does still leave issue of why their names aren't attached and whether or not they were either involved in the actual recording or post production.

Peter, you're a goldmine! Any other information you care to share gratefully received...


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## Arbee (Jul 4, 2012)

mpalenik @ Thu Jul 05 said:


> Arbee @ Wed Jul 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Sponsored opinion in situations like this just comes across as deliberate marketing damage control, just saying..... o[])
> ...


Not a bad thing, just that a post containing a company logo in these kinds of threads makes it really hard for the poster to have an umotivated opinion accepted at face value.


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## kgdrum (Jul 4, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Wed 04 Jul said:


> Peter Alexander @ Wed Jul 04 said:
> 
> 
> > noiseboyuk @ Wed Jul 04 said:
> ...





the market has changed , 5 or 6 years ago Pre-Play,EWQLSO & VSL were the 2 main players.yes there were others like Garriton etc....but these 2 companies ruled & EW was the library more people could afford,partly because of the aggressive upgrades & sale pricing.

Now users have all sorts of quality alternatives to choose from that we couldn't have imagined 5 or 6 years ago.
Combine the economy with all of the competition,add to that the reputation of Play & EW in general and the enormous costs involved in making Orchestral libraries of this nature.
I think it safe to assume EW has realized they will not approach those numbers anymore & that's why Doug Rogers announced they wouldn't be developing these kinds of libraries moving forward.

With all of these contributing factors I suspect 
EW will be happy to sell a fraction of the previous sales numbers.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 4, 2012)

taking toys/going home/hmmpph, who needs those guys anyway.


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## jleckie (Jul 4, 2012)

Personally I think we are approaching a saturation point of libraries. Developers are having to be much more product conscious now as to WHAT they sink there money into.


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## Christian Marcussen (Jul 4, 2012)

Can someone point me to the thread/post/whatever that explains and talks about the Nick/TJ departure. News to me.


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## kitekrazy (Jul 5, 2012)

jleckie @ Wed Jul 04 said:


> Personally I think we are approaching a saturation point of libraries. Developers are having to be much more product conscious now as to WHAT they sink there money into.



I think that goes for the consumer as well. Just look at your hard drive and think about how much you really use.


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## Daryl (Jul 5, 2012)

jleckie @ Thu Jul 05 said:


> Personally I think we are approaching a saturation point of libraries. Developers are having to be much more product conscious now as to WHAT they sink there money into.


I sort of agree. At this point we are only tinkering with the Status Quo that VSL invented 10 or so years ago. I am in the middle of recording a private Strings library, but I even though it will have features that no other developers has, I don't think of it as anything particularly new. It is just something that will suit me.

The one big exception is Sample Modeling, who have taken a totally different approach, and I really do think that they are on the starting line for something new. We have seen other new ideas, such as Synful, not prove to be particularly successful, but SM is the first company that seems to be generating something entirely new. However, because it takes them so long to produce one instrument, I think that the traditional bloated, dinosaur libraries are here to stay for a while longer.

I also think that anyone who contemplates recording a large, orchestral sample library needs to think about the fact that if they don't make their profit within a few years, the market will have moved on to the next new thing. It is a daunting prospect for any developer, IMO.

D


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 5, 2012)

Christian Marcussen @ Thu Jul 05 said:


> Can someone point me to the thread/post/whatever that explains and talks about the Nick/TJ departure. News to me.



That's kinda the point - there isn't one, but their names do not appear anywhere associated with HOW. To clarify the situation, try asking the question at Soundsonline and see what happens!


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## Christian Marcussen (Jul 6, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Thu Jul 05 said:


> Christian Marcussen @ Thu Jul 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Can someone point me to the thread/post/whatever that explains and talks about the Nick/TJ departure. News to me.
> ...



Oh... ok, thanks. I thought there was some prelude about them leaving, and then someone wantedto clarify what that meant in relaton to HWW.


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## jleckie (Jul 6, 2012)

Daryl @ Thu Jul 05 said:


> I sort of agree. At this point we are only tinkering with the Status Quo that VSL invented 10 or so years ago.



I couldn't agree more with this statement.

And good luck with your private library. Sounds like a lot of fun. I can only imagine. Hard work too obvioulsy.


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## Diffusor (Jul 7, 2012)

Well you knew something was up when Nick was publicly warning beta testers about the recent NFR (not for commercial use) stuff.


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