# Planar headphones fanboy club



## Pier (Aug 14, 2022)

So I thought instead of hijacking every headphones thread talking about planar (sorry I'm guilty) maybe we could focus the planar discussion on a dedicated thread?

I've been using the unmodded Fostex T50RP mk3 for about a year now. Honestly I don't think anything beats these headphones for the price. Obviously I haven't tried all headphones around the $150 price but I have much more expensive headphones that aren't even close in terms of detail, depth, low end reproduction, etc.

The first time I used the T50RP I actually didn't like them very much. I had been using the HD280 (also awesome for the price) and the T50RP were shockingly bright. But then I listened to a track someone from the forum sent me and woah the depth. I could hear the effect of the reverbs clearly pushing the sound forward. I think by using the Fostex exclusively I've trained myself to hear the depth which is something I couldn't easily hear before in headphones. In terms of depth it's close to hearing monitors, or at least what I remember.

Anyway, yesterday I replaced the stock pads of the Fostex with this exact model. I bought on Amazon MX but I can't seem to find them on Amazon US.

The comfort has improved 10x. The sound has improved too (mostly). There's even more depth now and more soundstage. The tone is generally the same but there seems to be a deeper more rumbly low end which is great, but also a bump around 150-200Hz which makes things a little bit muddy. Not sure if I'm still getting used to the sound or what.

At some point I will get the Hifiman Sundara just to see how deep this planar rabbit hole takes me. The Audeze LCDX would be the planar endgame but that's way too much to spend on a hobby, probably 😂


----------



## Russell Anderson (Aug 14, 2022)

There are two new Sundara competitors in the Sundara XT or something and the HE- ... you'll have to refresh yourself on them, I believe they're both from Hifiman but I forget the names. Both are like the 2020/2021 Sundara model but with slightly better specs.

I tried the Sundaras and enjoyed them, a lot... I ended up also ordering a pair of DT 1990 Pros (I mainly use headphones due to living situation) to try them against, and I ended up going with the DT 1990s since, to me, they were noticeably less 2D sounding.

To my ears the 1990s also just sounded better by FR, but with correction, the Sundaras were so hard to not hold on to... Planar is really fascinating, the way it hits your ear is unique, it sounds more immediate and crisp and also less percussive (interestingly because the transient response is or is supposed to be amazing, but the sense of "impact" isn't as strong). Dynamic drivers have a smoothness to them which might be hysteresis based or something, I really don't know especially since while the Sundaras seemed more immediate, they also seemed compressed/2D sounding to me, which also to me seemed to be contradictory... I'd have expected more dynamic range out of lighter/faster drivers. It's all pretty interesting but shows you I don't really know what's going on technically.

On studio use, it's hard to say which headphone is going to give you better results. Is pushing for a greater sense of depth in the headphones that flatten your sound going to improve or hurt translation? The way planar drivers tend to improve clarity in the low end and improve clarity in general, will that translate to more accurate moves EQ and anything that introduces IMD, or will that translate to a false sense of clarity and cloudy translation?

Anyway, I gave my Sundaras to my best friend as a surprise gift. They were so cool, even he loves them, and he's not really into any of this stuff.


----------



## Pier (Aug 14, 2022)

Now you got me curious on the 1990s 



Russell Anderson said:


> I tried the Sundaras and enjoyed them, a lot... I ended up also ordering a pair of DT 1990 Pros (I mainly use headphones due to living situation) to try them against, and I ended up going with the DT 1990s since, to me, they were noticeably less 2D sounding.


I mentioned in my previous comment that I tried new pads on the T50RP.

These actually made the sound even more 3D. Unfortunately I feel like the FR is affected too much. Everything feels too hyped compared to the stock pads which have a more neutral sound that I like.

Say... you wouldn't be able to test the Sundara vs a pair of vanilla T50RP?



Russell Anderson said:


> On studio use, it's hard to say which headphone is going to give you better results.


Yeah that's a good point. I don't know.

For example on the high end listen to the triangle that starts around 3:20.



On my HD600 I can hear it, if I look for it, but it's quite subtle and easily masked by other elements in the mix. It's quite evident in all my other headphones but specially on the T50RP.

Also can you hear the sparkling top end of the reverb of the voice? It's obvious in the first sentences when she starts singing or with the sibilant sounds. I'm almost unable to hear it with the HD600. Heck, if I didn't know this track like the back of my hand I would have said the voice reverb is actually a bit dark.

Again on the deeper low end, the Fostex reach noticeably deeper and sharper than the HD600. This is very obvious on Angel by Massive Attack.

It's pretty amazing that I can hear so much more detail with a pair of $150 headphones than with the HD600 which I think I paid about $400 some years ago.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that ignoring depth and soundstage, being able to hear more things must be good for mixing, right?


----------



## gedlig (Aug 14, 2022)

Pier said:


> For example on the high end listen to the triangle that starts around 3:20.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not to hijack the thread, but it's uncanny that the day I remembered the House MD opening song and went to listen to Teardrop maybe 20 times, these examples pop up :D

Edit: more towards the topic, I can hear the triangle on the left with my m40x, but not like super attention grabbing. It's present, but not overly so. The reverb sounds normal to me by my taste. Not that sparkly, probably you would consider it a darker one. The sound stage on the m40x being quite narrow probably doesn't help it much.

I really need to invest more time into trying out open back membrane and planar headphones. Tried the Sundara once (or maybe twice), really liked how wide they sounded, just way too bright with not enough bass for most of the songs I was trying. Most likely has to do with being used to the m40x and some general sensitivity to high frequencies.


----------



## Fidelity (Aug 14, 2022)

gedlig said:


> Not to hijack the thread, but it's uncanny that the day I remembered the House MD opening song and went to listen to Teardrop maybe 20 times, these examples pop up :D
> 
> Edit: more towards the topic, I can hear the triangle on the left with my m40x, but not like super attention grabbing. It's present, but not overly so. The reverb sounds normal to me by my taste. Not that sparkly, probably you would consider it a darker one. The sound stage on the m40x being quite narrow probably doesn't help it much.
> 
> I really need to invest more time into trying out open back membrane and planar headphones. Tried the Sundara once (or maybe twice), really liked how wide they sounded, just way too bright with not enough bass for most of the songs I was trying. Most likely has to do with being used to the m40x and some general sensitivity to high frequencies.


Every day is Massive Attack day. There's "Saturday Come Slow" for weekends, "Future Proof" for shitty mornings, and "Spying Glass" for post-Karen moments. There's even "Flat of the Blade" when you've spent a bit too much on soft synths and feel like it might become your villain backstory.

As for the actual discussion here...you can hear the triangle on Devas. It's clear and easy to pick out if you're listening for it, but doesn't jump out at you. Like your TR50s, the bass is snappy with just a bit of boom. By contrast, that triangle completely inaudible on my Alesis Elevate 5s. The transients are smeared and the reverb used on the vocals is almost muddy. The kicker: you can buy open box Devas for $190, while the monitors cost me ~100 on sale. For less than twice the price, the Devas completely flatten these monitors...


----------



## Sombreuil (Aug 14, 2022)

Pier said:


> I guess the point I'm trying to make is that ignoring depth and soundstage, being able to hear more things must be good for mixing, right?


In theory I'd assume that it's indeed better. One question that I have though. Are you really hearing more details or are some frequencies naturally exaggerated, making you feel like you're hearing things that you wouldn't with the HD600.

To phrase it in a better way, are you sure that you're supposed to hear all those details?


----------



## Pier (Aug 14, 2022)

Fidelity said:


> Every day is Massive Attack day


Exactly!



Sombreuil said:


> To phrase it in a better way, are you sure that you're supposed to hear all those details?


Difficult to say with certainty. I mean unless we ask the original mixing engineer 

If you listen to records from the 70s to this day there are wild opinions on how stuff should sound. Why the 70s? Because multitrack recording wasn't popularized until the 60s and even then mixing was still quite primitive. For example engineers still didn't know how to use stereo very much.

But coming back to Protection, if someone decided to put the triangle percussion there it's because it was meant to be heard, no? I mean it's not like it's an orchestral arrangement with hundreds of tracks playing simultaneously where very often you're not supposed to hear the individual instruments.

And that reverb "sparkle" on the voice? The mixing engineer took great care in setting up the reverb and delay to create that effect. Yeah I think we're meant to be able to at least hear that. Otherwise, again, what's the point of doing it?

I won't deny my headphones could be a bit bright which would exaggerate those things. But then what is neutral? I don't know. The NS10 definitely weren't neutral and there are countless records mixed and mastered on those. In the end it's all very much a matter of fashion, taste, etc.

Of course the technology has changed over the decades and there were limitations but there were decisions made to make the score of 1975 Jaws sound quite dark. The Dark Side of the Moon from 1973 used the same technology and doesn't sound dark at all.


----------



## liquidlino (Aug 14, 2022)

I'd been using HD650 for the last few years. Bought them back in 2013 for listening purposes, and was delighted when I found out they were super popular for music production. Really comfy. But... nothing ever translated when I mixed in them... even with EQ correction.

Then I bought some M50X, much better translation, but not comfortable for longer periods.

Then recently I bought Hifiman HE400i, and it's been a game changer. Haven't been back to the HD650 once since. Comfy, detailed, non-fatiguing. I can listen at much lower levels and still hear everything clearly, even the sub bass. And mixes seem to translate way way better.

On a side note for all the Massive Attack love. Don't sleep on Tricky (solo albums by key Massive Attack member who felt he was being left out of the creative process too much in Massive Attack). My internet handle is from Ponderosa: "Underneath the weeping willow lies a weeping wino, the place where I stay is way too _*liquid lino*_"


----------



## Zanshin (Aug 14, 2022)

Love Massive Attack. Love my planars too (LCD-X). Count me in


----------



## method1 (Aug 14, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> I'd been using HD650 for the last few years. Bought them back in 2013 for listening purposes, and was delighted when I found out they were super popular for music production. Really comfy. But... nothing ever translated when I mixed in them... even with EQ correction.
> 
> Then I bought some M50X, much better translation, but not comfortable for longer periods.
> 
> ...


I wondered about the liquid Lino thing... I figured either you were into Tricky or into flooring 

Big fan of Tricky, very prolific output of great material!

Keen to join the planar club myself, eyeing out the Audeze MM-500


----------



## Pier (Aug 14, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> LCD-X


----------



## Pier (Aug 14, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Don't sleep on Tricky


Yeah I'm a fan of all the Bristol crew. Massive, Tricky, Martina, Portishead, etc.


----------



## Pier (Aug 14, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> And mixes seem to translate way way better.


Do you have mixes you could share done on the Hifiman?


----------



## FireGS (Aug 14, 2022)

I just ordered a pair of LCD-XC and Dekoni Elite Velour pads for them. Time to see what all the fuss is about. Don't tell the wife.


----------



## Pier (Aug 14, 2022)

FireGS said:


> I just ordered a pair of LCD-XC and Dekoni Elite Velour pads for them. Time to see what all the fuss is about. Don't tell the wife.


Woah.

I think you should wait a couple of weeks before changing the pads though. Get used to the sound as much as possible. Otherwise it might be difficult to judge what the pads are doing.


----------



## FireGS (Aug 14, 2022)

Pier said:


> Woah.
> 
> I think you should wait a couple of weeks before changing the pads though. Get used to the sound as much as possible. Otherwise it might be difficult to judge what the pads are doing.


No no, Imma be crazy and just replace *one* pad. What could go wrong? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

But you're right, though I'm not crazy about leather pads, especially in this heat. I produce way more sweat than music.


----------



## ryans (Aug 14, 2022)

I keep coming back to my LCD-X and wondering why I don't love them, everyone else seems to. 

They're great but there's something about the highs that is unsettling, unnatural. It's very subtle but it's always there. Also something off in the upper mids between 3 and 6k.


----------



## FireGS (Aug 14, 2022)

ryans said:


> I keep coming back to my LCD-X and wondering why I don't love them, everyone else seems to.
> 
> They're great but there's something about the highs that is unsettling, unnatural. It's very subtle but it's always there. Also something off in the upper mids between 3 and 6k.


Have you used the Reveal plugin from Audeze yet? Or any system-wide EQ?


----------



## liquidlino (Aug 14, 2022)

FireGS said:


> No no, Imma be crazy and just replace *one* pad. What could go wrong? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> 
> But you're right, though I'm not crazy about leather pads, especially in this heat. I produce way more sweat than music.


Hmm, sadly there's no Dekoni pads version of autoeq, only for regular pads... but you can see from the two graphs on LCD-X what likely difference the pads are going to make:


----------



## Quasar (Aug 14, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> I'd been using HD650 for the last few years. Bought them back in 2013 for listening purposes, and was delighted when I found out they were super popular for music production. Really comfy. But... nothing ever translated when I mixed in them... even with EQ correction.
> 
> Then I bought some M50X, much better translation, but not comfortable for longer periods.
> 
> ...


Interesting. I geeked-out on headphones last year to find a pair of open-backs to use with CanOpener and escape from the M50x (which I found to be uncomfortable as well as artificially and irritatingly bass heavy), and window shopped quite a few planars, but ended up with HD660s. Hifiman scared me off because of recurring complaints indicating unreliable QC, but I had been considering both the 400i and the Sundara. The Audeze line really interests me, the LCD-X, or the new MM-500, but wow those are pricey...

Online, of course, it's impossible to learn anything about headphones except specs and other peoples' opinions, and to this day I have never had a pair of planar magnetic headphones on my ears. One day I would like to get a first-hand sense of what the fuss is about, especially in terms of supposed transient clarity and better extension in the bass frequencies.


----------



## FireGS (Aug 14, 2022)

Quasar said:


> to this day I have never had a pair of planar magnetic headphones on my ears. One day I would like to get a first-hand sense of what the fuss is about, especially in terms of supposed transient clarity and better extension in the bass frequencies.


Ill report back. Going from DT-770 80ohms to LCD-XCs.


----------



## liquidlino (Aug 14, 2022)

Quasar said:


> Interesting. I geeked-out on headphones last year to find a pair of open-backs to use with CanOpener and escape from the M50x (which I found to be uncomfortable as well as artificially and irritatingly bass heavy), and window shopped quite a few planars, but ended up with HD660s. Hifiman scared me off because of recurring complaints indicating unreliable QC, but I had been considering both the 400i and the Sundara. The Audeze line really interests me, the LCD-X, or the new MM-500, but wow those are pricey...
> 
> Online, of course, it's impossible to learn anything about headphones except specs and other peoples' opinions, and to this day I have never had a pair of planar magnetic headphones on my ears. One day I would like to get a first-hand sense of what the fuss is about, especially in terms of supposed transient clarity and better extension in the bass frequencies.


That's exactly where I was at, never heard planar, didn't want to sink big dollars and be disappointed. For the money (AUD200) the 400i are superb. Can't really see any QC issues with mine, they seem just as well made as the hd650. 

The other thing I did, just this weekend, I upgraded from 16gb to 64gb. Man, night and day difference. Ram and headphones two best things I've bought this year.


----------



## Pier (Aug 14, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Can't really see any QC issues with mine


I'm not sure but I seem to remember the QC issues were about people complaining about different units not sounding the same?


----------



## liquidlino (Aug 14, 2022)

Pier said:


> I'm not sure but I seem to remember the QC issues were about people complaining about different units not sounding the same?


Wow. How many copies of the same headphones are people buying to be able to compare them...???

As always, take whats read on the internet with a pinch of salt. I bet half the complainers never even owned a pair, just some 40 year old in his parents basement with cheeto stains down his tshirt.


----------



## FireGS (Aug 14, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> just some **30* year old in his parents basement with cheeto stains down his tshirt.


I feel seen.


----------



## Vlzmusic (Aug 15, 2022)

I've added HE5XX to my regular 1990 PRO. They make a good couple for different perspective listening, cause HE5XX has wildly different depth perception, also lacking the high frequency hike 1990 has. Of course its a different price range, and probably cannot rival the overal quality of 1990 PRO, but it does sound "different"- I assume its the planar thingie going on.


----------



## FireGS (Aug 15, 2022)

Got my shipping notification. I heard the LCDs were big and heavy, but this is ridiculous.


----------



## Pier (Aug 15, 2022)

FireGS said:


> Got my shipping notification. I heard the LCDs were big and heavy, but this is ridiculous.


You're going to need a cervical collar too 😂


----------



## FireGS (Aug 15, 2022)

Pier said:


> You're going to need a cervical collar too 😂


....with Dekoni pads on it, naturally.


----------



## gedlig (Aug 15, 2022)

FireGS said:


> Got my shipping notification. I heard the LCDs were big and heavy, but this is ridiculous.


wow you're gonna have a neck suitable for driving an F1 car


----------



## Pier (Aug 15, 2022)

Zeos seems pretty happy with the HE400SE


----------



## ryans (Aug 15, 2022)

FireGS said:


> Have you used the Reveal plugin from Audeze yet? Or any system-wide EQ?


No, I don't like using EQ unless something is really really off. I should try the Reveal plugin though.


----------



## FireGS (Aug 15, 2022)

ryans said:


> No, I don't like using EQ unless something is really really off. I should try the Reveal plugin though.


From what I can tell, that's basically what the Reveal plugin does, it's an EQ. Be sure to grab the Legacy (free) version 1.5.0 from their site.


----------



## Quasar (Aug 17, 2022)

FireGS said:


> Got my shipping notification. I heard the LCDs were big and heavy, but this is ridiculous.


Yup. Even forgetting the price of these (not that I can do that LOL) the bulkiness is definitely a concern. Some people report that the weight is distributed in such a way that it's still a comfortable experience, others not so much... 

...Plus, you're getting the closed version, which I guess is bound to add a bit of heft. For this sort of thing, I am only interested in the open backs. Good luck with these, and let us know!


----------



## Quasar (Aug 17, 2022)

ryans said:


> No, I don't like using EQ unless something is really really off. I should try the Reveal plugin though.


I don't have any interest in fancy room calibration stuff at all, but do use a ProQ3 curve for flattening + CanOpener for L/R crossover, the idea being to both create a neutral response and a semblance of the nearfield monitor experience, the open back design assisting in creating a sense of 3D space.

Partially out of necessity, I'm choosing to believe that one _can _mix successfully on headphones, and believe understanding the sonic signature of your equipment is more important than the equipment itself. At least up to a point, because, obviously, you want to be able to hear the details across the spectrum as clearly as possible.


----------



## method1 (Aug 17, 2022)

Reserved a pair of MM-500 - luckily going to get a chance to compare them against some others I'm interested in including LCD-X and Heddphones (not planar though, tsk tsk) quite interested to see what all the hype is about!


----------



## BassClef (Aug 17, 2022)

…very interested in the new MM-500… per Chris at Audeze… same diaphragm and magnet arrangement as in the LCD-X but in a light weight and less resonate housing similar to the LCD-5… then a bunch of fine tuning and tweaks to meet the requirements of Manny Marroquin, giving him “everything he wanted.”


----------



## Pier (Aug 17, 2022)

So I tried a new set of pads on my T50RP and it was a disaster. The pads were these https://www.amazon.com/M30-M40-M40X-M50-M50X/dp/B07T7W2Q15 (Defean gray flannel). I struggled for like 15 mins to put them and the sound was horrible. 0 stars.

Off topic but... how do you pronounce Audeze? I saw a YT video the other day and the person pronounced it like "odyssey" which surprised me. I've alway read it more like "oh-these".


----------



## gedlig (Aug 17, 2022)

I don't know how it's supposed to be pronounced, so I just read it with my native pronunciation, which would be something close to ow-dehzeh (english is a terrible language to try explain "foreign" pronunciation via text). Basically if you selected romanian in google translate, just with the accent on de


----------



## method1 (Aug 17, 2022)

au-de-zee


----------



## liquidlino (Aug 17, 2022)

Pier said:


> So I tried a new set of pads on my T50RP and it was a disaster. The pads were these https://www.amazon.com/M30-M40-M40X-M50-M50X/dp/B07T7W2Q15 (Defean gray flannel). I struggled for like 15 mins to put them and the sound was horrible. 0 stars.
> 
> Off topic but... how do you pronounce Audeze? I saw a YT video the other day and the person pronounced it like "odyssey" which surprised me. I've alway read it more like "oh-these".


I've always read it "aww-dees". 

Is there an auto eq for those phones with those pads? You could send them to oratory for measuring perhaps?


----------



## method1 (Aug 17, 2022)

CNN went with au-de-zee - and we all know how reliable they are.


----------



## Pier (Aug 17, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Is there an auto eq for those phones with those pads? You could send them to oratory for measuring perhaps?


Yeah Oratory has some EQ curves for the stock T50RP to reach the Harman curve. Tried them at first but it was too much for me. I modified them and finally ended up going vanilla.

I really don't understand the logic with EQ curves and the Harman curve for mixing, mastering, and general production work.

My understanding is that, statistically, the majority of people prefer speakers/headphones that sound like the Harman curve. IIRC that's how they got to that curve, by asking people what they preferred. It makes sense that one would want the headphones response to be as close to Harman as possible when listening music for pleasure, right? That's like when enabling bass boosting on those 90s boom boxes.

So if the Oratory curves tell me to add say 7db to the low end, now the low end will be greatly exaggerated but won't my perception of the low end be artificially inflated? Also the Harman curve is quite V shaped so what about the mids?

I feel that in the end, it all comes down to listening to a lot of music with a particular response (Harman, neutral, etc) and then understanding how that response translates to other systems.


----------



## method1 (Aug 26, 2022)

I went with the Au-d'-zee MM-500.
Actually blown away.


(that I spent that much on headphones)


They also sound amazing, wow.


----------



## Pier (Aug 26, 2022)

method1 said:


> They also sound amazing, wow.


Well... go on....


----------



## BassClef (Aug 26, 2022)

method1 said:


> I went with the Au-d'-zee MM-500.
> Actually blown away.
> 
> 
> ...


I'm considering these. I'm in a small (13X13 foot) untreated dual purpose room, and will not likely spend much on better speakers (currently Focal Alpha 65s) or treatments. So I am looking at "best use" cans... currently having Sennheiser HD280Pro, HD650 and Beyerdynamic DT880Pro. Do you hear any weakness in the MM-500 yet?


----------



## Pier (Aug 26, 2022)

BassClef said:


> I'm considering these. I'm in a small (13X13 foot) untreated dual purpose room, and will not likely spend much on better speakers (currently Focal Alpha 65s) or treatments. So I am looking at "best use" cans... currently having Sennheiser HD280Pro, HD650 and Beyerdynamic DT880Pro. Do you hear any weakness in the MM-500 yet?


Before dropping $1,700 on the MM500 may I recommend you to first drop $160 on the Fostex T50RP?

I'm sure the Audeze are way better than the Fostex but some people just don't like the planar sound. It would be a bummer to get the MM500 and decide you don't like it.

I have the HD280 Pro, the HD600, and the DT990 Pro. Personally I now find the T50RP to be superior than all of those but it took me a while to "get it".


----------



## BassClef (Aug 26, 2022)

Pier said:


> Before dropping $1,700 on the MM500 may I recommend you to first drop $160 on the Fostex T50RP?
> 
> I'm sure the Audeze are way better than the Fostex but some people just don't like the planar sound. It would be a bummer to get the MM500 and decide you don't like it.
> 
> I have the HD280 Pro, the HD600, and the DT990 Pro. Personally I now find the T50RP to be superior than all of those but it took me a while to "get it".


Point well taken, as I have NEVER heard a pair of planar magnetic cans. The good news is that I can get them with a 30 day return policy!


----------



## Pier (Aug 26, 2022)

BassClef said:


> Point well taken, as I have NEVER heard a pair of planar magnetic cans. The good news is that I can get them with a 30 day return policy!


Then go for it!


----------



## method1 (Aug 26, 2022)

Pier said:


> Well... go on....


Width, depth, girth, 3D-ness, Marroquinesque, soundstage, resolution, custard & other headphone review adjectives.

For context, I have focal spirit pros (held together with duct tape), HD6XX & Slate VSX.
I was looking for at least a better experience than VSX to drop this kind of cash, and these are the first planars I've owned.

To me they feel just like listening in my studio, except better! Especially the low end which is always an issue in small rooms. The MMs have an amazing clarity with the lows sounding extremely defined with no rumble. I listened to a bunch of reference stuff I thought I knew like the back of my hand and picked out details I hadn't heard before!

I have Amphion One18 with the BaseOne25, and spent a looooong time treating my room & getting it to +-6db across the freq response with a fairly low RT. 

All this said, I've yet to mix on them & check translation, so final thoughts are pending, but just for listening on, a real pleasure.


----------



## Pier (Aug 26, 2022)

method1 said:


> To me they feel just like listening in my studio, except better! Especially the low end which is always an issue in small rooms.


Yeah this is exactly my impression with the only planar I've used. It's an experience close to using monitors but better since there are no room issues. Specially the low end is so clean and "sharp".



method1 said:


> All this said, I've yet to mix on them & check translation, so final thoughts are pending, but just for listening on, a real pleasure.


Do let us know how that goes!


----------



## BassClef (Aug 26, 2022)

method1... 

Thanks so much for the quick mini-review. About the soundstage and 3-D qualities your mentioned. Do feel the need for any sort of headphone plugins with the MM-500s, like Canopener for crosstalk, to Sonarworks for EQ?


----------



## method1 (Aug 26, 2022)

BassClef said:


> method1...
> 
> Thanks so much for the quick mini-review. About the soundstage and 3-D qualities your mentioned. Do feel the need for any sort of headphone plugins with the MM-500s, like Canopener for crosstalk, to Sonarworks for EQ?


Too soon to tell, but because these are so new, there aren't any correction curves etc available in any of the software, which I actually am pleased about, since I won't be tempted to fiddle.

That said, unlike any of the other cans I own, which definitely do benefit from a bit of corrective intervention & I prefer using them that way, the MMs sound great as-is. So my initial thought is that these do not need any sort of correction. Crosstalk is a different issue but I do have a really nice monitor setup so I'm not too bothered about that.


----------



## method1 (Aug 26, 2022)

Try some of these on your planars, if you're into this kind of thing


----------



## Quasar (Aug 26, 2022)

method1 said:


> Width, depth, girth, 3D-ness, Marroquinesque, soundstage, resolution, custard & other headphone review adjectives.
> 
> For context, I have focal spirit pros (held together with duct tape), HD6XX & Slate VSX.
> I was looking for at least a better experience than VSX to drop this kind of cash, and these are the first planars I've owned.
> ...


Thanks for the first impression review! 

Are they comfortable to wear for extended periods? According to the spec sheets, the MMs weigh 528g, less than the LCD-X's 612g, but still quite hefty compared to my 660s at 272g, or virtually any dynamic driver cans for that matter. Even Pier's Fostex planars weigh-in at only 315g, so I wonder how this added weight manages in real-world use.


----------



## method1 (Aug 26, 2022)

Quasar said:


> Thanks for the first impression review!
> 
> Are they comfortable to wear for extended periods? According to the spec sheets, the MMs weigh 528g, less than the LCD-X's 612g, but still quite hefty compared to my 660s at 272g, or virtually any dynamic driver cans for that matter. Even Pier's Fostex planars weigh-in at only 315g, so I wonder how this added weight manages in real-world use.


Hasn't been an issue for me so far, been wearing them most of the day. Pretty comfy.


----------



## Quasar (Aug 26, 2022)

Pier said:


> Before dropping $1,700 on the MM500 may I recommend you to first drop $160 on the Fostex T50RP?
> 
> I'm sure the Audeze are way better than the Fostex but some people just don't like the planar sound. It would be a bummer to get the MM500 and decide you don't like it.
> 
> I have the HD280 Pro, the HD600, and the DT990 Pro. Personally I now find the T50RP to be superior than all of those but it took me a while to "get it".


I remember when you first got these and I'm glad you still like them now that the novelty has worn off. I still toy with the idea of getting these or the fully open T20RP, or perhaps try one of the relatively afdfordable Drop + HIFIMAN planars:









Drop + HIFIMAN HE5XX Planar Magnetic Headphones Details | Audiophile | Headphones | Open Back Headphones


Discover 811 Community discussions, tips, and reviews on Drop + HIFIMAN HE5XX Planar Magnetic Headphones from the Audiophile enthusiast community on Drop.




drop.com


----------



## BassClef (Sep 2, 2022)

LCD-X just arrived! I'm wondering if the factory burn-in will be enough for immediate evaluation. I have 30 days to keep or return them!


----------



## liquidlino (Sep 2, 2022)

BassClef said:


> LCD-X just arrived! I'm wondering if the factory burn-in will be enough for immediate evaluation. I have 30 days to keep or return them!


No such thing as burn in. Been disproven scientifically many times. It's a psychological effect, not a physical one. Manufacturers want you to give the product sufficient time to get used to the new sound signature and not just return it after 30 mins.


----------



## BassClef (Sep 2, 2022)

My comment was actually ”toung in cheeck” and I tend to agree with you. Especially ideas like “breaking in” speaker and headphone cables! At least there is some what of a logical rationale for speakers and headphones with vibrating membranes needing to “loosen up”… sort of like a good pair of leather shoes! But I’m still skeptical.


----------



## Pier (Sep 2, 2022)

BassClef said:


> My comment was actually ”toung in cheeck” and I tend to agree with you. Especially ideas like “breaking in” speaker and headphone cables! At least there is some what of a logical rationale for speakers and headphones with vibrating membranes needing to “loosen up”… sort of like a good pair of leather shoes! But I’m still skeptical.


Yeah yeah yeah but what about those LCDX? 😂


----------



## liquidlino (Sep 2, 2022)

BassClef said:


> My comment was actually ”toung in cheeck” and I tend to agree with you. Especially ideas like “breaking in” speaker and headphone cables! At least there is some what of a logical rationale for speakers and headphones with vibrating membranes needing to “loosen up”… sort of like a good pair of leather shoes! But I’m still skeptical.


I mean, imagine how awful it would be if your headphones kept changing over time. Why would they magically stop at the perfect degredation? Leather shoes eventually wear out. Speakers and headphones don't. Well, except the glue eventually goes after about 40 years. Anyway, enjoy the LCD!


----------



## Quasar (Sep 2, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> No such thing as burn in. Been disproven scientifically many times. It's a psychological effect, not a physical one. Manufacturers want you to give the product sufficient time to get used to the new sound signature and not just return it after 30 mins.


I've heard credible sources claim the validity of both sides of this debate, and I'm not enough of a believer in empiricism to dismiss the abundant anecdotal evidence for burn-in out of hand.


----------



## liquidlino (Sep 2, 2022)

Quasar said:


> I've heard credible sources claim the validity of both sides of this debate, and I'm not enough of a believer in empiricism to dismiss the abundant anecdotal evidence for burn-in out of hand.


Now. I've got some lovely ready factory burned in zero oxygen silver speaker cable to sell you. A snip at $1,000 a metre. Or, have the unobtanium version for just 2,000 a metre, this one applies a dynamic eq effect that only true audio connosiuers can hear. You're a true connoisseur, right? 

Nearly all audiophile myths fail blind a/b tests, especially the burn in myth.


----------



## BassClef (Sep 2, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Now. I've got some lovely ready factory burned in zero oxygen silver speaker cable to sell you. A snip at $1,000 a metre. Or, have the unobtanium version for just 2,000 a metre, this one applies a dynamic eq effect that only true audio connosiuers can hear. You're a true connoisseur, right?
> 
> Nearly all audiophile myths fail blind a/b tests, especially the burn in myth.


Interesting... I've watched a lot of YouTube videos while researching for new cans. They Speak with such authority of the most minute details in sound characteristics, especially comparing different models. But you NEVER see them participate in a blind test comparing those models.


----------



## liquidlino (Sep 2, 2022)

BassClef said:


> Interesting... I've watched a lot of YouTube videos while researching for new cans. They Speak with such authority of the most minute details in sound characteristics, especially comparing different models. But you NEVER see them participate in a blind test comparing those models.


When your entire business model is predicated on myths or things that don't matter that would be shattered by any semblance of scientific testing, the last thing you're going to do is scientific testing. I'm not even talking about measurements here, simple A/B testing is sufficient.

Amps are a classic one. Basically, nearly all modern power amplifiers are essentially transparent and similar performing (terrible products aside, and ignoring deliberate FX such as tube amps). And yet audiophile reviewers will claim they can hear "time domain" differences and "tone" differences. A/B test power amps, no one can tell the difference, ever. That's why even top monitors like Genelec have fairly cheap Class D amps in them these days - the power/heat/reliability performance is much more important than undetectable sonic differences.


----------



## method1 (Sep 2, 2022)

MM-500 report back.
So far I love 'em - been using them exclusively, mix translation is good so far, no obvious issues, they do seem a bit brighter than my Amphions so I'm still getting used to that.

Otherwise, after the break-in period, I was able to hear a gnat landing on the sidestick in Massive Attack's "Teardrop" which I'd never noticed before!


----------



## BassClef (Sep 2, 2022)

method1 said:


> MM-500 report back.
> So far I love 'em - been using them exclusively, mix translation is good so far, no obvious issues, they do seem a bit brighter than my Amphions so I'm still getting used to that.
> 
> Otherwise, after the break-in period, I was able to hear a gnat landing on the sidestick in Massive Attack's "Teardrop" which I'd never noticed before!


I came realy close to getting the new MM-500 but it's early in the cycle and there were few good reviews, much less comparisons with the 2021 LCD-X. I'd love to compare them side-by-side but had no chance to do so. I'm now burning in my LCD-X... ON MY HEAD!


----------



## Russell Anderson (Sep 2, 2022)

method1 said:


> I was able to hear a gnat landing on the sidestick in Massive Attack's "Teardrop" which I'd never noticed before!


That was my friend Jason! I remember him talking about that show for awhile. Too bad he's gone, now, gnats' life cycle is only 1-2 weeks. I'll remember you, little buddy. So much spirit... such a tiny body.


----------



## BassClef (Sep 3, 2022)

Looks like I'm going to be returning the LCD-X. The headband is so wide that it messes up my hair!

Actually I like them very much so far. The weight bothered me right away. Then, I played with the headband adjustment to get the weigh more equally distributed across my head, and they are better. You feel the weight most when bending your head down as in playing a keyboard.

Also interesting is the noticeably different sound with my two sources. With my Fiio K5Pro dac/amp, the cans have a rather veiled top end... too much for my taste, making them seem rather dull. They are better on my Focusrite Clarett2PreUSB audio interface.


----------



## Pier (Sep 5, 2022)

I was reading this review of the Sundara 2021 at DIY Audio Heaven:

https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/hifiman/sundara-2021/

The author sells some passive filters that are just adaptors added to the cable which can reduce the treble peak.

Green is with the filter.






He sells all sort of passive filters customized for a diverse number of headphones.

https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/passive-filters/


----------



## BassClef (Sep 5, 2022)

OK... let"s talk about the really low impedance of some planar magnetic cans, like the 20 Ohm rating of my new LCX-X. I gave up my "audiophile" title many, many years ago but do still remember some of the electronics "speak" if you will. As mentioned above, I currently have two reasonable choices for driving these cans... Focusrite Clarett2PreUSB audio interfaced my Fiio K5Pro which does have a 3-position gain selector. Now both of these units put out enough power to drive any cans (like my 600ohm Beyer DT880Pro), but with the LCD-X, I can barely go above 9 o'clock on the volume dial. I know that some amps do not give you peak performance at low volume settings and some suffer from left/right channel balance issues at lower power. I remember the old 11 to 1 o'clock" rule. Now aside from working in Logic on music production, I can simply set my volume knob at straight up 12 o'clock and turn down the volume in the player, like Apple Music or Spotify. So do any of you planar magnetic "Fan Boys" have this issue, and if so, do you consider it a problem? I plan to fire off a support question to Audeze for their thoughts on this issue. Inquiring minds......


----------



## Pier (Sep 5, 2022)

For reference here are the latest measurements by Julian Krause of the headphones amp of multiple interfaces:


----------



## Pier (Sep 5, 2022)

@BassClef it's not an issue for me personally.

When working on my DAW the headphones amp of my Motu M4 is between 9 and 12 o clock depending on what I'm doing. I very rarely go above 12, typically it's around 10.

When listening to final mastered material on the M4, I tend to lower the digital gain in the player. Not because of an audio quality concerns with the amp itself... but because I'm doing something in my DAW and then open a Youtube video or a track on Spotify and I forget to lower the analog gain... it can get super loud and I care about my ears. Digital players typically remember the gain you set up.


----------



## Pier (Sep 6, 2022)

@BassClef so how are these LCD-X doing?


----------



## BassClef (Sep 6, 2022)

1) The LCD-X sound great... really enjoying them. I heard back fromAudeze on my concerns about "too much"power from amps for their 20 ohm resistance rating. They said that they have not found that to be a problem and can not discern any degradation of sound when being driven by a high powered amp with the volume control down around 9 o'clock. They did say that with some units there might actually be a small "bit loss" but that it is imperceptible. They suggested just turning down the volume inside whatever media player I am using. 

2) They sent me the actual frequency response graph for my actual LCD-X. They record these for each pair and send them on request... attached.

3) It appears that I have broken one of the mini XLRs at the end of the cable. It would not disengage from the headphone socket when pushing the release button and pulling. Rather, it would just slip out maybe 1/16th of an inch and stop there. So I gave it a real hard pull. It came out but It looks like I broke one side of the tiny spring loaded parts that hold the mini XLR in the socket. But it is now working OK in and out with the damaged XLR.


----------



## Zanshin (Sep 6, 2022)

BassClef said:


> 2) They sent me the actual frequency response graph for my actual LCD-X. They record these for each pair and send them on request... attached.


Dang I didn't know they did that, I may have to request mine!

The cable is my one complaint. My first stopped working almost immediately (cold solder joint?). I'd like something more robust than the stock but don't want to pay hundreds for it.


----------



## BassClef (Sep 8, 2022)

Fateful Day!

I am returning the LCD-X. As reported above, one tiny piece of the cable (locking mechanism inside the mini-XLR) is broken, and the right side headband adjustment rod is too loose. I asked Audeze if they could just send me those inexpensive replacement parts which can easily and quickly swapped, but they would not, insisting that I return the LCD-X to the merchant, and then wait for a replacement, if in stock. They do not want to address my minor issues directly unless I have already passed the 30 return privilege period that vendor offers.

Also I quickly became accustomed to the LCD-X weight, finding them reasonably comfortable in all but one important way. When sitting upright in my chair and playing the keyboard, I have to look down at my hands. (not much of a keyboard player) Every time I bend my head down, the LCD-X slips forward. If I move my head very slowly, I could keep them still, but then as soon as I quickly turn my head to see my left or right had, they would slip. This became very annoying.

Though quite pleased with the sound, and combining the weight and customer service issues, I decided to return them and possibly search for an alternative. Perhaps a lighter Planar (HiFiMan Arya) or back to the land of Dynamic models. (Focal Clear MG Pro) Who knows where the journey will end up.

At any rate, I can not take this too seriously. After all it is just a hobby!


----------



## Quasar (Sep 8, 2022)

BassClef said:


> Fateful Day!
> 
> I am returning the LCD-X. As reported above, one tiny piece of the cable (locking mechanism inside the mini-XLR) is broken, and the right side headband adjustment rod is too loose. I asked Audeze if they could just send me those inexpensive replacement parts which can easily and quickly swapped, but they would not, insisting that I return the LCD-X to the merchant, and then wait for a replacement, if in stock. They do not want to address my minor issues directly unless I have already passed the 30 return privilege period that vendor offers.
> 
> ...


If it's any consolation, the fact that you need to return them makes me feel better about not being able to afford them. I wouldn't want a pair of phones that slipped when I moved my head, regardless of sonic character.


----------



## BassClef (Sep 9, 2022)

Has anyone tried the Hifiman Arya? It’s right near the LCD-X in price.


----------



## bfreepro (Sep 21, 2022)

BassClef said:


> Has anyone tried the Hifiman Arya? It’s right near the LCD-X in price.


I just tried them today!


----------



## bfreepro (Dec 6, 2022)

BassClef said:


> Has anyone tried the Hifiman Arya? It’s right near the LCD-X in price.


Forgot about this thread for a bit but remembered I commented and had to search for it again.
I actually bought the LCD X and used it for a couple days but the comfort was unbearably awful. I donno if the fact I wear glasses affects the comfort but my ears pressed against the drivers and I tried to adjust and live with it but… man they were uncomfortable. The sound is amazing though. I returned them for the Aryas.

The Aryas are significantly more comfortable and have a VERY different presentation. The Aryas have a very heady/ethereal sound, with a massive sense of space, while the LCD X are much more impactful, and sound downright claustrophobic by comparison.

The sound of the LCD X literally cuts through right in my head and has so much body and impact, they do something magical with recreating the actual body and weight of the instruments. A very thick, rich sound for everything, very chunky.

The Aryas do something magical with space and layers, it feels like the real instruments are playing in a big room in front of you and all around you, even above and behind you, while the LCD is like someone is playing that instrument directly into my brain lol.

The Mr Speakers/Dan Clark Audio Ether Flow 1.1 really, really impressed me as well. It had a bigger soundstage than the LCD x but also had a similar sense of body and impact to the sound. Kind of in between both.

The lcd 3 was insaaaane and like a combo of them all, but again comfort (and budget for this one haha) was an issue. The sound was phenomenal and the best balance of all of them.

Lcd x are amazing but they actually are far from neutral out of the box, even though they’re advertised as reference cans. The Aryas are actually more neutral and flat as far as frequency response. They’re both equally detailed, but they present those details in such different ways.

I actually bid on a pair of LCD GX (their “gaming headset”) because it’s way lighter and has similar tech as both the lcd x and lcd 4. If they made lcd lighter and more comfortable, I would snag a new pair in a heartbeat. For now I’ve got my eye on the Ether Flows…


----------



## Yearofthegoat (Dec 12, 2022)

I'm looking for new open-backed headphones and am considering planars, but what's the truth about impedance with planars? Does it really not matter?

I have 2 audio interfaces with very different output impedances (RME, 2ohms, Zoom U-44, 30ohms). I was looking at headphones with 150+ impedance, so I could use the Zoom okay (@5x+).

For example, the Hifiman HE400SE are 25ohms, so okay for my RME, but received wisdom says not for the Zoom. Does it actually matter?


----------



## Lunatique (Dec 14, 2022)

Yearofthegoat said:


> I'm looking for new open-backed headphones and am considering planars, but what's the truth about impedance with planars? Does it really not matter?
> 
> I have 2 audio interfaces with very different output impedances (RME, 2ohms, Zoom U-44, 30ohms). I was looking at headphones with 150+ impedance, so I could use the Zoom okay (@5x+).
> 
> For example, the Hifiman HE400SE are 25ohms, so okay for my RME, but received wisdom says not for the Zoom. Does it actually matter?


If your headphones and your headphone amps' impedance don't match, then you'll have problems with balanced frequency response, as the current delivered to your headphones will not drive it to produce all frequencies accurately.


----------



## Lunatique (Dec 14, 2022)

I went through dynamic, electrostatic, and planar headphones in the last 15 years, and have bought/sold tens of thousands of dollars worth of headphone gear. I personally like planar more because of how well they reproduce sub-bass information. My current main headphones is an Aeon Flow. It replaced my LCD-2 because the LCD series is just not comfortable to wear (although the latest models seem to have been addressing that often complained about issue). The Aeon Flow is ridiculously comfortable and sounds great. Maybe not as balanced as the LCD-2, but I EQ all my headphone for maximum accuracy anyway.


----------



## bfreepro (Dec 14, 2022)

Lunatique said:


> I went through dynamic, electrostatic, and planar headphones in the last 15 years, and have bought/sold tens of thousands of dollars worth of headphone gear. I personally like planar more because of how well they reproduce sub-bass information. My current main headphones is an Aeon Flow. It replaced my LCD-2 because the LCD series is just not comfortable to wear (although the latest models seem to have been addressing that often complained about issue). The Aeon Flow is ridiculously comfortable and sounds great. Maybe not as balanced as the LCD-2, but I EQ all my headphone for maximum accuracy anyway.


Yeah those LCDs are some of the least comfortable headphones I’ve ever worn. I do like DCA/mrspeakers, haven’t tried the Aeon but have a pair of Ether CX on the way


----------



## Quasar (Dec 14, 2022)

Lunatique said:


> ...My current main headphones is an Aeon Flow....


I wonder how the Drop version of these compare? And relatively affordable compared to some of the planars discussed here, at $399:









Drop + Dan Clark Audio Aeon Open X Headphones | Open-Back Audiophile Headphones


These Drop exclusive Dan Clark Headphones deliver top notch audio quality. The open-back Aeon Open X headphones utilize Planar Magnetic drivers for an experience you won't forget.




drop.com


----------



## Pier (Dec 14, 2022)

Lunatique said:


> I went through dynamic, electrostatic, and planar headphones in the last 15 years, and have bought/sold tens of thousands of dollars worth of headphone gear. I personally like planar more because of how well they reproduce sub-bass information. My current main headphones is an Aeon Flow. It replaced my LCD-2 because the LCD series is just not comfortable to wear (although the latest models seem to have been addressing that often complained about issue). The Aeon Flow is ridiculously comfortable and sounds great. Maybe not as balanced as the LCD-2, but I EQ all my headphone for maximum accuracy anyway.


What open planar headphones would you recommend under $1000? For general production work and some occasional mixing but nothing serious.

I've been considering the Sundara but maybe there's something better for that budget?

I've been quite happy with the T50RP (specially for the price) but have been considering for while investing on some better planar headphones.


----------



## Yearofthegoat (Dec 14, 2022)

Lunatique said:


> If your headphones and your headphone amps' impedance don't match, then you'll have problems with balanced frequency response, as the current delivered to your headphones will not drive it to produce all frequencies accurately.


Thanks. That's counter to the usual '5-8x' impedance rule of thumb. Or is exact matching only a requirement for planars?

I can't recall seeing any 2ohm headphones, though. At least not within my budget!


----------



## woodslanding (Dec 14, 2022)

Well, since this thread exists....

It's been probably five years, but a while back I was looking at the best phones I could get for around $400, and settled on OPPO's, which are planars.

Anybody else use them? They've worked great for me, seem pretty flat and have good imaging, but I wonder how they stack up to newer units in the same price range....


----------



## Quasar (Dec 14, 2022)

Pier said:


> I've been quite happy with the T50RP (specially for the price) but have been considering for while investing on some better planar headphones.


Slightly OT, but I always wonder about any commodity that has versions ranging from very cheap to very expensive said to be good "for the price", because this doesn't mean anything unless you already have an awareness of where the so-called sweet spot is for you. Otherwise, how can you possibly know whether or not "good for the price" is good enough?

With planar magnetic headphones, I can't get a sense from reading reviews where the sweet spot is. When you say that you're happy with the Fostex but consider getting something better, does this mean the money you spent on them would have been better applied toward a higher-end model? Or does it mean that you're happy with them and it was money well spent? And what does "better" mean, especially if you're happy with them? What do the T50RPs lack?

I was watching a review of an entry-level camera and the reviewer talked about how great the flip-out LCD screen was. Later I saw the same guy review an expensive camera and he said the LCD wasn't great, though it was still much better than the one on the entry-level model. Does this mean the entry-level screen is great if you're poor but sucks if you're rich? This makes no sense because it's the same screen and functions however it does regardless.

In reality, "for the price" exists only up to the point of purchase. After that, it's just the experience of using it, and you're either happy with a product's features, reliability & performance or you're not. I wish there was a way to "try on" headphones and studio monitors online and hear how they sound, but - obviously - there is not, so I still have no clue about planars.


----------



## Lunatique (Dec 14, 2022)

Quasar said:


> I wonder how the Drop version of these compare? And relatively affordable compared to some of the planars discussed here, at $399:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You'll want to search for threads about it on head-fi.org. That is the place to get super nerdy about headphones. 



Pier said:


> What open planar headphones would you recommend under $1000? For general production work and some occasional mixing but nothing serious.
> 
> I've been considering the Sundara but maybe there's something better for that budget?
> 
> I've been quite happy with the T50RP (specially for the price) but have been considering for while investing on some better planar headphones.


The headphone market is moving at a neck-break pace, and it feels like every month there are new models being released. If I were in the market for a new pair of main headphones (for both serious production work and leisurely listening), I might look at what current models Dan Clarke Audio has that's within my budget. Aeon Flow has been updated with newer version and there are other newer models since I got mine. 

Personally, I like Dan Clarke Audio's offerings the most when compared in terms of overall company philosophy/house sound. Audeze's offerings tend to not be very comfortable, especially when wearing for prolonged periods. I haven't tried their newer models and I heard they've made improvements in that area. Hifiman's offerings tend to be a bit light on the sub-bass based on past models I've owned/tested/researched. Dan Clarke gets it right in comfort and sound, which is why I prefer their products. 

No headphones out there achieve perfect accuracy in frequency response, so when I shop for a pair, I look at more than just the frequency response, because I know I'll correct them anyway. Sure, I'll want something that gets close to the ideal sonic signature (similar to the Harmon Target Response Curve, but a bit less strident) just so that any correction I do won't be forcing the drivers out of the range of their capabilities and make them struggle too hard and distort. 

I ALWAYS advise anyone who wants the best sound out of their headphones to correc them with EQ. And I prefer to not rely on products like Sonarworks or Tonebooster's Morphit, because they correct the headphone's frequency response assuming you have perfect hearing with no deviation in any frequency bands. That is simply not true for some people, and the only way to make sure you are hearing perfectly accurate response, is to EQ it yourself. For those who want to learn how to do it, I have a comprehensive tutorial about it on head-fi.org: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the...ost-ideal-sound-for-non-professionals.796791/

Yes, it will take you time and effort, but you only have to do it once, and you'll never have to do it again, and will enjoy the most accurate sound your headphones can have for many years to come, not to mention you can take any headphones and correct them to sound like a much more expensive pair (in terms of frequency response). 



Yearofthegoat said:


> Thanks. That's counter to the usual '5-8x' impedance rule of thumb. Or is exact matching only a requirement for planars?
> 
> I can't recall seeing any 2ohm headphones, though. At least not within my budget!


Mismatched impedance will affect not just planar-driver headphones, but all headphones. For example, for a long time, people considered Sennheiser's headphones like the HD650 difficult to drive, and they are dynamic drivers. And by mismatched, I don't mean they have to be exact. As long as you don't exceed the limit of the impedance of your headphone amp, you'll be fine. So under is okay, but not over--that's when you start to get imbalanced frequency response and distortion.


----------



## Yearofthegoat (Dec 14, 2022)

Do you actually mean impedance? Because all my phones so far have impedances significantly over the output impedance of the amps. No distortion - that I can hear, anyway.

I've read the opposite advice on many sites on the web, i.e. that the amp output impedance should definitely be lower than the headphone impedance, and ideally 8x lower.

E.g. http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/headphone-amp-impedance.html?m=0

Anyway, it's clearly important to get phones and amps that play nicely together electrically to avoid issues. I'm just trying to find out whether planars act the same, i.e. does the 8x rule-of-thumb still apply.


----------



## Lunatique (Dec 15, 2022)

Yearofthegoat said:


> Do you actually mean impedance? Because all my phones so far have impedances significantly over the output impedance of the amps. No distortion - that I can hear, anyway.
> 
> I've read the opposite advice on many sites on the web, i.e. that the amp output impedance should definitely be lower than the headphone impedance, and ideally 8x lower.
> 
> ...


Sorry, my answer was a bit confusing since I was talking about two things at once and not separating them properly. When I said you want to be under and not over, I meant in terms of resistance, not actual impedance numbers marked by ohms. That was my bad. When translated into impedance numbers, then yes, the 8x general rule of thumb is correct. My Aeon Flow is 13 ohms, and my Objective O2 amp is 0.54 ohms, so they work well together.


----------



## edhamilton (Dec 15, 2022)

Currently have HE 1000v2 (check out the headphone.com youtube review just a few days ago) - 
and LCD MM's.
Not sure which is going to win out.
HE 1000's are a bit bright. MM's are a bit under on the high end.
HE are more comfortable and lighter and are my fav Hifiman model.
MM's are the closest audeze has come to something that compares to great studio monitors.

My wallet would like me to pick one and stop the quest!


----------



## Yearofthegoat (Dec 15, 2022)

Lunatique said:


> Sorry, my answer was a bit confusing since I was talking about two things at once and not separating them properly. When I said you want to be under and not over, I meant in terms of resistance, not actual impedance numbers marked by ohms. That was my bad. When translated into impedance numbers, then yes, the 8x general rule of thumb is correct. My Aeon Flow is 13 ohms, and my Objective O2 amp is 0.54 ohms, so they work well together.


Righto - that clears things up. Good to know re. the planars. My understanding is that they are flat in terms of frequency response, so the 8x perhaps isn't as important as it is for dynamics, but it's still advisable to have a good multiple then. Thanks again


----------



## Pier (Dec 15, 2022)

Thanks @Lunatique for all the info. That tutorial is terrific with phenomenal track selection and information for testing headphones.

My T50RP didn't do well with the deepest low end but otherwise they did somewhat ok 

Unfortunately Dave Clark headphones cannot be bought in Mexico other than through some shady sellers on Amazon at double the price. Maybe I will travel to LA next year and hopefully will be able to find a pair.

Hifiman is available here locally though. Do you have any experience with the Sundara or Ananda?



Quasar said:


> Slightly OT, but I always wonder about any commodity that has versions ranging from very cheap to very expensive said to be good "for the price", because this doesn't mean anything unless you already have an awareness of where the so-called sweet spot is for you. Otherwise, how can you possibly know whether or not "good for the price" is good enough?


My most expensive headphones are the HD600 which for years I considered to be really good although seriously lacking in treble detail. And then I found the T50RP which were cheap enough that I bought them on a whim just to try this planar thing. Oh boy. These Fostex are IMO superior to the revered HD600 in almost all categories.

So what I meant before is that I'm satisfied with the results I'm getting with the T50RP for general production work. While doing some mixing (for fun) I've identified some issues but I really can't complain given what I paid and the value I'm getting for the price is just fantastic. Just the other day I was complimented by a client about the sound of some stuff I delivered (that he did listen on a high end studio).


----------



## Quasar (Dec 15, 2022)

Pier said:


> Thanks @Lunatique for all the info. That tutorial is terrific with phenomenal track selection and information for testing headphones.
> 
> My T50RP didn't do well with the deepest low end but otherwise they did somewhat ok
> 
> ...


Thanks, it's interesting that in your experience the T50RP blows away your HD600. I currently have the HD660s, which (especially after EQ and the CanOpener plug) is probably, roughly, in the same neighborhood.

So now I'm tempted again to try a planar magnetic, though I definitely want open for mixing, so would lean toward the T20RP (MK3?) or something similar instead of the closed T50RP...

...I admit that the price of the Fostex RP line scared me off a little, not because they're too expensive, but because I'm aware that they're some of the most inexpensive planars one can find, which makes me think it might be wise to move up the food chain a little bit, spending a bit more.

It's also hard to wade through all the audiophile reviews when the primary purpose is for reference rather than pleasure.

Re Audeze, uncomfortable is a deal-breaker even if I could afford them, though the $399 LCD-1 is lighter and rumored to be much more comfortable. Hifiman seems to have a lot of poor build quality anecdotes with their affordable lines... I am going to look more into the Dan Clark Audio options, based on recommendations from this thread, as well as the Drop clone/equivalent.


----------



## Pier (Dec 15, 2022)

Quasar said:


> instead of the closed T50RP


The T50RP are semi open and they behave almost like open ones. Fostex markets them as the more neutral of the three versions.

From Fostex website:



> Offering three types with different sound characteristics; Open (T20RPmk3) for “Deep Bass”, Closed (T40RPmk3) for “Focused Bass” and Semi-Open (T50RPmk3) for “Flat and Clear” sound



There's also the T60RP which are somewhat newer but are more expensive and I've never tried them.

I will say that when I first tried the T50 I didn't like them at all. But I gave them a chance because I heard something that surprised me and now I love them. The brain is funny like this.



Quasar said:


> Thanks, it's interesting that in your experience the T50RP blows away your HD600. I currently have the HD660s, which (especially after EQ and the CanOpener plug) is probably, roughly, in the same neighborhood.


I hadn't used the HD600 in a very long time and I tried them side by side some months ago. It was shocking.

My brain has definitely acclimatized to the T50s but still. Like there's this kind of metallic triangle sound in this Massive Attack track which is clear and present in the T50s but quite soft in the HD600. It's in the left channel and starts around 4:30.


----------



## Lunatique (Dec 15, 2022)

Pier said:


> Do you have any experience with the Sundara or Ananda?
> 
> 
> My most expensive headphones are the HD600 which for years I considered to be really good although seriously lacking in treble detail. And then I found the T50RP which were cheap enough that I bought them on a whim just to try this planar thing. Oh boy. These Fostex are IMO superior to the revered HD600 in almost all categories.


I don't have experience with those specific Hifiman models. If you're going with Hifiman, make sure you check the frequency response measurements for lack of authoritative sub-bass presence, as they're kinda known for that. 

I used to have an HD600 but returned it and got the HD650 instead, since I found the HD600 a tad bright and anemic in the bass. The HD650 fixed those problems (although it has a slight upper-bass bump and some sub-bass roll-off, so it's not perfect either).


----------

