# #MeToo & Female Composers



## josephwmorgan (Dec 13, 2021)

I’m sure everyone has seen https://t.co/PE5kLRTUJT (this Hollywood Reporter article (if not read it now))

https://t.co/PE5kLRTUJT
But it is completely unacceptable to hear the struggles women continue to face in our industry. When reading it I couldn’t help but think, “Nearly every composer I know trolls VI-Control, why can’t that be a space for accountability and open conversation”. I do not want this to devolve into a dramatic rumor mill or *drama zone*, but I do feel we all owe it to our female colleagues to say 

- We stand by you
- The state of our industry in regards to the treatment of women is bullshit 
- We believe you
- It is OKAY to speak up 

Even if people wish to remain anonymous that is okay, but I would like for women in our industry to know there is a place in one of the top forums/websites for composers that their voice can be heard and their stories can be shared. I hope you will share your experiences, but I also hope at the very least that this can be a place for some honest conversations that can help change the ridiculous norms that have come to exist for our composing sisters.


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## Soundbed (Dec 13, 2021)

I got into this with some other (male) member on here, responding to a FB post by someone else (also male) who has written demos most of us have heard, a couple years back. When Native Instruments posted something. I realized after a decent back and forth that changing peoples’ minds was very difficult.

And sometimes age seems to come into play. For both men and women. 

Meaning: my older female musician friends had opinions similar to my own. Treatment of women musicians sucks and plenty of people have no idea what really happens. Almost a willful ignorance. (I’m sort of a second wave feminist. One of my favorite books was “Toward a Feminist Theory of the State”. I learned later that it was far too limiting for women and a “lens” with which to view the world that was not very helpful.)

But the younger female acquaintances I reached out to seemed to have a very different perspective. Basically they were like, “well, if I work as hard as a guy I expect to have the same opportunities.” And that was it. 

I was a little surprised at the younger generation to say the least. 

And to be clear I was trying the broaden the conversation outside of composers to musicians. When I brought up cases of women in bar bands who wouldn’t be paid money — even if it was THEIR band ; the money would be withheld until a male band member accepted it — those examples were not accepted because I’d stopped talking about composers. (?!)

Anyway. I don’t know where this thread is going but I wouldn’t be surprised if it gets moved to the drama zone.


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## Markrs (Dec 13, 2021)

I read the same article and was really saddened that these problems exits. It has surprised not only me how few women we see in the forum but also in composing in general. Given how universal music is you would hope for an even gender split but we just don't see that.


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## Markrs (Dec 13, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> That proportion is exactly what got me started last time. The point made (on Facebook) was that women in general didn't have an interest in composing. And that's why there are fewer women composers. Actually I think it was more like women in general don't have the determination to work hard enough to become good composers, or something like that. i may be remembering it wrong. I'm not trying to put words in someone else's mouth. But it was something of that sort. And so I got into it with another guy about that comment... and he was trying to point out that there isn't necessarily the causality I was presuming as to why there are fewer women in composing. Like, sort of that maybe there's something about composing that is more or less something that men are intrinsically more into ... or something. But not necessarily hegemonic social or societal forces. Anyway. I'm going to start getting annoyed if I keep typing.


I'm glad I didn't see that conversation as I would strongly disagree with that persons comments. If you look at performers in an orchestra you have a lot of women. It is not easy to get into an orchestra, it takes dedication and persistence, just like it does to be a composer.


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## Double Helix (Dec 13, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> That proportion is exactly what got me started last time. The point made (on Facebook) was that women in general didn't have an interest in composing [. . .]


[cough] Nadia Boulanger [cough]

I know full well, @Soundbed, that you and most members of VI-Control have been aware of her for a long time, but the article's _partial_ list of her students might be an eye-opener to those few who do not know her. It goes without saying that the music world---and the world at large--would be much the poorer with her.








Nadia Boulanger - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## Mike Greene (Dec 13, 2021)

The topic is a valid one, so it won't get moved to the Drama Zone. It may get heavily pruned, though, so here is my general reasoning in situations like this:

1. Nobody wants to have to read a 50-page mega-thread. It's counter-productive. Less is often more, so please don't over-post with redundant thoughts. We especially don't need "+1" posts or "popcorn" posts.

With that in mind, we may do a lot of pruning. For instance, there are already multiple posts about whether this thread will get zapped. Absolutely totally valid posts (in fact, that's why I'm here  ), but since that issue is resolved (the thread will not get moved), it will be a cleaner read overall if we remove (most of) those posts.

2. Sometimes somebody posts like a jerk. When we delete those, we usually delete all posts responding to it. Please don't take offense.

3. I think everyone agrees that it would be great for more women to be in the field. (I doubt there will be any argument on that end.) The question will be on what the causes and solutions are. So it would be great if people could express differing views without being attacked as either sexist or woke snowflakes.


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## A.Dern (Dec 13, 2021)

Alright, here goes nothing... I think a lot of women feel uncomfortable talking about this because we've been sold this idea of a meritocracy. The recent video game lawsuits prove that idea to be false. But it was an idea I also believed in when I was younger - you work hard and you get rewarded. But then I spent several years in this industry (9 years so far to be exact) and soon saw plenty of patterns emerge. Let me list some shit I've seen either first-hand or heard from people who were there (because yes, despite our NDAs, women exchange stories to protect each other - anecdotal evidence is all we have). These aren't all about sexual harassment but it'll give you a good overview of the overall patterns:

1. The Pay Gap. I remember being paid 40% less than my male co-workers for the same job and same level of experience at one studio. When I found out and asked for a raise (which by the way would have barely put me above the poverty line), I was given a raise but the guys' salaries were not matched. Contrary to my male co-workers, I also didn't get a pay raise when I got a promotion. I only got a new title. On another occasion I was doing additional music and the male additional writers were offered both a higher per minute rate and more cue sheet, despite us all not having a pre-existing relationship with the studio and we all had roughly the same amount of experience. I thought maybe it was my fault for not asking for more and being a bad negotiator but when I asked the guys, they said they had not negotiated and were offered higher rates right off the bat. A friend of mine worked at another studio and was promoted to senior assistant when the previous guy left. She found out later that he had been paid substantially more for the same job and qualifications. When she asked for her salary to be matched to his, she was called crazy.

2. The Tech Bros. Even when I was hired to perform tech tasks at a studio - presumably because I knew about that sort of thing - somehow the tech bros frequently assumed I couldn't perform basic shit. Like not know where the ethernet cable goes. Or how to use simple chat software. Even when there was a guy with me who was also new that day, they'd insist I get the "extra thorough tech rundown" because we can't have the lady in the dress and heels mess things up (yes, I know it's crazy, I can exchange RAM and hard drives in your computer WHILE wearing heels - it's like I chose to play the boss level in Super Mario with Princess Peach). Bless the guy who showed me how to plug in a USB cable, demonstrating once again that we all need 3 tries to do it right (what's up with that???). Seriously, as I was transitioning out of the assistant and tech jobs, I even started to have fun with it. "Wait, you're saying, I'm NOT supposed to bend the pins when I put in the new CPU???" Then watched those douche canoes break into a sweat. One time, I was overbooked but needed an additional PC built. So I called one of the pro services that do this for composers. Even though I had laid out in my email EXACTLY what I needed, they guy tried to sell me all kinds of crap I didn't need. When he finally let me speak, I told him about my static VEP template and that I had built my current setup myself. So I knew what I needed and didn't need. He then started to call me "Baby" for the rest of the call, told me how super impressed he was I knew ANYTHING AT ALL about computers, and then started to shit talk all the other female composers he served by name who apparently know nothing about anything (highly doubt that...). Thank you Sir, I'll be taking my business to Newegg and OWC. I'd rather deal with cable management ALL NIGHT than deal with this BS and pay you for it. These stories are consistent with other female composers and also female engineers / mixers I've talked to.

3. Conducting. I conduct my own music whenever I can because... well, I enjoy it and it's a skill I have. During several classes at UCLA, prominent (old male) session musicians came up to me during breaks and said if I wanted to be taken seriously by the orchestra, I shouldn't dress so feminine and project more masculinity. There's a lot to unpack in this statement but let's just say these dudes will not be playing my music ever. Being asked to give up your femininity in a leading position to be respected is not new because femininity equals weakness. Needless to say, in order to make a point, I now almost exclusively conduct in dresses and skirts because fuck that shit. If this is something people need to see to get used to it, so be it. If anyone has a problem with it, they have no place in my orchestra. Those same things occurred with USC students as well since the schools usually use the same session players. Those session players would also trick us into "business meetings" which were supposed to be group dinners to get introductions and business advice, but they turned out to be romantic one-on-one dinners (yes, getting those Harvey Weinstein hotel room vibes there, aren't we...). Since we were mostly international students, we didn't have a car or money to quickly get away from those so we had to politely navigate the situation and take the nearest exit. Those same guys would also offer to us to live in their house rent free in exchange for "services" and sponsor our visas in the process. Some women had to get restraining orders because it got so bad.

4. Pregnancy. One colleague of mine was fired from her assistant position while she was on maternity leave. Yes, this is illegal but having just given birth and having no financial resources, she couldn't fight it. Another colleague was not hired at a studio because due to her age and marital status they were worried she'd have a baby soon. How do I know? I was in the room as the only woman. Even just talking about this is illegal. I pointed this out to the men in the room along with the fact that she was the most qualified candidate we had, and we shouldn't make assumptions about her personal life. Well, the less qualified male finalist was hired and I was never invited back into the room. I lost my seat at the table because I spoke up. This is what happens and one of the main reasons the minority in the room doesn't say anything. We're made to feel like we should be grateful that we're even allowed to be there and if we "misbehave", there will be instant punishment because we're now labeled as "difficult". For pointing out labor law. You either play along with the boys or you're kicked out. This is also one of the reasons why plenty of the "good guys" don't speak up. They're scared too.


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## A.Dern (Dec 13, 2021)

5. The Harassment. There's a wide range of harassment - some of it is as simple as making women feel unsafe in a given space (for example by constantly sitting too close, making inappropriate comments, repeatedly touching the woman) while some of it is downright gross and abusive (dick picks, inappropriate touching, rape). I was asked by one of my bosses to share naked pictures of myself while he was drunk in Vegas. He started to share inappropriate pictures of himself and frankly I didn't know how to handle the situation. I tried to be polite but still refused to participate. It worried me because working at this studio was my only income and they were my visa sponsor. I reported it and nothing was done for years. I left the studio shortly after but was hired by another composer on the same premises. My now former boss kept harassing me because he knew I had been talking (and he was also scared of a lawsuit because I had talked to other women he had done this to), to the point where I had to switch rooms and lock doors. The employer also let me park in their spot right by the door so I was always in a well lit area with security cameras. This is done by other studios as well by the way. Whenever we weren't allowed to park on the premises they would have security escort us to our cars after dark. So big hug from all the women to the studios that are aware of these issues and help. I was, however, blacklisted by a company for speaking out about this - as have many other women. Don't want those troublemakers at your studio... meanwhile lots of guys go on to have flourishing careers without any punishment whatsoever. Everyone is too afraid to say something. There was another time when several employees of a studio (both men and women) filed a formal letter of complaint against one of the studio managers for being sexist and inappropriate on the job. A week later, everyone was fired except for said manager. There are composers who engage in substance abuse on the job and make women feel unsafe in their space due to the resulting behavior. There are composers who will come to work in their pajamas, lie down inches behind you, and fall asleep - it's incredibly uncomfortable to work while your boss is snoring behind you half dressed. It's like you're working from inside their bedroom. There are composers who have been convicted and sentenced for violence against women. There are others who have harassed female employees to the point they were kicked off the premises where they were renting a studio. Only to build up their own and continue to harass women - now completely unchecked. There are composers who start (consensual) affairs with their employees. That in and of itself is not a crime and only mildly problematic (due to the power imbalance, but none of anyone's business if both parties are okay with it). It becomes problematic though, when that woman all of a sudden gets promotions and preferential treatment. Because that's now sending a signal to the other female employees - you want that promotion? You can work as hard as you want, it'll be given to the person willing to have an affair with the boss. This leads to very difficult choices that these women now need to confront - choices guys don't have to deal with. This also happens with filmmakers on occasion. They will show interest in a woman's music, only to then try and date her, and if she refuses, she loses the gig. There are many times women avoid industry events because they know they will get unwanted advances or their harassers are there. We've banded together in the past, going to events as a group and giving each other signals if we needed to get out of a situation. We shouldn't have to do that at professional industry events.

6. Verbal Abuse. There is also a range here and heavily depends on the relationship the people in the room have. There are jokes I make with friends and specific co-workers that I wouldn't make if there was a stranger in the room. But if you're a man, just be conscious of the fact that women deal with verbal harassment the moment they step out of their home (sometimes even before that). Statistically, 1 in 3 women worldwide (and 1 in 6 American women) have been the victim of rape or attempted rape. Almost 100% of women have experienced various forms of verbal harassment. So if you're making that tongue-in-cheek rape joke in your workplace, just know that there's a high chance your making that joke in front of someone who has experienced sexual violence. As a woman, you're supposed to be able to "take a joke" or else you're boring and stuck up. But there's a fine line. As innocent as some things may seem on the outside, it's probably the 10th instance of mild sexism she's encountering that day. It's death by a thousand cuts. It's that boss who comes in to work every day and casually says "Women can't write music so might as well give up" (yes, been there myself). It's that guy who harassed you on your way to work. It's that internet meme belittling women in music tech. It's that guy on Facebook saying women just want preferential treatment and denies our lived experiences. It's that little snarky joke your co-worker made. It's that little sting when they ask you to make coffee and serve everyone lunch for the 10th time in a row while no man was being asked to do that. That little sting when they question your skillset and experience. That sting when at a session you're the only woman and the staff assume you're the intern and ask you to run errands when really you've written half of the music that's being recorded that day. When you've done all the session prep because your male co-worker didn't know Pro Tools but the stage staff turns to him to congratulate him on such a flawless delivery. When those dudes don't speak up and keep taking credit for your work. Or when they comment on your looks. Or when they sexualize actresses or session musicians, trying to decide who is more fuckable. Or when they talk about a woman behind her back, saying she only got where she is because she's sexy. Or when they talk about a panel, stating the woman is only on it to fill a quota. Or when they say a woman was only hired for PR. You know, to this day, when I'm invited onto a panel or I get a meeting or a gig, there's a voice in my head that says "Am I only here because they needed a woman?" It's ALL the little things we need to be conscious of. I consider myself to have very thick skin but if you chip away at it long enough, it'll wear out over time.

7. Other BS. Promotions I was trained for and that were usually just given to my male co-workers before me, I had to compete for again with 200 other applicants. When the whole studio was pitching for stuff and my submission got picked twice over my boss' submission, my following submissions all mysteriously vanished. I was told I hadn't submitted on time even though I had the email to prove it. Filmmakers and executives who tell me (and other female composers with dozens or even over a hundred credits in their IMDB) that we need to put in more work before we're allowed to score bigger stuff. Meanwhile they have no issue trusting guys left and right with less than half the credits or experience. Being told we can't possibly write action music, so we're given only the romantic and soft scenes when writing additional music. Likewise, executives who only hire us for dramas and romcoms and kids' entertainment at best. Game studios where the music department prides themselves in "not having had any harassment issues" when in 20-30 years they've never once had a woman on their team to begin with. Other studios that in the wake of #metoo have stopped hiring women altogether to "avoid further complications". Yeah, great solution. Can't harass women if there aren't any. Studios that are VERY loud when it comes to diversity for PR purposes, but that are VERY quiet when it comes to actually hiring us. Our numbers have actually gone down, despite all the "diversity" programs they've started. No meaningful change has been made. Agencies, that won't represent minorities properly because they make less money and are harder to sell. Dudes that proclaim "being a woman or POC is now an advantage" when 97% or more of all commercial gigs still go to predominantly white men. The fact that a lot of men in this industry are allowed to "fail their way up" in many departments. If women mess up once, they are unemployed for years to come. No second chances. Plus it's often taken as a reflection on "all women". This does not go for women's success though. Then she is "the outlier" or "the special one" who isn't like the other suckers. The pressure of always being "the only one" or "the first one".

I have more to say about the systemic issues behind this but this is a pretty solid essay of my thoughts and experiences for now.


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## A.Dern (Dec 13, 2021)

Here's a very personal example of how gender stereotypes and sexism are still enforced behind closed doors, especially in male dominated fields:

My father is an engineer (construction). He was in an upper management position for most of my youth, and therefore in charge of hiring new engineers to work under him. He would bring home the applications, sit in our living room, and make three separate piles: the "no" pile, the "maybe" pile, and the "yes" pile. I was a pre-teen and watching TV when I got interested in how he selected new people. I looked through the "no" pile and noticed a pattern: they were all women. I asked him about that and he flat-out said "Yes, I will never hire a female engineer. They are an automatic no. This is a man's job and I don't see how they could be assertive with the construction workers". He didn't even look at their resumes. He just opened the first page, saw their name and picture (it's common in Germany to attach a passport picture to your cover letter - not sure if this is the case anymore), and dismissed them. They could have been Harvard or MIT graduates, it didn't matter - they never had a shot. My father didn't even realize what he had just told his pre-teen daughter - about what she could and couldn't do in her life. Furthermore, he insinuated that if the construction workers disrespected a female boss, it was only natural because boys will be boys. The "maybe" pile was also interesting. It was filled with men who had refused the (at the time) mandatory military training. To my father, these were not "real men" and would only be seriously considered if he couldn't find anyone remotely qualified in the "yes" pile. He would also dismiss anyone who "looked too gay". So his selection process was heavily influenced by his sexism AND toxic masculinity AND bigotry.

Now, is all of this illegal? Absolutely! But who could enforce labor law in our living room? He knew exactly why he wasn't doing this on company time and on company premises. He just quietly removed all the "undesirables" at home, leading everyone at the company to believe there simply were no other applicants. No one ever saw this. My dad 100% got away with this discrimination. He never hired a woman in his entire career which now spans decades.

Equality in the legal system doesn't mean equal opportunity.


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## ism (Dec 13, 2021)

EDIT: this was a response to a now deleted post, that I think was really trying to express solidarity, but ended with this unfortunate line, that I though merited a bit of texture:

“But unless it's gotten worse in the past decade and a half, it's not at the level as some people would have you believe.”


We've just heard an account that details, among other things, that in some ways it has become worse.

In any event, a lot of the dynamics are very subtle, and structural, and silenced. My own career has been harmed at times - and of course in completely unactionable ways - because I'm just not the kind of guy who's ever going to be able to laugh at the certain types of industry standard genres such as Beating up You Girlfriend jokes or Date Rape jokes or various other kinds of "jokes" that you'd think would grotesque unfunny. But no, apparently.

So it's one thing to recount some positive experience, and indeed the above article does note some real success stories. So that's all great.

But at the same time, speaking only for myself, I can't help feeling that when these "some people" speak out about how bad things really are, maybe we should hear them out?

And maybe this listening is somewhere where vi-c can be a part of the solution, rather than the problem.


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## A.Dern (Dec 13, 2021)

To add my previous comment: There's a reason why orchestras used to be heavily male dominated, yet after blind auditions were introduced they all started to balance out to a 50/50 gender ratio. I don't know why this isn't used much more as an example because it's so obvious.


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## josephwmorgan (Dec 13, 2021)

A.Dern said:


> To add my previous comment: There's a reason why orchestras used to be heavily male dominated, yet after blind auditions were introduced they all started to balance out to a 50/50 gender ratio. I don't know why this isn't used much more as an example because it's so obvious.


Thank you so much for breaking the ice. It is all so frustrating/heartbreaking to hear how unfairly you and so many others have been and continue to be treated. I think and hope that as long as the conversation continues and more stories are heard as more feel comfortable to speak out, we could potentially see the more powerful members of our industry being willing to influence change. It takes accountability and conversation to make a change. 

Another big hope I have here is not only for present composers to learn and grow, but perhaps even more importantly, the composers of tomorrow. I’ll be the first to admit I am incredibly low on the totem pole that is our community here, but it takes having an open forum like this to open the eyes of more composers to see what has shamefully been going on behind the scenes. It is absolutely ridiculous that any of what you have mentioned above was ever allowed and hopefully we are at the beginning of a reckoning for this sort of behavior to no longer be allowed to continue at any level.


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## Robin Thompson (Dec 13, 2021)

I have not yet been fortunate enough to work professionally in the music industry, but I've certainly seen this in other industries, and the main point I would underline is that there are lots of opportunities for us men to be active allies, including in many of Anne's examples. If you're offered a raise and happen to know a female coworker wasn't in the same situation, speak up and ask pointed questions about it. If male coworkers are condescending or harassing a woman, confront them, try to shut that shit down. It's not enough merely to not participate and sympathize and imagine that someday when you are in a position of power that you would do better. We are _always_ in a comparatively more powerful position than our female colleagues, that's the whole thing. So use that power. Yes, it may not work. And certainly it's difficult and scary to go out on a limb and jeopardize our livelihoods when we don't have to. But if women's livelihoods are under constant threat due to this sort of crap, why should ours be any different? Besides, we're men - we'll probably land on our feet anyway. So take the risks that come with being a real ally.

I feel I should add- there's definitely a wrong way to take this idea. We don't need men out there thinking of themselves as White Knights riding to the rescue of our ladies fair. But neither should women be left to deal with it on their own. Just stick up for your friends and colleagues is all I'm saying. And, of course, this applies in any other majority/minority dynamic. Just like the concept of being _anti_racist. Be _anti_sexist.


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## LudovicVDP (Dec 14, 2021)

@A.Dern 
This is really so sad. 
I actually didn't know what smiley to use to "like" your post since I like the fact you're telling us this very much but there is nothing to like in the situations you're depicting. 

May I ask you a honest question? Do you see a pattern in the age of the people who (intentionally or not) misbehave? Like are they mostly from the "Dad brings money back home while Mum has the dinner ready when he's back" generation? Or are young men as guilty as the old ones? With all those MeToo and awereness arising, does it tend to be better with younger generations?
I guess my question is: Is there hope?

Thanks for your posts.


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## Markrs (Dec 14, 2021)

@A.Dern you are so resilient to have to put with appalling behaviour. I can't imagine dealing with all of that and not deciding to quit the industry (I genuinely don't have that level of resilience, I have quit companies before for behaviour not even as close to what you and others have gone through). I am so pleased you and many others haven't, but how many have we lost in the industry for to what you all have to go through?


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## Brasart (Dec 14, 2021)

I mean we have an open thread here praising Jeremy Soule that gets bumped back to front page from time to time, full of people acting defensive of their right to openly celebrate a known predator in the game industry.
Even this quiet little forum about samples isn't that welcoming to everybody, even though I know Mike tries his best to make it so.


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## lux (Dec 14, 2021)

This is definitely heartbreaking and depressing.

My impression is that it has to do with meritocracy in a deeper way. I suspect (I may be wrong) that sexual harassers or power addicted's are pretty much the same guys who pick up the phone and just steal others jobs, the same guys who work every day to exercitate personal relationships over abilities, that tend to dismiss quality importance in the hope of being as presentable as other (often more talented) people. Power is needed as a coverage for your own deep holes and lack of personality. I can't see a single reason otherwise. 

I have the illusion of thinking that there is a link of inverse proportionality between the overall quality/talent of a system and the abuse rate. But, again, I may be wrong.


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## Henu (Dec 14, 2021)

Brasart said:


> I mean we have an open thread here praising Jeremy Soule that gets bumped back to front page from time to time, full of people acting defensive of their right to openly celebrate a known predator in the game industry.


Should I interpret this in a way that because it has been proven (Has it? I haven't followed the case for a long time.) that Soule has been a walking ass to some people, we shouldn't be enjoying his music nor appraise his musical skills? That's a bit dangerous mindset, if that's how it should be read.


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## quickbrownf0x (Dec 14, 2021)

@A.Dern - what the actual fuck?  Call me naive, but I had no idea it was this bad. What a bunch of bullshit. Thanks for pointing this out.


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## Brasart (Dec 14, 2021)

Henu said:


> Should I interpret this in a way that because it has been proven (Has it? I haven't followed the case for a long time.) that Soule has been a walking ass to some people, we shouldn't be enjoying his music nor appraise his musical skills? That's a bit dangerous mindset, if that's how it should be read.


Don't want to hijack this thread with another debate about him; these points have already been debated in said thread if you want answers to your questions


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## A.Dern (Dec 14, 2021)

Robin Thompson said:


> I have not yet been fortunate enough to work professionally in the music industry, but I've certainly seen this in other industries, and the main point I would underline is that there are lots of opportunities for us men to be active allies, including in many of Anne's examples. If you're offered a raise and happen to know a female coworker wasn't in the same situation, speak up and ask pointed questions about it. If male coworkers are condescending or harassing a woman, confront them, try to shut that shit down. It's not enough merely to not participate and sympathize and imagine that someday when you are in a position of power that you would do better. We are _always_ in a comparatively more powerful position than our female colleagues, that's the whole thing. So use that power. Yes, it may not work. And certainly it's difficult and scary to go out on a limb and jeopardize our livelihoods when we don't have to. But if women's livelihoods are under constant threat due to this sort of crap, why should ours be any different? Besides, we're men - we'll probably land on our feet anyway. So take the risks that come with being a real ally.
> 
> I feel I should add- there's definitely a wrong way to take this idea. We don't need men out there thinking of themselves as White Knights riding to the rescue of our ladies fair. But neither should women be left to deal with it on their own. Just stick up for your friends and colleagues is all I'm saying. And, of course, this applies in any other majority/minority dynamic. Just like the concept of being _anti_racist. Be _anti_sexist.


I agree, we need active allies. Personally, I'd rather have someone err on the White Knight side than have someone stand by and not do anything at all. The help doesn't have to be loud though. It can be small things. Here are some examples:

If you know a woman is in a bad work situation, offer to help her transition out of it if you can.
If you know women at events, let them know they can text you if they need to get out of a situation.
If you know a woman is about to start working for someone who is known for harassment, warn her.
If you notice a woman is being talked over in a meeting or her ideas are dismissed, amplify her.
If someone repeats her idea as their own in a meeting, remind everyone whose idea it was.
If someone repeatedly tries to tell her she can't do something, offer to teach / mentor her if that's what she needs.
If you can, share salaries and payment details with her so she knows what she can ask for.
If you see certain "service" tasks frequently pushed on her but none of the men, offer to take turns and mobilize others to do the same.
If inappropriate jokes are made, call it out.
Communicate with her if you see something - ask her if she's okay and let her know she has an ally. Sometimes, all that's needed is an honest chat and talking her up a bit when she's been dealing with nonsense all day. But a "What can I do to help?" goes a long way.
For every terrible excuse of a man I've encountered, I've also had a dozen wonderful guys behind me who would do everything in their power to counterwork the bad shit and help me out.

If you're the only one of your kind in the room at all times - be it a woman or a POC - you're unlikely to speak up. Because you don't want to be "difficult". You wanna be the "cool girl" that can hang with the boys. You don't wanna risk losing your seat at the table.


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 15, 2021)

A lot of these things happen in academia too. We have the benefit of a union, but early in one's career there is no job security. And there is a major emphasis on working like a demon at the point that would otherwise be a good time to start a family. And having children still generally (though not universally) has a greater impact on women. 

One of the things that bothers me hugely is the continuing influence of generations of a certain demographic making up the vast majority of academics. It affects what gets thought of as a worthy subject of study, or an acceptable methodology, and that affects what gets published where and who gets hired. But there is always a reason that can be expressed in terms that conceal prejudice. Often even from the pseudo-allies offering those reasons. 

It can vary by subject area; and I'm sure it isn't as bad as other industries in a lot of ways. But when out of around ten hires, only two are women, there are questions to be asked. And always, always, there are 'reasons' given as answers.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Dec 15, 2021)

This shit is everywhere. Obviously the gaming industry is in the spotlight right now. But I know from personal acquaintances that the same thing is going on in academia (wonder oh wonder) and architecture and has been forever.


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## chrisr (Dec 15, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> But when out of around ten hires, only two are women, there are questions to be asked. And always, always, there are 'reasons' given as answers.


I got involved in a thread a couple of years back (march 2019 (p8) if you care to search my posts...) where I was asking exactly that question of an audio company, who employ no women in creative positions (they still don't, I see, if their staff page is up to date...)

The response from this very board was pretty much "meh..." which I found disheartening.

The only positive at the time was that the Directors of the company came into the conversation, which I thought was a decent thing to do. Their 'reasons'? Few/no women applying.


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 15, 2021)

chrisr said:


> I got involved in a thread a couple of years back (march 2019 (p8) if you care to search my posts...) where I was asking exactly that question of an audio company, who employ no women in creative positions (they still don't, I see, if their staff page is up to date...)
> 
> The response from this very board was pretty much "meh..." which I found disheartening.
> 
> The only positive at the time was that the Directors of the company came into the conversation, which I thought was a decent thing to do. Their 'reasons'? Few/no women applying.


Few applications can be an issue. After all, professions have been gendered in ways that can be off-putting. It's definitely not the case in academia, though. For the most applicants are equally male and female. Demographics other than middle class and white are unrepresented amongst applicants, and of course many disabilities make it hard to flourish in a profession built around long hours and constantly moving around campus.


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## NekujaK (Dec 15, 2021)

My wife has been a professional musician her entire life. Primarily a singer, she's also a bandleader, recording artist, songwriter, producer, and more recently a composer.

I first met her over 20 years ago when I hired her to produce my first CD. We recorded at two different studios. The first, was run by a close friend of hers, and the working relationship between her, the engineer, and the hired musicians was excellent. She clearly was in command of the sessions, had the respect of everyone involved, and obviously had the talent and expertise necessary to bring out the best in the material.

After the main sessions, we ended up recording a couple of supplemental songs at a another studio run by someone she only knew peripherally, and it was a completely different experience. I was appalled to see the (male) engineer generally ignore her presence and dismiss her requests. He would double-check with me every time she gave direction, while I made it clear she was running the show, always deferring back to her. But that didn't change his behavior. Midway through our second session, she had enough and simply walked out, never to return to that studio again.

As reprehensible as that experience was, I know that in the many years before I met her, she experienced far worse treatment as a female artist, and always had to struggle to overcome those obstacles.

One of the ways that eventually helped her rise above it, is her unwavering support of other female artists. That may seem like an obvious thing, but to hear her tell it, because women always have to work extra hard at proving themselves, they tend to be extremely competitive with one another, to the point of actively undermining their female colleagues. Some of the worst treatment she's received in the industry has actually come from other female music professionals. I've witnessed it first hand. Through it all, much to my amazement, my wife has unwaveringly supported the female artists around her, sometimes even to her own short-term detriment.

But it turns out she was playing the long game. All those years of lifting up those around her bolstered her reputation and earned her tremendous respect. Now she's at a point where she's able to choose the people she works with and surrounds herself with music professionals who mutually respect and support one another. I hardly ever hear her complain about toxic interactions any more, but of course, sadly it's still out there.

In addition to other musical pursuits, my wife and I also work together as composing partners, and that's been great. Being a female/male team pretty much diffuses the potential for any sexism in nearly every situation. We also try as much as possible, to work on film projects directed and/or produced by women, keeping with the overall approach of actively supporting creative women.

So while my wife's story basically has a positive arc, it unfortunately doesn't suggest that the core problem of sexism towards women in the music industry has gone away - far from it - especially so for women entering the field and trying to establish a career for themselves. A big problem is that there are almost no avenues of recourse or accountability for sexual misconduct in the music industry. At least in the corporate world, there are laws and policies in place, that even if poorly enforced, provide a set of guidelines that define harrassment, and a method for lodging complaints that can result in actual administrative action. No such support exists in the music business. If a club owner, studio owner, etc. gropes a female artist, who can she turn to? There's no HR department to support her. Legal action is prohibitively expensive, and for non-felonious offenses, would likely result in hardly any consequences.

Just keep on keeping up the good fight.


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## chrisr (Dec 15, 2021)

Yeah @Bee_Abney, as I took another look this morning at the _wall of white men_ that is their (45 strong!) Team page, I did think that if I was anything other than a middle aged white guy (my profile pic is me) then I probably wouldn't fancy working there either!

If I was one of the people at the top of that organisation, then immediately after that thread I would have gone out and scoured the recent tech/audio/music graduates around the country, offered several internships and started to address the staffing imbalances. I'd have made sure that web-page looked a lot different within days/weeks of that thread (of 34 months ago). It's pretty poor that they didn't do that, even accounting for the global pandemic.

_If_ the talent market is really that skewed then you have a duty, as an employer of such a large team, to make change happen from the top down, once you're aware of the issue.


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## Valérie_D (Dec 15, 2021)

André (creativeforge) shared this youtube channel with me which explores women composers :


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEgIu9tRclQYh9GDYfMjiWA/videos


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## darkogav (Dec 15, 2021)

I may be the unpopular voice here. I am not entirely convinced of the #METOO movement. I have been in the labor force for almost 35 years. In that entire time, I would say > 90% of my managers and supervisors were females. I am convinced of the #BLM movement though. Of those female managers, only two of them were black. All others were white women. Not sure if that means anything in this discussion. It's also highly labor market industry specific I am sure.

As far as music career goes. We always strived to try to get female singers as they generally had mch better voices than males. Female lead singers were usually just as moody, bossy and opinionated as male lead singers. The only difference was they were less delusional than the male lead singers.

I read the article this thread references. it sounds like a union fluff promo piece. How is a labor union going to fix all your issues in modern society? Have you ever look at the ads for film production work? Most of them are, only non-union people allowed to apply.


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## wetalkofdreams (Dec 15, 2021)

Thank you to the female composers for speaking out, and especially taking the time to explain it to those of us who are born privileged by being male - especially in this forum which is heavily dominated by men.

It's not enough for us to only be aware of this issue, but we have to act on it, especially those of us in here who are in the position to hire people or buy instruments (yes, I'm looking at the people who think it's acceptable to comment on the appearance of female staff who work in spitfire audio every time they're in a video). 

We have to do better.


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 15, 2021)

darkogav said:


> I may be the unpopular voice here. I am not entirely convinced of the #METOO movement. I have been in the labor force for almost 35 years. In that entire time, I would say > 90% of my managers and supervisors were females. I am convinced of the #BLM movement though. Of those female managers, only two of them were black. All others were white women. Not sure if that means anything in this discussion. It's also highly labor market industry specific I am sure.
> 
> As far as music career goes. We always strived to try to get female singers as they generally had mch better voices than males. Female lead singers were usually just as moody, bossy and opinionated as male lead singers. The only difference was they were less delusional than the male lead singers.
> 
> I read the article this thread references. it sounds like a union fluff promo piece. How is a labor union going to fix all your issues in modern society? Have you ever look at the ads for film production work? Most of them are, only non-union people allowed to apply.


Hey, popular or otherwise, I don't mind hearing your opinion about #METOO! But I'm not sure how the rest of your post relates to the opinion expressed in the second sentence. If it's relevant, you didn't say how. But it's not a debate; you don't have to come here with a fully developed line of reasoning, an argument and evidence and so on. I certainly didn't. I'm just a bit nonplussed on what you were trying to say and hence why you wanted to say it here. If you were just thinking out loud, then that's fine by me.

Independently of the issue of gendered inequalities, sexual harrassment, assault and rape, that women have to deal with (I don't know anyone well enough to discuss the issue with who doesn't know someone who was raped - not always but mostly women; and I'd rather not go further into that topic at the moment); you raise some interesting ideas on the futility of labour movements and unions. I don't think they are borne out by what little I know of other unions in the 'entertainment' business; nor of unions in my own field. But I don't think unions are an alloyed good. They may still be worth it.

*MODERATOR NOTE*_ - In the interest of keeping the thread as focused as possible, I'm deleting responses about unions. I'm also deleting "debate" posts._


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## Valérie_D (Dec 15, 2021)

@A.Dern
''During several classes at UCLA, prominent (old male) session musicians came up to me during breaks and said if I wanted to be taken seriously by the orchestra, I shouldn't dress so feminine and project more masculinity.''
I remember Luce Beaudet from the University of Montreal, a little woman, about 70+years old and she was so respected and admired. It's not the same context but I must say, in any industry, this is very deplorable to ask a woman to be more masculine and to dare demanding it is weak and childish. Seriously, if I was a man, I'd be mortified to hear this from a collegue, even if it's from an older generation.
Lots of films portray women facing sexism, overcoming adversity, etc. I wonder how these recording sessions go 
Here's Pinar Toprak conducting and dressed as, well, herself.


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## KEM (Dec 15, 2021)

I’m far from qualified to speak on such a topic but I can certainly say with confidence that the female composers on here can certainly write circles around me and it’s very unfortunate that they aren’t always given equal opportunity to thrive in such a male dominated industry even if they do have the qualifications

The treatment of women across many industries that’s come to light in recent years shows that we certainly have a long way to go in how we treat them, and accountability is the first step, especially in music where women are just as capable as men, so for what it’s worth I stand with all my female composer friends fighting for their chance to be treated as an equal and have the same opportunities that us men have


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## darkogav (Dec 16, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> #metoo primarily brings attention to instances sexual assault, sexual abuse, sexual harassment, sexual violence and other sex crimes, as far as I understand.
> 
> It’s not primarily about who got hired.


In reference to the article that is being mentioned, is the article about job equity or about criminal offenses committed in the music industry? I read it as an article primarily focused on job equity and equal opportunities.

You may want to also google the case of Galloway and the UBC Vancouver case that is currently in courts. It shows what happens when people blindly jump to conclusions without actually bothering to check or verify details. The case changed drastically from 2015 to what it is now. Basically, after the fellow lost his high paying job, he started getting lawyers involved. Then more details emerged and it turns out he was dating two women when he was single and chose to marry one of them so the other one decides to get him fired. So far, the only thing this fellow has been proven guilty of is being lack of good judgement and allowing himself to get involved with his grad students. It's not a criminal offense to have lack of good judgement. But once the case started picking up steam, everyone involved started deleting their online profiles and getting the media to black out their names. My point of bring this up is it's a good example of what happens when people jump to conclusions based on hearsay and don't bother to ask more questions.


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 16, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> #metoo primarily brings attention to instances sexual assault, sexual abuse, sexual harassment, sexual violence and other sex crimes, as far as I understand.
> 
> It’s not primarily about who got hired.


That was it's beginning and it's central concern. For good or ill, though, I believe it got effectively expanded as standing issues got appended. I'm sure that there are others who watched the developments more closely than I did, though. The issues are related, but it can weaken a campaign if the message gets diluted. Also, there are some issues where there will be widespread agreement (if not agreement on how to tackle them) and others where there won't be. I believe talking about consensus may itself be divisive, so I'll leave it there!

Focusing on the issues of harassment without addressing sexism generally is a little difficult. Perceived vulnerability can create vulnerability. By which I mean, in this case, men who think little of women and think them weak and exploitable actually put women in a more perilous position than their actual strength and resilience (and legal status) would otherwise have done. (The regular caveat about this being an issue for other overlapping groups applies.) This is a situation where the attitudes of White Knights are part of the larger problem (even if the individuals concerned are thoroughly nice chaps).

I remember a fictional case in a novel by Robert A Heinlein called 'Friday'. A woman who was an expert combatant couldn't get a job working security because her appearance alone was deemed not to radiate the kind of physical prowess that would discourage trouble, even if she was unusually capable of dealing with it should it arise. Applying that idea here, predators seek weakness; where they see it, they create vulnerability in those who are not in themselves weak. The strong are made vulnerable by being targets. (And I'm not even strong!)

Going off on a bit of a tangent about strength, I have heard it said by some people, men and women, that a strong person can handle the lower-level rudeness or unwanted advances. But no-one is so strong at every moment! Nor can anyone be expected to remain unaffected by the sheer frequency and number of such occurrences. Particularly unpleasant individuals aside, it is also a problem made up of smaller behaviours that are no great sin in any one person (such as an only semi-humorous flirtatiousness) that can add up into a more general, oppressive pattern.

Agh! I need to stay away from this thread now! Although I always write in the abstract, I can't stop myself venting!


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## darkogav (Dec 16, 2021)

Valérie_D said:


> @A.Dern
> Seriously, if I was a man, I'd be mortified to hear this from a collegue, even if it's from an older generation.


I have been in the labor force for a long time. Many a time's in my life I have been told to wear a suit, get a hair cut, and "dress more conservatively" if I want to get promoted or get a better job. I know it's not the exact same thing, but just throwing it out there as something to consider from a male point of view on your comment.


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## ism (Dec 16, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> It’s not primarily about who got hired.


Except of course that keeping quiet about experiences of sexual harassment and assault in the context of monsters like Harvey Weinstein is very much about who gets hired. This is a central dynamic of the abuse of power in some of the early, high profile cases at the heart of the explosion of the #meToo narrative.

For men too, in that cultivating one's ignorance, plausibility deniability, reputation for suppressing suspiscions, ability to be genuinely, sincerely, hand-on-heart, *shocked* when something bad happens to a female colleague, and avoidance of anything else that might be read as detrimental to "team cohesion" can be just as important to one's career track.

And not just in the context of a monster like Weinstein. Someone very close to me has twice been fired for noticing these dynamics. Once as a teenager working at McDonalds for quietly, but unequivocally, running interference between a manager and a (teenage) girl he was sliming over. And again, much later, with a family to support, in a much more complex institutional context.

Of course, McDonald's didn't fire him for "Undermining the efficiency of managerial sexual harassment activities". The slimy manager quietly added his name to a morning shift at the last minute without notification. In the latter case, its was a vastly a more subtle discursive situation, involving not only an NDA (upon which severance was contingent) but an even more powerful discursive context of plausible deniability.

I also remember in an exit interview attempting to subtly hint at some "cultural issues" underlying my exit. But didn't want to say "this is a toxic cesspool of misogynic lad culture", partly because I was vulnerable to needing a reference. But also, the hard capitalist logic here is my not being able to laugh, or even mildly guffaw, at things like rape jokes was genuinely a drag on team cohesion, and therefore shareholder value. And absent hope for meaningful change at time, I didn't want to give them any more insight to better profile for non-misogynistic in male applicants.

(These weren't bad people, incidentally. In fact mostly they were very good people. This was just the ambient discourse. The HR person was a woman, incidentally. But her loyalty was, naturally, to shareholder value, and so really wasn't in a position to be an ally.).

So, I guess my point is .. that it's it's least kind of about who gets hired.

And not just who gets hired, but who is able to survive the self-selecting toxicity of a particular cultural environment.

On that note - just a word of respect for Anne-Kathrin and others who stick around vi-c, to all of our benefit, despite the horrendous crap they have to put up with for speaking their experience.


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## creativeforge (Dec 16, 2021)

Thank you to the ladies who shared their sad and shocking experiences. I have occasionally heard that to make it in the industry, you have to accept starting low, and being treated like crap, do coffee runs, and bear the verbal abuse of those running the show, until you get an "opportunity."

In Montreal there is a highly praised conductor (Dutoit) who is now facing the courts for alleged sexual harassment, one count of rape.

Two things stand out:
1- The alleged (I hate that term but the law is the law) reported abuses occurred over periods ranging from 15 to 20 years.
2- It is as Anne says - "everybody" knew about it. Women were basically the ones giving warnings, advice and unwritten rules to one another. As one of the victims said: "I alerted the orchestra manager, who told me (too late...) that they usually advised women not to enter his dressing room unaccompanied, as there had been previous complaints.

So they knew what was going on... I have never felt angrier or less protected by an organisation. They continued to employ him, whilst knowing he harassed women."

This internationally know conductor makes light of this by alleging that "Whilst informal physical contact is commonplace in the arts world as a mutual gesture of friendship, the serious accusations made involving coercion and forced physical contact have absolutely no basis in truth."

► "...as a mutual gesture of friendship..." (whaaaa). Oh the utter cluelessness of the narcissistic predator.

Another worldwide renowned conductor (James Levine) is also having to face the music for his 2 decades of abuses. Public disgrace is catching up with these types.

Hearing women articulate their reality and organize is certainly encouraging. Exposing these attitudes to the light is necessary for this and the upcoming generation of composers and studio musicians. Merit should be honored.

Andre


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## darkogav (Dec 17, 2021)

ism said:


> And not just who gets hired, but who is able to survive the self-selecting toxicity of a particular cultural environment.
> 
> On that note - just a word of respect for Anne-Kathrin and others who stick around vi-c, to all of our benefit, despite the horrendous crap they have to put up with for speaking their experience.
> 
> (Respect also for the moderators who I really think are working hard and doing their best, but moderation is never going to be perfect, and even if it could be, moderation is never going to be more that a single thread in the immensely complex re-weaving of social structure that any kind of full solution will require).


Re: Toxic cultures. The source of toxic workplace culture can be rooted in a lot of things. Based on my experiences in the labor force thus far, I firmly believe in the saying, "the rot starts at the head and works it's way down the body". Toxic culture does not hide beneath the surface undetected. Meaning it's nurtured and allowed to flourish from the top; and in some cases, it's artificially manufactured by the top management of the organization[1]. Also, in some industries it is endemic and is deeply rooted in how that industry functions and operates. It does not mean it can't be eradicated, it just means it comes part and parcel with how that industry has been working for a very long time. (See real estate, sales, marketing.. e.t.c. anywhere where personal appearances and connections directly translate into money transactions). I recall many years ago working for an pretty big ad agency. A really fun place to work at, but also contained all the hallmarks of what would be considered a sexist and toxic environment today. The female employee's who worked and liasoned directly with the client were expected to dress and act a certain way for clients. If they looked like a skateboarder, that client would have gone somewhere use, unless they happen to be Tony Hawk inc.

re: Moderation. It's important to allow a two way conversation on topics so people can get a different perspective and point of view on a subject, else you start to promote and participate in your own cancel culture environment. 

[1] re re-orgs. It has been my experience that there are exec consultants out there who specialize in getting hired to re-org a workplace. They turn a perfectly healthy workplace into a toxic environment, and then magically disappear after 12 to 24 months. Generally it always follows the same pattern and script, it's almost as if they teach this in MBA school (hint..hint..wink.. wink..). A random person unknow to anyone in the industry gets hired at the top during a major transition period. This person sits, observes, and does nothing for about 3 to 6 months and then people start to magically leave. Usually the people that are good at what they do leave first. Then the transformation into fully toxic workplace starts and people kick into sink or swim survival mode and all rules go out the window. 

I still re-call an episode with my manager at the time. She was one of the coolest and most hard working people I have ever worked for or seen in the workplace. She never got involved in the rumor mill and would just work hard and pace a brisk pace from the moment she got into work until she left work. She was pregnant and working right through to the last minute before she was supposed to go on leave. This was right as the re-org was under way and I re-call going into her office for our regular meeting. She had just gotten off the phone with someone and I could tell she was upset but not showing it. I had never seen her upset. She was looking down at her desk and then looked out the window. I asked if everything was okay and she just turned to me and said, "You know, sometimes these things happen". A few weeks after that she left. She went to work for a smaller organization and from what I can tell she has been there ever since going on 15 years. They torched one of their best employees and another smaller org gained from it.


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## Tinaguo (Dec 18, 2021)

Hello Everyone! I hope you're having a great weekend. I read through every post in this thread and appreciate all the insight and information here. 

I started doing small recording sessions at age 18 when I first arrived in Los Angeles, and although I felt like older session players initially lacked respect for me- I don't attribute that to my gender, but rather the same "vetting" period and curiosity for any new young player coming into the scene. I played in the orchestras for a couple years, but my focus was always on solo work and I focused on building that side of my career by obsessively focusing on my brand as a solo musician.

In my 18 years, I have been very lucky to have worked with incredible composers- some women but mostly men- and have never once felt like I was being oppressed or abused. The only situation that I experienced that made me uncomfortable was with a certain video game music composer who developed an obsession and started writing me FB Messages and Emails regularly, professing his love for me and inviting me to "check out his new microphones" at night in his new studio. I told him no- if he wanted to hire me for a project, he could hire me and I would go to his studio for that during the day. It was obvious what he was trying to do. Despite me asking him to stop contacting me, he continued so at that point I asked a male colleague to email him directly also- and that stopped the composer in his tracks. He immediately wrote an apology email and never made another inappropriate comment. We never ended up working together, but he did provide stems and sheet music for some of his pieces when I did a cover of his music years later, and the "relationship" remained purely professional.

Yes, this was inappropriate behavior on his part, but I guess I don't view that as "abuse" because I never allowed anything to develop and was extremely clear with my boundaries. At the time when he first messaged me, I was struggling financially and could have used work from him or anyone, but I knew it would turn into a nasty situation. I can see how this is predatory behavior though, and how certain girls can get wrapped up in that- and at least a couple have. This composer is no longer working.

I think that personally, I'm also very careful to jump to conclusions or believe what I hear because of my own experience being the subject of many false rumors, especially at the start of my career. The things that colleagues have told me that other female musicians were saying about me used to make me feel enraged, but I understand it came from a place of naiveness and insecurity. Most of these rumors were something along the lines of me sleeping with composers to get work- and this being the reason why I was getting so many solo opportunities. Never mind that I was soloing with symphonies as a classical musician too... or the 8 hours a day of practice (eye roll.) In my experience, using your body to get work is the opposite of what one should do- extremely short-term thinking. The only way to command respect is to always be felt and seen as an equal, and equals do not prostrate themselves to get work. In nearly two decades, I dated two composers, and ironically, after the situations ended, we never worked together again- so in fact, having romantic relations actually hinder your ability to work together- things have a real potential of getting awkward!

Because of the craziest of stories imaginable I've heard from others about myself, I'm just extremely cautious to believe what I hear about others without some type of specific information. It doesn't mean I "love rapists" or don't care about women- I love women obviously, and I love the fact that there are more and more of us in this industry as time passes, and I have many female friends who are thriving in the Soundtrack world.

Other than these stories, my own experience has been very positive- always being treated with respect and consideration, starting off at charging $15 an hour when I was a nobody and no one wanted me to record for them- to eventually commanding a fee now that is not less but probably considerably more than my male counterparts. It has nothing to do with gender- but skill/product/brand/marketing potential. It's just business. We are not just "cello players" - we are individuals who bring our unique self to each project and our value is simply determined by what the client is willing to pay from their perceived value of us.

In my 18 years, I only received one racist comment from a friend of a composer who was visiting from Brazil during a session about 10 years ago, so there is that! I'm not denying the possibility of racism/sexism/bigotry as we all know that sadly exists everywhere in every industry, but I just want to give an honest and balanced account from my own lived experience. Any other negative or trying experiences I've had had nothing to do with my gender, but just with the difficulties every person of any creed would experience. It's a difficult path as any artistic one is, and requires a mixture of skill, patience, determination- and yes, luck.

That being said, I have recently pivoted my focus to composing and I haven't had experience working my way up through a composer ecosystem. I would hope that it would be a similar experience to what I've experienced so far as a session musician/performer/contributing composer.

I hope that if there are any "creeps" in our midst, that they are called out and held accountable. But until then, I can only share my own observation - of our beautiful, difficult, challenging, but extremely rewarding and exciting world of adventurous music for media making!

Love to you all and Happy Holidays!
Tina


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 18, 2021)

Tinaguo said:


> Hello Everyone! I hope you're having a great weekend. I read through every post in this thread and appreciate all the insight and information here. At first, I felt reluctant to give my first-hand account of my own experience in our industry for the past 18 years, due to the unfortunate responses in the Perspective Forum by certain women who were upset that I did not immediately jump to join the bandwagon - both in the forum and through private messages, telling me I need to "be an ally" without question. I'm sorry, I don't care if you're a woman, man, bigender, or a horse- I will not be told by anyone to do anything without rational discourse and consideration.
> 
> I feel like the moment we attempt to silence or become angry at other people who don't feel the way we do, or have not had the same experiences- is the moment we lose all rationality and become oppressors of freedom. I was accused of "siding with the rapists" and being called "toxic ass garbage" on Twitter chains by enraged women because of my account of mostly positive experience- and again, just my own personal experience which is the only reality I have - after working with thousands of people in our industry over the years. Of course, I and every other rational human would never side with abusers, but I refuse to "back a movement" until there are at the very minimum- specifics presented, if not some type of tangible proof. I also think it's detrimental and hypocritical behavior to not conduct ourselves with decorum and respect - especially if we're working so hard for our "seat at the table." I don't mean for this to be an admonishment of certain women, but I beg you to look internally and ask yourself if the way you're approaching the situation is conducive or hurtful to your cause. Threatening others if they don't agree with you isn't a tactic of negotiation I would recommend.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry for the way some people have responded to your expressions of your experiences and opinions.

Thank you for sharing. 

I hope you have a lovely Christmas!


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## Tinaguo (Dec 18, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> I'm sorry for the way some people have responded to your expressions of your experiences and opinions.
> 
> Thank you for sharing.
> 
> I hope you have a lovely Christmas!


Thanks Bee! I went in and removed those first two paragraphs since I don't want to give it any attention, but I appreciate it. Happy Holidays!


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## Soundbed (Dec 18, 2021)

Tinaguo said:


> Hello Everyone! I hope you're having a great weekend. I read through every post in this thread and appreciate all the insight and information here.
> 
> I started doing small recording sessions at age 18 when I first arrived in Los Angeles, and although I felt like older session players initially lacked respect for me- I don't attribute that to my gender, but rather the same "vetting" period and curiosity for any new young player coming into the scene. I played in the orchestras for a couple years, but my focus was always on solo work and I focused on building that side of my career by obsessively focusing on my brand as a solo musician.
> 
> ...


Thank you for voicing your experience.


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## josephwmorgan (Dec 18, 2021)

Tinaguo said:


> Hello Everyone! I hope you're having a great weekend. I read through every post in this thread and appreciate all the insight and information here.
> 
> I started doing small recording sessions at age 18 when I first arrived in Los Angeles, and although I felt like older session players initially lacked respect for me- I don't attribute that to my gender, but rather the same "vetting" period and curiosity for any new young player coming into the scene. I played in the orchestras for a couple years, but my focus was always on solo work and I focused on building that side of my career by obsessively focusing on my brand as a solo musician.
> 
> ...


Tina, thank you so much for overcoming your initial reluctance and taking the time to share your experience with us here. Your original post mentioned the importance of decorum and respect that I hope this particular thread will always maintain.

Your career has been so fun for all of us to watch grow over the years. I remember hearing your playing on a Thomas Bergersen track almost 10 years ago now and to see where you've come since then is so incredibly awesome! I'm sorry for any of the attacks that have been leveled against you in the past, and I'm even happier to hear that you haven't had many experiences like those mentioned in the article (besides the one you mentioned of course). I just wish stories like yours were in the majority instead of what sounds and seems like the minority! Though there ARE other success stories for women in our industry, it isn't a secret to say they are few and far between.

I'm really excited to hear your work as a composer as you transition into this new part of your career (but I also hope to hire you to play on a track of ours in the future ) I wish you all the same success as a composer that you've had as a cellist/session player and share your passion for our little community to shine a light on the creeps hiding in the shadows!

-Matt Morgan/JWM


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## KEM (Dec 18, 2021)

Tinaguo said:


> Hello Everyone! I hope you're having a great weekend. I read through every post in this thread and appreciate all the insight and information here.
> 
> I started doing small recording sessions at age 18 when I first arrived in Los Angeles, and although I felt like older session players initially lacked respect for me- I don't attribute that to my gender, but rather the same "vetting" period and curiosity for any new young player coming into the scene. I played in the orchestras for a couple years, but my focus was always on solo work and I focused on building that side of my career by obsessively focusing on my brand as a solo musician.
> 
> ...



Thank you for sharing your experiences Tina and welcome to VI!! Hope you’ll stick around, I know we’d all love to hear more from you around here


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Dec 19, 2021)

Well. It's great that Tina never had to go through any crap in her career. But effectively, her post could be taken as "_well, I the famous person, personally never had any issues. Maybe you shouldn't believe everything you hear._" Which makes me think about in which way this relates to the whole _"believe women" _sentiment. Not trying to insinuate that this was her intention, but stuff like this kind of tends to put the brakes on the discourse.


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## patrick76 (Dec 19, 2021)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Well. It's great that Tina never had to go through any crap in her career. But effectively, her post could be taken as "_well, I the famous person, personally never had any issues. Maybe you shouldn't believe everything you hear._" Which makes me think about in which way this relates to the whole _"believe women" _sentiment. Not trying to insinuate that this was her intention, but stuff like this kind of tends to put the brakes on the discourse.


One can still "believe women" without abandoning the need for some level of scrutiny. Also, Tina most certainly did not say she, "never had to go through crap in her career." She mentioned she was harassed by a male composer and also endured rumors (I'll say slander) about herself from female colleagues.


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## Mike Greene (Dec 19, 2021)

Thank you to @A.Dern and @Tinaguo for posting.

I should mention that I've reached out to a couple other women composers, but haven't been able to get them to post. They're understandably busy, of course, but it's also worth noting that there are dangers to posting on a politically charged topic like this, where some people (including potential employers) might go into a tizzy about whether a woman is "too feminist" or "not feminist enough." Crazy IMO, but as we've seen on a couple Facebook groups where things got waaayyy out of hand on this topic, that's the reality. So truly, thank you, Anne-Kathrin and Tina!

And ... thank you to the membership here! The contrast between the discussions here and elsewhere is striking. I love this forum.

Anyway, it's great that we could get multiple (albeit only two ... so far!) viewpoints from women in the industry. I still hold out hope that my other friends will post, but we're kinda lucky that even with only two posting, we've gotten two very different perspectives.

To be clear, we're not going to "solve" sexism here, so the more realistic goal with this thread is to learn. 90% of us here are men (yeah, I know, but I'm trying), so as with the _Women-Only Gearslutz Name Change_ thread, the bigger opportunity here is to _listen_, rather than a typical debate amongst a bunch of dudes.

With that in mind, this is not the place to challenge what they have posted. Their experiences are very different, but that doesn't mean there's now a break in the space-time continuum and we need to debate which one is "right." They're _both_ right, and we're richer from hearing about both their experiences.

Thankfully, almost everyone here already gets that without me spelling it out. I've deleted a couple posts from people who don't, but that's about it, proving my general theory that _"99% of the people here 'get it'."_

With that said, I'll admit I've been very heavy handed with the moderation, although that's largely been for purposes of keeping the thread focused and short. By deleting side topics and superfluous posts, Tina's post is at the top of page 3, rather than page 9. (Which is literally where it would have been without the deletions.) A lot of these are judgement calls, and I obviously make mistakes with some, so I appreciate everyone's patience and understanding with what I'm trying to do here.

*EDIT* - _Thanks also to @Valérie_D and @Bee_Abney, whose contributions have also been valuable. I didn't include them earlier (although perhaps should have) because I was focusing on posts about personal composer experiences._


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## Tinaguo (Dec 19, 2021)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Well. It's great that Tina never had to go through any crap in her career. But effectively, her post could be taken as "_well, I the famous person, personally never had any issues. Maybe you shouldn't believe everything you hear._" Which makes me think about in which way this relates to the whole _"believe women" _sentiment. Not trying to insinuate that this was her intention, but stuff like this kind of tends to put the brakes on the discourse.


Thank you for referring to me as a "famous person" but please keep in mind I started from zero- and I clearly stated that I have dealt with plenty of trying circumstances. I am also a woman, so the "believe women" statement applies to me too, and should not only apply if it matches your own preconceived belief system. There are no brakes on any discourse, and to insinuate that I'm not allowed to give my opinion or share my experience is quite ignorant.


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## Zamenhof (Dec 19, 2021)

Mike Greene said:


> proving my general theory that _"99% of the people here 'get it'."_


I think the percentage of people 'getting it' is generally quite high in our line of work. And considered how cool our trade is (at least in my eyes), the number of MeToo cases have been moderate.

However, last year in Denmark we had an ugly MeToo case in our nation's pride, the Danish National Symphony Orchestra. It wasn't a case of a few rotten apples, the whole basket was decomposing. Reports talked about a sexist and uncomfortable vibe in the orchestra. Women were refered to as 'b*tches', and some were even sexually assaulted. Being young, being foreign and being a woman was especially risky. Learning about this, I was really disappointed and even disillusioned.



Tinaguo said:


> It's a difficult path as any artistic one is, and requires a mixture of skill, patience, determination- and yes, luck.


I completely agree and I would like to add "kindness" to the required skill set. Success in the musical world is naturally based on merits, but being a kind person is not to be underestimated. If you're talented but a PITA to work with, more and more doors will remain closed. Creative people need a positive working environment and rely heavily on networking. Hopefully, that itself will put a damper on the number of abuse cases.


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## Loïc D (Dec 19, 2021)

Tinaguo said:


> Thank you for referring to me as a "famous person" but please keep in mind I started from zero-


Hmmm I wouldn’t say that.
I’d say you started from 8, like in hours a day of practicing cello 

Welcome here, we’re glad to have you sharing your extraordinary experience.


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## quickbrownf0x (Dec 19, 2021)

Tinaguo said:


> Hello Everyone! I hope you're having a great weekend. I read through every post in this thread and appreciate all the insight and information here.
> 
> I started doing small recording sessions at age 18 when I first arrived in Los Angeles, and although I felt like older session players initially lacked respect for me- I don't attribute that to my gender, but rather the same "vetting" period and curiosity for any new young player coming into the scene. I played in the orchestras for a couple years, but my focus was always on solo work and I focused on building that side of my career by obsessively focusing on my brand as a solo musician.
> 
> ...



Well, it's encouraging to hear it's not all gloom and doom, at least for some and hopefully for the majority. A few posts back I was beginning to think it's just a bunch of animals out there, jeez. 

So yeah, thanks for the well-balanced response, Tina.


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## vitocorleone123 (Dec 19, 2021)

Mike was doing some cleanup and my post was caught in the crossfire (no hard feelings and I totally understand as the reason was kindly provided and it wasn’t anything I said).

Key points of my post as best I remember them that were not related to the clean up issue were:

1) Systemic issues like sexism mean everyone has to do their part as outlined earlier by those who experience it everyday. No one person can solve it, but, together, we can make it better. Thank you to everyone that are sharing their personal experiences.

2) A.Dern: as the father of a teenage young woman, your story about your father brought literal tears to my eyes. You are an amazing person for not letting anyone, even a parent, crush your aspirations or prevent you from achieving your goals.


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## sharon farber (Dec 19, 2021)

This is a very complicated issue that has a long way to go in order to be truly fixed. I've been working steadily in the industry for a long time, but it always felt like I needed to prove myself again and again, harder than any other male composer.

When I started, I worked under the pioneer of women film composers, the great Shirley Walker. As Shirley was working on WB's animated "Batman and Superman", recording every week at one of the major studios in town. I was orchestrating and then writing for the show and recording with the best of the best. I didn't feel that there were any issues that I needed to be concerned about; That only became evident when I started my individual path as a composer. That's when I realized that the road to equality is long and hard. Here are a few "excerpts" of my experiences:

One of the first directors I worked with suggested that I "move in" with him and he would give me all his movies to score. He was so generous!

Only two or three years ago, I lost a TV series because I would't sleep with the director. The minute I said "no" he took me out of IMDB and blocked me.

There was an incident where I was recording a full orchestra for a film I scored. During the break, in the control room, there were the director, recording engineer, conductor (I usually conduct but this was a foreign orchestra and I wanted to save time as the players didn't speak English), music editor, assistant engineer and a few more guys. I was the only woman in the room. The director loved my music and was very happy with the session, and still chose to say something (and I don't even remember what it was) that he would never have said to a man. So, what should I do? If I say something, I'm a drama queen. If I don't- he'll do it again, and I wasn't OK with him doing it again. So I asked to speak privately to him and asked him why he said what he said. His reply? _"Oh, darling, were you hurt? I'm sorry"_... And my reply was: _"It's not about hurt and I'm a "darling". It's about RESPECT and if you want MY respect to you, then you have to respect me as well. You chose me out of many composers because you love my music. Why would you even THINK of saying something like that?"_ I was angry but kept my cool and then he TRULY apologized, said he was out of line and that it won't happen again. And t didn't. But I had to stand up and not let him, or anyone, bring me down. Now, there are many women who would not have the ability to do so for many reasons and it's a shame, because we must speak out when needed.

There was that studio exec. who, when heard I was pregnant, said _"ok, see you in 18 years"_. I guess it was supposed to be a joke, but it really wasn't because he truly believed that you can't be a mom and a working composer. Well, I can tell you that women are strong and resilient. I was back to work within 2 DAYS of giving birth because, hey, I had a deadline and I would never miss a deadline. We are professionals and we deliver on time.

So there are indeed still many obstacles. Many talk the talk but are very far from walking the walk when it comes to actually hiring female composers. Concert directors are having special evenings of "music by women" but why? Why can't the music of women be programed the same way as men?

However, there is indeed a change on the horizon, although sometimes it feels like we're going one step forward and 3 backwards. But there are many wonderful people who do their best to help bring a change, as they believe in the talent and abilities of women. We are grateful to those who bring the issue to light and make a true effort to make a difference. And women DO score more movies and TV/games today. Yes, we're still at around 3-5% but we are all hoping that in the next few years, this gap will diminish and we'll see more equality that will benefit the industry and audience alike. I feel positive that we are in the right direction!

I am currently in the final stages of scoring a film that brings to light the treatment of women in the industry, called BRAINwASHED. It will premiere at Sundance on 1.22.22 and I have a feeling it will bring the conversation to the forefront. I sure hope so, as we all need this conversation in order to see a much needed change. Thank you to all the men here who support us- it is much appreciated.


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## quickbrownf0x (Dec 19, 2021)

sharon farber said:


> This is a very complicated issue that has a long way to go in order to be truly fixed. I've been working steadily in the industry for a long time, but it always felt like I needed to prove myself again and again, harder than any other male composer. When I started, I worked under the pioneer of women film composers, the great Shirley Walker. As Shirley was working on WB's animated "Batman and Superman", recording every week at one of the major studios in town. I was orchestrating and then writing for the show and recording with the best of the best. I didn't feel that there was any issues that I needed to be concerned about; That only became evident when I started my individual path as a composer. That's when I realized that the road to equality is long and hard. here are a few "excerpts" of my experiences:
> 
> One of the first directors I worked with suggested that I "move in" with him and he would give me all his movies to score. He was so generous!
> Only two or three years ago, I lost a TV series because I would't sleep with the director. The minute I said "no" he took me out of IMDB and blocked me.
> ...


Jesus, what a mess, Sharon. Can't believe this stuff is still going on. Sorry you had to go through all that bullshit. Good to hear times are changing, even if it's just baby steps. Thanks for sharing some of your experiences.


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## Alex Shapiro (Dec 19, 2021)

Greetings, colleagues!

I really appreciate this important conversation, and Mike Greene's attention to moderating it well and actively reaching out to women in the field for further perspective and commentary.

@A.Dern, @Tinaguo, and @sharon farber have written beautifully and powerfully about their experiences and observations, and I admire them greatly not only for their fine musicianship, but for their ongoing positive online presence in our music community. A.Dern's posts in this thread are impressively thorough, and should be published widely so that those unaware of the many nuances of inequity that persist in the music industry can gain an excellent, if utterly painful, overview. She covers so much vital ground, there's little I can add, but I'm compelled to repeat a deeply important point that she and others here have made:

The only way to put a major dent in the perpetuation of harassment and inequity is for each of us who witness it, either as a victim or as an observer, to SPEAK UP. This is precisely how the #metoo awareness came to be. The fall of Weinstein, Cosby, the former head of NARAS (whose name I won't mention here to avoid hilarious scroll-confusion), and the late James Levine and other conductors and teachers in the concert music world, are just a few of the recent high profile examples of the positive events that can happen when those who have been abused come to the fore. Yes, there are understandable factors that inhibit people from stepping forward. But unless the majority of us all just scream "F#$% THIS S#%T!" and choose to act bravely whenever possible, even if it means putting ourselves at risk, we are destined for more of the same, because our collective silence normalizes the abhorrent behavior.

I'm a new VI-Control member and many of you here don't know me, so by way of introduction: I'm a composer, engineer, writer, and music publisher who lived in L.A. from 1984-2007 and since then has been living and working on San Juan Island, WA. The first 15 years of my career were spent scoring projects for low budget features, TV, games, pop songs, and corporate videos, plus a few engineering gigs. In the late 90s I shifted my career over to concert music, and that's the arena with which I'm most associated, writing many large ensemble electroacoustic and multimedia works as well as chamber music. If you happen to be an ASCAP member, you've spotted my name every two years on your ballot, as I've been one of your representatives on its board of directors since 2014, as ASCAP's sole Symphonic & Concert writer (the first woman to hold that seat in the org's 108 years, which I only note for the context of this thread). So, I'm familiar with multiple parts of our field, and can report on the ultra-powerful microscope still needed to find women and people of color in the credits and programs, and behind the [oft-virtual] mixing boards! Ha!

Progress IS being made, if at a seemingly glacial pace, precisely because so many people are indeed speaking up, and raising awareness. Harassment and equity are two separate, but related, issues. One is illegal, and the other is exacerbating. Both can be deeply influenced and improved by the power of media and ongoing conversations. Please, everyone: keep the conversation going!

For those in the concert music realm, you might be interested in a web page I created a few years ago of aggregated links to resources through which presenters and educators can discover thousands of diverse composers. It also includes a number of talking points with regard to DEI topics. I encourage you to share it: Programming Resources. Peace!


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## sharon farber (Dec 19, 2021)

Thank you my dear friend. Alex is an exceptional composer and a remarkable business woman who I admire and have admired for years - there is so much to learn from her! Her point is extremely important and critical to moving forward. We need to speak up as a community!

Alex also reminder me that I have not introduced myself, so here we go:

I'm a Film, TV and concert music composer, member of the Executives Committees of both the Motion Pictures and TV Academies (which means that change IS talking place), Four - time Emmy Award Nominated, Board member of ASCAP, Vice-president of the Alliance for Women Film Composers, Winner of the Society of Composers and Lyricists Award for “Outstanding work in the Art of Film Music”, the Visionary Award in Music by The Women’s International Film & Television Showcase, and winner of the Telly Award.

I have been working with networks and cable broadcasters like NBC, CBS, Showtime, Lifetime and the WB as well as writing music for feature films and documentaries. I'm honored to be one of 9 female composers featured at Lincoln Center, at the historical “Women Warriors” concert, curated by Maestra Amy Anderson that is currently under GRAMMY consideration. 

I am currently scoring the feature documentary from award winning director Nina Menkes, “Brainwashed- Sex-Camera- Power”, which will have its premiere at the prestigious Sundance Film Festival January 22nd, 2021. 

My Corona project, which arranged and produced with the United Nations’ Corona relief fund, “I’m Standing With You”, in collaboration with 12 time OSCAR nominee Iconic song-writer Diane Warren and award winning Director Gev Miron, features 17 lead singers from virtually every continent and 160 singers and instrumentalists. It is the largest scale project of its kind.  

I'm also active in the concert music world, and have many national and international credits and commissions including The Los Angeles Master Chorale, Pacific Serenade Ensemble, The Northwest Sinfonietta, Juilliard School of Music and many more, in venues such as Carnegie Hall, Lincoln Center (NY), Disney Hall, Dorothy Chandler Pavilion (LA), and internationally


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## creativeforge (Dec 19, 2021)

sharon farber said:


> I am currently in the final stages of scoring a film that brings to light the treatment of women in the industry, called BRAINwASHED. It will premiere at Sundance on 1.22.22 and I have a feeling it will bring the conversation to the forefront.


Thank you for sharing your views and experiences, Sharon and from what I read - I VERY MUCH look forward to seeing the film get online viewing!

Camera motions have long been a pet peeve of mine, often making me fast forward due to the explicit and blatant intent of the directors who use this "shot" to create a bubble of lust (voyeurism which does not even serve the story, except to show the 'guy' got the 'girl'). Maybe it's not always as their personal choice but more like a favor, a token few seconds of "sexy" to please someone higher up in the food chain. To get funding. Yet, considering as movies are also teaching tools...

In the same vein, or along similar lines in the world of cinema, I would encourage anyone to also watch the documentary _Adrienne_ release recently. Adrienne Shelly's widowed husband telling the story, with many clips and comments from Adrienne herself. Who knew?

Peace,

Andre


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## Arbee (Dec 19, 2021)

Since this thread is specifically about female composers I don’t want to take the conversation too wide, but as a father of two highly educated and professionally successful daughters I have a very keen interest. I’ve worked in medical science, music and technology across five decades in male dominated, female dominated and balanced work environments. These are just some of my thoughts and observations based on that experience and that of my own daughters.

Sleazy male creeps and “obsessives” are thankfully a very small percentage of the male species, but they get more oxygen in male dominated environments and in more senior roles. There is currently a news story doing the rounds about our male dominated Australian Parliament House in Canberra that is a real eye opener. I suggest it will take at least another couple of generations to get this truly sorted, and many, many more in some cultures around the world.

I try to separate gender discrimination from sexual predatory behavior, and separate both of those from narcissism. I see them as different issues that often overlap but not always. For example, I’ve worked in the book publishing industry, a 95% female dominated environment, and seen some atrocious treatment of women by women. While I’ve worked with and for a lot more male narcissists than female, I’d say the female narcissists I’ve worked for were in fact worse in their entitled treatment of others, though not sexually.

Our youngest daughter works in the field of carbon and energy management, a very balanced gender industry. It has a few male creeps (customers, suppliers, partners etc) but they are quickly starved of oxygen and manageable. Our eldest daughter however is a physically attractive senior police detective and, as you can imagine, she has had her share of challenges along the way. On the downside are the touchy-feely types, the misogynists and dinosaurs, but on the upside are the arrogant, high profile, narcissistic pedophiles who regularly underestimate our daughter’s detective skills (a “good day at the office” as she calls it J). She has thankfully found that balance between enjoying her femininity, commanding professional respect in the workplace with good humor, promoting gender equality and inclusiveness, and embracing her private roles as a loving wife and mother. Without wishing to trivialize or swing the argument too far the other way, she is frequently asked how she manages her mostly male crew so effectively, and she laughs as she opens her desk draw to reveal a large pack of chocolate frogs.

I’m proud to have been “that guy” who called out the CEO for instinctively assigning the meeting minute taking to the only female in the board room. I’m proud to be the guy who made some of his best hiring decisions by harvesting highly professional mothers returning to work and giving them flexible hours. I’m also proud to be the guy who triggered snickers and outright laughter in the board room when he suggested recruiting female courier drivers to work within school hours (we mustn’t forget that maximum parcel weights for manual handling are very modest these days).

Another angle to this that my wife and I often talk about is sexual innuendo and humor. We met in a medical lab in the seventies and the gender balance was probably about 60:40 male:female. Our boss was male, near retirement, a lovely man, and good humored sexual innuendo was an everyday occurrence. Despite that, _no-one_ felt threatened and it lightened the daily grind. The laughs we all had so often would not be tolerated these days and HR would now fire us all on the spot, male and female!

So what am I saying? This is a very complex, multi-threaded issue and it has longer to run yet to rebalance gender relationships and to “de-normalise” these dark and damaging behaviors. In the same breath, we are also very quick to judge yesterday’s behaviors by today’s standards, though that certainly doesn't make sexual coercion ever OK in any context.

Apart from improving parental and other role model influences on boys and young men, one thing I would do immediately is to close every single sex boys school (I attended one for a few years, and then a co-ed one for comparison). I do accept that this shift is already unsettling for many males who’ve grown up with the alpha stereotype, and it is undoubtedly resulting in a loss of identity and mental health challenges for some. While this pendulum is still swinging, I do hope we can one day return to enjoying and celebrating our gender identity and sexuality with good humour and without feeling threatened. For now however I accept that we have to go through some very serious reflection.

Sincere thanks to all of you who have spoken up and contributed to this thread.


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## Mike Greene (Dec 20, 2021)

Alex Shapiro said:


> The fall of Weinstein, Cosby, the former head of NARAS (whose name I won't mention here to avoid hilarious scroll-confusion) ...




For those who don't know the story, the former head of NARAS (the Grammys), who was fired because there were so many sexual harassment lawsuits against him, was none other than ... Mike Greene. Yep. Don't bring out the pitchforks just yet, though, because it's a different Mike Greene. I swear!

Sharing that same name was handy back in the days when I was calling up record companies to try to get artists signed. _"This is Mike Greene ... "_ had a way of getting calls answered! (Which for anyone familiar with record companies, is near impossible otherwise.) It was great. I even got Grammy tickets mistakenly sent to me once.

Sadly, the glory days ended, though, and sometimes I'll even get the occasional angry comment on Facebook where people think I'm him. Then again, it could just be right wing guys who got banned from the forum ...


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## Mike Greene (Dec 20, 2021)

On a more serious note, thank you @sharon farber and @Alex Shapiro for sharing!

I met Sharon and Alex years ago at SCL and Film Music Network events. Just casual chats, like with other young composers I'd meet, where our careers had endless possibilities. (I miss those days.) These events were predominantly male (golly, who would have guessed?) and predominantly composers still looking for that first gig. So Alex and Sharon stood out, since not only were they women, but they were also already getting traction as composers.

I've sometimes wondered over the years what their experiences were like, with regard to being a woman in this industry. I'm married to a woman, I've had women clients, and I've competed against women composers, so I had my theories. But I don't really _know_. Which is why these posts from Anne-Kathrin, Tina, Sharon and Alex are so valuable.

So again, thank you!


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## DrSgtShock (Dec 21, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> I got into this with some other (male) member on here, responding to a FB post by someone else (also male) who has written demos most of us have heard, a couple years back. When Native Instruments posted something. I realized after a decent back and forth that changing peoples’ minds was very difficult.
> 
> And sometimes age seems to come into play. For both men and women.
> 
> ...


The deficiencies that third wave feminism addresses include intersectionality and achieving egalitarian cultural attitudes towards women rather than mere legal parity — both vital to addressing issues like the kinds described in this thread. Second wave feminism made many strides but like the wave before it, it was limited in scope and placed the needs of cisgendered, heterosexual white women before those of all women. The issue described here (and many like it) can easily be compounded by race, nationality, sexuality, and whether or not someone is trans, so I find second wave feminism antiquated and woefully insufficient here—especially when one considers that #metoo is widely considered to be started by a black feminist.


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## Dominik Raab (Dec 21, 2021)

Mike Greene said:


> For those who don't know the story, the former head of NARAS (the Grammys), who was fired because there were so many sexual harassment lawsuits against him, was none other than ... Mike Greene. Yep. Don't bring out the pitchforks just yet, though, because it's a different Mike Greene. I swear!


For some reason, this reminds me of that one time when a list of potential sexual abusers in British politics was leaked. Why does this remind me of— … Oh, right. Dominic Raab was on it.

No relation.

---

Most of the points I was going to make to actually contribute to this thread have already been made, so in the interest of not reiterating things over and over, I’ll stick to one thing @Tinaguo mentioned in her post. I’m focusing on this because it hasn’t been brought up yet—please do not perceive this as an attack on you, Tina! Big fan, not looking for a fight. 



> Yes, this was inappropriate behavior on his part, but I guess I don't view that as "abuse" because I never allowed anything to develop and was extremely clear with my boundaries.



Would it be accurate to describe this as an *attempt* at abuse that you stopped before it could become an actual instance of abuse? Because I think your mainly positive experience might stem from the fact that you know how to set boundaries and aren’t afraid to do so. That is by no means a common trait of every woman in the industry (or man, see below)—but women who haven’t learnt how to set their boundaries yet are often seen as naive or weak, when they were often simply socialised to never say no or are afraid of the consequences of saying no.

If you hadn’t set your boundaries (and if the male composer hadn’t stepped in, which, apparently was what prompted this creep to stop!), it might have escalated. The idea that some of those guys only stop when a guy tells them to is indicative of the very problem that is being discussed here. You setting your boundaries *should have* stopped this. The fact that it didn’t betrays some creepy guys’ opinion on whether or not to respect a “no” voiced by a woman, sadly.

You did everything right in that situation, and perhaps you avoided other similar situations by always asserting yourself. Abusive men have a tendency of finding women who *don’t *assert themselves and *don’t* know how to set boundaries. “Easy targets”, in their point of view. Maybe you weren’t targeted nearly as often as other women simply because abusive men could sense that their tactics weren’t going to work on you.

I am, of course, happy that you didn’t experience this to the same degree that other women in the industry often do! I appreciate your call for scrutiny and investigating rumours more closely prior to grabbing a pitchfork and joining the witch hunt—and I understand you weren’t trying to invalidate other women’s perspectives.

The inherent danger of ‘strong women’ (for a lack of a better word and as shorthand for women who set boundaries and don’t get caught in abusive tactics) sharing their experiences, from my point of view, is that women who *can’t *do that for whatever reason might perceive themselves as ‘weak’. Society likes to victim-blame; society likes to tell survivors of harassment and abuse: “You didn’t stop it. You could have said no. You should have set boundaries.” That’s dangerous. The perpetrators of abuse did something reprehensible. Their ‘victims’ didn’t.

The expectation of having to set boundaries is a one-sided one primarily targeting women, too. In the vast majority of cases, men are the perpetrators and women are the targets. Men don’t get told that a certain event is their fault because they didn’t set clear boundaries. In a twisted way, it becomes a woman’s job to manage the greed and egocentrism of abusive men around her. *She *needs to set boundaries because *they* are abusive. *She* needs to say no because *he* wants something and won’t stop until he gets it. *She *needs to voice her discomfort because other men aren’t stepping in when they witness a situation. Some women, like you, excel at that—and I’m glad they do! Some don’t. They are the preferred targets for abusers. I don’t see how that’s their fault.

For the sake of clarity: I’m not saying *you *implied that it’s their fault. I’m saying society and the industry often do. This previous paragraph is not targeted at you specifically.

Regardless, thank you very much for sharing your experience. It’s valuable and insightful.


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## musicbyjoao (Dec 21, 2021)

I should state that I haven’t read the reply’s but I do know someone close who’s a sexual assault survivor. When she told me about it my first thought was “why didn’t you tell me this before? I would’ve beaten the crap out of them”. Of course, it’s not an easy thing to share such a story.

I’m not adding anything to this conversation but because of I know someone close I felt I had to pitch in.

If anyone needs an ear, I’ll happily lend one via PM.


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## A.Dern (Dec 21, 2021)

ghostnote said:


> Here're my two cents to this whole conversation:
> 
> I won't debate the "It's a mans world" and "It's a competitive field" arguments because composing music should not be a profession of power, because it's based on talent, well idealistically it should be, but... nah I won't go there today.
> 
> ...


This is woefully ignorant.

First of all: "On the contrary, there have been plenty of charges against men harrasing women at the workplace which turned out not to be true." Name one example from our industry where that happened. Who was accused of something and turned out to be innocent? I keep hearing some men claim this whole "false accusation" scenario but where are all those cases? If you put 100 women into a room and asked them who has experienced sexual harassment, I assure you close to 100% would raise their hands. If you put 100 men into a room and asked them who was falsely accused of sexual misconduct, how many would raise their hands? One? None? The point here is that one of the two is common and the other isn't. So let's not pretend they are equal problems.

Secondly: "To my female composers out there: Get tough and learn to say no. Let Just your talent speak. It's the only thing that counts." Seriously? Get tough? Learn to say no? I did say no. I reported it. Nothing was done and I lost my income, almost lost my immigrant status, and was blacklisted by another company who didn't want that "difficult" woman. So what now, genius? This is victim blaming 101. I would have loved to just "let me talent speak" but that's not how this works.


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## Arbee (Dec 21, 2021)

A.Dern said:


> Get tough? Learn to say no? I did say no. I reported it. Nothing was done and I lost my income, almost lost my immigrant status, and was blacklisted by another company who didn't want that "difficult" woman. So what now, genius? This is victim blaming 101. I would have loved to just "let me talent speak" but that's not how this works.


Given how much stress and misery is created for a victim throughout the reporting process and beyond, if you really wanted to make a _false_ sexual harassment, rape or abuse claim, you would be even more likely to lose the will to continue with it. These are not my words, those of our police detective daughter who deals with this every day.


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## A.Dern (Dec 21, 2021)

LudovicVDP said:


> May I ask you a honest question? Do you see a pattern in the age of the people who (intentionally or not) misbehave? Like are they mostly from the "Dad brings money back home while Mum has the dinner ready when he's back" generation? Or are young men as guilty as the old ones? With all those MeToo and awereness arising, does it tend to be better with younger generations?
> I guess my question is: Is there hope?
> 
> Thanks for your posts.


This is a tricky one because I don't like to make generalizations about any generation. What is noticeable is the amount of awareness that comes with each new generation and what kind of social behavior they've been taught (Lord knows, I'm still unlearning a lot of nonsense). It's true that I got the least amount of disrespectful behavior from Millennials and under. This could also be a side effect of the younger generations not being in positions of power yet though, so it remains to be seen if we're really that much more woke or not (can't abuse power if you don't have any). Here's a little story though, that gives me hope:
I was in a meeting a little while ago and even though I was the creative lead on the project this one guy - very much my senior and higher up in the food chain - just kept interrupting me. Even when I was asked for my opinion or workflow ideas, he'd wouldn't let me finish a goddamn sentence. He only did this with me though, not with any of the guys in the meeting. I noticed it but I was gonna let it go the same way I always let these little things go. Not my first rodeo, and I wasn't gonna be "difficult" about it and make a scene for something this small. GenZ, however, has no such inclinations. There was one very young guy in his early or mid 20s and after a while he ended up saying "Yes, this is great but I really wanted to hear what Anne had to say before you interrupted her." Insert shocked Anne face. He did NOT just say that. This happened several times during the meeting where he'd just go "I'm sorry, you just interrupted Anne and I was very interested in her workflow idea". I didn't even have to do anything, it just felt so good to know this behavior was being seen by someone other than me. The older guy also pulled the thing where he would repeat my idea and sell it as his own and GenZ dude went "So basically what Anne proposed earlier?" That was the first time I experienced a guy notice this behavior AND call it out. Was it absolutely necessary? No. Did it feel really good? YES! The other people in the meeting didn't say anything about this but it's very telling that the "interrupter" was not invited to the next meeting which then happened to go a lot more efficiently for some reason. It's the little things and it seems GenZ from what I'm experiencing isn't pulling any punches.


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## Mike Greene (Dec 21, 2021)

A.Dern said:


> ... and I was blacklisted by another company who didn't want that "difficult" woman.


This is an important point. Standing up for what's right often comes at a cost. I know the guys Anne-Kathrin is talking about (these are not nobodies, and they're very likable guys), so it's no surprise that blacklisting, or at least extra scrutiny, would be a consequence.

In fact, this is exactly why aspiring actresses or newscasters kept their mouths shut about the Harvey Weinsteins and Roger Ailes's of the world. To complain means that other studios will be wary of that humorless bitch who couldn't take a little "harmless flirting." Even on a less Hollywood level, secretaries of yesteryear obviously didn't _enjoy_ bosses slapping their asses or other indignities. But to complain ... I think we all know what happens then.

Two other composers I reached out to specifically said they don't want to post because they feared repercussions. This is a big part of why I'm so impressed by Anne-Kathrin, Tina, Sharon and Alex for speaking out.


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## A.Dern (Dec 21, 2021)

Women do this for other women all the time by the way. It's called amplifying. If a woman has a great idea in a meeting but is dismissed or talked over, another woman will pick up the idea again in some way ("To build upon what X said earlier..." or "I liked X's approach to this topic..." or "Why don't we try X's solution to this problem..." or "To reiterate what X said..." or "I'd love to hear more about X's idea she mentioned earlier..." etc.). That is of course if the idea is good and was wrongfully dismissed. An amplified shitty idea is still a shitty idea.

Here's another example of useful amplifying:
I was called a few months ago by a couple of producers I have a long standing work relationship with. They needed me to fix an orchestral arrangement of a song and also wanted me to attend a recording session and supervise the mix to make sure they'd get the results they wanted. The guy they had hired was basically not inspiring confidence. So I fixed his (arguably bad) arrangement over night and attended the session with his ensemble. They were okay but definitely not experienced so there were some issues with timing and tuning. To my surprise and delight, we had a female recording engineer and mixer. She was very young but did a great job. The old dude however decided to sit on the couch the entire time and bark orders at her. I mean, get this, two women had to be brought in to fix his music / recordings but he would sit there like a confident king in his castle rudely barking orders as if nobody else knew what they were doing. He was also going to take full credit for this work since it was in his contract (which was fine by me, I only did this as a favor to the producers who ended up hiring me on several other feature films since). I knew he wasn't gonna be hired again and I had the longest standing relationship with the producers so for once I actually had some power. I could see the engineer was getting flustered by this guy, especially with the producers watching, so I started to complement her on her work. The producers knew that I know a lot about tech stuff so my judgement means something to them. And the engineer clearly knew what she was doing - she heard all the imperfections and was fixing them. But it takes time to tune something. It takes time to make take edits. It takes time to fix timing issues across multiple instruments. She was doing all that perfectly but the guy on the couch didn't know anything about Pro Tools and kept talking over her work, "correcting" her, pointing things out (that she was already in the process of fixing). It was annoying and infuriating but being the youngest and least experienced in the room it was clear she didn't want to speak up, especially not in front of the producers. So I kept saying stuff like "Wow, your editing is so fast!" or "Oh nice solution to that tuning issue there, I wouldn't have thought of that." or "Great way to hide the take edit, I should be taking notes!" - Did she know she could do all this? Of course, that skill doesn't just come from nothing. But it clearly calmed her down because a) someone in the room SAW and UNDERSTOOD that she was capable, b) that someone pointed it out to the room, and c) that person was respected by the producers. Just having her back in that moment was something I could do and I'm sure she appreciated it. I also let the producers know later on that I did not appreciate the way this clearly underqualified guy was talking to her and they very much agreed. I also got the Pro Tools session from the engineer later to create the surround upmix and y'all this session was as clean as they come. It looked like the sessions I get from Abbey Road or AIR so this lady not only knows her shit, she's also organized and diligent in her delivery.


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## Marsen (Dec 21, 2021)

These smartasses, interrupting people, which they feel superior over, because of gender or position, are just unconfident.
It does not help in the situation, but it helps to make yourself clear, it's them, who are weak and fighting for their position to be important to the company.

But every awake mind detects this behaviour.
I'm still shocked how females are treated in the business.
The choir of voices, giving contra to such an unsuitable behaviour, should be much larger.

I excuse me for some saying, which is lost in translation. I try to do my best and I appreciate the strong voices in this thread.


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## A.Dern (Dec 21, 2021)

Mike Greene said:


> Two other composers I reached out to specifically said they don't want to post because they feared repercussions. This is a big part of why I'm so impressed by Anne-Kathrin, Tina, Sharon and Alex for speaking out.


Indeed a lot of women fear repercussions. It's the same reason kids don't report the schoolyard bully - very often it only makes it worse when the bully faces no real consequences. The only reason I can speak freely is because I'm no longer dependent on the people who do bad shit. My immigrant status is resolved once and for all (this coming year I'll probably even get my US citizenship) and I'm financially independent, running my own studio. I have more than enough work lined up and there's at least some measure of power that comes with being the head of the music department because I can set the tone in the work environment now. But it took 9 years to get to this point and unfortunately I know of several cases where women turned away from this profession altogether due to the reasons we're discussing here.


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## josephwmorgan (Dec 21, 2021)

A.Dern said:


> Indeed a lot of women fear repercussions. It's the same reason kids don't report the schoolyard bully - very often it only makes it worse when the bully faces no real consequences. The only reason I can speak freely is because I'm no longer dependent on the people who do bad shit. My immigrant status is resolved once and for all (this coming year I'll probably even get my US citizenship) and I'm financially independent, running my own studio. I have more than enough work lined up and there's at least some measure of power that comes with being the head of the music department because I can set the tone in the work environment now. But it took 9 years to get to this point and unfortunately I know of several cases where women turned away from this profession altogether due to the reasons we're discussing here.


Again, Anne-Kathrin- thank you so much for not just speaking up, but getting this whole ball rolling! I’m sad to hear the two composers Mike is speaking of are fearful of speaking out but I absolutely understand the reasoning. 

It is very easy for me as a young nobody (and straight white male) composer in our world to say “I wish there would be a total reckoning and we could expose the creeps in our industry no matter who they are” as I sit in the comfort of my home studio. But it is an entirely different situation for brave women like you to have the courage to speak up, risk their careers, and challenge these individuals in positions of power. 

There are obviously some people on here who just don’t get it- like Mike posted here, 99% of us do, but please don’t let the others bother you. We so appreciate you, your voice, and hearing about your experiences! 

PS see if you can find that engineer’s name so more people know who to hire!


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## mopsiflopsi (Dec 21, 2021)

I don't have a lot to add here, but I just wanted to address people saying we should separate the art from the artist, appraise the skill even of those disgraced artists, etc.: No. We shouldn't.

It's precisely this mental compartmentalization that enables abusers in creative industries. That mentality makes the money men turn a blind eye to all the nastiness as long as the artist in question continues raking the money in from the audience. As much as it pains me to lose a piece of art that used to mean something to me, I don't think any artist or their art is worth the suffering they inflict on others.


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## Eden Reign (Dec 22, 2021)

What traumatised me a lot in that industry is the age limit everybody puts unconsciously on women...when I was below 25 , most people in the music industry were trying to convince me I should sing pedophile songs like " moi lolita" or "les sucettes" in French..(also trying to convince me to take drugs and trying to prostitute me because I looked like an underage teen)...I heard lot of famous women got raped by their producer (lady gaga for instance?) that's not surprise for me, the youngest and most vulnerable you look, the most perverts you attract...

then after 25 many people were trying to convince me that I should lie about my age because I was getting too old to make a career as a singer/artist/music composer and that I should do plastic surgery..

I remember on a film set I met an actress who told me she was lying about her age because she thought no film maker wanted to hire any women older than 25 and she warned me that I could not make a career if I did not lie because everybody was lying..I met other musicians that told me the same..

Despite this I decided to not lie and not do plastic surgery but over time I really witnessed that it was not going in my favour indeed..I remember a particular moment that really disgusted me, I met a big music supervisor/ Manager "Amelie de chassez" (who worked for Roman Polanski so maybe that's why she has such mentality), when she asked my age and I replied "33" by the time, she replied me 'ok then, you must hurry, because you don't have a lot of time ahead of you"...than she just decided to sabotage my album than did something really pervert and twisted...(at first she pretended to be interested by my music and wanting to help, but after she knew how old I was she changed her behaviour ..she proposed me to release my album on her label (for free) because she told me "nobody else believed in me " , but what she managed to do was to block my album so that I and nobody else could share it anywhere on any social platform and it was a pain really to get the rights of my album back...than she said something really mean that "nobody wants to buy your music anyway, because you are not good") I am pretty sure if I lied about my age and told her I was 24 instead she would have been much more enthusiastic lol)

Than once I finally told her that I have life ahead of me and saying this type of things to people can push them to suicide so she should be ashamed of herself (because it's true, it really made me depressed all my life that people constantly put me age limits!!!)

it's not only in the music industry but everywhere...below 25 everybody tells you to hurry to make kids, after 25 people tell you that you should consider plastic surgery and after 30 people tell you, you are too old for everything...

Also that's not the only issues but I lived lot of sexual harassement and there are often perverts contacting me asking me to prostitute me or do sugar baby or other horrible things because it seems that lot of people think that singers or actresses are also prostitutes and that's true for many of them. ( I have to admit that most of the actresses and singers I met or heard of in Paris this is what they do ( I hate the porn / prostitution industry, they use women when they are at their lowest and abuse them. )...

I gave up playing in bands and decided to remain solo also because of the sexual harassement I was going through.

And just recently I met again a sound engineer who also told me I should lie about my age :-(


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## vitocorleone123 (Dec 22, 2021)

I continue struggling with whether to use an emoji or not to these honest, heartfelt and horrible life experiences, especially as someone that 1) doesn't have to live them every day just because I happened to have been born a straight cisgender male, and 2) has a 16 year old daughter (and a 13 year old still exploring who they are - in addition to being loved by their parents).

Instead of an emoji on each one since I don't know which to use, I'll just say: Thank you for sharing. It's important. I'm reading every single post, and will continue being aware and doing my part.


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## Eden Reign (Dec 22, 2021)

Markrs said:


> I'm glad I didn't see that conversation as I would strongly disagree with that persons comments. If you look at performers in an orchestra you have a lot of women. It is not easy to get into an orchestra, it takes dedication and persistence, just like it does to be a composer.


from my experience it is more that people around you make you think you don't have the intelligence and skills to be a music composer because you are a woman....


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## alcorey (Dec 22, 2021)

My wife works in a large Italian restaurant in the US. She is middle aged, of Russian descent, sharp and attractive. She stills waits tables although she is in a management position.

From some of the male guests over the years she has been treated as if she is an available menu option, sometimes rather aggressively. Being Russian, she has even been asked how much her husband paid for her. She is a tough cookie but I know this still cuts deeply into her self-esteem.

She, as well as some of her fellow waitresses, very rarely react to these customers for different reasons, the strongest being they work for tips and do not want to chance being stiffed and the second being they do not want to create a disturbance that could jeopardize their employment or be deemed "trouble" by the owners.

It doesn't stop there either, as her position in management is often challenged by male co-workers and sometimes even female co-workers (you know, she must be sleeping with someone) when actually she has worked extremely hard (as that is her built-in nature anyhow) and has proven her ability to care for and respect the business, employees and customers.

Sadly, it goes on and on because nobody wants to "rock the boat".

I can only console her with whatever words seem appropriate at the time, respect and admiration - but it still falls short of being able to prevent it from happening again and again.

Stay strong and know who "you" are - it helps.


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## Eden Reign (Dec 22, 2021)

vitocorleone123 said:


> I continue struggling with whether to use an emoji or not to these honest, heartfelt and horrible life experiences, especially as someone that 1) doesn't have to live them every day just because I happened to have been born a straight cisgender male, and 2) has a 16 year old daughter (and a 13 year old still exploring who they are - in addition to being loved by their parents).
> 
> Instead of an emoji on each one since I don't know which to use, I'll just say: Thank you for sharing. It's important. I'm reading every single post, and will continue being aware and doing my part.


that's why I do not want to give up, I wasn't raised in a family with parents that educated me and I felt abandoned , so I became an easy prey for predators and it truly destroyed my life..I suffer now for the rest of my life with a PTSD on top of Major Depressive disorder , most of the people that surrounded me were disgusting predators because that's what my toxic parents prepared me for..(I grew up in a very misogynist and racist environnement, my dad admire Hitler and my mom was not allowed to work, she had to stay home to cook and clean and she also lived abuse from her parents as a little girl, she was not educated..So it was just a very toxic atmosphere and I only can remember bad memories from my parents :-( they did not care about my future and well being to be honest. It's like a sad dramatic horror movie.
And that's why I don't want to give up music because I believe I might not be the only one...not all kids are lucky enough to be born in families where the parents educate them and care for them. And now I believe the situation is even worse for kids today because all the predators have complete freedom on the internet..with the horrible messages that I receive through facebook, bandcamp, soundcloud...I can't imagine what little girls/teenage girls go through.. and if their parents are as unconscious as mine...that's why so many girls end up being abused in horrible things like the porn industry, I believe many probably even die because I felt honestly nobody cared for my well being, neither saw me as a human being , I was just piece of flesh.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 23, 2021)

What a fantastic thread. My deepest respect to all women who thrive despite the many unfair challenges they face!


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## ComposerWannabe (Dec 23, 2021)

Arbee said:


> Given how much stress and misery is created for a victim throughout the reporting process and beyond, if you really wanted to make a _false_ sexual harassment, rape or abuse claim, you would be even more likely to lose the will to continue with it. These are not my words, those of our police detective daughter who deals with this every day.


For a normal population, this is true. But there are always those who lack some certain parts in their brains, those with dark personality traits, they actually feel more motivated towards these actions.

Just as there are predators in men, there are some in women.

This is why every single case is unique.


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## Loïc D (Dec 23, 2021)

All the testimonials are really frightening. 
Thank you for speaking out.

What can I say?
Hang on, you’re paving the way for a lot of current and future female composers who hopefully will struggle less.
The elder sisters always have to work harder. 

I wish I could do something but I’m not working in the creative industry.

In my domain (IT), I never witnessed such bad treatment and in my company women & men have exactly the same career and wage (and yes, we do have a fair proportion of female).

I’m just wondering : is there an international association of female composers? 
I think I saw OT collaborating with one, but I’m not sure whether it’s German or European or international…


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## Mikro93 (Dec 23, 2021)

Loïc D said:


> is there an international association of female composers?


Yes, as mentionned in the article post #1 



> In fall 2020, Abadi founded the Female Composer Safety League, a group that now has more than 200 members who network, share advice and participate in weekly meetings online.











#MeToo Missed Us: Female Composers Speak Out


Composers say their vital but often overlooked corner of the industry — still only 1.7 percent female — is rife with harassment, exploitation and worse: "I don’t believe in cancel culture, but I definitely believe in consequence culture."




www.hollywoodreporter.com


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## Polkasound (Dec 23, 2021)

darkogav said:


> Hmm.. so you think older people aren't aware of things and are not not empathic?





darkogav said:


> Without getting into analyzing the wording and sentence structure, the poster used the word GenZ in multiple places in the post to alude to the notion that she believes all "old people" are disrespectful and she does not see this sort of disrespectful behaviors from GenZ and "millenails and under". My english is quite good and I am calling it as a see it,


Do you want to know why so many church festivals in Milwaukee over the last 30 years stopped hiring polka bands? It's because polka bands draw old people, and old people are notoriously cheap -- too cheap to spend money at the bar. Younger generations throw money over the bar like its confetti, so polka bands gradually got replaced by rock bands.

Did I say _all_ old people are cheap? No. I just made a generalization about the cheapness of the elderly generation, and the non-cheapness of younger generations, which I can back with experience. So tell me, am I being ageist here?

I agree with A.Dern's generalization about GenZ, because they grew up in a culture that's become increasingly attuned to identifying things like misogyny and racism as intolerable problems, and they won't hesitate to stomp them out.

I have a friend my age who tends to make a lot of off-color jokes and comments because his dad and his dad's friends were unabashedly racist. He learned the behavior from them. But when he started having children, he stifled his own racism. He stifled it completely for their benefit, and thus his kids grew up having friendships with kids of all different races. The racism in his family, thankfully, came to an end with his GenZ children.


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## Henning (Dec 23, 2021)

Just to say, I'm with Mike on deleting all the posts that try to lead this thread astray. I responded to one of those and it also got deleted, of course. But that's totally alright to keep this thread on track.


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## IFM (Dec 23, 2021)

Thank you all for sharing your stories and continuing to build awareness of what is happening in the industry. A good friend of mine is a metal artist from Canada who was in a fairly well-known band for a while and even in that genre I was unaware of some of the things she and other women had to endure...things like you're not good enough to play this keyboard part or girls can't play guitar. 

I will continue to do whatever I can to be an ally for women in music. 

Chris


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## Alex Shapiro (Dec 23, 2021)

Hi all: in alignment with this particular thread, you might be interested to read a timely article published December 21st in Variety: _After Weinstein Retaliation, Sarah Ann Masse Is Urging Hollywood to Work With Sexual Harassment Survivors__._

It's good to read the many comments here in VI-Control that demonstrate how effective ongoing, forthright conversation is for raising people's awareness. One of the best ways to combat and fix the problems is to get as many folks as possible talking about them!


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## Arbee (Dec 23, 2021)

ComposerWannabe said:


> For a normal population, this is true. But there are always those who lack some certain parts in their brains, those with dark personality traits, they actually feel more motivated towards these actions.
> 
> Just as there are predators in men, there are some in women.
> 
> This is why every single case is unique.


There are of course always unique cases and exceptions, but I suggest most are nowhere near as unique as you might imagine. There are predictable patterns of behavior that repeat time and time and time again.


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## Trash Panda (Dec 24, 2021)

Thank you all for sharing your experiences. It’s saddening to hear such horrendous behaviors have and continue to be normalized, but also good to see that there is hope for it to improve. 

You’re doing great things and I wish you nothing but success!


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## nomiabadi (Dec 27, 2021)

Thank you so much for spotlighting this article and initiating this mature and well rounded conversation. I appreciate the solidarity and strong voices in this forum, and hope the discussion continues. If anyone would like to find out what they can do to help female composers who are victims of abuse and The Female Composer Safety League, please don't hesitate to reach out. Most importantly, please don't contribute to silence breakers like myself becoming blacklisted or retaliated against for speaking up. We are extraordinarily talented and have made unthinkable sacrifices to compete in this industry. You can support us most by believing us, nominating us and hiring us. 

Cheers,
Nomi


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## Tice (Dec 27, 2021)

It can be difficult to read, but I sure am glad this thread is able to exist here! 💚


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## CSS_SCC (Dec 29, 2021)

Just to add more food for thought:
Gender pay gap at UK’s biggest firms is growing, data suggests​Exclusive: women’s median hourly rate on average 10.2% less than men’s, compared with 9.3% in 2018









Gender pay gap at UK’s biggest firms is growing, data suggests


Exclusive: women’s median hourly rate on average 10.2% less than men’s, compared with 9.3% in 2018




www.theguardian.com


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## nomiabadi (Dec 30, 2021)

Mikro93 said:


> Yes, as mentionned in the article post #1
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Women composers are encouraged to join the Female Composer Safety League. Please visit our website (www.femalecomposersafetyleague.org), join the secure and active private group on Facebook (for women composers only), and follow our Instagram page (@femalecomposersafetyleague).


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## CSS_SCC (Jan 28, 2022)

Food for thought:


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## ad (Feb 10, 2022)

It's all so sad...
I went from many years in tech to music/composition, and then back to tech. They're both really bad in terms of diversity and representation, but music/entertainment was way worse (at least in LA, where I was), and that's saying something. It left a bad taste in my mouth. At least in tech the misogyny isn't as wide open, but more insidious (generally speaking).
P.S.: I was also in a band in LA, which brought a whole 'nother level of unwanted advances from the audience.


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