# Question about money



## vlado hudec (Jun 19, 2007)

Hi guys,

I am in contact with one TV from USA which produce documetary films. We discussed about money. I told him,my price is around $300 per minute of original orchestral music. And he wrote me this:

"Our typical rate for original music for a 30 minute program runs from $2,000 to $3,000, which is closer to $125 per minute. But I’ll keep your contact information on file."

In my opinion it is very low budget. What do you think about it? Is this cost correct?

Thanks


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## José Herring (Jun 19, 2007)

That's about right. Documentaries aren't in business to make much money. Budgets are very small. 


In truth I wouldn't talk about money until you're sure you've convinced them that you're the right person for the job. Until you're a known composer the fact the he's willing to pay at all is a big plus.

If the communication is still open with him just take it.

Jose


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## midphase (Jun 19, 2007)

$2k to $3k for 30 minutes is stupid cheap. I personally wouldn't take that gig. I'm not even sure what the exploitation potential of a 30 minute doc really is, most doc channels like History and Discovery generally go with the 1 hour format.

Sounds like a scam to me.


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## Mike Greene (Jun 19, 2007)

I recently did a 1 hour doc for PBS that was part of one of their prime time series (I don't want to say which series, but it's similar to FrontLine.)

I got paid $10,000 for about 35 or 40 minutes of music. I don't do a lot of those, so when the client told me that's what they budgeted, I just said OK. But now I'm starting to think that's also on the cheap side. What do you guys think? Did I get hosed, or is that about normal?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 19, 2007)

Mike, I'd say it's about normal.


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## vlado hudec (Jun 19, 2007)

Mike Greene @ Tue Jun 19 said:


> I recently did a 1 hour doc for PBS that was part of one of their prime time series (I don't want to say which series, but it's similar to FrontLine.)
> 
> I got paid $10,000 for about 35 or 40 minutes of music. I don't do a lot of those, so when the client told me that's what they budgeted, I just said OK. But now I'm starting to think that's also on the cheap side. What do you guys think? Did I get hosed, or is that about normal?



what a coincidence  ..it is also PBS member station,which I mentioned above. 30 minute program, $2000 - 3000 ...so I dont know..


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## José Herring (Jun 19, 2007)

I think people get too hung up on money. If this is your first shot at some legit American programming Vlado just take it. It looks like he's not willing to negotiate and he's telling you exactly what he's willing to pay.

Jose


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## vlado hudec (Jun 19, 2007)

josejherring @ Tue Jun 19 said:


> I think people get too hung up on money. If this is your first shot at some legit American programming Vlado just take it. It looks like he's not willing to negotiate and he's telling you exactly what he's willing to pay.
> 
> Jose



I made some tracks for one library music company from LA. They paid me $125/minute but I have also performance royalties of these this tracks,so I can earn another money from every public share.

But in this case which I mentioned above,$125 looks to be really lowly. I am from Slovakia /Central Europe/. In Slovakia are 2 private TV stations. I contacted one of them before a few weeks and we also discussed about money. I told him also $300/minute and they told Ok. 

That's why $125/ minute for scoring documentary in US territory /market/ really surprised me.


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## José Herring (Jun 19, 2007)

It is low. Too low for most people. But for somebody who's pretty new then it's a chance to work.

Jose


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## VonRichter (Jun 20, 2007)

If you don't want it, pass the gig to me :wink: 

$3,000 is $3,000 more than I have right now.

Cheers,
-VR


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 20, 2007)

Here's the problem:

Composer A really needs the experience (and credit on his/her cv), and the money. He/she is not working full-time as a composer yet, income is from other work.

Composer B has been working for quite while, has a decent list of projects on his/her cv. He/she only makes money from composing soundtracks.

A producer offers very little money (relative to the work involved and the value of original music scored to image) for a given documentary. Composer B passes, but Composer A accepts gladly.

Why is this a problem, you ask? It's a problem because this producer now figures that he/she can always offer just a little money for original music scoring (and recording, mixing, music editing thrown in, of course). Composer A gets experience, and may get used to getting a small amount of money for their work. Composer B gets less and less work and considers accepting a lot less for the same amount of work.

Minimum rates anyone?

Oh, and why should composer A give a sh*t? Because by accepting to work for little money, he/she might never be able to make enough money in a year to work full-time as a composer. Consider: how many soundtracks might you get in a year? 4? 6? At 3K each...


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## Aaron Sapp (Jun 20, 2007)

Unless you have other clients at your doorstep, I would take the gig. One thing I learned late in the game is that when you're starting out, it's important to take all good work - work that either pays well, will get your foot in the door somehow, or will give you a good experience. Scoring practice while getting paid is not a bad deal. If they like your work, then I reckon that'd give you a little more elbow-room the second time around.

Don't be in such a hurry to chase the big dollar starting out. Just take good work.


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## vlado hudec (Jun 20, 2007)

Thanks for comments guys..I think it will be better for me,to take this gig.


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## choc0thrax (Jun 20, 2007)

10 minutes x $125= $1250.00... I bet you have to do around 20 minutes.


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## vlado hudec (Jun 20, 2007)

choc0thrax @ Wed Jun 20 said:


> 10 minutes x $125= $1250.00... I bet you have to do around 20 minutes.



I think the same.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 20, 2007)

My experience is that very rarely can anyone predict exactly how much music will be needed for a given project. You really only can tell once the picture lock is done, based on the temp music. And with a documentary, you may find that it's fine to re-use a cue that is only some texture stuff underneath a lot of talking heads.


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## VonRichter (Jun 20, 2007)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Jun 20 said:


> Why is this a problem, you ask? It's a problem because this producer now figures that he/she can always offer just a little money for original music scoring (and recording, mixing, music editing thrown in, of course). Composer A gets experience, and may get used to getting a small amount of money for their work. Composer B gets less and less work and considers accepting a lot less for the same amount of work.



OK, so the alternative... composer A refuses the work. Composer A never gets their foot into any door. Composer A never makes any money from music period. Composer B keeps their stranglehold on gigs. Composer A dies in a gutter, but he dies happy knowing he made the sacrifice for poor starving composer B.

We all have to start somewhere.

I can score a 30 minute doc with quality music in a jiffy. Compare that to how long it takes to earn $3,000 flipping burgers. No contest. Sorry if it takes away from composer B's Porsche fund or whatever, but that's life in a free market.

It's all a matter of perspective.

I say he should go for the gig. Demand more next time when you have some good credits to show off. Move up to bigger projects... whatever.

Is there any other way? Should composer A sit around playing video games, waiting for the magical love angel to come give them a high-paying gig out of the blue? It's not going to happen unless you have that uncle or dad or whoever with the hookup.

$3,000 is a whole lot better than a 1 year unpaid internship, for example.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 20, 2007)

Yes, we all have to start somewhere. And 3,000 is fine. For 10 or 15 minutes of music. Or for an independent film we think is amazing, or we believe the director is going to be outstanding and is worth 'investing' in. But for 20 or more minutes of music, for something that will air on a national network? That's just exploitation. Doesn't matter if you've got 10 yrs of experience or you're just starting out, you're getting ripped off. I'm not saying don't take the gig, just offer less music unless you're getting min. 200$ per min.


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## VonRichter (Jun 20, 2007)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Jun 20 said:


> Yes, we all have to start somewhere. And 3,000 is fine. For 10 or 15 minutes of music. Or for an independent film we think is amazing, or we believe the director is going to be outstanding and is worth 'investing' in. But for 20 or more minutes of music, for something that will air on a national network? That's just exploitation. Doesn't matter if you've got 10 yrs of experience or you're just starting out, you're getting ripped off. I'm not saying don't take the gig, just offer less music unless you're getting min. 200$ per min.



Good points, and I'm not suggesting that composer XYZ is not worth $200 per minute. Ideally we would live in a world where we get what we deserve for our labors.

It's just awfully hard to feel bad about $125 per minute when you're used to getting $0 per minute and living off of ramen and couches of questionable availability.


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## SvK (Jun 20, 2007)

video games with real budgets pay 1000.00 to 2000.00 $ a minute.

SvK


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## Daryl (Jun 21, 2007)

There is no difference between "new" composers undercutting established ones, and people using sample libraries and cutting out orchestral players. Market forces. I say take the gig if you want to, as until you get credits, you won't get any well paid ones anyway.

D


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 21, 2007)

VonRichter @ 20/6/2007 said:


> Good points, and I'm not suggesting that composer XYZ is not worth $200 per minute. Ideally we would live in a world where we get what we deserve for our labors.



A couple more things to keep in mind:

- Getting 200$ per minute of finished music is not the same as making a lot more than 30 bucks an hour doing computer programming. When you're starting out, making a minute of finished music, including sketches, recording, corrections, mixing, re-writes, etc, might take you more than a day.

- How much are your tools costing you? The computer programmer had to pay for a computer, monitor and some software. You had to also buy decent speakers, a mic or two, interfaces, decent MIDI controller, sample libraries ($$$), musicians, extra hard-drives, another computer, etc, etc.

- Like I said before, consider that you might not get that many gigs in a given year. 200$ a minute sounds huge, until you remember that you might only compose 80 paid minutes all year.


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## vlado hudec (Jun 21, 2007)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Jun 21 said:


> A couple more things to keep in mind:
> 
> - Getting 200$ per minute of finished music is not the same as making a lot more than 30 bucks an hour doing computer programming. When you're starting out, making a minute of finished music, including sketches, recording, corrections, mixing, re-writes, etc, might take you more than a day.
> 
> ...



absolutely agree with you Ned


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## midphase (Jun 21, 2007)

> I think people get too hung up on money. If this is your first shot at some legit American programming Vlado just take it. It looks like he's not willing to negotiate and he's telling you exactly what he's willing to pay.




It's exactly because of that attitude that we find ourselves in the shit-pay market that we have today.

There was a time when a professional composer could afford things like buying a home, or having a reliable car....nowadays I'm not so sure!

On one hand you have the guys who've been around a while and who have managed to keep their budgets high enough....on the other hand the new guys who are getting paid crap to do more and more high-end work.

This is not looking pretty people....can we all just wake up and see what we're doing to ourselves?


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## midphase (Jun 21, 2007)

Case in point....a friend got offered $15k for a $2mil film....all-in package deal. WTF? that's less than 1% of the overall budget. Do you guys think that 10 years ago this would have been considered acceptable?


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## lux (Jun 21, 2007)

VonRichter @ Wed Jun 20 said:


> If you don't want it, pass the gig to me :wink:
> 
> $3,000 is $3,000 more than I have right now.
> 
> ...



Ditto.

You're not American, Vlado. Get the job without doubt. You'll be picky once you have people at the door.

Just my opinion.

Luca


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## José Herring (Jun 21, 2007)

midphase @ Thu Jun 21 said:


> > I think people get too hung up on money. If this is your first shot at some legit American programming Vlado just take it. It looks like he's not willing to negotiate and he's telling you exactly what he's willing to pay.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's complete bullshit imo. You're either going to take a gig or not. If it's paying too low for you then you don't take it. 

Composers 10 years ago got more because it was expected 10 years ago that we would have to hire real players. Now every producer I know knows that that's not true. So while I got $10,000 ten years ago. I had to pay $7,000 in studio and musicians cost to get a product. Not so these days. Unfortunately really. I hate this market place as much as anybody. But let's face it. We're here. So a $3000 gig comes a long. Take it or leave it. If you're starving. You take it. If you're rent's covered you leave it.

People get too hung up on this issue. We don't determine the music budget. We only have power over yeh or ney. 

I have a friend who got offered by Disney $50,000 all in to rescore a feature. He said fuck it. He didn't need the credit or the money. I would have jumped at the chance. So there it is.

Jose


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 21, 2007)

You're right, Jose, we don't have to hire (as many) players anymore, but in the old days, someone else got paid to record (and a studio was rented), to arrange or orchestrate, and to mix. Now, we are expected to do it all ourselves - shouldn't we be compensated for the time and money we have spent to learn these extra skills?


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## VonRichter (Jun 21, 2007)

midphase @ Thu Jun 21 said:


> There was a time when a professional composer could afford things like buying a home, or having a reliable car....nowadays I'm not so sure!



Supply and demand. Technology coming way down in price.

All the wishing in the world will not change reality.

It's not rocket science:


1 Limited work

2 Countless workers

3 Extremely low quality standards across the board


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 21, 2007)

VonRichter @ 21/6/2007 said:


> 3 Extremely low quality standards across the board



Actually, I think there's more than a few studios owned by VI-C members where that's not true.


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## Thonex (Jun 21, 2007)

you can blame a lot of this crappy pay trend on Reality Television. They dumbed down music to the point of wall paper library tracks... and since it works with reality... some producers extend that logic to different types of production and even films. Basically... intellectual property is losing it's value. Of course there are always the exceptions... but I see this as a trend that really took off with Reality TV prodcution.

My opinion.

T


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## dannthr (Jun 21, 2007)

Bah, in 10 years all soundtracks will be dynamically outputted by a computer algorithm and a programmer with half a brain for music.


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## Rob Elliott (Jun 21, 2007)

Two reasons to take a gig:

1. Artisic expression /experience

2. Money (which really means - 'in between gigs')


--not necessarily in that order :wink: 


Rob


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## vlado hudec (Jun 21, 2007)

thanks a lot everyone.

Yes,I'm only beginner,I have 5 companies in my credits. Till now,I obtained max $200/minute (only one track  

But I have noticed,some producers expect,that your music will be the same cost,like library music. I have personal experience with this. But there are a huge difference between library music companies and composers,like me or other guys on this forum.

When library music company sell the music,they can sell the same track i.e. 20 companies. So 20 x $100 = $2000. But these companies must take in mind,that this track can be used enywhere else. So here is no guarantee exclusivity. And secondary..when company buy a track from library music company,the track is finished and they cannot change anything. 

When I make music for anybody,it all about discuss,what is the best for my client and what exactly he need. He can to choose which instruments I have to use,where it has to be quieter,accent on 36th second... And I can change anything according to his wish and guarantee exclusivity. I can sell one /the same/ track only to one client,not 20.

But some people probably dont comprehend this /or cannot comprehend/..and it sucks!
o=<


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## José Herring (Jun 21, 2007)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Jun 21 said:


> You're right, Jose, we don't have to hire (as many) players anymore, but in the old days, someone else got paid to record (and a studio was rented), to arrange or orchestrate, and to mix. Now, we are expected to do it all ourselves - shouldn't we be compensated for the time and money we have spent to learn these extra skills?



Yeah I do think we should be compensated for the extra skills. What's happening with me is that these bone headed producers come to me with some stupid figure of what they're willing to pay for music. They have no clue about all that's involved and worse they don't care.

I was talking to a producer who was doing Nickelodeon projects. He has diddly squat for a music budget. Nickelodeon is sending him library tracks. I asked him if he'd like original music for his cuts. He said yeah, but he doesn't have to pay for the library tracks. Nick owns them.

The truth is that even major studios have gotten into the habbit of paying peanuts for music. It's not about the newer guy undercutting us. It's about the lack of care of producers that are probably just getting diddly squat for budgets to begin with. I don't think that this problem is limited to just music. I think it's systemic.

Thonex is right. Why would a studio pay top dollar on a top notch product when shows like The Bachelor with no talent, no writers shot on cheap video are winning the ratings hands down.

It's a really bad time for all of us trying to make a name for ourselves. The amount of decent paying good quality work is at an all time low. And, I do blame reality TV.

Jose


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## VonRichter (Jun 22, 2007)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Jun 21 said:


> VonRichter @ 21/6/2007 said:
> 
> 
> > 3 Extremely low quality standards across the board
> ...



You misunderstand me :wink: ... I mean the people doing the hiring have low quality standards. This means despite quality music such as that produced by many members of this site, talent/skill may not give a competitive edge when quality is not valued in the first place. :(


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## VonRichter (Jun 22, 2007)

midphase @ Thu Jun 21 said:


> Vlado and I'm sure Von Richter don't want to spend the rest of their lives chasing down crappy paying projects. What they fail to realize is that by the time they get to the point where they've been in the biz for over a decade and they want to start making some real money, the crappy paying gigs will be the real money!
> 
> The current crop of upcoming composers is suffering because of the previous generation of low bidders. This has nothing to do with supply and demand, this has everything to do with composers having ridiculously low self value



I can't really agree. Blaming other composers is as silly as blaming a competing contractor who underbids you. Yeah, those kitchen cupboard doors are going to be falling apart in a month, but welcome to the modern world of disposable garbage.

What does a typical crappy TV show have for a score? A crappy techno loop with a guitar loop on top? A 2-chord string pad drone held for 10 minutes? It's like when you go with the low bidding painters and your house is peeling in a week. The difference is that people have been conditioned to blindly accept garbage media.

We are living in a world of braindead drones who have no interest in quality work of any kind. If anything, quality just confuses them or makes them squirm.

Sure, just keep blaming the composer. It's easier than blaming multi-bazillion dollar monopoly corporations for laying the smackdown on anything resembling critical thought or attention span.

KILL YOUR TELEVISION! >8o :mrgreen: o/~ =o :shock:


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## Chrislight (Jun 22, 2007)

midphase @ Thu Jun 21 said:


> I think the problem started the moment that a guy said "I can't work for that low amount" and some other guy stepped up and said "I'll do it for less and I'll work twice as hard."
> 
> And this keeps happening more and more and more.



Unfortunately, this no doubt happens with every business out there. :( There is always going to be someone (and probably lots of them!) who will do, make, or whatever, something cheaper than the next guy - and there's nothing much you can do about it. We have been dealing with this all along in selling music gear. Much of what we sell is through eBay and there are a ton of people who will accept a $10.00 profit on a $200.00+ piece of equipment. >8o It's totally frustrating but the only thing you can do is decide if you are going to play that kind of game or not. 

When starting out a former business - typesetting/graphics - we were fortunate that one of our first accounts was with a printer who was also an accountant. He told us we were too cheap and needed to raise our prices. His comment was one that has stuck with me - "you never do anything to hurt your own industry" and by undercutting the going market price, that is exactly what you are doing. It would be great if everybody thought and acted that way! Of course, free market enterprise has it's advantages - especially for the consumer that gets cheaper prices, but it can be hell on businesses. Just a reality...


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## lux (Jun 22, 2007)

I Like this thread, lot of interesting points.

I see in this discussion overlapping two different concerns, both important.

One is the right complain about the new trend at lowerage of prices, and often consequentely, of quality provided and people involved. This is actually pretty evident and the points made on this discussion are quite good.

The other aspect is the chance to get the foot in the door. About this matter i think opinions will probably differ a lot depending on where you are located and how much chance your local market gives. Speaking as myself there's simple almost no local market. Then, from my personal point of view, getting the chance (and thats quite difficult if your not native language speaker, nor local) to have a foot in the door in US absolutely worths the effort, and i would say 2-3k are quite a great result money-wise. I wouldnt doubt a minute to accept.

Luca


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 22, 2007)

Luca,

I think one big divide here is between those of us who make our living from composition and those of us who don't. When everything, including rent (or mortgage), food, drink, clothes, music hard+software, insurance, car, etc, etc, must come from what you're paid for writing music, believe me, 2 to 3K for a 6-8 week gig is not much money. Especially since, as I wrote before, the odds are you're not going to be working every month...


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## lux (Jun 22, 2007)

Ned, I see, but from my point of view it looks a bit of a conservative position.

Actually there's people who needs (or really would love to, or just aspire to, or whatever) to reach the status of a professional composer. And not always it has to do with personal abilities. Sometimes, but not always.

Refusing such proposal (even if i doubt it would get two months to do the job) means for some people loosing the only or very few chances to get the above foot in the door. And probably loosing also the chance to have fun doing a musical gig. 

As I stated above, on this matter you'll probably never find a common opinion, once you melt in a thread people from different countries and markets.

Luca


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 22, 2007)

I don't know about that last point, Luca. From what I've heard, it's pretty expensive to live in Italy, no?

Anyhow, I'm not saying that someone starting out shouldn't get opportunities. I'm just saying that it should be for smaller projects, meaning less music at first, say 10-15 minutes or for small-budget independent films. To accept to do 20 minutes or more of music for a documentary that will air on US television for 2 to 3K is hurting everyone.


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## lux (Jun 22, 2007)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Jun 22 said:


> I don't know about that last point, Luca. From what I've heard, it's pretty expensive to live in Italy, no?



i'm afraid you didnt get the point of it. Lets put this way: lets make you have your mentioned bills, food and whatever to pay and your local market doesnt allow you to get neither a minimal monetary chance once you decide to be a composer. Wouldnt you get the chance to get a foot in the door elsewhere, keep alive your dream to work as a composer and have fun? Or would u just refuse it because of some general considerations and get a good bank related job?

I'll state again. You cannot find a common opinion on that. I've seen your kind of reaction many times, and all times it had to do with people working professionally in places where a market does exist. I understand your points. And I invite you to consider things from a different point of view too.

Luca


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## José Herring (Jun 22, 2007)

I think we're missing a fact here. I'm not sure what that fact is so I'm going to have to think about it for a while.

I know several top composers either by phone or personally in LA. These guys ALL do projects for little or no money still! They have bank accounts that rank in the multi millions and yet still I bump into these guys doing low budget next to nothing projects either a long side of or in between their regular big budget gigs.

The reasons they give range from, a chance to work with an up and coming director, to a low budget project that they believe in, to they just want to keep busy to they're trying to break in some new gear or a new studio and don't want to risk handling new gear during a tight deadline on a high profile project.

I think work is work. It's all dependent on the occasion. Makes it tough but it's a tough mark1QNGOy-0004iu-O5-D
<html>
<head>
<title></title>
</head>
<body>
<p>Katy (23 y.o.) wish to chat with you.</p>
<p>She is online!</p>
<p>Her profile and photos are available here:</p>
<p><a href="http://julia201010.com.ua/?uid=2179


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## midphase (Jun 22, 2007)

Luca, Van Richter, Vlado, and all of the new guys who think they got it all figured out (I was like you once).

All I can say is quote the immortal words of Hans and Franz:

"Hear me now....believe me later!"


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## VonRichter (Jun 22, 2007)

Midphase, sounds like you're really just concerned about us fresh talent taking your jobs. :twisted:

0oD


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## midphase (Jun 22, 2007)

Nope Von,

Quite the contrary...plenty of work for everybody. I'm concerned about YOU not being able to buy yourself a home, or raise a family when the time comes!


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## midphase (Jun 22, 2007)

Of course this will all be moot once MTV discovers "Mr. Hot Dog Head" and you will become filthy rich as the 21st century answer to Barnes & Barnes!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzpN9ce_qF0


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## VonRichter (Jun 22, 2007)

midphase @ Fri Jun 22 said:


> Nope Von,
> 
> Quite the contrary...plenty of work for everybody. I'm concerned about YOU not being able to buy yourself a home, or raise a family when the time comes!



Plenty of work for everyone? Hey if that's the case, send some my way! I could use some underwear and some food!  I promise I will demand a high price :-P

PS, that video you linked is amazing and it made my day. Thank you very much!


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## midphase (Jun 22, 2007)

Send me your reel!


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## esteso (Jun 22, 2007)

Here's my experience as a newbie,

I finally got a chance to gain a real credit for a doc and I took it. Local public TV. The producer couldn't make it happen with library music and I told him and his boss that the cues I would provide would beat the pants off anything canned. 

They had no budget. $00.00

I wrote two cues totalling 3 minutes, one was the title track. My purpose was to get the credit and to try to educate them as to the importance of music and budgeting for it. I was promised two paying gigs in the fall. We shall see. One way or the other I'm glad I did it. It's a toe in the door and that's what it's about.

BTW I live in one of the most expensive places in the USA, even more reason to get the ball rolling.


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## lux (Jun 23, 2007)

midphase @ Fri Jun 22 said:


> Luca, Van Richter, Vlado, and all of the new guys who think they got it all figured out (I was like you once).
> 
> All I can say is quote the immortal words of Hans and Franz:
> 
> "Hear me now....believe me later!"



I hear you now. And trust me, i'll believe you too once we'll share same local situation. If it will ever happen.


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