# Problem with logic x Mixer



## wurlt01 (Dec 20, 2016)

My Logic x Mixer track is out of order. Arrange window is correct mixer window has 1 track out of order. how to fix.


----------



## fritzmartinbass (Dec 20, 2016)

At the top of the mixer make sure "tracks" is selected and not "all."


----------



## wurlt01 (Dec 20, 2016)

fritzmartinbass said:


> At the top of the mixer make sure "tracks" is selected and not "all."


was set to tracks. and i havent moved from there. Seems like some bug. im working on making big logic template and have had to start over once. and today had to go back 6 versions and redo. Im making lots of backups so i dont lose more than 20 30 min of work.


----------



## Kent (Dec 20, 2016)

This isn't that thing where the Logic Mixer is non-organizable, right? It's first-come, first-served, although auxes are placed after tracks and making an aux into a track moves it into the "track area" of the mixer...

..You're referring to something else?


----------



## Ashermusic (Dec 21, 2016)

https://ask.audio/articles/creating-multiple-mixer-views-in-logic-pro-x-in-7-simple-steps
https://ask.audio/articles/custom-environment-layers-mixing-logic-pro-9

The latter was written for LP 9 but still applies.


----------



## mc_deli (Dec 21, 2016)

kmaster said:


> This isn't that thing where the Logic Mixer is non-organizable, right? It's first-come, first-served, although auxes are placed after tracks and making an aux into a track moves it into the "track area" of the mixer...
> 
> ..You're referring to something else?


The worst thing is that whatever you do with mixer windows they are not static, they change based on selections in the main window. Drives me nuts. I just want my row of 24 auxes like I had in LP9 but no... I would have to do it in the environment... which is just torture... The "contextual" mixer window functionality has destroyed the mixer window's usefulness for me. I find that I now mix with the horizontal sliders in the main window. So sad so sad... They really should have updated the mixer when they added track stacks... more navigation options, lock options, drag and drop etc etc.... all glaring omissions. Sorry, pet peave.


----------



## Ashermusic (Dec 21, 2016)

mc_deli said:


> The worst thing is that whatever you do with mixer windows they are not static, they change based on selections in the main window. Drives me nuts. I just want my row of 24 auxes like I had in LP9 but no... I would have to do it in the environment... which is just torture... The "contextual" mixer window functionality has destroyed the mixer window's usefulness for me. I find that I now mix with the horizontal sliders in the main window. So sad so sad... They really should have updated the mixer when they added track stacks... more navigation options, lock options, drag and drop etc etc.... all glaring omissions. Sorry, pet peave.



I guess you did not bother to check out my links.


----------



## mc_deli (Dec 21, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> I guess you did not bother to check out my links.


Of course I read them Jay, and not for the first time 

I use multiple mixer windows but there is no way to keep them static if I try to display aux tracks in the mixer windows. They always change, disappear etc based on main window selections.
I have tried to play with the environment. Just trying to tidy up 100 mixer strips in the environment is an almighty pain... it's just way beyond my patience level and last time I tried I had a lot of inconsistent behavior.
I have learnt to live with it... by almost stopping using using the mixer, which, as said, makes me sad


----------



## Ashermusic (Dec 21, 2016)

I am not at my computer, but my memory is that if you have one of the mixers set to show only the auxes and the auxes are hidden in the track list you avoid that issue. 

Anyway creating environment layers is easy and you only need to do it once.


----------



## mc_deli (Dec 21, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> I am not at my computer, but my memory is that if you have one of the mixers set to show only the auxes and the auxes are hidden in the track list you avoid that issue.
> 
> Anyway creating environment layers is easy and you only need to do it once.[/QUOTE)



You are right on the first point but I need to be able to draw automation and have them auxes in the main window.
But easy in the env... nooooo


----------



## Ashermusic (Dec 21, 2016)

OK, here is what I am talking about. I have this spread over a couple of monitors but for the pic I made it one. As you can see 1 Mixer only shows auxes in All view and therefore is not affected by what I select in the Track List. The second mixer only show my software instruments in Tracks view and so it IS affected. Set it up in your template the way you like, lock the screensets, and there you are.






And the first person who writes, "But Jay, I don't want to use templates" gets smacked


----------



## robh (Dec 21, 2016)

You can DO templates in Logic?!? 
*Upper cut*


----------



## charlieclouser (Dec 21, 2016)

If you're trying to deal with hundreds of channel strips then using the Environment really is the way to go. I hate the new-ish Mixer view in the Arrange with a passion, simply because it only reflects what is going on in the Arrange, so I hardly ever use it.

In the Environment, however, you can create VAST arrays of objects that are persistent and don't move or change no matter what you do in the Arrange. This is how I've worked for years, and I don't understand the frustration with the Environment. You can make large color coded labels (which are actually Fader objects set to button mode with a value range of 1), precisely align any selected group of Objects (using the commands "Align Objects", "Positions By Grid", etc.) and it's really the way to go if you want FULL control over what objects appear and where. You can also open multiple Environment windows and size and scroll each one to display only what you want. Here's a picture of what my output matrix looks like in the Environment - at the top are seven surround stem sub-masters (with label objects) and a composite mix surround sub-master and stereo out object (for making quick bounces), below them are the front and rear reverb and delay Aux objects that correspond to each stem, and at the bottom are the Track Stack master faders for each of sixteen times 16-channel VEPro instances. Off to the right are 224 instances of EXS-24, 128 audio tracks, and 256 channels of VEPro. For me that's a lot, and it was trivial to set it all up - maybe an hour or two. Nothing moves or changes as I make a mess by adding and deleting tracks in the Arrange window, and if I want to do a cue with only five tracks in the Arrange then I can do so - and THEN I can make use of the Arrange Mixer because it will only show those objects that have tracks in the Arrange. My utility objects like ReWire inputs, the Master Fader (which allows me to trim ALL 64 hardware outputs at once), and stuff like that all stay where I put them no matter what. 

Can you tell that I love the Environment?


----------



## charlieclouser (Dec 21, 2016)

And here's a shot with my Environment scrolled a bit to the right, showing EXS-24 Instruments and Audio Track objects grouped into bricks of 16 with labels underneath. The top row is EXS-24 Instrument objects, the middle row is Audio Track objects, and the bottom row is multi-timbral objects for VEPro:


----------



## charlieclouser (Dec 21, 2016)

And a tiny shot showing the Align Objects and Position By Grid commands in the Clean Up section of the Environment window's menu. As you can see, I've assigned "Align Objects" to option-command-A, since this key gets a lot of use when building out big Environment setups:


----------



## Kent (Dec 21, 2016)

charlieclouser said:


> And here's a shot with my Environment scrolled a bit to the right, showing EXS-24 Instruments and Audio Track objects grouped into bricks of 16 with labels underneath:


Beautiful.


----------



## charlieclouser (Dec 21, 2016)

kmaster said:


> Beautiful.



Why thank you. 4k monitor + Environment window is the SHIZ. It would be nice if the objects in the Environment had the new, slick cosmetics of the faders in the Arrange Mixer, but... meh. I've been staring at these old-style faders for nearly 20 years now and I guess I'm used to them. I must say that I've never had ANY issues of the Environment behaving inconsistently - it just swallows whatever insanity I throw at it and things don't move or resize spontaneously, and I don't use the "Lock" function or anything - it's all live and objects WILL move if I grab them, but it's never been a problem. 

Back in the old days I had some INSANE Environment windows with an 808-style drum sequencer on one layer (thousands of objects), Arpeggiators with their clock division controlled live from the mod wheel, Channel Splitters, Sysex editors for hardware synths, etc. - and it always worked as expected. Importing Environment Layers CAN get funky as Logic tries to integrate the imported objects with whatever's already in the existing Environment, so that's always been something I steer clear of.... but in general the Environment is one aspect of Logic that keeps me firmly devoted to the program. It's probably possible to force Cubase to behave in a similar fashion, with persistent, PERMANENT objects that won't move or change no matter what mayhem you wreak in the Arrange window, but I haven't gotten that far into Cubase yet.


----------



## mc_deli (Dec 21, 2016)

Ok that inspires me to crack open the environment again. Last time I couldn't even find some of the tracks, let alone align and tidy them all. I use a lot multis and auxes... Perhaps that is the difference here... At least my experience was very frustrating... But what better to do in the xmas hols!?!?


----------



## charlieclouser (Dec 22, 2016)

The problems in the Environment window start whenever you're dealing with any sort of dynamic object - and for me this basically means any plugin with multiple outputs. Yes, Logic is stone-age in that respect, and the fact that lighting up additional outputs from an instance of Kontakt automatically creates Aux objects is awful - so I never use this function. For me, one Instrument object = one MIDI channel. Any instance of Kontakt has only one instrument loaded into it - no "Multis" in Kontakt when they're inside Logic. 

The exception is VEPro objects, for which I create Multitimbral Instruments with 16 MIDI channels lit up. That's why I only have 224 EXS Instruments out of Logic's (too small) maximum of 256 - Instruments 225 through 255 are those multitimbral instruments for VEPro, so that's 32 Instruments of 16 MIDI channels each which equals 512 MIDI channels worth of VEPro that returns to Logic as 32 stereo pairs - with one single Instrument object left for the MIDI Click Instrument. This means that each 16 MIDI-channel brick of VEPro instruments must be mixed within VEPro, and returns as a single stereo pair to Logic, and this is not ideal but for orchestral stuff can be made to work. It also means that since I'm prohibited from dealing with surround or separate outputs within each VEPro brick then that's one less thing to worry about. I just return each brick as stereo and then use the send effects within Logic to hit my front and rear reverbs if needed.

So if everything is lit up that gives me 224 instruments hosted within Logic and a further 512 in VEPro. Not bad.

You can see in my output matrix that each stem's sub-master is made up of four Aux objects - two stereo and two mono. The first stereo pair is the front L+R, the second pair is rear L+R, and the two mono objects are for Center and Lfe. If Logic had the same sophisticated surround capabilities as ProTools, each of those four-channel bricks would be a single surround fader, but that's life. Each of those objects has a send at the top which is used to combine all of the stem sub-masters into that left-most brick that represents the surround composite mix. This is so that each sub-master brick can send to a set of hardware outputs AT THE SAME TIME as being combined into the composite mix. The composite mix goes to hardware outputs 1-6, then the first stem goes to outputs 7-12, and so on up to a total of 48 hardware outputs. These go out via MADI over to the separate ProTools rig so I can lay back a whole cue in one pass. Each stem sub-master object's input source is a BUS, and their outputs go to direct hardware outputs while the sends all go to one set of six busses that feed the final composite mix sub-masters. Since a stereo pair uses only one bus, this adds up to a total of 32 busses used up for all of this mess. 

Bus 1 = composite mix front L+R
Bus 2 = composite mix rear L+R
Bus 3 = composite mix Center
Bus 4 = composite mix Lfe

Bus 5 = drum stem front L+R
Bus 6 = drum stem rear L+R
Bus 7 = drum stem Center
Bus 8 = drum stem Lfe

etc. etc. all the way through the seven stems...

The bricks below each stem sub-master are for my global reverbs and delays, accessed from sends on the individual Instrument and Audio Track objects. Each stem gets a front reverb, rear reverb, front ping-pong delay, and rear ping-pong delay. These are also Aux objects, with their inputs set to busses 33-60 and their outputs set to feed busses 7-32 in the order that corresponds to the stem sub-masters. Each brick of four fx Aux objects is positioned neatly beneath the corresponding stem sub masters that they feed. 

It's a real drag that Logic is limited to 64 busses, 256 Instruments, etc. I really wish they'd kick down that door so I could have 512 busses, 1024 Instruments, etc. But what are ya gonna do? Deal with it. Even with this setup I still have four whole busses left over for whatever.  

Those brightly colored label objects are not Logic's "Ornament" objects, which I can't get to behave like I want. So I figured out a work around which is to create a Fader Object, set it's type to "Pop Up Menu" (I think), then in the Parameters box on the left set the value range to "1", then edit the value table or name list or whatever it's called so that the Pop Up Menu I just created has the desired label text as the one and only choice for the Pop Up. You'll notice that underneath each of these label objects the actual object name is displayed as "-------". This should clue you in to the fact that it's not the Object Name that creates the label - it's the CONTENTS of the Pop Up Menu value list. These objects can be resized by dragging their lower left corner and positioned, aligned, and grid-ed like any other object.

When I'm building those huge arrays of Instruments and Audio Track objects, I DO use the Arrange window's create command to automatically create them all at once with ascending Instrument ID numbers, and then I go to the Environment to move, align, and lay them out how I want. Be careful with the "Align Objects" command in the Environment - it will align ALL selected Objects in a nice clean row from left to right. So only select exactly and ONLY the Objects you want to align - do each brick as a separate set. Then you can lassoo each brick and drag them to reposition. 

For naming the Objects, remember that when you select a group of Objects, and then type a name for the first Object and have that name end with a number, ALL selected Objects will be renamed with the number incrementing by one for each Object. So you can select a brick of 200 Objects, command-click on them to rename, then type "Inst-01" and you'll get "Inst-01" through "Inst-200". Actually, these days Logic deletes the leading zeroes, so you must manually repair those, but it's no biggie. This is how I wind up with Instrument Object names like "Drum-01" through "Drum-16" followed by "Perc-17" through "Perc-32", etc. That way each 16-channel brick has a unique descriptive name as the front half, but the number at the end reflects the ACTUAL Instrument number that corresponds to Logic's internal numbering of these Objects.

Hard lessons learned over 20 years!


----------



## dgburns (Dec 22, 2016)

charlieclouser said:


> The problems in the Environment window start whenever you're dealing with any sort of dynamic object - and for me this basically means any plugin with multiple outputs. Yes, Logic is stone-age in that respect, and the fact that lighting up additional outputs from an instance of Kontakt automatically creates Aux objects is awful - so I never use this function. For me, one Instrument object = one MIDI channel. Any instance of Kontakt has only one instrument loaded into it - no "Multis" in Kontakt when they're inside Logic.
> 
> The exception is VEPro objects, for which I create Multitimbral Instruments with 16 MIDI channels lit up. That's why I only have 224 EXS Instruments out of Logic's (too small) maximum of 256 - Instruments 225 through 255 are those multitimbral instruments for VEPro, so that's 32 Instruments of 16 MIDI channels each which equals 512 MIDI channels worth of VEPro that returns to Logic as 32 stereo pairs - with one single Instrument object left for the MIDI Click Instrument. This means that each 16 MIDI-channel brick of VEPro instruments must be mixed within VEPro, and returns as a single stereo pair to Logic, and this is not ideal but for orchestral stuff can be made to work. It also means that since I'm prohibited from dealing with surround or separate outputs within each VEPro brick then that's one less thing to worry about. I just return each brick as stereo and then use the send effects within Logic to hit my front and rear reverbs if needed.
> 
> ...



The LPX ninja in session ! (agree with much Charlie says)

Some adds-

I create a enviro layer with all buss objects created, two sets of rows for easier visibility. This way you get a bird's eye view of the signal flow, and can check to make sure a bus is mono, stereo or 5.1. Sometimes you want a bus as a mono fx send, or as a stereo path for subs. If you don't create the busses, you can end up with a mono bus where you want it stereo. Also, you can make sure the busses objects have the proper in and outs, sometimes a bus will be assigned to an output and mess with your desired signal flow (and you pull your hair out trying to find out what the hell is going on)

I create about 20 aux channels as well, and place them on their own layer, auxes are notorious for getting assigned to an output as well, and this can mess you up too.

I print my stems within logic and finder copy over to PT, so I use busses to send stuff to the stems. Zero latency. I also create an A & B group of audio tracks right under my main stem audio tracks so I can pull down the stems and edit away if I need to. Usefull if there are timeline changes and I only need to write around a few places where music is new. The A & B group of audio channels are wired to go to the stem tracks so printing the stems from my regular midi/audio also includes the edits from A & B and I reprint the whole thing in one shot.

I also use screensets to show environment channels like one would use the mixer, with a frameless floating window so the environment objects float above the other arrange/edit windows. You could almost do away with the mixer itself doing this. I do rely heavily on the screensets, and have one setup as "main mix" to show me the mixer on screen 1 and arrange on screen 2. I've got about 50 screensets in my template recallable by shortcuts. One favourite is one screenset that show me the piano roll and hyper edit on screen 1, arrange on screen 2 where the hyper edit shows me about 8 different cc lanes that I use often, just clicking on a midi region shows me all the cc's in that region right under the piano roll which shows the notes. No need for Cubase's fancy multi lane cc function


----------



## dgburns (Dec 22, 2016)

If you want to get deep into the environment, turn off the option to have logic automatically manage environment objects or you'll lose things when you delete them from the arrange window.

I need more busses. 64 just ain't enough.


----------



## charlieclouser (Dec 22, 2016)

dgburns said:


> If you want to get deep into the environment, turn off the option to have logic automatically manage environment objects or you'll lose things when you delete them from the arrange window.
> 
> I need more busses. 64 just ain't enough.



Yes, turning off "Automatic Management of Channel Strip Objects" is absolutely crucial or things will get wrecked in a hurry. And, yes, 64 busses is not nearly enough. My seven-stem output matrix is about the max you can get running with that many busses, unless I get rid of all my send fx - or until Logic allows surround busses and Auxes in the same way that ProTools does.


----------



## samphony (Dec 22, 2016)

The departure from 64 busses, 255 instrument and audio tracks is long overdue!!!!

Here is an old post of mine. 

https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=106226


----------



## mc_deli (Dec 22, 2016)

charlieclouser said:


> The problems in the Environment window start whenever you're dealing with any sort of dynamic object - and for me this basically means any plugin with multiple outputs. Yes, Logic is stone-age in that respect, and the fact that lighting up additional outputs from an instance of Kontakt automatically creates Aux objects is awful - so I never use this function. For me, one Instrument object = one MIDI channel. Any instance of Kontakt has only one instrument loaded into it - no "Multis" in Kontakt when they're inside Logic.



This is the problem. This is why the environment is such a nightmare for me and why I would love to be able to lock the "normal" mixer window (just like Logic 9 argh). I have templates yes... but I can't have a template with everything... on a rMBP portable with just 16GB of RAM... it is not practical for lots of reasons... and it is so easy to open saved multitimbral track stacks to build as needed on a basic template... I am doing "hybrid" work where I am opening new instruments, new presets, new combinations all the time... and it is so easy to open saved empty multitimbral Kontakt instances for hybrid work... and I want automation lanes for auxes...

(Yesterday's project started with my stripped orchestral sections template with everything in VEPro, but by the end none of that was left and I had 143 tracks, mostly Kontakt multis, and various drum multis. The only thing I had left from the template was my first 24 auxes that I always keep constant for stems, FX etc. There is no way AFAIK to get consistent mixer views with this... even trying to get those first 24 auxes locked in the environment goes shonky when Logic reassigns bus numbers as new multi auxes are created...)


There is gold dust in this thread - and I know Jay is gonna say to learn to live with the limitations of LPX but I hope you understand why the lockable mixer views of LP9 are so sorely missed. And I do think the way the mixer window works in LPX is just daft!


----------



## Ashermusic (Dec 22, 2016)

I will make one last try. Why your software instruments change from project to project perhaps, there is no reason your busses should need to that much and you can import Environment layers from project to project very easily and quickly.

When you say "work", do you mean professional paid work?


----------



## mc_deli (Dec 23, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> I will make one last try. Why your software instruments change from project to project perhaps, there is no reason your busses should need to that much and you can import Environment layers from project to project very easily and quickly.
> 
> When you say "work", do you mean professional paid work?


Unfortunately my experience is that Logic's numbering of busses is not logical when creating new multi-timbral instruments. And this means that environment gets messy with every new multi.

But yes, a env layer of my aux tracks makes a lot of sense.

Paid work, yes. Professional, probably not.


----------



## Ashermusic (Dec 23, 2016)

mc_deli said:


> Unfortunately my experience is that Logic's numbering of busses is not logical when creating new multi-timbral instruments. And this means that environment gets messy with every new multi.
> 
> But yes, a env layer of my aux tracks makes a lot of sense.
> 
> Paid work, yes. Professional, probably not.



The reason I ask is that I would not write what I am about to write to a hobbyist. If you are being paid to create music with today's large sample libraries, you have to spend some dough on your tools. 16 GB on a laptop is simply not going to cut it.


----------



## mc_deli (Dec 23, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> The reason I ask is that I would not write what I am about to write to a hobbyist. If you are being paid to create music with today's large sample libraries, you have to spend some dough on your tools. 16 GB on a laptop is simply not going to cut it.


I am in that quandary right now. I can afford a dustbin right now. And am seriously considering it. TBH the last thing I want to do is give Apple more money. And I don't want a PC. I can't afford the extra research time and effort. 

But perhaps the answer is: I am not being paid to create music with today's large sample libraries. The libraries I end up using to make the music that is paid for - right now - are the small ones. Of course, like a lot of people I would like to be doing paid work using BWW, SCS etc! But agreed. And I would love a snappier Logic and Kontakt experience.

This has all gone a bit OT. A new machine is not the answer to Logic's mixer window. It would be great if 10.3 gave us drag and drop mixer window options and a control room feature


----------



## Ashermusic (Dec 23, 2016)

Well you said that part of the issue was that you could not have large templates with the Environment layers well set up, so that is what I was addressing. While obviously all of us would like to have the Mixer work as we want it to, it simply isn't a problem for me.


----------



## Saxer (Dec 23, 2016)

The import of track stacks is still a bit buggy. 
When I save a track stack in the library it's incomplete when reloading. Often some colors or names are missing.
When I import a track stack from another song the outputs of the sub tracks should be routed to the main track (aux) but they are mostly all set to stereo out.
Not too dramatic when you know it. But everything could be smoother.


----------



## Ashermusic (Dec 23, 2016)

Saxer said:


> The import of track stacks is still a bit buggy.
> When I save a track stack in the library it's incomplete when reloading. Often some colors or names are missing.
> When I import a track stack from another song the outputs of the sub tracks should be routed to the main track (aux) but they are mostly all set to stereo out.
> Not too dramatic when you know it. But everything could be smoother.



Agreed.


----------



## mjsalam (Feb 16, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> If you're trying to deal with hundreds of channel strips then using the Environment really is the way to go. I hate the new-ish Mixer view in the Arrange with a passion, simply because it only reflects what is going on in the Arrange, so I hardly ever use it.
> 
> In the Environment, however, you can create VAST arrays of objects that are persistent and don't move or change no matter what you do in the Arrange. This is how I've worked for years, and I don't understand the frustration with the Environment. You can make large color coded labels (which are actually Fader objects set to button mode with a value range of 1), precisely align any selected group of Objects (using the commands "Align Objects", "Positions By Grid", etc.) and it's really the way to go if you want FULL control over what objects appear and where. You can also open multiple Environment windows and size and scroll each one to display only what you want. Here's a picture of what my output matrix looks like in the Environment - at the top are seven surround stem sub-masters (with label objects) and a composite mix surround sub-master and stereo out object (for making quick bounces), below them are the front and rear reverb and delay Aux objects that correspond to each stem, and at the bottom are the Track Stack master faders for each of sixteen times 16-channel VEPro instances. Off to the right are 224 instances of EXS-24, 128 audio tracks, and 256 channels of VEPro. For me that's a lot, and it was trivial to set it all up - maybe an hour or two. Nothing moves or changes as I make a mess by adding and deleting tracks in the Arrange window, and if I want to do a cue with only five tracks in the Arrange then I can do so - and THEN I can make use of the Arrange Mixer because it will only show those objects that have tracks in the Arrange. My utility objects like ReWire inputs, the Master Fader (which allows me to trim ALL 64 hardware outputs at once), and stuff like that all stay where I put them no matter what.
> 
> Can you tell that I love the Environment?



Hi Charlie. Thanks for taking the time to post this! Really blew my mind and helped me understand (a) the value/power of the environment and (b) why folks lament the lack of attention its gotten. I have followed your example here (and based on another post of yours on gearslutz and it's making sense to me however it's seems that inevitably I'll need to add a track in arrange and subsequently it creates an object in the environment and messes up my pristine and (meant to be) immutable setup and I have to go clean up and realign. I sense I am missing something in my overall understanding here. How do you avoid this scenario? (I've unchecked the let logic manage pref but to be honest I'm not sure what it accomplished) Is the correct workflow for this setup to precreate all the tracks/channels you could possibly need and just swap out channel presets for example? In other words never (need to) create/delete tracks or channels?

Again, big thanks to you (and everyone else) for being so generous in sharing knowledge which is undoubtedly very hard won.

Mark


----------



## Ashermusic (Feb 16, 2017)

https://ask.audio/articles/creating-multiple-mixer-views-in-logic-pro-x-in-7-simple-steps

https://ask.audio/articles/custom-environment-layers-mixing-logic-pro-9


----------



## gsilbers (Feb 16, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> It's a real drag that Logic is limited to 64 busses, 256 Instruments, etc. I really wish they'd kick down that door so I could have 512 busses, 1024 Instruments, etc. But what are ya gonna do? Deal with it. Even with this setup I still have four whole busses left over for whatever.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



im sure you know by now, but the new update has 256 busses


----------



## robh (Feb 16, 2017)

Saxer said:


> The import of track stacks is still a bit buggy.
> When I save a track stack in the library it's incomplete when reloading. Often some colors or names are missing.
> When I import a track stack from another song the outputs of the sub tracks should be routed to the main track (aux) but they are mostly all set to stereo out.
> Not too dramatic when you know it. But everything could be smoother.


The names and colours seems to be fixed in 10.3. Not sure on the routing.

Rob


----------



## mjsalam (Feb 16, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> https://ask.audio/articles/creating-multiple-mixer-views-in-logic-pro-x-in-7-simple-steps
> 
> https://ask.audio/articles/custom-environment-layers-mixing-logic-pro-9



Thanks Jay! Do you think its better to use one or the other and not both? (native mixer vs. environment mixer).


----------



## Ashermusic (Feb 16, 2017)

mjsalam said:


> Thanks Jay! Do you think its better to use one or the other and not both? (native mixer vs. environment mixer).



I can argue it either way.


----------



## charlieclouser (Feb 16, 2017)

mjsalam said:


> Hi Charlie. Thanks for taking the time to post this! Really blew my mind and helped me understand (a) the value/power of the environment and (b) why folks lament the lack of attention its gotten. I have followed your example here (and based on another post of yours on gearslutz and it's making sense to me however it's seems that inevitably I'll need to add a track in arrange and subsequently it creates an object in the environment and messes up my pristine and (meant to be) immutable setup and I have to go clean up and realign. I sense I am missing something in my overall understanding here. How do you avoid this scenario? (I've unchecked the let logic manage pref but to be honest I'm not sure what it accomplished) Is the correct workflow for this setup to precreate all the tracks/channels you could possibly need and just swap out channel presets for example? In other words never (need to) create/delete tracks or channels?
> 
> Again, big thanks to you (and everyone else) for being so generous in sharing knowledge which is undoubtedly very hard won.
> 
> Mark



You've basically got it right - I create all of my Audio Objects ahead of time and then organize them in the Environment. When the option "Automatic Management of Channel Strip Objects" is turned OFF, then Logic will not create and delete Objects in the Environment automatically as you create and delete tracks in the Main Window - although sometimes it DOES create objects: When you start enabling multiple outputs in a plugin instrument like Kontakt, or start creating and deleting Summing Track Stacks, it seems that objects are still getting moved / created in the Environment. 

My process when building a new template starting with a completely empty, new Logic project, is basically this:

- In the Main Window, use the "plus sign" button to create 128 Audio Tracks.

- Use the "plus sign" button to create 224 Software Instrument tracks.

- Use the "plus sign" button to create 16 Multi-Timbral Software Instrument tracks. These are for 16x 16-channel instances of VEPro. 

- Create Folder Track Stacks for each 16-channel brick of Software Instrument tracks, bot the normal ones and the VEPro ones. This creates 30 of those "Sub" fader objects in the Environment (the ones that are just "Master Volume Faders" and have no plugin slots or routing assignments); 14 for the 224 normal Instruments and 16 for the VEPro Multi-Timbral Instruments.

- Open the Environment and rearrange these objects' positions by selecting and dragging them into two rows, Instruments in the top row, Audio Objects in a row below that. Use Options>Clean Up>Align Objects to snap things into alignment from time to time as I work. This command will put all selected objects into a single row, so only select as many objects as you want to snap at that moment. I basically Align each row separately, and then, starting from all the way to the RIGHT, select 16 objects and drag them to the right by the width of one object - this gives me a gap in the row that's one object wide for visual clarity. Select the last 16, drag them to the right by one object width, shift-drag to the left to add the previous 16 objects to the selection, drag right by one object width, repeat. When I'm done with this I have a row of 224 Instruments visually broken into bricks of 16. I start from all the way at the end (the right) because it's a little easier this way - but you can accomplish this in a number of ways. I often make a couple of dummy MIDI objects and put one all the way to the left of the Environment and drag another one WAY the heck to the right to "size" the Environment Window - Logic likes to re-size the Window so that it always encompasses all displayed Objects, and having a couple of dummy objects as place holders can help by giving you a large working palette so that you have room to work. You don't HAVE TO create the one-object-wide gaps in your rows, but I like to think in bricks of 16 and have this visual cue as to where I'm at, instead of just staring at a seemingly endless row of 224 objects. So basically, all this is doing is creating a row of 224 Instruments broken up into bricks of 16, with a row of 128 Audio Object below it, also broken into bricks of 16, and across the bottom a row of 256 Multi-Timbral Instrument Objects for the VEPro slots, all nicely aligned.

- Since I have a dummy MIDI object all the way to the left as a positional place holder, I can now drag ALL of my Audio and Instrument Objects a screen-width or so to the RIGHT, opening up a bunch of space at the left of the Environment in which I'll put all of my Auxes for stem sub masters and stem effects - aka my "Output Matrix".

- Using the Environment menu New>Channel Strip>Aux and various permutations of option-dragging these newly-created Auxes and then changing their setting under "Channel" in the Parameters box in the upper-left of the Environment, I create the 32 Auxes I'll need for stem sub masters and the 32 Auxes I'll need for my per-stem effects sends. Stem sub masters = 1x front LR + 1x rear LR + 1x mono Center + 1x mono LFE times 7 stems PLUS one composite mix = 32 Auxes. Stem Effects = 1x front reverb + 1x rear reverb + 1x front delay + 1x rear delay for each stem times 7 stems = 28 Auxes. I create all of these in order so that the first composite mix stem sub master is Aux number ONE, and going up from there. So Auxes 1-32 are all of my stem sub masters and Auxes 33-60 are my per-stem effects Auxes. Nice and clean.

- Then I create one more stereo Aux for ReWire input from Reason, and another stereo Aux for ReWire input from Ableton Live. I place these, along with Audio 256 (pre-listen) and Instrument 256 (Klopfgeist / click) in a little brick of four at the lower left of my Environment. These are my "Utility Auxes".

- Finally, I create a single Master Fader and a single Stereo Output Object and assign this to the main stereo output 1+2 - this gives me a simple Object that actually has the "Bounce" button at the bottom so I can do quick stereo bounces.

- Now hopefully all of the Audio and Instrument Objects have been created and are arranged visually. Now I get to work assigning Input and Output sources, effects sends, etc. 

- To create the slick colored label blocks below each brick of Objects, I use New>Fader>Text and then set the values like this:






You can then use the Colors palette to set the color for each of these label Objects, and drag the lower-right corner of these Objects to re-size them. Double-clicking the Object after its settings have been set will open the Value Names Table Editor, and THIS is where you type the text you want displayed in the label Object, NOT in the Object Name. Type the desired label text into the first slot in the Value Names Table. This is why my label Objects have their names set to "-------"; the actual name is just sort of a handle to grab on to when moving the Objects. You can think of these label Objects as pop-up menus that have only a single choice, which is why the "Range" parameter is set to "0 - 0" - the range encompasses only that single Value, and the Name of that single Value becomes the displayed label text. 

- I then get busy with the Colors palette and color each brick of 16 Instruments as well as the corresponding stem sub masters and per-stem Effects Aux Objects to the same color. This makes the Main Window nice and colorful and easier to navigate.

Whew. Now I've built a staggering array of Audio, Instrument, Aux, and dummy Label Objects, and arranged them into nice tidy rows. I can do this from scratch in less than an hour or so. Since "Automatic Management of Channel Strip Objects" is turned OFF, these objects will not get created, deleted, or moved as I mess with tracks in the Main Window. I can freely use "New Track With Same Channel Strip/Instrument" and "New Track With Next Channel/MIDI Channel" and "New Track With Duplicate Settings" and nothing will change in my Environment. 

I can expand and collapse the Folder Track Stacks to show/hide each brick of 16 Instruments, and individually show/hide tracks in the Main Window, etc. I generally DON'T delete tracks in the Main Window to clean things up, preferring to use "Hide Track" to reduce clutter - BUT if I DO want to delete tracks in the Main Window it won't delete anything in the Environment.

I also spend some time with the I/O Labels window to create both long and short names for all inputs, outputs, and busses so that I don't have to remember that "bus 33=Drum Stem front reverb" or whatever - I can see the name "Dvrb-F" right in the little box next to the effects send on an Object.

I use Aux Objects for all my stem sub masters and per-stem effects because, unlike Channel Strip > Bus or Output Objects, Auxes have Sends - I use these sends to combine the stem sub masters into a final set of composite mix sub masters by Sending to Busses, and if I want to send a delay Aux into a reverb Aux for instance. 

Unfortunately, Logic DOES still like to automatically create Aux objects when you start messing with Instruments that have Multiple Outputs, so I NEVER use this feature. For me, one Instrument = one stereo pair. I do this mainly because I don't want things to move in my Environment. Likewise, Summing Track Stacks also like to create Aux Objects and stuff on the fly, so I am leery of using this feature. Which is fine by me since my Output Matrix is sort of like a bunch of Summing Stacks anyway.

None of this is really an ideal setup, but this is how I deal with the weirdness and limitations of Logic, the Main Window Mixer, the Environment, etc.


----------



## charlieclouser (Feb 16, 2017)

A slightly different way to approach this is to use separate layers in the Environment for your Instruments, Auxes, stem sub masters, etc. - dividing it up as you see fit. Since you can have multiple copies of the Environment Window open at the same time, each one scrolled differently or set to show a different layer, this would let you keep one Environment Window open that always displays your Output Matrix, with another one open and set to a different layer to show Instruments, so you can scroll around a big array of Instruments while always showing your Output Matrix in another window. I could do this, and may switch to this approach for clarity at some point, but it's also possible to keep everything in one layer, open multiple copies of the Environment, and just scroll each one to display what you want. I just prefer to have as few windows open as possible - Main window on my main 4k monitor, and Environment on the monitor to my right.


----------



## mjsalam (Feb 16, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> A slightly different way to approach this is to use separate layers in the Environment for your Instruments, Auxes, stem sub masters, etc. - dividing it up as you see fit. Since you can have multiple copies of the Environment Window open at the same time, each one scrolled differently or set to show a different layer, this would let you keep one Environment Window open that always displays your Output Matrix, with another one open and set to a different layer to show Instruments, so you can scroll around a big array of Instruments while always showing your Output Matrix in another window. I could do this, and may switch to this approach for clarity at some point, but it's also possible to keep everything in one layer, open multiple copies of the Environment, and just scroll each one to display what you want. I just prefer to have as few windows open as possible - Main window on my main 4k monitor, and Environment on the monitor to my right.





charlieclouser said:


> You've basically got it right - I create all of my Audio Objects ahead of time and then organize them in the Environment. When the option "Automatic Management of Channel Strip Objects" is turned OFF, then Logic will not create and delete Objects in the Environment automatically as you create and delete tracks in the Main Window - although sometimes it DOES create objects: When you start enabling multiple outputs in a plugin instrument like Kontakt, or start creating and deleting Summing Track Stacks, it seems that objects are still getting moved / created in the Environment.
> 
> My process when building a new template starting with a completely empty, new Logic project, is basically this:
> 
> ...









Amazing. It never would have occurred to me to approach Logic this way. Really can't thank you enough for putting it in such detail. 

Mark


----------



## mjsalam (Feb 16, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> A slightly different way to approach this is to use separate layers in the Environment for your Instruments, Auxes, stem sub masters, etc. - dividing it up as you see fit. Since you can have multiple copies of the Environment Window open at the same time, each one scrolled differently or set to show a different layer, this would let you keep one Environment Window open that always displays your Output Matrix, with another one open and set to a different layer to show Instruments, so you can scroll around a big array of Instruments while always showing your Output Matrix in another window. I could do this, and may switch to this approach for clarity at some point, but it's also possible to keep everything in one layer, open multiple copies of the Environment, and just scroll each one to display what you want. I just prefer to have as few windows open as possible - Main window on my main 4k monitor, and Environment on the monitor to my right.



I like this suggestion and think I'll give it a try. Thanks! _(yet again)_


----------



## charlieclouser (Feb 16, 2017)

mjsalam said:


> Amazing. It never would have occurred to me to approach Logic this way. Really can't thank you enough for putting it in such detail.
> 
> Mark



Heh. Well, my approach comes from the old days, I think it was before "Automatic Management of Channel Strip Objects" even existed? Back then you sort of had to build out the audio objects you wanted to use ahead of time, or maybe it would automatically create them but not delete them if you deleted the corresponding Arrange track, or something like that - it's been a while! These days, Logic seems to cater toward people who want to work simpler and faster, just writing songs and creating five or ten tracks and deciding what Instruments to use as they go, as opposed to people like us who want to build a huge standing array of stuff and then use bits and pieces from that huge array. But both approaches make sense and are valid for different approaches, but they sort of stopped explaining how to build things in the standing array mode, instead emphasizing how Logic can do all of the housekeeping for you automatically. 

Back in the old days I'd have these HUGE Environments, with things like 808-style drum sequencers, SysEx editors for hardware synths, and step sequencers built from hundreds (thousands?) of buttons, transformers, and cables - and once you had all of that stuff configured you'd want it to stay "just so" as you worked, so I kind of got used to the idea of building big Environments and leaving them in place. By comparison, my current template is MUCH simpler than it was in the old days of TDM, SampleCell cards, and tons of hardware synths - so to me it's no biggie to just roll up my sleeves and build those big arrays and be confident that it won't move or get wrecked as I work.

You always have to be careful when doing stuff like using multiple outputs from Kontakt, or doing anything that might create Aux Objects on the fly - even with Auto Management OFF, these operations can still create Objects and disturb your nicely organized rows and columns. In theory, Logic has a function to import a single Environment layer from a different Project, so you could bring in whole worlds from other songs, but in reality this often causes collisions and chaos if the imported layer refers to audio resources that are already in use in an existing layer, so I never use this function.

But in general I have had no disasters when dealing with these big standing arrays, other than very minor alignment issues and cosmetic stuff like that. So you can generally feel safe about building complex stuff.


----------



## dgburns (Feb 17, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> A slightly different way to approach this is to use separate layers in the Environment for your Instruments, Auxes, stem sub masters, etc. - dividing it up as you see fit. Since you can have multiple copies of the Environment Window open at the same time, each one scrolled differently or set to show a different layer, this would let you keep one Environment Window open that always displays your Output Matrix, with another one open and set to a different layer to show Instruments, so you can scroll around a big array of Instruments while always showing your Output Matrix in another window. I could do this, and may switch to this approach for clarity at some point, but it's also possible to keep everything in one layer, open multiple copies of the Environment, and just scroll each one to display what you want. I just prefer to have as few windows open as possible - Main window on my main 4k monitor, and Environment on the monitor to my right.



In Theory and Practice end up being two different things- IMHO

I've spent time laying out what I "Think" will be a good layout, but then in the heat of battle find out all sorts of things I need and don't have setup.That's why templates POST a project are more valuable then the ones PRE a project is being done,again IMHO.

I've set up my environment with the channel groups in their own layer- but starting to wonder if it's maybe not better to do it by grouping logical things together. Just goes to show we end up evolving (or devolving) as we go along! (yes with floating windows to show certain groups of tracks recalled by screensets).

....and then there's the benefit to a clean empty new_with_nothin_in_it template.....just to change it up every once in a while....


----------



## mjsalam (Feb 18, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> Heh. Well, my approach comes from the old days, I think it was before "Automatic Management of Channel Strip Objects" even existed? Back then you sort of had to build out the audio objects you wanted to use ahead of time, or maybe it would automatically create them but not delete them if you deleted the corresponding Arrange track, or something like that - it's been a while! These days, Logic seems to cater toward people who want to work simpler and faster, just writing songs and creating five or ten tracks and deciding what Instruments to use as they go, as opposed to people like us who want to build a huge standing array of stuff and then use bits and pieces from that huge array. But both approaches make sense and are valid for different approaches, but they sort of stopped explaining how to build things in the standing array mode, instead emphasizing how Logic can do all of the housekeeping for you automatically.
> 
> Back in the old days I'd have these HUGE Environments, with things like 808-style drum sequencers, SysEx editors for hardware synths, and step sequencers built from hundreds (thousands?) of buttons, transformers, and cables - and once you had all of that stuff configured you'd want it to stay "just so" as you worked, so I kind of got used to the idea of building big Environments and leaving them in place. By comparison, my current template is MUCH simpler than it was in the old days of TDM, SampleCell cards, and tons of hardware synths - so to me it's no biggie to just roll up my sleeves and build those big arrays and be confident that it won't move or get wrecked as I work.
> 
> ...



So here's something that I just discovered that may be helpful to someone. I was finding that whenever I try to load up a patch from the library is would screw up the instrument channel objects in the environment. They'd get totally misaligned...worse as I went. Finally figured out that if you select "Enable Patch Merging" this problem goes away. Which is awesome! I don't know if this is a persistent setting that gets saved with the template. Or if there is a way to make it the default behaviour. Doesn't appear to be but if anyone knows otherwise...


----------



## dgburns (Feb 18, 2017)

Logic will place any new object you create right next to the last one of the same class it belongs to. So audio track 100 will get placed in the environment right next to audio object 99- no matter what environment layer 99 is located in.
This is the reason I put all same things on their own layer. I know if I create a new audio track, it will get placed in my audio layer in the environment, so I don't have to go hunting it down.I do think however, there are good reasons to consider grouping objects together by the function,like all things for an certain accoustic giutar together,audio,auxes and fx. You can always "protect" the environment and it locks it down.

There's no question you might consider spending a lot of time pre building your set up and locking it down while working. But there's a balance between creating more things then you need, and building things as you discover you need stuff setup.

-edit-
I tend to keep the first 10 aux objects free so Logic can use them if I load a sound and Logic wants to create some auxes.


----------



## mjsalam (Feb 18, 2017)

dgburns said:


> Logic will place any new object you create right next to the last one of the same class it belongs to. So audio track 100 will get placed in the environment right next to audio object 99- no matter what environment layer 99 is located in.
> This is the reason I put all same things on their own layer. I know if I create a new audio track, it will get placed in my audio layer in the environment, so I don't have to go hunting it down.I do think however, there are good reasons to consider grouping objects together by the function,like all things for an certain accoustic giutar together,audio,auxes and fx. You can always "protect" the environment and it locks it down.
> 
> There's no question you might consider spending a lot of time pre building your set up and locking it down while working. But there's a balance between creating more things then you need, and building things as you discover you need stuff setup.
> ...



Thanks! That's really helpful on the objects of same type. I think it makes total sense that approach. As for your other points. Well taken and I completely agree about finding that balance.


----------



## Ashermusic (Feb 18, 2017)

[QUOTE="dgburns, post: 4056422, member: 6689"
I tend to keep the first 10 aux objects free so Logic can use them if I load a sound and Logic wants to create some auxes.[/QUOTE]

Me as well.


----------



## mc_deli (Feb 21, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> A slightly different way to approach this is to use separate layers in the Environment for your Instruments, Auxes, stem sub masters, etc. - dividing it up as you see fit. Since you can have multiple copies of the Environment Window open at the same time, each one scrolled differently or set to show a different layer, this would let you keep one Environment Window open that always displays your Output Matrix, with another one open and set to a different layer to show Instruments, so you can scroll around a big array of Instruments while always showing your Output Matrix in another window. I could do this, and may switch to this approach for clarity at some point, but it's also possible to keep everything in one layer, open multiple copies of the Environment, and just scroll each one to display what you want. I just prefer to have as few windows open as possible - Main window on my main 4k monitor, and Environment on the monitor to my right.


Watching the Spitfire Que Lastas vid... great shot of your Logic environment in the background!
The info here and in the cues mgmt thread is very generous, thanks


----------



## charlieclouser (Feb 21, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> Watching the Spitfire Que Lastas vid... great shot of your Logic environment in the background!
> The info here and in the cues mgmt thread is very generous, thanks



My pleasure. Here's a couple of full-screen 4k screenshots of the Environment in my current template. The first one is showing my output matrix for seven 5.1 stems, with front+back reverb+delay for each stem, my kludgey way of doing surround stem sub masters (2x stereo + 2x mono objects per stem), plus things like my utility objects for ReWire inputs, a dummy MIDI object used as a placeholder for scrolling, the fader-objects-repurposed-as-colored-label-objects cheat, the bottom row of dummy master faders that get auto-created for each Folder Track Stack, etc. The second one is scrolled a little to the right, showing Instruments in the top row, Audio in the second row, and MultiTimbral Objects for VEPro in the bottom row.


----------



## Ashermusic (Feb 21, 2017)

Lovely color coding


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 21, 2017)

Hey Charlie, how do you color those Ornaments and get the text in the middle of them? I want to steal your idea, but I can't figure it out!


----------



## charlieclouser (Feb 21, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Hey Charlie, how do you color those Ornaments and get the text in the middle of them? I want to steal your idea, but I can't figure it out!



Basically, those ornament objects are not "Ornament Objects" in Logic-speak, they are actually fader objects. Logic's Ornament Objects are just big blocks that can be assigned to have a color but their name will be displayed in tiny text underneath the object, so that's useless. If you understand the various types of fader objects well, then this quick explanation will make sense:

They are faders with type = text so they behave as pop-up menu/buttons. Then drag the lower right corner of the object to resize. Then set range = 0<>0 so there's only one possible value. Then open the Value Names Editor by double clicking on the object itself and enter the desired text into the first (upper left) slot in the Value Names Table. It's as though you're creating a pop-up menu button to display a list of patch names or something like that, but your list will only have one item - the name that you want displayed. The actual "name" of the object does not matter - I just type in "-------" so there's something in the name field. The text you want displayed in the center of the object is actually the name of the one and only value that the pop-up menu could be set to. The MIDI input/output settings for this object do not really matter - I should have set them to "No Output" or to a dead-end MIDI destination, but I usually don't bother.

If this doesn't really make sense, then here's a slightly more lengthy explanation from an earlier post of mine in this thread:

------------------

- To create the slick colored label blocks below each brick of Objects, I use New>Fader>Text and then set the values like this:






You can then use the Colors palette to set the color for each of these label Objects, and drag the lower-right corner of these Objects to re-size them. Double-clicking the Object after its settings have been set will open the Value Names Table Editor, and THIS is where you type the text you want displayed in the label Object, NOT in the Object Name. Type the desired label text into the first slot in the Value Names Table. This is why my label Objects have their names set to "-------"; the actual name is just sort of a handle to grab on to when moving the Objects. You can think of these label Objects as pop-up menus that have only a single choice, which is why the "Range" parameter is set to "0 - 0" - the range encompasses only that single Value, and the Name of that single Value becomes the displayed label text.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 21, 2017)

Of course, they're not Ornaments. Thanks Charlie.


----------



## dgburns (Feb 24, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> Basically, those ornament objects are not "Ornament Objects" in Logic-speak, they are actually fader objects. Logic's Ornament Objects are just big blocks that can be assigned to have a color but their name will be displayed in tiny text underneath the object, so that's useless. If you understand the various types of fader objects well, then this quick explanation will make sense:
> 
> They are faders with type = text so they behave as pop-up menu/buttons. Then drag the lower right corner of the object to resize. Then set range = 0<>0 so there's only one possible value. Then open the Value Names Editor by double clicking on the object itself and enter the desired text into the first (upper left) slot in the Value Names Table. It's as though you're creating a pop-up menu button to display a list of patch names or something like that, but your list will only have one item - the name that you want displayed. The actual "name" of the object does not matter - I just type in "-------" so there's something in the name field. The text you want displayed in the center of the object is actually the name of the one and only value that the pop-up menu could be set to. The MIDI input/output settings for this object do not really matter - I should have set them to "No Output" or to a dead-end MIDI destination, but I usually don't bother.
> 
> ...



Whatever you do, don't add a few more plugin rows or your nice text blocks will get covered up by the channel strips getting enlarged!!

otherwise, very nice and I'm jealous you have the discipline to go to such lengths CC


----------



## charlieclouser (Feb 24, 2017)

dgburns said:


> Whatever you do, don't add a few more plugin rows or your nice text blocks will get covered up by the channel strips getting enlarged!!
> 
> otherwise, very nice and I'm jealous you have the discipline to go to such lengths CC



Exactly - that's why I've already pre-instanicated as many effects sends as I'm likely to use on each channel (front+back reverb+delay plus sends to the Center and LFE stems), and on the last instrument I've already put as many plugins as I'm likely to use so that the slots are pre-used and the height of the objects is already at or near maximum. But, yeah... growing objects can be a nasty surprise.


----------



## dgburns (Feb 24, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> Exactly - that's why I've already pre-instanicated as many effects sends as I'm likely to use on each channel (front+back reverb+delay plus sends to the Center and LFE stems), and on the last instrument I've already put as many plugins as I'm likely to use so that the slots are pre-used and the height of the objects is already at or near maximum. But, yeah... growing objects can be a nasty surprise.



Only four rows worth.... ?? (just teasing!)

Ya, don't know how many times I've had to resize the rows myself.Think I'd know better already.


----------

