# Help me setup out board gear please.



## jadedsean (Apr 3, 2020)

Hi everyone, i wonder if any studio guys can advice on this setup, so basically i have a few things i want to setup within a patchbay, a comp,eq, a radial EXTC 500, all held in a Radial Cube. Then i would also like to connect a kemper profiler, my monitors and also a lot of guitar pedals.

What i have to do this,

So my audio interface is a RME Babyface pro and i have an Adat connection going to my Behringer ADA 8200.
Patchbay is also Behringer PX3000 Ultrapatch Pro.

I'm understanding how a patchbay works in regards to it's modes but iv'e always been an in the box guy so actually setting it up is quite daunting and don't where to begin. For examples what cables to i need? I read i need TRS (balanced) cables for everything except the pedals. I also plan on buying an unbalanced patchbay for these pedals. So the Behringer ADA 8200 has 8 xlr outputs on the back, do i just connect these to the outputs on the Behringer PX3000 Ultrapatch Pro? Also confused because the audio interface has 8 outputs but the patch bay 24, do i need to buy another audio interface to use all the bays? Any help would really be appreciated, i'm quite nontechnical when it comes to do this so be gentle with me 




Links to gear:









Behringer PX3000 Ultrapatch Pro


Behringer PX3000 Ultrapatch Pro, 48-Kanal Multifunktions-Patchbay, symmetrische Klinkenbuchsen 6.3mm, Schalter auf der Oberseite der Patchbay für jeden Kanal zum umschalten der verschiedenen Modi: Normal (normalisiert), Half Normal...




www.thomann.de





https://www.thomann.de/de/rme_babyface_pro_fs.htm








Radial Engineering Workhorse The Cube


Radial Engineering Workhorse The Cube, portabler 3-Slot Einschubrahmen für System 500 Module, pro Eingangskanal Input (XLR und Klinke), Output (XLR und Klinke), Omniport, Feed und Link, schaltbare 48 V Phantomspeisung, externes Netzteil,...




www.thomann.de













Behringer ULTRAGAIN DIGITAL ADA8200 digitaler Konverter


Bei Bax Music fündig werden! Mit Niedrigpreis-Philosophie, 60 Tagen Bedenkzeit und bis zu 5 Jahren Garantie bestellen!




www.bax-shop.de




gclid=CjwKCAjwvZv0BRA8EiwAD9T2VZHZJWFqceHG3Mv91IUlnVJaPpgDv6HZPd1Zbfx8ScRneIKYI8HKUxoCOlMQAvD_BwE









Midas Parametric Equaliser 512 V2


Midas Parametric Equaliser 512 V2; 500er Modulformat; parametrisches EQ Modul, basierend auf Midas Heritage 3000 4-Band voll parametrischen EQ; Designed und entwickelt in U.K.; Bauform: 500er Modul




www.thomann.de





https://www.musicstore.de/de_DE/EUR...CMo-gxgK16eQxcsUeoAXAaNTrPEINq4xoC7SUQAvD_BwE









Radial Engineering EXTC-500


Radial Engineering EXTC-500, Guitar Effekts Interface Modul für Workhorse 500, symmetrischer Reamper,Klinke send/receive, Send und Return separat regelbar, Wet/Dry regelbar, 180° Phase Invert schaltbar, nur für System 500 Mainframes




www.thomann.de


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## Uncle Ox (Apr 4, 2020)

Hello, looks like a complicated set-up with all the I/O’s from your 2 convertors.
I would skip the patchbay if possible and try to make definitief connections.


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## jadedsean (Apr 18, 2020)

Yeah your probably right, i get a headache just thinking about these things
Thanks for the advice.


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## wst3 (Apr 18, 2020)

there is one in every crowd...

I think for systems like the one you describe a patchbay becomes even more important, well, at least as important.

I'm not certain how I'd hook up that list of gear, I know I'd start with normalled connections for my "standard" configuration, but I'm not sure what that would look like.

I will offer one word of caution - every connector is a potential source of noise or other problems, and the patchbay you mention does not have a stellar reputation. On the plus side, there are switches for every configuration, and jacks on the rear, on the minus side there are switches for every configuration and jacks on the rear. If you already have it you might was well use it, although you might end up saving money (that's a lot of connectors) if you swap it for one with solder connections on the back.

If you can describe what you thing your "usual" setup might look like I'd be happy to take a swing at it.

My last studio had several hundred patch points, all TT or Bantam (about, but not quite 1/8 inch diameter plugs). The console patchbays used Molex connectors, which had a pretty bad reputation by then, and they lived up to it. So I removed all the Molex connectors on the console and patchbay and soldered directly to the circuit boards. It made a huge difference! I still had to keep the jack fields clean.

The remaining patchbays were also TT, and came out of an old central office.They had a combination of solder tails and wirewrap pins, and that's what I used. I did make the mistake of soldering the wirewrap connections on the first patchbay, but I learned my lesson<G>. Come to think of it that's how I learn most of my lessons???

In spite of routine cleaning, and a strict no smoking no open containers rule I still ran into intermittent problems from time to time. Thing is, having lived with no patchbay for the last several years I've also learned that just using cables is subject to the same problems. Somethings you just can't beat.


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## Uncle Ox (Apr 18, 2020)

Hi there
to help you a little with the headache...this is how I would set it up.
One of the Babyface analogue outs goes to your speakers/monitors (coming from your DAW's master
stereo out).
So you have one more ana-output on your RME Baby maybe you can use that to send to the
Radial Cube to send tracks to it from your DAW and send them back to one of the Babies ana-inputs,
back to your DAW.
Because the Cube has extra analogue I/O's you can, also @ the same time, connect it via/to the Behringer ADA converter
to use it with all your pedals (which most of them, anyway, are also connected to the free Behringer line inputs).
You have to find out what is the most handy way to do it: paralel or in serie (modules & pedals).
The Behr. is connected of coarse to the Baby F. via ADAT !
Hope this helps...


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## charlieclouser (Apr 18, 2020)

You could easily connect all the gear you've listed using a single patch bay, and the PX3000 will do fine.

You will need a few cables that are "adaptor" cables; that have a different connector on each end. For instance, to connect the XLR Line Outs of the ADA8200 to the patch bay you will need cables that have XLR Female on one end and 1/4" TRS Male on the other. (These are commonly referred to as XLRF>TRSM). The 1/4" TRS Male jacks look like a 1/4" headphone plug, with three distinct connection areas on the jack (the tip, the ring, and the sleeve). These carry the same three-conductor signal as an XLR jack, just in a different form. 

You do not need to purchase a separate "unbalanced 1/4" patch bay in order to connect 1/4" TS jacks (normal "guitar cables") like you would use when connecting guitar pedals to the Radial XTC. Guitar cables that are 1/4" TS (which stands for tip - sleeve) only have two connection areas on the jack, and you can freely use them on a balanced 1/4" patch bay like the PX3000 - all that will happen is that the ring and sleeve will be "shorted together" when you connect. This is not an issue if all the gear in the chain uses TS jacks, so going from the Radial XTC's front panel output 1/4" jacks, through the patch bay, to some guitar pedals, and back to the XTC's front panel input 1/4" jacks is absolutely fine.

I have a bunch of 1/4" TRS patch bays that are connected to a variety of guitar pedals (using 1/4" TS cables) AND a bunch of rack mount effects (using 1/4" TRS balanced cables) and everything works just fine. In most cases you can even mix and match and go from a TS connection to a TRS connection with no problem - although some will say this is not recommended, almost all modern gear will accommodate this. Just be aware that if at any point in a signal chain a connection is made with a two-conductor (TS) cable then that entire chain becomes an unbalanced chain. 

The rule of thumb for patch bays is that the top row should be connected to the outputs of your gear, and the bottom row connected to the inputs of your gear - no matter what that gear is. Think of it like a waterfall - the signal comes out of the top row and "falls" to the bottom row. With the gear you have listed, that single patch bay will have more than enough connections for everything, with room to add even more gear as you go. Here is how I would connect everything:

*TOP ROW (jacks 1-8) = ADA3200 LINE OUTPUTS* = Use XLR Female > 1/4" TRS Male cables to come from the rear-panel line outputs on the ADA3200 to the rear of the patch bay, top row, jacks 1-8.

*BOTTOM ROW (jacks 1-8) = OUTBOARD GEAR LINE INPUTS *= Use 1/4" TRS Male > XLR Male cables to come from the rear of the patch bay, bottom row, jacks 1-8, and go into the rear panel XLR Line Inputs on the Radial Cube. Since the Cube only has three inputs, you'll only be using jacks 1-3 on the patch bay. This means you have room to connect 5 more channels of gear.

- For this first brick of 8 channels, set the switches on the top of the patch bay to "HALF NORMAL" mode - this will automatically connect the ADA3200's outputs to the inputs of the gear on the bottom row, and will also let you use the patch bay as a "mult" (sort of like a "Y-cable"), so that you can plug a cable into the top row on the front of the patch bay to route a signal elsewhere, AND the signal will still flow from the ADA3200 to the gear connected to the bottom row. If, however, you plug a cable into the bottom row on the front panel of the patch bay, that new signal will interrupt the "normalled" connection.

*TOP ROW (jacks 9-16) = EIGHT GUITAR PEDAL OUTPUTS *= Use 1/4" TS Male > 1/4" TS Male cables (normal guitar cables or an unbalanced 1/4" snake) to connect the OUTPUTS of 8 guitar pedals to the rear of the patch bay, top row, jacks 9 through 16. 

*BOTTOM ROW (jacks 9-16) = EIGHT GUITAR PEDAL INPUTS *= Use 1/4" TS Male > 1/4" TS Male cables (normal guitar cables or an unbalanced 1/4" snake) to connect the INPUTS of 8 guitar pedals to the rear of the patch bay, bottom row, jacks 9 through 16. 

- For this second brick of 8 channels, set the switches on the top of the patch bay to "THRU" mode - this will mean that signal will NOT flow from the top row to the bottom row unless you insert a cable on the front of the patch bay to do so. This prevents the guitar pedals from having their outputs connected back to their inputs, so they won't be "feeding back" into themselves.

- Another approach you could use, if you like to have your pedals connected in a default "chain" that you like to use, would be to set the switches on the top of the patch bay to "HALF NORMAL" mode for this bank of 8, AND to offset the connections, so that top row jack 9 is unconnected, bottom row jack 9 is pedal 1 input, top row jack 10 is pedal 1 output, bottom row jack 10 is pedal 2 input, etc. This means that the signal from the pedals would flow through each of them in series, through the patch bay, and allow you to have signal passing through them all in series with no cables on the front of the patch bay - but you could use cables in the front of the patch bay to rearrange the order, skip certain pedals, etc. If you want to be really slick, you could have a cable connected to your guitar going to rear of the patch bay, top row, jack 9, and the instrument input of your Kemper connected to rear of the patch bay, bottom row, jack 16. Then you just plug your guitar into that cable, and now your guitar is going through all the pedals in series and into the Kemper, but you could use cables in the front of the patch bay to rearrange or skip some pedals in the chain. This would be a less-common way of doing things but it will definitely work.

- If you have more than 8 channels worth of pedals, then you may want to use a separate patch bay to organize them (this is what I do) - but there is no need to search for an unbalanced 1/4" patch bay; you could just use another PX3000 for this.

- When you want to route signals coming out of the Radial XTC and into some pedals, run a cable from the front panel 1/4" output on the XTC to the desired bottom-row front-panel jack on the patch bay 9-16. Use the jacks on the front of the patch bay to route through a bunch of pedals in series if you want, and take the output of the last pedal in the chain from the front-panel top-row jack on the patch bay back to the front-panel 1/4" input on the XTC.

- An alternative to the above paragraph, if you don't want to have cables stretching across the room from the front of the XTC to the patch bay, would be to permanently route 1/4" TS cables from the XTC's front-panel input and output to rear-panel jacks on the patch bay. If you have fewer than 8 guitar pedals, you could use a jack in that middle brick of 8 channels on the patch bay. Just remember to have the XTC's front-panel 1/4" output going to the rear-panel top-row of the patch bay, and come from the rear-panel bottom-row on the patch bay back to the XTC's front panel 1/4" input.

*TOP ROW (jacks 17-24) = OUTBOARD GEAR LINE OUTPUTS* = Use XLR Female > 1/4" TRS Male cables to come from the rear-panel line outputs on the Cube to the rear of the patch bay, top row, jacks 17-24. Besides the 3 channels from the Cube, you could also connect the Line Outputs of the Kemper to channels 5+6.

*BOTTOM ROW (jacks 17-24) = ADA3200 LINE INPUTS *= Use 1/4" TRS Male > 1/4" TRS Male cables to come from the rear of the patch bay, bottom row, jacks 17-24, and go into the front panel 1/4" Line Inputs on the ADA3200. The front-panel XLR jacks on the ADA3200 are only for MIC signals, and the line inputs are on 1/4" TRS jacks next to the XLR inputs. Use those 1/4" inputs to connect to the patch bay.

- For this last brick of 8 channels, set the switches on the top of the patch bay to "HALF NORMALLED" mode, so that signal will flow from the top row to the bottom row with no cables needed, but you can interrupt any connection by plugging into the bottom row on the front panel. Also, you can take a signal from the top row on the front panel to some other destination without interrupting the connection, so it functions as a "mult".

- Connect your speakers directly to the BabyFace; the only possible reason to have the speakers connected to the patch bay would be if you want to connect the outputs of the Kemper directly to the speakers so you can jam out on guitar without turning on the computer - but then you have no volume knob as you have on the BabyFace, and you'll have to use the volume knob on the Kemper and be very careful not to blow your head off!

- The configuration I've described gives you a little room to grow, since the Cube only occupies 3 channels and the Kemper only occupies 2 channels, and only on the output side.

- If you decide to use a separate patch bay for all your guitar pedals and the instrument input on the Kemper, then you'll free up that middle brick of 8 channels in your main patch bay, giving you even more room to add more line-level gear in the future.

Obviously there are a zillion ways to do this kind of stuff, but with the gear you've listed, this is a simple way to connect it all up, let you route pretty much any combination of signals to wherever you want - and have some room to add more gear.


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## jadedsean (Apr 23, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> You could easily connect all the gear you've listed using a single patch bay, and the PX3000 will do fine.
> 
> You will need a few cables that are "adaptor" cables; that have a different connector on each end. For instance, to connect the XLR Line Outs of the ADA8200 to the patch bay you will need cables that have XLR Female on one end and 1/4" TRS Male on the other. (These are commonly referred to as XLRF>TRSM). The 1/4" TRS Male jacks look like a 1/4" headphone plug, with three distinct connection areas on the jack (the tip, the ring, and the sleeve). These carry the same three-conductor signal as an XLR jack, just in a different form.
> 
> ...



Wow Charlie that is so cool of you to help me out with my setup i really really appreciate it man. I am going to give this a go on the weekend because i will have to order a few things first, but in the meantime i will have to read over this a few times just to understand how the signals flow. I will for sure report back and let you guys know how its going, but again man thank you so much for taking the time to help me out your a legend.


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## jadedsean (Apr 23, 2020)

Uncle Ox said:


> Hi there
> to help you a little with the headache...this is how I would set it up.
> One of the Babyface analogue outs goes to your speakers/monitors (coming from your DAW's master
> stereo out).
> ...


Hey thank you very much for your help dude i really do appreciate it.


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## jadedsean (Apr 23, 2020)

wst3 said:


> there is one in every crowd...
> 
> I think for systems like the one you describe a patchbay becomes even more important, well, at least as important.
> 
> ...


Wow you guys are great, this is why i love this forum. People actually help each other here, thank you so much dude for your input.


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## Just Johnny NZ (Sep 16, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> You could easily connect all the gear you've listed using a single patch bay, and the PX3000 will do fine.
> 
> You will need a few cables that are "adaptor" cables; that have a different connector on each end. For instance, to connect the XLR Line Outs of the ADA8200 to the patch bay you will need cables that have XLR Female on one end and 1/4" TRS Male on the other. (These are commonly referred to as XLRF>TRSM). The 1/4" TRS Male jacks look like a 1/4" headphone plug, with three distinct connection areas on the jack (the tip, the ring, and the sleeve). These carry the same three-conductor signal as an XLR jack, just in a different form.
> 
> ...


Hi Charlie, I have a question that I haven't been able to get a solid answer for. You maybe able to help. 
I won't be using a computer or an interface.
All hardware based.
Two patchbays.
One for drum machines, synths the other for guitar pedals.
Is it ok to use TS to TS cables from pedals to patchbay then use TRS to TRS cables to patch fx to synths in the top patchbay which are all connected via TRS cables?
Or should they be TRS to TRS.
What would happen if I mix cables?


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## charlieclouser (Sep 16, 2021)

Just Johnny NZ said:


> Hi Charlie, I have a question that I haven't been able to get a solid answer for. You maybe able to help.
> I won't be using a computer or an interface.
> All hardware based.
> Two patchbays.
> ...


I am not an authority on this, but I believe it's fine to mix cables as you say. What I think will happen is that when a TS cable is plugged into a TRS jack, the ring and sleeve of the TRS both connect to the sleeve of the TS, so basically you are unbalancing the connection by "shorting" the ring and sleeve.

Certainly nothing will be damaged by this, I do this all the time. My guitar pedal patch bays are TRS but only have TS cables going between the patch bay and the pedals and all works fine. My audio interface has two pairs of TRS cables going to that same patchbay and I just shove signal into it and it's all good.

However, you may get some levels that are wildly out of range - my audio interface is sending +4 balanced signal out of the TRS jacks, and I must trim the output level down by about 18db so that I don't overdrive the pedal inputs. Likewise, the signal coming back from the pedals is very quiet if the audio interface is set to +4 operation, so I must add a good bit of gain to bring that signal up to a decent level. If there is an option in your audio interface settings to change between -10 and +4 operating level on a per-input / per-output basis, then you can do that - but many audio interface's settings window will only switch that in banks of 8 i/o or perhaps for all at once.

However there is the issue of *input impedance.* In a system using all line-level devices like audio interfaces, synths, drum machines, and most effects processors, the impedance of the output is very low (around 100 ohms) and the impedance of the input it's connected to is very high (up to 10,000 ohms). This is the "low feeds high" concept, and what happens is that most of the signal's energy is "soaked up" at the receiving device.

But a guitar pickup has a very high output impedance (often 15,000 ohms or more), so if you connect an old Les Paul or Strat to a pedal or amp, the input it's connected to needs to have an even higher input impedance so that most of the signal will be soaked up by that input. This is why many audio interfaces have front-panel inputs labelled "Hi-Z" ("Z" is an abbreviation for impedance) or "GTR". These inputs have a very high input impedance (often 20,000 - 100,000 ohms or more) and should be used when plugging a guitar with a high-impedance output directly. Synths and drum machines can use these inputs but it's usually fine to plug them into normal line inputs which have lower impedances of 10,000 ohms or so. 

So things can get a little weird when plugging a guitar into an input that has a normal line-level impedance of 10,000 ohms or so, because less of the signal will be soaked up by the input, and level and tonal shifts can occur. It's not so bad when just mixing and matching synths and drum machines with pedals, but some vintage-style pedals may have a high-impedance output that will be expecting a very Hi-Z load on the input it's being connected to. Probably not a big deal in your setup though. Here is a copy-pasta from the Whirlwind website that tries to explain:

-----------------
_
Low Feeds High
In order to preserve signal level and frequency response, it's important to drive equipment with a source signal that is lower in impedance than the destination equipment's input impedance. If the input impedance of a device is not significantly higher than the source impedance, the signal will be reduced or “loaded down” and its signal to noise ratio and frequency response will suffer.

Think of this as having a nozzle at the end of a garden hose. The garden hose is a low impedance source (there is little resistance to the flow of water) and the nozzle is the higher impedance of the input being fed by the hose.

When the nozzle valve is closed (open circuit):

* Input impedance is VERY high
* Pressure (voltage) is at maximum
* Flow (current) is zero

Now open the nozzle just a little:

* Input impedance reduces but remains high
* Pressure reduces but remains high
* Flow is small

As you continue to open up the nozzle:

* Input impedance reduces further
* Pressure reduces
* Flow increases

With the nozzle open all the way:

* Input impedance is very low
* Pressure falls dramatically
* Flow is greatest

In the case of a high impedance guitar output (7,000 to 15,000 Ohms or more) driving a relatively low impedance input of a mixer (2,000 to 10,000 Ohms), it's like connecting a garden hose to a fire nozzle. The hose just can't produce enough flow (current) for the size of the opening (impedance) to maintain the pressure (voltage)._

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If you're not using actual guitars with high-impedance outputs, you can probably ignore all of these impedance issues. But if you're doing stuff like recording guitars dry and then running them from your DAW to pedals and amps, you may get some weird tonal shifts alongside the obvious level mis-matches. Technically, the "correct" way to do it is to use a Re-Amp box between the outputs of the audio interface and the inputs to the pedals, and then to use a D.I. box (or D.I. / "guitar" input on the interface) for the return from the pedal. These boxes will change not only the level of the audio interface down to a level that is suitable for the pedal's inputs, but will also change the *impedance* as well so that there is no tonal shift as the pedal's circuitry is loaded differently than it's designed to do. If one really wanted to be a hard-core pro, and was making records with rock band guitarists who are picky about their tones, one would use something like these products from Radial Engineering:






Reamp - Radial Engineering


Reamp devices convert a balanced line-level signal to a high impedance instrument-level output, allowing you to take any previously recorded track and play it back through various guitar pedals or amplifiers to explore new tonal possibilities.




www.radialeng.com





They make standalone Re-Amp boxes that only convert the output of your audio interface to pedal level / impedance, as well as round-trip boxes like the EXTC (in both stereo standalone and mono 500 series modules) that handle the whole round-trip path so you don't need a D.I. box and can just connect directly between +4 balanced i/o of your audio interface and pedals / amps. Their stuff is industry-standard, super-slick, but kinda pricey. And for synths and various pedals like modern delays and whatnot, you probably don't need them.

But if you experience weird tonal shifts, things sounding thin or pinched, etc. then it's probably an impedance-matching issue which the Radial stuff will solve.


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