# Moving music from Dorico to Cubase: how good or bad is your experience? Problems, tips, etc.?



## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 10, 2021)

Many people compose in Dorico but move the finished music to Cubase for more realistic rendering, access to more expression maps (via BabylonWaves for ex.), better control, etc. and of course mixing and mastering.

Going from one program to the other usually involves exporting/importing via a MusicXML file. How easy/good is it in your experience? Does it usually work perfectly? Any frequently encountered problems? Any tips you'd like to share?

Also: Do you feel that the upcoming MNX standard will help?


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## Bollen (Nov 10, 2021)

Back when I used to work with Sibelius that was precisely my workflow i.e. compose on Notation, but then export the MIDI instead of the XML to Cubase. There's was no other way of getting decent playback without massaging and often re-performing many lines in the DAW. Mixing, on the other hand and depending on the project, I'm content to just use VE Pro which is compatible with all of them.

However, since I started using Dorico I have almost exclusively done everything there, bar some complex mixes or if I need to Master a track. I will note that I do everything manually, I don't let Dorico control _anything_, not even the tempo track! This is unfortunately the only way until the day we get very smart AI.



Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> Do you feel that the upcoming MNX standard will help?


Never heard of it, so can't say...


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## Rob Elliott (Nov 10, 2021)

Cubase 12 best new feature (ME HOPES) - Dorico FULLY integrated into Cubase Pro 12. Probably not going to happen but I can dream can't I????


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## ChickenAndARoll (Nov 10, 2021)

Rob Elliott said:


> Cubase 12 best new feature (ME HOPES) - Dorico FULLY integrated into Cubase Pro 12. Probably not going to happen but I can dream can't I????


Literally my dream. Compose inside of Cubase with a Dorico "mode" to input all the notes in notation, then click a button to switch over to the DAW mode to edit CC data and add one shot effects, etc. Then mix and master the music, all within the same program.


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## Rob Elliott (Nov 10, 2021)

Yep and not asking for free either. Legit owners of BOTH have the options as you mention.


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## Inventio (Nov 10, 2021)

My experience in trying to integrate Dorico and Cubase and viceversa has been unsuccessful.

A few times I tried and gave up, after spending a whole day each time trying to create a set of Expression Maps that would allow me to move sequences between the two softwares with matching articulations and cc lanes.

I thought I could have the samples in VEP and switch back and forth. One thing I noticed is that exp maps have to be created in Dorico and then opened in Cubase. The other way around does not work, if I recall correctly (I erased that partition of my mind after that awfully laborious experience).

I still think my goal was not impossibile but I gave up because of the amount of work and time needed to troubleshoot back and forth between the two.

And I said to myself: hey, let them do the integration work and then I'll pay for the upgrade.

I'm using Dorico with NotePerformer now, but in truth, Ed Buller's post about his new workflow makes me want to retry the challenge, if not for integration at least for a better sounding Dorico.

Great post @ed buller! 
https://vi-control.net/community/th...ico-i-have-some-questions.114252/post-4909938


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 10, 2021)

Inventio said:


> And I said to myself: hey, let them do the integration work and then I'll pay for the upgrade.


Exactly. One can dream of a "super-Cubase" or "Cubaco" hybrid that is Cubase PLUS the score editing capability of Dorico for tracks that need it.

More and more composers need both worlds and many times I find myself using instruments that simply cannot be notated traditionally. Avant-garde composers of the past have been trying to invent new notations but none of them was universal enough to survive. Synths ultimately made it impossible with their multiple simultaneous controllers. Automation is now our only hope of controlling complex synths such as Dawesome ABYSS for example.

In the end, for maximum rendering quality, one usually has to get dirty in CCs, a task for which Cubase is way more powerful than Dorico so far.

My husband, a physicist, laughs at all this as it reminds him of similar problems in his field, i.e. how to write equations and then solve them. Even mathematical typography had to be reinvented in the digital era (TeX/LaTex). Also as most equations cannot be solved exactly algebraically, approximate numerical solutions have to be found, something similar to notation vs rendering for us. This gave rise to hybrid computer programs (algebraic manipulators + numerical solvers) such as Mathematica, etc. Cubaco could be their equivalent in music production.

There, as is becoming the case for us (e.g. NotePerformer), AI-assistance is taking charge of more and more aspects of the job and does most of the heavy lifting now. Of course still imperfect but progressing at a pace never seen before. AI is the latest revolution, after the industrial and information ones of previous eras. No job, even creative ones like his and ours, will be (already is) able to stay away from it nor will we want to imho.


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## Aldunate (Nov 11, 2021)

I would be happy with better MIDI editing and mixing inside Dorico.


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## Trensharo (Nov 11, 2021)

Cubase is pretty good at importing MusicXML. However, things like grace notes can be tricky in some cases.

That can depend on what notation software you're coming from, and how they write this information into the MusicXML file, though.


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 12, 2021)

I was suprised to learn that at least 268 programs can now either read, write or R/W MusicXML files!





Software - MusicXML


MusicXML has become the most successful standard for music notation interchange since MIDI. The chart below lists software that features at least some MusicXML interchange capability.




www.musicxml.com




and that they're now at Version 4.0 since June 2021





MusicXML 4.0


Version 4.0 of MusicXML was released in June 2021. It was developed by the W3C Music Notation Community Group and published as a Community Group Report.




www.musicxml.com


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## youngpokie (Nov 12, 2021)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> for maximum rendering quality, one usually has to get dirty in CCs, a task for which Cubase is way more powerful than Dorico so far.


I co-sign right here! There's functionality in Cubase that allows for faster and more efficient workflow. It's easier to draw curves in Cubase, it's easier to make the shapes very precise, it's easier to "solo" tracks from within the editor. I render the tempo track in Cubase from my own playing. Then there is track offset, and so on and so forth - the list is quite long. And for modelling instruments, such as SWAM strings, where additional articulations can be "created" with Note Expression, Dorico is completely incapable right now in that. 

In my own case, the center of the setup is VEPro as the "instrument server". Then I have the notation side (Dorico) connected to it, with instrument order saved as "playback template". And on the other side, I have Cubase ("performance dimension") also connected to VEPro and follow the exact same track order and instrument names.

All the instruments were volume balanced in VEPro, (using Rimsky and Brant) and heavily relying on volume scaling. I used the exact same terms for articulations insofar as it's possible to match them between Cubase and Dorico. And finally I also ran the output from VEPro into Cubase so that I can also record the instrument groups from VEPro.

In some ways this is probably a total overkill (and I'm very impatiently waiting for Dorico 4 to find out what it means for my setup). But I spent quite some time thinking through the differences in how I use Cubase and Dorico, so this setup is completely responsive to my workflow.


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## Bollen (Nov 15, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> It's easier to draw curves in Cubase, it's easier to make the shapes very precise, it's easier to "solo" tracks from within the editor. I render the tempo track in Cubase from my own playing. Then there is track offset, and so on and so forth - the list is quite long


These are a few of the things I hope to see in version 4, finger crossed! However, I do use SM extensively in Dorico with pretty decent results.


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 15, 2021)

Excuse my question but by SM do you mean Sample Modeling ?

Edit: sorry, found it 








Expression Maps for Sample Modeling


Hello community, just wanted to contribute to the expression maps, but I don’t how to add them to that Thread. So I’ll just post them here and the devs can sort it out. It includes all SM instruments and they have been tested quite a bit. SM Expression Maps.zip (13.7 KB)




forums.steinberg.net


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## Bollen (Nov 15, 2021)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> Excuse my question but by SM do you mean Sample Modeling ?
> 
> Edit: sorry, found it
> 
> ...


Yup, that's the one... They're rubbish and I don't use them even though I made them. They just make SM sound like a terrible synth. I control everything manually now!


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## sinkd (Nov 15, 2021)

Inventio said:


> I'm using Dorico with NotePerformer now, but in truth, Ed Buller's post about his new workflow makes me want to retry the challenge, if not for integration at least for a better sounding Dorico.
> 
> Great post @ed buller!
> https://vi-control.net/community/th...ico-i-have-some-questions.114252/post-4909938


This!


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 15, 2021)

Bollen said:


> Yup, that's the one... They're rubbish and I don't use them even though I made them. They just make SM sound like a terrible synth. I control everything manually now!


Thanks! Good to know. I need to get out my EWI USB for that and then learn how to play it


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## sinkd (Nov 15, 2021)

I have been writing some cues in Dorico and then exporting to DP via MIDI. I don't know whether it is the Noteperformer MIDI, but there are a lot of CC 15-22 events that I ned to clear out when I am editing MID in DP. Or maybe I don't need to worry with that?


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## Bollen (Nov 15, 2021)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> Thanks! Good to know. I need to get out my EWI USB for that and then learn how to play it


That's certainly one way to go about it, I prefer to just write the music in and then do a quick pass on the CC lanes. I have humanisation set pretty high usually and a quick drawing of swells and vib variation does the job!


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 15, 2021)

sinkd said:


> I have been writing some cues in Dorico and then exporting to DP via MIDI. I don't know whether it is the Noteperformer MIDI, but there are a lot of CC 15-22 events that I ned to clear out when I am editing MID in DP. Or maybe I don't need to worry with that?


I wonder if you set the Dorico playback template to "Silence" and then export MIDI if you will get these CCs. Never tried myself.


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 15, 2021)

Bollen said:


> That's certainly one way to go about it, I prefer to just write the music in and then do a quick pass on the CC lanes. I have humanisation set pretty high usually and a quick drawing of swells and vib variation does the job!


It would be nice if SM instruments had a look ahead feature like Straight Ahead Samples ones have or some "A.I." à la Note Performer to take some of the initial load off drawing these CC lanes.


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## youngpokie (Nov 15, 2021)

Bollen said:


> a quick pass on the CC lanes. I have humanisation set pretty high usually and a quick drawing of swells and vib variation does the job!


You do note entry (rather than playing) and then play the controller to overdub the MIDI CC messages, correct? And how do you set humanization, the Dorico % value, right?

What I do in Cubase is keep some pre-drawn curves in Note Expression. I keep these notes as a kind of "stock expressions" in that -1 or -2 bar when everything is initializing. Then I just copy and paste it. 

For example, with flutes the vibrato almost always starts on the beat so it's very easy to pre-draw a Note Expression curve and it takes only seconds to propagate. I made slightly different versions for Flute I, Flute II and Piccolo. Also that near-instant drop in bow pressure in SWAM violins is easy to draw (and really hard to play!!!) - gives a pretty decent approximation of sautille. It would be so nice to have this ability in Dorico!

I'd be grateful for any particular tips and trick you might share, especially for SM


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## Bollen (Nov 15, 2021)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> It would be nice if SM instruments had a look ahead feature like Straight Ahead Samples ones have or some "A.I." à la Note Performer to take some of the initial load off drawing these CC lanes.


Oh no! I would never let A.I. interpret music for me... It's hard enough telling real musicians, I trust my hand above anyone! 



youngpokie said:


> You do note entry (rather than playing) and then play the controller to overdub the MIDI CC messages, correct? And how do you set humanization, the Dorico % value, right?
> 
> What I do in Cubase is keep some pre-drawn curves in Note Expression. I keep these notes as a kind of "stock expressions" in that -1 or -2 bar when everything is initializing. Then I just copy and paste it.
> 
> ...


No particular trick, it's just like playing a real instrument i.e. the more you do it, the more you get used to it. I don't record anything live, mostly because I have my buffer set at maximum so I can run full orchestras without issue. After working on a piano quintet for three months I can draw the curves simply looking at the values and know exactly how it's going to sound! So if you're really interested this is how I work:

- I have two sound cards: a professional one which runs Dorico/VE Pro with the buffer set at maximum; and a second cheap one that I run at minimum buffer and use it just for a piano. Dorico is set to MIDI through so I only hear the piano when I play.

- I have three monitors: 2 in landscape and 1 in portrait. At the far left I have VE Pro with all the instruments loaded. The middle screen runs Dorico in write mode Galley view or the Play window according to the moment. The one on the right has the full score in Write mode but in Page view.

- The reason for having two windows running Write mode in 2 different views is because I create several parallel instruments routed to the same channels in order to control keyswitches, special effects or other complimentary libraries (like extended techniques). I can then hide all these instruments in Page view, but I'm still able to see them and work on them in Galley view.

- Finally, on top of my piano keyboard, I have two Stream Decks: an XL and a regular one. This way I can just concentrate on writing without having to think of shortcuts or anything else. Just composing!

I will usually spend most time finding ideas on the piano and writing them into Dorico. Once I'm satisfied I'll turn to the middle monitor and adjust keyswitches and/or other special requirements of the music. Then I'll swap to Play mode and draw in the curves, then sit back and enjoy the music!

When I finish a whole piece or work I'll spend some time polishing the CC a bit more if necessary and most importantly the Tempo Lane!!! The very neglected aspect of most Computer Musicians. This where I make the work breath and move like humans. Slight, minute alterations like a conductor would!

As for the Dorico humanisation, it's completely dependant on the tempo of the piece. The higher the tempo the higher you can push the humanisation. On a presto I might have it at 100%.


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 16, 2021)

Bollen said:


> Oh no! I would never let A.I. interpret music for me... It's hard enough telling real musicians, I trust my hand above anyone!


Cannot disagree with that but still would like _some_ help with the heavy lifting 


Bollen said:


> No particular trick, it's just like playing a real instrument i.e. the more you do it, the more you get used to it. I don't record anything live, mostly because I have my buffer set at maximum so I can run full orchestras without issue. After working on a piano quintet for three months I can draw the curves simply looking at the values and know exactly how it's going to sound! So if you're really interested this is how I work:


I do the same, full buffer it is! 


Bollen said:


> - I have two sound cards: a professional one which runs Dorico/VE Pro with the buffer set at maximum; and a second cheap one that I run at minimum buffer and use it just for a piano. Dorico is set to MIDI through so I only hear the piano when I play.


But this is a really neat idea: using two audio cards, one dedicated to "live". Never thought of it. Might just do that instead of changing buffer all the time. Thanks!


Bollen said:


> - I have three monitors: 2 in landscape and 1 in portrait. At the far left I have VE Pro with all the instruments loaded. The middle screen runs Dorico in write mode Galley view or the Play window according to the moment. The one on the right has the full score in Write mode but in Page view.


Similar for me. 3 "main" monitors (50", 4K) running most windows, one small 24" touchscreen below for additional controls and one large touchscreen monitor (55", 4K, IPS) on a rolling cart that I can use as a mixer in Cubase. It works with up to 10 touch points and/or a special pen. I had to steal that one back from my husband's setup recently 


Bollen said:


> - The reason for having two windows running Write mode in 2 different views is because I create several parallel instruments routed to the same channels in order to control keyswitches, special effects or other complimentary libraries (like extended techniques). I can then hide all these instruments in Page view, but I'm still able to see them and work on them in Galley view.


I also mostly work in galley view. I'm learning Dorico and I'm still wondering how to display only certain groups of instruments I create (say view only WW or strings) in Write mode. Must be a way.


Bollen said:


> - Finally, on top of my piano keyboard, I have two Stream Decks: an XL and a regular one. This way I can just concentrate on writing without having to think of shortcuts or anything else. Just composing!


As you know I only very recently started to use a SD XL and I love it! For a Dorico novice like me it makes things much easier, not having to remember keystrokes! I'm thinking of even adding a second XL but I've never seen anyone using two XLs. All setups with two SDs I've seen so far use a regular with an XL. It is historical? People bought the regular then added an XL? Or because one cannot use two or more XLs together?


Bollen said:


> I will usually spend most time finding ideas on the piano and writing them into Dorico. Once I'm satisfied I'll turn to the middle monitor and adjust keyswitches and/or other special requirements of the music. Then I'll swap to Play mode and draw in the curves, then sit back and enjoy the music!
> 
> When I finish a whole piece or work I'll spend some time polishing the CC a bit more if necessary and most importantly the Tempo Lane!!! The very neglected aspect of most Computer Musicians. This where I make the work breath and move like humans. Slight, minute alterations like a conductor would!


Tempo lane or track is indeed one of the most important features imho too, to make everything feel natural and make music more expressive.


Bollen said:


> As for the Dorico humanisation, it's completely dependant on the tempo of the piece. The higher the tempo the higher you can push the humanisation. On a presto I might have it at 100%.


I wonder how much "intelligence" is behind all these humanization features. Are they just clever randomization of some parameters. Is there more than meet the eye... Or more than meet the "A.I."


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## youngpokie (Nov 16, 2021)

Bollen said:


> this is how I work


This is amazing. Thank you!

I have to think this through and see what I can "borrow" for my own workflow and I love the monitor setup and ordering already.

But there's one bit I am not understanding:


Bollen said:


> I create several parallel instruments routed to the same channels in order to control keyswitches, special effects or other complimentary libraries (like extended techniques).


Does this mean you're not using expression maps in Dorico? How can you control keyswitches by routing to the same channel?



Bollen said:


> I have two sound cards: a professional one which runs Dorico/VE Pro with the buffer set at maximum; and a second cheap one that I run at minimum buffer and use it just for a piano. Dorico is set to MIDI through so I only hear the piano when I play.


I'm not sure if this is apples to apples, but I use TransMIDIfier to route from Dorico to VEPro, so I have a single keyswitch to turn on either piano-only across the board (like you) or to play each actual instrument from the Dorico staff.

Interestingly, like you I also write on the piano. But then I turn around and probably make my life more complicated than it should be: I use the piano staff in Dorico to do voice leading in the traditional SATB style. And at _that_ point I have to switch to Cubase because I sketch when orchestrating and so I need the same x bars repeated multiple times in a row for variations - yet played in the right order and flattened linearly when finished - and I don't think it's possible in Dorico.


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## DR BOOWHO (Nov 16, 2021)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> As you know I only very recently started to use a SD XL and I love it! For a Dorico novice like me it makes things much easier, not having to remember keystrokes! I'm thinking of even adding a second XL but I've never seen anyone using two XLs. All setups with two SDs I've seen so far use a regular with an XL. It is historical? People bought the regular then added an XL? Or because one cannot use two or more XLs together?


I use 2 XL and a regular for screen changes and other stuff. Having everything on buttons without changing screen just makes for an easier workflow, and with these new commands where you can switch all decks with one key just about makes it perfect.


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 16, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> I'm not sure if this is apples to apples, but I use TransMIDIfier to route from Dorico to VEPro, so I have a single keyswitch to turn on either piano-only across the board (like you) or to play each actual instrument from the Dorico staff.


TransMIDIfier is an absolutely brilliant piece of software by Brian Wherry that I discovered many years ago! Later I think he joined Hans Zimmer's Remote Control studio for a while.


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 16, 2021)

DR BOOWHO said:


> I use 2 XL and a regular for screen changes and other stuff. Having everything on buttons without changing screen just makes for an easier workflow, and with these new commands where you can switch all decks with one key just about makes it perfect.


Very cool setup! Thanks for sharing!!


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## PaulieDC (Nov 16, 2021)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> Thanks! Good to know. I need to get out my EWI USB for that and then learn how to play it


Boy is THAT ever on my future to do list!


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## Bollen (Nov 16, 2021)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> I also mostly work in galley view. I'm learning Dorico and I'm still wondering how to display only certain groups of instruments I create (say view only WW or strings) in Write mode. Must be a way.


Well if you mean Focus on Staves like Sibelius had, then there isn't a way. However, you can hide whatever you want in Page view with manually hidden staves which will always be visible in Galley view. If you want to see specific groups you can also make as many layouts as you want e.g. WW layout from Setup mode and only include winds, you can then change to this layout at any moment from the top middle drop-down menu.


Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> I wonder how much "intelligence" is behind all these humanization features. Are they just clever randomization of some parameters. Is there more than meet the eye... Or more than meet the "A.I."


It's mostly just A. with no I. It literally says randomise up to a certain %. Overture had a much better one even though it was also just random, but at least it included tempo humanisation which did wonderful things with rit and acc...


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## Bollen (Nov 16, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> Does this mean you're not using expression maps in Dorico? How can you control keyswitches by routing to the same channel?


No, I don't use them at all, I find them awful, unreliable and robotic.

Concerning keyswitches, in Setup I'll add say a violin, then I'll add a Bass clef which I'll call Violin KS. Then in Play mode I will assign both of them to the same VST. In this matter I can devote the Violin KS to keyswitches and any kind of weird gesture I need for example a specific fall, portamento, trill, mordent and any other kind of playback you need to notate because either Dorico does not play it back or it's not the way it's notated traditionally. In this manner my "Violin" part remains clear and ready for printing and all playback artefacts remain in the Violin KS. This is also very useful when I need to use another library/vst for a sound that the violin could make, but my main library cannot produce it. For example I tend to mostly use SM now for main things and then CH for effects and things SM is not very good at, like repeated notes.



youngpokie said:


> I use the piano staff in Dorico to do voice leading in the traditional SATB style. And at _that_ point I have to switch to Cubase because I sketch when orchestrating and so I need the same x bars repeated multiple times in a row for variations


I suppose it depends what kind of music you write. I certainly use the SATB system occasionally, but never repeat so that part is not that useful.


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 16, 2021)

Bollen said:


> Well if you mean Focus on Staves like Sibelius had, then there isn't a way. However, you can hide whatever you want in Page view with manually hidden staves which will always be visible in Galley view. If you want to see specific groups you can also make as many layouts as you want e.g. WW layout from Setup mode and only include winds, you can then change to this layout at any moment from the top middle drop-down menu.


Thanks for this info. Yes I meant something like Focus on Staves like Sibelius. I will now look into layouts. I'm still a Dorico newbie as you know 


Bollen said:


> It's mostly just A. with no I.





Bollen said:


> It literally says randomise up to a certain %. Overture had a much better one even though it was also just random, but at least it included tempo humanisation which did wonderful things with rit and acc...


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 16, 2021)

Bollen said:


> Concerning keyswitches, in Setup I'll add say a violin, then I'll add a Bass clef which I'll call Violin KS. Then in Play mode I will assign both of them to the same VST. In this matter I can devote the Violin KS to keyswitches and any kind of weird gesture I need for example a specific fall, portamento, trill, mordent and any other kind of playback you need to notate because either Dorico does not play it back or it's not the way it's notated traditionally. In this manner my "Violin" part remains clear and ready for printing and all playback artefacts remain in the Violin KS.


Very clever!


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## ptram (Nov 17, 2021)

I use expression maps and playback templates, in particular because I like to write with NotePerformer, and then switch to a complete set of sample libraries when I can devote more attention to the audio prototype.

I guess it is possible to work instead in a traditional, DAW-like way in Dorico. One can create a template with all the staves/tracks corresponding to the virtual instruments that will be used. It is not my preferred way, but I suspect it may be the preferred one for people who grew on a DAW.

Paolo


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## youngpokie (Nov 17, 2021)

ptram said:


> I guess it is possible to work instead in a traditional, DAW-like way in Dorico.


@ptram I confess I didn't quite get this. You said you set up the maps, the templates and your VST is Note Performer. What's the difference between this and the DAW-like way of working? Do you mean that you don't draw the CC with NotePerformer?


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 17, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> @ptram I confess I didn't quite get this. You said you set up the maps, the templates and your VST is Note Performer. What's the difference between this and the DAW-like way of working? Do you mean that you don't draw the CC with NotePerformer?


If I may answer for myself here: I also score in Dorico these days, preview with Note Performer which does a reasonable job at it, enough for fine tuning the score. Then I can either move the whole thing to Cubase for detailed rendering using VSL (and other libs) expression maps (Babylon Waves) and full CC control or stay in Dorico using VSL and expression maps. In Dorico the tools to edit are more limited and more difficult to use, based on my limited experience.


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## ptram (Nov 17, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> What's the difference between this and the DAW-like way of working?


Dorico allows a complete change of the sound generation, by applying a different playback template. I start with NotePerformer. Then switch to VSL Synchron, and may want to try with Orchestral Tools. All is done by choosing the corresponding playback template.

You don't have to create a template before starting to work. You can apply it later.

With DAWs, the "traditional" way of working I've seen up to now is that you start from a template, with all the needed sounds instantiated. Switching to a different template means having to manually rewire everything. Keyswitches do not usually match between libraries, and have to be re-edited.

Not so with Dorico, where "pizz." continues to mean the same both in NotePerformer and VSL Synchron.

Paolo


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 17, 2021)

In Dorico I also save my own playback templates, mixing different libs in the same piece, but I'm still kind of new at it. Very convenient.


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## youngpokie (Nov 17, 2021)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> preview with Note Performer





ptram said:


> Dorico allows a complete change of the sound generation, by applying a different playback template.


I understand this and I did use Note Performer trial to test-drive this approach. 

However, I kept getting distracted with how terrible Note Performer was out of the box. Maybe I wasn't using it in the right way, but in the end the whole affair started to look as if I'm simply introducing yet another extra step into my process that's not adding any value whatsoever. There was no gain for me in productivity, nor in creativity, etc - so I went back.

I put together my own template (saved as playback template, of course) in VEPro. It's volume balanced to my liking and when I'm writing I'm not drawing any curves, it just plays back the way it is set up. Maybe, in some way, I use my template similar to how you use Note Performer and I simply made a DIY version of it?

Of course this all depends a lot on how you compose. I live in the Romantic style exclusively and my workflow is _extremely_ traditional and based on probably the most archaic style imaginable. I write on the piano, I harmonize and check voice-leading on a separate piano staff just the way they used to teach it back in the day, and then I make multiple orchestration versions of the same fragments until I get the version that's "the one" to my ears. 

If I did this with pen and paper, I would have hundreds of pages of "sketches" that I would then have to put in order once I've made my selections. This is the reason I need the arranger track in Cubase.


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## Bollen (Nov 17, 2021)

ptram said:


> I use expression maps and playback templates, in particular because I like to write with NotePerformer, and then switch to a complete set of sample libraries when I can devote more attention to the audio prototype.
> 
> I guess it is possible to work instead in a traditional, DAW-like way in Dorico. One can create a template with all the staves/tracks corresponding to the virtual instruments that will be used. It is not my preferred way, but I suspect it may be the preferred one for people who grew on a DAW.
> 
> Paolo


I'd just like to add that I do not come from DAW, I have only once done a complete piece on one and it was very a simple piece. I come from pen and paper so when I finally got into notation programs I was very put off by their playback and rarely used it for proofreading. That's why Dorico has changed my life! I can finally hear through the speakers what I hear in my head!

For me Noteperformer has never been able to interpret my music, at all. Much less any kind of expression map.


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 17, 2021)

Bollen said:


> I'd just like to add that I do not come from DAW, I have only once done a complete piece on one and it was very a simple piece. I come from pen and paper so when I finally got into notation programs I was very put off by their playback and rarely used it for proofreading. That's why Dorico has changed my life! I can finally hear through the speakers what I hear in my head!


Same here, coming from acoustic piano, ink & paper straight to conductor for years. Then Notion, Finale, Sibelius and lately Dorico. Since moving to digital the finishing touches of the mock-up are always made in Cubase. Live performances can be corrected or "remastered" only if needed.

OTOH, for some simpler pieces, sometimes I skip scoring altogether and start straight in Cubase.


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## Inventio (Nov 17, 2021)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> Thanks for this info. Yes I meant something like Focus on Staves like Sibelius. I will now look into layouts. I'm still a Dorico newbie as you know


Yes, I confirm that Layouts can work well in this regard. And once set up you can easily select and switch to ww, brass, strings, whatever you have set up, from the dropdown menu above.

Layouts can also work well when moving things from Cubase to Dorico, for example if you have a midi sequence to polish and properly notate. In those cases I found them handy as a tool to switch between the unpolished, chaotic mess of midi-turned-into-notation tracks and the polished version that is coming together.

If you look into Layouts you will see that they can work as this type of "visual filter".


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 17, 2021)

Thank you so much @Inventio ! Really appreciated as I need this badly


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