# UAD-1 Card Vs TC Electronics Powercore?



## Frederick Russ (Aug 21, 2004)

Just a little input on these two cool PCI Card would be great.


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## Mike M (Aug 23, 2004)

Depends - the option upgrade for the tc is sony oxford, which is pretty high tech stuff. 

I don't think you could go wrong with either card, but personally I'm getting tired of the PCI trip so I'm thinking about native waves.


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## Scott Cairns (Sep 26, 2004)

Funnily enough, Im about to purchase one of those cards.

A very experienced composer friend of mine told me the following;

Powercore has the better reverb

UAD-1 tends to have better quality compressors, eqs, etc.

Of course this is largely personal taste.

Two things I like about the Powercore over the UAD card is that it had a guitar modeller on it that sounds AWESOME.

You can also buy the Access Virus software to run off the Powercore card and that also sounds AWESOME. (I dont know many adjectives) 

Oh, and a third thing; the Powercore has a very cool vocal channel strip. (Some or all of these things may exist on the UAD card, I havent checked it out fully yet.)


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## CJ (Sep 26, 2004)

A friend of mine at Sweetwater Music told me that he's seen a lot of folks with both cards. If you can get past any PCI conflicts you would have the best of both worlds. 

However...

If you get one of the cards (like the UAD) to handle EQs and compression, you could get a convolution verb like Waves IR. With the decreased hit on the CPU because the UAD is handling EQ and compression tasks you might be able to run more native plug ins - just a thought.


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## Jack Weaver (Sep 26, 2004)

Scott & CJ,

I'll bet you're both right on about these cards.

I've been twisting in the wind over these two for the past few days. 

Typically, TC has that clean, bright reverb sounds - the anti-Lexicon warm and fuzzy sound. I'm hearing that the UAD classic tube compressors and EQ's are the stuff to have. 

Has either of you worked with the TC channel strip? From the lit I get the impression that it has a tube emulation mode. In reality is that any competition for the modeled versions of the the LA-2A and the Fairchild? (I have my doubts about that but hope always springs eternal.) 

I really don't want to get another convolution reverb as I'm rather disappointed in their density within a mix. 

Yes, both would be great but I'm trying my best not to make my G5 an unwieldly beast. Any real world knowledge on conflicts using both?

Best regards,

Jack Weaver


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## DonnieChristian (Sep 26, 2004)

I would go with the Powercore card for a couple of reasons. First and most important it is being supported by third party developers more. Heck the Sony stuff alone is reason enough to go with the PC. Also there seem to be a lot less horror stories compatibilty wise with the PC.

Hope this helps!


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## Frederick Russ (Sep 26, 2004)

In another thread, it shows that Han Zimmer used the Powercore firewire rackmounts instead of 2 digidesign pro tools systems when he scored King Arthur:

http://www.tcelectronic.com/Default.asp?Id=3682

In the article, pay particular attention to this statement:

_
"For each of the writing rigs, Zimmer used a dual-Opteron-based 128-input Nuendo mixing system to mix the output of the computers running GigaStudio, featuring RME Hammerfall DSP MADI cards and a TC PowerCore FireWire. These mixing systems provided a cost-effective alternative compared to renting or purchasing two Digidesign Pro Tools HD Accel systems with the same 96-input configuration used back in the LA studio, which was partly made possible because the PowerCore platform provides many of the same plug-ins previously available only to Pro Tools users." 
_

Pretty amazing stuff, wouldn't you say? So essentially what it sounds like they're saying is that with a few Firewire PowerCore Systems one could compete with a Pro Tools system in the real world - a fact I find amazing price-wise - yet still without compromise.


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## DonnieChristian (Sep 26, 2004)

Yes, powerwise absolutely.... however where PT still has the advantage is number of plugins and cross user compatibilty. PC has a long ways to go to catch up with the sheer number of plugins but in it's defense PT has been out for decades...


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## Scott Cairns (Sep 26, 2004)

One issue I know of with the Powercore (and maybe the UAD-1 too) is that it clashes with Delta 1010 cards. 

Apparently the Delta card hogs the PCI bus more than some other sound cards. It is very likely that it would cause problems with the UAD card too.

One composer I know had to put his Powercore card in a slave machine and access it via FX teleport. It wouldnt get along with the Delta 1010 in his host system.


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## Frederick Russ (Sep 26, 2004)

I wonder if the Firewire version would prove less of a conflict than the PCI version (including UAD?)


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## Scott Cairns (Sep 26, 2004)

Quite possibly Frederick. Isnt the Firewire version 3 or 4 times the price though?


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## Scott Cairns (Sep 26, 2004)

Actually, it appears that the Firewire is around $500 more than the PCI card, roughly three times the Element card;

http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/processing/specialpurpose/tcelectronic/powercore.html (http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/proc ... rcore.html)


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## Jack Weaver (Sep 26, 2004)

Dear Frederick,

In my case, I use a G5 (as I believe you do also) and when I was referring to conflicts I was meaning those problems caused by using both a PCI-based Powercore and a PCI-based UAD-1 within the same G5 chassis. But you bring up an interesting point. I might consider getting a UAD (of course, a PCI card) and a firewire Powercore. 

Since I have my audio interface (Pro Tools 002R) on the FW400 and all my sample libraries on the FW800 chain - where would be the best place to put a FW Powercore? 

Any help out there from anyone who has previously played the part of a willing guinea pig on this issue?

Thanks,

Jack


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## CJ (Sep 26, 2004)

Donnie might help there since he has the TC but I don't know if its firewire... hmmmm


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## CJ (Sep 26, 2004)

Scott Cairns said:


> Actually, it appears that the Firewire is around $500 more than the PCI card, roughly three times the Element card;
> 
> http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/processing/specialpurpose/tcelectronic/powercore.html (http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/proc ... rcore.html)



Sweetwater (who's prices aren't the best) can drop $100 off this price. That's not the point though - I agree its expensive :(


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## Jack Weaver (Sep 26, 2004)

Also, I wonder how this little jewel works into the puzzle, um ...solution?

http://www.tcelectronic.com/PowerCoreCompact

I'd didn't see anywhere in the lit that it wouldn't work on a desktop. Maybe I need to read further into it the multiple pages of info on it.


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## Frederick Russ (Sep 27, 2004)

Jack Weaver said:


> Also, I wonder how this little jewel works into the puzzle, um ...solution?
> 
> http://www.tcelectronic.com/PowerCoreCompact
> 
> I'd didn't see anywhere in the lit that it wouldn't work on a desktop. Maybe I need to read further into it the multiple pages of info on it.



This is cool - a small firewire version? Interesting.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Sep 27, 2004)

Another (poor man's?) approach to offloading the DAW's CPU is to use FX-Teleport for convolution plugins. One of the (currently) two impulses in my mixer template runs on an old P3/733 file server. It's a long and dense impulse from Ernest that I use for brass and percussion. The latency is still very nicely in the ER region (1024 sample buffer).


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## DonnieChristian (Sep 27, 2004)

CJ said:


> Donnie might help there since he has the TC but I don't know if its firewire... hmmmm




Mine is the PCI version running on a dual G4. The other PCI slots I have are the RME 9652 which takes up two slots and the powercore. Seems like I vaguely remember having to move the PC around a slot or two to get it to work right. Since then though it's been rock solid.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Sep 27, 2004)

Check this site out. 
http://www.chrismilne.com/uadforums/viewforum.php?f=1&sid=5acfd3e84e9e313afa589e80f9ec1fe7
It has some threads about comparing the PC and the UAD. Of course since this is a UAD site it might be a little biased :? 
The arguments are valuable anyway.
I use a UAD all the time. This is the best investment I ever made. Everything about the plugs is outstanding. The guitar module might not be as good as the PC (I haven't heard the PC guitar module yet) but I got some great guitar tracks from UAD Nigel anyway. A friend of mine has a 1010 on a PC and the UAD is giving him no prob.
When reading from most producers/engineers, the most important elements of mixing is EQ and compression.
Of course because of dry orchestral libraries, the reverb is important to some, in which case the UAD is not the best choice. For everything else, it is amazing. As soon as I can afford it, I'll get a PC as well.


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## Simon Ravn (Sep 27, 2004)

The UAD plugins are so smooth, that's what I like about them. You can do automation on them and it sounds really smooth - no "zipper noises" or other artifacts. Try the phaser, the flanger, the choruses... smooth is the word. I mainly just use the Cambridge EQ though - and sometimes the Pultec, and the LN1176 for compression on drum tracks.

And the card has become very cheap. I have two of them, paid quite a bit more than what they cost today.


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## CJ (Sep 27, 2004)

Agreed. I had one in a G4/533/os 9 before they upgraded the card to work in a G5, so after waiting for months for the card to be compatible and run in os x, I sold the computer and card as a package deal. 

I assume they've resolved the voltage problem so it now works in G5? Because I really miss it and want to run it in logic.


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## Mike M (Sep 27, 2004)

Patrick de Caumette said:


> The guitar module might not be as good as the PC (I haven't heard the PC guitar module yet) but I got some great guitar tracks from UAD Nigel anyway.



Hmm - so the powercore is supposed to have a slightly better guitar module? I can't decide which to get :o but I've heard nigel is pretty cool.


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## Anonymous (Sep 27, 2004)

OK, it seems that the only way to get the best of both worlds - the bright Euro reverb and the smooth dynamics plugins - is to have both the Powercore and the UAD. 
I guess ultimately in my situation I would like to see the UAD PCI card and the new compact Powercore firewire solution on my G5. In order to do this in a way that maximizes my hardware I would have to decide if the Powercore would go on theFW400 buss (that has the audio interface) or the FW800 buss that has two drives with all my sample libraries on it. (I record to a second internal SATA drive.) 
Anyone have any opinions or knowledge on this matter? I understand that the FW buss theoretically can handle many more devices but I wonder about the day-to-day reality of this. My first inclination would be to put it on the FW400 bus with my audio interface since during mixing it would be less active than the other buss with the libraries. 
This has been a good thread. Thanks for all the input. 

Regards,
Jack


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## Jack Weaver (Sep 27, 2004)

Sorry, I was in a hurry. Forgot to login on the last post.

Jack


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## todo10 (Sep 27, 2004)

<sorry 'bout that - I didn't tweak forum settings in this one - its fixed...>


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## CJ (Sep 27, 2004)

Jack Weaver said:


> OK, it seems that the only way to get the best of both worlds - the bright Euro reverb and the smooth dynamics plugins - is to have both the Powercore and the UAD.
> I guess ultimately in my situation I would like to see the UAD PCI card and the new compact Powercore firewire solution on my G5. In order to do this in a way that maximizes my hardware I would have to decide if the Powercore would go on theFW400 buss (that has the audio interface) or the FW800 buss that has two drives with all my sample libraries on it. (I record to a second internal SATA drive.)
> Anyone have any opinions or knowledge on this matter? I understand that the FW buss theoretically can handle many more devices but I wonder about the day-to-day reality of this. My first inclination would be to put it on the FW400 bus with my audio interface since during mixing it would be less active than the other buss with the libraries.
> This has been a good thread. Thanks for all the input.
> ...



I wonder though how well the tc and uad interact? That would be a really cool set up if you can get it to work. Good luck! And let us know how you did.


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## Scott Cairns (Sep 27, 2004)

Thanks for all the great information everyone is contributing, its hard to know which card to get!

One question I have, does the PCI card (UAD or Powercore) immediately take on the sample rate set in your sequencer or does it process audio internally at a higher sample rate (96kHz I would imagine) and then spit it back out at the host speed again?

Thanks.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Sep 27, 2004)

Scott, why do have to ask complicated questions?
Just play your keyboard and be still :wink: 

Seriously, I don't know if the UAD samples at a higher rate or not.
Whether you record at 41 or 48 Khz the card sounds great. I know some of its plugs (the Pultec) works at 64 bit oversample.


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## Scott Cairns (Sep 27, 2004)

Hey be nice! I just said nice things about you on NS. 

LOL!


I guess the main thing is that these FX sound so great, so I really shouldnt worry about it....


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## Frederick Russ (Sep 27, 2004)

Patrick de Caumette said:


> Just play your keyboard and be still :wink:



The technical road term is "shut up and play yer guitar" 

Actually - the more I think about this issue the more I'm leaning back towards the UAD-1 PCI Card. It's cheaper, the plug-ins are great, and the options are fantastic - like the Cambridge EQ and the Precision Limiter. I have Altiverb so I may go this way to start. If I want more I may seriously look at the TC Powercore Compact Firewire box.


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## Jack Weaver (Sep 28, 2004)

But wait...there's more!

Yes, I do want both systems too - the UAD PCI card and the Powercore Compact. I spent some time investigating tonight and it's not quite as smooth as I thought for my particular circumstance. I would like them both to work on my G5 with Logic and Pro Tools 002R (LE).

UAD got back to me and told me that it's OK to install both AU (Logic) and RTAS (PTLE). However Powercore does not support either RTAS or VST>RTAS Wrapper. 

So if I want to use Powercore I'm going to have to mix in Logic. Since that's what I'd prefer to do that's kinda OK but I sure don't appreciate being locked in to that answer.

Compromised yet still smiling,

Jack


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## Jack Weaver (Sep 29, 2004)

PF,

The list price in USD is $995 for Compact.

You could get the Element version for a little more than half that (with dealer discount) - although you won't get all the new-fangled effects proceessing plugins. You would however get the great reverbs which IMHO is the best part of the package.

Best regards,

Jack


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## CJ (Sep 29, 2004)

Hey Jack,

Where did you get the price for that? I've been looking 'round and haven't located it. Music store? Which one?

Thanks,

Chris


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## Jack Weaver (Sep 29, 2004)

Hi,

I got the price for Powercore Element by a Google search. I forgot which place it was. However, they simply displayed the list price. 

Also...more info from TC directly regarding the Pro Tools LE:

"Yes, the Powercore Compact -- as well as the Firewire -- will work with both desktops and laptops as it connects via Firewire400. The included plugins come in the VST and AudioUnits formats which means you will need to purchase the VST>RTAS wrapper from www.fxpansion.com in order to be able to use the plugins in ProTools.
Although the usage of plugin-wrappers is a configuration not supported by TC, I know of several commercial studio projects done with ProTools LE and the Powercore, with great success."

So evidently they don't support RTAS - but they do. Ah, the ambivalence of the promise of modern techology. So what do think that means?
My guess, "We don't want to support Digidesign because they are big and powerful and we have had some products that in the past that were competitive with their products, but psst, hey buddy, it does work."

TC is very fortunate that make a great reverb algorithm. And thery really do. 

Regards,

Jack


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## Jack Weaver (Oct 1, 2004)

Yeah, I know what you mean. 

I have the Performance Set and the Cube and couldn't stop wanting the other so I just bought QLSO Platinum strings when they were on sale for 30% off a couple of weeks ago. 

You know, some manufacturers have just half of the best stuff. 

Now since it looks like I'm gonna get the Logic upgrade I'm pretty swamped with learning curve issues. Really it's not only the learning curve on the techonology, but a major amount of time and energy to get a keen appreciation of all the wonderful ways to use these great new tools. Each sound has it's own place. Each software feature allows for new work methods. 

Preaching to the choir...

Jack


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## CJ (Oct 1, 2004)

Before you get the Logic upgrade, wait. There is currently an issue with new AU authorizations with Native Instruments stuff (including QLSO) - NI is currently working on doing the updates. _In other words, your NI plugs may not work in Logic 7 yet!_


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## Jack Weaver (Oct 1, 2004)

Darn...if we aren't off on to another whole topic string.

That's my way of saying I sure would like to hear more about this Logic/AU/NI stuff before I begin to beat my head against the wall over it. 

However, it may not be totally fair to those who might want to continue talking about the UAD/Powercore conumdrum. Maybe the admin can move this for us?

BTW, thanks for the heads up on this.

Jack


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## Frederick Russ (Oct 2, 2004)

Let's get things back on topic.

I found it really interesting that the Powercore Compact was $995. I assume that its because it has double the capacity of available plug ins since its double the price of the card?


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## CJ (Oct 2, 2004)

Frederick - check out the information page on TC Powercore:

http://www.tcelectronic.com/default.asp?id=3994

According to the site, PowerCore Element (PCI Card) includes nine standard plug-ins: 

Classic Verb ? classic reverb processor 
Mega Reverb ? TC reverb processor 
Chorus/delay ? modulation multi-FX 
EQSat Custom ? parametric EQ 
Vintage CL ? channel compressor/ limiter 
24/7 C ? virtual limiting amplifier
Voice Strip - voice processing channel
PowerCore 01 ? synthesizer
Tubifex - guitar amp simulator.
PowerCore Compact, the new portable PowerCore solution, also includes: 

Master X3 - virtual incarnation of the TC Electronic Finalizer? 
Filtroid ? dual ?analog? filter bank 
Character? - brand new plug-in from Noveltech, which identifies and enhances characteristics in the instrument- or vocal source
The PowerCore Compact comes with a 266 MHz PowerPC and two 150 MHz Motorola DSPs each with 512 Kb Ram, and it connects instantly to computers via FireWire connectors. According to TC, multiple PowerCore Compacts can be combined with each other or with several PowerCore FireWires and/or PowerCore Elements for even more power. Like all PowerCore devices, PowerCore Compact supports any VST or Audio Unit based digital audio workstation. It has the capability to run multiple reverbs, virtual Finalizers and other high-end effects simultaneously (although I'm not finding a performance comparison chart between the element, compact and firewire versions.)


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## Frederick Russ (Oct 3, 2004)

Thanks CJ! I don't always have time to scour the net so this really helps.


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## ChrisAxia (Oct 3, 2004)

Hey Guys,

Just thought I`d join in the conversation here even though I haven`t read the whole thread. I have had a UAD card for sometime now and love what it does. The compressors are great. LA2A for smooth vocals is perfect. 1176 for a `harder` sound and is really nice for rock drums. The Pultec and Cambridge EQs are really nice, although for mastering, I really like the Voxengo Gliss EQ as well.

While most people agree that the Powercore reverbs may be more suited for general purposes, there are some instances where the Realverb and Dreamverb work very well.

I haven`t had a chance to use it on orchestral stuff, so I`m not sure what the benefit would be to be honest, but for song production I think the UAD is great.

Chris


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## CJ (Oct 4, 2004)

Agreed. I'm really looking forward to seeing how both the UAD and the Powercore interact - sounds like the best of both worlds.


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## Jack Weaver (Oct 4, 2004)

Can't quite seem to cut this thread loose. I really would like to move on to new territory but there is more story here. It's like a good thriller novel that keeps spinning out its tale of intrigue. 

I spent a little more quality time with the nice folks at UAD regarding the combo of it and Powercore. They have been very courteous, forthcoming and prompt in all their responses to my questions. 
(First let me say that they contend there is no problem with interfacing with G5's.)
I asked if there was any conflict in using a PCI Powercore in the same G5 as a UAD. They said that it would be OK. It's a lot less money to get Powercore Element - the PCI version that has the reverbs but not Master X3, Filtroid and Character- than to get the Powercore Compact firewire version with those new plugs. Surprisingly they (UAD) added the comment that if I had a firewire interface (and I do use the 002R) I would not want to get a firewire version of the Powercore. 
I don't really know why or with what authority they might say that. I always thought that you could have several firewire devices on the same buss and not have any problems. Although I haven't really tested that myself because heretofore I've always been a SCSI and Fibre Channel hardware kind of guy. 
Also apparently, the Powercore firewire versions only work on a FW400 buss - interesting info for G5 owners out there. 
So now at this point, I plan to get a PCI Powercore Element and the UAD Studio Pak. 
I'll save hundereds of dollars, hopefully won't have any PCI or firewire conflicts and have all the reverbs and vintage processing plugs that I will need for Pro Tools and Logic. 

So, there we have it... until any more layers of intrigue are available. 

Best regards,

Jack


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## Frederick Russ (Oct 5, 2004)

That's good news. I've been a little concerned with PCI conflicts since I'm also running the Motu PCI424 audio card as well. In a perfect world this would work - unfortunately... which is why I've been extra cautious. Let me know how this works! I have a G5 as well, so some input would really help before I too make the plunge.


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## Scott Cairns (Oct 5, 2004)

I've been doing a lot of reading on the UAD and Powercore cards lately.

It seems that a lot of users (UAD more specifically) are turning off firewire to free up the PCI bus. This does seem to be more for guys running 3 or 4 cards in one machine though.

Another trick is to turn off old com ports, printer ports etc if your motherboard has them and your not using them.

This has been spefically to address the issue of pops and crackles on the card. There is also a program called; ltcycfg.exe for tweaking PCI latencies.

Oh, and some guys are turning off busmastering on their video cards.

Dont know if this helps anyone specifically, but depending on your system and its requirements, a firewire card may not neccassarily be smooth sailing as it may hog the PCI buss. (Only going by what I read though!)


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## Frederick Russ (Oct 5, 2004)

Interesting! Thank you for this, Scott.

I wonder what two powercore compacts (firewire) would do in one machine :?:


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## Mike M (Oct 8, 2004)

According to TC Electronic:

"Hook up to 4 PowerCore Compact?s into the same system via the FireWire connectors, combine it with the PowerCore FireWire for even more power, or hook it up to a system already running with PowerCore Element installed. For maximum flexibility we designed the PowerCore Compact to be highly portable. All you need to get your production environment on the move is a PowerCore Compact, a laptop and a plane ticket! "

4 PowerCore Compacts in one system? Wow.

M M


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## pitchdrifter (Oct 8, 2004)

Using an uad1 together with a powercore pci here. Its a bit of an aged DAW (p4 1.8ghz, Gigabyte 8IRXP mobo, 1gig DDR 2100 ram).
I did disable everything in the BIOS that I don't need (com ports, lpt ports, usb2, floppy disk controller, promise raid controller).
Then assigned some IRQs to the pci slots (after I had win2k installed in standardPC mode), so ultimately there are no IRQ conflicts, everything works *really* spiffy even though the machine is rather weak in terms of cpu (also the normal IDE controllers are ata100, not 133 yet, so the installed HDs aren't operating at peak performance even).
Soundcard is rme hdsp w/ digiface. Works fine at 1.5 and 3ms latency, but then the cpu gets eaten by VSTi synths which I use plenty of, so I'm using 6ms whenever I need to load the CPU up to bursting with VSTis and effects.
The DSP cards work nicely in this setup (they have their own IRQ like everything else does).

What should be considered is that theres problems with dual opteron mainboards (MSI and Tyan in particular, the prior has trouble with powercore, the latter with UAD, resulting in huge cpu use even though the plugins are dsp based.. see DAW forum for reference).

Markus


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## CJ (Oct 8, 2004)

Thanks for that MarkusH - I've heard of problems with the opteron mainboards (thanks for the heads up regarding MSI & Tyan) - if its hitting the CPU what's the point? Because not hitting the CPU is the idea, or am I missing something.


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