# New MacBooks m2 will top at 32gb of ram



## gsilbers (Jul 12, 2021)

Bummer 




__





Next-gen MacBook Pros might top out at 32GB of RAM | Cult of Mac






www.cultofmac.com


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 12, 2021)

Remember, these are rumors.


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## emilio_n (Jul 12, 2021)

This and the rumours about the iMac with M1X, M2 or whatever maybe will arrive in late 2022 make me reconsider buy an iMac 2020 right now or even explore the PC route after years of using Macs.

I understand that the technology maybe is not ready yet, but a more clear roadmap for the professional lineup is a must for this kind of big investment. But yes, Apple lies on rumours, hype and small gradual updates every year.


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## Soundbed (Jul 12, 2021)

32GB is fine for me, it’s what I use today. I have a machine with 64GB that sits around waiting for me to make it a slave lol


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## emilio_n (Jul 12, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> 32GB is fine for me, it’s what I use today. I have a machine with 64GB that sits around waiting for me to make it a slave lol


I have an iMac late 2015 with 32Gb of RAM and I can't load big templates but maybe is more a problem with the processor (i7 4 GHz Quad-Core)


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## rnb_2 (Jul 12, 2021)

Title of topic says "will", but the link quoted says "might".


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## gzapper (Jul 12, 2021)

Then there are other rumours that say the M1X could have 64 gigs RAM and be more powerful than then M2.








Apple M1X vs M2 chip: What we know so far — and what it means for new MacBooks


Here's everything we know about the next generation of Apple silicon




www.tomsguide.com


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## rnb_2 (Jul 12, 2021)

gzapper said:


> Then there are other rumours that say the M1X could have 64 gigs RAM and be more powerful than then M2.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What will likely play out over multiple generations is that the base M(digit) processor will be for low end machines, and will prioritize low power use, long battery life, and low price more than outright performance. The base chip will be followed by a M(digit)X variant with more Performance and GPU cores, and that variant will remain faster in multi-core performance than the M(digit+1) processor that follows on its heels, in spite of lower performance per core.

This is how things have played out for the iPad Pro vs iPhone processors: the fastest per-core devices are all based on the current iPhone SOC (currently, the A14 in the iPhone 12/Pro and iPad Air 4), but the overall fastest devices (before the M1 iPad Pros are added to Geekbench's tables) are the A12X/Z iPad Pros, due to higher Performance Core count (4 vs 2).


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## davidson (Jul 13, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> 32GB is fine for me, it’s what I use today. I have a machine with 64GB that sits around waiting for me to make it a slave lol


Bear in mind the ram on arm macs is shared between the gpu and the rest of the system though, so not really 32gb as we're used to.


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## Michael Antrum (Jul 13, 2021)

I moved from a Mac to a PC for my mobile system, as at the time the MacBook Pro was less than ideal (keyboard and thermal issues). My desktop rig is still Mac however.

Whilst I still prefer the Mac, Windows 10 has been pretty good, and if Apple don't have anything for me in the next couple of years that is sensibly priced, well then I think I'll be, albeit reluctantly, moving on.


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## Sovereign (Jul 13, 2021)

32gb max for a pro machine seems pretty crappy to me. Hope this rumor is not true.


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## el-bo (Jul 13, 2021)

Sovereign said:


> 32gb max for a pro machine seems pretty crappy to me. Hope this rumor is not true.


32gb is more than the majority will need. A lot of professionals will be making a living on half that amount.


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## thesteelydane (Jul 13, 2021)

That would suck and would put a serious dent in my plans, but just like the 64GB rumor this is just that…a rumor. Let’s hope for the best.


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## Soundbed (Jul 13, 2021)

davidson said:


> Bear in mind the ram on arm macs is shared between the gpu and the rest of the system though, so not really 32gb as we're used to.


True although I recently learned through my 16GB M1 MBP testing (I bought one and tested it for about a week while my 2018 Intel MBP was getting a swollen battery replaced) that I can lower preload sizes to save a bit from what I’m used to.


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## Technostica (Jul 13, 2021)

davidson said:


> Bear in mind the ram on arm macs is shared between the gpu and the rest of the system though, so not really 32gb as we're used to.


The same is true of my Intel desktop and has been the case for years unless you add a discrete GPU.
There’s no guarantee that future generations will also only use on chip RAM.
Seems highly unlikely that will happen due to space and thermal constraints.


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## Michael Antrum (Jul 13, 2021)

64Gb RAM, 12 Hour Battery life, for less than the Gross National Product of Luxembourg.

Tell Tim to get it sorted.


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## easyrider (Jul 13, 2021)

Wouldn’t surprise me….tech giants drip feed consumers…..that’s what they do…to maximise profits.


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## danwool (Jul 13, 2021)

32gb sounds low, but has it been established that the metric used to calculate RAM needs is the same with AS as it has in the past? With everything on a chip it seems like that relationship might change. 

M1s have been around for several months now. Are 1st gen M1 users reporting that their machines aren't capable of doing do pro work at their previous, usual levels because of RAM limitations?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 13, 2021)

emilio_n said:


> I understand that the technology maybe is not ready yet,



Bear in mind that there's a chip shortage affecting the entire computer industry and every other one that uses chips. It's very far-reaching, although likely temporary and according to a CFO type I know (my brother) it's starting to ease.


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## charlieclouser (Jul 13, 2021)

danwool said:


> 32gb sounds low, but has it been established that the metric used to calculate RAM needs is the same with AS as it has in the past? With everything on a chip it seems like that relationship might change.
> 
> M1s have been around for several months now. Are 1st gen M1 users reporting that their machines aren't capable of doing do pro work at their previous, usual levels because of RAM limitations?


This is exactly the case. The old Intel-era assumptions about how much RAM you need to run X instances of plugin Y are no longer etched in stone. Maybe scribbled in Jello? 

But I think we'll find that as the M-series chips mature you'll have a 32gb 10-core M-series machine performing on par with (or better than) a 64gb 16-core Intel machine. The Intel boxes will start to seem noisy, hot, and inefficient by comparison. 

Kind of like comparing a Tesla to a Hemi-powered Dodge. (Mind you, I don't own a Tesla and I'm a Dodge fanatic with multiple Hemi cars!). The Tesla has like six moving parts and you just push a button and launch with unbelievable thrust, while the Hemi has thousands of moving parts, all of which must be in perfect alignment, fully lubricated, and machined to tolerances of a thousandth of an inch or else costly total mechanical failure will occur instantly. And it doesn't launch nearly as hard as a Tesla.

When we tell our great-grandkids that "back in my day, a car had a little furnace in the front, and it would burn toxic flammable liquid in little spurts, perfectly timed by a complex system of mechanical linkages, and convert a small portion of the energy produced into rotational force on the back wheels, although most of the energy was lost to heat and noise"....

.... they'll think we're telling tall tales.

I predict that the Apple Silicon experience will be similar.


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## thesteelydane (Jul 13, 2021)

danwool said:


> Are 1st gen M1 users reporting that their machines aren't capable of doing do pro work at their previous, usual levels because of RAM limitations?


Yes they are, RAM is still RAM even if the M1 is very fast at writing overflow to disk. You can not not run a big template of sampled instruments on an M1 with only 16GB RAM.


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## Wunderhorn (Jul 13, 2021)

With this math I guess the M8 will then be capped at 128GB. Still I'd require more.


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## Michael Antrum (Jul 13, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> When we tell our great-grandkids that "back in my day, a car had a little furnace in the front, and it would burn toxic flammable liquid in little spurts, perfectly timed by a complex system of mechanical linkages, and convert a small portion of the energy produced into rotational force on the back wheels, although most of the energy was lost to heat and noise"....
> 
> .... they'll think we're telling tall tales.
> 
> I predict that the Apple Silicon experience will be similar.


I recently mentioned VHS to some 'younger people'......

Blank stares all round. I decided to refrain from mentioning 8 Track.....


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## Nico5 (Jul 13, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> When we tell our great-grandkids that "back in my day, a car had a little furnace in the front, and it would burn toxic flammable liquid in little spurts, perfectly timed by a complex system of mechanical linkages, and convert a small portion of the energy produced into rotational force on the back wheels, although most of the energy was lost to heat and noise"....


what a delightful way of phrasing it -- now I'm genuinely curious what kind of paragraph you would write about hardware modular synths.


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## charlieclouser (Jul 13, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> what a delightful way of phrasing it -- now I'm genuinely curious what kind of paragraph you would write about hardware modular synths.


Probably similar... but I do have about 2,800hp of EuroRack taking up a good chunk of floor space at the moment.... and I just got a Typhoon module in the mail, I'm waiting for a Trogotronic M-277 v4 to arrive, and this afternoon I'm going over to Perfect Circuit for a Maestro and any Instruo stuff they might have.

So, from cars to synths it's bad decisions all around over here.


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## khollister (Jul 13, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Probably similar... but I do have about 2,800hp of EuroRack taking up a good chunk of floor space at the moment.... and I just got a Typhoon module in the mail, I'm waiting for a Trogotronic M-277 v4 to arrive, and this afternoon I'm going over to Perfect Circuit for a Maestro and any Instruo stuff they might have.
> 
> So, from cars to synths it's bad decisions all around over here.


I may be biased (and old) but Mopar and modular don't sound like bad decisions to me


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## Geoff Grace (Jul 13, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Remember, these are rumors.


Luke Miani is a YouTube vlogger. He's admittedly very knowledgeable about Macs, but he doesn't have a history as an insider who might be privy to Apple's secrets. I'm not sure where his "exclusive leaks" came from, but I'm taking them with more than a grain of salt.

Best,

Geoff


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## InLight-Tone (Jul 13, 2021)

All those YouTube Vloggers are making a decent living creating streams of speculation videos that are quite often completely off the mark. Sign of the times...


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## storyteller (Jul 13, 2021)

Michael Antrum said:


> I recently mentioned VHS to some 'younger people'......
> 
> Blank stares all round. I decided to refrain from mentioning 8 Track.....


My daughter is 15, nearly 16. When she was around seven or eight, she referred to the movies she watched at her grandmothers house as “fat tapes.“ I nearly died laughing when I realized that she was talking about VHS tapes. 😂


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## Michael Antrum (Jul 14, 2021)

Kids today will never know the joy of a mix tape on casette and a pencil.......


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 14, 2021)

My kids don't understand the concept of "scheduled programming" having been brought up on a diet of Netflix etc.

_On the AS vs Intel thing:_
Randomly, I received my Intel 2019 MbB the same day as I was tasked with setting up my mother-in-laws iPad. Starting with the iPad felt like the future. Cool to the touch, fast, silent. Next, I turned on the (brand new) MbP. It was hot within 2 mins. The fan started and didn't let up for an hour. It felt archaic next to the iPad. Charlie is correct. It's next level stuff.

_On the ram issue:_
I'm starting to get the inkling that those with a disposition for high ram counts are going to need AS MacPros. Everyone else (media editors, coders) are rocking just fine on the lower counts and it's these folks that Apple are primarily catering for.


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## Michael Antrum (Jul 14, 2021)

If the developers of alternative Player engines put some attention into only loading samples that are used in RAM, then high RAM counts would be less of an issue. There must be a more intelligent way of smart handling RAM through an intelligent DAW - Player link.

Imagine a DAW when you click on a track, loads the required samples, and then when you click on a different track, automatically unloads all the unused samples. That sort of smart will mean we don't need as much RAM.

Alternatively, how about nicking an idea from the DTP brigade. They use lower res images when laying out a magazine, and then use the hi res ones when it comes to rendering it out for production. Lower res samples for arranging, then render out the hi res ones for spit and polish.....


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## Soundbed (Jul 14, 2021)

danwool said:


> 32gb sounds low, but has it been established that the metric used to calculate RAM needs is the same with AS as it has in the past? With everything on a chip it seems like that relationship might change.
> 
> M1s have been around for several months now. Are 1st gen M1 users reporting that their machines aren't capable of doing do pro work at their previous, usual levels because of RAM limitations?


This question has many answers.
To have an Intel Apples to M1 Apples comparison, you’d need to be using a MBP with 16GB RAM “doing pro work” in the first place.
Put simply, I am still finishing some tests… but within three days of using the 16GB MBP I was looking for every trick I could to reduce my RAM footprint in my sample libraries. Play and Sine don’t purge dynamically like Kontakt and I never got the beta version of the ARO plugin working. I was reducing the preload buffer of Kontakt to save RAM and for a short while had 96 orchestral instrument tracks running, with about 30GB swap file but the system was unstable and crashed every time. About 64 instruments playing different notes and using mod wheel could run and be pretty stable. Is this enough to get pro work done? (Answers will differ. Some will say yes. Others won’t want to adapt or change workflow.)
So, some will say to bounce tracks.
That will work for some, although if you need to insert bars for quick edits you will be unfreezing a lot of tracks which might still take valuable minutes even with the faster processor.
Some will say everything is running in Rosetta 2. Well okay so maybe 16GB on chip memory will feel faster after all the DAWs and all your favorite plugins get ported to run natively. When will that be? Months? By then we’ll be talking about and testing 32GB anyway.
Some will ask about running VEP. Others will say that defeats the purpose of having a (move-able) laptop.
I agree with @charlieclouser that they are different beasts. The tricks you’ve learned to “tame” your Intel will serve you well while learning to “tame” your M1.

But… you will learn new tricks (with an Mxx SOC).

The M1 MBP does indeed “feel” different and act differently. I really liked mine. There’s a lot to like. But I’m glad to have my Intel 2018 back from the shop (battery replacement) not only because it has 32GB RAM but because it’s the devil I know.

Apple has a two week return policy. I encourage people to try one for a couple weeks if you have the time and report your own findings.


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## davidson (Jul 14, 2021)

I could make do with 32gb tbh.


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 14, 2021)

davidson said:


> I could make do with 32gb tbh.


I’d give it a shot also, coupled with some fast TB3 storage. Mega templates look away, but provided one doesn’t go silly with the mics..


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## Fidelity (Jul 14, 2021)

"Pro" is a subjective term when it comes to apple, I guess. Just means "nicer more expensive version" to them or something. I'm happy with my arguably gimmicky $900 8-core laptop that can take 64gb of ram, personally, though of course I still drool over apple's aesthetics.


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## el-bo (Jul 14, 2021)

Fidelity said:


> "Pro" is a subjective term when it comes to apple, I guess. Just means "nicer more expensive version" to them or something. I'm happy with my arguably gimmicky $900 8-core laptop that can take 64gb of ram, personally, though of course I still drool over apple's aesthetics.


I wondered why you left a laughing emoji on my comment.

We just have different definitions of the word professional. I take it to apply to someone who earns money from their craft. And while that can definitely be someone running multiple servers of orchestral libraries using hundreds of gigs of RAM, I reckon (I'm betting Apple do, also) that that's a way smaller slice of the action. There are most definitely others who are making a living with music, who will never need more than 16g.

As for the question of the 'Pro' models just being a "nicer more expensive version"? I'd say that it's only with this 1st line of M laptops that the difference is marginal. But back when I got my first MacbookPro (2007), I also got a white MacBook. The difference between the two was much greater than now, as was the difference between the Pro and Air models leading up to this point.

The scoring and video editing Pro's are definitely going to get options, at some point, but I reckon it's going to get really expensive. Each doubling of RAM will likely be tied to an increase in CPU and GPU power, so going from 32gig to 64gig will be not trivial matter. Just speculating, of course.


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## Fidelity (Jul 14, 2021)

el-bo said:


> I wondered why you left a laughing emoji on my comment.
> 
> We just have different definitions of the word professional. I take it to apply to someone who earns money from their craft. And while that can definitely be someone running multiple servers of orchestral libraries using hundreds of gigs of RAM, I reckon (I'm betting Apple do, also) that that's a way smaller slice of the action. There are most definitely others who are making a living with music, who will never need more than 16g.
> 
> ...


Yeah, wildly different. I actually take it to mean "all creative professionals" and not just music when a company is marketing their product towards the entire segment. I agree with what you're saying regarding the differences - I too had a white MacBook in college before getting a pro model in ~2014 and there was a difference - but back then they were quite competitive with laptop PCs. The lack of upgradeability and now the reverse Rosetta situation are, to me, the final nails in the coffin. If you have the budget to keep upgrading, more power to you.


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 14, 2021)

el-bo said:


> The scoring and video editing Pro's are definitely going to get options, at some point, but I reckon it's going to get really expensive. Each doubling of RAM will likely be tied to an increase in CPU and GPU power, so going from 32gig to 64gig will be not trivial matter. Just speculating, of course.


I tend to agree. Also worth pointing out that the current iMac 27inch (for example) can be configured between 8gb and 128gb over 5 price tiers. Surely that sort of flexibility won't happen in a SOC world.

I think as a group, we'll eventually need to re-think our ram relationship, expectations and workflows. Either that, or we'll all be selling body parts for a Mac Pro.


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## colony nofi (Jul 14, 2021)

There are *definitely* m-series chips with 64GB (and above) of memory that are being tested / worked on by apple. The new MBP's *may* well top out at 32GB memory, but there's certain other bits of info that have slipped out saying that is a stop-gap measure only / a 6 to 9 month restriction. 

Now - definition of "professional" aside.

We just ran a rather interesting test.

Audio post. A bit surround mix for a sci-fi animation series. Was originally mixed on a 2013 mac pro. The m1 with 16GB ram easily ran the sessions, with only marginal increased CPU use.

As a bonus, it connects to the 10GbE file server without needing extra hardware. While I would prefer a little more headroom, these are awesome machines for post. One could mix a major studio film using 5 of these (in the same way many studios use 5 machines... 4 for playback and 1 for record)

We use nuendo - so for us it means everything (around 200 channels plus tonnes of routing to output 4 different mixes at once) in one box. We are also testing running all our studios on a dante network - which is tricky with m1 at the moment, but we got beta drivers working for focusrite interfaces. (virtual dante is NOT working with M1 yet.). 32 channels in and out is enough for us (max for the red16line interfaces)

Bang for buck wise, this is incredible. I'm going to test the M1 with some atmos mixes next...

But it bodes well for other forthcoming releases.


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## el-bo (Jul 14, 2021)

Fidelity said:


> Yeah, wildly different. I actually take it to mean "all creative professionals" and not just music


Well, there was a reason I used the word "craft" in my definition. I certainly wan't just talking about music 



Fidelity said:


> If you have the budget to keep upgrading, more power to you.


I don't have the budget for anything. If you could see the lengths I've gone to to keep using my 2012 MacbookPro, that would definitely be clear 

As a non-professional Logic-user (7 years since last paid upgrade), who can get by with 16gig and who prefers to buy second-hand, my potential next studio set-up will the most powerful and the cheapest I've ever owned


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## el-bo (Jul 14, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> I think as a group, we'll eventually need to re-think our ram relationship, expectations and workflows. Either that, or we'll all be selling body parts for a Mac Pro.


^ ^ This.

My personal prediction is that any eventual 64g MBP/Mini will end up in the 3-4k price-range, and that the jump from 32g to 64g will be in the 1-1.5k range. 

Templates *WILL* be tightened!


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## Fidelity (Jul 15, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Well, there was a reason I used the word "craft" in my definition. I certainly wan't just talking about music
> 
> 
> I don't have the budget for anything. If you could see the lengths I've gone to to keep using my 2012 MacbookPro, that would definitely be clear
> ...


Check out Staffpad if you have an iPad or Surface, b(r)o. I got suckered by the $59 pricetag and spent like $300+ today on libraries on sale like many others...some cold sweats but no regrets yet(s).


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## el-bo (Jul 15, 2021)

Fidelity said:


> Check out Staffpad if you have an iPad or Surface, b(r)o. I got suckered by the $59 pricetag and spent like $300+ today on libraries on sale like many others...some cold sweats but no regrets yet(s).


 

Sorry to laugh, but I'm trying to work out why such a left-field recommendation


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## Fidelity (Jul 15, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Sorry to laugh, but I'm trying to work out why such a left-field recommendation


You brought budget front and center. Also, it sounds amazing and is a proper workflow.


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## Soundbed (Jul 15, 2021)

Here’s a possible explanation for only 32GB:


> Apple follows the money, and knows exactly what the demand for the 64GB MacBook Pro is, and if there were demand for the obscenely priced $800 from 16GB to 64GB, Apple would be offering it.
> 
> Yes, some people are going to wish there was a 64GB option -- just as they wished for a 32GB option in 2016 -- but I'm betting that the numbers are small and that 32GB will be enough for pretty much everyone.











Will the new Apple Silicon MacBook Pro be a big downgrade for pros?


We want more of everything, but that doesn't always happen.




www.zdnet.com


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## el-bo (Jul 15, 2021)

Fidelity said:


> You brought budget front and center. Also, it sounds amazing and is a proper workflow.


The issue with my budget is it's non-existent. I'm not in need of a new computer, currently. Was just speculating for the future.

The reason I said it was left-field is due to various assumptions/presumptions. Not only do I not own a compatible iPad, but I don't have a lick of music-theory and am not currently interested in writing using this method. Even if I did, I'd still want a full 'puter for all the non-scoring stuff I'd want to write and to use all the lively software-instruments I've accumulated over the past16 years, or so.

Buying a compatible unit, even second-hand (It'd have to be a recent Pro, on account of the 120hz refresh-rate), Apple Pencil 2 and the software/libraries would actually work out equal to or more expensive than the current M1 Mini, and way more expensive than the 2nd-hand 2018 i5 Mini that would be the more likely option.

Either way, as old and ghetto as my current laptop is, I've just brought it back from the grave...once again. So I'm not in need of another computer. 

Don't get me wrong...I do appreciate the suggestion


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 15, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Here’s a possible explanation for only 32GB:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Really, that sounds about right. Perhaps also the case with the Mini. 

My bet is a possible new "iMac Pro" (the previous "normal" 27 inch proposition, rebranded, different screen) and Mac Pro as the only machines to share a common processor and ram configuration capable of feeding power hungry VIC users.


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## Jon W (Jul 15, 2021)

thesteelydane said:


> Yes they are, RAM is still RAM even if the M1 is very fast at writing overflow to disk. You can not not run a big template of sampled instruments on an M1 with only 16GB RAM.


I have not seen any reports. Could you provide some links?


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## storyteller (Jul 15, 2021)

Jon W said:


> I have not seen any reports. Could you provide some links?


I think he just means "ram is ram." Software still pushes its requests through ram and doesn't pull directly from disk or do anything magical by having "unified memory." That particular architecture just allows for a single pool of memory that reduces a few of the middle men that can cause double read/writes along the way. Basically this means that the M1 does not do anything magical ram wise that allows you to have less ram requirements. But, it does increase speed and efficiency of a CPU command that requires ram usage. Software still requires the ram it required before and pushes objects through ram in the same way. A lot of people seem to miss that point in hopes that this "unified memory" somehow does something that reduces ram requirements.


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## Soundbed (Jul 15, 2021)

I might as well drop this video into this thread in case it helps show that 16GB RAM / Unified Memory is still 16GB for sample libraries. What happens when you try to use more than your physical machine's RAM / Unified Memory (as I understand) is the system starts building a page file or swap file and this can grow and grow. But it's relatively much slower than RAM / Unified Memory and my Studio One 5 M1 MBP 1TB 16GB sessions were not stable when I was using a 31GB swap file (freezes, needing to force quit). There may be workarounds but then you are in the territory of learning to tame a new beast, as I was mentioning earlier.

Some of you have already seen the video so I apologise if it seems like spamming, but a few people have commented to me how few videos there are actually trying to things we have been discussing, so it still might be helpful / valuable to a couple individuals. That said I'm not really a Mac hardware tester; I was simply trying to get things done during a week without my 2018 MBP i9 and documenting my experience to share.

I also talk in the beginning of the video about the word "professional" in the context of VI-C types, and show that I could get 64 legato monophonic orchestral tracks playing with stability (shown again the next day / video with different music in the DAW that included percussion), and 96 tracks playing without being stable (using a 31GB swap file). However I only lowered the Kontakt preload sizes to 18kb, and could have tried the minimum of 6kb. There may have been other things I could have tried as well.

QUESTION:
Is 64-96 tracks of legato monophony playback "enough" for you to consider a system capable of helping you do "pro" work? If so, then 32GB 'unified memory' might be enough RAM in a MacBook "PRO" for you... I'm guessing one machine with 32GB unified memory could do around 100 orchestral tracks with stability, based on my experience with the M1 16GB.

This assumes you ARE willing to take actions to conserve RAM and work with the M1x / M2 versus expecting it to behave _exactly_ as an Intel with 128GB RAM might... because you'd have less RAM and would need to take actions accordingly.

If you need more than ~100 instrument tracks playing legato / percussion at once (thinking about # of voices here) and cannot bounce any to audio, then you might need a slave (again if your M1x or M2 only had 32GB).

Responding to:



thesteelydane said:


> RAM is still RAM even if the M1 is very fast at writing overflow to disk. You can not not run a big template of sampled instruments on an M1 with only 16GB RAM.





Jon W said:


> I have not seen any reports. Could you provide some links?





storyteller said:


> I think he just means "ram is ram." Software still pushes its requests through ram and doesn't pull directly from disk or do anything magical by having "unified memory." That particular architecture just allows for a single pool of memory that reduces a few of the middle men that can cause double read/writes along the way. Basically this means that the M1 does not do anything magical ram wise that allows you to have less ram requirements. But, it does increase speed and efficiency of a CPU command that requires ram usage. Software still requires the ram it required before and pushes objects through ram in the same way. A lot of people seem to miss that point in hopes that this "unified memory" somehow does something that reduces ram requirements.


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## gsilbers (Jul 15, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> I might as well drop this video into this thread in case it helps show that 16GB RAM / Unified Memory is still 16GB for sample libraries. What happens when you try to use more than your physical machine's RAM / Unified Memory (as I understand) is the system starts building a page file or swap file and this can grow and grow. But it's relatively much slower than RAM / Unified Memory and my Studio One 5 M1 MBP 1TB 16GB sessions were not stable when I was using a 31GB swap file (freezes, needing to force quit). There may be workarounds but then you are in the territory of learning to tame a new beast, as I was mentioning earlier.
> 
> Some of you have already seen the video so I apologise if it seems like spamming, but a few people have commented to me how few videos there are actually trying to things we have been discussing, so it still might be helpful / valuable to a couple individuals. That said I'm not really a Mac hardware tester; I was simply trying to get things done during a week without my 2018 MBP i9 and documenting my experience to share.
> 
> ...



Very cool video. didnt know you where makig these. 

where are you storing the samples for these tests? just internally?


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## Soundbed (Jul 15, 2021)

gsilbers said:


> Very cool video. didnt know you where makig these.
> 
> where are you storing the samples for these tests? just internally?


Hi! Yes a few were internal, others were from the M.2 I showed around 7:07, others were coming from Samsung Evo 860 1TB, and also some probably from [edit- 1.0TB Micron 5100 Pro Series 2.5-inch 7mm SATA 6.0Gb/s SSDs]. In other words potentially a hodgepodge, using USB 3.2 at least but all SSD of some sort and at least the fastest SATA speeds.

I really need to try loading the same sessions on my 32GB Intel but my studio time has been very limited for YT videos lately. Got some actual “work” to get done lol.


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## Soundbed (Jul 15, 2021)

@gsilbers ok well I tried loading that 96 track session quickly and my Intel i9 is struggling, cannot play it smoothly either. 

MacBook Pro (15-inch, 2018)
32 GB 2400 MHz DDR4
2.9 GHz Intel Core i9


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## gsilbers (Jul 15, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> @gsilbers ok well I tried loading that 96 track session quickly and my Intel i9 is struggling, cannot play it smoothly either.
> 
> MacBook Pro (15-inch, 2018)
> 32 GB 2400 MHz DDR4
> 2.9 GHz Intel Core i9



I had the i9 intel w 64 of ram and it was terrible. The heat and fan noise where out of this world. 

Im happy with the m1 laptop and tried loading as much as i can but had mixed results. The memory swap was wierd. Or sometimes it could load other times not. 
I dont stream a lot of samples at once but like having large template to choose sounds from. 
I might turn off the tracks and load them as i see fit. 

but very cool seeing you can do semi large sessions. 
to me it seems the memory vs hard drive stream is much different than before and therefore having SO much ram might not be as nesesary as before. but not sure. glad you are doing these. 
Every time these tech comparisons come up, there are tons of variables and ways to test.


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## Soundbed (Jul 15, 2021)

gsilbers said:


> I had the i9 intel w 64 of ram and it was terrible. The heat and fan noise where out of this world.
> 
> Im happy with the m1 laptop and tried loading as much as i can but had mixed results. The memory swap was wierd. Or sometimes it could load other times not.
> I dont stream a lot of samples at once but like having large template to choose sounds from.
> ...


there really are ... many variables to juggle. i could make it my job if someone would pay me lol.


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## Soundbed (Jul 15, 2021)

haha my Intel thinks it needs 250GB of RAM. You read that right. I was trying to quit the session. This is why I don't start testing during 'Studio Time' lol.


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## Vik (Jul 15, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> @gsilbers ok well I tried loading that 96 track session quickly and my Intel i9 is struggling, cannot play it smoothly either.
> 
> MacBook Pro (15-inch, 2018)
> 32 GB 2400 MHz DDR4
> 2.9 GHz Intel Core i9


Did you purge unused samples, use the an8k buffer in Kontakt , and play back the used samples from the same 7 gb/sec source, with the same transfer speed? I'm asking just because maybe the problem on the Intel Mac partially is due to other reasons.


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## Nico5 (Jul 15, 2021)

Genuine question: 

With modern NVMe SSD's (*not *SATA) and their incredibly high sequential i/o (e.g. Samsung 970 EVO Plus: 3500 MB/sec) and ridiculously high random operations (e.g. Samsung 970 EVO Plus:4KB, QD32 Random Read: Up to 600,000 IOPS 4KB, QD1 Random Read: Up to 19,000 IOPS) and a very fast path to the CPU (e.g. PCI 3 or 4), why wouldn't one return to the old approach of streaming samples from disk? 

Or is streaming samples from disk not possible with some large sample libraries?


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## Vik (Jul 15, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> their incredibly high sequential i/o (e.g. Samsung 970 EVO Plus: 3500 MB/sec)


https://vi-control.net/community/threads/7gb-second-drives-vs-other-drives-–-and-future-ram-needs.111939/#post-4869629

We'll probably have systems which can stream from 14 gb/second drives in the not too distant future.


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## Technostica (Jul 15, 2021)

The quote below from the link below is interesting. The good news is that a single core can almost saturate the memory controllers during reads is great for reading samples from RAM.
So this is great for having a very fast initial system response which is what many people have seemingly reported about the M1.
But that doesn’t mean that initial performance advantage will stand up over time or under heavier multithreaded loads.
So subjectively it may appear faster than it generally is due to this, not that this is a bad thing. 









The 2020 Mac Mini Unleashed: Putting Apple Silicon M1 To The Test







www.anandtech.com





“.. in terms of memory bandwidth. Inside of the M1, the results are ground-breaking: A single Firestorm achieves memory reads up to around 58GB/s, with memory writes coming in at 33-36GB/s. Most importantly, memory copies land in at 60 to 62GB/s depending if you’re using scalar or vector instructions. The fact that a single Firestorm core can almost saturate the memory controllers is astounding and something we’ve never seen in a design before.
Because one core is able to make use of almost the whole memory bandwidth, having multiple cores access things at the same time don’t actually increase the system bandwidth, but actually due to congestion lower the effective achieved aggregate bandwidth.”

With regard to streaming from disk, I haven’t seen a technical review which looks at that in a similar level to above.
The RAM chips and storage that Apple are using seem to be fairly standard.
So the gains above are seemingly due to the memory controller on the Apple M1 SoC and maybe other architectural features.
So if Apple have an equally impressive storage controller, that will be good news for streaming from disk performance.


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## Soundbed (Jul 15, 2021)

Vik said:


> Did you purge unused samples, use the an8k buffer in Kontakt , and play back the used samples from the same 7 gb/sec source, with the same transfer speed? I'm asking just because maybe the problem on the Intel Mac partially is due to other reasons.


Setup was extremely similar but yes there may have been factors I overlooked. Tbh I don’t usually try playing ~100 live midi tracks; I usually have some bounced to audio by that point.


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## storyteller (Jul 15, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> Genuine question:
> 
> With modern NVMe SSD's (*not *SATA) and their incredibly high sequential i/o (e.g. Samsung 970 EVO Plus: 3500 MB/sec) and ridiculously high random operations (e.g. Samsung 970 EVO Plus:4KB, QD32 Random Read: Up to 600,000 IOPS 4KB, QD1 Random Read: Up to 19,000 IOPS) and a very fast path to the CPU (e.g. PCI 3 or 4), why wouldn't one return to the old approach of streaming samples from disk?
> 
> Or is streaming samples from disk not possible with some large sample libraries?


Most sample libraries actually stream from disk. However, they require a certain amount of samples to be preloaded into ram... or a better way to say it is they require a certain amount of ram to be free in order to stream samples back and forth from the disk. Those samples flow through the ram. it isn’t the whole library loaded into ram... only a small portion of it... but 20gb of ram used on a single 100gb library is still a big enough memory footprint to cause headaches when managing your system ram in a project... which is what people talk about when discussing Ram usage in Kontakt. That likely isn’t changing anytime soon. Faster hard drive speeds mean that the samples can get moved from the ssd to ram much quicker, but unified memory isn’t a magical solution to just stream from the ssd. it might just provide faster access to the ssd. I am sure some smart people are working on this concept, but it seems to me like it would take low level system architecture to change this programmatically... and even then even NVMe SSDs would not perform nearly as well as ram for live performance or playback.


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## Jon W (Jul 16, 2021)

storyteller said:


> I think he just means "ram is ram." Software still pushes its requests through ram and doesn't pull directly from disk or do anything magical by having "unified memory." That particular architecture just allows for a single pool of memory that reduces a few of the middle men that can cause double read/writes along the way. Basically this means that the M1 does not do anything magical ram wise that allows you to have less ram requirements. But, it does increase speed and efficiency of a CPU command that requires ram usage. Software still requires the ram it required before and pushes objects through ram in the same way. A lot of people seem to miss that point in hopes that this "unified memory" somehow does something that reduces ram requirements.


He was also answering a question posed by danwool..

> Are 1st gen M1 users reporting that their machines aren't capable of doing do pro work at their
> previous, usual levels because of RAM limitations?

And his answer was "Yes they are, ..."

I was asking for links to such reports.


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## Soundbed (Jul 16, 2021)

Jon W said:


> I was asking for links to such reports


You’re asking for a link that shows an M1 with 16GB unified memory NOT able to execute what can be done on an Intel with 128GB RAM?


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## Jon W (Jul 17, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> You’re asking for a link that shows an M1 with 16GB unified memory NOT able to execute what can be done on an Intel with 128GB RAM?


Asking for links to reports from 1st gen M1 users "reporting that their machines aren't capable of doing do pro work.." because @thesteelydane said there were such reports.


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## Soundbed (Jul 17, 2021)

danwool said:


> Are 1st gen M1 users reporting that their machines aren't capable of doing do pro work at their previous, usual levels because of RAM limitations?





Jon W said:


> Asking for links to reports from 1st gen M1 users "reporting that their machines aren't capable of doing do pro work.." because @thesteelydane said there were such reports.


Something like this? (Skip to 2:30)

Edit - what we are saying in the thread is you you’d need to make changes to make 16GB unified memory work for you. Simply opening a session that plays using more RAM won’t necessarily play the same on a machine with less RAM. But there are tricks to make use of the faster processor and fast disk that will squeeze out all the performance you can get from an M1 with 16GB. Which is why I could eek out 64 tracks comfortably the next day, and 96 tracks with constant freezing in S1.


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## Ivan M. (Jul 17, 2021)

Oh, man, so frustrated with all this waiting for the upgraded m1 and more memory... I want to get rid of this hot and noisy intel so bad.


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## JackTrez (Jul 17, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> haha my Intel thinks it needs 250GB of RAM. You read that right. I was trying to quit the session. This is why I don't start testing during 'Studio Time' lol.


So could the claims of M1 being more efficient with ram be true? From your video M1 was trying to use 70+ GB vs 249gb on intel?


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## thesteelydane (Jul 18, 2021)

Jon W said:


> Asking for links to reports from 1st gen M1 users "reporting that their machines aren't capable of doing do pro work.." because @thesteelydane said there were such reports.


No, all I said was that there are reports that the RAM isn’t magical, so 16GB is still still 16GB. If that’s enough for the kind of work you do, you’ll be fine. I need at least 64GB though.


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## Jon W (Jul 18, 2021)

thesteelydane said:


> No, all I said was that there are reports that the RAM isn’t magical, so 16GB is still still 16GB. If that’s enough for the kind of work you do, you’ll be fine. I need at least 64GB though.


Lmao. Okay then, please post links to the reports that say "the RAM isn't magical."


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## Technostica (Jul 18, 2021)

Jon W said:


> Lmao. Okay then, please post links to the reports that say "the RAM isn't magical.


I would say that the onus is to prove that something is magical rather than to refute it.
Magic is rare, so on those few occasions when it it real, prove it.
Otherwise you are wasting time trying to disprove something that doesn't even exist.


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## thesteelydane (Jul 18, 2021)

Jon W said:


> Lmao. Okay then, please post links to the reports that say "the RAM isn't magical."


I think @Soundbed has already answered that question multiple times over. I honestly can’t be bothered to spend hours to try and find where I read the different reviews of the M1 as it relates to music production, it’s scattered around in many YouTube videos and forum posts. I’m just stating here what I have read in various places over the last few months to try and help you. If you don’t want to believe me, fine, do your own research. Or better yet, buy one and report back here with your findings.

EDIT: here you go, 2 M1 owners, the aforementioned Soundbed being one of them, in this thread saying essentially the same thing: when you pass the 16GB limit, you start to have problems. The M1 is surely a major leap forward in CPU power and it allows you to lower Kontakts preload buffer all the way down to 6kb as this guy demonstrates: 

But ram is still ram, and samplers still work in the same way. If you’re doing pro work with 16GB now, you’ll be more than fine. If you’re using more than 16 GB ram you can, as Soundbed suggested make some changes to your workflow to get by, but there’s no guarantee you will have a positive experience.


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## Jon W (Jul 19, 2021)

...but ram is still ram..

No, it isn't. Google it. "how does apple M1 handle RAM?" Even some users on this forum suggest 16Gb RAM on an M1 chip acts more like double that. There are no memory slots. No RAM chips soldered to a board. The RAM is part of the M1 chip.

I have an M1, for 6 months now. It handles anything I throw at it. Am I Hans Zimmer running templates with hundreds of tracks for commercial film production? No. Would an M1 system work for him? You'd have to ask him. Would it work for other 'pros'? My research says yes.


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## Technostica (Jul 19, 2021)

Jon W said:


> ...but ram is still ram..
> 
> No, it isn't. Google it. "how does apple M1 handle RAM?" Even some users on this forum suggest 16Gb RAM on an M1 chip acts more like double that. There are no memory slots. No RAM chips soldered to a board. The RAM is part of the M1 chip.


They are seemingly using LPDDR4X-4266 chips which are industry standard.
The chips are attached to the same packaging as the actual SoC, so not part of the SoC.
The electrical signals have to travel a smaller distance, but no idea if that is significant.

One review says that the memory controller on the SoC is exceptional, so that may well be the advantage, so not the actual RAM.
The other 'magic' is for apps that share data between the CPU cores and other processing units.
This because Apple are using a shared memory model.
Not sure this currently helps DAWs in a significant way!


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## Nico5 (Jul 19, 2021)

I found this paragraph interesting and potentially relevant to the discussion:



> There is of course a tradeoff in this strategy. Getting this high bandwidth memory (big servings) require full integration which means you take away the opportunity from customers to upgrade their memory. But Apple seeks to minimize this problem by making the communication with the SSD disks so fast, that they essentially work like old fashion memory.


Quoted from this article​
So as I currently interpret things, it's not really about Apple's RAM being magical, but that the communication with the SSD can be made fast enough to do many jobs formerly only possible in RAM.


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## EvilDragon (Jul 19, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> But I think we'll find that as the M-series chips mature you'll have a 32gb 10-core M-series machine performing on par with (or better than) a 64gb 16-core Intel machine.


I don't think you can compare RAM like that. As Malmsteen famously said "more is more", with more RAM you can simply preload more Kontakt instances in, that's it. There is no magic that will enable you to load more samples into less RAM (all other parameters like DFD buffer size etc staying the same).


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## thesteelydane (Jul 19, 2021)

Jon W said:


> ...but ram is still ram..
> 
> No, it isn't. Google it. "how does apple M1 handle RAM?" Even some users on this forum suggest 16Gb RAM on an M1 chip acts more like double that. There are no memory slots. No RAM chips soldered to a board. The RAM is part of the M1 chip.
> 
> I have an M1, for 6 months now. It handles anything I throw at it. Am I Hans Zimmer running templates with hundreds of tracks for commercial film production? No. Would an M1 system work for him? You'd have to ask him. Would it work for other 'pros'? My research says yes.


Wait, so this whole time asking me for reports you actually had an M1 and could have just turned it on and done your own tests? Wtf? I was trying to help you. Please tell us how many instances you can load, what the pre-load buffer size is, and how many voices you can play back simultaneously before it craps out. You'd do us all a huge favour.

I'm keenly interested in this because I'm super excited about the power of the M1, just disappointed in the memory specs offered so far. If you can load 32GB worth of samples into RAM and have no issues I will send you a case of beer! Or whatever you fancy, because that would make me very, very happy.

I do run a 500+ tracks template, and I don't think that's going to work on 16GB of RAM no matter how magical it is. And from what I've seen on this forum as soon as you pass the physical limit of 16GB it starts writing things to a swap file, which causes freezing and crackling. You can test this. I can't. So I hope you will and tell us what you find.


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## Technostica (Jul 19, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> I found this paragraph interesting and potentially relevant to the discussion:
> 
> 
> Quoted from this article​
> So as I currently interpret things, it's not really about Apple's RAM being magical, but that the communication with the SSD can be made fast enough to do many jobs formerly only possible in RAM.


That post you quoted has some incorrect info in it. 
The bandwidth and latency of the industry standard memory chips used are in line with the competition.
Putting them on the same package as the SoC doesn't alter the basic performance of the RAM chips. 
The RAM has at least ten times the bandwidth of the SSD and the latency difference is nano seconds versus micro seconds, which is a difference of three orders of magnitude. 

This shows just how well Apple have done using standard parts, but let's not get carried away. 
If they were dependent on 'magic' RAM for their performance it wouldn't bode well for their workstations due to space constraints. 
They have optimised the SoC and the O/S, that's where the real magic is. 

There is some magic RAM they can use called HBM2E and soon to be HBM3. 
You are looking there at a bandwidth of 2TB/s or more versus ~70GB/s of the M1. 

Based on how well they have done with current mainstream hardware, imagine what they might do with the combination of DDR5, PCIe 5.0 SSDs and HBM3?


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## dcoscina (Jul 19, 2021)

Only LPX runs natively on the M1 chips. All other DAWs operate under Rosetta.. I use S1 but I also have LPX and frankly the Mac Mini M1 I got last week is underwhelming in performance- and I understand now that I found out that most of the software isn't really optimized for this processor. 

DP runs native under M1 but it has CPU spikes with very little tracks. LPX reports about the same CPU meters as my intel i7 dual core Macbook running BBCSO. I'm returning the Mini (this was a factory refurb so who knows if that had something to do with it) because I cannot justify the expense with little to no gains. it does run cooler and quieter however... well than my i7. My Mac Pro 6,1 still is the quietest computer I have ever owned. And I push that son-o-bitch too.


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## Jon W (Jul 19, 2021)

thesteelydane said:


> Wait, so this whole time asking me for reports you actually had an M1 and could have just turned it on and done your own tests? Wtf? I was trying to help you. Please tell us how many instances you can load, what the pre-load buffer size is, and how many voices you can play back simultaneously before it craps out. You'd do us all a huge favour.
> 
> I'm keenly interested in this because I'm super excited about the power of the M1, just disappointed in the memory specs offered so far. If you can load 32GB worth of samples into RAM and have no issues I will send you a case of beer! Or whatever you fancy, because that would make me very, very happy.
> 
> I do run a 500+ tracks template, and I don't think that's going to work on 16GB of RAM no matter how magical it is. And from what I've seen on this forum as soon as you pass the physical limit of 16GB it starts writing things to a swap file, which causes freezing and crackling. You can test this. I can't. So I hope you will and tell us what you find.


I didn't ask for help. This not a technical issue. You implied there are reports that the M1 could not be used for pro work. I wanted to read those reports or watch those YT vids, for the same reasons you did; to see if the M1 _could_ be used for pro work.

I use the box for editing, graphics, and music work. It flys, and never gets warm or makes any fan noise (Macmini). I don't posess the skillset to test, as I would not be sure what would be a valid test for pro work.

I saw the Soundbed video months ago. I think he loaded 64 random Kontakt instruments and played them all without a hicup, without hitting above 13.5Gb. I don't know if that's a valid test to determine if a pro could use it for work though.

I doubt you can jam 32Gb of samples into 16Gb, even with Apple's fancy footwork of making 16Gb seem like more. As far as 500 tracks, wouldn't that depend what those tracks are and whether or not they all actively playing something all the time?

Hop on the Øresundsbroen to Malmö and check out an M1 there.


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## Jon W (Jul 19, 2021)

Technostica said:


> They are seemingly using LPDDR4X-4266 chips which are industry standard.
> The chips are attached to the same packaging as the actual SoC, so not part of the SoC.


You're right. Thanks for the correction.


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## Soundbed (Jul 20, 2021)

JackTrez said:


> So could the claims of M1 being more efficient with ram be true? From your video M1 was trying to use 70+ GB vs 249gb on intel?


No, seemed more like a freak memory leak while Studio One was trying to close the session and shut down.


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## Soundbed (Jul 20, 2021)

Jon W said:


> I doubt you can jam 32Gb of samples into 16Gb, even with Apple's fancy footwork


Ok cool, thanks for clarifying.


Jon W said:


> I have an M1, for 6 months now. It handles anything I throw at it. Am I Hans Zimmer running templates with hundreds of tracks for commercial film production? No.


What DO you throw at it, for music production?


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## thesteelydane (Jul 20, 2021)

Jon W said:


> I think he loaded 64 random Kontakt instruments and played them all without a hicup, without hitting above 13.5Gb.


Yeah but my now dead 2014 i7 MacBook Pro with 16GB RAM could do that too - that's not particularly impressive. What is clear from the videos posted in this thread by Soundbed is that the M1 is an incredibly powerful processor but that ram is still ram. As soon as it starts writing to a swap file you start to run into stability issues, and that's just not good enough for professional use. We need Apple to up the ram limit.


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## thesteelydane (Jul 20, 2021)

Jon W said:


> Hop on the Øresundsbroen to Malmö and check out an M1 there.


That's gonna be difficult, I live in Hanoi...


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## Jon W (Jul 20, 2021)

thesteelydane said:


> That's gonna be difficult, I live in Hanoi...


Last I saw you were in a bunker in Copenhagen


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## Jon W (Jul 20, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Ok cool, thanks for clarifying.
> 
> What DO you throw at it, for music production?


Around two dozen Kontakt instruments, mostly Spitfire Albions. Another half dozen audio tracks. In Logic ProX.


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## thesteelydane (Jul 20, 2021)

Jon W said:


> Last I saw you were in a bunker in Copenhagen


I've lived in Hanoi since 2013. I just used to spend my summers recording material in Copenhagen. Not happening now for obvious reasons.


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## Soundbed (Jul 20, 2021)

Now that we've got all that cleared up... more from the rumour mill:

"The chips also include up to 64 gigabytes of memory versus a maximum of 16 on the M1."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ook-pro-macbook-air-revamps-with-faster-chips (added PDF for convenience)

Which got reprinted / republished in several places:









Bloomberg: Redesigned MacBook Pro coming as soon as this summer, up to 64GB RAM and 10-core chip


A new report from Bloomberg today says that Apple’s redesigned MacBook Pro series with Apple Silicon could launch as soon as this summer. The new MacBook Pros are said to feature eight high-performance cores and two high-efficiency cores, available in either 16 or 32 graphics core variations. In...




9to5mac.com





https://hunchmag.com/redesigned-14-and-16-inch-macbook-pro-64gb-ram-and-apple-m1x-soc-coming-september-november/


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## Markrs (Jul 20, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> "The chips also include up to 64 gigabytes of memory versus a maximum of 16 on the M1."


64gb is the magic number, I think that is enough to run decent sized templates and tracks. I hate to think what the price will be. I am thinking around $3000+ With 2Tb storage, and top quality mini LED screen.


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## thesteelydane (Jul 20, 2021)

Markrs said:


> 64gb is the magic number, I think that is enough to run decent sized templates and tracks. I hate to think what the price will be. I am thinking around $3000+ With 2Tb storage, and top quality mini LED screen.


I really, really hope the new rumours are true. And yeah maxing it out will be at least 3000 USD I think. At this point I don't care, I just want a laptop again and I want it to kick ass.


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## rnb_2 (Jul 20, 2021)

I also hope that the rumored M1X Mac mini arrives in a similar timeframe - there aren't as many rumors about it (as there aren't screen suppliers to leak details), but something is due to replace the high end minis, and that would fit the bill nicely. At that point, my M1 mini can replace the i3 mini that is currently my media/backup server, and we'll see a dramatic drop in the temperature inside my TV cabinet.


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## Soundbed (Jul 20, 2021)

Markrs said:


> 64gb is the magic number, I think that is enough to run decent sized templates and tracks. I hate to think what the price will be. I am thinking around $3000+ With 2Tb storage, and top quality mini LED screen.


iirc - My 2018 Intel with 1TB and 32GB was over $3500 on sale, after release. So for 2TB and 64GB I won’t be surprised if it’s even more than that brand new!


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