# Women Only - Does the "Gearslutz" name bother you?



## Mike Greene (Jan 15, 2021)

I was talking with my wife last night about the petition to change the name of the Gearslutz website, and I found myself starting to say, _"My guess is that most of the women on VI-Control would say ... "_, but then I realized I don't really _know_ what they would say. So before we get a zillion opinions from us dudes (I certainly have mine ... and schizophrenically, they're in both directions,) I think it would be useful to hear from the women here first.

Ideally these opinions would be uninfluenced by other people's opinions, so "No Dudes Allowed!" and please no other threads on this topic until this one has had a few days. I know that's a little controlling of me, but this is a topic where some people's opinions are indeed more important than others, and since VI-C is such a similar forum to Gearslutz, we have a unique opportunity to get meaningful opinions.

So the question at hand is whether the Gearslutz name bothers you, and if so, does it bother you enough that you think they should change it. Don't feel restricted to that, though, so if there are other things you've been itching to say along these same lines (what it's like to be a woman in this forum/business/hobby or whatever), please feel free. Thanks!


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## CT (Jan 15, 2021)

Ok, speaking as proxy for The Woman:

"Hmm. Yeah, it's questionable. I have referred to myself as a 'graphics whore.' It's one thing if a woman chooses to use those kinds of terms, but to name a group that way is another. Different people will react differently, but slut is one of those terms most women don't like (right up there with certain others), and it'll be alienating for some to see in a title."


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## Daniel James (Jan 15, 2021)

My wife says 'not even a little bit as its clearly not aimed to demean anyone. Context matters.'


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## chillbot (Jan 15, 2021)

It's odd that no vi-control women have chimed in yet, we have so dang many of them.

I asked my mother who is one of the pioneers and experts on bias-free and nonsexist language in this country. She literally wrote the https://www.amazon.com/Unspinning-Spin-Womens-Accurate-Language-ebook/dp/B00SIEBZIG (book) (https://www.amazon.com/s?k=rosalie+maggio&i=stripbooks&ref=nb_sb_noss_2 (many) of them) on the subject. She responded:

"Actually, I wouldn't object at all to that. If it were some totally woman-associated thing, well, possibly. I don't think there's anything wrong with it as is. Just my opinion."


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## pmcrockett (Jan 15, 2021)

Up front disclaimer: I am not and have never been a Gearslutz member.

In discussing whether the term _slut _is offensive in this context, I think it good to keep in mind what the nature of the group using the term is. If, for example, a group of women who were into audio gear got together and named their group Gearslutz, I don't see any issues with that (though it would still come across as somewhat unprofessional) because it's effectively the reclaiming of a derogatory term that is used almost exclusively against women.

I don't know the history of the actual site -- so maybe it was founded by women? -- but I expect that the name, like so many other internet things, is a result of people trying to be edgy rather than someone reclaiming a derogatory word used against their social group. The Z, too, suggests edginess.

Circling back to the professionalism angle, I expect that _will the industry take us seriously with this name?_ was not on the minds of the Gearslutz founders when they created it. Projects like this tend to grow beyond their original scope and sometimes have strange baggage as a result. I'm reminded of Cards Against Humanity, which is a game about being as offensive as possible, created by students just trying to make a fun (and edgy) game. The company -- because it has grown into a company -- now takes a generally pro-social justice stance and has actively purged problematic cards from the game deck. Which seems at odds with the game's original premise, but there you go: its nature changed as it grew.

Another example -- Overclocked ReMix is a video game music fan site. Back in the day, there used to be an almost completely unmoderated section of the forum which functioned exactly as you would expect an unmoderated section of a forum to function. The site admins eventually decided it was a liability and deleted the unmoderated forum, which caused a huge uproar in the community. But if you look at the site now: it's professional enough to have put together commercial soundtrack releases by working with actual video game publishers, and it's almost inconceivable that it would have an unmoderated forum in its current form. The site's mission evolved, and that involved sanding off the rough edges.

So maybe Gearslutz has reached a point where future growth and standing in the industry would be helped by losing the edgy name. I don't know. But it's pretty clear that changing the name would piss off a large number of users. These sorts of changes always do, and so they shouldn't be made lightly. But it also potentially makes the community a bit more welcoming to women and to people who generally find the name juvenile and embarrassing.

Me personally? I would be more likely to involve myself in the community if they changed the name. It's not that I find the use of _slutz_ offensive, but rather that the use of a presumably edgy _slutz_ here signals to me that they take a particular approach to community-building that prioritizes people's right to be edgy, which usually means that harassment of women and minorities is moderated laxly if at all. Whether that's actually true of the site, I have no idea -- I'm not a member and only go there sporadically. But that's what the name suggests to me, and I don't have any interest in being a part of that kind of community. So I think it's a marketing liability if nothing else.

Context matters quite a lot. To tie this back into the what-if of a specifically women-centric site using the name: That wouldn't be a barrier to my involvement because in that context, the name would not communicate lax moderation -- it would communicate a (probably) socially progressive/feminist community with (probably) strong moderation of harassment. Exactly the opposite of what it communicates in its actual context.

Open discussion of this, of course, will provoke the usual whinging and bleating about how it's just a name and women shouldn't care about it from people who themselves seem to care very deeply about it. And of course the crying about how an organization choosing to change its name as a marketing strategy is basically censorship. Like, we get it, you like things better when you don't have to think about anyone but yourself.

And that's the kind of stuff that makes me want to keep a low profile with regard to gender online. It's just easier not to deal with the baggage of being visibly a woman. But that means I tend not to discuss my gender in conversations even where it's actually relevant, which in turn contributes to the general perception that men are the default gender in online spaces, which in turn informs social attitudes. And that's one of the ways we end up with threads full of men discussing whether women should be okay with the way things are. Which makes me not want to talk about being a woman. It's the social equivalent of a feedback loop.


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## Mike Greene (Jan 15, 2021)

Thank you, PM! Great post. Also thank you to Mike, Daniel and Matt for relaying opinions without adding a male commentary. (Knowing these guys, we know _that_ wasn't easy! )

To the guys who keep trying to post various opinions (I've deleted a dozen so far, as well as two new Gearslutz threads people tried to create), I understand that everyone has opinions on this topic. Including me! But right now, I think it's important to limit this to only women's opinions. Otherwise this turns into a 30 page debate and we have to dig to find the opinions that matter most.

I've already seen debates on Facebook on this topic and learned nothing from them. Other than depending on whose page it is, it's either _"Oh my God, all women hate the Gearslutz name!!!" or " Oh wait ...Oh my God, all women think this is silly!!!"_

So I don't want to lose this golden opportunity to hear directly from women (without distraction of loudmouth boys ... like me) on a topic like this, rather than _assuming_ we know what they think. (Which is what I see on Facebook.)

Granted, it makes for a short thread, but I'm hoping the lack of clutter makes things more welcoming, where every post doesn't turn into a debate. This is a listen thread, not a debate thread. There is literally no "wrong" opinion here. If you (as a woman) feel one way or another, we'd love to hear it.


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## A.Dern (Jan 15, 2021)

It's difficult to say in this context.

The word "slut" comes with a lot of gendered baggage and a lot of young girls - myself included - had that word thrown at them as early as their pre-teen years (often by grown men even). There's an aggression that comes with the word and a shame that is only thrown at women for having more than one sexual partner (something men are usually applauded for). There's something very oppressive about the term and I understand every woman who takes issue with this.

Personally, I chuckled at the name when I first heard it years back. I think it's because the forum was created by a dude and is obviously filled with mainly other dudes. To have them take an insult that is normally geared at women and refer to themselves to me takes the power out of the word - which I find quite endearing and inclusive at times. If this were geared at women only, I'd find it massively problematic.

HOWEVER, I am just one woman so my opinion is a small sample size that is rooted in my own character, humor, and experiences. This does not take away the validity of other women possibly feeling differently about this. If enough women take issue with this, then I do believe it needs to be addressed.


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## elliebean (Jan 15, 2021)

As a beginner, it attracts the wrong crowd and it was a factor in my making an account and spending my time lurking here instead of there.


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## AudioLoco (Jan 16, 2021)

NothingToHide said:


> Why should only women answer to this thread? That would mean only women should have a say in what language is acceptable in what context and what not. Of course I get that it is an insult thrown at women in its original form and unquestionable dismissive usage! But changing the rules of how language is allowed to be used is clearly a general question to be discussed by all human beings regardless of sex.


1) because that's what the OP asked for
2) beacuse, when there is possible discrimination involved, you want to hear first from the people on the receiving end possibly, as they have an actual experience of the abuse/intolerance and their input is the most useful to the rest of the people, and helps having a better understanding of reality.


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## dzilizzi (Jan 16, 2021)

So I'm on the older side and not easily offended. Gearslutz was the first forum I joined when getting back into music back in 2006 and I found them to be very helpful and friendly. They mostly gave good advice when buying new gear. Sometimes discussions would get a little heated and there would be a bunch of deleted posts, similar to here. I thought the name was funny and made sense as some of those guys would practically sell their souls for the right piece of equipment. I still check it out once in a while, but they aren't as in to non-synth VI's as I am. 

A few years ago, I recommended the site to a young guy in a class I was taking who wanted to build a music PC. He later referred to it as the "site with the unfortunate name". So I can see that as the audience gets younger and less into collecting actual gear, the site might want to change its name if they want to attract the younger users. And, being on the worldwide internet, this can be an issue for other cultures who might not think it's funny. 

So, I personally don't have a problem with the name, but I can see why the might think about changing it to attract new members.


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## Willowtree (Jan 16, 2021)

No, but also yes. To me, the "slutz" in the name doesn't really read to me as the derogatory term "slut", although maybe that's simply from familiarity with gearslutz. I do remember that when I first visited their forum, I found the name somewhat obnoxious, though not exactly offensive or something that bothered me.

That's the no part. For the yes part ... It's kind of unnecessary. The name. Imagine if VI Control had the slogan "Virtual innstruments are like women, can't live with them, can't live without them!" In some contexts, that phrase might be interpreted as a harmless joke. But as the slogan of a website? It would've definitely read to me as unnecessary and kind of petty.

In some ways, that's a bit like gearslutz to me reads as. There is _some level_ of potential gating there, if you will. At the same time, the problem (to me) doesn't lie with the name itself, but rather the context where the name is used: on a public forum that's accessible to everybody. At this point, it is what it is. Changing it will arguably lead to peculiar accusations of censorship or some grand conspiracy of "feminists taking over the world!"

In the grand scheme of things, it's a factor in why I don't frequent gearslutz, but one of the minor ones, all things considered.


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## Willowtree (Jan 16, 2021)

Don Quijote said:


> I could't care less, actually! I wish there would be as much involvement and talk about subjects that really matter! There is so much inequality and abuse on this planet -- surely women being discrimnated against is one example! However, it doesn't help when people get accused for the use of words, although their intention is clearly not discrimnation. That is just a diversion from real problems!


It definitely would surprise me if the name gearslutz was chosen with malicious intentions, though now I can't help but imagine some kid going "_this'll keep the girlz away from my website_" in a rather misguided attempt at escaping the cooties.


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## Mike Greene (Jan 16, 2021)

Thank you Anne-Kathrin, Ellie, Lizzie and Willowtree for your input! It's helpful, and I know I'm not alone in being very interested in your perspectives.

Now, on another front, I’m having a hard time getting certain male members to respect my wish that they not post here. Over 60 post deletions so far, which is beyond annoying.

The reason for the Women-Only rule here is that without that rule, their voices get drowned out in the sheer mass of posts from men. Even now (where only the _disrespectful_ guys are posting), if I let those 60+ deleted posts stand, then that means Lizzie and Willowtree’s posts are buried on page 4 of this thread. (Somewhere between one of Kyles long-winded essays and a "joke" from some new guy I've never heard of.)

Can we not all agree that the ladies here should be on page 1? So please, women only for this one. Thank you.


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## Garlu (Jan 19, 2021)

Hi everyone,

I have to confess I got a bit annoyed by the mentioned forum name, the first time I ear about it (15 years ago).
That said, I got used to it (my main mother tongue is spanish) and understood it was a way to refer to someone addicted/a geek to gear and audio.
So, I tried not to give more importance to it.

After that, I taught for more than 5 years at Masters level, in a well-know College... (Ber... k... lee...).
They are ALWAYS, very cautious on how we mentioned things in class (I remember a student complaining about me saying "PC slave" for a VEP machine, as a "secondary" one. I started changing that way of referring to it...). 
For all that time, I never got a negative comment on that forum's name (and I thought I would for mentioning it...) So, I guess, generations have also changed, and are more "used" to that vocabulary, if expressed in a non pejorative manner). 

All of this to say: Context matters, and if it's mentioned in a "audio/gear" geek context, it's totally ok with me. But, not using the word by itself to refer to women on that world. 

Thanks for letting us express ourselves!


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## clarasorace (Jan 19, 2021)

There is a lot of discrimination out there. For many women, but not only. I believe that you have to feel offended when there is a desire to hurt. It's also full of "hypocrisy" out there. Today you can no longer even joke about some topic, while then real discrimination happens without anyone doing anything. In my opinion, it is simply necessary to balance things and understand the context and take action when there is real discrimination.


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## Valérie_D (Jan 19, 2021)

I'm a very nuanced person by nature and I tend to share a bit of what Anne-Kathrin, Ellie, Lizzie and Willowtree said altogether. I'm almost 39 years old so looking back, I always felt compelled to laugh at terms like ''brand-whore'' or ''car-sluts'', to be part of the group, not being easily offended, etc. 

Although, it's clear to me that these terms are not necessarily used to be demeaning in certain contexts like the gearslutz forum. It's mostly tasteless and obnoxious humor. Also, not to be patronizing or anything but it's an acquired culture, to laugh at demeaning terms and you learn it young. 

I'll quote Benedict Cumberbatch when he mentionned that he did not like his ladies fans to call themselves ''Cumber-bitches'', he said ''be careful with how you refer to yourselves, I prefer ''Cumber-people'' or something similar.


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## A.Dern (Jan 19, 2021)

I definitely think women like us might be very desensitized to this sort of thing because we've been operating in a man's domain and therefore are always required to laugh it off. Add to that the general sentiment that women aren't allowed to "be difficult" in the workplace or "too emotional", and that we (me personally as well) are often advised to "act like the dudes", then you already have created a culture where we can't really talk about these things. Especially not if you're the only woman in the room - which is always. That's why a space like this is so important - otherwise the few women always have to talk against a wall of men stating their often uninformed opinions about things that don't affect them in the slightest. It's exhausting to be frank.

Something that is also giving me pause at this point is what Meg Lee Chin posted:
"I'm the woman who built and created Gearslutz with Julian Standen in 2000. (He chose the name of course) After 7 years of busting my arse 80 hours a week, Standen decided to pretend I was not a partner but just an employee (who worked with no salary for the first two years? Yeah, right!) One day I woke up and was locked out of all accounts. Effectively I was locked out of the partnership. I guess he figured that as a man, his contribution was infinitely more valuable. No doubt he saw himself as a swashbuckling, globetrotting CEO - even though it was me who actually conceived, built and ran the site. We went to court. I won. But I got screwed with lawyer fees. The man puts on a respectable facade, but underneath is an entitled brat who stole my retirement pension."

Since we've been saying "context matters" (myself included), maybe this context should matter as well. In any case, it seems the petition was successful and they are changing their name.


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## Willowtree (Jan 19, 2021)

A.Dern said:


> I definitely think women like us might be very desensitized to this sort of thing because we've been operating in a man's domain and therefore are always required to laugh it off. Add to that the general sentiment that women aren't allowed to "be difficult" in the workplace or "too emotional", and that we (me personally as well) are often advised to "act like the dudes", then you already have created a culture where we can't really talk about these things. Especially not if you're the only woman in the room - which is always. That's why a space like this is so important - otherwise the few women always have to talk against a wall of men stating their often uninformed opinions about things that don't affect them in the slightest. It's exhausting to be frank.
> 
> Something that is also giving me pause at this point is what Meg Lee Chin posted:
> "I'm the woman who built and created Gearslutz with Julian Standen in 2000. (He chose the name of course) After 7 years of busting my arse 80 hours a week, Standen decided to pretend I was not a partner but just an employee (who worked with no salary for the first two years? Yeah, right!) One day I woke up and was locked out of all accounts. Effectively I was locked out of the partnership. I guess he figured that as a man, his contribution was infinitely more valuable. No doubt he saw himself as a swashbuckling, globetrotting CEO - even though it was me who actually conceived, built and ran the site. We went to court. I won. But I got screwed with lawyer fees. The man puts on a respectable facade, but underneath is an entitled brat who stole my retirement pension."
> ...


It's rather unfortunate that wherever you go, whenever there's a space for women, if men find a way to enter ... they will.

I can't help but think of this quote from the animated show Bojack Horseman:


> There has been another mass shooting. I am totally unqualified to cover a news story this important, but as a straight white male, I will plow forward with confidence and assume I’m doing fine!


I increasingly wish there was a forum or community for amateur and professional women composers, to create a kind of safe space where women experiences in this industry could readily be shared, and contacts and connections could be formed.


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## A.Dern (Jan 19, 2021)

Willowtree said:


> It's rather unfortunate that wherever you go, whenever there's a space for women, if men find a way to enter ... they will.
> 
> I can't help but think of this quote from the animated show Bojack Horseman:
> 
> I increasingly wish there was a forum or community for amateur and professional women composers, to create a kind of safe space where women experiences in this industry could readily be shared, and contacts and connections could be formed.


There is actually - if you're on facebook I can point you to it. We created that space for this very reason and we currently have about 380 members. It's a space where we discuss anything business related but also experiences with harassment, sexism, illegal work practices, who to not be alone in a room with, all the way to motherhood, health, etc.


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## Willowtree (Jan 19, 2021)

A.Dern said:


> There is actually - if you're on facebook I can point you to it. We created that space for this very reason and we currently have about 380 members. It's a space where we discuss anything business related but also experiences with harassment, sexism, illegal work practices, who to not be alone in a room with, all the way to motherhood, health, etc.


I was about to say "can't believe I haven't heard of this" ... but then again, I am terrible at using Facebook for anything but that darn messenger app.

Would love for you do DM me this, would love to join.


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## elliebean (Jan 19, 2021)

A.Dern said:


> There is actually - if you're on facebook I can point you to it. We created that space for this very reason and we currently have about 380 members. It's a space where we discuss anything business related but also experiences with harassment, sexism, illegal work practices, who to not be alone in a room with, all the way to motherhood, health, etc.


It's a shame it's on Facebook.


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## Valérie_D (Jan 20, 2021)

Willowtree said:


> It's rather unfortunate that wherever you go, whenever there's a space for women, if men find a way to enter ... they will.


*@ Willowtree, when I read your comment, I suddenlly felt very fortunate that in 11 years of doing music, I only worked with truly the kindest of gentlemen, no matter their age. Having a ''safe'' space never crossed my mind, it was just about the music. The laughing it off part was more in discussions on the internet or with people in general, off internet and yes, I think demeaning terms are often used just to be edgy or fun, although this is not my cup of tea.


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## Willowtree (Jan 20, 2021)

Valérie_D said:


> *@ Willowtree, when I read your comment, I suddenlly felt very fortunate that in 11 years of doing music, I only worked with truly the kindest of gentlemen, no matter their age. Having a ''safe'' space never crossed my mind, it was just about the music. The laughing it off part was more in discussions on the internet or with people in general, off internet and yes, I think demeaning terms are often used just to be edgy or fun, although this is not my cup of tea.


I'm glad you've had much more positive experiences than me, then. 

It's important all perspectives are heard of course, and that we all strive for a more inclusive and kind world.

_edit: though I might add, I've also had many good experiences working with men, and I don't mean to generalise all men here by any means!_


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## LauraC (Apr 30, 2021)

Just found this thread, and though it is now after the fact, it is a great conversation. Having worked in male dominated industries most of my life (and being originally from Brooklyn), it takes a lot to offend me. That said, certain terminology doesn't age well, and this is one of them. Times change, zeitgeists change, sensibilities shift, and if we don't, we become anachronistic. When I was in my 20s, it was no big deal and proof that you were "low maintenance." You grow, achieve a level of maturity and certain things just don't fly the way they used to.

But wow - people can really get attached to words! I got into a big kerfuffle on another forum for praising a DAW that changed it's lexicon from master/slave to lead/follow. Words count. Change is good. There is absolutely no down side to this re-branding.


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## Valérie_D (May 1, 2021)

A.Dern said:


> I definitely think women like us might be very desensitized to this sort of thing because we've been operating in a man's domain and therefore are always required to laugh it off. Add to that the general sentiment that women aren't allowed to "be difficult" in the workplace or "too emotional", and that we (me personally as well) are often advised to "act like the dudes", then you already have created a culture where we can't really talk about these things. Especially not if you're the only woman in the room - which is always. That's why a space like this is so important - otherwise the few women always have to talk against a wall of men stating their often uninformed opinions about things that don't affect them in the slightest. It's exhausting to be frank.


Your message makes me think of that short film : Purl.


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## LauraC (May 1, 2021)

Valérie_D said:


> Your message makes me think of that short film : Purl.



Coming from a compulsive knitter, I loved it!


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