# Fee to compose indie film score?



## Rob Elliott (Feb 12, 2008)

Hi there,


Just wanted to take a temperature on what everyone is negoiating for - given these parameters:


1. Indie film (Budget 3-5 mill)
2. approx 50-60 mins music
3. samples score with 'some' live musicians (strings - small double quartet)
4. Perhaps a soloist (WW, guitar, etc.)
5. Female voice (Lisa Gerrard type sound)


Since it is a relatively small budget I am thinking the producers will be looking for a 'package deal'.

For these types of projects should I expect and fight for 1.5-2.5% of budget?


Thanks for any feedback/comments you can give.


Rob


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## DCWAVE (Feb 12, 2008)

I wish the indie films I have worked on had that kind of budget!!! I just cracked the 1/2 million dollar mark and had a hard time convincing them to pay 1.5% for 40 minutes of music but eventually got it.


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## Brian Ralston (Feb 12, 2008)

This does not really answer your question directly, but to be honest, you will be able to negotiate what they feel you and your music are worth to the film and not much more. 

I have seen 3-5 million dollar indie films that can give the composer in the low 6 figures (rarely) and I have seen production companies go out and get a score for around $5000 with someone who just wanted the credit. I have also seen a friend being offered next to nothing on a film...doing it for the connection it would be...then get canned...then they find out months later someone else was hired with a significant increase in budget and miraculously that production company also had money for a live union orchestra whereas before there was nothing. 

So...it will really come down to you and the precedent you have set in your career for what your "fee" is. The best way to begin to negotiate is to start with what you made on your last project that was similar in music demands if there is one. Then adjust proportionally for what the film's budget is. 

If you have never scored a film with a budget that size and you have also never been paid 2.5% of a $5Million dollar film before...then you are probably not going to get that this time either. You kind of have to work up to it and be in a position where the people hiring you absolutely have to have you and only you. And you will only get there with a lot of time invested in those business relationships. Usually years.

So...I would look at the film if you can...decided if it is something you absolutely have to be a part of and then make a decision of what it is worth to you to score it. Would you take a hit on your fee because you see potential in this director and feel this is the next indie hit? Or...are you just doing it for the money and have no vested interest in it? Etc...Taking on a film below your "normal" fee can be justified if there are certain other reasons which make that opportunity valuable to you. Never do anything for free though. 

Set in your mind a fee where you will walk away. And don't be afraid to walk away when they try to offer you below that fee without further negotiation. Not being afraid to walk away gives you ALL the power in the negotiation. That is the place you want to be.


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## midphase (Feb 12, 2008)

If you can get 2% of the total budget....consider yourself lucky!


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## kid-surf (Feb 12, 2008)

My guess is (if you don't have an established relationship and/or quote/fee) they will offer you 25-50 grand and say "take it or leave it." 

I was offered as little as $2,000 last year for a 1 Mil feature. Can you believe that? I've made more than that on a shorts (more than that on a 10 second bumper). Anyway, I just looked up the 1 Mil film on IMDB. They got distro and I see they went with the same composer for their next film, but... who friggn cares? What's his fee now? 10 grand? 15 grand? At what, 2-3 films a year? 

...And that's supposed to be some favor, a fancy "feature" credit that's worth nothing in Hollywood and you made chump-change to score their film. Yes, too bad more composers aren't willing to walk from those crap deals. The credit is only worth something if the film hits "critically" and/or gets great distro... Otherwise you're establishing a relationship with a director who's probably going nowhere (hey, not every director is going to 'make it'. Not every director is talented) and he/she will continue to low-ball you. Even though, now, they like you.


But don't forget that the director isn't necessarily making a lotta scratch either. Especially if he/she is a first time director and most especially if there are names. The bigger the names the more "they" make the director gamble their own fee/quote. But if I'm a composer (which I'm not anymore) I would only gamble on the low-ball deal if there were "real names" in it. Like 'hot' actors currently in studio films lowering their own fee because the script is so great (and/or a hot director -- in your case), not simply names we may recognize from TV or some forgotten film. And what is the script doing around town on it's own? This is another indicator of whether or not it's worth risking some of your quote. If the script has buzz around town (even as an indie) you've got a better sense of what the "film" may be capable of achieving. If the script has gotten NO buzz then the film is probably not going to mean anything to Hollywood said and done. May also not mean anything to distro... 


For example: This is my own gamble. My script is going out to names currently, should any names (or several) attach, "they" will try to push me out as director. At which point I can fight for it by taking a low-ball directors fee, scale on the script and doing the music for FREE. That's probably the best offer I'd get if there were decent names. Why would I gamble that..? I would gamble it only if the script receives buzz around town. Otherwise it's not worth the risk. It's like, if people around town flip over the script that is my barometer as to what they'll think of the completed film. (In other words, if enough people love the script I know they'll love the film.). At which point it's not critical it make a ton of money. It's only critical that it's a great film. Because that, to Hollywood, is a success regardless of what it makes through distro etc. That sort of success leads to a directing gig on a studio film. That's my own gamble...

The safety-net being that I wrote it... I can write plenty more. But I only get one shot at directing.


My point is that there are plenty of indicators that will tell you whether or not it's worth gambling a low-ball offer. If it doesn't meet that criteria, I say, go for what you're worth and walk if they low-ball you below your fixed "walk number". Be sure to read the script... do you know what's good in script form? Also, watch the film and be honest with yourself. Many times we pretend we like it just to have a job. If you don't readily have available the Hollywood info that would tell you what the town's temperature is on that script, use good old gut instinct... then place your bet. 


That's my "any feedback/comments you can give". Thought I'd offer a different perspective rather than numbers.


Good luck, Rob!

KID


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## Rob Elliott (Feb 12, 2008)

Thanks guys for the replies - I am thinking the same here ( I am walking unless it is 'at least' 1.5-2%) Fortunately now i have a good back log of work to do (of course this can and will likely change :( in the future, but for now - it boils down to the incredible time it takes to score a 90 min feature - I want the carrot to be worth it - beyond the rep and credit I 'may' get.

The production team is 'top drawer' so that part of it is solid.


Thanks again for your comments - really appreciate it.


Rob


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## Peter Alexander (Feb 13, 2008)

I have a slightly different take. Budgets I've seen will plan music at 3.5% of gross. That's the whole budget. 

After that, it's negotiation, as has been said here.

And to reinforce what's been said, a film slated for theatrical release ran an ad on Craig's List looking for a composer. 

For 30 minutes of music - $3500. Their terms - take it or leave it.


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## Rob Elliott (Feb 13, 2008)

Peter Alexander @ Wed Feb 13 said:


> I have a slightly different take. Budgets I've seen will plan music at 3.5% of gross. That's the whole budget.
> 
> After that, it's negotiation, as has been said here.
> 
> ...




Wow Peter - at my production rate that is about $20-25 hour. I think I'd rather run a forklift. Less hassles and medical benefits are covered :D 


Rob


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## José Herring (Feb 13, 2008)

After 2 years of selling myself short I can firmly recommend to don't sell yourself short. It either has to be a project that's Oscar worthy or it has to pay well. If it doesn't meet those criteria then leave it alone.

Jose


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## Rob Elliott (Feb 14, 2008)

Probably a good idea on the rep/agent David. Done tons of shorts and corporate video projects but this will be only my second indie feature (the other is in the can but not scheduled for theatrical release until AFTER the summer popcorn flicks.

Anyone have a good recommendation for representation? A straight shooting person, fair (is this asking too much). I really am not trying to be sarcastic - really never worked with an agent before - but you hear the stories.... :cry: 


Many thanks in advance.

Rob


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## midphase (Feb 14, 2008)

"I think I'd rather run a forklift. Less hassles and medical benefits are covered."

You might want to rethink your reasoning...especially after watching this video:

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=9ouoPYVelZA


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## midphase (Feb 14, 2008)

"get someone else to rep you. "

and 

"Anyone have a good recommendation for representation? A straight shooting person, fair (is this asking too much). I really am not trying to be sarcastic - really never worked with an agent before - but you hear the stories...."

Ok...seriously....99.9999% of the good agents out there will not even bother answering your phone call, much less take you on unless you're attached to a high end project or TV series. The ones who do, primarily do it for an easy 10% and they work on a job by job basis, and will have as much of a probability of pissing off your client and losing you the job than getting you a better deal.

On sub $5mil films, I think the composer is perfectly well suited to represent himself. Hire yourself a decent lawyer to look over the contract and that will be money better spent.


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## nikolas (Feb 14, 2008)

Peter...

30 minutes of music in a totally indie copmuter game, with tiny budget (a person made this, so the budget could be around $20,000 tops), and I got $3000. (In effect we are talking about someone who decided to sell his game and wanted quality (!) music, so he decided to pay for services, same for graphics, a graphic artist and a few voice actors, etc, so the budget is ULTRA LOW)! For 3-5,000,000 $ I would expect something a bit higher than that...

tiny EDIT: I'm in computer games, which could be different, but still I would never expect such a big difference...


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## midphase (Feb 14, 2008)

Games are a totally different ballgame. It's quite common for a game composer to get $800/minute of music. Indie films are in a whole different realm.


The truth of the matter is that a lot of composers around here would cut off their left nut and totally underbid you for a chance to work on a $3mil film if they had any clue how to get a hold of your contact for the film.


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## kid-surf (Feb 14, 2008)

Rob Elliott @ Thu Feb 14 said:


> Anyone have a good recommendation for representation? A straight shooting person, fair (is this asking too much). I really am not trying to be sarcastic - really never worked with an agent before - but you hear the stories.... :cry:
> 
> 
> Many thanks in advance.
> ...



I can only speak from my perspective:

Most agents I know are good people whose main concern is that their client get the best deal possible and are growing in the direction the 'client' wishes to grow. From my perspective, most of the horror agent stories are the lower level agencies who may be a little sketchy.

I had the opportunity, as a composer, to be hip-pocketed (which means representation w/o agency papers because you aren't a fancy client but they'll take a risk on you) by a boutique agency with a few big name composers. Thing is, they flat out told me "you still gotta find most of your work... maybe even all of it... but we'll make the deal... and maybe we can get you a gig on something one of the other composers passes on because it's too small for them".

Generally they'll find you if you're ready to be represented, which means either you've done a buzzy indie film that's blowing up at Sundance etc. Or you've done a studio film that is sexy in some way. Interestingly a studio film is not a guarantee for signing. 

So maybe Kay's advice in another thread is the best if you don't have either of those. You may just be offered the same sort of worthless representation I was. Kays advice was essentially that (pardon me for putting words in your mouth Kays) a manager is better person to have on your side. Unless the composer really has some high profile momentum I probably agree.


But I don't know of any management companies that specifically rep composers (Not that I've specifically looked). I mean, there are companies like Management 360 and so forth, but do they rep composers and do they take submissions? I would guess not, but who knows? Maybe compile a list and go from there... Perhaps if you've got a lawyer they can submit to these various managers. (But any of the top management firms are just a step below the difficulty in signing with the top agencies -- all of it is VERY hard)


Hope that gives you some food for thought...


KID


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## kid-surf (Feb 14, 2008)

Oh... Kays replied while I was typing.... 8)


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## José Herring (Feb 14, 2008)

Personally I think the last thing a composer needs to worry about is getting an Agent. I was "hip pocketed" too by a big agency and got the same advice that kid got.

Frankly unless you're really, really huge then the agent may work for you. Who isn't going to hire, Hans Zimmer, John Williams, James Horner or the like. But I know plenty of composers who are just underneath this level that are still working the phones along with an agent.

I've finally gotten an agent who is willing to work with me. Not for me but with me and that's a big distinction. If you do want to go the agent route then call a few of the boutique people and just get to know them. Then when they're familiar with you ask them if you could bring deals to them if they're ready to talk money.

But get them to the point where they're ready to hire you. Then get somebody you trust to bring in the money.

Personally at the indie stage I wouldn't worry too much about it. Just make sure the film is good.

Just as an example I've been finessing a film for a long time. I finally got the producer to hire me and ask how much I charge. I said I wasn't comfortable talking money as I'm more creative in nature. Then I called my agent and had him talk money. But I didn't even call the agent until the guy was ready to hire me. Anytime before that would be too soon.

So my long winded advice is this:
1) get them to hire you
2) Get an agent in when they're ready to talk money.
3) Always be willing to walk away.

Jose


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 14, 2008)

My 2 cents:

Cent 1 : if they offer you more than 25K, ask for a bit more, but take it. And if they want live players, add 5 or 10K.

Cent 2: agents won't get you gigs necessarily, but they can help you with legals, feed you some industry news, pass on your demo once in a while. I'm not talking Hollywood agents though - for those I have no idea. Also, you can negotiate to have them charge you only on the part of your fee that is related to composition, not the part that is for the hiring of musicians, recording time/costs, equipment purchases for the gig, etc. In the end, you might get them to charge you 10 % on only 1/2 of your total fee.

OK, so the second cent was bigger.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 15, 2008)

david robinson @ 14/2/2008 said:


> 3) Always be willing to walk away.



Easier said then done when your only income comes from writing for image. Just keeping it real... :mrgreen:


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## Rob Elliott (Feb 15, 2008)

Thanks guys for all the advice.


I think I'll go through the steps Jose lists. Once I have the job (but not $$$ contracted) I would like to bring in the agent/rep to negotiate final deal. Can someone suggests someone?


Many thanks.


Rob

(Nathan - when someone tells me 3-5 million - in my mind they probably only REALLY have 2-3 million :D.)


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## drasticmeasures (Feb 15, 2008)

"Nathan - when someone tells me 3-5 million - in my mind they probably only REALLY have 2-3 million"

Probably wise! I also call that an "IMDB 5 million" - when an indie film says 5 mil on IMDB, it's really 2 mil. Kinda like the reverse of a woman telling you her weight.

Rob, check your PM's for my info regarding agent contacts. Feel free to call and I can make a couple of suggestions.


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## Rob Elliott (Feb 15, 2008)

Thanks Nathan - I'll check it now. 

ROb


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## John DeBorde (Feb 16, 2008)

yeah, all this speculating about budgets, agents etc is moot if you don't have the gig locked down already. Convincing them that they _have_ to hire you is the best thing you can do for getting your fee up. If you're just one of many people they are considering they can easily pit you against them in a race to see who will take the lowest fee.

AFA as budget, they probably have a pretty firm figure in mind that they are expecting to pay which will be difficult to get them to budge from unless they get all starry eye-d. I heard on _American Beauty_ they had $50k for the score, but when they found out they could get T Newman for $250K, whaddaya know they magically found it. Some producers budget generously for music and others decidedly not, so you have to feel them out to get a sense of where they are going to be with it.

And there are plenty of agents out there who would probably do this for you as "one off" if you've locked down the gig already. Hopefully they'd be able to negotiate you up a bit to cover their 10% cut, but keep in mind that to an agent a few more G's for you is only a few more hundred for them, so I think at a certain point they're more interested in making the deal and moving on than haggling a few extra thousand for you. And I would definitely go with a personal recommendation if you get one.

Sorry if this is all obvious, but good luck! I hope you get the gig. 

john


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## poseur (Feb 22, 2008)

much great advice given in this thread, imo.
still, i'll pile on w/some potential considerations:
1) how much will the music cost ye to score, record & mix?
(given that it seems as if it'd be a "package-", or "all-in-" deal).

2) what is the projected schedule / time-frame for music production,
ie 
a) can it be done (well), is it "open-ended",
b) might it take more time than
it's worth to you,
c) is there a fixed "out"-date, etc?

3) can you gauge what your bottom-line needs are, financially, and
weigh that against other, pertinent factors?, like
a) is the film awesome, and worthy (iyo) of potential awards and/or commercial success, or of helping you connect with a suitable agent?
b) can you see yourself creating future relationships w/the director, the producer(s),
the mx-editor, etc?
c) is the film awesome, and do you feel strongly that it's "right" for you
--- beyond the pragmatic "paying gig"-aspect of it, of course ---
with or without potential creative challenges that may arise, thereby taking more time & costing you more $$ than was planned?

additionally, as some have already pointed out:
one might be well-served by being prepared to measure
one's own perception of self-value (and, time)
vs
what one might encounter as the projected perceptions of other folks
--- ie, your publicly-perceived "value" in the marketplace ---
esp. regarding those who are responsible for the hiring-of
and/or the payments-to you.

..... just another 1.5 centablos, there.....

write well, and good fortune to ye!

d


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## madbulk (Feb 22, 2008)

Just wondering about the general state of things... Nathan mentioned that if the "take or leave" offer was disappointingly low you might try to retain some of your pub. Are you talking about keeping part of the publishers side? or are you just saying avoid buy out and keep some of the writers share?
Wondering are composers routinely giving up the whole thing on indi's nowadays?


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