# Mike Verta's new keyboard thread got me thinking...



## Kent (Jun 24, 2017)

Do any of you use old synths as your MIDI keyboards for modern-style VI control? Say, a DX7 or a D-50?

Or, if you don't but you're knowledgeable about them, why would this be a good idea or a terrible idea?


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## jonnybutter (Jun 24, 2017)

Probably depends on the particular keyboard. I have an older (90s) keyboard - an Alesis Quadrasynth + piano - and it sends out goofy/random data - sometimes pitchwheel, which is really weird sounding! It used to be so much fun to play live! I've replaced the battery and reset the thing, but - no luck. Maybe something else will work..?


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## charlieclouser (Jun 24, 2017)

For a while I used Roland RS-9's as master keyboards. I bought them because they have 88-key synth-action key beds, plus a nice set of knobs that can send MIDI CC's, as well as an array of eight big, illuminated buttons that can switch between 8 "performance patches" very quickly. These performance patches can store the MIDI out channel, so for a while I was using this as a means to select between articulations. I'd set each articulation to a separate MIDI channel and then switch on the fly while playing. I though it would be nice to see, via illuminated buttons, which articulation I'd hear if I played the keyboard, but in practice this was not as elegant as I'd hoped.

But the main reason I stopped using them (besides the awful gold finish on the top panel!) was Roland's horrible combined pitch and mod wheel thingie, which makes using any patch that relies on mod wheel for dynamic control simply impossible.

Too bad, because I did like the feel of the key bed. I have given thought to disassembling them and building them permanently into my desk, with the knobs moved to the left and the pitch / mod wheel thingie replaced with the mechanism from another keyboard, but.... too much hassle. A $200 M-Audio Keystation does me fine these days.


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## mverta (Jun 24, 2017)

I actually picked up another of those Keystations the other day, because to me there's no significant quality difference between this ultra-cheap option, and the current best option out there for 88's. It's why I'm designing my own, and there's just no reason to throw more money at it. Plus, I have no qualms about tossing it (usually literally) into the back of my car for a gig.


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## Tino Danielzik (Jun 24, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> For a while I used Roland RS-9's as master keyboards. I bought them because they have 88-key synth-action key beds, plus a nice set of knobs that can send MIDI CC's, as well as an array of eight big, illuminated buttons that can switch between 8 "performance patches" very quickly. These performance patches can store the MIDI out channel, so for a while I was using this as a means to select between articulations. I'd set each articulation to a separate MIDI channel and then switch on the fly while playing. I though it would be nice to see, via illuminated buttons, which articulation I'd hear if I played the keyboard, but in practice this was not as elegant as I'd hoped.
> 
> But the main reason I stopped using them (besides the awful gold finish on the top panel!) was Roland's horrible combined pitch and mod wheel thingie, which makes using any patch that relies on mod wheel for dynamic control simply impossible.
> 
> Too bad, because I did like the feel of the key bed. I have given thought to disassembling them and building them permanently into my desk, with the knobs moved to the left and the pitch / mod wheel thingie replaced with the mechanism from another keyboard, but.... too much hassle. A $200 M-Audio Keystation does me fine these days.



Hear you Charlie!


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## gsilbers (Jun 24, 2017)

i used my virus ti keyboard but turn out that the midi assigments are very different. and their template midi cc thing didnt work as i thought. which is basically my theme on this sort of stuff. one thing for one purpose and not a multi purpose pieace of gear. keyboard with audio i/o, or whatever.


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## gsilbers (Jun 24, 2017)

Tino Danielzik said:


> Hear you Charlie!



i cant remeber the last time i saw an iPod


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## sherief83 (Jun 24, 2017)

One more vote for cheap keystation 88 keys. Tossed it around and never once felt sorry for it when keys broke. I'm on my third one (black version) since I bought my first silver one 10 years ago.

Edit:

If money was no objection, I'd go for Korg Kronos LS (light touch keys) that they just put out. Amazing stuff.


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## zolhof (Jun 24, 2017)

sherief83 said:


> If money was no objection, I'd go for Korg Kronos LS (light touch keys) that they just put out. Amazing stuff.



It's a shame Korg didn't include aftertouch on the LS, especially at $3.5K ouch

Regarding OP's question, I've used a Roland JD-800 for quite a while as my main controller, you can use Bome Translator to convert sysex into CC, then you have a HUGE midi slider box. I could get away with it for almost anything, the only scenario I'd switch boards is if I had to do some intricate piano work.


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## chimuelo (Jun 25, 2017)

I'm still in love with my Physis K4 for 3 years now.
Can't stand "light" (cheap) action, don't like "heavy" (expensive) action.

Need 8 x MIDI Ports
4 x USB Ports + USB Host x 2
Need 8 Zones
Need 4 x Banks of 9 sliders, 9 buttons, 9 knobs
Need 8 x 1/4" x continuos CC Controller jacks
Need Mains power
Need 128 Performaces with 4 x Scenes per performance
Need 3 x large Modulation wheels

Own many and have owned many.
Nothing ever comes close to the control this has
VST Instrument and DAW Templates x 10


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## gpax (Jun 25, 2017)

@chimuelo Are those DJ TechTools' knobs?


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## chimuelo (Jun 25, 2017)

Yes they are.
I can see them when lights go dark.
Plus they are sticky soft easy to grip.
And this K4 doesn't have their Piano, just a controller.
It's short in depth, easy to carry.
It's for live work.
But live work means faster work flow in my world.


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## FriFlo (Jun 25, 2017)

I have a Kurzweil Midiboard. It is one of the best actions ever built, it has polyphonic aftertouch and it's built like a tank.


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## Sebastianmu (Jun 25, 2017)

jonnybutter said:


> I have an older (90s) keyboard - an Alesis Quadrasynth + piano - and it sends out goofy/random data - sometimes pitchwheel, which is really weird sounding! It used to be so much fun to play live! I've replaced the battery and reset the thing, but - no luck. Maybe something else will work..?


This problem occurs because the mod-wheel/pitch-wheel- potentiometer is old and needs to be replaced. It has a little wiper on the inside that rubs against some resistive surface coating, which over time just wears off. Shouldn't be too big of a deal to replace it, though..


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## jonnybutter (Jun 25, 2017)

Sebastianmu said:


> This problem occurs because the mod-wheel/pitch-wheel- potentiometer is old and needs to be replaced. It has a little wiper on the inside that rubs against some resistive surface coating, which over time just wears off. Shouldn't be too big of a deal to replace it, though..



Thank you Sebastianmu! I really love the old thing


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## Hywel (Jun 25, 2017)

Until I got a NI S88 last year, I used an old Technics digital piano as a MIDI keyboard for ages it seems... the young chap you see in the picture is now 28 years old! (The keyboard above the piano incidentally, is a Roland D-20).

The Technics recorded into Cubase through a MIDI interface with an 5 pin DIN plug which was the standard in those days, there being no USB around then. The problem I lived with throughout this time was having to manually edit every track I recorded because about half a dozen notes in each take would not have had their "note off" information recorded. It was an easy edit but a total pain in the backside.

Now I'm not sure whether it was the Technics at fault, the MIDI interface I was using, the 5 pin DIN system, or some other problem but I no longer have to perform this surgery with my S88 recorded tracks.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 25, 2017)

I have used a Kurzweil PC 88 for years but just replaced it with this:
https://ask.audio/articles/review-dexibell-vivo-s7-digital-piano


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## Maximvs (Jun 25, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> I have used a Kurzweil PC 88 for years but just replaced it with this:
> https://ask.audio/articles/review-dexibell-vivo-s7-digital-piano


Hi Jay,

I have read with great interest your Dexibell Vivo S7 review... I had a chance to test out the Vivo S7 quite recently at a local store and, even though I liked the piano sound and quite liked the keyboard feel, I have not been convinced about some other aspects of that stage piano and in the end I opted for the Yamaha CP4.

Cheers, Max


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## AllanH (Jun 25, 2017)

I use a Kurzweil PC3LE8 hammer action midi keyboard, but do at times miss synth action for certain playing styles.


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## synthpunk (Jun 25, 2017)

Still some great older keyboard controllers out there like the Midiboard, KX-88/76, Kawai 8000, etc. If you can find them used in good condition. My dumpster dived Peavey DPM C8 battleship is still fine. But if Mike's endeavour is to my liking I will finally retire her.


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## DocMidi657 (Jun 25, 2017)

I am still using my old Motif ES8 as my controller becuase it has 1. decent 88 note weighted action..With After Touch. 2. Pich and Mod Wheels in the right location. I have also used a PC88 for years as well for the same reason however Yamaha's action is of higher quality in feel and reliabalilty then the PC 88 imo. I also use a Yamaha KX8 which was discontinued and not to be confused with KX88 however the KX8 does not have after touch, chassis is plastic that hurts the feel when the the keys travel to the bottom. Also the pitch and mod are in the upper place of the keyboard which is a royal pain in the butt. Interesting how the chassis can effect the "FEEL" of the keboard but it does. I beefed it up and it helpded alot and gave a more "Solid FEEL". Just a heads up for consideration Mike Verta when building one (but you probably know this). When I worked for Ensoniq we used a company FATAR out of Italy for our keybeds, they even designed one with "POLY" AFter Touch though the polyaftertouch concept never caught on.  When I went to work for Korg we used (belive it or not) Yamaha for our keyboards for the M1 and T Series and Wavestattion but then to save on costs we went with FATAR as well for later synths. During that time period Fatar actions were always less expensive but also felt that way ( a bit spongy).


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## mwarsell (Jun 25, 2017)

FriFlo said:


> I have a Kurzweil Midiboard. It is one of the best actions ever built, it has polyphonic aftertouch and it's built like a tank.


That thing is excruciatingly hard to find. I have never seen one for sale locally.


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## Nathanael Iversen (Jun 25, 2017)

I use a VAX77. The action is very light compared to a piano, but far more controllable than a synth keyboard - even a premium one like the Bowen Solaris. I can happily play Pianoteq on it. 

The Viscount looks like the only game in town for a live controller in one board. I can't deal with the cheap m-audio class of stuff. The keyfeel is just horrible, and the MIDI data is a mess - it is very hard to get any real dynamic control through velocity on the low class boards. 

For a while I had a cheap AKAI keyboard on top of the VAX to provide sliders and buttons, but the action was only good for non-velocity sensitive playing - on-off switches in the shape of keys. Getting it all in one would be wonderful.

I like the idea of the new Montage7, but I really don't want narrow keys...


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## Saxer (Jun 25, 2017)

kmaster said:


> Do any of you use old synths as your MIDI keyboards for modern-style VI control? Say, a DX7 or a D-50?
> 
> Or, if you don't but you're knowledgeable about them, why would this be a good idea or a terrible idea?


I used a DX7 as main keyboard for years... but the velocity range ends at (I think) 120. I had the EX5 later (also Yamaha keyboard with 76 keys). I'm not a piano player but I always liked the Yamaha keyboard feeling more than Roland for everything DAW related.
Today I use a Studiologic SL88. Good keyboard if you don't need wheels (it has three joy sticks only). I have external CC controllers (windcontroller, breath controller, faderbox, synth) so it's absolutely ok for me.


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## Michael Antrum (Jun 25, 2017)

I mainly use my Nord Stage 2EX as a master keyboard - it might not have the best piano hammer action - but it is perfect for multi-purpose use. It's light and compact for a stage piano - so it's as portable as you will get with an 88 hammer action, it has terrific sounds in it's own right, and when you play it, it feels like you re playing a musical instrument.

I also have a Kontrol S61 which is nice and light, whilst being one of the better modern controllers for when I am just travelling.

It ironic when you compare that the Nord has 1gb storage to the size of some of the libraries I am cramming into SSD's though.....


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## gsilbers (Jun 26, 2017)

i dont know if this was mentioned but form factor is important to some of us. Keeping it low profile and not deep would be great.


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## zvenx (Jun 26, 2017)

Nothing is going to pry me from my Roland A-90[email protected] it has both joystick and wheels and I actually prefer joystick for most things except the case you mention. modwheel to dynamics...I am sure you know more than I do.... but isn't this a bastardization of what modwheel was meant to be? Certainly in my younger days, modwheel was for vibrato, and now it is used for dynamics et al....standards should be standards, but I digress 
Now some sound developers use pitchwheel for non pitch stuff as well... sigh..

I also have my Korg T-2 as an alternate controller when I do really need a synthy action
rsp


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