# Fastest way to build MIDI CC data in sampled orchestration?



## Boltrane (Oct 3, 2022)

Any advice on efficiently building MIDI CC data when doing sampled orchestration?

I use a scorewriter (MuseScore) to compose, and then I import it as a MIDI (.mid) file into my DAW. The process yields MIDI tracks with velocity data based on my MuseScore dynamics markings (_pp, p, mf, ff,_ etc.; plus crescendos and decrescendos). From there, for realism, I have to draw all the CC curves: expression, dynamics, vibrato, etc. This is labour intensive and really time consuming! But the alternative -- recording every instrument's part via a MIDI keyboard -- is worse!

Yes, you can use an ensemble patch and record four parts simultaneously via MIDI keyboard, then split them up into separate tracks. But for orchestration you potentially have ten or 20 parts. Again, you can copy-and-paste the initial four lines to various instruments' DAW tracks. But because both your hands were occupied during recording, you've got to record CC sliders over your note- and velocity-data. Is this approach the most efficient way?

One other point: I use counterpoint sometimes (free counterpoint and/or canons of pitch or rhythm), as feels appropriate creatively. That simply can't be done on the fly. Well, maybe J S Bach could work that way, but I can't. It needs first to be worked out in notation. Furthermore, I find that when I input CC data via sliders, it's pretty wonky and (except for slow, long notes) needs editing anyway.

If I'm going to keep doing sampled orchestration, it's vital I find the fastest, least fussy way to build CC data. Because, with my current methods, each project really burns me out!


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## mybadmemory (Oct 3, 2022)

The two common ways are either recording it live (with modwheels, sliders, breath controllers, or other hardware devices), or drawing it afterwards in the DAW (using a mouse or pen tablet). 

I don’t know if any real shortcuts other than potentially re-using data between parts by copying and pasting. And that potentially a pen tablet feels more natural and therefore quicker than using a mouse. 

The dynamics are really what makes the difference though. But I totally agree that getting notes in is the easy part, while massaging the CC data until it sounds believable is what takes the majority of the time.


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## Markus Kohlprath (Oct 3, 2022)

One thing that speeded up my workflow dramatically was to use the line tool instead of the pencil tool. You get a curve with just two clicks and you can be very precise either horizontally or vertically.


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## Boltrane (Oct 4, 2022)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> One thing that speeded up my workflow dramatically was to use the line tool instead of the pencil tool. You get a curve with just two clicks and you can be very precise either horizontally or vertically





mybadmemory said:


> The two common ways are either recording it live (with modwheels, sliders, breath controllers, or other hardware devices), or drawing it afterwards in the DAW (using a mouse or pen tablet).
> 
> I don’t know if any real shortcuts other than potentially re-using data between parts by copying and pasting. And that potentially a pen tablet feels more natural and therefore quicker than using a mouse.
> 
> The dynamics are really what makes the difference though. But I totally agree that getting notes in is the easy part, while massaging the CC data until it sounds believable is what takes the majority of the time.


Thanks! I wasn't sure if pen tablets worked in DAWs, but you've answered that question. So, I'm off to look for a pen-and-tablet combo. Because using a mouse is clunky and invites repetitive strain injury.


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## Boltrane (Oct 4, 2022)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> One thing that speeded up my workflow dramatically was to use the line tool instead of the pencil tool. You get a curve with just two clicks and you can be very precise either horizontally or vertically.


I use REAPER and I know it offers bezier curves between CC points (vs. stright-line connections). But I don't know how to edit those bezier curves; it's time to find out! Thx


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## Boltrane (Oct 4, 2022)

Boltrane said:


> Thanks! I wasn't sure if pen tablets worked in DAWs, but you've answered that question. So, I'm off to look for a pen-and-tablet combo. Because using a mouse is clunky and invites repetitive strain injury.


BTW, I do use copy-and-paste within, and between, tracks. Doing so _is_ a great time-saver; but, man, the CC-curve-drawing process is still daunting in a big sampled-orchestration project.


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## rMancer (Oct 4, 2022)

Only somewhat related, but if you are using Reaper and you don't already use the "js_Mouse Editing - Multi Tool" script for manipulating CC data, you might be missing out! It's handy to quickly stretch/squash/warp/compress/expand/ramp/move MIDI CC data in the editor, all with one clever script.


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## tc9000 (Oct 4, 2022)

Boltrane said:


> I use REAPER and I know it offers bezier curves between CC points (vs. stright-line connections). But I don't know how to edit those bezier curves; it's time to find out! Thx


I use reaper and I tend to hold the SHIFT key and the left mouse click to place the troughs and peaks of MIDI CC curves. I will check out js_Mouse Editing - Multi Tool though for sure.


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## Boltrane (Oct 4, 2022)

Thanks to both @tc9000 and @rMancer for their tips: the SHIFT-key idea and js_Mouse_Editing Multi-tool respectively. The more we all share our CC-editing experience, the more everyone may pick up new skills.


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## Snarf (Oct 4, 2022)

Boltrane said:


> This is labour intensive and really time consuming!


Yes.



Boltrane said:


> But the alternative -- recording every instrument's part via a MIDI keyboard -- is worse!


Yes.



Boltrane said:


> If I'm going to keep doing sampled orchestration, it's vital I find the fastest, least fussy way to build CC data. Because, with my current methods, each project really burns me out!



I'm very sorry to tell you, but there is really no way around creating good midi CC data. It is absolutely essential to make your samples come to life. I know people who redraw/re-record them 20+ times to get the perfect curves. I sometimes do so too for important passages. Yes, creating realistic/expressive music in a DAW is time-consuming, but taking the effort is the difference between amateur and professional sounding music. 

That said, here are some tips that might help to optimize your workflow.

1) record midi CCs for faster passages, draw them in for very slow sustained ones & passages that require very specific maneuvring.

2) CTRL+Z and re-recording is sometimes better than fixing mistakes by hand.

3) Record arm multiple instruments/sections at once, e.g. flutes and violins, to record their CCs in one go. This is only possible when the lines (and their dynamics) are similar. Furthermore, it requires that libraries are well balanced against each other, such as with the Cinematic Studio series.

4) Depending on your DAW, there might be shortcuts for quickly opening/closing CC lanes and copying info between instruments.

Hope these are helpful. I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news. 🤷‍♂️


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## ed buller (Oct 4, 2022)

My Advice would be to switch to Dorico. Then you wouldn't need to go to a DAW and you can set it up so dynamic markings control all the CC's you need.

Best

ed


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## Boltrane (Oct 4, 2022)

ed buller said:


> My Advice would be to switch to Dorico. Then you wouldn't need to go to a DAW and you can set it up so dynamic markings control all the CC's you need.
> 
> Best
> 
> ed


I've recently wondered whether Dorico had an internal DAW or could play samples of sufficiently high quality to dispense entirely with DAW stage in sampled orchestration. If what you say is true, then I may give Dorico a try. The functionality you describe sounds wonderful.


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## Boltrane (Oct 4, 2022)

Snarf said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> Yes.
> ...


Excellent tips, especially 3) on record-arming multiple tracks that share notes and similar dynamics. That will yield a big savings in time and trouble. Thanks!


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## ed buller (Oct 4, 2022)

Boltrane said:


> I've recently wondered whether Dorico had an internal DAW or could play samples of sufficiently high quality to dispense entirely with DAW stage in sampled orchestration. If what you say is true, then I may give Dorico a try. The functionality you describe sounds wonderful.








Dorico ET The Flying Theme Mockup Straight From Score


I think DORICO is the bee's patella. This the score typed in ( about a day's work ) NO cc tweaking just dynamic markers and Tempo Fiddling. Some Reverb and a taste of Comp across the Master Bus. Mostly VSL with a little help from Berlin and Spitfire...




vi-control.net





works well

best

e


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## Erik (Oct 5, 2022)

Boltrane said:


> Thanks! I wasn't sure if pen tablets worked in DAWs, but you've answered that question. So, I'm off to look for a pen-and-tablet combo. Because using a mouse is clunky and invites repetitive strain injury.


You're right. Indeed, for many of us is manual CC handling daily practice, there is no other way to get a better performance result than with this labour. With all risks of serious injuries of the mouse hand/arm.

There might be a solution for this RSI problem however.
A few week ago there was a thread on the VI forum about CoyoteMIDI. Having tried all kind of mouse replacing software and hardware (like the Huion tablet with pen) in the past, I was very interested in this software: I was never happy eventually with all other stuff I tried out, the tablet/pen hardware ususally forces you to find the specific spot on the tablet itself that corresponds with the exact location of your cursor on the screen. This is time consuming and not very productive. Plus, it can be a pain with a pen when performing simple commands as double clicks, dragging etc..

What does CoyoteMIDI do? It makes it possible to use a MIDI keyboard, Nanocontroller, Joué-controller (and go on) as a source for regular desktop actions that we use on daily basis.

I bought the PRO version of this product, only a little $29. 
I made a few so called 'translations' in the app, linked to my XKey Air 25 USB keyboard. But what does it do actually in practice?

If I hit on my XKey Air: 
-C3, while just moving the mouse with a very relaxed hand/fingers position it replaces the left mouse click, hitting this twice it replaces the dreaded double clicking
-C#3: undo
-D3: (a very important one for me): Click and drag (I have spent hours with this one already in Cubase), again while only moving the mouse.
-E3: save

Specifically for Cubase:
-G3: replaces the '1' key (for selecting tool)
-A3: the '8' key (for writing tool)
Why these ones? What drives me insane often in Cubase is working in the Editor, Controller lane with often/'always' the wrong tool coming out of my mouse, only to be changed with a free finger pressing the other key, sigh.
Now with the use of the XKey Air it is all to be found within the range of a relaxed hand above 5 or 6 white keys of the USB keyboard. This is stunningly relaxed!

And also these ones, specifically for Samplitude, very useful for me:
-F3 Fade out command
-F3#: save and close project (which can be a customized sample or track, whatever)
Man, with all the 4000 samples of a new product to be launched shortly I would have been a different person at the end of all those days with this software if I had known this before......

The helpdesk is more than great, I once received a reply within a few (!!) seconds. The guy behind it is most willing to help you with the scripts, needed for your favorite _actions_.

Since we are all spending hours and hours with a mouse this tool *can *be a life saver for many of us, working on a score in a notation program or handling tracks/making music in your DAW. It doesn't make any difference for this CoyoteMIDI. At the moment I also use it for in many other apps like Office, browsing, checking mails etc.. 

The only possible drawback could be for composers that you also will need a real keyboard for musical input. You can't have both in this. So you'll need at least a free midi keyboard next to the CoyoteMIDI one that is in use, or your controller (Korg etc.).

Don't we all have a redundant keyboard maybe somewhere?

BTW, I am not affiliated with this very small company.


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## Boltrane (Oct 5, 2022)

Erik said:


> You're right. Indeed, for many of us is manual CC handling daily practice, there is no other way to get a better performance result than with this labour. With all risks of serious injuries of the mouse hand/arm.
> 
> There might be a solution for this RSI problem however.
> A few week ago there was a thread on the VI forum about CoyoteMIDI. Having tried all kind of mouse replacing software and hardware (like the Huion tablet with pen) in the past, I was very interested in this software: I was never happy eventually with all other stuff I tried out, the tablet/pen hardware ususally forces you to find the specific spot on the tablet itself that corresponds with the exact location of your cursor on the screen. This is time consuming and not very productive. Plus, it can be a pain with a pen when performing simple commands as double clicks, dragging etc..
> ...


Thanks for this detailed intro to CoyoteMIDI and using a MIDI keyboard as a source for typical desktop actions (e.g., mouse clicks). As I only have one MIDI keyboard at the moment, I'll have to find a small, simple alternate one first!


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## Galbaniél (Oct 27, 2022)

I don't have a shortcut for CC editing, other then what others have stated (copying, record enable similar tracks etc) but if you want to save a bit on your mouse swinging wrist and don't want to buy a hardware controller, I would suggest TouchOSC (or similar).
A lot cheaper and you can just use your phone and ride a few parameters pretty good that way. Although, I would suggest a tablet if you want to ride a lot of parameters simultaneously.

I'm sorry I don't have a faster/easier/magic solution. I think we're all looking for that... Let me know if you find one, will you?


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