# Problem achieving String Quartet-like sound? Library problem or mixing?



## optimus81 (Jan 6, 2020)

Greetings! I'm new to the forum and greatly wish I had discovered this place earlier in my journey into the world of virtual instruments and midi orchestration! While I do have a relatively strong classical musical background (piano and trumpet), creating music using the DAW has been a pretty steep learning curve which I started this past summer. That said, you've been warned! 

I'm currently struggling with finding the right articulations and balance in sound for a string quartet-like introduction to my current composition. As reference, I'm essentially going for this sort of sound and bow articulation: Mendelssohn - String Quartet in D Major, Op. 44, No.1: IV Presto con brio: 

*Question 1) What type of bow articulation is this? Detache? Martale? I am not a string player and frankly, had zero idea that string players had so many different names for each of these types of articulations until I started creating music for them!*

Here is a link to my current draft version of the intro: 

Now, I've gone through countless fiddling with the EQ, fiddling with the different library articulations, layering the track with one track having a bit more reverb and room acoustics, with the other track having a more close mic feel which led to an (even more) artificial sound as well as doubling the chords across two octaves to achieve a somewhat fuller, less bright sound. I finally left it after frustration, I just can't seem to produce the right sound I am looking for with my current library (NI - String Ensemble - Symphony Essentials). Whats slightly maddening is that I was originally using a free VST (Sonatina Orchestra), and it sounded a bit better, IMO. Yet I'm struggling to achieve the same effect with this library. 

Here's my piano roll: 






Here are the reverb and EQ settings respectively below:











Now, when it comes to editing and mixing, this leads me to my next question.

*Question 2) For those of you more familiar with velocity editing, is there a way of adjusting the velocity of these chords AFTER recording?* This particular NI library is not responsive to velocity editing and after doing some discussion board research, it appears that only short articulations may be responsive to velocity editing and the general idea with the longer articulations is that you would use the modwheel to adjust while recording. At first this was baffling to me but it looks like this is common behavior that the velocity is not controlled by the key depression within the midi controller. After seeing an incredibly informative youtube video from Mike Verta on how to use the modwheel and why, this makes a lot more sense to me. At the same time, I still have the question of how to edit afterwards. This is also impossible to achieve if you are playing a passage that requires two hands or that is "impossible" to play on the keyboard and requires midi editing. How are people overcoming this hurdle?


I may be trying to achieve the impossible with this library and I'm seeing through reading multiple posts on VI-control that almost no one seems to be using Native Instrument libraries for _classical_ orchestral music which is telling. If at all possible, I'd like to see how closely I can get this to the sound I'm looking for before giving up and purchasing another sample library. I've seen many recommendations for the Spitfire Chamber Ensemble series but as a newbie, I'd really like to make sure I'm exploring all of my available options via EQing and other mixing/balancing techniques I'm not aware of... That said, I'll take recommendations and hold off for the next Black Friday/Summer sale! 

Any help would be greatly appreciated to humanize the sound and achieve a more string quartet like feel. For what its worth, I just discovered that humanizing the sound of virtual instruments appeared to be an area of study within this DAW world (BTW, I am using Ableton Live (standard). I really felt that it was completely dependant on the quality of the library. It also seems I have quite a bit to learn on mastering and mixing for orchestra which is another thing I did not suspect I'd need to know to this extent! 

Thanks in advance!


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## tc9000 (Jan 6, 2020)

firstly i'm a n00b so take what i say with a pinch of salt.

you are already on the right track - you will probably want to control the 'expression' - the intensity of the playing, and you can do this after playing in the notes in your DAW, by writing in MIDI automation data as a waveform, or you can work out how to record the mod wheel over the main track. in reaper this is called 'touch record' i think.

im not an ableton user but this might help:



i think this video may also help a lot:



beyond this, varying the depth and frequency of vibrato, the volume, and of course, the humanisation of the timing of notes, and the way tempo can vary for the players together (tempo maps?) can all create more 'human' sounding music.

then, there's the orchestration? voicing? (not sure im using the correct terms here) - rather than play all the notes of a chord like a block, you could have violins playing the upper notes, violas playing the next lower notes, cellos lower again and finally basses covering the lowest note. splitting chords out into single voices i guess.

as i say - n00b here - probably the least well qualified here 🙃


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## mohsohsenshi (Jan 7, 2020)

With your draft version, I'd say you should study how to write for String Quartet first rather than go straight into midi/sample stuff, neither for EQ or mixing.

Not like piano, strings do not play just chords as mentioned. Each part has its own line and can be played as melody or pattern (ostinato, arpeggio, etc).

Take a free sheet music on IMSLP, then try to make a mock up from it.





String Quartet No.3, Op.44 No.1 (Mendelssohn, Felix) - IMSLP: Free Sheet Music PDF Download







imslp.org





Play each part with your sample in DAW, observe every articulation applied by the composer, choose the right patch for them. Listen to the original record and do your best to approach the phrasing. It's not to say you have to achieve exactly the same sound of the record, what matters is you learn how a string is played (Like you can easily figure out a convincing trumpet line/phrasing/sound as a trumpet player).

Go to youtube and search articulations' name, listen to examples and remember what effect they can achieve. Go back to your classical sheet music example and check how the composer applied them.

Then begin to write a short , simple piece for string quartet, no more than 32 bars. Using simple chord progressions , pay attention to good voice leading, counter movement and dynamic. Once getting that correct choral sound, try to add some interesting patterns with more articulations. Experiment things by imitating the others' compositions.

Now it makes sense to study midi techniques after mastering these above.
Adding EQ or reverb or even buying a super expensive high end library can't make your composition sound good. All depends on your music writing techniques first, it's your basic. Mozart didn't have Mac Pro or Berlin String library or UAD mixing system, with paper and pen he wrote great music.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 7, 2020)

You're using string sections instead of a string quartet...


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## tc9000 (Jan 7, 2020)

another really good resource:






Part writing or the importance of not being lazy – complete with fancy pictures and sound


Have you ever heard of some arcane device called ‘part writing’? Ever wondered if it could help you improve your writing? If the answer to the second question is no then congratulations. You can save yourself the hassle of reading through this and just have a quick glance at the fancy pictures...




vi-control.net





also, in that thread, there's a post that has links to a workflow walkthrough video that shows (among other things!) the composer Trevor Morris going from a two-handed 'block' ensemble patch:



to breaking it out into voices:


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## Steve Wheeler (Jan 7, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> You're using string sections instead of a string quartet...



100% this. What you're using are what's called ensemble patches. These are full sections. Modern orchestra is somewhere around 16/14/12/10/8. That's 16 violin I's, 14 violin II's, 12 Violas, 10 celli, and 8 double bass. Not all sample libraries have this exact amount of players, but it's going to be a far cry more than 4 of them. 

For a quartet, your best bet's probably soloists. There's a few out there. I'm looking at the Cinematic Studio Series Soloists one of these days. There's also Embertone's soloists as well. I'd look for reviews on here for soloist libraries. I'm sure people will be more than happy to offer their opinion. 

Good luck composing!


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## Rob (Jan 7, 2020)

Maybe the op means four parts strings writing...


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## Steve Wheeler (Jan 7, 2020)

Rob said:


> Maybe the op means four parts strings writing...



This is a good point too. Might be best to think of each instrument as one note in the line. With the exception of double stops and stuff for effect, strings typically play 1 note at a time. So if you wanted a quartet sound, you'd want chords with no more than 4 notes.


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## optimus81 (Jan 7, 2020)

tc9000! Really appreciate the response! I watched both videos and performed some additional research on YouTube about automation within Ableton. While I am familiar with the concept of automation, I kept seeing it in relationship to velocity and not so much as far as changing articulations. It sounds like I'll need to map the expression, vibrato, articulation etc. to Midi CC, then use automation to change these within the MIDI Channel within Ableton. BTW, if anyone has done this using Ableton, please tell me if this is the right (or best) way of achieving this...

It's been a bit of a roller coaster trying to understand how best to do this between using key switches and Midi CC. Most of the YouTube examples I've seen have shown how to change articulation while recording but none of them have really gone into how to edit the articulations manually after the fact. Either way, your suggestions gave me some additional ideas to try!

Perfectly understand what you're saying about orchestration/voicing. Maybe you could call it instrumentation. It's a good point about potentially breaking up the orchestration from a String Ensemble library to individual virtual instruments. I don't believe I have individual solo string instruments within the Symphony Essentials which is one of the reason I had not tried going down that route just yet. Instead, you have an entire Violin Section and an entire Viola Section. I felt a smaller chamber or quartet/quintet like sound is really what I was going for at this stage. But this leads me down to whether or not, the sound I'm going for is truly possible with my current libraries. I've found plenty of uses for the Symphony Essentials libraries in different areas of the current composition but for more exposed solo areas, I've had to bite the bullet and pick up either a solo flute/cello to get the right timbre. I'm not opposed to purchasing solutions to get out of this predicament, I just want to make sure there isn't a huge DAW/virtual instrument/mixing knowledge gap that I'm missing first. 

Newbie to n00b, thanks tc9000!


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## optimus81 (Jan 7, 2020)

mohsohsenshi! Thanks for the response. Great suggestions. I failed to mention that I'm not _*actually *_writing a String Quartet or a piece solely with the instruments that make up a quartet. Sometimes I get so down in the weeds with the mechanics and the technical that I don't mention the overall goal. Right now, this is a first attempt at composing a piece from beginning to end and really learning how to use a DAW, familiarize myself with Kontakt, midi controllers, the different virtual instrument libraries, at some point mastering. What I'm really trying to do is learn how to remove the machine from being an impediment/resisting opponent to what I really want to accomplish which is to focus on making music with the computer. I think once I accomplish this goal, I can put a bit more time into voice leading, harmonization, chord progressions. FWIW, I am studying music theory on the side with a teacher. 

That said, I probably will do exactly what you suggested to familiarize myself with the string instruments. To think I took them for granted all these years sitting in the trumpet section.


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## optimus81 (Jan 7, 2020)

Steve, I think you hit the nail on the head and what I'm gathering is the sound I'm striving for isn't possible with the current library. Unfortunately, I don't have individual instruments to make up a quartet that came with the library pack. Thats one of the reasons why I did NOT break this into individual instruments/midi channels. I felt that it might be possible to master this in such a way that it sounded "smaller" but it seems futile at this point. 

I did listen to a few demo clips from the Cinematic Studio Solo Strings libraries earlier and I think they sound fantastic. Just the right amount of intimacy I'm going for. I had really only planned for the first 8 bars to use this instrumentation but I like the idea of coming back during the development/recapitulation with some really good counterpoint. That wouldn't be possible with the ensemble libraries I currently own. I'm not opposed to purchasing a library here or there as I view this as a future investment which will give me more options. 

Before I purchase anything, I am going to take mohsohsenshi suggestions and have a look at the score and note the articulation used. I feel so "unsophisticated" as a brass player when it comes to the number of articulations as compared to the strings. I always tuned out when hearing conductors yell at the strings about bowing. Now I'm regretting it...


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