# Why don't sync libraries accept scoring cues?



## MeloKeyz (Sep 14, 2022)

Hey Composers,

Every sync music library I came across, both exclusive and NE, seem accepting only epic and loud BOOM music that works in trailer, which is fine because I write in this genre as well. 

However, other times I love to make use of my ambient and atmospheric sounds (pads, gentle drones, vocal FX,..etc) to write an underscore cue and see an income from it too. Why am I saying to see an income from it too? Because I've been writing these types of soft fantasy cues for myself only and it's time to gain profit from it, why not?! And this type of music has a place on TV shows, not only in films. National geographic nature uses this music behind the voice-over dude in the background for instance. 

I still can write in this genre and feed my channel with lots of tracks and turn on monetization but this whole process is slow by nature, thanks to the weird SEO and its magic keywords. I can freely do this with patience if this music got accepted by a library first. 

Bottom line, my ears need a change a bit from booms and explosives to airy atmospheric reverby fantasy music


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## muk (Sep 14, 2022)

But they do. Seems like you only looked at trailer libraries. There are hundreds of production music libraries that accept many genres, including underscore. The Dan Graham articles on Sound on Sound about production music are an excellent place to start if you need some pointers on where to look.


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 14, 2022)

muk said:


> But they do. Seems like you only looked at trailer libraries.


Yep, I am defo doing something wrong and looking in the wrong places. I just forgot to mention this. I am sure 90% of my struggle is MYSELF!  Good point man, thanks


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## jcrosby (Sep 14, 2022)

MeloKeyz said:


> Yep, I am defo doing something wrong and looking in the wrong places. I just forgot to mention this. I am sure 90% of my struggle is MYSELF!  Good point man, thanks


Make sure you listen to playlists from some the bigger companies. You'll see that there are tons of genres most fill, but the quality of tracks are often on par with popular tracks.... And it isn't just the production that's on par, it's clarity of concept, the balance between simplicity, repetition and progression, etc... Basically all of the same rules that apply to good pop music (and trailer music) apply to high quality production music.

I say this because I know you've reached out to trailer libraries, some of the more well-rounded production music companies worth reaching out to can also be quite picky... Listening to playlists from some of the bigger players in the market is a good idea.






APM Music - Playlists







www.apmmusic.com









Playlists







www.universalproductionmusic.com









Music for the World's Media | West One Music Group


Production music from West One Music Group, the leading indepenent provider of music for the world's media. Sync for trailers, television, broadcast, promos & online.




search.westonemusic.com


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 14, 2022)

@jcrosby As if you're watching me my friend, I am actually listening to some cool Warner Chappell cinematic albums now haha I got your point about the quality, thanks mate. I am focusing on quality in general, be it production or trailer music so it's something I am continuously working on. There are ambient tracks there that is very close to what I write. So, I am defo going to give time to write an album or two for production music. Great stuff! and I have this smile on my face now as I am listening


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 14, 2022)

@jcrosby I can see that universal is including a clear email for music submissions. I really love when big production music libraries do that which makes me feel that they appreciate composers.


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## NekujaK (Sep 14, 2022)

Also bear in mind that not all trailer music is bombastic over-the-top adrenalin juice. There's a wide range of movie genres that often utilize more "civilized" types of trailer music: romantic comedies, family films, dramas, period films, documentaries, etc. Many libraries curate music that caters to these genres in addition to the big-boom-bang action/sci-fi stuff.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Sep 14, 2022)

Universal (probably the biggest label or at least in the top) literally didn't have any trailer music and not much big epic stuff till a few years ago, and till about a year ago just about 2 labels focused on that. Instead dozens that focus on other things.
Very confusing post. When just looking briefly at some of the biggest production music libraries literally the opposite is true. It's all very mixed which is the great thing about production music.
Just about every style is represented and requested somewhere. One only must look, which is easy too when checking the bigger sites like Sonoton, WarnerChappellProductionmusic, Universal, Beatbox, APM, KPM, Audio Network (they record lots of score cues at Abbey Road, so I guess that's more than just accepting) etc


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## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 15, 2022)

Lionel Schmitt said:


> and till about a year ago just about 2 labels focused on that.


On trailer and epic stuff? There have been a lot more than that...for several years. Even Universal.


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 15, 2022)

NekujaK said:


> Also bear in mind that not all trailer music is bombastic over-the-top adrenalin juice. There's a wide range of movie genres that often utilize more "civilized" types of trailer music: romantic comedies, family films, dramas, period films, documentaries, etc. Many libraries curate music that caters to these genres in addition to the big-boom-bang action/sci-fi stuff.


Yes, I actually started a thread like week ago talking about this and I got cool responses confirming this fact. Need to stay away a bit from the booms and explosives lol Time for some drama


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 15, 2022)

Lionel Schmitt said:


> Universal (probably the biggest label or at least in the top) literally didn't have any trailer music and not much big epic stuff till a few years ago, and till about a year ago just about 2 labels focused on that. Instead dozens that focus on other things.


Thanks mate, I recently learned that. I am so bad in marketing myself, that's the point. I am just looking in the wrong places. Now, I am having Dan Graham's companies list and his instructions on how to approach them. I already have couple of polished tracks that I am going to post here for feedback and to check if they're high quality. I will never know whether my tracks are high quality or not.


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 15, 2022)

@NekujaK and @muk Could you please confirm if UPM or Warner Chappell need a full album to be submitted or are they okay with singles? I have 3 tracks that I think they are my highest quality works. Of course, feedback will confirm that when I post them. For instance, UPM clearly gave their submission email on the website but they didn't mention if they accept singles or albums or both.


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 15, 2022)

In addition to what I said above, I am working on an album in general but I have these 3 tracks ready so I wanna give it a go.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Sep 15, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> On trailer and epic stuff? There have been a lot more than that...for several years. Even Universal.


I mean labels at Universal not in general. They didn't have trailer labels since Seventh Sense came about some years ago as far as I recall. Volta Music is there too since some years but they have a lot of score/underscore music too, pretty much 50/50 with epic/trailer. Then lately Tonal Chaos and Hypersonic.
And I remember Immediate Music coming and going some years ago, before Seventh Sense I think. So it may have been the only trailer label at that time. I think they were there for a few years then went away. Although they were also quite mixed.
Killer Tracks definitely put out a lot of epic releases but with all the other labels other styles were usually dominating and still are I think, or equal at least.


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## muk (Sep 15, 2022)

Three tracks are fine. If you think they are on the same level or better, quality-wise, than the rest of the catalogue of the library, you are good to go. If they outline a standard procedure for composer submissions, follow it to a t. If they don't, be professional and friendly in your call/e-mail. Most importantly, don't be discouraged if you don't hear back at all, or get rejected. That's absolutely normal. Just keep going. Good luck!


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## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 15, 2022)

MeloKeyz said:


> @NekujaK and @muk Could you please confirm if UPM or Warner Chappell need a full album to be submitted or are they okay with singles? I have 3 tracks that I think they are my highest quality works. Of course, feedback will confirm that when I post them. For instance, UPM clearly gave their submission email on the website but they didn't mention if they accept singles or albums or both.


Most likely, big guys like Warner Chappell won't accept anything you solicit, it will be one of their numerous sub-publishers (which you can find on the Warner Chappell website). I have a lot of stuff on there, but it's through subs. If you get interest from a sub, they will most likely commission an album from you based on their request. That album would typically consist of 10 tracks, along with track versions (usually 5 or so) and all of the stems.


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 15, 2022)

muk said:


> If they outline a standard procedure for composer submissions, follow it


Yes, UPM US has an official "Music Submission" link that opens a form to fill in and upload files. If I already have a DISCO playlist, there's an option to send the playlist's url. Not sure which option is the best for them but I think both methods are acceptable since they allow both 

Last naive question bro and sorry to bother you, I am sure UPM is exclusive, right? because believe it or not! Warner Chappell's production music is non-exclusive. See screenshot below from their support page. News music is exclusive. I thought big production companies are all non-exclusive


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 15, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Most likely, big guys like Warner Chappell won't accept anything you solicit, it will be one of their numerous sub-publishers (which you can find on the Warner Chappell website). I have a lot of stuff on there, but it's through subs. If you get interest from a sub, they will most likely commission an album from you based on their request. That album would typically consist of 10 tracks, along with track versions (usually 5 or so) and all of the stems.


Yep, I learned that Warner is really not straight forward like UPM. I have to go through subs. UPM on the other hand have an official music submission link as easy as non-exclusive sites  And UPM have the most beautiful cinematic tunez that is somehow close to mine.


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## muk (Sep 15, 2022)

MeloKeyz said:


> Last naive question bro and sorry to bother you, I am sure UPM is exclusive, right? because believe it or not! Warner Chappell's production music is non-exclusive. See screenshot below from their support page. News music is exclusive. I thought big production companies are all non-exclusive


Not at all. I am happy to help.

That's a misunderstanding I think. You referred to an explanation for customers, not composers. Suppose you are a music sup for a tv show. You license a track from the catalogue of WCPM, and use it in your show. The same track will also be licensed to other tv shows, radio stations, streaming services, etc. as well. So you bought a non-exlusive license to use the track.

For composers it's different. WCPM *is* an exclusive library. Meaning as a composer, once a track is accepted by WCPM, you can not use it in any other way. 

So yes, WCPM is exclusive. I think you referred to the buyer's faq, not the composer's.


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## NekujaK (Sep 15, 2022)

MeloKeyz said:


> Yes, UPM US has an official "Music Submission" link that opens a form to fill in and upload files. If I already have a DISCO playlist, there's an option to send the playlist's url. Not sure which option is the best for them but I think both methods are acceptable since they allow both
> 
> Last naive question bro and sorry to bother you, I am sure UPM is exclusive, right? because believe it or not! Warner Chappell's production music is non-exclusive. See screenshot below from their support page. News music is exclusive. I thought big production companies are all non-exclusive


I may be mistaken, but I think they way they're using "non-exclusive" in the screenshot means that the music they place is non-exclusive to their clients - meaning the same track could get licensed multiple times by many different clients. However, their arrangement with you, the composer, could still be exclusive.

I write for APM and my arrangement is exclusive, meaning I can't pitch the same tracks to other libraries. However, individual tracks of mine have been placed by APM with multiple clients/networks/shows/commercials, etc. APM's arrangement with clients is non-exclusive.

At least that's my interpretation of your screenshot.


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 15, 2022)

muk said:


> So yes, WCPM is exclusive. I think you referred to the buyer's faq, not the composer's.


Ahaaaa! got it. So, it's a customers faq  Makes sense now, thanks mate, really appreciate your lovely help


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 15, 2022)

NekujaK said:


> but I think they way they're using "non-exclusive" in the screenshot means that the music they place is non-exclusive to their clients - meaning the same track could get licensed multiple times by many different clients. However, their arrangement with you, the composer, could still be exclusive.


Thanks mate, @muk cleared it out for me. You guys are being very helpful today. Hope I can see you guys in the member composition section to get your feedback when I post the tracks  Thanks again


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## NekujaK (Sep 15, 2022)

MeloKeyz said:


> Thanks mate, @muk cleared it out for me. You guys are being very helpful today. Hope I can see you guys in the member composition section to get your feedback when I post the tracks  Thanks again


Yeah, we posted at almost exactly the same time  Will take a listen to your tracks when they're up.


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## muk (Sep 15, 2022)

MeloKeyz said:


> Hope I can see you guys in the member composition section to get your feedback when I post the tracks


Absolutely. Hit me up when you posted and I will make sure to offer feedback.


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 15, 2022)

Tons of thanks guys, I wish you to get cool placements and happy life


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## kenose (Sep 15, 2022)

While it is nice UPM has a submission link, reaching out to the labels within UPM may achieve more direct results— as you can curate what you send exactly to what the label produces.

A lot of those labels handle production pretty independently from UPM.


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## Daryl (Sep 15, 2022)

MeloKeyz said:


> Yes, UPM US has an official "Music Submission" link that opens a form to fill in and upload files. If I already have a DISCO playlist, there's an option to send the playlist's url. Not sure which option is the best for them but I think both methods are acceptable since they allow both
> 
> Last naive question bro and sorry to bother you, I am sure UPM is exclusive, right? because believe it or not! Warner Chappell's production music is non-exclusive. See screenshot below from their support page. News music is exclusive. I thought big production companies are all non-exclusive


No, you misunderstand. It is exclusive to Warner Chappell. Just not to the client. Unlike bespoke music.


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 15, 2022)

kenose said:


> While it is nice UPM has a submission link, reaching out to the labels within UPM may achieve more direct results— as you can curate what you send exactly to what the label produces.
> 
> A lot of those labels handle production pretty independently from UPM.


And this raises a question, if I can send to UPM directly, what is the benefit of sending to their labels? Or do UPM receive submissions and forward them to their respective labels based on the received genres?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 15, 2022)

MeloKeyz said:


> And this raises a question, if I can send to UPM directly, what is the benefit of sending to their labels? Or do UPM receive submissions and forward them to their respective labels based on the received genres?


Frankly, you are wasting your time submitting to them directly. Unless you have absolute top-of-the-line ready tracks (and what they are looking for at any given time), you are merely a needle in a haystack; they probably receive thousands of submissions every week. You need to submit to the subs directly, UPM won't do this for you.


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## NekujaK (Sep 15, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Frankly, you are wasting your time submitting to them directly. Unless you have absolute top-of-the-line ready tracks (and what they are looking for at any given time), you are merely a needle in a haystack; they probably receive thousands of submissions every week. You need to submit to the subs directly, UPM won't do this for you.


^^This

But you can also do both. Go ahead and submit direct and hit up the labels too, to increase your odds of getting picked up


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## kenose (Sep 15, 2022)

MeloKeyz said:


> And this raises a question, if I can send to UPM directly, what is the benefit of sending to their labels? Or do UPM receive submissions and forward them to their respective labels based on the received genres?


From my experience, the contact UPM has with sub labels varies greatly. So whether they forward anything at all is questionable.

The benefit is you can tailor your submission to exactly the style and structures the label produces.

EDIT: I just thought to elaborate on this… the reason the above is extremely beneficial to you is that when reviewing submissions, people will pretty much listen to the first 30s or so of your first track to decide whether to listen to anything else. By directly curating submissions to each label’s sound, you’re increasing the chances of catching the ear of the person listening.

You want to send the message “Hey, I studied what you guys do, I can do stuff that could benefit your catalog, and I understand how to adapt to your aesthetic and structural format”

Nothing sends this message better than two or so well chosen submissions that demonstrate something useful you could bring to the label.

I’ve been involved in this process, and can tell you that composers who demonstrate they understand (and can adapt) to a label’s aesthetic are 100% more likely to get a chance. I have reviewed so many demos from people who just chucked ten recent tracks they did in a playlist, without understanding what the label is about.

Those people’s emails get chucked in the trash, because it’s apparent they lack the attention to detail necessary for this stuff. It’s much easier for a label to work with someone who demonstrates they “get it” from the start.

So any chance you have to increase the specificity of both your email contents and the contact receiving it is highly in your favor.

FWIW, the label I have worked with and for in the past pretty much just sourced composers from their internal roster, referrals from people on the internal roster, and occasionally submissions from the label’s direct contact email— not sure UPM has ever directed a composer to them.


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## TonalDynamics (Sep 15, 2022)

Lionel Schmitt said:


> WarnerChappellProductionmusic, Universal


Warner Chappell Music co., Maschine Concerto for trailer, op. 54296572390857

Universal Studios, Scherzo for trailer in Bb, K. 12398520395

I swear we're inching closer to '_Idiocracy' _every day... 

_Brought to you by Carl's Jr.!_


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 15, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Frankly, you are wasting your time submitting to them directly


hmmmm got your point Jeremy but why are they giving out a direct submission link? As @NekujaK said, it won't hurt to submit to both direct and to their labels. I just need to spend some time listening to their labels to get what they exactly want.


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 15, 2022)

@kenose Your last post needs a thorough study. I think I need to hold my horses here and spend more time analyzing UPM and their labels. I don't need to give negative first impression to be honest


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## Lionel Schmitt (Sep 15, 2022)

TonalDynamics said:


> Warner Chappell Music co., Maschine Concerto for trailer, op. 54296572390857
> 
> Universal Studios, Scherzo for trailer in Bb, K. 12398520395
> 
> ...


........... ok.


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## TonalDynamics (Sep 15, 2022)

Lionel Schmitt said:


> ........... ok.





Lionel Schmitt said:


> Universal (probably the biggest label or at least in the top) literally didn't have any trailer music and not much big epic stuff till a few years ago



I assumed you're talking about a trend of artists selling their own rights to their music on the cheap to fall into the umbrella of some 'catalog' owned by Warner, Universal, etc.?

Or have I misinterpreted the situation? (entirely possible)


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## Lionel Schmitt (Sep 15, 2022)

TonalDynamics said:


> I assume you're talking about a trend of artists selling their own rights to their music to fall into the umbrella of some 'catalog' owned by Warner, Universal, etc.?
> 
> Or have I misinterpreted the situation?


I was just making a general comment about productionmusic.

You seem to just describe the basic process of how productionmusic works. Which I think is fine depending on the deal. In fact productionmusic seems to be one of the very few fields where one can still make a living without going crazy when working for the right (successful) libraries.
Of course these can be tricky to find. I for instance heard some very underwhelming reports about Warner despite being or seeming like a top runner.


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## TonalDynamics (Sep 15, 2022)

Lionel Schmitt said:


> I was just making a general comment about productionmusic.
> In fact productionmusic seems to be one of the very few fields where one can still make a living without going crazy when working for the right (successful) libraries.
> Of course these can be tricky to find. I for instance heard some very underwhelming reports about Warner despite being or seeming like a top runner.


Mmm well I feel you there, I just hate to see any concerted effort by big studios to pinch up all the creative works of media composers for pennies on the dollar. Like I saw a post a few days ago here where one of our lads was talking about how he churns out 4 tracks a day so he can get enough of a profile to get more clicks... I honestly can't imagine anything more miserable than the 'grindyness' of that process.

But yeah Warner, Universal, etc., why make music when you can just own all the artists, eh? This has always been their take of course but it pains me to see it worming its slimy tentacles into the orchestral domain. I've not dealt much at all with lib. music side of the business though, full disclosure -- I've just seen a lot of posts here on the topic and most of them make me sad.

Just another one of my principled rants, you're perfectly safe to ignore me.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Sep 15, 2022)

TonalDynamics said:


> Mmm well I feel you there, I just hate to see any concerted effort by big studios to pinch up all the creative works of media composers for pennies on the dollar. Like I saw a post a few days ago here where one of our lads was talking about how he churns out 4 tracks a day so he can get enough of a profile to get more clicks... I honestly can't imagine anything more miserable than the 'grindyness' of that process.
> 
> But yeah Warner, Universal, etc., why make music when you can just own all the artists, eh? This has always been their take of course but it pains me to see it worming its slimy tentacles into the orchestral domain. I've not dealt much at all with lib. music side of the business though, full disclosure -- I've just seen a lot of posts here on the topic and most of them make me sad.
> 
> Just another one of my principled rants, you're perfectly safe to ignore me.


what's the better option though? I hate the idea if literally any music branch except librarymusic where I'm not enslaved to some everchanging media thing and can just write music, with degrees of freedom reaching from rather high to about decent and lot of variety.

There are people who make about 80-100 thousand bucks a year just from library music with 200-500 tracks or so IN TOTAL, not per year.
It's like any other branch - you can fail or succeed at it. Nothing inherently great or bad about it.
It depends on the circumstances.
With library music it's at least fairly transparent. 
One could ask around which libraries are worth working for from others experiences and get a good idea of concrete addresses with concrete results. And some publishers still check their submission mails so there is also often a chance of getting in when it's the stuff they look for.


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## Akarin (Sep 15, 2022)

They do accept that kind of cues. But they still need to have certain structures, like ABA for example, and contain sync points. Ultimately, the goal is to make the life of a video editor easier so freeform compositions tend to be not used that much.


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## Roger Newton (Sep 16, 2022)

What's a sync library and what's a scoring cue?


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 16, 2022)

Akarin said:


> They do accept that kind of cues. But they still need to have certain structures, like ABA for example, and contain sync points. Ultimately, the goal is to make the life of a video editor easier so freeform compositions tend to be not used that much.


Thanks mate


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 16, 2022)

Roger Newton said:


> What's a sync library and what's scoring cue?


Sync music library that places your music on the media. I should mention underscoring cue, not scoring. That type of soft and sentimental music that makes use of just piano, pads or cello for instance and somehow free of specific structure. This is how I view them. However, terms can be used interchangeably in this industry.


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## TonalDynamics (Sep 16, 2022)

Lionel Schmitt said:


> what's the better option though?



Well yeah I don't doubt that it's a decent revenue stream -- if one plays their cards right, as you say.

I just wonder how long even that will last when lib. music guys are gradually accepting more and more raw deals, and 'pricing themselves out of business' so to speak. Gotta value yourself.

There is a comfortable mid-ground to be struck there somewhere probably, but also I guess what I'm saying is it's a dangerous move when you allow yourself to enter the 'grind' of quantity over quality, and it can do things to you as an artist psychologically that greatly increases your chance of burnout, becoming jaded, etc.

Bringing greater awareness to those companies who _aren't _dealing fairly with their artists though is crucial, so I think those threads are very important ones.

Cheers


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## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 16, 2022)

MeloKeyz said:


> hmmmm got your point Jeremy but why are they giving out a direct submission link? As @NekujaK said, it won't hurt to submit to both direct and to their labels. I just need to spend some time listening to their labels to get what they exactly want.


By all means, go ahead and submit directly, you just never know of course. But make sure your track is stellar, ready to grab their attention within the first 10 seconds of the cue.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Sep 16, 2022)

TonalDynamics said:


> Well yeah I don't doubt that it's a decent revenue stream -- if one plays their cards right, as you say.
> 
> I just wonder how long even that will last when lib. music guys are gradually accepting more and more raw deals, and 'pricing themselves out of business' so to speak. Gotta value yourself.
> 
> ...


yea, it's certainly important to bring awareness about lackluster deals and treatment to the light.
I just don't like generalizations in that regard since it can be both a dream and a nightmare so it's crucial to be differentiated and not just put down "library music" etc.


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## NekujaK (Sep 16, 2022)

TonalDynamics said:


> I just wonder how long even that will last when lib. music guys are gradually accepting more and more raw deals, and 'pricing themselves out of business' so to speak. Gotta value yourself.


*THE SAD TRUTH*

In any creative field, there will always be folks who are desperate to get their foot in the door in exchange for far less compensation than they're worth. This is an age old syndrome that isn't limited to just library music.

Not only is it rampant in the film scoring world, but the history of pop music is littered with sad stories of artists who, either knowingly or unknowingly, signed terribly exploitive deals just to get a shot at music stardom.

*THE GOOD STUFF*

As @Lionel Schmitt alluded, library music is one of the more consistent and reliable ways for composers to earn money from their craft. There aren't a lot of alternatives out there: well-paying film/TV scoring gigs are very limited in number and tend to gravitate to the same pool of composers, and there aren't many benefactors commissioning symphonies these days, so library music is a blessing to many composers who hope to earn some money with their music.

*PUTTING THINGS IN PERSPECTIVE*

Make no mistake about it, library music is not high art. It's a purely commercial venture - it's called "production music" for a reason. But at least it's music.

I have a friend who is a fine artist, but she only sells maybe one or two canvasses a year. To pay the rent and put food on the table, she could work as a secretary in an office, serve coffee at Starbucks, or maybe be a waitress. But instead, she works as a lowly graphic artist for an ad agency, cranking out whatever they tell her to crank out - it's not fine art, but at least she's getting paid for using her creative talents. Does she deserve to get paid a lot more? Absolutely! But if she walks away from this job, there are a hundred eager people waiting in line to take it. She simply can't afford to quit on principle.

*THE REALLY HORRIBLE TRUTH*

Now as far as library music, and music licensing in general, is concerned, I will say this. It is one of the worst run businesses I've ever seen:

There are no standards - sync fees and royalty rates vary from deal to deal (my understanding is Europe has standardized fees, but not in the USA).
There are millions of dollars in royalty payments each year that never make it into composer's and publisher's hands because the PRO system is completely broken, and composers have absolutely no leverage.
The reporting and tracking of placements is completely opaque with composers at the mercy of clients, publishers, and libraries to reliably report placements and/or submit cue sheets. The fact that I have to use services like Tunesat or Trqk to keep tabs on my placements is shameful.

*THE REALITY*

IMHO, the entire music licensing business needs to be torn down to the studs and rebuilt properly to ensure full transparency and accountability throughout the entire system. But that's never going to happen in my lifetime, so in the meantime, the system works well enough to at least put some money into composers' pockets and we do what we can to make the best of a less than ideal situation - which is pretty much what all of life is about anyway


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## Roger Newton (Sep 16, 2022)

MeloKeyz said:


> Sync music library that places your music on the media. I should mention underscoring cue, not scoring. That type of soft and sentimental music that makes use of just piano, pads or cello for instance and somehow free of specific structure. This is how I view them. However, terms can be used interchangeably in this industry.


So sync libraries are the same as any other library who place music on the media.

And by the sound of it, score music is basically underscoring cues.

When you do a library track , you'll probably (but not necessarily) have to cut the tracks up into 10 second stings, 30 second and 60 second cues along with the track as a whole too. Then there are the underscore versions. And some libraries (my library for example) also like to include stems.

So suddenly, your one track on an album of say 12 tracks, becomes 5 or 6 tracks plus stems. And when you multiply that by 12, you can see the possibilities for music editors.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Sep 16, 2022)

NekujaK said:


> *T *
> 
> Make no mistake about it, library music is not high art. It's a purely commercial venture - it's called "production music" for a reason. But at least it's music.


Great post!
But this is very triggering :D
It's not a purely commercial venture unless one approaches it as a purely commercial venture.
There are quite a bunch of labels who are more open for artistic approaches to the point of some composers feeling more like doing an artist project than productionmusic.
I also put so much personal energy and inspiration in my tracks and routinely forget it's production-music  It's almost impossible for me to just "do my job" XD Keep turning it into personal projects.
Actually my most successful track is one where I didn't think for a minute about end usage and it's not really sounding like typical librarymusic.
Don't have that much to compare to since I'm chaotic with my "job" but at least it seems to work.

That's what I love about it. Not only can it pay out when writing for the right labels, the right tracks etc but it can also be possible to *relatively* personal/artistic stuff.

I've been listening to productionmusic more than other music so far actually and lately when listening through a major "neo-classical" playlist with mostly non-productionmusic I'd say most of it could have been published in a lot of good productionmusic labels.
So unless one means to write 10 minute hybrid monster tracks (which still could be published.... somewhere in librarymusic) there isn't a huge difference. Except the pay. :D


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## NekujaK (Sep 16, 2022)

Lionel Schmitt said:


> Great post!
> But this is very triggering :D
> It's not a purely commercial venture unless one approaches it as a purely commercial venture.
> There are quite a bunch of labels who are more open for artistic approaches to the point of some composers feeling more like doing an artist project than productionmusic.
> ...


Fair point, and I think it's really great that you're able to get creative personal satisfaction from library music. Definitely the best of all worlds.

For me, library music comes from a different place internally than music I make for personal creative expression. Musical creativity is required for both, but the process and outcomes are completely different for me.

Library music has a single functional purpose - to get placements, so that's what I focus on. Personal creative music is all about self-expression, which in my case, is not very likely to get placed anywhere


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 16, 2022)

Roger Newton said:


> When you do a library track , you'll probably (but not necessarily) have to cut the tracks up into 10 second stings, 30 second and 60 second cues along with the track as a whole too. Then there are the underscore versions. And some libraries (my library for example) also like to include stems.
> 
> So suddenly, your one track on an album of say 12 tracks, becomes 5 or 6 tracks plus stems. And when you multiply that by 12, you can see the possibilities for music editors.


This is a stage that I haven't reached yet. I heard about making versions of each track (perc only, without choir,..etc) but never heard about 10 sec stings or 30 and 60 sec cues. Defo learned something today! I am still in the submission phase  But let me ask you, when does all this take place? Is it when a track gets placed or when? Is the publisher (library) getting back to you asking you to prepare all this?


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## NekujaK (Sep 16, 2022)

MeloKeyz said:


> This is a stage that I haven't reached yet. I heard about making versions of each track (perc only, without choir,..etc) but never heard about 10 sec stings or 30 and 60 sec cues. Defo learned something today! I am still in the submission phase  But let me ask you, when does all this take place? Is it when a track gets placed or when? Is the publisher (library) getting back to you asking you to prepare all this?


It's part of the final music package you deliver to the library for publication. I haven't had to do 10 sec cutdowns, but I do deliver 30 and 60 sec cutdowns. Also an underscore version, which is basically the piece without melodic components. Most libraries also want stems.


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 16, 2022)

NekujaK said:


> Make no mistake about it, library music is not high art. It's a purely commercial venture - it's called "production music" for a reason. But at least it's music.


I don't fully agree with that specific paragraph my man. Aren't we all writing production music in an artistic fashion anyway? I mean we don't hire bots to write them for us just because we need to export them to libraries ASAP, right? 

Like Lionel, I also approach my music with a sense of artistry.

EDIT: Even if I write based on what a library wants, I still approach any project with art


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 16, 2022)

NekujaK said:


> It's part of the final music package you deliver to the library for publication. I haven't had to do 10 sec cutdowns, but I do deliver 30 and 60 sec cutdowns. Also an underscore version, which is basically the piece without melodic components. Most libraries also want stems.


Publication here means catalog listing? or placement?


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## NekujaK (Sep 16, 2022)

MeloKeyz said:


> Publication here means catalog listing? or placement?


Catalog listing.


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 16, 2022)

NekujaK said:


> Catalog listing.


Wow! but Crucial didn't ask me any trimmed version or stems or anything. Just a final 16 bit wav file for publication :(


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## NekujaK (Sep 16, 2022)

MeloKeyz said:


> I don't fully agree with that specific paragraph my man. Aren't we all writing production music in an artistic fashion anyway? I mean we don't hire bots to write them for us just because we need to export them to libraries ASAP, right?
> 
> Like Lionel, I also approach my music with a sense of artistry.
> 
> EDIT: Even I write based on what a library wants, I still approach any project with art


I hear you, and of course artistry and creativity are always involved - they absolutely have to be. But library music exists for one purpose: to make money. It doesn't need to be a masterwork to get placed.

And when you need to start cranking out lots of tracks to meet release deadlines, the luxury of engaging with your inner creative muse to express your inner feelings through your music goes out the window.


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## NekujaK (Sep 16, 2022)

MeloKeyz said:


> Wow! but Crucial didn't ask me any trimmed version or stems or anything. Just a final 16 bit wav file for publication :(


Crucial is a music licensor, not really a library. The distiction is subtle, but Crucial is more akin to someone like Heavy Hitters, who just license whole songs.

Maybe someone else can chime in and explain the differences in more detail.


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 16, 2022)

NekujaK said:


> And when you need to start cranking out lots of tracks to meet release deadlines, the luxury of engaging with your inner creative muse to express your inner feelings through your music goes out the window.


But no deadlines with production music, you just write in your own pace and submit when finished. I think you mean scoring gigs, right? To be honest, I prefer more to be a free production music writer than working in big studios and be slave to deadlines. I never faced such thing called deadline in music until now.


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 16, 2022)

NekujaK said:


> Maybe someone else can chime in and explain the differences in more detail.


Shout out to @jcrosby  He's the Crucial man


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## NekujaK (Sep 16, 2022)

MeloKeyz said:


> But no deadlines with production music, you just write in your own pace and submit when finished. I think you mean scoring gigs, right? To be honest, I prefer more to be a free production music writer than working in big studios and be slave to deadlines. I never faced such thing called deadline in music until now.


Production music can have deadlines, too. Many libraries have a fixed schedule of release dates for new music. If you miss a submission deadline, then your music will have to wait until the next release window, which depending on the library, could be as much as 6 weeks.

It's not the end of the world, and you can certainly take your time and compose at your own pace, but the best way to increase your opportunuties for earning licensing revenue is to have as many tracks as possible out there. So there's incentive to produce more music as often as you can.

And don't forget, when you make money, the library does too, so they want composers who are prolific and can work fast, while still creating quality music.


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 16, 2022)

NekujaK said:


> Production music can have deadlines, too. Many libraries have a fixed schedule of release dates for new music. If you miss a submission deadline, then your music will have to wait until the next release window, which depending on the library, could be as much as 6 weeks.


You're not gonna believe what's just happened now! As I am reading your quoted paragraph, I just received a request email from Epitome asking for a music for a client, as I subscribed to their newsletter. Deadline is 21st  

So, as we speak, I just saw a practical example of library's deadline haha what a coincidence! I guess this what you're talking about. From time to time, libraries shout for new music for clients with deadline.


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## jcrosby (Sep 16, 2022)

MeloKeyz said:


> You're not gonna believe what's just happened now! As I am reading your quoted paragraph, I just received a request email from Epitome asking for a music for a client, as I subscribed to their newsletter. Deadline is 21st
> 
> So, as we speak, I just saw a practical example of library's deadline haha what a coincidence! I guess this what you're talking about. From time to time, libraries shout for new music for clients with deadline.


You should go for it. I did a handful of tracks for them something like 9 years ago. They're a small library that placed my music in a handful of reality TV shows.

Although they're not a library you'll earn a ton from, (and frankly one where tracks can, and most likely will sit), at the same time there's also no better way to learn than by diving in head 1st and starting with a small library that you can learn where it is that you need to improve before approaching larger ones... Ben's pretty picky when critiquing tracks for an album so it'd be a good place to cut your teeth on. Plus writing to a tight deadline like that is a lesson you can only learn by having to do it...


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## davidson (Sep 17, 2022)

MeloKeyz said:


> You're not gonna believe what's just happened now! As I am reading your quoted paragraph, I just received a request email from Epitome asking for a music for a client, as I subscribed to their newsletter. Deadline is 21st
> 
> So, as we speak, I just saw a practical example of library's deadline haha what a coincidence! I guess this what you're talking about. From time to time, libraries shout for new music for clients with deadline.


Awesome, good luck! Let us know how you get on.


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 17, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> Although they're not a library you'll earn a ton from, (and frankly one where tracks can, and most likely will sit), at the same time there's also no better way to learn than by diving in head 1st and starting with a small library that you can learn where it is that you need to improve before approaching larger ones... Ben's pretty picky when critiquing tracks for an album so it'd be a good place to cut your teeth on. Plus writing to a tight deadline like that is a lesson you can only learn by having to do it...


Yes, I am working on it. They asked for a bombastic sound design trailer, not orchestra involved, just pure synths. I've done couple of tracks in this style but always used orchestra. I'll try my luck and learn from this experience rather than gaining from it. Also, it's a very good chance to build relations in general if the track is cool but not selected. The guys there will know that you can write something and there's a hope in you


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 17, 2022)

davidson said:


> Awesome, good luck! Let us know how you get on.


Thanks man, will do!


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## NekujaK (Sep 17, 2022)

MeloKeyz said:


> Yes, I am working on it. They asked for a bombastic sound design trailer, not orchestra involved, just pure synths. I've done couple of tracks in this style but always used orchestra. I'll try my luck and learn from this experience rather than gaining from it. Also, it's a very good chance to build relations in general if the track is cool but not selected. The guys there will know that you can write something and there's a hope in you


I'm sure you already know this, but I thought it's worth mentioning just case... if you're stuck getting started or knowing what direction to take with the music because the style is unfamiliar, find some existing tracks to use as inspiration.

Places you can look are, of course music libraries, but also try searching YouTube and Soundcloud, including demo tracks for sample libraries that cater to trailer music and sound FX.

Good luck and have fun!


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 17, 2022)

NekujaK said:


> if you're stuck getting started or knowing what direction to take with the music because the style is unfamiliar, find some existing tracks to use as inspiration.


Thanks for sharing the direction mate. Luckily, they sent 4 references as basis to get inspiration. When I need more, RSM is king in this style. I wrote the intro and act 1 today but completely lost focus on act 2 and the rest. I will proceed tomorrow. The truth is that listening to other tracks for inspiration doesn't help much because the sound of these tracks still in your head while imagining your own. I can say they help only 60%

What I got myself into?


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## NekujaK (Sep 17, 2022)

MeloKeyz said:


> Thanks for sharing the direction mate. Luckily, they sent 4 references as basis to get inspiration. When I need more, RSM is king in this style. I wrote the intro and act 1 today but completely lost focus on act 2 and the rest. I will proceed tomorrow. The truth is that listening to other tracks for inspiration doesn't help much because the sound of these tracks still in your head while imagining your own. I can say they help only 60%
> 
> What I got myself into?


Okay, it's good that they sent some examples - I find that's always the most efficient way to communicate what someone wants musically. This is particularly true when scoring a film and working with a director who isn't versant in music, which is most of them  . Instead of going round and round trying to decipher what they mean by "more moody" or "slightly introspective", just play me an example track, please. Works every time. But I digress... I'm sure you're cooking up something great!


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 17, 2022)

NekujaK said:


> Okay, it's good that they sent some examples - I find that's always the most efficient way to communicate what someone wants musically. This is particularly true when scoring a film and working with a director who isn't versant in music, which is most of them  . Instead of going round and round trying to decipher what they mean by "more moody" or "slightly introspective", just play me an example track, please. Works every time. But I digress... I'm sure you're cooking up something great!


True because, unlike directors, obviously music libraries are composers so they understand where you're coming from and on top of that they want money from their businesses so they cut the chase, send examples/instructions and are more practical. 

I never worked with directors of course in my life but the way I see them, they seem don't care if he/she replaces you fast because they have the budget to do that and there're an army of composers wish to work with them and you must catch what they say quickly and treat it like a bible. They need profit too but a movie's deadline can wait for a year or so. 

Libraries have clients to feed faster.

Thanks for the encouragement my man, I am sure I am burning what I cooked hahaha


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## NekujaK (Sep 17, 2022)

MeloKeyz said:


> True because, unlike directors, obviously music libraries are composers so they understand where you're coming from and on top of that they want money from their businesses so they cut the chase, send examples/instructions and are more practical.


Yup, libraries are usually quite efficient in communicating exactly what they need. And if they're trying to satisfy a particular client, they often have example tracks the client already likes, so it makes it easier all around.



MeloKeyz said:


> I never worked with directors of course in my life but the way I see them, they seem don't care if he/she replaces you fast because they have the budget to do that and there're an army of composers wish to work with them and you must catch what they say quickly and treat it like a bible. They need profit too but a movie's deadline can wait for a year or so.


I've worked on three film scores, so far (small indie projects, but with ample music budgets), and the process has gone the smoothest when the director has done their homework and seeded the film with at least a few temp tracks. It removes a lot of ambiguity that's introduced when people try to use words to describe musical concepts.

And yeah, like you say, if you can't quickly hook into what they want, you're definitely expendable  

Anyway, sorry for the tangent... wishing you the best with your new creation!


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## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 17, 2022)

MeloKeyz said:


> They need profit too but a movie's deadline can wait for a year or so.


Not necessarily. I’ve done two feature-lengths, and I had about three weeks to score each one. Music is usually one of the last elements in the process because the film is locked in.


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## NekujaK (Sep 17, 2022)

I forget which film, maybe "Man Of Steel", but Hans Zimmer related a story that when the studio delivered the picture locked version to him, he had two weeks to write and record the entire score. Meanwhile, across the street from his studios was a giant billboard advertising the film's release date. No pressure


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## jcrosby (Sep 17, 2022)

MeloKeyz said:


> Thanks for sharing the direction mate. Luckily, they sent 4 references as basis to get inspiration. When I need more, RSM is king in this style. I wrote the intro and act 1 today but completely lost focus on act 2 and the rest. I will proceed tomorrow. The truth is that listening to other tracks for inspiration doesn't help much because the sound of these tracks still in your head while imagining your own. I can say they help only 60%
> 
> What I got myself into?


If you feel lost on act 2 that's when it's a good idea to listen to the references again. It gives you a clear example of the tone and vibe of what they want, which in terms of production music is usually somewhat, if not fairly literal.


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 18, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> If you feel lost on act 2 that's when it's a good idea to listen to the references again. It gives you a clear example of the tone and vibe of what they want, which in terms of production music is usually somewhat, if not fairly literal.


I finished the track and posted it in member compositions  Thanks mate


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## MeloKeyz (Sep 18, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Not necessarily. I’ve done two feature-lengths, and I had about three weeks to score each one. Music is usually one of the last elements in the process because the film is locked in.


Good to know that. So because it's the last element in the process, the time is getting tight and short. Logical


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## MusiquedeReve (Nov 29, 2022)

NekujaK said:


> It's part of the final music package you deliver to the library for publication. I haven't had to do 10 sec cutdowns, but I do deliver 30 and 60 sec cutdowns. Also an underscore version, which is basically the piece without melodic components. Most libraries also want stems.


Hoping you can help me to understand what a "cutdown" is - I have SA Hammers and some of the loops are labeled as "cutdowns" and I notice they tend to stray off the downbeat -- appreciate it if you can tell me what a cutdown is as my Google skills are apparently not up to snuff - thank you


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## GtrString (Nov 29, 2022)

NekujaK said:


> *THE REALLY HORRIBLE TRUTH*
> 
> Now as far as library music, and music licensing in general, is concerned, I will say this. It is one of the worst run businesses I've ever seen:
> 
> ...


At least the blues lawyers will get new opportunities to sue in the future, when the tools to track everything, everywhere is ready. Should happen within the next decade. Then there will be roasted toast on the tables. Surprised they dare this type of mismanagement, as the boomerang may hit back under the belt. They must be very smooth criminals..


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## NekujaK (Nov 29, 2022)

MusiquedeReve said:


> Hoping you can help me to understand what a "cutdown" is - I have SA Hammers and some of the loops are labeled as "cutdowns" and I notice they tend to stray off the downbeat -- appreciate it if you can tell me what a cutdown is as my Google skills are apparently not up to snuff - thank you


In terms of library music, "cutdowns" are simply shorter versions of the same composition. So if a full track is say 2:30 long, libraries will typically want a 30-second and a 60-second version of the same piece. This makes it easy for clients to drop the music into a commercial or promo, which typically run no more than 60 seconds. 10-second and 15-second cutdowns are also sometimes requested.

Each cutdown version should be its own standalone work, so ideally, it'll have a beginning, middle, and end. Obviously that's not always possible because of the short length, but it should at least feel complete on its own.

I think this same principle is being applied to the loops in Hammers. For example, the first key in a loop group plays a full 8-bar loop, but the remaining keys in that group only play 1 or 2-bar slices of that loop. At least that's how it seems to me.

Hope that helps.


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## NekujaK (Nov 29, 2022)

GtrString said:


> At least the blues lawyers will get new opportunities to sue in the future, when the tools to track everything, everywhere is ready. Should happen within the next decade. Then there will be roasted toast on the tables. Surprised they dare this type of mismanagement, as the boomerang may hit back under the belt. They must be very smooth criminals..


I hope you're right! I'm not so optimistic myself. While the tracking and reporting tools are definitely improving, enormous mountains will need to be moved to overhaul the music licensing system as a whole, if for no other reason than the many different parties and agencies involved that are required to keep the machine running, from government agencies to music licensors to PROs to artists. It's a big convoluted ecosystem, and to affect meaningful change, all areas must addressed, which is no small task.

That said, I do think incremental changes and improvements will continue to occur, and improved tracking capabilities that are available to everyone is the first significant step.


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## MusiquedeReve (Nov 29, 2022)

NekujaK said:


> In terms of library music, "cutdowns" are simply shorter versions of the same composition. So if a full track is say 2:30 long, libraries will typically want a 30-second and a 60-second version of the same piece. This makes it easy for clients to drop the music into a commercial or promo, which typically run no more than 60 seconds. 10-second and 15-second cutdowns are also sometimes requested.
> 
> Each cutdown version should be its own standalone work, so ideally, it'll have a beginning, middle, and end. Obviously that's not always possible because of the short length, but it should at least feel complete on its own.
> 
> ...


Thank you - that cleared things up for me - I very much appreciate it


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