# Stormzy should replace Mozart in UK music classrooms, study says



## KallumS (May 22, 2019)

Came across this story: https://news.sky.com/story/stormzy-should-replace-mozart-in-uk-music-classrooms-study-says-11725859

National charity Youth Music has suggested that Stormzy should replace Mozart in modern curriculums, as well as introducing other types of modern music (Grime & Rap from the sounds of it).

I personally think that modernisation would be good, but Grime, Rap, Trap, Techno, House, etc aren't the answer. Students need something rich in theory to dig into, such as Film Music or Jazz.

What do you think?


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## Gerbil (May 22, 2019)

KallumS said:


> Came across this story: https://news.sky.com/story/stormzy-should-replace-mozart-in-uk-music-classrooms-study-says-11725859
> 
> National charity Youth Music has suggested that Stormzy should replace Mozart in modern curriculums, as well as introducing other types of modern music (Grime & Rap from the sounds of it).
> 
> ...



They already cover those styles (albeit superficially). The drive here is to appeal to kids who have switched off from learning.

Unfortunately, education is in a poor state in the UK with schools excluding kids with problems just so they can drive up their performance targets and the thirst for arts dangerously drying up. Encouraging kids to express themselves via their favourite style of music is a really good idea on many levels.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 22, 2019)

Using non-music to make more pupils engaged in music lessions isn't gonna make a lot of sense.


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## Gerbil (May 22, 2019)

So rap music.....isn't music?


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 22, 2019)

Gerbil said:


> So rap music.....isn't music?



It's music in the same sense as spanking and forced labour are educational methods.


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## KallumS (May 22, 2019)

Gerbil said:


> They already cover those styles (albeit superficially). The drive here is to appeal to kids who have switched off from learning.
> 
> Unfortunately, education is in a poor state in the UK with schools excluding kids with problems just so they can drive up their performance targets and the thirst for arts dangerously drying up. Encouraging kids to express themselves via their favourite style of music is a really good idea on many levels.



But what about the kids that aren't switched off from learning, could this potentially switch them off?

I agree about kids expressing themselves via their favourite style of music, but Rap/ Grime is not everyone's favourite style of music. What if a kid likes Mozart? Or Metal?

I just don't see what can be taught with a Stormzy song. Rhythm, I guess, and lyrics, but certainly not orchestration, counterpoint, harmony, etc.


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## Parsifal666 (May 22, 2019)

This made my morning. Idiotic. 

But whatever, that's the state of...uh, music today. 

Instead of replacing Mozart, how about simply starting a class for (forgot his name already...if it's a he). 

Or...I dunno, I throw my hands up.


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## Parsifal666 (May 22, 2019)

Don't mind me, I can't name a single song by Jay-Z, Beyoncé, Half Cent, Dippy, Usher...don't want to. Same old stuff with a younger face and apropos fashion sense/video.


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## Stanoli (May 22, 2019)

Jerry Garcia from the Grateful Dead has the answer:


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 22, 2019)

poetd said:


> There's some good in there Parsifal666. It's not all terrible.
> 
> However, moving classes to Stormzy over Mozart though is more about moving from studying Music to studying Modern Culture - which aren't the same things.
> 
> ...



Yeah, exactly. These attempts to be more in line with contemporary and youngster culture, and attract the youth with phony and shallow affirmations of their current interests are always so ridiculous. It reminds me of those pathetic church and religious type's campaigns to show kids that God is cool too.

Music is music. Whether a (post)millenial idiot is interested in it or not. You can't chase/stay on top of youth culture. It changes every 2 months. You go out there thiking you're cool because you're able to pronounce "Skrillex" right and they laugh at you like you're the biggest moron ever and "so 2014".

There's a reason why some things are unfading and _have_ stood the test of time. Education and culture should focus on that.


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## Gerbil (May 22, 2019)

I don't think they're advocating removing musical styles will be excluded but rather making sure that the net is cast wider. Like I said, education is in a bad place here and anything that can keep pupils in school and engaged is worth pursuing.

I'm no fan or rap or grime but I've got to say that some of you guys come across as philistines.


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## Gerbil (May 22, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Yeah, exactly. These attempts to be more in line with contemporary and youngster culture, and attract the youth with phony and shallow affirmations of their current interests are always so ridiculous. It reminds me of those pathetic church and religious type's campaigns to show kids that God is cool too.
> 
> Music is music. *Whether a (post)millenial idiot is interested in it or not.* You can't chase/stay on top of youth culture. It changes every 2 months. You go out there thiking you're cool because you're able to pronounce "Skrillex" right and they laugh at you like you're the biggest moron ever and "so 2014".
> 
> There's a reason why some things are unfading and _have_ stood the test of time. Education and culture should focus on that.



This is partly about helping troubled inner-city teenagers, frequently from broken homes, many of whom seem to get sucked up into county lines drug rings and what not (you'll need to do a bit of research on that).


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## Jimmy Hellfire (May 22, 2019)

Gerbil said:


> This is partly about helping troubled inner-city teenagers, frequently from broken homes, many of whom seem to get sucked up into county lines drug rings and what not (you'll need to do a bit of research on that).



Well whatever. It's not relevant to the discussion. Programs for troubled youth are one thing, musical education another. Rap still sucks and faking acknowledgement of youth culture is still a fool's errand.


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## Parsifal666 (May 22, 2019)

Gerbil said:


> some of you guys come across as philistines.



Cracking up. You come across like Warner Bros. cartoon. No offense, it's just the way you worded it.

Most of the music I hear today sounds like it was made by Philistines, so I guess we fit right in.


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## stixman (May 22, 2019)

Music just has to move people..connect....uplift....elevate....Rap along with a myriad of other styles of music are equally valid imo


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## chimuelo (May 22, 2019)

Music is organized sound, calling a genre you might not like non music is a contradiction in terms.
I see no need to exclude anything.
Imagine the challenge of scoring those Zippered Hit hats and Deep Bass Glides.

FWIW I’m classically trained, but jazz and all other genres I choose to learn because it wasn’t available.
I could teach a class myself saving people days and weeks of time.
How to use half speed apps for transcribing solos, etc.

Call it Woodshedding # 101.


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## wst3 (May 22, 2019)

it is true that music simply needs to move people, but the topic is music education. And removing Mozart, or any of the classics would be a mistake.

Turning students off from music? Are they kidding? When I was a student the primary focus in music class was the classics, with some attention paid to jazz, big band, and (dare I say it?) even a moment or two on pop.

That didn't turn us off. We still started bands in garages, and we still enjoyed music classes.

When we hit junior high they even introduced guitar classes - these were only once a week, while regular music class was three times a week. Still, pretty progressive<G>!

In high school things really went crazy - we had a jazz band for which one could audition. We had an orchestra, we had a concert band, a marching band, and even pit bands. We also had a concert choir and an elite choir. Maybe competition wasn'f fierce, but it was there<G>!

I have no problem with presenting more styles, including RAP, Techno, whatever, I do have a big problem with getting rid of Mozart.


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## stixman (May 22, 2019)

Who is Mozart!...only kidding...runs for exit


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## Parsifal666 (May 22, 2019)

If they're going to make a substitute for Wolfie they could at least opt for Beethoven or Mahler. Or Jerry Goldsmith


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## Zero&One (May 22, 2019)

I heard this on Classic FM this morning, so you can imagine their feeling.

I mentioned classical music at work, it was met with groans and "here he is, dusty old instrument farty pants"
I left it an hour... played Game of Thrones, the HZ "Time" on the laptop. Not one moan.

Schools need to change their approach, not our musical geniuses.


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## Stanoli (May 22, 2019)

Years ago I bought the Mozart Complete Edition.
The music is on 170 CDs, which he composed within 30 years.
Unbelievable polyphonic music he wrote everything with his own hands, Operas, Piano concertos, Symphonies, you name it.

For the same amount of music it took Bach (153 CDs) 50 years.

And who the fuck is Stormzy???


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## Parsifal666 (May 22, 2019)

Stanoli said:


> Years ago I bought the Mozart Complete Edition.
> The music is on 170 CDs, which he composed within 30 years.
> Unbelievable polyphonic music he wrote everything with his own hands, Operas, Piano concertos, Symphonies, you name it.
> 
> ...


It's not the amount of music...lol. In some ways Bach was the greater composer, he was certainly less tied to pre-existent compositional templates. His music was hugely influential on Herr Mozart, particularly on the latter composer's later works.


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## Stanoli (May 22, 2019)

...see thread title...

I was more referring to the difference of musical potency between Mozart and contemporary Popartists.

I hear more Haydn in Mozart than Bach and I think that his staggering amount of created music also implicates importance. 

But I understand, to discuss it this way can be a bit overwhelming.


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## MartinH. (May 22, 2019)

I had a mandatory music course in school for a couple of years and I absolutely hated it! Only class where I ever got an F in a test too I think. I opted out as soon as I could. I only gained an interest in making music when I came into contact with metal genres.

You'll never have a class that is homogenous enough to interest everyone in the same genre. But I'm 100% in favor of replacing Mozart and Beethoven in those classes with Holst and Williams and showing how the planets and Star Wars connect, and doing all the theory in context of actual composing examples instead of in a vacuum. The theory stuff we covered back then actually went further in part than what I know today, it's just that I understood almost nothing of it back then and it all only clicked once I was making music myself. Today with most theory things that I learn I have an experience of "so that's what that was that I didn't understand back then". Something like guitar pro or fruity loops would have engaged me 100 times more with music and theory than what was covered at my school...


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## Akarin (May 22, 2019)




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## Loïc D (May 22, 2019)

They tried this in France 20 years ago by introducing pop & early hip hop.
Some classes had budget synths to replace the good old recorder.

Well, the musical level has not increased much.

Now they’re back to classical with a bit of pop music too.
Whatever the music, most scholars are just not motivated.


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## NoamL (May 22, 2019)

stixman said:


> Music just has to move people..connect....uplift....elevate....Rap along with a myriad of other styles of music are equally valid imo



You got your head on straight! 



chimuelo said:


> How to use half speed apps for transcribing solos, etc.



Hahahaha! I used to do this with John Williams pieces ... I used Audacity to slow down his fast string runs and harp glissandos and try to figure out what scales he was using.


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## NoamL (May 22, 2019)

People in this thread: "Rap is just talking with a beat. Rhythm & noise without pitch content isn't music"

Steve Reich:


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## jbuhler (May 22, 2019)

poetd said:


> I realise most kids today will never play an instrument nor have any interest in one unless it's connected to a PS4 and has buttons instead of strings.


You know where kids still routinely learn to play instruments? In communities with strong (American) football traditions. Part of that tradition is having a marching band. Tail waving the dog, perhaps, but traditional music instruction is still valued in those places. I don’t blame the video games or those playing them. If I’m going to assign blame, it would be a world that doesn’t want to invest in or reward musical training. (And, no, that training doesn’t have to be classical training.)


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## Stanoli (May 22, 2019)

Flamenco without guitars isn`t music, even if it is from Steve Reich.


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## chimuelo (May 22, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> You know where kids still routinely learn to play instruments? In communities with strong (American) football traditions. Part of that tradition is having a marching band. Tail waving the dog, perhaps, but traditional music instruction is still valued in those places. I don’t blame the video games or those playing them. If I’m going to assign blame, it would be a world that doesn’t want to invest in or reward musical training. (And, no, that training doesn’t have to be classical training.)



Interesting point but China and the USA lead in the amount of classical teachers, with Japan in third.
Oddly enough the comments in relation to why is because of the discipline and coordination. Second of course was traditional.

For me it was just normal to study music, martial arts and sports from Kindergarten forward.

Comprehension, coordination, appreciation and chops up the ying yang.
And I help write rap freestyle and hip hop with my son and his merry gang of rappers.

You get one set of ears and one life.
Enjoy the pursuit of happiness.
If rap annoys, you’d probably really suck at it so do what makes you happy.

When Im angry or miserable Im write with dissonance.
Since Im always happy I just go to Fox, CNN, or talk to my x wife so I can get pissed off enough for minor 2nds and major 7 9 flat 10ths.


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## Parsifal666 (May 23, 2019)

NoamL said:


> People in this thread: "Rap is just talking with a beat. Rhythm & noise without pitch content isn't music"
> 
> Steve Reich:




There's a piece by John Cage that trumps even that for anti-music. That doesn't mean all of their repertoire is like that, in fact they're two of the best music composers of the last century.

I think what was originally meant is that Rap is basically like Beat poetry with a real beat. Anything resembling music is typically sampled and/or so rudimentary as to rightfully be judged incidental. Just like Wagner attempted to prove that music had to be subservient to drama in his opera, thus in Rap music is secondary to the lyrics.

I have nothing against Rap/Hip Hop, though both it and Country Western music are the only two genres of music I never willingly listen to (and, to be honest, generally don't care for).

I think music (and in the case of most Pop, novelty) is there to be enjoyed by everyone, for any reason. Hell, I still listen to AC/DC and KISS now and again, and there's no great shakes going on there musically either (yeah, I know it could be argued they're relatively more musically involved than R/HH, but neither band nor R/HH move far away from four-chord-maximum template set by...hell, I want to say Chuck Berry, but I imagine folk/pop music goes back much farther with the template). Even the bands that proclaim progressivity in the Pop arena are most often just musicians showing off for other musicians.

*Listen and let listen.* Just don't try and convince me any of it is as relevant as Beethoven (but that's just me).


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## Jerry Growl (May 23, 2019)

Stormzy should replace Mozart in UK music classrooms, study says
...
Well there's all kind of studies these days. A long while back studies said it's would be a healthy thing for people to drink radio-active water. Took some time, but people finally concluded it wasn't.







Later on people started driving on leaded fuel. Studies were ordered by corporations to deny health issues https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/04/cosmos-neil-tyson-lead-industry-science-denial/

So when studies say "Stormzy should replace Mozart ", for me it tells much about the study itself.
I don't think this study has a purely educational objective. I think it's just another market strategy.
But of course it will take time for people to realize the error when falling for it.

Did you know there's studies that prove listening to Mozart makes you smarter? ... As mentioned before, there's all kind of studies...


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## toomanynotes (May 23, 2019)

KallumS said:


> Came across this story: https://news.sky.com/story/stormzy-should-replace-mozart-in-uk-music-classrooms-study-says-11725859
> 
> National charity Youth Music has suggested that Stormzy should replace Mozart in modern curriculums, as well as introducing other types of modern music (Grime & Rap from the sounds of it).
> 
> ...


If this is what is required, then why does it particularly need to be a certified music qualification? Everybody that listens to that stuff knows it inside out, so what is the point? Another disgusting dumbing down of society. Brings nothing new to the table. That’s what I think.


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## toomanynotes (May 23, 2019)

Gerbil said:


> I don't think they're advocating removing musical styles will be excluded but rather making sure that the net is cast wider. Like I said, education is in a bad place here and anything that can keep pupils in school and engaged is worth pursuing.
> 
> I'm no fan or rap or grime but I've got to say that some of you guys come across as philistines.


Trust me, most learners will take the course just to listen to the music. 
The amount of times I’ve heard kids beg for this type of music to be played in a classroom just so they can nod, singalong to it..waste time..and it’s ‘always’ the disprutive types, disaffected types.


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## KallumS (May 23, 2019)

NoamL said:


> People in this thread: "Rap is just talking with a beat. Rhythm & noise without pitch content isn't music"
> 
> Steve Reich:




I went to a Steve Reich thing at the weekend, unfortunately I'm one of those that just doesn't get it  couldn't stay for the whole thing. They also played Terry Riley in C, I feel like I have a long way to go before I become part of that listenership. Maybe I'm just uncultured!


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## toomanynotes (May 23, 2019)

Gerbil said:


> They already cover those styles (albeit superficially). The drive here is to appeal to kids who have switched off from learning.
> 
> Unfortunately, education is in a poor state in the UK with schools excluding kids with problems just so they can drive up their performance targets and the thirst for arts dangerously drying up. Encouraging kids to express themselves via their favourite style of music is a really good idea on many levels.


Agreed...it’s in a bad state. If kids don’t want to learn, they are not going to change for music. How about introducing social apps on mobile phones, that would do it! Leave music alone.


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## toomanynotes (May 23, 2019)

KallumS said:


> I went to a Steve Reich thing at the weekend, unfortunately I'm one of those that just doesn't get it  couldn't stay for the whole thing. They also played Terry Riley in C, I feel like I have a long way to go before I become part of that listenership. Maybe I'm just uncultured!


No you’re not. It can be dire sometimes.


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## Parsifal666 (May 23, 2019)

toomanynotes said:


> Trust me, most learners will take the course just to listen to the music.
> The amount of times I’ve heard kids beg for this type of music to be played in a classroom just so they can nod, singalong to it..waste time..and it’s ‘always’ the disprutive types, disaffected types.



It always has, always will.




Not that this is anymore "advanced" than hip hop or any other form of Pop.


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## toomanynotes (May 23, 2019)

Stanoli said:


> Years ago I bought the Mozart Complete Edition.
> The music is on 170 CDs, which he composed within 30 years.
> Unbelievable polyphonic music he wrote everything with his own hands, Operas, Piano concertos, Symphonies, you name it.
> 
> ...


Oh u swore! Moderator moderator! Help help! He swore...! I feel ill nauseated! 
I can tell you what Stormzy really is but ...it’s a bit harsh. C u next tuesday!


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## toomanynotes (May 23, 2019)

NoamL said:


> People in this thread: "Rap is just talking with a beat. Rhythm & noise without pitch content isn't music"
> 
> Steve Reich:



Who said Steve Reich was any good?


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## toomanynotes (May 23, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> It always has, always will.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But rap takes itself too seriously, everyone knows rock/metal is just pantomime? Surely all educated ppl agree on this. Rap brings nothing but famine and disease.


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## toomanynotes (May 23, 2019)

Blondie did the first successful rap cos she run out of melody, supposed to be a piss take, then Everyone who had a mouth and attitude jumped the wagon and made a career from it.


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## Parsifal666 (May 23, 2019)

toomanynotes said:


> But rap takes itself too seriously, everyone knows rock/metal is just pantomime? Surely all educated ppl agree on this. Rap brings nothing but famine and disease.



There are some pretty funny rap tunes (some more scatological than others). But I do sympathize with the idea that rap is more vérité than metal.

That said, metal got pretty serious itself back with the church burnings in Scandinavia circa 1991.

I thought Rapture was actually kinda fun. And I might be the biggest art music snob here.


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## Jerry Growl (May 23, 2019)

toomanynotes said:


> Blondie did the first successful rap cos she run out of melody, supposed to be a piss take, then Everyone who had a mouth and attitude jumped the wagon and made a career from it.


Didn't know that. I thought it was a Nazi invention in an attempt for mind control.


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## toomanynotes (May 23, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> There are some pretty funny rap tunes (some more scatological than others). But I do sympathize with the idea that rap is more vérité than metal.
> 
> That said, metal got pretty serious itself back with the church burnings in Scandinavia circa 1991.
> 
> I thought Rapture was actually kinda fun. And I might be the biggest art music snob here.


Helps when Blondie’s singing.


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## toomanynotes (May 23, 2019)

Jerry Growl said:


> Didn't know that. I thought it was a Nazi invention in an attempt for mind control.


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## Jerry Growl (May 23, 2019)

There's always proof for every theory somewhere...


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## MartinH. (May 23, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> That said, metal got pretty serious itself back with the church burnings in Scandinavia circa 1991.



If I recall correctly that was mainly one dude, and he has a youtube channel now.


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## Morning Coffee (May 23, 2019)

Rap has replaced Rock n Roll as rebellion music IMHO. When I do accidentally stumble across Rap & Hip Hop songs, I am sometimes pleasantly surprised by all the little melodies and hooks going on in the background, musically busy, and complex in it's own way. It's not all just rhythm and beats.



Just for a laugh, I've always liked this little catchy tune


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## Parsifal666 (May 23, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> If I recall correctly that was mainly one dude, and he has a youtube channel now.



There were several involved in the burnings (I was hugely into that stuff back then). There were also murders (one of which might have been a suicide), involving Burzum, Mayhem, and Emperor.

It's actually a really interesting development imo. The book Lords of Chaos (though not exactly objective) documents much of that time.


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## Parsifal666 (May 23, 2019)

Hip hop/dance music is mostly producer and engineer's music. They have so much to do with the final product it tends to eclipse the recording artist's input (even when the latter has a songwriting credit).

At least that's from my experience producing and engineering.

But I must respectfully bow out of this topic. I don't want to disparage music people like, music can and should be enjoyed by everyone. Doesn't matter the listener's taste...

as I mentioned before, I try to listen and let listen.


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## MartinH. (May 23, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> There were several involved in the burnings (I was hugely into that stuff back then). There were also murders (one of which might have been a suicide), involving Burzum, Mayhem, and Emperor.
> 
> It's actually a really interesting development imo. The book Lords of Chaos (though not exactly objective) documents much of that time.



You were into church burnings? Just kidding! Yeah, I probably got some of the details wrong and we'll never be certain of the real truth of what happend anyway.

They recently turned Lords of Chaos into a movie, which apparently is a complete joke and has none of the music from any of the bands involved, because they all told the makers of that movie to go fvck themselves...


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## wst3 (May 23, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> Hip hop/dance music is mostly producer and engineer's music. They have so much to do with the final product it tends to eclipse the recording artist's input (even when the latter has a songwriting credit).



This, by itself, does not disqualify a track from being musical, but it is a different set of talents, and I think (my experience anyway) that is one of the driving factors behind a general distrust/dislike of these genres.

Some might even argue that producers and engineers are in the drivers seat because the number of musicians (by conventional definition) is decreasing, or possibly that it is so difficult to master an instrument.

I'd argue that the challenge of mastering an instrument is part of the fun - but that is a separate topic.

There are good, and bad, examples of music in every genre. At least to the extent that one can judge these things.

Then there are tracks that offend a large (and vociferous) portion of the population. When I was a lad it was rock and roll, today it is HipHop and Rap and related styles.

Do these style offend to protest, or offend for the fun of it? Does it matter.

The one big difference - to me - is that while my buddies and I were "studying" rock and roll we were also studying the classics, and jazz/big band, and even film music. Today that seems to be changing. If I really were a curmudgeon (wait, am I?) I'd suggest a certain laziness on the part of the students.

And when I say studying rock and roll I am only half joking - while we had the Mickey Baker and Joe Pass books for jazz we had "Live at the Filmore", "4 Way Street" and too many others to mention for the rest of our studies. I mention those two because my friends and I spent countless hours dissecting them.


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## DerGeist (May 23, 2019)

As you may be able to tell by my avatar I'm a rap fan/producer (amongst other things). So, I think rap is music and can be as complicated and intricate or basic and mornic as you are willing to make it. The issue, from a music education standpoint, that I would have is that most rap (and most modern "popular music") isn't very harmonically varied, doesn't change much (keys, scales, chords, etc.) and most of it just goes until it ends without much happening other than layering on more sounds. There are a million exceptions to this less when you are dealing with mainstream rap/electronic music.

One of the challenges is that modern electronic music making tools allows anyone (musically trained or not) to quickly make good sounding (from a production standpoint) music. This is a great thing but the things that these tools do to make writing simpler for the user (quantization, forcing notes to scales etc.) makes it so that the simplest path is to pick a key, never leaver it, start a beat, never change it, etc. Great producers don't do this but a lot of the more popular producers do. So you end up with a 4 min song, with sometimes no harmonic changes, no melody, one key, and lines/drums that repeat without changing for the length of the song. Not a lot to learn there. All this to say if you want teach using hiphop you would need a teacher familiar with both modern electronic music and more traditional structures who could pick modern music that students can learn from. It is out there.

The obvious solution is to teach only using Wendy Carlos' Switched on Bach.


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## toomanynotes (May 23, 2019)

I have to say the fact that Rap is (somehow) still knocking about, the best and true form was the 80's when you had actual artists with vision with something to say. Today the dead horse flogging must stop. It just sounds so tiring, like the endless HZ clones.


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## KallumS (May 23, 2019)

toomanynotes said:


> I have to say the fact that Rap is (somehow) still knocking about, the best and true form was the 80's when you had actual artists with vision with something to say. Today the dead horse flogging must stop. It just sounds so tiring, like the endless HZ clones.



I don't know about that, I'd argue artists like Kendrick Lamar, Childish Gambino and Kanye West have vision and something to say. Stormzy also has something to say as most of his raps are political in nature. Same with artists like Akala and Immortal Technique. In fact I think a few of their songs and music videos are some of the most creative forms of artistic expression out there at the moment.

I still think more can be gleaned from an educational standpoint with an average jazz/ orchestral song than from an average rap song.


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## stixman (May 23, 2019)

Mumble rap  Coming to a school near you LOL


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## Stanoli (May 23, 2019)

toomanynotes said:


> Oh u swore! Moderator moderator! Help help! He swore...! I feel ill nauseated!
> I can tell you what Stormzy really is but ...it’s a bit harsh. C u next tuesday!



Well, real men can take it 

https://www.depop.com/products/tabithajane-who-the-fuck-is-mick/


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## Daryl (May 23, 2019)

IMO. the problem is not so much the content of the lessons, but the uninspiring teaching. A talented teacher can make anything and any subject interesting. Unfortunately there are not enough talented teachers (in all subjects) to go around. I don't think the improved "results" shown in the study reflect that people shouldn't be studying Mozart. They reflect that struggling children need to have interesting opportunities and special attention. This could be stormzy, but it's the attention and interest that is important.

The second thing to note is that whilst not studying the "classics" may make lessons temporarily more interesting, one has to be careful not to shut off options for people who want to make a career out of music. I was lucky in that lessons were free. If my parents had had to pay for lessons, I wouldn't be where I am today.

It has also been known for a long time that studying an instrument usually makes children better students at other subjects. In the end it doesn't' matter what that instrument is, as long as they get something out of it. So, if they were to study stormzy, as long as there was studying, it miught not be such a bad thing for many children.


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## MartinH. (May 23, 2019)

Daryl said:


> It has also been known for a long time that studying an instrument usually makes children better students at other subjects.



Has a causation been verified, or is it simply correlation that better students tend to have interest in learning an instrument on the side, because they aren't struggling to get through school at all, like some others?


I agree with the rest though. A teacher change in physics made me drop from A and B grades to D grades because he failed to engage the class and everyone clocked out mentally. It was a night and day difference.


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## Daryl (May 23, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> Has a causation been verified..


Yes, and anecdotally I can verify it. There are various theories as to why though. Personally I think that one of the most important lessons is "make a noise, now don't make a noise". Students who are used to this are much better behaved in "normal" class lessons, because the discipline is automatic.


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## Michael Antrum (May 23, 2019)

In 2017, I had tickets for my wife and I to go and see James Newton Howard (conducting his first concert) at the Royal Albert Hall in London. The day before, our labrador gave birth to a little of pups, so my wife informed that she wasn't going.

So I took my 11 year old daughter with me instead. At first she wasn't keen, especially when mum made her wear a proper evening dress for the event. We sat down and then the music started. She was completely blown away.

Film clips were played along with the music, and when the Central Park cue from King Kong came on, by the end tears were rolling down her cheeks. 

It's how you teach music as much as what you teach.

However, as regards Stormzy, I understand that a lot of his music is political, and as such, should not be taught in schools. It is not the place of schools to push political messages at our children.


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## mscp (May 23, 2019)

KallumS said:


> Came across this story: https://news.sky.com/story/stormzy-should-replace-mozart-in-uk-music-classrooms-study-says-11725859
> 
> National charity Youth Music has suggested that Stormzy should replace Mozart in modern curriculums, as well as introducing other types of modern music (Grime & Rap from the sounds of it).
> 
> ...



"to refresh the national plan for music education and develop a high-quality model music curriculum". 

hahahaha. this made my day.


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## chocobitz825 (May 23, 2019)

Modern music can still be analyzed for its valid musical elements. Whether you believe rap is music or not, there is a rhythm study that can be done with good rap. As an additive to the music curriculum, I think that's fine. As a replacement? I think that's a negative. What I do find interesting is how dismissive people are of rap as "non-music" and the standards they seem to think are required for music. There's often this west vs. everything else perspective in music that seems to think lesser of the musical norms of cultures that are not adherent to western standards. African styles of music are highly rhythmical with less emphasis on the melodic structure but based on the comment from Jerry Garcia, rhythm and meter alone are not enough to classify it as "music." There are various Asian culture that use non-typical scales and tones compared to the west, and again it seems like often elitist will classify it as cultural, but not musical. I consider that way of thought a major failing of the current curriculum. Music is music, and the quality may vary, but there is a way to analyze and a value to analyzing all forms of music, even if we don't get it.

Adam Neely has a nice video about this and the cult of the written score. How we put up certain styles on a pedestal and ignore what "music" is, and the validity of current music and scores.


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## mscp (May 23, 2019)

chocobitz825 said:


> Modern music can still be analyzed for its valid musical elements. Whether you believe rap is music or not, there is a rhythm study that can be done with good rap. As an additive to the music curriculum, I think that's fine. As a replacement? I think that's a negative. What I do find interesting is how dismissive people are of rap as "non-music" and the standards they seem to think are required for music. There's often this west vs. everything else perspective in music that seems to think lesser of the musical norms of cultures that are not adherent to western standards. African styles of music are highly rhythmical with less emphasis on the melodic structure but based on the comment from Jerry Garcia, rhythm and meter alone are not enough to classify it as "music." There are various Asian culture that use non-typical scales and tones compared to the west, and again it seems like often elitist will classify it as cultural, but not musical. I consider that way of thought a major failing of the current curriculum. Music is music, and the quality may vary, but there is a way to analyze and a value to analyzing all forms of music, even if we don't get it.
> 
> Adam Neely has a nice video about this and the cult of the written score. How we put up certain styles on a pedestal and ignore what "music" is, and the validity of current music and scores.




I don't think most over here are discrediting other forms of music but criticizing the replacement of classical music with. There are several reasons why classical music is the appropriate choice in academia. I might address it in an article later. I'll post the link over here later.


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## chocobitz825 (May 23, 2019)

Phil81 said:


> I don't think most over here are discrediting other forms of music but criticizing the replacement of classical music with. There are several reasons why classical music is the appropriate choice in academia. I might address it in an article later. I'll post the link over here later.



No doubt classical is an important study and should not be thrown out, but part of the curriculum favors what is familiar. Putting three issue of classical aside, I would argue that more could be learned from modern Japanese pop than current western pop. If we were to try and analyze frequency and tone, then as Adam Neely shows, even EDM has its place.

Rap from at least the 80s and 90s did have unique application of rhythm and if the fact that it’s only rhythm disqualifies it as music (again referencing garcia’s Comment) then what are percussion sections?

Academia could benefit from a more inclusive stance on music. Still I agree, it should not throw out classical as the article title implies.


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## mscp (May 23, 2019)

Daryl said:


> A talented teacher can make anything and any subject interesting. Unfortunately there are not enough talented teachers (in all subjects) to go around.



I respectfully disagree. A teacher shouldn't be treated as an entertainer but rather someone with enough knowledge to share. Kids must have the responsibility to understand that school is a "workplace for the mind" which reminds me of the importance of parenting. 



Daryl said:


> The second thing to note is that whilst not studying the "classics" may make lessons temporarily more interesting, one has to be careful not to shut off options for people who want to make a career out of music. I was lucky in that lessons were free. If my parents had had to pay for lessons, I wouldn't be where I am today.



K-12 and Higher education should always provide the highest standards of information across all subjects, regardless how interesting they are or not. The average kid/teen does not have enough knowledge and experience to decide what to pursue except the fake perception of "passion" that accumulates by being drawn into something that was perhaps temporarily "fun". 



Daryl said:


> It has also been known for a long time that studying an instrument usually makes children better students at other subjects. In the end it doesn't' matter what that instrument is, as long as they get something out of it. So, if they were to study stormzy, as long as there was studying, it miught not be such a bad thing for many children.



I agree except that I would not feel comfortable as a parent if my kid were to study Stormzy as I wouldn't want him/her to have political or any sort of biased influence at such early age.


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## chocobitz825 (May 23, 2019)

Phil81 said:


> I respectfully disagree. A teacher shouldn't be treated as an entertainer but rather someone with enough knowledge to share. Kids must have the responsibility to understand that school is a "workplace for the mind" which reminds me of the importance of parenting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is where i feel double standards and misconceptions come up. Without trying to get too political, in America, not enough schools even fund musical programs for this to be at all fair. Here in japan school as a “workplace for mind” creates obedient students, but not very creative or critical ones.

I don’t think young minds lack the ability to decide what they want to learn, but you can’t choose to learn something you don’t know exists. I went to a great school that provided great education and great options. Having access to so many options gave students the ability to have a general knowledge of many topics, and then select the ones the were most passionate about. Again this condition only really exists when kids have access to information and technology that makes their choices broad and rewarding.

As for stormzy being political, I honestly don’t know his work but to try and divorce the musical experience from politics sells music of the last 100 years short and also leads itself to bias. Why is stormzy bad, but the Beatles ok? Politics taught with a bias is good for no one, but the history of music, even the political kind should be encourage so long as it’s unbiased and used to give context.

I support rap and stormzy being added to a full and complete course on music and music history, so long as it remains in context.


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## mscp (May 23, 2019)

chocobitz825 said:


> Here in japan school as a “workplace for mind” creates obedient students, but not very creative or critical ones.



Yes, I'm right next door to you (Korea); however, it's not entirely all that black and white over here as perhaps is over there.



chocobitz825 said:


> I don’t think young minds lack the ability to decide what they want to learn, but you can’t choose to learn something you don’t know exists. I went to a great school that provided great education and great options. Having access to so many options gave students the ability to have a general knowledge of many topics, and then select the ones the were most passionate about. Again this condition only really exists when kids have access to information and technology that makes their choices broad and rewarding.



I believe you misunderstood my second paragraph entirely. "young minds lack the ability to decide what they want to learn" is not what I meant at all. I meant under the circumstances in which they are in. Context is everything. They don't have enough knowledge and experience to choose what they want to pursue at such age; therefore schools must have a higher standard of education. It's the school and the department for education's job to implement the highest standards of education possible - something that's impossible in America or the UK because...well..both governments' expressive lack of interest.




chocobitz825 said:


> Why is stormzy bad, but the Beatles ok?



The Beatles were not really taught in schools across the U.K as far as I know, unless the school I attended was out of the ordinary.




chocobitz825 said:


> so long as it remains in context.



Stripped down to its instrumentals?


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## bengoss (May 23, 2019)

Gerbil said:


> So rap music.....isn't music?


Lol, I mean it is music but when you compare it to Mozart isn’t.


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## halfwalk (May 23, 2019)

Things I've learned from this thread:

- Beyonce and Usher are apparently rappers, not R&B/pop singers.

- Drummers are not musicians.

- Lyrics, no matter how clever or artful they may seem, are of no intellectual value whatsoever.

- Classical music is objectively the best music, don't bother disagreeing.

- Everyone knows what's best for someone else's kids.

- Only the "disruptive types" enjoy rap music and the famine and disease it brings.

- All rap is exactly the same.

- Greatness only exists in the past.

- If you don't like it, then it's not really art.

- Apples are oranges but only when it fits a certain narrative.

- The cultural impact of music is not worth discussing in an educational context.


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## chocobitz825 (May 23, 2019)

Phil81 said:


> Stripped down to its instrumentals?



Actually I think discussing the lyrical content of even political music helps develop more critical thought about life and music. We discuss often how lyrics, melody and rhythm connect and why certain phrases begin and end where they do.

Music education doesn’t have to have an opinion about the politics to analyze why music was made the way it was. I’ve heard many school choirs and bands perform “let it be”. Is that not in part political song motivated by its time? Classical songs, and operas also had political motivations and messages.

As for modern music, pop music and rap may not be melodically complicated, but they do have value in sound design, pitch, modulation and sometimes advanced rhythms. Even to discuss rap, the earliest forms of rap were not as complex rhythmically as the 80’s/90s became, but it did come out of jazz and disco music, and much of the earliest rap samples jazz and r&b. To do so meant understanding rhythm and how to connect various song elements together both in rhythm and key. Around the 90s far more complex rhythm in rap became common. Even if the beat was a simple 4/4 the spoken rhythm and emphasis of phrases with the message showed a natural sense for advanced rhythms. One could even say that recent metal music shares a similar trend of less melodic development but more focus on rhythm and pedal tone riffing. All these things can then also be linked back to classical for western music and the influence classical had in developing genres like jazz and metal.

So anyways, all music is valuable. Don't knock rap just because you don’t get it (general open statement to this thread, not aimed at you specifically)


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## chocobitz825 (May 23, 2019)

I should also say something that is unpopular but true. The reason why music education tends to not hit with young people, is because most people don’t really love music. Not like we do. Most people love the experience of music. They like the stars, they liked the cult of it all. As music has become more accessible than ever now, we’re seeing people far less into it, why? Because unlike when media dictated popular media and created the frenzy around superstars for people to consume, most people now have the choice to engage in other popular media instead of music. People like cult tv shows now more than music. When faced with the challenge of now searching through all the music in the world at their fingertips in their phones, they instead choose to binge watch game of thrones.

Music filled itself into thinking it was some universal language and something as important as air or water to people and it just never naturally has been that important. People just don’t love music that much to actively search it out, much less study its history and deeper workings.


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## David Cuny (May 23, 2019)

That's an _incredibly _misleading article. 

The actual context:

Youth Music is a national charity investing in music-making projects that help children and young people develop personally and socially as well as musically. *We work particularly with those who don’t get to make music because of who they are, where they live, or what they’re going through. Young people take the lead in choosing what and how they want to learn, making music of every style and genre.*​(Emphasis added)

Why not check out their website? Their program looks really cool.

Just saying.


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## Saxer (May 23, 2019)

It's bullshit to replace Mozart by Stormzy but it's also bullshit to teach only the Mozart's and ignore all the Stormzy's out there.

I understand the idea of picking kids up in their range of experience. It's important to understand what you know. But it's also important to get open minded for unknown territories.


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## toomanynotes (May 23, 2019)

Saxer said:


> It's bullshit to replace Mozart by Stormzy but it's also bullshit to teach only the Mozart's and ignore all the Stormzy's out there.
> 
> I understand the idea of picking kids up in their range of experience. It's important to understand what you know. But it's also important to get open minded for unknown territories.


I still don't understand, who is Stormzy?


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## David Cuny (May 24, 2019)

Saxer said:


> It's bullshit to replace Mozart by Stormzy but it's also bullshit to teach only the Mozart's and ignore all the Stormzy's out there.


The actual quote (referring to the Youth Music program):


Matt Griffiths said:


> We’ve seen the benefits of students exchanging Mozart for Stormzy as part of a re-imagined music curriculum.



Stormzy's response to the British media's coverage:


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## Saxer (May 24, 2019)

Peace man


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## Jonathan Sharp (May 24, 2019)

halfwalk said:


> Things I've learned from this thread:
> 
> - Beyonce and Usher are apparently rappers, not R&B/pop singers.
> 
> ...



Things I've learned form this thread :

- All the above.

- If you'll forgive the generalisation, 99% of this forum appear to be middle aged, middle class, white males.

Me, I'll take grime over mozart any day of the week.


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## Daryl (May 24, 2019)

Phil81 said:


> I respectfully disagree. A teacher shouldn't be treated as an entertainer but rather someone with enough knowledge to share. Kids must have the responsibility to understand that school is a "workplace for the mind" which reminds me of the importance of parenting.


Yes, but a teacher who is uninspiring will put children off subjects. I can testify to that personally..! It's no good having all the information at your fingertips if you can't impart it in an interesting way.


Phil81 said:


> K-12 and Higher education should always provide the highest standards of information across all subjects, regardless how interesting they are or not. The average kid/teen does not have enough knowledge and experience to decide what to pursue except the fake perception of "passion" that accumulates by being drawn into something that was perhaps temporarily "fun".


And if it's not interesting, many children will switch off and learn nothing. It's not about temprary "fun", it's about fostering an engagement with a subject.


Phil81 said:


> I agree except that I would not feel comfortable as a parent if my kid were to study Stormzy as I wouldn't want him/her to have political or any sort of biased influence at such early age.


It depends on the age. I have no problem with children in high school learning about politics in music, as long as it's put into context, and all sides are explored. Everything in music has a historical and social context, and these are legitimate areas for a student to explore. Failing to do so leaves us with a population that knows facts, and has qualifications, but is uneducated.


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## chimuelo (May 24, 2019)

Daryl said:


> Yes, but a teacher who is uninspiring will put children off subjects. I can testify to that personally..! It's no good having all the information at your fingertips if you can't impart it in an interesting way.
> 
> And if it's not interesting, many children will switch off and learn nothing. It's not about temprary "fun", it's about fostering an engagement with a subject.
> 
> It depends on the age. I have no problem with children in high school learning about politics in music, as long as it's put into context, and all sides are explored. Everything in music has a historical and social context, and these are legitimate areas for a student to explore. Failing to do so leaves us with a population that knows facts, and has qualifications, but is uneducated.



Teach them HOW to think not WHAT to think.
I’m still raising kids and I guarantee you their head is into sports, music and women.
I was fortunate to live in a neighborhood predominately Asian. 
It was good for my sons to see parents stricter than me.

My youngest had a Taiwanese buddy, school called me one day to come pick up my boy and Li was with him. Had to take them for a Hepatitis C vaccination. 
So Li ran inside his house and came back out to go, his mothers English was so-so, but she ran out waving the piece of paper angry at her son.
In broken English she says “Why you no get Hepatitis A”.
She thought it was a report card or something.
They’re seriously into education.
It’s not cool to be a fool with them.


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## Eloy (May 25, 2019)

Instead of teaching the foundations (apply to all subjects) - let’s teach culture.
Example: no need to teach standard English - let’s teach Ebonics.


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## chocobitz825 (May 25, 2019)

Eloy said:


> Instead of teaching the foundations (apply to all subjects) - let’s teach culture.
> Example: no need to teach standard English - let’s teach Ebonics.



Condescending. 

I would have to wonder then, based in this logic, should American schools, for example, teach only the Queen’s English? Should we actually be teaching Latin first?

In reality this is why dictionaries constantly update and add modern words officially to their records. Language changes and as the new becomes normal it too is added to the curriculum.


The ironic thing is, this condescending tone against “urban” music mirrors how academia was once against adding blues and jazz. I’ll leave out the racial implications and just say at the time both were deemed too urban and other to be worth acknowledging. So in the current context, if you taught kids jazz before classical, would they be lesser musicians because of it? If you engage students with something familiar with the goal of getting them to classical, is it really all that bad?

Funny thing about language. We actually do teach culture, rather than "standard english". It is always changing because of culture. Webster's site even has an article about the common slang words that become "normal" English. They reference the following as 1916 slang that is now common:

Here are some of the words that were slang in 1916:

Awful
Belt (as in "a blow")
Bootleg
Bouncer
Cahoots
Cheek (as in "sauciness")
Coed
Cop & copper
Doctor (in the sense "to tamper with")
Fake
Fan
Fluke
Fresh (as in "forward")
Grouchy
Holdup
Hunch
Jamboree
Jinx
Kid
Leery
Measly
Party (meaning "a person")
Pub
Root (for)
Rough-house


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## Eloy (May 25, 2019)

What is being done by not teaching Mozart?
Engaging the students to one of the great musical geniuses of the past.

Will Stormzy be remembered as a musical genius?


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## chocobitz825 (May 25, 2019)

Eloy said:


> What is being done by not teaching Mozart?
> Engaging the students to one of the great musical geniuses of the past.
> 
> Will Stormzy be remembered as a musical genius?



Engaging people in music they know is a gateway to introducing them to greats of the past. The point these kind of things make is that current generations feel a disconnect with Mozart and don't immediately understand how classical can relate to the music they know. While one might say Stormzy is expendable, I have no idea (i really dont now stomzy and I doubt this really is about him). maybe one day Stormzy might be considered such. how can we say now?


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## halfwalk (May 25, 2019)

Eloy said:


> Instead of teaching the foundations (apply to all subjects) - let’s teach culture.
> Example: no need to teach standard English - let’s teach Ebonics.



Funny, we were made to recite the pledge of allegiance every morning in my school. From a very early age, this sense of blind nationalistic pride (i.e. large-scale tribalism) was subtly instilled in all of us, as thing that simply should not be questioned. So basically, they force fed us "culture" every morning.

Anyway, one possible issue with teaching only the works of the "established geniuses" of the past is that it can set the bar impossibly high for the learners, based on completely arbitrary dogma. "Learn this (but be aware that nobody will ever be as good as this because my worldview does not allow for the 'greats' to ever be surpassed)."

Teach kids to approach the world with an open mind. "Genius" is often just "tons of hard work every day" in disguise. So any musician or composer who has worked hard at their craft is fair game in my opinion.

It's entirely possible to get a high school diploma (and even an undergraduate degree) without ever questioning or challenging a single thing you are taught. Then these kids grow up and, in a college classroom, 95% of them just sit silently and don't even ask questions at all, let alone question the information itself. Then we all end up stuck in the past.

As for the original topic, I don't see why teaching Stormzy et al (who is really, in my view here, just a proxy for modern music versus classical) means they can't also teach Mozart. There's room for both, and for much more. But I can say personally that if my introduction to music had been purely Mozart/classical, I would have gotten bored right away and turned to painting or sports instead. I never got into classical music until I had already been a musician for ~15 years.


"You’ve got to play with ideas that are sort of on the edge of what we know, otherwise you’re stuck with what we know." - Sir Roger Penrose


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## Morning Coffee (May 25, 2019)

Jonathan Sharp said:


> - If you'll forgive the generalisation, 99% of this forum appear to be middle aged, middle class, white males.



The other 1% might be ageist, classist, racist and sexist, but forgive me as that could just be a generalisation.


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## chimuelo (May 26, 2019)

Morning Coffee said:


> The other 1% might be ageist, classist, racist and sexist, but forgive me as that could just be a generalisation.



As a brown skinned racist I’m offended.
But a great comeback to the blathering from Parrots, reiterated by their Sheep.


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## paularthur (May 26, 2019)

Always a touchy subject... 
It's interesting to read about how Jazz was talked about late 19th century to how it's talked about now. Not that i'm equating it musically to Rap but it was talked about the same way...
Stormzy would be a good study for spoken word.
I can't speak for the UK but in America we've had people talk about how they should introduce music through John Williams vs. the standard classical. Kids of every background know the opening of Star Wars, it's arguably more popular than the national anthem.


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