# Let's collectivley pontificate on the future of Logic Pro. 🧐



## Alex Fraser (Jul 15, 2021)

Hey gang.

The recent Logic update got my brain whirring once again. It's been around *8 years* since I last gave Apple some gold for Logic. In the meantime we've had any number of free updates (Alchemy!) that would be point charges for any other company.

As we all know, "Logic X" has become "Logic Pro" along with FCP etc.

So...is this it? Can we expect to float on the Apple gravy boat for years to come, enjoying the bounty that comes from continued (free) updates? Or is there a dastardly subscription incoming?

Or are the Apple top brass even paying much attention to the app anymore? (Looks at ES1, ES2 etc..)

All thoughts and sneaky insider knowledge welcome.
A


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## CT (Jul 15, 2021)

I'm still waiting for this!






Am I crazy, or should this obviously be a standard DAW feature?


We can choose between piano roll view or score view in our DAW's secondary windows, but in the main arrange window, every track is only represented by a stripped-down piano roll. Why can't we also have something like this? Is there a reason I'm missing which makes this a dumb or...




vi-control.net


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## mybadmemory (Jul 15, 2021)

I think apple is putting a lot of work into its music app albeit with more focus on the garbage band versions for Mac, iOS, and iPadOS than on its big brother. Their model have always been to basically give their software away for free to sell hardware and get people locked into the ecosystem.

Just think about the number of teens turning producers and songwriters that got started with GarageBand on a MacBook or iPhone and stayed with apple hardware and software because of it in the last 10 years. That’s where they put their effort I believe. In the millions of young people that want to be creative with what they have.


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 15, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> I think apple is putting a lot of work into its music app albeit with more focus on the garbage band versions for Mac, iOS, and iPadOS than on its big brother. Their model have always been to basically give their software away for free to sell hardware and get people locked into the ecosystem.
> 
> Just think about the number of teens turning producers and songwriters that got started with GarageBand on a MacBook or iPhone and stayed with apple hardware and software because of it in the last 10 years. That’s where they put their effort I believe. In the millions of young people that want to be creative with what they have.


Good points.
Garageband has content and GUI updates that have yet to make it to Logic.



Mike T said:


> I'm still waiting for this!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Really Mike? I would have put you more in the Logic "needs downloadable midi packs" camp.. 😉


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## el-bo (Jul 15, 2021)

I don't see them going subscription, ever...


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 15, 2021)

A quick musing on subscriptions:
Apple _do_ appear to be experimenting with the model at the moment, but there's an emphasis on supplying content and services, not actual software.

So if subscriptions for Garageband/Logic became a thing, I'd imagine it would be more along the lines of content via loops/audio and "collabs" with the artist(s) of the moment, rather than an out-right "we're now charging monthly for the thing that was previously free."


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## el-bo (Jul 15, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> Really Mike? I would have put you more in the Logic "needs downloadable midi packs" camp.. 😉



I Got You!


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## Vik (Jul 15, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> an we expect to float on the Apple gravy boat for years to come, enjoying the bounty that comes from continued (free) updates?


I only planned to write 'yes', but since you asked for pontification... 

A lot of people buy Macs because of Logic: it's a great DAW and also has a good price. So, of course, Apple will keep updating Logic. The Logic development has had benefits from the Apple acquirement almost 20 years ago, like the fact that Logic was already ready for Apple Silicon when the first M1 Macs were released. There's probably a downside or two by being owned by Apple as well... they can't make Logic into a DAW that is clearly better than all other DAWs in all areas, because that could mean that other DAW developers would drop the Mac platform entirely.

Also, they have to keep focusing on mainstream wishes from users; Logic is inexpensive because it appeals to a lot of users/because a lot of users buying Macs is essential for Apple. The Logic team probablycan't focus too much on stuff that only a small fraction of their users are interested in. That could be a reason (remember, this and everything else in this post is just guesswork) that it took so long for Logic to get expression maps and a freeze function that freed up all sample memory used by Kontakt.

There's also another topic to consider: Macs and PCs are soon going to be so powerful, RAM and storage keeps getting cheaper etc., so at some point, loads of people will fail to find a reason to keep updating their Macs. The entry level M1 Macs are already a lot more powerful than we expected for that price.

Since Logic doesn't cost much and even OS updates are free, Apple needs to make sure people keep buying new Macs even if they don't have to. They'll continue to develop the OS combined with making new versions of their apps dependent on relatively new OS versions. Since Logic 10.6 requires Catalina and has done that for some time, and since the whole Intel>M1 transition suggests that there will be a lot of changes within the Apple eco-system the next few years, the next major Logic release will probably require Big Sur, the Logic version after that will probably require Monterey – and so on.

IMO the future is bright for Logic and most Logic users, including most pro users. Personally I'm on an 11 year old Mac, a four year old OS and Logic 10.4.8, but that has to change. I'll invest in a Apple Silicon Mac relatively soon, and maybe switch to an iMac for a while in the transition process. But I still feel totally OK about keeping a Mac for 10 years (and that will continue unless apple suddenly starts to focus on notation, compositional tools and other pet peeves of mine and make these changes dependent on MacOS versions I otherwise don't need, and those MacOS versions require new Macs that I otherwise don't need).


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## jonathanwright (Jul 15, 2021)

The next big change for Logic will be when it appears on the iPad and iPhone.

Now they are able to produce software that works on both macOS and iOS I've no doubt there will be a convergence.

Ultimately, I wouldn't be surprised if the aim is to be able to run a full version of Logic on your iPhone/iPad, which can be either used on the device, or plugged into a screen and used in the same way we do now.

We will literally be able to carry our DAW around in our pockets.


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## mybadmemory (Jul 15, 2021)

jonathanwright said:


> The next big change for Logic will be when it appears on the iPad and iPhone.
> 
> Now they are able to produce software that works on both macOS and iOS I've no doubt there will be a convergence.
> 
> ...


It already does in the shape of Garage Band.


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## jonathanwright (Jul 15, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> It already does in the shape of Garage Band.


This would be the full version of Logic though, all the stock plugins and content, score and editing capabilities. Whether they're already in the process of using GB as a test case for Logic I don't know, they'll hopefully be learning about how to implement a full touch interface to make switching between a pseudo-desktop and iOS touch device easy from a workflow point of view.

With iPad's already being able to access external drives, it'll be interesting to see if they will allow streaming from SSD's etc.


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 15, 2021)

Vik said:


> There's also another topic to consider: Macs and PCs are soon going to be so powerful, RAM and storage keeps getting cheaper etc., so at some point, loads of people will fail to find a reason to keep updating their Macs. The entry level M1 Macs are already a lot more powerful than we expected for that price.


Yup, good point. Theoretically, those M1 Macs will have a longer natural lifecycle: One (or none) moving parts and they run cooler.



el-bo said:


> I Got You!


Fair play to Nico (if that's his real name) for spotting a gap in the market and exploiting it mercilessly. Wish I'd thought of it!



jonathanwright said:


> The next big change for Logic will be when it appears on the iPad and iPhone.
> 
> Now they are able to produce software that works on both macOS and iOS I've no doubt there will be a convergence.


It's certainly a thought. From Retro Synth onwards, the new GUIs seem to have been designed with fingers in mind. Big, chunky controls and suspicious iPad-like dimensions. I'm not sure my fat fingers would dance over Logic with much grace though..

I'm sure it's technically possible. Maybe it's more of a business decision though. If Logic was on iOS too, wouldn't that cannibalise Mac sales? I don't know.


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## el-bo (Jul 15, 2021)

jonathanwright said:


> The next big change for Logic will be when it appears on the iPad and iPhone.


I don't think it'll ever happen. Doing so will mean cannibalising laptop sales. 

They are trying to sell us on the whole eco-system i.e desktop/laptop, tablet and phone. And GarageBand is an effective bridge between mobile and a home Logic setup, and there are tons of other mobile solutions if GarageBand is not enough.


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## mybadmemory (Jul 15, 2021)

jonathanwright said:


> This would be the full version of Logic though, all the stock plugins and content, score and editing capabilities. Whether they're already in the process of using GB as a test case for Logic I don't know, they'll hopefully be learning about how to implement a full touch interface to make switching between a pseudo-desktop and iOS touch device easy from a workflow point of view.
> 
> With iPad's already being able to access external drives, it'll be interesting to see if they will allow streaming from SSD's etc.


I don’t see why they would go that route. While it might sound cool from our POV, we’re a really small subset of users and Apple is always going for the the billions of casual users. I think where we’ll see the most development is in Garbage Band, rather than in Logic, and primarily on iOS and iPadOS. That's where the big crowds are, and apple want those to buy their hardware and use their ecosystem.

Their entire business model is bringing the billions of casual users in, though the mobile devices, to get hooked on the ecosystem, and eventually end up with a lot of Apple hardware and services subscriptions. One way they do this is by giving away really nice software like Garage Band and iMovie for free, which lets the majority of users do 90% of what they want. For the few of us that are not happy there, they offer the pro versions, Logic and Final Cut Pro, for which they also charge (though really not that much).

But I don’t see any real business benefit for Apple in putting Logic on their mobile devices.


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## dgburns (Jul 15, 2021)

I want Sound diver back.


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## el-bo (Jul 15, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> For the few of us that are not happy there, they offer the pro versions


I reckon that it's the minority who won't want the pro versions. It would be different if the Pro version of Logic cost a huge amount more. But 'Pro' software is aspirational, and aspirational is an easy sell at $200


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## mybadmemory (Jul 15, 2021)

Well. I think it's quite clear that Apple prioritises it's mobile OS's before it's desktop OS, and it's mobile / consumer apps before it's Pro apps. And have been doing so (which makes perfect sense) for a long time. What we see is not iOS and iPad OS getting closer and closer to Mac OS for example, we see the exact opposite. Basically all innovation happens on the mobile OS side, and for each version of Mac OS we see more and more of the mobile OS stuff trickling in. The same is true for the relationship of Logic and Garage Band. We've seen a whole lot of development and innovation in Garage Band, especially in the mobile versions over the last years. Features that eventually end up even in Logic. In my eyes it's clear that Apple works for the mobile/casual markets first, since they are in clear majority, and eventually adapt their desktop/pro OS's and apps to follow suit, rather than the other way around.


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## el-bo (Jul 15, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> Well. I think it's quite clear that Apple prioritises it's mobile OS's before it's desktop OS, and it's mobile / consumer apps before it's Pro apps. And have been doing so (which makes perfect sense) for a long time. What we see is not iOS and iPad OS getting closer and closer to Mac OS for example, we see the exact opposite. Basically all innovation happens on the mobile OS side, and for each version of Mac OS we see more and more of the mobile OS stuff trickling in. The same is true for the relationship of Logic and Garage Band. We've seen a whole lot of development and innovation in Garage Band, especially in the mobile versions over the last years. Features that eventually end up even in Logic. In my eyes it's clear that Apple works for the mobile/casual markets first, since they are in clear majority, and eventually adapt their desktop/pro OS's and apps to follow suit, rather than the other way around.


It's not just that the mobile market is bigger i.e more unique customers, but that it's a market in which users are buying newer hardware long before their current, 'older' model needs replacing. When it comes to the flagship-chasers, many are buying every year. This is not true of computers, as far as I can tell.

It's also important to remember that Garageband isn't just a mobile app. So unless I have it completely wrong (I don't really keep up with Garageband innovation), the entire Garageband platform, regardless of OS gets these new features at the same time.

My theory would be that they are using their free software to test these features out; not so much for bugs, but for popularity...before they decide to roll them into their premium, paid apps. Perhaps that was the reason that Auto-Sampler was debuted in Mainstage i.e to Beta/road-test in a cheaper app, without doing so in an app that would not eventually end up with the feature.

I'm not sure the idea that "all innovation happens on the mobile OS side" is true or really too damning of an indictment. The current Logic is built on decades' worth of foundation and worthy of it's 'Pro' moniker. There needs to be a delicate balance between evolution and revolution, when it comes to software that working artists rely on. Often, on the forums, users will be seen expressing the sentiment that their ideal new features are no new features. Certainly, many users seem to prefer bug-fixes and stability over the 'new shiny'.


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## jbuhler (Jul 15, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> Well. I think it's quite clear that Apple prioritises it's mobile OS's before it's desktop OS, and it's mobile / consumer apps before it's Pro apps. And have been doing so (which makes perfect sense) for a long time. What we see is not iOS and iPad OS getting closer and closer to Mac OS for example, we see the exact opposite. Basically all innovation happens on the mobile OS side, and for each version of Mac OS we see more and more of the mobile OS stuff trickling in. The same is true for the relationship of Logic and Garage Band. We've seen a whole lot of development and innovation in Garage Band, especially in the mobile versions over the last years. Features that eventually end up even in Logic. In my eyes it's clear that Apple works for the mobile/casual markets first, since they are in clear majority, and eventually adapt their desktop/pro OS's and apps to follow suit, rather than the other way around.


One issue is the hardware doesn’t feature in tv shows and movies if there’s not pro-level buy in. Compare the ubiquity of Apple products in media say a decade or so ago compared to today. And student use has gone from 80%+ Apple laptops a decade ago to maybe 30% today. (iPhones still dominate among students though, but even that dominance is not what it was.) Media cool sells units and it’s arguably one reason Apple has started reinvesting in their pro branding. (We’ll see if that translates in the actual pro hardware and software.)


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## jonathanwright (Jul 15, 2021)

I'm not just talking about Logic on the iPad. Apple is apparently actively developing all of their Pro apps (Final Cut, Logic etc) to run on the iPad, some reports are saying we'll see them as soon as this year.

Apple have said themselves that they ultimately see the future of computers for many as a handheld device that you plug into other peripherals depending on usage.

It doesn't have to cannibalise any other markets. iPads haven't stopped development of laptops, and laptops haven't stopped development of desktops.

Things are already changing though. I'm currently going from an iMac to an M1 laptop due to the huge leap forward in power. There's no reason why that won't progress to connecting a high spec iPhone/iPad to a screen in the future.


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## marclawsonmusic (Jul 15, 2021)

I just want track delay to work properly.


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## SupremeFist (Jul 15, 2021)

el-bo said:


> I don't think it'll ever happen. Doing so will mean cannibalising laptop sales.
> 
> They are trying to sell us on the whole eco-system i.e desktop/laptop, tablet and phone. And GarageBand is an effective bridge between mobile and a home Logic setup, and there are tons of other mobile solutions if GarageBand is not enough.



Absolutely this. I just got a new ipad air to use primarily with Logic Remote/Sidecar (as well as Notion), and Garageband these days is amazingly well-featured for sketching (at least for non-orchestral stuff), and then you can just import the project directly into Logic and carry on...


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## lastmessiah (Jul 15, 2021)

jonathanwright said:


> I'm not just talking about Logic on the iPad. Apple is apparently actively developing all of their Pro apps (Final Cut, Logic etc) to run on the iPad, some reports are saying we'll see them as soon as this year.
> 
> Apple have said themselves that they ultimately see the future of computers for many as a handheld device that you plug into other peripherals depending on usage.
> 
> ...


Logic isn't coming to iOS. GarageBand is the iOS version of Logic. You can't translate the in-depth features of software like Logic to a streamlined touch interface. Look at Auria Pro as an example, it is a "full-featured" program but fiddly and obtuse on a touchscreen. Apple won't release something like that.


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## SupremeFist (Jul 15, 2021)

Mike T said:


> I'm still waiting for this!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would love this! I'm old enough to remember that Logic used to have a fuzzy version of this method of displaying region content (no ledger lines), and I was very annoyed when they ditched it.


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## Wunderhorn (Jul 15, 2021)

Vik said:


> There's also another topic to consider: Macs and PCs are soon going to be so powerful, RAM and storage keeps getting cheaper etc., so at some point, loads of people will fail to find a reason to keep updating their Macs. The entry level M1 Macs are already a lot more powerful than we expected for that price.


Well, well... with the M-series it seems that with every RAM upgrade (and the M2 is rumored to crap out at 32GB) you'll have to buy a whole new computer. Definitely lucrative!
And people fall for that with the marketing fairy-tale that RAM with the M1 magically quadruples.

Yeah, I don't see a lot of big change for Logic. It's being well tended for, generally. But I am seeing that there is now a bit less focus on pleasing orchestral/media composers lately. Cubase on the other hand...


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## CATDAD (Jul 15, 2021)

I'm thinking a big update to Ultrabeat. Twice as many circular objects, shinier lighting on the UI graphics, smaller text, every note has its own unique instance of ES2 attached to it...

...all this at half the resolution. The future is here!


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 15, 2021)

CATDAD said:


> I'm thinking a big update to Ultrabeat. Twice as many circular objects, shinier lighting on the UI graphics, smaller text, every note has its own unique instance of ES2 attached to it...
> 
> ...all this at half the resolution. The future is here!


And they ported that wonder straight to Retina…


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## charlieclouser (Jul 15, 2021)

TL;DR = Apple doesn't care about making money from software at all - they already have us on a subscription model - for their ever-improving shiny bits of hardware.

Long version = One bit of historical perspective RE: pricing / updates / fear of subscription model:

In 1986 I worked at the Sam Ash music store on 48th street in Manhattan. In that pre-internet era, in order to see / touch / hear the latest in music technology, one had to make an in-person pilgrimage to 48th street, where Sam Ash, Manny's, We Buy Guitars, and Alex Music all had stores next to each other, with Sam Ash having four separate stores stacked two high! It was a solid half-block of pure gear-nerd nirvana.

At the time, computers were not really sold in music stores, there were no Apple Stores, and Apple computers could only be sold by authorized dealers whose personnel had received appropriate training from Apple. Sam Ash began selling Atari ST computers when they came out, and we moved stacks of them. So management determined that we should become the first music store chain to be an authorized Apple dealer. Inquiries were made, and although minimum order quantities could easily be met, wholesale prices and selling prices were non-negotiable. NO DISCOUNTS ON APPLE!

But it wasn't as simple as becoming an authorized Peavey dealer or whatever. Anyone who was going to write up a receipt for an Apple product had to be trained, in person, at an Apple headquarters. At the time, the nearest one to NYC was in Secaucus, NJ. As the nominal head of the computer department at the flagship store, I was on the list, as was Barry Horowitz (the main buyer for the whole chain) and one or two employees from each of the nine stores. So off to Secaucus we went for a multi-day crash course in all things Apple.

By this point I was already three or four machines deep into my Apple experience, with a Mac Plus that I'd upgraded with a 68020 CPU and internal 20mb hard drive (voiding my warranty of course) so I might not have paid too much attention to explanations of the difference between modem and printer ports.... but one point really stuck with me:

It was made abundantly clear to us that the long-term plan for Apple was to, as much as possible, make OS and application software FREE OF CHARGE - because that software would run ONLY on Apple computers and it was on the computer hardware that Apple would make their massive profits. The race to the bottom on software pricing had already begun, and it was explained to us that software represented a large investment of time and effort to develop in the first place, but an even larger and more troublesome investment of time and effort for continuing support and updates - and that in order to make it a profitable situation, the software would need to sell for many times its current price tier. Making big profits - at least, at the level that Apple likes - on software was not possible.

Therefore it was determined that the plan was to allow third-party developers to charge whatever they wanted for their software, but if the developer made titles ONLY for Apple machines then they would receive preferential treatment, increased and early access to Apple resources, advertising support, etc. Developers who produced titles for other platforms would be more "outside looking in". The pricing of Apple-produced titles would creep downwards toward "token pricing" that was so low it was not expected to actually make money for Apple, only to deter customers from scooping up every single title including stuff they'd never use. Remember this was pre-internet, pre-download era when software was only supplied on physical media, boxed, with printed manuals. So there were manufacturing and distribution costs that needed to be recouped.

Another strategy that was revealed, even to us half-baked (totally baked, in my case) civilians, was that if an independent developer produced a cross-platform title that was competition for an Apple-produced title, that Apple would either buy their title (or their entire company!) and instantly drop cross-platform support, and if that wasn't possible, would throw massive resources behind acquiring, developing, or improving an in-house title and reducing the price to mercilessly crush the competition and drive them out of the market. Losing money by pricing a software title at $99 when the competition was at $399 wasn't a problem since Apple would make zillions on the hardware. Plus, they saw software only as a way to improve the value and appeal of their hardware, not as a viable way to actually generate profits - and Apple-exclusive titles that didn't exist in any form on other platforms were the ultimate goal.

Exceptions would be made for strategic reasons of course, which is why Performer and Southworth's Total Music were allowed to exist - a small amount of diversity and competition is fine, but if a cross-platform title became too successful it might lead to people switching from Mac to PC - and this was not to be tolerated. This was not such a danger back then, when PC machines were on DOS 3.1, and Jim Miller's Personal Composer, Voyetra's Sequencer+, and a Roland MPU-401 MIDI interface were considered state of the art on the PC side. But this strategy was revealed to us as a long-term plan for Apple, although they admitted it might be VERY long-term, and might take decades to be fully realized. Another factor that was impressed upon us was that Apple would spare no expense to provide developer resources and support that were far beyond what the competition could achieve, in order to encourage developers to create titles for Apple instead of PC.

.... and here we are, nearly forty years later, and what's the state of the industry? Apple hardware is amazing and profits (and stock prices) are ridiculously great. Their hardware is premium-priced, their OS updates are free, and their own software is dirt-cheap, as predicted. Developer support, including the App Store, Swift, and WWDC, is massively expensive for Apple but free (or super-cheap) for developers. Third-party software prices have been driven downwards by pressure, not just from Apple itself, but also from a race to the bottom by hungry, nimble start-ups who can use Apple's dev tools to whip up an app in a few weeks and push it to the world via the App Store with minimal fuss and minimal up-front costs for distribution. If the title is good, Apple will promote it. If the title is bad, it will disappear into the murk.

More notably, Apple did exactly what they predicted - they saw the rising success of Logic, which at the time was cross-platform, and realizing that playing catch-up with an in-house DAW in the hopes of unseating Logic's dominance might not be the way to go, simply bought Emagic and discontinued cross-platform support. Boom.

Why they didn't purchase Digidesign (or, later, Avid) is kind of a mystery to me - but I suspect there were shaky financials, costly and cumbersome legacy hardware support issues, and other back-room factors that made Apple owning Pro Tools less than attractive. Perhaps they predicted that, sooner or later, people wouldn't need or want Pro Tools because Logic and other Apple titles were getting so good. Other than the iron-clad entrenchment of Pro Tools in the audio post world, this is kind of true. The kids these days don't care about Pro Tools, it's mostly us grey-beards who refuse to leave.

And what's happening with software-only developers? As they see their price points pushed downwards, and their support and development costs not decreasing on pace with pricing, what are they doing? Moving to subscription models in an effort to maintain a consistent cash flow. What good is it to get a one-time price of $399 for a software title if it will cost you $398 in development and support costs over the life of the customer? Better to get $99 per year, EVERY year, and hope you can keep the lights on long enough to retire or cash out if Apple decides to buy or bury your company. Even non-subscription titles like Cubase, which sells for around $600 up front, charges subscription-like prices for updates. It would probably be cheaper for users if Cubase was just a straight-up $99 per year, with all-you-can-eat updates as long as you stay on plan.

So. All this is by way of saying: I don't think Apple will ever move to a subscription model for software like Logic. They already have us hooked on a subscription model - for the hardware. There's always a better, faster, more powerful computer just around the corner, and other than the new cheese grater Mac Pros, the price points for hardware don't shift all that much. You best believe they spend a lot of time and money finding the price points that customers are comfortable with, and then optimizing their products and manufacturing to hit those price points while increasing profits.

Anyone who complains that Apple hardware is too expensive should, instead of buying a new computer for $3k, buy $3k of AAPL and wait a year or two. The value of the stock increases faster than the price of the hardware. As an example, $3,000 of AAPL bought in 2000 would be worth around *$1.5 million* today. It's bonkers.


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## el-bo (Jul 15, 2021)

jonathanwright said:


> I'm not just talking about Logic on the iPad. Apple is apparently actively developing all of their Pro apps (Final Cut, Logic etc) to run on the iPad, some reports are saying we'll see them as soon as this year.


There seem to be quite a few people currently trying to make a career out of blowing hot-air about what they predict various tech industries are doing behind closed doors. So I'm curious what you mean by "Apple is apparently..." and "some reports are saying...".



jonathanwright said:


> Apple have said themselves that they ultimately see the future of computers for many as a handheld device that you plug into other peripherals depending on usage.


They may well be talking hypothesising that to be the case, for the future. But right now, they've just released close-to their most powerful portables as their lower-priced entry-point. They don't look ready to drop full computers quite yet.




jonathanwright said:


> It doesn't have to cannibalise any other markets. iPads haven't stopped development of laptops, and laptops haven't stopped development of desktops.


Laptops won't stop development of desktops, because there is so much utility in portability, but that same portability rules laptops out as being desktop killers. 

iPads not killing off laptops might only be down to the issue of size of tablets. Given the fan-less nature, I'm assuming there will be a point where power has to be backed off so as to not burn the hands of users. Laptops (even the current fan-less M1 Air) are better suited for dealing with that heat buildup, and will generally not be used on laps.


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## el-bo (Jul 15, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> Fair play to Nico (if that's his real name) for spotting a gap in the market and exploiting it mercilessly. Wish I'd thought of it!


Yes!...No!...Kinda...

...Actually, no comment


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 15, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Yes!...No!...Kinda...
> 
> ...Actually, no comment


“Niko” sounds a bit like “El-bo”
Hang on….it’s you?! 😁😳


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## CATDAD (Jul 15, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> “Niko” sounds a bit like “El-bo”
> Hang on….it’s you?! 😁😳


There's no way, I haven't seen a single structural can of peas in any of Nico's ads!


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 15, 2021)

I personally do not think Apple will abandon LogicPro for quite some time, that is the good news. I don't think they care so much about the Pro user crowd though...enough to give LogicPro the TLC that it needs and deserves. In order to do that they would need to start charing more of a pro user price for it.

Every time a LogicPro release comes out there is a long list of things that were fixed on it... So there is obviously a team somewhere working on it daily. Not sure how big that team is, but they are doing some things that fit into whatever budget Apple has decided it can spend subsidizing that software development in some way that will help sell more Macs. So far so good, they haven't given up on that.... 

But, its also true that LogicPro tends to get superficial updates...wizz bang features that look neat on the UI and makes it look like having a Mac is just so much better then having a PC....while they repeatedly ignore fundamental internal fixes that are badly needed in the environment engine and other places internally...going back for many years already.. 

I personally don't think we will see many big huge changes in LogicPro in the next 10 years..I think it will keep creeping along with the same sort of stuff it has been doing for the last 10 years. A little feature here or there to keep people interested.

There are certain things about LogicPro's UI that I really like a lot compared to their competitors...I find it to be very intuitive in the typical easy use cases, but where it breaks down is when you start trying to do advanced routing and things like that...then you have to jump through a bunch of hoops, write Scripts, send midi over IAC and all while dealing with an antiquated environment engine that needs some work by now.

I suspect that they will add some new crafty way to make music and people will go "whoa cool" and use the new crafty music making tools..maybe we'll see the return of chord tracks...things like that. The antiquated environment engine I expect to be as equally broken in 2030 as it is today.


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## el-bo (Jul 15, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> “Niko” sounds a bit like “El-bo”
> Hang on….it’s you?! 😁😳


You Got Me!!


----------



## el-bo (Jul 15, 2021)

CATDAD said:


> There's no way, I haven't seen a single structural can of peas in any of Nico's ads!


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## SupremeFist (Jul 15, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> But, its also true that LogicPro tends to get superficial updates...wizz bang features that look neat on the UI and makes it look like having a Mac is just so much better then having a PC....while they repeatedly ignore fundamental internal fixes that are badly needed in the environment engine and other places internally...going back for many years already..
> 
> I personally don't think we will see many big huge changes in LogicPro in the next 10 years..I think it will keep creeping along with the same sort of stuff it has been doing for the last 10 years. A little feature here or there to keep people interested.
> 
> There are certain things about LogicPro's UI that I really like a lot compared to their competitors...I find it to be very intuitive in the typical easy use cases, but where it breaks down is when you start trying to do advanced routing and things like that...then you have to jump through a bunch of hoops, write Scripts, send midi over IAC and all while dealing with an antiquated environment engine that needs some work by now.


This is a little unfair. The very excellent step sequencer that was introduced in 10.5 is huuuuuuge for people doing electronica, and also they just fixed the long-standing PDC bug.


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 15, 2021)

not unfair at all...that is how they have been for many years already and how I expect them to be.

They just released something that alleges to have fixed some of the PDC bugs, I do not know yet whether all aspects of automation PDC problems, etc..were fixed...the testing needs to happen in the user base for awhile.

but people complained about those PDC bugs for a VERY LONG TIME... a very critical bug in my view. I'm glad they finally fixed it...but there do remain many more strange issues like that in the environment that I expect to be fully ignored for years to come.

The step sequencer is the kind of improvement that I think we will see more of in the future ( I already stated that ), possibly a return of the chord track, things like that. Generally useful features I might add! But...the internals will be mostly ignored. Even the the PDC update, they tried to release a so called fix for it in 10.6.2 which broke more things then it fixed. Now the recent 10.6.3 they say they probably got it right, but we'll see, I suspect they got some of it right and still missed a few details with these internals..but we shall see. There are a number of PDC and record offset issues....

Real professional users simply cannot deal with PDC that gets automation out of sync with reality...yet...that is what pro users have had to deal with in LogicPro for nearly 10 years.

Don't get me wrong, I still remain a fan of LogicPro for many reasons, but all of these DAW's have strengths and weaknesses and one of LogicPro's weaknesses, IMHO, is this dynamic that exists..most likely mainly because it is largely a subsidized project.


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 15, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> This is a little unfair. The very excellent step sequencer that was introduced in 10.5 is huuuuuuge for people doing electronica, and also they just fixed the long-standing PDC bug.


And the sampler/q sampler/dmd stuff introduced at the same time utterly changed my workflow in one swoop. 

Granted, built on existing tech but a great integration.


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## SupremeFist (Jul 15, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> And the sampler/q sampler/dmd stuff introduced at the same time utterly changed my workflow in one swoop.
> 
> Granted, built on existing tech but a great integration.


Yes, DMD is great too! (And Drum Synth is essentially the Ultrabeat update.)


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 15, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> Yes, DMD is great too! (And Drum Synth is essentially the Ultrabeat update.)


Drum Synth. Looks like a toy but smacks HARD. I love it.


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## SupremeFist (Jul 15, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> Real professional users simply cannot deal with PDC that gets automation out of sync with reality...yet...that is what pro users have had to deal with in LogicPro for nearly 10 years.


Again to be fair, only in a quite specific subset of circumstances. And meanwhile "real professional users" (not including myself) have apparently been happily shipping music from Logic all that time.


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## gsilbers (Jul 15, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> Hey gang.
> 
> The recent Logic update got my brain whirring once again. It's been around *8 years* since I last gave Apple some gold for Logic. In the meantime we've had any number of free updates (Alchemy!) that would be point charges for any other company.
> 
> ...



A few things if they are not obvious.
Logic pro has a very expensive dongle in the form of a personal computer.
Which has to be upgraded every so often.
And its incentive to get other services like icloud, music etc. So they leverage their prodcuts and services to get more money out of poeple.

and now it seems the push is for apple cpus hardware. So soon poeple will have more powerful laptops using bigger sessions in logic. And plenty of more money from hardware sales.


Logic is still behind Ableton Live. And you can see logic, motu etc copying all those LIVE features to lure users.
And thats where those free upgrades come from. It must get them a lot in return if they are giving away for existing users. Apple seems to operate on large margins. So whatever they are doing its working very good for them.

Normally for subscription services the prices has to be worth it. at $300, they might just do instalments they just announced for apple card.

BBut maybe, if i where apple, i would jump on the samples and plugins platform.
Instead of having waves, isotope, arturia, NI, east west all be on their own website, maybe it can be inside logic. Like apple music or Arcade but for 3rd party plugins and sounds.

Forgot to mention that developers need to pay a fee in the back end to use apple tools.


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## el-bo (Jul 15, 2021)

gsilbers said:


> Logic pro has a very expensive dongle in the form of a personal computer.


The amount i haven't had to spend updating Logic, over the last 7-8 years, pretty much paid for my last Mac


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## gsilbers (Jul 15, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> One issue is the hardware doesn’t feature in tv shows and movies if there’s not pro-level buy in. Compare the ubiquity of Apple products in media say a decade or so ago compared to today. And student use has gone from 80%+ Apple laptops a decade ago to maybe 30% today. (iPhones still dominate among students though, but even that dominance is not what it was.) Media cool sells units and it’s arguably one reason Apple has started reinvesting in their pro branding. (We’ll see if that translates in the actual pro hardware and software.)



Since i worked in distribution and post in LA. One thing i noticed when apple came out with the new mac pro and expensive display , was it was at the same time that AppleTV started to do its own shows. 
And Pro res file is the main file use by all studios. Netflix, disney etc for broadcasting as well. (mpg too). 
But the hardware used for the back end of hollywood is extremely expensive. Dell and HP sell these high end computers. its like $40k+ for those pc used in editing bays. Encoding machines are also pricey. And they charge a large fee for pro res licenses and other licenses. 
So that new mac pro and display, even though its bonkers expensive for us, its actually cheaper than whats available today in that market. 
so i think apple is trying to trickle down among high end prodcutions so people will see micheal Bay or tatantino using a mac pro when editing the next transformer kill bill version lol. 
and that way not have to compete agasint high end i9 and video gaming consoles that target a demographic that doesnt really like apple. Think Linus tips. 
Thats my guess on that stategy on high end pro branding. They where waiting to put some peaces together like making new tv shows, having more of an LA presence, getting spiealberg onboard. and so on. Basically creating an echosystem that would resonate in the indsutry. So if they go high end, well, theyll try to get as much market share for that specific market.


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## charlieclouser (Jul 15, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> I personally do not think Apple will abandon LogicPro for quite some time, that is the good news. I don't think they care so much about the Pro user crowd though...enough to give LogicPro the TLC that it needs and deserves. In order to do that they would need to start charing more of a pro user price for it.



Apple does not need to charge more for Logic in order to fund further improvements or development. The current price is not an effort to actually make money for Apple, it is only to deter every single owner of Apple hardware from just grabbing Logic for free (or $9.99) and thus clogging up the support and distribution channels. It is a "token price". Funding for Logic development comes mainly from sales of shiny new Apple hardware - and they spend a lot on the Logic team.



Dewdman42 said:


> Every time a LogicPro release comes out there is a long list of things that were fixed on it... So there is obviously a team somewhere working on it daily. Not sure how big that team is, but they are doing some things that fit into whatever budget Apple has decided it can spend subsidizing that software development in some way that will help sell more Macs. So far so good, they haven't given up on that....



The Logic dev team is bigger than ever - certainly much bigger and more well-funded than it ever was in the Emagic era. Gerhard and Clemens are still at the helm and very much in control and deeply involved. They're not just kicking back on a yacht somewhere - although they could certainly afford to. I hung out with Gerhard last year and Logic is still his baby, his passion, and the saga is by no means winding down. He did buy a full-spec Moog Modular System 55 re-issue to park in his office on the Apple spaceship just to wow the underlings though....



Dewdman42 said:


> But, its also true that LogicPro tends to get superficial updates...wizz bang features that look neat on the UI and makes it look like having a Mac is just so much better then having a PC....while they repeatedly ignore fundamental internal fixes that are badly needed in the environment engine and other places internally...going back for many years already..


Obviously a big focus for new features in Logic is whizz-bang stuff that looks nifty and will entice noobies into the fold. Established pros don't need convincing - we'll buy the new Apple machines on day one anyway. It's the fence-sitters who might be debating whether a MacBook is really worth four times the price of some plastic-chassis Acer or HP laptop who need convincing. So for sure there is some push and pull between Apple management and the Logic dev team in terms of what features vs fixes to devote resources to. 



Dewdman42 said:


> There are certain things about LogicPro's UI that I really like a lot compared to their competitors...I find it to be very intuitive in the typical easy use cases, but where it breaks down is when you start trying to do advanced routing and things like that...then you have to jump through a bunch of hoops, write Scripts, send midi over IAC and all while dealing with an antiquated environment engine that needs some work by now.


A couple of years ago I had a nice long sit-down at my studio with Clemens and Jan-Hinnert of the Logic dev team, where we discussed the shortcomings with Logic's surround implementation, and the workarounds I had developed in order to output surround stems to a separate layback recorder. At first, they wondered why I bothered, and why I wasn't just printing surround stems back into the Logic project, since all internal audio pathways in Logic are _n_ channels wide. After showing them the (admittedly small) advantages to using an entire separate Pro Tools rig as a layback recorder (admittedly an extravagant expense), they saw that using clusters of stereo outputs to provide multiple, parallel surround pathways to hardware outputs was clumsy. They spoke in German to each other for about two minutes, and then proposed a solution. It was that quick. Their solution was not to add one of those checkerboard-like routing grids as found in Pro Tools or MOTU AVB routing windows (they said this was archaic and clumsy and would never make it through the Apple simplicity filters upstairs), but rather to make a minor change to the Preferences dialog that would add 25 more surround sets to the output configuration. Instead of a single set of surround outputs, there could instead be "Surround-A through Surround-Z", which would be configured via a tabbed interface in the existing surround setup dialog, and accessed from channel output pop-ups as "Surround A-Z" instead of the single surround destination currently found there. 

Simple, elegant, and passes the Apple simplicity filter. 

Such a solution would not, however, have any provision for parent-child relationships between elements of a surround set, as you find in the excellent implementation in Pro Tools, so creating a quad set that is a sub-set of a larger 7.1 set would not be implemented (at least in their initial two-minute proposal) but would add very little in terms of new dialogs and menu options, while still massively improving the functionality. 

As we know, that proposed solution was never implemented - not yet anyway. But now that Logic has announced upcoming immersive audio support, perhaps a better solution is on the way. Full support for various immersive formats will probably need to accommodate some sort of parent-child relationships between elements in channel sets, so my hopes are high that an even slicker solution is incoming.

But my example of how quickly and cleanly Clemens and Jan-Hinnert came up with a solution on the spot serves to illustrate that the big brains are still in the house and still on the case. Clemens has been one of the primary architects of Logic's audio engine, plugins, and virtual instruments since day one - and he's still firing on all cylinders. 

I'm confidently anticipating whatever they come up with next. No fear here.


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## gsilbers (Jul 15, 2021)

el-bo said:


> The amount i haven't had to spend updating Logic, over the last 7-8 years, pretty much paid for my last Mac



Good for you.

on my end, ive paid about $100 a year for icloud.
Tons of $1 songs.
Several laptops.
Apple card recently.
AppletV
Apple Music.
Arcade (only for a bit).
Several iPhones cuz android suck on mac

As you missed in my quoite above. its all about leveraging these services for big tech.
Apple knows $300 might just pay for developing costs for Logic pro.
And companies are not out to be good to you. ITs all abot making money.
And leveraging prodcut and services is where the aim is at nowadays... and for a while.

So just like me, there might be tons of poeple who bought one service, or used the itunes, or apple music. OR was more easily sway because they had macOS. Which far outpaces the money made by some random guy who doesnt want to pay for upgrades. Therefore apple knows this. and they dont charge for those upgrades. but man they sure know how to hook poeple into other services. 
Trillon dollar company is not going to give free upgrades just because.


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 15, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Apple does not need to charge more for Logic in order to fund further improvements or development.



You are making an argument of logical fallacy now. I did not say the blanket statement that LogicPro needs to charge more money to fund all further improvements. You are arguing against that as if I did say that. Poor form mate. 

But back what I actually did say.... Apple is clearly subsidizing the development efforts on LogicPro. that is in fact going to limit how much and how deep they can spend on further developments. it doesn't mean nothing will happen and I didn't say that. It means they will have a budget that is based on how much they can justify spending in order to sell Macs.




charlieclouser said:


> Funding for Logic development comes mainly from sales of shiny new Apple hardware - and they spend a lot on the Logic team.



agreed! But that fundamentally imposes a limit on just how much they will do...and even more importantly...the specific _kind_ of development they will do will tend to be superficial shiny stuff on the outside that has show-offy in nature.



charlieclouser said:


> The Logic dev team is bigger than ever - certainly much bigger and more well-funded than it ever was in the Emagic era.



How big exactly is the team?



charlieclouser said:


> Gerhard and Clemens are still at the helm and very much in control and deeply involved. They're not just kicking back on a yacht somewhere -



Nobody said they were kicking back on a yacht. More poor form...




charlieclouser said:


> although they could certainly afford to. I hung out with Gerhard last year and Logic is still his baby, his passion, and the saga is by no means winding down. He did buy a full-spec Moog Modular System 55 re-issue to park in his office on the Apple spaceship just to wow the underlings though....



I could care less about how cool Gerard is to hang out with. I want to see LogicPro get bloody fixes in the internals that have been wanton for years. Since you are friends with him, you can tell him I said that! 




charlieclouser said:


> Obviously a big focus for new features in Logic is whizz-bang stuff that looks nifty and will entice noobies into the fold.



Exactly




charlieclouser said:


> Established pros don't need convincing - we'll buy the new Apple machines on day one anyway. It's the fence-sitters who might be debating whether a MacBook is really worth four times the price of some plastic-chassis Acer or HP laptop who need convincing. So for sure there is some push and pull between Apple management and the Logic dev team in terms of what features vs fixes to devote resources to.



I actually intend to run a Mac with or without LogicPro. In my view LogicPro is not nearly good enough to justify buying a Mac on that reason alone. But opinions will differ of course.


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## charlieclouser (Jul 15, 2021)

Another factor that reinforces my belief that Apple will never "abandon" the pro market is the "halo effect". 

Back when Ford released the 2005-06 Ford GT supercar, there was no expectation that anybody would cross-shop between a $40k Mustang and a $160k Ford GT - but they still stuck 'em on showroom floors so that people would ooh and aah and drool over them. Even if a customer was grounded in reality enough not to be thinking, "Someday....", they undoubtedly *were* thinking, "Dang. If Ford can make such a Ferrari-killer, even the six-banger Mustang must be pretty good." 

Ford didn't make the 05-06 Ford GT to make money (some speculate they broke even at best on the limited run), and the current GT, at nearly half a million, is still not a cash cow. With lots of carbon fiber and construction outsourced to MultiMatic, it's a halo product for sure. 

Same thing applies with Apple hardware. If Mike Dean is seen on his Twitch stream cooking up ill beats, or big movies being cut on a fully-bricked-out 28-core Mac Pro, then that goes a long way to bring new customers into the fold. So it's always going to be important for Apple to have the highest of the high end machines (and users), even if that high end is priced in the stratosphere, unreachable for civilians. 

It's a good look.


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## SupremeFist (Jul 15, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Another factor that reinforces my belief that Apple will never "abandon" the pro market is the "halo effect".


Yeah this was definitely a thing in the 90s/00s but then I think they lost sight of it for a number of years (cf Final Cut Pro X leading to a mass exodus of infuriated editors), but they've rediscovered the value of it in the last few years, with the new Mac Pro etc. Which is why I'm now more optimistic about the future of Apple (for our purposes) than I have been in a long while.


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 15, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> You are making an argument of logical fallacy now. I did not say the blanket statement that LogicPro needs to charge more money to fund all further improvements. You are arguing against that as if I did say that. Poor form mate.


Not arguing. Stating. Form, poor or not, does not concern me.


Dewdman42 said:


> How big exactly is the team?


I have no way of knowing, other than casual, but guarded, dinner-table conversation with Gerhard.


Dewdman42 said:


> Nobody said they were kicking back on a yacht. More poor form...


Well, it was *me* who said they could be kicking back on a yacht. And, again, form is not my concern.


Dewdman42 said:


> I could care less about how cool Gerard is to hang out with. I want to see LogicPro get bloody fixes in the internals that have been wanton for years. Since you are friends with him, you can tell him I said that!


I say the same things, and all I get is a sly grin in return.

But I don't really care. I still cruise along on Logic v10.4.8, not even using the new Sampler yet, because even a three-year-old version lets me work so fast, and I toss out film scores with very little hassle - and zero crashes. None of the new stuff, whether whizz-bang features, or fixes for pros, really affects the sound of my music or the tech quality of my deliveries all that much. I don't even notice these PDC issues people complain about, or automation being off the grid or whatever. I just do everything by ear, so if automation needs to be three ticks early, I just nudge it. It's just one of a zillion little tweaks that need to happen in the course of MIDI production - there's always stuff to be nudged and adjusted in order to be timed the way I want it. None of this stuff prevents me from making my music sound the way I want it to. 

As long as Logic doesn't crash and eat my song (and it never does on my rig) then I'm happy.


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 15, 2021)

Charlie please stop quoting me dishonestly. cheers


----------



## Alex Fraser (Jul 15, 2021)

So..
The current collective thinking is that Logic will continue to be freely updated for the foreseeable? Looks that way. Great to hear Charlie’s insider story.


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 15, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> So..
> The current collective thinking is that Logic will continue to be freely updated for the foreseeable? Looks that way. Great to hear Charlie’s insider story.



Yes I think Apple will continue to do that.


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 15, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Not arguing. Stating. Form, poor or not, does not concern me.
> 
> I have no way of knowing, other than casual, but guarded, dinner-table conversation with Gerhard.
> 
> ...


I think many of us long suspected you may have had an inside line on Logic.

And now we know, guess who’s going to get all our feature requests via DM? 😀😉

(Thanks, Charlie.)


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## charlieclouser (Jul 15, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> I think many of us long suspected you may have had an inside line on Logic.
> 
> And now we know, guess who’s going to get all our feature requests via DM? 😀😉
> 
> (Thanks, Charlie.)


Actually, I don't have any inside line on Logic. I'm not on the beta team, I'm not under NDA, nothing. Not anymore anyway. But I do know a few beta team members and I forward complaints to them from time to time, but who knows what happens to those comments.

I've known Gerhard since he would come in person to the Sam Ash store in the 1980's to show us Creator and Notator for the Atari ST, and try to convince Richie Ash to buy a few dozen copies. Richie would tell me to take a look at it, see if it was any good, and tell him how many I thought we could sell. I met Clemens in the late 1990's, long before the Apple buy-out, and went back and forth with him as EXS24 was first hitting the scene. I was an early and enthusiastic adopter of EXS and now I'm so deep into it with my own libraries that there's no going back!

35 years on, I'm still cordial with them all, and occasionally run into them at NAMM or wherever. Other friends are closer with Gerhard than I am, and that was how I wind up across the table from him at a birthday dinner or whatever from time to time.

But they don't tell me much, they're very tight-lipped about the future of Logic features. But I have been able to glean some info about the team, how life is under the Apple structure, etc. Although I can't do much more than invite them over to my studio to show them my workflow, talk shop, and dream about the future, it's still nice to see the level of expertise and passion they exhibit.


----------



## charlieclouser (Jul 15, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> Charlie please stop quoting me dishonestly. cheers


Oh for fuck's sake. I'll just stop quoting you altogether if it scrapes your bum so much. Ignored.


----------



## José Herring (Jul 15, 2021)

I have no skin in the game as I'm not a Logic user but it seems like Logic is going to get the new immersive audio capabilities before any other DAW. I'm jealous. I think this new audio codec is going to be the new standard delivery format.

So in that sense I think that Logic will be a contender for years to come. Every time I see somebody using Logic I always think that it was pretty advanced even back when it was Logic 10. So have no fears, it's going to be a solid choice for DAWS for a long time to come.


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## lastmessiah (Jul 15, 2021)

I would hope they are working on updating the interfaces for some of the instruments. Like ES2, which still looks like 2003.


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## ism (Jul 15, 2021)

At some point, especially with all apple pencil, the M1, Sidecar, the convergence of iOS and osx, I have to hope that we'll get a better ecosystem integration laptop and table devices. 

Then you have Logic remote - which is wonderfully easy to use and to connect. .. but doesn't seem to actually do anything terribly helpful yet.


But looking at Staffpad, I hope, gives us a glimpse of possible futures. Especially given that Logic already has perfectly passible notation, and that the M1 is chalked full of neurotrophic cores (handy for handwriting recognition, transcription of humming etc), surely it's not hard to imagine 

Moreover, the Staffpad engine is quite stunning in how much it can do with so little. Sometimes the staffpad rendering is thought to sound better than the full Kontakt, and if true, this is because in absence for the need to real time playback, the engine is not only a great deal more efficient, but can generate a better rendering that Kontakt. 

An ecosystem that intelligently integrates the best of the UX in Logic and Staffpad, and the best of VST/Kontakt and the Staffpad engine, could really push orchestral sampling and composing with orchestral samples forward - if someone can get it right.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 15, 2021)

Did a mock-up in Logic again recently and it was smooth sailing really. Love the workflow. Only thing I really miss is nested folders so I can build out a big template.


----------



## Vik (Jul 15, 2021)

Wunderhorn said:


> Well, well... with the M-series it seems that with every RAM upgrade (and the M2 is rumored to crap out at 32GB) you'll have to buy a whole new computer. Definitely lucrative!


OTOH, it certainly makes sense for Apple to release what they have – when it's ready. Also, it's easy for a user to accept some loss when he s/he sells one Mac in order to get a newer one, and this way, Apple increases it's market share.



Wunderhorn said:


> And people fall for that with the marketing fairy-tale that RAM with the M1 magically quadruples.



Not sure if Apple has marketed that actually, but some users for sure claims that one will get away with less RAM on Apple Silicon Macs. And maybe it actually will, especially now when PCI5-based computers will pop up. IIRR, the newest Mac Pro is PCI3-based, while the M1 Macs are PCI4 based. When PCI5 and DDR5 will become the norm, we may actually get a way with less RAM – both on Intel and Apple silicon.


Wunderhorn said:


> there is now a bit less focus on pleasing orchestral/media composers lately. Cubase on the other hand...


Some major VI-related features (Articulation Sets, Freeze and Track on/off which releases all sample RAM when necessary) are actually relatively new achievements in Logic which may cause Logic to attract more VI users, which again may result in more functionality for users like us?


charlieclouser said:


> Apple does not need to charge more for Logic in order to fund further improvements or development.


Maybe, but if they would have charged a small amount for major/ish updates, that could fund more people working on Logic's development, don't you think?


----------



## Alex Fraser (Jul 15, 2021)

lastmessiah said:


> I would hope they are working on updating the interfaces for some of the instruments. Like ES2, which still looks like 2003.


They’ve made high def versions of Sculpture and Ultrabeat, but didn’t fundamentally alter the look in any way. So that’s probably the direction.

I agree though. I live in the app daily and I’m still taken aback when opening one of the older low res plugins. Actually, considering how much emphasis Apple puts on look and feel, I’m surprised they’ve got away with it for so long. 😅


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## Loïc D (Jul 15, 2021)

My hopes : 
- nested folders with full color range
- search 
- macros like Studio 1 does
- OSC open driver that can send/receive messages without the need of 3rd party
- be able to rearrange freely tracks in the mixer


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## sourcefor (Jul 15, 2021)

el-bo said:


> I Got You!



annoying ads on every YouTube, it’s killing me making me not want to watch anymore!


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## Begfred (Jul 15, 2021)

Vik said:


> Maybe, but if they would have charged a small amount for major/ish updates, that could fund more people working on Logic's development, don't you think?


Every single Logic Pro sale is at least 1 Mac sale. So Apple just do the math…


----------



## sourcefor (Jul 15, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Not arguing. Stating. Form, poor or not, does not concern me.
> 
> I have no way of knowing, other than casual, but guarded, dinner-table conversation with Gerhard.
> 
> ...


Man I need you to come over and get my system working smoothly…lol! As much as I love Logic plug-ins, I wish Logic played well with other plug-ins!


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## sourcefor (Jul 15, 2021)

No need to argue about anything on here, everything is just a discussion, Charlie (Clouser)is nice enough to give us a DETAILED explanation of his side of the story on many fronts, and people see the need to pick him apart, he never has bad form in opinion! come on lets play nice!


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## dgburns (Jul 15, 2021)

@charlieclouser - good points all round. Don’t get frustrated, your input is welcomed, as always.

Now back to smoking my BBC pipe with my white labcoat.

If I was being honest, and I am usually straight up, I would say the current iteration of LPX is likely the best the software has ever been. It just keeps getting better. Sure there are philosophies that they hard wired that I don’t agree with, but when the shit hits the fan, I punch it with Logic.

I especially like using LPX colourizer. My LPX now looks exactly like I always wanted it to. Not a huge change, but it’s closer to the v7 look.

Good times. Peace out broheims.


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## charlieclouser (Jul 15, 2021)

sourcefor said:


> Man I need you to come over and get my system working smoothly…lol! As much as I love Logic plug-ins, I wish Logic played well with other plug-ins!


Weirdly I have almost zero plugins that don't pass validation and work just fine. Here and there I find one or two that crash validation the first time around, but going to the plugin manager and doing the "reset and rescan selection" thing brings 'em back in line. Voltage Modular was the latest offender that needed this treatment.

But Logic never, and I mean *never* crashes over here. Today's plugin count - 1,412. 

Mac Pro 6,1 12-core 64gb RAM, Mojave v10.14.6, Logic v10.4.8. Logic v10.5 also works but I don't use it yet, and if I want to go to v10.6 or whatever's current I need to go beyond Mojave so I'm waiting cause everything's working so well.


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## sourcefor (Jul 15, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> Weirdly I have almost zero plugins that don't pass validation and work just fine. Here and there I find one or two that crash validation the first time around, but going to the plugin manager and doing the "reset and rescan selection" thing brings 'em back in line. Voltage Modular was the latest offender that needed this treatment.
> 
> But Logic never, and I mean *never* crashes over here. Today's plugin count - 1,412.
> 
> Mac Pro 6,1 12-core 64gb RAM, Mojave v10.14.6, Logic v10.4.8. Logic v10.5 also works but I don't use it yet, and if I want to go to v10.6 or whatever's current I need to go beyond Mojave so I'm waiting cause everything's working so well.


Yeah smart move! Do you do a clean install when getting a new machine or just migrate? Thanks!


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## proxima (Jul 15, 2021)

I'd love to see a UI redesign of Sculpture, but I'm not holding my breath for it (or my NI wish for Absynth).

At this point, Apple seems to have totally abandoned paid software upgrades. They used to try to eek out some money from people upgrading Mac OS, but it's far better to support fewer version of OS X for security upgrades and just treat the hardware itself as the subscription. For those consumers who hate subscriptions, it's a pretty great model - you get your Logic version that your hardware and OS version supports just as long as you want, and buy some new hardware and the newest version is still yours.

By itself, Logic probably doesn't keep _too_ many people "stuck" on Mac, but it plays a role for plenty. Just like iMessage, and countless other Apple-exclusive tie-ins that work better together. I came from being a primarily Linux user, and while I tried Windows for DAW and gaming purposes, I found myself drawn to the Apple ecosystem where stuff (mostly) just works. 

Honestly, if Apple abandoned Logic or let it lag too far, I'd probably switch to Cubase on Windows, since it apparently runs better than Cubase on Mac. I'm trying not to tie myself too much to Logic-only plugins (e.g. using Omnisphere over Alchemy) in case Cubase makes a compelling argument to switch at some point.


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## jonathanwright (Jul 15, 2021)

el-bo said:


> There seem to be quite a few people currently trying to make a career out of blowing hot-air about what they predict various tech industries are doing behind closed doors. So I'm curious what you mean by "Apple is apparently..." and "some reports are saying...".
> 
> 
> They may well be talking hypothesising that to be the case, for the future. But right now, they've just released close-to their most powerful portables as their lower-priced entry-point. They don't look ready to drop full computers quite yet.
> ...


This is a thread asking us to ‘pontificate on the future of Logic Pro’. In other words what we think might happen.

That‘s exactly what I’m doing, my ideas could be completely wrong, so could yours, but none of us know, hence the title. 

FYI: I’ve read several sources saying the iPad apps are in development, probably the most reliable (although not always) is Jon Prosser. Apparently he’s 100% confident they’ll be released this year. Time will tell I guess.


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## charlieclouser (Jul 16, 2021)

sourcefor said:


> Yeah smart move! Do you do a clean install when getting a new machine or just migrate? Thanks!


I almost never migrate or install a new OS on top of an old one. When I switched from Yosemite to Mojave, I also swapped my factory internal SSD to a larger one from OWC, and it required that it be formatted with APFS, so it was a start from scratch situation. OWC gives you a USB3 enclosure to stick your factory drive in, so I can still switch-launch from that to run Yosemite for my beloved Redmatica KeyMap on occasion. 

I've done so many build-outs of boot drives over the years, and I don't mind doing it from scratch even though it takes days to get everything sorted. It's nice to start with a clean slate, re-evaluate, and skip any abandonware that doesn't work on the new OS - and not drag a zillion cache files and prefs with me. Same when building new templates in a new update of Logic - I just build it from scratch by hand so I know it's clean. 

I'll probably leave these Mac Pros on Mojave, and only use Big Sur or Monterey on either a Mac Pro 7,1 or an M-series Mac if a strong one ever comes out. Not really loving the idea of another Intel Mac as I am not a huge believer in Intel. Their improvements seem to come in pretty small increments and are costly. Even the mighty 28-core Mac Pro can be brought to its knees with enough plugins, which should not happen at that price. I could absolutely work for the rest of my life on my current system, so I may be okay to wait until M2 or M9 or M989393 chips arrive.


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 16, 2021)

proxima said:


> At this point, Apple seems to have totally abandoned paid software upgrades. They used to try to eek out some money from people upgrading Mac OS, but it's far better to support fewer version of OS X for security upgrades and just treat the hardware itself as the subscription. For those consumers who hate subscriptions, it's a pretty great model - you get your Logic version that your hardware and OS version supports just as long as you want, and buy some new hardware and the newest version is still yours.


Yep, I tend to agree. 
As a (recently joined) member of the grey beard club who remembers silly money for 10 seconds of mono sampling, I still can't quite believe the lifetime value of a single Logic purchase.

I use my Mac(s) for everything, not just Logic, so it seems balmy that my main work tool is essentially free at this point...as I watch fellow pros in other industries fork out money to Adobe in a never ending cycle. And they still have to use Macs.


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## el-bo (Jul 16, 2021)

jonathanwright said:


> This is a thread asking us to ‘pontificate on the future of Logic Pro’. In other words what we think might happen.
> 
> That‘s exactly what I’m doing, my ideas could be completely wrong, so could yours, but none of us know, hence the title.
> 
> FYI: I’ve read several sources saying the iPad apps are in development, probably the most reliable (although not always) is Jon Prosser. Apparently he’s 100% confident they’ll be released this year. Time will tell I guess.


I'm not sure why you took my post as trying to silence your opinion. No intention of the sort. That doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to counter your opinions with my own, which, like you said, also have the potential to be wrong.

But back to your main point: I don't see "several sources" making anything more or less likely. Maybe someone has broken NDA, but would several have done the same, or is everyone just parroting the same initial article? (That's a rhetorical question, of course).

You may be right, and we may have an iPad version of Logic within the year. But aside from my own theories, I'm quite convinced by the argument that the UI is just not appropriate for mobile use. If one would speculate on how a stripped-down, mobile-friendly version of Logic might look, wouldn't it just be Garageband?

We'll just have to wait and see


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## sourcefor (Jul 16, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> I almost never migrate or install a new OS on top of an old one. When I switched from Yosemite to Mojave, I also swapped my factory internal SSD to a larger one from OWC, and it required that it be formatted with APFS, so it was a start from scratch situation. OWC gives you a USB3 enclosure to stick your factory drive in, so I can still switch-launch from that to run Yosemite for my beloved Redmatica KeyMap on occasion.
> 
> I've done so many build-outs of boot drives over the years, and I don't mind doing it from scratch even though it takes days to get everything sorted. It's nice to start with a clean slate, re-evaluate, and skip any abandonware that doesn't work on the new OS - and not drag a zillion cache files and prefs with me. Same when building new templates in a new update of Logic - I just build it from scratch by hand so I know it's clean.
> 
> I'll probably leave these Mac Pros on Mojave, and only use Big Sur or Monterey on either a Mac Pro 7,1 or an M-series Mac if a strong one ever comes out. Not really loving the idea of another Intel Mac as I am not a huge believer in Intel. Their improvements seem to come in pretty small increments and are costly. Even the mighty 28-core Mac Pro can be brought to its knees with enough plugins, which should not happen at that price. I could absolutely work for the rest of my life on my current system, so I may be okay to wait until M2 or M9 or M989393 chips arrive.


Thanks, I can always count on you for a Gracious detailed reply! Much appreciated!


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## NYC Composer (Jul 18, 2021)

@charlieclouser 

re 48th Street, you forgot Rudy’s Music Stop.

Also, did you know your counterpart Rick Stevenson across the street at the big M? I bought a lot of gear from him back in the day?

Oh, and did you know Judd Goldrich went to work for Guitar Center for years and now works at Sweetwater??


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## Loïc D (Jul 18, 2021)

Actually, I wish Apple makes Logic Remote evolve to a more powerful, configurable solution.
I don’t care much about remote mixer but I dream of drawing my notes and CC lanes with a pencil.


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## SupremeFist (Jul 18, 2021)

Loïc D said:


> Actually, I wish Apple makes Logic Remote evolve to a more powerful, configurable solution.
> I don’t care much about remote mixer but I dream of drawing my notes and CC lanes with a pencil.


You can already do this with Sidecar! Just open a new piano-roll window and move it to the ipad.


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## Vik (Jul 18, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> You can already do this with Sidecar! Just open a new piano-roll window and move it to the ipad.


Can you draw notes in the same way one would do it with pencil and paper?


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## SupremeFist (Jul 18, 2021)

Vik said:


> Can you draw notes in the same way one would do it with pencil and paper?


No.


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## Martin S (Jul 18, 2021)

Vik said:


> Can you draw notes in the same way one would do it with pencil and paper?


This guy briefly shows it in this video:



[edit: sorry, that was automation, not drawing notes in piano roll or notation window]

For notation in sidecar you can use the pencil instead of a mouse:


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## proxima (Jul 18, 2021)

I'd love to see articulation switching brought to logic remote. I think you can hack things up with smart controls but it doesn't seem like a good solution.


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