# The Death of Melody



## Reid Rosefelt

This video has nearly half a million views so far.

Despite the clickbait title, it doesn't suggest that melody is really dead, just that it seems to be out of fashion in contemporary music, where songs like Lady Gaga's "Poker Face" have one note, and many other songs have two or three notes. 

It mainly talks about pop music, but also recent work by Hans Zimmer. 

Thoughts?


----------



## patrick76

TigerTheFrog said:


> This video has nearly half a million views so far.
> 
> Despite the clickbait title, it doesn't suggest that melody is really dead, just that it seems to be out of fashion in contemporary music, where songs like Lady Gaga's "Poker Face" have one note, and many other songs have two or three notes.
> 
> It mainly talks about pop music, but also recent work by Hans Zimmer.
> 
> Thoughts?



Clickbait indeed. "Simple" melodies in pop music. That's pop music. Pretty much.

Also the image of Billie Eilish, clickbait again. And he talks about one of her songs.... She has plenty of songs with melodies that are in no way different or somehow less than previous pop melodies.

"Death of Melody". Clickbait!


----------



## JohnG

I'm on a project where they want almost constant melody -- not motifs, melodies. It's great.


----------



## Thomas Kallweit

I guess he's right.
Imo especially longer melodies with lots of notes going up and down or moving (in a wider octave spectrum) are rare these days.

Sound-Design seems to have taken much more room on nearly everything which is processed.
Plus clever arrangements, which can help also poor melodies with a few notes to get prominent enough in the whole thing. So I guess arrangement and sounddesign are the winners here. Maybe melodies can appear as pathetic ear-catchers which are not welcome anymore. And of course they can be annoying. But also wonderful.

I'm a melody-fan - so in a way old school. It's a huge territory in any ways nevertheless.
EDM, HipHop were some sucessful forerunners to get away from the melody-idiom.

Then came the epic boom change for the movies. Short attention span plus high tension = instant broth, simply consumable. Maybe this. That's why I like that there is still folk/acoustic music on the opposite.


----------



## Desire Inspires

Melody, Schmelody.

Where is the beat?!?


----------



## Geoff Grace

Lady Gaga's and Bradley Cooper's "Shallow" finally fell off Billboard's Hot 100 chart this week, after a 45-week run, so I'd take "melody is dead" comments with a grain of salt.

Lady Gaga & Bradley Cooper's 'Shallow' Wraps Hot 100 Run as Longest-Charting Best Original Song Winner

Nonetheless, I'll grant that melody is not as crucial to hit songs as it used to be back in the heyday of George Gershwin and Cole Porter. It was already in decline when "Wild Thing" hit the charts—with The Beatles' "Yesterday" being more the exception than the rule.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## patrick76

God, i find the video insufferable. He lists 4 pop songs and says "it's not cool to write a good melody anymore". So in Billie Eilish's "Ocean Eyes" or Lady Gaga's "Shallow" they weren't trying to write good melodies? Absolutely ridiculous.


----------



## Dave Connor

The link says no video. In the case of Hans Zimmer, I think the opposite is true. If he’s deliberately setting up a groove where the idea is rhythmic or percussive for its own sake that would be one thing (to say, “no melody here.”) But when he writes deliberate melodies whether lyrical or a line above the harmonies as a texture, he’s top drawer. He steers around cliche and expectation masterfully (the mark of all the great composers of the past.) He also exploits harmony with melody in unusual, fresh and interesting ways. Even if it’s just for a bar or two. He’s never lazy that way.

I don’t know why people don’t latch onto his melodic writing because it’s everywhere in his music. There’s a two part bit in the low strings in the da Vinci Code (I think when the butler gets it or thereabouts.) It’s two melodies in counterpoint; highly dramatic, that is drop dead gorgeous and serves the film marvelously. In the classical way, the harmony is resultant from the two lines. So that’s multi-melodic writing which is a deeper level of just crafting a tune or a happy tune or whatever people are calling “melody.”


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

I think, it is not only about the melody which causes that dumbing down. Also harmony and timbre diversity went this path.I remember a couple of years ago I was reading a blog of a composer which was saying in one of his articles that he would advice not using Dom7 chords because they do sound old fashioned. And that is symptomatic that lots of things in music are reduced or (over) simplified these days.
And that leads to another thing: Music is because of its over simplification sounding very similiar if not the same. 

(It feels like when I am out in the city and see so many women trying to look like a Heidi Klum-> They look all built by the same factory. Look at the fast fashion industry. Imo that things are a global phenomenon and isn´t only in music but in many different parts in life.

Smartphones tend to have more design diversity in the earlier days. Remember where you could just identify a model because of its shape? Look at mainstream midrange cars. I think there is a global trend of _equalisation_ going on. It applies even peoples opinions. In Germany there are political debates all over the place. Either you are this or that, but there is no grey nunanced area anymore as it feels to me.

A:"Liking potatoes?"
B:"Yes"
A:"But not liking french fries? Well then you don´t like potatoes at all!"
B:"You must be right"
)

Music is just one category of it. This video analyses lots of more aspects in depth which I saw 2 years ago. The millenial Whoop is a funny term in the video but matter of fact is, that device is somehow very exemplary for the path what music took.



PS: I like some songs from the backstreet boys though, so I guess I am a cultural philistine.


----------



## Jaap

We have been nagging over these things since, well guess since the beginning of nagging 

Every generation is in some sort complaining how things are too simple nowadays and that they feel something essential is lost and yes, it's also quite common to say "yes but now really!!"
When I was in my teens in the 90's, it was said by the hippy generation that the music was too simple and that back then it was so much advanced, but in the same time they heard from their parents that the Beatles and the Stones where too simple (4 chords only? and gosh that hair!) and that jazz was much better etc etc.
This will be a thing of all times and it's a good thing. The younger generation needs to break free from us and go their own way and we somehow need to adjust to that, but also again cherish the moments from our own youth and from the things we like. And in 20 years a new generation will start complaining again


----------



## givemenoughrope

So write a melody then.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

It's not just that the melodies are missing, or are generally weak. Everything's missing. I sometimes hear pop music somewhere and I'm always completely taken aback and appalled. I tend to forget how bad it really is, but that's just the state of mind out there in the outside world.

Can't say I really care. Pop music isn't music. It's not meant to be, and it's not what the target audience is interested in. It's sonication and low-level animation of absent-minded and lowbrow masses. It's like debating the finer points of preparation, taste and nutrition values of fast food. Seems just of out place.


----------



## Geoff Grace

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> PS: I like some songs from the backstreet boys though, so I guess I am a cultural philistine.


Perhaps you'll like this then. I thought it was fun to watch anyway:



_(Sorry for the off-topic post.)_

Best,

Geoff

P.S. The keyboard player in the video above is Jack Conte, the CEO and co-founder of Patreon.


----------



## Nils Neumann

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Music is just one category of it. This video analyses lots of more aspects in depth which I saw 2 years ago. The millenial Whoop is a funny term in the video but matter of fact is, that device is somehow very exemplary for the path what music took.
> 
> 
> 
> PS: I like some songs from the backstreet boys though, so I guess I am a cultural philistine.




Please watch this video and question if the video you linked should be used in any type of qualifed argument about (pop) music.


----------



## DS_Joost

Nils Neumann said:


> Please watch this video and question if the video you linked should be used in any type of qualifed argument about (pop) music.




I was just about to post the same reaction video! It's fantastic!


----------



## Shonx

Nils Neumann said:


> Please watch this video and question if the video you linked should be used in any type of qualifed argument about (pop) music.




That Tantacrul video was a great riposte. Thoughty 2 clearly doesn't have a Scooby Doo.


----------



## Diablo IV

patrick76 said:


> Clickbait indeed. "Simple" melodies in pop music. That's pop music. Pretty much.
> 
> Also the image of Billie Eilish, clickbait again. And he talks about one of her songs.... She has plenty of songs with melodies that are in no way different or somehow less than previous pop melodies.
> 
> "Death of Melody". Clickbait!




Thanks for typing Billie Eilish, I didn't know who she was, I just opened the first result: Bad guy. awesome song.


----------



## gussunkri

Geoff Grace said:


> Perhaps you'll like this then. I thought it was fun to watch anyway:
> 
> 
> 
> _(Sorry for the off-topic post.)_
> 
> Best,
> 
> Geoff
> 
> P.S. The keyboard player in the video above is Jack Conte, the CEO and co-founder of Patreon.



I like anything with Sam on bass. Knower!


----------



## TomislavEP

Personally, I think that coming up with an original, simple and singable melody is a true pinnacle of music creation. Technology, sound design, being creative with arranging of the already finished elements is all great, but the basic musical elements - melodies, harmonies and rhythms must always come first.

The fact that most types of modern music are more and more away from these principles is only a reflection of the sad attitude of an average listener toward music. Most of the people nowadays simply don't have time, let alone will to appreciate the music as an art form and to truly experience it like it should be experienced. Instead, they're considering music as nothing more than a background distraction. The basic rule of mass media - give the people what they want (the line from "Tomorrow Never Dies"). This is evident in genres that are generally geared toward the masses, but unfortunately also in much more sophisticated ones, like film music.


----------



## patrick76

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Either you are this or that, but there is no grey nunanced area anymore as it feels to me.


Has there ever really been a grey nuanced area? I would say not really, not for the masses. I think the dividing lines are pretty bad right now, but it seems like these things go in cycles.


----------



## Tim_Wells

Went the way of guitar solos.

It seems that a large number of people want a lot of space in their music now. It allows them to fill in their own details.


----------



## dgburns

If you think about it, imposing a melody means imprinting a POV. And not all stories are enhanced with that approach. But even High Concept Scripted drama requires 'something' more then an ambiguous underscore.

I also think more and more that it's all out there, it's just not always in the limelight. I like melody personally, I don't like working on stuff that asks me to be anonymous. But's that's just personal.

Melody is hard to sell at times, asking so much of your storyteller and stakeholders, imho.


----------



## LamaRose

There may be a ray of hope if the lawsuits continue, thus forcing a return to more nuanced, singular melodies... but who will write them, who can write them? 

And more importantly, would modern listeners embrace a return to Steely Dan and company?


----------



## givemenoughrope

Tim_Wells said:


> Went the way of guitar solos.
> 
> It seems that a large number of people want a lot of space in their music now. It allows them to fill in their own details.



Totally. That’s what a lot of minimalism is to me. You just end up hypnotized by the waves coming and it becomes more about you and less about the music. The phrase or chord progression you just heard playing again and again just reinforces the idea as a great one bc it’s one you already know.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Tim_Wells said:


> It seems that a large number of people want a lot of space in their music now. It allows them to fill in their own details.



To me it seems more like them having a mirror image of what's going on in their heads.


----------



## givemenoughrope

^Exactly. But pop music has always largely been about escapism.


----------



## patrick76

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> It's not just that the melodies are missing, or are generally weak. Everything's missing. I sometimes hear pop music somewhere and I'm always completely taken aback and appalled. I tend to forget how bad it really is, but that's just the state of mind out there in the outside world.
> 
> Can't say I really care. Pop music isn't music. It's not meant to be, and it's not what the target audience is interested in. It's sonication and low-level animation of absent-minded and lowbrow masses. It's like debating the finer points of preparation, taste and nutrition values of fast food. Seems just of out place.


The fast food thing is funny. Pop music is an easy target. But, "pop music isn't music"? That's a pretty giant statement. There's a pretty enormous amount of music that falls under that category. I can't help smirking a bit too considering some of the bands you like (which I like too) because I well know many would make the same criticism about them.

One other thought, I am guessing most of the people saying that melody is dead in pop music aren't the biggest consumers of pop music and therefore perhaps not the best suited to make that assertion. Ok, I agree that there is a bunch of modern pop without good melodies, but imo that has always been true.

Well, no more defending pop music from me. That one response video that was posted did a much better job than I ever could of making a coherent argument...


----------



## Reid Rosefelt

Nils Neumann said:


> Please watch this video and question if the video you linked should be used in any type of qualifed argument about (pop) music.


----------



## VinRice

This argument is at least 100-400 hundred years old.

@Jimmy Hellfire gets it. Pop music is not an end in itself - it's one facet of a 360° product (marketing jargon) designed to sell to kids to help them face/explain/relate to their hormonally-driven angst and inner conflicts. It's time-sensitive cultural ephemera. It also is, or was, huge business, so an entire industry of extremely skilled practitioners has grown up around it with the result that much of it can be appreciated in its own right. Melody is not 'dying', that's a preposterous notion. A single note melody is still a deliberate melodic choice reflecting cultural resonances that the target audience will appreciate - even if they don't know why. A new fashion will arise at some point - it always does.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

There was a period around the late '70s when it was a dig on a composer to say he/she used chords and melody.

Seriously, I read that more than once!


----------



## MartinH.

Nils Neumann said:


> Please watch this video and question if the video you linked should be used in any type of qualifed argument about (pop) music.



Good video! A while ago I thought thoughty2 had some interesting content, but in the meantime I arrived at the conclusion that I better stop and close his videos before he has finished saying his name, when I accidentally click on one. It's scary how many subscribers he got with that nonsense.





Diablo3 said:


> Thanks for typing Billie Eilish, I didn't know who she was, I just opened the first result: Bad guy. awesome song.


----------



## Reid Rosefelt

I think this followup video by the "Death of Melody" guy is better than the first one.


----------



## YaniDee

At this rate, the only song with a melody that people will still sing will be "Happy Birthday"....


----------



## Lawson.

douggibson said:


> Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong,



This is a little off-topic, but jeez I would hate to have you as a teacher! I'm fine with people saying something's _wrong_ but at least explain _why _in something other than "total shit don't do this".


----------



## Farkle

douggibson said:


> Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong,
> 
> 
> Total shit. Don't get your learning from youtube videos. Bedroom Philosophy.



I'm surprised you had such an aggressive response to this. For what it's worth, I thought that many of the core concepts of the video, as well as the reference music (Tchaikovsky), were really solid. Certainly good food for compositional thought. Do you have an alternate structure to thinking about melody, philosophically?

Mike


----------



## dgburns

The Death of Melody

what a great name for a band (yes this is wrong on so many levels, lol)


----------



## Reid Rosefelt

I'm asking this question innocently, not because I know the answer, but because I'm interested in your opinions. 

As many of you make it, do you think contemporary trailer music is driven more by sound design and the rhythm of big drums or by melody? What do clients want?

Sometimes--definitely not always--I watch six trailers in the theatre and feel like they all sound like the same movie. This tends to happen when I go to an action or horror movie and they string together trailers that are the same genre.

Here's THE BATTLE OF ALGIERS trailer from 1966, which is a very intense film, with a lot of violence. Do you think it would have been done differently today? (Music credit is shared by Ennio Morricone and director Gillo Pontecorvo)


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

This may be obvious, but musical styles (or any other styles) will never be permanent until history freezes.

We had 12-tone music, ah-tonal music, and minimalism last century. And free jazz during the civil rights era. Minimalism. (Today we have pushbutton music. Oy.)

What was/is going on during all those periods? "Traditional" melody came and went.


----------



## fantasy sound

Leonard Meyer's books, as douggibson mentioned, are quite nice to read.
I just remembered having read his "_Style and Music_" and enjoyed a lot.
His "gap-fill" concept is well established, and to me it seems to be one of a few persuasive theories that can logically explain how good melodies in classical music actually work.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Another random thought about melody: you can study certain things about it and internalize adages like "reach for a wide leap when you're stuck." And you can certainly learn things like macro-form (whatever you'd call that), recognize that a passage is an episode, and so on.

There are also techniques for when you're stuck, like reharmonizing an existing melody and then writing a countermelody to it as your melody.

But I'll wager that almost every great "traditional" melody came to the person who wrote it in real time, without a lot of analysis of the intervals. It might have come after the chords, and the composer may have known what scale he/she was using, but I can't imagine thinking analytically about what's going on the same way you might with other aspects of music.

I can come up with arguments to that, but I think it's true.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

douggibson said:


> The distinction however is between coming up with vs. developing



Very true.


----------



## Rob

douggibson said:


> Now for Swan lake
> 
> 
> See this guy declares melody is "ONE single line". IMO there are at least 3 important dimension.
> 
> Vertically (a moment in time), linearly (moving forward- and what he describes), and contextually retrospective (current sounds in relationship to what has been heard previously)
> 
> See he has no idea about the third. Read the writings of Janeck. They really influenced me.
> He talks at great length about the "inner echo" of sound, and the importance of how long each pitch stays in our ear.
> 
> Music in the brain – the overtone series, the structural foundation of Western music, is hardwired inside us, and the brain creates its own sounds that may not appear in a music score.
> 
> Read the work of Leonard Meyer. He pioneered the concept of
> 
> Form = Memory & Expectation.
> 
> Ever recorded in a "dead-100% dry studio ?" Ever done a midi rendition of your score only to find your tempos too fast in real life ?
> 
> Do this simple experiment yourself. First sing the major scale up and down one octave. Now sing the minor.
> 
> What you will feel....and you can actually feel this is that the tonic, the octave, and then the 5th are the "Rest notes" It's odd, until you look at how that relates to the overtone series. This is why locrain, or the octatonic scale is so hard to sing up and down an octave. The 5th is gone, and that is part of what ALL people latch onto.
> 
> So, if you can accept my observation of : A) People use memory (a tone rings on in our mind even when the music stops for about 1-2 seconds) when listening to try and predict patterns (aka expectation) and then B) The tonic, 5th and octave are so deeply hard wired into our brains that those differ enough from the more "color" tones that define each mode, and
> 
> 
> now let's look at swan lake:
> 
> On paper....of course it's one line. But give it a listen.
> 
> Now consider this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is how (more or less, I'm going by ear here) the first two measures would look on the page.
> 
> Consider this ..... or rather to say it more clearly: Consider the polyphonic possibility of:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or another way to show this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be continued yet again



shouldn't those be C#s?


----------



## Daniel James

Man I just ignore shit like this. Its a new wave of music Youtubers who realised negativity sells. "Why does rock music suck" "The Death Of Melody" "10 reasons Hans killed film score" etc Its all just utter bullshit that I guarantee you no one who actually listens to the music, outside of composers and music producers, would ever notice or give a fuck.

I wish they would spend more time bringing to positivity back to the industry instead of just shitting on everything from their high horse. Seen a few channels I like go down this route recently, it's sad. Ah well gotta get them clicks.

-DJ


----------



## robgb

I never take what anyone says about trends in music seriously. It's all bullshit.


----------



## Daniel James

robgb said:


> I never take what anyone says about trends in music seriously. It's all bullshit.



Amen!

-DJ


----------



## chocobitz825

Daniel James said:


> Amen!
> 
> -DJ



but..but...millennials killed music, shopping malls and fast food chains!


----------



## Lawson.

douggibson said:


> _lots and lots and lots of text_



Interesting that in that entire wall of text you wrote, you literally just confirm my point. If it works for you and your students, by all means go for it. I personally don't teach like that and I don't like teachers who do, but again do whatever you want man.

Also, genuine question: after the first three sentences, what does anything have to do with anything relevant? It's all just excess verbiage to prove what exactly? I would say you went in-depth with the second part of my statement except you just took it out of context and proceeded to tell a story that had nothing to do with it and then add an entire BTW that also had nothing to do with anything whatsoever.

EDIT: I didn't see that there was a whole new page of posts when I wrote this so this all may (ironically enough) be completely irrelevant now.


----------



## Saxer

Lawson. said:


> ...but jeez I would hate to have you as a teacher!


Thanks for triggering Doug's output! Really interesting stuff!


----------



## gamma-ut

douggibson said:


> You think that guy in front of her is going to play nice, and hold her hand, and would accept a "I'm glad your not my teacher" if he gave a brief answer ?



For some reason I get the impression you are more of a sieve than a teacher.


----------



## FinGael

Daniel James said:


> Man I just ignore shit like this. Its a new wave of music Youtubers who realised negativity sells. "Why does rock music suck" "The Death Of Melody" "10 reasons Hans killed film score" etc Its all just utter bullshit that I guarantee you no one who actually listens to the music, outside of composers and music producers, would ever notice or give a fuck.
> 
> I wish they would spend more time bringing to positivity back to the industry instead of just shitting on everything from their high horse. Seen a few channels I like go down this route recently, it's sad. Ah well gotta get them clicks.
> 
> -DJ



First of all, let me say; positivity is definitely a good thing

To me being honest and true, and speaking my truth is important too. (Maybe it's a cultural thing; we Finns are usually awful at small talk, and speak what we truly think, which can be problematic for people coming from a different culture).

I have watched a lot of your videos Daniel, and I like you, and think that you are really talented and a nice fellow. Still I think that most of the mainstream music today is simply crap, something that has drifted _too far away from humanity_ - so why support industry like that?

I think that it is good that there is a rising voice of critique. There kind of hasn't been one for a while. I think there is more to that, than people just clickbaiting when surfing on that trend. 

And I truly love music (with all of my heart and soul). And I don't think I am just old-fashioned or a negative person - according to what I hear from people around me. 


_

_


----------



## chocobitz825

FinGael said:


> First of all, let me say; positivity is definitely a good thing
> 
> To me being honest and true, and speaking my truth is important too. (Maybe it's a cultural thing; we Finns are usually awful at small talk, and speak what we truly think, which can be problematic for people coming from a different culture).
> 
> I have watched a lot of your videos Daniel, and I like you, and think that you are really talented and a nice fellow. Still I think that most of the mainstream music today is simply crap, something that has drifted _too far away from humanity_ - so why support industry like that?
> 
> I think that it is good that there is a rising voice of critique. There kind of hasn't been one for a while. I think there is more to that, than people just clickbaiting when surfing on that trend.
> 
> And I truly love music (with all of my heart and soul). And I don't think I am just old-fashioned or a negative person - according to what I hear from people around me.



it'd be a more valid argument if it wasn't a rehashing of what every previous generation says about the next generation of music. Music isn't dying, just the music industry that's warped our perception of it for a good 100+ years. This is just another trend of music and like all others, it too shall someday pass. the kids growing up on the music of today will say it was way better in their day, and that their kid's music is just trash killing the fundamentals of music and warping what it means to be human and experience art.


----------



## FinGael

chocobitz825 said:


> it'd be a more valid argument if it wasn't a rehashing of what every previous generation says about the next generation of music. Music isn't dying, just the music industry that's warped our perception of it for a good 100+ years. This is just another trend of music and like all others, it too shall someday pass. the kids growing up on the music of today will say it was way better in their day, and that their kid's music is just trash killing the fundamentals of music and warping what it means to be human and experience art.



Yes. My argument may not be valid, it is just a personal one. I am aware of the things you wrote, and have given it a lot of thought. (I practice meditation and spend a lot of time in nature, and can say that have given this topic a lot of time and thought).

I am targeting my critique mainly to the system, the industry, which in my opinion has landed in hands of people too focused on making the maximum amount of money. That is why I state what I think. It may not make any difference - I just feel it is the right thing to do.

I know from a real life experience that there are quite many who think like me on this - at least to some extent. They mostly seem to have decided to play with the existing rules and not to speak out their truth, in fear of losing their income, relations and jobs. I understand it well, but chose to be true to what I feel in the core of my being.

_I think that one problem is that many of them brainwash themselves to work against who they really are, to make a living, and thus waste their passion and unique talent, something that could really make some difference, or this world a bit better place. _

I also acknowledge that art and culture, music not the least, is a strong force that can build, steer and destroy civilizations. That's why I do not see it as a healthy thing, that the power in the music industy, the decision makers of the music you hear everywhere, are people that are experts in finances, in my experience rarely in art or creation of it.

There are many ways to change things. If no one does anything, we'll probably have more of the same.


----------



## chocobitz825

FinGael said:


> Yes. My argument may not be valid, it is just a personal one. I am aware of the things you wrote, and have given it a lot of thought. (I practice meditation and spend a lot of time in nature, and can say that have given this topic a lot of time and thought).
> 
> I am targeting my critique mainly to the system, the industry, which in my opinion has landed in hands of people too focused on making the maximum amount of money. That is why I state what I think. It may not make any difference - I just feel it is the right thing to do.
> 
> I know from a real life experience that there are quite many that think like me on this - at least to some extent. They mostly do not want speak out their truth, in fear of losing their income and jobs. I understand it well, but chose to be true to what I feel inside.
> 
> I also acknowledge that art and culture, music not the least, is a strong force that build and destroy civilizations. That's why I do not see it as a healthy thing, that the power in the music industy, the decision makers of the music you hear everywhere, are people that are experts in finances, in my experience rarely of art or creation of it.



the problem is the nostalgic re-writing of history. Was the music industry better when it was slaving out young pop stars in the 50s and 60s? was it better when it took the blues, and racially repackaged it for better profits? Was it a better industry when it practically spoon fed drugs to its artists for the sake of "creativity" or for the sake of image? 

When has the music industry been so pure and all about the music rather than profit? Even if we look at classical music, how accessible was it to the average person, or was it too more about money and status? How about academia? Has it not shown a history of favoring money over respect and accessibility for all people who love music? 

I can understand if you don't like music as it is now, but that's an existential thing that most people go through with music. Realizing our experience with music is not eternal, nor universal, and the things we loved about music and the moments we associate with it as humans consuming/creating art ultimately end up destined to become outdated and underappreciated. 

If there's any proof that our perception of music is skewed, we should consider how much of our perception of music and the greats/great standards are based on a European standard of melody and rhythm. If not for the adoption of "African" rhythms into mainstream music, our standards would have been far more bland and restricted. The fact that western standards rarely go in-depth to rank the contributions of Latin, Asian and African (for example) contributions to music around the world is a failing of this gold standard people claim in music.

That's a whole different conversation, but at any rate, I get your frustration. Most of us involved in the business or academic pursuit of art/music have all experienced some burn from the profit motives. We're all being screwed by the same system, all the time. Not a failing of modern music, just a failing of how much civilization prioritizes profit over people.


----------



## gamma-ut

chocobitz825 said:


> it'd be a more valid argument if it wasn't a rehashing of what every previous generation says about the next generation of music. Music isn't dying, just the music industry that's warped our perception of it for a good 100+ years. This is just another trend of music and like all others, it too shall someday pass. the kids growing up on the music of today will say it was way better in their day, and that their kid's music is just trash killing the fundamentals of music and warping what it means to be human and experience art.



It's been going longer than a century. Fux hated the tonal music the kids liked, which was partly why he wrote Gradus ad Parnassum - to keep the modal stuff alive. It's somewhat ironic it became the cornerstone text for tonal counterpoint writing (despite containing a bunch of rules that make no sense for tonal counterpoint).


----------



## FinGael

chocobitz825 said:


> the problem is the nostalgic re-writing of history. Was the music industry better when it was slaving out young pop stars in the 50s and 60s? was it better when it took the blues, and racially repackaged it for better profits? Was it a better industry when it practically spoon fed drugs to its artists for the sake of "creativity" or for the sake of image?
> 
> When has the music industry been so pure and all about the music rather than profit? Even if we look at classical music, how accessible was it to the average person, or was it too more about money and status? How about academia? Has it not shown a history of favoring money over respect and accessibility for all people who love music?
> 
> I can understand if you don't like music as it is now, but that's an existential thing that most people go through with music. Realizing our experience with music is not eternal, nor universal, and the things we loved about music and the moments we associate with it as humans consuming/creating art ultimately end up destined to become outdated and underappreciated.
> 
> If there's any proof that our perception of music is skewed, we should consider how much of our perception of music and the greats/great standards are based on a European standard of melody and rhythm. If not for the adoption of "African" rhythms into mainstream music, our standards would have been far more bland and restricted. The fact that western standards rarely go in-depth to rank the contributions of Latin, Asian and African (for example) contributions to music around the world is a failing of this gold standard people claim in music.
> 
> That's a whole different conversation, but at any rate, I get your frustration. Most of us involved in the business or academic pursuit of art/music have all experienced some burn from the profit motives. We're all being screwed by the same system, all the time. Not a failing of modern music, just a failing of how much civilization prioritizes profit over people.



Thank you for your long reply. Personally i have no agenda to re-write history of music in a nostalgic way; I have no opinions of the music industry during 50's to 70's, because I was born mid 70's, and have no experience of the industry during that time. I am criticizing it now because of how things are.

In my case it is about what the situation is now, and all of the things music is to me, on a deep, personal level. Live and let live takes you a long way, but once in a while critique is welcome. If everything is right on track, then cannot see it making that much harm. More viewpoints, easier to put things on the map. 

And nothing against money or making of it, but being screwed by the system isn't that great (like you well put it).


----------



## chocobitz825

FinGael said:


> In my case it is about what the situation is now, and all of the things music is to me, on a deep, personal level.



Pretty much what this all comes down to. Music and melody aren't dying, it's just dying to some of us based on our individual experiences and preferences with music. It's a highly personal thing, that often gets misrepresented as a larger social or systemic problem. Analysis and criticism are fine conversation points. It's just the damnation of generational change that is most exhausting.


----------



## FinGael

chocobitz825 said:


> the problem is the nostalgic re-writing of history. Was the music industry better when it was slaving out young pop stars in the 50s and 60s? was it better when it took the blues, and racially repackaged it for better profits? Was it a better industry when it practically spoon fed drugs to its artists for the sake of "creativity" or for the sake of image?
> 
> When has the music industry been so pure and all about the music rather than profit? Even if we look at classical music, how accessible was it to the average person, or was it too more about money and status? How about academia? Has it not shown a history of favoring money over respect and accessibility for all people who love music?
> 
> I can understand if you don't like music as it is now, but that's an existential thing that most people go through with music. Realizing our experience with music is not eternal, nor universal, and the things we loved about music and the moments we associate with it as humans consuming/creating art ultimately end up destined to become outdated and underappreciated.
> 
> If there's any proof that our perception of music is skewed, we should consider how much of our perception of music and the greats/great standards are based on a European standard of melody and rhythm. If not for the adoption of "African" rhythms into mainstream music, our standards would have been far more bland and restricted. The fact that western standards rarely go in-depth to rank the contributions of Latin, Asian and African (for example) contributions to music around the world is a failing of this gold standard people claim in music.
> 
> That's a whole different conversation, but at any rate, I get your frustration. Most of us involved in the business or academic pursuit of art/music have all experienced some burn from the profit motives. We're all being screwed by the same system, all the time. Not a failing of modern music, just a failing of how much civilization prioritizes profit over people.



One thing to add...

To be completely honest, one big reason for me not to support the current system is how I, being involved decades with esotericism, see mainstream music of today affecting people, their bodies and their consciousness.

It is not that much about my taste and what I think is good music and what is not. But it ain't that easy to share views about those notions, because they are not considered to be valid data in this age of (only western) science.


----------



## chocobitz825

FinGael said:


> One thing to add...
> 
> To be completely honest, one big reason for me not to support the current system is how I, being involved decades with esotericism, see mainstream music of today affecting people, their bodies and their consciousness.
> 
> It is not that much about my taste and what I think is good music and what is not. But it ain't that easy to share views about those notions, because they are not considered to be valid data in this age of (only western) science.



Fair point, but that’s capitalism and social media more than music itself, I would assume. I have no idea how to critique the current age of technology and consumerism given how at its best it’s connected billions of people to each other, and at its worst it’s turned everyone of them into the star of their own branded entertainment. I suppose I feel that music isn’t the cause, just one of the conditions of larger societal trends. 

If there’s any positive, for as bad as mainstream music can get, we live in an age where you can access tons of non-mainstream music from around the world from truly passionate creators who need not be bothered with the business of music.


----------



## Farkle

@douggibson I just wanted you to know, I have read your posts, and I'm not ignoring them. I'm on vacation with the fam, and my internet is wonky; at this location, all your embedded youtube links are not loading (the fault of the internet where I am, not your posts). I'll be back at the end of the week, and will masticate/listen to/absorb all of what you wrote. I hope that my silence wasn't one of the reasons you pulled your posts (if that's right, I can't find the posts from Monday).

Mike


----------



## chocobitz825

douggibson said:


> Youtube ??........ More like VI-Control ! I recall when Northern Sounds went down and for a few years this place was a really cool. It felt like "Musicians helping other Musicians". That's been dead a quite a few years now and for me it's been more akin to VI-Control: Some really cool are left, and......douche bags.
> 
> I AM FUCKING LIVID. As such, I hope (Daniel) you don't mind me using your comment for the prelude of my VI-Control demise. (I am sure this and my next post won't last long: rightfully so too. Mike Greene I do apologize to you on a personal level , but I've had it so get the nuke button ready Mr. Greene.)
> 
> 
> VI-Control is now "Crack Spiders Bitch". That is a scientific term back by solid research with major funding by the Canadian Government. If anyone is un-familiar here is a brief documentary explaining the concept in fine detail
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let this sink in.......... I kid you not................ there is a thread on "is the earth round/ it must be flat"
> 
> ************** As far as I can tell, the "Death of Melody" is not made by anyone here. It's presents itself as a brand (Inside the Score) and the very first thing the video does is ask for money (nothing wrong with that !!!)
> 
> The distinction I am making is that it (to me) looked like a product. A Brand is releasing a Product, and the video has a large view count with fingers pointing at me to "Subscribe".
> 
> 
> To my mind I commenting on a product, and one that (perhaps seeing it here vs. Youtube put me in a different mind set) is "educational" or instructional.
> 
> I still have zero idea who makes these (nor care to know. I sincerely wish them well, even if I don't want to watch )
> 
> If IT IS PRODUCED BY SOMEONE HERE THAN LET ME KNOW. I WOULD LIKE TO APOLOGIZE OR RATHER EXPLAIN.
> 
> 
> See, when you release a product, or say a research paper........you are going to get harsh pier review. That is both expected and it's not personal. It's a different context than the "Musicians helping other Musicians". Well, you help them by critique and finding flaws. When I studied with Sam Adler and we had these composer round tables he always began with "Don't say anything nice about the piece. Because it does help anyone grow." (he is brilliant an we all knew he cared. He had so much INTEGRITY with his work. He would never ask, or suggest something he had not achieved himself. He is contagiously inspiring.
> So when I posted_douggibson said:_
> _Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong,
> 
> 
> Total shit. Don't get your learning from youtube videos. Bedroom Philosophy._
> 
> 
> This is for two reasons (in my head)
> 
> 1. It's not a comment that is personal to anyone here.
> 2. VIC has become crack spiders bitch and so so tired of taking the time and energy to contribute -- in a CRAFT BASED WAY- only to have a "FLAT EARTHER" take a shit on me.
> 
> #2. means what you see above is my mind predicting ........ if I explain my opinion (it's only a point of view, but specific and craft based) is a waste of time. SO .....fuck it..... save energy and thus that is what you see above.
> 
> 
> It really is amazing how almost like catching a sub in midtown........
> 
> 
> "This is a little off-topic, _*but jeez I would hate to have you as a teacher!*_ I'm fine with people saying something's _wrong_ but at least explain _why _in something other than "total shit don't do this".
> 
> 
> Compared to
> 
> _I'm surprised you had such an aggressive response to this. For what it's worth, I thought that many of the core concepts of the video, as well as the reference music (Tchaikovsky), were really solid. Certainly good food for compositional thought. Do you have an alternate structure to thinking about melody, philosophically?
> 
> Mike_
> 
> 
> See Farkle's is a dialouge. Lawson is a douche bag. The difference are striking.
> 
> I address him in my next post.
> 
> 
> 
> But let me ask you Daniel...... I don't think we know each other at all......do we ? If I was in court I would testify we have never typed a word to each other. We are on opposite sides of the spectrum compositionally ( which is great ! The only piece I have ever heard of your I thought was wonderful. It was a James Bond-ish.... but original tune. It just worked, and shows clearly - regardless of personality, or aesthetic leanings....you have a tremendously high level of craft.)
> 
> Now imagine there was a product on "Hybrid scoring" and you went......wow....this is not correct at all.
> 
> Then I, with whom you have never met, never said hello to, jump in with
> 
> "Wow....... I would hate to have you working on my project."
> 
> 
> Wouldn't you begin pondering......who is this person ? What the fuck.
> 
> un-apologetically someone publicly questioning my integrity to the craft is a red line. I am an asshole.
> I am flawed personally. I know this, and I am very up-front about this. This is why I always push my students to write "Their" music. Focus on the teaching, not the teacher....because I will fail.
> 
> Probably working working on the piece for the Detroit Symphony was the hardest for me emotionally.
> My student (within two years 5 of my student had commissions from The American Composers Orchestra, South Dakota, Seattle -- I forget the name of the orchestra...not the Settle symphony I don't think, Carnegie hall..... basically I was mentoring students with gigs to places that wanted nothing to do with my work........shallow.....sure.........what saved the day is my training is outside of my personality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Saxer. (You are a cool cat. Thank you for the very kind words on my Bass Clarinet concerto BTW. You are very kind)
> 
> Even a basic 101 composition class technique breaks down this dudes approach. ( See.... from my training I see thru a lense of "The transformation of your material, is your piece")
> 
> The video goes on and on about this melody must be this emotion.
> 
> OH....WAGNER HAS PEOPLE FUCKING (but do we get the Rite of Spring depicting an orgy and it's "no melody". It might be the single most important piece in the last 110 years in the classical world, so it's not like I am "grasping")
> 
> or EMPATHY.......YES.......EMPATHY.......
> 
> The science of music is pretty neat too. How would this well known Mozart melody been descibed ?
> Lullaby, innocence, playful --- whatever who knows.
> 
> The melody opens on C. If you use C as an axis, and flip everything over.......you get it's opposite character. You can swap the top line with the bottom......and another affect.
> 
> BUT IT'S ALL THE SAME MELODY. NOTHING FROM THE MOZART IS CHANGED. The final example doesn't really give any new information, but it is re-ordered to make it pianistic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MORE.........




You don’t need some random person to say this, but of course, your experience and expertise are valid, and your educational contribution is appreciated.

I can’t see your original comment in full context, so the only thing I can see is the dismissal of the concept of YouTube videos educational value from you. I can understand why that might spark someone to say “I wouldn’t want you as a teacher.” Not because you have less to contribute, but because for someone who is finding their way in the art of music, it’s likely unappealing to hear “there’s only one path to enlightenment, my way!” A hyperbolic statement that you didn’t exactly say but it could come off as so.

The problem with this entire debate and many in these types of the forum is the inability to be open to varied perspective. If we were talking science, then yes there is a flow of hypothesis submission, study and peer review to establish the commonly accepted facts. Music is not necessarily science. Having a different interpretation of music and its emotional impact, or enjoyability is not the same as denying the laws of physics, so calling people with different opinions flat earthers is a bit over-the-top. Music theory is not a prerequisite to making music. Academic praise is not a requirement to establish which music is good or not. Academia had condemned genres of music before societal pressures required it to adopt it. Academia then turns around, analyzes the music and pats itself on the back for its ability to do so. I’m particularly thinking of how jazz was criticized initially but is now a core of many music curriculums. Oddly I recall nirvana being claimed as terrible garage band music, yet now academia talks about their lyrical and emotional depth. 

Also, if you want to consider the youtube video to be educational entertainment, that's more accurate I feel. It does not substitute a real education with a teacher, but that does not mean it lacks educational value, or at the very least does not serve the purpose of making people consider the topic and debate it. The video's self-promotion does not disqualify it any more than a university asking for your tuition/donations, or a teacher/tutor asking for you to sign up for more lessons. Profit incentive exists in any educational setting that isn't 100% free and for the benefit of the student's growth only. 

This conversation leaves itself open to rants so I’ll stop while I’m ahead. Your analysis and contribution were interesting to read and thought-provoking. I hope your contributions continue around here because it no doubt inspires some to look deeper into things they haven’t considered before. Maybe just don’t shit on people and their opinions/experiences just because it’s different than yours. I think you mean well, so I would hate for it to come off that your rant here is more about validating your impressive and significant professional experience more than it is about allowing people the freedom to obtain new information and expand their musical horizons.


----------



## Lawson.

douggibson said:


> Lawson is a douche bag.



I genuinely did not mean to offend you, so apologizes if it came off that way. That being said, I have literally never been called that before and I kind of slightly possibly maybe find it hilarious.


----------



## chocobitz825

douggibson said:


> hey man........ That is decent of you. Cheers. I get the gesture , and the peaceful vibes behind the words.
> Let's not debate it. Live a good life, and do what you can with music......mmm K ?
> 
> The only thing I would like to note for the record (no judgement here from me at all) is
> 
> 
> 
> and it's a perfectly valid opinion. But I find interesting is not a single mention or reaction to
> 
> 
> 
> So as long as I don't question youtube videos we're cool on "Crack Spiders Bitch".
> ________________________________________________________________________________
> 
> 
> This thread is just perfect for what I am about to write.
> 
> 
> So.... I love to teach, and really......every student has been the most awesome person (I only teach adults, no one under 20 has ever even asked for a lesson).......except for 1.
> 
> 
> 21....NYU dropout, made 10's millions of dollars "inventing" (he didn't) a few products......but the "Ninja Wallet" is his most popular.
> 
> Actually a talented guy. Showed first lesson and played two Rachmaninoff preludes......very well too. (As Lawson is super talented violinist.)
> 
> Anyhow.....TLDR: We barley make it two lessons. Hopeless.......my P.O.V of this guy was every stereo type of a hipster from Williamsberg.
> 
> And to his credit basically he tells me to go fuck myself and that was that..... and you know what.......
> one of his youtube video has @ 34 millions plays right now.
> 
> Good for him. He told me off.....and he went out and made things happen. Props to anyone who says "what do you know" and keeps on their path. Howard Stern did almost a full hour interview of him about 3 weeks after the parting.
> 
> Anyhow...... how do I know this ? He kept me on a group mailing list.
> One day I get this email announcing the "major launch" of his debut album and his sure path to stardom.
> 
> Alex..... was now Franke. Aww.....
> 
> Why the new name. I can't say for sure. My theory he reached such an intense stage of douche bag that he was no longer human....... but a Vortex. Like the "infinity stones" but for douche bags.
> 
> Somewhere along the way he moved from NYC to LA. Why the new city to live in. I can't say for sure.
> 
> My theory is he was magnetically pulled by another, dare I say even more powerful douche bag vortex.
> 
> Together they could make a new powerful super douche that could be felt across the time/space continuum.
> 
> So when I clicked on the email and the video to play, you can imagine my only reason for being there is to hope what I am about to hear is the worst song ever recorded. I only want to derive pleasure from watching his misfortune.
> 
> 
> Was it bad............. unfathomable. I had high hope for suck....... oh and I was not let down.
> 
> So see......all is good. The only student to tell me straight up I suck, know nothing is getting millions and millions of people watching his music so I am sure he happy. I am happy too. I get mentioned too.... (the haters who say he can't do it)
> 
> It was meant to be. In a million years I could come up with something that so sincerely bad. They way they are being ironic......but still reaching new levels of suck......... that's a talent. You can't teach that. You are either a full on douche bag or your not. Few get this level.. That acting with dialogue ...... would make a porn star cringe
> 
> 
> Hat's off to ya Alex I say. (he is the first douche you see)
> 
> It's a perfect jam for this whole thread.




by all means challenge youtube videos. they're meant to be discussed for their validity or lack thereof. I would just say dont immediately dismiss the entire platform just because its youtube. 


I understand your frustration and desire to vent from things happening here and no doubt other places. Thng is, from my perspective, its all connected. I've always felt that people's passion for music is often overstated. If it was satisfactory to just make music for music's sake with no expectation of praise, fame, and accolades, we'd have a far more pure art form. That's, not the case. What I see now, in this forum and beyond is frustration. Endless frustration from those who feel their craft is no longer respected and cherished. From people who feel decades of hard work have no been dismissed. Frustration from generations who grew up with the dreams of rewards and accolades for their pursuit of music, but instead they get a bum industry with hardly any opportunity.

I feel this relates because musicians helping musicians is a great concept when all we want to do is just create. Musicians helping musicians means very little because the greatest anecdotal evidence and sincere knowledge don't often guarantee a link to measurable results professionally. If you've studied music for years, couldn't afford to get into a music program, and despite years of practice and studying can't get a break, you might turn to quick satisfaction like youtube videos to make you feel like you're getting some kind of progress at your price point. People dismissing the experience of someone like you with a large resume is probably less personal than it feels. "what do you know!?" most likely translates to "what does that information really do for me in my situation!?"

Trying to teach people here would probably need to be a labor of love because people will probably ignore a lot of it, and waver around trying to find some quick fix for long term problems. Nonetheless, I sincerely mean to say thank you for your efforts and I hope you'll find a more satisfying experience here or elsewhere.


----------



## Farkle

Hahah, understood, sir! Yes, I'll hop over and talk to you in the "Red" States, @douggibson . Glad you are not misreading why I hadn't responded.

Be well!

Mike


----------



## AndyP

TigerTheFrog said:


> Thoughts?



It's not easy to write a melody that is unique and instantly recognizable. The best example for me is the intro of the original Star Trek series. Da dada, da dadadadaaaaa.
It's simple, you can recognize it immediately, even if it's used in a slightly different context.
To my ears this is the perfect melody.

Edit: And I don't need to post the melody because everyone knows it just by description!


----------



## marclawsonmusic

douggibson said:


>




Seems like they were going for a viral hit with this thing... maybe trying to be the next 'Gangham Style' or something.

Some people are drawn to this instant-grat kind of popmusic. I have never understood it... it flares up like a match and is forgotten just as quickly. 

Sounds like your student was someone who wanted to be famous more than anything else.


----------



## AndyP

What I actually want to say is that music is not good just because it has a good melody.
Music is emotion, music creates feelings or memories in us. Music creates moods, atmosphere.
And how to achieve that with music, with or without melody is irrelevant. Decisive is what the listener associates with it.
When does a melody become a melody? From 2, from 3 or 4 different notes?

I had to think of the "Einstürzende Neubauten", an 80's punk band from Germany that made music with everything that could show any sound. Most of them felt it at that time noise or harassment, for others it was a revelation. There wasn't a melody in the usual sense either, but it opened the door to a new genre. Today musicians (even HZ) pay a lot of money for VIs to be able to use exactly this "noise".

I like both. And yet the Star Trek intro will always be unique and recognizable by its melody.


----------



## Symfoniq

If there is in fact a "death of melody" (and I'm not certain that there is), it's merely an opportunity for good melodists to stand out.

The orchestral score was all but dead in the films of the 1970s. Then John Williams bucked the trends of his day, and a new golden age for orchestral film scores began.

I'm not worried about a world without melody, because the world will become tired of it.


----------



## I like music

"If our music survives, which I have no doubt it will, then it will because it is good." Jerry Goldsmith. Not sure what _"our music"_ refers to exactly, but I like to pretend that it is that style of film music that we know Goldsmith, Horner, Williams, for. And though the people who get exposure to that music _seems_ to be getting smaller (I have no idea if it is, or not) I feel that fundamentally, that music _is_ good, and therefore it'll survive. Will it thrive? Who knows? But I think there's enough there that it'll always be about, simply because it is too damn good not to.


----------



## dgburns

Melody is Dead, Long live Melody


----------



## joelmichael

TomislavEP said:


> Personally, I think that coming up with an original, simple and singable melody is a true pinnacle of music creation. Technology, sound design, being creative with arranging of the already finished elements is all great, but the basic musical elements - melodies, harmonies and rhythms must always come first.



"Melody is the essence of music. _I_ compare a good melodist to a fine racer, and counterpointists to hack post-horses; therefore be advised, let _well alone_ and remember the old Italian proverb: _Chi sa più, meno sa_—Who knows most, knows least." -Mozart

This is why John Williams will be remembered in 100 years and John Cage will not. It's also why Paul McCartney is a genius despite what elitists with far less ability might say.



TomislavEP said:


> The fact that most types of modern music are more and more away from these principles is only a reflection of the sad attitude of an average listener toward music. Most of the people nowadays simply don't have time, let alone will to appreciate the music as an art form and to truly experience it like it should be experienced. Instead, they're considering music as nothing more than a background distraction. The basic rule of mass media - give the people what they want (the line from "Tomorrow Never Dies"). This is evident in genres that are generally geared toward the masses, but unfortunately also in much more sophisticated ones, like film music.



The degeneration of film music didn't result from the demands of the public; it resulted from the demands of the directors. Not all film music these days is theme-less anyway, and I think the Zimmer trend will lose popularity eventually.

One of the reasons gaming interests me as a composer is that it's an immersive experience in which players often hear the same music repeatedly. If anyone has time to absorb a tune, it's them. And what are the most popular game OSTs in the world? The tuneful ones.


----------



## I like music

joelmichael said:


> "Melody is the essence of music. _I_ compare a good melodist to a fine racer, and counterpointists to hack post-horses; therefore be advised, let _well alone_ and remember the old Italian proverb: _Chi sa più, meno sa_—Who knows most, knows least." -Mozart
> 
> This is why John Williams will be remembered in 100 years and John Cage will not. It's also why Paul McCartney is a genius despite what elitists with far less ability might say.
> 
> 
> 
> The degeneration of film music didn't result from the demands of the public; it resulted from the demands of the directors. Not all film music these days is theme-less anyway, and I think the Zimmer trend will lose popularity eventually.
> 
> One of the reasons gaming interests me as a composer is that it's an immersive experience in which players often hear the same music repeatedly. If anyone has time to absorb a tune, it's them. And what are the most popular game OSTs in the world? The tuneful ones.



I still can't get the music from the Outcast game (Lennie Moore) out of my head, and that was more than 20 years ago.

Or Fantasy World Dizzy on the Commodore 64. And that was 30 years ago!


----------



## douggibson




----------



## chocobitz825

well......that happened...


----------



## I like music

As we say over here, it's all kicked off...


----------



## FinGael

More coffee, anyone?


----------



## chocobitz825

FinGael said:


> More coffee, anyone?



actually I was just making some popcorn..


----------



## douggibson

chocobitz825 said:


> well......that happened...




@chocobitz825


----------



## chocobitz825

douggibson said:


> @chocobitz825
> Hey....... you have been talking peacefully to me......
> 
> 
> I read you were a cop. You make the call.
> 
> Give me advice.
> 
> 
> Watch the video. Am I wrong.
> 
> 
> Look...... this has been on my mind from the very second comment. A drug addict can spot another.
> 
> 
> Let me ask you:
> 
> Should it take it down.
> 
> You were a cop.
> 
> Make the call.
> 
> 
> You say take it down, I promise to delete it, walk away, and never speak of it, or visit here again.
> 
> If you see were i am coming from and see validity.... to leaving it up...... I'll do that too.



lol cops can only go so far in civil disputes. 

mmmm I dont know what to say here. I understand your frustration. If you gotta vent, you gotta vent. I only hope it made you feel better.
I still maintain that half of our disputes on these forums probably stem from a bit of bitterness and frustration we feel from our industry. I mean...its a shitty time to be a professional in the music business.


----------



## douggibson

chocobitz825 said:


> I still maintain that half of our disputes on these forums probably stem from a bit of bitterness and frustration we feel from our industry. I mean...its a shitty time to be a professional in the music business.


----------



## chocobitz825

I wouldn’t mean to imply that frustration comes from a lack of success. I think it’s equally as frustrating being successful. I find one of the most frustrating things is seeing new musicians coming in, trying their best, doing the right things and still failing. I have new artists ask me what I did in my profession, and I too try to share knowledge and experience, but it only goes so far for them. I think again, that’s why sometimes people can be dismissive of education and experience here because at the end of the day a lot of people are just looking for that magic key, or that magic opportunity to achieve what the folks before them did. It’s tough out there. Really tough. I’ve grow accustomed to the idea that success as we’ve seen and experienced it is fading.


----------



## MartinH.

douggibson said:


> Watch the video. Am I wrong.



Unless the Original was taken from an old source that is in the public domain I think you're spot on. Worth asking the question at the very least.





TigerTheFrog said:


> I'm asking this question innocently, not because I know the answer, but because I'm interested in your opinions.
> 
> As many of you make it, do you think contemporary trailer music is driven more by sound design and the rhythm of big drums or by melody? What do clients want?
> 
> Sometimes--definitely not always--I watch six trailers in the theatre and feel like they all sound like the same movie. This tends to happen when I go to an action or horror movie and they string together trailers that are the same genre.
> 
> Here's THE BATTLE OF ALGIERS trailer from 1966, which is a very intense film, with a lot of violence. Do you think it would have been done differently today? (Music credit is shared by Ennio Morricone and director Gillo Pontecorvo)




Somehow it reminded me of Sicario. I quite liked the soundtrack to that movie. Though I would recommend _only _checking out the trailer to Sicario if you're sure you don't want to watch the film for real. Imho the trailer (which I luckily only have seen after the movie) completely would ruin the experience of watching the movie.

But you can listen to this piece from the soundtrack:


----------



## douggibson




----------



## douggibson




----------



## douggibson

chocobitz825 said:


> I wouldn’t mean to imply that frustration comes from a lack of success. I think it’s equally as frustrating




Off topic for a minute.....

Once I had a student who was the head of the Phoenix SWAT team. He called me one day and asked
if I wanted to see the Phoenix Suns play the Bucks. (this was 20 years ago so the Bucks were the team all season ticket holders gave away)


Anyhow, at halftime I see a full moon, and ask him

" Do you get a big spike in crime each full moon" (he only dealt with hostage situations)

"Nah, makes no difference. Only Sundays"

Sundays I ask....why ?

Do you know what the number 1 cause of SWAT team hostage negotiations is ?

Family Bar-B-Q's


Not bank robbers...... your cousin etc.

I find that really intersting


----------



## douggibson

FUCK IT......... 

@Nick Batzdorf , @Mike Greene

Please, please, please lock me out. Close my profile/account.

I will not be able to let this go other wise.. I need handcuffs, lock me up, or else I'll titer-toter back to rage.......


How I fucking hate letting this slide.

If you let me back in the next time I post the opening sentence will be

_"I hope you get severe leprosy and savagely raped by a pack of wild Rinos."_


Close me down !!!!

I know forever this thread is going make me re-create this guys reaction below to "You, John Wayne"


----------



## FinGael

I'm just a wanderer from the other side of the globe, and thus my opinion probably isn't of any importance, but I have to say that I don't mind that things get sometimes heated and venting happens. It's life. I just hope that people would take a breath or two when it gets (too) personal and people start to overreact. All things will pass and tomorrow will be a new day.

I do not know any participants in this conversation in real life, but I feel that in some odd way I love you all, and I feel grateful to be a part of this community: I think this is a good place to be.


----------



## Mike Greene

I'm not sure what's going on with Doug, but in the interest of keeping the peace, I've put a hold on his account.


----------



## Dave Connor

joelmichael said:


> "Melody is the essence of music. _I_ compare a good melodist to a fine racer, and counterpointists to hack post-horses; therefore be advised, let _well alone_ and remember the old Italian proverb: _Chi sa più, meno sa_—Who knows most, knows least." -Mozart


Except for the fact that when Mozart encountered the music of _counterpointist _Sebastian Bach he underwent a creative crisis in which he felt he knew nothing about composition. From that point on Mozart employs contrapuntal textures more and more so that eventually - the final movement of his final symphony is a contrapuntal masterpiece far more than a melodic masterpiece (though his fugal subjects are excellent examples of the short melodic fragment.)

In one of the most arresting and hauntingly beautiful melodies to begin a piece of music - Mozart’s Piano Cto., 23; 2nd Mvmt - the purely Mozartian melody turns out to be pure Bach. A direct lift a half step away from the original Bach piece. So... Mozart may put the knock on people who fancy themselves _scientific composers_ but when he needs to swipe a great tune or wants to deepen his music he turns to the great _counterpointist_ Bach.



joelmichael said:


> This is why John Williams will be remembered in 100 years and John Cage will not. It's also why Paul McCartney is a genius despite what elitists with far less ability might say.


_When are you going to stop writing all that silly film music? _What snob pestered John Williams over a number of years with that question? Oscar-winning film composer Andre Previn - his dear friend. So, everyone has their take on what is great music and who will be remembered. (Very few learned musicians are anything but smitten with McCartney’s protean musical gifts.)


joelmichael said:


> The degeneration of film music didn't result from the demands of the public; it resulted from the demands of the directors. Not all film music these days is theme-less anyway, and I think the Zimmer trend will lose popularity eventually.


 You left out the demands of millions of young and old film-goers that flock to Zimmer concerts as if he was Paul McCartney. The directors you mention are the premiere directors of their generation (the ones that want HZ scoring their films anyway.) I wouldn’t blame them for the directors that copy them poorly - same as I wouldn’t blame a composer for being copied poorly by others. (What Zimmer trends btw?: Driving Miss Daisy, Gladiator, The Dark Knight, or Sherlock Holmes?)

The problem in discussing _melody_ is that it’s a very broad description. Usually it’s _Lyrical Melody_ that people are focused on when there are so many other types that fulfill functions other than _Song-like _or _Thematic. _Many people do consider lyrical melody-writing the supreme musical gift. I need Bartok as well as Puccini - as I need the Stones as well as the Beatles. It’s all good.


----------



## Reid Rosefelt

Melody is not dead.

It never will be. 

But I'm not sorry I put the video up and wrote "Thoughts?" because a lot of the discussion that followed was interesting.


----------



## joelmichael

Dave Connor said:


> Except for the fact that when Mozart encountered the music of _counterpointist _Sebastian Bach he underwent a creative crisis in which he felt he knew nothing about composition. From that point on Mozart employs contrapuntal textures more and more so that eventually - the final movement of his final symphony is a contrapuntal masterpiece far more than a melodic masterpiece (though his fugal subjects are excellent examples of the short melodic fragment.)



You're talking about *the* counterpointist here, who was more than just a good technician. For me, the takeaway from Mozart is that an inspired melody excites the human spirit in a way that insipid counterpoint does not. Bach, of course, is anything but insipid.

Technique can be learned and applied to create a passable piece of music (to a masterful degree), but an inspired melody cannot be faked. Technique for its own sake is false, and true inspiration is the most valuable thing. I think this is more or less his point, and I doubt he would have retracted his statement in his later years.



Dave Connor said:


> _When are you going to stop writing all that silly film music? _What snob pestered John Williams over a number of years with that question? Oscar-winning film composer Andre Previn - his dear friend. So, everyone has their take on what is great music and who will be remembered.



As much as I love Previn, I don't think he had the right temperament to work in Hollywood for very long. He managed to do a few things before quitting because he "was tired of working for a bunch of musical idiots". I'm rather confident he understood the magnitude of John's talent, and that the "silly" remark more reflected his feelings about Hollywood itself rather than John's work.


----------



## Dave Connor

joelmichael said:


> As much as I love Previn, I don't think he had the right temperament to work in Hollywood for very long. He managed to do a few things before quitting because he "was tired of working for a bunch of musical idiots". I'm rather confident he understood the magnitude of John's talent, and that the "silly" remark more reflected his feelings about Hollywood itself rather than John's work.


I didn’t mean to put a slight out there on the great John Williams. Previn knew his talents better than most having worked with him. He considered JW to be a world-class composer and wanted him to write for the concert stage. That would have been quite a loss to the film world so I’m glad JW didn’t listen. My point was the divergent view of what is good, bad or great music by even the most noteworthy musicians.


----------



## Craig Duke

Here's my thesis. Melody cannot die because we are wired for it. We humans have too much brain functionality dedicated to melody not to use it. Stimulating the sophisticated brain functions that are used/dedicated to processing melody rewards us with emotion.

Consider our melody memory. Studies show that the average person can remember a tune, heard for the first time, for about two weeks (not re-singing it but rather picking it out as something you have heard). That's impressive, but consider that we can also associate a different version of a melody with the original. I could write fifty variations of Cole Porter's De-Lovely (as Jazz musicians commonly do) using a different key, different tempo, varied pitch relationships, rhythm changes, adding or subtracting notes, contour changes, etc. and you would recognize it as De-Lovely -- if I did my job right. That's very advanced associative processing. It's like the IQ tests that asks you find commonality between seemingly dissimilar groups of visual objects. We do it with melody without even trying and we get the payoff of emotion for free.

Another advanced capability of our brains is our real-time perception of melody. As Doug said, our brains are automatically trying to predict what is coming next based on what has already been heard, context, past experience with the style of music, etc. Not only that, we re-evaluate what we have already heard based on what we are currently hearing and what we expect to hear, making "now" very fuzzy. We do this in order to make sense of what we are hearing. That incredibly advanced. As Meyers points out, the expectations part of this process, expectations met, almost met, and not met, produces emotions. One of many ways melody creates emotion.

Stimulating the sophisticated melody processing features of our brain causes our bodies to produce complex emotions not normally experienced in everyday life. Besides staying alive and procreating, that's what we humans live for, endorphin release. Melody is here to stay.


----------



## patrick76

According to "Inside the Score" and his youtube video which uses her image as clickbait for his post, here is the poster child for "The Death of Melody"....


Inside the Score states, "Melody is no longer used as an EXPRESSIVE TOOL". I couldn't help thinking of this thread after watching this performance from SNL last night.

Edit: To be clear, I don't agree with "Inside the Score".


----------



## Tim_Wells

I think it's all about creating space and allowing your own feelings and imagination ride the space. My guess is the younger generations got tired of dominating melodies lines being pushed in their faces. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It just is. 

Obviously, world is rife with examples. One glaring example is TV jingles of old, which were basically a strong, simple, catchy melody line. Most of today's ads are open, airy grooves; and if there is melody to be discerned, it's either groove-based or very subtle.


----------



## patrick76

Tim_Wells said:


> I think it's all about creating space and allowing your own feelings and imagination ride the space. My guess is the younger generations got tired of dominating melodies lines being pushed in their faces. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It just is.
> 
> Obviously, world is rife with examples. One glaring example is TV jingles of old, which were basically a strong, simple, catchy melody line. Most of today's ads are open, airy grooves; and if there is melody to be discerned, it's either groove-based or very subtle.


I don't agree with the idea that melody is dying. The example I posted is what I would call an expressive melody. I think the whole point is that he used her image and a song as an example that was supposed to indicate the death of melody.


----------



## Uiroo

Tim_Wells said:


> I think it's all about creating space and allowing your own feelings and imagination ride the space. My guess is the younger generations got tired of dominating melodies lines being pushed in their faces. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It just is.


I don't think it's actually a matter of being tired of dominant melodies.
To me it seems rather obvious: Technology expanded the sonic options drastically, so it would be logical that a whole generations focus shifts quite a bit.


----------



## Tim_Wells

Uiroo said:


> I don't think it's actually a matter of being tired of dominant melodies.
> To me it seems rather obvious: Technology expanded the sonic options drastically, so it would be logical that a whole generations focus shifts quite a bit.


I would agree that the sonic capabilities are pushing this trend, as well.


----------



## LamaRose




----------



## YaniDee

Craig Duke said:


> Here's my thesis. Melody cannot die because we are wired for it. We humans have too much brain functionality dedicated to melody not to use it. Stimulating the sophisticated brain functions that are used/dedicated to processing melody rewards us with emotion.


I watched part of Dark Knight Returns last night... coming through my TV, which doesn't have stellar sound, and the way it's mixed in the movie, all I could really hear was drony sounds, crescendos and reverberant percussion.
I went to youtube today and listened to the soundtrack. On closer listening, I admit there are powerful sonic washes, rhythms, ostinatos, tension buildups, etc. I enjoyed it.
But once it finished, I found that I had retained nothing, except a vague sonic memory
of it.
I agree that one of the basic pleasures of melody is the ability to retain it..singing it, whistling or humming it, playing it on any instrument,or even just thinking about it is satisfying!


----------



## Dave Connor

YaniDee said:


> I watched part of Dark Knight Returns last night... coming through my TV, which doesn't have stellar sound...


Funny, I was surfing YouTube yesterday and came across a Hans video where he says, _Don’t listen to my music on small crappy speakers! Listen in a theatre! _Obviously he suggests for us to listen on the best audio system available to us.

All of us have our preferences but of course we should not impose them unrealistically on films. We may love the waltz but we can’t insist on hearing one when King Kong is fighting a T-Rex. Hans being the inventor of various non-traditional approaches to film music is going to go his own way the same way Jackson Pollack is going to with his art. Neither can be blamed if suddenly _everyone is doing it _and the landscape changes in their field. 

A potential negative effect of the catchy, or teary, soaring melody would be something I once experienced: walking to my car after watching Dances With Wolves I found myself singing the main theme to Out of Africa. So it can be argued that this or that approach works, or styles have generally changed but there are always exceptions and each film should be judged on it’s own merits. The Dark Knight for example is a landmark score (and film) so it’s follow up was in good hands to be sure.


----------



## MartinH.

Dave Connor said:


> I was surfing YouTube yesterday and came across a Hans video where he says, _Don’t listen to my music on small crappy speakers! Listen in a theatre!_



Well, joke's on him, because I listen to his COD:MW2 soundtrack on the crappy internal speaker of my first gen iPad, and I _still _like it .


----------



## waveheavy

What's happening in film music today with action scenes is kind of sad, because the fad is to write mostly dissonant clusters instead of melodic pieces. At some modern action movies at the theater with my boys, the music had so much driving percussion it got very monotonous, and I dozed off. My boys would have to elbow me to wake me up.


----------

