# Stuck In Four Chord Town - Please Help!



## tc9000 (May 6, 2022)

I'm stuck in four chord town - here's an example of a typical compostion:

View attachment fourChordTown.mp3


Yawn. It's boring and I want to break out. I think I need to study harmony. Modulation. Cadences. Is that right? Please point me at something that will help me escape from this four chord hell?


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## chrisboy (May 6, 2022)

It's actually three chord town...


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## tc9000 (May 6, 2022)

chrisboy said:


> It's actually three chord town...


Oh God! It's worse than I thought


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## chillbot (May 6, 2022)

That is quite a yawner.

But I don't know it's the fault of the chords. You can write an interesting track that only uses one chord, never changes at all. I think it's more the constant swelling shape/motion of the orchestra that repeats over and over and over, seemingly never ending. Though on the other hand, repetition builds tension... I could see this working in the right scene in the right movie.

Anyhoo back to chords:

Gm F Eb Cm is common.
Or Gm F Eb C to steal a chord from dorian.
Or your standard epic fare Gm Eb Bb F ad nauseum.
Start putting some of those together and move around Gm F Eb Cm Bb Bb F F.
Or throw in the V for some flair Gm F Eb Cm Bb Bb F D/F# or Gm Eb Cm D.
Or go up instead of down Gm Bb Cm Eb.
Throw in some Fsus4 --> F on those bVII chords too. Or Bb/F --> F.
Same with the V chord, move Gm/D --> D.
Dm is also nice in this context, could go Gm F Eb Dm Cm Bb F D/F# etc.
I dunno, there's so many ways to go...


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## timprebble (May 6, 2022)

I'm sure everyone has seen it by now, but just incase...


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## monochrome (May 6, 2022)

I think an idea that might help is to experiment with free time/quasi-improvisation. if you're in a DAW, maybe try dipping in and out of the grid for small moments, it could help your piece feel more alive as well. you could cut chord progressions short or maybe make them longer sometimes, or try not to worry so much about progressions at all, any change in the routine might spark new ideas.

counter melodies and polyrhythms are a great way to introduce new ideas that can be developed. yes I think learning about modulation will help a ton, but not necessarily key changes specifically, just how to add a modal chord here or there to drive the piece

tempo changes (double times/half times or slight changes) might bring new material to you. try to experiment with more than whole notes for more than just the melody, also remember that not every "player" _has_ to be playing _all_ the time.

I actually like your piece! I can see it developing more (the longer the piece, the slower the developments can be), but I think it's missing a bit of focus? in the melody sometimes it feels like the "players" aren't exactly sure how it specifically goes. in the accompaniment I think there could be more dynamic focus. it feels like each chord of each bar, that are all whole notes, starts at like a _mp_ then swells a bit and comes back down, so not only are the progression and note durations repeating, but the energy is as well.

it might help to try and build towards some sort of peak (tension) and then either have a payoff (release) or just end that idea there before the big moment (this doesn't always have to be a massive epic build), but a driving direction is important to build interest, especially if you're only writing for strings and you have no other textures to help with this, so dynamics are more important than ever in my opinion


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## damirexus (May 6, 2022)

In my opinion the thing point is not the number of different chords but your ability to manipulate different aspects of musical flow. Orchestration, form, dynamics and diversity of musical elements. For example in this track you/ve posted, just bringing in some new rhytmic pattern coulb be enough to keep your journey going. I am not a pro but when I hear Dunkir soundtrack that is what I see and hear. 

Cheers!


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## Nico5 (May 6, 2022)

When opening this thread, I was really afraid this was going to lead to a thread about some pro-level midi chord pack


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## markleake (May 6, 2022)

I suggest you check out Mattia Chiappa on YouTube. He's my favourite currently, I'm learning so much from his videos.

He has a series where he takes one melody (for the entire video series!) and re-orchestrates it in any imaginable style, 10 orchestrations for each video. The great thing is he breaks down what he did for each style, including the chord choices.

The below video is good also. He takes a mediocre track and makes it great. There's some straight forward string section parts that may help you, and he talks about using chords to add interest...



And this is episode 3 in his "10 Orchestration Techniques" series. But all the episodes are fantastic...


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## liquidlino (May 6, 2022)

Nico5 said:


> When opening this thread, I was really afraid this was going to lead to a thread about some pro-level midi chord pack


I can sell you C minor and D major cheap if you need it! For not much extra I can sell you the pro version with open voicing in the chords too!


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## liquidlino (May 6, 2022)

tc9000 said:


> think I need to study harmony. Modulation. Cadences. Is that right? Please point me at something that will help me escape from this four chord hell?


Do it, just start somewhere and start learning music theory properly, you will 100% not regret it. I've been doing it the last few months well worth it. I did thinkspace how to write music and harmony one. Now I'm studying from workbooks to go deeper. Massive improvements already (still got a long way to go though!). Circle of fifths is so powerful once you start understanding how to use it.


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## StillLife (May 6, 2022)

Nico5 said:


> When opening this thread, I was really afraid this was going to lead to a thread about some pro-level midi chord pack


You can tell it's pro when it even has minor chords! Yo man, that's insane!


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## Nico5 (May 7, 2022)

StillLife said:


> You can tell it's pro when it even has minor chords! Yo man, that's insane!


and chords with four notes! Totally next level stuff!


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## The Retroblueman (May 7, 2022)

I think your problem is that you start with a four note melody, which leads you straight to four chords, and, deeper than that, you start with a very dull four note *rhythm *underpinning it all. Here's a trick for breaking out of the rhythmic doldrums that may help - take the first sentence from today's newspaper that you read - e.g. todays Times gives me "_The Conservatives have lost hundreds of council seats to Labour and the Liberal Democrats_". And try and write a few (diverse) melodies that fit the "rhythm" of that (in major and minor keys, and why not in a few of the modes?). Then try to harmonise the melodies.

Unfortunately, as others on the thread have pointed out, you will need the pro version of the midi chord pack for this 😉


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## liquidlino (May 7, 2022)

The Retroblueman said:


> I think your problem is that you start with a four note melody, which leads you straight to four chords, and, deeper than that, you start with a very dull four note *rhythm *underpinning it all. Here's a trick for breaking out of the rhythmic doldrums that may help - take the first sentence from today's newspaper that you read - e.g. todays Times gives me "_The Conservatives have lost hundreds of council seats to Labour and the Liberal Democrats_". And try and write a few (diverse) melodies that fit the "rhythm" of that (in major and minor keys, and why not in a few of the modes?). Then try to harmonise the melodies.
> 
> Unfortunately, as others on the thread have pointed out, you will need the pro version of the midi chord pack for this 😉


I really love Guy Michelmores advice on rhythm - steal it! If you take rhythms from melodies that you like, and use totally different notes, the result will be completely unrecognisable as being derived from the original, but will still have interesting rhythm that works.


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## tc9000 (May 7, 2022)

chillbot said:


> That is quite a yawner.
> 
> But I don't know it's the fault of the chords. You can write an interesting track that only uses one chord, never changes at all. I think it's more the constant swelling shape/motion of the orchestra that repeats over and over and over, seemingly never ending. Though on the other hand, repetition builds tension... I could see this working in the right scene in the right movie.
> 
> ...


Ahh this is really useful thankyou! I have discovered using sus chords at the end of a chord sequence - and I will study these chord sequences you provided in depth!

Oh - the dynamics - you are bang on of course. I literally have the same arc mod wheel pattern for every track  I can do this much better - but dynamics in general seems much less insurmounable than harmony.


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## Houdini (May 7, 2022)

I am the least qualified person in this forum to give advice, but I watched this the other day and I think it suits your kind of problems. I agree with what has already been said, you can do a lot with 4 chords.


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## tc9000 (May 7, 2022)

monochrome said:


> I think an idea that might help is to experiment with free time/quasi-improvisation. if you're in a DAW, maybe try dipping in and out of the grid for small moments, it could help your piece feel more alive as well. you could cut chord progressions short or maybe make them longer sometimes, or try not to worry so much about progressions at all, any change in the routine might spark new ideas.
> 
> counter melodies and polyrhythms are a great way to introduce new ideas that can be developed. yes I think learning about modulation will help a ton, but not necessarily key changes specifically, just how to add a modal chord here or there to drive the piece
> 
> ...


Great points all - I will investigate modal chords - oh and getting off the grid is a superb idea! I have sometimes experimented with turning off the metronome in the DAW and using it like a tape machine and I will revisit this for sure. I have also experiented with rubato and tempo maps andI can see the power of staying on grid but making the grid 'breath' with human variations.

I agree on the melody not popping out like it should - its like the players arent commiting to the melody 🙃 HA! how have I managed to program that? Actually - I think I know - it's where I've played in the melody on multiple tracks seperately and rather then benefit from the variations, it sounds like the players are unsure! HAHA go me! But yeah - this needs some more thought. Again - I know I could make the melody pop more with EQ / dynamic MB EQ and other tricks, but I think fixing the _performance_ is the way to go.

Overall your comment about _direction _is key: its like I start at A and just stay there! Music needs to be a journey from one place to another - I can do this with dynamics - crescendo, building parts etc, but I can't do it melodically - so that's something I will think about - how to traverse from A to B melodically.

Thankyou for the detailed response - lots to think about there!


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## tc9000 (May 7, 2022)

damirexus said:


> In my opinion the thing point is not the number of different chords but your ability to manipulate different aspects of musical flow. Orchestration, form, dynamics and diversity of musical elements. For example in this track you/ve posted, just bringing in some new rhytmic pattern coulb be enough to keep your journey going. I am not a pro but when I hear Dunkir soundtrack that is what I see and hear.
> 
> Cheers!


You are quite right - great writers can tell an interesting story and take the listener on a journey with a few simple chords, and this can convey powerful emotions. Absolutely not neglecting orchestration, form, dynamics and diversity of musical elements, but as I play by ear, those hills seem more surmountable to me, compared to the K2 of harmony. 

A rhytmic pattern is a great point - everything in that track is whole note! I was playing with Ashton Gleckman's Time mockup and there is a section where the interplay between a staccatto pattern and sustained note chords creates something magical.... I will try pairing back some of the multiple longs and introducing some short note rhytmic patterns - good call!


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## tc9000 (May 7, 2022)

markleake said:


> I suggest you check out Mattia Chiappa on YouTube. He's my favourite currently, I'm learning so much from his videos.
> 
> He has a series where he takes one melody (for the entire video series!) and re-orchestrates it in any imaginable style, 10 orchestrations for each video. The great thing is he breaks down what he did for each style, including the chord choices.
> 
> ...



Subbed! This looks ideal - thankyou!


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## tc9000 (May 7, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Do it, just start somewhere and start learning music theory properly, you will 100% not regret it. I've been doing it the last few months well worth it. I did thinkspace how to write music and harmony one. Now I'm studying from workbooks to go deeper. Massive improvements already (still got a long way to go though!). Circle of fifths is so powerful once you start understanding how to use it.


I'm a big fan of Guy Michelmore - I will investigate how to write music and harmony one. Circle of fifths is interesting - I'm aware of this from Jazz, but I can play it (with a nice alternating bass line :-D) without _understanding_ it - I will def review this and how I can use it - thanks!


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## Satorious (May 7, 2022)

Can sympathise - four chord in 4/4 meter is my default, generally changing a chord on each bar. So now when I want shake things up just a little - I now often try holding one chord over two bars (eg. at the start or end), or put two chords in the final bar - just to take the composition somewhere different.


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## ed buller (May 7, 2022)

A simple exercise that can help loads is to play a three note chord, say C maj. Then see where you can go to

1; another major chord
2, another minor chord
3, another diminished chord
4, another augmented chord.

So if you pla c maj, raise the g to a you get A min. But lets make it hard. You are only allowed to move by a semitone....and only one note. !!

so if you go down from c you get a b, then you play e minor. Now raise the g a semitone and you get E maj. Now flatten the e and you get Ab min . Now raise the b and get Ab Min...lower the Ab and get C min !!!!


all by moving one finger. That's three notes. Try it with 4.

Just see how many chords you can get to with the smallest movement.










This is a list of where you can go in one movement from Cmaj/min.....Notice how smooth these changes are

best

ed


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## tc9000 (May 7, 2022)

The Retroblueman said:


> I think your problem is that you start with a four note melody, which leads you straight to four chords, and, deeper than that, you start with a very dull four note *rhythm *underpinning it all. Here's a trick for breaking out of the rhythmic doldrums that may help - take the first sentence from today's newspaper that you read - e.g. todays Times gives me "_The Conservatives have lost hundreds of council seats to Labour and the Liberal Democrats_". And try and write a few (diverse) melodies that fit the "rhythm" of that (in major and minor keys, and why not in a few of the modes?). Then try to harmonise the melodies.
> 
> Unfortunately, as others on the thread have pointed out, you will need the pro version of the midi chord pack for this 😉


Really interesting idea - I'm sure I've seen this done with TV theme tunes - I swear they sometimes took the actual title of the show as a starting point template rhythm for the melody. Anyway - fully agree - an interesting rhythmic phrase for the melody would for sure add spice! Noted!

Also: Modes feature again - interesting. I sort of distantly understand these, but I think I need to dig further into modes. Much further. Thanks!


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## liquidlino (May 7, 2022)

tc9000 said:


> I'm a big fan of Guy Michelmore - I will investigate how to write music and harmony one. Circle of fifths is interesting - I'm aware of this from Jazz, but I can play it (with a nice alternating bass line :-D) without _understanding_ it - I will def review this and how I can use it - thanks!


Just as a brief demo of power of circle of fifths/music theory. Modulating from Eb major to it's relative minor Cm, try these chords:

EbMaj, Gm/D, EbMaj, Fm/C, Gmaj/B and then Cm.

Where I've written Chord/Note - that means play that bass note as the lowest note (i.e. inversion). See how smoothly you've just gone from major to minor. It starts by re-enforcing to the listener that we're in Eb Maj by starting on the I chord of Eb scale, moving across ii and iii chords of the major scale. Then with an authentic cadence in the last two chords from V to i of Cm scale (GMaj to Cm) to re-enforce to the listener that you've now moved to Cm from EbMaj scale.

And then, you could use four part harmony rules to create a nice four part harmony that sounds good.


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## tc9000 (May 7, 2022)

Satorious said:


> Can sympathise - four chord in 4/4 meter is my default, generally changing a chord on each bar. So now when I want shake things up just a little - I now often try holding one chord over two bars (eg. at the start or end), or put two chords in the final bar - just to take the composition somewhere different.


I like this! I think this could be very powerful in the sense that it's not just movement, but sometimes _holding_ a chord could trigger that unexpected / interesting flavour response. This is a great starting point for escaping four chord town!


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## tc9000 (May 7, 2022)

ed buller said:


> A simple exercise that can help loads is to play a three note chord, say C maj. Then see where you can go to
> 
> 1; another major chord
> 2, another minor chord
> ...


This is awesome - I will take some time to go over this - thankyou!


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## tc9000 (May 7, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Just as a brief demo of power of circle of fifths/music theory. Modulating from Eb major to it's relative minor Cm, try these chords:
> 
> EbMaj, Gm/D, EbMaj, Fm/C, Gmaj/B and then Cm.
> 
> ...


OK this looks like one of those deceptively concise descriptions of a powerful and complex concept - thankyou - I will def take some time to mull this one over! Food for thought here!


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## tc9000 (May 7, 2022)

Houdini said:


> I am the least qualified person in this forum to give advice, but I watched this the other day and I think it suits your kind of problems. I agree with what has already been said, you can do a lot with 4 chords.



Subbed - thankyou! Also: very true nothing wrong with four chords - it works for a reason - its a pleasing mini 'journey' I guess - but it's got to be a consious choice, not the only option (as it has been for me, alas). Oh and its got to be the _right _four chords hehe...


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## tc9000 (May 7, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> I really love Guy Michelmores advice on rhythm - steal it! If you take rhythms from melodies that you like, and use totally different notes, the result will be completely unrecognisable as being derived from the original, but will still have interesting rhythm that works.


Ah, now this seems like an interesting experiment - take a melodic rhythm and use it as the skeleton for a new melody - I can def see me doing this in the notation grid - kicking notes up and down but preserving the timing - adding this to my list! Thanks!


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## gamma-ut (May 7, 2022)

ed buller said:


> This is a list of where you can go in one movement from Cmaj/min.....Notice how smooth these changes are


The shortest crash course to neo-Riemannian theory, evah!


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## tc9000 (May 7, 2022)

Christ! I've got so much _work _to do! HAHA JKJK it's been great to get so many ideas - I can see me allotting quite a few afternoon composition sessions to all of these! Thanks everyone...

Now, I just need a couple of MIDI packs and one more _wafer thin_ mastering EQ / soundgoodizer and I'll be set.

Seriously though - rather than aimless noodling it's awesome to know I have a bunch of experiments I can try out that will no doubt push me into new melodic territory!


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## GtrString (May 7, 2022)

Try no chords at all, stick to a diatonic scale, and then analyze afterwards what harmony the composition ended up with.


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## tc9000 (May 7, 2022)

GtrString said:


> Try no chords at all, stick to a diatonic scale, and then analyze afterwards what harmony the composition ended up with.


You mean like start with the naked melody? Oh! Yeah - interesting - why do I always start with chords? Great idea! I do sometimes start with a pedal tone or a held chord and then pick a scale and noodle a melody over the top. Going full naked melody at the start though - interesting... I will try this - I think it would also work with a new / interesting / unfamiliar scale / mode... er.. thingie.


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## tc9000 (May 7, 2022)

I'll add one technique of my own - your username reminded me of this! Playing an acoustic guitar library on the midi keyboard forced me to play the chords like a guitarist would - spread out open chords - this in itself resulted in interesting, new melodic directions. I confess - I play by ear and am very "shape" focussed - this means that new "shapes" - inversions / unusual chord voicings - open up new worlds of opportunity. Yeah, I have _lots _to learn 🙃


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## GtrString (May 7, 2022)

Yeah, you can start from anything. if you think about orchestra sections. Like.. do a melody in the violins, then a bass line, then a counter line in the violas, and an ostinato riff in the second violins. Or any other order. No chord, but together they form harmonies from time to time (like a chord)

You can do the same with a band, try a synth melody, then bass line, a pad, and a riff with a guitar. Or any other order. No chord, but together they form a harmony in various spots (like a chord)

Then vary the order in the sections/ form you use, and reuse some of the stuff to maintain recognition and a "red line" in the piece.

There are so many ways to work.. and they definitely give you different sounds. No need to cluster notes together all the time with the same instrument


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## damirexus (May 7, 2022)

Stumbled upon this video today, could be useful for you as well as for me. Take a look, tips are spot on.


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## tc9000 (May 7, 2022)

damirexus said:


> Stumbled upon this video today, could be useful for you as well as for me. Take a look, tips are spot on.



Subbed - yeah this looks perfect for me - thanks!


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## The Retroblueman (May 7, 2022)

tc9000 said:


> Really interesting idea - I'm sure I've seen this done with TV theme tunes - I swear they sometimes took the actual title of the show as a starting point template rhythm for the melody. Anyway - fully agree - an interesting rhythmic phrase for the melody would for sure add spice! Noted!
> 
> Also: Modes feature again - interesting. I sort of distantly understand these, but I think I need to dig further into modes. Much further. Thanks!



Well, the easy way into modes is just to play the notes of C major starting on different notes and go from there (start on C and play all white notes and it's Ionian, start on D and play all white notes and it's dorian, start on E - phrygian, , F lydian, G Mixolydian, A, Aeolian, and B Locrian). If you know all the major scales, then you in principle know all the modes

*However*, I found that only really worked for learning the notes of the modes and not for the application of them to making actual music. I think for that it's better to think of the modes as, literally, "moods" and then just spend some time with each mode getting a feel for the mood- so for D dorian mode, record a long sustained D, or repeated Ds in the bass in your DAW (maybe with a gentle drum loop), and then just play around with chords and single note stuff on the white notes on the keyboard (I find Dorian has a "trad Irish" sort of feel to it, but Miles Davis may beg to differ - see "So What"). You'll have little use for the locrian mode I suspect so I would just leave that one well alone.

I also found modes were easier to conceptualise when I started thinking of them as "altered" versions of the minor and major scales - so Dorian is the natural minor with a raised 6th, Phrygian the natural minor with a flattened 2nd, Lydian the major scale with a raised fourth, mixolydian the major scale with a flatted 7th and Aeolian is just the natural minor scale - and that made it easier for me to "slip into" the modes from whatever key I was in. But this may just be me: )


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## tc9000 (May 7, 2022)

_"thinking of them as "altered" versions of the minor and major scales"_

I like this! Like major / minor scales but with a twisted note here or there... this really helps - as simple as it probably seems to others I think I glanced over the modes and moved on, not comprehending. At all. Now I need to go back and spend more time, to get a feel for each of the mode's... er... moods.


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## youngpokie (May 8, 2022)

tc9000 said:


> I want to break out. I think I need to study harmony. Modulation. Cadences. Is that right?


In my opinion, the easiest way is to learn some turnarounds, the use of a cadence to close a progression and then to convert this basic knowledge to muscle memory. 

The reason it's the easiest path is because these are the very building blocks of harmonic and melodic variation, which is the most effective strategy to do what you're trying to achieve.

Here's a quick (and cheesy) example using only your initial melody and chords, repeated a bunch of times with variation. Sorry for such sloppy playing; this is exported straight from Pianoteq.


View attachment 2022-05-08 1228 (Sunday) 298 notes, 78 seconds.mp3



Your 4-chord structure is a version of i-V progression that is played twice (1 time as g minor - d minor, 2nd time as Eb major - d minor). I call it a version because you are substituting the standard chords: for example, you use d minor (v) instead of the textbook standard D major (V); and Eb major (VI) instead of g minor (i). Chord substitution a great and easy way to introduce harmonic variation.

What I did is basically repeat your 4-chord progression (i-V) but with the following variation: 
- your chords/melody as I heard them on 1st listen 
- segment (a) of the repeat: using different chord substitutions than yours (g, Eb, Gb, F),
- segment (b) - varying the pattern itself (it is now iv-V-i, also repeated twice) 
- and (c) using iv-V pattern, as a cadence (again, twice) to "close" the entire thing. 

The change in harmonic pattern between segment (a) and (b) is not random: the subdominant is not used in the former, and therefore using it in the latter will have a big impact on the vibe, so it's a deliberate choice.

To elaborate the melody, I simply improvised around chord tones taking your melodic arc (ascending shape) but using shorter note durations. Shortening notes in repeats is the most effective technique to expand and fill out the melody, in my view.

Finally, I did use two simple tricks: stepwise descending bass in (a) allowed me to tonicize a chord (basically, fake a modulation) and start my segment (b) as if it was already in c minor. The other easy trick was to lengthen the iv-V-i progression in the same segment by inserting filler chord (f-dim). Both of these are basic easy to learn and can be very useful. 

Cheers!


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## tc9000 (May 8, 2022)

youngpokie said:


> In my opinion, the easiest way is to learn some turnarounds, the use of a cadence to close a progression and then to convert this basic knowledge to muscle memory.
> 
> The reason it's the easiest path is because these are the very building blocks of harmonic and melodic variation, which is the most effective strategy to do what you're trying to achieve.
> 
> ...


Whaaaa1!? This is like a masterclass - thankyou! Your version blows my mind. I will study what you have laid out - your variations do exactly what I aspire to - shift and change the music as it should to keep the listener engaged. Thankyou for this!


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## szczaw (May 8, 2022)

A tonnetz editor would be better but here you can buy tonnetz poster: https://www.redbubble.com/i/poster/...ds-and-scales-by-goodmoodgroup/44559618.LVTDI


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## ed buller (May 8, 2022)

youngpokie said:


> In my opinion, the easiest way is to learn some turnarounds, the use of a cadence to close a progression and then to convert this basic knowledge to muscle memory.
> 
> The reason it's the easiest path is because these are the very building blocks of harmonic and melodic variation, which is the most effective strategy to do what you're trying to achieve.
> 
> ...


Skills

best

e


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## tc9000 (May 8, 2022)

szczaw said:


> A tonnetz editor would be better but here you can buy tonnetz poster: https://www.redbubble.com/i/poster/...ds-and-scales-by-goodmoodgroup/44559618.LVTDI


This is great! I (think I) am a visual learner and also "shape" oriented, so this could be invaluable. I found this article to help me understand:









Using Tonnetz Tone Mesh To Understand Jazz Harmony


The Tonnetz is a 2-dimensional mesh which maps the tonal landscape of western music. It serves as an analytical tools for understanding the theoretical structure of our music.




jazz-library.com





And this open source graphic:









File:Neo-Riemannian Tonnetz.svg - Wikimedia Commons







commons.wikimedia.org





EDIT: Ahh - I see that gamma-ut quoted ed buller's post referencing neo-Riemannian theory... and the Tonnetz is a graphical representation of Neo-Riemannian theory which maps the tonal landscape of western music. Hmmmm - the plot thickens! If nothing else I can now _pretend _I know about this stuff at dinner parties 

But joking aside, this seems highly relevant and I will investigate furhter - thankyou!


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## tc9000 (May 8, 2022)

Sseltenrych said:


> Hey Tc9000,
> I was in your situation a while ago and have put much thought into this topic.
> 
> Here is a brief summary of some things you might find helpful:
> ...



Oh - wow! There is a lot of content here - I will study all of these topics - thankyou! Ah now borrowed chords I keep hearing about and chromatic mediants came up in a recent video... I have a lot of concepts to pick over here! Thankyou!


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## szczaw (May 9, 2022)

tc9000 said:


> EDIT: Ahh - I see that gamma-ut quoted ed buller's post referencing neo-Riemannian theory... and the Tonnetz is a graphical representation of Neo-Riemannian theory which maps the tonal landscape of western music.


As far as I can tell, tonnetz 'tone network' maps the tonal landscape of western music. It was invented first. Neo-Riemannian theory are transformations that tonnetz makes easy to do. If you have tonnetz in from of you, I don't know why would you need neo-Riemannian theory.

With software tonnetz editor you can duplicate last chord and just turn notes on and off around it to get another chord.


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## tc9000 (May 9, 2022)

This is a great visualisation of Gymnopedie No. 1:


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## tc9000 (May 9, 2022)

Regarding Chromatic Mediants - this video explains them in a very clear way:


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## tc9000 (May 9, 2022)

Here's one for Secondary Dominants: (I'm posting these for myself BTW =])


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## tc9000 (May 9, 2022)

.... and one more for Borrowed Chords:


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## PhilA (May 9, 2022)

szczaw said:


> As far as I can tell, tonnetz 'tone network' maps the tonal landscape of western music. It was invented first. Neo-Riemannian theory are transformations that tonnetz makes easy to do. If you have tonnetz in from of you, I don't know why would you need neo-Riemannian theory.
> 
> With software tonnetz editor you can duplicate last chord and just turn notes on and off around it to get another chord.


I’m curious @szczaw which piece of witchcraft software is that in the screen shot?


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## NekujaK (May 9, 2022)

All great advice and references in this thread. Just want to add one more perspective...

Ask yourself who are you composing for? (or for all the grammer police: for whom are you composing?)

IMHO, there are three possible answers that will dictate how best to proceed:

1. *GENERAL AUDIENCE*: If this is the answer, don't sweat over chord progressions. Your only goal is to make music that your audience enjoys listening to. Centuries of folk and popular music have proven that 3- and 4-chord progressions are more than sufficient for audiences to happily listen to music over and over again, and continue to want more. The average listener doesn't care about how many chords you use, or what they are. They just want to enjoy the music. So if your 4-chord progressions are enough to entertain your audience, don't succumb to the demons who prod you to add more chords for no specific purpose.

2. *YOURSELF*: If you're trying to make composing more creatively satisfying for you personally, then by all means soak up all the knowledge recommended in this thread and put it into practice. There's nothing wrong with being armed with more knowledge and techniques. Just be aware that it may or may not have as meaningful an impact on your audience as it does for you. And if taken to extremes, may even alienate an audience.

3. *OTHER MUSICIANS/COMPOSERS*: Aaaaack! Don't ever do this! Other musicians will always have something to critique about your music. Don't listen to them. Follow your instincts. Learn from music that inspires you. Nurture your own creative vision. Seek knowledge that will help further your creative expression. Occasionally asking for other composer's opinions is perfectly fine, but don't make that your final destination.

Even if it's being produced for purely commercial purposes, music is still art, and art by its very nature is subjective. I can't tell you how many times I've submitted a selection of musical ideas to a director or music supervisor, only to have them pick the one idea I quickly sketched in a matter of minutes and included only as filler. There is tremendous power in simplicity.

My biggest internal battle as a composer is constantly fending off the urge to add complexity.

Good luck and have fun!


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## youngpokie (May 9, 2022)

tc9000 said:


> Your version blows my mind. I will study what you have laid out - your variations do exactly what I aspire to


Thanks, I appreciate it! By the way, it's really good that you're looking at the many different options here. Once you find the one that resonates the most, try sticking with it - that way you'll avoid going in circles and re-setting your mind from one framework to another every time. Good luck!


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## szczaw (May 9, 2022)

PhilA said:


> I’m curious @szczaw which piece of witchcraft software is that in the screen shot?


That's Renoise and 'no dumb idea left behind' scripting.


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## Saxer (May 9, 2022)

For analyzing songs / jazz standards / classical pieces there's an app called "Mapping Tonal Harmony Pro". It plays chords and shows the relationship to each other on the screen. Looks a bit overwhelming at first but if you load simple example songs (like basic blues) the principal is very simple and clever.

It shows the main functions I IV V as a kind of island and all the parallel functions and substitutes are placed around them. Different tonal centers (modulations) have their own islands. A cursor moves around showing in realtime the functional way of the chords while you listen.


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## carlc (May 9, 2022)

I would be curious what people think of standard progression maps like the image attached here? It is pretty formulaic but could serve as a decent starting point.


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## Aldunate (May 9, 2022)

There are no shortcuts, take your time.
Make short term targets (1-2 months), medium (2-3 years) and long ones (5 - 7 years).


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## MaxOctane (May 9, 2022)

This is honestly the first _actually useful_ thread on VI-C that I've read in months, as far as improving musical skills goes.


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## PhilA (May 9, 2022)

szczaw said:


> That's Renoise and 'no dumb idea left behind' scripting.


Thanks. Heard of Renoise but never used it 👍🏻


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## Jotto (May 9, 2022)

I would recomend a course like Scoreclub. And imo try to stay away from YouTube. You can watch videoes for the rest if your life. And that is the trap. Having said that.. there is a lot of good info there, but its just so tempting to just watch one more..one more. And never do the work that you should do in order to learn anything.


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## liquidlino (May 9, 2022)

Jotto said:


> I would recomend a course like Scoreclub. And imo try to stay away from YouTube. You can watch videoes for the rest if your life. And that is the trap. Having said that.. there is a lot of good info there, but its just so tempting to just watch one more..one more. And never do the work that you should do in order to learn anything.


Thats a very very good point. I've been conciously taking each learning either from workbooks or YouTube and repeatedly applying it in little exercices, fully internalizing the in knowledge. For example, four part harmony writing I've lost count of how many eight bar sentence form four part harmonies I've written in the last month, each one I've carefully and methodically applied all the rules. Occasionally to break the learning I've then gone on to orchestrate and produce the eight bars, but that's been the exception.


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## youngpokie (May 10, 2022)

carlc said:


> I would be curious what people think of standard progression maps like the image attached here? It is pretty formulaic but could serve as a decent starting point.


I think "the formula" is what gives tonal music the sense of unfolding story, within which there is a clear beginning, middle and end which exist organically and naturally already within S-T (or IV-I) and D-T (or V-I). The angle here is to embrace and master the formula as a "skeleton" as it were, and then to skillfully dress it up with harmonic variation, melody, texture, figuration, etc. But this approach can indeed appear formulaic and even primitive in the beginning, especially if there's no patience to take it step by step in a systematic way.

As for the progression maps like the one you attached, imho they are derived from jazz and they could become counterproductive for orchestral music that's based on beginning/middle/end framework. That's because jazz is based on improvisation as the goal - and this requires an underlying chord progression that's endlessly repeatable as the background against which performance improvisation can happen. But when this mindset is applied to writing in the way I've defined it, a typical outcome is something that feels meandering, going in circles and incomplete. The question "what do I do next" is completely overwhelmed by this "circular" model and usually another circle is exactly what happens.

For this reason, I think functional theory is most effective when it is perceived as a series of simple 2, 4 or 8 bar segments that are strung together in a way that clearly builds those story anchors: a beginning, middle and a clear ending (the cadence). In other words - the goal is not a circle and not a unform smooth chain of chords, but rather an arc that has a clear peak (e.g. a D) and an end.


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## carlc (May 10, 2022)

youngpokie said:


> I think "the formula" is what gives tonal music the sense of unfolding story, within which there is a clear beginning, middle and end which exist organically and naturally already within S-T (or IV-I) and D-T (or V-I). The angle here is to embrace and master the formula as a "skeleton" as it were, and then to skillfully dress it up with harmonic variation, melody, texture, figuration, etc. But this approach can indeed appear formulaic and even primitive in the beginning, especially if there's no patience to take it step by step in a systematic way.
> 
> As for the progression maps like the one you attached, imho they are derived from jazz and they could become counterproductive for orchestral music that's based on beginning/middle/end framework. That's because jazz is based on improvisation as the goal - and this requires an underlying chord progression that's endlessly repeatable as the background against which performance improvisation can happen. But when this mindset is applied to writing in the way I've defined it, a typical outcome is something that feels meandering, going in circles and incomplete. The question "what do I do next" is completely overwhelmed by this "circular" model and usually another circle is exactly what happens.
> 
> For this reason, I think functional theory is most effective when it is perceived as a series of simple 2, 4 or 8 bar segments that are strung together in a way that clearly builds those story anchors: a beginning, middle and a clear ending (the cadence). In other words - the goal is not a circle and not a unform smooth chain of chords, but rather an arc that has a clear peak (e.g. a D) and an end.


Makes sense, thank you! Perhaps the loop structures could be used at a micro-level, within one of the beginning/middle/end sections without imposing a loop on the larger construct.


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## youngpokie (May 10, 2022)

carlc said:


> Perhaps the loop structures could be used at a micro-level


Yes, that's exactly how I think about it. In a model based on functional theory, a classical beginning segment is a 1 or 2 bar sequence of Tonic - Subdominant or Tonic - Dominant. These are functions, not yet the chords themselves. And yes, this segment is most often is looped. And any chord that's usable in the T function can be used for playback, just as any chord usable in S function can be played for S. That's what I did in the snippet I posted.

Another example of looped T-S progression with chord substitution: _c maj - f maj - a min - d min_. Yet another is to keep moving the bass a 3rd down and flipping the mode: _c maj - a min - f maj - d min - Bb maj - g min_ - and so on. It's still a T-S, looped forever. Circle of fifth itself can be understood in this way. And that's where the jazz approach comes from and that's why chord substitution is such an important skill in jazz.

This can get very sophisticated rather quickly. In any key, all chords built on any scale step can be used as one of the 3 functions. Additionally, there are chords built on chromatic tones that can also be used in the same way. Then there are alterations of these chords that are used as if they were brand new chords. And then there is the technique of prolongation where several chords are used as a single function. The available palette of chords and chord combinations very quickly becomes simply enormous. And that's not even getting into modulation or tonicization.

But what functional theory does is insist on enclosing the logic of any chord progression within some meaningful arc that has a clear beginning, climax and an end. Start with a T-S, establish it for a bit, then set up a climax with a T-D and finally conclude with a D-T, etc.


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## tc9000 (May 10, 2022)

NekujaK said:


> All great advice and references in this thread. Just want to add one more perspective...
> 
> Ask yourself who are you composing for? (or for all the grammer police: for whom are you composing?)
> 
> ...


Great advice - I fully agree and it's really option 2 for me! I do hear you: complexity for its own sake can be a real turn off for listeners - and orthodoxy can kill innovation. I'll add one of my own (and this is me saying this not you - no straw men here!): maybe knowledge isn't just an enabler - it can be a bit of a gilded cage - a beautiful, self-confirming, mind prison.... but still, balancing that subtle concept against the brutal harsh reality of the _lack _of knowledge... yeah I think where I'm at is at the "a bit more theory needed" place :-D


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## tc9000 (May 10, 2022)

Saxer said:


> For analyzing songs / jazz standards / classical pieces there's an app called "Mapping Tonal Harmony Pro". It plays chords and shows the relationship to each other on the screen. Looks a bit overwhelming at first but if you load simple example songs (like basic blues) the principal is very simple and clever.
> 
> It shows the main functions I IV V as a kind of island and all the parallel functions and substitutes are placed around them. Different tonal centers (modulations) have their own islands. A cursor moves around showing in realtime the functional way of the chords while you listen.



This is great! I'm really interested in visual aides and apps that help make theory more interactive. Thankyou - I will def check this out.


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## tc9000 (May 10, 2022)

carlc said:


> I would be curious what people think of standard progression maps like the image attached here? It is pretty formulaic but could serve as a decent starting point.


I'm certainly interested in these. There must be collections of common progressions - I recall talk of fake books from when I used to hang about with a bunch of crazy jazz musicians... but those were much more simplistic sequences of roman numerals. It makes sense to have a more developed "language" to describe such progressions and if that's what this is then yeah - sounds great!


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## tc9000 (May 10, 2022)

Aldunate said:


> There are no shortcuts, take your time.
> Make short term targets (1-2 months), medium (2-3 years) and long ones (5 - 7 years).


I'm in no rush, but I do want to keep moving forward and I have been a bit stagnant recently. I will think about actually commiting to some targets - thats quite a powerful idea - I'm a little bit scared by that HAHAH


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## tc9000 (May 10, 2022)

MaxOctane said:


> This is honestly the first _actually useful_ thread on VI-C that I've read in months, as far as improving musical skills goes.


OK so full disclosure, when I get time for music stuff, I just flit between:

- looking at sales / buying stuff I dont need - 50%
- writing new tracks - 20%
- noodling about playing songs I already know - 15%
- loading up old tracks and tweaking them - 5%
- loading up other peoples midi tracks into the DAW and studying them - 5%
- actively increasing my theory knowledge - be it passively watching youtube vids / reading theory websites / studying theory courses / practicing theory concepts - 5%

... and surprise suprise, I havent really developed at all musically for quite a while... so this is an attempt to change those ratios a bit. The truth is progression is hard and shopping for plugins and noodling about is super easy and relaxing 🙃

EDIT: but also - let's have more threads about compostion! Screw all this sales stuff and let's please all post more stuff about _music_! PLEASE!!!


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## tc9000 (May 10, 2022)

Jotto said:


> I would recomend a course like Scoreclub. And imo try to stay away from YouTube. You can watch videoes for the rest if your life. And that is the trap. Having said that.. there is a lot of good info there, but its just so tempting to just watch one more..one more. And never do the work that you should do in order to learn anything.


I totally get this: there is a time to sit back and let knowledge and theory wash over you: absorb, consume, reflect.... and there is a time to roll up your damn sleeves and get hands on! In TV they used to call this "lean back" vs "lean forward". It's a balance and if you don't do enough of each you won't progress - but you can't just do one or the other - it's got to be both.... no doubt.

I have looked at scoreclub and I am very tempted, but I suspect that I'm not quite ready for it. I think I have more fundamental theory and practice to get down before I jump into scoreclub. It looks awesome though!


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## tc9000 (May 10, 2022)

youngpokie said:


> I think "the formula" is what gives tonal music the sense of unfolding story, within which there is a clear beginning, middle and end which exist organically and naturally already within S-T (or IV-I) and D-T (or V-I). The angle here is to embrace and master the formula as a "skeleton" as it were, and then to skillfully dress it up with harmonic variation, melody, texture, figuration, etc. But this approach can indeed appear formulaic and even primitive in the beginning, especially if there's no patience to take it step by step in a systematic way.
> 
> As for the progression maps like the one you attached, imho they are derived from jazz and they could become counterproductive for orchestral music that's based on beginning/middle/end framework. That's because jazz is based on improvisation as the goal - and this requires an underlying chord progression that's endlessly repeatable as the background against which performance improvisation can happen. But when this mindset is applied to writing in the way I've defined it, a typical outcome is something that feels meandering, going in circles and incomplete. The question "what do I do next" is completely overwhelmed by this "circular" model and usually another circle is exactly what happens.
> 
> For this reason, I think functional theory is most effective when it is perceived as a series of simple 2, 4 or 8 bar segments that are strung together in a way that clearly builds those story anchors: a beginning, middle and a clear ending (the cadence). In other words - the goal is not a circle and not a unform smooth chain of chords, but rather an arc that has a clear peak (e.g. a D) and an end.


OK this is too advanced for me to understand BUT I love the concept of having a skeleton structure and then fleshing this out. I recall wanting to draw comics as a child and struggling... a grown up comic-loving friend of my Mum got me a "how to draw comics" book - (I think by Stan Lee?) and sure enough, it started out by showing you how to draw a skeleton of the figure you wanted to draw. Once you had that, you could flesh it out with muscles, clothes, etc etc but that starting point skeleton was the foundation... and it was incredible how quickly this propelled my artwork.... I still can't draw hands or feet though >..<


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## Learningtomix (May 10, 2022)

Good luck with your musical quest tc9000!!

As a songwriter / musician there are so many modes to go between, from research, theory learning, instrument practice/technique, noodling, creation, arrangement, DAW action, consumer, sampler (of others work, and of e.g., professional tools) , producer, computer nerd, liaser, collaborator and more besides! It's a varied life.

* I class noodling as useful as it aids my creativity. Many of my songs have their origin in noodling!


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## tc9000 (May 10, 2022)

Learningtomix said:


> Good luck with your musical quest tc9000!!
> 
> As a songwriter / musician there are so many modes to go between, from research, theory learning, instrument practice/technique, noodling, creation, arrangement, DAW action, consumer, sampler (of others work, and of e.g., professional tools) , producer, computer nerd, liaser, collaborator and more besides! It's a varied life.
> 
> * I class noodling as useful as it aids my creativity. Many of my songs have their origin in noodling!


You are right - for me also noodling is actually incredibly creative. Sadly though, when I noodle, it's mainly just hitting chord shapes I know well and moving these around intervals I understand... and I find that my noodling inevitably tends towards the same common progressions. I need new noodle fuel 

EDIT: I have gallons of it here! HAHAH I just need to work though it all


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## Learningtomix (May 10, 2022)

tc9000 said:


> You are right - for me also noodling is actually incredibly creative. Sadly though, when I noodle, it's mainly just hitting chord shapes I know well and moving these around intervals I understand... and I find that my noodling inevitably tends towards the same common progressions. I need new noodle fuel
> 
> EDIT: I have gallons of it here! HAHAH I just need to work though it all


Yes, I know what you mean about repetition of familiar patterns. I usually try to include at least some new stuff i've deliberately learnt when noodling, so new techniques and patterns become, as you said, the new 'noodle fuel'. For example, lately i've been trying to use spread triads. Having said that, I still get stuck in a rut often, with pentatonics especially, and also Aeolian lines that i've already 'mined' and used in songs.

I figure it takes maybe an hour or two of noodling to come up with a riff or progression component (not necessarily good!). But for that to work I need to be in a creative state of mind, and I can't turn that on like a tap - the noodling somehow helps to create the conditions though for the creative state to happen.

Happy noodling!!


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## markleake (May 10, 2022)

@tc9000 Here's a great website for playing around with chords / creating chord progressions:









The Epic Online Orchestra - Online Chord Sample Player


Have your favorite chords played by an epic online orchestra! Jam with different chords, create epic chord progressions and export your results as MIDI file or high quality audio.




epiconlineorchestra.com


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## tc9000 (May 10, 2022)

markleake said:


> @tc9000 Here's a great website for playing around with chords / creating chord progressions:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is awesome for when you are AFK! I can envision using this on lunchbreaks at work or when travelling - so simple to use and allows you to focus on the progression (not the playing) of the chords... Thanks!

I can see me building a list of chord progressions URLs on my phone for sure!


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## Rowy van Hest (May 14, 2022)

Studying harmony is the best thing you can do, but in the meantime, you could play with this: 5-part chord progressions


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