# Which Guitar Amp & Effects VSTs would you recommend?



## dman007 (Mar 18, 2018)

Which guitar amp & fx VSTs would you recommend?

Which sound the most realistic?

Which provide the best results for modern rock, hard rock and metal productions?

How do the different ones compare?

And are there any Guitar Instrument VSTis you'd recommend for use with them (for rock, hard rock and metal)?

For both soloing and rhythm.

Any help appreciated. Thanks!


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## Replicant (Mar 18, 2018)

dman007 said:


> Which guitar amp & fx VSTs would you recommend?
> 
> Which sound the most realistic?
> 
> Which provide the best results for modern rock, hard rock and metal productions?



The free ones.

Seriously.

I'd go with LePou's amps like their Marshall sim and that "Legion" one. The TSE X50 is also a great 5150 sim. I don't think it's free anymore, but still pretty cheap.

Combine that with impulses like Catharsis, a tube screamer sim, and you're good to go.



dman007 said:


> And are there any Guitar Instrument VSTis you'd recommend for use with them (for rock, hard rock and metal)?



A lot of VST guitars suck.

But out of the good ones, Prominy's V-Metal is easily the best and Orange Tree makes some great ones too.


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## VgsA (Mar 18, 2018)

I cannot recommend TSE X50v2 enough. Though I might biased because I work with the team, but you can always download the demo and try for yourself. 

EDIT:
Some random riffage I recorded a few days ago, guitars are X50v2 (on real guitars), hope it helps


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## Living Fossil (Mar 18, 2018)

IK Multimedia Amplitube.
Lots of models, the newer ones are fantastic.


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## ftech (Mar 18, 2018)

Ample Sound AME and Impact Soundworks Shreddage are great plugin/sampled guitars. 
Plugin Alliance RockRack Player is free, but limited feature/editing wise, and has some great tones.
Audio Assault often discount their amp sims, and they are worth checking out for those heavier tones.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Mar 18, 2018)

i went through most of them.

i currently use S-Gear, and Amplitube 4 with the Fender(2) and Mesa packs being my faves.

what makes a difference is the JFET pre on my Audient id14.

also, i use pedals for some extra character before my interface.

for clean i use a Mythical Overdrive (Klon) into a VFE Standout (HPF/LPF).

the Amplitube 4 PRINCETON sim is very nice.

for the drivey Marshall and Mesa and similar, i'll use GOOD Ge and Si fuzz pedals into the VFE Standout before my interface.

a decent overdrive pedal works too.

for FREE heavier stuff, IGNITE is fantastic.

http://www.kvraudio.com/developer/ignite-amps


OT:

for bass, i'll use the Mark 2 sims and the Ampeg stuff in Amplitube 4.

sometimes i'll just use a cabinet simulator (IRs) - no amps.

Two Note Wall of Sound is worthy of a look for cabinet stuff.

then there's Kemper and Axe-Fx.


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## Mornats (Mar 18, 2018)

Grab the Guitar Rig Player (free) from Native Instruments and Amplitude Custom Ship to compare. For metal, the Rammfire expansion for Guitar Rig is quite nice.


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## wst3 (Mar 18, 2018)

Guitar amps - I've used Waves GTR, NI Guitar Rig, IK Amplitube, and others, but I always end up back with the Brainworx, Softube, and UA amplifier simulations. Most of mine run on the UAD platform, but I've compared native vs UAD and the differences are pretty subtle. My top favorites right now include the UA Fender 5E3, Chandler GAV19T (native or UA), and the UA Marshall Bluesbreaker. The Softube Amproom plugins are also very effective.

Effects - I really haven't found a suite of software plugins that work for me. The closest I've come so far is (and I can't believe I'm typing this) the Line6 Helix - I have both the hardware and the software, and there are differences, but they are pretty subtle.

Mostly I still use stomp boxes when I want guitar effects. But I'm all for a software solution!!


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## jononotbono (Mar 18, 2018)

Currently trying out S Gear Scuffham (when not using my valve amps). Really liking it especially in combination with outboard Guitar Pedals. Definitely worth checking it out!


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## sean8877 (Mar 18, 2018)

I just picked up this one from Audio Assault, really nice metal/hard rock sound plus an effects rack. I think they still have a deal going on where you enter discount code "welcome" on checkout and you can get it for $5.00:

https://audio-assault.com/products/dominator


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## sostenuto (Mar 18, 2018)

sean8877 said:


> I just picked up this one from Audio Assault, really nice metal/hard rock sound plus an effects rack. I think they still have a deal going on where you enter discount code "welcome" on checkout and you can get it for $5.00:
> 
> https://audio-assault.com/products/dominator



THX for heads-up on this one! Pianist/keyboardist here and really enjoy guitar Libs. Dominator is impressive!
*
Orange Tree Samples* is a fav, and have almost all Greg's creations. Use *Kazrog LLC* Amp/Cab sims for added fun.


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## lp59burst (Mar 18, 2018)

Mostly I use the _*Line 6 Helix Native*_ plug-in and I also own the floor unit too. They are superb...

I also have Scuffham S-Gear, IK Multimedia Amplitude 5 Deluxe, Positive Grid Bias, NI Guitar Rig, and all of OTS's guitars...


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## DSmolken (Mar 19, 2018)

Lots of good free stuff out there. In addition to the above, Shattered Glass Audio Ace for low-gain small tube amp sounds, AXP Flextron for a broad range in a convenient package, and Ignite Amps for modded Tubescreamer pedals, preamps and amps.


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## Raindog (Mar 19, 2018)

Scuffham´s S-gear without a doubt. The most realistic amp simulation I´ve heard. Less models than some other players on the market, less effects but unbeatable regarding sound quality.
Regards
Raindog


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Mar 19, 2018)

S-Gear here as well, fantastic plugin ! Using it with Ownhammer impulse responses. And I'd like to add Mercuriall to the list. They have some amazing free stuff and my favourite Marshall emulation.

A few years ago I had several amps (Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier, Peavey 5150 mk1, Orange Tiny Terror, Marshall JVM410H). Just kept the Rectifier  Amp emulation has really gone a long way since our once beloved POD XT


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## jononotbono (Mar 19, 2018)

I'm glad others have noticed S Gear. Like seriously, it's amazing isn't it. I've really been on the fence about buying a Kemper and no doubt a few years ago, it was the only thing to purchase but now I'm not so sure.

Something that got released recently was a pedal sized Cab emulator by Mooer called the Radar 2. It uses the same technology as a Kemper but is about £120. You need a Guitar amp with an output for it to work but I have been thinking about one for a little while as you can even use the same impulses as the Kemper. 

Anyway, this is slightly off topic as it's hardware but I thought I'd mention it as for around the £120 it could be a very good solution.


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## jononotbono (Mar 19, 2018)

Raindog said:


> Scuffham´s S-gear without a doubt. The most realistic amp simulation I´ve heard. Less models than some other players on the market, less effects but unbeatable regarding sound quality.
> Regards
> Raindog



Yeah man. And something that many others on the market don't have... The response of a real Guitar Amp. It feels (and sounds) like I'm playing through a Guitar Cab with S Gear. Quite the opposite when using, for example, Guitar Rig.


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## leon chevalier (Mar 19, 2018)

Amazing ! I've been doing music with computers for years and their is still some dev I've never heard of !

Thanks for the tip guys, I will try S Gear tonight !


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## leon chevalier (Mar 19, 2018)

sean8877 said:


> I just picked up this one from Audio Assault, really nice metal/hard rock sound plus an effects rack. I think they still have a deal going on where you enter discount code "welcome" on checkout and you can get it for $5.00:
> 
> https://audio-assault.com/products/dominator



I've tried, and it's still working, the welcome code give you 45$ off any product ! thanks

EDIT : Just bought dominator and grind machine 2 !


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## SoNowWhat? (Mar 19, 2018)

lp59burst said:


> Mostly I use the _*Line 6 Helix Native*_ plug-in and I also own the floor unit too. They are superb...
> 
> I also have Scuffham S-Gear, IK Multimedia Amplitude 4 Deluxe, Positive Grid Bias, NI Guitar Rig, and all of OTS's guitars...


+1 for Helix Native. I run my guitars and VI guitars through it. Great. You can run any other (digital signal) instrument through it too which has yielded some interesting results. If you have the hardware unit too the flexibility and usefulness goes up quite a bit (@lp59burst might have more to say on that). You can add 3rd party Impulse Responses if you want to. 

There is a demo available to try out.

For VIs my favourite is any of the Amplesound guitars. They also have some demos to try. I also have Shreddage SRP which I like. I think I am in the minority but, I have the OT Strat and don’t use it as much. That is in no way to say it is bad as it’s not. Just my personal preference. It’s very much a case of choosing which guitar suits the use-case.

I’ve also noticed (unsurprisingly) that specific guitar amp/effects sims will work differently with different guitar VIs. I’ve gotten mixed results with some so definitely try out the demos of instruments and effects when they’re available.

Not sure if Overloud TH3 has been mentioned here yet either. I came close to getting it before I was made aware that Helix Native was in the works. Then I just waited for it, having coveted a hardware Helix for a while.

I tried Guitar Rig but didn’t really gel with it.


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## SoNowWhat? (Mar 19, 2018)

jononotbono said:


> I'm glad others have noticed S Gear. Like seriously, it's amazing isn't it. I've really been on the fence about buying a Kemper and no doubt a few years ago, it was the only thing to purchase but now I'm not so sure.
> 
> Something that got released recently was a pedal sized Cab emulator by Mooer called the Radar 2. It uses the same technology as a Kemper but is about £120. You need a Guitar amp with an output for it to work but I have been thinking about one for a little while as you can even use the same impulses as the Kemper.
> 
> Anyway, this is slightly off topic as it's hardware but I thought I'd mention it as for around the £120 it could be a very good solution.


That is very interesting @jononotbono 
I might go check that out.


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## jononotbono (Mar 19, 2018)

SoNowWhat? said:


> That is very interesting @jononotbono
> I might go check that out.



Here's a video on someone looking at the Mooer Radar 2. I'm not hugely into his type of playing (Metal and High Gain etc) anymore but it doesn't matter. He shows what this little "pedal" can do. A friend of mine runs a decent studio and he's actually buying a few of these soon so I'm looking forward to borrowing one to see what it's like. Could be a very good solution for those of us that own amps, want to use our amps, but can't at 4am etc!


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Mar 19, 2018)

jononotbono said:


> Here's a video on someone looking at the Mooer Radar 2. I'm not hugely into his type of playing (Metal and High Gain etc) anymore but it doesn't matter. He shows what this little "pedal" can do. A friend of mine runs a decent studio and he's actually buying a few of these soon so I'm looking forward to borrowing one to see what it's like. Could be a very good solution for those of us that own amps, want to use our amps, but can't at 4am etc!




I would also recommend having a look at https://www.two-notes.com/en/

I've been using a Torpedo Live for a few years with my band and it's an amazing piece of gear. Their new Torpedo "Captor" is a very interesting product as well for those who want to play/record at home without killing the neighborhood


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## dman007 (Mar 19, 2018)

I should add that I'm working in-the-box, so only using guitar VST instrument, not real guitar, and no outboard gear. 

On the Amps & fx etc, is there a particular VST guitar instrument that works well with a specific guitar amp VST? 

Which do you think is the best on the market? I've heard Scuffham Amps S Gear 2, Amplitude 4, but not familiar with others like TH3, Studio Devil Amp Modeler, Positive Grid Bias, I know there's others too. Have you used any and which do you think is the most realistic and has good workflow within a DAW?


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## Dr Belasco (Mar 19, 2018)

I use one of these mic'd up with MXR pedals mostly.
Not the Twin btw, the 15 inch Eminence option.

https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/25064-fender-57-custom-pro-amp-review

And one of these with the same pedals.

12 inch Celestian.

http://www.fairdealmusic.co.uk/marshall-dsl40cv-vintage-112-combo-limited-edition.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8bnY6K_42QIVp7ztCh3gpQq1EAQYAyABEgKpDvD_BwE


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## SoNowWhat? (Mar 19, 2018)

dman007 said:


> I should add that I'm working in-the-box, so only using guitar VST instrument, not real guitar, and no outboard gear.
> 
> On the Amps & fx etc, is there a particular VST guitar instrument that works well with a specific guitar amp VST?
> 
> Which do you think is the best on the market? I've heard Scuffham Amps S Gear 2, Amplitude 4, but not familiar with others like TH3, Studio Devil Amp Modeler, Positive Grid Bias, I know there's others too. Have you used any and which do you think is the most realistic and has good workflow within a DAW?


My first post in this thread covered some guitar VIs and my thoughts on them, and other options have been mentioned earlier in the thread by other posters. 

I’m reluctant to say which is “best”, or has the “best workflow” as that’s a very personal and subjective thing and may depend on which DAW you use. There are loads of demos that you can try (amp/fx sims and guitar VIs) and I’d suggest having a look at some to find out what works best for you. Sorry if that’s not the answer you were looking for.


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## dman007 (Mar 19, 2018)

Has anyone used Studio Devil Amp Modeler or Positive Grid Bias?


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## Mars (Mar 19, 2018)

My actual favourites are from Mercuriall, they've done a perfect emulation of the Mesa Boogie Triaxis and their "Spark" vst (emulation of 4 marshall amps) is pure joy with a Stratocaster (if you're in a Michael Kamen/Eric Clapton/Lethal Weapon mood  ). 
https://mercuriall.com/cms/details_spark (there are demos available for each vst)


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## Zoot_Rollo (Mar 19, 2018)

Mars said:


> My actual favourites are from Mercuriall, they've done a perfect emulation of the Mesa Boogie Triaxis and their "Spark" vst (emulation of 4 marshall amps) is pure joy with a Stratocaster (if you're in a Michael Kamen/Eric Clapton/Lethal Weapon mood  ).
> https://mercuriall.com/cms/details_spark (there are demos available for each vst)




i have the 530 which isn't my style - good implementation though.

the SPARK, on the other hand, looks pretty good.

NEVER ENOUGH SIMS! 

definitely grabbing the demo.

thanks!


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## sumskilz (Mar 19, 2018)

S-Gear is great for clean or crunchy, but for high gain, check out Kuassa Creme. Less expensive than S-Gear, and maybe more your style.


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## pderbidge (Mar 19, 2018)

dman007 said:


> I should add that I'm working in-the-box, so only using guitar VST instrument, not real guitar, and no outboard gear.
> 
> On the Amps & fx etc, is there a particular VST guitar instrument that works well with a specific guitar amp VST?
> 
> Which do you think is the best on the market? I've heard Scuffham Amps S Gear 2, Amplitude 4, but not familiar with others like TH3, Studio Devil Amp Modeler, Positive Grid Bias, I know there's others too. Have you used any and which do you think is the most realistic and has good workflow within a DAW?



Speaking strictly of Ampsims- I own a few of them - Amplitube 3, Guitar Rig 5, Amp Lion, Positive Grid Bias FX and Bias Amp as well as a bunch of free ones. 
I've tried almost all of them and the two I put at the top of the pack are Scuffham S-gear (on my bucket list) and Positive Grid Bias FX and Bias Amp. Also LePou is really good and hard to believe it's free as it stands up well to the others. I was also really impressed with TH3 from Overloud and would probably put that in a number 3 spot in sound quality if not right along side Bias and S-gear. Also, Guitar Rig 5 can do some really crazy effects, and not just for guitars, that the others cannot and deserves it's own special place for the amount of versatility you can get from it.
Having said that I've heard all of these sound great when mixed properly so make sure not to discount the importance of learning some good mixing techniques. Virtual tape machines, EQ and Compression are your friend with these type of instruments.


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## jiffybox (Mar 19, 2018)

sean8877 said:


> I just picked up this one from Audio Assault, really nice metal/hard rock sound plus an effects rack. I think they still have a deal going on where you enter discount code "welcome" on checkout and you can get it for $5.00:
> 
> https://audio-assault.com/products/dominator



Cheers for that, Sean. Just nabbed it myself and coincidentally got an email from AA with the discount code earlier. Looking forward to the \m/ \m/


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## Henu (Mar 20, 2018)

I am a guitarist and do a lot of (extreme) metal production, and my choice has been Bias Amp (Pro) since it was first released.

Sometimes I go with the cabs they offer (especially now with the Celestions), sometimes I use whatever impulse doing the trick. And sometimes I take the head signal out, feed it through a Marshall 4x12 and mic that. :D
I especially like their amp matching technology, which has saved me many busy situations when wanting to blend some certain band's sound with the original guitar tracks to give a bit more nudging to certain direction. I haven't tried the ReValver, but now that I just got Bias 2 on my hands, I feel it's giving me exactly what I need for now.

For non- metal stuff, I usually go first with Guitar Rig 5, which has been my steady workhorse for everything sporadic ("this song needs a 60´s muted snappy bass part") and other things ranging from pop to funk. It's completely depending on what you are doing, but technically GR5 should already get you going as the best "allaround" plugin.


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## catsass (Mar 20, 2018)

Scuffham S-Gear for me. Great, great sounds. And the way it responds - it feels like you're actually pushing air (if that makes sense). Probably not an ideal choice if you're looking for extreme ultra hi-gain tones.


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 20, 2018)

There are many great options and this is very subjective thing..everyone has their favorites. One I haven't heard mentioned but is one of my favorites is Vox's JamVox3. 

what kind of music will you make?

There are lots of free ones you should start there.

I own and use JamVox, Amplitube4(including expansions such as Fender and others), Sgear, GuitarRig, Recabinet and some free ones from LePou and others. Others worth noting including Revalver, Waves GTR and several others. Some of the free stuff out there is quite good, so start there. It just depends a lot on what you're wanting to do. Revalver is quite flexible in what you can do with it. So is GuitarRig. In the end there are people getting great results from nearly all of these offerings so I'm afraid you will just have to start checking out Youtube videos until you hear something that sounds good and try it out.


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 20, 2018)

ps - since you're not going to be playing a real guitar, I think probably some of the nuance gotten from stuff like Sgear will be lost on you..you're better off getting something really flexible and just start twiddling knobs until you like what you hear. Revalver and Guitar Rig are probably the most flexible, but sheez everyone keeps updating their stuff every year to be bigger, badder and more flexible...so there is just no hard and fast rule.


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## AkashicBird (Apr 4, 2022)

Reviving this thread cause I don't think I've seen a newer one...

I'm currently looking at amp sims. Since I don't know much about guitar amps in general, I'm thinking about some kind of all in one solution.
There's the obvious Amplitube, but the Max version is quite expensive (well, it's all relative but yeah) compared to some competitors which are, it seems, said to be quite good from reviews I've seen : I'm looking at Kuassa Amplifikation 360 right now, also Bluecat's Axiom which seems like the more option-packed one (not showing clerarly which amps are emulated it seems, but maybe it's not that important?).

Opinions? Better alternatives?


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## Mike Fox (Apr 4, 2022)

AkashicBird said:


> Reviving this thread cause I don't think I've seen a newer one...
> 
> I'm currently looking at amp sims. Since I don't know much about guitar amps in general, I'm thinking about some kind of all in one solution.
> There's the obvious Amplitube, but the Max version is quite expensive (well, it's all relative but yeah) compared to some competitors which are, it seems, said to be quite good from reviews I've seen : I'm looking at Kuassa Amplifikation 360 right now, also Bluecat's Axiom which seems like the more option-packed one (not showing clerarly which amps are emulated it seems, but maybe it's not that important?).
> ...


Neural DSP is about as good as it gets.


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## marius_dm (Apr 4, 2022)

Never understood the hype about s-gear really. It's OK, but nothing special, and fairly limited. As far as digital multifx I've had them all, started with POD HD500, then got the HD500X, then Fractal AX8, then Kemper Stage, and now I'm using a Helix Floor. If you can't get cool sounds out of Helix Native, the software is not the problem. Might be too expensive if you don't own the hardware though.


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## oepion (Apr 5, 2022)

AkashicBird said:


> Reviving this thread cause I don't think I've seen a newer one...
> 
> I'm currently looking at amp sims. Since I don't know much about guitar amps in general, I'm thinking about some kind of all in one solution.
> There's the obvious Amplitube, but the Max version is quite expensive (well, it's all relative but yeah) compared to some competitors which are, it seems, said to be quite good from reviews I've seen : I'm looking at Kuassa Amplifikation 360 right now, also Bluecat's Axiom which seems like the more option-packed one (not showing clerarly which amps are emulated it seems, but maybe it's not that important?).
> ...


It really depends on the sort of sound you're looking for - metal, blues, jazz, funk, country, etc.?

If you want an all-in-one solution able to do metal as well as it does jazz, you'll definitely have to spend a fair bit to either own something like AmpliTube Max or own different plugins specialising in different things.

If most of your stuff requires high gain, Neural DSP is the best option as mentioned above in terms of sound quality. Gojira is probably the most versatile metal amp. They do have a few non-metal oriented amps that are also really good (check out the Tone King Imperial or the Cory Wong). They tend to be on the higher end of the spectrum pricewise but they do 50% off at least once a year if you can wait.

If you need to buy multiple plugins but don't want to spend that much, it might be worth looking at PA's amps. They've got high gain stuff (ENGL Savage 120 or the two Diezel) as well as amps for crunch/cleans (the Chandler one, the FUCHS etc.) and others that fall in between (Suhr 100 for example). Decent quality and sound when you can buy them for $29 or $39, possibly less with vouchers as is the case at the moment (you can get at least one for $15 with the monthly $25 voucher, and you can also try them all before you buy).

Positive Grid have AMP 2 and FX 2 which are decent, lots of variety at a fraction of the cost of AmpliTube. They were my go to but after switching to Neural DSP I never looked back.

Nembrini's amps also get positive reviews and are mid-range pricewise. Kuassa is probably the most affordable option when on sale, but they're not very popular.


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## AkashicBird (Apr 5, 2022)

Thanks!
Yeah, Kuassa or Bluecat don't seem to be talked about a lot. But when they do people are usually saying good things. Since I don't have many references it's hard for me to say if they do emulate things well tho (they sound good to me but maybe I can't hear some details that actually make them bad sims), and if they're unpopular because they're newer names, or just cause they don't hold up to the bigger ones everyone knows about.

Thanks for the other recs, I'll check their trials.

About the genre, boring answer : I need versatility (even if right now I tend to favor rock and metal).


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## J-M (Apr 5, 2022)

AkashicBird said:


> About the genre, boring answer : I need versatility (even if right now I tend to favor rock and metal).


I'd seriously take a look at Neural DSP Nolly. Wholeheartedly recommended!


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## Mike Fox (Apr 5, 2022)

J-M said:


> I'd seriously take a look at Neural DSP Nolly. Wholeheartedly recommended!


Nolly combined with Omega is my secret weapon!


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## Zoot_Rollo (Apr 5, 2022)

ToneHub amp packs


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## elucid (Apr 5, 2022)

S-Gear all the way for me (with some Nembrinis to fill in the gaps).


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## dunamisstudio (Apr 5, 2022)

IK Multimedia Amplitude

STL Tones


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## KEM (Apr 5, 2022)

The best amp sims on the market are Neural DSP, no discussion


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## Tim_Wells (Apr 5, 2022)

As mentioned, amp sims are very subjective and there's a lot of good choices. Download some demos, take your time and try them out. It's the only way to find out what YOU like.


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## CATDAD (Apr 5, 2022)

Another vote for Neural DSP!

While I feel like you pay a little extra for branding, and there is a lot of crossover between different models, Neural DSP's plugins are each about as flexible as the amps they are modeled after despite being metal-marketed. Obviously does hi-gain well, but also nothing stopping you from turning the FX off and gain down for crisper, twangier tones when you want them. I enjoy the simplicity and the sound, though I'm also not a connoisseur of guitar tones so my opinion is really just to reinforce the others already in here.


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## Mike Fox (Apr 5, 2022)

CATDAD said:


> Another vote for Neural DSP!
> 
> While I feel like you pay a little extra for branding, and there is a lot of crossover between different models, Neural DSP's plugins are each about as flexible as the amps they are modeled after despite being metal-marketed. Obviously does hi-gain well, but also nothing stopping you from turning the FX off and gain down for crisper, twangier tones when you want them. I enjoy the simplicity and the sound, though I'm also not a connoisseur of guitar tones so my opinion is really just to reinforce the others already in here.


I agree!

I’ve been playing guitar for over 20 years and have either played or owned just about every main rock/metal amp, so I’ve become a tone snob over the years.

With that being said, Neural DSP amp sims are the only ones I’ve tried that require little work to satisfy my picky tastes.

And yeah, their clean tones are also just as good as their dirty ones.


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## kgdrum (Apr 5, 2022)

While I appreciate and respect the opinions of the guitar players here and probably would agree that Neural is probably the best Amp sim, if you’re actually playing a guitar, for people like me who are primarily using amp sims with guitar libraries,synths ,keyboards etc…… I think there will be less real advantages that the Neural line offers. My impression is most guitarists love the tactical response when playing a guitar which will be less evident with libraries and keyboards etc…..
With that being said I like the Overloud line,Nembrini,Kazrog,PA’s offerings,Softube ,Amplitube etc…….
If I played guitar I’d be all over Neural DSP but for my needs I think it’s overkill.


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## Mike Fox (Apr 5, 2022)

kgdrum said:


> While I appreciate and respect the opinions of the guitar players here and probably would agree that Neural is probably the best Amp sim if you’re actually playing a guitar for people like me who are primarily usi amp sims with guitar libraries,synths ,keyboards etc…… I think there will be less benefivial advantages that the Neural line offers. My impression is most guitarists love the tactical response when playing a guitar with really will not be as evident with libraries and keyboards etc…..
> With that being said I like the Overloud line,Nembrini,PA’s offerings,Amplitube etc…….
> If I played guitar I’d be all over Neural DSP but for my needs I think it’s overkill.


Yup, exactly. Neural amp sims are the most “amp like”, which is why guitarists love them so much. They definitely aren’t like playing a real tube amp, so I don’t want to give off that impression, but they are definitely getting closer and closer to the real thing.

But yeah, totally overkill for someone who isn’t plugging their guitar in.


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## oepion (Apr 5, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> With that being said, Neural DSP amp sims are the only ones I’ve tried that require little work to satisfy my picky tastes.


That's exactly also how I feel about their plugins in general. The only thing missing with Neural DSP is a plugin based on a clean "jazz-like" amp, something like a Twin Deluxe, Twin Reverb or a JC120. Even if the cleans are pretty good on most of their plugins, they're still not designed to be played with hollow body guitars in mind. The day Neural DSP comes out with Archetype George Benson or Archetype Lee Ritenour my life will look a lot more complete


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## cel4145 (Apr 5, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> Nolly combined with Omega is my secret weapon!


Gojira, Soldano, and Darkglass here


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## Mike Fox (Apr 5, 2022)

oepion said:


> That's exactly also how I feel about their plugins in general. The only thing missing with Neural DSP is a plugin based on a clean "jazz-like" amp, something like a Twin Deluxe, Twin Reverb or a JC120. Even if the cleans are pretty good on most of their plugins, they're still not designed to be played with hollow body guitars in mind. The day Neural DSP comes out with Archetype George Benson or Archetype Lee Ritenour my life will look a lot more complete


Have you tried the cleans in Plini? If i remember right, they were very Fenderish!


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## oepion (Apr 5, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> Have you tried the cleans in Plini? If i remember right, they were very Fenderish!


Yes I have Plini and it's a great plugin overall, though I haven't been able to make it sound that way "out of the box". Admittedly I haven't spent enough time tweaking all the parameters. Being super lazy, I just load up Guitar Rig's Jazz amps when I want that rounder jazzy clean, but they're not really great sounding. If I actually were to record something for which I needed that sound, I'd probably be more motivated to spend time tweaking the knobs, but for a quick jam it's easier to load up something that's 80% way there. That's why I meant if they came up with a dedicated plugin for these sorts of tone, where you can just open it and it sounds like that, I'd buy it immediately. That's just me being super lazy


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## AkashicBird (Apr 5, 2022)

Well...Neural DSP seems to be the Superior drummer of guitar amp sims haha...
I was avoiding SD3 cause I'm a bit of a contrarian, but I have to admit it was worth the price and I would never go back now. So maybe I'll end up getting DSP plugins.
I'll look into each of those and see which ones seem to offer the more versatility (if I can even grasp what versatility is in a guitar amp)


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## MusiquedeReve (Apr 5, 2022)

AkashicBird said:


> Well...Neural DSP seems to be the Superior drummer of guitar amp sims haha...
> I was avoiding SD3 cause I'm a bit of a contrarian, but I have to admit it was worth the price and I would never go back now. So maybe I'll end up getting DSP plugins.
> I'll look into each of those and see which ones seem to offer the more versatility (if I can even grasp what versatility is in a guitar amp)


Came in this thread to post that, in my experience, NeuralDSP makes the best amp sims out there

Great minds think alike - including when choosing avatars


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## Zoot_Rollo (Apr 5, 2022)

i own several Neural sim products.

never use them.


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## Trash Panda (Apr 5, 2022)

The most important part of your guitar chain is the cab (if playing live) or the cab IR if working ITB. 

Once you have the right cab IR, the differences you’ll hear from different amp sims will range somewhere between minor to cork-sniffing.


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## KerrySmith (Apr 5, 2022)

Neural’s new Tone King amp is un-frickin-believable. I’ve needed a “dirty clean” Fender style amp sim for awhile and I am finally satisfied that I have found it. Their new implementation of a dial-able “room” on the mics adds a great dimension that has been missing in these kind of plugs for a long time. They had the heavy and the sparkly-direct clean things going for awhile, but the Tone King was that final piece for me. It caught me very much by surprise.


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## antret (Apr 5, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> The most important part of your guitar chain is the cab (if playing live) or the cab IR if working ITB.
> 
> Once you have the right cab IR, the differences you’ll hear from different amp sims will range somewhere between minor to cork-sniffing.


This has been my observations as well. I think the ‘pre amp’ modeling has been pretty good for awhile. I think the cab’s are slowly getting there. 

I will also agree with the excitement about some of the dirt clean amps (low/mild overdrive). Glad to see current offerings from ML sound labs (The Humble), Audio Assault (Shibalba) , and that Nembrini one.


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## oepion (Apr 5, 2022)

AkashicBird said:


> I'll look into each of those and see which ones seem to offer the more versatility (if I can even grasp what versatility is in a guitar amp)


You can try each one for 14 days - but to save you some time, look at the more recent ones in terms of versatility as they come with a lot more FX than the older ones. For example with Henson, you get everything from compressor, chorus, reverb to multivoicers (octaver on steroid allowing you to dial in 5 different harmonics of your choosing and not just an octave). It also comes with an acoustic amp, one that is a bit more crunchy and the third is a lot more hi gain. The Petrucci one has tons of FX as well as a Wahwah which the Henson does not have. If you want to focus on the hi gain stuff first and foremost, Gojira is the most versatile in that section.

With that said, the older ones such as the Plini, Nolly, Omega and Fortin Cali might work for you as well - it's just that they don't have as much modulation and FX options, which is not an issue if you have 3rd party plugins but to me that makes them less versatile.

All of them allow you to load IRs and tweak them as you wish so I wouldn't worry about that - you can always get a pack of IR you like best later on (and since you mentioned you were into rock and metal mostly you have tons of options - for that modern metal sound the GGD Cali ones have great reviews).


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## AkashicBird (Apr 5, 2022)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> i own several Neural sim products.
> 
> never use them.


What do you use?



Trash Panda said:


> The most important part of your guitar chain is the cab (if playing live) or the cab IR if working ITB.
> 
> Once you have the right cab IR, the differences you’ll hear from different amp sims will range somewhere between minor to cork-sniffing.


I knew IRs matter but I didn't realize they mattered that much. So basically even a cheap or good free amp with good IRs would sound good ? Even with any IR loader?
Maybe I'll keep my audio assault Reamp for some time and start digging more into IR selection and tweaking....


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## webs (Apr 5, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> The most important part of your guitar chain is the cab (if playing live) or the cab IR if working ITB.
> 
> Once you have the right cab IR, the differences you’ll hear from different amp sims will range somewhere between minor to cork-sniffing.



Recommend places to find the "right" cab IR please?


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## Manontroppo (Apr 6, 2022)

Look for "Ownhammer" or "Redwirez" - solid commercial products mainly for the heavier side of guitar playing ("Does it jent?!"). There are free IRs available all over the place as well as free IR loader VSTs (you need one if the amp sim does not provide one, e.g. Pulse from Lancaster Audio). After all, it is a matter of personal taste, depending on the style of music. And it's easy to open a new can of worms making a project out of this (but it's fun).


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## Mike Fox (Apr 6, 2022)

AkashicBird said:


> What do you use?
> 
> 
> I knew IRs matter but I didn't realize they mattered that much. So basically even a cheap or good free amp with good IRs would sound good ? Even with any IR loader?
> Maybe I'll keep my audio assault Really for some time and start digging more into IR selection and tweaking....


There’s a lot of truth to what @Trash Panda said. It doesn’t really matter how good of an amp sim or real amp you have, if your speakers/cab is junk, then it will sound like junk.

But the same is also true for amps. All amps differ in tone (usually to a noticeable degree), so if you plug a shitty sounding amp into a high end cab, you will always get a shitty sound. The best cab in the world won’t be able to remedy that. No way around it.

But when it comes to amp sims this becomes less important, and i agree with Trash Panda for the most part. Your cab IR’s will probably have more of an influence on the overall tone than your amp sim will. A lot of it has to do with the fact that amp sims just haven’t caught up to real amps in general yet, so a lot of those nuances and dynamics you get from a real tube amp are left out of the equation, especially in a full mix where some of your tone gets buried anyway.

That’s not to say there isn’t an actual difference between amp sims (because there definitely is) but this is one reason why Neural DSP sims sounds so good to other amp sims, because they use quality cab IRs. It makes a big difference! Their sims are also very good in general, regardless of the cab IR. The tone and response you get from their amp sims go beyond just the cab, imo.

Ownhammer’s Mesa Rectifier cab IRs would be be my suggestion if you already have a decent amp sim.


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## Trash Panda (Apr 6, 2022)

AkashicBird said:


> I knew IRs matter but I didn't realize they mattered that much. So basically even a cheap or good free amp with good IRs would sound good ? Even with any IR loader?
> Maybe I'll keep my audio assault Really for some time and start digging more into IR selection and tweaking....


Depends on the use case. If you’re going for a modern metal tone, some good IRs loaded into the free Pulse or STL IR cab loader are fine. Add in the free Lepou amp sims or STL Emissary and you can get a quality metal tone for just the cost of the cab IRs. If you’re going for crunchy, lightly driven overdrive tones, the amp sim does matter a bit more in how it reacts to how hard you’re playing and the way the clean tone starts to break up. 



webs said:


> Recommend places to find the "right" cab IR please?


I have the Ownhammer Heavy Hitters Collection, the Ulrich Wild IR pack and GGD Cabzilla. I usually end up landing in Cabzilla in most scenarios for heavily distorted tones.


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## webs (Apr 6, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> Depends on the use case. If you’re going for a modern metal tone, some good IRs loaded into the free Pulse or STL IR cab loader are fine. Add in the free Lepou amp sims or STL Emissary and you can get a quality metal tone for just the cost of the cab IRs. If you’re going for crunchy, lightly driven overdrive tones, the amp sim does matter a bit more in how it reacts to how hard you’re playing and the way the clean tone starts to break up.
> 
> 
> I have the Ownhammer Heavy Hitters Collection, the Ulrich Wild IR pack and GGD Cabzilla. I usually end up landing in Cabzilla in most scenarios for heavily distorted tones.


Excellent thanks! Will check them out as I'm still searching for satisfying sounds.
I'm hoping these are more gratifying than, say, clicking through all the cab sims in a UAD plug. (That may very well go down as one of my least favorite things to do making ITB music!)


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## MartinH. (Apr 6, 2022)

Line 6 recently released a new plugin series: 


https://shop.line6.com/metallurgy.html



Sounds good to me, but no stereo processing, which always bothers me a lot. 


TSEx50 is one of the first ones I bought and one of its advantages is that it comes with a lot of IRs from different manufacturers, but not so many that it would be a total overkill of choice, like some of the ownhammer packs with over 10k different IRs in there. 






TSE Audio - Software


TSE AUDIO




www.tseaudio.com





I mostly use the x30 engl amp in that plugin. 


Mercurial U530 is also very good and emulates the same preamp. I like the poweramp in it a tiny bit more than the poweramp of the x50 (x30 has no dedicated poweramp)





Mercuriall Audio Software







mercuriall.com





Not a strong preference between this and TSE's pedals and the engl preamp, but the TSE one is easier on the CPU I think and I prefer it's IRs over the cabs in Ampbox. I don't like fiddling around with mic placement. I TSEx50 you can't do that.


iLok is a no-go for me, but if it isn't for you, I would actually join the chorus that points you to neural dsp. I think there's a reason beyond hype that almost everyone agrees they are among the best.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 6, 2022)

+1 for Mercurial. Great amp sims!


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## webs (Apr 6, 2022)

I'm seeing a lot of NeuralDSP votes, and I encourage people considering them to *DEMO them first* to make sure they are right for you.

Personally, for high gain tones, I don't think I've ever had as much fun on a guitar playing (by itself) their Petrucci cranked up with the doubler on... BUT... I also can't seem to get the NeuralDSP tones to sit right in a mix. So.... total fun for noodling, but less useful (for me) in practical sense. For clean, I really really hoped they'd be my go-to also, but again, something about them (or something about me) has me not grabbing them in daily use.

Probably a lot of this is subjective. 
And a lot more of it comes down to what instrument is feeding the signal.
And what player is feeding the instrument.

As one who sometimes grabs a plug based on a lot of mentions here and then regrets it later... hoping to be of service to anyone in the buying phase. Demo first!


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## AkashicBird (Apr 6, 2022)

Yeah I'll demo for sure, but smas a b ginner in guitar in general, I'm not sure I can spotvwhat actually makes a better emulation that qu can buy without regretting it later as my ear develops.

Also I didn't noticed Neural DSP was iLok...which I'd rather avoid.
I'll just test other options, maybe the presets, options and GUI will already play a role in helping me chose.


Trash Panda said:


> Depends on the use case. If you’re going for a modern metal tone, some good IRs loaded into the free Pulse or STL IR cab loader are fine. Add in the free Lepou amp sims or STL Emissary and you can get a quality metal tone for just the cost of the cab IRs. If you’re going for crunchy, lightly driven overdrive tones, the amp sim does matter a bit more in how it reacts to how hard you’re playing and the way the clean tone starts to break up.


Makes sense! So basically if I don't end up buying an amp collection, I'd be better off buying an amp that more clean/crunch oriented. Because yeah from what I've heard there's plenty of good free metal amps.


By the way, people never seem to recommand Amplitude over other plugins, us there a reason?


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## MartinH. (Apr 6, 2022)

AkashicBird said:


> Yeah I'll demo for sure, but smas a b ginner in guitar in general, I'm not sure I can spotvwhat actually makes a better emulation that qu can buy without regretting it later as my ear develops.


On the one hand I'd say it doesn't matter, because I don't think it's realistic to expect you to only buy one plugin and that's it . You'll be collecting those ampsims in no time.

But on the other hand if you say you couldn't even tell what things would be that you'd regret (which I can very much relate to of course, having bought things that I later regret often enough), then you could just stick with the free plugins for the time being and build your ear and mixing skills. There's a ton of good free amps and IRs out there, that will get you very far. You might get a better idea that way what kinds of amps you like and then make better choices once you start buying plugins.

Or buy one now and really get to know it in and out, read the manual and milk it for all the tones it can deliver. That can be very educational and worthwhile as well. 

By the way audio assault's black sun is free right now:









Blacksun | Versatile Amp Simulator


Blacksun is a versatile two channel amp sim, featuring the "mode" control that let's you change the flavor of the amp. Blacksun is FREE until the 1st of December 2021, available for win,mac & linux. VST3,AAX,Stand Alone,AU




audioassault.mx


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## MusiquedeReve (Apr 6, 2022)

As for IR's, I very much recommend Celestion's SpeakerMix Pro -- very realistic









SpeakerMix Pro – Studio Grade Plugin for IRs and DSRs


SpeakerMix Pro - SpeakerMix Pro is a studio-grade plugin from Celestion, bringing ground-breaking guitar & bass speaker tone on your digital audio workstation




www.celestionplus.com


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## AkashicBird (Apr 6, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> But on the other hand if you say you couldn't even tell what things would be that you'd regret (which I can very much relate to of course, having bought things that I later regret often enough), then you could just stick with the free plugins for the time being and build your ear and mixing skills. There's a ton of good free amps and IRs out there,that will get you very far. You might get a better idea that way what kinds of amps you like and then make better choices once you start buying plugins.


Damn. You're right. Maybe I could just milk my Audio assault Reamp, and other free plugings I have (Nalex, Bluecat...) Until I can actually feel like I'm hitting a wall...

On the other hand, I've decided to stop tweaking and spend more time composing, so amp sims with good presets (which I don't feel like AA Reamp has... ) Can be a time saver especially when you're doing all instruments+production...

(Well, I'm the only one that can answer that 😁)


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## antret (Apr 6, 2022)

AkashicBird said:


> Damn. You're right. Maybe I could just milk my Audio assault Reamp, and other free plugings I have (Nalex, Bluecat...) Until I can actually feel like I'm hitting a wall...
> 
> On the other hand, I've decided to stop tweaking and spend more time composing, so amp sims with good presets (which I don't feel like AA Reamp has... ) Can be a time saver especially when you're doing all instruments+production...
> 
> (Well, I'm the only one that can answer that 😁)


You have a lot to sift thru with AA’s re amp studio. I have that as well…. While not always my fave, I can get usable tones out of that for sure. No shortage of ‘flavors’ to boot! I am less concerned about the amp model accuracy and like options and flavors… but that’s me. . 

I will say the cab sims with the AA stuff doesn’t quite do it for me for whatever reason, but I battle with cab sims all the time! There are plenty of choices already built in there, so I would take some time on that one.

When I’m in cab IR trouble I usually pull up ML Sound-labs Mikko cab sim. Again, not always my fave, but the interface ‘speaks’ to me so I enjoy using it. 

As an aside…. I am a Zoom gtr sim fan! No plugins, but I have that little G1 Four jacked in the interface. This little box has some decent cabs (4x12’s and 2x12’s I like) and this got me realizing a few years back that the cab sims often fall down.


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## oepion (Apr 6, 2022)

AkashicBird said:


> Also I didn't noticed Neural DSP was iLok...which I'd rather avoid.


It's the cloud based iLok and you can use them on 3 different computers so it's not that bad, though it does involve the extra step of activating them.

There's been lots of good advice, all that's left to do is for you to try out all the different suggestions and see which one works for you the best.

The one thing I should emphasise about Neural DSP plugins that, to me, makes them stand out is that they come with tons of presets that sound great out of the box - all the IRs, FX and dynamic processing are handled within a single plugin and have been made by well-known artists so you generally don't need to tweak knobs and go look for 3rd party processing effects to add on top. That is a real time saver.

And that's probably the biggest difference with going for more basic amps that do not have much in terms of presets or IRs. You would need to start from scratch, load up your own IRs, tweak all the knobs, add all the FX pedals and EQs, compressors, etc. until you get the perfect sound and that would arguably be the best method to refine your tone. But for lazy people like me who just want to open the plugin, pick a preset and play it does make Neural DSP significantly more appealing.

And if you're after versatility I can't really think of any plugin that comes close in terms of how much you can do with your sound - Henson alone can probably do 90% of what AmpliTube MAX does.

Give them a try despite the iLok, and do try all the other suggestions as well to see what works for you.

PS: I don't own shares in Neural DSP (though it might sound like it!) I was actually very skeptical initially as I tried Nolly and really didn't like it - it just didn't seem to work with my particular guitar. But after trying Plini and the Fortin ones I got converted. I used to spend hours trying to refine the tone to something I liked on other amp sims, but with those I just had to pick a preset and I was 90% there. With the last few and all the modulation possibilities they offer, I can't think what I could possibly be missing (except for that very round and mellow clean jazz tone out of the box).


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## schoolr24 (Apr 6, 2022)

To chime in on IRs, I have been really satisfied with the Bogren Digital packs for heavy music. They definitely fall more into the pre-processed category but I find they sit really well with the bass in a mix. Oh, and Archetype Nolly is definitely worth the hype as well.


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## antret (Apr 6, 2022)

MorphineNoir said:


> As for IR's, I very much recommend Celestion's SpeakerMix Pro -- very realistic
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for this. . Does look like a nice package. EQ is a nice touch i like to have handy. Noticed there is a demo so I better get to it!


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## AkashicBird (Apr 6, 2022)

oepion said:


> The one thing I should emphasise about Neural DSP plugins that, to me, makes them stand out is that they come with tons of presets that sound great out of the box - all the IRs, FX and dynamic processing are handled within a single plugin and have been made by well-known artists so you generally don't need to tweak knobs and go look for 3rd party processing effects to add on top. That is a real time saver.
> 
> 
> 
> And if you're after versatility I can't really think of any plugin that comes close in terms of how much you can do with your sound - Henson alone can probably do 90% of what AmpliTube MAX does.



Handling everything in one plugin is not exclusive to NDSP as far as I know, there are a few other "do-it-all" plugins.
But yeah, the fact that the presets are made by pros in NDSP is pretty attractive.
I barely had time to test Amplitube 5 today, but presets didn't sound bad so far either.

As for Henson being able to 90% or what Amplitube Max does...that's a pretty big claim haha. But maybe true, who knows. Ok, you got me, I'll demo them. Maybe it's so good it'll make me change my mind about having Ilok products


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## Nico5 (Apr 6, 2022)

MorphineNoir said:


> Celestion's SpeakerMix Pro


... no VST3 though, from what I could see on their site?


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## oepion (Apr 6, 2022)

AkashicBird said:


> Handling everything in one plugin is not exclusive to NDSP as far as I know, there are a few other "do-it-all" plugins.
> But yeah, the fact that the presets are made by pros in NDSP is pretty attractive.
> I barely had time to test Amplitube 5 today, but presets didn't sound bad so far either.
> 
> As for Henson being able to 90% or what Amplitube Max does...that's a pretty big claim haha. But maybe true, who knows. Ok, you got me, I'll demo them. Maybe it's so good it'll make me change my mind about having Ilok products


You're right, it's not exclusive to Neural DSP but on the recent plugins I found them to be very comprehensive, as in you get things that are not usually found or bundled in other plugins such as Wahwah, Octavers, Multivoicers etc. Maybe not something that is used very often, but it's nice to have and it really expands the sonic possibilities.

It took me almost 6 hours to go through the Henson presets when I initially demoed it, admittedly some of the presets were so inspiring that I probably spent too much time on them. I do stand by my claim about how versatile it is but you'll be the judge haha (The Petrucci is supposed to be as - if not more - versatile but I am keeping my demo licence for it until just before Black Friday)


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## Nico5 (Apr 6, 2022)

I wonder, if I'm the only one addicted to running dual amp setups? That's a bit of a rabbit hole in itself


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## MusiquedeReve (Apr 7, 2022)

Nico5 said:


> I wonder, if I'm the only one addicted to running dual amp setups? That's a bit of a rabbit hole in itself


I recently went from using only amp sims to a dual setup - well, technically, a triple setup as I record a DI and a dual setup at the same time (always nice to have the DI track as well)


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## Junolab (Apr 7, 2022)

I've tried a huge bunch and have kinda settled myself on Amplitube 5. It sounds really good and is flexible. But a lot properly depends if you like hardrock/metal or clean. I think I'll most likely buy the new Neural DSP Tone King, which sounds fantastic (and I'm a fan of few choices)


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## Nico5 (Apr 7, 2022)

MorphineNoir said:


> technically, a triple setup as I record a DI and a dual setup at the same time (always nice to have the DI track as well)


hehe - I'm with you - except even a little more crazy!  : With my real tube amps I go 5 way stereo:

1 raw guitar track
+ 2 tracks (1 from each amp): pre-amp out (all the modulations and dirt)
+ 2 tracks (1 from each amp): includes everything including time based fx

So I can go back adjust just the time based fx after the fact, rather than re-amping the whole thing


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## MusiquedeReve (Apr 7, 2022)

Nico5 said:


> hehe - I'm with you - except even a little more crazy!  : With my real tube amps I go 5 way stereo:
> 
> 1 raw guitar track
> + 2 tracks (1 from each amp): pre-amp out (all the modulations and dirt)
> ...


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## JamelaBanderson (Apr 7, 2022)

sean8877 said:


> I just picked up this one from Audio Assault, really nice metal/hard rock sound plus an effects rack. I think they still have a deal going on where you enter discount code "welcome" on checkout and you can get it for $5.00:
> 
> https://audio-assault.com/products/dominator


More and more, I'm leaning toward Audio Assault. Amplitube is great for finding that exact sound off a popular song you've heard (and has the price tag to match the official licensing), but AA just has a ton of options for really cheap, or free in the case of Blacksun.


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## tonio_ (Apr 7, 2022)

Honestly, nothing in the amp modelling world beats Neural DSP from what I've personally tried.


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## Learningtomix (Apr 7, 2022)

I often use Neural DSP sims, particularly Abasi, but I also have Plini, Nolly, Cory, Gojira and Henson. I also use Amplitube, which I find is good for auditioning a range of tones quickly. I like and would recommend both. I also have THU, but haven't spent enough time with it. 

If using a real guitar, the quality of signal from the guitar into the sim via the interface/di box is important. I once did some good takes using a guitar with a poorly wired pickup, and got momentary audio dropouts that ruined them. I think it's also worth investing in good quality cables.


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## oepion (Apr 7, 2022)

Learningtomix said:


> If using a real guitar, the quality of signal from the guitar into the sim via the interface/di box is important. I once did some good takes using a guitar with a poorly wired pickup, and got momentary audio dropouts that ruined them. I think it's also worth investing in good quality cables.


+1

Also the quality of the pickups themselves, although that's a much harder/expensive thing to change.

Something else important to note is that some of the plugins are more sensitive to the gain on the interface than others. For example, I found that the tone did not change greatly when changing the gain using Positive Grid plugins - I could leave the gain turned all the way down and I'd still get the same response as if I increased it halfway. However, the difference was very noticeable with the Neural DSP ones. Turning the gain all the way down on one of their hi gain presets would make it sound like a crunch/overdrive, and it's only increasing it up to the point just before it starts clipping that I get the full hi gain distortion tone out of the same preset.

Even within the Neural DSP suite, each individual plugin is different so the gain on my interface has to be changed all the time to not clip, but also not send a weak signal.


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## MartinH. (Apr 7, 2022)

oepion said:


> Even within the Neural DSP suite, each individual plugin is different so the gain on my interface has to be changed all the time to not clip, but also not send a weak signal.



If you are playing/recording through a DAW I wouldn't recommend changing the interface gain. It should be set to the sweetspot where you get the best signal to noise ratio on your specific interface and the signal doesn't clip. Then if one plugin needs more or less gain than another, you adjust the input gain dial on that plugin, and if it doesn't have one you just add a simple volume adjustment plugin in the chain before the ampsim. That way the volume of your recorded DI signal always is consistent and you can save and recall fx chain presets for different ampsims that already have the gain dialed in right without you needing to mess around with the interface every time.


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## KEM (Apr 7, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> The most important part of your guitar chain is the cab (if playing live) or the cab IR if working ITB.
> 
> Once you have the right cab IR, the differences you’ll hear from different amp sims will range somewhere between minor to cork-sniffing.



GetGoodDrums cabs are the only ones I use, I use the Cali cabs for rhythm tones and the Zilla cabs for clean tones


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## oepion (Apr 7, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> If you are playing/recording through a DAW I wouldn't recommend changing the interface gain. It should be set to the sweetspot where you get the best signal to noise ratio on your specific interface and the signal doesn't clip. Then if one plugin needs more or less gain than another, you adjust the input gain dial on that plugin, and if it doesn't have one you just add a simple volume adjustment plugin in the chain before the ampsim. That way the volume of your recorded DI signal always is consistent and you can save and recall fx chain presets for different ampsims that already have the gain dialed in right without you needing to mess around with the interface every time.


Thanks for the really useful tip! That does sound like a much better way to do it. I've only been playing/jamming lately so I was using the standalone versions outside the DAW, but that's a great tip for when inside the DAW and recording stuff.


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## KEM (Apr 8, 2022)

Alright, here’s my signal chain on this track:

Horizon Devices Precision Drive -> Neural DSP Fortin Nameless -> GGD Studio Cabs Zilla

I should mention that this is an older tone and I had to record my guitars with a line signal instead of hi-z, so my recordings weren’t even as good as they had the potential to be


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## oepion (Apr 8, 2022)

KEM said:


> Alright, here’s my signal chain on this track:
> 
> Horizon Devices Precision Drive -> Neural DSP Fortin Nameless -> GGD Studio Cabs Zilla
> 
> I should mention that this is an older tone and I had to record my guitars with a line signal instead of hi-z, so my recordings weren’t even as good as they had the potential to be



I remember a while back I was not very happy with the muddiness of my low end with my EMG 808 on Fortin Nameless and I was thinking of swapping them for the Fluence but you suggested to me using passive pickups such as the Lundgren M8 ones would sound much better. I think that's the one I see on your Schecter?

It's definitely a much better tone than what I can get using Nameless. I do wonder whether the Zilla IRs also make a massive difference, would you say you didn't like the stock IRs on Nameless?


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## odod (Apr 8, 2022)

i am strongly suggest you to try Scuffham S Gear 2, and Nolly by Neural DSP .. both are really good! and also buy or download some FREE IRs  enjoy


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## DSmolken (Apr 8, 2022)

And here I am, totally happy with the free Shattered Glass Audio Ace and AXP Flextron for slightly dirty tones in pop and hip-hop mixes.

Am I wrong? Would something that's not free, or maybe even free but newer than 2014, be a meaningful upgrade?


----------



## KEM (Apr 8, 2022)

oepion said:


> I remember a while back I was not very happy with the muddiness of my low end with my EMG 808 on Fortin Nameless and I was thinking of swapping them for the Fluence but you suggested to me using passive pickups such as the Lundgren M8 ones would sound much better. I think that's the one I see on your Schecter?
> 
> It's definitely a much better tone than what I can get using Nameless. I do wonder whether the Zilla IRs also make a massive difference, would you say you didn't like the stock IRs on Nameless?



That is a Lundgren M8 and it is AMAZING!!! The Fluence pickups are definitely the best active pickups on the market but passive pickups are just better in pretty much every way, the Lundgren’s are great and so are Bare Knuckle’s, they just put out a signature pickup with Nolly called the Polymath and it sounds amazing, I’m getting a set for my Solar that you see in that video

I do think the GGD cabs are better than the stock ones on the Fortin Nameless, the new Cali cabs they put out are especially great for rhythm tones and downtuned stuff and I’m using those for that application now, the Zilla cabs excel at cleans and leads so that’s where I use those now instead, Neural actually has Nolly shoot their cab IRs now since he’s pretty much the best in the world at it and the GGD cabs are pretty much his finest captures so you can’t go wrong with them

But I’ll say that the biggest difference maker in my tone is the Precision Drive, it quite literally sounds better than everything else I’ve tried, no overdrive pedal on the Neural DSP plugins are as good, the Dr. Drive (free plugin emulation of the Precision Drive) is not as good, not even other physical overdrive pedals I’ve tried sound anywhere near as good!!


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## oepion (Apr 8, 2022)

DSmolken said:


> Am I wrong? Would something that's not free, or maybe even free but newer than 2014, be a meaningful upgrade?


I just made a post in the deals section about a free limited edition of Positive Grid Bias FX 2 - it might be worth you have a look and see if it is a meaningful upgrade for you. I am not familiar with the ones you are using, and I have the Pro edition of FX 2 which has tons more amps pedals etc. so it's hard to compare, but at least you'll get an idea of what it can do sound quality-wise and whether it's worth investing in something newer (Positive Grid used to be considered some of the best amp sims developers out there until 2018/2019 when a lot of their users migrated to Neural DSP - that includes me)

Link to the post: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/positive-grid-bias-fx-2-le-free.123533/

@KEM thanks for all the feedback, it looks like my "to buy" list keeps getting longer and longer!


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## rollasoc (Apr 8, 2022)

oepion said:


> (Positive Grid used to be considered some of the best amp sims developers out there until 2018/2019 when a lot of their users migrated to Neural DSP - that includes me)


I like the Positive grid effects, more so than their amp modelling, but I have gotten some great tones out of Bias FX 2. 

My main issue, is occasionally, I'll load a song up and get no guitars, then I have to go into every instance of their product in the song and re-log in. Tedious to the point of not wanting to use it again. Although, in future, I will just render in place the track (and put a note as to the patch used) and then remove the plugin.

I'm mostly using S-gear or Amphub for amps nowadays.


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## MusiquedeReve (Apr 8, 2022)

50% off sale at NeuralDSP (their new Tone King not included though)






Home







neuraldsp.com


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## Trash Panda (Apr 8, 2022)

oepion said:


> I remember a while back I was not very happy with the muddiness of my low end with my EMG 808 on Fortin Nameless and I was thinking of swapping them for the Fluence but you suggested to me using passive pickups such as the Lundgren M8 ones would sound much better. I think that's the one I see on your Schecter?
> 
> It's definitely a much better tone than what I can get using Nameless. I do wonder whether the Zilla IRs also make a massive difference, would you say you didn't like the stock IRs on Nameless?


Have you tried the following yet? I’d recommend this before chasing more gear because you’ll still have mud problems even with new pickups otherwise. 

Run a high pass EQ at the start of your signal chain. Somewhere between 80-120 Hz should be fine. 

Run an overdrive or distortion pedal in front of your amp. Go for low drive, high volume, tone to taste. A classic usage is a tube screamer at 0 drive, 10 volume, tone to taste. 

Set your amp EQ at noon for all knobs and dial them in once the gain is dialed in. Lower the gain on your amp down to 0 and slowly bring it up while chugging (you shouldn’t need to go higher than around 3-4 on a high gain amp). Basically keep it low enough that you get enough bite when doing a hard palm mute/chugging and don’t take it any higher.


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## soulofsound (Apr 8, 2022)

My experience is you cannot recommend one plugin over another. It depends on the guitar and the preamp which plugins work well. I have a guitar with EMG pickups that works wonders with Softube Amp Room, whereas most of my other guitars do not. Almost every guitar i have does work well with Guitar Rig and Amplitube, which is probably why these plugins are most mainstream. Helix and BiasFX are wonderful, too. Like another poster above i do not like the BIAS Amp plugin for some reason. Maybe my hopes were too high idk. Helix and BiasFX also lack presets and going inside the marketplace is a cumbersome experience in both plugins, i find. Then you have smaller plugins like VStomp which is quite good, or some free ones mentioned here already.


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## Trash Panda (Apr 8, 2022)

DSmolken said:


> And here I am, totally happy with the free Shattered Glass Audio Ace and AXP Flextron for slightly dirty tones in pop and hip-hop mixes.
> 
> Am I wrong? Would something that's not free, or maybe even free but newer than 2014, be a meaningful upgrade?


If you and your clients are happy, why mess with what works?


----------



## oepion (Apr 8, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> Have you tried the following yet? I’d recommend this before chasing more gear because you’ll still have mud problems even with new pickups otherwise.


Thanks a lot for the tips. I did not try to do all this before to see if it improves anything so I shall give it a go before investing in more gear, you may have saved me a couple hundred bucks!


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## cel4145 (Apr 8, 2022)

With the Neural DSP 50% sale, looks like some of you guys are going to need to try one of their plugins


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## DSmolken (Apr 8, 2022)

oepion said:


> I just made a post in the deals section about a free limited edition of Positive Grid Bias FX 2 - it might be worth you have a look and see if it is a meaningful upgrade for you.


Thanks! Will check that out, and also the Neural DSP stuff, since it has a free trial. Better than Kafka!

Sure it might not be an improvement and just use up more CPU to end up with the same sound, but I can tear myself away from editing samples for a few hours to find out, heh.


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## MartinH. (Apr 8, 2022)

soulofsound said:


> My experience is you cannot recommend one plugin over another. It depends on the guitar and the preamp which plugins work well. I have a guitar with EMG pickups that works wonders with Softube Amp Room, whereas most of my other guitars do not.


The DI signal is indeed extremely important, but instead of changing guitar or ampsim when you don't like the sound, I'd first try adding an EQ before the ampsim and experiment to see if you can find a setting that makes the guitar work with that sim. It's part of what an overdrive pedal does, they shape the frequency spectrum by quite a lot and compress the signal a little. If your EMG doesn't work where a passive pickup works, you could try adding a transient shaper to boost the attack of the notes, and an EQ to get it closer to the frequency response of your other guitars.
Experiment!


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## KEM (Apr 8, 2022)

MorphineNoir said:


> 50% off sale at NeuralDSP (their new Tone King not included though)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To whoever reads this: it would be a very unwise decision not to buy a Neural DSP plugin at half off, try out one of their demos and you’ll be making a purchase within 30 minutes


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## KEM (Apr 8, 2022)

Well would you look at that… GGD is also having a sale, that means you could get the Neural DSP Fortin Nameless and the GGD Studio Cabs Cali for less than $100, that’s a no brainer if you ask me!!









Amazing & Incredibly Diverse Drum Sample Libraries - GetGood Drums


Welcome to GetGood Drums, home of amazing, high-quality, crafted drum samples that sound great in any context.




www.getgooddrums.com


----------



## webs (Apr 8, 2022)

KEM said:


> Well would you look at that… GGD is also having a sale, that means you could get the Neural DSP Fortin Nameless and the GGD Studio Cabs Cali for less than $100, that’s a no brainer if you ask me!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sale doesn't appear to be on the cab. Just the drums.


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## MusiquedeReve (Apr 8, 2022)

webs said:


> Sale doesn't appear to be on the cab. Just the drums.


Naturally, I bought Invasion last week ughhhhhh

I should know better than to buy any plugins or VSTs outside of Black Friday as that is really the only time we know things will be on sale


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## webs (Apr 8, 2022)

MorphineNoir said:


> Naturally, I bought Invasion last week ughhhhhh
> 
> I should know better than to buy any plugins or VSTs outside of Black Friday as that is really the only time we know things will be on sale


shoooooooooot. maybe send them an email? sometimes good things happen!


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## MusiquedeReve (Apr 8, 2022)

webs said:


> shoooooooooot. maybe send them an email? sometimes good things happen!


I just did - I'll report back when they respond


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## MusiquedeReve (Apr 8, 2022)

MorphineNoir said:


> I just did - I'll report back when they respond



I heard from GGD customer service - they stated they cannot apply the discount but will give me a free MIDI pack - I appreciate that and happy with their service

PS - if anyone is a wizard at using GGD in Logic I'd appreciate it if you could help me figure out how to route so that I can have the Logic Drummer playing a GGD kit

Thank you and be well


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## KEM (Apr 8, 2022)

webs said:


> Sale doesn't appear to be on the cab. Just the drums.



It is, it’s on the email I got, they’re $50 regularly


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## webs (Apr 9, 2022)

KEM said:


> It is, it’s on the email I got, they’re $50 regularly


Cool thanks. I wonder why they didn't show it on the site as on sale, like the rest of their products...


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## KEM (Apr 9, 2022)

webs said:


> Cool thanks. I wonder why they didn't show it on the site as on sale, like the rest of their products...



No idea either, it shows the Zilla cabs are on sale but not the Cali cabs, I bought them on intro price for $40 so they’re cheaper now than when I bought them


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## webs (Apr 9, 2022)

To give credit where credit is due, I demo'ed the Fortin and the Nolly... two models that I was under the impression were strictly for "heavy" sounds, and nicely surprised that they actually both have nice wide ranges of tone, and both seem very useable in a "sit in the mix" way. I find I never use Plini which I've owned for a couple years, as other plugs I have serve those sounds more easily for me, but these seem promising.


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## Trash Panda (Apr 9, 2022)

The NTS (Randall Satan) doesn’t get enough love. 🤘🏻


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## DSmolken (Apr 9, 2022)

KEM said:


> To whoever reads this: it would be a very unwise decision not to buy a Neural DSP plugin at half off, try out one of their demos and you’ll be making a purchase within 30 minutes


Resisting so far, but the Parallax and Cory Wong do both sound quite nice for clean poppy sounds.

Will probably skip the Parallax, though, beacuse if I'm not really going to use the distortion then I'd be just using to compress the lows, and, well, any multiband compressor can do that. I've been thinking I should get Brainworx Portaflex on sale at some point. It's mo' Motown. But is that the best option for the classic Jamerson sound?

The Bias FX freebie is nice with the FX turned off and just using it as an amp (or two), and the amps that come with the LE version are more than enough for me for guitar purposes, but the GUI's behaving weird on my system. Will see if I can fix that, and if the Cory Wong ends up sounding better.


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## KEM (Apr 9, 2022)

DSmolken said:


> Resisting so far, but the Parallax and Cory Wong do both sound quite nice for clean poppy sounds.
> 
> Will probably skip the Parallax, though, beacuse if I'm not really going to use the distortion then I'd be just using to compress the lows, and, well, any multiband compressor can do that. I've been thinking I should get Brainworx Portaflex on sale at some point. It's mo' Motown. But is that the best option for the classic Jamerson sound?
> 
> The Bias FX freebie is nice with the FX turned off and just using it as an amp (or two), and the amps that come with the LE version are more than enough for me for guitar purposes, but the GUI's behaving weird on my system. Will see if I can fix that, and if the Cory Wong ends up sounding better.



Take it from me, Bias FX is absolute garbage, I deleted it years ago after I bought my first Neural DSP plugin, it’s a world of a difference


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## Nico5 (Apr 9, 2022)

I quite like some of the (NeuralDSP) stuff, too - ended up buying Cory Wong when it went version 2.0 and am just trying the demo version of Petrucci during their current sale. As fully integrated single amplifier guitar signal chain, I found lots of sonically shining moments with the presets, combined with a pleasant user interface and plenty of midi remote control potential. But the ease of use comes at a price of a fixed signal chain. And it feels like I'm buying the same (or very similar) thing over and over again (most of the fx chain).

But for my more twisted euro-rack-but-guitar kind of brain, there's NI's Guitar Rig and maybe even more so Melda's MXXX, where you can do very deep in amp sim design, cab design and fx design - if one is into the Meldaverse (which I am, but it's not everyone's cup of tea). Both make dual amp setups pretty easy.

And BlueCat Audio's Axiom goes arguably a bit further by adding the ability to integrate 3rd party plugins into their rack, so mixing and matching is arguably the easiest in their eco-system. It's also currently on sale: 






Blue Cat's Axiom - Guitar & Bass Amp Simulation With Effects (VST, AU, AAX, VST3, Standalone)







www.bluecataudio.com





---
All that being said, I can do dual amping and very flexible fx chain with any better DAW (I happen to use Cubase and can use group and FX channels for pretty flexible routing).

---



KEM said:


> Take it from me, Bias FX is absolute garbage, I deleted it years ago after I bought my first Neural DSP plugin, it’s a world of a difference


That's pretty heavy shade without any explanatory detail. Assuming you're not just shilling, I think it would be quite a bit more helpful, if you elaborated on your criteria (workflow, sonic ambition, musical target genres, price, compatibility, whatever ...). -- Because some of us may have different sonic and workflow priorities and ambitions than others. Context matters!


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## oepion (Apr 9, 2022)

Nico5 said:


> But the ease of use comes at a price of a fixed signal chain. And it feels like I'm buying the same (or very similar) thing over and over again (most of the fx chain).


You can possibly change the signal chain as you wish by calling multiple instances of the plugin, or even mixing them up. For example you can deactivate the cabs and pedals of a plugin, then load another plugin with just the cab and its IR after it, then load a 3rd with just the FX so the FX would be applied to the output of the cab. It's a bit cumbersome but it is possible. This way you can also mix the FX, amps or cabs from different plugins, for example use one of the Nolly amp with the Wahwah from Cory Wong and the Multivoicier from Henson.


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## Nico5 (Apr 9, 2022)

oepion said:


> You can possibly change the signal chain as you wish by calling multiple instances of the plugin, or even mixing them up. For example you can deactivate the cabs and pedals of a plugin, then load another plugin with just the cab and its IR after it, then load a 3rd with just the FX so the FX would be applied to the output of the cab. It's a bit cumbersome but it is possible. This way you can also mix the FX, amps or cabs from different plugins, for example use one of the Nolly amp with the Wahwah from Cory Wong and the Multivoicier from Henson.


I know, and have done that 🤓, but that workflow is a lot messier than with some of the competing plugins


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## cqd (Apr 9, 2022)

Another one that is overlooked is electrum by United plugins..it's pretty cool too..
What someone said above about each amp sim being dependent on the guitar/pickups is true too..


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## Trash Panda (Apr 9, 2022)

Nico5 said:


> That's pretty heavy shade without any explanatory detail. Assuming you're not just shilling, I think it would be quite a bit more helpful, if you elaborated on your criteria (workflow, sonic ambition, musical target genres, price, compatibility, whatever ...). -- Because some of us may have different sonic and workflow priorities and ambitions than others. Context matters!


Overall, Bias FX is pretty good. My main issues with it are:
1) the amps oftentimes don’t sound like the amps they’re supposedly modeled after
2) their cab IRs and cab sims don’t sound very good. 
3) even if you mitigate #2 with 3rd party cab IRs, the high gain amps tend to sound overly fizzy at gain levels that they really shouldn’t

For an example of #3, I can take the Bias FX version of the Diezel VH4, drive it a fair bit and it gets fizzy and meh sounding pretty quick. 

With the PA version of the VH4 with the same chain in front of the amp sim and the same cab IRs, I can crank the gain to obscene levels and still get that creamy, delectable high gain tone I’m expecting. 

Bias FX amps also don’t seem to do as well with picking dynamics when you’re doing doing lower gain overdrive and trying to ride the line where the breakup starts to come in.


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## cel4145 (Apr 9, 2022)

Well, I broke down and bought the Fortin Cali Suite to go along with the Gojira, Soldano, and Darkglass that I already have. 50€, why not? 

Now I just need the Tone King


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## KEM (Apr 9, 2022)

Nico5 said:


> That's pretty heavy shade without any explanatory detail. Assuming you're not just shilling, I think it would be quite a bit more helpful, if you elaborated on your criteria (workflow, sonic ambition, musical target genres, price, compatibility, whatever ...). -- Because some of us may have different sonic and workflow priorities and ambitions than others. Context matters!



My experiences with Bias FX were only bad, the noise gates didn’t work at all, the amps sounded thinner than paper, the cabs were dull, none of the overdrive pedals hit the amps the way a real overdrive would. Seriously, Bias FX is really bad, I have an old Pod X3 that sounds better and that says a lot


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## KEM (Apr 9, 2022)

I’ve used the Plugin Alliance amps, UAD amps, Bias FX, Line 6 Pod, etc. and Neural DSP is just better than all of them. If you don’t believe me, look no further than Misha Mansoor or Buster Odeholm


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## DSmolken (Apr 10, 2022)

DSmolken said:


> The Bias FX freebie is nice with the FX turned off and just using it as an amp (or two), and the amps that come with the LE version are more than enough for me for guitar purposes, but the GUI's behaving weird on my system. Will see if I can fix that, and if the Cory Wong ends up sounding better.


Small update on this: it's eating the bottom and right parts of the plugin when Windows GUI scaling is set to 125%, behaves OK at 100%. Fixable by selecting the "scale editor dimensions" button in FL Studio's plugin wrapper settings.

So that makes it, eh, worth keeping for the price of free. We'll see how much use it gets and if it gets kept long term. Comparing one the clean presets to the Cory Wong and the EXE Consulting V1940 (a freebie modeling a 1940 German amp, not sure how accurate but pretty cool conceptually), it does seem pretty thin and not nearly as clean.


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## oepion (Apr 10, 2022)

KEM said:


>



My brain is having trouble processing the way he plays the guitar. I understand he's left handed, but the order of the strings is inverted?! It's so confusing, I think I need to reboot myself, I'll be back shortly.


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## soulofsound (Apr 10, 2022)

KEM said:


> Take it from me, Bias FX is absolute garbage, I deleted it years ago after I bought my first Neural DSP plugin, it’s a world of a difference


Binary qualifications like good or bad are meaningless in a discussion about guitar sounds. BiasFX lacks presence and agression which is probably what you're after. For pop i think it can be quite useful with its wide range of effects.


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## dunamisstudio (Apr 10, 2022)

Picked up Archetype Petrucci and Parallax from the DSP sale.


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## KEM (Apr 10, 2022)

dunamisstudio said:


> Picked up Archetype Petrucci and Parallax from the DSP sale.



I’ve been thinking about buying the Petrucci just for the transpose feature, they need to add that to all of their plugins


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## DSmolken (Apr 10, 2022)

I did some testing of Bias FX, Tone King, Cory Wong, and on the free side V1940, AXP Flextron and SGA Ace for clean pop stuff and also some extended techniques like picks stabs and playing behind the bridge (using Snowkiss and Glockenskull), because all the highs in those can get shrill. The Bias FX and Flextron are definitely brighter at default settings than the others so they don't do well with those. Ace does basically only one sound (has no EQ and doesn't want to get completely clean) but does it well, Tone King does the same sound Ace does and also more distorted variants, and the V1940 is nice and warm - pretty close to Cory Wong territory though not quite as smooth.

Will I buy the Cory Wong, haven't decided yet, but it does have two big positives for me - the compressor effect one, and the DI console as an alternative to heads is very useful for getting the super-clean but not brittle Nile Rodgers sound.

Will I delete the Bias FX, also haven't decided.

Had some fun testing, in any case.


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## Henu (Apr 10, 2022)

I'm with KEM here- I've been using amp sims since Guitar Rig 1 on a regular basis and _nothing_ comes even close to Neural.


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## KEM (Apr 10, 2022)

Henu said:


> I'm with KEM here- I've been using amp sims since Guitar Rig 1 on a regular basis and _nothing_ comes even close to Neural.



See look at that, even Henu agrees with me and he usually rips my opinions to shreds, that’s how you know Neural is legit


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## Learningtomix (Apr 10, 2022)

Yes, Neural DSP plugins are very good. I'm wary of demoing Petrucci and Toneking at the moment as i'd likely use them on a track and then have to buy them!


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## cqd (Apr 10, 2022)

Listening to a few of the neural ones there the only one I'd really be interested in getting (tone king) ain't on sale..


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## shropshirelad (Apr 10, 2022)

I just picked up Darkglass Ultra and it's not compatible with Cubase 12 running natively on Mac M1 Max and gets shunted to the blocklist. Disappointing.


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## Nico5 (Apr 10, 2022)

oepion said:


> I understand he's left handed, but the order of the strings is inverted?!


There is rather illustrious and guitar historically significant precedent:


----------



## soulofsound (Apr 10, 2022)

KEM said:


> See look at that, even Henu agrees with me and he usually rips my opinions to shreds, that’s how you know Neural is legit


For high-gain sounds Neural rocks. I think Helix has some serious good high-gain sounds, too. And Guitar Rig 6 seems underestimated in that area often, too. Then the Mesa models from Amplitube are very decent. And they have a high-gain fender (3rd preset in Fender I i think) that is seriously heavy.


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## oepion (Apr 10, 2022)

Nico5 said:


> There is rather illustrious and guitar historically significant precedent:



It took about 24h for my brain to get over the first one, and now this? Especially since I've never realised that's how he played until now! I think I'll need a whole week to recover this time!


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## oepion (Apr 10, 2022)

DSmolken said:


> Will I buy the Cory Wong, haven't decided yet, but it does have two big positives for me - the compressor effect one, and the DI console as an alternative to heads is very useful for getting the super-clean but not brittle Nile Rodgers sound.


Fun fact: before the Cory Wong plugin came out, Cory himself was promoting UAD and showing how to get his sound using the UAD plugins. In the video below he explains he didn't even need an amp, but if he had to add one he'd pick the Ampeg SVT-VR as he prefers using bass amps to get his funk tone without the amp breaking up:


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## AudioLoco (Apr 11, 2022)

As a fan of traditional miced valve amps as the best solution for guitar, I don't mind Amplitube. 
The tone is certainly there, the feel and the 3D feeling not so much, but it is very versatile.
Curious to try some of the plugins mentioned here even though the style and taste of what I heard in most demos is really far away from what I personally enjoy. (I enjoy slightly overdriven, crunchy but not distorted tone to be the base, the starting point of my pedal color palette)

Not a plugin but I really recommend this small and cheap wonder for the price of a plugin :








Blackstar FLY 3 Bluetooth Mini Amp BK


Electric Guitar Combo with Bluetooth Power: 3 Watts, 3" Speaker, 2 Channels, Integrated delay, Aux In, Patented ISF regulation, Headphone and recording output with speaker simulation, Power supply with battery or mains adapter (not included,...




www.thomann.de





I bought it when Covid lockdown started just for home use, but I have to say, even if digital, it is really reactive, it has a GREAT tone and with an SM57 in front and air passing through mic and grill, it does a much better job then any plugin I tried. (And the battery lasts forever more or less)
It is not very versatile though, but nor is my BluesDeluxe or my AC30.


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## DSmolken (Apr 12, 2022)

Am I crazy, or are the Classic Thirty and V1940 here pretty damn good for nice clean and slightly overdriven sounds? Somebody try them and tell me if there's something wrong with my ears...



Guitar Amp Simulators | EXE Consulting



Turn off the cab, use an external IR loader, leave the FX off, and they really seem very nice, warm and musical for either being completely clean or with a little dirt on harder notes.


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## KEM (Apr 12, 2022)

I would like to point out though that my favorite guitar solo of all time is Harmony Engine, Autotune, and Guitar Rig…


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## Soundbed (Apr 12, 2022)

Rhino for guitar
Mammoth for bass









Rhino - Guitar Amp VST AAX AU


‌




auroradsp.com


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## AkashicBird (Apr 17, 2022)

I'm not very good but I tried to match different amps sims : some Marshall, some Orange, some Mesa, and some metal oriented ones.
I used Amplitube, Kuassa, Audio Assault Reamp, and Bluecat Axiom (also Bias FX bit I found it sounded different compared to every else so si have up on it).
I didn't use Ilok libraries in the end but that's personal.
Also I decided to go for traditional amp sims, not custom ones like NDSP.

Anyways, I might be crazy, but overall I think they can all achieve the same results (or close enough) with not much tweaking. The only one that required more was Audio assault, where you usually have to to put the presence and depth knobs around 1-2, and where gain is usually acting stronger than others.
Amplitube always seemed to have more low end but I'm not sure it's a good thing.

Basically, what I conclude is that most amps here are as good as their competitor. 
I used the same IR for my tests and think that's only fair.
Which led le to think about IR and browse for some more advanced IR loader than NadIR.
I stumbled upon Torpedo wall of sound and it's fantastic, I might actually just spend my money on their sale and learn how to tweak my amp settings. Myself instead of relying on presets


----------



## Junolab (Apr 17, 2022)

AkashicBird said:


> I used Amplitube, Kuassa, Audio Assault Reamp, and Bluecat Axiom (also Bias FX bit I found it sounded different compared to every else so si have up on it).
> I didn't use Ilok libraries in the end but that's personal.
> Also I decided to go for traditional amp sims, not custom ones like NDSP.
> 
> ...


If I brought my own speaker components to an amp, most amps would also sound the same as well.

Not sure a "test" makes sense if the goal is to figure out what a plugin can archive of you bring your own content. For some it works but other sims a static IR would be too... well static. I've messed a lot with IRs but I've grown content with AT5 and the Fender amps as well as the new NDSP Tone King. But there's surely a lot of good cheap stuff out there which works well with somw good cab IRs


----------



## KEM (Apr 17, 2022)

If good cab IRs are what you want look no further than the GetGood Drums cab packs, Cali for high gain and Zilla for cleans


----------



## Draco Solis (Apr 17, 2022)

Don't have the most experience with different gear, but myself use the Shreddage line of guitars and have Peavey ReValver 4 for my amps. Haven't been disappointed with them so far!
ReValver 4 has a good number of amps that can do pretty much anything from cleans to heavy distortion, and for varying styles and genres too!


----------



## MartinH. (Apr 17, 2022)

Yesterday I tried the demo of Audio Assault's Sigma and was very positively surprised:








Sigma


https://yorkshireaudio.com/demos/SigmaDemoMac.pkg https://yorkshireaudio.com/demos/SigmaDemoWin.exe https://yorkshireaudio.com/demos/SigmaDemoLinux.zip Sigma Modern High Gain Amp Simulator SI6MA EX is a 3 Channel Amp Sim based on a hybrid of modern and classic vintage amps that gives a very...




audioassault.mx





I hope this isn't just new-toy-placebo, but atm I'm liking it more than all of their other amps I tried so far.


----------



## MartinH. (Apr 18, 2022)

Anyone ever heard of this one? I haven't, which surprised me: 









ToneLib Metal | Essential amp sims and guitar gear for heaviest genres


Ultimate guitar gear pack which includes simulation of the most iconic guitar amps alongside with top-tier guitar pedals and effects, 300+ high-end IRs and more.




tonelib.net


----------



## Mike Stone (Apr 18, 2022)

What about Kazrog Ampcraft 1992? It seems like a good option, and has gotten some very positive reviews so far.


----------



## soulofsound (Apr 18, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> Anyone ever heard of this one? I haven't, which surprised me:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, it's one of the better cheap libraries. Like most guitar sim plugins i think it has too much high-end, so i am experimenting combining with other cab sim plugins.


----------



## visiblenoise (Apr 23, 2022)

Seems like people are sleeping on MCabinet (which is currently on sale)? I just demoed it and was impressed. I hate futzing flipping back and forth between different IRs, so having something that felt like I could meaningfully tweak and also sounded great was great.


----------



## Hendrixon (Apr 23, 2022)

Instead of wasting money on VST amps that you will certainly add more to later, or outright replace, buy an older Axe FX, will save you money in the long run, sound better, and if you don't like it?
Sell it for what you bought it <-- beat that plugin amps


----------



## KEM (Apr 23, 2022)

Hendrixon said:


> Instead of wasting money on VST amps that you will certainly add more to later, or outright replace, buy an older Axe FX, will save you money in the long run, sound better, and if you don't like it?
> Sell it for what you bought it <-- beat that plugin amps



That’s still significantly more expensive than all Neural DSP plugins combined. Does it sound better? Arguably yes, but a lot of people probably can’t justify the price difference, I would love an Axe FX 3 but I definitely can’t afford that right now, and the Neural stuff is more convenient anyways


----------



## Hendrixon (Apr 23, 2022)

KEM said:


> That’s still significantly more expensive than all Neural DSP plugins combined. Does it sound better? Arguably yes, but a lot of people probably can’t justify the price difference, I would love an Axe FX 3 but I definitely can’t afford that right now, and the Neural stuff is more convenient anyways


That's why I said "older Axe FX".


----------



## KEM (Apr 23, 2022)

Hendrixon said:


> That's why I said "older Axe FX".



I know, and those are still over $1k


----------



## Mike Fox (Apr 23, 2022)

Here’s a track i did using only the Neural DSP Omega plugin (2 instances hard panned L/R). 

I don’t think the tone is too shabby considering no mastering/processing was done, and it’s nothing more than my guitar straight into the interface.


----------



## KEM (Apr 23, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> Here’s a track i did using only the Neural DSP Omega plugin (2 instances hard panned L/R).
> 
> I don’t think the tone is too shabby considering no mastering/processing was done, and it’s nothing more than my guitar straight into the interface.




Have you ever had any clipping with high gain pickups on the signal itself? My interface has enough headroom and I’m not clipping it but I still get pops and clicks on my DI, it must be an issue with my guitars internals and when researching it sounds like it’s a common enough issue


----------



## Mike Fox (Apr 23, 2022)

KEM said:


> Have you ever had any clipping with high gain pickups on the signal itself? My interface has enough headroom and I’m not clipping it but I still get pops and clicks on my DI, it must be an issue with my guitars internals and when researching it sounds like it’s a common enough issue


Nah, that’s never been an issue, but i do have to keep my input dialed down pretty low on the interface.


----------



## KEM (Apr 23, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> Nah, that’s never been an issue, but i do have to keep my input dialed down pretty low on the interface.



Yeah me too, but I have enough headroom and I’m not clipping the interface at all, when doing research I found that it could be a number of issues like the pickups being too close to the strings, low quality internal components, etc. so I have no idea what’s causing it


----------



## Mike Fox (Apr 23, 2022)

KEM said:


> Yeah me too, but I have enough headroom and I’m not clipping the interface at all, when doing research I found that it could be a number of issues like the pickups being too close to the strings, low quality internal components, etc. so I have no idea what’s causing it


Hm…

Does it happen when you’re plugged into your amp? That would be an easy way to rule out if it’s something with the guitar.


----------



## KEM (Apr 23, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> Hm…
> 
> Does it happen when you’re plugged into your amp? That would be an easy way to rule out if it’s something with the guitar.



Never owned an amp  but I do have a Precision Drive and it doesn’t pop/click when I have it active


----------



## Mike Fox (Apr 23, 2022)

KEM said:


> Never owned an amp  but I do have a Precision Drive and it doesn’t pop/click when I have it active


Do you have another guitar to try? 

Also, have you tried higher buffer settings?

If it doesn’t pop and click with your Precision Drive, then i don’t think it would be your guitar.


----------



## KEM (Apr 23, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> Do you have another guitar to try?
> 
> Also, have you tried higher buffer settings?
> 
> If it doesn’t pop and click with your Precision Drive, then i don’t think it would be your guitar.



Yeah I have 4 guitars, the only one that doesn’t do it is the one that has low output stock pickups that I haven’t changed yet, perhaps I really do need to just get a DI box…


----------



## Mike Fox (Apr 23, 2022)

KEM said:


> Yeah I have 4 guitars, the only one that doesn’t do it is the one that has low output stock pickups that I haven’t changed yet, perhaps I really do need to just get a DI box…


Yeah, that doesn’t sound like a guitar issue then, especially if all of them (except one) are creating pops/clicks.

I’d either try a different interface, or look deep into your DAW settings. 

Btw, how do you like your 8 string? I’m seriously considering getting this.









Schecter Hellraiser Hybrid C-8 - Trans Black Burst


8-string Solidbody Electric Guitar with Quilt Maple Top, Mahogany Body, Maple Neck, Ebony Fingerboard, and 2 Humbucking Pickups - Trans Black Burst




www.sweetwater.com


----------



## KEM (Apr 23, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> Yeah, that doesn’t sound like a guitar issue then, especially if all of them (except one) are creating pops/clicks.
> 
> I’d either try a different interface, or look deep into your DAW settings.
> 
> ...



Love my 8 string!! I have the Lundgren M8 in it and that has the pop/click issue lol but it’s still a great sounding and playing guitar, I plan on upgrading it with an Evertune bridge and locking tuners and then it’ll be a real workhorse. That Schecter would be a great choice but I would absolutely swap out the pickups, then you’d be set


----------



## Trash Panda (Apr 23, 2022)

What is your interface?


----------



## Mike Fox (Apr 23, 2022)

KEM said:


> Love my 8 string!! I have the Lundgren M8 in it and that has the pop/click issue lol but it’s still a great sounding and playing guitar, I plan on upgrading it with an Evertune bridge and locking tuners and then it’ll be a real workhorse. That Schecter would be a great choice but I would absolutely swap out the pickups, then you’d be set


Nice!

Haha! Nah, i love those pickups. They’re like a slightly improved 81/85, but with an emphasis in the lower mids.

I know a lot of modern players have moved on from EMGs to Fishmans and Bareknuckle, but i haven’t been able to hop on that train yet. I’ve tried a few of them, and have always been underwhelmed. 🤷‍♂️


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## KEM (Apr 23, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> Nice!
> 
> Haha! Nah, i love those pickups. They’re like a slightly improved 81/85, but with an emphasis in the lower mids.
> 
> I know a lot of modern players have moved on from EMGs to Fishmans and Bareknuckle, but i haven’t been able to hop on that train yet. I’ve tried a few of them, and have always been underwhelmed. 🤷‍♂️



I am a passive pickup guy 110%, I love my Lundgren’s and Bare Knuckle’s!!


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## KEM (Apr 23, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> What is your interface?



3rd gen 4i4


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## Mike Fox (Apr 23, 2022)

KEM said:


> I am a passive pickup guy 110%, I love my Lundgren’s and Bare Knuckle’s!!


Come to think of it, passive pickups tend to have a lot more interference and anomalies than actives, so I’m wondering if there’s something going on with that.

Then again, you did say that you don’t have any issues with your dirt pedal.

Hm….

Is your studio grounded?


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## KEM (Apr 23, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> Come to think of it, passive pickups tend to have a lot more interference and anomalies than actives, so I’m wondering if there’s something going on with that.
> 
> Then again, you did say that you don’t have any issues with your dirt pedal.
> 
> ...



I’m in my parents basement so my best guess is nope lol


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## Mike Fox (Apr 23, 2022)

KEM said:


> I’m in my parents basement so my best guess is nope lol


Yeah, if it’s an older house I’m willing to bet it isn’t grounded, which opens up a never ending abyss of potential interference issues lol.

I do think i would at least try another interface or go through your DAW settings.


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## EanS (Apr 23, 2022)

It's never late to join this conversation right? I'll share what I've found but not in the chugga Metal/djent realm, those are other settings. I'd say from Funk to Heavy Rock and a bit more bite 

I went from a Bogner Barcelona (clean amp for pedals) mic'd to interface and then you learn why kings of tone like EVH, Scott Henderson, Michael Landau have their 2x12"/4x12" in a separate room. 

You need to crank it up otherwise you get no tone.

Then moved from mic to a Suhr Reactive Load. Early clipping occurred my amp doesn't break soon enough, and again. 

You need to crank it up otherwise you get no tone. Let me explain myself.

So the main idea, even for a clean sound, it's to push your Amp Power (not much gain but lots of volume) but that is the canvas, the proper state of an amp to properly react to dynamics when you play. If you ever played a good tube amp at high levels, you know how sensitive it is and shows how bad you play too if you can't control the beast. Even lightly fretting can produce action, hence, why the guitar volume.

I know I'm saying nothing new here but still, it's good to concur. Then, what you do instead is, you get a preamp pedal, a booster pedal, a drive pedal, it doesn't matter in general, can be a VST too. And you will keep this *always on* as a first in your chain, wah can be an exception. 
Settings are Level: 9-10 (almost max), Drive is near 1 to let the signal pass (more gain = more "character" and more muddy), tone is taste, but usually cut some highs, depends. 

Summary: 

Guitar > One single Pre pedal (or boost/od/drive) with settings above > (DI BOX and/or) Interface > DAW

ir if no pedal or *DI Box. 

Guitar > Interface > DAW and load a VST pedal or Helix or well, you can use pedals if they come in a suite like the helix and etc... 

*My interface is a RME Babyface Pro. No need for DI box I say, but anyway, try this plugin https://www.unitedplugins.com/DIFIX/ as a first in your FX chain (before the drive VST pedal if there's one) and A/B how the signal comes, how you feel the sound

It's always the signal, metal guitar players found out, but what I quote is what Henderson does (and bet that many more) he uses an RC Booster, many use a Minotaur Type pedal. 

Also, don't leave second the IR you are using. I say that Neural DSP ones are the only ones I never wanted to use another IR, but do consider Ownhammer, Celestion, YorkAudio , get a pair of cabs you find attractive and see what you get. 4x12 will always mess with your bass and give mud, 2x12's are almost perfect bu don't have the oomph 4x12's have. Mic decision too. Sm57 or the 421 are more suitable for high gain than a condenser. 

Amps recommendations while using that method above, where this is what I use today. 

Scuffham S-Gear: One of the best suites around, they react like amps, the amp roster is pretty noice (Fender, Dumble, Marshal, Soldano, Mesa Boogie) but it's not for heavy hitters. It doesn't get in the ML or Neural realm. Soon there will be a new update and considers effects. I use a Helix before and cabs are loaded on the same S-Gear convolution loader. 

PA Brainworx Suhr PT100: That's Plugin Alliance's Pete Thorn's Suhr . This a Fender from the clean Plexi to the Dirty Plexi Driven sound we know, won't say Brown Sound, but great Marshall Driven sound, not Meshuggah either. That goes with Wall of Sound as a Cabinet IR convolution, Ownhammer's GNR from the Evolution Series sounds noice.

PA Brainworx Friedman Dirty Shirley: Again a Marshall sound, but this one is an edge of breakup one that I keep, it has another bump on the second channel, but it's indeed that sound that cranks faster 
with attack. It's a Marshal with that Friedman sound. Two notes with York Audio's Friedman 4x12 cab and or York's 2x12 matchless cab.

Neural DSP Cory Wong's for the DI clean and the Autowah is awesome too. The Fender and Dumble are also in S-Gear so, I gravitate towards S-Gear for Dumble sound

Neural DSP SLO 100. Because it;s unique on what it does in the driver amps realm, you play a barre chore with lots of gain and this amp will show you each note pristine defined there without any mushiness. And, needed an American Hi Gain amp too. 

FX: Line 6 HXFX as an external unit only for OD/drives and Midi Controller, you can use the expression pedals from the HXFX and use it with Neural wah for instance. Or you can use the HXFX for keyswitches. Lately I've using the Helix native instead, because laziness. 

Reverb /Delay is a send FX/Bus, never as an insert, never in the main signal.

Never had CPU issues, but also, and the above NDSP versions of plugins are the latest architecture were they improved any issues regarding that. 
Last but never least: It's always the signal, so it's more important to have a good DI recording and never record the sound baked with the amp and the rest. In any time you need to revert or fix something, the DI is there. Use vst while recording just for monitoring and modeling the main tone, but in the mix, you can go and edit everything, even the cabs, so maybe a production decision would be not using the 4x12 because it's too boomy, and that will be too late and you will need to start using EQ to get there (well, IR's act as EQ lol). 

Sorry for the long post. In this since 2006 with a Guitarport


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## KEM (Apr 23, 2022)

@Mike Fox @Trash Panda First part is the clean DI into the interface, there's still headroom left so the interface isn't clipping but the pops/clicks are very apparent, the second part is with the Precision Drive engaged and you'll hear there's nothing out of the ordinary going on


----------



## visiblenoise (Apr 23, 2022)

KEM said:


> @Mike Fox @Trash Panda First part is the clean DI into the interface, there's still headroom left so the interface isn't clipping but the pops/clicks are very apparent, the second part is with the Precision Drive engaged and you'll hear there's nothing out of the ordinary going on


That first part is clean? It sounds like something is distorting it already.


----------



## Mike Fox (Apr 23, 2022)

KEM said:


> @Mike Fox @Trash Panda First part is the clean DI into the interface, there's still headroom left so the interface isn't clipping but the pops/clicks are very apparent, the second part is with the Precision Drive engaged and you'll hear there's nothing out of the ordinary going on


That “clean” part sounds like it’s being pushed pretty hard actually, almost to the point of breakup. I’m surprised your interface isn’t detecting that as clipping.

Even my Blackouts (which are really high output) don’t do that, unless I’m strumming really hard. 

Dumb question, but have you tried rolling down the volume knob on your guitar?


----------



## MartinH. (Apr 23, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> Come to think of it, passive pickups tend to have a lot more interference and anomalies than actives, so I’m wondering if there’s something going on with that.


My experience is very limited, but my EMG 808x is my noisiest pickup by far. Borderline unusable. I removed the tone control from the circuit which slightly helped and I shielded the pickup cavity with copper tape, but it's still noisier than all my passive pickups. Battery was fresh.


By the way that track you posted is epic and you have a daaamn cool studio!




KEM said:


> @Mike Fox @Trash Panda First part is the clean DI into the interface, there's still headroom left so the interface isn't clipping but the pops/clicks are very apparent, the second part is with the Precision Drive engaged and you'll hear there's nothing out of the ordinary going on


The click - when it occurs - is always at the same position of the waveform. Try out what happens when you play that same part but very softly and take care not to hit the pickup with your pick. Then try again playing it as hard as you did in your example, but dial down the volume on the guitar significantly.


----------



## KEM (Apr 23, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> That “clean” part sounds like it’s being pushed pretty hard actually, almost to the point of breakup. I’m surprised your interface isn’t detecting that as clipping.
> 
> Even my Blackouts (which are really high output) don’t do that, unless I’m strumming really hard.
> 
> Dumb question, but have you tried rolling down the volume knob on your guitar?





MartinH. said:


> My experience is very limited, but my EMG 808x is my noisiest pickup by far. Borderline unusable. I removed the tone control from the circuit which slightly helped and I shielded the pickup cavity with copper tape, but it's still noisier than all my passive pickups. Battery was fresh.
> 
> 
> By the way that track you posted is epic and you have a daaamn cool studio!
> ...



I always have my guitars volume knob turned all the way up, and I play REALLY hard cause I just like that sound, I suppose I could lower my pickups


----------



## KEM (Apr 23, 2022)

visiblenoise said:


> That first part is clean? It sounds like something is distorting it already.



Yeah direct into the interface


----------



## MartinH. (Apr 23, 2022)

KEM said:


> I always have my guitars volume knob turned all the way up, and I play REALLY hard cause I just like that sound, I suppose I could lower my pickups



Just do what we recommended to track down the source of the problem. I didn't intend it as a permanent solution. If the click remains at dialed down volume, I don't think the source is your interface. 

I have a similar phenomenon on my m80m when I mute so hard the strings touch the magnets of the pickup, but that looks different in the waveform.


----------



## Mike Fox (Apr 23, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> My experience is very limited, but my EMG 808x is my noisiest pickup by far. Borderline unusable. I removed the tone control from the circuit which slightly helped and I shielded the pickup cavity with copper tape, but it's still noisier than all my passive pickups. Battery was fresh.
> 
> 
> By the way that track you posted is epic and you have a daaamn cool studio!
> ...


Haha! Thanks, Martin! It’s honestly not much of a “studio” as my gear is pretty minimal, but i guess the esthetic hides that pretty well. Lol.

That’s really interesting about your 808x. My instincts tell me that something wasn’t wired correctly, or it was defective, especially since you say that it was borderline unusable, and active pickups are generally known to be much quieter than passives (by design, of course).

In fact, all of my actives have been dead silent, which is one reason I’m so partial to them in general. My ears are usually oversensitive to hiss, white noise, interference, etc., so I had to stop using passives, even though some are designed really well, and don’t produce that much noise.


----------



## KEM (Apr 23, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> Just do what we recommended to track down the source of the problem. I didn't intend it as a permanent solution. If the click remains at dialed down volume, I don't think the source is your interface.
> 
> I have a similar phenomenon on my m80m when I mute so hard the strings touch the magnets of the pickup, but that looks different in the waveform.



I’ll give it a shot, that M80M has the Lundgren’s as well right?


----------



## Mike Fox (Apr 23, 2022)

KEM said:


> I always have my guitars volume knob turned all the way up, and I play REALLY hard cause I just like that sound, I suppose I could lower my pickups


That’s how i usually play as well (sometimes the volume is rolled off just a tad though).

I’m also a pretty hard picker, but as long as I’m not clipping my interface, all is well.

Do you think your strings could be hitting your pickups?

That clean signal does sound like it’s being pushed pretty hard though, so yeah, try turning the volume down on your guitar a little and see if it still produces that sound.

Also, i doubt those Lundgrens are higher output than my Blackouts, so you definitely shouldn’t be experiencing clipping from the pickups alone.


----------



## KEM (Apr 23, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> That’s how i usually play as well (sometimes the volume is rolled off just a tad though).
> 
> I’m also a pretty hard picker, but as long as I’m not clipping my interface, all is well.
> 
> ...



I’ll try both options, ideally I could just lower the pickups and I’d be fine, if I lowered the volume knob I’d inevitably turn it back up out of habit and wonder why I’m clipping again


----------



## Trash Panda (Apr 23, 2022)

It sounds like your pickups are riding a bit too high. You should be able to pick your hardest and hit -6 dB peak in your DAW without clipping or getting pops.


----------



## soulofsound (Apr 23, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> Come to think of it, passive pickups tend to have a lot more interference and anomalies than actives, so I’m wondering if there’s something going on with that.
> 
> Then again, you did say that you don’t have any issues with your dirt pedal.
> 
> ...


Guitar cables are a big part of that, in my view. I use Canare GS-6, cheap and dead quiet.


----------



## soulofsound (Apr 23, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> My experience is very limited, but my EMG 808x is my noisiest pickup by far. Borderline unusable. I removed the tone control from the circuit which slightly helped and I shielded the pickup cavity with copper tape, but it's still noisier than all my passive pickups. Battery was fresh.
> 
> 
> By the way that track you posted is epic and you have a daaamn cool studio!
> ...


I have more noise, too, with active pickups. I guess the shielding is often not what it could be. That is why i prefer passive, but active pickups do have advantages and also shape the sound differently, so i do use them, too, but usually heavily gated.


----------



## Mike Fox (Apr 23, 2022)

The hell are you guys doing to get more noise out of active pups?!


----------



## MartinH. (Apr 24, 2022)

KEM said:


> I’ll give it a shot, that M80M has the Lundgren’s as well right?


Yes.



Mike Fox said:


> That’s really interesting about your 808x. My instincts tell me that something wasn’t wired correctly, or it was defective, especially since you say that it was borderline unusable, and active pickups are generally known to be much quieter than passives (by design, of course).


When I googled for solutions I found roughly 50/50 people say "well of course active pickups are less noisy, that's the whole point" and "well of course active pickups are more noisy, more active signal amplification = more noise". I bought the emg 808x new from Thomann as a solderless kit and installed it myself. Seemed pretty foolproof to me, doubt I did anything wrong.




Mike Fox said:


> The hell are you guys doing to get more noise out of active pups?!


Do you perhaps use a longer cable? I read something about impedance and cable length that made it sound like active pickups are less noisy on long cables, and I'm using a rather short cable of about 3 meters length.

I'm attaching a sample. Halfway I'm switching to the other guitar. You can tell me which one you think is the active pickup.


----------



## Trash Panda (Apr 24, 2022)

The second one is the active pickup. Are you running a gate?


----------



## dunamisstudio (Apr 24, 2022)

Hendrixon said:


> Instead of wasting money on VST amps that you will certainly add more to later, or outright replace, buy an older Axe FX, will save you money in the long run, sound better, and if you don't like it?
> Sell it for what you bought it <-- beat that plugin amps





KEM said:


> That’s still significantly more expensive than all Neural DSP plugins combined. Does it sound better? Arguably yes, but a lot of people probably can’t justify the price difference, I would love an Axe FX 3 but I definitely can’t afford that right now, and the Neural stuff is more convenient anyways


I rather get a Quad Cortex and the plugins


----------



## Mike Fox (Apr 24, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> When I googled for solutions I found roughly 50/50 people say "well of course active pickups are less noisy, that's the whole point" and "well of course active pickups are more noisy, more active signal amplification = more noise". I bought the emg 808x new from Thomann as a solderless kit and installed it myself. Seemed pretty foolproof to me, doubt I did anything wrong.
> ...


It’s really interesting to see that people have different experiences with this stuff.

I personally have always experienced passive pickups to be much more susceptible to noise and interference, while I’ve always found active pickups to be nearly dead quiet.

I mean, that’s one reason why active pickups were invented to begin with, and there’s plenty of documentation out there explaining why active pickups are theoretically more quiet than passives, but that still doesn’t change people’s first hand experience with them.

I mean, just take this thread for example, so far you have 3 people (including yourself) saying that actives have been noticeably noisier than passives, but my personal experience with active pickups say the complete opposite.

So what’s going on? No clue. 
When it comes to noise though, there’s always other variables at hand (bad pickups, shielding, ground loops, bad cables, etc.), so it can be difficult to diagnose.

But to answer your question, I’ve used all sorts of brands, and lengths of cables and none of them seem to make a significant difference in tone or noise (unless the cable is a real pile of crap, or is some stupid long length). But that’s also another 50/50 debate. Lol


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## MartinH. (Apr 24, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> It’s really interesting to see that people have different experiences with this stuff.
> 
> I personally have always experienced passive pickups to be much more susceptible to noise and interference, while I’ve always found active pickups to be nearly dead quiet.
> 
> ...


Yeah, definitely interesting. Maybe it's got something to do with the source of the interferences as well? Maybe one type of pickup is more susceptible to a certain type of electromagnetic emissions? In the active pickup I often heard whining sounds that stick out of the monotone hiss. Do you want to guess which half of my example clip is the active pickup, or should I just reveal it? 


@Trash Panda: Normally I would be running RX Elements voice denoise and a gate, but of course for this demonstration of the noise I deactivated those.


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## Mike Fox (Apr 24, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> Yeah, definitely interesting. Maybe it's got something to do with the source of the interferences as well? Maybe one type of pickup is more susceptible to a certain type of electromagnetic emissions? In the active pickup I often heard whining sounds that stick out of the monotone hiss. Do you want to guess which half of my example clip is the active pickup, or should I just reveal it?
> 
> 
> @Trash Panda: Normally I would be running RX Elements voice denoise and a gate, but of course for this demonstration of the noise I deactivated those.


Regarding the clip, I'm hearing more noise in the first half (not much though), so I'm not really sure after your personal analysis. Go ahead and reveal it!

My first thought about that clip was that if one of those are an active pickup? Something sounds off to me, like overly noisy (or the gain is just cranked too high).

For example, check out this clip i just did using the Omega plugin, and my guitar with Blackouts, It's not nearly as noisy as the example in your clip (no gate is being used).


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## Learningtomix (Apr 24, 2022)

I sympathise with the issues of noise!

I've experienced transient 'spiking' ruining otherwise good takes. I replaced my usual cable with a decent quality cable, but still run into the issue with my new revstar with p90's when picking open high string arpeggios. I've ruled out faulty or badly wired pickups which can cause spiking through intermittent electric contacts (my Ibanez with dimarzios spikes due to my poor soldering work). With the revstar I'm now working on the theory that treble transient output is responsible for momentarily overloading the interface and that rolling back some of the treble will help. 

Good luck with your troubleshooting.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 24, 2022)

I stopped worrying about guitar VSTs once I got a Kemper (and the Kemper cab). Much more fun to play through as well than a VST. Still occasionally worry about pedals though.


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## webs (Apr 24, 2022)

I see the value of ultimately going external (dsp quad cortex, kemper, etc.), but given the cost, I'm currently digging the IR route.

Seem to have the hard stuff covered.

*What's the best IR set for clean to light breakup that sounds like old fender amps?*

(already have Amplitube Fender packs and the uad fender, which are "ok," but not quite "it.")

Is there a clear "winner" or just "variations" ?


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## MartinH. (Apr 24, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> Regarding the clip, I'm hearing more noise in the first half (not much though), so I'm not really sure after your personal analysis. Go ahead and reveal it!
> 
> My first thought about that clip was that if one of those are an active pickup? Something sounds off to me, like overly noisy (or the gain is just cranked).
> 
> For example, check out this clip i just did using the Omega plugin, and my guitar with Blackouts, It's not nearly as noisy as the example in your clip. I'm also not using a gate.





Trash Panda said:


> The second one is the active pickup. Are you running a gate?


Actually the first one was the active pickup. I'm attaching another example, first half is active again. This time no playing, just held each guitar in the position where the noise was the lowest and hit record. 

@Mike Fox I have the gain on the high side for sure (17% on the boost pedal plugin and 7/10 on the ampsim), I like high gain sounds and I don't pick very hard. Could you please upload your unprocessed DI, so that I can put it through my signal chain to see how the noisefloor would sound from your guitar?


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## soulofsound (Apr 24, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> It’s really interesting to see that people have different experiences with this stuff.
> 
> I personally have always experienced passive pickups to be much more susceptible to noise and interference, while I’ve always found active pickups to be nearly dead quiet.
> 
> ...


My guess it's to do with the quality of the pickups. The ones i have are pretty cheap. I think another user mentioned EMG X 81 pickups which are among the cheapest they sell. I think the quality of the parts in those is less than stellar. Although normally EMG is considered high quality, so it may well be the pickup is faulty.

As to the cabling, you could try the Canare GS-6 and see if it makes a difference. It made a huge difference in my case. Huge. And i had been experimenting with expensive cabling like Klotz etc. but the GS-6, though cheap, made a much bigger difference than any other cable i ever tried.


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## Mike Fox (Apr 24, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> Actually the first one was the active pickup. I'm attaching another example, first half is active again. This time no playing, just held each guitar in the position where the noise was the lowest and hit record.
> 
> @Mike Fox I have the gain on the high side for sure (17% on the boost pedal plugin and 7/10 on the ampsim), I like high gain sounds and I don't pick very hard. Could you please upload your unprocessed DI, so that I can put it through my signal chain to see how the noisefloor would sound from your guitar?


If you're combining a boost pedal with an already distorted signal, and playing with active pickups? You're definitely going to get some unwanted noise if the gain levels aren't adjusted properly, which actually gives me a thought about the 50/50 anecdote you mentioned.

So, active pickups usually have higher output, right? So I can't help but wonder if some people are using the exact same gain settings for their actives that they use for their passives. In other words, people with passives have to crank the gain a lot higher on their amps than people with actives, but when they plug their guitar that has actives in, they aren't taking into account that you don't need anywhere near the same levels of gain as you do with passives, so the outcome is going to seem like the active pickup is MUCH noisier, when really it's just that they haven't made the proper adjustments for their active pickups.

So If you have the gain on the high side in your clips, then I'd say it's probably overkill for an active pickup (which could be resulting in all that extra noise), as they don't need that much gain, even if you are a light picker.

You heard how quiet my clip was, right? The noise floor is minimal, yet there's plenty of gain. That's been my experience with active pickups in general.

But yeah! I can totally upload the DI, What type of file do you prefer?


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## Mike Fox (Apr 24, 2022)

soulofsound said:


> My guess it's to do with the quality of the pickups. The ones i have are pretty cheap. I think another user mentioned EMG X 81 pickups which are among the cheapest they sell. I think the quality of the parts in those is less than stellar.


I honestly wouldn't be surprised if this was a contributing factor somewhere in the equation.


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## soulofsound (Apr 24, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> I honestly wouldn't be surprised if this was a contributing factor somewhere in the equation.


Your initial idea holds in my view: active pickups have much less noise. This is a rule. And sometimes the rule is somehow broken, but not changed because of it. But with good cabling i think passive systems can have very low noise also.


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## MartinH. (Apr 24, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> So, active pickups usually have higher output, right?


My EMG808x is almost the same output as the passive Lundgren pickup. This is a screenshot of the DIs from the clip I uploaded. I never adjust the gain on the interface and the guitars are always at max volume. Then again, the 808x is said to behave closer to a passive pickup than the regular 808. Maybe that's why?








Mike Fox said:


> But yeah! I can totally upload the DI, What type of file do you prefer?


Ideally wav, thanks a lot! I'm just curious how it would sound through my fx chain. I expect it to be quieter than my EMG, possibly also quieter than my Lundgren, because I think I just have a whole lot of interference sources here. There are like 2 dozen wifi networks in range according to my router.




soulofsound said:


> My guess it's to do with the quality of the pickups. The ones i have are pretty cheap. I think another user mentioned EMG X 81 pickups which are among the cheapest they sell. I think the quality of the parts in those is less than stellar. Although normally EMG is considered high quality, so it may well be the pickup is faulty.


A single 808x is 98€ and a set of 2 Blackouts is 299€ at thomann, so the blackouts are more expensive for sure.


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## KEM (Apr 24, 2022)

Misha Mansoor says active pickups suck so that’s really all I needed to hear on the argument


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## Mike Fox (Apr 24, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> My EMG808x is almost the same output as the passive Lundgren pickup. This is a screenshot of the DIs from the clip I uploaded. I never adjust the gain on the interface and the guitars are always at max volume. Then again, the 808x is said to behave closer to a passive pickup than the regular 808. Maybe that's why?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. I'll send something your way in the next few hours. Would you mind doing the same? I'm really curious to see what I can do with it.


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## Trash Panda (Apr 24, 2022)

If you’re having line noise issues, one of these might help, it certainly made a difference for me: Panamax MD2 2-Outlet Surge Suppressor with LED Diagnostic Lights 

I had an extra left over from my home theater buildout, so on a lark I hooked up my PC and amp into it and both had an audible drop in hum and hiss. My house was built in the 90s and I’ve noticed some dodgy corner cutting in some areas, so I expect the electrical system isn’t safe from that either.


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## Aldunate (Apr 24, 2022)

Softube Amp Room is insane sounding and value


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## MartinH. (Apr 24, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> Thanks for the info. I'll send something your way in the next few hours. Would you mind doing the same? I'm really curious to see what I can do with it.


Thanks and sure, no problem! I think the forum doesn't allow wav uploads, but zip seems to work. 




Trash Panda said:


> If you’re having line noise issues, one of these might help, it certainly made a difference for me: Panamax MD2 2-Outlet Surge Suppressor with LED Diagnostic Lights
> 
> I had an extra left over from my home theater buildout, so on a lark I hooked up my PC and amp into it and both had an audible drop in hum and hiss. My house was built in the 90s and I’ve noticed some dodgy corner cutting in some areas, so I expect the electrical system isn’t safe from that either.



The amazon link doesn't work somehow and one you mentioned is for the wrong type of wall sockets for me (I'm in Germany), but I'll have a look what's available around here, thanks for the recommendation!


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## KEM (Apr 24, 2022)

A DI comparison sounds interesting, I’ll do one between my Lundgren and my Alpha/Omega


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## Hendrixon (Apr 24, 2022)

webs said:


> I see the value of ultimately going external (dsp quad cortex, kemper, etc.), but given the cost, I'm currently digging the IR route.
> 
> Seem to have the hard stuff covered.
> 
> ...


IR set? you mean cabs or amps?


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## KEM (Apr 24, 2022)

webs said:


> I see the value of ultimately going external (dsp quad cortex, kemper, etc.), but given the cost, I'm currently digging the IR route.
> 
> Seem to have the hard stuff covered.
> 
> ...



GGD Studio Cabs Zilla are my favorite for clean tones


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## Trash Panda (Apr 24, 2022)

webs said:


> I see the value of ultimately going external (dsp quad cortex, kemper, etc.), but given the cost, I'm currently digging the IR route.
> 
> Seem to have the hard stuff covered.
> 
> ...


There is no best for anything. There is only what is best to your ears. Never trust anyone who argues one specific product as the best.

Only Siths deal in absolutes.


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## Mike Fox (Apr 24, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> Thanks and sure, no problem! I think the forum doesn't allow wav uploads, but zip seems to work.
> 
> 
> 
> The amazon link doesn't work somehow and one you mentioned is for the wrong type of wall sockets for me (I'm in Germany), but I'll have a look what's available around here, thanks for the recommendation!


Alright, so I did an A/B comparison and for whatever those EMG pickups are MUCH noisier than the Blackouts. If you listen to the comparison clip (which has no playing), the first half are the Blackouts, and you'll immediately notice when it switches to the EMGs.

Regardless, I do think the EMGs are totally useable (especially with a gate), i would just ride the gain a lot lower (I included a clip for that as well). Obviously, we all have different tastes, but its just to show how i personally would use those EMGs.

I am still a bit baffled about the amount of noise the EMGs are making. I'm just not sure if its normal for those particular pickups. I know for a fact it wouldn't be normal for an 85/81. I've had those as EMGs as well, and they're just as quiet as the Blackouts.


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## webs (Apr 24, 2022)

Hendrixon said:


> IR set? you mean cabs or amps?


Yes I should clarify. I meant IRs of cabs. I said sets because it seems a lot of times there are a few IRs in a "set". Trying to find the ones that most resemble old fender amps (or trick my brain into thinking they're old fender amps anyway.)


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## webs (Apr 24, 2022)

KEM said:


> GGD Studio Cabs Zilla are my favorite for clean tones


Thanks, yes I tried GGD Cali at your recommendation for heavy, and they are nice. I worried the cleans are nice and clean, but not fender-ish. Would you say they are fender-ish, or just good "cleans."


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## webs (Apr 24, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> There is no best for anything. There is only what is best to your ears. Never trust anyone who argues one specific product as the best.
> 
> Only Siths deal in absolutes.


Yes, I agree. I was looking for some of people's faves.


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## KEM (Apr 24, 2022)

webs said:


> Thanks, yes I tried GGD Cali at your recommendation for heavy, and they are nice. I worried the cleans are nice and clean, but not fender-ish. Would you say they are fender-ish, or just good "cleans."



They should be able to get you there yeah, I use them for the very boutique cleans but I’d imagine with the right amount you should be able to get that old Fender sound


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## Trash Panda (Apr 24, 2022)

webs said:


> Yes, I agree. I was looking for some of people's faves.


Thes are pretty comprehensive and reasonably priced. Redwirez and Ownhammer are solid and well priced. 

The second one covers Fender, Vox, Orange, etc. 









BIGbox ✘: Vintage Classics


The most comprehensive set of impulse responses available. We painstakingly sampled 22 speaker cabinets with a vintage vibe. Add some oomph to your amp sim. For use with any IR loader. Or, with the Redwirez mixIR³ to quickly audition mic positions using graphical 3D cabinets.




redwirez.com









(r)Evolution Debut Bundle - $29.99 : OwnHammer.com - Store


OwnHammer.com (r)Evolution Debut Bundle - Cabinets and Speakers 112 DVRBBased on a Fender® Deluxe Reverb® 1x12 combo. CTS-C12Based on a 1978 ceramic Fender® CTS speaker. 112 VC15Based on a Vox® AC15 hardwood 1x12 combo. SLV-12BBased on a 1967 Celestion® silver AlNiCo speaker. 115 VVRBBased on a...



www.ownhammer.com


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## MartinH. (Apr 24, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> Alright, so I did an A/B comparison and for whatever those EMG pickups are MUCH noisier than the Blackouts. If you listen to the comparison clip (which has no playing), the first half are the Blackouts, and you'll immediately notice when it switches to the EMGs.
> 
> Regardless, I do think the EMGs are totally useable (especially with a gate), i would just ride the gain a lot lower (I included a clip for that as well). Obviously, we all have different tastes, but its just to show how i personally would use those EMGs.
> 
> I am still a bit baffled about the amount of noise the EMGs are making. I'm just not sure if its normal for those particular pickups. I know for a fact it wouldn't be normal for an 85/81. I've had those as EMGs as well, and they're just as quiet as the Blackouts.



Wow, those blackouts are super quiet compared to all my pickups, active or not! Here's first my lundgren pickup then your blackout through my chain. I dialed down the volume on your DI to match the level I recorded my Lundgren at, because that's what the chain was set for and makes for a fair comparison. After processing the noisefloor on mine is like 15 db higher. Night and day difference. However the difference between yours and mine is so much bigger than between my 4 guitars, they can't all have the same kind of defect. It must be something else about my recording environment that causes it. May even be outside of my control, I've heard a story about a recording studio that got so much interference from a neighboring store that there was barely a spot in the studio where they could record electric guitars.

Edit: I recorded another test clip (not attached) with the EMG pickup plugged directly into the line-in of a battery powered recording device (Tascam DR40), and the noise floor was even higher than with my audio interface. I'm thinking that should rule out anything being wrong with my grounding or audio interface, right? I'll try again when the PC is powered down for comparison.


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## MartinH. (Apr 25, 2022)

So I made test recordings on the battery powered Tascam DR40 with pc etc running, and with every single thing in my room unplugged and even the wifi router in the hallway unplugged. The difference was negligable. I don't know whether the Tascam just has so shitty preamps/converters on the line inputs that the noisefloor of the device is so high it drowns out any differences, or the EM interference is just so strong it doesn't matter. 

I did make one more test with the PC running and guitars plugged into my audio interface. First half is EMG, second is Lundgren. I started both at the exact same distance from the PC, guitar standing on the floor at the edge of a shelf, and after some time moved the guitars near the pc to about 10cm away from the case, where both pickups are screaming from the interference they pick up. However at the start of the measurement the Lundgren is way less noisy. 

What's the recording situation with the lowest theoretical noisefloor on my interface? I recorded a test clip with just the cable plugged in and shorted out at the tip, and that was still more noisy than Mike's blackout DI. Shouldn't this theoretically be quieter since no pickup or microphone is connected?


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## Hendrixon (Apr 25, 2022)

webs said:


> Yes I should clarify. I meant IRs of cabs. I said sets because it seems a lot of times there are a few IRs in a "set". Trying to find the ones that most resemble old fender amps (or trick my brain into thinking they're old fender amps anyway.)


Thought so but wanted to be sure, since you asked about "clean to light breakup".
IRs are nothing more then an EQ snapshot, they poses no info about dynamic behavior, distortion, modulation, feedback etc.
Further more, IRs of guitar cabs are driven by using super clean and flat amps, usually beefy solid state amps with damping factors thru the roof, which is the opposite from guitar tube amps.

All in all its a cool technology but it gives nothing more then an approximation.

To my knowledge there is no dynamic IR product out there that behaves differently based on the level of the signal it gets fed. there isn't even an IR pack that provide impulses across different signal levels.
And yes, speaker cones/magnets/cabs behave differently based on the signal being fed.

Its really a crap shoot 
Get some IRs of the cabs you think you need, and like a rolodex go thru them one by one until one of them clicks with what you want. from that point? don't be afraid to use parametric eq as much as needed. its just more eq on top of the IR=eq snapshot.

As an example, in real life I never liked the Celestion V30, my ears are really tuned to greenbacks.
I had a track once that no matter how I mixed it, the damn guitar was buried in the mix. I tried different greenbacks irs I like without luck. out of frustration I opened a folder with a crap load of IRs, wrote a short script the changed the IR every couple of seconds and left the track playing in the loop.
After like 10 minutes my guitar suddenly jumped out from the mix and sounded great.
It was an IR of a cab loaded with 2x12 V30... really far from the 4x12 greenies I'm used to

Dinner is ready


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## Hendrixon (Apr 25, 2022)

A word about active pickups.
They are not quieter because they are "active" (meaning they have a preamp on board).
Also they are not active, or at least it wasn't the initial goal, in order to provide a hot signal.

The main thing is that guitar pickups are simply antennas, the more wire the more signal picked but also the more noise.
And its not linear, as you add more wire to a coil, the signal to noise ratio gets *worse*.
So use less wire I hear you say?
Well yea, the SNR will get better, but then the output will be lower, too low to drive a tube front end... so we needed to strike a balance... at least in passive pickups. the balance was found around what we are familiar these days, those classic single coils and humbucker pickups. that balance is also responsible for the spectrum of frequencies we grew up on hearing. those pickups have a nice chunk of wire on them, turning them into a high impedance signal source. for the sake of not scaring non techie readers, lets say that impedance is resistance.
* from here when ever I say resistance I mean impedance
[impedance is a scale of resistance that increase in relation to frequency. the higher the frequency, the higher the resistance]

One day someone thought that electronics are small enough, they can use low enough current that they can be driven by batteries for a long time, so he built a pickup with less wire on it. that pickup had better SNR, it had low output because of less wire but then the preamp boosted the signal to an acceptable level, the preamp was also essential in matching the low "resistance" signal source (solid state can work in low "resistances" much better then tubes).

And that's why _*proper *_active pickups (as in low impedance coils) have less noise

Hmmm... yes... but the sound? what's the story there?
Well that's material for a different post


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## Mike Fox (Apr 25, 2022)

Hendrixon said:


> A word about active pickups.
> They are not quieter because they are "active" (meaning they have a preamp on board).
> Also they are not active, or at least it wasn't the initial goal, in order to provide a hot signal.
> 
> ...


Right. Less copper = less noise.

It’s still interesting to see the variation amongst users though (people saying that actives are just as noisy as as passives, clearly showing that there’s more to noise and interference sources than just pickups).

As far as sound/tone goes? I’ll take some good actives over any passive for metal. 🤘


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## Mike Fox (Apr 25, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> So I made test recordings on the battery powered Tascam DR40 with pc etc running, and with every single thing in my room unplugged and even the wifi router in the hallway unplugged. The difference was negligable. I don't know whether the Tascam just has so shitty preamps/converters on the line inputs that the noisefloor of the device is so high it drowns out any differences, or the EM interference is just so strong it doesn't matter.
> 
> I did make one more test with the PC running and guitars plugged into my audio interface. First half is EMG, second is Lundgren. I started both at the exact same distance from the PC, guitar standing on the floor at the edge of a shelf, and after some time moved the guitars near the pc to about 10cm away from the case, where both pickups are screaming from the interference they pick up. However at the start of the measurement the Lundgren is way less noisy.
> 
> What's the recording situation with the lowest theoretical noisefloor on my interface? I recorded a test clip with just the cable plugged in and shorted out at the tip, and that was still more noisy than Mike's blackout DI. Shouldn't this theoretically be quieter since no pickup or microphone is connected?


It’s really difficult to say what’s going on in your studio.

It is odd that you’re getting noise with nothing plugged in though (i too would assume that it should be quieter). 

As I mentioned earlier, ungrounded outlets can cause heaps of unwanted noise. Do you know if they are grounded or not?

It also could be your interface. I’m sure you tried different cables as well, correct?


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## webs (Apr 25, 2022)

Hendrixon said:


> Thought so but wanted to be sure, since you asked about "clean to light breakup".
> IRs are nothing more then an EQ snapshot, they poses no info about dynamic behavior, distortion, modulation, feedback etc.
> Further more, IRs of guitar cabs are driven by using super clean and flat amps, usually beefy solid state amps with damping factors thru the roof, which is the opposite from guitar tube amps.
> 
> ...


Thank you - lot to consider! I suppose I envisioned (hoped) that rather than an simply eq snapshot, there was a layer of something dynamic applied to bring them to "life." Almost seems like one could do with an amp sim and an eq.


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## Learningtomix (Apr 25, 2022)

webs said:


> Thank you - lot to consider! I suppose I envisioned (hoped) that rather than an simply eq snapshot, there was a layer of something dynamic applied to bring them to "life." Almost seems like one could do with an amp sim and an eq.


Celestion have a product which claims to be next level ir technology, with dynamic ir responses. I haven't used it but am potentially interested in demoing it.










SpeakerMix Pro – Studio Grade Plugin for IRs and DSRs


SpeakerMix Pro - SpeakerMix Pro is a studio-grade plugin from Celestion, bringing ground-breaking guitar & bass speaker tone on your digital audio workstation




www.celestionplus.com


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## Hendrixon (Apr 25, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> Right. Less copper = less noise.
> 
> It’s still interesting to see the variation amongst users though (people saying that actives are just as noisy as as passives, clearly showing that there’s more to noise and interference sources than just pickups).
> 
> As far as sound/tone goes? I’ll take some good actives over any passive for metal. 🤘


Its hard judging other people setup from a far...
But the fact is low impedance coils, millivolt to millivolt, have better SNR then high impedance coils.
It's an electrical fact, not a personal opinion.


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## Mike Fox (Apr 25, 2022)

Hendrixon said:


> Its hard judging other people setup from a far...
> But the fact is low impedance coils, millivolt to millivolt, have better SNR then high impedance coils.
> It's an electrical fact, not a personal opinion.


It’s also an electrical fact that active pickups sound better than passives!


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## MartinH. (Apr 25, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> As I mentioned earlier, ungrounded outlets can cause heaps of unwanted noise. Do you know if they are grounded or not?


I would expect them to be, but I'm not sure how to check. And now that you mention it, in another room we had an issue where there was a current running on the ground. Touching the electric kettle at the same time as the water tap gave me a mild but painful shock. We had that fixed by an electrician, but I can't rule out other things being faulty. How would that sound in the line noise though? Wouldn't a current be some kind of hum? What I'm seein is more like mostly even white noise.
I think the outlet being entirely ungrounded is rather unlikely. 

Another random thought: what if a neighbor is using some of those ethernet over powerline adaptors? I bet those can cause a lot of noise too. 

I'm really tempted to buy a new interface to see if that fixes it before I try look everywhere else for problems that might not even be there. If it's no improvement at all I can still send it back if I feel the need.



Mike Fox said:


> It also could be your interface. I’m sure you tried different cables as well, correct?


Other cables didn't make a difference.


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## Mike Fox (Apr 25, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> I would expect them to be, but I'm not sure how to check. And now that you mention it, in another room we had an issue where there was a current running on the ground. Touching the electric kettle at the same time as the water tap gave me a mild but painful shock. We had that fixed by an electrician, but I can't rule out other things being faulty. How would that sound in the line noise though? Wouldn't a current be some kind of hum? What I'm seein is more like mostly even white noise.
> I think the outlet being entirely ungrounded is rather unlikely.
> 
> Another random thought: what if a neighbor is using some of those ethernet over powerline adaptors? I bet those can cause a lot of noise too.
> ...


Ungrounded outlets can cause all sorts of anomalies. I once lived in an older house that wasn’t grounded, and it was an absolute nightmare trying to get rid of noise (buzzing, hum, hiss, etc). 

Not sure about the ethernet adaptors causing noise. Possibly?


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## Hendrixon (Apr 25, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> I would expect them to be, but I'm not sure how to check. And now that you mention it, in another room we had an issue where there was a current running on the ground. Touching the electric kettle at the same time as the water tap gave me a mild but painful shock. We had that fixed by an electrician, but I can't rule out other things being faulty. How would that sound in the line noise though? Wouldn't a current be some kind of hum? What I'm seein is more like mostly even white noise.
> I think the outlet being entirely ungrounded is rather unlikely.
> 
> Another random thought: what if a neighbor is using some of those ethernet over powerline adaptors? I bet those can cause a lot of noise too.
> ...


Do you have access to a UPS? or laptop?
That way you can run your setup on battery power, to isolate the house.


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## Hendrixon (Apr 25, 2022)

webs said:


> Almost seems like one could do with an amp sim and an eq.


Not almost, 100% most  
I used this a Palmer PDI 09 many moons ago, way before impulse response and VST amps were a thing. its all analog passive set of eq filters mimicking a generic guitar cab tone like sort of kinda lol


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## Mike Fox (Apr 25, 2022)

Hendrixon said:


> As an example, in real life I never liked the Celestion V30, my ears are really tuned to greenbacks.
> I had a track once that no matter how I mixed it, the damn guitar was buried in the mix. I tried different greenbacks irs I like without luck. out of frustration I opened a folder with a crap load of IRs, wrote a short script the changed the IR every couple of seconds and left the track playing in the loop.
> After like 10 minutes my guitar suddenly jumped out from the mix and sounded great.
> It was an IR of a cab loaded with 2x12 V30... really far from the 4x12 greenies I'm used to


Makes sense. V30s have a noticeable mid hump in their eq, which is exactly what you need for standing out in a mix. I think that's actually one reason why Mesa uses them in their rectifier cabs, because the rectifier amps seriously benefit from it. My all time favorite speaker, btw!


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## MartinH. (Apr 26, 2022)

Hendrixon said:


> Do you have access to a UPS? or laptop?
> That way you can run your setup on battery power, to isolate the house.


No, I have a super old netbook and wanted to test my interface with that, but I couldn't even install the driver and had to give up.


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## shropshirelad (Jun 26, 2022)

S-Gear is on sale at the moment and version 3 is imminent - the upgrade is free. I've got pretty much every amp sim known to man and feel S-Gear reaches the parts that others can't. Highly recommended indeed.


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## Hendrixon (Jun 26, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> Makes sense. V30s have a noticeable mid hump in their eq, which is exactly what you need for standing out in a mix. I think that's actually one reason why Mesa uses them in their rectifier cabs, because the rectifier amps seriously benefit from it. My all time favorite speaker, btw!


Yup they work well in mesa because the mesa traditional amp sound is mid dip, so a mid hump speaker fits it.


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