# Sibelius 7 help...



## Casey Edwards (Jul 11, 2012)

I'm a Finale user trying to break the learning curve of Sibelius. I've found some very helpful material online, but I'm stuck on some of the layout options that I know very well in Finale, so if you guys could lend me a hand that would be great!

What I'm trying to do is get the instrument names, brackets, and braces to look like this -> http://image-7.verycd.com/d70ecf92453e8ef6f2a37052e46dc367132423(600x)/thumb.jpg

Where when you have Picc., Flute 1 and 2 they are bracketed together, and also you only write Flute once and then have it to the left of numbers 1 and 2 stacked vertically. Then to have the proceeding pages with the same layout but in abbreviated format. In Finale this is easy with Group functions, but in Sibelius I'm lost. 

ALSO, any help on going from score to parts would be helpful!


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## snattack (Jul 11, 2012)

Add/Remove Instruments -> Add i.e. Flute -> Select the flute in the window to the right and choose "add extra staff".

It's also described in page 442-443 in the manual how to set the staff names that way.

Best,
A


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## Casey Edwards (Jul 11, 2012)

snattack @ Wed Jul 11 said:


> Add/Remove Instruments -> Add i.e. Flute -> Select the flute in the window to the right and choose "add extra staff".
> 
> It's also described in page 442-443 in the manual how to set the staff names that way.
> 
> ...



Those page references in the Sibelius 7 manual are about lyrics. I really do need help in this regard. Everything else, after some research and setting up, feels pretty simliar to Finale. I just need to learn how to use the layout functions of Sibelius.


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## sbkp (Jul 11, 2012)

This is the closest I know how to get (I don't use that layout, so I just figured this out).

Note that the Oboe staves' "1" and "2" are part of the "Oboe" or "Ob." text and so have fixed spacing. So in the second system, in which I've created more space between the staves, the numbers don't line up anymore. The Sibelius manual describes this process and this exact "gotcha", so I don't know if there's a better solution. (Other than creating technique text or something for every system... blecccccchhh.)

I'm not sure what abbreviation you'd want for Picc/Fl 3. I guess maybe just the current instrument at that point in the score? But for now I put Picc/(Fl). 

Also, I have some part techniques that seem pretty effective and efficient to me. PM me if you want to set something up.


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## sbkp (Jul 11, 2012)

Got it. Ooh, spiffy. I think I'll do layout this way now! 

The technique came from here: http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcen ... me=#393715

I can't take any credit for the awesome out-of-the-box thinking that required!


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## Casey Edwards (Jul 11, 2012)

Stefan, you are a life saver! Any pointers at all for Sibelius is appreciated. So please, PM away.


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## bryla (Jul 11, 2012)

Please PLEASE remember that the way it's set up in Hal Leonard is not the only way to do it and surely not the best way. And remember that just because you like John Williams it is NOT his copyists layout it IS Hal Leonard. Study the art of engraving to see what you can do.


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## Casey Edwards (Jul 12, 2012)

bryla @ Thu Jul 12 said:


> Please PLEASE remember that the way it's set up in Hal Leonard is not the only way to do it and surely not the best way. And remember that just because you like John Williams it is NOT his copyists layout it IS Hal Leonard. Study the art of engraving to see what you can do.



I HAVE studied engraving and my orchestration teacher was once a professional publisher. I could have used my own score for asking how to set this up in Sibelius, but I thought finding a familiar score would be easier for others to see. I prefer this setup and couldn't, for the life of me, figure out how to do this in Sibelius like I can Finale.


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## windshore (Jul 12, 2012)

bryla @ 7/11/2012 said:


> Please PLEASE remember that the way it's set up in Hal Leonard is not the only way to do it and surely not the best way. And remember that just because you like John Williams it is NOT his copyists layout it IS Hal Leonard. Study the art of engraving to see what you can do.



Ha! +1

I was watching this and biting my tongue. It is good to know workarounds for issues like this. Whether this is the best way to set up a score is certainly debatable & probably a different topic.


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## Casey Edwards (Jul 12, 2012)

windshore @ Thu Jul 12 said:


> bryla @ 7/11/2012 said:
> 
> 
> > Please PLEASE remember that the way it's set up in Hal Leonard is not the only way to do it and surely not the best way. And remember that just because you like John Williams it is NOT his copyists layout it IS Hal Leonard. Study the art of engraving to see what you can do.
> ...



The point is, this is MY preferred setup, and it has absolutely nothing to do with Hal Leonard or John Williams. To me it's just super clean. I'm not sure what part extraction would be like for this workaround though. Finale makes this VERY easy with groups that have separate functions for score and parts.

Do you guys have any advice on working with parts in Sibelius?


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## bryla (Jul 12, 2012)

what do you mean with working in parts? Type W

As for the layout I think I've made my point


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## Casey Edwards (Jul 12, 2012)

bryla @ Thu Jul 12 said:


> what do you mean with working in parts? Type W
> 
> As for the layout I think I've made my point



I meant anything I should be aware of when dealing with parts vs score editing in Sibelius. I'm still quite new to Sibelius. 

And yes you made your point, but there was no reason to enter the conversation as if I'm a blind fanboy of JW when I'm was simply asking for a technique I didn't understand in a new program. So please PLEASE ask before you jump the gun next time.


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## bryla (Jul 12, 2012)

Dynamic parts in Sibelius make sure that whatever is on the stave in the score or system is in the appropriate part.

In the View pane you can check 'differences in parts' which will highlight objects orange in the parts if they somehow are differing from the score. This is only a graphic issue if you want to move text or signs slightly in the parts.

As for JW I've just seen composers make a mess of their score just to make it look like the sig. ed.s


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## Casey Edwards (Jul 12, 2012)

bryla @ Thu Jul 12 said:


> Dynamic parts in Sibelius make sure that whatever is on the stave in the score or system is in the appropriate part.
> 
> In the View pane you can check 'differences in parts' which will highlight objects orange in the parts if they somehow are differing from the score. This is only a graphic issue if you want to move text or signs slightly in the parts.
> 
> As for JW I've just seen composers make a mess of their score just to make it look like the sig. ed.s



Yeah, that's not me. I go for what works and looks best for certain projects. Besides, those are study scores. When I prepare a large score like that I do so with a conductor in mind, not a student. Sometimes I prefer every part to be on separate staves when a lot of divisi is in effect depending on the instrument. Anyways, I appreciate the help. I just need to keep doing so I can learn this program.


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## windshore (Jul 12, 2012)

Your best method of working in Sib stay in score mode as much as possible. The program is actually remarkably intelligent at laying out the parts. 

I'm not sure you were asking this but it will only create a part for each "instrument" shown in the score, so for instance you would not be able to extract Flute 2 in your particular setup here.

Don't know if you're in Sib 6 or 7 but you can do multi-part formatting and printing from the "parts" window pane. (in 6 I think it comes up with command / option R - in 7 go to the "Parts" tab for formatting etc.


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## Casey Edwards (Jul 12, 2012)

windshore @ Thu Jul 12 said:


> Your best method of working in Sib stay in score mode as much as possible. The program is actually remarkably intelligent at laying out the parts.
> 
> I'm not sure you were asking this but it will only create a part for each "instrument" shown in the score, so for instance you would not be able to extract Flute 2 in your particular setup here.
> 
> Don't know if you're in Sib 6 or 7 but you can do multi-part formatting and printing from the "parts" window pane. (in 6 I think it comes up with command / option R - in 7 go to the "Parts" tab for formatting etc.



Gotcha, that makes good sense. Thanks for the info. What about parts that almost always share parts. 4-6 horns is a pretty normal ensemble for horns and they are 2 players to a part in a conductor score. How do you go about making 2 separate parts for Horn 1 and 2, etc.?


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## bryla (Jul 12, 2012)

you practically duplicate the horn part and hide the notes the other players are playing.... very annoying


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## Casey Edwards (Jul 12, 2012)

bryla @ Thu Jul 12 said:


> you practically duplicate the horn part and hide the notes the other players are playing.... very annoying



How do you hide rests and notes in Sibelius? Finale was a simple 'H' click in speedy entry.


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## Casey Edwards (Jul 12, 2012)

Never mind...I was one right click away from finding out. You guys are awesome. Thanks for the tips.


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## sbkp (Jul 12, 2012)

I actually create a part as the conductor score. Then in the full (master) score, I create extra staves for the parts I need to split. Those don't show up in the conductor score and it makes it easier to make changes to the master part if (when) I find things to correct while creating parts.

I have no idea if that made any sense. But it works for me


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## Daryl (Jul 13, 2012)

Casey Edwards @ Fri Jul 13 said:


> bryla @ Thu Jul 12 said:
> 
> 
> > you practically duplicate the horn part and hide the notes the other players are playing.... very annoying
> ...


Check out some of the plugins as well. for example, if you have two voices on one stave, that often gives you duplicate rests, which can look messy. there is a nifty little plugin (that I have on a KC) that hides the unnecessary ones.

D


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## windshore (Jul 13, 2012)

sbkp @ 7/12/2012 said:


> I actually create a part as the conductor score. Then in the full (master) score, I create extra staves for the parts I need to split. Those don't show up in the conductor score and it makes it easier to make changes to the master part if (when) I find things to correct while creating parts.
> I have no idea if that made any sense. But it works for me



Personally, I almost keep parts separate in the score. Unless I'm specifically making a consolidated score, I think of combined parts as a throw-back to hand-copying. But...

as sbkp said: a separate conductor's score - created as a part is a good way to go. (You can also use the feature called "Focus on staves" but a separate conductor's part will probably give you less hassle.)

This is a very good way to go when creating a complex score. You will have to go to that "Parts" window I mentioned before and "create new part" - which gives you a dialog where you can include or exclude anything you want in the new conductor's part.

Probably the best way to work is to start with 2 separate horn parts. When they are finished, create a new instrument. (Hit "i" on the keyboard for the instrument box.) Add a new Horn. You can then copy and past horn 1 to the new combined horn part. 

Then triple click on an empty part of any bar in horn 2. That will select the contents of the whole part, then hit "Shift / V" which flips that to Voice 2. 

Now with this still selected hit: Command / Option / Shift / 2. (The 2 has to be on the QWERTY Keyboard, not numeric.) That selects contents of Voice 2 only. (This is so you don't overwrite voice one in the new part.) Now copy and paste into the first bar of your new horn part and you'll be set. As implied earlier, if you want to remove the rests in the 2nd voice quickly, use the plugin available to do it. Creating the combined part should only take a few minutes once you figure it out.


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## Peter Alexander (Jul 13, 2012)

Though Max Tofone decided not to update the book for Sibelius 7, there may be some good insights in the Street Smart Guide to Sibelius 6 on the Alexander Publishing web site On the home page, click on the Street Smart Guide tab and look at the Contents of the Sibelius 6 book. There are 70+ lessons plus a mini-workbook.


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## Casey Edwards (Jul 13, 2012)

Hey guys, thanks again for all the input! Any more info is more than welcome.


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## snattack (Jul 15, 2012)

Isn't there any plugin that automate the extraction of two parts from one single staff (i.e. Flute 1/2 to 2 separate parts?). I've been looking for years.

Sibelius is great in many ways, but sometimes you just wish they stopped and thought for a while before starting to work (i.e "should be redo the entire layout to Ribbon" OR "should we include the function of connecting two parts to one staff which is extremely common"). I'd go for the second one.

I have a very long "sibelius wish list" I started with stuff that annoys me. But yet, I used Finale, and that's just dangerous using w. music disappearing outside pages and stuff.


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## Daryl (Jul 15, 2012)

snattack @ Sun Jul 15 said:


> Isn't there any plugin that automate the extraction of two parts from one single staff (i.e. Flute 1/2 to 2 separate parts?). I've been looking for years.


There are a few, but they all "belong" to the people who wrote them. AFAIK this function is not possible to program in the Manuscript language, which is why people have programmed their own app. 



snattack @ Sun Jul 15 said:


> Sibelius is great in many ways, but sometimes you just wish they stopped and thought for a while before starting to work (i.e "should be redo the entire layout to Ribbon" OR "should we include the function of connecting two parts to one staff which is extremely common"). I'd go for the second one.


I don't think that the Ribbon was introduced without thought. It may yet turn out to be a winner. I think it is too new to come to a conclusion. In MS Office I actually like the Ribbon, now I've got used to it.

Regarding the suggestion about connection two parts to one score stave, this has been asked for since the invention of Dynamic Parts. Nobody disagrees that it would be a very important function, but it is allegedly a very difficult thing to program, and there were others more important things to do that benefited a larger demographic.




snattack @ Sun Jul 15 said:


> I have a very long "sibelius wish list" I started with stuff that annoys me. But yet, I used Finale, and that's just dangerous using w. music disappearing outside pages and stuff.


I think that all of us find things in all programs that annoy us, and the art is in finding workarounds, as well as just accepting that for the moment things are what they are. :wink:


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## windshore (Jul 15, 2012)

snattack @ 7/14/2012 said:


> Isn't there any plugin that automate the extraction of two parts from one single staff (i.e. Flute 1/2 to 2 separate parts?). I've been looking for years.
> 
> Sibelius is great in many ways, but sometimes you just wish they stopped and thought for a while before starting to work (i.e "should be redo the entire layout to Ribbon" OR "should we include the function of connecting two parts to one staff which is extremely common"). I'd go for the second one.



I empathize with your 2nd statement about tabs etc, but separating 2 parts is remarkably easy. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the problem, either way you set up a 2 part staff, it only takes a matter of a seconds.

I would assume you would keep the parts in separate voices. If so, Filter voice 2, cut (Command/X) and paste into your new part. If they aren't in 2 voices, filter note 2 (Command/ Option / 2 -from QWERTY keyboard) Cut & paste. In this case, any place where both instruments are unison, still selects the right notes to copy. This is literally like a 5 second procedure.... Where's the prob?


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## snattack (Jul 15, 2012)

windshore @ Sun Jul 15 said:


> snattack @ 7/14/2012 said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't there any plugin that automate the extraction of two parts from one single staff (i.e. Flute 1/2 to 2 separate parts?). I've been looking for years.
> ...



The problem is that it isn't dynamic. Everytime changing need to be made in an arrangement or whatever, the copy/pasting need to be done again, and the entire part need to be proof read again.

I don't buy "it's hard to program". It just isn't: it's a chain of logical events that need to be put into action. I can't say why Sibelius haven't yet implemented it, but a guess is that it's just as it is with a lot of other developers: every new version need to look like "a lot" have been re-made (aka Ribbon).

I might start a thread here with the "wish list" and see if other people have solved the problems in some clever way.


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## mducharme (Jul 15, 2012)

I'm going through the process of learning Sibelius from a Finale perspective. By far, the biggest irritation I have with Sibelius is the fact that I cannot change the length of (or delete) a note or rest and have the others move back or forward to compensate. I find a do a lot of tweaking of note lengths and selecting and alt-clicking every time I want to change a note length is severely slowing down my work method. As a result, I'm doing less direct entry into notation software and more writing on paper first before transferring.


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## sbkp (Jul 15, 2012)

mducharme @ Sun Jul 15 said:


> change the length of (or delete) a note or rest and have the others move back or forward to compensate.



Whereas I'd go crazy if my notation program moved notes like that. Can you turn that off in Finale if you don't want it to do that? (In case I have to switch to Finale someday.)

Likewise, I'd never want a DAW to move notes if I adjust a note in a piano roll.


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## mducharme (Jul 15, 2012)

Well, in a DAW it's a lot faster to select things and move backwards than it is in Sibelius.

And no, I don't think you can turn that off in Finale. I've never wanted to, though. I've gotten used to that behavior there, and my working method is somewhat based on it. I suppose if I started with Sibelius it would be easier because I would not be used to doing things in a certain way like that.

Finale only does that within the measure though - the next measure will not move when you delete notes or rests.


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## Casey Edwards (Jul 15, 2012)

Okay guys, I have another one. In conjunction with Harp Pedal Diagrams I also need to give the harpist a short-hand indication on single string switching. I have one B natural and an F sharp. I found the sharp symbol without trouble using the Text tool and the music text font. However, I can't find a natural sign to save my life. I of course found it through the symbols menu, but the defies the purpose I'm trying to achieve here. Also, is there not a Character chart somewhere for these fonts?


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## sbkp (Jul 15, 2012)

Type the natural character as command+7 (on the numeric keypad). Sharp is command+8, flat is command+9. It's the same as how notes use 1-6 (for example in tempo text).

You can also right click when in text-entry mode for a bunch of other options.


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## Casey Edwards (Jul 15, 2012)

sbkp @ Sun Jul 15 said:


> Type the natural character as command+7 (on the numeric keypad). Sharp is command+8, flat is command+9. It's the same as how notes use 1-6 (for example in tempo text).
> 
> You can also right click when in text-entry mode for a bunch of other options.



Dude, I love you as much as one hetero could love another. :wink:


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## windshore (Jul 15, 2012)

when you enter a natural ( or other accidental) in text, use the numeric keyboard. 7 gives you a natural. Best not to use the symbol menu if you can avoid it.

mducharme: If you post or send me an example of exactly what you're trying to do, I can prob show you a quick way to adjust. (Moving a whole passage backward isn't intuitive, but it shouldn't be that much hassle.)


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## sbkp (Jul 15, 2012)

You can also type harp pedaling. alt+cmd+7/8/9 do the equivalents for cmd+7/8/9. That is, they give pedal in the middle (natural), down (sharp), and up (flat), respectively.

There's also a plugin that will check the notes, figure out the pedaling, and make the pedal diagram for you (Add Harp Pedaling). Another plugin will check all the notes against pedal settings you give it, and optionally create the diagram for you (Check Harp Pedaling).



Casey Edwards @ Sun Jul 15 said:


> Dude, I love you as much as one hetero could love another. :wink:



I'll keep that in mind :D


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## Casey Edwards (Jul 15, 2012)

sbkp @ Sun Jul 15 said:


> You can also type harp pedaling. alt+cmd+7/8/9 do the equivalents for cmd+7/8/9. That is, they give pedal in the middle (natural), down (sharp), and up (flat), respectively.
> 
> There's also a plugin that will check the notes, figure out the pedaling, and make the pedal diagram for you (Check Harp Pedaling). Another plugin will check all the notes against pedal settings you give it, and optionally create the diagram for you (Add Harp Pedaling).
> 
> ...



You weren't kidding about the keypad business! This thing is saving me tons of time. Sibelius is becoming a lot more idiomatic for me now. I'm working on a score with very few interruptions as a test. You guys are very helpful. V.I. Control has saved my ass and helped me out so many times! I can promise that as soon as I start making some money I'll be donating to this wonderful place. o-[][]-o


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## MikeH (Jul 15, 2012)

Casey, if you're really enjoying Sibelius I highly suggest you visit this place and give your 2cents:

http://community.avid.com/blogs/avid/ar ... unity.aspx


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## sbkp (Jul 15, 2012)

Casey Edwards @ Sun Jul 15 said:


> You weren't kidding about the keypad business! This thing is saving me tons of time. Sibelius is becoming a lot more idiomatic for me now. I'm working on a score with very few interruptions as a test. You guys are very helpful. V.I. Control has saved my ass and helped me out so many times! I can promise that as soon as I start making some money I'll be donating to this wonderful place. o-[][]-o



Yeah, without the keypad, it's half the program. It was the numeric keypad interface that immediately sold me on Sibelius several years ago. Note entry in every other program I tried was like pulling teeth.

Glad to have helped. I've learned a few things in this thread, as well!


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## Casey Edwards (Jul 15, 2012)

sbkp @ Sun Jul 15 said:


> Casey Edwards @ Sun Jul 15 said:
> 
> 
> > You weren't kidding about the keypad business! This thing is saving me tons of time. Sibelius is becoming a lot more idiomatic for me now. I'm working on a score with very few interruptions as a test. You guys are very helpful. V.I. Control has saved my ass and helped me out so many times! I can promise that as soon as I start making some money I'll be donating to this wonderful place. o-[][]-o
> ...



I do have to add, Finale uses the keypad VERY similarly and I find myself missing some things in Finale and loving a lot of new things in Sibelius. The biggest upside to Sibelius is the magnetic layout. Otherwise, so far, both programs are very similar in nature. My goal is to be able to use both with ease so I can increase my job opportunities.


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## sbkp (Jul 15, 2012)

Magnetic layout is the other half of the program. 

And then dynamic parts is another half.

And everything else makes up the, um, _fourth_ half. :D


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## Casey Edwards (Jul 15, 2012)

sbkp @ Mon Jul 16 said:


> Magnetic layout is the other half of the program.
> 
> And then dynamic parts is another half.
> 
> And everything else makes up the, um, _fourth_ half. :D



Today was my final 'light-bulb' moment of being able to actually get through a score and not google every 10 minutes. I feel comfortable with Sibelius now and I can't wait to continue learning even more.


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## bryla (Jul 16, 2012)

in addition to typing in pedal diagrams 
cmd+(either - or + on the keypad) gives you the foot seperation.


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## Casey Edwards (Jul 16, 2012)

Hey guys, what's the best way to edit how many measures you want on a page/system? In Finale this was super easy by just pushing the down or up arrow on the selected measure and you could move them around however you want.


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## sbkp (Jul 16, 2012)

If you want to put in manual breaks, select a barline and press enter. To force a new page, use cmd+enter. You can also "Keep Bars Together" to prevent Sibelius from auto-adding a break.


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## bryla (Jul 16, 2012)

in the layouts pane (I think since I don't work in sib7 yet) there should be a button for auto-breaks. Here you can set things up to automatically do your layout and modify with what Stefan is doing.


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## sbkp (Jul 16, 2012)

Some people don't use auto breaks at all. I recently started disabling them and prefer it, especially in parts. It's great that it's an option because it can be very helpful in some cases (e.g., a certain number of bars per page, etc).


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## Daryl (Jul 16, 2012)

sbkp @ Mon Jul 16 said:


> Some people don't use auto breaks at all. I recently started disabling them and prefer it, especially in parts. It's great that it's an option because it can be very helpful in some cases (e.g., a certain number of bars per page, etc).


I never use auto breaks, as I always seem to disagree with the "suggestions". :lol: 

D


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## sbkp (Jul 16, 2012)

bryla @ Mon Jul 16 said:


> in addition to typing in pedal diagrams
> cmd+(either - or + on the keypad) gives you the foot seperation.



That's alt+cmd+plus, isn't it?


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## bryla (Jul 16, 2012)

possibly. I do it pr finger sense and not pr mind.

Auto breaks can be useful when dealing with pop-songs on an 8 to the section.

Sure for parts I switch them off always.


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## sbkp (Jul 16, 2012)

bryla @ Mon Jul 16 said:


> possibly. I do it pr finger sense and not pr mind.



I'm like that, too


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