# Mixing and mastering of an orchestral track?



## minimax (Mar 27, 2017)

I heard somewhere that mixing like cutting freqs on instruments at an orchestral track shouldn't be done, how true is this?
Also, what effects plugins do one orchestral track need on instruments, as I use just valhala room reverb for now, and nothing else really?
And, yeah, how do you get loud enough, but not too loud orchestral track?
I am using FL Studio.
I usually use Maximus to raise volume on tracks at end, as I usually work on very low levels mixing.


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## John Busby (Mar 27, 2017)

Hey Minimax
i think you're on the right track, and no, i would say removing frequencies shouldn't be done is a wrong statement.
it's all about getting your music to sound as good as it can to your ears - if that means rolling off everything passed 150hz on a group or cutting mid hi's on strings to get them to sound less harsh, whatever it may be, as long as it sounds good to YOU, that's all that matters!


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## Puzzlefactory (Mar 27, 2017)

I'm by no means an expert but from what I understand your first port of call for getting a mix right is orchestration and dynamics automation.

As for cutting frequencies, I think the issue there is, if you cut too much from an instrument, it won't sound like that instrument anymore. This isn't a problem with synthetic or heavily processed sounds, but will be glaring with (recognisable) aucoustic instruments.


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## MarcusMaximus (Mar 27, 2017)

There's a lot to getting a mix right and no real formula. I would agree that you have to be careful when cutting frequencies from orchestral instruments. I would only really do that if there was an audible problem that needs correcting, not as a matter of course. Some people cut quite a lot in the mids generally and in the lows of high fre. instruments etc. but I don't think that should really be necessary if your orchestration is well balanced. Again, no rules but I would look to issues of instrumentation etc. before adjusting too much EQ. I do sometimes put a low-cut filter on the reverbs that I use but again not always. It depends on how it's sounding and the overall density of the orchestration.

Some light EQ enhancements can have their place to e.g brighten up the strings or add a bit more depth to the low percussion etc. but it's important to go very lightly or you can easily throw the whole balance out. Some of that can also apply to the master bus. Very light use of delay can be used alongside your reverb on some instruments to add another dimension to the ambience/space. Depending on the style of the music, for example if it has a lot of synths and drums etc. I might run the mix through a limiter to make it more punchy. Etc. etc. As a general guideline all your plugins should be used fairly subtly to enhance rather than change the sound of the orchestra. Having said all that I'm certainly no expert either so take it all with a grain of salt!


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## Replicant (Mar 27, 2017)

The way to mix and master any kind of music is that it's really all about the composition, orchestration and arrangement.

I've learned this the hard way and still need to remind myself from time to time.

Keep everything in their own pitch ranges

don't have huge bass drums, low synths, cello/bass stabs all playing at the same time, h_ave good sounds to begin with_, don't overdo it on the doublings, etc.

Do this correctly and the most you'll have to do is adjust the odd fader or MAYBE use a high-pass filter on something. Your track will also wind up louder because you won't be cutting away frequencies and turning things down to "make room" for things so you can get away with leaving more stuff at a louder base volume.

Keep in mind there was a time where the task of automating a fader wasn't even possible. Actually, there was a time when recording music wasn't even possible and people still made great-sounding "mixes".


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## Mike Fox (Mar 28, 2017)

Panning and dynamics are the most important to me. The rest is just icing.


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## dannymc (Mar 29, 2017)

> I'm by no means an expert but from what I understand your first port of call for getting a mix right is orchestration and dynamics automation.



what exactly do you mean by dynamics automation to help creating a more clean mix? still learning all these tricks. 

Danny


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 29, 2017)

mikefox789 said:


> Panning and dynamics are the most important to me. The rest is just icing.



There is so much truth to this. I spent days upon days on panning and volume. And it really pays off, the amount of expression you can add to volume control alone is, quite simply, immeasurable. It's that simple, yet that tricky to get down.


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## Puzzlefactory (Mar 29, 2017)

dannymc said:


> what exactly do you mean by dynamics automation to help creating a more clean mix? still learning all these tricks.
> 
> Danny



I mean "riding the mod wheel"


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## dannymc (Mar 29, 2017)

> I mean "riding the mod wheel"



really? i only use ride the mod wheel to record in dynamics in instruments, how do you use the mod wheel to make your mixes cleaner? 

Danny


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## afterlight82 (Mar 29, 2017)

minimax said:


> I heard somewhere that mixing like cutting freqs on instruments at an orchestral track shouldn't be done, how true is this?
> Also, what effects plugins do one orchestral track need on instruments, as I use just valhala room reverb for now, and nothing else really?
> And, yeah, how do you get loud enough, but not too loud orchestral track?
> I am using FL Studio.
> I usually use Maximus to raise volume on tracks at end, as I usually work on very low levels mixing.



You're thinking of orchestral recording, where one should (in the traditional sense) move microphones and adjust in the room before touching EQ, and ideally one uses EQ as little as possible because of the effect it has on phase. Number one thing is to turn up using headroom rather than a plugin, and use midi automation before compressors. If mixing with synths and big perc high pass filters can sometimes be good (if you listen to the daft punk tron mixes you'll hear a fair bit of the lowest frequencies in the orch was eq'd out against the big synth basses). It depends......


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## rJames (Mar 29, 2017)

Admittedly, I have a tin ear, 2 of them. So I can't mix by, "as long as it sounds good to you, that's all that matters."
Plus, as you learn how to mix, your ears get trained. One thing we all need to do is learn what certain freqs sound like. Put a 5 or 6 band parametric EQ on your master output (don't leave it there. This is just to eat train a bit). Turn up 100 down to 0 to hear what it sounds like. Put it back to where it was. Do the same with 100-300. Then 300-500, 500-2k. On up the spectrum. When you raise the level on any of these zones you are hearing what too much in that range sounds like. You'll begin to recognize these problems in your mix. Eventually you can tweak small amounts to clarify your mix. But you need to know where to tweak when you hear a boomyness or a veil covering an area. 
Of course you can tweak it on the master out but it's better to understand your orch and know where you can go in and tweak tracks to take out a tiny tiny bit of that abundant freq on a few tracks that may be building up in your mix. For instance, some violin samples have unneeded 250-0hz etc. or you could cut a little of some EQ "bump" in certain low drums. Maybe you need less boom and really just want the skin slap (cause you already have a bunch of sub bass from other drums.).


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## Puzzlefactory (Mar 29, 2017)

dannymc said:


> really? i only use ride the mod wheel to record in dynamics in instruments, how do you use the mod wheel to make your mixes cleaner?
> 
> Danny




Recording dynamics in the instruments does make the mix cleaner. 

Like I said in my original post "orchestration and dynamic automation". It's all about making room for everything in the mix. 

So by choosing the right combination of instruments with your orchestration (frequency) and automation of the instrument dynamics (level) you're half way there. Reverb is the final touch.


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## dannymc (Mar 30, 2017)

what i thought you meant was something i thought is done by others. a technique called ducking. where you automate a particular instrument or group of instruments levels/volume to duck down lower in a bell shape at particular moments in a track for example if you wanted the percussion to have more presence in the mix. anyone do this? 

Danny


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## Puzzlefactory (Mar 30, 2017)

You mean sidechaining?


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## Puzzlefactory (Mar 30, 2017)

Ah I see now, you don't mean sifechaining. Although it's a very similar effect. 

I've heard of the technique you're referring to. It's old school mixing . Where the mix engineer "rides the faders" of the desk as the track progresses. 

Personally I think "mod wheel" automation produces a similar result. You make room for certain instruments by lowering the dynamics of other instruments.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 30, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Ah I see now, you don't mean sifechaining. Although it's a very similar effect.
> 
> I've heard of the technique you're referring to. It's old school mixing . Where the mix engineer "rides the faders" of the desk as the track progresses.
> 
> Personally I think "mod wheel" automation produces a similar result. You make room for certain instruments by lowering the dynamics of other instruments.



One of the most powerful tools in the Albion libraries for me is the dynamics slider. They're how I learned to use automation in an expressive way; you can really get a grip on how to blend (or alternately delineate) each instrument to your satisfaction. My music kept getting more and more personal through use of that slider, and applied what I learned to similar modulation options in both sample libraries and synthesizers.


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## Puzzlefactory (Mar 30, 2017)

Indeed, although it's not just Albions that have it (although that is where I coined the term "dynamics" from).


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 30, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Indeed, although it's not just Albions that have it (although that is where I coined the term "dynamics" from).



You knew what I meant, my friend.


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## Joram (Mar 30, 2017)

minimax said:


> I heard somewhere that mixing like cutting freqs on instruments at an orchestral track shouldn't be done, how true is this?


Untrue. Do whatever is needed to make it sound good. If you are a real purist, you would like to have a perfect recording path with only some microphones, preamps and a recorder. Everything you put extra in the chain would influence the sound and purists think that is bad. In the real world there is no perfect room and that is what causes most trouble. 
When it comes to VI, there is a big chance you need to tweak here an there. Don't overdo. If you have a good library you probably don't need much eq, just a couple of dB here and there should work when things are annoying. So keep in mind: do whatever is need to make it sound good.



minimax said:


> Also, what effects plugins do one orchestral track need on instruments, as I use just valhala room reverb for now, and nothing else really?


For composing an orchestral track you don't need too many reverbs. One or two reverbs is ok. 



minimax said:


> And, yeah, how do you get loud enough, but not too loud orchestral track?
> I am using FL Studio.
> I usually use Maximus to raise volume on tracks at end, as I usually work on very low levels mixing.


There is a little trick: if you're average level is -20dB below 0dBFs (that is full scale on a digital meter) you'll be fine most of the time. So put all the faders on zero and make a balance with the instrument master volume. Be careful with limiters and compressors when composing or arranging. It is better to make a good steady mix before you start plugging in limiters and compressors and other stuff.


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## dannymc (Mar 30, 2017)

> There is a little trick: if you're average level is -20dB below 0dBFs (that is full scale on a digital meter) you'll be fine most of the time. So put all the faders on zero and make a balance with the instrument master volume. Be careful with limiters and compressors when composing or arranging. It is better to make a good steady mix before you start plugging in limiters and compressors and other stuff.



would you say that if you get all your levels right, EQ and compress where required that all you really need on your output bus is a good limiter to bring everything up? i hear people talking about putting exciters, and multiband compressors on their output bus.

i've watched tutorials on Ozone and to my ears those presets that composers slap on just make the tracks sound over processed and unnatural and seem to actually add mud that wasn't there. it sounds loud but to me there is a big difference between loudness and clarity. or maybe they are just not very good at using the plug in.

Danny


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