# Cubase Disable/Enable Template: Pros vs Cons?



## jemu999 (Aug 29, 2016)

Hey guys,

*1. *Im very interested in the idea of Cubase Enable/Disable large template. Can those of you who currently use or have used this setup tell me about any Pros or Cons???

Long save times? Large session files? etc. 

*2.* Ive heard Cubase doesn't use multi-cores well on a Mac. Im getting a 12-core 3.46 (5,1) with 128gb ram, and am concerned that this won't work properly anyhow. 

Thus, the other option is upgrading to VE Pro 6, and using Disable/Enable feature there.

I really want to migrate to a single computer setup, using slaves now. Any help, thoughts, experiences are greatly appreciated!

Thanks!


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## utopia (Aug 29, 2016)

Hi,
I'm running a similar setup with a 6-core vader mac pro, 64 ram, ssd's in a multidock. The concept of a single template with disabled tracks is very appealing to me, no cons here. The tracks load up very quickly when I need them.
Unfortunately I'm having performance issues with Cubase which I'm yet to figure out how to fix. Might be a cubase/mac thing. They are described in more details (+video) in this thread. Hope that helps


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## InLight-Tone (Aug 30, 2016)

I've been using it for a bit and love it. I work with individual Kontakt instances all instrument tracks. The beauty of it is is that none of the tracks, except my groups and sends show up in the mixer until I activate them. 

I built a 1000 tracks template or so and my session files are around 250MB each. Save times are around 5-10 seconds, so I turn OFF auto-save as I'm meticulous about saving anyways.

I went through my libraries and put what I was most interested in using into the template so it's in my face so to speak, still there is a bit too much there but no worries as it's not taking any resources.

One thing I noticed is that I have multiple expression maps piled up as dupes, I will have to rebuild this thing at some point and clean it up, but it functions well and smoothly.

One drawback is that I have a lot of folder tracks for organization and there is currently no way to hide them so they clutter it up a bit. But hey, one modest computer, huge template everything routed properly and ready, activate and go. BTW, I'm still running on platter drives instead of SSD or better PCI-SSD ot whatever they are called, that would be the icing on the cake.

As Alex said, game changer...


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## jemu999 (Aug 30, 2016)

utopia said:


> Hi,
> I'm running a similar setup with a 6-core vader mac pro, 64 ram, ssd's in a multidock. The concept of a single template with disabled tracks is very appealing to me, no cons here. The tracks load up very quickly when I need them.
> Unfortunately I'm having performance issues with Cubase which I'm yet to figure out how to fix. Might be a cubase/mac thing. They are described in more details (+video) in this thread. Hope that helps



Thanks for the reply utopia. This the concern with Mac/Cubase. I think its an issue with Cubases use of multi-threads/multi-cores. Hence, some have recommended using VEPro within the same computer which has a much more efficient use of the cores. But that kind makes things much more complicated with routing and such.



InLight-Tone said:


> I've been using it for a bit and love it. I work with individual Kontakt instances all instrument tracks. The beauty of it is is that none of the tracks, except my groups and sends show up in the mixer until I activate them.



Hey Inlight-tone, thanks for your input. Are you using a MAC?


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## InLight-Tone (Aug 30, 2016)

No, I'm on Windows. It seems there are issues on Mac from the grumbles I hear...


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## Kejero (Aug 31, 2016)

InLight-Tone said:


> I built a 1000 tracks template or so and my session files are around 250MB each. Save times are around 5-10 seconds, so I turn OFF auto-save as I'm meticulous about saving anyways.
> 
> I went through my libraries and put what I was most interested in using into the template so it's in my face so to speak, still there is a bit too much there but no worries as it's not taking any resources.



I did the same thing, though currently my master template is about 4000 tracks, and the file is 1.3GB. Takes about 5 or 10 seconds to save an "empty" project. I do have auto-backups every 15 minutes, which is a nuisance but unfortunately still necessary, although C8.5 has probably been the most stable version for me in years.

Other than dealing with large project files, and the long-ish saving times that come with them, I can't really think of any drawbacks. These disabled tracks have changed everything for me. I used to be the world's slowest composer. My workflow has now easily been sped up 2-fold, which means I'm now definitely a faster composer than my grandmother.


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## stigc56 (Aug 31, 2016)

Kejero said:


> I did the same thing, though currently my master template is about 4000 tracks, and the file is 1.3GB. Takes about 5 or 10 seconds to save an "empty" project. I do have auto-backups every 15 minutes, which is a nuisance but unfortunately still necessary, although C8.5 has probably been the most stable version for me in years.
> 
> Other than dealing with large project files, and the long-ish saving times that come with them, I can't really think of any drawbacks. These disabled tracks have changed everything for me. I used to be the world's slowest composer. My workflow has now easily been sped up 2-fold, which means I'm now definitely a faster composer than my grandmother.


I think the only thing in this disabled track setup that we're missing, is the option to be able to hide all disabled tracks. I can't imagine how you would be organized with a template of 4000 tracks! I have a project with 120 midi-tracks pointing to around 30 VI's running local and on 2 slaves and I think I'm using far too much time to navigate between different groups of instruments, return audio channels from VEPro 6, the VI's and so on.
But the moment disabled tracks can be hidden, disabled AND enabled without to much trouble of lost KS maps I will certainly consider them although I don't quite understand how we are going to deal with VEPro 6 and disabled tracks.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Aug 31, 2016)

The main reason I don't use a disabled template in Cubase is that I don't wanna have to wait for 5 minutes for everything to load and unload every time I move on to a different cue. I am, however, now using a largely disabled template in VEP so that I can get it all on 1 machine. Basically a core template with disabled "modules" for me to load. The way in which this differs from disabled in Cubase is that in the morning I just load up all of the modules I'm using for whatever project I'm working on that day. So between cues there's no reloading.


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## 5Lives (Aug 31, 2016)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> The main reason I don't use a disabled template in Cubase is that I don't wanna have to wait for 5 minutes for everything to load and unload every time I move on to a different cue. I am, however, now using a largely disabled template in VEP so that I can get it all on 1 machine. Basically a core template with disabled "modules" for me to load. The way in which this differs from disabled in Cubase is that in the morning I just load up all of the modules I'm using for whatever project I'm working on that day. So between cues there's no reloading.


Need to figure out how to do this set up in Logic, maybe using track presets from the library.


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## Kejero (Sep 1, 2016)

stigc56 said:


> I think the only thing in this disabled track setup that we're missing, is the option to be able to hide all disabled tracks.


There are various ways for hiding tracks. The one I most often use is 'show only tracks with events'. When I need to find a new track, I usually use the search. Really, finding tracks and staying organized (I use plenty of folders of course) is no trouble at all.


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## ModalRealist (Sep 1, 2016)

I've nearly finished migrating to an Enable/Disable setup. It's definitely the best form of pre-made template I've tried using. All the setup benefit of a template, with practically no load bloat (I'm using SSDs on Windows).

*However...* There is one fairly significant disadvantage: maximum potential RAM use.

Basically, any active Kontakt instance takes ~70-100mb of RAM when it's turned on. That's *before* loading a patch. Since I tend to use one-track-per-articulation, this means that if I were to activate all my tracks, I'd have 20GB of RAM usage just from Kontakt!

For all the hate it gets, this is one case where Play wins big time. The per-instance RAM load is negligible, and samples are shared intelligently between instances (in Kontakt they appear not to be).

So my Hollywood Orchestra stuff is particularly well-suited to this new design of template. I'm going to do a couple of real-use experiments with my Kontakt samples to see whether my current workflow is sustainable - e.g. perhaps by sometimes freezing enabled racks to recoup RAM - or whether I'll have to switch to one-score-instrument-per-track with Expression Maps.

In any case, this new design of template is, to me, the best design I've come across. I have 32GB of RAM, but no slaves, and frankly that is not enough to run a big template unless you really stick to just a legato patch and a staccato patch per instrument. Even then, if you're running a full contemporary orchestra in terms of instrument numbers, e.g. with Flute 1, 2, 3 having their own unique samples, you'd be surprised how quick the RAM fills up.


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## stigc56 (Sep 1, 2016)

Kejero said:


> There are various ways for hiding tracks. The one I most often use is 'show only tracks with events'. When I need to find a new track, I usually use the search. Really, finding tracks and staying organized (I use plenty of folders of course) is no trouble at all.


I know all the ways of hiding tracks in Cubase. One of the problems with the existing possibilities is that you can't have ANY midi information on a track if you want to use the command you mention. This means all my carefully balanced midi tracks to my VSL libraries, can't have initial midi-parts with values to set MIRx balance, volume, expression and so on, because if they have, the command "show only tracks with events", will "unhide them".
Believe me I have been through them all programming my Lemur interface on iPad.
And I would like to see a KS for open/close folder, when a folder is selected, that would be nice.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Sep 1, 2016)

stigc56 said:


> I know all the ways of hiding tracks in Cubase. One of the problems with the existing possibilities is that you can't have ANY midi information on a track if you want to use the command you mention. This means all my carefully balanced midi tracks to my VSL libraries, can't have initial midi-parts with values to set MIRx balance, volume, expression and so on, because if they have, the command "show only tracks with events", will "unhide them".
> Believe me I have been through them all programming my Lemur interface on iPad.
> And I would like to see a KS for open/close folder, when a folder is selected, that would be nice.



Why not just use the data by cursor or data by locator commands? That's why I do when I only want to see the tracks I'm working on while still having the midi blips at the beginning of the project on all tracks.


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## Kejero (Sep 2, 2016)

Yeah, I used to have those midi bits at the start of every track too, but I've abandoned that approach. I found that in practice every piece needs it's own balance so I ended up changing these more often than not. I guess Gerhard's suggestions is the only solution if you want to hide tracks. 'Hide disabled tracks' would be a nice addition.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Sep 2, 2016)

Kejero said:


> Yeah, I used to have those midi bits at the start of every track too, but I've abandoned that approach. I found that in practice every piece needs it's own balance so I ended up changing these more often than not. I guess Gerhard's suggestions is the only solution if you want to hide tracks. 'Hide disabled tracks' would be a nice addition.



I've sort of abandoned it as well but for troubleshooting reasons. I get performance spike issues with all of the chase messages so what I do is keep all the midi bits disabled so it doesn't chase when I'm working and then if I ever want to reset my template ("trash the preferences") I just enable them, make a move in the transport so it sends it all out, and then disable them again.


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## g.c. (Sep 5, 2016)

ModalRealist said:


> I've nearly finished migrating to an Enable/Disable setup. It's definitely the best form of pre-made template I've tried using. All the setup benefit of a template, with practically no load bloat (I'm using SSDs on Windows).
> 
> *However...* There is one fairly significant disadvantage: maximum potential RAM use.
> 
> ...


Have you used the "purge" function with Kontakt?


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## Rasmus Hartvig (Sep 6, 2016)

ModalRealist said:


> Basically, any active Kontakt instance takes ~70-100mb of RAM when it's turned on. That's *before* loading a patch. Since I tend to use one-track-per-articulation, this means that if I were to activate all my tracks, I'd have 20GB of RAM usage just from Kontakt!



Sounds like your Kontakt database is filled with stuff. That can easily increase per instance RAM use. I'm running at less than 40 Mb per instance with an empty database.
Check this out for some tips in this specific issue (the rest of the articles are great as well)


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## WorshipMaestro (Sep 6, 2016)

I'm surprised that no one has raised the option of freezing tracks in this discussion. I, too, have moved away from the VEP/slave computer paradigm in favor of having my template loaded but disabled. After working on a track, once it's to the point of being workable, even if not absolutely finished, I freeze it and move on to the next part. Freezing does the same thing as disabling in terms of system usage and only takes a few seconds to render/unrender/reload the VI.

I find doing my work this way much quicker than routing to VEP and troubleshooting slave connections. Everything is clean, on the same computer in a single program (Cubase 8.5.20) and works well for me, no matter how large the project.


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## ModalRealist (Sep 6, 2016)

g.c. said:


> Have you used the "purge" function with Kontakt?



I have tried, but I'm not a huge fan, because over time the RAM usage slowly creeps up as you load the samples back in, and this makes me nervous (because often it starts climbing towards the limit with alarming speed).



Rasmus Hartvig said:


> Sounds like your Kontakt database is filled with stuff. That can easily increase per instance RAM use. I'm running at less than 40 Mb per instance with an empty database.
> Check this out for some tips in this specific issue (the rest of the articles are great as well)



Okay, wow! Thanks for linking this. I've just spent half an hour reading this through and fiddling in Kontakt and... well! First of all, my Kontakt memory usage before loading samples has halved. That's around 2GB of RAM that just freed up! _And, _I have also now adjusted my Kontakt memory buffer. From 60kb down to 6kb. My Berlin Strings V1 Legato patch just fell from 0.97GB of RAM to ~425mb! And the rest of the patches have lost even more weight. Flute legato patches are weighing just 17mb in sample usage. I'm running all my samples off of an SSD, and they're playing back just fine. I've also toned down some super-high voice counts, which has slashed RAM in a few places. Anyway, thank you (and thanks to ISW for the tutorials!). Unbelievable improvement, honestly.



WorshipMaestro said:


> I'm surprised that no one has raised the option of freezing tracks in this discussion.



I used to do this in C7. Only just updated to 8.5 a few weeks ago. I didn't realise one could also freeze instrument tracks! Definitely going to take advantage of this if/as/when I approach maximum RAM.


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## 5Lives (Sep 6, 2016)

Once you freeze though, you can't access the MIDI right? So if you wanted to write another part by looking at the previous MIDI?


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## WorshipMaestro (Sep 6, 2016)

5Lives said:


> Once you freeze though, you can't access the MIDI right? So if you wanted to write another part by looking at the previous MIDI?


No, but to do further editing you just unfreeze. It only takes a few seconds. If you want to copy the MIDI track to use some of it's data on another track/instrument just copy and past before freezing, or unfreeze, copy and paste, then refreeze. Freezing unloads the VI, thus saving resources.


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## ZeroZero (Oct 16, 2016)

Test using EW symphonic orchestra Platinium - full template.

Templates all use MIDI tracks (not instrument tracks) and one instance of Play shared by different tracks, Keyswitch Multies loaded. Also included Omnisphere, Keyscape and BFD3 which for some reason will not freeze. 

Cubase Win 10 64, 16 gig six core Intel i7 5820, X99A mobo

1 ] With no apps running except this browser 29 % memory. 12% CPU


2] With Only Cubase loaded (and this browser) 30% RAM, 13% CPU

3] East West Orchestra template no disabled tracks: 3 minute 15 second load time CPU 20% Memory 90%

4] East West Orchestra template all EW disabled tracks: 1 minute 45 second load time CPU 20% Memory 66%

5] East West Orchestra template all EW frozen tracks: 1 minute 45 second load time CPU 15% Memory 59%



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