# How To Score Feature-Length Films (technical/process question)



## YoungComposer (Feb 15, 2013)

Hi,

I recently got a gig scoring a mid-level documentary that is rather well-produced. The current run time is about 1 hour and 45 minutes from beginning to end.

How do I compose in Cubase for a video that is so long? Do I import the whole video or rather cut the film into pieces and score each?

What is your process for longer films?


----------



## impressions (Feb 15, 2013)

I have little experience with features, but on my first one i was on XP with very minimal RAM, so i had to cut down the quality of the film, split it to three, and then work on them separately.

after that was done, I exported everything to wav(there was a glitch in synch also, I don't know why) and saw the whole thing on maximum quality to see if it works.

you don't need to worry about RAM though, because you just close the video window when you export-someone here told me about that, and it saved me a lot of future frustrations.

so, my recommendations is work on best quality, and if RAM is an issue, close it down and work on the part separately until its done on WAV.


----------



## jaredcowing (Feb 15, 2013)

While I don't have tons of experience with longer projects, I find it's much easier to break it up into smaller project files, both for system resources (loading less instruments into RAM assuming the instrumentation changes from cue to cue) and psychological reasons (much easier to tackle a big project if you aren't staring at the whole un-scored film in panic).
Also, it just becomes unwieldy to navigate something that long, zooming in and out and scrolling around- especially if you're limited on system resources like I am and navigating becomes a rather choppy experience on resource-draining projects.

Another problem I run into in Logic is that of tempo changes- I usually have alot of tempo changes in my music, and if the project gets too long, there's greater chance that I'll need to adjust the tempo in the middle of the project and screw up how the music is aligned with the picture in later scenes. There may be an easy solution to this that I haven't picked up yet, though (would love to hear from others about this).

Similarly, if the editor decides to make changes and you get a new cut with different timings, shifting it all around in one big project file can be a pain in the butt. Smaller project files are just more flexible for me.


----------



## dubdecember (Feb 15, 2013)

After I spot the film and have decided where music should go, I cut the film up into individual cues (exception is where cues follow each other so closely that context is crucial). This could be over 30 - 40 individual .mov files. I use quicktime pro to do this.

Then I have an individual project for each cue. I try to begin with the cues that will require me to come up with much of the colors for the score. That way I've built most of my template for the rest of the cues, and can just write without designing/developing too many more sounds.

I also have one project that contains the .mov of the whole film, and I drop the most current wavs in there at the appropriate timecode. This allows me to preview the film for the director without loading project after project, and also gives us both the opportunity to see the context of the cues. If there are cues where it seems that a tiny bit of noodling could acknowledge a director's note, I'll make a note and we will go to those session individually after we have addressed the film as a whole.


----------



## YoungComposer (Feb 15, 2013)

Yup, I guess I'll have to cut it up and I think I'll do this cue by cue. The idea of placing them into a "master" project with the full video is also a great diea.

Thanks!!


----------



## Daniel James (Feb 15, 2013)

When I have a film, if its split into reels (normally a reel is about 10 minutes) I will just have 1 reel per project. If they film comes as one long file I will either do a project for each cue or split it into segments of 10 mins or so (maybe longer or shorter if a cue cuts midway between reels)

Then I will take those cues and sync them to a master project (as bounced tracks) to make sure its all working. Then deliver to the director based on how he wants it delivered (some want one file, some want cues, some want stems etc)

-DJ


----------



## Ryan (Feb 15, 2013)

I have scored a few documentaries last year in Cubase. What I have been told to do is to first "spot" the film for where the music should be, then save each cue (1m1-1m2-1m3 etc) as individual templates. 

And when you are done, you could ether load in the midi-files from your other MX-cues or as Daniel James describe; "Then I will take those cues and sync them to a master project (as bounced tracks) to make sure its all working. "

My last movie I didn't do this at all. Then I have one master file that I work with. No other projects etc. But this computer is a monster, so it could take it. 

Best of luck!

Ryan

I do exactly the same with longer movies.


----------



## brubru (Feb 15, 2013)

If the film isn't cut into reels, you can either cut it up yourself, or leave it as one big file. I would probably leave it as they gave it you. It's probably more trouble then it is worth. As long as the video codec being used doesn't use a lot of computer power to playback it shouldn't matter how big the actual file is. For example: a quicktime encoded in H264 where the file size is 2gb is a lot more taxing on your computer then a quicktime encoded in DVPRO that is 16gb. At least, that has always been my experience.

Whether you are working to reels or a whole film, make sure the time code in your DAW matches the timecode burn on screen. It will make your life a lot easier when you are trying to assemble a master session with all of the cues from the film.


----------



## YoungComposer (Feb 16, 2013)

I suspect it will be sent to me as one big file. I'll cut into ~10 minute videos to work on it in smaller portions. Good tip on the time-code, I think when you cut up video it would be very hard to put it back together without it.


----------



## Ed (Feb 17, 2013)

Personally what I've ended up doing is having as many project files as you have reels. If they have gone nuts and given you loads and loads and dont want to tell them to change that, then I'd combine 2 or 3 into one project file. A project file per cue for me was insane and its horrendously difficult to keep track of things. A single project file to me is not good either because of how small changes can make a huge difference later on in regards to timing. If there's a need for a select cue to need its own project file, such as a track that needs very a different kind of music I'll open a new one for that

Thats how I've been working anyway.


----------



## Brian Ralston (Feb 17, 2013)

YoungComposer @ Sat Feb 16 said:


> I suspect it will be sent to me as one big file. I'll cut into ~10 minute videos to work on it in smaller portions. Good tip on the time-code, I think when you cut up video it would be very hard to put it back together without it.



If you need to "cut up" digital video files you are provided with into smaller pieces to score...then you are doing it all wrong. 

You should not have to cut anything. 

Just reference different project files to the same scoring video (reels...whatever you are given) where every project cue has a different sequence start time within that vid file...according to where it was spotted to be.


----------



## gsilbers (Feb 17, 2013)

dont cut up the video. 

you can "cut it" in your DAW if cubase has that feature. you chop up the region so you start at halfway if you want. 
but dont edit in quitime/fcp and export smaller video files.


----------



## YoungComposer (Feb 17, 2013)

I guess I won't be cutting it up I can leave it as a whole anyway and just mentally split up into smaller cues and work within Cubase


----------



## MoonFlare (Feb 18, 2013)

Brian Ralston @ Sun Feb 17 said:


> If you need to "cut up" digital video files you are provided with into smaller pieces to score...then you are doing it all wrong.



This statement is of course not true.


----------



## midphase (Feb 18, 2013)

Actually, it is true. Cutting a video file undermines the whole idea of working with a "locked" video.

Brian is totally right in this case...but that's not to say that many composers aren't doing it "all wrong" anyway.


----------



## RiffWraith (Feb 18, 2013)

MoonFlare @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Brian Ralston @ Sun Feb 17 said:
> 
> 
> > If you need to "cut up" digital video files you are provided with into smaller pieces to score...then you are doing it all wrong.
> ...



Actually, MF is correct - that is not true. 

Whether or not you cut up your vid for a feature film, has no bearing on whether or not 'you are doing it all wrong'. 

If you get locked picture and cut up the vid, the picture is still locked; you aren't changing the timing, nor the duration of any part of any of the scenes in the vid. Assuming of course, you cut properly, and do not accidentaly slice out any frames. You can cut the vid into (approx) 20 min. segments, and that would almost be like working with a/b reels. 

Besides, how often do you get a vid of locked pic? Sometimes, sure. Most of the time tho, the composer starts scoring while the film is still being cut, and therefore starts working with pic that has not been locked.

Cheers.


----------



## gsilbers (Feb 18, 2013)

RiffWraith @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> MoonFlare @ Mon Feb 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Brian Ralston @ Sun Feb 17 said:
> ...



ive run into instances where the export of QT to a new format changed the duration. 

there is just more chances of having technical issues. of course you can load it up on your DAW (also, pro tools for verification) and see if the time code doesnt drift. 

also running into problems where the creatives want to add music to a scene previously didnt have and happens to be within 2 different parts. 

and of course ,.. there is no lock cut. i have not gotten a locked cut in ages...
its always a lock cut #6 and so no. 

so 2 days later you can get another lock cut and u have to spend time cutting the video again when its just easier to start the video on your daw much later. a longer video will not strain your computer. the codec will.


----------



## midphase (Feb 18, 2013)

Yup, once again Brian and GSilbers are correct.

There is absolutely no reason for anyone to create separate movie files in order to score music...no reason whatsoever.

If you insist on doing it, I'm not trying to stop you...but you are doing it wrong!


----------



## RiffWraith (Feb 18, 2013)

midphase @ Tue Feb 19 said:


> Yup, once again Brian and GSilbers are correct.



MMmmm...nope!



gsilbers @ Tue Feb 19 said:


> ive run into instances where the export of QT to a new format changed the duration.



Well, you dont do it that way. You wouldn't export to a new format with a new codec just to change the duration, or cut the vid into smaller segments.



gsilbers @ Tue Feb 19 said:


> also running into problems where the creatives want to add music to a scene previously didnt have and happens to be within 2 different parts.



Not quite sure I follow the end of you sentence, but there really shouldnt be a problem.



gsilbers @ Tue Feb 19 said:


> and of course ,.. there is no lock cut. i have not gotten a locked cut in ages...
> its always a lock cut #6 and so no.
> 
> so 2 days later you can get another lock cut and u have to spend time cutting the video again when its just easier to start the video on your daw much later. a longer video will not strain your computer. the codec will.



True - having to cut the video again might be a pain, but if you get a new vid with changes at let's say, 30 min, you now have to worry about the rest of your project - whereas if you had seperate projects for the rest of the film, you wouldn't have to touch those.

Look - I am not saying that cutting up the vid is right, nor am I saying it's wrong. It all comes down to how you want to work, and as long as you get done what needs to get done, than that's fine.

But what I *am* saying, is that it is wrong to tell people that 'they are doing it wrong' if they do choose to cut up the vid.


----------



## Jimbo 88 (Feb 18, 2013)

I cut my long form scoring projects all the time. Saying that cutting them up is "doing it wrong" is completely false.

I receive my QuickTime Files with burnt in Time code. I cut up TV shows between commercial breaks and films into 10-15 minute reels. 

When I am done composing and have an approved music score I bounce down my music to stems for the final mix. Each reel or segment has a Time Code Offset so when I export my stems to an OMF file it can be loaded or get imported into a Protools session in the correct place.

I have been doing this for years with little trouble.


----------



## midphase (Feb 18, 2013)

It's a real sad state of affairs when guidelines for a professional industry workflow which have been around for well over a decade and agreed upon by the vast majority of post production supervisors get debated ad nauseam around here.

Then again...it is the nature of the internets isn't it?


----------



## Jimbo 88 (Feb 18, 2013)

midphase @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> It's a real sad state of affairs when guidelines for a professional industry workflow which have been around for well over a decade and agreed upon by the vast majority of post production supervisors get debated ad nauseam around here.
> 
> Then again...it is the nature of the internets isn't it?





Really?? What was technology like 10 years ago and how does that apply today? Every time I have a job I call up the audio mixer and ask how he would like me to deliver the music. I use to deliver a DAT tape, then Tascam DA 88, now an OMF.

So it is a sad state of affairs when someone has a different work flow than someone else?

scary


----------



## Brian Ralston (Feb 18, 2013)

I had a response all typed out and then thought...why bother? Everyone here already has the correct answers. :roll: 

There is a right way and a wrong way...and most of the guys here are describing the wrong way as being an acceptable alternative. And it is not. But I guess they will find that out one day when their film opportunities grow to be bigger than what they can handle and they crash and burn, ruining their reputation as a professional film composer. No worries. Hollywood will make it quick and relatively painless as they see you and your 20 little QTs to the door. 

o[])


----------



## Jimbo 88 (Feb 19, 2013)

Brian Ralston @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> I had a response all typed out and then thought...why bother? Everyone here already has the correct answers. :roll:
> 
> There is a right way and a wrong way...and most of the guys here are describing the wrong way as being an acceptable alternative. And it is not. But I guess they will find that out one day when their film opportunities grow to be bigger than what they can handle and they crash and burn, ruining their reputation as a professional film composer. No worries. Hollywood will make it quick and relatively painless as they see you and your 20 little QTs to the door.
> 
> o[])




Yes there is a right way and a wrong way. The right way is to meet your deadline, with the music the way the client wants it, how they want it. How you get to that point is matter of opinion. But, to say things like "cutting the video undermines picture lock" is false and indication some of you have not been exposed to a larger technical side of syncing to picture.

Nobody ever said anything about 20 little QTs. Obviously you do not understand the process that others use.


----------



## MoonFlare (Feb 19, 2013)

RiffWraith @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Look - I am not saying that cutting up the vid is right, nor am I saying it's wrong. It all comes down to how you want to work, and as long as you get done what needs to get done, than that's fine.
> 
> But what I *am* saying, is that it is wrong to tell people that 'they are doing it wrong' if they do choose to cut up the vid.



I agree!




Brian Ralston @ Tue Feb 19 said:


> I had a response all typed out and then thought...why bother? Everyone here already has the correct answers. :roll:
> 
> There is a right way and a wrong way...and most of the guys here are describing the wrong way as being an acceptable alternative. And it is not. But I guess they will find that out one day when their film opportunities grow to be bigger than what they can handle and they crash and burn, ruining their reputation as a professional film composer. No worries. Hollywood will make it quick and relatively painless as they see you and your 20 little QTs to the door.



Wow, you're arrogant!


----------



## brubru (Feb 19, 2013)

Clearly everyone has there own way of doing things. and rightly so. if it works for you, good. I work with what was given to me and don't chop up a QT into smaller files. Though, if you choose to do that, I wouldn't say it is wrong. 

It's only wrong if you don't deliver on time and if if what you deliver is a mess. And, if it is a mess, chances are the engineer or assistant engineer from the dub is going to call you and tell you you gave them a mess. And then you will learn to never deliver a mess again.


----------



## RiffWraith (Feb 19, 2013)

Hi Brian,



Brian Ralston @ Tue Feb 19 said:


> I had a response all typed out and then thought...why bother? Everyone here already has the correct answers. :roll:
> 
> There is a right way and a wrong way...and most of the guys here are describing the wrong way as being an acceptable alternative. And it is not. But I guess they will find that out one day when their film opportunities grow to be bigger than what they can handle and they crash and burn, ruining their reputation as a professional film composer. No worries. Hollywood will make it quick and relatively painless as they see you and your 20 little QTs to the door.



Not sure where you are coming from with this; Hollywood is not going to "see anyone to the door" because they work a specific way. You seem to be saying something along the lines of, a movie studio exec loves the score I composed for x-movie, loves the fact that I met the deadline, and has confidence that I have a long and prosperous career ahead of me. He then finds out that instead of loading the entire film as one file in my sequencer and scoring to that, I cut the digitial file into 20 QT movies, and scored to that instead. He then says, "that composer did WHAT?!?!? He is never working in this town again!!!" That's just, well, silly. 

Please let me try to explain something. What you are about to read is not based on conjecture, research I have done, nor information found on the internet. It is based on real experience.

People who work on films get the reels delivered to them in a/b reels. I can explain what those are if need be; basically they are segments of the film that are approx 2000 ft (usually 1-200 ft less). The amount of reels would vary; a good rough estimate would be to say that a film would typically have around six a/b reels. Each has a head pop, and a tail pop for sync purposes. The head pop is exactly two seconds before the FFOA (1st frame of action), and the tail pop is exactly two seconds after the LFOA. These a/b reels are what the sound people (supervising sound editor, dial editor, music editor, composer, etc.) work with to create the sound and music for the film. I know this how? I used to provide the aforementioned people with elements to work with; making elements for people to work with is what I did for a living for the better part of 14 years. I worked on the smallest, lowest budget film(s) you could possibly imagine, to major blockbuster features. First, it was a telecine of workprint and mag to video tape (3/4" primarily, sometimes SVHS...Howard Shore got Super 8 ), then it was Lightworks outputs to video, then Avid outputs to video. Then, came digital files, slowly but surely replacing video tape. When the switch was made to dig files; the sound dept was still cutting to a/b reels; composers were still scoring to a/b reels. Nobody had the entire film as one file.

Now, that was as of '07 - I am not so cocky to say that what I say say still stands; things might have changed. But I dont think that they have. I still think that everyone - including composers - works with a/b reels. I have a number of music editor freinds that still work in the film industry; I can ask them if need be. In the meantime - why doesn't someone go get Hans, and ask him how he works. Does he work in a/b reels, or the entire film as one? My bet is he says a/b reels.

Cheers.


----------



## Tanuj Tiku (Feb 19, 2013)

This is how I score:

* The film comes split into Reels - usually between 7 and 9

* All Reels are marked with Time code.

* Unless, the cues are very close to each other or related somehow, I almost always have a different session per cue - This is because the template will be modified with various settings which may or may not apply to the other cue. This is also because I am mostly mixing as I go.

* Its easier to split everything up and then stitch it back together.

* For Presentations - I will prepare a new session where the music will be mixed with the rough dialogue and/or SFX

* Even if you only have one large film, its better to split it - thats what I do anyway.

* You can then stitch everything together using Broadcast Wave chunk enabled to sync everything. Just move the file to origin and you are done!

*Each cue will need to be over all balanced for presentation anyway.

* You should always name cues and make a chart which is colour coded which you can move around to your team on the cloud. This way everyone knows whats happening and what is the status of various cues including remarks about changes.

Of course all of this happens after the spotting is done and such a sheet will always be changing with new ideas and changes.

Here is a little image file to see how I did a small work chart. I had a few others about the music as well and a personal diary which is unique to each movie I will score even as an additional composer. I like to make notes.

Link: http://www.tanuj-tiku.com/Rush.jpg (www.tanuj-tiku.com/Rush.jpg)

Best,

Tanuj.


----------



## Brian Ralston (Feb 19, 2013)

RiffWraith @ Tue Feb 19 said:


> Then, came digital files, slowly but surely replacing video tape. When the switch was made to dig files; the sound dept was still cutting to a/b reels; composers were still scoring to a/b reels. Nobody had the entire film as one file.



No one is saying that. I guess you are also not really understanding the point. A/B reels had a lot more to do with visual edits and the technical aspects of transitioning cut/fades to film prints than they did for sound. These were needed outputs for fading one scene into another onto an existing film print. Kodak doesn't even make film any more. 

But your example just proved my point actually. Thank you. It is not about having the movie in one big file. Most films are delivered in reels which are indeed separate files. The point is...(and the reason post sound in your experience also worked in A/B reels at that time)...is you do not work with anything different than WHAT YOUR POST SUPERVISOR GAVE YOU. Everyone in Post has the exact same files/renders. You do not go off and re-render or recreate new files to sync with when that is not what everyone in post (post house, sound designer, mixers, ADR, foley) is working with. You are asking for trouble. Every DAW any pro uses has incredibly simple ways to start sequences with measure 1 for a cue at any timecode in any video file. But I guess if some guys can not figure out how to do that because they don't have the experience or ability to read a manual...they can continue to compose to large project files where 2m6 starts on measure 758 and 2m7 starts on measure 921..and their conductor track has 20 tempos changes to try to hit sync points.


----------



## midphase (Feb 19, 2013)

MoonFlare @ Tue Feb 19 said:


> Wow, you're arrogant!



Wow...you are ARROGANT for insisting on a workaround done for absurd reasons that make NO SENSE. The guy who originally brought about the idea of cutting up the video even mentions that he had a sync glitches because of it (duh!).

*Sure you can use a shoe to hammer in a nail, and sure, the guy who's paying you only cares if the work is done...but you'd be an idiot to do it that way.*


I swear, some of you guys are worse than climate-change deniers, and just like climate-change deniers, you are ruining it for everyone else.


I really dislike what this forum has become. I keep hoping it'll get better and time and time again I'm proven wrong. Since the very definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, I think it's time for me to cut out of here.

It's been fun Frederick, thanks for all the good things that have come out when this place was populated with informed and educated individuals, and when there was still respect and appreciation for experience and knowledge. 

Unfortunately I think those days are behind us, so it's time for me to join my many (and far smarter) esteemed colleagues who have moved on to greener pastures (i.e. private forums).

This will be my last post.


----------



## Tanuj Tiku (Feb 19, 2013)

With Time Code on the film, why does anyone need to cut the film?


----------



## Ed (Feb 19, 2013)

Whats the point in actually making new videos anyway?

If you want to chop up a video file its easy to do it non destructively in Cubase. 

Is it hard to do in other sequencers then?


----------



## Tanuj Tiku (Feb 19, 2013)

Ed @ Wed Feb 20 said:


> Whats the point in actually making new videos anyway?
> 
> If you want to chop up a video file its easy to do it non destructively in Cubase.
> 
> Is it hard to do in other sequencers then?



+1


----------



## RiffWraith (Feb 19, 2013)

Brian Ralston @ Tue Feb 19 said:


> ....you do not work with anything different than WHAT YOUR POST SUPERVISOR GAVE YOU. Everyone in Post has the exact same files/renders. You do not go off and re-render or recreate new files to sync with when that is not what everyone in post (post house, sound designer, mixers, ADR, foley) is working with. You are asking for trouble.



Ahhh - THAT is what you were trying to say? Not really what you said before, tho I realize it is maybe what you meant.

Ok - that is actually a good point. You do not want to deliver cues that are out of sync because you did a crap job cutting the vid. And yes, doing a render can screw you up; I would not recommend doing that. However, you can do this foolproof in Cubase. Import the vid, and slice at several points. Best bet is to pick the last frame of a shot, and make sure there is no music that carries into the next shot. You now have a vid file with (for ex) five slices, and six seperate smaller scetions. There are a couple of ways to do this, but what you will wind up with is six projects, each with it's own smaller scetion. Doing it this way ensures that no mistakes are made in slicing, duration of each section, etc.

Now I am not saying that that's the definitive way to go. It's neither 'the right way' nor 'the wrong way'... But telling someone it's wrong to do that is just not right.

Cheers.


----------



## MichaelL (Feb 19, 2013)

Brian Ralston @ Sun Feb 17 said:


> YoungComposer @ Sat Feb 16 said:
> 
> 
> > If you need to "cut up" digital video files you are provided with into smaller pieces to score...then you are doing it all wrong.
> ...



That's the way I've done it. But then again, I learned by counting film frames on a flatbed, in the dark ages.


----------



## Jimbo 88 (Feb 19, 2013)

Yes I'm with RiffWraith on this one...

I appreciate the expertise that Brian and MidPhase bring. Certainly do not wish to get into a "i'm right you are wrong" thing and make people angry.

I understand the issue of doing things that are asking for trouble. And you have a very good point.

I can tell you tho, that I have re-rendender picture after adding homemade Streamers and punches, composed my score and spit out new audio...and I routinely check sync to find it better than Frame accurate. 

I just completed a 10 episode (hour long each episode) TV series and had zero issues with sync. I mean the audio mixers and producers where very happy how well I hit sync points. And trust me it was constantly like trying to hit a moving target with all the changes and updates. The pic lock was never compromised.

I'm not sayin'...just sayin'.


----------



## schatzus (Feb 19, 2013)

> I really dislike what this forum has become. I keep hoping it'll get better and time and time again I'm proven wrong. Since the very definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, I think it's time for me to cut out of here.
> 
> It's been fun Frederick, thanks for all the good things that have come out when this place was populated with informed and educated individuals, and when there was still respect and appreciation for experience and knowledge.
> 
> ...



Geez... Please tell us little people where the far smarter esteemed colleagues hang out... oh wait, Hans Zimmer comes by here. I think I'll stay put. Vi-Control!!!


----------



## Brian Ralston (Feb 19, 2013)

schatzus @ Tue Feb 19 said:


> ...oh wait, Hans Zimmer comes by here. I think I'll stay put. Vi-Control!!!



And Jim Dooley's assistant is probably having a great laugh right about now. Inferred by Steve Kofsky anyway.


----------



## gamalataki (Feb 19, 2013)

Jimbo 88 @ Tue Feb 19 said:


> I can tell you tho, that I have re-rendender picture after adding homemade Streamers and punches, composed my score and spit out new audio...and I routinely check sync to find it better than Frame accurate.


Jimbo, that takes time. Scoring time.

When you get a reel, leaving the picture alone and importing (read - referencing) it into each cue allows you to create a new music session for each cue, referencing the same picture file with a different start time. Of course you'll want to trim the heads and tails for each cue so your time line doesn't get unruly.
You can then bounce each cue to a QT, for director's approval for instance, from any start point you wish. There's absolutely no reason to spend time cutting picture when you're only using it to score to, as you can start it from any point you want, around any cue or time frame, without doing that.

Suppose a director wants to preview a cue, but with a two minute lead time, so he/she can gain perspective from the big sound scene that precludes the cue? If you have only a picture that prerolls your cue by a few seconds, you're going to have to stop working and make yet another short. Or, if the powers that be decide to start a particular cue a minute earlier and/or have it extend another :30 and they're making this request while already on the dub stage, do you really want to spend time making an appropriate QT at that point? Anomalies are par for the course and I could site dozens more.

It really is just a waste of time. Scoring time.


----------



## Jimbo 88 (Feb 19, 2013)

gamalataki @ Tue Feb 19 said:


> Jimbo 88 @ Tue Feb 19 said:
> 
> 
> > I can tell you tho, that I have re-rendender picture after adding homemade Streamers and punches, composed my score and spit out new audio...and I routinely check sync to find it better than Frame accurate.
> ...





Hey Man thanks for the very intelligent response, I understand what you are saying and get it. But it is really not a waste for me. As soon as I receive a QT file I drop it in my Video editing program and add Streamers and punches as part of the spotting process. I might spend 20-30 minutes doing this to a Segment or Reel and rendering. Since this is done on a separate computer I can set up my DAW and search for sounds This time spent decreases my composing time 10 fold. When I have live players drop by it decreases recording time 10 fold.

As far as creating QT's to bounce from any point, still not an issue...I can do this in matter of seconds from my Video editing software. i do that often. And If it takes your DAW 10 minutes to render that section, I takes mine about the same, but i'm still working on the rest of the program while that is happening 'cause my other computer is doing that work. 

There might be a little miscommunication here, a reel does not get changed when it is sent. The only thing I might change is i always have a uniform :10 lead in time with a 2 beep in the files I work with. Editors are always sending me revisions with different lead in times. Changing the start time is just a matter of typing in the new TC.

I score segments or reels with one file or session and I'm very comfortable with that. But your point about creating new music session with each cue is something I should consider. 

I'm going to let you in on a secret here that would have others clamoring for me to return all the royalties I've earned, but my DAW does not playback QT files very well at all. So I don't want to use them. My DAW, however, handles 64 bit plugins and does render stems and mixes faster and better than I've seen other DAWs. So when a producer calls me from a mix or a dubbing stage and asks me for changes I have "Dropboxed" and DigiDelivered new mixes in short order. 

you might be surprised just how many of us are out there.

Thanks for the insight, seriously....you have given me thought to try things differently


----------



## RiffWraith (Feb 19, 2013)

gamalataki @ Wed Feb 20 said:


> Jimbo 88 @ Tue Feb 19 said:
> 
> 
> > I can tell you tho, that I have re-rendender picture after adding homemade Streamers and punches, composed my score and spit out new audio...and I routinely check sync to find it better than Frame accurate.
> ...



Thanks for the post - some good ideas there.

Let me ask you something. Let's say you get a film that is 1 hr 30 min. You keep it all as one file in your seq., and you score the entire film, head to tail. Then the director comes to you with another cut, where the scene that starts at (TC) 01:10:20:02 and runs to 01:12:10:11, has been trimmed, and now ends at 01:12:00:05.... and the scene that starts at 01:49:22:02 and runs to 01:51:12:27, has been trimmed, and now ends at 01:50:20:02.... So you pop in the new vid, and make changes to those scenes. Done. But now, much of the rest of the music is now out of sync with the picture. How do you go about handling this?


----------



## Jimbo 88 (Feb 19, 2013)

RiffWraith @ Tue Feb 19 said:


> gamalataki @ Wed Feb 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Jimbo 88 @ Tue Feb 19 said:
> ...




I don't mean to jump in and speak for someone else, but if the Production Company is handling the project with reels he is pretty much in the same place with those of us who "Cut up" the film. He would have been working with the reels and needed to make the changes to just those reels infected with changes.

IF not, he makes the changes to the 2 cues, buys the audio mixer lunch and asks him to slide the rest of the music cues into place. Not really that big a deal if everyone is friends.

I'd still like to hear what Gamalataki and other would do and think....


----------



## gamalataki (Feb 19, 2013)

RiffWraith @ Tue Feb 19 said:


> Let me ask you something. Let's say you get a film that is 1 hr 30 min. You keep it all as one file in your seq., and you score the entire film, head to tail. Then the director comes to you with another cut, where the scene that starts at (TC) 01:10:20:02 and runs to 01:12:10:11, has been trimmed, and now ends at 01:12:00:05.... and the scene that starts at 01:49:22:02 and runs to 01:51:12:27, has been trimmed, and now ends at 01:50:20:02.... So you pop in the new vid, and make changes to those scenes. Done. But now, much of the rest of the music is now out of sync with the picture. How do you go about handling this?


It's quite common, you have your editor rebalance the film. A film is often still being cut during post. If one scene is shortened, you have to pull what's behind it (music, sound, dialog) up and if it's lengthened you have to push what's behind it back by the amount it's lengthened.
This has happened to just about every show or film that's ever been made. Sometimes ad nauseam.


----------



## RiffWraith (Feb 20, 2013)

Jimbo 88 @ Wed Feb 20 said:


> I don't mean to jump in and speak for someone else, but if the Production Company is handling the project with reels he is pretty much in the same place with those of us who "Cut up" the film. He would have been working with the reels and needed to make the changes to just those reels infected with changes.....



Right - a perfect argument to have individual reels to begin with. Which again, is typically the way it is done anyway.



gamalataki @ Wed Feb 20 said:


> It's quite common, you have your editor rebalance the film. A film is often still being cut during post.



Yes, I know! :D 



gamalataki @ Wed Feb 20 said:


> If one scene is shortened, you have to pull what's behind it (music, sound, dialog) up and if it's lengthened you have to push what's behind it back by the amount it's lengthened.



Right - but if you have many changes (let's say 20) and some of these changes are subtractions and some are additions, doesn't it get a little dicey moving all of that data and automation around? Isn't it just easier if the film is cut up into smaller segments?


----------



## Tanuj Tiku (Feb 20, 2013)

This is why I score almost all cues in separate sessions. Changes are happening all the time. 

If you have VE Pro - this is easy as the session is independent and samples remain unchanged. So you can quickly move to different projects.

Of course, if the cues are really small and there are about three on the same session, you can always adjust the tempo - warp it to fit to the time code.

At the end of the day, you are always going to be in sync with the time code on the picture.

The first thing to do is to sync Cubase or any sequencer to the time code on the film itself. 

This way, everything is always in sync. 

This is also very helpful when you track into another system using MTC. 

Some of the changes can even be made on rendered files. But, a lot of it needs MIDI editing. This is a nightmare and moving everything around if some scenes have been edited heavily is quite challenging. 

But, with Warp and just basic tempo changes, this can be achieved.

I don't know how they do it in Hollywood or Europe - wherever you are but when it's time to record the orchestra - all the pages have the Time Code printed on them anyway.

We don't waste time with the session players sitting ideal for 30 bars on the sheet because the next part is just a minute later. 

The recording is not linear always. We go right to the time code and there is a guy who is making sure all of it is in the right place.

I mean, you do need a team when so much is going on. You cannot possibly do everything yourself but you must be aware of it. That is why I currently prepare my own score sheet - its extremely basic and I rely on Cubase's basic scoring sheet because I am not very good at it but I am not working with the world;s best musicians. 

Their dynamics are not like the players in Hollywood or London. So often, dynamic markings are useless and we even have to create audio fades. 

This is the reality of scoring as well. But its good practice to put as much down as possible because later you will face problems - I am guessing, I dont have extensive experience with this and cannot read music properly. But, with MIDI and the score in front of me, I can make changes and make sure its easy enough to read and understand. 

Specially when you are doing hybrid scoring, you have to jump around and superimpose parts - this is why the time code is always there on the score sheet even. We quickly move to the parts. 

The programmed audio is also always in sync and the score sheet is tallied with the audio in question every time. 

I don't see the point in scoring the whole reel or even half of it in the same session - the requirements are very different of each cue. 

Of course, I create a template for each movie before I start any cue - so the sound world is the same. I don't want to start from scratch trying to achieve that same sound for each cue - it will be a disaster. 

Once the tone is set, the template will get modified according to the cue. 

You cannot have a huge real time - programming and on-the-fly mixing environment on the same session - its just too demanding - unless of course, you have servers stacked up in machine room - I am not in a position to have that luxury at the moment. So, I mix in the session yes but its limited to the cue or two I am working on. Not the whole reel.

With broadcast wave chunk, its simple enough to stitch it all back together into another system where you can focus on each cue against the picture in one complete session Reel. 

Then finally, you move up to the mixing stage where all the reels can be in one session with the relevant stems. 

So you start small - with smaller cues, move upwards and create longer sessions per reel and I often just sit and watch the whole thing even without the director in one flow. 

You will loose track if you just keep doing each cue without understanding whats happened in the last one or whats coming up. It takes a while getting used to but it can bed one.

So often, I will render the tracks and import them into the next session so I know what the previous cue was and where its all going - sometimes, even more than 2 previous cues.

Another problem with cutting the video is loosing perspective. I need to have the whole reel available because sometimes, I may want to go back to a scene and go through it again to understand how I can build the arc. Sometimes, I may feel what I have written for another cue might work better on the previous one or somewhere else. 

So, you do not want 20 quicktime videos. Reels are good enough and I like to keep it simple.

Just my thoughts.


Tanuj.


----------



## Jimbo 88 (Feb 20, 2013)

Very cool post Tanuj, 

I'm going to have a hard look at the way you do things. I have always scored a reel in one file so I could keep things in perspective and bouncing stems is more organized (for me). Changes for me are not difficult, I do have to worry about resyncing cues down the timeline, but i'm pretty good at that. it is usually a couple of tempo changes and you are back in sync. 

Sure different cues have different needs...I have worked around that as my DAW is not bad at loading up on plugins, but it certainly is an issue I want to explore. I'll be downloading VE Pro today.

Thanks for the post. FYI I've heard your music cues and love 'em.


----------



## gamalataki (Feb 20, 2013)

RiffWraith @ Wed Feb 20 said:


> Right - but if you have many changes (let's say 20) and some of these changes are subtractions and some are additions, doesn't it get a little dicey moving all of that data and automation around? Isn't it just easier if the film is cut up into smaller segments?



Well post production is a lot of work, but it shouldn't be that much. Once a picture is locked, you can rest assured that it will stay fairly conformed unless the editor was fired and they're starting over. In that case you'll get the hurry up and wait notice and then you'll be given a new output. A change or two or a scene rebalancing is common, but they'll send you a new version, so just keep on writing and don't ever worry about doing anything with the picture.

I'm not getting all the confusion concerning picture. I've tried to explain it, but let me try once more.
Reel 1 A-Z. You have 10 cues to write in Reel 1.
1m1 - open new sequencer session, import R1 into your video track, the whole reel is there but you only need playback for 2 minutes for that cue.
Finish cue, close session, open new session for 1m2 click on R1 for your video track, but now you are further down the time line, but the video is still the same. Repeat. The video never changes or needs to be cut, because it's being accessed at different points in time as you work your way through your individual cues.
Now if for some reason people are thinking about composing all the cues in a reel in one sequencer session, don't. The possible problems that can raise their ugly heads are too many to list.
===========================================================

On a side note, I have to apologize for jumping into a thread without reading it's history, I should know better by now.

After reading most of it, I see that a lot of experienced people have given their time to this thread and there have been some heated exchanges, which of course is unnecessary.

In the world of film music post production, there's is a very specific language and work methodology and without it nothing would get done.

Of course everybody varies their own workflow to suit themselves, but straying too far and creating your own universe will put you out of sync with the other 50 people involved and you won't be invited to another party.

Jimbo, when I read something like this (or anything else from that post):


> But it is really not a waste for me. As soon as I receive a QT file I drop it in my Video editing program and add Streamers and punches as part of the spotting process.


It's very telling. No where in the history of film or television would that statement make any sense. Preparing for conducting is no where near the spotting process. I would implore you to get an education and listen to the seasoned and educated people here who are volunteering their time. (Of course sometimes it's hard to separate the signal from all the noise.)

Good luck,


----------



## marclawsonmusic (Feb 20, 2013)

midphase @ Tue Feb 19 said:


> I really dislike what this forum has become. I keep hoping it'll get better and time and time again I'm proven wrong. Since the very definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, I think it's time for me to cut out of here.
> 
> It's been fun Frederick, thanks for all the good things that have come out when this place was populated with informed and educated individuals, and when there was still respect and appreciation for experience and knowledge.
> 
> ...



This bums me out big time. Kays is a smart guy.
:(


----------



## Mike Marino (Feb 20, 2013)

> This bums me out big time. Kays is a smart guy.



+1


----------



## Ed (Feb 20, 2013)

I'd also suggest leave some space at the front of your project. On the film I just finished when I got final cut they had taken the end of Reel 3 and added it to the start of Reel 4. That was slightly awkward since some music overran


----------



## Jimbo 88 (Feb 20, 2013)

gamalataki @ Wed Feb 20 said:


> RiffWraith @ Wed Feb 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Jimbo, when I read something like this (or anything else from that post):
> ...



I do not use streamers for conducting purposes. Although sometimes they end up for that. I use them for composing guides. Streamers allow me to score to picture much quicker. It allows me to improvise to scenes, they allow me to bring in other musicians and have them improvise to picture. They work especially well when you have a narrator in a documentary and if i remember correctly the OP is about doing a Doc. They work great when you are doing wall to wall music. Lots of benefits and time savers. Streamers allow me to score and not have to block out measures, So say I'm doing cue and it has bass, drums, keyboards and Gtr. i don't have to memorize what is on screen or what beat things end. I can play along and know..it ends here. The guitar player comes by and i don't say "Fade out before the Car door shuts" He knows my streamer is red and he is out. no words used.

The thing about hollywood, LA and doing things the way everyone else does things...They are done for a reason, but they do change when someone comes along with a better way. Not saying my way's better. But it aint been wrong.


----------



## givemenoughrope (Feb 20, 2013)

Mike Marino @ Wed Feb 20 said:


> > This bums me out big time. Kays is a smart guy.
> 
> 
> 
> +1



+10 x 10

Here's what I do:

I get the clip/short/film/etc. It goes into Logic which is simply used as a video host on it's own machine. I extract the audio from the video and import it into Cubase on my main machine which sends MTC to Logic. The video in Logic stays untouched and the time code unchanged. I prefer cues in Cubase to start at bar 1 (even if the audio from the clip starts at negative bar X) so I'll set the timecode as necessary. (Starting a cue at bar 759 is annoying.) I'll bounce temp mixes to import ahead or behind the Cubase session if I need to hear what I'm coming out of or what I'm going into. When I'm done and each cue is ready, I port my audio (stems or rough mixes depending) over to the Logic video session with the audio they gave me, export the video with the new audio, send it and then wait for them to tell me how terrible it is. Works every time.


----------



## Jimbo 88 (Feb 20, 2013)

marclawsonmusic @ Wed Feb 20 said:


> midphase @ Tue Feb 19 said:
> 
> 
> > I really dislike what this forum has become. I keep hoping it'll get better and time and time again I'm proven wrong. Since the very definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, I think it's time for me to cut out of here.
> ...




He might be a smart guy and he might be a good guy, but I'm not worried about it at all.

Someone asked for help, I think it was Riffwraith makes a suggestion. Kays says "No that is wrong" and gives sketchy reasons why. Others disagreed, including myself.... and Kays is not open to suggestion, just telling us how right he is.

It reminds me of why I do not like LA culture at all. There are too many people more interested in preserving the culture and not pushing to make things better. There is only one way to do things and if you don't understand and fall in step you are wrong.

Like when I mentioned I use streamers at the start. The response is "you need to get an education"....instead of "hmmm that's interesting why do you do that and how does it work?"

FYI, Ive been scoring to picture for 30 years and live in very nice neighborhood due to my efforts..... and lack of education I guess.


----------



## schatzus (Feb 20, 2013)

> This bums me out big time. Kays is a smart guy.


Agreed.
I guess I just don't understand all the drama around a public forum designed to elicit opinions and ideas. The emotional outpouring of "quitting" a forum that has such value like VI-Control. Then insulting the intelligence of those who are here? I just don't get it... Apologies for getting off topic.


----------



## Markus S (Feb 21, 2013)

Brian Ralston @ Tue Feb 19 said:


> schatzus @ Tue Feb 19 said:
> 
> 
> > ...oh wait, Hans Zimmer comes by here. I think I'll stay put. Vi-Control!!!
> ...



Are you implying that Rctec really is Kim dooley's assistant and not Hans Zimmer? Well, that would be one hell of a hoax, but I suppose someone checked this? Or is it some collective profile of people (working with HZ) having a great laugh pretending to be HZ?


----------



## Ed (Feb 24, 2013)

Markus S @ Thu Feb 21 said:


> Are you implying that Rctec really is Kim dooley's assistant and not Hans Zimmer? Well, that would be one hell of a hoax, but I suppose someone checked this? Or is it some collective profile of people (working with HZ) having a great laugh pretending to be HZ?



It would have to mean Spitfire are actually not really working on HZP or at least don't realise rctec isnt Hans.


----------

