# Headphones and Hearing Loss



## Rohann (Dec 1, 2017)

Hi all,

Does anyone have/has anyone read reputable info on headphones and hearing loss? I constantly hear this touted but without any specific mechanisms, often coming down to rhetoric about purely subjective listening volumes. I get that persistent earbud wearing tends to mean long exposure to loud volumes, but there's no causal mechanism other than dB and time. Non-noise cancelling buds often mean more sound bleeding into the ear and therefore the tendency to push volume, but again, dB and time.

I would imagine sound pressure may have something to do with it, which is why open backed phones might be more favourable in this regard, but I again have little to no idea what might cause hearing loss other than the obvious. It seems mythical to claim that monitoring through headphones at 70dB for 6 hours is more damaging than listening through speakers, all things being equal.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Dec 1, 2017)

I've asked the same thing and no one has shown me any evidence that it's true yet people swear by it. Some people claim that the sound gets "trapped" in your ear because it can't leave past the headphones but this seems absurd. Especially if you're using open headphones. Even if it did, then it would sound louder so you'd turn it down to match the speaker level and you'd again end up with the same amount of energy hitting your ears. I haven't found any sort of scientific research showing that it does more damage.

Given that more distant speakers in a larger room need to be louder to perceptually match the level of closer speakers in a small room, it would give to reason that with headphones the actual amplitude going into your ears would be lower than on speakers in order to have the same perceived level. So you could be exposed to less noise while working at the same level.


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## jneebz (Dec 1, 2017)

FWIW, I have a degree in Audiology. This is good information from the _Speech & Hearing Association_ here in the U.S.: https://www.asha.org/public/hearing/Noise/. It's really is all about SPLs and the duration of exposure on the inner ear mechanisms. _*regardless of how the SPLs reach your inner ear*_ (headphones vs. speakers, etc.). Bottom line, if you're listening/mixing >80dB on headphones or speakers for more than 6-8 hours at a time, take breaks and let your ears rest (the metabolic fatigue is what can lead to damage). And avoid standing next to concert speakers and jet engines  Hope this helps.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Dec 2, 2017)

jneebz said:


> FWIW, I have a degree in Audiology. This is good information from the _Speech & Hearing Association_ here in the U.S.: https://www.asha.org/public/hearing/Noise/. It's really is all about SPLs and the duration of exposure on the inner ear mechanisms. _*regardless of how the SPLs reach your inner ear*_ (headphones vs. speakers, etc.). Bottom line, if you're listening/mixing >80dB on headphones or speakers for more than 6-8 hours at a time, take breaks and let your ears rest (the metabolic fatigue is what can lead to damage). And avoid standing next to concert speakers and jet engines  Hope this helps.



So just to be clear, if you're below the level/duration for damage on headphones (with the level set by comparing to speakers and level matching), then there's no inherent damage whatsoever?


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## Rohann (Dec 2, 2017)

jneebz said:


> FWIW, I have a degree in Audiology. This is good information from the _Speech & Hearing Association_ here in the U.S.: https://www.asha.org/public/hearing/Noise/. It's really is all about SPLs and the duration of exposure on the inner ear mechanisms. _*regardless of how the SPLs reach your inner ear*_ (headphones vs. speakers, etc.). Bottom line, if you're listening/mixing >80dB on headphones or speakers for more than 6-8 hours at a time, take breaks and let your ears rest (the metabolic fatigue is what can lead to damage). And avoid standing next to concert speakers and jet engines  Hope this helps.


Thanks for the input. So as above, all things being equal, nothing more damaging about headphones? Do higher frequencies tend to cause more damage in the long run or is this factored into dB measurement?


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Dec 2, 2017)

Rohann said:


> Thanks for the input. So as above, all things being equal, nothing more damaging about headphones? Do higher frequencies tend to cause more damage in the long run or is this factored into dB measurement?



One thing to be aware of is the dBC curve. If you have a lot of bass then it won't show all that much in the measurement but can do a lot of damage. I've heard that the bass drum is a huge part of the hearing damage that drummers get. Part of it has to do with not being as sensitive to those low frequencies so you don't notice that it's actually super loud.


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## synthpunk (Dec 2, 2017)

My wife is a hearing professional. Want to guess what the main cause of hearing damage is today ?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 2, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> My wife is a hearing professional. Want to guess what the main cause of hearing damage is today ?



High SPLs, and since people listen on headphones...

...keep waiting for it...

Sorry, what were we talking about?


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## synthpunk (Dec 2, 2017)

miss use of ear buds and headphones, yes, sorry for being cute.


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## Rohann (Dec 2, 2017)

Indeed. The point with my question is that nothing mentioned here allows one to claim causation between headphones and hearing loss. The headphones themselves, unless there is some other mechanism, are not the cause -- high SPLs are.
What I'm curious about is what about headphones accounts for the common misuse. Is it simply ignorance, ie low quality buds needing to be driven hard to get a fuller frequency response? After all, it would be demonstrably silly to say that the teenager cranking his Drake in his Apple buds to compensate for public transit noise is in any way comparable to the audio professional referencing a mix at lower volumes with open-backed phones.

Now regarding earbuds, barring misuse thanks to compensation for external noise levels and poor isolation, is there some sort of undetectable increase in SPL as a result of being in the ear canal?

Also, some headphones tend to be more fatiguing than others -- do certain frequencies cause hearing loss faster than others, or is it purely accounted for by SPL?


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## Rohann (Dec 2, 2017)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> One thing to be aware of is the dBC curve. If you have a lot of bass then it won't show all that much in the measurement but can do a lot of damage. I've heard that the bass drum is a huge part of the hearing damage that drummers get. Part of it has to do with not being as sensitive to those low frequencies so you don't notice that it's actually super loud.


I'm quite curious about this, have never seen this before. Thanks for the info!


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## Mike Greene (Dec 2, 2017)

My guess is that with headphones or earbuds, people tend to play music louder than they would with speakers, so that's why they're more damaging. The reason (in theory) that people play music louder with earbuds is that with speakers, you'll feel some of the bass in your body, so you sense loudness with that. (At the extreme end, this is the concept behind http://www.bassshakers.com/faqs/aura-bass-shaker-versus-buttkicker/ (bass shakers).) With earbuds, that's not there, so the music doesn't _seem_ as loud, so you turn them up.

I don't know whether this theory is actually true, but in my own case, if I want to "rock out," I find speakers way more satisfying, because that sensation of vibrations from the music hitting my body are part of the experience. If I were listening to headphones, I'd find myself a little less satisfied, so I'd probably turn them louder.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Dec 2, 2017)

I find the lack of a "reference point" with headphones to be dangerous. You have no idea how loud they actually are. If I have to do work on headphones for an extended amount of time (like when travelling) I try to match it to my normal speaker levels and then not go beyond that. When I don't do that, I end up pushing them way too far. If I'm travelling (car, trains, planes) I usually just accept that I'll be listening to them way too loud and just try to not go very long.


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## jneebz (Dec 2, 2017)

Rohann said:


> Thanks for the input. So as above, all things being equal, nothing more damaging about headphones? Do higher frequencies tend to cause more damage in the long run or is this factored into dB measurement?


a) Right. However, usually outside of the studio environment, higher SPLs are typical because people will increase loudness to rise above ambient noise, as Mike suggested. b) Not necessarily; however there is some speculation that naturally occurring hearing loss (presbycusis if you want to Google it) occurs in the higher frequencies first because the area in the cochlea that senses high frequencies is anatomically closer to your ear canal.


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## jneebz (Dec 2, 2017)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> I usually just accept that I'll be listening to them way too loud and just try to not go very long.


That is the key.


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## jneebz (Dec 2, 2017)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> One thing to be aware of is the dBC curve. If you have a lot of bass then it won't show all that much in the measurement but can do a lot of damage. I've heard that the bass drum is a huge part of the hearing damage that drummers get. Part of it has to do with not being as sensitive to those low frequencies so you don't notice that it's actually super loud.


Not sure I agree with this. Again, most thinking is that lasting damage is not really frequency dependent, but the SPL + duration relationship. Also low frequencies (below 250Hz) with their long wavelengths, are less focused on the middle and inner ear structures. In addition, we have a really cool reflex that fires a muscle that tightens our ear drum and the conductive bones in the middle ear when low frequencies do start to get troublesome (acoustic reflex).


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Dec 2, 2017)

jneebz said:


> Not sure I agree with this. Again, most thinking is that lasting damage is not really frequency dependent, but the SPL + duration relationship. Also low frequencies (below 250Hz) with their long wavelengths, are less focused on the middle and inner ear structures. In addition, we have a really cool reflex that fires a muscle that tightens our ear drum and the conductive bones in the middle ear when low frequencies do start to get troublesome (acoustic reflex).


But when you wear hearing protection the low stuff goes right through.


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## jneebz (Dec 2, 2017)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> But when you wear hearing protection the low stuff goes right through.


With protection, you are significantly reducing the focused "pressure" of the wave (via air molecules) on your hearing anatomy...and low frequencies have low-focus by their nature. You can still perceive low frequency loudness via bone conduction of your skull, but this has minimal effect as far as damaging your ears. Does that make sense?


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## Vastman (Dec 2, 2017)

Great thread! I do feel removing the outside world from your ears helps to achieve rational listening levels... 

Sony has been rapidly innovating in this area and I've switched to their new
1000XM2 Wireless Noise-Canceling Headphones. They blow away the other NR offerings on the market and are perfect for off-site listening to mixes, work in progress, or your go to stuff, which I do a lot... I tried several others and they don't hold a candle to these. 

Intelligent NR, best in class audio quality, and they truly are a blessing for removing the outside world (to the degree you desire) and thus allow for listening at much lower levels. It is amazing how much lower you can listen when it's quiet!


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## chimuelo (Dec 3, 2017)

I use less db’s and lower SPLs with Custom IEMs.
I’ve use seasoned audiologists from the private sector and VA for 22 years now.
Cant speak for cheap one sized fits all earbuds but my most recent graph shows the same 4K notch sensitivity of a person in an artillery battalion in their 20s pre training.
My use of IEMs has most likely helped preserve my hearing.
I use to use a Moog Lab Series Amp, Leslie 147s and Acoustic 150 in the 80s and OSHA Safety foam, my old band mates are in their 60s and always have the FOH tell them to come down or even point their mics to ports not cone edges.

Just my opinion but if your serious about YOUR ears get some molds and high quality drivers using Jerry Harvey patents. He holds the most patents, so efficient in months they are approved, when most patents take years, google them. Spend the extra.


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## Rohann (Dec 3, 2017)

Thanks for the input all. Good points. Part of the reason I only use noise-cancelling buds when out and about (relatively infrequently and not around ambient noise) is precisely because I don't want to be fighting ambient noise. I think the principle of establishing safe/reasonable listening volumes in a quiet area is a good idea. I think Mike is on too about feeling music -- I think buds tend to be better suited to very low volumes, because at higher volumes (I listen rather quietly compared to many) it's a lot more fun to feel everything and be "surrounded" by sound.

I'm curious to know how loud my buds are, but over time I've become far more sensitive to what fatigues my ears and to how loud I'm listening, as well as to how ambient noise affects me (I fairly recently spent a collective 22 hours on international flights in 3 days and even wearing plugs the entire time I still found the plane far too loud, I was kicking myself for not bringing my goofy gun-range over-ear protection).

The rare occasion I listen on an iPod, it's usually just a hair over half volume. I can't help but think custom buds are in order if one is serious about frequent portable listening.


jneebz said:


> Not sure I agree with this. Again, most thinking is that lasting damage is not really frequency dependent, but the SPL + duration relationship. Also low frequencies (below 250Hz) with their long wavelengths, are less focused on the middle and inner ear structures. In addition, we have a really cool reflex that fires a muscle that tightens our ear drum and the conductive bones in the middle ear when low frequencies do start to get troublesome (acoustic reflex).


That's quite interesting, I wasn't aware of that.


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## robertGL (Dec 8, 2017)

I will always remember some Public Service Announcement from the 1980s(?) with the drummer/keyboardist of REO Speedwagon or some equivalent band talking about the danger in high decibel listening, and how he always used headphones during live sets. It stuck with me, so I mostly stuck to headphones, avoided loud noises, and rarely used earbuds.

I did operate headphones at higher volume when I was younger, but after developing slight tinnitus as well as bouts of vertigo, I purposely keep the volume down now.
My hearing seems to be alright; I recently passed a hearing test for a federal agency position.


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