# Why I Use Cubase Over Ableton Live



## Daniel James (Apr 11, 2017)

Hey guys,

I get asked this question a lot when I do videos and live streams (because I used Ableton Live primarily and professionally for a long time)

For those of you who care and havn't seen this already during one of my live streams I gave a detailed explanation of specifically why I chose Ableton and which is the best DAW for you.



-DJ


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## Kony (Apr 12, 2017)

I think it's funny the amount of times you keep getting asked about this btw


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## jononotbono (Apr 12, 2017)

Kony said:


> I think it's funny the amount of times you keep getting asked about this btw



So do I! Haha!


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## Danial (Apr 12, 2017)

Makes sense..


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## AdamAlake (Apr 12, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I get asked this question a lot when I do videos and live streams (because I used Ableton Live primarily and professionally for a long time)
> 
> ...




Did you make a complete switch, or do you still use Ableton on the side?


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## Alohabob (Apr 12, 2017)

AdamAlake said:


> Did you make a complete switch, or do you still use Ableton on the side?


I am switching from Ableton to something else and considering selling my suite. But I'm curious as to how you would use Ableton along with Cubase. Can you elaborate on how you'd do that?


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## AdamAlake (Apr 12, 2017)

Alohabob said:


> I am switching from Ableton to something else and considering selling my suite. But I'm curious as to how you would use Ableton along with Cubase. Can you elaborate on how you'd do that?



I am not a Cubase user bot another member had a great insight on this matter in another thread today :



karelpsota said:


> I've been using Ableton for 10 years and Cubase for a month. Mostly electronic music and trailer sound design (Power Rangers, Justice League...)
> 
> The obvious pro is *FX processing*.
> 
> ...


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## InLight-Tone (Apr 12, 2017)

I've debated this quite a bit myself. Cubase is great for orchestral hybrid stuff, but it's also overly complicated and takes multiple clicks to get the same job done in Live. Sometimes I just crave the simplicity instead of multiple icons all over the place for the same thing, too much visual clutter. 

Check out the Multi Clip Editor from Isotonik, it addresses the midi editing flaws you spoke of. With a controller like Push, you can also access instantly ANY clip, or scene (section) of a piece with the push of a button assuming you start in session. This takes the place of all the markers and cycle markers. 

Live has instrument racks, you can easily layer up synths and samplers and MidiFX made in Max any which way you want. That can take scores of individual tracks in Cubase which ends up being a mess. 

Live has drum racks where you can build kits quickly layering a synth drum patch with samples then with the Drum Articulate Max plugin to any depth. 

Also I think where Live shines is hardware control like having a Push for mixing and triggering clips, scenes etc., letting your composition evolve organically in session view THEN moving over to arrangement to flesh it out. 

Mixing on a Push and the hardware control of synths and samplers is awesome. Automation from Push is dirt simple. 

Lastly let's not forget Max4Live which lets you or others program and make the software the way you like and/or make custom composition tools. It's too bad Ableton responded the way they did, disheartening...


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## John Busby (Apr 12, 2017)

AdamAlake said:


> Did you make a complete switch, or do you still use Ableton on the side?


in the video he said he still uses Ableton for audio and sound design stuff i.e. EDM, electronica etc.
but that Cubase has taken over the cinematic side


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## Matt Riley (Apr 12, 2017)

I used to use Live exclusively for years but found it very lacking and I found that the developers were not open to suggestions and that they are incredibly slow to make improvements. I still use it for Live performance but I don't plan to give them any more money for upgrades. I'm Logic now for all production work and love it. I use a lot of the same key commands that I did in Live which made the transition easier.


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## InLight-Tone (Apr 12, 2017)

Matt Riley said:


> I used to use Live exclusively for years but found it very lacking and I found that the developers were not open to suggestions and that are incredibly slow to make improvements. I still use it for Live performance but I don't plan to give them any more money for upgrades. I'm Logic now for all production work and love it. I use a lot of the same key commands that I did in Live which made the transition easier.



I hear you. It's kind of sad that people like Isotonik have to use Max so extensively to bolt on features that should be in Live natively.


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## Matt Riley (Apr 12, 2017)

I'm preparing a set in Live right now for a rehearsal. It gets the job done but I'm wishing for things that have been requested years ago that would save me some extra clicks. Not huge deal for how I'm currently using Live, it's just a bit cumbersome. But for composing, never again! I fought Logic for years and finally committed last year. SkiSwitcher makes it a dream.


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## Daniel James (Apr 12, 2017)

InLight-Tone said:


> I've debated this quite a bit myself. Cubase is great for orchestral hybrid stuff, but it's also overly complicated and takes multiple clicks to get the same job done in Live. Sometimes I just crave the simplicity instead of multiple icons all over the place for the same thing, too much visual clutter.
> 
> Check out the Multi Clip Editor from Isotonik, it addresses the midi editing flaws you spoke of. With a controller like Push, you can also access instantly ANY clip, or scene (section) of a piece with the push of a button assuming you start in session. This takes the place of all the markers and cycle markers.
> 
> ...




I know all these and use all those features. Like I say in the video I still use Ableton Live for certain things. Cubase is just more focused for the type of work I do on a day to day basis.

-DJ


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## Daniel James (Apr 12, 2017)

Alohabob said:


> I am switching from Ableton to something else and considering selling my suite. But I'm curious as to how you would use Ableton along with Cubase. Can you elaborate on how you'd do that?



Dont sell your old one. Use both. Some DAW's are focused with certain types of users in mind. You may come across a project in the future where one DAW is a better fit than another.

-DJ


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## Musicam (Apr 12, 2017)

I use FL STUDIO, great and free updates.


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## Musicam (Apr 12, 2017)

Any thought about Bitwig?


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## Daniel James (Apr 12, 2017)

Musicam said:


> I use FL STUDIO, great and free updates.



Just to point out that I am not saying that Cubase is better/worse than another DAW just that for what I do it makes my life the easiest and its future has me in mind.

You can absolutely make amazing music in any DAW and if you like it and it gives you what you need then its perfect. Its not the brush or paint that makes a good artist 

-DJ


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## Musicam (Apr 12, 2017)

Yes, totally agree.


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## InLight-Tone (Apr 12, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> I know all these and use all those features. Like I say in the video I still use Ableton Live for certain things. Cubase is just more focused for the type of work I do on a day to day basis.
> 
> -DJ



Thanks for the input Daniel as I'm doing similar music as you, not on your level yet . I've personally gone back and forth a couple of times and yes sold everything in doing so including a couple of Pushes to make myself commit.

The main reason I commit to one or the other is that if I'm doing Live personally, then I also desire to get deep into Max, and there isn't enough time in a day to do that AND compose in Cubase.

On the other hand, if I'm in Cubase then it's the Logical Editor, Lemur control and that is it's own universe. 

If I truly had to choose, and making money is on the line, then it would be Cubase, and hey since that IS the situation, I think my answer is clear, so hopefully Live 10 sucks and I stay put so I can eat and have a roof over my head!!!


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 12, 2017)

Interesting video. 

I would say that, looking at Abletons origins, it was always aiming for the EDM producer demographic. So I'm not really surprised by the responce Daniel received from his emails.

And let's face it, from a companies stand point, it's a much more profitable demographic to go for. People may talk about how saturated the Trailer music/fim/tv cue market is, but it's a drop in the ocean compared to the EDM market. (I bet Masterclass made a lot more money out of the Deadmau5 class than they did out of the Hans Zimmer one). 

BTW, Does anyone know if you can do that "scaled rise" thing with the velocities in Logic?


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## NoamL (Apr 12, 2017)

Great thread... any thoughts on Cubase vs Logic and Cubase vs PT? I'm going to switch (from LPX) to either Cubase or PT eventually and some of those velocity-morphing and scaling features Daniel showed off are really neat. I do not believe they are available in Logic....


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## jononotbono (Apr 12, 2017)

NoamL said:


> some of those velocity-morphing and scaling features Daniel showed off are really neat. I do not believe they are available in Logic....



Yeah that stuff has been in Cubase for years! I guess those of us who have used it for a long time are spoilt.


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## AlexRuger (Apr 12, 2017)

NoamL said:


> Great thread... any thoughts on Cubase vs Logic and Cubase vs PT? I'm going to switch (from LPX) to either Cubase or PT eventually and some of those velocity-morphing and scaling features Daniel showed off are really neat. I do not believe they are available in Logic....


Cubase, 10000%. With your writing style and workflow, Cubase will be amazing. PT not so much.


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## Vanni (Apr 14, 2017)

Anyone working with a template should switch for the intelligent visibility options alone.
Throw in e midi editing features and there's no going back.

Still, as very righty DJ points out, everything depends on the type of music: for EDM style Live is light years better.

But I do agree on the main theory: it is not true that "the best DAW is the one that you can use more effectively". No one would ever change DAW if this was true.
You have to budget a "decent" amount of learning time, where "decent" depends on how much time ones devote to this job or hobby.


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## chrysshawk (Apr 15, 2017)

Vanni said:


> Anyone working with a template should switch for the intelligent visibility options alone.
> Throw in e midi editing features and there's no going back.
> 
> Still, as very righty DJ points out, everything depends on the type of music: for EDM style Live is light years better.
> ...



Great thread, thanks DJ.

For EDM related projects, I still use Ableton. However, even there, the lack of midi control and multiple CC lanes makes me wonder if I will continue using it for this purpose. Honestly, NOT having these functions in place is pretty hostile towards the users. To modulate synths and racks, you certainly want to have a great CC implementation.

We will see what Live 10 brings to the table. But, like DJ, if Ableton's direction is not going to address pretty much the exact same features DJ mentions in the video, I suspect Cubase might actually offer a superior workflow also for EDM producers.


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## AdamAlake (Apr 15, 2017)

chrysshawk said:


> Great thread, thanks DJ.
> 
> For EDM related projects, I still use Ableton. However, even there, the lack of midi control and multiple CC lanes makes me wonder if I will continue using it for this purpose. Honestly, NOT having these functions in place is pretty hostile towards the users. To modulate synths and racks, you certainly want to have a great CC implementation.
> 
> We will see what Live 10 brings to the table. But, like DJ, if Ableton's direction is not going to address pretty much the exact same features DJ mentions in the video, I suspect Cubase might actually offer a superior workflow also for EDM producers.



Very doubtful. A good amount of Ableton musicians are former or current hardware users and Ableton has excellent external instrument integration.

When you take into consideration its sampling and audio editing/warping which is something EDM producers use heavily and Push 2, which is pretty much the most convenient way to make loop based music - it is very unlikely that Cubase would be a good alternative, even if 10 did not rectify those specific issues.

In fact, I personally believe Live 10 will cause an increase in Ableton's share in the DAW market, even if it only via more dance music creators using it.


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 16, 2017)

Ableton has some amazing features which will always make it attractive.

Instrument and effects racks are great for layering and sound design (with instant parallel channels for any and all tracks). 

The External Instrument device is great for multitimbral/multi out instruments too.


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## chrysshawk (Apr 16, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Ableton has some amazing features which will always make it attractive.
> 
> Instrument and effects racks are great for layering and sound design (with instant parallel channels for any and all tracks).
> 
> The External Instrument device is great for multitimbral/multi out instruments too.


I totall agree. But once you want to start modulating the rack, the GUI quickly becomes a mess. If banale plucks where no modulation is required, Ableton is great.

As for samples, most of what Ableton can do, Cubase does as well (as per DJ's video). Again, Ableton has had the chance for years to improve that. For instance, I still don't think you can assign key commands to Reverse, x2 and :2. Wtf is that? Small things like that all builds up and costs time. 

Meanwhile Cubase is improving their sample integration, and it wouldn't be surprising if they implement racks as well. But the future will tell what happens...


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## petejonesmusic (Apr 16, 2017)

NoamL said:


> Great thread... any thoughts on Cubase vs Logic and Cubase vs PT? I'm going to switch (from LPX) to either Cubase or PT eventually and some of those velocity-morphing and scaling features Daniel showed off are really neat. I do not believe they are available in Logic....



Logic can do this velocity scaling type of thing in the Hyper Editor I believe : https://documentation.apple.com/en/logicpro/usermanual/index.html#chapter=28&section=13&tasks=true


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## Vik (Apr 16, 2017)

Logic can do velocity scaling (as supposed to just increasing/decreasing the velocities by an equal amount) in the piano roll and score's built in MIDI Draw editors as well. That's actually the default behaviour on selected events - but if you try to grab one of the green velocity thingies, because they look selected, this won't happen - because they are unselected. But Cubase has lots of other stuff which Logic hasn't, @NoamL. Have you seen the other Logic/Cubase threads on this forum, Noam?


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## vewilya (Apr 16, 2017)

In Logic you can also build a velocity ramp while maintaining certain established velocity ratios... Just hold down command key when drawing the line in the midi draw...


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 16, 2017)

vewilya said:


> In Logic you can also build a velocity ramp while maintaining certain established velocity ratios... Just hold down command key when drawing the line in the midi draw...




Thanks, that's exactly what I wanted to know.


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## novaburst (Apr 16, 2017)

AlexRuger said:


> Cubase, 10000%. With your writing style and workflow,



Bingo its just there what ever you need and its there, what ever you want to do it does it, mind you I wanted a cup of coffee and it put 3 sugars in instead of two so I may need to report a bug  (cubase 6)


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## InLight-Tone (Apr 16, 2017)

chrysshawk said:


> I totall agree. But once you want to start modulating the rack, the GUI quickly becomes a mess. If banale plucks where no modulation is required, Ableton is great.
> 
> As for samples, most of what Ableton can do, Cubase does as well (as per DJ's video). Again, Ableton has had the chance for years to improve that. For instance, I still don't think you can assign key commands to Reverse, x2 and :2. Wtf is that? Small things like that all builds up and costs time.
> 
> Meanwhile Cubase is improving their sample integration, and it wouldn't be surprising if they implement racks as well. But the future will tell what happens...



I already put in a feature request for "Layer Tracks"...


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## kitekrazy (Apr 16, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> Dont sell your old one. Use both. *Some DAW's are focused with certain types of users in mind.* You may come across a project in the future where one DAW is a better fit than another.
> 
> -DJ



Amazing that some people do not get this. DAWs have become religions and stick with one at all costs. This does have the advantage of knowing your tools to the max. I collect DAWs like people collect synths. This worse thing that could happen if I got a Mac and collect a few more. 
I do find a lot of differences between DAWs and some are more inspiring for certain genres. Live is a great scratch pad for messing with audio files. I just find the midi part not as great because of the limited real estate. FL Studio has one of the best piano roll views out there.
While I rarely do anything orchestra, I still prefer a DAW with a staff view.

I do see more EDM users on Mac switching to Logic.

I love the competition that is in the DAW market. There are some budget ones like Mixcraft and the new Waveform that are a bang for the buck.

What is really interesting on this forum is the greater interest in Reaper.

I only wish Sony (now Magix) would have invested more in Acid Pro with a full blown midi editor window. That would have been my choice.

I was always amazed what you did in Live.


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## kitekrazy (Apr 16, 2017)

InLight-Tone said:


> Thanks for the input Daniel as I'm doing similar music as you, not on your level yet . I've personally gone back and forth a couple of times and yes sold everything in doing so including a couple of Pushes to make myself commit.
> 
> The main reason I commit to one or the other is that if I'm doing Live personally, then I also desire to get deep into Max, and there isn't enough time in a day to do that AND compose in Cubase.
> 
> ...



I have the Suite License and couldn't really justify an upgrade price unless it was under $150. They've wrecked the browser to where it's like opening Gigastudio 2.5 where you have to wait to use it.


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## kitekrazy (Apr 16, 2017)

Musicam said:


> I use FL STUDIO, great and free updates.



Love this one too. It's Music Radar's most popular DAW.


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## AdamAlake (Apr 16, 2017)

InLight-Tone said:


> I already put in a feature request for "Layer Tracks"...



That would is amongst my wishlist - other features would be native 64bit plugin support (even though jBridge supposedly works well), more clarity in the arrangement view (including the thing where you can see the midi from other tracks like in cubase) and the ability to automate CC from the arrangement.


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## Daniel Petras (Apr 16, 2017)

I wish Reaper had this sort of midi flexibility. I'll probably switch to Cubase in the near future.


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## AlexRuger (Apr 16, 2017)

AdamAlake said:


> ...the ability to automate CC from the arrangement.



You can, but it's limited...you can't see it in the piano roll. Wish they would change this.


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## iMovieShout (May 12, 2018)

Hi all,
Not sure if this is the correct thread, so apologies if not, and can you direct me accordingly to the correct one.
The challenge: I have borrowed a PUSH2 and wanting to set it up with Cubase 9.5 or Nuendo 8 in order to create drum patterns etc. 
The problem: Despite using Shove and following Cee Lopez's video, I can only get the Push2 to make a piano sound. Confusing as it does this even when Cubase/Nuendo aren't running. Its as if Push2 has somesort of default instrument that its driving and playing over the USB cable. With Cubase/Nuendo running, I can't get Push2 to make any sounds other than the default piano, and it won't play any VST instruments, and can't record any MIDI data from it.
Has anyone come across this issue? Is there a solution?
If not then, is there a better MIDI instrument I should look at to create drum patterns etc, other than a set of drums?

Many thanks in advance,
Jon


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## Saxer (May 12, 2018)

Push is created to communicate directly with Ableton live. It's specially designed to interact with that software. So there's probably a communication problem using it in Cubase or other DAWs. I don't know if Push has a generic midi control mode to work as a standard pad controller. For programming drums Midi such pad controllers are probably the easiest way:
http://www.akaipro.com/products/pad-controllers/mpd-218
http://www.korg.com/us/products/computergear/padkontrol/


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