# Tips for combining Rock Band with Orchestra



## gmet (Mar 30, 2008)

I am working on a composition for Rock Band with Orchestra. From what I can gather the rock band needs to be compressed and very dry saving the reverb for the orchestra. Anyone have any more tips?

Justin

BTW: I am using MOR and EWQLSO/VE so any specific tips would be handy.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 30, 2008)

This is a tip I got from Thonex a few years ago for combining techno stuff and orchestra: treat the "rhythm section" and orchestra as two separate entities, then mix and match later.

On the other hand, there are times when that approach is wrong. You might want the drums, etc. to be back on the stage with the orchestra, blended in. But that's not what you're asking about.


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## Waywyn (Mar 30, 2008)

Justin M @ Sun Mar 30 said:


> I am working on a composition for Rock Band with Orchestra. From what I can gather the rock band needs to be compressed and very dry saving the reverb for the orchestra. Anyone have any more tips?
> 
> Justin
> 
> BTW: I am using MOR and EWQLSO/VE so any specific tips would be handy.



Hey Justin,

as Nick already mentioned. Really keep the orchestra and the rock band (unless you want to have the band at the stage too) separated.

If you wanna go the Don Davis Matrix "Burly Brawl" approach then start with the orchestra, bounce the track so the orchestra is finished and THEN open a new project and really concentrate on all the rock stuff (or actually the other way round - starting with the rockband).

This is just a personal opinion but I am always working like this. In my template I ONLY have orchestral stuff. If there are two or three tracks of percussions or synth - not a problem ... but if you have complex stuff going on, try to separate those styles.

Sooner or later you end up comparing the volume of the brass with the drumset or the guitar to the strings - don't loose yourself.

So bounce your orchestra track and then import the stereo file (or even better the four basic stems: Strings, Brass, Woods and percussions) into a new project.

Compress the rock stuff as hell. Compress the drums, the guitar, the bass, then compress the whole bus track/group. At the end you should have a nice and punchy rocktrack.

Now get the right mix between the orchestra and the rockband. If you want to do really minor tweaks (strings might be a bit soft or brass to loud do it, but don't loose yourself) thats okay.


Hope this was a bit helpful


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## Brian Ralston (Mar 30, 2008)

Watch the guitar effects...especially if you want to hear any lower string lines at all. The distorted guitar seems to fall right in line with the cello and viola voicings...and if you have dist. guitar parts doubled track after track (with other effects like chrousing and flanging, etc...) to get that full sound...it is going to be harder and harder to carve a hole to help your middle strings be heard. 

You will know when it is too much. If you have a section where the strings are not 'singing' through the mix...you might want to consider altering or dropping one of the guitar doubled tracks...etc...


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## José Herring (Mar 30, 2008)

Excellent advice everyone!

I'll only add that I get the rhythm tracks going first then arrange the orchestral tracks around the guit, drums and bass.

best,

Jose


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## gmet (Mar 31, 2008)

Thanks for the tips Guys. I am doing some recording of brass players (for a custom library) for the rest of the week but will post my Rock Orchestra cue when it's finished for comment.

Justin


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## Dietz (Mar 31, 2008)

For some strange reason, I've mixed quite a few pop/rock-productions with a strong orchestral edge during the last year (and I'm working on yet another one right now). There was even a HipHop act with a full 80+ piece symphonic orchestra amongst them ... Some of these productions proved to be quite successful both musically as well as commercially. - I know, this sound like shameless selfpromotion 8-), but the time simply seems to be right for this kind of crossover.

The clue for me was to forget all puristic stuff we've learned to take care of when it comes to orchestral music. In a pop/rock context, the orchestra (or at least the single instrument groups) has/have to be treated like "just another instrument of the band", so to speak. At least this is true when you aim for a good musical interaction between the two worlds (... of course there may be other scenarios where you want the two kept apart from each other on purpose, like those old "Concerto For Group And Orchestra"-experiments of legendary bands like Deep Purple or Uriah Heep).

In other words: Just try to get the orchestra "into the mix", and don't be shy to use filters, EQ, compressors, whatever it needs, like you would treat the drum-set or guitars. Panning and positioning doesn't have to match "classical" principles (e.g. it's not wrong to move the doublebasses near the center, opposed to the more common classical position to the right).

Usually, the classical orchestral sound will need a bit more punch and strength, and it will need to be kept much drier than you may be used to. It can help a lot to add a layer of sampled instruments for more precision and rhythmic definition.


Examples from stuff I did in this direction during the last few months (there should be stuff available for pre-listening online):

-> http://www.jvcmusic.co.jp/quruli/ (true live recording of a band with a 16-piece string orchestra)

->  ("virtual" live concert of the 80-ies star Falco with band and a full-blown symphonic orchestra - recorded in groups, not live, plus additional samples. Sorry for the German Amazon-link, I couldn't find another site with audio-examples online.)

-> http://www.einshoch6.de/pages/jdn.php?track=11&res=0 (a young German-spoken rap-group with a complete orchestra, the latter recorded as a whole)


... maybe this gives you food for your own ideas and solutions


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## Joshua Day (Sep 18, 2021)

Resurrecting a really old thread here. This is great advice. Does the same principle apply when trying to mix Irish or folk/acoustic front band with backing orchestra, like Secret Garden or Keith and Kristyn Getty? Some of the interments are similar, like a fiddle and oboe in the front band as well as being instruments in the orchestra. I assume the process is to work on the two parts separately just like rock with orchestra.


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