# New Mac Pro -- so far so good



## JohnG

Hi all,

Some time in 2021 I want to replace my Mac Pro, as it's now 11 years old. Even though it's been upgraded very substantially, I think I'd like to look at what's available.

I might go for another refurbished one from the guy who did this one. It has worked for five or six years (can't remember) and cost far less than new. Plus less "new hardware" risk.

Regarding a new machine, I know there are all these changes in the offing -- Catalina seems probably (?) settled in, but the CPU chips and all that are changing. I can't afford (in more ways than one) to rely on not-yet-proven technology to meet deadlines.

What do you guys think? I used to buy RAM from 3d parties for Mac. On that subject I'd want at least 64GB maybe 128(?). At least a 3.46 clock speed (the current one). Not sure about how many cores really help and I know opinion is divided.

Kind regards,

John


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## Traz

When you say 'refurbished mac pro' do you mean a 2013 mac pro or the new one that just recently came out?

I believe you are a Digital Performer user right? I can't really personally speak on the stability of DP and Catalina as I use Cubase and Logic myself, but I've been on catalina since day one and have never experienced any problems.

I have a teacher however that uses DP and is on the new mac pro and he doesn't seem to be having any issues. I assume he is also on catalina but I never asked.

I don't know if I'm really being any help here haha.


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## dzilizzi

This is kind of hard. And I'm not a Mac expert. I think you pretty much have to go with a new pro version if you want to be able to update more than the RAM or a older version that is basically the same as what you have. The soldering of components is the biggest issue. 

That said, with the current world situation, there may be Mac Pro's to be had for a discounted rate. If you can afford it, I would probably go in that direction. Then you should be able to get a good 10 years out of it. 

I haven't heard much about compatibility issues with the new Mac Pro and software, but I don't know anyone who has one.


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## JonS

JohnG said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Some time in 2021 I want to replace my Mac Pro, as it's now 11 years old. Even though it's been upgraded very substantially, I think I'd like to look at what's available.
> 
> I might go for another refurbished one from the guy who did this one. It has worked for five or six years (can't remember) and cost far less than new. Plus less "new hardware" risk.
> 
> Regarding a new machine, I know there are all these changes in the offing -- Catalina seems probably (?) settled in, but the CPU chips and all that are changing. I can't afford (in more ways than one) to rely on not-yet-proven technology to meet deadlines.
> 
> What do you guys think? I used to buy RAM from 3d parties for Mac. On that subject I'd want at least 64GB maybe 128(?). At least a 3.46 clock speed (the current one). Not sure about how many cores really help and I know opinion is divided.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> John


Get what I have, 2019 8-core i9 iMac with 128GB RAM and 2TB internal SSD or get a new 2020 iMac.


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## method1

I'm also in the market for a pro, but I'm waiting to see what the rumoured M1 based Mac Pro is like.
With the incredible performance Apple is getting out of the M1 I think it'll be a helluva machine!

That said, 2019 Mac Pro still has plenty life in it, if I can find a reasonably priced one I might go that route.


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## rmak

dzilizzi said:


> This is kind of hard. And I'm not a Mac expert. I think you pretty much have to go with a new pro version if you want to be able to update more than the RAM or a older version that is basically the same as what you have. The soldering of components is the biggest issue.
> 
> That said, with the current world situation, there may be Mac Pro's to be had for a discounted rate. If you can afford it, I would probably go in that direction. Then you should be able to get a good 10 years out of it.
> 
> I haven't heard much about compatibility issues with the new Mac Pro and software, but I don't know anyone who has one.



Where do you look for discounted Mac pros? world situation meaning covid?


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## ridgero

JohnG said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Some time in 2021 I want to replace my Mac Pro, as it's now 11 years old. Even though it's been upgraded very substantially, I think I'd like to look at what's available.
> 
> I might go for another refurbished one from the guy who did this one. It has worked for five or six years (can't remember) and cost far less than new. Plus less "new hardware" risk.
> 
> Regarding a new machine, I know there are all these changes in the offing -- Catalina seems probably (?) settled in, but the CPU chips and all that are changing. I can't afford (in more ways than one) to rely on not-yet-proven technology to meet deadlines.
> 
> What do you guys think? I used to buy RAM from 3d parties for Mac. On that subject I'd want at least 64GB maybe 128(?). At least a 3.46 clock speed (the current one). Not sure about how many cores really help and I know opinion is divided.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> John



It's hard to give you a realistic recommendation for next year. By then, all important software will presumably be optimized for the Apple Silicon processors. I expect the Intel Macs to lose value and interest pretty quickly. No matter how much multicore performance these 2019 Mac Pro devices have, the value of the single core performance of a CPU is far too underestimated, it handles the most important tasks. And no Intel processor feels as fast as an Apple Silicon processor and these are - I emphasize - only the entry-level models. If you believe the rumors, a small Mac Pro will also be presented, makes sense, since many do not need this huge tower.

Even if you choose an Intel Mac Pro in 2021, it will also be significantly cheaper than it is today. If you can, wait till the end of 2021. And please test the basic MacBook Air M1, the difference to Intel is huge. (Got an iMac Pro with 10 Cores)


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## dzilizzi

rmak said:


> Where do you look for discounted Mac pros? world situation meaning covid?


That's a good question. My thought is, a lot of people are out of work and may be selling things they don't need. I'm not sure people or companies who can afford to buy Mac Pros are in that state, but I was actually thinking of some of the film industry companies who may have over bought based on 2019 business and have not had as much business in 2020. So maybe industry ads?

The other thing is the refurbished market. Apple did have a number of on their site when I last looked. Not discounted enough for me, but if this is your business, it may be a great price.


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## Mishabou

JohnG said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Some time in 2021 I want to replace my Mac Pro, as it's now 11 years old. Even though it's been upgraded very substantially, I think I'd like to look at what's available.
> 
> I might go for another refurbished one from the guy who did this one. It has worked for five or six years (can't remember) and cost far less than new. Plus less "new hardware" risk.
> 
> Regarding a new machine, I know there are all these changes in the offing -- Catalina seems probably (?) settled in, but the CPU chips and all that are changing. I can't afford (in more ways than one) to rely on not-yet-proven technology to meet deadlines.
> 
> What do you guys think? I used to buy RAM from 3d parties for Mac. On that subject I'd want at least 64GB maybe 128(?). At least a 3.46 clock speed (the current one). Not sure about how many cores really help and I know opinion is divided.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> John



I upgraded to the new MP 2019 a few months ago. It was a big step up from my 2013 12 cores/128GBram....have not had one single crash working on music (LPX, CB10, Live10) and post (PT 2020 running decent size session in 5.1/7.1/Atmos) with lots of plug-ins, all kinds of outboards/synth and controller (Avid S6). The machine is fast, tons of room for expansion and, most important of all, extremely reliable.


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## studioj

I'm in a similar position, was pretty much primed to upgrade my 2013 6 core to a new 16 or 24 or 28 core mac pro before the year end, but now I'm thinking I'm going to try to wait until we see the new processing tech in pro machines to upgrade. If you HAVE to upgrade now, i would say the 16 core 2019 mac pro would be the sweet spot and a significant bump from your old cheese grater. Most people I know are very happy with these new machines. keep in mind processor speed is not really comparable in performance across different processor tech / releases.


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## Greg

I've been using the 2019 Mac Pro 3.2 16 core with 384 gb of ram and its been an absolute dream to work on. I also loaded it with super fast nvme ssds so load times are quick and I can disable all unused tracks in my template and load one or a whole bus in an instant when I need to. 

Only a few libraries make it hiccup, such as slate and ash stuff, spitfire kepler with fast tempos, etc. Best of all, I can keep my buffer at 128 for the entire process. Only need to freeze fast and complex ostinatos or runs.


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## Dewdman42

John right now is not a great time to invest heavily in a Mac because apple is going through huge changes. It’s better if you can wait a year or two. 

The specs of my system are as late as I will go for now but in order to run Catalina and eventually Big Sur, it has to be run as a hackintosh which I can only reccomend for highly nerdy techie types. 

The 2013 macpro will let you run Catalina but no pci slots which may or may not be an issue for you, I would not recommend using one of those either. Really you have to make do with something for the next year or two until apple releases the right ARM product which we don’t really know for sure when or how that will be.

My next question is what specific problem are you trying to solve? Whatever you do will be a stop gap measure imho, through the ARM transition.


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## JohnG

rmak said:


> Where do you look for discounted Mac pros? world situation meaning covid?



There's a guy who builds them who lives in Los Angeles and he did the one I have now. PM me if you are interested.

I'm intrigued by the 2019 models -- I will check that out as soon as I finish these jobs I'm on. 2013 is just too old.

@Dewdman42 I'm totally sure you're right about waiting but I can't go through what just happened again. IDK if it's even hardware or not but I have gear so old it's all on the "legacy" pages of the manufacturers. I'm not up for Hackintosh -- can't face that one without a tech living in my studio.

I don't have a stopgap. I have a 2009 Mac Pro that has served me well but time for something not so old.


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## Dewdman42

If money no object, get the 2019. But still I can’t reccomend at this time unless you can justify the expensive and realize that in maybe 3 years you’ll be wanting to trade up to arm. Lots of unknowns between now and then about peripherals.


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## Dewdman42

Ps - what “just happened”, that you don’t want to go through again, and how will a newer Mac prevent that from happening?

In my view, all the Mac mini’s and iMacs since 2013 will not be sufficient, I would personally rather be on my 2012 then any of those. If you are depending on pci cards at all then really I would say you have two options, 2012 or 2019 macpro. If you can live without pci cards then there is probably an iMac with enough ram to get you by for a few years until next gen arm macpro comes out.

The situation is not good, the reason you’re still on your 2009 computer is partly because apple hasnt delivered a macpro since 2013 and even that one lacked pci slots though you can get an external chassis for that but I wouldn’t spend money for that now.

So the reality is 2012 was the last good year for Macpros, then you can go to 2019 for big bucks and I’m sure it will be sweet setup but Intel is going to phase out over the next few years so that better be throw away money in my view.

Otherwise look at the i9 iMac and live without your pci cards if you have any.


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## el-bo

The worry I would have is that Apple view computers over five-years-old as ‘Vintage’. Of course, they tend to last longer. However, it wouldn’t surprise me if that becomes the cut-off point for assured Intel compatibility, at least for their own software.

If you don’t depend on Logic Pro, Final Cut etc. and are happy to perhaps remain behind the curve once other developers follow suit, then maybe all will be fine.

Of course, if you really can’t wait then you can’t wait.


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## sinkd

I am looking at an M1 Mac mini as my desktop and repurposing my upgraded 2009 (12-core 3.4, 96G RAM) as a sample slave. Right now I have everything on the 2009 cheese grater.


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## JohnG

Well, these are all valid concerns, and thanks everyone for your ideas and opinions. Quite a number of people are using Mac Minis, I hear anecdotally.

I think the first thing I'm going to do is clean install the OS on this computer but, as we all know, that will take some time and require a lot of crying, looking up to God and asking "why?," trips to therapy, etc. So, hours!

I will make a clone of the boot drive of course, so never fear. 

Or I will get my buddy to do it all and go for ice cream...

But seriously folks, I love the Mac / Apple environment and while I have three PCs, which are good too, I don't want to change everything over to Windows / Outlook etc. Blah on that. 

I am not putting it off another year. Unless the clean install solves all issues...heh-heh...


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## studioj

if you are really itching to upgrade and it is affecting your workflow I would recommend getting the 16 core 2019, get a shit ton of RAM and you can possibly retire the PC slaves. My 2013 rig is actually super stable and my slave system helps to spread the load so I can manage to wait another year or 2.


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## studioj

Personally i would probably not waste time on a clean install on a system that old unless I was going to sell it and not install any other software on it. Time better spent doing other things!


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## JohnG

studioj said:


> Personally i would probably not waste time on a clean install on a system that old unless I was going to sell it and not install any other software on it. Time better spent doing other things!



That's a good argument!


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## emasters

I purchased an Apple-Direct refurbished 2019 MBP last month. i9, 8 core/16 thread, 64GB, 4TB internal SSD. It's a fantastic tool for composing/arranging. No regrets at all and would highly recommend. That said, I knew full well in two years Apple would obsolete it with the upcoming M1+ product line. But I didn't want to get the early release M1 products (done that before with Apple, and regretted it). So I opted to go with a proven model, knowing at some point in the next 3-4 years, I would move once again to a new M1+ platform. BTW, the specs on Apple's refurbished 2019 MBP and new 2020 MBP are the same (I couldn't find any material differences). Just $1,000 less when purchasing a refurb model (same warranty).


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## dzilizzi

I have to wonder about that. They just came out with the MacPro last year after years of ignoring that type of computer. I can't see them doing an upgrade on it to the M1 product line until it is the last one to go. Maybe in 4 or 5 years.


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## Dewdman42

JohnG said:


> I am not putting it off another year. Unless the clean install solves all issues...heh-heh...



Not sure what problems you're having, but yea I think a clean install is in order. I actually nearly always do a clean install for every version of OSX. But yes its very time consuming and I usually end up with my sleep schedule all FUBAR after a week of late nights reinstalling all the software I use on it. But in the end I'm always glad I have a clean install. But I don't do it every year. I tend to go every 2nd or 3rd version of OSX before I upgrade...so that is only once every 2-3 years...and yes it involves some late nights re-installing everything, but I do it anyway.

Mojave works very well, I really don't think you should be having any big trouble with it right now. The only reason I upgraded to Catalina was because of LogicPro, which you aren't really using...so what's the rush?


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## Dewdman42

dzilizzi said:


> I have to wonder about that. They just came out with the MacPro last year after years of ignoring that type of computer. I can't see them doing an upgrade on it to the M1 product line until it is the last one to go. Maybe in 4 or 5 years.



Rumors are already in for 32core Pro Arm Mac by next year. Will not be 4-5 years. 

But they are also trying to claim that they will continue to support Intel, via universal binaries...for that long..and perhaps Apple will.. But where people with those 2019 pros may be burnt is that 3rd party developers will increasingly switch over to ARM and turn their back on Intel way before Apple does. So I feel that in 3 years...people still on intel will be starting to cry. 

But hey...we shall see...


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## el-bo

dzilizzi said:


> I can't see them doing an upgrade on it to the M1 product line until it is the last one to go. Maybe in 4 or 5 years.



They pitched their statement of intent with the release of three (what are essentially) 'budget' computers, and now everything else in their line-up is old-tech, waiting for retirement. And while we have no idea how they plan to scale a mobile all-in-one processor to 'Pro' status, they presumably do and may not be too far away from being able to implement it.

They have to balance the idea of honouring those who have spent eye-watering amounts on the current gen Pro', with not being able to capitalise on those who will now hold off buying until it becomes silicon-ised.

It's a delicate dance, f'sure. I don't think Apple will be so cut-throat about it, though, and will allow a decent grace-period on Intel compatibility in the case of OS and in-house apps. But I'd be surprised if they'd take close to that long to get the new PRO(M) out there.


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## dzilizzi

Wow, okay then. That is going to be interesting. I really think the new Apple does not care about the pro user anymore.

I want to say I had an ARM processor on my first Samsung tablet? Not sure they are the same thing, because it barely powered the apps I used. I'm very interested to see how these new chips work past the basic email/Youtube/web surfing most users do.

Edit: Yes, looked it up. The ARM chips are used by Samsung. I like my Samsung phone, but I don't make music on it.


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## el-bo

dzilizzi said:


> I really think the new Apple does not care about the pro user anymore.



Whereas I think they are positioning themselves to try and turn most of the industry on it's head, including at the pro level.

Will be interesting to see what happens.


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## method1

M1 has shown itself to be insanely powerful already, I'm sure Apple will want to flex with a pro machine soon!


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## dzilizzi

I'll take your word for it....


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## Dewdman42

dzilizzi said:


> Wow, okay then. That is going to be interesting. I really think the new Apple does not care about the pro user anymore.
> 
> I want to say I had an ARM processor on my first Samsung tablet? Not sure they are the same thing, because it barely powered the apps I used. I'm very interested to see how these new chips work past the basic email/Youtube/web surfing most users do.
> 
> Edit: Yes, looked it up. The ARM chips are used by Samsung. I like my Samsung phone, but I don't make music on it.



I hear you. Apple seems to be taking ARM to a whole new level with the new consolidated memory concept.... So this may be game changer for ARM. But honestly I am still waiting to see what happens. There were a lot of great performance reports with the M1. There have also been some reports about thermal issues and other weird things that will have to be worked out, but at least for now I can say that Apple has proven a concept, that ARM can be made to be much more performant than perhaps previously thought. 

I feel confident they will deliver SOMETHING that will be good enough for all of us to do what we like to do, that we talk about all day on this forum. There are many open ended questions about what form that will take. I believe we will have some kind of workable solution to choose in 2-3 years. Some people will choose earlier stuff and maybe that will be fine for them, but for me to replace my MacPro...I think that is 2-3 years out. 

Utter speculation between now and then as to what it will be. I feel that between now and then I will continue using and loving my Intel MacPro while we watch that unfold. I'm just personally glad I didn't throw down nearly $10,000 for the 2019 model. Some businesses can easily make the case for spending that much money though, even if its just for 3 more years.. (shrug)... everyone is different.


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## method1

At this point there are some niggles to work out, but I think it's mainly about software developers catching up with the new platform to fully make use of the performance gains. 

I was shocked at the power of the new macbook air, it's absurdly powerful for a first generation computer. Once we start seeing 12 cores and up things are going to get really interesting. 

As for user installable upgrades and PCIE slots.. that's a whole 'nother issue...


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## rmak

JonS said:


> Get what I have, 2019 8-core i9 iMac with 128GB RAM and 2TB internal SSD or get a new 2020 iMac.


do the iMacs sound like hair dryers? when you are using cpu intensive plugins


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## Justin L. Franks

JohnG said:


> On that subject I'd want at least 64GB maybe 128(?). At least a 3.46 clock speed (the current one). Not sure about how many cores really help and I know opinion is divided.



Don't worry about clock speed. A newer generation CPU with a slower clock speed will still be *significantly* faster than what you have.

The current and last-year 27" iMacs are quite potent, especially with the i9 CPU's, and support 128 GB of memory which is user-installable. If buying new or refurb from Apple, order it with the base 8 GB. Then put in two 32 GB sticks in the remaining two slots, which will give you 72 GB total. When you want to upgrade to 128 GB, just replace the two stock 4 GB sticks with two more 32 GB sticks.

That will get you going for far less than the cost of a new Pro, and by the time you're ready to replace it in a few years, the new pro ARM Macs will have been out long enough for software support to trickle down to just about everything.


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## sourcefor

JohnG said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Some time in 2021 I want to replace my Mac Pro, as it's now 11 years old. Even though it's been upgraded very substantially, I think I'd like to look at what's available.
> 
> I might go for another refurbished one from the guy who did this one. It has worked for five or six years (can't remember) and cost far less than new. Plus less "new hardware" risk.
> 
> Regarding a new machine, I know there are all these changes in the offing -- Catalina seems probably (?) settled in, but the CPU chips and all that are changing. I can't afford (in more ways than one) to rely on not-yet-proven technology to meet deadlines.
> 
> What do you guys think? I used to buy RAM from 3d parties for Mac. On that subject I'd want at least 64GB maybe 128(?). At least a 3.46 clock speed (the current one). Not sure about how many cores really help and I know opinion is divided.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> John


Yeah I would wait and see what they do to the iMac and other comps with the M1 or M1X..that’s what I am going to do.


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## sourcefor

emasters said:


> I purchased an Apple-Direct refurbished 2019 MBP last month. i9, 8 core/16 thread, 64GB, 4TB internal SSD. It's a fantastic tool for composing/arranging. No regrets at all and would highly recommend. That said, I knew full well in two years Apple would obsolete it with the upcoming M1+ product line. But I didn't want to get the early release M1 products (done that before with Apple, and regretted it). So I opted to go with a proven model, knowing at some point in the next 3-4 years, I would move once again to a new M1+ platform. BTW, the specs on Apple's refurbished 2019 MBP and new 2020 MBP are the same (I couldn't find any material differences). Just $1,000 less when purchasing a refurb model (same warranty).


Exactly my response


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## dzilizzi

Justin L. Franks said:


> Don't worry about clock speed. A newer generation CPU with a slower clock speed will still be *significantly* faster than what you have.
> 
> The current and last-year 27" iMacs are quite potent, especially with the i9 CPU's, and support 128 GB of memory which is user-installable. If buying new or refurb from Apple, order it with the base 8 GB. Then put in two 32 GB sticks in the remaining two slots, which will give you 72 GB total. When you want to upgrade to 128 GB, just replace the two stock 4 GB sticks with two more 32 GB sticks.
> 
> That will get you going for far less than the cost of a new Pro, and by the time you're ready to replace it in a few years, the new pro ARM Macs will have been out long enough for software support to trickle down to just about everything.


I'm assuming the drives are still soldered in. How are they lasting? I normally don't have an issue with most things soldered in, but I've had drives crap out after about a year - both HDD and SSD. Others have lasted for over 5 years without an issue. It makes me really nervous to have my drive soldered in. 

And? I probably won't get an Apple (other than the mini that is sitting on my desk - someday I will build a Hackingtosh just for the fun of it!) I have no real reason to spend the money on it. (other than my GAS says "you need Logic!")


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## Justin L. Franks

dzilizzi said:


> I want to say I had an ARM processor on my first Samsung tablet? Not sure they are the same thing, because it barely powered the apps I used. I'm very interested to see how these new chips work past the basic email/Youtube/web surfing most users do.
> 
> Edit: Yes, looked it up. The ARM chips are used by Samsung. I like my Samsung phone, but I don't make music on it.



Apple just licenses the ARM instruction set. They design their own CPU's.


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## Justin L. Franks

dzilizzi said:


> I'm assuming the drives are still soldered in. How are they lasting?



Correct. Everything is soldered except for the user-accessible RAM and the CPU (not technically user-accessible, but it can be replaced without tossing the logic board).


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## Justin L. Franks

Correction...it appears that the SSD may be replaceable in a 2019 iMac 5K. They do use their own custom SSD's though, you can't just plop in an NVME drive.


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## JonS

rmak said:


> do the iMacs sound like hair dryers? when you are using cpu intensive plugins


No. My iMac rarely turns the fan on.


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## gsilbers

JohnG said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Some time in 2021 I want to replace my Mac Pro, as it's now 11 years old. Even though it's been upgraded very substantially, I think I'd like to look at what's available.
> 
> I might go for another refurbished one from the guy who did this one. It has worked for five or six years (can't remember) and cost far less than new. Plus less "new hardware" risk.
> 
> Regarding a new machine, I know there are all these changes in the offing -- Catalina seems probably (?) settled in, but the CPU chips and all that are changing. I can't afford (in more ways than one) to rely on not-yet-proven technology to meet deadlines.
> 
> What do you guys think? I used to buy RAM from 3d parties for Mac. On that subject I'd want at least 64GB maybe 128(?). At least a 3.46 clock speed (the current one). Not sure about how many cores really help and I know opinion is divided.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> John




Theres plenty of folks like you and me who are on the same boat.

I got a mac mini with a 8tb ssd (micron 5210) on external usbc.
Pretty much on par with my 5,1 mac pro w 64gb ram, even better.


At this point, i think waiting to see the M1X cpus might be the best solution.
you probably, , like me, went through the powerpc transition and thats why you still
have the intel mac pro.
This is happening now which i would defenitly wait to see what apple silicon might bring becuase the entry level already is blowing the high end mac intel, which means the higher end might not only be beter, but cheaper and last longer.

thats what im doing at least. got my mac mini intel the interim for random stuff while waiting for the new macs.


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## dzilizzi

Justin L. Franks said:


> Correction...it appears that the SSD may be replaceable in a 2019 iMac 5K. They do use their own custom SSD's though, you can't just plop in an NVME drive.


That makes it a little more interesting.... Thanks!


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## jbuhler

rmak said:


> do the iMacs sound like hair dryers? when you are using cpu intensive plugins


My 2020 i9 iMac has been remarkably quiet even rendering video. It’s yet to make a peep working in Logic. This in comparison to my 2015 i7 iMac, which was very noisy. Whether anyone needs the i9 for audio work is another question but it running hot and kicking on the fan and throttling has not yet been an issue.

In terms of performance, I don’t see huge gains in Logic with the i9 other than being able to run reliably at a lower buffer. There are more gains with video production.


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## nas

Like many here and yourself I'm ready to upgrade but I'm definitely holding off for one more year. So far the new m1 chips have been pretty amazing in the new models (Mac mini, MacBook air, MacBook pro 13"). The newer iMacs and Mac Pros are going to start rolling out in 2021 and I think they're going to be stellar once things settle and all the third party plugins and drivers are tweaked - right now we're not quite there yet in terms of compatibility with the newer chips and Mac OS. I think the transition is going to see some very serious performance gains. Worth hanging in there if you can afford to wait.


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## jonathanwright

JohnG said:


> Well, these are all valid concerns, and thanks everyone for your ideas and opinions. Quite a number of people are using Mac Minis, I hear anecdotally.
> 
> I think the first thing I'm going to do is clean install the OS on this computer but, as we all know, that will take some time and require a lot of crying, looking up to God and asking "why?," trips to therapy, etc. So, hours!
> 
> I will make a clone of the boot drive of course, so never fear.
> 
> Or I will get my buddy to do it all and go for ice cream...
> 
> But seriously folks, I love the Mac / Apple environment and while I have three PCs, which are good too, I don't want to change everything over to Windows / Outlook etc. Blah on that.
> 
> I am not putting it off another year. Unless the clean install solves all issues...heh-heh...



I've just (after much procrastination) performed a clean install on my 6 year old iMac. I was starting to get some unpredictable issues and general performance related problems.

It's been like night and day. The issues are gone and in the process I've somehow managed to regain 100GB of disk space back! I'm pretty fastidious with OS maintenance, so I'm still trying to figure out where that came from.


----------



## JohnG

jonathanwright said:


> I've just (after much procrastination) performed a clean install on my 6 year old iMac. I was starting to get some unpredictable issues and general performance related problems.



I feel that procrastination reflects good judgement, lofty taste, and a discerning perceptiveness not granted to many.

You have convinced me (not that I needed much convincing).


----------



## el-bo

JohnG said:


> I feel that procrastination reflects good judgement, lofty taste, and a discerning perceptiveness not granted to many.



Looks like I need to cross a few books off my Xmas list.

Will probably do it, erm...sometime next week


----------



## JohnG

jonathanwright said:


> I've just (after much procrastination) performed a clean install on my 6 year old iMac. I was starting to get some unpredictable issues and general performance related problems.



This, plus some of the other members' comments about ructions in process with Apple generation makes me think that perhaps a clean install is the first best step, then see how the machine behaves.


----------



## JonS

JohnG said:


> This, plus some of the other members' comments about ructions in process with Apple generation makes me think that perhaps a clean install is the first best step, then see how the machine behaves.


Clean install is definitely the way to go as a next step!!


----------



## JohnG

JonS said:


> Clean install is definitely the way to go as a next step!!


I'm going to start a new thread on that subject -- thanks Jon and everyone.


----------



## JonS

JohnG said:


> I'm going to start a new thread on that subject -- thanks Jon


Personally, I don't do the clean install often enough, but it's amazing how many issues it can solve even though it's a big pain in da arse.


----------



## Chamberfield

I recently got a 2020 Mac Pro 3.2ghz 16-Core w/128GB RAM, and I feel like I've finally achieved Mac Nirvana. With DP10 and VEP7 it seems I can run as many VIs and plugins as I want in real time with no performance problems. I really is a dream. No more need for master/slave, it's all under one roof which is great.

You can save some money by getting 3rd party RAM. Apple RAM is ridiculously over priced. The consensus seems to be that 3.2ghz 16-core is the sweet spot for audio production.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Chamberfield said:


> I recently got a 2020 Mac Pro 3.2ghz 16-Core w/128GB RAM, and I feel like I've finally achieved Mac Nirvana. With DP10 and VEP7 it seems I can run as many VIs and plugins as I want in real time with no performance problems. I really is a dream. No more need for master/slave, it's all under one roof which is great.
> 
> You can save some money by getting 3rd party RAM. Apple RAM is ridiculously over priced. The consensus seems to be that 3.2ghz 16-core is the sweet spot for audio production.



Looks like an epic machine, I just can't justify the cost. I looked at the Apple RAM prices for the Mac Pro, you are right, insane! $3000 just for 198GB!! The 1.5 TB is only $25K, what a steal!


----------



## Chamberfield

It is tough to justify the cost, but up to this point, I only buy a new Mac every 9 - 10 years so this one should last a while. Plus, I'd rather drive a cheap car and have a fast computer


----------



## JohnG

Chamberfield said:


> I'd rather drive a cheap car and have a fast computer



I’d rather be naked and get a big orchestra at Abbey Road.
Alas, nobody has offered me that particular trade...


----------



## JohnG

Chamberfield said:


> I recently got a 2020 Mac Pro 3.2ghz 16-Core w/128GB RAM, and I feel like I've finally achieved Mac Nirvana. With DP10 and VEP7 it seems I can run as many VIs and plugins as I want in real time with no performance problems. I really is a dream. No more need for master/slave, it's all under one roof which is great.
> 
> You can save some money by getting 3rd party RAM. Apple RAM is ridiculously over priced. The consensus seems to be that 3.2ghz 16-core is the sweet spot for audio production.



That computer -- the 2019 or 2020 16 core 3.2 -- is just the one I was looking at, rebuilt by this guy who rebuilt my 2009 computer. Was thinking about 256GB though. Also using DP10 and VEP7, so "nirvana" sounds pretty great.

What did you use for audio interfaces? I won't be able, I think, to use the 2408mk3s I've used all these years. I am sending into four Digital 192s to get to Pro Tools; suggestions welcome on that front. Naturally would prefer not to replace everything but? maybe have to.

Thanks,

John


----------



## JonS

JohnG said:


> That computer -- the 2019 or 2020 16 core 3.2 -- is just the one I was looking at, rebuilt by this guy who rebuilt my 2009 computer. Was thinking about 256GB though. Also using DP10 and VEP7, so "nirvana" sounds pretty great.
> 
> What did you use for audio interfaces? I won't be able, I think, to use the 2408mk3s I've used all these years. I am sending into four Digital 192s to get to Pro Tools; suggestions welcome on that front. Naturally would prefer not to replace everything but? maybe have to.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> John


Apollo x6 is a great choice and look at the MOTU M64, 112D and 8M. Back in the day I used to own 5 Midi Time Pieces and Video Time piece along with the original 2408.


----------



## Chamberfield

JohnG said:


> That computer -- the 2019 or 2020 16 core 3.2 -- is just the one I was looking at, rebuilt by this guy who rebuilt my 2009 computer. Was thinking about 256GB though. Also using DP10 and VEP7, so "nirvana" sounds pretty great.
> 
> What did you use for audio interfaces? I won't be able, I think, to use the 2408mk3s I've used all these years. I am sending into four Digital 192s to get to Pro Tools; suggestions welcome on that front. Naturally would prefer not to replace everything but? maybe have to.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> John



I guess technically it's the 2019 model, though I purchased in 2020. I was using a MOTU 1296 (from 1999) for my interface, so I decided to upgrade that as well to an Apollo x4, which is awesome. I thought the 1296 sounded fine, until I installed the x4 and I noticed a big bump in sound quality. Plus you get access to all the great UAD plugins.

That's great you have VEP7. Even with this brawny computer, DP10 alone can't handle a lot CPU-heavy VIs and plugins but VEP7 solves that problem. You can't go wrong with 256GB. I'm not doing a lot of huge orchestral scores, so I figured I'd start with 128 and upgrade as necessary.

Also, if you have budget, I'd recommend an internal SSD raid to house all your VIs for extra speed.

p.s. I'm writing/recording everything now at 96k... something that was nearly impossible before. If you prefer to do everything at 44 or 48 then you'll get even better performance.


----------



## Gerd Kaeding

JohnG said:


> ... Was thinking about *256GB* though. ...



Hi John ,
the current Mac Pro has 12 RAM slots, and Apple is advising to configure a memory upgrade like this :

48 GB ( 6 x 8 GB )
96 GB ( 6 x 16 GB )
192GB ( 6 x 32 GB )
384GB ( 6 x 64 GB )
768GB ( 12 x 64 GB )

... etc. . So , a 256GB cofiguration might be possible but is not recommended .


( I decided to install 192 GB . )


Best,
Gerd


----------



## JohnG

Hi @Gerd Kaeding 

Thanks for the tip -- that is important stuff and I had heard but forgotten about the triple RAM issue.

Overall, I think I will wait. My setup works and I don't want to find out in April (or something) that I "shoulda waited, dumbo."

Maybe these new machines will disappoint, maybe not, but if there's no reason to rush I should be patient.


----------



## nas

If you feel like geeking out a little, this may be worth a look. Still mostly educated speculation but nevertheless interesting:


----------



## JohnG

Interesting even though clearly a bit speculative. Intelligent sounding guy.


----------



## Dewdman42

Purely speculative but it is interesting to consider some of the challenges apple faces as they move to the new architecture. Time will tell what apple actually does, I wouldn’t bet on anything just yet.

The interesting thing is that a huge part of the performance boost demonstrated by the M1 is very much related to the consolidated ram. Therein lies the rub though for higher end workstation scenarios where more ram will be needed. Perhaps also higher end video may be a problem as well. If they provide the option for non-consolidated ram in order to provide more of it, a huge performance loss will be experienced compared to the current M1. That is the conundrum. It’s going to be interesting to see how and what apple will do to deliver high end workstation ARM solutions and honestly it’s just way too early to make any predictions.


----------



## JohnG

Dewdman42 said:


> The interesting thing is that a huge part of the performance boost demonstrated by the M1 is very much related to the consolidated ram. Therein lies the rub though for higher end workstation scenarios where more ram will be needed.



I agree -- that IS the rub, given the ludicrous price Apple historically charged for its own RAM. Paying a RAM toll of $5k or more to have their machine will be pretty rough for many to contemplate.

Maybe I can convince myself that "this is the last Mac I ever need to buy!?"


----------



## Dewdman42

Well as before my advice is still to use and love the cheese grater a couple more years and let’s see what happens


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

JohnG said:


> Maybe I can convince myself that "this is the last Mac I ever need to buy!?"



Are you going to steal the others or get them as presents?


----------



## samtrino

Dewdman42 said:


> Well as before my advice is still to use and love the cheese grater a couple more years and let’s see what happens



+1... can’t believe how good my MP5.1 (w/RX580, NVME SSD, and TB3) is running Big Sur... Actually I was surprised how snappy and smooth Big Sur performs compared to Catalina!

This Mac Pro is definitely the best tech investments I ever made.


----------



## JonS

JohnG said:


> I agree -- that IS the rub, given the ludicrous price Apple historically charged for its own RAM. Paying a RAM toll of $5k or more to have their machine will be pretty rough for many to contemplate.
> 
> Maybe I can convince myself that "this is the last Mac I ever need to buy!?"


But a Mac Pro but do not buy RAM from Apple. Pay 75% less and get it at Amazon or other sellers.


----------



## gzapper

Dewdman42 said:


> Purely speculative but it is interesting to consider some of the challenges apple faces as they move to the new architecture. Time will tell what apple actually does, I wouldn’t bet on anything just yet.
> 
> The interesting thing is that a huge part of the performance boost demonstrated by the M1 is very much related to the consolidated ram. Therein lies the rub though for higher end workstation scenarios where more ram will be needed. Perhaps also higher end video may be a problem as well. If they provide the option for non-consolidated ram in order to provide more of it, a huge performance loss will be experienced compared to the current M1. That is the conundrum. It’s going to be interesting to see how and what apple will do to deliver high end workstation ARM solutions and honestly it’s just way too early to make any predictions.



There is something going on with the RAM usage on the M1's out already. Just watched a youtube vid with some guy who ran a very unscientific test of running 48 VI's on one Kontakt channel and playing them all at once. Kontakt only said 1 gig loaded and it barely touched the meters, but there were some bigger libraries loaded. 16 gigs of RAM on an M1 just seems way different than 16 gigs on an intel mac.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

gzapper said:


> There is something going on with the RAM usage on the M1's out already. Just watched a youtube vid with some guy who ran a very unscientific test of running 48 VI's on one Kontakt channel and playing them all at once. Kontakt only said 1 gig loaded and it barely touched the meters, but there were some bigger libraries loaded. 16 gigs of RAM on an M1 just seems way different than 16 gigs on an intel mac.



My guess is that the RAM meters aren't looking for memory built onto the chip.



JonS said:


> But a Mac Pro but do not buy RAM from Apple. Pay 75% less and get it at Amazon or other sellers.



That won't be an option with ARM Macs, because ^^^ it's built onto the chip.


----------



## gzapper

Nick Batzdorf said:


> My guess is that the RAM meters aren't looking for memory built onto the chip.



I dunno, I think there's something else going on. Like the M1 is not putting samples in RAM but just playing them right off of disk. Check this video, 8 gig M1 playing a full Spitfire orch piece. It just shouldn't be able to do it.


----------



## Dewdman42

Well, its built into the M1. However, as the video above pointed out...there are physical restrictions to just how many cores and many GB's of ram can be fitted onto a reasonably sized chip. his speculation is that apple will put some amount of memory onto the chip...right now its 16gb. Maybe if we're lucky they will make a 32gb ARM chip, but we shall see.. But perhaps, he postulated, they will make it possible to run using a combination of the consolidated memory...and perhaps more external memory if you want to expand to 64 to 128gb....or even more like the 2019MP.... he is suggesting that it won't be possible to have that much memory in the consolidated architecture. 

If that is true, then external memory would negate MUCH of the current M1 performance advantage. A huge part of the reason the M1 runs so well is because of integrated GPU and integrated RAM. That cannot be over-stated. We shall see what happens if they try to make an ARM mac that does not have the ram and GPU integrated. As far as I'm concerned its possible that such a thing would under perform current intels. That architectural feature is crucial to the incredible performance being demonstrated by the M1. But..that is also a bit of an Achilles heel in terms of scalability.


----------



## JonS

Nick Batzdorf said:


> My guess is that the RAM meters aren't looking for memory built onto the chip.
> 
> 
> 
> That won't be an option with ARM Macs, because ^^^ it's built onto the chip.


That’s gonna be ridiculously expensive sadly as Apple is a price gouging pirate.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

gzapper said:


> I dunno, I think there's something else going on. Like the M1 is not putting samples in RAM but just playing them right off of disk. Check this video, 8 gig M1 playing a full Spitfire orch piece. It just shouldn't be able to do it.





I can't hear what he's saying (it says muted video, and it is), but then why does Apple sell a 16GB version?


----------



## gzapper

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I can't hear what he's saying (it says muted video, and it is), but then why does Apple sell a 16GB version?



The OP says the piece wasn't his so he didn't want to run audio, its a demo from Spitfire and the session is posted on their site. I wish there was more detail, how many voices, how much is normally loaded into RAM with that template....

But it did say this in the credits:
The playback runs smoothly without any dropouts, even with the high CPU peaks. It's stunning that 11 GB of the SSD storage are used as RAM.

If the M1 can use SSD as RAM that could be a game changer.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

gzapper said:


> If the M1 can use SSD as RAM that could be a game changer.



I don't see how that could be a good thing for sample-streaming performance. The game today is to avoid that happening at all costs!


----------



## gzapper

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I don't see how that could be a good thing for sample-streaming performance. The game today is to avoid that happening at all costs!



The game today is based on computers with massive speed differences between swap memory and RAM. It looks like that difference is much smaller with the M1 but I haven't found any really good tests on that yet. All I know is that my intel macbook pro won't play back VI's without stuttering when its using memory swap but that M1 8gig RAM machine looked like it was handling it pretty well.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

gzapper said:


> The game today is based on computers with massive speed differences between swap memory and RAM.



Simply because RAM is faster than flash memory, no? How can swap memory - which by definition means the drive is being used in place of RAM - be faster than the drive?

It doesn't make sense to me.


----------



## gzapper

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Simply because RAM is faster than flash memory, no? How can swap memory - which by definition means the drive is being used in place of RAM - be faster than the drive?
> 
> It doesn't make sense to me.



Here's a blog post with someone who coded their own test and found that the M1 was able to read files at up to 10 gigs/second on smaller files. That's RAM like speed, isn't it?

https://eclecticlight.co/2020/12/12/how-fast-is-the-ssd-inside-an-m1-mac/


----------



## Dewdman42

gzapper said:


> Here's a blog post with someone who coded their own test and found that the M1 was able to read files at up to 10 gigs/second on smaller files. That's RAM like speed, isn't it?



no.

the ram built into the M1, for starters can get to 32gb/sec. 

Secondly the numbers you quoted from that article had an awful lot of situations noted that were well lower then 10gb/sec... more like 3-4gb/sec. 

All that being said, having a nice fast SSD can allow you to setup your DAW with much much smaller cache size in your sample players...because with high enough SSD performance, its not actually that hard for sample players to STREAM samples from SSD. But try not to think of that as some kind of replacement for RAM. Its not. Its streaming. In order to make do with only 16gb of RAM, make the smallest cache sizes you can for each sample player the supports streaming and stream as much as possible. that will impact the CPU a little bit more then without streaming, but will use less actual RAM. This will not in any way whatsoever replace the performance of your RAM.

Ideally, you could cram every sample into RAM, which will then need much less CPU in order to playback samples since they are already loaded and don't have to be streamed. So that is really the ideal.


----------



## gzapper

Dewdman42 said:


> no.
> 
> the ram built into the M1, for starters can get to 32gb/sec.
> 
> Secondly the numbers you quoted from that article had an awful lot of situations noted that were well lower then 10gb/sec... more like 3-4gb/sec.
> 
> All that being said, having a nice fast SSD can allow you to setup your DAW with much much smaller cache size in your sample players...because with high enough SSD performance, its not actually that hard for sample players to STREAM samples from SSD. But try not to think of that as some kind of replacement for RAM. Its not. Its streaming. In order to make do with only 16gb of RAM, make the smallest cache sizes you can for each sample player the supports streaming and stream as much as possible. that will impact the CPU a little bit more then without streaming, but will use less actual RAM. This will not in any way whatsoever replace the performance of your RAM.
> 
> Ideally, you could cram every sample into RAM, which will then need much less CPU in order to playback samples since they are already loaded and don't have to be streamed. So that is really the ideal.



Thanks for that, Dewdman. I'm still wrapping my head around this and trying to figure out what's going with these M1's and how that fits my particular situation. I've worked mostly in live theatre and modern dance for a couple of decades, where I've just lived with 16 gigs of ram on a macbook pro for a long time to have a rig I can walk in and out with. I had been considering getting an intel mac mini with more ram to run as a VEP server as that's small enough that I could cart it around and set it up in the theatre for a 4 hour call. Then COVID killed that industry for now. So I had been searching this forum to consider getting a pc desktop, but worried about getting stuck working on a machine that can't travel with me should the theatre work come back.

If its not the ssd's speed allowing swap speed to not be critical but instead its the ssd's speed itself being fast enough to stream samples that might still come up with a similar result. A small, quiet machine fast enough to run big, but not massive, templates.

I'm still searching around to see if anyone's loaded a big enough Kontakt or Spitfire session, but so far its a plausible travelling alternative to a big custom built pc rig.


----------



## Dewdman42

we're all waiting to hear back from brave people like you that are willing to give it a try . If you can live with 16gb of ram in general...then it probably should work fine. You can try to play around with streaming...to cram more samples...but that will depend on what software you're using. Not all sample players stream. Kontakt does and you can configure how much to pre-load in order to try to reduce actual RAM usage. Kontakt has other tricks also, you can create your template with all the samples purged initially and only have the samples load into memory on an as need basis..which can also greatly reduce how much ram needed to open your template.

At some point a few daring people will have to pull the trigger on new ARM macs and try out their setups and see how it goes. At this point you are an early adopter...so.. Let us know how it goes if you decide to pull the trigger.


----------



## JyTy

I’m in kinda similar position. Wanted to replace my old MacBook Pro this month... but with what I’m reading about the new chips I think I will be very very sorry if I don’t wait a bit more and see what the upgrade will offer...

But regarding RAM I have a problem paying Apple tons of $$$ for top specs as well, so I’m running most of my libs (except synts) on a Vepro7 powered slave... I paid $600 for refurbished Dell Workstation with 2x 8core Intel Xeon and 128GB of RAM  It can handle a lot of tracks! Especially for the money... you can get even better setup with 256GB of RAM for that price nowadays... so I don’t see any reason why pay thousand of dollars for Mac RAM unless mobility is really supper important to you...


----------



## JohnG

Mishabou said:


> I upgraded to the new MP 2019 a few months ago. It was a big step up from my 2013 12 cores/128GBram....have not had one single crash working on music (LPX, CB10, Live10) and post (PT 2020 running decent size session in 5.1/7.1/Atmos) with lots of plug-ins, all kinds of outboards/synth and controller (Avid S6). The machine is fast, tons of room for expansion and, most important of all, extremely reliable.


Hi Mishabou

are you talking 16 core 3.2GHz, 192 GB of RAM? Or do you mean something else?

Thanks,
John


----------



## José Herring

JyTy said:


> I’m in kinda similar position. Wanted to replace my old MacBook Pro this month... but with what I’m reading about the new chips I think I will be very very sorry if I don’t wait a bit more and see what the upgrade will offer...
> 
> But regarding RAM I have a problem paying Apple tons of $$$ for top specs as well, so I’m running most of my libs (except synts) on a Vepro7 powered slave... I paid $600 for refurbished Dell Workstation with 2x 8core Intel Xeon and 128GB of RAM  It can handle a lot of tracks! Especially for the money... you can get even better setup with 256GB of RAM for that price nowadays... so I don’t see any reason why pay thousand of dollars for Mac RAM unless mobility is really supper important to you...


That's how I feel too. I've been on a two computer setup for so long that I have a hard time with the idea of putting everything on one machine. 

Just built two new PC's and have one as a 99% sample slave and the other daw, synths, ect... Working like a treat. 

I'm looking forward to the new macs because I think I want to go back to working on macs again. That's how I started life and I do miss running mac as my main machine. 

Curious what the Arm chips will bring. So far it's looking good.


----------



## Mishabou

JohnG said:


> Hi Mishabou
> 
> are you talking 16 core 3.2GHz, 192 GB of RAM? Or do you mean something else?
> 
> Thanks,
> John


Hi John,

I'm using a 24 cores 2.7 Ghz/512 GB ram at the studio and 16 cores/256 GB RAM at home. For music, i would say the 16 cores is more than enough for most people. I'm very happy with the purchase, it was a nice step up from my 12 cores cylinder MP and they are super reliable. I've been very busy since the pandemic started, working 8-10 hr/6-7 day/ week since mid march and not a single crash.


----------



## JohnG

Hi @Mishabou _et al._,

I can't wait any longer to replace my Mac Pro. one friend who's a serious composer is urging me to just drop the satellite PCs and go with one big Mac Pro. Right now, I'm using:

1. Mac Pro w/64gb (replacing that);
2. Strings PC: 64GB i9
3. Winds / choir brass PC: 64GB i9
4. Percussion PC: 32 GB, older CPU but very fast; and
5. iMac for Pro Tools.

I was just going to replace the first computer with a 16 core 3.2GHz with 192GB (RAM seems to be multiples of 3, so next one is double that).

Am I making a mistake and should I just buy one big computer and get rid of the complexity? It all works except the Mac Pro seems as though it's had it -- multiple, hard-to-pin-down symptoms but it's going asap.

Thanks,

John


----------



## JonS

JohnG said:


> Hi @Mishabou _et al._,
> 
> I can't wait any longer to replace my Mac Pro. one friend who's a serious composer is urging me to just drop the satellite PCs and go with one big Mac Pro. Right now, I'm using:
> 
> 1. Mac Pro w/64gb (replacing that);
> 2. Strings PC: 64GB i9
> 3. Winds / choir brass PC: 64GB i9
> 4. Percussion PC: 32 GB, older CPU but very fast; and
> 5. iMac for Pro Tools.
> 
> I was just going to replace the first computer with a 16 core 3.2GHz with 192GB (RAM seems to be multiples of 3, so next one is double that).
> 
> Am I making a mistake and should I just buy one big computer and get rid of the complexity? It all works except the Mac Pro seems as though it's had it -- multiple, hard-to-pin-down symptoms but it's going asap.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> John


I agree with your friend, get one Mac Pro with a ton of RAM and get rid of all your satellite PCs.


----------



## jaketanner

Trevor Morris recently did a YT video on his computer and I believe it is now just a single PC though...but it does seem that many are going the route of a single computer rather than multiple. Christian Henson has also moved to one i think with the release of the iMac Pro.

Be warned though that a new Mac Pro with the RAM and cores you require will run you upwards of $6k easy...Provided you buy RAM from a third party of course, as Apple RAM is more money than the actual computer...LOL


----------



## Dewdman42

I don't know whether you will be able to run it all on one machine or not. I think probably yes with enough ram and then you will have lower latency while composing too since no networking hopping over to a VePro slave.

There is one practical consideration worth taking into consideration which is that when you have a VePro-slave setup......even if its just one slave... then you can dedicate that slave to one primary purpose, which is to just sit there with the instruments loaded, ready to rock&roll without having to load anything or be used for any other purpose. You simply load your DP project (without any samples) and point to the VePro slaves and you're ready to go.

When you go to a single computer..yes it simplifies the setup FOR SURE. But now you will find that you tend to reboot it more often because, don't know if this machine will be dedicated for only DP and nothing else or if you will be using it as your primary computer for everything you tend to do beyond DP projects. But you may need to clear out the ram for other stuff or whatever..you don't want to leave VePro running all the time, etc..and basically whenever you load up your 200GB orchestra you'll have to wait for it to load. That alone is probably a good reason to have at least one slave...for your orchestra...while the primary machine with your DAW doesn't have to be that powerful.

sorry to hear you're having so much trouble with your 5,1. :-(


----------



## IFM

JohnG said:


> Hi @Mishabou _et al._,
> 
> I can't wait any longer to replace my Mac Pro. one friend who's a serious composer is urging me to just drop the satellite PCs and go with one big Mac Pro. Right now, I'm using:
> 
> 1. Mac Pro w/64gb (replacing that);
> 2. Strings PC: 64GB i9
> 3. Winds / choir brass PC: 64GB i9
> 4. Percussion PC: 32 GB, older CPU but very fast; and
> 5. iMac for Pro Tools.
> 
> I was just going to replace the first computer with a 16 core 3.2GHz with 192GB (RAM seems to be multiples of 3, so next one is double that).
> 
> Am I making a mistake and should I just buy one big computer and get rid of the complexity? It all works except the Mac Pro seems as though it's had it -- multiple, hard-to-pin-down symptoms but it's going asap.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> John


One big computer, disabled tracks, life is much easier, especially when tweaking.


----------



## Pier

JohnG said:


> Hi @Mishabou _et al._,
> 
> I can't wait any longer to replace my Mac Pro. one friend who's a serious composer is urging me to just drop the satellite PCs and go with one big Mac Pro. Right now, I'm using:
> 
> 1. Mac Pro w/64gb (replacing that);
> 2. Strings PC: 64GB i9
> 3. Winds / choir brass PC: 64GB i9
> 4. Percussion PC: 32 GB, older CPU but very fast; and
> 5. iMac for Pro Tools.
> 
> I was just going to replace the first computer with a 16 core 3.2GHz with 192GB (RAM seems to be multiples of 3, so next one is double that).
> 
> Am I making a mistake and should I just buy one big computer and get rid of the complexity? It all works except the Mac Pro seems as though it's had it -- multiple, hard-to-pin-down symptoms but it's going asap.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> John



Are you using Logic?

Why not go with a single PC beast?


----------



## Wunderhorn

JonS said:


> I agree with your friend, get one Mac Pro with a ton of RAM and get rid of all your satellite PCs.


It's what I did.

It is probably the smoothest solution.
Every now and then though VEP (actually, Kontakt within it) crashes and then it drags down the entire session into the pit of hellfire. So, yes, rebooting will happen more frequently.

My advice: get some cheap internal PCI carrier cards for SSDs and your template will load relatively quickly. It will feel good to not needing external drives to host your libraries.

Also, get your RAM from Nemix or some place like that (cheaper). If you get 192 you can also keep your stock RAM and enjoy 224. It feels good when you can just load instruments and not need to fear that by adding that extra piccolo articulation everything goes pear-shaped.


----------



## dgburns

I replaced my 2010 mp cheesegrator with the 2020 rackmount MP. I got the OWC pcie ssd thingy, the 6000mb/sec ssd card, etc etc....

I kept my three pc slaves, all fairly modestly spec’d. My first thought was to lose the slave PC’s.....boy I’m sure glad I didn’t.

Nothing like working on a real world project to bring it all into perspective.

So, in fairness, my old 2010 owes me nothing, I mean nothing. I put that thing through hell, I beat the crap out of it, and it came back for more. My last big project on that thing was a 6 part one hour mini-series that I foolishly decided was going to be technically very demanding. I got talked into doing it a certain way, which meant an inordinate amount of track freezing etc etc. It made it through, but barely. It was not really ready to move up to 5.1 composing and mixing.

Fast forward to the new MP rackmount. I spent around 15 k cdn all told. Was expecting miracles, got mildly decent performance, but found the upper limit fairly fast ( I was already there with the last project‘s demands technically, which were way above the 2010’s specs )

So all in all, I am happy with the MP2020. It replaces my 2010, but I would NOT recommend trashing the pc slaves just yet. In my situation, it provided increased help to the main DAW, more plugins, more power and all, but it means that I have headroom to add new stuff. I find I rely on the slaves for the orchestral backbone, and the DAW for all the ‘new stuff’, so I’m happy I did not lose the slaves. In fact, I am now strongly considering upgrading my slaves to AMD or something. When Vepro works and is set up, the whole system is just ‘enabling’. You can get down and PRODUCE. 

The myth of the one Mac is still elusive to me. Keep in mind, if one were to be primarily doing pop songs or one-off tunes, sure, one new Mac is probably all you need. Not so for the film composer, IMHO. I relegated my 2010 to my protools rig. So yes, I use a separate Mac for Protools still. I have no plans to change that. In fact I think it is mandatory, for me. Yes, I’ve seen the ‘do it all in one Mac’ guys, like Neil Parfit, but I also like the idea of PT on a different set of monitors too.

Now that we know Apple is going to release yet another Mac Pro with Intel, it seems that the serviceable timeline may still have a few years. I have no doubt the M1 will be glorious. I want others to blaze that trail before I dip in. 

If I were to do it all over again, well maybe upgrading my 2010 to a dual core with 128 gig memory would have gotten me ‘in the ballpark’ for alot less, until the M1 made it to primetime, I still feel pretty good about the MP 2020.

Again, in a real world scoring situation, it just purred and I did not get close to halfway cpu use. Bottom line, I could undertake just about any project and know that the thing will not fall down on me. It’s quiet, built like a tank, and just inspires confidence. I know I will eventually consistently hit the upper limit cpu wise, but then again, in my current projects, I have hit about halfway without freezing anything. That’s pretty comfortable.


----------



## Rory

It sounds like John doesn't have the leisure of time, but those who do should familiarise themselves with current expectations for Mac computer rollout. Marques Brownlee uploaded this last night. It's based on articles that Mark Gurman published in Bloomberg on Friday. There are links to the articles, and a timestamp for the video, in the YouTube description:


----------



## Lee Blaske

JohnG said:


> Hi @Mishabou _et al._,
> 
> I can't wait any longer to replace my Mac Pro. one friend who's a serious composer is urging me to just drop the satellite PCs and go with one big Mac Pro. Right now, I'm using:
> 
> 1. Mac Pro w/64gb (replacing that);
> 2. Strings PC: 64GB i9
> 3. Winds / choir brass PC: 64GB i9
> 4. Percussion PC: 32 GB, older CPU but very fast; and
> 5. iMac for Pro Tools.
> 
> I was just going to replace the first computer with a 16 core 3.2GHz with 192GB (RAM seems to be multiples of 3, so next one is double that).
> 
> Am I making a mistake and should I just buy one big computer and get rid of the complexity? It all works except the Mac Pro seems as though it's had it -- multiple, hard-to-pin-down symptoms but it's going asap.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> John


Last year, I went from two 12 core 2013 Mac Pro trashcans to a single 2019 Mac Pro 24 core machine with 256Gb of RAM, and it's been working like a dream. It's a true luxury to have everything on one machine, and to not have to worry about keeping software on two machines up-to-date. The construction of the 2019 Mac Pro is top notch. I bought a refurb from Apple. Sale of my two previous machines paid a major chunk of the new machine. Apple resale value holds up pretty well, so even if I upgrade to a Mac with Apple silicon when the dust settles, I'd expect to get a lot of my investment back. And, I expect it'll be a significant amount of time before that new machine is out, and before the dust does settle. Remember HOW LONG it took before the 2019 NMP came out? I don't think there's any point to waiting if you have a need for the machine now.


----------



## darthdeus

Personally I bought an M1 MacBook Pro with 16GB RAM and 2TB SSD about 1 minute after it was released and have been using it since, while simultaneously using my 64GB RAM Windows 10 desktop. Here's a few thoughts on the M1:

- Logic runs nicely, things are mostly fast.
- Kontakt is probably the biggest issue atm ... it works, but I can definitely run into "System Overload" if i don't think through what I'm doing.
- Omnisphere runs fine, Spitfire as well (despite them saying it doesn't work at all).
- There's definitely a performance difference between my desktop and my MacBook, but I can't imagine having a different "small laptop" that would perform much better.
- If you're starting out, it's imo more than enough.
- The SSD is very fast, things load fast, and even shitty things under Rosetta 2 (like Kontakt) run reasonably fast.
- In case it's relevant to you, Final Cut Pro X runs amazing (for [email protected]).
- I'll be definitely buying an iMac (or the new rumored MacPro) with Apple Silicon when it releases later this year as the expectations are way better performance.

I'd say if you can wait, don't buy Intel, wait for the next desktop batch of Apple Silicon. It's amazing what performance you get in a small shitty ultrabook running things under Rosetta, and once things like Kontakt run natively on Apple Silicon, and once the next batch of desktop grade CPUs get released, I'd expect them to just completely destroy any Intel alternative. Honestly even M1 destroys most intel CPUs in comparison, and it's just the first and smallest of the lineup.


----------



## JohnG

Hi guys,

Thanks so much for all the suggestions, comments, advice, and videos etc. I think if there's a consensus, it's not to skimp on RAM.

Regarding whether to go with One Computer or keep the satellite PCs, I'm going to do both, in a way; get enough RAM so that I could put it all on one machine eventually, but hang on to the PCs in the short term. For one thing, I have a few things lined up and it will take a long time to move everything over and get it woven together. And besides, until the PCs get hopelessly obsolete or break or something, they work fine.

To answer one question from @Pier , I use Digital Performer, which does come in a PC version but I like the Mac ecosystem.

Thanks again -- super helpful and thanks for the emails from a couple of people as well.

Kind regards,

John


----------



## Mishabou

JohnG said:


> Hi @Mishabou _et al._,
> 
> I can't wait any longer to replace my Mac Pro. one friend who's a serious composer is urging me to just drop the satellite PCs and go with one big Mac Pro. Right now, I'm using:
> 
> 1. Mac Pro w/64gb (replacing that);
> 2. Strings PC: 64GB i9
> 3. Winds / choir brass PC: 64GB i9
> 4. Percussion PC: 32 GB, older CPU but very fast; and
> 5. iMac for Pro Tools.
> 
> I was just going to replace the first computer with a 16 core 3.2GHz with 192GB (RAM seems to be multiples of 3, so next one is double that).
> 
> Am I making a mistake and should I just buy one big computer and get rid of the complexity? It all works except the Mac Pro seems as though it's had it -- multiple, hard-to-pin-down symptoms but it's going asap.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> John


As mentioned, i use a 2019 MP 24 core at the studio and 16 core at home. Everything in one machine, including PT. I kept my slaves just in case but have not needed them so they will be sold next month.

As suggested, you should keep your slaves for now and see if one machine is enough for your needs and workflow.

I'm collaborating on a project with a composer who just down size from a 6 slaves + 2 x Mac pro trash can to one single 28 cores MP rack mount, 768 Gb ram, 32 TB M.2 raid 0 for library.
He writes mostly orchestral and always massage/mix his music/sounds as he goes, everything is done in 5.1/7.1. Videos are in Prores/4K played through the AJA card. He also use a 24 ch Avid S6.

If you need to work now, go for it, the new MP is a great machine.


----------



## JonS

Mishabou said:


> As mentioned, i use a 2019 MP 24 core at the studio and 16 core at home. Everything in one machine, including PT. I kept my slaves just in case but have not needed them so they will be sold next month.
> 
> As suggested, you should keep your slaves for now and see if one machine is enough for your needs and workflow.
> 
> I'm collaborating on a project with a composer who just down size from a 6 slaves + 2 x Mac pro trash can to one single 28 cores MP rack mount, 768 Gb ram, 32 TB M.2 raid 0 for library.
> He writes mostly orchestral and always massage/mix his music/sounds as he goes, everything is done in 5.1/7.1. Videos are in Prores/4K played through the AJA card. He also use a 24 ch Avid S6.
> 
> If you need to work now, go for it, the new MP is a great machine.


Though these prices are much higher than they should be, (John, always buy your Mac from the Apple Education pricing store since you are a student of life and they don't validate anything) $9,739 for an 16-core 2019 Mac Pro with 8TB SSD NVMe internal or $14,239 for a 28-core 2019 Mac Pro with 8TB SSD NVMe internal plus (6) 64GB DDR4-2933Mhz PC4-23400 LRDIMM (384GB RAM) at $1,790 plus tax from Amazon is not a terrible deal. If you remember how expensive it was to buy a rack of Roland/Akai/Kurzweil samplers, synths and Lexicon reverb hardware boxes back in the 1990s, then having an ITB setup with one expensive 2019 Mac Pro is not so horrible pricing wise. The modern day studio for a composer is no where near as expensive as it was in the 1990s. Today, one could spend $100,000 and own every VI sample library from every major developer and every single plugin too and still have plenty of money to buy a fully loaded 2019 Mac Pro along with some outboard mic pres, compressors and eqs and a nice set of microphones and speakers. The equivalent would have been $300,000 to $500,000 in the 1990s. The cost of entry to be in this biz is so much cheaper than it used to be, so though Apple over charges for its computers, the 2019 Mac Pro is replacing a huge amount of hardware gear.


----------



## Kevinside

Intel is EOL at the Apple World... Sure, you can use them a long time and you can install Windows, if the new Macos is not supported...But the truth is, Apple´s own Chips are the future and the new Mac Pro with Apple´s own Chip Design will come...


----------



## Pier

Kevinside said:


> Intel is EOL at the Apple World... Sure, you can use them a long time and you can install Windows, if the new Macos is not supported...But the truth is, Apple´s own Chips are the future and the new Mac Pro with Apple´s own Chip Design will come...


Obviously Apple will keep supporting Intel for a couple of years. It supported PowerPC until Lion which was released in 2011, 4-5 years after the first Intel Mac.

At some point it will pull the plug though. I guess it all depends how long one expects the investment on a Mac Pro to last.

Maybe Apple will even sell upgrade kits for the Mac Pros from Intel to ARM.

Edit:

Actually the first OS that dropped support for PowerPC CPUs was Snow Leopard in 2009. They kept Rosetta around until the release of Lion.


----------



## JohnG

I am skeptical about the assumption that you can put 200-400 GB of RAM into the M1-style "all in one" configuration. Maybe they will, but it's not going to be this month!

Right now, I have work and I'm frustrated with what's going on. It may just be too old a machine with newer OS / software, or something to do with interfaces. Either way, I'm going to buy something soon.

Don't get me wrong; I realise it's a bad time to be buying, but I have to fix the writing / tinkering ratio and I can't put it off.

Thanks for the suggestions and knowledge. It's amazing how much people collectively know about all this.


----------



## charlieclouser

JohnG said:


> I am skeptical about the assumption that you can put 200-400 GB of RAM into the M1-style "all in one" configuration. Maybe they will.
> 
> Besides, I have work and I'm frustrated with what's going on. It may just be too old a machine with newer OS / software, or something to do with interfaces. Either way, I'm going to buy something soon.


Yes, it appears for the moment that Apple is leveraging their super-fast internal SSDs on the M1, and MacOS "swap" (aka "virtual memory") capabilities, as a stopgap for the lower (and fixed) on-chip RAM in the M1. That's what people seem to be seeing as they analyze the performance of the current M1 models, and for non-streaming-sample situations it might be just fine. But serious Kontakt templates seem to really like having gobs of physical RAM, so I agree that you really want to be able to keep hammering "add to cart" on the RAM page and spool up the numbers to ludicrous amounts.

It might take a while (or never) for future Apple Silicon Mac Pros to have sky-high RAM limits. For all we know their planned top of the line machine will have 128 cores but be limited to 128gb of on-chip RAM, with no ability to shove a dozen cheap sticks in there. Until those plans become clear it is not unreasonable to get one more round of Intel machines and stack up the DIMMs. 

Maybe someday we'll look back at the $15k 28-core machine with the same head-shaking reaction that we now look back at mirror-door G4 machines, but.....


----------



## Dewdman42

I agree John, Its going to be years until there is an ARM Mac capable of large ram. If you can justify $10k or more investment to get through the next couple years, then its not a bad path.


----------



## gzapper

charlieclouser said:


> Yes, it appears for the moment that Apple is leveraging their super-fast internal SSDs on the M1, and MacOS "swap" (aka "virtual memory") capabilities, as a stopgap for the lower (and fixed) on-chip RAM in the M1. That's what people seem to be seeing as they analyze the performance of the current M1 models, and for non-streaming-sample situations it might be just fine. But serious Kontakt templates seem to really like having gobs of physical RAM, so I agree that you really want to be able to keep hammering "add to cart" on the RAM page and spool up the numbers to ludicrous amounts.
> 
> It might take a while (or never) for future Apple Silicon Mac Pros to have sky-high RAM limits. For all we know their planned top of the line machine will have 128 cores but be limited to 128gb of on-chip RAM, with no ability to shove a dozen cheap sticks in there. Until those plans become clear it is not unreasonable to get one more round of Intel machines and stack up the DIMMs.
> 
> Maybe someday we'll look back at the $15k 28-core machine with the same head-shaking reaction that we now look back at mirror-door G4 machines, but.....


Reading this thread I popped over to the Apple Canada site, where you can get a refurbished mac pro for only $56,000. Granted it does come with 1.5 TB ram and two video cards...








Refurbished Mac Pro 2.5GHz 28-core Intel Xeon W, Two Radeon Pro Vega II Duo, Apple Afterburner


Originally released December 2019 2.5GHz 12‑core Intel Xeon W processor, Turbo Boost up to 4.4GHz 1.5TB (12x128GB) of DDR4 ECC memory Two Radeon Pro Vega II with 32GB of HBM2 memory each 8TB SSD storage Stainless steel frame with feet Apple Afterburner



www.apple.com


----------



## Kevinside

First the last OS for PPC was Leopard... After that it was over... Then Snow leopard introduced us into the Intel world, which was the last OS for their Core Solo and Duo machines...
Apple is fast with cutting off old hardware...

Second... When Apple will come with the new Mac Pro with their own chips, the design won´t be the same like the actual M1... Ram and CPU are definitly seperated to garantee an ammount of normal single cpu Intel workstations... (1.5 TB Ram as the actual 24 Core Macpro)...Maybe Apple brings dual CPU Sockets, where 3TB Ram is possible....
I know...all rumours for now and specualtion.... But Apples own Chip Workstation will blow the Intel one out of the water...

The best thing... all the big audio companies go the apple route... Everybody is porting their software to Apples new architecture... The best thing... Rosetta2 just works in the most cases...

I am happy with my actual Mac Pro, but my next investment will be in the new one, which will come...


----------



## Pier

Kevinside said:


> First the last OS for PPC was Leopard... After that it was over... Then Snow leopard introduced us into the Intel world, which was the last OS for their Core Solo and Duo machines...
> Apple is fast with cutting off old hardware...


You're right!

Lion was the first OS without support for PowerPC *apps*.


----------



## colony nofi

Heard from good authority that there is one more go-around with apple mac pro's and intel still to come. The intel based systems will be supported for 5 to 7 years. A very large vfx house is doing a high 6 / low 7 figure apple purchase based on this info.

There well may be a mid tier mac pro like system using m series chips even before the last intel mac pro is produced. There seems to be a lot of rumors around about this - and fairly robust reports regarding supply chain considerations.


----------



## nas

JohnG said:


> I am skeptical about the assumption that you can put 200-400 GB of RAM into the M1-style "all in one" configuration. Maybe they will, but it's not going to be this month!
> 
> Right now, I have work and I'm frustrated with what's going on. It may just be too old a machine with newer OS / software, or something to do with interfaces. Either way, I'm going to buy something soon.
> 
> Don't get me wrong; I realise it's a bad time to be buying, but I have to fix the writing / tinkering ratio and I can't put it off.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions and knowledge. It's amazing how much people collectively know about all this.


You should just go for it and get what you need now if it's critical and you cannot wait. I am holding off for the new M1X iMacs and Mac Pros but those may not even show up until July if not later. My understanding is, however, that Apple may still manufacture a MacPro with Intel chips and will also release that in late 2021. Whether this is true or not I can't say - it's all speculation but even if you invest in a powerful Intel Mac it will certainly fulfill your needs. The only thing to consider is that it's looking like the Apple chips will give you much more power and bang for the buck, while you may have to spend up to 10k-12k for a very powerful Intel Mac Pro. that can handle what you throw at it - even with third party RAM, SSD's, etc..


----------



## JohnG

nas said:


> The only thing to consider is that it's looking like the Apple chips will give you much more power and bang for the buck, while you may have to spend up to 10k-12k for a very powerful Intel Mac Pro. that can handle what you throw at it - even with third party RAM, SSD's, etc..


You’re probably right. Would rather wait but have to move on.


----------



## Al Maurice

Whatever happens much of the high-end applications for now, are going to need to be run under emulation mode. Much is yet to be ported over, so anything that does run that way, will not be as performant as under native code. Knowing what DAWs are like, we might be waiting for a while, yet alone until they come up with a spec that supports larger RAM allowances.

Hopefully the wait won't be for too long, but who knows.


----------



## IFM

Al Maurice said:


> Whatever happens much of the high-end applications for now, are going to need to be run under emulation mode. Much is yet to be ported over, so anything that does run that way, will not be as performant as under native code. Knowing what DAWs are like, we might be waiting for a while, yet alone until they come up with a spec that supports larger RAM allowances.
> 
> Hopefully the wait won't be for too long, but who knows.


Steinberg at least does have a chart that shows what overall stage development is in and right now it shows Cubase for Apple Silicon as "testing" so that's at least something. MOTU is probably the slowest at updates though.


----------



## dgburns

@JohnG did you get it yet ?? 

( ya know ya wanna...)


----------



## Saxer

I got a Hackintosh three month ago. 12core 128GB. I simply migrated my system and spent a day reactivating and updating all plugins (to Catalina now). I needed two USB-C to Thunderbolt cables and that's all. All USB and Thunderbolt hardware runs like before. It emulates an iMacPro.

I thought about a MacPro too but the same configuration would have been 10000€ more(!) expensive. A real Mac looks better but I have a machine room anyway. The system is probably frozen to Catalina but I think it's a good machine for now until all the plugins run natively on Apple silicon.


----------



## JohnG

dgburns said:


> @JohnG did you get it yet ??


Yep.


----------



## JonS

JohnG said:


> You’re probably right. Would rather wait but have to move on.


Another significantly cheaper way to go is to get (2) 2020 iMac 3.6Ghz 10-core 10 Gigabit Ethernet 8TB SSD NVMe internal ($4,709 each plus tax) plus 128GB RAM for each iMac from Amazon at around $500 per iMac. This is a total of $10,418 plus tax and in the end you would have a total of 20 cores, 256GB of RAM (which you can easily install yourself) and 16TB of SSD NVMe of internal fast storage across 2 iMacs. I think having everything under one Mac Pro computer is more ideal but you pay a lot more for that too. God forbid the Mac Pro goes down you are completely down whereas if only one of the two iMacs goes down for whatever reason, you have the other iMac already good to go. I suggest if you have the money to get a loaded Mac Pro and buy your RAM not from Apple.


----------



## dzilizzi

gzapper said:


> Reading this thread I popped over to the Apple Canada site, where you can get a refurbished mac pro for only $56,000. Granted it does come with 1.5 TB ram and two video cards...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Refurbished Mac Pro 2.5GHz 28-core Intel Xeon W, Two Radeon Pro Vega II Duo, Apple Afterburner
> 
> 
> Originally released December 2019 2.5GHz 12‑core Intel Xeon W processor, Turbo Boost up to 4.4GHz 1.5TB (12x128GB) of DDR4 ECC memory Two Radeon Pro Vega II with 32GB of HBM2 memory each 8TB SSD storage Stainless steel frame with feet Apple Afterburner
> 
> 
> 
> www.apple.com


I see this and I wonder how fast I can fill it up. I do really well filling up an SSD.

So what did you end up with? A stopgap or something that will go for while?


----------



## JohnG

dzilizzi said:


> So what did you end up with? A stopgap or something that will go for while?


Hi @dzilizzi

I fixed on a 16 core with 1TB boot drive and one of the OWC 8TB drives for samples. I can still use two of my SATA SSDs internally, it appears, but either way it should do the trick. 384 GB of RAM. Maybe overkill, but I can't remember ever regretting buying extra RAM and it's just not that costly.

Two pretty hot-shot pals advised me that this computer is more than sufficient to run everything. Nevertheless, I am keeping the satellite PCs as well for the time being. They add numerous additional cores and they are a sunk cost. Besides, moving all that over -- ugh. Some day.


----------



## JohnG

Thanks again, everyone. I really value the variety of opinions and certainly acknowledge that many here were urging me to wait. If I could, I would.

This forum can be pretty great. Thanks.


----------



## dzilizzi

JohnG said:


> Hi @dzilizzi
> 
> I fixed on a 16 core with 1TB boot drive and one of the OWC 8TB drives for samples. I can still use two of my SATA SSDs internally, it appears, but either way it should do the trick. 384 GB of RAM. Maybe overkill, but I can't remember ever regretting buying extra RAM and it's just not that costly.
> 
> Two pretty hot-shot pals advised me that this computer is more than sufficient to run everything. Nevertheless, I am keeping the satellite PCs as well for the time being. They add numerous additional cores and they are a sunk cost. Besides, moving all that over -- ugh. Some day.


That sounds really great. It amazes me how much RAM you can get on these machines. I'm setting up my first VEP template and I notice how fast the RAM is filling up. 

I think I am jealous.....


----------



## nas

JohnG said:


> Hi @dzilizzi
> 
> I fixed on a 16 core with 1TB boot drive and one of the OWC 8TB drives for samples. I can still use two of my SATA SSDs internally, it appears, but either way it should do the trick. 384 GB of RAM. Maybe overkill, but I can't remember ever regretting buying extra RAM and it's just not that costly.
> 
> Two pretty hot-shot pals advised me that this computer is more than sufficient to run everything. Nevertheless, I am keeping the satellite PCs as well for the time being. They add numerous additional cores and they are a sunk cost. Besides, moving all that over -- ugh. Some day.



I think you've hit the sweet spot with your specs and you will be very pleased. Best of luck.


----------



## cchristensson

When you are up and running I would love to hear how it works out and how DP likes it!


----------



## JohnG

cchristensson said:


> When you are up and running I would love to hear how it works out and how DP likes it!


sure thing!


----------



## dgburns

And to all the hackintoshers, gotta say, while I really contemplated going AMD hackintosh - a few months into the MP experience and it is a surprisingly good feeling to know I continue in the ecosystem in a legit way. Maybe the biggest boon to going MP there is IMHO.


----------



## storyteller

When you are running a massively large template and have access to this much ram, does it make sense to increase the Kontakt buffer or even load all samples into ram to really increase performance? Thoughts? We’ve all been so limited on ram with even the smallest Kontakt buffers for large templates that I am really curious at the possibility of loading more into ram...


----------



## Dewdman42

I don't think you're going to see drastic improvements in performance by increasing the ram, unless you're on an older machine, then you may NEED to increase the ram in order to avoid dropouts. If you aren't getting drop outs now, I doubt you would see any benefit to increasing the ram size...and you will increase your load times by doing that. Try it and see.


----------



## jemu999

JohnG said:


> Thanks again, everyone. I really value the variety of opinions and certainly acknowledge that many here were urging me to wait. If I could, I would.
> 
> This forum can be pretty great. Thanks.


Hey John, Im essentially in the same predicament and am thinking about purchasing the exact same Mac. Have you had a chance to put your 16 core Mac Pro to work yet? Any thoughts about performance and your thoughts now that you own it would be greatly appreciated...


----------



## storyteller

Count me in as one more in the same situation. Would love to hear feedback too!


----------



## edhamilton

same ...... still starring at the refurb page on apples site. 
trashbin isn't cutting it.


----------



## JohnG

jemu999 said:


> Hey John, Im essentially in the same predicament and am thinking about purchasing the exact same Mac. Have you had a chance to put your 16 core Mac Pro to work yet? Any thoughts about performance and your thoughts now that you own it would be greatly appreciated...


Hi guys -- sorry I can't give any update, as I'm still waiting to receive it. Ordered on the 19th but hasn't actually shipped yet; I'm guessing there is a bit of a lag because of Covid, although that is pure speculation.

I've heard that this machine in this configuration (16 core, 384 GB of RAM) is being used by a couple of superstar composers. However, again, I don't have any way to confirm that.

Kind regards,

John


----------



## JonS

JohnG said:


> Hi guys -- sorry I can't give any update, as I'm still waiting to receive it. Ordered on the 19th but hasn't actually shipped yet; I'm guessing there is a bit of a lag because of Covid, although that is pure speculation.
> 
> I've heard that this machine in this configuration (16 core, 384 GB of RAM) is being used by a couple of superstar composers. However, again, I don't have any way to confirm that.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> John


How exciting!!


----------



## Dewdman42

I'm excited for you JohnG, and a little jealous!


----------



## PeterKorcek

I would go for 16-core as well - great multi-core and single-core speed is not that bad (3.2).
I had trashcan before, even though some people hate it, it was extremely reliable for me and I image that the new Xeon processors are the same, if not better.
PCIe slots are just amazing for future-proofing, I am a bit worried about software updates, but it should work fine for a couple of years I guess.
And the silence! If it's true that they are really silent during workloads, that is amazing, I cannot stand noisy machines anymore, somehow


----------



## stigc56

Well this thread has made me think about buying a Mac Pro 2019 as well. I will go for the 16 core, but I reckon, that 192 GBr would be sufficient. Am I right here? And the 1TB internal. I have seen several rackunits advertised for at lower price, would you recommend that?
Also is it right that my 4 Samsung SSD in my Blackmagic Thunderbolt can go inside by the help of ex. this:https://www.sonnetstore.com/products/fusion-dual-2-5-inch-ssd-raid?


----------



## wonshu

I'd wait to see what Apple offers as an M1 in a Pro format.

IntelMacs prices will drop like a rock, you can still get one then... One of those re-buy outfits offered my € 1050,- for my 2019 MacBookPro at the end of January. Now (two weeks later), they're offering 850,-

I'm selling it because I ordered an M1 MBA - I don't want fans anymore on a laptop. Ever. And the laptop is only for office work and the occasional Logic song (slaved via MIDI timecode) that has nothing but DX-FX-MX and a movie file for reference.


----------



## TiagoG

JonS said:


> Another significantly cheaper way to go is to get (2) 2020 iMac 3.6Ghz 10-core 10 Gigabit Ethernet 8TB SSD NVMe internal ($4,709 each plus tax) plus 128GB RAM for each iMac from Amazon at around $500 per iMac. This is a total of $10,418 plus tax and in the end you would have a total of 20 cores, 256GB of RAM (which you can easily install yourself) and 16TB of SSD NVMe of internal fast storage across 2 iMacs. I think having everything under one Mac Pro computer is more ideal but you pay a lot more for that too. God forbid the Mac Pro goes down you are completely down whereas if only one of the two iMacs goes down for whatever reason, you have the other iMac already good to go. I suggest if you have the money to get a loaded Mac Pro and buy your RAM not from Apple.





JohnG said:


> Hi @dzilizzi
> 
> I fixed on a 16 core with 1TB boot drive and one of the OWC 8TB drives for samples. I can still use two of my SATA SSDs internally, it appears, but either way it should do the trick. 384 GB of RAM. Maybe overkill, but I can't remember ever regretting buying extra RAM and it's just not that costly.
> 
> Two pretty hot-shot pals advised me that this computer is more than sufficient to run everything. Nevertheless, I am keeping the satellite PCs as well for the time being. They add numerous additional cores and they are a sunk cost. Besides, moving all that over -- ugh. Some day.


Pardon my noob question, but how do you guys combine the processing power of the two machines but still only run one operating system? I did some googling but it got too technical too soon! Is this something only engineers should even attempt? Can you do it on both PC and Mac?

Thanks


----------



## dzilizzi

TiagoG said:


> Pardon my noob question, but how do you guys combine the processing power of the two machines but still only run one operating system? I did some googling but it got too technical too soon! Is this something only engineers should even attempt? Can you do it on both PC and Mac?
> 
> Thanks


I just starting using Vienna Ensemble Pro to do it. I have two machines that are maxed out at 64GB RAM, so it allows me to run half my libraries on one computer and half on the other. The template building has been interesting.


----------



## Vik

JohnG said:


> Hi guys -- sorry I can't give any update, as I'm still waiting to receive it. Ordered on the 19th but hasn't actually shipped yet; I'm guessing there is a bit of a lag because of Covid, although that is pure speculation.


Congratulations! Let's hope it will arrive before a medium sized, M2 based Mac Pro with the same specs and half the price is announced


----------



## JonS

TiagoG said:


> Pardon my noob question, but how do you guys combine the processing power of the two machines but still only run one operating system? I did some googling but it got too technical too soon! Is this something only engineers should even attempt? Can you do it on both PC and Mac?
> 
> Thanks


VSL makes a host mixing networking software called Vienna Ensemble and Vienna Ensemble Pro. This software allows one to connect multiple PC or Mac computers through ethernet so that one can host virtual instrument sample libraries and fx plugins on separate computers while all networked together.

Vienna Ensemble Pro has become the definitive cross-platform network solution in studios and production facilities around the world. This mixing and hosting application enables you to set up a multiple computer network with both Macs and PCs without the need for extra MIDI and audio interfaces – all you need is a simple Ethernet cable! Even when you’re using only one computer, Vienna Ensemble Pro improves your work-flow dramatically, with unique functions such as “Preserve” that keeps all your plug-ins and samples loaded while switching from one project to another – a huge time saver!






VIENNA ENSEMBLE PRO 7 - Vienna Symphonic Library


Vienna Ensemble Pro has become the definitive cross-platform network solution in studios and production facilities around the world. This mixing and hosting application enables you to set up a multiple computer network with both Macs and PCs.




www.vsl.co.at





Vienna Ensemble Pro supports our own sample players as well as all of your third-party VST/AU instruments and effects plug-ins and mix them in stereo and surround (up to 7.1), with full parameter automation and optional one-click integration with Vienna MIR Pro. What’s more, with the included Epic Orchestra 2.0 Sample Pack you get a powerful all-in-one production tool to get you started right away!

All Features - Overview​*Existing Features*

Cross-platform MIDI and audio LAN solution for Macs and PCs.
No audio interfaces, no MIDI interfaces on your additional networked computers – All you need is Ethernet with a Gigabit connection.
AU/VST (Mac) and VST (PC) hosting – Instantiate any VSL and 3rd party VST and AU plug-ins (works with nearly all available VST/AU plug-ins and supports multiple outputs).
Preserve Instance – Disconnect Vienna Ensemble Pro from your sequencer while keeping all of your instruments and samples loaded, and re-connect to a new cue or project without loading again.
Full surround support up to 7.1 with integrated plug-ins for surround-to-surround balancing and mono/stereo-to-surround.
Frozen/Disabled channels allow unloading all plug-ins (including their allocated memory) from a selected channel, while keeping data intact
Channel grouping allows assigning channels to a group, with option to link selected parameters to the entire group
Windows only: Dual architecture servers – Run 64-bit and 32-bit Vienna Ensemble Pro Servers side-by-side on the same computer and integrate 32-bit 3rd party instruments into your 64-bit DAW and vice versa.
VST3/AAX Native/MAS connector plug-ins – Supports up to 48 MIDI ports and 768 audio ports per instance.
VST hosting on the Mac, allowing for full compatibility with Windows
Audio input plug-in – Route audio signals from your DAW into Vienna Ensemble Pro, e.g., to turn it into a virtual FX rack on your networked computer.
Optimize All – Clean up your RAM by purging all unused samples of all instantiated Vienna Instruments with one mouse click!
Plug-in latency compensation ensures full sync of all plug-ins inside each Vienna Ensemble Pro instance.
Optional one-click integration of Vienna MIR Pro (sold separately).
AU/AU3/VST/VST3/AAX Native/MAS plug-in or stand-alone.
*New Features*

Included FX Plug-ins – A selection of powerful plug-ins, based on Vienna Suite Pro, with convenient GUI displays embedded in the mixer channel view: Compressor Pro, Equalizer Pro, Exciter Pro, Limiter Pro, Analyzer Pro.
Pro versions of our surround-specific plug-ins: Matrix Mixer Pro, Surround Balance Pro, Surround Pan Pro.
Simplified Automation – Detailed clear names of all automatable parameters available in Vienna Ensemble Pro and all inserted plug-ins.
Instance CPU Usage – Realtime read-out of the specific CPU load
Instance MIDI/Audio activity – Better overview, easy to observe and to control MIDI and audio activity
Vertical Instance List – For a quicker overview of all available instances (in addition to the tabbed view)
Favorites Manager – Create a list of your go-to plug-ins (FX/instruments)
Favorites (auto-populated) – Always see your recently most used plug-ins on top of your plug-in list
Customize Plug-in use in the Vienna Ensemble Pro Preferences
Improved Plug-in Scanning for a smoother experience with troublesome or incompatible plug-ins
Instance disabling (automatable)
Folder disabling (automatable)
Copy/paste channels – For flexible template adaptations (Comm. C/V, Ctrl C/V)
Instant Server Discovery – Reliable server detection, also in complex situations
Faster connection/disconnection from VE Pro Server/instances
Faster saving times – Instance data is compressed/decompressed to increase saving speed with demanding plug-ins like NI Kontakt.
Articulation Display – The currently playing articulation is displayed directly in the channel (works for Vienna Synchron Player, Vienna Instruments Player, Vienna Instruments Pro Player).
Missing Patches are indicated by a red frame (works for Vienna Synchron Player, Vienna Instruments Player, Vienna Instruments Pro Player).
FX Mini GUI Displays - Watch some of your integrated FX plug-ins right in the channel view.

* You need one Vienna Ensemble Pro 7 license per computer. For example, if you have two computers, one main and one secondary machine, you need just one license if you’re running one or more instances of Vienna Ensemble Pro 7 on your networked computer only. If you’re running one or more instances of Vienna Ensemble Pro on both your master and networked machines, you need two licenses. Also, each computer requires one ViennaKey for authorization.


----------



## gives19

JohnG said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Some time in 2021 I want to replace my Mac Pro, as it's now 11 years old. Even though it's been upgraded very substantially, I think I'd like to look at what's available.
> 
> I might go for another refurbished one from the guy who did this one. It has worked for five or six years (can't remember) and cost far less than new. Plus less "new hardware" risk.
> 
> Regarding a new machine, I know there are all these changes in the offing -- Catalina seems probably (?) settled in, but the CPU chips and all that are changing. I can't afford (in more ways than one) to rely on not-yet-proven technology to meet deadlines.
> 
> What do you guys think? I used to buy RAM from 3d parties for Mac. On that subject I'd want at least 64GB maybe 128(?). At least a 3.46 clock speed (the current one). Not sure about how many cores really help and I know opinion is divided.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> John


I would, (depending on what you actually need for your workflow), an M1 Mac mini. A lot of my composer pals in LA are using those and selling their new iMacs, which spec out to be not a good from their perspective. If it were me, and you are wanting a Mac Pro, I would wait until the newer Mac Pro arrives. If you are not a working pro, that might be a good thing to do. That is what I am doing and am still doing fine with my Mac Pro 6 Core with 64GB of Ram. I do a lot of post production here as well and never have a problem with the series I am doing with my old Mac Pro
3.5GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon E5 I got in 2014.


----------



## gives19

Vik said:


> Congratulations! Let's hope it will arrive before a medium sized, M2 based Mac Pro with the same specs and half the price is announced


That's my plan.


----------



## TiagoG

JonS said:


> VSL makes a host mixing networking software called Vienna Ensemble and Vienna Ensemble Pro. This software allows one to connect multiple PC or Mac computers through ethernet so that one can host virtual instrument sample libraries and fx plugins on separate computers while all networked together.
> 
> Vienna Ensemble Pro has become the definitive cross-platform network solution in studios and production facilities around the world. This mixing and hosting application enables you to set up a multiple computer network with both Macs and PCs without the need for extra MIDI and audio interfaces – all you need is a simple Ethernet cable! Even when you’re using only one computer, Vienna Ensemble Pro improves your work-flow dramatically, with unique functions such as “Preserve” that keeps all your plug-ins and samples loaded while switching from one project to another – a huge time saver!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VIENNA ENSEMBLE PRO 7 - Vienna Symphonic Library
> 
> 
> Vienna Ensemble Pro has become the definitive cross-platform network solution in studios and production facilities around the world. This mixing and hosting application enables you to set up a multiple computer network with both Macs and PCs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vsl.co.at
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vienna Ensemble Pro supports our own sample players as well as all of your third-party VST/AU instruments and effects plug-ins and mix them in stereo and surround (up to 7.1), with full parameter automation and optional one-click integration with Vienna MIR Pro. What’s more, with the included Epic Orchestra 2.0 Sample Pack you get a powerful all-in-one production tool to get you started right away!
> 
> All Features - Overview​*Existing Features*
> 
> Cross-platform MIDI and audio LAN solution for Macs and PCs.
> No audio interfaces, no MIDI interfaces on your additional networked computers – All you need is Ethernet with a Gigabit connection.
> AU/VST (Mac) and VST (PC) hosting – Instantiate any VSL and 3rd party VST and AU plug-ins (works with nearly all available VST/AU plug-ins and supports multiple outputs).
> Preserve Instance – Disconnect Vienna Ensemble Pro from your sequencer while keeping all of your instruments and samples loaded, and re-connect to a new cue or project without loading again.
> Full surround support up to 7.1 with integrated plug-ins for surround-to-surround balancing and mono/stereo-to-surround.
> Frozen/Disabled channels allow unloading all plug-ins (including their allocated memory) from a selected channel, while keeping data intact
> Channel grouping allows assigning channels to a group, with option to link selected parameters to the entire group
> Windows only: Dual architecture servers – Run 64-bit and 32-bit Vienna Ensemble Pro Servers side-by-side on the same computer and integrate 32-bit 3rd party instruments into your 64-bit DAW and vice versa.
> VST3/AAX Native/MAS connector plug-ins – Supports up to 48 MIDI ports and 768 audio ports per instance.
> VST hosting on the Mac, allowing for full compatibility with Windows
> Audio input plug-in – Route audio signals from your DAW into Vienna Ensemble Pro, e.g., to turn it into a virtual FX rack on your networked computer.
> Optimize All – Clean up your RAM by purging all unused samples of all instantiated Vienna Instruments with one mouse click!
> Plug-in latency compensation ensures full sync of all plug-ins inside each Vienna Ensemble Pro instance.
> Optional one-click integration of Vienna MIR Pro (sold separately).
> AU/AU3/VST/VST3/AAX Native/MAS plug-in or stand-alone.
> *New Features*
> 
> Included FX Plug-ins – A selection of powerful plug-ins, based on Vienna Suite Pro, with convenient GUI displays embedded in the mixer channel view: Compressor Pro, Equalizer Pro, Exciter Pro, Limiter Pro, Analyzer Pro.
> Pro versions of our surround-specific plug-ins: Matrix Mixer Pro, Surround Balance Pro, Surround Pan Pro.
> Simplified Automation – Detailed clear names of all automatable parameters available in Vienna Ensemble Pro and all inserted plug-ins.
> Instance CPU Usage – Realtime read-out of the specific CPU load
> Instance MIDI/Audio activity – Better overview, easy to observe and to control MIDI and audio activity
> Vertical Instance List – For a quicker overview of all available instances (in addition to the tabbed view)
> Favorites Manager – Create a list of your go-to plug-ins (FX/instruments)
> Favorites (auto-populated) – Always see your recently most used plug-ins on top of your plug-in list
> Customize Plug-in use in the Vienna Ensemble Pro Preferences
> Improved Plug-in Scanning for a smoother experience with troublesome or incompatible plug-ins
> Instance disabling (automatable)
> Folder disabling (automatable)
> Copy/paste channels – For flexible template adaptations (Comm. C/V, Ctrl C/V)
> Instant Server Discovery – Reliable server detection, also in complex situations
> Faster connection/disconnection from VE Pro Server/instances
> Faster saving times – Instance data is compressed/decompressed to increase saving speed with demanding plug-ins like NI Kontakt.
> Articulation Display – The currently playing articulation is displayed directly in the channel (works for Vienna Synchron Player, Vienna Instruments Player, Vienna Instruments Pro Player).
> Missing Patches are indicated by a red frame (works for Vienna Synchron Player, Vienna Instruments Player, Vienna Instruments Pro Player).
> FX Mini GUI Displays - Watch some of your integrated FX plug-ins right in the channel view.
> 
> * You need one Vienna Ensemble Pro 7 license per computer. For example, if you have two computers, one main and one secondary machine, you need just one license if you’re running one or more instances of Vienna Ensemble Pro 7 on your networked computer only. If you’re running one or more instances of Vienna Ensemble Pro on both your master and networked machines, you need two licenses. Also, each computer requires one ViennaKey for authorization.


Thanks!


----------



## JohnG

Vik said:


> Congratulations! Let's hope it will arrive before a medium sized, M2 based Mac Pro with the same specs and half the price is announced



Hope this ^^ won't come true!

Still hasn't shipped, probably owing to the difficult situation in Texas, from where it reportedly would be sent. Will update eventually; rumour is that it ships today (March 1).


----------



## IFM

JohnG said:


> Hope this ^^ won't come true!
> 
> Still hasn't shipped, probably owing to the difficult situation in Texas, from where it reportedly would be sent. Will update eventually; rumour is that it ships today (March 1).


Aren't they built there too?


----------



## PeterBaumann

JohnG said:


> I agree -- that IS the rub, given the ludicrous price Apple historically charged for its own RAM. Paying a RAM toll of $5k or more to have their machine will be pretty rough for many to contemplate.
> 
> Maybe I can convince myself that "this is the last Mac I ever need to buy!?"


This is the exact concern I have when telling myself to wait another couple of years. I'm currently running off a MacBook Pro 15" having retired my iMac 27" 2014, but I've a few issues. Namely the fan noise and pushing it that bit too far when using BIG Logic orchestral templates.

Have we had a consensus yet on whether the same templates running Play, Kontakt and Spitfire VSTs on Intel Macs require less RAM on M1 Macs to perform equally well? Assuming they don't magically require 1/4 of the RAM, we're presumably going to be paying the crazy apple tax on any RAM we do need. Given the trend of Apple soldering everything they can together, and that the RAM on the new chips seems to be integrated, I would be very surprised if they allowed 3rd party RAM upgrades on Silicon macs.

Going off the current M1 RAM upgrade prices, it's £200 extra for 8GB more memory. This is the same price they charge for upgrading the Intel iMac's memory by the same amount, so I don't think it's unreasonable to think that a similar pricing structure will follow when the Silicon Mac Pros are released. For 128GB/192GB options on the Intel iMac/Mac Pro, you'd be looking at £2.5k-3k just on RAM. All of this is of course assuming these new machines will even be able to have that much RAM...

These Intel Macs may be the last Mac Pros that a) are beyond powerful enough for most needs but b) have user upgradeable RAM you can buy 3rd party for a (vaguely) affordable price.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

PeterBaumann said:


> These Intel Macs may be the last Mac Pros that a) are beyond powerful enough for most needs but b) have user upgradeable RAM you can buy 3rd party for a (vaguely) affordable price.


I also had the same dilemma, as I need to upgrade from my 2013 MB Pro (which still runs perfectly, but I have some downtime and can justify the cost right now). From what I understand so far, it's still a year or two until everything is Silicon....and I don't want to wait that long. Plus, many developers still need to catch up, including Apogee who tell me my interface probably wouldn't be compatible until the end of 2021. So.....I just recently decided to grab the 10th gen 8-core i7 iMac. I also priced out a "similarly" spec'd custom-built PC, but the price actually worked out to be more. Why? When you factor in the processor, Ram, a nice display, etc, it adds up. Plus, I would need to invest in a new audio interface...so there's another $1000. I also just ordered 64GB Ram online, which wasn't too bad. I'm very confident this iMac will last me a good 5+ years, and Apple will no doubt support it for years to come.

My new slave PC is also a 10th gen i7, and it is an absolute beast.


----------



## rnb_2

PeterBaumann said:


> This is the exact concern I have when telling myself to wait another couple of years. I'm currently running off a MacBook Pro 15" having retired my iMac 27" 2014, but I've a few issues. Namely the fan noise and pushing it that bit too far when using BIG Logic orchestral templates.
> 
> Have we had a consensus yet on whether the same templates running Play, Kontakt and Spitfire VSTs on Intel Macs require less RAM on M1 Macs to perform equally well? Assuming they don't magically require 1/4 of the RAM, we're presumably going to be paying the crazy apple tax on any RAM we do need. Given the trend of Apple soldering everything they can together, and that the RAM on the new chips seems to be integrated, I would be very surprised if they allowed 3rd party RAM upgrades on Silicon macs.
> 
> Going off the current M1 RAM upgrade prices, it's £200 extra for 8GB more memory. This is the same price they charge for upgrading the Intel iMac's memory by the same amount, so I don't think it's unreasonable to think that a similar pricing structure will follow when the Silicon Mac Pros are released. For 128GB/192GB options on the Intel iMac/Mac Pro, you'd be looking at £2.5k-3k just on RAM. All of this is of course assuming these new machines will even be able to have that much RAM...
> 
> These Intel Macs may be the last Mac Pros that a) are beyond powerful enough for most needs but b) have user upgradeable RAM you can buy 3rd party for a (vaguely) affordable price.


We may not see all RAM integrated on package like the M1s in future Apple Silicon Macs - it worked out that way for the first release because of the RAM limit, but there is a practical upper limit to how much RAM can fit on a reasonably-sized package. We may end up with 8-32GB, maybe 64GB, available on package, essentially acting like a very large cache, with more RAM installable in slots. It will be interesting to see how it shakes out.


----------



## JohnG

ta-daa


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

JohnG said:


> ta-daa


Well? What are you waiting for? Show us the goods!


----------



## PeterBaumann

JohnG said:


> ta-daa


When did you order it? Curious what lead times are at the moment.


----------



## rnb_2

PeterBaumann said:


> When did you order it? Curious what lead times are at the moment.


Looks like sometime mid-January, by his posts here - so about 6 weeks or so.


----------



## JohnG

Can't show much because the DisplayPort cables I received don't actually fit the machine. So won't be able to plug it in and try anything until I get that fixed.

It's shiny, though.

@PeterBaumann I ordered it Jan 19 and this isn't even the one I ordered. I only got it because someone else's order fell through or something. This one appears almost identical, though it has a larger boot drive. They said the one I ordered wouldn't be shipping for another two weeks; it appears the horrible storm really messed things up for Apple, and of course for many people, some of whom lost their lives. So computer delays don't seem like much in that context.


----------



## Virtuoso

JohnG said:


> Can't show much because the DisplayPort cables I received don't actually fit the machine. So won't be able to plug it in and try anything until I get that fixed.


If your monitor has full size DisplayPort connectors, this cable will work fine. I used a couple of them with my 2019 Mac Pro until I got the Apple monitor:-




Apple sell this one, but there's absolutely no reason to pay the extra:-






Moshi USB C to DisplayPort Cable - Apple


Apple Store Search Results



www.apple.com


----------



## wayne_rowley

rnb_2 said:


> We may not see all RAM integrated on package like the M1s in future Apple Silicon Macs - it worked out that way for the first release because of the RAM limit, but there is a practical upper limit to how much RAM can fit on a reasonably-sized package. We may end up with 8-32GB, maybe 64GB, available on package, essentially acting like a very large cache, with more RAM installable in slots. It will be interesting to see how it shakes out.


I'm playing wait and see myself when it comes to RAM on the AS Macs. Like you I think we *will* see AS Macs that have upgradable RAM, but my fear is that this will be limited to the Mac Pro model only (which we may not see until late 2022). I suspect for the MacBooks/iMacs/Mac Minis RAM will be fixed because most users don't need shedloads of RAM, or to upgrade their RAM, unlike us DAW/VI heavy users!

I've recently got myself a refurbished M1 Air, and it's a great laptop - just what a laptop should be: instant/always on, long battery life, silent, cool and fast. But that's strictly for non-musical use. 

Going by the M1 I see great potential of the AS Macs, but if Apple stick with non-upgradeable RAM and storage, and they charge what they historically charge for RAM upgrades then I may end-up biting the bullet and moving my DAW system to PC and Cubase. Or try to get a good deal on a 2019 Mac Pro....

Wayne


----------



## JonS

JohnG said:


> Can't show much because the DisplayPort cables I received don't actually fit the machine. So won't be able to plug it in and try anything until I get that fixed.
> 
> It's shiny, though.
> 
> @PeterBaumann I ordered it Jan 19 and this isn't even the one I ordered. I only got it because someone else's order fell through or something. This one appears almost identical, though it has a larger boot drive. They said the one I ordered wouldn't be shipping for another two weeks; it appears the horrible storm really messed things up for Apple, and of course for many people, some of whom lost their lives. So computer delays don't seem like much in that context.


When you get it all hooked up and rolling, i'd love to know the kind of track count you are getting with DP10 and VEPro. Congratulations! Great purchase, John!!


----------



## sinkd

JohnG said:


> It's shiny, though.


Yes... Yesss!! The precious IS shiny! (moo-ah-ha-ha)


----------



## PeterBaumann

wayne_rowley said:


> I'm playing wait and see myself when it comes to RAM on the AS Macs. Like you I think we *will* see AS Macs that have upgradable RAM, but my fear is that this will be limited to the Mac Pro model only (which we may not see until late 2022). I suspect for the MacBooks/iMacs/Mac Minis RAM will be fixed because most users don't need shedloads of RAM, or to upgrade their RAM, unlike us DAW/VI heavy users!
> 
> I've recently got myself a refurbished M1 Air, and it's a great laptop - just what a laptop should be: instant/always on, long battery life, silent, cool and fast. But that's strictly for non-musical use.
> 
> Going by the M1 I see great potential of the AS Macs, but if Apple stick with non-upgradeable RAM and storage, and they charge what they historically charge for RAM upgrades then I may end-up biting the bullet and moving my DAW system to PC and Cubase. Or try to get a good deal on a 2019 Mac Pro....
> 
> Wayne


Hopefully by the time M1 Mac Pro finally comes around, hardware and software firmware will have caught up. I'm just picturing having to upgrade every piece of software, and potentially binning my Clarett 8Pre (if Focusrite can't/don't make it M1 compatible), if I wait and go for an Apple Silicon Mac.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

JohnG said:


> They said the one I ordered wouldn't be shipping for another two weeks; it appears the horrible storm really messed things up for Apple, and of course for many people, some of whom lost their lives. So computer delays don't seem like much in that context.


Yeah, small beans. I ordered my new iMac last week, and it’s not going to be here (Canada) for another three weeks. No big deal, though.


----------



## Nimrod7

I brough a Pro early 2020, if everything moves to Silicon in 2 years (at most), it will make a decent Vienna Ensemble Server, with the amount of RAM it can handle, and RAID 0 NVME drives.
Its extremely silent, and since I don't have a machine room (and I hate fans in the studio), it's a great option. 
An expensive one, but the 2-3 solid years usage also will balance things out pretty well I hope.


----------



## JohnG

So far, it's quite impressive. Only got it (mostly) all together last night so this is the first look, so to speak, with it integrated into the whole setup.

Every single thing is much faster -- loading, replacing sounds, resetting the audio system when you make changes -- everything.

But the main issue is that it seems more responsive, so more transparent when composing. Still have to wait a tic when it auto-saves, but much less.

Will report more if further revelations arise.


----------



## IFM

JohnG said:


> So far, it's quite impressive. Only got it (mostly) all together last night so this is the first look, so to speak, with it integrated into the whole setup.
> 
> Every single thing is much faster -- loading, replacing sounds, resetting the audio system when you make changes -- everything.
> 
> But the main issue is that it seems more responsive, so more transparent when composing. Still have to wait a tic when it auto-saves, but much less.
> 
> Will report more if further revelations arise.


That's great to hear. Apologies if you mentioned it earlier. Which DAW are you running?


----------



## JohnG

IFM said:


> That's great to hear. Apologies if you mentioned it earlier. Which DAW are you running?


I use Digital Performer, along with a whole MOTU ecosystem. Having just retired a bunch of FireWire interfaces (!!) I am just discovering the amazing flexibility of modern stuff -- the MOTU 1248 is the centre of the system and it's quite something.


----------



## dgburns

JohnG said:


> ta-daa


Seriously, unveiling the box is half of it. Tha packaging is something else.

Enjoy - These are the highlights of life. Welcome to the club!

Now go make some music!


----------



## JonS

JohnG said:


> I use Digital Performer, along with a whole MOTU ecosystem. Having just retired a bunch of FireWire interfaces (!!) I am just discovering the amazing flexibility of modern stuff -- the MOTU 1248 is the centre of the system and it's quite something.


Don't forget there is MOTU web app control for the 1248 for laptops, smart phones and tablets !!! How exciting !!!


----------



## JohnG

JonS said:


> Don't forget there is MOTU web app control for the 1248 for laptops, smart phones and tablets !!! How exciting !!!


True, Jon. Once you wrap your head around how it works, it's amazingly well-thought-out.


----------



## el-bo

JohnG said:


> ta-daa


I see you went for the white cardboard version. Definitely worth the savings, I reckon 

Congrats!!


----------

