# Writing a free cue to get the gig?



## Adamich (Jun 12, 2009)

Hey fellas,
I'm fairly new to the industry, just started freelance a couple months ago. I've done a bunch of gigs for soundtracks for indie games, scored a few animations, etc. 

Recently though, I've had a few conference calls with an up and coming production company to score their new film. The pay is blasphemous, but if it pays rent while in college, you gotta take it ;]. They are at the final stages of choosing a composer and they asked me to orchestrate a song they sent me to help them decide if I get the gig or not.

So finally, my question: Should you do free work to help get a gig?


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## Brian Ralston (Jun 12, 2009)

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12631
o-[][]-o


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 12, 2009)

While they should pay you for the demo, they can't use it unless they do. It's not the same thing as working for nothing.


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## lux (Jun 12, 2009)

i thihk it depends from the budget. If a good bunch of grands are involved probably makes some sense.

And of course it makes sense if you feel its important to you.


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## madbulk (Jun 12, 2009)

btw, I will put that video right atop my website if everybody else will do the same.

blood pact time.


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## nikolas (Jun 12, 2009)

It's not unreasonable of them to ask for a demo. and it's not unreasonable of you to ask for a demo fee.

Let's be honest here. Someone starting out could be tempted by the opportunity to finally get paid. And of course more advanced pros in here will offer the advice to not go for free. It's not exactly easy. It's definately not fair, it's one of the things that's killing us, composers. Still the temptation might be too great.

Adamich: After watching that wonderful youtube video, try to think of it this way: If the pay is so bloody low it might also mean the movie will suck. Movies take money, it's not computer games. 

If the pay is too low, maybe it's not worth your time? If you can really see your connection with the company and prolly will do more with them, maybe consider it but otherwise... :-/ I've done low pay before, but I was almost sure it would lead to more. And it did!

Demo fee is a must for any professional really. For low pay, it could be low demo fee but it should be there, at least! The thing is that you are entitled to that. It's not exactly working for free, but you won't be asking for much, since the pay is blasphemous as you say.

It's not the time you put into it, it's not the hopes you raise for youself, it's the fact that you are providing a very certain status for yourself. You draw a picture. If they are also starting out, it might not matter that much, but if they were seasoned it would surely matter. 

But, I repeat, I understand your dillema and I'm frankly not sure what I would do, despite all the above, if I needed the money that much!

Good luck!


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## Dave Connor (Jun 12, 2009)

Sure, could mean the difference in getting the gig. Hopefully it's not a five minute cue but doing it shows people how you work as a part of a team, how well you understand their film and on and on.


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## rgames (Jun 12, 2009)

I've never had a problem with spec cues. I actually prefer to do them. I'm assuming, of course, that the gig has a decent fee associated with it. If not, then of course it's not worth it unless you really like the film.

Before signing on with a director, I like to work through a 30 - 60 second cue. That way, we can both understand what the other has to offer. It doesn't take long and the director and composer learn a lot about each other. So I'm in favor of it.

Here's another thought: I've never been reimbursed for any audition I've done as a clarinetist, and I've spent a lot of time preparing for them and money traveling to attend them.

Doing a cue on spec is like doing an audition - it's a cost of doing business.

rgames


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## Christian Marcussen (Jun 12, 2009)

rgames @ Fri Jun 12 said:


> I've never had a problem with spec cues. I actually prefer to do them. I'm assuming, of course, that the gig has a decent fee associated with it. If not, then of course it's not worth it unless you really like the film.
> 
> Before signing on with a director, I like to work through a 30 - 60 second cue. That way, we can both understand what the other has to offer. It doesn't take long and the director and composer learn a lot about each other. So I'm in favor of it.
> 
> ...



I agree with much of what is said here. I prefere doing a spec demo as well as I don't have to put my stock in the clients ability to imagine what I can do based on some unrelated demo of past work.


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## kid-surf (Jun 14, 2009)

What I'm about to say may only apply in the long way around:

The climate is getting really scary out in the studio world (which I imagine will effect the indie world much the same way). This past week one of the industry's top A-list actors got a "pass" on a project he was looking to produce. A name that "should" greenlight ANY project (after all, the studio would normally hope they could wrangle the actor into acting in the film, and not simply producing. Normally it's a VERY enticing proposition for a studio). And get this, it was at the studio his deal is with. Now, that makes me sit up and take notice...

There's no way in hell this would have happened just last year, much less 6 months ago. There's a lot of politicking involved in that "no". They risk embarrassing one of their own most money making "stars" the world over...and over seemingly not much money. Normally they'd make the deal just to appease the actor even if they never planed to move forward with the project after it was acquired.

So...There are literally "no" pitches selling in this climate. Studios are asking for it to be packaged. They don't want to buy a pitch, they want to buy a "movie". Meaning, they want a script, a producer, a director, and an actor attached to said project. "Ok, cool, now we're ready to buy it...." Studios are cutting back in many ways. 

Point being: All the guys putting films together at the highest levels are doing work, initially, for FREE. 

And remember, the films you're scoring now were greenlit YEARS ago. These same films (and/or films you've recently scored) likely would NOT get greenlit in this climate. So...what will that mean for the composer as this trickles down and fully plays out? Will there be way less money for composers? Less films with less budget? More promises of "we'll get ya' next time!"? Will they be hyper vigilant about guys demoing for free regardless of what you've done? Who knows? It could get a lot worse before it gets better. Composers are at least two years behind the frontline guys...

Not to be pessimistic, but...it's REALLY tough in the studio world at present. And indie money doesn't grow on trees.


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## poseur (Jun 14, 2009)

in my mind, a "spec"-demo is _one_ thing:
i can find this to be totally acceptable, if you're committed to the idea.

the _other_ thing, though is this:
to be sure & clear that this is a "demo" on spec,
& that the production company has no rights to actually use this demo
--- for any purposes ---
without a negotiated compensation to you;
not even for their eventual "temp" score.

the _third_ thing is this:
you've not said that they asked you to *write* for them;
you've said they asked you to *"orchestrate a song"* they'd sent to you
in order to, basically, test your mettle:
that seems a bit "suspicious", or at least somewhat "questionable",
afaic.

but..... humor me, here.
you say that this production company is "up & coming";
what does that mean, exactly?
is is based on your gut-feelings, 
or on you having seen their previous works,
or on previously (recently) successful releases,
or on your perception of industry "buzz"?

d


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## jeffc (Jun 14, 2009)

I agree that I have no problem doing a spec demo cue for a film. For me, it's how I've gotten any of the bigger projects - I know I would have had no chance of the job had I not done a spec demo for the gig. Period. If anything, you know your first cue on your demo will be heard and if it's good, you've got a much better shot than a general demo and credit list, in which case, you've really got no shot if other people have bigger credits. It can totally work in your favor. To anyone who says, no and you should be paid - I've never heard this existing in the film world. For anyone. I'm wondering if people really have experience with getting paid for a movie demo, or if it's just pie in the sky optimism. Because my experience is the total opposite, where sometimes you're fighting against A or B list composers who will drop their fee 90% to do a film that they like - so how do you compete against that? Plus I know of other big name guys that will sometimes hire a ORCHESTRA out of their own pocket to demo for a gig. So, I say don't feel bad about doing a demo to try and get a gig. You've got to pay to play, so to speak. Cost of doing business. Betting on yourself. Evening the playing field. Blah blah blah....

And I do agree with Kid that it's getting pretty tough out there in the film world. It seems that besides tentpoles and comedies, the studio system is in a weird place. It seems almost that the majority of films that will get made in the future will start as indies, with their own financing, and some will get released through the 'studios' for distribution. Negative pickups. I'm not sure what this means for composers - I think it means that getting hired on certain films may be easier, because indies generally don't have the 'studio' budgets, which may put some composers out of their budget range, but the downside to this probably means that as a composer on an indie, your fee will probably not be very good. So, it can turn out to be a vicious cycle in the long run for composers, as the working up the ladder to better paying films might not be a valid career path option. Who knows? Interesting times....


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## Ashermusic (Jun 14, 2009)

jeffc @ Sun Jun 14 said:


> Interesting times....



A well-known Chinese curse is, "May you live in interesting times."


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## dcoscina (Jun 14, 2009)

I sort of did this recently. I wrote a bunch of things and I got promoted from "assistant composer" with no onscreen credits to having my name on the credits as "co-composer". For me, this worked out well. It showed the main composer that I was had initiative and (I guess) the chops.


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## nikolas (Jun 14, 2009)

So wait now...

The vendor client youtube video was hailed with great success, but now the general consentive is "go for the free and get the gig"?

I don't get it. I really don't get it! (although I have some thoughts in my mind and will share them shortly).


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## Christian Marcussen (Jun 14, 2009)

nikolas @ Sun Jun 14 said:


> So wait now...
> 
> The vendor client youtube video was hailed with great success, but now the general consentive is "go for the free and get the gig"?
> 
> I don't get it. I really don't get it! (although I have some thoughts in my mind and will share them shortly).



Say you are a porn actor. You show up to the interview, take off your clothes - possibly bang some co-star or producer so they know you have what it takes. Then you get the job, and then they pay you what was agreed upon. :D

The client vendor video is about not getting paid, paid less than agreed, or generally not getting a fair treatment once hired - in short, the client not living up to the agreement. Doing a spec demo is about doing a 1-2 minute cue in the exact style they wan't as part of getting the job. They dont own the music, and if you dont get the job you can put it on a demo reel, or sell it in the future.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 14, 2009)

My policy has always been to do a demo when it was not a cattle call but something that a few folks were being asked to compete for and I thought I had a realistic chance. Most of the time of course I did not get the gig but a couple of times I did. 

The best opportunities are those where they listen without knowledge of who did which. Then if yours is good you have a real shot.


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## poseur (Jun 14, 2009)

nikolas @ Sun Jun 14 said:


> So wait now...
> 
> The vendor client youtube video was hailed with great success, but now the general consentive is "go for the free and get the gig"?
> 
> I don't get it. I really don't get it! (although I have some thoughts in my mind and will share them shortly).


personally, i certainly didn't say nor imply that.

i think it's ok to do a demo, should the individual decide to do so
for their own, well-thought-through reasons;
but, i do not think it's ok to do a "demo" & give up the rights to it,
and.....
specifically, to the point:
in the case of this thread's admittedly inexperienced OP,
i was suggesting that this may need to be known & agreed,
in advance of any work done.

i don't like to do demos, myself;
sometimes, i do it, anyway..... after giving it some serious thought,
and after having discussions with my wife, my mx-editor, my agent (in that order).

like jay,
i won't do a demo without having reasonably confirmed that
i'm actually in serious consideration for the job.

but:
once, i did (indeed) get paid (well) to demo, on a studio film.....
and stayed on as the composer.
(it's too complicated a story to tell, here.....)

and, otoh:
i often provide original music to a couple of screenwriter-friends of mine,
completely gratis.....
..... some writers enjoy listening to music, as they write.

d


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## poseur (Jun 14, 2009)

jeffc @ Sun Jun 14 said:


> I agree that I have no problem doing a spec demo cue for a film. For me, it's how I've gotten any of the bigger projects - I know I would have had no chance of the job had I not done a spec demo for the gig. Period. If anything, you know your first cue on your demo will be heard and if it's good, you've got a much better shot than a general demo and credit list, in which case, *you've really got no shot if other people have bigger credits.*


every situation is different.
i've found the statement, highlighted above,
to _not_ be 100% true, myself.

d


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## nikolas (Jun 14, 2009)

I don't do films, so this situation does not apply to me really. But with the DVD I'm currently working on here in Greece, I was asked to do a short 3 track demo, but paid (and a handsome amount of money, compaired to the final fee). Got the gig, no probs there! :D But it was paid, so it felt quite nice.

I was actually talking to my brother (coder by trade) about the vendor-client video and he told me that this actually happens to pretty much all business. Low pay? Instead of 150,000 euros the company he's working in pitched for 90,000 to get the job. And did the job which should be for 190,000! Other people do it.

It seems to me that the vendor-client relationship only applies to the END USER and products. You never see people complaining to the super markets, but you can see people asking for lower pitches when talking about services! 

And this is the key word: Service (vs product). Service is "non standardised" everywhere. Products are, they are tangible. A brand will cost as much as it costs, and lower-higher prices will be the marketing key to succes (as well as BOGOF and other strategies). Why can't the same apply with services? I will make 2 soundtracks for the price of 1. Tesco and Wall mart do it all the time, so why complain?


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## artsoundz (Jun 14, 2009)

My very first music for picture job was a spec demo for Boeing - a tourist video for Nepal.

I subsequently did over 200 videos and commercials for them in the next 8 years. On the other hand, I would never do cattle call demos. Way too much of a risk and effort and usually for 
unqualified (musically) producers.


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## Illuminati (Jun 14, 2009)

Yes do the demo if you're up for it. Could mean long-term work. There are some, really established folk who still need to do the demo thing, it is like an audition. If it doesn't work out it just goes into your catalog for your sound library...

Being paid to do a demo would be more in the advertising, game audio sectors. Unless your working with a very charitable soul.


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## Markus S (Jun 15, 2009)

Yes, free demos are OK, just keep it reasonable, 1-2 minutes are always acceptable , IMO.


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## kid-surf (Jun 16, 2009)

Addendum---

My bad, a pitch sold yesterday. Here's how it's done:

1) Be a very successful writer team with several produced credits ("HITS"). Two of which were set in the same 'world' you're pitching...

2) Get DiCaprio to attach...AND...produce.

So how easy that was! Now, slam dunk your ball because you're obviously a winner!!!



For most everyone else, it's tough as hell out there. Pitches are otherwise not selling (aside from broad comedies, and who the hell wants to write that crap?)

Didn't want anyone to call me a liar, is all.


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