# Quoting projects and giving prices - need advice asap



## Dracarys (Jan 10, 2012)

Hey all,

I have a few interviews coming up, with companies in my city that do production for Ford, Chrysler, Rolex, and some mainstream series, mainly adverts, but am not confident with prices.

I spoke to one of the workers over the phone and he asked me for some set prices, but just warded the question off by saying I'm flexible, like to view the project first, abd that it depends on the client.

1. What are some realistic prices for someone with a mediocre client list, and do you charge hourly?

2. How do you factor these prices in with royalty percentages, artist shares, etc?


I have the Reel World by Jeff Rona but it doesn't go too far into depth, would love if you shared your experiences.

Thanks!


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## rgames (Jan 10, 2012)

Casalena @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> 1. What are some realistic prices for someone with a mediocre client list


Between $0 and $10,000 per minute of music. Does that help?

There's no way to answer that question - you might as well be asking if you should take cholesterol medication. Who knows? The details are too specific to your situation for someone else to answer either question.

Fortunately, determining what to charge is a simple two-step process:

1. Figure out what you must charge.
2. Figure out what you can charge.

If #2 is less than #1, don't take the gig.

#1 is specific to your cost structure, the value of your time, the type of music required, the amount of music required, other revenues associated with the music, and other financial considerations (e.g. taxes, live musicians, etc). #2 is specific to the client and his budget and can be determined only by feeling him out.

There's no single answer. You have to figure it out.

rgames


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## Dracarys (Jan 10, 2012)

Well when someone asks for prices over the phone on your first call, it's difficult to feel him out on the spot.
He stated that an upcoming Olympic project was going to be small budget. Typically people like to know if you charge daily, hourly, per minute of music, right off the bat. I explained to him that I don't quote until learning more about the project and client.

I don't feel comfortable asking him what the budget is for this particular project, even if it isn't that intrusive. 

Right now, for small scale projects with no real potential royalties, $2-300 per minute of music sounds reasonable. No royalties could mean a higher price, and an exclusive package deal could mean a larger premium. 
If it's a FORD commercial for example, I've heard people quoting 5-10k, plus royalties, but I won't be dealing directly with FORD or companies for the most part. It will most likely be through this production org.

The type of work I'm talking about is all MIDI orchestra, no live performers or anything along those lines. 

If anyone feels comfortable discussing circumstances they've been in, to degree, please feel free to paint a scenario.


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## midphase (Jan 10, 2012)

I agree with Richard. It is unfortunate that there aren't some resources for standard pricing for composers, but that's just the way it is.

I am waiting for a quote from a contractor for some work on the house. What he's probably doing right now is breaking down the materials needed and pricing that, and then getting a good idea of how many hours he needs to spend on the project and adding it all up. It's pretty scientific, the main difference is how much he charges an hour and/or how quickly he feels he can get it done. 

Perhaps composers should start approaching quotes the same way. Figure out an hourly fee for yourself, figure out if you need to go out and purchase some specific tools, and then add it all up.


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## José Herring (Jan 10, 2012)

Negotiating 101, make them give you a number. They have an idea already. It's a production and it's already budgeted. So just ask what they have budgeted for music. If it's low you counter. If it's pretty decent, then decide if you want to play the game and negotiate more or if you're happy with it.

It's pretty simple. They always have a number. They will always tell you what it is even if it takes a few times to ask.

But, don't, and I mean don't ever give a number first. Whatever number you come up with you'll regret as soon as you say it.


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## Dracarys (Jan 10, 2012)

I have to shoot him an email back but I'll definitely work it out of him, subtly.

I hear that Jose, I dread giving numbers first.


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## reddognoyz (Jan 10, 2012)

Don't even have to be all that subtle. If they insist on a number, spit on the floor, looek 'em dead in the eye as say in your best redneck drawl "how much you got??"

We are asked to bid on doing entire seasons of shows at my studio and they insist that we deliver them a bid before they'll tell us their budget. A huge waste of time, and guess what? we are always always always higher than their number.


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## José Herring (Jan 10, 2012)

Stuart I've had the same thing in the movies. Makes me feel like a desperate street hooker.

Film company (john): Hey baby, how much?

composer (hooker): If you want the full monty it will cost ya

Film Company: We only got $(insert any low number here)

composer: Damn, baby! That ain't much, what kind of a hooker do you think I am?

--composer thinks for a while, rent is due, Kid needs a new toy, wife is harping on him to bring in more money, new string libraries are out and he desperately needs to keep up, ect., ect....

Film company: Well what's it going to be? We got 10 tramps waiting in line. You're the lucky special one

Composer: ummmm.....aaaahh......well...... nyes...

Film company: Get in the car beatch


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## dinerdog (Jan 10, 2012)

I agree with jose. I always make them give me a number. I say something like:

"Look, instead of us going back and forth, just tell me what kind of budget you have and we can take it from there".

Then you can decide the pluses and minuses. If you want to do it, but don't want to appear low budget, tell them your always looking for new people to work with and you need to keep the publishing (or at least half of it) along with your writers. I don't care how "unusual" they say it is, so is your doing a low budget picture. : >


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## Dracarys (Jan 10, 2012)

Asking for publishing is a little too much for the first time around, I think.
What are typical writers/publishers %'s?


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## RiffWraith (Jan 10, 2012)

Casalena @ Wed Jan 11 said:


> What are typical writers/publishers %'s?



100%/100%


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## autopilot (Jan 10, 2012)

Not at all - keep all the publishing. Always.

Maybe big deals are worth trading some points - small deals - tell them it's your way of keeping the costs down. 

NEVER offer publishing. NEVER.

That's all.


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## Mike Greene (Jan 10, 2012)

midphase @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> I am waiting for a quote from a contractor for some work on the house. What he's probably doing right now is breaking down the materials needed and pricing that, and then getting a good idea of how many hours he needs to spend on the project and adding it all up.


No he isn't. Right now he's probably drinking a beer. In a week or two, after you've pestered him enough about when that quote will be ready, then he might finally get around to doing that stuff you're talking about.

:mrgreen:


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## Dracarys (Jan 11, 2012)

autopilot @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> Not at all - keep all the publishing. Always.
> 
> Maybe big deals are worth trading some points - small deals - tell them it's your way of keeping the costs down.
> 
> ...




Sorry what I meant was what are the percentages when broken down, i.e for each time the music is aired.


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## germancomponist (Jan 11, 2012)

I always say: "It depends!" And I also ask: "What do you want, a very great music, especially done for only you, or do you want a 0815 bla bla bla....?

After only 3 or 4 spoken sentences I know what I can tell them..It is a poker-game.... .


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## Dave Connor (Jan 11, 2012)

If you say, "Well quality music ranges from 500 to 1000 per minute depending on it's complexity (orchestral more expensive), production cost (hiring players - even a rock rhythm section), and usage (demo or master - delivering master quality more expensive.) If you can tell me more about the music itself than I can figure the production cost whether it's paying people or just calculating my time" i.e. it's all you/all midi and no paying others. "It's possible that we could even go below 500 per minute but I would need to know exactly what I have to deliver and if I can do it for that."

Keeps you in the game and lets them know you get real money for what you do. Also puts the burden on them to tell you more about the project and music. Keep in mind that mockup guys will get 1000 per minute here in LA and it's very good quality but still demo to be replaced by a real orchestra.


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## RiffWraith (Jan 11, 2012)

autopilot @ Wed Jan 11 said:


> Not at all - keep all the publishing. Always.
> 
> Maybe big deals are worth trading some points - small deals - tell them it's your way of keeping the costs down.
> 
> ...



I am sure you meant writers share instead of publishing.



Casalena @ Thu Jan 12 said:


> Sorry what I meant was what are the percentages when broken down, i.e for each time the music is aired.



Depends on the deal you have with whoever has the publishing for your track(s). The typical deal is a 50/50 split on the sync license , where you the composer keeps 100% of the writer's share, and the library gets 100% of the publishing.

If you are hired directly by the network, you get both the writers and the publishing. Which is nice - becuase it is 2x the money.

Cheers.


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## midphase (Jan 12, 2012)

Mike Greene @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> midphase @ Tue Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > I am waiting for a quote from a contractor for some work on the house. What he's probably doing right now is breaking down the materials needed and pricing that, and then getting a good idea of how many hours he needs to spend on the project and adding it all up.
> ...




AAAAHHH....I just received the estimate back...the guy is insane!!! Anyone know of a good but 'reasonable' contractor in the Los Angeles area?


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## rgames (Jan 12, 2012)

midphase @ Thu Jan 12 said:


> AAAAHHH....I just received the estimate back...the guy is insane!!!



Tell him to do it for free - it'll be great for his reel!

rgames


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## midphase (Jan 12, 2012)

HA! I'm ok with someone making a decent living at their craft. But I don't think I can justify paying someone over $150/hour to hammer nails in...come on!!!


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## Daryl (Jan 12, 2012)

midphase @ Thu Jan 12 said:


> HA! I'm ok with someone making a decent living at their craft. But I don't think I can justify paying someone over $150/hour to hammer nails in...come on!!!


Sounds fair to me. :lol: 

D


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## dinerdog (Jan 13, 2012)

midphase - you might need some 'non union' work. :wink:


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## impressions (Jan 25, 2012)

The real problem with pricing, and i might touch a sensitive taboo area in this market, is that your value is estimated according to what you think is on your level craftsmen ship. You might think you're as good as 150/hour but there's actually 10 other guys as good as you trying to break in with 50$/hour in the best case. There are those that work for free and that depends on the sleaziness of the contractor whether to take them into consideration.


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## Rob Elliott (Jan 25, 2012)

It's all *deliverable *(John Williams-type OR brainless loops) and *distribution *(his/her mom will watch OR 93 million and beyond will watch) - all points in between. Writers/Publishing, etc.

Always ask what the budget is (more than 50% of the time they tell me a number higher than I'd settle for - given the project.) For the budgets that are 'ridiculous' (low) - I have discovered quick ways to get off the phone (hair just ignited, dog just bite me in the face, gotta shampoo my parrot, etc.)

Good luck with the gig.


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