# My Thoughts on Making a Living in the Film Business



## Reid Rosefelt (Jan 23, 2020)

I was thinking of putting this in a thread on “Where or How do I submit my music for Netflix” but I don’t even know why I even looked into a thread about how to get a job at one of the two places most infamous for screwing over composers. 

But there was some deep negativity about how impossible it is to become a composer for movies and TV, and it got me thinking, as I have made a living for 45 years in the film business, albeit as a publicist not as a composer. But I’ve known, and often been close friends with, hundreds of working directors and producers—the people who could potentially hire you.

For example, one of my best friends now is an award-winning animator making her second feature. I remember well all the submissions from composers. Tons and tons of epic music—the stuff everybody loves to do on this forum. Nothing at all to do with the kind of movies that she makes, or the music she had used on those films. Just the kinds of Hans Zimmer music that the composers wanted to make.

So the first thing I would say is that it’s not about you. You want to become a collaborator in a work of art, and each work has its own requirements. Mike Verta says you should become conversant in as many styles as possible, and I suppose that’s one path, probably better for Hollywood over my independent film world. But my friend can’t do all kinds of movies—just her own kind. Being unique is another path. She picked one person out of many because that person was right for her project. And she liked him as a human being too. 

I would say that in the film business you need to be really good and build a lot of relationships. If you’re a genius you don’t need so many relationships; If you have a lot of relationships, you don’t need to be a genius—being competent and willing to work hard to improve might be fine.

I came to New York City in the late 70s not knowing a single person in the film business. After a few years, I knew hundreds of people. Not because I was pursuing “connections,” but because I liked having friends who shared my interest, and one person would introduce me to another, and invited me to parties where I met others. Looking back there were some people who pursued making connections ruthlessly, but I wasn’t ambitious. I didn’t have grand plans and didn’t see my friends as a way to achieve them. I was head over heels in love with cinema, and I do think that there was something about that love or my personality that made people like me. Most of these people you wouldn’t know, but some of them have become very famous filmmakers and one of them became the first woman to win an Oscar for Best Picture. 

I could tell you many stories from my early days in New York. When my friend Adam Brooks made his first feature, “Ghost Sisters” (in Super-8) starring two women who were also good friends of mine, he asked me to do the score. For free of course. Everybody worked for free. As it happened, the cameraman was Jonathan Demme, whose girlfriend lived in the next apartment to Adam. This was around the time of “Melvin and Howard.” Demme was just doing this because he liked Adam and for the fun of it. 

You could say I was just lucky that tons of stuff like that happened to me, but it wasn’t easy for me to uproot myself from Wisconsin with no money and find a way to live in New York. And once I was there I was out practically every night. Of course so much is luck, but as Woody Allen supposedly said, "80% of success is just showing up." Back in Madison I wouldn’t have had the same experiences and opportunities. 

As I said, I really didn’t know what I wanted to do. I did a lot of things in my first job. When I was ready to move on from that and had to actually choose a career, I had three offers. A music producer wanted me to work with him as his assistant. A Broadway ad agency wanted me to go there and design posters. And I got an offer from a Hollywood PR firm. I picked the PR firm. And that became my life. Honestly I wanted to protect my love of music from the film business, which can get ugly. Maybe I loved music more.

Could I have had a career as a composer in independent and foreign film? Hell yeah, I could have. And practically all of you are profoundly better musicians than me. Adam Brooks loved my “Ghost Sisters” theme and still does. Recently he told me he was thinking of it while working with the composer on a TV show he created, “Impostors.” If I knew I wanted to be a film composer, I had more than enough very close friends who would have really wanted to help me achieve that goal. And I would have worked hard to make it worth their while.

Somebody said that the path of composing a lot of independent films is unlikely to work. Of course throwing everything against a wall and hoping something sticks is not an optimal plan. As a film composer, you are an artist. Maybe a collaborative artist, but an artist all the same. A long time ago, my friends Ted Hope and James Schamus teamed up to be producers. They went to NYU and watched all the short films. They saw a film by a guy name Ang Lee. So they met with him. You all can do this. Watch lots of short films. Nearly all feature directors begin with shorts. It’s not just about finding somebody who is talented, but finding somebody starting out who makes the kind of films you’d like to score. Buy them lunch. Make a human and artistic connection. It probably won’t result in a “job,” but it’s like dating. Nothing happens if you don’t go out there and try to make something happen. Getting work is part of your job.

Finally, let me get to the idea of making a living. Why do you guys have the right to that when none of my friends who are writers, directors, actors, feel they have a right to that? Last week I saw an old friend, Katherine Dieckmann, who is a writer/director. Her last film starred Holly Hunter and Carrie Coon. She can’t make a living from directing films, or at least the kinds of films she wants to make. She’s taught screenwriting at Columbia for twenty years. I know a filmmaker who is basically legendary and when I see him he generally whines about money and how much trouble he has making the films he wants.

Folks, I get it. It’s always been hard to make a living as a film composer, and streaming is making it even harder. But it’s hard on everybody. Everybody is getting squeezed. 

To circle back to my animator friend, her life is hell. She’s working 24/7 doing t*ens of thousands of drawings* in a loft that isn’t heated in the winter and is burning hot in the summer. It’s going to take her many years to finish this film. There are always problems with money. I doubt any of you will see it. It’s torture for her to get through this, but she does it because she HAS to. For her, to stop would be like stopping breathing. 

So that’s my question to you: do you HAVE to be a composer for films? Because if you do, you will not let anything or anyone get in your way.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 23, 2020)

I don't see anything wrong with dreaming BIG. And if it's to become a successful film composer (ie; earning a healthy, steady living for a long term), then so be it. I have had this dream for 30 years, and it's still a dream. IMHO, the key is to be *realistic* about this dream. As the time passes, one becomes more cynical, and often gives up on a dream. For me, I eventually realized it was a slim chance of ever getting to that point. So....I made a compromise with my dream. As long as I could continue to pursue, along side my primary career, I would be happy. It worked! I have earned a healthy second income from composing music for many years (not just film, but many other avenues), and I didn't struggle because I have a solid career (non-musical). Unlike your animation friend, my life doesn't end if I'm not pursuing my passion full time, that is just a ridiculous way to look at life, and leads to inevitable anxiety and depression. Do I still dream of making it as a full time film composer? Absolutely! I'm now 50, but I'm not dead yet. Another thing to remember is that a huge factor is LUCK. Anything can happen. But also, if you don't get out there and try to make s#$t happen, nothing is is going to happen.


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## wetalkofdreams (Jan 23, 2020)

Thank you for this insight - and it's reaffirmed my choices in my early days in the media industry (started at 24, now 29).

Jumping from movie to movie, or project to project sounds unbelievably terrifying, and from what i've heard from other composers in this forum, you get very little creative control.

So I went the opposite route - found small independant companies who produce content every week by themselves or hired by others to do so. Became really connected to those I work with, and picked up skills along the way. So it's less of me being 'just' (there's nothing 'just' about it, but I can't think of the proper word) a composer, but rather a hybrid of composer/editor/producer.

It gives me the best of both worlds - bigger cheques for doing multiple roles, and having a bigger creative control over the finished product.

But more than that - it's stopped me from being someone in a room by himself, to really connecting and making friends. My mental health thanks me for it.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Jan 23, 2020)

Wolfie2112 said:


> I don't see anything wrong with dreaming BIG. And if it's to become a successful film composer (ie; earning a healthy, steady living for a long term), then so be it. I have had this dream for 30 years, and it's still a dream. IMHO, the key is to be *realistic* about this dream. As the time passes, one becomes more cynical, and often gives up on a dream. For me, I eventually realized it was a slim chance of ever getting to that point. So....I made a compromise with my dream. As long as I could continue to pursue, along side my primary career, I would be happy. It worked! I have earned a healthy second income from composing music for many years (not just film, but many other avenues), and I didn't struggle because I have a solid career (non-musical). Unlike your animation friend, my life doesn't end if I'm not pursuing my passion full time, that is just a ridiculous way to look at life, and leads to inevitable anxiety and depression. Do I still dream of making it as a full time film composer? Absolutely! I'm now 50, but I'm not dead yet. Another thing to remember is that a huge factor is LUCK. Anything can happen. But also, if you don't get out there and try to make s#$t happen, nothing is is going to happen.


I'm not saying that everybody should live like my friend. I sure wouldn't want to. But her films simply would not exist without a herculean effort on her part. Composing for movies doesn't require that level of effort.

My point is that many of the filmmakers I've known in my life that wanted something enough--most of them made it happen, to one degree or another. It's always a struggle, no matter what their lives look like on the outside. They may not be famous filmmakers, but they have made films they like and have found another way to make a living. And if they are lucky enough to be rich and famous--they have problems just like us. Success has its pressures and burdens.

When I listen to the music some of you put up on this forum, I often think, "this person has made it." In the ways that matter to me.


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## visiblenoise (Jan 23, 2020)

I love reading stuff like this here. Sometimes it crushes my hopes of making a living from something I like, but your take is like an encouraging "tough love" spin and you seem really sincere. Thanks for sharing.


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## Loïc D (Jan 23, 2020)

Nice read as usual Tiger !

I'm hobbyist, getting no revenue from music (I'm also bass player).
I chose 20 years ago to keep my main activity (international IT expert/consultant) that's (well) funding my family and my hobby.
Aside of my job, I could have gone further by doing tons of gigs (bass players are rather looked for here) and/or studying composition a lot BUT to me it is paramount that music brings sheer pleasure. A lot of work yes, but lots of pleasure in the first place. And my family too of course.

Last year, I changed job because I was working waay too much (over 60h a week in total stress) with no time/energy left for music (and I was quite an a$$hole at home being overtired).

I think I found quite a good balance now between work/family/music with a wealthy budget and good life.

Then, networking. I probably don't attend many events but I find it very difficult to network here in Paris, France. I don't see the creative collaboration that seems to soar in London & LA. I feel composers here are a bit shy, not to say suspicious / critical to eachother and, as many creative ppl here, are mostly positioned in circles - often around their education or domain (CNSM clan, FEMIS clan, VG clan, etc.)
I'd really like to be proven wrong, if some French composer could chime in here.

_(That said, if Hans calls me, I'll take the next plane to LA. Or Desplat  )_


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 23, 2020)

TigerTheFrog said:


> When I listen to the music some of you put up on this forum, I often think, "this person has made it." In the ways that matter to me.



Agreed! There is an ocean of talent on this forum, I am constantly blown away (and inspired) by some of the music I hear. In fact, I bet there are some "bedroom studio" composers here that could run circles around some of the top names in Hollywood. And that's where so many factors come into play; like demographics, lack of networking, fear of making those cold calls, etc, etc. I used to think "making it" was to be a big name Hollywood composer, living in the lap of luxury....but realized later in life that I probably had better odds at wining the lottery. I am content to say that I have "made it", as I have the privilege of writing music professionally part time....and this in turn fulfills my musical passion as a composer.


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## jononotbono (Jan 23, 2020)

TigerTheFrog said:


> So that’s my question to you: do you HAVE to be a composer for films? Because if you do, you will not let anything or anyone get in your way.



Exactly. That's why I have no Plan B.

Man, thank you for this post. It's completely honest, down to Earth and inspiring.


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## X-Bassist (Jan 23, 2020)

After working for years with a number of overworked composers who “made it” (making a good living at composing on dozens of films and TV shows a year) I realized the ultimate situation is not Hans Zimmer, John Williams, or, in my case, Mark Mothersbough, because they are all overworked with deadlines that are far too tight to get creative during post production (I was a lead mixer so I never would see their “creative” period, only the “I’ve been up for two weeks straight and hate it, but here’s the score” period).

But the ideal composer job is when you are working smaller projects that can accomodate a more leasurely schedule, even if that means a smaller budget. Between the time they give you (when you ask for it because you make it clear the budget is too small to be your only working project) and them having un unclear idea of what they want (90% of the time) or an exact idea of what they want (10% of the time) allows me much more creative control, which makes me, and I believe the client, much happier. Granted, my mindset is I am here to serve the story, the audience, AND the filmmaker, so I don’t get hungup if major changes are needed. But the fact is there is time to make them, so the filmmaker goes off very happy, which gets me more work down the road.

And the truth is, although “luck” can play a part in getting your first few jobs, eventually it’s returns and references (the same filmmaker coming back or saying to another “I got a great guy...”) that brings in work long term. Especially in films, where projects are always just a few months at best. And FEW filmmakers, unfortunately, get to post on a 2nd film, even less to a 3rd. So references (hopefully from a well connected producer) gets more work in the long run than luck, nepotism, parties, and hard work combined.

So making that film work for that producer and director, is much more important that working on a “great film”. And finding the level of project that your most comfortable with... low stress or the excitment of being under a lot of pressure (some people actually love it because they do their best work under the gun, and find it took less time than they thought), should be your top priority. Not money, not prestige, because none of that will last. But your memories of working on the project, the relationships that come out of it, and what you may have to give up in your life to do the job, is most of what you will remember. Choose wisely. Decide what kind of projects you want to do, then target those creative people doing those kinds of projects.


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## cmillar (Jan 23, 2020)

Yes....a great read and thoughts from 'TigertheFrog'.

I can relate, as I spent the '90's in NYC and composed music for over 20 short/independent films. Some of the scores were for people just out of NYU or Columbia or somewhere, some were for graduate thesis projects, and some were for independent filmakers making films the way 'Tiger' describes....because they had something to say and needed to say it and do it.

Fantastic experiences, as I was 'pushed' into new ways of thinking about music/sound/art...and I was well into my '30's with years of composing for jazz, 'art-music', modern dance, radio commercials, show arranging, and more.

Know what I appreciate now about that time period?....that there weren't any computers and sound libraries involved in any of my work.

I had to do it all myself with my keyboards/synths, or bring in REAL people to help me. I used what I had available at the time.... from 4-track Tascam cassette recorder, to using the built-in sequencer of my Korg M1, to using a Roland VS-880 digital recorder synched up to my Roland XP-880, to getting an 8-track digital Tascam deck, and then I finally got MOTU Performer (not Digital Performer...it didn't exist yet!) on a Mac Powerbook to record my Roland synths and rack mounts (Roland sampler, Proteus units, more Roland stuff, etc.) Walked around the city with my Mini-Disc recorder collecting sound for soundscapes and 'colors' that could be used as sound design.

Sacrilege you say?....what?....no sound libraries or loops?....no drum software?

I had to really collaborate with the filmmakers, as they really couldn't edit my music and cut-and-paste it wherever they wanted in their non-digital editing suites....I had to get the music RIGHT.....right for the film, the scene, the mood, the aesthetic....we all had to really think about it and get it RIGHT.

It was nail-biting; even if there barely any money in it. I'd pray that the filmmaker would approve of my final score and that I wouldn't have to go back and make numerous changes. When I had to make changes, that meant many sleepless nights and more nail-biting.

But it was a rush. We were creating art.

Do I do any big-time film music? No...my focus is on live music and creating music scores for modern dancers, artists, live shows (some are very commercial oriented as well), and still practicing my instruments in order to become an evolving musician (the trombone is a life study in itself!)
(...I value this forum because I like to be aware of what's going on with computers, sound, etc. I have enough sound libraries now to last a life time....always some valuable insights in this forum)

Is it a living?

It's life...it's what I do...what I HAVE to do.

Can YOU make a living as a film-composer? Maybe, I guess....what's a living?....doing something you really love? Go for it!

Live...or die wondering.

(....just do the world a favor!....be yourself....there's enough generic, 'epic', sound-alikes out there.....try be a superb collaborator, and I hope that you find interesting, artistically educated people to work with)


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## gsilbers (Jan 23, 2020)

maybe you know the story of micheal giachino but he used to work as a marketing dude for disney. he knew some poeple and did some short film and small video games and from them went all the way... thats what i remeber i read somewhere. not sure the details. 

but the issue from the entertainment world (which i know something about) is that if you work as publisist and people know you as a publisist then thats what you are for them. you cannot be maybe a composer. 
same deal if it was reversed. suddenlty you get the oportunity to be an executive prodcuer on a tv show pilot going to disney and netflix, would you hire someone you used to know as a marketing dude who maybe does small shorts on the side or would you hire a director who has done sucesful pilots. 
and no, maybe they have a demo thats impressive, but if you havent done something like that and have proof you can deliver and not have hissy fits etc then no matter how good that demo, theyll hire the other dude. 

so its a catch 22. and the main way famous composer have gone around it is working at remote control or being assistant to a famous composer who theyd see the assistant as the succesor or lower tier versino of the main compsoer until they do some cool shows. 

also, location. los angeles is where a lot of that stuff happens. NYC seems a lot more riskier. like if you needed a sound stage in new york vs a sound stage in los angeles. there a lot more options in LA while in NY you seem to have only a small amount of choices and those are the top tier. 

oh, and the secret to being a film composer, or a director etc.. its none other than having money to begin with and be in LA. i think oscar so white hashtags fail to see this part of the biz. to be able to direct films, or be an actor or a film composer, you need to have time. time to practice. time for demos. time to network etc. which means you cannot have a 9-5 job. and you dont get to direct or compose a feature every day. nope.. you get to have a few, maybe 2 movies a year which pays some but not enough for a whole year worth of bills until you reach a tall level. so either open a biz that its self sustain, have parents dough or get lucky and work at remote control. (not sure the director counterpart of that). 
which basically leaves a very few tier of composers to be able to be succesfull film composer, have the chops, have the money to sustian yourself for years and years, and be in LA going around town meeting poeple who can introduce you to a project. 
so thats my advice, have money or a side biz, go to LA and futher develop your friendships w directors and go to any stupid reunion there is. someones kid Birthday party could also be attended by a famous actor who might need a small project done. Or be involved in some charity or place where youllbe around new people. it doesnt have to be a networking event.


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## Studio E (Jan 23, 2020)

I've started this conversation before myself. Although the ultimate "thing" would be to get paid a LOT of money for INCREDIBLE projects, the sadder truth is that I barely connect with the majority of films these days anyway. When another forum member reached out and was nice enough to speak with me on the phone about me moving to LA, the thing that really resonated with me wasn't how stiff the competition was, but more of what I'd be fighting for for years. It's one thing to make great sacrifices to do something you feel strongly about, but to think of bidding against a kid living in his mom's basement in order to score some shitty b-grade horror flick....ugh. that sounds like Hell.

I wish I was doing more and bigger projects, bit I am indeed in-tight with a handful of film makers who really cherish what I bring to projects and I am always trying to push myself to get better. I am doing a decent amount of paid work that pays me more than having a 2nd job at McDonald's and it's a heck of a lot more fun. Beside that, I like my steady paycheck from the day job. I am super fortunate to have the job I do. It's rock-steady, pays a solid middle-income wage, and will provide a pension any time after 55. 

My 2-cents, is that it feels better to have security in life and to give passionately to projects worthy of it.


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## JohnG (Jan 23, 2020)

gsilbers said:


> to be able to direct films, or be an actor or a film composer, you need to have time. time to practice. time for demos. time to network etc. which means you cannot have a 9-5 job.



I think that's right. So for me one way to create that time was to earn from a grab-bag of jobs: little movies, a lot of trailer music, orchestrate, work on friends' projects. A lot of singles and doubles, but every one of those things teaches you something.

But @gsilbers is right -- to have those friends, you have to have *time* away from some day job. If you're always doing IT or working in marketing or something, how are you going to meet filmmakers?

Ideally, one would attempt the high-risk getting started phase before making commitments to others -- spouse, children especially. Otherwise you're gambling not just your own situation but theirs as well. Once you DO have those commitments, however, I think you have to do what Eric (@Studio E ) is doing, and honour them.


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## José Herring (Jan 23, 2020)

Fantastic post OP.

I too had similar thoughts to yours as I read through the Netflix thread. Interestingly enough most of the overly negative post on working in the industry of course come from people that have never worked in the industry as far as I can tell. I had crafted this long post then decided not to get involved. Luckily for me though, I did it within the thread and never posted so it was still there ready to be posted today.

I've decided to post it here because it is more appropriate to your topic.

Taken in reponse to the netflix thread:

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Aside from the no back end from streaming issue which is a real issue, getting a project is a good thing. So, does the project have to play on Netflix? No. What it is that you do want is to get associated with the production companies, post supervisors, vp's, producers and to a certain extent directors that are making projects. Some may be directly for Netflix, others that get picked up by Netflix (Negative pickup).

The movie/tv industry hasn't really changed in terms of the structure of a filmed production. What has changed is where it ends.

When, I started, if the film you did was headed for DVD it was considered a failure. Then the DVD market became the largest market for film. Then DVD movies got good and 90% of the movies made went to what they called then the "home" market. That "home" market is now the digital streaming market and DVD stores are a thing of the past. There was never any backend in the "home" market. So people kind of whining about not getting any backend for streaming while a valid whine have forgotten where we came from.

Now, I should mention that back in the day many of the "home" market films played on cable as well and that is were I got some $$$. But, then the cable markets got chopped up and divided. Now a blanket cable license gets you nothing. Went from 10's of thousands to literally 100's of dollars overnight.

So what does that mean. That means to pay attention to the front end payments. If they can't pay a lot on the upfront then get some backend cash as well once they sell the film to a distributor.

Those are some tricks I learned in my nearly 20 years of doing "home" entertainment films. It use to be DVD, there was no backend. That market is now the streaming market and it is interesting that the biggest player is Netflix which started out as a DVD delivery system. So make no mistake about it. Streaming came from the DVD market. There was never any backend in it. So to expect that there is going to be backend now or in the near future is ridiculous imo. So you need to be clever about your deal making.

In the end, if you like what's on Netflix then find the producers on imdb.com that have nextflix deals and start pitching to them. Get a hefty front end if you can because there will be no backend. Some really big TV and film composers are doing Netflix, Hulu, and Amazon Prime shows now, so the competition can be stiff, but don't be discouraged. Now more than ever scoring is anyone's game. But, you do have to make the contacts and they don't really have to be made at industry events. The phone and mail still work. Takes longer and more persistence, but I never forget that the former head of Disney, Michael Eisner, when he was starting out just sat down and wrote letters to executives until he finally got a job.

First, it's the contacts, then it's the rapport with the filmmakers then it's the kind of music and then at the very end you have to deliver the music.

So, never worry about "pitching your music". People could give a shit about your music. Pitch you. Then they will listen to your music. As a matter of fact, I have gotten to the point when people ask me that annoying question, "let me hear your music", I often just reply, "let's find out what's going to work on your project and then I'll come up with something". Takes a few nights of hard work then you pitch "your music". But, I've made this mistake over and over and over until it finally sunk in, you can't sell people on your music, you can sell people on your approach, get information, then give them what is needed and wanted for their project. If you don't do that you'll be sending in tracks for 3 weeks until they finally stop talking to you and have moved on. See, you never got what they were looking for so all your pitches on their mind were "wrong" and "don't fit" and you had just wasted all your time, energy, sending them unneeded and unwanted tracks. They were looking for Charlie Clouser and you kept on sending them you're best Hans Zimmer. They were looking for Junkie XL and you've sent them over your best John Williams, they fell in love with that indie score and you sent them your latest epic mockups, ect.. I've seen that happened over and over and over again. I've done it. Don't do it. Don't send music until you've at least gotten in communication with the filmmakers. Maybe a good general website with your music will get them interested, then you get in communication and find out what they really want.

In short, get the contact, get in communication, find out what they're looking for. The filmmakers have lived with the film for years sometimes, they've temped the living daylights out of it. They've been cutting their film/tv show to something. It may work or it may not work but get from them what does work and what isn't working, what they will accept and what they will reject. That's the important part.

There's a lot to say. I've said about a fraction of it. But, hopefully you'll get the gist. Don't worry about were it will end up, worry about the people and the projects you want to work on. Pitch yourself. There is only one you. Sell that guy. You'll click with somebody somewhere then work it.


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## C R C (Jan 23, 2020)

This is a great Thread. Thanks for starting it - looking forward to hearing more.


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## José Herring (Jan 23, 2020)

One last little story. One of the last films I did when I was busy scoring went down like this. I contacted the producer via email. The producer liked me and he introduced me to the director. The director liked me and told me what he was looking for. He was doing a horror monster movie type film shot in the backwoods of Louisiana. He was looking for authentic Dobro music. At the time I didn't even know what a Dobro was really. I had confused it with slide guitar. He patiently explained to me that no Dobro was more authentic southern than a slide guitar which was more west plains music. So I frantically searched for information on a Dobro. Found this one guy in Texas who had posted Dobro phrases online for people to use. I downloaded the phrases, put them in the DAW, dressed them up with synths, strings, ect.. Sent that to the director. He loved it. He went from not having any money for music to having a budget. 

So I got the gig, then contacted the Dobro player and hired him to play my themes throughout the movie. Now mind you 90% of that score was thriller horror music with orchestra and synths. I knew it would be. I have litterally 100's of hours of that stuff. If I had sent any of that he would have moved on. But, what I did send was that one thing that he wanted which comprised only 10% of his score and after that he accepted every cue I sent him with minor to no notes or changes. 

Just a small point to illustrate that it was never about the score, it was about 1 thing that he wanted, that I gave him then he accepted the entire score with no complaints.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 24, 2020)

cmillar said:


> I had to do it all myself with my keyboards/synths, or bring in REAL people to help me. I used what I had available at the time.... from 4-track Tascam cassette recorder, to using the built-in sequencer of my Korg M1, to using a Roland VS-880 digital recorder synched up to my Roland XP-880, to getting an 8-track digital Tascam deck, and then I finally got MOTU Performer (not Digital Performer...it didn't exist yet!) on a Mac Powerbook to record my Roland synths and rack mounts (Roland sampler, Proteus units, more Roland stuff, etc.) Walked around the city with my Mini-Disc recorder collecting sound for soundscapes and 'colors' that could be used as sound design.



Great post!

Yes, I remember those days well. I did a ton of music for live theatre throughout the 90's (and still do), but those were the days when a composer needed to be resourceful as hell. I also had a good ol' Tascam Portastudio and Mini-Disc; had to create all of my own sound effects. I think we all too often take the modern virtual instrument world for granted....I find it amusing when people are complaining about the most petty grievances with sample libraries. Back "then" there was a sense of personal satisfaction I got from seeing a production that had all of my hand crafted sound FX, and music that I coaxed out of my trustworthy Ensoniq and other relics. Oh yes, and also the $2000 I shelled out for my 486sx PC and Cakewalk 2.0.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 24, 2020)

josejherring said:


> So, never worry about "pitching your music". People could give a shit about your music.



On the contrary, my biggest gigs have come as direct result of this.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Jan 24, 2020)

Wolfie2112 said:


> those were the days when a composer needed to be resourceful as hell. I also had a good ol' Tascam Portastudio and Mini-Disc; had to create all of my own sound effects. I think we all too often take the modern virtual instrument world for granted....



The score I mentioned above was done with a piano, a Korg Lambda (for strings), and drums recorded live into a 1/4" reel-to-reel.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 24, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> I will try to make it in this biz till I die, but again that level of focus and commitment does not mean anything. Either I get lucky one day or I don't, PERIOD! Getting on the A-list for a writer, director or composer does not mean you are more talented than those not on the A-list.



Well said! Although I think one should jump in head first (with high hopes) early on, one needs to eventually realize the reality of the industry; which is why I always encourage the tunnel-vision composers, spinning their wheels, to seriously consider a Plan B career to fall back on...because they'll inevitably need one. That being said, you can still pursue the dream, but without scraping the bottom of the barrel every month. There's nothing soul-crushing about having a steady income (from a non-musical jib for example) while still chasing the dream. And you are right, a big factor in this whole thing is pure LUCK...being in the right place at the right time.


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## Beluga (Jan 25, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> Go talk to Richard Kraft and any major film composer manager or agent in Hollywood or any major agent of composers for Broadway and they will tell you that you have no clue what you are talking about regarding how viable and realistic it is for a new composer to be able to make a good living in the film and tv biz let alone Broadway. What they will tell you is to leave the biz immediately as it is IMPOSSIBLE to succeed in and build a career as a composer, not near impossible, IMPOSSIBLE! Go talk to Richard Kraft...



And yet Hildur Gudnadottir made it there and proved him wrong. You can see him gushing over her (and her agent?) in his Facebook Group.


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## Beluga (Jan 25, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> There will always be a handful of new people to make the A-list every year, but if you look at how many people are trying year after year it’s basically near impossible. And this is never about talent. The most talented don’t make it all the time. It’s not like one can reliably choose a film and tv composing career like it would be to say work for google Apple amazon ibm Wall Street dentistry medicine teaching law education engineering construction etc etc etc.... Getting a gig as a ballet dancer or in a symphony orchestra is not easy to pull off either but significantly easier than I want to be a film tv composer. Even acting is a significantly easier profession to enter and succeed at than composing. So for every person who makes it how many don’t? 99.9999999999% that’s how many don’t make it. Composing for film tv and Broadway are the most impossible professions to pursue. Directing is probably the second most difficult then writing ✍ for film tv and Broadway, but nothing is more impossible to get a big break in than trying to build a real lasting career as a film or tv composer.


Well TV and feature film is still different but you said specifically not near impossible but literally impossible. It’s clearly not but I agree it’s a highly risky business. There was someone here desperate on the forum looking for advice how to get started and he is now looking for an assistant in LA working for Bloody Fingers or what they are called. The Hans Zimmer TV studios. His name is Adam something from Vienna he is on this form. Wow! How do you get there? Networking I guess but it was still pretty improbable but he made it. Most composers seem to make it through Hans Zimmer which I personally think is a shame. So many composers brain washed into the same music style but this is what seems to work. And who am I to judge?


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## Beluga (Jan 25, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> I said it’s near impossible, Richard Kraft said it’s IMPOSSIBLE.


Yes you said he said and I said he is proven wrong by her (don’t make me spell that name again  )


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## Beluga (Jan 25, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


>



I have no idea why you are posting this but it’s funny..


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## Beluga (Jan 25, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> I was extrapolating on your sentiment as though you may have implied that your cousin (or anyone) asked you to spell that Icelandic composers name once...ONCE! As though you were implying for me to never ask you to spell it again echo echo echo echo.... Thus, it reminded me of Danny Vermin from Johnny Dangerously and how he might have replied to me if you were him. Or perhaps maybe Danny has possessed your spirit for a moment 👻


Haha OK I see yes I spelled it once  I might add I love the sound of these names they are just so damn hard to spell. Incredibly beautiful country, too..


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## dgburns (Jan 25, 2020)

I’d love to offer up some life changing advice, but truly, I just don’t know anymore what works and what doesn’t.

If Richard Kraft said anything that resonated with me it was “ To be a successful film composer is easy, if you are financially independent “

I can see that there is alot of truth to that.


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## Beluga (Jan 25, 2020)

dgburns said:


> If Richard Kraft said anything that resonated with me it was “ To be a successful film composer is easy, if you are financially independent “


Lol that must be the most un-helpful advice ever. I guess he is not talking day job since you wouldn’t have time to network or write music. So what? Win the lottery? Have rich parents (it worked for HZ)?


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## dgburns (Jan 25, 2020)

Beluga said:


> Lol that must be the most un-helpful advice ever. I guess he is not talking day job since you wouldn’t have time to network or write music. So what? Win the lottery? Have rich parents (it worked for HZ)?



Well, take it as you will. Richard reps a pretty good A list, and if anyone knows how to create a strategy to propel someone to an A list gig, it’s him. Richard has relationships with those that actually hire major studio projects.

Study each composer case, where they came from, what their approach was, what decisions they made, and what the people who support them (in business) offered. Usually what you find is that someone got attached to a show, along with a whole production crew, and if successful, that lot tend to stick together. It might take only a handful of very active producers to help carve out a career. These relationships can take years and years to develop. Some things are frankly just out of your control. Some decisions you make will hurt you. Like running after every gig that comes within your orbit. 

But I digress, there I go giving unwelcome advice again 

g’luck


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## Mike Fox (Jan 25, 2020)

My heart goes out to anyone who is trying to make a living as a film composer. That just sounds like something that would remove all the love and passion i have for music. Then again, I'm sure there are composers out there who get to experience artistic freedom as well as a paycheck.

I'm fortunate enough to be a stay at home dad, which allows me to not only be a probbyist, but also not have to worry about my music bringing in enough money to pay the bills.

But I'll tell ya one thing, being a stay at home dad is hard as fu$!, and some days i feel like I've lost my mind. Thank goodness for coffee and beer.


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## Beluga (Jan 25, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> If someone is financially independent and no one regularly hires them they won’t be a film composer just pretending or hoping to be one.


My thoughts exactly.


dgburns said:


> Well, take it as you will. Richard reps a pretty good A list, and if anyone knows how to create a strategy to propel someone to an A list gig, it’s him. Richard has relationships with those that actually hire major studio projects.
> 
> Study each composer case, where they came from, what their approach was, what decisions they made, and what the people who support them (in business) offered. Usually what you find is that someone got attached to a show, along with a whole production crew, and if successful, that lot tend to stick together. It might take only a handful of very active producers to help carve out a career. These relationships can take years and years to develop. Some things are frankly just out of your control. Some decisions you make will hurt you. Like running after every gig that comes within your orbit.
> 
> ...


Your advice is welcome but Richard Krafts advice doesn’t get better because he represents A-list composers. 

It looks like every career is so personal that you cannot actually reproduce them. Hell, I can’t even reproduce my own successes.

I agree with @Iswhatitis it comes down to a lot of luck.


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## JohnG (Jan 25, 2020)

dgburns said:


> Some decisions you make will hurt you. Like running after every gig that comes within your orbit.



Excellent overall advice, David.

Someone here wrote many years ago that trying to be all things and chasing every gig leads to a series of thankless, low-paying jobs that never take you anywhere. 

Why? Because the filmmakers who want "Hans but not so expensive" or "Tom Newman, but not so expensive," or ..... put the composer in the position of making low-budget, pale versions of the original music. And how trail-blazing is that director who wants a knock-off of a successful movie score?

Netflix, in former days, included tons of these retread movies -- lower budget me-too films, with lower budget action stars, and (very) low budget scores and lighting. I don't see those films much today.

Today, more even than in the past, I think it pays to _be yourself_ as much as possible, whether you're a filmmaker or composer or whatever. With the market so crowded for streaming and myriads of films clamouring for attention, being individual and differentiated is indispensable.


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## Mike Fox (Jan 25, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> Your argument or point is circular. You are not pessimistic but yet directors and writers cannot make a living either. Huh?! One of my dogs used to occasionally chase its tail too.
> 
> Go talk to Richard Kraft and any major film composer manager or agent in Hollywood or any major agent of composers for Broadway and they will tell you that you have no clue what you are talking about regarding how viable and realistic it is for a new composer to be able to make a good living in the film and tv biz let alone Broadway. What they will tell you is to leave the biz immediately as it is IMPOSSIBLE to succeed in and build a career as a composer, not near impossible, IMPOSSIBLE! That does not mean I would ever quit pursuing my career as a music artist just because I realize how difficult this biz is to make a living in. I don't care how long you have been in the biz as a publisher or that you may or may not have been able to make a good living as a composer. Maybe you would have and maybe you wouldn't. Also, first and lastly you say its possible but then you talk about how impossible it is to make a living in the biz as a director or writer. This forum is for composers not directors or writers nor a nasa astronaut wanna be. Though, I don't disagree with you in that respect in that trying to break into the biz and get onto the A-list whether you are a writer, film composer or director is near impossible, it is certainly easier for writers in that Hollywood is always looking for a good new horror screenplay whereas a composer has to get hired by a director or producer and that is extremely difficult to pull off.
> 
> 30 years ago I worked with talented young directors at NYU while they were in school, none of them made it in the biz in any significant way. I've sacrificed everything to make my music happen my entire career and it has my sole focus 24/7 for over 30 years, that does not mean anything and does not mean that just because I've risked it all my entire life on this pursuit it will play out in a way that some happy Hollywood ending unfolds, that's absurd. No one is ever anything but in awe of my talent, that does not mean anything either. One must get very lucky in this biz if you do not have massive connections, and most people will not get lucky like that. Most people who risk it all do not succeed in most businesses ie. restaurants, marriages, partnerships, you name it. Just because I live and breathe for my art means nothing to other people and certainly does not mean I will succeed in the way I am hoping to. To imply composers should not feel bad that they are not making a living in this biz because other directors and writers are struggling too does not move me in any way. To imply that some of us or I am being overly negative or pessimistic regarding how difficult this biz is does not make sense when in the end it seems that all you said was if you give it your all one will make it happen. That is DELUSIONAL thinking. Self-manifestation is hog wash! Go tell anyone with terminal cancer or in ICU or after they were hit by a drunken driver head on or by a train or hit by a bullet from a random driveby shooting or a child with terminal cancer that they can WILL themselves healthy if they just believe. This is not a movie. I have never let anything or anyone get in my way, and that means nothing too. In the end the odds are dramatically against me or anyone with high aspirations of succeeding especially in this biz. I am not negative, I am being realistic based on 30 plus years of dedication and experience. I will try to make it in this biz till I die, but again that level of focus and commitment does not mean anything. Either I get lucky one day or I don't, PERIOD! Getting on the A-list for a writer, director or composer does not mean you are more talented than those not on the A-list. Talent is not the main ingredient either. The hardest working people work in slaughterhouses, agricultural fields, and clean subway bathrooms, and yet all their hard work means NOTHING regarding if hard work, integrity, charisma, persistence, and dedication always lead to success. Nope, they don't most of the time. One needs huge connections that pull big time strings or massive amounts of luck, or Blessed Fate to play out, or divine intervention, all things none of us control. I've business networked for over 30 years, that means nothing too. I have worked for half the major studios in Hollywood as a composer for hire on major productions, so what. However, I still find building a career in this biz to be near impossible. It is much better for new composers to understand how impossible this biz is, though I am not telling anyone to quit either. Just don't delude yourself, that's all. Go talk to Richard Kraft...


You said you've worked on major Hollywood projects, but are still trying to build a career. Seems like that would be a big part of it, eh?


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## Mike Fox (Jan 25, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


>







Couldn't be more true!


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## Ivan M. (Jan 25, 2020)

TigerTheFrog said:


> So that’s my question to you: do you HAVE to be a composer for films?



I spent some time worrying a lot about not doing music the whole day, really wanted to earn from it, and researched a lot online to see how it goes, including here. 

Conclusion was a definitive NO, I absolutelly do not want to be in the business, everything I read about it is completelly repulsive. 

Therefore, I create music I like, I'm not wasting my creative time on comercial stuff. Limited time, yes, but such is life. I already have a job, and it pays me well, don't need another one. 

So I'll leave to the world what I really, honestly have to say (musically), and that's it. That's enough from me, and for me. If it gains attention, good, if not, still fine.


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## InLight-Tone (Jan 25, 2020)




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## cmillar (Jan 25, 2020)

More importantly, actually....

...is that we really have a bigger responsibility (as composers, musicians, artists) to keep the future of LIVE music alive and well.

If people are to value creative artists and live music, then most of us should probably put as much if not even more energy and thought into how to get audiences out to LIVE music/dance/art/theater/ballet/opera/etc. etc.

The corporations would like to keep people at home watching their TV/film shows.
Adveristisers and corporations want people to sit on their butts at home and get mesmerized by their screens, and perhaps buy some product on impulse. That's their business model.

That's always been the depressing reality.

Let's try not perpetuate it.


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## Arbee (Jan 25, 2020)

TigerTheFrog said:


> I was thinking of putting this in a thread on “Where or How do I submit my music for Netflix” but I don’t even know why I even looked into a thread about how to get a job at one of the two places most infamous for screwing over composers.
> 
> But there was some deep negativity about how impossible it is to become a composer for movies and TV, and it got me thinking, as I have made a living for 45 years in the film business, albeit as a publicist not as a composer. But I’ve known, and often been close friends with, hundreds of working directors and producers—the people who could potentially hire you.
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to share this gem of real world perspective, very much appreciated!


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## Alexandre (Jan 25, 2020)

josejherring said:


> Fantastic post OP.
> 
> I too had similar thoughts to yours as I read through the Netflix thread. Interestingly enough most of the overly negative post on working in the industry of course come from people that have never worked in the industry as far as I can tell. I had crafted this long post then decided not to get involved. Luckily for me though, I did it within the thread and never posted so it was still there ready to be posted today.
> 
> ...


Such useful information Jose!I think a lot of us can thank you for deciding to post...


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