# Ethical disclosure guidelines.



## Lindon (Sep 6, 2019)

Hi (Mike - really addressing this to you as its your forum to run as you please....)

I think its time we had some (at least) guidelines about full disclosure.

When an individual posts regularly about a named product, promoting its benefits and or the company the makes the product I think we should all know the posters relationship with the company involved and if they stand to gain some advantage (financial or otherwise), directly or indirectly from the promotion of the company or product.

Such information will allow us to make our own minds up about the opinions being expressed, perhaps that the poster has some real insights into the machinations of the product or company concerned, or perhaps we might see their commentary through a lens of their bias. 

If I were to post regularly about the fantastic capabilities of UVI's Falcon software in one of the forums it might come as a disappointment to later learn I worked for UVI on Falcon - I dont and never have by the way.

Of course there's no way to FORCE someone to admit they work as a contractor for company A on product B, but defining a set of guidelines I think is morally and ethically the right thing to do. 

Interested to know what you (all) think.


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## chillbot (Sep 6, 2019)

Hi guys and gals I just wanted to share I came across this super rad new sample library company they seem like really good dudes and they've donated ALL of their profits to charity to date! Also they make funny videos sometimes and I especially like the lali drums which are entirely FREE (though suggested donation is $5).

Here you go, enjoy!

www.botdogsamples.com


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## wst3 (Sep 6, 2019)

This has come up in the past, frequently really, and it seems like the rule of thumb is that people should identify when there is a potential for gain, since that could influence their opinions. Thus far it has been entirely voluntary, and near as I can tell, most folks have done just that, either in their signatures, or only in posts where they are talking about their employer.

It is, however, a double edged sword. It could lead to lots of PMs begging for discounts, or requesting support - and no one wants to voluntarily subject themselves to that. And while no one is ever dissatisfied with a purchase, if that were to happen the disappointment could surface here.

A far better solution - to me - is for folks who are employed by a developer simply refrain from posting about those products, or only post solutions, not opinions.

That leaves the topic of shills - sadly they will nor volunteer their status as an affiliate or associate or whatever. That's the group I would like to see regulated.


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## Mike Greene (Sep 6, 2019)

chillbot said:


> Hi guys and gals I just wanted to share I came across this super rad new sample library company they seem like really good dudes and they've donated ALL of their profits to charity to date! Also they make funny videos sometimes and I especially like the lali drums which are entirely FREE (though suggested donation is $5).
> 
> Here you go, enjoy!
> 
> www.botdogsamples.com


I have it on good authority that the guy who runs this company is a total jerk. Plus ugly. And smells bad. Cool lali drums and frog guiros, though, so even though these guys are sleazeballs, I got their libraries anyway.


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## wst3 (Sep 6, 2019)

I believe I am the one that started that rumor, but yeah, the libraries are cool!


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## d.healey (Sep 6, 2019)

YouTube does this kind of thing. A little "Paid promotion" notice appears in the bottom corner of such videos. Maybe there could be an icon or something that you could select when posting that would show it was an affiliated post.


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## Polkasound (Sep 6, 2019)

Chillbot, I heard that you know a guy who knows a guy, who once knew a guy whose sister used to walk dogs for a guy who was once engaged to a girl who knew the first guy's barber, whose kids were in the same Cub Scout troop as the kids of a lady who used to buy flowers from a guy who did some gardening for a guy who did some sampling for Bot Dog Samples.

Therefore, I have completely and utterly lost faith in anything you say about Bot Dog Samples.

B_o_t seriously...

Full disclosure is great, Lindon, and I support it wherever possible, but it is not always possible due to NDAs and not always practical due to other factors. In the case of the person to whom you're referring (based on another thread) he's an industry icon and one of the most respected members of the VI community. He has a reputation for never mincing his words nor leading people astray. If you are not all that familiar with him, then I can see why you might be concerned. He did publicly disclose as much as he could, just for your benefit.

The longer you belong to and participate in an online community like this one, the more astute you become in regard to taking or leaving what you read online based on who is doing the posting. There are guidelines in place to deter things like shilling and misrepresentation, but the people who knowingly commit such violations are obviously not going to disclose anything. The upstanding members of this community, however, have no problem with disclosing their affiliations.

Ultimately, the responsibility for what you do with what you read is always in your hands.


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## Mike Greene (Sep 6, 2019)

Lindon said:


> Hi (Mike - really addressing this to you as its your forum to run as you please....)
> 
> I think its time we had some (at least) guidelines about full disclosure.
> 
> ...


This is a tricky one for me to respond to, because this thread is not really about what it presents itself to be about. So ... I'll just give my thoughts about what's been going on this last day or two.

I've deleted a number of your other posts this morning in the NI Layoffs thread, where you needle Mario (EvilDragon) about whether his info is legit and you ask for names of superiors, etc. I'll leave this thread up (for now, at least) to give my thoughts on the matter.

For the record, as far as I'm concerned, Mario doesn't have to "prove" anything to any of us. He's at the very top of the list of people I trust. If Mario said NI was sending checks for a million dollars each to all the developers, I'd be running to my mailbox right now. 

Even on the topic of UVI/Falcon, Mario is very candid about the areas where it is superior to Kontakt. (And vice versa.) I have zero doubts about the integrity or motivations of anything he says. Zero. He certainly has opinions, but I never doubt for a second that they are sincere.

More to the point of what's going on here, though - It is not cool - at all - to get into an interrogation on this forum with someone who has the status of Mario. It reminds me of the Headshot thing with Hans, where Samy kept accusing and accusing (and accusing and accusing) Hans of lying about writing some big band cue. Totally inappropriate here.

Hans, Mario, or anyone else with established reputations (of which there are many here), should not ever have to "defend themselves." That turns their forum experiences into unpleasant ones, which means they'll be less inclined to keep visiting, which is obviously bad for all the rest of us.

On the more general topic of shills and full disclosure, etc. - That's not what this thread is really about, so I'll save that discussion for another time. (If someone really feels the need to raise the topic, please have a heart and wait a few weeks.  )


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## Lindon (Sep 6, 2019)

Mike Greene said:


> This is a tricky one for me to respond to, because this thread is not really about what it presents itself to be about. So ... I'll just give my thoughts about what's been going on this last day or two.
> 
> I've deleted a number of your other posts this morning in the NI Layoffs thread, where you needle Mario (EvilDragon) about whether his info is legit and you ask for names of superiors, etc. I'll leave this thread up (for now, at least) to give my thoughts on the matter.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry you feel this is not about ethical disclosure guidelines, I assure you it is from my point of view. I'm also sorry you feel I'm attacking Mario - I've known him for over 10 years, and I agree his technical information is very very often exactly on the money. It's true that Mario and my discussions elsewhere on the forum prompted me to write this post, it brought into focus how uncomfortable I feel about (often well intentioned) opinion being offered on topics where the poster has some "skin-in-the-game" but doesn't explicitly highlight that. That's not "Mario offering his opinion" its "anyone offering their opinion". I definitely DONT want this to be about an individual (me, him, you, anyone), I'm asking for a forum guideline that points us all down a more ethically grounded path.

I think Bill is pointing us in the right direction here:



wst3 said:


> This has come up in the past, frequently really, and it seems like the rule of thumb is that people should identify when there is a potential for gain, since that could influence their opinions. Thus far it has been entirely voluntary, and near as I can tell, most folks have done just that, either in their signatures, or only in posts where they are talking about their employer.
> 
> It is, however, a double edged sword. It could lead to lots of PMs begging for discounts, or requesting support - and no one wants to voluntarily subject themselves to that. And while no one is ever dissatisfied with a purchase, if that were to happen the disappointment could surface here.
> 
> ...



So if it's come up frequently perhaps we might address it?

Dave Healeys suggestion is good too.


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 6, 2019)

force every user to change their profile picture to them wearing a NASCAR style jacket - with a patch of the logo for every company they've received free products or money from. 

really though, can this start to go in reverse? If I talk up a product and someone buys it, can I start getting some $$$ for pushing their wares? 

Somewhat related, something probably equally misleading is people who make claims about a library because it's the only library they have and don't know any better. 

For instance, if someone ONLY had spitfire studio strings and just constantly says it's the best hands down ect, but their comparison is like kontakt factory. It's okay to give an account of how much you like x library and how it feels like it does what you need it to do without much fuss, but I feel like too many people make claims from the perspective that they actually have the competitor products to have made any useful comparison. 

And while we're at it, we should integrate the forum with native access so we can see who the pirates are > These suggestions have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I'd benefit from a community that values someone who "collects" sample libraries - rather than working composers who actually care about ROI. No conflict of interest here *whistles*


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 6, 2019)

Mike Greene said:


> More to the point of what's going on here, though - It is not cool - at all - to get into an interrogation on this forum with someone who has the status of Mario. It reminds me of the Headshot thing with Hans, where Samy kept accusing and accusing (and accusing and accusing) Hans of lying about writing some big band cue. Totally inappropriate here.
> 
> Hans, Mario, or anyone else with established reputations (of which there are many here), should not ever have to "defend themselves." That turns their forum experiences into unpleasant ones, which means they'll be less inclined to keep visiting, which is obviously bad for all the rest of us.



The bigger issue from my perspective in both scenarios - is that it causes people to pick sides, and ultimately starts a downhill spirals of interactions between those people. It just creates enemies out of people who would otherwise be friends - and it becomes a little tit for tat in future interactions that snowballs into an irrepairable relationship. The argument between 2 people is ultimately a drop in the bucket in comparison to the vibe/tension it creates for the others in the forum. Maybe it doesn't need to be policed, but seasoned members should definitely be aware of the ripple effect it has - when weighing out the worth of being right.

the NI thread didn't escalate nearly to the point of headshot, but in headshots case - it carved out a group of talented and knowledgeable members, and pitted them against the rest of the forum until they were essentially exiled literally or functionally. All over a cue from a money most of us have never seen. Granted the greater point of the argument might have applied to other movies - but even if Hans Zimmer never wrote a single note of his own in is life, a lot of enemies were created, and whatever useful talents/knowledge members involved(both for an against) had been dimmed or snuffed out simply due to the lingering animosity from picking sides. Sure plenty of talented and knowledgeable members werent involved, but both those who simply backed off, or those who got caught up in it - had some very impressive work. And given anyone can get a composer cloud subscription - the barrier for entry is basically non existant for VI, so losing even 3-4 talented VI users is very unfortunate for the signal/noise ratio.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 7, 2019)

Even when I worked for EastWest as their Online Coordinator, I never saw Kontakt or other engine developers as somehow my "enemy." Indeed, I reviewed a bunch of them positively (and yes, they gave me NFRs) and became very friendly after meeting them at NAMM, great guys like Tari, Simone of Chocolate Audio, Paolo of Fluffy Audio, Trace of Indiginus, and on and on.

Mario is the most honest and knowlegeable Kontakt user I have encountered. I don't give a big rat's honey about what he does and doesn't receive from N.I. I don't believe for a nanosecond he would state something he didn't believe was true, just as I never did when I was paid by EW.


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## Lindon (Sep 7, 2019)

Ashermusic said:


> Even when I worked for EastWest as their Online Coordinator, I never saw Kontakt or other engine developers as somehow my "enemy." Indeed, I reviewed a bunch of them positively (and yes, they gave me NFRs) and became very friendly after meeting them at NAMM, great guys like Tari, Simone of Chocolate Audio, Paolo of Fluffy Audio, Trace of Indiginus, and on and on.
> 
> Mario is the most honest and knowlegeable Kontakt user I have encountered. I don't give a big rat's honey about what he does and doesn't receive from N.I. I don't believe for a nanosecond he would state something he didn't believe was true, just as I never did when I was paid by EW.


I dont think anyone is saying that he would say something he didn't believe to be true, I for one have never seen him do that in the 10 years I've been here. But it is good to get the context of his comments.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 7, 2019)

Lindon said:


> I dont think anyone is saying that he would say something he didn't believe to be true, I for one have never seen him do that in the 10 years I've been here. But it is good to get the context of his comments.



The only context that matters to me personally, is that he is knowledgeable and honest.


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## Mike Greene (Sep 7, 2019)

ProfoundSilence said:


> ... in headshots case - it carved out a group of talented and knowledgeable members, and pitted them against the rest of the forum until they were essentially exiled literally or functionally.
> ... a lot of enemies were created, and whatever useful talents/knowledge members involved(both for an against) had been dimmed or snuffed out simply due to the lingering animosity from picking sides.
> ... so losing even 3-4 talented VI users is very unfortunate for the signal/noise ratio.


Exactly. Several of the exiles, including Samy, are very, very talented, and it really is too bad they're gone. That's something I don't want to repeat.


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## Mike Greene (Sep 7, 2019)

Lindon said:


> So if it's come up frequently perhaps we might address it?


My feeling is that the issue you described in your opening post _doesn't_ come up very often, so I'm wary of applying a cure that winds up being worse than the problem it was supposed to solve.

VI-Control has very few rules or guidelines. That works because we're fortunate that the membership is sophisticated enough to moderate itself. We're really lucky that way. Most of us know instinctively what is cool and what is not.

I'll go so far as to say that most of the actions moderators take here do not have specific rules guiding them. Last night, for instance, I deleted a thread where someone asked if Danny Elfman is a Scientologist. I don't think we have a rule against that, but 99% of us know instinctively that that thread ain't gonna end well. Obviously, 1% _doesn't_ automatically know that, so we deal with them on a case by case basis. It's not that hard.

Anyway, the original issue this thread was motivated by is resolved, so that's as far as I'll go for now. The broader topic of shills and reliability of reviews and stuff is certainly valid, but I'm not getting involved in that for at least a few weeks. (Spoiler alert - I'm very doubtful we can come up with new policies that would solve those issues without turning the forum into a disclaimery mess.)


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## Lindon (Sep 7, 2019)

Mike Greene said:


> Exactly. Several of the exiles, including Samy, are very, very talented, and it really is too bad they're gone. That's something I don't want to repeat.


Which is exactly why I think having a set of (suggested) guidelines might help head off this sort of issue. I certainly know a number of people who used to be very active here who these days dont show up much any more because of (their) perception that "its a Kontakt-only space" - which I've tried to argue isnt the case, but my feeling is this is getting harder and harder to justify.


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## Mike Greene (Sep 7, 2019)

Lindon said:


> Which is exactly why I think having a set of (suggested) guidelines might help head off this sort of issue. I certainly know a number of people who used to be very active here who these days dont show up much any more because of (their) perception that "its a Kontakt-only space" - which I've tried to argue isnt the case, but my feeling is this is getting harder and harder to justify.


Totally agreed that the forum is very heavy on Kontakt, but I don't know what rules would solve that. I'm not going to tell Mario to stop being helpful.  

FWIW, I offered to UVI to have their own subforum where they could promote their platform and answer coding questions and stuff. (I like the idea of more competition and the UVI platform is very cool. I'm also hoping HISE becomes a bigger thing.) The only requirement was that they would keep a presence here so that questions would get answered and the subforum wouldn't turn into a ghost town. They never got back to me on it, although the offer still stands.


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 7, 2019)

Mike Greene said:


> Exactly. Several of the exiles, including Samy, are very, very talented, and it really is too bad they're gone. That's something I don't want to repeat.



And that's just the obvious case - the not so obvious case, were the grudges that members here hold under the surface against each other - that end up being little bits of slights/attitude sprinkled in their interactions between one another. They might not even speak up about it, and one day they'll help pile on if they have the opportunity.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 7, 2019)

ProfoundSilence said:


> And that's just the obvious case - the not so obvious case, were the grudges that members here hold under the surface against each other - that end up being little bits of slights/attitude sprinkled in their interactions between one another. They might not even speak up about it, and one day they'll help pile on if they have the opportunity.




But people can battle and later find a way to co-exist. Daniel James and I had some epic go rounds for a while, but eventually we agreed to disagree on almost everything but be polite to each other. 

I don't hold any grudge and I don't think he does either. OTOH, there is one person who only comes here occasionally because of me I think, and I _do_ hold a grudge against him. But when he posts, I just treat him as if I am meeting him for the first time and if I have a comment, make it with that attitude.


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## robgb (Sep 7, 2019)

Mike Greene said:


> Totally agreed that the forum is very heavy on Kontakt, but I don't know what rules would solve that.


Nor should you try to solve it, IMO, since about 80% of the sampling market is Kontakt related.


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 7, 2019)

robgb said:


> Nor should you try to solve it, IMO, since about 80% of the sampling market is Kontakt related.


it's a full kontakt sport 'round the parts


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## Daniel James (Sep 7, 2019)

Ashermusic said:


> But people can battle and later find a way to co-exist. Daniel James and I had some epic go rounds for a while, but eventually we agreed to disagree on almost everything but be polite to each other.
> 
> I don't hold any grudge and I don't think he does either. OTOH, there is one person who only comes here occasionally because of me I think, and I _do_ hold a grudge against him. But when he posts, I just treat him as if I am meeting him for the first time and if I have a comment, make it with that attitude.



I don't hold any grudges to you at all mate. I think you are actually a very valuable member here! particularly when it comes to Logic stuff 

-DJ


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 7, 2019)

Daniel James said:


> particularly when it comes to Logic stuff



Jay Asher DESTROYS dj with LOGIC and FAX(Compilation 2019)

man these algorithms are the gift that keeps on givin


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## Lindon (Sep 8, 2019)

Mike Greene said:


> Totally agreed that the forum is very heavy on Kontakt, but I don't know what rules would solve that. I'm not going to tell Mario to stop being helpful.


Mike, can we please please please stop talking about Mario. I for one am uncomfortable talking about him when he's not here (or isnt commenting). I have no problem with Mario, he's a good guy who is genuinely helpful, no one as far as I can see is saying anything different (not me anyway).

To be clear, and if you look back thru this thread you will see I've said this already: this is not about any individual, - you, me, Mario, Jo down the street - anyone.

What I am asking for is a simple guideline that says when you are commenting about a product or service and you have some financial involvement with the product, service or company that provides it you should clearly identify this relationship, and you should also identify this relationship when you are talking about competitor, products or services. I'm not talking about reviews or demos just plain old Sample Talk posts.

I am NOT saying people (anyone) here is maliciously using the forum to promote or detract from a product or service -but we all have bias and I think its only fair when that bias may influence what you say that you make sure everyone else reading your post is aware of your context.

How is this a problem for any fair minded and well intention-ed person, including Mario? (Damn I mentioned Mario again...)


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## Loïc D (Sep 8, 2019)

Speaking of which, I’m pretty sure that 2 contributors nicknamed CH and PT are somehow related to Spitfire Audio.
My 2 cents...


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 8, 2019)

LowweeK said:


> Speaking of which, I’m pretty sure that 2 contributors nicknamed CH and PT are somehow related to Spitfire Audio.
> My 2 cents...



chris hein and pro tools spitfire shills confirmed


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## Ashermusic (Sep 8, 2019)

Daniel James said:


> I don't hold any grudges to you at all mate. I think you are actually a very valuable member here! particularly when it comes to Logic stuff
> 
> -DJ



Good, and thanks for the kind words. I know that your contributions here are highly valued by many.


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## Mike Greene (Sep 8, 2019)

Lindon said:


> ...
> 
> What I am asking for is a simple guideline that says when you are commenting about a product or service and you have some financial involvement with the product, service or company that provides it you should clearly identify this relationship, and you should also identify this relationship when you are talking about competitor, products or services. I'm not talking about reviews or demos just plain old Sample Talk posts.
> 
> ...


I think I explained this earlier in the thread. To recap -

1. I don't consider the scenario you describe to be much a problem here.

2. New rules often create new problems, so I'm very reluctant to make any changes unless a problem is significant. 

3. Maybe I'm wrong about #1 or #2, but this isn't a good time right now, so post a new thread in a few weeks if this is still on your mind then.


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## gpax (Sep 8, 2019)

Lindon said:


> What I am asking for is a simple guideline that says when you are commenting about a product or service and you have some financial involvement with the product, service or company that provides it you should clearly identify this relationship, and you should also identify this relationship when you are talking about competitor, products or services. I'm not talking about reviews or demos just plain old Sample Talk posts.


I take a different approach in that it’s nobody’s business whom I beta test for. Part of respecting the NDAs I agree to are my personal policy of also keeping my involvement anonymous. I’ve commented on countless things I’m not developmentally connected to, and a few that I have been a part of.


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## babylonwaves (Sep 8, 2019)

Lindon said:


> What I am asking for is a simple guideline that says when you are commenting about a product or service and you have some financial involvement with the product, service or company that provides it you should clearly identify this relationship, and you should also identify this relationship when you are talking about competitor, products or services.


this is difficult. there are people here who're helping others and still, they prefer to keep their involvement with a 3rd party confidential. one good reason might be that those can't or don't want to be a spokesman. maybe they're not entitled, maybe they help in their spare time and don't fancy the fuss doing that with an official badge on. or, they're under NDA and the NDA doesn't allow them to line out their involvement. i don't think we have a problem here, maybe we have a couple of shills but then, they're not really worse than obsessive fanboys.


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## hawpri (Sep 8, 2019)

gpax said:


> I take a different approach in that it’s nobody’s business whom I beta test for. Part of respecting the NDAs I agree to are my personal policy of also keeping my involvement anonymous. I’ve commented on countless things I’m not developmentally connected to, and a few that I have been a part of.


Does beta testing always constitute a financial involvement? I was almost involved in beta testing with one company once but never got to do it. I don't really know what's involved. I also haven't been under any NDAs, but I did received an NFR copy of some libraries and have won libraries in raffles, but I digress.



> Lindon said:
> What I am asking for is a simple guideline that says when you are commenting about a product or service and you have some financial involvement with the product, service or company that provides it you should clearly identify this relationship, and you should also identify this relationship when you are talking about competitor, products or services.



There is a different user experience when receiving something of value at no cost, whether for testing or as a prize, when purchasing the same item, or when you work for the company that created it. I think that's what you're getting at, is that right?

While each hypothetical party has valid opinions and (very likely) some valuable information about a library, it's nice to know where people are coming from while a prospective user is researching and/or shopping around. It's hard to say if knowing is a must. Having expressed that sentiment, with one exception, I don't think it's been a visible(?) issue at VI-C. I've been visiting the forum since 2011 or so. I'm sure the powers that be are already keeping an eye on the forum and will take action if/when necessary.

In the meantime if anyone wants to throw free libraries at me, I have hard drive space.


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## Kony (Sep 8, 2019)

Lindon said:


> I am NOT saying people (anyone) here is maliciously using the forum to promote or detract from a product or service -but we all have bias and I think its only fair when that bias may influence what you say that you make sure everyone else reading your post is aware of your context.


I think this is only a problem if you rely on the opinion of just one person, but I'm not sure many people here do that. It doesn't sound like you would rely on the opinion of just one person so it's not clear what the problem is here. 

If there is an overly-favourable reply from a member who is "connected" to a product, that will be tempered by the numerous other comments from other members who are not connected to said product. 

If you are concerned about getting advice from a dev because the advice sounds too "insightful" (for want of a better word) and you become suspicious, simply ask that person if they have an affiliation. Simples....


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## gpax (Sep 8, 2019)

hawpri said:


> Does beta testing always constitute a financial involvement? I was almost involved in beta testing with one company once but never got to do it. I don't really know what's involved. I also haven't been under any NDAs, but I did received an NFR copy of some libraries and have won libraries in raffles, but I digress.


Some beta teams I have been invited to join offer nothing in terms of an NFR at all. I personally have never received monetary payment as such (though I was sent an unsolicited gift, once), and I’m not sure where money exists as far as non-employee testers are concerned, except where I know contracted professionals have sometimes been involved.

Some in this forum point to the NFR as compensation (and hence potential bias associated), though my investment testing 20 - 40 hours for products that average between $200 - $300 invites a bit more discussion as to what compensation itself means. I’ve finished some beta experiences questioning if I would do another one. For me personally, beta testing is a process of choice where I’m sometimes drawn to being a part of the new thing, or honored to be, but where at other times I may decline, as it’s cheaper to buy it myself in terms of investment of time. But for free product? Not really, as it’s never felt _free_ in the end. That, and beta NFRs represent a small segment of the tools I pay for myself.

How one starts testing varies. I have always been invited to join teams (with the exception of requesting to preview a release of Ableton years ago), the result of which seems to be after prolonged periods of sending feedback, or in the case of a recent invite, challenging their notion of what it means to design for the visually impaired. It’s been said we are all unwitting beta testers in the end, and I agree.


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## hawpri (Sep 8, 2019)

gpax said:


> Some beta teams I have been invited to join offer nothing in terms of an NFR at all. I personally have never received monetary payment as such (though I was sent an unsolicited gift, once), and I’m not sure where money exists as far as non-employee testers are concerned, except where I know contracted professionals have sometimes been involved.
> 
> Some in this forum point to the NFR as compensation (and hence potential bias associated), though my investment testing 20 - 40 hours for products that average between $200 - $300 invites a bit more discussion as to what compensation itself means. I’ve finished some beta experiences questioning if I would do another one. For me personally, beta testing is a process of choice where I’m sometimes drawn to being a part of the new thing, or honored to be, but where at other times I may decline, as it’s cheaper to buy it myself in terms of investment of time. But for free product? Not really, as it’s never felt _free_ in the end. That, and beta NFRs represent a small segment of the tools I pay for myself.
> 
> How one starts testing varies. I have always been invited to join teams (with the exception of requesting to preview a release of Ableton years ago), the result of which seems to be after prolonged periods of sending feedback, or in the case of a recent invite, challenging their notion of what it means to design for the visually impaired. It’s been said we are all unwitting beta testers in the end, and I agree.


Interesting! Thanks for the thorough response.


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## wst3 (Sep 9, 2019)

did I just read the word "grudge"?

Folks, it is my opinion only, but if you have a grudge against a fellow musician for something they said about a product you need to seriously evaluate your perspective.

Mike is correct that I took the issue to be much broader when I said that the question comes up frequently. The general question of shills and affiliates and the like comes up more frequently than I'd like it to, but specific gripes such as the OP do not.

We (this community) have scared away some talented folks. In some of those cases I think we are poorer for it. In some cases I think maybe that's just the way it has to be. Talented folks can have quirks, just like anyone else. (I heard someone suggest I have quirks??? Really???)

I like Mario a lot. I find him to be knowledgeable, and helpful, and remarkably generous with his time and knowledge. He is also somewhat outspoken, which (to me) suggests that is far from beholden to any developer. He speaks his mind, he shares his opinions, and he doesn't apologize unless someone can demonstrate he misspoke (which ain't easy - he may be a little outspoken, but thus far he seems to be very careful when he speaks.)

There is also the issue of the internet masking intentions - it is difficult to fully comprehend the message behind the message when all you have to go on is text. I think that has started more dust ups around here than anything.

full disclosure - I have, from time to time, made statements that some considered bold, and I've been called out on them. As long as it doesn't get personal I'll gladly discuss. And when it does get personal I disengage. I have spent a few hours in recording studios, that is the area where I feel most comfortable contributing. I've had some amazing mentors. If I choose to share what I've learned, or question a statement in that arena it is based on my experience, and I try to highlight that distinction, but sometimes I guess I don't do it well. So yes, I have a stake (we all do really) in this. I applaud those that share their knowledge, and I cringe a little bit when they are attacked for it.


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## EvilDragon (Sep 9, 2019)

I am not exactly sure what to add to this thread, but I am glad I'm being appreciated by you lot. I mean... who wouldn't like that? 


I must say I did consider Lindon's questioning a bit overly enthusiastic, shall we say. It's true I was intentionally vague - because I have every right to do that (free speech and all that). Granted, my contract with NI doesn't state that I should not say to anyone ever that I'm in any way associated with NI (on the other hand, IIRC Steinberg's NDAs do contain such a clause). However I was thinking maybe it seemed obvious that it could be deduced that I'm actually working in some capacity for NI now, after all these years (!) of being the unofficial KSP encyclopaedia. That's the reasoning behind the "put 2 and 2 together" statement I made in that other thread.


Also I want to say that I am really happy that people can read from my posts that what I'm doing on all the various fora is just me being outspoken, speaking my mind without any sort of filter (I find that sort of communication despicable), even if it's a competing product (i.e. Falcon), and sticking with my guns until somebody proves me wrong (which is not an unheard of occurence!). There is no reason to hide behind fabricated personas. I am me, everywhere you stumble upon me online or IRL. I won't stop being me, whether you like it or not.


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## eph221 (Sep 9, 2019)

Rule #1: when you're trying to be funny, don't be clever.


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## EvilDragon (Sep 10, 2019)

Who says I was trying to be funny?


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## Lindon (Nov 3, 2019)

OK a couple of months has passed, so...

Here's what I suggested:

What I am asking for is a simple guideline that says when you are commenting about a product or service and you have some financial involvement with the product, service or company that provides it you should clearly identify this relationship, and you should also identify this relationship when you are talking about competitor, products or services. I'm not talking about reviews or demos just plain old Sample Talk posts. 

I'll even write a (draft) guideline:

" Ethical Disclosure Guideline:

When you are posting about a person, company, service or product that you have some financial, or other beneficial involvement with its best if you make it explicitly clear that you have this relationship. After all it may add weight to your post; you may have a much better understanding of the issue at hand, and it will give everyone an understanding of your role.

Note this is a guideline, if you are looking to get some sort of policing on this then your completely out of luck, if someone ignores this guideline feel free to point them at it, but no one is getting banned or sanctioned in any way for ignoring it"


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