# New Year's resolution on post derailment - any takers?



## Arbee (Dec 27, 2013)

I have a vision for the new year at VI control.....

....one where commercial announcements can be exactly that - commercial announcements, to keep me up up to date with releases that I may otherwise miss (and that's _all_ I want commercial announcments to do). 

....where posts with interesting subject lines might contain more relevant content than derailments (how many times have we lost minutes of our lives we'll never get back by wading through potentially interesting threads and trying to filter out the crossfire between forum members?). 

....where folk can express positive views about EastWest products (and Kirk Hunter products it seems) and negative views about Spitfire products and others.

....any more??

Somebody wake me up o=<

.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 27, 2013)

Oy.

In what way have you been denied your right to express your opinion about anything on V.I.C.?


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## Arbee (Dec 27, 2013)

Oy back atya (and I hope you had a great Christmas!) :lol: . Not really about me, except for the part about trawling commercial announcements and other posts that look interesting only to find they got lost along the way. 

Have a happy and successful 2014!

Cheers,

Robert


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 27, 2013)

re: # 3, I think he means the ability to state an unpopular opinion without fearing his ears or brain will be questioned.

Seems reasonable to me.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 27, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> re: # 3, I think he means the ability to state an unpopular opinion without fearing his ears or brain will be questioned.
> 
> Seems reasonable to me.



Yes, I have tremendous difficulty with that one, as I'm sure is obvious to all :wink: 

Edit- and you do too Jay Asher, you fragile flower!

HNY to you too, Arbee!


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 27, 2013)

Arbee @ Fri Dec 27 said:


> I have a vision for the new year at VI control.....
> 
> ....one where commercial announcements can be exactly that - commercial announcements, to keep me up up to date with releases that I may otherwise miss (and that's _all_ I want commercial announcments to do).
> 
> ...



+1 If this could happen, and I believe it would require additional moderation and the cooperation of forum members, it would certainly improve the quality of this forum. If forums only had exit interviews, I'm confident that some of the things you've mentioned above have negatively impacted the growth of this community.


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## Arbee (Dec 28, 2013)

can I add one more?

...where customers, potential customers and developers show each other some basic mutual respect, empathy and open mindedness.

.


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## dannthr (Dec 28, 2013)

Ironically, this thread has nothing to do with Sample Libraries.


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## ProtectedRights (Dec 28, 2013)

@Arbee:

+1

especially #3

Not only is the problem that critics of Spitfire will be denied ears and brains, but also they will be shouted down tenfold, to fulfill the rule that he is right who shouts loudest.

@NYC composer: while *technically* everybody is free here, Arbee is talking about the strong sect-like movements here, and he is right.


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## korgscrew (Dec 28, 2013)

Threads and posts in Commercial Announcements should only be allowed by pre-vetted members. IE Developers. 

Then maybe a separate forum for discussions on said announcements.


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 28, 2013)

Like the ideas here, but suspect - like most new years resolutions - all the good intentions might not make it past the first 24 hours. So here's a counter suggestion...

The issue of moderation, especially with regard to interaction with devs, keeps coming up here. Commercial Announcements seems to be the place which has the most potential to go wildly off the rails. So how about everything stays the same EXCEPT for Commercial Announcements. Rather than just restrict it to devs posting with no input from regular members (which would imo be too restrictive in terms of genuine questions etc), this could become a far more strictly moderated environment. Posts should be strictly on topic regarding the product at hand, factual, not hostile in tone etc and any post in violation could be removed without warning. Potentially, even fanboy one-line "yes, so excited about this" posts could be as unwelcome as "what a pile of crock" ones, while posts along the lines of "is this a Kontakt Player library / what kind of resource requirements are needed / is there microtuning etc" would be welcome. Not that one couldn't express positive things, but that wouldn't be a sole reason to post.

Of course this would mean far greater moderation time and resources, perhaps there could be some redistribution of moderation effort?

If that sounds like Northern Sounds, I'd argue the crucial difference is that it's just one subforum - all the usual arguments can still take place where they are meant to, just not in the announcements thread. I think a huge plus for this is it would be a kind of safe haven for developers, many of whom may choose to only interact in that thread and avoid all the spiralling negativity and derailed arguments which we all know too well.

As consumers, we can still speak freely elsewhere on the forum. Indeed, this could potentially be a win win. If someone wants to vent over a library from a well regarded developer, go ahead - people may feel they can speak more freely when the developer (hopefully) won't be present to take offence. It still shouldn't be a free for all and I'd also hope that a bit of basic manners and decency would apply, but the specific issue of hurting developers feelings by posting a a negative reaction would cease to be an issue if developers stuck to the CA subforum. And of course, any developer could still read and write in any thread, but it would very much be a case of "on your own head be it".


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## Arbee (Dec 28, 2013)

I could easily live with a heavily moderated Commercial Announcements sub-forum, with the related "what do you think of <insert product x>?" etc threads over in Sample Talk.


.


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## TheUnfinished (Dec 28, 2013)

It's slightly tragic that we are having to discuss moderators getting involved when the underlying message in Arbee's post "Why don't we try not to be dicks to each other?"

We should be able to manage it without having our hands held.

A couple of notable troll-esque types have disappeared this year, which is good. 

I honestly think that a simple matter of taking a moment to think about what you're writing and the language you use, on both sides. One can discuss a sample library without comparing it to the works of Adolf Eichmann, and equally one can release a sample library without suggesting it will help the user to a new level of consciousness.

So, yeah, altogether now "Don't be a dick!"


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 28, 2013)

Matt - if only...


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## rayinstirling (Dec 28, 2013)

All we have to do is give our opinion without reference to someone else's?
Simples!


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## Scrianinoff (Dec 28, 2013)

Why not have an "ignore" button for every post, let's say next to the "report" button at the top-right of every post. A number could be printed next to this "ignore" button, indicating how many members have pressed the ignore button. In the "Preference" section of the "User control panel" you could then setup when certain posts are hidden for you, for instance from only one other person having pressed the ignore button, or at least 5 persons, or any arbitrary number.

I share your dream Arbee.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 28, 2013)

Why is it not obvious that we can be honest without being unkind? Is it not simply common sense that to say e.g " I don't like the sound of that library's tone" is honest, but not unkind as opposed to "I think the sound of that library's tone is dreadful and and the developers and the people who say they like it must be deaf if they don't hear it" is unkind and unnecessary.

Do we really need the mods or devices to make us behave as decent human beings?


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## Scrianinoff (Dec 28, 2013)

Yes, we really do need the mods and devices. For about the same reasons we need cops and laws. I also wish we could do without, but we cannot, it's human nature.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 28, 2013)

Scrianinoff @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> Yes, we really do need the mods and devices. For about the same reasons we need cops and laws. I also wish we could do without, but we cannot, it's human nature.



You are probably right, and that is the saddest statement I have had to write all year.


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## Scrianinoff (Dec 28, 2013)

Sad? Yes. We should also be glad though. We have put in place laws, cops and mods to protect ourselves from the negative aspects of our human nature, in order to have more time and energy to enjoy the positive aspects. That's civilization, taking care of uncivilized behaviour.

So how about this "ignore" button? It's probably too much web programming work though.


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## Dan Mott (Dec 28, 2013)

How about just manually ignoring the dicks.

It's pretty easy to do online. 

It's odd though. If I see a dick post, it doesn't bother me at all. I just think to my self that one is a dick and I move on :D

I don't think it affects this place at all and I'm sure if the dicks post too many dick things, then that dick will be kicked from the forum.

Lot's a good folks here and if ONE or TWO dicks are going to make you leave........... common... as if. How can one little dick make you decide to leave a great forum.

We are all good.


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## dpasdernick (Dec 28, 2013)

Dan Mott @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> How about just manually ignoring the dicks.
> 
> It's pretty easy to do online.
> 
> ...



Dan,

This is all well and good but how do you feel about the dicks on this forum?


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## Astronaut FX (Dec 28, 2013)

I've only been a member for about three months. Initially, I was quite pleased to observe that this place exhibited very little of the childishness I had experienced elsewhere (KVR, GearSlutz, Harmony Central). Lately however, I've seen a fair amount of ugliness.

It's a different kind of ugliness though. There is not as much of the expensive vs. cheap elitism that I've seen in other forums. There is less of the juvenile, vulgar threats and language. But there is more hurt feelings exhibited by developers, and pitchforkesque mob mentality with regard to some developer's fans.

I think it has to do with how unique this place is from a psychological/economical standpoint. I can't think of another product or product line for which the consumers of that product can interact so closely, so immediately, and so publicly with those who design/develop/sell the products. None, and I've thought a great deal about it.

Add to that the fact that the products being designed/developed/sold are done so by folks who have a much more intimate attachment to the products. I believe that most developers are also musicians and/or composers, and they initially enter development by creating something to suit their own personal use. They are more skilled in the creative arts and maybe a bit less so as sales/marketing arts (some have some very slick visual marketing elements, but can seem lacking in the customer relations area). Thus, they are very deeply attached and personally invested in the products they develop. Criticism of these products are often taken as personally as a criticism of their own children.

When you combine that level of attachment to the development of a product with the immediacy and public nature of a discussion forum, and add a dash of "the internet is a safe haven to behave in a way that we may not otherwise behave" then you have the recipe for some of what goes on here.

- People being ostracized for liking what they shouldn't
- People being ostracized for not liking what they should
- People being ostracized for making criticisms
- People being ostracized for blind product worship
- Developers with "how dare you criticize" attitudes
- Etc.

It makes sense when you think about it, and because of that, I'm not sure that there is a solution beyond understanding this combination of factors and asking that each of us try to exercise some restraint and respect within our posts. We're all people, assumedly people who love music, love making music, and should try to celebrate what we have in common and try to keep that in mind as we interact.

Sermon over...Happy New Year!


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 28, 2013)

Nice post, Tone Deaf, some good insights I think.

IMO though (not specifically addressing you Tone Deaf, but many of the posters here), appeals for everyone to play nice aren't really going to solve the problem. Such appeals have been made before and will continue no doubt. I don't think it really has a handle on the dynamic at work here. The more I think about it, separating posters into dicks and non-dicks is - shock - perhaps just a little too simplistic to cover the range - and rage - we see here at VI-C. Look at some of the posts of the past 24 hours - I seemed to read a world of rage when I logged on this morning. Is it really that a few people are ignorant dicks causing trouble wherever they go and the rest are decent, or is it more nuanced than that?

Piet divides opinion here, but he's a terrific composer who knows his stuff, so its not a case (as is often suggested) that only those without talent or experience throw stones here (typical riposte to the iconoclast - "oh yeah, well then post your stuff and let's see what you're made of" - try that with Piet). I could be way off (always dangerous ground to suggest how someone is thinking) but it comes across as if he genuinely feels he needs to say what he does "for the greater good" - the crimes against music as perceived by him are more important to him than social graces, and putting things in a temperate manner would not convey his depth of feeling. If that's correct (might not be) I think it's OTT, but I respect his right to say what he says and how he says it. Among all that righteous if articulate rage and occasional venom, it's pretty rare not to find a point at least worthy of serious consideration, whether or not he's swimming with or against the tide.

In short, I'm glad he's here and would miss him if he stopped posting (which I suspect would be the more likely outcome if it were a choice of toning it down vs leaving).

Then there's dem devs. At least two of the biggest developers have publicly struggled with life here at VI-C, either overtly or more subtly suggesting they may bail completely. Since Jay Asher's role has been, at least in part, to be a buffer between the unruly masses and the East West devs, its not a new problem. Do we as a community want this to continue and to further jeapordise developer contributions? Is it a matter of time before any or all of Spitifre, 8dio, Cinesamples leave the building? And.... will asking everyone to play nicely before we take the toys away really work?

I think not. Personally, I think many devs who have struggled with the rough and tumble here would prefer a more contained, limited interaction with clear and enforced boundaries, and having this as a little walled garden within a bigger sprawling metropolis sounds like an idea worth perusing. But there again, perhaps there's another way of looking at it. Just as we implore members to show a little self restraint at times, this goes too for devs. ProjectSAM tend to only chip in occasionally in their relevant Commercial Announcement threads. Things don't really seem to get heated around them, and that's purely their own decision on how to interact here at VI-C. No reason why other Devs don't just voluntarily follow their approach of course.


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## Arbee (Dec 28, 2013)

Thanks for your very thoughtful responses. A couple of things from my observations that lie at the heart of the matter:

We have a wide variety of people on this forum, some with little experience and some with a lot. And even those with a lot of experience have a diverse level of music education and genre focus. It can be frustrating to those with decades of experience to sit on their hands and resist the temptation to share their views from a perceived position of authority.

Along with the diversity of musical experience, there is also great diversity in commercial/business experience. Sharing views and making suggestions to developers is great, but letting customers literally run your business (i.e. individual customers dictating design and price points) is a sure recipe for failure. Equally, developers who get confused between soliciting feedback on their products and using the forum as a marketing tool, will frequently get emotionally involved and it ends in tears once the honeymoon is over. Just as no-one likes to hear that their music sucks, developers are equally invested in their craft.

There is also generational diversity, which often spawns the "traditional technique v sound design" debate. It also perhaps spawns some of the conflicting attitudes to pricing and piracy.

So, it should come as no surprise that a forum like this presents a few challenges, and under the circumstances I think we do pretty well.

My final observation is that those who succeed most phenomenally and with longevity in the media music business seem to have a very obvious humility and lack of arrogance about them. Perhaps we should all ponder this before writing that next post..... :wink:  

.


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 28, 2013)

This is an excellent, thoughtful and important discussion. I'll be frank, the thread on Kirk Hunter's latest libraries has made feel like leaving this community. I've witnessed more over the top vitriol against Kirk than any other dev here for several years and by many of the same people. Why after several years after they have written off a dev would they continue attacking his work and anyone who posts that they like and use his libraries? It defies logic. I mean, I can understand one post saying, "I don't like them because..." or "I think there's a lot better out there," but it's much worse and more personal than that, because anyone who doesn't share this little thought police group's collective opinion is harassed and berated; the bad actors engage in serial trolling and derailing of threads. And it's not one bad actor, it's a group -- and they travel in packs. Check out the Kirk Hunter related thread, every single positive post is countered by a harshly negative post -- many of which are beyond the pale. 

I see this situation -- this group of toxic individuals and their lack of civility and serial trolling and bullying -- as the single greatest obstacle to the growth of this community. I've been managing online marketing and social media since before the latter term existed and for some of the world's leading brands in their fields, and the only solution I see to this issue is increased moderation. As it is, this group often ruins the user experience here -- it ruins my own experience here and others. It causes me to contemplate leaving and I know others who have left for the same reasons. It's certainly been responsible for me spending A LOT less time at this forum in 2013. I probably come here only 10% as much as I did in 2012 because I can't stand the argumentative people here -- and not just people arguing with me, but people berating each other. I think twice before posting if I will face an attack for stating an independent thought. So I rarely post here anymore unless it involves libraries I'm really into or work with the developer and have strong knowledge and interest in the topic. 

I think there are ton of people here that I and others could learn a lot from -- including some of the very abrasive people -- but the outspoken toxic members can make this forum and posting here such a potentially awful experience, I would rather go elsewhere. Piet posting that if Kirk Hunter is able to continue in business that it will result in a dystopian sample world, referring to Hunter's libraries as "excrement" and anyone who thinks Hunter's libraries are acceptable as being without musical ability. Just what do you have to say to be banned from this forum? 

I've met several musicians/sample users over the years who were once members of this forum who've told me that they left this community or rarely come here because it's "clickish," "mean-spiritied" or "elitist." I don't think that reflects the entire community -- but this little bullying click here has so aggressively and prolifically overtaken so many threads that this is effectively how this forum can seem, especially when you express a view that doesn't conform. I've often see Jay Asher's posts appealing to people's better angels, simply making a case for civility and what happens? Jay gets beat up by an angry mob who accuses a person I've never seen as anything but being a force for peace as being another "bully." If such a peace-loving, often idealistic, group member can't be successful in his attempts to persuade the toxic members to disengage in bad behavior, I don't think anything but moderation will remedy the problem. Look at Facebook. Corporate brands have all begun adopting moderation on Facebook. They tried operating without moderation -- it's out of control and threads lose focus, become constantly off topic and brutally mean-spirited. Plenty of YouTube channels have provided great examples of the dangers of not moderating. I think VI Control can become an incredibly better community by engaging in smart moderation. And, ftr, that doesn't mean immediately banning people -- it means having someone official, with a designated role who can authoritatively say, "We need to reign this in. You're allowed to state your opinion, positive or negative, but you need to stop berating others, so we're going to delete that last post and let you try again." If certain folks cannot overcome their bad behavior and learn to operate in a civil environment, I don't think they're a fit for any healthy community. You can't expect to have a healthy community where so many dysfunctional members are allowed to go unchecked.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 28, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> Nice post, Tone Deaf, some good insights I think.
> 
> IMO though (not specifically addressing you Tone Deaf, but many of the posters here), appeals for everyone to play nice aren't really going to solve the problem. .


Speaking for myself, I don't do it because I have any illusions that it will change anything. When I was 13, I made a decision that when I see things being done to someone that are cruel, unfair or unjust, I would call them out on it. It did not make me popular and I ran the risk of becoming a target myself on many occasions. But I concluded that it was moral way to live. And that continues to this day.

It doesn't make me better than other people in my mind, but it is true to who I am.


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## ProtectedRights (Dec 28, 2013)

@EastWestLurker: you are shaping a picture in my mind, of yourself being some white haired Robin Hood


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 28, 2013)

ProtectedRights @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> @EastWestLurker: you are shaping a picture in my mind, of yourself being some white haired Robin Hood



That is an inaccurate picture. Actually, I look and sometimes behave like Larry David


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## cynirgy (Dec 28, 2013)

After years and years of IRC, AOL forums, smoldering flame wars, criminal behavior and a person who actually threatened another person's kids with harm, I have become convinced that the internet is nothing more than a war zone.

I am all for moderation when it is deemed appropriate by those who volunteer their time to keeping something like this great forum running.


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## Dan Mott (Dec 28, 2013)

dpasdernick @ Sun Dec 29 said:


> Dan Mott @ Sat Dec 28 said:
> 
> 
> > How about just manually ignoring the dicks.
> ...



Hahahaha.

Very smooth 8) o-[][]-o


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## Andrew Aversa (Dec 28, 2013)

I think it's important to recognize the difference between someone intentionally trolling or flame-baiting, and someone who is expressing an opinion - however crassly or passionately. My take on it (as a dev and LONGTIME vi user) is that most of the controversial posts here tend to be borne out of passion and not malice. People passionately love or dislike things. Also as many others have mentioned, we tend to spend a lot of time & money on samples, and due to the nature of these products (unreturnable etc) we can experience great frustration at a less-than-stellar purchase.

I would contrast this with other forums online where people do go out of their way to literally troll - i.e. post something with the SOLE purpose of riling other people up. Or, people that go out of their way to be malicious... not because they passionately care about something, but because they enjoy doing malicious things and making other people "mad". VI is not that kind of place whatsoever.

In short - things really aren't that bad! I would just encourage people who have disagreements with specific posters to take these disagreements to PM. But even those are quite civil in the grand scheme.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 28, 2013)

I don't want or need mommy and daddy to tell me when I'm being naughty or nice. It's the matter of a moment to skip over posts by people I believe to be ill mannered or unknowledgeable. I give exactly the amount of respect I receive, and I am not afraid to post my opinion regardless of the groupthink of the moment. I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone WOULD be.

This place was at least partially founded as a reaction to NS, which is exactly the kind of place this will become if your suggestions are put in place. Who is to do all this determining of off point, on point, pleasant enough, too unpleasant?? Whose sensibility should rule? Should developers, whose marketing dollars partially support this forum have a say? How much of a say?

I really think people who find this place so upsetting should just leave- or accept the fact that lightly led democracies can be messy. Quashing people's expressions is a very slippery slope.

All that said, the ignore button would probably make sense if it wasn't a nightmare to program. It definitely improved things for me on AOL.


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## rJames (Dec 28, 2013)

zircon_st @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> I think it's important to recognize the difference between someone intentionally trolling or flame-baiting, and someone who is expressing an opinion - however crassly or passionately. My take on it (as a dev and LONGTIME vi user) is that most of the controversial posts here tend to be borne out of passion and not malice. People passionately love or dislike things. Also as many others have mentioned, we tend to spend a lot of time & money on samples, and due to the nature of these products (unreturnable etc) we can experience great frustration at a less-than-stellar purchase.
> 
> I would contrast this with other forums online where people do go out of their way to literally troll - i.e. post something with the SOLE purpose of riling other people up. Or, people that go out of their way to be malicious... not because they passionately care about something, but because they enjoy doing malicious things and making other people "mad". VI is not that kind of place whatsoever.
> 
> In short - things really aren't that bad! I would just encourage people who have disagreements with specific posters to take these disagreements to PM. But even those are quite civil in the grand scheme.



+1


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 28, 2013)

I think there is a huge disparity between how a dev who is consistently having any threads or posts about him or his sample libraries preyed upon and trolled (quite literally, taken from the textbook definition of an Internet troll: someone who posts inflammatory remarks or deliberately provokes readers into emotional responses -- in this case by making attacks on anyone who posts something positive about a developer). I would think any dev here who pays to be here (in which case, receives a certain level of moderation those who do not pay do not receive) is unlikely to understand how disruptive these practices are. I know a number of devs here and I can say that privately, there has been conversations I've had about some of these practices and some are empathetic and concerned about current forum issues. 

@NYC Composer I absolutely understand your concern about the balance between the freedom to express views candidly and controls of developers/advertisers, but I can tell you that it's already at work in the forum. I know devs that pay and those that don't. Those who don't pay can get attacked without any moderation. The only posts that should be outright deleted are those where the attacks are beyond the pale -- like one's where Piet attacks a person's "soul" or uses "excrement" metaphors on a person's work or a person or where there is repeated harassment or berating of forum members. I am not advocated censoring even hypercritical posts. I've led social media at major brands and I've never been a censorship advocate, but moderation is a standard practice in the world of social media. It's seen as a requirement to keep threads on track. Other music related forums, such as KVR have them and I find KVR is a pretty good practice to cite in this regard.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 28, 2013)

If someone runs over my dog maliciously or because he is upset and does not drive well as a result, my dog is just as dead.

Going from too much moderation to too little is not an improvement, just a different kind of bad.

Oh and btw, from the Forum's listed rules:

_7. When posting, please maintain a respectful tone towards all members of this forum. If you cannot agree to disagree respectfully on a subject, please refrain from posting. 
_

OK, I'm done.


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## Andrew Aversa (Dec 28, 2013)

I have no problem at all (as a dev or user) with more moderation, as I don't think this is a particularly over-moderated forum. I mod a few other forums of comparable size myself. 

My message was simply a more charitable view of the community here, relative to most any other forum I've visited


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## NYC Composer (Dec 28, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Dec 29 said:


> If someone runs over my dog maliciously or because he is upset and does not drive well as a result, my dog is just as dead.
> 
> Going from too much moderation to too little is not an improvement, just a different kind of bad.
> 
> ...



Dude- you are NEVER done.


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 29, 2013)

Once again I feel the need to raised my nuanced flag (I have a surprisingly detailed collection of flags). What causes offence is very subjective. Because someone proclaims that they live by their own moral code and thus sleep well at night IN NO WAY means that their posts are necessarily inoffensive. In my experience, such people are still capable of writing highly inflammatory or offensive stuff.

(By contrast, I of course have exercised impeccable judgement in every post I've ever made here....)

((that was an attempt at self-deprecating irony))

I was one of the many many banned at Northern Sounds, a place that became a parody of what a forum should be. I have every interest in this place staying away from that. Several people have expressed the view that the forum should nevertheless have generally increased moderation. I made a counter-suggestion that this should just apply to Commercial Annoucements - I'd love to hear some others view on this, as I think it has some merits (and I specifically made the point that it should sidestep the Northern Sounds effect) which haven't really been discussed yet.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 29, 2013)

Guy, I removed the passive from passive aggressive years ago.

And now- you've offended me with your inoffensive post.*

Sincerely, Someone






*Just KIDDING!! :wink:


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 29, 2013)

Ha!


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## eric aron (Dec 29, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> Nice post, Tone Deaf, some good insights I think.
> 
> IMO though (not specifically addressing you Tone Deaf, but many of the posters here), appeals for everyone to play nice aren't really going to solve the problem. Such appeals have been made before and will continue no doubt. I don't think it really has a handle on the dynamic at work here. The more I think about it, separating posters into dicks and non-dicks is - shock - perhaps just a little too simplistic to cover the range - and rage - we see here at VI-C. Look at some of the posts of the past 24 hours - I seemed to read a world of rage when I logged on this morning. Is it really that a few people are ignorant dicks causing trouble wherever they go and the rest are decent, or is it more nuanced than that?
> 
> ...





I fully agree, and as my English level can't allow to express so finely my feelings and thoughts, I underlined the main point in the quote. 
This forum is an individual expression place, open to all. So there are different levels intersecting, in musical gift, craft, experience, and psychology. So it includes ego firegames, which is human. In such cases, it's up to everyone's wisdom to fuel more the fire or ignoring it. As for me, being passionate and demanding musician, I can't stay behind a conventional shapeless flattering tone. Piet posts are for me among the most valuable in this forum, and I forgive his sometimes exacerbated tone, being myself the same kind of soul, with the same quest. Sometimes a good blow in the blandness is necessary.


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## Resoded (Dec 29, 2013)

Just my 5 cents, I'm just a tadpole in this pond, insert other comments of that nature here etc etc etc. Here's what I think:

1. People here generally don't know each other.

2. People don't see each other in person, which sadly seems to lead to less consideration and respect.

3. The very nature of written text is surprisingly effective in being provocative and personal to whoever reads it.

4. People here are quite different. Different ages. Different backgrounds. Different countries and cultures. Different training. Works with different things, classical music, movies, orchestration or bands. Some working with music full time, others having music as a hobby. Some have very strict ideas concerning how music should be made, others are more open. Different ideas on elitism. Oh, and very different ideas on what a good sample library is. Etc, you get the picture. This is not necessarily a problem, but combined with 1, 2 and 3, that's when we get these Great Debates of VI-C. Debates that would be over and forgiven in 15-30 minutes in person turn into these massive 7+ days Trials of Silliness, were people 
venture to the top of the highest tree and resolve to projectiles of fecal matter and clever insults, after that it's all a matter of attrition and morale.

5. This forum, compared to other forums I've been a member of, is distant. People don't laugh and joke around as much. Not sure why. Or maybe it's just me not understanding the humor.

6. And maybe my personal favorite, most of the times any obvious confrontations are being avoided by writing in generalities, but people still feel as they are under attack. Does writing generally make things more civil? As Exhibit A I'd like to point to the oh so frequent reoccurring theme "Modern Composers", or Exhibit B the vi-c classic theme "Trailer Music" or "Todays Music", both which are bound to step on a few toes since members here write those things. Let me be clear though that I'm not saying that people should hold back, I'm just saying that people keep stepping on each others toes, and then these heated debates happen. (And yes, it's all ironic because I write in generalities right now.)

7. Concerning library and developer talk, part of it I think is due to shaky customer/business relations, were people have been burned by businesses releasing unfinished things or cutting corners. And of course the general customer/business relations when customers want to push developers as much as possible to getting what they want.

8. o=?


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## muk (Dec 29, 2013)

+1 on having more moderation on just the Commercial Announcements subforum. Time and again these threads are derailed by either technical questions (for example a discussion about SSDs on the Berlin Strings thread), or flaming wars for or against a library. I'd like to have a subforum with just the relevant information about a library. The deeper discussion can easily be done in the Sample Talks.

Have to disagree with Guy's opinion over Piet's way of conducting here.



Guy Rowland @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> and putting things in a temperate manner would not convey his depth of feeling. If that's correct (might not be) I think it's OTT, but I respect his right to say what he says and how he says it.



To me such behaviour is inacceptable and should be moderated regardless of the person/experience/merits of the user. Don't you think a forum member who is here for just one month who conducts thus would be warned and then banned? If Piet can't moderate his tone down I'd rather not have him post at all. At times he's just plain insulting, and his normative rants about what everybody has to dislike are unnecessary and NOT IN THE LEAST HELPFUL. I respect his right to say what he wants, but in my opinion nobody has no right to say it the way he does. Don't get me wrong, it doesn't have to be all nice and sweet. Nothing wrong with expressing a strong believe/opinion. I do not one bit dissent from that. But you can do even that in a polite way, without rudely insulting developers, and bashing half of the forum members here.



Guy Rowland @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> the crimes against music as perceived by him are more important to him than social graces



If that's the case (and sure Piet gave some clues towards that direction) that's plain silly and presumptuos, in my opinion.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 29, 2013)

muk @ Sun Dec 29 said:


> +1 on having more moderation on just the Commercial Announcements subforum. Time and again these threads are derailed by either technical questions (for example a discussion about SSDs on the Berlin Strings thread), or flaming wars for or against a library. I'd like to have a subforum with just the relevant information about a library. The deeper discussion can easily be done in the Sample Talks.
> 
> .



Mr. Muk- as a participant in the derailment of the Berlin thread (btw, it's ongoing if you'd like to check in) I'd like to personally apologize for inconveniencing you. As I recall however, even before you posted your polite request to get back on topic, another thread had been created and no other post was made that should have further disturbed your concentration.

Due to my advanced age, I can tend to digress. If you feel this is the case any time in the future, do let me know, by PM or within the thread, and I'll try to rein it in. Peace be 
unto you, sir.


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## muk (Dec 29, 2013)

Well, no need to get politely nasty, is there?  I myself tend to derail threads every now and then. That's exactly why I'd like to have more moderation on just that subforum.


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## re-peat (Dec 29, 2013)

I do miss V.I. the way it was up until 3 or 4 years ago. Today, this forum is in the soup, I believe. Ever more stuck in the mind-numbing quicksand of playing safe, holding hands and humming “Kumbaya”. I hate that, I truly do. It’s uninspiring, it causes stagnation, and it only confirms mediocrity and bland conformity. It awards tiresome sameness, rather than celebrate inspiring individuality.

What was once a meeting place for strong-minded, colourful and commited musicians, a vibrant platform for stimulating exchange and scrutiny, occasionaly spiced with sometimes violent clashes of opinions and/or ego’s (all perfectly normal and even commendable among creative people, I am disposed to believe) is now fast degenerating into a drab gathering of spineless anonymities, either too weak to have a personality, too afraid to express it, or willing to instantly adapt it depending on what the most popular view of the day seems to be on any given topic.

Truly interesting discussions are increasingly rare ― to the newer members: we’ve had some unforgettably great ones over the years, still very much worth reading ― and instead we seem to be getting more and more of these pages-long whining threads on how we should and shouldn’t behave, on how developers should and shouldn’t go about their business, as well as endless re-visitations of non-issues which any individual who possesses even a bit of self-respect, initiative and creativity would be only too happy and excited to sort out on his/her own. (The reason I haven’t been quite able to show my positive and helpful side more frequently this past year, is because I simply don’t feel triggered to do so by the sort of questions which keep popping up lately. I mean, the lazyness, the complacency, the astounding lack of commitment, creativity and curiosity, the blatant desire for easy and instant satisfaction and the Class A idiocy which often pervades all these questions … it really is getting a bit depressing at times.) 

-----

Musicians helping musicians is not the same as quantity surveyors helping quantity surveyors. Musicians helping musicians sometimes means ― not always of course, but sometimes ― conflict, the shedding of tears, the implosion of ego’s, the sharpening of pens, the licking of wounds. It has to, otherwise it is meaningless and unhealthy.
If I say KH’s strings are crap, then someone else needs to say with equal vigour and conviction that these strings are beautiful specimen of the art of sampling, and then, preferably, argument his/her case with useful and convincing material. That’s what I want. I don’t need anybody to tell me that I’m rude and tactless, because I know I am. But that’s my way of hoping to switch on the engine of illuminating conflict. The sort of conflict that, in the long run, is truly helpful to anyone who’s interested in the subject at hand. (I agree I tend to go seriously overboard at times with my attempts at triggering illuminating conflict, causing plenty of indignation in the process, but that seems to be who I am. And in the case of KH, my poorly-chosen language was, again, very much the result of the awfulness of the product under review.) But I want people who read V.I.-threads on Kirk Hunter to end up being better informed than people who read KH-threads somewhere else. (Or on any other subject, for that matter) And, forgive me my presumptuous confidence, but I think they are now. There’s no place on the entire web at the moment, where you can get better informed on the qualities (or lack thereof) of KH’s catalogue than you can here at V.I.
(I would like to have a similar thread on Cholakis’ IR’s for LASS, by the way. I really don’t like those and the results sound positively dreadful to my ears. But unfortunately, Mr. Alexander seems to wield enough power in V.I.’s backrooms to have threads closed which don’t proceed to his liking or might damage his business interests. Fair play, he calls it. Vulgar opportunism, is what I call it.)

----

Like everybody else, I obviously agree with the fact that there is a whole lot to be said for civil conduct, playing nice, respectful interchange and all that, but when these words become synonymous, as they increasingly do here on V.I., of pseudo-civil, hypocritical and often totally pointless chats where there’s little or no room for feisty disagreement, passion and conviction, it really doesn’t bode well for the future, in my humble opinion.

If the Good Manners Brigade has its way, before long, even the merest suggestion of dissent or criticism, no matter how well or how poorly formulated, will be deemed inappropriate and unacceptable, anyone who isn’t trained in goose-stepping along with everybody else will be targeted … until all the fiery passion, singular insight and inspiring, scintilllating clashes of opinion ― the very things on which V.I.’s uniqueness and irresistible appeal was always built, as far as I’m concerned ― will be sucked out of this forum’s threads, leaving nothing but lame, well-behaved, polite but dreary, completely forgettable and insipid conversations which are of no use to anyone, other than to allow the Good Manners Brigade to congratulate themselves that they have everything well in hand.

We’re not quite there yet, thankfully, but we seem to be getting closer with gathering speed, as this very thread indicates once again.
(And if it were up to the likes of Jay, that speed might even be cranked up a few notches.)

New forum rules are being considered, new report- or ignore-buttons might be implemented, moderators will feel forced to start moderating where before they wisely left things run their adventurous course, dumb democracy will neutralize anything that is considered potentially dangerous (and thus potentially interesting) and, finally, everybody will slowly go to sleep. At which point V.I. will have become a ghost town, where Gunther still serves beer to his many friends, I suppose.

Utterly dull and boring. The last thing music, and music-related discussions, should be.

_


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 29, 2013)

Here we go 

Piet - a specific question. Back in the good ol' days of VI-C, what was the developer presence like, compared to now?


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## RasmusFors (Dec 29, 2013)

The devolpers who hang around here are on the big perks with ViC. I don't think most people realise what a big advantage that put us as consumers in. There aren't that many places where you can openly discuss and critique products together with both fellow users and devolpers. 
I'm not for moderation, but a bit more of moderation in the comercial announcements board would benefit everyone. Critique like "Sounds bad, wont buy" neither helps the consumers nor the devolpers. Critique like "the viola legato is a bit choppy in higher registers" helps the devolper (so they know what to patch), and also the buyer (who get a good sense of percs and cons with the library). Unnecessary critique like the first example could be deleted, while the later stays. This way it also becomes easier for the devs to answer and adress criticism.

But that's just my two cents. There are alot of cool people here who are helpfull and fair. We shouldn't forgett the positives!


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## rayinstirling (Dec 29, 2013)

I loved it then when following my purchase of VSE I presented a cue devoid of the expression possible if reading the manual first and tweaking the appropriate controllers.
It was destroyed by the experienced members of the time including Piet.
How or where would I get better feedback. I didn't join this forum for warm fuzzies.
Recently, all I read is, some knight in shining armour wishing to defend the honour of someone else which then escalates into a dozen knights diving in for moral? support.
It's laughable nonsense. Many of the subjects presented for discussion recently have been borne of total laziness in not doing some personal research.
An example: how does this library compare to that library?
Real answer: it doesn't, it's different, it uses different samples, it uses different controls and amounts of control. On and on.
Only useful answer: it is or isn't worth buying based on what IT will do for YOU.

To finish, for encouragement to be useful it can not always be positive there must also be warts.


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## re-peat (Dec 29, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Sun Dec 29 said:


> Back in the good ol' days of VI-C, what was the developer presence like, compared to now?


I don’t really remember, I’m afraid. About the same, I think. Developers were never very high on my list of reasons to visit V.I. anyway, if they figured at all, that is. And their presence or absence certainly never made or ruined the V.I. experience for me.
Me, I prefer to talk to non-developers, really. Developers tend to be fragile things, don’t they? Very sensitive creatures, in whose presence one often has to tread with extreme caution, wearing the gloves of gentleness and the sandals of diplomacy. Cause they're prone to burst at even the merest injudicious contact. So, best left alone, I feel, to let them do what they do best. 
But I love them. Well, some of them. They've changed my life.

_


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## rJames (Dec 29, 2013)

Back in the good old days the developers of today were the members of this forum. If I've done my math right, most of the premier developers (orchestral VIs) of today participated in the collaborative orchestral sampling project that was VI orchestra.

Those vehement discussions about how the library should be sampled, edited and programmed led to the instruments whose merits we are debating today.

These developers owe us nothing but are wise to stick around and take critique while discussing their products.

Also dear VIers, please notice that discussions like the KH discussion only begin to boil when the right to voice one's opinion is challenged.

When we specifically call out a particular member's opinion, we are asking for a rebuttal...aren't we?


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## Arbee (Dec 29, 2013)

To be crystal clear, while I would support tighter moderation on the Commercial Announcements sub-forum (selfishly, I like to use that sub-forum to know what has been released and form my own views before being subjected to group think or more subtle sales and marketing tactics), I would not want to see any tighter moderation on the Sample Talk (or any other) sub-forum. 

I have no issue at all with brutally honest opinion, it has certainly served me well as an "acceleration agent" for my own improvement over the years. I will also add that I've never seen Piet take a thread off topic (refer the subject line to this thread) - quite the opposite. Derailment frequently starts, in my view, after his first post has said out loud what many have been thinking and incisively struck a truth nerve. As long as a post is focused on a product/service and not on character assassination I'm perfectly OK with it, however expressed. I have my own "ignore" button to filter out what I don't think adds any value, it's just that I totally lose interest in those multi-page posts that have dissolved tediously into pontification.

.


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 29, 2013)

> (I would like to have a similar thread on Cholakis’ IR’s for LASS, by the way. I really don’t like those and the results sound positively dreadful to my ears. But unfortunately, Mr. Alexander seems to wield enough power in V.I.’s backrooms to have threads closed which don’t proceed to his liking or might damage his business interests. Fair play, he calls it. Vulgar opportunism, is what I call it.)



Talk about post derailment!

Well, wail away! My reason for _requesting_ that the thread be _temporarily_ locked was because, in fairness, an ice storm in Toronto took out Ernest's power for several days. Consequently, any post or challenge posed to him, he couldn't answer. Additionally, the ice storm hit before he was finished posting his web page which has lots of demos on it.

So in fairness, I asked that the thread be locked until power was restored and Ernest could respond. 

_That's fair, isn't it?_

When power was restored, I wrote the mod, thanked him, and pointed out that it was OK to unlock it. I don't know why it's still locked, but certainly not because of any profit motive on my part. 

There's a thread now going in Commercial, and some of the questions posed in the original thread have been re-posted. 

Regarding the new LASS TI's, if you don't like it, well, you don't like it! As Flip Wilson used to say, "Sorry 'bout that!" But everyone hears differently.

But if you don't like it, that's _[you_. And your opinion, which is what it is, is not a pronouncement from Asgard, Mt. Olympus, nor Valhalla. It is just _an_ opinion. 

All of us who read what you wrote in that thread got it. _You_ don't like it! 

Happy New Year! o[])


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 29, 2013)

re-peat @ Sun Dec 29 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Sun Dec 29 said:
> 
> 
> > Back in the good ol' days of VI-C, what was the developer presence like, compared to now?
> ...



Yes, many do seem to be fragile things. And I do also love many of them and are immensely grateful for their hard work generally and input here. rJames' comments are interesting... I do think there has been a shift here over the years, and most of what creates the noise here is directly or indirectly to do with developer relations.

Well, I'm still keen on a revamped Commercial Announcements (The Developer Zone or something), which is more tightly moderated than the rest of the forum. And I totally agree, Arbee, the rest of the forum should stay as is, and it might encourage more open debate if the fear of upsetting developers in the wider forum can be taken down a notch.


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## voxhumana (Dec 29, 2013)

"But that’s my way of hoping to switch on the engine of illuminating conflict."

See also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:The_Truth


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 29, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Sun Dec 29 said:


> Here we go
> 
> Piet - a specific question. Back in the good ol' days of VI-C, what was the developer presence like, compared to now?



I'm not Piet, I'm Peter, but I'm answering anyway. Far more involved than now.


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## Arbee (Dec 29, 2013)

voxhumana @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> "But that’s my way of hoping to switch on the engine of illuminating conflict."
> 
> See also:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:The_Truth


I like it 8) 


.


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## pinki (Dec 29, 2013)

There is already moderation..I had a post deleted last month for insulting Ed. Fair enough.

Sounds-on-Line East West forum is my idea of hell.

But neither can I bare "I have a right to express myself" thinking, with no empathy. (I feel the same way about music recitals.)


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## re-peat (Dec 29, 2013)

Peter Alexander @ Sun Dec 29 said:


> > (...) _That's fair, isn't it?_(...)


No, it wasn’t, Peter. Not fair at all. Quite the contrary, in fact. I am sorry.

*First of all*, it wasn’t your thread to begin with. *Secondly*, the product was already on sale _before_ the storm hit Canada, so that most unfortunate situation was entirely circumstantial and irrelevant. (Quite cynical actually, to use it as an excuse for your manoeuvre.) *Thirdly*, you as a dealer should be perfectly capable to answer any questions or challenges regarding a product you’re selling. *Fourthly*, you know just as well as I do that it isn’t good form to post negative criticism in the Commercial Forum. Especially these days. So it seems to me I’m all out of options to comment on the product. (Apart from starting yet another thread of course, but that seems a bit silly to me. Besides, it's not that interesting a product anyway.) *And finally*: of course my opinion is my opinon. But unless I’m mistaken, this is a forum and a forum, correct me if I’m wrong, is built upon the exchange of opinions, so I really fail to see what is wrong with me expressing an opinion. And I also never suggested that my opinion is anything more than what it is: just another opinion. Which is also why it counts just as much as any other, no more no less. Whether you like it or not.

_


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 29, 2013)

re-peat @ Sun Dec 29 said:


> Peter Alexander @ Sun Dec 29 said:
> 
> 
> > > (...) _That's fair, isn't it?_(...)
> ...



It doesn't have to be my thread to recognize the need for fairness to another. 

If people write me directly, I give them direct answers. In a thread on a new product announcement, it's up to the dev to respond. In this case where I was on the beta team, I've given some insights. Beyond that, it's up to the dev to respond because it's their product and they designed it. 

The item was on my web site announced to my list only and mentioned on my FB page. I also took down the product listing from my own site until Ernest was back on line. 

Either start another thread or write Fred or some other mod and ask them to unlock the existing one. I already did that but it hasn't been yet. So ask another mod to do it.


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## re-peat (Dec 29, 2013)

Peter Alexander @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> It doesn't have to be my thread to recognize the need for fairness to another.


I don’t want to dwell on this for too long, but: _fairness had nothing to do with it_. Fairness was never in danger in that thread. Be serious. The only thing that was in danger were your sales numbers. Because of what I wrote. 
Look, nobody minds that you have your business at heart, first and foremost. But please don’t dress your commercial motives up as a desire for fairness. It’s embarrassing.



Peter Alexander @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> In a thread on a new product announcement, (...)


See, that’s precisely it: it WASN’T a new product announcement thread, it was just an ordinary Sample Talk thread, started by a fellow member (Guy, to be precise). In all my 10 years here at V.I., I have *never* known a thread to be closed upon request from a dealer/developer because his product gets a negative comment in a non-commercial thread. This was a first. And a pretty ugly one it was too.
Just imagine: what if every dealer/developer around here is granted the power to have threads closed in the Sample Talk forum only because his product is getting criticized? That wouldn't leave much, would it? Still sounds fair to you?



Peter Alexander @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> (...) it's up to the dev to respond. (...) Beyond that, it's up to the dev to respond because it's their product and they designed it.


There was only one single and very straightforward question asked in that entire thread: _are the IR’s compatible with Altiverb 6 ?_ Now excuse me, but if you, as a dealer of said product, can’t even answer that most basic and simple of questions, then that doesn’t speak too well for your commitment, know-how and qualifications, does it?

Just my opinion, of course.

_


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 29, 2013)

It wasn't tested with Altiverb 6. After the customer asked, it was tested, and an answer was sent to them AND added to the FAQ.

>8o


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## HardyP (Dec 29, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ 2013-12-29 said:


> I made a counter-suggestion that this should just apply to Commercial Annoucements - I'd love to hear some others view on this, as I think it has some merits


I like that. The Commercial Announcements are getting too big sometimes, and waaaay OT… maybe just allow to post the original dev in these sub-forum?
On the other hand, it´s interesting to see, where a new release fits and compares to the market e.g., see first adopters experiences/opinions, links to user demos,…
But since I realized, that a supporter of someones products recommending it to me is a marketing specialist and often counseling devs with their launches, I am getting a bit more wary anyhow.


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## rJames (Dec 29, 2013)

Hold on. Commercial announcements cannot become a one-sided advertisement for a new product. 

VI-Control has a place for advertisements. Check with Frederick when you want to buy ad space.

If you don't want discussion of your product, buy ad space, don't post in Commercial Announcements.

Please don't lock Commercial Announcements out of discussion by forum members. Remember the philosophy of this forum, "composers protecting composers from bad products," or something like that.

I've spent 10 years deciding who's opinion I trust and who's I don't. Like I say, everyone deserves the right to comment, if you want to challenge them, be ready for their response.


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 29, 2013)

Last time I looked, you pay to advertise in the Commercial section. You can buy either a banner ad and place a product there, or skip the banner ad, and just pay to post in Commercial.

Additionally, it is clearly posted in the Sample section that posting group buys has to be cleared with Fred first and those announcements belong in the commercial section.

See: http://www.vi-control.net/vicrate2.html


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## NYC Composer (Dec 29, 2013)

Piet- you are a one man advertisement for an ignore button. All your spirited defenses of yourself as the standard bearer for Truth and the Right Stuff are obviated by a simple fact- you constantly bring a machine gun to a knife fight. I am consistently respectful of your opinions and musicianship and horrified by your malevolent and highly personalized verbal attacks. There really are no justifications for this stuff.

You state here that you have no interest in changing your manner of expression, although at various times you've indicated something different to me. As a thoughtful person with some small modicum of talent myself, I've sought your counsel and shared thoughts with you now and then, thinking that eventually, you'd just.....stop... with the personal and overly vehement attacks. That was obviously both hopeful and presumptuous on my part. Lacking an ignore button, I bid a simple adieu to you.


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## TheUnfinished (Dec 30, 2013)

I think the ownership of threads on a public forum is a bit of a misnomer for me. They are a fluid thing that can change direction a number of time based on what interests the forum users... it's a kind of democracy I suppose. And whilst no-one would ever suggest democracy is perfect, artificially steering them might be worse.

As much as Piet's (and others) tone is not to everyone's liking, I can always see the thrust of his argument at least. Hell, he's even consistent. And he doesn't resort to a streal of placating emoticons like a twelve year old. It's not how I would conduct myself and I do think it's inflammatory.

I do think there's an argument, however, that if you are that passionate and you want to be clear in your message and have people understand and listen to it, you can't complain too much if people start to ignore you if you do not temper your message to the audience you're addressing.

And there, in a nutshell, is the problem with any form of moderation/censorship. What offends one person might not offend another, and where you draw lines is incredibly subjective.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 30, 2013)

TheUnfinished @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> I think the ownership of threads on a public forum is a bit of a misnomer for me. They are a fluid thing that can change direction a number of time based on what interests the forum users... it's a kind of democracy I suppose. And whilst no-one would ever suggest democracy is perfect, artificially steering them might be worse.
> 
> As much as Piet's (and others) tone is not to everyone's liking, I can always see the thrust of his argument at least. Hell, he's even consistent. And he doesn't resort to a streal of placating emoticons like a twelve year old. It's not how I would conduct myself and I do think it's inflammatory.
> 
> ...



Exactly. Each person, as an adult, can choose who they wish to deal with and ignore those they don't want to deal with. No censorship necessary, no banning necessary. Simple.


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## germancomponist (Dec 30, 2013)

Resoded @ Sun Dec 29 said:


> 5. This forum, compared to other forums I've been a member of, is distant. People don't laugh and joke around as much. Not sure why. Or maybe it's just me not understanding the humor.





re-peat @ Sun Dec 29 said:


> At which point V.I. will have become a ghost town, where Gunther still serves beer to his many friends, I suppose.


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## Stephen Rees (Dec 30, 2013)

TheUnfinished @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> I think the ownership of threads on a public forum is a bit of a misnomer for me. They are a fluid thing that can change direction a number of time based on what interests the forum users... it's a kind of democracy I suppose. And whilst no-one would ever suggest democracy is perfect, artificially steering them might be worse.



I very much agree with you. Sometimes thread 'derailments' contain considerable amounts of information that are of great interest and use.

As for freedom of expression, I would like to think that everyone is free to express themselves how they choose providing they remain within the forum rules. It is the forum rules that define the boundaries, not one member or group of members' indignation about the 'tone' or 'manner of expression' of someone else's posting style.


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## kclements (Dec 30, 2013)

Stephen Rees @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> TheUnfinished @ Mon Dec 30 said:
> 
> 
> > I think the ownership of threads on a public forum is a bit of a misnomer for me. They are a fluid thing that can change direction a number of time based on what interests the forum users... it's a kind of democracy I suppose. And whilst no-one would ever suggest democracy is perfect, artificially steering them might be worse.
> ...



Agreed.

Other forums have a "foe" as well as friend setting. Maybe that could be implemented here? It's a simple way to mark someone as a "foe" and their posts won't show up in your feed. I have done this on other boards, and it seems to work well.

Cheers
kc


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 30, 2013)

rJames @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> Hold on. Commercial announcements cannot become a one-sided advertisement for a new product.



That's certainly not what I'm suggesting. But I see - with rather terrific irony - that my point keeps getting derailed, which with double irony was itself derailing somebody else's (which, since it is in Sample Talk, would be fine under my idea - yay).

Is it worth starting a poll on this specific point? If so, where? For the avoidance of doubt, here's my proposal:

Commercial Announcements ONLY to become more strictly moderated. Contributions welcome from all, but should be factual / genuine questions related specifically to the product being promoted. All wider discussions and opinions should take place elsewhere within VI-C, with the same light touch moderation as currently. Developers would have the option of ONLY frequenting the Commercial Announcements thread (a relative safe haven), or taking part in the wider community discussions which are more likely to be a rougher ride. The dual aim is to keep developers at VI-C who have been public regarding their dislike of the community, while simultaneously allowing freedom of discussion elsewhere at VI-C without having to tiptoe around developer sensitivities.


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## Daryl (Dec 30, 2013)

Stephen Rees @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> As for freedom of expression, I would like to think that everyone is free to express themselves how they choose providing they remain within the forum rules. It is the forum rules that define the boundaries, not one member or group of members' indignation about the 'tone' or 'manner of expression' of someone else's posting style.


Agreed, but I see an inherent problem. No matter how polite one is, there will always be a reaction if you think that something is bad, when another user thinks it is good. The only thing one can do is not to post in the first place, or if the boot is on the other foot, not to reply.

However, by not posting in the first place, or not replying, there is no longer free speech. Only self censorship.

I really don't think that there is an answer, and I as I'm now off topic, it shows how easily things can get derailed. :wink: 

D


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## Stephen Rees (Dec 30, 2013)

Daryl @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> Stephen Rees @ Mon Dec 30 said:
> 
> 
> > As for freedom of expression, I would like to think that everyone is free to express themselves how they choose providing they remain within the forum rules. It is the forum rules that define the boundaries, not one member or group of members' indignation about the 'tone' or 'manner of expression' of someone else's posting style.
> ...



Agreed. Personally I have no problem of people having differing views. We all have different experiences and we all hear and use products in different ways, so something that is a problem for one person may not be an issue at all for another.

The same is true of posting etiquette. Some people express themselves in ways I never would, but that doesn't make my way the right way and their way the wrong way. It is just we express ourselves differently because of our different personalities and experiences.


----------



## germancomponist (Dec 30, 2013)

Stephen Rees @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> Daryl @ Mon Dec 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Stephen Rees @ Mon Dec 30 said:
> ...



There is nothing wrong with saying you don't like the way a library sounds, even that you hate the way it sounds. But when you start bashing a company, calling it "excrement" and saying that the developer lacks the requisite skills e.t.c., that is crossing a line that we should not tolerate. 

I also had sometimes a bad day and wrote some things what I better did not. I'll take care of me, that something like this will not happen again to me.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 30, 2013)

Stephen Rees @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> Daryl @ Mon Dec 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Stephen Rees @ Mon Dec 30 said:
> ...



....none of which belies the fact that there are outliers who radicalize the notion of freedom of expression in a way similar to the most well known example, shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater.


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## rJames (Dec 30, 2013)

This is sort of a test... but if the forum does not allow you to type shit, then he may have been forced to use another word.

Somehow excrement sounds worse but is really just part of a well used colloquialism. (sp?)

Part of me thinks that, yes, a moderator should be allowed to delete some postings but then we are stuck with drawing a line. And drawing lines just leads to more conflict and forum bashing. 

I like the status quo. And I just ignore posts I don't like.


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 30, 2013)

Someone brought up the Kirk Hunter thread as an example of things coming to a boil when the right to voice an opinion is challenged. And I'm guessing that is the thread that inspired this one, and that thread should serve as a case study, for a number of reasons. But the right to voice an opinion was challenged, but not in the way the poster in this thread was attempting to describe. There were two individuals, but as Piet has already been brought up, I'd like to stick with that. I confronted Piet and I wanted to share some insights as to why, because there's clearly some misunderstanding of it and why, I believe, it is necessary to address the type of behavior he was engaging in. FTR, I would NEVER advocate moderation/censorship of negative opinions -- NOR censorship of positive opinions, which was one of the two key reasons for my initial response to what I seem to recall was Piet's third post (and his first post I addressed). I believe for any forum to thrive, it must maintain an inviting/welcoming atmosphere where things are open and there is respect for diverse views. I also, agree with concerns expressed here that advertisers, in this case developers, could wield too much power and want to squash negative opinions, however, I believe that scenario is more likely if uncivil behavior, like the kind encountered in the thread that is the topic of conversation, is not addressed. Otherwise, some advertisers are going to try to re-write the rules and, undoubtedly (from experience), some will push it, imo, too far. 

If you look back at the Kirk Hunter Studios Spotlight Strings thread (in the non-commercial section), you will note that I challenged two posters (so did Jay Asher, but I cannot speak for him; but I never witnessed him challenging the right to an opinion, although he was more focused on politeness than I was). I believe that thread is a superb case study to use for this thread, and I would guess, it was the inspiration for it. My issue with Piet's postings was not the critiquing of a library, it was the wholesale attempts to discredit a developer and attacks on all other posters who stated favorable opinions as not having ears or talent. It was the personal attack portion of his posts that were the problem. At least seven other posters expressed the same dislike of the current Spotlight Strings audio demos (none of them actually demoed the trial of the library, I believe) as Piet. And frankly, if someone wrote something crude like, "I think those demos suck" I wouldn't bother addressing it; it's no big deal in my book, and not worthy of moderation, even a little. In fact, there were several other forum members who posted negative criticisms of Spotlight Strings or even of all of KHS portfolio of libraries that did not contain insults to others. None of those were worthy of moderation imo and none, as far as I understand it, violate VI Control rules of forum members to show respect to others when posting. 

Forum member muk, posted a negative criticism of Spotlight Strings, that he didn't like what he heard, and he was a model and valuable participant of the thread. He didn't state anything positive about the library, from what I recall. However, he not only didn't insult anyone when sharing his opinions, he also directly addressed Piet stating, "I ask you yet again to please state your opinion without being insulting."Gusfmm, techeverlasting, rayinstirling and others posted negative criticisms of Spotlight Strings and no one took issue with their posts, nor should they. Any forum with merit should have balanced views and negative criticism is an important part of these conversations. Consistent with VI Control's own forum policy, the behavior that shouldn't be accepted is when forum members fail to respect other forum members and/or developers and that was exactly my issue with Piet's and one other person's posts in the thread. It was the posts that insulted a developer's skills and abilities, calling everything he has ever produced as "excrement," etc. and attacked other posters who thought these libraries were good claiming they had inferior abilities and didn't possess good ears. That's the issue. Such posts create an intimidating atmosphere for most people. 

In fact, this morning, a VI Control member (not a developer) I'm connected to on Facebook and I were chatting and he brought up to me that he didn't want to post in the Kirk Hunter Studios because he preferred not to be berated for stating his opinions. And while I realize that there are some very vocal, much more assertive and outspoken members of this community, I'm confident that there are many more members which don't share their assertiveness and don't desire conflict when they come here to talk about sample libraries, composition, orchestration or other music-related topics. More than twenty years managing and leading digital marketing, overseeing social media and research studies, including managing forums, has shown me that most adults (not kids), do not seek conflict when they come to such forums and that is exactly what the behavior I called out presents. It is a deterrent to civil dialogue and denies a richer dialogue here, as the loudest, most obnoxious, and most bullying voices silence others. It is also why some pros have left this forum, to be completely candid.


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## woodsdenis (Dec 30, 2013)

re-peat @ Sun Dec 29 said:


> I don’t need anybody to tell me that I’m rude and tactless, because I know I am.
> 
> _



Kinda says it all really. Unfortunately if people behave this way threads get derailed very quickly.


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## rayinstirling (Dec 30, 2013)

eDrummist,

You won't give up on this will you? The last paragraph of your most recent post says so.
I gave my opinion on what I thought of the SOUND of Spotlight Strings and that was all I thought I needed to say however, I am getting very close to making it personal. 
Your like a dog with a bloody bone. You are getting so self righteous and of course you have all the proper qualifications to be that way so you keep telling us.
If I didn't know the subject and history of these recent threads I would conclude you to be more annoying than Piet by a country mile.
I have my own thoughts on why many pros would leave or seldom post here. I watched it happen on another forum I'm a member of and it's happening here. In fact it's happening everywhere in life.
Now I don't really mean to be rude but I feel you are definitely starting to get that way.
Oh! btw I'm in marketing and the business I'm involved in has around 80% market share built on good products and service provided by me. 
Happy New Year to you and everyone when it comes.
-Ray


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 30, 2013)

rayinstirling @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> eDrummist,
> 
> You won't give up on this will you? The last paragraph of your most recent post says so.
> I gave my opinion on what I thought of the SOUND of Spotlight Strings and that was all I thought I needed to say however, I am getting very close to making it personal.
> ...



Why are you attempting to censor and bully me? I am on topic. The topic of this discussion is specifically what my post is about. I think I have value, even professional expertise, to add, this is actually my area of professional expertise, and I think if I provided my full credentials, you would agree (tens of millions of dollars in budget, led digital marketing, including social media at global 500 brands, recognized by one of the world's largest marketing associations as a thought leader on digital marketing, a recognized writer on the topic with a contract with one of the world's largest publishers, etc. What does that mean to anyone but us? Nothing or concerns that we represent advertisers, the opposing side of the equation). But regardless, you're engaging in bullying behavior and attempting to censor me. I am not attacking Piet, but addressing the dialogue and topic here. Piet and I have been having a very civil dialogue via PM. I have told him that I value his opinion -- as well as passion. I think he has a lot of value to add to this community and I can learn much from his experience that I believe was being obscured.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 30, 2013)

Tone Deaf @ Sat Dec 28 said:


> I've only been a member for about three months. Initially, I was quite pleased to observe that this place exhibited very little of the childishness I had experienced elsewhere (KVR, GearSlutz, Harmony Central). Lately however, I've seen a fair amount of ugliness.
> 
> It's a different kind of ugliness though. There is not as much of the expensive vs. cheap elitism that I've seen in other forums. There is less of the juvenile, vulgar threats and language. But there is more hurt feelings exhibited by developers, and pitchforkesque mob mentality with regard to some developer's fans.
> 
> ...



Reading this thread from the beginning (who knows what else will come) all of the posts have struck me as very reasonable, this being one of them.


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## rJames (Dec 30, 2013)

See how it gets when we target specific posts? Rebuttal, rebuttal to the rebuttal etc.

If I remember correctly, this is what happened in the KH thread. But I havent' reviewed it so I may be wrong.

And that's what I was talking about when I mentioned members trying to censor other members. Its a subtle censorship where I need to rebut your argument so that it virtually disappears as true or valid content.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 30, 2013)

Peter Alexander @ Sun Dec 29 said:


> So in fairness, I asked that the thread be locked until power was restored and Ernest could respond.
> 
> _That's fair, isn't it?_
> 
> When power was restored, I wrote the mod, thanked him, and pointed out that it was OK to unlock it. I don't know why it's still locked, but certainly not because of any profit motive on my part.



My guess is that the mod that took care of this was/is in holidays. This happens.

FWIW I unlocked the thread again (coming back from traveling just a few minutes ago). Regarding my contributions there, feel free to criticize to your heart's content:
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... 35af3157d4


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 30, 2013)

rJames @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> See how it gets when we target specific posts? Rebuttal, rebuttal to the rebuttal etc.
> 
> If I remember correctly, this is what happened in the KH thread. But I havent' reviewed it so I may be wrong.
> 
> And that's what I was talking about when I mentioned members trying to censor other members. Its a subtle censorship where I need to rebut your argument so that it virtually disappears as true or valid content.



I think you make a very valid point. Where the problem lies, imo, is that uncivil behavior must be addressed and it's when forum members violate the policy of respecting others that there is a problem. For instance, in the above posts, I have no issue with rayinstirling disagreeing with my view point, but instead, the personal attacks such as: 

"I am getting very close to making it personal"
"You are getting so self righteous"

It is when forum members go beyond the topic, sample libraries or things and make it personal, about developers, about fellow forum members -- about human beings ---- and NOT about ideas or libraries. Challenge the libraries and challenge the ideas, don't make it about discounting the worth of individuals and attempting to discredit their value. If rayinstirling could focus himself to challenge the ideas instead of losing control and attacking the individual, his post wouldn't be problematic. Even if you don't like a fellow group member (which is clearly the case here), find a way to communicate with respect and focus on the ideas or opinions and debate them, not the merits of a person, his/her professional skills and expertise or his/her right to voice his opinion. That's what 20 years of managing digital and social media have led me to believe as both a participant and a manager. And not all of that has been within the realm of marketing. I handled forums for my at that time employer's 9/11 survivors and their families when the company I was global digital strategy director of lost 176 employees.


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## rJames (Dec 30, 2013)

This illustrates the problem in trying to "moderate," these forums. You have drawn a line one place. I might draw the line in a different place when I read (paraphrased) "he's probably a very nice guy but everything he develops sounds like shit." Is that a personal attack or is that a comment on someone's work?

State your opinion and let it go. The next person who speaks loses. (meaning that if you have to defend your comments, maybe they aren't so obvious to everyone else.)

And I'm not talking to eDrummer or anyone, just in general...


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## Arbee (Dec 30, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> Is it worth starting a poll on this specific point? If so, where? For the avoidance of doubt, here's my proposal:
> 
> Commercial Announcements ONLY to become more strictly moderated. Contributions welcome from all, but should be factual / genuine questions related specifically to the product being promoted. All wider discussions and opinions should take place elsewhere within VI-C, with the same light touch moderation as currently. Developers would have the option of ONLY frequenting the Commercial Announcements thread (a relative safe haven), or taking part in the wider community discussions which are more likely to be a rougher ride. The dual aim is to keep developers at VI-C who have been public regarding their dislike of the community, while simultaneously allowing freedom of discussion elsewhere at VI-C without having to tiptoe around developer sensitivities.


I'd be fully supportive of this Guy.

Tbh, I really only started this thread in the hope it might just make us all reflect a little on how and what we post on this great forum. Something very relevant - I'm a great fan of Wiio's laws of communication:

http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/wiio.html

Further down that page is this gem:

"Korpela's First Corollary: If nobody barks at you, your message did not get through", which I think probably resonates well with a few here :wink: 

Wishing you all a happy and successful 2014!

.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 30, 2013)

Oh for crying out loud guys, nobody is talking about censorship.

Rule #7 states: "When posting, please maintain a respectful tone towards all members of this forum. If you cannot agree to disagree respectfully on a subject, please refrain from posting."

When you joined this forum; you, me, Piet, everyone, you agreed to abide by this.

If you don't, there should be consequences. That is not the same thing as censorship.


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## rJames (Dec 30, 2013)

Read the thread more carefully. Censorship has been proposed.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 30, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> Oh for crying out loud guys, nobody is talking about censorship.
> 
> Rule #7 states: "When posting, please maintain a respectful tone towards all members of this forum. If you cannot agree to disagree respectfully on a subject, please refrain from posting."
> 
> ...



"Respectful" disagreement is in the eye of the beholder.

For example- I am often irreverent and or challenging. That's how I see it- not as disrespectful. It's certainly a subjective call. Disrespectful? Irreverent? Tomato/tomahto.


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## Arbee (Dec 30, 2013)

Dear eDrummist, while the KH thread was part of my reason for starting this one, it wasn't the whole reason. Another aspect has been the commercial announcements, where immediate love/hate and distracting responses start to fly thick and fast based on very littlle sonic or technical evidence, intended to colour my impression of what is being announced. Or worse, where any negative responses are immediately followed by extensive damage control posting. Very tedious. I have ears, a brain, and my personal preferences - I'll work it out for myself.

I think we've now kicked the KH thread to death, even for illustrative purposes. Respectfully, and in full acknowledgement of your extensive social media experience, I fear that the repetition may be counter productive as people (like me) start to predict and overlook some posts rather than actually read them, which would be a shame.

.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 30, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Oh for crying out loud guys, nobody is talking about censorship.
> ...


 
Which is why we have "moderators."Not "censors", "moderators."

From the dictionary: moderate: monitor (an Internet message board or chat room) for inappropriate or offensive content.

I think it fair to say that there were certain comments made that _nobody_ could honestly classify as "respectful."


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## germancomponist (Dec 30, 2013)

Relax a bit and listen to this nice music.


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## Arbee (Dec 30, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> For example- I am often irreverent and or challenging. That's how I see it- not as disrespectful. It's certainly a subjective call. Disrespectful? Irreverent? Tomato/tomahto.


"Respectfully irreverent" - a term dear to my heart (and a founding principle of Aussie culture methinks)  .

.


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## Arbee (Dec 30, 2013)

germancomponist @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> Relax a bit and listen to this nice music.



Beautiful, and timely :lol: 

.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 30, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> NYC Composer @ Mon Dec 30 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 30 said:
> ...



I find your comment deeply offensive. Your citing of a dictionary definition indicates that you think I'm an idiot. Your repetition of the word "moderators" was filled with scorn.

I have reported you to Moderation. Thankfully, they've agreed with my assessment of your behavior, and you will probably be banned. 

:wink:


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 30, 2013)

rJames @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> This illustrates the problem in trying to "moderate," these forums. You have drawn a line one place. I might draw the line in a different place when I read (paraphrased) "he's probably a very nice guy but everything he develops sounds like [email protected]#t." Is that a personal attack or is that a comment on someone's work?
> 
> State your opinion and let it go. The next person who speaks loses. (meaning that if you have to defend your comments, maybe they aren't so obvious to everyone else.)
> 
> And I'm not talking to eDrummer or anyone, just in general...



I wouldn't classify the posting of "he's probably a very nice guy but everything he develops sounds like [email protected]#t" as moderation worthy. I think it's rude and I personally might address the poster as a fellow community member, hoping he will modify his behavior, but as I mentioned earlier, I do not believe that attacking a product, work or idea rises to the level of attacking an individual's character, skills or abilities -- all of which is behavior that crosses a line at which point moderation is necessary in virtually any well managed online forum and is consistent with the policy of this forum. 

Effectively managing any healthy online forum requires rules and governance -- and at times, moderation -- in order to maintain a healthy, non-dysfunctional environment. I greatly value the free exchange of ideas (I've made the case to NOT censor harsh critics at large brands who had managers that sought to censor critics) and realize that can sometimes get messy, but don't believe that everything is this choice between more consistent moderation and a police state, as some here have basically expressed. I believe plenty of online communities get this right. That said, I thoroughly understand that the bitter aftertaste of NorthernSounds is in a lot of mouths here. But my assessment is that NorthernSounds imploded due to some very poor practices and implementation of a police state where those who ran the site gave some very heavy handed developers/advertisers virtually unbridled control to censor any conversation they didn't like. Just like in the news media/publishing there needs to be a balance between editorial concerns and those of advertisers. NorthernSounds didn't have that balance, the community became very aware of that (although it may have been expressed in ways that former members may not associate with advertisers, I believe it was) and went elsewhere.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 30, 2013)

RE: Rule #7 states: "When posting, please maintain a respectful tone towards all members of this forum. If you cannot agree to disagree respectfully on a subject, please refrain from posting." 

I honestly believe that 90% of us know clearly when that line is and is not being crossed. I think some here however, philosophically think that there should not be a line because they think that nobody should tell them that there are any limits to what they can and cannot say or govern how they can say it. They make no distinction between censorship and moderation. and so even though they signed on agreeing to it, they don't want it enforced.


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## rJames (Dec 30, 2013)

To eDrummist, couple of things.

#1 I think that is about the content of the KH thread until subtle member "censorship" started a rebuttal war (as I'm calling it)

#2 I'll bet the site owner of NS got a lot more money put into his pockets by that behavior/model. We should consider ourselves VERY lucky.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 30, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> RE: Rule #7 states: "When posting, please maintain a respectful tone towards all members of this forum. If you cannot agree to disagree respectfully on a subject, please refrain from posting."
> 
> I honestly believe that 90% of us know clearly when that line is and is not being crossed. I think some here however, philosophically think that there should not be a line because they think that nobody should tell them that there are any limits to what they can and cannot say or govern how they can say it. They make no distinction between censorship and moderation. and so even though they signed on agreeing to it, they don't want it enforced.



Yet you have never addressed my point. To state it without humor (since humor proved ineffective):

What's wrong with ignoring people and/or posts you find offensive rather than set a subjective standard of behavior that will probably cause even more disagreement and bad feelings, not to mention extra work for unpaid mods?


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 30, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 30 said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Rule #7 states: "When posting, please maintain a respectful tone towards all members of this forum. If you cannot agree to disagree respectfully on a subject, please refrain from posting."
> ...



Because many , perhaps most, human beings frequently do get upset when treated really disrespectfully and it leads to unpleasant fighting that ruins thread after thread. Also, no community should tolerate disrespectful behavior, and supposedly we ARE a community and not just a collection of individuals.

I think that after 1 month of doing this, the mods would hardly ever have to again except for the occasional newbie.


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## Audio (Dec 30, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ 12/30/2013 said:


> NYC Composer @ Mon Dec 30 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 30 said:
> ...



...the difference being....?


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## NYC Composer (Dec 30, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> NYC Composer @ Mon Dec 30 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 30 said:
> ...



I respectfully and totally disagree. There are new forum members every day. To be effective, it would have to be constant and ongoing, involving reportage and banning of the recalcitrant....and there we'd be again. If that day comes, I'll be outa here, leaving a trail of broken hearts and tears behind me. 

Ok, not-but I'll be out for sure.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 30, 2013)

I guess I am more optimistic about human nature than you. 85% of the people here are already reasonably respectful to each other, including you and me. 5% of the others would be if encouraged to be and another 5% would do so begrudgingly if they knew that there were consequences for not being so.. 5% we might lose, but I think we would be better off without that 5%.


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## rJames (Dec 30, 2013)

So, is Kirk Hunter a member of the forum? If not then Rule #7 does not apply.

And if Rule #7 already exists... what ARE we talking about.

Are we asking if we should start enforcing Rule #7? Or are we trying to expand Rule #7?

Are there any sub-articles to Rule #7? CAuse that may be where the problem lies.

Or is this thread just getting really esoteric?


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## gpax (Dec 30, 2013)

Sorry I'm late, everyone. What did I miss?


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 30, 2013)

rJames @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> So, is Kirk Hunter a member of the forum? If not then Rule #7 does not apply.
> 
> And if Rule #7 already exists... what ARE we talking about.
> 
> ...



You are correct, he was not, but he is joining it at my suggestion. You will like him, he is a gentleman.

I can't speak for anyone but myself. What I am asking for is simply enforcing rule #7, and not in a Draconian way., threatening people and berating them, Just a simple PM to the person, saying, "Hey buddy, dial it back please as it is not in accordance with our posted standards." If that was ignored, then and only then, other steps would need to be taken.

Although I do think we should apply that same courtesy to non-members when members start threads about them.


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## rJames (Dec 30, 2013)

Hey Jay, and you know I'm just trying to lighten up the thread a bit.

Honestly, I assume that everyone here agrees with you. I see nothing wrong with a mod PMing someone they think has crossed the line.

Yours and Piets difference of opinion was online though. And no matter what I think about Rule #7, it doesn't apply to online rebuttals.

If you read through some of todays posts in this thread you'll know that I posit that some of the vitriol comes from members feeling like they are being discounted. I truly believe that is where the threads get derailed.

BTW if you (or any mods) are going to PM someone for going over the line, it might be appropriate to notify the person who inflamed the situation in a PM as well.

And I'm not talking about specific situations... just in general.

Much of what I am concerned about in this thread has to do with the proposition that there be a Commercial Announcements forum where developers can delete posts at will. Or where there are no member posts allowed. Honestly, I think that is dangerous. CAuse whether this product or that product is crap, this forum is here to help composers make choices whether it is in note selection, cc control dynamics or library and developer integrity.

A variety of opinions is good and we get to know who we can trust and who we cannot. 

BTW as ironic (or maybe counterintuitive) as it may be, I know I can trust you as well as Piet.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 30, 2013)

rJames @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> Hey Jay, and you know I'm just trying to lighten up the thread a bit.
> 
> Honestly, I assume that everyone here agrees with you. I see nothing wrong with a mod PMing someone they think has crossed the line.
> 
> ...



I think rule #7 applies to every sentence that is typed here. Anyway, I think this was a splash of cold water to the face of the whole forum and I am optimistic that its best days are ahead.


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## woodsdenis (Dec 30, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> I guess I am more optimistic about human nature than you. 85% of the people here are already reasonably respectful to each other, including you and me. 5% of the others would be if encouraged to be and another 5% would do so begrudgingly if they knew that there were consequences for not being so.. 5% we might lose, but I think we would be better off without that 5%.



+1 Jay 

and cmon guys we all know who the 5% we would lose are. Maybe the members who have been here for years might turn a blind eye or maybe have got used to it but the rude and tactless poster/s here are well known. 

They bring the level of debate down to a personal level and somehow feel an entitlement to be obnoxious to fellow members. Heated debate and opposing views absolutely, have a look at the KH thread and its very obvious who the main offender is.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 30, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> I guess I am more optimistic about human nature than you. 85% of the people here are already reasonably respectful to each other, including you and me. 5% of the others would be if encouraged to be and another 5% would do so begrudgingly if they knew that there were consequences for not being so.. 5% we might lose, but I think we would be better off without that 5%.



Or I am more optimistic about human nature than you and believe individuals and communities can police themselves without the need for parental oversight, and that 85% of people (where DO you pull these numbers from?? I expect I know, but saying it would be rude) can ignore those people and posts they find upsetting or uninformative.

The proof is in the pudding. I hope you never get your way and we'll never be in a position to test your theories. Regardless, Happy New Year!


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## Hannes_F (Dec 30, 2013)

rJames @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> BTW if you (or any mods) are going to PM someone for going over the line, it might be appropriate to notify the person who inflamed the situation in a PM as well.



Good suggestion.



> Much of what I am concerned about in this thread has to do with the proposition that there be a Commercial Announcements forum where developers can delete posts at will.



Eh? I did not understand developers should be given moderation rights.



> Or where there are no member posts allowed.



And that's not how I understand it either. The idea is that the Commercial Announcements is more closely watched by the moderators in order to for example

- keep developers out of other companies' threads
- therefore keep comparisions between companies and products out of the announcement threads or the developers would be quasi forced to step in
- keep these announcements threads free from support requests for other products (even if being from the same developer)

All that could happen in the Sample Talk area but the Commercial Announcement threads should really be reserved for questions that are directly related to the announced product itself. That is the suggestion.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 30, 2013)

Larry, I think the last few days have proven you wrong and that attitudes have shifted but time will tell.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 30, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> Larry, I think the last few days have proven you wrong and that attitudes have shifted but time will tell.



Well, someone has to be wrong, otherwise, how can you be right?

In other words, why is your preference (which is really what we're talking about here, preferences of what our forum should be like) RIGHT, and mine WRONG? That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

(I try to get out, but he PULLS me back in)*


*Godfather III, paraphrased


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 30, 2013)

Oh and my numbers were arrived at scientifically. I took 100 members, 100 posts each..... ok, ok, I pulled them out of my butt.

And I would love to be wrong about this, but it has gotten worse, not better so I think it is unlikely.


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 30, 2013)

rJames @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> To eDrummist, couple of things.
> 
> #1 I think that is about the content of the KH thread until subtle member "censorship" started a rebuttal war (as I'm calling it)
> 
> #2 I'll bet the site owner of NS got a lot more money put into his pockets by that behavior/model. We should consider ourselves VERY lucky.



I'm not sure I completely follow point #1, but I definitely like your term "rebuttal war" because it's a good description of what often occurs in forums, especially when one forum member has a disagreement with another forum member and it often worsens when instigating forum members attack or misstate the position of someone they do not agree with or like. But I don't find "rebuttal wars" themselves equal personal attacks. For example, if someone mis-states something I wrote or attempts to misrepresent my actions or point of view, I will attempt to clarify it. To someone who is attempting to instigate trouble, the response will, of course lead to the other person's response; I usually try to limit myself to 2-3 responses unless the fellow member is consistently disruptive and won't stop the bad behavior. But no doubt, when faced with a poorly behaving member or troll and confronting that behavior, one is virtually guaranteed a rebuttal. 

Regarding your specific reference to the KHS thread, if your point is that personalized attacks or rebuttal attacks upon other forum members by a fellow member does serve to censor conversations and participation (which I'm not certain it is) through intimidation -- even result in forum members leaving is censorship, I agree. Technically, one could say that isn't censorship in the strict technical sense of the term, but it is, in effect, using intimidation to censor others and that is the behavior that I believe must be confronted and addressed in any healthy forum. Of course, by one forum member addressing an equal/fellow forum member does put a target on one's head (which I realized fully going in), which would be, imo, a case why the situation needs to be escalated to a moderator in some cases. But realistically, there's simply no way to confront such behavior that isn't messy. 

If you meant that "censorship" is where one forum member merely confronts another forum member about their behavior by making an appeal to that member to appeal and asserts no forum authority or threat of intimidation or harassment, I would disagree with the application of the term censorship. Censorship requires the censoring party to wield either authoritative or coercive power (basically, through intimidation or harassment, as I described earlier). In the KHS thread, my interaction with Piet, for example, was merely to appeal to him. With the involvement of moderators and a PM dialogue between Piet and myself, we arrived at some agreements regarding respecting our fellow forum members as well as the value of the ability to express negative opinions. Was there anyway to get to that point without going through that messy confrontation? I really don't believe so, because if there was, I surely would have chosen that route. (Ftr, I was PMing Piet even in the course of the forum dialogue and my PMs were very respectful, even acknowledging that I've heard his work and have found him very talented and respect his opinions regarding music and sample libraries -- even ones I where we may not agree, as in KHS libraries.)


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## JE Martinsen (Dec 30, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> What's wrong with ignoring people and/or posts you find offensive rather than set a subjective standard of behavior that will probably cause even more disagreement and bad feelings, not to mention extra work for unpaid mods?



I agree.

I have to admit my jaw dropped to the floor when I read re-peat's first comments in the KH Spotlight thread, well most of them in fact. He could have expressed his opinions in a far more civilized (or shall we say diplomatic?) manner than he did.

@eDrummist : .. but I also have to say that it was a bit strange to read your comments about personal/unfair attacks when you do exactly the same yourself, perhaps even stretching it a but further IMHO.

In response to one of re-peat's comments you wrote : "I admit, I only took one course that covered abnormal psychology in college, but it seems to me there's an excellent case study material here for OCD and much more." 

And you continue : "When I see your posts, I see a person with many issues, a lot of strong opinions, an ego that is out of control and venom against a developer." 

Well, I really don't think it's necessary to comment on that any further. But to me it seems a bit sanctimonious to be "preaching" about how to behave on this forum, when you yourself are spewing out a personal attack of (IMHO) the worst kind in your response to re-peat.

That said (and it shouldn't even be necessary to point out), I have the greatest respect for you and re-peat. Actually, I think re-peat has an edge to some of his posts that even make them a bit entertaining, at least to me (yes, I'm serious). Of course we deserve to be told and corrected when we step over the line. Absolutely! But I also think what we miss is a little bit of humour. It's not always that easy to get our messages through like we initially intended. We are members from all over the world, and what would have a positive meaning in one language would sometimes have a more negative meaning in another. And many of us are translating our native language into english, which sometimes can be difficult.

But I would think it IS possible to make more use of "(I'm just joking of course! No offense!)" and smiley's and what have you. Sometimes a :wink: can be of great help to get through that the poster didn't mean to offend, or was just joking in a friendly way. We really are a sensitive bunch of artistes here, which is all good! I am just suggesting that it might be a good idea to count slowly to ten sometimes...


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## choc0thrax (Dec 30, 2013)

I admire Piet's stamina - I gave up crapping on Kirk Hunter libraries years ago due to exhaustion. Piet is always a breath of fresh air around here.


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## Arbee (Dec 30, 2013)

In the context of "there is no such thing as bad publicity" would it be too cynical of me to suggest that Kirk Hunter's new string library has now successfully had more time in the "spotlight" on this forum than would have normally been the case without the s...storm?

.


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## choc0thrax (Dec 30, 2013)

Arbee @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> In the context of "there is no such thing as bad publicity" would it be too cynical of me to suggest that Kirk Hunter's new string library has now successfully had more time in the "spotlight" on this forum than would have normally been the case without the s...storm?
> 
> .



This is the case with every KH release.


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 30, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> rJames @ Mon Dec 30 said:
> 
> 
> > So, is Kirk Hunter a member of the forum? If not then Rule #7 does not apply.
> ...



Actually Kirk was/is a registered member. He came to me to help him get his login straightened out over the weekend and I worked it out with Frederick. In the end, Kirk chose a different user name, so his new user name, I think KH will show him as having just joined, but technically, yes, Kirk has been a registered VI Control member for a while, at least two years, because we discussed it during group buys and the release of Pop/Rock Strings. I've been urging him to get more involved here for a long time and knew he had an account. I think it was KirkHunter. Now it will be KH.


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 30, 2013)

Arbee @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> In the context of "there is no such thing as bad publicity" would it be too cynical of me to suggest that Kirk Hunter's new string library has now successfully had more time in the "spotlight" on this forum than would have normally been the case without the s...storm?
> 
> .



The adage "there's no such thing as bad publicity" was created a long time ago to refer to movie stars. It was just a saying and it absolutely does not apply to business brands. Some business examples: Enron, Tyco, Arthur Anderson, etc. Personal brand examples (granted, some of these are very American examples): Casey Anthony, Anthony Weiner, Bernie Maddoff, Mel Gibson, Eliot Spitzer, Michael Jackson, Gary Glitter...


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## Arbee (Dec 30, 2013)

eDrummist @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> Arbee @ Mon Dec 30 said:
> 
> 
> > In the context of "there is no such thing as bad publicity" would it be too cynical of me to suggest that Kirk Hunter's new string library has now successfully had more time in the "spotlight" on this forum than would have normally been the case without the s...storm?
> ...


Or to be more true to its roots:

"There is only one thing in life worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." - Oscar Wilde

.


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 30, 2013)

Okay, I had injected a little, lighthearted self-deprecating humor, but after the poster below brought up the very serious underlying problem here, I thought I'd replace it as to not distract from his point. I hope this person's thoughtful post isn't drowned out by the louder, more aggressive voices here, because I'm confident his viewpoint represents most forum users and should be heard over the noise.


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## voxhumana (Dec 30, 2013)

I am a professional arranger who visits this site regularly, and who has contributed $100 to its ongoing welfare. I am obviously far from alone.

I am happy for any and all to express vehement displeasure with a product or service. But the forum should be kept civil and professional. This site needs moderation for the outrageously immature and unprofessional conduct that is displayed, most notably by re-peat.

Referring to someone's work as [EDITED by Hannes_F] is totally unacceptable in any professional environment. It is childish, petulant and simply embarrassing. Such ridiculous conduct needs to be moderated away.

Some of us use this site as a service for our professional work. Others use it in an apparent desperate attempt to create some meaning in their lives. That can't be helped, but their absurd outbursts should be regulated.


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 31, 2013)

Started a poll on the Commercial Annoucements proposal - http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35852

JE Martinsen made some good points above. What folks find offensive varies hugely. For myself, few things are likely to offend me more than a business employee psychologically profiling me, no matter how politely written that is, whereas using less temperate language to describe a product I may or may not like is far less likely to concern me.

For example.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 31, 2013)

Gentlemen,

just a few minutes ago I erased the dangerous word . . . as a consequence I had to edit it as well in those postings that quoted it.

If most mods would not have been in holidays these days it would probably not have lived that long but this happens. A good day to all of you.


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## ProtectedRights (Dec 31, 2013)

Hm... I just read the proposal over in the poll thread. It appears to me that the only reason why something should be changed is to avoid that developers leave the forum because they fear negative comments here.

Now, if the change is made as described, would that change anything for the dev? The Commercial OP would remain clean, but rage and rants could happen in other threads. Would that really make a dev happy? 

Actually I like the situation as it is. There is a commercial announcement, and you can read in that very thread what people think about it. You can see that some devs/products are more controversially disputed than others. But I highly value the fact that you have everything in one thread.

If a dev is unhappy with that and leaves the forum, that is his own damage, because of less publicity he has then.

So I could agree to moderating the Commercial threads a little closer, but not to restrict them to factual posts only. Everyone should still be able to express their opinion there, but mods could keep an eye on that appropriate words are chosen.

I love freedom.


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## dedersen (Dec 31, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> What folks find offensive varies hugely. For myself, few things are likely to offend me more than a business employee psychologically profiling me, no matter how politely written that is, whereas using less temperate language to describe a product I may or may not like is far less likely to concern me.
> 
> For example.


Could not agree more.

As for ignore buttons, friend/foe buttons, etc. How difficult is it really to implement these on your own, by simply, well, ignoring those posts you find offensive? Myself, I often find that the heated discussions are great afternoon entertainment.

I kinda like the idea of a more moderated commercial section, not so much to remove offensive posts, but more to keep them a bit more limited in scope. It can be near impossible finding the right information I n those epic 20+ page announcements sometimes, and developers often have to answer the same questions over and over again.


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 31, 2013)

@JE Martinsen If you go and read the KHS thread (some of Piet's posts have since been moderator edited), you'll note that I started my first post your referring to as worse than what Piet wrote (I quoted it in full below) by injecting a little self-deprecating humor about my merely having a single college course in psychology. I responded to both Piet's current remarks, but also was admittedly exasperated by literally 7 years of his doing this in literally every thread I've known of here that mentions Kirk Hunter and his libraries. Piet's comments go far beyond product criticisms and into the realm of very personal and professional assaults and then attacks on those who use and like KHS libraries. It's brutal and in violation of VI Control's stated respect policy. So after all of this, I was honestly fed up with the behavior and that it was being tolerated here and wanted to confront this bully. Again, not because he attacks a product, a piece of music or an idea, but because he makes really awful, extremely uncivil personal and professional attacks on others on serial basis on any thread where Kirk Hunter Studios is mentioned. I specifically stated that I have no issue with anyone harshly criticizing a product. It is personal attacks that are problematic. The one unfortunate choice I made in that first post that you pointed out was using the term OCD, a term Americans often use informally to refer to any obsessive behavior that is over the top (that said, out of respect for others who have the actual illness, I'm going to edit my references in the original posts as it clearly is taken different outside the US based on your reaction and one other here) -- in this case, I referred to Piet's attacking KHS related threads for 7 yrs as obsessive, which I do find it is. But as you stated that you believe what I wrote wasn't only comparable, but even worse to what Piet wrote, it questions what I wrote and my standards of decency. I do not believe there is any comparison to be made and I hope that after reviewing statements or the thread, you might reconsider that statement of yours. 

*Some of Piet's remarks in the thread:*

"I hear this new KH product _excrement_..."

"I really-truly-honestly-seriously can not understand how any discerning, self-respecting musician, contemplating and/or hoping to acquire serious tools for convincing stringssimulation, could ever say: “Hey, this sounds pretty good, doesn’t it?...And that, dearest aliens (‘alien’ as in: species I seem to have little or no musical affinity with)... "

"I find KH’s efforts so offensively bad that I consider them a personal insult to any serious musician (performer, composer, orchestrator, library developer, …), a demographic which I consider myself, arrogantly as ever of course, to be a part of."

"So I am sorry, but when I hear strings sampled as badly as Mr. Hunter sampled them for this new library, _I can’t but expres my complete bewilderment, lack of understanding and anger as to why anyone can have so little shame and self-respect, delivering work of such poor quality, and even dare ask money for it_. "

"_Mr. Hunter seems unable to produce anything but libraries which are far below what I consider the minimum standard._"

_"...KH is so predictably bad."_ (Note, he's not referring to the products, but Mr Hunter himself.)

"It’s not my fault that Mr. Hunter seems to specialize in phenomenally bad libraries, is it? And excuse me, _but anyone selling sheer incompetence should be prepared for some unpleasant backfiring, it seems to me_."

"Yes, elitist intolerance of unsympathetic magnitude on my part, I know, but someone has to muster it, I strongly feel." 

*ABOUT ANOTHER FORUM MEMBER WHO JUST JOINED AND HAS 35 YRS EXPERIENCE AS A MEMBER OF A WELL RESPECTED ORCHESTRA AND USES KIRK'S LIBRARIES:*
"As well as one other little thing: that decades of orchestral experience don’t amount to much, when switching over to the virtual idiom."

*SOME OF THE TERMS I WAS CALLED BY PIET: *
dishonest, cowardly, malicious, presumptuous, pretentious, conceited, childish, 
tediously pompous, totally absurd, pathetic self-aggrandizement, pedantic, hysterical drama-queen, sanctimonious, liar... 

*MY POST THAT JE Martinsen Quoted, IN ITS ENTIRETY* 
(This is the post in it's entirety, no editing; the rest of my posts are still their in their original form, but this was the only one in question as being as per JE Martinsen worse behavior than Piet's remarks)

"Wow, re-peat. You're certainly allowed to loathe someone's work, but why several years and clearly hours spent by you checking out Kirk's demos and scraping an MP3 out of his YouTube videos and editing and posting them here along with long-winded rants? I admit, I only took one course that covered abnormal psychology in college, but it seems to me there's an excellent case study material here for OCD and much more. 

So, we have well respected musicians like Bruce Miller, Jeff Beal, Alan Silvestri, David Newman, Jeff Bova and Kerry Livgren who are long time users of Kirk's libraries, Tracy Collins of Indiginus, a well respected developer, who on page one of this thread, states he's a KHS user who plans on picking up Spotlight Strings, yet according to you, no one with a decent set of ears could possibly find KHS libraries anything less than horrible. Clearly that means that you believe you have superior ears to these composer/musicians? 

Sorry, I don't know your work, don't know who you are beyond your first name, Piet. I completely agree with your right to not like a library or even the work of a developer, but not to spend several years and making venomous posts as part of an obsessive compulsive mission focused on this developer; that's excessive, over the line, to say the least imho. You possess an incredibly overblown sense of self-importance and a constant habit of demeaning others' opinions -- even when their credentials exceed your own. When I see your posts, I see a person with many issues, a lot of strong opinions, an ego that is out of control and venom against a developer. And, ftr, your opinions are a lot less important than you think they are. Move along."


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 31, 2013)

(just for avoidance of doubt - I wasn't referring to you eDrummist in my post)


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 31, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> (just for avoidance of doubt - I wasn't referring to you eDrummist in my post)



Thanks for the clarification. Since you referred to JE Martinsen's post referring to me, I took it you were.


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## ProtectedRights (Dec 31, 2013)

@eDrummist: didn't you guys (you and re-peat) make friends via PM? That's what I understood from the other thread, so I am astonished to read more dirty laundry here?


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## Arbee (Dec 31, 2013)

Yes, please can this be over now - these long repetitive posts over and over and over again are really not achieving anything.

.


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## re-peat (Dec 31, 2013)

_(eDrummmist, I extended a kind, reconciliatory hand to you, but you can hereby consider it permanently retracted, including any promise I made during those five, clearly wasted, minutes of rapprochement.)_

Guys, I’m getting seriously tired of some of the above. 

I’ve written about 1650 posts here, 1500 of which contain carefully written, intelligent, well-informed, thoroughly researched, still very readworthy and often helpful material and ideas pertaining to all aspects of music and musicmaking. I have even written entire essays on various composers, on film music, on classical music, on what is great about great music, on various technical aspects of music production and numerous other subjects which I believe to be of interest to a community such as this. It’s all accessible in the big library that is V.I. 
I’ve helped beginners on their way, assisted up-coming composers, made countless useful product demos, submitted product reviews, outlined itineraries and solutions when people struggled or got stuck, prepared hundreds of audio examples to illustrate my posts with, and shared truckloads of relevant experience and know-how. For almost 10 years long.

If some of the tools which many of us are working with day-in-day-out, are better today than they were when first released, it is thanks to me making an obnoxious nuisance of myself. 
(If the next installment of the ongoing Kirk Hunter diarrhea will be slightly less offensive to our senses than the previous one ― highly unlikely of course, but anyway ―, it’ll be thanks to V.I., and me especially.)

Not a fortnight goes by that I’m not asked to give my views on some library or other. (The last one to do so was … wait for it … eDrummist himself, inquiring yesterday what my thoughts were on the Prague strings. I replied duly.) People knock on my door for my “great ears” (those are not my words) and advice. And they all get a thoroughly considered, helpful reply in which I invariably invest plenty of thought, time and effort.

Oh yes, I’ve had some nasty, sometimes regrettable quarrels with several members, but I’ve also made peace with most of them (except the irredeemably stupid ones.) And some of them are still grateful for the quarrel because it has led them to new insights or because it revitalized their motivation. Some members here deliver better work now than they did before I upset them with a merciless critique.

Sure, I make mistakes, big ones even, but that’s because I always jump in with everything I’ve got. Everytime I’m here. Thousands of other members don’t make mistakes, I know, but that’s because they commit to nothing, give nothing, or do nothing.
And yes, I can be an unbearably arrogant and insensitive asshole with an, at times, nitroglycerine-like character. And yes, I may have offended some people with my brutally loud mouth along the way, but I also know (for a fact) that I helped give this forum some extra appeal by the total honesty and the completely independent thinking behind everything I write. Because I have no agendas, I don’t belong to some incestuous L.A. coterie of composers/developers who instantly rally around whenever one of their own is under discussion … Entirely my own man. No ties, no hidden allegiances, no cloak-and-dagger, no puppet-on-a-string charades, no compromises, no unsavoury dealings.
Made quite a few enemies here over the years because of all that I suppose, but also a great many friends, and I received many, many handfuls of genuine appreciation and thanks for what I wrote and how it was written.

Now, all you holier-than-thou wankers, go find me five other members who can write those same paragraphs.

And all you guys can keep whining about is the odd misjudged post of mine, the sporadic foul word, or the occasional unseemly wrangle which I happen to cause once every seven moons???

I will never suggest that my positive contributions here have earned me a license to always stampede the place like an out-of-control bully, certainly not, nor do I merit any special consideration, but a little bit less of the old "oh my, what an awful, uncivil and disrespectful person you are" might perhaps not be entirely inappropriate. My contributions, flawed as some of them may be, show more true respect ― _true_ respect, that is ― and love for this community and its members than that of all you safe-playing, hypocritical, rule-seven-abiding choirboys put together. 

All of the above, the good and the bad, it all comes from one sincere desire: help make V.I. a place where musicians ― composers as well as developers ― might get inspired to do better tomorrow than they did today. 

That’s who I am. And I will never again apologize for it.

_


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## dedersen (Dec 31, 2013)

It's a bit of a shame that the reconciliation was via PM, actually. Mostly because I'm just really curious about how you guys ever found common ground. 

EDIT: Ah, nevermind.


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## AC986 (Dec 31, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Dec 30 said:


> Larry, I think the last few days have proven you wrong and that attitudes have shifted but time will tell.



You're the best hedger of bets on this forum without any peers and that's a fact! :mrgreen:


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## Stephen Rees (Dec 31, 2013)

I hate to think what a welcome Beethoven or Stravinsky would have got if they lived in our age and were to post on this forum.


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## TheUnfinished (Dec 31, 2013)

eDrummist, please take a time out.

Whether you like it or not, people are allowed to disagree with you and your conduct. And each disagreement with you in a thread on here does not require an extensive point by point essay and argumentum ad verecundiam. Such actions are as derailing as comments others deem offensive.

And because someone disagrees with you, doesn't automatically mean that they agree with your 'adversary'. Such things are possible. They may dislike the conduct of both of you.

Generally, if we have learned anything from this thread it is perhaps that nobody agrees what it is that crosses the line of offense. There's some discussion that certain percentages of the body of VI would have a level of agreement... but, is this thread itself, the only direct evidence we actually have of opinion, suggesting the contrary? 

Next we'll have people appealing to that complete misnomer "common sense"!


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## AC986 (Dec 31, 2013)

eDrummist @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> So, we have well respected musicians like Bruce Miller, Jeff Beal, Alan Silvestri, David Newman, Jeff Bova and Kerry Livgren



How's old Dave doing? What's he up to these days?


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## woodsdenis (Dec 31, 2013)

Talented people do not need to shout, scream and bully to get their point across. They also do not need to defend their behaviour under the pretense that really they are "helping people". That is the language of the abuser.

We actulally do have very talented and successful composers here, who have never resorted the obnoxious and demeaning language vented on these forums sometimes.


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## muk (Dec 31, 2013)

It's actually quite simple in my opinion. When writing a post with offending/insulting wording, ask yourself the question: would that post matter if it was worded in a non-insulting way?

If yes: there's really no need to be offensive then, or is there?

If no: so the only thing that matters about the post is the vulgar/insulting wording? Well, that's helluva contribution to the forum.

And to make one point clear: I personally would want to have such posts deleted because of the WORDING, NOT because of the content. So what should be censored in my opinion is wording only, not the content. Which means: everybody is totally free to speak his mind and critizise or applaud to hearts desire, as long as it's done in a more or less civil way.

And a quick comment about the supposed idealist rage behind some of Piet's more rude posts: if you think that's what fuelled those, I think it would be a pretty strange reasoning. Mind you we where talking about TOOLS for music making. If ome really felt the need to defend MUSIC, one should talk more about the music itself, not the tools. But look how much feedback there is on the Member's compositions forum... (and this is not about Piet in fact. As I gathered he comments a lot about individual pieces and gives advice)
For the music itself, the tools are simply irrelevant. Do you think any of the great composers could not have written good music on a bad piano? Do you think a Mozart piece rendered with a substandard sample library makes the music less valuable as a product of art? So, in my opinion, if one wants to defend music, one should care and give advice about compositions themselves, not firstly about the quality of a mock-up.

And yes, Piet does a lot of that too. He gives serious advice to starting composers, takes a lot of time to assess tools and music and share his opinion about it. He is kind enough to produce and share audio examples. So, he's a very valuable member who contributes with his whole heart. Still, if the wording goes over the top, I'm all for editing just these bits out.


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 31, 2013)

My response was due to JE Martinsen making some pretty inflammatory, misleading and outrageous statements about my behavior in the KHS thread, spicing his post with partial quotes, name calling and his commentary. Who wouldn't have responded under those circumstances? 

FTR, I fully realized when I confronted the forum bullying in the now infamous KHS thread (which featured the same person bashing the developer and any users as every KHS thread has featured since 2007 that I've witnessed). Did I respond perfectly in that thread? No. Am I forever going to remind Piet of the thread, no; I really didn't mean to, my intent was to address the assertions JE made which were all tied to that thread and what occurred. 

@Piet I didn't post anything that went against what we spoke of in our private PMs after I reached out to you, so if you are now telling me the gloves are off, that is your choice, but those are your gloves and I certainly am not going to retaliate. I was responding to JE's statements. I'm sorry that my response merely seems like a re-hash, but if someone is going to misrepresent my behavior and name call, I am going to respond and attempt to set the record straight. As far as our PMs you can cut and paste our entire dialogue here. I reached out to you. I was sincere with you. If you wanted to vent via PM, that's fine by me. If not, that's fine by me too. But I'm certainly not interested in engaging with you in any negative manner or agitating you. A poster in this thread referred to you and me using the term adversary and it's sad that's how some people see the world, I certainly don't see things that way. I might not like your communications style, but I do not see us as adversaries and I do see your positive qualities. I've already stated privately and publicly that I believe you are a talented musician that has a lot to offer, that I could learn a lot from you and find that the other stuff is merely noise that obscures the value you add to the community imo (I admit that I don't have even a fraction of the value you add to this community, that is unquestionable. I am a mere learner here.) I don't write people off so easily. My issue was your behavior with regards to that thread, past threads and with regard to a specific dev and anyone who expresses a favorable opinion of that dev. Never would I advocate a wholesale discounting of a human being as an adversary or attempt to diminish your merits as an artist, a human being or a contributor to this forum.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 31, 2013)

[quote="TheUnfinished @ Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:00 am"
Next we'll have people appealing to that complete misnomer "common sense"![/quote]

You're too young to remember it probably the way I do, but there _was_ a time when there was enough common sense to quickly work this out. Which is why it was called _common_ sense.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 31, 2013)

re-peat @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> _(eDrummmist, I extended a kind, reconciliatory hand to you, but you can hereby consider it permanently retracted, including any promise I made during those five, clearly wasted, minutes of rapprochement.)_
> 
> Guys, I’m getting seriously tired of some of the above.
> 
> ...



Thank you, Raskolnikov. :D


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## pinki (Dec 31, 2013)

Wow what an ego Piet has...that is one mighty ego that can make a post like that.

hilarious!


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## JE Martinsen (Dec 31, 2013)

eDrummist @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> My response was due to JE Martinsen making some pretty inflammatory and misleading and outrageous statements about my behavior in the KHS thread, spicing his post with partial quotes, name calling and his commentary. Who wouldn't have responded?



Inflammatory, misleading and outrageous statements? Name calling? Do you really think so?? Hmm.. Would you mind reading my comment one more time? I tried to comment in the most respectful manner, not least when I was addressing you directly. If my view on the comments I referred to did not resonate at all with your opinion, so be it. But I really don't recognize my post from the description you made above. I was actually quite surprised that you responded the way you did. But that's me.


I wish you all the best in the new year, eDrummist!

PEACE out! o-[][]-o


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 31, 2013)

JE. To respond to your question, your post accused me of bad behavior that exceeded that of re-peat: "stretching it a but (sic) further IMHO." I think most here would find having one's behavior compared, unfavorably, to a person who proudly acknowledges insulting others and being intentionally abusive, rude and crude is inflammatory, and, in this case, wildly inaccurate. Of course, I'm going to respond. You just responded to my citing your post. Claiming I was the one "spewing out a personal attack of (IMHO) the worst kind" when I was confronting a man engaged in incredible bullying, in fact, 7 years of targeting for harassment anyone who favorably mentions KHS libraries, is misleading. Also, pulling out some quotes from me (quotes which, in their proper context, not your narrative, I don't find problematic) without the corresponding quotes from Piet I was responding to is extremely imbalanced, lacking accurate context (which you provided in the form of a highly subjective opinion of things, not in the form actual quotes). 

You referred to me doing this as "sanctimonious" and "preaching," for what? Because I didn't want to sit idly by while a forum member brutally assaults not products (which is no big deal to me and I never confronted anyone over harsh words about a product), but the skills and abilities of others, even their artistic value as a human being, harassing and bullying anyone who expresses an opinion that he disagrees with? Note that I never actually had any dialogue/exchange/PM with Piet prior to confronting him in that thread. We had no personal history. He never referred to me, attacked or referenced me in any post, so I was not reacting to anything personal against me, but what I observed him doing to others. I was fully aware that once I confronted him, he would surely direct his hostile energy from others to me, and while I don't like that, I thought it would at least stop others from being bullied and maybe the moderators might address the problem and others might speak up about Piet's behavior (as they did and are doing in this thread). But I believe that someone who cares about this community needs to speak up when they witness this kind of behavior even if they're not the target. Do you honestly believe I wrote something not just on par but in excess of what Piet did? My confrontation of Piet was not sanctimonious or based on some high standard. My standard was actually pretty low -- that people shouldn't be personally attacked for their work, for having an opinion or be intimidated to the point where they're afraid to express an opinion (and I have PMs, after this dialogue began from members stating as much). What I did was to speak up in hopes that I might be able to stop his insults and attacks from others or at least lessen them. My standard was and is: don't attack others personally. Feel free to harshly criticize things -- sample libraries, music, performances, composition, mixes, opinions, ideas, statements and thoughts -- but don't attack people, their professional abilities or create a hostile environment where people are concerned merely expressing a certain opinion will result in a personal attack against them, which was exactly the atmosphere that Piet created in that thread (and I've chatted with 4 group members who saw it that way). I don't believe such outrageous and purely mean-spirited behavior focused on personal attacks should ever be tolerated. Did I have indignation witnessing Piet berate others, absolutely. I find that behavior unacceptable and I hope that's not the community that VI Control wants to be. And to be clear, I find Piet to be a very talented artist who has enormous value to add to this community in terms of musical talent and knowledge, far beyond what I ever could (I am a mere amateur and former working musician here to learn more about orchestral compositions and arranging and to get insights on sample libraries). I sincerely hope that Piet's gifts and value to this community are not obfuscated by the kind of behavior witnessed in that thread. 

Okay, I hope we've all discussed that thread enough and learned what we can from it. To you and all at VI Control, Happy New Year.


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## voxhumana (Dec 31, 2013)

re-peat @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> _
> 
> [snip]
> I’ve written about 1650 posts here, 1500 of which contain carefully written, intelligent, well-informed, thoroughly researched, still very readworthy...
> ...


_

I've been here for nearly two years and have seen no evidence of the above. What I have seen is an extended series of highly offensive, highly unprofessional posts._


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## Theseus (Dec 31, 2013)

Dear Voxhumana,

You might then consider coming here more often. I've seen and read most of those posts Piet mentions. He's not exagerating a single bit. He's a crucial member here. One Vi-C would feel weaker without and their are very few of those.

He consistently provided his independant highly valuable advice and most of the times, it's gotten useful for the vast majority of us. Take for exemple Piano in blue from Cinesamples. If it wasn't for Piet arguing that the distortion of the tape recording was over the top and plain ugly, we would probably be left with it. Instead, the Mikes - though it took a bit of arguing - acknowledged he was right and printed to tape once again the whole shabbam. As an owner of Piano in blue, I'm extremely grateful he used his credentials to make that happen. And that's just one tiny exemple.

What does common good means around here? For me it means composers helping fellow composers to make the best out of the VI-C world. The wealth and well-doing of developpers, as friendly, professional and moral as they might be is the least of my concerns. There will always be developpers because we're willing to spend the cash. But there might not always be people with no financial stakes willing to help this community get better.

Try to think about it that way: is common good for vI-C members the well-being of libraries producers or the well-being of composers? If it's the former, then we should embrace stricter moderation to protect the developpers. If it's the latter, then we should be grateful to the members that help us the most by using their talent and experience to guide us through the wild world of virtual instruments.

Anyway, happy new year VI-C members !


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## germancomponist (Dec 31, 2013)

re-peat @ Tue Dec 31 said:


> People knock on my door for my “great ears” (those are not my words) and advice. And they all get a thoroughly considered, helpful reply in which I invariably invest plenty of thought, time and effort. ...



I was one of them who not only once asked Peat about his opinion and was/am very thankful for his help, for his very helpful replies!

I myself was already often harsh in my tone, and I have used my personally irony, which has caused here and there misunderstandings. What I can say is that I will try in the future to avoid it. 

0oD o-[][]-o


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## woodsdenis (Dec 31, 2013)

Theseus @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> Dear Voxhumana,
> 
> You might then consider coming here more often. I've seen and read most of those posts Piet mentions. He's not exagerating a single bit. He's a crucial member here. One Vi-C would feel weaker without and their are very few of those.
> 
> ...



He may or may not have done all the things you mention, quite frankly I don't care, he was called on his pathetic and bullying behavior in the KH thread which is indefensible IMO. I agree with with voxhumana in that the relatively short time I have been here, his posts have been "highly offensive, highly unprofessional"

I severely doubt that he has no redeeming features, that would be absurd, I have yet to see them though.

Happy New Year to all.


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## JE Martinsen (Dec 31, 2013)

eDrummist @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> JE. To respond to your question, your post accused me of bad behavior that exceeded that of re-peat: "stretching it a but (sic) further IMHO." I think most here would find having one's behavior compared, unfavorably, to a person who proudly acknowledges insulting others and being intentionally abusive, rude and crude is inflammatory, and, in this case, wildly inaccurate.



I should have dropped the "..perhaps even stretching it a but further IMHO" line, and not compared what you wrote to what Piet wrote. Obviously this got to you in a big way, and I can also understand it, so I apologize for that. Because no, I do not think what you wrote is worse than what Piet wrote in his comments.



eDrummist @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> Of course, I'm going to respond. You just responded to my citing your post. Claiming I was the one "spewing out a personal attack of (IMHO) the worst kind" when I was confronting a man engaged in incredible bullying, in fact, 7 years of targeting for harassment anyone who favorably mentions KHS libraries, is misleading.



Because you were, (maybe not if the worst kind, but bad enough) so in my subjective opinion that was not misleading. It was a correct observation. Again, in my humble opinion of course. And I stand by it.



eDrummist @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> Also, pulling out some quotes from me (quotes which, in their proper context, not your narrative, I don't find problematic) without the corresponding quotes from Piet I was responding to is extremely imbalanced, lacking accurate context (which you provided in the form of a highly subjective opinion of things, not in the form actual quotes).



I should have included Piet's comments, you're right.



eDrummist @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> You referred to me doing this as "sanctimonious" and "preaching," for what?



I think I gave the reason for that in my comment. But yes, I just can't help but think that is a bit odd when you just fired a couple of low shots yourself, and I'm referring to your "psychological evaluation".




eDrummist @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> Because I didn't want to sit idly by while a forum member brutally assaults not products (which is no big deal to me and I never confronted anyone over harsh words about a product), but the skills and abilities of others, even their artistic value as a human being? Harassing and bullying anyone who expresses an opinion he disagrees with?



I think you already know the quite obvious answer to that, because I choose to believe you don't think I'm neither stupid nor evil. So - no. I think that kind of behaviour is as wrong as you do. I know you read somewhere in my comment that I also think Piet's comments were way out of line.

"I have to admit my jaw dropped to the floor when I read re-peat's first comments in the KH Spotlight thread, well most of them in fact. He could have expressed his opinions in a far more civilized (or shall we say diplomatic?) manner than he did." 



eDrummist @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> But I believe that someone who cares about this community needs to speak up when they witness this kind of behavior even if they're not the target.



Of course! I couldn't agree more, eDrummist.



eDrummist @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> Do you honestly believe I wrote something not just on par but in excess of what Piet did?



As stated above, no. But just like you I have both the duty and the right to stand up and say "that was totally uncalled for" or the like, EVEN if the "bully" is the one addressed in the remark. I understand that you are a very fair and just person, eDrummist. That is at least my impression.

Let me tell you something. In the same way as you get hurt or just don't like being compared to Piet and his rather unique way of expressing himself - some may take offence from your OCD comment. Why? Well, figure it out.. OCD has generally very little to do with bad and hostile behaviour.

I have to say though, I think I have pretty thick skin. I don't get hurt or offended easily. If someone said to me directly that there's something wrong with my hearing or that I'm totally unmusical because I can't hear this and that - I'd just have a good laugh. The more fantastic and colorful the insults are, the better! :lol: 




eDrummist @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> Okay, I hope we've all discussed that thread enough and learned what we can from it. To you and all at KVR, Happy New Year.



Well ARE you ready to take a breathe-in now? :wink: I'm just joking, man! You can get back at me anytime if you want! I can take it! Can we all hug a little bit now?

Peace out, and HAPPY NEW YEAR! o-[][]-o

[Disclaimer : If anything I wrote here offends or hurts anyone's feelings, I apologize in advance.]


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## PavlovsCat (Dec 31, 2013)

@JE Martinsen Sure, a number of people tried to get me to quit making the megaposts, but now you've made the most compelling case of all, by giving me a taste of my own medicine and doing a post as long as one of my megaposts! :lol: 

Okay, I can feel my sense of humor coming back again. 

I mentioned it in a past post, but I'm not cruel enough to expect you to read it, but in the US, where I live, we often throw around the term OCD informally, not using it literally, to represent when someone is really obsessed with a certain behavior or a hobby (e.g,, someone saying "I have OCD with social media" because they spend a lot of time on Facebook and Twitter, but not meaning they literally have the actual condition), but you're absolutely right and honestly, your comment to me about this was an eye opener and I sincerely thank you for it. And I've had a friend with the illness and another friend with a son with the illness. So yes, this truth impacted me in a bigger way than just online posts and will cause me to not misuse that term online or offline. And my reference to having only one college course in psychology was sarcasm -- it was jokingly meant to communicate "I surely don't have the professional expertise to assess this, but I can clearly see this person has some problems" -- again, that wasn't stated as an attempt at amateur psychology, but because I prefaced my statement with that joke, which again, is apparently not translating culturally. But then you connected that remark to the mere descriptions of Piet's remarks/behavior as if I was doing a psychological analysis is surprising to me, as I was merely describing his remarks and behavior, significantly using the same terms he has used to describe his behavior, not using any psychological terms beyond the non-literally used OCD reference we've already mentioned. But except for the fact that two paragraphs earlier, I made the psychology class joke, there was no correlation and note that I didn't use any psychological terms beyond the OCD reference, I merely described his behavior using common English, for example, "You possess an incredibly overblown sense of self-importance and a constant habit of demeaning others' opinions...a lot of strong opinions, an ego that is out of control and venom against a developer." It's really the same kind of analysis you did of me in your two posts dissecting my post from the KHS thread. And I absolutely 100% agree with you that I didn't get everything right in my responses, even though I don't agree with all of your conclusions, which from seeing your explanations, I now realize are likely based on cultural nuances, especially when I employed humor. I certainly never intended to be making a case to hold myself up as some perfect example, my only objective was to try to get the bullying to stop, that's all. Nothing more. 

And btw, you're not going to be analyzing my future posts like this one going forward are you? 

Happy New Year to you too!!!


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## JE Martinsen (Dec 31, 2013)

eDrummist @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> @JE Martinsen Sure, a number of people tried to get me to quit making the megaposts, but now you've made the most compelling case of all, by giving me a taste of my own medicine and doing a post as long as one of my megaposts! :lol:


Haha! I didn't intend to, but yeah now that you mention it.. :lol: 



eDrummist @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> Okay, I can feel my sense of humor coming back again.
> 
> I mentioned it in a past post, but I'm not cruel enough to expect you to read it, but in the US, where I live, we often throw around the term OCD informally, not using it literally, to represent when someone is really obsessed with a certain behavior or a hobby (e.g,, someone saying "I have OCD with social media" because they spend a lot of time on Facebook and Twitter, but not meaning they literally have the actual condition), but you're absolutely right and honestly, your comment to me about this was an eye opener and I sincerely thank you for it. And I've had a friend with the illness and another friend with a son with the illness. So yes, this truth impacted me in a bigger way than just online posts and will cause me to not misuse that term online or offline.


For many people with the diagnose it can be a real struggle, but I know from my own experience that being able to focus on the positive sides of an otherwise exhausting situation can make things a whole lot better. (Which applies to most things in life of course. What on earth would become of us without our sense of humour?) I was addressing your comment from a more general viewpoint, and not personally. But yes, you are totally right.



eDrummist @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> And further, I absolutely agree with you that I didn't get everything right in my responses. It wasn't about holding myself up as some perfect example, it was just my attempt to get the bullying to stop, that's all.


I know, eDrummist! And I may have overreacted a bit. As mentioned earlier, my impression is that most of the members here are really decent good people. We're a colourful bunch of creative souls with wildly different backgrounds and personalities. There should be room for everyone as long as we have a good amount of respect for our fellow members. When I joined this forum not long ago, there were people whom I at first thought to be a little bit grumpy or harsh. Well, these are the same people I now couldn't imagine a V.I. Control without. And I'd much rather be part of a passionate community, with all the ups and downs that comes with it - than a place ridden by the fear of expressing the "wrong" opinion. Or even worse, a forum without humour! 



eDrummist @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> And btw, you're not going to be analyzing my future posts like this one going forward are you?


Not at all, I promise! :lol:


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## voxhumana (Jan 1, 2014)

Theseus @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> You might then consider coming here more often.



I'm here pretty much every day. Never for more than 5-10 minutes, as I have actual work to do. I rarely post as well. The appalling conduct which has been displayed is what motivated me - enough is enough.



Theseus @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> He's a crucial member here.



No-one is crucial to a forum such as this. From my observation there are actually quite a number of highly knowledgeable people here. However the rest of these people are also capable of conducting themselves in a professional manner.


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## Daryl (Jan 1, 2014)

voxhumana @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> Theseus @ Wed Jan 01 said:
> 
> 
> > He's a crucial member here.
> ...


Agreed.

D


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## Theseus (Jan 1, 2014)

Daryl, Voxhumana, you're of course both right. I should have said that he's an important contributor as far as I'm concerned, and nobody has to feel the same way. Just like I don't expect many people will agree with my liking of Chocotrax contributions!

But Piet was just a mean of getting to the point of the discussion (in my opinion), which I might very well re-peat (pun intended) here :

_"What does common good means around here? For me it means composers helping fellow composers to make the best out of the VI-C world. The wealth and well-doing of developpers, as friendly, professional and moral as they might be is the least of my concerns. There will always be developpers because we're willing to spend the cash. But there might not always be people with no financial stakes willing to help this community get better."_

I feel that's the real question at stakes here. Pretty much like in the real world where there's this constant struggle between different takes on common good (think companies against States for exemple, privacy matters, economic reforms for the well-being of corporations or for the people, etc.)


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 1, 2014)

The brilliant pianist and great guy, Mike Lang, posted this on his FB page, I lovei t.
"HAPPY NEW YEAR, everyone!

_Let's have a special year with unique attention paid to detoxifying conflicts, finding commonality in the human experience, and living in peace with mutual respect amongst us all."_


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 1, 2014)

AND another friend posted, which I need to remind myself:


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## muk (Jan 1, 2014)

Theseus @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> I feel that's the real question at stakes here. Pretty much like in the real world where there's this constant struggle between different takes on common good (think companies against States for exemple, privacy matters, economic reforms for the well-being of corporations or for the people, etc.)



What is really at stakes, in my opinion, is the contribution of the more sensitive forum members. In his recent posts Piet called me (not personally, but anybody who holds the point of view I do) a hypocritical wanker, a choirboy who contributes nothing, a whiner, and most probably iredeemably stupid.

Yes, I do take offense from that. And ok, it may not matter, because who am I. You may just write that off as collateral damage. But there are most certainly people here who are sensitive AND talented. And the kind of misbehaviour Piet fancies to show may not only make them leave the forum, but may also DISCOURAGE them heavily from making music. At least it would discourage me should Piet ever critizise one of my admittedly meaningless attemps at making music in his inimitable way. So, I personally would be grateful if the moderators would take steps against that kind of conduct. And I find it hard to believe that in the past it obviously went through unchallenged.
Would Piet have been the teacher of Brahms I'm certain Brahms wouldn't have written a single note thereafter. Ever. Not a likely scenario, but on a much smaller scale it might have happened here several times.
So, apart from just holding up an etiquette here, a "let's be all nice and kind", his forum persona CAN DO, and most probably has done damage to some, in my opinion. You just won't hear about it because the discouraged people are here no longer.

Personally I think what ever merits Piet may have they vanish completely behind the potential damage he is able to do with his unreflected (if they are not unreflected then they are simply mischievous), insulting comments.
I think this forum would greatly benefit from fresh air. Young musicians/composers willing to experiment, to take risks, cutting some old cherished habits on the way.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 1, 2014)

Actually, every thing Piet says about himself, positive and negative are true IMHO.

Piet is a bright, talented guy with a gift for analysis and a real knack for making things sound good. There are posts he has written that just dazzled me with their insight and made me reexamine certain of my preconceptions. When he chooses to be, he can be a constructive and wonderful teacher and critic.

But then there is the other Piet, whoI can only describe as prone to ugly behavior. Basically he is saying to us, "Take the good with the bad because you cannot have one without the other."

I don't believe it. Because he is of definite value does not mean he should be free to pursue a "scorched earth" policy when he deems it appropriate.

I DON'T want him banned. I DON'T want him gone. I DON'T want him to be prevented from saying in strong terms what he likes and does not like. I DO want him to be told in no uncertain terms that regarding certain language and degrees of disrespect to others, "sorry, but you may not."

If the moderators choose to do that and that is unacceptable to him and he leaves, yes, it will be a definite loss, but life is about tradeoffs.


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## PavlovsCat (Jan 1, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> Actually, every thing Piet says about himself, positive and negative are true IMHO.
> 
> Piet is a bright, talented guy with a gift for analysis and a real knack for making things sound good. There are posts he has written that just dazzled me with their insight and made me reexamine certain of my preconceptions. When he chooses to be, he can be a constructive and wonderful teacher and critic.
> 
> ...



I agree with everything Jay has written above. 

My sincere hope is this, that Piet remains a member of this community, but without the disrespect towards other members and developers. Because if you took away Piet's historically uncivil behavior, imo, the man would easily qualify as one of the most valuable members of VI Control.


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## Theseus (Jan 1, 2014)

Seriously, nobody was ever prevented to tell Piet is an ass, rightfully or not, so where's the probem? And don't tell me that all those anonymous users feel offended and threatened by his comments. You need to have a name (mine is Julien Alexandre and I'm nobody) to get offended or threatened.

Oh, and about the entitlement (yeah, I decided to make new friends this year obviously !!!): Piet has been a member here for almost 10 years, and always true to himself. Yet none of the moderators, including the chief of the camp Frederick, felt the need to tone him down or shut him up.

So the question is: what changed so much around here that a guy like Piet is now according to certain people the biggest problem of this community?

Oh, and Mike Greene, where are you? :mrgreen:


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## muk (Jan 1, 2014)

And if somebody attacks you with a gun on the street, you can shoot back. So where's the problem? (Man, was that remark even meant seriously, Theseus??)

Look, Piet is not a problem. His unreasonable, insulting outbursts are, for me. I've already seen enough self-righteous old men so full of themselves that they thought they could do with anybody whatever they wanted. And I stood against that where I could. Also I'm of the opinion him being here for ten years still doesn't give him the right to insult anybody.
But I acknowledge if most of the people take no issue with that (what seems to be the case), I'll step aside and let the community have it's way.


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## Theseus (Jan 1, 2014)

Muk, isn't the guns on the street slightly hyperbolic perhaps (tiny bit)?  I feel we could very well escalate all the way to the Godwin point by walking down this dangerous path.

We should now let the moderators get their way (Hannes rightfully started to edit some posts) with the matter and return to making music (or in my case trying to)!


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 1, 2014)

I do think we have argued this to death ( I know, I know, Larry) and it is probably time to let the mods do what they decide to do or not to do.


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## PavlovsCat (Jan 1, 2014)

I think, in all fairness and in fairness to Piet, we should acknowledge that the uncivil behavior and subsequent violations of VI Control's forum policy that we've been discussing are not, by any means, exclusive to Piet. 

There are a small, but very prolific number of other members in this community who serially engage in the same kind of behavior as Piet, yet do not make the same positive contributions to this community. Which leads me to, out of respect for Piet, desiring that we consider discussing uncivil behavior without exclusively attaching Piet's name to it as if he's the only one who has done this. 

The truth is, it took me 7 years of observing Piet's abusive behavior towards others before I finally decided I was willing to confront it and accept that it would certainly result in that hostility being redirected at me. But here's the thing that also kept me from speaking up, I knew from being a member here for several years that I would be facing attacks not only from Piet for calling out his bad behavior, but from others who regularly engage in the same kind of behavior as Piet, though not to the same degree, but close enough that it violates this forum's policies just the same and I hope will stop being tolerated. We come here to learn and to share and members who berate and behave in an uncivil manner towards other members impede our ability to learn; it is more than a distraction, it is simply not a conducive environment for knowledge sharing and open expression of opinions related to making music. It also results in creating an environment that is a less enjoyable place to discuss something that we all share in common that brings us so much joy, making music and increasing our ability to grow as musicians.


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## rJames (Jan 1, 2014)

voxhumana @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> ...as I have actual work to do.



:D I can see you're getting into the swing of things nicely though.


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## muk (Jan 1, 2014)

Theseus, obviously we have very different opinions on what we find dangerous. Of course that was a hyperbole. I took further many steps what you wrote about insulting other people. And no, that would not have led us down the path of Godwin's law.



Theseus @ Wed Jan 01 said:


> We should now let the moderators get their way (Hannes rightfully started to edit some posts) with the matter and return to making music (or in my case trying to)!



Yep, agree to this. So let's all start writing some music again.


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