# Forum Posting Guidelines



## Mike Greene (Jun 24, 2018)

There’s a YouTube video of James Corden doing a Carpool Karaoke with Paul McCartney. It’s one of the coolest things I’ve ever seen. (Yes, I cried, too.) The cynic in me joked to my wife that as cool as it is, I’ll bet _somebody_ out there gave it a thumbs down. Haha, right? Well, I shouldn’t have checked, because _4,000 people_ voted thumbs down. 4,000! That’s over one percent! Sure, maybe some people aren’t McCartney or Corden fans, but to actually go the trouble of clicking the Thumbs Down button? Who does that?

VI-Control is sometimes like that. Spitfire might post a “Buy One Get One Free” sale, or maybe about free LABS products, or their new charity thing. Stuff you would think is completely harmless and non-controversial. Posts where 99% of us will think, _“Cool. Maybe I’ll get something. Or maybe I won't.”_

But ... then there’s that 1% that feels they have to complain about some trivial point and then get into an argument about it, because heaven forbid we don’t _all_ have to hear every thought that pops into their mind. (In fact … what do you want to bet that somebody out there is reading this post right now and is thinking they should post their thoughts that the McCartney video isn’t that great?)

We need to stop that.

Critical posts are allowed on VI-C, of course, so the challenge is how to define which negative posts are helpful and which are not. Here's the thing, though: 99% of the membership here already knows the difference. They know it intuitively. That’s why we’ll often say the forum self-moderates. In fact, I’m hesitant to list a bunch of specific rules, because I don’t want “the 99%” to think they need to change anything, or start worrying about what they post. I want “the 99%” to keep doing exactly what they’re already doing. They make this forum the great place that it is and we don't want to change that.

So the real challenge here is getting the 1% to understand that this post is directed at them. Easier said than done, because unfortunately, people who are being jerks never think _they’re_ the one who is being a jerk. So I’m going to give a few examples which will hopefully help.

1. If people have you on “Ignore,” then we have a problem. No member should have to block or put someone on “Ignore” in order to make their forum visits pleasant.

2. If you’re the kind of person who posts complaints about Spitfire’s marketing, then you’re probably someone who enjoys complaining, rather than just skipping threads that don’t interest you. I’m not saying their campaigns aren’t sometimes annoying, mind you, but it’s only a certain type of person who feels the need to keep saying it.

3. If you think “free speech” includes the right to be annoying, then you misunderstand what “free speech” on VI-Control is about. “Free speech” on VI-Control is limited mostly just to the freedom to be critical (in a fair way) of sample libraries. Free speech in that context is helpful to the community, since we all want to know what hidden shortcomings there might be in a potential purchase. It most certainly does _not_ mean you have the right to trash companies, the forum, other members, or me.

4. Calling someone a “twat” is sometimes okay and sometimes it isn’t. Deal with it. 99% of the membership intuitively knows which is which and has zero problem with a certain “incident” last year. (Note that that post got around a hundred Likes, because most people thought it was appropriate.) If you’re the kind of person who is pissed off about that and sometimes brings up that incident as evidence that the forum is unfair, or biased towards celebrities, then you are in the 1%. I’m tired of seeing that complaint, so bring up that argument again at your own peril.

5. Since I’m on things I get tired of seeing over and over again, if you believe that I make forum decisions based on advertising dollars, then be advised that I consider that to be a personal insult. See this post. Consider this to also be a “post at your own peril” situation, even if you’re posting this accusation on another site.

6. If people see your posts and think, _“Ugh. This guy is still arguing the same point over and over,”_ then that’s a bad thing. I wish I could specify how many is too many, but there is no magic number. Plus, sometimes a debate is healthy and valuable for the rest of us to read. The key is self-awareness. If you’re arguing a point, first think about _“Do the other members here really want to read this? Or am I just trying to prove I’m right?” _ Believe me, it’s much better if you make that determination on your own, rather than moderators making it for you. 

7. If you’re writing something negative or controversial, wait a few minutes, or even hours, before posting. Reread, then ask yourself, _“Should I really post this?”_ FWIW, this is advice I often use in my own posts. I wrote the first draft of this post hours ago (while I was still mad that I have to spend my day on this), and believe me, it looked nothing like what you see here now.

8. Spitfire and VSL have specifically asked that we not moderate their threads and that we allow all posts, positive or negative. That’s fine, however there is a difference between fair criticism and someone who is simply being a jerk, so we are going to monitor these threads more closely (I’m now paying someone to do that) and deal with (ban) people who get out of hand. That started a couple weeks ago, someone has already been shown the door, and I think the forum is better because of it.

9. Recognize that the people who run the companies that you may be criticizing are human beings with their own emotions and egos. Even if only 10% of posts are negative, they still hurt. Again, VI-Control is a forum where we do want to be warned about library flaws, and developers do need to accept the fact that not every post will be a rave, but try to understand that the forum isn’t just about you and your needs.

I’m hoping people can recognize themselves in this and help us all out. If not, then our next step will be to ban offenders. (I banned two this morning.) Admittedly, that’s pretty harsh, but I have to do what I have to do. A couple friends advised that I instead do the whole email thing with warnings and explanations, but I know from experience that that just means more arguing. I don’t have time for that, and honestly, it's not worth spending so much of my time on such a small number of troublemakers. So I’m taking a Mister Spock approach - The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.


----------



## gyprock (Jun 24, 2018)

Maybe it's time to get to know yourself..


----------



## Steinmetzify (Jun 24, 2018)

Applause


----------



## Silence-is-Golden (Jun 24, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> A couple friends advised that I instead do the whole email thing with warnings and explanations, but I know from experience that that just means more arguing. I don’t have time for that, and honestly, I’m resenting the fact that I’m already spending so much of my time on such a small number of troublemakers. So I’m taking a Mister Spock approach - The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.


A healthy choice as far as I am concerned.
Make your life easier and ‘ban the hell out of them” .( =crude joke)
Seriously: the sooner the 1% gets the point the better off this forum will be, because lately it seems to become like an infection ( sorry to be so crude again) that over trivial things people start to argue.
And instead of becoming informed you need to skip most of a thread and then after reading what is worthwile you need to shrugg off the unpleasentness of how people treated each other.
Don’t we have enough of that in our lives already?

So: good luck with your spock approach and may our and your lives become happier because of it!


----------



## Jaap (Jun 24, 2018)

I always use this analogy, one day of rain can spoil a complete week of good weather. After 11 years and a fair amount of rain here, the overal weather report is that most of the days the sun is shining here 

Kudos to you Mike!


----------



## fiestared (Jun 25, 2018)

I think this video will resume your post... 



And thanks for the "Penny Lane" video, did you write "I cried too", I would say, impossible to don't...


----------



## funnybear (Jun 25, 2018)

Thanks Mike for investing your time in managing the 1% that are trolling the forum.

Not sure if this is technically possible with the XenForo forum software used on the site, but I like the concept of "down voting"/"disliking" forum posts and then having forum posts that are crossing a certain number of dislikes reduced in font size and opacity.

Also, if a user's posts are overall accumulating too many dislikes, posts would be automatically displayed in reduced font size and opacity as a default.

I have seen that in a few other places and it makes it easy to ignore/fl-over non-productive posts/users and allows the community to actively contribute in moderating the forum.


----------



## markleake (Jun 25, 2018)

Thanks Mike for making this decision. It is good to "codify" this kind of annoying behavior as being out-of-line.

That "Buy One Get One Free" thread in particular was a disaster. And it was a commercial thread too. I felt bad that the Spitfire team were treated so poorly by some people on this forum who wouldn't shut up. :(


----------



## Michel Simons (Jun 25, 2018)

markleake said:


> That "Buy One Get One Free" thread in particular was a disaster. And it was a commercial thread too. I felt bad that the Spitfire team were treated so poorly by some people on this forum who wouldn't shut up. :(



I am still waiting for my free copy of the Chamber Strings (SCS?) since I already bought the Chamber Strings EVO in the past.....

But seriously, people were either being rather naïve or just criticizing for the sake of it.

Anyway, a sensible post by Mike, although the cynic in me doubts whether the 1% recognize themselves in it and/or care about it.

It did make me wonder whether I am already on anybody's ignore list...


----------



## nulautre (Jun 25, 2018)




----------



## Michael Antrum (Jun 25, 2018)

My mother, God rest her soul, had a much shorter description for what you propose, Mike. Its called having good manners.

I wonder if it will catch on.... I do hope so.


----------



## MartinH. (Jun 25, 2018)

Sounds reasonable. 



Mike Greene said:


> 1. If people have you on “Ignore,” then we have a problem. No member should have to block or put someone on “Ignore” in order to make their forum visits pleasant.


FWIW on another forum I set everyone on ignore who I find myself _intensely _disagreeing with once, and use it as a reminder list to not get into arguments with those people, because we're just generally not on the same page and it seems like a waste of time. I do still read their posts, and sometimes even give 'em a "like", but I won't get into arguments with them. In that forum there's an extra button for "show content from ignored users", I don't know how it's implemented here. I'm still new here. 



Mike Greene said:


> 9. Recognize that the people who run the companies that you may be criticizing are human beings with their own emotions and egos. Even if only 10% of posts are negative, they still hurt.


The Reaper Forum seems to have set _all _member titles to "Human being with feelings". though I haven't read enough there to know if it made a difference.


----------



## robgb (Jun 25, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> 2. If you’re the kind of person who posts complaints about Spitfire’s marketing, then you’re probably someone who enjoys complaining, rather than just skipping threads that don’t interest you.


I'm guilty (although I'm not sure I actually enjoy complaining). Spitfire's marketing annoys the crap out of me and I agree that I need to learn to ignore them. Human nature is a funny thing. Spitfire, for reasons that are inexplicable to me, enjoys a very solid, very vocal fan base on this forum, to the point where that fan base started attacking a member of this forum because he dared to give an honest opinion about one of their products. This attack included members of the company. So, for that reason, it's very difficult for me not to complain about them. I will, however, in the spirit of camaraderie, refrain from further comments about them unless it's an honest opinion about their products that I've personally used. And I will avoid arguing about it. Sometimes it takes a slap in the face to wake me up. Thanks for that.


----------



## thov72 (Jun 25, 2018)

Finally Mike. FINALLY. thank you.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 25, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> Spitfire and VSL have specifically asked that we not moderate their threads and that we allow all posts, positive or negative



Of course these aren't the only companies run by people who see the big picture, but I sure hope people give them credit for taking the high road.


----------



## storyteller (Jun 25, 2018)

Thumbs up Mike.  I think we should also have a new @chillbot campaign. Something like..."Chillbot says Just Chill."... or however he wants to phrase it in classic Microsoft Paint style. Ha.


----------



## Geoff Grace (Jun 25, 2018)

_"O wad some Power the gift tae gie us, to see oursels as ithers see us!"_
- Robert Burns

Best,

Geoff


----------



## sinkd (Jun 25, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Of course these aren't the only companies run by people who see the big picture, but I sure hope people give them credit for taking the high road.


Hear! Hear!


----------



## sinkd (Jun 25, 2018)

Geoff Grace said:


> _"O wad some Power the gift tae gie us, to see oursels as ithers see us!"_
> - Robert Burns
> 
> Best,
> ...


Perfect! My mother loves this quote.
Slàinte!


----------



## thereus (Jun 25, 2018)

It’s not you. All the others are the 1%!


----------



## Brendon Williams (Jun 25, 2018)




----------



## NoamL (Jun 25, 2018)

I feel like time-outs (temp bans) are much better than permabans unless someone is REALLY acting in bad faith / trolling.

Just give people time to cool off... and realize it's just software...


----------



## Michael Antrum (Jun 25, 2018)

thereus said:


> It’s not you. All the others are the 1%!



I'd like to be in the 1%, as according to the news, they apparently have all the money.....


----------



## heisenberg (Jun 25, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> There’s a YouTube video of James Corden doing a Carpool Karaoke with Paul McCartney. It’s one of the coolest things I’ve ever seen. (Yes, I cried, too.)



That was incredible. Thanks for posting!


----------



## patrick76 (Jun 25, 2018)

I've just placed everyone in this thread and all those who have liked posts in this thread to "ignore".... I kid!! I kid!!! I've only placed myself on "ignore".


----------



## tmhuud (Jun 25, 2018)

I ignore myself all the time.


----------



## Garry (Jun 25, 2018)

heisenberg said:


> That was incredible. Thanks for posting!


I was born and raised 10 miles outside of Liverpool, but haven't been back in many years, but wow, this brought the spirit of the people of the North West of England flooding back! Thank you for posting Mike - this was really quite emotional for me to watch.


----------



## Zhao Shen (Jun 25, 2018)

Solid policy. Hopefully this censors baseless accusations but leaves negative opinions intact. Hope no one interprets this as discouraging criticism. Nothing wrong with being negative, the problem is being negative for reasons that have nothing to do with the library/topic at hand.


----------



## germancomponist (Jun 25, 2018)

So, as I read between the lines, I am allowed to make my jokes again, posting my german humor, irony and wit.
BTW: Great post, Mike!


----------



## Geoff Grace (Jun 25, 2018)

Zhao Shen said:


> Solid policy. Hopefully this censors baseless accusations but leaves negative opinions intact. Hope no one interprets this as discouraging criticism. Nothing wrong with being negative, the problem is being negative for reasons that have nothing to do with the library/topic at hand.


I get the impression that it goes one step further in that it also limits valid negative comments if the same points are voiced over and over again and beaten into the ground to the point that the poster is wearing out his/her welcome.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## Hannes_F (Jun 26, 2018)

Applause for a heroic effort, Mike!

Regarding the 1% this is my take: Everybody must have the right to be what he or she is, which includes they can be as stupid as they want if they wish so. However this is only valid within equal rights for everbody.

So if the 1% starts to dominate the conversation they breach the equal right for everybody and have to be paced. In my view this is within the responsibility of the forum owner (plus team if this applies).


----------



## nathantboler (Jun 26, 2018)

How much are you looking to sell the site for again?


----------



## Mike Greene (Jun 26, 2018)

NoamL said:


> I feel like time-outs (temp bans) are much better than permabans unless someone is REALLY acting in bad faith / trolling.
> 
> Just give people time to cool off... and realize it's just software...


For more normal stuff, I agree that timeouts are better. Even with the recent cases, we always have the ability to lift bans if/when cooler heads prevail later on. If someone makes the effort to contact me, I'll listen, and in a few cases, I'd be happy to hear from them. All I'm looking for is an end to the negativity.

A lot of these guys are pretty hopeless, though. In Phillips case, for instance, he wrote me an amusing email thanking me for banning him because he didn't like the forum anyway, plus Realivox Ladies sucks and sounds totally fake, plus everybody secretly hates me but I don't realize it because everyone's afraid to say it. (I'm not sure what this says about me, but I really did enjoy that email.  )


----------



## JEPA (Jun 26, 2018)

I think you have taken the right decision. I don't know you personally, but the way you solve problems give me the impression of a very equilibrated person. I want to thank you publicly for assuming this forum and having time to deal with it. I know it is now part of your "business" but a Forum so open like this has a very important social value also. Thanks again!


----------



## Polkasound (Jun 26, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> plus everybody secretly hates me but I don't realize it because everyone's afraid to say it



Darn it. We all tried to keep it a secret, but now that the cat's out of the bag, I might as well come clean. In fact, it's time we all come clean and reveal to Mike who we really are.

Mike, my name is not Tom. It's actually Schmudley Schmundersnott. I am the president of the Secret Society of Mike Green Haters on VI-Control. [Our logo and secret sub-forum is visible to everyone on VI-Control except forum administrators.] Active since 2017 and over 2,500 members strong, our main purpose is to engage in pleasant dialog with you so that you never suspect that we actually think you're the demon spawn of Satan.

Our secondary purpose is to purchase your libraries, enjoy them, use them on our projects, and compliment you on your hard work... all as a cover for secretly thinking the libraries suck and sound totally fake.

Our third goal is to secretly hate VI-C. Even though we love it and use it every day to freely exchange ideas and information with our fellow musicians and composers, and even though we wouldn't give it up for anything in the world, we actually secretly don't like this forum and would prefer to get banned.

Thanks a lot, Phillip, for blowing our cover.

At this time, I am asking all 2,500+ society members to please turn in your membership cards. (Those of you who are charter members may keep your laser-engraved pen sets.)

Sincerely,

Schmudley Schmundersnott
President - Secret Society of Mike Green Haters on VI-Control
Webmaster - http://www.mikegreenistheantichrist.com (www.mikegreenistheantichrist.com)


----------



## nordicguy (Jun 26, 2018)

Impatiently waiting for the VSTBuzz’s membership card promo.
In the mean time, wich Mike’s library is the funniest to hate?


----------



## Michel Simons (Jun 26, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> Darn it. We all tried to keep it a secret, but now that the cat's out of the bag, I might as well come clean. In fact, it's time we all come clean and reveal to Mike who we really are.
> 
> Mike, my name is not Tom. It's actually Schmudley Schmundersnott. I am the president of the Secret Society of Mike Green Haters on VI-Control. [Our logo and secret sub-forum is visible to everyone on VI-Control except forum administrators.] Active since 2017 and over 2,500 members strong, our main purpose is to engage in pleasant dialog with you so that you never suspect that we actually think you're the demon spawn of Satan.
> 
> ...



Hilarious. Or...is it actually true? And if so, why was I never invited? I feel left out...


----------



## Ashermusic (Jun 27, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> Darn it. We all tried to keep it a secret, but now that the cat's out of the bag, I might as well come clean. In fact, it's time we all come clean and reveal to Mike who we really are.
> 
> Mike, my name is not Tom. It's actually Schmudley Schmundersnott. I am the president of the Secret Society of Mike Green Haters on VI-Control. [Our logo and secret sub-forum is visible to everyone on VI-Control except forum administrators.] Active since 2017 and over 2,500 members strong, our main purpose is to engage in pleasant dialog with you so that you never suspect that we actually think you're the demon spawn of Satan.
> 
> ...




It doesn't matter. Use an accordion, go to jail, that's the law.


----------



## Ben H (Jun 27, 2018)

I tend to just mute the toxic posters and the ones with a personal vendetta anyway.


----------



## TheUnfinished (Jul 1, 2018)

Wise words Mike. 

If you need to ask yourself the question: "Am making useful critical comments here or maintaining a vendetta?" You're probably maintaining a vendetta.


----------



## Fredeke (Feb 4, 2019)

funnybear said:


> Thanks Mike for investing your time in managing the 1% that are trolling the forum.
> 
> Not sure if this is technically possible with the XenForo forum software used on the site, but I like the concept of "down voting"/"disliking" forum posts and then having forum posts that are crossing a certain number of dislikes reduced in font size and opacity.
> 
> ...



The 1% could use this in a perverted way .

Seriously though, this could be a slippery slope. The internet has taught us there is such a thing as mob trials. As an illustration, see The Orville's season 1 episode "Majority Rule" (a great series if you don't know it yet)


----------



## pderbidge (Feb 8, 2019)

Fredeke said:


> The 1% could use this in a perverted way .
> 
> Seriously though, this could be a slippery slope. The internet has taught us there is such a thing as mob trials. As an illustration, see The Orville's season 1 episode "Majority Rule" (a great series if you don't know it yet)


I agree, mob rule is unfortunately a very real and unfortunate thing so it's best not to go down that road.

Although I agree with Mike's intentions and sentiments I'll be hopeful yet cautious at the same time as I watch how this develops. I'm never a huge fan of censoring people. Nevertheless all the negativity can certainly ruin things for an otherwise great place so it has to be dealt with somehow, I'm just saying it's a tough balance that I, thankfully, don't have to deal with. 

If one needs a place to spout off whatever obscenities they so desire to get off their chest then you may be interested to know of a company I saw a news report on just a few years ago. They take phone calls (for a fee of course) where you can call in tell the person off in any way you like, no joke. I could look it up for you, they might still be in business

PS: I'll try and be more aware of what I have to say and think before posting because as Mike said, none of us ever think we are the problem and I don't want to be high and mighty thinking I'm the perfect child around here.


----------



## Pudge (Feb 27, 2019)

Some type of conduct system could work where users get 5 flag points a month and use them to flag spam, trolling or flaming posts. Then at the end of each month, if someone has accumulated a couple flaged posts they get put on the naughty list, if they accumulate a lot of flagged posts then they get a temporary ban. If they get 3 temporary bans over the course of a year, they get permaband.


----------



## dgburns (Feb 27, 2019)

You're a good guy Mike


----------



## Frederick Russ (Mar 19, 2019)

Mike Greene said:


> There’s a YouTube video of James Corden doing a Carpool Karaoke with Paul McCartney. It’s one of the coolest things I’ve ever seen. (Yes, I cried, too.) The cynic in me joked to my wife that as cool as it is, I’ll bet _somebody_ out there gave it a thumbs down. Haha, right? Well, I shouldn’t have checked, because _4,000 people_ voted thumbs down. 4,000! That’s over one percent! Sure, maybe some people aren’t McCartney or Corden fans, but to actually go the trouble of clicking the Thumbs Down button? Who does that?
> 
> VI-Control is sometimes like that. Spitfire might post a “Buy One Get One Free” sale, or maybe about free LABS products, or their new charity thing. Stuff you would think is completely harmless and non-controversial. Posts where 99% of us will think, _“Cool. Maybe I’ll get something. Or maybe I won't.”_
> 
> ...



Brilliant! Hey Mike, long time. Just ducking in here to say: this is fantastic. Looks like the future of VI Control is in really good hands. I've been passionate about VI-C since it began in 2004. When we first met, in that rather cool studio you have in Hollywood (probably in 2006-07?), I thought even way back then that you would be a great succeeder as an admin for VI.

As for me, I'm enjoying my retirement. Life is good! And so are all of you. Just here to send a little love to Maestro Mike Greene and to this beautiful, awesomely messy, glorious community and composer family the kids all built together back in 2004.

So proud of you, Mike. And the how you kept things glued together with duct tape and digital superglue. It really is the best composer community in the world. Long Live VI!


----------



## chimuelo (Mar 19, 2019)

And thanks to you Russ for leaving it in such good hands and making this a fantastic learning place.

Glad to see youre enjoying retirement.
Thanks Again.


----------



## Frederick Russ (Mar 20, 2019)

chimuelo said:


> And thanks to you Russ for leaving it in such good hands and making this a fantastic learning place.
> 
> Glad to see youre enjoying retirement.
> Thanks Again.


Wow, long time! Thank you Chimuelo for being part of it.


----------

