# Rhapsody in blue with gpo4



## germancomponist

If you think about the cost of this library, it is not bad at all. I began orchestra writing with the old GPO, but this new GPO4 now is a greaaaat tool, and not only for beginners! 

Listen to RHAPSODY IN BLUE with GPO4, done by DPDAN (Dan Kury).

http://www.dankury.com/music/RhapsodyinBlueDanKury.mp3


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## nikolas

Gunther, you posted the QT video, not the mp3.

I agree that given the price this is a brilliant tool!


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## lux

i'm not sure i get what happens on screen of this video. Is there a page where features are shown?


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## germancomponist

lux @ Wed Jul 29 said:


> i'm not sure i get what happens on screen of this video. Is there a page where features are shown?



Their website is still of and will come back today I think. What I know is that there is some Sam brass inside... .

Nikolas, sorry for the mov link.

The mp3 is still here: http://www.dankury.com/music/RhapsodyinBlueDanKury.mp3


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## IvanP

Nice mockup, Dan!

Seems like there are some improvements. Brass is definitely better and so are the WWs.

How much did you had to tweak the solo clarinet bendings in order to get it right?

I also noticed the string section bending in the B theme, after the solo violin comes in...

Is that a midi trick o do u get string slides with the new player?

Thks in advance, 

Iván


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## germancomponist

Ivan,

Dan wrote in the other forum: 

"Everything was recorded using GPO4 except the following instruments...
from JABB, one Clarinet, three saxes, and a few trumpets,
one Stradivari solo violin,
Garritan Steinway Grand Piano"


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## re-peat

Really, there should be a law against these sort of abominations. This is just horrible. It makes me wish that there was life after death so that all these dead composers could come back from wherever it is they pass their afterlife, to slap those who are responsible for this kind of awful mock-ups in the face and take their computers away.

_


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## lux

haha, apocalyptic... :D


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## NYC Composer

re-peat @ Wed Jul 29 said:


> Really, there should be a law against these sort of abominations. This is just horrible. It makes me wish that there was life after death so that all these dead composers could come back from wherever it is they pass their afterlife, to slap those who are responsible for this kind of awful mock-ups in the face and take their computers away.
> 
> _



Not one of my favorite mockups, but seriously, I wish you would let your feelings out rather than burying them inside where they will fester and cause stress-related health problems.

Alternatively, you could shoot small insects with a bazooka. I hear that's cathartic.


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## Stevie

yay, sorry to say, but who cares in the times of LASS???


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## choc0thrax

I've never even heard of GPO4. Was there a GPO 2 and 3 at some point?


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## tobyond

Would someone give DPDAN a decent library for once.


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## germancomponist

tobyond @ Thu Jul 30 said:


> Would someone give DPDAN a decent library for once.



Here is a video what I found this morning at another forum where he shows how he did the portamento. Great trick. 

http://www.dankury.com/tutorials/Gershwinportamenti.mov


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## mathis

re-peat @ Wed Jul 29 said:


> Really, there should be a law against these sort of abominations. This is just horrible. It makes me wish that there was life after death so that all these dead composers could come back from wherever it is they pass their afterlife, to slap those who are responsible for this kind of awful mock-ups in the face and take their computers away.
> 
> _



+1


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## lux

choc0thrax @ Wed Jul 29 said:


> I've never even heard of GPO4. Was there a GPO 2 and 3 at some point?



this actual avatar image is uhm


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## dcoscina

nikolas @ Tue Jul 28 said:


> Gunther, you posted the QT video, not the mp3.
> 
> I agree that given the price this is a brilliant tool!



I'm inclined to agree. The inclusion of SAM brass was a very good move for Gary because his previous brass were very anemic sounding. 

For $150 this is a nice entry into the world of orchestral sampling. It's totally not fair to compare it to LASS or Symphobia or VSL or EWQLSO as all their price points are much higher. I would say HALion Symphony Orchestra is better mind you and that comes bundled with Cubase 5 with a very cheap upgrade path to a full license but it does not have piano or harp.


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## IvanP

dcoscina @ Thu Jul 30 said:


> For $150 this is a nice entry into the world of orchestral sampling. It's totally not fair to compare it to LASS or Symphobia or VSL or EWQLSO as all their price points are much higher.



+1.

My opinion is based on the ability of the mockupist to create a sonic idea of the final result with ease and spped. 

If this tool is affordable and it can deliver that quality in no time and with little midi effort on a single, tiny computer or laptop, its is for sure a winner since that's the niche it should be intented to be aimed at...

If, on the contrary, it takes as much time as with another more advanced library and / or it needs a fast computer to perform, one should really consider other alternatives.

But since I bought GPO a few years ago, when it was aimed for that, I'd like to think that it is being enhanced on that spot.

If that's the GPOA it should stand up to the A-list libraries, well, in that case I'd understand the "forge' abou' it" attitude. 
Otherwise opinions like some of the above are just forum trolling to me.

And no, I'm not affiliated in any sort to Larritan corp.


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## dcoscina

I do some composing on my Macbook and I could see the value of this library for such a thing. I personally think the violin sounds good (for the under $100 price point) and the brass are Project SAM which always sound awesome. I hear that it works well with notation libs like Finale and, once again, when I'm composing on laptop, using EWQLSO, even Silver tends to freak it out because I have a 2 gig max on the ram. 'Tis a good week for libraries. My LASS is ready for pick up at Fed Ex which is where I'm off to next.


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## lux

i see Ivan's point of view as I'm also one that would love having good sketches in no time.

I however found in this example many of the traditional issues with Gpo, like the unrealistic attitude of the brass just to tell one. But there is a good bunch of problems other than those.

That said, usually almost none tries to mockup stuff like the Rhapsody for the evident difficulties involved in mimicking the mixture of jazz and full symphonic Gershwin offers, using samples. So, at least some understanding could make its way trough this thread for the mockuper.

of course is assumed that every comparison between a mass targeted sketch library and the recent dedicated terabytes libraries sounds as dull as it gets, at least to me.

Again, for about the fourth time, i report here my usual concern about the absence of recent and good all in one libraries able to pull off complex orchestrations, perhaps classic orchestrations, with a minimal attention to technicalities.

Its such a crystal clear fact to me that 98% of the composers for digital orchestra use a ridicolous amount of staves to avoid messin up with too complicated lilbraries. Its just a fact.

Luca


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## dcoscina

I think I will pick this up for my Macbook.


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## Pedro Camacho

This really sounds EXTREMELY horrible.


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## lux

this thread is becoming even more charming. I'm impressed.


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## Guy Bacos

This piece is a HUGE challenge for ANY library, it might of been a bit daring to tackle the entire work with just Garritan lib. But one thing is for sure, NOBODY could of done better than Dan using this lib. Just a bit too ambitious.


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## dcoscina

Guys, some of you are not only being harsh but disrespectful. I have heard things on this forum that people lauded up and down that I did not feel were as realistic as they could be but I kept a held tongue in respect for the hard work the person went through to do it. 

If you cannot say something constructive, perhaps it's best to not say anything at all. 

I just ordered it (expensive week between LASS and this but worth it!) because I think it could be useful on the road. Also, my sense is that a lot of GPO users actually get their music performed by real orchestras so sonic quality ain't the first priority. Listen to what esteemed concert composer John Adams uses for his mock ups- still general MIDI or the GPO bundled sounds with Sibelius. 

Obviously I won't be using this for film scores that I cannot use a real group on but as a compositional tool, it will have its place in my arsenal.

Honestly, I think sometimes some people on this forum are too concerned with the superficialities of music technology and forget about the actual music. Sorry, but I think this is true...for some.


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## Guy Bacos

I will go ahead and say it. I think some people on this thread have NO class despite how good they are. This is not Carnegie Hall, please! It's just a public forum where people hope to get constructive feedback, not destructive feedback. And I think it's a big lack of respect for someone with the credentials and achievements of Dan.


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## choc0thrax

I concur, I was aghast at the replies in this thread. I decided to ask a question about GPO in the hope of changing the subject. I was forced to change my avatar to the image of Glenn Beck- my personal hero who guides me through dark times.


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## germancomponist

Pedro Camacho @ Thu Jul 30 said:


> This really sounds EXTREMELY horrible.



I would like to listen to a version of this great piece what you did! Perhaps you can post a piece in this composers liga?

I did radio commercials for years with also GPO 1 and there was never any problem with the companies who payed me. :-D

Best,

Gunther


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## dcoscina

choc0thrax @ Thu Jul 30 said:


> I concur, I was aghast at the replies in this thread. I decided to ask a question about GPO in the hope of changing the subject. I was forced to change my avatar to the image of Glenn Beck- my personal hero who guides me through dark times.



you're awesome choco! =o 

OT- hope you enjoy the TIFF


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## dcoscina

Guy Bacos @ Thu Jul 30 said:


> I will go ahead and say it. I think some people on this thread have NO class despite how good they are. This is not Carnegie Hall, please! It's just a public forum where people hope to get constructive feedback, not destructive feedback. And I think it's a big lack of respect for someone with the credentials and achievements of Dan.



Thanks for adding Guy. As you and I both know, doing mock-ups of well known existing pieces is extremely hard. I have heard earnest tries even on some terrific libraries like VSL or EWQLSO that fell short of the mark because I was so accustomed to the orchestral versions. 

I personally really enjoyed Dan's description of how to apply portamento to the strings and brass on DP6. I wondered how he achieved such a convincing sound until I re-watched it again and realized he was using time stretch in the audio editor as opposed to the MIDI editor. Brilliant! And frankly, regardless of the library, I thought it sounded GOOD!


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## Przemek K.

My my what a hot topic 8) 

Considering the fact that this composition is a difficult one to mockup 
and putting aside that it was rendered with GPO, it's well done.

Sure, when different libs were used for the strings, woodwinds, brass and percussion
it would sound better. I think that the piano part was the best part of this mockup.
It had a quite nice tone to it although on a few occasions the repetition was a dead giveaway. But hey, it was done with samples, right.


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## nikolas

I still can't understand how some people judge things. There is absolutely no comparison between a 1 GB library and one that is 40 GB! One that costs $150 and includes all the orchestra and one that costs $999 and only has strings... 

I mean it's apples and airoplanes!

I'm actually very glad that a low priced library can do this. This is more than enough for the classic performers and orchestras that I work with. They don't need fancy stuff, they just need an idea. And GPO is more than perfect for that! 

Everything in it's place. Humility is an asset as is speaking ones mind.


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## Hal

choc0thrax @ Wed Jul 29 said:


> I've never even heard of GPO4. Was there a GPO 2 and 3 at some point?



neither did i !?

clarinet and brass and piano sound great every thing else is..mmm


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## Ashermusic

I wish that there was an emoticon for slowly shaking my head and softly laughing. Many people here cannot see the forest for the trees


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## dcoscina

Realistically if GPO4 sounded as good as LASS or Symphobia or whatever, then Garitan would be charging a lot more. Simply matter of economics.


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## re-peat

As far as I’m concerned, this was never about GPO (I don’t doubt that it can be a very useful and creative tool), my point is that some people keep shamelessly throwing these monstrosities onto the world, uninhibited by any sense of decency or respect for good music. This Kuryfied Rhapsody is a truly abysmal incarnation of what is a glorious piece of music. Presenting it, with a depraved sense of achievement, to the public in this mutilated and violated shape − cause that is what this is − is something that I consider pretty offensive. And again, the fact that it’s done with Garritan libraries is completely irrelevant. I would say precisely the same thiò'–   ªë'–   ªë'–   ªë'–   ªë'–   ªë'–   ªë'–   ªë'–   ªë '–   ªë!'–   ªë"'–   ªë#'–   ªë$'–   ªë%'–   ªë&'–   ªë''–   ªë('–   ªë)'–   ªë*'–   ªë+'–   ªë,'–   ªë-'–   ªë.'–   ªë/'–   ªë0'–   ªë1'–   ªë2'–   ªë3'–   ªë4'–   ªë5'–   ªë6'–   ªë7'–   ªë8'–   ªë9'–   ªë:'–   ªë;'–   ªë<'–   ªë='–   ªë>'–   ªë?'–   ªë@'–   ªëA'–   ªëB'–   ªëC'–   ªëD'–   ªëE'—   ªëF'—   ªëG'—   ªëH'—   ªëI'—   ªëJ'—   ªëK'—   ªëL'—   ªëM'—   ªëN'—   ªëO'—   ªëP'—   ªëQ'—   ªëR'—   ªëS'—   ªëT'—   ªëU'—   ªëV'—   ªëW'˜   ªëX'˜   ªëY'˜   ªëZ'˜   ªë['˜   ªë\'˜   ªë]'˜   ªë^'˜   ªë_'˜   ªë`'˜   ªëa'˜   ªëb'˜   ªë


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## PolarBear

Ashermusic @ Thu Jul 30 said:


> While it is possible to have too little reverence for them it is also possible to have too much. Many here suffer from the former, you suffer from the latter IMHO.


And only those who see the holy grail don't suffer at all. :D


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## lux

btw, am i the only one who tries to get the pill before writing?

i know sometimes it just doesnt work but i often feel there are a few people here who take things so seriously and with a certain punctuality raise the bar of the discussion.

Its more or less like living a personal life where one speaks dozen of fuck this, fuck that just because thats what he really thinks. I mean, who cares about what all people really think. 

i love my fake and social part, it makes me a better person i think.


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## Guy Bacos

My only concern on this thread is that it can be hurtful for some.


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## NYC Composer

I look at forests and trees and see lumber.

When life hands me lemons, I make Koolaid and force other to drink it for spiritual growth.

Moving on:

The absolute and utter rudeness of people these days continues to amaze me. The lack of common decency, much less civility, is a trend that disconcerts me . It's hard enough to make a living in the music business without your work being trashed by people in what should be a supportive, constructive forum. Some slapping is definitely required, but perhaps it should have occurred during childhood and applied to those who seek to inflict verbal damage, so to foster a sense of respect for others.

I guess being a good composer doesn't necessitate being a good human being.


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## DPDAN

Boy am I glad I visited VI today. What a lovely place some of you make it. :roll: 

With posts like I read earlier, how do any of you benefit from this forum in any way, when useless creatures like a few act like they do? What a useless waste of skin.

To those who understand the purpose of using GPO to make this "mock-up", and for saying a few nice words, thank you. 

To the turd who is wishing for life after death, you'll get yours, we all do eventually. How stupid it was of you to take time out of your precious creative day to listen to this piece of music when you knew ahead of time it was... 
mutilated, 
violated, 
raped, 
perverse,
offensive, 
a truly abysmal incarnation, 
monstrosities onto the world,
painfully amateuristic Kury turd, 

whatever,,, have a nice day, 
and may the flies of a thousand camels infest your armpits!


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## re-peat

Polar,
Luca,

Actually, my anger originates from the exact opposite sentiments as where you think it's coming from. I don't mind people messing with the classics at all, absolutely not, I only mind when it happens without any sense of creativity or adventure.
Believe me, I would enthusiastically welcome (and be profoundly interested in) a version of the Rhapsody or the Sacre (or whatever), entirely done with samples and virtual instruments, PROVIDED it was conceived and constructed from the ground up with that specific instrumentarium in mind. At least, that would show some real creativity, courage and musical personality. It wouldn't even have to be a musical success, I wouldn't mind, I would still rate the effort MUCH higher than any mock-up.

I certainly don't advocate leaving great music in a frozen museum-esque state, I do object however to all these unimaginative and horrible "Look, Ma, with samples!"-fabrications which are invariably nothing more than dreadful sounding shadows of a proper interpretation. Or, like I said: mutilated music.

What I mind most, I think, is the creative lazyness of mock-ups, combined with the utterly arrogant assumption that there's any intrinsic musical merit to this practice.

Seriously, if ever someone should have the vision, courage and confidence (and hopefully, the talent) to re-think great pieces of music for samples, synths and virtual instruments, instead of cowardly cooking up yet another awfully sounding and uninspired mock-up, I would be the very first to offer my sincerest and most enthusiastic appreciation. I really would.

Until then however, I firmly stand by every single word I wrote.

_


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## PolarBear

re-peat, how can you dare to listen to anything recorded through speakers when the compositions were clearly intended to be performed by real instruments in a real concert hall. Please think your statements through all instances...


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## lux

re-peat @ Thu Jul 30 said:


> Polar,
> Luca,
> 
> Actually, my anger originates from the exact opposite sentiments as where you think it's coming from. I don't mind people messing with the classics at all, absolutely not, I only mind when it happens without any sense of creativity or adventure.
> Believe me, I would enthusiastically welcome (and be profoundly interested in) a version of the Rhapsody or the Sacre (or whatever), entirely done with samples and virtual instruments, PROVIDED it was conceived and constructed from the ground up with that specific instrumentarium in mind. At least, that would show some real creativity, courage and musical personality. It wouldn't even have to be a musical success, I wouldn't mind, I would still rate the effort MUCH higher than any mock-up.
> 
> I certainly don't advocate leaving great music in a frozen museum-esque state, I do object however to all these unimaginative and horrible "Look, Ma, with samples!"-fabrications which are invariably nothing more than dreadful sounding shadows of a proper interpretation. Or, like I said: mutilated music.
> 
> What I mind most, I think, is the creative lazyness of mock-ups, combined with the utterly arrogant assumption that there's any intrinsic musical merit to this practice.
> 
> Seriously, if ever someone should the vision, courage and confidence (and hopefully, the talent) to re-think great pieces of music for samples, synths and virtual instruments, instead of cowardly cooking up yet another awfully sounding and uninspired mock-up, I would be the very first to offer my sincerest and most enthusiastic appreciation. I really would.
> 
> Until then however, I firmly stand by every single word I wrote.
> 
> _



it still appears clear to me that you have been undoubtely unmannered and that most of your explaination has an objectionable direction, not necessarely wrong but higly objectionable. 

It would be nothing wrong if not for the fact you use the above explaination as your iron steel authorization key for an unpolite approach. Something that for matters of personal education i dont feel empathic with, sorry.

Luca


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## Ashermusic

NYC Composer @ Thu Jul 30 said:


> I look at forests and trees and see lumber.
> 
> When life hands me lemons, I make Koolaid and force other to drink it for spiritual growth.
> 
> Moving on:
> 
> The absolute and utter rudeness of people these days continues to amaze me. The lack of common decency, much less civility, is a trend that disconcerts me . It's hard enough to make a living in the music business without your work being trashed by people in what should be a supportive, constructive forum. Some slapping is definitely required, but perhaps it should have occurred during childhood and applied to those who seek to inflict verbal damage, so to foster a sense of respect for others.
> 
> I guess being a good composer doesn't necessitate being a good human being.



Larry, I have had my share of disagreements with Piet, some quite heated, but he is IMHO a good human being. After one of our dust ups, he wrote me privately to say how much he respected me and how badly he felt that we were having hostile exchanges, but just could not see how I could like what I liked, since it was so apparent to him that it was substandard.

He is a very passionate person with strong feelings about music but he over-reacts and lacks the ability to be measured in his words and deeds so he goes overboard. 

I think he could do with some good therapy but I do not believe him to be a bad person.


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## Leandro Gardini

I think the author of the mockup did a great job with the limitation of the library used, and most of you don´t seem to see it!!!
What???You have to write specifically for sample to get realism???
It must be a joke :? !!!


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## synergy543

NYC Composer @ Thu Jul 30 said:


> The absolute and utter rudeness of people these days continues to amaze me. The lack of common decency, much less civility, is a trend that disconcerts me . It's hard enough to make a living in the music business without your work being trashed by people in what should be a supportive, constructive forum. Some slapping is definitely required, but perhaps it should have occurred during childhood and applied to those who seek to inflict verbal damage, so to foster a sense of respect for others.


+10

This forum used to be a very rare spot on the internet where members, with very limited moderation or rules, followed the motto of composers helping other composers. This open freedom led to spirited and lively discussions that were genuinely positive and supportive - even criticism can be positive. It was a great learning atmosphere. Its sad to think that those days might be gone.

It doesn't take many flies to "decompose", what otherwise would be, a delicious soup.


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## Ashermusic

leogardini @ Thu Jul 30 said:


> I think the author of the mockup did a great job with the limitation of the library used, and most of you don´t seem to see it!!!
> What???You have to write specifically for sample to get realism???
> It must be a joke :? !!!



What is a joke is the idea that one can get anywhere even close to the "realism" of an orchestra full of great musicians with samples. It is the difference between watching Catherine Zeta-Jones having sex in a movie and having her in your bed.


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## PolarBear

Asher, are you trying to defend your remarks against Piet here? Or why the 3rd person reply to another guys not directly related post?


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## Ashermusic

PolarBear @ Thu Jul 30 said:


> Asher, are you trying to defend your remarks against Piet here? Or why the 3rd person reply to another guys not directly related post?



Because I suggested that writing original pieces for samples was a more valid test of libraries than mocking up existing classic work, and I took Leogradini's remark as challenging that. Which is his perfect right, of course.


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## PolarBear

Leo = Piet for you?


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## NYC Composer

Ashermusic @ Thu Jul 30 said:


> NYC Composer @ Thu Jul 30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I look at forests and trees and see lumber.
> 
> When life hands me lemons, I make Koolaid and force other to drink it for spiritual growth.
> 
> Moving on:
> 
> The absolute and utter rudeness of people these days continues to amaze me. The lack of common decency, much less civility, is a trend that disconcerts me . It's hard enough to make a living in the music business without your work being trashed by people in what should be a supportive, constructive forum. Some slapping is definitely required, but perhaps it should have occurred during childhood and applied to those who seek to inflict verbal damage, so to foster a sense of respect for others.
> 
> I guess being a good composer doesn't necessitate being a good human being.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Larry, I have had my share of disagreements with Piet, some quite heated, but he is IMHO a good human being. After one of our dust ups, he wrote me privately to say how much he respected me and how badly he felt that we were having hostile exchanges, but just could not see how I could like what I liked, since it was so apparent to him that it was substandard.
> 
> He is a very passionate person with strong feelings about music but he over-reacts and lacks the ability to be measured in his words and deeds so he goes overboard.
> 
> I think he could do with some good therapy but I do not believe him to be a bad person.
Click to expand...


My only experience of the person you know are the words I read here. If they are representational, he has a lot of personal work to do.

Passion and strong feelings don't ever necessitate trashing some else's work publicly. He was quite clear. I don't give a crap what sort of musician or composer or keeper of the flame he is, he acted like an ass and should apologize to Dan as publicly as he trashed him, but instead he 'stands by every word'.

Actually, he should apologize to the whole class and be forced to stay late and clean the erasers.

We can all be acerbic and witty, but usually there's a wink/nudge that accompanies the barbs. His were merely malevolent, imo.

.


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## Ashermusic

PolarBear @ Thu Jul 30 said:


> Leo = Piet for you?



No, not at all. We just disagree.


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## Ashermusic

NYC Composer @ Thu Jul 30 said:


> Ashermusic @ Thu Jul 30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYC Composer @ Thu Jul 30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I look at forests and trees and see lumber.
> 
> When life hands me lemons, I make Koolaid and force other to drink it for spiritual growth.
> 
> Moving on:
> 
> The absolute and utter rudeness of people these days continues to amaze me. The lack of common decency, much less civility, is a trend that disconcerts me . It's hard enough to make a living in the music business without your work being trashed by people in what should be a supportive, constructive forum. Some slapping is definitely required, but perhaps it should have occurred during childhood and applied to those who seek to inflict verbal damage, so to foster a sense of respect for others.
> 
> I guess being a good composer doesn't necessitate being a good human being.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Larry, I have had my share of disagreements with Piet, some quite heated, but he is IMHO a good human being. After one of our dust ups, he wrote me privately to say how much he respected me and how badly he felt that we were having hostile exchanges, but just could not see how I could like what I liked, since it was so apparent to him that it was substandard.
> 
> He is a very passionate person with strong feelings about music but he over-reacts and lacks the ability to be measured in his words and deeds so he goes overboard.
> 
> I think he could do with some good therapy but I do not believe him to be a bad person.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My only experience of the person you know are the words I read here. If they are representational, he has a lot of personal work to do.
> 
> Passion and strong feelings don't ever necessitate trashing some else's work publicly. He was quite clear. I don't give a crap what sort of musician or composer or keeper of the flame he is, he acted like an ass and should apologize to Dan as publicly as he trashed him, but instead he 'stands by every word'.
> 
> Actually, he should apologize to the whole class and be forced to stay late and clean the erasers.
> 
> We can all be acerbic and witty, but usually there's a wink/nudge that accompanies the barbs. His were merely malevolent, imo.
> 
> .
Click to expand...


Oh, no mistake about it, Piet IS an ass, just not a bad human being.

Oh-oh, I fear that some here are thinking that is frequently true of me also


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## re-peat

leogardini @ Thu Jul 30 said:


> I think the author of the mockup did a great job with the limitation of the library used.



I don't doubt for a second that that is true, but still: all I hear is a ghastly version of the 'Rhapsody in Blue'. Now, all of you polite and considerate good human beings, tell me: how am I supposed to react to a ghastly version of the Rhapsody? What am I supposed to say to a person turning in a version of the Rhapsody, robbing the work of a good deal of its magic, messing with its colours, destroying its dynamics, disrespecting its rhythms and impoverishing it in every other possible way? And, not only that, but failing to replace all that has been taken away with even the tiniest suggestion of musical substance, insight and creativity? Please tell me, what reasoning am I to follow not to react as I did? In what totally absurd (and, frankly, insulting) way does the credo 'composers helping composers' have to be twisted in order for me to say anything else than what I have said?

_


----------



## Ashermusic

re-peat @ Thu Jul 30 said:


> leogardini @ Thu Jul 30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the author of the mockup did a great job with the limitation of the library used.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't doubt for a second that that is true, but still: all I hear is a ghastly version of the 'Rhapsody in Blue'. Now, all of you polite and considerate good human beings, tell me: how am I supposed to react to a ghastly version of the Rhapsody? What am I supposed to say to a person turning in a version of the Rhapsody, robbing the work of a good deal of its magic, messing with its colours, destroying its dynamics, disrespecting its rhythms and impoverishing it in every other possible way? And failing to replace all that has been taken away with even the tiniest suggestion of musical substance, insight and creativity? Please tell me, what reasoning am I to follow not to react as I did? In what totally absurd (and, frankly, insulting) way does the credo 'composers helping composers' have to be twisted in order for me to say anything else than what I have said?
> 
> _
Click to expand...


2 possibilities come to mind:

1. Follow the old adage of "if you cannot say something nice, say nothing at all."

2. Say "I really do not care for the way this sounds. and in general, I do not think mocking up classics is a good idea."

Piet, it is not your opinion that got you in trouble here, or with me in the past, it is your tone. You are not the music critic for the NY Times, nor are you Igor Stravinsky, and so your lack of humility and total disrespect are a problem.

Liberty is NOT license. Because you CAN say it, does not mean you SHOULD, even if it is true,.

And this I fear is what you simply do not understand.


----------



## dcoscina

Eh, what's all the complaining about. Gershwin was overrated anyhow. :lol: 

I actually do not care for that particular piece mostly because I like edgier less happy music (I love Bartok, Mahler, and Prokofiev as well as Shosty and Vaughan Williams).

But this is personal preference. Re-peat, I can certainly see the passion and your strong sense of a higher aesthetic but considering what GPO4 is and where it stands in the world of orchestral sample libraries, I think Dan did a damn fine job. Hell, it got me to purchase it and I'm playing around with it as I load LASS on my Mac Pro.

Personally, I think libraries with too many variables and detail sometimes get in my own way of musical creative composition. I came up with just as good (if not better) music when I owned a simple Roland MOC-1, Emu Proteus 2, and XP30. Since I did not have a plethora of choices I was able to concentrate on the fundaments of music. GPO is a streamlined interface and library that allows one to do just that. I see it primarily as a compositional tool and less a finished product library although the bass drum on it kicks complete ass. 

Perhaps you should fiddle around with it before you summarily shit on it or Dan's efforts which I think are remarkable. Dan made the most of the library.

Coda- is it some unwritten rule around here to look down on the developers who market their products in a lower price bracket? I have read people crapping on Kirk Hunter's libs too even though Jay whole heartedly gives that library props when he can. Kirk is also a fantastic guy and totally customer oriented.


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## synergy543

Re-peat: Its not what you said, but "how" you said it. You can criticize someone's work (even strongly) without the utter rude disrespect and humiliation that you displayed. In other words, its possible to criticize respectfully.

Dan also kindly shared his technique on entering musical bends with pitch shifting in Digital Performer. So even if you dislike this work, he is generously sharing some very useful knowledge with others. For this alone, he deserves some respect and applause.

Had you met Dan face-to-face, I wonder if you would have had the audacity to express yourself the same way? I doubt it. For if you greet all those you met around you with the same rude disrespect, I doubt you'd be here to tell us about it.


----------



## chimuelo

I remember Brotha' Man Piet was involved in a BETA I happened to be involved with, and because of his harsh, but extremely accurate criticisms the instrument was re worked by the developer, and it came out very nice.
Well that's the flip side of this coin.
I would love to see him post in the Garritan threads where developers and critics are banned.............
At least we can call 'em like we see 'em here.
Viva La V.I. Control.


----------



## NYC Composer

re-peat @ Thu Jul 30 said:


> leogardini @ Thu Jul 30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the author of the mockup did a great job with the limitation of the library used.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't doubt for a second that that is true, but still: all I hear is a ghastly version of the 'Rhapsody in Blue'. Now, all of you polite and considerate good human beings, tell me: how am I supposed to react to a ghastly version of the Rhapsody? What am I supposed to say to a person turning in a version of the Rhapsody, robbing the work of a good deal of its magic, messing with its colours, destroying its dynamics, disrespecting its rhythms and impoverishing it in every other possible way? And, not only that, but failing to replace all that has been taken away with even the tiniest suggestion of musical substance, insight and creativity? Please tell me, what reasoning am I to follow not to react as I did? In what totally absurd (and, frankly, insulting) way does the credo 'composers helping composers' have to be twisted in order for me to say anything else than what I have said?
> 
> _
Click to expand...


Do you get into a lot of bar fights? I would think the person you are, one who stands for musical truth, righteousness and the unfettered God-given right to express one's deeply held beliefs, would be compelled to express his ever so forthright opinions in other forums than this, say...a bar. Perhaps you don't like the color of someone's shirt, the length of his hair, the looks of his woman. Do you then feel to express those feelings with the same forthrightness you do here at this safe distance..? If so, you must have battle scars going back a long way, because as sure as we type here, if you said something to me in person that was insulting as you said to DP Dan in this forum, I would have surely attempted to punch your lights out, and indeed, would have assumed that was your objective.

Which is pretty interesting, really, since I haven't raised my hand in anger since 1973.

Herein ends my Crusader Rabbit rant.


----------



## synergy543

Funny, I was going to invite both Piet and Dan for a beer on my deck and let Piet tell Dan what he "really feels" looking down the barrel of a shotgun. I was even going to offer to pick Piet up at the airport.

But I decided not to offer this after I thought about the aftermath and cleanup. Sometimes ya just gotta think about the consequences before you say something ya know?

True story: A bambi deer got stuck on our deck between the railings so we called animal control. Instead they sent a sheriff who pulled out his shotgun and held it up to the head of the animal and asked "Shall I?". So once again, cleverly thinking about the cleanup, I quickly grabbed the railing and yanked it out with my hand and let the poor animal go. I never thought of this before as it was kicking and screaming (yes, deer scream like dinosaurs - anyone know of a SFX recording capturing this?) as I was frozen like a deer in the headlights not know what to do.


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## Ashermusic

synergy543 @ Thu Jul 30 said:


> But I decided not to offer this after I thought about the aftermath and cleanup. Sometimes ya just gotta think about the consequences before you say something ya know?



There is a kind of personality type, and I have 2 close relatives who are like this, that believes that if what they are saying is true, nothing is off limits to be said.

I have told them both many times, "regardless if it is true or not, there are certain things you simply must not say to another, lines you must not cross."

But they persist. Some people who are like this have a condition in the mild end of the Autism scale called Asperger's Syndrome. At the risk of being accused of practicing psychology without a license, I think Piet may have this.
http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/tc/as ... e-symptoms


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## Niah

Ashermusic @ Fri Jul 31 said:


> But they persist. Some people who are like this have a condition in the mild end of the Autism scale called Asperger's Syndrome. At the risk of being accused of practicing psychology without a license, I think Piet may have this.
> http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/tc/as ... e-symptoms



as someone who has worked with autists and kids with Asperger's Syndrome I am just going to roll my eyes over that one  

lets just not go there, just because piet's words and attitude to life do not go well with some of your own code of conduct and principles doesn't mean that he has some kind of disorder 8) 

VI is like a big family, by now I think we have a pretty good idea of what to expect from piet or choco or any other member who is a little more suis generis than the rest

let piet be piet, accept people for what they are because really we don't have a choice, they are not going to change


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## JohnG

glad I didn't post my Proteus version of Beethoven's Fifth.


----------



## Ashermusic

Niah @ Thu Jul 30 said:


> Ashermusic @ Fri Jul 31 said:
> 
> 
> 
> But they persist. Some people who are like this have a condition in the mild end of the Autism scale called Asperger's Syndrome. At the risk of being accused of practicing psychology without a license, I think Piet may have this.
> http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/tc/as ... e-symptoms
> 
> 
> 
> 
> as someone who has worked with autists and kids with Asperger's Syndrome I am just going to roll my eyes over that one
> 
> lets just not go there, just because piet's words and attitude to life do not go well with some of your own code of conduct and principles doesn't mean that he has some kind of disorder 8)
> 
> VI is like a big family, by now I think we have a pretty good idea of what to expect from piet or choco or any other member who is a little more suis generis than the rest
> 
> let piet be piet, accept people for what they are because really we don't have a choice, they are not going to change
Click to expand...


Well, I said _may._

And we certainly DO have a choice in what we decide to tolerate here, whether they change or not. When someone behaves badly, we have a right to call them on it, don't we?


----------



## Guy Bacos

As this thread is winding down, I just want to congratulate Dan for proving that even if one can't afford a $1000.00 library he could still begin, enjoy and learn with an affordable library of $150.00 which has no pretense what-so-ever. There are many novices who would like the opportunity to learn programming but don't necessarily have the money to buy lib like LASS as soon as it's released.... What Dan just did is quite an achievement in my eyes. If ever someone asks me about an affordable lib just to have fun with I could tell him, I know a guy who did Rhapsody in Blue with it, among countless pieces. This is the positive I see from this, not to put it side by side with a version of the London Symphony orchestra, and I know Dan did not intend that. It is easy to be a snobby about these things, this is not a forum for high society, Dan's example shows what could be attainable for many and be used as a stepping stone to better libraries while acquiring more experience.

Well done Dan!


----------



## nikolas

re-peat @ Thu Jul 30 said:


> leogardini @ Thu Jul 30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the author of the mockup did a great job with the limitation of the library used.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't doubt for a second that that is true, but still: all I hear is a ghastly version of the 'Rhapsody in Blue'. Now, all of you polite and considerate good human beings, tell me: how am I supposed to react to a ghastly version of the Rhapsody? What am I supposed to say to a person turning in a version of the Rhapsody, robbing the work of a good deal of its magic, messing with its colours, destroying its dynamics, disrespecting its rhythms and impoverishing it in every other possible way? And, not only that, but failing to replace all that has been taken away with even the tiniest suggestion of musical substance, insight and creativity? Please tell me, what reasoning am I to follow not to react as I did? In what totally absurd (and, frankly, insulting) way does the credo 'composers helping composers' have to be twisted in order for me to say anything else than what I have said?
> 
> _
Click to expand...

If you actually think about it (although for a person who doesn't read music it's a tad difficult and if I remember correctly you don't read music):

Music is handed down in scores. These scores have very vauge instructions and some things just pass from generation to generation (especially to older composers). Since we don't have Gerswin with us today to say the things you say (so rudely in fact), I'd reckon that there is the slight chance that Dan's INTERPRETATION of the score is truthful to the composers intentions and your idea(l) of the work is NOT. EVer thought of that?

I certainly did not love the rapsody, but this does not mean I think anyone is robbing anything. This is absurd! Everyone has a right of opinion, don't you think? Or nazism has entered music and vi-control here? 

Anything that's been taken, if anything at all, it has been taken from YOUR illusionary state of what YOU think is right. So next time you do decide to post, do so in a private sense. There's no need for me, who I'm leaving in less than an hour for vacation to waste my time and reply to your absurd and rude posts towards Dan. (Oh... wait. I didn't HAVE TO! But you see, your posts robbed me of any good feelings I had today! Trully! And while I wouldn't say anything normally, I had to say something, even in much nicer words, only because you posted in such a way towards Dan).

________________________

And since I am working towards that for my PhD (and I have made a thread alread): Music is intended to be performed live: It's a social event, filled with every error that performers can fit in, wrong acoustics, and limited compositions due to the simple fact that they HAVE to be performed live. 

I had the same grudges with Sacre (against the polemics in fact).

If a recording is a B&W photocopy of the "true music" event, what does it matter how it was created? Because it insults your aesthetic?


----------



## ozmorphasis

re-peat @ Thu Jul 30 said:


> leogardini @ Thu Jul 30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the author of the mockup did a great job with the limitation of the library used.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't doubt for a second that that is true, but still: all I hear is a ghastly version of the 'Rhapsody in Blue'. Now, all of you polite and considerate good human beings, tell me: how am I supposed to react to a ghastly version of the Rhapsody? What am I supposed to say to a person turning in a version of the Rhapsody, robbing the work of a good deal of its magic, messing with its colours, destroying its dynamics, disrespecting its rhythms and impoverishing it in every other possible way? And, not only that, but failing to replace all that has been taken away with even the tiniest suggestion of musical substance, insight and creativity? Please tell me, what reasoning am I to follow not to react as I did? In what totally absurd (and, frankly, insulting) way does the credo 'composers helping composers' have to be twisted in order for me to say anything else than what I have said?
> 
> _
Click to expand...


Robbing the work?? The problem here is that you are letting it rob YOU of your own peace of mind. I assure you, Gershwin's "work" is safe from the tyranny of low-cost-library mock-ups. Your concerns and measure of disgust would only be justified, IMHO, if the entire next generation of children were locked up and only allowed to listen to this version of this piece, thereby missing out on the real deal. This mockup was not intended for that type of representation and will never have the kind of detrimental effect that you are worried about. 

Trust me, I wasn't exactly getting goosebumps when I listened to this mockup either, but for it to _anger_ me...would say much more about me than about the mockup. We're supposed to be bigger than that.

And I especially find this disappointing since Mingus is one of my all time heroes...he's your avatar...so dammit, do him right...maintain the respetto level...for the love of _The Shoes of the Fisherman's Wife are Some Jive Ass Slippers._

Out,
O


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## Ed

BRILLIANT job

with crappy sounds. DPDAN should get on the VSL train


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## IvanP

Guy Bacos @ Fri Jul 31 said:


> As this thread is winding down, I just want to congratulate Dan for proving that even if one can't afford a $1000.00 library he could still begin, enjoy and learn with an affordable library of $150.00 which has no pretense what-so-ever. There are many novices who would like the opportunity to learn programming but don't necessarily have the money to buy lib like LASS as soon as it's released.... What Dan just did is quite an achievement in my eyes. If ever someone asks me about an affordable lib just to have fun with I could tell him, I know a guy who did Rhapsody in Blue with it, among countless pieces. This is the positive I see from this, not to put it side by side with a version of the London Symphony orchestra, and I know Dan did not intend that. It is easy to be a snobby about these things, this is not a forum for high society, Dan's example shows what could be attainable for many and be used as a stepping stone to better libraries while acquiring more experience.
> 
> Well done Dan!



I, for once, +1


----------



## david robinson

hi,
i've got a few mock ups i did back in the early 1990's
with a Korg synth and a Roland MC-500.
things like Night on Bald Mountain, Symphony in 3 Movements, Rite of Spring, etc.
done by ear off records.........
hmmm.
learned more by doing these than studying for 5years.
but, i doubt, now, they'd benefit anyone by posting them on a forum.
David R.


----------



## lux

JohnG @ Thu Jul 30 said:


> glad I didn't post my Proteus version of Beethoven's Fifth.



lol, missed this :mrgreen:


----------



## Pedro Camacho

re-peat @ Thu Jul 30 said:


> As far as I’m concerned, this was never about GPO (I don’t doubt that it can be a very useful and creative tool), my point is that some people keep shamelessly throwing these monstrosities onto the world, uninhibited by any sense of decency or respect for good music. This Kuryfied Rhapsody is a truly abysmal incarnation of what is a glorious piece of music. Presenting it, with a depraved sense of achievement, to the public in this mutilated and violated shape − cause that is what this is − is something that I consider pretty offensive. And again, the fact that it’s done with Garritan libraries is completely irrelevant. I would say precisely the same thing if this was done with high-end libraries. Great music is publically being raped and ruined here, and that’s what I find so objectionable. (I have pretty much the same issues with Bacal’s Sacre by the way, even though that sounded a lot better than this painfully amateuristic Kury turd.)
> 
> I don’t really mind people doing mock-ups of the classics − it can be a very educational excercise, I’m sure − but the moment they have the arrogance to present these efforts in public as musically valid products no less, and bask in the stupid applause of a spineless and musically completely ignorant crowd, that’s when things turn really perverse, in my opinion.
> 
> _



100% Agree

If you want to be a good mockuper the first thing you need to learn are the weaknesses and strenghts of your libraries. You can't write everything out of a single library.

It is like if you try to write with the great symphobia a piece like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi_efzYcXGI


you just can't...

So if you try to do it, it will come out an abomination.


I dont care if the lib is cheap or not, it is simply an abomination and a real dishonor to the piece itself.


----------



## re-peat

ozmorphasis @ Fri Jul 31 said:


> This mockup (...) will never have the kind of detrimental effect that you are worried about.



Actually, Ozmo, that is precisely what is happening. This thread − and the disconcerting absence of desire for quality, as displayed by many of its participants − is the very proof of it. You see, what we're being asked to do here is to greet a paint-by-numbers version of the Mona Lisa with 'respect' and treat is as if it were some valid, creative achievement in itself. Well sorry, but I can't. And I won't - never. 
I've had a good night sleep over this, but I don't take anything back of what I wrote yesterday. Not a single syllable. You just don't mess with music.

_


----------



## IvanP

Pedro, every mockup IS an abomination VS the real thing...if it weren't the case, real orchestras would have been long gone...

But I think the point here is different...

Do you need to do a mockup as real as possible for your director / approval / final mix?

You'll have to mix libraries and be as good midi artist as you can be. 

On the other hand...you are a composer that only need a sonic imprint of what could be the final result of a piece? But you don't have a huge computer, money to spend on libraries, etc. Well, this is one of the many options in the market to consider...

The ability to be able to abstract oneself from the computerized sounds and imagine it in a real orchestral setting depends on your skills as a composer and, moreover, of your practice with real instruments.

You will remember how, some centuries ago, some composers could imagine 40+ staves on their head. Some of them were actually deaf and their works are even being performed these days.

Not everybody posess these abilities, of course, but maybe a "sonic" imprint of how your piece sounds could be enough for them to compose, which, after all, is the deal, right? We want our pieces to be heard, used, performed, but, most of all, we'd like to be above all good composers.

If this tool is enough for some people (John Adams, etc.), why keep on bashing it? 

If you need better tools, go ahead and buy them. 
If you don't you'll probably have more money to spend on your girlfriend, cars or anything else.

My point is that if this tool is enough for some composers, I don't see the need of bashing it for the sake of it...

And, as a reminder, I'm one of the guys who need expensive libraries to create my pieces. I wish I wouldn't need them, I'd be much wealthier :mrgreen: 

Chill out, guys!


----------



## lux

we're talking about manners and personal education, not mockups. Who give a fuck about mockups talk before people gets the sense of a mannered approach.

Anyway, usually when this happens its due to things that are older than this forum. I suspect something happened in some obscure past between the actors of this ridicolous drama. And i'm afraid none will be as sincere to admit it.

probably it has also to do with the fact that it is garritan.

anyway, no mockup talk until some basic common education floor is established. Not for me at least.


----------



## germancomponist

Pedro Camacho @ Fri Jul 31 said:


> ...If you want to be a good mockuper the first thing you need to learn are the weaknesses and strenghts of your libraries. You can't write everything out of a single library.
> 
> It is like if you try to write with the great symphobia a piece like this:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi_efzYcXGI
> 
> 
> you just can't...
> 
> So if you try to do it, it will come out an abomination.
> 
> 
> I dont care if the lib is cheap or not, it is simply an abomination and a real dishonor to the piece itself.



Pedro,

I did this thread not for a comparison between sample libraries, but now as I asked before, I would like to listen to a piece what you have composed or arranged with your big libraries, perhaps something like this you have linked here? I mean in the same liga! :-D

Come on!


----------



## re-peat

Luca, 

That’s all this thread needed: some paranoid remark about things that might possibly have happened in some dark distant past. Let me assure you: nothing did. I wasn’t there. So, for the record: I never had any previous dealings with Mr. Kury and I don’t know the man. And Mr. Garritan don’t enter into either as far as I’m concerned: I don’t suffer from the Garritan trauma which many here seem to carry around (too often with a rather suspect sense of theatricality).

As for good manners: unlike many others here, I never launched a personal attack on anyone. All the, admittedly extremely negative, adjectives in my posts refer strictly to the musicmaking (and its results), not the person behind it. Re-read my posts carefully, and you can’t but agree. For all I know, Mr. Kury may be among the nicer persons on this planet − apparently, testimony here says he is, although his one verbal contribution to this thread leaves me with more than a pinch of doubt − but even so, that’s not the point. My point is that, nice person or not, (a) his version of the Rhapsody stinks and (b) that I deplore the idea that he is, for some bizarre reason, entitled to respect and collegial approval for this inferior rendition. All in the name of good manners? I’m sorry, but that’s nonsense. As much as Mr. Kurry is entitled to air his Rhapsody in public, I believe I am entitled to say that it is a horrible disfiguration of a great piece of music.

And finally, I don’t need any lecturing in good manners, personal education or civilized behaviour, not from you or anyone else here. The things that I’ve been called throughout this thread FAR outweigh even my most offensive phrases, where rudeness and aggressive language is concerned. Anyone unwilling or unable to see that, is not in a position to teach us about good manners.

_


----------



## Stevie

germancomponist @ Fri Jul 31 said:


> Pedro,
> 
> I did this thread not for a comparison between sample libraries, but now as I asked before, I would like to listen to a piece what you have composed or arranged with your big libraries, perhaps something like this you have linked here? I mean in the same liga! :-D
> 
> Come on!



Why not just visit his website? He has composed music for a bunch of games.
http://www.musicbypedro.com/index.php/music

How about showing us your radio commercials done with GPO? I'm really curious.


----------



## germancomponist

Stevie @ Fri Jul 31 said:


> germancomponist @ Fri Jul 31 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pedro,
> 
> I did this thread not for a comparison between sample libraries, but now as I asked before, I would like to listen to a piece what you have composed or arranged with your big libraries, perhaps something like this you have linked here? I mean in the same liga! :-D
> 
> Come on!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why not just visit his website? He has composed music for a bunch of games.
> http://www.musicbypedro.com/index.php/music
> 
> How about showing us your radio commercials done with GPO? I'm really curious.
Click to expand...


I visited his website and listend there to his music, but I asked for a piece in the same liga where we are talking about here, the link Pedro posted... . 

Ha, cool, I will look and post some of the old radio commercials.


----------



## Hannes_F

Hmm ... somehow this is unfortunate.

re-piet is somebody with excellent ears and taste, and the fact that he can actually create original masterpieces with samples does not leave room for doubts on his competence, at least not for me. I have seeked his advice in private before, and even if he is sounding harsh here I can understand where he is coming from.

Actually to be honest I must admit that I turned off Dan Kury's Rhapsody rendition when the strings came in. Please read until the end though. I was a little disappointed because I know Dan for a long time and think he is really a master in his own way. He is always helpful and kind and I have learnt a lot from him both in public and privately and can not be thankful enough for that. However for somebody like me that lives night and day for strings this strings entry is difficult to listen to, I think it is even not the best that can be achieved with GPO.

Something to consider maybe: Dan normally exclusively uses GOS strings, so switching back to GPO strings for that project could have been new for him. Due to this thread I relistened his Rhapsody rendition and now discovered many nice details including some later passages where the strings are not even so bad. I guess he had to practise a little with them and did hit some spots better, some not so good. But relistening the rendition was definetely worth it.

I think the conflict under the surface is deeper than what is obvious. Both men, re-piet and DPDAN imo have excellent ears, musicality, experience. However re-piet is living for the act of originary musical creation while Dan has specialized himself somehow to showing "that it can be done nevertheless". I feel he is restricting his talent by that and wished he would free himself to use whatever tool or library he wants and be the original, the creator he could be. I think re-peat has fine senses for that and it rubs him.


----------



## lux

Hannes, i think your post and language used demonstrates how it is possible to express things in a pretty decent manner. And i dont think you had to squeeze your balls while writing to convince yourself to not sput insulting metaphores and use "effect" words. It just happened naturally because thats how youre educated.

Looks easy.


----------



## SergeD

I like this mockup for one thing, as a customer (based on my limited knowledge of music) I can see what is good and what is less good in GPO4. So congrats to Dan for his very honest demo.

I also like the VSL "Sacre du Printemps" demo for this same reason. From my subjective evaluation some parts are good and some parts are not that good.

It could be easier to mockup a gentle and soft piece having some string pads here and there once in a while and show only the strong side of a library.

My .02 Canadian cents,

SergeD


----------



## hbuus

Guy Bacos @ Thu Jul 30 said:


> I will go ahead and say it. I think some people on this thread have NO class despite how good they are. This is not Carnegie Hall, please! It's just a public forum where people hope to get constructive feedback, not destructive feedback. And I think it's a big lack of respect for someone with the credentials and achievements of Dan.



Guy, thank you for writing this, I couldn't agree more.

If you do not like a piece of music, you can state your opinion in any number of ways. Why choose the absolute ugliest? It's unnecessary, plain and simple, and if we all discarded our manners and instead consistently and deliberately used the most rude approach possible when posting here, VI Control would not be the same forum we all like so much.

/Henrik


----------



## Guy Bacos

re-peat @ Fri Jul 31 said:


> The things that I’ve been called throughout this thread FAR outweigh even my most offensive phrases, where rudeness and aggressive language is concerned. Anyone unwilling or unable to see that, is not in a position to teach us about good manners.
> 
> _



So re-peat, if you don't appreciate being insulted like that, why can't you understand that someone like Dan could be offended by your comments? The question here is not who is right and who is wrong, just being sensitive to what others may think.


----------



## Ashermusic

re-peat @ Fri Jul 31 said:


> And finally, I don’t need any lecturing in good manners, personal education or civilized behaviour, not from you or anyone else here.
> _



Actually, you do.

Piet, take out your dictionary and look up the word "honest". Then look up the word "tactless." Are they the same?

It is exactly what happened between us when you disagreed with me about Kirk Hunter's libraries. Instead of writing something that would be both honest and yet, well, civilized, like, " I really do not like the sound of this library as I think it sounds synthetic and is poorly reorded" you instead wrote something like, "How could anyone who calls himself a professional and has ears possibly like this P.O.S. library? It's dreadful and Kirk should be shot for putting it out."

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE, PIET!

I thought perhaps you had learned something from that episode. Apparently not.


----------



## Ian Dorsch

I can see this piece two ways. 

As a classical musician and a lover of all kinds of art music, I found the mockup difficult to listen to. At this stage of the discussion, I don't see much point in digging into specific criticisms, but my general impressions are similar to what's already been expressed by Hannes.

On the other hand, as a computer musician who has worked within the limitations of previous versions of GPO, I can appreciate the value of this mock up as a monumental technical exercise in exploring the boundaries of what's possible with a bare bones, entry level library. I have to give Dan his props for taking on a work of this magnitude. It must have taken a tremendous amount of time and effort to bring this thing as far as he did. Sure, there are parts that could have benefited from additional massaging, but the stuff that works well is impressive indeed, given the tools with which he's working.

I don't find it to be an expressive or musical rendering of the Rhapsody, but there is still much to admire, even if it's not obvious upon first listen.


----------



## dcoscina

I would like to hear a "miles better" version on VSL. I believe that, regardless of the library, it would come off as stilted and plastic. Which gets back to the point of mock-ups in the first place. My feeling is that Dan's mock up DID reveal some very positive advancements in the GPO lineage- it got me to buy it. 

I installed both GPO4 on my Macbook last night and LASS on my Mac Pro. I loved the sound of LASS but to achieve a really awesome demo, work is involved because it is so deep of a library. GPO4 does not sound anywhere near as real but I found I was coming up with a plethora of ideas in the compositional sense. Some very neat Bartok inspired wind writing lines too. I love the bass drum and even the celli sections on GPO4. I must admit I'm a wee bit disappointed in the SAM brass and had hope Gary would have included actual staccato articulations but as is, they are leagues better than the base GPO brass. Once again, I could see myself composing on Finale or Sibelius using GPO4 and then, if necessary, rendering it with my more expensive libs for finished quality.

But that's just me.

Re-peat, I do not believe I ever insulted you on this thread- just pointed out that the tenor of your initial post was not sensitive nor respectful to the musician who did spend time on this mock up. You certainly have the right to not like it but it's the way you articulated yourself that seems to have opened yourself up to the plethora of rebuttals. I will say I admire and respect your passion towards a higher musical aesthetic, misplaced as it might have been on this particular count.


----------



## germancomponist

A good post, dcoscina!

My father drove a big Mercedes 500 SE, but he always liked it to drive with my little VW Polo at these days when I was at scool. He never smiled or was arrogant about my car... . And this not only because he was my father!


----------



## lux

dcoscina @ Fri Jul 31 said:


> I must admit I'm a wee bit disappointed in the SAM brass and had hope Gary would have included actual staccato articulations but as is, they are leagues better than the base GPO brass. Once again, I could see myself composing on Finale or Sibelius using GPO4 and then, if necessary, rendering it with my more expensive libs for finished quality.



Do you mean that no staccs have been included?


----------



## Guy Bacos

You know, some people have the philosophy either it's *good* music or *bad* music, and if it's *bad* I'm not going to hold back to let you know. I've known people like that, that's how they are. Re-peat is bright, articulate and good composer, however I don't agree with his communicative skills, especially because encouragement is priceless. I remember a while back he left me with a rather cold comment about a piece of mine, well, although I didn't like, I was able to trash it and empty the trash. I hope Dan is doing the same thing.


----------



## dcoscina

lux @ Fri Jul 31 said:


> dcoscina @ Fri Jul 31 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I must admit I'm a wee bit disappointed in the SAM brass and had hope Gary would have included actual staccato articulations but as is, they are leagues better than the base GPO brass. Once again, I could see myself composing on Finale or Sibelius using GPO4 and then, if necessary, rendering it with my more expensive libs for finished quality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean that no staccs have been included?
Click to expand...


It appears to be the case. I will post this question to Gary on Northern Sounds to get the definitive answer. I think there's a length parameter that one can change but it's still not like an actual sample of a short articulation. Oh well, I don't really need them as I do have a lot of other libs and this one was purchased for composing and quick sketches on my laptop.


----------



## germancomponist

Guy Bacos @ Fri Jul 31 said:


> You know, some people have the philosophy either it's *good* music or *bad* music, and if it's *bad* I'm not going to hold back to let you know. I've known people like that, that's how they are. Re-peat is bright, articulate and good composer, however I don't agree with his communicative skills, especially because encouragement is priceless. I remember a while back he left me with a rather cold comment about a piece of mine, well, although I didn't like, I was able to trash it and empty the trash. I hope Dan is doing the same thing.



I know Dan as a great person, he gave me many great tips in mixing and he is alwas sooo patient...., I think he can live with Re-peat`s ujnfriendly words.


----------



## rayinstirling

Against my better judgment ? Wait! a minute I don't have any.

Who, posted this piece here Danny ? No it was Gunther.
Would Dan have posted here himself ? Doubtful!

What is the purpose of this mock-up ? To sell GPO4 to the masses.
Not! to professional virtual instrument users.

To most wannabes it'll sound great! The market is there for the product.
To most pro's it'll sound uninspiring! Yes! and most will steer clear of any comment here because of the aggro.

IMO, as someone who has made a lot of money over the last 20 years from creating uninspiring mock-ups and now "trying" to correct my wicked ways, and furthermore taking into account the amount of work put into doing this mock-up.
Sadly I find it quite poor and I have listened to much better work from Dan.
Apart from the GPO4 sounds, I think this makes the piano sound bad and I know the the piano is a very capable instrument.

Gunther, shame on you for putting this up here.
You know very few people are able to give an opinion while ignoring others.

"IMO" means just that. A decision and opinion solely reached by "ME".


----------



## Guy Bacos

rayinstirling @ Fri Jul 31 said:


> Would Dan have posted here himself ? Doubtful!



And why do you think that?

Edit: So this was said jokingly? ok


----------



## germancomponist

rayinstirling @ Fri Jul 31 said:


> ...
> 
> Who, posted this piece here Danny ? No it was Gunther.
> Would Dan have posted here himself ? Doubtful!
> 
> What is the purpose of this mock-up ? To sell GPO4 to the masses.
> Not! to professional virtual instrument users. ....
> 
> Gunther, shame on you for putting this up here.
> You know very few people are able to give an opinion while ignoring others.
> 
> "IMO" means just that. A decision and opinion solely reached by "ME".



Ha, Ray, I like your humor! :-D

I also remember that you did very great pieces with the old GPO. 

Best,

Gunther


----------



## lux

dcoscina @ Fri Jul 31 said:


> lux @ Fri Jul 31 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcoscina @ Fri Jul 31 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I must admit I'm a wee bit disappointed in the SAM brass and had hope Gary would have included actual staccato articulations but as is, they are leagues better than the base GPO brass. Once again, I could see myself composing on Finale or Sibelius using GPO4 and then, if necessary, rendering it with my more expensive libs for finished quality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean that no staccs have been included?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It appears to be the case. I will post this question to Gary on Northern Sounds to get the definitive answer. I think there's a length parameter that one can change but it's still not like an actual sample of a short articulation. Oh well, I don't really need them as I do have a lot of other libs and this one was purchased for composing and quick sketches on my laptop.
Click to expand...


well, this sounds weird, to say the least. I mean, whats the sense of an update based on Sam Brass if you dont fill such relevant gaps like the absence of staccato articulations?


----------



## PolarBear

Ashermusic @ Fri Jul 31 said:


> re-peat @ Fri Jul 31 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And finally, I don’t need any lecturing in good manners, personal education or civilized behaviour, not from you or anyone else here.
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, you do.
Click to expand...

And you could take the seat right next to him for making this another of your personal episodes in your curse on Piet and many hidden attacks not only on him but the whole VI community for not seeing the right thing or sharing your holy vision (which is needed to circumvent a mass of replies from you) and whatelse.


----------



## PolarBear

re-peat @ Fri Jul 31 said:


> I've had a good night sleep over this, but I don't take anything back of what I wrote yesterday. Not a single syllable. You just don't mess with music.


So... the question still stands... what about recordings of music written for live perfomance? How well do two speakers substitue 80+ musicians?


----------



## Ashermusic

PolarBear @ Fri Jul 31 said:


> Ashermusic @ Fri Jul 31 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> re-peat @ Fri Jul 31 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And finally, I don’t need any lecturing in good manners, personal education or civilized behaviour, not from you or anyone else here.
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, you do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And you could take the seat right next to him for making this another of your personal episodes in your curse on Piet and many hidden attacks not only on him but the whole VI community for not seeing the right thing or sharing your holy vision (which is needed to circumvent a mass of replies from you) and whatelse.
Click to expand...


So when I post that IMHO thinking that you will ever get a bunch of samples to sound like the "real thing" even if you spend tons of hours, that is tantamount to a "hidden attack on the whole VI community?"

Interesting point of view Look up the word "hyperbole."

I guess it has escaped your notice that I never comment on a person's work here, positively or negatively, only on their ideas.


----------



## re-peat

PolarBear @ Fri Jul 31 said:


> So... the question still stands... what about recordings of music written for live perfomance? How well do two speakers substitue 80+ musicians?



Polar,

A decent sound reproducing system is more than adequate, I believe, to communicate most of what I look for in music. We all know that it can't replace the physical presence of an orchestra or convey the magic that's filling the air when a live body of fine musicians does its thing (preferably in an acoustically beneficial environment), but apart from that, I must say that I miss very little - musically speaking, that is - when listening to a good recording through a decent sound system. I believe that I’m being given a very fair chance to take away the essence of what a composer and/or performer has put in when listening to his/her work on a satisfactory set of speakers. 

Now, if you consider the physical presence of the sounding body (or bodies) to be a vital part of 'experiencing music', than yes, I would have to agree that two speakers just won't do, but if you are able - as most people are, I would think - to accept and "listen through" the inevitable compromise that's inherent in most sound reproduction systems, than I really don't see why or where two decent speakers fail in transmitting virtually all of the composer's and/or performer's intentions and wishes.

So, while a good sound system may not be able communicate or project all of what constitutes "the experience of an orchestral piece of music", at least _it doesn't betray the music_ ... unlike all mock-ups, which are by their very nature a horrible travesty. A mock-up (any mock-up) is a musical fraud from top to bottom and from start to finish. It hopes to pose for something else. It aims to recreate a beauty which is far beyond its reach and end ups offering a distorted reflection of that beauty. Worst of all: mock-ups turn a fine, often life-enhancing art (the art of creating, performing and sharing music) into a cheap, one-dimensional and unbearably superficial emptyness. 
To condense all the above in one sentence: mock-ups are the vulgar plastic flowers of music.

So, I ask, why pollute the musical world with these loathsome creations? And why is one expected to approach them with respect and civilized manner when mock-ups themselves are the very epitome of disrespect and bad manners (not just to the composers/performers, but to anyone who holds music in high regard). Mock-ups degrade music, as well as the appreciation of music and true quality - a fact which has sadly been demonstrated all too painfully in this very thread. 

_


----------



## dcoscina

based on your last sentence, you ought not to write anything for sample libraries and strictly stick with acoustic instruments and real musicians if you hold music up so highly.

Just citing the hypocrisy.

Edit- if you hold such contempt for sampled libraries, why in the heck are you on this forum anyhow?


----------



## dcoscina

I also want to point out that if GPO4 gets people interested in orchestral music, and some of them might end up studying it formally and going on to very productive careers in music, then I say good for Gary and his products. It's a shit load better than Acid or Garageband that endorse loop-based "composing". Yeah, the samples are not VSL but they still have the timbral qualities to teach fundamental arranging.


----------



## PolarBear

Ashermusic @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> PolarBear @ Fri Jul 31 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ashermusic @ Fri Jul 31 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> re-peat @ Fri Jul 31 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And finally, I don’t need any lecturing in good manners, personal education or civilized behaviour, not from you or anyone else here.
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, you do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And you could take the seat right next to him for making this another of your personal episodes in your curse on Piet and many hidden attacks not only on him but the whole VI community for not seeing the right thing or sharing your holy vision (which is needed to circumvent a mass of replies from you) and whatelse.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So when I post that IMHO thinking that you will ever get a bunch of samples to sound like the "real thing" even if you spend tons of hours, that is tantamount to a "hidden attack on the whole VI community?"
> 
> Interesting point of view Look up the word "hyperbole."
> 
> I guess it has escaped your notice that I never comment on a person's work here, positively or negatively, only on their ideas.
Click to expand...

You're never getting personal... faaaar from that, I know. Shit, I made another reply, now let it come.


----------



## PolarBear

re-peat @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> So, while a good sound system may not be able communicate or project all of what constitutes "the experience of an orchestral piece of music"


*to you* (you're missing an important part here)



re-peat @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> at least _it doesn't betray the music_ ...


whatever that would mean that wouldn't hold up against any physical perfomance of a masterfully thought composition. And real musicians never get it right, no matter how involved and insane their practice. They approximate.




re-peat @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> And why is one expected to approach them with respect and civilized manner when mock-ups themselves are the very epitome of disrespect and bad manners (not just to the composers/performers, but to anyone who holds music in high regard).


Hmmm. You're a tough one. Respect and civilization amongst humans being the reason for music to exceed war fanfare status? Because it's not bars, notes and black anonymous letters you deal with on these forums, but humans?

How could you endure over 600 posts on a forum being 99% of the time about mockups, I'm left with my jaw dropping now.


----------



## synergy543

re-peat @ Fri Jul 31 said:


> A decent sound reproducing system is more than adequate....


Now that's the biggest load of crap!

Sir, you are delusional if you think stereo (regardless of the cost of your "Hi-Fi" speaker) is an adequate representation of vibrating bodies in 3D space. Stereo is akin to a photograph rather than a 3D image. We can enjoy it still but surely yours ears can hear the difference no? Have you not ever heard music reproduced by a surround system as being slightly better than stereo even if its still far from the real thing?

So, while stereo is hardly an "adequate" representation and is more like a "fake" mockup of a real audio performance, people can still "enjoy" listening to music coming out of two paper cone speakers - even though its VERY MUCH a FAKE representation - not an "ADEQUATE" one. Just as I enjoyed my hamburger today which was fake rather than real meat.



re-peat @ Fri Jul 31 said:


> To condense all the above in one sentence: mock-ups are the vulgar plastic flowers of music.
> 
> So, I ask, why pollute the musical world with these loathsome creations?


Sir, mockups are like photographs. Have you ever enjoyed looking at a photograph or a 2D piece of graphic art work? 2D art work is "lifeless and flat". Yet, people can still enjoy it even though its not 3D. Come to think of it, don't you work with 2D graphics also? Why not a real 3D program such as Maya or Cinema4D? Or at least "motion graphics"?

Why deny the world enjoyment with your Nazi attitude? If people enjoy it, why not let them be? Can their pleasure not be of equal joy to that you get from your higher-value snobbery?


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## hbuus

Here are the forum rules for Member Composition Reviews:

*"Forum Rules

When posting new pieces please be prepared for honest critiques of your music/productions. Many of the reviewers who frequent this forum will offer helpful advice and will not hesitate to point out problems that can actually help this and other future pieces. When reviewing try to be constructive - rather than just point out problems attempt to offer solutions. Musicians helping musicians - right? "*

Honest, constructive critique - musicians helping musicians.

Let's say your friend asks you what you think about his new shirt.
You don't like the shirt one bit.
What do you tell him?

"You know, that's one ugly shirt you got there! In fact it's got to be one of the most hideous pieces of clothing I have ever had the misfortune to lay my eyes on! Man, I hope you didn't pay a lot of money for it! It looks like something I would use to wash the floor with - and I'd feel sorry for the floor while doing it! I'll bet if you donated that shirt to the poor people in the 3rd world, not even THEY would want to use it!"

- or - 

"You know, since you are asking, I have to admit it's not really my type of shirt. It's too bright in the colors for my taste. But we all have different taste in clothing, that's the way it is. If you're happy with the shirt, that's all that matters, right?"

Honest, constructive criticism.
Not verbal abuse!

/Henrik


----------



## Pzy-Clone

hey ...its only abuse if you dont like it, right?

But why anyone gets upset or all moral and preachy about samples is waaaaay beyond me.

And anyway...pick the right battles...attacking GPO mockups...LOL, now that`s a lost couse.

A travesty indeed.

Hey didnt someone already play the Travesty card in here some time ago? 

In the first VI Control Great Exodus ?
....or was it the second, i forget.


----------



## nikolas

Piet,

I see that you keep refussing to deal with the simply issue that any recording is an abomination of a live performance. You also fail to talk about any kind of personal reference and scores, which do NOT have the aesthetics of the composer necessarily but that of the performers, which may vary. Maybe this is a reaons that Beethoven still gets performances! 

But whatever... I love your music, looking forward to the concertino (LASS version). I was very surprised by your rude replies to this thread, but as I said: whatever...


----------



## nikolas

Sorry for the double question, but it needs asking:

Piet, Pedro,

A hypothetical question. I'm not sure if you've had this happen before, since (again this is not any kind of personal offence or anything) you don't read music, Piet (no idea about Pedro) (unless I'm mistaken and have you confused with someone else...)

If you had a work on a score, performed by someone how would you react? I mean the reason you're reacting in such a strong manners to Dans' work is because of the awful result REGARDLESS of medium used (samples, live orchestra, etc)? Would you react to the same way if your work was played in what you think is "bad"? Would it make any difference if it was performed live, or done with samples? 

Cause, let me tell you (Pier mainly), I've had plenty of my works performed live and as long as I see there is *respect* in the performance and the analysis of my works, I can't really comment too much, unless there is a direct "dissobedience" of my instructions (for example someone decided to play C instead of D, for no reason, or they mix completely the dynamics, etc). 

I've had plenty of surprises in works performed by others and not all were pleasent, but on the contrary I've learned to open my ears and mind further, to accept the very respectful work they did.


----------



## Pedro Camacho

Hmm read music?

Do you mean by that reading a piano piece or 4voice Bach chorale at first sight correctly? yes

Do you mean by that reading orchestral piece and hearing inside your brain how it will sound like and analyse it harmonically? Well I am a bit untrained these days, so perhaps no.

About performing music, here goes a 5 voice renaissance Counterpoint I did, Palestrina style.
http://www.musicbypedro.com/music/Kyrie_Eleyson.mp3

I think this thread is becoming quite nonsense at all.

The thing is, when I hear music (an mp3), I don't care too much how it was done or performed, if the lib is cheap or not, I just hear the result.

This result is NOT good.

If you say "this is the best these samples allow me to do" then I say, then dont do it, you are disrespecting the author. It sounds too bad to be acceptable.

I know really very well what you mean by performances of your work... but are you sure you can compare that to... GPO4?

I mean come one... the library itself is simply too horrible by itself.

I know Dan did the best he could with it (I think I could never do any better), but good sense should tell him "ok this library really can't handle this piece, I will trash it" no?


----------



## nikolas

Pedro,

I had little doubt about you (while I think I know Pier does not read music). IF I've offended you in any case I'm sorry. Didn't mean to.

No, I wasn't comparing GPO4 to a live performance. But I think that expectations also vary greatly! So it should be a point about that.

Is it really THAT bad example of the Rhapsody? Or are we simply overeacting a little (from both points I think)? Of course GPO is not a little kid drawing pics and everyone going "awwww... how nice", it's a package for sale and as such it is entitled to as harsh critisism as anything. Same goes to the performers. But it still remains a point of view for everyone (I REALLY did not think this sucked such a big time, and I've heard some great pieces from others with GPO3), and I did also consider the price point, the size of the library, etc.

And I'm just trying to remain as balanced as possible in terms of price point/quality of library vs result/time spent etc... There must be a valid point where you can say "ok, that's it' for every involved party.


----------



## re-peat

dcoscina @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> based on your last sentence, you ought not to write anything for sample libraries and strictly stick with acoustic instruments and real musicians if you hold music up so highly.
> 
> Just citing the hypocrisy.
> 
> Edit- if you hold such contempt for sampled libraries, why in the heck are you on this forum anyhow?



*Dcoscina*

I was expecting this. Although not from you, whom I thought cleverer.

But before I continue: the single most frustrating thing - for me anyway - in this thread is that nobody seems to take the trouble to actually read what I write, but invariably twists my very carefully chosen words (and believe me, they are very carefully chosen) into some banal simplifications to coincide with what they think I wrote. Most frustrating. Elementary decency, good people, is also: making an effort to try and understand what the other is saying. I’m well aware by now that many of you don’t seem to have the first clue about the things I’m trying to communicate - a very peculiar situation on a musician’s forum, if I may say so - but, please, make an effort. It will avoid much ill feelings and the outcome will be far more rewarding, you’ll see.

Where or when - for instance - did I ever say that I hold sample libraries in contempt? I didn't, did I? Read my post again, very slowly if necessary, and you'll notice that I never said anything of the sort. Sample libraries? I love 'em. Profoundly. They are my orchestra. You see: I don't write music for sampled acoustic instruments, I write music for the sounds which we call ‘samples’ and ‘virtual instruments’ (although there is nothing virtual about them, as far as I’m concerned). When I work with LASS, I don't write for string orchestra, I write for LASS. I've never written anything for clarinet, but I have written a whole lot for the Synful-patch that goes by the name 'clarinet'. I don't write for trumpets, I write for the SampleModeling sounds and algorithms which evoke trumpetness. A huuuuuuuuuuge and enormously important difference. Can't stress this enough. And that difference also goes to the very heart of why mock-ups don't work: they ignore that difference. 

*Greg,*

What’s gotten into you, if I may ask? I’m accustomed to a much kinder and wiser Greg, one that I really liked talking to, as it happens. Has he gone? What made you decide to join the lynch mob in this thread. And don’t tell me it is because of what I wrote, because the Greg I used to know, would have had no problem in using the apparently provocative nature of my views as a platform for a healthy and interesting discussion. (That’s what I miss so much in this thread, you know: someone to talk to.) Anyway, I never said that people aren’t allowed to enjoy mock-ups. I merely stated that I really don’t see what there is to enjoy in the first place.

Also: very strange that, everytime someone is trying to create, instill or stimulate an awareness for better quality, that there’s invariably someone creeping out of the woodwork, shouting “Nazi!”. Why is that? I’ve been accused on more occasions than I care to remember of being a Nazi, when, in reality, I’m probably the most anti-totalitarian, anti-elitist, free-roaming, anti-establishment buccaneer you could think of. But I fight for better music, yes.
But hey, if you wanna talk fascism with me, I’m more than happy to pick up the glove. The real fascism, in my view, is the implied shift towards bland, uniform mediocrity that infests this thread and, by extention, a large part of this community. The fear of quality, THAT is the nazi idea. Because quality makes individuals, quality always stands out from the grey crowd. And that’s the TRUE fascist element here. The reason so many people don’t like quality (and hate anyone who makes a case for it) is because it confronts them with their own mediocrity.

Anyway, get better soon.

*Nikolas*,

I don’t write and have never written for a hypothetical live ensemble and I have no desire whatsoever - not even the slightest - to ever hear my work performed by anyone else but me. I know that it is an aspiration of many - and a very beautiful one - but not me: an essential part of my musical work is to create the definitive versions of my pieces. I like that. My little ‘Gypsy March’, for instance, which I posted a few weeks ago is one example: written for and performed very satisfyingly by PLAY’s Gypsy violin. I really have no wish to ever hear that piece performed in any other way. 
So, I’m sorry, but I’m not the best qualified person to answer your question in the manner in which it deserves to be answered.

____

EDIT: I agree entirely with Pedro's previous post. (Except where he says that this thread is turning into nonsense. It still has all the makings of a valid exchange, I believe.)

_


----------



## nikolas

re-peat @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> dcoscina @ Sat Aug 01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Nikolas*,
> 
> I don’t write and have never written for a hypothetical live ensemble and I have no desire whatsoever - not even the slightest - to ever hear my work performed by anyone else but me. I know that it is an aspiration of many - and a very beautiful one - but not me: an essential part of my musical work is to create the definitive versions of my pieces. I like that. My little ‘Gypsy March’, for instance, which I posted a few weeks ago is one example: written for and performed very satisfyingly by PLAY’s Gypsy violin. I really have no wish to ever hear that piece performed in any other way.
> So, I’m sorry, but I’m not the best qualified person to answer your question in the manner in which it deserves to be answered.
Click to expand...

That's fine and thanks for your reply. This provides some light on where you're coming from: Your opinions are based from a single person, who's used to doing everything themselves, thus having 100% responsibility on what's happening to their music.

A miraculous idea really, but I'm in dissagreement to that, only because of the sociality attached to music. 

But I finally understand where you're coming from and I kinda agree (even if your harsh words are a bit too harsh for me, anyways).

And I do agree that this thread is not nonsenssical, but a valid experience as well.


----------



## Pedro Camacho

nikolas @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> And I'm just trying to remain as balanced as possible in terms of price point/quality of library vs result/time spent etc... There must be a valid point where you can say "ok, that's it' for every involved party.



No, please I was not offended in any way )

What you wrote here is the main difference in our point of views:

1- If I would take into account the price/library in question:
yes it is a nice work, because it doesn't suck as hard as the library could suck haha o-[][]-o 

2- (my point of view) Just hear the music, forget how it was done or what stuff used:
Geez, it really sounds horrible. =o 

You understand the difference?

I did not say I would do any better than Dan using GPO4, I would NOT use GPO4 in first place, get it?

It is quite simple and without trying to offend anyone, please respect my point of view.


----------



## lux

yawn


----------



## Jaap

I don't understand why Piet is attacked so much. I read all the posts and his critics are hard, but very honest and definately not attacking anyone personal.

I can only agree with Piet. The whole problem is that we do not know the inteniton the maker had in mind and there it goes all wrong.
I think it is good to use excisting classical pieces to practise your mockup skills, but one should know it's boundries on when to post them. It does only harm.

When I heard the mockup I was like...ewhhh. I know this piece by heart. My wife played it a lot of times as clarinet player and I did a lot of study with her as pianist playing orchestral parts for rehearsing. I love the piece and when I loaded it I automically listened as "listener" and I was biased straight from the beginning.
If I had read that Dan posted this as practise or to find the boundries within GPO I would have listened different. I still wouldn't liked the piece, but at least I could listen to his mockup and we could discuss what is good and what not.

We should be carefull on what we post since we can do much more damage then we know. My conclusion after this is that GPO is not suited and that Dan made a wrong choise.
It doesn't mean Dan is bad at mockups, but I got a wrong view by listening to this piece. It doesn't mean GPO4 is bad, only it was exposed with a wrong composition. If you want to let a library shine for demonstration purposes one should pick the composition used very carefully.

I use a lot of existing pieces to test what I can do with al ibrary. I know quickly what the limitations are then and what not. It is good to use it is a learning tool, but nothing more.

If a piece like this is exposed to us without know the intensions of the maker we get these "misunderstandings" etc and therfore I think we should be very carefull when we post things and always make clear what the intention is and to what amount you want feedback.


----------



## lux

I'm sorry but reading whats written here i'm even more convinced that re-peat used intentionally a language he could NEVER stand if used with him by anyone else. 

And this is simply clear to most people here including me. 

And its, of course, unfair. One-direction-only sensitivity.


----------



## Jaap

Somethimes only brutal honest feedback can be given if you post your work on a forum for critics. The truth is not always nice and cosy and it helps you to get a tough skin.

I have received in the beginning when I started as classical composer also very harsh critics in the newspapers. People being really brutally honest, almost to the point of insulting. 
Did I like it? Nope and it took a few years to settle down and realise they were actually right.
Same goes here. If you post a piece like Rhapsody in Blue with GPO4 you should be aware of the consequences and as I said in my previous post, people should be really aware how and what they post. Always make your intensions clear, even if it is a piece of yourself.
If somebody posts a picture of a selfmade car and he tried to make a ferarri while it has only 1% the looks of a ferarri and the rest is just horribly wrong, you should expect to get harsh critics on it. If not, the maker could start believing he actually DID a good job and that would only harm the person more in the long term.
If he gets the point that his efforts are nice, but that it sucks as final product he will realise that made a wrong choise and he should start differently otherwise he will not get there in the long term.

People should realise what they are laying there hands on. For example the Band of Brothers piece with LASS was a good choise. It was a smart choise that could show the strength of a library without destroying the composition and he also made very clear it was just to show the strenghts of the library.


----------



## germancomponist

Jaap,

Dan has not posted this piece here. o/~ 

I felt free to post it here. If I had known how this thread goes on, I'd never posted!


----------



## Waywyn

germancomponist @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> Jaap,
> 
> Dan has not posted this piece here. o/~
> 
> I felt free to post it here. If I had known how this thread goes on, I'd never posted!



Without opening a can of worms here, but everytime something with GPO or Garritan shows up in this forum, ... it ends up in more or less heavy discussion.


Generally:

Besides all this, I simply don't get it. I think there are nicer words to rip apart a mockup one doesn't like. These are harsh words being used!

I mean, even "this sounds like shit" would have been much nicer than all those things about mutilation etc.


btw: DAN, you did a great job on this. You show what the lib can't do, but also what it can ... and to be honest THIS is what I like to hear!
Demo making is not about creating art but to show what a lib can do ... and sometimes what not ... but all in all it is about selling a product.


----------



## Niah

hbuus @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> Here are the forum rules for Member Composition Reviews:
> 
> *"Forum Rules
> 
> When posting new pieces please be prepared for honest critiques of your music/productions. Many of the reviewers who frequent this forum will offer helpful advice and will not hesitate to point out problems that can actually help this and other future pieces. When reviewing try to be constructive - rather than just point out problems attempt to offer solutions. Musicians helping musicians - right? "*
> 
> Honest, constructive critique - musicians helping musicians.



Those are the rules for the member's composition review, and all these years I really feel that users here have respected that. If this piece was posted there I don't think the same would have happened, not that I think this thread belongs there but this brings me to something that I have been wondering for quite some time. 

I have been witnessing these hostile discussions on the sample talk forum from quite some time now and to me this has alot to do with how people are using the sample talk. There needs to be individual responsability on what to post on this section which seems to be used to throw everything. In my opinion this fuels alot of not so nice comments...or at least gives alot more range for people to go out and say what they really feel about something more easily without restraint or holding back.

At best I think if this had been posted on the commercial section, this thread would still be about GPO4.

Just my cents, I could be wrong.


----------



## dcoscina

re-peat, yes, I do understand where you are coming from. James Newton Howard offered a similar perspective way back in a Keyboard interview in 1999 when he offered this: "if you are composing with samples, you write to the strength of your library- if you don't have a good trumpet sound, don't use it".

I totally agree with this sentiment and I also have striven to separate the two mediums when composing. For live orchestra pieces, I will use NOTION or Sibelius and the basic sounds for tonal/timbral reference. I don't care how real it sounds because it's going to be played by real musicians and I can mostly hear that in my head (the sound sketch is more for conductors or local groups who need a reference of some sort). I would never think of writing a gliss up for horns or fast string line if I only had GPO4 and had planned to use that as the primary playback of a piece because I cannot stand those- they sound overtly artificial.

however, and this is where I get back to, GPO4m at least to me, was created as a compositional tool first and foremost, like the sounds built in to NOTION. Yes, Garritan says it can and is used for live performances but I would defer to my larger libraries if I needed absolute realism. And GPO4 is a very nice companion on my laptop where other libs like EWQLSO Gold or VSL are much too CPU intensive. Heck, I started writing a Prokofiev-like piece on my laptop using Sibelius 6 and EWQLSO Silver and my CPU hated it. It was for classical orchestra too! But all of the keyswitch programs were just too much for the poor thing.

So, at the end of the day, you are entitled to like or dislike whatever you wish to. And, as I have said before, I enjoy reading your posts 99% of the time because you have a terrific knowledge and perspective on music that I align myself with. believe me, if we all had the resources to have ALL of our music played by real orchestras and musicians, I'm sure we'd all love that. I know I would be a richer man without having spent all those $$$ over that past 30 years on gear. But we cannot and some of us have tighter budgets than others. I see GPO4 is a terrific entry into the sampled orchestral world or, as in my case, a CPU friendly compositional ally.


----------



## re-peat

lux @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> I'm sorry but reading whats written here i'm even more convinced that re-peat used intentionally a language he could NEVER stand if used with him by anyone else.
> 
> And this is simply clear to most people here including me.
> 
> And its, of course, unfair. One-direction-only sensitivity.



*Luca,*

You cannot begin to imagine how much I pine - not for the fjörds - but for someone expressing his views in a similar manner as me. Oh, how refreshing that would be. At the very least, there would be another brain to pick, discussing music. Instead of having to deal with all this wishy-washy, cowardly, patronizing, pseudo-civilized, high-moral, lecturing nonsense on good manners, personal education and decency.
By the way, loved that yawn. A real fine example of good manners. A most civilized contribution. Very educated. Well done.

And something else: before you go on assuming that 'it is simply clear to most people' that I have lost my marbles, allow me to inform you that I've received a fair share of messages from people agreeing with me. My tone may not be to everyone's liking, fair enough and I apologize for the occasional discomfort of its piercing quality, but the essence of what I'm trying to say does meet with support as well.

But no one has to agree with me, you know. It's not that I am right and everybody else is wrong. Disagree with me. Please. I beg you. As strongly as you can, if you want. But do so in a sensible, vigorous, intelligent and challenging manner, worthy of the subject and the profound passions that go with it.

You are a moderator here, for christsake. Then moderate. Do something useful. Enjoy the conflict of opinions and steer the discussion. Question what needs to be questioned, yes, but stimulate and inspire as well. You call yourself 'lux', right? Well then? Lux is light. Be one. A shining guiding light. Instead of whimpywhining and trying to extinguish every spark of fire you don't happen to like the heat of, with your sad, narrow-minded and embittered attitude.

_


----------



## dcoscina

okay, I will concede that the original author of this mock-up did not post it on this forum so any reactions to it could be done so in a candid manner because the same ground rules did not exactly apply. 

I offer an apology re-peat for singling you out and joining the mob. There are some issues that I'm as hard-nosed about (like how crappy the state of film scoring has gotten in Hollywood but that's another topic for another time) so I am officially backing off. 

However, I will say this one thing- just because I champion Dan's efforts does not make me "wimpy" and I honestly do wonder if you would be using these same adjectives if you and I or anyone else were standing face to face or whether a higher sense of consideration would compel you to modify your vernacular to something a little less...shall we say abrasive?

Now I'm off to make my morning coffee, boot up my Mac Pro, and fiddle around with LASS.


----------



## dcoscina

Waywyn @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> germancomponist @ Sat Aug 01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jaap,
> 
> Dan has not posted this piece here. o/~
> 
> I felt free to post it here. If I had known how this thread goes on, I'd never posted!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Without opening a can of worms here, but everytime something with GPO or Garritan shows up in this forum, ... it ends up in more or less heavy discussion.
> 
> 
> Generally:
> 
> Besides all this, I simply don't get it. I think there are nicer words to rip apart a mockup one doesn't like. These are harsh words being used!
> 
> I mean, even "this sounds like [email protected]#t" would have been much nicer than all those things about mutilation etc.
> 
> 
> btw: DAN, you did a great job on this. You show what the lib can't do, but also what it can ... and to be honest THIS is what I like to hear!
> Demo making is not about creating art but to show what a lib can do ... and sometimes what not ... but all in all it is about selling a product.
Click to expand...


great post Alex. =o


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

I've moved this thread to the Composition, Orchestration and Technique section.


----------



## re-peat

Dcoscina,

I have no problems with GPO 1 or 4 whatsoever. I already said so in my very first post. I recognize its superb value as a potentially very useful musical tool in many situations. It's great that it exists. Really, I mean that. And it's just wonderful that it offers many, many people an opportunity to make music.
Much of the music made it with may not be to our liking, but that is of course completely irrelevant when evaluating/discussing the tool itself. 
_


----------



## lux

lemme address this one first:



> You are a moderator here, for christsake. Then moderate. Do something useful. Enjoy the conflict of opinions and steer the discussion. Question what needs to be questioned, yes, but stimulate and inspire as well. You call yourself 'lux', right? Well then? Lux is light. Be one. A shining guiding light. Instead of whimpywhining and trying to extinguish every spark of fire you don't happen to like the heat of, with your sad, narrow-minded and embittered attitude.



No. I'm no more a moderator from a very long time, i asked Fred to remove me after a few issues with a couple of members here, it was no more fun, and i'm not sure i like how this place is looking those days. And. as it gets, i'm not much of an enlighting and inspiring guy. All moderators are listed on the forum main page. And i'm not among those.



> you cannot begin to imagine how much I pine - not for the fjörds - but for someone expressing his views in a similar manner as me. Oh, how refreshing that would be. At the very least, there would be another brain to pick, discussing music. Instead of having to deal with all this wishy-washy, cowardly, patronizing, pseudo-civilized, high-moral, lecturing nonsense on good manners, personal education and decency.



after a good analysis, and FOR ONE embraceing your "out of mind" communication manners, i think this is bullshit. And youre trying to sell it to me like a 10 years old kid who cannot admit that he made something "disputable".



> And something else: before you go on assuming that 'it is simply clear to most people' that I have lost my marbles, allow me to inform you that I've received a fair share of messages from people agreeing with me. My tone may not be to everyone's liking, fair enough and I apologize for the occasional discomfort of its piercing quality, but the essence of what I'm trying to say does meet with support as well.
> 
> But no one has to agree with me, you know. It's not that I am right and everybody else is wrong. Disagree with me. Please. I beg you. As strongly as you can, if you want. But do so in a sensible, vigorous, intelligent and challenging manner, worthy of the subject and the profound passions that go with it.



I'm glad for that. I dont wish you to become an isolated anti-social forum member. 

Anyway, this thread clearly demonstrates that lot of people we live with in a digital realm could never live with us in the real world. 

And, trust me Piet, i'm PROUD of choosing myself peole that i like, even based on their manners, whatever you think about it.

Thanks
Luca


----------



## Waywyn

re-peat @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> Dcoscina,
> 
> I have no problems with GPO 1 or 4 whatsoever. I already said so in my very first post. I recognize its superb value as a potentially very useful musical tool in many situations. It's great that it exists. Really, I mean that. And it's just wonderful that it offers many, many people an opportunity to make music.
> Much of the music made it with may not be to our liking, but that is of course completely irrelevant when evaluating/discussing the tool itself.
> _



Yeh but wouldn't it have been nicer to simply say it sounds horrible or not good, rather than using all those terms such as abnorms, dead composers rising, mutilation and whatnot all? I mean come on!

To me your kind of reaction looks either like: Too much drugs (or the wrong drugs), too less sex, failed anger managment or simply enjoying pissing off people.

Please dude, no offense but this is like gay pussy acting ... your dog ran away and now you curse the world for it ... and that little boy on the corner selling marbles get kicked in the butt, .. just because .... welll .... because


----------



## PolarBear

Ashermusic @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> Polar Bear, I am not sure why you want to pick a fight with me, but I am not interested in doing so.


JUst for the same reasons you fight a fight on Piet. The urge to teach manners, or shall I say unforgettable lessons (with emphasis on the plural here)?

Piet, disagreeing with viewpoints, expressing disagreement, and yes, what one regards not-sugar-coated truth (reflecting only the posters own opinion not generalizing others into it, fine with me) - that's one thing. Picking a myriad of different words for the same thing from the dictionary or most backpart of your head to demolish not only work but with it also persons behind the work is a completely different thing. It's what's drives people nuts with relegions mostly: fanatism. Never was a good thing.


----------



## re-peat

Waywyn @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> (...) To me your kind of reaction looks either like: Too much drugs (or the wrong drugs), too less sex, failed anger managment or simply enjoying pissing off people. Please dude, no offense but this is like gay pussy acting ... your dog ran away and now you curse the world for it ... and that little boy on the corner selling marbles get kicked in the butt, .. just because .... welll .... because



And with this kind of language you dare asking me why I couldn’t have been a “a bit nicer”? Very strange.
Please, Alex, don’t do this. You're making a complete fool of yourself. Using this silly macho talk to request nicer communication from me, is utterly ridiculous. 

So, why not reconsider your strategy first, and then come back, OK?

_


----------



## Waywyn

re-peat @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> Waywyn @ Sat Aug 01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> (...) To me your kind of reaction looks either like: Too much drugs (or the wrong drugs), too less sex, failed anger managment or simply enjoying pissing off people. Please dude, no offense but this is like gay pussy acting ... your dog ran away and now you curse the world for it ... and that little boy on the corner selling marbles get kicked in the butt, .. just because .... welll .... because
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And with this kind of language you dare asking me why I couldn’t have been a “a bit nicer”? Very strange.
> Please, Alex, don’t do this. You're making a complete fool of yourself. Using this silly macho talk to request nicer communication from me, is utterly ridiculous.
> 
> So, why not reconsider your strategy first, and then come back, OK?
> 
> _
Click to expand...


Hey, nothing personal, but I am just holding up that big mirror, ok?
... and I sometimes to ask people to maybe try thinking the same way, since when doing this it always changes some ways BEFORE acting.

I mean, imagine you would have posted a piece, demo, track or whatever, you invested blood, sweat and tears and then someone would stumble in and not just rip the piece apart which is okay, but mentions silly stuff such as "abomination" and composers rising from the dead, taking puters away and all that shit. Comeon! You act like somebody has puked upon you ... and even if you feel like it by hearing something ... it was just virtually!


----------



## billval3

I wish they had more info/demos on their website. I probably wouldn't be considering it, but the $50 upgrade price is awfully appealing...perhaps just to use the included SAM brass, which I don't own otherwise.


----------



## billval3

P.S. For what it's worth, I just realized that this demo is what is featured on the home page of garritan's website right now. Without getting into any arguments about what's insulting, too critical, etc. it DOES make me think it invites a higher level of criticism. 

In other words, it's not the same thing as a user posting something for his friends to comment on. I realize the author didn't originally post it here, but I think the place that it was originally posted makes it fair game.


----------



## Ashermusic

PolarBear @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sat Aug 01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Polar Bear, I am not sure why you want to pick a fight with me, but I am not interested in doing so.
> 
> 
> 
> JUst for the same reasons you fight a fight on Piet. The urge to teach manners, or shall I say unforgettable lessons (with emphasis on the plural here)?
> 
> Piet, disagreeing with viewpoints, expressing disagreement, and yes, what one regards not-sugar-coated truth (reflecting only the posters own opinion not generalizing others into it, fine with me) - that's one thing. Picking a myriad of different words for the same thing from the dictionary or most backpart of your head to demolish not only work but with it also persons behind the work is a completely different thing. It's what's drives people nuts with relegions mostly: fanatism. Never was a good thing.
Click to expand...


Well, originally Piet picked a fight with me, and I long ago forgave him for that. I have since interacted very pleasantly with him on several forums, and he is a very good source of recommendations, tips, etc. And once again, I have attacked no one's work, just their ideas. Piet is a fine composer. I also said I believe he is a decent human being. I do believe he has some psychological issues that manifest themselves in this kind of interaction. And yes, that is probably true of me, you and most of us, but to a greater degree with Piet IMHO.

I think if someone posts a piece here, asking for comments, they now know exactly what possibly awaits them, and if they are willing to tolerate it, fine.

The problem is that DP Dan's mockup was not posted here by DP Dan looking for comments. It was posted on a website to demonstrate a product and then innocently posted here by germancompanist. So Dan neither asked for nor welcomed Piet's harsh comments. 

So I think perhaps the mods need to make a rule that no one can post another's work without expressly getting permission from them (and warning them what can happen here), just their own.


----------



## billval3

Ashermusic @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> PolarBear @ Sat Aug 01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ashermusic @ Sat Aug 01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Polar Bear, I am not sure why you want to pick a fight with me, but I am not interested in doing so.
> 
> 
> 
> JUst for the same reasons you fight a fight on Piet. The urge to teach manners, or shall I say unforgettable lessons (with emphasis on the plural here)?
> 
> Piet, disagreeing with viewpoints, expressing disagreement, and yes, what one regards not-sugar-coated truth (reflecting only the posters own opinion not generalizing others into it, fine with me) - that's one thing. Picking a myriad of different words for the same thing from the dictionary or most backpart of your head to demolish not only work but with it also persons behind the work is a completely different thing. It's what's drives people nuts with relegions mostly: fanatism. Never was a good thing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, originally Piet picked a fight with me, and I long ago forgave him for that. I have since interacted very pleasantly with him on several forums, and he is a very good source of recommendations, tips, etc. And once again, I have attacked no one's work, just their ideas. Piet is a fine composer. I also said I believe he is a decent human being. I do believe he has some psychological issues that manifest themselves in this kind of interaction. And yes, that is probably true of me, you and most of us, but to a greater degree with Piet IMHO.
> 
> I think if someone posts a piece here, asking for comments, they now know exactly what possibly awaits them, and if they are willing to tolerate it, fine.
> 
> The problem is that DP Dan's mockup was not posted here by DP Dan looking for comments. It was posted on a website to demonstrate a product and then innocently posted here by germancompanist. So Dan neither asked for nor welcomed Piet's harsh comments.
> 
> So I think perhaps the mods need to make a rule that no one can post another's work without expressly getting permission from them (and warning them what can happen here), just their own.
Click to expand...


Please see my above post. Don't you think having something posted in such a prominent place invites criticism? I'm not trying to defend re-peat's tone, but I guess I just understand where he's coming from. 

Here's what garritan.com says about it:



> Dan Kury, a musician extraordinaire, has produced a rendition of Rhapsody In Blue - the musical masterpiece by George Gershwin. Everything was recorded using Garritan Libraries. The vast majority of instruments were from GPO4 except jazz band instruments from Jazz Big Band, the solo Stradivari and the Garritan Authorized Steinway. Enjoy Dan's monumental performance of Rhapsody in Blue.



Monumental performance? HUH?!?

Mr. Kury may very well be an incredible musician, but this mock-up doesn't demonstrate it and calling it monumental is a little beyond laughable, don't you think?


----------



## Ian Dorsch

billval3 @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> P.S. For what it's worth, I just realized that this demo is what is featured on the home page of garritan's website right now. Without getting into any arguments about what's insulting, too critical, etc. it DOES make me think it invites a higher level of criticism.
> 
> In other words, it's not the same thing as a user posting something for his friends to comment on. I realize the author didn't originally post it here, but I think the place that it was originally posted makes it fair game.



Agreed 100%.

And as a demo, it's quite valuable to me, because it saved me $50. :lol:


----------



## Hans Adamson

I think the discussion should be more about the point re-peat was making, and less about his way of expressing his reaction to the mockup. Vi-Control is definitely a place that should include a spectrum where stringently opinionated but blunt contributors are allowed. If you disagree with re-peat, discuss why you think differently. I agree with jaap, and I think this was maybe not the best piece to show off GPO. Garritan should thank re-peat for the comment and remove the demo, or at least cut it before the tutti parts. Some times blunt truth can be of help.


----------



## billval3

Ian Dorsch @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> billval3 @ Sat Aug 01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. For what it's worth, I just realized that this demo is what is featured on the home page of garritan's website right now. Without getting into any arguments about what's insulting, too critical, etc. it DOES make me think it invites a higher level of criticism.
> 
> In other words, it's not the same thing as a user posting something for his friends to comment on. I realize the author didn't originally post it here, but I think the place that it was originally posted makes it fair game.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed 100%.
> 
> And as a demo, it's quite valuable to me, because it saved me $50. :lol:
Click to expand...


I'm not convinced it's not worth my $50. As Hans says above, this probably isn't the best piece (or mock-up) to show off its sound. Not that I'm expecting something on par with more expensive libraries, I'm just guessing it could be presented in a better light.


----------



## dcoscina

What I cannot fathom is that this is the same bunch who laud Media Ventures/Remote Control, an organization that has done more widespread damage to the integrity of music than any small mock-up done by DPDan or otherwise....

Some may see this is a non-sequitur but I think it's a telling illustration of the inconsistency in musical morality that exists among some on this forum.


----------



## Guy Bacos

I would of been less colorful in my criticisms towards this mockup but at the same time and I told Dan the same thing in a private email: "You should of been specific in telling Gunther about your intentions with this mockup, so you are also responsible for the harsh criticisms." If ever Dan wanted to compete with the superior lib with what he used than he shot himself in the foot and its a fact that he will have to accept. But if his intentions were otherwise than it shouldn't really bother him, other than a few tactless posts, since it was just a case of misunderstanding. 

So I really don't see what the big fuss is anymore.


----------



## Niah

Hans Adamson @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> I think the discussion should be more about the point re-peat was making, and less about his way of expressing his reaction to the mockup. Vi-Control is definitely a place that should include a spectrum where stringently opinionated but blunt contributors are allowed. If you disagree with re-peat, discuss why you think differently. I agree with jaap, and I think this was maybe not the best piece to show off GPO. Garritan should thank re-peat for the comment and remove the demo, or at least cut it before the tutti parts. Some times blunt truth can be of help.



I couldn't agree more.

This is exactly what makes VI control so special and unique from the rest of the communities and must be preserved IMO.


----------



## germancomponist

So many pieces were linked here and there in a thread not by the composers. 

"Hey, have you listend to that?", or links to an youtube video. I was impressed what Dan did with the Garritan libs, so I linked it here.

I never have read such comments as here in this thread are written. I know some people have a problem when it comes to Garritan libraries, but please! 

I think perhaps it is better to delete this thread. Hope in the future some people here will get friendlyer!

Gunther


----------



## lux

Niah @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> Hans Adamson @ Sat Aug 01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the discussion should be more about the point re-peat was making, and less about his way of expressing his reaction to the mockup. Vi-Control is definitely a place that should include a spectrum where stringently opinionated but blunt contributors are allowed. If you disagree with re-peat, discuss why you think differently. I agree with jaap, and I think this was maybe not the best piece to show off GPO. Garritan should thank re-peat for the comment and remove the demo, or at least cut it before the tutti parts. Some times blunt truth can be of help.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I couldn't agree more.
> 
> This is exactly what makes VI control so special and unique from the rest of the communities and must be preserved IMO.
Click to expand...


yeah, why dont we punch eachother to death?

i would say Tiago that, being among the founders here, i'm not sure this is true. Vi control is not a good place because of unmannered members and harsh speaking.

Vi control has been a special place because its full of Vi's/samples lovers and adopters and they can have whatever opinion about whatever, without censorship.

I just think that it makes sense for every human being differencing from monkeys adopting a civil sense in discussions. There is nothing nice, unless you are a very destructive person, in a mess of people trying to hurt eachothers.

Luca


----------



## Guy Bacos

lux @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> yeah, why dont we punch eachother to death?
> 
> Luca


 :D


----------



## lux

well i probably resulted too harsh with Tiago, i know what he means. Its just that i give a certain relevance to fair play, even if i know there is some truth or interesting analysis.

I have similar feelings about the mockup than re-peat and others. Just for the record.


----------



## rayinstirling

lux @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> yeah, why dont we punch eachother to death?
> 
> i would say Tiago that, being among the founders here, i'm not sure this is true. Vi control is not a good place because of unmannered members and harsh speaking.
> 
> Vi control has been a special place because its full of Vi's/samples lovers and adopters and they can have whatever opinion about whatever, without censorship.
> 
> I just think that it makes sense for every human being differencing from monkeys adopting a civil sense in discussions. There is nothing nice, unless you are a very destructive person, in a mess of people trying to hurt eachothers.
> 
> Luca


Luca,

You keep spouting this high and mighty talk but!
The escalation of this war of words and thoughts has been perpetrated and fanned by YOU! You are a stirrer of the highest ranking. If all those replying to this thread simply gave their own opinion without commenting on others the world would be a happier place.

Go read nearly everyone of your posts and tell me it isn't true.

I'm finished with this thread now

Ta Ra


----------



## Waywyn

dcoscina @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> .... Media Ventures/Remote Control, an organization that has done more widespread damage to the integrity of music than any small mock-up done by DPDan or otherwise.....



What a fuck load of crap!!! Sorry!! ... please, NOT again!!! We all know you hate 'em ... don't spam the forum with your "I hate RC" attitude.


----------



## lux

rayinstirling @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> lux @ Sat Aug 01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> yeah, why dont we punch eachother to death?
> 
> i would say Tiago that, being among the founders here, i'm not sure this is true. Vi control is not a good place because of unmannered members and harsh speaking.
> 
> Vi control has been a special place because its full of Vi's/samples lovers and adopters and they can have whatever opinion about whatever, without censorship.
> 
> I just think that it makes sense for every human being differencing from monkeys adopting a civil sense in discussions. There is nothing nice, unless you are a very destructive person, in a mess of people trying to hurt eachothers.
> 
> Luca
> 
> 
> 
> Luca,
> 
> You keep spouting this high and mighty talk but!
> The escalation of this war of words and thoughts has been perpetrated and fanned by YOU! You are a stirrer of the highest ranking. If all those replying to this thread simply gave their own opinion without commenting on others the world would be a happier place.
> 
> Go read nearly everyone of your posts and tell me it isn't true.
> 
> I'm finished with this thread now
> 
> Ta Ra
Click to expand...


it isnt true.

Anyway, its getting annoying, i'm done with it too.


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## Guy Bacos

Em, maybe we should refocus on some the new music posted here? :D


----------



## dcoscina

Waywyn @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> dcoscina @ Sat Aug 01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> .... Media Ventures/Remote Control, an organization that has done more widespread damage to the integrity of music than any small mock-up done by DPDan or otherwise.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What a f#@k load of crap!!! Sorry!! ... please, NOT again!!! We all know you hate 'em ... don't spam the forum with your "I hate RC" attitude.
Click to expand...


sorry Alex. :oops:


----------



## dcoscina

Guy Bacos @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> Maybe we should refocus on some the new music posted here? :D



I agree. 

to take a step back, I for my part should not judge those who do not share my views. I can also make a better effort to articulate anything in a critical tenor in a more civilized manner to avoid blow-ups, melt downs and alienating people on this forum that I respect and whose knowledge and opinions I value.

Dave


----------



## Waywyn

dcoscina @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> Waywyn @ Sat Aug 01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dcoscina @ Sat Aug 01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> .... Media Ventures/Remote Control, an organization that has done more widespread damage to the integrity of music than any small mock-up done by DPDan or otherwise.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What a f#@k load of crap!!! Sorry!! ... please, NOT again!!! We all know you hate 'em ... don't spam the forum with your "I hate RC" attitude.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> sorry Alex. :oops:
Click to expand...


David, just to maybe explain it with a bit of light shed on that topic.

If you want to go "pro" one day, it may not be the best way to always bash around on "those" teams or composers etc. ... it's not like those guys are sitting in the clouds playing harp all day and are outside reach ... they read, they listen to demos, they are around in the internet as we are ... everything's possible, nothing has to.


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## dcoscina

I understand Alex. I know you're trying to give me some good, realistic advice and I appreciate it. Luckily, in spite of my overt disdain for the aforementioned company's practices, I have forged some connections in LA with some people in the industry who are more aligned with my (admittedly) traditional mindset towards music for film. I'm helping out one such person on a couple of projects right now. 

But once again, I do appreciate your advice. And for the record, John Powell is one of my favorite current composers. I don't think there is a single score of his I dislike. Very excited to hear his next score.


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## re-peat

*Luca, *

Where do you keep finding the creepy arrogance to decide for all of us what is acceptable and what is not? Where did you ever earn the moral authority to decide who is entitled to feel hurt and who isn't? Really, if ANYONE here has a any serious right to feel hurt, it’s me. I’ve been called - and read this carefully - _a nazi_ (twice!), _a useless waste of skin, a turd, uncivilized, uneducated, a bad human being, someone who has psychological issues and needs therapy, an Asperger patient, a snob, delusional, someone with failed anger management, unmannered, possibly suffering from too much drugs or too little sex, a hypocrit, acting like a little boy that lost his dog or got kicked in the butt, something weird about 'gay pussy acting''_ (which I don't understand), _a useless creature,_ ... and some other unpleasant stuff. Amazing isn't it? All in one thread. 
But do I feel hurt? No, I don’t. Not one bit. I'm too much of a self-confident, insensitive bastard, I'm affraid. Extremely difficult to hurt us lot. So for crying out loud, don’t you come in here deciding for all of us what is hurtful and what isn't. If Mr Kurdy feels hurt, then let him say so himself. You're neither mandated or equipped to do so in his place.

-----

Turning my attention away from Luca and talking some more about Mr. Kury: despite my undiminished, profound dislike for all things 'mock-up', I actually have a few good things to say about his version of the 'Rhapsody In Blue' as well. (A bit of disappointment, I find, that it should come from me, but obviously none of you High Priests of Good Manners & Decent Behaviour are capable enough to formulate anything sensible - let alone, interesting - beyond the usual, lazy and meaningless platitudes when it comes to discussing music.)

Anyway, the *Rhapsody*. The first thing that struck me - and, seriously: all that follows is 100% sincere - is the admirable fact that Mr. Kury doesn't seem to want to 'overjazz' the piece. He understands that all the jazz is already in the notes themselves and that no more (or very little anyway) needs to be added by the performer/interpreter. Exaggerating the jazz element in the Rhapsody is, in my view, an often-heard mistake which makes the performance by, for example, Tilson-Thomas such an unenjoyable affair to listen to. Even Leonard Bernstein, I find, has difficulty containing himself not to perform the pianopart with various jazzy mannerisms. Kury's, on the other hand, is a pretty straight and sec interpretation and that is, in my opinion, precisely how the Rhapsody should be performed. So, that I like. I also like many of the tempi that Mr. Kury has chosen (be it that some of the transitions maybe aim for too much drama which, again, the Rhapsody doesn't really need). All of which convince me that Mr. Kury would make an excellent conductor of the piece.

_


----------



## dcoscina

Great post re-peat. I will add that that little section Dan highlights the portamento on was both interesting and I thought the brass/strings sound rather convincing. I also know he's like Yoda with Digital Performer so I learned something new.


----------



## Ashermusic

re-peat @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> *, someone who has psychological issues and needs therapy, an Asperger patient
> _*


*

Since I am responsible for these two, let me say that if you MAYBE are Asperger's, that would not be your fault, anymore than it is my relatives fault.

And yes, clearly, you do have psychological issues and could use some therapy, but as I said that applies to most of us here. IMHO, after watching your behavior in the past, I think it applies to you more than most as I do not see your behavior as normative. That is not meant as an insult, it is just how I see it.

You and others are of course entitled to think I am full of what makes the grass grow green, and that is fine.*


----------



## Ian Dorsch

billval3 @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> I'm not convinced it's not worth my $50. As Hans says above, this probably isn't the best piece (or mock-up) to show off its sound. Not that I'm expecting something on par with more expensive libraries, I'm just guessing it could be presented in a better light.



Sure, I can definitely see that. I've gotten a lot of quality use out of GPO 2.0, I'm really not intending to knock the product. It's great for what it is. I just don't hear anything in Dan's demo that convinces me that it would be worth the $50 to upgrade. I am still open to being convinced otherwise.


----------



## lux

re-peat @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> *Luca, *
> 
> Where do you keep finding the creepy arrogance to decide for all of us what is acceptable and what is not? Where did you ever earn the moral authority to decide who is entitled to feel hurt and who isn't? Really, if ANYONE here has a any serious right to feel hurt, it’s me. I’ve been called - and read this carefully - _a nazi_ (twice!), _a useless waste of skin, a turd, uncivilized, uneducated, a bad human being, someone who has psychological issues and needs therapy, an Asperger patient, a snob, delusional, someone with failed anger management, unmannered, possibly suffering from too much drugs or too little sex, a hypocrit, acting like a little boy that lost his dog or got kicked in the butt, something weird about 'gay pussy acting''_ (which I don't understand), _a useless creature,_ ... and some other unpleasant stuff. Amazing isn't it? All in one thread.
> But do I feel hurt? No, I don’t. Not one bit. I'm too much of a self-confident, insensitive bastard, I'm affraid. Extremely difficult to hurt us lot. So for crying out loud, don’t you come in here deciding for all of us what is hurtful and what isn't. If Mr Kurdy feels hurt, then let him say so himself. You're neither mandated or equipped to do so in his place.



haha, its funny how much your anger shoots out of your "thick" skin every time you post at me, i'm having a good laugh.

"do i feel hurt?"...."no!!"..

I think we can close this unuseful posts exchange on this enjoyable and cinematic quote by mr De RIdder.

Bye
Luca


----------



## synergy543

re-peat @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> *Greg,*
> 
> What’s gotten into you, if I may ask? I’m accustomed to a much kinder and wiser Greg, one that I really liked talking to, as it happens. Has he gone? What made you decide to join the lynch mob in this thread. And don’t tell me it is because of what I wrote, because the Greg I used to know, would have had no problem in using the apparently provocative nature of my views as a platform for a healthy and interesting discussion. (That’s what I miss so much in this thread, you know: someone to talk to.) Anyway, I never said that people aren’t allowed to enjoy mock-ups. I merely stated that I really don’t see what there is to enjoy in the first place.


Hi Piet,

I am a very dynamic and passionate person just as you seem to be. And generally, I'm a very gentle kind person although there is another side of me too. I just can't stand watching people hurt others as you were doing to Dan and that brought out the vigilante in me. Essentially, as David and others were doing, I was simply trying to hold up a mirror to reflect your own behavior and criteria back upon yourself. Well, I'm glad now that you have dramatically changed your tone, although I do think you still owe Dan an apology. But if you're "above that", then, "what-e-v-e-r". I think Dan is a big boy and knows that others respect him for who he is (a generous kind sharing person) and what he does (he excels with mockups and mixing). You hate "mockups" (we "get that") but you don't have to denigrate Dan personally calling him disgusting names and such. We can be passionate and critical with each other without potty mouthing each other and throwing "poo-poo".

In fact, your change in tone (minus your apology) allows us to get somewhat back on track discussing about music. Dan has done a lot of pieces where I truly admired his interpretation and realization. This however, was not my favorite. Although watching Dan's video, I am still in awe with his creative approach using DP which also one of the sequencers I use - and this was enlightening to me. As I didn't care for the realization of this piece, I didn't spend too much time analyzing it either - I just didn't feel much from it and it had a bit of that organ characteristic at times that I don't care for much in large orchestral realizations. Nevertheless, it just wasn't one of Dan's highlights in my mind although I don't have any less respect for Dan.

As to your view on mockups, and "bad music", surely we can all relate to that. Its too easy to churn out bad music with synths and samples. And the general public, with its newly acquired "mp3 whatever mentality" seems immune to the onslaught of bad music - but what the heck, its free anywho so what's to complain about? Unfortunately, music seems to have taken a backseat to flashy film graphics and I know of very very few people who can sit down and actually listen to a piece of music anymore for more than a few minutes without talking. Truely, its rather sad. So I can understand your crusade for good music. However for me, a good piece of music can be done with samples as well as with real instruments. Of course, real musicians have more control over subtle nuances and expression but I have also heard some inspiring work done with samples as well that I admire - including your work.

For me, mockups are a fantastic way to learn and develop skills both as an orchestrator and composer as well as performing skills. Thus, I applaud people attempting serious mockup realizations. In fact, I think there are too few of them. I hear some pretty bad stuff sometimes and I think, gee, this person has never really studied the masters doing mockups or they would have learned better orchestration skills - which means better music. So, the very thing you crusade against, may lead towards the salvation of better music which you so much desire. Whereas, being rude to each other, is hardly an effective means towards achieving your laudable goal.


----------



## Waywyn

re-peat @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> I’ve been called - and read this carefully - _a nazi_ (twice!), _a useless waste of skin, a turd, uncivilized, uneducated, a bad human being, someone who has psychological issues and needs therapy, an Asperger patient, a snob, delusional, someone with failed anger management, unmannered, possibly suffering from too much drugs or too little sex, a hypocrit, acting like a little boy that lost his dog or got kicked in the butt, something weird about 'gay pussy acting''_ (which I don't understand), _a useless creature,_ ... and some other unpleasant stuff. Amazing isn't it? All in one thread.



I have to admit, some is quite harsh, some is from me ...  .... , but let me ask you one more question. Do you sort of seriously wonder??
I mean WHY do you wonder, when you were the first, stating that someone created an abomination and you'd wish dead composers rise from their grave to take his computer away ... please think about it for a while.


----------



## Ashermusic

re-peat @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> *Luca, *
> 
> 
> which makes the performance by, for example, Tilson-Thomas such an unenjoyable affair to listen to. Even Leonard Bernstein, I find, has difficulty containing himself not to perform the pianopart with various jazzy mannerisms.
> 
> _



Hey, Dan, if you return, you are in good company; Kury, Bernstein and Tilson-Thomas


----------



## re-peat

*Greg, *

Excuse me, but when did I ever call Mr. Kury _disgusting names_? Point me to the spot and I’ll apologize at once. You can’t find any, can you? (I, on the other hand, can point you to at least three spots where your ‘generous kind sharing person’ used rather questionnable vocabulary to describe me.) 

What I did - and, if called for, will do again tomorrow with the exact same intensity - was express and argument my dislike for unimaginative mock-ups of classical pieces in general and this excruciatingly bad rendition of the ‘Rhapsody’ in particular, which I consider a prime example of ‘an unimaginative mock-up of a classical piece’. 
I don’t owe anyone an apology, least of all Mr. Kury. I really don’t. I always know _very well_ when I crossed a line and owe someone an apology, and I will always do so with utmost sincerity, but this is not one of those moments, I’m affraid. Mr. Kury has produced a substandard version of a good piece of music (and I'm being polite in my description here), allowed the results to be aired in public ... and I reacted. That’s all. 

And frankly, while on the subject, I am extremely suspicious of his so-called 'kind generosity'. It seems to me that Mr Kury needs to be praised first - submissively and devotionaly - before he will put on the mask of ‘generous, kind sharing person’. A mask which he definitely forgot to wear in his single post in this thread. Sorry, but that was not the language of a kind and generous person, that was the language of a wholly different and far less sympathetic character, if you ask me. 

And regarding that video: I am truly sorry, but I really fail to see what’s so spectacularly creative about using a good-working, built-in feature of a professional music software package. We all do that every day, don’t we? Yes, Mr. Kury is probably an expert user of Digital Performer. So what? I know dozens of people who are expert users of their chosen software, and are willing to share their expertise. There’s nothing about that which strikes me as particulary exceptionnal or deserving of special awe. After all, it is _our craft_, isn’t it? Using software to make music, that is what we all do, yes? What’s so special about it, then?

I agree entirely with your view on mock-ups - I’ve already said it myself that they can have tremendous educational value - but I keep asking: why not keep the fruits of that labour in the privacy of one’s studio? Why release these inferior sounding versions (of works which deserve and were intended for a completely different, much true-er and authentic sounding medium) onto the public and expect applause and respect (and feel gravely insulted by the person who refuses to be so stupid to give it)? Why?

Like I said, I have a certain respect for some of Mr. Kury’s musical instincts - there are moments in his Rhapsody which speak of an unmistakeable musical gift - but I certainly am not impressed by him turning that piece of music into an awful piece of lifeless, synthetic sounding muck and then demanding respect for it. I really consider that a perverse abuse. (In case you worry: all of this was written in a perfectly tranquil state.)

*Alex,*

Yes, I do “sort of wonder seriously”. I wonder very much in fact. I’m a wonderful person. I have meticulously thought about and carefully considered and re-considered every single word that I wrote in this thread. And I would write it again, word for word, next week if I feel there is a valid reason to do. I don’t take back a single word of what I said during the whole course of this thread. 
I wonder (you see that I do?): would you ask the same question to Mr. Kury? “Dan, would you consider not releasing any more of your dreadful mock-ups? Some people find them quite hurtful and offensive.” Would you?

_


----------



## germancomponist

Frederick ?


----------



## synergy543

re-peat @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> Excuse me, but when did I ever call Mr. Kury _disgusting names_? Point me to the spot and I’ll apologize at once._


On this same page, in your post above, you refer to him as "Mr. Kurdy": 



re-peat @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> If Mr Kurdy feels hurt, then let him say so himself


His name is "Dan Kury"; not "Kurdy"

Must 'a been a Freudian slip? Although, if you don't "get it" by now, you're missin a lot more than that. I clearly misjudged your position. It seems you bristle at the slightest criticism of yourself but have no mercy denouncing others. And who are you to judge and decree what others do with their work? That they should keep mockups hidden in shame in their own studios is patently absurd! Its when your "Nazi" like attitudes such as that arise, others will be sure to comment.

I feel for you man, clearly there is something wrong - a character flaw you cannot see, you cannot correct. 

Quite sad for an otherwise talented person.


----------



## artsoundz

Piet is doing just fine. There isnt anything more wrong with the guy than the rest of us and ,frankly. I wish I were as together as he seems to be.

And I thought the dead composers rising from their graves to take away computers comment was very.very,funny. Huge.: )

It's just NOT personal-why doesnt anyone get that? There were things said subsequent to his post-advocating violence for one that were really truly disturbing yet no one caught that. weird. Alex- so far and above worse than anything said here. So deeply personal and destructive.

I think Dan ought to move forward and create his own music. It seems as though he's reached the pinnacle of his craft especially w/regard to GPO and it's time to grow into something else? Dont mean to be rude or suggest I know whats best for him but I'm just a little bored with the music and it's just not impressive although I know th skills neede ARE impressive-if that makes any sense.

And ,it realy did sound bad. A great demo for what GPO simply cannot accomplish. NOTHING personal meant by that.


----------



## _taylor




----------



## Lunatique

Just about all mockups will sound limited compared to the original, and I guess the question is, at what point does someone say "No, don't bother."? Does it stop at GPO? Does it stop at Kirk Hunter? Does it stop at EWQL or VSL? Or are we talking about a complete stop to the practice altogether and only use sample libraries to create original music? What do we gain and lose by doing that?

For me mocking up a well-known piece of music is fine as long as people who listen keep in mind that it will have limitations and there's no point in expecting otherwise--just see it as a demonstration of the library's pros and cons, and this is especially true with lower-end products that were never meant to do more. I personally thank all the people who do mockups because they help me decide on the libraries to get or avoid for specific needs. I don't care what their motivations were for doing the mockups. If everyone only composed original music with sample libraries and composed to their strengths, I'd never know what the shortcomings of the libraries are before I purchased them!

As for the personal criticisms, I have a story to share. I'm a bit of a reformed tactless self-righteous ass. When I was younger (childhood up to mid-twenties was bad, then slightly better up to early 30's. Starting about early 30's I've been pretty good), I would express my opinions without any tact. I felt like it was my right to express myself uncensored so my points are made with absolute honesty, conviction, and the intensity of those points are noted and thus helps drive the point home. Sometimes people would agree with sentiments like "Hell yeah, right on bro!" and sometimes people would call me out as an insensitive arrogant jerk. Then there are those who would try to "translate" what I said with more civilized versions and sort of explain that I'm not a bad person--I'm just very passionate and headstrong. Eventually I thought to myself--wouldn't it be nice if I could express my thoughts without all the extra complications and simplyò)   «aº)   «a»)   «a¼)   «a½)   «a¾)   «a¿)   «aÀ)   «aÁ)   «aÂ)   «aÃ)   «aÄ)   «aÅ)   «aÆ)   «aÇ)   «aÈ)   «aÉ)   «aÊ)   «aË)   «aÌ)   «aÍ)   «aÎ)   «aÏ)   «aÐ)   «aÑ)   «aÒ)   «aÓ)   «aÔ)   «aÕ)   «aÖ)   «a×)   «aØ)   «aÙ)   «aÚ)   «aÛ)   «aÜ)   «aÝ)   «aÞ)   «aß)   «aà)   «aá)   «aâ)   «aã)   «aä)   «aå)   «aæ)   «aç)   «aè)   «aé)   «aê)   «aë)   «aì)   «aí)   «aî)   «aï)   «að)   «añ)   «aò)   «aó)   «aô)   «aõ)   «aö)   «a÷)   «aø)   «aù)   «aú)   «aû)   «aü)   «aý)   «aþ)   «aÿ)   «b )   «b)   «b)   «b)   «b)   «b)   «b)   «b)   «b)   «b	)   «b
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## re-peat

*Lunatique,*

I’m well aware that I have been extremely tactless throughout the better part of this thread. Often bordering on the unacceptable, yes. Probably even crossing the line occasionaly. You know why? Two reasons. 

Firstly, when I first listened to Mr. Kury’s version of the Rhapsody, I was literally steaming with anger. Furious I was. I simply couldn’t (and still can’t) understand that anyone would do such a thing to a (great) piece of music. (Hence the strong words ‘rape’, ‘violation’, ‘mutilation’ and such.) It’s been said that great pieces of music aren’t like the Bible or the Koran or some other sacred texts, implying that spitting on them is nowhere near as objectionable as spitting on sacred objects. Well, to me great music is _exactly as important_ as sacred objects may be to other people. Call it a totally absurd, unrealistic or even crazy exaggeration if you like, but that’s how it is. Music is life, to me.
I'm also profoundly saddened by the fact that people just keep accepting all this tasteless drivel and feel somehow obliged to even say nice things about it. Why don't more people dare to stand up to simply say: "Sorry, but this won't do. This is bad."

Secondly, a certain degree of tactlessness awakens people. And it creates awareness. I’ve been tactless before. I’ve been very tactless with various members on this forum for instance (often ending in me having to apologize). But, without exception, it always resulted in those people being more awake to, and aware of, the issue(s) at hand. Something which, once the initial indignation had died down, they came to appreciate very, very much. Without me (or anyone else) being tactless, that stage would never have been reached. It's a case of having to break eggs in order to make an omelet.
Let’s imagine for a second that I had reacted to the Rhapsody in a much nicer and more civilized way. I could easily have said: “Impressive work, Mr Kury! Not exactly my favourite version of this piece, but very well done nonetheless.” (Cause I have no problem recognizing the fact that programming the whole of the ‘Rhapsody In Blue’ in a DAW must have been a tremendous amount of work. By itself, an impressive achievement, whichever way you care to look at it.) But then what? Then this thread would have lasted maybe a few more similar posts, after which everyone would have gone back to sleep. 
Now however, with me saying what I said, people are giving the matter − an important one, I feel − some thought. They are bewildered by the excessive rudeness, so they start thinking about it. Which is good. Maybe they agree, or they don’t agree − either way is perfectly fine by me − but, at the very least, the issue is being given some serious thought.

In the long run, it won’t change anything, I realize that − Mr. Kury is probably already hard at work on his next mock-up and so he should be, and most people have been lulled into far too deep a sleep, for any amount of tactlessness to be able to awake them thoroughly and permanently (and also: being awake can be a very fatigueing state to be in) − but for this very short time (a measely 5 tumultuous pages on a relatively small musician’s forum) maybe someone, even if it is just one person, might start to think just a little bit differently about certain things.


*Greg,*

“Kurdy” instead of “Kury”, one single typing error - the ‘d’ being just below the ’r’ on my keyboard -, is that it???? That’s what you consider _disgusting namecalling_? Oh dear. I must admit: I am a bit perplexed now. All that indignation because of a typing error??

(In all seriousness and to avoid further unfortunate misunderstandings in the future: is the word ‘kurdy’ something unspeakably offensive or something? A very dirty slang word perhaps, that I know nothing about? Cause I really I have no idea - honestly - why you have so much difficulty with it and where the ‘Freudian slip’ might enter into this.)

_


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## synergy543

Oh dear Piet, "Kurdy" is absolutely the most terrible word in the world, you must never repeat it again! 

curd   (kûrd)    
n.  
1.	The part of milk that coagulates when the milk sours or is treated with enzymes. Curd is used to make cheese.
2.	A coagulated liquid that resembles milk curd.
intr. & tr.v.   curd·ed, curd·ing, curds
To form or cause to form into curd; curdle.

[Middle English, variant of crud; probably akin to crowden, to press; see crowd1.]
curd'y adj.

I am "so" relieved to know that all this silly discussion was over a mis-typed keystroke. So silly of us all. 
Maybe you and Dan should get together and have that cold beer to celebrate such a ridiculous misunderstanding. :roll:


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## Lunatique

re-peat - I can totally understand what you just wrote. I was the exact same way. I felt that the blunt force of my conviction and passion would shake people up and it would make them think. In reality, in did, for the people who are receptive to such approach, but on the other hand, I alienated and offend just as many people if not more, and some of them are people I respect and admire, or even have affection for. 

So, I thought there must be some way of expressing the same intensity but without offending anyone. Your example of the polite version is overly polite and sterile--it doesn't have to go that extreme either. Something in the middle would have been perfectly fine. Express your opinion, but substitute the really offensive words with ones less so but still strong enough. You're obviously a very intelligent guy who communicates well--I'm sure you more than have it in you to be able to write a version that is thought-provoking without resorting to shoving indignation and shame down the throat of others. I would be very surprised if you said you can't find a way to do that. 

See, my wife is the designated diplomat of our household because she has a way with people. She could say exactly what's on her mind without offending others, because she is a genuinely kind and nurturing person, and often her anger is pushed aside by her will to want to help others see things different and to learn from their mistakes. She's like that loving aunt who could tell you that you are being an ass, but do it with love and encouragement for you to want to be better. My wife makes me look bad. I'm a better person because of her approach in dealing with people, and I still have far to go.


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## Waywyn

re-peat @ Sun Aug 02 said:


> I wonder (you see that I do?): would you ask the same question to Mr. Kury? “Dan, would you consider not releasing any more of your dreadful mock-ups? Some people find them quite hurtful and offensive.” Would you?
> 
> _



In my opinion there is just a difference between certain expressions that's all. It is your free decision to write or state if you like something or not ... but - and I am not the only one mentioning this here - it is a question of the HOW.

... and no, I wouldn't use words about hurtful and offensive. I would say that it is about time to leave GPO behind and create demos with libraries, worth creating demos for!!


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## Ed

billval3 @ Sat Aug 01 said:


> Mr. Kury may very well be an incredible musician, but this mock-up doesn't demonstrate it and calling it monumental is a little beyond laughable, don't you think?



Dont you get it?

It IS monumental he achieved it with something as crappy as GPO


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## Guy Bacos

Ed @ Sun Aug 02 said:


> It IS monumental he achieved it with something as crappy as GPO



Hehe, come on now! I know what you meant but, "crappy as GPO" isn't very flattering either. 

This is a dead end thread....

Time to get drunk! o-[][]-o


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## re-peat

Lunatique @ Sun Aug 02 said:


> (...) to be able to write a version that is thought-provoking without resorting to shoving indignation and shame down the throat of others (...)



Oh sure, I could do that. In fact, I can have it any way you like. Although I usually have it the way I like. Tactlessness is not an emotional thing, you know, it’s always a very rational and lucid decision. Even the degree of tactlessness is carefully measured before being applied. Quite frightening really.
Although, you never know with people, do you? Some find the ‘dead composers returning from the afterlife’-phrase totally unacceptable, while others think it’s quite amusing. Some people agree wholeheartedly with me, while others have expressed a desire ‘to put my lights out’ ... People who insist on apologies from me for using inappropriate language, seem to have no problem calling me a nazi a few minutes later. Remarkable that, isn’t it?

Anyway, as the curtains come down over this rhapsodic episode, allow me to say that I’ve enjoyed most it immensely and that I’m only disappointed by the fact that there was never any real discussion. Apart from the fact that most people here have proven to be very bad, inaccurate readers, no one's really managed to come up with anything that forced me to really reflect on the issues (both the musical ones and the behavioral ones). The best the Good Manners Brigade could manage was to cry for help to Frederik to close this thread, or to say - in a desperate and futile attempt to unsettle me - that there is something wrong with me. During all those five pages, not one glimpse of serious intellectual opposition. Quite sad. Anyway, we’ve established that typing errors can cause substantial confusion and we've exposed Mr. Kury as a two-faced twat, albeit a very kind and generous one. Perhaps not the result some of us were hoping for after five pages of bickering, but it feels entirely satisfying to me nonetheless.

_


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## dcoscina

I hope Frederick closes this thread- nothing good has come of it except in-fighting amongst ourselves....


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## Ian Dorsch

Guy Bacos @ Sun Aug 02 said:


> Time to get drunk! o-[][]-o



QFMFT, man. :lol:


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## choc0thrax

Not only should this thread NOT be closed but be stickied as well.


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## Hardy Heern

I was a great fan of GPO (and its concept) when it was launched and posted prolifically on NS, at the time, producing around 5000+ or was it 2000+ posts, (who cares!) before I was banned. I was actually banned for criticising his violin and cello but I must have been right because they were withdrawn sometime later.

I really did find GPO a very exciting product; at a time when I couldn’t really justify the highly priced Gigasampler or its libraries! There were some terrific orchestral simulations produced by a whole gamut of folk and some were incredibly impressive....at any price...and GPO was _truly _affordable. 

I had already formed the opinion, from my Roland Sound Canvas days, that if you were prepared to put in the tweaking work at MIDI level a low end library could give better results than a high level library which was played like a piano!

At 64yrs of age, I pride myself that I have always tried to be fair and honest in life and that sometimes doesn’t mix with business. My posts reflect my honest opinion presented as reasonably and inoffensively as I, possibly, can.

I have probably listened to more GPO pieces than most, over the years, (although I still haven’t loaded mine up :(, unbelievably, as I was one of the very first to purchase) and I have listened to many of Dan’s pieces and have a lot of regard for his work.

However, I’m sorry to say that this is nothing like Dan’s best work and I’m mildly surprised that he puts his name to it as it doesn’t do his reputation justice, nor the library either, I’m afraid. It smacks of having been done in a rush….and this piece will _just _not be right without a lot of, knowledgeable, MIDI tweaking. I, strongly, suspect that it was produced, semi automatically, from a MIDI file, in Sibelius, Finale or similar.

I did notice somewhere, though, that Dan makes the point that it isn’t an official GPO4 piece.

Sorry, if you're reading this, Dan…but that’s the way it sounds to me.

Cheers

Frank
PS Everyone elses' opinions expressed in this thread are rubbish compared with mine......


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## lux

i've been away of this thread for a while and it helped.

Sometimes i take things too seriously probably. Even if i disagree with the way things have been expressed by him, my sincere apologies go to re-peat, i've been hard on him beyond the necessary i'm afraid. And loosing contact with a musician i have exteem of is not what i want.

What about starting a new thread for commenting this piece and perhaps the entire concept of mockups out of beloved classics?

Luca


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## Guy Bacos

I just wished Glenn Beck didn't have his face here. I use to like him a lot, but he became so full of himself.


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## choc0thrax

Guy Bacos @ Sun Aug 02 said:


> I just wished Glenn Beck didn't have his face here. I use to like him a lot, but he became so full of himself.



I have lost some respect for him. The frequency in which I refer to Glenn as god has diminished greatly these days. I'm hoping some other kind alcoholic mormon racist will get a radio show that I can follow instead.


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## Evan Gamble

choc0thrax @ Sun Aug 02 said:


> Guy Bacos @ Sun Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just wished Glenn Beck didn't have his face here. I use to like him a lot, but he became so full of himself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have lost some respect for him. The frequency in which I refer to Glenn as god has diminished greatly these days. I'm hoping some other kind alcoholic mormon racist will get a radio show that I can follow instead.
Click to expand...


Don't worry I'm sure when Romney looses again in 2012 he will get his own show on Fox News. :wink:


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## Ian Dorsch

It'll air right ofter Palin's Real America Hour.


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## Guy Bacos

It worked, we're off the topic.


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## choc0thrax

Evan Gamble @ Sun Aug 02 said:


> choc0thrax @ Sun Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guy Bacos @ Sun Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just wished Glenn Beck didn't have his face here. I use to like him a lot, but he became so full of himself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have lost some respect for him. The frequency in which I refer to Glenn as god has diminished greatly these days. I'm hoping some other kind alcoholic mormon racist will get a radio show that I can follow instead.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't worry I'm sure when Romney looses again in 2012 he will get his own show on Fox News. :wink:
Click to expand...


2012 is when the world ends though. What I figure is Romney will actually win and then casually reveal that he's the antichrist and then he won't need a show because his thoughts will just beam right into our heads. FOX will become the official news network of hell and Ann Coulter will finally finish her conversion to full on skeleton(will be referred to as skelewhore). Yes it is a slow Sunday.


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## artsoundz

"no one's really managed to come up with anything that forced me to really reflect on the issues (both the musical ones and the behavioral ones"

Remember, to some- it's just not that big of deal. I found this thread late and found it one of the most entertaining,fascinating reads in a long while. But I didnt find it important enough to respond other than a pm. And I dont mean to be rude AT ALL. 

I for one believe the music takes care of itself in the long run. It doesn't need me to discuss it. It has it's own life and ,in this case,. takes are of it's self all on it's own. This particlular piece rose to the challenge all on it's own. I love your deep ,intense dedication ,Piet. but Rhapsody In Blue is and always will be an intensely happy camper all on it's own no matter who messes with it. It's laughing at all opinions. 

amazing the power that music has. fucking magic.


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## jsaras

http://www.audiorecordingandservices.co ... _Earth.mp3

On a lark I decided to use Jay Bacal's MIDI file of John Williams' "Adventures On Earth" that he created for VSL to create a large GPO4 orchestral template. I did not go through any effort to alter his MIDI controller messages, nor did I try to use GPO's legato functions. I just wanted to see if I could create an acceptable orchestral blend using a very simple sample set.

I used four instances of GPO, one for each instrument family (strings, brass, woodwinds, percussion). This allowed me to tweak the reverb settings (just using GPO's built-in reverb and "stage control") to place the instruments in their correct location in the virtual hall. 

For a $150 sample library I think it sounds very respectable. I totally get that better samples really help, but the skill of the person using the tools is equally important.


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## Ned Bouhalassa

It sounds like a 150$ library.


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## Guy Bacos

Not bad for a $150.00 lib.


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