# Thoughts on unpaid internships



## SamGarnerStudios (Feb 8, 2014)

Hey guys, what are your thoughts on doing unpaid internships? I have read endless stories of how this guy interned and did coffee runs with this guy, and now he's doing very well, but I am curious if anyone here had any success stories doing that. The studio I have an interview with this coming week is very hands on and is very exciting, but I would have to relocate to LA for 3 months, so I psychologically need some convincing.

Thanks!


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## Daryl (Feb 8, 2014)

I would ask yourself why they aren't at least paying minimum wage (which would be illegal in the UK), why are they offering an internship, what's in it for them.

Then you should ask yourself what you hope to get out of it.

Now you should have the information as to whether or not it is an opportunity for anything other than to be taken advantage of.

D


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## dinerdog (Feb 8, 2014)

+1

http://www.upworthy.com/half-of-interns ... lly-not-ok


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## Mike Marino (Feb 8, 2014)

You are responsible for your expenses in LA for those 3 months, plus no pay?

Woooooowwwww......


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## germancomponist (Feb 8, 2014)

dinerdog @ Sat Feb 08 said:


> +1
> 
> http://www.upworthy.com/half-of-interns ... lly-not-ok



The same here in Germany as well.


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## MA-Simon (Feb 8, 2014)

I did an internship in a creative Agency in germany, it was unpaid, but I got them to pay for the train tickets which were 150€/month. 

It was a horrible experience. I did not even get a tour/help at the beginning, but was expected to immediately work on huge CI projects on my own.

I stayed there for one month, until I switched to_ smaller _agency with a paid internship!


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## rgames (Feb 8, 2014)

Any studio that can't pony up payment for services rendered to them is one that I would not be interested in working for.

I don't have any experience with internships within the music biz but outside the music biz, interns are always paid, as they should be.

If I'm providing work towards a product or service that generates revenue then I should get a piece of that revenue. That's true for any business - if the studio is legit then the cost of an intern is in the cash flow noise and there's no reason not to pay him.

If the studio can't generate enough revenue to support an intern, then do you really want to work there?

rgames


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## JJP (Feb 8, 2014)

The previous posts raise some good points. If they aren't paying minimum wage and it's not a proper academic internship (preferably with credit through an educational institution), then it's not legal.

Sadly, you hear a lot of stories in the film music world about people who started as an intern and then went on to do great things. Many of these stories are perpetuated by the people seeking interns. However, when you drill down you often find the internship itself had little direct connection to the intern's future success. Plus, you're also not looking at the number of people who have completed internships that never led to any serious career advancement. My experience has shown this to be a significant number.

If you're interested in reading up a little more, ProPublica has been doing an ongoing series about internships in general, their legality, benefits, and costs.

http://www.propublica.org/series/internships

Also, just for the sake of discussion, according to the U.S. Department of Labor an unpaid internship must meet all six of these criteria:

1. The internship, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to training which would be given in an educational environment;
2. The internship experience is for the benefit of the intern;
3. The intern does not displace regular employees, but works under close supervision of existing staff;
4. The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern; and on occasion its operations may actually be impeded;
5. The intern is not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the internship (unpaid "tryouts" aren't allowed);
6. The employer and the intern understand that the intern is not entitled to wages for the time spent in the internship.
The above list is from: http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.pdf


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## gsilbers (Feb 8, 2014)

i think its just a double edge sword and the devil is in the details. 

getting out of college w/o any experience is tough. you think you can take over the world w/oknowing anyone. or you think you know things and you are going to write the next williams pieace or mix the next big record etc etc. 

a specifci timetable is good to have for internships. 3-6 months of unpaid internship is not bad imo. you can learn how poeple work. when i did internship it was night and day on how fast and pro poeple worked. i wouldnt known that any other way. and leanr a lot of things that are not in education and also things they teach in college which is not true or not be soo black and white. 
i wouldnt of learned a lot of things. and no one is going to hire me if i dont know those things. 
of course on the other hand, you have to make sure you are not being taken advantage of. 

there is some schools around that they offer the last class to be an internship program on any studio if they are open for it. i think it is great because that gives the student a chance to transition over and still be part of the curriculum and its a set date with a set goal. the studio i worked at hired a lot of poeple that way. it created trust on the education. 

so its true it sounds like slavery but in this biz its kinda like that. to sort out wannabes, or to have kids to really know what they want to do and if they can do it. 
there is thousands of kids trying to do the same thing, so internship also enables to see if that really what they want to do. it also helps learning other side of the different businesses that might not have the glamour but still pays and its fun.


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## givemenoughrope (Feb 8, 2014)

Here's one of my experiences:

I did an internship my senior year when I still wanted to be a recording engineer. The guy was as big and celebrated as they come but he had been pushed out of New York for mysterious reasons. I didn't care about any of that (at first) since I was hungry and just wanted to learn. I lasted a month with him (got myself fired early and found another internship which offered me a job as assistant which I declined.) I learned a few important things. 1) I learned how to listen. You may think you hear everything at a certain point (harmonies, intonation/timing, whats a take, when a mix is there) and maybe you do more than most. Maybe you're always expanding that. I don't know (I hope so). I just know the very moment when my ears "opened" at a mastering session and I "heard" what he heard and he knew I knew, etc.. From then on I learned how to listen critically (not just for notes) and trust my ears. If the internship is work intensive at some point (not just coffee, food runs) and you acquire some sort of game changing skill on par with that it's priceless. You probably won't see it coming. 2) You are who you run with. The guy had kids but spent Xmas with new clients. He was beyond skilled but bitter, petty, hilarious but a jerk. He told me there was no future in me writing or gigging. Getting clients and getting points were the way forward. (This was in 2000). I knew he was wrong and lame and couldn't take the negativity despite the good stuff. I also realized that music for me was not recording P Diddy or whoever. 3) You never know who you'll meet. Could be a writing partner, producer, future boss, your orchestrating team, your future ex-wife brothers cousin. 

You're thinking about this as whether its a smart move or not. You won't know really until after however you'll know when it's going nowhere. Maybe move on at that point but on good terms if possible. Just know where you want to be and go for that. Trust your instincts (but never talk out of turn…learn to be a fly on the wall…it'll help your "listening" skills).

I almost did an "internship" of sorts 5? years ago. My friend who I played in a band with occasionally has a writing team with a studio complex, interns, gear out the yang. I didn't care for the type of work they did (mostly tv, docs, etc.) but I figured it'd be great to get away from samples for a minute and get my hands on and ears near some vintage Neumanns and Fairchilds again. They do well... always at the PRO award shows. ($) The only way in was to do the coffee thing along with kids 10 years younger…despite my midi sample prowess and their complete lackthereof. they thought it'd be weird to yell at a guy pushing 30 but I didn't mind that (develop a thick skin to the point of numbness…all the great poker players know this). I just wasn't inspired by what they were working on and didn't see it going anywhere interesting despite the fact that they were doing well. I still help them with sample stuff, ve pro, LASS in exchange for borrowing gear here and there. I guess my point is to stay friends with anyone if you can. Make them laugh and be a good guy even if you don't work for them. You might get a frantic call about something and then be the hero on a session. Then you can call them at 11pm and borrow some weird, expensive guitar.

edit- Also, if you are tasked with coffee, learn to MAKE great coffee. It sounds lame but in the age of fancy artisan roasts and foofy lattes if you can really make a great espresso everyone will like you. You can't make one without good bean (I like the Black Cat stuff) and good grinder (finely ground is only way) and just the right amount of water. If their machine sucks or if they don't have one, but an Aeropress for $32. Even a lame machine will have a milk frother that works well enough. Keep that milk chilled in a tin cup, get the excess water out first and then go. Master that and they'll know you have your act together.

edit- I forgot about the original question. I was never paid for my internships. They were college credit. I actually never thought about that bc I was so focused on learning. Don't worry about the money if the opportunity is there. If they hear your stomach grumbling they'll take pity and order lunch. If they sense that "working late and closing up" means sleeping there bc you're couch surfing they'll know. They were hungry once too.


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## pkm (Feb 8, 2014)

I did an unpaid internship on a TV show when I first moved to LA. We did a few outside projects together where I would get paid, and I had the occasional bonus, but for the most part it was unpaid.

It led directly to a job scoring a TV show exec. produced by Steven Spielberg 3 years later.

It's a very long story, and quite the downer at times, but without a doubt the internship was the best choice I have ever made in my life.


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## dinerdog (Feb 8, 2014)

I think "back in the day" an internship probably had a better chance of leading to work because there was more work and you really did learn the ropes in a way that schools couldn't teach you. I don't think those rules apply anymore. Today, WAY less work and more taking advantage of. IMHO.


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