# Mac pro 5,1: One last upgrade push



## gsilbers (Oct 26, 2021)

The mac pro 5,1 (64gb ram ) i have is relative ok but the noise is from the good old days of desktop large fans. And single core performance is the weakest link. And its quiete the clunker. so big!

The new macbooks seem fine but I need to be in Mojave for a little while so i can keep using certain plugins and the virus TI. 

The mac mini would be ideal but id like to have 128gb of ram. Therefore the Trashcan mac (2013 mac pro) seems to fit the bill. 

But I dont know how much better itll be. The used ones in ebay are around $1500 or so. Price is ok but depending on how much more itll add besides less noise. 
Downside of course is Apples push to M1 means intel macs have their days numbered. 

The other options are to get a thunderbolt pice card for the mac pro to use faster SSDs/m2 plus the 128gb ram kit. 

The quesiton i guess would be for those that went from mac pro 5,1 to trashcan and was a big difference and would you still keep it.


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## gsilbers (Oct 29, 2021)

found this if anyone is interested


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## kgdrum (Oct 29, 2021)

Good video! 
Originally my MP was a Quad 2.8 ghz with 8 gig of ram.It was actually a brand new 5,1 It was a discontinued server model that I bought from Microcenter for $1200
I Subsequently I upgraded my 5,1 to a 12 core ,96gig ram and 5 internal SSD’s. I love it! The 5,1 MP really a great machine,It’s definitely the best Mac I’ve ever had. 😃


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## MPortmann (Oct 29, 2021)

gsilbers said:


> found this if anyone is interested
> e



Thanks for posting this. Food for thought. Couple more upgrades I can make from this video. I still love my 5,1. It’s been 100% stable and gotten me through so many projects. I would love to upgrade someday but maybe there’s still some mileage to get out of it


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## MPortmann (Oct 29, 2021)

That graphics card from the video, Radeon VII 16gb HBM2 vram $683, is not available and eBay used is like $2600. Crazy, must be due to crypto currency mining?


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## Alex Fraser (Oct 30, 2021)

gsilbers said:


> found this if anyone is interested



I thought maybe we'd finally found @Dewdman42's YouTube channel. 😉


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## kgdrum (Oct 30, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> I thought maybe we'd finally found @Dewdman42's YouTube channel. 😉



I don’t know if I agree, the YouTube slacker’s OS is Mojave,how pedestrian.


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## gsilbers (Oct 30, 2021)

I forgot about the triple Chanel memory thing. 

So is 96gb ram better and make the Mac Pro faster vs having 128gb?

Or is the ram faster for Kontakt instruments? Or not a big difference?

I remember reading about it a while back. The info now is not sampler orchestra dependent so wonder if anyone remembers


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## kgdrum (Oct 30, 2021)

gsilbers said:


> I forgot about the triple Chanel memory thing.
> 
> So is 96gb ram better and make the Mac Pro faster vs having 128gb?
> 
> ...



I don’t know in the real world whether the difference is speed between 96g and 128g is going to be discernible to a user. I went with 96 vs 128 to save a few $$ and I’ve second guessed the choice I made a few times. Sometimes I wonder if I should have gottenn128g but the truth is I haven’t maxed out the ram.
I bought my 5,1 as a 2.8 Quad with 8g than I 1st upgraded it to a 6 core 3.33ghz and 32g it was better but nothing earth shattering. 
About a year ago I upgraded the tray so now the 5,1 is 3.46ghz 12 core with 96g I also added a Radion RX 580 metal graphics card upgraded to Mojave and I now absolutely love the 5,1!!!
With that being said 96g suits my purposes welI. Yeah I have never hit the ram wall but I’m not a orchestral oriented user I use string and orchestral oriented libraries but more for coloring & I’m not setting up huge templates or creating music with hundreds of tracks.
Under normal circumstances I can work comfortably w/96g without worrying about system resources.


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## gsilbers (Oct 30, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> I don’t know in the real world whether the difference is speed between 96g and 128g is going to be discernible to a user. I went with 96 vs 128 to save a few $$ and I’ve second guessed the choice I made a few times. Sometimes I wonder if I should have gottenn128g but the truth is I haven’t maxed out the ram.
> With that being said 96g suits my purposes welI. Yeah I have never hit the ram wall but I’m not a orchestral oriented user I use string and orchestral oriented libraries but more for coloring & I’m not setting up huge templates or creating music with hundreds of tracks.
> I bought my 5,1 as a 2.8 Quad with 8gthen I initially upgraded it to a 6 core and 32g it was better but nothing earth shattering.
> About a year ago I upgraded the tray so now the 5,1 is 3.46ghz 12 core with 96g I also added a Radion 580 metal graphics card and I now absolutely love the 5,1.
> Under normal circumstances I can work comfortably without worrying about system resources.



Too bad most benchmarks seem to be video related. so its hard to know for us.


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## Patryk Scelina (Oct 30, 2021)

gsilbers said:


> The mac pro 5,1 (64gb ram ) i have is relative ok but the noise is from the good old days of desktop large fans. And single core performance is the weakest link. And its quiete the clunker. so big!
> 
> The new macbooks seem fine but I need to be in Mojave for a little while so i can keep using certain plugins and the virus TI.
> 
> ...


I have 12 core trashcan with 64 gb of RAM and it is the best You can get. When You put 128 GB of ram in it this will slow down the memory and CPU.
While multicore performance is rather nice for the age of the machine, single core is slower than on my old Hackintosh which had i7 4790. It's not so visible on bigger sessions in Cubase, but when I want to convert a video for instance or just process audio files in batch it takes much longer than on a 2015 Macbook Pro with i7. I switched to trashcan because I was tired of Hackintosh but I'm not sure If I'm happy with that machine enough.
I'm waiting now for some new Apple announcements to see what's coming next year and I'm getting either new Mac Pro or some new iMac if there's gonna be 32 inch version.


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## gsilbers (Oct 30, 2021)

Patryk Scelina said:


> I have 12 core trashcan with 64 gb of RAM and it is the best You can get. When You put 128 GB of ram in it this will slow down the memory and CPU.
> While multicore performance is rather nice for the age of the machine, single core is slower than on my old Hackintosh which had i7 4790. It's not so visible on bigger sessions in Cubase, but when I want to convert a video for instance or just process audio files in batch it takes much longer than on a 2015 Macbook Pro with i7. I switched to trashcan because I was tired of Hackintosh but I'm not sure If I'm happy with that machine enough.
> I'm waiting now for some new Apple announcements to see what's coming next year and I'm getting either new Mac Pro or some new iMac if there's gonna be 32 inch version.



Thats something i was curious about. the single core performance since logic is so damn specific about it. the single core doesnt seem its sooo different between trashcan/5,1 to warrant the upgrade. but not sure. 

if be interested in the mac cube if the rumors are true. something a little bigger than the mini to have expansion slots for ssd or m.2 drives.


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## Patryk Scelina (Oct 30, 2021)

gsilbers said:


> Thats something i was curious about. the single core performance since logic is so damn specific about it. the single core doesnt seem its sooo different between trashcan/5,1 to warrant the upgrade. but not sure.
> 
> if be interested in the mac cube if the rumors are true. something a little bigger than the mini to have expansion slots for ssd or m.2 drives.


Don't get me wrong it is still a good computer, especially for audio. It is stable but it's not fast enough for the newest software. I can give you an example, I updated Smart EQ when version 3 came out. But I can't use even one instance of it in Cubase. I'm not sure what's exactly the issue, if it's single core cpu performance or GPU, but as soon as I open it, Cubase freezes for some time. Next when it gets back to life, when I just click on a single button it freezes again. I suspect it's GPU, but I'm not certain.

No issues in smart eq 2


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## gsilbers (Oct 30, 2021)

another drawback of the mac pro 5,1 is the fan noise. 

anyone got a decent low cost solution ? 

im checking out the server world but don't know if the mac pro will fit. maybe if the rack rails are removable but its hard to tell. anyone experienced with thesE? (mostly 6U onces) 




Acousti Products - Orion Acoustic Mini Cabinet Range





Acousti Products - Orion Acoustic Wall Mountable Rack Range





XRackPro and XRackPro2 Soundproofed Quiet Rackmount 19in Cabinets by Gizmac.


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 31, 2021)

The triple channel RAM speed thing is so minor as to be negligible when compared to running low on RAM.

I have always said that having more RAM doesn't speed your computer up, but rather it stops your computer from slowing down when you don't have enough.

I've been using my 2009 for many years now - its the best computer I've ever owned. However, when the new Mac Pro Mini or whatever it is called drops next year, it will be time.....


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## topaz (Oct 31, 2021)

MPortmann said:


> That graphics card from the video, Radeon VII 16gb HBM2 vram $683, is not available and eBay used is like $2600. Crazy, must be due to crypto currency mining?


Global GPU shortage, the curse of the 5,1 Mac Pro upgrader :-(


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## gsilbers (Oct 31, 2021)

Anyone get those pcie card with ssd m2 drives and notice a huge difference?

I run into single core issue on logic way before disk streaming issue


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 1, 2021)

gsilbers said:


> I forgot about the triple Chanel memory thing.
> 
> So is 96gb ram better and make the Mac Pro faster vs having 128gb?



I had 128 in mine. I took it down to 96 and it definitely benchmarked faster and better. And not insignificantly. So far I haven’t missed the memory. I think 96 is a good balance of enough memory and optimal performance and I’m leaving mine at 96.


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## gsilbers (Nov 1, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> I had 128 in mine. I took it down to 96 and it definitely benchmarked faster and better. And not insignificantly. So far I haven’t missed the memory. I think 96 is a good balance of enough memory and optimal performance and I’m leaving mine at 96.



What type of benchmark? Was it overall cpu speed or rendering?

How about single core speed ?


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 1, 2021)

Regarding fan noise I have to say my 5,1 is pretty dead quiet I can’t even tell if it’s on unless I look at the led on the front. It’s possibly the quietest computer I’ve ever owned. So I am wondering why yours is noisy?

Personally I don’t think spending $1500 on a trash can from the 5,1 is a good idea. That is not enough of an upgrade to warrant the expenses involved. But then again my 5,1 has dual 3.46 cpu. Mine is plenty fast for everything I have been doing I have no need to upgrade it at all other then apple is going to force me.

If you are wanting to run Monterey and that is your reason then try the hacks first the 5,1 can run Monterey nicely

But if you’re looking at $1k to upgrade your 5,1 in order to make it faster or new gpu, etc….we’ll then maybe I’d consider trashcan instead of that; but only if you aren’t depending on any pci slots for anything and don’t forget you have to move storage external too.

M1 generation is just around the corner I reccomend holding out rather then go to trashcan which I fully expect to be deprecated by apple next year. 

And also I personally think the cheese graters will continue to live a longer life as hackintoshes compared to the trashcan because of the fact you can put pci cards in it, you can replace the bt/wifi card, etc I think it will live on for quite a few more years for many people but I think once apple deprecates the trashcan it will fade away quickly. IMHO


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 1, 2021)

gsilbers said:


> What type of benchmark? Was it overall cpu speed or rendering?
> 
> How about single core speed ?



Geek bench. Yes both single core and multi core scores were improved. I can’t remember the exact amount of improvement right now, let’s say 10% for now


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 1, 2021)

But going to 96 is not going to gain you significant difference in low latency recording in logicpro. A little bit. If you truly need all 128 gb of ram then by all means use it. But i was never coming close to using that much ram and I want cpu optimized the max it can do


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## kgdrum (Nov 1, 2021)

@gsilbers 
Re: fan noise 
The only time I usually hear the fan is when I reboot or start the computer. Once I log in the fan goes back to unnoticeable.


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## gsilbers (Nov 9, 2021)

So im looking at the sonnet m2 4x4 pcie card to add 4 m2 ssd drives. 




and it mentions using one of the cards as a boot drive. Would it make a huge difference vs normal data ssd drives for logic ? 
At least for single core performance.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 9, 2021)

You need to check to make sure the final firmware on the 5,1 supports booting through the pci card and from the m2 drive.


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## gsilbers (Nov 9, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> You need to check to make sure the final firmware on the 5,1 supports booting through the pci card and from the m2 drive.


ah good to know. 
found this



not sure still if i want to go through all of that if single core perf in logic is not a big jump. 

Id rather use it for sample streaming. get a dual m2 card and raid0 maybe. or keep it simple w one large m2 ssd. its still much faster than the sata ssd.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 9, 2021)

I don't think it will have ANY impact on your single core performance.

I think the final firmware update that is included with Mojave might have you covered as far as that goes..but you should check with the manufacturer to be sure.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 9, 2021)

Even though its much faster in pure SSD benchmarking, I don't think you will see any improvement in anything that matters. I installed a raid PCI card and put a couple SSD's on it. its SATA3 so even without raid its way faster then the built in SATA2. And it benchmarked faster. Raid configuration benchmarked even faster that that. Not as fast as NVME would be, but considerably faster then the built in SATA2. However, beyond the benchmark results, nothing was made faster compared to SSD in the SATA2. Machine took just as long to boot up as before. DAW projects too just as long to load as before. Everything was effectively the same. Bottom line is that there are other bottlenecks constraining overall performance in ways that really matter in practical ways...so its kind of useless to worry about putting in super fast SSD storage in a 5,1 MacPro.

Streaming is really not going to matter, even with just regular old SATA2 SSD's in your machine, they are keeping up with streaming just fine...there is no need for super fast storage and you won't get much or possibly any noticeable improvement...other then expanding the amount of storage you have.

That being said, I took my SSD's off of raid configuration, to keep things more simple, one less thing that can go wrong. I still use the card with a couple of SSD's so that I can have a total of 6 SSD's installed in my cheese grater. Otherwise I would be perfectly fine using the built in SATA2.

FWIW


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 9, 2021)

Also another thing you might want to consider before spending a bunch of money on something like that for the 5,1 is about whether you may ever end up trying to run OpenCore and Catalina+ on it. I have no idea if there would be any issue with it or not..but it just adds more complexity for that scenario. 

So far I have been able to run both Catalina and Monterey on mine...using OpenCore...including my PCI raid card...but I didn't try to boot from it...and its also not NVMe. I have no idea whether that would be an issue or not, but something to be aware of.


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## gsilbers (Nov 9, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> Even though its much faster in pure SSD benchmarking, I don't think you will see any improvement in anything that matters. I installed a raid PCI card and put a couple SSD's on it. its SATA3 so even without raid its way faster then the built in SATA2. And it benchmarked faster. Raid configuration benchmarked even faster that that. Not as fast as NVME would be, but considerably faster then the built in SATA2. However, beyond the benchmark results, nothing was made faster compared to SSD in the SATA2. Machine took just as long to boot up as before. DAW projects too just as long to load as before. Everything was effectively the same. Bottom line is that there are other bottlenecks constraining overall performance in ways that really matter in practical ways...so its kind of useless to worry about putting in super fast SSD storage in a 5,1 MacPro.
> 
> Streaming is really not going to matter, even with just regular old SATA2 SSD's in your machine, they are keeping up with streaming just fine...there is no need for super fast storage and you won't get much or possibly any noticeable improvement...other then expanding the amount of storage you have.
> 
> ...



I do have several large sata ssd and ill have to check first if after installing 128gb ram, i can load and stream a bunch of stuff in a normal hybrid workflow.


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## gsilbers (Nov 9, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> Also another thing you might want to consider before spending a bunch of money on something like that for the 5,1 is about whether you may ever end up trying to run OpenCore and Catalina+ on it. I have no idea if there would be any issue with it or not..but it just adds more complexity for that scenario.
> 
> So far I have been able to run both Catalina and Monterey on mine...using OpenCore...including my PCI raid card...but I didn't try to boot from it...and its also not NVMe. I have no idea whether that would be an issue or not, but something to be aware of.


im trying to stay in mojave as long as possible until we see any good desktop alternatives in the m1 world.


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## gsilbers (Nov 9, 2021)

ah interesting






NVMe vs SATA: Will it make Kontakt faster?


On the subject of the benefit of NVMe over a modest SATA SSD, specifically as it relates to Kontakt, I've commented here and elsewhere that: At least with Kontakt's compressed samples, NVMe is completely wasted. Decent SATA SSDs are too for that matter: I bottleneck my CPU decompressing the...




vi-control.net


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 9, 2021)

gsilbers said:


> found this if anyone is interested



That's just a maxed out 5,1 with a video card that's too expensive. If you want that, I'd find one on eBay or Craigslist already upgraded.

But I agree with everything Dewdman says. I personally would - and probably will, unless I go for one of the new lapops - just wait for the right Apple Silicon Mac to come out.




gsilbers said:


> another drawback of the mac pro 5,1 is the fan noise


You shouldn't be hearing them 99% of the time, at least I don't. My machine is on the other side of a wall, but I don't hear the fans when I open the trap door to get at it. And it's in a garage that gets hot during the summer.

Maybe that's the difference when you have a 12-core - it doesn't work as hard and doesn't get as hot?

In any case, the only time I hear the fans is when I run Gigapixel AI, which really pushes the limits of the processors.


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## gsilbers (Nov 11, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> That's just a maxed out 5,1 with a video card that's too expensive. If you want that, I'd find one on eBay or Craigslist already upgraded.
> 
> But I agree with everything Dewdman says. I personally would - and probably will, unless I go for one of the new lapops - just wait for the right Apple Silicon Mac to come out.
> 
> ...



I already have the 5,1. 2x12core 3.45ghz. i recently upgraded the video card for mojave. This video, and as most computer info/benchmarks nowadays, its based on video editor needs so the m2 ssd is also there and expensive video card. 

I clean the dirt out of my mac and the fannoise is less, but the new video card has a fan as well and fanspeed doesnt control it so it does have some noise. im also thinking more on the side of recording inside the same room so compared to my m1 macbook air its a honky noise mess. i might be recording just w the air since it can handle a lot more anyways cpu wise. but yeah, most likley wait for that new mac cube or desktops to see where everything is going and hopefully most apps will be updating by then.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 11, 2021)

gsilbers said:


> i recently upgraded the video card for mojave.


Ah, got it. It didn't occur to me that my RX 560 also has a fan.

But it's quiet. My machines are in the garage behind a trap door, and I have to lean close to them to hear the fan when I open the door.

(And obviously I don't hear it at all when the door is closed as it normally is.)


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 11, 2021)

my RX580 is also pretty darn quiet, but I don't do advanced video editing maybe it would ramp up if I were. 

But anyway, if some other video card was used..who knows how the fan is used, they are all different.


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## kgdrum (Nov 11, 2021)

The only time I hear the fans on my 5,1 using the same RX580 card is on startup or reboot. As soon as I log in to my account the fans go back to quiet.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 11, 2021)

Thinking about it, it may not even have been that fan I was hearing - I still have a spinning drive in there for mass storage of things I don't use all the time.


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## samtrino (Nov 11, 2021)

I'm thinking of relegating the MP 5.1 to VEPro / Sample Libs duties once I get the new MBP, anyone has good experience with a supported 10GbE card? Thanks!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 11, 2021)

samtrino said:


> I'm thinking of relegating the MP 5.1 to VEPro / Sample Libs duties once I get the new MBP, anyone has good experience with a supported 10GbE card? Thanks!


According to VSL it doesn't pay.


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## gsilbers (Nov 11, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Ah, got it. It didn't occur to me that my RX 560 also has a fan.
> 
> But it's quiet. My machines are in the garage behind a trap door, and I have to lean close to them to hear the fan when I open the door.
> 
> (And obviously I don't hear it at all when the door is closed as it normally is.)


i keep choosing the wrong parts i guess. or at least not the best for what i need. 

i have amd radeon hd7950. the fan looks tiny in coparison and i guess thats one thing making it noisier. not by that much. its ok. i just have it next to me. recording soft instruments would pick it up. 

i also have an ns10 amp w a fan as well. i cant find a 6 rack space isobox thats affordable and gets it to be silent or quiet. most on the server and video side keep saying that word but i dont think they know what that word means. 
i might build something but then again, a mac cube could come out with 128gb of ram at a decent price and those dont have any noise at all. transition period is my point. 

​


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## gsilbers (Nov 11, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> According to VSL it doesn't pay.


what!? i just bought a 10gb card. darn


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 11, 2021)

larger fans are generally quieter, its the small ones that have to spin faster and make more noise.

I got rid of my NS10's exactly for the reason that the amp to drive them was too darn loud. Occasionally I have to put up with the fans in my mesa boogie rack mount guitar amp, which I already replaced with the quietest thing I could find but their still too loud in the studio. Fortunately it only is on to play guitar, not record anything through a mic.

Regarding the future of a Mac "cube"...we don't really know yet what is coming. It might very well be something like a Mac mini, which has fans...or the 2019 tower, has fans.. I do not think its a given that they are going to repeat the trashcan concept without fans and a fancy heat sink design...but hey..never know... but I would not count on that.

I also think it could be some time yet until we are going to see a 128gb ARM model. Admittedly, the 64gb MBP's that just came out, came out sooner then I thought they would...so who knows.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 11, 2021)

Dewdman42 said:


> I got rid of my NS10's exactly for the reason that the amp to drive them was too darn loud


For what it's worth there are lots of amps that don't have fans, including the long-discontinued Hafler I have.

Having said that, there are other legitimate reasons to get rid of NS-10s - not that I dislike them, I'm just saying that they have flaws that people either like or don't.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 11, 2021)

I have nothing against ns10’s, they are like a microscope for mid range, and extremely useful tool but I also had limited room for both the amp and another set of perhaps more flattering sounding speakers, I even used to have a set of ns10’s brand new in a box that I bought for a rainy day when they first discontinued them. I actually sold them later for more then the original new price.

But fan noise was part of the decision too, even though as you say I could have bought a different amp if I was more motivated to keep the ns10’s. If I were a mix engineer for a living I would have kept them for sure


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