# Neighboring Rights Royalties - Rident, NRG etc



## tsk (Mar 14, 2019)

I'm starting to hear a lot about neighboring rights royalties and I read on another forum that it's worth collecting them, including for those of us who make production music.

I've heard of two companies so far which can collect them for composers: Rident and NRG.

Does anyone here have any experience with these companies? How did it go if so? Was it worth it?

It would be great to hear from others.


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## SillyMidOn (Mar 14, 2019)

I use https://www.limebluemusic.com


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## tsk (Mar 14, 2019)

SillyMidOn said:


> I use https://www.limebluemusic.com


How is it going for you with them? Have you been with them long?


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## SillyMidOn (Mar 15, 2019)

tsk said:


> How is it going for you with them? Have you been with them long?



So every country has their own society that collects these types of royalties (US being an exception, as they didn't sign the relevant treaty). In the UK it is the PPL - they can in theory also collect money on your behalf across the world, but I have been told they are not very pro-active when it comes to this. Theoretically you can sign up with each agency in each country separately, but that is a lot of legwork, so companies like NRG etc work as middlemen on your behalf. I can't see how one can be markedly better than the other, as what they do is collect the money that the foreign collection societies already have collected, they are just working as your agent. 

So what would make me chose one over the other? I'm in the UK, as is Lime Blue, therefore I have less of a currency exchange loss to consider. If I had a company based in the US, they would first lose on the exchange rate taking all the money from foreign currencies into $, and then again from $ to £. With a company based in the same country as me, I'm only losing on the currency exchange once, not twice. The other factor is the % they take - talk to several, and you can haggle down the percentage. 

NB No royalties of this type are collected for advert o trailer music, sadly.

Hope that helps.


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## tsk (Mar 15, 2019)

Thank you, that is very helpful and also interesting.

I didn't realize about how some usages won't produce this type of royalties - even advertising on television won't?

I guess that the advantanges between one agency or another for me would be:

1. How honest they are
2. How proactive they are in chasing royalties around the world
3. How diligent they are with registrations and so on
4. The % cut that they take


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## tsk (Mar 15, 2019)

SillyMidOn said:


> So every country has their own society that collects these types of royalties (US being an exception, as they didn't sign the relevant treaty). In the UK it is the PPL - they can in theory also collect money on your behalf across the world, but I have been told they are not very pro-active when it comes to this. Theoretically you can sign up with each agency in each country separately, but that is a lot of legwork, so companies like NRG etc work as middlemen on your behalf. I can't see how one can be markedly better than the other, as what they do is collect the money that the foreign collection societies already have collected, they are just working as your agent.
> 
> So what would make me chose one over the other? I'm in the UK, as is Lime Blue, therefore I have less of a currency exchange loss to consider. If I had a company based in the US, they would first lose on the exchange rate taking all the money from foreign currencies into $, and then again from $ to £. With a company based in the same country as me, I'm only losing on the currency exchange once, not twice. The other factor is the % they take - talk to several, and you can haggle down the percentage.
> 
> ...



Do you mind saying how long you've been with them? It's hard finding one to trust. Have they paid out to you?


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## Daryl (Mar 16, 2019)

tsk said:


> Do you mind saying how long you've been with them? It's hard finding one to trust. Have they paid out to you?


This is all really early days, so there are very few facts and figures to juggle with. However the next few years will tell.


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## SillyMidOn (Mar 16, 2019)

tsk said:


> Thank you, that is very helpful and also interesting.
> 
> I didn't realize about how some usages won't produce this type of royalties - even advertising on television won't?
> 
> ...



It's hard to accurately say how honest anyone is when it comes to royalties, to be frank. The stories I have heard/experienced just regarding performance royalties (so PRS, ASCAP etc money) and mechanical royalties are pretty frightening. I do not wish to recount them here, but am happy to share some in a dm message.

I've only been with these people for a year, but have had quarterly payments. It's a drop in the ocean compared to my other royalties, but all monies are happily accepted . AFAIK TV advertising does not attract NR royalties, that is what I have been told. Lime Blue were very forthcoming in answering any of my questions over the phone - you can do that with any of those agencies, that might give you more of a feel for each company. PPL is apparently not very proactive at pursuing NR royalties. Lime Blue told me what they specifically do to actively pursue royalties. 

Hope that helps.


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## Daryl (Mar 17, 2019)

SillyMidOn said:


> PPL is apparently not very proactive at pursuing NR royalties.



PPL cannot be proactive in getting NR for library music, and will not in the future. If you want me to go through the boring details, I will, but take it from me, you are onto a hiding for nothing if you rely on PPL.

The difficulty is that if you play on a lot of commercial releases, PPL is a good starting point, as they have deals with all the other NR collection agencies. If you sign with one of the collection agencies, you have to balance the bigger cut they take, against the possible bigger pie...!


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## tsk (Mar 17, 2019)

SillyMidOn said:


> It's hard to accurately say how honest anyone is when it comes to royalties, to be frank. The stories I have heard/experienced just regarding performance royalties (so PRS, ASCAP etc money) and mechanical royalties are pretty frightening. I do not wish to recount them here, but am happy to share some in a dm message.
> 
> I've only been with these people for a year, but have had quarterly payments. It's a drop in the ocean compared to my other royalties, but all monies are happily accepted . AFAIK TV advertising does not attract NR royalties, that is what I have been told. Lime Blue were very forthcoming in answering any of my questions over the phone - you can do that with any of those agencies, that might give you more of a feel for each company. PPL is apparently not very proactive at pursuing NR royalties. Lime Blue told me what they specifically do to actively pursue royalties.
> 
> Hope that helps.



Sounds promising if you've received payments quarterly having only been with them a year. Sure, I'd be interested to ehar about some of the PRO stories by DM... I have a few of my own too.


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## tsk (Mar 17, 2019)

Daryl said:


> PPL cannot be proactive in getting NR for library music, and will not in the future. If you want me to go through the boring details, I will, but take it from me, you are onto a hiding for nothing if you rely on PPL.
> 
> The difficulty is that if you play on a lot of commercial releases, PPL is a good starting point, as they have deals with all the other NR collection agencies. If you sign with one of the collection agencies, you have to balance the bigger cut they take, against the possible bigger pie...!



I wasn't able to follow this very well. I had heard the same about PPL but don't understand why.

On the part about signing with the collection agency, why is their a bigger pie? Do you mean signing with a collection agency like Lime Blue means they take a bigger percentage than signing with PPL? I'm a bit lost on this part.


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## Daryl (Mar 17, 2019)

In the UK NR is paid as part of MCPS payments. Therefore not only will PPL not track it, it is impossible to register your recordings with them in the first place.


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## SillyMidOn (Mar 18, 2019)

Daryl said:


> In the UK NR is paid as part of MCPS payments. Therefore not only will PPL not track it, it is impossible to register your recordings with them in the first place.


Hm, are you sure (not trying to be difficult here, Daryl, I always enjoy your comments on forums. and I realise this is a not overly well researched topic online)? I spoke to the PPL about this and they said they do collect NR royalties. I quote:

"PPL are the collection management organisation in the UK for neighboring [sic] rights collection." I know that Lime Blue collect my UK NR through PPL. That sentence had too many acronyms .


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## Daryl (Mar 18, 2019)

PPL collects NR for commercial recordings. It does not collect them for library recordings. They can't because no library recordings are registered with PPL. All library payments are made via MCPS.
Unfortunately, there is a tacet agreement with the MU from years ago which means that, in practical terms, there is no way of musicians who play on library recordings in the UK getting their hands on their entitlement to NR.


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## tsk (Mar 18, 2019)

Daryl said:


> PPL collects NR for commercial recordings. It does not collect them for library recordings. They can't because no library recordings are registered with PPL. All library payments are made via MCPS.
> Unfortunately, there is a tacet agreement with the MU from years ago which means that, in practical terms, there is no way of musicians who play on library recordings in the UK getting their hands on their entitlement to NR.



Interesting. So this applies only to PPL, not say Lime Blue or NRG? E.g. A UK composer could collect NR from library music if with Lime Blue or NRG?


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## Daryl (Mar 18, 2019)

tsk said:


> Interesting. So this applies only to PPL, not say Lime Blue or NRG? E.g. A UK composer could collect NR from library music if with Lime Blue or NRG?


It's not quite that simple.

1. Firstly, understand that it's all a bit of a dodge, Composers are not strictly speaking entitled to any of this money. It's for performers...!

2. The way to claim the money is to register it with every collection society in the world. If PPL allowed you to register it with them, this step would be unnecessary, as they have reciprocal agreements with the other PROs. All Lime Blue and NRG and others are doing is registering your tracks for you, with multiple agencies, and collecting on your behalf.

3. The snag with going the above route is that because of the agencies' cut, if you have NR due on commercial recordings, then obviously you will lose some money. The question is; which is more valuable? The NR on your library recordings compared with the cut you lose on your commercial recordings.

4. Until things change with MCPS, you will never be able to claim on NR generated by library music produced in the UK.


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## tsk (Mar 18, 2019)

Daryl said:


> It's not quite that simple.
> 
> 1. Firstly, understand that it's all a bit of a dodge, Composers are not strictly speaking entitled to any of this money. It's for performers...!
> 
> ...



Thank you. I see now. In the case of only writing production music, I guess losing out on the commercial cut is not a factor.

On your point 4: does that mean no NR will be generated by library music which is broadcast in the UK, or that no NR will be generated by library music written by a UK composer?


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## Daryl (Mar 19, 2019)

tsk said:


> "On your point 4: does that mean no NR will be generated by library music which is broadcast in the UK, or that no NR will be generated by library music written by a UK composer?


"

It has to do with registration. If you can't register it, you can't claim any extra money. As I said, my understanding is that MCPS already collects NR, but just hands it out to the Publisher. What I don't know is what happens with foreign registered music. As my music recording is based in the UK, I am governed by the agreements here.


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