# This you have to read - gut strings on instruments



## Hannes_F (Jan 18, 2011)

I see where you are coming from and I remember that when I started out playing the violin it troubled me for a time. However it may pacify you that by far the most strings today consist of synthetical material (nylon). Over the last 40 years or so the manufacturers have done a lot of research to find new mixtures and today nylon core strings wrapped with metal are the standard. The steel strings that you mentioned are more used for the E string and for some cello strings, besides of that they are more of a niche.

Usually several threads of the nylon material are compounded to the core of the actual string, and then this is spirally wrapped with metal to add mass. Usual metals are aluminium for the lighter strings, silver for the lower strings and even tungsten and titanium are used. This metal wrapping is then grinded and all together strings are quite expensive, we look at 50 - 100 EUR for a violin set and 200 - 350 EUR for a cello set.

I quickly checked my two favourite string manufacturers and out of 26 different kinds of strings five are made from gut in conjunction with metal. Gut strings can have wonderful features but the problem is that besides of cracking quite easily they detune immediately with changing air humidity, and that was a main reason why nylon strings have been developed. Before it regularly happened that the orchestra was perfectly in tune and as soon as the choir sang their first note everything was ouch  Not that the experienced player could not finger his way around this but it is uncomforteable.

That being said I think while I did not use gut strings since 30 years or so they still have their merits especially for period instruments. Using gut for strings imo has about the same ethical weight like using leather for shoes. Even less critical since gut is a by-product. If you really think about it it is scary but on the other hand it is a nature product that can have unique features.

For me it is not practical to use gut core strings for professional playing. Imagine you arrive at a gig and a string has cracked, especially since new gut strings need several days to stay in tune (the first hours are the worst). Performing on location, performing outside, playing in other countries with different climate and plane transportation ... big risk to do with gut strings (YMMV). If you are a loving amateur that enjoys spending his chief physician's earning in old italian violins this is a different case.

Best
Hannes


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## southnorth (Jan 18, 2011)

It's nice to hear that more strings are made synthetically. However, that doesn't change the fact that probably most music including strings has some kind of gut string in there. And, since strings are used in everything from film music, classical, pop music, etc. it's everywhere! I can't seem to come to peace with that. Everytime I listen to music now, I think about this. A disturbed mind for sure.

Are there any string libraries or string instruments that are made purely with steel / synthetic strings?


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## robh (Jan 18, 2011)

May I ask why it bothers you?

Rob


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## southnorth (Jan 18, 2011)

Well it's a good question, because I've used some time trying to ignore it and "forget it", without luck. It proably has to do with the fact that intestines are used to create the sound. I don't know if I'm able to give you any solid arguments, but it's a "dead animal creating sound"-kinda thing. Let's say you're listening to a great string passage with a gorgeous tone. Then, it's still the creepy cells of a dead animal partially creating that sound.


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## southnorth (Jan 18, 2011)

Yeah, true, true. There are many instruments made of animal parts. I think it's all bad! We live in 2011, we can synthesise everything for crying out load! And what about erhu - snake skin. I stop using that instrument for sure.

I know this can all sound a little silly, but if you "see" my point, I think it is a valid thing to discuss.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 18, 2011)

southnorth @ Tue Jan 18 said:


> Are there any string libraries or string instruments that are made purely with steel / synthetic strings?



Since you've asked, all my recordings obviously are done without gut strings. However I don't record for sample libraries, made-to-measure work here only


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## Hannes_F (Jan 18, 2011)

josejherring @ Tue Jan 18 said:


> Ah yes, but nothing sounds quite as good as a nice Guarnieri violin with gut strings.



20 years ago I would have approved. Today I am not sure any more, compound strings and modern violin makers both have come a long way (if you do blind tests at least).


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## midphase (Jan 18, 2011)

Personally I think this is very silly. It's not like the animals are getting slaughtered simply to manufacture gut strings. These are animal byproducts which would normally be thrown into the garbage (or sent to a sausage factory) and which are being efficiently used to make something useful. If nothing else we should applaud the instrument makers who have been so resourceful.


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## handz (Jan 18, 2011)

bryla @ Tue Jan 18 said:


> southnorth @ Tue Jan 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Are there any string libraries or string instruments that are made purely with steel / synthetic strings?
> ...




I dont see anything positive about replacing something natural with synthetic - unless there is some reason. If only reason would be some "animal rights" problem that would be silly.


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## southnorth (Jan 19, 2011)

robh @ Tue Jan 18 said:


> So do you find it morally objectionable, it just plain grosses you out, or a mixture?



Well, my main concern is that the sound is generated from a dead creature. I consider music as something magic, kind of holy thing. I can't relax listening to it anymore. I'm just thinking about the source of the sound.



Hannes_F @ Tue Jan 18 said:


> Since you've asked, all my recordings obviously are done without gut strings. However I don't record for sample libraries, made-to-measure work here only



Nice to have at least one who understands me. Thanks! Are you playing violin or cello? How much do you charge for some simple melody lines? 



midphase @ Tue Jan 18 said:


> Personally I think this is very silly. It's not like the animals are getting slaughtered simply to manufacture gut strings. These are animal byproducts which would normally be thrown into the garbage (or sent to a sausage factory) and which are being efficiently used to make something useful. If nothing else we should applaud the instrument makers who have been so resourceful.



You are entitled to think that, and I understand that you do so. However, for me, I can't just ignore it like most of you people can. Don't get me wrong, I'm still going to use strings when scoring etc. That said, I can't just relax and listen to the music afterwards. It's a little sad though.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 19, 2011)

southnorth @ Wed Jan 19 said:


> Nice to have at least one who understands me. Thanks! Are you playing violin or cello?



Originally I came here as an arranger and composer but due to interest originally coming from this very forum (and its stepbrother), two years later I am providing the whole strings family (violin, viola, cello, string bass) for solo lines and sections. However I am still flying under the radar since I currently am in the second round of reworking my studio acoustics with some fancy devices and that is why the saloon is not yet open officially - despite constantly recording a good number of projects for composers all over the world. Actually I enjoy this very much since while I appreciate and love the classic strings literature I was always even more interested in what musically happens today. So it turned out that the name "on demand" is literally true atm., any infos and demos are only sent out after request. Look at my signature for finding me. :wink: 



> How much do you charge for some simple melody lines?



Even simple melodies get care here, sometimes more than the complicated things. And it is really affordeable (imo).

I feel a little inconvenient beating my own drum in this thread because I don't want to misuse this fine forum for spamming. I hang around here since I have learned a ton for the engineering part of what I do, and for non-strings instruments I am using samples as anybody else here. So ... back to topic now, cheers o-[][]-o


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## robh (Jan 19, 2011)

southnorth @ Wed Jan 19 said:


> robh @ Tue Jan 18 said:
> 
> 
> > So do you find it morally objectionable, it just plain grosses you out, or a mixture?
> ...


 Yes, but is that concern because of a moral stance, or is it because it simply creeps you out thinking about it (like fingernails scratching a chalkboard)?

Rob


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## southnorth (Jan 19, 2011)

Hannes_F: Cool, I may consider this eventually for a piece. 



robh @ Wed Jan 19 said:


> Yes, but is that concern because of a moral stance, or is it because it simply creeps you out thinking about it (like fingernails scratching a chalkboard)?
> 
> Rob



Well, both, but mainly because I know the source of the sound. It's creepy that the sound is generated from dead animal cells. Obviously, strings sound lovely, we can probably all agree on that. It's the meta information which makes it disturbing.

Do I not understand your question correctly?


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## bryla (Jan 19, 2011)

Now I have to tell you that many jazz drummers use goat skin for their drum heads and the skin on congas/djembe are also from an animal.


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## southnorth (Jan 19, 2011)

bryla @ Wed Jan 19 said:


> Now I have to tell you that many jazz drummers use goat skin for their drum heads and the skin on congas/djembe are also from an animal.



Yes, I'm aware of that, but I rarely listen to music that contains these instruments.


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## midphase (Jan 19, 2011)

southnorth @ Wed Jan 19 said:


> Well, my main concern is that the sound is generated from a dead creature. I consider music as something magic, kind of holy thing. I can't relax listening to it anymore. I'm just thinking about the source of the sound.



Hmmm....ok. I suppose you should also avoid listening to most percussion, and most ethnic music should be off your plate, especially African and Asian music but also including plenty of Eastern, Northern European, Greek, Scottish of course...actually now that I think about it, if you're bothered by music played with dead animal parts, you might as well give up listening to most music altogether.


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## bryla (Jan 19, 2011)

Well then go listen to Vangelis... or not... because his instruments are glued with glue made of horse bones - as is used in oboes too...

I think you're waaaaay too sensitive with what you listen to. Go check out the declaration on the things you EAT!!


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## Ed (Jan 19, 2011)

It must be hard to live in your world.


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## midphase (Jan 19, 2011)

I'm beginning to think that this entire thread is a joke and we've all been had.


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## Pzy-Clone (Jan 19, 2011)

Funny stuff....i guess ur no friend of the Harp ....


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## southnorth (Jan 20, 2011)

Pzy-Clone @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> Funny stuff....i guess ur no friend of the Harp ....



What's with the harp?


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## Hal (Jan 20, 2011)

gut strings too .


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## southnorth (Jan 20, 2011)

Hal @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> gut strings too .



S**t, another instrument I have to remove from my list...


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## NYC Composer (Jan 20, 2011)

:::throws SouthNorth a moral compass:::


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## bryla (Jan 20, 2011)

midphase @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> I'm beginning to think that this entire thread is a joke and we've all been had.


I think you're right


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## Hannes_F (Jan 20, 2011)

> gut strings for harp



But on the other hand there are nylon strings for harps too. Same for guitars, ouds, mandolins etc. It all started with gut in the ancient times and this was more and more replaced by nylon ... a little faster for some instruments, more detained for others.

Since we are talking about materials, high class bows are traditionally made from african brazilwood. These are very old trees growing on the coast and due to the winds they grow very slowly, firm and elastic. But of course it is problematic to cut more of them than are growing, and that is why there are alternatives today. I am playing with modern carbon fibre bows and think they are fantastic nowadays.

Material science for instruments is a fascinating topic. If you are employed in an orchestra there is more peer pressure towards traditional materials but as a freelancer it is only the result that counts


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## bryla (Jan 20, 2011)

Hey Hannes, what is the 'hair' on the bow made of?


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## southnorth (Jan 20, 2011)

Hannes_F @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> > gut strings for harp
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Interesting read. Well, what about nano material instruments. I think that would be interesting to explore. For instance, different properties can be changed on nano level that will alter the sound produced etc.

Oh, found out that violin glue is made from rabbit. What's wrong with this world. I'm from another planet.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 20, 2011)

bryla @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> Hey Hannes, what is the 'hair' on the bow made of?



This is horse's hair. There have been attempts to replace that by synthetic material but nylon stays to be sub-par in that regard.



> Oh, found out that violin glue is made from rabbit. What's wrong with this world. I'm from another planet.



Violin glue is a very difficult thing. You ruin a violin forever if you use standard glue on it. The glue needed is very hard in order to propagate the waves plus it must be dissolveable with steam for doing repair and corrections. And it must be slightly less durable than the wood because it is much better to re-glue an open glue gap than when the wood itself cracks. That is why they still use bone glue in a fairly complicated procedure, see here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_glue

It is a very traditional, crafty technique that is only used for speciality applications any more. Instrument making is one of them. And yes, you probably need to remove piano, cembalo, organ etc from your list then.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 20, 2011)

southnorth @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> Well, what about nano material instruments. I think that would be interesting to explore. For instance, different properties can be changed on nano level that will alter the sound produced etc.



There have been several attempts to use carbon fibre materials with nano features for instrument building but the carbon bows are the first that are successful as far as I know.

Of course when it comes to nano features of materials we must acknowledge that mother nature is still way smarter than us. Especially when it comes to any combination of durable, low weight, elastic and reverseable. We can not at all construct a material that has the features of a blade of gras, or of bone, cartilage, hair or skin. That is why glue made from animal bone, cartilage or skin has unique features still today.


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## southnorth (Jan 20, 2011)

Hannes_F @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> And yes, you probably need to remove piano, cembalo, organ etc from your list then.



This is starting to be a bit ridiculous - piano too...?

OK, physical synthesisers...are they purely from non-pre-living-creature materials? I'm starting to sweat a bit here.

Btw, are there a lot of horses somewhere going around without their tail?


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## bryla (Jan 20, 2011)

no the horses are dead. Synthesizers as I said are glued primarily with glue made of horse bones....


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## Hannes_F (Jan 20, 2011)

southnorth @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> Btw, are there a lot of horses somewhere going around without their tail?



The horse hair comes from sibiria, probably they grow stronger in the cold climate. BTW the wood used for the upper part of the violin is taken from trees that grow not lower than 1200m. Cold climate -> strong hair, hard winds -> strong wood for bows and violins ... you get the picture. Nature adapts and instrument makers use that (since centuries).


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## TheUnfinished (Jan 20, 2011)

Oh dear NorthSouth... I fear we may have sent you on the road to madness.

Every second of every day you're probably inches from something made from dead* animals... that's when you're not wearing them, eating them or sitting on them.

*For most products containing animal, it's best that they're dead when they're integrated! :/


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## southnorth (Jan 20, 2011)

bryla @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> Synthesizers as I said are glued primarily with glue made of horse bones....



Nice try, but I don't think they're using horse glue in synthesisers.

No, no, no...I can take anymore! I like animals, they should walk around happy in the forests. 

Well, luckily enough...we have VSTis! Code, code, code...halleluja!


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## bryla (Jan 20, 2011)

Hey southnorth.... I don't even try. It's like standard knowledge. If we are that far in: much of the wooden furniture and plastic electronic devices you have at home are glued with horse bone glue...

I think you should just think about the pretty colors instead.


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## midphase (Jan 20, 2011)

While I am convinced that this entire thread is a big joke on us...I do have to say that there have been some "synthetic" advancements. Generally speaking (and to quote Mike V.), the results sound like ass. For instance, Carbon Fiber cellos and guitars simply don't quite sound right...hard to describe but they tend to lack the dimension that their "natural" counterparts have.

The engineered solutions also tend to be considerably more expensive than their traditional counterparts, while this will inevitably normalize to what the market will bear, it's still an issue.

It is indeed difficult to get away from using animal products in everyday life. I think the best that can be done is to demand that animals are treated humanely while alive, and that no endangered species are affected. 

Other than that, I don't see anything wrong, quite the opposite actually...if you look at it a certain way, it is a beautiful thing that a part of a living thing can be used to make great music. If I died, andò B   ©
… B   ©! B   ©!E B   ©?“ B   ©@ B   ©@À B   ©@å B   ©Pä B   ©Pþ B   ©WK B   ©Wß B   ©p… B   ©q¨ B   ©}X B   ©}í B


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## shadoe42 (Jan 20, 2011)

the guitarist in my band uses a Rainsong carbon fiber guitar. One thing I can say for it.. its LOUD.. like really loud. but overall to my ears the tonal quality does lack a little depth. its a bit on the bright side for my personal tastes in acoustic guitar sound. But then again i have heard that same brightness from wooden guitars as well.


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## gravehill (Jan 20, 2011)

southnorth @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> Well, luckily enough...we have VSTis! Code, code, code...halleluja!



But have you thought about how many animals had to die in order to provide nourishment for the programmers of those VSTi's? Those guys tend to eat a lot! 

Oh and how about sampled pianos? Those pianos are usually expensive and old instruments, meaning that the keys are probably made of ivory... 

o/~


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## NYC Composer (Jan 20, 2011)

I have heard trees scream as they're chopped down. The horror. The horror.


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## synthetic (Jan 20, 2011)

Glue, Altoids, beer, pills, film, all kinds of wonderful things are made using horse and cow bones (gelatin). Probably including whatever you're sitting on right now and whatever is on your feet. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelatin


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## Pzy-Clone (Jan 20, 2011)

"Glue, Altoids, beer, pills, film, all kinds of wonderful things are made using horse and cow bones (gelatin). Probably including whatever you're sitting on right now and whatever is on your feet."

Ok...so where do they get all these horses?
I mean, are there hidden horse processing plants that just has them hanging about in tiny cubicles just waiting to be mashed up to glue, or what?
A bit like with cows,pigs and chicken?

Obviously there are some horses here and there that (according to local tradition) gets minced up and served as some kind of tasty sausage ( no not that one) ...but really, how much glue can they get out of one horse , i wonder?


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## chimuelo (Jan 20, 2011)

My feet were made from sperm, but I think I can appreciate the way they work on my various foot controllers and pedals.


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## synthetic (Jan 20, 2011)

Pzy-Clone @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> Ok...so where do they get all these horses?



Dunno, Christopher Reeve's house? 

/\~O 

Wiki says they use "bovine" hides, so probably the leftover cow parts that don't become McNuggets.


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## gsilbers (Jan 20, 2011)

http://streakr.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/No-Such-Thing-As-A-Vegan.jpg (http://streakr.com/wp-content/uploads/2 ... -Vegan.jpg)

i thought it was a joke but i looked it up.. its true. almost everything is made out of a cow.


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## southnorth (Jan 21, 2011)

bryla @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> If we are that far in: much of the wooden furniture and plastic electronic devices you have at home are glued with horse bone glue...
> 
> I think you should just think about the pretty colors instead.



Oh well, there goes the sofa out the window...well, the floor is just as good. Just need a pillow or something.

I feel a strong dead-animals-claustrophobia here guys...what are you doing to me?


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## robh (Jan 21, 2011)

southnorth @ Wed Jan 19 said:


> Hannes_F: Cool, I may consider this eventually for a piece.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess I see it as it is possible to not care that the animal is dead, but it can gross you out that you are eye level and inches away from its remains. o/~ 

If you've taken a firm moral stance against the killing of animals in general, then I'm not going to intrude on your personal convictions, but if it just creeps you out, then you should probably figure out a way to deal with it. Either way, I think it's crippling you.

Rob


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## robh (Jan 21, 2011)

Ed @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> JJP @ Thu Jan 20 said:
> 
> 
> > This is why I refuse to use anything made from animal products. It's all plastic for me! I'd much prefer to support the dying petroleum industry than use some renewable garbage that could potentially cause death to furry creatures!
> ...


 Except my wife. But you aren't allowed. So back off!  

Rob


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## robh (Jan 21, 2011)

midphase @ Thu Jan 20 said:


> If I died, and I was allowed to donate my body to instrument manufacturers, I can't imagine a better use of my left over pieces parts that I no longer need.


 Ok. Now THAT would creep me out!

Rob


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## southnorth (Jan 21, 2011)

robh @ Fri Jan 21 said:


> southnorth @ Wed Jan 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Hannes_F: Cool, I may consider this eventually for a piece.
> ...



To be completely serious about the matter. I'm strongly against how animals are treated on this planet. I actually know a lot about this, and I'm utterly disgusted. For instance, refer the food business or fur industry. It's so bad that I don't have words for it. I don't want to go off topic here, but as an example, people treat their dog as if it was of the same value as a human, but at the same time allow the worst to happen to a cow, chicken, pig, mink or whatever, which is probably as intelligent and with a lot of feelings. To state something else is just being condescending.

I don't eat animals, nor use clothes or shoes from animals. No way! However, I have now understood (thanks guys!) that there are many products made with residues from animals. Obviously, I can't go around thinking about that in daily life. It would make be go mad. But for the record, I wouldn't be able to play a violin with gut strings, regardless of it being a musical instrument - that would be too creepy.

That said, music is very important to me in some kind of puristic way. Thus, I should definitely try to find a way to cope with it. Yes, it is crippling me. I've tried to think about dead animals in terms of molecules, atoms, and similar, if you see what I mean? But it just doesn't work. So, I really need some insight in that regard.

Anyway, thanks for keeping this a serious thread. Appreciated.


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