# How much do royalties add up on a network tv show?



## merlinhimself (Mar 18, 2018)

Just wondering what it could amount to for a 23 episode, fairly big network show.

Also if it gets syndicated what would that do?


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## chillbot (Mar 18, 2018)

What country?

Which timeslot?

How much music per episode?

Will it get rerun, as in a sitcom or certain dramas, or will it be one-and-done like a reality show?

Where will it be syndicated?

Will it go to foreign markets?

It's a pretty easy formula to calcuate based on today's rates. Just need a bit more info.

In the US on ABC/CBS/NBC/FOX in primetime you can pretty much count on roughly $200/minute depending on the PRO for the writer's share.


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## BenG (Mar 18, 2018)

@chillbot is correct and these details make a HUGE difference. Also, check the music usage and whether it's background, theme, etc. 

Most PROs should have a 'rough' royalty calculator to give you a better idea. Used it recently and found it to be somewhat accurate for a television documentary I had the opputinty to work on.


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## chillbot (Mar 18, 2018)

BenG said:


> Also, check the music usage and whether it's background, theme, etc.


Oh right. Also: theme, background music, background vocal, visual instrumental/vocal, end credits. All variables. And will you do the cue sheets and make sure it's all accurate or check them?


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## BenG (Mar 18, 2018)

chillbot said:


> Oh right. Also: theme, background music, background vocal, visual instrumental/vocal, end credits. All variables. And will you do the cue sheets and make sure it's all accurate or check them?



Ah yes, get a copy of the cue sheet from the producer. Will save you a lot of time, money and stress.


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## rJames (Mar 27, 2018)

merlinhimself said:


> Just wondering what it could amount to for a 23 episode, fairly big network show.
> 
> Also if it gets syndicated what would that do?


That would all be good. Very good.


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## JaikumarS (Apr 11, 2018)

A question regarding Cue Sheets - whom do I send the cue sheet to? does it go to a specific team in the production and PRO? How does it get verified and validated?

it would be very helpful if you could share your knowledge on how its currently being done.

Thank you…


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## jcrosby (Apr 12, 2018)

merlinhimself said:


> Just wondering what it could amount to for a 23 episode, fairly big network show.
> 
> Also if it gets syndicated what would that do?


It also depends on the show. Prime time sports pays a much different rate than prime time blanket cable TV... The reality is that there is no simple answer to this question and even though this is how I earn the bulk of my income, the only thing I've learned over the years is every quarter and every year's different...


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## dannymc (Apr 12, 2018)

JaikumarS said:


> A question regarding Cue Sheets - whom do I send the cue sheet to? does it go to a specific team in the production and PRO? How does it get verified and validated?
> 
> it would be very helpful if you could share your knowledge on how its currently being done.
> 
> Thank you…



certain PRO's will provide cue sheets to the composers. i'm with ASCAP and they supply you the cue sheets which is useful. on the other hand having cue sheets doesnt always mean you will get paid for that placement as i recently discovered to my horror. 

Danny


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## RiffWraith (Apr 17, 2018)

chillbot said:


> In the US on ABC/CBS/NBC/FOX in primetime you can pretty much count on roughly $200/minute depending on the PRO for the writer's share.



For ASCAP it's right around $130/min. for BG; BMI is almost def almost the same.

Cheers.


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## chillbot (Apr 17, 2018)

This is what I had from BMI per minute of BG music for primetime shows last quarter:

abc 132.90
cbs 210.52
nbc 216.55
fox 258.59

I checked the two quarters before and they were pretty similar. Maybe it's time to switch.



RiffWraith said:


> BMI is almost def almost the same.


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## NoamL (Apr 17, 2018)

Is that yearly, Jeff?


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## RiffWraith (Apr 17, 2018)

chillbot said:


> This is what I had from BMI per minute of BG music for primetime shows last quarter:
> 
> abc 132.90
> cbs 210.52
> ...



Wow. I believe you , but that almost doesn't sound right.

Would you mind very much if I asked you to up a shot?


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## RiffWraith (Apr 17, 2018)

NoamL said:


> Is that yearly, Jeff?



Not sure what you mean?


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## chillbot (Apr 17, 2018)

RiffWraith said:


> Wow. I believe you , but that almost doesn't sound right.
> 
> Would you mind very much if I asked you to up a shot?



What is CA% and Share%? I'm not sure how to read that, BMI doesn't use those terms. Because if for some reason you're only getting 50% of the writer's share then that works out to closer to $250/minute overall.


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## RiffWraith (Apr 17, 2018)

CA has to do with public domain material; if there is none, it's credited as 100%

Share is how much royalties you own, out of the TOTAL royalties. So, if you have a publisher, and they get 100% publishing, and you get 100% writers, that is to say you get 50% of the perf royalties. That is what the 50% is. Share 50% = 100% writers.

The figures you gave above were for only writers, or did they include the publishing share as well? (If you self-publish)


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## NoamL (Apr 17, 2018)

RiffWraith said:


> Not sure what you mean?



i.e. as opposed to quarterly.


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## RiffWraith (Apr 17, 2018)

Still not sure what you mean... 

Pymts are made every quarter to composers, but each usage is not quarter-dependent.

That help?


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## chillbot (Apr 17, 2018)

RiffWraith said:


> The figures you gave above were for only writers, or did they include the publishing share as well?



Writer's only.

I'd rather not post my actual statements here but if you PM me I could remember to screenshot something for you in the morning.


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## Mike Greene (Apr 17, 2018)

NoamL said:


> Is that yearly, Jeff?


The amounts they're showing are per minute, per airing. For example, if we use the $130/minute figure, if you have one minute of BG music in a show and it airs one time and never reruns, you make $130. If that show reruns 5 times (for a total of 6 times), you make 6 * $130 = $780.

Quarterly or yearly are only factors in that that's when payments are added up and sent. In other words, if all 6 airings occur in a single quarter, that quarterly check is $780. (And your next check will be $0.) If each airing is 3 months apart, then each quarterly check for the next 6 quarters will be $130.


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## Mike Greene (Apr 17, 2018)

chillbot said:


> This is what I had from BMI per minute of BG music for primetime shows last quarter:
> 
> abc 132.90
> cbs 210.52
> ...


That seems odd. I'm ASCAP and stopped asking about rates some time ago, so maybe things have changed, but it used to be that ABC, NBC and CBS paid identical rates, Fox was a little less. Prime time paid 100% of the base rate, afternoon paid 75%, morning paid 50%, and late night (1am to 7am) paid 25%. Ratings were not a factor, so if a show had low ratings (like all shows I work on!), it still pays the same as a ratings hit. Minutes and time slot are (or were) all that matter.

It was also policy that for network airings (which are the easiest airings to make apples to apples comparisons), ASCAP and BMI paid identically, otherwise one could be proven to be "better." (If there was a disparity, the networks would scream that one PRO was over-charging, and we would all lose if that happened.)

I think I might have heard that they now take ratings into account, so maybe that's why Chillbot's numbers are different. Or maybe different time slots. Honestly, I stopped reading my statements years ago (how sad it is that I've become so jaded that I only care about the total?), so I'm not really sure what the latest rules are.


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## chillbot (Apr 18, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> I think I might have heard that they now take ratings into account, so maybe that's why Chillbot's numbers are different.


I do believe BMI has started taking ratings into account and paying on a sliding scale. They also have bonuses for "super usages" (not exactly sure) but on the flip side don't pay segment themes anymore like ASCAP. I can't say I fully understand all of it.

Also the "big 3" in recent years have tended to be NBC, CBS, and FOX. ABC has fallen a bit in stature. FOX was the one that used to have a huge disparity between ASCAP/BMI causing many people to switch PROs around 10 years ago, causing the disparity to swing in the other direction...


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## chillbot (Apr 18, 2018)

RiffWraith said:


> Would you mind very much if I asked you to up a shot?





Mike Greene said:


> That seems odd.


On further digging, I had a bunch of tracks on "American Grit" (FOX) which is what RiffWraith posted and they paid $168/minute which is much closer to his $143/minute anyway. It was "Hell's Kitchen" (FOX) that paid $258/minute. Sorry, can't explain.


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 18, 2018)

I have usage in 4 episodes in one particular show, and my royalties don't amount to much at all --though they are welcome. I would get your music registered as soon as you can. My problem was that these tracks were registered by Travel Channel (or whoever) sending the cue sheets in to BMI, so after the episodes had already aired (and no back-royalties are paid). For me, 4 episodes every quarter for the last 2 years has been anywhere from $20-75. So maybe 23 would be 120-450$ every quarter (depending on the show)?
It really depends on when and if they reair the episodes as well.
Still hate that I didn't have the tracks registered when the episodes first aired. It's not the most popular show in the world (Ghost Adventures) but it's also not really a slacker (if they can put out 15+ seasons).
So I have no idea how much you'd get if you have all of your music already registered at the time of the initial airing, but I imagine that it could be quite significant. I don't have a big enough sample size to really give you much useful info. I guess I'm just a small case study.


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 18, 2018)

I guess what I'm saying is that my royalties seem to be controlled by the ratings. I also don't have big clips being used. So that's definitely part of it, too. If you have a full track then I'm sure you'd get significally more than me.


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## chillbot (Apr 18, 2018)

Sibelius19 said:


> It's not the most popular show in the world (Ghost Adventures) but it's also not really a slacker (if they can put out 15+ seasons).



Ghost Adventures is on the Travel Channel which typically pays (on BMI) only in the $1-$2/minute range, unfortunately. The money comes from having a lot of minutes, in a lot of episodes, and having them re-air a lot of times, which will happen with cable. (Network, on the other hand, pays more but very rarely re-airs shows). It can add up significantly.

I had tracks on Ghost Adventures and it paid $1.73/minute.



Sibelius19 said:


> I would get your music registered as soon as you can. My problem was that these tracks were registered by Discover Channel (or whoever) sending the cue sheets in to BMI



This is standard. Registering your works in this case is not going to do anything for you, they are not going to pay you until they have the cue sheet, at which point your tracks are automatically registered.



Sibelius19 said:


> (and no back-royalties are paid)



This is not true. BMI will usually pay back royalties automatically when they receive the cue sheet. But if they don't, if you bring it to their attention, they often will set it straight.


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 18, 2018)

chillbot said:


> Ghost Adventures is on the Travel Channel which typically pays (on BMI) only in the $1-$2/minute range, unfortunately. The money comes from having a lot of minutes, in a lot of episodes, and having them re-air a lot of times, which will happen with cable. (Network, on the other hand, pays more but very rarely re-airs shows). It can add up significantly.
> 
> I had tracks on Ghost Adventures and it paid $1.73/minute.
> 
> ...



Then I am getting conflicing information from BMI support. They said that you may get royalties for things which are not on a CUE sheet, and that back royalties are not paid. 
I suppose if a track had to have a cue sheet to get a payment, then they'd have to pay back payments, otherwise, they would almost certainly underpay you. I've had cue sheets sent in several months after the initial airing in some cases.


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## SillyMidOn (Apr 18, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> Honestly, I stopped reading my statements years ago


That sounds familiar... 

Payments are a riddle. Sometimes I get a high sync/mechanical fee for a well-known show that is going to be broadcast world-wide, and you go "great, roylaties for years to come" and then the statement is paltry. Then at other times I have received low sync fees for a well known global show, and then the back-end was big. I've spoke to publishers about that and they've given up trying to make exact sense of that years ago. Incidentally, the PRS just changed the way it calculates its rates. Here the new ones for tv:

*Current bands:*
_Band one_: All times apart from 18:00 to 22:59

1x weighting on per minute rate

_Band two_: 18:00 to 22:59

2x weighting on per minute rate

*New bands:*
_Band one_: midnight to 15:59

1 x weighting on per minute rate

_Band two_: 16:00 to 17:59, and 23:00 to 23:59

2x weighting on per minute rate

_Band three_: 18:00 to 22:59

3x weighting on per minute rate


.... which should mean more money - and they have done this to better reflect how many people watch tv at those times.

--

On a slight tangent, has anyone ever used the Kobalt Neighbouring Rights Service?

https://www.kobaltmusic.com/services/neighbouring-rights


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## RiffWraith (Apr 18, 2018)

Ratings do play a role, so....



chillbot said:


> On further digging, I had a bunch of tracks on "American Grit" (FOX) which is what RiffWraith posted and they paid $168/minute which is much closer to his $143/minute anyway. It was "Hell's Kitchen" (FOX) that paid $258/minute. Sorry, can't explain.



That could explain the disparity.


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## RiffWraith (Apr 18, 2018)

Sibelius19 said:


> (and no back-royalties are paid).



What do you mean, exactly?


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## Erick - BVA (Apr 18, 2018)

RiffWraith said:


> What do you mean, exactly?


Well, let's say a track is played on a show before it is registered on BMI. So they can't really track the usage before it's registered. I was told by BMI that they do not pay retro payments for royalties. But it doesn't make sense to me now, cause they would only know it's being used after the cue sheets get sent. So I'm going to have to contact BMI and have them explain stuff more to me.


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## chillbot (Apr 18, 2018)

Sibelius19 said:


> Well, let's say a track is played on a show before it is registered on BMI. So they can't really track the usage before it's registered. I was told by BMI that they do not pay retro payments for royalties. But it doesn't make sense to me now, cause they would only know it's being used after the cue sheets get sent. So I'm going to have to contact BMI and have them explain stuff more to me.


They do track the shows before they have the cue sheets, and they do pay back royalties, a lot of the times but not always. It definitely helps if you get the cue sheet in a few months after it airs and not a few years. There's often a lot of factors involved. Good luck!


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## Mike Greene (Apr 18, 2018)

With ASCAP, I've gotten back royalties lots of times. Cue sheets get turned in late, or they mis-spelled my name (Green instead of Greene happens all the time.) The official line is that there is some maximum amount of time they'll go back (I think 9 or 18 months?) but they've waived it several times for me. I'm sure BMI is similar.

Regarding registering songs, as Chillbot said, it's unnecessary. I never register cues that go into TV shows. If it's on the cue sheet, you get paid. No song registration necessary. Easy peasy. The song (cue) names are irrelevant. They just add up the minutes for Mike Greene and they're done. It's really as simple as that.

Mind you, if you're doing songs that might get played on the radio, then you _do_ need to register them, since that's a completely different process, especially with ASCAP. Songs for records (or whatever they call the format now) is the main reason for registering songs, not TV or film usage.


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## reddognoyz (Apr 18, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> With ASCAP, I've gotten back royalties lots of times. Cue sheets get turned in late, or they mis-spelled my name (Green instead of Greene happens all the time.) The official line is that there is some maximum amount of time they'll go back (I think 9 or 18 months?) but they've waived it several times for me.



I think the party line is 3 years.


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## RiffWraith (Apr 18, 2018)

Sibelius19 said:


> I was told by BMI that they do not pay retro payments for royalties.



That should not be true. Sure, they cannot track cues prior to registration, and they may go back only so far. But registration occurring and the cue sheet being submitted after the show airs should not mean that royalties would not be paid - they should.

I would def get with BMI and have someone clarify.

Cheers.


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## SillyMidOn (Apr 18, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> The official line is that there is some maximum amount of time they'll go back (I think 9 or 18 months?) but they've waived it several times for me.



Sometimes the money just gets stuck in "the system", certainly when it comes to oversees payments. I once had a placement in Hungary that was paid 5 years late, and the good old BBC, well somehow I got a payment last year for usage during the 2012 Olympics broadcast. 

Hm.


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## Desire Inspires (Apr 18, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> Honestly, I stopped reading my statements years ago (how sad it is that I've become so jaded that I only care about the total?), so I'm not really sure what the latest rules are.



Good stuff.

I read my statements and can’t make any sense of them. The statements and stats look nice, but there is so much luck that goes into getting payouts for placements.

I filed 6 inquiries back in October, and ASCAP is just starting to look into them and close them out. I got confirmation that I am only getting royalties for one of the airings. Even though my song was placed, some of the shows did not show up in the ASCAP survey, so I will not be paid.

I am probably going to switch to BMI at the end of the year.


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## dannymc (Apr 20, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> Good stuff.
> 
> I read my statements and can’t make any sense of them. The statements and stats look nice, but there is so much luck that goes into getting payouts for placements.
> 
> ...



yes this ASCAP survey thing is absolutely ridiculous. how ASCAP can stand over this system and expect composers to be happy is beyond belief. this is primitive stuff. i too will probably be switching at the end of the year before my works get to a substantial amount. 

Danny


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## ghostnote (Apr 20, 2018)

The whole system needs a revision...


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