# Buying What We Don't Need/Getting To Know Your Tools



## Dan Mott (Feb 15, 2014)

Mural was my last lib. I will not be buying anymore. We all have bought what we don't need and I am one of those people. Today I made a promise to my self that I'd get to know my current tools and stop searching for an instant answer. It's already helped a lot in terms of creativity and I thought I'd create a discussion about this. Perhaps some of you are in the same boat.

I also deleted a lot of libs off my HD.

I will be using what I have and create my own sounds combined with a Couple of libs, one synth and my Zoom H4N.

I swear though. If any one of you catch me buying a lib (which I won't), I will buy you a library my self, valued under 500 USD. This is how confident I am.

Anyway. Just thought I would share this with you.


----------



## muk (Feb 15, 2014)

What's the matter? Are you not pleased with the evolution of sample libraries? Or do you think Mural is the ultimate and you won't need anything else? Basically, are you extremely happy with what you have already, or very unhappy?


----------



## Dan Mott (Feb 15, 2014)

muk @ Sat Feb 15 said:


> What's the matter? Are you not pleased with the evolution of sample libraries? Or do you think Mural is the ultimate and you won't need anything else? Basically, are you extremely happy with what you have already, or very unhappy?



Hello

No. I am not pleased with the evolution of sample libs. I would rather not discuss that in this thread. I just know I'd probably upset someone, ect. Oh.... and most likely some heated discussion.

Mural is not the ultimate, it's just officially my last lib purchase.

I am very happy with what I have, which actually isn't much. I just think that I could be ten times more creative this way. Recording my own sources and discovering what I'd like to express through music. I think having little sample libs would help immensely. It actually already has.


----------



## Robert Kooijman (Feb 15, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

Haha, this post made me smile. Think I know where you are coming from...

Perhaps Dan realized he's more productive with using / knowing only a handful of tools rather then directing a whole army  Right? Wrong?

Edit: Dan just gave his answer two minutes earlier.


----------



## Sid Francis (Feb 15, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

I understand you sooo well, Dan. 

Nevertheless: I hereby swear that I will buy a lot of libs in the future and more than 2/3rd of them will be entirely useless for me. Nevertheless will I buy more. :oops: 8) 

But I know exactly what you are talking about. I am just too weak... o


----------



## Dan Mott (Feb 15, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



Sid Francis @ Sat Feb 15 said:


> I understand you sooo well, Dan.
> 
> Nevertheless: I hereby swear that I will buy a lot of libs in the future and more than 2/3rd of them will be entirely useless for me. Nevertheless will I buy more. :oops: 8)
> 
> But I know exactly what you are talking about. I am just too weak... o



Be strong young one. You will get there.


----------



## Daryl (Feb 15, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



Dan Mott @ Sat Feb 15 said:


> Yep. I am done. Mural was my last lib. I will not be buying anymore.
> 
> I also deleted a lot of libs off my HD.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the club. Although, to be fair, I think I did spend a couple of quid on a download instrument last year, :wink: 

D


----------



## ed buller (Feb 15, 2014)

i'm with you ! haven't touched my DAW for months. Been on the laptop writing into sibeluis. loads more productive. 

e


----------



## kitekrazy (Feb 15, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

When you get outside of the orchestra libraries many of them are marketed towards those who are lazy or ignorant with synthesis and sound design.
There was a time when a DAW like Reason had more limitations and yet remained on the market.

How many of us actually know how many libraries are on our system. I don't think I've went through every sound in the Kontakt library. It wasn't too long ago some revealed that Kontakt has a choir library.


----------



## G.E. (Feb 15, 2014)

I'm sure you already have enough.Someone once told me "If you can't make great music with what you already have,chances are you will probably never make great music no matter how many libraries you buy"

Unfortunately I'm not as strong as you.I think I may have a compulsive buying disorder.I should probably see a psychiatrist about that. :lol: :lol:


----------



## paulmatthew (Feb 15, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



Dan Mott @ Sat Feb 15 said:


> Yep. I am done. Mural was my last lib. I will not be buying anymore.
> 
> I also deleted a lot of libs off my HD.
> 
> ...



I'll take you up on that offer :wink:


----------



## pavolbrezina (Feb 15, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



Dan Mott @ Sat Feb 15 said:


> Yep. I am done. Mural was my last lib. I will not be buying anymore.
> 
> I also deleted a lot of libs off my HD.
> 
> ...



Did you realise that learning to compose music is 99% and libraries are 1%?  

If yes I am happy for you...


----------



## bigcat1969 (Feb 15, 2014)

If you are broke like me, want to continue collecting and like finding odd, esoteric and crappy sounds go looking for free and old sounds. I just looked and I have over 1000 sf2s, 25 sfzs and 200 free kontakts and those range from a single instrument to a whole orchestra.
It's free and highly entertaining. Also its a great way to keep from actually working.


----------



## paulmatthew (Feb 15, 2014)

bigcat1969 @ Sat Feb 15 said:


> If you are broke like me, want to continue collecting and like finding odd, esoteric and crappy sounds go looking for free and old sounds. I just looked and I have over 1000 sf2s, 25 sfzs and 200 free kontakts and those range from a single instrument to a whole orchestra.
> It's free and highly entertaining. Also its a great way to keep from actually working.



But it is fun finding free and unique stuff out there. Sometimes you just have to , broke or not.


----------



## Blackster (Feb 15, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

I hear you, Dan!  ... and I'm totally with you. Let creativity drive you, not more pre-shaped sample libraries (which are great though). o/~


----------



## dpasdernick (Feb 15, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

Dan. Maybe we should have a contest to see you can get you "off the wagon"

Dark Planet from Steinberg is only $25 Dan... Come on... just take a sip... just one more... no one's looking... you can start your sample sobriety tomorrow... Dark Planet will allow you to write that illusive hit song... it's half price... you can't even get a decent pizza for $25... you had a rough day at the office... indulge a little... your peers will pass you buy if you don't make this purchase... all the cool kids are doing it... the hot chicks will say "Dan's so amazing... he buys cool samples all the time"...

I'm just trying to save you here Dan... it's a losing battle... come back to the dark side...


----------



## Madrigal (Feb 15, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

The only reason I keep buying libraries is because of taxe purposes. 

It's been a while since I really _needed_ something and I don't even have that many VIs.


----------



## Daryl (Feb 15, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

I think that as a group, composers can get too absorbed in detail, when it comes to these sort of things. It is so easy to be seduced by the newest product that may (or usually not) make the music sound a little bit more real, that we forget that the client really doesn't care. It is more important to make the track sound good. That's what they hear, and the best sample library in the world won't make a bad piece of music into a good one. You need real players for that. :lol: 

D


----------



## Goran (Feb 15, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



Daryl @ Sat Feb 15 said:


> ...and the best sample library in the world won't make a bad piece of music into a good one. You need real players for that. :lol:



:lol: /\~O


----------



## germancomponist (Feb 15, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



Daryl @ Sat Feb 15 said:


> I think that as a group, composers can get too absorbed in detail, when it comes to these sort of things. It is so easy to be seduced by the newest product that may (or usually not) make the music sound a little bit more real, that we forget that the client really doesn't care. It is more important to make the track sound good. That's what they hear, and the best sample library in the world won't make a bad piece of music into a good one. You need real players for that. :lol:
> 
> D



+1

As I mentioned in another thread: A good friend of mine, a world wide well known composer/producer..., uses many old libraries like Advanced Orchestra also nowadays.

o=<


----------



## aaronnt1 (Feb 15, 2014)

What about the rest of the Mural range?

I wonder whether you'll be able to resist whatever it is that Spectrasonics come out with next...


----------



## Arbee (Feb 15, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

Perhaps something like this is the problem:

http://stuartknightproductions.com/do-you-fall-for-the-hype/

It's so easy to get swept up in the hype and ignore what our ears and our brains are trying to tell us.

I'm not finished with sample libraries at all, but I am very hype resistant and have saved an absolute fortune lately.

.


----------



## AlexandreSafi (Feb 15, 2014)

I think that in this day & age, people are looking for the latest sounds to do the work for them, to elevate them, to make them shine, as for technology in general...

How about going the other way around and making a commitment to making the music shine, then you'll need a lot less than you think...

I think that in the end, it will always be about the notes, in space & time, and the purpose and commitment behind them, that's why you get an enduring fixed set of instrumental tools in the standard orchestra ever-since the 20th century and yet offers so many possibilities for a different sound every time...

The heart and the mastery of your craft are key here...

As to samples, 

I think we're reaching a stage (with for example LASS-Cinesamples-Spitfire,etc..) where we're really starting to be able to get a surprising organic new sound each time you sit down and start writing a new piece, and those samples could probably become as relevant in 15-20 years as having a grand piano in your living room for that same amount of time! 

I'm even sure that Mr. Zimmer isn't about collecting the beastiest orchestral samples each year. He gets the job done, because his heart & mind can instantly make the right choices to produce a different sound as he intends, based on his mastery and well-rounded knowledge of his personal baby-tools...

Alex


----------



## Dan Mott (Feb 15, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



dpasdernick @ Sun Feb 16 said:


> Dan. Maybe we should have a contest to see you can get you "off the wagon"
> 
> Dark Planet from Steinberg is only $25 Dan... Come on... just take a sip... just one more... no one's looking... you can start your sample sobriety tomorrow... Dark Planet will allow you to write that illusive hit song... it's half price... you can't even get a decent pizza for $25... you had a rough day at the office... indulge a little... your peers will pass you buy if you don't make this purchase... all the cool kids are doing it... the hot chicks will say "Dan's so amazing... he buys cool samples all the time"...
> 
> I'm just trying to save you here Dan... it's a losing battle... come back to the dark side...




No no no. It is you that must be saved. I quit sample libs. I have done my rehab. I am clean and planning on staying that way :D


----------



## Dan Mott (Feb 15, 2014)

aaronnt1 @ Sun Feb 16 said:


> What about the rest of the Mural range?
> 
> I wonder whether you'll be able to resist whatever it is that Spectrasonics come out with next...




To be honest. No matter how good the next volumes are, I will not be purchasing. I also have HS and I still lurve that library. Such a great sound. I didn't need another string lib, but suffered from wanting a shiney new string lib.

As for spectrasonics. I have omni. Plenty of sources.


----------



## NYC Composer (Feb 15, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

I will still be buying sample libraries- but only smaller, targeted libraries of things I don't have or don't have good versions of, or deeply discounted larger libraries. I have a budget. I maintain discipline


----------



## dannthr (Feb 15, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



Dan Mott @ Sat Feb 15 said:


> Yep. I am done. Mural was my last lib. I will not be buying anymore.
> 
> I also deleted a lot of libs off my HD.
> 
> ...



The mic pres on the H6 are significantly improved over the H4N (much lower noise floor).

Just sayin'!



Muahahahahahahahahahahaha! :twisted:


----------



## Dan Mott (Feb 15, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



dannthr @ Sun Feb 16 said:


> Dan Mott @ Sat Feb 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Yep. I am done. Mural was my last lib. I will not be buying anymore.
> ...



Ah shit. Really?

I noticed lot's of nice in the zoom.

But hey! That's not a sample lib :D


----------



## dannthr (Feb 15, 2014)

Plus, the H6 comes with both an adjustable XY mic and a Mid/Side mic attachment.


----------



## Atom Hub (Feb 16, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



Dan Mott @ Sat Feb 15 said:


> Yep. I am done. Mural was my last lib. I will not be buying anymore.
> 
> I also deleted a lot of libs off my HD.
> 
> ...



I did something like this... although not forbidding myself from buying another stuff if I like/need it, or more importantly, if it inspires me. Because there is a lot of talent out there and I would be nowhere having not known and bought some great libraries, which actually got me into sample libs making.

I think I perfectly understand your starving for creating your own sample stuff. You will surely explore a lot of new for yourself. But I think it is good to be aware of the fact, that this will consume a lot of your time. And (in my case) the question may arise in some time... am I a musician making music, or a sound designer making sounds, because both could be equally interesting and challenging and the day has only 24 hours . If this duality is not a problem, a lot of new sonic adventures await for you !


----------



## TheUnfinished (Feb 16, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

I get where you're coming from Dan. I'm looking to scale down what I use and am also looking to incorporate more hardware machines/techniques as I want to take my electronic/cinematic music into the live performance arena.

I'm currently working on a huge project of creating drum samples for my own use: synthesis, ethnic percussion, field recordings, sample manipulation, loops etc. 

Which feels like the last piece of the jigsaw for using only my own sounds, outside of traditional and ethnic instruments. And with those, I hope to be able to get live players for bigger projects.


----------



## Markus S (Feb 16, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

I stopped a while back now. I did feel that many of the newer libs didn't add much to the equation, mainly just quantity. So I think you decision is great and can lead to a huge improvement of your music.

It forces you to learn to better use the stuff you have, really dig into it, maybe reprogram it to your needs. 

Explore libraries deeper, there is much small stuff in there you probably never have looked at.

Not use more, but use it better. Learn about orchestration, mixing, instrument playing - it will benefit your music greatly and will cost you a lot less.

One thing I developed though is live recording and live playing, it really helps me to connect to my music and my writing.

There are newer libs which make me interested in, I might do an update at some point, but in many cases, at least to my ears there is still much to be done. I wish though sample development would have went to a "more with less" road. Lesser patches who are more flexible, rather than endless quantities of prerecorded stuff. Again, really like the sample modeling approach - I which I had one string ensemble patch that could do all articulation musically, like "The trumpet" or others.


----------



## Stephen Rees (Feb 16, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

I'm on the edge of doing the same Dan. Good on you mate!

For all the newer libraries I've bought, EWQLSO and the Symphobias are still the most potent orchestral samples I have, and they continue to deliver great results again and again.


----------



## Dan Mott (Feb 16, 2014)

Creating your own sounds is time consuming, especially with a synth, but I find I get faster results by mucking around with a source that's already inspiring, rather than starting with a sine wave, ect. That is what the zoom is for, as well as omni for anything I do not have access to record.

It is a lot more satisfying I think. I'd rather tweak my own than browse for that perfect patch. 

I made this choice because I have the time. I do not have crazy deadlines, so why not.

Plus IMO. It seems the older libs have more charm than the newer ones. Today libs are coming out so fast and most need updates. While updates are being delt with, more libs are popping out by the same company.


----------



## james7275 (Feb 16, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

Good luck, Dan! I'm sort of in the same boat as you now.
I'm not going to never buy anything again, but if the price is north of a $100 it will have to be a resale friendly company that I buy from. Speaking of that, I've got to contact a few developers and ask them how I go about selling a couple of their products.


----------



## ch4rles (Feb 16, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



Dan Mott @ Sat Feb 15 said:


> I swear though. If any one of you catch me buying a lib (which I won't), I will buy you a library my self, valued under 500 USD. This is how confident I am.



Can I have my $500 library now? You'll cave in, we all know that, so why wait?

I would like this one

http://www.samplemodeling.com/en/products_doublereeds.php (http://www.samplemodeling.com/en/produc ... ereeds.php)

which would be perfect with my TEC breath controller!


----------



## Dan Mott (Feb 16, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



ch4rles @ Mon Feb 17 said:


> Dan Mott @ Sat Feb 15 said:
> 
> 
> > I swear though. If any one of you catch me buying a lib (which I won't), I will buy you a library my self, valued under 500 USD. This is how confident I am.
> ...



I won't cave in. No temptation.

However, sure. If you catch me buying a lib, it is yours.


----------



## Shuriken (Feb 17, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

Congrats for escaping the brainwashed madness, good to see such people around. 
Although nice what digital tech is able to accomplish, samples are, in the end, DEAD like death, 
unless one mangles abstract life into them different genre perhaps..).


----------



## ch4rles (Feb 17, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



Dan Mott @ Mon Feb 17 said:


> ch4rles @ Mon Feb 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Dan Mott @ Sat Feb 15 said:
> ...



“The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it. Resist it, and your soul grows sick with longing for the things it has forbidden to itself”

― Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray


----------



## bigcat1969 (Feb 17, 2014)

To save money while craving more, more, more, I found one or two free instruments.
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 2&t=395805


----------



## Casiquire (Feb 17, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

I'm at a point now where I don't really need to buy any new libraries just because I have all the instruments I need. There are still a couple of "upgrades" I'll be getting but I'm not feeling any temptation at all with most of the new libraries coming out.

Though this comment from the LASS forum might just be the one to ruin all that blissful financial stability I have when I'm not buying sample libraries...:



> ...we are currently working on no less than 3 other releases... so things have been hectic here.


----------



## Giant_Shadow (Feb 17, 2014)

I am not finished entirely to say the the least, but I am finished with companies that are grumpy, do not respond to emails in a timely manner, talk down to you, do not stand behind there products or disappear, and one's who products do not stand up to there audio demo's. 

Recently I have found finding a few select companies to trust and stick with is the best way to go. Perhaps that advice may help some.


----------



## muziksculp (Feb 17, 2014)

Giant_Shadow @ Mon Feb 17 said:


> I am not finished entirely to say the the least, but I am finished, companies that are grumpy, do not respond to emails in a timely manner, talk down to you, do not stand behind there products or disappear, and one's who products do not stand up to there audio demo's.
> 
> Recently I have found finding a few select companies to trust and stick with is the best way to go. Perhaps that advice may help some.



+1 Yup. Very good advice, and imho. a very smart strategy. 

That's exactly what I'm doing these days. No need to go to either extreme. Just be selective, and evaluate your needs as best as possible, and yes, it takes some time to discover your tools, and how to use them to achieve your goals. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## Folmann (Feb 17, 2014)

I remember sitting with my Roland MT32 and thinking I never needed anything else. I might have ended up as a unique YouTube phenomena if I stated true to my promise, but that would have been it. The world of libraries is so beautiful now - cause people have alternatives and assemble somewhat personal templates. Libraries will continue to develop - and whoever restricts themselves from this development - will limit their potential. I think it's very true you gotta learn to use what you've got, but there is a point where you will expand your palette, your brush, your canvas, your colors, your textures and we (devs) will be there to help you.


----------



## dannthr (Feb 17, 2014)

The Washington Post - November said:


> *If Only They Knew*
> 
> “Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons.”
> – Popular Mechanics, forecasting the relentless march of science, 1949
> ...


_http://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/09/08/640k-enough/_

As long as computers are a part of your setup and as long as musical trends change and evolve, you will always need new kit, new gear, and you will always need to expand your production toolset.


----------



## Dan Mott (Feb 17, 2014)

I do agree that everyone needs a palette change every now and then, but this can also be done without sample devs. Perhaps not a full orchestra, but all the little bits and bobs that you can create your self.

I want to write with what I have, even though I am pretty sure I don't have everything and there is probably something I do not know of that could be of use to me. If I think like that then I don't think I will ever accomplish what I am trying to do right now, but instead I will be thinking that I shouldn't continue unless I 100 percent know that there isn't anything else I need. Does my head in.

Right now I can honestly say that I do not have any temptation for any library on the market right now. Not looking either :D


----------



## Folmann (Feb 17, 2014)

I like your modest way of thinking, yet how do you know when a sample library is exhausted? I don't think the discussion is so much about whether to use new libraries or not use new libraries - it is more about ones pursuit to develop a unique voice - and the means of doing so. Whatever it takes man - and without any stubborn theories or principles to block that pursuit. Whether its just you and Zoom - or its you and the largest sample template known to man.

I can guarantee you from a purely commercial point of view that things get dated really quickly - and there is a pressure on both composers and developers to keep the ball rolling.

The trends in EDM and hip-hop changes a couple of times a year - and the trend in scoring is surely undergoing radical changes too. Try to listen to epic music thats just a few years old and then listen to the things people produce today. Listen to soundtracks. EDM. It doesn't really matter - the speed of change is and will continue to increase and anyone denying so will be doing their careers a disfavor.

But the pursuit of a personal voice should come before any trends, software or hardware purchases - without that we will all be poor copies of much greater people.


----------



## Dan Mott (Feb 17, 2014)

How do I know when a sample lib is exhausted? Well that's a good question. I mean, does anyone know?

I suppose it is exhausted when you know you cannot getting anything new out of it, or are just plain sick of using it. Depends what library. It also depends for me if the library has a distinct sound. Perfect example of this would have to be Emotional Piano from Soundiron. It is a great piano and I love the sound, but it is so easy to tell if someone has used it. Once you have been using it for a long time you start to know what every key sounds like and all the little swirls it makes and noises, ect. I think those type of libs can get stale quite quickly, unless you are doing some sort of soind design.

I am geared towards libs that aren't as easy to recognize. Libs that have multiple mic pos, ect. I have a few of those that for me personally, I could use for the next 5 years and still be happy.

Again. Depends on the library IMO. Also the user and what type of music you are writing.

I guess it is a little easier for me to make this decision because I am not writing orchestral music/trailer music, nor doing mockups or classical scores.


----------



## Saxer (Feb 17, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

you can do better music with three good libraries than with fifteen - though it's good to have fifteen to choose from. 
but there's a point where you don't need another fifteen. you have to stay away from collecting for self purpose... or if so you must realize that you are a collector rather than a musician. which is ok too.


----------



## jleckie (Feb 17, 2014)

Do this. Next time something new comes in say to yourself, "Self, Can I do this with (Hollywood Strings) assuming you have that. Or if you ALMOST can do that with HS what can you do to make it CLOSE. 

If your buying a library SOLELY for say a feature, like OSTINATUMS in a Spitfire library. Say to yourself, "Self, are the Ostinatums alone worth the full price of the library"?

Those are just a couple of examples but you know what I mean Dan the man.


----------



## NYC Composer (Feb 17, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

To be honest, given unlimited funds I'd probably buy everything and hire an excellent assistant to do the transactions, download everything, filter through it all and sort out the best parts for me, all nicely set up in Larry- friendly templates with clear and concise explanations.


----------



## JT3_Jon (Feb 17, 2014)

To me, sample libraries are tools. Tools alone do not build anything, but they do help one realize their vision. If you feel there are better tools out there to realize your vision (in this case Dan's Zoom recorder) then thats what you should use. Granted you dont need the latest tools to get the job done, but sometimes they do help you realize your vision, so to declare to "never buy another sample library" to me is as naive as the composer who feels he needs to acquire all the latest sample libraries before they will write their first piece of music. Sample libraries again are just tools, and should be thought of as such. 

That being said, I noticed I personally was falling into the trap of buying new tools without fully exploring or getting the most out of what I already own, and have refocused myself on being creative and experimenting / learning again. But this does not mean I will never buy another musical tool, as they will ultimately continue to get better and better, allowing us to better realize in the physical world that elusive sound we all hear in our heads.


----------



## Jack Weaver (Feb 17, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

I plead guilty to having bought 'way more sample libs than I use to their fullest extent.

As of the past few months I've really slowed down the rate of purchase. It seems that almost every one I buy is just incrementally different/better to that which I already own. That's no longer sufficient. 

It seems to me that many developers are on autopilot. They're going into the studio and recording more samples without considering the nature of programming and concept that would really send their products in a new direction. It also seems like a bunch of these developers are doing quite well for themselves. That is good. More power to them. 

Still, something is missing... some conceptual depth that could really change the direction of sampled/virtual products. 

Those small amount of product that I do choose to purchase right now seem to be the ones that have the best quality control and most well thought-out programming. 

I expect more from these companies. Not just more of the same product.

My love is for sale. You just have to earn it. 

.


----------



## Guy Rowland (Feb 17, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



Jack Weaver @ Tue Feb 18 said:


> As of the past few months I've really slowed down the rate of purchase. It seems that almost every one I buy is just incrementally different/better to that which I already own. That's no longer sufficient.



I've failed to heed my own advice in this area...

1. Will the library enable me to do things I can't currently do?

2. Will the library significantly improve my workflow?

If the answer to either is YES then buy.


----------



## jneebz (Feb 17, 2014)

Folmann @ Mon Feb 17 said:


> But the pursuit of a personal voice should come before any trends, software or hardware purchases - without that we will all be poor copies of much greater people.



Excellent. May have to etch this onto my DAW monitor.

-J


----------



## Carles (Feb 17, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



Guy Rowland @ Tue Feb 18 said:


> Jack Weaver @ Tue Feb 18 said:
> 
> 
> > As of the past few months I've really slowed down the rate of purchase. It seems that almost every one I buy is just incrementally different/better to that which I already own. That's no longer sufficient.
> ...



I think that's pretty much the way to go.

Regarding point #1 it happened to me that bought a library and got used to its sound. At some point, (most likely because of my bad writing) have created an association between that sound and those parts of my bad writing that are not sounding good.
Now, a fresh new library pops up in Commercial Announcements, you listen at the demos and immediately you can recognize a timbre that you're not used to.
Immediately too, you feel a strong need to buy that baby and include that timbre in your palette because surely it will improve your sound, possibly the holly solution to your frustration. Of course you do intensive use of your new guest for a while replacing your "so odd" library and while the new timbre is still fresh to your ears seems that the new purchase is working fine.
After a while, you play an old mixdown you did time ago with your "so odd" library and you find that there is not such a quality difference between both libraries, even more, you got a new timbre recently but you also have lost a timbre that was working fine on a given phrase or part of register.
Then is when you realize that after spending a decent amount of money you didn't get anything better, just something -different- and you start regretting about the purchase (even more when the library you've purchased is under a non transferable license policy).
So, I cannot agree more with your point #1. Is the new library allowing me to do things I cannot do currently or it will just sounds different?
If it's just a matter of difference it is way cheaper to transpose your music a couple tones up or down and instantly it will sound quite different (and indeed this is a good exercise to find orchestration mistakes, to re-listen differently something that you've listened too many times, as we, the graphic artist do pften by rotating or reflecting an image to check the composition with "fresh eyes").

Re point #2, unless you are plenty of spare time to be filled with something this could be a good reason to justify a purchase. If it helps you to reach the same result in less time then it will justify the expense. And not only time, sometimes any given task can be really annoying so even if is not taking long time it can anyway kill your nerves.
So, agreed, a considerable workflow improvement is something I'd be willing to pay for (the same that a bad workflow can stop me using a well sounding library).


----------



## Dan Mott (Feb 17, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

For me I stopped because every purchase I made did not lead me any closer to making anything I wanted or getting some songs done. There is nothing I know of on the market that would help me write an album, I am sure I already have what I need, hence why I am finished. 

I have good strings. Don't need brass or traditional woodwinds. I have good percussion.

I can't seem to like any guitar lib on the market, but real guitars come in handy, as well as I know a few players 

Synths? Alchemy and Omni do me just fine. I even have Zebra, but don't use it as much as Alchemy.

Pianos - got plenty.

I don't see how this decision is naive. I see it as making my self more awake and productive. 

Change of palette is only necessary if what I currently have is completely blown out of the water by something new and I highly doubt that will happen at the speed these libs are coming out.


----------



## Jacob Cadmus (Feb 18, 2014)

I'm glad to read that more and more people are "trimming the fat" of their sound palette. I'm doing the same myself, partly because I'm running out of storage space, but also because I ended up going back to my old-faithful libraries.


----------



## muk (Feb 18, 2014)

As I see it there are a few milestone libraries, and then many many other who take a similar approach, broadening the choices you have. Some examples which I do see as such milestones:

VSL Woodwinds. I don't even know when they were released, but up to date I haven't heard any other library which was distinctly better. Neither for sound nor for workflow. VSL has set a standard here. While there have been many other woodwind releases since meeting that standard, none has clearly surpassed it.

Strings: LASS. Andrew came up with the inventive divisi concept. That added some things that couldn't be achieved with previous string libs. Then EWQL came up with Hollywood Strings, VSL with Dimension, Spitfire have Mural and Sable. So, there's a nice palette to choose the one you like best for sound and workflow. But while these are all slightly different, imo no one is distinctly better sonnically than LASS. So, if you have LASS and are happy with it, no real need to buy something else.

BRASS: SampleModeling Brass. Their modeling approach works really well for brass imo, and these libs added a lot in terms of workflow, while also sounding stunningly good.

What I'm trying to say: there are only precious few libraries which raise the bar up to a new standard. Then there come many many others, matching the new standard. And while all being a little different, sonnically they are on par, but not significantly better than the milestone lib.
How often can we read on this forum something like: "I wouldn't say percussion lib X replaces percussion lib Y completely. Rather, it complements it." Out of those, most of us don't need all of them. Or even two. Just choose the one that suits you best in terms of sound and workflow. Then wait for a lib that really replaces it, because it sets a new standard. And in many cases, that's a long wait.


----------



## TheUnfinished (Feb 18, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

I think another thing that is easy to forget is how much you can achieve with effects plug-ins.

You can take source material, throw EQ, delays, compression, pitch shifting, granular, sample reduction, etc. plugs at them and you have endless new sounds to play with.

And you haven't spent a single extra penny.


----------



## murrthecat (Feb 18, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

We are all different for taste, background, goals (artistic goals) and opinions, as artists and human beings and it would be a mistake and an expression of arrogance to impose our own truth to others. What works and for someone, may really not work for another one.

Personally I agree with Muk's last post on several points (LASS, VSL Woodwinds, Samplemodeling) and I like to add two small bits of personal experience with samples.

When I was going to buy LASS, a colleague friend of mine told me not to do it ("it doesn't sound as good as..." he told me), but I felt that was my kind of strings library, for my kind of writing, for my taste (drier vs. wet) etc. And it worked (and still works) as the best one for me, and although I loooove the sound of the newer string libraries, I resist the temptation of buying a new one for now, because I am happy with my current setup which I know and work very well for me. 

For Percussion, I am not ashamed to say that I still use most of the patches from EWQL SO. Percussions are easier to sample, it is odd maybe to use an old sample library but it works very good.

Samplemodeling seems to me another groundbreaking technology, very different from sample libraries, and capable of breaking the limits of what can be done with a virtual instrument. I like it very much but it all depends on our personal workflow, artistic vision and needs.

Ale


----------



## murrthecat (Feb 18, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



TheUnfinished @ Tue Feb 18 said:


> I think another thing that is easy to forget is how much you can achieve with effects plug-ins.
> 
> You can take source material, throw EQ, delays, compression, pitch shifting, granular, sample reduction, etc. plugs at them and you have endless new sounds to play with.
> 
> And you haven't spent a single extra penny.



Good point, Matt, and this is especially true in the hybrid orchestral styles.

Besides, plugins can be also powerful tools to find our own voice and to make samples sound more personal or just slighty different from the out-of-the-box sound...


----------



## NYC Composer (Feb 18, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



TheUnfinished @ Tue Feb 18 said:


> I think another thing that is easy to forget is how much you can achieve with effects plug-ins.
> 
> You can take source material, throw EQ, delays, compression, pitch shifting, granular, sample reduction, etc. plugs at them and you have endless new sounds to play with.
> 
> And you haven't spent a single extra penny.



Hey, is there a plug-in that can turn a sampled orchestra into something that sounds like a giant accordion?

Oh wait-I can already do that without plug-ins. Never mind!


----------



## mojamusic (Feb 18, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

I too am feeling the desire to stop buying so many libraries and just make muic with what I have...

So my second to last purchase will be either MAD drums or Drumasonic 2.
(I have most all of Superior SDX libs but, something tells me that I'll be happier with
one of the two I just mentioned :wink: )

After that I want a brass library that compliments LASS 2.

Then, I want that harmonica from Orange Samples. (I love his stuff plus I've always wanted one of those.

Then I'll get Project Bravo, although I haven't used Project Alpha, Bravo will turn things around for me. I almost 100% sure of that.

I'll be set after that. Unless of course there is a deal on Voxos. OMG I love the sound of the boys choir! Gotta have that ON SALE.


----------



## kitekrazy (Feb 18, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



TheUnfinished @ Tue Feb 18 said:


> I think another thing that is easy to forget is how much you can achieve with effects plug-ins.
> 
> You can take source material, throw EQ, delays, compression, pitch shifting, granular, sample reduction, etc. plugs at them and you have endless new sounds to play with.
> 
> And you haven't spent a single extra penny.



That's when you make money by creating and selling non orchestra libraries. Make sure you give them exotic names and everyone goes "wow".


----------



## dgburns (Feb 18, 2014)

Dan Mott @ Mon Feb 17 said:


> I do agree that everyone needs a palette change every now and then, but this can also be done without sample devs. Perhaps not a full orchestra, but all the little bits and bobs that you can create your self.
> 
> I want to write with what I have, even though I am pretty sure I don't have everything and there is probably something I do not know of that could be of use to me. If I think like that then I don't think I will ever accomplish what I am trying to do right now, but instead I will be thinking that I shouldn't continue unless I 100 percent know that there isn't anything else I need. Does my head in.
> 
> Right now I can honestly say that I do not have any temptation for any library on the market right now. Not looking either :D



gotta say though that i'm never tiring of buying drum libs like BFD etc.I write alot of beat based stuff,and drums/perc are always something I can get tired of.Maybe it's because they are short sounds,and the new scripting and uber levels of samples does create something new and more real to me.Also,when I use a very unique sounding lib on a job,i tend to be careful not to re-use it again in the same way,just to move away sound-wise from where i was in a previous job or gig.
also notice that things progress slowly but surely,and once in a while a seismic shift occurs in the industry.When that happens,you know you are going to have to pony up and pay the piper to stay current.

my two cents.


----------



## Dan Mott (Feb 18, 2014)

dgburns @ Wed Feb 19 said:


> Dan Mott @ Mon Feb 17 said:
> 
> 
> > I do agree that everyone needs a palette change every now and then, but this can also be done without sample devs. Perhaps not a full orchestra, but all the little bits and bobs that you can create your self.
> ...




I don't have BFD, but it looks very flexible. You could probably create heaps of custom kits, using sound design, ect. I just never picked it up because I already have too many drum libs and that may have just sat on my HD.

What I am trying to do is not use the same sounds in each track, except for say a string orchestra. I cannot afford real players. I go out with my Zoom/process all my current sources differently. I am also trying to create tracks from real life sources, just to see what happens creatively. 

I have recorded about 30 different sources so far. It's inspiring once they are in your DAW. Playing around with them is quite fun. Not something new, but I think it's a cool little project.


----------



## kb123 (Feb 18, 2014)

Dan Mott @ Wed Feb 19 said:


> What I am trying to do is not use the same sounds in each track, except for say a string orchestra. I cannot afford real players. I go out with my Zoom/process all my current sources differently. I am also trying to create tracks from real life sources, just to see what happens creatively.
> 
> I have recorded about 30 different sources so far. It's inspiring once they are in your DAW. Playing around with them is quite fun. Not something new, but I think it's a cool little project.



So you haven't finished with sample libraries, you have just decided to create your own rather than buy from someone else


----------



## Dan Mott (Feb 19, 2014)

kb123 @ Wed Feb 19 said:


> Dan Mott @ Wed Feb 19 said:
> 
> 
> > What I am trying to do is not use the same sounds in each track, except for say a string orchestra. I cannot afford real players. I go out with my Zoom/process all my current sources differently. I am also trying to create tracks from real life sources, just to see what happens creatively.
> ...




Yes. Have I not been saying that? :D

I will also be using what I currently have as well.


----------



## kb123 (Feb 19, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

The thread title is "finished with sample libraries", and you don't seem to be giving up using the ones you have bought. Also, you are creating your own custom samples, so, its not a particularly accurate thread title


----------



## Dan Mott (Feb 19, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



kb123 @ Wed Feb 19 said:


> The thread title is "finished with sample libraries", and you don't seem to be giving up using the ones you have bought. Also, you are creating your own custom samples, so, its not a particularly accurate thread title



Well, finished with sample libs, meaning I won't buy anymore. It seems everyone has been following just fine  

Not sure what else to call it,


This is what I initially said, in case you didn't read it

*"Yep. I am done. Mural was my last lib. I will not be buying anymore.

I also deleted a lot of libs off my HD.

I will be using what I have and create my own sounds combined with a Couple of libs, one synth and my Zoom H4N.

I swear though. If any one of you catch me buying a lib (which I won't), I will buy you a library my self, valued under 500 USD. This is how confident I am.

Anyway. Just thought I would share this with you"*


----------



## blougui (Feb 19, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

Dan, what synth do you plan to use ?
may be it's too much asking but what will be your fav weapon of choice as far as VI lib is concerned ?

Erik


----------



## Dan Mott (Feb 19, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



blougui @ Wed Feb 19 said:


> Dan, what synth do you plan to use ?
> may be it's too much asking but what will be your fav weapon of choice as far as VI lib is concerned ?
> 
> Erik




Alchemy. I seem to get a long with it, compared to Zebra and others. I also love Omni for sources I do not have access to.

Weapon of choice? hehe. I don't know really.

Here is what I currently have on my drive

- Hollywood Strings

- Evolution Series Perc

- HZ Perc

- Mural

- SD3/SD2

- Braunschweig/emo piano/walnut grand/art vista piano/my piano. Even all those pianos get a bit stale after a while, but I love pitching them down to make them sound different.

That's it. I guess those are the weapons I have kept.

Don't need brass. Don't need Woodwinds. Should really keep quiet on that one :D


----------



## mojamusic (Feb 20, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

Dan,

What libs did you get rid of?


----------



## Vin (Feb 20, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



Dan Mott @ 19/2/2014 said:


> Alchemy. I seem to get a long with it, compared to Zebra and others. I also love Omni for sources I do not have access to.



Great choice, it's a monster synth, so much possibilities. Not as intuitive as Omni IMO, but extremely capable. I use Omni and Alchemy almost exclusively.

Every time I feel temptation to buy the latest and greatest string or percussion library, I play myself this cue here: http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... oss+battle

Lass Lite, EWQLSO Percussion & Woods, Space Designer, it always reminds how much more time and hard work I have to spend to get the most out of what I already have, instead of buying newer and "better".


----------



## jleckie (Feb 20, 2014)

Hey Dan, How would you compare the usefulness of HZ perc with SD3?


----------



## TSU (Feb 20, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

deleted


----------



## blougui (Feb 20, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



Dan Mott @ Wed Feb 19 said:


> blougui @ Wed Feb 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Dan, what synth do you plan to use ?
> ...


Thanks for your answer, Dan.

- Erik


----------



## Dan Mott (Feb 20, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



mojamusic @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> Dan,
> 
> What libs did you get rid of?




Here is my list I got rid of

No offense to any dev here


- 8dio solo frame drums
- 8dio 1928 steinway
- 8dio epic dhol
- 8dio epic taiko and solo taiko
- 8dio epic frame drum
- Tonehammer epic toms
- Cinesamples drums of War 1 
- Cinesamples Drums of War 2
- Orange Tree acoustic guitar
- Orange Tree electric guitar
- Spitfire Felt Piano
- EW Gypsy
- EW Ministry of rock
- EW Pianos


I think that's it. I realized that I did not have many libs to begin with, compared to quite a few people around here.
-


----------



## Dan Mott (Feb 20, 2014)

jleckie @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> Hey Dan, How would you compare the usefulness of HZ perc with SD3?




Hmm.

For me they are two completely different libs. I don't think they compare really.

However, HZ Perc is a lot more playable than SD3. I find when I am playing at my keys in SD3, I seem to always hear the same sample quite often and I don't think there are enough RRs. Most instruments have 4RRs and it's so obvious as to where the RRs begin, making it sound a little mechanical (sounds like 1,2,3,4 1,2,3,4. Over and over again), so you really have to play with velocity as well. I thought it would have branched off the programming approach that Nick took in SD2, but it's quite similar in 3.

The sound of SD3 is really great. Well engineered. The mics pos are useful too. The only instruments I think that sound awful are the taikos. The big taiko drums sound like they were recorded in a small glass tank. They sound boxy and full of mud. I can't say I will get any use out of those at all. Not even EQ can help them. Nick claims SD3 has the best taikos, but I disagree :D. 

Again, two different libs, but I generally have more fun playing HZ perc and experimenting with the mic pos and layering.


----------



## jleckie (Feb 20, 2014)

Thanks for the review/assessment Dan.


----------



## handz (Feb 21, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

...said no composer EVER


----------



## Dan Mott (Feb 21, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



handz @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> ...said no composer EVER




What?


----------



## eric aron (Feb 21, 2014)

Folmann @ Mon Feb 17 said:


> I like your modest way of thinking, yet how do you know when a sample library is exhausted? I don't think the discussion is so much about whether to use new libraries or not use new libraries - it is more about ones pursuit to develop a unique voice - and the means of doing so. Whatever it takes man - and without any stubborn theories or principles to block that pursuit. Whether its just you and Zoom - or its you and the largest sample template known to man.
> 
> I can guarantee you from a purely commercial point of view that things get dated really quickly - and there is a pressure on both composers and developers to keep the ball rolling.
> 
> ...



yes, and this is all the perversity of our now "commercial" system, slaving people to trends and blind them with the dead-magic "new" word. The real novelty is anti social. The general consensus vote for a common denominator using little possible ripples in the water, so not true novelty is tolerated by the general strategy. Thus pursuing a personal voice has nothing to do with a career, nor any trend. The speed of change is just the illusion of change, in reality nothing happens but the repeat of the same vain mask with infinite variants. This system can just generates cheap copies. And every generation of copy looses more and more its intrinsic content. The soul, the living mater from the original inspired musicians is gone since long, unless in establishing again the right contexts.
Nobody needs to own 12000 scripts, 3245 articulations, 65778 variants of this or that sampled instrument to be a creative genius. Creativity is linked to much more simpler parameters, far from this pathological commercial galaxy.
The real inspiration and creativity never get outdated.


----------



## AC986 (Feb 21, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

How does Alchemy compare to Zebra 2 gents?


----------



## germancomponist (Feb 21, 2014)

eric aron @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> The real inspiration and creativity never get outdated.



This!


----------



## Dan Mott (Feb 21, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



adriancook @ Sat Feb 22 said:


> How does Alchemy compare to Zebra 2 gents?




In Alchemy you can import custom sources and play with them in many ways. Zebra cannot do this. It has quite a powerful additive section and spectral section.

Other than that, I think it is just work flow prwference. I remember I bought Zebra just because I knew HZ used it, but I just kept going back to Alchemy personally. That is just my personal preference.


----------



## danielcartisano (Feb 21, 2014)

Dan, based on a lot of our conversations I think you're doing the right thing for YOURSELF. We've spoken about your struggles of finishing a piece of music or not being able to express yourself properly and I think a lot of it comes from you being caught up on the sonic perfection of everything you own. We'd discuss for hours about different libraries and sounds (while I worked away - sorry for the late replies) but at the end I never really heard anything.

Now to me for a minute, as a few have already said here, and as I have told you before, my music starts in my head. I don't open a library and try and get Mural to write me something or inspire me. Yes this sometimes works, but not always. For me, it starts in my head. My idea and my expression, my sound; it all starts in my head. This is the core. I don't NEED the libraries I own, but they help me shape my sound.

A comment on the old craftsman phrase, the craftsman cannot build a house with his bare hands. He needs tools. The end product needed those tools. If you didn't have these tools than our music would stay in our head, (or on paper) but it'd never move from there. The end idea comes from his brain. The tools do not work without the brain. Orchestral libraries are there to provide us with an orchestral palette of sounds that we cannot usually afford or obtain. They may not be perfect, but they provide us with that area nonetheless. Guitar libraries provide us with guitars, and may be of use to those who do not own guitars or cannot play guitar. See what I'm getting at? They have their use and you use them to shape your sound or help you and your idea. We shouldn't buy libraries because they're the hottest new thing. Yes, sometimes its hard not to get caught up with the commercial side of things, but nonetheless, we should buy them when we need those sounds. Some libraries work out of the box and others need tweaking. I tweak just about everything, and even if you never use it, its nice to have them for source material. I used some ethnic instrument from Silk once to create a tinny/sparkly high pitched rattle using delays and shit... I wouldn't be able to get the same sound using my guitar or a ukulele.

Now back to you... You sent me something yesterday that I loved and the best thing about it is that it was unique. I could tell (for the first time I've heard) that you were focusing on what you were hearing in your mind rather than what instruments and synths sound like. You were writing because you wanted to express something. It's sounded fucking great and you made most of the sounds yourself. Awesome, and if this decision is helping you write music like that then so be it, but remember, don't limit yourself. One day you may have all this and realise, "damn, flautando strings would make this track really shine", then you can open up a string library and say, "well, thank fuck I bought you."

Anyway, keen to hear more of your creations. I've been doing my own sound-design more than ever and loving it. Need to pick up a Zoom H6 soon. 

On a side note - How the hell can you throw out a piano?? I use 1928 Steinway from 8Dio ALL the time. Even if I don't use it in a project I use it as just a base for playing back my ideas or finding a progression or pattern that really resonates with me. I use it for atmos stuff, percussive sounds, distorted stings... endless possibilities.


----------



## Vin (Feb 21, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



adriancook @ 21/2/2014 said:


> How does Alchemy compare to Zebra 2 gents?



It's a different beast. Both are complex and very powerful. Alchemy uses samples (and it does VA as well) and have some very interesting features: additive, granular and spectral synthesis. Zebra doesn't use samples.



danielcartisano @ 21/2/2014 said:


> How the hell can you throw out a piano??



Maybe like this? :mrgreen:


----------



## danielcartisano (Feb 21, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



Vin @ Sat Feb 22 said:


> danielcartisano @ 21/2/2014 said:
> 
> 
> > How the hell can you throw out a piano??
> ...



Hahaha insane. Hope they sampled that impact... =o


----------



## blougui (Feb 21, 2014)

eric aron @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> Folmann @ Mon Feb 17 said:
> 
> 
> > I like your modest way of thinking, yet how do you know when a sample library is exhausted? I don't think the discussion is so much about whether to use new libraries or not use new libraries - it is more about ones pursuit to develop a unique voice - and the means of doing so. Whatever it takes man - and without any stubborn theories or principles to block that pursuit. Whether its just you and Zoom - or its you and the largest sample template known to man.
> ...



But Troels is not saying anything else. He's talking about making money out of commercial music, like composing for the media, and thus following the trends. As a composer for films, ads, whatever, you work under a brief. It's not exactly a question of creativity  
If I understand - and read - his words in its entirety :


> But the pursuit of a personal voice should come before any trends, software or hardware purchases - without that we will all be poor copies of much greater people.


May be I got your thoughts wrong, but I 've read it quite often, be it music, illustration, writing the confusion between a career in where you work for a client and the selfexpression of the artist, raisung his own voice and so on. Well, sometimes the 2 matches but for the vast majority of us, it's 2 different things, using the same material/starting point. 
As a writer having written and published heroic fantasy I can tell you I was not precisely exposing my guts. When I composed music for a couple of documentaries, 5 or so years ago, I was not showing anything about my inermost soul nore my exceptional talent at being original : I was responding to a brief and was more than happy to have EWQL SO at my fingertips.
And yes, you don't need this wealth of libs to express yourself - but to make a living and write as the speed of light to meet the requirements of your clients, and crazy deadlines, they sure come in handy.

edit : and yes, advertisement is evil  But it can pay the bills well...

(sorry for my bad english).

Erik


----------



## Resoded (Feb 21, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



Vin @ 21st February 2014 said:


> danielcartisano @ 21/2/2014 said:
> 
> 
> > How the hell can you throw out a piano??
> ...



See, this is what happens if you cut music from schools.


----------



## Dan Mott (Feb 21, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

@Daniel

Hey buddy. I completely agree with what you said and yes, I feel this approach has opened my mind a bit and made me really think about what I am doing. I guess most of the time I rely on libraries to inspire me and help me write, but if I have no inital idea to begin with then it is just pointless I suppose and it would be a lot harder to finish a piece when having no direction.

About the piano. I only threw one piano out :D. Just can't seem to like the 8dio one. Personal taste. I have plenty more pianos to do sound design with


----------



## AC986 (Feb 21, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



Dan Mott @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> adriancook @ Sat Feb 22 said:
> 
> 
> > How does Alchemy compare to Zebra 2 gents?
> ...



Cheers Dan. I might get it when I can afford it. I have a Prophet 08 that I have never gotten round to using, so I will take your recommendation. I never get the chance to use synthesisers at the moment and want to get back into it soon.

Ditto Vin.


----------



## eric aron (Feb 21, 2014)

blougui / Erik : this is a question of life choice. Of course if you work for "clients", you have to serve them. You have not to exist by yourself as a creator, but just as a tool, to fill a space in a global frame in which your official weight is insignificant. (even if this is a paradox, because music is so much more important in its influence on the image than the lean fee and disregard given to). This business field is not the one for humanism and generosity.

I have had deep conversations with great film composers, and this job eats you slowly but fully, drying your soul, driving you away from the true essence of music.

I decided some years ago that this was not for me, for many reasons, ethical, personal, creative. I also did before my part in film, tv, writing hundreds of musics for such "clients". And I am so happy now to express musically in the way I feel the most natural, with no limit on my evolution. There is no more "career", I just serve music.


----------



## blougui (Feb 21, 2014)

eric aron @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> blougui / Erik : this is a question of life choice. Of course if you work for "clients", you have to serve them. You have not to exist by yourself as a creator, but just as a tool, to fill a space in a global frame in which your official weight is insignificant. (even if this is a paradox, because music is so much more important in its influence on the image than the lean fee and disregard given to). This business field is not the one for humanism and generosity.
> 
> I have had deep conversations with great film composers, and this job eats you slowly but fully, drying your soul, driving you away from the true essence of music.
> 
> I decided some years ago that this was not for me, for many reasons, ethical, personal, creative. I also did before my part in film, tv, writing hundreds of musics for such "clients". And I am so happy now to express musically in the way I feel the most natural, with no limit on my evolution. There is no more "career", I just serve music.



I must agree with you, Eric. I'm mostly a hobbyist, twiddling knobs, a few bars here, a few bars there - a pop record went out this month to wich I contributed by writting lyrics and co-writing the music of one song in an 11 tracks effort, and though I was in the studio during the recording of this very song and played badly piano,I was there as a witness, not really as a full-fledged pro. 
I understand plainly your point of view. Unless ones is a genius of some sort and can impose his voice, working on tight deadlines, on briefs that sound like nuts with people not interested in music and ignorant of the amount of work and entitlement that goes with the job can dry away the simple pleasure to... play.

- Erik


----------



## TheUnfinished (Feb 21, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



adriancook @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> I have a Prophet 08 that I have never gotten round to using, so I will take your recommendation.


This makes me sad.

Unless you plan to sell it o me for a knock down price. That would make me happy.


----------



## chimuelo (Feb 21, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

Developers would really do themselves well by allowing audio as a source of modulation.
Then came Silentway Suite, which allowed me to add audiorate modulations to sample Oscillators like in Solaris, and Modular.
EGs, LFOs and Portamento glides using PAT, Aft, 14bit Exp or ModWheel are able to give my samples a huge increase in realtime control.

IMHO Sample developers only need such capabilities and you'll see some impressive instruments like authethtic Solo Violins and even Saxophones/Winds.

But developers are choked by Kontakt, PLAY and VSL as it's their engines at use, and if it costs too much R & D to implement, it won't happen.

Same with someone breaking down and creating an audio Operating System.

I've noticed this trend of non innovation since wealthy redistributors took control of our economy. The NSA and defense contractors are where we see innovation, but the commoners are getting by on less and less which chokes competition and innovation.
Freedom from tyranny usually results in leaps and bounds of innovation, so in 2016 we'll get past this era of mediocrity.


----------



## AC986 (Feb 22, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



TheUnfinished @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> adriancook @ Fri Feb 21 said:
> 
> 
> > I have a Prophet 08 that I have never gotten round to using, so I will take your recommendation.
> ...



Hahaha. I was about to get the whole thing set up Matt, but the iMac I was about to use and reset everything to, turned out to be a load of crap audio interface-wise.

When that issue is resolved, I will get to use and record it I assure you. It has just been in its box since new. Crazy.

I will still get a software synth too if I can afford the one I want.


----------



## feck (Feb 22, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



Dan Mott @ Sat Feb 15 said:


> Yep. I am done. Mural was my last lib. I will not be buying anymore.
> 
> I also deleted a lot of libs off my HD.
> 
> ...


OK. So what?


----------



## Dan Mott (Feb 22, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



feck @ Sat Feb 22 said:


> Dan Mott @ Sat Feb 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Yep. I am done. Mural was my last lib. I will not be buying anymore.
> ...



So...... What do you want to know?


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Feb 22, 2014)

I think essentially Scott is asking why we should care about your decision? This is, after all, a virtual instruments forum.


----------



## Dan Mott (Feb 22, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*

Hmmm odd. I don't really remember saying anybody "should" care.

But maybe you do to some extent, due to the fact that you needed to write in here....

I wrote this as a fellow musician for others that may relate to what choices I have made. After all, I don't talk to many musicians in person so this was the first place that I wanted to share my thoughts.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Feb 22, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



Dan Mott @ Sat Feb 22 said:


> Hmmm odd. I don't really remember saying anybody "should" care.
> 
> But maybe you do to some extent, due to the fact that you needed to write in here....



Well if you start a thread about it, presumably you think someone would be interested or otherwise, why start the thread?

I am not criticizing it, I am just a little bewildered.


----------



## Dan Mott (Feb 22, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



EastWest Lurker @ Sun Feb 23 said:


> Dan Mott @ Sat Feb 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmm odd. I don't really remember saying anybody "should" care.
> ...



Yeah. I thought some may be interested. I never posted it saying everyone should care though. Wasn't my intention. If no one cared then that's ok.

And Jay. You are one of few that I'm postive wouldn't give two monkeys nipples as to what I'm doing. :D


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Feb 22, 2014)

Once again, not criticizing, just seems odd to me on this forum dedicated to virtual instruments rather than a place like Facebook. It is a little like coming to an auto enthusiast forum and saying, "I have a sports car and a SUV, no more cars for me".

Whatever.


----------



## blougui (Feb 22, 2014)

*Re: finished with sample libraries*



EastWest Lurker @ Sat Feb 22 said:


> Dan Mott @ Sat Feb 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmm odd. I don't really remember saying anybody "should" care.
> ...



This has been an interesting thread so far. Dan has bought and used quite some libs and now revert to a few of them whiel shifting his way to making music - a personal quest ones might say. 
Though the title might sound a bit provocative,reactions & answers were informative, especially in a time when ones can be overwhelmed by the offer - and temptations - we, musicians,have to deal with. Consumerism etc. It's just a voice - Dan's one - amongst others, and not one from someone who relies exclusively on commercial contractors. I don't see what's wrong here and the "so what?" is a tad rude when written after 3 pages of posts (so it did raised interest, Jay, to some forum users).
Being new on theses forums I sometimes find it pleasant that it's not only tech oriented.
Yes, it's a bit personal, but in fact, and as far as i'm concerned, I'd rather read these threads than "of, the hell with this dev who has'nt answered my queries in 24 hours".
- Erik


----------



## Dan Mott (Feb 22, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Feb 23 said:


> Once again, not criticizing, just seems odd to me on this forum dedicated to virtual instruments rather than a place like Facebook. It is a little like coming to an auto enthusiast forum and saying, "I have a sports car and a SUV, no more cars for me".
> 
> Whatever.



This thread is about sample libs........... using what you have. Stop buying what you don't need. Making your own samples.


Now I am bewildered.


----------



## aaronnt1 (Feb 22, 2014)

Yeah, totally valid discussion I think and lots of people have engaged with it so far, so what's the problem? If not VI control, where else with a high concentration of vi composers?


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Feb 22, 2014)

Well maybe the Sample Talk sub forum is not the proper one for "personal quests."

Anyway, like I said, not a big deal, I was only commenting on Dan's question as to what Scott mean when he said "so what?" because that was my reaction as well.


----------



## Stephen Rees (Feb 22, 2014)

Been an interesting and insightful thread from my point of view Dan. Thanks for posting it.


----------



## blougui (Feb 22, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Feb 22 said:


> Well maybe the Sample Talk sub forum is not the proper one for "personal quests."
> 
> Anyway, like I said, not a big deal, I was only commenting on Dan's question as to what Scott mean when he said "so what?" because that was my reaction as well.



Yes, you're probably right, if I may say so. I guess sample talk is just the most read/browsed forum with the commercial announcements one.

- Erik


----------



## Guy Rowland (Feb 22, 2014)

I think I sorta know where Jay's coming from (if it was a little clumsily worded). I do occasionally sense that there's a great aspiration by some to not use any VIs at all - and I have no problem with that all, but it just seems slightly odd here at VI-Control, where the whole point is to discuss VIs. I think. But Dan's explained well where he's coming from here, which is more about selectively making use of the best tools he has rather than eternally chasing the new, and fair dos. Just as sometimes I can get the impression from some that VIs are "bad", there's this equal and opposite pressure sometimes that if you don't jump up and immediately buy Library X made by Developer Y who have broken every believable artistic, technical and ethical barrier in sampledom, you don't have good ears and are committing career suicide.

I'm guessing for most of of us, it's a constant battle between finding great new tools that help us do our job better and inspire us, and spending the time with what we have to really get to use them properly and be creative with them. If feels very boring of me to say "it's all about balance", but yawwwwn it probably is.


----------



## chimuelo (Feb 22, 2014)

After reading about so many people suffering from 3DPS (3rd Party Developers Syndrome) and getting over it without medication and psyhicatric treatment, this is a thread that has valid points.
CIA Hitmen buy mutiple copies of Catcher In The Rye, and it seems we are stricken by buying pictures of the same instrument as is if stricken by hypnosis.
Ever since we started downloading large instrument using IDM and other rapid technologies, the affliction rates are in decline.
I remember with Gigastudio and Kontakt I had 12-13 pictures of Pianos under my bed and on my shelf, and even when a new one came out, I had to find it and buy it.
They all pretty much sounded the same and none of them even had a functioning sustenuto pedal layer as that modern technology has only recently been discovered by PianoTeq, then Orange Tree. So having these 2 instruments and no pictures on the case allowed me to throw the others away, and within a year I was over the addictive process and haven't bought a Piano since.
I will be applying this new strategy to help me fight this disease and thank developers for giving us downloads now, as those pictures of real effects, instruments and mixers were the trigger in my case.

Now I am hypnotized my Modular patches with dozens of connections and fake wires hanging all over the place.
I actually use a picture of a patch on a large HDTV to make the audience think I am a smart guy.
Learned that trick by seeing Tangerine Dream play here years back and they had large LCD screens with their GUIs facing the audience showing the Creamware DSP synths.
The audience felt treated to an expensive scientific experiment with long haired scientists in white coats, (similar to the Roland V Piano video that fooled hundreds) playing exotic synth sounds.

But I see this thread as a support group for those of us getting through the financial effects of this deadly disease, known in Medical Circles as 3rd Party Developers Syndrome.
Also good to know it's a pre exisiting condition covered under the ACA act, so don't forget to sign up, as you never know when it could strike again.


----------



## gpax (Feb 22, 2014)

chimuelo @ Sat Feb 22 said:


> After reading about so many people suffering from 3DPS (3rd Party Developers Syndrome) and getting over it without medication and psyhicatric treatment, this is a thread that has valid points.
> CIA Hitmen buy mutiple copies of Catcher In The Rye, and it seems we are stricken by buying pictures of the same instrument as is if stricken by hypnosis.
> Ever since we started downloading large instrument using IDM and other rapid technologies, the affliction rates are in decline.
> I remember with Gigastudio and Kontakt I had 12-13 pictures of Pianos under my bed and on my shelf, and even when a new one came out, I had to find it and buy it.
> ...


You completely lost me in the last part of your post, as well as the image you felt was necessary to make your point.


----------



## AC986 (Feb 22, 2014)

gpax @ Sat Feb 22 said:


> You completely lost me in the last part of your post, as well as the image you felt was necessary to make your point.



You get used to it. And in time learn to love it. :lol:

And think yourself lucky he didn't mention re-distributors either.


----------



## Dan Mott (Feb 22, 2014)

I also understand where Jay was coming from and yes..... I could say how this thread gave off a negative energy towards libraries. It also may seem like it was a personal update. I suppose it was a personal update, but for some reason I wanted to share it here because it has a lot to do with sample libs and I thought people here would relate to my situation, perhaps creating a discussion. I am pretty happy with what has been discussed and thanks for those who appreciate the thread.

I think the new title is perhaps more appropriate. I also worded the original post a little differently.

Sample libs aren't bad. Not a vibe I want. I love what some companies are doing and dislike some companies too, like most.


----------



## germancomponist (Feb 22, 2014)

When a new library comes on the market that sounds better than what I have, then I'll buy this. I am always after a better "sound".

Just only have a look to the new Spitfire libs!


----------



## kitekrazy (Feb 23, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Feb 22 said:


> Once again, not criticizing, just seems odd to me on this forum dedicated to virtual instruments rather than a place like Facebook. It is a little like coming to an auto enthusiast forum and saying, "I have a sports car and a SUV, no more cars for me".
> 
> Whatever.



I start to worry this site will under go more censorship if it hasn't already. Then people will go elsewhere. Where have I seen that before?


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 23, 2014)

That is just not going to happen. Sorry.


----------



## Sid Francis (Feb 23, 2014)

A bit exagerated, Kitekrazy... I think such a discussion belongs exactly here and I enjoy it. If we don´t argue about philosophical question every day and in every thread that seems okay... :wink:


----------



## gpax (Feb 23, 2014)

Sid Francis @ Sun Feb 23 said:


> A bit exagerated, Kitekrazy... I think such a discussion belongs exactly here and I enjoy it. If we don´t argue about philosophical question every day and in every thread that seems okay... :wink:


In the short time I’ve been here, I’ve seen a lot of passionate voices decrying censorship, but no tangible examples. At least none that I could discern. In fact, this is the most leniently moderated forum I’ve ever belonged to. If anything, comments lean more toward being VI UnControl. (VI Out of Control. VI Lost Control. I could go on…) LOL. I’m sure I’m not the first to think up those. 

But seriously, I do understand how experiences of past forums continue to influence and inform. I too have had those experiences that leave me a bit jittery at times. I did not, however, read any comments in this thread that leaned toward advocating censorship. 

And on the main topic, Kudos to Dan for sensing what he felt was best, and making adjustments he felt were needed. I certainly find it a more constructive read.


----------



## muziksculp (Feb 23, 2014)

Hi,

A little tip/advice. 

Don't lock your self into a 100% sample based production, if you play an acoustic instrument/s, or have access to soloist/s. This will add so much more life, realism, expressiveness, and character to your sample based production.

I find it very rewarding to add a real acoustic instrument/s performance to a sample based production, and it is a lot of fun, and liberating as well. 

So, If you play any acoustic instrument/s (i.e. Flute, Oboe, Violin, Cello, Trumpet, ...etc.) you can elevate the realism, and expressiveness of your sample based production to a much higher level. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## kitekrazy (Feb 23, 2014)

Sid Francis @ Sun Feb 23 said:


> A bit exagerated, Kitekrazy...* I think such a discussion belongs exactly here and I enjoy it.* If we don´t argue about philosophical question every day and in every thread that seems okay... :wink:



Me too. The same thing happens not only with libraries but soft synths and DAWs. Then it can get worse with freeware. I use to download and install every piece of freeware.


----------



## blougui (Feb 24, 2014)

Much better thread title Dan


- Erik


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Feb 24, 2014)

muziksculp @ Sun Feb 23 said:


> Hi,
> 
> A little tip/advice.
> 
> ...



This is good advice. I am amazed how adding sometimes even 1 or 2 real players, makes a sample based composition come alive.

And Dan, yes this title is much better.


----------



## pangolin (Feb 24, 2014)

First of all, I always BUY the software I use - it's like buying hardware. 

You spend $500 or so on something and you look at it when you take it home and think "oh damn. I better learn everything I can about this box, because if it's not an investment, it's a distraction".

Second - I'm a firm believer in making do with what you have. I've used Renoise to write music for years - it's a tracker, it's weird, and most people don't want to understand it. I love it, and I've made amazing things with just samples - most of which i've either made myself or recorded and processed myself.

Limitation breeds creativity.


----------



## muziksculp (Feb 24, 2014)

pangolin @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> Limitation breeds creativity.



And ... The opposite can be very true :lol:


----------



## stargazer (Feb 24, 2014)

muziksculp @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> pangolin @ Mon Feb 24 said:
> 
> 
> > Limitation breeds creativity.
> ...



Creativity breeds limitation? :wink:


----------



## ProtectedRights (Feb 24, 2014)

Yeah +1 to the OP.

I am disappointed with a lot of libraries, they all suffer from minor or major shortcomings. I wish I could spend all the money that I spent in total for one great product instead of tens of mediocre products. 
Yes, and even Spitfire is mediocre for me, because it suffers a lot from out of tune and out of beat faults. Performance is another issue. Artificial sounding volume fades with baked in reverb yet another issue. I think we witness the evolution of sampling from the beginning. I would love to skip 10 years and jump in when there are really perfect products


----------



## blougui (Feb 24, 2014)

ProtectedRights @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> Yeah +1 to the OP.
> 
> I am disappointed with a lot of libraries, they all suffer from minor or major shortcomings. I wish I could spend all the money that I spent in total for one great product instead of tens of mediocre products.
> Yes, and even Spitfire is mediocre for me, because it suffers a lot from out of tune and out of beat faults. Performance is another issue. Artificial sounding volume fades with baked in reverb yet another issue. I think we witness the evolution of sampling from the beginning. I would love to skip 10 years and jump in when there are really perfect products


Out of topic there but as you mention it : I was surprised with Mural not to be able to play it with my go-to piano lib wich is Black Old Grand for Acoustic samples : out of pitch - and I'm not the "perfect hear guy", really I am not. I have to try it with other tonal libs but it's a thing I've never experienced before with EWQL SO, though I much prefer the detailed sound and true legato from Mural. So that won't keep me from buying some other tools.

I was listening to old compositions mostly done with EWQL libs, even Play ones and was surprised in a pleasant way of how they sound compared to libs I've bought since that are truly more convenient, easy to use since they are Kontakt scripted. But damn, they sound good (MOR, Râ, Gypsi violin...)


----------



## muziksculp (Feb 25, 2014)

stargazer @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> muziksculp @ Mon Feb 24 said:
> 
> 
> > pangolin @ Mon Feb 24 said:
> ...



No, that's not the opposite. That's the Reverse Order :mrgreen: 

See... Now you are getting creative with a 'Few' words


----------



## kitekrazy (Jun 27, 2014)

I thought the opening post was appropriate to read again since everything goes on sale in the Summer.

Yesterday and today Waves has a $50 voucher.
NI has 50%. 
Then there will be a 4th of July sale. 

Bill Me Later - makes things possible short term.

For those who do this stuff as a hobby is there a such thing as contentment. I guess that would happen if you are homeless but still carry a laptop. 

I think most hobbies are like this. There's users on Steam who have backlog of 200 games never played.


----------



## alextone (Jun 27, 2014)

Ironically, after working with Sonic Implants Complete symphonic collection (my core sample libs), Symphony of Voices, and Kirk Hunter's solo strings, for a number of years, i also bought Mural 1 recently, mainly for the sound. 
(I recently upgraded to Kontakt 5, and the Factory lib has some reasonable instruments i've been working with, so that one too, to be accurate)

When Mural 1 has all its updates, and mixes, etc, i'll review the situation from there. 
If it falls too short for my use after i've spent quite some time learning to use it (which is reasonable, as 5 minutes is not nearly long enough before commenting about some perceived flaw or inadequacy in design), then it's likely to be the last for quite some time, if ever.


I understand Dan's point, and share it to a great degree. Just because a lib may not be the latest and greatest shiny toy, doesn't preclude it from being great to use and write with, and importantly, to use as a yardstick against which new libs may be considered, or not.

As always, imho only, and i also add live instruments to a piece where i can, for a more human sound.


Alex.


----------



## Michael K. Bain (Jun 27, 2014)

Dan, I know exactly how you feel, and I don't even have as much stuff as most of you guys do. I recently bought the crossgrade to the full Kontak, I seriously entertained the thought of selling all my VSL special edition volumes and just using Miroslav, WIVI and the Kontakt Orchestral instruments. But once I started messing around with the Kontakt Orchestra, I realized how little round-robin seems to be in it, and how important good varied round-robin has become to my ears. So, I won't sell, but I will stick with what I have.


----------



## dinerdog (Jun 27, 2014)




----------

