# Has anyone ever had UPS issues (causing BSOD in windows machines)?



## Rob Elliott (Feb 24, 2020)

I am trying to track down the issue and my PC maker suggested I bypass the UPS on my Main (I also have 3 slaves). I get random rebooting BSOD on the main (and I even have had that on a couple of the slaves in the last month).

I have had this UPS in service for the last 8 years. Do these things fail that soon? I have the APC Pro 1500 (and one back-up battery).


I really only have that when my electrical utility flips the power on/off (1-2 sec) every great once and a while (summer might happen a bit more). I just want enough time to shut down everything nicely ( 5 mins max of battery is only needed.)


Thanks for you input and if you think I own 'crap - lots of history of issues' - please recommend the 'gold standard' for my 5 mins of battery life requirement.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Feb 24, 2020)

I know that UPS have a very limited life (at least the battery, not sure about the rest) but I'm not sure how related that is to how often it gets triggered. Mine goes off maybe 3 times a year so I'm not sure how long I should expect it to last (at least the battery). I've had it for probably 5 years without any issues. There's another studio I know of, on the other hand, which has at least 5 dead ones and seem to go through one every year or so. Not sure if it's just the battery that needs to be replaced. They just buy a new one when one gives out.

If you're getting BSODs then it sounds like it shouldn't be a UPS issue. If it was a UPS issue then you would just power off. The power would have to be really messed up in order for you to get a BSOD before powering off.


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## Rob Elliott (Feb 24, 2020)

Good points but what made us think of this was checking in 'event viewer' under logs - it shows POST automatic reboot (window screen goes BLUE with a :( face and says windows is gathering information... - THEN reboots normally) - the error message - CRITICAL --- Power-Kernal…...

??


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## Rob Elliott (Feb 24, 2020)

I also have those PC's plugged into a power strip surge protector - which is then plugged into the APC UPC which is plugged into the wall (the surge protector is not fancy but not cheap either.) I wouldn't think those things would go bad (5 years old).


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## hawpri (Feb 24, 2020)

Have you made any changes to your system(s) lately, like maybe a RAM upgrade? Does the BSoD display a QR code? If you can get a picture of it that would help. You can also get a lot of information from Event Viewer if you haven't been able to get a picture of the BSoD while it briefly displays before the reboot. 

The POST (power on self test) automatic reboot in Event Viewer is probably only what happened only after the problem occurred, I don't think it is revealing symptoms or information about the problem itself, though there may be other info available in Event Viewer that would help.

From what I've learned (not from real experience, only from studying) is that surge protectors can go bad after protecting a device from a single incident. They're cheap and do their job but apparently there's no guarantee one will offer the same level of protection for even a second incident.

I think Gerhard is right about how your system would suddenly power off if the underlying issue was power-related.


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## Rob Elliott (Feb 24, 2020)

hawpri said:


> Have you made any changes to your system(s) lately, like maybe a RAM upgrade? Does the BSoD display a QR code? If you can get a picture of it that would help. You can also get a lot of information from Event Viewer if you haven't been able to get a picture of the BSoD while it briefly displays before the reboot.
> 
> The POST (power on self test) automatic reboot in Event Viewer is probably only what happened only after the problem occurred, I don't think it is revealing symptoms or information about the problem itself, though there may be other info available in Event Viewer that would help.
> 
> ...




No changes to my system. I think there is a QR code. I think that is only up there for about 3-5 secs but if I can grab my phone camera quick for sure I'll take a pic (what would I do with the pic on my camera phone if I can capture?)

Yep on the power-kernel thingy (I just noticed online it just shows I had an unplanned reboot). Surge protector power strips are cheap enough. Can you (or anyone)recommend one on amazon and I'll order today (I'll probably need 8-10 inputs - or two of them.)

Thanks a ton for the input guys. Frustrating and really kills production. :(


EDIT: I have a QR code reader on my android - I'll leave it open and 'scan' the QR on next reboot.


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## Rob Elliott (Feb 24, 2020)

Is there a way to tell if this PC power supply is bad (PC is only 7 months new.) I double checked all connections. All secure and in place.


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## hawpri (Feb 24, 2020)

The QR code should lead you to some relevant information. I don't mean to suggest that it'll help you fix it, but that it might bring up a key word here or there that will narrow down your search.

I think a power strip and surge protector are terms used interchangeably but that they're actually different products. Just a thought while you shop around.

You could test the power supply with a https://www.amazon.com/AstroAI-Digital-Multimeter-Voltage-Tester/dp/B01ISAMUA6/ref=sxin_4_osp99-472fa0d1_cov?ascsubtag=472fa0d1-f1fc-488f-9aed-81c2e93b7bae&creativeASIN=B01ISAMUA6&cv_ct_cx=multimeter&cv_ct_id=amzn1.osp.472fa0d1-f1fc-488f-9aed-81c2e93b7bae&cv_ct_pg=search&cv_ct_wn=osp-search&keywords=multimeter&linkCode=oas&pd_rd_i=B01ISAMUA6&pd_rd_r=08fed2e6-5e14-4681-be70-06258f4659d8&pd_rd_w=nM7Ah&pd_rd_wg=GmRUV&pf_rd_p=62c00474-6fe0-420f-9956-a05256e04b43&pf_rd_r=3T13283YZC5JZN8DFTGE&qid=1582578649&tag=gearpublish-20 (multimeter). There are tutorials on YouTube for that but before you get to pulling parts out of your computer I think you'd want to run through some other, less specific troubleshooting measures first. While it certainly could wind up being a power issue there is always more to check out for your whole system's health to ensure the issues are resolved before calling it good.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Feb 24, 2020)

If it were a power supply issue, your system would most likely either power off without a blue screen or it would have issues turning on. This doesn't seem to be the case. 

How often does this happen? I'm just wondering if it's often enough to do some proper troubleshooting. If it only happens once a month then it would be very difficult to know if you've solved the issue (or wait a month only to find that you haven't).

I'd start off by connecting it straight to the wall. If that doesn't fix the issue (I assume it won't) then I'd run a memory test and OS drive test. Those are pretty easy to do. If those don't turn up anything then you'll likely have a much more difficult time finding what's wrong.


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## Rob Elliott (Feb 24, 2020)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> If it were a power supply issue, your system would most likely either power off without a blue screen or it would have issues turning on. This doesn't seem to be the case.
> 
> How often does this happen? I'm just wondering if it's often enough to do some proper troubleshooting. If it only happens once a month then it would be very difficult to know if you've solved the issue (or wait a month only to find that you haven't).
> 
> I'd start off by connecting it straight to the wall. If that doesn't fix the issue (I assume it won't) then I'd run a memory test and OS drive test. Those are pretty easy to do. If those don't turn up anything then you'll likely have a much more difficult time finding what's wrong.




Yep - I plugged that Main PC to the wall and haven't had a BSOD reboot since (7 hours or hard work.) Hmmm. These shutdown/reboots have been happening more frequently the last couple weeks (2 today much earlier - before plugging into wall this morning).

I am wondering, but I have all four computers plugged into a nice power strip/surge protector that is THEN plugged into the APC unit. I wonder if my taking the main offline and plugged into the wall (separate circuit) took the 'load' off the APC or power strip and all is playing ok now.


If that is the case - perhaps two SEPERATE APC's - 2 PC's on each would be a better way to go??


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 24, 2020)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> I know that UPS have a very limited life (at least the battery, not sure about the rest)



You can usually replace the battery.

But they don't all have a limited life. I've had the same one in my UPS for 86.3 years.

Okay, maybe only 15.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 24, 2020)

Rob Elliott said:


> I am wondering, but I have all four computers plugged into a nice power strip/surge protector that is THEN plugged into the APC unit.



As far as I know, plugging a surge protected strip into the UPS isn't *dangerous* - unlike daisy-chaining surge protectors - but it's not necessary.

Are you exceeding the current capacity of your UPS? That could be the problem. Add up the amps, because four computers is a lot.


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## hawpri (Feb 24, 2020)

Rob Elliott said:


> Is there a way to tell if this PC power supply is bad (PC is only 7 months new.) I double checked all connections. All secure and in place.


Assuming Windows is up to date and you have malware protection, does anything in Device Manager have an exclamation point next to it? If not, have you checked for device driver updates for every device? It takes forever to go one-by-one but could do a lot of good and will rule out driver problems. I mention this because an old coworker ran into issues with a Dell computer when the USB driver caused BSoD's. I doubt you're running that particular computer model but the idea is the same.

Is all of your RAM within the individual computers identical? I don't know anything about main/satellite rigs or VE Pro - that's beyond my level - but I know that _similar_ RAM on the same system can cause problems.

If everything is good/updated in Device Manager but your BSoD's continue, you may want to move on to some other steps before resorting to calling someone. Gerhard mentioned some diagnostics you can run. You can try to run tests on your drive, OS, memory, GPU, CPU, and it wouldn't hurt to check out how hot it runs. Whatever the case is in the end I hope you have current backups and that you have some luck in getting it resolved quickly.


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## Rob Elliott (Feb 25, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> As far as I know, plugging a surge protected strip into the UPS isn't *dangerous* - unlike daisy-chaining surge protectors - but it's not necessary.
> 
> Are you exceeding the current capacity of your UPS? That could be the problem. Add up the amps, because four computers is a lot.


 Yea - this APC pro 1500 has been operating great for 8 years. Looks like amps drawn are good.


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## Rob Elliott (Feb 25, 2020)

hawpri said:


> Assuming Windows is up to date and you have malware protection, does anything in Device Manager have an exclamation point next to it? If not, have you checked for device driver updates for every device? It takes forever to go one-by-one but could do a lot of good and will rule out driver problems. I mention this because an old coworker ran into issues with a Dell computer when the USB driver caused BSoD's. I doubt you're running that particular computer model but the idea is the same.
> 
> Is all of your RAM within the individual computers identical? I don't know anything about main/satellite rigs or VE Pro - that's beyond my level - but I know that _similar_ RAM on the same system can cause problems.
> 
> If everything is good/updated in Device Manager but your BSoD's continue, you may want to move on to some other steps before resorting to calling someone. Gerhard mentioned some diagnostics you can run. You can try to run tests on your drive, OS, memory, GPU, CPU, and it wouldn't hurt to check out how hot it runs. Whatever the case is in the end I hope you have current backups and that you have some luck in getting it resolved quickly.



I checked and no exclamation points next to anything. I have made sure the drivers are up-to-date on the nvidia, RME sound card, and NIC. All looks good there but good idea to go through everything in the device mgr to be certain. W10 has all the latest updates. All Ram is matched. My temps are CPU - idle about 40C and working hard about 50C - MB is about 37-39C.

edit: double checked malware protection. Scan produced 0 Threats.


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## wst3 (Feb 25, 2020)

Rob Elliott said:


> I also have those PC's plugged into a power strip surge protector - which is then plugged into the APC UPC which is plugged into the wall (the surge protector is not fancy but not cheap either.) I wouldn't think those things would go bad (5 years old).


Actually, most surge suppressors do go bad, how long it takes to fail is a function of how many surges they have to stop.

Most surge suppressors use a Metal Oxide Varistor (MOV) from hot to ground and a second one from neutral to ground (speaking for US power). When a surge is sensed they short to ground for a brief time, snuffing the surge. The problem is they will eventually fail, and when they fail they do so in an open state, so they can no longer protect your devices. Equally problematic, all that energy is getting dumped into the ground conductor, which can "contaminate" the ground, and that can cause problems too.

There is a small subset of surge suppressors that use some form of Series Mode suppression, which is exactly what it sounds like, there is an element that absorbs the extra energy instead of dumping it to ground. These elements will probably fail as well, but it will take much (MUCH) longer, and when they do you will know.

The original series mode suppressor was invented by SurgeX, and they are still creating new (and better?) devices. Their patent did run out, so there are other companies doing the same thing, Middle Atlantic is one of them.

As you might guess, a series mode device is a LOT more expensive, but for my gear it is an expense I can easily justify. I think everyone should, but what do I know???


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 25, 2020)

hawpri said:


> does anything in Device Manager have an exclamation point next to it?



You guys use software for your UPSes?

I've never understood the point. If I'm away from my machines, they're asleep and I don't care if the power goes out; if I'm working, I shut them down manually.


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## vitocorleone123 (Feb 25, 2020)

Yes, power can cause BSOD. Unlikely but possible - undervolting etc. I’d check your UPS under load with a tool. If that checks out, I’d consider your PSU - you might even start there. Those are more likely to go than a UPS. I had a PSU that seemed to work but I was getting BSODs until I replaced it.

it’s also possible there’s a wiring issue or something else going on.


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## Rob Elliott (Feb 26, 2020)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Yes, power can cause BSOD. Unlikely but possible - undervolting etc. I’d check your UPS under load with a tool. If that checks out, I’d consider your PSU - you might even start there. Those are more likely to go than a UPS. I had a PSU that seemed to work but I was getting BSODs until I replaced it.
> 
> it’s also possible there’s a wiring issue or something else going on.




I was thinking the PSU might be the culprit. Dang - this thing is only months old. :( How can I tell if the PSU has issues? (is there a test in windows)?


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## vitocorleone123 (Feb 26, 2020)

Unfortunately, there’s no easy way as far as I know. You can put your system under heavy load with Prime95 and see what happens, but usually it’s a process of elimination, costing time and money.
Honestly, I suggest replacing the UPS first because even if it wasn’t the problem you’ll have a nice new one (make sure the battery mode produced a clean sine wave not stepped power). And if that doesn’t solve it, replace the PSU with one reviewed to produce very stable voltage under load.

and if that doesn’t work... it gets really “fun”.


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## Rob Elliott (Feb 26, 2020)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Unfortunately, there’s no easy way as far as I know. You can put your system under heavy load with Prime95 and see what happens, but usually it’s a process of elimination, costing time and money.
> Honestly, I suggest replacing the UPS first because even if it wasn’t the problem you’ll have a nice new one (make sure the battery mode produced a clean sine wave not stepped power). And if that doesn’t solve it, replace the PSU with one reviewed to produce very stable voltage under load.
> 
> and if that doesn’t work... it gets really “fun”.




Good plan. APC pro 1500 still a good option for UPS? I have had mine for 8+ years with no issues.


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## Rob Elliott (Feb 26, 2020)

Best Advisor says this UPS is best. Many reviews on Amazon (5 times more than APC)



It can handle all 4 computers but I'll get two and plug 2 into each.  (I have a switch, router and NAS in the closet as well/)


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## vitocorleone123 (Feb 26, 2020)

I have a cyberpower 1350 UPS that my one computer plus a bunch of other stuff (including my OB-6 and SE-02 synths) are plugged into. Works great - never any issues. Like it better than any APC I've had.
However, if your computers are for your music and your music is your business, I'd check the business line versions of the brands to see what the differences are, other than price (surely you get something more for more money?).


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## Rob Elliott (Feb 26, 2020)

vitocorleone123 said:


> I have a cyberpower 1350 UPS that my one computer plus a bunch of other stuff (including my OB-6 and SE-02 synths) are plugged into. Works great - never any issues. Like it better than any APC I've had.
> However, if your computers are for your music and your music is your business, I'd check the business line versions of the brands to see what the differences are, other than price (surely you get something more for more money?).



Yea their business class options are 2-3 times the price. Anyone else have these cyberpower business class? Worth it? Why?


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## Rob Elliott (Feb 26, 2020)

Here is the next model up from the consumer level. 100 more watts difference is all? $50 more not bad but can't see that there is anything 'else' added.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 26, 2020)

vitocorleone123 said:


> I have a cyberpower 1350 UPS



I don't know what number I have, but mine is Cyberpower too. It's probably 15 years old.


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## Rob Elliott (Feb 26, 2020)

Cool. Even if one was worried about battery life (if not up to spec could the voltage dip just enough to cause issues) - as the batteries are only $30 - freak, replace them every 3-4 years just for grins and piece of mind. I think I'll pull the trigger on this one.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 26, 2020)

Okay, I had to look. My Cyberpower UPS 1500 has four outlets that are battery-backed + surge-protected and four that are only surge-protected. I have the model without any displays, which is fine since it's in my garage and I haven't looked at it for years; I just hear it beeping every couple of years when the power browns out or goes out, indicating it's running off the batteries.

But this is interesting. Battery mode kicks in when the incoming voltage drops. I wasn't sure whether the power went through the battery all the time, which would wear out the battery a lot sooner.


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