# Musings on keyboard needs



## willie45 (Jun 25, 2020)

Hi 

In general, I didn’t get on with NI KK S61 . The action was all right but I found the black keys were heavier to operate than the white which was very off-putting . Also I found the controls not to my taste. I didn’t enjoy dialling knobs around to scroll and mainly I just used Komplete or Kontakt on my computer. The thing I miss is the lights and I feel these would be useful on a 88 keyed controller for highlighting key switches and instrument ranges.

Anyway the shop has agreed to an exchange for me. I have a digital piano I can connect to Logic. It has no MIDI controls but I have a Korg Nanocontrol Studio 2 so it's a workaround. The piano, of course, has 88 keys and, to me, has a nice action ( Roland PHA 4 Concert ) I really need to put up a shelf or something to accommodate my Mac mini and screen near the piano, but that’s not impossible to do.

Anyway I am in two minds as to my exchange and I can either:

1 Accept I will never really like playing MIDI controllers and use one for VI instruments and MIDI note entry, while using my piano for more piano - type stuff. I'm not much of a pianist but can play a bit.

2. Keep trying to get a MIDI controller with a decent action, which I suspect will be both expensive and ultimately frustrating, though I might find something I can use with pleasure.

If I go with option 2 then I’m drawn to the Roland A88mk2, or the Studiologic SL88 Grand. These are in budget but aren’t the cheapest option and as I have the piano already I’m reluctant to spend. I would happily buy them if I thought they would suit me best though. The NI S88 was an outside bet but I keep reading so many negatives opinions of it and since the control issue isn’t really that big a deal to me I would rather spend my money elsewhere.

If I go with option 1 then I have two main choices: 

a) A full - size 88-key keyboard which would be handy for orchestral stuff and allow for key switches. I _could_ pick a hammer action and if so I’m likely to go with an M - Audio Hammer 88, or a Studiologic SL88 Studio. In this scernario I feel action is less important though and I could also consider synth or semi-weighted actions like a Keystation 88. 

b) On the other hand as I have 88 keys piano-action style covered, I might decide to go with a synth - action smaller keyboard to sit on my desk rather than a stand. If I so then I’d go with an M - Audio 49/61 or similar. I do feel it would be good to have a keyboard reserved for MIDI input at my desk though, and 49 would be too small so it would most likely be a 61. Then I'm' starting to consider the 88 key again.

Anyway these are my thoughts. They're a bit all over the place, as I’m quite new to this so I’d appreciate a critique of my musings and some constructive guidance.

Thank you all kindly.


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## JohnG (Jun 25, 2020)

I think I'd go with option b, given your desire for a very high quality keybed. Especially if you've already identified one you like, why keep looking? Besides, if you have the 88 keys settled, you don't have to spend too much on either an outboard controller or even a separate keyboard as long as it has decent wheels and buttons and such.

I don't know if anyone has really nailed high quality in both. I like my Doepfer just fine, but the action when playing is not like my piano; if I were a highly trained pianist I think I'd find it a difficult transition, though it's lighter than a piano and therefore probably less strain during 18 hour days.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 25, 2020)

There are digital pianos with piano action that's probably better than an M-Audio controller's (I say that without having played the M-Audio keyboard, but the company is known for affordable equipment rather than boutique pieces.)

Also, I checked out a weighted Casio keyboard in Guitar Center a few months ago that impressed me a lot for I think $300 (it was on sale). It wasn't hooked up, so the MIDI response could well be lousy, but I was surprised at how good the keys felt.


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## Rory (Jun 25, 2020)

I'm in a somewhat similar position in that I'm probably going to purchase a Kawai VPC1 keyboard and I want a MIDI Controller to supplement it. Because your piano dealer is taking the Komplete Kontrol S61 that you purchased on an exchange basis, you're limited to lines that your dealer sells. With that caveat, there are quite a few options. In addition to keyboards, I've considered PreSonus's Faderport 8, Linnstrument and Roli Seaboard, as well as a number of new MPE-friendly controllers that have come onto the market, at various prices, over the last year or so. One upcoming product that's interesting, although expensive, is Expressive E's Osmose.

In my case, I've settled on the new Monogram Creative Console, reasons in this thread: https://vi-control.net/community/th...-palette-gear-its-new-midi-controllers.95025/

Of the options, I'd be careful about purchasing a Roli until there's clarity about the company's future. In any event, new Seaboard Rises aren't available from major retailers, or indeed from Roli itself. I suspect that this is related to Roli's financial problems. On the other hand, if your dealer has a Roli that he wants to offload at a healthy discount, it's worth considering.


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 25, 2020)

B is a good option. 

Due to Covid and my wife stealing half my studio space to work from home, I’ve found myself using an old digital piano as my ‘88, and an NI M32 on the desktop. The piano is to my left at a right angle to the desk. 

I’m finding I’m spending maybe 80% of my production time using the m32. The ergonomic benefits of shunting the ‘88 to one side have been pretty clear too. 

Hope it helps.


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## CT (Jun 25, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Also, I checked out a weighted Casio keyboard in Guitar Center a few months ago that impressed me a lot for I think $300 (it was on sale). It wasn't hooked up, so the MIDI response could well be lousy, but I was surprised at how good the keys felt.



I know Casio is not necessarily at the top of many luxury digital keyboard/MIDI controller lists, but the PX-5S has been a great choice for me. Trying stuff out in person, Casio and Roland were the only ones that really seemed to deliver on the action, short of a VPC1 or something.

And I was coming from an M-Audio Keystation, so I can assure you that your speculation on their feel as a brand is totally right....


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## Rory (Jun 25, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> I’ve found myself using an old digital piano as my ‘88, and an NI M32 on the desktop. The piano is to my left at a right angle to the desk.
> 
> I’m finding I’m spending maybe 80% of my production time using the m32. The ergonomic benefits of shunting the ‘88 to one side have been pretty clear too.



There's detailed discussion about the Native Instruments M32 and A25 in this current thread: https://vi-control.net/community/th...e-instruments-m32-a25-komplete-kontrol.94689/


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## willie45 (Jun 25, 2020)

Thank you for your comments. I'm finding it quite helpful to walkthrough the options and clarify them here.

The general consensus is use the Roland Piano I already have as an 88 with all the advantages of feel and size and stick a small controller on my desk. It makes sense. I'd need to do some work on the ergonomics of this but it's doable. I'm coming round to the idea that a 49 key might be the sweet spot for me in this situation in terms of deskspace and usability.

As I have the Nanoncontrol I don't need a lot of knobs and dials but I'd like full - size keys as I've found mini keys to be fiddly and a bit stiff in the past though I might have just been unlucky. This takes me to M Audio Code or Oxygen 49, NI A49, or Akai MPK Pro 249. The Code and Akai have stuff I don't need and cost more than the other two.

That leaves me with the Oxygen 49, or NI A49. I\m tempted by the NI due to use with Komplete and also it looks lots nicer BUT I'm worried about the keypad. I have used an Oxygen 49 and liked the keys on it but I didn't even like the S61 keys particularly - the black notes were too stiff - which puts me off NI. So it looks like he Oxygen 49 is the winner.

I want to like the NI A49 because the Oxygen isn't exactly small or gorgeous, and conventional opinion seems to be that the NI keybed is superior but honestly I just couldn't get on with the black notes stiffness on the S61.Also the advantages of NKS arena that clear to me so the Oxygen is looking like the best ( and cheapest) option.

Mind you I didn't play with the Oxygen long and now I'm wondering if the stiff black notes is just a thing with most keyboards due to their ( the black notes ) smaller size


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 26, 2020)

willie45 said:


> Thank you for your comments. I'm finding it quite helpful to walkthrough the options and clarify them here.
> 
> The general consensus is use the Roland Piano I already have as an 88 with all the advantages of feel and size and stick a small controller on my desk. It makes sense. I'd need to do some work on the ergonomics of this but it's doable. I'm coming round to the idea that a 49 key might be the sweet spot for me in this situation in terms of deskspace and usability.
> 
> ...


I’ve put a second Bluetooth keyboard on top of the piano for driving Logic whilst recording. I might go all the way at some point and put a second monitor there too.

It’s been quite the revelation. Due to our new family arrangement, I can’t always be in the studio to work. Often I’m recording the “piano-y” type parts in the day and come the evening, I’m finishing the track at the kitchen table with the laptop/M32.

On the black keys thing, in my experience all the cheap stuff is like that. Usually the ‘bed is supported by a single spring mechanism and the laws of physics make the black keys stiffer.

Maybe this won’t be an issue for you if you use the piano for detailed parts?


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## willie45 (Jun 26, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> I’ve put a second Bluetooth keyboard on top of the piano for driving Logic whilst recording. I might go all the way at some point and put a second monitor there too.
> 
> It’s been quite the revelation. Due to our new family arrangement, I can’t always be in the studio to work. Often I’m recording the “piano-y” type parts in the day and come the evening, I’m finishing the track at the kitchen table with the laptop/M32.
> 
> ...



Good points. I'm concluding that given my piano is available, I'll go with a cheaper keyboard and accept it for what it is. Full size keys are important to me and between the A49 and Oxygen 49 I've played the latter and got on with it, I don't care about NKS and so I'm off to order that one today. 

Thank you all. Funny how posting and discussing can clarify things so well


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## ckett (Jun 26, 2020)

A lot to figure out and have been through the same journey. There are no fantastic midi controllers with high quality controls AND a high quality synth or piano action keybed. I settled on the Korg D1 digital piano that has the RH3 keybed. I used to have the Roland A88 and prefer the Korg action a little better. Quicker, more responsive, not as heavy. For fantastic synth action you have to look at the high end workstations from Yamaha and Roland. I couldnt find any solid knob/slider controllers so I built my own. It is nice but still restricted to the resolution of midi. Midi 2.0 couldnt come fast enough!


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## willie45 (Jun 26, 2020)

Hmm. Complications. Mrs Willie is fairly confident that she would like the piano to go back to the living room and so it might be a much less attractive option for me now. Back to the drawing board.

I could be happy using a synth action keyboard for putting a lot of VI stuff, strings etc together but I do fancy having an 88 key heavier action to hand as well.

The SL88 Grand seems attractive but the reliability isn't always spoken of highly nor is the support if things go wrong. M- Audio is still a strong contender, but I also noticed someone selling an Arturia Keylab 88 ( old version ) at a good price, but I read of the action being described as "stiff" in more than once comment which is a bit off-putting? I wonder if they mean heavy and if so would it be easily resolved by adjusting the velocity's anyone any experience with these? Mind you "stiff" suggests something else?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 26, 2020)

Mike T said:


> I know Casio is not necessarily at the top of many luxury digital keyboard/MIDI controller lists, but the PX-5S has been a great choice for me. Trying stuff out in person, Casio and Roland were the only ones that really seemed to deliver on the action, short of a VPC1 or something.
> 
> And I was coming from an M-Audio Keystation, so I can assure you that your speculation on their feel as a brand is totally right....



Okay, the one I saw was CDP-S350, and I'm wrong - it was $400 on sale (I took a picture of the tag and found it on my phone). It has a hammer action.


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## SupremeFist (Jun 26, 2020)

willie45 said:


> Hmm. Complications. Mrs Willie is fairly confident that she would like the piano to go back to the living room and so it might be a much less attractive option for me now. Back to the drawing board.
> 
> I could be happy using a synth action keyboard for putting a lot of VI stuff, strings etc together but I do fancy having an 88 key heavier action to hand as well.
> 
> The SL88 Grand seems attractive but the reliability isn't always spoken of highly nor is the support if things go wrong. M- Audio is still a strong contender, but I also noticed someone selling an Arturia Keylab 88 ( old version ) at a good price, but I read of the action being described as "stiff" in more than once comment which is a bit off-putting? I wonder if they mean heavy and if so would it be easily resolved by adjusting the velocity's anyone any experience with these? Mind you "stiff" suggests something else?


If you like the action of your Roland piano then I would heartily recommend the Roland FP10 (PHA-4 standard) as pretty much the most compact 88-note fully weighted controller available with the best action short of a grand or more. (You will need something else for knobs and so forth: I use an m32.)


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## mickeyl (Jun 26, 2020)

In my opinion, Roland's keybeds are best of the league. I never played something that translated my playing so well into MIDI than my V-Piano (using PHA III).


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## willie45 (Jun 26, 2020)

YEs I'm a fan of my Roiand. It is an HP504 and isn't portable at all. It's designed to look like a piece of furniture as traditional pianos were and we bought it to go in the living room. I purloined it and took it into my office and I'm using it there at the moment. It might well have to go back to the living room though and it has also been a bit of a faff getting it connected to my computer.


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## willie45 (Jun 26, 2020)

Oops posted before I finished. Anyway, it has PHA 4 Concert action and I love it. I might be able to keep it in my office and if so I will give some thought to getting it hooked up to the computer in a more permanent and ergonomic way. If I can, that will be my best option, but it will require a bit of negotiation so .....


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## mickeyl (Jun 27, 2020)

I‘d love to build a PHA4 keyboard right into my desk, alas, no one sells these keybeds without case. And taking it out of a device is probably too much DIY for me.


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## willie45 (Jun 27, 2020)

I'm now wondering if I should look at stage pianos instead. They have speakers and stuff I don't want but the action I likely to be good and I'm wondering if the Roland FP10 or Kawai ES110 might be an option for me. The Kawai doesn't have USB MIDI out socket so I'd need to use a Pin Plug to USB cable which is a minor irritation and Im assuming it wouldn't have any real disadvantage.

What say you?


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## Tronam (Jul 5, 2020)

One of my biggest gripes with most of the digital pianos is their vertical thickness. It doesn't seem like this should be a big deal, but with most around 6" in order for me to get my knees underneath with enough leg room to comfortably use the sustain pedal I need to raise the keyboard annoyingly high. With both of my real pianos the keybed is about 4" thick, which is perfect. Maybe I should just be mad at my long leg genetics. It's a shame because I love their minimalist design that invests most of the engineering budget into the keyboard action and frees up the top panel for a typing keyboard, mouse or any other MIDI controller surface.


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## TomislavEP (Jul 5, 2020)

My personal choices of keyboard controllers for composition and studio work for many years now are Studiologic SL-990 Pro and M-AUDIO Axiom 49.

1) SL-990 Pro. Since the piano is my primary instrument, I just can't work without a fully weighted 88 keys controller. I have a preference for Fatar keybed; probably also because of my long-time experience of using Kurzweil keyboards and stage pianos for live work. Actually I'm finding the action on SL-990 quite heavier than on most of the uprights and grands I had the pleasure of using and performing on, but it mostly matches my playing style nicely.

2) Axiom 49. I'm using this for everything else, from virtual orchestration, synths, etc. It has all the types of controllers I could possibly want, even the aftertouch. I really have only two gripes about it. First, it would be nice to have the sliders placed on the left rather in the middle of the front panel. BTW, this is corrected in the newer generation of the Axiom, but it isn't available in stores any longer, at least not in my parts. The second is that I sometimes miss more keyboard real-estate that 61 keys version would provide. On the other hand, the 49 keys model perfectly matches my custom-made desk.


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## willie45 (Jul 5, 2020)

Well the Roland is going back downstairs as agreed and I have my room set up as I want it.

I finally bought a Kawai ES110 and I'm really pleased with it. It feels great and is light and moveable in my room. It doesn't have all the snazzy controls many dedicated MIDI controllers have but I don't miss them: I have my Nanostudio and I also have an M- Audio Oxygen day 61 with dials and faders on my desk so I'm not short of these. I can switch between the two as required. 

I have to say I really, really love the Kawai. It feels absolutely excellent and has to be the best value ( for me ) keyboard I've come across. It's great


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