# How to choose the correct instruments (Yes, Again!)



## Tale (May 11, 2021)

Hi everyone!

Just starting on the fantastic VI world and boy is this a great community, this is pure gold. As this may sound familiar I play the guitar and have always dreamed of making orchestral cinematic music but for one reason or another never gave it a final try. Until now.

A couple of months ago I bought my first midi keyboard, got my Kontakt along with Nucleus (to start with), opened Cubase and boom, what a fantastic disaster, never really thought this would be so hard.

So, fast forward and I immediately understood this is nowhere without music theory so started the youtube videos of Dr. Brellochs (fantastic) and got myself a copy of the Musician's Guide to Theory and Analysis from Clenndining and there we are, slowly but steady.

Been also trying to compose and suscribed to ComposingTips (thanks Nico!), Ann-Kathrin, Tom Hawk and a couple more (tried some Mike Verta,etc).

So, after this not so short story I've arrived to a place of confusion. 

I have my melody, my harmony and my counter melody. Let's say they are all pretty simple but are "done" correctly in terms of music theory. Piano sketch sounds pretty good, etc.

BUT, I'm struggling so much to choose the right instruments for everything..Yes I know I want some epic melody so I'll give that to a French Horn, but then what? When I choose the harmony to be a string ensemble it doesn't really sound that nice. Or speak of giving the Counter melody to a Choir, FGS what instrument sounds good without destroying the choir???? I know it may be a mixing problem and a good midi performance as well (hello mod wheel my eternal enemy), but I really feel that the orchestration part, the way to blend, to texture, to know what to choose in order to get background, midground, etc to sound right is out of my hand.

So, how can I approach this? Transcribe scores? Another textbook? Courses that are really good? VI-Control I need your help, how did you all manage to advance in this stage? I feel there are tons of ways to get around music theory but orchestration, I can't find that much (and obviously the advice of do what sounds good to your ear hasn't worked at all...)

BTW bought the Orchestration Recipes, haven't digged to them on depth but they seem a little what I need, problem is not all the examples provided are of my taste.

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR HELP


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## doctoremmet (May 11, 2021)

1. Do not overthink
2. Try a lot of different ideas, find out what works for you
3. Rinse and repeat
4. Get experienced
5. Use your ears
6. At this point, skip courses, learn the VIs you have and learn them good
7. Get yourself a deck of Oblique Strategies
8. Do not overthink
9. Honour thy errors as hidden intentions
10. Do not overthink - instead record record record erase record some more


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## Scalms (May 11, 2021)

Everything doctoremmet says plus, 

do not overthink. 

seriuosly though he is right. Just go write some music. First add a low cello chord transition. Then add some violas and some violin melody. Then add some washed out reverbs piano, maybe some flutes, and keep layering. Maybe it will sound like a washed out mess at first, but you will start to hear the sorts of sounds that go well together to achieve your desired emotion. Then do it again and again, and I guarantee you in a year from now you will look back at your early work and frown a little, and then you will realize that just by doing it you got better.


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## bill5 (May 11, 2021)

Here's a "trick" that works for many things and has helped me at times......cheat.  What I mean is listen to what others have done and copy what they did (more or less, as a starting point at least) and see how it works for you.


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## Tale (May 12, 2021)

Hi all, many thanks for your answers!!!

Thanks Gene, I'm using Cubase so I'm going to try and export that notation graph with the piano sketch I have at the moment (melody, counter and harmony)

Thank you all for your help, as far as I understand this comes back to trying, experimenting and building your way.

It's OK I suppose, eventhough I would love if there were more strict "methods" as to say or even set of rules.

I must admit I like the structured study approach of things.


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## doctoremmet (May 12, 2021)

As much as you like to structure a process, most creative processes rely on chance, chaos, trial and error and luck to a certain extent.

The opposite is also true: as long as you do nothing, no music ever gets made


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## doctoremmet (May 12, 2021)

I do not think there is a recipe for (the creative process that leads to) good music.

There have been some fantastic examples of “DIY” initiatives by Scritti Politti (their SCRIT3 manual for indie record releases) and The Manual by The KLF. Highly recommended stuff (not for instrument choice obviously haha - but it may serve as an inspiration anyway).



http://members.iinet.net.au/%7Eithompson/klf-book-themanual.pdf
























etc... Fun stuff. 





Disclaimer: I’m an old punkrock guy hehe. Maybe I got carried away here


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## Trash Panda (May 12, 2021)

Since you have Nucleus, it should be very easy to experiment with performance patches. If you’re at all analytical like me, the exercise below can make this much easier to get your bearings until you get a feel for it.

Put the performance patch of every single instrument into its own track in your DAW. Take your melody and copy it to every track. Move each melody line up or down an octave or two until it sounds like it’s in a good range to your ears for that instrument.

Now mute every track. Unmute the first two instruments and play the track. Pick the one you like more, mute the one you like less, unmute the next track. Repeat until you’ve either gone through every track and or find a combination you like.

You’ll get a good feel for what works and what does not.

Next, pick your harmony and do the same exercise except for the tracks carrying the melody. I mean you could also use a full section more than once. Screw the rules in the VI world.


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## Tale (May 12, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Since you have Nucleus, it should be very easy to experiment with performance patches. If you’re at all analytical like me, the exercise below can make this much easier to get your bearings until you get a feel for it.
> 
> Put the performance patch of every single instrument into its own track in your DAW. Take your melody and copy it to every track. Move each melody line up or down an octave or two until it sounds like it’s in a good range to your ears for that instrument.
> 
> ...



Hey this approach looks great, this could definitely work.

I've been working like that in blocks, as to say, tried all the patches with the melody for the Brasses only, and was on my way to start Strings alone.

Thought it would work with the Brasses (tried to Horn the melody and then a brass ensembles separating the instruments with the Harmony) but the sound is still not there and obviously only with brasses I feel it's not rich enough.

And in fact here comes my issue, should I add some strings? Percussion (need to work on those a looong way), etc etc.

And so I thought that maybe there are some kind of theoretical/practical rules for this (either in a great textbook, course, etc) as to say, look trumpets work great with cellos in the background, but never try joining flutes with French Horns, etc etc but in my research at the moment everything relies on creativity, trying things, building them around, etc which is not bad either.

Many thanks for this, I'm going to start working on it.


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## purplehamster (May 13, 2021)

Hey there, some useful information here: https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Academy

Pick an instrument and check out their sound combinations and characteristics.


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## Arbee (May 13, 2021)

Mickey Baker's Complete Handbook of the Music Arranger.​This book was my bible when I started out a very long time ago. What I still love about it is that it's brief and straight to the point and, unlike so many others, it doesn't attempt to sell any particular genre or stylistic bias. I saw it available on Amazon recently.
​


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## el-bo (May 13, 2021)

One thing you might find useful is Orchestration Recipes:






Orchestration Recipes Discussion Thread


Launch sale: 40% off Get your recipes at orchestrationrecipes.com 2 hours of fully narrated videos Walkthroughs, illustrations and loads of fresh musical examples to explore, in a new, brisk, fully narrated format. Packed with orchestrated examples & ideas to try Start with the videos...




vi-control.net





I don’t own it, but many folks seem to be very happy with it.


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## Tale (May 13, 2021)

Hi all,

Great resources there, I'll check out Vienna web and check if I can find the textbook for preview.

I do own the orchestral recipes as when I saw it I knew instantly that this was kind of what I'm looking for. I need to dig in it and start working with it, my only con is that the examples it brings are not that much of my taste, sure there are some that yes but it's more of a pretty classical approach and I'm looking a bit more into cinematic modern music (which doesn't mean trailer epic stuff only at all).


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## el-bo (May 13, 2021)

Tale said:


> I do own the orchestral recipes as when I saw it I knew instantly that this was kind of what I'm looking for. I need to dig in it and start working with it, my only con is that the examples it brings are not that much of my taste, sure there are some that yes but it's more of a pretty classical approach and I'm looking a bit more into cinematic modern music (which doesn't mean trailer epic stuff only at all).


Like i said, I don't own it. So I can't really say with any certainty that the skills gained from working in OR's particular niche will translate well to other genres. But it certainly can't hurt. Practising these skills will surely have some benefit, and since you already have them


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## cet34f (May 13, 2021)

In my opinion, there are two ways: 

1. The hardcore way. Read some classics like Principles of Orchestration and start transcribing.

2. The Generation Z way. Find some orchestration video tutorials, so you can see the score and hear music at the same time while someone explaining things to you. You can see other people's analysis video of a piece, too.

*Please feel free to do both.

The question is, if you go for route 2, what tutorials are you going to take? You need to spend you money wisely, since they are often expensive.


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## Tale (May 13, 2021)

cet34f said:


> In my opinion, there are two ways:
> 
> 1. The hardcore way. Read some classics like Principles of Orchestration and start transcribing.
> 
> ...


There you go, exactly.

Courses are everything but cheap and I must admit the Classic Textbooks (or at least textbooks that are more than 40-50 years old) are quite hardcore for someone that is selftaught as me.

BTW at the moment I'm going again over the fundamentals with the Clenndining's Musician Guide for Theory and Analysis and so far so good.

I suppose that when things get tougher, that's when you need some kind of course and a more friendly explanation.

Anyway, any course you liked, youtube channels you love regarding this or something you find useful at all please let me know.

Thanks!


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## Trash Panda (May 13, 2021)

You could always look up scores of tracks you particularly like on a site like MuseScore, find one arranged for orchestra and find the parts you hear that you really dig.

Even better, practice mocking up some your favorite cues or sections. It does wonders for self education if you’re like me and reading textbooks is about as helpful and rewarding as hitting yourself in the face with a hammer.

Every composer has tropes they favor. Williams loves the rapid, bleating trumpets, runs that combine high Woodwinds and high strings, soaring French horn melodies, etc. 

The Orchestral Recipes course is also helpful, even if classical isn’t your style. I favor Hollywood and symphonic metal and it still provides valuable insights.


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## Dave Connor (May 13, 2021)

When you first start to learn a new subject, such as a foreign language, you learn how to say things such as _hello _or _good morning _- right? Music is a sort of language as well so even though you may know the basics, it’s another thing to become proficient in communicating with them.

Just as you learn the basics of one aspect of an area of knowledge you also want to learn the basics of further areas of the same subject. In music, the four-part texture is the basis of tonal writing. If you can understand that texture as found in textbooks or tutorials etc., then you could directly apply that understanding to a basic application of it as found in a Haydn symphony. If you see how he is using the strings as basic four part writing then you can see how he may be using an oboe melodically or otherwise above it. Same with the french horns.

All to say, if you study smaller orchestras with fewer instruments than modern film etc., it will be much easier to understand that more basic unit than a far more complicated one with far more moving parts. The larger orchestra is simply an expansion of the earlier one with a larger engine.

Study a six cylinder Ford before you tackle a 12 cylinder Ferrari.


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## wilifordmusic (May 13, 2021)

Just a thought, pick a couple of pieces of music you like and are familiar with.
Make very basic verbal/written notes of the instruments you hear and their function (melody, harmony or rhythm). Don't get bogged down in details. 
Instrumentation is important but don't forget the dynamic arc of what you are hearing as well. The ebb and flow of dynamics, tempo and emotion will often suggest the orchestration.

If you are trying to duplicate a real orchestra you will end up frustrated at this point of the game.

So, write a short piece of original music "in the style of".
Then try to find patches in the libraries you own and that will function in your own piece of music.
While we would all like to be able to mock-up the music of the greats (insert your favorite composer here) the goal is to create the musical function without duplicating that which has come before.

This is how you create an original voice in the world and learn to work with the tools you have.

Lather, rinse and repeat.

Then try a transcription or a score you have access to.

You can't always use the exact instrumentation or player numbers and get the sound you hear when dealing with virtual libraries. Find out what your libraries do well and then figure out what is missing.

Then wait for the summer sales, black friday, and the christmas sales.

good luck


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## ProfoundSilence (May 14, 2021)

Rimsky's should be easy to get ahold of as a PDF


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## Kent (May 14, 2021)

Oh, definitely (actively!) listen to music in the vein of what you want to write. Books and forums only really help once you have an inner ear for the thing you're trying to do. And _that_ only gets better by training it!

As the saying goes: nobody comes out of their mother's womb knowing this stuff. Everybody has to start somewhere; celebrate the fact that it's now your turn!


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## cet34f (May 14, 2021)

Tale said:


> Anyway, any course you liked, youtube channels you love regarding this or something you find useful at all please let me know.


I like ScoreClub, but it's one of the expensive ones I was talking about due to their subscription model. You probably want to see the preview of "ORCHESTRATING the LINE" first then decide if it's worth the money.

I have not found any systematic tutorials on Youtube yet. I like Michael Barry's content, but I think he's only doing it as a hobby.


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## Snarf (May 14, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> I can show you some principles and practical methods that’ll teach you how to teach yourself acoustic orchestration as long as you can read music and are going to work at it. If that’s what you’re asking about, let me know, but understand that you won’t hear from me for probably a few days roughly. I will get back unless I’m dead.


Hi Paul, it's been a couple days - I hope you are not dead! I'm actually curious about your orchestration principles if you'd still like to share.


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## pixelcrave (May 14, 2021)

I completely agree with what @doctoremmet has said about don't overthink it and what @bill5 said to "cheat" for the purpose of learning and trying things out.

I'm happy to share my own examples here — NOT to say this is a great example, but sharing it only because I'm in the similar position as you are (I'm a newbie when it comes to orchestration - or composition in general — literally just bought Logic and samples less than a year ago). So I'm still very much an amateur. With that said, here's my example:

1) I studied this walkthrough video from Homay at Spitfire — there are tons other Spitfire walkthrough videos that I've been watching that propelled me to pick this up as a hobby, but this particular video is the one I used as a study reference.




2) then I tried to make my own version below — if you notice, I "cheated" in that the intro is set up the same way (using glockenspiel, celeste to start with, then adding piccolo & flute to layer as background color). That video also gives me insights how she alternated / layered different instruments (her rationale helped a lot) — so applied the same principles to basically use the same/ similar chord "blocks" that I sketched, but changed the melody and harmony a bit, along with alternating brass / wind / strings — with strings being always present throughout (see my Logic timeline blocks at 9, 17, 25, 31). 

Here's the video for my piece in Logic




And here's the soundcloud version with a slightly better audio




Again, nobody will confuse this as a masterpiece, and I'm sure a real composer here will find lots of amateur mistakes in this piece (I'll take that risk of being vulnerable so you can hopefully learn something from me sharing this). I'm still learning as I have no music theory background, but I'll keep learning and just try to keep making stuff and not overthinking it. Enjoy the process and I look forward to hear more from you, but also learn more from you 

Cheers
- Ivan


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## Wally Garten (May 14, 2021)

"The instruments are miked up in the studio and the *noise/music* is transfered to the multi-track tape...."

I like that they're not particular about which one you make.



doctoremmet said:


>


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## Voider (May 14, 2021)

Tale said:


> BUT, I'm struggling so much to choose the right instruments for everything..Yes I know I want some epic melody so I'll give that to a French Horn, but then what?


That's the wrong approach, if you make your next 200 tracks with all epic lines being played by french horns you'll get pretty bored. The right approach is, what color, flavour, feeling, should a specific line have. What does it represent, how can I create that feeling, that emotion, that atmosphere. And it must not be only one instrument, it can be one, two or several sections together. Then you'll be confronted with the question which section should play which part of it.

But the answers to these questions will be pretty clear to you if you actually think about your composition and plan it out a bit instead of just jamming some stuff in and just take whatever sounds good. While this is easier as beginner, first ideas are often not the best ones, and if you don't plan everything carefully out especially in orchestral music, you'll have a hard time to develop your idea.

If you however start with the idea first, have a rough frame, understand what you want to create and find the best options for it, everything else will crystallise out in the process.


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## Gene Pool (May 14, 2021)

Snarf said:


> Hi Paul, it's been a couple days - I hope you are not dead! I'm actually curious about your orchestration principles if you'd still like to share.


Haha.

Still no opportunity yet. And still not dead.

btw, chuckled at “Paul.” Musta got that from my RB handle, but I’m not Paul (or Pool/Poole for that matter). If you’re confused, they don’t like fake-sounding names over there and wouldn’t keep "Gene Pool" so I chose “Paul” for the alliteration. Lame, yes.

bbl


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## Snarf (May 15, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> Haha.
> 
> Still no opportunity yet. And still not dead.



That's cool, no rush! Just wanted to let you know that there are people who enjoy your music theory contributions on this forum.



Gene Pool said:


> btw, chuckled at “Paul.” Musta got that from my RB handle, but I’m not Paul (or Pool/Poole for that matter). If you’re confused, they don’t like fake-sounding names over there and wouldn’t keep "Gene Pool" so I chose “Paul” for the alliteration. Lame, yes.



Makes sense. Glad I won't have to feel sorry for you and your parents' naming decision


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## mikeh-375 (May 20, 2021)

...that's immensely generous of you @Gene Pool ...nice work. Good to see you highlighting 2 of the best orchestrators in the business too.
Just one issue though....how come your handwriting is so f***in neat even in a hurry!!!!!...


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## mikeh-375 (May 22, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> Ha! You can tell I was in a hurry when I wrote it because in bar 265, 2nd stave, beat 4 is offset to the left a bit. Screwed up that dovetail with stave 1.
> 
> Anyway, the notation drawing stuff was drilled into me by my score-prep teacher. He was old school and showed me a bunch of things you can notate by hand that Finale and Sibelius couldn't and still can't do. I later modified his system into a quicker and more casual form (slash noteheads, etc.) so I could use it when I wanted to make something for my own archival purposes or score submission, except for the latter I used regular noteheads.
> 
> ...


I use mechanical pencils too, but not a triangle. My lead size is also 0.9. Composing is too messy on the ms for me to use any other implements apart from a 60cm aluminium ruler to draw bar lines on my big score paper. I haven't transitioned to writing directly into Sibelius neither which is a pain because I am so far behind with inputting past compositions. I did get a laptop with touch screen and pen for Sibelius and that has speeded up my workflow immensely, I just need to get more comfortable with tackling my in-tray.

I always think score reduction as you've demonstrated it is the best way to learn orchestration and far more instructive than mock-ups.


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## chibear (May 22, 2021)

kmaster said:


> Oh, definitely (actively!) listen to music in the vein of what you want to write. Books and forums only really help once you have an inner ear for the thing you're trying to do. And _that_ only gets better by training it!


This! When you are not writing listen. Eventually a choice of instruments for a given line will become obvious to you as you write. The fact you are using a DAW means you can experiment easily and quickly. You won’t always be right, but you’ll have an idea where to go. In a tune I’m working on now, after 2 music degrees and many decades playing in orchestras, a growly section went from being orchestrated for bass section to horns and trombones to solo tuba. I could give you the names of composers who would have used each of those instruments in that situation.


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## X-Bassist (May 22, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> I’m an old punkrock guy hehe. Maybe I got carried away here


Yes.

My advice to the OP is to play and play your VI’s. Like doc said, learn them.

But each time you play learn to hit “Retrospective” record every time you stop. Once it is a reflex you will find all kinds of great material that is all yours. 😊

As far as instruments, listen to similar material that you like and see what they did with it. Classics (esp orchestral) will give you lots of ideas for orchestration and instrument choices.

One piece of good advice is use instruments that are comfortable in the range you want to use... something high? Could be flutes, violins, piccolo trumpet... something low? Tuba, Contra bassoon, Bass... Large range? French Horns, Cello, basson.... learning your VI’s will teach you all these things.

Learn what instruments work best in what octaves, where they sound the sweetest (not just total range), you’ll find sounds you love, then apply those to your music. I keep templetes of the stuff I like, then import those tracks into my work session. Learning your instruments and how to play them will bring more ideas. Always be willing to mix it up, adding something you normally wouldn’t.

You can always try swapping out instruments once the part is played in, but keep in mind every vi is programmed and recorded differently, so replaying or tweaking might be called for to make it work well when swapping. Add the instrument on the same midi channel (don’t replace) then mute the old one (you may want to go back 😄).

I even keep the old performance with it. Once it works with a specific VI, it works. And I have gone back repeatedly, at first thinking I could do better. Nope. 😂 Then I tweak the midi. Honestly my favorite part, since each detail can be perfected, but I’m happy when it’s over. And when it’s played right in one go, magic!

Beyond that it’s listening to others and lifting all you can. Every great composer has begun by taking ideas from others, then making it their own. But start by asking “Why does this sound so good?” Sometimes the instrument choices makes all the difference.


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## Saxer (May 22, 2021)

I would start simple... and small! As you are a guitar player: write a guitar melody and add a comping string section. Or write for flute and pizz bass with guitar comping. Later you can try to replace the guitar by other orchestral instruments, maybe a harp or a celesta. Step by step from the known to the unknown.
You get a much better feel for the taste of a meal if you know the taste of the single ingredients.


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## sIR dORT (May 22, 2021)

kmaster said:


> Oh, definitely (actively!) listen to music in the vein of what you want to write.


This x 100. I'd definitely try to listen to, break down, and then recreate in Cubase a track by one of your favorite composers. For example, I did Across the Stars by JW one time and learned that he basically uses brass to present the chords and then puts the melody in octaves in the strings. And that's just one recipe from one small section of one song.


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## el-bo (May 22, 2021)

mikeh-375 said:


> ...that's immensely generous of you @Gene Pool


Indeed! Magnificent post 

Will bookmark the thread, should I ever get to the stage that this makes more sense.


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## Tale (May 23, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> @Tale
> 
> Even though you’ve had time to get a Phd in Mastery of the Orchestration Arts since you posted your question, I’ll see what I can add to the thread. (You should heed Dave Connor’s earlier comment, by the way.)
> 
> ...


This is so fantastic many thanks.

With this kind of depth knowledge in which I assume you have just covered the tip of the iceberg I believe I should go one step at a time.

For example, correct me if I'm mistaken but for Texture you mean the whole process of writing melody, harmony and countermelody?

At the moment I'm just sketching by piano, one at a time and I definitely agree that whenever I manage a good composition (or at least above my average..) the orchestration works better, at least until I get into a wall, something that happens pretty soon I must admit (thats why I started the thread).

In this scenario, where can I get a good training, resources for developing my textures? Is it mandatory to get a formal teacher or can I build my way up?

Many thanks all!


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