# First time seller looking for some advice on best practice (selling on VI For Sale Forum)



## Paul Jelfs (Nov 15, 2020)

Hi there,

Was not quite sure where this question should go, so if I have asked in the wrong place please move. 

I am looking to sell for the first time on VI CONTROL board, but have never done it before. 

I have sold lots of music hardware and some software via ebay but never directly on the forum.

As it is a software collection worth potentially hundreds of pounds (Steinberg Iconica Collection) and I have no history with selling here, what is the best way to do it so the seller feels safe and secure buying from me, and in return I do not risk being scammed (giving the license before being paid)? 

Does selling through paypal give the seller and buyer some protection? I know a couple of members on here that could vouch for me, but having read some of the recent scams that happened in summer with Best Service libraries, I thought I would as on here before putting anything up for sale. 

Any advice would be welcomed. I could sell it through ebay, but the fees involved would make it more expensive for both me and the buyer. 

Cheers PJ


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## doctoremmet (Nov 15, 2020)

As one of those who got scammed, I can tell you this. PayPal does offer some protection, but some of us have had to wait for weeks or made one simple mistake in the way they filed their claim and were basically out of options (and money). And NEVER use the Family and Friends option 

So it remains a tricky and delicate subject. Speaking for myself, moving forward I would only ever engage in a transaction with a forum member who has an X number of meaningful posts and with whom I have interacted before on a relevant subject matter, so I know this person “somewhat” to be a real musician and not someone who is merely on here to sell something (like on KnobCloud for instance, where one can easily spot sellers grabbing any and all free Waves plug-in and then selling it for 25 bucks). So every buyer needs to consider at least that. Of course, WTB ads will attract scammers “who happen to have what you’re looking for, so be careful with those. Also be wary of sellers who sell the same plug-in twice haha.

Anyway, my advice to you would be: make yourself known here (like with this very post) and try and interact here for a while. Btw, I do realize I am giving tips here to the actual scammers too hehe, but my guess is they wouldn’t really like to invest the time and also would easily fail to impress “us” with their contributions . And of course, feedback from KVR buyers always helps...

My 2 cents.


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## Paul Jelfs (Nov 16, 2020)

Thank you , as i am going to be selling Iconica Opus that is a few hundred pounds, my worry is always I want the seller to Know they can trust me - but also I am wary about giving the elicenser code first and never seeing the money . 

So its a tricky one. I have got quite a few posts on here and a history, so hopefully that helps. Maybe if someone who the community trusts - would be so kind, could be an intermediary ? 

That way the seller pays first and the trusted seller gives the serial after payment? 

I would not want to destroy my reputation (what reputation! Jk) for the sake of a few hundred quid, when I am beginning to study a Master of Arts in composing in January, as it would pretty much blacklist any chance I would have of making a living in composing. 

So any potential buyers, please do not be upset if I ask about your past on here, and you can of course do the same for me  

Thanks for your advice ,

Paul


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## doctoremmet (Nov 16, 2020)

Paul Jelfs said:


> I am wary about giving the elicenser code first and never seeing the money


I have actually never witnessed this as a buyer myself. So I understand the anxiety but (unfortunately) usually it is the buyer taking ALL the risks...

Clarification: ANY seller I have ever encountered always expected a payment before any licenses or serials came my way.


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## doctoremmet (Nov 16, 2020)

Out of curiosity... what would your asking price be? There’s a chap on here that’s looking for a deal on Opus 😆 (not me).


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## Crowe (Nov 16, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> I have actually never witnessed this as a buyer myself. So I understand the anxiety but (unfortunately) usually it is the buyer taking ALL the risks...
> 
> Clarification: ANY seller I have ever encountered always expected a payment before any licenses or serials came my way.



This is how pretty much all sales work. You don't expect a business to send you a product before you've paid for it (in europe, at least).

Anyway, as a rule, I'd say only do business with trusted Forum Members.

Which means you gotta be one as well.


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## doctoremmet (Nov 16, 2020)

Shiirai said:


> This is how pretty much all sales work. You don't expect a business to send you a product before you've paid for it (in europe, at least).


Absolutely. I wasn’t complaining, merely stating empirical facts to point out that OP’s risk likely is a bit lower than that of an average buyer 🤣


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## doctoremmet (Nov 16, 2020)

Shiirai said:


> Anyway, as a rule, I'd say only do business with trusted Forum Members.
> 
> Which means you gotta be one as well.


This


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## Crowe (Nov 16, 2020)

I do wonder if there isn't a way where we can force the issue a bit more. Like, you can't use the Sale section unless you've been active for X months or X posts.

I just ran into a seller with a single post which always feels really odd to me.

Maybe a mod can chime in.


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## doctoremmet (Nov 16, 2020)

Shiirai said:


> I do wonder if there isn't a way where we can force the issue a bit more. Like, you can't use the Sale section unless you've been active for X months or X posts.
> 
> I just ran into a seller with a single post which always feels really odd to me.
> 
> Maybe a mod can chime in.


This has been discussed with Mike a while ago (the thread is still up somewhere I guess). Concensus was this is not going to happen any time soon. So it comes down to common sense, which is basically the general rule you posted above: never buy from a person that is not an active member on here. There are some members whose primary interest actually seems to be selling plugins, which is not necessarily a bad thing. These people usually have a ton of positive feedback from buyers we all know. But as a rule I urge people to refrain from buying off of members with only a small number of posts or people who offer something via DM.


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## ZeroZero (Nov 16, 2020)

I would be interested, but probably the conditions of sale would not be to your liking. The price would have to be significantly below half price, as Opus is likely to be half price on Black Friday (I am waiting), secondly I would need to be satisfied that I am registered and that Steinberg are happy that the product is now mine, before I parted with any money. You would be taking ALL risks. this is probably unacceptable.


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## Crowe (Nov 16, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> This has been discussed with Mike a while ago (the thread is still up somewhere I guess). Concensus was this is not going to happen any time soon. So it comes down to common sense, which is basically the general rule you posted above: never buy from a person that is not an active member on here. There are some members whose primary interest actually seems to be selling plugins, which is not necessarily a bad thing. These people usually have a ton of positive feedback from buyers we all know. But as a rule I urge people to refrain from buying off of members with only a small number of posts or people who offer something via DM.



The problem with common sense is that it's rather uncommon.


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## Paul Jelfs (Nov 16, 2020)

I have put it up for sale on the for sale. Depending on interest level, I may well take offers /reduce the price or sell it through ebay (but extra cost for fees).

I would not know how to scam someone, and am just a musician who needs money for my course I have been accepted too. Quite happy to exchange phone numbers etc and speak to potential buyers to put their minds at ease. 

PJ


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## doctoremmet (Nov 16, 2020)

Shiirai said:


> The problem with common sense is that it's rather uncommon.


Yet greed, or as our euphemism calls it: GAS, is far more common.


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## doctoremmet (Nov 16, 2020)

Paul Jelfs said:


> I have put it up for sale on the for sale. Depending on interest level, I may well take offers /reduce the price or sell it through ebay (but extra cost for fees).
> 
> I would not know how to scam someone, and am just a musician who needs money for my course I have been accepted too. Quite happy to exchange phone numbers etc and speak to potential buyers to put their minds at ease.
> 
> PJ


Paul, last thing I wanted to do was to imply you’re a scammer! All I said was more of a general discussion about a common phenomenon. Good luck with the sale!


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## Paul Jelfs (Nov 16, 2020)

Hi Zero Zero, 

If it does go on sale this year - I don't think it will because last time it was end of October from my quick googling - then I would obviously drop the price further. 

I would expect the buyer to pay first, but If you are seriously interested. I get little interest , and you have an established past on here, that many other established posters can back you up then it might be possible to do it your way


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## Paul Jelfs (Nov 16, 2020)

Sorry Doc, no I did not take it that way at all


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## doctoremmet (Nov 16, 2020)

Paul Jelfs said:


> Sorry Doc, no I did not take it that way at all


I know, but just wanted to make sure you understood ❤


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## iMovieShout (Nov 16, 2020)

My 2 pennies worth:
I'm afraid that based on experience and burned fingers, I would never sell anything online other than eBay, and will only accept payment with PayPal. Even then its not fool proof, and I've had funds tied up in PayPal for weeks, whilst PayPal ensure a transaction is all above board. Similarly I only buy used items online through eBay and PayPal as they provide fairly good protection to the buyer.


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## ZeroZero (Nov 16, 2020)

Paul Jelfs said:


> Hi Zero Zero,
> 
> If it does go on sale this year - I don't think it will because last time it was end of October from my quick googling - then I would obviously drop the price further.
> 
> I would expect the buyer to pay first, but If you are seriously interested. I get little interest , and you have an established past on here, that many other established posters can back you up then it might be possible to do it your way


 I will then wait until Black Friday. My conditions of purchase will not change, the _whole _risk will be with you. I am a trustworthy person and not trying to con you in any way, I am trying to be up front. BTW I am no longer on Paypal after being a victim of a Paypal scam. You will see that I have been a member of this site for years, but I have not been active for a while, as I moth-balled my PC and concentrated on piano. I have owned Cubase for about three decades. If you do decide to go ahead you WILL be paid immediately I receive the licence, I do realsie that oyu only have my word but that is what will happen.


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## ZeroZero (Nov 16, 2020)

jpb007.uk said:


> My 2 pennies worth:
> I'm afraid that based on experience and burned fingers, I would never sell anything online other than eBay, and will only accept payment with PayPal. Even then its not fool proof, and I've had funds tied up in PayPal for weeks, whilst PayPal ensure a transaction is all above board. Similarly I only buy used items online through eBay and PayPal as they provide fairly good protection to the buyer.


I sold some gear on Ebay. I sent it to the buyer. He did not accept it at his door, it went back to the sorting office. I could not pick it up. The Buyer then sued me via Ebay, I could prove it was at the sorting office - he lost his case. He then sued me again via Paypal, the same case and again I proved it was at the post office local to him. I lost the case and Paypal deducted the money, a lot of money, from my account. They refused any appeal. He then simply collected the gear. I will never have a paypal account again.


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## doctoremmet (Nov 16, 2020)

ZeroZero said:


> I sold some gear on Ebay. I sent it to the buyer. He did not accept it at his door, it went back to the sorting office. I could not pick it up. The Buyer then sued me via Ebay, I could prove it was at the sorting office - he lost his case. He then sued me again via Paypal, the same case and again I proved it was at the post office local to him. I lost the case and Paypal deducted the money, a lot of money, from my account. They refused any appeal. He then simply collected the gear. I will never have a paypal account again.


PayPal has lost of a lot of good will for me too. The whole scam issue this summer has resulted in a lot of people losing serious $. Licenses were bought over at Best Service with stolen credit cards and sold here. I actually had the licenses in my account, and only weeks later they were silently removed. Wtf! Only after an active inquiry by me, it became clear that apparently I had purchased a serial that had originally been paid with a stolen card. Then I was lucky and had PayPal honour my claim against the seller. However, people in the same boat unfortunately picked the wrong “reason for refund claim code” and their cases were dismissed outright. And here’s the kicker: you can only file ONE complaint for each transaction, so game over for them. Horrible customer service on multiple fronts.


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## ZeroZero (Nov 16, 2020)

Wow that is HORRIBLE. I do feel for you. 2020 has sure brought the low lifes out from under their swamp rocks. That make me even MORE cautious. You can't trust the buyer, you can't trust the seller, you can't trust the bank. 
I wanted to take my up again with PayPal, but as they have already got my money they have made it impossible for me to communicate with them as an ex customer.


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## iMovieShout (Nov 16, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> PayPal has lost of a lot of good will for me too. The whole scam issue this summer has resulted in a lot of people losing serious $. Licenses were bought over at Best Service with stolen credit cards and sold here. I actually had the licenses in my account, and only weeks later they were silently removed. Wtf! Only after an active inquiry by me, it became clear that apparently I had purchased a serial that had originally been paid with a stolen card. Then I was lucky and had PayPal honour my claim against the seller. However, people in the same boat unfortunately picked the wrong “reason for refund claim code” and their cases were dismissed outright. And here’s the kicker: you can only file ONE complaint for each transaction, so game over for them. Horrible customer service on multiple fronts.



Wow. That's horrible. I only ever buy software and licenses new from the vendor or a reputable reseller such as Best Service, BigFish, Gear4Music, etc. Yes it can cost more, but I prefer peace of mind and to know that the vendor will provide support if I need it. After all, any distraction from my workflow is down-time and potentially increase pressure versus deadlines, or worst a potentially lost client.

I must admit I haven't done much on eBay for some months now, so wasn't aware of the scams. Good to beware though. Thanks for the heads up.


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## doctoremmet (Nov 16, 2020)

jpb007.uk said:


> Wow. That's horrible. I only ever buy software and licenses new from the vendor or a reputable reseller such as Best Service, BigFish, Gear4Music, etc. Yes it can cost more, but I prefer peace of mind and to know that the vendor will provide support if I need it. After all, any distraction from my workflow is down-time and potentially increase pressure versus deadlines, or worst a potentially lost client.
> 
> I must admit I haven't done much on eBay for some months now, so wasn't aware of the scams. Good to beware though. Thanks for the heads up.


That’s wise and a good overall strategy. As a hobbyist I can allow for a slightly more risky strategy, but I have learned my lesson


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## Stringtree (Nov 16, 2020)

If you're going to go for it, prompt and honest communication will help.

These things can take some time for the developer to switch things around and issue the new license to the buyer. That can be frustrating and scary for someone taking a chance on a person-to-person purchase, when the constant fear is that they've been taken. (But what I do have are a very particular set of skills; skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you. If you let my VI go now, that'll be the end of it.)

Letting the buyer know exactly what you've done and details of communications you've initiated or received can go a long way toward making the process less awful.

I've purchased two things this way, and no problems. PayPal has been great for ten years or so, especially considering I had to wait for my bank to process all my Spitfire transactions. It's made it easy for me, and I've encountered no fraud. Best of luck, M8!


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## Paul Jelfs (Nov 17, 2020)

Thanks for everyone's input and help with my first effort selling.

Really sorry to hear some of the nightmare stories that people have experienced . There are some really scummy people out there :( 

I have now listed Steinberg's Full Iconica Opus on the for sale thread, and am open to sensible offers for anyone that is seriously interested  

Does anyone know if Steinberg are having a Black Friday sale this year? Obviously this will affect my pricing if they do, don't want to look silly selling it more than you can get it from the retailer! 

Thanks again all and hope you have better luck in future dealing with trusted people :(

PJ


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## doctoremmet (Nov 17, 2020)

Paul Jelfs said:


> Thanks for everyone's input and help with my first effort selling.
> 
> Really sorry to hear some of the nightmare stories that people have experienced . There are some really scummy people out there :(
> 
> ...


Lessons learned. FWIW, I’d definitely engage in a transaction with you. Good luck!


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