# Modern Sounding - Hybrid Soundtracks are very popular these days



## muziksculp

Hi,

I have been noticing that many of the new Soundtracks released sound more modern, hybrid, with a good amount of creative sound design in the orchestration. They are not the typical Pure Acoustic Orchestral Cinematic sound we seem to refer to frequently on this forum.

It seems to me that this is the new trend, I personally am a big fan of Hybrid scores, especially ones that integrate synths nicely into their orchestrations.

What are your thoughts about this new trend, and where it might be leading us, and do you think there is a bit too much emphasis on pure acoustic orchestration in this forum, and not much about the modern/hybrid sounding orchestra we hear these days.

What are your thoughts about this topic.

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## Consona

A new trend?

Goldsmith was using synths with the orchestra more than 30 years ago. And noone has composed better "hybrid" scores since those days.


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## muziksculp

Consona said:


> A new trend?
> 
> Goldsmith was using synths with the orchestra more than 30 years ago. And noone has composed better "hybrid" scores since those days.



Yes, correct J. Goldsmith, and other composers did use Synths in their orchestrations, but I'm referring to the more modern sound that we hear these days, it's a bit more dissonant, and has more sound-design elements to the orchestration, in addition to synths, less of the cinematic big hollywood Brass sound, they don't really resemble the older Goldsmith era hybrid soundtrack character.


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## Consona

muziksculp said:


> they don't really resemble the older Goldsmith era hybrid soundtrack character


Mainly in the compositional department... 

Otherwise some of his pieces are quite synth-heavy.


Maybe you should post examples of what you are talking about, but "hybrid" means some good amount of orchestral (or non-electronic) stuff will be present.


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## muziksculp

Well, some of the scores might have more emphasis on sound-design/synth elements of their orchestration, with a bit of orchestral, it really depends, there is a lot of variety these days.


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## Consona

Examples?


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## muziksculp




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## Consona

Jeez, this type of scoring.

There's nothing hybrid about it, it's just synths + sound-design.

It's not even music, it's a sound-design exercise.


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## muziksculp

Consona said:


> Jeez, this type of scoring.
> 
> There's nothing hybrid about it, it's just synths + sound-design.
> 
> It's not even music, it's a sound-design exercise.



Maybe not exactly the best examples, but there are some soundtracks with both elements, acoustic-orchestral mixed with Synth & Sound-Design. As I mentioned earlier, there is a huge variety these days. 

I will try to post some more examples when I find the right one/s. 

Sometimes even some of the orchestral sounds are distorted, to sound like sound-design/synth element in the score.


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## muziksculp




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## muziksculp




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## muziksculp




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## Daniel James

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have been noticing that many of the new Soundtracks released sound more modern, hybrid, with a good amount of creative sound design in the orchestration. They are not the typical Pure Acoustic Orchestral Cinematic sound we seem to refer to frequently on this forum.
> 
> It seems to me that this is the new trend, I personally am a big fan of Hybrid scores, especially ones that integrate synths nicely into their orchestrations.
> 
> What are your thoughts about this new trend, and where it might be leading us, and do you think there is a bit too much emphasis on pure acoustic orchestration in this forum, and not much about the modern/hybrid sounding orchestra we hear these days.
> 
> What are your thoughts about this topic.
> 
> Thanks,
> Muziksculp



I LOVE hybrid scores, BUT only the creative ones. Hybrid music is a double edged sword...It has literally unlimited potential to create new sounds and textures that are just impossible with the orchestra. A skilled sound designer can evoke an entire range of emotion with nothing but pure sound design manipulation.

The otherside of this however is, once someone has figured out a new cool thing, it is very easy, for even a new composer to replicate, and saturate the market with. 

The thing that makes hybrid great is in the solving of the puzzle of creating a whole new texture or tone not heard before. So its easy to make a hybrid score that works by just following the trends that are working and have already been worked out by someone else its not so easy to create something new. But if you keep your eye on the innovators you get to hear the future a few months or years ahead of time.

-DJ


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## muziksculp

Daniel James said:


> I LOVE hybrid scores, BUT only the creative ones. Hybrid music is a double edged sword...It has literally unlimited potential to create new sounds and textures that are just impossible with the orchestra. A skilled sound designer can evoke an entire range of emotion with nothing but pure sound design manipulation.
> 
> The otherside of this however is, once someone has figured out a new cool thing, it is very easy, for even a new composer to replicate, and saturate the market with.
> 
> The thing that makes hybrid great is in the solving of the puzzle of creating a whole new texture or tone not heard before. So its easy to make a hybrid score that works by just following the trends that are working and have already been worked out by someone else its not so easy to create something new. But if you keep your eye on the innovators you get to hear the future a few months or years ahead of time.
> 
> -DJ



Hi Daniel,

Yes, I totally agree with what you wrote. 

Also a fan or creative scores that incorporate sound-design, synths, ..etc. to provide a unique, and memorable, or emotional impact to a film, or scene. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Fenicks

I love hybrid scores. Ben Frost's work on Dark is particularly inspirational and beautiful to me. I've been trying to create a similar sound that I can use as a singer-songwriter.


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## muziksculp

@Fenicks ,

Your Youtube video is not viewable, it says .. 'This video is not available' .


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## Fenicks

muziksculp said:


> @Fenicks ,
> 
> Your Youtube video is not viewable, it says .. 'This video is not available' .




Oh! How strange. I've updated it with another link. Let me know if that works.


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## muziksculp

Fenicks said:


> Oh! How strange. I've updated it with another link. Let me know if that works.



Thanks. Yes, works now.


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## muziksculp

Fenicks said:


> I've been trying to create a similar sound that I can use as a singer-songwriter.



I'm guessing you mean using this type of musical vibe to add vocals to ?


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## Fenicks

muziksculp said:


> I'm guessing you mean using this type of musical vibe to add vocals to ?



Yes, and that uses experimental pop or rock song structures. I'm a long ways to achieving that but I listen to a lot of hybrid soundtracks for inspiration.


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## muziksculp

Fenicks said:


> Yes, and that uses experimental pop or rock song structures. I'm a long ways to achieving that but I listen to a lot of hybrid soundtracks for inspiration.



That's an interesting genre of music for a song writer, vocalist. Lots of room to experiment with musical ideas, less rigid than the traditional song form, and can be quite emotional depending on the musical vibe you use for the vocal track. Remember 'Enya' in the late 80's early 90's with her New Age vocal music style. She was very famous, and a big commercial success.


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## purple

Hybrid orchestral stuff has been the norm for decades, no? What you're posting here is purely sound design, which I don't hate and I also don't look forward to hating when the market is saturated with it.


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## Macrawn

Consona said:


> Jeez, this type of scoring.
> 
> There's nothing hybrid about it, it's just synths + sound-design.
> 
> It's not even music, it's a sound-design exercise.


it's music


Fenicks said:


> I love hybrid scores. Ben Frost's work on Dark is particularly inspirational and beautiful to me. I've been trying to create a similar sound that I can use as a singer-songwriter.



I thought music for this show was great.


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## Macrawn

Daniel James said:


> I LOVE hybrid scores, BUT only the creative ones. Hybrid music is a double edged sword...It has literally unlimited potential to create new sounds and textures that are just impossible with the orchestra. A skilled sound designer can evoke an entire range of emotion with nothing but pure sound design manipulation.
> 
> The otherside of this however is, once someone has figured out a new cool thing, it is very easy, for even a new composer to replicate, and saturate the market with.
> 
> The thing that makes hybrid great is in the solving of the puzzle of creating a whole new texture or tone not heard before. So its easy to make a hybrid score that works by just following the trends that are working and have already been worked out by someone else its not so easy to create something new. But if you keep your eye on the innovators you get to hear the future a few months or years ahead of time.
> 
> -DJ


I thought the market was more oversaturated with vanilla orchestra stuff that sounds kinda samey. I don't think there needs to be worry about oversaturation of hybrid stuff with sound design because these folks picked to do these shows have a long track record. The mediocre stuff doesn't make it. But I suppose one could put out a cd of it and call it ambient. Like I don't think many people could match that Ben Frost score even if it's "easy".


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## Consona

Macrawn said:


> it's music


And this is a painting.









Those examples are not the Tenet level crap (that Expanse track was way better), but why has the music become so flat and featureless?

The B-est 1950s horror flick and ambientiest 1960s twilight zone music is way more interesting and musical than this.


It irks me I must bitch about nearly everything, but so much of the current music is so meh. 

Everyone who can draw a midi note and load up a synth in their DAW is a composer now.


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## Ahmad Ali

You chose a topic that will spark discussion, a discussion that will go nowhere. Some people have a fixed idea of what music is and are quite judgmental of whatever doesn't meet that criteria. Shame really but to each their own.

I personally love that approach to film scoring - or just plain music in general. Sound focused and very precise melody work. And yes, I love TENET, and I'd rather make a score with that approach than any other (depending on the project of course).

There are definitely young composers out there who are inspired by the more traditional sound. I don't think it'll ever go away.

There are so many examples but this always comes to my mind when I think of a hybrid score - or track in particular. The way Wallfisch mixed orchestral elements with very abstract sound design that FIT the scene it was made for, is quite brilliant.


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## Kent

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have been noticing that many of the new Soundtracks released sound more modern, hybrid, with a good amount of creative sound design in the orchestration. They are not the typical Pure Acoustic Orchestral Cinematic sound we seem to refer to frequently on this forum.
> 
> It seems to me that this is the new trend, I personally am a big fan of Hybrid scores, especially ones that integrate synths nicely into their orchestrations.
> 
> What are your thoughts about this new trend, and where it might be leading us, and do you think there is a bit too much emphasis on pure acoustic orchestration in this forum, and not much about the modern/hybrid sounding orchestra we hear these days.
> 
> What are your thoughts about this topic.
> 
> Thanks,
> Muziksculp


Wait, I thought you were trolling...but this is a serious thread!


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## Mark Kouznetsov

kmaster said:


> Wait, I thought you were trolling...but this is a serious thread!


Haven't you heard about this hybrid music? People are using synths nowadays (at least that's what I heard, but I'm not sure). I got to check it out!


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## Kent

Mark_Kouznetsov said:


> Haven't you heard about this hybrid music? People are using synths nowadays (at least that's what I heard, but I'm not sure). I got to check it out!


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## Andy_P

Consona said:


> Jeez, this type of scoring.
> 
> There's nothing hybrid about it, it's just synths + sound-design.
> 
> It's not even music, it's a sound-design exercise.



Excuse me but I do not understand,

It is music when a classical composer experiments with instruments and unconventional playing techniques, harmonies, effects but it is not when it is done by Trent Reznor using synths and samples?
Is there a council deciding what is music and what is not?


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## rgames

Sound design is an element of music. But music as a whole includes many other elements and I wouldn't refer to someone who does only sound design as a musician. I'd refer to that person as a sound designer. "Musician" implies some skill with the other elements of music.

So, yes, sound design can be considered music if that's the only element that is used. It can have valid musical worth. But there's a lot more contained within the broader world of "music".

rgames


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## marclawsonmusic

Tricky topic, but maybe it's not helpful to look at the issue as 'music or not'... but rather different methods of scoring.

Hildur did an amazing job on Chernobyl. Not all of it was 'musical' per se, but damn those metallic sounds were _very _effective against the images of the nuclear plant and those stark Soviet-era cities.

And, the distorted sounds that reminded me of the radiation meters - my skin was literally crawling when I watched that... I could feel the radiation on my skin. So, IMO that was excellent scoring. It wasn't exactly 'musical', but this kind of composing is more about creating a 'soundscape' than a tune - which is equally valid from a dramatic perspective.


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## muziksculp

Hi,

Thanks for the Interesting replies, and feedback to my post. 

What I'm trying to get across via my post is that we seem to focus more on the pure orchestral (all acoustic) type of music scoring on this forum, and not much the other type, be it labeled hybrid, or sound-design mixed with Orchestra, or synths-orchestra and sound-design, or synth and sound-sound design. For convenience, I referred to this type of genre Hybrid without being too specific. 

imho. Hybrid soundtracks are very musical to me, if they mix some sound-design elements it just makes them even more interesting to listen to, new sounds that my ears will experience, nothing wrong with that, as long as there is a musical pattern, logic, and structure it makes me enjoy the soundtrack, and many times, it is more successful at adding the right emotional flavor to the film/scene than traditional orchestral music. 

I feel some people look down, and have a snobbish attitude towards any soundtrack that is not purely orchestral, hopefully that is not the case on this forum, but if it is, my advice is to have an open mind, and look at the whole soundtrack world, and scoring for film with more of a modern, and flexible approach. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Tice

I like the general concept of including synthetic sounds in the craft, but I do not like all iterations of that concept. (I mean, of course)
Nor do I feel it's a replacement for non-hybrid scoring. It's just another tool in your toolbox. Preferably, you're skilled at using every tool in that box, and your director allows you to use any of them that you feel you need to bring their vision to life. (provided you're on the same page about what that vision is)
But this makes it impossible for me to view then in any hierarchy. Pink is not better than blue, or vice versa.


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## vitocorleone123

It's a soundtrack, not a songtrack. Any sounds the support, reinforce, contradict, etc. the themes and emotions and such of a film qualify as a soundtrack. Orchestral is very been-there-done-that-for-decades. Doesn't mean it'll go away or shouldn't be done, but there's absolutely room for a LOT of exploration and alternative. Same with traditional song structures, as well.

No, I never imagined when growing up that Oingo Boingo, Nine Inch Nails, and Devo would produce award winning film composers. It's fantastic. I don't love all their work, but they definitely bring a different "voice". I look forward to new voices using or combining new sounds and techniques - not just good old fashioned orchestral.

But I'm the audience, not the composer, in this scenario.


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## Henrik B. Jensen

I am listening a lot to this one currently:





So much atmosphere in this soundtrack. I love it!


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## jcrosby

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have been noticing that many of the new Soundtracks released sound more modern, hybrid, with a good amount of creative sound design in the orchestration. They are not the typical Pure Acoustic Orchestral Cinematic sound we seem to refer to frequently on this forum.
> 
> It seems to me that this is the new trend, I personally am a big fan of Hybrid scores, especially ones that integrate synths nicely into their orchestrations.
> 
> What are your thoughts about this new trend, and where it might be leading us, and do you think there is a bit too much emphasis on pure acoustic orchestration in this forum, and not much about the modern/hybrid sounding orchestra we hear these days.
> 
> What are your thoughts about this topic.
> 
> Thanks,
> Muziksculp


I've always loved orchestral music and grew up, and still listen to everything from industrial to metal to drum and bass. Personally I've always loved the hybrid sound. Frankly, (and I know I'm risking blasphemy here!) I've never been big on the JW fanfare score trend that ruled film music for so long. I'm not saying I don't like it, I'm simply saying it was a bit of a cliche that I noticed long before the film score became _hyper_ hybrid.

And to be crystal clear about the statement above! It's not that I don't love and appreciate the shit out of JW, I've seen him conduct BSO a buuuunch of times... Every time a thrill. But I'm also a huge film fanatic and I'm glad film scoring has a broader palette of sound textures that tend to be more adaptive to different film genres. (When done well. There are a ton of mediocre hybrid scores... Most of the marvel films for example movies should get a_ least interesting_ _score, or best use of temp music in a final score_ award. )


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## Kevinside

tenet really...no good sign for the future, if tenet is called a wonderful score...
If tenet is the pinnacle of the hybrid scoring, then this genre is done and will die and hopefully rest in peace...


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## jcrosby

Kevinside said:


> tenet really...no good sign for the future, if tenet is called a wonderful score...
> If tenet is the pinnacle of the hybrid scoring, then this genre is done and will die and hopefully rest in peace...


I wouldn't call it wonderful. I would however say that the music fits the story very well. The role of film music is to support the story, period. Whether you like the music or not, (which I totally understand why), the reality if they chose LG for a very specific purpose, and I personally think it's a very good fit.

You could also say the same thing about anything Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross have put their mits on... The reality is that heavily synthesized music is hardly new in film scoring. Look at the original balde runner for example, Clockwork Orange, Raymond Scott, etc... I bet the same conversation was had by various composers after Clockwork Orange.

As long as there's been synthesizers, theremins, etc they've found a place in film music.


A fun bit of history: Union musicians attempting to ban synthesizers.









Today in 1982, the Musician’s Union wanted to ban synths...on Mr Moog's birthday!


On this day in 1982, the UK Musician’s Union wanted to ban synths from sessions and live performances, in the defence of orchestral musicians’ careers. The most fucked up thing about this is that it is the same day that none other than Robert Moog, god father and creator of the most infamous...




www.trouvelagroove.com





And from a wiki on drum machines. (Wish I could track down the article...)

_In 1959, Wurlitzer released the Sideman, which generates sounds mechanically by a rotating disc, similarly to a music box. A slider controls the tempo (between 34 and 150 beats per minute). Sounds can also be triggered individually through buttons on a control panel. 

*The Sideman was a success and drew criticism from musicians' unions, which ruled that it could only be used in cocktail lounges if the keyboardist was paid the wages of three musicians*. Wurlitzer ceased production of the Sideman in 1969.__[2]_

_








Drum machine - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org




_


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## muziksculp

Kevinside said:


> tenet really...no good sign for the future, if tenet is called a wonderful score...
> If tenet is the pinnacle of the hybrid scoring, then this genre is done and will die and hopefully rest in peace...



You don't have to like every hybrid score that is released, and not every hybrid style score is going to click with everyone. 

As long as there is a big variety, of hybrid scores, which there is, you will hopefully find some of them that you can relate to, or enjoy listening to. Tenet is just one score, and does not represent the future of hybrid scoring, I personally thought it was interesting, but not really my favorite type/style of hybrid soundtrack music.


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## Kevinside

The difference; Vangelis composed always with synths only at that time...Blade Runner was his first step combining is synthesizer abilities with orchestral scoring and jazz influenced themes....

The Tenet soundtrack is perfect in the movie, but as music itself, its more than underwhelming...
If you look at Nolans movies... the Inception ost brings so much more to the table...I am not a fan of zimmeresk Music, but Mr.Zimmer showed us all, how modern oder hybrid scoring works... I don´t know,if he is the end result or only a composer, who can only survive with his "little helpers"....

If you listen to tenet without seeing the movie...difficult


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## jcrosby

Kevinside said:


> The difference; Vangelis composed always with synths only at that time...Blade Runner was his first step combining is synthesizer abilities with orchestral scoring and jazz influenced themes....
> 
> The Tenet soundtrack is perfect in the movie, but as music itself, its more than underwhelming...
> If you look at Nolans movies... the Inception ost brings so much more to the table...I am not a fan of zimmeresk Music, but Mr.Zimmer showed us all, how modern oder hybrid scoring works... I don´t know,if he is the end result or only a composer, who can only survive with his "little helpers"....
> 
> If you listen to tenet without seeing the movie...difficult



Definitely a departure for Nolan for sure... And as some who really like CN's films I hear that.. But Raymond Scott was doing the same thing back in the 50s, and his history very much involved jazz.


Im just saying that this _trend _really isn't new at all_.._ It goes back as far as the history of synthesis.



(Self-indulgent, nostalgic link added for fun and for anyone who may be unfamiliar with Scott... )


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## Henrik B. Jensen

Kevinside said:


> The Tenet soundtrack is perfect in the movie, but as music itself, its more than underwhelming...


If it's perfect in the movie, that's what matters, isn't it? Soundtracks are meant to go along with the movie they were made for - they are not made for enjoyment as standalone music.


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## muziksculp

hbjdk said:


> If it's perfect in the movie, that's what matters, isn't it? Soundtracks are meant to go along with the movie they were made for - they are not made for enjoyment as standalone music.



Very true. 

But, I really like it when a Soundtrack can do both functions, enhance the movie's ambience/emotional content, and be enjoyable music to listen to without the visual component.


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## Consona

muziksculp said:


> I feel some people look down, and have a snobbish attitude towards any soundtrack that is not purely orchestral


I think you mix two things up.

It's not about orchestral vs electronic/hybrid/whatever.

It's about flat plain Copy/Paste + layering sluggish composing vs composing that engages in all that stuff masters were capable of, i.e. vivid refined musical compositions.

This piece is 100% "hybrid" scoring, synths + orchestra, but you can hear it's a fricking great composition, not some vapid noodling.



You could swap all the orchestral instruments for electronic and it would still be a kick-ass piece of music.


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## muziksculp

Consona said:


> I think you mix two things up.
> 
> It's not about orchestral vs electronic/hybrid/whatever.
> 
> It's about flat plain Copy/Paste + layering sluggish composing vs composing that engages in all that stuff masters were capable of, i.e. vivid refined musical compositions.
> 
> This piece is 100% "hybrid" scoring, synths + orchestra, but you can hear it's a fricking great composition, not some vapid noodling.
> 
> 
> 
> You could swap all the orchestral instruments for electronic and it would still be a kick-ass piece of music.




No, I know exactly what you mean here, and I'm not mixing things up. 

Hybrid Orchestration has it's own qualities as well.. There is the Great, the OK, and the Ugly as well. It's part of the craft of Orchestration. 

It's imho. a complex extension to traditional Acoustic Orchestration, and is quite a complex, and challenging field of modern orchestration. I appreciate a well crafted Hybrid Score, when the non acoustic sources blend in, as if they were natural extensions/complements of their acoustic sources, the resulting sound can be very interesting, and rewarding to hear. New, fresh, and exciting.


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## vitocorleone123

Consona said:


> I think you mix two things up.
> 
> It's not about orchestral vs electronic/hybrid/whatever.
> 
> It's about flat plain Copy/Paste + layering sluggish composing vs composing that engages in all that stuff masters were capable of, i.e. vivid refined musical compositions.
> 
> This piece is 100% "hybrid" scoring, synths + orchestra, but you can hear it's a fricking great composition, not some vapid noodling.
> 
> 
> 
> You could swap all the orchestral instruments for electronic and it would still be a kick-ass piece of music.




Vapid noodling to some may be art to others (or at least a good soundtrack to a movie, in which it almost always plays a supporting role) - it could even become the majority of people. What then, to precious, pre-conceived notions of what qualifies as "good"? At that point, anything orchestral would qualify as vapid noodling.

Movies soundtracks are a restricted and limited genre. Maybe more change and experimentation is needed? Why does a score have to be "hybrid"? Why can't it just be a guitar? Or a synth? Or a digeridoo? Or recordings of engine noises that are then mangled and played through a pipe organ?

Art over time changes because: people. Movie soundtracks aren't some exceptional, rarified art form - it's sound and music in support of a visual medium with an auditory component. The audience will determine if the soundtrack was one that worked. If they care.

Personally, yes, I prefer songs and structure. But I'm not so young anymore.


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## jcrosby

Consona said:


> I think you mix two things up.
> 
> It's not about orchestral vs electronic/hybrid/whatever.
> 
> It's about flat plain Copy/Paste + layering sluggish composing vs composing that engages in all that stuff masters were capable of, i.e. vivid refined musical compositions.
> 
> This piece is 100% "hybrid" scoring, synths + orchestra, but you can hear it's a fricking great composition, not some vapid noodling.
> 
> 
> 
> You could swap all the orchestral instruments for electronic and it would still be a kick-ass piece of music.



Being that this is Goldsmith I know I'm probably setting myself up to step in a big pile of dogshit .

But honestly I just don't find that to be a piece of music that holds its own without the film. I don't hear a refined composition, and the meandering _mickey mouse_ style chromaticism mixed with the rhythms that sound like footsteps isn't refined, it's a rehash of the same scoring devices used over and over in that era.

The Tenet score conveys a lot more anxiety, tension and has a brooding/threatening tone IMO. It also has a much more technological and futuristic tone which I hardly doubt was an unintentional choice..

Maybe it's not your cup of tea which is totally understandable... But a film score is ultimately there to reinforce the film not satisfy the composer's musical whims...


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## Consona

hbjdk said:


> If it's perfect in the movie, that's what matters, isn't it? Soundtracks are meant to go along with the movie they were made for - they are not made for enjoyment as standalone music.


I can imagine way less boringly repetitive music that would enhance the drama tenfolds, so no, it's not perfect for the movie.

When you put flat repetitive music into a dramatic film, it hardly reflects what's happening in the film, unless the scenes are flat, boring and repetitive.


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## Henrik B. Jensen

Consona said:


> I can imagine way less boringly repetitive music that would enhance the drama tenfolds, so no, it's not perfect for the movie.


I never said it was. I merely quoted @Kevinside who wrote the soundtrack was perfect in the movie. I haven't seen the movie, so I wouldn't know.


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## Duncan Krummel

I only ask myself two questions when assessing music: do I like it?, and does it achieve what it’s trying to do?

Good and Bad have no place in discussions on art. That is my honest opinion, and I don’t expect it to resonate with everyone. That said, I stand by it, and teach all of my students to approach it the same way.

I don’t have to enjoy a work of art to feel that it was well crafted and served its purpose well. Likewise, I don’t have to think the work of art fulfilled its purpose well at all to enjoy it.

The broader point is this; people will create the art they want to, and they should. Don’t like it? That’s okay! Acknowledge that and move on. Those artists will continue to create their art whether or not you appreciate it, and they will lose no sleep with the latter.


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## GNP

Consona said:


> And this is a painting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those examples are not the Tenet level crap (that Expanse track was way better), but why has the music become so flat and featureless?
> 
> The B-est 1950s horror flick and ambientiest 1960s twilight zone music is way more interesting and musical than this.
> 
> 
> It irks me I must bitch about nearly everything, but so much of the current music is so meh.
> 
> Everyone who can draw a midi note and load up a synth in their DAW is a composer now.



You're missing the point here.

Throw everything about the composer in yourself out the window.

Watch the movie/story (whatever that may be) again, and see how a certain approach to a score feeds it.

I was watching this movie "Unhinged" (however people make of this movie), and it features a gone guy who loses it with society. What's the score? Simply lots of "copy and paste" relentless thumps. No melody, no harmony, nothing. Is it boring by itself? Yes. Does it sound like a guy who has lost all sense of meaning in his life, and now he's just going to kill any mofo who crosses his path? *Yes. -------------*and to me, that's fine enough.



There's room for all kinds of approaches to different movies thankfully, quite a few which you would like.

But in filmscoring, anything can go.


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## Consona

jcrosby said:


> But honestly I just don't find that to be a piece of music that holds its own without the film. I don't hear a refined composition, and the meandering _mickey mouse_ style chromaticism mixed with the rhythms that sound like footsteps isn't refined, it's a rehash of the same scoring devices used over and over in that era.


And Williams is just a rehash of Holst, Wagner and Korngold.


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## GNP

hbjdk said:


> If it's perfect in the movie, that's what matters, isn't it? Soundtracks are meant to go along with the movie they were made for - they are not made for enjoyment as standalone music.



Correct - many often forget this. A cook may be very good at mingling at the dinner table; but at the end of the day, if he/her doesn't cook, fuck him/her. There are plenty of socialites out there who are good at mingling.


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## muziksculp

Hi,

It would be interesting to see what are some of the Hybrid-Style Soundtracks you are fancying these days.

You can post a Youtube version of it on this thread, so we can get to share some of the Hybrid-Style scores we fancy. I'm especially interested in the newer, more recent released Hybrid-Scores, not just the older 80's/90's. etc. 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## jcrosby

Unapologetically in love Westworld. I think he recurring theme below fits the story brilliantly. It's mysterious but delicate, sad with a touch of hope, etc... It fits the duality of the story really well...







I still think Fury Road is one of the grittiest action scores of the past decade. This Cue is relentless. Just when you think it's going to let up it picks up, each time getting even grittier than before.







Probably a favorite of many around here... The entire score is fantastic. I couldn't count the number of times I've just sat and listened to it end to end:


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## Dietz

The score of "Interstellar" is - well - interstellar. 8-)


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## Henrik B. Jensen

That Fury Road track gives me a headache with those repetitive, overly loud drums. Not a fan.


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## ProfoundSilence

These composers aren't writing this stuff for their own ego - they are writing it to enhance the picture which is what they are hired to do.

Sometimes what fits the picture is not going to line up with music that stands well on it's own. These days we've associated an orchestra to less modern atmospheres - so while it still might be one of the driving parts of a score involving fantasy and scifi - or cartoons, ect - things that involve current time/modern atmospheres revolve around what people today actually listen to, our reliance on technology - ect. Even a modern film/series that takes place in some rural area without a whole lot of technology probably features many acoustic and simple instruments - while some inner city crime drama might incorporate more synth beds, pulses to reflect the pace and vibe of the surroundings.

These film composers are still focusing on the same things stravinksy would have... what is the metaphor?

Zimmer talks about why he featured the organ so heavily on interstellar, how pieces like the dream collapsing is representative of the original song they listened to to wake up as it's slowed down and warped in interstellar - and how the ostinatos in the dark night were this driving persistent force while the joker was a distorted string that kept being tightened but never quite snapped... these are all metaphor - and all super effective.

Sure zimmer has a knack for buying up talent, but ultimately his vision for how the score should work is why he gets hired, and why his work is effective. This is a very different medium than impressionalists but the same concept - so the need to disrespect it because the note choices are more fundemental while the sound design/instrumentation does the heavy lifting is without warrant. They aren't setting out to write an orchestral opus - they are setting out to capture and enhance what the director is going for.


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## jcrosby

ProfoundSilence said:


> Sure zimmer has a knack for buying up talent, but ultimately his vision for how the score should work is why he gets hired, and why his work is effective.


Your whole post is really on point, this sentence is a great summary though... If someone hires you to score a film they don't hire you to write music that satisfies your ego. They hire you to compose music that helps tell the story...

I'm sure we all have scores we love, but feel _could have _been even better... In reality none of these decisions are in the hands of the composer... Be it the director or music supervisor; any score is a compromise between the vision of the composer and the reality of whichever power(s) decide what makes the cut and what doesn't...


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## ProfoundSilence

jcrosby said:


> Your whole post is really on point, this sentence is a great summary though... If someone hires you to score a film they don't hire you to write music that satisfies your ego. They hire you to compose music that helps tell the story...
> 
> I'm sure we all have scores we love, but feel _could have _been even better... In reality none of these decisions are in the hands of the composer... Be it the director or music supervisor; any score is a compromise between the vision of the composer and the reality of whichever power(s) decide what makes the cut and what doesn't...



Then ofcourse you have people like horner, who talked about how back in bach/mozarts day - you composers for the church because they were the people with money to hire the orchestra to play with - and how he does film composing because it's the people with the money to hire the orchestra for him to play with. He also gripes about how sometimes there would be directors that would basically ask hiim to come as close as legally possible to plagarizing a peice and whatnot - but he saw film composing as his opportunity to do what the great orchestral composers before him did. 

I'd imagine JW probably feels similiarly - but they've proved themselves in their fields, and only take jobs that let them do the kind of stuff they want. Some people(like zimmer) take projects they want to do as well, and maybe traditional orchestral scoring isn't a deal breaker.


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## Consona

This ego argument is nonsense.

Williams did not score Star Wars the way he did because of his ego, but because he was able to compose that kind of rich vivid music. Same with Goldsmith and his Star Treks, etc.

These guys could weave the composition and harmonies the way these modern guys can't, that has nothing to do with ego, but everything to do with craft, skill, knowledge, etc.


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## ProfoundSilence

Consona said:


> This ego argument is nonsense.
> 
> Williams did not score Star Wars the way he did because of his ego, but because he was able to compose that kind of rich vivid music. Same with Goldsmith and his Star Treks, etc.
> 
> These guys could weave the composition and harmonies the way these modern guys can't, that has nothing to do with ego, but everything to do with craft, skill, knowledge, etc.




I probably couldn't fletch my own arrows like my ancestors but I'd sure as shit win in a fight with a pistol. It's about what works and what doesn't.... what the market actually wants and what it doesn't. The goal of a production is not art, it's money... if it's effective at entertainment then it's been done correctly. It doesn't care if there is any sort of artistic integrity - if the composer brought anything new to the table, if they hummed it on the way out of the theater, or if it's worth listening to outside the context of the film/show. Further more, you don't have to agree with my position - the market already does. 

If you disagree with this, you'll have to have the capital to invest in these shows to push what you want. Maybe it's time someone remind you that people are not listening to this music because it's music - the visual product(be it the game or the film/show) is the single primary goal. People have had no issue with non-catchy tunes in some of the most successful products. You think the people who watch the Office care about the music in it? You think like people play fortnite with the music on 80% of the time? You need a reality check - music for the sake of music exists, and the average person is 100% okay completely seperating the two. Almost all of my childhood friends play world of warcraft intermittently, but 0 of them know anything about the score, because they all play with the music turned all the way off. No one wants to hear the wrath of khan ost over their tiktoks any more than they do over their latest netflix binge.


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## GNP

Consona said:


> This ego argument is nonsense.
> 
> Williams did not score Star Wars the way he did because of his ego, but because he was able to compose that kind of rich vivid music. Same with Goldsmith and his Star Treks, etc.
> 
> These guys could weave the composition and harmonies the way these modern guys can't, that has nothing to do with ego, but everything to do with craft, skill, knowledge, etc.



I understand you miss those scores. I do too. But contrary to what you're saying, I know of composers who can write just as well as some of them, but in quite alot of their scores by 2000s standards, have been very minimal. Why? Because how the audience perceives how the score spoonfeeds their emotions during a film, evolves. As time goes by, spoonfeeding with sweeping music is less and less required.

Listen, filmscoring isn't for you, because you're *adamant on an aesthetic that's only part of the function of what it does.* You're ignoring its MOST IMPORTANT (lol) _functions_ for the sake of whatever aesthetic you're in love with. You should just listen to music alone and forget this whole filmscoring thing.

(By the way, don't feel bad like you're some old relic from the past, because I also know of other people who are into microtonality as an aesthetic, but they also ignore the functions of what filmscoring does. They just love microtonality just because it sounds different, but that's about it. The bottomline is - in filmscoring, aesthetics alone are not enough a currency. It's HOW you apply those aesthetics *in how it functions for the story*)


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## GNP

jcrosby said:


> If someone hires you to score a film they don't hire you to write music that satisfies your ego. They hire you to compose music that helps tell the story...
> 
> I'm sure we all have scores we love, but feel _could have _been even better... In reality none of these decisions are in the hands of the composer... Be it the director or music supervisor; any score is a compromise between the vision of the composer and the reality of whichever power(s) decide what makes the cut and what doesn't...



Exactly. It is a collaboration, things end up on the cutting floor. They also hire you because you're okay to work with, and not just because you're good. Imagine writing your ultimate opus to a scene, and your heart is one with it. Suddenly, boom, the director or some fucking editor decides to either cut off that scene, or tell you that your music is wrong. Do you try to see why they're saying such? Or squeal like a baby just because your precious opus is ruined?


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## muziksculp

Hi,

Here are some Hybrid Style Soundtracks that I really enjoy listening to. I will be adding more to this list. Here is the first one.

Hope you enjoy listening to them as well 

Soundtrack : *The Martian* By : Harry Gregson Williams

Sample Track :


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## Tice

Oh, the Martian, I love that score too! And it really is the perfect movie for a hybrid score imho.


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## muziksculp

Here is another one I like.

Soundtrack : *Ralph Breaks The Internet* By : Henry Jackman

Sample Track :


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## muziksculp

Soundtrack : *Ad Astra* By : Max Richter, Lorne Balfe, and Nils Frahm.


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## muziksculp

Soundtrack : *The Foreigner *By: Cliff Martinez


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## muziksculp

Soundtrack : *Inferno* By : Hans Zimmer


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## muziksculp

Soundtrack : *Passengers *By: Thomas Newmann


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## muziksculp

Soundtrack : *Jason Bourne* By: John Powell & David Buckley


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## muziksculp

Soundtrack : : *Legion *By: Jeff Russo


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## muziksculp

Soundtrack : *The Emoji Movie* By: Patrick Doyle


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## Greg

We've spent centuries using those 12 keys and could benefit a lot from seeing what lies in between the notes. Electronic and sound design elements are so useful for creating ambiguity and unique textures that might sound just totally wrong on acoustic instruments


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## InLight-Tone

I welcome these new sounds and directions. I personally can't even listen to "straight" classical music anymore, it bores me. Then again I love all the hard nu metal, so what do I know?...


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## muziksculp

I also love listening to mostly synth produced soundtracks. With no Orchestral/Acoustic instruments mixed in. Except for Perc.

The soundtrack examples I posted are mostly Hybrid Scores, meaning a mix of orchestra, synth, and sound design elements.

Many of the new TV series scores, also Game scores, coming out these days are a mix of the hybrid, or synthetic-w/sound design types.


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## Dylanguitar

I love the soundtrack for Tenet and I haven't even seen the movie. In fact I'm so into the score that I'm afraid to see the movie in that it might taint my enjoyment of it. I like the fact that it doesn't lean too heavily on the orchestral vibe. I mean it's there, but it doesn't sound like a J. Williams score with some synths thrown in. For me it's a very well constructed soundtrack from a sound design perspective. Certain tracks I can almost visualize what's happening in the movie, just based off the title. 747 for example.
Anyway, looking forward to checking out other's suggestions too.


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## KEM

My favorite film score of all time is TENET, that should tell you everything you need to know…


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## KEM

Dylanguitar said:


> I love the soundtrack for Tenet and I haven't even seen the movie. In fact I'm so into the score that I'm afraid to see the movie in that it might taint my enjoyment of it. I like the fact that it doesn't lean too heavily on the orchestral vibe. I mean it's there, but it doesn't sound like a J. Williams score with some synths thrown in. For me it's a very well constructed soundtrack from a sound design perspective. Certain tracks I can almost visualize what's happening in the movie, just based off the title. 747 for example.
> Anyway, looking forward to checking out other's suggestions too.



Watch it!! You’ll gain a much greater appreciation for the music when you’re given its context, and TENET is an amazing film, I saw it 15 times in theaters!! The prologue is my favorite example of music/film together, it’s literally perfect


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## Troels Folmann

Interesting how the waters divide over this subject. 

I think we sometimes forget that soundtracks are in the service of the movies and not the other way around. Whatever works best in the given situation. The pendulum keeps swinging back and forth between orchestra and synthesis. 

The 80s is a great example of period where both thrived from Williams to Goldsmith. A tradition elegantly upheld by all the composers in this thread. But at the end of the day soundtrack is there to serve as the invisible emotional glue between the movie and the spectator. In its perfect form, it bypasses logic and goes straight to the heart. 

I want my soaring Williams strings for ET and Schindlers. I want my savage orchestra and synths for Batman. I want my arps and rock for Tenet. Each in service of the movie. I want my clocks and shepards for Dunkirk. Spanking EDM for Mortal Combat. NuMetal for Doom.

The trends are evershifting. There were periods where themes were cool. There were periods where they got in the way of the movie and more became a symbol of the composer's ego. Then choirs were cool. Then they were not. Now they are back.

To me, the more interesting question is what is next? What is truly gonna break new ground? 

Is there a third axis for the pendulum to swing?


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## ryans

Troels Folmann said:


> I think we sometimes forget that soundtracks are in the service of the movies and not the other way around.


Absolutely. I would go as far to say a film composer is more filmmaker than musician. This doesn't the music can't be enjoyable on it's own but I would consider this a bonus. 

The film's needs must always be met first, without compromise.


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## Dr.Quest

muziksculp said:


>



I really like this piece. The whole sound track works so well with the picture. Those guys usually knock it out of the park.


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## GMT

GNP said:


> Why? Because how the audience perceives how the score spoonfeeds their emotions during a film, evolves. As time goes by, spoonfeeding with sweeping music is less and less required.


This is a very important point. People have become more sophisticated when it comes to having the music 'tell' them how to feel. I watched a Harry Gregson-Williams event where he detailed how Ben Affleck had told him he didn't want much music (for the Town, I believe) because he didn't want the emotions of the music to be too overt. The picture told the story and the music was barely noticeable, but it is still a very affecting movie.

One only has to watch some movies from the 50s and even later when, for example, something sad happens and immediately, a minor key string swell pummels you into submission. It is almost laughable.

I can't remember the movie - perhaps Heat - but one piece of music that stood out for me during a heist scene was a one note tap with maybe a triangle. Very powerful, but you can't hum it.

EDIT - The piece I was thinking of is called "Force Marker" by Brian Eno. A little busier than I remember, but yep, just one note. Very powerful and it made the bank robbery scene absolutely compelling.


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## Karl Feuerstake

It is entirely possible to make an audience have a compelling emotional experience from just imagery and narrative alone. It is even possible to create these emotions through editing, such as through the Kuleshov effect. So film music is always something extra on top, a little bit of hand-holding, and it becomes that no matter what you do. As soon as you add in a non-diegetic sound to the visual experience (even if it doesn't have a clear pitch), the audience begins to interpret it and draw meaning from it. It's inevitable, Mr. Anderson. Now if you have that layer of non-diegetic sound change over time and evolve, it begins to tell a story of its own, and develop meaning alongside the visuals.

Me? I like to have my hand held, so long as the person leading me through the journey has an incredible amount of musical creativity (especially orchestral.) Hans Zimmer doesn't like to squeeze hard, but he sure likes to go to wild and loud places, and that's pretty entertaining to me. John Williams squeezes hard, but then he likes to show his mastery of styles from past eras, filled with energy and intrigue.

Really ambient, atmospheric sound design scores are kind of neat for the sake of exploring texture, but to me, many of them sound like they all could have been made by the same artist. Perhaps this is utterly unfair, but if you're sustaining long evolving drones then that technique is somewhat universal, isn't it? Using the metaphor from above, it's like having different people holding your hand at the same grip strength and then going to the same alien world, over and over. Maybe one day it's sunny and the next it's a purple thunderstorm, but it's still the same planet. But again that's just me and I don't want to sound like I'm judging others for enjoying their experiences. Perhaps the feeling of going somewhere alien is amazing enough!


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