# When to use 7/8 Time Signature



## nickmurraymusic (Mar 13, 2019)

Do you guys know when and how to use odd time signatures? If you're just starting out, this might be daunting. I did a quick video demonstration on when to use 7/8 for film/tv music. Hope this is helpful for someone out there!


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## Ben H (Mar 13, 2019)

A good time to use 7/8 is when the director says it needs to sound "more Yanni"


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## nickmurraymusic (Mar 13, 2019)

Ben H said:


> A good time to use 7/8 is when the director says "it needs to sound more Yanni"


LOL did he use it a lot?? I wasnt aware of that!


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## Ben H (Mar 13, 2019)

Yes, a lot of his music is in 7/8. Apparently it is a common "greek thing."

I'm not hating on Yanni, BTW. I am a big fan of his music.


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## gregh (Mar 13, 2019)

i dont really get this at all - there are famous pop songs in all sorts of time sigs - you just use whatever time sig the piece is in when you think of it. There is nothing about 7/8 or 11/4 that makes it necessarily "edgy" or not
eg 

or this classic


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## Tfis (Mar 13, 2019)

nickmurraymusic said:


> Do you guys know when and how to use odd time signatures?


Yes


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## Richard Wilkinson (Mar 13, 2019)

There's some great stuff in a recent indie-electronic soundtrack - I _think _it's You Were Never Really Here by Jonny Greenwood - which is a really simple, lofi electro production but it's in an odd time sig. It's a hypnotic, slow-lurch of an effect which conveys that sense of 'not quite as expected' brilliantly.

(also, stop stealing writer shares from new composers)


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 13, 2019)

Oh man, you can do some absolutely killer percussive stuff with 7/8. I highly recommend experimenting yourself...in the early days of midi I would grab some generic Rock drumbeat midi (most of course are in 4/4) and then fool with it until I made a smashing, Apocalypse Elements-rocketed action cue in 7/8.

Strongly recommend trying it. You might come up with something entirely your own, in a relatively difficult signature...how cool is that?


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## Michel Simons (Mar 13, 2019)

I agree with @gregh. It's almost never a conscious decision to use an odd time signature. Being exposed to a lot of music with these sort of time signatures probably helps.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 13, 2019)

Exercises in different time signatures can really bring your compositional skills to a new level.

But then, this is coming from someone who has the luxury of being able to compose and do such exercises practically all day, seven days a week. Probably not an option for a person rushed for time.


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## anjwilson (Mar 13, 2019)

Ben H said:


> Yes, a lot of his music is in 7/8. Apparently it is a common "greek thing."
> 
> I'm not hating on Yanni, BTW. I am a big fan of his music.



It's a broader Balkan thing, though it's not limited to just 7/8 and 7/4. Many of their unequal meters are made of the free mixture of 2s and 3s (7 is three beats of unequal length, usually 2+2+3 or 3+2+2).

When I taught ear training, I used to finish a unit on unequal meters with a Bulgarian song "Sedi Donka," which is "in 25" (7+7+11, which breaks down to 3+2+2 + 3+2+2 + 2+2+3+2+2):


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## ceemusic (Mar 13, 2019)

Bill Chase used all types of sig. changes in his music, very challenging material. Then there's playing over the bar like this 4/4 F.Z. piece. I use time signatures in writing as part of the creative process rather than 'when to use.'

Still one could use time signatures for creating certain emotions (tension, anxiety, peaceful, relaxed) into the composition. Remember Pink Floyd's 'Money' is 7/8.. I think most people find it natural & don't even notice or think of it as odd timing.


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## Richard Wilkinson (Mar 13, 2019)

Also this:  - 4/4, then 7/8


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 13, 2019)

Richard Wilkinson said:


> Also this:  - 4/4, then 7/8




Is that Brian drumming, too? Like this one!


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 13, 2019)

I bring out the 7/8 or 5/4 when I need to do battle.


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## RobbertZH (Mar 13, 2019)

When to use 7/8 Time Signature?

When you make symphonic rock or progressive rock. 
Those bands in the seventies used uncommon time signatures all the time.

These rhythms (with drums, bass, etc) can provide lots of energy and excitement.
They sound "logical" on the surface, but I sometimes find it rather difficult to beat/clap with some of those. 

Take for example to "the Fifth Season" (probably in 5/4 given the song title) from the Belgian symphonic rock band "Machiavel". Fast forward to around 4:10 minutes and try to clap the rhythm. I always fail. But I love the song nevertheless.



Or another nice example is "Tanz und Tod" from the German symphonic rock band "Anyone's Daughter" (probably unknown in english-speaking countries):



I did not know those uncommon time signatures are still used today but in other music genres like movie scores.


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## JT (Mar 13, 2019)

ceemusic said:


> Bill Chase used all types of sig. changes in his music, very challenging material.


 I think you meant Don Ellis, not Chase.

Ellis scored films late in his career, most notably The French Connection. The main theme is in 7/8, but the genesis of where the theme came from is, I think absolutely brilliant. Gene Hackman's character is a cop who's trying to catch a drug smuggler, the drugs hidden in a car. Hackman disassembles the car trying to find the drugs. Frustrated, he takes a reciprocating saw and cuts the rivets off of the rocker panel, exposing the hidden drugs.

But the cool part is, the sound and rhythm that the reciprocating saw made as it was cutting, was in 7/8, and became the rhythmic motif for this film.

I didn't notice this when I first saw the film, but after I was familiar with the score, I almost fell out of my chair when I heard this scene. The music world lost an extremely talented musician and composer when Don Ellis died.


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## ceemusic (Mar 14, 2019)

Yes, Don Ellis! although both were amazing.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Mar 14, 2019)

Odd meters are great for film.
The fact that they end their cycles on the upbeat of an expected 4/4 or 6/8 or 12/8 (etc...) contribute to the effect of never quite rhythmically "resolving", adding motion.
They also add excitement by getting away from our familiar western habits (4/4... 3/4)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 14, 2019)

To me the question is like when to use an F# - not the key, I mean the note.



ceemusic said:


> Bill Chase



You're at the top of my grocery list, you're US.D.A. certified beef uh-huh huh.


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## mixtur (Mar 16, 2019)

There is a lot out there but my favorite is Sting Steven days https://g.co/kgs/VyDB4G

Sting has quite a few in odd signature btw

I just love when it’s an odd signature but you don’t notice it right away


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## Illico (Mar 16, 2019)

hum...I would say, all of them, especially for film scoring synchronization. But votes for 5/4 and 7/8 for moving effect and 6/8 for dancing.


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## mikeh-375 (Mar 16, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> To me the question is like when to use an F# - not the key, I mean the note.



Nick, I only used black notes if they where paying enough and 7/8 when they couldn't afford 4/4


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 17, 2019)

A more serious answer, which is probably obvious to most people here: the thing with "odd" time signatures is to avoid the trap of pounding out "1" on every bar. Same with triple and quadruple meter, of course.


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## dgburns (Mar 17, 2019)

For me, 5/4, 6/8, 7/8, 11/8 are really fun.

For me, 5/4 always sounds a bit bouncy, but maybe it’s because I like it with swing. I use 5/8 alot too in the same way but faster. The LOTR uses 5/4 during the battle scene in the last movie. Great stuff. Epic.

6/8 sound historical and purposeful to me, like marching or travelling. I like 4+2 because otherwise 3+3 sounds like 3/8.

7/8 is like dystopia for time. It’s 8/8 on a diet, like the record skips. More specifically, I tend to use 4/8 + 3/8 bit that’s maybe just habit.

11/8 I use when I want to get crazy. Like 3+3+3+2 and the last two are anticipating the cycle start. I love 11/8 but I find it hard to work with image due to the longer cycle length, so I find myself using more pickup measures to make things work to image. I also find myself not using too much melody with 11/8, but maybe that’s because I haven’t worked with it all that much.

Ya, I hear you, now you can go on with your life now that I said all that


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## MartinH. (Mar 17, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> A more serious answer, which is probably obvious to most people here: the thing with "odd" time signatures is to avoid the trap of pounding out "1" on every bar. Same with triple and quadruple meter, of course.



As someone to whom none of this is obvious: what do you mean by that, and why?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 17, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> As someone to whom none of this is obvious: what do you mean by that, and why?



Well, it can get tedious.

If you listen to Dave Brubeck's Take Five, for example, he does repeat the 3+2 ostinato over and over, but the melody is 4-bar phrases, so it's not tedious (in fact I still love that album!). But just repeating a 1-bar groove over and over - which emphasizing "1" on every bar tends to encourage - can be boring.

Can be boring - I'm not saying it always is in all contexts.

Really, the first thing you notice (or that I noticed) about odd time signatures is that they don't sound odd at all. So that alone won't make music unique.


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## Soundhound (Mar 17, 2019)

When playing the intro to Whipping Post.

Edit: sorry that's 11/8


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## P3TAAL (Apr 28, 2019)

I tend to play what ever comes to mind then i check the time signature after. I don't let myself be restricted by time signatures


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## TimCox (May 2, 2019)

I use 7/8 when I want my drummer to argue about whether it's a 3/8 to 4/8 or 4/8 to 3/8 feel


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## AR (May 2, 2019)

I somehow muss the 10/8 which is a pretty driving forward rhythm. DiDaDaDiDaDaDiDaDiDa....


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## The Darris (May 3, 2019)

All of them are great. 

When film scoring, I've found 7/8 to be like the best when needing to be flexible, especially in action sequences. Why?

Well, on this recent project I am working on. I challenged myself to avoid having any type of tempo changes whenever possible. Now, this doesn't always work because there are scenes where the natural pacing of a scene is rather slow and goes into a faster paced feel (ie; the transitions into action sequences). In most cases, you could simply choose a tempo that works well in both half time and normal time so you can write elongated phrases at the faster tempo and then change to the correct feel without changing tempo. This is just all technique at this point though. Either way can work. 

Why is 7/8, to me, the most flexible? Because you are dealing with the absence and/or addition of that 1/8 note duration. That one 1/8 note is what separates us from a straight time feel of 3/4(6/8) or 4/4. That means you have options when needing to hit your marks without adjusting tempo. How you musically frame your phrases is what matters in terms of keeping the music sounding like makes sense though, haha. 

Now, because I consider 7/8 to be the most flexible, I use is sparingly. I will write some sequences in 7/8 because the sense of urgency you can get from that time signature is great. It's especially fun to do a variation on the themes of the film that are in 3 or 4 and rewrite them in 7/8 too. However, sometimes you just need to keep that straight time feel thus 7/8 time signatures can come in handy as those "clutch" saving transitional measures that you drop in to hit those marks. Again, action sequences and scenes in general flow like a piece of music. They have a development and a climax and tons of visual transitions to set up cadences (visually speaking). For me, it's not difficult to figure out those key moments but it certainly took me sometime to develop a sense of how to musically hit those marks naturally to a set tempo. 

That is why I find 7/8 to be the most flexible (and forgiving) meter to work in. You could make the case for 5/8 or 9/8 too but 7/8 is the only one that is 1/8 from both 3/4 and 4/4 which are arguable the most used meters out there that the masses understand and feel naturally. 

Best,

Chris


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