# I did a little attempt to do a teaser trailer piece.......



## Dan Mott (Oct 29, 2010)

http://soundcloud.com/destaana/radio-intro

I don't write this stuff, but I always wanted to try and do the whole typical spiccato strings BANG BANG stuff...... so here it is.

I don't like the mix, prehaps you might, but I'd like you to comment on that one so I know where I've gone wrong in my attemtp.

I also know it's not so dynamic. I did this on purpose because I'm going to use it for an epic BED for a radio show podcast I'm doing and it will have talking over the top, so as you all know... in radio, nothing is really dynamic at all because the purpose of in your face needs to be serverd.

Happy 30 seconds everyone.


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## rabiang (Oct 29, 2010)

drums higher, no?


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## Dan Mott (Oct 29, 2010)

rabiang @ Sat Oct 30 said:


> drums higher, no?




I agree. More bass. Yes?


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## rabiang (Oct 29, 2010)

think so. i can check on my spektrum analyzer if you dont have too.


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## Dan Mott (Oct 29, 2010)

rabiang @ Sat Oct 30 said:


> think so. i can check on my spektrum analyzer if you dont have too.




Errrr........ What?

Why would you use a spectrum. I was wondering how it was like to your ears.


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## rabiang (Oct 29, 2010)

u never use a SA to check your output? ok, i need to sometimes to check for deep freq.


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## RiffWraith (Oct 29, 2010)

Sounds good. In a general sense, I wouldn't make the percussion louder, it needs more layers. Adding more layers will bring it up a bit in volume, yes, but it will also fill out the sound, which (perc-wise) is a bit thin now. Also, I would add a tad more verb to the strings.

However, if you are looking to have this as underscore to voice, you may want to leave it as-is. 

Cheers.


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## dannthr (Oct 29, 2010)

It would be easier to understand how to assist you if we had the VO along with it.

But in principle, just give yourself room for the voice and have the other things around it.

So you could easily add high strings and more bass. Just push it up where the voice isn't.


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## Dan Mott (Oct 29, 2010)

Thanks everyone.

I suppose It does sound good enough to sit behind a vocal, but IMO I think it sounds terrible as a teaser trailer peace. I don't knwo why, but maybe it's the hits I'm using. My bass actually dissapeared when I boosted about 4dB on the tom hit which gave a nice sound, but then I layered it was the trailer toms and it just left even though I hipassed the trailer toms to about 70Hz or so.

Maybe someone could point out what I did wrong. To me it sounds weak and it doesn't sound very uplifting. This happends alot when I'm trying out new things. Today was my first try to write a trailer song and I always felt that I had to turn the track up which generally means you're doing something wrong. I shouldn't have to turn the track up to make it feel powerful. It should sound powerful at a listening level.

I just don't understand what must be done. Every mix I listen to by someone else sounds great with nice bass and such, especially TJ which I referenced to his track to get an idea on how I might write a boomy trailer song. I know it just doesn't have that sound, don't you?

I tried layering hits from every single library I have and it just didn't do it for me. The hits in TJs tracks are great, but maybe they are real which is why they sound much better than what I'm doing. Anyway.

Feel free to comment on what I said.


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## rabiang (Oct 29, 2010)

can you zip the stems and the midi (midi file), and send to me? it would be fun to try to mix it.

it will prob end up worse than yours, but it could be a fun experiment.


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## Dan Mott (Oct 29, 2010)

rabiang @ Sat Oct 30 said:


> can you zip the stems and the midi (midi file), and send to me? it would be fun to try to mix it.
> 
> it will prob end up worse than yours, but it could be a fun experiment.





That would be cool acually. I'll get the stems ready for anyone who'd like to mix their version.

I'll post back here soon.


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## RiffWraith (Oct 29, 2010)

Check your pms.


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## Dan Mott (Oct 29, 2010)

http://www.mediafire.com/?blg9rcljfzi2bsr

This link is for anyone who'd like the files to mix.

Would be interesting, but it's there on the table if yoy guys want to.


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## rabiang (Oct 30, 2010)

here's a fast and furious mix. focused on creating energy, as that was one issue. 

http://soundcloud.com/rabiang/teaser-1/s-SdVFT


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## Dan Mott (Oct 30, 2010)

rabiang @ Sat Oct 30 said:


> here's a fast and furious mix. focused on creating energy, as that was one issue.
> 
> http://soundcloud.com/rabiang/teaser-1/s-SdVFT



Hey.

That is really awesome man. I loved it!


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## Lex (Oct 30, 2010)

Dan-Jay @ Sat Oct 30 said:


> I just don't understand what must be done. Every mix I listen to by someone else sounds great with nice bass and such, especially TJ which I referenced to his track to get an idea on how I might write a boomy trailer song. I know it just doesn't have that sound, don't you?



my 2c..

...maybe its down to orchestration?
I find it helpful to listen to orchestra only stems, mute perc, mute synths, hits and swooshes...Your orchestration and writing alone has to carry the energy and movement you are aiming for. If it doesn't it will work even less when you add perc and synths.

In this case you have one cello line and one viola line, playing very tame, mid-force.
Now, you add big a ss percussion to this and they just wont sound that huge...then you add a very harmonic rich bass synth/pad to it that is trying to compensate the mix for everything else thats not there...

If you take this approach you will see that you either need to beef up the orchestration to match the force of perc and bass synth , or deflate perc and synth to match the lonely cello and viola.

It all depends on what you want the track to do, but in most cases an orchestra track (trailer or not) needs to do that when it's stripped down...if it doesn't re think and re orchestrate...or change the way line is played...the simple staccato line can be played in many different ways, find the one that comes closest to what you have in your head.


thanks for sharing stems..

alex


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## rabiang (Oct 30, 2010)

i do agree, but rem its a teaser, cant be too complex. also, dan is 20 years old. i think its pretty damn good for that age. and he is really making an effort to learn.


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## Dan Mott (Oct 30, 2010)

Lex @ Sat Oct 30 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Sat Oct 30 said:
> 
> 
> > I just don't understand what must be done. Every mix I listen to by someone else sounds great with nice bass and such, especially TJ which I referenced to his track to get an idea on how I might write a boomy trailer song. I know it just doesn't have that sound, don't you?
> ...




Hi. I kind of knew exactly what I wanted to do with this track though. I wanted the staccato fast style and the some massive percussion to go along with it to make it intense.

Funny thing is, that's the loudest the staccatos can go on HS, I cannot make the dynamic velocity go any louder and this is the issue with alot of libraries I have. It seems alot of libraries have nice low to mid velocity, but when you go to the highest, it still sounds like they are hitting the drum half hardly and it's very annoying.

This is, if I lower the perc dynamic, then the track just won't sound huge all together, not to mention if I go lower in the velocities of the drum, it will sound like they are hitting them with no effort.

Not to blame it all on the libraries, but I do come across alot of stuff like this when the highest you play still doesn't sound like you are playing it at the loudest you can and anything lower from the highest is just pointless for poweful tracks. I need to find a crap loud more drums to make this come out a little more.

I'm fine with the instrumentation and arrangement, it's what I felt it should be for this type of thing, something quite simple, but effective.

Thank you so much for the information. I'm getting alot of insights on this forum. I have a question though, what did you mean by this - *"you add a very harmonic rich bass synth/pad to it that is trying to compensate the mix for everything else thats not there..."?*


The strings part is exactly what I wanted in my head. Wouldn't you and everyone agree that we shouldn't have to change our arrangement because of this sounds? This means the HS is basically composing for me, rather than me telling it what I want, aswell as the drums too. Everything I did in this track is what I wanted, but wasn't working and I know why now because you and others pointed out what was wrong.


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## Lex (Oct 30, 2010)

rabiang @ Sat Oct 30 said:


> i do agree, but rem its a teaser, cant be too complex. also, dan is 20 years old. i think its pretty damn good for that age. and he is really making an effort to learn.



...and he is doing a great job...Sorry if my post sounds like a critique, I simple tried to share all I know about this..

alex


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## Lex (Oct 30, 2010)

Dan-Jay @ Sat Oct 30 said:


> Thank you so much for the information. I'm getting alot of insights on this forum. I have a question though, what did you mean by this - *"you add a very harmonic rich bass synth/pad to it that is trying to compensate the mix for everything else thats not there..."?*
> 
> 
> The strings part is exactly what I wanted in my head. Wouldn't you and everyone agree that we shouldn't have to change our arrangement because of this sounds? This means the HS is basically composing for me, rather than me telling it what I want, aswell as the drums too. Everything I did in this track is what I wanted, but wasn't working and I know why now because you and others pointed out what was wrong.



Bass/Pad thing....what I meant is that maybe you can try to do what your pad is doing with the rest of the orchestra...contrabass, tuba, bass bone, contra bassoon, etc...then add a very deep bass synth pad that covers the sub spectrum that orchestra can't reach ?

About samples writing for you...well, lets say you had a recording session and on the spot you realize that the brass guys you got simply cant keep in tune playing in the key you wrote...would you transpose the piece or record with brass out of tune knowing that "it wasn't your fault"? 

alex


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## Dan Mott (Oct 30, 2010)

Lex @ Sat Oct 30 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Sat Oct 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you so much for the information. I'm getting alot of insights on this forum. I have a question though, what did you mean by this - *"you add a very harmonic rich bass synth/pad to it that is trying to compensate the mix for everything else thats not there..."?*
> ...




Ok, sounds good, I'll try a contra and the bass pad. Good idea.

If the brass couldn't keep up, I'd go to my power and all my heart to find brass players who can play what I wrote.

You know something that hurts me deeply? Is when you have something you love in your head, you find the best samples you have and it end up not sounding good. One thing I hate about samples is that they can write for you sometimes and that's not what I'm about. However, I try so hard to make work arounds. It would just be dissapointing for me to have to change this arrangement that I had in my head because the samples don't sound like they are playing loud enough.


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## rabiang (Oct 30, 2010)

in this sense, music is not theory, its empirical work. it doesnt really matter if it was right in the head. and the sound is always telling the truth so to speak. 

when i did my mix, if i had the midi i would have made other instruments play as well when the beats enter. 2 instruments and a bass cant really give you the push you want. also, think about what spektrum the drums take. you had a lot of drums taking the same spektrum. that doesnt add power, just mud. u should layer, but layer with differnt freq.


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## Dan Mott (Oct 30, 2010)

rabiang @ Sun Oct 31 said:


> in this sense, music is not theory, its empirical work. it doesnt really matter if it was right in the head. and the sound is always telling the truth so to speak.
> 
> when i did my mix, if i had the midi i would have made other instruments play as well when the beats enter. 2 instruments and a bass cant really give you the push you want. also, think about what spektrum the drums take. you had a lot of drums taking the same spektrum. that doesnt add power, just mud. u should layer, but layer with differnt freq.




I didn't want any more instruments playing together because I didn't want the mix to be that busy. To me, the hit wasn't that muddy, I took alot of the mud out with a wide cut at about 300Hz which made it much cleaner. Aslo, each layer of drums I put on top of another where hipassed to diffferent fequencies so there would be no conflicting. 

My first hit was the lowest bass hit which I didn't EQ at all, the second was the tom hit which I hipassed at about 65Hz or so, so it didn't have any sub bass that the bass hit was getting. For the rest of the hits, I hipassed at about 100Hz or so. I sent them all to a group, compressed them, took the mud out and boosted some low and high frequencies.

Maybe it could do with some higher staccatos. Also, there weren't just 2 instruments and a bass playing, there was the violas, celli, bass and two other synths that sat behind.

Eh. I'll just play around more to see what else I can do.


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## rabiang (Oct 30, 2010)

ok, sounds like u had a good plan with the drums. consider choosing more different drums from the start though, instead of eq'ing them into different spaces.

there is a lot of room for more instruments both below and above the celli and violas. pads in general, and this arp doesnt really give much energy, its more spice, not the meat.

in general be careful compressing drums with reverb, e.g. epic toms, epic dhols etc. its really difficult to make it sound good.

either way, i think the piece works fine for the purpose.


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## Dan Mott (Oct 30, 2010)

rabiang @ Sun Oct 31 said:


> ok, sounds like u had a good plan with the drums. consider choosing more different drums from the start though, instead of eq'ing them into different spaces.
> 
> there is a lot of room for more instruments both below and above the celli and violas. pads in general, and this arp doesnt really give much energy, its more spice, not the meat.
> 
> ...




Ok, thank you.

What would you add below or aove the strings if it were you?

Considering I didn't want anything above the strings because I want the strings and drums to be the loudes and everything else mix around them.


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## rabiang (Oct 30, 2010)

i would just experiment. drag the midi to different instruments and listen. as its a fast melody, u need a decent attack on the sound. the lass db FC would be something i would try. you can also use another celli ensemble (a smaller), and make it one octave down. 

if u wanna use a tuba or something like that u prob need to make a slower melody, thats fine though. then i would have the synth bass and the new sound in the root key, and create harmonies with the violas and celli (sorry if this is obvious). right now i work with a 12tone composer, which creates great possibilites when experimenting with transpose. thats just a reminder that scales are not always there to be used .

this is just general workflow, must adapt as needed.


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## Dan Mott (Oct 30, 2010)

rabiang @ Sun Oct 31 said:


> i would just experiment. drag the midi to different instruments and listen. as its a fast melody, u need a decent attack on the sound. the lass db FC would be something i would try. you can also use another celli ensemble (a smaller), and make it one octave down.
> 
> if u wanna use a tuba or something like that u prob need to make a slower melody, thats fine though. then i would have the synth bass and the new sound in the root key, and create harmonies with the violas and celli (sorry if this is obvious). right now i work with a 12tone composer, which creates great possibilites when experimenting with transpose. thats just a reminder that scales are not always there to be used .
> 
> this is just general workflow, must adapt as needed.




I'll make another version, then post it back here.

Thank you.


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## Dan Mott (Nov 3, 2010)

Hello.

A new and improved mix? Post your thoughts.

Ok so, in the end I decided this is the finished product. I didn't feel there would be a need to add new instruments, I kind of like it how it is. I know it could use maybe some high strings, but I want this to be a simple massive impact. 

My aim was to create an instense teaser, like an action film drama type thing. If however I did a longer version, I'd add alot more to this. I'd add more dynamics between when the drums come in, then I'd add some automation to keep things interesting, such as pulling instruments forward and back.

Sadly, I cannot make more than a 15 to 30 max piece at the moment with minimal instruments. I need to sort out VE Pros's easy bottle neck.

Anyway, here's the link. http://soundcloud.com/destaana/radio-intro-number-2

1. Layered more drums.
2. EQ on drums adding more high end
3. Added low end hit. I find it more effective adding instruments that have great low end in the first place, rather than EQ, considering it makes it sound really articial boomy.

4. I mixed this in headphones. Why? My speakers are getting fixed, not to mention I mixed this song on headphones from the beggining.

5. I still think this isn't impare with a professional mix, but I suppose I'm working to mix like one... one day and also get my other music I do to show on this forum when my PC is sorted.

6, I maxed out the velocities on the strings when the drums come in, and I personally think it sits better.

Oh. One other thing. I suggest you listen to the first mix before the second, just so you can compare the (I hope) Improvements. 

Dan.


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