# Craziness of Crypto Currencies



## Markrs (Jun 29, 2021)

So, I got recommended on YouTube some Crypto currency debunking videos as I was a fair bit of science stuff and I have recently invested some money in a very boring stocks and shares ISA via Vanguard, and we know how much Google likes to track you and then recommend videos based on that.

So thankfully it was the debunking videos it recommended rather than the "get rich, quick" ones. So anyway I have just spent an hour watching videos by a YouTuber called CoffeeZilla and oh my god is the Crypto world crazy. The amount of scams and cyptos with no real value. It seems many scammers steal hundreds of millions sometimes billions and don't get caught.

You have loads of pump and dump schemes via influencers and social media people again with no repercussions. Whilst the videos are entertaining I had to stop watching as they are just crazy. It showed how truly broken so much of the world is, as technology and free market (in the sense that you can operate out of low tax low regulation and no extradition countries very easily) continues to destabilise standard economics and laws. If is a proper wild west out there.

If you study history and look at gold rushes and banks before centralisation (centralised bank of last resort that underpins trust in the financial markets) you see a similar thing, after all history repeats, like a melody with small variations.

For context I am not really into investing, I have previously not utilised my tax free ISAs as I should have done, as I was planning to get a mortgage on a house and wanted a decent deposit but the market has been crazy so I finally put some money into a very boring stocks and shares ISA.


----------



## Markrs (Jun 29, 2021)

Does anyone on here invest in Crypto? Do you see it as investment or a type of gambling where you are okay if you lose the whole investment?


----------



## kgdrum (Jun 29, 2021)

The entire crypto phenomena often leaves me puzzled. One aspect of crypto I really don’t understand and if someone could explain It I would appreciate it is* data-mining. *
How does having super computers running mathematical calculations create bitcoin? I keep hearing people and governments complain that crypto data-mining takes too much energy and resources environmentally and I’m left more puzzled,data-mining creates bitcoin not other people investing? Some of this just doesn’t seem to make sense to my small old fashioned mind.
Can someone please explain this to me?


----------



## GtrString (Jun 29, 2021)

I was considering putting in a few pounds. The rationale was that European banks are now charging for money on your account, so not investing would be a certain loss, but also the huge government corporate compensations under covid-19 and the former american president's political destabilization of the world was under consideration. 

I just found the whole economy being a volcano waiting to blow up deadly lava bursts, and in that scenario, having a few funds in crypto might not be a bad thing. I think of it as a spreading of risk in a volatile economy, as crypto might benefit from a world economic collapse.

I didn't do it, though, mostly because I'm very much not a first mover of anything. I bide my time.


----------



## ptram (Jun 29, 2021)

I don't. But a few decades ago I asked my bank director how I could invest in Apple shares from Italy. He laughed and told me to avoid wasting money in something so volatile.

Paolo


----------



## Markrs (Jun 29, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> The entire crypto phenomena often leaves me puzzled. One aspect of crypto I really don’t understand and if someone could explain It I would appreciate it is* data-mining. *
> How does having super computers running mathematical calculations create bitcoin? I keep hearing people and governments complain that crypto data-mining takes too much energy and resources environmentally and I’m left more puzzled,data-mining creates bitcoin not other people investing? Some of this just doesn’t seem to make sense to my small old fashioned mind.
> Can someone please explain this to me?


It is just a way to limit supply but at the same time to ensure that those computers keep a log of transactions.

In the normal financial world there are centralised computers that track transactions, like those done by VISA and Mastercard. In a decentralised financial system this is done by 10,000s computers around the world that keep a copy of all transactions. This stops potential fraud as any attempt to manipulate the trade on one computer are wayed against the record on the 10,000s of computers running elsewhere.

To reward the owners of these computers they can "mine" for Crypto Currency, they mine by solving maths problems. To ensure that there is not over supply they reduce the number of coins that can be created by increasing the complexity of the math problem. They do this by monitoring all the people "mining" and if lots of people are trying to create a coin at the same time they make the math problem harder. This way ensuring that only a finite number of coins are created at any one time.


----------



## kgdrum (Jun 29, 2021)

Markrs said:


> It is just a way to limit supply but at the same time to ensure that those computers keep a log of transactions.
> 
> In the normal financial world there are centralised computers that track transactions, like those done by VISA and Mastercard. In a decentralised financial system this is done by 10,000s computers around the world that keep a copy of all transactions. This stops potential fraud as any attempt to manipulate the trade on one computer are wayed against the record on the 10,000s of computers running elsewhere.
> 
> To reward the owners of these computers they can "mine" for Crypto Currency, they mine by solving maths problems. To ensure that there is not over supply they reduce the number of coins that can be created by increasing the complexity of the math problem. They do this by monitoring all the people "mining" and if lots of people are trying to create a coin at the same time they make the math problem harder. This way ensuring that only a finite number of coins are created at any one time.


Thanks this is a good explanation but this still seems like crypto resides in bizarre-o world!


----------



## d.healey (Jun 29, 2021)

I have crypto, bitcoin, litecoin, and ethereum. I store them on a hardware wallet, Trezor, not an exchange. It's 100% a gamble unless you're Elon Musk or you trade hourly. I made a decent profit on some litecoin I bought 8 years ago. With the recent crash of crypto I've made a huge loss with the other two. I'm just going to sit on them for years and forget about them as I did with litecoin and hope their value increases. Don't gamble what you're not willing to lose. Use your ISA allowances before Crypto - premium bonds are safer too and tax free unlike crypto.


----------



## Markrs (Jun 29, 2021)

d.healey said:


> I have crypto, bitcoin, litecoin, and ethereum. I store them on a hardware wallet, Trezor, not an exchange. It's 100% a gamble unless you're Elon Musk or you trade hourly. I made a decent profit on some litecoin I bought 8 years ago. With the recent crash of crypto I've made a huge loss with the other two. I'm just going to sit on them for years and forget about them as I did with litecoin and hope their value increases. Don't gamble what you're not willing to lose. Use your ISA allowances before Crypto - premium bonds are safer too and tax free unlike crypto.


Great advice. As a general rule it is always better to play the long game with investments. As I need some of my money for a mortgage deposit in the next couple of years, I have mine is in LifeStrategy® 60% Equity Fund - Accumulation with Vanguard.

Basically where the money is split between, property, bonds, and share in markets across the world. The returns will be modest over the long term, but it is relatively low risk. Crypto is like betting, especially short term investing. Long term Crypto investments spread across numerous currencies are probably less risk, though still high risk compared to shares and other types of investments.


----------



## Technostica (Jun 29, 2021)

I have all my money invested in tulips, no risk there.


----------



## Markrs (Jun 29, 2021)

Technostica said:


> I have all my money invested in tulips, no risk there.


Yep absolutely no parallels with the Dutch Tulip mania 😂

In fairness ones like Etherium have so unique IP (most Crypto currencies work on open source code which makes them easily replicable, therefor less valuable), and they have looked at where blockchain technology can be used elsewhere, especially where this is reduced levels of transactions. This is a big weakness of blockchain technology when it compared to centralised record keeping.


----------



## JeffvR (Jun 29, 2021)

I invest in it! And I like it. To me, investing is better than leaving inflationary money on my bank account. And so far, Bitcoin is the best performing asset in the human history. You can make much more with altcoins if you trade with it, but most of them really go to zero long term. Also, it's nothing like the tulip mania https://www.coininsider.com/bitcoin-tulip-mania/


----------



## Markrs (Jun 29, 2021)

JeffvR said:


> I invest in it! And I like it. To me, investing is better than leaving inflationary money on my bank account. And so far, Bitcoin is the best performing asset in the human history. You can make much more with altcoins if you trade with it, but most of them really go to zero long term. Also, it's nothing like the tulip mania https://www.coininsider.com/bitcoin-tulip-mania/


Bit coin does serve a transactional purpose. It's weakness is that it is easily replicable, which has happened a lot, it also doesn't scale well without high costs. It's underlying blockchain technology struggles with high numbers of transactions per second as well as the time latency of updating all the blockchain.

So there are differences to the tulip mania, but most alt currencies don't offer anything unique and feel more like tulips to me.


----------



## cygnusdei (Jun 29, 2021)

A central idea _was_ that as the namesake suggests, cryptocurrencies would afford anonymity, be it for the purpose of anonymous transaction or tax-free capital gains. It still holds, but with online exchanges allowing mainstream adoption and the subsequent government tax enforcement, the anonymity aspect is fading. Now cryptocurrencies are for all intents and purposes behaving more like penny stocks, risky but with alluring prospect of outsize gains overnight.


----------



## JeffvR (Jun 29, 2021)

Markrs said:


> Bit coin does serve a transactional purpose. It's weakness is that it is easily replicable, which has happened a lot, it doesn't scale well without high costs. It's underlying blockchain technology struggles with high numbers of transactions per second as well as the time latency of updating all the blockchain.
> 
> So there are differences to the tulip mania, but most alt currencies don't offer anything unique and feel more like tulips to me.


What do you mean by replicable?


----------



## Markrs (Jun 29, 2021)

JeffvR said:


> What do you mean by replicable?


Bitcoin primary code base is open source, the fact 1000s of alt coins exist shows that Bitcoin is and has been replicated 1000s of times. This is only from a technical point of view, it's reach and brand awareness is harder to replicate.


----------



## d.healey (Jun 29, 2021)

cygnusdei said:


> A central idea _was_ that as the namesake suggests, cryptocurrencies would afford anonymity,


Most crypto currencies aren't anonymous by design, they have public ledgers of transactions so that everything can be traced and verified. It is possible (although difficult these days) to purchase crypto currencies without providing your real identity and as long as you don't do anything with the coins that link back to your real identity you can use them anonymously - just like cash.

Many original concepts and ideas for crypto, before it actually existed, envisioned it as an anonymous ecash, but that was never really true in most cases once they came into being.

There are some cryptos that are designed to be anonymous, Monero is probably the best known example.

If you really want to be anonymous then use cash, the VPN service I use even accepts cash


----------



## Arbee (Jun 29, 2021)

I haven't bought into it but understand the basic concept (I think). To me it seems like "Facebook Money" or "Google Dollars" are only one step away. "Peer to peer money" has to be utopia for organised crime and for scammers.


----------



## Markrs (Jun 29, 2021)

Arbee said:


> "Peer to peer money" has to be utopia for organised crime and for scammers.


Yesa, indeed it is. Companies have to hold bitcoin in case they have their drives encrypted by organised crime and they then have to pay to get them unlocked.


----------



## Markrs (Jun 29, 2021)

This is one of the funnier videos I watched. Whilst he mocks Bitcoin he is an investor in Crypto Currencies like Etherium, probably Bitcoin too.


----------



## emilio_n (Jun 29, 2021)

I have some, not too much, just to learn how works. I got some money in the last year but lost half the n the last crash. As other said, don’t put any money that you are not able to lose. Is an Incredible volatile market. I have just some money sleeping there in case...


----------



## AllanH (Jun 29, 2021)

The idea of blockchain, i.e. a public ledger that is near-impossible to change retroactively, is brilliant and a substantial contribution to technology. 

I'm not sure there is any intrinsic value in crypto currencies, but as e.g. the US dollar is not backed by anything other than the "faith and credit" of the US government, there is a good argument that the same can be said for the US dollar. 

I think it's an unregulated asset type where crooks are free to operate. It does not help that Crypto is the currency of crime, but that's a bit of a different issue.


----------



## emilio_n (Jun 29, 2021)

Ah, and it's true... A lot of scams as well


----------



## d.healey (Jun 29, 2021)

AllanH said:


> It does not help that Crypto is the currency of crime,


Oh, it is?


----------



## Markrs (Jun 29, 2021)

AllanH said:


> The idea of blockchain, i.e. a public ledger that is near-impossible to change retroactively, is brilliant and a substantial contribution to technology.
> 
> I'm not sure there is any intrinsic value in crypto currencies, but as e.g. the US dollar is not backed by anything other than the "faith and credit" of the US government, there is a good argument that the same can be said for the US dollar.
> 
> I think it's an unregulated asset type where crooks are free to operate. It does not help that Crypto is the currency of crime, but that's a bit of a different issue.


Governments issue on the basis of "promise to pay the bearer" which through takes, borrowing and gold reserves they are more able to do than Crypto currency which has no assets or real ability to borrow except off potential angel investors.

That said totally agree about the technology being brilliant and I one or another will shape digital landscape. I just don't know if that is with currencies that are not underwritten, or if a, or some currencies do succeed which ones it will be.


----------



## AllanH (Jun 29, 2021)

Let me add a few more thoughts: I think crypto currencies such as Bitcoin and Ether are fine as long as the infrastructure keeps working. The "value" is established by independent parties trading, just like stocks any most other asset types (houses, bonds, cars, etc.)

The risky ones are (imo) the currencies that claim to be 1:1 with an actual currency, also known as a "stable coin". I do not think that there is any way the company/group behind e.g. Tether can guarantee the 1:1 ratio given the size of the coin (60+ B, I think).

Breaking the dollar is a huge concern for money market funds and the stable coins seem to dwarf the regulated market. The stable coin market will blow up at some point and possibly be the igniter for the next financial crisis.


----------



## Markrs (Jun 29, 2021)

AllanH said:


> Let me add a few more thoughts: I think crypto currencies such as Bitcoin and Ether are fine as long as the infrastructure keeps working. The "value" is established by independent parties trading, just like stocks any most other asset types (houses, bonds, cars, etc.)
> 
> The risky ones are (imo) the currencies that claim to be 1:1 with an actual currency, also known as a "stable coin". I do not think that there is any way the company/group behind e.g. Tether can guarantee the 1:1 ratio given the size of the coin (60+ B, I think).
> 
> Breaking the dollar is a huge concern for money market funds and the stable coins seem to dwarf the regulated market. The stable coin market will blow up at some point and possibly be the igniter for the next financial crisis.


Watch the video on Tether possibly the dodgiest of Crypto companies out there. The people who run it are not the sort of people you would want to invest in (one of them has tried to set up Ponzi schemes in the past)


----------



## Markrs (Jun 29, 2021)

This one is worth a watch too. Be wary of the market capitalisation on Crypto Currencies


----------



## Rich4747 (Jun 29, 2021)

a sheep a wolf and a short. the pattern of life. Investing in a house is a good idea


----------



## iaink (Jul 1, 2021)

3DC said:


> To establish any value you have to set a nominal value based on tangible value. In case of fiat money its usually based on units of several precious metals ( gold, silver, ...). So let say, just for example, one single gold coin gets you 100 units of fiat money.
> 
> So here is a very simple question:
> 
> ...


I'm curious why you think fiat currency is set to units of precious metal? That is the opposite of fiat's definition...

And in asking what could go wrong with crypto... why not ask what *will* go wrong with fiat currencies which, as a matter of historic certainty, always go to 0. The longest surviving fiat is the pound sterling, and it has lost almost 100% of it's value during its record lifespan of 300 years.

Similarly, the USD has lost almost 100% of it's value in the last century. A frightening chunk of that value loss has occurred this year.

How has Bitcoin performed in comparison, over the last 10 years?

Here is an example of the logarthmic growth model from a 2019 post - which predicted the 2021 bull run and crash with remarkable accuracy.

This can be thought of as a chart of adoption and proliferation - which, to answer your question, is what determines the value of Bitcoin. The bull runs are surges of interest and speculation, and after each crash, the value (level of adoption) remains higher than before the preceding bull run. Supply is a fixed variable in this equation - unlike fiat, there will only ever be 21M BTC.



*this is not investment advice.


----------



## fourier (Jul 1, 2021)

I've a friend that is a senior financial analyst for a major bank and that "flipped side" from seeing it as a lot of circus to now something that plays out in the same way as the internet infrastructure. Due to extensive knowledge of economics, time and effort he can do sensible short positions and investments on cryptocurrency - but at my layman level I'm not ready to stake any money in this over solid index fund investments.

As with most things related to mining and money, I think a few privileged individuals (knowledge, money) stand to make a fortune, many stand to lose a chunk and those already worst off will again get the short end of the stick (e.g. Ethiopia with huge natural energy resources, high corruption, prone to be taken advantage of).


----------



## iaink (Jul 1, 2021)

Markrs said:


> To ensure that there is not over supply they reduce the number of coins that can be created by increasing the complexity of the math problem. They do this by monitoring all the people "mining" and if lots of people are trying to create a coin at the same time they make the math problem harder. This way ensuring that only a finite number of coins are created at any one time.


For Bitcoin, the supply is finite at 21 million. Bitcoin cannot be created - only the supply that already exists can be "unlocked" by mining.

Along with its true de-centralization, that is why Bitcoin is really the only crypto.


----------



## cygnusdei (Jul 1, 2021)

Maybe it helps to think, what would you do with your money if you have X amount?
$100: in your wallet
$1000: +your bank account
$10,000: +stock portfolio
$100,000: +treasury bonds
$1,000,000: +property, foreign currency
$10,000,000: +direct investments in startups
$100,000,000: you're filthy stinking rich, putting $10,000 into cryptocurrencies is a fun bet and you won't lose sleep if you lose it all.


----------



## Markrs (Jul 1, 2021)

iaink said:


> For Bitcoin, the supply is finite at 21 million. Bitcoin cannot be created - only the supply that already exists can be "unlocked" by mining.
> 
> Along with its true de-centralization, that is why Bitcoin is really the only crypto.


Indeed, I should have been a bit more specific that the number is finite and limited to 21 million.


----------



## Markrs (Jul 1, 2021)

The weird thing with Crypto is 2 people (they are only 20 and 17 years old) can "steal" (they claim they were hacked, my view is that looks dubious to me) *$3.6 billion dollars* of money and it not even make the news.


----------



## purple (Jul 1, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> The entire crypto phenomena often leaves me puzzled. One aspect of crypto I really don’t understand and if someone could explain It I would appreciate it is* data-mining. *
> How does having super computers running mathematical calculations create bitcoin? I keep hearing people and governments complain that crypto data-mining takes too much energy and resources environmentally and I’m left more puzzled,data-mining creates bitcoin not other people investing? Some of this just doesn’t seem to make sense to my small old fashioned mind.
> Can someone please explain this to me?


It doesn't really create bitcoins. It adds them to circulation until the total supply is in circulation (21 million I think and we are at about 18). These bitcoins are given as rewards to the miners as it is the miners who process all the transactions on the network (called a "block reward"). Once all are in supply, the miners will only be paid in transaction fees and not the block rewards as there would be no bitcoin left to reward them with. The processing of transactions involves solving increasingly difficult cryptographic puzzles as this is the way that the network can verify that transactions are legit and not being tampered with. Bitcoin is not very environmentally friendly, but when it was developed the concept of it scaling this much wasn't really accounted for.


----------



## cygnusdei (Jul 2, 2021)

purple said:


> Once all are in supply, the miners will only be paid in transaction fees and not the block rewards as there would be no bitcoin left to reward them with.


At which point it would no longer be profitable to maintain the network, so the miners will move on to greener pastures, no? Granted that the vanishing point is asymptotic, but it seems that it would be the death of Bitcoin. If you have a Visa credit card but you are charged an exorbitant transaction fee (to reward the network) or there is a prohibitive processing lag (because there are few network participants) wouldn't you just use something else?


----------



## purple (Jul 2, 2021)

Speculative technology + markets + no regluation + easy monetary policy + stimulus + FOMO = a recipe for disaster as far as scams.

It's really more of a regulatory issue than anything else. It's just so easy to make and pump a scam coin or token and there aren't really any consequences.

In fact, some like safemoon are quite literally hard-coded as pyramid schemes, which not only makes them scammy by nature but also creates more of a cult-like culture because those who got in on the last wave are now desperate to get others in so they can collect their entry taxes...


----------



## purple (Jul 2, 2021)

cygnusdei said:


> At which point it would no longer be profitable to maintain the network, so the miners will move on to greener pastures, no? Granted that the vanishing point is asymptotic, but it seems that it would be the death of Bitcoin. If you have a Visa credit card but you are charged an exorbitant transaction fee (to reward the network) or there is a prohibitive processing lag (because there are few network participants) wouldn't you just use something else?


Not sure exactly. I don't really care about bitcoin myself so I don't know that much about how it works. At least not as much as many others. But I do know that less miners would mean more profits to those who stay. It would sort of balance itself out. There will always be an opportunity for lots of profit


----------



## cygnusdei (Jul 3, 2021)

3DC said:


> - There is no such thing as Nobel Prize in Economy.


I'm not sure what you mean here. There is a Nobel prize in Economics.


----------



## Macrawn (Jul 4, 2021)

I don't own any yet but I plan to buy a little. The biggest scam to tell the truth is fiat currency.

If you own dollars you are losing money. Crypto currency is set up to be deflationary as it gets rarer and harder to make so I'm going to put a little money into it during the times it pulls back. After a big dive I'll buy some.

The biggest risks are governments banning the use of it. People don't realize this but the government can also ban citizens from holding gold if they want to. If, for example the dollar collapses when the world no longer has confidence in it because of the massive massive debt we have, people will flee to gold. Eventually we will experience hyper inflation here. To prevent that the US could ban citizens from buying it and crypto if they wanted in the extreme case they wanted to stop a dollar free fall. It's an extreme case, but when the house of cards collapses it is going to be brutal. When that will happen who knows but our kids may experience that reality.

In that type of environment you generally want to own things, but it will be so crazy and unprecedented that who knows where the safety will be if any. So I just invest in a diversified stock portfolio.

We saw what covid-19 did (on a human scale the massive death) but we also saw how our logistical system is so fragile. Everything depends on goods arriving at a certain time and we have little warehouse space. It's all planned to arrive just at the right moment the shelves empty. All this disruption lead to empty shelves because so little inventory is carried. It all depends on the ships arriving as scheduled every day. Imagine what will happen in an economic collapse? You think the toilet paper run was bad?

Hmm maybe I should invest in MREs instead of crypto.


----------



## cygnusdei (Jul 4, 2021)

Macrawn said:


> I don't own any yet but I plan to buy a little. The biggest scam to tell the truth is fiat currency.
> 
> If you own dollars you are losing money. Crypto currency is set up to be deflationary as it gets rarer and harder to make so I'm going to put a little money into it during the times it pulls back. After a big dive I'll buy some.
> 
> ...


IMO if the USD goes into a crisis (which may be a protracted process, not necessarily overnight), the first thing the government will do is nationalize the retirement funds, which is a $35 trillion sitting duck now. This time it's different - people don't own gold, or even know what it looks like! (different story in asian cultures, e.g. China, India though).


----------



## n9n9n9 (Jul 4, 2021)

I have three friends that invested in crypto. One ran a mining rig on a bank of servers that were mostly idle at his work 24/7 for about two years: 2011-2013. He has more than $30m in bitcoin atm. Amazingly, he was *homeless* for a few months that he was mining it. One friend that got in with a cash investment in 2015 of about $30k. He has several million in bitcoin now and has used some of it to buy a beautiful home in Japan and a *lake*... he owns a lake more than a mile across and all the waterfront property. One that went in with about $50k in 2017. He has almost a million in bitcoin now and has diversified his investments and has basically fully funded his retirement at age 30. Each time a friend has announced they are going in to bitcoin I've felt that they were kind of foolish... or foolish not to sell quickly, say when their money doubled. And each time I've elected not to do what they are doing for reasons I can't fathom now. I am the fool!


----------



## n9n9n9 (Jul 4, 2021)

Isn't the big risk re: bitcoin the advent of quantum computers able to run mining tasks trillions of times faster than conventional means?


----------



## Bluemount Score (Jul 5, 2021)

Markrs said:


> Does anyone on here invest in Crypto? Do you see it as investment or a type of gambling where you are okay if you lose the whole investment?


I do, with a rather small percentage of my investment portfolio. Only in bigger projects where I do see long term potential. It is indeed a crazy world right now and needs to be regulated, but I do enjoy following where this is gonna go.


----------



## Jay Panikkar (Jul 6, 2021)

I don't jot down my investments on random public forums but I have some thoughts about the current situation with cryptocurrencies.

International financial organisations like the IMF—the "weasels," I like to call them—and the central banks of the USSA, EU and China are actively going after cryptocurrencies. Their recent attacks against El Salvador show this.

Each of these entities have their own agenda:
- the IMF sees cryptocurrency as an existential threat
- the EU and USSA won't allow an independent asset class that blatantly exposes how fraudulent the global USD-based fiat-based financial system actually is
- the Chinese government does not want a parallel currency system to the Digital Yuan

It's impossible to get rid of cryptocurrencies due to the nature of the technology behind it, but it can be suppressed. And unfortunately, I think they will mostly succeed by either forcing general purpose cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin into becoming domain-specific (like Ethereum), or by forcing it underground.

If the latter happens, there'll be relentless media propaganda designed to defame / discredit cryptocurrencies, probably by trying to associate it with crime of various sorts. All of these scams and fraudsters in the cryptocurrency space will only add fuel to the fire. You can already see this narrative being set up. Unfortunately, I think they will mostly succeed in doing this as well.

There are only two ways to "save" Bitcoin:
1) A major financial crisis. There is an increasing probability of this happening within 3 years.
2) Russia—or even China—does a power move by openly backing Bitcoin. This doesn't seem very likely.

On top of all that, there will be all kinds of bullshit over the next few years coming from central banks introducing digital currencies. The sudden rollout of central bank digital currencies is designed to eclipse cryptocurrencies—because they can't destroy it—by negating its usefulness in the eyes of the general public. 

Either way, it's going to be a bumpy ride if you hold cryptocurrencies.


----------



## Jish (Jul 7, 2021)

Jay Panikkar said:


> There are only two ways to "save" Bitcoin:
> 1) A major financial crisis. There is an increasing probability of this happening within 3 years.
> 2) Russia—or even China—does a power move by openly backing Bitcoin. This doesn't seem very likely.
> 
> ...


This is a very insightful point that is rarely raised by the many youtube, 'Crypo Gurus'. Some are better than others (Ben Cowen) at pointing out the potential downsides of the crypto space. Some avoid it at all costs, which is telling.

I have listened to more hours of people like Michael Saylor in the past 8 months than any human should really have to endure. I'm getting very little 'new' in the way of interesting takes on what's happening on a weekly basis, and that's overwhelmingly likely because people like him (and Keiser) are far too invested in this thing now to want to display any significant, _long-term _indications that the market is actually as fragile as correctly said above. Sometimes, they don't even seem to want to entertain it- I saw Saylor in an interview with Cowen last week, and he just came off as a pompously-omniscient ass, giving literally 20 minute responses to questions which hardly made it a discussion at all- and the first signs of it becoming a real back-and-forth always had him pushing back almost immediately- what other groups tend to operate like this?

And the sad thing about it is, the original concept behind the blockchain/bitcoin (primarily as a means of de-centralization, _away_ from the large banks) is one worthy of a lot of admiration, especially given the incredible amount of work these people put into it. But power tends to win the long game, time after time and can almost always see what's going on amongst the lowly rabble before things get too out of hand (in other words, start to meaningfully threaten their own financial interests). A bumpy ride ahead is the safest bet here for sure, and anyone looking to invest should keep that in mind at all times.


----------



## purple (Jul 7, 2021)

Jay Panikkar said:


> I don't jot down my investments on random public forums but I have some thoughts about the current situation with cryptocurrencies.
> 
> International financial organisations like the IMF—the "weasels," I like to call them—and the central banks of the USSA, EU and China are actively going after cryptocurrencies. Their recent attacks against El Salvador show this.
> 
> ...


Yes. As interested as I am about decentralized finance, I'm concerned that the more useful it gets the faster it will be banned or heavily suppressed in the US and other countries.


----------



## sostenuto (Jul 7, 2021)

very limited view _ but something must surely change based on enormous energy usage __ distributed ledgers_. Thought server farms were a concern, but comparatively minor !


----------



## Markrs (Jul 7, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> very limited view _ but something must surely change based on enormous energy usage __ distributed ledgers_. Thought server farms were a concern, but comparatively minor !


Good video on it by Joe Scott


----------



## sostenuto (Jul 7, 2021)

Markrs said:


> Good video on it by Joe Scott



Expanded perspectives. Likely to commit $14.79 for some cool streams ! THX 👏🏻


----------



## cygnusdei (Jul 7, 2021)

More knowledgeable people please correct if I'm wrong: "distributed ledger" sounds a lot like "distributed computing", but it's nothing like that, it's the opposite. In distributed computing the nodes work in a cooperative fashion whereas in crypto mining the nodes are in competition with each other: whoever finishes a piece of computing task first wins and gets rewarded, which means the nodes that lose have expended futile work/energy/cost.

It's analogous to penny auction, many users bid in the hope of winning a valuable item for pennies on the dollar, but only one user wins and the others lose their bidding money.


----------



## bill5 (Jul 7, 2021)

Markrs said:


> Does anyone on here invest in Crypto? Do you see it as investment or a type of gambling where you are okay if you lose the whole investment?


Not for all the tea in China. I don't understand it for one, it seems all extremely odd and fragile and vulnerable to me, and second it is far too volatile and unpredictable. That's why I don't mess with gold either. I'm sure some people do this and make millions, more power to ya, I'll stick with my boring but (relatively) safer mutual funds and chug along hoping to retire before I get too old and enjoy some retirement years. Course you never know...


----------



## bill5 (Jul 7, 2021)

3DC said:


> You know George Orwell animal farm? All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.


Please don't mention that book! Loved it because it was such great literature but it was so eerily spot on about the worst of human nature.


----------



## Jay Panikkar (Jul 8, 2021)

Jish said:


> This is a very insightful point that is rarely raised by the many youtube, 'Crypo Gurus'. Some are better than others (Ben Cowen) at pointing out the potential downsides of the crypto space. Some avoid it at all costs, which is telling.


Just to be clear, my comments were specifically about cryptocurrencies as a "get rich quick" investment.

The crypto ecosystem as a whole is expanding like never before, but it's still in its infancy. New concepts, currencies and applications are being steadily introduced. Over the last 8 months, as a consequence of co-ordinated censorship by "Big Tech." and various political factions, billions in funding have been poured into the ecosystem.

I'm mainly interested in seeing blockchain become a part of public service and utilities. This is the first step towards a _true_ republic, one in which any citizen can verify every single vote cast, and every transaction that involves taxpayer money. It's time to get rid of "black box" governments controlled by unelected megalomaniacs and serviced by corruptible idiots.



Jish said:


> And the sad thing about it is, the original concept behind the blockchain/bitcoin (primarily as a means of de-centralization, _away_ from the large banks) is one worthy of a lot of admiration, especially given the incredible amount of work these people put into it. But power tends to win the long game, time after time and can almost always see what's going on amongst the lowly rabble before things get too out of hand (in other words, start to meaningfully threaten their own financial interests). A bumpy ride ahead is the safest bet here for sure, and anyone looking to invest should keep that in mind at all times.





purple said:


> Yes. As interested as I am about decentralized finance, I'm concerned that the more useful it gets the faster it will be banned or heavily suppressed in the US and other countries.


BitCoin will atleast partially fulfill its purpose, but not in the way its creators imagined.

Central bank digital currency is a knee-jerk reaction to BitCoin, but it's also a double-edged axe for large and corrupt central banks. Implementing digital currencies requires nations to develop their own payment processing systems. And once these systems go live, it's only a matter of time before they're used to bypass the "international finance cartel" and trade directly with their partners in local currencies.

Large and corrupt central banks will see their influence wane as the concept of global reserve currencies becomes redundant, and the value of national currencies will once again be based on national productivity.



cygnusdei said:


> More knowledgeable people please correct if I'm wrong: "distributed ledger" sounds a lot like "distributed computing", but it's nothing like that, it's the opposite. In distributed computing the nodes work in a cooperative fashion whereas in crypto mining the nodes are in competition with each other: whoever finishes a piece of computing task first wins and gets rewarded, which means the nodes that lose have expended futile work/energy/cost.
> 
> It's analogous to penny auction, many users bid in the hope of winning a valuable item for pennies on the dollar, but only one user wins and the others lose their bidding money.


In a 'centralised ledger' system, there is a single authority that controls the single ledger (which is the record of all transactions within that network). This single authority has more privileges than anyone else in that network; it _owns_ the ledger, it can mess with it as much as it wants, so it gets to decide what the "truth" is.

In a 'distributed ledger' system, _all_ participants in that network get a copy of the ledger, so there is no single authority that decides what the "truth" is... but this creates another problem: how do you validate and update all of these copies? Some of these copies may have been falsified, and some may not have been updated with the recent transactions...

That's the task of the "miners." Their job is to keep the network validated and updated using their own resources, and they will be rewarded for it each time they complete the task. It's not an auction—there is no bidding involved—it's a race to complete the task. The whole process has been deliberately setup like a game of sorts in order to close various loopholes and prevent cheating by "miners."

But here's the important thing: unlike the single authority controlling a centralised ledger, here the "miners" are volunteers with no special privileges over the other participants of that network. There is no single source of "truth" in that network, the entire ledger is checked over and over again to create a consensus of what is valid and what isn't.

Sure, this is an oversimplification of how the network operates (the actual processes are highly complex) but I think you get the idea.


----------



## cygnusdei (Jul 8, 2021)

Jay Panikkar said:


> there is no bidding involved—it's a race to complete the task


I just want to make sure you know how penny auction works - if you do, I'll leave it at that. The analogy is not centered on the bidding but rather in the overall futile work/energy/cost. As you said it's race, i.e. competition, which is the opposite of cooperation.


----------



## Jay Panikkar (Jul 8, 2021)

cygnusdei said:


> I just want to make sure you know how penny auction works - if you do, I'll leave it at that. The analogy is not centered on the bidding but rather in the overall futile work/energy/cost. As you said it's race, i.e. competition, which is the opposite of cooperation.


Right. The "losers" of the game have wasted their energy in competition. 

Yes, it's one of the biggest problems with networks. 

As the network expands, with more participants and miners, usage and wastage of energy gets exponentially worse. Because the infrastructure cannot run at 100% efficiency, disproportionately more juice is required as it scales up. Many networks also implement artificial limits—either due to technical reasons or to close loopholes—which amplifies this even further. Miners will increasingly use disproportionate computing power to complete their tasks. And on top of all that, the chances of multiple miners simultaneously "winning" the game also increase, and the resolution mechanism is hugely wasteful.

Apart from the huge wastage, energy is the #1 weakness of such networks. What is somebody pulls the plug on the infrastructure? Poof! An EMP bomb will wipe out the network economy.


----------



## Ross Sampson (Jul 8, 2021)

Markrs said:


> It seems many scammers steal hundreds of millions sometimes billions and don't get caught.


Ah, I see you're familiar with Wall Street


----------



## Robert_G (Jul 8, 2021)

My tendency is to invest in land. There is nothing more valuable (and safe to invest in) in the world then dirt.


----------



## cygnusdei (Jul 8, 2021)

Robert_G said:


> My tendency is to invest in land. There is nothing more valuable (and safe to invest in) in the world then dirt.


Wow, a real estate mogul in our midst. Can I be your friend?


----------



## Robert_G (Jul 8, 2021)

cygnusdei said:


> Wow, a real estate mogul in our midst. Can I be your friend?


I never said 'real estate'. I said 'land'. I'm not a developer, and I wouldn't even touch condos or townhomes or any other HOA. I would buy homes and acreages on freehold land only....and the parcel of land has to be a decent size.

I'm going to assume you are being sarcastic, so perhaps you can enlighten me as to why I should invest in something other then land. I'm not looking to be wealthy....I am just looking for a nice financial independence.

I'll explain to you why investing in land is the safest thing to do.

1. The rent from the buildings is so high right now and is very profitable...even if you have a loan on the place.
2. You can grow food on the land. Have you seen the inflation...and shortages too....recently in the grocery stores?

Investing in land is about as secure and safe as investing comes. When the inevitable crash of the entire global economy happens, I can still grow enough food to feed the family and more....and/or trade the surplus for other things.


----------



## cygnusdei (Jul 8, 2021)

Robert_G said:


> I never said 'real estate'. I said 'land'. I'm not a developer, and I wouldn't even touch condos or townhomes or any other HOA. I would buy homes and acreages on freehold land only....and the parcel of land has to be a decent size.
> 
> I'm going to assume you are being sarcastic, so perhaps you can enlighten me as to why I should invest in something other then land. I'm not looking to be wealthy....I am just looking for a nice financial independence.
> 
> ...


Oh it's just I thought 'real estate mogul' has a nicer ring to it than 'land mogul'. There are some wrinkles apparently, though. In Hawaii for example it seems that one cannot own land, but can only lease it from the government. Although the term can be as long as 99 years, the implication is that the value of your land depends on how many years are left on the lease, and once the lease is up you forfeit it back.


----------



## Daren Audio (Sep 9, 2021)

It looks like Sonuscore is jumping onto the crypto train....







Here's the link on their official website:
https://sonuscore.com/toe-civ-tokens/


----------



## Markrs (Sep 9, 2021)

Daren Audio said:


> It looks like Sonuscore is jumping onto the crypto train....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Never heard of $CIV tokens

https://www.civtoken.com/
Most of these type of cryptos are worthless as they have no innovation, just marketing, normally to make the creators very wealthy before it disappears.


----------



## emilio_n (Sep 9, 2021)

Markrs said:


> Never heard of $CIV tokens
> 
> https://www.civtoken.com/
> Most of these type of cryptos are worthless as they have no innovation, just marketing, normally to make the creates very wealthy before it disappears.


But is also the kind that suddenly grows a lot and you can make some profit. As all the Crypto is a lottery. I have some Bitcoins and Lumens and the fluctuation is crazy. Just keeping there in case someday I wake up millionaire... lol


----------



## Daren Audio (Sep 9, 2021)

Markrs said:


> Never heard of $CIV tokens
> 
> https://www.civtoken.com/
> Most of these type of cryptos are worthless as they have no innovation, just marketing, normally to make the creates very wealthy before it disappears.


Same here. Never heard of it. 

It will be interesting to see how this plays out with El Salvador adopting Bitcoin as official ledger. It's a BOLD experiment. 









El Salvador’s new bitcoin plan could cost money providers like Western Union and others $400 million a year, says President Bukele


El Salvador's bitcoin adoption could totally revolutionize the country's remittance payment rails.




www.cnbc.com


----------



## José Herring (Sep 10, 2021)

I put $20 on Etherium and so far I've double my money. Oh yeah baby! I'm on easy street.

Mostly I did it just to see what would happen. From my brief little experiment it's volatile. But, eventually does creep up about 20% a month on returns. 

It does seem though that it's an elaborate ponzi scheme though. I fully expect that some day the owners of Bitcoin are going to move to the moon with their trillions of dollars and the whole thing will collapse as it's revealed that all the Crypto currency eventually just went to one server in Japan owned by some dude that started it in his basement or something.




Daren Audio said:


> Same here. Never heard of it.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how this plays out with El Salvador adopting Bitcoin as official ledger. It's a BOLD experiment.
> 
> ...


This time next year we'll all be learning the El Salvadorian national anthem and singing it in the Stadium de El Salvador just before the World Series.


----------



## Bluemount Score (Sep 10, 2021)

While they are still a highly speculative asset, not all crypto currencies are about decentralized finance and / or about to replace the current financial system.
Decentralized video streaming (e.g. THETA) or a decentralized "Spotify" (e.g. AUDIO) are also a thing and those are just examples. If done right (not saying the two I mentioned are "done right"), I see a real use case in some of this that's beyond "banks and governments might ban crypto currencies because xy". Some of these projects are partnered with huge companies like Google or TikTok, which in some cases might lower decentralazation, but, in my opinion, is an indicator of durability and potential. Of course, the market still will be regulated, in fact it needs to, the bubble might burst, it might recover, but the technology is here to stay in one form or another.


----------



## MartinH. (Sep 10, 2021)

emilio_n said:


> But is also the kind that suddenly grows a lot and you can make some profit. As all the Crypto is a lottery. I have some Bitcoins and Lumens and the fluctuation is crazy. Just keeping there in case someday I wake up millionaire... lol



You have "some bitcoins"? As in "more than one"?


----------



## emilio_n (Sep 10, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> You have "some bitcoins"? As in "more than one"?


I wish to have at least one.  I have some $ invested in bitcoin. Not too much actually, just to try and play as I worked in the past for a company related to crypto.


----------



## Crowe (Sep 10, 2021)

I have a very limited amount of cash in Crypto and it's become even less. I don't understand the market and have decided to keep to general stocks. It seems like crypto is meant for day-trading and that's not really my thing.


----------



## bill5 (Sep 10, 2021)

Crypto is very speculative...I'm not knowledgeable enough in such things, nor can I literally afford the risk at my age. I have no expectations of being rich, but I would like to retire at a reasonable age and at least live comfortably. Big investment in crypto could have me living a posh life...or going "you want to supersize that" when I'm 80. No thanks


----------



## JeffvR (Sep 10, 2021)

Crowe said:


> I have a very limited amount of cash in Crypto and it's become even less. I don't understand the market and have decided to keep to general stocks. It seems like crypto is meant for day-trading and that's not really my thing.


It's definitely not only for trading. Bitcoins price during the years proves there's no other asset with bigger returns.
Price in 2009 - zero
2010 - less than $0,01
2011 - $1
2013 - $350
2017 - $1200
2018 - $6000
2020 - $19000
2021 - $40000

It's expected we could see a $1.000.000 bitcoin within 5-10 years. But oh oh it's so volatile :D


----------



## Markrs (Sep 10, 2021)

JeffvR said:


> It's definitely not only for trading. Bitcoins price during the years proves there's no other asset with bigger returns.
> Price in 2009 - zero
> 2010 - less than $0,01
> 2011 - $1
> ...


Trust and volatility are the biggest issue to its future growth. To be a true currency you have to trust it and for the value not to move significantly whilst holding it. 

I'm not sure Bitcoin will be the eventual winner in digital currency bit it had so far been through most accepted. I still think there will be new digital currencies that displace it.


----------



## Hadrondrift (Sep 10, 2021)

While these digital coins started out as alternative currencies, they are completely unsuitable for this purpose; the volatility, which is essentially caused by market manipulation, is simply too great. I do not believe that this will get better. Even the fact that El Salvador has approved Bitcoin as an alternative means of payment does not change this, as it is not widely accepted by the population anyway. If you don't have Internet access, cryptocurrencies are basically useless.

In the meantime, the coins are now called "assets" and the cryptospace has become nothing more than a big gambling hall. The entire industry was hijacked by dubious businessmen in about 2017.

That doesn't mean you can't make money here. But imho this is more a kind of gambling than investment.


----------



## JeffvR (Sep 11, 2021)

Hadrondrift said:


> While these digital coins started out as alternative currencies, they are completely unsuitable for this purpose; the volatility, which is essentially caused by market manipulation, is simply too great. I do not believe that this will get better. Even the fact that El Salvador has approved Bitcoin as an alternative means of payment does not change this, as it is not widely accepted by the population anyway. If you don't have Internet access, cryptocurrencies are basically useless.
> 
> In the meantime, the coins are now called "assets" and the cryptospace has become nothing more than a big gambling hall. The entire industry was hijacked by dubious businessmen in about 2017.
> 
> That doesn't mean you can't make money here. But imho this is more a kind of gambling than investment.


How is this gambling? With gambling you always lose long term, always. So far, as a long term investment you lost nothing with Bitcoin.. altcoins are more speculative of course, but the gains short term can be way higher. Look at ADA, once at $0,02, now around $2,50


----------



## Markrs (Sep 11, 2021)

JeffvR said:


> How is this gambling? With gambling you always lose long term, always. So far, as a long term investment you lost nothing with Bitcoin.. altcoins are more speculative of course, but the gains short term can be way higher. Look at ADA, once at $0,02, now around $2,50


When there is inherently little intrinsic value in something, and you are hoping for an increase based purely on demand (which can be driven by hype) it is often considered gambling from an investment point of view. In other words, your ability to predict the success of an investment is very limited to the point of it just being a guess.


----------



## JeffvR (Sep 11, 2021)

Markrs said:


> When there is inherently little intrinsic value in something, and you are hoping for an increase based purely on demand (which can be driven by hype) it is often considered gambling from an investment point of view. In other words, your ability to predict the success of an investment is very limited to the point of it just being a guess.


There's no intrinsic value in fiat money either...

Fiat money is a currency (a medium of exchange) established as money, often by government regulation. *Fiat money does not have intrinsic value and does not have use value*. It has value only because a government maintains its value, or because parties engaging in exchange agree on its value.

If all people on earth at once decide the $ is worth nothing, it's worth nothing.

Besides this, inflation is insane. 40% of the total amouny of $ have been printed in the last year. 

It's all a matter of trust. I don't trust banks.

Of course, stay away if you don't believe crypto has any value. And with bitcoin I agree with you to a certain degree. But look a bit deeper at projects like Etherium and Cardano and what they can do for the world.

Crypto is like internet in the 90s. Not widely accepted but it has huge potential. I'm curious how the future looks like and where this is going.


----------



## Markrs (Sep 11, 2021)

JeffvR said:


> It's all a matter of trust. I don't trust banks.


^ This. You are absolutely right that it is all about trust though remember before there was trust with Fiat money they were backed by Gold or Silver, though as governments are now more stable and the trust is there that is no longer needed. However, all countries still have both commodity and gold reserves to ensure a stable currency.

These aspects are not present in cryptocurrency, which is partly why they fluctuate so widely.



JeffvR said:


> Etherium and Cardano and what they can do for the world.


I agree here too, both of these have more inherent value as they have a stronger function in the marketplace. They are offering something new and have innovated. If I was to invest in crypto, it would be these types of "coins" as they have unique IP which does have an intrinsic value.


----------



## MartinH. (Sep 11, 2021)

JeffvR said:


> It's definitely not only for trading. Bitcoins price during the years proves there's no other asset with bigger returns.
> Price in 2009 - zero
> 2010 - less than $0,01
> 2011 - $1
> ...



Part of why bitcoin is very high risk, is that it's orders of magnitude more likely to lose access to your entire crypto wallet compared to having all your fiat currency robbed from your bank account. The high volatility isn't even the biggest risk imho. It's "being your own bank". If you yolo all your money to go #tothemoon, then #hodl my friend and good luck to you! I seriously hope it works out for you. 

To all the others I recommend checking out some real financial advice from Alpha Investmens and buying magic cards instead 



https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTp-iVOtTrKau0skmfZlo5Q/videos


----------



## Hadrondrift (Sep 11, 2021)

JeffvR said:


> It's all a matter of trust. I don't trust banks.


Yeah, I don't trust them either, but at least you are protected against complete loss.



JeffvR said:


> [altcoins] but the gains short term can be way higher.


This is why I wouldn't buy bitcoin at all nowadays. Altcoins with low market depth have higher volatility, have more potential for increase, but of course also more potential for loss if you fomo in late.

Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against crypto, I just look at the whole area with some distance. In the vast majority of cases, I don't believe in any "projects". These are often just tricks to make a manipulative price increase credible and thus suck in retail investors with their information disadvantage. The disadvantage is that retail does not know when the pump ends. I have been participating in the crypto world for many years and made profits, but I can say you are always at this information disadvantage. The real profits are made by those who can move the market. You can only try to swim along with the whales.

Many people have profits only on paper because they do not cash out. If ADA or SOL or ALGO or whatever coin asset just moved up, as long as you don't take profits and never cash out, the profits remain on paper. Anyone who bought ADA about a week ago is currently down 20% (if he/she sold). The market currently has still the potential to crash quite badly, where some see Bitcoin at 10k-12k and lower. That would kill the profits of all those who have bought since November 2020 if they didn't sell anything since then.

But since hodl applies, often no one sells, not even when he is 100% in the plus. Always only buy, buy, buy until? Yes until when? That is the problem. I can only advise to take profits and then actually cash them out, i.e. move them back to a real world account. This is sometimes more difficult than you'd think.


----------



## Hadrondrift (Sep 11, 2021)

Hadrondrift said:


> Anyone who bought ADA about a week ago is currently down 20%


Immediately my statement was refuted by a healthy ≈20% pump. Crypto is funny.


----------



## bill5 (Sep 11, 2021)

JeffvR said:


> How is this gambling? With gambling you always lose long term, always.


Lotto winners would disagree.


----------



## Dewdman42 (Sep 11, 2021)

Crypto is all nothing but a pyramid scheme. Good luck


----------



## JeffvR (Sep 11, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> Part of why bitcoin is very high risk, is that it's orders of magnitude more likely to lose access to your entire crypto wallet compared to having all your fiat currency robbed from your bank account. The high volatility isn't even the biggest risk imho. It's "being your own bank". If you yolo all your money to go #tothemoon, then #hodl my friend and good luck to you! I seriously hope it works out for you.
> 
> To all the others I recommend checking out some real financial advice from Alpha Investmens and buying magic cards instead
> 
> ...





3DC said:


> The five steps in the life cycle of a bubble are displacement, boom, euphoria, profit-taking, and panic. We are clearly at the end of stage 4.
> 
> That is why I am saving my fiat money for all those high end GPU cards and workstations people will sell for nothing once the "crypto" bubble bursts.


The phases you describe are all phases bitcoin has been through a couple of times. It recovers every time, like every healthy financial asset. A real bubble bursts, goes to zero and never recovers. So far, crypto is not a bubble, nor a tulip mania, nor a ponzi scheme. But of course those are descriptions the bankers want you to believe. I'm pretty sure after this bull run we will get a bear market with 70-90% corrections. What do you expect after 100's or 1000's% gains? I'm also pretty sure Bitcoin will reach $100k in 2022, will go down in 2022 or 2023, but never below $20k.


----------



## Celestial Aeon (Sep 19, 2021)

For me the main problem with cryptos is the environmental / energy issue. Some of the newer ones tackle it better, but as long as we are actually seeing people wreck the world in the poorer countries with just spending energy on pointless calculations just to get rich, it's.... Dystopian and cyberpunkish in a wrong way.


----------



## Flintpope (Sep 21, 2021)

Markrs said:


> Does anyone on here invest in Crypto? Do you see it as investment or a type of gambling where you are okay if you lose the whole investment?


I don't invest as such but I have started earning a small amount in Tezos via an art website I put work up on (visual not musical). My son has sold at least £900 worth of work so far and successfully traded it back into Sterling so maybe it is a case of so far so good...


----------



## LanceDonovan (Dec 27, 2022)

So, guys, what do you think of crypto now? I guess a lot of people have become disappointed in Bitcoin since its summer crash. I think it will go up. The thing is that each cryptocurrency has its cycle, so if it goes down it always goes up (and even higher). Luckily it's not the first bitcoin crash, so I’m sure it will go up soon. I’ve been tracking all of the trading data via personal area fbs android since 2019 which allows me to see each cryptocurrency’s cycle since that year. Anyway, I’d like to know what you think about it, guys. Waiting for your replies.


----------



## Flintpope (Jan 1, 2023)

LanceDonovan said:


> So, guys, what do you think of crypto now? I guess a lot of people have become disappointed in Bitcoin since its summer crash. I think it will go up. The thing is that each cryptocurrency has its cycle, so if it goes down it always goes up (and even higher). Luckily it's not the first bitcoin crash, so I’m sure it will go up soon. I’ve been tracking all of the trading data via personal area fbs android since 2019 which allows me to see each cryptocurrency’s cycle since that year. Anyway, I’d like to know what you think about it, guys. Waiting for your replies.


Still hanging in


----------



## Macrawn (Jan 1, 2023)

I'm glad I never bought in. I just buy my slow, boring dividend paying stocks.


----------



## Markrs (Jan 1, 2023)




----------



## Bluemount Score (Tuesday at 8:49 AM)

LanceDonovan said:


> So, guys, what do you think of crypto now? I guess a lot of people have become disappointed in Bitcoin since its summer crash. I think it will go up. The thing is that each cryptocurrency has its cycle, so if it goes down it always goes up (and even higher). Luckily it's not the first bitcoin crash, so I’m sure it will go up soon. I’ve been tracking all of the trading data via personal area fbs android since 2019 which allows me to see each cryptocurrency’s cycle since that year. Anyway, I’d like to know what you think about it, guys. Waiting for your replies.


Hanging in for the next cycle and perhaps beyond. I can wait.


----------



## Uiroo (Tuesday at 9:07 AM)

You all realize that you react to the thread because it was bumped by what is most likely a bot that has the only purpose to get people to invest into bitcoin so the price goes up, right?


----------



## gamma-ut (Tuesday at 9:22 AM)

Uiroo said:


> You all realize that you react to the thread because it was bumped by what is most likely a bot that has the only purpose to get people to invest into bitcoin so the price goes up, right?


It's the crypto way.

(I know, I'm now part of the problem.)


----------

