# Batman was superb!



## Evan Gamble (Jun 15, 2005)

I just got back from a screening of batman begins, and i just wanted to let everyone here know that they NEED to see this. It was better than the first, now i will admit that the score was basic, but it was emotionally efficent. The movie itself was superbly written, had great acting, and no CGI, so everything looked real. I say this was better than the first with the exception of the danny elfman score. :D


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## José Herring (Jun 15, 2005)

Cool. I was skeptical at first but I'll check it out.

Jose


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## Evan Gamble (Jun 15, 2005)

Folmann said:


> *HUMS DA DA DA DA DA DA DA DA DA*


are you referiing to that phat horn theme that comes through every so often?


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## Alex W (Jun 15, 2005)

evan gamble said:


> Folmann said:
> 
> 
> > *HUMS DA DA DA DA DA DA DA DA DA*
> ...



Yeah, the simple 1 to minor 3rd on the french horns. He makes it sound so huge, it's awesome.


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## choc0thrax (Jun 15, 2005)

The score has some nice moments scattered here and there but doesn't come close to the original godly score by ELFMAN. I like track 7 and soem other track that I can't remember the name to thanks to whoever the idiot that is in charge of naming the tracks.


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## choc0thrax (Jun 15, 2005)

Oh yeah and I like track 11- Cornholeius or whatever.


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## Alex W (Jun 15, 2005)

choc0thrax said:


> The score has some nice moments scattered here and there but doesn't come close to the original godly score by ELFMAN. I like track 7 and soem other track that I can't remember the name to thanks to whoever the idiot that is in charge of naming the tracks.



Agreed, the Elfman score is masterful, and untouchable as a Batman score I'd say.

On Batman Begins, I like track 4, "Barbastella."


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## Alex W (Jun 15, 2005)

choc0thrax said:


> Oh yeah and I like track 11- Cornholeius or whatever.



hehehe...

yeah, god damn - they are wierd ass names eh.


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## choc0thrax (Jun 15, 2005)

They are the names of different species of bat...


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## Alex W (Jun 15, 2005)

choc0thrax said:


> They are the names of different species of bat...



ahhh, well there ya go then. That's cool.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 15, 2005)

The man formerly known as the man formerly known as Prince wrote some really good songs for the first one.


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## Niah (Jun 15, 2005)

Another curious fact about the tracklist is that the first letter of each track from 4 to 9 make the word BATMAN.


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## choc0thrax (Jun 15, 2005)

Prince has written some good songs? I can't tell if you're joking from the lack of smileys.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 15, 2005)

No I'm not joking, Choco! The guy's incredibly talented. You don't think so?


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## groove (Jun 16, 2005)

loved the movies, very close to nowadays society...the score didn't convinced me so far exept it stick to the picture well but doens't have the originality of Elfman's...my opinion.

Folman i don't have the cd so i'm giving my opinion throught the screaning of the movie (witch is how most people will ear it !) i'm shure that when you take good care in listening, thecompositional skills of the two guys (HZ & JNH) comes out :wink: 

stephane


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## Dr.Quest (Jun 16, 2005)

Downloaded the score from iTunes yesterday. Very beautiful, atmospheric. Not theme driven but dark and moody. One of the few big Hollywood scores i've heard lately that, with I right libraries, I think could be duplicated without the real orchestra and not lose much.



> evan gamble wrote: had great acting, and* no CGI*, so everything looked real



Ahhh, the naivet? of youth. You realize those aren't real bats in the movie, right? :shock: The CGI is nicely integrated for sure.

Cheers,
J


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## Evan Gamble (Jun 16, 2005)

ok ill give you the bats but i was referring to this...

http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/batman%20begins%20stays%20away%20from%20cgi (http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed ... from%20cgi)


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## Dr.Quest (Jun 16, 2005)

evan gamble said:


> ok ill give you the bats but i was referring to this...
> 
> http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/batman%20begins%20stays%20away%20from%20cgi (http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed ... from%20cgi)



Yeah, that's pretty cool in this day and age. Location, location, location. That's a good thing!
J 8)


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## Niah (Jun 16, 2005)

I agree. Especially in big-budget super-hero hollywood flicks where cgi becomes the predominant force it's always nice t6a2 154239706444ef6e8386ddb.gif [email protected]öúgÞƒ&     ©ŒwH579bee7e 1957365900487091f15fcf7.jpg [email protected]öúhÞn&


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## choc0thrax (Jun 17, 2005)

Ok after seeing the movie and listening to the score more i've started to like it quite a bit. Theres this music that I like that comes on when Liam Neeson is onscreen soemtimes, you hear it in Lasiurus.


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## Evan Gamble (Jun 17, 2005)

yeah i really like the score, it just idoesnt feel as classy as elfman or goldenthal. Something about a more "live orchestra" based sound, and less relying on beats and phat bass synths, feels more classy to me. But it definantly got my blood pumping on all the action scenes..so maybe if it just had a little more color to it, with some woodwind writing i would be a little happier with it?

And I mean really, couldnt you just stick the score to crimson tide or any other MV score and it almost be just as good?


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## choc0thrax (Jun 17, 2005)

Crimson tide was full of manly men so it needed anvils and trumpets and mens choir. I don't know if this score would fit well.


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## choc0thrax (Jun 17, 2005)

Hmm I read your question wrong cause i'm half asleep. Yeah it was recorded with about a 90 piece orchestra but I think Evan knows that.


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## Evan Gamble (Jun 17, 2005)

i know.... saw a video of the recording session on amc..it still doesnt mean that there arent synth basses, and drum beats for it to rely on the "driving sound". There are more clever ways to orchestrate and get a driving force then... *starts beat boxing* :D

But it also doesnt mean that this music is bad..i love it..listening to it right now

just didnt feel it was best for batman


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## choc0thrax (Jun 18, 2005)

I would hope so what with Elfmans score coming out 16 years ago. 8)


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## Dr.Quest (Jun 18, 2005)

I think it's a great example of a very modern filmscore. The melodic development is so sparse and slow that it builds a cool dark mood.
Very cool stuff really.
J


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## Niah (Jun 18, 2005)

There's no point in comparing this score to elfman's or this movie to others previous batman movies. (Although it's only natural that people do it)

Tim burton brought the batman character to the 90's and within a new look and thematic music that marked a new era for the comic-book hero.
Danny Elfman was responsible for creating a theme that was immediately attached to the character for many years to come.

Batman begins is a batman of the 21st century, I mean, just look at the car!
The score is no exception and as the movie attempts to bring the darker side that Frank Miller brought to the character in the comic books.

We are probably witnessing a new era for Batman since there's already discusions about a sequel.


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## ComposerDude (Jun 18, 2005)

Folmann said:


> Yes. I wondered alot about the same. The majority of contemporary scores seems to be lowering the degree/amount of thematic material and aiming more for the atmosphere. I believe this is an interesting evolution. *While everybody clearly loves themes, themes are also demanding and obvious. I believe that its about the balance. Thematic material is important in order to connect with your audience (on a recognition level), but ambient/soundscapes are equally important in order to connect with your audience (on an atmospheric/tension level). The balance between the two creates emotion.*
> 
> I believe we will see many motion picture scores trying to find to counter-balance between themes and atmospheres.
> 
> ...



Folmann, excellent points. However, I'm wondering whether the distinction between theme and soundscape applications may be even more subtle. For instance, are there any examples of a beautiful, heart-touching _soundscape_ for, say, a romantic scene, in place of the proven Sensitive Piano Syndrome combo of piano and strings?

I'm speculating that themes not only "connect with the audience on a recognition level" as you well said, but also the _focused_ nature of the theme (and its accompaniment context) lets you go places musically that you simply could not with the more _diffuse_ nature of soundscapes. (I'm guessing happy/peaceful/romantic/positive would be harder to do in soundscapes, but would welcome counterexamples if anyone can suggest some.)

-Peter


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## ComposerDude (Jun 18, 2005)

Folmann said:


> What is a theme? Is a theme a recognizable melody with a distinct rhythmic pattern? Or can it be a signature sound or a collective soundscape?
> 
> So maybe the music is changing because the movies are changing?


I'd consider 'theme' to be melodic with rhythm and harmony, basically something one could hum if the theme was simple enough. A signature sound or collective soundscape might be more of a "logo" (as if we needed another word!) that signifies something (person, place, event, mood) and makes a statement but not so melodically.

Agreed: music does seem to be following changes in movie style, and also following changes in audience preference based on preview testing. A recent example is Gabriel Yared's score for Troy being thrown out based on an incomplete temp mix being played for some test audience. (James Horner rescored it in about 10 days, IIRC.) :roll:


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## choc0thrax (Jun 19, 2005)

I found a place to get that Zimmer/Howard interview that seems to work- http://www.cinemusic.net/blog/index.html click on Zimmer/Howard segment. I like the look on Howards face when the guy is talking about Elfmans original score and the beginning of the movie was just music and the audience was screaming.


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## Scott Cairns (Jun 19, 2005)

Thanks Chocothrax. Please say hi to your sister Anne-thrax for me. :lol: 

BTW, if anyone wants the direct link to download the clip to their hard drive its; http://www.cinemusic.net/video/amc_zimmer_howard.wmv


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## Niah (Jun 19, 2005)

Thanks choco and scott !


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## José Herring (Jun 19, 2005)

One of the best interviews to date. Very informative.

Thanks guys.

But, I still can't get into that music. I haven't seen the movie but is that quarter note marcato theme the main theme of the movie?

:roll: 

Jose


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## choc0thrax (Jun 19, 2005)

The easiest theme to notice is the sort of love theme. If you listen to the track Molossus theres also sort of a theme in there. Perhaps since this is Batman Begins the themes arent as strong but will become more prevalent and full blown in the sequels...or not. I dunno.


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## José Herring (Jun 19, 2005)

choc0thrax said:


> The easiest theme to notice is the sort of love theme. If you listen to the track Molossus theres also sort of a theme in there. Perhaps since this is Batman Begins the themes arent as strong but will become more prevalent and full blown in the sequels...or not. I dunno.



I shouldn't judge before I hear the whole thing. You're right. It's just frustrating working your ass off trying to come up with interesting music for the movies and here these guys are handing in well orchestrated quarter notes and bringing in millions. Bit jealous some people say. And, they would be right.

Jose


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## Scott Cairns (Jun 19, 2005)

So far, Ive only heard the music within the context of the film, not on its own.

I really enjoyed it though, I loved the blending of orchestral and electronic elements. The themes were fresh to me somehow, even if they employed fairly simple rhythmic and harmonic patterns.

Most important of all I believe, the music served the film very, very well.

I loved the horn motif that popped up a few times, so simple, but it made realise that our samples still have so far to go. The bloom and decay of the notes.... was perfect.


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## José Herring (Jun 19, 2005)

Before I stick my foot in my mouth(even further) I should probably listen to the score.

But, in terms of sound and fx in music I think in dramtic music that always plays an important role. It has throughout opera in it caries over into film music.

I guess I come from a school of thought where musical elements are important. And, the development and manipulation of themes is the hardest and highest skill a composer can posses. It requires you to know what a motive is, what lyrical is, in what ways motives can be manipulated and varied and developed in order to communicate more and on a more refined scale. 

Maybe in todays market place we should pander to the lowest common denominator in order to communicate to a mass market. What was interesting about the interview was that Zimmer does mention that the audiences aren't "getting it" when it comes to anything that doesn't completely hit them over the head.

Truth be told I'm totally not interested in most movies that are made today. I see my film music career as only a means to make money in order to support more worthy artistic endeavors. My only aspirations for film music is just to rake in millions of dollars per year so that I can funnel it into the art music scene and reform that. 

But, that being said I still hope to bring something good artistically speaking to film. And, I'm learning a lot about production in order to be able to bring that into what I do.

One good thing that can be said about zimmer is that anybody who can make whole note pads and quarter note themes sound as good as he does must be a master at production techniques because if you notice at the end of the interview when they have the orchestra performing the stuff in the studio it sounds bare and not supported and the orchestra is half assing the performance. So, he has me looking a lot into production and I'm getting better by the day at combining artistry and production technique.

Perhaps that's my ticket to the millions I talk about. But, who knows.

Jose


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## Evan Gamble (Jun 19, 2005)

i think the main theme would be that phat horn rioff that comes in during Mollusus..I love that part, makes me want to head bang!


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## choc0thrax (Jun 20, 2005)

http://www.rediff.com/movies/2005/jun/15hans.htm Another Interview.


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## Liam (Jul 1, 2005)

Folmann said:


> Yes. I wondered alot about the same. The majority of contemporary scores seems to be lowering the degree/amount of thematic material and aiming more for the atmosphere. I believe this is an interesting evolution. While everybody clearly loves themes, themes are also demanding and obvious. I believe that its about the balanace. Thematic material is important in order to connect with your audience (on a recognition level), but ambient/soundscapes are equally important in order to connect with your audience (on an atmospheric/tension level). The balance between the two creates emotion.
> 
> I believe we will see many motion picture scores trying to find to counter-balance between themes and atmospheres.
> 
> ...



Very well said. I'm with you on the score. I had the CD delivered the day the movie came out, and have been listening to it constantly lately. It seems to get better each time you listen to it!. On some tracks people may say that it's a bit "simple and not much is going on" but in the film it is absolutely perfect. Hell, I think it's great in or out of the film. It's not that often you get two well known composers of varying styles on one score!


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## choc0thrax (Jul 1, 2005)

I think they did a bad job on the cd. I have an 8 minute long track from the end credits which is great and should have been on the cd. :twisted:


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## Liam (Jul 1, 2005)

choc0thrax said:


> I think they did a bad job on the cd. I have an 8 minute long track from the end credits which is great and should have been on the cd. :twisted:



You know, I did think it seemed shorter than what was in the film. Where did you get the end credits track? If you don't mind me asking.


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## fictionmusic (Jul 2, 2005)

Folmann said:


> Totally agree Peter. I heard an interview with Hans Zimmer the other day and he specifically talked about the "obvious" part of music. Themes are obvious. They are recognizable. They are highly audible, which can create problems, if you movie have an ambient feel to it. Zimmer continued talking about how the music totally depends on the film.
> 
> A good example is BT latest motion picture soundtrack, which is a very interesting score seen from a subtle/ambient point of view. The movie did not have a demand for a theme. The movie had a demand for atmosphere. A distinct theme would have been misplaced in this context.
> 
> ...



Very interesting post Folmann, and one that I have often thought about too. A theme in my books is a motive and it can be as simple as an interval and as obvious as a big fat tonal melody. I really love some of the work of the Vienna serialists (namely Webern) as he dealt with similar topics. In his music themes are often so small and simply stated that they really were a redefinition of the term. One of the problem with tone-rows is that very often the themes are very brief. Once you accept that the theme may be only 1 bar long, the developement of them as well as the subsequent formal terms (like rondo, and Symphony) become obvious.

I know that for me, ambient soundtracks are more in keeping with what I like in soundtracks these days. The great big bombastic Romantic Orchestra score is so far away from what I like. Some of the directors I work with like that kind of thing for opening titles and closing credit roles, but in the actual context of the production, find them intrusive. One guy I work for said it best when he said that the dialog is the lead line, and the music is its accompaniement. I find that a lot of scores become so lead oriented that the dialog is very often buried. Ambient scores are able to convey moods without demanding the attention the dialog should get.

One thing I also find is the blurring of lines between sfx, themes, and ambiences. I often do corporate work and the jobs I am most proud of (and I think worked best) were ones were I was given total control of the audio events. Very often I have seen sfx guys come in and dominate a track with their literal translation of screen-sound (you hear everything you see down to an absurd amount of "accurate" authenticity). I have often winced as a cue I was proud of got buried in an avalanche of authentic sfx. On the other hand, I prefer cues where the music , sfx and ambiences all work as one, where "themes" are often sounds and textures, and lead lines are linking elements between scenes and dialog features. In my experience, it almost verges on Electro-Acoustic music and technique, and as such seems to work well when 1 mind is responsible for all.
Another thing I find these days is drum loops and patterns being so self-contained, that they function beautifully in the "lead-line =dialog, music =accompaniment" catagory. Often just a pattern playing subtly under a scene is more than enough to edify the point.

I don't see it as the film audience needs to have the music simply stated, nor blatantly obvious. Actually, I find the average person extremely media-literate, and totally aware of the subtle elements. Rather, I think that more and more film scores sound the same, and everyone is falling over themselves to write bombastic "trailer-sounding" scores. Maybe people are just getting tired of composer's foisting their "big-thematic" music statements on picture and prefer something that doesn't call so much attention to itself.


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## dcoscina (Jul 2, 2005)

Okay guys, I finally saw BB and you all know how I feel about Zimmer so..... I LOVED IT! This was indeed THE Batman film. Excellent story, good acting, nice set design and yes, an effective score. I actually, GASP, bought it. I really like that III-V motif- it's a brilliant idea in underlining the beginning of Batman. It's basic, but it perfectly works. I also like how Zimmer/Howard add the tonic in the climax of track 4 thereby lending a heroic tone to the music. This is a very effective score ALTHOUGH I would say there's a wee bit too much music in the film. After awhile I became desensitised to it. And the action cues are standard Media Ventures fare that I don't care for. But much of the score is really good. I love James Newton Howard's input, especially in the string theme which sounds like Vaughan Williams, especially in its modulation (on track 7 and 12). That is my favorite bit of music. Sends shivers down the back. Howard rules. I do wish he could have written the score alone because it would have had a little more dynamic range as oppose to loud and louder. But I give Zimmer props for using that minimalist string figure from The Ring as a basis in which to contrast the horn motif for Batman.

A- is my rating for the film because it does have some pacing problems.
B+ is my rating for the score.


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## Aaron Sapp (Jul 3, 2005)

I just saw BB again for the second time. It's a near perfect film. Only stupid part is when the batmobile gets lost in the darkness because he turned off his headlights. C'mon. 

I really appreciate the writing, now that I've heard it again. The simplicity actually adds alot. I got some serious shivers when that one fat chord strikes as Bruce 'faces his fears' with the bats circling around him in the cave. Goozbhamps. I think Zimmer/Howard had an advantage in their combined input - checking each other, seeing what works, seeing what doesn't for a scene as opposed to leaving the verdict to the director/producer. There are so many parts that work so emotionally well that for one composer to do all that - I dunno. The only composer that really pulls this off (to me) is Morricone. John Williams impresses me more than he moves me. Morricone moves me more than he impresses me, which is all the more impressive when you think how many movie composers move an impressive amount of people with their impressive and moving scores of doom. Impressive, the Batman score was in it's movedum.

Bedtime.


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## TheoKrueger (Jul 3, 2005)

I saw it without knowing that the music was done by Zimmer, just read it here now. I knew it wasn't done by Danny though 

It worked nice with the picture but i remember only one good moment which lasted 4 seconds or so ( 4 chords ) where Batman is walking away with his girl in the ruins near the end. Nothing too spectacular imo but i gotta see it again and pay more attention to the music to be sure.

It didn't have the unique and dark Danny feel though, i'm positive on that.


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## IvanP (Jul 3, 2005)

Liam said:


> For anyone who is interested, here are the definitions for the all the tracks on the Batman Begins score. Hmmm....clever of them (I think) :roll:
> 
> 1. *Vespertilio* - A genus of bats including some of the common small insectivorous species of North America and Europe.
> 
> ...



Have you noticed that from track 4 to 8 the word BATMAN is created? (Anagram with the first letter of the cues)

I saw it yesterday... loved it... It's the best one in the series to me with the 1st one...

And Zimmer and JNH's score worked flawlessly!!


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## Frederick Russ (Jul 3, 2005)

Its an interesting soundtrack. Seems that for the softer string stuff JNH handled things - almost Vaughn Williams-like passages with a lot more string programming then I've heard Zimmer use by himself, whereas the action segments seem to have been done by Zimmer with some input by JNH. They work well together.


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## Liam (Jul 3, 2005)

Frederick Russ said:


> Its an interesting soundtrack. Seems that for the softer string stuff JNH handled things - almost Vaughn Williams-like passages with a lot more string programming then I've heard Zimmer use by himself, whereas the action segments seem to have been done by Zimmer with some input by JNH. They work well together.



Hey Fred,

Love this forum, kinda new here but I'm sure I'll be a regular. I read an interview with Hans about the score, I was surpised to hear that they didn't work seperately at all. He said both of them worked on every track together, instead of splitting the action to Hans and the softer themes to Howard. Funny thing too, while they were in london in the studio, Danny Elfman was across the hall working on Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. They would joke with him and said "Do want to help with the Bat again?" He just jokingly said "No, thats your problem now".


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## Frederick Russ (Jul 3, 2005)

Love this forum, kinda new here but I'm sure I'll be a regular. I read an interview with Hans about the score, I was surpised to hear that they didn't work seperately at all. He said both of them worked on every track together, instead of splitting the action to Hans and the softer themes to Howard. Funny thing too, while they were in london in the studio, Danny Elfman was across the hall working on Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. They would joke with him and said "Do want to help with the Bat again?" He just jokingly said "No, thats your problem now".[/quote]

Hey Liam, nice meeting you man and great having you here!

Funny run-in with Elfman by Howard and Zimmer regarding Batman. Based on the soundtrack it appears that there is good chemistry between Howard and Zimmer - I hope to hear more from them as a team as well as any new music from legendary Elfman.


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