# Film Scoring: Logic 9 vs Digital Performer 7. which one do you use and why?



## dcoscina (Nov 4, 2010)

I feel like I have split DAW disorder (a variant of split personality disorder). I keep switching back and forth between these two. In terms of work flow, I'm most comfortable with Logic 9 and the film I'm working on I've already done 2 cues using Logic. But I keep trying DP because the main composer works with it and it would be nice to have the compatibility to switch files around between the two of us. I also love DP's marker and fit time feature. The ability to customize click tracks is also great (although I cannot get it to work for the life of me) and the "find best tempo" to match most of the markers is sweeeeet! 

I know there's a lot of power Logic users here (like Jay) who use Logic on a daily basis to score media. My question is, what does Logic offer over DP in this capacity (aside from a more stable platform and 64bit mode for loading lotsa AU's). 

I know i posted something similar to this awhile back so I'm sorry if this is too similar. I guess I'm looking for some feedback.


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## JohnG (Nov 4, 2010)

I saw you were having trouble with DP 7.21

Ironically, that's the most stable version of DP I've had since 5.13

As far as click track options, not sure which ones you're talking about but they are indeed fantastically flexible.

Lots of guys are using Logic and its 64 bit memory thing is just a huge advantage at the moment. Other than that, I am not sure whether there's a lot of advantage in Logic unless it has a better ability to print parts -- which if it did would be intriguing. DP is ok but lacks an articulations palette, which is close to _insanely maddening_.


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## dcoscina (Nov 4, 2010)

Oh, I have one thing to add. The irritating thing about Logic is that the count-off for the click includes the bar before. If I want to begin recording on a tempo change, like going from 90bpm to 120bpm, the click always counts off on the slower tempo and it's hard to begin playing/recording when there's no lead in. 

Am I missing something about this? I have tried editing/tweaking the metronome settings but Logic always likes to do a count in by measuring the tempo of the bar before the start point of one's recording. DP doesn't do this which makes life a lot easier when I'm starting a new section with a new tempo and/or meter.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 4, 2010)

dcoscina @ Thu Nov 04 said:


> I feel like I have split DAW disorder (a variant of split personality disorder). I keep switching back and forth between these two. In terms of work flow, I'm most comfortable with Logic 9 and the film I'm working on I've already done 2 cues using Logic. But I keep trying DP because the main composer works with it and it would be nice to have the compatibility to switch files around between the two of us. I also love DP's marker and fit time feature. The ability to customize click tracks is also great (although I cannot get it to work for the life of me) and the "find best tempo" to match most of the markers is sweeeeet!
> 
> I know there's a lot of power Logic users here (like Jay) who use Logic on a daily basis to score media. My question is, what does Logic offer over DP in this capacity (aside from a more stable platform and 64bit mode for loading lotsa AU's).
> 
> I know i posted something similar to this awhile back so I'm sorry if this is too similar. I guess I'm looking for some feedback.



DP has some major advantages over Logic for film scoring. And yet, I use Logic and did before 64 bit. Why?

1. I know it cold.

2. It is more CPU efficient in the number of software instruments you can run. If you don't believ me, ask Craig Sharmat and Bruce Miller, both converts from DP to Logic.

3. Better notation by far.

4. The Environment which if you know it gives you the ability to do some unusual things.

5. Best included set of software instruments and plug-ins, although that is less of a factor for me now than years ago.

6. Loyalty to the Emagic developers, not that they feel much loyalty to me AFAIK.

7. A general dislike for the MOTU people, who I have had some unpleasant tech support experiences with, not that Apple is any better but with Apple at least I have connections to guys the general public does not because of my long time relationship with them.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 4, 2010)

dcoscina @ Thu Nov 04 said:


> Oh, I have one thing to add. The irritating thing about Logic is that the count-off for the click includes the bar before. If I want to begin recording on a tempo change, like going from 90bpm to 120bpm, the click always counts off on the slower tempo and it's hard to begin playing/recording when there's no lead in.
> 
> Am I missing something about this? I have tried editing/tweaking the metronome settings but Logic always likes to do a count in by measuring the tempo of the bar before the start point of one's recording. DP doesn't do this which makes life a lot easier when I'm starting a new section with a new tempo and/or meter.



Yes, I hate that too.


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## dcoscina (Nov 4, 2010)

So there's no work around short of recording a bar xtra? BUMMER!

The 64 bit thing is less of a concern because I have Vienna Ensemble Pro which allows me to host all of my 64bit plugs. The notation feature I don't use as I have Sibelius 6 and import stuff from that. 

I do agree on the included plug-ins- they are terrific! I also use the Jam Packs to some extent, especially the World one since it actually does things MOTU's Ethno doesn't! Sculpture is also pretty sweet.

John, for DP, when I'm in the CLICK defaults where you can set up beats or patterns, I choose patterns and define the break down but DP seems to ignore my preferences and goes with whatever default it has...weird! I must be doing something wrong. 

DP7 I will say does seem to act up more than Logic 9. I cannot remember the last time I had a freeze or crash in Logic. I was doing that fit time feature last night and it crashed. Luckily I was just working on learning the program and hadn't gotten too deep into working on a cue. That would have pissed me off.


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## synergy543 (Nov 4, 2010)

In addition to DP's fit time (which is great for scoring) I also love its ability to so easily adjust the conductor track to free flowing performances (or existing audio tracks). This is something which I haven't been able to figure out in Logic 9 yet. 

Is there a way to do this in Logic 9? 

Can I play, say a free flowing rubato tempo, and then get the conductor track to match that?

---------------------------
Here's how I do it in DP:

Project Menu > Modify Conductor Track > Adjust Audio Beats.
Set for 1 beat at a time, preserve realtime performance.
In the conductor track, manually adjust tempo to match audio track.
----------------------------

The ability to be able to adjust manually is very important to me as it lets you get the timing to "feel right" as opposed to being just at the sample start point of a beat.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 4, 2010)

synergy543 @ Thu Nov 04 said:


> In addition to DP's fit time (which is great for scoring) I also love its ability to so easily adjust the conductor track to free flowing performances (or existing audio tracks). This is something which I haven't been able to figure out in Logic 9 yet.
> 
> Is there a way to do this in Logic 9?
> 
> ...



In Logic, we do it with beat mapping. I play in 1/4 notes on a cross stick along with my recorded rubato part and then tell the beat mapping to match the 1/4 notes. Then I tweak the resulting tempo map as needed.


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## synergy543 (Nov 4, 2010)

Thanks Jay. Although I'm not sure what a "cross stick" is? However, as long as there is a way to do this, I'll get your book and pursue it further. This is the one thing that's kept me from diving deeper into Logic. That and the fact that I'm quite happy with DP 7.2, but I like to be familiar with different tools.


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## JohnG (Nov 4, 2010)

I don't use the fit to time feature anymore -- maybe I should!

The complex meter thing is something near and dear to me but I admit I re-figure it out every time. I change meter a fair amount, and change the patterns fairly frequently as well, from 4+3 to 3+4 or what have you.

Anyway, perhaps I can stumble through it with you some time.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 4, 2010)

synergy543 @ Thu Nov 04 said:


> Thanks Jay. Although I'm not sure what a "cross stick" is? However, as long as there is a way to do this, I'll get your book and pursue it further. This is the one thing that's kept me from diving deeper into Logic. That and the fact that I'm quite happy with DP 7.2, but I like to be familiar with different tools.



A cross stick is also known as a side stick, C#1 in General MIDI on drum kits.

I don't cover this in my book. But I will be announcing my Logic Pro 9 Boot Camp webinar soon and we can cover it.


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## Colin O'Malley (Nov 4, 2010)

Dave, 

Regarding the count-in following a tempo change making it hard to enter correctly, here is what I do to work around that. You've probably already thought of this. I switch to a different tempo alternative in the lists/tempo which is a steady tempo. Get the entrance right and then switch back. 

Colin


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## synergy543 (Nov 4, 2010)

Oh I see what you're doing (sort of...) But how do you get it to play only quarter notes if you're playing say Chopin Prelude #1?

In DP, the quarter notes would be the click track and I'd adjust that to to the Chopin Prelude as I played it. It sounds like the concept in Logic is the same? Is it fast and easy to do?

@John - Adjusting the conductor track with tempo curves to match the timing or score makes it very easy to compose within DP. If I can't stretch far enough with tempo adjust, I'd just change the meter of a bar or two. Its an easy process to do while you're composing.

The neat thing about tempo curves is you can tweak the timing and curves until it feels very natural. I use a piano guide track to score against a straight click. Then adjust the conductor track for using tempo adjust and curves to get the timing just right. Its a different process than the free form tempo I'm discussing with Jay above although I suppose you could integrate the two possibly.

And like you, I figure things out as I go so its harder for me to explain!


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## c0mp0ser (Nov 4, 2010)

I use DP, and have used it since DP4. It was the first sequencer I bought, and just kinda stuck with it.

DP has had a rocky road with version 6, but now they've rose from the ashes with DP7.21 The most rock solid version to date, with all the features you need to score music to picture. IMO the midi sequencing tools in DP are the best (but that's probably just because I'm used to them)

Downsides of DP: 
1) It doesn't come with all the cool fancy plugins that Logic comes with.
2) Doesn't come with all those cool fancy loops that Logic comes with.
3) Doesn't look as pretty as Logic. (but the new skinning feature in DP7 helps)
4) Doesn't make you breakfast.


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## wolf (Nov 4, 2010)

here's how I do the count in to a new tempo without recording click as audio in Logic:

1) copy all tempo events in your main tempo list to an unused alternative tempo list
2) in the alt tempo list: set the tempo change to two bars earlier - record 2 bars of click (I use Klopfgeist) and place it at the 2bars earlier tempo change.
3) SMPTE lock this region and make sure it's exactly 2 bars long (Logic sets this automatically)
4) go back to your main tempo alternative - the region will not be lined up correctly and be placed somewhere before the tempo change (if the new tempo is faster).
SMPTE unlock the region - align the END of the region with the 1 of the 1st bar in the new tempo. o=< 

disadvantage: you can't use the built in click, since the clicks would obviously overlap. But it's really quick to create a click midi region and loop it. I use 2 click tracks: 1 for constant tempos, the other for new tempo count ins (so I can easily mute one or the other).

for slower new tempos: not the entire count in region will be placed before the new tempo change if you record the click as described in step 2. solution: record the count in click 3 or more bars earlier (depends on how much slower the new tempo is).

I know describing this in words only is a bit abstract. I hope this makes sense.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 6, 2010)

My solution to the DP or Logic question is easy-I use Cubase :wink:


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## IFM (Nov 6, 2010)

I have all three (DP, Cubase 5, Logic 9) so talk about multiple personalities! I always end up back in Logic just because I can run a LOT more in Logic than Cubase or DP. But to stay on topic on why Logic over DP, for me even if you ignore the better efficiency of Logic, the most maddening thing is that I cannot mute individual notes in DP. The second is (and Cubase has this) a form of retrospective record. What that does is if you were just playing over along with your playback and you linked what you did, you can just dump that into the track from the buffer. No need to have been in record!


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## tripit (Nov 6, 2010)

JohnG @ Thu Nov 04 said:


> synergy543 @ 4th November 2010 said:
> 
> 
> > Its a different process than the free form tempo I'm discussing with Jay above although I suppose you could integrate the two possibly.
> ...



I agree, this is one of my top features as well. I like how easily it is to move the bars to line up cue starts in the middle of a reel. I also like the fact that you can have takes in the conductor track, which I don't think any other app has.


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## JT3_Jon (Nov 6, 2010)

Logic allows you to have multiple different "alternate" tempo tracks as well (up to 10) and you can also "beat map" the tempo of freely performed passages as well.

IMO DP & Logic are much more similar than different, and non of the differences are game breakers in my experience. So my advice is to try them both and see which one you feel more creative in. I know this sounds silly, but I feel much more creative in Logic than I do in DP (though DP7 does feel much better!)


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## tripit (Nov 7, 2010)

JT3_Jon @ Sat Nov 06 said:


> Logic allows you to have multiple different "alternate" tempo tracks as well (up to 10) and you can also "beat map" the tempo of freely performed passages as well.
> 
> IMO DP & Logic are much more similar than different, and non of the differences are game breakers in my experience. So my advice is to try them both and see which one you feel more creative in. I know this sounds silly, but I feel much more creative in Logic than I do in DP (though DP7 does feel much better!)



Yes they are more similar than different and it is definitely personal preference. I was on Logic before DP, but it was a long time ago, Logic version 3. I had come from SVP and the illogical menu layouts in Logic were driving me crazy. I did one film with Logic and an orchestrator I know, convinced me to try DP. Although, I did print out all the score sheets directly from Logic - which was pretty cool at the time. I've toyed with the newer versions of Logic and the menus are a million times better now, so had I been using a newer version, I might have hung in there with it. 

Also at the time overall I found that I could create better in DP because the layout allowed me to work much faster. DP allows me to see large amount of tracks in the track overview at one glance and with large templates, I was able to see the score as a whole faster. But, I know that since then, Logic now allows you to resize the tracks down, so that wouldn't be an issue for me now. 

The other reason why I liked using DP was that it seemed to stream video better than any of the others I had tried. Again, that probably isn't as much of an issue anymore.

Each has a few little things that might not be in the other, or somethings are easier in one than the other. But, both serve well - it's just which one you feel most comfortable with, and both require time to really master.


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## dcoscina (Nov 7, 2010)

Well, I finished off my first cue on Logic 9 yesterday but started with DP7 for the rest of the score because the main composer knows this program inside out and frankly, I haven't used either DAW for film scoring apps to this degree so I went with DP. Gotta say I love the V-rack, the chunks and the SMPTE offset. No crashes today and I think using VE PRO rather than VI PRO inside DP is helping a lot. I love being able to load the whole movie and then set the chunk start time to Bar 1. I'm sure Logic has this feature but I don't have time to learn all of these ins and outs as I'm right in the middle of scoring a project. 

I do appreciate all of the feedback on both programs though. I still love Logic for many reasons but I'm getting to love DP almost as much for different reasons.


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## tripit (Nov 7, 2010)

dcoscina @ Sun Nov 07 said:


> Well, I finished off my first cue on Logic 9 yesterday but started with DP7 for the rest of the score because the main composer knows this program inside out and frankly, I haven't used either DAW for film scoring apps to this degree so I went with DP. Gotta say I love the V-rack, the chunks and the SMPTE offset. No crashes today and I think using VE PRO rather than VI PRO inside DP is helping a lot. I love being able to load the whole movie and then set the chunk start time to Bar 1. I'm sure Logic has this feature but I don't have time to learn all of these ins and outs as I'm right in the middle of scoring a project.
> 
> I do appreciate all of the feedback on both programs though. I still love Logic for many reasons but I'm getting to love DP almost as much for different reasons.



Yeah, the V-rack is great. Also I use chunks all the time. You can save just about anything as a chunk and then just drag and drop into a new session. Really powerful for template use. 
I just used SMPTE offset this last two weeks finishing up a score. The post mixer had decided for some strange reason that he was dumping the 8 sec academy leader off all 7 reels. 

The click options are also really well thought out in DP. You can set up just about any click feel against any meter in the click prefs, having a bunch of choices right at hand. I don't know if Logic has such deep click options.

And DP's video streamer options are great if you are using live musicians. Another thing I don't think Logic offers.

One other thing I really love about DP are the key commands. Completely flexible and user definable.


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## whinecellar (Nov 7, 2010)

Dragonwind @ Sat Nov 06 said:


> The second is (and Cubase has this) a form of retrospective record. What that does is if you were just playing over along with your playback and you linked what you did, you can just dump that into the track from the buffer. No need to have been in record!



Logic's had this for eons as well - the key command is called "capture last take..." (the exact name might be different these days). I can't remember the last time I actually hit 'record' while writing; I simply capture any magic as I'm improvising. It even does a form of this with audio as well... saved my butt many times over the years!


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## cc64 (Nov 7, 2010)

whinecellar @ Sun Nov 07 said:


> Dragonwind @ Sat Nov 06 said:
> 
> 
> > The second is (and Cubase has this) a form of retrospective record. What that does is if you were just playing over along with your playback and you linked what you did, you can just dump that into the track from the buffer. No need to have been in record!
> ...



Wow that's a great feature, you wouldn't believe how many times this would have saved my %@%$#. Even yesterday i must have lost 10 keepers because of that..I guess i should just always press record regardless...

I'll write a suggestion to MOTU ; )

Best,

Claude


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## dcoscina (Nov 9, 2010)

So last night I went back to Logic 9 because I needed to use some Sculpture sounds (wicked plug-in that is!) and was delighted to find that it could do most of what DP does. Gotta say that putting both of these programs through their paces has been quite enjoyable. No crashes on either side except Logic 64 bit does NOT like PLAY and specifically Hollywood Strings. So I used VE PRO for EWHS and everything was fine.

One thing and maybe Jay would know this: In DP you can tell it to record or play a region then stop after a certain point. I know I can cycle regions in Logic but for some reason cannot find a way to just record until the end of the region then stop recording altogether. Logic MUST have this feature, I'm just too dumb to find it...


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## Ashermusic (Nov 9, 2010)

dcoscina @ Tue Nov 09 said:


> So last night I went back to Logic 9 because I needed to use some Sculpture sounds (wicked plug-in that is!) and was delighted to find that it could do most of what DP does. Gotta say that putting both of these programs through their paces has been quite enjoyable. No crashes on either side except Logic 64 bit does NOT like PLAY and specifically Hollywood Strings. So I used VE PRO for EWHS and everything was fine.
> 
> One thing and maybe Jay would know this: In DP you can tell it to record or play a region then stop after a certain point. I know I can cycle regions in Logic but for some reason cannot find a way to just record until the end of the region then stop recording altogether. Logic MUST have this feature, I'm just too dumb to find it...



Yes. Customize your Transport to display "Autopunch" and "Sample Rate or Punch Locators." Then either type in the locators or use your key command to "Set Locators by Regions."


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## dcoscina (Nov 9, 2010)

Thanks Jay. One more quick question- I betcha it's a retarded one but I have to ask. Whenever I'm navigating around Logic, I find it hard to snap the cursor right to a measure. I tried using the SNAP feature but that's more when you're moving an object. In DP, or Cubase or Studio One, I have less of a time placing the start time on a beat or measure. In logic, I normally have to enter it in on the time display for it to land right on the spot. 

Sorry about these dumb questions. I've been living with Logic this long and don't mind it but if there is some easier ways to navigate around on it, I'm game. 

I will say that I really love exploding my tracks/regions to include Hyper draw info. I can line up two tracks and adjust information quite easily. It's very streamlined. And I also like how BIG everything is. My poor eyesight sucks and DP is very challenging in this regard. Some people might not think it's a big issue but to me it is. I only have two 22" Acer monitors.


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## EthanStoller (Nov 9, 2010)

dcoscina @ Tue Nov 09 said:


> In logic, I normally have to enter it in on the time display for it to land right on the spot.



Not exactly the answer to your question, but I just need to endorse one of my favorite Logic key commands here: "Go to Position," which I think is the forward slash by default. It's such a quick and easy way to navigate to a specific bar position. Just hit the slash, the desired bar number, hit Enter and you're there. If you need a specific beat within a bar just separate the two numbers with a period.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 9, 2010)

EthanStoller @ Tue Nov 09 said:


> dcoscina @ Tue Nov 09 said:
> 
> 
> > In logic, I normally have to enter it in on the time display for it to land right on the spot.
> ...



Exactly. never do anything with a mouse you can do with a keystroke or two. 

When I see someone operating Logic Pro and they are constantly moving the mouse, my reflexive response is to think "amateur." :twisted:


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## Mike Connelly (Nov 9, 2010)

Good point. One big factor with Logic is that it has so many functions that can be assigned to keyboard shortcuts. And many don't appear in menus. For any Logic user, it's worth taking some time and looking at the list of every key command and customizing all that may be useful.

I do wish more had default assignments, it would be nice to be able just learn them instead of having to find unused ones and assign them.


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## stevenson-again (Nov 9, 2010)

absolutely. my advise was always to print out the KC list and it put up in your bog. scan through it while you wait for nature to take its course and you are bound not only find something useful that logic can do but actually learn about stuff you didn't even know you needed logic should be able to do.

not only that, if you ever run out of bog roll......


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## dcoscina (Nov 9, 2010)

Thanks guys- very cool and I do some KC to a degree but this will help bigtime. And yes Jay, I would say I am a bit of an amateur in regard to Logic. This is the side-effect of having ADDD (attention deficit DAW disorder) by switching between Logic, DP, Studio One, and PT8. I've never spent enough time mastering one program, not like the old days where I just worked on C-Lab Notator. Luckily I have been focusing on DP and Logic specifically these days.


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## IFM (Nov 9, 2010)

whinecellar @ Sun Nov 07 said:


> Dragonwind @ Sat Nov 06 said:
> 
> 
> > The second is (and Cubase has this) a form of retrospective record. What that does is if you were just playing over along with your playback and you linked what you did, you can just dump that into the track from the buffer. No need to have been in record!
> ...



I know I use it all the time! I set it for a key command of Cnt-T...very useful.


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## Jimbo 88 (Nov 9, 2010)

Anyone have more thoughts on Cubase Vs Logic/DP7? i'm a windows guy and thinking about Cubase...


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