# Headphones or monitors? (with extenuating circumstances)



## bigcatJC (Jul 11, 2021)

OK, you've read this question a million times, but I have factors to consider. I CANNOT treat my room acoustically, and I have to cram my computer up against a wall (I know front ported monitors would help in this case, but it limits choices). Not the best of circumstances. I'm currently using computer speakers and Sennheiser HD280 Pro headphones. So...Under these conditions, would I be better off buying monitors or upgrading to better headphones, say in the $300 range for either?


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## topijokinen (Jul 11, 2021)

Headphones. I just bought Beyerdynamics DT880 + Sonarworks. Altogetger less than $300 and sounds just amazingly accurate. Got mine second hand as there are plenty of these on the market. https://www.sonarworks.com/soundid-...erdynamic-dt-880-pro-studio-headphone-review/

Other great alternative would be Sennheiser HD650, but its more expensive.


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## Nate Johnson (Jul 13, 2021)

headphones all day long. get something nice. I love my AKG k702's. 

Just make sure to _listen_ to music as much as possible, to understand how they sound. 

Then you can torque your own mixes to match.

Then check your mixes on as many alt sources as possible. 

Might not be for everyone, but I enjoy working this way!


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## cygnusdei (Jul 13, 2021)

My 2 cents: you should consider also how your audience would hear your music. So whether it's monitor or headphones, it should be as neutral as possible, because chances are your audience will listen through extra EQ/processing of their own. And in my experience EQ can be mighty unflattering to Vi.


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## SteveC (Jul 13, 2021)

Consider that you need a stereo field to imagine your mix properly - like in this drug video:


That's the reason why you should use both in my opinion.


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## Lurker (Aug 12, 2021)

bigcatJC said:


> OK, you've read this question a million times, but I have factors to consider. I CANNOT treat my room acoustically, and I have to cram my computer up against a wall (I know front ported monitors would help in this case, but it limits choices). Not the best of circumstances. I'm currently using computer speakers and Sennheiser HD280 Pro headphones. So...Under these conditions, would I be better off buying monitors or upgrading to better headphones, say in the $300 range for either?


Use small monitors like iloud for quiet monitoring as well as headphones.Bass traps bought online can be moved around and be easily put back into a cupboard.


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## tc9000 (Aug 12, 2021)

Monitors are less likely to damage your hearing over sustained, high volume sessions. I prefer headphones myself, but I'm careful to keep levels low and take regular breaks.


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## Alchemedia (Aug 12, 2021)

tc9000 said:


> *Monitors are less likely to damage your hearing* over sustained, high volume sessions. I prefer headphones myself, but I'm careful to keep levels low and take regular breaks.


Excellent advice. Good rule of thumb is with monitors the volume should be soft enough to have a normal conversation with someone in the same room most of the time. Otherwise, they're too loud. Headphones are more likely to damage hearing even at lower levels due to proximity. Exposure to sound levels above 85 dB (equal to a lawnmower or leaf blower) can cause possible ear damage with exposure of more than two hours, while exposure to sound of 105 to 110 dB can cause damage in five minutes. 
See this thread for more info:




__





Must Watch: Hearing Loss and Mixing







vi-control.net


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## bigcatJC (Aug 12, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> Excellent advice. Good rule of thumb is with monitors the volume should be soft enough to have a normal conversation with someone in the same room most of the time. Otherwise, they're too loud. Headphones are more likely to damage hearing even at lower levels due to proximity. Exposure to sound levels above 85 dB (equal to a lawnmower or leaf blower) can cause possible ear damage with exposure of more than two hours, while exposure to sound of 105 to 110 dB can cause damage in five minutes.
> See this thread for more info:
> 
> 
> ...


I agree 100%. I was fanatical about protecting my hearing in my younger rock band days, and now whenever I feel a little ear fatigue setting in, I take the headphones off and walk away for a break. In fact, I have friends and family who complain that I never turn my TV up loud enough. Maybe they've lost a bit of their hearing!


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## jcrosby (Aug 12, 2021)

If you're going to work in cans my recommendation is to use a really good crossfeed plugin. Humans don't naturally hear 180 degrees apart, width and depth can be hard to judge on cans... As a result some people produce mixes with imaging issues when working in cans that don't wind up translating well...Some people mix too wide, others too narrow... Corssfeed helps simulate a more realistic image closer to how we hear on speakers. CanOpener's my preferred piece of kit for working in cans, but there are tons of options available....


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## easyrider (Aug 12, 2021)

bigcatJC said:


> OK, you've read this question a million times, but I have factors to consider. I CANNOT treat my room acoustically, and I have to cram my computer up against a wall (I know front ported monitors would help in this case, but it limits choices). Not the best of circumstances. I'm currently using computer speakers and Sennheiser HD280 Pro headphones. So...Under these conditions, would I be better off buying monitors or upgrading to better headphones, say in the $300 range for either?


Post pics of your setup….no space is a lost cause for correct setup…


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## davidson (Aug 12, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> If you're going to work in cans my recommendation is to use a really good crossfeed plugin. Humans don't naturally hear 180 degrees apart, width and depth can be hard to judge on cans... As a result some people produce mixes with imaging issues when working in cans that don't wind up translating well...Some people mix too wide, others too narrow... Corssfeed helps simulate a more realistic image closer to how we hear on speakers. CanOpener's my preferred piece of kit for working in cans, but there are tons of options available....


Agreed. It's a relatively subtle difference but it doesn't half help translate your mixes to monitors. Behingers monitor 2 usb monitor controllers have a brilliant crossfeed function, as do the spl units that they were based on if you feel like splashing the cash.


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## bigcatJC (Aug 13, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Post pics of your setup….no space is a lost cause for correct setup…


There's no need to post pics, they won't help. It's just as I said: My desk is touching the wall and there's nowhere else to move it to. I can't treat the room acoustically. I'm sure that _any _monitors would be better than the computer speakers I've been using, but would I be better off with monitors and an untreated room or better headphones than the HD 280 Pro's I have? I hope that didn't come across as harsh.


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## mybadmemory (Aug 13, 2021)

I really only use headphones (AKG K240S) until I’m basically done. Then I sanity check on monitors, iPhone, and living room Bluetooth speakers.

I find headphones much more inspirational and immersive while creating. Monitors often reveal something I need to change afterwards though.


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## SupremeFist (Aug 13, 2021)

bigcatJC said:


> There's no need to post pics, they won't help. It's just as I said: My desk is touching the wall and there's nowhere else to move it to. I can't treat the room acoustically. I'm sure that _any _monitors would be better than the computer speakers I've been using, but would I be better off with monitors and an untreated room or better headphones than the HD 280 Pro's I have? I hope that didn't come across as harsh.


Slate VSX!


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## easyrider (Aug 13, 2021)

bigcatJC said:


> There's no need to post pics, they won't help.


You know best….😤

Top Tip: When asking for advice on a specialist forum, maybe listen to suggestions rather than close people off. Its not cool….and quite frankly rude…

People take the time to help others out me included, but it seems you have already made up your mind…


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## Minko (Aug 13, 2021)

Remember that some headphones need headphone amplifiers to really get them to shine. 

I'm a bit in the same boat. I can't work with monitors when our son sleeps in the room next door. So I use headphones a lot. 

I do have to really take care of not listening too loud and take regular breaks.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 13, 2021)

I'd personally much rather have speakers.

<$300 may be tough, though.


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## becolossal (Aug 13, 2021)

bigcatJC said:


> OK, you've read this question a million times, but I have factors to consider. I CANNOT treat my room acoustically, and I have to cram my computer up against a wall (I know front ported monitors would help in this case, but it limits choices). Not the best of circumstances. I'm currently using computer speakers and Sennheiser HD280 Pro headphones. So...Under these conditions, would I be better off buying monitors or upgrading to better headphones, say in the $300 range for either?


The most important element missing from this is "what are you doing?" Are you trying to create professional, release-ready mixes? Or are you just trying to hear what you are doing a bit better? If it's the latter, I'd go monitors all the way. Your ears and your brain will thank you.


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## Pier (Aug 13, 2021)

SteveC said:


> Consider that you need a stereo field to imagine your mix properly - like in this drug video:
> 
> 
> That's the reason why you should use both in my opinion.



You can alleviate that by using a plugin that simulates crossfeed like Can Opener









CanOpener Studio, by Goodhertz


Conjure speakers from your headphones.




goodhertz.co


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## bill5 (Aug 13, 2021)

bigcatJC said:


> OK, you've read this question a million times, but I have factors to consider. I CANNOT treat my room acoustically, and I have to cram my computer up against a wall (I know front ported monitors would help in this case, but it limits choices). Not the best of circumstances. I'm currently using computer speakers and Sennheiser HD280 Pro headphones. So...Under these conditions, would I be better off buying monitors or upgrading to better headphones, say in the $300 range for either?


Ideally you want to listen on speakers primarily, with headphones as a secondary/alternate check at most...but this has nothing to do with your room being treated. The treatment of your room (or lack of it) will impact the quality of the recording, regardless of what you listen to it on. As mentioned earlier, headphones aren't ideal as a primary listening source, unless you think most people listening to your music will be listening on headphones/ear buds and what people think about your music is the most important thing to you. Also there is the danger of hearing damage long term, even at lower levels.

Re particular speakers, the JBL 305s are about $300/pair and really good speakers.


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## bigcatJC (Aug 14, 2021)

easyrider said:


> You know best….😤
> 
> Top Tip: When asking for advice on a specialist forum, maybe listen to suggestions rather than close people off. Its not cool….and quite frankly rude…
> 
> People take the time to help others out me included, but it seems you have already made up your mind…


I'm sorry if I came across that way, and I haven't made up my mind yet. I'd rather use monitors. I would LOVE to know that monitors would work for me, I'm just wondering if it would be a waste to use monitors in an untreated room crammed against the wall. As I said, I don't see what pictures of my desk would help b/c I can't change things. 
Once again, if I sounded rude, I apologize and that's not at all what I meant.


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## bigcatJC (Aug 14, 2021)

becolossal said:


> The most important element missing from this is "what are you doing?" Are you trying to create professional, release-ready mixes? Or are you just trying to hear what you are doing a bit better? If it's the latter, I'd go monitors all the way. Your ears and your brain will thank you.


I'm strictly composing for fun, no professional aspirations at all. I do classical/movie soundtrack type of music, all virtual instruments. I may do live/real instruments at some point, but certainly not soon. I know that I get poor mixes with computer speakers and better with HD 280 headphones. I'm just looking to get the best sound I can.

bill5 suggest JBL 305's and I hear great things, but would front ported monitors be better against a wall than rear ported? I've heard recommendations for the Kali LP-6's, KRK 5's and the PreSonus Eris E5's. The Yamaha HS5's get good reviews too, but they're rear ported as well. If I'm wrong about the front port/rear port thing anyone feel free to correct me.


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## BassClef (Aug 14, 2021)

Like you... composing for fun with no professional aspirations... I use a pair of Focal’s lowest priced 6.5” monitors (Alpha 65) which are front ported, on my desk, fairly close to the wall. I specifically wanted sealed box or front ported monitors for tighter bass due to near-wall placement, and use a specific formula for the monitor placement and listening position. I also use two different headphones... Sennheiser HD650 and Beyerdynamic DT880Pro. If necessary, I could live without the monitors but not without at least one of the headphones! Currently, the DT880Pro is available at drop.com for only $195.


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## bill5 (Aug 14, 2021)

Since you're totally VIs, room treatment doesn't really matter.

As for rear vs front ported speakers, that's mostly a matter of minor convenience. With rear ported, you only need a few more inches away from the wall. I've heard mixed reviews about the KRKs lately...if for some reason you decide against the JBLs, the Yamahas would be my next choice...but that's me.

PS: if you get headphones, make sure you get open-back!


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## mybadmemory (Aug 14, 2021)

I would go for a pair of open or semi open back headphones and a pair of small front ported monitors. You should be able to get a pair of AKGK240s and a pair of iLouds for around €300 together if you shop around.


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## Trash Panda (Aug 14, 2021)

Kali LP6 monitors have front facing ports, are at your $300 a pair budget and have settings on the back to dial in when against a wall or on a desk to help compensate for the frequency impact that has.

You can use monitors in an untreated room. Just be aware of the buildup this can cause in the low and low mid frequencies. Use your headphones in conjunction with something like Realphones or Sonarworks + Canopener and a frequency reference plugin like Tonal Balance 2 and you should be fine.


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## becolossal (Aug 14, 2021)

bigcatJC said:


> I'm strictly composing for fun, no professional aspirations at all. I do classical/movie soundtrack type of music, all virtual instruments. I may do live/real instruments at some point, but certainly not soon. I know that I get poor mixes with computer speakers and better with HD 280 headphones. I'm just looking to get the best sound I can.
> 
> bill5 suggest JBL 305's and I hear great things, but would front ported monitors be better against a wall than rear ported? I've heard recommendations for the Kali LP-6's, KRK 5's and the PreSonus Eris E5's. The Yamaha HS5's get good reviews too, but they're rear ported as well. If I'm wrong about the front port/rear port thing anyone feel free to correct me.


I used a pair of first-gen KRK RP5’s (the good ones) for a long time. Mixed a lot of released stuff on them in a fairly live room (minimal treatment). Spot-checked on AKG-701’s and my car for reference - lol.

The RP5’s are front ported and would work pretty well in your described situation.

You can find the first-gens on Reverb fairly cheap. Or, depending on where you are, I’ll send you mine for the cost of shipping. They are in excellent condition and are just taking up space in my studio.


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## fakemaxwell (Aug 14, 2021)

I'd rather mix on $300 headphones than $300/pair speakers. 

Just get a decent pair and get to work, speakers arent going to make you write better music. When you have the ability to change/upgrade your space then splurge a bit on some nice speakers. Your room doesn't have to be THAT good either, "you must have a perfect room" is just as useless advice as "you must mix on speakers."


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## bill5 (Aug 15, 2021)

fakemaxwell said:


> I'd rather mix on $300 headphones than $300/pair speakers.
> 
> Just get a decent pair and get to work, speakers arent going to make you write better music.


Not necessarily. You may hear something that isn't working and adjust accordingly.


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## Trash Panda (Aug 15, 2021)

fakemaxwell said:


> I'd rather mix on $300 headphones than $300/pair speakers.
> 
> Just get a decent pair and get to work, speakers arent going to make you write better music. When you have the ability to change/upgrade your space then splurge a bit on some nice speakers. Your room doesn't have to be THAT good either, "you must have a perfect room" is just as useless advice as "you must mix on speakers."


There is not nearly as an appreciable difference between Sennheiser HD280s and a $300 set of cans as there is between those headphones and a decent set of monitors.


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