# The highs and lows of doing demos for a sound library



## Dear Villain (May 6, 2021)

I recently saw the thread in this sub-forum about working for free, and wanted to share my own experience. The need for me to share this story ultimately boils down to a desire to vent and seek closure for what was a negative experience. The story is obviously from my perspective, but I have absolutely nothing to hide and will share details as accurately as possible, including elements of the story that paint me in a bad light, not just the "other guy." Fair warning: it will be a long read.

A few years ago, I was posting and sharing my music on a forum belonging to a V.I. library company. I had shared my music there for years, and was met with the usual mix of fans and critics that most of us are used to dealing with. There were a handful of negative/critical individuals, taking swipes at not just me, but several other very well established composers. This negative energy led to numerous arguments/ad hominem attacks, etc. that ultimately started drying up the activity on that forum. I left the forum for a long while, and upon my return, sharing my newest work, I was PM'd by the company's marketing manager. He expressed a lot of positive sentiment re. my music, and even went so far as to tell me to ignore some of the naysayers as they were simply "jealous". He then offered me an opportunity to write a demo for a new library. Well, this entire exchange was too good to be true, and I immediately accepted, on the contingency that I would receive a NFR license for the library upon completion of my work.

Fast forward a bit, and the company was thrilled with my compositions. Over the next year, I did many other demos, for other libraries they were offering, under the same agreement. Along the way, most of the communication with this individual was professional, courteous, and timely. Occasionally, it would take some time upon submitting a work to get feedback, but generally, things went smoothly. I always delivered more work than I believe was expected, and did so in such a timely manner, that the individual praised how fast I work, and how "easy to work with" I am. 

At this point, I should mention: I never asked for any money, and there are two reasons for this. First, I was quite happy initially receiving licenses to libraries in exchange for my work. I saw this as a form of payment, which of course it is considering the value of the libraries. Second, I don't "need" the money. It is true that I am a full-time composer of classical music, and that I earn what one would expect to earn pursuing the type of music I do. I am financially secure for other reasons (no, not a trust fund baby! lol)

My motivation to continue working with this company was simple: I enjoyed the opportunity to showcase their libraries, of which I think highly, and I appreciated what I believed was good exposure for my own composition. Finally, I had a belief that after a certain point of delivering quality work, I'd solidify future opportunities with the company and become a more permanent fixture in the demo creation scene.

Things started taking a turn for the worse when the communication became less reliable. One particular piece was not up to their standards and I made significant changes. The marketing manager said the piece was much better, but would need approval from the company head. A period of weeks went by, with repeated requests for feedback...the usual song and dance response, with a non-comital answer. I let that one go.

Another demo, and I was told point blank: "we won't be featuring this one...we like your classical music pieces moreso than this style." Fair enough! No harm, no foul.

Next, I do some video demos, which take some time, of course. The marketing manager likes them, but wants changes made to the fonts, etc. At this point, I start to feel that I'm doing an awful lot of work and the "payoff" is not commensurate. I express in a friendly and honest way exactly what I stated above: I have happily enjoyed working for the company based on a license exchange agreement, but going forward, would welcome an opportunity for paid work. I said that even though I don't need the money, a part of me feels guilty promoting the idea of composers always willing to work in exchange for non-monetary compensation. Of course, there is value to the libraries, but after a certain point, it's fair to say that getting paid for significant hours of work might benefit composers who need to pay bills and put food on tables. I also suspected that the company paid other demo makers, some of whom are very well known. In fact, I communicated with a composer that flat out acknowledged that he used to be paid by the company, before they started only offering libraries as they had more than enough willing composers to accept this agreement. Anyway, returning to the story, the manager kindly expresses his appreciation for my work, but that the company cannot pay me. Fair enough...we part ways amicably for a period of time.

A year later, the manager emails me that he loves a new piece I created using their libraries (not as a demo, but simply as my own work to share on the forum) and offers me a free library, if I'd allow them to share the video I made. I accept this kind gesture and select one of their less-expensive libraries, simply because I hadn't done this project for them in the first place and didn't want to be greedy. In any event, such a positive interaction with the manager made me "fall in love" with them again.

I then was asked, after sharing a large-scale work on their forum again (simply for my own pleasure, once again) to create a video for it. I did so, and sent it to the manager within 3 days of the request. It never received a response, nor was the file even downloaded by the manager. 

Another moment of frustration, having spent 3 days creating the video for a piece and not even getting a response. But I let this slide also...

Then, the most recent and "final straw" experience occurred, when I posted congratulations on their newest library offering, stating that it would be perfect for a piece of mine and that I was contemplating purchasing it. 

Literally, within an hour of posting on their forum my message of congratulations, I received an email from the manager, suggesting that they'd be happy to provide me the library in exchange for a video demo. I was shocked because we hadn't communicated in over a year and I felt that my work with them was done for the reasons listed above...but it sure does feel good to receive such a message and to feel "wanted" as a composer. And so, against my own "stand" I had taken to insist on pay, I went to work again. Yes, totally my fault on this one.

I spent four days putting the piece together. My wife, who does a lot of my mixing/mastering, also put a day's work in. Remember, I'm "retired" from the ol' 9-5 and can start composing/working at the drop of a hat (barring family responsibilities, and the always massive quantity of in-progress projects). When the company comes knocking, I have always gone to work immediately.

I submitted the project using the usual transfer method, which documents receipt of the project when the other party downloads it. It is downloaded the next morning. No response though, even though most often in the past, the manager would reply within hours of downloading. 3 days pass, and I'm curious, so I email the manager on a Saturday morning. He replies within minutes stating he "must have missed it" and to send it again (even though it was confirmed that he downloaded it.)

I send it again and simply state in my email: "no problem. It may not be what you're looking for, as we didn't discuss any details up front. Just let me know if you can use it or not." I gave him an easy out to reject my piece, as I was afraid he simply didn't want to dismiss me overtly (as people would rather ignore things than state "no"). 4 more days pass, and no response to the follow-up. 

I'm definitely angry now, and I even emailed a fellow composer and he had similar experiences with the company in the past: communication wasn't always their top priority with composers like us. As a final "act of frustration", I posted the piece to my youtube channel with a disclaimer at the beginning expressing that the piece was written for the library, but they didn't find it satisfactory, and so I was sharing it on my own channel instead, as I didn't want the piece to "go to waste."

Within an hour of posting the piece, I receive an email from the manager, stating (paraphrasing here): I just got back from the hospital as I'm having surgery soon. I've enclosed a license for the library. I'm a little confused by your post on the forum, but I guess everybody is the king of their own universe. I replied to him that I don't want a license for their library, wished him well for his surgery, and agreed that everybody is the king of their own universe 

The funny thing is, he was posting every day regularly on his own company forum, responding to comments. He also responded to my negative video disclaimer within an hour, having just "returned from the hospital." But over the one week period prior, no communication...downloaded the file and then claimed to have missed it, etc. etc. 

(continued in next post...yes, it's that bloody long!)


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## Dear Villain (May 6, 2021)

So, why the heck am I airing my dirty laundry? Simple: I need to vent. I need to express my frustration with a company that I believe is incredibly good at what they do, with incredible employees, the manager included. I need to let people know that even good working relationships can fall apart. In this case, I believe I was taken for granted. I believe I devalued myself in their eyes by constantly agreeing to come back and "work for free" (yes, I acknowledge libraries are a form of payment, but in light of my stand earlier on, I probably should have never agreed to do anything further on the original terms...my bad). I also suspect that they take good care of their "A List composers" and see people like myself as interchangeable/disposable...after all, there's no cost to them to ask people to do demos. If they like it, great. If not, they've not had to pay a penny for what often amounts to days of work at a time.

Anyway, they're still a great company. I still love their products. I still appreciate the incredible work ethic and kindness of the manager. I chalk up this final interaction as one of "feelings getting hurt on both sides." I did take a shot with my video post, but I also know that my post was the only reason I even got a response. And as I listed above, this was certainly not the first time communication had failed.

For those that want to earn a living in the business, following my approach is not recommended. Fight for what you're worth. Set out the terms up front. Communicate professionally and follow through on any actions you have chosen to take. Respect is a two way street. If you feel disrespected, speak up, and try to hash it out. If the other party is unwilling, then you know what you're worth to them...walk away. Thankfully, I'm not actually in the business of earning a living from my music, and that may be why I'm actually contributing to the problem of composers having a hard time getting fair pay for their work. I've learned a valuable lesson here, and hope that this experience will help others to frame their work in a way that's fair and meaningful to all.

Dave


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## muk (May 6, 2021)

Yeah, it seems that VSL is not very generous to many of their demo composers. And, to air a completely personal opinion, to my ears the quality of their demos in many cases trails a bit behind the standards that other developers have set.


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## MarkusS (May 7, 2021)

Well, you lost me at "Second, I don't "need" the money."  , but anyways.. I have made demos for a few developers, including EastWest and it was always more of a fun thing, motivated more by an interest in what they were doing and new techniques they were developing than the actual license.

On a professional level demo composing for a copy of the library doesn't make much sense if you think about it - since it's so little money compared to a "regular" payment and when you are paid you can actually choose what to do with the money. It's also not really a good way to start or pursue a career, since it's ultra-niche. So once you see it more as a fun thing, I'd say it's probably best to take this a little bit less seriously and move on. I think it seems so important given that you are also looking for recognition here ("being wanted as a composer" as you say), maybe there is a good way for you to find another audience that enjoys your music.


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## Piotrek K. (May 7, 2021)

Hmmm. I expected something really bad, but it sounds that you've had perfectly healthy, respectful relation with dev and got a bit angry because communication was sometimes off? It happens. Your emails are not the only e-mails in someone else's mail box. It doesn't mean you are treated as "interchangeable/disposable".

In my day job I send a lot of emails worldwide. Sometimes people wait a week or so till I respond. Sometimes I wait a week or so for response. And sometimes I forgot about things or not get any info from someone as well. It happens. Hell, sometimes I can swear that I did something, but I didn't. Not because of ill intentions. Just because we are people.


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## Alex Fraser (May 7, 2021)

Is this the usual deal for sample library demos? A free product in exchange for a track? I often wondered..


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## Ned Bouhalassa (May 7, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> Is this the usual deal for sample library demos? A free product in exchange for a track? I often wondered..


I’ve done quite a number of demos over the years, and that was always the deal, although some smaller one-person operations might say, “choose any of our libraries as an extra thank you”. No money was ever exchanged.


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## Toecutter (May 7, 2021)

I always found this a travesty and don't understand why composers agree to work for free in exchange for NFRs. Yep you are working for free! The sample library is the product you need to demonstrate so of course you must receive a copy either way and STILL GET PAID imo. Don't fall for it! That's what happens when we put companies on a pedestal and glorify them... they will take advantage of starstruck naive people in any way that they can! It's about ethics. Not saying all devs do this but the ones that do... shame on you, hypocrites imo. Pay your composers and content creators!


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## Jdiggity1 (May 7, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> Is this the usual deal for sample library demos? A free product in exchange for a track? I often wondered..


Very likely that is the most common, yes.
I know writers who do get paid for demos, some who volunteer their pieces for nothing (though their name does get included in the track title), and others who receive free copies of the library in exchange for demos.
It's "all of the above", but will come down to the company and who's writing the demo.


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## Piotrek K. (May 7, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> Not saying all devs do this but the ones that do... shame on you, hypocrites imo. Pay your composers and content creators!


Why? Libraries can cost a lot and working composer can decide if this library is worth more than the time he/she needs to write a piece. If more -> grab a copy and do it. If not -> grab cash or walk away. From OP stand point it sounds he gave from him a bit more then he should. But he was ok-ish with that. So it's not company fault. This is business not charity. I'm not working composer, but it applies to all businesses. Cheap, young freelancers are issue only if you are bad at your work. For example I could score a movie for 100$. But you will get crap, not a score (if you pay me 10k it would be slightly smaller crap ;D).



Toecutter said:


> Yep you are working for free!


No. You are working for goods / tools that may help you in your further work. And I'm sure it is specified beforehand and not some dev trap.


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## Danilebob (May 7, 2021)

Piotrek K. said:


> Why? Libraries can cost a lot and working composer can decide if this library is worth more than the time he/she needs to write a piece. If more -> grab a copy and do it. If not -> grab cash or walk away. From OP stand point it sounds he gave from him a bit more then he should. But he was ok-ish with that. So it's not company fault. This is business not charity. I'm not working composer, but it applies to all businesses. Cheap, young freelancers are issue only if you are bad at your work. For example I could score a movie for 100$. But you will get crap, not a score (if you pay me 10k it would be slightly smaller crap ;D).
> 
> 
> No. You are working for goods / tools that may help you in your further work. And I'm sure it is specified beforehand and not some dev trap.


Idk. Yeah the libraries cost $200-$1000, but you don't actually EARN money by taking the demo gig. You save a potential purchase. Then you work and spend hours earning back what you would have spent on the library. Yes, the cost of the library MIGHT outdo the hours put in, but you are not a penny richer. You just saved yourself the cost of a library that you might never have gotten otherwise. It's like retail employees getting paid in gift cards to the store they work at

*edit: removed the wink face, it makes me so mad to see it. I'm so sorry I used it.


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## Piotrek K. (May 7, 2021)

Danilebob said:


> Yes, the cost of the library MIGHT outdo the hours put in, but you are not a penny richer.


Yes. Because you agreed to get paid in different, non-exchangeable currency which fills up your SSD instead of your wallet.


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## Toecutter (May 7, 2021)

Piotrek K. said:


> Why? Libraries can cost a lot and working composer can decide if this library is worth more than the time he/she needs to write a piece. If more -> grab a copy and do it. If not -> grab cash or walk away. From OP stand point it sounds he gave from him a bit more then he should. But he was ok-ish with that. So it's not company fault. This is business not charity. I'm not working composer, but it applies to all businesses. Cheap, young freelancers are issue only if you are bad at your work. For example I could score a movie for 100$. But you will get crap, not a score (if you pay me 10k it would be slightly smaller crap ;D).
> 
> 
> No. You are working for goods / tools that may help you in your further work. And I'm sure it is specified beforehand and not some dev trap.


Sure my friend, this is all down to the composer knowing what is best for him-her, not trying to shame or judge anyone here, I understand how these things work when you are struggling but my point is that *the developers should always pay composers real world money *to write demos or create video content for them. It's a moral thing. The library is a pre-requisite and nothing but a bonus imo. At least offer some cash compensation or let the composer sell the NFR? I never saw a sign at the local grocery store or drug dealer saying "We accept VSL samples" XD


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## Piotrek K. (May 7, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> It's a moral thing.


Now I agree with you. But morals are bad for business :(



Toecutter said:


> I never saw a sign at the local grocery store or drug dealer saying "We accept VSL samples" XD


Damn, I imagined that xD

- 5 ounces of that fine weed please Mr Dealer!
- It would be one Big Bang Orchestra!


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## Danilebob (May 7, 2021)

Yes, the composer can accept the library as payment. They can also accept no library as payment and just do it for free. It doesn't mean they should. And the developers would be wrong to offer such a deal. I think that's why people get upset. The developers should not be offering giftcards as payment for composers to accept. Devs should offer paid compensation. If they can't afford it and are just starting out, sure. But if that is the case, your sample library wouldn't even be that expensive?


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## babylonwaves (May 7, 2021)

There are companies who pay you for your demo work, not in licenses but in actual money. Others don't. The only definition for a good deal is that it results in a win-win and both sides are happy. and that has nothing to do with moral at all. let's be honest, that type of moral is a slippery slope. do you know a single e.g. musician person who didn't do _once_ something creative for somebody else and received a "creative" compensation? I don't. do you know a single craftsmen who didn't "help out" in his spare time and received something other than money in return? I don't.

@Dear Villain the amount of work that goes into a good demo is never worth the money (or the compensation you get). it's a thing you better do for an intrinsic reason.


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 7, 2021)

Dear Villain said:


> Remember, I'm "retired" from the ol' 9-5 and can start composing/working at the drop of a hat (barring family responsibilities, and the always massive quantity of in-progress projects). When the company comes knocking, I have always gone to work immediately.


This is exactly why I keep my regular career in place. I have the liberty of deciding who I'm willing to work for, and who I'm not. And at my point in the game, I don't need to work for peanuts just because I have to pay bills.


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## Dear Villain (May 7, 2021)

babylonwaves said:


> @Dear Villain the amount of work that goes into a good demo is never worth the money (or the compensation you get). it's a thing you better do for an intrinsic reason.


For sure, babylonwaves. My post articulates the reasons for choosing to work with them, and my reasons for stopping. Money was never the underlying motivator. However, I place a great deal of importance on courtesy, respect, and appreciation for one's efforts, and will always work harder when those elements are present.


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## Dear Villain (May 7, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> This is exactly why I keep my regular career in place. I have the liberty of deciding who I'm willing to work for, and who I'm not. And at my point in the game, I don't need to work for peanuts just because I have to pay bills.


As I mentioned, I'm in my early 40s, but retired from a day job. I did the whole, "make my fortune young" thing, so that I could be able to pursue music on my terms. Gigs like these demos were never about making money, but when I started to feel the relationship breaking down, I recognized that the other party probably had very little respect for me and my work, precisely because I was so often willing to do it for nothing. That's my fault for agreeing, and why I'm sharing the story so others don't blindly expect that their efforts will always be appreciated and/or lead to better opportunities. That is all.


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## SupremeFist (May 7, 2021)

Dear Villain said:


> As I mentioned, I'm in my early 40s, but retired from a day job. I did the whole, "make my fortune young" thing, so that I could be able to pursue music on my terms.


I think in this case that if you're allowing Big Sample Developer to ruffle your serenity like this then you're not quite sticking to the "on my terms" part?


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## gamma-ut (May 7, 2021)

Dear Villain said:


> The funny thing is, he was posting every day regularly on his own company forum, responding to comments. He also responded to my negative video disclaimer within an hour, having just "returned from the hospital."


In any business, you wind up encountering people like this (though gut feel is that creative businesses tend to wind up with most of them). They get sidetracked for whatever reason or just get snowed under with other work. When they reappear, instead of saying "I got snowed under; missed some stuff" they find a way to blame or gaslight the other party for their lack of communication, which naturally pisses off the other party even though saying what really happened will nine times out of ten elicit a "don't worry about it".

I wouldn't feel singled out. They probably do it to everyone who isn't paying them directly or has their boss's ear. Equally, there's no real reason to do more work for them.


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## Dear Villain (May 7, 2021)

gamma-ut said:


> In any business, you wind up encountering people like this (though gut feel is that creative businesses tend to wind up with most of them). They get sidetracked for whatever reason or just get snowed under with other work. When they reappear, instead of saying "I got snowed under; missed some stuff" they find a way to blame or gaslight the other party for their lack of communication, which naturally pisses off the other party when saying what happened will nine times out of ten will elicit a "don't worry about it".
> 
> I wouldn't feel singled out. They probably do it to everyone who isn't paying them directly or has their boss's ear. Equally, there's no real reason to do more work for them.


Bingo. The gaslighting was the final straw. The whole, "never show weakness, never apologize, never admit you're in over your head" mentality has always annoyed me, and when relationships, working or personal devolve in that direction, I'm out.


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## re-peat (May 7, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> I always found this a travesty and don't understand why composers agree to work for free in exchange for NFRs. Yep you are working for free! The sample library is the product you need to demonstrate so of course you must receive a copy either way and STILL GET PAID imo. Don't fall for it! That's what happens when we put companies on a pedestal and glorify them... they will take advantage of starstruck naive people in any way that they can! It's about ethics. Not saying all devs do this but the ones that do... shame on you, hypocrites imo. Pay your composers and content creators!



Feeling a bit pulpitty again today, are we, Toecutter? Who appointed you to decide when an agreement between a developer and a demo composer is ethical, healthy and mutually respectful, and when it is not? That’s _entirely_ up to them, I should think. If they choose to settle things with, say, a bottle of wine, a software license, a mere friendly ‘thank you’ or, yes, money, then that is their business and theirs alone. And if one of the parties is unhappy, for whatever reason, then simply draw a line under the collaboration and move on.

I do all my demos (and betatest participations) for free. In a spirit of cameraderie. Wouldn’t want it any other way. Strictly personal viewpoint of course. What anyone else should do, is not for me to say.

_


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## SquirrelMan (May 7, 2021)

Work like a dog, get treated like a dog. 
Act like a star, get treated like a star.


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 7, 2021)

re-peat said:


> I do all my demos (and betatest participations) for free.


Do you at least get a copy of your beta test software for free upon its release?


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## Toecutter (May 7, 2021)

re-peat said:


> Feeling a bit pulpitty again today, are we, Toecutter? Who appointed you to decide when an agreement between a developer and a demo composer is ethical, healthy and mutually respectful, and when it is not? That’s _entirely_ up to them, I should think. If they choose to settle things with, say, a bottle of wine, a software license, a mere friendly ‘thank you’ or, yes, money, then that is their business and theirs alone. And if one of the parties is unhappy, for whatever reason, then simply draw a line under the collaboration and move on.
> 
> I do all my demos (and betatest participations) for free. In a spirit of cameraderie. Wouldn’t want it any other way. Strictly personal viewpoint of course. What anyone else should do, is not for me to say.
> 
> _


Dude, you crack me up! I like how you purposely ignored the fact that I said *in my opinion *twice... not gonna bite though, I think you are cute a need a hug... here's some music to accompany:



My man WK got paid to write this track btw! XD It's one of the official VSL demos.

I don't know your relationship with the developers you worked with, you mentioned "in a spirit of camaraderie" so nothing wrong with doing a freebie for a friend! Though I always get paid by friends that happen to work in the same industry and hire my services. My point is that serious companies should have a budget (they used to??) for this. Spitfire pays composers, 8Dio has not always paid (a friend wrote a few demos for them and got a sample library for a very detailed mockup ) but they are now actively looking for demo writers to get into their payroll, something I find very commendable. Should be the norm imo


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## babylonwaves (May 7, 2021)

SquirrelMan said:


> Work like a dog, get treated like a dog.
> Act like a star, get treated like a star.


ist has nothings to do with that.


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## Dear Villain (May 7, 2021)

SquirrelMan said:


> Work like a dog, get treated like a dog.
> Act like a star, get treated like a star.


Woof, woof. This is some sage advice. I think Tom Hanks said this to his co-star on the first day of shooting that cult classic, Turner and Hooch.


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## re-peat (May 7, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> you purposely ignored the fact that I said *in my opinion *twice


I didn’t ignore anything. You gave your opinion — “Immoral! A travesty! Unethical!” — and I happen to disagree. I also think it's not for you to decide how other people should take care of their business.
That’s all.

_


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## toddkreuz (May 7, 2021)

i wish i had that much time on my hands.


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## Toecutter (May 7, 2021)

re-peat said:


> I didn’t ignore anything. You gave your opinion — “Immoral! A travesty! Unethical!” — and I happen to disagree. I also think it's not for you to decide how other people should take care of their business.
> That’s all.
> 
> _


You are not making much sense now XD You asked "who appointed you to decide when an agreement..." as if I had claimed to be the President of the Sample Library Demo Writers Guild (SLDWG) and spoke for everyone here. I merely stated an opinion (that you now acknowledged, thanks, and it's perfectly fine to disagree with, only to change your mind in the very next sentence "it's not for you to decide how other people should take care of their business" back at this again? I thought we had established that I'm not the President of SLDWG. I'm legit confused... it almost seems like you are trying to pick a fight or something. Why? Kersten? Yea I'm a converted fan but don't let that cloud your judgment, we're not discussing me, we're discussing the highs and lows of doing demos for a sound library.

I left the parentheses open on purpose. You know, you're really cute when you are angry


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## ProfoundSilence (May 7, 2021)

Piotrek K. said:


> Yes. Because you agreed to get paid in different, non-exchangeable currency which fills up your SSD instead of your wallet.


Like Chia coin a week ago?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (May 7, 2021)

It’s not just about the monetary value of the return for hours of work: you become friends with the developers, can have a little influence on the final version, become part of a demo-makers community. You also get some recognition by your peers and sometimes eventual clients (happened to me). And for me, it’s also been a great way to keep up my chops when out of work.


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## JGRaynaud (May 8, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> My point is that serious companies should have a budget (they used to??) for this. [...] Should be the norm imo


Some years ago it wasn't the norm and no company was paying their demo writers.

Fortunately some companies started to pay because they felt it was just fair. Now I think easily 50% of the companies pay their demo writers. To be honest, almost all the companies I work for now give me a NFR for the library and money to make the demo. Performance Samples paid me something like 1000 USD for my demo of Vista just to give you an idea. Musical Sampling, Strezov Sampling and others pay me too. I'd prefer not to say too many names of companies that pay their demo writers because most of them would like to avoid receiving 150 messages a day for demo writing.


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## Toecutter (May 8, 2021)

JGRaynaud said:


> Fortunately some companies started to pay because they felt it was just fair. Now I think easily 50% of the companies pay their demo writers. To be honest, almost all the companies I work for now give me a NFR for the library and money to make the demo. Performance Samples paid me something like 1000 USD for my demo of Vista just to give you an idea. Musical Sampling, Strezov Sampling and others pay me too. I'd prefer not to say too many names of companies that pay their demo writers because most of them would like to avoid receiving 150 messages a day for demo writing.


That's terrific, thanks for sharing! Sounds about right for a 2 minute track  Another demo writer for a big dev told me he gets paid $500 for 60 seconds and occasionally a walkthrough after the fact (dunno if paid or not) so Performance Samples is killing it! And that's a one man show... what can I say?










JGRaynaud said:


> Some years ago it wasn't the norm and no company was paying their demo writers.



I know you meant as a general point but "no company" isn't the case, at least it wasn't years ago. Spitfire, Vienna, Audiobro, Toontrack, ProjectSam and EastWest at some point have paid composers to write demos (confirmed by others). And to be fair to 8dio, a composer reached out on facebook and told me he was paid to write a demo for one of their flagship libraries. I know he's a member here so it would be cool to hear from him... 8dio is killing it too! *Everyone is invited to share their experiences, *don't be afraid of burning bridges, you don't have to mention numbers if you don't feel comfortable but please come forward and let us know if a certain dev is treating you well!

Back to my point, 10 years ago I wouldn't even consider that one of the well known companies wasn't paying their composers, because they were. I know a few of them now turned to the dark side and are offering the "exposure and goodies" deal. Which I find utter bullshit (my opinion btw, can't believe I need to keep repeating this in a forum). That whole thing about taking advantage of their godlike status and exploiting the little guy who doesn't know better. Stick together peeps...

It's unfortunate that I can't speak more openly about this subject, I've been talking to other demos writers and there's a market here and everyone could profit... composers would be paid fairly by developers and developers would get their money's worth from high quality demos. I think that's an issue with new libraries, the lack of good demos imo. No surprise that your tracks are always among my favorites, I'm happy to hear that Jasper values your work! He should!


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## David Kudell (May 8, 2021)

Part of it depends on where you are in your career and your workload. The fact is, it’s very hard to get people to listen to your music these days. Everyone is posting music and it becomes white noise in a way. So a demo track offers an opportunity to have other composers hear your work when they are checking out a new library. For me, that has allowed a lot of other composers to hear my music and I know this because they’ll tell me they heard such-and-such demo track. And that can lead to other opportunities in some cases.

My demo for Sunset Strings has 4,000 plays on YouTube. My one for Native Instruments’ Orchestral Tools bundle has 24,000. By far my most heard tracks (well, other than the Westworld one 😂).

So there are a lot of factors to take into account...money is one of the reasons to do a demo but not the only reason...its a short term benefit but other benefits to a career could lead to a much bigger return...

PS - writing a demo is also hard! And a good way to improve your skills as a composer. It forces you out of your comfort zone and requires you to explore articulations that you wouldn’t have otherwise...gets you away from just the legato patches.


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## Pedro Camacho (May 11, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> That's terrific, thanks for sharing! Sounds about right for a 2 minute track  Another demo writer for a big dev told me he gets paid $500 for 60 seconds and occasionally a walkthrough after the fact (dunno if paid or not) so Performance Samples is killing it! And that's a one man show... what can I say?


@Toecutter seeing Jasper's photo there is kinda not too cool... or at least I didn't get the fun aspect of that. Maybe you asked him permission to use his photo? You know photos also have copyright...
My apologies if I didn't understand the joke.


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## Toecutter (May 11, 2021)

Pedro Camacho said:


> @Toecutter seeing Jasper's photo there is kinda not too cool... or at least I didn't get the fun aspect of that. Maybe you asked him permission to use his photo? You know photos also have copyright...
> My apologies if I didn't understand the joke.


hey Pedro, love your music man!! You definitely didn't get the joke XD It's a well known meme that means the person is on top of their game or did something extraordinary, like *Jasper, a single person running a sample company, paying $1000 for a demo track, while other huge companies don't even let their demo writers keep libraries after the fact*, they get nothing but "online exposition" like a few thousand hits on Youtube or Soundcloud. Yep, it's one of the disturbing things I learned from demo writers that reached out to me, who are afraid of being blacklisted or get in trouble because they're under NDA. I'm gathering more information (like a lot XD) and thinking very carefully about what I will do next because I don't want to break their trust or get anyone in trouble but I also don't want people to be exploited like that. There's stuff happening that I can't tell atm but it's ugly and some big names should be held accountable.

Anyway back to my silly meme, it means a person is "winning in life". It's harmless and a compliment to Jasper. Regarding copyright, it's a very fact specific analysis, millions of images get posted on social media daily and reposted all over the internet. The image above was taken from a public profile on Facebook, where the image is tagged as public, and unless I was using it for fraud purposes, I don't need to ask for permission, it's fair use. Context matters. When I join a forum, the first thing I do is read the rules to make sure I don't do anything stupid. I'm reading Vicontrol terms and conditions again and there are no warnings and notifications telling me that I *must *only post content that I legally own or have the right to use. BUT it says something cooler:

"The providers ("we", "us", "our") of the service provided by this web site ("Service") are not responsible for any user-generated content and accounts ("Content"). Content submitted express the views of their author only. You agree to not use the Service to submit or link to any Content which is defamatory, abusive, hateful, threatening, spam or spam-like, likely to offend, contains adult or objectionable content, contains personal information of others, risks copyright infringement, encourages unlawful activity or otherwise violates any laws. All Content you submit or upload may be reviewed by staff members....... We reserve the rights to remove or modify any Content submitted for any reason without explanation."

In other words, Vicontrol is a chill place that *usually *moderates itself. Unlike some crazy lunatics that post(ed) in this forum, I wouldn't post content that could put Mike or anyone (even myself XD) in trouble.* I also don't want anyone here to feel offended, so I'm removing the image you didn't like*. My apologies Pedro!


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## Pedro Camacho (May 11, 2021)

Ahh Sorry! I am not a natural english speaker (from Portugal) so I wasn't getting the meme, now I see what you mean! Thank you so much and don't worry!!


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## Dear Villain (May 11, 2021)

As @Toecutter has an interest in the experiences of composers with sample developers, in terms of compensation standards and practices, I'd just like to add my two cents. With my initial post, I had no expectation of opening a discussion on the morality/ethics behind the agreements composers enter in to with sample developers. It isn't for me to decide what is right and wrong.

I will suggest, that in my opinion, many composers are easily subjected to less than favourable working conditions, owing to their own desire to work, the over-supply of talent available, and the belief that opportunities will lead to further opportunities. 

Coming from a classical music background, my work experiences apply to chamber music concerts, symphonies, pit orchestras, academic and other non-commercial performances, concert routing and touring, artist management, and government grants/commissioning programs. I have no experience in the film music world, commercial music, licensing (beyond library music), etc.

In my 25 years of interactions with organizations like the AFM, SOCAN, the League of Composers, etc. it appears one of the biggest challenges to the effectiveness of these organizations, is the buy in and integrity of its membership. Of course all composers wish opportunities were more abundant. Of course, they wish pay was fair. Of course, they wish they could pursue music full-time and provide adequately for their families. The problem is, employers and those contracting musicians for services are keenly aware of how little value many composers/musicians place on their worth. They are also aware that for every individual that turns down an offer, there are ten waiting in the wings.

The truth is, while I often hear about composer solidarity, standing together to fight for rights, etc. I don't believe most composers are willing to walk away from exploitative opportunities in the numbers necessary to cause a change to the system. As with my initial post, I took on these opportunities with the library developer, knowing full well that I wasn't being true to my own desire and past efforts to speak out about this very thing. In other words, I myself was being hypocritical taking on this "job", knowing I was doing a disservice to other composers that might also wish to be paid for their efforts. Once one composer is willing to do it for free (or a sample library), that becomes the standard. 

Distilling everything down to supply and demand, there will unfortunately be no solution to the current standards. Remember, even in the corporate world, companies rarely change practices unless there is a significant and media-driven backlash that paints their company culture in a poor light. The likelihood that the incredibly tiny, niche world of sample library developers would ever be taken to task for poor composer compensation is virtually nil. In fact, there is also, in my own anecdotal experience, a complete lack of understanding about the work composers do from everyday people. Our work is often dismissed as not being a real job, and/or indulging in our hobbies instead of doing "real work." 

All this means, is that it is up to the composers and musicians themselves to advocate for change. And since, most composers recognize the lack of "food for all", they'll smile to their colleague, tell them the colleague was right to walk away from the job, and then snatch it up from under them the next day. I know this sounds cynical, but I've seen enough freelance musicians scavenging for scraps in my life to know that this happens every day. And those in the position to employ musicians know this, which is why they don't offer more than they need to.

I acknowledge that these are my points of view alone, and that others may disagree. Further, just because I feel this is the way it is, doesn't mean I don't want it to change. I just have become jaded by the realities of the industry, which is why I decided long ago to pursue my art without relying on it financially (like so many others!)

Cheers,
Dave


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 11, 2021)

Dear Villain said:


> As @Toecutter has an interest in the experiences of composers with sample developers, in terms of compensation standards and practices, I'd just like to add my two cents. With my initial post, I had no expectation of opening a discussion on the morality/ethics behind the agreements composers enter in to with sample developers. It isn't for me to decide what is right and wrong.
> 
> I will suggest, that in my opinion, many composers are easily subjected to less than favourable working conditions, owing to their own desire to work, the over-supply of talent available, and the belief that opportunities will lead to further opportunities.
> 
> ...


Well said! Although we need some sort of standards, a collective change is still lightyears from becoming a reality. IMO, we've already hit rock bottom with the advent of royalty free music subscription services, etc (and I am guilty as charged, as I contribute to the problem). I think the key is acknowledgment and awareness, and over time, things will improve; in what way, I'm not sure. Me personally, I love working in the live theatre world, as I'm actually treated, and fully respected, as a "composer". If you're comfortable with your current musical endeavours, and find fulfillment, then you have struck gold. Isn't that success?


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## Samy Cheboub (May 12, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> I wouldn't post content that could put Mike or anyone (*even myself* XD) in trouble.


You are really good at it.
Some use a nickname so they can say whatever they want, make false accusations, claim they saw Superman fly over their house etc.
It's so convenient to be vocal about everything or everyone without taking responsibility of your words, whether on a personal (reputation) or legal level.


Toecutter said:


> Yep, it's one of the disturbing things I learned from demo writers that reached out to me, who are afraid of being blacklisted or get in trouble because *they're under NDA*.


Signing an NDA in which it is stated that the composer is not allowed to keep/use the library sounds crazy to me. If you accept that kind a deal, blame only yourself.
If a developer uses unfair terms, I don't think you risk much talking about it publicly.



Toecutter said:


> I'm gathering more information (like a lot XD) and thinking very carefully about what I will do next


It is just hot air.
To be taken seriously the least one can do is to act under their real name as anyone can create false testimonies/documents under a nickname knowing that they are not at risk. 
You won't do anything.


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## davidson (May 12, 2021)

Dear Villain said:


> they'll smile to their colleague, tell them the colleague was right to walk away from the job, and then snatch it up from under them the next day. I know this sounds cynical, but I've seen enough freelance musicians scavenging for scraps in my life to know that this happens every day.


To the devs who used to have @Dear Villain do their demos, give me a shout. I'll do them for half an NFR.


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## Dear Villain (May 12, 2021)

davidson said:


> To the devs who used to have @Dear Villain do their demos, give me a shout. I'll do them for half an NFR.


I love the smart asses on this forum. OK, I'll play along: Only if you use half the notes I would have used


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