# Melodies above C3 ?



## nuyo (Jul 2, 2021)

I was always unhappy with my mixes. For the last week I tried to only play bass parts under C3 (C5 for FL Users) and everything else above C5. My mixes sound much cleaner. I'm also analysing the music played on the radio and I would say that they aren't doing anything below C3 aswell. Could this be a guidline for Clean sounding arrangements ?


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## Al Maurice (Jul 2, 2021)

Hi @nuyo -- it's usually best to layer up your arrangements. C3 (around middle C) happens to fall within the chordal area. Below that try to keep the voices more open, as doing otherwise tends to make your mixes sound very muddy and lack clarity. If you investigate the overtone series, you'll find many instruments first have all the partials widely spaced around the fundamental, then you'll get the fifths and the 3rds. After that come all the other tones closely spaced together.

Once the lines going up into the higher registers, then the sound tends to become more strigent and weaker in the woodwinds and brass. At which point you'll need to start doubling in octaves, that's why it helps to keep the lines distributed. Anything in the natural registers can be easily blended in unisons, and that sounds satisfying and rich.


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## d.healey (Jul 2, 2021)

I think that depends on the music you're writing and the instruments you're using. If you want a tuba to play a melody you're unlikely to write it above middle C.


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## nuyo (Jul 2, 2021)

d.healey said:


> I think that depends on the music you're writing and the instruments you're using. If you want a tuba to play a melody you're unlikely to write it above middle C.


Of course but you wouldn't have a tuba play the melody in a full arrangement. I'm talking about a normal arrangement not a solo passage for a specific instrument. In the mountain king you only have low played melodies at the beginning. Once there are more instruments used, the melody plays much higher.


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## Kent (Jul 2, 2021)

nuyo said:


> I was always unhappy with my mixes. For the last week I tried to only play bass parts under C3 (C5 for FL Users) and everything else above C5. My mixes sound much cleaner. I'm also analysing the music played on the radio and I would say that they aren't doing anything below C3 aswell. Could this be a guidline for Clean sounding arrangements ?


are you talking about your mixes or your orchestrations here, then?


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## nuyo (Jul 2, 2021)

Both


kmaster said:


> are you talking about your mixes or your orchestrations here, then?


. A good orchestration means less mixing. It goes hand in hand for me.


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## EgM (Jul 2, 2021)

Well, there's no definite recipe for melodies range. You can listen to many different songs and have melodies played throughout the register. Getting a cleaner mix is simply getting the rest of the orchestra or band leave some room for the melody and counterpoint instruments.


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## nuyo (Jul 2, 2021)

EgM said:


> Well, there's no definite recipe for melodies range. You can listen to many different songs and have melodies played throughout the register. Getting a cleaner mix is simply getting the rest of the orchestra or band leave some room for the melody and counterpoint instruments.


That's what people say, but when I write a full brass chord with bass synths, choir and the main melody is played by the High strings in the last 2 Octaves, I still end up with a very muddy arrangement. I get much better results when leave evrythibg between C0 to C3 for the bass and chords + melody are played over C3.


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## youngpokie (Jul 2, 2021)

nuyo said:


> when I write a full brass chord with bass synths, choir and the main melody is played by the High strings in the last 2 Octaves, I still end up with a very muddy arrangement


Do you really need a giant sustain pad using (a) brass _AND_ (b) synths _AND_ (c) choir? Cause it sounds like you're forcing a ginormous tutti chord instead of a more balanced background or countermelodies...


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## nuyo (Jul 2, 2021)

No I don't thats what I meant by using C3 to split Bass and Chords. Sounds clean and you only need 1 or 2 brass voices and or strings + choir.


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## Kent (Jul 2, 2021)

nuyo said:


> Both
> 
> . A good orchestration means less mixing. It goes hand in hand for me.


well sure, but they're still distinct topics. 'C3' is not a mixing concept, for example.

But from the rest of the conversations it looks like you're more interested in orchestration/arranging (for recording!) than mixing (those recordings). In that case, I would highly recommend Henry Mancini's _Scores and Sounds_: 



Sure, he doesn't talk about massive hybrid percussion or dark subby synths, but it's still one of the single-best resources for orchestrating/arranging for the record.


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## mopsiflopsi (Jul 2, 2021)

In my limited experience (and folks, feel free to correct me if I'm saying nonsense), it also depends on what articulations and dynamics you're using. If your bass line and chordal texture blast out a constant ffff, it's not gonna help with giving the melody a chance to get the listener's attention. Playing those parts at softer dynamics can clear things up. Articulation-wise, short brass stabs or pizz plucks on the double bass tend to contribute less muddiness compared to long sustains (sometimes I find even staccato is too much). So yeah, it depends on a lot of factors. For starters, though, you can't go wrong with learning more about harmonic overtones. It's not a terribly complicated concept either.


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## pinki (Jul 2, 2021)

It's an interesting way of thinking about the problem. Normally mixes are thought of in terms of frequency and bandwidth but C3 to C5 etc is another way of describing a mix I guess. I'm not sure if it's any better at solving the problem though.


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## nuyo (Jul 2, 2021)

pinki said:


> It's an interesting way of thinking about the problem. Normally mixes are thought of in terms of frequency and bandwidth but C3 to C5 etc is another way of describing a mix I guess. I'm not sure if it's any better at solving the problem though.


A note is a frequency. Playing C0 and E0 at the same time will make the track muddy. Same goes for having 2 Bass instruments playing differet things at the same time. If it is orchestrated well you don't need to mix a lot. At least this is how I'm looking at it right now.


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## Kent (Jul 2, 2021)

nuyo said:


> A note is a frequency. Playing C0 and E0 at the same time will make the track muddy. Same goes for having 2 Bass instruments playing differet things at the same time. If it is orchestrated well you don't need to mix a lot. At least this is how I'm looking at it right now.


that's the thing: a note, unless you are playing a pure sine wave from a synthesizer with 0% distortion in any part of the signal chain, is _not_ 'a' frequency. It is a collection of frequencies all jumbled up together at different relative volumes and ADSR envelopes, based upon its source and its dynamic level (among other things). That's why, for example, a bass clarinet will mesh into a cello without having a distinct presence of its own, whereas a horn makes a 50-50 mixture with that same cello. 

Don't overthink it!


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## pinki (Jul 2, 2021)

It's an interesting approach no doubt. For me I keep the two processes separated but there are no rules!


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## Al Maurice (Jul 4, 2021)

It depends on what angle you take -- I suppose.

Are we talking about traditional orchestral/jazz like arrangements for acoustic instruments here or just plain issues with scoring with samples or synths, because the two are not quite the same?


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## nuyo (Jul 5, 2021)

Al Maurice said:


> It depends on what angle you take -- I suppose.
> 
> Are we talking about traditional orchestral/jazz like arrangements for acoustic instruments here or just plain issues with scoring with samples or synths, because the two are not quite the same?


The second one. All Electronic Genres like Cinematic, Trailer Music, EDM, Hip Hop, Trap etc...


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## purple (Jul 5, 2021)

nuyo said:


> Of course but you wouldn't have a tuba play the melody in a full arrangement.


why not?


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## nuyo (Jul 6, 2021)

purple said:


> why not?


Send me an example...


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## Kent (Jul 6, 2021)

Here’s one—winds, strings, brass, and a tuba all over the place!


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## nuyo (Jul 6, 2021)

kmaster said:


> Here’s one—winds, strings, brass, and a tuba all over the place!



Not that I would criticize John Williams but to my ears... I would say that this piece sounds very muddy when the tuba is playing. It sounds like they forgot to turn it down at the mixing desk. When I listen to it on my speakers I immediately want to turn down the tuba. Maybe it's just a taste thing. But it is something that I don't hear in music that is (in my opinion) well produced and orchestrated.


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## 6ambler (Jul 6, 2021)

Also be aware of the fact that different keyboards-daws-synths mark middle C differently..Some use C3 and others C4..
Also another thing has to do with overtone-series as someone already mentioned..When you play instruments louder it has more overtones...In some cases instruments that play loudly produce even louder overtones that can even clash with other chord notes for example..Overtone series is really good starting point for orchestration...Its not just some theory but physics law..


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## chrisr (Jul 6, 2021)

nuyo said:


> I would say that this piece sounds very muddy when the tuba is playing. It sounds like they forgot to turn it down at the mixing desk. When I listen to it on my speakers I immediately want to turn down the tuba.


For anyone like me, who's been given this note or similar from a creative producer, and knowing that you're referring to the Jabba theme, well... it makes me so happy!


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## purple (Jul 6, 2021)

nuyo said:


> Send me an example...


There are really no rules with this stuff...


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## nuyo (Jul 6, 2021)

purple said:


> There are really no rules with this stuff...



Amazing Brass but the Tuba is doubled by Horns and Trombones. And the Horns are the dominant sound source. And if I would e at the Orchestrating stage, I would delete the Tuba because it sounds fat but has to much mid lows for my taste.


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## Gene Pool (Jul 6, 2021)

nuyo said:


> Amazing Brass but the Tuba is doubled by Horns and Trombones. And the Horns are the dominant sound source. And if I would e at the Orchestrating stage, I would delete the Tuba because it sounds fat but has to much mid lows for my taste.


The horns do not dominate there even by half. Trombones and tuba do, just as one would expect.


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## purple (Jul 6, 2021)

nuyo said:


> Amazing Brass but the Tuba is doubled by Horns and Trombones. And the Horns are the dominant sound source. And if I would e at the Orchestrating stage, I would delete the Tuba because it sounds fat but has to much mid lows for my taste.


I'm starting to think maybe you just don't like tubas!


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## nuyo (Jul 6, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> The horns do not dominate there even by half. Trombones and tuba do, just as one would expect.


At the time mark that was send, the Horns and Bones are more audible than the Tuba.


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## Gene Pool (Jul 6, 2021)

nuyo said:


> At the time mark that was send, the Horns and Bones are more audible than the Tuba.


No they are not. You don't know what you're hearing.


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## nuyo (Jul 6, 2021)

purple said:


> I'm starting to think maybe you just don't like tubas!


I like Tubas. And I like Basses. And I like if they play Melodies. But not when the whole orchestra is playing. It is called BASSes so it plays BASSes. Everything else sounds muddy (to my ears).


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## nuyo (Jul 6, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> No they are not. You don't know what you're hearing.


So tubas have that much high brass sizzle ?


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## Gene Pool (Jul 6, 2021)

nuyo said:


> So tubas have that much high brass sizzle ?


Only trumpets and trombones do. After that the projection hierarchy is tuba then horns, all else being equal.


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## marclawsonmusic (Jul 6, 2021)

nuyo said:


> So tubas have that much high brass sizzle ?


In looking at the score, I am seeing 3 octaves in the brass - tuba and 3rd (bass?) trombone at the bottom, doubled by trombones 1&2 an octave higher. The horns are playing an octave above that. All at fortissimo.

What a powerful sound! You can clearly hear the tuba and bass trombone dominate... I assume that a lot of the 'sizzle' is from the bass trombone playing so low.


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## Gene Pool (Jul 6, 2021)

Hey Marc, good comments. Powerful sound indeed. By the way, those horn parts sound a minor 7th lower than written. I thought I'd mention it since I know you do a lot of score study and some of the older ones can throw curves at you by using instruments and transpositions we no longer use.

In this case it's even a little weirder since Wagner was trying out a notation experiment having to do with the horn instrumentation in this score. It was confusing, though, and I don't think he ever did it again after _Lohengrin_.


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## marclawsonmusic (Jul 7, 2021)

@Gene Pool, that's an important clarification - thanks!!! At first glance, it appeared to be an octave higher, but even with F horns that would have been wrong - oops. 

On second review, it looks like those horns are doubling the top trombone line - so the whole thing is just a powerful massive octave. So effective!


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