# Automatic film scorer?



## Guy Bacos (Jan 2, 2010)

An off the wall idea here, I thought this could be interesting for very low budget movies or short films, documentaries, home movies, etc... Maybe this already exist, I don't know, just toying with the idea.

Imagine a bank of hundreds of styles of music and for each style you'd have 25 options, ex. 25 impressionistic pieces, 25 country western pieces etc.

Let's say your short film is 30 min in duration. You would program from 

start to 32s Ragtime music
33s to 38s no music
39s to 2:31 light scary music
2:32 Big hit!
2:57 to 4:32 Running water type music


Once all the cues programed, press play and you have a score following the timecode of your project. If you don't like something, say the ragtime piece, you still have 24 others to choose from, so instead of A-1 you try A-2 or A-3 to A-25. You would have different options for transitions, the most common one would be fade out/fade in. This would not be meant to replace composers such as on this forum, but for people who simply can't afford to pay for music. The software would not be free of course but an interesting investment for the amateur film maker. All the music would be original or public domain pieces programmed specifically for this.

What do you think? Any ideas?


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## choc0thrax (Jan 2, 2010)

They could just hire TheHeresy, he'd do it for free and it'd be even cheaper than buying this software.


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## rgames (Jan 2, 2010)

Isn't that basically what Cinescore is? Not sure if it covers the pop styles but there are plenty of loop libraries for that.

rgames


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 2, 2010)

The idea is that it's not just a bank of music, it's a software that makes it easy to make changes, switch pieces, hits etc.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 2, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Sun Jan 03 said:


> They could just hire TheHeresy, he'd do it for free and it'd be even cheaper than buying this software.



I never heard of anybody who works for free.


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## rgames (Jan 2, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Sun Jan 03 said:


> The idea is that it's not just a bank of music, it's a software that makes it easy to move around cues and pieces specifically to your movie.



Yeah - I think that's basically Cinescore. It has a library of a bunch of moods/styles and you can piece together some underscore that will automatically expand/shrink as you change the attached visuals. I think it basically uses Acidized wav files and time stretches within some limits and adds more "parts" if it exceeds those limits.

Not completely familiar with it but it sounds kind of like what you're describing.

rgames


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 2, 2010)

Ok, well in that case, I'm glad I didn't invest $100.000. in this.

Thanks rgames. :D


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## rgames (Jan 3, 2010)

It's a Sony product and I think you can download a demo somewhere.

Might still be worth your investment, so check out the demo 

rgames


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## midphase (Jan 3, 2010)

" This would not be meant to replace composers such as on this forum, but for people who simply can't afford to pay for music."

Great...let's come up with a better mouse trap to kill composers.

Guy, I don't know what planet you're living in or how you make your living, but I assure you that the moment someone comes up with the software that actually works and sounds decent (Cinescore and SonicFire Pro both sound like ass...thank god), producers will start using it on all sorts of films, not just the ones without a music budget.

In case you haven't noticed, producers (and some directors) will sell their mothers if it means saving money on making a film. Composers are frontline targets and pretty much the only reason why producers are willing to put up with us is because there's not yet a viable alternative.


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## germancomponist (Jan 3, 2010)

And Magix music maker is on the same way I think.

I am sure, in 10 years or more there will be much software on the market where you can do exactly this. 

The computer / programms have killed so many jobs, and it goes on and on.

When I think only 20 years ago on most partys there were live-bands playing. Then the one-man-bands came out with their "modern keyboards" and vocal-harmonizers, and now on the most partys there are only DJ`s with their laptops..... .


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 3, 2010)

Midphase, you're funny dude, you are willing to approve samples which virtually eliminates live musician, but you don't care about that, you just care about composers.

So what planet are YOU from?

Second of all, this idea could never in a million years replace a taylor made score, the same way samples will never replace a real orchestra. It was meant for minor projects, like home movies, students short films, as I had explained in my opening.

And lastly, for a change you might want to say something positive about me, you are constantly negative in all your responses to me.


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## germancomponist (Jan 3, 2010)

...this idea could never in a million years replace a taylor made score" .

True!

But let us all hope that in this time humans are on the planet who can hear the different... .Sometimes I think many people can`t it in these days... . :-D


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## mf (Jan 3, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Sun Jan 03 said:


> Midphase, you're funny dude, you are willing to approve samples which virtually eliminates live musician, but you don't care about that, you just care about composers.
> 
> So what planet are YOU from?


Most likely he is from the Composers planet.
May I ask why do you resent the lack of such a software?


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 3, 2010)

mf @ Sun Jan 03 said:


> Guy Bacos @ Sun Jan 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Midphase, you're funny dude, you are willing to approve samples which virtually eliminates live musician, but you don't care about that, you just care about composers.
> ...



What are you talking about? I'm the one who is suggesting this


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## mf (Jan 3, 2010)

Exactly. Why? Why do you need an automatic film scorer?


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 3, 2010)

mf @ Sun Jan 03 said:


> Exactly. Why? Why do you need an automatic film scorer?



I mentioned twice, for who this is intended.


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## mf (Jan 3, 2010)

I didn't ask who would benefit from such a software, that's pretty obvious. My question was very clear and specific. But never mind.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 3, 2010)

I have friends who make home movies, I myself have a hobby of making home movies with mac/Imovie 9. Do you think I'm going to score these home movies? I don't have time for that, I just use random music, and most people will never pay money for music for these amateur films anyway, but they may feel this is a software that will be worthwhile on the long run since it's very practical. It would be complimentary to all these video softwares. If you've ever done a video montage, you would probably appreciate this idea.


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## A/V4U (Jan 3, 2010)

Guy, mf, no hard feelings. This is just discusion. It's like that....somebody invent something and deepends if it's gonna find use or useless. Look example...Live Band> Dj....they all have their place, right? Composer> Loops [ACID]...never replace composer, helping compose...have own place and use. I was pro-musicien for many years [now retired!! :D ] brought up " in bigband".....end up playing trio with sequencers....well well 
Se Lavi


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## Niah (Jan 3, 2010)

If it's a home movie I can't see why people wouldn't simply use some music from their music collection. 

Nevertheless famous Vloggers and Youtube users which can't do that for copyright reasons mostly use incompetech.com which is pretty popular by now, if offers royalty free music free for download. It wouldn't surprise me if film students are using it too.

People in here use sample libs and music technology because most of the times they work in projects where there isn't budget for a live orchestra or even a few live musos. Or there is but the filmmakers will just go "oh it sounds good enough like that". It's like midphase says if they can save some cash they will. So we use it by necessity not ideology.

But who do you think created these tools? Live musicians? :wink: 

On a further note I think you failed to see the irony of this thread that midhpase and mf pointed out, I mean you are a composer suggesting this idea and asking for opinions in a composer's forum. What reactions are you expecting? Besides we aren't really the "target audience" for such an idea/product are we? :wink: 

But again I'm not trying to discourage you from this in any way, but if you do move forward it seems that you have quite a competition out there.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 3, 2010)

A/V4U @ Sun Jan 03 said:


> Guy, mf, no hard feelings. This is just discusion. It's like that....somebody invent something and deepends if it's gonna find use or useless. Look example...Live Band> Dj....they all have their place, right? Composer> Loops [ACID]...never replace composer, helping compose...have own place and use. I was pro-musicien for many years [now retired!! :D ] brought up " in bigband".....end up playing trio with sequencers....well well
> Se Lavi



Thanks A/V4U, makes perfect sense. I thought a musician never retires 

Happy new year o-[][]-o


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## midphase (Jan 3, 2010)

"Midphase, you're funny dude, you are willing to approve samples which virtually eliminates live musician, but you don't care about that, you just care about composers."

Actually I have criticized some of the trends in more and more realistic samples, but ultimately, since I don't make a living as a performer, I feel less passionate about the sample libraries issue than I do about the systematic destruction of the role of composers in films (of all budgets).


"So what planet are YOU from?"

Planet Hollywood? (the restaurant chain, not the actual orbiting body)

"Second of all, this idea could never in a million years replace a taylor made score, the same way samples will never replace a real orchestra. It was meant for minor projects, like home movies, students short films, as I had explained in my opening."

I remeòv‘   ¼þÚv‘   ¼þÛv‘   ¼þÜv‘   ¼þÝv’   ¼þÞv’   ¼þßv’   ¼þàv’   ¼þáv’   ¼þâv’   ¼þãv’   ¼þäv’   ¼þåv’   ¼þæv’   ¼þçv’   ¼þèv’   ¼þév’   ¼þêv’   ¼þëv’   ¼þìv’   ¼þív’   ¼þîv’   ¼þïv’   ¼þðv’   ¼þñv’   ¼þòv’   ¼þóv’   ¼þôv’   ¼þõv’   ¼þöv’   ¼þ÷v’   ¼þøv’   ¼þùv’   ¼þúv’   ¼þûv’   ¼þüv’   ¼þýv’   ¼þþv’   ¼þÿv’   ¼ÿ v’   ¼ÿv’   ¼ÿv’   ¼ÿv’   ¼ÿv’   ¼ÿv’   ¼ÿv’   ¼ÿv’   ¼ÿv’   ¼ÿ	v’   ¼ÿ
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## synergy543 (Jan 3, 2010)

midphase @ Sun Jan 03 said:


> Actually I have criticized some of the trends in more and more realistic samples, but ultimately, since I don't make a living as a performer, I feel less passionate about the sample libraries issue than I do about the systematic destruction of the role of composers in films (of all budgets).


What about composers working on music libraries? They are getting small compensation now, but putting an end to a great deal of future scoring work - particularly on smaller projects. I've met many successful documentary and ad directors who cut their teeth on music libraries and now wouldn't consider anything else. The $50 music library is like cocaine. And while some composers many think Sonicfire stinks, there are many more directors who are in love with it.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 3, 2010)

midphase @ Sun Jan 03 said:


> Actually I have criticized some of the trends in more and more realistic samples, but ultimately, since I don't make a living as a performer, I feel less passionate about the sample libraries issue than I do about the systematic destruction of the role of composers in films (of all budgets).




It's not because I don't live in Somalia I feel indifferent to their poverty level....




midphase @ Sun Jan 03 said:


> "Second of all, this idea could never in a million years replace a taylor made score, the same way samples will never replace a real orchestra. It was meant for minor projects, like home movies, students short films, as I had explained in my opening."
> 
> I remember that's what they said about drum machines in the 80's. When was the last time you hired a drummer? I think for me it was...hmmmm....yeah. Any new technology will be unrefined at first but will eventually get better and better. Maybe we're talking apples and oranges here, and maybe you're really targeting the home-video/vacation video iMovie crowd, but in that case that software already exists...it's called Garage Band and it's free! As someone suggested, those people usually just grab music from their CD collection. However, you seemed to indirectly imply that you were talking about low budget projects with definitive commercial release ambitions, and in that case it could and does impact working composers. Also...anyone who says "never in a million years" is a bit naive and really needs to take a look at history.




Samples can come close to replacing orchestras but their will always be something missing. You have 100 hundred musicians, each with at least 20 years experience + talent and ability, that can't be replaced with machines. So that's not a fear I have for orchestras.




midphase @ Sun Jan 03 said:


> Sorry, I realize it's coming across that way, but I assure you it's nothing personal. If you're in L.A. I'd love to grab a beer with you and chat, you seem like an intelligent and articulate person who might simply be ignoring the cold hard facts that our industry is in serious jeopardy (and most of the working composers who are not living under a rock know it).



Hm, I don't exactly work at Sears in the sales department, I happen to be part of the industry.

I drink Bud.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 3, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Sun Jan 03 said:


> Second of all, this idea could never in a million years replace a taylor made score, the same way samples will never replace a real orchestra.



It is funny that you say this because I know from a high grade record industry insider that VSL was originally founded/funded with the dedicated aim of _replacing _real orchestras in order to save royalties spent for musicians. That was (and is, as I can see it) the motivation, not only for VSL but for the whole sample technology. It worked out partly, and partly not, and as I see it you are a very active part in the process of driving it forward.

I mean, a product is a product, and everybody can offer what he wants, but let us be clinically analytical about the situation.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 3, 2010)

Some of the best demos around will sound at the most 90% like a real orchestra. But if I reach that 90% I'm very happy and I'm sure the developers are as well. It's that 10% left that makes the difference, this gap may diminish in time with better samples, softwares and programmers but I doubt will ever equal a real orchestra. I don't think developers such as VSL claim to be able to replace a real orchestra, however the challenge is fascinating. What do you think?


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## videohlper (Jan 3, 2010)

Don't knock working at Sears. Dammit, I'm sick of you guys constantly making fun of Sears.

Their employee profit sharing is excellent, they offer a competitive health care plan and have completely excellent nationwide referral/transfer programs. Plus, the employee break room is amazing ever since they ratified Sears employee benefit plan 14a in 2005.

Seriously. They really have been good to me and all my fellow workers in the pet lingere department and I'd appreciate a little respect here.

VH


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 3, 2010)

I had no idea people made fun of Sears, I randomly picked the first store that came to my mind. But honestly, Sears is one of my favorite stores, glad they've been good to you.


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## mf (Jan 3, 2010)

videohlper @ Sun Jan 03 said:


> Seriously. They really have been good to me and all my fellow workers in the pet lingere department and I'd appreciate a little respect here.


:D :D :D


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 3, 2010)

I missed that last line. Ok it's a joke, ha-ha-ha.


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## midphase (Jan 3, 2010)

"Samples can come close to replacing orchestras but their will always be something missing. You have 100 hundred musicians, each with at least 20 years experience + talent and ability, that can't be replaced with machines. So that's not a fear I have for orchestras. "


But how can you say that? Go back about 15-20 years and pretty much all made for TV films used real orchestras and musicians...nowadaòvå   ½ávå   ½âvå   ½ãvå   ½ävå   ½åvå   ½ævå   ½çvå   ½èvå   ½évå   ½êvå   ½ëvå   ½ìvå   ½ívå   ½îvå   ½ïvå   ½ðvå   ½ñvå   ½òvå   ½óvå   ½ôvå   ½õvå   ½övå   ½÷vå   ½øvå   ½ùvæ   ½þvæ   ½ÿvæ   ½ væ   ½væ   ½væ   ½væ   ½væ   ½væ   ½væ   ½væ   ½væ   ½	væ   ½
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## Guy Bacos (Jan 3, 2010)

midphase @ Mon Jan 04 said:


> If they have a Yard House in your neck of the woods, I would recommend you check out some of their micro brews...you'll never want to go back to Bud afterwards. And Alembics and Trappist Ales can be more expensive and tasty than champagne. There's a world of delicious taste to be had.



My style is more:


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## germancomponist (Jan 3, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Mon Jan 04 said:


> I worked as a session musician, arranger, composer and producer of music for commercials ( no, not just jingles, a jingle is a sung piece of music, I did underscoring as well) for over 25 years. I made a pretty good living.
> 
> At first, I was privileged to be able to hire 20-30 musicians at a time. It was a burgeoning business back then. Then computers, synths and samplers came in.
> Thankfully, I was fairly tech-savvy. The music budgets shrunk and shrunk. Ultimately, I ended up doing everything myself.
> ...



+1

Same here, but only over 20 years. 

The best thing is that real musicians know their instruments best. A composer who works only with samples may be only average when it comes to arrange 100 different instruments.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 3, 2010)

midphase @ Mon Jan 04 said:


> The basic point that I'm trying to make is if you build good software that can create good scores, people will use it regardless of their budgets, your intentions might be all well and good, but the end result might have fatal repercussions for an industry already in serious trouble.



Yes. The truth is, people will not only use it regardlesss of their budgets ... the budgets will immediately adjust to the minimum that is needed for these new solutions.

Look, when hiring a group of live players was the only option to get music into a TV show the money was there for it - and it would still be 100 % there today if that were the only option. It is there for other items that are without alternative.

Now if composers were smart they would have kept the prices high and sacked in the difference ... less production costs due to technology -> more profit for the composer. Did that (really) happen? A rhetorical question, the companies are much smarter in terms of business.

This is why I am totally not buying the pretended budget constraints. If something is without alternative then suddenly the budget is there in most cases.

Something to keep in mind is percenteage of total turnover. If an orchestra costs say 100k, how does 50k sound for the _maestro wonderman _that exclusively can wrangle that beast by writing lotsa notes in cryptic clefs and possibly be the only one that can really conduct the masterwork? But if an all-in-one software is 5k or 10k (bought) how much are they willing to pay the _operator _that they see sitting in front of a computer and pressing a key for a complete string riser?

Sample developers love to state they don't want to replace musicians but the fact is they do, no matter what they say. And if you don't watch it then auto-score software will make many media composers poor people, no matter what their makers say.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 4, 2010)

BTW Guy I don't agree that samples can do 90 % of what real orchestras can. I would say 30 % at most.

I just bought what is said to be the best sold CD of 2009 and the strings that I heard there ... well they could probably be replaced by 70 % or so with samples. That is because they are edited into industry standard and mixed to a homogenuous wallpaper. But listen to this

http://www.acquariorecording.it/Downloads/Samples/Sample1.wav (http://www.acquariorecording.it/Downloa ... ample1.wav)

It is more that 30 - 70 % seem to be "good enough" in many cases and I see composers advocating that. I think this is a double sided sword since one day something else will be "good enough" but not them.

Note that I am totally not against technology, all I am saying is ... use it to your sustainable benefit.


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## re-peat (Jan 4, 2010)

Hannes_F @ Mon Jan 04 said:


> I would say 30 % at most.


Depends a bit on the repertoire, doesn't it? The percentage might get quite high for your typical hollywood fireworks, but ask a virtual orchestra to tackle, say, a Beethoven symphony and we're barely at 2% today, I think. Orchestral extravaganza - lots of colour, bells and whistles - is actually much easier to emulate acceptably than orchestral restraint.


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## theheresy (Jan 4, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Sun Jan 03 said:


> They could just hire TheHeresy, he'd do it for free and it'd be even cheaper than buying this software.



hahahahaha :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Where do I sign up?? I need that credit!!


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 4, 2010)

re-peat @ Mon Jan 04 said:


> Hannes_F @ Mon Jan 04 said:
> 
> 
> > I would say 30 % at most.
> ...



I agree with that. In some cases, it's very high the similarity, like in certain styles of film music, and depending what the strings are doing, in other cases, especially for classical music it's much lower. You cannot generalize this. When I write virtual music I always try to favor samples which gives it more credibility.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 4, 2010)

I took a look at cinescore, the music there is highly crappy, I just can't see this competing with what an average to good musician would do. It seems to serve a specific purpose and I have nothing against that. I don't think people need to panic. And that's also part of the composer's job, to prove he can do better than these machines. Come on, you can't expect society to serve the composer's needs to make his world perfect.


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## germancomponist (Jan 4, 2010)

Maybe Casio will built a hardware tool for armateurs. Lets see at NAMM.


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## midphase (Jan 4, 2010)

"Say you've just had a child. We all want our children to be happy in their career choices, and also monetarily secure. Do you see yourself 15 years from now encouraging him/her to go into the music composition/recording industry?"

I've been very vocal about this and my answer to that question is still a resounding "no" At least not until things stabilize back and the market starts resembling a sustainable system...which I don't know if it will ever happen.

Also, I fully agree with Hannes on everything he said. But the bottom line is 30% or 90%, producers and directors generally don't care. I did a mock up for a director using Garritan Cello and he was sold, to the point that I had to fight him to stick to our original plan of bringing in an actual cello player (which we had budgeted for). I also insisted that he be present at the recording session so that he could hear first hand the difference that a real player would make. I managed to make that happen because I had a strong relationship to the director and could dig my heels in a bit and steer him back towards the plan...but had I been working for another director or producer over which I had less influence, I'd be willing to bet that they would have insisted we don't use the real player.

Repeat to yourself over and over: We (composers, musicians, music fans) are not the audience!


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## midphase (Jan 4, 2010)

"And that's also part of the composer's job, to prove he can do better than these machines. Come on, you can't expect society to serve the composer's needs to make his world perfect."


Guy, read my above post. Your comment presumes that the producer and director will be able to tell that you are better than the machines, or that he'll care enough to want to spend the extra money. In the case of films thank god, that is still possible. In the case of industrials and corporate videos for example, that is not possible at all. Commercials are getting there too. Reality TV is pretty much 90% library, and regular TV...well...even that is in jeopardy. This has nothing to do with the skill of the composers and everything to do with the bottom line. I'm dying to talk to you and learn more about the marketplace you operate in because you apparently don't seem to be affected by recent (and not so recent) industry trends.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 4, 2010)

You did what you had to do to convince your producer, that is part of your job. I'm sure if we go back in history we would find that Bach or Beethoven had constant challenges, dealing with problems of their time.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 4, 2010)

Don't worry I hear you loud and clear, and I know many producers can't tell the difference between a tuba and a harpsichord, but you just gave me an example where you challenged a producer and won. So don't always underestimate your audience.


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## midphase (Jan 4, 2010)

You know when someone says "no"? And you say "trust me, it'll be worth it" and they still say "no" and you play them a cue they did for another project and the guys responds "yes, you're right...it's great, but the answer is still no"

Well...that happens a lot around here. Maybe in Canada people are more persuadable?


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## midphase (Jan 4, 2010)

That one example I cited is the exception, and that's because I'm best friends with the director and I can throw a tantrum with him every once in a while and he'll tolerate it.

The current film I'm working on...no way. I tried really hard and the director simply won't have it.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 4, 2010)

All I'm saying is, while producers are morons we have figure out ways to persuade them, it's unfair, but what other choice do we have?

EDIT: while producers can be morons in the area of music.....

(In case anyone thought I was putting producers down)


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 4, 2010)

I don't have an answer, I understand composers are swimming against the current when comes to this and lived it myself. I have been doing demos for quite a while now, so ironically I'm not helping your cause. :(


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## mf (Jan 4, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Mon Jan 04 said:


> All I'm saying is, while producers are morons we have figure out ways to persuade them, it's unfair, but what other choice do we have?


The producers that I know are not morons. They go for what makes financial sense to them, and that is their call to decide. As a composer, I am a producer too, in the sense that I balance benefits with expenses. And I am not talking only money here but also time, and anything that I believe _might_ improve my future. An important part of it is: making the client happy. Is there anything worth sacrifice that for?
Never look down on producers. Or on anyone for that matter.


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## Brian Ralston (Jan 4, 2010)

mf @ Mon Jan 04 said:


> Never look down on producers. Or on anyone for that matter.



A MAJOR +1

Don't be myopic to music issues only guys. There are an awful lot of issues to consider, problems to solve and tackle within multi-million dollar budgets...much less small indie budgets which have the same production requirements. Producers know what they are doing. They just have different people and different financial issues to deal with than composers do with only creating a score. They see the whole picture. They have the pressure of making someone else's investment have less financial risk and hopefully a profit someday. 

It would be extremely wrong and short sighted for anyone to write off producers as not knowing what they are doing just because they might make a decision impacting music in a negative way. It is all a give or take. And most of these people don't get to be a successful producer by not knowing anything. They know more than you do I guarantee that. And they will certainly know what is in the best interests of the film they are producing. 

I also have produced. Did it not because I wanted to be a producer but because I believed it would make me a better and more well "informed" composer throughout the filmmaking process. I was right. I learned a lot from the experience and as such, many of my directors now like using me because they say I am "post production friendly." Meaning that I am not myopic to music only issues. But I get the whole picture and where I fit in a LOT better. I get it when budget problems get in the way of music issues. I also understand that is causes sacrifices to be made in other areas too. 

I urge and caution this discussion to not go down the road of getting "down" on producers as a whole. They are ultimately the ones hiring you and if one's attitude is that the composer knows better than they do...guess what? Your reputation will precede you, and you will not get hired on future projects.


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## midphase (Jan 4, 2010)

"PLEASE READ EVERYTHING CAREFULLY BEFORE TAKING THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT AND DISTORTING THEM."

Ha...I think it wouldn't be VI Control if that didn't happen!


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 4, 2010)

midphase @ Mon Jan 04 said:


> "PLEASE READ EVERYTHING CAREFULLY BEFORE TAKING THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT AND DISTORTING THEM."
> 
> Ha...I think it wouldn't be VI Control if that didn't happen!



Yeah, some days it could be RAW V.I. CONTROL


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## Hannes_F (Jan 4, 2010)

mf and Brian, this thread as I understood it is not about producers as such. It is about the question whether it would be wise for composers to participate in the development of automatic scoring software or rather not. I think it is a valid question because everybody, be it musician, composer (or producer) has a little amount of choice any time.


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## Brian Ralston (Jan 4, 2010)

Hannes,

Like any conversation that strays on and off topic...I was not going to hold my response to the comments made about producers simply because the thread title is about something else. Guy chose to make a statement that I felt needed to be addressed. mf felt it needed to be addressed as well. 

Producers are not morons, not even when it comes to music. They may not be experts in music...but composers are not experts in producing either. 

Would you be a moron if you failed to understand why a DP would argue to use Kodak 35mm Vision film stock over Fuji 35mm film stock...(and the use of Kodak film over Fuji later caused a budgetary change which affected the amount of money available for the score?) Film stock is film stock right? Who can tell the difference between Kodak and Fuiji? A DP can. Is the producer a moron if he can't and causes the DP to use Fuji instead because it is cheaper?

Also Guy, I did not distort the "moron" comment at all. If my response was a distortion of the comment made, then there was no need for you to go back and clarify and edit your post, (now stating separately "while producers can be morons in the area of music...")...which is still unnecessarily derogatory in my opinion.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 4, 2010)

Brian,

I see what you mean ... and must google the word "moron" at some point 

Of course producers are not morons, whatever that is. What I realize though is something else:

For hundreds of years there has been a pact between performing musicians and composers. They often were the same persons to begin with, and it was evident that one group was always working in consideration of the other. 

Then came the era of avantgarde music that weakened the bond ... many modern pieces were unpleasant and even unhealthy to perform, and in reverse it became more and more difficult for the bulk of composers to get their music performed live.

In our days this pact is about to break up entirely, at least for media music. Live musicians are less and less considered indispenseable partners and and friends but as an expense that is to be avoided on the long term. For quite some composers the world would be perfect if samples and technology could masterfully play their compositions, they would really like to emancipate from the need for performers.

I personally think this will not do music itself very good, but this is more a feeling than anything else.

Now what is interesting is that media composers themselves have to face the other side of this medal in their relation to producers. They have been invited to the film producing business for nearly hundred years but find now that there is no rule set in stone saying that composers are always needed for the film making business. So it could happen that they will find themselves to be uninvited soon.

Perhaps TV and maybe even film composing will be a historical episode at some point, an excursion or loop way for music makers. There have been other examples of professions that worked for a certain time and ran dry then.

However I believe music and composing itself will survive ... on stage, in concert, for songs, pop, rock, everywhere where music itself is of intrinsic value. Nobody is waving with budgets there but I think in these fields professional music writing and playing will survive forever. I think even orchestra music will evolve, actually I hope it because it would be about time.


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## mf (Jan 4, 2010)

Well put.

BUT

*You* only live once. You adapt to whatever your zeitgeist has to offer and try to make it work for you the best you can. Then *you* die. Sorry. Just seen the thread about Lhasa de Sela. Very very sad news and story.

That's all.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 4, 2010)

Well, if I offended producers, I apologize. If I offended Sears and the department of pets lingerie, I apologize. If I offended any minority groups I apologize. If I offended Jesus or any religions, I apologize.


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## mf (Jan 5, 2010)

And now you have just offended the very idea of apologizing.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 5, 2010)

mf @ Tue Jan 05 said:


> And now you have just offended the very idea of apologizing.



Then I apologize for having offended the very idea of apologizing.


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