# Depression and various mental illnesses and composing music



## EgM (Jul 11, 2018)

How do you guys deal with it? I suffer from a burnout at the moment because of other work not related to music. (IT/Security installations)

In this state, I have no mental power to compose any music whatsoever. Firing Cubase feels nice for the first 2 minutes but then, everything feels like lifting 150lbs of blocks over and over.

I used to be able to compose 5 songs a night and get really into music which I don't anymore... I wish I was able to do so again and I'm sure more people feel like I do.

Ever felt like this, what did you do to get out of it?


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## pmcrockett (Jul 11, 2018)

Yep. Doing fifty to ninety hours a week at the ol' day job for the past few years has killed music productivity dead. I'm in the process of handing most of my major job responsibilities off to someone else so I can cut way back on the hours and put the time into music instead.

I wish I could say I learned how to deal with it and be productive in spite of it, but I haven't. Physical exhaustion and mental fog make even very simple creative tasks difficult. Most of the time, I can still see the very big picture aspects of projects that I'm working on or want to work on, but actually engaging with the details of the process ranges from difficult to impossible. Beyond a certain point, I find it best for my mental health to give up altogether until I have more free time, because finding a couple hours for music only to spend them staring at the computer unable to actually do anything feels even worse than not trying to do it at all.


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## EgM (Jul 11, 2018)

I don't do as many hours as you do, far less, but I'm self employed and spend most of my unpaid hours doing estimates, bookkeeping, taxes and all that nonsense.

What I have issues with is being on-call for tech support and always having people depending on me all the time... Phone ringing to me == Stress!

I feel for you @pmcrockett I wouldn't want to do 50-90 hours a week :/


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## CoffeeLover (Jul 11, 2018)

go fitness training
bootcamp or crossfit
give it two months
i aint joking around with this
also check netflix for "functional fitness" normal nobodies being and becoming awesome!

this helped me with everything
physical-mental health and intelectual levels 
and razor sharp focus during the day
and best of all Clarity
that piece of pie youre complaining about will become a no brainer
plus you aint getting younger.

if you tell me no that isnt you 
then youre referring to everybody who trains cos thats how they think too
now go and find a box near you and kick some ass and quit being old. 

piece!


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## Daniel James (Jul 11, 2018)

Hey Eric (sorry for the story time here)

I unfortunately have a genetic predisposition to anxiety and depression. I have friends and family that love me, I have a wife whom I love very much, I have a great job that I love to do and yet I am still susceptible to depression. The reason I bring that up is to try to show you that its ok to accept this about yourself. You have already made a significant step by voicing it here and requesting help. That is actually one of the biggest hurdles on this clusterfuck of a journey!

Like any medical condition there is NO shame in seeking professional help. You wouldn't be embarrassed to seek help if you had diabetes, you wouldn't be reluctant to see someone if you had a sore throat. Some people unfortunately are going to experience it in their life. But its ok, help is out there for you. No doctor will ever turn you away and no therapist will think you are being silly. Creatives in general tend to experience anxiety and depression sooner than some other professions as the work we create is an expression of our inner self, so putting that out there into the world can make you feel very vulnerable and stressed. So I say again there is no shame in seeking help. I personally went to my doctor and explained how I was struggling to feel positive emotion anymore, I started not wanting to go out, I started feeling helpless and that I would never amount to anything....all while being told this daily by people who hate me (one of the risks of putting yourself out there). My doctor listened to everyword and I explained there is no real reason I should be feeling this way, my life is good, he explained that it was just a chemical imbalance. Its something I really didn't have control over, but it was something I can treat.

I am now on medication and focusing on getting back on track. The first thing I noticed however is that once I decided to accept something about myself that I had no control over, the world started to help me in return. I started receiving support from others who understood how it feels to feel hopeless for no reason. I started connecting with people in my life who actually matter and have done everything they can to support me. Help is there all you have to do is ask. After realising there are somethings in life I have no control over, I decided to let those go and focus on the things in life I CAN control, like bringing happiness and joy to others through the means I was born with. We are entertainers, we sacrifice a slice of our own happiness to provide it for others. But just know there are people out there ready and able to support you right back.

You are not alone. There is help, all you have to do is ask. It DOES get better, just focus on those parts of life you can control and get support for those bits you can't. I promise you the darkness doesn't last forever and if you ever need help please don't hesitate to ask, I can point you to the right people to get the help you might need. Because I understand how it feels and I really want you to know that you should never feel shame for needing help.

Much love mate,

-DJ


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## Jeremy Gillam (Jul 11, 2018)

Thanks Daniel for sharing -- posts like that are what make this a great forum to be part of.

I too struggle with balancing my day job with my pursuit of music and can really relate to what Eric is saying. Something that helps me is to try to focus on other aspects of music when I'm too overwhelmed to sit down and actually do some proper writing. This might be spending 10 minutes practicing an instrument after a long day of work, patching up a synth or flipping through sounds in a library, finding a video on YouTube of a great performance of a great piece or a tutorial on an aspect of music or production at which I want to improve, etc. I think of it as taking musical baby steps, and figure that sooner or later I'll learn (or remember) how to walk!


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## Jaap (Jul 12, 2018)

On February 2013 I lost everything in a fire, my beloved one, my pets, my house, all my works and equipment. I only had the clothes left that I was wearing. This caused a big mayhem in my life of course. I was extremely depressed, completely mentally broken etc. Now more then 5 years later I am back on the road again happily and though every story of each and everyone of us is unique and different, I think there are a few common factors where can learn from. 
Talk, and that is great that you are doing that now already Eric! Talking about and acknowledge you need some advice, help etc, is a major first step.
Remove for a while your bigger "goals" and plans. Take things by the moment, if you manage to work or get something done, it feels much more rewarding and that is what can contribute so much. A little feeling of achievement. But even more important, if things don't work out at that moment, there is totally nothing to be ashamed of. Don't think about what you could do in the past or what you hope to do in the future, just see and check with yourself what you can do now or not and confide with that.
And if composing feels like such a heavy burden now, don't force it. The more you force it, the heavier the lift will be and could backfire.
Also what coffeelover said is very valuable. Physical excersize is very important and so is taking good care of your body (with good food, not much toxic substances etc)
And of course Daniel is spot on with what he is saying and advicing.

Take care Eric!


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## Saxer (Jul 12, 2018)

I think it helps a lot to collaborate with others on projects. At least it helps me to have someone to show even small examples and get immediate feedback. It's hard to be your own motivator, technician, composer, arranger, performer and jury. If only one part of your chain is weak it's not possible to generate creative output. When I'm not in the mood (wouldn't call it depression in my case) I can't judge my results. Composing is a kind of simulated communication with an imagined audience using virtual instruments. So some real input is important.


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## Saxer (Jul 12, 2018)

Jaap said:


> On February 2013 I lost everything in a fire, my beloved one, my pets, my house, all my works and equipment. I only had the clothes left that I was wearing.


Wow, this is a real stroke of fate. Great to hear you're up again!


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## Jaap (Jul 12, 2018)

Saxer said:


> Wow, this is a real stroke of fate. Great to hear you're up again!



Thank you Saxer! Actually this great community helped me a lot. After doing the major first steps and being away here for I think half a year/year or something I also talked about it here on how to continue also with working. And got some really good tips, help etc and that was very valuable to hear from a lot of different input and stories. It is great that such a community can contribute beside the help and advice we get from our close ones or professionals.


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## Daniel James (Jul 12, 2018)

Jaap said:


> Remove for a while your bigger "goals" and plans. Take things by the moment, if you manage to work or get something done, it feels much more rewarding and that is what can contribute so much. A little feeling of achievement. But even more important, if things don't work out at that moment, there is totally nothing to be ashamed of. Don't think about what you could do in the past or what you hope to do in the future, just see and check with yourself what you can do now or not and confide with that.



Exactly this. As you proved with your horrific situation. There are things in life that are out of your control, if you don't come to terms with that fact, it can consume your life or tragically even end it. If you come to terms with the fact and focus solely on what you DO have control over your world will slowly be put back into order. Again I can't stress this enough, you are never alone in this and there is always someone there willing to help, all you have to do is ask...and there is ZERO shame in doing so!

-DJ


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## MarcusD (Jul 12, 2018)

Depression is like a black-hole consuming everything. But unlike a black-hole you can escape it's grasp. The hardest part is taking back control, taking those first steps is really damn hard. When you look up, you can't even see where those steps end, its just darkness. The thought of climbing blind is a lonely, daunting and formidable task.

A concoction of health issues, learning difficulties & traumatic childhood experiences really took their toll on my mental health. Leaving me with depression throughout most of my pre-teens and early twenties. I was socially inept, ridiculed, bullied and felt very lonely. It took a very long time to wrap my head around a lot and "re-wire" my brain. The whole reason I'm into playing guitar, is because *that *was my holy grail at the time. It was the friend I needed, It was the language I could use to tell people to get [email protected]#ked. It was a release, but not a cure. It's good to have releases, but most progress comes from changing your routine.

I find depression really sets in when you become stagnant, when you stop doing the things that bring you joy and repeat the same routines. The mind becomes brittle, you misplace all your energy on the illusion of doing "something" but really you're doing nothing that ultimately gives you nothing in return. The only real way out (for me) was by surrounding myself with positive, loving, encouraging people and going out into the world doing something different each day or week.

My closest friend, who's currently recovering from depression and attempted suicide, found a really great way to help get him out and about. He cut-out pictures of different activities from magazines then glued them inside pages of a book. Things like, sky-diving, rowing, climbing, gymnastics, spa-day etc... Once or twice a week he'll open the book to a random page, close his eyes and randomly point to a picture. What ever that picture shows, is the activity he will go and do. These new experiences have bought him so much joy, he's discovered new passions and new friends. One step closer to finally waving goodbye to depression.

It's all about making time for yourself, but using that time in a positive way to do things outside your normal habits (which is hard) but creating those new experiences are key to helping you on the journey. Setting yourself targets and goals can be a recipe for failure, especially if you don't meet your own expectations, let alone others. Focus more on living life, focus less on work / goals.


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## Nao Gam (Jul 12, 2018)

Francis Bourre said:


> I record melodies on my phone when I find some: Not sure about this part, I just checked and I got 369 stored on my phone and I didn't use most of them. But all this process make me coming back most of the time with the desire of trying something on the computer, and that's what I'm after.


Came here to post this. I have like 500 melodies in 2 different memory cards as well. I still think our mouth is the best interface our brains have for immediate expression while improvising, capturing even small nuances like vibrato, or multiple instruments at the same time (well not exactly my mouth's not a polysynth). At least if you can decode your own drivel.

Point is, creativity strikes at random times, take advantage of it. Then when you're smashed you can just orchestrate/implement.


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## Tice (Jul 12, 2018)

To me it's very important to make a distinction between stress and depression. While they often come in pairs, they aren't the same thing and require different solutions. The stress part, being over-worked, burned-out, etc. is about how much you're being asked to process on a daily basis. Have too much to process and you become over-stimulated. This is what causes you to want to put your foot on the breaks and slow down, or even stand still and do nothing for a while. The depression part comes in next, when what we feel we should be able to do doesn't correspond to what we are able to do, and we feel inadequate for it. Not only does this lead to depression, it also compells us to add stuff to our to-do list despite the fact that we can't handle any more stimuli to begin with. So we end up creating a vicious cycle: The more over-stimulated you are, the less productive you are, the more pressure we put on ourselves to do more, the more we add to our over-stimulation and the less we are able to actually do.
That's why the general advice for people with a burn-out is to rest and do nothing. This includes not demanding of yourself to meet a certain standard of productivity. Working on something you usually love because somebody is whipping you to do so is no fun. The love for what you do will disappear. If you become depressed, that's what you're doing: whipping yourself to do more. No wonder you lose the love for your craft after loading up Cubase for 2 minutes. It stopped being about love and started being about measuring up to the expectations you think you need to live up to.
That's not to say that it's easy to stop expecting things of yourself. Especially when society and people around you only add to the pressure of expectations. There are a lot of people you'd need to stand up to in order to claim the acceptance you need. But you have every right to do so. You're not a worthy person because of your work. You're a worthy person period. Anyone who makes you feel otherwise is (either knowingly or unknowingly) harming you. This may include yourself.

In summary, break the cycle of over-stimulation and self-hate by accepting and loving yourself even when you don't work. From that, a desire to create will come back to you. Not because it has to, but because self-expression is something you'll naturally want to do when you're not over-stimulated.


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## Parsifal666 (Jul 12, 2018)

This isn't meant to be disrespectful or callous in the least, but does anybody wonder why so many people are being prescribed all these anti-depressants...and yet overall people don't seem any happier (check the stats on violence in the US alone) than they were in the '70s?

I certainly don't subscribe to Tom Cruise's dunder-dolt blather, however I have a healthy suspicion in regard to these seemingly rampant diagnoses of bipolarity in this century.

Many believe Beethoven was bipolar...just think how much of the greatest music ever written might have been quite different had he been on these suspiciously overprescribed drugs.

Not that I don't want people to be "normally happy", I just have misgivings when it comes to how many people are being prescribed these drugs and yet there are people shooting others while on them. Look at the papers, is the US any more happier because of these pills?

Or maybe I need meds for paranoia lol!!!!

Again, no disrespect to anyone, I feel for folks who suffer from such maladies...as opposed to people whom are pretty much just having a bad spell in their lives. There's a very real difference imo.


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## MartinH. (Jul 12, 2018)

This forum really _does _look like a very supportive community (I'm still new here). Thanks for sharing to everyone and a "Get well soon!" to anyone who needs it!



EgM said:


> How do you guys deal with it? I suffer from a burnout at the moment because of other work not related to music. (IT/Security installations)


I've seen a friend burn out, that stuff is no joke! It was literally "crippling" to the point of no longer being able to perform trivial physical tasks at times, like getting up from the couch. And unlike something that slowly creeps up and you see it coming, reports of many people with burnout suggest that it rather hits you like a brickwall from one day to another. 
If you can, cut back a bit on the work hours, take care of yourself! If music isn't your job and you don't feel like it, there's no point in forcing yourself imho. If you can, find a hobby that is more relaxing for you. I've had periods of months where I didn't touch music once because all my creative energy had to go into my job.



Daniel James said:


> I am now on medication and focusing on getting back on track.


Thanks for sharing! Might be interesting for others what _kind _of medication works for you.

To be honest I was starting to get worried about you, when I've seen your posts in one of the recent drama threads, and I'm _really _glad to see you're well on your way to recovery! You've never heard of me before, and I want you to know that the people who have never talked to you, but have known you through youtube for years and do care about your wellbeing, must outweigh the haters that message you by several orders of magnitude!



Tice said:


> To me it's very important to make a distinction between stress and depression. While they often come in pairs, they aren't the same thing and require different solutions. The stress part, being over-worked, burned-out, etc. is about how much your being asked to process on a daily basis. Have too much to process and you become over-stimulated. This is what causes you to want to put your foot on the breaks and slow down, or even stand still and do nothing for a while. The depression part comes in next, when what we feel we should be able to do doesn't correspond to what we are able to do, and we feel inadequate for it. Not only does this leed to depression, it also compells us to add stuff to our to-do list despite the fact that we can't handle any more stimuli to begin with. So we end up creating a vicious cycle: The more over-stimulated you are, the less productive you are, the more pressure we put on ourselves to do more, the more we add to our over-stimulation and the less we are able to actually do.
> That's why the general advice for people with a burn-out is to rest and do nothing. This includes not demanding of yourself to meet a certain standard of productivity. Working on something you usually love because somebody is whipping you to do so is no fun. The love for what you do will disappear. If you become depressed, that's what you're doing: whipping yourself to do more. No wonder you lose the love for your craft after loading up Cubase for 2 minutes. It stopped being about love and started being about measuring up to the expectations you think you need to live up to.
> That's not to say that it's easy to stop expecting things of yourself. Especially when society and people around you only add to the pressure of expectations. There are a lot of people you'd need to stand up to in order to claim the acceptance you need. But you have every right to do so. You're not a worthy person because of your work. You're a worthy person period. Anyone who makes you feel otherwise is (either knowingly or unknowingly) harming you. This may include yourself.
> 
> In summary, break the cycle of over-stimulation and self-hate by accepting and loving yourself even when you don't work. From that, a desire to create will come back to you. Not because it has to, but because self-expression is something you'll naturally want to do when you're not over-stimulated.


Great post! Would you recommend for affected people to also stay away from forums and other online activities? If overstimulation is part of the problem and feelings of overwhelmedness and loneliness are driving people into online communities, this would look like a vicious cycle right there.






Parsifal666 said:


> This isn't meant to be disrespectful or callous in the least, but does anybody wonder why so many people are being prescribed all these anti-depressants...and yet overall people don't seem any happier (check the stats on violence in the US alone) than they were in the '70s?


The environmental factors (smartphones and facebook probably being among the biggest ones) are _vastly_ different today than in the 70's.




Not 100% on topic but I had to think of it for some reason: For anyone dealing with not depression but being targeted by "public outrage" or similar (which likely will lead to depression over time) I'd imagine you can find some useful bits of information in the book "So You've Been Publicly Shamed" by Jon Ronson. I've heard it being recommended on a podcast, but I haven't actually read it. Might be worth a look for anyone with a youtube/twitch channel, or anyone releasing products into the public that receive criticism. Gues we have quite a few members that fit into one of these categories and may sooner or later have to deal with some unpleasant people on the internet.


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## Tice (Jul 12, 2018)

MartinH. said:


> Great post! Would you recommend for affected people to also stay away from forums and other online activities? If overstimulation is part of the problem and feelings of overwhelmedness and loneliness are driving people into online communities, this would look like a vicious cycle right there.



It strongly depends on the forum and what you do internally with the replies you get. Some forums are very constructive and supportive about this. Be weary of elitist behavior, forums where strong egos are trying to prove themselves by acting superior to others. That can be extremely toxic if you believe you should be competing with them. (you don't need to)
I wouldn't recommend isolating yourself. Your inner dialogue will just spiral out of control if it doesn't have other people to verify your thoughts with. But when orienting your inner dialogue by comparing your thoughts to others, make sure those others are constructive and supportive people who aren't seeking to establish themselves by being superior to others. When you do encounter those people, it's important that you develop an inner voice that reminds you that nobody is a truly reliable source of truth with credibility higher than your own voice. We're all stumbling in the dark, even when we don't all act like it. The more sure someone seems of themselves, the less reliable they probably are.
As a general rule of thumb, I say people who think they know the answer won't be looking for it, and thus they cease to listen. That's not where you'll find a way to happiness. Don't take my word for it, distrust my words. Inquisitiveness makes you wiser.


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## Daniel James (Jul 12, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> This isn't meant to be disrespectful or callous in the least, but does anybody wonder why so many people are being prescribed all these anti-depressants...and yet overall people don't seem any happier (check the stats on violence in the US alone) than they were in the '70s?
> 
> I certainly don't subscribe to Tom Cruise's dunder-dolt blather, however I have a healthy suspicion in regard to these seemingly rampant diagnoses of bipolarity in this century.
> 
> ...



Its a common misconception and this stigma is exactly one of the reasons people don't reach out for help.

Antidepressants are not magic happy pills. Anxiety and Depression has a tendency to alter the chemistry of your brain and essentially (hugely oversimplified) dulls positive emotion, which leaves you with only the negative emotion. This explains the 'helpless' feeling many people experience from depression. Antidepressants (or SSRIs) increase the serotonin available for transmitting the information needed to bring back that positive emotion, its essentially balancing out the brain chemistry. This is working for me because I have my life in order. I have a support structure and am suffering with a chemical imbalance.

If however you are depressed and your life is not in order or you do not have a solid support structure in place the medication will only help so much. They will even out the chemistry but if you are in a bad situation you will still feel those negative emotions. Thats why I am so adamant on stressing the fact that there is ZERO SHAME in reaching out for help. When you ask for help people will give you the support you need. The most obvious example of this are mental health hotlines who are available 24/7. Beyond that is where therapy comes in, the chemical imbalance if not treated soon enough can lead to a series of bad behaviours which become habits. Groups and Gatherings exist for this exact reason. You are not alone and nobody will think you are weak or silly for reaching out. Again depression is horrible illness and can get out of your control. If it does, reach out. Again if anyone is really suffering but are reluctant to seek help alone, contact me and I will help you find the support you need to get back on your feet. I know how you feel and I want you to know it doesn't last forever, all you have to do is want it to get better and people can help you get there.

-DJ


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## Nao Gam (Jul 12, 2018)

@Parsifal666 school shooters are a special case if that's what you mean. You need an assortment of personality disorders and chronic social isolation to get one. Depression is not enough.

@Daniel James +1, people need to get their lives in order before jumping on a pill which may even be given on a misdiagnosis. I was given the option to get ADD medication before, tho I possibly don't even have it. I chose not to. These meds have side effects and can only do so much anyway.
I hope the pills have sorted it out for you Daniel


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## SBK (Jul 12, 2018)

I had same problem. The key to me was that I was everyday drinking alcohol. And I stopped cause of some issues. I didn't stop completely but I only had 1 beer everyday, and energy fulfillment sense and clear mind came to me and I could compose easily 1 track a day. Now I started again drinking ... but the pause from it even for 1-2 weeks, was super nice. You have to find what sets your creativity back. And also you need ideas running in your head, I mean practise a bit everyday writing something even for 10 minutes, and also listen to tracks you like most, that will slowly fill you with ideas, but don't quit, if you had a long beak that sets you back and you have to push it a bit. Also a good friend chat-walk-whatever, a good company and girlfriend if you don't have, fill your mind with and towards nice stuff. All the Best


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## Kyle Preston (Jul 12, 2018)

There’s a thread with resources (page 4) here:
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/musicians-mental-health.71598/

Also, Charlie’s advice has been in the back of my mind for the past few weeks - some helpful and constructive ways to think about mental illness and the industry in there


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## Maximvs (Jul 12, 2018)

I am still going through the effects of a severe burnout that happens eleven years ago... life has never been the same again but managed through professional and otherwise help to get back to some kind of a 'normal' life. Forgive me for saying this, this is not the right place to ask for help, even though a community feedback may help to comfort you momentarily.

EgM if you like some advices and recommendations don't hesitate to PM.

Kind regards and blessings to all,

Max T.


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## AllanH (Jul 12, 2018)

Sometimes a shift in perspective can be useful: Einstein played his violin to relax and release his creative mind.

There is, imo, nothing wrong with simply noodling on the keyboard for an hour to relax after a stressful days. The moment you set performance expectations, such as 5 tracks per night, you might be taking the joy out of it.

Many days I put on the headphones and just improvise for long while. Sometimes it turns into a new track but mostly it is just relaxing.


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## CoffeeLover (Jul 12, 2018)

SBK said:


> I had same problem. The key to me was that I was everyday drinking alcohol. And I stopped cause of some issues. I didn't stop completely but I only had 1 beer everyday, and energy fulfillment sense and clear mind came to me and I could compose easily 1 track a day. Now I started again drinking ... but the pause from it even for 1-2 weeks, was super nice. You have to find what sets your creativity back. And also you need ideas running in your head, I mean practise a bit everyday writing something even for 10 minutes, and also listen to tracks you like most, that will slowly fill you with ideas, but don't quit, if you had a long beak that sets you back and you have to push it a bit. Also a good friend chat-walk-whatever, a good company and girlfriend if you don't have, fill your mind with and towards nice stuff. All the Best


have you ever given it any thought to quit completly? 
im a raging alcoholic and drug abuser 
i quit everything 
12 steps of AA and the whole 9 yards 
my life took a drastic turn for the better
id say from the streets and up to the ivory tower 
im not very active in AA today as i was but now im focusing on me and comunication and relationships through codependancy 
and ofcourse i see a phsycologist 
all this self work has given me all the mental tools i need in order to go and take what i dream of
went and finished computerscience and also managed to tour completly sane and sober 
discovered crossfit and olympic weighlifting 
mountainclimbing and hiking,lessons in piano and discovering film music and orchestration but i got no desire to make any music for films or games i just love the creative proscess and the ZEN of being creative. 
also got a dayjob.i could quit and still be able to pay bills with music but i dont want to get bored,yeah i get bored so i dont want music to be a normal working routine like a dayjob
i managed to own my own home in a fucked up housing market. 
but what gets me stressed and depressed ar these long tours in autumn and winter and festival seasons during the summer. not that i dislike playing but the traveling and the environment is difficult. 
as i write this i look back on who i was and where i was and jesus fucking christ i would never had guessed or even dreamt that id reached that level of personality comparing what sort of crumbled soul i was. 
id say i put alot of work in getting here but i never felt the change nor did i focus on how dificult it was. all i felt is that i did not want to be in that pit of despair ever again and i have not felt a slight longing for beer or little line if coke cos i cant forget the misery of my past. the weigh of it just dominates my thought when i think of glamour.

i sincerly wish that everybody who are suffering could find their true beat and rythm and overcome their fears and shadows. 

sorry i wasnt gonna write all this but for those if you are here and are battling addiction along with all the mental illness that comes with it i hope you may find some sort of stimulation cos you can do it too.


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## SBK (Jul 12, 2018)

CoffeeLover said:


> have you ever given it any thought to quit completly?
> i quit everything
> 
> i sincerly wish that everybody who are suffering could find their true beat and rythm and overcome their fears and shadows.
> ...




Hope so man! Your message is inspiring . I want to do many stuff but alcohol makes you stand still! Hope I completely quit it


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## Nao Gam (Jul 12, 2018)

CoffeeLover said:


> have you ever given it any thought to quit completly?
> im a raging alcoholic and drug abuser
> i quit everything
> 12 steps of AA and the whole 9 yards
> ...


Internet addict here. At least I cut down on porn.
I've never been addicted to the hardcore stuff like you, congrats on the improvement btw, but holy hell I've had full blown addictions to softer stuff like the internet and it really is a black hole. Takes a lot of momentum to get out. Anyway I feel confident I'll beat this now tho I'm still struggling a bit.


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## Tice (Jul 12, 2018)

SBK said:


> Hope so man! Your message is inspiring . I want to do many stuff but alcohol makes you stand still! Hope I completely quit it


You can do it! But you have to know what your drinking habbit is intended to do, and replace that method with another. Drinking is never without function. It can be the ability to relax, or to stop thinking about something, or a plethora of other things. Once you know what you're drinking for, you can replace it with something else that does the same thing but without any of the unwanted side-effects.


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## JohnG (Jul 12, 2018)

Sorry for those having a hard time. Life can be very difficult, and some have better luck than others. Quoting @charlieclouser below:



charlieclouser said:


> Yeah, when I first saw that post from RK I had to restrain myself from dropping bombs directly into that FB group - that would have been a little too much of a direct attack, and I don't actually participate in that FB group so it didn't feel appropriate. Plus, he's sort of preaching to the choir over there - they seem to lap that stuff up - but to someone who wasn't raised in the culture of Hollywood aspiration it all feels a bit.... icky. My point was more about how the online echo chamber of "#ComposerLife #TheHustleIsReal #LivingTheDream", like any echo chamber, unwittingly creates a self-reinforcing feedback loop in which the participants try to one-up each other. Like,
> 
> "Oh, you think your last gig was hard? Rookie. On my last gig I had to compose a love theme on clarinet while playing the drums while mastering an album, all in ten minutes. I work 28 hours a day, nine days a week. You don't know *real* struggle, kid! Get on my level! #Hustle #ComposerLife #IwelcomeTheAbuse"
> 
> ...


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## JohnG (Jul 12, 2018)

well that didn't really work. Here's Charlie's post:

Yeah, when I first saw that post from RK I had to restrain myself from dropping bombs directly into that FB group - that would have been a little too much of a direct attack, and I don't actually participate in that FB group so it didn't feel appropriate. Plus, he's sort of preaching to the choir over there - they seem to lap that stuff up - but to someone who wasn't raised in the culture of Hollywood aspiration it all feels a bit.... icky. My point was more about how the online echo chamber of "#ComposerLife #TheHustleIsReal #LivingTheDream", like any echo chamber, unwittingly creates a self-reinforcing feedback loop in which the participants try to one-up each other. Like,

"Oh, you think your last gig was hard? Rookie. On my last gig I had to compose a love theme on clarinet while playing the drums while mastering an album, all in ten minutes. I work 28 hours a day, nine days a week. You don't know *real* struggle, kid! Get on my level! #Hustle #ComposerLife #IwelcomeTheAbuse"

All I want to point out is that it's not the only way.

Most of my favorite artists / composers / writers / filmmakers / musicians are not really all that prolific - they're not "on that grind, son". Kubrick, Eno, Gilliam - they don't crank out product while working on four things at once.

Their work feels as if it's been fertilized in the rich soil of the human experience, of a life well-lived. 

But how does any of this apply to someone trying to gain a foothold in "the industry"? Not sure. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe I'm guilty of speaking from a position of unreasonable and unrealistic success, where my unusual position makes me think it's reasonable for me to tell people that they don't need to work 28-hour days because now that I'm old and coasting on past successes I don't need to do that anymore (spoiler alert, I do). I realize that. But I'm trying to speak to the issue of maintaining mental health in the creative fields. To that point, my central argument is this:

If you sacrifice your life / health / sanity to your music (or any) career, then you run the risk of feeling like you need to be repaid, by that career, for your sacrifice. If it doesn't work out, the career can become that thing that's done you wrong - and that's a wrong that can never be righted, a debt that can never be repaid. 

For everyone, there will eventually be that "last gig". The last score you compose, the last record you release, the last house you build, the last ditch you dig. And then it will be over. And you'll think, what shall we use to fill the empty spaces? If the career contains your identity, there might be a big empty space after that last gig. But if your *identity contains your career* then hopefully the loss will feel less total.

Even the true greats have self-doubt and some level of disappointment with their work. HZ once said his favorite piece of his music is the one that hasn't been written yet. JW famously said that Schindler's List deserved a better composer than he (and Spielberg famously replied, "I agree - but they're all dead!"). What I take from that is that satisfaction and success are *always* relative. My mental analogy has always been that even as you climb a ladder, that ladder is constantly sinking into the mud, so you're always standing on the bottom rung and your shoes will always be an inch away from getting muddy. If you're climbing because you want a better view, and don't actually enjoy the act of climbing just for the exercise, then you're gonna have a bad time. (Insert South Park ski instructor meme here). But if you actually, genuinely enjoy the process of moving your arms and legs, and inspecting the interesting wood grain on each new rung you grab, then the simple act of climbing will be satisfying, even if you never get more than a few inches above the mud.

Okay, yeah, I have been known to "go further" (too far?) in many aspects of music or tech, whether it's permanently wiring up 48 guitar pedals to patch bays or spending endless weeks converting stuff from Kontakt to EXS or whatever - but I enjoy that stuff. It's like having a backyard garden or something. I love sitting cross-legged behind the racks with the cable ties and label printer, getting everything nice and tidy while Robot Chicken plays on the tv. It's a break from the "challenges" of creativity - it's exactly like weeding a garden. When my sample folders are in perfect order, with everything correctly named and organized, I feel the same sort of satisfaction that a gardener feels when the weeding is done and all the irrigation is working as it should. Sure, those weeds will grow back (just like the "samples to be edited" folder!), but that's life. So that stuff never really feels like work. If it did, I probably wouldn't bother!

So enjoy work, but enjoy life also. Both *can* be fun. Both *should* be fun. -- Charlie Clouser


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## jhughes (Jul 12, 2018)

EgM said:


> How do you guys deal with it? I suffer from a burnout at the moment because of other work not related to music. (IT/Security installations)
> 
> In this state, I have no mental power to compose any music whatsoever. Firing Cubase feels nice for the first 2 minutes but then, everything feels like lifting 150lbs of blocks over and over.
> 
> ...



I will start by saying, most people go through what you're dealing with at one point or the other.
It sounds job related and I can relate to that. My career before becoming a full-time musician was as a chemist. Without going into details my job drained me of any desire to come home and practice my instrument.
You can only do so much man. Work 8+ hours and then when you come home you want to relax, makes PERFECT sense. I have no idea the details of your job and schedule. Is there a way you can change things there at all? Sometimes I know there is nothing you can do.

Music isn't easy, sometimes it's not fun, sometimes you aren't making progress, sometimes we put super unrealistic expectations on ourselves, we compare/judge, and we work until we are blue in the face...and sometimes we do that all while pretending everything is wonderful.

To share my own story-I felt kind of down about a month or two ago with my music for a week or so. A "funk" if you will. I go through this more than once a year that is for sure! To me-I try to put my mind in a different place. I try to have FUN with music, make it a game, try to remember what drew me to music in the first place....Often I do something I completely suck at just so I can have a laugh and not be so darn serious ...It will be different for everyone, the one thing I always come back to is I focus on the journey, the studying, and less on the result and less on comparing it to what I want it to be until I'm in a better place mentally.
Good luck in getting out of the funk!


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## jcrosby (Jul 13, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Its a common misconception and this stigma is exactly one of the reasons people don't reach out for help.
> 
> Antidepressants are not magic happy pills. Anxiety and Depression has a tendency to alter the chemistry of your brain and essentially (hugely oversimplified) dulls positive emotion, which leaves you with only the negative emotion. This explains the 'helpless' feeling many people experience from depression. Antidepressants (or SSRIs) increase the serotonin available for transmitting the information needed to bring back that positive emotion, its essentially balancing out the brain chemistry. This is working for me because I have my life in order. I have a support structure and am suffering with a chemical imbalance.
> 
> ...



Not to mention poor diagnosis or being prescribed the wrong medication without check-ins from a pharmacologist with a sold background.

Psychoactive drugs of any kind can be dangerous if prescribed incorrectly... If you give someone with legitimate bipolar disorder the wrong antidepressant there's a very real possibility they can become violent, suicidal, panicky, or any combination in between... Same in reverse...You don't prescribe lithium as a casual medication for social anxiety... That said, anyone who's known someone who genuinely benefitted from it knows the scoop... It's no joke, and legitimately bipolar people are capable of some pretty destructive shit without it if it helps... Medication can be a double edged-sword like that, but critical in the 'right' hands.

Just as you wouldn't go to see a psychiatrist for a heart condition, I personally think a big part of the problem is that general physicians, (not all of course), are too casual with prescribing medications they don't necessarily have a proper background to prescribe. IMO psychiatric medications shouldn't be prescribed by anyone unless they have a seriously solid understanding of the negative outcomes if a medication is the wrong fit...

Doctors should also be more aggressive about vetting and sending people to someone who specializes in mental health issues instead of casually filling out scripts for SSRIS, anit-anxiety medication etc... (The same can, and obviously should be said about pain meds and medication in general...) In the right hands with the right guidance they can keep people from making terrible and irreversible decisions. Unfortunately, in the wrong hands, they can wreak havoc... Unnecessary prescribing, overprescribing, or unsupervised prescription of the wrong combination is the flip side of the medication argument that often doesn't get enough consideration...

Considering mental health issues have a higher incidence in creative people it's important this thread is here... No shame, no judgement, and never be afraid or shy to ask for help if you need it. <3


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## fiestared (Jul 13, 2018)

EgM said:


> How do you guys deal with it? I suffer from a burnout at the moment because of other work not related to music. (IT/Security installations)
> 
> In this state, I have no mental power to compose any music whatsoever. Firing Cubase feels nice for the first 2 minutes but then, everything feels like lifting 150lbs of blocks over and over.
> 
> ...



"griffonia" (ask your doctor...)
I've put a link to Amazon, but for some reasons it doesn't appear ? Look for that : 
5-HTP 100 mg | 120 Vegan Capsules | Helps with Mood, Sleep, Relaxation, Calm and Appetite Control | Naturally Sourced Serotonin Booster | Anti Stress & Temporary Anxiety Relief Support Supplement 
Nested Natural


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## SergeD (Jul 13, 2018)

EgM said:


> I don't do as many hours as you do, far less, but I'm self employed and spend most of my unpaid hours doing estimates, bookkeeping, taxes and all that nonsense.



That's a lot of work, don't you think? 

May I suggest you to checklist all your bills and evaluate the necessity of having each of service/device you pay for? Do you really need everything you pay for?

If you can lower the pressure of payments it could help a lot to feel less trapped by the consumer system. “To pay, or not to pay, that is the question”

Well, it's an option to consider, hope that helps


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## AlexRuger (Jul 13, 2018)

I too have gone through the deep dark valley of depression and anxiety; the near-Sisyphean task of climbing out (in my case, with the help of a wonderful therapist who I can't imagine I'll ever stop seeing); the daily work required to stay out (meditation, a fantastic diet, and certain philosophies are key).

But enough great stuff on the subject has been said, so allow me to throw in something extra: You never really know if there's a physical ailment adding to (or even causing! It can certainly be a chicken-egg thing) mental health issues. 

I just discovered that I am both allergic to wheat and have sleep apnea. I suspect that they only _contributed_ to the mental health issues -- the causes for me were numerous, a bit of a perfect storm -- but I'm excited to see the difference treating all this will make, since while I'm certainly out of the worst of my mental health issues, I still have a long way to go. Maybe the years-long terrible sleep (and that's ignoring all the late nights working!) and systemic inflammation (which in the case of food allergies often affects the brain) made a potentially small mental health problem snowball? Time will tell.

At the very least, it explains a lot of _very _weird health issues I've had over the years but could never find the cause of. I was starting to get diagnoses of MS, fibromyalgia, other dubious and catch-all conditions that are often the result of doctors throwing up their hands in frustration (not to discredit these conditions at all -- I'm just saying that it can be hard to know if your diagnosis is the real deal or if your doc is just trying to get you out the door).

What's funny is that I had sort of suspected _both _of these issues for _years, _but didn't have any evidence or really any reason at all...maybe my subconscious was nudging me (if that's even a thing)? I remember scheduling a sleep study in I think 2010, but for some reason I bailed...all these years later, and I was right on both counts. So strange.

My point being: Get checked out and make sure your health is your top priority. If you suspect something, definitely look into it (and don't wait years like me!) Who knows, maybe the root of all this is something as simple as sleep apnea?


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## MartinH. (Jul 14, 2018)

AlexRuger said:


> I was starting to get diagnoses of MS, fibromyalgia, other dubious and catch-all conditions that are often the result of doctors throwing up their hands in frustration (not to discredit these conditions at all -- I'm just saying that it can be hard to know if your diagnosis is the real deal or if your doc is just trying to get you out the door).


I have a few friends working in the medical field and I have a lot of sympathy for doctors, but I had to arrive at the conclusion that the whole system is _flawed as fuck_! I think everyone needs to invest seriously into medical knowledge and needs to be more actively engaged with their treatments. I don't mean internet-self-diagnose instead of seeing a doctor, I mean seeing a doctor and having done enough research to have a meaningful conversation with them, ask the right questions, offer more useful info about your symptoms than they'd ask for on their own, and connect the dots that you get from seeing different doctors accross different specializations that they wouldn't even be able to see, because they don't have that shared info, only you have. Also some doctors are just plain bad, how can you hope to spot one if you don't know anything about medicine yourself? And some make mistakes, like most humans do, if you know a thing or two, you've at least got a chance to intervene. 



AlexRuger said:


> I just discovered that I am both allergic to wheat


Good thing you bring this up, it reminds me of a truely astonishing case of a young woman who had insane health problems that mostly went away on an all-meat diet:
http://mikhailapeterson.com/

Her father - Jordan Peterson - seems to do quite well on a similar diet too, so it seems to be a genetic thing for them.



AlexRuger said:


> I remember scheduling a sleep study in I think 2010, but for some reason I bailed...all these years later, and I was right on both counts. So strange.


My sleep is kinda fucked up for as long as I can think and I always feel terrible in the morning, but I am hesitant to do such a study because I have huge issues falling asleep in anything but my own bed. Like, it's not totally unrealistic that I'd just lie awake the whole night. When I'm in a hotel for a business trip I often sleep less than 3 hours the first night, and that's without cables attached and feeling like I'm being watched. Can't imagine any of that to help my sleep.
My father has some kind of sleep apnea I think, but contrary to me he always slept like a rock, while I wake up easily and often.
What would you do? Try it anyway?


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## fiestared (Jul 14, 2018)

MartinH. said:


> I have a few friends working in the medical field and I have a lot of sympathy for doctors, but I had to arrive at the conclusion that the whole system is _flawed as fuck_! I think everyone needs to invest seriously into medical knowledge and needs to be more actively engaged with their treatments. I don't mean internet-self-diagnose instead of seeing a doctor, I mean seeing a doctor and having done enough research to have a meaningful conversation with them, ask the right questions, offer more useful info about your symptoms than they'd ask for on their own, and connect the dots that you get from seeing different doctors accross different specializations that they wouldn't even be able to see, because they don't have that shared info, only you have. Also some doctors are just plain bad, how can you hope to spot one if you don't know anything about medicine yourself? And some make mistakes, like most humans do, if you know a thing or two, you've at least got a chance to intervene.
> 
> 
> Good thing you bring this up, it reminds me of a truely astonishing case of a young woman who had insane health problems that mostly went away on an all-meat diet:
> ...


As I wrote above "Griffonia" a natural treatment is perfect for that kind of situation...


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## robgb (Jul 14, 2018)

EgM said:


> How do you guys deal with it? I suffer from a burnout at the moment because of other work not related to music. (IT/Security installations)
> 
> In this state, I have no mental power to compose any music whatsoever. Firing Cubase feels nice for the first 2 minutes but then, everything feels like lifting 150lbs of blocks over and over.
> 
> ...


The older I get, the lazier I get. It IS depressing. 

Regarding magic happy pills, I have a story about myself. My father died when he was 61. As I approached that age, I would joke to my family, "Only twenty years to go." "Only ten years to go." "Only five years..." But as I actually did get months away from my 61st birthday, I began to get very concerned about my health, and the joke was far less funny to me than it had been in the past, especially when I started having stomach problems.

Anxiety over my health was becoming an issue, so I went to my general practitioner and asked for something to "take the edge off." She prescribed me an anti-anxiety pill called Lexapro. I hesitated taking it. Did I want to be dependent on a pill every day? But I finally broke down and started taking it.

Within three days I was having SEVERE panic attacks. Jump out of your chair, unable to breathe panic attacks. I called my doctor and she casually said, "Oh, yeah, those pills can have some nasty side effects. You'll just have to ride it out. You'll be better in about six weeks."

SIX WEEKS? I would have been DEAD in six weeks if I had continued to take those pills. My wife told me to stop immediately, and I did, but then I began to have withdrawal symptoms called "brain sparks" that are hard to describe, but nearly impossible to live with. I also started having severe insomnia. So bad that I couldn't get more than an hour or two of sleep a night—and not very good sleep at that. My wife called the doctor (I was unable to in this state), and the doctor said, "Well, if he's still having symptoms, then it must be in his head."

Yeah, fuck you, Doc, I've never felt anything like this before in my life, so why the hell would I be feeling this way now? Oh, I know, because of the fucking magic pill you gave me that fucked up my brain chemistry.

I finally had to go to a new doctor—a psychiatrist—who was able to help me out. Psychiatrists don't psychoanalyze you anymore. That's old school. What they do now is medicate you, and they are experts at it. He gave me a pill to MAKE me sleep, and told me that my doctor's treatment of me was borderline criminal. She had prescribed me exactly the WRONG kind of medication, he said. In his experience, Lexapro is not really suitable for men. Works great for women, and SOME men, but there are other medications that would work much, much better.

I declined, however, to take any more happy pills. I took the sleeping pills, started to get some sleep, and over the course of a year eventually got back to myself again, although I don't think I'll ever be 100%. The only medication I'm on now is for those stomach issues that started it all.

I know other men who take Lexipro and it works fine for them. I know women who take Xanax, and they're happier than ever, calling it a miracle drug. I would never assume that all these drugs are bad. They do help people. But if you choose to take some, make sure you get them from a psychiatrist and not a GP. GP's are simply not trained to understand the intricacies of these medications. Go to a psychiatrist, who can guide you through the process in case things start to go wrong, and can prescribe additional or alternative medications until it's working correctly.

And always be aware that every drug has potential side effects. If you're taking it and you don't feel right, get help. Quickly.


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## AlexRuger (Jul 14, 2018)

MartinH, I did my sleep study at home. As far as I understand, that's the default nowadays since it's so much less expensive.

They gave me the test device, showed me how to use it in the office, then I wore it for two nights and recorded some info the following morning. Totally painless!


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## MartinH. (Jul 14, 2018)

fiestared said:


> As I wrote above "Griffonia" a natural treatment is perfect for that kind of situation...


Thanks for the suggestion, I appreciate it. I briefly looked into it but that seems to mainly contain 5-Hydroxytryptophan - a serotonin precurser. I have no reason to believe that would help me, because I have tried L-Tryptophan in the past (precursor of 5-HTP it seems) and that didn't help at all, only gave me nightmares. Also I know how it feels when I accidentally fuck up my serotonin levels with avoiding daylight for too long, and that goes away rather quickly when I up the light exposure again.



robgb said:


> Within three days I was having SEVERE panic attacks. Jump out of your chair, unable to breathe panic attacks. I called my doctor and she casually said, "Oh, yeah, those pills can have some nasty side effects. You'll just have to ride it out. You'll be better in about six weeks."
> 
> SIX WEEKS? I would have been DEAD in six weeks if I had continued to take those pills. My wife told me to stop immediately, and I did, but then I began to have withdrawal symptoms called "brain sparks" that are hard to describe, but nearly impossible to live with.


Yikes! Sorry you had to go through that!

But that sounds like an excellent example where "do your own research" might have helped you a great deal. You're absolutely not supposed to suddenly stop that kind of medication. You're supposed to slowly reduce the dosage over a longer time to get off of it without having the discontinuation symptoms. It's right there on the wikipedia page: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escitalopram#Discontinuation_symptoms

Also you seem not to have been aware that almost every anti-depressant is supposed to show first positive effects only after _weeks or months_ of taking them. If you're not commited to muscle through the side effects for 2 months, there isn't much point in even starting imho. You'll get side effects much sooner than the proper positive effects. I don't want to downplay what you've gone through because I have no idea how that felt, I'm sure it was a nightmare! But maybe that too could have been much smoother by not starting with the prescribed dosage and instead "easing it in slowly" over the course of some weeks? 



AlexRuger said:


> MartinH, I did my sleep study at home. As far as I understand, that's the default nowadays since it's so much less expensive.
> 
> They gave me the test device, showed me how to use it in the office, then I wore it for two nights and recorded some info the following morning. Totally painless!


Thanks for the info! That's interesting, but I guess for finding out if you stop breathing a portable device is fine. I'd be interested in EEG readings too though, but I doubt that is possible with such a device? Maybe I should call a sleep lab in the area and ask, and see what my insurance covers. 

Though... shouldn't it be fairly easy to find out if I stop breathing at night by running my portable audio recorder a whole night aimed at my head, and parse the intervals between sounds with some audio analysis tool, and if it finds pauses past a threshold, I can listen to the raw audio recording at that timecode and see if it sounds unusual? Might be an interesting experiment. 

The reason I'd be interested in the EEG readings too is that afaik there are some conditions where you don't enter REM sleep the same way normal people would, and that makes your sleep much lower quality than it should be. Not sure that can be measured on metrics like breating rate, movement rate and heartbeat alone. Could be, but I don't know.


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## robgb (Jul 14, 2018)

MartinH. said:


> You're absolutely not supposed to suddenly stop that kind of medication. You're supposed to slowly reduce the dosage over a longer time to get off of it without having the discontinuation symptoms.


I'd only been taking it a few days and there was no way I was going to put that caustic shit in my body again.


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## JohnnyDoe (Jul 14, 2018)

robgb said:


> Regarding magic happy pills, I have a story about myself.


Thanks for sharing your story, some caution with that stuff is in order indeed! But I feel like some nuances are getting lost here, so I'd like to share a few of my experiences as well, hopefully it's helpful for someone who reads it. I'm quoting a bunch from your post but it's not really intended as response to you, more a general rant. 

For you specifically it sounds to me like your issue isn't "general anxiety towards everything", but instead "a very specific anxiety towards one area - with a very understandable source". Imho SSRIs are rather for people who have generalized irrational fears of many unspecific things. From your specific story I'd have suggested seeing a therapist and normal health checkups in reasonable intervals to proof to your mind that you still are healthy and don't need to worry. I hope you'll have many more healthy years in front of you and find a solution for the anxiety and stomach issues! 



Alright, rant time: First of all, anti-depressants are not "happy pills". That's the wrong name in every way! They can NOT make you happy. They can make you "NOT depressed", but only if you have an issue that is fixable with medication and you get the correct medication for your problem.

It is impossible to "get high" from anti-depressants. If it was, people would be doing it all the time and they wouldn't be as easily available as they are.

The stuff you mention is a common SSRI, they are "selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors". They don't generate serotonin, they don't boost it's release, they make it go away less quickly, thus increasing the concentration of it in the brain. And by the way, for many anti-depressants we don't even know for a fact how they work, only that they do. The science and statistics on all of this mental stuff are rather imperfect and new theories come up all the time.



robgb said:


> Within three days I was having SEVERE panic attacks. Jump out of your chair, unable to breathe panic attacks. I called my doctor and she casually said, "Oh, yeah, those pills can have some nasty side effects. You'll just have to ride it out. You'll be better in about six weeks."


I had taken Citalopram for a few months, it's not quite the same, but closely related. I knew someone for whom Escitalopram meant the difference between living a nightmarish life of being afraid of everything and a normal live. I resisted his suggestions to try anti-depressants for years, because much like you I never wanted to "be dependant" on anything.

Today I know, you can't be "addicted" to SSRIs (or most anti-depressants in general). If they work correctly, you think "I'm feeling fine, why do I even take this stuff anymore, I don't need this". And then when you quit it in the slow and recommended way of easing out of your daily dosage you might indeed still be just fine and no longer need it. Or you will get depressed again and think "whelp, guess I wasn't ready yet".

One of the effects that is speculated to make anti-depressants work (among others) is increasing neuroplasticity - the ability of the brain to restructure itself. It is not uncommon for depression patients to be permanently fine after taking SSRIs for 1 or 2 years, combined with some traditional therapy and getting their life in order, and then coming off the meds in a controlled way. In fact, that's the goal with taking anti-depressants. They're never intended as a permanent solution. That's just for the extreme cases. 

Excercise by the way is good for neuroplasticity too, so that's one way that's beneficial against depression too.




robgb said:


> SIX WEEKS? I would have been DEAD in six weeks if I had continued to take those pills.


When I started taking my SSRI I had bad nausea and dizziness, but that was about it. After a while it made me lose my ability to climax during sex and I didn't feel "good" yet, just maybe slightly more "resilient". So I talked to the neurologist who had prescribed it and he gave me a prescription for Bupropione Hydrocloride (sold as Wellbutrin I think - an NDRI). I specifically asked "Can I just stop taking the SSRI and start taking the NDRI? Do I need to keep a space of no meds between the two?" And he said "No, it's fine. Just stop taking the SSRI and start with the NDRI on the day after".

Boy was he wrong!

I was super lucky in the way that I had heard a story of someone who had bad symptoms from stopping to take his SSRIs and he had described it as "thinking he was going insane for three days" and he too did call his doc and got a similar response of "just wait it out, it's going to be fine soon".

Can't remember if it was the day after my last SSRI pill or the day after that (I think the latter), and I had already taken one of the new pills - as the doc said - when I started to literally lose my mind. I went outside on the street, didn't see any people, and I was not sure if I was dreaming or not for a moment. That NEVER had happened to me before. I was super paranoid and scared. Got a concerning email from my girlfriend who had gotten a concussion and went to see the doctor and I thought "fuck, what if she's dead now?" and I couldn't reach her on the phone. For the next hours I would uncontrollably start bursting into tears and sobbing like a baby - for no reason at all, it just happened and went away on its own again. It's an indescribable feeling, you have no control, you feel like you're literally going insane. So I can relate to your experience quite a bit I feel. I didn't call the doc because I remembered this can happen and it will go away after a while. I think I did call my ex-girlfriend to come over and keep an eye on me so that I don't do anything stupid. Later I felt better again, went over to my girlfriends house, brought some cookies and we commiserated our mutually terrible days.


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## JohnnyDoe (Jul 14, 2018)

(had to split the post because it was too long)




MartinH. said:


> You're absolutely not supposed to suddenly stop that kind of medication. You're supposed to slowly reduce the dosage over a longer time to get off of it without having the discontinuation symptoms.


Yup, from what I could find on the internet after looking this up after my poor experience I found many many reports of people saying "You have to dose that down to molecule-size before you quit it, or quit cold turkey and brace yourself for extreme side effects - your choice."

I of course confronted my Neurologist about this on my next visit and he gave me a weird look and said "Never heard of that, I've never have that happen to one of my patients in all those years".


On the plus side, the Bupropione Hydrocloride (NDRI) did work for me. I felt great for a while! Much more energized and creative. Buch of side effects too, but nothing I couldn't live with. For a few months everytime I'd make a sudden movement with my head or hear a loud noise, I would feel a split second of strong dizziness that went away again instantly. That eventually went away completely. It can take a looong time till you adjust fully to such meds.

For a few months I felt good, then it got progressively worse again. I had a different Neurologist by then and we had a talk that went kind of like this:

Me: When I started taking the 150 mg NDRI daily dosage I felt great, after a few months I felt bad again. Then we upped the dosage to 300 mg and I felt good again for a few months, and now I feel really depressed again. What shall we do?

Doc: Well, maybe you need more, I'll write you a prescription for 600 mg daily. Maybe that works.

Me: No thanks, the manufacturer clearly states 300 mg daily is the absolute max - 450 mg only under nonstop supervision in hospitals, and past that point the risk of dying from a seizure gets too big.

Doc: Eh, I'm sure it's fine.

Me: No, I don't wanna take more than 300 mg daily.


Fun fact (from wikipedia iirc): This stuff was taken from the market after it's first release because too many deaths occurred and was then re-introduced with a different composition that releases the active ingredient more slowly. The "manual" that comes with it quite clearly states that you can potentially die if you swallow a single pill that has been damaged because the retardant coating is what makes it safe. This is a pill you absolutely may not break/cut in half to ease out the dosage like you would with an SSRI. This is why it's vital to RTFM and DYOR (do your own research) with this stuff!

And there were some reports from people online who had been prescribed 600 mg by their doctors and it backfired sorely. Like waking up on the floor because they had a seizure or feeling like everything moves in slow motion, combined with paranoia. 




robgb said:


> I began to have withdrawal symptoms called "brain sparks" that are hard to describe, but nearly impossible to live with.



When I later was on a combination of two different meds I had those sometimes when trying to fall asleep. It felt like my face explodes in an electric shock and a loud sound that I knew wasn't actually there, but there was absolutely no pain. "Brain sparks" sounds about right. Didn't know you can get that from quitting SSRIs and didn't happen to me when I did. All these meds are "your mileage may vary" to a considerable extend.




robgb said:


> I finally had to go to a new doctor—a psychiatrist—who was able to help me out. Psychiatrists don't psychoanalyze you anymore. That's old school. What they do now is medicate you, and they are experts at it. He gave me a pill to MAKE me sleep, and told me that my doctor's treatment of me was borderline criminal. She had prescribed me exactly the WRONG kind of medication, he said. In his experience, Lexapro is not really suitable for men. Works great for women, and SOME men, but there are other medications that would work much, much better.



I've highlighted the general red-flag here. In a perfect world it shouldn't even be a question of a doc's "experience" imho. This should be a hard science with proper stats and shit. They all should have the same data pool from which they draw the same conclusions, but sadly that's not how that stuff works.

That second neurologist I had was evidently pretty bad, but I appreciate that he was rather blunt when he told me this:
they can't know what the right meds are for anyone, they always start with an SSRI, because statistically that helps xx% of people. For those that don't respond well, they try the next one which helps a few percent less, and so on. And he freely admitted "In the end there's a percentage left that just isn't responding to any meds at all."...




robgb said:


> I declined, however, to take any more happy pills. I took the sleeping pills, started to get some sleep, and over the course of a year eventually got back to myself again, although I don't think I'll ever be 100%.



Sleeping pills (depending on what kind they are) can be VERY addictive. There's stuff that you shouldn't even take for a couple of weeks because it can get you hooked so quickly. Not sure what exactly those were called (benzodiazepines?), I didn't have much interest.
There are also anti-depressants that have a side-effect of making you sleepy. Those are not addictive. Mirtazapine is one such pill, and it knocked me the fuck out when I took it. Like take one pill, and less than half an hour later I was not able to stay awake and had to go to bed and slept for 12+ hours or so. Great for sleeping, not great for being awake the next day. Also can make you fat quickly. Better for people who struggle with being underweight, worked reasonably well as an AD for someone I know. For me it helped somewhat against being sad over being single and against sleepless nights, but ultimately I felt too tired and lethargic with it.



robgb said:


> But if you choose to take some, make sure you get them from a psychiatrist and not a GP. GP's are simply not trained to understand the intricacies of these medications. Go to a psychiatrist, who can guide you through the process in case things start to go wrong, and can prescribe additional or alternative medications until it's working correctly.


And here's where I have to politely disagree based on my own personal and anecdotal experience, which I'll admit doesn't mean much either. I'll take an interested, motivated and diligent GP over a bad Neurologist/Psychiatrist any day. Hell, I believe just reading a ton of all the available info online will give you better judgement than some docs that don't really care will provide you. Nowadays when I'm seeing a doctor about stuff like that, I tell them what I'd like to try, explain the reasons why, tell them all that I've tried so far and ask them for their opinion and if they agree, then for a prescription. That served me much better than just "trying random pills till maybe one works". I've even had (doc's idea, not mine) Lithium for 2-3 months and that caused me some of the worst nightmares that I ever had. Like waking up screaming every night for a week straight... And yet for some people it allows them to have a much more normal life, just not for me, because I'm not bipolar, and that's what it's intended to treat. 


I'm not actually against medication, quite the contrary. I just feel it's important that people understand that this is kind of like playing the odds in a gamble. Worst case for taking a pill: you die. Worst case for not trying to treat your depression: you kill yourself. I know two people who did the later, and zero who died from pills (I even know one person who tried to overdose on mirtazapine pills but still survived). I'm sure the statistics on those extremes will say taking the pills is MUCH much safer when you have depression, or else I'd imagine they all wouldn't have gotten their FDA cert or whatever it's called.




robgb said:


> I'd only been taking it a few days and there was no way I was going to put that caustic shit in my body again.


I can understand that. Sadly there's no other way to find out if it gets better or worse when you keep taking the pills, than to just try it out.



Hope any of that was helpful for someone!


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## robgb (Jul 14, 2018)

Re: sleeping pills. I took a low dose of temazapam for about nine months. They help me tremendously and I never felt the need to increase the dose. I stopped gradually by taking half doses, then quarter doses, then nothing. I felt some flu like symptoms for a couple days, then felt fine. Been sleeping 7 to 8 hours ever since.


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## cmillar (Jul 15, 2018)

Excellent thread with great thoughts, empathy for others, great advice, food for thought, etc.

Just to add my 'self-help' tip.

If you're physically able, I think the best thing any of us can do is get walking or running. 

As they say, "Just do it". We're homo-sapiens....our body is constructed to move....everything in our body is designed to be on the move by walking or running. The benfefits are numerable. (...along with a healthier life-style) 

I like to run, and am getting back into it after years of "on again, off again".

(...it's like practicing my trombone!....have to ease into it if you've missed practice time!)

Anyways, I find running to be my life-saver. It's like free mental-therapy. I find that I also get some musically inspired thoughts along the way as well, or find myself thinking of solutions to self-imposed musical challenges in my composing or "DAW-ing".

These are challenging times for any musicians and creative people. Many of us have to face mind-numbing day jobs, pressures from corporations to simplify and conform creative standards to the lowest possible standards, more un-educated or under-educated politicians wanting to impose their sub-standard ideas onto what is culture or not, etc. etc. etc.

We face very tough challenges just to stay 'human' and be living, breathing, creative human beings.

Good luck to us all... we are part of the Resistance!


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 15, 2018)

AlexRuger said:


> My point being: Get checked out and make sure your health is your top priority. If you suspect something, definitely look into it (and don't wait years like me!) Who knows, maybe the root of all this is something as simple as sleep apnea?


Sleep apnea, 10 years and counting. DM me if you want to chat about it any time, Alex. 
Inspiring thread guys. Great example of community spirit.


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## Alex Fraser (Jul 15, 2018)

MartinH. said:


> My sleep is kinda fucked up for as long as I can think and I always feel terrible in the morning, but I am hesitant to do such a study because I have huge issues falling asleep in anything but my own bed. Like, it's not totally unrealistic that I'd just lie awake the whole night. When I'm in a hotel for a business trip I often sleep less than 3 hours the first night, and that's without cables attached and feeling like I'm being watched. Can't imagine any of that to help my sleep.
> My father has some kind of sleep apnea I think, but contrary to me he always slept like a rock, while I wake up easily and often.
> What would you do? Try it anyway?


The apnea is about how your airflow is blocked/restricted whilst you're asleep, kinda separate from something like insomnia. FWIW, I have sleep apnea but have absolutely no trouble in getting to sleep.
It was my wife who first suggested I take the tests as she observed me repeatedly gasping for air in my sleep..


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## robgb (Jul 15, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> The apnea is about how your airflow is blocked/restricted whilst you're asleep, kinda separate from something like insomnia. FWIW, I have sleep apnea but have absolutely no trouble in getting to sleep.
> It was my wife who first suggested I take the tests as she observed me repeatedly gasping for air in my sleep..


Long time apnea patient. CPAP saved my life.


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## Aaron Sapp (Jul 16, 2018)

I'm happy with being unhappy and I reckon a lot of composers probably deal with the same default state of mind. It really comes with the territory for a lot of creative folks. 

Take it a day at a time. Find an unrelated hobby. Exercise. Eat better. Spend time with friends.

If you find yourself emotionally burdened, talk to someone -- a composer, perhaps. Chances are they've been there.


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## JohnG (Jul 19, 2018)

Interesting article in The Guardian. A bit anti-medicines, which may be unrealistic; many people are resistant to making meaningful changes (diet, exercise, job, relationships) and medicines may be their best practical option. Not that I have a strong opinion, just a reaction.

Here's the article:

https://www.theguardian.com/society...ugs-alone-wont-fix-our-epidemic-of-depression


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## AlexRuger (Jul 19, 2018)

JohnG said:


> Interesting article in The Guardian. A bit anti-medicines, which may be unrealistic; many people are resistant to making meaningful changes (diet, exercise, job, relationships) and medicines may be their best practical option. Not that I have a strong opinion, just a reaction.
> 
> Here's the article:
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/society...ugs-alone-wont-fix-our-epidemic-of-depression



I can of course only speak for myself here, but personally I was adamantly against the idea of treating my mental health issues with medication because I had a hunch that my case couldn't be described by the oft-repeated "chemical imbalance" (which, as far as I can understand, is absolutely the case for some people, but is also too often a hand-wavey way of describing a much more complex web of issues). Or, to be more specific: yes, my brain chemistry was "out of balance," but that wasn't the final cause. 

I had to go much deeper -- anxiety-ridden neural pathways that were "carved out" deeper than they should be due to years of indulging in anxiety, and the false stories one tells oneself and learned reactions that reinforce them; bad sleep, bad diet, stressful career, etc; some childhood stuff I won't go into detail over. I saw more than enough smoking guns than to allow myself to jump to the conclusion that my brain chemistry was just out of whack for no good reason. 

So, my one-sentence back-seat analysis re that article: the absurd nature of late-stage capitalism and post-post-modernism (sorry) is a difficult thing for non-sociopathic psyches to endure.


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## SergeD (Jul 19, 2018)

JohnG said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/society...ugs-alone-wont-fix-our-epidemic-of-depression



In that article "Depression is characterized by low energy" should be reversed to "Low energy conducts to depression". Old or sick people depress because they lack energy to face exausting events that could occur. They do not lack energy because they are depressed.

The credit card consumes a lot of energy. Slavery has been replaced by the credit card and his chains are very solid.


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