# Need help on fee pricing for sync music



## AKR (Dec 17, 2013)

Ok, so a local indie film producer is interested in using my music. Right now, he's in the early stages of the project (an extreme sports series) and hasn't been picked up by a network yet. He doesn't have much of a budget at this time (but is working on it). He wants to know my rate for online episodes and he's apparently going to be adding it to Xbox (do they have some sort of non-game media streaming service or something now?). 

These are poppish songs that I'm already exploiting in other ways, so I fully expect to keep the rights to my music. Just curious as to how I should proceed with fees. Should I ask for an extra fee if his show gets picked up by a network? At what point in that process (if it's picked up) should he be expected to send me payment? Thanks for any advice. 

Orion


----------



## RiffWraith (Dec 17, 2013)

Four words:

_What is your budget?_

Always ask this, even if you know there isn't much of one. You wont always get an answer, but you should at least try to get them to commit to some sort of $ figure.

It usually works like this:

Composer gets paid $x. Half up front, and the other half upon completion.
The score is a work for hire, meaning it is exclusive to the film, the film retains all rights, and the composer can not do anything else with the score/music.
The film (studio, producer) keeps the 100% of the publishing.
The composer keeps the 100% of the writers, and will collect performance royalties if and when the film airs on a network that has a contract with the composer's PRO.

Now, if the budget is so low, that you are getting paid practically nothing, you can do a few things:

1) Ask to keep 100% of the publishing, with the understanding that you may have to settle on 50%. Also understand, that this does absolutely nothing for you if the film never makes it on the air.

2a) Ask to keep the rights to the music. This way, you can give the music to some music prod. libs, and hopefully make a few bucks off of that music.

2b) If they say no to 2a, then tell them you will grant an exclusive license to them for the music, for a period of two years (or some timeframe you feel comfortable with), after which the rights of all of the music revert back to you. The music still stays with the film of course, but you can do other things with the music.

3) Agree on $x, with the understanding that you will be paid an additional $y, if and when the film gets picked up by a network.

Now, if the producer has half a brain, or hires an attorney with half a brain, #2a and #2b are more than likely not going to happen, because that makes it all the more difficult for the film to get picked up/and or sold. Networks usually do not want to deal with "problems" when it comes to exclusivity of any of the film's content.

Now, if you _are_ getting paid a good amount, you should not be asking for any of the above. That's why you are getting paid a good amount. :!: 

How much? That is difficult. How long is the film? How much music will you be required to submit? How long will it take you? How much is your time worth? For something like this, you can expect to get paid anywhere from a few hundred to several thousand. Ask what the budget is, and try and go from there.

Good luck.


----------



## Greg (Dec 17, 2013)

I personally would ask him for his music budget, then give him an online broadcast license somewhere in the ballpark of that price range.

If the production would be picked up by a distributor, network, or be broadcasted / sold in a medium other than online, mention that he will need to purchase an additional license for the extra terms.


----------



## impressions (Dec 17, 2013)

+1 riffwraith
very good points.


----------



## Martin K (Dec 17, 2013)

Thanks for sharing RiffWraith. Great post!

best,
Martin


----------



## AKR (Dec 18, 2013)

Thanks for the replies so far, but I don't feel like most of it was relevant to my specific situation as explained in the OP, and I still don't have any $$ numbers.


----------



## Conor (Dec 18, 2013)

Hi AKR,

From your original post it sounds like the music is already being used elsewhere, so any kind of buyout or exclusive deal is off the table, and the only question is "what's a reasonable fee for a non-exclusive sync license" -- am I understanding right?

Also...

- "local indie film producer"
- "early stages"
- no financial backing, no network connection
- planning to put the series online

Are we talking about a project that's going places, or is this just some guy with a camera and a YouTube account? 

I'm not remotely qualified to give you advice on the numbers, just hoping to clarify the discussion a little. Cheers!


----------



## Greg (Dec 18, 2013)

AKR @ Wed Dec 18 said:


> Thanks for the replies so far, but I don't feel like most of it was relevant to my specific situation as explained in the OP, and I still don't have any $$ numbers.



Asking us for a price to license your own music is just silly.


----------



## Connor (Dec 18, 2013)

CobraTrumpet speaks truth, realistically it sounds to me like you aren't going to expect much more than a few hundos out of this one, USD.
Also, off topic but CobraTrumpet, what's the scene like out in Austin? I've been contemplating moving there rather than LA like everyone else, but alas I'm into orchestration and there doesn't seem much in that way outside hollywood.


----------



## Conor (Dec 18, 2013)

Hi Connor, I'm Conor.  Sending you a PM.


----------



## RiffWraith (Dec 18, 2013)

AKR @ Wed Dec 18 said:


> Thanks for the replies so far, but I don't feel like most of it was relevant to my specific situation as explained in the OP, and I still don't have any $$ numbers.



Actually, the advice you got was _very_ relevant to your specific situation, and you do in fact have $$ numbers.


----------



## AKR (Dec 18, 2013)

CobraTrumpet @ Wed Dec 18 said:


> Hi AKR,
> 
> From your original post it sounds like the music is already being used elsewhere, so any kind of buyout or exclusive deal is off the table, and the only question is *"what's a reasonable fee for a non-exclusive sync license"* -- am I understanding right?



Well, that's one question, but the others are: 

What should I charge for online episodes? Xbox? 
what should I charge if it's picked up by a network?
When should I expect to be paid if it's picked up by a network? 



> Also...
> 
> - "local indie film producer"
> - "early stages"
> ...



Thanks, Cobra. I think this will go places. I've seen a couple trailers for some of the projects he's working on and they look professional. Very well put together. 



Greg @ Wed Dec 18 said:


> Asking us for a price to license your own music is just silly.



I don't see what's silly about it. People with more experience are going to have a better idea of what's reasonable, given a scenario. 





RiffWraith @ Wed Dec 18 said:


> AKR @ Wed Dec 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the replies so far, but I don't feel like most of it was relevant to my specific situation as explained in the OP, and I still don't have any $$ numbers.
> ...



Sorry, but no. I said I plan on keeping the rights to the music; you said it's a work for hire. And then, you went into some different scenarios, when I already have a specific scenario, which is non-exclusive licensing. Saying "Agree on $x" is not giving me a number. X is not a number. X is the placeholder of the number I'm looking for. I need to have an idea of what X should be. 

You kept on talking about it like it's a film and I'm doing film composing when I said it's a sports series and it's pop songs that are already being exploited. You said "#2a and #2b are more than likely not going to happen, " and yet, it happens all the time with pop songs. In fact, the chances of the rights NOT being retained by the musician (and/or label) are next to none. I mean, really. When's the last time a pop song ended up as exclusive content for a film or tv show? 

I appreciate it when people try to help, but when I feel like people just give an answer that makes it appear as if they only looked at the subject topic and not the actual details of the post, it doesn't really feel like help.


----------



## AKR (Dec 18, 2013)

Greg @ Tue Dec 17 said:


> I personally would ask him for his music budget, then give him an online broadcast license somewhere in the ballpark of that price range.
> 
> If the production would be picked up by a distributor, network, or be broadcasted / sold in a medium other than online, mention that he will need to purchase an additional license for the extra terms.



Well, since I'm not scoring an entire series for him, but just licensing any number of songs to be included with the songs of other artists, I can't just say "I'll take your whole music budget, please."


----------



## Connor (Dec 18, 2013)

If you were doing an original score, 300-500 bucks USD per minute of music is a normal budget. Licensing out a sync fee for a lower budget,, try 250-400 bucks USD per minute of music. That's the best advice I can give, I imagine you can get a higher amount for exclusivity clauses, ie you can't license out these tracks for 12 months, or 18 months etc.


If he says that's way too much then just try to work with him. Audiosparx exclusive buyouts can earn you around 200+ bucks so make him aware of how much it'd cost him for the competition for instance. You may be the one doing this guy a favor, but let him know the 250-400 range is your normal for future reference. If the project 'goes somewhere' ie has decent sales, you'd want to have a negotiating point. Setup your contract to have after X copies sold or whatever terms, that you can renegotiate sync fees from tabula rasa, ie 400 per minute with 24 month exlusivity. Or just a single licensing fee of every X sales garners X dollars, say every 1000 sales garners you half your minute rate, say 125-200.

I'm just thinking on my feet here, not knowing too much of the intricacies of the situation, but at some point you will just have to make your move.


----------



## RiffWraith (Dec 18, 2013)

AKR @ Thu Dec 19 said:


> .I said I plan on keeping the rights to the music; you said it's a work for hire.



Yeah - _plan_ is the key word. What I was trying to tell you, is that you may not be able to, and I was trying to give you some suggestions. I was only trying to help - not trying to provide an answer that was less than suitable. My apologies for wasting your time.


----------



## rgames (Dec 18, 2013)

I think Riff summed it up pretty well with one omission: I've found it extremely difficult to re-use material written specifically for a film, so the value of retaining ownership in the hopes of re-licensing it elsewhere is not likely to be very high. Much better to get paid from the production (up-front or back-end) for the music you provide.

Also, providing dollar values to you is useless. Just like any other business, you determine the appropriate fee given your cost structure. Then you enter it into the market and see how the market responds, then you adapt.

That's just business basics and it as nothing to do with the fact that your product/service is music. It's the way any type of business works in a free market.

So don't worry about the music piece just yet - think about the business end first and figure out what you rate *must* be, then try to get more. If you get offered less, don't take the gig.

It's really very simple!

Cheers,

rgames


----------



## Jdiggity1 (Dec 18, 2013)

So.. you haven't written anything specifically for this project correct? The producer wants to use already existing tracks?
If that is the case, and you are making money from them elsewhere (or plan to), then don't feel like you have to charge as much as $300 / minute.
Check out production music libraries and see what they charge for similar licenses. A Web Media license through Audio Network costs $135 for a 3 minute track, for instance. And that is royalty free.
It can be difficult to put a price on our music, as it isn't as simple as an hourly rate, so we look for ways to justify our price, so the producer doesnt respond with "Pfft! I can get the same thing for HALF that price!" or something similar.

It's up to you to judge how much the music is worth to him, whether he knows that your track is perfect, or if he will go and find something else more affordable.
Try and find the most expensive licenses online and use them in your justification.


----------

