# LA or bust?



## jaketanner

Hello all,

Am I doomed by trying to get into scoring for TV and film, by not living in LA? How many of you are living in small towns, and small states, and still manage to work full time as a composer? 
Thanks for the replies.

Jake


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## Phillip

I live in a small town. I work all the time - delivering pizza. Good luck to you.


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## Desire Inspires

Move to LA.


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## PeterBaumann

I'm about to move to a small town from a busy city, although not one with a particularly active filmmaker scene beyond the uni. Hoping to be doing this full time but we'll see how realistic that'll be after a month or two!


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## marclawsonmusic

The advice I have heard from some established composers is to stay where you are and work on your craft until you get to the point where you are ready to make the big leap. Once you get out there, you will be one among many. It is also very expensive to live in LA.


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## jaketanner

Thanks for the replies...Moving isn't really an option, hence the question if it's possible to work. Seems like it should be, but I understand that working remotely with a director from LA, would be near impossible. I do agree to fine tune my skills locally first, so thanks for that.


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## PeterBaumann

I suppose it also depends on what kind of business network you've managed to set up already. For me, it's the initial meeting of directors which is likely to be more tricky in a smaller town than a city, but then actually working with them remotely is perfectly manageable with the odd commute for them/you to do spotting/final mix etc. 

And then, hopefully, once you've got a decent client base, you can get repeat work from them


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## Chris Hurst

I don't do this full time yet, but have scored two full length movies remotely. The first of which was released this week as it happens!

Like the post above, the initial meetings and viewings were held in London (3 1/2 hours away from me) but I was able to compose away from London and had a few meetings face to face during the projects.

I would say it is possible, however I would imagine that as the projects get bigger, then more frequent trips/meetings may be required.

I think it depends on the director and your attitude towards a bit of travelling I guess.


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## jaketanner

PeterBaumann said:


> I suppose it also depends on what kind of business network you've managed to set up already. For me, it's the initial meeting of directors which is likely to be more tricky in a smaller town than a city, but then actually working with them remotely is perfectly manageable with the odd commute for them/you to do spotting/final mix etc.
> 
> And then, hopefully, once you've got a decent client base, you can get repeat work from them



Guess that makes sense. I wouldn't mind traveling if it ever came down to that, to go meet with them, then work from my studio.


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## jaketanner

Chris Hurst said:


> I don't do this full time yet, but have scored two full length movies remotely. The first of which was released this week as it happens!
> 
> Like the post above, the initial meetings and viewings were held in London (3 1/2 hours away from me) but I was able to compose away from London and had a few meetings face to face during the projects.
> 
> I would say it is possible, however I would imagine that as the projects get bigger, then more frequent trips/meetings may be required.
> 
> I think it depends on the director and your attitude towards a bit of travelling I guess.



I love to travel, so that's not the issue. I just thought that a director would frown upon or not hire you if you were not local and accessible for meetings. But not having the experience, I wouldn't know either way how it works, or what they would prefer, or if they really don't care, as long as you produce the score on time. 

Thank you so much for sharing, and I guess first things first...demo reel.


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## nsmadsen

I've been working in the game and film industries since 2005 and have never lived in LA. I've lived in Dallas-Ft. Worth, Austin, Denver and am currently living in Cedar Falls, IA. Yup, Iowa. You don't HAVE to live in LA to make a living in game/film audio. But it does help. The more established you get, the easier it is to live anywhere and produce audio for clients. My buddy Sean Beeson also works as a full time composer and lives in Ohio.


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## jaketanner

nsmadsen said:


> I've been working in the game and film industries since 2005 and have never lived in LA. I've lived in Dallas-Ft. Worth, Austin, Denver and am currently living in Cedar Falls, IA. Yup, Iowa. You don't HAVE to live in LA to make a living in game/film audio. But it does help. The more established you get, the easier it is to live anywhere and produce audio for clients. My buddy Sean Beeson also works as a full time composer and lives in Ohio.



That's awesome and reassuring. Thanks for sharing.


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## nsmadsen

Glad that's helping! Now, at different times, I've had to supplement my income with extra things to make ends meet. I've taught piano and saxophone lessons, I also perform and record for people, I've recorded live concerts and such. I've also taught college level audio courses. I don't make my living 100% as a composer. So if that's your goal - it might be harder. I've found these days it's all about diversifying your approach and portfolio to get a wider net. 

It's true there are a ton of opportunities in LA (and other places) but there are also a ton more fellow composers all competing with each other.


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## jaketanner

nsmadsen said:


> Glad that's helping! Now, at different times, I've had to supplement my income with extra things to make ends meet. I've taught piano and saxophone lessons, I also perform and record for people, I've recorded live concerts and such. I've also taught college level audio courses. I don't make my living 100% as a composer. So if that's your goal - it might be harder. I've found these days it's all about diversifying your approach and portfolio to get a wider net.
> 
> It's true there are a ton of opportunities in LA (and other places) but there are also a ton more fellow composers all competing with each other.



I am a professional audio engineer and mixer, so composing is going to be secondary, and if it works to be full time then great, but I'm all about diversity...lol. you need to be, to be in this business nowadays. I was just wondering seeing if it was worth starting if not in LA...seems like it is.


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## Mike Greene

Speaking only for myself, the advantage to being in Los Angeles is in the random, and often unexpected, networking opportunities. Here are a few examples:

The first record I ever played on as a session player was a rap record where my next door neighbor was the producer, but didn't know any keyboard players (he was a DJ, not a musician), so he asked me if I'd do it. The record was a flop, but on the session, I met a guitar player who had a gig scoring the theme for "Kids Are People, Too," which he asked me to partner on. That was my first TV theme song. Totally random and unexpected.

I started getting session gigs after that as a keyboard player, since L.A. has (or at least had) tons of recording sessions going on. One session was for an R&B songwriter who was more of a lyricist than instrumentalist, so he asked me if I'd be interesting in partnering. We co-wrote lots of songs, with modest success. One of those songs was covered by Vanessa Williams for her first album, which put my first gold record on the wall. Session playing also lead me into opportunities to produce records. Most of these were hip hop, since there's a decent rap scene in L.A., and a couple projects also put gold records on the wall. (I hope this doesn't sound like boasting. I'm just trying to give examples.)

The first commercial I ever scored was when I was part of a weekly poker game. Just a bunch of regular guys, not an "industry" thing. One of the other guys was directing a Hot Wheels commercial, but didn't like the composers Mattel was sending him. Between hands, he asked, _"Mike, you play in bands, right? Would you be interested in taking a shot at a Hot Wheels commercial?"_ That lead to dozens and dozens of spots. Coincidentally, that same guy was the brother in law of a producer who was doing a pilot for a new kids show called Bill Nye the Science Guy. They needed recommendations for composers, so I got a call.

When I did the theme for Sleeper Cell, the reason I was considered at all was because the creator/producer was a fellow dad on our kids' soccer team. (Funny side note - we were friends, but it was still an uphill battle getting him to consider me, because previous to that, I had told him so many war stories about scoring Barbie commercials and kids' shows that he assumed I was a toy guy. That's a real thing, by the way. Producers and directors who do toy commercials have a hard time breaking into other fields.)

As weight loss commercials would say, _"These results are not typical,"_ and for sure I got lucky in these cases. Not just lucky that chance opportunities presented themselves, but also that they happened to be for things I could actually do, which is not necessarily a given. For an example of wasted opportunity, the production offices for the Oscar winning "The Artist" were right next door to my studio, and we were very friendly and talked often about their crazy silent film idea, but I didn't even bother asking about the possibility of doing the score, because my credits and reel were in a totally wrong direction for a project like that. That happens a lot where I'll meet someone will find out they're doing something interesting, but it's either not something I'd want to do or else I wouldn't be right for it.

Also for sure these sorts of things can happen in other cities. There's lots of record work in Nashville and New York, and there are lots of commercials being done everywhere. But I think these things will happen more in Los Angeles than elsewhere. Not to mention the industry events (Emmy "For Your Consideration" screenings, for instance, which are happening right now), and other opportunities that are unique to Los Angeles.

To be clear, the point of my post is not to say someone should move to Los Angeles. There are definitely disadvantages, like the cost of living here, and the overabundance of other composers already here. Making a career in composing is a long shot no matter where you are. You'll run out of money faster in L.A. than most other places, and that's something that definitely needs to be taken into account. But if you think of this as lottery tickets, the L.A. composer lottery tickets are more expensive, and are still almost always losers, but they do seem to pay off more frequently. Just my 2 cents.


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## jaketanner

Point well taken. And also a great story.

I live in Easton Pennsylvania. A stone's throw from New Jersey and about 50 minutes or so from New York. As a recording engineer for over 20 years, I know about networking and the opportunities that arise from being at the right place at the right time. But I just never thought of it thinking about composing in that same way. But I see that it would work in the exact same way as it did for me as an engineer. 

I have two Grammys under my belt for engineering, and it's all because of connections and networking. I really appreciate the story and it just got me thinking in a direction that didn't occur to me. Thank you so much for your post much appreciated.

all the best
Jake


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## Desire Inspires

Move to LA!


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## Gerhard Westphalen

What about living outside of LA? As a composer, you don't have to be constantly commuting to work so maybe you don't have to be "in" LA. Maybe somewhere around an hour and a half outside of town? You could then find a day job in the area if needed. 

I imagine it's different for composers who are already established but Michael Levine used to live in Topanga canyon at a house previously owned by Junkie XL. It had quite the view with the city on one side and the ocean on the other. After visiting, that area became my favorite place to go in the LA area. Not so convenient for his assistants that had to drive there every day. Not sure where he's living now.


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## gsilbers

jaketanner said:


> Thanks for the replies...Moving isn't really an option, hence the question if it's possible to work. Seems like it should be, but I understand that working remotely with a director from LA, would be near impossible. I do agree to fine tune my skills locally first, so thanks for that.



There could be some instances but filmaking is more of a friendship sort of thing. And they hire if they see youve done similar budget movies. Basically a composer is more akin to a "vendor" here in LA. a vendor who provides the music for a project and thats reliable, etc so directors would recommend someone they can trust. and to earn that trust you have to hang out with those poeple or hang out with a friend they know or done a project that theyve done. this is for example the case of remote control in santa monica. the directors for those movies and tv shows go hang out there with the composer, and meet the other composers and assistant who later might be the next in line. or the main composer they hire is busy for a project but says, hey you can trust my freind , also composer here in RCP and make sure it goes ok. and turns out that composer helped the main composer before and they throw back a bone like that. but they turned it into a great vendor sort of situation as they know they can crank out tons of music in short time. can someone in upstate ny do that? but thats for high end shows of course but thats the main jist. 

i see so many talented poeple on youtube and there are sooo many composers all around LA and the US and EU, but at the end of the day, getting the gig is all by connections, your presentation, reliability, chance and helping out. but you could also go to the trade shows here in LA and other filmaking events and slowly meet poeple. but those poeple will work in different stages in the filmmaking process. so they can be director in one, producer in another and so on. so it can take a while when they get in the position to choosing a composer. so developing those connections helps. also working with students in filmaking schools might help. 
so its not easy. its like if i want to be a good stock broker i would go to NYC. or if im into tech iwould go to SF and i want to learn spanish i go to miami or puerto rico. does it mean you cannot do those things from other places.. well yes, but you can see when you start understanding more how the process works that its easier if you are in LA but doesnt mean it cannot be done elsewhere now with eveything being digital.


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## gsilbers

jaketanner said:


> Point well taken. And also a great story.
> 
> I live in Easton Pennsylvania. A stone's throw from New Jersey and about 50 minutes or so from New York. As a recording engineer for over 20 years, I know about networking and the opportunities that arise from being at the right place at the right time. But I just never thought of it thinking about composing in that same way. But I see that it would work in the exact same way as it did for me as an engineer.
> 
> I have two Grammys under my belt for engineering, and it's all because of connections and networking. I really appreciate the story and it just got me thinking in a direction that didn't occur to me. Thank you so much for your post much appreciated.
> 
> all the best
> Jake


i just threw out upstate ny. there is plenty of composers in ny. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Silvestri

and film/tv shows being done there.


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## jaketanner

gsilbers said:


> i just threw out upstate ny. there is plenty of composers in ny.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Silvestri
> 
> and film/tv shows being done there.



Moving for the time being is pretty much our of the question. I was living in Nevada, Henderson to be exact, about a year ago with my wife and son...we moved back east to be closer to family, but as our circumstances change again, we may venture out west yet again...just want to plant the seeds I guess...I am barely starting out with composing and need to get some work to add to my reel before taking a chance on a big move. Maybe develop some contacts via email or IMDb, But I definitely see your point...contacts is everything. Thanks for the good advice.

Jake


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## Sean Beeson

I am as far away from LA and any major city as you could possibly be. Is being in LA or any big city necessary? No, but I always liken this question to cooking. If you want to cook the perfect pizza, there are a lot of different ways you can go about doing it. You can go to school to learn how to be a great chef, you can shadow other cooks and learn the trade, you can experiment on your own until you find your style, or really any other scenario you can imagine.

I was born and raised in a rural area. LA for me wasn't a great fit. For some people it is. I found that I flourish as a person (and thus as a composer) when I am not so concerned about image, reputation, and trying to keep up with the pace of a larger city. Some people thrive on that constant rush and bustle. It just wasn't me. I have had numerous opportunities to move and offers for jobs/positions/contracts in other large cities, but have always stuck to my guns to stay where I am. Have I lost out on more money, prestige, and likely some killer projects? Definitely. Do I regret my decision to not move? Not at all. 

What I make here, living in rural Ohio, goes a lot further than what it would in LA and it frees me up financially to make decisions that I feel are a best fit for my sanity, family, and lifestyle. I guess it all just depends on what kind of person you want and need to be to feel whole. I think if I would have moved to LA I would have lost myself somewhere along the way in a very bad way haha

That being said, I get dismissed a lot as a composer because I live in Ohio. I get dismissed by other composers, but actually even more from random people. After awhile you learn to just use that as fuel to drive what you are doing.


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## Vin

> Morricone has lived in Italy his entire life and has never desired to live in Hollywood. Morricone is also not fluent in English and will take interviews only in his native language.


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## Ashermusic

gsilbers said:


> i just threw out upstate ny. there is plenty of composers in ny.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Silvestri
> 
> and film/tv shows being done there.



Alan mostly lives in Carmel Highlands, in the Monterrey peninsula in CA and commutes to other cities. He lived in the LA area (Canyon Country, Malibu) for many years until he got rich enough that he didn't have to.


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## Dear Villain

To me, those that "belong" in L.A. will find their way there. Those that don't, will steer clear. I saw a movie a few years ago (can't remember the title) where a group of retired opera stars lived in a nursing home. One of them, a famous conductor back in the day faces criticism from one of the others that his career never amounted to the heights of fame and fortune it should/could have. He responds saying that simply by getting to make music until the end of his life, was success. 

As someone who knows I'd never feel comfortable playing the L.A. game, and as someone who generally was a loner my whole life (as in, networking with the "kewl kids" is not my forte), I chose to downsize my life/reduce my living expenses, in order to be able to pursue music on my terms. While it will never make me rich and famous, I'm building a legacy based on a catalog of works that I can be proud of. We all need to find what makes us tick and then pursue it to the best of our abilities.


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## jaketanner

I truly appreciate all the great and insightful answers and stories. Lots to consider. A comfortable living is always a plus, but not at the expense of happiness. 

Love this forum...


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## mwarsell

You're lucky to live in the same continent. I'm 5509 miles from LA. <cue in Four Yorkshiremen Monty Python sketch>


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## Aaron Sapp

I lived in L.A for about six years, then lived/worked in Jersey/NYC for two and a half years, then moved to Orlando about a year ago. While a part of my soul is still stuck in L.A, I think that's due to the small group of great friends I had out there. Nothing to do with the music industry.

If you have to be in the TV/film industry, L.A is hard to beat. I didn't have to. I worked on games and production music primarily, none of which had to do with my location at the time. I understood very quickly upon moving there that the supposed ladder up the TV/film food chain didn't line up with my aspirations/ego and immediately realized that I could potentially waste years eating proverbial table scraps, hoping to catch a break.

If I had overflowing coffers of 'f**k you' money to comfortably live/work in L.A, would I? After living in Orlando (one of the most balanced cities I've ever experienced), I really don't think so. If you're happy working, wherever you are, you're doing well, IMO. 

I really think for most, living in L.A would be a detriment. The location doesn't automatically generate more opportunities. Even if you're living right on Composer's Row in Santa Monica, you might as well be living in North Dakota. Except it's about 10x more expensive, with traffic that forbids you to regularly venture outside your domestic five-mile radius and plenty of wannabe actors/directors at every bar and Cheesecake Factory that'll ask "what do you do?" -- a ploy typically used to volunteer their industry status.

But there is an intangible lil' something about L.A that's irresistible. I usually sensed it when driving on the freeway late at night when traffic was light. Definitely a city with a lot of soul/character. If I ever move back, it'll be for those transcendent qualities and to rekindle/nurture friendships. For now I'm enjoying this quasi-nomadic existence.


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## jaketanner

Aaron Sapp said:


> I lived in L.A for about six years, then lived/worked in Jersey/NYC for two and a half years, then moved to Orlando about a year ago. While a part of my soul is still stuck in L.A, I think that's due to the small group of great friends I had out there. Nothing to do with the music industry.
> 
> If you have to be in the TV/film industry, L.A is hard to beat. I didn't have to. I worked on games and production music primarily, none of which had to do with my location at the time. I understood very quickly upon moving there that the supposed ladder up the TV/film food chain didn't line up with my aspirations/ego and immediately realized that I could potentially waste years eating proverbial table scraps, hoping to catch a break.
> 
> If I had overflowing coffers of 'f**k you' money to comfortably live/work in L.A, would I? After living in Orlando (one of the most balanced cities I've ever experienced), I really don't think so. If you're happy working, wherever you are, you're doing well, IMO.
> 
> I really think for most, living in L.A would be a detriment. The location doesn't automatically generate more opportunities. Even if you're living right on Composer's Row in Santa Monica, you might as well be living in North Dakota. Except it's about 10x more expensive, with traffic that forbids you to regularly venture outside your domestic five-mile radius and plenty of wannabe actors/directors at every bar and Cheesecake Factory that'll ask "what do you do?" -- a ploy typically used to volunteer their industry status.
> 
> But there is an intangible lil' something about L.A that's irresistible. I usually sensed it when driving on the freeway late at night when traffic was light. Definitely a city with a lot of soul/character. If I ever move back, it'll be for those transcendent qualities and to rekindle/nurture friendships. For now I'm enjoying this quasi-nomadic existence.



Thank you for sharing...I am getting a lot of great feedback about LA...living there and the lack of...both present pros and cons...thanks again...lots to consider.


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## Ashermusic

Wow, I have lived in LA since 1972 and I could not disagree with that last paragraph more. I find it to be a city with no soul and devoid of character.


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## Aaron Sapp

For me it was very much there. But I suppose if I ate the same steak for 45 years, I'd develop some vestige of contempt.


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## Ashermusic

More McDonald's than steak


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## chillbot

Ashermusic said:


> Wow, I have lived in LA since 1972 and I could not disagree with that last paragraph more. I find it to be a city with no soul and devoid of character.


Jay, I couldn't disagree more with you unable to disagree more!

I can see where you're coming from, it's a super transient town... there's not as much of a born-and-raised culture like there is in Boston. Everyone is from everywhere. And the traffic sucks, and the smog sucks, and it's frustrating trying to get anywhere. But the town has a vibe, for sure. I happen to like it. It helps to live up by the mountains though....


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## Ashermusic

My daughter was born and raised here. She later lived in Chicago for a year and hated to come back. She said that the people were friendlier and there was so much more of a sense of community.

I think loners tend to like LA more than people who are more gregarious, like I am.


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## Patrick de Caumette

Morricone lives in Italy, but he was the top dog there before he made it big internationally.
Same for Desplat in France.
Being in LA or NY certainly helps a lot for a film career, but if you live in London, Paris, Rome, Madrid, Tokyo...etc you have a good shot at expanding your career by first succeeding in a place that has opportunities.


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## desert

Plenty of hot single girls in my area. No need to move to LA...


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## charlieclouser

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> What about living outside of LA? As a composer, you don't have to be constantly commuting to work so maybe you don't have to be "in" LA. Maybe somewhere around an hour and a half outside of town? You could then find a day job in the area if needed.
> 
> I imagine it's different for composers who are already established but Michael Levine used to live in Topanga canyon at a house previously owned by Junkie XL. It had quite the view with the city on one side and the ocean on the other. After visiting, that area became my favorite place to go in the LA area. Not so convenient for his assistants that had to drive there every day. Not sure where he's living now.



I'm in Topanga as well, but much less far up in the sticks than Michael / Junkie's old house - getting to that place feels like climbing up a tree and out onto a branch! 

For many years I was in Hollywood - Beachwood Canyon, just under the Hollywood sign. I loved it.... or I thought I did. When we moved out to Topanga, the wife and I promised ourselves that we'd go back to Hollywood every week to see a movie at the Cinerama Dome or the Chinese, eat at our favorites spots, etc. Never happens. The movie theater down in Calabasas is actually much better than either of the big spots, although not as big as the Dome, and the projection and sound are top-notch. But what surprised us was the fact that on a school night at the ten pm show, the place is EMPTY. We saw The Hobbit on the Wednesday after opening weekend, and we were the only two people in the theater. Between that, the much better selection of uncrowded restaurants, the lack of traffic, the peace and quiet - we hate Hollywood now! But we *love* Los Angeles.

I've lived in central Pennsylvania, rural Vermont, Massachusetts, Manhattan (four times), Brooklyn, The Bronx, Queens, Jersey City, New Orleans, and Los Angeles (three times) - and I'd never live anywhere else.

But Topanga isn't all that much cheaper than Burbank, the Valley, etc. - it's just nicer, greener, more relaxed. It is nice that we're still "in LA", and no directors or anybody thinks, "Oh geez, this guy lives in like San Pedro or somewhere". Everything is an hour away in LA anyway (or 20 minutes if it's midnight!), so no biggie. One drag about living in Hollywood was that I'd often get a call from a director that went something like this: 

"Hey man, I'm just leaving Paramount, and I'm heading over to Universal, and since I'm coming right past your place I thought I'd stop by - because I just love watching you do what you do man!"

So then I'd have to scramble to empty the ashtrays and put on pants, and then my afternoon was shot. I guess I can't complain about hanging out with directors or whatever, but now that I'm a little farther out, they only come over when we really have to work. Santa Monica is just as far from most places as Topanga, or Malibu, or Hollywood, etc. Nothing's right around the corner in LA unless it's by accident!

We do have a good group of composers out here, and every couple of months we have a get together to talk shop, talk shit, and I guess you could call it networking - although it's all composers and not filmmakers per se, it's a great way to meet folks who could help with orchestration, recommend a vocalist, give you the number for a conductor or a sitar player, etc. 

We just had one of our events last night at my place - the featured speaker was Kim Kluge, showing some scenes and talking about his experience composing the score for Martin Scorsese's movie "Silence", and our special guest was Doreen Ringer-Ross, head of film and tv music at BMI. Although Michael Levine is usually there, his new duties as a member of the Board of Governors of the Television Academy kept him occupied, since the Emmy™ submission deadline is Monday - but our other regulars like Cliff Martinez, Andrew Gross, and Ceiri Torjussen were in the house, along with about a dozen other working composers. 

We spend the evening talking about every aspect of being a working composer - from the spiritual to the technical. It's pretty informal, but it's great to compare notes and hear about the whole spectrum of scoring experiences - from "Silence" to "Saw" is a pretty wide range!

That's the kind of thing that doesn't really happen anywhere but Los Angeles. Where else can you nibble on cheese-n-crackers with the head honcho at BMI, the guy who Scorsese now calls "Maestro", and a Governor for the Emmys™? And this isn't some highfalutin' group of movers and shakers - it's just us refugees from the sprawl, out in the woods.


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## charlieclouser

And Werner loves LA as well:

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/la-et-mn-werner-herzog-on-sunset-blvd-20170411-story.html


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## Daniel James

Weather is better here than the UK thats for sure!!

-DJ


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## Rctec

For me it's not about "can you write music from anywhere in the world?"... it's about being close to the director, the editor, the sound designer - everybody that has a hand in shaping the film. There are - at least for me - moments that happen only when we are all in the same room together. Writing for movies is a way of peeling away layers of uncertainty before I can get in touch with what's underneath and inside the thing. It's not something I can just 'phone in. I need to look the director in the eye - regularly. Having a director as co-conspirator in the room during the process helps to be more reckless, gives wings to ideas and very often helps shape the cut. I've never thought of my career as a career, more a way of having an interesting life surrounded by immensely passionate and talented people. I've never taken a movie because I thought it was going to be successful, but always because it offered me an opportunity to have an adventure, experiment - and most importantly - to spend my life in the company of interesting and inspiring people. And I've surrounded myself with musicians that - quite honestly - I'm in awe off and that amaze me every day.
I don't really socialize outside the studio. I'm probably a crashing bore to have at a party. But L.A. is all about extraordinary talented artist with a fire in their belly trying to reach out to equal-minded spirits that help them realize their dreams. Say what you want - no one came to the place to make a bad movie - but some artists are just stronger at maintaining their vision than others. And yes, I work in a commercial field that is supposed to entertain and sometimes can get close to being more than just cookie-cutter. And it gives me an immense amount of freedom and creative license. Always has. Even when I didn't have a career to speak off.
Yes, it gets rough. No, it's not for the faint of heart. But where else can you be sure that, if an idea comes to you at 4:00 am, you'll find someone ready to help you record it?
But - when all is said and done - it's about communication. Being in the same room, or just nipping over to the cutting room to get your bearings...
When "Dreamworks" first started, I somehow got the job as head of music (don't ask me why...), with a nice office. After ten years on the job, I'd never been to my office once, because everyone wanted to come over to our studio where we actually made music - not shuffled paper. And I remember the first time going to Amblin seeing John Williams' writing room - right by Steven Spielberg's office. I'm sure he could have written from any place in the world but I think they both knew to keep your friends close, but your composers closer...


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## Daniel James

Rctec said:


> For me it's not about "can you write music from anywhere in the world?"... it's about being close to the director, the editor, the sound designer - everybody that has a hand in shaping the film. There are - at least for me - moments that happen only when we are all in the same room together. Writing for movies is a way of peeling away layers of uncertainty before I can get in touch with what's underneath and inside the thing. It's not something I can just 'phone in. I need to look the director in the eye - regularly. Having a director as co-conspirator in the room during the process helps to be more reckless, gives wings to ideas and very often helps shape the cut. I've never thought of my career as a career, more a way of having an interesting life surrounded by immensely passionate and talented people. I've never taken a movie because I thought it was going to be successful, but always because it offered me an opportunity to have an adventure, experiment - and most importantly - to spend my life in the company of interesting and inspiring people. And I've surrounded myself with musicians that - quite honestly - I'm in awe off and that amaze me every day.
> I don't really socialize outside the studio. I'm probably a crashing bore to have at a party. But L.A. is all about extraordinary talented artist with a fire in their belly trying to reach out to equal-minded spirits that help them realize their dreams. Say what you want - no one came to the place to make a bad movie - but some artists are just stronger at maintaining their vision than others. And yes, I work in a commercial field that is supposed to entertain and sometimes can get close to being more than just cookie-cutter. And it gives me an immense amount of freedom and creative license. Always has. Even when I didn't have a career to speak off.
> Yes, it gets rough. No, it's not for the faint of heart. But where else can you be sure that, if an idea comes to you at 4:00 am, you'll find someone ready to help you record it?
> But - when all is said and done - it's about communication. Being in the same room, or just nipping over to the cutting room to get your bearings...
> When "Dreamworks" first started, I somehow got the job as head of music (don't ask me why...), with a nice office. After ten years on the job, I'd never been to my office once, because everyone wanted to come over to our studio where we actually made music - not shuffled paper. And I remember the first time going to Amblin seeing John Williams' writing room - right by Steven Spielberg's office. I'm sure he could have written from any place in the world but I think they both knew to keep your friends close, but your composers closer...



Sound advise! you said this once before. One of the main reasons I am here. So far the advice has been spot on. Attending spotting sessions and having directors in your studio is incredibly more collaborative and creative than via skype!!

-DJ


----------



## Rctec

Daniel James said:


> Sound advise! you said this once before. One of the main reasons I am here. So far the advice has been spot on. Attending spotting sessions and having directors in your studio is incredibly more collaborative and creative than via skype!!
> 
> -DJ


And you are a talented chap.... when are we doing something together?


----------



## jononotbono

Daniel James said:


> Weather is better here than the UK thats for sure!!
> 
> -DJ



Right, that's it. I'm moving. Jokes aside, my only ambition now is to live in LA. Nothing else is important. I've followed your online music life for a while and Bravo man! Seriously great! Onwards and upwards!


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## Nils Neumann

Rctec said:


> And you are a talented chap.... when are we doing something together?


whatever you do together, I will buy it!


----------



## Ashermusic

So for the OP, I think it comes down to the kind of life you want to lead. If you want to be a "Hans Zimmer" (not that anyone else can be) then LA is a prime place to try to pursue that. But if you want to make a living making music AND lead a more balanced life as part of a larger community, not to mention a less expensive and challenging one, it may not be the right choice.

I moved to LA from Boston in 1972. I had no choice but to leave Boston for the ambitions I had. I am not sure that is still true for a young person from Boston now. But I can say this: if all my work contacts were not here, my daughter and her husband, my brother and his family and my wife could readjust to the cold weather (she says she cannot) I would not still be living here.


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## URL

I'm not good at partys, I lack "talented" I live in A.C and the only positive thing is - I don't have to cooling down my computers it happens automatically when pulling down the heat in a room. To much ice outside...
But I'm quit good at writing "cool" songs...I think.
Don't be depressed because your not in LA, sun is shinning 24/7 and long beaches soft drinks/huge musicstores
you have to work with music 15 hours a day who wants to live that way...
LA have to wait for life after this.


----------



## SillyMidOn

jaketanner said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Am I doomed by trying to get into scoring for TV and film, by not living in LA? How many of you are living in small towns, and small states, and still manage to work full time as a composer?
> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> Jake


We had a similar thread that ran over several pages not too long ago:

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/trip-to-los-angeles-advice-please.52157/


----------



## URL

Haha.


----------



## jononotbono

URL said:


> you have to work with music 15 hours a day who wants to live that way...



It's the only way to live. 4am till Midnight is my new 9 to 5!


----------



## URL

jononotbono said:


> It's the only way to live. 4am till Midnight is my new 9 to 5!



Of course it is, I'm just a little "jealous" of those who fix it- for those who have the opportunity in LA- go for it.


----------



## Mike Greene

charlieclouser said:


> One drag about living in Hollywood was that I'd often get a call from a director that went something like this:
> 
> "Hey man, I'm just leaving Paramount, and I'm heading over to Universal, and since I'm coming right past your place I thought I'd stop by - because I just love watching you do what you do man!"


Ha! I hear you on that, except in my case, it's rappers. It's been 15 years since I did any hip hop records, but I *still* get unannounced visits every few months. _"Hey Mike! I was in the neighborhood . . . "_

This was actually one of the main reasons I kept the Hollywood studio instead of working at home. The last thing I want is for any clients to ever know my home address. At the studio, I can always claim I'm working and need to get back to it, whereas if I'm at home sitting in the pool when a visitor drops by, it's a little harder to claim I'm "super busy."


----------



## thesteelydane

Dang, I just moved from Hanoi to Copenhagen for the same reason that you all want to be in LA for - I realized I would never get the career as a composer I would like if I stayed in Hanoi. But Copenhagen is so expensive all I do is teach just to pay rent. In Hanoi I only had to work a couple of hours a day as a remote session musician, and could spend the rest of my time on studying and writing music. I miss that now, and am beginning to think it might have been better to stay on that path a couple years longer. So should someone starting out move to a bigger city to get the first gig, or do you wait till you've done some smaller things first?


----------



## Daniel James

Rctec said:


> And you are a talented chap.... when are we doing something together?



Lets chat when you are back from your tour!. I'm literally round the corner these days! 

-DJ


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## Aaron Sapp

Funny story... while I was in L.A, a buddy of mine worked for a major animation company. They were looking for a composer for a new show and he threw my name in the pot, vouched for me, etc. They were interested, asked what sort of work I'd done and then asked the golden question:

*Execs: *"Where's his studio?"

*Buddy:* "He uses one of his bedrooms in his apartment in Woodland Hills."

*Execs: *"Oh... ummm..." 

Apparently the composer they ultimately hired had a nice big room in Santa Monica with enough space to lounge, smoke cigars n' sip whiskey.


----------



## NoamL

Daniel James said:


> Weather is better here than the UK thats for sure!!
> 
> -DJ



Actually disagree Daniel, it's summer all the damn time! And then fall for 2 months. I lived in Walla Walla, WA (right next to Rhubarb Rhubarb, ID) for four years and NYC for two, and I'd much rather the whole industry pack its bags and move to either of those towns. It SNOWS when it ought to, and there's no traffic. Those are the two big downsides to LA.

PS - a HZ + DJ collab? Hell yeah!


----------



## mwarsell

Daniel James said:


> Lets chat when you are back from your tour!. I'm literally round the corner these days!
> 
> -DJ



So...next Pepsi-induced tutorial will be about getting hired online by Hz? Should be a hit.

No, joking apart, this is fantastic news for you, Daniel. You are very good. You have worked so hard and deserve every break coming at your way - was it from Hz or someone else. 

Oh this makes a tingling sensation in my tummy. Literally.


----------



## URL

It is interesting why you should work 24/7 when you live in "LA" when composing music, because of...DEADlines?

An optimized life is like a perfect 3rd, you work 8 hours sleep 8 hours may not eat for 8 hours but relax a little by the pole reflects on what you last composed or create conditions by inspired by different meetings with people, traveling, jogging ... maybe try to play on ice instruments ...

It seems that the risk of never looking out of the studio affects the judgment of whats is this good or not for what you just composed, maybe the risk of repeating yourself is more apparent in composing /arranging?

No tan on the face, arms like matches, drinking coffee -eating candy to keep you awake, relax by catching a blow on a ciggarette
It's not particularly healthy life to believe the repotage that's on YouTube about a LA composer's everyday life ...


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## marclawsonmusic

URL said:


> It is interesting why you should work 24/7 when you live in "LA" when composing music, because of...DEADlines?
> 
> An optimized life is like a perfect 3rd, you work 8 hours sleep 8 hours may not eat for 8 hours but relax a little by the pole reflects on what you last composed or create conditions by inspired by different meetings with people, traveling, jogging ... maybe try to play on ice instruments ...
> 
> It seems that the risk of never looking out of the studio affects the judgment of whats is this good or not for what you just composed, maybe the risk of repeating yourself is more apparent in composing /arranging?
> 
> No tan on the face, arms like matches, drinking coffee -eating candy to keep you awake, relax by catching a blow on a ciggarette
> It's not particularly healthy life to believe the repotage that's on YouTube about a LA composer's everyday life ...



Please post some of your tracks so we can hear how a perfectly balanced 8/8/8 life leads to better music.

The best music I have ever heard comes from obsessive, compulsive, demented, fragmented, disturbed, and generally unbalanced individuals... I am sure there are exceptions and I am sure that the good (and pedantic) users of vi-control will point them out to me.

But if you are going to deride those who are doing great work at 4am due to their 'unbalanced' and 'minor key' lifestyle, please do everyone else a favor and at least state your name... or maybe post some amazing music so we know who the hell you are.


----------



## Rohann

Rctec said:


> And I've surrounded myself with musicians that - quite honestly - I'm in awe off and that amaze me every day.


I'm sure touring with Guthrie would have that effect on most people!


----------



## URL

I'm not saying that people that works 20 hour shift or more as composers or other professionals are living wrong lifestyle or doing a bad job, I do respect people working for what they believe in.
What I'm try to say its not a healthy life to sleep 4hours a day.... those who choose to live that way and thats fine, there are a lot of great music out there which is probably composed at night or early mornings.

I don't think that composer in general are unbalanced and I do not
think that you should be. I do not think you compose an emotional music better because your sad all the time or...?
But I'm find it hard to be objected what is god or bad in cue 4 a clock in the morning in what I just composed or don't you?

For that reason could it not be better if working a "perfect" 3d could enhanced ones compositions?


----------



## InLight-Tone

marclawsonmusic said:


> Please post some of your tracks so we can hear how a perfectly balanced 8/8/8 life leads to better music.
> 
> The best music I have ever heard comes from obsessive, compulsive, demented, fragmented, disturbed, and generally unbalanced individuals... I am sure there are exceptions and I am sure that the good (and pedantic) users of vi-control will point them out to me.
> 
> But if you are going to deride those who are doing great work at 4am due to their 'unbalanced' and 'minor key' lifestyle, please do everyone else a favor and at least state your name... or maybe post some amazing music so we know who the hell you are.


Destroying your health for art or any career for that matter is so cliche...


----------



## tack

That sickly noise we all heard was the sound of Daniel James' head exploding.


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## marclawsonmusic

InLight-Tone said:


> Destroying your health for art or any career for that matter is so cliche...



Because, clearly, that is what I was suggesting.


----------



## jononotbono

URL said:


> What I'm try to say its not a healthy life to sleep 4hours a day.... those who choose to live that way and thats fine, there are a lot of great music out there which is probably composed at night or early mornings.




Writing great music has nothing to do with what time of day it's written. Also, it's probably best not to worry about what other people choose to do with their lives and whether those choices are healthy for them. There is only 24 hrs in a day and we'll all be packing our bags soon so if someone wants to spend their time laying in a bed rather than trying to learn everything they can about music then that's fair enough. To each their own!


----------



## URL

Sorry for my bad way to explain myself.
No. Not when its written but the total hours it seems to be from 8 in the morning to 0200 next morning...
If some one is working from afternoon to next morning that a other way to live your life.

Is the result of composing better if you do for example 10-20 hours a day? Which is more rule than exception these days. And next day when you hear what you done after long hours, that do not work...and do it again...

My experience is if I'm sitting 10 hours it's enough, to spend 5-10 hours more, do not add my writing in a positiv way it's my perception and it would have been interesting to hear others?

This trend or demand (as ex. In LA) that is in this business feels almost inhumane and -of course it is up to each one to decide there life -I don't worry about that!

edit: For that reason could it not be better if working a "perfect" 3d could enhanced ones compositions?


----------



## lp59burst

Mike Greene said:


> Speaking only for myself, the advantage to being in Los Angeles is in the random, and often unexpected, networking opportunities. Here are a few examples:
> 
> The first record I ever played on as a session player was a rap record where my next door neighbor was the producer, but didn't know any keyboard players (he was a DJ, not a musician), so he asked me if I'd do it. The record was a flop, but on the session, I met a guitar player who had a gig scoring the theme for "Kids Are People, Too," which he asked me to partner on. That was my first TV theme song. Totally random and unexpected.
> 
> I started getting session gigs after that as a keyboard player, since L.A. has (or at least had) tons of recording sessions going on. One session was for an R&B songwriter who was more of a lyricist than instrumentalist, so he asked me if I'd be interesting in partnering. We co-wrote lots of songs, with modest success. One of those songs was covered by Vanessa Williams for her first album, which put my first gold record on the wall. Session playing also lead me into opportunities to produce records. Most of these were hip hop, since there's a decent rap scene in L.A., and a couple projects also put gold records on the wall. (I hope this doesn't sound like boasting. I'm just trying to give examples.)
> 
> The first commercial I ever scored was when I was part of a weekly poker game. Just a bunch of regular guys, not an "industry" thing. One of the other guys was directing a Hot Wheels commercial, but didn't like the composers Mattel was sending him. Between hands, he asked, _"Mike, you play in bands, right? Would you be interested in taking a shot at a Hot Wheels commercial?"_ That lead to dozens and dozens of spots. Coincidentally, that same guy was the brother in law of a producer who was doing a pilot for a new kids show called Bill Nye the Science Guy. They needed recommendations for composers, so I got a call.
> 
> When I did the theme for Sleeper Cell, the reason I was considered at all was because the creator/producer was a fellow dad on our kids' soccer team. (Funny side note - we were friends, but it was still an uphill battle getting him to consider me, because previous to that, I had told him so many war stories about scoring Barbie commercials and kids' shows that he assumed I was a toy guy. That's a real thing, by the way. Producers and directors who do toy commercials have a hard time breaking into other fields.)
> 
> As weight loss commercials would say, _"These results are not typical,"_ and for sure I got lucky in these cases. Not just lucky that chance opportunities presented themselves, but also that they happened to be for things I could actually do, which is not necessarily a given. For an example of wasted opportunity, the production offices for the Oscar winning "The Artist" were right next door to my studio, and we were very friendly and talked often about their crazy silent film idea, but I didn't even bother asking about the possibility of doing the score, because my credits and reel were in a totally wrong direction for a project like that. That happens a lot where I'll meet someone will find out they're doing something interesting, but it's either not something I'd want to do or else I wouldn't be right for it.
> 
> Also for sure these sorts of things can happen in other cities. There's lots of record work in Nashville and New York, and there are lots of commercials being done everywhere. But I think these things will happen more in Los Angeles than elsewhere. Not to mention the industry events (Emmy "For Your Consideration" screenings, for instance, which are happening right now), and other opportunities that are unique to Los Angeles.
> 
> To be clear, the point of my post is not to say someone should move to Los Angeles. There are definitely disadvantages, like the cost of living here, and the overabundance of other composers already here. Making a career in composing is a long shot no matter where you are. You'll run out of money faster in L.A. than most other places, and that's something that definitely needs to be taken into account. But if you think of this as lottery tickets, the L.A. composer lottery tickets are more expensive, and are still almost always losers, but they do seem to pay off more frequently. Just my 2 cents.


This reminds me of the old saying "_luck favors the prepared_..."  and the "right place... right time..." helps too...


----------



## Rohann

marclawsonmusic said:


> The best music I have ever heard comes from obsessive, compulsive, demented, fragmented, disturbed, and generally unbalanced individuals... I am sure there are exceptions and I am sure that the good (and pedantic) users of vi-control will point them out to me.



I'm not sure I agree in all cases (just an observer's opinion). If interviews are any indication, it's certainly the music-obsessed ones that write the best music, but it seems to be those that have a deep-seated love for music and would do it whether or not they had a career in it. Again if interviews are indication, it seems as if the older many composers and musicians get, the more focused and able to fit a ton of productivity into an 8-10h day they can (with exceptions of course). I can think of musicians who write late into the night because they simply get lost in an idea, and others that work more 9-5 and get tons done (i.e. Steven Wilson, writing a _very_ ambitious new solo record usually every 2 years as well as mixing and partially engineering it in some cases, mixing for other musicians on occasion, remixing and releasing records in 5.1, writing for Bass Communion, working with No-Man and Blackfield, sometimes all around the same time. He's one of the most productive artists I can think of and says he rarely works past 5pm).


----------



## InLight-Tone

jononotbono said:


> Writing great music has nothing to do with what time of day it's written. Also, it's probably best not to worry about what other people choose to do with their lives and whether those choices are healthy for them. There is only 24 hrs in a day and we'll all be packing our bags soon so if someone wants to spend their time laying in a bed rather than trying to learn everything they can about music then that's fair enough. To each their own!


That's our only options? Trying to learn everything about music or laying in bed?!? How about running up and down mountains and jumping in rivers, lakes and streams i.e., being A/Live?

Life away from nature ain't Livin in my opinion...


----------



## Rohann

jononotbono said:


> Writing great music has nothing to do with what time of day it's written. Also, it's probably best not to worry about what other people choose to do with their lives and whether those choices are healthy for them. There is only 24 hrs in a day and we'll all be packing our bags soon so if someone wants to spend their time laying in a bed rather than trying to learn everything they can about music then that's fair enough. To each their own!


I'm reminded of the "Composer's Roundtable" I watched featuring Hans, Trent Reznor, Danny Elfman, etc, among others. Hans talked about working late at night as less people would bother him (haha this is poorly paraphrased, don't quote me on this), and Trent talked about needing to be up early and not being able to work late. Depends on the personality, it seems. Passion-driven hard work is a common thread.


----------



## InLight-Tone

marclawsonmusic said:


> Because, clearly, that is what I was suggesting.


"The best music I have ever heard comes from obsessive, compulsive, demented, fragmented, disturbed, and generally unbalanced individuals..." 

Sounds like you're describing someone who in unhealthy, no?!?

"This world is a place of business. What an infinite bustle! I am awakened almost every night by the panting of the locomotive. It interrupts my dreams. There is no sabbath. It would be glorious to see mankind at leisure for once. It is nothing but work, work, work."
Thoreau


----------



## Desire Inspires

InLight-Tone said:


> "The best music I have ever heard comes from obsessive, compulsive, demented, fragmented, disturbed, and generally unbalanced individuals..."
> 
> Sounds like you're describing someone who in unhealthy, no?!?
> 
> "This world is a place of business. What an infinite bustle! I am awakened almost every night by the panting of the locomotive. It interrupts my dreams. There is no sabbath. It would be glorious to see mankind at leisure for once. It is nothing but work, work, work."
> Thoreau



Balance is for normal people. 

The great people are heavily involved in one area and uninvolved in others. I never thrive for balance when I am in the creative zone. I phase out everything I possibly can to continue to work harder and harder and harder. When the creative spirit leaves, I do whatever is fun at the moment.

It takes hard work to make it. Put in the work and stop fighting for a balance. Balance is for normal people with a day job. You have to fight for the chance to be great!


----------



## AlexRuger

As a person who has suffered from severe insomnia all his life, I will never understand those who celebrate sleeping less.


----------



## Daniel James

A good friend once said to me the most obvious and mind opening statement to me when I was really digging into my career...."There are always enough hours in the day"

Yes its absolutely true you will have to put in the hours to work at the upper levels of music BUT there are always enough hours in the day. When you start the day go for a walk, do some exercise. Do the jobs you dont need to be sitting down for standing up or away from the machine, in the sun (I have taken standing and randomly headbobbing with my new Matrixbrute synth, funnily enough I 'feel' it more.) Another good factor to LA is the great weather....makes keeping healthily active much easier. You have to look after yourself regardless of how much you put in to your career.

Also the more you do this job you realise its the time goes quick than you want it to. Its very easy to get absorbed in a cue or a sound design....so its not always the obviously obsessive or introverted people who do the long hours in work....but also the people who love and enjoy the gig!!! but to sustain it you really have to have half an eye on your health and body...remember there is always enough hours in the day.

Finally another quote I heard once: If you don't want to do something you will find an excuse if you want to do it you will find a way. I think that applies here.

-DJ


----------



## URL

If you are a composer you will work for 20 hours ...because you love it so much ... stress and bad sleep will probably cause "brain damage" that you probably get know later in life...Regardless of work, the result will not improve by 20 hours week after week. 8-10 hours work is a perfect 3d.


----------



## URL

Today's tips, jogging 30 min give yourself endorphins (Proopiomelanocortin) that are a good body substance if you want to improve your ability-have tried it myself and the following hours are sharpening at an unusually high level for me ... maybe not so much in the context ...about me


----------



## jononotbono

InLight-Tone said:


> That's our only options? Trying to learn everything about music or laying in bed?!? How about running up and down mountains and jumping in rivers, lakes and streams i.e., being A/Live?
> 
> Life away from nature ain't Livin in my opinion...



Of course they aren't the only options in life. How absurd. Do what you want. It's your life. You only get one. If people don't want to spend all their time working on music then it is their choice. Nobody else's. Pretty obvious.

And by the way, When I was 9 I lived in Arkansas USA. Used to Love running up and down mountains back then. Especially in Hot Springs. Beautiful place. This is such a cliched English thing to do but when I went up there I took a Tea Bag and had a Cup of Tea with the Volcanic water because the water is naturally boiling. I guess I could start talking about the lakes I have swum in too or the Mountain ranges I have actually Parachuted over or... why bore anyone with that stuff. Yes go and live a life. Experience everything you can. It will make you have something to actually write music about. Everybody is different (well, they think they are) and if someone doesn't want to spend every waking moment working on their musical craft then that is their choice. To keep up with the fast paced modern world of Media composition, to keep up with the gluttonous expectations of the public takes a lot of work and time. You have to love it and it's perfectly ok if you don't. It's not for everyone I guess.


----------



## URL

Most of us meet obstacles when composing or, I know I do?
They can be "different" for each one, how do you overcome them to reach the goal, are you're looking for adding 10 hours to your workday or finding other solutions...

Moving to another place might give what you're looking for to develop, but adding 10 h per day may not be the right method and that trend seems to be clearer in some places in this world.

And I do not think this discussion is boring...If you think so...you choose- It's actually interesting to get a balance in life no matter what others think.

They're clear we're a little OT now but ...
Well theres not more to say is there, good luck!


----------



## gsilbers

charlieclouser said:


> I'm in Topanga as well, but much less far up in the sticks than Michael / Junkie's old house - getting to that place feels like climbing up a tree and out onto a branch!
> 
> For many years I was in Hollywood - Beachwood Canyon, just under the Hollywood sign. I loved it.... or I thought I did. When we moved out to Topanga, the wife and I promised ourselves that we'd go back to Hollywood every week to see a movie at the Cinerama Dome or the Chinese, eat at our favorites spots, etc. Never happens. The movie theater down in Calabasas is actually much better than either of the big spots, although not as big as the Dome, and the projection and sound are top-notch. But what surprised us was the fact that on a school night at the ten pm show, the place is EMPTY. We saw The Hobbit on the Wednesday after opening weekend, and we were the only two people in the theater. Between that, the much better selection of uncrowded restaurants, the lack of traffic, the peace and quiet - we hate Hollywood now! But we *love* Los Angeles.
> 
> I've lived in central Pennsylvania, rural Vermont, Massachusetts, Manhattan (four times), Brooklyn, The Bronx, Queens, Jersey City, New Orleans, and Los Angeles (three times) - and I'd never live anywhere else.
> 
> But Topanga isn't all that much cheaper than Burbank, the Valley, etc. - it's just nicer, greener, more relaxed. It is nice that we're still "in LA", and no directors or anybody thinks, "Oh geez, this guy lives in like San Pedro or somewhere". Everything is an hour away in LA anyway (or 20 minutes if it's midnight!), so no biggie. One drag about living in Hollywood was that I'd often get a call from a director that went something like this:
> 
> "Hey man, I'm just leaving Paramount, and I'm heading over to Universal, and since I'm coming right past your place I thought I'd stop by - because I just love watching you do what you do man!"
> 
> So then I'd have to scramble to empty the ashtrays and put on pants, and then my afternoon was shot. I guess I can't complain about hanging out with directors or whatever, but now that I'm a little farther out, they only come over when we really have to work. Santa Monica is just as far from most places as Topanga, or Malibu, or Hollywood, etc. Nothing's right around the corner in LA unless it's by accident!
> 
> We do have a good group of composers out here, and every couple of months we have a get together to talk shop, talk shit, and I guess you could call it networking - although it's all composers and not filmmakers per se, it's a great way to meet folks who could help with orchestration, recommend a vocalist, give you the number for a conductor or a sitar player, etc.
> 
> We just had one of our events last night at my place - the featured speaker was Kim Kluge, showing some scenes and talking about his experience composing the score for Martin Scorsese's movie "Silence", and our special guest was Doreen Ringer-Ross, head of film and tv music at BMI. Although Michael Levine is usually there, his new duties as a member of the Board of Governors of the Television Academy kept him occupied, since the Emmy™ submission deadline is Monday - but our other regulars like Cliff Martinez, Andrew Gross, and Ceiri Torjussen were in the house, along with about a dozen other working composers.
> 
> We spend the evening talking about every aspect of being a working composer - from the spiritual to the technical. It's pretty informal, but it's great to compare notes and hear about the whole spectrum of scoring experiences - from "Silence" to "Saw" is a pretty wide range!
> 
> That's the kind of thing that doesn't really happen anywhere but Los Angeles. Where else can you nibble on cheese-n-crackers with the head honcho at BMI, the guy who Scorsese now calls "Maestro", and a Governor for the Emmys™? And this isn't some highfalutin' group of movers and shakers - it's just us refugees from the sprawl, out in the woods.




LA is great but the city planning has been awful. The housing bust of 08' affected deeply LA not only then but also now.
There hasnt been enough construction to keep up with population growth and also no real incentive for public transportation because Angelenos dont like it. The subways projects are slow to say the least.
so most entertainment jobs went to the west side to cities like santa monica venice and mar vista where all the tech companies have gone.(due in part to bad city planning in central la_). Those west side cities dont want to build up so traffic is amazingly bad because poeple on that area who work there cannot afford to live there so they have to commute from the valley or east so it makes rush hour traffic in the santa monica area move about 1 mile an hour - i kid you not - and one bed room apt for rent is up in the $2000/mo+ range and 2 bedroom houses dont go below 1 million bucks.
I lived in NYC and boston (grew up in caracas) and i have to say i do love LA the most but recently with the housing issue and traffic LA has become a little but of a nightmare. so this goes with visiting friends and i think thats why Jay mention the sense of community... LA is soo sprawled and now traffic is worst than ever its difficult to connect with friends/clients sometimes.
I live in highland park and have a few friends in west hills but just thinking about visiting them is a whole process.
I do like the new arts district around downtown area. it does look like a pool for creative talent to hang out. I like that latino, tattoo, layback vibe, warehouses, plastic arts, sci arc etc. very cool. the problem again, housing. there about 80,000!!! homeless in LA. so it feels like the walking dead in that area.
From what ive read, we need about 300K new houses a year to keep up with demand and so far its less than 50k. and LA still doesnt want to build up. or at least barely.
If there was a more centralized place in LA that could become more of a manhattan or boston or any other city where there is good public transportation, AND at the same time , have the space and layback culture venice and santa monica offer would make LA THE best place ever.
I used to live in westwood and loved being able to walk to bars and restaurants and meet new poeple, see recurrent people and neibors and thought also about going back and hanging out there but its this whole planning thing due to traffic.
On the flip side, due to traffic if i have to see someone across town, i stay longer hangin out with them just so i dont have to be in traffic.
oh well, i guess some local politics in this thread as well.


----------



## Rohann

Daniel James said:


> A good friend once said to me the most obvious and mind opening statement to me when I was really digging into my career...."There are always enough hours in the day"
> 
> Yes its absolutely true you will have to put in the hours to work at the upper levels of music BUT there are always enough hours in the day. When you start the day go for a walk, do some exercise. Do the jobs you dont need to be sitting down for standing up or away from the machine, in the sun (I have taken standing and randomly headbobbing with my new Matrixbrute synth, funnily enough I 'feel' it more.) Another good factor to LA is the great weather....makes keeping healthily active much easier. You have to look after yourself regardless of how much you put in to your career.
> 
> Also the more you do this job you realise its the time goes quick than you want it to. Its very easy to get absorbed in a cue or a sound design....so its not always the obviously obsessive or introverted people who do the long hours in work....but also the people who love and enjoy the gig!!! but to sustain it you really have to have half an eye on your health and body...remember there is always enough hours in the day.
> 
> Finally another quote I heard once: If you don't want to do something you will find an excuse if you want to do it you will find a way. I think that applies here.
> 
> -DJ


Great points, completely agree. I remember hearing that quote from a number of people in professional fields, and it's something I try to be conscious of daily. I realized that it's really a matter of what you devote your time (and attention -- more on that in a second) to; I do believe that aside from some pressing times of work, there's enough time in a day to take care of oneself, spend time with family, and work. Some days will take more of one than the other, but attending to the others likely means one's work life will be better too. In my amateur experience, I think late nights can be productive and fun, but forcing it because one thinks it's the path to success often means (for me at least) a less productive day the next, whereas having a more habitual routine of self-care and family time means I have all the more mental energy to devote to creative tasks.

I also think it's important to realize that we have a relatively finite amount of attention. Social media may not be a huge problem for people on this forum, but social media/smartphone addiction is somewhat of a pandemic and it's interesting reading the studies linking multiple media usage to depression and anxiety, and the addictive mechanisms of social media and how they semi-permanently reduce one's ability to focus (not to mention being awfully taxing on one's mental energy and sleep). For someone that grew up sort of around the development of social media (starting with chat apps for early Windows), it's been something I've been far more conscious of the last while: just how detrimental these kind of daily, mindless distractions can be to one's longterm goals and overall wellbeing. In many cases I haven't needed more time, I've simply needed to use the time I have far more efficiently, and bing, all of a sudden my day doesn't feel so full after all.



Ashermusic said:


> Wow, I have lived in LA since 1972 and I could not disagree with that last paragraph more. I find it to be a city with no soul and devoid of character.


I've only visited a handful of times, and while I certainly agree that it seems like a city bustling with creative opportunity and the like (I understand why people move there), as far as the city _itself_ being soulful and full of character...Prague? Stockholm? Helsinki? Reykjavik? Venice? Montreal? New York? Portland? Sure. But never in my time in LA have either of those adjectives come to mind. It's large and sprawling, and I'm sure there are lovely areas for people whose personality jive with that kind of environment, but most of the people I know who live in the surrounding area have few positive things to say of the city as a whole.


----------



## FredericBernard

Desire Inspires said:


> Balance is for normal people.
> 
> It takes hard work to make it. Put in the work and stop fighting for a balance. Balance is for normal people with a day job. You have to fight for the chance to be great!



That's so true! +1!
Same as I'm most productive in the night (during 0:0 to 6:00 in the morning). And I highly doubt that I'm the only composer with such a weird sleeping pattern. :D

As for LA; my plan is to stay in Germany, continue working into the production music business for a while (maybe a few years) and writing great music and jingles daily and upload frequently, same for sheet music and cd sales on which I especially still need to work on. Maybe also do some more freelancing works additionally. Everything just til the point that the monthly earnings are enough and at a convingly steady level.

...then I could move to LA just completely without any preasure or existential fears, as I got my passive income from production music I worked on all the years before anyway and would have nothing to loose. Next I would start roaming the city, intensify the contacts with some LA peoples I've worked with before but now meet them personally for the first time and can shake hands in real life. Maybe I would even seek for a "mentor" (like a experienced music supervisor, orchestrator or composer), to help me getting my foot into the door and I'd start building up even more personal networks.

That's my (naive??! I hope not!) plan.


----------



## Kyle Preston

I'm reminded of a good analogy here. When I was younger I toured in different bands performing all the time. I was a guitar player – never wore ear plugs. Wanted to _feel_ the music. 

It was great, honestly. Overwhelming my body with distortion (and crash cymbals and screaming vox). It felt amazing. Every. Single. Night!

Fast forward 10ish years, a few months ago I started noticing symptoms of tinnitus. It sucked, especially at night trying to unwind with a book and some silence. If I knew then what I'd experience now, I would've worn the damn ear plugs. 

Take care of your body and mind – your older self will appreciate it


----------



## charlieclouser

Daniel James said:


> A good friend once said to me the most obvious and mind opening statement to me when I was really digging into my career...."There are always enough hours in the day"



My first mentor told me something similar, but sort of mirror-imaged:

"The work will always expand to fill all the time that's available."


----------



## Daniel James

charlieclouser said:


> My first mentor told me something similar, but sort of mirror-imaged:
> 
> "The work will always expand to fill all the time that's available."



So there are always enough hours but they will always be filled with work.....this is like a composers explanation of infinite! 

I guess going in you have to understand what will be asked of you. Its going to be tough, its going to be demanding but most things worth doing in this life are.

-DJ


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## KerrySmith

I was in NYC doing this work for 18 years, and have been in a smaller city (Portland) for the last 7. I do... well enough here, but every time I go to LA, I do come home with some work, but people opine "I wish you were here. We could do so much more." So I've had enough of that "smaller city" idea and will probably uproot the family and head down this summer.


----------



## KerrySmith

charlieclouser said:


> I'm in Topanga as well, but much less far up in the sticks than Michael / Junkie's old house - getting to that place feels like climbing up a tree and out onto a branch!
> Kudos to you! So beautiful up there. I was just looking at houses in Topanga, but the whiplash involved in driving the kid to and from school every day has me looking on flatter land.


----------



## Desire Inspires

KerrySmith said:


> I was in NYC doing this work for 18 years, and have been in a smaller city (Portland) for the last 7. I do... well enough here, but every time I go to LA, I do come home with some work, but people opine "I wish you were here. We could do so much more." So I've had enough of that "smaller city" idea and will probably uproot the family and head down this summer.



Good deal!

You have to strike while you are hot and keep going until you run out of steam.


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## jaketanner

I scored a TV show promo...hopefully it will get picked up. w
Will I need to be by the action, or does what everyone said still apply? Show up for meetings, but I can work remotely...speaking strictly for a TV series now, not a movie.

Thanks for all the posts!


----------



## charlieclouser

jaketanner said:


> I scored a TV show promo...hopefully it will get picked up. w
> Will I need to be by the action, or does what everyone said still apply? Show up for meetings, but I can work remotely...speaking strictly for a TV series now, not a movie.
> 
> Thanks for all the posts!



Well, it all depends.... on how the producers want to work. In a lot of tv series situations, it's the producer(s) / show runner(s) who need to sign off on the score, since there are often a bunch of directors working in rotation. Some of these folks are too busy putting out fires to sit around your studio listening to musical sketches, in which case you don't need to be right around the corner. On the other side of the city might be fine, but the other side of the state / country might be a problem since you'll probably need to show up in person for the spotting sessions. If you're established, in high demand, or have a special relationship with the powers that be, some folks actually don't show up in person at all. One show my music editor is on says he's never even met the composer, who literally phones it in - but he's quite established and his legion of minions are actually "doing" the score.

But these cases are rare.

If your show runner *does* want to sit around with you listening to half-finished music, then you *do* need to be pretty close. Even where I'm located, out in Topanga, which takes anywhere from 30 to 60 minutes to get to from Hollywood or Santa Monica, is probably too far. That's when you need to be as close as you can get to the action. But to be honest I've never had this situation on a tv series, even when I was located right in Hollywood. It's always been: show up at the spotting session, discuss in detail and take copious notes, and then it's, "send us rough mixes, and we'll see you next week!". That's why it was okay for me to move out to the sticks.

In terms of getting your rough mixes approved, you'll either be making QuickTime movies with your music mixed with the rough dialog and sfx and sending them to the authorities, or, due to increased need for security in these troubled times, sending just the music cues to the picture editors' assistant who can put them against picture and then make that picture available to the producers using whatever secure picture preview and streaming solution they're using - Pix, Dax, etc. 

On my first series, I'd make VHS tapes and have my assistant drop them in the show runner's mailbox at three in the morning. On my second series, it was DVDs. For the last eight years or so it's been all uploading stereo mixes of cues to the picture editors and they lay them against picture. Seems these days lots of show runners like to preview stuff on their laptop or iPad, and those secure apps like Dax and Pix are great for this. These give the producers complete control over who can watch what, and they provide detailed information about who watched what, when and where they watched it, and for how long, and whether they watched the whole thing in one session, or skipped around, or what. They can also prevent (or permit) downloading as needed, and automatically apply watermarking to the picture files - so if someone *does* hack into the server at the VFX house and put the upcoming season of Orange Is The New Black up on a torrent (as just happened last week), the producers can figure out whose copy was stolen. (And don't be the guy whose copy of the episode got uploaded or you'll never work again in this town!) With these apps, the producers can pop in their earbuds and watch an episode in progress from anywhere they can get wifi. Since they're already using these systems to watch and approve VFX shots, ADR lines, etc. it makes it easier for them - and that's the name of the game. 

Make it easy for them. 

Whatever issues you have, whether it's bad traffic, a flat tire, no cell signal, no hard drive space.... make these problems yours and yours alone and make sure it's all completely invisible to the producers, show runners, and anybody but your wife!


----------



## SillyMidOn

charlieclouser said:


> One show my music editor is on says he's never even met the composer, who literally phones it in - but he's quite established and his legion of minions are actually "doing" the score.


... argh, those pesky minions again...


----------



## jaketanner

charlieclouser said:


> Well, it all depends.... on how the producers want to work. In a lot of tv series situations, it's the producer(s) / show runner(s) who need to sign off on the score, since there are often a bunch of directors working in rotation. Some of these folks are too busy putting out fires to sit around your studio listening to musical sketches, in which case you don't need to be right around the corner. On the other side of the city might be fine, but the other side of the state / country might be a problem since you'll probably need to show up in person for the spotting sessions. If you're established, in high demand, or have a special relationship with the powers that be, some folks actually don't show up in person at all. One show my music editor is on says he's never even met the composer, who literally phones it in - but he's quite established and his legion of minions are actually "doing" the score.
> 
> But these cases are rare.
> 
> If your show runner *does* want to sit around with you listening to half-finished music, then you *do* need to be pretty close. Even where I'm located, out in Topanga, which takes anywhere from 30 to 60 minutes to get to from Hollywood or Santa Monica, is probably too far. That's when you need to be as close as you can get to the action. But to be honest I've never had this situation on a tv series, even when I was located right in Hollywood. It's always been: show up at the spotting session, discuss in detail and take copious notes, and then it's, "send us rough mixes, and we'll see you next week!". That's why it was okay for me to move out to the sticks.
> 
> In terms of getting your rough mixes approved, you'll either be making QuickTime movies with your music mixed with the rough dialog and sfx and sending them to the authorities, or, due to increased need for security in these troubled times, sending just the music cues to the picture editors' assistant who can put them against picture and then make that picture available to the producers using whatever secure picture preview and streaming solution they're using - Pix, Dax, etc.
> 
> On my first series, I'd make VHS tapes and have my assistant drop them in the show runner's mailbox at three in the morning. On my second series, it was DVDs. For the last eight years or so it's been all uploading stereo mixes of cues to the picture editors and they lay them against picture. Seems these days lots of show runners like to preview stuff on their laptop or iPad, and those secure apps like Dax and Pix are great for this. These give the producers complete control over who can watch what, and they provide detailed information about who watched what, when and where they watched it, and for how long, and whether they watched the whole thing in one session, or skipped around, or what. They can also prevent (or permit) downloading as needed, and automatically apply watermarking to the picture files - so if someone *does* hack into the server at the VFX house and put the upcoming season of Orange Is The New Black up on a torrent (as just happened last week), the producers can figure out whose copy was stolen. (And don't be the guy whose copy of the episode got uploaded or you'll never work again in this town!) With these apps, the producers can pop in their earbuds and watch an episode in progress from anywhere they can get wifi. Since they're already using these systems to watch and approve VFX shots, ADR lines, etc. it makes it easier for them - and that's the name of the game.
> 
> Make it easy for them.
> 
> Whatever issues you have, whether it's bad traffic, a flat tire, no cell signal, no hard drive space.... make these problems yours and yours alone and make sure it's all completely invisible to the producers, show runners, and anybody but your wife!




Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed and informative reply. The show's producers are based in Vegas, but depending where and if it gets picked up, I guess I will make the decision to either travel extensively, or uproot the family...if the salary is worth it...lol


----------



## charlieclouser

Well, the situation I was describing only relates to my experience scoring weekly, network, hour-long, drama series - and these were old-school 23-episode seasons, not these 10-episode snack-sized things they call "seasons" nowadays! One episode a week, no more than ten days (usually seven) from spotting to delivery, and at least five or six in a row before any kind of break in the schedule. So things were pretty frantic in post-production-land.

With anything related to streaming services, like Netflix / Amazon type series where they don't have to meet a weekly scheduled air time, the post schedule can be whatever works for the team - so it might not be the weekly drive to the spotting session. It might be dealing with bricks of episodes all at once. 

In some cases, like reality-type shows or true-life crime things like "The First 48" they might even have the composer deliver a "music package" which is sort of a library of cues, stingers, act-outs, etc. and then the editors drop them into the episodes as needed. In a situation like this, you might meet and talk at the start of the process, then retreat back to the woodshed for X number of weeks to create the music, sending bits as they're finished and getting feedback on what works, and then polish and expand on what's working until the music library reaches critical mass. Then the editors will rinse-n-repeat as the episodes are finished.

If the post team is actually in some non-LA location then you might have a good case for not relocating there, but if they're shooting / producing in Vegas but editing / mixing in LA then it's anybody's guess. 

Still, there's a huge range of possibilities on how and where shows get produced these days. Ten or twenty years ago it was more of a certainty that shows had to be edited / mixed in LA because that's where all of the facilities were located - from color correction to audio mixing. But these days so much more can be done with off-the-shelf computers that it's definitely possible to do most of the post production wherever is convenient for the producers, some of whom will want to have the post done down the street from where they're shooting.


----------



## Rohann

Daniel James said:


> So there are always enough hours but they will always be filled with work.....this is like a composers explanation of infinite!
> 
> I guess going in you have to understand what will be asked of you. Its going to be tough, its going to be demanding but most things worth doing in this life are.
> 
> -DJ


I'm curious as to your perspective on this when it comes to games instead of TV/film. Did you notice any significant differences working on MGSV in terms of work hours, the need to be in a particular city (i.e. LA), etc? It seems like game studios are much more scattered and many composers seem more remote.


----------



## Daniel James

Rohann said:


> I'm curious as to your perspective on this when it comes to games instead of TV/film. Did you notice any significant differences working on MGSV in terms of work hours, the need to be in a particular city (i.e. LA), etc? It seems like game studios are much more scattered and many composers seem more remote.



Most certainly depends on your role in the project. I was able to work remotely on MGSV as they had an inhouse composer at the studio in Japan so he could relay what work we needed to get done and I could skype in to him to discuss (I did go over and meet him a few times in Japan though to make life easier). On my current project however with Amazon I have a significantly bigger role to play so being in LA means its only an hour or so to their studio in Irvine if I need to go see specific parts of the game which are much easier to show in person than over skype as you have the added option of walking over to another team member to see how your input will impact other sections of the productions.

So yeah being LA makes it possible not only for the developers and directors to visit me but also for me to goto them. Worth mentioning too that some of the best ideas for projects and directions happen over a beer. Being a human being to people seems to matter too....its a feeling that is hard to emulate over Skype.

-DJ


----------



## desert

So did Hans just prove you don't need to be in LA to find work, considering he asked DJ to collab with him over the internet?

It's not full time but it's definitely an opportunity.


----------



## Puzzlefactory

Daniel James said:


> A good friend once said to me the most obvious and mind opening statement to me when I was really digging into my career...."There are always enough hours in the day"



Problem is, those hours get filled very quickly. If you're not already a working professional composer, then 8 of those hours are your day job plus another 6-8 are sleeping, leaving 8-10 hours for the rest of your life (of which composing is a part).


----------



## Daniel James

desert said:


> So did Hans just prove you don't need to be in LA to find work, considering he asked DJ to collab with him over the internet?
> 
> It's not full time but it's definitely an opportunity.



(I live in LA)



Puzzlefactory said:


> Problem is, those hours get filled very quickly. If you're not already a working professional composer, then 8 of those hours are your day job plus another 6-8 are sleeping, leaving 8-10 hours for the rest of your life (of which composing is a part).



And of course everyone sets their own priorities in life. I have sacrificed a lot to get the opportunity to do what I want with my life. While others were out partying I was in studying sound design while others were off on holiday I was learning about orchestration, while others were spending whole weekend on benders I was writing cues to short films no one will ever see. They are the choices I made, they made me who I am today and gave me the opportunities to do what I do. 

If you want to go on holiday do it, if you want a 9-5 a wife and kids do it, if you want to have an active social life do it. Just know that there will be others who don't and they will be the ones pushing to get what THEY want from life. There is no right or wrong, just what you want your life to be.

The best quote I heard on this (sorry for all the quotes) but it sums up my feeling on how I prioritise my life. "I'd rather live a few years as others wont, so I can live the rest of my life as others can't"

-DJ


----------



## Puzzlefactory

Daniel James said:


> (I live in LA)
> 
> 
> 
> And of course everyone sets their own priorities in life. I have sacrificed a lot to get the opportunity to do what I want with my life. While others were out partying I was in studying sound design while others were off on holiday I was learning about orchestration, while others were spending whole weekend on benders I was writing cues to short films no one will ever see. They are the choices I made, they made me who I am today and gave me the opportunities to do what I do.
> 
> If you want to go on holiday do it, if you want a 9-5 a wife and kids do it, if you want to have an active social life do it. Just know that there will be others who don't and they will be the ones pushing to get what THEY want from life. There is no right or wrong, just what you want your life to be.
> 
> The best quote I heard on this (sorry for all the quotes) but it sums up my feeling on how I prioritise my life. "I'd rather live a few years as others wont, so I can live the rest of my life as others can't"
> 
> -DJ



Absolutely, and I try to cram in as much music work as I can.

It's just very difficult around all my other commitments not matter what your internal priorities are.

If I could, I would spend all day everyday writing music but alas, it's just not possible (it's also becoming harder and harder to justify to my girlfriend the amount of time spent doing it when I'm not making money from it). 

I'm also someone who likes to work on music in big long sessions, but obviously when you have other commitments that's not how it works. You'll have an hour here or an hour there. 

I'm not saying it's not possible, and I do the best I can to juggle everything (I do an OU degree too) it's just a lot trickier in practice to impliment a statement like "make it a priority".


----------



## Rctec

desert said:


> So did Hans just prove you don't need to be in LA to find work, considering he asked DJ to collab with him over the internet?
> 
> It's not full time but it's definitely an opportunity.


Actually, he is in L.A....


----------



## desert

Daniel James said:


> (I live in LA)
> -DJ





Rctec said:


> Actually, he is in L.A....


Well, Damn... I'm going to eat my words


----------



## Rohann

Daniel James said:


> Most certainly depends on your role in the project. I was able to work remotely on MGSV as they had an inhouse composer at the studio in Japan so he could relay what work we needed to get done and I could skype in to him to discuss (I did go over and meet him a few times in Japan though to make life easier). On my current project however with Amazon I have a significantly bigger role to play so being in LA means its only an hour or so to their studio in Irvine if I need to go see specific parts of the game which are much easier to show in person than over skype as you have the added option of walking over to another team member to see how your input will impact other sections of the productions.
> 
> So yeah being LA makes it possible not only for the developers and directors to visit me but also for me to goto them. Worth mentioning too that some of the best ideas for projects and directions happen over a beer. Being a human being to people seems to matter too....its a feeling that is hard to emulate over Skype.
> 
> -DJ


Thanks for the insight, I appreciate it. That makes sense -- I would expect some travelling at the very least for a job like that. For big gigs like being an in-house composer for EA, for instance, I would expect location to be important. In general though, game studios seem somewhat spread out compared to film/TV -- Bethesda is in Maryland, Ubisoft has studios all over Europe and in eastern Canada, Bioware has multiple studios in Canada and the US, Blizzard has a studio in Irvine as well as spread out across the world, etc, and the big Japanese studios (contributing significantly to the videogame field) are obviously in Japan. All these not counting the numerous indie developers and less-big big companies elsewhere.
All this said, it appears (from the outside) that the game industry is considerably more spread out.
Do you have any idea if LA is such a big deal for game composers in this regard? Is a lot of post-pro done there despite the studios' locations? The majority of my favourite film and TV composers (as well as bigger names in the industry) seem to be located roughly in the LA area, but some bigger videogame names don't really seem to be (Jeremy Soule is in Seattle, Jesper Kyd in Burbank [as well as having lived in Manhattan], and then you have the obvious Japanese and Scandinavian composers, etc).



Puzzlefactory said:


> Problem is, those hours get filled very quickly. If you're not already a working professional composer, then 8 of those hours are your day job plus another 6-8 are sleeping, leaving 8-10 hours for the rest of your life (of which composing is a part).


True. This can be a tough cycle to break. It tends to come with sacrifices one way or another -- sometimes it means living more modestly and working fewer hours in order to be able to pursue what you want.


----------



## Daniel James

Rohann said:


> Do you have any idea if LA is such a big deal for game composers in this regard



LA is a good spot for games, there are some great studios and post pro facilities in town. I know Sony has its music department here (with Naughty Dog being around the corner) Its close enough to San Fran to goto GDC, you have E3 at the convention centre. So yes as an industry its definitely spread out so it may matter slightly less for games, but choosing not to be in town limits you away from the tv/film roles you mentioned, and being in town gives you just as much access to the rest of the states but you also have the added bonus of being here for when you need to be. I forget who said it but you don't get given anything just for being in LA but you may miss out on getting things by not being in LA.

-DJ


----------



## Rohann

Daniel James said:


> LA is a good spot for games, there are some great studios and post pro facilities in town. I know Sony has its music department here (with Naughty Dog being around the corner) Its close enough to San Fran to goto GDC, you have E3 at the convention centre. So yes as an industry its definitely spread out so it may matter slightly less for games, but choosing not to be in town limits you away from the tv/film roles you mentioned, and being in town gives you just as much access to the rest of the states but you also have the added bonus of being here for when you need to be. I forget who said it but you don't get given anything just for being in LA but you may miss out on getting things by not being in LA.
> 
> -DJ


I don't doubt there are; that's good to know. I have no doubt it would be advantageous, but was curious if my suspicions were correct. Good point re: opportunities though. Do you find the work/dynamic between yourself and the studio to be quite different in a videogame vs film setting?

I think it's a bit discouraging and daunting for new composers to realize how singular so much of the industry is in terms of location, but I suppose one's goals need to be aligned with what success looks like to a person. If making a fulltime career out of film composition is the goal, the answer seems fairly sure that it will be a lot easier to do out of that area.


----------



## Tatu

I also live about 5600miles from L.A and don't really have any desire to work in movies, but I've often fantasized about working/hanging around there for a month or two, just to see what all that hassle is about and how I'd cope under those circumstances (of course I believe I'd rock it).

If anyone feels like they might have the chops to pull it through, then they propably should go there and put themselves to the test. Just have a backup plan if - and in many cases; when - it all goes south. One life. 

Yet I'm not there.


----------



## samphony

As DJ started quote galore let me add

Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma - which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of others' opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.


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## Rohann

I wondered if I should start a new thread for this, but it seems relevant.

So it seems to "make it" (i.e. have a work-filled full time career) in TV and film may be much easier (read: opportunity filled) in the LA area. While it certainly seems advantageous to live in LA for games, would it be considered less of a career make or break decision? My perception is that it's more viable to do remotely or with fly-in visits but I want to be sure I'm on the right mental track here -- I don't want to think it's not a big deal when it may be a big handicap in actuality.
Not in the sense of doing the soundtrack for Call of Duty or the like, but having a moderately successful career in general.


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## InLight-Tone

I don't want to speak for DJ but it seems if you watch his videos it appears that he built his career in the beginning working mostly remotely...


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## Kyle Preston

InLight-Tone said:


> I don't want to speak for DJ but it seems if you watch his videos it seems that he built his career in the beginning working mostly remotely...



It's a safe way to find work before betting the farm. It's how I started and what I've been coasting on the past year or so. My wife and I chose Seattle over LA (I blame Nirvana) and I've found some work in games. Film/TV is harder to come by, but there's a few gems here. Honestly though, with the cost of living skyrocketing around here, we might as well have just moved to LA......


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## JohnG

I don't know. I live in Los Angeles but have done a lot of work overseas too. It is certainly nice to be able to have in-person meetings, but not everyone wants them anymore even if you're in the same town.

What worked last year may not keep working. Or it might work twice as well -- who knows? So I am loth to advise anybody on this course.


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## Parsifal666

Many of the (paid) composers I've spoken to do things remotely, especially in the early stages but there are plenty who do whole projects pretty much from home. I did a whole, very independent soundtrack in the box a couple of years ago, and I don't live anywhere near L.A. (wouldn't, unless I finally get that million dollar commission...ho-ho. Even then, I'd despise living there).

More, I've heard countless times about aspiring musicians and composers spending hours and days and weeks walking all over L.A. for nothing. Without having even a better-than-competent agent, it's more than likely. L.A. is a huge area, and if you go there with nothing you are going to have to get some supernaturally comfortable shoes, 'cause you'll get run ragged.

From what I've learned (and what happened in my case), you either luck out and get well acquainted with somebody(s) (which living in L.A. _*might*_ make more likely to happen...but let's face it, it might not, as mentioned it's freaking huge out there), or you have an agent that is at least a light-heavyweight. I don't think L.A. is absolutely necessary in either case, reinvest the money for that toward the agent, folks.

I could be wrong. I personally just hired the right people (musicians) for the genre I was writing in at the time. But even that didn't exactly bring me mountainous commissions, just some validity within that paradigm I guess. Going to L.A. wouldn't change that for the better, and I really hate the weather there anyway lol!


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## gsilbers

Tatu said:


> I also live about 5600miles from L.A and don't really have any desire to work in movies, but I've often fantasized about working/hanging around there for a month or two, just to see what all that hassle is about and how I'd cope under those circumstances (of course I believe I'd rock it).
> 
> If anyone feels like they might have the chops to pull it through, then they propably should go there and put themselves to the test. Just have a backup plan if - and in many cases; when - it all goes south. One life.
> 
> Yet I'm not there.



There is a LOT of waiting around. LA is just a big suburb that just keeps going and going. Maybe you get invited to a party in one city (out of the 20+ cities in "LA") and happen to hit it off with a director.. who you might or might not see him again. And that might happens every 3-6 months... meanwhile, where do you get your money? And if you are working something else, how do you make music? And if you work doing something else, what would it be? music store? I think this in a jist is what LA is about for all people entering the entertainment biz here


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## Parsifal666

gsilbers said:


> There is a LOT of waiting around. LA is just a big suburb that just keeps going and going. Maybe you get invited to a party in one city (out of the 20+ cities in "LA") and happen to hit it off with a director.. who you might or might not see him again. And that might happens every 3-6 months... meanwhile, where do you get your money? And if you are working something else, how do you make music? And if you work doing something else, what would it be? music store? I think this in a jist is what LA is about for all people entering the entertainment biz here



The most comfortable shoes possible, *supernaturally* comfortable.

Otherwise your feet will fall off. Really.


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## gsilbers

Rohann said:


> I wondered if I should start a new thread for this, but it seems relevant.
> 
> So it seems to "make it" (i.e. have a work-filled full time career) in TV and film may be much easier (read: opportunity filled) in the LA area. While it certainly seems advantageous to live in LA for games, would it be considered less of a career make or break decision? My perception is that it's more viable to do remotely or with fly-in visits but I want to be sure I'm on the right mental track here -- I don't want to think it's not a big deal when it may be a big handicap in actuality.
> Not in the sense of doing the soundtrack for Call of Duty or the like, but having a moderately successful career in general.




IF you are herein LA then you might go to your friends party who happened to be dating an executive at Disney who can refer you to a music supervisor who you can later that week invite to lunch along with the disney exec.

OR you can go to one of the many money showings of old horror movies that has the director doing a Q&A and you meet other fans of the genre who might be a producer of a small movie but already has a composer. but he later invites you the bi monthly gathering at a comicbook store to play dungeans and dragons and you hit it off with a video editor...

and so on. soooo its pretty much like dating. if I want a hot latina woman that resembles a miss universe I would go to Miami where a bunch of Venezuelan, Colombians and pto Ricans hang out. Can I meet them online or travel there and meet them? sure, but hanging out will ensure you can get some


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## Rohann

Thanks guys, I appreciate the insight. My (current) long-term goal really is to get to work on projects that allow for a lot of creative freedom and that inspire me; the format I tend to enjoy most seems to be video game composition due to the nature of how it differs from film and TV, whether in the form of bigger games or independent games.



gsilbers said:


> IF you are herein LA then you might go to your friends party who happened to be dating an executive at Disney who can refer you to a music supervisor who you can later that week invite to lunch along with the disney exec.
> 
> OR you can go to one of the many money showings of old horror movies that has the director doing a Q&A and you meet other fans of the genre who might be a producer of a small movie but already has a composer. but he later invites you the bi monthly gathering at a comicbook store to play dungeans and dragons and you hit it off with a video editor...
> 
> and so on. soooo its pretty much like dating. if I want a hot latina woman that resembles a miss universe I would go to Miami where a bunch of Venezuelan, Colombians and pto Ricans hang out. Can I meet them online or travel there and meet them? sure, but hanging out will ensure you can get some


Good point. But re: the discussion on video games vs. film, isn't the "I'm moving to Miami" approach more like the "I'm moving to LA" approach for film? From what I'm understanding, isn't the game approach more like "I want to meet a nerdy girl, so while I could move to <insert city with a high nerd population?>, I could just as easily go to conferences, join groups online, and interact with the local shops in surrounding cities, since nerds are more spread out than latina women"...? This analogy is starting to lose me.


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## gsilbers

Rohann said:


> Thanks guys, I appreciate the insight. My (current) long-term goal really is to get to work on projects that allow for a lot of creative freedom and that inspire me; the format I tend to enjoy most seems to be video game composition due to the nature of how it differs from film and TV, whether in the form of bigger games or independent games (these have often been my favourite soundtracks -- Diablo [at the time it was developed it may as well have been an indie game], Limbo, Inside, Journey, etc).
> 
> 
> Good point. But re: the discussion on video games vs. film, isn't the "I'm moving to Miami" approach more like the "I'm moving to LA" approach for film? From what I'm understanding, isn't the game approach more like "I want to meet a nerdy girl, so while I could move to <insert city with a high nerd population?>, I could just as easily go to conferences, join groups online, and interact with the local shops in surrounding cities, since nerds are more spread out than latina women"...? This analogy is starting to lose me.



Yes I think its a valid point. I met a few guys who mention to do this since LA costs are driving everyone crazy (like me!) and ive also met guys who come to the main events like namm, emmys etc but those guys they have developed relationships beforehand.. like from berklee or other music schools. but truthfully I don't know their success rate.,


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## Rohann

gsilbers said:


> Yes I think its a valid point. I met a few guys who mention to do this since LA costs are driving everyone crazy (like me!) and ive also met guys who come to the main events like namm, emmys etc but those guys they have developed relationships beforehand.. like from berklee or other music schools. but truthfully I don't know their success rate.,


So in the game industry do you personally know of guys who consider their success rate to be considerably better after a move into the city? It seems like it could be advantageous but it's hard to get a gauge of particularly _how much_ _more_ advantageous it is. It seems there needs to be a degree of success/opportunity before moving there, or at least a decent portfolio/catalogue, for film and TV anyway, unless one is able to stabilize oneself. Vancouver seems to be a growing location for production but I'm not sure by how much really (though it's not exactly any cheaper to live there).


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## gsilbers

Rohann said:


> So in the game industry do you personally know of guys who consider their success rate to be considerably better after a move into the city? It seems like it could be advantageous but it's hard to get a gauge of particularly _how much_ _more_ advantageous it is. It seems there needs to be a degree of success/opportunity before moving there, or at least a decent portfolio/catalogue, for film and TV anyway, unless one is able to stabilize oneself. Vancouver seems to be a growing location for production but I'm not sure by how much really (though it's not exactly any cheaper to live there).



not in the game industry. I do see follow those game composers as i love that hybrid style and have noticed many don't come from LA. I would ASSume this would be the same deal but in san Francisco on those GDC etc.
Meet those same people on other events around the globe.


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## Rohann

gsilbers said:


> not in the game industry. I do see follow those game composers as i love that hybrid style and have noticed many don't come from LA. I would ASSume this would be the same deal but in san Francisco on those GDC etc.
> Meet those same people on other events around the globe.


Makes sense. I just find it interesting to see the spread -- many of the "big names" do live in the PNW area or in California, but it seems to depend on whether or not they're doing much for TV or film as well. I know Jeremy Soule is also the creative director (I think?) of the Roland Cloud project and he seems to be doing it out of Seattle with some traveling. I wonder if moving to Japan is as viable an option, or if Japanese devs tend to favour Japanese composers. I know Bloodborne had a few American composers writing some tracks too, and it was recorded in London.
All very interesting! Thanks all for this insightful thread.


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## gsilbers

Rohann said:


> Makes sense. I just find it interesting to see the spread -- many of the "big names" do live in the PNW area or in California, but it seems to depend on whether or not they're doing much for TV or film as well. I know Jeremy Soule is also the creative director (I think?) of the Roland Cloud project and he seems to be doing it out of Seattle with some traveling. I wonder if moving to Japan is as viable an option, or if Japanese devs tend to favour Japanese composers. I know Bloodborne had a few American composers writing some tracks too, and it was recorded in London.
> All very interesting! Thanks all for this insightful thread.



Since a lot of working composers do live in LA for the film stuff and those video games want to have that same or similar sound, I think many do come from LA. but with so much info on the web/youtube, maybe this has changed.
I guess it all depends and there might not be a final result since its all based on anecdotal info.


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## Rohann

gsilbers said:


> Since a lot of working composers do live in LA for the film stuff and those video games want to have that same or similar sound, I think many do come from LA. but with so much info on the web/youtube, maybe this has changed.
> I guess it all depends and there might not be a final result since its all based on anecdotal info.


I wouldn't doubt that there are a decent amount in LA (I think Garry Schyman is in the area), certainly. It's hard to keep track of people too and figure out precisely where they live. What does seem somewhat clear though is that the game industry itself is certainly quite spread out, with many studios having primary studios well outside the LA area, though I could be in the dark about this too. GDC is hosted worldwide, for instance.


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## CT

Rohann said:


> I know Jeremy Soule is also the creative director (I think?) of the Roland Cloud project and he seems to be doing it out of Seattle with some traveling.



Jeremy also has a base of operations in L.A. though.


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## Rohann

miket said:


> Jeremy also has a base of operations in L.A. though.


Is that for the Roland Cloud development or his composing? I thought I remember him saying he did all of Skyrim's soundtrack out of his Seattle studio.

All in all the last thing I want to do is try and look for exceptions to the rule (LA seems to be it, unfortunately, for film and TV). Just trying to get a general idea about making reality and expectations meet, i.e. whether or not is is beneficial/advantageous/crucial/necessary to move to LA, or if it's more of a "I want to step up to work for a big company" type of move. Really a pity that so much of the industry is centered around such a beach-laden/perpetual-summer area  (no, I'm not joking).


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## charlieclouser

Thing is, if you just plain don't like LA, or think it's too expensive, or think it doesn't "feel like home", then moving here in hopes of establishing a career might have an unintended side effect: 

Any hardship that LA imposes upon you becomes the career's fault - the career, the "dream", is now to blame for the traffic, the expense, the hassle....

This effect might be subtle, but it can be insidious, creeping into your way of thinking, and your family's way of thinking. Affecting how you weigh options and make decisions - decisions that should be made without undue external influence. The trickle-down effect of this is not to be underestimated, and if you're bringing people along with you (wife, kids, etc.) and they're not as excited as you are, then everything becomes a trade-off.


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## CT

Rohann said:


> Is that for the Roland Cloud development or his composing? I thought I remember him saying he did all of Skyrim's soundtrack out of his Seattle studio.



Skyrim was a product of the Pacific Northwest, yeah, just pointing out that he seems to have felt the need to have a fully functional place near Hollywood too though. I suppose at a certain financial point, it becomes a matter of "why not at least have a place there?"


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## Rohann

miket said:


> Skyrim was a product of the Pacific Northwest, yeah, just pointing out that he seems to have felt the need to have a fully functional place near Hollywood too though. I suppose at a certain financial point, it becomes a matter of "why not at least have a place there?"


Oh completely agree. He's pretty top-tier in terms of success and demand in videogames, so in his shoes I'd most certainly do the same thing, especially considering the businesses he's invested in/owns. That seems like more of a _I want to expand_ vs _I'll never survive without that_ kind of situation which is the general impression I'm getting about the VG industry vs films. I.e. It can be advantageous to move there once you're established and already doing decently in the industry, vs. "I'll never get opportunities away from there".



charlieclouser said:


> Thing is, if you just plain don't like LA, or think it's too expensive, or think it doesn't "feel like home", then moving here in hopes of establishing a career might have an unintended side effect:
> 
> Any hardship that LA imposes upon you becomes the career's fault - the career, the "dream", is now to blame for the traffic, the expense, the hassle....
> 
> This effect might be subtle, but it can be insidious, creeping into your way of thinking, and your family's way of thinking. Affecting how you weigh options and make decisions - decisions that should be made without undue external influence. The trickle-down effect of this is not to be underestimated, and if you're bringing people along with you (wife, kids, etc.) and they're not as excited as you are, then everything becomes a trade-off.


Really great points, I'm sure these important psychological effects are often underestimated with these sorts of life decisions. I hope none of my speculating comes off as insulting to LA dwellers, but as a person of mountains, forests, and generally smaller cities, I'm more at home with bears getting into compost on the deck and snow causing a power outage than perpetual beach weather (this isn't really a small city either and happens in Vancouver with relative frequency).
Moving really isn't out of the question for me personally, but it's quite helpful to get feedback on a lot of this info pertaining to what and when is considered necessary vs beneficial, etc, as it's difficult to find simply browsing online. I think it would be especially discouraging for an aspiring composer to move to LA before really being ready and blowing savings on what they perceive to be a failed dream when in reality it was a problem of timing.

As an aside, this discussion reminds me of an Amon Tobin interview I saw a long while back where he talked about living in LA for a while (or at least the area), and he talked about "having lots of lunch, and being told I need to cut my teeth, though I still don't know what that means" after which I believe he moved to an industrial area in Montreal. I think he's still done recordings there from time to time but I found the effect of personality on these sorts of choices interesting.


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## charlieclouser

All good points. I didn't move to LA because I thought it would be good for opportunities, I just genuinely love the place. I grew up in fly-speck Pennsylvania and dirt-road Vermont, but I was a skateboarder and television junkie - and at seven years old all I wanted out of life was to live in the Brady Bunch house, with the floating-tread stairs and the step-down den! So I knew that as soon as I could I'd be headed west.

I've lived here three separate times, moving from Manhattan to LA, then back to Manhattan, then back to LA, then to New Orleans, then back to LA.... and every time I get off the plane at LAX or come over that hill on the westbound 10 freeway when you finally see the metropolis off in the sunset - it just feels like.... home.

One weird thing that lots of people don't notice is the effect that the climate has on your sense of time. Back in Vermont, every autumn you'd take off the window screens and replace them with the storm windows, put away the summer clothes and break out the snow pants, etc. This annual process creates a very real sense that time is passing - but in LA no such annual "markers" really exist. I think this is why there's a prevalence of the "perpetual youth" culture, whether it's 50-something Real Housewives going clubbing with their daughters, or surfing lawyers.

That seems to be part of why the entertainment industry is so heavily concentrated out here - it's by nature an industry full of, and driven by, youthful enthusiasm and optimism. Perhaps at times it's sad, clueless optimism - I mean, who can seriously imagine that a meaningful, successful career as a screenwriter or film composer would even be possible? As the folks back in fly-speck, with the steady, predictable, safe lives, shake their heads at your exuberant plans to move to LA and rise to the top of the pile, who can blame them for having their doubts?

But I don't think that this culture of optimism and endless enthusiasm could exist anywhere that wasn't, at least on the surface, "paradise". The perfect weather, the lack of any real changing of the seasons, the freaking palm trees - they all conspire to create a sense that every day is a bright and sunny morning, perfect for going out there and grabbing life by the balls. 

LA is weird. But I love it.


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## JohnBMears




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## Daniel James

InLight-Tone said:


> I don't want to speak for DJ but it seems if you watch his videos it appears that he built his career in the beginning working mostly remotely...



While true I built the foundation of my career in the UK. I now feel that being in LA I am ready to jump at any opportunity that comes my way and be able to put in the required facetime without the worry of if Skype will be enough.

-DJ

(p.s My heart will always belong to England though xD)


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## goalie composer

charlieclouser said:


> All good points. I didn't move to LA because I thought it would be good for opportunities, I just genuinely love the place. I grew up in fly-speck Pennsylvania and dirt-road Vermont, but I was a skateboarder and television junkie - and at seven years old all I wanted out of life was to live in the Brady Bunch house, with the floating-tread stairs and the step-down den! So I knew that as soon as I could I'd be headed west.
> 
> I've lived here three separate times, moving from Manhattan to LA, then back to Manhattan, then back to LA, then to New Orleans, then back to LA.... and every time I get off the plane at LAX or come over that hill on the westbound 10 freeway when you finally see the metropolis off in the sunset - it just feels like.... home.
> 
> One weird thing that lots of people don't notice is the effect that the climate has on your sense of time. Back in Vermont, every autumn you'd take off the window screens and replace them with the storm windows, put away the summer clothes and break out the snow pants, etc. This annual process creates a very real sense that time is passing - but in LA no such annual "markers" really exist. I think this is why there's a prevalence of the "perpetual youth" culture, whether it's 50-something Real Housewives going clubbing with their daughters, or surfing lawyers.
> 
> That seems to be part of why the entertainment industry is so heavily concentrated out here - it's by nature an industry full of, and driven by, youthful enthusiasm and optimism. Perhaps at times it's sad, clueless optimism - I mean, who can seriously imagine that a meaningful, successful career as a screenwriter or film composer would even be possible? As the folks back in fly-speck, with the steady, predictable, safe lives, shake their heads at your exuberant plans to move to LA and rise to the top of the pile, who can blame them for having their doubts?
> 
> But I don't think that this culture of optimism and endless enthusiasm could exist anywhere that wasn't, at least on the surface, "paradise". The perfect weather, the lack of any real changing of the seasons, the freaking palm trees - they all conspire to create a sense that every day is a bright and sunny morning, perfect for going out there and grabbing life by the balls.
> 
> LA is weird. But I love it.



That's a great post, Charlie! Well stated


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## AlexRuger

charlieclouser said:


> One weird thing that lots of people don't notice is the effect that the climate has on your sense of time. Back in Vermont, every autumn you'd take off the window screens and replace them with the storm windows, put away the summer clothes and break out the snow pants, etc. This annual process creates a very real sense that time is passing - but in LA no such annual "markers" really exist.



I've been here for four years and I'm still not used to this. I've said almost this exact thing, verbatim, to loads of other people (especially the "markers" bit), but it's hard to understand just how profound an effect it has on you. It's disorienting.

Like, I just said I've been here for four years but it doesn't feel like it. It doesn't feel like any other amount, either. It's like I've always been here and will always be here. 

I feel the same as you about LA--I'm from Indiana, so I can totally empathize with wanting to get the _fuck _out--but the weather nearly always being the same is easily my least-favorite part.

But I can surf every day, so I'd say that's a fair trade-off.


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## Rohann

charlieclouser said:


> All good points. I didn't move to LA because I thought it would be good for opportunities, I just genuinely love the place. I grew up in fly-speck Pennsylvania and dirt-road Vermont, but I was a skateboarder and television junkie - and at seven years old all I wanted out of life was to live in the Brady Bunch house, with the floating-tread stairs and the step-down den! So I knew that as soon as I could I'd be headed west.
> 
> I've lived here three separate times, moving from Manhattan to LA, then back to Manhattan, then back to LA, then to New Orleans, then back to LA.... and every time I get off the plane at LAX or come over that hill on the westbound 10 freeway when you finally see the metropolis off in the sunset - it just feels like.... home.
> 
> One weird thing that lots of people don't notice is the effect that the climate has on your sense of time. Back in Vermont, every autumn you'd take off the window screens and replace them with the storm windows, put away the summer clothes and break out the snow pants, etc. This annual process creates a very real sense that time is passing - but in LA no such annual "markers" really exist. I think this is why there's a prevalence of the "perpetual youth" culture, whether it's 50-something Real Housewives going clubbing with their daughters, or surfing lawyers.
> 
> That seems to be part of why the entertainment industry is so heavily concentrated out here - it's by nature an industry full of, and driven by, youthful enthusiasm and optimism. Perhaps at times it's sad, clueless optimism - I mean, who can seriously imagine that a meaningful, successful career as a screenwriter or film composer would even be possible? As the folks back in fly-speck, with the steady, predictable, safe lives, shake their heads at your exuberant plans to move to LA and rise to the top of the pile, who can blame them for having their doubts?
> 
> But I don't think that this culture of optimism and endless enthusiasm could exist anywhere that wasn't, at least on the surface, "paradise". The perfect weather, the lack of any real changing of the seasons, the freaking palm trees - they all conspire to create a sense that every day is a bright and sunny morning, perfect for going out there and grabbing life by the balls.
> 
> LA is weird. But I love it.


It's a wonderful coincidence that it seems like _the_ place to be for professional work in music as well!

I suppose I'm envious in a way -- while I'm certainly open to any opportunity that arises, my sense of permanent residence (in terms of what feels like home to me) is much more in the semi-remote and cold (unfortunately away from the sprawling opportunity down south). Really good point about seasons too -- while where I currently live has years here and there with seasons consisting of "hot and dry" for 4 months and then "grey and mild" the other 8, I'm quite used to seasons. The thought of missing that would feel distressing. I also find the natural changes and seasons here incredibly inspiring, and away from that I find it difficult to feel creatively inspired.

That said, I think the inspiration one can find in a place beaming with enthusiasm, creative energy, and like-mindedness shouldn't be understated, and I'm sure it's more inspiring than the "why don't you get a real job" looks one gets from "normal people". I can't help but wish some of those opportunistic places looked more like Montreal, Helsinki, or Copenhagen though . It's encouraging at least to see arts and entertainment growing here, but whether it will do so significantly is hard to predict.


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## charlieclouser

Rohann said:


> That said, I think the inspiration one can find in a place beaming with enthusiasm, creative energy, and like-mindedness shouldn't be understated, and I'm sure it's more inspiring than the "why don't you get a real job" looks one gets from "normal people".



Very true. Nobody will look sideways at you in LA if you tell them you're out to compose the score for a film, or edit a tv series, or create the title sequence for a video game. The optimism of the "jet age" is still alive and well out here.


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## jononotbono

charlieclouser said:


> But I don't think that this culture of optimism and endless enthusiasm could exist anywhere that wasn't, at least on the surface, "paradise". The perfect weather, the lack of any real changing of the seasons, the freaking palm trees - they all conspire to create a sense that every day is a bright and sunny morning, perfect for going out there and grabbing life by the balls.
> 
> LA is weird. But I love it.



Sounds perfect!


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## charlieclouser

When I graduated from college I went straight to NYC (for 8 years), and when you're 21 years old, you're so excited to finally hit the big city that you don't mind the fifth-floor walkup, the piss in the doorway, buying weed from sketchy Dominicans, etc. The grunge is a part of the allure, in a weird way, but what I never really clocked until I got out of there was the downtrodden shlubbiness that is part and parcel to life in NYC - the business women on the subway wearing sharp outfits but with comfy running shoes on their feet while their nice pumps are in their bag, the George Costanza-esqe guys in the oversized parkas with that Woody Allen style London Fog hat with the big brim that will keep the rain off your neck, carrying an overstuffed shoulder bag, *and* a plastic bag from Duane Reade, *and* a plastic bag with Chinese takeout, *and* a newspaper, *and* a $10 umbrella that will last two days, etc. That shlub factor creeps into your bones after a while, and you can't escape it. I lived in some pretty nice spots (and some shitty ones too!), but George Constanza and the sneaker women are absolutely everywhere. Fair enough, but still.....

When I first came to LA and was staying with an old college friend, sleeping with the windows wide open, the smell of that night-blooming Jasmine, or Jacaranda, or whatever the hell that awesome fragrance is up in Beachwood Canyon, I was like.... yeah. This could work. No shlub factor here. There's trashiness, sure, but it's easier to avoid than lots of places.

I do kind of miss the 24-hour bodegas that are never more than two blocks from wherever you are in NYC though - some fresh-cut pineapple and a bacon-egg-cheese-bagel at four am is heaven!

LA is definitely *not* a 24-hour town, and since I'm a late night type of guy, this still bugs me. But I'll live.


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## samphony

charlieclouser said:


> All good points. I didn't move to LA because I thought it would be good for opportunities, I just genuinely love the place. I grew up in fly-speck Pennsylvania and dirt-road Vermont, but I was a skateboarder and television junkie - and at seven years old all I wanted out of life was to live in the Brady Bunch house, with the floating-tread stairs and the step-down den! So I knew that as soon as I could I'd be headed west.
> 
> I've lived here three separate times, moving from Manhattan to LA, then back to Manhattan, then back to LA, then to New Orleans, then back to LA.... and every time I get off the plane at LAX or come over that hill on the westbound 10 freeway when you finally see the metropolis off in the sunset - it just feels like.... home.
> 
> One weird thing that lots of people don't notice is the effect that the climate has on your sense of time. Back in Vermont, every autumn you'd take off the window screens and replace them with the storm windows, put away the summer clothes and break out the snow pants, etc. This annual process creates a very real sense that time is passing - but in LA no such annual "markers" really exist. I think this is why there's a prevalence of the "perpetual youth" culture, whether it's 50-something Real Housewives going clubbing with their daughters, or surfing lawyers.
> 
> That seems to be part of why the entertainment industry is so heavily concentrated out here - it's by nature an industry full of, and driven by, youthful enthusiasm and optimism. Perhaps at times it's sad, clueless optimism - I mean, who can seriously imagine that a meaningful, successful career as a screenwriter or film composer would even be possible? As the folks back in fly-speck, with the steady, predictable, safe lives, shake their heads at your exuberant plans to move to LA and rise to the top of the pile, who can blame them for having their doubts?
> 
> But I don't think that this culture of optimism and endless enthusiasm could exist anywhere that wasn't, at least on the surface, "paradise". The perfect weather, the lack of any real changing of the seasons, the freaking palm trees - they all conspire to create a sense that every day is a bright and sunny morning, perfect for going out there and grabbing life by the balls.
> 
> LA is weird. But I love it.


Well put Charlie!


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## Parsifal666

Creston said:


> Just need a sponsor.



You're not alone. I have plenty of smaller scale patrons, but precious few big money volk. Even if I had that kind of patron I wouldn't live in L.A., mostly for the very lack of actual seasons and sameness. I'll stay here in New England, partly _because_ I'm inspired by the seasons. Plus, I seriously doubt, particularly with my recent, extensive endeavors into the avante-garde and non-movie/trailer work, I'd get very far anyway.

I'm not entirely sure I want to, anyway. I love my life here, and have learned and written a ton being here. I don't want that to end, it's too good to me here.

To me L.A. is more a place I'd have to be compensated to visit, with sure prospects ahead of making super bucks. And if that never happens, then I can't really lose anyway, right? I'll just keep occasionally being commissioned by these independent people and live in an area I love with a person I love more than life itself.


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## Ashermusic

charlieclouser said:


> I've lived here three separate times, moving from Manhattan to LA, then back to Manhattan, then back to LA, then to New Orleans, then back to LA.... and every time I get off the plane at LAX or come over that hill on the westbound 10 freeway when you finally see the metropolis off in the sunset - it just feels like.... home.



Interesting Charlie, I am just the opposite. I have lived here since 1972 but every time I go back to Boston, within a day I feel more at home than I have ever felt here. Hell, you have heard me, I still speak with a Boston accent 

Oh and btw, Go Celtics !!!!!!


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## JohnG

Parsifal666 said:


> I love my life here, and have learned and written a ton being here. I don't want that to end, it's too good to me here.
> 
> .... live in an area I love with a person I love more than life itself.



So, you have it made, Parsifal. I agree -- why would you change anything?


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## Byron

Rohann said:


> True. This can be a tough cycle to break. It tends to come with sacrifices one way or another -- sometimes it means living more modestly and working fewer hours in order to be able to pursue what you want.



And it may also mean eliminating elements in your life that are holding you back from truly getting to your goals. That's a harsh reality of all of this, but one that may be necessary if you truly passionate about this and are not getting where you want to be.


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## Rohann

charlieclouser said:


> Very true. Nobody will look sideways at you in LA if you tell them you're out to compose the score for a film, or edit a tv series, or create the title sequence for a video game. The optimism of the "jet age" is still alive and well out here.


Haha that's relieving at least. Most of the PNW at least has a pretty solid artistic community for the size and some post-production facilities in Vancouver so it's not quite the kind of uptight "working-man/businessman" kind of place I'd move out of in a heartbeat, but being connected to the right crowd is a pretty big deal.



Byron said:


> And it may also mean eliminating elements in your life that are holding you back from truly getting to your goals. That's a harsh reality of all of this, but one that may be necessary if you truly passionate about this and are not getting where you want to be.


Absolutely. I think it's important to soberly examine what your goals are but also _why _they are what they are -- over time I've realized more that what success means for me, at least now, has more to do with being involved in projects I find meaningful and inspiring, if sparse, and maintaining a significant sense of creative freedom. I never wanted to compromise that for the sake of "making it" in the financial sense, though I certainly hope the two coincide.


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## Parsifal666

Rohann said:


> I never wanted to compromise that for the sake of "making it" in the financial sense, though I certainly hope the two coincide.



Not to presume to speak for others, but I'd bet quite a few members here feel that way too. I know I do...however, I've found it benefits me to always expect less. That way, when something good comes my way, it's like a holiday; conversely, if things remain the mediocre (or worse), that's okay because I expected less anyway.

I think...when I see how I got my life together in the past fifteen years with my significant other, I simply resigned myself to loving what I have. I get to be with my s.o., write up to sixteen hours on days off, listen to whatever I want, talk with some very nice people here.

L.A.? Well, to quote DeNiro: *"PAY ME!" *


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## Rohann

Parsifal666 said:


> Not to presume to speak for others, but I'd bet quite a few members here feel that way too. I know I do...however, I've found it benefits me to always expect less. That way, when something good comes my way, it's like a holiday; conversely, if things remain the mediocre (or worse), that's okay because I expected less anyway.
> 
> I think...when I see how I got my life together in the past fifteen years with my significant other, I simply resigned myself to loving what I have. I get to be with my s.o., write up to sixteen hours on days off, listen to whatever I want, talk with some very nice people here.
> 
> L.A.? Well, to quote DeNiro: *"PAY ME!" *


Oh I'm sure that's true, I don't want to sound like an elitist. Some people, though, feel they're able to do that with trailer music, or bombastic blockbuster scores, or scores for cleaning commercials and sitcoms, which is great. For some people, the dream happens to include living in LA, rather than just moving there for opportunity. While I again would hesitate to say I'd pass up opportunity, many of these formats are simply not what I'm passionate about, currently anyway, and an area like LA least of all. I'd move to Cophenhagen or Bergen or Montreal in a heartbeat, but a move to LA would be purely a means to an end, not a joy in itself. If I have to travel a lot as a compromise, I'm fine with that, but for now, I just want to get really good at composing/producing/arranging, and see what happens after that.


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## Parsifal666

Rohann said:


> While I again would hesitate to say I'd pass up opportunity, many of these formats are simply not what I'm passionate about, currently anyway, and an area like LA least of all. I'd move to Cophenhagen or Bergen or Montreal in a heartbeat, but a move to LA would be purely a means to an end, not a joy in itself. If I have to travel a lot as a compromise, I'm fine with that, but for now, I just want to get really good at composing/producing/arranging, and see what happens after that.



Sounds to me like you have a winning plan.


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## Rohann

Parsifal666 said:


> Sounds to me like you have a winning plan.


Haha well it's pretty foolproof so far. #1 is really the hard part. #2 I'm not sure about yet.
1. Don't suck at composing
2. ???
3. Profit


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## pranitkhedekar

Daniel James said:


> "I'd rather live a few years as others wont, so I can live the rest of my life as others can't"


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## zolhof

I love this JH interview, in the first 3 or 4 minutes he talks about living in LA, or "up in those hills, in a dirt road" at least. Miss him!


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## Rohann

I wonder if part of the "being there" for film being such an essential part of the process is the fact that most often you're writing to specific cues. While being remote doesn't seem ideal for videogames, I wonder if the fact that one is often writing songs for areas, characters, or situations, means the actual writing process ends up being somewhat different (at least for a less cinematically intensive game).


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## SillyMidOn

Rohann said:


> Haha well it's pretty foolproof so far. #1 is really the hard part. #2 I'm not sure about yet.
> 1. Don't suck at composing
> 2. ???
> 3. Profit


This sounds familiar:


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## Voider

A completely different and maybe not too serious question,
but isn't anyone (who moved in or is planning to do so from outer usa) afraid of the fact that anyone can carry a gun over there? That's just unthinkable here in germany. Only LA alone has more murder victims in the past 12 months than my whole country, which may be caused largely by the gang problem.


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## Rohann

Voider said:


> A completely different and maybe not too serious question,
> but isn't anyone (who moved in or is planning to do so from outer usa) afraid of the fact that anyone can carry a gun over there? That's just unthinkable here in germany. Only LA alone has more murder victims in the past 12 months than my whole country.


Ah, stats. I studied rather arduous statistical methodology in university (especially human research) so I'll try and be brief/avoid lingo, but a few thoughts (and hoping to avoid utterly derailing this thread).
1. The US is an anomaly when it comes to firearm violence. There are numerous other places worldwide where firearm ownership is high with crime being proportionately very low by comparison. It's most definitely an issue in the US, but if anyone tells you firearm ownership is the sole reason for it, they don't understand the data. For the record, not anyone can "carry a gun" in LA, or in the US in general; laws change drastically by state. In fact, dense urban areas have fairly strict laws that make owning _any_ firearms difficult (legally), but this doesn't seem to prevent violence in an overly meaningful way (i.e. Detroit, LA, etc).
2. Murder victims: The problem with "stats" like this is that there's no specification as to "who/where/what/why" -- there are major crime issues in LA arising from gang violence, and the vast majority of these incidences of violent crime tend to be gang related. While it's certainly not the safest of cities, it's not _Deathwish_, and being familiar with the area makes a massive difference.
3. Germany, by comparison, has a much narrower economic disparity than a place like LA. LA areas range from Santa Monica/Hollywood Hills (please correct me if I'm wrong here, my knowledge of LA is limited) to Compton and Skid Row, with vastly different crime rates by area. You have some of the richest and poorest people in the US living _relatively_ close to one another. Western Europe, by comparison, is far narrower, and organized "blue-collar" crime being virtually nonexistent in many countries. Crime varies significantly by area, just like with many big cities.

But then again, I'm not from LA, so maybe someone who's from there can offer a perspective that's more than just speculative. That was probably also a far too serious answer for a probably not-so-serious-question.


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## charlieclouser

Voider said:


> A completely different and maybe not too serious question,
> but isn't anyone (who moved in or is planning to do so from outer usa) afraid of the fact that anyone can carry a gun over there? That's just unthinkable here in germany. Only LA alone has more murder victims in the past 12 months than my whole country, which may be caused largely by the gang problem.



I've never been worried about gun violence in LA - or NYC, or anywhere else that I've lived in the USA for that matter, and I've lived in some shitholes. In 53 years I've only seen someone holding a pistol on the streets twice - both in 1986 in NYC. One was a cop busting a guy in Times Square, and the other was a drug dealer in Brooklyn who was in the process of robbing me.

Los Angeles is a *big* city in terms of sheer area - if you're in the wrong neighborhood in LA, you took a wrong turn about half an hour ago and kept driving in the wrong direction for miles. In New Orleans you could go four blocks and see the transition from stately mansions to destroyed public housing, so the likelihood that the liquor store you stopped at today just got robbed yesterday is much higher in a city like that.

Santa Monica, Hollywood, Burbank, basically anywhere you're likely to be is fine. If you want to go and buy some kilos of coke way the hell down in the hood you might be able to get yourself into danger if you try, but you won't accidentally make a wrong turn and wind up in the middle of a shootout.

In short - I'd be more afraid of being eaten by a coyote in my driveway, or getting glassed in a pub in Brixton, than I would be afraid of getting shot in LA.


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## jonathanparham

charlieclouser said:


> I In New Orleans you could go four blocks and see the transition from stately mansions to destroyed public housing, so the likelihood that the liquor store you stopped at today just got robbed yesterday is much higher in a city like that.



Hey Hey lay off the other LA lol. NYC and New Orleans are similar in that regard. Blocks of wealth and Blocks of poverty for varying reasons of course


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## jononotbono

charlieclouser said:


> or getting glassed in a pub in Brixton



Haha! Perfect depiction of The Professional English Binge Drinking Gentleman!


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## charlieclouser

jononotbono said:


> Haha! Perfect depiction of The Professional English Binge Drinking Gentleman!



Down at the Cock-N-Balls pub!


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## SterlingArcher

charlieclouser said:


> Down at the Cock-N-Balls pub!


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## JaikumarS

Thank you for the thread.
The composers who moved recently to LA may I know how did you get the Film scoring gig? Networking by attending party's and NAMM etc, is this the only option? 
Sending emails to production houses does it work?


Thank you
-JS


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## Kent

I got to LA via NYC. Met people there that helped me here!


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## givemenoughrope

charlieclouser said:


> I'd be more afraid of being eaten by a coyote in my driveway, or getting glassed in a pub in Brixton, than I would be afraid of getting shot in LA.



And even if you do it might not be a significant bullet:


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## gsilbers

JaikumarS said:


> Thank you for the thread.
> The composers who moved recently to LA may I know how did you get the Film scoring gig? Networking by attending party's and NAMM etc, is this the only option?
> Sending emails to production houses does it work?
> 
> 
> Thank you
> -JS



dont go to parties or namm where there are other composers. go to parties where there are filmakers and actors. everyone here is doing their own little project. help them out.


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## gsilbers

Voider said:


> A completely different and maybe not too serious question,
> but isn't anyone (who moved in or is planning to do so from outer usa) afraid of the fact that anyone can carry a gun over there? That's just unthinkable here in germany. Only LA alone has more murder victims in the past 12 months than my whole country, which may be caused largely by the gang problem.



nah, its soooo spread out and the areas w gun violence are very marked so not many worries. 

i mean, LA is really big. its about 23 million poeple. over here we call it suthern california (and sand diego). the city just keeps going and going. its tons of cities stiched together within two or three counties. the most populous along w NYC there are no tall buildings ecept downtown. so there is gun violence but its very rare. 
we are more worried about getting in aa car accident with an undocumented immigrant with no insurance. ;/
OR getting in traffic w/o goign to the bathrom. traffic is hell over here. like really really bad.


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## gsilbers

KerrySmith said:


> I was in NYC doing this work for 18 years, and have been in a smaller city (Portland) for the last 7. I do... well enough here, but every time I go to LA, I do come home with some work, but people opine "I wish you were here. We could do so much more." So I've had enough of that "smaller city" idea and will probably uproot the family and head down this summer.



watch out with housing prices. for those who haven checked recently, its very very bad. ita bout $1300 for a room in a 2 bedroom aprt. or $3500+ for a 1 bedroom around santa monica. Try getting a sublet which has rent control. 
this new thing called "silicon beach" has offset housing prices in the west side to the point of ridicule. 
yes, there are gigs but getting a gigs where you have to pay soooo much in housing and other things its crazy. maybe it pays well, but if its a freelance gig where money has to pay also for those days without a gigs.. then it gets a little uncomfortable.


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## givemenoughrope

gsilbers said:


> we are more worried about getting in aa car accident with an undocumented immigrant with no insurance. ;/



That does happen and it happened to a friend of mine. His truck was totaled and it ended up like a chase out of the French Connection. He somehow managed to get money out of them and also not involve the police (which would have screwed them royally).

It's mostly just getting into an accident with ANYONE Bc there is a very good chance they will just drive away, especially in multi car collisions. I drove by a hit and run in Echo Park last night even. Anyone without a license plate (a high percentage of leased cars) is likely to get away completely. LA admits to being backlogged with about 50,000 hit and runs a year that they will never investigate. Unless you die or are connected, they won't bother. LAWeekly did a story on a well-known cyclist who was hit and left for dead on Glendale Blvd (where it crosses under Sunset). The police did nothing. He got most of the license plate and had a friend at the DMV but that got him nowhere. He did remember the make and model and cleverly called Jaguar dealerships and asked if his car was ready and figured out the guy's info. Dude was a wealthy lobbyist who lives in the Silver Lake hills, pled guilty and got community service. I wouldn't have involved the police ;l

In general, there is no symbiotic relationship between cars, bikes, or pedestrians at all. It's not like an East coast city that can work like clockwork. Driving is zombieland and basically babysitting. Just don't get hit. Each area has different levels of aggressive or attentive...ranking from Westwood to Koreatown. When I'm driving on the Westside a Nino Rota march is the only music that makes sense to me...bc it's just ridiculous.




gsilbers said:


> traffic is hell over here. like really really bad.



It's the only time I really get to listen to music or can justify calling home without feeling like it's a waste of time. So, I don't mind it.


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## Desire Inspires

givemenoughrope said:


> That does happen and it happened to a friend of mine. His truck was totaled and it ended up like a chase out of the French Connection. He somehow managed to get money out of them and also not involve the police (which would have screwed them royally).
> 
> It's mostly just getting into an accident with ANYONE Bc there is a very good chance they will just drive away, especially in multi car collisions. I drove by a hit and run in Echo Park last night even. Anyone without a license plate (a high percentage of leased cars) is likely to get away completely. LA admits to being backlogged with about 50,000 hit and runs a year that they will never investigate. Unless you die or are connected, they won't bother. LAWeekly did a story on a well-known cyclist who was hit and left for dead on Glendale Blvd (where it crosses under Sunset). The police did nothing. He got most of the license plate and had a friend at the DMV but that got him nowhere. He did remember the make and model and cleverly called Jaguar dealerships and asked if his car was ready and figured out the guy's info. Dude was a wealthy lobbyist who lives in the Silver Lake hills, pled guilty and got community service. I wouldn't have involved the police ;l
> 
> In general, there is no symbiotic relationship between cars, bikes, or pedestrians at all. It's not like an East coast city that can work like clockwork. Driving is zombieland and basically babysitting. Just don't get hit. Each area has different levels of aggressive or attentive...ranking from Westwood to Koreatown. When I'm driving on the Westside a Nino Rota march is the only music that makes sense to me...bc it's just ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's the only time I really get to listen to music or can justify calling home without feeling like it's a waste of time. So, I don't mind it.



Damn, that sounds just as bad as Miami.

I bought a car a few years ago. A few hours after driving off the lot, some jerk rear ends me, backs up, makes a U turn, and then takes off! 

Thankfully it wasn’t bad and just dented the bumper. Probably some illegal, somebody with no insurance or license, somebody with a warrant (possibly all of the above!) who didn’t feel like being bothered with what happened to me.

I always hear about hit and runs in Broward County. Some dude ran over a child and killed him and just took off. So cruel and disgusting. Mother***** in South Florida are the worst!


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## givemenoughrope

I wouldn't get too down on "illegals" (hate that word) since they make our economy function (and California's economy is obv integral to the country and the world). My great-grandfather was "born on the way over" too (i.e. lied on the census). At least they have sone reason to split. Anyone else is just an a-hole.

Anyway, the worst things that will happen to you in SoCal are all car related: traffic, accident, car theft (leave some trash in it so it doesn't look worth the trouble), parking tickets (pay them right away or they'll double and eventually they'll "cut your legs off"), boredom (music) and back pain. But honestly, just do rush hour in Moscow or any city in Southeast Asia and you won't complain anymore. And take Fountain or Willoughby.


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