# Troubles composing original orchestral/cinematic music



## justabeginner (Sep 18, 2021)

After playing around with orchestral VSTs for about a year, I am now pretty confident when it comes to transcribing other people's work and think I can obtain decent results (for my level of skill, at least) when it comes to orchestral/cinematic music. However, when I try to compose something original I find myself stuck with these problems:
1) no idea where to start, so I try jotting down ideas on a piano VST - however I'm not a piano player so I find myself limited by my technical skills and find myself running in circles around the same old ideas;
2) I finally land on something good (let's say 4 bars with some piano chords/melody) and start building up on it by looping it, but then I can't find a way to "break out" of the loop
3) I land on something good, manage to break from the loop but then it feels like I always go in the same direction as other things I composed before (in a very obvious way)/I end up "composing" something that has been composed before.

Sorry if this post sounds a bit like a rant, what I'm after is simply some advice as how to approach songwriting for orchestral music, in particular how to start and how to develop ideas (I have some experience and slightly more "success" with rock/guitar-centric music, but have struggled with those things there too). I appreciate everyone has their own style and methods, but I hope to learn something from people who have more experience and success than me!

Thanks in advance for reading this little rant and for any help!


----------



## Hadrondrift (Sep 18, 2021)

Looping and very frequent repetition is not even bad if you try to vary each repetition. Vary tempo, orchestration, instrument, pitch, harmony, ... Listen to this example of The Batman Theme (D. Elfman). I can hear the theme, which consists of only 5 notes, about 36 times in 2:38 minutes.




There isn't complex modulation or many melodic ideas. Why doesn't it sound boring? Because of the insane amount of variation of this one short theme. It is layered and interwoven and reproduced by a wide variety of instrumental groups, only rarely is it slightly varied in itself. So, maybe, if you can't break out of a loop sometimes, just be creative by varying it in all possible ways.


----------



## LamaRose (Sep 18, 2021)

Not saying that he's 4-chords and done by any stretch, but you can learn a lot from Max Richter.


----------



## Dirtgrain (Sep 18, 2021)

Become a student of song and orchestral-music structure. Listen mindfully, trying to learn what is going on.


----------



## mikrokosmiko (Sep 18, 2021)

There’s this technique that I use sometimes when trying to break out of a loop: inversion. For example, if the loop is, say, Am-C-Dm-G, and think of it as I-III-IV-VII; I try I-VI-V-II, so, Am-F-E(m)-B(m). Sometimes it works, sometimes it does not, but it helps me to find possibilities that I would not have though of if working only with the ear.


----------



## JCarlsen (Sep 27, 2021)

It was of benefit to me to set a goal for what I wanted to end up with. Then I set up a structure like say AABA and I write down what each part contains. Is the track growing, what instruments are playing, how do I want to voice chords early in the song and with what intensity. Maybe I switch from major to minor in the B section. Like you my piano skills aren't up to par yet so I focus on voicing them well.

I know it's a cliché but pro composers tend to explain it like you are telling a story. And a good story needs an arc. If you don't plan out the arc in advance you are creating without direction and that at least did not work for me. Try writing a short story arc, imagine what each part of the arc sounds like and go from there. Just an idea but see if it works for you. Here's what the classic Hollywood story arc looks like


----------



## Argy Ottas (Sep 27, 2021)

Hadrondrift said:


> Looping and very frequent repetition is not even bad if you try to vary each repetition. Vary tempo, orchestration, instrument, pitch, harmony, ... Listen to this example of The Batman Theme (D. Elfman). I can hear the theme, which consists of only 5 notes, about 36 times in 2:38 minutes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OOOH... Nostalgia strikes...


----------



## wst3 (Sep 27, 2021)

I truly wish I knew from whence musical ideas spring! In fact every time I start a project, for someone else or just for me, I am absolutely certain that I have used my allotment of musical ideas. I expect to fall flat on my face.

Now that has not yet happened. And that's a mystery.

TL;DR - you are not alone, not by a long shot. And I do not think anyone has the answer. And do not think everyone has to follow the same process. It is an adventure. A scary adventure at times, but still, an adventure.

The rest...

I write primarily for live theatre (a set of challenges all it's own<G>). So my approach may not work for everyone, but here goes:

I read the script. If I am working with a production team we will get together and discuss the script, and plot out at least some of the points along the arc. Some folks on the team are less concerned than others, but the arc does affect every aspect of the production design.

If I am working with just a director I will sit down with them - it is their vision, and this works pretty well. About the only time it doesn't work is when there is dance involved. Gotta invite the choreographer!

I also like to work with motifs - small snippets for each character, the treatment of the snippet will vary depending on where we are in the story, and sometimes a character needs a couple of snippets.

It is important to note that at this point I am still identifying the music I will need. Most of the time I have no idea what it sounds like yet.

After completing the mechanical aspects I just sit down and play, I think about the script, visualize it if I can, I think about the structure, and there, out of nowhere, I stumble across the first musical idea. It may not be a good idea, but at least the process has started. This tends to bolster my attitude, or at least tamp down on the imposter thing.

From there it becomes part inspiration, part craft. How you balance that is, I think up to the individual.


----------



## marclawsonmusic (Sep 27, 2021)

@ryanleachmusic just posted a video that might be helpful with this:






How to extend 8 bar melodies into longer themes


Hi everybody, I posted a new video today about how to take an 8 bar melody and expand it into something longer. I came up with the acronym REPS which stands for Repeat, Extend, Pause, and Study. Repeat - Take existing material and say it again. This works effectively in the beginning of a...




vi-control.net





I can also heartily recommend Norman Ludwin - his courses or private study. He has been very helpful to me over the past few years. This book in particular addresses some of the questions you raised:






Composition: A New Approach - Composer's Handbook - Exercisies in Orchestration and Development


Unofficial Notice of release Norman Ludwin sent me a copy of his new book titled "Composition: A New Approach - Composer's Handbook - Exercisies in Orchestration and Development" that is packed full of examples and ideas to kickstart the compositional process. As he states in the beginning...




vi-control.net


----------



## justabeginner (Sep 28, 2021)

Thanks everyone for all the great advice and resources you have posted! I definitely feel more inspired and less alone when it comes to the challenge of writing good music!

Hopefully I'll be able to translate all the advice in some nice music soon


----------



## Pier (Sep 28, 2021)

justabeginner said:


> 1) no idea where to start, so I try jotting down ideas on a piano VST - however I'm not a piano player so I find myself limited by my technical skills and find myself running in circles around the same old ideas;


I know exactly what you mean.

Personally, the thing that had the most impact in finding new musical ideas for me was simply becoming better at the piano.

You don't need to become a concert pianist, but take some classes or follow a method to develop some dexterity at the piano. This will allow you to improvise and find new stuff.


----------



## nolotrippen (Sep 28, 2021)

justabeginner said:


> After playing around with orchestral VSTs for about a year, I am now pretty confident when it comes to transcribing other people's work and think I can obtain decent results (for my level of skill, at least) when it comes to orchestral/cinematic music. However, when I try to compose something original I find myself stuck with these problems:
> 1) no idea where to start, so I try jotting down ideas on a piano VST - however I'm not a piano player so I find myself limited by my technical skills and find myself running in circles around the same old ideas;
> 2) I finally land on something good (let's say 4 bars with some piano chords/melody) and start building up on it by looping it, but then I can't find a way to "break out" of the loop
> 3) I land on something good, manage to break from the loop but then it feels like I always go in the same direction as other things I composed before (in a very obvious way)/I end up "composing" something that has been composed before.
> ...


My first comp teacher used Michelle Legrand's Windmills of Your Mind to show how much could be done with how few notes:


----------

