# Octatonic Scales



## wbacer (Mar 18, 2017)

I realize that there are only three different octatonic scales before they start repeating.
I usually think of them from a half / whole perspective as opposed to whole / half although either perspective works.

I also know that composers throughout history have used them to create tension in their music and John Williams uses them a lot in his action cues. For example, I was transcribing “T-Rex Rescue & Finale” from Jurassic Park and found that at any given moment in the cue, his is pulling his bass lines, chords, ostinatos, stabs etc. from the same octatonic scale. At some point, he’ll modulate to a new octatonic scale but the underlying bass lines, chords, ostinatos, stabs etc. all then correspond to the new octatonic scale.

As you may know, Sonokinetic just released their latest phrase based library “Espressivo”. It appears that most of the phases in this library are built from octatonic scales. The way the interface is laid out, you can layer any woodwind, brass, percussion or string phrase with any other phrase. This allows a woodwind phrase from the C octatonic scale to be played simultaneously with a brass phrase from the C# octatonic scale and a string phrase from the D octatonic scale.

As you can see, one approach is to layer bass lines, chords, ostinatos, stabs etc. from the same octatonic scale. The other approach is to layer bass lines, chords, ostinatos, stabs etc. from different octatonic scales. My ear tells me that the second method is even more dissonant since the vertical notes are more chromatic. What method do use / have experience with?

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated, thanks.


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## jamwerks (Mar 18, 2017)

Yeah octatonic scales are quite interesting, and as you say JW uses them a lot (as well as other modes derived from melodic & harmonic minor scales). I study JW scores quite a bit and seems every piece uses a 2-3 modes in an interesting way.

Another example of the Octatonic scale is "The Forest battle", (JW) the first minute of music is 99% octatonic!

And you speak of using two different octatonic scales at the same time. That something Bela Bartok and Stravinsky did quite a bit.

Am spending this Saturday evening playing the piano, and and through the second half of "The Rite of Spring". There's lot's of Octatonic usage and thinking in there.


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## DocMidi657 (Mar 18, 2017)

Mike from Cinesamples does a nice quick demo using Octatonic scales here.


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## douggibson (Mar 18, 2017)

It would be a long drawn out answer to be complete about this, but all the mediant harmonic moves are octatonic "flavored". The Russian's had a interesting view on these scales as has been mentioned. What you mentioned is true, (whole half etc.) but that is just like a cliff note version of the scale. 

One thing I always found interesting was how "perfect" intervals can sound dark. Look, or rather listen, to spots that create tension and release. Make sure to sing the scale, you will feel the fake tonic resolution.

Voice leading can give a octatonic impression from just dyads


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## ed buller (Mar 18, 2017)

Stravinsky got his advanced use of octatonicism from Rimsky. He used it to great affect in the rite. Simply put the three scales and their modes allow a lot of chords and tonal centers to be used at once. The opening to part 2 is a case study. Rimsky's trick was to use the Octatonic scale starting on a minor tetrachord (T,S,T,S,T,S,T,S) as his "go to" melody scale ( he called it the "one" scale ). He would harmonise this with two notes ( to form a triad ) from the parallel mode. (S,T,S,T,S,T,S,T,). He called this (the other scale ).

Igor took this a stage further and used all three Octatonic scales and their modes.

Richard Taruskin's wonderful book "Stravinsky and the Russian Traditions" goes into this at some length .

Ron Goodwin's Take:


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## robharvey (Mar 21, 2017)

When I was at Uni, it was known as the diminished scale. The Jazzer's used to use it constantly over any harmonic minor progression that lands on the diminished. 

Fun fact about it though. If you play major arpeggios on each scale step they actually fit in the scale...


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## wbacer (Mar 21, 2017)

Thanks everyone for your feedback. The example from Mike at Cinesamples is all C octatonic but good example of what a piece derived from one octatonic scale sounds like. Good use of dyads.

I went back and re-listened to the Rite of Spring, excellent example of the sound you get from overlaying multiple octatonic scales and their respective chords. Thanks Ed, without that perspective, harmonically, the piece didn't make any sense to me.

As a jazz guitarist, I've always used these scales over dominant and altered dominant chords for creating tension.
Rock / jazz guitarists like Robben Ford and Larry Carlton use them all the time which helps give them their distinctive sound. 

It's just amazing how one devise like this can be used in different contexts to create totally different sounding music.
Then again at the end of the day, good music mimics life, it's all about tension and release.


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## DocMidi657 (Mar 21, 2017)

robharvey said:


> When I was at Uni, it was known as the diminished scale. The Jazzer's used to use it constantly over any harmonic minor progression that lands on the diminished.
> 
> Fun fact about it though. If you play major arpeggios on each scale step they actually fit in the scale...


Hi Rob, Can you clairify your "if you play Major Arpeggios on each scale step they all actual fit in the scale" comment... The reason I ask (and please correct me if I am missing something) if we take a C Ocatonic Scale or (diminshed starting with the half step) first we get our scale C Db Eb E F# G A and Bb. If one tries to then build a major triad on each degree of this scale as you mentioned the second degree (The Db) to be a major chord/arpeggio would require an F natural which is not present in this scale? Am I missing something?

Dave


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## ed buller (Mar 21, 2017)

no your not. Each octatonic scale has 4 maj, 4 min. triads


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## ed buller (Mar 21, 2017)

it's when you cross pollinate between all the scales AND their modes ( one scale one mode in Rimsky's case)







Or as In Igor's case...ALL the scales and their modes.


e


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## wbacer (Mar 21, 2017)

ed buller said:


> no your not. Each octatonic scale has 4 maj, 4 min. triads


Ed, thanks again for sharing, did you get these pages from, Richard Taruskin's book "Stravinsky and the Russian Traditions"?
If so, it looks like two volumes, used on Amazon for around $100.


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## ed buller (Mar 21, 2017)

i made them in Sibelius . The Rimsky one is from his "Notebooks"...14 volume set...all in russian...I have two !

The others I just made myself. But all the info is in Taruskin though he doesn't spell it out quite so simply. I did it with a friend who's a professor of music. It was a bit of a Eureka moment for both of us. 

I really recommend Taruskin's books. It's steep but I paid £100 for both volumes.Worth every penny. A lot of very useful stuff. I'm more interested in the first 10 years of Igor than anything later.

best

e


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## wbacer (Mar 21, 2017)

Yes, a Eureka moment for me as well. Thanks again for sharing your Sibelius pages. Very helpful, this opens up a whole new way of thinking.


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## ed buller (Mar 21, 2017)

your most welcome.

essential reading:

Nikolai Rimsky Korsakov : Practical Manual of Harmony

Paolo Susanni : Music and Twentieth Century Tonality

Richard Cohn : Audacious Euphony 

Dimitri Tymoczko : A Geometry Of Music

best

e


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## synergy543 (Mar 21, 2017)

Great discussion and thanks for the contributions so far!
I haven't read through this yet (35 pgs) but it may be of interest to those reading this thread. Stravinsky and the Octatonic: A Reconsideration Dmitri Tymoczko
http://dmitri.mycpanel.princeton.edu/files/publications/stravinsky.pdf


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## ed buller (Mar 21, 2017)

yes...it IS very interesting . He is a naysayer . But to be honest I find his theory regarding Stravinsky's compositional techniques far more convoluted and unlikely . This is an old battle . Van de Toon probably started it with is book





I am however firmly on his and Taurskin's side . It just makes more sense especially when you take into account his years of study with Rimsky.

Tymoczko has an excellent contribution to make ( his book is fabulous ) but I can't help feeling he is being deliberately contentious to make waves

e


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## synergy543 (Mar 21, 2017)

Naysayers and Yaysayers? Octotonic fake news? The plot seems to thicken.
I thought it was just about the octotonic scale and its origins with Rimsky-Korsakov and Stravinsky's usage, which all seems pretty clear. I'll have to break down and order the Taruskin books I guess (but I'll start by reading the link I posted).

Any hint as to what the controversy is?

OK, I'll put out my layman's observations first (then I'll have to go back and read the theory: 

1) The octotonic scales allow for some really musically useful overlaps between various chords and other scales. For example, you can create (partial) overlap between whole tone and octotonic. Enough so that you can intersperse the two scales over a single chord (Bb, C, D, F#) - Whole tone scale on C, and octotonic on C (C, C#, D#...).

2) The octotonic scale also allows for some overlap between it and the altered phrygian on top of a dominant chord. C7 - octotonic on C (C, C#, D#....) and the altered phrygian over a dominant (C, Db,E, F, G, Ab, Bb)

3) The octotonic scales also plays nicely over diminished scales which allow easy modulations and movement to many different chords and keys.

The above possibilities really open up a fun musical sandbox to play with. Just about anything goes! Great fodder for compositions around the turn of the century by Rimsky-Korsakov, Stravinsky, Gliere and others.

OK, now I'll have to go read up on the serious theories about all of this. What am I missing?


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## ed buller (Mar 21, 2017)

honestly i despair with musicologist sometimes. I once witnessed an argument that nearly descended into fisticuffs over the tristan chord !, but i'm happy with the octatonic explanation for the rite. Makes the most sense to me

e


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## robharvey (Mar 21, 2017)

DocMidi657 said:


> Hi Rob, Can you clairify your "if you play Major Arpeggios on each scale step they all actual fit in the scale" comment... The reason I ask (and please correct me if I am missing something) if we take a C Ocatonic Scale or (diminshed starting with the half step) first we get our scale C Db Eb E F# G A and Bb. If one tries to then build a major triad on each degree of this scale as you mentioned the second degree (The Db) to be a major chord/arpeggio would require an F natural which is not present in this scale? Am I missing something?
> 
> Dave



Wow I'm so wrong in this! Sorry! Apologies! I learn't all this about 10 years ago, but I have a clear memory of being told it works... Wow... 

Always check your facts!


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## DocMidi657 (Mar 21, 2017)

robharvey said:


> Wow I'm so wrong in this! Sorry! Apologies! I learn't all this about 10 years ago, but I have a clear memory of being told it works... Wow...
> 
> Always check your facts!


No worries at all Rob, I am a bit of a jazzer and work with that scale alot in an improv context and was wondering if I mised that because if it worked to play major triads on each scale degree on say a #11 13th chords (which would be easy to think about when playing) I was going to shed that uniil I got it to 300BPM!  Have a good night!


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## DocMidi657 (Mar 21, 2017)

ed buller said:


> it's when you cross pollinate between all the scales AND their modes ( one scale one mode in Rimsky's case)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Ed for the info!..Dave


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## ed buller (Mar 22, 2017)

Here is a chapter from one of Taurskin's books

best

ed


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