# CSB New Mixing test



## ricoderks (Apr 16, 2020)

Hi all,

I dont really like the out of the box sound from CSB but i love the library very much.
I finally took proper time to make the sound Ilike. Mainly wider imaging, EQ and reverb.

Any advice or feedback would be very welcome.


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## Snarf (Apr 16, 2020)

Sounds pretty good!

I think 'Tyler Ford Rap Scout' really nailed the critique: "Honestly a fire track bro.. I honestly think you’d benefit from getting our in-depth online training about artist success! Check the link in my bio, you're welcome 🔥 "


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## axb312 (Apr 16, 2020)

ricoderks said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I dont really like the out of the box sound from CSB but i love the library very much.
> I finally took proper time to make the sound Ilike. Mainly wider imaging, EQ and reverb.
> ...




If you could demonstrate how this was achieved, that'd be great...


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## ThomasNL (Apr 16, 2020)

Yeah, would love to know your process for achieving this sound!

EDIT: Great composition btw


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## ricoderks (Apr 16, 2020)

Snarf said:


> Sounds pretty good!
> 
> I think 'Tyler Ford Rap Scout' really nailed the critique: "Honestly a fire track bro.. I honestly think you’d benefit from getting our in-depth online training about artist success! Check the link in my bio, you're welcome 🔥 "


I accidentally marked this post as spam too quickly, haha. Didn't even made the link to that ridiculous soundcloud reply.
Thanks though!

Rico


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## ricoderks (Apr 16, 2020)

So basically, its 2c audio predecence first for panning. Then fabfilter pro q3 for cutting some resonances. And some high treble boost. Then grouped together and put a small reverb on it from altiverb and seventh heaven.

Cheers!


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## Scamper (Apr 16, 2020)

It sounds pretty good within this template. Is this also CSS in there? Do you have any processing for that?

I was gonna try to fiddle with my CSS/CSB sound by doing some more EQ matching, for example with CineBrass.


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## ricoderks (Apr 16, 2020)

Scamper said:


> It sounds pretty good within this template. Is this also CSS in there? Do you have any processing for that?
> 
> I was gonna try to fiddle with my CSS/CSB sound by doing some more EQ matching, for example with CineBrass.


Hey Scamper!
Thanks, no CSS in this one. Its Con Moto.
I tried that too with cinebrass. Even tried to match eq all mics separately. But that did not work that great and used too much ram for my laptop. So i used the mix. (Except for the trumpets. Boosted the room quite a bunch) now working on CSS too!

Cheers!

Cheers!


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## Scamper (Apr 16, 2020)

ricoderks said:


> I tried that too with cinebrass. Even tried to match eq all mics separately. But that did not work that great and used too much ram for my laptop. So i used the mix. (Except for the trumpets. Boosted the room quite a bunch) now working on CSS too!



Interesting. So, did you keep the matched eq on the mix mics for this demo?

Unfortunately, I don't have much proper sources to use for eq matching with CSS. Next to some ensemble libraries, I'll probably try it with SCS, which sounds like a horrible idea. I'm curious to see, what you'll come up with.


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## ricoderks (Apr 16, 2020)

Scamper said:


> Interesting. So, did you keep the matched eq on the mix mics for this demo?
> 
> Unfortunately, I don't have much proper sources to use for eq matching with CSS. Next to some ensemble libraries, I'll probably try it with SCS, which sounds like a horrible idea. I'm curious to see, what you'll come up with.


Yes I did. Matched by ear in the end. The main difference between the out of the box sound is the imaging and less mid/mid/low overall. I think cinebrass has better close mics too. (More section mics really). But the only extra mics i turned on were for the trumpets for more room. For CSS im also kinda doing a blend between conmoto/SCS/cinestrings. Also noticed its mainly eq around 500hz.


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## BenG (Apr 16, 2020)

Snarf said:


> I think 'Tyler Ford Rap Scout' really nailed the critique: "Honestly a fire track bro.. I honestly think you’d benefit from getting our in-depth online training about artist success! Check the link in my bio, you're welcome 🔥 "



Haha, this comment is gold! 

I can't offer any substantial critique on the mix since I am currently using cheap earbuds, but I just wanted to say I loved your piece. Fantastic writing!!!


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## Beat Kaufmann (Apr 21, 2020)

ricoderks said:


> ...Any advice or feedback would be very welcome.




Nice sounding brass! Wow!

_...Any advice or feedback would be very welcome._

A) While listening I noticed that the mix is a bit overdone stereo technically. If you are using a stereowidener, I would set it less extreme. Especially in the lower mids it is exaggerated. The correlation there is often well below zero. You could use an EQ and only attenuate the side signal at the lower mids (e.g. Fabfilter Q3).

B) I also noticed that everything sounds from the right or left. In the middle of the stereo field there is almost nothing but a hole .

C) If you position the choir more in the middle, it will come through more and nicely which would be good for it anyway. Also: You would have no more "hole". So two birds with one stone.

These are 3 suggestions for improvement - at the highest level of course.
All the best
Beat


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## ricoderks (Apr 21, 2020)

Beat Kaufmann said:


> Nice sounding brass! Wow!
> 
> _...Any advice or feedback would be very welcome._
> 
> ...


Thanks Beat,

That is really helpful!
Thanks for the advice and kind words.
I have the right tools, so now its up to the right usage, haha!

Thanks again,

Rico


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## Giscard Rasquin (Apr 21, 2020)

Sounds great Rico! 
I’m in the same boat as you as in not liking the out of the box sound completely. 
I did try to play around a bit with the different mic positions pushing the brass a bit further to the back and adding some reverb on top and that improved it to my taste. 
Going to try a bit of eq as well like you said
Thanks!


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## ricoderks (Apr 21, 2020)

GuitarG said:


> Sounds great Rico!
> I’m in the same boat as you as in not liking the out of the box sound completely.
> I did try to play around a bit with the different mic positions pushing the brass a bit further to the back and adding some reverb on top and that improved it to my taste.
> Going to try a bit of eq as well like you said
> Thanks!


Thanks man! For trumpets especially its nice to boost the room mic too! Thats for me the biggest issue of the library. Close mic positions! Too close! Have to agree with Beat Kaufman about the mid in the mix. I like the sound from sony stage. Kinda wide imaging. But i overdid it slightly or did not make the rest mono enough. There is indeed a sort of gap in the middle. kinda weird. :D
Trumpets could use some high treble too!

Cheers!

Rico


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## muziksculp (Apr 22, 2020)

ricoderks said:


> So basically, its 2c audio predecence first for panning. Then fabfilter pro q3 for cutting some resonances. And some high treble boost. Then grouped together and put a small reverb on it from altiverb and seventh heaven.
> 
> Cheers!



Thanks for sharing your demo, it sounds very good. 

How do you like using *Precedence* ? I'm thinking about getting 2C-Audio Precedence + Breeze 2 Combo Deal. Have you considered/tried using their Breeze 2 Reverb With Precedence ?


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## ricoderks (Apr 23, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> Thanks for sharing your demo, it sounds very good.
> 
> How do you like using *Precedence* ? I'm thinking about getting 2C-Audio Precedence + Breeze 2 Combo Deal. Have you considered/tried using their Breeze 2 Reverb With Precedence ?


I like predecence. It gives a more realistic sound than just panning normally. Its not cpu heavy for me so K so use it when composing too. I dont have the combo since i have enough reverbs, haha. Have B2, too. But barely use it. Super cpu heavy... You can use whatever reverb you like with the right settings. But im using predecence mostly 'dry' since the samples have room or verb baked in.

Cheers

Rico


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## muziksculp (Apr 23, 2020)

ricoderks said:


> I like predecence. It gives a more realistic sound than just panning normally. Its not cpu heavy for me so K so use it when composing too. I dont have the combo since i have enough reverbs, haha. Have B2, too. But barely use it. Super cpu heavy... You can use whatever reverb you like with the right settings. But im using predecence mostly 'dry' since the samples have room or verb baked in.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Rico



Thanks for the helpful feedback.


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## Bluemount Score (Apr 23, 2020)

That's super cool! I kinda agree on the hole in the middle. Otherwise, that got me interested in Precedence even more. Loving CSB.


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## ricoderks (Apr 23, 2020)

Bluemount Score said:


> That's super cool! I kinda agree on the hole in the middle. Otherwise, that got me interested in Precedence even more. Loving CSB.


Oh yes! Like i said. I agree with Beat too. Csb is super cool. Just like predecence. First I was like.... I don't need it. All cool mixes I know are done without. but it just sounds super convincing!


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## Bluemount Score (Apr 23, 2020)

ricoderks said:


> Just like predecence. First I was like.... I don't need it. All cool mixes I know are done without. but it just sounds super convincing!


The $99 seem fair to me, will do some more investigation...


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## ricoderks (May 7, 2020)

@Beat Kaufmann I've tested some more with the room sound and think you were absolutely right. The center felt a bit too empty. Hope you like my new tests!


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## axb312 (May 7, 2020)

ricoderks said:


> @Beat Kaufmann I've tested some more with the room sound and think you were absolutely right. The center felt a bit too empty. Hope you like my new tests!




Which woodwinds are those?


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## ricoderks (May 7, 2020)

axb312 said:


> Which woodwinds are those?


Not that great ones.... Symphobia series (flute symphobia 2, rest lumina) except the runs: hollywoodwinds cinesamples


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## ricoderks (Sep 23, 2020)

Hey everyone. I'm trying to further improve my sound.
With mainly CSS/CSB but also a lot of performance samples, cinebrass some 8dio and projectsam.



Hope we can discuss it over here!

Rico


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## Andrew0568 (Sep 23, 2020)

Sounds great! I'd love to know how you processed CSB


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## mcalis (Sep 23, 2020)

@ricoderks that sounds wonderful! I had something of an epiphany some years ago about what makes for a realistic orchestral sound vs a clearly sampled sound which has to do with the openness/transparency of the sound. It was based on a video from one of the cinesample guys where he went through the stages of mockup to final recording. The final recording (done in a church if I remember correctly) just sounded a lot less dense and more open than the mockup.

Point being that while (I think) I know that openness is important, I've always struggled to achieve it with VSTs. Your brass example however does achieve that coveted, wide-open sound!

Is this still using precedence?

My own attempts at mixing CSB (because like you, I'm not a huge fan of the out of the box sound) has lead me down a path of using Earreverb for ER & panning + 7th heaven for tail.

If you're up for it, I would be interested in comparing the same MIDI in my setup vs yours. Would you be open to that?

(enne, als je om te kopen bent voor je instellingen...  )


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## Giscard Rasquin (Sep 23, 2020)

Sounds awesome Rico!! 



mcalis said:


> (enne, als je om te kopen bent voor je instellingen...  )



😂😂 dan zijn we er al 2


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## ricoderks (Feb 25, 2021)

Andrew0568 said:


> Sounds great! I'd love to know how you processed CSB





mcalis said:


> @ricoderks that sounds wonderful! I had something of an epiphany some years ago about what makes for a realistic orchestral sound vs a clearly sampled sound which has to do with the openness/transparency of the sound. It was based on a video from one of the cinesample guys where he went through the stages of mockup to final recording. The final recording (done in a church if I remember correctly) just sounded a lot less dense and more open than the mockup.
> 
> Point being that while (I think) I know that openness is important, I've always struggled to achieve it with VSTs. Your brass example however does achieve that coveted, wide-open sound!
> 
> ...


Hey guys!
Sorry for the late reply. Totally missed out on your nice comments! My bad!

First of all i'm not using the mix mic. But more room and less close. Second to that Precedence and Fabfilter Pro Q3. The rest is reverb. Mostly Seventh heaven.

Also, Sure lets do a direct comparison, no problem.

Currently my template sounds like this. More and more happy with it:


This is only a template premix. So the music is not mixed after the mockup for now.


Rico


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## marclawsonmusic (Feb 25, 2021)

Sounds great @ricoderks!


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## mcalis (Feb 27, 2021)

Agreed, it sounds really good, I love the spaciousness of it.

The only nitpick I have is that I feel the woodwinds are slightly too far to the sides. That's just a matter of taste however. Personally I prefer to have them pretty much dead-center, but feeling relatively far away. On a few more listens I think in general there's not a lot of stuff in the center. Again, probably just a matter of taste


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## Spaddie (Feb 27, 2021)

ricoderks said:


> Hey guys!
> Sorry for the late reply. Totally missed out on your nice comments! My bad!
> 
> First of all i'm not using the mix mic. But more room and less close. Second to that Precedence and Fabfilter Pro Q3. The rest is reverb. Mostly Seventh heaven.
> ...



Fantastic work.

I'm always curious about how to improve soundstaging with orchestral samples. Would you be happy with sharing your Precedence presets for your instruments?


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## ricoderks (Feb 28, 2021)

mcalis said:


> Agreed, it sounds really good, I love the spaciousness of it.
> 
> The only nitpick I have is that I feel the woodwinds are slightly too far to the sides. That's just a matter of taste however. Personally I prefer to have them pretty much dead-center, but feeling relatively far away. On a few more listens I think in general there's not a lot of stuff in the center. Again, probably just a matter of taste


Yes true! I'e kinde decided to do this to make room for dialogue and sfx. But maybe its too much! Thank you for this tip! Much appreciated.

Rico


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## ricoderks (Feb 28, 2021)

Spaddie said:


> Fantastic work.
> 
> I'm always curious about how to improve soundstaging with orchestral samples. Would you be happy with sharing your Precedence presets for your instruments?


Well, thats a bit much. I literally put precedence on everything haha. Mostly i use the 'u' algorithm. Leave the depth to 50 and just pan the instrument to the desired position. I tend to put the mod setting to half of the normal settings. So only open for about a quarter. 25 and 50 that is, i think! There are some exceptions like cinebrass where I've put the depth to 100. But thats really it!


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## Spaddie (Feb 28, 2021)

ricoderks said:


> Well, thats a bit much. I literally put precedence on everything haha. Mostly i use the 'u' algorithm. Leave the depth to 50 and just pan the instrument to the desired position. I tend to put the mod setting to half of the normal settings. So only open for about a quarter. 25 and 50 that is, i think! There are some exceptions like cinebrass where I've put the depth to 100. But thats really it!


No worries at all, I really appreciate it! Just getting used to the parameters and how they impact the sound, I agree that the 'u' algorithm seems to sound the best. 

With CSS/CSB, would you flat out keep the depth at 50 for the entire ensemble? Or is it literally just cinebrass that you push it further back? Thanks again for your help on this.


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## ricoderks (Feb 28, 2021)

Spaddie said:


> No worries at all, I really appreciate it! Just getting used to the parameters and how they impact the sound, I agree that the 'u' algorithm seems to sound the best.
> 
> With CSS/CSB, would you flat out keep the depth at 50 for the entire ensemble? Or is it literally just cinebrass that you push it further back? Thanks again for your help on this.


Yes for csb and css i choose the mics first before i hit predecence. Mainly more room for csb and nore close for css. Dont like the mix it somes with. Cinebrass sounds a bit too upfront and wide for me. So i narrow it down a tiny bit and push it a back by setting the depth to 100. Works really wel i think to match cinebrass and csb a bit more, so you can choose what works best for certain phrases without the obvious switch to another library. Predecence is really great for this to me.

R


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## Spaddie (Feb 28, 2021)

ricoderks said:


> Yes for csb and css i choose the mics first before i hit predecence. Mainly more room for csb and nore close for css. Dont like the mix it somes with. Cinebrass sounds a bit too upfront and wide for me. So i narrow it down a tiny bit and push it a back by setting the depth to 100. Works really wel i think to match cinebrass and csb a bit more, so you can choose what works best for certain phrases without the obvious switch to another library. Predecence is really great for this to me.
> 
> R


Awesome, well your mixes certainly speak for themselves! I did a test run last night (I only recently bought Precedence) and it's crazy how realistic it makes CSS and CSB.

Cheers.


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## tc9000 (Feb 28, 2021)

Great sound - feels clear, natural and panoramic to me, and im listening on crappy PC speakers! Well done!


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## ricoderks (Feb 28, 2021)

tc9000 said:


> Great sound - feels clear, natural and panoramic to me, and im listening on crappy PC speakers! Well done!


Thanks a lot man! Im sure there is lots to improve. Trying to figure out where to start haha


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## mcalis (Mar 2, 2021)

OK, hopefully this isn't hijacking the thread too much but here's what I got out of CSS/W/B. In thsi excerpt percussion is Hollywood Percussion. I use panagement instead of precedence.







The CSB trumpet shorts lack a very sharp attack IMO - I think I will have to fill in with HWB trumpets. Which, I should add, would be the only spot so far that the CS series needs help because aside from Piano and perc, everything is CSS/W/B.


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## ricoderks (Mar 3, 2021)

mcalis said:


> OK, hopefully this isn't hijacking the thread too much but here's what I got out of CSS/W/B. In thsi excerpt percussion is Hollywood Percussion. I use panagement instead of precedence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice man! I agree on my centre image being too empty. And of course this is no hijacking! I also agree on the attack of the trumpets. But it kind of depends on the phrase. By the way are you using some kind of orchestration plug-in or multi? I think some Dynamics are sounding too much the same across different sections. But I know this was not the point.


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## mcalis (Mar 3, 2021)

ricoderks said:


> Nice man! I agree on my centre image being too empty. And of course this is no hijacking! I also agree on the attack of the trumpets. But it kind of depends on the phrase. By the way are you using some kind of orchestration plug-in or multi? I think some Dynamics are sounding too much the same across different sections. But I know this was not the point.


Good point, and good ear!

I sometimes use a single midi track with midi sends + midi modifier (cubase) on it. So basically I can press a single note and it will send transposed midi notes to vlns/vlas/cellos for example. But yes, working this way does mean that the CC data is exactly the same across the instruments. I did use that technique in the strings demo and the shorts demo, but not in the "action 1" excerpt.

In the "Action 1" excerpt played in the notes on a piano patch, then aligned to the grid by hand and without snap enabled, so the timing differences of the piano performance are mostly preserved. From there, I split out the chords to individual instruments and adjust velocities where necessary. This is the downside of all the delays in the CS series, I can't play it in live.

Something else that might contribute to the same-y dynamics across sections is the maximizer on the master bus. I'd be curious to know where you hear this the most @ricoderks, I have a hunch which parts you mean and would be keen to know if we're hearing the same thing


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## ricoderks (Mar 3, 2021)

mcalis said:


> Good point, and good ear!
> 
> I sometimes use a single midi track with midi sends + midi modifier (cubase) on it. So basically I can press a single note and it will send transposed midi notes to vlns/vlas/cellos for example. But yes, working this way does mean that the CC data is exactly the same across the instruments. I did use that technique in the strings demo and the shorts demo, but not in the "action 1" excerpt.
> 
> ...


I knew it haha! Also I'm not sure its the maximizer. Maybe a tiny bit.
To me its most noticeable on the strings demo around 12 seconds. But I think its because of the midi trick you used. All notes get triggered at the same time while getting the same cc01 change. 
Its funny because to me the action cue obviously sounds the best!


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## NeonMediaKJT (Mar 3, 2021)

Damn. These demos are blowing me away.


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## hdsmile (Mar 3, 2021)

Great sounds examples Ricoderks and Mcalis thanks! Guys, are you using CSB/CSS scrips for fix delay from NoamL or Ihnoc?


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## ricoderks (Mar 3, 2021)

hdsmile said:


> Great sounds examples Ricoderks and Mcalis thanks! Guys, are you using CSB/CSS scrips for fix delay from NoamL or Ihnoc?


Thanks! And naaahh im just moving notes back in the grid.


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## hdsmile (Mar 3, 2021)

ricoderks said:


> And naaahh im just moving notes back in the grid.


sorry m8, a few more question, what DAW are you using?
Please, what your setting in Kontakt on horns / trombones:

1. Master Volume: (0.0 or -/+6.0.. etc)?
2. Room Mic Volume: 0.0 or -/+..? and the rotation to left /right -/+ L/R ? 10,30,50...?
3. Close Mic Volume: 0.0 or -/+..? and the rotation to left /right -/+ L/R ? 10,30,50...?

thanks


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## ricoderks (Mar 3, 2021)

hdsmile said:


> sorry m8, a few more question, what DAW are you using?
> Please, what your setting in Kontakt on horns / trombones:
> 
> 1. Master Volume: (0.0 or -/+6.0.. etc)?
> ...


Hey man. Im using cubase, but the daw really does not matter. The example of the first page was just mix mic. Later tests are mainly more room, less main and close. I pan them a tiny bit more with precedence and leave the master on 0db. Except for the trumpets, i think i've set that to -2. Not sure.
Hope that helps.


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## hdsmile (Mar 3, 2021)

ricoderks said:


> Hey man. Im using cubase, but the daw really does not matter. The example of the first page was just mix mic. Later tests are mainly more room, less main and close. I pan them a tiny bit more with precedence and leave the master on 0db. Except for the trumpets, i think i've set that to -2. Not sure.
> Hope that helps.


Oh I'm logic user, so I wanna also try the precedence, just got the demo, where did you place the plugin, on Brass Stack (all brass section) or on each midi track? I wanna try it in combination with 7 heaven or Spaces 2


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## ricoderks (Mar 3, 2021)

hdsmile said:


> Oh I'm logic user, so I wanna also try the precedence, just got the demo, where did you place the plugin, on Brass Stack (all brass section) or on each midi track? I wanna try it in combination with 7 heaven or Spaces 2


You need to make separate outputs if you use 1 kontakt instance. Or use multiple kontakts. You cannot put it on a midi tracks since midi does not contain audio. Then i use it on separate instruments. Not on the whole brass. Because if you pan the whole brass to the left, the trumpets, trombones and tuba start sounding from the middle. Unless its on purpose, you dont want that. After that i still make a group bus and route all individual tracks to that Brass group. There i use spaces/seventh heaven too.

Good luck.


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## hdsmile (Mar 4, 2021)

it's looks a bit confusing for me, obviously due I'm use logic, but it doesn't really mean anything.
First of all I use VEPro7 (slave) in connection to Logic (Master) with BBC template which I have re-edit for my needs.
In Logic-template I can not do much, as it can be easily destroyed.
I don't know if i'm doing it right, but on uploaded image you can see where I put the Precedence plugin, so it goes to bus's 23-25 which is suitable for effects plugins. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## ricoderks (Mar 4, 2021)

hdsmile said:


> it's looks a bit confusing for me, obviously due I'm use logic, but it doesn't really mean anything.
> First of all I use VEPro7 (slave) in connection to Logic (Master) with BBC template which I have re-edit for my needs.
> In Logic-template I can not do much, as it can be easily destroyed.
> I don't know if i'm doing it right, but on uploaded image you can see where I put the Precedence plugin, so it goes to bus's 23-25 which is suitable for effects plugins. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


I think you use it as a send. Use it as insert instead!

Also: Another tests. Intro of first Cue from Night at the Musem


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## ricoderks (May 29, 2021)

As some of you know, i'm working on making a template for CSS-series: Project Colossal.
These tests from CSB mixing (and css) lead up to this point to make this product.

This is the first official demo from Julien and Vitaly Jardon!


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