# Classical music dynamics in Ableton Live



## onnevan (Aug 15, 2015)

Hi everyone!
I struggle trying to do the music more dynamic in Ableton, classical techniques are very complicated to replicate, glissandos and rubato for example or making a composition in "free time", with variable bpm. Also the change ¡n volume, intention, accents and all those kind of things, how can I replicate them and sound less machine-made?


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## sinkd (Aug 15, 2015)

For tempo changes see the link below and scroll down to the part about Clyph-x (a free add-on, very useful for making tempo changes with clips). All other parameters are editable in either session (clip envelopes, velocity, etc.) or arrangement view in Ableton. Sounds like you might want to work without the metronome in arrangement view some of the time.

https://www.ableton.com/answers/how-to-smoothly-make-tempo-changes-in-session-view


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 15, 2015)

I think Ableton Live is a brilliant app but it is named "Live" for a reason. I think it is not really a fine choice for "classical techniques."


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## sinkd (Aug 15, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> I think Ableton Live is a brilliant app but it is named "Live" for a reason. I think it is not really a fine choice for "classical techniques."


Agreed. But if it's all you've got...


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## dsmo (Aug 15, 2015)

I would consider buying another DAW. One with some sort of notation or staff view, for starters. If you're doing classical you really need to be able to work with the notes (I'm assuming you read music, since you're doing classical). I personally use Sonar, but an older version (8.5). But you can get the artist version of the latest sonar for 99.00 last I knew. It has a great staff view for working, but it's not to be confused with a true notation system. but it does allow infinite scrolling in both dimensions, which allows you to navigate quickly. Some DAWS only let you see a short section of the score. Also, Sonar has good midi functions, and is an all-around great and loaded DAW.


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## onnevan (Aug 15, 2015)

Thanks for the answers
No I'm not writing clasical (and can't read music, so Sybelius or other staff daws are not an option for me) just scrore parts for animations and games I'm making, but I'm very interested in classical dynamics and technique. For example, how would you make a piece first on piano, in free tempo and then add strings, winds and percussion and keep all syncrhonized? I mean compose and play a piece with rubato even if slight, and then add other instruments?


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## dsmo (Aug 15, 2015)

onnevan said:


> Thanks for the answers
> No I'm not writing clasical (and can't read music, so Sybelius or other staff daws are not an option for me) just scrore parts for animations and games I'm making, but I'm very interested in classical dynamics and technique. For example, how would you make a piece first on piano, in free tempo and then add strings, winds and percussion and keep all syncrhonized? I mean compose and play a piece with rubato even if slight, and then add other instruments?


My mistake! I can't really give you any good advice, as I work with notes. By the same token, I'm a complete ignoramus when it comes to PRV. But I'm sure there are many here who can help. Good luck!


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## Saxer (Aug 15, 2015)

it's difficult in any daw... in logic i would do my piano recording, render it to audio and try to reclock the tempo to this audio file. should be possible in live too (though i don't know if live has a tempo list or curve).


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## onnevan (Aug 16, 2015)

@ Saxer: Yes it has. So if I understand you, once I record my piano, celeste or whatever keys, I then have to "draw" my tempo curve acordingly?


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## onnevan (Aug 16, 2015)

Maybe my question should change to something like "Need advice on applying classical techniques to DAWs"


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## bryla (Aug 16, 2015)

You can turn off quantization and metronome in Ableton as well. When I do rubato in a DAW it never aligns with the tempo track.


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## gbar (Aug 16, 2015)

You should probably get Daniel James to comment on this one. Isn't he still using Ableton?


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## onnevan (Aug 16, 2015)

gbar said:


> You should probably get Daniel James to comment on this one. Isn't he still using Ableton?


Hey, I became a member member of VI-CONTROL because an interview with him!


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## InLight-Tone (Aug 16, 2015)

Live is a brilliant piece of software for experimental and dance music but for doing media composition it's a pain in the ass. I tried to get along with it for awhile. Switching to Cubase though was such a relief in so many ways I can't tell you. Daniel James gets on with it somehow but he's not building large templates, using expression maps and such. That's where Live really falls apart. Switch if you can...


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## onnevan (Aug 16, 2015)

When I first discovered Ableton Live I felt relieved, at last a DAW that was intuitive and didn't get in the way of creating music and composing. I love that, since I'm an intuitive and experimental kind of person, not a technical one, although you have to be technical at some point when creating music. I'm curious where Live is weaker regarding classical composition, what are your opinions? you have pointed a couple, inLight-Tone. Can you be more specific?


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 16, 2015)

Any DAW where I cannot see notes on staves is not for me. I am a composer, not an f-ing DJ.


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## onnevan (Aug 16, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Any DAW where I cannot see notes on staves is not for me. I am a composer, not an f-ing DJ.


Luckly (or not), technolgy allows us, poor musical analphabets to make fantastic things, such as orchestral music. Having said that, I'd preffer to be able to read and write.


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## careyford (Aug 16, 2015)

I love Ableton but I'm still learning it. You might want to look at Reaper http://www.reaper.fm/

See this thread
http://vi-control.net/community/thr...r-midi-orchestration-work.47962/#post-3889331


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## dsmo (Aug 16, 2015)

I agree that you can make wonderful music without understanding musical notation. But, given that it's simple to learn, and is the international language of music, which people all over the world understand, why deprive yourself of such a powerful tool? It's not like learning calculus. Anyone with an IQ in the normal range could learn to do it in a week. If they really wanted to.


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## onnevan (Aug 17, 2015)

careyford said:


> I love Ableton but I'm still learning it. You might want to look at Reaper http://www.reaper.fm/
> 
> See this thread
> http://vi-control.net/community/thr...r-midi-orchestration-work.47962/#post-3889331


I'm trying out Reaper now, looks good but it seems like it hasn't many instruments, even less orchestral


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## careyford (Aug 17, 2015)

onnevan said:


> I'm trying out Reaper now, looks good but it seems like it hasn't many instruments, even less orchestral


I have (way too many) orchestral instruments in Kontakt, Play, and VSL that I use so I haven't explored the included instruments at all. That's probably part of why they can offer it for so little money is they aren't out developing or licensing orchestral instruments.


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## onnevan (Aug 17, 2015)

mdiemer said:


> I agree that you can make wonderful music without understanding musical notation. But, given that it's simple to learn, and is the international language of music, which people all over the world understand, why deprive yourself of such a powerful tool? It's not like learning calculus. Anyone with an IQ in the normal range could learn to do it in a week. If they really wanted to.



Reading I guess is a matter of practice, but I dont think I could do it in a week. And about musical theory, I know basic concepts like chord construction but there are always concepts that elude me, maybe I'm too dumb, like the circle of fifths for example. I wish I found some tutorials that explain music theory in an intuitive and simple way. Maybe I haven't searched hard enough


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 17, 2015)

Believe me, you are _easily_ smart enough to learn a fair amount of music theory. I taught some musicians to understood a lot of it in a short while and some of them were otherwise dumber than squirrels.


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## gbar (Aug 18, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Believe me, you are _easily_ smart enough to learn a fair amount of music theory. I taught some musicians to understood a lot of it in a short while and some of them were otherwise dumber than squirrels.



Squirrel libel.


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## Daniel James (Aug 18, 2015)

onnevan said:


> Hey, I became a member member of VI-CONTROL because an interview with him!



Hey mate,

First off ignore all the bullshit people say that you can't write orchestral music with Ableton Live, many have not sat with it for more than 5 minutes (or at all) and are talking out their ass. Live doesn't have a score view however unless you are planning to print out all your pieces for real players there isn't much need these days and if you do there are far better dedicated pieces of software for doing so than the built in ones (I know of way more Orchestrators using Sibelius or Finale than the built in Logic Pro editor.) Albeton Live is just as capable as any other DAW in writing and producing music, it just handles things differently, in the end its all about which product gets you to the ideas in your head the fastest.

So onto your questions. First off make sure you are writing in the Arrange view (which looks like all the other daws) and not the session view (which looks like a mixer). 

So to adjust tempo: look down near the bottom where it says 'Master' make sure that track is wide enough by clicking and dragging so that you have a few white dropdown boxes. The top one should say mixer, then the bottom one will have the option for song Tempo. click that and the master channel will show a dotted line. Click anywhere on that line and it will make a point you can drag around. If you hold alt and click and drag on a line inbetween two points you will make a curve. Something else you can do which is cool is assign a midi controller to the tempo. To do this click in the very top right where it says midi and everything will change colour, then in the top right click on your tempo and move a midi dial, you can now control the tempo with that.

For accents, once you record a part you double click on the midi clip which will load the midi view at the bottom. The velocity of each midi note is demonstrated by a line with a dot at the top of it. The higher the dot the more velocity, the lower the softer. To edit expression and modulation CCs (and all the others) in the midi info at the bottom right you will see a little circle button that has an E on it. Click that and it will give you a drop down of all the available midi CC data. Then selecting from the dropdown will give you a dotted line which you then click on to create dots and lines of midi information.

-DJ


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## onnevan (Aug 18, 2015)

Daniel James said:


> Hey mate,
> 
> First off ignore all the bullshit people say that you can't write orchestral music with Ableton Live, many have not sat with it for more than 5 minutes (or at all) and are talking out their ass. Live doesn't have a score view however unless you are planning to print out all your pieces for real players there isn't much need these days and if you do there are far better dedicated pieces of software for doing so than the built in ones (I know of way more Orchestrators using Sibelius or Finale than the built in Logic Pro editor.) Albeton Live is just as capable as any other DAW in writing and producing music, it just handles things differently, in the end its all about which product gets you to the ideas in your head the fastest.
> 
> ...


Hi Daniel, really pleased to meet you!!!
First of all thank you very much for your tips, some of them I already knew but they are great.
I love Ableton because it invites me to experiment and is so "transparent", it doesn't gets in the way of making music. I have red some opinions about Ableton and how most people think is for DJing only, but I never have used it for that, instead I've made rock music and now I'm making simple "scores" for my animations and games.

I'm a great admirer of Danny Elfman. I've listened to his demos and to me they sound almost like the orchestral versions. Of course you can tell they are created with a computer and samples but they are very rich, with every nuance and detail and with all the dynamics classical music has. It keeps me wandering how can he do that! of course he has unique talent and you can not learn that .

For me composing in Live feels very natural although there are some things that seem to be almost impossible to do with it (how the hell do you make portamento in Live???) 

I'll stick with Ableton Live, since is what I like the most, and thanks to your advice, you are the proof that what really matters is talent and hard work, since the tools do nothing by themselves.


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## Daniel James (Aug 18, 2015)

onnevan said:


> Hi Daniel, really pleased to meet you!!!
> First of all thank you very much for your tips, some of them I already knew but they are great.
> I love Ableton because it invites me to experiment and is so "transparent", it doesn't gets in the way of making music. I have red some opinions about Ableton and how most people think is for DJing only, but I never have used it for that, instead I've made rock music and now I'm making simple "scores" for my animations and games.
> 
> ...



Anyone who says Albeton Live is only for DJ's, don't have the slightest clue what they are talking about. Try not to listen to much to people who say things with confidence of which they have no experience 

Alot of what you are talking about are specific to the libraries you use and not the DAW itself. Things like portamento are programmed into certain sample libraries. You will need to research different sample libraries which contain different articulations. And if you havnt invested already, you should definitely get Kontakt 5! You def need a sampler for your DAW.

-DJ


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 18, 2015)

A few points:

1. l am quite familiar with Live and I said that if I can't see notes on staves it is not for ME.

2. I have printed literally thousands of parts for sessions here in LA and around the world with Logic Pro With no complaints from them.

3. The bit about not being an f'ing DJ was a joke as is evidenced by the emoticon.

Oh, and in case there is ANY confusion, I ABSOLUTELY meant a DJ, someone who plays music live from CDs, computers, or vinyl, scratches, etc. not a forum member with those initials.


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## Daniel James (Aug 18, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> A few points:
> 
> 1. l am quite familiar with Live and I said that because I can't see notes on staves it is not for ME.
> 
> ...



Jay,

1. If its not for you, why did you bother to enter a thread asking for spesific help with Ableton Live? with your first remark being that Live isnt a good choice for classical techniques when we both know that any DAW that lets you edit midi can do everything you need to these days. Its just about how familiar you are with it. Its not a helpful comment. Just seems like yet another way for you to publicly voice your negative opinions on others choices again.

2. Good for you! While Logic Pro's editor has some good features, is it REALLY as functionally deep as a dedicated score editor like Sibelius. Lots of composers these days use orchestrators to get the work in front of players and if you are planning to do it yourself I think one would be much better served using dedicated software for it. 

3. When you followed up your first pointless contribution to the thread with "I'm a composer, not a fucking DJ" comment, we both know you meant it. The snide little unhelpful useless remarks in your posts really grow tiresome. If its not helpful, why bother posting it at all? 

-DJ


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## careyford (Aug 18, 2015)

And there is a plug-in for Live that does notation pretty well called http://www.computermusicnotation.com/ . It does also export midi just fine to Sibelius which I've used for transcription when I don't have time to do it by hand/ear. 

I don't know about anybody else but I knew Jay was joking. :D


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## dsmo (Aug 18, 2015)

onnevan said:


> I'm trying out Reaper now, looks good but it seems like it hasn't many instruments, even less orchestral


That's what sample libraries are for. I use precious few actual Sonar instruments. The Tuba on the TTS-1, primarily. I do use several Dimension Pro instruments, but that's a VI that comes with Sonar, and can be used also in Reaper. Primarily, I use my orchestral libraries. I look at a DAW as a vehicle. It's what you bring to it that matters most. and of course, a work flow that suits you. I'm sure it will be a struggle if I switchfrom Sonar to Reaper, but sometimes a change of scenery can have surprising results.


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## AfterInfinity (Aug 18, 2015)

It's true that Ableton was built with DJ's/electronic music production in mind. That being said, many of the common practices implemented by modern film/game music composers/sound designers have roots in electronic music. In my experience, it's also by far the best DAW for handling hardware synths and external gear. So if you make music that relies heavily on synthesis and other sound design related things (as I know many of us on this website do) Ableton really is a fantastic choice.


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## onnevan (Aug 18, 2015)

Daniel James said:


> Jay,
> 
> 1. If its not for you, why did you bother to enter a thread asking for spesific help with Ableton Live? with your first remark being that Live isnt a good choice for classical techniques when we both know that any DAW that lets you edit midi can do everything you need to these days. Its just about how familiar you are with it. Its not a helpful comment. Just seems like yet another way for you to publicly voice your negative opinions on others choices again.
> 
> ...





Daniel James said:


> Hey mate,
> 
> First off ignore all the bullshit people say that you can't write orchestral music with Ableton Live, many have not sat with it for more than 5 minutes (or at all) and are talking out their ass. Live doesn't have a score view however unless you are planning to print out all your pieces for real players there isn't much need these days and if you do there are far better dedicated pieces of software for doing so than the built in ones (I know of way more Orchestrators using Sibelius or Finale than the built in Logic Pro editor.) Albeton Live is just as capable as any other DAW in writing and producing music, it just handles things differently, in the end its all about which product gets you to the ideas in your head the fastest.
> 
> ...


I forgot to say that your answer is the guide I needed, I'm very grateful because now I have a workflow for composing and some useful info I for sure will use. Its great that a proffesional like you takes the time to help with very specific answers, and addressing every question.


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## steinmann (Aug 19, 2015)

I have been using Ableton and Logic for a few years and I have absolutely no complains about Ableton.

I understand why it gets a bad rep and in fact, I think it's missing some good features to make it a bit more composition friendly, but overall it feels really transparent, solid, light and simple. No clutter or unnecessary drop down menus. Hell, for most things there isn't even any text to read at all.

To make it even better I would include the option to select multiple MIDI clips and see their MIDI notes all together, SMPTE timecode wouldn't hurt either (It is available as a Max4Live device though), being able to detach the piano roll to see it in another screen, among other minor things.

Overall you won't be limited by the software, it does everything superbly. Choosing between Ableton or another DAW is only a matter of personal taste/workflow. That's just my opinion because I already spent thousands of hours working with it. Hope that helps!


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 19, 2015)

My final clarified thoughts, just my opinions, which ARE meant to be helpful:

Live is a terrific app but because of the lack of things I listed and Steinmann listed it is not as good a choice for orchestral style composition to picture as Logic Pro, Cubase, Digital Performer, Sonar or Reaper. For songwriting, orchestral style composition for those either not working to picture and who are not married to using a score editor, like me, it is a fine choice. And it definitely is _not_ only suitable for DJ's, which is why my _joke_ was just a _joke_. 

Before Logic Pro had Flex time, I frequently used Live with ReWire along with Logic Pro and it did a fine job, especially on one massive project where I had to add electronica to Classical recordings that obviously were not timed to a click.

None of that is surprising as it was not designed for the purpose of composing orchestral style music to picture. Of course you _can_ use it regardless. But IMHO, while you can hire a plumber who also knows how to do electrical work, you are better off with a licensed electrician for your house.

If you disagree, you disagree.


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## vicontrolu (Aug 19, 2015)

I have a lot of experience with Live. Before i writed orchestral i produced everything with it and its really great, much faster than many of the most established DAWs for some daily rutine procedures. When i started to write orchestral things became a bit more difficult to handle in Live. In my case it was mostly because of the lack of advanced midi editing features, along with the fixed keycommands, etc. There are also some basic things Live cant do as of today: grouping some groups comes to my mind first. At the end i ended up using it for sound design and using Cubase for the rest.

So..can you write orchestral with Live? Absolutely.
Is it just for DJs? Absolutely not. 
Is it the best tool for live performance? Most likely.
Is it the best tool for composing/arranging? I´d say no cause it didnt work for me but its free to try so go ahead and come to your own conclusions about it.


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## steinmann (Aug 19, 2015)

vicontrolu said:


> I have a lot of experience with Live. Before i writed orchestral i produced everything with it and its really great, much faster than many of the most established DAWs for some daily rutine procedures. When i started to write orchestral things became a bit more difficult to handle in Live. In my case it was mostly because of the lack of advanced midi editing features, along with the fixed keycommands, etc. There are also some basic things Live cant do as of today: grouping some groups comes to my mind first. At the end i ended up using it for sound design and using Cubase for the rest.
> 
> So..can you write orchestral with Live? Absolutely.
> Is it just for DJs? Absolutely not.
> ...



I followed the exact same path as you, starting with Ableton for everything, then trying orchestral composition in it and changing to a different DAW for that (The difference is I changed to Logic and not Cubase). I still use Ableton for everything except orchestral stuff and I just did that because of the missing features I listed in my previous post. It's more a personal preference thing than Ableton's fault.

Having said that, usually Ableton gets bashed for things that have nothing to do with the missing features that I said, or any other concrete reasons. People usually just say vague things like "it's terrible to sync audio" or "it's terrible to export video" or "the latency is so bad". None of that is true.


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## onnevan (Aug 19, 2015)

careyford said:


> And there is a plug-in for Live that does notation pretty well called http://www.computermusicnotation.com/ . It does also export midi just fine to Sibelius which I've used for transcription when I don't have time to do it by hand/ear.
> 
> I don't know about anybody else but I knew Jay was joking. :D


Thanks,


EastWest Lurker said:


> My final clarified thoughts, just my opinions, which ARE meant to be helpful:
> 
> Live is a terrific app but because of the lack of things I listed and Steinmann listed it is not as good a choice for orchestral style composition to picture as Logic Pro, Cubase, Digital Performer, Sonar or Reaper. For songwriting, orchestral style composition for those either not working to picture and who are not married to using a score editor, like me, it is a fine choice. And it definitely is _not_ only suitable for DJ's, which is why my _joke_ was just a _joke_.
> 
> ...


thanks for the constructive criticism, much more useful than sarcasm, albeit less funny for you I presume.


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## onnevan (Aug 19, 2015)

vicontrolu said:


> I have a lot of experience with Live. Before i writed orchestral i produced everything with it and its really great, much faster than many of the most established DAWs for some daily rutine procedures. When i started to write orchestral things became a bit more difficult to handle in Live. In my case it was mostly because of the lack of advanced midi editing features, along with the fixed keycommands, etc. There are also some basic things Live cant do as of today: grouping some groups comes to my mind first. At the end i ended up using it for sound design and using Cubase for the rest.
> 
> So..can you write orchestral with Live? Absolutely.
> Is it just for DJs? Absolutely not.
> ...


I would like to know what midi advanced editing features are you talking about, if you don't mind.


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## vicontrolu (Aug 20, 2015)

Take a look at the presets of the logical editor in Cuabse, just to name a few. Also, the way to manipulate CC data with the mouse in Cubase. Customize views, control room options, Eucon support..its really on another level.


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## InLight-Tone (Aug 20, 2015)

vicontrolu said:


> Take a look at the presets of the logical editor in Cuabse, just to name a few. Also, the way to manipulate CC data with the mouse in Cubase. Customize views, control room options, Eucon support..its really on another level.



Amen to the above and add in expression maps which I find invaluable and worth the effort in setting up. If you're looking at setting up a biggish template Live falls apart. I tried to do it and it was a nightmare. 

Sure you do have Max4Live for doing some advanced midi stuff, but it's not so easy to use as the Logical Editor and hooking it in to a button press in Lemur. The automation and midi finessing you can achieve with Cubase and Lemur is second to none.

Daniel, I'm not knocking Live at all it's a great piece of software and I think you write amazing music with it!


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## Daniel James (Aug 20, 2015)

InLight-Tone said:


> Amen to the above and add in expression maps which I find invaluable and worth the effort in setting up. If you're looking at setting up a biggish template Live falls apart. I tried to do it and it was a nightmare.
> 
> Sure you do have Max4Live for doing some advanced midi stuff, but it's not so easy to use as the Logical Editor and hooking it in to a button press in Lemur. The automation and midi finessing you can achieve with Cubase and Lemur is second to none.
> 
> Daniel, I'm not knocking Live at all it's a great piece of software and I think you write amazing music with it!



Yeah its all about picking the DAW that gels with you. hahaha trust me when I say that I fully acknowledge some of the flaws Live has....however I am so proficient with it that I can get to my ideas much faster with Live than I can with the extra features you would get from another DAW. I was more pointing out the fact that you can absolutely make large orchestral project with Live with no real problem, and that its not only for DJ's as has been spewed here a few times. 

Haha so many people get hung up on how a certain DAW was designed and dont stop to think how those specific features will benefit them. Anyone who has heard my music knows I like to manipulate audio as a part of my sound....funny how powerfully useful those "DJ" features come in handy all of a sudden. 

-DJ


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 20, 2015)

The only one who said it was only for DJ's was me, and it was a joke as I clarified later and expanded on what my views of Live is and is not.

And clearly Live is well suited for the kind of music you produce so if somebody likes your music, then maybe they should indeed follow your lead.


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## vicontrolu (Aug 21, 2015)

Daniel James said:


> Haha so many people get hung up on how a certain DAW was designed and dont stop to think how those specific features will benefit them.



Dude, its not that we think Expression maps in Cubase will benefit us. Its just that after trying them there´s no possible roll back. I´d spent countless minutes of scrolling in Live (specially since you cant group group tracks) to find the desired track/articulation. So, at the end, Cubase makes it faster for me FOR ORCHESTRAL STUFF. 

There are demo versions for basically every DAW. Try them all!


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