# Do you mix&master your own tracks? What plugins? +K10U



## passsacaglia (Jan 7, 2017)

As the title says, do You master (and mix) your own tracks?

I am not a newbie but not That well learned in exactly what effects to put on single tracks and the master output. I rarely "master" my tracks, trying to mix them mostly making it good balance between the elements and seperating them with panning and volume as best as I can.

My main problems: it always sound a bit mashy, eq'ing all the low end if I have many synths or low brass/strings with OK results. Using Logic Pro X and trying to learn their stock plugins because it would be fun and a challange to learn it myself.

So: What do you usually use in your mixes and Why? For example put a compression on the high strings or on the piano melody in a line. Some guy showed me some tips and whoom my mix sounds So much better and cleaner. 
Have watched zillions of tutorials but they are mostly pop, rnb, rock and EDM, not that much classical and somehow I feel that the stuff they do are difficult to apply on my instrument. 

So, what made You become better in your mixes? What plugins (stock and extra) do you use on What tracks and why - any good tutorials you've found? 
I just bought Komplete 10 Ultimate which includes a lot of good stuff people using for mixing and mastering which would be nice to use!
I have a good ear and know when it sounds perfect, but really don't know How to exactly get there.
So are there any "3 rules" to Always do on a track (except remove bad freq, eq it good and remove sub bass) like "yeah I always add a compressor" kind of thing or, what should be lower, panned L or R and what instruments/sounds should be glued together. And are there any good mastering tools someone here uses from their Komplete Ultimate pack?

Best regards and appreciate all tips!!!


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## Andrajas (Jan 7, 2017)

I'm not a master on mixing/mastering but I think recently my mixes has become much better since I do think a lot different when it comes to these things nowadays. I do mix and master myself, I do however sometimes send my mixes to a master engineer. I think its good to do both. 

What I've learned recently is that: Balance and arrangement is key to get a good mix! If you don't have this its going to be really hard to mix it, atleast in my little experience. 

I never apply same things on every song I do. Different arrangement acquires different approach. Cutting all low end everytime is something that's not working for me. I try to instead give the instruments different roles and go from there, as I said, Balance is so important! 

As for plugins, If I for example want a warmer string sound, I love using Decapitator by Soundtoys. If I want a synth sound to be aggressive, I like also to use Decapitator. I think that plugin is very flexible! I recently bought the Everything Bundle by Slate Digital and I have to say my mixes has improved since then. I think these plugin made me listen even more on the changes I made and always think "Does it sound better"? "Why did I apply this plugin"? For example, when EQing, just listen to the changes rather then go by a "graph" and you will get a better result. 

Produce Like a Pro has some great tutorials and I really like them! You will learn a lot there. 

A good rule would be (don't remember where I heard this) this quote:
Good musician + good instrument+ good performance + good acoustics + good mic + good placement = Good sound


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## WhiteNoiz (Jan 7, 2017)

I think I'd watched a video with Owsinski or something some time ago and he was actually figuring out which note in the bass line was conflicting frequency-wise, then looking at the frequency chart to find its exact range and apply a surginal EQ at that region to make it sit tight. Now I think I shouldn't pretend to mix and/or master by myself but rather do my best and what I feel like, with whatever I can reach for.

Having a good source always helps. And that mostly comes before actually "producing".

Maybe this will be of help:
http://vi-control.net/community/threads/any-blog-youtube-channel-suggestions.47813

I'd shared some of my process here: http://vi-control.net/community/threads/moving-brass-to-the-back-of-the-room-without-reverb.57506/

I also used to watch "The Recording Revolution" on YouTube. Dunno, look around for general advice/interviews/tricks (e.g., EQs that auto-compensate the overall gain, so you know more easily what you're doing, reverb tricks, auto phase-alligning tools)/tutorials and see what you can apply. You'll find some principles; from there it's up to you.

For example, I'd found this really useful for general principles of compression:


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## storyteller (Jan 7, 2017)

WhiteNoiz said:


> I think I'd watched a video with Owsinski or something some time ago and he was actually figuring out which note in the bass line was conflicting frequency-wise, then looking at the frequency chart to find its exact range and apply a surginal EQ at that region to make it sit tight.


Also for @passsacaglia - I can't recommend Izotope Neutron enough here. There is an industry-first feature that will compare two tracks and heat map conflicting frequencies so you can notch out the problem (or even side chain dynamic EQ). Though Izotope's holiday sale was supposed to end yesterday January 6th, it is still available on AudioDeluxe as I write this. If you buy Trash 2 to get the loyalty discount on Neutron, it is $113 out the door (for both Neutron & Trash 2) for a plugin that is newly released and retails for $249. If you are feeling fancy, the entire Production Bundle can be had for around $250 including Ozone 7 ADV, Nectar, etc. I personally didn't have a need for those as I use alternatives that I prefer, but those tools are phenomenal too if you haven't begun to establish your final chain. From what I understand, izotope does sales from time to time, but their biggest sales that a product will ever have occur in-and-around a products launch period (e.g. Neutron was just released).

EDIT: Also, you mentioned K10U. The vintage comps and RC24/48 reverbs are really really great and see a lot of use in appropriate context.


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## Vin (Jan 7, 2017)

You might find this post helpful: https://forums.envato.com/t/trouble-with-mastering-mixing/77780/11

Here's a good strings treatment video from CineSamples:



Not specifically for orchestral mixing, but the best book on mixing I've ever read: http://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/mixing-secrets-small-studio


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## passsacaglia (Jan 7, 2017)

Wow! Wasn't expecting all this!
Guys thank u! Will reply more soon, at the gym atm, but yes I was first into Audiodeluxe and wondered if I'd buy Ozone7 elements but felt like Why? When I can obtain some of the results my myself and other plugins (stock, free and cheap ones) for mastering.
But yes I did the Trash2 bundle buy with the DDelay and the expansions - Will def check the Neutron thing!

brb ! 

/D man


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## passsacaglia (Jan 7, 2017)

ps. 
but for 99 the O7 elements seems promising tho, mix it good with good eq and then bam - elements for a "solid" master. Althi Logic pro and K10U plus freebies could do the job too. But for easy way out Elements could be something for fast n quick final masters.. Will be right back after Iv checked all!


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## URL (Jan 7, 2017)

Check This Out, his mixing skills is top notch and very interesting to learn everything from, EQ, Compressor, Rverb...
And it is free
http://www.pensadosplace.tv/category/into-the-lair/

Cheers


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## passsacaglia (Jan 7, 2017)

storyteller said:


> Also for @passsacaglia - I can't recommend Izotope Neutron enough here. There is an industry-first feature that will compare two tracks and heat map conflicting frequencies so you can notch out the problem (or even side chain dynamic EQ). Though Izotope's holiday sale was supposed to end yesterday January 6th, it is still available on AudioDeluxe as I write this. If you buy Trash 2 to get the loyalty discount on Neutron, it is $113 out the door (for both Neutron & Trash 2) for a plugin that is newly released and retails for $249. If you are feeling fancy, the entire Production Bundle can be had for around $250 including Ozone 7 ADV, Nectar, etc. I personally didn't have a need for those as I use alternatives that I prefer, but those tools are phenomenal too if you haven't begun to establish your final chain. From what I understand, izotope does sales from time to time, but their biggest sales that a product will ever have occur in-and-around a products launch period (e.g. Neutron was just released).
> 
> EDIT: Also, you mentioned K10U. The vintage comps and RC24/48 reverbs are really really great and see a lot of use in appropriate context.



Did you mean this one? 
I bought the Trash2 bundle with exp. +DDlay says 149 for crossgrade buy 113 was obly if I bought them together?

https://www.audiodeluxe.com/products/izotope-neutron-advanced-crossgrade


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## storyteller (Jan 7, 2017)

passsacaglia said:


> Did you mean this one?
> I bought the Trash2 bundle with exp. +DDlay says 149 for crossgrade buy 113 was obly if I bought them together?
> 
> https://www.audiodeluxe.com/products/izotope-neutron-advanced-crossgrade


Regular Neutron cross grade is $99 ($88 in cart). That's the advanced version which is the same as the standard version but adds surround capability if you need that. The advanced version also gives you the components of Neutron in separate plugins. Everything else is the same plugin for plugin.

Standard is here: https://www.audiodeluxe.com/products/izotope-neutron-crossgrade


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## amsams (Jan 7, 2017)

I'm a big fan of Fab Filter's Q2. Simply put, mixing with plugs is half eq, half compression. The rest is placement/panning and getting your levels right. 

Depending on your samples reverb, saturation, etc. is all polish at the end. The main thing is getting really good @ eq (removing problem frequencies) and compression (to even out/tame). The rest will come after getting those fundamentals. 

Watch the tutorials on Fab Filter's site. You can learn a lot there. I did.


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## Minko (Jan 7, 2017)

Hi Guys,

Great thread. I’ve been wondering what do to lately regarding the mixing and mastering. Normally I deliver stems to the dubbing mixer on projects, but now I’m writing for myself more. So music without pictures. I also agree that there is not so much to find for orchestral music.

I will be reading all your suggestions and links the coming days.

But I wanted to share my proces in learning to mix so this can help you. This goes a bit against your question. But hear me out (you will have something in my mix commandments that you could use).

Couple of years ago I got a call from a dubbing mixer asking me if I was sure I uploaded all the stems. He was missing lows in the music. This was before the final dub so I had some time to bring everything with me. I ended up writing low parts and taking these with me and made the resolution to start learning to mix.

I did a couple of things. First I started mixing other people their music. In completely other genres of what I write. I was helping friends out and learning in the proces. I also booked mixes with mix engineers and worked together towards the end mix. I attended mastering sessions of my mixes and other peoples mixes. I watched a lot of videos and did a lot of practise mixes. My mixes are better. I feel I trust myself more. But I don’t consider myself a mix engineer. In other words, don't think I'm really good at this.

There is a lot of free stuf tutorial wise. And a lot is not on orchestral and film music. Dave Pensado is great but I recommend PureMix.net. Again this is not so much “our” kind of music (whatever that is exactly).

Plugins are almost all good these days. So I will not list my 5 goto eq’s or 8 compressors you need to own. It’s handy to have good reverbs though. If you want to invest. Invest in good writing / orchestration (I know you already do) . Start with this and the mixing will become much easier.

The main things I’ve learned have become _*Minko’s Mix *_*Commandments* hope these help you and our other friends. It’s my “recipe” to help me not get lost.

1) Listen for the first time with a note pad and note everything you would like to change or that you really like. You never have the change to hear it again for the first time! (This is a little bit different when mixing your own music).
*
2) Never mix without reference mixes!*

3) Decide where you want to go with the mix.

4) Clean everything (and name all the tracks, mark all the parts of the song etc).

5) When mixing: Listen for 3/4 seconds. Stop. Think. Alter. Listen. Stop. Evalute. Repeat proces if needed. (That was a real eye opener for me). Listening for a section of the song gets me singing or humming along. There is a time for that. But when you you are mixing. You should be making decisions. Added plusses are that you hone your evaluation skills and don't overstress your ears.

6) Don't let volume fool you. Louder is better. So when evaluating. Evaulate at the right levels.

There is one big problem for us. We have been living with the composition for a long time so we got used to it. So to battle this I just write. Do some production mixing along the way. Let it be for a while and start really mixing after my arrangement is ready. One thing that helped me here is putting EQ on my stems. I also use a spectrum analyser plug in to double check things and also have a plug in to check the stereo image.

Hope this helps you in your quest!

I was wondering if people send their tracks to a mixer what their projects look like. Like 180 separate tracks or a couple of stems etc.


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## passsacaglia (Jan 7, 2017)

@storyteller does anyone know for how long the sale is?? 
Feels Neutron is a great tool to have for that money!! U think I should hit it??
It's like a master chain kind of like Ozone in one plugin right? EQ, comp, comp, exciter and limiter?


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## storyteller (Jan 7, 2017)

passsacaglia said:


> @storyteller does anyone know for how long the sale is??
> Feels Neutron is a great tool to have for that money!! U think I should hit it??
> It's like a master chain kind of like Ozone in one plugin right? EQ, comp, comp, exciter and limiter?


I demoed it on a project I had mixed this week and the difference was night and day with what it helped me clean up. I immediately bought it after hearing the new mix. I'd recommend hopping on it immediately - even for the EQ or transient shaper alone! I see it becoming part of my standard fx chain for all tracks and also part of my mastering chain. It has many of the features of Ozone 7 with the notable exception of Ozone 7's new IRC IV maximizer/limiter algorithm (IRC ll, II, and Hard are all in Neutron) and specific mastering tools like the stereo imager (other options exist so that isn't a deal breaker). The sale was supposed to end on the 6th, so I'm not sure what to tell you on how quickly to buy it. I'd hit it immediately though. I already did.

Trash 2 is fun, eh? I played around with it for quite a while last night. It seemed like an awesome stocking-stuffer that came with the purchase of Neutron.


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## passsacaglia (Jan 7, 2017)

Bam!! You really convinced me - bought. Will start from there and learn the mixing too ofc. But need a tool for quick good mixes - the rest Neutron can't do I'll just fix with reverb and good panning and some extra EQ if needed, but I really think that was something I'll be needing in the future for quick mixes to send out to people with my music and letting it sound good and- save some time.

Will get back with more feedback on your feedback everyone! Thanks so far!!


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## Joram (Jan 17, 2017)

Mixing is not something you learn quickly. And there's no tool for that. The mix engineers I admire have decades of experience. Not only in mixing but in listening to music and to people they work with and for. There is no shortcut.

However, I think it is important that composers and writers are able to set up a good working mix as it helps a lot with arranging, choosing samples and articulation and eventually in preparing recording sessions.

Ok, a few tips:
- keep it simple: you don't need to eq, compress and saturate everything. You probably don't need more than 3-4 reverbs. You don't need the latest plugins. You will be amazed how few plugins and fx are used by pro mixers.
- keep it effective: listen carefully but without focusing on specific sounds, make notes before just turning knobs, try to make the best mix you can with level and panning first, don't work to long on a mix and take regular breaks.
- cooperate with others: can't say that enough. Ask somebody else to work with you on you synth-programming skills, on arranging, on writing and .... on mixing. Although fora are super useful and instruction videos too, invite people in your studio and let them have a listen. Discuss you ideas and thoughts with them. You probably learn a lot and the quality of your work will increase rapidly.



Minko said:


> There is one big problem for us. We have been living with the composition for a long time so we got used to it.


Indeed. And that is why it is always good to have somebody else listen to your work.



Minko said:


> I was wondering if people send their tracks to a mixer what their projects look like. Like 180 separate tracks or a couple of stems etc.


Give it a try, Minko  btw: sending 180 tracks is often a bit much (at least: if you are not doing feature films). It is much better to send submixed stems per instrument group. For instance: seperate strings sections of 2-3 libraries or articulations and then all instrument sections seperated (not everyindividual instrument!), most percussion and synths on their own stereotrack. Something between 25 and 100 tracks should be possible.


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## mc_deli (Jan 17, 2017)

Rule 1. Reference tracks
Rule 2. Reference tracks
Rule 3. Reference tracks

And listening on multiple sources, not loud... Keep turning down... Did I mention reference tracks?


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## Joram (Jan 17, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> Rule 1. Reference tracks
> Rule 2. Reference tracks
> Rule 3. Reference tracks
> 
> And listening on multiple sources, not loud... Keep turning down... Did I mention reference tracks?


Yes and no. Reference tracks are useful but don't be afraid to make your own recognizable sound.


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## Tysmall (Jan 17, 2017)

The most impactful lesson I have learned to date is not to do something just to do it. You don't need a compressor on every bus, you don't need reverb on every instrument. You should only fix problems not add new ones.

People are slapping 3 reverbs on spitfire's already wet products because Jake Jackson said he did it for one mix, and then people are wondering why their mixes sound watery and muddy.

A vulgar yet appropriate analogy is to think with your brain, not with your dick. Swinging your expensive compressor plugins around looks cool in your daw, but won't translate if you're not actually doing something with them.


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## John Busby (Jan 17, 2017)

Joram said:


> Yes and no. Reference tracks are useful but don't be afraid to make your own recognizable sound.


imo it's not so much a recognizable sound when mixing, to me that comes with the writing/orchestration.
and it's not about trying to immitate someone elses mix - the reference tracks are just to do some intentional listening to dissect pro mixes and get a feel for what a finished polished master sounds like and to compare for final volume


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## Tysmall (Jan 17, 2017)

johnbusbymusic said:


> imo it's not so much a recognizable sound when mixing, to me that comes with the writing/orchestration.



I instantly recognize anything mixed by Sia's mix engineer. Or when Vanic got signed to a label and he didn't mix/master his own songs, they lost their magic to me. You're squashing an entire art form with this sentence. Reference tracks are good for gain staging, after that I don't see a point. It's easy to copy down someone else's math problem, look through the steps to get the same answer and call it yours.

Look at how insanely famous xxxtentacion is getting off of his music. His style is recognizable and people like him for it, even if it's purposely breaking every rule in the production book. I doubt he was looking at Drake's new album to make sure his hats sounded right.

DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS AROUND YOUR KIDS OR IN YOUR WORKPLACE: (unless you work from home)


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## mc_deli (Jan 17, 2017)

Reference tracks are good - no, essential - for beginners. That's the point.

The less knowledge and experience about the genre (remember lots of genre hopping library mixing here), the less you know your system/room, the less confident your are about mixing decisions, the more useful reference tracks become.

And of course it's not about referencing/copying creative content. It's about frequency balance, loudness, self-mastering, and (especially with orch VIs if you are going for realism) tone, placement, image etc.


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## jcrosby (Jan 17, 2017)

passsacaglia said:


> As the title says, do You master (and mix) your own tracks?
> 
> I am not a newbie but not That well learned in exactly what effects to put on single tracks and the master output. I rarely "master" my tracks, trying to mix them mostly making it good balance between the elements and seperating them with panning and volume as best as I can.
> 
> ...


Two things I would recommend as great learning resources without getting stuck in a youtube/forum spiral....Magic A-B and Izotope Neutron. (EDIT: Looks like I'm late to the Neutron Party )

Magic A-B makes referencing quick without getting in between your workflow. You put it on the master, or any buss and flip back and forth between your track and the reference. Being able to switch back and forth quickly is useful because our ears re-adpat quickly. With an immediate comparison you start to be able to hear the frequency ranges where things sound imbalanced. 

Neutron is a pretty great little channel strip with some great 'teaching' tools built into it... (That's a big part of why Izotope developed it). It also has a few tools to see and address where frequencies are colliding between tracks. The really useful feature for someone still trying to learn some rudimentary mixing techniques is called Track Assistant. It analyzes to your audio, determines what kind of instrument it is, and adjusts itself to set some basic safe parameters that generally help improve clarity, but subtly...

And spend a day listening and buying tracks that are not only well mixed examples of what you're going for, but have sections where instruments are playing mostly by themselves, or are fairly sparse. It's easier to pick out the elements in a sparse mix when you're still learning 'how' to listen to a reference.


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## pixel (Jan 18, 2017)

Reference track is highly recommended and used even by advanced sound engineers so I don't know why it should not be used for non experienced composer. It's actually really good idea to make good balance of low/mid/hi frequency spectrum and stereo width.
It's not about copying 1:1 someone else work. It's just reference because our ears easily adopt to what we listen which can lead to easily overdo low/mid/hi freqs not to mention not ideal monitors/room situation.


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## Arbee (Jan 18, 2017)

I'm not great at this, but slowly getting better I hope. For what's it's worth this is my approach:

I use 3-4 reference tracks that I admire and respect and that align with what I'm trying to achieve, each with a slightly different emphasis.
I ruthlessly delete anything from the track that's not adding, just muddying.
Not saying you should, but I keep a multiband compressor on the master fader while recording and mixing so I can get a sense of how mastering will glue it together later. Helps me spot problem areas.
I try to EQ bottom end really carefully to tease loudness out of the track rather than bludgeon it at the end with a limiter.
I try not to be too timid (a hard lesson). Once you're sure your arrangement isn't at fault, if it sounds right do it.
A hard one to admit, but I use a frequency analyser to check I'm in the ball park and spot anything my ears may be missing by getting too close to the track.
I'm using Neutron (and Ozone 7 for mastering) these days, but sometimes just for ideas.
Plenty of "put it away for a day or two and come back" if I can afford the time.
I have used the LANDR robot on some tracks to help guide me in the right mastering direction.
I listen and learn from every tutorial I can get my hands on.
I listen on as many different speakers (and headphones) as I can find before I commit.
I try to know what I got wrong last time so I have a better chance of getting better.
Sounds like waffle when I read it back, but my 2 cents anyway.....


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## Joram (Jan 18, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> Reference tracks are good - no, essential - for beginners. That's the point.
> 
> The less knowledge and experience about the genre (remember lots of genre hopping library mixing here), the less you know your system/room, the less confident your are about mixing decisions, the more useful reference tracks become.


I agree with you. It is indeed essential to listen to reference tracks in the learning phase. And since I am always learning I also agree with the below.



pixel said:


> Reference track is highly recommended and used even by advanced sound engineers so I don't know why it should not be used for non experienced composer. It's actually really good idea to make good balance of low/mid/hi frequency spectrum and stereo width.


Of course we learn from our predecessors and colleagues all the time. The sound created should fit the technical requirements and the way people listen to music.

But I hear quite a lot of trailer- and film music that lacks personality. Sometimes it has to do with skill, creativity or talent of the composer him- or herself, sometimes it is the time and budget the composer gets from the client, it could be the mix that is not well performed or it is the director who covers-up a good score. 

I think that the most interesting pieces of music in any style of genre are the pieces that have a certain unmistakable personality and are easily recognised. Therefore, there should be a moment that you leave references and go your own way.


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## TIM_STEVE_97 (Jan 18, 2017)

Mix and Master to my experience don't go together. 
i.e it cannot be done by one person.. and should not..
But in the case of uploading for sharing to friends and fam a great mix can be thought of as a master..


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## pixel (Jan 18, 2017)

Joram said:


> But I hear quite a lot of trailer- and film music that lacks personality. Sometimes it has to do with skill, creativity or talent of the composer him- or herself, sometimes it is the time and budget the composer gets from the client, it could be the mix that is not well performed or it is the director who covers-up a good score.



I see it in almost every genre (all that I'm deep into). I think that comparing reference mix is the last thing that have anything to do with it. It all begin with people who want to duplicate everything from their favorite tracks. On forums I've seen never ending list of topics like: 'how to make this bass/drums/kick/synth/lead...' and even more ridiculous like 'how looks scheme for arrangement in X music style'. That's why some genres have one type of arrangement with same amount of bars in every section, not to mention same type of bass and even same bass notes. 
I know that some people simply want to become superstar in 5 minutes but it did not explain such big amount of music 'without personal touch'. Maybe people are scared that if they follow their own patch then they have no chance for success (where actually it's the best way for success). 
I know that to few things that I've did 10 years ago people reacted with 'meh' and now same things are used in mainstream music. I can guess that it may discourage a lot of people. 
I've been eyewitness where when guys showcase their demos people were totally negative to anything original in their music. Negative feedback just because something is done other way that popular artists do is on daily basis. Then few years later you can see successful artist who gain popularity because s/he used the same technique. Look: Benny Benassi. It's also the reason why I quit uploading my demos


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## mc_deli (Jan 18, 2017)

Agreed. But surely you get the point that using mix references is not the same as copying creative elements, no?


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## jcrosby (Jan 19, 2017)

Joram said:


> But I hear quite a lot of trailer- and film music that lacks personality. Sometimes it has to do with skill, creativity or talent of the composer him- or herself, sometimes it is the time and budget the composer gets from the client, it could be the mix that is not well performed or it is the director who covers-up a good score.



Sure, but that has nothing to do with a reference mix and everything to do with the composer copying someone else's style...

A reference mix is simply a utility to check the spectral balance of your lows, mids, and highs against an equally viable track. A good refernce doesn't even have to sound like your track as far as the arrangement goes, it just needs to sound nicely balanced, well mixed, and appropriate as a point of reference.

I've never met an engineer who doesn't start their day in the studio just listening to a little music. Not only does it calibrate your ears, it reminds you why you do what you love... It's like brushing your teeth...


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## Joram (Jan 19, 2017)

jcrosby said:


> Sure, but that has nothing to do with a reference mix and everything to do with the composer copying someone else's style...
> 
> A reference mix is simply a utility to check the spectral balance of your lows, mids, and highs against an equally viable track. A good refernce doesn't even have to sound like your track as far as the arrangement goes, it just needs to sound nicely balanced, well mixed, and appropriate as a point of reference.


Of course it depends on what, how and when you use a reference track. Keep in mind that the spectral balance has a lot to do with instrumentation and levels. And that's why I thought it was good to mention it in this connection.


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