# Jacob Shea’s career advice



## ka00 (Mar 24, 2019)

This seems like the best advice anyone under 25, without kids and a mortgage could hear about how to work as a film composer. There’s even a shout-out to vi-control:


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## Mike Greene (Mar 24, 2019)

Before taking an internship with Hans, Jacob worked as an assistant here. (Before Realitone, back when I was composing full time.) It was a cut in pay to go work for Hans, and the truth is that most interns there do not realize fame and fortune (a lot of "weeding out" occurs), so there was definitely risk in the move. But for the reasons he talks about in the video, it was a no-brainer and proof of how serious he was about pursuing this as a career. Jacob's a great guy and I'm so happy that he's found such success.


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## AllanH (Mar 25, 2019)

I really enjoyed this interview and the one he did with Spitfire around the time of planet earth. He is clearly a talented composer and seems genuinely kind and generous with his time.


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## Alex Fraser (Mar 25, 2019)

It definitely reinforces the idea that if you want a career in film composing, you'd better go for it whilst you're young with no commitments. Sounds reasonable.


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## FriFlo (Mar 25, 2019)

I must say, I find it really sad, that the more time passes, composers keep telling you more and more, being a film music composer is not really about being a good composer ... it is more about opressing your ego an personality up to the point that you probably forget who you are and nurture you relationships with some pathetic people in the film business, who actually should rather seek a psychiatrist (my interpretation of what he said, to be honest!).
I guess, there have always been those people in important positions in the film business, who did not lack ego, but missed any kind of professional judgement. But I think, those numbers have grown quite a bit in our times. We have just grown used to the fact, that it is kind of normal to see people acquiring power and/or money without any kind of competence that makes it feel like they deserved it. Our times are more then ever filled with those folks, I am afraid.


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## AdamKmusic (Mar 25, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> I must say, I find it really sad, that the more time passes, composers keep telling you more and more, being a film music composer is not really about being a good composer ... it is more about opressing your ego an personality up to the point that you probably forget who you are and nurture you relationships with some pathetic people in the film business, who actually should rather seek a psychiatrist (my interpretation of what he said, to be honest!).
> I guess, there have always been those people in important positions in the film business, who did not lack ego, but missed any kind of professional judgement. But I think, those numbers have grown quite a bit in our times. We have just grown used to the fact, that it is kind of normal to see people acquiring power and/or money without any kind of competence that makes it feel like they deserved it. Our times are more then ever filled with those folks, I am afraid.



I find a lot of people do say that but I think there becomes where someones ego might come back. Or maybe ego is the wrong word, people will respect your opinions/thoughts more. Whereas when you're starting you have to sort of please everyone so you can build up your contacts and get a name for yourself as someone who works well with other people etc


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## dannymc (Mar 25, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> I must say, I find it really sad, that the more time passes, composers keep telling you more and more, being a film music composer is not really about being a good composer ... it is more about opressing your ego an personality up to the point that you probably forget who you are and nurture you relationships with some pathetic people in the film business, who actually should rather seek a psychiatrist (my interpretation of what he said, to be honest!).
> I guess, there have always been those people in important positions in the film business, who did not lack ego, but missed any kind of professional judgement. But I think, those numbers have grown quite a bit in our times. We have just grown used to the fact, that it is kind of normal to see people acquiring power and/or money without any kind of competence that makes it feel like they deserved it. Our times are more then ever filled with those folks, I am afraid.



but why do you find it sad? i think its a case of just realizing we are not at the top of the food chain when it comes to the movie business and mostly the composer is there to serve the vision of others. imo its a positive that film music is getting the recognition it is and seems to be at a high point in popularity at the moment. i think it would be alot worse if we ever got to a point were film composers were not considered at all in bringing a story to life and the creators instead opted to just use temp scores or library music or even eventually A.I.

if you want to be an artist we composers could also go the route of the likes of Max Richter and Olafur Arnalds. there's nothing stopping you if you cant swallow the realities of the film & tv business.

Danny


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## FriFlo (Mar 25, 2019)

AdamKmusic said:


> I find a lot of people do say that but I think there becomes where someones ego might come back. Or maybe ego is the wrong word, people will respect your opinions/thoughts more. Whereas when you're starting you have to sort of please everyone so you can build up your contacts and get a name for yourself as someone who works well with other people etc


It is of course futile to discuss this without exactly knowing from an individual case where someone is taking back his/her ego and where he/she might demand being taken serious as a strong creative voice for the creation of a film. Of course there are cases, where a composer might be overwhelmed by his ego and therefore not be able to work within a film, which is a collaborative art form. There are two very distinguishable types of people working these positions (the same goes for directors and other important positions as well). There are those who do everything with a strong service aspect in mind. If you follow though with this philosophy, it is not wise to invest to much emotionally into anything, because that might destroy you.
The other extreme is a composer who thinks it is his job to do the music. The director may say what he thinks he needs, but ultimately it is the composers job to decide. There is a one example of one composer who entirely worked like that and I can mention his name, as he is already dead: It is Bernard Herrmann. You can clearly see he was like that from countless interviews and testimonials. He famously scored the shower scene for Psycho despite Hitchcock wanting this scene without music.
I am not saying any composer can or should be like Herrmann! But I do find, that todays composers really lack composers of that spirit.


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## FriFlo (Mar 25, 2019)

dannymc said:


> but why do you find it sad? i think its a case of just realizing we are not at the top of the food chain when it comes to the movie business and mostly the composer is there to serve the vision of others.


Because I don't think that is true. If you merely try to enforce someones else's wishes or visions, you will never create art. That does not mean, if you do everything will be great. But from time to time, there will be truly great pictures. Some will be truly great although certain aspects (like the music) are not stellar - just acceptable. The chances of a movie becoming exceptional rise with its single parts being exceptional. A composer giving in to the idea of service fully, will never create exceptional music IMO.


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## ka00 (Mar 25, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> I must say, I find it really sad, that the more time passes, composers keep telling you more and more, being a film music composer is not really about being a good composer



Okay, my reply is possibly going to be very controversial as I've never worked professionally as a composer, so take this with a grain of salt, but what I took away from this video is that to work as a Hollywood film composer you need to:

1. Have no dependents or major financial obligations initially, and be willing to spend your 20s earning very little while you try to advance your career to the next phase.

2. While still young, get good at composing, but don't think you need to be Beethoven, because creating an amazing and ornate standalone piece of music is not quite what's called for.

3. Be outgoing and resourceful enough to connect with and convince a composer who is busy working in the industry that you'd be a good assistant.

4. (Now that you got the assistant gig) be a great assistant; solve problems for your composer, be pleasant and nice to be around, work long hours, write music for the composer as needed to show you can and can be reliable and work under deadlines.

5. While in the room, pay attention to how this composer operates, deals with people, handles pressure, handles crucial conversations, handles business deals, etc.

6. Hope the composer is too busy to do a particular project or two and which they aren't going to turn down but are going to get you to write and they will critique and approve and probably you will be a ghostwriter and they will be credited, but hey, you're making progress.

7. Now maybe you'll get an opportunity to be a credited co-writer with that composer and you're now building some verifiable IMDB credits and are essentially being vouched for and vetted by the big time composer, graduating to composing under your own name.

8. Finally, work directly with clients (directors, producers, studio, etc) and be a joy and pleasure to work with, interpret what they're asking of you, etc. Be charming, work to tight deadlines, etc.

9. Now that you are a name on a list of working composers always take the jobs that you're offered, or else they'll just go to someone else (who'll potentially be farming it out to their apprentices if they're to busy themselves), and if you can't handle the work load, well, it's time you got your own assistants to help you too. And the cycle continues.

I'm thinking if you don't follow these steps or have problems doing any of them (because it doesn't match your personality, your age, your financial needs, your geographical location, and any other life situation perhaps...), or if anything else is preventing you from doing these things, you should find another outlet for your music and another way to make money then aiming for A-list film projects.

I could be totally off, so the real pros (or their assistants) can chime in.


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## JohnG (Mar 25, 2019)

I am not sure what else people expect?

I'd still rather spend my days writing music than doing a lot of other jobs.

The client service aspect is not really that different from any other high-paying service job in many respects -- law partners, senior bankers, accounting professionals, even IT guys have many of the same issues. Being able to actually do the job is certainly indispensable and certainly people respond to good work. But, as @ka00 writes above, if you're not "a joy and pleasure to work with" then they will find someone who is. 

Producers routinely risk over $100 million -- and their careers -- when they make a movie or a game. Why would they work with someone who can't demonstrably execute and be fun to work with as well?

Artistically life as a composer varies a lot, as anyone can see. There is once in a blue moon something like "Arrival" but not all that often. A lot of filmed entertainment (tv and movies) aim for audiences that just want a little diversion from their struggles and, maybe if we're lucky, tell an engaging story with believable characters. 

Sometimes they actually want a real theme, sometimes just a pulse.


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 25, 2019)

Stuff like “Arrival” is on the artistic/creative side of scoring fence? I mean, all that stuff sounds just as cut up and pushed around by directors/producers to me. It just doesn’t sound so “Remote Control” or whatever. John is right. If you had $100M and your grandkids future wrapped up in a movie you would be crazy to take any risks that you don’t have to.


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## FriFlo (Mar 25, 2019)

ka00 said:


> Okay, my reply is possibly going to be very controversial as I've never worked professionally as a composer, so take this with a grain of salt, but what I took away from this video is that to work as a Hollywood film composer you need to:
> 
> 1. Have no dependents or major financial obligations initially, and be willing to spend your 20s earning very little while you try to advance your career to the next phase.
> 
> ...


There is no doubt, that this list describes very well how to get a chance of becoming successful these days. But it reads to me like a "how to become a perfect soldier".
Maybe it is just me, but to me this is to much focused on the service attitude, which is how most of the "business" today works. It leaves aside an honest artistic relationship between director and composer. I am aware that there were no "golden times" where this attitude ever was the norm. Yet, I find it quite uninspiring to strive for that kind of a relationship with another artist. There are of course two sides to this and you will probably fail, if you only allow for that kind of artistic relationships which are rare ... I would just hope for a more idealistic advice coming from successful composers asked in an interview. Call me naive ...


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## JohnG (Mar 25, 2019)

Who says there is no collaboration, or that it's not artistic?

*It's Always Been Like This*

If they hire someone to paint a mural in a church, there are boundaries about what's going to be successful and allowable. Those are going to be determined in a conversation between the artist and the church officials. I mean, of course it is! But that doesn't mean that you're just a paint-by-numbers artist. There are oceans of possibilities; everyone from Donatello to Caravaggio to Leonardo found a way to create genius work while still hewing to the religiously acceptable.

I am not sure what kind of free reign anyone expects in life? On some jobs, I have latitude to express candid, surprising, and personal feelings in the music. On others, a lot less. So what? I like writing music more than, say, adding up numbers or talking about real estate. Some people can talk about house decorating all day -- I can't and wouldn't like it.

On the other hand, I like all kinds of sound, from the bombastic to the driving to delicate and unmeasured-sounding. I like pop songs, funny songs, serious songs; and I like Buxtehude and Arvo Part and Jerry Goldsmith. And some pretty out-there quarter tone and out-of-tune rock songs sung by people who sound crazy and other off-the-rails stuff.

*It's Not That Bad*

The great thing is that even the most cautious producers actually want something cool for their movie or game, so you have to dig around within the constraints and try to do something _you_ think rocks.



givemenoughrope said:


> Stuff like “Arrival” is on the artistic/creative side of scoring fence?



Sure it is.

I think that if you're spending $200 mm or whatever that movie cost, using a score like the one poor Mr. Johannsson wrote is daring. Many producers would instead have insisted on a retread of some other space / alien / superhero movie score.

Maybe you didn't like the music as it appeared in the movie (by contrast with what's on the CD)? I haven't compared so I don't know the difference really; saw the movie once and enjoyed it.


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## Wally Garten (Mar 25, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> There is no doubt, that this list describes very well how to get a chance of becoming successful these days. But it reads to me like a "how to become a perfect soldier".



I mean, that's not the only way. It might not even be the best way to become a truly A-list composer, any more than becoming a production assistant on other people's films is actually the best way to become an A-list director, online career advice for filmmakers notwithstanding. Becoming a production assistant is a good way to become an assistant director or production coordinator. The way to become an A-list director is to _direct stuff_ -- short films, music videos, ads, indie low-budgets, etc. Hopefully it's stuff that people really like. Even in those gigs, though, you're often serving a master. The trick is to maintain your voice while giving people something they can use. (A great example is Spike Jonze, who started out directing music videos. No doubt he had to come up with ideas that would make the bands and the record labels happy -- but a Spike Jonze music video is still the furthest possible thing from bland corporate product. And his movies are among the most fearless and creative mainstream films there are.)

I'm not a film composer, but I'm guessing the way to become an A-list composer is, similarly, to write music people really like -- _maybe_ while working as someone's assistant, but maybe by starting with ads or short films or indies, where you might have a chance of getting hired directly rather than working your way up through the ranks. _Or_ maybe by being a musician or composer outside the film world.

And _maybe_ that approach gains you a bit more independence? Jonny Greenwood appears to only take on film projects that he really believes in. But . . . the path to that . . . ? Spend 15 years in a band, and have that band be *Radiohead*. Where -- I feel almost certain -- he had to compromise a lot with those other dudes in the band in order to get songs written and recorded.

Being in Radiohead is hard, of course. So people are giving advice for a (relatively) achievable way to get to write music for a living. Like most jobs (including most artistic jobs), it involves taking other people's needs and preferences into account. There are perhaps "purer" ways to become a working composer... but not that many, and most of them still involve learning how to compromise and work with other people.


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## Josh Richman (Mar 25, 2019)

Arrivals score is brilliant, historically sampled bits, human, musical, other worldly and conceptually ties to the movie. This is all big league composing stuff. It’s caplital A art that stands on its own.


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 25, 2019)

To each their own. Maybe in an age where everything looks and sounds like everything else something only slightly different stands out. But it just kind of sounds like someone took The Thin Red Line, slowed it down and muted half the tracks. I’ve seen and heard that before and I know I’m watching a movie. Last night I watched Zodiac for the 167th time and everything about it, especially the David Shire’s score, just draws me into the chaos and the fog of that story. Same with the opening of Mr Turner, Shadow of the Vampire, The Ninth Gate, The Thing, Vertigo, Machine Gun McCain, Profondo Rosso, Etc ie less and less these days.


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## JohnG (Mar 25, 2019)

Maybe as we get along in life we reappraise older things, or greet new material with a different ear / eye? There are some books or movies that I liked a lot when I first encountered them -- Stendahl's Le Rouge et le Noire is a good example -- that I don't really want to pick up again because I don't think I'd like them so much now.


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 25, 2019)

Very true. Plenty of films, albums, books Ive flipped on over time. And hey, it’s really my loss for not getting sucked in and going along for the ride. I’d definitely give it another real chance (in a theater, not on a tv/laptop).


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## Alex Fraser (Mar 25, 2019)

_"Basically, the editor has cut the film to some unlicensed music. No-one else noticed this until yesterday and the film needs to be delivered tomorrow. So, we need a piece of music which is basically the unlicensed track, but not. The same but not the same."
_
... which is basically a typical brief given to me. High art indeed.


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## FriFlo (Mar 25, 2019)

Alex Fraser said:


> _"Basically, the editor has cut the film to some unlicensed music. No-one else noticed this until yesterday and the film needs to be delivered tomorrow. So, we need a piece of music which is basically the unlicensed track, but not. The same but not the same."
> _
> ... which is basically a typical brief given to me. High art indeed.


Yes! And I totally get that at this point in time you wonder .. shall I tell them I will do it as I need the money or should I tell them that they should take the music more serious (and probably loose the job). I do not judge anyone for doing it in spite of not being take serious. 
But I oppose to this idea of the job bing accepted as the norm and even being endorsed as career advice from an experienced composer to newcomers. If somebody does accept it as the norm, I wonder how much self esteem will be left at the end of such a career ...


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## JohnG (Mar 25, 2019)

Alex Fraser said:


> High art indeed.



Sometimes that's how it is.


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## JohnG (Mar 25, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> If somebody does accept it as the norm



So then, if you find that advice repellant, don't follow it. I find it sickening when people turn the creative arts / crafts (whichever) into another boring job-type conversation.

It's still a good idea to remember who's the boss. There are the Medicis and the Michalangelos, and although I would never compare myself to Michelangelo -- I'm certainly not a Medici.

Moreover, the idea of "composer" does have geographic variants. For a lot of reasons about which we could speculate, outside the USA the role of composer stands a good bit higher. Circumstances can vary, but that's been my experience.


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## Alex Fraser (Mar 25, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> Yes! And I totally get that at this point in time you wonder .. shall I tell them I will do it as I need the money or should I tell them that they should take the music more serious (and probably loose the job). I do not judge anyone for doing it in spite of not being take serious.
> But I oppose to this idea of the job bing accepted as the norm and even being endorsed as career advice from an experienced composer to newcomers. If somebody does accept it as the norm, I wonder how much self esteem will be left at the end of such a career ...


Sure, but I think being able to write music for a living is an incredibly privileged thing to be able to do, regardless of the project you're working on. And yes, sometimes the music isn't taken as seriously by the rest of the film contributors. But, if all that's required is a ditty piano or pad....should it be taken that seriously?


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 25, 2019)

Alex Fraser said:


> Sure, but I think being able to write music for a living is an incredibly privileged thing to be able to do, regardless of the project you're working on. And yes, sometimes the music isn't taken as seriously by the rest of the film contributors. But, if all that's required is a ditty piano or pad....should it be taken that seriously?



How are you ever going to obtain that privilege if you don’t take it seriously?


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## Alex Fraser (Mar 25, 2019)

givemenoughrope said:


> How are you ever going to obtain that privilege if you don’t take it seriously?


Easy. Take the work seriously, but don't take yourself and "your art" too seriously.

Choose your battles: If the rest of the creatives involved in the project are investing their all, do likewise. If all that's required is a quick synth pad at five minutes to midnight, and your music will simply be ran through once on the edit timeline for a quick approval..don't go annoying the director by talking about how the music should be taken seriously. Just deliver it. 

Of course, this is only based on my limited experience and I'm sure you'll get more advice from bigger forum pros.

Edit: And I think that dovetails nicely back to the original video. It's all about understanding your role in the process and keeping the creative ego in check.


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## muk (Mar 26, 2019)

Alex has a point in my opinion. If you are writing film music, you are working on somebody else's project and vision. The composers job is to support this vision as best as they can. A Beethoven symphony is not always the best music for a film. Sometimes it is just a pad with a little rhythmic drive. The best film music is not always the best standalone music.
Also, every director and producer will have their own idea of the importance of music in a movie. If you are working with a director who thinks it is of little importance you either adapt to that and deliver music that is unobtrusive, or you have to turn down the work.

Where I agree with FriFlo is that I think there is a trend in film music to move away from classical music as a reference towards pop music. I am not the greatest expert on film music, so I don't know everything, but I do sometimes miss a greater degree of sophistication in much of todays film music.


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## FriFlo (Mar 26, 2019)

Alex Fraser said:


> Sure, but I think being able to write music for a living is an incredibly privileged thing to be able to do, regardless of the project you're working on. And yes, sometimes the music isn't taken as seriously by the rest of the film contributors. But, if all that's required is a ditty piano or pad....should it be taken that seriously?


If all the film needs is just that the film itself shouldn't be taken that serious!  And, actually, a lot of films are not serious at all or a work of art ... it did not escape me. Yet, at least in my humble opinion, everyone who does a picture should have the ideal of doing something of value. But then, there are of course a million of reasons where that thought is absurd right from the beginning, like the whole advertising film industry, which makes a huge part of the film industry. And I don't mind people doing stuff just for the money, I get that you do not always have the position to pick what you wanna work for.
The only disagreement we have is wether this message send out to the young ones should be sent like that. I think it comes close to a description of the work of a man with no dignity left and that is the part I can't help but feel sad about. I am torn, as I am totally aware that it is an honest advice and probably fed by what happened to Shea. I just don't think this status quo of the film music composer should be endorsed and sent out to the newcomers like this. Or maybe it should be ... I would have been put off the idea of becoming a film composer, had I seen this at a younger age.


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## FriFlo (Mar 26, 2019)

I'll try to make a few examples of the past:
Look at the biography of Bernard Herrmann. The man was an angry force and he took his liberties. Of course, Hitchcock betrayed him in the end, but otherwise he was a respected composer. Do you think anyone with that temper could work in the film music business today?
Look at how Jerry Goldsmith reacted and talked about R. Scott not using most of his Alien score on the movie, but instead music from another film. What do you think would any composer today react? 
Look at how John Williams is allowed to work ... pencil and paper, no mockups, lots of time for writing strict litmitaion to re-writes, music editing, etc. What other composer is being taken even half as serious?
Could you imagine any of these examples originate from current generations of composers for film? I can't. And I doubt anything of value will come from a generation of composers with such a low esteem of their own work and value. And I don't even mean artistic value, here. Just basic human dignity.


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## Henu (Mar 26, 2019)

I think one of the elephants in the room is the fact that many people are seeing "Hollywood blockbusters" as the single and only goal of one's career- which seems to be pretty much being a 24/7-available asset machine and copycat with a mentality of a professional soldier. How much that has to do with creative abilities of conjuring emotions out of your keyboard... and how much it has only to do with the everlasting human quest of eternal fame and "name"?

I've never understood why someone who wants to _compose music, create emotions and immerse people into a different world_ wants to fight for years for breadcrumbs, only to end up copying that 4-chord loop every movie has, obey every single idea (no matter how good or bad they are) with joy and knowing that they day you question the orders is the day they bring the next guy in to replace you.

Peeps like Herrmann are my idols. Maybe that's also why I've never even thought for a second about dreaming of Hollywood.


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## Wally Garten (Mar 26, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> Look at how John Williams is allowed to work ... pencil and paper, no mockups, lots of time for writing strict litmitaion to re-writes, music editing, etc. What other composer is being taken even half as serious?



But you're pointing to someone at the end of a long and successful career. Of course he gets to dictate terms. He's rich and famous! Look at the Wiki description of his early career:

In 1952, Williams was drafted into the U.S. Air Force, where he played the piano, brass and conducted and arranged music for The U.S. Air Force Band as part of his assignments. In a 2016 interview with the US Air Force band, he recounted having attended basic Air Force training at Lackland base (San Antonio, Texas), after which he served as a pianist and brass player, with secondary duties of making arrangements for three years. He also attended music courses at the University of Arizona as part of his service . . . .

Known as "Johnny" during the 1950s and early 1960s, Williams composed the music for many television programs (including several episodes of M Squad), and served as music arranger and bandleader for a series of popular music albums with the singer Frankie Laine . . . .

After his studies at Juilliard and the Eastman School of Music, Williams returned to Los Angeles, where he began working as an orchestrator at film studios . . . .

Williams was also a studio pianist, performing on film scores by composers such as Jerry Goldsmith, Elmer Bernstein, and Henry Mancini.​
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Williams#Early_life_and_family

Do you really think John Williams was in a position to dictate the terms of his work, to say what he would or wouldn't do, _in the Air Force_? People have been throwing the term "good soldier" around here, a bit disparagingly I might add, but John Williams _literally got his start as a professional musician in the military_. And then he worked for other people for the better part of a decade.

Same thing with Bernard Herrman, who started out as a staff conductor at CBS, and Goldsmith, who started in the CBS music department a couple of decades later. I mean, these guys came up in the _studio system_. You really think they weren't pushed around by directors and department heads and studio heads? Everybody pays their dues. You get to make demands and be temperamental _later_, when (if you're lucky) you're hot enough to be valuable in the market despite your quirks, temper, etc.

And Herrmann wasn't "betrayed" by Hitchcock. They had a disagreement, and he had less authority than Hitchcock, so he lost. Herrmann had the freedom to stand on his principles, but only because he was a highly successful, known quantity. He knew he could make money elsewhere. What you're celebrating isn't the greatness or personal independence of the artist -- it's his market value. It's basically the equivalent of Christian Bale yelling at a cameraman. 

It's great that some talented artists (eventually) attain that kind of clout and freedom. Good for them. But it's not something people have at the start of their careers; it's something you _attain_.


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## FriFlo (Mar 26, 2019)

Wally Garten said:


> But you're pointing to someone at the end of a long and successful career. Of course he gets to dictate terms. He's rich and famous! Look at the Wiki description of his early career:
> 
> In 1952, Williams was drafted into the U.S. Air Force, where he played the piano, brass and conducted and arranged music for The U.S. Air Force Band as part of his assignments. In a 2016 interview with the US Air Force band, he recounted having attended basic Air Force training at Lackland base (San Antonio, Texas), after which he served as a pianist and brass player, with secondary duties of making arrangements for three years. He also attended music courses at the University of Arizona as part of his service . . . .
> 
> ...


No, I do not assume there ever was a golden age of composing for films where the composer was equal to the director or producer. Neither do I believe Williams or Goldsmith or anyone was as respected in the beginning of his career as he is now.
What I am saying is, those were different times ... even in this early days of having tough schedules to produce TV-music on a weekly basis, both Williams and Goldsmith had ensembles of real musicians (sometimes maybe not more than 4 musicians) at hand. They had to write for them on paper and directors had to trust them. There wasn't enough time to do much of rewriting. Yes, they may have been pushed around - we don't know that! Yet, they were chosen as people who could do that and from then on, they had way more influence than any composer in the digital age has - as starters in the business. They also got paid for the invaluable experience of conducting and performing their own scores on a weekly basis. Nobody today gets that luxury.
I don't believe it is realistic to hope for the clocks turning back in that regard ... although I would certainly like to see more music being recorded for TV with actual musicians.
My point is rather, I do not think any composer after these ones will ever get as much respect as an important contributor to movies - not even the most successful ones! Especially not with that service mentality in mind.


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## Wally Garten (Mar 26, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> both Williams and Goldsmith had ensembles of real musicians (sometimes maybe not more than 4 musicians) at hand. They had to write for them on paper and directors had to trust them. There wasn't enough time to do much of rewriting. Yes, they may have been pushed around - we don't know that! Yet, they were chosen as people who could do that and from then on, they had way more influence than any composer in the digital age has - as starters in the business. They also got paid for the invaluable experience of conducting and performing their own scores on a weekly basis. Nobody today gets that luxury.



Those are certainly fair points. I would imagine the composer for radio or TV (and, probably, cartoons and serials, too) had a lot of leeway as to any individual score, in any individual week. Maybe that translated to more creative freedom overall. But that person would still have had to _generally_ produce the work that directors and producers wanted, or they would not continue to work (especially in their early years). So the "service mentality" would still have applied. Still, I take your point -- more technology for mockups, temp tracks, etc. means more early interference in the process by people who are not the musicians.


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 26, 2019)

Alex Fraser said:


> Easy. Take the work seriously, but don't take yourself and "your art" too seriously.
> 
> Choose your battles: If the rest of the creatives involved in the project are investing their all, do likewise. If all that's required is a quick synth pad at five minutes to midnight, and your music will simply be ran through once on the edit timeline for a quick approval..don't go annoying the director by talking about how the music should be taken seriously. Just deliver it.
> 
> ...



I mostly agree, just playing devil’s advocate. But there are plenty of examples of directors trusting the composer, composers going against the wishes or at least subverting their expectations that we all site today as benchmarks: Psycho’s shower scene, The Mission (and most of EM’s 70s output), Star Wars being an original score instead of the temp, Elfman’s entire MO, etc. Directors think that bc of the power they wield with the temp they will automatically have more effective use of music but it just hasn’t proven to be true to my ears. It has just made more scores sound the same.


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## Montisquirrel (Mar 26, 2019)

In the video he is talking about having too much work, so he has no other choice than giving it to the assistents. But why? Why don't just take the jobs you can finish? In his case it does not seem to be the money. It is also not the fear to lose clients, is it? Really like to understand this point.


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## Fitz (Mar 26, 2019)

Is it possible that many people who go through the route of assisting end up becoming just that... an assistant to someone forever? Or what about the people who go on their own, meet contacts on the way, and are always known as their own music artist as opposed to a faceless shadow? I'm sure so many assistants and interns have gone through RCP and never come out of it.


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## NoamL (Mar 26, 2019)

If you believe John Williams is never subject to re-writes or music edits, you need to watch *Attack of the Clones* again.


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## NoamL (Mar 26, 2019)

Henu said:


> mentality of a professional soldier.



I guess this was meant sarcastically but it's really not that far off the mark. The composer is the general. The assistants are soldiers. The battle is against time.


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## chillbot (Mar 26, 2019)

Montisquirrel said:


> It is also not the fear to lose clients, is it?


Yes this.

I can see both sides of this, it depends on your goals I guess. But work is hard to get and if you are offered work you don't ever say no.


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## jononotbono (Mar 28, 2019)

NoamL said:


> I guess this was meant sarcastically but it's really not that far off the mark. The composer is the general. The assistants are soldiers. The battle is against time.



It’s one of the rare times in my life that i can honestly say that I’m glad I’m an ex-Professional soldier haha!


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## D Halgren (Mar 28, 2019)

jononotbono said:


> It’s one of the rare times in my life that i can honestly say that I’m glad I’m an ex-Professional soldier haha!


I don't know Luke, you might have to get back in the trenches


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## streetster (Mar 28, 2019)

According to the criteria you either require a Masters or self taught but super talented. How does one measure super talented? Isn't it highly subjective?


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## jononotbono (Mar 28, 2019)

D Halgren said:


> I don't know Luke, you might have to get back in the trenches




I would love to apply but I’m not in a financial position to live in LA at the moment. And if I was, I’m not even remotely good enough to get selected. There are some scarily talented people out there! Looks like an amazing opportunity for the right people!


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## brenneisen (Mar 28, 2019)

not my first language but you got to pay the tuition yourself, am I right?


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## jononotbono (Mar 29, 2019)

Sorry to derail this further but I am curious how much money someone would need to live in LA for a year whilst not earning anything to do something like this Score Academy? I just can’t imagine being able to spend a year from earning anything. Feels like it’s aimed at rich people!


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## jononotbono (Mar 29, 2019)

brenneisen said:


> not my first language but you got to pay the tuition yourself, am I right?



No. Just to support yourself for a year.


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## InLight-Tone (Mar 29, 2019)

jononotbono said:


> Sorry to derail this further but I am curious how much money someone would need to live in LA for a year whilst not earning anything to do something like this Score Academy? I just can’t imagine being able to spend a year from earning anything. Feels like it’s aimed at rich people!


$3000/mo for a crappy apartment...


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## jononotbono (Mar 29, 2019)

InLight-Tone said:


> $3000/mo for a crappy apartment...



That's what I thought. Thanks.


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## dannymc (Mar 29, 2019)

D Halgren said:


> I don't know Luke, you might have to get back in the trenches




what an incredible offer for young composers 

Danny


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## Wally Garten (Mar 29, 2019)

jononotbono said:


> That's what I thought. Thanks.



To be clear, it's not $3000/mo just for rent. That's probably a reasonable figure for expenses all in, though -- and that's assuming you have no debt/obligations.


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## Desire Inspires (Mar 29, 2019)

InLight-Tone said:


> $3000/mo for a crappy apartment...



There are plenty of inexpensive and vacant openings on this place called Skid Row.


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## D Halgren (Mar 29, 2019)

jononotbono said:


> Sorry to derail this further but I am curious how much money someone would need to live in LA for a year whilst not earning anything to do something like this Score Academy? I just can’t imagine being able to spend a year from earning anything. Feels like it’s aimed at rich people!


Maybe Tom will let the person sleep on a couch, or a cot, in the studio. You could sell it as living for the experience!


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## brenneisen (Mar 29, 2019)

jononotbono said:


> No. Just to support yourself for a year.



thanks, the "for by" got me a bit confused


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## InLight-Tone (Mar 29, 2019)

Wally Garten said:


> To be clear, it's not $3000/mo just for rent. That's probably a reasonable figure for expenses all in, though -- and that's assuming you have no debt/obligations.


Ya that's what I was inferring...


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 29, 2019)

Just rent a room from someone in Palms or just South of Culver City. It’ll be dirt cheap and you’ll basically just sleep and just shower there. Very close to Santa Monica. If you aren’t actually assisting or being a runner then you won’t need a car. If you want to really do this the vi-c hivemind local to LA can help you figure out the unknowns.


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## NoamL (Mar 29, 2019)

jononotbono said:


> Sorry to derail this further but I am curious how much money someone would need to live in LA for a year whilst not earning anything to do something like this Score Academy? I just can’t imagine being able to spend a year from earning anything. Feels like it’s aimed at rich people!



Somewhere between $900-$1500 a month for a cheap studio or apartment share on the west side of LA, somewhere like Culver City. Perhaps less if you live far away but then you're paying for a car, gas, spending hours in traffic. Anyway that's $10-18,000 minimum for the year and then you need food and insurance. Probably about $20-30k all told.


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## Desire Inspires (Mar 29, 2019)

NoamL said:


> Somewhere between $900-$1500 a month for a cheap studio or apartment share on the west side of LA, somewhere like Culver City. Perhaps less if you live far away but then you're paying for a car, gas, spending hours in traffic. Anyway that's $10-18,000 minimum for the year and then you need food and insurance. Probably about $20-30k all told.



Sheesh!

Why not just go to college out in LA and do music as a minor or on the side? You’ll bump into a bunch of other musicians if you network. 

No need for couch surfing or panhandling to be some composer’s stooge.


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## D Halgren (Mar 29, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> Sheesh!
> 
> Why not just go to college out in LA and do music as a minor or on the side? You’ll bump into a bunch of other musicians if you network.
> 
> No need for couch surfing or panhandling to be some composer’s stooge.


Cause Tom brings you straight to the table


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## goalie composer (Mar 29, 2019)

givemenoughrope said:


> Just rent a room from someone in Palms or just South of Culver City. It’ll be dirt cheap and you’ll basically just sleep and just shower there. Very close to Santa Monica. If you aren’t actually assisting or being a runner then you won’t need a car. If you want to really do this the vi-c hivemind local to LA can help you figure out the unknowns.


I think he lives in Encino (right in the valley). You can probably get some cheaper living arrangements nearby (ie a room in a house etc)


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 29, 2019)

goalie composer said:


> I think he lives in Encino (right in the valley). You can probably get some cheaper living arrangements nearby (ie a room in a house etc)


Yea...i’d imagine that some sleepier parts of the valley could be pretty cheap if you are just renting a bedroom. If you work backwards and find a place not far from a metro stop, bring your bike, etc.


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## JohnG (Mar 29, 2019)

givemenoughrope said:


> bring your bike



By all means, bring your bike if you want to die. I'm all for saving money but biking in Los Angeles solo seems that it would, in many areas, markedly shorten life expectancy.

Actually though I realise money is a factor, nothing is as important as time. If you think that, artistically, working with Tom is the direction for you, I would ignore all practicalities and find a way to make it happen.


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## jmauz (Mar 29, 2019)

Hmm I ride my bike almost every day. Perhaps I should buy more life insurance?


Anyways, you can find a room to rent in the valley for a reasonable price. That's what I did when I first moved to L.A. Living in Los Angeles doesn't have to be obscenely expensive. I used to survive on $1500 a month and I wasn't starving OR living in a dump.

If you're serious about moving here take some time and exercise due diligence in researching costs of living. Feel free to reach out to me and pick my brain as well. I won't fill you with B.S. - it seems there's a lot of it around here so beware.

Love you guys!


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## JohnG (Mar 29, 2019)

jmauz said:


> Hmm I ride my bike almost every day. Perhaps I should buy more life insurance?



lol -- I live near PCH and it's crazy how close drivers pass bikes there.


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## Wally Garten (Mar 29, 2019)

JohnG said:


> lol -- I live near PCH and it's crazy how close drivers pass bikes there.



Yeah -- no sane person would bike on the PCH. But I biked from West LA/Mar Vista to UCLA for three years, and it was pretty safe. (I did avoid main arteries, riding through small residential neighborhoods instead.) And some parts of the city, like the Valley and Culver City, have long protected bike paths. I think it really depends on what part of the city you're in.


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## NoamL (Mar 29, 2019)

west LA along SM Boulevard - i.e. Santa Monica, Sawtelle, Midcity, WeHo - is pretty bikable. It's also one of the more expensive places to live though.


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## Jeremy Gillam (Mar 29, 2019)

Bike, psshhhh ... hop on a Bird or catch a Lime and get there faster AND in style


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## AdamKmusic (Mar 29, 2019)

It's an odd predicament. You're either young and have no commitments but can't afford to live and sustain yourself without a day job for a year or you're older and can afford it but you have other commitments (family mortgate etc etc)


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 29, 2019)

I


NoamL said:


> west LA along SM Boulevard - i.e. Santa Monica, Sawtelle, Midcity, WeHo - is pretty bikable. It's also one of the more expensive places to live though.



And I remember a story not too long ago about a person being killed in a hit and run while walking home from their 30th B-day party on Santa Monica not far from McCabe’s which seems like a not too crazy area driving-wise.

John is right. Let me walk this back. I didn’t mean to imply that riding your bike around LA is a great idea. It’s not unless you ride down Sunset as part of a huge group ride or on a bike path. People do it but if you are coming from an EU town or city then you are in for a rude awakening. Driving is hard enough and feels like babysitting the dumbest kids alive. Biking on major routes can be taking your life in your hands in certain areas. 

What I meant was that you could use the bike in between the metro stop(s) instead of walking (if there is a stretch that is say, a couple miles). If there is a sidewalk then use it. Stay in residential areas if possible. If you are basically gojng to two places most of the time (home to eat and sleep and work/school) and can swing not having to pay for a car, gas, insurance, registration, etc. then it’s a big expense out of the way.


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## Beluga (Apr 3, 2019)

If you are going into the scoring academy expecting to need a place to sleep you are going there with the wrong attitude. :D No sleep for A-listers.


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