# ***Get your awesome Legato/Vibrato tool here!!!!!***



## Thonex

Hi Everyone,

It's out.... the ultimate Legato and vibrato Script for the general public written by Big Bob.

http://www.theokrueger.com/Sips.htm

Enjoy.


T


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## José Herring

Yeah I'm the first one!!!!

I listen to all the demos. They sound great. Dear. The gap between virtual and real just got shorter. Are they gold proxp?

edit: Where's the paypal account?


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## TheoKrueger

Yay! 

There's no Paypal button Jose, but if you check at the end of the manual there are some links where Robert prefered a donation to be sent at.


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## José Herring

TheoKrueger @ Sat Apr 15 said:


> Yay!
> 
> There's no Paypal button Jose, but if you check at the end of the manual there are some links where Robert prefered a donation to be sent at.



I'll gladly send something. Thank you very much for your contributions to the sample comunity. First TKT and now you're the distributor for Big Bob's script.

Best,

Jose


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## Tod

A long wait but every bit worth it. :smile:  

Andrew, you and Theo did a great job with your mock-ups.


PS> A huge thankyou to Big Bob. Also to Nils. If it wasn't for these two guys K2 would be half as exciteing.


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## Thonex

josejherring @ Sat Apr 15 said:


> Yeah I'm the first one!!!!
> 
> I listen to all the demos. They sound great. Dear. The gap between virtual and real just got shorter. Are they gold proxp?
> 
> edit: Where's the paypal account?



Mine were all EW Gold Pro XP becuase I didn't have anything else on that machine... and I didn't really have time to start porting a whole bunch of stuff over.... but it's pretty amazing what these scripts will do for old libraries.... I'm talking like old Akai and Roland Libraries.... but of course the better the source samples the better the scripts will sound.

This is also a very inspirational tool.... one step closer to writing what we hear in our heads.

T


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## Frederick Russ

Folks - this changes everything! Kudos to the K2 scripting team. I love the inclusivity of the way you're offering this to composers everywhere. Incredible generosity - the demos sound great!

It's Christmas all over again and the best part is that our existing libraries are part of the package.


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## Evan Gamble

Brass intervals sound excellent so far! thanks Big Bob, theo, and andrew!


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## synergy543

Wow! I didn't see that one coming.... :shock: 
I feel like I just got hit by a truck and the Easter Bunny brought me back to life.
Now I'm in heaven. :lol: 

This is so sweet.
Thanks Big Bob, TK and Thonex. You guys rule!


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## lux

just exploring, actually I find great ehnancement on ewqlso 1st edition patches.

Very very good, congrats guys.

As a feedback, I find the clarinet 1 presets the most usable, because i hear less clearly bend excursion.

Thanks a lot for it!

Luca


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## Waywyn

holy rusty c*ckring ...

this is a helluva script there. i guess this will change a lot 
thanks to all who have been involved by doing this.


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## fitch

i see a few of you using your EW libraries in kontact 2 rather than the included engine .. 

i didn't realise this was possible .. 

cool !


obviously the scripting possibilities are opening up other avenues :D specifically legato.

so is it just a matter of pointing kontact to where your EW libs are stored ? no extra conversions?


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## synergy543

fitch @ Sun Apr 16 said:


> so is it just a matter of pointing kontact to where your EW libs are stored ? no extra conversions?


Yes, they open right up in Kontakt. You can easily make adjustments to the programs on levels you can't do with the Kompakt player such as mapping, tuning, scripts, MIDI control of paramters, etc.


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## fitch

wow.. this really is helping me to decide :D .. 


cool :D


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## zonobono

i tried the scripts this morning, and they are really great!!!

thanks a lot to everybody involved.


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## Joseph Burrell

That solo flute demo by Theo is bloody amazing.

As I said on NS, thanks to everyone for the hard work on this!

I look forward giving it a run through with EWQL this evening.


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## Patrick de Caumette

Big Bob, Theo and Thonex,
thanks so much dudes!  

Very generous of you all. I'll check these as soon as I have a minute !


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## Craig Sharmat

fitch @ Sun Apr 16 said:


> wow.. this really is helping me to decide :D ..
> 
> 
> cool :D



You really don't have a choice...sorry, i am a GS guy and love to program on it, but this just kicks ass.

thanks Big Bob,Theo and Broski! for all your hard work. It is a rare time indeed when a small software program not only adds inspiration but has the capacity to change almost everything you own.

the capabilities are mind blowing.


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## fitch

LOL Craig :D ... that's what i thought .. the range of scripts is incredible.


it's been ordered :D :wink:


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## Nick Phoenix

Can't wait to try these!


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## Rich Pell

So cool that you made and are sharing these guys.. `Im completely baffeled by scripting.. :roll: Best, Rich


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## nadeama

Hi guys,

Just to answer Jose's question about the libraries used in the demos, my own 3 little demos (based on standard film music and classical repertoire) use Dan Dean Solo Brass (Non-Vibrato Trumpet, Trombone, and French Horn respectively). Although they are associated with the 3 Vibrato Script presets that I wrote, they also use the Legato Script for their legato transitions. So I think they're a good example of what SIPS in general can bring to the DD Solo Brass library.

Many thanks to Big Bob for creating this marvelous suite of scripts. His generosity, taking into account the enormous amount of work he put into this, is simply beyond words.

One thing I'd also like to point out is how good the included user documentation is. I have expensive, professional software that doesn't include documentation that good. Everything is clearly explained by Bob, and Theo and Andrew give some very useful pointers on how to go about creating scripts. Actually, Bob has asked me to write my own section of tips for the next revision of the manual and I think I'll have to decline. Not because I don't want to do it, but because all I did to create my little presets was follow what's already in the docs! I don't think I could have anything to add.

So, congratulations Bob, Theo, Andrew, and Gary Lionelli (who was on the team early on) for some fantastic work that will change the sound of pretty much all my sample libraries!


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## rJames

Hey Thonex and Theo and anyone who's been using these for a while...

I see that we can't use the release trails. 

Do you create a whole template that has the RTs deleted? 

Do you leave the RTs on the "other" instruments and create one instance of K2 where you recreate a reverb tail to match the RT in Gold?

Theo, I know you have Platinum, are you using the Close mics so that the RTs can be cut off without as much of a negative effect?

Thanks, your demos sound great. Can't wait to have more realistic instruments.


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## Thonex

Hi Rjames,

It's very easy to delete the "rel" groups in K2. It's also handy to then purge unused groups just to keep things clean. 

About the reverb... eveything is a comrpomise, in this case the realism of the legato far outweighs the reverb tails IMO. I use a stage reverb followed bt a long tail reverb and it blends the samples pretty well.


T


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## Thonex

Hey guys,

I emailed Big Bob and I told him to come here and say "hi" ... I told him he was getting all sorts of great reactions to his script here.

Hopefully he'll come by and be a regular member of the K2 scripting forum.


T


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## rJames

A question for Big Bob...

Sure we can delete RT layers.

Is there a way that you could list all of the RT groups in the script and then have the script set all of the listed groups to 0 volume when "connected" notes are played. Then allowed to play out when notes are played that are not connected?

You play one note, then as the second note is played (overlapped to utilize legato) the listed (RT groups) are all turned to 0 volume (-infinity db)...as the last note in the phrase is played and the key is let up (no overlap) the RTs are set to normal volume.

There would be no need to figure out a compatible reverb setup.

OR can you just interrupt the key up message that is being sent so that the RT doesn't play? You would have to make sure that only one note played on the final key up message.

In this way the script would even work with EW surround mics.


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## Toxeen

holy sh**, that's great. definately willing to give it a try


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## rJames

Well, this is not good.

I just replaced a few of instruments in a song. French horn and 18 v and 11v violins.

Everything played great as I was testing and setting up.

I bounced it (offline not realtime) and the instruments with the legato script don't play.

Does bouncing them offline ruin them.

Now if the script is on the instruments make pathtic mixed up noises. If the script is bypassed, they play normally.

Huh?

The strings still play but spit extra notes while sustaining.

The horns make a short attempt at playing.

Can you use these instruemnts with DFD. (maybe I didn't read the manual close enough)


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## Thonex

rjames,

We didn't beta offline bouncing (not realtime bouncing).... so we'll have to wait and get more of a consensus on this. Why don't you try this with other scripts and see...

T


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## rJames

Has anyone tested it with more than one instrument at a time using the legato?

I just tried it with only Fr horns using legato and they recorded (offline bounce) just fine.

DFD worked fine as well.

I would guess that the script wouldn't get mixed up as to what instance of Kontakt it is working on?

I am leaving RTs intact. Maybe turn them down a hair. It works fine with big legato intervals. Not so good with runs.

In a real recording you would have the reverb tail of the "take-off" note sitting there in the mix anyway. all you lose is the RT of the faked legato which in these large intervals (unless you are using it as a gliss) will be unnoticeable.


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## Craig Sharmat

I just did a 16 sec sequence with 4 legato scripts running and bounced off line. It sounded has horrible as i played it in...:wink: It did once when sequencing just stop sounding period, in which case i reloaded the scripts and all was fine. If that happens on a regualr basis it could be a pia as i had to reload all the scripts.


edit

I have now worked another 45 minutes with the script, bounced and everything went perfectly. i have bounced online and realtime.


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## kotori

Craig, if the instrument stops sounding it could be a bug in the script (although there could also be some other explanation). I'm sure Bob would be very greatful if you can find out a way to reproduce it in a predictable way.

rJames, two script instances can never interfer with each other even if they are loaded in the same instance of K2. So no need to worry about that.
Regarding RTs there's no way for a script to tell apart release trigger groups from ordinary groups. If scripts could do that it would be a piece of cake to disable all the release trigger groups. Ideally the RTs would have been better designed. If a script changes the volume/panning/tuning of a note as it is now this change won't be mirrored in the RT group. To fix that scripts have to handle RTs explicitly which is ridiculously complex due to some K2 inconsistencies and the script also needs information about which groups are RTs. Hopefully Bob's excellent scripts will increase the interest in KSP making it possible to put some pressure on NI to do things better.


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## rJames

kotori @ Sun Apr 16 said:


> Regarding RTs there's no way for a script to tell apart release trigger groups from ordinary groups.



Thanks for responding. I understand you are one of the gurus of scripting.

But isn't there a way to make a list of groups using some kind of variable. then mute those groups (the script wouldn't have to find the group just look up the variable) if "legato" was kicked in? Unmute those groups if "legato" is not used.


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## Hans Adamson

What about using:

"by_marks(<bit-mark>)" to identify rt groups?


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## rJames

On rethinking about the RT problem, I would rather have control.

I think the RTs sound fine in most conditions. They become impossible on quick runs.

So, it would be nice to have either an automatic volume adjustment based on length of previous note or a cc value to draw in the curves.

I guess that is already possible by just assigning a seperate cc value to an RT groups volume control.


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## Thonex

Hans Adamson @ Sun Apr 16 said:


> What about using:
> 
> "by_marks(<bit-mark>)" to identify rt groups?




There is a way to do it... I don't know what it is.. But I've seen scripts that (on your command) scan the groups and number them.. then you just choose the "re' groups.... something like that.

I'll try to rememebr where I say it.

T


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## Big Bob

Hi Guys,

Thonex suggested that I drop in here and say HELLO.

Regarding the big discussion about release triggering, let me begin by saying that this is one of K2's more poorly implemented features. That being said, I'll try to be a little more specific. 

Let me begin by saying that *by_marks* is merely a way to tag 'events' and reference them later in various combinations. It has nothing whatever to do with 'groups'. I'll just fire this off as my opening salvo (to get accustomed to this forum) and then I'll continue on my RT soapbox with the next post.

Bob

PS Already I see something is wrong because none of my profile settings seem to be working. Give me a few minutes to check that out.


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## Thonex

Big Bob @ Sun Apr 16 said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Thonex suggested that I drop in here and say HELLO.
> 
> Regarding the big discussion about release triggering, let me begin by saying that this is one of K2's more poorly implemented features. That being said, I'll try to be a little more specific.
> 
> Let me begin by saying that *by_marks* is merely a way to tag 'events' and reference them later in various combinations. It has nothing whatever to do with 'groups'. I'll just fire this off as my opening salvo (to get accustomed to this forum) and then I'll continue on my RT soapbox with the next post.
> 
> Bob
> 
> PS Already I see something is wrong because none of my profile settings seem to be working. Give me a few minutes to check that out.




Welcome to VI-Pro forum Bob!!!!!!!!!!

I think you'll really enjoy it here... Everybody is so impressed with your SIPS Legato/Vibrato suite.

I hope you had a great Easter and I look forward to seeing you around here a LOT more :wink: 

You'll see there are some very talented people here that will really appreciate all your efforts... we all look forward to any aand all of your posts.

Cheers,

T


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## Hans Adamson

Hey Big Bob,

You are so welcome to our new forum dedicated to Kontakt scripting etc.!!!!

I am a complete illiterate when it comes to any kind of scripting, or deeper computer knowledge, but I am trying to learn this. The reason I asked about the by_marks thing is that the Kontakt scripting manual says:

"by_marks(<bit-mark>)
address all events of the specified event group"

I guess the word group is used in a different meaning than the Kontakt "group" term?


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## Frederick Russ

Welcome to VI Big Bob! I really appreciate your generosity and hard work in producing this script. Well done! And thank you very much. Perhaps we can show our own appreciation by donations to your paypal account for continued support of your efforts?


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## Per K

these scripts are great! Thanks to everyone involved.


tip: use the legato script on the French Oboe (sustain) included in K2, and try the oboe preset.... very subtle but the details make it great.


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## Craig Sharmat

Hi Big Bob, welcome and thank you. Wonderful work and contribution to the sample community. I would also like to paypal if possible.


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## Elfen

Hi Big Bob, thank you very much for theses scripts, lot of time seem to have been put in them, it shows.

Welcome to the site!


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## Big Bob

> Welcome to VI-Pro forum Bob!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> I think you'll really enjoy it here... Everybody is so impressed with your SIPS Legato/Vibrato suite.
> 
> I hope you had a great Easter and I look forward to seeing you around here a LOT more
> 
> You'll see there are some very talented people here that will really appreciate all your efforts... we all look forward to any aand all of your posts.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> T


Thanks Andrew (Thonex), you are too too kind!

Since I seem to have gotten some of my profile stuff straightened out, I will now step up on my RT soapbox and let 'er rip!

The KSP can only enable/disable groups by their number or name and as Nils already pointed out, the KSP cannot tell which groups have their Release Trigger option enabled. If a group is 'activated' as a release group, the KSP design is such that things like tuning of the key-down sample have no effect on the 'release-triggered' sample. Therefore, to put the script in control, several messy things have to be done. First, the pre-processor directive:


Code:


 NO_SYS_SCRIPT_RLS_TRIG

has to be invoked in order to effectively turn off the Release Trigger. Unfortunately when this is done, it sets up a number of peculiar and sometimes erratic behaviour of the KSP which I won't go into here. Because of these weird side effects, a better way to disable the RT function of those groups that are using it, is to give the user instructions on how to go into K2 and do it manually. Not a perfect solution by any means because now the user can't simply load a script and go, he first has to prepare the instrument.

The previously stated problem that the script has no way to determine which groups contain release samples, requires that the script has to build a drop-down menu of all the instrument groups and the ask the user to click on the ones that are used as release samples. Again, kind of a hoaky process. However, I believe this is the technique that Thonex referred to with the following:



> There is a way to do it... I don't know what it is.. But I've seen scripts that (on your command) scan the groups and number them.. then you just choose the "re' groups.... something like that.
> 
> I'll try to rememebr where I say it.
> 
> T



Now, after all this is done, by whatever means, the script is now in a position to trigger release samples 'conditionally' when a release callback (RCB) occurs.

I used this sort of strategy when I wrote the Ultra TKT Script and it more or less works but not without some quirks, some of them very strange indeed but that's another topic.

Thonex can tell you that we already had some discussion about whether or not we should consider utilizing RTs with the Legato Script, ie the SLS. One can envision at least utilizing the release sample for the last note of a legato phrase. Release samples during the 'inside notes' of legato phrases will only hurt the sound generally. We may yet decide to optionally add release samples to the last note of legato phrases but, it's not cut and dried. We have been able to come up with reasons why it wouldn't improve things just as well as reasons why it might be better. This is a controversial topic at best. That, coupled with K2's lame implementation of RT, makes this less than a high-priority feature for consideration.
But, if we get a lot of requests for it, we may look into it more thorougly.

I do want to thank everyone (well nearly everyone) for your enthusiastic welcome of SIPS. It is of course my hope that SIPS will fill a real need for you guys that are struggling to 'make a silk purse out of a sows ear', at least that's often what I feel like when I'm trying to take some less than versatile samples and make them sound authentic :cry: .

Now, I think what I'll do is make another pass through this thread to see if I need to answer any other questions, my old brain is getting kind of forgetful these days. Besides, it took me quite a while to type this so you may have added something since I started. Anyway, give me a few minutes and I'll be back to try to fill in the holes.


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## synergy543

Hi Big Bob,

Welcome to the VI Control forum and thank you for this marvelous contribution.

I have one minor request - Would it be possible add an invert option to the legato MIDI cc response? I have it set to a foot switch and the legato goes on when the switch is up. I would prefer if it would respnd in the opposite way - legato on when the switch is down. So for example, could the legato switch in the script window determine the polarity of the response depending upon what state it is first in? This would be very easy to toggle and wouldn't take up any more real estate.

I guess another option would be for me to get another pedal switch.....however I could see this being an issue if one were to use switches on MIDI controller that responded in a similar way so if possible it would be nice to have this polarity option.

Kind of a minor bone to pick...which shows what a great job you did!


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## Ned Bouhalassa

Another big THANKS Bob. Your scripts worked flawlessly here as well... in fact, after running out of instruments to try it out on, I went and got my toolbox and tried to make my hammer and saw legato as well... without much luck! The saw did do some pretty cool vibrato though. :wink:

PS: I do get stuck notes when I switch Bypass on/off while playing, but I guess that's to be expected and can be adjusted with experience, being careful to not hold a note while switching, right?


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## Big Bob

Hi Hans,



> Hey Big Bob,
> 
> You are so welcome to our new forum dedicated to Kontakt scripting etc.!!!!
> 
> I am a complete illiterate when it comes to any kind of scripting, or deeper computer knowledge, but I am trying to learn this. The reason I asked about the by_marks thing is that the Kontakt scripting manual says:
> 
> "by_marks(<bit-mark>)
> address all events of the specified event group"
> 
> I guess the word group is used in a different meaning than the Kontakt "group" term?



Yes, the phrase event group simply refers to a group of events which is not the same thing as the sample containers called Groups. 



> Welcome to VI Big Bob! I really appreciate your generosity and hard work in producing this script. Well done! And thank you very much. Perhaps we can show our own appreciation by donations to your paypal account for continued support of your efforts?



Thank you for your generosity Frederick. If you will look at the last page of the User's Guide for SIPS you'll find my feelings about remuneration and a mechanism for making donations if you are so inclined. God Bless you for wanting to.



> Hi Big Bob, welcome and thank you. Wonderful work and contribution to the sample community. I would also like to paypal if possible.


God Bless you Craig for your generosity, please see my answer above to Frederick.

And then, I don't know how I missed this one:



> Another big THANKS Bob. Your scripts worked flawlessly here as well... in fact, after running out of instruments to try it out on, I went and got my toolbox and tried to make my hammer and saw legato as well... without much luck! The saw did do some pretty cool vibrato though.



Maybe you could go on Major Bows Amateur Hour with your musical saw and maybe they won't notice that your hammer is playing staccato :wink: 



> PS: I do get stuck notes when I switch Bypass on/off while playing, but I guess that's to be expected and can be adjusted with experience, being careful to not hold a note while switching, right?



This one I'll have to try (if I can reproduce it), I'll get back to you Ned.

Well I think I've responded to all the questions directed at me. If I missed any, please repost it and when I come back I'll give it a shot.

God Bless,

Bob

PS sorry about all the edits to this post but I think I'm finally getting the hang of it.


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## Nick Batzdorf

What about just using a controller to trigger the release samples? At first I thought of release velocity, but a better idea would just to make cc64 (sus pedal) on trigger the legato script and cc64 off trigger the release samples.


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## Big Bob

> What about just using a controller to trigger the release samples? At first I thought of release velocity, but a better idea would just to make cc64 (sus pedal) on trigger the legato script and cc64 off trigger the release samples.


First off Nick, you had better pick a different CC (I'm sorry to say). CC64 is one of the few CC's that cannot be intercepted by scripts. It can be read but it cannot be blocked. Furthermore, SIPS already uses CC64 in a fairly sophisticated way to allow legato playing of two or more notes of the same pitch, plus, allowing you to play an occasional chord (in pure solo mode), see page 10 of the User's Guide.

Now as to the gist of your suggestion (regardless of what CC you use), any number of things like this can be postulated but almost all of them will require some editing of the instrument to prepare it to work with the script. I've already stated that if there is sufficient interest in 'folding in' RTs, we may look into this down the road. However, SIPS is distributed òH   7H   7žH   7ŸH   7 H   7¡H   7¢H   7£H   7¤H   7¥H   7¦H   7§H   7¨H   7©H   7ªH   7«H   7¬H   7­H   7®H   7¯H   7°H   7±H   7²H   7³H   7´H   7µH   7¶H   7·H   7¸H   7¹H   7ºH   7»H   7¼H   7½H   7¾H   7¿H   7ÀH   7ÁH   7ÂH   7ÃH   7ÄH   7ÅH   7ÆH   7ÇH   7ÈH   7ÉH   7ÊH   7ËH€   7ÌH€   7ÍH€   7ÎH€   7ÏH€   7ÐH€   7ÑH€   7ÒH€   7ÓH€   7ÔH€   7ÕH€   7ÖH


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## Tod

First of all I want to say a big wellcome to Big Bob. With Bob, Niles, Thonex, and Theo what better way to get this new thread in the right direction.  



TheoKrueger said:


> There is a way to use release samples with the script:
> 
> Load up your French Horn and also create a new empty instrument, Cut the REL group and paste it in the new instrument. Now assign them both to the same channel output and you will have legato with releases. The only downside is that the releases will not have any bend in them thus sounding a bit unnatural.
> As Kontakt allows 64 instruments per instance to be loaded, you can have 16 instrument slices playing legato and 16 of them assigned to the corresponding channel handling the releases.



Is there any reason we couldn't take this another step Theo, by adding a Keyswitch to this release? That way it could be keyed on only at the end of a phrase and then be keyed off again. 

Or maybe better yet turn the cc11 on the release to cc12 and have even more difinitive control over it. Of course the cc12 would probably have to match up fairly close to what the cc11 is in the main scripted instrument but it should give you more control.

Probably totaly wrong but just a thought. :smile:


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## José Herring

I think the release tails can sometimes limit what we can do with the samples. How fast we can play, ect.

Personally I'm willing to try the script with out the tails for a little while just to see what it's like.


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## Thonex

josejherring @ Sun Apr 16 said:


> I think the release tails can sometimes limit what we can do with the samples. How fast we can play, ect.
> 
> Personally I'm willing to try the script with out the tails for a little while just to see what it's like.



That's what I did for every legato patch in my SIPS demo mp3s... becuase all I had on that machine was EW GOld Pro XP.

I little "smart" reverb and Bob's your uncle.... heh heh... no pun intended.

Cheers,

T


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## Tod

Hi sbkp,

What I think we're talking about here is the way the release tails are interfereing with the phrase(s). In other words they are getting in the way. By examining Big Bobs manual and the way the crossfades are being initiated, it shouldn't matter that the release tails are not part of the phrase(s) because of the way it all blends in together. I could be totaly wrong here. 

Personaly I did as Andrew suggested and simply deleted the release tails and then added some convo-verb. At this point I think I can live with that. :smile:


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## choc0thrax

Is there a thread somewhere which describes how to get rid of the RT's in EWQLSO?


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## rJames

By bringing up the RT, I hope I didn't sound unhappy.

This is revolutionary. I'm in. I put it on a FrHorn with RT and it sounded fine because the movement was slow. the tiny bit of reverb that was missing (on the connection only) didnt' bother me.

Stefan is right, in most cases, missing the verb on the "connection" will be a bad thing.

I suppose it will be better to hear the reverb of the legato connection.

It certainly won't help with a gliss or with fast runs.

For a final solution, I guess I 'll finally have to give up on RTs.

A major thanks to Bob.


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## rJames

choc0thrax @ Sun Apr 16 said:


> Is there a thread somewhere which describes how to get rid of the RT's in EWQLSO?



I think Thonex posted it in this thread. It is somewhere here.

Open up the editor to groups. Select any group (touch the name to highlight) that has RT as the suffix (in EW) and use the EDIT menu that is right above the group listing to DELETE.

Delete all of the RT groups.

Then, as Thonex said, use the same EDIT menu to PURGE the samples.


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## Thonex

Tod @ Sun Apr 16 said:


> By examining Big Bobs manual and the way the crossfades are being initiated, it shouldn't matter that the release tails are not part of the phrase(s) because of the way it all blends in together.



You are correct. Furthermore, the release triggered tails are not "pitched" because they are triggered on a key release.... not a key down.... so what is happening (for example) if you have a slow gliss a note going up a 5th... the legato will glided up a 5th whereby the release trigger will play the tonic (UNPITCHED) and therefor you'll have unintended 2 noted of differeing pitches.

T


----------



## Tod

Hehe rjames, to clarify we sould say "purge empty groups" in the group editor so as not to be confused with the Purge in the instrument header. :smile:


----------



## Tod

Thonex said:


> You are correct. Furthermore, the release triggered tails are not "pitched" because they are triggered on a key release.... not a key down.... so what is happening (for example) if you have a slow gliss a note going up a 5th... the legato will glided up a 5th whereby the release trigger will play the tonic (UNPITCHED) and therefor you'll have unintended 2 noted of differeing pitches



Exactly! So what do you think Thonex, based on Theo's post and then my post, if someone wanted a release only at the end of a phrase do you think it would work? It seems logical to me.


----------



## rJames

Thanks, Tod. Did I just about erase Choco's hard drive?


----------



## Tod

rJames @ Sun Apr 16 said:


> Thanks, Tod. Did I just about erase Choco's hard drive?


Hehe no, a simple "update sample pool" would bring it all back but it could get confuseing. 

Edit: Actually that should be "reload all samples". :smile:


----------



## sbkp

Tod @ Sun Apr 16 said:


> Exactly! So what do you think Thonex, based on Theo's post and then my post, if someone wanted a release only at the end of a phrase do you think it would work? It seems logical to me.



I know I'm not Thonex, but...

You would have proper ambience only on the last note, which would sound incredibly weirdòH˜   7"ÉH˜   7"ÊH˜   7"ËH˜   7"ÌH˜   7"ÍH˜   7"ÎH˜   7"ÏH˜   7"ÐH˜   7"ÑH˜   7"ÒH˜   7"ÓH˜   7"ÔH˜   7"ÕH˜   7"ÖH˜   7"×H˜   7"ØH˜   7"ÙH˜   7"ÚH˜   7"ÛH˜   7"ÜH˜   7"ÝH˜   7"ÞH˜   7"ßH˜   7"àH˜   7"áH˜   7


----------



## Thonex

choc0thrax @ Sun Apr 16 said:


> Is there a thread somewhere which describes how to get rid of the RT's in EWQLSO?



Choco... I think I also explained it in the .pdf that came with SIPS.

T


----------



## Scott Cairns

Congratulations on the scripts guys! Theo gave me the heads-up that they were available, but Ive been away. 

Look forward to trying them out!!

Cheers,

Scott.


----------



## Tod

Thonex said:


> Exactly. Creating a reverb that works on a legato phrase and then ADDING to that reverb with reverb tail at the end of the phrase would sound weird.... IMO.... and Stafan's :smile:


Thonex, comeon my friend, I'm not talking about adding reverb and then adding a release tail. There are a lot of EW Gold users here that may be partial to thier tails hehe. As I metioned earlier I have no problem with doing as you suggested and deleteing the tails and then adding verb.

By doing what Theo suggests and then doing what I suggest, would this not work?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

For me the problem is that I'm not skilled in the art of programming.


----------



## sbkp

Tod @ Sun Apr 16 said:


> Thonex said:
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. Creating a reverb that works on a legato phrase and then ADDING to that reverb with reverb tail at the end of the phrase would sound weird.... IMO.... and Stafan's :smile:
> 
> 
> 
> Thonex, comeon my friend, I'm not talking about adding reverb and then adding a release tail. There are a lot of EW Gold users here that may be partial to thier tails hehe. As I metioned earlier I have no problem with doing as you suggested and deleteing the tails and then adding verb.
> 
> By doing what Theo suggests and then doing what I suggest, would this not work?
Click to expand...


I wasn't really talking about adding reverb + the release trails either. If you only have ambience on the last note in a phrase, it will sound terrible, or at least totally unlike a real phrase played in a real space. What it will sound like is a phrase played dry with reverb added to the end. And that will sound very much unlike what I think you're expecting to hear.

As for Theo's idea, it could work. But as he points out, it will sound unnatural in places, because the bends will not occur in the release trails. The ambience won't match the "dry" signal.

- Stefan


----------



## Thonex

Tod @ Mon Apr 17 said:


> Thonex said:
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. Creating a reverb that works on a legato phrase and then ADDING to that reverb with reverb tail at the end of the phrase would sound weird.... IMO.... and Stafan's :smile:
> 
> 
> 
> Thonex, comeon my friend, I'm not talking about adding reverb and then adding a release tail. There are a lot of EW Gold users here that may be partial to thier tails hehe. As I metioned earlier I have no problem with doing as you suggested and deleteing the tails and then adding verb.
> 
> By doing what Theo suggests and then doing what I suggest, would this not work?
Click to expand...


I think it could work... but I'm unsure about how natural it would sound. Then again, I'm one of those guys that uses reverbs on top of EW releases to begin with :smile: .

Also, another thing is that you'd have to add a completely new module to the script, because there is simply no room for any other Key Switching and group choosing parameters in the current gui of either of the scripts. 

Maybe someone can post a legato part with last notes using reverb tail release triggers and hear how it sounds.

T


----------



## sbkp

http://media.stefanpodell.com/audio/release_last_note.mp3 (http://media.stefanpodell.com/audio/rel ... t_note.mp3)


----------



## sbkp

TheoKrueger @ Sun Apr 16 said:


> Load up your French Horn and also create a new empty instrument, Cut the REL group and paste it in the new instrument. Now assign them both to the same channel output and you will have legato with releases. The only downside is that the releases will not have any bend in them thus sounding a bit unnatural.



Another difficulty here is that since the SIPS script "mono-ifies" the part, then to the degree that notes overlap, the ends of notes in the SIPS part will not coincide with the triggering of the release trails. In other words, the release trails will be late, depending on how much overlap there is.

- Stefan


----------



## Thonex

sbkp @ Mon Apr 17 said:


> http://media.stefanpodell.com/audio/release_last_note.mp3



Thanks for doing that sbkp. Yeah.... naked like that, the last notes sound un-natural to me... you only get the "bloom" of the room on the last note... 

For me, I think the answer is using good impuls reverbs... or just good plain reverbs.... and leaving the release triggers out of it... but that's just me.

My opinion.

T


----------



## Thonex

Big Bob @ Mon Apr 17 said:


> All this being said, let me also say that if adding some code to SIPS to handle release samples (perhaps along with some instrument edits) would actually be beneficial, you can rest assured that it will likely happen. But, remember that what we're after is realism, not using RTs just because they're there. Because of equating RTs with reverb, I think this whole thing is getting muddied up. This is why I think that if used at all, RTs should only be applied to the last note of each phrase and not


Just finishing up your last sentence :wink: 

"This is why I think that if used at all, RTs should only be applied to the last note of each phrase and not [my edit] to the parent notes within the legato phrase."

T


----------



## Craig Sharmat

I generally eliminate RT's anyway, they eat up polyphony and often the RT is at the wrong volume for the phrase i am writing. QLSO Rt's are better than most but I still prefer to cut down on polyphony.


----------



## kotori

Bob, I think you summarized a lot of my thoughts very nicely. It seems many people here use EWQLSO (right?). Personally I use VSL Opus 1 which is recorded very dry so I tend to think of release samples more as note endings than reverb tails. Even though those instruments have sampled legato I'm still interested in the legato script for saving RAM and being able to vary speed more flexibly. I think it would be nice if SLS could trigger release samples.

Btw. for anyone interested I wrote a thread at the NI forum a while ago detailing the most prominent design flaws (as I see it) of release triggers in KSP. I urge everyone to try to put some pressure on NI to fix these things.


----------



## choc0thrax

I got a problem when I moved from silver to Gold that in a big enough chord where two chords meet sometimes some of the notes will cut off the second chord everytime. Is this because of the RT's are eating too much polyphony?


----------



## sbkp

choc0thrax @ Mon Apr 17 said:


> I got a problem when I moved from silver to Gold that in a big enough chord where two chords meet sometimes some of the notes will cut off the second chord everytime. Is this because of the RT's are eating too much polyphony?



Well, either the RTs are using too much polyphony or the polyphony isn't set high enough in the instruments. It's all in how you look at it. Kind of a half-empty/half-full thing. Just think in terms of chocolate milk, and it will all make perfect sense.

- Stefan


----------



## choc0thrax

Actually I was drinking chocolate milk as I read this. I've played with the polyphony of the instruments and it doesn't help. Maybe my cpu is getting killed?


----------



## synergy543

TheoKrueger @ Sun Apr 16 said:


> There is a way to use release samples with the script:
> 
> Load up your French Horn and also create a new empty instrument, Cut the REL group and paste it in the new instrument. Now assign them both to the same channel output and you will have legato with releases. The only downside is that the releases will not have any bend in them thus sounding a bit unnatural.



This sounds like a possibly promising solution. Why not just make a separate SIPS program for the release samples without bend? I haven't tried this yet but maybe it would work?


----------



## Hans Adamson

Choco,

Set the polyphony in the instrument to one lower than the maximum voices in the options page for streaming. Try higher values in the options page, and adjust so that the instrument polyphony is always one lower.


----------



## sbkp

choc0thrax @ Mon Apr 17 said:


> Actually I was drinking chocolate milk as I read this.



Well, duh....



choc0thrax @ Mon Apr 17 said:


> I've played with the polyphony of the instruments and it doesn't help. Maybe my cpu is getting killed?



Possible. There are two places to set the polyphony: the DFD max voices and each instrument's max voices. What kind of chords are we talking about? Ed-like arms-on-the-keyboard chords?

- Stefan


----------



## choc0thrax

Well let's say I wanted to mockup some Zimmer stuff.


----------



## kid-surf

Just one more dude saying "Bob, (and crew) thanks a billion".............!


----------



## Mike Greene

And let me be yet another dude here saying thank you to Bob, Theodor, Thonex (same as Andrew, right?) and Martin. This is really great of you guys.  

And a big welcome to Bob! I read the last couple pages of the pdf and it's clear you're a very decent and generous guy. I hope you'll be a regular here.  

- Mike Greene


----------



## José Herring

Having a chance now to fully go through and try the legato script. Boy, I don't know what you did Big Bob but I can tell you that it's making everything it touches way more playable. The less tweeking I have to do the better imo.

Thanks a million again.

Jose


----------



## Big Bob

Hey Thanks Andrew for trying to finish my post.


> Just finishing up your last sentence
> 
> "This is why I think that if used at all, RTs should only be applied to the last note of each phrase and not [my edit] to the parent notes within the legato phrase."
> 
> T


I don't know what happened to the last part of what I wrote (unless there is a max character count or something).

Actually I think I said ... and not to the 'inside notes' of legato phrases. The term parent note usually refers to a real played note that the KSP creates one or more child notes for (using the play_note() function).

Reading all the back and forth banter about to RTS or not to RTS convinces me all the more that most of you view release samples in terms of reverb. I realize you have no way to remove the reverb that you are stuck with in the libraries that you have purchased, but, if I were you, I would start putting pressure on sound developers to offer (at least as an option) some dry samples. Then we could eventually do this thing right.

For now, about the only band-aid seems to be to bury the recorded reverb in yet more added reverb (not exactly the most desireable path). But, if you are willing to swamp out the recorded reverb, I would recommend not using RTS except possibly for its closure value on the last note of a phrase.

It's not clear to me regarding the approaches suggested by Theo and others (involving creating separate instruments and such) that you still won't have a number of problems. If I can get everyone to temporarily set aside your fixation on the reverb added by release samples and think in terms of natural phrase endings instead, you really shouldn't be trying to use RTS to add reverb (either between inside notes or at the end of the phrase). If I was to add something to SIPS to utilize release samples, it would only be for the purpose of producing natural endings, not for adding reverb to the dead spots. Again I emphasize that you should add the reverb last from the outside. Part of the reason we're having all this trouble with RTS is that your samples contain too much reverb and you've therefore lost flexibility. In the case of the SLS, you now have the means to make beautiful legato connections between the notes but, the recorded reverb is getting in the way. So, you're trying to fix this by somehow blending the RTS into the equation.

In real legato playing, the 'inside notes' *do not release *and therefore one should not trigger any release samples. So why is everyone clamoring for them in the 'inside'? The answer is for the reverb they contain (which is a poor reason to want them).

Now, Stefan (sbkp) brings up another issue that shows you why a fix solely outside of the script is going to get you into trouble. viz



> Another difficulty here is that since the SIPS script "mono-ifies" the part, then to the degree that notes overlap, the ends of notes in the SIPS part will not coincide with the triggering of the release trails. In other words, the release trails will be late, depending on how much overlap there is.
> - Stefan



Of course if you use the Key-Up/Btime Release Mode of the SLS then Stefan has a valid point. On the other hand if you use the RlsFade knob setting to control the release mode, then it's the XTime and RlsFade settings that determine when the 'old note' hits its release phase. Actually, the script is in the best position to 'know' when you are ending the phrase. It would not be difficult to modify the script so that it will then trigger a release sample if that's approriate. But, because of the way NI has implemented RTs, it will likely also require some companion mods to the instrument. The problem with this is, probably about half of you are expecting the RTs to provide reverb more than you are interested in natural endings. Again this is brought on by the unfortunate situation of having too much reverb recorded with the samples in the first place. So at this point, I'm not sure that modifying SIPS to accomodate RTS is a good idea. Probably half of you would like it and the other half would say it doesn't do the job. We might make it a user option, this would satisfy the 50% of you that feel as I and Nils feel, but the other 50% would just have to turn it off and keep complaining that you have to give up your built-in reverb to use
SIPS. 

In the best of worlds, all effects (stereo/mono/position, reverb, vibrato, etc, etc) should be added after the fact under your control. In the real world, many of these effects were found wanting so library developers decided to build them in. This makes their instruments sound ever so beautiful but very inflexible. The big problem is you can't remove these effects once they are added, you can only try to bury them.

Maybe what we should do is to let this debate continue for a while and see if any concensus seems to form and then act accordingly. Right now I think this whole issue is still too controversial for a meek, mild-mannered individaul like me to get involved in :wink: .

God Bless,

Bob

PS



> just exploring, actually I find great ehnancement on ewqlso 1st edition patches.
> 
> Very very good, congrats guys.
> 
> As a feedback, I find the clarinet 1 presets the most usable, because i hear less clearly bend excursion.
> 
> Thanks a lot for it!
> 
> Luca


That's interesting Luca, Clarinet 1 is the only preset I did. It was what I originally used to develop the scripts. I was going to make a demo using it but Theo, Andrew, and Martin kept me so busy that I never got to do anything musical with the script, they had all the fun while I sweated over the ones and zeros :wink:


----------



## jamriding

A belated *very* warm welcome to "Big Bob".


----------



## ComposerDude

Big Bob, reading all of this with great interest. Don't have K2 here yet, but definitely will. Fascinating work, and thanks for your generosity!

-Peter


----------



## Big Bob

Hey Guys, ******WARNING******

I finally got a chance to take off my scripting hat and put on my musician hat, and, started using SIPS. And first thing out of the gate I found a bug :oops: .

I've already sent Theo an update but I don't know how long it will take for it to appear.

There is an error in the sustain pedal logic that can cause notes to hang if you have been using the pedal and you stop your sequencer in the middle of a note among other things. If you have trouble with this sort of thing and you have an urgent need to fix it before Theo has the update available, post a call for help and I'll tell you how to fix it (it's a very simple edit).

Sorry about this but this wasn't my first mistake and I'm sure it won't be my last.

Bob

BTW This problem won't bother you at all if your sustain pedal outputs zero when it's up (and most do). But, strictly speaking the MIDI spec says 0..63 is an up pedal and 64..127 is a down pedal. The SLS was comparing CC64 > 0 and assuming that was a down pedal (whereas it should have been CC64 > 63)..


----------



## José Herring

Only one bug. You've got a better record than 99.9% of all the other developers out there. Any they charge good money.

I say you're still doing okay. No need to be ashamed.


Jose


----------



## Big Bob

Thanks Jose,



> Only one bug. You've got a better record than 99.9% of all the other developers out there. Any they charge good money.
> 
> I say you're still doing okay. No need to be ashamed.
> 
> 
> Jose


 but more accurately it's only *one bug that I know about *(so far). There will probably be more but, I try.

Bob


----------



## Nick Phoenix

Big Bob @ Mon Apr 17 said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Just to play devil's advocate here, let me open-up some additional avenues of thought about release samples. I notice how everyone seems to equate release samples with reverb tails. No doubt the cause of this thinking is strongly influenced by how most libraries have implemented release samples. So let me digress a little from reality and first advance some theory.
> 
> The main motivation for introducing RTs to sampling technology should have been to solve one simple problem (out of a whole host of similar problems with trying to make sampled music sound real). When you have only a single sample of a note recorded, you are limited by a number of things that make the resulting sound less than authentic. In a real performance, the notes played (as a minimum) have different attacks, different durations and different closures. For purposes of this discussion, I want to focus on the closures.
> 
> With only a single sample, you are stuck with one attack, one length, and one closure. We try to work around this problem in various different ways. For example we use multiple samples with different articulations and/or we vary the Attack segment of an AHDSR. But, let's focus on the closure problem. Let's say that we have a sample that might have been held for 5 seconds (when it was recorded) but we want to play it for say 1.2 seconds. To do that, we again resort to our trusty AHDSR. But the problem is that the closure now is 'artificial'. We are simply rapidly turning down the volume of a sustained note in the hopes that it will sound the same as when a performer ends his note. We could try to solve this problem, like we do the attack problem, by keeping a gillion samples on hand that were recorded with various lengths of sustained notes. Then we pick the one that has the right length to fit the musical phrase we're trying to play. This of course is not a very practical solution because we would likely need way too many sample lengths. I think that this is the problem that RTs were originally introduced to solve.
> 
> The idea would be to record a real release separately, or we could simply grab the end of our 5 second sample and put it somewhere that we could trigger when we wanted it. So, when we finish our 1.2 second note and lift the key, we want to start playing the release sample and crossfade it with the sustained sample. If done smoothly, we can now play notes of any duration (less than the max length of the recorded sample) and have them end with a real, recorded closure instead of a fake, release envelope version.
> 
> Unfortunately, many libraries have gone to recording samples with un-removable reverb and, their release samples have more of a reverb-tail sound than a simple played closure. While it may be nice to have the ambience of some beautiful hall, it's also very restrictive and very inflexible for the desktop musician. But, RTs are now the 'in thing' so the marketing types have jumped on the bandwagon. But most RTs are little more than a reverb tail put in its own group. This problem is similar to the vibrato problem. Early sampled sounds were almost exclusively recorded dry (wtih no reverb) and without vibrato. The idea being that you could then add a controllable amount of these effects to suit the situation. Actually, I think this really would still be the best way to produce sample libraries. One problem with adding vibrato after the fact has been that simple LFO vibrato generally sounds phoney. And, if you don't have decent reverb effects to add, then that can sound phoney also. So, rising to the occasion, sampled sounds now contain lot's of reverb and real recorded vibrato.
> 
> However, if you have high-quality reverb that you can add to dry samples, it will be far more flexible than trying to work with wet samples. Also, if you can synthesize a truly convincing vibrato, then you will be better off with vibrato-less samples. Recorded vibrato is nice, but, it's always the same and you have no control over when it comes in and no adjustment of its intensity with time. A lot of recent effort has been expended to improve the realism of add-on reverb. But, what good is it if all our sample libraries have been produced with un-removable reverb added?
> The techology for producing more convincing vibrato is now at hand also. The SVS is at least some humble beginnng in that direction.
> 
> So my two cents worth is this. Sample libraries ought to be recorded using M-S miking so you can easily use them as mono or stereo samples. Stereo is not always the better choice. Moreover, sample libraries ought to be recorded dry (if they're only recorded one way) or both dry and wet so you have a choice. Sustained samples should be recorded without vibrato (if they're only recorded one way) or with and without vibrato so that again you have a choice. If release samples are provided, they ought to be in both flavors of wet and dry.
> 
> Now, if such were the case, I would use release samples only to provide authentic closure and not to add a reverb tail. BTW you can take any good sampled sound that's recorded fairly dry, and make your own release samples from it (provided that the recorded notes have real genuine closures).
> 
> All this being said, let me also say that if adding some code to SIPS to handle release samples (perhaps along with some instrument edits) would actually be beneficial, you can rest assured that it will likely happen. But, remember that what we're after is realism, not using RTs just because they're there. Because of equating RTs with reverb, I think this whole thing is getting muddied up. This is why I think that if used at all, RTs should only be applied to the last note of each phrase and not
> 
> God Bless,
> 
> Bob



Bob, Vienna is recoding samples exactly the way you suggest and they have proven that this method has great advantages and great disadvantages. The reason that EWQLSO is popular is because of the hall. The samples themselves have reverb built into the body of the sample and the release trail has the release of the instrument/s and the reverb of the hall mixed together. When, you remove the release trail, you have to add artificial reverb to everything to recreate the tail and when you do this you are double reverberating the body of the sample. This can sound cool in moderation, but it can also sound bad. I hear your scripts are incredible. We are working on our own and we probably have alot to learn from you. But our scripts will work with release trails. It's worth it for us to include them. In our case, it's not a marketing ploy. You have a good point with vibrato, although your arguments do not apply to sampled sections.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

The best answer I've heard so far, certainly for violin section, is a combination of both.


----------



## Thonex

Nick Phoenix @ Mon Apr 17 said:


> Big Bob @ Mon Apr 17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I hear your scripts are incredible. We are working on our own and we probably have alot to learn from you. But our scripts will work with release trails. It's worth it for us to include them.
Click to expand...


Hi Nick... it's great to see you here on this thread. You'll be happy to know that I used only EWQLSO Gold Pro XP on anything that was Legato in the HighSieeras demo mp3.

I noted that earlier in the thread you mentioned you looked forward to trying out this script. Did you have a chance yet?

Would love to know your thoughts.

Cheers,

T


----------



## Nick Phoenix

That's great! I haven't tried them yet, because I have been busy sampling things in the new East West Studios. Next week.


----------



## Thonex

Nick Phoenix @ Mon Apr 17 said:


> Next week.



That's great!! Look forward to your input.

Of course, you realize, now that you said EWQLSO is going to have thier own legato tool that will trigger release tails... Big Bob will update his current script by 8 a.m. tomorrow morning... it will include intelligent Release Trigger code that not only triggers release samples on K2 but will also trigger releases on other computers (cross platform) attached to a LAN or WAN with 100% sample accuracy latency compensation no matter what sample format or the host is. :shock:  :lol: 

T


----------



## Big Bob

Hey Thonex,



> Of course, you realize, now that you said EWQLSO is going to have thier own legato tool that will trigger release tails... Big Bob will update his current script by 8 a.m. tomorrow morning... it will include intelligent Release Trigger code that not only triggers release samples on K2 but will also trigger releases on other computers (cross platform) attached to a LAN or WAN with 100% sample accuracy latency compensation no matter what sample format or the host is.


You forgot to mention that it will also wash windows, wash your car, and take out the trash :razz: 

And Hi Nick,



> The samples themselves have reverb built into the body of the sample and the release trail has the release of the instrument/s and the reverb of the hall mixed together.


 I was already aware of this, but, thanks for mentioning it for clarity.



> When, you remove the release trail, you have to add artificial reverb to everything to recreate the tail and when you do this you are double reverberating the body of the sample. This can sound cool in moderation, but it can also sound bad.


This I only partly agree with. If you are talking about the last note of a legato phrase, then yes. For the inside notes there is a problem. If you need to add the release sample sound to the end of each 'inside note', then I don't know how you can get a true legato sound from your script. Think of it this way, if the real instrument plays a legato phrase in the same hall, the performer will merely connect his notes and never release any until the phrase ends. Since release tails imply that the source sound goes to silence and the ambience follows suit shortly thereafter, when does that occur in a real legato phrase?



> But our scripts will work with release trails. It's worth it for us to include them. In our case, it's not a marketing ploy.


 I wish you every success with this effort. However, I think what you are actually going to end up with is something less than the best legato sound. The real problem I think lies with trying to connect one note to another in a convincing way in the presence of the recorded reverb. Things like crossfading and pitch bending are going to play havoc with the recorded reverb. So, I guess you propose to correct this by compounding the problem and adding release tails between the notes? I still think you would do better to first convincingly connect dry notes, then add the reverb. Why not use an IR reverb and get the IR for the EW hall and then bundled that with the library? 



> You have a good point with vibrato, although your arguments do not apply to sampled sections.


 Well that is cetainly true but SIPS stands for Solo Instrument Performance Suite. While you can use the SLS on section samples you can't use the SVS and expect to get a convincing vibrato. That would have to be done by multitracking a bunch of solo instruments. Also remember I said it would be better if libraries came with and without vibrato but I was referring to solo instruments. For section samples, you probably wouldn't want non-vibrato samples.

When it comes to sound and music, differences of opinion abound and that's probably a good thing. But, I will make a prediction. As MIDI/Sample processors like the KSP become more powerful and some of the old problems with things like legato playing, vibrato, articulation selection, repetition, etc become things of the past, sample libraries will revert back to dry samples recorded mostly without vibrato. If not, one thing will be fighting the other and everyone will be trying to find new ways to bury the undesired side effects. However, please let me add IMHO.

God Bless,

Bob


----------



## sbkp

Big Bob @ Mon Apr 17 said:


> Think of it this way, if the real instrument plays a legato phrase in the same hall, the performer will merely connect his notes and never release any until the phrase ends. Since release tails imply that the source sound goes to silence and the ambience follows suit shortly thereafter, when does that occur in a real legato phrase?



Bob,

If I understand what you're talking about here, it's certainly true that the ambience on the "inner" notes will fall off to zero. If the performer plays C-connected-to-D, the C will end, and the waves it threw off into the hall will continue to reverberate down to 0 while the D is playing and reverberating. And when the D ends, its waves will continue to reverberate. Aside from the actual transition between the notes (with pitch bends, etc), it's a pretty good approximation of what really happens.

Or am I misunderstanding you?

- Stefan


----------



## Nick Phoenix

"When it comes to sound and music, differences of opinion abound and that's probably a good thing. But, I will make a prediction. As MIDI/Sample processors like the KSP become more powerful and some of the old problems with things like legato playing, vibrato, articulation selection, repetition, etc become things of the past, sample libraries will revert back to dry samples recorded mostly without vibrato. If not, one thing will be fighting the other and everyone will be trying to find new ways to bury the undesired side effects."

There are tons of dry samples right now. Vienna has the most detailed dry library on the planet with intelligent software, convolution etc... and yet, many people are not convinced that that works for their music. By your logic, Vienna would have wiped out the competition. I think it will always be a trade off between great sound and great control and technical realism, that is until someone figures out how to get a really great dryish sound that captures the full spectrum and balance of the instrument or section. :wink:


----------



## Thonex

Big Bob @ Mon Apr 17 said:


> Why not use an IR reverb and get the IR for the EW hall and then bundled that with the library?



Now there's a good idea....

.... Nick??

T


----------



## Evan Gamble

sound stages seem best to me-enough ambience to give the samples life-but still allow flexibility. As opposed to Halls and viennas silent stage. 

Your new studio should be able to provide this I think Nick-which will be great.


----------



## TheoKrueger

The updated version with the Sustain Pedal fixes is up for download:

www.theokrueger.com/sips.htm

I've also added a small history section. Let me know if it's useful in any way


----------



## pdzl

Superlative work everyone involved and thank you for providing these technologies for free!

Can someone on the scripting team provide basic midi files per the pdf instròI[   7MïI[   7MðI[   7MñI[   7MòI[   7MóI[   7MôI[   7MõI[   7MöI[   7M÷I[   7MøI[   7MùI[   7MúI[   7MûI[   7MüI[   7MýI[   7MþI[   7MÿI[   7N I[   7NI[   7NI[   7NI[   7NI[   7NI[   7NI[   7NI[   7NI[   7N	I[   7N
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----------



## José Herring

Like anything else in samples release tails are just one more parameter you have to tweek in order to get a convincing performance. Sometims they stay, sometimes they go. Most of the time I just turn them down. But more often than that I just leave them alone.

It would seem to me that the best way to get legato going with release tails is to have the script apply only to the sampled notes and not to the tails. The problem being of course if there is an actual release of a note in the tail then you've got a problem of magnitude trying to get a convincing legato.

If EW is going to make this happen it would seem to me that not only does the script need to affect the transitions, but in the script there needs to be a suspension of the tail until the final note of the phrase as Big Bob suggest.

But Big Bob's aproach is only one aproach to legato. Frankly what Alex W. was doing was to borrow some sample material to use as transitional material. Remember his demos where pretty good and I do believe that he was using all the mic positions and the release tails in his horn demo.

Sooo.....it seems to me that on order to get a "complete" legato you'd have to replace the inner note release tail with perhaps and release tail that included the transitional "noises" and set up an intelligent switching script to decide which release group to trigger depending on the surrounding notes.

So the way I see it. Somewhere there needs to be a coming together of all the legato techniques proposed so far. Big Bob's legato is smooth. Vienna's more realistic though clunky and Alex W's version was somewhere in the middle and I have no doubt that further perfection of it is underway.


----------



## Nick Phoenix

pdzl @ Tue Apr 18 said:


> Nick Phoenix @ Mon Apr 17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are tons of dry samples right now. Vienna has the most detailed dry library on the planet with intelligent software, convolution etc... and yet, many people are not convinced that that works for their music. By your logic, Vienna would have wiped out the competition. I think it will always be a trade off between great sound and great control and technical realism, that is until someone figures out how to get a really great dryish sound that captures the full spectrum and balance of the instrument or section. :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can't agree with that at all personally. *Not all dry samples are equal.* Their recording equipment, the sound quality, the types of instruments/strings/etc. they used...they all have a huge impact on how the sounds sound. It's not just dry vs ambient recording. That is a secondary point in my opinion. That's like saying QL RA is equal to some crappy roland ethnic sample, because they're both dry recordings!
> 
> Just listen to any good real live pop/string orchestra and compare it with say Vienna. The difference is night and day, VSL or virtually any string library out there today compares horribly in many various smaller string set ups, and it has nothing to do with reverb/release trails either!
> 
> By the way can someone please do a real pop/string sample library that sounds great? Listen to some classics like the string orchestras in stuff like Nat King Cole's or As Time Goes By - Jimmy Durante or listen to any big budget Korean or Japanese TV/film they know how to do it right! This is the final frontier for string libraries in my opinion as ensembles are easier to fake. Nick we're looking at you since the production quality of EW/QL usually is superior to anything out there.
> 
> I think a lot of the professionals and biggest names here are using VSL as their main library with altiverb with stunning results - but it's an objective point. QLSO, VSL, SI all have strengths and weaknesses.
> 
> QLSO Gold and XP Pro is my main orchestral library. But to be frank, a lot of people here remove the trails for many reasons. I personally don't think the release trails are all that depending on what you're doing, again, a subjective point. I think the main draw of QLSO for me is the sound quality of it, the amount of content in it as far as instruments/goodies/etc and it has less to do with the release trails! I do like that it's recorded with instrument placement, but in some cases this does not work at all.
> 
> Not everyone wants to do typical big orchestra you know? (I need to get QLSO Platinum with the close mic positioning so I can change my panning). But my point is, some people think the hall is the selling point of QLSO, and others still, including myself do not for a cadre of reasons. And you know what? Working with this script has made turn off the release trails more than I ever had on several instruments and in some cases I like it better without, such as with the solo strings (but it depends on what kind of piece I am doing too). If I'm doing something with just QLSO or a big sounding orchestra with everything playing, I'll probably leave it as is. But if I'm mixing libraries or I want to do so something more intimate or heck if I just wanna use reverb to give it that unreal but cool sound then I'll turn it off. Real does not always mean better!
> 
> Again please don't take this as an attack against QLSO, I think it's a great library for certain/many things, I just don't think the release trails are as important as it's made out to be. If I had a choice I wish I could exchange the gold stage mics for the close mics.
> 
> *PS Nick* 90% of my music budget goes your products. I'm speaking my mind as a fan of your products, not as a critic.
Click to expand...


I agree with you. I was just trying to simplify the issue, because most people like the ambient stage sound.


----------



## José Herring

Well you have to understand. Not to toot my own horn or anything. :mrgreen:

No seriously. I'm a very accomplished clarinet player. At one time I was probably one of the best. Probably still am but I real don't practice much anymore. I studied clarinet with the principal clarinetist of the New York Philharmonic for 5 grueling years that practically broke me down that's why I say what I do because I've at least earned the right to say that I'm pretty damn good better than what most people would consider good. I entered the ranks of world class on my instrument.

Okay, enough bragging.

So as a clarinet player when you pass a stage of development your slurred(what the sampled world calls legato) notes become seemless. You keep your fingers close to the keys and when it's time to hit the next note you change instantanously so that there is little to know noticable transitional sounds. Once this is sort of down you'll then be able to get the fast note slurred virtuoso flare. The notes are so smooth and glide so well together that any fast run becomes a flurry of pitches.

So with that if you listen to the legato flute they went really overboard and some of the transitions just unclean. They blip. Like the player had their finger so high above the instrument then hammered them down or didn't cover the holes fast enough. It's clunky.

I think on the VSL website there's a rendition of Ravels Tambeau de Couperin. (sp). There's an old Chicago symphony recording of the piece from the '80's. If you could find that recording and compare the two you'll hear what I'm talking about.

Actually the Big Bob script has clean trasitions and I just finshed sequencing the sustain VSL oboe patch with it. I want to check it tomorrow to find out how close it is. I can't hear it cleaning because tonight I'm on headphones. Though you can't do virtuoso passages with it I does sound a little cleaner.

Listen to the snipets here and you'll hear that a "true" legato has much cleaner and much quicker transitions than what VSL has achieved. You'll hear the transition. That much is unavoidable but they should happen a lot quicker and a lot quieter.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000027N7/qid=1145349726/sr=1-9/ref=sr_1_9/002-2417386-0561646?v=glance&s=music (Woodwinds)


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## Daryl

So it's the actual recording of the transitions that you don't like. I understand what you're saying now.

Obviously I don't care, as I'm not a woodwind player, but I can see your point because when I hear people tell me how good the violin section samples from company X or Y are I just laugh it off, because I know that these people don't really know what they are talking about....!

D


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## handz

Begun, this Script War has!

I must try that script soon, thanx guys!


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## IvanP

Really, really generous from you guys, thks a million times


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## Christian Marcussen

jose - regarding legato transitions. The newly recorderd 'fast-legato' are likely to be closer to your liking.


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## José Herring

Christian Marcussen @ Tue Apr 18 said:


> jose - regarding legato transitions. The newly recorderd 'fast-legato' are likely to be closer to your liking.



Oh yeah. When's the release. Sounds promising. Clunky or not the flute legato is one of my fav sampled instruments. I use it everyday. So if they improve upon that..ohhh boy. Can't wait.

Jose


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## TheoKrueger

josejherring @ Tue Apr 18 said:


> So as a clarinet player when you pass a stage of development your slurred(what the sampled world calls legato) notes become seemless. You keep your fingers close to the keys and when it's time to hit the next note you change instantanously so that there is little to know noticable transitional sounds. Once this is sort of down you'll then be able to get the fast note slurred virtuoso flare. The notes are so smooth and glide so well together that any fast run becomes a flurry of pitches.



Woah cool... thanks for sharing that Jose... i wish i knew it before the preset making :razz:


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## Christian Marcussen

Well VI includes fast legato for almost all instruments. Woodwinds I (which is the one that includes one of the two flutes) is already out.


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## Hans Adamson

Here's an idea for the "inside" RT's:

I don't know exactly how the scripted legato works, but I believe it must do a simultaneous fade-out of the previous note with the fade-in of the new note.

Skip the fade-out of the released note, and instead trigger the release as a play_note function in the callback for the new note. That's the way the blending would occur in a real recording. Is this not possible?

(but then there would be an inconsistency with single notes - but maybe there could be some way around this)

Maybe a cancellation of the RT if two notes are played simultanesously for a sec and the an RT trigger by the new note's callback.


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## Thonex

Hans Adamson @ Tue Apr 18 said:


> Here's an idea for the "inside" RT's:
> 
> I don't know exactly how the scripted legato works, but I believe it must do a simultaneous fade-out of the previous note with the fade-in of the new note.
> 
> Skip the fade-out of the released note, and instead trigger the release as a play_note function in the callback for the new note. That's the way the blending would occur in a real recording. Is this not possible?
> 
> (but then there would be an inconsistency with single notes - but maybe there could be some way around this)
> 
> Maybe a cancellation of the RT if two notes are played simultanesously for a sec and the an RT trigger by the new note's callback.



Interesting idea Hans.

There would be a problem for long glisses though... when using a long X-fade between notes, the Release tail would end before the X-fade was completed leaving a gap. Also... how does pitching the reverb tails of release samples sound? I wouldn't know.. I haven't tried it.

Also... this may be problematic for fast passages.

Just thinking out load here.

T


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## Hans Adamson

well so,

if there is gliss
make fade out
do not trigger release note
end if


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## Thonex

Hans Adamson @ Tue Apr 18 said:


> well so,
> 
> if there is gliss
> make fade out
> do not trigger release note
> end if



Damn.... whay didn't I think of that!!!!  

T


----------



## nadeama

This might not be what is causing your problem at all, but I remember a couple of times during testing when I couldn't hear the legato transitions only to realize that I had forgotten to correctly set the range of the instrument. That might be the first thing to check. 

Also, the transitions can be much less apparent if you use the script on instruments that have a slow attack. In that case, the solution is to use the Offset parameter (but Kontakt has to be in Sampler Mode in order to use it).


----------



## Thonex

pdzl @ Tue Apr 18 said:


> pdzl @ Mon Apr 17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Superlative work everyone involved and thank you for providing these technologies for free!
> 
> Can someone on the scripting team provide basic midi files per the pdf instructions that include the basic midi cc parameters?
> 
> I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong but sometimes I hear the script doing something and sometimes I do not.
> 
> I also tried this on my Gold XP pro, sometimes I got it working sometimes nothing happened.
> 
> I tried loading my RA Erhu using the violin preset and nothing happened other than the forced monophonic (one note at a time). However, I did not hear anything going on at all with the note to note transitions.
> 
> Basic help on this aspect in the way of midi files would help a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry to ask this again, but I think it got lost in the shuffle of the earlier page.
> 
> Thank you in advance for any help here,
Click to expand...


I might be able to dig up those midi files... but not at the moment... I have a Friday deadline. Maybe next week if you can wait till then. 

Try to posy reproducible steps to get the anomalies you are describing.

Thanks,

T


----------



## Big Bob

Hi Guys,

After reading the latest posts, I'm beginning to wonder if I'm running into a buzzsaw here. I sure hope I haven't stepped on anyone's toes with my soapbox monologues. And, I sure don't want to touch off World War III (I think that IRAN can handle that all by themselves). Please remember that anything I say is always qualified by IMHO, and, opinions vary, batteries are not included, and some assembly may be required.

Now with that out of the way, I'm first going to paste-in a response I left earlier today for rJames because I think it applies to much of what has been posted in this thread.
**********************************************************
Hi rJames, 


Quote:
Every note in a legato phrase has reverb (in a real situation). When a note plays (no matter how short of a time) it continues to bounce around in the room. 


That I agree with. And, I love to be agreeable but ... 


Quote:
When a legato transition is played, that too bounces around the room. So in a slow legato passage, say a half note that moves up a 5th to a nother half note, the 
"connection" reverb is minimal compared to the bottom note or the top notes reverb tail. 


I'm afraid I have to totally disagree with your 2nd statement above. When two notes are connected as they are in a legato phrase, the sound continues between the notes. While it is true that the room echo-train still contains the influence of the old note, the old note didn't just stop as it does when the instrumentalist plays a separate note. Therefore, to fold in a release sample at the end of the first note when it immediately connects to the next note does not represent the true physics of the situation. What you really need in addition to release samples are transition samples. 

This whole thing starts to get very messy and it's all because the reverb was recorded with the sample and therefore only represents the reverb picture for the way the sample was played. The same holds true for the release samples. They only contain the correct reverb picture for an ending note situation. Now here we are trying to play notes (the way they weren't playing when they were recorded) and we want to somehow 'bend' the recorded reverb to sound like it would have, had the instrumentalist played the notes the way we're playing them now. 

This problem presents the strongest case for recording samples dry. Don't add the reverb until the source material is made to sound as you want it. Then the reverb will match the performance. I realize that once a library is recorded with reverb, there's no removing it and so you are stuck with having to use inventive, band-aids to trick the ears. But, please recognize what the real problem is. When you record a sample with reverb and other effects such as vibrato, etc, you must also realize that while it may sound very nice when played back as recorded, it's also very inflexible. 

For a very simple example to illustrate this, you could buy a quality CD with a nice recording of a beautiful symphony orchestra playing say The William Tell Overture. Now that recording has all skilled performers playing real instruments with real legato passages, real vibrato, etc. Now, take that recording and make it into a recording of 'The Poet and Peasant Overture'. Won't be too easy to do, right? My point here is what we want is not only quality sounds but lots of flexibility. Recording reverb and vibrato are steps toward inflexibility. If we can produce these effects any other way, we should not record them with the samples or at least offer it both ways. 
****************************************************************

Let me just add this. When I say that samples should be recorded dry I mean with as little reverb as possible while still retaining everything that's needed later to 'reconstruct' the sound. The more fundamental our kit of parts, the more we can do with it. This of course assumes that we can do things like add reverb, vibrato, etc. Now, if recording a sample dry and then adding reverb causes us to lose something important, that's another matter. But, read the post by pdzl. Dry samples doesn't have to mean poor samples (but often does because many earlier samples weren't all that great and almost all early samples were recorded at least fairly dry). This tends to make us equate dry samples with poor samples but such need not be the case.

In any case, I'm glad to see such lively discussions as you guys are having and the divergence of opinions expressed are healthy and should be beneficial to us all in the end.

God Bless, 

Bob


----------



## kid-surf

Nick Phoenix @ Mon Apr 17 said:


> There are tons of dry samples right now. Vienna has the most detailed dry library on the planet with intelligent software, convolution etc... and yet, many people are not convinced that that works for their music. By your logic, Vienna would have wiped out the competition. I think it will always be a trade off between great sound and great control and technical realism, that is until someone figures out how to get a really great dryish sound that captures the full spectrum and balance of the instrument or section. :wink:





Nick, I'd like to make a comment about that....

I have many of your libs. And I generally like much about many of them. 

But.... 

There are times when I have a hard time using your stuff because it forces me into a certain style of mix. I "get" why the orchestral stuff is recorded as it is (and that's what I like about it), and the percussion type stuff too. I really like the room sound on that stuff.

But on some of the instruments that are meant to be smaller, I find them to be too "room-tone-y" at times. I know you are tying to please a whole lotta people in one shot (maybe your own ears first) but I wish you'd move the mics just a few inches closer on that intimate stuff.  (or is the room tone getting mixed 'up' later?)

Sometimes it strikes me as more Trailer/TV than film is all..... a little "too" big sometimes. Maybe you could do some patches that aren't so big in the future. Part of what 'I' like about some of those dyer libs is that they let me decide how the mix is gonna be.

Or maybe I just like film mixes that most people don't? :D It could very well be that people would complain if you did what I'm asking.....  but I figure I'll throw it out there anyway. I dunno, it may be that people are so used to your sound that they would think it sounds less impressive out of the box and therefore give it a bad grade? I really don't know what others like..........

There's also the fact that all your stuff mixes well "together", and maybe makes it easier to work with 'just' your stuff (less mixing). Maybe that's the plan? 

I just like my stuff to sound somewhat unique at the mix... is all.... I don't wanna "sound" like everyone else.



Jay


----------



## Thonex

Hi Kid-Surf,

Maybe the close mikes on Platinum would do the trick for you?

T


----------



## TheoKrueger

Here's another idea to handle releases:

The script could hold in a variable %P what was the most recent played note.

When you play a new overlapping note and the new 'note on' event comes in, the script will play the release sample of the previous note stored in %P on top of the new, currently playing note. This way we get rid of the "overlapping means the release would come in later" problem.

When we reach the end of a phrase (no overlapping), the script will simpy play the release right after the last 'note off' event.

Then the variable gets cleared and the new phrase starts without a release trail.

We don't need to program the releases as releases anymore using this way.. they become ordinary samples that follow their volume envelope. It's just the triggering that changes.

-
So to sum it up:

Current note = %P

If new overlapping note is played = Play %P on 'note on'

If not overlapping = Play %P on 'note off', Clear %P


----------



## Scott Rogers

..........


----------



## kotori

Bob, you say in the documentation that the script is open source and free. But does that mean that it's free to use and modify the script as long as the changes are also made public (like GPL) or does it mean that anyone is free to incorporate the scripts into a commercial product without disclosing any changed source code?


----------



## pdzl

Thonex @ Tue Apr 18 said:


> pdzl @ Tue Apr 18 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pdzl @ Mon Apr 17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Superlative work everyone involved and thank you for providing these technologies for free!
> 
> Can someone on the scripting team provide basic midi files per the pdf instructions that include the basic midi cc parameters?
> 
> I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong but sometimes I hear the script doing something and sometimes I do not.
> 
> I also tried this on my Gold XP pro, sometimes I got it working sometimes nothing happened.
> 
> I tried loading my RA Erhu using the violin preset and nothing happened other than the forced monophonic (one note at a time). However, I did not hear anything going on at all with the note to note transitions.
> 
> Basic help on this aspect in the way of midi files would help a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry to ask this again, but I think it got lost in the shuffle of the earlier page.
> 
> Thank you in advance for any help here,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I might be able to dig up those midi files... but not at the moment... I have a Friday deadline. Maybe next week if you can wait till then.
> 
> Try to posy reproducible steps to get the anomalies you are describing.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> T
Click to expand...


Thank you, this would be highly appreciated!


----------



## Big Bob

kotori @ Wed Apr 19 said:


> Bob, you say in the documentation that the script is open source and free. But does that mean that it's free to use and modify the script as long as the changes are also made public (like GPL) or does it mean that anyone is free to incorporate the scripts into a commercial product without disclosing any changed source code?



Hi Nils,

There is of course nothing preventing someone from building on SIPS and then keeping what they did secret for whatever reason. I'm more concerned about people openly modifying SIPS and not identifying it properly so that it will result in a proliferation of scripts that are all different but identified the same as the original. I tried to address this concern in the first two paragraphs on page 31 of the manual.

As far as someone repackaging SIPS for profit, I would rather they didn't but, I suppose someone will. However, my feeling is that as long as the original is distributed free, the commercial version will have to compete against it. So unless the commercial version(s) are superior in some way, why would anyone want to buy them when they can get SIPS free? Seems like it would be a poor investment on someone's part. Just because someone may have a 'hot' idea of how to improve SIPS (that they don't want to share, or at least not for free), doesn't guarantee success. SIPS will also improve with age and I think anything they can do, we can do better. By 'we' I mean the K2 community, because that's who SIPS belongs to.

All I can say for sure is the original version and all updates (that I have anything to do with) will continue to be free. Actually, I'm flattered to think that anyone would want to 'pirate' these scripts. It must mean that we're on the right track :wink: .

God Bless,

Bob


----------



## kotori

Hi Bob,
If you really want to hinder commercial versions to spread I guess you could simply put a stricter license on it. I just wondered since you used the term 'open source' but didn't specify any license. But I guess you're right - any commercial player would have to compete with the open source version and without a Big Bob in their developer camp they wouldn't stand a chance :wink: 

Nils


----------



## Thonex

Bob, I think that you should have an agreement or state in the header AND he FIRST page of the PDF that if a someone wants use this code for profit... then they have to get your written permission. Otherwise they can just change the GUI, tweak a couple parameters and lock it and just say "it's better than anything out there... ".

If they know that there is a checks and balances they might not be so inclined.

My 2 cents.

T


----------



## Big Bob

Now here's a post to try to 'clear the air' with rJames and any others that I may have 'rankled' with my little 'soapbox monologues'.

I am in no way suggesting that you guys should throw out your existing sample libraries just because they haven't been recorded dry. Poor-quality dry samples are even more problematical than quality samples recorded a bit too wet. I do not personally own any of the orchestral libraries so I only know what I hear about them. I know many of you have the EWQL stuff and from what I hear it's 'top drawer' in quality and, that's worth a lot.

However, when I walked into this forum there was quite a lively debate going on about release samples and their pros and cons. I also felt there was a lot of misinformation floating around as to their role in the first place and, more recently, what should be done with them when using a legato script.

My little monologues were intended to 'set the stage' for what we will try to do about this problem. Before I begin to kick around proposed script modifications, I want to be sure that everyone understands what the real problem is. That's not the same thing as knowing some things you can do to make it not sound so bad. When we know the truth about why it doesn't sound so good, we're in a much better position to do something about it. I'm afraid that some of you thought I was saying the only thing that could be done was to throw out your library and start all over, but, that was not my intention. I am merely trying to identify the real problem and at the same time giving you some food for thought about what to look for in the future.

I intend to post a list of proposed improvements to SIPS that have been collecting and I think doing something that will enable the script to sound better when used with the EW samples will be one of the items on that list. But keep in mind, that while the objective will be to make it sound 'right', this may or may not involve using release samples for the 'inner' notes. I simply want everyone to keep an open mind about this. The missing release samples are not really the culprit, although we may have to use them to fake it.

So hang in there guys, improvements are forthcoming. Unlike NI with their 'once a year' track record, SIPS will be revised on a fairly regular basis.

Have a Great Day Guys,

Bob


----------



## Thonex

Big Bob @ Wed Apr 19 said:


> So hang in there guys, improvements are forthcoming. Unlike NI with their 'once a year' track record, SIPS will be revised on a fairly regular basis.



Well thank goodness!!!!!! I was going to say.. "it been a whole 3 days and no updates????!!!!!" :shock: :shock: :lol: :lol: 

Seriously though.. I'm speechless... it's been 3 days and you already have a list in mind of changes and additions.... wow.

Don't ever change!

Cheers,

T


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## kotori

Thonex @ Wed Apr 19 said:


> Well thank goodness!!!!!! I was going to say.. "it been a whole 3 days and no updates????!!!!!" :shock: :shock: :lol: :lol:


LOL !! :lol:


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## Hans Adamson

Big Bob @ Tue Apr 18 said:


> I'm afraid I have to totally disagree with your 2nd statement above. When two notes are connected as they are in a legato phrase, the sound continues between the notes. While it is true that the room echo-train still contains the influence of the old note, the old note didn't just stop as it does when the instrumentalist plays a separate note. Therefore, to fold in a release sample at the end of the first note when it immediately connects to the next note does not represent the true physics of the situation. What you really need in addition to release samples are transition samples.



It is true that you will not get the actual "transition" between two notes, unless you record all intervals actually being played legato, like VSL has done. That is a performance detail. But if you end one note and begin another, the old note will continue 'live' for a short while in the room reverberation. That's what the release tail does. 

In the case of EWQLSO, the body of the new note will carry its own room reverbaration, and the old note reverbaration and the new note reverberation will be mixed, just like in the room. If there is a trouble playing a fast passage, the problem must be inherent in the recording technique, and an actual live recording of the music with the same mic setup should have the same problem.

I own neither of these libs, so I am only speaking theoretically.

Of course the implementation of the release samples plays a large part in how useful they can be. If they are poorly matched in level to the note level, everything will be wetter and more blurred in the transitions. But with perfectly implemented RT I don't see why they don't belong also in a legato phrase?


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## Big Bob

Thonex @ Wed Apr 19 said:


> Bob, I think that you should have an agreement or state in the header AND he FIRST page of the PDF that if a someone wants use this code for profit... then they have to get your written permission. Otherwise they can just change the GUI, tweak a couple parameters and lock it and just say "it's better than anything out there... ".
> 
> If they know that there is a checks and balances they might not be so inclined.
> 
> My 2 cents.
> 
> T



Hi Andrew,

Is that really going to hurt us in some way? Besides, isn't the 'horse already out of the barn'? You know I really appreciate all the wonderfully kind comments you guys have posted, and, those of you who have expressed a concern about someone 'stealing' this 'labor of love'. 

I guess I'm just not your normal, run-of-the-mill guy because I'm not at all concerned about such things. The Lord has been very good to me and I have everything I need and most of what I want. The Lord has also blessed me with a givng spirit and so I want to share what I have with others.

Many of you are very talented musicians and, unfortunately, not among the highest-paid people in the world (even though you should be). So I'm glad to share my work wtih you; in fact, I actually consider it a blessing. (I told you I was weird).

Many of you may have varying degrees of difficulty with learning the KSP and getting the most out of it. But, we are very blessed to have several very excellent programmers in the K2 community and from what I've seen, they also have a giving spirit. So, my thoughts go something like this. Let's just continue to help each other in whatever way we can and I'm sure bountiful gifts will flow from it.

But, if you find SIPS to be a valuable addition to your tool chest and you'd like to do something nice for me, there's always those links on page 31 :wink: 

God Bless,

Bob


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## rJames

Bob, don't worry about me being rankled. Sometimes I get a bit too rabid in discussions...my apologies.

It seemed like you were talking down to me as if I didn't understand the very simple concepts that we are talking about. But I guess you just use extreme examples in your arguments. I am a bit of an extremist myself. :mrgreen: 

The East-West samples are great sounding and I just don't want to have to throw out the baby with the bathwater. (I am the worst at using colloquialisms) (and bad at spelling)

To make things match we have to start bathing them in reverb. I try to keep reverb out of my equation.


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## Big Bob

Hans Adamson @ Wed Apr 19 said:


> Big Bob @ Tue Apr 18 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm afraid I have to totally disagree with your 2nd statement above. When two notes are connected as they are in a legato phrase, the sound continues between the notes. While it is true that the room echo-train still contains the influence of the old note, the old note didn't just stop as it does when the instrumentalist plays a separate note. Therefore, to fold in a release sample at the end of the first note when it immediately connects to the next note does not represent the true physics of the situation. What you really need in addition to release samples are transition samples.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is true that you will not get the actual "transition" between two notes, unless you record all intervals actually being played legato, like VSL has done. That is a performance detail. But if you end one note and begin another, the old note will continue 'live' for a short while in the room reverberation. That's what the release tail does.
> 
> In the case of EWQLSO, the body of the new note will carry its own room reverbaration, and the old note reverbaration and the new note reverberation will be mixed, just like in the room. If there is a trouble playing a fast passage, the problem must be inherent in the recording technique, and an actual live recording of the music with the same mic setup should have the same problem.
> 
> I own neither of these libs, so I am only speaking theoretically.
> 
> Of course the implementation of the release samples plays a large part in how useful they can be. If they are poorly matched in level to the note level, everything will be wetter and more blurred in the transitions. But with perfectly implemented RT I don't see why they don't belong also in a legato phrase?
Click to expand...


Now there's a post I think I can live with. And as to the last sentence, I'm not sure they don't (if processed properly). It may be the best way to 'recover' what the crossfade might otherwise 'notch out'. Please refer to my last post and I think you'll see that we aren't too far apart here. Again, I'm just trying to get everyone on the same page when we begin to tackle this issue. Isn't this a fun process?

God Bless,

Bob


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## Big Bob

rJames @ Wed Apr 19 said:


> Bob, don't worry about me being rankled. Sometimes I get a bit too rabid in discussions...my apologies.
> 
> It seemed like you were talking down to me as if I didn't understand the very simple concepts that we are talking about. But I guess you just use extreme examples in your arguments. I am a bit of an extremist myself. :mrgreen:
> 
> The East-West samples are great sounding and I just don't want to have to throw out the baby with the bathwater. (I am the worst at using colloquialisms) (and bad at spelling)
> 
> To make things match we have to start bathing them in reverb. I try to keep reverb out of my equation.



Me too! But, just stay cool, I may have a way to recover both the 'baby' and the 'bathwater', just so you understand that doing this sort of thing is analogous to trying to 'make a silk purse out of a sows ear' :wink: 

God Bless,

Bob


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## rJames

I don't know if this thread is the place to go on "bugs".

Maybe this one is known.

I have found that after working on a piece for a while, the scripts put a giagantic load on the CPU. I didn't realize what it was last night because I had a bunch of Absynth and Atmosphere instances...I deleted them.

then I quit and restarted Logic and all was well.

Today, I have realized that it is the script going wild. At one point it went into a loop and the CPU was spiking when no music was playing. That was when I realized what must be happening.

Is it possible that your "sustain pedal bug" (which has been fixed but I have not downloaded) also appears if I stop my piece while in the middle of a legato transition or something to that effect?

I deleted the scripts and reloaded them. Now they are working well again and no CPU spikes.

PS. Is the "Save As" that is in the preset list supposed to do something.


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## rJames

AFter all this discussion about RTs, I just realized that I don't understand how the script is handling them.

I haven't deleted or changed the RTs.

How does the script work with the xfades and bends when there is an RT group on since it is a monophonic instrument?

Is it automatically not playing the RT because the note is overlapped?

The cross has already begun when the RT is called so it seems that the RT would act as another note and the legato transition would again be triggered to go back to the original note.

I have the RTs intact, no modification and it sounds fine to me? What are my destroyed ears not hearing?


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## choc0thrax

Post an example of what you consider to be "fine".


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## Thonex

choc0thrax @ Thu Apr 20 said:


> Post an example of what you consider to be "fine".



Who are you talking to?


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## choc0thrax

The guy with the post before mine.


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## Tod

rJames @ Thu Apr 20 said:


> AFter all this discussion about RTs, I just realized that I don't understand how the script is handling them.
> 
> I haven't deleted or changed the RTs.
> 
> How does the script work with the xfades and bends when there is an RT group on since it is a monophonic instrument?
> 
> Is it automatically not playing the RT because the note is overlapped?
> 
> The cross has already begun when the RT is called so it seems that the RT would act as another note and the legato transition would again be triggered to go back to the original note.
> 
> I have the RTs intact, no modification and it sounds fine to me? What are my destroyed ears not hearing?


Hi rJames,

This is what the whole thing is about regarding RTs. During the trasition of the notes the RTs will have a tendency to cover up or mask the legato transition. The thing is you can leave them in there and they sound okay but your not getting the full advantage of the script's transition other than the fade out & in.. The degree that you may be loseing depends on how much gliss and bending might be going on.

I've done some experimenting useing a little reverb along with the cc12 thingy and it works, but not as well as just useing reverb by itself. The reason is because the transition for the most part is quite subtle and the RTs tend to mask it.

About the only reason to use RTs is if it ends up sounding just to wet. Then I guess try and decide which is worse, the verb or the RTs.

In my experimenting I've been useing just one Gold instrument at a time and it doesn't sound bad with verb but how it would sound biy the time you get several instruments with verb it may be different.

incidently, I've been keeping my overlaps very short so the RTs don't sound delayed.


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## rJames

Confirmed, the script needs to be reset every now and then.

ONe of my clarinets stopped playing while the other was OK. I reset both scripts.

Tod, I am doing a legato ostinato and the script just rounds off the edges.

I don't know if there is a bend or not.

Let me post it so you guys with great ears can tell me.

Just a minute.


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## rJames

choc0thrax @ Thu Apr 20 said:


> Post an example of what you consider to be "fine".



I don't need to know how it compares to a real clarinetist. For me, its more about comparing it against EW Gold clarinet. Is it an improvement over that?

clarinets soloed

http://digitmusic.net/music/ClarinetOstinato.mp3

clarinets in context (fast forward through 4 bars)

http://digitmusic.net/music/ClarinetOstinato2.mp3


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## José Herring

Sounds great. Very nice interval. Good connection. Does it sound perfect. No. But it doesn't sound fake. That's what's important here.

edit: I had the script cut out on me once. I was trying to delete and instrument while the script was playing in another instrument. But that was unusual and I've had other problems not related to the script doing the same action--deleting an instrument while Kontakt is playing.

I used the script on multiple instruments for several hours on Tuesday and it worked great.


Jose


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## rJames

that's good to hear from a clarinet player. I can't hear the finesse that most of you guys can.

So, back to my question. Why are the RTs working at all. Seems to me there should be strange behavior.


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## Big Bob

Hi Guys,

Regarding the 'bumps in the night' that you are reporting, I'll tell you what is known so far. Incidentally, if you haven't read the 'readme file please rename it to the 'don't-readme' file lest anyone come across it and take it at face value :wink: .

Regarding the script 'going crazy' or 'freezing up' or drastically increasing the CPU load, etc. First off, if you are using the sustain pedal, for example to play a legato series of notes of the same pitch (as described on page 10 of the manual), the polyphony will rise by almost twice the number of notes played while the pedal is down, but once you release the pedal you can press it again and start over fresh. However, if you have a sustain pedal that doesn't put out zero when released, you could be running afoul of the bug I corrected when I released V1051 of the SLS. The MIDI spec says an up pedal should put out a code from 0 to 63 and a down pedal should put out a code from 64 to 127 (if memory serves me right). But, the SLS had an error in that, at one place in the code, the CC64 was simply checked against zero. viz if CC64 > 0 consider the sustain pedal on. This was changed in V1051 to if CC64 > 63, consider the pedal on.

Now in the readme (or recently renamed don't-readme file), you may want to look at 2nd half of known issue #3. This problem, so far has been noticed only by a few people running Sonar and it may also be more likely to occur with large setups (ie lots of instruments and tracks going). Theo also used to like to 'tinker around' inside the K2 mapping editor and such while his sequences were playing. As indicated in the 'readme' (or 'don't-readme' file) this problem could well lie with K2 and since an update is to be forthcoming soon, maybe it will go away. So, we didn't want to delay the release of SIPS any longer. But, please don't get me wrong, this problem could also be a bug in SIPS. The problem however is getting a reliable procedure to produce it with my test setup.

Among the development team members, Theo was the only one who could produce it and he and I tried quite a number of back and forth 'try this' and 'try that' experiments in an effort to get a handle on it, but to no avail. I have recently asked Tod (who also is using Sonar) to do some tests to get ready for what we might have to do if the problem persists after the NI update. If any of you can find a reliable method of reproducing this problem, preferably with as simple a setup as possible, please post your procedure. If at all possible, I would like to have a procedure that exhibits the problem with K2 running standalone (so no sequencer interactions are involved). In other words, drive K2 over MIDI from your sequencer rather than using K2 as a plug-in.

Finally I should add that Theo has recently informed me that his semi-automatic 'band-aid' for clearing K2 when it gets all choked is *no longer working*. So, unlike it says in the readme file, don't contact Theo for his band-aid because I guess somewhere along the line of revision after revision, the band-aid must have stopped working.

Anyway, I'm sorry for those of you who might be suffering with this problem and I assure you, if it's in the scripts, it will get fixed.

God Bless,

Bob


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## Big Bob

rJames @ Thu Apr 20 said:


> that's good to hear from a clarinet player. I can't hear the finesse that most of you guys can.
> 
> So, back to my question. Why are the RTs working at all. Seems to me there should be strange behavior.


If you are using the normal Release Mode of the SLS (ie Knob òKT   7¾KT   7¾KT   7¾KT   7¾KT   7¾KT   7¾KT   7¾ KT   7¾!KT   7¾"KT   7¾#KT   7¾$KT   7¾%KT   7¾&KT   7¾'KT   7¾(KT   7¾)KT   7¾*KT   7¾+KT   7¾,KT   7¾-KT   7¾.KT   7¾/KT   7¾0KT   7¾1KT   7¾2KT   7¾3KT   7¾4KT   7¾5KT   7¾6KT   7¾7KT   7¾8KT   7¾9KT   7¾:KT   7¾;KT   7¾<KT   7¾=KT   7¾>KT   7¾?KT   7¾@KT   7¾AKT   7¾BKT   7¾CKT   7¾DKT   7¾EKT   7¾FKT   7¾GKT   7¾HKT   7¾IKT   7¾JKT   7¾KKT   7¾LKT   7¾MKT   7¾NKT   7¾OKT   7¾PKT   7¾QKT   7¾RKT   7¾SKT   7¾TKT   7¾UKT   7¾VKT   7¾WKT   7¾XKT   7¾YKT   7¾ZKT   7¾[KT   7¾\KT   7¾]KT   7¾^KT   7¾_KT   7¾`KT   7¾aKT   7¾bKT   7¾cKT   7¾dKT   7¾eKT   7¾fKT   7¾gKU   7¾hKU   7¾iKU   7¾jKU   7¾kKU   7¾lKU   7¾mKU   7¾nKU   7¾oKU   7¾pKU   7¾qKU   7¾rKU   7¾sKU   7¾tKU   7¾uKU   7¾vKU   7¾wKU   7¾xKU   7¾yKU   7¾zKU   7¾{KU   7¾|KU   7¾}KU   7¾~KU   7¾KU   7¾€KU   7¾KU   7¾‚KU   7¾ƒKU   7¾„KU   7¾…KU   7¾†KU   7¾‡KU   7¾ˆKU   7


----------



## Big Bob

I need to make an addendum to my last post, repeated here:



Big Bob @ Thu Apr 20 said:


> rJames @ Thu Apr 20 said:
> 
> 
> 
> that's good to hear from a clarinet player. I can't hear the finesse that most of you guys can.
> 
> So, back to my question. Why are the RTs working at all. Seems to me there should be strange behavior.
Click to expand...

If you are using the normal Release Mode of the SLS (ie Knob Setting), then the RlsFade knob determines when the prior note-off occurs (as depicted in figures 3 or 4 on pages 15 and 17 of the manual. For example, if you have XTime set to 350ms and RlsFade set to 50%, then when you play a second legato note, the first note receives a script-simulated 'up key' at 175 ms after you start the second nòK»   7ÖsK»   7ÖtK»   7ÖuK»   7ÖvK»   7ÖwK»   7ÖxK»   7ÖyK»   7ÖzK»   7Ö{K»   7Ö|K»   7Ö}K»   7Ö~K»   7ÖK»   7Ö€K»   7ÖK»   7Ö‚K»   7ÖƒK»   7Ö„K»   7Ö…K»   7Ö†K»   7Ö‡K»   7ÖˆK»   7Ö‰K»   7ÖŠK»   7Ö‹K»   7ÖŒK»   7ÖK»   7ÖŽK»   7ÖK»   7ÖK»   7Ö‘K»   7Ö’K»   7Ö“K»   7Ö”K»   7Ö•K»   7Ö–K»   7Ö—K»   7Ö˜K»   7Ö™K»   7ÖšK»   7Ö›K»   7ÖœK»   7ÖK»   7ÖžK»   7ÖŸK»   7Ö K»   7Ö¡K»   7Ö¢K»   7Ö£K»   7Ö¤K»   7Ö¥K»   7Ö¦K»   7Ö§K»   7Ö¨K»   7Ö©K»   7ÖªK»   7Ö«K»   7Ö¬K»   7Ö­K»   7Ö®K»   7Ö¯K»   7Ö°K»   7Ö±K»   7Ö²K»   7Ö³K»   7Ö´K»   7ÖµK»   7Ö¶K»   7Ö·K»   7Ö¸K»   7Ö¹K»   7ÖºK»   7Ö»K»   7Ö¼K»   7Ö½K»   7Ö¾K»   7Ö¿K»   7ÖÀK»   7ÖÁK»   7ÖÂK»   7ÖÃK»   7ÖÄK»   7ÖÅK»   7ÖÆK»   7ÖÇK»   7ÖÈK»   7ÖÉK»   7ÖÊK»   7ÖËK»   7ÖÌK»   7ÖÍK»   7ÖÎK»   7ÖÏK»   7ÖÐK»   7ÖÑK»   7ÖÒK»   7ÖÓK»   7ÖÔK»   7ÖÕK»   7ÖÖK»   7Ö×K»   7ÖØK»   7ÖÙK»   7ÖÚK»   7ÖÛK»   7ÖÜK»   7ÖÝK»   7ÖÞK»   7ÖßK»   7ÖàK»   7ÖáK»   7Öâ              òK»   7ÖäK»   7ÖåK»   7ÖæK»   7ÖçK»   7ÖèK»   7ÖéK»   7ÖêK»   7ÖëK»   7ÖìK»   7ÖíK»   7ÖîK»   7ÖïK»   7ÖðK»   7ÖñK¼   7ÖòK¼   7ÖóK¼   7ÖôK¼   7ÖõK¼   7ÖöK¼   7Ö÷K¼   7ÖøK¼   7ÖùK¼   7ÖúK¼   7ÖûK¼   7Ö


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## garylionelli

Hey Bob -- nice to see all the attention this great script is getting! 

One thing I've noticed in using it is that it's so exciting that it's easy to overuse the script, and put it on everything imaginable. This is hard to resist because legato capablity for sampled instruments is something that we've all had to do without from the beginning of time, and now that we have it, it's easy to go crazy with it. Might be a good idea if we take the time to build our own instruments that include multiple layers/articulations to add in some subtle attacks and pushes that will help to alleviate any hint of drunken-sailorish, or mini-moog-like gliss-laden compositions. I think the music will be all the better for it. A real flute player will mix in some staccato, lean into certain notes, etc., (depending on the composition of course) and this combination of articulations is what makes the performance convincing.

I'm really excited by all the notice that this script is getting, as I've had the privilege to see it develop over the last few months into something truly incredible. I think it's great that Bob is sharing this, and is not worried about one composer having an edge over another who doesn't have the script. Thanks Bob, for evening out the playing field!


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## Big Bob

Hi Gary, and thanks for the kind words.


re:


> One thing I've noticed in using it is that it's so exciting that it's easy to overuse the script, and put it on everything imaginable.



Did you see the very humorous post by Ned Bouhalassa? He said he got so carried away that when he ran out of instruments to use it on, he went out to his tool box and tried to play his hammer and saw legato.

Glad to see you join this forum Gary, it seems to be a jumping place, no?

God Bless,

Bob


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## Thonex

Big Bob @ Sun Apr 23 said:


> Glad to see you join this forum Gary, it seems to be a jumping place, no?



Yup... it's the best forum like this around.... shhhhhhh... don't tell anyone.... or they'll all be coming here :wink: 

T


----------



## garylionelli

Big Bob @ Sun Apr 23 said:


> Hi Gary, and thanks for the kind words.
> 
> 
> re:
> 
> 
> 
> Did you see the very humorous post by Ned Bouhalassa? He said he got so carried away that when he ran out of instruments to use it on, he went out to his tool box and tried to play his hammer and saw legato.
Click to expand...


Too funny!!!


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## Thonex

bumperoony


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## tmhuud

Lol. Wow - this is an old thread but so many unanswered questions here. What was the final outcome of the Legato Scripts for K2? Are they still available anywhere and do they or do they NOT work with EWQLSO? Just curious. Thanks to all who may or (may not) make them avaialble! 

cheers,


----------



## Big Bob

Hi Terry,

SIPS 2 is just about to be released but, read my posts in this thread
http://vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9478
regarding usage with the EW libraries.

God Bless,

Bob


----------



## tmhuud

Thanks Bob for your quick response. Amazing scripts you have to offer there. Wev'e worked on one ourselves for EWQLSO with limited success. I see Nick phoenix mentions in 2006 he was working on one as well? Wonder what ever became of it. Perhaps release tails are just too difficult to pilot around.


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## tfishbein82

Regarding Nick P., the legato scripting will be in the EWQLSO PLAY version. Oh, and will only work with release tails off...


----------

