# Which 88 key (Master-)Keyboard/Stagekeys or what fits?



## Snoobydoobydoo (Oct 6, 2020)

Currently i only used an Akai MPK261, which i bought half 
a year ago and some keys already started to squeak metallic
when letting them go.

So i could replace it for a new one and this new one has
has also a keybed that is uneven, the keys
on the right side are higher.... the quality seems to suck,
for almost 500$, its just not worth it for me.

The Akai MPK261 Keys are also not really suited for Piano,
its more luck than precise playing most of the time.

So im having a hard time finding a Keyboard thats sturdy,
and will be fine enough for pianoplaying (+orchestral work soon).

Anyway, i have looked everywhere and couldnt find a 61 key
one thats looking like a plastic toy. So i should go for an
88 one.

I dont need fancy controls, but the wheels are prob. a must
for Orchestral stuff (or i map the usual stuff to pedals).
They Keyboard shouldnt have the best of the best keybed at all,
but sturdy and well playable. 1k$ is what i could pay.

Stuff i considered:
-Kawai VPC1, it looks fine, but some people reported uneven 
velocity on keys, plus its pretty old (not a problem for me)
-Kawai MP7SE, looks fine
-Doepfer PK88, its so aged, i dont think its worth the price
anymore.

Stuff i considered not:
-Studiologic 88's, have a lot of bad reviews in terms of 
build quality and bad support over here
-Arturia, NI or Nectar, too much plastic

Stuff i cant buy, but would:
-Yamaha CP88! This one i love the most, besides Nord or similar.


When it comes to hardware, please note that i have bad
luck and get something that has some fault somewhere,
no matter where or what i buy :D That also excludes buying something
used. Any experiences or ideas?


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## DantheMekon (Oct 19, 2020)

I use an M-Audio Keystation 88. Nice key weight, good response and pretty good velocity control. You have to buy the sustain pedal separately and it's a bit on the chunky side, but it's worth a look IMO.


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## widescreen (Oct 19, 2020)

DantheMekon said:


> I use an M-Audio Keystation 88. Nice key weight, good response and pretty good velocity control. You have to buy the sustain pedal separately and it's a bit on the chunky side, but it's worth a look IMO.


Oh my god, I have also a Keystation but would never ever recommend it to someone who asks for 1k$ class. It's a 150$ low cost model. It is not bad, but definitely not comparable to weighted keys. And definitely a plastic bomber in every aspect!  Works for a noob like me, but a pianist would 

If he does not even like NI's S88 (FATAR-Keybed!) for its plastic components, how could that one fit?


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## DantheMekon (Oct 19, 2020)

I think I misread the original post, didn’t catch the kind of price bracket he was aiming for. Please disregard my comment.


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## Ostinato (Oct 19, 2020)

I stood by this decision until last week. The Kawai MP7SE is a great stage piano with a very good keyboard. The Doepfer LMK2+ was also in my selection, but in the end, as you have already written, too expensive for what was offered (applies to all Doepfer master keyboards). In the end, I decided on the Korg Krome EX 88.


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Oct 19, 2020)

It will be either an MP7-SE or the CP88 i hope, depends on what plays better in a store. Maybe a third/fourth option they have available. I have the best build quality experience with Yamaha Stuff in general...so eventually....

I would sacrifice a bit of playability/realistic touch for build quality, cause i see uneven keys everywhere. In a store there was this nice Nord, some keys already wobbled.


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## ChrisHarrison (Oct 29, 2020)

I love my NI S88 deeply.


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## widescreen (Oct 30, 2020)

christopherharriso said:


> I love my NI S88 deeply.


MkI or MkII?


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## jaketanner (Oct 30, 2020)

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> I would sacrifice a bit of playability/realistic touch for build quality, cause i see uneven keys everywhere. In a store there was this nice Nord, some keys already wobbled.


Hard to go by the in-store models..they get abused by non musicians also just banging on the keys...Best thing is buy from a place where you can easily return it if you don't like it.


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Oct 31, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> Hard to go by the in-store models..they get abused by non musicians also just banging on the keys...Best thing is buy from a place where you can easily return it if you don't like it.


So that would mean ordering online, what i dont want because the abuse of delivery „Experts“ here is existing. I mean i wouldnt buy a showroom model in a store, they need to open a fresh box for me heh.


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## jaketanner (Oct 31, 2020)

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> So that would mean ordering online, what i dont want because the abuse of delivery „Experts“ here is existing. I mean i wouldnt buy a showroom model in a store, they need to open a fresh box for me heh.


If you buy lets say from Sweetwater, they will send it either UPS or FedEx...you may have a choice if one is better than the other. You can return it within 30 days. With Zzounds.com you have up to 45 days to return an item...and you can also get up to 12 months of split payments.

What I meant about the floor models, is that they are not a good representation of what the keys feel like at times because they've been abused. I went through the same thing when searching...and now harder than ever with COVID...best of luck though.


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Nov 1, 2020)

Yea i understand, im from germany so i ordered a lot from thomann, but they sent me too much faulty stuff....i will hit a local store in january when i saved the cash for the CP88 or a Kawai.


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Dec 5, 2020)

Soo, went to a store which had the CP88 and the MP7SE yesterday.
And it will be the CP88,...doh. The MP7 felt cheap and all plastic, they key action felt 
wobbly and unrealistic. But i guess its the typical Kawaii feel (in cheap).
The decision was clear without testing too much.
Rolands felt ok, but too expensive for what they look like.
I liked the Korg SV-2, but again who needs valve distortion included on a keyboard...


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## jaketanner (Dec 5, 2020)

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Soo, went to a store which had the CP88 and the MP7SE yesterday.
> And it will be the CP88,...doh. The MP7 felt cheap and all plastic, they key action felt
> wobbly and unrealistic. But i guess its the typical Kawaii feel (in cheap).
> The decision was clear without testing too much.
> ...


The MP11 is a more fair comparison to the CP88...Kawai makes some of the best feeling keyboards on the market...never heard them described as cheap. But maybe the MP7 is not as well made as the MP11.

Anyway, can't go wrong with the Yamaha...If I recall, they are on the heavier side (feel wise)...I like that for piano, but if you try to play other instruments with heavy weighted keys it can get sluggish or feel weird.


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## emilio_n (Dec 5, 2020)

Quite happy with my Roland RD-2000.
I can use all the faders of the keyboard to control de CCs, the keybed is one of the best and the piano sounds integrated are cool when I don't want to power on the computer to play.


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## M_Helder (Dec 5, 2020)

Just bought Casio CDP-s100. Happy as hell.

The keyboard is better than NI S88 or Arturia, yet costs 1/3 of that price. The weight of the keys is finely balanced, not hard not soft, just right. I even managed to record some 16th drum patterns quiet easily. No bells and whistles though (encoders, faders and such), I would suggest buying a separate kit for that (still cheaper).

So far, my best investment, so check it out maybe, if you are still hunting for that “master keyboard”.


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## chimuelo (Dec 5, 2020)

Find the 88 note you like for size, then buy these.






Lab4Music


Sipario - Advanced MIDI Router




www.lab4music.it





Find the 88 you like for action.Then buy these.






Lab4Music


Sipario - Advanced MIDI Router




www.lab4music.it


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## ckett (Dec 5, 2020)

I'd second the recommendation for the Casio. Either the CDP-S100 or the PX-S1000/3000 have a really nice key action for the price. Light enough to play things other than piano sounds but just weighted enough to feel satisfied as a piano player. I've tried Native Instruments, Arturia, and others. Casio should be considered. The Korg D1 has a nice action as well. The Roland FPs and the A88 are solid but heavier action.


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Dec 5, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> The MP11 is a more fair comparison to the CP88


Yea, but the case and knobs are the same on the MP11 and i found them ridiculously cheap made. I played along on some Kawai E Pianos of all prices and they were not for me, somehow. Useable for sure but just not as Steinwayish as the Yamahas.


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Dec 5, 2020)

M_Helder said:


> Casio CDP-s100


Hmmm, my first keys ever were a Casio P100, which was lame, some keys happened to become faulty pretty early.
Ill have a look on the s100.


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## jaketanner (Dec 5, 2020)

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Yea, but the case and knobs are the same on the MP11 and i found them ridiculously cheap made. I played along on some Kawai E Pianos of all prices and they were not for me, somehow. Useable for sure but just not as Steinwayish as the Yamahas.


I never played around with the knobs actually, so don't know.


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Dec 5, 2020)

Playing on knobs can be fun, but if you rip them off, you better have an insurance.


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## jaketanner (Dec 5, 2020)

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Playing on knobs can be fun, but if you rip them off, you better have an insurance.


I don't gig live anymore, so in the studio I just a controller, but no knob play...LOL And I agree if you use them often, they need to be robust.


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## PaulieDC (Dec 5, 2020)

This may not matter much but as a piano player, keybed was super important to me in the decision. The Fatar TP40/WOOD in the StudioLogic SL88 Grand is SO nice that once you start playing you forget you are not on a real piano (OK, Garritan CFX and good cans help there as well). I have strong hands so playing in legato lines is no problem. Thing is, the bad reviews hung me up for a while too... I was sold on the Rooland A88 (newest version) which has everything including MIDI 2.0 for whoever someone comes out with that in their software in the next decade. But what stopped me was the keybed... it’s the Roland PH4, same as the RD800 we have in our church, and I like that keybed but I don’t love it. If you play hard it seems to bounce back too much. But ANYWAY, I plunged on the SL88 Grand, got it a couple months ago and I couldn’t be happier. I started out with a couple of problems, but it’s all fixable with the software they give you. I had double-note entries, or random notes hitting 3 octaves higher, etc. It’s the default preset, it’s useless. Once you pick a user spot and disable zones 2-4 and save that for your main preset, it all works great. For the VI composer, 1 zone is all we need. The range of velocity is infectious with the 3-contact mechanism.

The joysticks to me were useless at first, but I keep the middle one active now, explain in a minute. I use external sliders for all CC stuff. I prefer to learn that setup so if I ever switch key controllers, nothing else changes. That also means I don’t need the LCD which I heard can go dim. So I keep the center joystick active now for when I want to quickly fire up the system and play something and need quick access to CC1 without turning on the FaderPort 8 and SL Mixface. For the joystick I lay my hand flat on the SL88 and put the stick between fingers like when someone holds a cigarette. That makes the movement a lot more controllable. It’s spring-loaded side-to-side so it always stays upright.

I have no keybed issues so far and I’d like to believe the latest iteration of controllers have been tweaked to address past complaints. A lot of people in forums also have no issues after a couple years. The keybed is worth it. Of COURSE it doesn’t feel like a real grand, how can it? The best sample libraries do NOT sound like an amazing orchestra, not even close. They sound like an amazingly _recorded_ orchestra. Same with the SL88 in that sense, meaning the replication becomes good enough as we listen/play/etc. But our amazing design adapts to all sorts of things with our senses, and after a while, you forget you’re on a controller. How many other $999 88’s can claim that? Just something to ponder. I would say this: if you aren’t a piano player at all, just using keys for input, Roland A88 MKII is probably the way to go for your price range. But if you had a piano in your life and always played, even if not classically trained, the SL88 Grand’s keybed is worth the risk. Well, depending on where you are and what access you have to music stores of course.


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## ckett (Dec 5, 2020)

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Hmmm, my first keys ever were a Casio P100, which was lame, some keys happened to become faulty pretty early.
> Ill have a look on the s100.


Casio has come a long way. Their affordable key range used to be really cheap. the newer ones are really nice for the price.


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## jaketanner (Dec 5, 2020)

I ended up at GC tonight...played on the Roland Juno DS-88 and the CP-88...the CP has a very strange weight to it...especially on the release...also the back end of the black keys felt slightly heavier than they should. On the other hand, the DS was fantastic actually...loved it. Now in terms of knobs the Yamaha wins in quality, but they were not too shabby on the Roland. Will need to remember this board for when I upgrade.


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Dec 6, 2020)

One main factor maybe is the extended Warranty on the Yamaha or Kawai's, compared to the normal 2 Year for SL's or else. So i corrected my pricerange up to €2k, less is always welcome.

SL88 videos like this scare me.

_Glad i could send that crappy Akai back with full return price....squeaky keys now on the third new model after a month. Wtf. Never Akai again..._


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## chimuelo (Dec 8, 2020)

These are great to turn keybeds into master controllers too.






Lab4Music


Sipario - Advanced MIDI Router




www.lab4music.it


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## bill5 (Dec 9, 2020)

ckett said:


> Casio has come a long way. Their affordable key range used to be really cheap. the newer ones are really nice for the price.


But in my experience (workstations mostly) they are loud "klunky" keys. Overall though you're right, they are no longer just cheap "toy" keyboards, I otherwise liked them but that was a deal-breaker


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## bill5 (Dec 9, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> Hard to go by the in-store models..they get abused by non musicians also just banging on the keys...Best thing is buy from a place where you can easily return it if you don't like it.


That deserves repeating. This threw me initially but I realized it when I tried the same model at 2 diff places (right next to each other so it was easy to compare) and noticed a stark diff.





jaketanner said:


> I ended up at GC tonight...played on the Roland Juno DS-88 and the CP-88...the CP has a very strange weight to it...especially on the release...also the back end of the black keys felt slightly heavier than they should. On the other hand, the DS was fantastic actually...loved it. Now in terms of knobs the Yamaha wins in quality, but they were not too shabby on the Roland. Will need to remember this board for when I upgrade.


Before I decided I didn't need a workstation, I was all set to get the DS88. Great sound, great feel (for what it was...I prefer a lighter keyboard but seems like a holy grail I may never find).


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## jaketanner (Dec 10, 2020)

bill5 said:


> Before I decided I didn't need a workstation, I was all set to get the DS88. Great sound, great feel (for what it was...I prefer a lighter keyboard but seems like a holy grail I may never find).


Lighter feel or overall weight? If it's the latter, you need something like the Casio series of pro keys...they are about 25lbs. But finding ruggedness and a quality build in a light keyboard is not possible...something's gotta give.. LOL

For light-weight keys, your best bet is a workstation type, because the keys are usually a happy medium to accommodate synths, organs and piano like sounds. Nords come to mind. But I did like the DS88...felt really nice.

The one thing I always have doubts on with these workstation types, is how well the velocity curves will respond to VIs, rather than the on-board sounds.


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## bill5 (Dec 10, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> Lighter feel or overall weight?


Keybed. A truly "semi-weighted" feel. 



> I did like the DS88...felt really nice.


I think it's a really nice unit but the keys were too heavy for my tastes. No big, I'm not looking to buy right away anyway  



> The one thing I always have doubts on with these workstation types, is how well the velocity curves will respond to VIs, rather than the on-board sounds.


Are you aware of problems like that? I hadn't heard but not like I was really researching it...I wouldn't think generally it would be better or worse than a controller per se.


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## jaketanner (Dec 10, 2020)

bill5 said:


> Keybed. A truly "semi-weighted" feel.
> 
> I think it's a really nice unit but the keys were too heavy for my tastes. No big, I'm not looking to buy right away anyway
> 
> Are you aware of problems like that? I hadn't heard but not like I was really researching it...I wouldn't think generally it would be better or worse than a controller per se.


Sometimes I find that the keys are better suited for their on-board sounds...some do have velocity tweaking, but usually limited in comparison to a dedicated controller...but I haven't tried it with the DS.

If you want semi-weighted, then maybe look at the StudioLogic NUMA?


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## PaulieDC (Dec 10, 2020)

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> SL88 videos like this scare me.


Oh, that just means it needs the keybed reset. Kick it down the cellar steps and everything will fall back into place.

I know, I know... I'm a big help. As soon as my SL88 tanks I'll rant, don't worry.

I still vote for the Roland A88 MKII. The PH4 keybed is fine and Roland stuff lasts forever. I use a FaderPort 8 for CC expression and all that so the odd Roland joystick wouldn't bother me personally, but it's something to look at. Then there's the Native Instruments S88 II, also near your budget. That has a Fatar TP100 keybed, plenty of vids out there fussing about the clicking keys, etc. It's everywhere!

FWIW, in this video of Sam Sorenson playing the R275 library at the NAMM show reveals something interesting: The C key on the controller kept doing the same thing as the video you posted... actually gets stuck and slowly returns (you'd have to watch for it in the vid but it's there and people comment on it). That controller is the VPC-1 that Ravenworks Digital highly modifies and sells for $5,700. It's meant for the R275 library and based on the videos from all the guys who play it, yeah, the velocity curve is perfect. Yet here's a super high end controller with a key getting stuck, lol! It's going to happen to all of us at some point, AAAUUUGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!


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## bill5 (Dec 10, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> Sometimes I find that the keys are better suited for their on-board sounds...some do have velocity tweaking, but usually limited in comparison to a dedicated controller...but I haven't tried it with the DS.
> 
> If you want semi-weighted, then maybe look at the StudioLogic NUMA?


Interesting. Thanks on the suggestion, but I'm looking for a controller now, not a workstation. From what I'm reading, the Nektar Impact leads the way, but we'll see.


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## fourier (Dec 10, 2020)

I see that you wouldn't consider the Arturia Keylab 88 MKII, so I can't really give any input but to point out that I'm very happy with my purchase. I'm not a pianist of any such caliber that I can recognize the "plastic" feeling you're describing.


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 10, 2020)

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Yea, but the case and knobs are the same on the MP11 and i found them ridiculously cheap made.



Really? But that thing's built like a tank!

In my opinion, the MP11 has the best keybed of all slabs and MIDI-controllers I've tested, and I've tested about all of them! Took me a few weeks, but was worth it. To each his own I guess


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## jaketanner (Dec 10, 2020)

bill5 said:


> Interesting. Thanks on the suggestion, but I'm looking for a controller now, not a workstation. From what I'm reading, the Nektar Impact leads the way, but we'll see.


I had an Impact. It's okay, all plastic, but very usable for sure.


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## bill5 (Dec 10, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> I had an Impact. It's okay, all plastic, but very usable for sure.


? What keyboards aren't all plastic (or close to it)?


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## jaketanner (Dec 10, 2020)

bill5 said:


> ? What keyboards aren't all plastic (or close to it)?


most 88 key controllers...even my M Audio Hammer 88 isn't plastic really...but I was referring mostly to the casing...there is a bit of a "bending" give with the Impact if I recall. Not a bad keyboard at all, just might not be as sturdy (plastic).


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## bill5 (Dec 11, 2020)

I must be missing something as every single keyboard I've ever seen was mostly plastic, casing included. What's the M Audio Hammer 88? Metal?


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## jaketanner (Dec 11, 2020)

bill5 said:


> I must be missing something as every single keyboard I've ever seen was mostly plastic, casing included. What's the M Audio Hammer 88? Metal?


yes, metal top and MDF...I am also pretty sure that the high-end Kawai chassis are not plastic. But when i say plastic, I mean the cheap bendable type...like you would find in inexpensive Casios...The Nektar is not of high quality ruggedness, but it was a good studio piece. But my Hammer88 is about 40lbs also...no way around plastic if you want a very light-weight 88 keyboard.


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Dec 14, 2020)

Marcus Millfield said:


> Really? But that thing's built like a tank!
> 
> In my opinion, the MP11 has the best keybed of all slabs and MIDI-controllers I've tested, and I've tested about all of them! Took me a few weeks, but was worth it. To each his own I guess


Ok, i wanted to write MP7, not 11. Sheesh.


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Dec 14, 2020)

Hmmm.....
im having this Yamaha CLP-645 here with the GH3X (NWX) keybed, which could i compare to that one?


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 14, 2020)

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Ok, i wanted to write MP7, not 11. Sheesh.


Ah, that explains a lot.


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Dec 14, 2020)

Yep, sry. They just had the MP7SE unpacked to play in the store. A Korg SV-2 also felt nice to me.


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## Windbag (Dec 15, 2020)

...nother vote for the Studiologic SL88 grand. Very happy with mine apart from the deadband in the sticks (only a problem for the half that are spring-loaded). Frankly that doesn't bother me because I've taken to controlling modwheel-type stuff with other inputs (expression pedal, breath controller, roli) anyway.

The only issue I've had with mine turned out to be no fault of the keyboard (underpowered USB port) and apart from the screen going black it actually worked anyway. It's a great feeling, responsive, predictable and customizable triple sensor board and it is certainly built for gigging. Even the keycaps are textured useing material injected in the plastic so they don't seem to be wearing smooth like a molded-in surface texture. The wood is kind of a gimmick (it has no part in the fuction of the action..just essentially key weight) but based on my research, you're not going to do any better without spending AND carrying a lot more.


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