# EIS courses now being offered at Pasadena City College- Greater Los Angeles Area



## jsaras (Sep 4, 2008)

Michael Mitacek is offering EIS instruction in a group setting at Pasadena City College. The courses are offered on Saturday mornings beginning this weekend.

Music 124AB covers Books 1 and 2 and is offered from 9-10 a.m.

Music 124C covers books 3 through 6 and meets from 10 to 1:30.

The positive: at $74 per class (16 weeks of instruction) plus books and PCC registration, the value is incredible. 

The negative: It's group instruction. The folks in the class range from barely sober to a handful of EIS graduates who are re-taking the material. You are not going to receive the individualized attention you'd get by studying with David Blumberg. 

Also, you're not doing all the assignments in the texts. Indeed, at the pace that the course moves (about twice as fast as in a private context), it's nearly impossible to do all the assignments even if you tried. Therefore, you are arguably not going to receive the entire benefit of working through the material.

For myself, I am doing both, private weekly studies with David Blumberg as well as the PCC course as a way to reinforce the material.

You can get more information at www.pasadena.edu


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## jsaras (Sep 7, 2008)

FWIW, the introductory course was absolutely packed with new students, which was not the case last semester. I don't know if this post had anything to do with it but it's nice to see a large crop of young folks who are interested.


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 7, 2008)

lets see how long they last...


btw I did my assignments the one quarter I attended Mike's class, it was hard keeping up but I figured if I was going to college full time i would have had to do way more work. I think I was the only one who did hand in the assignments creating more work for Professor Mitacek, probably the last thing he needed.

As you can see it is a pretty easy credit if you don't have to do the work.


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## jsaras (Sep 8, 2008)

Craig, you make a very valid point. Most of the students in the Book 3/4 class are not prepared to study that material. I have a far better grasp of the material than anyone else in that class not because I'm a genius; it's because I've put in the time.


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## Jackull (Sep 8, 2008)

Agreed bout putting the time, base on my experience it is thru repetitions & continuously doing the homework...

ok where is my book now, still couldn't find it 

-j


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## JT3_Jon (Jan 11, 2009)

Is the course still being offered in the new year? EIS sounds very interesting, but unfortunately is a little out of my current price range. However this class seems like it could be a great way to see if its something worth pursuing. 

I really hope its still being offered, though the commute from Palmdale would be a pain, it sounds like it could be worth it!


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## Craig Sharmat (Jan 11, 2009)

don't know if the course is being offered this semester but it probably is.

Also you drive to Pasadena not Palmdale.

we are both up to late.


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## JT3_Jon (Jan 11, 2009)

Craig Sharmat @ Sun Jan 11 said:


> don't know if the course is being offered this semester but it probably is.
> 
> Also you drive to Pasadena not Palmdale.
> 
> we are both up to late.



Yeah, I put FROM Palmdale. But I'll forgive you...this time


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## gsilbers (Jan 11, 2009)

http://www.pasadena.edu/academicsupport/catalog.cfm?



i did a search for EIS and had a few casses


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## gsilbers (Jan 11, 2009)

now i am interested in this course...

but dunno if to take it there or w a private teacher. i think i can go faster than one hour a week but dont now the course. i did berklee so i just want to fill in some gaps taking the complete course.


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## synergy543 (Jan 11, 2009)

Too bad EIS is not being offered online here at VI. Imagine how many might be truly interested that can't travel to Pasadena or afford private lessons.

What a lively discussion forum it would be!


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## Craig Sharmat (Jan 11, 2009)

Well private lessons are offered online.


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## gsilbers (Jan 11, 2009)

Craig Sharmat @ Sun Jan 11 said:


> Well private lessons are offered online.



really? where? do u have a link?


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## Craig Sharmat (Jan 11, 2009)

You can ask any of the teachers on the list at

http://equalinterval.com/

if they are available they can teach online. All are graduates of the course and permitted to teach EIS. For conversations with other students or teachers you can come back to VI to discuss.


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## jsaras (Jan 11, 2009)

gsilbers @ Sun Jan 11 said:


> i think i can go faster than one hour a week but dont now the course.



I'm one of the few (perhaps the only?) who is taking the course both privately with David Blumberg (equalinterval.com) as well as at PCC, so I feel qualified to speak on this subject. I would say that I get far more depth studying the material in one hour/week privately than I do in the 3-4 hours/week in a classroom setting. There are zero distractions in a private setting and you must turn in your written homework to demonstrate a mastery of that lesson. In the classroom setting, the homework requirement was nearly zero and I believe that the overall comprehension of the people in that class isn't what it should be. The reality is that most people aren't that self-disciplined.

Someone mentioned having this forum as a way of teaching the material. The PCC course (Books 1 and 2 only) IS available online and may serve as a great introduction to EIS concepts. I don't know because I've not reviewed the online material. However, it will likely not be offered solely as an online course as there are licensing/royalty issues with the Murphy estate. The family rightfully receives royalties from the sale of the books from those who teach the course. I'd bet that working out an agreement for an online-only course that is fair and workable would be a little tricky.

That said, I would like to see a handful of YouTube videos on the Equal Interval site that actually give an overview of the voice-leading concepts in Books 1/2, without giving away all the details; something that the average musician could get excited about because their harmonic concept was enlarged within a total of just watching 30 minutes of video. I've meaning to talk about this with David Blumberg at some point. I've got professional video equipment and I have some ideas of what material should be in it.


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## JT3_Jon (Jan 11, 2009)

jsaras @ Sun Jan 11 said:


> gsilbers @ Sun Jan 11 said:
> 
> 
> > i think i can go faster than one hour a week but dont now the course.
> ...



Very cool! I think I will take the class online and avoid the hour drive! Thank you very much for pointing out this option. I'm looking to get introduced to EIS as it sounds very interesting/inspiring, and this seems like an excellent way to do so! If it proves stimulating, I'll continue privately at some point in the future. Obviously private study would be ideal, but I unfortunately cannot dedicate the $65 per hour at this time. 

Thanks again for the heads up! I'm going to look and see when/how we sign up!

edit: In case anyone is interested, it appears enrollment for new students starts next week (Jan 17th) and apparently can be done online: http://www.pasadena.edu/calendar/impitem.cfm?ID=1006

The Semester starts the week of Feb 23rd.


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## synergy543 (Jan 11, 2009)

Thanks for the info guys. I would like to study EIS sometime when I can devote the proper amount of time but right now I might just buy the books to preview. 

Where are the books offered online?


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## gsilbers (Jan 11, 2009)

so im confusedon the pricing. 

is it $16 per class in pasadena college or $74 per class?

how much is private lesson? 

and is it the same as the online course you arer saying?


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## midphase (Jan 12, 2009)

A private lesson is more than $16 and varies from instructor to instructor. You can take private lessons in person by going to the instructor's house, or over video chat with Skype or AIM (some instructors don't offer that option).

The way the private lessons generally work is that each week you learn a new chapter. The hour lesson is generally devoted to checking your homework from the previous chapter, and then giving you an introduction to the upcoming chapter. 

While 1 hour/week might seem like nothing...keep in mind that the majority of your learning will happen when you do the homework and you read and re-read each chapter which could add up to 10 or more hours. If you're a full time working composer, you probably realize that even maintaining a one hour lesson each week can be hard to sustain (I felt more comfortable with 1 lesson every other week). Of course if you don't have much else going on...multiple lessons can be taken and hence the course can go by a lot quicker.

The Pasadena course is probably a bit watered down, and you can only advance at the pace of the rest of the class. Plus I can't imagine that in one semester they'd cover more than the first 2 books...I would consider it more of an introduction to EIS...but maybe I'm wrong and someone who has taken the course can dispute my claim.

EIS is unfortunately one of those knowledges that is passed on verbally, while there is a "workbook" to go with each section of the course, it's not a textbook. Let me repeat that...it's not a textbook....it's a workbook! It is very very difficult to really understand what is going on just by reading the workbooks...you can read them 100 times, and think you are understanding what you're supposed to, and be completely and totally missing the point.

EIS is not like learning arranging or counterpoint for which you can find dozens upon dozens of books on Amazon. At its most basic level, it's a method for determining the most musical harmonically and melodically correct way to write progressions and melodies so that each individual note is moving to its most logical and musical successive note thus creating very flowing and correct counterpoint and melody. In its more complex level, it gives the composer some compositional "formulas" (for lack of a better term) to derive music which defies conventional compositional methods such as creating harmonies based on intervals in 4ths or minor 2nds (or a mix of those).

I am currently taking a hiatus from the course to sort out what I have learned so far, the amount of information is quite overwhelming and difficult to apply in day to day projects while taking the course, especially if you're a working composer with limited time to devote to the course. It is my firm belief that even if I were to stop right now, and not learn any more EIS methodology, I have already accrued knowledge to last me for the rest of my life...but there is no doubt that (destiny willing) I will resume my learning at some point in the future.

I have also publicly stated that I believe the current way the course is taught is unsustainable beyond the current generation of teachers. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) I'm not in charge! I do believe that at some point, somebody will have to roll up their sleeves, write an actual textbook to teach EIS in a way that doesn't necessarily require a private instructor, and make the book (or books) available for sale publicly and to schools. Ideally, said person would have a good grasp on technology and current production workflow and be able to update the EIS methodology for modern usage (ie. not pencil and paper). A better selection of audio and video materials are also IMHO badly needed. The current audio examples provided with the course are...to put it mildy....uninspiring.

There are undoubtedly some politics behind why things are the way they are...probably compounded by the fact that I don't believe the Murphy family is particularly familiar with composition or what the course purports to do (I could me mistaken about this so take it with a huge grain of salt).

I believe EIS offers an incredible array of new tools for composition, I also believe that such tools might not be necessary nor valuable to everybody. I know plenty of very successful composers who would simply not see any benefit from EIS.

Lastly....EIS is not a miracle cure. It will not turn a mediocre composer into an amazing one, it is not a one-size-fits-all, it doesn't necessarily make other courses or techniques obsolete or redundant, and positively absolutely...it will not make you rich and famous (that I'm afraid is more dependent on your business skills). Most importantly, whatever you will gain from it will not happen overnight. It has taken me 6 books and the better part of 3 years to get a basic grasp of what the big picture is, and just now I have accrued enough familiarity with the material to incorporate it into my workflow more and more. If you're expecting miracles after a few weeks...you're barking up the wrong tree and are better off with the Smalley courses.

Sorry for the extended and not necessarily on-topic response....but I think it's vital that people understand what EIS is...and most importantly what it is not.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 12, 2009)

Thanks Kays for your insights.

Whenever I listen to an EIS example it is like a little miracle to me and if there is a future for ambitious writing then EIS for sure is a key to it. However the verbal instruction part is what scares me so far from taking it up since I think the language barrier for non-natives is probably high. Writing and reading is one thing but in acutal conversations in english I feel clumsy and would worry about missing the essentials.


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## jsaras (Jan 12, 2009)

midphase @ Mon Jan 12 said:


> The Pasadena course is probably a bit watered down, and you can only advance at the pace of the rest of the class. Plus I can't imagine that in one semester they'd cover more than the first 2 books...I would consider it more of an introduction to EIS...but maybe I'm wrong and someone who has taken the course can dispute my claim.
> 
> EIS is unfortunately one of those knowledges that is passed on verbally, while there is a "workbook" to go with each section of the course, it's not a textbook. It is very very difficult to really understand what is going on just by reading the workbooks...you can read them 100 times, and think you are understanding what you're supposed to, and be completely and totally missing the point.



The course sequence at PCC covers 10 of the EIS books (the two orchestration books are not included) over a period of 2 years. If a person were extremely self-motivated and actually did all the assignments as the course progresses each week...well, nobody does that! So in that sense, I guess it is appropriate to call it an EIS overview.

I don't think I'd classify the EIS books as workbooks. But I would have to agree with you that the language used in the books is a "thick" at times, BUT, it is ALL there. That said, there are many places where I think the information could have been stated more clearly with fewer words. That's really the point of having a teacher who has completed the course.

EIS is probably will always be destined to be a bit of a "counterculture" course of study. Regardless of what modifications could be made to the written material, the fact is the traditional methods at universities are not going to go away anytime soon, even if they are a bit stale. It would be great to see the course being offered at a handful of universities. But, you generally can't be a full professor unless you have a traditional music degree (six years...plus whatever it takes to complete the EIS course). The only person I know of that fits that description in Mike Mitacek at PCC. The fact that there aren't 500,000 people who know and use the method is a probably a good thing. There are countless "easy to read" books on counterpoint, chorale harmony, etc., and how many people are adept at those skills? Very few, in spite of the material being available for free on the web.

OK. I gotta get to my homework! 

The bottom line is that it takes a lot of work to learn music in any context.


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## gsilbers (Jan 12, 2009)

jsaras @ Mon Jan 12 said:


> gsilbers @ Sun Jan 11 said:
> 
> 
> > so im confusedon the pricing.
> ...



cool thanx. 

so for the private lessons i get a book? (person to person) 

do i get a book for the online class (from a teacher like u said)? 


andd for what you answered above.. i dont get a book in the pasadena college?


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## midphase (Jan 12, 2009)

GSilbers....why don't you e-mail PCC and David Blumberg and get those questions answered from official sources?

David's e-mail should be listed on the EIS site, and I believe somebody has already posted a PCC link on this thread.

I think it's ok to ask general questions here...but it seems like you are asking for details that I think are best asked to the official sources.

Sorry for sounding a bit "stern" but this is the second thread where you are asking for specific info that you could easily obtain by sending an e-mail to the appropriate sources....is there a reason as to why you're avoiding doing that?


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## jsaras (Jan 12, 2009)

gsilbers @ Mon Jan 12 said:


> do i get a book for the online class (from a teacher like u said)?



You will need a book for the online class (at an additional cost). You can obtain it from the PCC book store or from equalinterval.com


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## gsilbers (Jan 12, 2009)

midphase @ Mon Jan 12 said:


> GSilbers....why don't you e-mail PCC and David Blumberg and get those questions answered from official sources?
> 
> David's e-mail should be listed on the EIS site, and I believe somebody has already posted a PCC link on this thread.
> 
> ...



yep, id should do that. 

i just wanted to compare it to the online and private instruction. which one would be better for me. price vs time vs quality of learning.


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## midphase (Jan 12, 2009)

Quality of learning should be pretty clear as to which one is best.

Price-wise....if you can afford the private lessons...go for the private lessons (somebody on this thread has already given you an idea of how much they go for give or take a few bucks).

If you can't afford the couple of hundred or so bucks a month for a private lesson, and you've decided that you really absolutely must learn EIS....then the PCC course is most likely better than nothing.


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## gsilbers (Jan 16, 2009)

so i emailed the teacher but didnt get a respoonse, 

i called up and everyone sounded very getto. not the black accent but that they didnt know much of whats going on. but whatever, 

i found out that its an "online" class. they meet certain Saturdays. 

and that you could go to the 1st class of orientation and see if u wanted to stay but you needed a waiver to register later. 


but i couldn't find out if we get the 17th CD's also if we join the class or if this is extra.


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## JT3_Jon (Jan 10, 2010)

Has anyone else tried the class and can offer an opinion vs the private lessons? 

I'm personally thinking the class might be a way for me to start learning EIS, and then pick up with private instructions later. My biggest concern is that I'll be able to progress enough to grow in the classroom setting and be able to continue off that foundation, or if I'll end up having to redo with my private teacher the fundamentals, making the class a waste of time and money.

Anyone out there start with this class and progress to private instruction?


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## Craig Sharmat (Jan 11, 2010)

what books are being offered this semester?

If it is not books 1+2 you start from way behind as there is a language to learn first in this course.


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## jsaras (Jan 11, 2010)

Just to clear up some confusion...

Michael Mitacek is notorious for not responding to emails or phone calls. He does show up to the classroom, however.

Only the Book 1 material , which comprises four very basic lessons, is available online. Mitacek covers all that material, and starts into Book 2, during the first Saturday class session. So to be clear, there is no online-only version of the course.

The Book 1/Book 2 text is available at the PCC book store. The CDs are not available. However, if you gave the teacher a check, I'm sure he could obtain them for you.

Pasadena City College is a great way to get introduced to EIS theory. Again, the drawback is that you are not expected to turn in written homework for every lesson in the book as would be the case in private lessons. If you have the discipline to do the assignments in the book, he would grade your work if you turned it in. In my opinion, it is essential to have this interaction as you learn the concepts to obtain the intended benefit of course. 

The semester that starts in February is offering Books 1-2 in one section, and Books 7-8 in another section. Although the course catalog says that there are no prerequistes to take any of these courses, it is inconceivable to me to think that this material could be learned out of sequence.

The new decade is a great time to begin a new adventure in learning!


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