# Why do they retitle...?



## Lionel Schmitt (Feb 24, 2018)

I'm talking about bigger exclusive libraries like Extrememusic.
One of the most horrible examples of retitling is this album.
https://www.extrememusic.com/albums/2919?item=50294
It features some wonderful ambient music by James Everingham. He said about some previous work of his for Extrememusic that the library choose the titles so I assume strongly that it was the case this time as well. Also, look at his soundcloud how he usually names his tracks... https://soundcloud.com/james-everingham
based on this I'm sure he would never call an beautiful melodic ambient piece "Keet Those Plates Spinning" or "Good Clean Fun" (haha, what did they mean with that?? gives me some ideas...)
so, why are they (and many other labels) doing that so routinely and for every track? Do they really never ever like the titles the composer gives them? That's pretty unlikely, and I also can't imagine that naming an ominous, reflective ambient piece "Good Clean Fun" helps selling that track... I also want to avoid libraries that practice this since I would be very unhappy if a track I just poured my heart into "Keep Those Plates Spinning" or other nonsense.


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## Nico (Feb 24, 2018)

My guess if that when royalties are paid, it is easier to identify from which library/publisher the track comes from, especially if the library does not own exclusive rights.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Feb 24, 2018)

Nico said:


> My guess if that when royalties are paid, it is easier to identify from which library/publisher the track comes from, especially if the library does not own exclusive rights.


Hm... I'm referring to exclusive libraries... maybe there is something behind it in terms of non-exclusive pulishing but exclusive? seems totally random.


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## R. Soul (Feb 24, 2018)

I imagine it could be that the don't want a track to have the same title as another in the library, although that could be difficult if they have 100.000 tracks.

My last 2 albums have mostly been retitled by 2 different (exclusive) libraries.
First library renames all tracks starting with the first letters in the alphabet.
Second library seems to have kept more of my titles, but it seems like they don't want one or two word titles, so they add a few themselves. For example, I had a track called 'All or nothing', which they retitled to 'Give it all or nothing'.


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## Desire Inspires (Feb 24, 2018)

Don’t put too much thought into this thing. They retitle for a number of reasons, none of which matter to the composer. As long as the composer is correctly registered as the songwriter with the correct writer’s share split, nothing else is important.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Feb 24, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> Don’t put too much thought into this thing. They retitle for a number of reasons, none of which matter to the composer. As long as the composer is correctly registered as the songwriter with the correct writer’s share split, nothing else is important.


Well, for me it' a problem to some extent. I would even consider not working with a big library if they don't keep my titles. Or I only give them tracks where I don't care as much how they are called. That's me personally. I'm a bit excentric about that.


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## Desire Inspires (Feb 24, 2018)

DarkestShadow said:


> Well, for me it' a problem to some extent. I would even consider not working with a big library if they don't keep my titles. Or I only give them tracks where I don't care as much how they are called. That's me personally. I'm a bit excentric about that.



The thing is that when you sign over your music exclusively to a music library, they are the owner of the music. As such, they can retitle your music without your permission.

I don’t get hung up on that. I just want to get paid. Whatever they need to do to keep the money rolling into my pocket is good with me.


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## Greg (Feb 24, 2018)

If you're passionate about preserving the vision for your art then I would run directly in the opposite direction of production music libraries. Most libraries treat the title basically as another keyword.


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## Desire Inspires (Feb 24, 2018)

Greg said:


> If you're passionate about preserving the vision for your art then I would run directly in the opposite direction of production music libraries. Most libraries treat the title basically as another keyword.



Yes, they are trying to sell licenses, not preserve art. If a music library cares more about preserving the vision of art, run directly in the opposite direction of that music library. Money is the name of the game!


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## Lionel Schmitt (Feb 25, 2018)

Greg said:


> If you're passionate about preserving the vision for your art then I would run directly in the opposite direction of production music libraries. Most libraries treat the title basically as another keyword.


Keep. Those. Plates. Spinning. Hmm... (track 9) https://www.extrememusic.com/albums/2919
Nailed. It. (also gives me some thoughts... man... - track 14) https://www.extrememusic.com/albums/2775
A. Nice. Cameo. Role (track 9) https://www.extrememusic.com/albums/3137?item=53046
Weird Keywords... for melodic, cinematic music...
Yes I have it with Extrememusic.  I propably should stop. Hans is watching.  

Also, complaining wasn't really why I posted - I was interested as to why they would routinely retitle (music libraries in general - the ones who do so). I just cannot imagine that a library would dislike all titles the composer gives the tracks. And I think the thing with they keywords... Read the titles... I think we can put that idea to rest.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Feb 25, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> Yes, they are trying to sell licenses, not preserve art. If a music library cares more about preserving the vision of art, run directly in the opposite direction of that music library. Money is the name of the game!


I'm just gonna go for the ones that don't retitle. Or at least don't give them such absurd names like... ah, ok - Hans is watching...  
Or withhold the ones where I care about the title too much.


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## Daryl (Feb 25, 2018)

DarkestShadow said:


> I'm just gonna go for the ones that don't retitle. Or at least don't give them such absurd names like...


Obviously that's your choice. However do make sure that you've tested the search engine of all their Sub Publishers before you assume you know more about it than your own Publisher.


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## R. Soul (Feb 25, 2018)

DarkestShadow said:


> I'm just gonna go for the ones that don't retitle. Or at least don't give them such absurd names like... ah, ok - Hans is watching...
> Or withhold the ones where I care about the title too much.


If Extreme wants my tracks they can rename them to 'Ooh, I think the milk is out of date' and 'Doctor, what is that rash?' for all I care 
I'm going to laugh all the way to the bank.


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## muk (Feb 25, 2018)

The term 'retitling' is misleading in this case, as it is used to refer to the practice of some non-exclusive libraries who use retitling to obscure the fact that the same track can be found in other libraries. That is clearly not the case with ExtremeMusic.

I am working with WCPM, and they asked me for my inputs for the titling of my tracks. I told them that I am not good at coming up with titles and that they could name the tracks however they see fit. Still, when they had the list with the titles, they sent it to me to ask if I was ok with it. I don't know how ExtremeMusic works, but I assume that it is similar. Probably the titles were given in consultation with the composer.


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## GtrString (Feb 25, 2018)

I dont think its really an old art vs commerce discussion. Doing music for audiovisual productions is more a collaborative art, because the music has to work in context of a show or a film, which also are artforms.

If a title is so hard for you to negotiate, you will be very troublesome to work with, because there are more important issues to discuss as well. If that is so, it may not be your thing.

The contracts are just business administration, that is how they can make it happen. Extreme does some good work.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Feb 25, 2018)

Daryl said:


> Obviously that's your choice. However do make sure that you've tested the search engine of all their Sub Publishers before you assume you know more about it than your own Publisher.


ahh... not sure what that means...? What do I assume I know more about than my publisher?


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## Lionel Schmitt (Feb 25, 2018)

muk said:


> The term 'retitling' is misleading in this case, as it is used to refer to the practice of some non-exclusive libraries who use retitling to obscure the fact that the same track can be found in other libraries. That is clearly not the case with ExtremeMusic.
> 
> I am working with WCPM, and they asked me for my inputs for the titling of my tracks. I told them that I am not good at coming up with titles and that they could name the tracks however they see fit. Still, when they had the list with the titles, they sent it to me to ask if I was ok with it. I don't know how ExtremeMusic works, but I assume that it is similar. Probably the titles were given in consultation with the composer.


I wouldn't assume that. I heard about other exclusive libraries (like Fringe Element) that they without any conversation retitled. 
Well, James Everingham just wrote as someone asked him about one of his titles that the library choose the title. Didn't sound like a collaborative process. I also really cannot see James going from "Leviathan" "Wavebreaker" "Entity" to "Good Clean Fun" or "Keep Those Plates Spinning".  
I propably should ask him.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Feb 25, 2018)

R. Soul said:


> If Extreme wants my tracks they can rename them to 'Ooh, I think the milk is out of date' and 'Doctor, what is that rash?' for all I care
> I'm going to laugh all the way to the bank.


sure haha! I would then just send tracks where I don't care about the title.


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## MatFluor (Feb 25, 2018)

As already mentioned in the thread - with exclusive libraries, it's their music then. It can have a variety of factors why they rename them. Also the search engine factor is a good point. If you name a track "The Street", the chances are, that there already is such a track in the database, so renaming is in order. Maybe also to create albums of various tracks with a special feel, let's say "Day at the beach". So they could rename the tracks to fit into that album. If your track "Butchers home" fits the vibe perfectly, they just rename it to "lying in the sand" to have the consistency going.

Titles, especially with instrumental music, are not relevant most often. At least not for licensing. You see on non-exlcusive sites such creative titles as "Slow, dark cinematic with strings". Fair enough - SEO 
So, just to say it, you shouldn't care about the titles of your track, they don't mean anything. if it's music mwith lyrics then it's a different matter, but there is also a lot of room for "optimizing" titles. But instrumental - the title doesn't mean anything to anyone except to yourself. If you composed a track to mourn the loss of a friend and call it "Dear Charlie", the library might not like that at all, and renames it "The Blessing". Give them meaningful names to have an oversight, but don't get attached to titles - as said - nobody cares about them and nobody (except you) cares about a deeper meaning (like the Dear Charlie example).

Just my 2 cents


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## Daryl (Feb 25, 2018)

DarkestShadow said:


> ahh... not sure what that means...? What do I assume I know more about than my publisher?


Sorry for not being clear. The point that I'm trying to make is that online search engines are a very complex beast, and whilst it may be that for some Sub Publishers' engine the title is ignored, when it comes to searching metadata and criteria, it could also mean that the words used are weighted heavily. Unless you know what words are used and how, it's difficult to know what the titles should be. For example, I know of one search engine where the title is not part of the default search. Another one where it is pretty much the top of the criteria, but if the words you've used are not on the list, your track gets bumped down below the other tracks that do contain one or more of these words.

So what I'm saying is that insisting on your own titles may be fine. However, it could also lose you income.


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## Dr Belasco (Feb 25, 2018)

Any title with the word Positive in it is always a good starting point.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Feb 25, 2018)

Daryl said:


> Sorry for not being clear. The point that I'm trying to make is that online search engines are a very complex beast, and whilst it may be that for some Sub Publishers' engine the title is ignored, when it comes to searching metadata and criteria, it could also mean that the words used are weighted heavily. Unless you know what words are used and how, it's difficult to know what the titles should be. For example, I know of one search engine where the title is not part of the default search. Another one where it is pretty much the top of the criteria, but if the words you've used are not on the list, your track gets bumped down below the other tracks that do contain one or more of these words.
> 
> So what I'm saying is that insisting on your own titles may be fine. However, it could also lose you income.


I really hope not to many engines include the title... That's generally a pretty stupid thing IMO - unless you beforehand know that your titles are all tags.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Feb 25, 2018)

GtrString said:


> If a title is so hard for you to negotiate, you will be very troublesome to work with, because there are more important issues to discuss as well.


Well, if a library wants to retitle I won't scream and send them death threats. I might kindly ask that we can keep the title but otherwise - happened. Bad, but nothing I can do about. Next time I won't send music where I care too much about the title.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Feb 25, 2018)

MatFluor said:


> As already mentioned in the thread - with exclusive libraries, it's their music then. It can have a variety of factors why they rename them. Also the search engine factor is a good point. If you name a track "The Street", the chances are, that there already is such a track in the database, so renaming is in order. Maybe also to create albums of various tracks with a special feel, let's say "Day at the beach". So they could rename the tracks to fit into that album. If your track "Butchers home" fits the vibe perfectly, they just rename it to "lying in the sand" to have the consistency going.
> 
> Titles, especially with instrumental music, are not relevant most often. At least not for licensing. You see on non-exlcusive sites such creative titles as "Slow, dark cinematic with strings". Fair enough - SEO
> So, just to say it, you shouldn't care about the titles of your track, they don't mean anything. if it's music mwith lyrics then it's a different matter, but there is also a lot of room for "optimizing" titles. But instrumental - the title doesn't mean anything to anyone except to yourself. If you composed a track to mourn the loss of a friend and call it "Dear Charlie", the library might not like that at all, and renames it "The Blessing". Give them meaningful names to have an oversight, but don't get attached to titles - as said - nobody cares about them and nobody (except you) cares about a deeper meaning (like the Dear Charlie example).
> ...


The album thing might apply here and there but I don't think "Keep Those Plates spinning" or "Good Clean Fun" sound like Ambient tracks... on an Ambient album.

And I actually don't see any difference between instrumental and vocal. To me it's more about what I personally connect with that track, not whether it's vocal or not.

Interesting that so far I haven't heard a convincing explaination for giving all tracks routinely different (and weird) names... they aren't tags (see the title examples above), I personally don't think that they always communicate the thee of an album - the only thing would be duplicate titles... but I have heard from composers who had all of their tracks retitled - and I can't imagine that all those original titles were already in the database... well, well - maybe I should ask some label that does that directly. Really curious now. 

btw: sorry for the three posts. Next time I'm gonna keep it in one.


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## Daryl (Feb 25, 2018)

DarkestShadow said:


> I really hope not to many engines include the title... That's generally a pretty stupid thing IMO - unless you beforehand know that your titles are all tags.


Right, so I can already tell you that your hope is in vain for some search engines. Also with APM (for example) title is an optional search tag. So my advice (which you can totally ignore) is to think very hard about your titles, not just from an artistic point of view, but from a metadata and tagging point of view.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Feb 25, 2018)

Daryl said:


> Right, so I can already tell you that your hope is in vain for some search engines. Also with APM (for example) title is an optional search tag. So my advice (which you can totally ignore) is to think very hard about your titles, not just from an artistic point of view, but from a metadata and tagging point of view.


Yup. Always somenthing with "dream" for atmospheric tracks haha...


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## Daryl (Feb 25, 2018)

DarkestShadow said:


> - maybe I should ask some label that does that directly. Really curious now.


Our policy is this:

Do we already have this title?
Does the title contain searchable tags?
If not, is there enough in the description, or metadata to negate this?
Will we lose sales by not including words in the title that work as a searchable tag, or is the title so evocative that this is more of a priority?


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## Lionel Schmitt (Feb 25, 2018)

Daryl said:


> Our policy is this:
> 
> Do we already have this title?
> Does the title contain searchable tags?
> ...


Makes sense. APM?
It's propably also different for each label.
Extreme might have their own reasons to give tracks such weeeeird names...

A Nice Cameo Role
Nailed It
Keep Those Plates spinning
Good Clean Fun
...


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## Daryl (Feb 25, 2018)

DarkestShadow said:


> Makes sense. APM?


https://www.apmmusic.com/



DarkestShadow said:


> It's propably also different for each label.


Yes, because there are quite a few different search engines



DarkestShadow said:


> Extreme might have their own reasons to give tracks such weeeeird names...
> 
> A Nice Cameo Role
> Nailed It
> ...


I'm sure that they do. However, I just went to the Extreme site, and the first thing that happens in the default search is a search for the title....!


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## Lionel Schmitt (Feb 25, 2018)

Daryl said:


> I'm sure that they do. However, I just went to the Extreme site, and the first thing that happens in the default search is a search for the title....!


Haha, yea. Keep. Those. Plates. blah... I'm sure that's gonna sell. Good job guys.


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## MatFluor (Feb 25, 2018)

Yeah, it's not an explanation of why they are doing it, but rather an pointer to: You shouldn't care for licensing them out 

Well, with lyrics there is a connection between title and lyrics, but with instrumental, the title is arbitraty - from the viewpoint of a client. As said, it's not a "why do they do this", but rather a "you shouldn't care about it"


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## Daryl (Feb 25, 2018)

DarkestShadow said:


> Haha, yea. Keep. Those. Plates. blah... I'm sure that's gonna sell. Good job guys.


I'm not defending that title. Or any of the others. Just that we put a lot of thought into our titles, and that may not be apparent to composers, which is why I drew your attention to the search engine in the first place.

If I was that composer, I would ask why that title was chosen.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Feb 25, 2018)

MatFluor said:


> Yeah, it's not an explanation of why they are doing it, but rather an pointer to: You shouldn't care for licensing them out
> 
> Well, with lyrics there is a connection between title and lyrics, but with instrumental, the title is arbitraty - from the viewpoint of a client. As said, it's not a "why do they do this", but rather a "you shouldn't care about it"


Yea, yea - you are talking about licensing. I'm more about the personal connection to (and assotiations with) the track. I know that should be put aside... but I hear there are libraries that leave composers a lot of space... I'm just gonna look out for the perfect match.  I'm guessing WarnerChappel is right. Gonna send something there when I think I've reached the quality and have a diverse portfolio.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Feb 25, 2018)

Daryl said:


> I'm not defending that title. Or any of the others. Just that we put a lot of thought into our titles, and that may not be apparent to composers, which is why I drew your attention to the search engine in the first place.
> 
> If I was that composer, I would ask why that title was chosen.


Just because you were referring to titles being used as tags in a way, because some search engines take the title into consideration. That may often be, but I just don't think that it explains those titles at Extreme, that's why I listed them.

_btw: Do you know who is behind Human Origin? I do.  haha... just ignore it if you don't know what I mean - sorry, I like being trippy. _


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## Daryl (Feb 25, 2018)

DarkestShadow said:


> _btw: Do you know who is behind Human Origin? I do.  haha... just ignore it if you don't know what I mean - sorry, I like being trippy. _


Which one? CPM?


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## Lionel Schmitt (Feb 25, 2018)

Daryl said:


> Which one? CPM?


Yup. Loooove that guy! :D Hope you had fun conducting the music.
Hah, I just like to fling around my knowledge - acting like Mr. Holmes. 
I'm really a library music guy. The main music I listen to.
I found out who he is just by coming across his music on an Audiomachine album. Instantly recognized his style. I hope there is more like those Beginnings and Continuum coming from him...


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## Daryl (Feb 25, 2018)

DarkestShadow said:


> Yup. Loooove that guy! :D Hope you had fun conducting the music.
> Hah, I just like to filng around my knowledge. I'm really a library music guy. The main music I listen to.
> I found out who he is just by coming across his music on an Audiomachine album. Instantly recognized his style. I hope there is more like those Beginnings and Continuum coming from him...


I'm sure he'll be pleased to hear that he has a fan. Whoever he is.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Feb 25, 2018)

Daryl said:


> I'm sure he'll be pleased to hear that he has a fan. Whoever he is.


I already had contact with him. 
The real guy and Human Origin.  He knows that I know and doesn't seem to mind.
Do you know too? 
Would be fun if I would know but not you who conducted his music... and also knows him actually.


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## Daryl (Feb 25, 2018)

DarkestShadow said:


> Do you know too?


I plead the 5th.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Feb 25, 2018)

Daryl said:


> I plead the 5th.


Haha... you are just as mysterious.
Just lock S... ahem... _him_ somewhere so we get more of this, haha!


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## Daryl (Feb 25, 2018)

DarkestShadow said:


> Haha... you are just as mysterious.


Nah, everyone knows who I am.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Feb 25, 2018)

Daryl said:


> Nah, everyone knows who I am.


Pleading the fifth at my question is... mysterious...


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