# How Do You Deal With Rejection?



## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 4, 2006)

I've had a string of rejections in the past year, and I find it hard each time. It feels like such a waste to spend time and energy meeting the producers/director, doing the demo work, all for nothing. I find it easy to rationalize rejections, telling myself that it's not personal, that I must keep looking forward, etc, but inside, where emotions are born, each 'no' makes another little light go out. Anyhow, these days, I'm better at not falling into substance abuse to escape the bad feelings, so things *are* looking up! :roll: :???: :lol:


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## Daryl (Apr 4, 2006)

In all the time that I have been working in the profession I have had so many opinions, often conflicting, that had I listened to all of them I would have ended up a schizophrenic.

So, I've been "doing it" long enough to realise that 99.9999% of the time I am right about my own music. If I'm told it's marvellous then I always say thanks and think "what do they know anyway...", and when I'm told that I'm an idiot and it is all wrong I apologise and think "what do they know anyway...". It may seem an arrogant way to be, but it means that I trust my own judgement and I can sleep easy at night.

Of course on the occasions that I am wrong about my own stuff I add the person who was right to my small list of people who I should pay a bit more attention to.

Just my thoughts.

D


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## Nick Phoenix (Apr 4, 2006)

I have some suggestions from my own personal experience:

1. Do as few free demos as possible. I often times seem to not get the job, when it's a free demo. I have gotten the job 100% of the time that the demo is a paid demo. They treat you seriously then.

2. Try to find out why you didn't get the job and work on that issue, or maybe see if you can hear what your competitor did to get the job.

3. Go all out when you are trying to get a job, including hiring a live player to give you the edge.

4. Get as much information about a job as possible before starting, without annoying anyone.

5. Be confident and laid back, but listen.

6. Don't be afraid to scrap what you are writing and start over. If it doesn't feel great early on, it should probably be scrapped.

7. Compare your final mix to the best filmscores and make it sound like it's in the same league.

8. Don't take it personally, just keep on working hard, success will come.


Oh yes and ofcourse, use QL products. They are a recipe for success!! :shock: :roll: :wink:


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 4, 2006)

Interesting points, Nick, but you know, a lot of indie scores these days use as temp the opposite of big Hollywood scores. I lost out recently to someone who could do a better nerdy Napoleon Dynamite style, and this was for a tv series, not an indie film. Cheap organ and samba beat anyone? :roll: :lol:


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## José Herring (Apr 4, 2006)

That's great advice Nick. I personally never send any music until I've heard what they are looking for. I make the producer or director reach for me a little, get all the info I can and then start demoing. I never considered the concept of getting pay for a demo. Whoa. That's big league. I gotta get there.

Ned,

I went through a period of 5 years where I didn't get one film. I was doing record work so that was okay but then at the end of the 5 year period I stopped getting record work too. So for about a year I did nothing in music professionally.

That all changed and for two years I've not been rejected for anything. I've gotten all jobs that I've been contacted for. Of course I need to move up, but things are working out. I'm not telling you this to make you feel bad. I just want to share with you that I've been there and this is how I worked my way out.

I stopped taking it personally. I became very rational about the whole thing. I have a lot of John Debney CD's. He tosses me some here or there whenever I see him. So, one day and put my demo reel in and the I put his CD in. I A/b my music against his. I asked myself honestly if I were a filmmaker who would I hire. Unfortunately I went with Debney

:lol: 

That was a sobering experience. Because I proved to me that there was something that he was doing that I wasn't. There was something that he knew that I didn't know. There was some equipment or people that he had that I didn't have. And, I've heard his midi mockups and I knew it wasn't because he had a live orchestra. His mock ups sound about as good as his real recordings. He has even told me himself that his mockup guy has fooled him. So I know that it can be done with samples too. 

I know John pretty well. More than just about any other big name composer. I know his background his work ect. I know that his craft isn't a God's gift as much as he just being smart and well studied and interested in all kinds of music, orchestral in specific. So, I went to work on the assumption that if he can do it so can I. I still have a long ways to go, but even he didn't start out where he is. He started at the bottom and worked his way to the top. I'm going to do the same.

*Good job on not falling into substance abuse to solve your problem*. If I've learned anything from my publically misunderstood religion that I study it's this. The problem isn't in you. Every being on this planet in his native mental state is perfection. Of course there's a lot that can go wrong, but it's only because that being is being fed false information or falty data. Think of the mind as a computer. It's a computer that computes with feelings, data, impressions, conclusions about others and oneself and the evironment. So, if a computer has a faulty program and crashes is it the computer's fault? No, it still came up with the best possible solution for the faulty data. Shut down because it can't compute anymore.

Well it's a silly analogy but kind of correct. You're not mentally impared. Your brain tissues and body still function properly. The answers to your problems lie outside of you.

Dig into what you're doing. Find out ways to get better at it. rely on the forum to critique your demos and see if there are some things that could be improved. Listen to the hottest composers and bands and try to figure out what they're doing. I found that half the battle is just technique. We all have something to say artistically. That's not really a problem for you. But technically if you submit a demo that doesn't sound as good as the next guy's demo then they're going for the next guy.

Personally I've found that everybody has great tools these days. So dig in and see how you can make them sound better. Do a search high and low for nuggets of wisdom from the greats that you can apply. It's a never ending search and quest for knowledge and better application of what we do know.

In the end the light only goes out when you begin to agree with the world. It's a world of chaos and unfortunate events. It's not a fair world. It's a prison of sorts. It's not meant to be fair. It's a carefully crafted world designed to squash people.
Whether it be through taxing people to death so they never know the light of financial security or a cold world that does anything it can to make sure that no artist ever makes it. It's not really a kind world even though on the outside things seem pretty friendly. But that's just a facade. It's really a brutal world and the only good things in it are because people like you and me and other composers and artist and a few business people are strong enough to stand up and say, You know, I still think I can make a difference. I know that I can create something great. That's needed by the people. The dying of the light is just a dying of the idea that you can still be effective. That you can still "make it". Hold on to that thought hard. If you've lost it get it back. Just think back to a time when you had that burning desire in your gut to make something happend. To make great music. And to be a success.

Never give in. Never give up. 


Never agree with anybody about what you can and can't do. Never, ever, ever. Loss is an unfortunate part of life. Losing puts into play cerain mechanisms in your mind that are beyond most peoples control and brings back to them all the other times they've lost or failed. The human mind is booby trapped unfortunately. One experience can set off a chain of experiences and make it mentally difficult to see a future of anything else but pain and more pain. But, the truth is the future is unwritten. It's a blank slate. You can make a better future. Shake off the past and find out how to get better and build a better tomorrow. As long as there's breath there's hope and as long as there's the will things can happen.

Sorry to get all metaphysical on you. It's where my heads at these days.

Best,

Jose


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 4, 2006)

Well, said, Jose, well said - thanks! :razz:


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## choc0thrax (Apr 4, 2006)

josejherring @ Tue Apr 04 said:


> That was a sobering experience. Because I proved to me that there was something that he was doing that I wasn't. There was something that he knew that I didn't know. There was some equipment or people that he had that I didn't have. And, I've heard his midi mockups and I knew it wasn't because he had a live orchestra. His mock ups sound about as good as his real recordings. He has even told me himself that his mockup guy has fooled him. So I know that it can be done with samples too.



I guess Debney is a lot better these days then. His mockup demo for Cutthroat Island is really fake sounding.


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## Mike Greene (Apr 4, 2006)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Apr 04 said:


> I've had a string of rejections in the past year, and I find it hard each time.


I take rejections very hard. VERY hard. There will be at least a few per year that I really gave my all on, but lost. I don't have any advice or wisdom, but I can tell you you're not alone.  

- Mike Greene


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## fitch (Apr 4, 2006)

jose .. those words are wisdom :D about stopping taking it personally .. it's so true

beautiful advice


rejection ... there's always a next time ... don't worry .. 

and Ned you are a f**kin A! cool composer! so there really will always be a next time ..

go a hunting in some different places, open up your network :D

.. 

just don't worry .. it'll work out in the end


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 4, 2006)

I got paid for a demo once and lost the job.  It was a Disney promo, and the guy who got it was a salesman who hired people to do the actual work.


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## PaulR (Apr 4, 2006)

Years ago - in another profession - I used to take rejection personally. Everybody does to start off with and it stands to reason because it's inbuilt into the human psyche. It's about ego - and if you don't have an ego that can be bent out of shape from time to time - then selling music or whatever is definitely the wrong job. I fkg hate good losers. Be polite and all the rest of it in defeat - but for FS don't be a good loser.

Later, when I learned how to deal with it - I stopped getting it. Albeit, it happened very rarely. It depends if you are a vindictive type of person when it comes to money and business. I certainly am.

So I made all the people who didn't reject my offers, pay for the few that did. That sounds harsh I know - but it's a fact. I take the view that people that waste your time should not have any blame apportioned to them. That's just life - the ones that want to do business with you have to pay - and most of the time, they expect to pay. With me it's usually - when, where and always how much.

Music is just like any other business that requires human interaction. There are pricks and good characters in any business that requires transactions to take place that results in the handing over of money. If music, (like any other form of business whereby transactions are based on financial reward, is based solely on talent), nobody would be earning anything. Conversely, it's fortunate that people that are prepared to pay one for whatever services one supplies for money, are equally devoid of realising what talent is most of the time, especially when they're dealing with something totally outside their field of knowledge.

To me, rejection is a form of a buying signal. Sometimes you have to ask yourself - do you want to make money, or do you want to make friends.


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## fictionmusic (Apr 4, 2006)

Hey Ned!

I once lost a series to some guy who worked at Steve's Music, lived in his parent's basement, used cracked software and was willing to do the job for free! I didn't know that when I was told I wasn't needed though. All I remember was being felt betrayed when a series I had done a pilot for and so much other work was taken away from me.

The exact same thing happened in another series I was "supposed" to do. I had a great relationship with an animation company and did the pilot for a series thay were proposing. I went out of my way to make it good, and even, as I was assured it was going to be a big job and ALL mine, did the pilot for next to nothing. One day the producer took me out for lunch (suspicious in itself) and then after much hemming and hawing finally admitted that he spoke out of turn promising me the gig because as it happened, the chief financial officer of the animation company had someone he used to manage (when he was an artist manager) who was "perfect" for the job and they would be using him instead.

I was big-time disappointed, for several reasons. I doubted my abilities for sure, I felt betrayed again, but mostly I felt foolish when I realized every body else on the gig knew I wasn't going to be used way before I ever did (which was why the producer took me out for a special lunch). I'm not sure what special ways I used to deal with it (other that maybe upped my already considerable entertainment expense) but knowing how volatile I am, I probably gave my family a lot of grief and passionate lecturing about truth and honesty.

I did learn several things that week though. The first is no matter how good you are sometimes what you do is simply not what the company is looking for. Even though I am familiar with loops etc. now, when I lost the gig to the Steve's guy, it was mostly because he represented "new technology" and I was considered older than old school. Fair enough...from the surface they were probably right (but I think the free part was more the deciding factor personally). In the other case, I was doomed from the start as the cfo had an agenda. It again wasn't really a personal statement of my abilities.

The really cool thing was: both series bombed! In the first, the composer's music was reviled by the broadcastors across the board. Add to that the fact he used loops from Cubase's site without clearance AND the show had source music in the bgs that wasn't cleared, it was a disaster waiting to happen.
In the other case, the artist just didn't know how to write to picture. He is great as a musicologist and folky singer-songwriter-natural-ambience-constructor, but when it came time to make music that followed sub-text or obvious action he was totally lost.


Interestingly, the author of the animated series loved the pilot music and came up to me in a post-house where I was doing another project and told me how instrumental my music was in getting them the series in the first place. Whether that was true or not I admit it did make me feel a lot better.

I also have learned NEVER to do a pilot on the cheap again, and never trust any producer no matter how earnest they are. (Ok that's not true...I refused to do anymore work for THAT producer mainly because i didn't trust HIM anymore, so now I don't do any projects with people who don't trust me or who I don't trust)


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## Nick Phoenix (Apr 4, 2006)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Apr 04 said:


> Interesting points, Nick, but you know, a lot of indie scores these days use as temp the opposite of big Hollywood scores. I lost out recently to someone who could do a better nerdy Napoleon Dynamite style, and this was for a tv series, not an indie film. Cheap organ and samba beat anyone? :roll: :lol:



Even cheap organ and drum beats can sound fat! :wink: I was just using that as an example. What I was getting at, is that sometimes directors and producers already have a guy they want to hire, but we have been enlisted as demo guys, simply as backup, or even worse, to fish for ideas. Sometimes the personal relationships and really knowing what they are looking for is the most important thing. All my experience is with TV shows and commercials. I just starting scoring my first real film last week. It's definitely more Napolean Dynamite than Star Wars.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 4, 2006)

Nick Phoenix @ 4/4/2006 said:


> Even cheap organ and drum beats can sound fat! :wink:



Sure! But when I wrote samba beats, I was not referring to the kind that rock the house, but rather those rhythms found on 70's Lowrey organs, you know? Cheese rules... :???: :lol:


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 4, 2006)

fitch @ 4/4/2006 said:


> go a hunting in some different places, open up your network :D
> 
> ..
> 
> just don't worry .. it'll work out in the end



Thanks for the great advice, Claire, and the support - I really appreciate it today! :wink:


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## Patrick de Caumette (Apr 4, 2006)

I am with you Ned buddy :neutral: 

Tell yourself that these types of situations happen to all of us (including to Hermann that you seem to dig lately)

Never doubt for one second about your abilities: you are a talented musician.
Questioning our own abilities can be a positive step until it becomes destructive...

Either take a break or if you have the time for it, try writing a piece for yourself, without all of the client's needs attached to it.

Feel better soon! :smile: 

[schild=13 fontcolor=0000FF shadowcolor=C0C0C0 shieldshadow=1]I will not let this crazy world get to my head[/schild]


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## Peter Alexander (Apr 4, 2006)

Dear Ned,

I really appreciate your honesty. I also struggle with rejection. So here are a few things Iâ€™ve done to help this. 

Get a book called NOW DISCOVER YOUR STRENGTHS. Read the book. In the back of the bookâ€™s jacket is a code. You then go to www.strengthsfinder.com and take a multiple choice test. From this you find your top 5 strengths. Developed by the Gallup Organization, I discovered my top 5 strengths are: individualization, maximizer, strategic, competition and activator.

People strong in the Individualization theme are intrigued with the unique qualities of each person. They have a gift for figuring out how people who are different can work together productively.

People strong in the Maximizer theme focus on strengths as a way to stimulate personal and group excellence. They seek to transform something strong into something superb.

People strong in the Strategic theme create alternative ways to proceed. Faced with any given scenario, they can quickly spot the relevant patterns and issues.


People strong in the Competition theme measure their progress against the performance of others. They strive to win first place and revel in contests.


People strong in the Activator theme can make things happen by turning thoughts into action. They are often impatient.

Once I saw this, I realized my great strengths are in producing and assembling teams, and thatâ€™s where Iâ€™ve focused my efforts.


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## Doug Wellington (Apr 4, 2006)

Peter Alexander @ Tue Apr 04 said:


> Get a book called NOW DISCOVER YOUR STRENGTHS.


Good book! When I signed up for your Writing for Strings program, I saw your reference to it and really enjoyed reading it and taking the StrengthsFinder questionaire. Of course, "organized" must not have been one of my traits, as I can't find the results this much later. :lol: I'll have to call them with my number and see if I can login again and retrieve it.

The survey is very useful. Part of it is that it confirms a bit of what you think you are, but another part is pointing out things about you that you may not have thought were strengths and how you might use them to your advantage. I seem to remember that my strengths were achiever, responsibility, learner, intellection... hmm, can't remember the other one...I think maybe it was relator... (I've always loved to learn new things and teach people. Seems to fit...)

EDIT: Called Gallup today (April 5), got my login. Even though I'm 47 today :shock: I actually remembered the five traits correctly! They list learner and relator first though...

Thanks for recommending the book Peter!


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## kid-surf (Apr 5, 2006)

edit


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## Christian Marcussen (Apr 5, 2006)

Indeed - nice story. But it has left me fucking curious who snatched the gig... I find it interesting that we are competing that literaly - over the same gigs.


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## Evan Gamble (Apr 5, 2006)

Im gonna snap up ALL the gigs BITCHES!!!! :twisted: 








Just Kidding of course :lol:


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## Christian Marcussen (Apr 5, 2006)

bummer :(


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## ComposerDude (Apr 5, 2006)

Ned, I'm sad to hear about the bad news. As with so much in life, "Just keep going."

I heard a demo of yours awhile back that was really wonderful and could easily have been dropped into a primetime series "as is". I think you have the talent and drive to make it.

-Peter


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## Peter Alexander (Apr 5, 2006)

This brings up an interesting point that came to me as I've been preparing How Ravel Orchestrated. If you read enough biographies, you discover that while some composers are really good about teaching other composers, when it comes to gigs and getting live performances, composers are one of most vicious groups of competitors on earth. 

Vary rarely do composers refer, and very often it's so cutthroat, you're always a little amazed. 

And when composers are hired to write reviews of other composers! Mercy! Read bios of Ravel, Debussy and compsoers of that period and you'll read merciless reviews of other composers by composers. 

One of the few who would promote a student was Ravel, who sponsored English composer Ralph Vaughn Wiliams and helped his career a great deal. 

But by and large, there are WAY more composers than there are gigs, and so it's incrediby rough. In Los Angeles, on lower end films, some composers have been paying producers to write the music just so they can get a credit. 

Among orchestrators, it's different. It's a small group and when you get to the last minute you need people who are good, fast, reliable and accurate. And don't tell tales out of school!

There you can get referrals. 

For me, this comes back to knowing how you're wired and looking to produce your own stuff separate from the herd. The herd will hate you for doing so, but the herd isn't going to send you any money. The more you can tap in to create income from other sources, the less the herd matters.


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## kid-surf (Apr 5, 2006)

> And don't tell tales out of school!




What do you mean by that?

I figured I'd delete my other post as I don't want it to be taken as "telling tales out of school"....


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## Stephen Rees (Apr 5, 2006)

kid-surf @ Wed Apr 05 said:


> > And don't tell tales out of school!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's a shame. I'm glad I read it before you deleted it. Your tales along the lines of 'reality check - this is the way the system works' are always appreciated and I think of great value to any aspiring composer who is trying to get a handle on things.

Thanks for posting it in the first place, and the other posts you've put up here and elsewhere on the subject. Much appreciated!

All the best,

Stephen


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## kid-surf (Apr 5, 2006)

Yeah, you'd hope there'd be a place where you could "really" talk composer to composer. But it seems there's always someone who will take your words the wrong way. I don't want to send the wrong message.


It _is_ a shame........



I'll tell you what... there's not only competitiveness in composing, there's a lot of jealousy too. I honestly am not jealous of folks (even if they think are better than me -- because sometimes they may not be), I don't feel there is any-thing/one standing in 'my' way, so I'd have no reason to be jealous or even envious. That's why I wouldn't feel the need to talk crap on another composer. Sure, I'm competitive, but that's it. This gig is all fair and square. We all have a brain and we all have the same 'chance' for greatness. We all have the same notes in front of us.

Some people naturally have thicker skin than others. Some people take rejection personally, some people don't. And some people don't like you talking about this stuff unless it's surface-y stuff having to do with samples and such. (well, sometimes I don't care what the sample of the day is, sometimes I'm more interested in the people behind the samples)

Hey this gig is very insular, I think it's healthy to discuss this stuff honestly and openly. But sometimes I forget that people may take my words the wrong way in 'type'. I guess it's safer to not talk about any of this 'real life' stuff...


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## joaz (Apr 5, 2006)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Apr 04 said:


> but inside, where emotions are born, each 'no' makes another little light go out.



I appreciate your candour Ned.

In this day and age we are all supposed to be glowing little bundles of positivity are'nt we ?
But I reckon felling sh! tty from time to time is equally valid.
My method is to have the feeling, explore the darkness of it for a little while, but don't get stuck in the pit.

This can be a good place to write some really dark fu*k you music from.  

From a certain perspective, the creative part of us, doesn't seem to care what we go through so long as it adds grist to the creative mill.

Dr Joaz' treatment for this condition. 
Take those feelings and turn them into music.
The creative act, will start to transmute them.

regards Joe


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## tobyond (Apr 5, 2006)

kid-surf @ Wed Apr 05 said:


> Yeah, you'd hope there'd be a place where you could "really" talk composer to composer.



This place is as close as it gets, I thought your post was great and I'm sad to see you removed it. It is a great lesson on how driven you need to be to get the good gigs. If someone takes offense to it then it's their problem.


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## Peter Alexander (Apr 5, 2006)

kid-surf @ Wed Apr 05 said:


> > And don't tell tales out of school!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It means you talk in generalities and don't name names. It means remembering that you're a hired hand, and that all composers have strengths and weaknesses. As an orchestrator, you're brought in and paid to fill in the gaps. 

I did not perceive that anything you wrote in your post was telling a tale out of school. You were simply citing a business case study from my perspective.

Professional composers build teams with people they can trust. The professional composer is the one who went out and got the gig, so if an orchestrator(s) is involved, they were called to help. When a composer brings in a pro orchestrator, that orchestrator learns in short order what the composer knows/doesn't know, can do/can't do. Part of the gig is understanding that an orchestrator is a kind of consultant. His job is to support and not criticize.


PA


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 5, 2006)

...and then there are cases when orchestrators are brought in to help when there simply isn't time for the composer to do it all on his or her own - i.e. it has nothing to do with his or her weaknesses.


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## Christian Marcussen (Apr 5, 2006)

I thought your post was great Kid... Keep it up.


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## Hermitage59 (Apr 6, 2006)

Kid, Political Correctness suits most those who don't want something said, and has little to do with open discussion and everything to do with censorship, for THEIR purposes.
I read your post, and thought it excellent. You'd been careful enough not to name anyone, and yet still reflect what you felt and thought in an open and honest way. There's not enough of that these days, as we're criticised every time 'someone, somewhere', decides we've 'crossed a line', and rendered us politically incorrect.
(Ever noticed it's the most uncreative, and small minded people in the world that wave the 'PC' flag most often?)

I chopped mine for the same reason as you, as the inevitable negative reaction from the thin skinned would have been tedious.
In a way it's our fault that this continues, because everytime we pull our comments, we help perpetuate someone else's perception that they have the right to control and censor the things we write.

I've deleted mine completely, but if you still have that post in the history list somewhere, i'd stick it back up.

Ned, chin up dear fellow. We're in the same business, competing for the same work (although i'm working here in russia, and don't share the same 'sandpit' as you), and it's inevitable we're going to win some and lose some. You've written of this year being particularly replete with rejections. Measure it over a longer period, say 5 or 10 years. How are you doing? As i understand it, the industry there is changing quite rapidly, and although there are more opportunities, the pay's lower, and people are expecting more for less. Nothing changed there, then!

What have you changed in the last year? Is there a stylistic decision you made, moving in another direction? If no change, do you think the needs of the director/producer/ money man might have changed?
Is it just one of those moments in life where coincidence seems to hammer you all at once? (Had a few of these myself. Gritted the teeth and worked harder. But then i'm a bloody minded, determined chap.)

Be objective, and remember the law of percentage. If you work hard, keep your instincts sharp, keep the creativity fresh, be objective with yourself most of all, and tune into what's happening around you, then the law of averages says, that every rejection brings you one step closer to success.
See the goal, my friend, not the problem.

One of your esteemed fellow americans, a certain Calvin Coolidge, wrote of his personal philosophy, the first line of which reads,

"Persistence is the key to success."

I wish you much success in the future,

Alex.


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## Hermitage59 (Apr 6, 2006)

joaz @ Wed Apr 05 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Apr 04 said:
> 
> 
> > but inside, where emotions are born, each 'no' makes another little light go out.
> ...



Excellent post Joe.
I've written some of my best music, whilst fulminating about something. Just as valuable as other emotive states, and in certain cases more so.
It has been said by many in the past, that creativity shines brightest in the transition from one emotive state to another.
Can't be happy all the time, or the music would be boring!

Regards,

Alex.


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## wonshu (Apr 6, 2006)

Wow, I thought this thread was so good because someone (Ned!) finally stepped forward and admitted what all of us and pretty much everyone except the really big dawgs in this business suffer from daily.

And then we had those storys that were encouraging me to keep up because they show that I'm not alone with the trouble by giving a really insightful perspective.

And now? I'm just gonna have to save every post that I find motivating to come back to it later.

Hmmm. I'm not trying to be pushy because obviously you can say something and remove it. I'm just glad I got to read it before it was gone.

Funny thing: now I don't even remember which post exactly was pulled. 

Cheers
Hans


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## kid-surf (Apr 6, 2006)

Ok, thanks guys, maybe I was overreacting. It's just that, I really don't _want_ to offend anyone or come off as bitter. I try not to offend people.... but I also try to be real about this stuff. It's a fine line. 

Sometimes you wonder if you're being "too real", ya know? :D I don't want to be known as someone who "tells tales out of school". I can see how 'that' post may be taken that way but it's not my intention. So I'll just say once again I post it in the spirit of commiseration. (just so we're totally clear)

Yeah, I still have that post, I'll put it back up....

PS... Ned hang in there man! We all go through tough times, be proud of yourself for even putting yourself out there like this. Not everyone has the guts to do this....


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## kid-surf (Apr 6, 2006)

*I tell this story to try and help others not make the same mistake I did. Not to talk bad about anyone. As I take full responsibility for the outcome... I am leaving out names to protect the innocent. People I still like and hope am still friends with...*




> 4. Get as much information about a job as possible before starting, without annoying anyone.



That's what I failed to do recently and I got let go.......... I tried, but didn't try hard enough to get a critical meeting. I should have just said "I can't do a good job when I don't have enough info. I'm sorry, I can't start til we have this meeting.".




> 2. Try to find out why you didn't get the job and work on that issue, or maybe see if you can hear what your competitor did to get the job.




Well, ironically the guy who replaced me is a member of this forum. He was nice enough to tell me what direction the music went [I had no idea who replaced me till I checked IMDB the other day]. The direction of the score, ironically (again), is the same direction I was wanting to take it. I ended up not going that direction because of not accomplishing "#4". The direction it's going now is the same direction I _wanted_ to go after spotting it. In fact, I used the same temp score as the new composer. (only the director didn't get to hear it from me). Why not? I didn't push hard enough for a meeting where I would have shone this score as the temp. Instead I went with something closer to what we spoke about initially ('before' I saw/spotted the film). I felt that if I changed the direction at that point they may have let me go because it wouldn't have been what I said it was going to be initially. Do you get what I'm saying? It's not as convoluted as I make it out to be.

Anyway, I was so torn that I played it too safe and ended up doing a shitty cue. One that was way below me. My gut was telling me to just say, screw it, and write what I know I can write. What "i" knew was right, closer to what I temped. But then, would I have gone too far from what the director 'thought' I was gonna do? Would they hate that? That was the predicament. It's a really hard place to write from. I've never been in that position before, where I miss that 'solidifying' meeting yet am basically off to the races. It 'feels' like trying to guess what color some is going to like. And, you know, maybe they already think you know their favorite color....

My mistake was that I should have followed my gut, and been ok with getting let go. Because at least that way the music would have been what I thought it should have been. At least it would have been "good". I mean, I got let go anyway, and now all they know of me is bad music. That's not good. I'm far better than what I gave them. Doesn't matter now.

Follow your gut.......... it rarely lies to you. As I found out.




> 6. Don't be afraid to scrap what you are writing and start over. If it doesn't feel great early on, it should probably be scrapped.



Right, I turned in something that sucked as I wrote "tight". I turned in something that was far below my other work because because I didn't get "#4" accomplished. My fault....

The part that stings/stung is knowing that had I gotten that meeting, that I 'probably' wouldn't have been let go, as that is a style of music I do very well. We would have been on the same page at that point. But when you hand in something shitty that's all anyone sees. (understandably/yet regrettably)

The other thing that sucks is I can't help but think everyone on the film thinks I suck now. But the fact is, I don't, I just made a bad decision not to push harder for a meeting I needed which resulted in a bad cue. I put myself behind the eight ball by doing that. Yep, it sucks getting replaced on something that is totally your style of film. A genre you are very good at. But once I handed in a piece of crap cue, there was no going backwards. (your other music is sort of meaningless at that point, I'm sure). But the finger gets pointed right back at me. I take responsibility.

So my advice is: Yes, absolutely do #4 or you may find yourself painted into a corner (compositionally) not quite sure which way to write, as you simply don't have enough info to do a good job, and therefore are writing so "tight" that you are writing at a level that is way beneath you. I may have cost myself a working relationship as well. Time will tell if this director will ever trust me again. But you know, you basically get one shot with people. That's generally the way this works. And it went down like this all because (IMO) I didn't make a critical meeting happen that would have cleared up the direction of the film, solidifying it in 'my' mind, and therefor I would have been writing "FREE" knowing that the director and I where absolutely on the same page. At that point it's not about "guessing" (stabbing in the dark), hopping you don't deviate too much from a direction you aren't perfectly clear on anyway, but writing with "conviction" ready to kick some ass!

Totally my fault........ it didn't have to end up that way. It shouldn't have.



> 8. Don't take it personally, just keep on working hard, success will come.



Nope I don't take this stuff personally. And in this case how could I, in that situation it was "my" fault. I know I could/would have done a great score, so that's not really the issue. The issue was that I let 'not good' communication stifle the good music I 'usually' write. I know in my gut that if I'd just gotten past one more meeting that they would have been thrilled with the score. Knowing now what the score is going to be confirms that for me. That type of score is what I do. And I'm pretty dang good at it. (If I say so myself)

Oh well, lesson learned.........

But in general I never let any sort of rejection get me down and I certainly don't hold grudges. Hold a grudge for what? This isn't third grade.  I'm still rooting for the director (and would hope, still friends), as well I'm rooting for the other composer to deliver a good score. Why would I not? Just because I F'd up doesn't have anything to do with them. As well, i'm not going to blame the other side which can be common in these situations.

(I'm leaving all names out to protect the innocent. But you know, this is us composers lending support to one another. I'm not trying to talk junk on people. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned this. I'm not trying to offend anyone or complain. I'm trying to save people from making a similar mistake.)

----

Well, I'm not gonna take another film (I've been offered a few) till I'm sure the film is gonna be good. Then I'm gonna kick ass on it. 

Well, I have a particular film I'm going after, the script is friggn awesome. A very heady film, IMO has the potential for critical acclaim in a big way (the director already has representation and so forth, but it's a few mil indie). That is my focus right now, to land that. I'm perfect for this film. Then there's a film after that that is also pretty good that I want, also in the few mil range. I'm trying to get a meeting with the director for next week. Both guys are represented and in the system, so to speak.

Aside from that, I'm doing some spec stuff in particular genres because I don't want other composers to be considered better than me in them. (let's be real right :mrgreen: ) I plan to do about 8 cues I'm going to kick ass on (various genres). Cues, people probably assume I can't do.  One of the reasons I'm doing this is because I'm going to up the ante, I don't want to be considered lower, or more specific than I really am. And, you know, directors/producers and such don't know you can do something unless they hear it. No worries, I'll do it, and I'll do it so that it's really good, maybe better than what they're used to hearing. 

Don't mind me, i just have the eye of the tiger right now...... :D


Otherwise, we're all friends, right. :mrgreen:

It's pretty funny how we're all friends (aren't we?), yet we are all competing.... quite literally.

Well, competition is fun. Long as no one is bothered by it. I mean, it's the reality out there.

I wish us all the best. Sincerely. This isn't an easy job. You gotta be really tough mentally to do this...


Congrats to all of us. I mean that! Not everyone can handle this........

Best,
J

ps. Hope you enjoyed the novel.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 6, 2006)

[schild=14 fontcolor=FF0000 shadowcolor=FFA500 shieldshadow=0]CAUTION: Happy Ending!!!![/schild]
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*I landed an M.O.W. yesterday!* The contract's not signed yet, so I can't go into any detail. It's not the best paying gig I've had, but right now, the money is not the most important thing here. I'm just so happy to have broken a bad streak (almost one year). I was going for 3 different gigs and had been rejected for the first two on Monday and Tuesday. 

Thanks to *all* for your fantastic posts (Yo! HANS - Wonshu in in the house!!! Wilkommen!), and way to go Kid for re-posting. This community is extraordinary. Let's keep it as real as we can, for as long as possible.



:smile:  :razz:


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## wonshu (Apr 6, 2006)

*YEAHH!!!!*

Congrats, fingers crossed till everything is signed.

Cheers
-H


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## Stephen Rees (Apr 6, 2006)

Yaaaaaaaay. Good news all round. Congratulations Ned and thanks for reposting Kid.

I'm gonna show my huge ignorance here and ask what an M.O.W. is...... :???:


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 6, 2006)

Movie Of The Week. It's basically a tv-movie. This one is very lo-budget. :roll: :cry: :mrgreen:


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## Stephen Rees (Apr 6, 2006)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Apr 06 said:


> Movie Of The Week. It's basically a tv-movie. This one is very lo-budget. :roll: :cry: :mrgreen:



Aha thanks!

Best of luck with it


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## PaulR (Apr 6, 2006)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Apr 06 said:


> Movie Of The Week. It's basically a tv-movie. This one is very lo-budget. :roll: :cry: :mrgreen:



That's good....but did you think about rejecting their offer?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 6, 2006)

Paul,

Believe me, I've gone over the fee with the producer and with my agent. I *know* that there's very little money in the budget for music, in the same way as it's very clear from watching the movie that there was very little money for actors, decor, costumes, etc, etc, etc. If I had been on a roll work-wise, I would probably have said no, but after almost a year without commercial work...

Aside from the Hollywood-size movies, there's going to be less money for music per film/tv gig because of the fragmentation of the distribution channels (equals less money from advertisers, which equals smaller overall budgets). I have no intention to change careers because the pay is not going to be as great as it once was. I will just have to find more gigs, fight as hard as possible when negotiating the contracts for the ones I do land, and hope that royalties are paid out for online downloads, iPod content, etc.


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## fitch (Apr 6, 2006)

cool .. good news here then Ned :D

hope you have fun with it .. and hope it all goes smoothly :D


I knew it would work out for you :D


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## ComposerDude (Apr 6, 2006)

Congratulations, Ned.


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## José Herring (Apr 6, 2006)

That's what this community means to me. We need less of the bashing moments and more of the supporting our members when they need it the most.

Good job Ned! You have my philosophy, that is, when you got nothing goin' on don't say no to anything(unless it's a skin flick or something, but even then I'd have to think about it :smile: :shock .

Best,

Jose


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## Mike Greene (Apr 6, 2006)

That's fantastic, Ned! I'm happy for you!  

And excellent post, Kid. It really resonated with me.  

- Mike Greene


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## kid-surf (Apr 6, 2006)

Congrats Ned! That's great!

And thanks guys, just trying to 'keep it real'


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## autopilot (Apr 6, 2006)

Seriously, this is one of the most inspiring threads I've ever read. 

And congrats Ned!

Just had funding knocked back (again) on my big project I've been trying to get up for years now. This thread at least has reminded me that the rejection thing is universal. 

I'd say sticky it myself.

Cheers all.


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## TheoKrueger (Apr 6, 2006)

Congratulations Ned! This is really good news and well deserved.


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## rJames (Apr 6, 2006)

Late to the thread...good luck on the movie Ned. It will lead to another, no doubt.


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## Peter Alexander (Apr 7, 2006)

Hermitage59 @ Thu Apr 06 said:


> joaz @ Wed Apr 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Apr 04 said:
> ...



Like many of the Psalms by David. 

"The ropes of death were wrapped around me;
"the torrents of destruction terrified me. 
"The ropes of Sheol entangled me;" Psalm 18:4-5
the snares of death confronted me.


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## Peter Alexander (Apr 7, 2006)

RE: #4

Jay, I'm not sure I can entirely go with this, and here's why.

Before he died, I worked for Hank Mancini. And this subject came up. It was one of those moments I got to slide in a question. 

Hank's experience was that he had learned not to ask too many questions, especially if the producer and director weren't in agreement. He told me that if he didn't get it, he'd just shut up and keep listening until he did get it. 

I think the other thing I've learned is that you get the gig. Hank got his big break by simply walking out a barber shop when he saw Blake Edwards. Edwards said, "Hey, Hank, you wanna write the music for a TV show I'm doing?"

Hank said (in a heartbeat), "Yeah."

I believe the TV show turned out to be Mr. Lucky and he never once saw a script before he said yes.

If it helps, Alfred Hitchcock threw out one of Hank's scores and replaced him. And Jerry (Goldsmith) was replaced by Tangerine Dream.

MIklos Rozsa once made a remark about a producer and no one hired him for a year. During the year, he wrote concert music and had several performances.

Helps to keep your toes in a few different puddles here and there.


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## Waywyn (Apr 8, 2006)

Ha, it's actually really cool to read the thread and how it turns on page three. It is nearly like a good book written by several people  Gratz Ned and good luck!

I want to add one thing: What really sucks is the situation, that a guy gets a major title game by doing it for nearly free and the producer didn't recognize that the composer sucks big time. So i wasn't jelaous that he got the gig ... well, yes maybe i was, but i wasn't jealous because somebody else got it, i was more angry that a guy gets a gig without having a clue how to compose something.

In the end the score turned out to be a half disaster and i was kinda evil smiling when I was reading the critics in the games magazine and when i heard that they involved another company later to complete the score to at least rescue something.

So in the end I wanna say that we all have a talent and everyone has a style of writing. No matter if he is a professional or a hobby guy. Of course a pro who is doing it for 10 or 15 years has a big name and a big knowledge, but in the end it doesn't mean that his/her ideas are any better than of a guy who just started to compose. Yeh, the pro's realization of the project is definitely more routined, but the idea itself?? I would say no.

But what would be the best to do then, if there are clients out there who can't even differentiate between a pro or a semi pro, or a complete loser??
It is all a matter of likes and taste. Our music is good but it wasn't probably the right tune in the right moment at the right place. Sometimes an idiot makes it.
So keep on believe in yourself in what you can, know your weak spots, work on them and stay straight


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 8, 2006)

Good points Alex, but the more experienced composer might bring to the project much more than the 'right' cues: there's a lot to be said for having had the experience of working under crazy deadlines (oh, they've changed the final lock, and some scenes have been reworked - or the mix has been pushed to an earlier date); having dealt with directors who are not good at communicating; knowing when to say 'stop' to yourself when you've spent much too much time trying to make one of your ideas work for a given scene; having already made the mistake in the past of making a big change in your music-making set up during a big contract; knowing that it's best to sleep on a mix so that you hear it fresh in the morning; etc, etc, etc.

My point is that although you may get the same music from an experienced composer and a newbie, by hiring the older one, you're getting more than musical talent, and those extra things _can_ make a big difference in the end, especially when there's not much room for error.


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## gravehill (Apr 8, 2006)

Another side of the coin:

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=42751


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## Patrick de Caumette (Apr 8, 2006)

Congrats Ned!

Funny how things can change so quickly :smile:


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 8, 2007)

It's because I was fortunate enough to pitch on 3 different projects in the same month. :smile:


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