# PSP Vintage Warmer or The Virtual Console Collection from Slate Digital?



## Valérie_D (Mar 28, 2015)

I am wondering which one would be better for piano and cello libraries tracks..

Thanks!

http://www.pspaudioware.com/plugins/dyn ... gewarmer2/

http://www.slatedigital.com/products/vcc/


----------



## jtnyc (Mar 28, 2015)

Although they can both color and saturate, they are quite different. I don't own the Slate stuff, but I do own the Vintage Warmer. The VW is also a compressor (single or multi band) and brickwall limiter. It's really great. I sometimes use it on a drum bus for some subtle saturation and glue, or right on the master bus. I'll also use it on single tracks to beef up a weak recording to add some girth and drive. It takes a bit of time to get used to the way it works. It's a bit of a beast. I like it for many things, but not all.

I believe you can demo it. Check it out and see for yourself. 

Good luck -


----------



## Lemmonz (Mar 28, 2015)

Depends on what you are looking to add to your mixes. Vintage Warmer is a saturation/dynamics processor and Slate's VCC is saturation/summing processor. So while somewhat similar, they are also quite different. The Slate's VCC saturation is subtle, at first, compared to Vintage Warmer. VCC involves setting up your mix around it, using an instance on every track to really do it's job. Vintage Warmer can be used like any other plugin. 

Look up videos for reviews of each and download their demo versions to see what which one might work best for you. You should find that they sound completely different so hopefully that'll clear your decision up quickly. Or, just buy both!


----------



## JT3_Jon (Mar 28, 2015)

This all depends on what you have already, your budget, and exactly what "cello & piano library" music means (I'm assuming it its not experimental / bombastic, but traditional more subdued music?) but I personally think proper knowledge of the free EQ / Compressors in your DAW + a high quality reverb will get you further than adding saturation plugins alone. So if you're looking for a "magic bullet" plugin - these are not. 

If you do need something to help take the "edge off" and can't quite get it with EQ, these tools can help. You can also try some of the tape saturation plugins on the market who's goal is to take that "digital edge" off. I've heard the best budget one is from Toneboosters, but I use UAD for this. Again these plugins are not "magic bullets" and of course they do find uses and are not to be written off completely, however their effects (especially console emulations like VCC) can be subtle and are not usually heard unless spread across many channels in a mix. 

That being said, Vintage Warmer is a GREAT plugin and I've used on tracks that I want to be more rich sounding (i.e. more harmonics) with good results. It can do subtle to "destroy your track." VCC is also great, and when I A-B my mixes with and without, 9xs out of 10x I pick the one with VCC. If you're looking for serious a tone shaping plugin, I'd go PSP. If you are looking for subtle color, go VCC or even VTM. Of course demo both of these on your own music first before deciding (both offer downloadable demos, but you need an ilok for Slate stuff). It might be worth checking out the PSP mix pack as well, as it has some great saturation tools and might be a bit cheaper? (dont remember - but all PSP stuff is top notch). 

Hope this helps.


----------



## synergy543 (Mar 28, 2015)

Softube makes a free saturation plugin that works very nicely on piano with low settings that keep it very subtle.

http://www.softube.com/index.php?id=satknob

The PSP OldTimer also has a similar subtle effect I like on acoustic instruments. The Vintage Warmer is great tool as well but can be quite a bit more aggressive.

http://www.pspaudioware.com/plugins/dyn ... ldtimerme/

My current favorite saturation though is the Softube Saturation, though I love the PSP plugins.


----------



## Valérie_D (Mar 29, 2015)

Thank You for this!


----------



## Valérie_D (Mar 29, 2015)

JT3_Jon @ Sat Mar 28 said:


> This all depends on what you have already, your budget, and exactly what "cello & piano library" music means (I'm assuming it its not experimental / bombastic, but traditional more subdued music?) but I personally think proper knowledge of the free EQ / Compressors in your DAW + a high quality reverb will get you further than adding saturation plugins alone. So if you're looking for a "magic bullet" plugin - these are not.
> 
> If you do need something to help take the "edge off" and can't quite get it with EQ, these tools can help. You can also try some of the tape saturation plugins on the market who's goal is to take that "digital edge" off. I've heard the best budget one is from Toneboosters, but I use UAD for this. Again these plugins are not "magic bullets" and of course they do find uses and are not to be written off completely, however their effects (especially console emulations like VCC) can be subtle and are not usually heard unless spread across many channels in a mix.
> 
> ...



Well, I am starting to wonder if a reverb would do. I just bought 2 valhlhala reverb plugins and my music is really simple, I am doing an album with Christof Unterberger right now so : piano and live cello. Maybe it's warmth enough as it is, please chime in :D 

Here is the style of my library tracks :

https://soundcloud.com/val-rie-delaney/flying-high

https://soundcloud.com/val-rie-delaney/ ... -variation

Maybe just the rctube would be interesting : http://www.slatedigital.com/products/rc-tube


----------



## blougui (Mar 29, 2015)

Valérie, You might want to check u-he SATIN :
http://www.u-he.com/cms/satin
Same as Stlate product : you have to insert the plug in on each track + on the master bus. You can use it as a emulation of a tape delay as well.
You can demo it for free. No dongle, as much iteration on how many machines you'ld like or need.
Urs Heckman's company has a great user service on top of its top notch products.

Erik


----------



## JT3_Jon (Mar 29, 2015)

It really all depends on what you want YOUR sound to be (emphasis on you . I was only able to listen on my macbook speakers at the moment and it sounds very good. Great playing! To me the cello could use some reverb - but this is just my opinion - again it all comes down to your vision. 

I do recommend downloading and demoing the plugins suggested above and giving them a whirl. Going through the presets is a quick and easy way to get an idea of the sound of each of these plugins and see if you like it. Mixing, just like piano playing, is a skill developed with real world practice and experience. Just make sure you have a clear idea of what you want in your minds ear, and you will achieve it eventually (or at least come close). I personally still can't quite get to what I hear in my head, but I get close enough that it makes me happy - plus I have room to grow and explore! Enjoy the journey.


----------



## KEnK (Mar 29, 2015)

JT3_Jon @ Sat Mar 28 said:


> ...You can also try some of the tape saturation plugins on the market who's goal is to take that "digital edge" off..


I use some form of saturation on all my mixes now-
Imo the already mentioned uhe Satin is the best-
but I also like preamp models
The Klanghelm SDRR is quite good as is Fabfilter's multi band Saturn.
I get a lot of mileage out of SPL's TwinTube- but only on individual tracks
Never tried it on a mix bus (maybe I should)

I do like PSP's vintage warmer and use their eq's regularly. Love 'em in fact!
But in spite of the time I've put into VW, it's still tricky to dial in exactly what I want.
This might be me not really grasping it though. It is a good plug, but odd.

I had a similar difficulty w/ wrapping my head around the Brainworx Digital2.
The interface seemed alien to me for a long time-
but now I understand it and it's incredibly useful to me.

Saturation is a really good thing-
and it's surprising how many different flavors there are

k


----------



## tokatila (Mar 29, 2015)

blougui @ Sun Mar 29 said:


> Urs Heckman's company has *THE BEST* user service on top of its top notch products.
> 
> Erik



Fixed that for you. Seriously, that's one company you can't go wrong with. I also like their pricing model. Intro price cheaper, then fixed price and no seasonal discounts. I hate that when one needs to buy something then you have to wait for the next red saturday or something. Not with them.


----------



## wst3 (Mar 29, 2015)

If you are recording live cello and/or live piano then I'd start with microphone selection and placement. You'll be amazed at how much you can 'color' a track with just microphone selection and placement. (Room choice is equally powerful, but few of us have that option!)

If only the cello is live then perhaps consider a different piano library? There are so many piano libraries out there, and they cover a very wide spectrum of sounds.

I do like Vintage Warmer, and it is capable of a lot of different tricks, including the elusive gluing or warming of a track or mix.

Thus far the Slate plugins have not leapt out at me. They are good, but they don't offer me anything new. I might feel differently if I were starting out.

Specifics... as I suggested above, I always find I like my mixes best when I've been satisfied with the individual tracks... consider dealing with the tracks first. And for individual tracks I think Vintage Warmer is a good choice.

If you still feel like you need something on the mix I'd try pretty much all the plug-ins listed above.

I am fortunate to have the UAD tape emulators, so in your position I'd use one of them, probably on the tracks themselves.

Last thought - I'm really not sure what you are trying to accomplish here, I liked the tracks a lot, but actually felt at times (especially in Flying) that the piano could have been a bit more detailed - proving once again that personal taste makes these discussions so difficult<G>!


----------



## Hannes_F (Mar 29, 2015)

When speaking of experiences with my own string recordings ... saturation has often turned out as a two sided sword. I have been back and forth with all sorts of saturators, enhancers, tape emulators, console emulations and so forth. The story is often, that they have an instant 'wow' effect. However when I listen to the mix after some time I notice that often the overall quality has somehow been lowered and something brittly and cheap has been introduced.

More often than not I end up deactivating the saturation ... but I admit I am tempted again and again. 

BTW same with EQ. It is somewhat ironical that I have a nice collection of expensive plugins in the EQ and saturation realm but the more I mix the less I use them and get back to mixing by balancing plus reverb.

Listening to your music I personally would reach to a dynamic EQ first and reduce some of the boom in the low mids. I mostly use Melda MDynamicEQ for it but Toneboosters TB_Fix seems to work very nicely too and I like its sound. That plus a touch of reverb on the cello would probably do it for me.


----------



## tokatila (Mar 29, 2015)

I have listened Pensacola's place quite a lot and judging from the interviews many mixers use saturation to bring instrument out from the "wall of sound".

Not sure how relevant saturation would be if your arrangement is minimal.


----------



## wst3 (Mar 29, 2015)

Hannes_F @ Sun Mar 29 said:


> Listening to your music I personally would reach to a dynamic EQ first and reduce some of the boom in the low mids. I mostly use Melda MDynamicEQ for it but Toneboosters TB_Fix seems to work very nicely too and I like its sound. That plus a touch of reverb on the cello would probably do it for me.



As always, excellent advice from Hannes!

Dynamic EQ or multi-band compressors can work (nearly) miracles. They take some practice to use well, but they are well worth learning to use. Because they affect dynamic range they can be very effective at "gluing" a mix together.

Izotope used to publish a wonderful e-book with a terribly inappropriate title about mastering. Don't let the title fool you, the book is well worth reading, and while you can not learn to ride a bike by reading a book, there are enough examples you can work through that it will speed up the process of learning to use multi-band compressors or dynamic equalizers.

As far as suggestions, I'd try to find a free one to experiment with, since you can't really learn to use one in the time that most demos provide. After that you can look at the various options. My favorite is probably Ozone, but UAD, Waves, Voxengo, PSP, Melda, and others make wonderful alternatives.

Have fun!


----------



## Hannes_F (Mar 29, 2015)

tokatila @ Sun Mar 29 said:


> I have listened Pensado's place quite a lot and judging from the interviews many mixers use saturation to bring instrument out from the "wall of sound".
> 
> Not sure how relevant saturation would be if your arrangement is minimal.



Yes that can be really useful for example if you want to highlight a theme in the celli or viola section while everybody else is playing above them. The masking effect of our ears is really remarkable and can bury much of the overtones of violas, celli and basses. In that sort of situation I have found Waves' REDD console nicely working (with live recordings). It has a saturation knob that can be automated.

However the situation here is different imo. One more thought: You submit this track to libraries, right? If a music editor chooses the track, puts it under dialoge / sfx and decides to highlight it it is easy to add some saturation then. The other way round it does not work, you can not really 'unsaturate' unfortunately.

+1 to Bill's advice to experiment yourself. Making mixes in order to revise them the next day is part of the journey


----------



## Valérie_D (Mar 29, 2015)

This is great advices everybody!

Yes Hannes, I did not think of that one, maybe I shoud just control the balance and reverb the mix just a bit but keep the voices as clear as possible, since I don't know in which production it will end up.

I use the american d ivory concert and only the cello is live.

Maybe trying only the dynamic Eqs you suggested and then reverb the mix a little would do the trick, better leave the saturation to the clients, if they feel they need it for their projects.

...What about Fabfilter ProQ 2?

*I just read a review and it seems great but not dynamic.


----------



## Hannes_F (Mar 29, 2015)

Valérie, by all means make your own tests with everything and your experiences 

Here is a conclusion that I have come to after my experiments: Saturation adds to a 'wall of sound' effect, with other words it makes a mix more opaque. Natural string recordings usually are very transparent compared to most sample libraries (because those often already have processing / tape etc. in them). If you want to go from transparent to more opaque then saturation is the ticket. But it is a one way ticket, once overdone there is no way back (without overall dulling the recording).*

EDIT: Dynamic EQ is the way here, not a static one. The TB one is only 20 EUR but sounds very good on strings because it somehow does the phase thing right. You can try it for 2 weeks.

*) OK there _are _ways to de-harsh a mix: bx_refinement, dynamic EQ, multibandcompressors. But those are like crutches - good to have and sometimes necessary, but not to overly harshen it up in the beginning is way better imo.


----------



## sinkd (Mar 30, 2015)

Valerie,

Aren't you a DP user? There is a good Dynamic EQ included in DP 8. Also I just listened to 'Flying High' on Sound Cloud. I would suggest that the track would be stronger without the second 'cello entrance and that you can get a good result just with a more prominent 'cello in the mix.

DS


----------



## Valérie_D (Mar 30, 2015)

sinkd @ Mon Mar 30 said:


> Valerie,
> 
> Aren't you a DP user? There is a good Dynamic EQ included in DP 8. Also I just listened to 'Flying High' on Sound Cloud. I would suggest that the track would be stronger without the second 'cello entrance and that you can get a good result just with a more prominent 'cello in the mix.
> 
> DS



I will try the one in DP, thanks!

Valérie


----------



## mscottweber (Mar 30, 2015)

What exactly are you trying to fix in your mixes? What sound do you want that you do not yet have?

Since you are trying to combine a live cello with a sampled concert grand, are you having issues getting the two instruments to sound like they are playing together in the same space?

Or...

Is it more of a "tone" thing, where you just aren't happy with the way the instruments sound (something sounds too shrill and thin, or too muddy and blurry)?


----------



## Valérie_D (Mar 30, 2015)

Well, I am happy with the sound so far but I would like to experiment a little bit, with the right tools, just to see if I can achieve both having them played in the same room and maybe find a new tone too. 

I have yet to experiment, maybe everything is good as it is and I don't want to ruin it either. That's why I'm calling you guys to help me, I want to try some subtle effects,reverb, analog tape machine, dynmic eq, etc, just to see if something good could come out of it :D


----------

