# New Eastwest Library: Hollywood Backup Singers



## Andoran (Dec 29, 2019)

Just heard about this today, gave it an initial listen, very interesting. Discuss.


Hollywood Backup Singers


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## Zedcars (Dec 29, 2019)

Went to their site looking for demos. Came away disappointed (did I miss something?). The trailer didn’t do it for me. Kinda strange to have singers going crazy with no discernible intelligible words other than “you”. Remains to be seen if this will be any good.


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## robgb (Dec 29, 2019)

Is it just me or does that vocal riff in the beginning sound off key? I used to have perfect pitch, but I'm not sure if that's true anymore. My ears are shot.


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## Andoran (Dec 29, 2019)

I also hear some intonation issues, especially at around :05 and :14 or so, but part of me thinks that makes it more human and authentic (in the age of "just melodyne everything")


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## dzilizzi (Dec 29, 2019)

And still no Male singers?

It sounds off key to me also.


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## paul (Dec 29, 2019)

robgb said:


> Is it just me or does that vocal riff in the beginning sound off key? I used to have perfect pitch, but I'm not sure if that's true anymore. My ears are shot.


Your ears are not shot - it is slightly off key ("shot ears" tend to have "volume and harmonic issues" - but good pitch is an "intellectual" gift from birth!) _Keep listening!_


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## Wolf68 (Dec 29, 2019)

the teaser deos not tell much. without a walkthrough video hard to judge if it will be usable or not.
my personal assumption is that it will be on par with "voices of opera". 
I hope that I am wrong.


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## DSmolken (Dec 29, 2019)

Tough thing they're trying to do - backing vocals that can sing any English lyrics. Judging by the trailer, they're basically limited to one timbre and consonant timing is sometimes unnatural, but might be a lot easier to use than something like Vocaloid. Interesting to see progress being made in that area.


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## pmcrockett (Dec 29, 2019)

My experience with EW's wordbuilder libraries has been that much better results are ultimately possible with them than early demos would suggest, so I'm optimistic. I'm not on Composer Cloud, though, and I don't see myself having as much of a need for this as for a choir, so I'm not going to be an early adopter.


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## JohnnyH (Dec 30, 2019)

Wish they'd hurry up and announce a price and maybe a pre-sale discount, but unfortunately I think they are just looking to funnel everyone onto their annual Composer Cloud subscription these days.


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## paul (Dec 30, 2019)

Odd thing today - I've just listened to EW online demo again just now - and tuning "appears" to be better?

_Either I'm losing the plot or the guys at EW have read this forum strand and fixed it..........?_

* I must agree with pmcrockett - their Wordbuilder works fairly well. I've used it with an EW choir years ago and fooled a lot of listeners especially when you mix it in with one or two real voices.


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## webs (Dec 30, 2019)

JohnnyH said:


> Wish they'd hurry up and announce a price and maybe a pre-sale discount, but unfortunately I think they are just looking to funnel everyone onto their annual Composer Cloud subscription these days.



what we do know is that on http://www.soundsonline.com/hollywood-backup-singers they say "For less than the cost of purchasing Hollywood Backup Singers..." we can be on the 199 composer cloud, so it would seem it will "list" initially for greater than 199.


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## JohnnyH (Dec 30, 2019)

Yes, I'd noticed that. Fingers crossed it's not priced too high. I'd hoped for an introductory price like they did with Voices Of Soul. Maybe they'll release more details at the turn of the year.


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## JohnnyH (Dec 30, 2019)

Just a quick heads up that I've spotted it in a store for $299.


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## Robert_G (Dec 30, 2019)

Wolf68 said:


> my personal assumption is that it will be on par with "voices of opera".
> I hope that I am wrong.



Yup. VOO is terrible


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## JohnnyH (Dec 31, 2019)

I don't have experience with VOO but Voices Of Soul seems like a closer comparison and that was good.


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## Mark Schmieder (Jan 7, 2020)

Quite cheap at 170 quid, but only one demo so far?









Music Software | Gear4music


Music Software | Gear4music




www.timespace.com





I dig CC White and the other two as well, and write a lot in this genre, so it might only need to be passable, to help at mock-up stage in delivering something that has some hope of selling the song to a live singer.

I put a lot of projects on hold for years, where I need female singers (which is most of my pop stuff as the muse hits me as it does vs. me writing to my own voice).

At various times, I have had strong contacts that I had to be careful "when" to cash in, but I recontacted one of them just now to see if he thinks this product might be helpful towards the sorts of mock-ups that a songwriter can use to sell a song to a publisher or to a recording artist.

I doubt I'd ever use something like this for an actual commercial release per se, and am not sure if that is its intention. My guess is that it is primarily intended for the purpose I just stated. I could be wrong.

I was not impressed by Voices of Opera either.


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## Fleer (Jan 7, 2020)

And only 10GB?


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## chocobitz825 (Jan 7, 2020)

robgb said:


> Is it just me or does that vocal riff in the beginning sound off key? I used to have perfect pitch, but I'm not sure if that's true anymore. My ears are shot.



Pitchy back vocals....the most realistic simulation to date!


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## ManicMiner (Jan 8, 2020)

I was just about to buy Voices of Soul and someone told me to wait for Backup Singers.

The trailer is ok but I wrote to them and said, "where's the walkthrough?" They said it was coming. I want to hear the instruments and the word builder in action before I buy.
They simply said a tutorial was "coming" and they pointed me to the PDF manual.
This looks like the library I've been waiting for, just need to hear the walkthrough to confirm that.

The 9GB library file size, does look a little on the low side for me though. I've got a question in my mind about that. Unless EW store their samples very compressed and then their player uncompresses them. Btw, they did say I needed their new play engine for the new wordbuilder to work.


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## Pianolando (Jan 8, 2020)

This sounds like absolute crap to my ears, in so many ways. It's not even close to being in tune, and by that I don't mean un-auto-tuned...if the singers in my studio sang this out of tune they would have to do new takes until they at least were close until I started working with it. Plus it sounds super unrealistic and fake from second 1.

What is happening at East West these days???

EDIT: "Includes 588 solo phrases" and just then in the video she sings an absolute awful wail. I can't believe they actually release either the product or the video like this. Is there no executive producer who can just say no?


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## JohnnyH (Jan 8, 2020)

I've had a brief play around with it and I'm happy so far, but then I was always prepared with some limitations in what it could do. In more exposed settings its flaws will be more evident, but nestled within the mix it seems like it will be very useful. 

I haven't even bothered listening to the solo phrases so far since I don't really think that's the focus of a library like this. It's a handy addition to have, but there's plenty of other places to get that kind of thing.


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## ManicMiner (Jan 8, 2020)

JohnnyH said:


> I don't really think that's the focus of a library like this.


I think the library is intended to be a colourful support to whatever else is going on. I too don't think its supposed to be something that is a main focus.

If you could do a video highlighting of some of the instruments, that would be nice 
...Although EW should have done this already.


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## Mark Schmieder (Jan 8, 2020)

Not surprised that I'm getting cold feet yet again with an EW product. Haven't bought anything since shortly after paying out a lot of money for the Play "upgrade" from Kompakt/Kontakt. I'm only just now discovering that there's a lot of useful stuff in the old libraries after all, but I am having trouble justifying spending money on non-resalable products that seem to consistently be "short" on the demos and specs before the entry level price fades from view... and I by now have too many subscriptions already for vendors whose products are nowhere near the top of my weekly use list.

Nevertheless I look forward to others' experience and am still willing to bite at this price, if something convincing gets posted between now and the end-of-discount date.


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## aside (Jan 8, 2020)

The oohs and aahs can be quite good with some tweaking. I haven't been able to get anything close to useable out of the word builder. Even they're preset 'words' are bizarre, I can't work out if I'm smoking crack or they were


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## madfloyd (Jan 9, 2020)

Aren't there already ooohs and ahhhs in Voices of Soul?


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## aside (Jan 9, 2020)

madfloyd said:


> Aren't there already ooohs and ahhhs in Voices of Soul?



Yep, but now she has two friends. Make's it easier and faster to get a block down - and the texture is more interesting given the extra voices.

It's actually pretty cool, just don't believe the 'you type it she sings' marketing.


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## Robert_G (Jan 9, 2020)

aside said:


> It's actually pretty cool, just don't believe the 'you type it she sings' marketing.



Hollywood choir is advertised the same. You type the word....they sing it.....yeah no....doesnt happen like that....not even close


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## Fleer (Jan 9, 2020)

Wasn’t one of these three (CC White) known for her backing of The Wall?


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## OrChester (Jan 9, 2020)

Can anyone compare this to Realivox The Ladies? Seems like the same idea, no? I've used The Ladies with mixed results.


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 9, 2020)

It sounded off to me when I first gave it a listen. I suppose it might end up being useful to mix with some real singers to fatten up the sound, but it doesn’t sound particularly good on its own.


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## DSmolken (Jan 9, 2020)

OrChester said:


> Can anyone compare this to Realivox The Ladies? Seems like the same idea, no? I've used The Ladies with mixed results.


Ladies don't do words,so that's a big difference. Reassembling words from phoneme transitions is a very hard task, though, partly because it's easy for humans to pick up on when something isn't quite right - we've been evolving defenses against other people trying to deceive us with words for thousands of years.

Would be interesting to see the same words compared with this vs. three layered Vocaloids.


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## OrChester (Jan 9, 2020)

DSmolken said:


> Ladies don't do words,so that's a big difference. Reassembling words from phoneme transitions is a very hard task, though, partly because it's easy for humans to pick up on when something isn't quite right - we've been evolving defenses against other people trying to deceive us with words for thousands of years.
> 
> Would be interesting to see the same words compared with this vs. three layered Vocaloids.



The Ladies -- sort of -- do words -- if you combine available syllables -- and get lucky. (Admittedly not ANY word and rarely perfectly). As I said, I've had mixed success. Sometimes if they "singalong" with a lead vocal, even if you can't get the exact words, if you match vowel sounds -- leaving any missing consonants to be covered solely by the (real) lead vox -- it can barely pass.... I think the quality of the voices is pretty good.


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## Alfeus Aditya (Jan 10, 2020)

I only tested it briefly and I agreed, the sound was out of tune. this is an example that I can give (the original and tuned). 
In my opinion, this sample library is good but is not intended to stand alone, as the name suggests.


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## madfloyd (Jan 10, 2020)

Wow, that's pretty noticeable.


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## Rtomproductions (Jan 10, 2020)

aside said:


> Yep, but now she has two friends. Make's it easier and faster to get a block down - and the texture is more interesting given the extra voices.
> 
> It's actually pretty cool, just don't believe the 'you type it she sings' marketing.



Meh, it's closer than you might think. I was fairly surprised at how nimble the WB patches were. It took a little bit of time to learn the quirks and understand how the WB patches worked. The biggest thing for me was realizing that the last consonant sounded AFTER the end of the MIDI note, so you had to basically cut the note quite short in order to get a clear distinction between the first and second syllables.

As for tuning issues, the WB patches were a bit off; I found that fine tuning them up about 30 cents was just right. 20 would probably be right at 440 to my ears, but the extra 10 cents makes it a bit sweeter.

It's a fairly unique library that fills a unique niche, and it does so well enough IMO.


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 10, 2020)

Rtomproductions said:


> Meh, it's closer than you might think. I was fairly surprised at how nimble the WB patches were. It took a little bit of time to learn the quirks and understand how the WB patches worked. The biggest thing for me was realizing that the last consonant sounded AFTER the end of the MIDI note, so you had to basically cut the note quite short in order to get a clear distinction between the first and second syllables.
> 
> As for tuning issues, the WB patches were a bit off; I found that fine tuning them up about 30 cents was just right. 20 would probably be right at 440 to my ears, but the extra 10 cents makes it a bit sweeter.
> 
> It's a fairly unique library that fills a unique niche, and it does so well enough IMO.



If samples are pitchy, they should fix it, though. You shouldn’t have to do it yourself.


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## Alfeus Aditya (Jan 10, 2020)

mralmostpopular said:


> If samples are pitchy, they should fix it, though. You shouldn’t have to do it yourself.



Yes. At least if they have a reason to keep the sample sounding natural, they can offer two versions. original and tuned

I hope EW monitors the thread


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## El Buhdai (Jan 10, 2020)

pmcrockett said:


> My experience with EW's wordbuilder libraries has been that much better results are ultimately possible with them than early demos would suggest, so I'm optimistic. I'm not on Composer Cloud, though, and I don't see myself having as much of a need for this as for a choir, so I'm not going to be an early adopter.



Really? Any tips? I haven't been able to manage to get anything convincing from Hollywood Choirs (at least the WordBuilder), but then again it came out when I was much worse at mockups and I haven't touched the Word Builder since.


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## pmcrockett (Jan 11, 2020)

El Buhdai said:


> Really? Any tips? I haven't been able to manage to get anything convincing from Hollywood Choirs (at least the WordBuilder), but then again it came out when I was much worse at mockups and I haven't touched the Word Builder since.


I have a post here with some wordbuilder tips.


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## ManicMiner (Jan 11, 2020)

I wish there was a walkthrough video for this. I am really on the fence about it.
Not necessarily a full walkthrough of the word-builder, but just some patches: sustains, solo phrases.
EW just put a couple of demo songs on their webpage which are new.
EW are at NAMM and there may be a few people wandering around videoing next week. Hopefully.


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## Eptesicus (Jan 11, 2020)

robgb said:


> Is it just me or does that vocal riff in the beginning sound off key? I used to have perfect pitch, but I'm not sure if that's true anymore. My ears are shot.



Not, it isnt just you . It is a bit off.


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## Drjay (Jan 29, 2020)

In the meantime, there is a walktrough video online. Is it just me, or do the consonants at the beginning of the words sound washy? I can hardly recognise them. It is a pity, since I like the overall sound of the library.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 30, 2020)

Drjay said:


> In the meantime, there is a walktrough video online. Is it just me, or do the consonants at the beginning of the words sound washy? I can hardly recognise them. It is a pity, since I like the overall sound of the lintary.


Is a lintary, like, a place where they store and exhibit lint?


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## pmcrockett (Jan 30, 2020)

Drjay said:


> In the meantime, there is a walktrough video online. Is it just me, or do the consonants at the beginning of the words sound washy? I can hardly recognise them. It is a pity, since I like the overall sound of the lintary.


Starting consonants are one of the things that have to be finessed pretty hard in these wordbuilder libraries. Part of the issue is that default word constructions don't make the vowel sustains fade in, and they generally ought to, so all of the syllable attacks are too forceful by default (but vowel fade is easy to fix manually, at least). There are also a lot of cases where default consonants are too loud, too long, need to be blended with something else, or need to be omitted and placed on the end of the previous word instead. There's a lot of tinkering involved in getting really good results.

To be clear, I've only spent about an hour so far playing around with Hollywood Backup Singers, but so far it behaves almost identically to Hollywood Choirs, which I already have a solid grasp of.


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## zvenx (Jan 30, 2020)

Are EastWest still on one activation per license?
I am amazed that this model still persists to this day. 
I assume VSL has the same issue with e-licenser?
rsp


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## kessel (Jan 30, 2020)

here is a walkthrough video that shows some more info on this library


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## dzilizzi (Jan 30, 2020)

zvenx said:


> Are EastWest still on one activation per license?
> I am amazed that this model still persists to this day.
> I assume VSL has the same issue with e-licenser?
> rsp


I put it on my iLok, so it goes on as many computers as I want.


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## Home Studio 87 (Jan 30, 2020)

2 licenses for "Play" but only one license for library


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## Alfeus Aditya (Feb 1, 2020)

I just made a demo video and recorded it in real time using this library as backing singers (not lead singers).
No talk. Sorry if it's a little boring, my voice is very annoying when trying to speak english :(


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## ChazC (Feb 1, 2020)

Alfeus Aditya said:


> I just made a demo video and recorded it in real time using this library as backing singers (not lead singers).
> No talk. Sorry if it's a little boring, my voice is very annoying when trying to speak english :(
> [/MEDIA]



Thanks for taking the time to do this. Much appreciated. EastWest should have done something like this as opposed to the 'walkthrough' they put out.


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## pmcrockett (Feb 2, 2020)

So I've spent a bit of time playing with the library. Overall, it behaves the same way as the other wordbuilder libraries, with mostly the same idiosyncrasies. I think it's going to be harder to get really good results with this than with Hollywood Choirs because of the small ensemble size and the fact that the styles it's appropriate for aren't necessarily reverb heavy. Both of these things make masking problems more difficult.

Like Hollywood Choirs, the sound and level of the phonemes aren't 100% consistent across the full range, so copy/pasting words to a second voice means you have to do some cleanup on the wordbuilder programming to get that voice sounding right.

If you're good with the wordbuilder and willing to spend the time on it, I could see this working extremely well sitting behind lead vocals. I think another useful application of the library will be doubling/complementing other vocal libraries, both multi-sampled and phrase-based, because the wordbuilder will let you duplicate whatever nonsense words the other library uses. I haven't done any testing in either of these contexts yet, but that'll be the next thing I explore.



Here's the first two phrases of "Amazing Grace," with extensive wordbuilder programming. There are some issues, but it's just a test so I'm not going to spend any more time polishing it. First pass is two voices with a bit of reverb, second pass is only the melody with no reverb. I'm using the close and room mics.


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## Rtomproductions (Feb 2, 2020)

pmcrockett said:


> So I've spent a bit of time playing with the library. Overall, it behaves the same way as the other wordbuilder libraries, with mostly the same idiosyncrasies. I think it's going to be harder to get really good results with this than with Hollywood Choirs because of the small ensemble size and the fact that the styles it's appropriate for aren't necessarily reverb heavy. Both of these things make masking problems more difficult.
> 
> Like Hollywood Choirs, the sound and level of the phonemes aren't 100% consistent across the full range, so copy/pasting words to a second voice means you have to do some cleanup on the wordbuilder programming to get that voice sounding right.
> 
> ...



That's actually pretty good. Quite honestly, I find the pre-recorded vocal phrases useful as well. The piece I wrote for the library was based on a reference track--so I actually wasn't writing to the library--and the phrases really lifted the whole thing IMO. 

It's also easy to bounce the pre-recorded phrases to audio and time stretching them in flex mode (if you're in LPX). I do that with quite a few libraries these days with good results as long as it's not too much of a stretch.


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## Rob (Feb 2, 2020)

Alfeus Aditya said:


> I just made a demo video and recorded it in real time using this library as backing singers (not lead singers).
> No talk. Sorry if it's a little boring, my voice is very annoying when trying to speak english :(



nice voice you have... as for the library, I hear potential in it, too bad for the intonation issues... but I like the voices' timbre


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## ChazC (Feb 2, 2020)

I'm still on the fence with this library TBH. I keep reminding myself of Bob DeNiro's line in Ronin - when there is doubt there is no doubt - but I can't help feeling that I think this library does have potential. I wish I wasn't such a sucker for vocal libs...  I've still got another week or so to decide! I'd like to see how it fares under some pop/rock stuff.


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## X-Bassist (Feb 7, 2020)

pmcrockett said:


> So I've spent a bit of time playing with the library. Overall, it behaves the same way as the other wordbuilder libraries, with mostly the same idiosyncrasies. I think it's going to be harder to get really good results with this than with Hollywood Choirs because of the small ensemble size and the fact that the styles it's appropriate for aren't necessarily reverb heavy. Both of these things make masking problems more difficult.
> 
> Like Hollywood Choirs, the sound and level of the phonemes aren't 100% consistent across the full range, so copy/pasting words to a second voice means you have to do some cleanup on the wordbuilder programming to get that voice sounding right.
> 
> ...


The best version of this I’ve heard so far. Still having a hard time hearing v’s like in “who saved a wrech like me”, but the rest is fairly clear. I gave up on Symphonic Choirs wordbuilder a while back because the resulting words were too big and sloppy to be heard as clear words. Was hoping this would be better but it still lacks clarity with the consonants.

Seems like consonants get lost in all East West word builders, in most videos they seem all over the place. Odd that they don’t have a page that just sets levels for every consonant and vowel. On many of these demos I only hear vowels and usually can’t hear the consonants.

Then in addition the transitions between phenomes has to be worked out better. Not sure if it needs better crossfading (more curve choices) or like legato, recordings of transitions. But every ambient or level change is noticable and it becomes a bunch of tiny samples to the ear instead of a flowing sequence. Reverb and compression can help of course, but to get it to feel like flowing lines is the key. And right now it takes a lot of work to get a fairly simple phrase to not sound bad on it’s own.

Is there a way to share files or phrases you have worked on? That would be a great way to build a bigger library for everyone as starting points for phrases.


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## ChazC (Feb 7, 2020)

X-Bassist said:


> Seems like consonants get lost in all East West word builders, in most videos they seem all over the place. Odd that they don’t have a page that just sets levels for every consonant and vowel. On many of these demos I only hear vowels and usually can’t hear the consonants.



Remember that this is a backing vocal library though - it's not nearly as much of a concern. That was my problem with the official demo & walkthrough. They said it's supposed to be used behind a lead vocal & in a full mix yet failed to provide any examples of it used in that context! I've always approached Wordbuilder as more of a suggestion at lyrics rather than a representation. I usually over emphasis the consonants in any case as yes, they are really low.

I eventually caved & bought it (I'm a sucker for vocal libraries!). Not sure exactly when I'll get a chance to look at it properly but when I do I'll post up again. I'm hoping to use it for pop/rock stuff so we'll see. I messed about with it for literally 5 minutes yesterday & the supplied Wordbuilder phrases are actually quite good - certainly workable with a bit of tweaking.


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## Chungus (Feb 7, 2020)

X-Bassist said:


> Seems like consonants get lost in all East West word builders, in most videos they seem all over the place. Odd that they don’t have a page that just sets levels for every consonant and vowel. On many of these demos I only hear vowels and usually can’t hear the consonants.
> 
> Then in addition the transitions between phenomes has to be worked out better. Not sure if it needs better crossfading (more curve choices) or like legato, recordings of transitions. But every ambient or level change is noticable and it becomes a bunch of tiny samples to the ear instead of a flowing sequence. Reverb and compression can help of course, but to get it to feel like flowing lines is the key. And right now it takes a lot of work to get a fairly simple phrase to not sound bad on it’s own.
> 
> Is there a way to share files or phrases you have worked on? That would be a great way to build a bigger library for everyone as starting points for phrases.


They do have a page to set these levels. If you look to the "voice" window and click on the "..." next to the import/export buttons, the window to set the volume for non-pitched/pitched consonants and vowels are there.

What I do (Also using Symphonic Choirs, I don't have HC or HBS) is lower the level of the vowels a little, and then edit consonant levels in the time editor when needed. I've found this gets them on the same level reasonably enough.

I'll fully agree the legato in wordbuilder needs to be improved, though.


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## pmcrockett (Feb 9, 2020)

X-Bassist said:


> Is there a way to share files or phrases you have worked on? That would be a great way to build a bigger library for everyone as starting points for phrases.


Yes, you can export phrases. The phrases I used in the Hollywood Choirs piece I posted here are attached to that post if anyone wants to dissect them. I find that that how good anything actually sounds depends a lot on tweaking it to fit the context it's used in, though, so pre-built words will only ever get you so far.


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## GtrString (Nov 27, 2020)

I wonder if there are more experiences from users, now that it has been out for a while?
Any real world mixes I can hear it in?

It's currently at sale at Audiodeluxe for about 135$, which is about one session's worth, so quite reasonable.

I do have Voices of Soul, which I quite like, but I could use a word builder in some use cases.


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## Mark Schmieder (Nov 27, 2020)

As for the word builder feature, how different is it from the one in the old EWQL choir library that no longer works on macOS? I'm just wondering how much tech is shared, or not, between these choir and voice libraries.


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## Fleer (Sep 25, 2021)

Finally got it in and I’m very pleased. Perfect for backing vocals. Already knew CC White was in Voices of Soul but the two other singers also did Pink Floyd. Amazing blend of voices and the included Word Builder (similar to Hollywood Choirs) is a substantial step up from the one in Symphonic Choirs. Kudos, EastWest.


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## labornvain (Sep 25, 2021)

Alfeus Aditya said:


> I only tested it briefly and I agreed, the sound was out of tune. this is an example that I can give (the original and tuned).
> In my opinion, this sample library is good but is not intended to stand alone, as the name suggests.


The original sounds better.


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