# Advice on Univercity - Should I go for music?



## LML88 (Jan 3, 2017)

Hi everyone.

I'm loving being a part of this forum and the wealth of knowledge is fantastic.
I know we have a lot of people currently working in the industry as composers, and with that being my goal I'm looking for some advice if I may.

I'm now 20 years old, and have been learning classical music all since I was seven (when I started playing the piano).
Then going on to study music technology at college with the ambitions of producing and writing music, I refined my ambitions to wishing to be a composer; to write orchestral music for films, tv, games, trailers, etc.
Music It's my absolute Passion, as it is for most of you I'd imagine; and for that to be a job would be a dream.

I'm soon to be going to Univercity this coming September, and have the opertunity to study music to degree level.
I also have the opportunity at that same Univercity to study sports science, another subject I'm very interested in.

I'm finding the decision immensely difficult.
On one hand, music is the thing I love to do more than anything, but from what I keep reading ( and please correct me if I'm wrong) A traditional University education isn't particularly the way to go for it.
I spoke to a couple of producers in London I met at a bar. One was an engineer, and the other a producer.
Between them they'd been heavily involved in many very popular albums, and their advice to me was to not go to Univercity for music because it wouldn't further my career.
They said I could learn much of what I needed to know on the internet and through online courses these days, and seemed to suggest it would be somewhat a waste of time.
Many articles and other people I've seen have said much of the same, and with large amount of information with master classes and such, it's difficult to know what to do.
How accurate their analysis was I'm not sure, and that is I suppose what I'm trying to establish.

As I said, the one other thing I'm very interested in (albeit not anywhere near as passionate about) is sports science.
Quite the opposite spectrum I know, there's a clear career path with it unlike with my music.
I was thinking I could be doing that and continue to do my music and try to make my way.
I apologise if that sounds ridiculous and naive, but again, I suppose that's why I'm asking.
I'm not worldly wise as many of you will be, and so it's very difficult to know what the hell to do. 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
There's an incredibly rich wealth of knowledge on this forum and I'd love to know what people would advise for someone wanting to make a living doing this.

Thanks a lot!


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## C.R. Rivera (Jan 3, 2017)

May I offer one suggestion here: if you are able to do so, why not pursue a dual-degree? If you love both, a little bit more time now may prove rewarding in more ways than you might consider and a well rounded background may also give you a second or third look in the future. You might also see what kinds of grants, scholarships, and funding available to allow you to pursue your higher education goals.

Cheers and good luck

Carlos


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## Tysmall (Jan 3, 2017)

I'm in the same boat except I have no interest in paying the 14 grand a year I already do to study music. I study computer science as it is immensely harder to self teach than music. Composing is my hobby, I also consider writing software algorithms a hobby. I learn so much that translates into both fields from both arts .. Whatever I end up making a living off of I will probably still do the other. My suggestion is if you are going to university, study something that can't be taught from youtube like music theory and especially production can. And you don't need a degree to pursue music .. you do need a degree to be a personal trainer (what I assume you go for as sports science).

There can be a million arguments made both ways. It is not financially reasonable to go to school for music unless you want to teach music (my opinion). There are so many ways to learn without school thanks to the internet.

I don't think you should ever go to university anymore unless you are doing something extremely specialized (science engineering or medical). I know so many people graduating with b.s. degrees my age right now that are taking awful jobs, because the fields are so washed with people who got psychology degrees just because they wanted to go to college.

I am really passionate about this issue. Ask yourself are you going to college just to go .. or are you going because you need to.

I reside in the U.S. by the way where tuition is stupid high and employment rate for graduates from non elite schools is abysmal (I have a friend who went to Yale to study philosophy and makes less than a mechanic I know). I'm sure it's different in other places and it may invalidate my advice and opinions, but I do ask you to consider what I am saying because I am seeing first hand what happens when people take 100k in student loans to study something that doesn't return.


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## mc_deli (Jan 4, 2017)

Were they telling you not to study music or not to study music production?
I had a terrible experience with a poor music production degree so I am bit biased here

It all depends on what is available and where you are. To generalise massively, in my experience, in the UK formal music studies do not correlate to success in music. In the Nordics, formal music studies do correlate. In the UK none of the successful bands or producers or composers I know have studied a music degree. In the Nordics every successful band, producer or composer I know has studied music to degree level (some exceptions but basically true in my world).

A high quality music degree at an actual university with facilities and great teachers is going to give you an advantage in the job market/marketplace. A poor college music technology degree at a Polytechnic is not going to give you an advantage in the market. If you go and study pro tools and mic techniques at a poly you are going to learn the same stuff that anyone can learn from books/online in their bedroom. Another big weakness of music tech courses tends to be they do not go into enough depth - there might not be the scope for real specialism. There are a lot of threads on the SOS forum about this subject. 

A big point is that, depending on where you are the networking aspect of attending a university degree may be just as important as the studies.

A minor addition is that, if you see a future as being a self employed composer, learning about entrepreneurship would be useful. Polytechnics might promise vocational education - and offer courses that cover the business side - and this should be a good thing - but my experience was that a bunch of introductory courses with overviews of rights management etc. was not nearly enough to count as "readying the student for the workplace". (Of course, overall, the music industry basically fails to mentor the next generation of entrepreneurs because it is so fragmented but that's another story).

Of course, poly music tech courses are easy to get into, university courses are much harder. If you already have expertise I suggest you focus on the areas you are best at and get even better. Find the university that aligns with your previous studies and go balls out to get there.

One last point. No one AFAIK cares if you have done a music tech course. Could you charge a higher studio rate because of it - no. Will it make anyone pay attention to your CV - no. Will it get you an assistant gig - no. However if you have a serious music degree from a well respected university (or another specialist degree like electronics, physics etc etc) then people pay attention, for starters, you can charge more if you teach your instrument, you get my point.

Excuse the rant. I got burned as you can tell.

If you are in the UK then the SOS forum is essential reading for you.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jan 4, 2017)

What do you hope to get out of it? Knowledge? Practice? A step forward in your career?

I'm currently doing 2 music degrees at different schools and I'd say that I already knew 90% of the material covered in music courses from my own research and private lessons when I was younger. Especially the music technology and theory related courses. Right now I'm finishing these degrees simply to have a degree and to take more computer science courses. It would be too much work to switch to a computer science major so I'm sticking with music and doing a computer science minor. If I were going into university now I would get a computer science degree as I'd learn far more than I'm learning now.

Having said all of that, I am interested in doing a sound recording masters at McGill. Perhaps it is only basic things which I already know but I'm hoping that it goes far more into detail and offers more practical experience in recording orchestras which isn't something I can do on my own. So it really depends on what you want and what you expect to get out of it.

Another thing to keep in mind is what sort of access you'll get to facilities and resources. I've probably accessed more books and scores online through my university library than the cost of tuition.


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## LML88 (Jan 4, 2017)

C.R. Rivera said:


> May I offer one suggestion here: if you are able to do so, why not pursue a dual-degree? If you love both, a little bit more time now may prove rewarding in more ways than you might consider and a well rounded background may also give you a second or third look in the future. You might also see what kinds of grants, scholarships, and funding available to allow you to pursue your higher education goals.
> 
> Cheers and good luck
> 
> Carlos



I'll certainly look into that, not sure how avalable it is.
Good advice, thank you


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## LML88 (Jan 4, 2017)

Tysmall said:


> I'm in the same boat except I have no interest in paying the 14 grand a year I already do to study music. I study computer science as it is immensely harder to self teach than music. Composing is my hobby, I also consider writing software algorithms a hobby. I learn so much that translates into both fields from both arts .. Whatever I end up making a living off of I will probably still do the other. My suggestion is if you are going to university, study something that can't be taught from youtube like music theory and especially production can. And you don't need a degree to pursue music .. you do need a degree to be a personal trainer (what I assume you go for as sports science).
> 
> There can be a million arguments made both ways. It is not financially reasonable to go to school for music unless you want to teach music (my opinion). There are so many ways to learn without school thanks to the internet.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the advice, that's certainly food for thought, and pertains to much of what I've been told in the past.
I certainly have some thinking to do.


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## LML88 (Jan 4, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> Were they telling you not to study music or not to study music production?
> I had a terrible experience with a poor music production degree so I am bit biased here
> 
> It all depends on what is available and where you are. To generalise massively, in my experience, in the UK formal music studies do not correlate to success in music. In the Nordics, formal music studies do correlate. In the UK none of the successful bands or producers or composers I know have studied a music degree. In the Nordics every successful band, producer or composer I know has studied music to degree level (some exceptions but basically true in my world).
> ...



I'm sorry to hear you got burned. They were telling me both could easily be a waste of time. The music production side more so obviously, with it being far easier to learn through the internet.
And yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
I actually did a college course several years ago for music tech and it was pretty much a waste of time I felt - I already knew the majority of the stuff they were teaching, and as you say it's far too broad.

If I was to go to Univercity to study music it would be the classical route.

When you say people would pay attention to that sort of degree? Who are you talking about if I may ask?
I'm still very new to the composers world. I've been learning classical music all my life, though how you'd go about it for an actual job is something I've researched but am still unsure about.
I do know though, that like you say, networking is very, very important, and I do need to learn the business of all of this for sure.

Thanks a lot.


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## LML88 (Jan 4, 2017)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> What do you hope to get out of it? Knowledge? Practice? A step forward in your career?
> 
> I'm currently doing 2 music degrees at different schools and I'd say that I already knew 90% of the material covered in music courses from my own research and private lessons when I was younger. Especially the music technology and theory related courses. Right now I'm finishing these degrees simply to have a degree and to take more computer science courses. It would be too much work to switch to a computer science major so I'm sticking with music and doing a computer science minor. If I were going into university now I would get a computer science degree as I'd learn far more than I'm learning now.
> 
> ...



I'd be looking for knowledge. I'm classically trained as a pianist, but I want to learn the ins and outs of actual composing.
I do also, on a side note, want to experience Univercity and get out of the town I'm in for a few years, meet some new, like minded people etc.

What you say makes a lot of sense, thank you.
It's interesting that you already knew a lot of it - that must be annoying.


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## tonaliszt (Jan 4, 2017)

I was in a similar situation as you, and got many informative responses from this thread I made: http://vi-control.net/community/threads/college-undergraduate-programs.52796/

I actually go back and look at those responses around once a month, as they help to keep me focused on the things that I need to learn. 

My thoughts:
If you truly need to be a musician and will be going to college next year, why would you not study music while you are there? 

You have two choices: 1) Study science in school and also study music on your own. 2) Study music in school and also study music (different techniques than what you learn in school, production, sound design) on your own. 

Clearly, the second option will make you a better musician. If you plan to become a musician, rather than an exercise physiologist and a music hobbyist, going to school for music will help you greatly. 

When are scoring your blockbuster feature film (hopefully), is it not more useful to know how to conduct, orchestrate, and harmonize than it is to know how the muscles of an athlete's leg work?

Personally, I have chosen to go all in with studying music, the career I wish to pursue, rather than split my efforts by spending time studying something intresting, but ultimately unrewarding.

Best of Luck. 
-Noah


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## Arbee (Jan 4, 2017)

This is such a personal decision it's tempting not to contribute at all to this thread. But I will anyway.

First, know why you're going to university and what career paths absolutely need a university degree. Music probably isn't one of them unless you plan to teach or lecture. The effort and expense of a university degree should contribute in real, tangible ways to your future career choices (and I don't mean just for the next few years).

With a classical piano background, much of what you need to know is already at your fingertips, even if you haven't looked at it that way.

University is great for networking, being among like-minded souls, learning how to research and think objectively, and is an unavoidable prerequisite for some career choices, but not just for knowledge. Intense curiosity, passion, Google and a variety of online resources can do that admirably.

Just my 2 cents (based on 3 careers - medical science, music as a sole source of income for 14 years, then business systems, and these days an enviable lifestyle mix of the last two).


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## AllanH (Jan 4, 2017)

I would suggest you look at the total earnings potential before choosing whether university/college is for you or not. While it’s probably true that the few geniuses in the industry would be excellent without formal training, I would posit that the majority of people who succeed have a background (college, apprentice, mentor, etc.) where they have learned the trade.

While I guess someone can learn everything necessary from YouTube, I just find that inefficient and likely to fail. I suggest you build a solid set of skills relevant to what you want to do (engineering, composition, playing instrument, etc.) and work very hard to get involved with a successful person or company upon graduation. I believe you have far better chance for long-term success when you come from a base of knowledge and training.

Allan

PS: I really hope that my physician didn’t graduate from YouTube University!


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## Arbee (Jan 4, 2017)

AllanH said:


> PS: I really hope that my physician didn’t graduate from YouTube University!


Thankfully YouTube physicians give themselves other titles 

Seriously though, that's where it gets tricky - university is essential for some things, optional for others...


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## AllanH (Jan 4, 2017)

Arbee said:


> ...
> Seriously though, that's where it gets tricky - university is essential for some things, optional for others...



That is the essential truth, I agree. This is why I think it's important to look at college/university as a way to broaden skill sets and improve market value. It's just incredibly hard to know when you're 20 what you want to do for the next 40 years and to be confident enough that you compete without formal training. Not to mention, if you can't compete; then what? 

Having a solid foundation is just (imo) a good starting point. FWIW - I'm not sure getting your typical college education in music qualifies as "a solid foundation".


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## rgames (Jan 4, 2017)

Here's one piece of advice I always give: if you're thinking about getting a degree in music, don't.

The only people who should get a degree in music are those who don't think about it. They're the people who never consider other options.

And no, you don't need a degree to be a successful musician/composer. Music is one of those endeavors best learned by doing. Look at the musicians/composers whom you most admire: what did they do? Odds are many (most?) of them never got a degree but did spend years performing and/or otherwise involved with performers (e.g. as an orchestrator or composer). As far as I know, John Williams has no music degree. 

Here's a better approach (and one taken by most of the musicians/composers I admire): just start working. When you leave high school, start gigging, keep a crappy day job and study as much as you can. Odds are that'll lead to more opportunities than a degree. In my opinion, the 25 year old with 6-7 years of gigging/orchestrating/composing experience is vastly more marketable than the one with a degree and no experience in the real music world.

If you get to age 22-23 and it's clearly not working out, then go get a degree in something other than music.

Here's the other piece of advice I give: DON'T GO IN TO DEBT FOR A MUSIC DEGREE.

rgames


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## Conor (Jan 4, 2017)

I have a Bachelor's and a Master's in Music Composition (Jazz Emphasis) from the University of Texas.

In hindsight, the degrees themselves are just about worthless. But the environment was great. I should have taken advantage of it WAY more than I did -- I could have written a lot more (& found students to read my work), played in more varied ensembles, learned to conduct, maybe taken a few lessons on different instruments, really dug into orchestration study and pestered all the professors with questions... I sort of coasted through most of it, to be honest, because I was a decent trumpet player with a good ear and the actual coursework was easy.

Have you considered majoring in sports science, and just hanging out in the music department the rest of the time?  (By that I mean playing in ensembles, auditing classes...) Then just pivot from there, once you decide for sure.


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## mc_deli (Jan 4, 2017)

Location is everything. Where I live higher ed is "free" and there is one amazing uni that anybody serious tries to get in. Those who don't make it go to the "other" place and continue applying.

Vastly different from country to country, particularly the cost.


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## ctsai89 (Jan 5, 2017)

don't go for music unless you know for sure that you're going to and will do somethign with it. 

School that have focuses on film scoring is far better than a university that's only going to talk about mozart and brahms/schubert/schoenberg/johnadams 24/7.

it's very important to stay relevant, just my opinion though.


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## Baron Greuner (Jan 5, 2017)

Go for the Sports Science. Lot more money in Sports because it's followed by everyone including huge amounts of morons and that's where the money is. Morons tend not to be so picky about stuff they don't understand. They don't really understand sport, but the main thing is, they think they do.
So Sports is very much a bottom up feeder as opposed to Music, which they don't understand, and is much more top down.

Music Colleges are really useful if you want to be a player in an orchestra or something like that. Or say, teaching or becoming a serious composer/orchestrator.

I had two choices when I left school. Go to the RCM or go to Sandhurst. I chose the former, but there would have been a lot more money in going to Sandhurst. And you get the chance to kill people too.


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## fritzmartinbass (Jan 5, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> don't go for music unless you know for sure that you're going to and will do somethign with it.
> 
> School that have focuses on film scoring is far better than a university that's only going to talk about mozart and brahms/schubert/schoenberg/johnadams 24/7.
> 
> it's very important to stay relevant, just my opinion though.



Funny! The school I got my degrees from would not have even accepted me with a comment like this. There are concepts you get in school that you just wont get online. IMO. As a composition student, you listen to so much music that you didn't even know existed. Believe it or not, there are many fantastic composers that don't think film scoring is the pinnacle of musical art.
To be fair, I am a music professor. But, I will say that you probably would not be well served to pursue a Music degree unless you live and breathe music and cannot fathom living without it. There are certainly easier ways to make money. Good music schools do focus on new music. Being musically "relevant" is quite subjective, unless your goal is composing strictly commercial music.


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## GtrString (Jan 5, 2017)

I work at an education dept. in the university, and have lots of conversations with students on how to find a career path that balances between their passions and is viable to get work. In my 20s, I myself took the route going for a degree in social science, in stead of pursuing a musical path. At 46 I can tell you that I have regretted that.

As I've grown older, I haven't really "matured" and become less interested in music, on the contrary. So now I struggle to find ways to study music as part of my other career. The thing about education is not just what you learn. Education is also very much about becoming. You become a person with a degree in music, and you develop relationships with like minded people ect, you relate to the values of the people you surround yourself with. It becomes a lifestyle, more than just dry subject matters. For me, the consequence has been that I'm a bit uneasy with what, or whom, I've become.

Education is also a way to lead (or sort) people in society into different careers, so when you come with a certain degree, you are also expected to act it. Those things considered, there's a heck of a difference between a degree in sports and one in music. If you go with one and act like the other, you may experience tension, just like an interval in and out of key. My collegues constantly confronts me with "why d'you want that?".

What I've noticed about age is also that you become less free. Of course, not neccesarily in a bad way, but later in life you'll get obligations with maybe a partner, children, house ect. This is all great, when you want it, but the obligations and attachments to these things is also a bit "sticky", meaning you can't easily shake those things off, and start a music career all of a sudden, if it means not making money for 3-5 years when you are starting out - because you still want the partner, the kids, the house and the car. I'm hard pressed for time for music, as well as budget for gear, despite my day day job, because expenses are high.

Getting a life in music is really a long time achievement, as it is in many careers, so during studies you can set yourself up, and get a platform of relationships, knowledge and time to continue the path. There is no better time to do that when you are young, and don't need a ton of bread money just to keep up appearences. I guess that's what used to be called "paying your dues". Even if I can find a musical path now, I lack the biography of having studied in music college, old musical class mates, and having paid my dues with finding gigs early in life ect.

As with any career, music as well as sports, you might be in a better position to pay your dues now, than later. If music doesn't work out well, like if you hate the study, you don't gain any friends and network during college, and you don't gig as much as you hoped - you can still change your mind, take a job and get a company to sponsor part of your education. Or you can expand your music intrests to teaching, marketing, a&r ect. There's a lot of 360 degree opportunities in music you can branch out with over time.

Anyway, just a few thoughts from a struggling creative person (like so many others). Because you are so young, I vote for music.

All the best to you!


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## JohnG (Jan 5, 2017)

fritzmartinbass said:


> Believe it or not, there are many fantastic composers that don't think film scoring is the pinnacle of musical art.



lols

definitely the funniest thing I have read on this site in a while.

And so true. Film music usually gets written in a feverish hurry, with "input" from all kinds of non-musical people, for an audience of non-musical people. It's rare for film music to be genuinely ground-breaking or innovative, compositionally. Typically, when it's described as either (that is, "ground-breaking" or "innovative") it's because it has imported some technique from elsewhere, like using pop-song recording techniques on orchestral material, or _avant-garde_ ideas from concert music.



GtrString said:


> The thing about education is not just what you learn. Education is also very much about becoming.



Beautiful post, GtrString. I agree with many of your thoughts -- education is an end in itself, not trade school. I am glad to have studied poetry and music in school, since those are what give life meaning to me. Not SUPER practical on the job search, admittedly.


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## musicalweather (Jan 6, 2017)

Lots of excellent answers here, but I'll throw my two cents in anyway.

I had a completely different career for the first decade of my life after college -- I taught college English. (By the way, not to be annoying, but here in the US, "university" is spelled with an s. ) I had a bachelor's and master's degree in English. Then I went back to a private university to study classical piano performance and electro-acoustic media. This was for a second Bachelor's degree. I did most of the program but did not finish the degree. I started running out of financial aid, which is limited for a second bachelor's degree.

Looking back at all that and the fact that I'm still paying student loans (and will be for about another 10 years), one could conclude that it didn't pay off. But I have no regrets about it. Being at this university, which has its own school of music, gave me a very solid background in music theory as well as invaluable exposure to other pianists, both classical and jazz. I loved being around so many great players. Some other benefits: it brought job opportunities which I'm sure I wouldn't have had, it helped me get started in film composing (this university has a renowned film school), and it let me get my feet wet in music technology, something I might not have done on my own. I do agree with those who say that much of the technology stuff (DAWs, Pro Tools) can be learned on your own, with help from on-line sources. Your money might be better spent just paying for the software/hardware rather than for tuition. I found the university was a bit behind the current trends in technology.

I've supplemented my studies from this university with composition and orchestration extension courses from another major university. That's been lots of fun and useful as well, and darned cheaper than the private university.

As to how well my music studies at a university help me find work, I'm much more uncertain. No one hiring me for a film scoring job has ever asked me about my education background. I do list it on my resume when I'm applying for academic jobs, such as tutoring or teaching. I also sometimes mention it when I know that someone I'm working with or for (such as a film director) also attended the same university, which is often the case here in southern California. It carries a little bit of clout.

So much to consider! Knowledge and experience are important, but these days there are so many alternate ways to obtain those things. If it's manageable in terms of your student workload and affordable in terms of tuition, I would try to go for both sports science and music. During your years of study, I would try to do as many student films, games, etc. as you possibly can. It gets harder to do work for free as you get older and have more responsibilities. Best of luck.


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## NoamL (Jan 6, 2017)

Music degrees are worthless (says the guy with two), you should think in terms of *what skills is this college's program promising to teach you?* Don't even for a moment consider going into debt to learn something a pro will teach you on Youtube for free.

Be prosecutorial. Ask the music department: do they teach DAWs - which ones? If they look like they don't understand what a DAW is, walk out. How many opportunities do you get to record pieces for your reel, and with what ensembles? None? Walk out. Look at the professors, how many of them have had even tangential contact with Hollywood, and how many have bounced from sinecure to sinecure writing concept music on public grants?

"Our program focuses on teaching music theory" - this means they read a book at you. You can teach yourself music theory. Easily. Look up the syllabus (usually Kostka's Tonal Harmony or similar text), buy everything on Amazon and save yourself thousands of dollars.

There are a lot of "film scoring" programs popping up that are nothing more than taking advantage of kids' ambitions, some of these "programs" have no faculty that have ever even worked in the real industry or scored a film!

The big three in the USA, that are actually established and have any connection to the industry, are USC, UCLA, and the postgrad SMPTV program at USC. Admission is highly competitive to all three. But there are ex-Hollywood faculty at plenty of other unis at well, for instance NYU and Columbia.

(EDIT: obviously a major oversight not mentioning Berklee! They're top tier too.)

Remember a university is just a building, you're going there to study with _*people*_. Do your detective work. If there is someone/someones at your prospective uni that has a long list of work you respect, it's worthwhile to study with that person.

To @JohnG 's point, yes I think this forum _generally_ underrates modern concert music, music theory and music literacy. However, going to a program that stresses these aspects (i.e. a conservatory) would, I reckon, be even more worthless than attending a film scoring program. The faculty will definitely make you listen to a lot of interesting 20th century music but they'll overexpose you to snooty concept-art garbage music and neglect to teach you the basics of 20th century tonality, jazz, songwriting, etc. These flaws are also evident in a whole lot of university programs. Here in the States the undergraduate music theory curriculum is still obsessed with spending weeks teaching serialism in both music theory and music history courses.

The bottom line is if you can teach yourself the skills you will be just as marketable as if you had the degree. Don't pay for the prestige cuz there is none.


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## C.R. Rivera (Jan 6, 2017)

musicalweather said:


> Lots of excellent answers here, but I'll throw my two cents in anyway.
> 
> I had a completely different career for the first decade of my life after college -- I taught college English. (By the way, not to be annoying, but here in the US, "university" is spelled with an s. ) I had a bachelor's and master's degree in English. Then I went back to a private university to study classical piano performance and electro-acoustic media. This was for a second Bachelor's degree. I did most of the program but did not finish the degree. I started running out of financial aid, which is limited for a second bachelor's degree.



If I might add, I too have followed a different drummer, got a BA in History, retired Navy but became interested in "noise" before then, got on the job training so to speak, got my PhD, taught history at university/college level over the last decades. And, to boot, I can do something that Victoria's Secrets models can't do: Eat and retain ......follow your bliss........


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## NoamL (Jan 6, 2017)

BTW notice I talked about skills, many programs (at least back when I was in Uni) try to market themselves as connections providers, like "We send you for two weeks to LA!" or "We connect our students with top composers seeking interns!" Simply disregard entirely all such claims. Instead look at the alumni, and see where they are 4 years or 6 years later. No one can doubt for instance that SMPTV and Berklee are pumping people into this industry. Meanwhile I've never met anyone from Columbia College Chicago out here in LA even though when I was applying to unis they aggressively marketed me with their "We take our students on a 2 week visit to LA and major composers' studio tour!" nonsense.


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## musicalweather (Jan 6, 2017)

NoamL said:


> You can teach yourself music theory. Easily. Look up the syllabus (usually Kostka's Tonal Harmony or similar text), buy everything on Amazon and save yourself thousands of dollars.


I could _never_ have taught myself music theory. But perhaps there are those with mathematical minds who can do so. Anyway, an alternative would be to do what you can on your own and hire a tutor to help you with the rest. That might be cheaper than paying for a class.


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## Arbee (Jan 6, 2017)

musicalweather said:


> I could _never_ have taught myself music theory. But perhaps there are those with mathematical minds who can do so. Anyway, an alternative would be to do what you can on your own and hire a tutor to help you with the rest. That might be cheaper than paying for a class.


Herein perhaps is the underlying principle. Decide *what* you need to know to feed your passion and your aspirations, then decide *how* it best suits you to get it. Education in whatever form should be the slave, not the master....


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## agarner32 (Jan 6, 2017)

NoamL said:


> Music degrees are worthless (says the guy with two), you should think in terms of *what skills is this college's program promising to teach you?* Don't even for a moment consider going into debt to learn something a pro will teach you on Youtube for free.


This has to be one of the most ludicrous statements I've seen on this forum. I am not even sure where to begin. Your music degrees may be worthless, but we didn't all have that experience. I have multiple degrees and I learned a tremendous amount from world class composers and musicians all working professionals. For some, a degree allows opportunities that you wouldn't have without one. I have a great full-time tenured college position that not only pays me very well, but also allows me to pursue a composing and performing career. This certainly doesn't make me special, but it I could not have the gig I have without music degrees. So it really depends on one's experience and what your goals are. To say music degrees are worthless is completely false.



NoamL said:


> "Our program focuses on teaching music theory" - this means they read a book at you. You can teach yourself music theory. Easily. Look up the syllabus (usually Kostka's Tonal Harmony or similar text), buy everything on Amazon and save yourself thousands of dollars.


Another false statement for many programs. I head an undergraduate theory program and I don't read a book to my students. We do have a text, but it's only as a reference. Much of what I teach is from experience (40+ years). Yes, it's possible to teach yourself theory, but I would say most either can't or don't. Hell, you can teach yourself anything but there is a benefit you get from experienced musicians. Books can't give you advice on compositions, can't spot errors in your writing or correct mistakes in basic skills. Books can't give you practical guidance along the way and I could go on.


NoamL said:


> Remember a university is just a building, you're going there to study with _*people*_. Do your detective work. If there is someone/someones at your prospective uni that has a long list of work you respect, it's worthwhile to study with that person.


Okay now you're contradicting yourself. You started out by saying music degrees are worthless.


NoamL said:


> The bottom line is if you can teach yourself the skills you will be just as marketable as if you had the degree. Don't pay for the prestige cuz there is none.


Well now that depends. Some view having a degree from USC prestigious. Does it guarantee a gig? No. But it can open doors for some people.


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## NoamL (Jan 6, 2017)

Quoting OP



LML88 said:


> I know we have a lot of people currently working in the industry as composers, and with that being my goal



he's not looking to become an educator.


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## agarner32 (Jan 6, 2017)

I understand, but to make a statement general statement like that is not true. And furthermore, people's career goals change so later on a degree can be very helpful. I had no idea I'd end up teaching, but when I decided on that path the degree was mandatory.

Sorry if I took the post out of context.


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## Rodney Money (Jan 6, 2017)

Here's what my composition degree required from my freshman year to my senior year:

Requirements for each semester: 


Complete 4 compositions.
Have 2 public performances from 2 different works.
Keep a contemporary listening log with a minimum of 10 compositions not previously heard.
30 minute private lesson once a week with the professor.
Attend composition seminar for an hour every Friday which gives you the chance to work with other student composers and talk with professional composers.
For your senior year, you must organize a complete hour long senior recital featuring a selection of your compositions.


Works to compose in this order from freshman year to senior year:


Compose a hymn for SATB with proper voice leading and chord progressions.
Compose a solo piano work and be able to explain how your work has a beginning, middle, and end.
Compose a work using one of the church modes (Instrumentation that I chose: TTBB and Strings.)
Compose a work for solo instrument using set-theory (Flugelhorn.)
Compose a song for solo voice and accompaniment. Make sure the words are from a poem that is public domain (Soprano, Piano, and Cello. Words that I used were William Blake’s “The Garden of Love.”)
Compose a song for solo voice and small ensemble. Make sure the words are from a poem that is public domain (Tenor, Celesta, Vibraphone, Marimba 1, Marimba 2, and cello. Words that I used were Paul Laurence Dunbar’s “We Wear the Mask.”)
 Compose a work using a twelve-tone technique (3 trumpets.)
Compose a work for a small ensemble of percussionists using a duration series of rhythmic patterns (3 percussionists and a duration series of 4, 1, 2, and 3.)
Compose a work for small ensemble using set-theory (Violin, Clarinet, Bassoon, Tuba, Congas, and Claves.)
Compose a work for large percussion ensemble.
Compose a groove piece for large percussion ensemble.
Compose a work using an original contemporary technique (Violin and Cello using fully diminished 7ths as my original technique that I came up with.)
Compose a work for full band.
Composer or arrange a work for marching band.
Compose a work which the harmony modulates every measure (Harpsichord.)
Compose a work with your own synthetic scale (Piano.)
Compose a work for full orchestra.
Compose a work for large brass ensemble.
Compose a work for programmed music that tells a story (Strings, Piano, and Gong.)
Compose a work for choir using a foreign language (SSAATB using Spanish.)
Compose a work for electronic music.
Compose an exotic work (String Quartet using Celtic style.)
Compose a work for found objects.
Compose the score for a movie scene that is public domain.
Compose a large scaled work longer than 30 minutes (Requiem for Orchestra, Organ, Piano, and SATB.)


If anyone has any questions I will be more than happy to answer. I know many people are now against formal training in music composition, but college gave me many opportunities to hear my music performed live, form professional relationships with musicians, organize concerts working with musicians and studio producers, meet professional composers and publishers, and a chance for my music to grow and mature.


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## jononotbono (Jan 6, 2017)

I've never once cared for the piece of paper at the end. Ever. I only care about what I learn. I'm now in a second year of a Masters degree and I've learnt so much already. I'm planning on another 3 years of study with the last two being in Cinematic Orchestration. I know nothing (consciously) about Orchestration so I reckon I am going to learn so much. Or lose all my hair stressing out. Learning things completely out of the comfort zone is, in my opinion, the only way to learn at a rate of knots. A mentor, tutor, Degree courses, etc can help with this (completely depends) instead of plateauing for years and years doing the same thing over and over. With occasional bits of knowledge you may or may not pick up by yourself. That's dependant on the individual I guess. But what do I know? Definitely feels like I know less the more I learn. And even more so when I realise I am completely out of my depth and surrounded by people that are insanely better than me (including many musical filthbags from VI Control that are not or have not studied formally). Just makes me work harder. You absolutely don't have to go to University to study music to be a brilliant Musician and/Or Composer. But there can be massive benefits. Guess it depends on the Course, the tutors, and I think most importantly, your attitude.

One of the most enjoyable and beneficial things I've experienced whilst studying my current MA is by being around like minded people (many of whom I'm studying with go out of their way to teach me stuff like Music Theory outside of my MA - generous friends with mountains of patience because I find Music Theory rather difficult to understand and although I'm getting better slowly, If I was studying Music Theory by myself I would probably be still be wondering WTF any of it means and no doubt teach myself all sorts of weirdly wrong stuff) and actually meeting some wicked people that actually work in the business. Which has also led to meeting a few people that have nothing to do with my studies offering me a little work so far. In the past year I have been given my first opportunities to pitch for a few national UK TV adverts, played guitar for a feature film being released later this year and recently pitched for my first Video Game. I don't think any of these opportunities would have ever come about if I just studied from You Tube, the forums and tutorials from the usual sites.

I decided to go back into music Education after I left the Army years ago to start learning musical things I've never even tried before. Just the challenge of trying something radically different from playing in bands is so exciting for me. Oh, and I love film, TV and Games. So there's always that! It's "kind of" important to absolutely love what you want to do till the rest of time.  Even whilst I was in the Army, I used to volunteer to sit watching my ex platoon's washing in the camp launderettes so a) none of our Socks would get stolen (socks are a serious commodity in Northern Ireland) by thieving angry Paratroopers and b) the real reason - So I could plug my headphones into a shitty Boss Multi FX Pedal and practise Electric Guitar for 10+ hours every night when not out on Riot duty being firebombed by 14 yr olds. Every spare opportunity, still to this day is all about the music. Never about what I could be earning in another job. Or what else I could be studying. There's way too much stuff to learn in music and not enough time in this one life to be wasting it on anything else!

If I wasn't studying an MA I would still be doing what I do every day and that's music. I work 3 jobs, all building work type stuff etc, each one part-time which brings in enough money to live and I hate it. But I'd rather dig holes and work knee deep in filth to be able to afford to get anywhere in music than settle for the shackles of a well paid job that inevitably traps me becoming a slave to a decent wage in a job I truly despise (office work etc etc anything but music actually). And then inevitably children come along (I don't have any kids) and you truly become a slave to that wage in that despicable job just because you have to support them and their privileged lives as they become accustomed to receiving iPads at Christmas. When they're 2 yrs old! haha! Sorry, that was a little negative. When you have nothing else to lose and there is no plan B, only plan A - MUSIC - decisions to study music aren't decisions. Just do it. Formally or not. The pressure of uncertainty is good for the writing and personal drive. Pain poises the Pen and all that! At least you can die saying you gave it your all. Risky business huh? Oh, and be lucky and find an understanding partner. It really does help! Especially when a new shiny Spitfire library gets released!  I'll stop rambling my personal opinions now. I wouldn't listen to me if I was you. I'm reckless.


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## ctsai89 (Jan 6, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> Here's what my composition degree required from my freshman year to my senior year:
> 
> Requirements for each semester:
> 
> ...



quite a great program. which school was that? and did you tell the brass players to not cuivre at all when you wrote for large brass ensemble?


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## agarner32 (Jan 6, 2017)

What Jono said.


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## fritzmartinbass (Jan 7, 2017)

NoamL said:


> BTW notice I talked about skills, many programs (at least back when I was in Uni) try to market themselves as connections providers, like "We send you for two weeks to LA!" or "We connect our students with top composers seeking interns!" Simply disregard entirely all such claims. Instead look at the alumni, and see where they are 4 years or 6 years later. No one can doubt for instance that SMPTV and Berklee are pumping people into this industry. Meanwhile I've never met anyone from Columbia College Chicago out here in LA even though when I was applying to unis they aggressively marketed me with their "We take our students on a 2 week visit to LA and major composers' studio tour!" nonsense.



Ya know, I have actually met a few good composers that didn't go to school in LA or Boston. I know this sounds crazy.


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## LML88 (Jan 7, 2017)

I'd first off like to say a huge thank you to all the wonderful, in depth responses I've received.
Thank you all for taking the time out of your day to write these for me; it's very much appreciated.

There have been a lot of conflicting opinions between you all.
Some say to catagorically avoid univercity, and others say it was the best thing that ever happened to them.

What I've learned from you all is that it's not so black and white.
The important stuff is in the details; the course it's self, prior knowledge, meeting new people and networking etc.

Much of the univercity degrees for music you can get here are very similar to this:

*BA (Hons)*
*First year*
In the first year, you will acquire core skills in creative aspects of music-making (performance, composition, technology) as well as studying music theory and history. During the later stages of the programme, you’ll have the opportunity to develop specialist skills in different areas of music.

Core modules


Music, Criticism and Culture
Music in Practice 1
Creative Music Skills 1
Music in Practice 2
Optional modules


Music, History and Society
Creative Music Skills 2
Free elective 
*Second year*
The second year is made up entirely of optional modules so you can specialise in performance, composition, technology and/or musicology.


The Materials of Composition
Electronic Composition
Audio-visual composition
Songwriting
Performance 1
Performance 2
Collaborative Arts Practice: Creative Enterprises
Collaborative Arts Practice: Working in Partnership
Music Technology Applications
Interactive Technologies
Game Audio
Acoustics and Studio Design
Orchestration and Arranging
Rock and Popular Musicology
New Music of the 20th and 21st Centuries
Film Music
Jazz Studies
Music in the Long 19th Century
Psychology of Music Performance
Acoustics and Studio Design
Free elective 
*Final year*
The third year is made up entirely of optional modules so you can specialise in performance, composition, technology and/or musicology.


Composing for Film
Composing for Spaces and Places
Advanced Performance 1
Advanced Performance 2
Session Musician Performance
Collaborative Arts Practice: The Arts as a Living
Studio Techniques and Production
Advanced Interactive Technologies
Live Sound
Global Pop
Music Industry Studies
Music and Critical Thinking
Shakespeare Music
Handel’s Dramatic Works
Psychology of Music and Emotion
Individual Project
Special Study 


As many of you have said yourselves, money had never much been a driving factor in any of this.
I'd like to be comfortable money wise, sure, but ultimately I just want to do something I love.
It's an incredibly difficult situation, because obviously, you just can't plan ahead or predict what the hell will happen; whether something is actually going to be the right choice for you or not, and there's so many variables as I've learned just reading your responses.

A common theme people keep talking about in this thread is asking yourself specifically what the course would be teaching you.
It's obviously not worth going into debt for something that will ultimately teach you nothing, because as a lot of you have said, the degree doesn't actually mean a lot unless you're going to be a teacher (it being far more about the people you meet, the contacts and what you actually learn while you're there).
And I can see there's a lot of value in that.
To be honest, I've always been alone in my passion fo music and haven't ever really been around like minded people.
The idea of "who you know" being an invaluable ideology is also something I definitely recognise.

Thanks again!


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## fritzmartinbass (Jan 7, 2017)

LML88 said:


> What I've learned from you all is that it's not so black and white


 + infinity


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## Zhao Shen (Jan 7, 2017)

It's a hard decision to make, and there aren't any "right" answers. There's a lot of valuable insight to be gained from the replies here, but in the end you'll need to decide for yourself, because you're the one that knows the most about your own situation.

I'm currently working toward my degree in computer science. I used to be conflicted about my path in CS versus music but I love both pursuits, and in the end I decided that a focus on computer science would be the best assurance of a stable income upon graduation.

I guess what I'd recommend most is going with what you enjoy. OK, it sounds sappy, cliche, and disgustingly unoriginal, but it's true. If I didn't enjoy CS, I would be feeling an incredible amount of regret currently. Though also keep in mind that not going to school for music does not mean you will stop learning about music. Formal education is valuable but not irreplaceable, save for the networking you will do at your university.


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## LML88 (Jan 7, 2017)

Zhao Shen said:


> It's a hard decision to make, and there aren't any "right" answers. There's a lot of valuable insight to be gained from the replies here, but in the end you'll need to decide for yourself, because you're the one that knows the most about your own situation.
> 
> I'm currently working toward my degree in computer science. I used to be conflicted about my path in CS versus music but I love both pursuits, and in the end I decided that a focus on computer science would be the best assurance of a stable income upon graduation.
> 
> I guess what I'd recommend most is going with what you enjoy. OK, it sounds sappy, cliche, and disgustingly unoriginal, but it's true. If I didn't enjoy CS, I would be feeling an incredible amount of regret currently. Though also keep in mind that not going to school for music does not mean you will stop learning about music. Formal education is valuable but not irreplaceable, save for the networking you will do at your university.




Your situation was very similar to mine, then.
Exercise science and music or obviously pretty opposite ends of the spectrum as your choices were, but I do actually love both.
health and fitness has been something I've been actively involved in for quite a long time, and I find the science of it, particularly on the nutrition side of things very interesting.
There's no way I'd be bored I don't think if I picked the exercise science course, and in terms of career path.

At the univercity im looking at you can essentially go straight onto PhD study if you wanted to, or if you didn't end up doing what you wanted to they said they always welcome past students back to train as lecturers.
I'm sure the exercise science route would be the safer option purely based on financial stability.

However, music is my ultimate passion. And as I said, my dream job would be to be a composer - that's definitely where my heart is.

And no, I suppose it's not irreplaceable from an education stand point.
As you said though, how I'd make a name for myself and start meeting people otherwise I have no clue yet!
Univercity puts you in a place with a ton of like minded people as we've discussed.


When I did a rather pointless two year music production course in 2013, perhaps the only great thing I remember was what one of the tutors told me.
It was after playing around with his spitfire library. (he'd scored a few films in the 90s by a well known director who's name escapes me)
He told me I was really good, and I had a great ear for it.
I told him I didn't see how it would amount to anything, and started rallying off a load of excuses as to why it wouldn't happen and he interrupted me, looked me in the eye and said "you have what it takes".

That probably sounds like a totally cliche load of rubbish, but it did always stick with me.
Just that confidence that someone had in me was a great feeling and I haven't forgotten it.
It was not long after I really realised that I was actually good at something, and maybe I could actually do what I wanted to do.

It's just such a difficult decision! 
If I did end up picking the sports science, my persuit towards music certainly wouldn't be lost.
It's just to what degree I'd be missing out if I didn't do a music course.
Something you've all given excellent answers on, it's just assimilating the information, and then deciding for myself. 

Thanks


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## Rodney Money (Jan 7, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> quite a great program. which school was that? and did you tell the brass players to not cuivre at all when you wrote for large brass ensemble?


Appalachian State University in Boone, North Carolina, USA. I've always felt that the "perfect" blend for a "complete composer experience" would be Appalachian + UCLA's media composer curriculum.


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## ctsai89 (Jan 7, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> Appalachian State University in Boone, North Carolina, USA. I've always felt that the "perfect" blend for a "complete composer experience" would be Appalachian + UCLA's media composer curriculum.



well i graduated with B.A. at UCLA's music school. It seemed quite under-funded though, the program wasn't as concise as you have listed for ASU. And Paul Chihara isn't even teaching there anymore. lol maybe i should consider ASU in boone for grad? lol


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## Rodney Money (Jan 7, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> well i graduated with B.A. at UCLA's music school. It seemed quite under-funded though, the program wasn't as concise as you have listed for ASU. And Paul Chihara isn't even teaching there anymore. lol maybe i should consider ASU in boone for grad? lol


Was this your program at UCLA? https://entertainment.uclaextension.edu/certificates/film-scoring/


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## ctsai89 (Jan 7, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> Was this your program at UCLA? https://entertainment.uclaextension.edu/certificates/film-scoring/



LOL nope. I had gone for the traditional composition bachelor's of arts program. The extension doesn't offer a degree, only certificate. I took a class there though, it's not bad although the competition is a lot less fierce than the one i had many years ago at the actual university.

the extension program isn't under-funded at all. You get what you pay for, you'll have your pieces scored to films and recorded.


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## Rodney Money (Jan 7, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> LOL nope. I had gone for the traditional composition bachelor's of arts program. The extension doesn't offer a degree, only certificate. I took a class there though, it's not bad although the competition is a lot less fierce than the one i had many years ago at the actual university.
> 
> the extension program isn't under-funded at all. You get what you pay for, you'll have your pieces scored to films and recorded.


Yep, that's what I'm talking about. The mixture of my Appalachian experience where I literally had professionals, soloists, chamber, and large ensembles at my fingertips with the media extension certificate of UCLA concentrating on composing for the entertainment industry.


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## ctsai89 (Jan 7, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> Yep, that's what I'm talking about. The mixture of my Appalachian experience where I literally had professionals, soloists, chamber, and large ensembles at my fingertips with the media extension certificate of UCLA concentrating on composing for the entertainment industry.



im going to take another class there this coming quarter, so if you're coming i'll see you in one of those classes hopefully.


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## Rodney Money (Jan 7, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> im going to take another class there this coming quarter, so if you're coming i'll see you in one of those classes hopefully.


I so wish, my friend, but I live in North Carolina, married, have a 3 year-old, full-time composer and private teacher, got a mortgage, finishing up a car payment this coming up October, then doubling up on my student loans knocking them out, but you might see one of my best friends there: Ben.


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## NoamL (Jan 7, 2017)

fritzmartinbass said:


> Ya know, I have actually met a few good composers that didn't go to school in LA or Boston. I know this sounds crazy.



I hope so! As I didn't go to any of the schools I mentioned.  I went to Whitman College and then NYU.

BTW I totally understand OP's predicament as I was in the same place back then. Part of me wanted to do music and the other to be an ethologist (animal behavior scientist). I picked a school that had reasonably strong programs in both fields and did a double major.

So maybe that's the best choice for OP. Find someplace with a strong general music program (not necessarily film scoring) and sports science program. Then start out on a major in each and defer your decision until a year or two later.

Being able to record your music with great musicians is always a plus. There are lots of schools in the middle of America with very strong concert orchestra, concert band and marching band programs. You don't necessarily have to go through your degree program to get concerts and recording opportunities either - just approach the musicians directly.


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## pkm (Jan 7, 2017)

I don't think I've ever even seen my own diploma from Berklee. The paper is meaningless. Nobody has ever asked to see it. My most successful friends from Berklee didn't graduate. But the people I met there changed my life, professionally and personally. The knowledge I learned there put me in a great position to start from the bottom with a fantastic foundation on which to build a career.

You will get out of it what you put in. I put in a lot and got out a lot. I have friends who did not put much in and did not get much out.


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## JohnG (Jan 7, 2017)

jononotbono said:


> iPads at Christmas. When they're 2 yrs old!



Only in the poorer districts. At 2 years in Los Angeles, they get Sony Virtual Reality Headsets.


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## chimuelo (Jan 7, 2017)

pkm said:


> The paper is meaningless. Nobody has ever asked to see it. My most successful friends from Berklee didn't graduate. But the people I met there changed my life, professionally and personally. The knowledge I learned there put me in a great position to start from the bottom with a fantastic foundation on which to build a career.



Exactly what is still happening to me, and I only went one year.
I still benefit by friends from Film Class that work in NYCs under rated community.
Patent holders of the audio community throw me treats.
Recording artists, even had Pele as a Soccer coach, and Tadashi Yamashita as trainer.

It only took a year to know what I wanted to do.
Wouldn't trade it for all the Tea In China.

Instead of Gender Awareness though I got to fail Shaekspere.
Girls wore Bikinis to class there, I can't imagine what goes on there now.
No way you can get into thees and thous when you're being sexually tormented.


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## bbunker (Jan 8, 2017)

This thread kind of went exactly like I would have guessed. I do have a few suggestions for the OP, though:

1. Get syllabi. (Syllabuses if you don't want to feel like a complete ponce.) Everything that the department offers that appeals to you, go in and ask for a syllabus. From personal experience, when you're looking at what a course offers, you're imagining what YOU want the course to be, so that if you're taking a film music course you might be imagining enlightening discussions on the details of John Williams' triadic planning techniques (which could happen) but you might end up in a room full of grumpy violinists who'd rather be practicing Tchaikovsky watching the opening sequence to Gladiator. (Which also could happen.) Look over the syllabus and think about what the class will actually have time to cover, and if you're happy with what time and energy they give to different things. You may find that Week 7 of your Film Course is "Film Music of the 70's," giving them enough time to play the first 3 measures of Jaws and Star Wars, while they devote 3 weeks to Brian Ferneyhough in your 20th Century Music class. Before you sign up for anything, think about what sort of experience you'd be happy with and what you wouldn't, and what your expectation is. Talk to anyone and everyone at the school about your expectations!

2. Talk to your (would-be) professors. Especially at a BA/BM level, you're going to find professors who want to 'shape' your musical identity. Which is kind of the point of going to study - ideally they'll show you people who influenced the people you're into, and you'll come out with a breadth of knowledge that would take decades of self-study. Yay for the canon! Except that normally isn't 'exactly' how it works. You're going to get the breadth that they want to give you, but that desire to show you the wide world of music that you may not have experienced might end up being stifling - ideally you should be shown how to make the art that you want to make, as well as you can possibly make it, but you'll find some educators who think that they're being helpful is to tell you that if you 'think' that you like X, that what you 'really' want to write is Y. The only way to really suss that out is to sit down with anyone who is going to be formative in your education and tell them what excites you; if they're excited to help you reach that and to excite you about even more, then that's great. If they're excited to get you back on the 'right path,' (or anything vaguely similar) then you're probably going to be sidling disgruntledly up to the forum in 20 years talking about what a waste music school is.

Not exactly mind-blowing revelations. Basically - before you sign up for the next four years of your life, be clear up front about your expectations, and what's expected of you - earlier rather than later.


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## JohnG (Jan 8, 2017)

bbunker with good advice, as usual


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## agarner32 (Jan 8, 2017)

I would also add this. Pay attention to the level of students who are in the music department. I was a piano major so for schools I was interested in, I would walk around the practice rooms and listen. A program might look great, but if you hear music majors practicing the Clementi Sonatina in C or Mozart's Turkish March and playing them poorly, it might be a bad sign. I remember walking through the halls of Cal Arts listening to students working on Rach's 2nd piano concerto and Liszt Etudes and thought holy shit, this is a serious program. Talk to the students and try to sit in on a couple of classes to get a feel for what you're in for. I'd even listen to their ensembles at a rehearsal. The point is, the caliber of students in a program can reveal a lot.


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