# So you betrayed your principles to buy audio software, how did you feel? Any regrets?



## MartinH. (Jul 11, 2022)

Have you ever betrayed some of your strongly held principles to buy a plugin or library that you really wanted or needed? How did it make you feel in the short- and longterm? Are you glad you did it? Wish you did it sooner? Wish you could undo it? Please share your stories and keep it civil. Let's not make this a thread about which belief is right or wrong, I'm only interested in how you've dealt with for example being forced to get something on a subscription, even though you've sworn to avoid them forever, or got your first iLok secured product even though you despise these kinds of DRM schemes, or you bought a product from a company that seriously wronged you in the past and you were so sure you'd never ever buy another product from them.


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## carlc (Jul 11, 2022)

Not an audio plugin, but I had to do some video editing and was forced to get a subscription to Adobe Creative Cloud. They were one of the first to go the subscription route and I swore I would never sign up. I clung to older copies of their software and searched for alternatives. More recently there are viable alternatives emerging, even some free tools (not to go too deep here) but it is easier for some projects to have access to Creative Cloud, even if it’s just for one month at a time.


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## giwro (Jul 11, 2022)

I resisted getting the subscription to Adobe Audition - kept limping along my old copy until finally it would no longer install on a Mac due to OS changes. The combination of faster editing on a new machine and better features has made it worth the investment - I use it almost every day, both at my day job as a worship production assistant and by night as a sample producer. I still object to subscription software, but if it provides this kind of value, I don’t mind.


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## MartinH. (Jul 11, 2022)

Oof, I feel your pain on getting forced into the Adobe Cloud! I'm still resisting and only use CS6, but I know the day will come where a job forces my hand :(. I know there must be quite a lot of people on here who had to subscribe to CC against their will. How do you deal with the feeling of disenfranchisement and helplessness that comes from a giant corporation taking this much control over the tools of your trade? I mean, for better or worse you're trapped in that subscription forever if you want to keep doing that job and have to regularly access old projects. For me it's impossible to move away from Photoshop and Indesign. I have 10+ year old projects that I still need to update every now and then and no other tool has reached 100% feature parity with Adobe, and nothing less will be sufficient. I simply can't switch, and no one in the production chains I'm part of is going to switch.

I'm scared that one day Adobe will crank up the prices of their subscription by several hundreds of percents and really bleed dry every last one of the professionals that are in a situation where they can't simply switch to a competitor.

I'm curious of the philosophical discussion that is to be had on whether or not it's worth resisting these kinds of slow dystopian changes on all fronts. I have conflicting thoughts on what's the lesser evil for personal mental health long term: insisting on your principles and resisting big corps building increasingly obscene monopolies, or just giving up all hope and letting them beat you into submission... and subscription. There are a fair number of things that I do not buy or use because I reject some aspect of them or what they stand for. Sometimes I ask myself how life would be if I just... gave up. 

(I know there are glimmers of hope on the horizon, like Blender and Krita, but this is not a thread about hope, this is about dealing with things outside of your control)


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## carlc (Jul 11, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> Oof, I feel your pain on getting forced into the Adobe Cloud! I'm still resisting and only use CS6, but I know the day will come where a job forces my hand :(. I know there must be quite a lot of people on here who had to subscribe to CC against their will. How do you deal with the feeling of disenfranchisement and helplessness that comes from a giant corporation taking this much control over the tools of your trade?





MartinH. said:


> I'm curious of the philosophical discussion that is to be had on whether or not it's worth resisting these kinds of slow dystopian changes on all fronts. I have conflicting thoughts on what's the lesser evil for personal mental health long term: insisting on your principles and resisting big corps building increasingly obscene monopolies, or just giving up all hope and letting them beat you into submission... and subscription.


I struggled with this for a while, not wanting to "lose". Eventually, I realized that the amount of time I was sinking into finding non-subscription alternatives was worth more than I would have spent on the subscription. For example, I found open source builds for GIMP that were modified to look & act more like Photoshop. It took a lot of searching and learning new tools, and in some cases setting up a build environment to compile the source code. It became a huge distraction for me. Since then, I have learned to grumble a bit and then move on. 

It reminds me of the quote about having the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Also this:


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Jul 11, 2022)

No, but I refused to get a “smart”phone for a long time. But then in 2003, when my trusty old Nokia died…ah, well, resistance is futile etc.!


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## Double Helix (Jul 11, 2022)

" 'Principles'? My primitive mind cannot grasp these concepts"


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## Mornats (Jul 11, 2022)

I hate intrusive or restrictive DRM. So I had to let go of my principles to install iLok to get SoundToys and Eventide plugins. I won't ever ever touch VSL based on what I've heard about them selling insurance in case you lose your licence keys. Like, WTF, it's a licence, just reset it for me if I need it, don't make me pay more for it! I can understand why people pirate software when companies make it less convenient for paying customers to use.


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## TomislavEP (Jul 11, 2022)

Making ends meet with music, I'm always "on a budget" when buying equipment incl. software so I almost always postpone getting something that I want or even need until some substantial discount appears. The case where I betrayed this principle is my first purchase at SA, back in 2015.

Ever since I've heard of Albion, I've dreamed of getting it. However, it was quite pricey for me. Back then, SA still charged for their products only in Pound Sterling, one of the most expensive foreign currencies here in Croatia, and we also have a whopping VAT of 25%. (I won't mention the general standards here). So, I paid around 600€ for it in mid-2015. This is still probably the highest price I've paid for a single piece of software thus far. A few months after, SA suddenly decided to retire the library before releasing Albion One - something I never really expected to happen with such a praised product. I was so disappointed that I never upgraded to One, even when the upgrade price was at its lowest. Not to mention that you can nowadays get an essence of both legacy libraries for a fraction of the original price in the form of the Originals series. OK, I must also admit that I generally prefer the sound of Legacy and Loegria over One and Neo, despite the technical superiority of the latter.


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## carlc (Jul 11, 2022)

TomislavEP said:


> Making ends meet with music, I'm always "on a budget" when buying equipment incl. software so I almost always postpone getting something that I want or even need until some substantial discount appears. The case where I betrayed this principle is my first purchase at SA, back in 2015.
> 
> Ever since I've heard of Albion, I've dreamed of getting it. However, it was quite pricey for me. Back then, SA still charged for their products only in Pound Sterling, one of the most expensive foreign currencies here in Croatia, and we also have a whopping VAT of 25%. (I won't mention the general standards here). So, I paid around 600€ for it in mid-2015. This is still probably the highest price I've paid for a single piece of software thus far. A few months after, SA suddenly decided to retire the library before releasing Albion One - something I never really expected to happen with such a praised product. I was so disappointed that I never upgraded to One, even when the upgrade price was at its lowest. Not to mention that you can nowadays get an essence of both legacy libraries for a fraction of the original price in the form of the Originals series. OK, I must also admit that I generally prefer the sound of Legacy and Loegria over One and Neo, despite the technical superiority of the latter.


I feel your pain. I try to wait before jumping in on new products unless I have a very specific need. I bide my time by reading VI-C and living vicariously through the early adopters here. Every developer has a sweet spot for the best time to jump in on a product offering. For SA, I’ve found that to be as soon as it is offered at 50% for the first time. Too soon and you overpay. Too long after and it is in danger of being discontinued/replaced.


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## MartinH. (Jul 11, 2022)

Mornats said:


> I hate intrusive or restrictive DRM. So I had to let go of my principles to install iLok to get SoundToys and Eventide plugins.


How does it feel using those plugins now? Is it still nagging you that you caved in and started using iLok'ed plugins? Or was this like a dam breaking and now you don't care anymore when it comes to making new purchases? 

I still don't own a single iLok product but there are so many great plugins that I'm missing out on because of this. It's painful, but I know caving in would be painful too. I despise iLok and all that it stands for. Totally understand why some people would rather pirate iLok'ed plugins. But that would be going against another one of my principles.





Henrik B. Jensen said:


> No, but I refused to get a “smart”phone for a long time. But then in 2003, when my trusty old Nokia died…ah, well, resistance is futile etc.!


2003? Jesus... I _still _use a flip phone. I own a cheapo android smartphone as a QR code reader, but there is no simcard in it.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Jul 11, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> 2003? Jesus... I _still _use a flip phone. I own a cheapo android smartphone as a QR code reader, but there is no simcard in it.


Oh come on, be honest, _this_ is your phone:






😃😃😃

But seriously, I could get by with my old Nokia still. The screen of smartphones is way too small anyway IMO to be useful, i.e. for browsing.


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## José Herring (Jul 11, 2022)

I got CC as a "try" before you buy and now ended up using so much of it that "buying" would cost me thousands. So now I'm resigned to the fact that I may just end up buying over the next 2 years while limping along CC at $30 a month. It's like, not enough to be worrisome but just enough to be annoying. 
This was after I swore up and down I'd never get into subscriptions, but you know the tempation was too great.
So I ended up at that time getting 3 subscriptions. The one for Plugin Alliance was actually a good deal. I ended up using the voucher to cover a lot of what I was using. There's only really 2 more plugins I want to get but like Waves it's just easier to wait for sales and load them up when I have the cash. The other is Kilohearts subscription which I'll just probably end up buying the whole bundle with the vouchers they give soon.

CC is the worst type of subscription because it offers no incentive to buy anything. I'll drop it as soon as I can for sure. The others were actually really good deals and I may just get into PA again to get the voucher they give, have access to the plugins for a years and then use that voucher to get stuff on sale. It worked out really well.


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## Markrs (Jul 11, 2022)

Mornats said:


> I won't ever ever touch VSL based on what I've heard about them selling insurance in case you lose your licence keys. Like, WTF, it's a licence, just reset it for me if I need it, don't make me pay more for it!


I feel the same about VSL. There have been times where I have almost bought their software and this has always stopped me. The idea I have to pay insurance in case my ilok keys are stolen or locked to a PC motherboard is crazy to me, with the alternative paying for the licenses again at 50% off! 

I also hate IKMultimedia's policy of making you pay to download the files you have a license for after 6 months. Given the almost 100s GB of files you get, of things you will rarely use, it is really annoying having to store these files (apologies for off-topic moan).


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## Thundercat (Jul 11, 2022)

Mornats said:


> I hate intrusive or restrictive DRM. So I had to let go of my principles to install iLok to get SoundToys and Eventide plugins. I won't ever ever touch VSL based on what I've heard about them selling insurance in case you lose your licence keys. Like, WTF, it's a licence, just reset it for me if I need it, don't make me pay more for it! I can understand why people pirate software when companies make it less convenient for paying customers to use.


iLok charges $39/year for insurance. I think it's well worth it.

I get what you're saying though. It's like VSL is saying they think you are lying if you lost your eLicenser or something happened to it. Electronically you'd think they could ensure just one license was being used at a time. So yeah, seems like a money grab...


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## Mornats (Jul 11, 2022)

Thundercat said:


> iLok charges $39/year for insurance. I think it's well worth it.


I think it's outrageous that there has to be insurance for a software licence! I'm just a hobbyist so don't need to take licence keys anywhere (which i can see is an advantage of a physical iLok). So charging me for the chance I may lose a licence is no different to loot boxes in terms of ethics in my opinion.


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## Mornats (Jul 11, 2022)

Markrs said:


> I also hate IKMultimedia's policy of making you pay to download the files you have a license for after 6 months. Given the almost 100s GB of files you get, of things you will rarely use, it is really annoying having to store these files (apologies for off-topic moan).


I have lots of IKMultimedia stuff that I rarely use and will just abandon if I lose the install files. Speaking of IKM, I hate that I have to download and install all of their T-racks modules just so I can use the ones I own a licence for. Grr.


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## Thundercat (Jul 11, 2022)

Mornats said:


> I think it's outrageous that there has to be insurance for a software licence! I'm just a hobbyist so don't need to take licence keys anywhere (which i can see is an advantage of a physical iLok). So charging me for the chance I may lose a licence is no different to loot boxes in terms of ethics in my opinion.


Agreed. They’ve got us over a barrel and they provide the “solution” to the problem in such a way that benefits them. Instead of just using technology to serve their customers. A digital license cannot be “lost” anyway. It can be turned off or on at will.


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## Mornats (Jul 11, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> How does it feel using those plugins now? Is it still nagging you that you caved in and started using iLok'ed plugins? Or was this like a dam breaking and now you don't care anymore when it comes to making new purchases?


I'm fine using them, I barely think about iLok unless I'm installing a new one then I think, urgh, I hate this DRM stuff. 

I'm also against piracy myself (proudly 100% clean on software, music and video!) but I can see why people are driven to it with some DRM that's out there. I also hate having to sit through those FBI warnings about piracy on DVDs that you can't skip. For one, the pirates just delete that bit so it's only the paying customers who get it, second I'm in the UK and the FBI can f-off as they have no power here.


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## tressie5 (Jul 11, 2022)

This is more related to music business. I despise Facebook to the ends and depths of my soul; always have, always will. Being on there amongst that sea of nitwits is like standing naked on a super highway with an endless stream of vehicles zipping past you close enough to shear your skin off down to the bone.

I had to (or was encouraged to, let's say) rejoin because the label that released my new album does marketing on there and would like it terribly if I joined their private discussion group. I'm using a moniker, though, so at least there's a modicum of privacy.


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## carlc (Jul 11, 2022)

Mornats said:


> I have lots of IKMultimedia stuff that I rarely use and will just abandon if I lose the install files. Speaking of IKM, I hate that I have to download and install all of their T-racks modules just so I can use the ones I own a licence for. Grr.


Universal Audio does the same thing. It is one giant install, then I need to go and hide the plugins I don't own in both my DAW and in the UA console. I suppose updating is easy since I just download one file, but there are better ways to manage this. If I want to demo something, I can download it when I want to demo it. I don't need everything pre-installed.


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## Chris Schmidt (Jul 11, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> But then in 2003


Were those really smartphones, though?

Anyway, landline master race.


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## Quasar (Jul 11, 2022)

Mornats said:


> I think it's outrageous that there has to be insurance for a software licence! I'm just a hobbyist so don't need to take licence keys anywhere (which i can see is an advantage of a physical iLok). So charging me for the chance I may lose a licence is no different to loot boxes in terms of ethics in my opinion.


I think the insurance thing is appalling as well, and although I pay for what I use, it's clear to me that the criminality of software piracy is entirely trivial compared to the criminality of heavy-handed DRM. This doesn't make piracy okay, however, any more than burglary is okay just because it's not as bad as murder. But all life is compromise, and there is a part of me that just wants to buy the software I wish to use and not ruin my hobby by tripping on the CP issue too much. We live in the world that we have, not in the world that we wish for. This makes me a hypocrite and part of the problem IMHO.

I have never created an iLok account, and never will. But NI's Native Access remains a conundrum for me for two reasons:
1) I invested in the Kontakt platform before they went rogue with the Native Access software, depriving me, as a consumer, of the power of CP choice, because boycotting NA would only cost me everything I've already paid for. I am still insanely angry whenever I think about this.
2) It doesn't seem fair to boycott all 3rd-party Kontakt library developers solely because NI now uses draconian, control freak CP. Since Native Access, I have pretty much limited myself to "full" Kontakt libraries that don't pay fees to NI. But even this is a compromise because you still need NA for a legal version of Kontakt.

With so many developers dependent on the Kontakt platform, it's a classic case of monopolistic power, and absolute power corrupting absolutely. Under the current paradigm, I do not see an ethical solution that is fair for all involved.

The larger corporate-scale orchestral developers that are creating their own sample players are all, AFAIK, implementing server-dependent online activation, so I'm completely ignoring all of that. I need MORE variants of convoluted CP crapola about as much as I need to contract a case of dysentery.

So to answer MartinH's original question, I recently betrayed my ideals by purchasing Sonuscore's TOC2, which was on sale for half-price. It was only $230, I had the money, and the fact that it has a MIDI export function for all the engine-generated patterns is the feature that pushed me over the edge. And it's not Sonuscore I have a problem with. It's NI and Native Access, which is already on my system anyway...


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## Chris Schmidt (Jul 12, 2022)

Quasar said:


> it's clear to me that the criminality of software piracy is entirely trivial compared to the criminality of heavy-handed DRM.


"YoU WoulDn't DoWnlOaD A cAя Wo0d U?!"

Anyway, no — I have never betrayed my principles with buying audio software.


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## carlc (Jul 12, 2022)

Quasar said:


> …NI’s Native Access remains a conundrum for me for two reasons:
> 1) I invested in the Kontakt platform before they went rogue with the Native Access software, depriving me, as a consumer, of the power of CP choice, because boycotting NA would only cost me everything I've already paid for. I am still insanely angry whenever I think about this.
> 2) It doesn't seem fair to boycott all 3rd-party Kontakt library developers solely because NI now uses draconian, control freak CP. Since Native Access, I have pretty much limited myself to "full" Kontakt libraries that don't pay fees to NI. But even this is a compromise because you still need NA for a legal version of Kontakt.
> …


I’m late to the party and purchased Kontakt after Native Access was already introduced. I understand the general complaints around forcing developers to purchase expensive licenses for their libraries to run in Kontakt Player. Was that somehow tied to the introduction of Native Access? Truly a naive question on my part. I have never had issues with Native Access itself, and have been able to install other 3rd party libraries outside of Native Access.


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## Henu (Jul 12, 2022)

What's with the hate on Native Access? They already had Service Center before that which was clunky, buggy and annoyingly bad, and I think NA did a great job replacing that.


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## JimDiGritz (Jul 12, 2022)

Yeah, lot's in common here!!

I've had an Adobe CC sub since it launched, I used to use it daily for my previous design side hustle and despite trying GIMP, Inkscape and also buying Affinity Design & Photo nothing really comes close to PS & AI... I mean in Affinity Designer you can't even cut an object with a line... $50 down the drain! Luckily I qualified for the Edu pricing for CC and every time they try to move me up to $30 I threaten to cancel (sooooo close!!) and they let me remain on the $16 tier... that said I'm pretty sure I've paid $2,000 PLUS the previous DVD versions back in the day...

iLok also grinds my gears and I think long and hard before buying anything iLok. I have got a few libraries on machine locked iLok and frankly I'm dreading upgrading my PC since I'm 99% sure that will go about as smoothly as glass shards in chunky peanut butter...


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## JimDiGritz (Jul 12, 2022)

Also whilst hating proprietary download managers I present this without comment...






**and yes iLok is so hateful it managed to create 2 shortcuts of itself just to taunt me!!


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## Saxer (Jul 12, 2022)

Sometimes I buy unnecessary stuff and think "ouw" but I'm rather forgiving to myself. My money and my stupidity. Nobody is hurt. So why bother?


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## Crowe (Jul 12, 2022)

tressie5 said:


> This is more related to music business. I despise Facebook to the ends and depths of my soul; always have, always will. Being on there amongst that sea of nitwits is like standing naked on a super highway with an endless stream of vehicles zipping past you close enough to shear your skin off down to the bone.
> 
> I had to (or was encouraged to, let's say) rejoin because the label that released my new album does marketing on there and would like it terribly if I joined their private discussion group. I'm using a moniker, though, so at least there's a modicum of privacy.


How? I've tried registering using an alias but Facebook refuses to let me join without verification by ID. It's utterly ridiculous. As if I'd give that to them.


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## JimDiGritz (Jul 12, 2022)

Crowe said:


> How? I've tried registering using an alias but Facebook refuses to let me join without verification by ID. It's utterly ridiculous. As if I'd give that to them.


Odd - must be a new thing... I committed FaceBook suicide (yes, went through the official 'Forget Me' process) maybe 10 years ago, but have been forced to create a fake account a couple of years back to join certain groups.. didn't have to prove my ID...


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## MartinH. (Jul 13, 2022)

Crowe said:


> How? I've tried registering using an alias but Facebook refuses to let me join without verification by ID. It's utterly ridiculous. As if I'd give that to them.


How would you feel if for work or something else important you were forced to go through the verification and make an account under your real name?

I've read stories of people who registered their Oculus VR devices with fake accounts because they didn't want to make a proper facebook account, and got their accounts banned after a while, losing them access to their software purchases on the Oculus store too.


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## JimDiGritz (Jul 13, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> How would you feel if for work or something else important you were forced to go through the verification and make an account under your real name?
> 
> I've read stories of people who registered their Oculus VR devices with fake accounts because they didn't want to make a proper facebook account, and *got their accounts banned after a while, losing them access to their software purchases on the Oculus store too.*


We have a Bingo!!

Precisely why tethering social media to software and hardware is a bad idea...

Also, without wanting to wade into an emotional and complex subject, I'm surprised that no trans person has sued FaceBook/Meta for forcing them to use their Dead Name...


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## tressie5 (Jul 13, 2022)

It wasn't hard, really, because I'm a dummy. First, I tried to use a one-word name but Facebook wanted a surname. (I read that Facebook Indonesia is the only one that doesn't require it since most folks in Indonesia have one-word names). Since I didn't feel like going through the trouble with a VPN through Indonesia, I just used a fake name. They didn't ask for a copy of my driver's license anyway, so I'm good.


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## PeterN (Jul 13, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> I still don't own a single iLok product but there are so many great plugins that I'm missing out on because of this. It's painful, but I know caving in would be painful too. I despise iLok and all that it stands for. Totally understand why some people would rather pirate iLok'ed plugins. But that would be going against another one of my principles.


I guess Im missing some info, but what is the problem with iLok? My experience is, I register a product there, and that's it. A transfer after sale is smooth too. They have never spammed me or hijacked the template, destroyed all my tracks, with an extortion plan, *like Waves did*./does.


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## MartinH. (Jul 13, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> Also, without wanting to wade into an emotional and complex subject, I'm surprised that no trans person has sued FaceBook/Meta for forcing them to use their Dead Name...


Wow, about time someone does I'd say! 



tressie5 said:


> It wasn't hard, really, because I'm a dummy. First, I tried to use a one-word name but Facebook wanted a surname. (I read that Facebook Indonesia is the only one that doesn't require it since most folks in Indonesia have one-word names). Since I didn't feel like going through the trouble with a VPN through Indonesia, I just used a fake name. They didn't ask for a copy of my driver's license anyway, so I'm good.


They'll ask for identification once you trip their automated bot detection systems. You might get lucky and just never do that. But once you do, you may have to say goodbye to that account, so better don't get too attached.



PeterN said:


> I guess Im missing some info, but what is the problem with iLok? My experience is, I register a product there, online, and that's it. A transfer after sale is smooth too. They have never spammed me or hijacked the template, destroyed all my tracks, with an extortion plan, *like Waves did*./does.


Please, let's NOT get into this here! There are already hundreds of thread pages on why someone would want to reject iLok.


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## PeterN (Jul 13, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> Wow, about time someone does I'd say!
> 
> 
> They'll ask for identification once you trip their automated bot detection systems. You might get lucky and just never do that. But once you do, you may have to say goodbye to that account, so better don't get too attached.
> ...


Never heard it is so rejected. Well, I googled now, and most are lamenting how they need an Internet connection to verify their purchase every time they open the iLok plugin. This is bcs they have the license on a cloud, and not put it on their computer - basically they registered it wrong. But what do I know, maybe there are other ethical reasons? Maybe they test their plugins on animals first. Or use palm oil or something.

Anyway, since you started this thread and consider this out of topic, *its cool*, I kindly leave it here.


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## Crowe (Jul 13, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> How would you feel if for work or something else important you were forced to go through the verification and make an account under your real name?
> 
> I've read stories of people who registered their Oculus VR devices with fake accounts because they didn't want to make a proper facebook account, and got their accounts banned after a while, losing them access to their software purchases on the Oculus store too.


Forced? That's a one-way street onto litigation road. I've refused before and forcing your employees do so over here is a recipe for being brought before a judge.

I guess It helps that I have some pretty air-tight job security, the companies I work for need me more than I need them.

The Oculus thing? Oculus doesn't exist to me for that exact reason.

If it wasn't clear. I don't betray my principles. There's no point in having any otherwise.

EDIT: Oh no. I remember now. I once bought Mass Effect 1 for PS3 _digitally_. Because a physical copy didn't exist back then. I've been in therapy ever since.

Those two facts are not connected, per se.


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