# Künstlersozialkasse - a question for German colleges



## shomynik (May 24, 2018)

Hello all,

A quick one - are we as game music composers/producers eligible for entering/registering to this organisation - Künstlersozialkasse?

German system is making life hard for freelancers, but I came across this what basically makes you employed by the state and so you only pay half of your social contributions like any normal employed person. Seems to me a great thing... though I'am certenly missing a buch of details.

Thanks in advance,

Milos


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## AlexanderSchiborr (May 24, 2018)

shomynik said:


> Hello all,
> 
> A qucik one - are we as game music composers/producers eligible for entering/registering to this organisation - Künstlersozialkasse?
> 
> ...


Häh, why Germany makes it hard for freelancers? But to your question:
http://www.kuenstlersozialkasse.de/jahresmeldung-versicherte.html
Composers fall under the category M01 as stated there.


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## fretti (May 24, 2018)

"Künstler ist, wer Musik, darstellende oder bildende Kunst schafft oder lehrt" from that term I'd say yes (why are we actually still writing in english).
Though only as long as you actually are Freischaffend and not employed by a company (from your question I understand it you are)



shomynik said:


> German system is making life hard for freelancers,


Yep, thats our beloved german law system



shomynik said:


> but I came across this what basically makes you employed by the state and so you only pay half of your social contributions like any normal employed person


Kind of yeah, it "registers" you as a normal employe meaning you are able to get public health-insurance (wich is cheaper anyways compared to private ones) and yet only have to pay your part (other half would normally be paid by your employer, though I can't see if it is payed by the state or just "cancelled"). But I guess that you already know that, from your statement?! (like every person should, but when speaking to my fellow classmates [economics!!!] even there are people who know nothing about our tax system...)


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## shomynik (May 24, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Häh, why Germany makes it hard for freelancers? But to your question:
> http://www.kuenstlersozialkasse.de/jahresmeldung-versicherte.html
> Composers fall under the category M01 as stated there.



Yes, I found that page Alexander but I just wondered if it applies to us working for the game developers who are actually IT sector...I thought maybe that would make some difference.

I have very limited knowledge about the topic as I am only now informing myself, so please correct me if I'm wrong. I basically wrote the part about"hard freelancers life" cause of the complications regarding health and social insurances, not being able to go public, paying full amounts, etc... but ofc then our producing fees should reflect that as well, and there are plenty of private choices. But probably the most of that statement reflects actually MY life ATM :D, thinking about all of this, trying to fully integrate myself, etc  I am not a German native so it's a bit of a challenge.

Are you member of the kuenstlersozialkasse Alexander? And if so, would you recommend going that path?

Thx


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## shomynik (May 24, 2018)

fretti said:


> "Künstler ist, wer Musik, darstellende oder bildende Kunst schafft oder lehrt" from that term I'd say yes (why are we actually still writing in english).
> Though only as long as you actually are Freischaffend and not employed by a company (from your question I understand it you are)
> 
> 
> ...



Hehe, well there is certainly beauty in that, not having to worry about it 

But yes, I will be registered as a Freiberufler, and yes, it says on one of the sites: "The artists are paying half of the fees. The other half is covered by the state as well as a tax paid by companies that engage the services of artists."

BTW, my Deutsch is crap, that's why I'm writing in english. But I'm learning, I like it.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (May 24, 2018)

I sent you a pm for more details.


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## shomynik (May 24, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I sent you a pm for more details.


I replied. Thanks a lot !


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## Hannes_F (May 27, 2018)

shomynik said:


> complications regarding health and social insurances, not being able to go public



I think I don't understand the 'not being able to go public' part. Other than that, in order to get help (money) you need to fill out forms.


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## shomynik (May 27, 2018)

Hannes_F said:


> I think I don't understand the 'not being able to go public' part. Other than that, in order to get help (money) you need to fill out forms.



I meant public health insurance...as i understood, it's not easy to get into public health system as a freelancer. Maybe I am wrong though...

I know there are many many forms to be filled, certainly not something one will miss in Deutschland :D But do you mean some specific forms?


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## lokotus (May 27, 2018)

shomynik said:


> Hello all,
> 
> A quick one - are we as game music composers/producers eligible for entering/registering to this organisation - Künstlersozialkasse?
> 
> ...



As a freelance (composer) you have to enter the KSK (Pflichtversicherung). They will tell you whether or not you have to join the KSK after filling out there forms...


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## shomynik (May 27, 2018)

lokotus said:


> As a freelance (composer) you have to enter the KSK (Pflichtversicherung). They will tell you whether or not you have to join the KSK after filling out there forms...


Oh? And that's not the same? Interesting... Have to get info on that.


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## lpuser (May 27, 2018)

Like mentioned above, there are big hurdles getting into KSK. It only works if you are not earning your living elsewhere - in my case, the main income is not from making music, which means I am not eligible for KSK, *but* (and that is really bulls*it) my employer as well as my own clients have to pay for KSK when I am creating music etc. for them. So while I do not quality (because I could not live without a proper day job), my work is helping others to greatly benefit from KSK ... no more words to add here.


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## shomynik (May 27, 2018)

lpuser said:


> Like mentioned above, there are big hurdles getting into KSK. It only works if you are not earning your living elsewhere - in my case, the main income is not from making music, which means I am not eligible for KSK, *but* (and that is really bulls*it) my employer as well as my own clients have to pay for KSK when I am creating music etc. for them. So while I do not quality (because I could not live without a proper day job), my work is helping others to greatly benefit from KSK ... no more words to add here.



How's that? In what way do your clients pay for KSK? i know there is some percent for client of the members, but you are not a member as I understood.

Yea, I know it's not easy to get in, but from what I read about it I should be fully eligible, and as I am a full time game composer KSK should be the best way for me to go.


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## fretti (May 27, 2018)

lpuser said:


> Like mentioned above, there are big hurdles getting into KSK. It only works if you are not earning your living elsewhere - in my case, the main income is not from making music, which means I am not eligible for KSK, *but* (and that is really bulls*it) my employer as well as my own clients have to pay for KSK when I am creating music etc. for them. So while I do not quality (because I could not live without a proper day job), my work is helping others to greatly benefit from KSK ... no more words to add here.


„Die KSK finanziert sich aus Abgaben, die von Auftraggebern auf Honorare und Rechnungen gezahlt werden müssen, die künstlerische und/ oder publizistische Leistungen beinhalten.“
Would have to ask my Prof. To be sure but tbh if even those have to pay that can‘t enter themselves, I ask myself if that is even constitutionally correct/legal?!
(#GEZ...)
Would be interesting to see in front of the Bundesverfassungsgericht (if there wasn‘t already a case...but to tired right now to look it up, will look into it tomorrow though)...


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## shomynik (May 27, 2018)

Wow, I thought that only clients of the KSK members pay for it (6 or 9%, don't remember)...but now thinking about, that would be hard to track.

So that's like an additional tax for using artist's services...that's really weird as we, artists, already pay income tax, plus there's PDV as well...


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## Hannes_F (May 27, 2018)

shomynik, there seems to be an amount of half-right information in this thread. With that I mean information that could be true and usually perhaps is, but not necessarily.

As an example: I was in the Künstlersozialkasse for a while years ago but since I had had private health insurance before I could choose to stay there or go to private health insurance. It was a choice for life, or with other words at this point I choose never to go to public health insurance ever (at least not as long as I were supported by KSK if I recall correctly). I stayed in the private health insurance but received what was equivalent to half of the public health insurance rate as a surplus. Which was good!

After a while the rate of my artist income dropped under a certain percentage, mainly because DJ-ing is not regarded as artist work. Due to that I dropped out of the Künstlersozialkasse again despite earning money from music (recording music and playing live music, not DJing music).

You see, these both are real examples that go against the generalisations (in one case I was in KSK but still in private health care, in the other case I earned my money almost exclusively with music but still had to leave KSK), so if you really want to know it would be worth it to hire somebody who is good in reading law texts and can translate or explain the key texts for you.

One more hint: Better inform yourself before getting in contact with KSK. Once you send anything to them you'll be on their radar and any fees will count from there, however any surplus or help will only count from the date of your registration process. With other words: Don't call or write and then fill out the forms one year later or so, it could be your loss.

Hope that helps!


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## Hannes_F (May 27, 2018)

P.S: This is the text (law) that is really relevant:
http://www.kuenstlersozialkasse.de/fileadmin/Dokumente/Gesetze/KSVG_-_Stand_29.03.2017_aktuell.pdf


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## lokotus (May 27, 2018)

shomynik said:


> Oh? And that's not the same? Interesting... Have to get info on that.


Google: KSK Pflichtversicherung. They decide after filling out their forms, if you have to enter the KSK or not. Thats the german law.


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## shomynik (May 27, 2018)

Hannes_F said:


> shomynik, there seems to be an amount of half-right information in this thread. With that I mean information that could be true and usually perhaps is, but not necessarily.
> 
> As an example: I was in the Künstlersozialkasse for a while years ago but since I had had private health insurance before I could choose to stay there or go to private health insurance. It was a choice for life, or with other words at this point I choose never to go to public health insurance ever (at least not as long as I were supported by KSK if I recall correctly). I stayed in the private health insurance but received what was equivalent to half of the public health insurance rate as a surplus. Which was good!
> 
> ...



Fantastic info Hannes, thank you so much! By reading a lot of info on the forums (mainly toytowngermany) I totally got the complexity of the system and that there are many many nuances that could make unexpected happen. Now I'm pretty sure I'll hire help.

One thing though... what do you mean by "I stayed in the private health insurance but received what was equivalent to half of the public health insurance rate as a surplus." I am not completely understanding this, were you getting some money back? Or are you saying you simply were paying private insurance half as much as public? I am aware there are many private offers.



Hannes_F said:


> One more hint: Better inform yourself before getting in contact with KSK. Once you send anything to them you'll be on their radar and any fees will count from there, however any surplus or help will only count from the date of your registration process. With other words: Don't call or write and then fill out the forms one year later or so, it could be your loss.
> 
> Hope that helps!



I know that once one become a member of KSK he has to pay the monthly pension payments for the time since he applied for a membership. But from what you are saying it seems I missed some other fees. What are those?


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## shomynik (May 27, 2018)

lokotus said:


> Google: KSK Pflichtversicherung. They decide after filling out their forms, if you have to enter the KSK or not. Thats the german law.


Superb info, thank you! I somehow missed on that.


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## Harzmusic (May 28, 2018)

fretti said:


> other half would normally be paid by your employer, though I can't see if it is payed by the state or just "cancelled".


That other half is actually financed through the "Künstlersozialabgabe", which each and every company employing the services of artists has to pay.
I guess a lot of people don't know that, but if you are a company and regularly employ artists for your projects, you need to pay a ~5% fee on the total - it doesn't matter whether or not that artist is member of the KSK, and it is illegal to factor that into negotiations. Not knowing about that rule can get ugly with some hefty fines.
However that is how the employers contribution to the insurance is financed AFAIK.


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## fretti (May 28, 2018)

Harzmusic said:


> That other half is actually financed through the "Künstlersozialabgabe", which each and every company employing the services of artists has to pay.
> I guess a lot of people don't know that, but if you are a company and regularly employ artists for your projects, you need to pay a ~5% fee on the total - it doesn't matter whether or not that artist is member of the KSK, and it is illegal to factor that into negotiations. Not knowing about that rule can get ugly with some hefty fines.
> However that is how the employers contribution to the insurance is financed AFAIK.


Thanks! 
Yes read into it a little and into their laws, makes sense for them to finance it that way. Couldn't really imagine though after my first reads that the self-employee/freelancer only pays half and the other half is just dismissed or so (therefor my "question").


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## fretti (May 28, 2018)

BTW to what I wrote yesterday:
Just looked it up, there actually was a complaint by a company in 2015 submitted to the BVerfG about the payings of 4.2% of the fees the artist gets. Was dismissed earlier this year (in case someone missed that):
https://www.kulturrat.de/pressemitt...assungsbeschwerde-wurde-vom-bverfg-abgelehnt/


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## shomynik (May 28, 2018)

Harzmusic said:


> That other half is actually financed through the "Künstlersozialabgabe", which each and every company employing the services of artists has to pay.
> I guess a lot of people don't know that, but if you are a company and regularly employ artists for your projects, you need to pay a ~5% fee on the total - it doesn't matter whether or not that artist is member of the KSK, and it is illegal to factor that into negotiations. Not knowing about that rule can get ugly with some hefty fines.
> However that is how the employers contribution to the insurance is financed AFAIK.



Actually, that makes a perfect sense, it's a contribution similar to any other employer who pays half of their employee's social liabilities. I am now quite used to German system being rarely unfair (if ever), so I just waited all of this to make sense for me 

But why would clients factor that into negotiations if they have to pay that fee no matter which artist they choose?


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## Harzmusic (May 28, 2018)

shomynik said:


> But why would clients factor that into negotiations if they have to pay that fee no matter which artist they choose?


That's the idea behind having to pay for any kind of artistic service, so there would not be an economical downside for artists who use the KSK for insurance.

Some people think that they only have to pay if the artist is member of the KSK, confusing it with the GEMA.
So saying "hey, you will get less money from us, because we have to pay this fee for even employing you" is not allowed.
I have also had a client who wanted me to write something "non-artistic" on my invoice, so that they don't have to pay. The problem is, that I need to prove a certain percentage of income from artistic work, so if everyone pressures me to do that I will lose insurance or have to pay more.
To my knowledge that is why this is illegal - which of course doesn't mean it never happens.
I am no lawyer, but I'm assuming if this kind of behaviour is discovered in audit, this company is screwed big time. The possible fines go up to 6-figures.

But I am not confident in knowing this in-depth, I sat through a couple of lectures on that stuff, that's all.


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## Hannes_F (May 28, 2018)

shomynik said:


> One thing though... what do you mean by "I stayed in the private health insurance but received what was equivalent to half of the public health insurance rate as a surplus." I am not completely understanding this, were you getting some money back? Or are you saying you simply were paying private insurance half as much as public? I am aware there are many private offers.


I paid my rate to the private health insurance as ever, but from Künstlersozialkasse I got half of their usual rate as a reimbursement (usual means 'calculated as if I were in public health insurance). 



> I know that once one become a member of KSK he has to pay the monthly pension payments for the time since he applied for a membership. But from what you are saying it seems I missed some other fees. What are those?


Not sure we are on the same page here. As a rule the fees are made up of three parts:
1. Contributions to health insurance (but KSK will pay an amount to it too)
2. Contributions to federal pension funds (but KSK will pay an amount to it too and as a rule you'll receive a German pension in old age according to a point system)
3. Contributions to nursing insurance (but as a rule you are eligible to German nursing payment in old age)

For more detailled information it would really pay off to get some competent assistence!


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## Hannes_F (May 28, 2018)

Harzmusic said:


> That's the idea behind having to pay for any kind of artistic service, so there would not be an economical downside for artists who use the KSK for insurance.



Exactly. The lawmakers wanted this to prevent the membership in KSK to be used against the artist in negotiations (you are in KSK? Then we will search for somebody who is not). So everybody (every business who regularly hire authors, fotographers, musicians and other artists) has to pay into the pot, no matter whether the artist is in KSK or not.


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## lpuser (May 28, 2018)

Hannes_F said:


> So everybody (every business who regularly hire authors, fotographers, musicians and other artists) has to pay into the pot, no matter whether the artist is in KSK or not.



Yes, and that exactly is very upsetting ... for instance when a band has to pay for their own appearances multiple times into KSK, while not even all members can enjoy the 50% price reduction on insurance fees associated with KSK (lawsuits have been made and rejected).

It is also worth noting that self employed people in Germany in all other sectors (even in healthcare!) have to cover the costs for their insurance themselves, while a certain percentage of artists gain a 50% deduction for which also other artists (who do not benefit) contribute.

On many occasions, I have seen that companies stop hiring external artists but try to cover everything with their own internal personel in order to avoid paying an addition > 5% on every order into KSK.


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## Hannes_F (May 28, 2018)

... lpuser I see your point but you have to add that in those cases where artists do not benefit it is mostly because they have another more substantial income besides arts that keeps them from getting the benefits (as in my case).

As for companies - so they don't want to give money to the artist's health and pension funds and rather have the artists they hire be helpless later in case of illness and age. Blame the health and pension funds, get rid of it!

Bottom line - the KSK is an act of society's solidarity towards mostly starving artists, and if anybody is not in it because of overweighting additional income then be happy.


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## lpuser (May 28, 2018)

... but Hannes, how would things be when companies would have to pay to into health and pension funds for ALL other industries? I mean, not only artists can get ill but also (and probably much more likely) people who work in healthcare etc. In my opinion, KSK is just an system of injustice, because either something like this should apply to all industries or to none. But that´s just my 2 cent and I can understand that those who benefit are very happy with the situation (which is fair enough).


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## fretti (May 28, 2018)

When companies have to pay in the KSK no matter weither one is "in there" or not is in my eyes a flawed system when there are obstacles for one to participate and benefit from it. 
If the state wants to do it that way, at least make it possible for _all_ artists who want to join, to actually be able to join. 
Otherwise, when one isn't even allowed to join because of whatever reason, it's unfair for him/her that the work they get paid for supports a system they aren't allowed in. But if it's voluntary for every artist to join, if he/she wants to, then everyone would at least have the chance to benefit and can't complain if he/she simply doesn't choose to.


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## Hannes_F (May 28, 2018)

Well, that is the problem with all systems based on solidarity - sometimes you have to pay for other people. And if people don't see that any more and just care about themselves, be it inside or outside of companies, then it will not work.

Society in Germany has decided that artists need special financial protection: one is the KSK that cares for health and age, and the other is that artists only collect a reduced VAT ratio. One privilege goes away when artists do not do art as their main profession, the other stays. Germany is a rare place in caring about artists in that way, and it is paradox that of all places in a composer's forum people are raging about it.

Then: Artists as a rule do not have to pay into the KSK if they are not a member. The money is collected from companies (and only from those who hire artists regularly), not from non-member artists. My wife hires many photographers and other artists for an insurance company, and they happily pay the KSK surplus. It would be catastrophic for the artist community if this money flow would cease.

If you are not allowed to join KSK then you are not living from art as your main income, period. Band musicians who pay for playing in a bar for their fun and not for real money are amateurs per definition, and music as a hobby costs money, get over it. Negotiate better with the bar owner, he is supposed to pay KSK, not you.


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## Heinigoldstein (May 28, 2018)

I think the basic idea of KSK still is great. Every body involved pays solidly united a little amount, so artists can get the chance of health and social injurance, even if earning little money. I know a lot of artists that benefit from it and as a former studio owner, I always was willing to pay my +/- 5% , even if it hurt pretty often.
The problem nowadays is, like so often, that bureaucracy gets out of hand. It's ridiculous, that a client doesn't have to pay , when he hires a company. But he has to pay, when he hires a freelancer f.e. It's not only the 5% extra charge, it's even more often the extra amount of paperwork that leads to a disadvantage for the freelancer. And since a lot of artists are freelancers, this is the antipode of the original idea behind KSK.


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## shomynik (May 30, 2018)

Harzmusic said:


> That's the idea behind having to pay for any kind of artistic service, so there would not be an economical downside for artists who use the KSK for insurance.
> 
> Some people think that they only have to pay if the artist is member of the KSK, confusing it with the GEMA.
> So saying "hey, you will get less money from us, because we have to pay this fee for even employing you" is not allowed.
> ...



Yes, I presumed that things like that happen. Thank you for the in-depth info, really valuable for me to be prepared.


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## shomynik (May 30, 2018)

Hannes_F said:


> I paid my rate to the private health insurance as ever, but from Künstlersozialkasse I got half of their usual rate as a reimbursement (usual means 'calculated as if I were in public health insurance).
> 
> 
> Not sure we are on the same page here. As a rule the fees are made up of three parts:
> ...



Ah, yes, I know everything about all of those already, I misunderstood you for a moment thinking that there are some other fees as well. Thanks Hannes.


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## shomynik (May 30, 2018)

Hannes_F said:


> I paid my rate to the private health insurance as ever, but from Künstlersozialkasse I got half of their usual rate as a reimbursement (usual means 'calculated as if I were in public health insurance).
> 
> 
> Not sure we are on the same page here. As a rule the fees are made up of three parts:
> ...


Oh my, I just realized I was misreading your name (for a while now here in the forum) and I addressed you wrongly as Hans. I corrected it now in my posts but please forgive me.


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## Hannes_F (May 30, 2018)

Heinigoldstein said:


> I think the basic idea of KSK still is great. Every body involved pays solidly united a little amount, so artists can get the chance of health and social injurance, even if earning little money. I know a lot of artists that benefit from it and as a former studio owner, I always was willing to pay my +/- 5% , even if it hurt pretty often.
> The problem nowadays is, like so often, that bureaucracy gets out of hand. It's ridiculous, that a client doesn't have to pay , when he hires a company. But he has to pay, when he hires a freelancer f.e. It's not only the 5% extra charge, it's even more often the extra amount of paperwork that leads to a disadvantage for the freelancer. And since a lot of artists are freelancers, this is the antipode of the original idea behind KSK.


What a well formulated observation! We suffer from so many processes that begin to go against their original intent with time. Without constant readjustment they will almost always contradict themselves in the end.


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