# The time I was called "immoral" for using virtual instruments.



## Dear Villain (Feb 4, 2020)

I made a blog post about the time a "friend" of mine (professional orchestral musician) suggested I was immoral for using virtual instruments and threatening working musicians. If you'd like to read it, I've posted the link below:

http://davidcarovillano.com/2020/02/03/the-time-i-was-called-immoral-for-using-virtual-instruments/ (The time I was called &quot;immoral&quot; for using virtual instruments.)


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## Daryl (Feb 4, 2020)

I don't think there is anything immoral. However, imagine that your work opportunities drastically diminished, because other people were prepared to do the work for nothing. I think you'd be rather put out, to say the least.

Unfortunately the sort of capitalism that drives the desire to make everything cheaper will affect your ability to make a living, at some point in the future, and I hope that we're not having the same conversation when we reach that point.


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## mcovarrubiasi (Feb 4, 2020)

I don't think its clear that VIs diminish the demand for musicians. The ability to sketch parts when producing is a huge plus for including "classical" instruments in many genres. Once you get down that path, at some point you want the real deal, since we all know that a good performance by real musicians is glory. I am at that point. 

There are so many nuances involved in playing a violin, we will never replace that. Even if we have the samples and script ability, it is just not efficient nor inspiring to do these by hand.


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## Dear Villain (Feb 4, 2020)

Another point I made in response to the musician was that, as a composer, VI's give me the opportunity to share my music with an audience without being dependant on the availability and/or interest of musicians to perform my work. It is unrealistic to expect all of our work to get played live, even if we are connected to a wide network of musicians. I've had pieces intended for live performers take 5 plus years to actually make it to the stage...if I didn't have access to VIs, all I'd have is a score collecting dust on my shelf. 

I hear you, mcovarrubiasi, re. seeking out live performances. I can also say, that with few exceptions, most live performances have not lived up to my mockups, for technical and/or interpretive reasons. The reality is not because the musicians aren't capable of such, but rather that more often than not, they are under-rehearsed (time is money and an orchestra has a tight schedule to prepare for a concert...and you can imagine that the unknown living composer isn't going to receive the same consideration as the Beethoven or the Mahler that appears on the same program).

Of course, the joy of collaboration and having music brought to life by competent musicians in front of an enthusiastic audience will eclipse even a "perfect" virtual mock-up for all the obvious reasons...which is why I said to this musician that orchestras are in no danger of being completely replaced by virtual instruments.


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## Thomas Kallweit (Feb 4, 2020)

Maybe he was just frigthened because of those virtual instruments, which could steal realtime jobs with all that "cheating" and artificial note paintings. This could be "the demon" _(just kidding) _
And yes, you are absolutely right with your explanantion I guess, hopefully he gave some thoughts to your answer.


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## givemenoughrope (Feb 4, 2020)

I starting to realize that I'm not exactly sure what a virtual instrument is...or at least where the line is drawn. If a software instrument isn't meant to emulate a traditional instrument or pre-existing hardware is it a Virtual Instrument or just a software instrument? Or am I split the hairs? LASS is a VI (or I guess LASS within Kontakt) but is S&A Auras? The latter has string samples in it but it isn't really trying to emulate a string section. Is a Mellotron or Reaktor a VI? What about a hardware digital synth?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 4, 2020)

mcovarrubiasi said:


> I don't think its clear that VIs diminish the demand for musicians.



A lot of people who haven't been working in studios for 30 years would disagree, to say nothing of all the people in surrounding careers!

But we're all Spartacus and we all use V.I.s.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 4, 2020)

givemenoughrope said:


> I starting to realize that I'm not exactly sure what a virtual instrument is...or at least where the line is drawn.



The line between a synth and a sampler is fuzzy (because the oscillating sound at the core may or may not be derived from a recorded waveform), but the point is that the music for every TV show and commercial used to have live musicians. How many TV shows do today? Eight?


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## Thundercat (Feb 4, 2020)

Trying to fight technology is like trying to push a string. Or catch the wind in your hand. It simply can't be stopped.

The other musician's real enemy is not VI, but the steady and inevitable march of change that hits us all. He shouldn't have vilified you for taking advantage of tech.

That said, I truly understand the anger and frustration. When I was a young guy I was teaching computer design software (among many other softwares). This was about the time when the digital revolution came into full swing, and software was replacing the old time paste up artists who used to make "camera ready art" and use photography and other tech to create ads and layouts for magazines etc.

I will never forget the hostility of some of the older students who were attending the class, sat in the back, arms crossed, scowls on their faces. "No way in hell some young f**k is going to tell ME how to do my job!"

We adjust, or we do something else. It's horrible and wonderful all rolled in one. But it is what it is.

Cash is going away. Not today, but soon, next few years. And many, many jobs will be gone due to AI, including perhaps basic underscoring and even basic basic scoring to picture. We can cry for the loss of the old ways, adapt, or do something else.

When faced with any situation we don't like, we have three choices, the "three A's":

Alter
Avoid
Accept

Pick one. I haven't decided yet which I will choose.

Mike


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## givemenoughrope (Feb 4, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The line between a synth and a sampler is fuzzy (because the oscillating sound at the core may or may not be derived from a recorded waveform), but the point is that the music for every TV show and commercial used to have live musicians. How many TV shows do today? Eight?



I don't disagree. I guess q was technically off-topic.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Feb 6, 2020)

Unfortunately, your "friend" has been living a sheltered existence for the past 20 years. He/she obviously isn't working in the media industry. Although not technically a virtual instrument per se....I wonder if your "friend" realizes that his/her orchestral music is probably being recorded and processed with virtual synthesis (Pro Tools, 3rd party plugins, computers, etc)?


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## C.R. Rivera (Feb 6, 2020)

We have a similar argument in the field of history as the number of professional historians (I have taught for 20+ years at the university/college level) are outnumbered and overwhelmed by hobbyists and non-professionals who do not have to meeet vigorous standards in all areas. And, journalism is going through the same process, as witnessed by the number of stringers on Yahoo, et. al, who cannot spell, edit, or, fact-check. As I tell my colleagues with the immortal words of Martin Luther...."Here I stand. I can do no other."


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## jononotbono (Feb 6, 2020)

Using a VI is Immoral? That's hilarious.


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## Dear Villain (Feb 6, 2020)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Unfortunately, your "friend" has been living a sheltered existence for the past 20 years. He/she obviously isn't working in the media industry. Although not technically a virtual instrument per se....I wonder if your "friend" realizes that his/her orchestral music is probably being recorded and processed with virtual synthesis (Pro Tools, 3rd party plugins, computers, etc)?



No, the person is a 30 year orchestral musician. They mentioned how many of their colleagues in the orchestra would often discuss the impending threat on their livelihood. One thing I'm curious about, is what their thoughts would have been on the actual musicians that were hired to play for the library producers.


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## kitekrazy (Feb 6, 2020)

The other side of the coin is home studios are very affordable and there are people who can collaborate to make some money. Many don't charge a lot to do a recording for someone. A lot of singers do this these days. One recording could cost less than one buying a vocal library and messing around trying to get it right. If I needed a pedal steel player for a song it would probably be better to hire one to record it and send it to you.


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## Polkasound (Feb 6, 2020)

Dear Villain said:


> They mentioned how many of their colleagues in the orchestra would often discuss the impending threat on their livelihood.



In polka music, the only musicians who lost work due to technology are the bass players. Going back as far as the 1960s, electronics were added to accordions allowing accordionists to play bass sounds with their left hands. But bass players weren't really affected until the 1980s when MIDI came into use, and bands had to begin downsizing. This was a one-two combo punch for bass players. Today, the amount of work for bass players in Wisconsin polka bands is down greater than 99% from 35 years ago.

When it comes to polka recordings, MIDI sound modules have been used for decades, but they didn't affect recording musicians much because sound modules didn't replace musicians -- they were mostly used to embellish recordings. And then I came along. I wasn't the first musician to use virtual instrument technology on a polka recording, but I don't think anyone has embraced and employed it to the level I have. Most musicians appreciate what I do, because they see it as the evolution of MIDI in polka music. But there are a handful in the industry who vehemently insist one must use live musicians and real instruments on recordings. They'll take no part in the creation of virtual instrument libraries.


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## Thundercat (Feb 6, 2020)

Polkasound said:


> But there are a handful in the industry who vehemently insist one must use live musicians and real instruments on recordings. They'll take no part in the creation of virtual instrument libraries.


It's "last stand" thinking...didn't end well for Custer...


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## nolotrippen (Feb 6, 2020)

This reminds me of how mad I got when the fortepiano put all those harpsichord makers out of work. It wasn't until the renewed interest in period instruments in the 1950s and 60s that the harpsichord made a comeback (also in movie and TV work; imagine the Addams Family theme without it).

I remember when the Mellotron was going to put orchestra players out of work. Except it didn't. Real orchestras are still around, as is the Mellotron (at least as samples). Then there's library music which has been around since the silent era.

CGI effects have put many a model maker out of a job (or into learning CGI). I just watched 2019's Midway. The CGI effects are so much better than 1976 Midway's use of grainy, poorly colorized stock footage; Universal was too cheap to even make their own effects and models instead using the masterful work from Tora Tora Tora. 

Type is no longe set by hand or even on Linotype machines. It can all be done with a Macintosh.

Things change. The people putting up the money want to spend as little of it as possible or put it where it makes little sense: "I can't spend $50 grand on an orchestral score! I have to pay an over-hyped actor and the catering bill is very important."

Back to my Scotch.


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## jononotbono (Feb 6, 2020)

Is there anyone here at VI-C that’s really aggravated that VIs (not viral infections) exist?


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## ism (Feb 7, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Is there anyone here at VI-C that’s really aggravated that VIs (not viral infections) exist?



I suppose there's are moments when, for instance, I play with a really good, say, solo cello VI, one that's really brilliantly sampled, but that even in its brilliance just kind of shows how far it is from a real cellist. In these moments I'd very happily trade all the VIs in the world to be able to play the cello. 

Or I suppose more precisely, to be able to play the cello well, and have somewhere like AIR Lyndhurst in which to play it.


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## jononotbono (Feb 7, 2020)

ism said:


> I suppose there's are moments when, for instance, I play with a really good, say, solo cello VI, one that's really brilliantly sampled, but that even in its brilliance just kind of shows how far it is from a real cellist. In these moments I'd very happily trade all the VIs in the world to be able to play the cello.
> 
> Or I suppose more precisely, to be able to play the cello well, and have somewhere like AIR Lyndhurst in which to play it.



Everyone feels like that. Well, they should and if they don't then I will go out on a limb to say they have absolutely no idea what the "real" instrument/s actually sound like. I find this with people raving about Guitar Libraries especially. There's some cool stuff out there (been recently using Realitone's FingerPick 2 - and yes I am a Guitarist - and think it's a great library! Excellent sound, real quick way of getting some ideas down when there's no Guitar laying about and way good enough to keep in finished tracks) but when you try and do anything slightly how you can play the guitar, they very quickly fall flat on their face.

After working with an Orchestra for the first time a couple of years back, it took a couple of days of drinking to get past the "Oh, they are samples" but it didn't take long to be happy again that I can write music behind a keyboard controller. I love that. People actually think it's immoral to use a VI? Gimme a break. Selling drugs to children. That's immoral. Slavery. That's immoral. Writing music with Virtual Instruments? Immoral? Some people are completely fucking out of their minds.


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## Dear Villain (Feb 7, 2020)

ism said:


> I suppose there's are moments when, for instance, I play with a really good, say, solo cello VI, one that's really brilliantly sampled, but that even in its brilliance just kind of shows how far it is from a real cellist. In these moments I'd very happily trade all the VIs in the world to be able to play the cello.
> 
> Or I suppose more precisely, to be able to play the cello well, and have somewhere like AIR Lyndhurst in which to play it.



Not to hijack my own thread with shameless self-promotion, but seeing your comment, ism, and remembering that you've checked out some of my music in the past, I wanted to share with you my brand new cello concerto. It's almost half an hour in length, but you may enjoy it. It took 6 months for the mock-up. How does it relate to this thread? I actually intended it for the individual that called me "immoral". Now, I'll be shopping it to other cellists/orchestras. In the meantime, I'm very proud of this VSL version as it definitely was my most ambitious midi mockup to date. Hope you'll check it out!

Cello Concerto - Play on Youtube

Cheers!
Dave


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## JJP (Feb 7, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> What one can say to a musician is that at least the AFM protects your rates when you are hired, composers have no protection unless they have leverage and that is only several dozen composers on the A-list out of the almost 80,000 that exist.
> 
> I’m by no means against musicians or the AFM, just wish some union protected composers too.



That could be fixed if composers wanted to pull together and form a guild, union, or whatever. A good start would be if the Your Music Your Future campaign eventually moved in this direction.

Regarding the immorality of VIs, is the use of VIs any more immoral than artificial intelligence replacing composers for low-end libraries in the coming years?


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## clisma (Feb 7, 2020)

I don't think it's inherently immoral to use VIs for mockups, or the final score, really. But I do believe that it's not necessary, and to a larger extent, is promoting a certain 'musical deficiency.' 

It used to be that you would play your cue for the director on the piano, singing some parts, explaining how it might sound (with the exception of synth scores). This required a certain level of knowledge and trust from the director (and in the case of film, the studio). The director, specifically, had to understand music pretty well, or at least partially speak the language. 

Now, it's standard to have to mockup the whole score for them to hear it, make changes until it's perfect (with the perpetually changing cut) and then record. I can see how this creates additional stress.

In the case of TV, the mockup has largely replaced the live recording, with the exception of soloists. So there is indeed this devaluation of the instrumentalist, at least to some degree. And it's hard to argue against this when most TV shows consider the approach of "mockup is good enough." (No mockup exists that would not greatly benefit from a real ensemble)

It's true that some jobs were created in this transition, while other were lost but, really, the question for me is simple: was this necessary? Did it help improve the aesthetic of the film, the show?*

I believe the answer is likely "no." What it did help, however, is to make the studios'/production companies' overhead smaller. Capitalism wins.


* Exception made for scores that are heavy on sound design.


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## Mike Fox (Feb 7, 2020)

Using virtual instruments isn't immoral. 

Pirating them is.


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## JJP (Feb 7, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> It’s gonna take a long time before AI replaces creativity.



It's a lot closer than you may be aware. We already have a company out there that composers are using to generate the music, then they download it, tweak it a bit, and send it off.

Heck most online sports summaries are written by AI today.


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