# Anyone doing serious orchestral composing entirely in Pro Tools ?



## rickdeckard (Jun 12, 2020)

Wondering if anyone manages to compose entirely with MIDI inside Pro Tools...VSL, Kontakt, etc etc the usual Orchestral libraries, with big templates (nothing extreme, 60/70 tracks) ?

Thanks!


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## Soundlex (Jun 12, 2020)

Absolutely. Every single day for the last 12 years.


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## cqd (Jun 12, 2020)

Yeah..especially now with the folder tracks it rocks ass..


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## samphony (Jun 12, 2020)

But don’t you run into these typical -6xxx errors especially if the video engine is enabled?


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## resonate (Jun 12, 2020)

so you guys use VE PRO, right? Do you have any way of handling articulations except extra tracks? I've seen this video some time ago, but could not replicate the behavior. What do you think is happening here?


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## ProfoundSilence (Jun 12, 2020)

pretty sure mike verta exclusively uses pro tools


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## cqd (Jun 12, 2020)

resonate said:


> so you guys use VE PRO, right? Do you have any way of handling articulations except extra tracks? I've seen this video some time ago, but could not replicate the behavior. What do you think is happening here?



???

He's just switching using recorded keyswitches surely?..
I don't really bother with vepro (I probably should) and generally use just keyswitches for articulations..


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## ProfoundSilence (Jun 12, 2020)

@tack made the brilliant flexrouter for kontakt as a multiscript. This allows you to set up keyswitches/ect within kontakt itself with many options


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## cqd (Jun 12, 2020)

Mike Verta does use one track per articulation too though..


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## Anders Wall (Jun 13, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> @tack made the brilliant flexrouter for kontakt as a multiscript. This allows you to set up keyswitches/ect within kontakt itself with many options


This!

And I use a Streamdeck for switching.
Have generic set and folders for “specials” like the different mutes on the samplemodeling brass etc.

I run a HDX system (on a Mac mini) and convert my vids to dnxhd, haven’t had a software glitch in years.

Best,
/Anders


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## mikeh-375 (Jun 13, 2020)

What about VSL's own app? It makes life so easy.


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## resonate (Jun 13, 2020)

cqd said:


> ???
> He's just switching using recorded keyswitches surely?..
> I don't really bother with vepro (I probably should) and generally use just keyswitches for articulations..



It looks like he transmits program changes from pt to vienna instrument, and then VI changes articulations. AFAIK, you can only use PG Changes with Vienna to change whole layers,no?


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## Nils Neumann (Jun 13, 2020)

Brian Tyler does


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## cqd (Jun 13, 2020)

resonate said:


> It looks like he transmits program changes from pt to vienna instrument, and then VI changes articulations. AFAIK, you can only use PG Changes with Vienna to change whole layers,no?



You can change between the articulations in VI with keyswitches and CC1.. Should be no problem to do that through vepro..

The blocks in PT just have midi on them selecting the keyswitches I'd imagine..


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## resonate (Jun 13, 2020)

cqd said:


> You can change between the articulations in VI with keyswitches and CC1.. Should be no problem to do that through vepro..
> The blocks in PT just have midi on them selecting the keyswitches I'd imagine..



yeah, thats one way of doing it, but it seems like in the video, he's sending real program change data - which chase properly. I assume there has to be some software working in the background changing the program changes to keyswitch data for the vienna instruments plugin, but looking all around DUC I haven't found any working solution...


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## tack (Jun 13, 2020)

cqd said:


> Mike Verta does use one track per articulation too though..


But Mike can't stand doing mockups. He hates everything about the process, and I'm not sure I blame him with a track per articulation setup. 

With this approach, it seems to me you just have to forego the option to sculpt a line by bouncing around articulations. Like this example, which changes articulations 6 times in a short phrase to get a believable performance:







So it depends on your priorities. If you want to craft the most believable performance possible with samples, surely a track per articulation will drive you to madness. But if you just want to get something passable out for review before it goes to live players, it probably doesn't matter.


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## Soundlex (Jun 13, 2020)

cqd said:


> Mike Verta does use one track per articulation too though..


Me too...so much more control and better results.


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## rickdeckard (Jun 13, 2020)

Yeah I was wondering about articulation switching as well...unfortunately with the amount of articulations available in libraries nowadays, it's become a necessity. The best solution I've found so far is Logic's Articulation Sets


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## JohnG (Jun 13, 2020)

I know of more than one person who does TV who uses PT for midi and audio. You may know that TV deadlines are absolutely the most relentless and difficult to meet.

From that information alone I conclude that it's possible.

Here's the thing: whatever you want the end to be, it is going to take a ton of time and brainpower to put it together. So if you _want_ to work in PT, by all means, but don't assume just because it's not that common that it's either harder or easier.

It's _always_ incredibly complicated to set up a serious orchestral palette, so the worst possible decision rule is "it looks hard so I'm going to do something else." Since it's going to be hard anyway, might as well just start on the setup you'd like to have, rather than follow someone else's as a model.

Most guys, if offered to start from scratch, would do things differently.

----
my own setup is fiendishly complicated and probably designed by Satan to torture me. But it kind of metastasised over many years from a nice little back garden into a fiendish jungle. With no light. And lots of mosquitoes. And stinging ants...


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## Mishabou (Jun 13, 2020)

resonate said:


> It looks like he transmits program changes from pt to vienna instrument, and then VI changes articulations. AFAIK, you can only use PG Changes with Vienna to change whole layers,no?



PC works with practically any VI, including Kontakt. When i compose in PT, i use PC for articulations switching, no VEP pro.


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## jbuhler (Jun 13, 2020)

JohnG said:


> I know of more than one person who does TV who uses PT for midi and audio. You may know that TV deadlines are absolutely the most relentless and difficult to meet.
> 
> From that information alone I conclude that it's possible.
> 
> ...


So set-ups all end up looking like Rube Goldberg machines in the end?


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## JohnG (Jun 13, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> So set-ups all end up looking like Rube Goldberg machines in the end?



I doubt that anyone could intentionally devise a setup more complicated than I generated by accident.


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## resonate (Jun 13, 2020)

JohnG said:


> I doubt that anyone could intentionally devise a setup more complicated than I generated by accident.



indulge us!


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## JohnG (Jun 13, 2020)

resonate said:


> indulge us!



If by that you mean describe how I'm set up, I will spare you the horrible details. Just to give you a taste: it's five computers, outboard gear, five monitors...

....aaaagh...

At least it sounds awesome and I can record here.


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## puffer3 (Jun 14, 2020)

From what I saw on youtube it seems like Jeff Russo uses Pro Tools all the time.

I am wondering like the OP as well. I migrated to Pro Tools after using Logic (poorly) basically as a tape recorder for years. I made a conscious effort to become more powerful at using PT as a DAW. Now I have been mixing my own music in PT and doing some midi arranging, but have found it a bit cumbersome occasionally for things like drums (using battery) and the midi editing can feel a bit unmusical in the navigation. The midi editing in logic just felt better. 

As I start to pivot towards more orchestral workflows aimed at composing for visual media, is it worth powering through and finding solutions to some of my PT midi frustrations bc I have ground all the key commands into my head, or should I use the "PT as tape recorder, deliverable output" workflow and relearn Logic or learn Cubase as a more composition friendly ecosystem? I use some hardware synthesizers, microphones, rhodes piano, but I a also learning orchestration. 

This is a basic question thats asked a million times, and I don't mean to hijack the thread here, but the ethos of "The best DAW is the one you know" doesn't really resolve this issue for me. Is the best DAW for orchestration the one you know (PT in this case)? Or is it Logic or Cubase into PT for deliverables??


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## cqd (Jun 14, 2020)

Pro tools midi isn't half as bad as it's made out to be..read up on a few shortcuts maybe..practice for a few days..
I tried cubase..went back to pt..


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## puffer3 (Jun 14, 2020)

This is true I have found really learning PT that many people say the MIDI is much better than it used to be. There is this lingering reputation that PT midi is worlds away from other DAWs, which I suspect more and more isnt the case.

I will take your advice cqd and really try to dive in to MIDI in PT.

One thing I found that really sped up my workflow is in the Prefrences->MIDI, setting the "Default Thru Instrument" to "first selected midi track" so I could select tracks and play them without them having to be record enabled. Call me crazy but it took me a while to find that and that was one thing that I enjoyed in the Cubase demo I downloaded! click it and play it... hitting shift+r in PT all the time seemed silly.


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## cqd (Jun 14, 2020)

Yeah, there's different annoying settings that you've to set up to your preference..the quantisation/humanisation/step sequencer has to be kind of learned too, but it's there..

My midi window has the velocity/modulation/expression and sustain lanes open under it too..It helps..


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## puffer3 (Jun 14, 2020)

Great tip! I simply have to ask if you have any more Pro Tools centric MIDI tips?

Since you can't have two sessions open at once, do you bounce down in any specific way?


My 2011 Imac wont even run the newest logic, so this is my world till I get a new macmini.


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## resonate (Jun 19, 2020)

puffer3 said:


> Great tip! I simply have to ask if you have any more Pro Tools centric MIDI tips?


there are some good tips here :









recording.guru


This channel gives quick answers to Avid Pro Tools problems and features. It also showcases some quick tips to work faster, smarter and more creatively in Pr...




www.youtube.com


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## KerrySmith (Mar 8, 2021)

puffer3 said:


> This is true I have found really learning PT that many people say the MIDI is much better than it used to be. There is this lingering reputation that PT midi is worlds away from other DAWs, which I suspect more and more isnt the case.
> 
> I will take your advice cqd and really try to dive in to MIDI in PT.
> 
> One thing I found that really sped up my workflow is in the Prefrences->MIDI, setting the "Default Thru Instrument" to "first selected midi track" so I could select tracks and play them without them having to be record enabled. Call me crazy but it took me a while to find that and that was one thing that I enjoyed in the Cubase demo I downloaded! click it and play it... hitting shift+r in PT all the time seemed silly.


HOL-EEEEEE SHARPNESS! How the hell have I missed this for the last 20 years??? Life changed. Mind blown! Thanks Puffer!


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## kev (Mar 12, 2021)

Life changed for me too! I like using midi plugins (reason rack players in this case) and setting midi thru to default to that track allows me to just set up instrument tracks that receive midi from that processed midi track and record onto it without having to arm 2 tracks. Amazing!!! Thank you!!!!!


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## samphony (Mar 12, 2021)

One thing that is still beyond me is if you route couple tracks into an aux and use sends as well and hit solo on one of the tracks PT cannot auto solo all related tracks.
I use PT for delivery or real-time stemming but many years I stumble upon this.


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## dylanmixer (Mar 12, 2021)

I used Pro Tools for a number of years and switched to Cubase in 2015. Never looked back. I have no doubt that it's probably improved though.


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## easyrider (Mar 12, 2021)

Studio one and sound variations.... Studio one talks to VSL’s synchron player in real-time and automatically creates the sound variations...


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