# Komplete Kontrol and VEPro



## jononotbono (Sep 10, 2018)

So I have a few questions regarding using Komplete Kontrol, Kontakt, The Lightguide, VEPro 6 and Cubase 9.5...

Is it possible to use the Lightguide for VI's hosted inside Kontakt, that are hosted within VEPro?

If, as an example, I had 100 instances of Kontakt in my VEPro template and all connected via Cubase Rack Instruments and Midi tracks, with multiple (let's say 16) Instruments in each Kontakt, would I be able to put each instance of Kontakt in an instance of KK and have the Light Guide work on a Kontrol S Controller? 

So, every time I select a different midi track in Cubase with a different instrument, the Lightguide would change?

I'm wondering all of this before I invest in a Kontrol S88 mk2 Keyboard and any advice on this would be appreciated.

Many thanks!

Jono


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## procreative (Sep 11, 2018)

No its not! The nearest I can get is that you have to select the Instance button on the keyboard and manually choose the instance. Its a bit hit and miss and sometimes you have to go into the VEP instance and click a little keyboard symbol to wake it up.

Plus both the VEP instance and Keyboard need to be on the same computer as the KK software needs to communicate with the hardware and cannot do it over a network.

Been asking VSL to make their plugin NKS compatible for a long time and they keep saying they are "looking into it", that and asking them to make an AU3 version so us Mac users can use a proper Multiport setup.

I have largely relegated by KK use to a few phrase based plugins where the key mapping is sparse (Sonokinetic mainly) and trying to find they area to play triads is not obvious. But they have to be hosted in my DAW.


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## wbacer (Sep 11, 2018)

procreative said:


> No its not! The nearest I can get is that you have to select the Instance button on the keyboard and manually choose the instance. Its a bit hit and miss and sometimes you have to go into the VEP instance and click a little keyboard symbol to wake it up.
> 
> Plus both the VEP instance and Keyboard need to be on the same computer as the KK software needs to communicate with the hardware and cannot do it over a network.
> 
> ...


I have a similar set up as Jono and am also looking at purchasing the newer, soon to be released, S88 mk2.
So are you saying that if your Kontakt instances are hosted in VEPro on a slave computer that the S88 light guide will not change to reflect the instrument that's selected in Cubase? If that's the case, what's the point?
Thanks for the additional clarification.


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## Øivind (Sep 11, 2018)

i tried this setup a year ago, never got it to work.

edit: Someone correct me on this if i am wrong, but KK only support 1 instrument insert per kontakt instance (so if you have 100 kontakt instances with 16 instrument slots filled up in each, that would mean 1600 KK+kontakt instances).

So instruments with lots of articulations are your friend. Like with Spitfire instruments you can probably get away with 3 per actual instrument.
Violins 1 Legato, Violins 1 Core, Violins 1 Decorative = 3 KK and so on.

The only way i got it to work, i think, with VEpro was if i targeted the actual instrument manually in KK. I did not use a slave. I forget how it worked but it was very time consuming, and i sold my SS88 right away, was no reason to have it when my workflow and KK was never meant to be used together.


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## procreative (Sep 11, 2018)

wbacer said:


> I have a similar set up as Jono and am also looking at purchasing the newer, soon to be released, S88 mk2.
> So are you saying that if your Kontakt instances are hosted in VEPro on a slave computer that the S88 light guide will not change to reflect the instrument that's selected in Cubase? If that's the case, what's the point?
> Thanks for the additional clarification.



Correct as the hardware and Komplete Kontrol have to be on same computer. I tried everything including using the VEP virtual midi ports.

VSL say they might be working on NKS sometime, they also told me unofficially AU3 may come soon(ish) but I would not hold out based on that as it there is no timeline.

My KK keyboard largely does very little apart from a few KK instances in my DAW (I find it a RAM hog if I load too many as you cannot use Multis with it).


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## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 11, 2018)

oivind_rosvold said:


> edit: Someone correct me on this if i am wrong, but KK only support 1 instrument insert per kontakt instance



Yep^


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## wbacer (Sep 11, 2018)

Thanks everyone for your feedback. You just saved me from a big disappointing headache.


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## jononotbono (Sep 11, 2018)

And yet again, another shattered dream within the world of music.


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## wbacer (Sep 11, 2018)

Never say never, one day VEPro and or NI will update their software / hardware and this will no longer be an issue but for now...


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## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 11, 2018)

I still wouldn't rule out the S88 though, it is a sweet controller if you like the fatar keybed...I personally love it. Plus, it looks really cool when your studio lights are dimmed.


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## procreative (Sep 11, 2018)

The concept of Komplete Kontrol is good, but the reality for anything other than a small project with a handful of single instrument tracks is a bit of a non-starter.

1. No multis, so track count goes up (no stacking keyswitch or single articulation patches)
2. No ability to use Track Focus to auto update the controls (if its via a local VEP connection)
3. An extra wrapper between Kontakt and your DAW, means more memory usage

Now if NI were to at least enable Lightguide communication via just Kontakt that would be a start, but the inability to use multis is a non-starter.

By the way you can add extra Kontakt patches in a KK instance, if you switch it to edit view, but none of the controls change and if I remember right all get served by the same midi channel.


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## EvilDragon (Sep 11, 2018)

wbacer said:


> So are you saying that if your Kontakt instances are hosted in VEPro on a slave computer that the S88 light guide will not change to reflect the instrument that's selected in Cubase? If that's the case, what's the point?



Yeah that's not possible, because the keyboard needs to be connected to the same computer you're working on in order to communicate with it. Communication with the keyboard _cannot_ be done over network, so no slaving.


And actually, multis *do* work in KK, you need to click on the "+" button to get to the full Kontakt interface, then you can load a multi. Just doesn't support multiple MIDI channels as KK isn't supposed to do that.



procreative said:


> Now if NI were to at least enable Lightguide communication via just Kontakt that would be a start



That won't happen, I've explained the reason in a different thread.


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## Øivind (Sep 12, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> And actually, multis *do* work in KK, you need to click on the "+" button to get to the full Kontakt interface, then you can load a multi. Just doesn't support multiple MIDI channels as KK isn't supposed to do that.



For non VEpro steups, that at least makes UACC with Spitfire work decently with KK, for those who like 1 midi channel per instrument, like me. And if you have the time and use Cubase you can create expression maps to cover multis as well.

Sadly Cubase's save times with many Kontakt instances, even when disabled, makes it impossible to not use VEpro when running large templates. I am however warming up to the idea of using Track Presets instead of a huge template, so who knows what the future will bring
Or maybe try Reaper again...


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## jononotbono (Sep 12, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Yeah that's not possible, because the keyboard needs to be connected to the same computer you're working on in order to communicate with it. Communication with the keyboard _cannot_ be done over network, so no slaving.



Curious if you know whether this could be a possibility in the near future? Or is it just a dream?


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## EvilDragon (Sep 12, 2018)

It's a dream, because you need the driver to talk to the hardware connected directly to the computer the driver is on. Over network would be much slower and poses a host of security issues. At least that's as far as my knowledge goes.

I wonder if Vienna can code something that would send info about instances to the client plugin in case of slaving, but not sure. This is one scenario I don't think KK is well suited for.



oivind_rosvold said:


> Sadly Cubase's save times with many Kontakt instances, even when disabled, makes it impossible to not use VEpro when running large templates.



It's not just Cubase, it will happen in any host, because there's simply a lot of plugin chunk data to store in the project file once you have dozens or hundreds of Kontakt instances. Disabling instances doesn't mean plugin chunk data doesn't have to be written. It *must* be written, otherwise the next time you open that project you'd have those Kontakt instances empty!


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## jononotbono (Sep 12, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> It's a dream, because you need the driver to talk to the hardware connected directly to the computer the driver is on. Over network would be much slower and poses a host of security issues. At least that's as far as my knowledge goes.
> 
> I wonder if Vienna can code something that would send info about instances to the client plugin in case of slaving, but not sure. This is one scenario I don't think KK is well suited for.



Thanks.

It's basically made my thoughts go back to ground zero regarding buying a new 88 Weighted Controller. I guess the NI Controller would be useful for the occasional Instrument track hosted inside Cubase but considering I use most things via VEPro, the excitement has been well and truly extinguished. Shame.


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## procreative (Sep 12, 2018)

Its the most frustrating thing ever, I had high hopes for Komplete Kontrol. I even tried lots of ways of connecting it to see if I could find a way to use it with VEP:

1. Tried placing a Komplete Kontrol plugin in my DAW then placing a VEP server plugin inside it connected to a VEP instance with a Kontakt plugin inserted. No good, keyboard just showed automation numbers on controls.

2. Tried a VEP plugin connected to a VEP instance with a Komplete Kontrol plugin inserted, worked but as soon as you added more tracks in your DAW, the Komplete Kontrol keyboard no longer updated its displays or lightguide as you switched tracks.

3. Tried using the virtual midi ports in VEP to communicate.

The only way it will work is if VSL create an NKS enabled VEP plugin, but that still might not make networked communication possible. I notice the control surface plugin used by Komplete Kontrol in my DAW (Logic) is very similar to the one used by TouchOSC and transmits MIDI over USB, maybe that would need to be network aware or something (above my tech knowledge).

Komplete Kontrol feels very much like Kore, a great concept that will probably end up getting dumped and one that had huge potential. A bit like my Novation Automap device, great concept, but clunky in real world use.


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## EvilDragon (Sep 12, 2018)

Well, it doesn't seem like it will be dumped, KK is proven a lot more popular than Kore ever was, sales are going great. It's just not geared towards VEPro-centric production, unfortunately (especially via network, that's not happening ever, I don't think). However, that seems to be the minority of KK userbase. The onus is on Vienna to see if making NKS work with VEPro at least in some scenarios would be worth their while.


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## jononotbono (Sep 12, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> But you guys do know orchestral crowd is the minority?



Why would VSL care about the majority? The orchestral crowd IS their business! haha


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## EvilDragon (Sep 12, 2018)

I'm talking about NI here. Just because KK doesn't play nice with VEPro doesn't mean it will be dumped by NI.


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## jononotbono (Sep 12, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> I'm talking about NI here. Just because KK doesn't play nice with VEPro doesn't mean it will be dumped.



I know. It was just a bit of light hearted humour. Of course KK isn't being dumped. It's the biggest thing to have happened in the sample world for years. I love the idea of all this but... It just could be better... and let's hope it will become better.


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## procreative (Sep 12, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Well, it doesn't seem like it will be dumped, KK is proven a lot more popular than Kore ever was, sales are going great. It's just not geared towards VEPro-centric production, unfortunately (especially via network, that's not happening ever, I don't think). However, that seems to be the minority of KK userbase. The onus is on Vienna to see if making NKS work with VEPro at least in some scenarios would be worth their while.



Of course I get where NI's focus is mainly at. You only have to look at the majority of their "Artist" exposés or the kinds of expansions they provide for Maschine to know their main market is EDM/R&B/Rap variants.

I don't expect them to pander to our minority and I do get VSL would need to make VEP NKS compatible.

But taking the orchestral argument out, KK is still really clunky when used in a large project with many KK instances as its an extra layer eating up memory which when added up over 40-50 instances is not insignificant and I found loading a project with them in (at least on a Mac) takes longer than the equivalent Kontakt instances.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Sep 12, 2018)

procreative said:


> KK is still really clunky when used in a large project



That's one of my only gripes. Whenever I switch tracks, it goes through that little adjustment as KK sets up the lightguide, etc.


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## KerrySmith (Sep 12, 2018)

I've been using KK with and without VEP for almost 2 years now, and if you like the keyboard, it's can still pretty worthwhile. I also really like the ribbon controllers on the Mk1.

I find that I don't use the Lightguide for Articulation-Switching anymore, because I only have the 61-key version, and the Keyswitches are mapped in different places with different instruments. I programmed a bunch of art switchers in Metagrid and just use those instead. 

Where I do find the LightGuide to earn it's keep is when I am using Battery (or another compatible drum VI), which I tend to instantiate on the workstation - not the server. Being able to quickly see where the different kinds of drums are by color (because they are usually spread across the keyboard in most Battery kits) has been a HUGE timesaver. 

I also tend to throw the keyboard into "MIDI mode" when I'm not needing the KK-specific mappings, as I have the knobs routed to standard MIDI CCs (Filter Cutoff & Res, Portamento, Pan, Amp Envelope) and the octaves of the keyboard on a gradient, so I can quickly tell which octaves are displayed (since I only have 61 keys). The Scale and Arpeggiator are worth having (as Pro Tools does not have MIDI plugins) if I want to use those on a particular instrument, I can open it IN KK.

So, it can still be useful over a "vanilla" controller. You just have to let go of expectations regarding how it "should" work with VEP-server-hosted VIs.


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## procreative (Sep 12, 2018)

KerrySmith said:


> I've been using KK with and without VEP for almost 2 years now, and if you like the keyboard, it's can still pretty worthwhile. I also really like the ribbon controllers on the Mk1.
> 
> I find that I don't use the Lightguide for Articulation-Switching anymore, because I only have the 61-key version, and the Keyswitches are mapped in different places with different instruments. I programmed a bunch of art switchers in Metagrid and just use those instead.
> 
> ...



Exactly what I do, I use KK for things like Sonokinetic Grosso or Capriccio and Action Strikes where you have colour coded keys for different sounds or key changes. Then I have CCs in Midi mode mapped to the rotaries.

But I keep them to a minimum as memory gets eaten with KK. Also like you I have a Lemur app to control articulations (I use Composer Tools Pro which in combination with Osculator switches mappings on track selection).


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Sep 28, 2018)

procreative said:


> Its the most frustrating thing ever, I had high hopes for Komplete Kontrol. I even tried lots of ways of connecting it to see if I could find a way to use it with VEP:
> 
> 1. Tried placing a Komplete Kontrol plugin in my DAW then placing a VEP server plugin inside it connected to a VEP instance with a Kontakt plugin inserted. No good, keyboard just showed automation numbers on controls.
> 
> ...


Ahh yes, I myself was an AutoMap man
Such potential, sadly, never really thought through properly
So many broken versions of the software


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Sep 28, 2018)

KerrySmith said:


> I've been using KK with and without VEP for almost 2 years now, and if you like the keyboard, it's can still pretty worthwhile. I also really like the ribbon controllers on the Mk1.
> 
> I find that I don't use the Lightguide for Articulation-Switching anymore, because I only have the 61-key version, and the Keyswitches are mapped in different places with different instruments. I programmed a bunch of art switchers in Metagrid and just use those instead.
> 
> ...


Honestly, my favourite feature has to be having it mapped to control my Minimoog iOS over hardware controller mapping 

So awesome... like having the hardware


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## HarmonyCore (May 26, 2021)

Old thread but I like to comment ..!

The solution is pretty simple guys, I don't know why it's so big deal. 

My KK instances stayed inside Cubase and all other non-NKS (Kontakt instances) libraries stay in VEPro. I thought KK was a waste of cash but I am really loving it now. I can't imagine my workflow without sound previews, sound browsing, the pre-mapped parameters and the light guide. If it doesn't work with VEPro, then I just use what works with VEPro. Simple!


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 27, 2021)

HarmonyCore said:


> Old thread but I like to comment ..!
> 
> The solution is pretty simple guys, I don't know why it's so big deal.
> 
> My KK instances stayed inside Cubase and all other non-NKS (Kontakt instances) libraries stay in VEPro. I thought KK was a waste of cash but I am really loving it now. I can't imagine my workflow without sound previews, sound browsing, the pre-mapped parameters and the light guide. If it doesn't work with VEPro, then I just use what works with VEPro. Simple!


Well, that would pretty much rule out VEPro in my case. Most of my template consists of Play 6 and a lot of other libraries that use KK.


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