# Workflow from notation to DAW



## SteveStudio (Apr 22, 2022)

*Quick background:*

I've been composing at the piano with pencil and notation paper. I'm now in the process of stepping up my game by composing with notation software and then moving to a DAW to create the final version (orchestral mock-up).

I have an initial decision to make: Compose in notation software and then move it into a DAW to complete the mock-up, or compose directly via a MIDI keyboard into a DAW. Since I like to see the score in all its notation glory as I compose, I think, for me, the notation-first approach is ideal.

Initially, I plan to use Dorico 4 for notation and Cubase Pro 7 for the DAW.

*My Question about Workflow:*

I "think" I have come up with a workflow that makes sense but, as I get ready to take the plunge, *I would very much value the thoughts and any tips from my more experienced colleagues here. *Is the following approach one that should work?

First, I'll write and develop the full score in Dorico.

Second, I'll duplicate any staff that has an instrument that uses more than one type of articulation. For example, if a violin uses longs and pizzicato, I would create two identical staffs with identical notation. I would then eliminate from each duplicated staff any notation that isn't part of that staff's particular assigned articulation. Iterating through all the staves, I would then have only one articulation type per staff.

Third, I would import the score into the DAW (probably as MIDI rather than MusicXML, though I could use advice on this), where I will have a template where each instrument's articulations occupy a single MIDI track. (I like the idea of articulations being broken out by track. I know that there are plenty of opinions about using key switches and such, but this is where I plan to start.)

Is this a viable approach? Do any of you use this kind of approach?


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## waveheavy (Apr 30, 2022)

I'm still struggling with this approach myself. I prefer notation first. 

I'm trying to get used to doing a simple sketch for the initial composition, at most 3 or 4 staves of piano. I don't play piano; I believe composing seeing the staves helps me better in composition.

I'm trying to use basic harmony/melody for the sketch, then develop its complexity later. So the composition is then sent to the DAW on piano track(s). Then from that notes are chosen that make up the orchestration and copied to the instrument tracks, articulations on separate tracks. Then tweaking the performance and mixing.


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## muk (May 1, 2022)

It is a viable approach, yes. Just be aware that an import from your notation program to your DAW (be it midi or musicxml) will need *a lot of work *until it becomes a good sounding mockup. Just using sample libraries with the pure import from notation will not sound pleasing, at all. You need to enter cc1 data (velocity crossfade), micro manage tempo and timing, adjust note velocities, and on and on. All this tweaking needs a lot of time and dedication. For me, it's much quicker - and yields better results - to play in each single instrument.

The workflow for this is: have the score ready to read. In the daw, select flute 1, hit record. Play the flute 1 part from my score on my digital piano, with a tec breath controller for cc1 (you can use a fader for this if you prefer). Like this I have a 'performance' of the flute 1 part in my daw. Repeat for all the other instruments in the score. Now the note timings will not all be perfect, each instrument has its own cc1 curve. That's very important if the mockup is to approximate the sound of a real performance.

Without knowing I'd assume that the large majority of people works by playing stuff in when creating a mockup. There are some who input everything with the mouse, or import from notation and tweak from there. But it's probably a small minority. Best to try both ways and see which works for you.


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## ssnowe (May 1, 2022)

Question (curiosity, not judgement) - Why move to a DAW after Dorico as it works with VSTs and with expression maps you can make virtually any VST work natively with Dorico.

Regearding the midi or xml choice, I used to be a big fan of midi but lately I've seen xml do a much better job translating across to a DAW.


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## muk (May 2, 2022)

ssnowe said:


> Question (curiosity, not judgement) - Why move to a DAW after Dorico as it works with VSTs and with expression maps you can make virtually any VST work natively with Dorico.


Notation programs mockup capabilities are extremely limited. Like the notation capabilities of DAWs. You _can_ create a score from a DAW. But's it's tedious, and there are lots of things it can't do. Same for notation programs and mockups. It's necessary to work in a DAW if you wan't to create a serious mockup.


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## dyross (May 2, 2022)

ssnowe said:


> Question (curiosity, not judgement) - Why move to a DAW after Dorico as it works with VSTs and with expression maps you can make virtually any VST work natively with Dorico.
> 
> Regearding the midi or xml choice, I used to be a big fan of midi but lately I've seen xml do a much better job translating across to a DAW.


I have been working on a workflow with Dorico as my *only* program. The mixing / automation etc. isn't as fully featured as, say, Cubase, but it *works*.

The main problem that I'm seeing is performance. I'm observing playback issues on my first-gen M1 MBP when I have too many VSTs going at once. To remediate this, I'm only using M1 native plugins and not adding effects / mixing that I otherwise would want to.

Relatedly, AFAIK, Dorico doesn't allow you to "freeze" / "bounce" a track in place to help with this performance.

Anyway, I would much prefer to use Dorico only, but I'm starting to wonder if it's a losing battle. Though they advertise full VST support, this doesn't seem to be their primary focus.

What would be amazing is if Cubase allowed you to import a project from Dorico, preserving not just MIDI but also the VSTs.


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## JohnG (May 2, 2022)

SteveStudio said:


> Since I like to see the score in all its notation glory as I compose, I think, for me, the notation-first approach is ideal.


Hi Steve,

I'm with you; I always have the notation window open when I write. I use Digital Performer to write, then export via MusicXML to Sibelius or another notation programme.

To fit both the sequencer (on the left, in my case) and notation window (on the right), I bought a super-wide screen, that's the equivalent of two 25 inch or 27 inch screens side by side (without the intervening gap, of course).

As it happens, Digital Performer has a notation window (called "Quickscribe") that does an uncanny job of rendering what I played into notation that makes sense. Moreover, DP (as it's known) allows you to play in freely and then drag bar lines around so your performance is unchanged but the notation is still there.

If you like, reply and I can describe it in more detail. I'm an old pencil-and-paper composer as well, so I sympathise.

Kind regards,

John


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## ed buller (May 2, 2022)

Hi Steve

this is a pet project of mine too. I am happy with doing everything in Dorico . I have one stave per instruments and use pop-overs to change the articulations in my VSL vepro set up. This is basically what I'd use in a daw....but now Dorico is the Daw. I'm not going to lie to you....the setup is horrendous...but...once it's working it's wonderful

best

e


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## sinkd (May 2, 2022)

One suggestion: I would not go through making separate articulation tracks in Dorico. Since you will need to make them in Cubase anyway (for articulations that are not keyswitches) it will be faster to split out those midi regions to articulations in Cubase than to have all of those tracks in Dorico first.

DS


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## waveheavy (May 2, 2022)

muk said:


> It is a viable approach, yes. Just be aware that an import from your notation program to your DAW (be it midi or musicxml) will need *a lot of work *until it becomes a good sounding mockup. Just using sample libraries with the pure import from notation will not sound pleasing, at all. You need to enter cc1 data (velocity crossfade), micro manage tempo and timing, adjust note velocities, and on and on. All this tweaking needs a lot of time and dedication. For me, it's much quicker - and yields better results - to play in each single instrument.
> 
> The workflow for this is: have the score ready to read. In the daw, select flute 1, hit record. Play the flute 1 part from my score on my digital piano, with a tec breath controller for cc1 (you can use a fader for this if you prefer). Like this I have a 'performance' of the flute 1 part in my daw. Repeat for all the other instruments in the score. Now the note timings will not all be perfect, each instrument has its own cc1 curve. That's very important if the mockup is to approximate the sound of a real performance.
> 
> Without knowing I'd assume that the large majority of people works by playing stuff in when creating a mockup. There are some who input everything with the mouse, or import from notation and tweak from there. But it's probably a small minority. Best to try both ways and see which works for you.


Yeah, it would be nice... IF... I played piano. But I don't. I'm a guitarist, and it would take me years to learn to play, that I don't have.

I have StaffPad, so it looks like I need to get on with that, since its playback is really good.


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## waveheavy (May 7, 2022)

muk said:


> It is a viable approach, yes. Just be aware that an import from your notation program to your DAW (be it midi or musicxml) will need *a lot of work *until it becomes a good sounding mockup. Just using sample libraries with the pure import from notation will not sound pleasing, at all. You need to enter cc1 data (velocity crossfade), micro manage tempo and timing, adjust note velocities, and on and on. All this tweaking needs a lot of time and dedication. For me, it's much quicker - and yields better results - to play in each single instrument.
> 
> The workflow for this is: have the score ready to read. In the daw, select flute 1, hit record. Play the flute 1 part from my score on my digital piano, with a tec breath controller for cc1 (you can use a fader for this if you prefer). Like this I have a 'performance' of the flute 1 part in my daw. Repeat for all the other instruments in the score. Now the note timings will not all be perfect, each instrument has its own cc1 curve. That's very important if the mockup is to approximate the sound of a real performance.
> 
> Without knowing I'd assume that the large majority of people works by playing stuff in when creating a mockup. There are some who input everything with the mouse, or import from notation and tweak from there. But it's probably a small minority. Best to try both ways and see which works for you.


I know there are some pretty successful composers here on the Forum that input notes in their DAW just using the mouse, so I don't see it as any more difficult than that. Not every composer is a pianist or studied piano. I really wish I had studied piano as a kid, but I'm too old to try to practice piano to be good enough to play in what I can write. And step entry mode is used even by those like Guy Michelmore who plays piano, but admits he is bad at fast parts, so he uses Step entry mode. So single note entry with a mouse might take longer, but it is perfectly OK. But let's not pretend that a good sounding mock-up cannot be done unless one can play piano and play the parts in.


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## waveheavy (May 7, 2022)

There also is the option of composing in notation software first, and then sending that into StaffPad for playback (as MusicXML), tweaking it in StaffPad. And then send the StaffPad audio stems to your DAW, which in your DAW you can add mixing and mastering touches. StaffPad's audio is 24 bit, so it is fine for sending into a DAW to mix. This way, you could compose in your favorite notation software, then export it as a MusicXML file, and import it into StaffPad and enjoy the playback features of StaffPad.

(Some recommend fixing pops and clicks in exported StaffPad audio stems using iZotope RX. I don't know if they experienced the audio artifacts because of their computer settings, or if it can actually be attributed to StaffPad. I prefer to assume the former.)


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## muk (May 7, 2022)

waveheavy said:


> But let's not pretend that a good sounding mock-up cannot be done unless one can play piano and play the parts in.


Oh absolutely. I don't think I said so. It's perfectly possible to work in various ways. Play everything in, draw everything with the mouse, import midi/xml from a notation program... What I meant to say is that you can not simply import midi into a DAW and expect it to sound good. It needs a lot of tweaking.
By the way, you can get by with very basic piano skills for playing everything in. Playing one line of violins, or a flute, on the midi keyboard doesn't need virtuoso skill. If something is too fast, you can record it slower, or use step time input. So nothing to be afraid of. But as said, no need to do it that way either. It's best to try various workflows and see what works best for you.


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## waveheavy (May 7, 2022)

muk said:


> Oh absolutely. I don't think I said so. It's perfectly possible to work in various ways. Play everything in, draw everything with the mouse, import midi/xml from a notation program... What I meant to say is that you can not simply import midi into a DAW and expect it to sound good. It needs a lot of tweaking.
> By the way, you can get by with very basic piano skills for playing everything in. Playing one line of violins, or a flute, on the midi keyboard doesn't need virtuoso skill. If something is too fast, you can record it slower, or use step time input. So nothing to be afraid of. But as said, no need to do it that way either. It's best to try various workflows and see what works best for you.


Right. But with arthritis-prone hands like mine, playing in is kind of out. I rarely play guitar anymore because of arthritis.


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## SteveStudio (May 8, 2022)

muk said:


> By the way, you can get by with very basic piano skills for playing everything in. Playing one line of violins, or a flute, on the midi keyboard doesn't need virtuoso skill. If something is too fast, you can record it slower, or use step time input. So nothing to be afraid of.


I've been working on my piano/keyboard skills for the last couple of years. I'm not a great player, though I've made strides in developing my keyboard harmony skills which helps me in composing at the piano. You've given me encouragement that perhaps I am good enough to try this approach to entering notes into my DAW.


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## SteveStudio (May 8, 2022)

sinkd said:


> One suggestion: I would not go through making separate articulation tracks in Dorico. Since you will need to make them in Cubase anyway (for articulations that are not keyswitches) it will be faster to split out those midi regions to articulations in Cubase than to have all of those tracks in Dorico first.
> 
> DS


This sounds like sage advice. I'll strive to do it in the DAW, then.

The reason I thought to do the work of separating out the articulations in Dorico rather than the DAW is that I'm embarrassed to say that I'm still getting my sea legs with Cubase and have yet to figure out how to identify a change of articulations in a given instrumental line when working with MIDI. (I can do it by ear, of course, but is there a visual way to quickly see the articulation changes as there is, of course, in notation?) I'm going to spend some time with that, and will no doubt figure out how to do so, but if you have a tip on this, I'd value it.


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## sinkd (May 8, 2022)

SteveStudio said:


> This sounds like sage advice. I'll strive to do it in the DAW, then.
> 
> The reason I thought to do the work of separating out the articulations in Dorico rather than the DAW is that I'm embarrassed to say that I'm still getting my sea legs with Cubase and have yet to figure out how to identify a change of articulations in a given instrumental line when working with MIDI. (I can do it by ear, of course, but is there a visual way to quickly see the articulation changes as there is, of course, in notation?) I'm going to spend some time with that, and will no doubt figure out how to do so, but if you have a tip on this, I'd value it.


OK. I need to know a little more about the libraries you are using. If there are a lot of keyswitch patches, etc. It may be that you should invest your time in customizing articulations, expression maps, and endpoint configurations in Dorico (that can trigger the various articulations from single staves in your score) rather than spending that time in Cubase.


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## SteveStudio (May 9, 2022)

sinkd said:


> OK. I need to know a little more about the libraries you are using. If there are a lot of keyswitch patches, etc. It may be that you should invest your time in customizing articulations, expression maps, and endpoint configurations in Dorico (that can trigger the various articulations from single staves in your score) rather than spending that time in Cubase.


My thinking is to just use NotePerformer in Dorico. Though I have BBCSO Pro and a template that I found on the Spitfire site for that, I see no reason to use BBCSO in Dorico if I'm going to then move it to Cubase where I can then use BBCSO, etc. 

Is this what you're wondering? Thoughts?


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## waveheavy (May 9, 2022)

If I could... play piano, I'd still write in notation software first, and then print that off and read while playing the individual parts into the DAW.

Some library patches are 'performance' patches, like with Cinesamples and Spitfire. I wish they all were, but only certain ones are, because they are based on 'how' you play. Play fast and they trigger staccato patches. Play slow and they trigger Legato patches, etc. So with Performance patches, there's no need for multiple track articulations, expression maps, nor MIDI editing for articulation parts.


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## sinkd (May 9, 2022)

SteveStudio said:


> My thinking is to just use NotePerformer in Dorico. Though I have BBCSO Pro and a template that I found on the Spitfire site for that, I see no reason to use BBCSO in Dorico if I'm going to then move it to Cubase where I can then use BBCSO, etc.
> 
> Is this what you're wondering? Thoughts?


This sounds like a good workflow. No "sequence level" editing in Dorico, but you still get to hear a pretty amazing NP rendition. Then export to Cubase where you either split things out to individual tracks, or use articulation mapping to finalize the mockup.

One caveat: NP exports a lot of its own MIDI channel control stuff (several CCs). You might switch to a more generic playback template before exporting MIDI from Dorico.


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## Gil (May 10, 2022)

Hello,

Perhaps one thing you can do when you're ok with the NotePerformer rendition in Dorico is to apply the BBC SO (Discover/Core/Pro) playback template to your score in Dorico (to already have good BBC SO articulations), and then export to the DAW where you'll have (almost ) only to re-record CCs.

If you experience that workflow, I'll be curious to know if it works correctly 

Thanks!
Regards,
Gil.


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## SteveStudio (May 10, 2022)

sinkd said:


> This sounds like a good workflow. No "sequence level" editing in Dorico, but you still get to hear a pretty amazing NP rendition. Then export to Cubase where you either split things out to individual tracks, or use articulation mapping to finalize the mockup.


Thank you for confirming that this is a viable place to start -- as I get my sea legs, no doubt I'll enjoy trying different approaches. 



> One caveat: NP exports a lot of its own MIDI channel control stuff (several CCs). You might switch to a more generic playback template before exporting MIDI from Dorico.


That's really helpful. I wouldn't have thought of that. I'll be sure to do that. I wonder, though: is there any reason, then, not to also consider exporting to MusicXML from Dorico and import into Cubase? I'm assuming that MusicXML would not capture any MIDI data.


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## SteveStudio (May 10, 2022)

Gil said:


> Perhaps one thing you can do when you're ok with the NotePerformer rendition in Dorico is to apply the BBC SO (Discover/Core/Pro) playback template to your score in Dorico (to already have good BBC SO articulations), and then export to the DAW where you'll have (almost ) only to re-record CCs.


You know, great minds think alike.  Though using NotePerformer seems a good choice for me to get started, I am drawn to the idea of using BBC SO Pro (which I have) with Dorico. Knowing me, I'll probably host the library in Vienna Ensemble Pro on the local machine initially and just use the Dorico BBC SO Pro template provided through Spitfire. Eventually, as I acquire other libraries, I just might follow the trail blazed by @ed buller and set up my own Dorico template, drawing from favorite articulations from each library.

But right now, I desperately need to get back to writing music. (I've spent too much time on the technology, even to the point of rebuilding my PC, not to mention leaning Dorico, Cubase, and VEPro.) The NotePerformer route lets me do that.


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## Gil (May 10, 2022)

@SteveStudio if it can help, I made a tutorial for using VEPro with BBC SO in Dorico here.


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## SteveStudio (May 10, 2022)

Gil said:


> @SteveStudio if it can help, I made a tutorial for using VEPro with BBC SO in Dorico here.


Gil, thank you for showing how you set this up. I've made a VEPro template for BBC SO and Cubase and was wondering how to go about it with Dorico. This is very helpful!


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## NuNativs (May 10, 2022)

muk said:


> Like the notation capabilities of DAWs. You _can_ create a score from a DAW. But's it's tedious, and there are lots of things it can't do.


There's always Step Entry in the notation side of things of say Cubase. At least entering in Velocity but still being able to see the Notation is pretty fast. I personally can't comprehend how people compose by writing in each note rather than play A LOT of it in.


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## Allure (Jun 12, 2022)

> *Quick background:*
> I've been composing at the piano with pencil and notation paper. I'm now in the process of stepping up my game by composing with notation software and then moving to a DAW to create the final version (orchestral mock-up).
> I have an initial decision to make: Compose in notation software and then move it into a DAW to complete the mock-up, or compose directly via a MIDI keyboard into a DAW. Since I like to see the score in all its notation glory as I compose, I think, for me, the notation-first approach is ideal.


I am a person who constantly looks at new technologies but the "reason why" of my life is music.
I studied music and this is my starting and ending point.

I begin in Sibelius with a score of the "picture" of what happens. Then I export it as a .MIDIfile.
Reopen it in Digital Performer or other DAW to add/delete or "polish" things. When it is done, I save it as .MIDIfile and reopen in Sibelius.
At this point you have a great demo (how great it's up to your needs) and a finished score!

It seems like a long process but it is extremely reliable, it forces you to double, triple the controls; when you work under pressure (clients, studio, conductor and all the people waiting for your score: bytheway... they all ask you if you have a demo!) where the main thing, music aside, is "no error".

At the end of the day I've saved quality, time and money.

This is just my "one penny" to add: this workflow is good for me, but I'm always open to all differents opinions.


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