# Best library for me?! (Intermediate)



## gamersensual14

Hi everyone! Just discovered this forum and I'm finding it very useful! This is my first post ever! 

I'm not a complete newbie in music, but not a professional either. I just started with orchestra composition (through the Evenant course CM1) and I want some guide on what libraries to buy, so *here are my needs*:

* I want to make cinematic music, *both* super aggressive and soft (like "themes", for example).
* I'm not necessarily looking for a film / movie sound, but I don't dislike it at all, so it's also valid.
* I would like to add some strong / "hybrid" / heavy percussion and FX like braams, pads, drones, etc (*from time to time, not always!*).
* I want as few libraries as possible, *all-in-one would be great*, but maybe for the braams, perc, FX, etc I may pick different libraries, *1 or 2 more maximum* (I can't break the bank...)!
* I want a clear sound, I'm not looking for the most realistic library ever but I wouldn't like it to sound robotic either, just *modern and with high quality samples* that can be used to create standard professional-grade tracks.
* Only libraries that work with the *free Kontakt player*. I don't know about you guys, but I won't pay $400 for Kontakt. And also I really like to see how many developers make their plugins compatible with the free player, as that costs them a fee for every sale I believe; for that reason too I want to support them.
* I need *all the sections*. So for example I wouldn't buy two libraries, the first with strings and the second with brass. I also need the woodwinds and perc and everything!
* I would like it to have each instrument group separately (Violins, Violas, Horns, Flutes, etc). If it *really* is worth it I would consider buying an ensemble-based library.

And I believe that is all. I tried to be as specific as possible as I know there're a lot of knowledgeable people here so I just tried to make everyone's life easier.

I look forward to your replies, thank you a lot!! 

Edit 1: Hi there! If you are only interested in "seeing the results" of this thread, here is the first summary -> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/best-library-for-me-intermediate.104966/post-4754616

Edit 2: In case you're not interested in all the super useful information contained in the thread, you can just skip to the conclusion! -> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/best-library-for-me-intermediate.104966/post-4757011


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## Bluemount Score

Hey there and welcome to VI-Control.
Not so many libraries out there that exactly fit all of your versatile needs. Spitfire Albion ONE (section based orchestra) and Audio Imperia Jaeger / Nucleus comes to mind at a fair price and for Kontakt Player.
No library is perfect and does it _all_ right


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## janwilke

gamersensual14 said:


> * I want to make cinematic music, *both* super aggressive and soft (like "themes", for example).
> * I'm not necessarily looking for a film / movie sound, but I don't dislike it at all, so it's also valid.


That seems to be a contradiction?

Albion One seems to be a good option. It does have only ensemble patches, however. BBCSO Core is very good value if you don't want ensemble patches, but it doesn't get super aggressive and you would need something else for synth/heavy perc.


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## daan1412

It's a tall order to find one or two libraries that cover everything. From what you describe, Jaeger and Nucelus combo seems like something that could suit your needs. I think Albion One is too soft for this kind of modern, super heavy, hybrid sound.


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## mybadmemory

I can't think of any one library that meets all of those needs. The combo I can think of that fits best would be Nucleus + Jaeger I think. Those two are much closer to what you describe than Albion imo.


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## Trash Panda

If you don't need woodwinds, Audio Imperia Jaeger is just what you need. Can be supplemented with Damage 2 for epic drums, or if you can catch a good sale or bundle, add Audio Imperia's Cerberus (don't pay full price for that one).

You can supplement the above with Talos brass if you need more brass power and articulations.

All of Audio Imperia's libraries come with lots of sound design options, but you can also add their Legacy library to further enhance that aspect.


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## gamersensual14

Hey everyone, wow you're *fast*! I was not expecting so many answers in such a short time!



janwilke said:


> That seems to be a contradiction?


I don't know what you are referring to. With the second point I meant that I'm not exclusively looking for a traditional film-scoring sound (I know Spitfire Audio is known for that), but if a library that has that sound is the one that best fits my needs, I have no problem at all with it!

Nucleus and Jaeger seem to be the ones you are recommending the most, but why both? I believe they share strings and brass samples right? If that's the case, *why is Jaeger worth it* (as I looked at Nucleus and saw that it has the complete orchestra)?



janwilke said:


> BBCSO Core is very good value if you don't want ensemble patches, but it doesn't get super aggressive and you would need something else for synth/heavy perc.


I may have exagerated a little bit with the "super aggresive", I'm not looking for Metropolis Ark 1 jajaja sorry, my bad.

(Note: I know I'm asking for a lot, but I really like vocal patches like choir, solo vocals, etc. It would be great to have those!)


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## Bluemount Score

gamersensual14 said:


> (Note: I know I'm asking for a lot, but I really like vocal patches like choir, solo vocals, etc. It would be great to have those!)


You say it, sadly it's indeed a lot you are asking for in a single product. BBCSO has no vocals / choir. Albion ONE doesn't either. There is a great solo vocal in Audio Imperia Jaeger but as said before, no woodwinds. It's a tough one, there will be shortcuts no matter what.


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## gamersensual14

Bluemount Score said:


> You say it, sadly it's indeed a lot you are asking for in a single product. BBCSO has no vocals / choir. Albion ONE doesn't either. There is a great solo vocal in Audio Imperia Jaeger but as said before, no woodwinds. It's a tough one, there will be shortcuts no matter what.


Yep I know I'm asking for a lot, but remember I first said that I wouldn't mind if I had to buy two libraries you know? 3? Well... if there's no other option and they blend well toguether... it's OK (just have to wait for some sale!).

Thanks for all the advice until this moment everyone!


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## janwilke

gamersensual14 said:


> Hey everyone, wow you're *fast*! I was not expecting so many answers in such a short time!
> 
> 
> I don't know what you are referring to. With the second point I meant that I'm not exclusively looking for a traditional film-scoring sound (I know Spitfire Audio is known for that), but if a library that has that sound is the one that best fits my needs, I have no problem at all with it!


Well, you said you wanted to write cinematic music, but then you said you are not necessarily looking for a film / movie sound. I have difficulty understanding what cinematic music without a film sound would actually sound like?


gamersensual14 said:


> (Note: I know I'm asking for a lot, but I really like vocal patches like choir, solo vocals, etc. It would be great to have those!)


I don't have Jaeger or Nucleus and am too lazy to look it up right now - if I remember correctly, Jaeger has choir and solo vocals, Nucleus does not?

Anyway, it sounds like you are looking for a library that can do everything. Such a thing doesn't exist, which is why people keep buying libraries.


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## Bluemount Score

gamersensual14 said:


> Yep I know I'm asking for a lot, but remember I first said that I wouldn't mind if I had to buy two libraries you know? 3? Well... if there's no other option and they blend well toguether... it's OK (just have to wait for some sale!).
> 
> Thanks for all the advice until this moment everyone!


I see. For a cheap and very fair priced choir library check out Strezov Sampling Choir Essentials, which is for Kontakt Player, has lots of great content for $99 and was just released yesterday I think. Great addition if you decide to get something without any human voice as your main orchestral library


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## yiph2

There probably is no such library that can do soft, epic but all in ones. Most libraries that can do that are bought separately (Strings, WW etc). Also choir is pretty rare in an orhcestral library, the only one I can think of is Nucleus (no solos tho)


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## janwilke

gamersensual14 said:


> I may have exagerated a little bit with the "super aggresive", I'm not looking for Metropolis Ark 1 jajaja sorry, my bad.


Actually, Metropolis Ark 1 + 2 might be another option? Ensemble patches, but should tick most of your boxes otherwise? Rather expensive, but there is a bundle price and maybe you qualify for an education discount?


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## Rory

If you're prepared to use a free player other than the free Kontakt player, I'd suggest that you start by downloading Spitfire Audio's free player and its BBC Symphony Orchestra, Discover version: https://www.spitfireaudio.com/bbcso/

Discover is US$49, or free if you are prepared to answer some survey questions (there's nothing insidious about the questions) and wait for 14 days.

The BBC SO libraries (Discover, Core and Pro) have free templates for all the major DAWS: https://www.spitfireaudiothepage.com/templates

You could check out Spitfire's free LABS libraries while you're at it: https://www.spitfireaudio.com/bbcso/

There are many examples on YouTube of Discover being used, such as this video by Guy Michelmore:





In this video, Royal College of Music Masters student Dan Keen uses Discover to write music in real time:


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## Trash Panda

gamersensual14 said:


> Nucleus and Jaeger seem to be the ones you are recommending the most, but why both? I believe they share strings and brass samples right? If that's the case, *why is Jaeger worth it* (as I looked at Nucleus and saw that it has the complete orchestra)?


Here's some helpful breakdowns:





Explaining Audio Imperia's Libraries & Overlapping Content


A PSA for customers who suffer from TLDR.




vi-control.net


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## Rory

Rory said:


> If you're prepared to use a free player other than the free Kontakt player, I'd suggest that you start by downloading Spitfire Audio's free player and its BBC Symphony Orchestra, Discover version: https://www.spitfireaudio.com/bbcso/
> 
> Discover is US$49, or free if you are prepared to answer some survey questions (there's nothing insidious about the questions) and wait for 14 days.
> 
> The BBC SO libraries (Discover, Core and Pro) have free templates for all the major DAWS: https://www.spitfireaudiothepage.com/templates
> 
> You could check out Spitfire's free LABS libraries while you're at it: https://www.spitfireaudio.com/bbcso/
> 
> There are many examples on YouTube of Discover being used, such as this video by Guy Michelmore:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In this video, Royal College of Music Masters student Dan Keen uses Discover to write music in real time:




The screen capture below shows that the three versions of BBC SO were 40% off over Christmas. In the case of BBC SO Core, the price was US$269 rather than $449. It's a good bet that this price will return sometime around late April.


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## yiph2

Rory said:


> The screen capture below shows that the three versions of BBC SO were 40% off over Christmas. In the case of BBC SO Core, the price was US$269 rather than $449. It's a good bet that this price will return sometime around late April/May.


Discover gets you $50 off, so the actual price would be $220


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## Rory

yiph2 said:


> Discover gets you $50 off, so the actual price would be $220


Yes, I forgot that Discover gets you a credit of $49 on the purchase of Core. This holds even if you get Discover for free. Consequently, for people who have Discover, paid or free, the full retail, non-discounted price of Core is $400, not $449.


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## Geomir

Since all the popular choices are already mentioned in this thread, I will suggest something else: You may want to check Iconica Sections and Players, a premium library from Steinberg, which was entirely recorded in Fankhaus Berlin by Orchestral Tools. During the last sale its price was 399 EUR, and I consider it one of the best valus-for-money purchases I have ever made. Some basic points:

- It runs on the free Halion Sonic SE 3 Player, which I consider among the 3 best I have ever used (the other 2 are Synchron Player and Kontakt Player)
- It weights 145GB and has all the 4 sections of the orchestra
- It has a natural orchestral sound, and it is very balanced out of the box
- The recording stage is perfect for me (not very dry, not very wet)
- Every instrument and section has several mic position to choose and mix as you like
- It can do from reasonably soft up to reasonably aggressive
- Since... very recently... it requires only a soft eLicenser (so you don't need a USB-dongle)
- If you don't need it in the future, you are allowed to resell it
- And the best: You can try it for one month for free!

Here are some impressive demos for each one of the 4 orchestral sections:

Strings (plus Harp)
Brass
Woodwinds
Percussion
But enough words! You can check the demos or try it for free yourself (if you have the patience to download 145GB of course)!


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## Rory

Geomir said:


> Since all the popular choices are already mentioned in this thread, I will suggest something else: You may want to check Iconica Sections and Players... During the last sale its price was 399 EUR


That sale price is just under US$500. Which version of this library are you talking about? Any idea of when it's likely to go on sale again? The non-sale price of Iconica Opus is US$1000. Iconica Players and Sections is $800.


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## gamersensual14

Hi!



Bluemount Score said:


> I see. For a cheap and very fair priced choir library check out Strezov Sampling Choir Essentials, which is for Kontakt Player, has lots of great content for $99 and was just released yesterday I think. Great addition if you decide to get something without any human voice as your main orchestral library


Thank you for the recommendation, the demos sound amazing.



janwilke said:


> Actually, Metropolis Ark 1 + 2 might be another option? Ensemble patches, but should tick most of your boxes otherwise? Rather expensive, but there is a bundle price and maybe you qualify for an education discount?


That is actually interesting, it's important not to forget about the education discounts!



Rory said:


> If you're prepared to use a free player other than the free Kontakt player, I'd suggest that you start by downloading Spitfire Audio's free player and its BBC Symphony Orchestra, Discover version


I already got BBC SO Discover jajaja, the question is if BBC SO Core would fit the needs, from what I've seen, the people that use it tend to be classical composers who want the most realism in their sound.



Trash Panda said:


> Here's some helpful breakdowns


Thank you! But that only gave me a bad image about Audio Imperia I mean... using the same samples in different plugins and not saying it is... ehm... wrong... In the case I go with AI, I would probably pick Nucleus (since I need all the sections) and don't buy any other plugin, as I would be buying the same samples, which I find kind of stupid. What do you think?



yiph2 said:


> Discover gets you $50 off, so the actual price would be $220





Rory said:


> Yes, I forgot that Discover gets you a credit of $49 on the purchase of Core. This holds even if you get Discover for free. Consequently, for people who have Discover, paid or free, the full retail, non-discounted price of Core is $400, not $449.


That is something worth mentioning, thank you for pointing that! Getting a complete high quality orchestra for $220 is an absolute deal.



Geomir said:


> Since all the popular choices are already mentioned in this thread, I will suggest something else: You may want to check Iconica Sections and Players, a premium library from Steinberg, which was entirely recorded in Fankhaus Berlin by Orchestral Tools.


Wow I didn't know about that one! I heard the videos you attached and I really like it's sound! I'll do more research on it!



Geomir said:


> - If you don't need it in the future, you are allowed to resell it
> - And the best: You can try it for one month for free!


OK these two are really impressive!! I'll try it for sure!

Thanks everyone! If anyone wants to add more options or opinions you are very welcome to do so!

If not, I'll make a poll or something like that in a couple days so we can all directly and clearly put down the pros and cons of each of the "finalist" libraries, so everyone can come to this thread and see it anytime.


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## Trash Panda

gamersensual14 said:


> Thank you! But that only gave me a bad image about Audio Imperia I mean... using the same samples in different plugins and not saying it is... ehm... wrong... In the case I go with AI, I would probably pick Nucleus (since I need all the sections) and don't buy any other plugin, as I would be buying the same samples, which I find kind of stupid. What do you think?


They’re pretty transparent about it here on VIC and give you a crossgrade discount on products with overlapping samples. I’m a self admitting fanboi of AI for whatever that’s worth. 

It also helps to know the history - Jaeger was their first orchestral library, so they took select pieces of it (strings, brass, atonal percussion) and combined that with new recordings for woodwinds, choir and tonal percussion to create Nucleus.

At some point they created Talos for even more epic brass, and added some basic techniques from the 12 horns and low brass ensemble to Jaeger as a free update and included the basic techniques from the low brass in Nucleus.

Later when they created Areia as a dedicated string library, they reused some samples from Jaeger and gave Nucleus/Jaeger owners a discount as a result.

Sure, it’s confusing, but I don’t see it as malicious or greed driven.

@audioimperia feel free to correct me if any of the above is wrong. Also, when do I start getting NFR copies for all the free marketing?


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## daan1412

gamersensual14 said:


> I already got BBC SO Discover jajaja, the question is if BBC SO Core would fit the needs, from what I've seen, the people that use it tend to be classical composers who want the most realism in their sound.


I love BBCSO Core, it's a wonderful library, but it won't get you anywhere near that modern, hybrid sound. I don't think it should be your primary purchase based on what you're interested in. Nucleus seems like a better fit.


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## Sarah Mancuso

gamersensual14 said:


> Only libraries that work with the *free Kontakt player*. I don't know about you guys, but I won't pay $400 for Kontakt.


Just FYI, you can get full Kontakt for $125 via a crossgrade from any Kontakt Player library (including free ones) during one of NI's twice-yearly sales. I wouldn't pay $400 for it, either.


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## mallux

I went the BBCSO Discover->Core->Pro route, but I have another suggestion if you aren’t really sure what you’re looking for but just want to try lots of things before committing... write off $30 and get a month of EastWest Composer Cloud, it’s like an all-you-can-eat buffet of sample libraries.

Cancelled mine as planned after one month, having downloaded and tried pretty much everything on offer. 

Helped me make some decisions about where to spend the real money... turns out I don’t have the patience for vocal libraries and word builders after all... and orchestral ensemble patches just feel like cheating...


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## Geomir

Rory said:


> That sale price is just under US$500. Which version of this library are you talking about? Any idea of when it's likely to go on sale again? The non-sale price of Iconica Opus is US$1000. Iconica Players and Sections is $800.


I was talking specifically about Sections and Players, which as you said costs $800, or $400 during a 50% sale. OPUS adds Iconica Ensembles, which is optional, especially if you don't care about full strings / full brass / full woodwinds patches. It can make your life easier, but it's not really needed.  

Very hard to guess about the next big sale. Steinberg rarely has such sales. But you never know. I.e. this Black Friday / Christmas everything went totally crazy! Spitfire storewide sales (you could get BBCSO Core or Pro for a fraction of the full price, since even if you didn't pay for Discover, you had an extra $50 sale just because you own it!), EW with the permanent 60%, for the first time Orchestral Tools Berlin Series with 50% sales, Cinesamples followed with 50% storewide (!) and then 60% to all the bundles sale (!!!), Best Service sales to almost everything, VSL coupons 3+1 PLUS various sales, Sonuscore, Heavyocity, etc., etc., etc...

Well... even Steinberg had to follow this craziness, since the main complain about Iconica was its high list price (other than the lack of promotion, advertisement, presentation and support of course)!

Well, let's hope crazy sales like the above mentioned ones will happen more and more often!


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## Justin L. Franks

Spitfire Abbey Road One + Heavyocity Damage 2, and Strezov Choir Essentials if you want/need choir.


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## gamersensual14

Hey everyone,



Trash Panda said:


> They’re pretty transparent about it here on VIC and give you a crossgrade discount on products with overlapping samples. I’m a self admitting fanboi of AI for whatever that’s worth.


Well I've never bought anything from Audio Imperia other than the freebies so I don't know if when buying a new library they tell you that some samples are the same and give a discount even if you didn't know it in the first place and because of that didn't ask for it.



daan1412 said:


> I love BBCSO Core, it's a wonderful library, but it won't get you anywhere near that modern, hybrid sound. I don't think it should be your primary purchase based on what you're interested in. Nucleus seems like a better fit.


Thank you a lot, this makes things more clear to me.



Sarah Mancuso said:


> Just FYI, you can get full Kontakt for $125 via a crossgrade from any Kontakt Player library (including free ones) during one of NI's twice-yearly sales. I wouldn't pay $400 for it, either.


Woah! Thank you Sarah jajaja didn't know that! Still, I want libraries that are compatible with the free player, even though I may buy Kontakt in the future now that I know that.



mallux said:


> I went the BBCSO Discover->Core->Pro route, but I have another suggestion if you aren’t really sure what you’re looking for but just want to try lots of things before committing... write off $30 and get a month of EastWest Composer Cloud, it’s like an all-you-can-eat buffet of sample libraries.


That is very interesting, I did a little bit of research and I think I found the list of instruments included in the "buffet", but sadly none of the plugins I've been recommended are in there, *I don't see any Spitfire plugin, nor AI, nor Metropolis Ark, etc*. I think I saw *Hollywood Strings and Brass*, etc, anyone has those? If so, what is your opinion?



Justin L. Franks said:


> Spitfire Abbey Road One + Heavyocity Damage 2, and Strezov Choir Essentials if you want/need choir.


This is a good one! I was like "omg Justin just got me covered"! But then I realized that Abbey Road only has ensembles, like only two ensembles for group...
Even though it sounds great and it sure can sound both powerful and soft, I've watched some videos of Guy Michelmore and Christian Henson and they both say that *this library is great if you are a piano player and want to improvise on it*. I'm not a piano player so I think *I'll stick with plugins that not only contain ensembles*.


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## mallux

gamersensual14 said:


> That is very interesting, I did a little bit of research and I think I found the list of instruments included in the "buffet", but sadly none of the plugins I've been recommended are in there, *I don't see any Spitfire plugin, nor AI, nor Metropolis Ark, etc*. I think I saw *Hollywood Strings and Brass*, etc, anyone has those? If so, what is your opinion?


Yeah it's EW libraries only, so it won't help in that respect (unless you were considering EW products anyway). Sounds like you have a pretty good idea of what you want already, but it helped me to prioritize what _types_ of instrument I was most interested in, before splashing the cash. YMMV.


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## Justin L. Franks

gamersensual14 said:


> This is a good one! I was like "omg Justin just got me covered"! But then I realized that Abbey Road only has ensembles, like only two ensembles for group...
> Even though it sounds great and it sure can sound both powerful and soft, I've watched some videos of Guy Michelmore and Christian Henson and they both say that *this library is great if you are a piano player and want to improvise on it*. I'm not a piano player so I think *I'll stick with plugins that not only contain ensembles*.


You did say that you would consider ensemble libraries, which is why I made that suggestion. While you don't get the individual sections, being split into high and low ensembles for strings and woodwinds, and individual sections for trumpets and horns, does still give a good amount of flexibility and control.

Regarding it being great for piano players, these statements don't mean it is less suitable for non-pianists, just that as a (mostly) ensemble library, it offers some extra functionality if you are able to play complex passages with both hands simultaneously.

If you have decided to forgo ensemble libraries completely, then my alternate suggestion would be Metropolis Ark 1 + 2. If you can wait until it goes on sale again (a quick search shows that bundle has been as low as $500), then it will take away some of the hit to your wallet. You didn't mention an absolute budget, but did say that you weren't planning on spending a huge amount; I'm not sure if €839 is too much for you.


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## gamersensual14

Justin L. Franks said:


> You did say that you would consider ensemble libraries, which is why I made that suggestion. While you don't get the individual sections, being split into high and low ensembles for strings and woodwinds, and individual sections for trumpets and horns, does still give a good amount of flexibility and control.
> 
> Regarding it being great for piano players, these statements don't mean it is less suitable for non-pianists, just that as a (mostly) ensemble library, it offers some extra functionality if you are able to play complex passages with both hands simultaneously.
> 
> If you have decided to forgo ensemble libraries completely, then my alternate suggestion would be Metropolis Ark 1 + 2. If you can wait until it goes on sale again (a quick search shows that bundle has been as low as $500), then it will take away some of the hit to your wallet. You didn't mention an absolute budget, but did say that you weren't planning on spending a huge amount; I'm not sure if €839 is too much for you.


Hey Justin, thanks again for another recommendation.

Yes, I know the library is still useful but I feel like I'll probably have moments like "I want the cellos to do that and then the violas to join!", but then the violas are also playing since the beginning because the instruments share the range I'm using, I don't like that. Isn't that a common situation for people that use ensemble libraries?

As I see that almost every Spitfire Audio, AI, and most of the libraries I'm getting recommended cost around 450$ each (less with sales), I think my budget is around there, maybe 500$ or 600$ because of an extra library for choirs or precussion. 839€ is too much, yeah...

What do you think about the Jaeger + Nucleus combo?


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## Laurin Lenschow

Jaeger and Nucleus are both great libraries that give you control over the individual sections and have the modern tone you are looking for.
Considering you want "the cellos to do that and then the violas to join" the combination of Ark 1 and 2 might not be exactly for you, as Ark 1 only has a High Strings and a Low Strings Ensemble and Ark 2 comes with three (High, Mid and Low) of them. That said this only applies to the strings, every other instrument is controllable on its own. 
If you have any specific questions about Nucleus + Jaeger and/or Ark 1+2 I might be able to answer them as I have all of them


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## darthdeus

Trash Panda said:


> Later when they created Areia as a dedicated string library, they reused some samples from Jaeger and gave Nucleus/Jaeger owners a discount as a result.


One big downside I see of reusing the samples between Nucleus and Jaeger is that it's sometimes confusing and annoying to just work with both at once, even though they overlap. Often times I load something in Nucleus only to realize "oh wait, this instrument has the full articulations in Jaeger, so I gotta load that instead".

I really wish they made a package for people who own both that was just one library that contained everything. It's like with plugging in USBs, even though the chance to get it right is 50%, every time you get it wrong is annoying, and boy I can't count how many times I loaded strings from the other library.



gamersensual14 said:


> Hi everyone! Just discovered this forum and I'm finding it very useful! This is my first post ever!
> 
> I'm not a complete newbie in music, but not a professional either. I just started with orchestra composition (through the Evenant course CM1) and I want some guide on what libraries to buy, so *here are my needs*:
> 
> * I want to make cinematic music, *both* super aggressive and soft (like "themes", for example).
> * I'm not necessarily looking for a film / movie sound, but I don't dislike it at all, so it's also valid.
> * I would like to add some strong / "hybrid" / heavy percussion and FX like braams, pads, drones, etc (*from time to time, not always!*).
> * I want as few libraries as possible, *all-in-one would be great*, but maybe for the braams, perc, FX, etc I may pick different libraries, *1 or 2 more maximum* (I can't break the bank...)!
> * I want a clear sound, I'm not looking for the most realistic library ever but I wouldn't like it to sound robotic either, just *modern and with high quality samples* that can be used to create standard professional-grade tracks.
> * Only libraries that work with the *free Kontakt player*. I don't know about you guys, but I won't pay $400 for Kontakt. And also I really like to see how many developers make their plugins compatible with the free player, as that costs them a fee for every sale I believe; for that reason too I want to support them.
> * I need *all the sections*. So for example I wouldn't buy two libraries, the first with strings and the second with brass. I also need the woodwinds and perc and everything!
> * I would like it to have each instrument group separately (Violins, Violas, Horns, Flutes, etc). If it *really* is worth it I would consider buying an ensemble-based library.
> 
> And I believe that is all. I tried to be as specific as possible as I know there're a lot of knowledgeable people here so I just tried to make everyone's life easier.
> 
> I look forward to your replies, thank you a lot!!


Having been in almost exactly the same boat some months ago I want to share some thoughts. Firstly, Jaeger does have a lot of FX that you might in theory want - pads/drones/braams/hits, and they + the solo Merethe patch were one of the reasons I did the crossgrade (for $200 with a discount) from Nucleus.

I thought "I could just use these and wouldn't have to make my own" ... but the thing is, there's about braams, and I only like one of them somewhat. Similarly with hits. Maybe I'm just too picky, but at this point I've reached into the Jaeger FX section many times over, and they just don't have the sound I'd want.

Looking back, I'm thinking what I really wanted all along was Metropolis Ark 1, but "it was more expensive and less value", so I ended up getting Nucleus + Jaeger instead, and now I'm still looking at Metropolis.

One more thing to note about Jaeger/Nucleus since it's just on the top of my head is that some patches, e.g. Celli, have a harsh attack compared to e.g. BBCSO even at lower dynamics.

My tip would be to start with BBCSO Discover since it's free, and play around with it until you hit limits and find out you want something specific that's not there and look for that. I definitely didn't follow this advice myself and ended up buying a ton of libraries I don't use now, because they seemed like a good choice based on other's reviews, even though I couldn't justify them with my own need. There's so many things to consider when getting a sample library it's very hard to make comparisons unless you have at least some idea of what the ones you've used are missing.

Also since you mention wanting each group separately, try downloading some of the free orchestral libraries that have split patches, and try to work with separate sections if you haven't already. Otherwise you mind find yourself buying a very detailed "programming-friendly" library while what you really wanted was a "big hands big chords ez sketching" instead.


----------



## Robo Rivard

You seem like the perfect candidate for an EastWest Composer Cloud subscription!


----------



## Justin L. Franks

gamersensual14 said:


> Hey Justin, thanks again for another recommendation.
> 
> Yes, I know the library is still useful but I feel like I'll probably have moments like "I want the cellos to do that and then the violas to join!", but then the violas are also playing since the beginning because the instruments share the range I'm using, I don't like that. Isn't that a common situation for people that use ensemble libraries?
> 
> As I see that almost every Spitfire Audio, AI, and most of the libraries I'm getting recommended cost around 450$ each (less with sales), I think my budget is around there, maybe 500$ or 600$ because of an extra library for choirs or precussion. 839€ is too much, yeah...
> 
> What do you think about the Jaeger + Nucleus combo?


I don't have any experience with Nucleus or Jaeger, so I can't comment much, other than that they are both very well-respected libraries. The combination should serve you well. Nucleus is a bit light on articulations, but Jaeger will help fill in those gaps. At least it will for the strings and brass, because Jaeger doesn't have any woodwinds.

Apparently there is a crossgrade offer between Nucleus and Jaeger, but I could not find any official mention of this on AI's website. So if you do decide to go this route, I would contact AI to see about this before you purchase.

But after thinking some more, if you want to get the most bang for your buck, then BBCSO Core is definitely an option. Some other people in this thread have pushed you away from it because you also want to be able to go more towards the "epic" side of things. And they are correct in that BBCSO isn't particularly designed for that. But that doesn't mean it can't do it at all.

The breadth of articulations in BBCSO Core is completely unrivaled in its price range. When it goes on sale for 40% off, and including the crossgrade discount from Discover (which still applies even if you got Discover for free by completing the survey), Core costs only $220. Even outside of a sale, it is only $400, which is incredible for what you get.


----------



## Laurin Lenschow

darthdeus said:


> One big downside I see of reusing the samples between Nucleus and Jaeger is that it's sometimes confusing and annoying to just work with both at once, even though they overlap. Often times I load something in Nucleus only to realize "oh wait, this instrument has the full articulations in Jaeger, so I gotta load that instead".


I personally don't have much of an issue with that. Use the strings, brass, solo vocal and sound design from Jaeger and woodwinds, instrumental soloists, percussion and choir from Nucleus. That said I bought Nucleus about 9 months before I bought Jaeger, so I had enough time to get very familiar with the content of Nucleus. I could imagine that being an issue if you buy both of them at the same time or if you don't use them too often.



darthdeus said:


> Looking back, I'm thinking what I really wanted all along was Metropolis Ark 1, but "it was more expensive and less value", so I ended up getting Nucleus + Jaeger instead, and now I'm still looking at Metropolis.


I think wether Jaeger or Ark 1 is right for you depends mostly on the tone you're after - they are both excellent libraries; Jaeger sounds more modern/processed/clean than Ark 1.


----------



## gamersensual14

Hi everyone,


darthdeus said:


> I thought "I could just use these and wouldn't have to make my own" ... but the thing is, there's about braams, and I only like one of them somewhat. Similarly with hits. Maybe I'm just too picky, but at this point I've reached into the Jaeger FX section many times over, and they just don't have the sound I'd want.


OK I haven't thought about this and I admit it right away, I'm a very picky person, if I'm looking for a sound, it has to be that sound; so maybe the FX included in Jaeger are not that much of a deal. What I really find amazing are the solo vocals in Jaeger, and because of that reason (probably) they sell them alone, but for the full version of Kontakt.......



darthdeus said:


> Looking back, I'm thinking what I really wanted all along was Metropolis Ark 1, but "it was more expensive and less value", so I ended up getting Nucleus + Jaeger instead, and now I'm still looking at Metropolis.


But, if I may ask, how do you compose? With two hands making use of the ensemble patches? Because if that's the case, then having the sections separated in Nucleus and Jaeger is not that much of an advantage. As I compose only with one hand on a tiny keyboard, I wouldn't make that extra use of the ensembles.



darthdeus said:


> One more thing to note about Jaeger/Nucleus since it's just on the top of my head is that some patches, e.g. Celli, have a harsh attack compared to e.g. BBCSO even at lower dynamics.


Yeah I mean, from all I've been told, it seems pretty clear that if I'm looking for realism, good sounding patches with lots of articulation, BBC SO is the way to go, and I mean, the price (around 220$ with the discounts)... waow.



darthdeus said:


> My tip would be to start with BBCSO Discover since it's free


As I said in a previous message I already got it  . And although Spitfire deserves an amazing recognition for that, I'm not a big fan of Discover's sounds... I believe there is an enormus difference between the Discover and Core sounds right?



darthdeus said:


> Also since you mention wanting each group separately, try downloading some of the free orchestral libraries that have split patches, and try to work with separate sections if you haven't already. Otherwise you mind find yourself buying a very detailed "programming-friendly" library while what you really wanted was a "big hands big chords ez sketching" instead.


I hope I was clear in the above answers to note that I'm not into the "big chord" thing (is the first time I hear it but I think I get what you're saying).



Robo Rivard said:


> You seem like the perfect candidate for an EastWest Composer Cloud subscription!


I know, I've already been told that. It is still an option, but I heard a few demos of the Hollywood whatever plugins and... I don't find them really bad, but old, they don't have that "detailed, crisp, modern, kind of big (not massive)" sound I'm looking for (if that makes sense).



Justin L. Franks said:


> But after thinking some more, if you want to get the most bang for your buck, then BBCSO Core is definitely an option. Some other people in this thread have pushed you away from it because you also want to be able to go more towards the "epic" side of things. And they are correct in that BBCSO isn't particularly designed for that. But that doesn't mean it can't do it at all.
> 
> The breadth of articulations in BBCSO Core is completely unrivaled in its price range. When it goes on sale for 40% off, and including the crossgrade discount from Discover (which still applies even if you got Discover for free by completing the survey), Core costs only $220. Even outside of a sale, it is only $400, which is incredible for what you get.


I'm going to do some research on epic tracks made with BBC SO, to see if they sound like I want my tracks to sound.



Laurin Lenschow said:


> If you have any specific questions about Nucleus + Jaeger and/or Ark 1+2 I might be able to answer them as I have all of them


Hi Laurin! Thank you so much for your availability! The first question is about what you said here:


Laurin Lenschow said:


> I think wether Jaeger or Ark 1 is right for you depends mostly on the tone you're after - they are both excellent libraries; Jaeger sounds more modern/processed/clean than Ark 1.


Speaking about the tone: the words that better describe what I *don't* want are "muddy", "not clean", "rough", "super light (the sound I mean)", "old". On the other hand, the words that better describe *what I want* are "detailed", "crisp (I've heard this term used in music, sorry if it doesn't make sense jajaja)", "big", "clean", "strong". What of the libraries you have fit better each group?

Also, *for everyone*, if you have any tracks made with any of these libraries we're talking about, feel free to post them as I would love to hear them! (it won't count as spam) .

Thank you!!


----------



## mybadmemory

For BBCSO Core you could listen to the FFIV arrangement linked in my signature.

You could also check out my old thread where I (playfully) compare 5 starter libraries (and many others were added as well).






5 Starter Libraries Compared


(Updated) I recently decided to put my starter libraries (and myself) to the test, by remaking the same short piece using all five of them. This was mostly done for myself, to get to know their respective sounds, workflows, and overall pros and cons better, but I thought I might share the five...




vi-control.net


----------



## darthdeus

gamersensual14 said:


> OK I haven't thought about this and I admit it right away, I'm a very picky person, if I'm looking for a sound, it has to be that sound; so maybe the FX included in Jaeger are not that much of a deal. What I really find amazing are the solo vocals in Jaeger, and because of that reason (probably) they sell them alone, but for the full version of Kontakt.......


To be honest I actually wanted to buy the solo vocals, but then there was a big black Friday sale and I thought "hey it's just $200, might as well get the whole thing". I don't really regret it, but it's not my favorite library. Also I don't really use the vocals :D They sound amazing, but they're a specific sound, and having tried using them a couple of times I always feel like "hmm this sounds very similar to the previous time I used it".



gamersensual14 said:


> But, if I may ask, how do you compose? With two hands making use of the ensemble patches? Because if that's the case, then having the sections separated in Nucleus and Jaeger is not that much of an advantage. As I compose only with one hand on a tiny keyboard, I wouldn't make that extra use of the ensembles.


I don't really have a fixed process to be honest. The "big chords with both hands" is something I started saying and doing more after seeing Chris Henson from Spitfire talk about this a bunch of times with libraries like Albion One. Since the only instrument I play is a piano (not amazing at it, but I can play with both hands) I like to just improvise with big ensembles and see where it leads to. This will sound silly but what I really liked about Abbey Road One is that it's all these big ensembles, including a full "Orchestra" patch that just has everything in it, so if I feel like just playing around with orchestral sound I can load Abbey, which loads the big patch by default, and play with it in 5 seconds.

To be honest I like this mostly since I'm still a very big noob in terms of composition and I really don't get far if I start by building up sections one by one, especially if it's like Violin 1/2, then Violas, and then I just get demotivated and go goof around on my analog synth. But the top down approach seems to work better for me, e.g. starting with a big ensemble, just recording some chord progression with maybe some simple melodic idea, and then realize it sounds like shit, cut out parts of the midi and start splitting it into sections (there goes usually BBCSO).



gamersensual14 said:


> Yeah I mean, from all I've been told, it seems pretty clear that if I'm looking for realism, good sounding patches with lots of articulation, BBC SO is the way to go, and I mean, the price (around 220$ with the discounts)... waow.


I would say that at least from the libraries I have (Nucleus, Jaeger, Abbey Road One, BBCSO Core, Symphony Essentials & East West Hollywood Orchestra) that BBCSO is the one I load up when I just think "now I need some Cellos". One thing I'd want to mention that people often don't is how user friendly the library is to actually use. While I don't like some things about the Spitfire player (no layering, switching between Core and Discover to get ensembles), I like how easy it is to switch sections and articulations in the UI, and that there's a huge reverb knob I can just move for some lazy sound adjustment.


gamersensual14 said:


> Speaking about the tone: the words that better describe what I *don't* want are "muddy", "not clean", "rough", "super light (the sound I mean)", "old". On the other hand, the words that better describe *what I want* are "detailed", "crisp (I've heard this term used in music, sorry if it doesn't make sense jajaja)", "big", "clean", "strong". What of the libraries you have fit better each group?


Maybe one thing to consider, and take this with a grain of salt since like I said, I'm still very much a noob, is that since you mentioned you're not after hyper-realism that you can get "big/strong" out of "clean", but can be hard to go the other way. Some layering and reverb can go a long way towards making things sound big, even if it'll be blasphemous in the eyes of purists.

One more thought I wanted to say about people recommending Damage 2. If your budget is tight that you're already only considering buying one all-in-one library I'd look into how deep you want to get into percussion and how much of it you can get elsewhere. I only have Damage 1, but it seems to me that everything has a ton of cinematic percussion in it these days, and there's so many free or very cheap ones that it might be worth spending 300EUR elsewhere (which is what Damage 2 costs now on the discount), e.g. something like Cinematic Studio Strings (if that's what you're into of course).


----------



## Laurin Lenschow

gamersensual14 said:


> Speaking about the tone: the words that better describe what I *don't* want are "muddy", "not clean", "rough", "super light (the sound I mean)", "old". On the other hand, the words that better describe *what I want* are "detailed", "crisp (I've heard this term used in music, sorry if it doesn't make sense jajaja)", "big", "clean", "strong". What of the libraries you have fit better each group?
> 
> Also, *for everyone*, if you have any tracks made with any of these libraries we're talking about, feel free to post them as I would love to hear them! (it won't count as spam) .


Crisp and clean make me think of Jaeger, big and strong sound more like Ark 1. I know this answer is probably not extremely helpful, but tomorrow (I'm not at home today) I could provide some audio examples of exposed sections, comparing Ark 1 + 2 to Nucleus + Jaeger. That way you will be able to compare the tones of the libraries yourself


----------



## gamersensual14

mybadmemory said:


> You could also check out my old thread where I (playfully) compare 5 starter libraries (and many others were added as well).


OK first of all... *WHAT?! *Why didn't you just post this right away?? It's amazing!! While it is true that each library has different purposes, having them *all* do this (actually very good) track of yours is great!! Please recommend that thread to anyone looking for libraries! I had a quick listen but I'll hear each one more calmly when I have the time.



darthdeus said:


> To be honest I actually wanted to buy the solo vocals, but then there was a big black Friday sale and I thought "hey it's just $200, might as well get the whole thing". I don't really regret it, but it's not my favorite library. Also I don't really use the vocals :D They sound amazing, but they're a specific sound, and having tried using them a couple of times I always feel like "hmm this sounds very similar to the previous time I used it".


Man, I don't want to sound weird but I feel you so much, in the sense that that will probably happen to me to. I listened to the demos of Jaeger and obviously was amazed by the vocals. Then, some time later I was listening to some random string library demo and then I was like "Hey! I know those vocals." and then looked in the description and yes, they were Jaeger's vocals. If I was able to recognise them like that after a few tracks... mmmm... not good.



darthdeus said:


> But the top down approach seems to work better for me, e.g. starting with a big ensemble, just recording some chord progression with maybe some simple melodic idea, and then realize it sounds like shit, cut out parts of the midi and start splitting it into sections (there goes usually BBCSO).


In that matter we are the opposite then, I go little by little, and normally start my tracks with a melody or an ostinato.



darthdeus said:


> One thing I'd want to mention that people often don't is how user friendly the library is to actually use.


Don't you like the "Pyramid" (I believe) GUI of AI plugins? It seems that they're pretty proud of that on their page, even updated some older plugins to this new GUI.



darthdeus said:


> One more thought I wanted to say about people recommending Damage 2. If your budget is tight that you're already only considering buying one all-in-one library I'd look into how deep you want to get into percussion and how much of it you can get elsewhere. I only have Damage 1, but it seems to me that everything has a ton of cinematic percussion in it these days, and there's so many free or very cheap ones that it might be worth spending 300EUR elsewhere (which is what Damage 2 costs now on the discount), e.g. something like Cinematic Studio Strings (if that's what you're into of course).


About that, I want lots of percussion, heavy, like hybrid. I've said in a previous message that I'm willing to buy 2 or maximum 3 libraries to get everything I need. I really really like the sound of AI's Cerberus and Damage 2, that's what I'm looking for. So I know I'll have to get that appart.



Laurin Lenschow said:


> Crisp and clean make me think of Jaeger, big and strong sound more like Ark 1. I know this answer is probably not extremely helpful, but tomorrow (I'm not at home today) I could provide some audio examples of exposed sections, comparing Ark 1 + 2 to Nucleus + Jaeger. That way you will be able to compare the tones of the libraries yourself


Wow! That would be incredibly nice from you Laurin! I would love to hear those!! 

Also, @mybadmemory as I said, I've seen the post with all the libraries and I saw some messages about "the hard it was to get BBC SO Core fast notes to get in time". Is that still true? I must say that 90% of the time I'll be making medium to high tempo music, I'm not that much fan of sloow pasages.
Also, I've seen in a Spitfire's Audio video that some poeple (quite a lot of people) where like "please fix the intonation issues in BBC SO Core", does that mean something to you?

Thank you everyone!


----------



## Justin L. Franks

gamersensual14 said:


> As I said in a previous message I already got [BBCSO Discover]  . And although Spitfire deserves an amazing recognition for that, I'm not a big fan of Discover's sounds... I believe there is an enormus difference between the Discover and Core sounds right?



Absolutely it does. Discover is limited to a single dynamic layer and no round robins. Core is not, and sounds *much* better because of it.




gamersensual14 said:


> I know, I've already been told that. [EastWest ComposerCloud] is still an option, but I heard a few demos of the Hollywood whatever plugins and... I don't find them really bad, but old, they don't have that "detailed, crisp, modern, kind of big (not massive)" sound I'm looking for (if that makes sense).


ComposerCloud is an incredible deal, especially if you are eligible for the student discount ($10/month for ComposerCloud X). But it is *much* harder to use because of the lack of keyswitches and confusing / disjointed patch names. It also, in my opinion, takes a lot more work in order to sound good compared to more modern libraries. The upcoming Hollywood Orchestra Opus Edition promises to change all of this, and finally bring it into the modern era with regards to ease of use and "out of the box" usability.

Regardless of what you do end up getting, I would say hold off on ComposerCloud until Opus is released. Then you can pay for one month of it, and figure out if it is something you will get good use of.


----------



## mybadmemory

gamersensual14 said:


> OK first of all... *WHAT?! *Why didn't you just post this right away?? It's amazing!! While it is true that each library has different purposes, having them *all* do this (actually very good) track of yours is great!! Please recommend that thread to anyone looking for libraries! I had a quick listen but I'll hear each one more calmly when I have the time.
> 
> 
> Man, I don't want to sound weird but I feel you so much, in the sense that that will probably happen to me to. I listened to the demos of Jaeger and obviously was amazed by the vocals. Then, some time later I was listening to some random string library demo and then I was like "Hey! I know those vocals." and then looked in the description and yes, they were Jaeger's vocals. If I was able to recognise them like that after a few tracks... mmmm... not good.
> 
> 
> In that matter we are the opposite then, I go little by little, and normally start my tracks with a melody or an ostinato.
> 
> 
> Don't you like the "Pyramid" (I believe) GUI of AI plugins? It seems that they're pretty proud of that on their page, even updated some older plugins to this new GUI.
> 
> 
> About that, I want lots of percussion, heavy, like hybrid. I've said in a previous message that I'm willing to buy 2 or maximum 3 libraries to get everything I need. I really really like the sound of AI's Cerberus and Damage 2, that's what I'm looking for. So I know I'll have to get that appart.
> 
> 
> Wow! That would be incredibly nice from you Laurin! I would love to hear those!!
> 
> Also, @mybadmemory as I said, I've seen the post with all the libraries and I saw some messages about "the hard it was to get BBC SO Core fast notes to get in time". Is that still true? I must say that 90% of the time I'll be making medium to high tempo music, I'm not that much fan of sloow pasages.
> Also, I've seen in a Spitfire's Audio video that some poeple (quite a lot of people) where like "please fix the intonation issues in BBC SO Core", does that mean something to you?
> 
> Thank you everyone!


Haha! Thanks! I guess I didn’t recommend the thread since I don’t really think it’s fair to the libraries to compare them like that. All of them are capable of much better results if writing specifically for the library and without the restrictions I set up for myself. I guess you get some information from the test about how they differ in tone and sound, but I wouldn’t want anyone to judge their abilities based on that comparison. 

In regards to you other question, I do think BBCSO still requires some more work to get stuff perfectly tight on the grid, if that's what you want. Despite of this I still end up using it over my other libraries most of the time, simply because I think it sounds much better. Perfectionism is a double edged sword really, and one mans trash is another man treasure. To much inconsistencies and noises and it becomes a pain, but too little and I often find the end result artificial and sterile.


----------



## darthdeus

gamersensual14 said:


> Man, I don't want to sound weird but I feel you so much, in the sense that that will probably happen to me to. I listened to the demos of Jaeger and obviously was amazed by the vocals. Then, some time later I was listening to some random string library demo and then I was like "Hey! I know those vocals." and then looked in the description and yes, they were Jaeger's vocals. If I was able to recognise them like that after a few tracks... mmmm... not good.


Haha yeah they're very specific. I think it was Alex Moukala's YT review where he said it was perfect for that "Bloodborne sound", which is imo a good selling point as well as a downside since it's so recognizable. I'd say it's great to have for when you need it, but really doesn't substitute a general purpose choir sample library.



gamersensual14 said:


> Don't you like the "Pyramid" (I believe) GUI of AI plugins? It seems that they're pretty proud of that on their page, even updated some older plugins to this new GUI.


I'm probably the only person on this forum who really doesn't like that UI :D I actually saw a bunch of videos of the old Jaeger UI and was looking forward to it and then was kinda disappointed that it's no longer available. I know it's the sound that is important, but when a library has a pretty UI that I enjoy it instantly sounds better to me. I know this is superficial, but for example seeing the logo of Chris Hein strings in Kontakt I'd never buy them, because I know I'll hate seeing that every time I open Kontakt.

I know it's superficial, but for me making music is about enjoying the process, and having done a little bit of design stuff in the past it just becomes that more painful for me to look at.






The UI in AI's plugins is nice and functional and clean, but I kinda miss having at least some nice graphical element in it. It's not ugly that I wouldn't use it, but it's not like opening up Keyscape and looking at pretty graphics of pianos that match the mood of the sound they make.

UIs I personally like are for example ImpacSoundworks Shreddage 3 Hydra, since it's both functional and good looking. I also like the UI on the Spitfire player though, and I really love the UI on the upcoming Modern Scoring Strings from Audiobro ... I guess I'm a big knob fan.



gamersensual14 said:


> About that, I want lots of percussion, heavy, like hybrid. I've said in a previous message that I'm willing to buy 2 or maximum 3 libraries to get everything I need. I really really like the sound of AI's Cerberus and Damage 2, that's what I'm looking for. So I know I'll have to get that appart.


Good that you know what you want


----------



## Laurin Lenschow

darthdeus said:


> I actually saw a bunch of videos of the old Jaeger UI and was looking forward to it and then was kinda disappointed that it's no longer available.


I had a similar experience - the new UI is intuitive and easy to work with, but the old one was really inspiring.


----------



## Laurin Lenschow

I did not cover all the sections or articulations in this, but if you would like to hear some specific instruments or articulations feel free to ask.

View attachment Comparison - Ark 1+2 vs Nucleus + Jaeger.mp3


0:00 Ark 1 High Strings Legato
0:22 Jaeger High Strings Legato (Violins and Violas in Octaves, like in the prebaked ensemble from Ark 1)
0:44 Ark 2 High Strings Legato
1:06 Ark 1 High Strings Spiccato
1:30 Jaeger High Strings Spiccato
1:54 Ark 2 High Strings Spiccato
2:18 Ark 1 Low Strings Legato
2:43 Jaeger Low Strings Legato (Celli and Basses in Octaves, like in the prebaked enesemble from Ark 1)
3:08 Ark 2 Low Strings Legato
3:33 Ark 1 Low Strings Short Articulations
3:45 Jaeger Low Strings Short Articulations
3:57 Ark 2 Low Strings Short Articulations
4:09 Ark 1 Bassoons a4 Short Articulations
4:16 Nucleus Bassoons a2 Short Articulations
4:23 Ark 1 Trumpets Staccatissimo
4:28 Jaeger Trumpets Stacatissimo
4:33 Ark 1 Trumpets Legato
4:48 Jaeger Trumpets Legato
5:03 Ark 1 Horns Short Articulations
5:14 Jaeger Horns Short Articulations (with some velocity adjustments)
5:25 Ark 1 Horns Legato
5:43 Jaeger Horns Legato
6:01 Ark 1 Choir Low
6:12 Ark 1 Choir High
6:19 Nucleus Choir
6:32 Ark 2 Choir Women
(for the choirs I didn't use the same midi because they are too different in terms of articulations)

I hope you find this helpful - like I said, if you have any other questions or if you want to listen to specific instruments/articulations just let me know


----------



## daan1412

gamersensual14 said:


> Also, *for everyone*, if you have any tracks made with any of these libraries we're talking about, feel free to post them as I would love to hear them! (it won't count as spam) .


If you're interested, here's something I did with just Abbey Road One. It's all straight out of the box, zero post-processing and no additional instruments.


----------



## gamersensual14

Hi everyone!


daan1412 said:


> If you're interested, here's something I did with just Abbey Road One. It's all straight out of the box, zero post-processing and no additional instruments.


Of course I'm interested in hearing all these libraries in action, send me everything you make (specially if it is made with just one library!) .



Justin L. Franks said:


> Absolutely it does. Discover is limited to a single dynamic layer and no round robins. Core is not, and sounds *much* better because of it.


As people say wonderful things about it, I believe that's the case.



Justin L. Franks said:


> ComposerCloud is an incredible deal, especially if you are eligible for the student discount ($10/month for ComposerCloud X). But it is *much* harder to use because of the lack of keyswitches and confusing / disjointed patch names. It also, in my opinion, takes a lot more work in order to sound good compared to more modern libraries.


Thank you for this, it is so important for me (*not* a sound engineer) to have plugins that sound good "out of the box", as the production I can bring to them is pretty limited...



Justin L. Franks said:


> Regardless of what you do end up getting, I would say hold off on ComposerCloud until Opus is released. Then you can pay for one month of it, and figure out if it is something you will get good use of.


Got it! 



mybadmemory said:


> Haha! Thanks! I guess I didn’t recommend the thread since I don’t really think it’s fair to the libraries to compare them like that. All of them are capable of much better results if writing specifically for the library and without the restrictions I set up for myself. I guess you get some information from the test about how they differ in tone and sound, but I wouldn’t want anyone to judge their abilities based on that comparison.
> 
> In regards to you other question, I do think BBCSO still requires some more work to get stuff perfectly tight on the grid, if that's what you want. Despite of this I still end up using it over my other libraries most of the time, simply because I think it sounds much better. Perfectionism is a double edged sword really, and one mans trash is another man treasure. To much inconsistencies and noises and it becomes a pain, but too little and I often find the end result artificial and sterile.


I know what you mean with the "don't judge the libraries like that", and I totally understand it. It is true that I cannot just listen to one song and decide, but I think it helps me "cut from the edges", and by that I mean that I can clearly see (hear) what libraries I *don't* want (for example, Sonuscore The Orchestra), and which libraries sound really good to my ear (Albion One sounded f*cking incredible, Cinesymphony LITE also sounded pretty good).

And for the "tight notes" matter, I made a track real quick, as an example (using only Discover, I really lack perc here), for you to see an example of what I like to create. I mean the song is not good, but I would like you to think, "Would BBC SO perform this great out of the box?".

*Track*
View attachment foro_example.mp3




Laurin Lenschow said:


> I did not cover all the sections or articulations in this, but if you would like to hear some specific instruments or articulations feel free to ask.


Laurin, I can't thank you enough for this, man thanks to you now I got things way more clear, so, *4* *things*:

1. *Ark 1 and 2 sound better than Jaeger*. For me that's it. Why? Jaeger's (& Nucleus) high brass is almost painful to hear because it has LOTS of noise or harsh freq in there (am I the only one with this opinion?). The same with the high strings, although it's not as bad at all. In the low strings I kind of liked Jaeger more! The choir of Nucleus feels a fraction of the size of the Ark 1's.

So I mean it's not that I don't like Jaeger at all but Ark 1 sounds like... 25% better I would say? Ark 2 is definitely made for quite stuff, and only for that.

2. As for the above track, if I'm not wrong, *Ark 1 would have problems* performing all the beginning (ignoring if it doesn't have the exact same instruments, I'm talking about dynamics), as it starts quite soft and then raises until the end where you have everything playing at the same time, etc. This is why I said in the first post that I need soft, and big / hard dynamics. If you had to make that track, *what library would you chose?*

3. For this reason, I can't see myself buying Ark 1 without Ark 2 (are Ark 3 or 4 more general / flexible?), since for me it would be like having half of what I need. In that case, we're comparing an almost 900€ library (Ark 1 & 2) to a 450$ one (Jaeger or Nucleus, I'd probably buy Nucleus out of these two), which is not really fair.

4. As for the ensemble thing, you guys are making me change my opinion, just answer me this question please jajaja @daan1412 and @Laurin Lenschow . If you want to make a cover of something (as daan did with the Star Wars theme), and you look at the score and you realize that the basses are doing one thing and the cellos other, what do you do?? I mean, as I see it there will be lots of parts in the song where there are instruments doing things you don't want them to do right? Do you just add the two different parts, so in the example of basses and cellos you would have like a section twice as big as it really is (since both basses and cellos are playing each other's parts)?

Thank you so much!


----------



## companyofquail

i have been very happy with getting quite a few things from spitfire over the years. i feel like their libraries mix well together, which will be super beneficial to you if youre not an engineer or are short on time. 


i would suggest watching this video closely 

on a side note; i put off buying albion one for a long time because of what i thought it would/could do. once i purchased it i found myself liking and using it a lot more than i expected. just has a lot of sounds that "click" with other tracks. that goes for strictly orchestral stuff as well as shoehorning it into rock, folk, hip hop, and pop tracks.


----------



## Trash Panda

Welcome to the world of sample libraries. All of them are going to have tradeoffs somewhere. Some might have great tone, but sloppy shorts, consistency or QC issues (Spitfire). Others are incredibly consistent, but the tone isn’t for everyone (Audio Imperia, Cinematic Studio Series, Infinite Series). Some may have great sound, but are hard to work with until you learn their quirks (Hollywood Orchestra). None of them will do it all perfectly. 

Here are more examples below that may help. Bear in mind, I’m less than a year into this world, so anything sounding wonky is likely more a fault of mine than the library.

Nucleus doing the Avengers theme (Tom Hawk):


My rendition of The Avengers using Abbey Road One:




__





SoundCloud - Hear the world’s sounds


Explore the largest community of artists, bands, podcasters and creators of music & audio




soundcloud.app.goo.gl





Bloodborne OST - The Hunter using only Audio Imperia libraries (could likely be done with just Nucleus):




__





SoundCloud - Hear the world’s sounds


Explore the largest community of artists, bands, podcasters and creators of music & audio




soundcloud.app.goo.gl





Star Wars theme using Nucleus:




__





Star Wars Main Theme - dueling mockups V1: Nucleus vs BBCSO Core


Updated for the new purpose of this thread - practicing my mock up chops by butchering one of JW's most iconic themes. First up was Nucleus. I messed up the mixing on the original version REALLY badly and like it much better after revisiting and applying the MIDI tweaks I learned from putting...




vi-control.net


----------



## Laurin Lenschow

gamersensual14 said:


> 1. *Ark 1 and 2 sound better than Jaeger*. For me that's it. Why? Jaeger's (& Nucleus) high brass is almost painful to hear because it has LOTS of noise or harsh freq in there (am I the only one with this opinion?).


The Trumpets, Horns and Violins from Jaeger do have some strong harsh frequencies when played at high dynamics, yeah.



gamersensual14 said:


> 2. As for the above track, if I'm not wrong, *Ark 1 would have problems* performing all the beginning (ignoring if it doesn't have the exact same instruments, I'm talking about dynamics), as it starts quite soft and then raises until the end where you have everything playing at the same time, etc. This is why I said in the first post that I need soft, and big / hard dynamics. If you had to make that track, *what library would you chose?*


Yes, Ark 1 would be too loud/aggressive for that beginning and would not make much sense without Ark 2 if you're not planning on doing "epic" music exclusively.
If I had to make that track (with nothing but _one _library) I would probably go for Nucleus I think.
(For context, these are the "full" orchestral libraries that I own: Jaeger, Nucleus, Ark 1, Ark 2, (Ark 3,) Majestica, Albion One, The Orchestra. Therefore I can't comment on BBCSO, Berlin Inspire etc.)
If you would like to hear Nucleus perform your track you could send me the midi 



gamersensual14 said:


> 3. are Ark 3 or 4 more general / flexible?


No, in fact they are pretty specific. Ark 3 is even more aggressive than Ark 1, featuring a lot of clusters and repetitions. The idea behind Ark 3 is to have a vast array of percussion together with a full orchestra that is kind of immitating drums (lots of short notes and clusters, no sustains etc.). Ark 4 consists of smaller ensembles and unusual combinations of instruments; all of them are relatively expressive and powerful in terms of dynamics.



gamersensual14 said:


> 4. As for the ensemble thing, you guys are making me change my opinion, just answer me this question please jajaja @daan1412 and @Laurin Lenschow . If you want to make a cover of something (as daan did with the Star Wars theme), and you look at the score and you realize that the basses are doing one thing and the cellos other, what do you do?? I mean, as I see it there will be lots of parts in the song where there are instruments doing things you don't want them to do right? Do you just add the two different parts, so in the example of basses and cellos you would have like a section twice as big as it really is (since both basses and cellos are playing each other's parts)?


I am currently working some sort of cover (I want to create an extensive Harry Potter Suite) and the only thing I am using an ensemble patch for in this cover are String Pizzicatos (I don't _need _an ensemble patch for that, but it works quite well for me). 
As @daan1412 has shown quite impressively, you can get _very _far with ensemble patches - I would still prefer having control of the individual sections though.


Btw: You could buy Nucleus and complement it with individual patches from Ark 1 and/or 2.
Ark 1 + 2 have a Kontakt-version and a Sine-version; the latter allows you to buy individual instruments instead of the entire library. So for example you could buy Nucleus (450$) and complement it with the trumpets (46€ + VAT) and high strings (59€ + VAT) from Ark 1 and the harps a6 (46€ + VAT) from Ark 2.


----------



## Trash Panda

Here’s a hybrid Japanese game soundtrack using Jaeger for the orchestral elements.


Post in thread 'Making Music like Hiroyuki Sawano'
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/making-music-like-hiroyuki-sawano.100899/post-4728644


----------



## gamersensual14

Hey,



companyofquail said:


> i would suggest watching this video closely


I've already seen that video a couple times already jajaja but thanks, it is indeed a good video.



companyofquail said:


> on a side note; i put off buying albion one for a long time because of what i thought it would/could do. once i purchased it i found myself liking and using it a lot more than i expected. just has a lot of sounds that "click" with other tracks. that goes for strictly orchestral stuff as well as shoehorning it into rock, folk, hip hop, and pop tracks.


This is cool, since I also make other genres.



Trash Panda said:


> Welcome to the world of sample libraries. All of them are going to have tradeoffs somewhere. Some might have great tone, but sloppy shorts, consistency or QC issues (Spitfire). Others are incredibly consistent, but the tone isn’t for everyone (Audio Imperia, Cinematic Studio Series, Infinite Series). Some may have great sound, but are hard to work with until you learn their quirks (Hollywood Orchestra). None of them will do it all perfectly.


AAarrhggt, easy to admit... but I won't! We will f*cking find the best 2 or 3 libraries for me (and for everyone interested in this thread in the future)!!  I can feel we're getting closer jajaja, and it's only been a few days since I posted the thread so... wow.



Trash Panda said:


> Here are more examples below that may help. Bear in mind, I’m less than a year into this world, so anything sounding wonky is likely more a fault of mine than the library.


OK so I've had already watched Tom's video and... it sounds very good, but looking at his studio, he probably knows what he is doing in terms of sound and he has probably tweaked the library a lot so it sounds how he wants to, so your tracks help me more in the decision than his video!

The tracks are very cool, I *really* like the tone in the Bloodborne one, so that's a point for Nucleus.

In the Star Wars theme, were you using the "Classic", or the "Modern" mix of the instruments?

The Avengers sounds great in terms of recording quality, I mean if you were a professional sound engineer that would sound amazing, but one thing I noticed is that *the percussion is not on tempo*, for example, the hits at 0:14 sound sooner than the rest of the orchestra.
Is that how it comes out of the box? If that's the case, you, as the user, would have to move the perc so it matches the rest of the instruments, which is not great... also, playing along to try new things must be very difficult.



Laurin Lenschow said:


> If you would like to hear Nucleus perform your track you could send me the midi


Hi Laurin, man I cheked out your YouTube channel and you're only 19! Man I'm 20 jajaja.

That would be *amazing* from you, and I really appreciate it . I'll make some tweaks to the track so it doesn't sound wrong and I'll upload it tomorrow! (if anyone else wants to try to make a mockup of the track with any other library feel free to do so!)

I don't want to take advantage of your kindness, but it would be great if you also tried to make the song with *Albion One*, to see how the ensembles do, and if you have any trouble working with them.



Laurin Lenschow said:


> Btw: You could buy Nucleus and complement it with individual patches from Ark 1 and/or 2.
> Ark 1 + 2 have a Kontakt-version and a Sine-version; the latter allows you to buy individual instruments instead of the entire library. So for example you could buy Nucleus (450$) and complement it with the trumpets (46€ + VAT) and high strings (59€ + VAT) from Ark 1 and the harps a6 (46€ + VAT) from Ark 2.


*Now about this*, I'm starting to view things more clearer (thanks to the amazing advice I'm being given!!), here are my thoughts (*this is like a summary of what we have until now*, is there a way I can mark somehow this post so people at the beginning of the thread can go directly to this one?):

** Nucleus is great* for everything (especially the lows) *but for high freq*, which are quite harsh and narrow compared to the rest of the instruments.
** Ark 1 & 2 *only make sense together (for my style), are ensembles, and quite expensive if I buy them completely. *Ark 3 & 4* seem to be even more "nieche" (is the first time I use this word but I believe is correct) so they're not for me.
* Spitfire libraries *have the most real sound *out of any library, but sadly except BBC SO Core they are all ensemble-only. Also, some of them seem to be a little "sloppy" when playing fast passages.
* Hollywood Orchestra (and because of that the EW ComposerCloud) is pretty old-fashioned and I should wait until "Opus" is released to try it out.
* I was recommended Steinberg Iconica, but it is way to expensive.

So, now I'm going to list some libraries I have *not* been recommended but I'm curious about (I discovered them in the @mybadmemory "old" post), in case someone wants to share his/her thoughts:

* *Project Sam*, I think they sound actually really good, do you think any of these packs would suit me? Maybe other Project Sams' library?








Symphobia 1+2 Duo Pack - ProjectSAM


Experience the fully updated 2.0 versions of Symphobia 1 & 2 with an all-new design, full articulation control, new multis and Adaptive Sync.




projectsam.com












Orchestral Essentials Pack - ProjectSAM


Get up to scoring speed with the killer cinematic package, combining the must-have essentials of volume 1 with the exciting new additions found in volume 2.




projectsam.com












Symphonic Pack - ProjectSAM


Experience the fully updated 2021 2.0 versions of Symphobia 1 and True Strike 1. Combine the classic and proven orchestral Symphobia with the original orchestral percussion library of choice for film, TV and game composers. Now in a brand-new interface offering a ton of new features.




projectsam.com





* *Spitfire Studio Orchestra *and B*ernard Herrmann Composer Toolkit*, I believe are the only all-in-one Spitfire's libraries whom we haven't talked about.

* *Red Room Audio Palette*.

* *Cinesymphony Lite*. I've heard it and it sounds good, but I've checked their individual instruments and they seem to be pretty expensive and the GUI is not the most comfortable.

I can't thank you enough for the support I've got until now, thank you everyone !


----------



## Trash Panda

On the Avengers theme, it’s likely me that screwed up the timing. Abbey Road One percussion is pretty tight on timing.

Star Wars and Bloodborne are both using classic mix. ThemeX is using the Modern mix.


----------



## Laurin Lenschow

gamersensual14 said:


> I don't want to take advantage of your kindness, but it would be great if you also tried to make the song with *Albion One*, to see how the ensembles do, and if you have any trouble working with them.


I will see what I can do 



gamersensual14 said:


> * *Project Sam*, I think they sound actually really good, do you think any of these packs would suit me? Maybe other Project Sams' library?


I don't own any of the Symphobia libraries (unfortunately - I always wanted to get them, but there always were other libraries that seemed more important at that given time) but I must have watched the walkthoughs about a dozen times. I am convinced that they are great (I think they are about the same age or even slightly older than Hollywood Orchestra though), but I think they consist mostly of ensembles, so it depends on wether you still want individual sections or not.
You should also note that there is almost no percussion in the Symphobia libraries, so you would _need _True Strike (or another percussion library), but Symphobia 1 has no Legato. Therefore, if you decide to go with ProjectSAM, you would have to get Symphobia 1+2 + a percussion library (+ a choir library if that is important to you).
In case you don't know what to do with your time, search for "Guy Rowland Symphobia" on YouTube. There you will find multiple hours of videos showcasing the exact content of the Symphobia libraries (these are the walkthroughs I have watched so many times).


----------



## daan1412

gamersensual14 said:


> 4. As for the ensemble thing, you guys are making me change my opinion, just answer me this question please jajaja @daan1412 and @Laurin Lenschow . If you want to make a cover of something (as daan did with the Star Wars theme), and you look at the score and you realize that the basses are doing one thing and the cellos other, what do you do?? I mean, as I see it there will be lots of parts in the song where there are instruments doing things you don't want them to do right? Do you just add the two different parts, so in the example of basses and cellos you would have like a section twice as big as it really is (since both basses and cellos are playing each other's parts)?


When you use ensemble libraries for full arrangements, I guess you have to accept you're kind of doing an impression of "proper" (for lack of a better word...) orchestration and just focus on the overall sound of the piece. Which isn't a bad thing, it's just another way of making music. The end result is what matters and if the end result sounds great, then who cares.

The Star Wars thing I posted was done by ear and wasn't meant to be an exact representation of the original score, so I wasn't strict about orchestration. But following up on the example you mentioned - with cellos and basses - I would simply use one patch to play both lines. Or load two instances of the patch and pretend one is basses and one is cellos. I think you can get away with it in the mix and still manage to sound realistic.

I will pick instrument-specific libraries over ensemble libraries without a doubt - more detail, more control. Can't do intricate stuff without it. But it doesn't change the fact that ensemble libraries are super useful. When I was doing my Matrix mockup (linked below), I needed to do one big woodwinds chord and I just didn't bother to load separate instruments and used an ensemble patch from Abbey Road One instead. I was pretty happy with how clear it still sounded.




Oh, and by the way, here's an alternate version of this mockup, done 100% with Hollywood Orchestra.


----------



## janwilke

+1 on ensemble patches being useful, even if you have the instruments separately. I miss ensemble patches in BBCSO, for example. Especially for things like chordal accompaniments in strings - yes, you could figure out all the lines, but it is not only easier to play them in as chords, I think it also sounds better most of the time, more homogeneous. Or for big chords in brass and winds - most of the time it does not matter which instrument gets which note and you can save so much time and effort with ensembles. 

I still think you should seriously think about Albion ONE, especially as you seem to like its sound. It is marketed exactly at your current needs - a great all-in-one library. It cannot do everything, but it really gets pretty close, you can absolutely make great tracks with it alone and it does not get useless when you add more libraries. When you work with it for a while, you will see what you miss most - solo instruments? Bigger sound? Choir? More synths? Then you can look for that.


----------



## companyofquail

I was actually going to suggest the spitfire studio orchestra to you. The Bernard Herman toolkit is awesome but has a very specific sound. I use it quite a bit. But it def does not spring to mind as a suggestion inside your requirements.

if you have not seen this page maybe it will help. 










What is the difference between Studio Orchestra Pro, Spitfire Symphony Orchestra Pro, and BBC Symphony Orchestra Pro?


At Spitfire Audio we currently have three professional orchestral libraries. These are: Studio Orchestra Professional, Spitfire Symphony Orchestra Professional, and BBC Symphony Orchestra. Provid...




spitfireaudio.zendesk.com


----------



## Justin L. Franks

gamersensual14 said:


> I don't want to take advantage of your kindness, but it would be great if you also tried to make the song with *Albion One*, to see how the ensembles do, and if you have any trouble working with them.


I can take care of the Albion ONE version, so @LaurensGoedhart doesn't have to do it with two libraries.


----------



## bosone

why not considering Komplete?
IMHO is one of the best option for what you are looking for
most economonic pathway would be looking for an used copy of kontakt, then wait for the 50% off upgrade


----------



## Justin L. Franks

bosone said:


> why not considering Komplete?
> IMHO is one of the best option for what you are looking for
> most economonic pathway would be looking for an used copy of kontakt, then wait for the 50% off upgrade


Komplete is definitely a great value, but as a primary source for orchestral libraries, what is included falls way short of the dedicated libraries already discussed. Even the orchestral libraries in the Ultimate Edition simply do not compare to dedicated libraries for the types of music the OP wants to write. The Ultimate Collector's Edition is more workable, having the full versions of the orchestral libraries instead of the "essentials" versions that the Ultimate Edition has, but even at 50% off, it is still $800, which is a lot more money than the OP wants to spend at this point.


----------



## bosone

Justin L. Franks said:


> Komplete is definitely a great value, but as a primary source for orchestral libraries, what is included falls way short of the dedicated libraries already discussed. Even the orchestral libraries in the Ultimate Edition simply do not compare to dedicated libraries for the types of music the OP wants to write. The Ultimate Collector's Edition is more workable, having the full versions of the orchestral libraries instead of the "essentials" versions that the Ultimate Edition has, but even at 50% off, it is still $800, which is a lot more money than the OP wants to spend at this point.


you are right. but don't forget the stock kontakt library with the "old" VLS, which is still quite good.

moreover, i would not suggest the collector edition (I have it): the symphony serie is very weak IMHO. only the cremona quartet is really worth... and the OP didn't mention "realism" as a primary need.

but for "cinematic" music i feel komplete has the best possible value - but you should go for Ultimate to get all the cinamtic libraries.... which is indeed quite pricey if you don't follow a upgrade/discount path


----------



## gamersensual14

Hi!


Trash Panda said:


> On the Avengers theme, it’s likely me that screwed up the timing. Abbey Road One percussion is pretty tight on timing.
> 
> Star Wars and Bloodborne are both using classic mix. ThemeX is using the Modern mix.


Thanks for being honest jajaja! In that case, Abbey Road doesn't get penalized because of sloppy perc  . In my case I would probably always use the "Modern" mode of Nucleus, are there any big differences between both modes? Or is it just a matter of EQ, compression, etc?

And since we're talking about Nucleus, @Trash Panda @audioimperia how much is the discount if I buy Nucleus + Cerberus?



Laurin Lenschow said:


> I will see what I can do





Justin L. Franks said:


> I can take care of the Albion ONE version, so @LaurensGoedhart doesn't have to do it with two libraries.


Thank you so much Laurin and Justin ! Here is everything you need (tell me if something's wrong) -> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1tOkifrPmzaz77dtNHE8Eourqv0QO6sjI?usp=sharing

If anyone wants to collaborate is more than welcome to do so!





Laurin Lenschow said:


> You should also note that there is almost no percussion in the Symphobia libraries, so you would _need _True Strike (or another percussion library), but Symphobia 1 has no Legato. Therefore, if you decide to go with ProjectSAM, you would have to get Symphobia 1+2 + a percussion library (+ a choir library if that is important to you).
> In case you don't know what to do with your time, search for "Guy Rowland Symphobia" on YouTube. There you will find multiple hours of videos showcasing the exact content of the Symphobia libraries (these are the walkthroughs I have watched so many times).


Well, that's another thing I haven't mentioned since I feel like it's basic but it looks like some libraries doesn't have it. *I need legatos in the instruments that often play legatos*, a few examples: Horn(s), as many string sections as possible, Flute(s), Oboe(s), etc. I mean it isn't terrible if some group doesn't have legato, but it is needed to do solos, or smooth passages.

Now, after what you said, Symphobia 1 and 2 are out. Now, the remaining "pack" would be:








Orchestral Essentials Pack - ProjectSAM


Get up to scoring speed with the killer cinematic package, combining the must-have essentials of volume 1 with the exciting new additions found in volume 2.




projectsam.com




*or*








Symphobia 3: Lumina - ProjectSAM


Featuring full orchestra, choir, smaller ensembles and a wide range of guest instruments, Symphobia 3: Lumina dives into the world of fantasy, mystery and fairy tales. Now fully updated with a brand-new design.




projectsam.com





*with*
https://projectsam.com/libraries/true-strike-pack/
What's your opinion on that @Laurin Lenschow ? What would you choose? As I've read, Lumina comes with... pretty weird patches... I mean, it seems like it is not supposed to be your typical orchestra.



daan1412 said:


> But following up on the example you mentioned - with cellos and basses - I would simply use one patch to play both lines. Or load two instances of the patch and pretend one is basses and one is cellos. I think you can get away with it in the mix and still manage to sound realistic.


Yes, in that case it is as I imagined, you literally cannot orchestrate properly but things will still sound great, although you may have more instruments than intended playing at some points...



daan1412 said:


> I will pick instrument-specific libraries over ensemble libraries without a doubt - more detail, more control. Can't do intricate stuff without it. But it doesn't change the fact that ensemble libraries are super useful. When I was doing my Matrix mockup (linked below), I needed to do one big woodwinds chord and I just didn't bother to load separate instruments and used an ensemble patch from Abbey Road One instead. I was pretty happy with how clear it still sounded.


Mmmm, that's a great way to put it, I'll think about it. The last I want to happen is to pick up an ensemble library and in 3 months from now be like "oh, I can't do this cool thing I want to, lets's buy another library!!" you know?



daan1412 said:


> Oh, and by the way, here's an alternate version of this mockup, done 100% with Hollywood Orchestra.


*OK *so now we're talking, this is the *perfect *example of what I like and what I don't. The Hollywood Orchestra is definitely what I *don't *like, it sounds veeery different from the other libraries you used in the original version, way older, not as clear, I think the best way to put it is that it lacks definition. It's literally like a level up from one to another.




janwilke said:


> I still think you should seriously think about Albion ONE, especially as you seem to like its sound. It is marketed exactly at your current needs - a great all-in-one library. It cannot do everything, but it really gets pretty close, you can absolutely make great tracks with it alone and it does not get useless when you add more libraries. When you work with it for a while, you will see what you miss most - solo instruments? Bigger sound? Choir? More synths? Then you can look for that.


Yes! Let's see how the Albion ONE's version of the example I uploaded sounds. It is true that with a choir library and maybe a perc one it may be done.



companyofquail said:


> if you have not seen this page maybe it will help.


Thank you for that page! Spitfire really cares about the customer it seems. The thing is that the Studio Orchestra is labeled as "Pop" and "Early Hollywood sound", that is pretty much what I don't want. It also has smaller ensembles, so discarded! 

It looks like the difference between the Spitfire Symphony Orchestra and the BBC SO is that the last one sound more classic, and the first more cinematic, what a pity that it costs 1700€... 

Thank you!


----------



## yiph2

gamersensual14 said:


> It looks like the difference between the Spitfire Symphony Orchestra and the BBC SO is that the last one sound more classic, and the first more cinematic, what a pity that it costs 1700€...


IMO it is pretty overpriced at full price. However there was a bundle for SSS, SSB, SSW and the harp for $898, and that was a bargain! Don't think they'll ever do that again but they will probably have another 40% sale in the spring


----------



## Trash Panda

Modern mix is a different blend of microphones with some eq applied. It’s also about 6 dB louder than the classic mix.

There is no cross grade pricing for Cerberus. Best to wait for it to go on sale as the content is pretty sparse for the price. Damage 2 is on sale at the NI site and is a better value.


----------



## Laurin Lenschow

@gamersensual14 just a quick question about the instructions you gave - is it ok to use effects (specifically EQ) on individual tracks if I turn these effetcs off for the version without them?
To be more specific: I want to cut some of the high frequencies from the horns and it would not make sense to put that EQ on the master.

Edit: And a second question - does the onboard algorithmic reverb of the library count as effect and should be turned off for the version without effects, or should I leave it on since it is part of the library itself?


----------



## daan1412

gamersensual14 said:


> *OK *so now we're talking, this is the *perfect *example of what I like and what I don't. The Hollywood Orchestra is definitely what I *don't *like, it sounds veeery different from the other libraries you used in the original version, way older, not as clear, I think the best way to put it is that it lacks definition. It's literally like a level up from one to another.


It's certainly possible to make HO sound way better than I managed to. But it takes a lot of tweaking. The library/engine is notorious for being difficult to work with compared to newer alternatives, which is why I wouldn't recommend it as a primary solution nowadays. There's a lot of good content in it, so it's useful to have access to that, but I wouldn't choose it as my bread-and-butter.


----------



## gamersensual14

yiph2 said:


> IMO it is pretty overpriced at full price. However there was a bundle for SSS, SSB, SSW and the harp for $898, and that was a bargain! Don't think they'll ever do that again but they will probably have another 40% sale in the spring


Damn.



Trash Panda said:


> Modern mix is a different blend of microphones with some eq applied. It’s also about 6 dB louder than the classic mix.
> 
> There is no cross grade pricing for Cerberus. Best to wait for it to go on sale as the content is pretty sparse for the price. Damage 2 is on sale at the NI site and is a better value.


Got it! So I understand that Cerberus doesn't share any content with Nucleus then. And with Jaeger? (I know there's that pdf but I don't know how to see if some content is shared or not).



Laurin Lenschow said:


> @gamersensual14 just a quick question about the instructions you gave - is it ok to use effects (specifically EQ) on individual tracks if I turn these effetcs off for the version without them?
> To be more specific: I want to cut some of the high frequencies from the horns and it would not make sense to put that EQ on the master.
> 
> Edit: And a second question - does the onboard algorithmic reverb of the library count as effect and should be turned off for the version without effects, or should I leave it on since it is part of the library itself?


1. I wouldn't like you to use EQ to cut a certain freq. on an instrument, since I want to hear how the library sounds. But *if you really want to, sure!* As you said, put it *in the version with FX* and be sure to write down that you did that and why you did that!

2. You can always use the reverb of the library, in both versions. But if you want to add, lets say, Valhalla Room, or Fabfilter Pro R or something like that, that would be the FX version.



daan1412 said:


> It's certainly possible to make HO sound way better than I managed to. But it takes a lot of tweaking. The library/engine is notorious for being difficult to work with compared to newer alternatives, which is why I wouldn't recommend it as a primary solution nowadays. There's a lot of good content in it, so it's useful to have access to that, but I wouldn't choose it as my bread-and-butter.


I know what you mean, it's pretty clear!


----------



## companyofquail

@gamersensual14 would you mind to post the midi data of your earlier sketch?

i can run it through a few libraries for you with no eq or fx. 
that way you can get an idea of what they do out of the box with your own data.


----------



## Laurin Lenschow

gamersensual14 said:


> Here is everything you need (tell me if something's wrong) -> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1tOkifrPmzaz77dtNHE8Eourqv0QO6sjI?usp=sharing


@companyofquail


----------



## companyofquail

Laurin Lenschow said:


> @companyofquail


thanks, no clue how i missed that!


----------



## gamersensual14

companyofquail said:


> @gamersensual14 would you mind to post the midi data of your earlier sketch?
> 
> i can run it through a few libraries for you with no eq or fx.
> that way you can get an idea of what they do out of the box with your own data.


Hey! I really appreciate it!!



Laurin Lenschow said:


> @companyofquail


Thanks Laurin!


----------



## Trash Panda

Cerberus does not share samples with Jaeger or Nucleus. The orchestral drums were recorded separately by a trio of players and the drum kit is a different session from the one in Nucleus. Don’t get me wrong, I like Cerberus for hybrid stuff, but if I had to choose to spend $300 between it or Damage 2, I’m choosing Damage 2 every time and waiting for a 50% off sale on Cerberus.

Cerberus is literally gran casas, 4 different pitches of toms, 2 snares, clicks, clacks and a drum kit.

Damage 2 has so much more, both in organic and hybrid/sound design.


----------



## Laurin Lenschow

@gamersensual14 I used a Marimba instead of a Harp, as Nucleus does not have one. Every instrument is from Nucleus except for the Tubular Bells, for that I used a patch from CinePerc.

The version with effects sounds almost identical to the one without them as I only applied some EQ to the Horns and Trombones. For both Horns and Trombones I used EQ to cut/lower the frequencies above ~9.5k.

This is without effects:
View attachment Nucleus without FX.mp3


...and this is with effects (/EQ):
View attachment Nucleus with FX.mp3


----------



## Laurin Lenschow

Trash Panda said:


> Don’t get me wrong, I like Cerberus for hybrid stuff, but if I had to choose to spend $300 between it or Damage 2, I’m choosing Damage 2 every time and waiting for a 50% off sale on Cerberus.


I own Cerberus and I agree on it being good but too expensive.


----------



## Laurin Lenschow

gamersensual14 said:


> Now, after what you said, Symphobia 1 and 2 are out. Now, the remaining "pack" would be:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Orchestral Essentials Pack - ProjectSAM
> 
> 
> Get up to scoring speed with the killer cinematic package, combining the must-have essentials of volume 1 with the exciting new additions found in volume 2.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> projectsam.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *or*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Symphobia 3: Lumina - ProjectSAM
> 
> 
> Featuring full orchestra, choir, smaller ensembles and a wide range of guest instruments, Symphobia 3: Lumina dives into the world of fantasy, mystery and fairy tales. Now fully updated with a brand-new design.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> projectsam.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *with*
> https://projectsam.com/libraries/true-strike-pack/
> What's your opinion on that @Laurin Lenschow ? What would you choose? As I've read, Lumina comes with... pretty weird patches... I mean, it seems like it is not supposed to be your typical orchestra.


Orchestral Essentials 1&2 consist of content from the Symphobia and True Strike libraries. I can't say as much about them as about the Symphobias, but I can link you the patch lists so that you can get a generall overview of the content (in case you haven't already):
https://projectsam.com/libraries/orchestral-essentials-1/
https://projectsam.com/libraries/orchestral-essentials-2/
(You can find the patch lists in the "instruments"-section of the product pages)


Symphobia 3 is mostly focused on cartoon and fantasy music, so I would not recommend it as a starting point, even in combination with True Strike. From what I have heard True Strike seems to be pretty good (and great value), but it is more on the classical side of things, so you would have to get a second percussion library that is closer to Damage or Cerberus.
If you are interested in True Strike I recommend this video:


----------



## gamersensual14

Trash Panda said:


> Cerberus is literally gran casas, 4 different pitches of toms, 2 snares, clicks, clacks and a drum kit.
> 
> Damage 2 has so much more, both in organic and hybrid/sound design.





Laurin Lenschow said:


> I own Cerberus and I agree on it being good but too expensive.


Thank you very much for your honest opinion, any other percussion library I should be aware of other than Cerberus and the Damages (1 & 2, by the way which one would you recommend)? Just to be clear, I like hybrid stuff, so I'm not that much interested in *full* "classical, organic" percussion libraries.



Laurin Lenschow said:


> Orchestral Essentials 1&2 consist of content from the Symphobia and True Strike libraries. I can't say as much about them as about the Symphobias, but I can link you the patch lists so that you can get a generall overview od the content (in case you haven't already):
> https://projectsam.com/libraries/orchestral-essentials-1/
> https://projectsam.com/libraries/orchestral-essentials-2/
> (You can find the patch lists in the "instruments"-section of the product pages)
> 
> 
> Symphobia 3 is mostly focused on cartoon and fantasy music, so I would not recommend it as a starting point, even in combination with True Strike. From what I have heard True Strike seems to be pretty good (and great value), but it is more on the classical side of things, so you would have to get a second percussion library that is closer to Damage or Cerberus.


OK, so I've checked more in depth each library page and... what is included is weird, I mean it doesn't give you complete control over the orchestra at all (not with sections neither with ensembles). It just comes with ensembles with only a few strange articulations like "Cinematic FX" but lack "Legato" or "Sustain"... discarded . Also thanks for the perc advice, it is true that it is completely "natural" percussion.

** Also, if anyone has the *Berlin Inspire* *Bundle *I would love to know if you think it can perform well this style I want to create!




Laurin Lenschow said:


> This is without effects:


Great!! That sounded pretty good actually! Liked it! Here are a few questions:
1. Everything is on "Modern" mix right?
2. Are you using the legato on the horns? I know I used sustain but that was because Discover has no legato jajaja (maybe I should add that to the instructions...), I would love to hear how the legato sounds in case you used sustain.

I really liked the violins more than anything so wow. Overall I like how it sounds, very tight, punchy, very modern basically. Although is not that big. Thank you a lot Laurin!!  Lets see how the others compare to Nucleus!


----------



## yiph2

gamersensual14 said:


> Thank you very much for your honest opinion, any other percussion library I should be aware of other than Cerberus and the Damages (1 & 2, by the way which one would you recommend)? Just to be clear, I like hybrid stuff, so I'm not that much interested in *full* "classical, organic" percussion libraries.


If you want hybrid go with Damage 1


----------



## Laurin Lenschow

gamersensual14 said:


> Thank you very much for your honest opinion, any other percussion library I should be aware of other than Cerberus and the Damages (1 & 2, by the way which one would you recommend)? Just to be clear, I like hybrid stuff, so I'm not that much interested in *full* "classical, organic" percussion libraries.


Cerberus is the only hybrid percussion library I own so far, so the expertise I can offer here is rather limited. That said, here are two libraries you might want to look into before you make your final decision (although I believe Damage 1 is probably best for you):

Apocalypse Percussion Elements from Soundiron (I think it is a bit more organic than Damage 1, but it is substantially cheaper)
Ferrum Modern Trailer Percussion from Keepforest (more focused on metallic sounds, but includes other sounds as well)



gamersensual14 said:


> Great!! That sounded pretty good actually! Liked it! Here are a few questions:
> 1. Everything is on "Modern" mix right?
> 2. Are you using the legato on the horns? I know I used sustain but that was because Discover has no legato jajaja (maybe I should add that to the instructions...), I would love to hear how the legato sounds in case you used sustain.


I am happy that you liked it, as I still think that Nucleus is the best starting point for you 
1. No - I actually went with the classical mix (and boosted it in volume), because the harsh frequencies in the high brass and strings are a bit less present in that mix.
2. I am - here is the line without the rest of the orchestra:
View attachment Nucleus - Horns only.mp3

(there are no legato transitions between _all _of the notes, as I left the breaks the way you put them)

...btw, I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but Abbey Road One has no legatos - so that is something you should keep in mind in case you decide to go for an ensemble library.


----------



## from_theashes

gamersensual14 said:


> Damages (1 & 2, by the way which one would you recommend)? Just to be clear, I like hybrid stuff, so I'm not that much interested in *full* "classical, organic" percussion libraries.



Definitely Damage 2! It‘s so much better than 1 and is perfect for cinematic/hybrid.
for Strings/Orchetstra I highly recommend the combination of Albion One and Studio Strings (Pro). You can get both on sale for about 350–400 bucks and they sound amazing together. The Studio Strings are adding definition and separate sections to the Albions ensembles and you can cover so much ground with that combination:


----------



## gamersensual14

Hi guys,


yiph2 said:


> If you want hybrid go with Damage 1





Laurin Lenschow said:


> (although I believe Damage 1 is probably best for you)


OK, so you'll have to pardon me, I try to explain myself as best as I can but it seems that I didn't choose the right word. I'll explain and you choose the label for this jajaja: what I want is *modern, strong, and aggressive percussion*.
That being said, I'm not a trailer composer, so although I like braams, and booms and those things, I'm not into these... "alien-like-super-high-tech-weird-metal-mech" sounds and perc. I hope that made sense.

For example, I love how Cerberus sounds, is that considered hybrid?
After seeing some videos of Heavyocity from Damage 2, it seems like a better fit for me compared to Damage 1, *and* they also included some of the hybrid sounds from Damage 1 right? So I would get the cool perc I'm lloking for and also some hybrid sounds which are great to have.
Also, in the videos *it looks like* Damage 2 is pretty much infinite content, you can do whatever you want with it.



Laurin Lenschow said:


> Apocalypse Percussion Elements from Soundiron (I think it is a bit more organic than Damage 1, but it is substantially cheaper)
> Ferrum Modern Trailer Percussion from Keepforest (more focused on metallic sounds, but includes other sounds as well)


Despite the aforementioned, I like these brands you sent and I checked them out:

Keepforest plugin's only work with the full ver. of Kontakt, so they're not for me.

About Soundiron, it just helpmed dramatically realize how much I love vocals, and I *LOVED* the sound of their vocal plugins, man!!! Didn't like that much the percussion one since it's only an "Essential" version of a bigger plugin which sadly is only availabe for Kontakt Full; whereas the majority of their vocal plugins are for the Free Kontakt Player!! 



from_theashes said:


> Definitely Damage 2! It‘s so much better than 1 and is perfect for cinematic/hybrid.
> for Strings/Orchetstra I highly recommend the combination of Albion One and Studio Strings (Pro). You can get both on sale for about 350–400 bucks and they sound amazing together. The Studio Strings are adding definition and separate sections to the Albions ensembles and you can cover so much ground with that combination:


Thanks for the recommendation! Is that video yours using that comb of Albion ONE and Studio Strings?


----------



## gamersensual14

Laurin Lenschow said:


> I am happy that you liked it, as I still think that Nucleus is the best starting point for you
> 1. No - I actually went with the classical mix (and boosted it in volume), because the harsh frequencies in the high brass and strings are a bit less present in that mix.
> 2. I am - here is the line without the rest of the orchestra:


I see, the legato sounds really good when it's there (I believe it only activates when two notes are next to each other right?).



Laurin Lenschow said:


> ...btw, I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but Abbey Road One has no legatos - so that is something you should keep in mind in case you decide to go for an ensemble library.


Damn, didn't know that. Arrghht how are you supposed to write orchestral music without legatos?


----------



## from_theashes

gamersensual14 said:


> Also, in the videos *it looks like* Damage 2 is pretty much infinite content, you can do whatever you want with it.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the recommendation! Is that video yours using that comb of Albion ONE and Studio Strings?


Damage 2 is the only percussion library you‘ll ever need^^ It has just everything covered (besides super quiet).
yes, in that video I use Albion One, Studio Strings and Damage 2.


----------



## antanasb

from_theashes said:


> Definitely Damage 2! It‘s so much better than 1 and is perfect for cinematic/hybrid.
> for Strings/Orchetstra I highly recommend the combination of Albion One and Studio Strings (Pro). You can get both on sale for about 350–400 bucks and they sound amazing together. The Studio Strings are adding definition and separate sections to the Albions ensembles and you can cover so much ground with that combination:



I would go a bit further and swap the studio strings with the BBC orchestra Core... I think BBC fills the gaps of Albion One very nicely, and provides a lot more flexibility in all terms. And you get the orchestral percussion, which is VERY important to have sometimes... Especially the timpani, glock and triangle.. For me at least... (haha, but really..)

I have this combo and I am very happy with it...


----------



## from_theashes

antanasb said:


> I would go a bit further and swap the studio strings with the BBC orchestra Core... I think BBC fills the gaps of Albion One very nicely, and provides a lot more flexibility in all terms. And you get the orchestral percussion, which is VERY important to have sometimes... Especially the timpani, glock and triangle.. For me at least... (haha, but really..)
> 
> I have this combo and I am very happy with it...


yeah, that would be a good combination too... I just prefer Kontakt over the Spitfire-Sampler.


----------



## Laurin Lenschow

gamersensual14 said:


> what I want is *modern, strong, and aggressive percussion*.
> That being said, I'm not a trailer composer, so although I like braams, and booms and those things, I'm not into these... "alien-like-super-high-tech-weird-metal-mech" sounds and perc.


In that case Damage 2 might indeed be a better fit for you - but like I said, I don't own it, so I might not be the right person to give advice here.



gamersensual14 said:


> Keepforest plugin's only work with the full ver. of Kontakt


That is true for the most part, but it does not apply to Ferrum - this library does work with the free Kontakt Player.
However, if you are not looking for a trailer music suited percussion library, Ferrum probably won't be that interesting to you


----------



## Laurin Lenschow

gamersensual14 said:


> I see, the legato sounds really good when it's there (I believe it only activates when two notes are next to each other right?).


The notes have to overlap - I changed your original midi so that the notes that did not have breaks in between them are overlapping now.


----------



## from_theashes

Laurin Lenschow said:


> In that case Damage 2 might indeed be a better fit for you - but like I said, I don't own it, so I might not be the right person to give advice here.
> 
> 
> That is true for the most part, but it does not apply to Ferrum - this library does work with the free Kontakt Player.
> However, if you are not looking for a trailer music suited percussion library, Ferrum probably won't be that interesting to you


I have the Ferrum Free Edition and it’s nowhere near Damage 2. It’s a nice fx-library but not a dedicated perc library imo


----------



## gamersensual14

from_theashes said:


> Damage 2 is the only percussion library you‘ll ever need^^ It has just everything covered (besides super quiet).


Does it also include any kind of drumkit? Like the Cerberus one for example (which is f*cking mind blowing) -> 



antanasb said:


> I have this combo and I am very happy with it...


That sounds good, but we're trying to pick a library for the orchestral purposes. And that option of Abion ONE + another are two different libraries, the only way I could possibly do that is by not only be given an EDU discount but also use that discount when BOTH libraries are on sale, which is pretty... meh...



Laurin Lenschow said:


> That is true for the most part, but it does not apply to Ferrum - this library does work with the free Kontakt Player.
> However, if you are not looking for a trailer music suited percussion library, Ferrum probably won't be that interesting to you


Damn, I looked at tens of their plugins and the one you sent was the only Kontakt-Player compatible! Sorry... and thank you for having that in mind! 



Laurin Lenschow said:


> The notes have to overlap - I changed your original midi so that the notes that did not have breaks in between them are overlapping now.


I see, that's great!!



from_theashes said:


> I have the Ferrum Free Edition and it’s nowhere near Damage 2. It’s a nice fx-library but not a dedicated perc library imo


And I believe Damage 2, as you said, its super flexible whereas Ferrum is mainly super-hybrid-high-tech sounds focused right?

Thank you very much guys!


----------



## antanasb

gamersensual14 said:


> That sounds good, but we're trying to pick a library for the orchestral purposes. And that option of Abion ONE + another are two different libraries, the only way I could possibly do that is by not only be given an EDU discount but also use that discount when BOTH libraries are on sale, which is pretty... meh...


Well, you want to be able to achieve both -- super aggressive and soft. Then, you said you still want a realistic sound. Also, you want the heavy percussion, but not always. Furthermore, you also want it to be sectioned library... To be able to cover all your needs you will have a very hard time to find just one library...

If you can't wait for the sale -- there's nothing anyone can do here. Personally, I paid 269€ for Albion One and 220€ for BBC orchestra. That sums up to 489€, which is a little bit above what either of the the libraries costs alone, and for that you get A LOT of content -- which is varied, so you have choice -- which is good... (At least in my opinion).


Here is a track I written using only BBC Core:

And if BBC SO Core is not up to your "orchestral purposes", as you mentioned, I really have no idea what will....


----------



## from_theashes

gamersensual14 said:


> Does it also include any kind of drumkit? Like the Cerberus one for example (which is f*cking mind blowing) ->



You could build a kit like that in Damage 2, yes.


----------



## gamersensual14

Hey,



antanasb said:


> That sums up to 489€, which is a little bit above what either of the the libraries costs alone, and for that you get A LOT of content -- which is varied, so you have choice -- which is good... (At least in my opinion).





antanasb said:


> And if BBC SO Core is not up to your "orchestral purposes", as you mentioned, I really have no idea what will....


I know what you mean. The thing that I don't like that much about BBC SO Core is that it sounds super classical, and zero cinematic / modern. That makes sense, since their first demo track is this:


Whereas in Albion ONE you get this:

Which is much closer to what I need. The fault in this one is that it only has ensembles, and as some people had mentioned before, is not the most flexible thing, and you'll end up having to buy section-based libraries appart, leaving the ensemble ones only "for putting down ideas and big chords".

So I need a mix between playability (sections) and the epicness of ensemble libraries, and for now, Nucleus seems to be the best option for that. That's what I meant by orchestral purposes.

Now I'll pick Damage 2 (or any other dedicated perc library) + some vocal plugins (solo & choir) in case they're missing, and then I'll have everything.


After saying that, if I were to buy two libraries, I would probably pick Albion ONE for the ensembles (and for the amount content it seems) and Nucleus for the sections in case I need them, do you think that's a good combo? @Laurin Lenschow 



from_theashes said:


> You could build a kit like that in Damage 2, yes.


Wow, in that case Damage 2 seems like the best aggresive perc plugin ever.


----------



## Laurin Lenschow

gamersensual14 said:


> After saying that, if I were to buy two libraries, I would probably pick Albion ONE for the ensembles (and for the amount content it seems) and Nucleus for the sections in case I need them, do you think that's a good combo? @Laurin Lenschow


I'm not sure if this is the best possible combination... I am certain there will be people contradicting me (which is perfectly fine as this is just my personal opinion after all), but I don't think you would need Albion One that much after buying Nucleus (Nucleus has sections _and _ensemble patches btw). I'm not saying that it would be completely redundant, but you would probably be able to cover more ground by spending the money you would have spent on Albion on other libraries like Damage 2 and/or a dedicated choir library. 
You should also keep in mind that using Orchestral Tools' SINE Player you are able to buy individual instruments from their libraries - so you could buy Nucleus and complement it with instruments from e.g. Ark 1 and/or Inspire 1.


----------



## Trash Panda

Nucleus has sections, ensembles and soloists.


----------



## antanasb

gamersensual14 said:


> Hey,
> 
> 
> 
> I know what you mean. The thing that I don't like that much about BBC SO Core is that it sounds super classical, and zero cinematic / modern. That makes sense, since their first demo track is this:
> 
> 
> Whereas in Albion ONE you get this:
> 
> Which is much closer to what I need. The fault in this one is that it only has ensembles, and as some people had mentioned before, is not the most flexible thing, and you'll end up having to buy section-based libraries appart, leaving the ensemble ones only "for putting down ideas and big chords".
> 
> So I need a mix between playability (sections) and the epicness of ensemble libraries, and for now, Nucleus seems to be the best option for that. That's what I meant by orchestral purposes.
> 
> Now I'll pick Damage 2 (or any other dedicated perc library) + some vocal plugins (solo & choir) in case they're missing, and then I'll have everything.
> 
> 
> After saying that, if I were to buy two libraries, I would probably pick Albion ONE for the ensembles (and for the amount content it seems) and Nucleus for the sections in case I need them, do you think that's a good combo? @Laurin Lenschow
> 
> 
> Wow, in that case Damage 2 seems like the best aggresive perc plugin ever.



Do not get fooled by the "classical" demos of BBC...

It is a very sharp weapon in right hands...


With some sound tweaking it can go long ways to the epicness and provides a solid set of "cinematic" sounds, at least in my opinion...


----------



## from_theashes

gamersensual14 said:


> Hey,
> 
> 
> 
> I know what you mean. The thing that I don't like that much about BBC SO Core is that it sounds super classical, and zero cinematic / modern. That makes sense, since their first demo track is this:
> 
> 
> Whereas in Albion ONE you get this:
> 
> Which is much closer to what I need. The fault in this one is that it only has ensembles, and as some people had mentioned before, is not the most flexible thing, and you'll end up having to buy section-based libraries appart, leaving the ensemble ones only "for putting down ideas and big chords".
> 
> So I need a mix between playability (sections) and the epicness of ensemble libraries, and for now, Nucleus seems to be the best option for that. That's what I meant by orchestral purposes.
> 
> Now I'll pick Damage 2 (or any other dedicated perc library) + some vocal plugins (solo & choir) in case they're missing, and then I'll have everything.
> 
> 
> After saying that, if I were to buy two libraries, I would probably pick Albion ONE for the ensembles (and for the amount content it seems) and Nucleus for the sections in case I need them, do you think that's a good combo? @Laurin Lenschow
> 
> 
> Wow, in that case Damage 2 seems like the best aggresive perc plugin ever.



To be honest I would just start with Albion One and Damage 2 and see how far you can get with it.
Nucleus and Albion are pretty close soundwise... but Nucleus lacks a lot of articulations.
I would rather pick a dedicated string library to compliment Albion One for sections like Spitfire Studio Strings, Symphonic Strings, Chamber Strings, Audio Imperia Areia (lite) or Cinematic Studio Strings.


----------



## Laurin Lenschow

from_theashes said:


> Nucleus and Albion are pretty close soundwise... but Nucleus lacks a lot of articulations.


Albion One on the other hand lacks a lot of instruments 
Solo Violin, Solo Cello, Solo Flute, Solo Oboe, Solo Trumpet, Solo French Horn, Timpani, Marimba, Glockenspiel, Xylophone, Choir...


----------



## from_theashes

Laurin Lenschow said:


> Albion One on the other hand lacks a lot of instruments
> Solo Violin, Solo Cello, Solo Flute, Solo Oboe, Solo Trumpet, Solo French Horn, Timpani, Marimba, Glockenspiel, Xylophone, Choir...


Sure xD 
In the end it comes down to sound and „what do you need?“. But I definitely wouldn’t buy both to start with^^


----------



## from_theashes

gamersensual14 said:


> Hey,
> 
> 
> 
> I know what you mean. The thing that I don't like that much about BBC SO Core is that it sounds super classical, and zero cinematic / modern. That makes sense, since their first demo track is this:
> 
> 
> Whereas in Albion ONE you get this:
> 
> Which is much closer to what I need. The fault in this one is that it only has ensembles, and as some people had mentioned before, is not the most flexible thing, and you'll end up having to buy section-based libraries appart, leaving the ensemble ones only "for putting down ideas and big chords".
> 
> So I need a mix between playability (sections) and the epicness of ensemble libraries



The secret is "layering" libraries to get an epic/cinematic sound. So don't look at two libraries with a similar approach (like Albion AND Nucleus), but look for something that can complement a cinematic library. That way you can layer both to get an even bigger sound and be prepared for a wider range of compositions.


----------



## gamersensual14

Laurin Lenschow said:


> I'm not sure if this is the best possible combination... I am certain there will be people contradicting me (which is perfectly fine as this is just my personal opinion after all), but I don't think you would need Albion One that much after buying Nucleus (Nucleus has sections _and _ensemble patches btw). I'm not saying that it would be completely redundant, but you would probably be able to cover more ground by spending the money you would have spent on Albion on other libraries like Damage 2 and/or a dedicated choir library.
> You should also keep in mind that using Orchestral Tools' SINE Player you are able to buy individual instruments from their libraries - so you could buy Nucleus and complement it with instruments from e.g. Ark 1 and/or Inspire 1.





Trash Panda said:


> Nucleus has sections, ensembles and soloists.





from_theashes said:


> Sure xD
> In the end it comes down to sound and „what do you need?“. But I definitely wouldn’t buy both to start with^^





antanasb said:


> With some sound tweaking it can go long ways to the epicness and provides a solid set of "cinematic" sounds, at least in my opinion...





from_theashes said:


> The secret is "layering" libraries to get an epic/cinematic sound. So don't look at two libraries with a similar approach (like Albion AND Nucleus), but look for something that can complement a cinematic library. That way you can layer both to get an even bigger sound and be prepared for a wider range of compositions.


I've also found another example of the style I like with BBC SO:


OK, so after all of your suggestions I've made a decision, because I think I have to make a decision here, and that is that *I don't want ensemble libraries*. That way we can choose a path from now.

Why? Because of what I (and some of you) said earlier, I don't want to feel limited because I don't have control over each instrument. You heard the track I wrote as an example, it starts really minimal and then sections start to join, it is way easier to do that with sections than with ensembles. Also, I don't play the piano with both hands so having the ensembles won't help me with getting better ideas, as, in my case, I don't compose by playing with two hands on a piano.

So because of that, although I really like Albion ONE's sound, I have to discard it. I mean I'm forcing myself to do so because if I don't I'm going to be undecided forever, also wasting your time for nothing, and that's the last thing I want.

So, *now*, we have only *2* main libraries that can do what I want to: *AI's Nucleus & Spitfire Audio's BBC SO Core*. Then I would get a perc library (strong, like Damage 2 and/or Cerberus) + vocal libraries, so don't worry about that when comparing these 2!

*Now, if you want to propose another library (has to have lots of instruments, section-based, for the free Kontakt Player) is now or never before we start looking at these 2.*

If no more libraries are proposed, then my next message will be like a side-by-side comparison between these 2 so we can decide what is better for my purpose.

Thank you everyone!


----------



## Timothy Schmidt

gamersensual14 said:


> I've also found another example of the style I like with BBC SO:
> 
> 
> OK, so after all of your suggestions I've made a decision, because I think I have to make a decision here, and that is that *I don't want ensemble libraries*. That way we can choose a path from now.
> 
> Why? Because of what I (and some of you) said earlier, I don't want to feel limited because I don't have control over each instrument. You heard the track I wrote as an example, it starts really minimal and then sections start to join, it is way easier to do that with sections than with ensembles. Also, I don't play the piano with both hands so having the ensembles won't help me with getting better ideas, as, in my case, I don't compose by playing with two hands on a piano.
> 
> So because of that, although I really like Albion ONE's sound, I have to discard it. I mean I'm forcing myself to do so because if I don't I'm going to be undecided forever, also wasting your time for nothing, and that's the last thing I want.
> 
> So, *now*, we have only *2* main libraries that can do what I want to: *AI's Nucleus & Spitfire Audio's BBC SO Core*. Then I would get a perc library (strong, like Damage 2 and/or Cerberus) + vocal libraries, so don't worry about that when comparing these 2!
> 
> *Now, if you want to propose another library (has to have lots of instruments, section-based, for the free Kontakt Player) is now or never before we start looking at these 2.*
> 
> If no more libraries are proposed, then my next message will be like a side-by-side comparison between these 2 so we can decide what is better for my purpose.
> 
> Thank you everyone!



Hi,

I've been following this discussion and think we have a lot in common in terms of our approach to sample libraries. I've been composing orchestral music for years but only really got into VI's as recently as last spring, and I was blown away by the amount of choice composers have at this point! I'm very frugal though and needed to figure out exactly what kind of sound I wanted and what options fit that sound before I bought anything significant. I too ended up at Nucleus vs. BBCSO Core and spent months debating which of them to get... until some sales rolled around and I ultimately got both. Seeing as I also wanted to maximize my purchases and still ended up with 3 (!) core all-in-ones, I hope my following reasons can help you make your choice(s):

Why I bought Nucleus

- Sound. Ever since I found this library, I found it to be my favorite sound of the bunch. I think sound is criteria #1 in choosing a library: if you love the sound, you'll work around other limitations. Nucleus definitely has what I'd call the "modern cinematic" sound, the kind of sound that cuts through a dense mix and blends well with electronic elements.
- Individual sections. I really like the sounds of most competing all-in-ones, even if they are quite different, but the ensemble nature of libraries like Albion ONE and MA1 just doesn't work for me. I too prefer to write independent section lines for the level of control that gives.
- Instrumentation. Nucleus is modelled after a standard orchestra, which to me means moderately-sized sections and organic (including some tonal) percussion. It also has individual instruments and choir sections, which I had no interest in buying separately at the time due to the infrequency that I would use them.
- Legatos. I'm not a legato fan-boy, but I recognize the necessity of legato for certain kinds of writing, and good legato at that. Nucleus includes legato for all typical melody-carrying instruments, and it's far more capable than one would expect from a "starter" library such as this.
- GUI. This is totally subjective - I just like the interface. It's clean, straightforward, and does everything I need an interface to do. Sample start feature is also super useful.

Why I bought BBCSO Core

- Sound. This library is a whole other kind of the orchestra, the "classic symphonic" sound that you would hear in a concert hall. Its dynamics favor the softer end, and its character is warm, rounded, and present. This library is intended to sound like a real orchestra and is honestly pretty unparalleled in terms of its cohesiveness of sound (real players that really play together).
- Articulations. BBCSO's biggest objective advantage over Nucleus (and all its similarly priced competitors, frankly) is its diverse catalog of playing techniques. All instruments include legatos and various kinds of longs and shorts, with some (especially the strings) including rather unusual articulations. The depth of sampling variety here allows for greater experimentation.
- Individual sections. These are a must for a symphonic orchestra library, as orchestras are historically the most complex ensembles to write for in Western tradition. One needs access to every section and as many individual players as possible if he/she is to emulate a true symphonic piece.
- Instrumentation. BBCSO is of course the entirety of the real BBC Symphony Orchestra, so you get all the instruments that they typically have on payroll. This includes solo instruments for all sections except strings and bass trombone, something few libraries offer at this price point.
- Upgrade path. If I ever want even more instruments or would like to delve into microphone positions, owning this library makes one of the most comprehensive libraries with those things much cheaper. I don't know if I'll take that upgrade at this point, but it's an option I have for the future.

So I came to see Nucleus and BBCSO Core, while similarly priced products with similar target markets, as pretty contrasting libraries. They have very different strengths, the usefulness of which you'll have to weigh yourself if you really can't get both. I determined that since I write both hybrid and symphonic music, libraries aimed at both styles were of immense value to me. You can certainly have a go at symphonic music with Nucleus or at hybrid music with BBCSO Core, as both convey the orchestra quite convincingly, but these applications would not take advantage of what the libraries do best.

FWIW, I think Damage 2 is your best bet for a percussion library. I went with PercX before I knew Damage 2 was going to be a thing, and while it's served me really well these last few months, it's undeniable that Damage 2 has the most depth of any percussion library on the market.

As for that third all-in-one I mentioned, I got Albion NEO for chamber-sized and texture-based music. It completed for me something I call the "Orchestral Scoring Triangle", which I threw out here as I was researching libraries last year. 

- Timothy


----------



## jcrosby

@gamersensual14 Im going to piggyback off of Timothy's reply above based on your original post.

Nucleus and Damage 2 would be my vote as well. They sound fantastic and have very straightforward, well though out UI's that let you get what you need out of each of them straight away. Cerberus is cool, but Nucleus has the nuts and bolts from Cerberus you'd probably use most frequently anyway, so you'd get more milage pairing Nucleus with Damage 2 for a broader palette...

You also mentioned an interest in some basic 'hybrid' sound design instruments. This is actually where I would recommend Albion. While it's an ensemble library, (and middle of the road as orchestra libraries go IMO), ironically it's great for the opposite reason why people tend to suggest it. It has a killer bank of hybrid synth/bass/atmosphere patches all sourced from orchestra. It also has a pretty great sound design engine (the eDNA engine).

Albion also has some solid percussion kits that can be stacked with Nucelus's percussion for the effect you're after. In particular the Easter Island kit has some huge organic sub booms. The XXL and Darwin kits have some nice hard hitting organic drums, and there's an excellent collection of cymbals, swells, and scraped cymbals/tams split into 4 discrete patches.

In terms of braams, and 'hybrid' instruments in general.... Anyone can make these. It really isn't complicated at all. Plus, all of the synthetic elements in Albion are from orchestra giving you plenty to work with outside of adding any of your own effects. Nucleus also comes with a small collection of pads and drones... (Quite small, 20 or less) However every single one of them not only stand on their own, they're excellent starting points to turn into something else.

Don't fall into the trap of buying a library for every sound category if you don't have to. Niche libraries libraries like Keepforest/Ferrum are useful when you have deadlines and can afford it... But knowing how to flip existing sounds into new ones will ultimately get you further... If you ever consider dipping your toe into the trailer library world at some point, flipping existing samples into new sounds is an essential skill to have... I've turned Nucleus pads into braams, pulses, atmospheres, pings/sonar, even heavily filtered basses ... It's pretty simple actually. Even better, it makes work fun 

Anyway... Not to go off on a tangent... Just think Albion's actually quite useful for the opposite reason why it tends to get recommended. It's actually a great hybrid library, and gives you a whole other set of source material to work from in the context of 'hybridzing' instruments yourself...

PM me and I can link you to a trailer track I did that used only Nucleus and Albion, nothing else at all...

Best of luck wherever you land... Cheers
Justin


----------



## gamersensual14

Hi everyone,

I've read again the complete thread to assure I'm not missing anything, and this is what we've got:

*Orchestra *(only one)
Nucleus
Albion ONE
Metropolis Ark 1 & 2 (complete or individual patches from each one)
BBC SO Core

*Percussion*
Damage 2
Cerberus (only if there's a big sale)

*Vocals & Choir*
Strezov Sampling Choir Essentials
Soundiron Plugins (stunning solo vocals & choir (imo), if someone has plugins from these people let me know your thoughts!)

The percussion and vocal plugins seem to be decided, and I'm really happy with the decision.

Now, orchestra-wise, the above plugins are the ones that got recommended the most (in order from up to down).

Here are my thoughts on each plugin, let me know, specially if you own them, if what I believe is right:

* *Nucleus*: The most recommended hands-down.

PROS: Individual instrument patches, 3 dynamic layers (for sections), 5 round robins max (thank you @Timothy Schmidt @Trash Panda ), sounds cinematic and stunning, includes soloists + choir.
CONS: Doesn't have that many articulations.

* *Albion ONE*: In the last post I said I discarded it, and I still believe I should do so. Still, here are my thoughts on it.

PROS: It's sound is amazing, it has an inmense quantity of FX and precussion I would actually use. 3 dynamic layers, 4 round robins, it includes a piano??
CONS: Only has ensembles, lacks solo instruments & choir; because of the ensembles, when writting something complex it sounds too *thicc* and muddy.

* *Metropolis Ark 1 & 2*: The monumental and deep pair.

PROS: Sounds both massive & quiet, I've read that it has +6 round robins (Ark 1), 6 velocity layers for perc (Ark 1), includes choir.
CONS: Ensemble-based, 2 dynamic layers for most patches (Ark 1), super expensive compared to the other options, I really don't like the layout on their page neither SINE Player (I find it very confusing), weird instruments included, some of them are pairs, other octaves, other ensembles...

* *BBC SO Core*: Sounds too classical but has lots of great features.

PROS: Individual instrument patches, 4 dynamic layers, 5 round robins, includes every instrument I can think of + soloists except strings + harp, has every articulation I can think of; when on sale, costs half of the others.
CONS: Doesn't sound cinematic out of the box since it is not intended to do so.

What is your opinion on those? I'm sure I'm missing lots of things, feel free to complete my PROS and CONS with yours! 

Now, @Timothy Schmidt & @jcrosby thank you so much for you extensive and wise advice! I would love to know your opinion on what I just wrote and also would love to hear anything you have made with the above plugins (jcrosby I sent you what I believe is a PM, sorry if you haven't received it).

Here are some quick notes of what I believe:

I won't be getting the Metropolis Bundle complete, that's for sure, the thing is that @Laurin Lenschow suggested a couple times that maybe I could pick random instruments in case I feel I need them more than the complete libraries. I find it a very good advice, but that's for the future.

I'll wait for your opinions and tracks!  Thank you guys!


----------



## Trash Panda

For Nucleus, the number of dynamic layers depends on the patch. Solo instruments have 1 or 2 dynamic layers, sections and ensembles typically have 3. I believe some of the percussion patches have more.

Long articulations have only 1 round robin, shorts have up to 3 or 4 as I recall. Again, I think some of the percussion instruments have more. There are enough to where it isn't an issue.

As for number of articulations, if you stack a staccatissimo/spiccato patch with a sustain patch on the same MIDI channel, this combined with other articulations in the library will cover 95% of what you need. That Star Wars theme I did was mocked up in that manner.


----------



## Timothy Schmidt

gamersensual14 said:


> * *Nucleus*: The most recommended hands-down.
> 
> PROS: Individual instrument patches, *???* dynamic layers, *???* round robins (maybe @audioimperia @Trash Panda can enlighten us with this), sounds cinematic and stunning, includes soloists + choir.
> CONS: Doesn't have that many articulations.


As far as I know: 9 dynamic layers for drum kit, 4 for other percussion, 3 for sections, 1 for solos, and 5 round robins for all shorts, 1 for longs. I bought Nucleus when Areia came out so I could buy Areia half-price and fill out the articulations of the string section. I'd love more in winds/brass, but as @Trash Panda said, you can cover 95% of music in the style Nucleus is made for with the included articulations. 


Trash Panda said:


> As for number of articulations, if you stack a staccatissimo/spiccato patch with a sustain patch on the same MIDI channel, this combined with other articulations in the library will cover 95% of what you need. That Star Wars theme I did was mocked up in that manner.


I use the performance patches for marcato-style stuff. Works well in most cases!



gamersensual14 said:


> * *BBC SO Core*: Sounds too classical but has lots of great features.
> 
> PROS: Individual instrument patches, 4 dynamic layers, 5 round robins, includes every instrument I can think of + soloists except strings + harp, has every articulation I can think of; when on sale, costs half of the others.
> CONS: Doesn't sound cinematic out of the box since it is not intended to do so.


I wouldn't say it's _too_ classical, just that's what it is.  It's actually three dynamic layers max in strings, winds, and brass; percussion might have more. 5 round robins for most shorts, though a few specialty articulations have fewer. It does include a harp, and a quite good one at that. Price to content ratio is the best of any library under $1000 when it's 40% off.



gamersensual14 said:


> maybe I could pick random instruments in case I feel I need them more than the complete libraries.


Absolutely! I bolstered the atonal percussion of both Nucleus and BBCSO Core by grabbing the percussion menu from Berlin Inspire 1 and have considered taking a similar strategy with the brass. Haven't yet because I haven't needed to and I guess I'm holding out for expansions by AI themselves (nothing confirmed, just hoping).



gamersensual14 said:


> Now, @Timothy Schmidt & @jcrosby thank you so much for you extensive and wise advice! I would love to know your opinion on what I just wrote and also would love to hear anything you have made with the above plugins


No problem, glad I could help! As for examples with the libraries, I've so far completed a rendering of string pieces of mine with Areia ("Nucleus+") and BBCSO that I shared on the forum here. As I detail in the post, they blend quite well in spite of their differing sounds! Areia adds definition and BBCSO depth. Other than those, I've completed one piece with mostly Nucleus (brass, winds, perc) and one with mostly BBCSO (percussion). I've got lots more plans for the libraries in the near future that I'm in the midst of working on. 

- Timothy


----------



## antanasb

Honestly, I think you are way overthinking this... 

Just grab the one which sounds best to you and seems the most reasonable deal for you and start making music instead of pondering over the number of dynamic layers and round robins... Inevitably, as time goes along and your musical and technical abilities develop you will want to extend the sonic palette anyways...

I really wouldn't care if a particular library has one round robin more or if it is the most flexible in the world if the sound does not inspire me. That's why I would not buy Nucleus myself, even if it technically is superior to Albion One.. There is something in the sound of Nucleus that makes me not to like it -- particularly in the high end range of the frequencies and the spatial information present in the sound. It feels very top end heavy and somewhat claustrophobic, with everything very close to the center suggesting a quite small recording space, but then having ample reverb makes it even more weird to me. On top of that everything sounds FFF-ish in that library, even the delicate passages (at least according to the sound demos on Audio Imperia's website).

A lot of people are praising Infinite series by Aaron Venture also, but I just can't stand the sound of e.g. Infinite Brass, even though it provides unparalleled flexibility with giving you access to 29 individual brass instruments, out of which you build your own ensembles...

To each his own, I guess..

Either way, I think, that good musical ideas are much stronger than good samples by themselves in the end. Despite that, I wish you luck with your choice having so much opinions and experiences shared here, whatever the choice is!


----------



## from_theashes

antanasb said:


> Honestly, I think you are way overthinking this...


This! :D 
You wil surely end up buying multiple libraries over time, so just pick the one to start with that has the best balance (for you!) between "best sound" and "most content you need" or combine two... depending on budget.


----------



## gamersensual14

@Trash Panda @Timothy Schmidt thank you a lot for this information! I don't know how you know that as I looked into their page / videos etc and couldn't find it jajaja.

Yes, for me the articulations are not a big problem as I won't be making experimental stuff for now, I'm sure Nucleus has me covered in that matter.



Timothy Schmidt said:


> It's actually three dynamic layers max in strings, winds, and brass; percussion might have more.


On this page they say "up to 4"... omg -> https://spitfireaudio.zendesk.com/h...2357797/Screenshot_2020-10-26_at_11.47.18.png



Timothy Schmidt said:


> I've so far completed a rendering of string pieces of mine with Areia ("Nucleus+") and BBCSO that I shared on the forum here. As I detail in the post, they blend quite well in spite of their differing sounds! Areia adds definition and BBCSO depth.


I've heard that and if the high / detailed strings are Areia (and because of that part of Nucleus) I'm very happy with those.



Timothy Schmidt said:


> Other than those, I've completed one piece with mostly Nucleus (brass, winds, perc) and one with mostly BBCSO (percussion). I've got lots more plans for the libraries in the near future that I'm in the midst of working on.


I've cheked them out and they sound good! I also found this person's @Tom Hawk YT channel on where he has lots of great music made with only Nucleus:


(This one below is made with mostly AI plugins)


They sound great to me.

He also had a video about ensembles vs sections which just reaffirmed what we have discussed here.
In case you're reading this Tom, do you have BBC SO Core? Would yuou use it for cinematic music?



antanasb said:


> Honestly, I think you are way overthinking this...





from_theashes said:


> This! :D


OK OK I know...



antanasb said:


> It feels very top end heavy and somewhat claustrophobic, with everything very close to the center suggesting a quite small recording space, but then having ample reverb makes it even more weird to me.


Couldn't this be fixed by applying EQ for the freq (although that is changing the sound of the library) and playing with the mic positions for it to sound wider (in case it has that option)?




antanasb said:


> On top of that everything sounds FFF-ish in that library, even the delicate passages (at least according to the sound demos on Audio Imperia's website).


Do you still think that after listening to Tom's tracks attached above?



antanasb said:


> Despite that, I wish you luck with your choice having so much opinions and experiences shared here, whatever the choice is!


Yes, thank you! I believe it's pretty clear to this point, I just want to gather as much information as I can so I won't regret having bought something I won't be using, as I'm a student and don't have a stable income.


----------



## gamersensual14

Well I believe it's pretty decided, here's the result!

*Nucleus (Orchestra) + Damage 2 (Percussion) + Strezov Sampling Choir Essentials & Soundiron Plugins (Vocals & Choir)*

Optional libraries are: Orchestral Tools patches in case they come in handy and Cerberus if there's a big sale.

I can't put every name of every person that has contributed in this thread here, but I thank you all immensely!


----------



## companyofquail

Congratulations. Excited to hear what you end up doing with your purchases.


----------



## Laurin Lenschow

companyofquail said:


> Congratulations. Excited to hear what you end up doing with your purchases.


+1


----------



## antanasb

gamersensual14 said:


> They sound great to me.


Sorry, really not my cup of tea, really... Too hyped for me with those annoying ever prominent high frequencies and too up-front and close sound...

For example, I dig this sound of BBC Core way, way more:


I bet, that having the professional version with the mics, the sound could be even nicer... I think, that the person who did the mock-up could have added some legato in the clarinet lines instead of going all staccato and the result would have been better, but it still is very nice I think...

Honestly, it is even quite close to the actual sound of the cue:


But hey, it is good to have different opinions and tastes right?



gamersensual14 said:


> Couldn't this be fixed by applying EQ for the freq (although that is changing the sound of the library) and playing with the mic positions for it to sound wider (in case it has that option)?


I am afraid, that you can't really alter the sound with the EQ that much without it starting to sound unnatural.. I would put more hopes on different mics, as they can alter the sound DRASTICALLY while still sounding very natural...

Either way, congrats with the decision! (And maybe purchase already?) Eager to hear how the combination sounds!

Cheers!


----------



## gamersensual14

Hi everyone! I was listening to the demos of Nucleus (really *LOVE* all the "Nucleus Only" demos damn) and noticed one thing I would like to discuss (don't worry the decision of the orchestra is made).

Here, in the *choir* demo, I hear a *terrible*, but I mean, *TERRIBLE* noise / harsh freq / mic fault or something like that, here it is: 

*You can clearly hear it in 0:11 and 0:29*, but I mean it's louder than the choir.

Can anyone confirm is this choir is actually useful? Does it happen in only certain notes? Can this be fixed with EQ (I believe so)? Is there any other patch with this kind of problem I should be worried about? Does @audioimperia know about this and plan to change it?

Thank you!


----------



## Trash Panda

Maybe my ears are too old or worn out, but I don’t hear anything like what you’re describing. If it’s really high up in the frequency range, I imagine an aggressive low pass filter somewhere above 10k can tame it.

The choir in my Bloodborne cover uses the Nucleus choir. It’s useful if all you need is for it to do simple things like ooh’s, ah’s and stacatissimo syllables.


----------



## companyofquail

i think i hear what you are hearing in those 2 examples and i am pretty sure it is just part of the recording and i do not think it is unintentional. you could easily remove it with eq.


----------



## Tom Hawk

gamersensual14 said:


> @Trash Panda @Timothy Schmidt thank you a lot for this information! I don't know how you know that as I looked into their page / videos etc and couldn't find it jajaja.
> 
> Yes, for me the articulations are not a big problem as I won't be making experimental stuff for now, I'm sure Nucleus has me covered in that matter.
> 
> 
> On this page they say "up to 4"... omg -> https://spitfireaudio.zendesk.com/h...2357797/Screenshot_2020-10-26_at_11.47.18.png
> 
> 
> I've heard that and if the high / detailed strings are Areia (and because of that part of Nucleus) I'm very happy with those.
> 
> 
> I've cheked them out and they sound good! I also found this person's @Tom Hawk YT channel on where he has lots of great music made with only Nucleus:
> 
> 
> (This one below is made with mostly AI plugins)
> 
> 
> They sound great to me.
> 
> He also had a video about ensembles vs sections which just reaffirmed what we have discussed here.
> In case you're reading this Tom, do you have BBC SO Core? Would yuou use it for cinematic music?
> 
> 
> 
> OK OK I know...
> 
> 
> Couldn't this be fixed by applying EQ for the freq (although that is changing the sound of the library) and playing with the mic positions for it to sound wider (in case it has that option)?
> 
> 
> 
> Do you still think that after listening to Tom's tracks attached above?
> 
> 
> Yes, thank you! I believe it's pretty clear to this point, I just want to gather as much information as I can so I won't regret having bought something I won't be using, as I'm a student and don't have a stable income.



Hi there! 

I didn't see your comments until now, but to answer your question; I don't have BBCSO. 

How are you finding Nucleus & all the other libraries that you picked up?


----------



## antanasb

gamersensual14 said:


> Hi everyone! I was listening to the demos of Nucleus (really *LOVE* all the "Nucleus Only" demos damn) and noticed one thing I would like to discuss (don't worry the decision of the orchestra is made).
> 
> Here, in the *choir* demo, I hear a *terrible*, but I mean, *TERRIBLE* noise / harsh freq / mic fault or something like that, here it is:
> 
> *You can clearly hear it in 0:11 and 0:29*, but I mean it's louder than the choir.
> 
> Can anyone confirm is this choir is actually useful? Does it happen in only certain notes? Can this be fixed with EQ (I believe so)? Is there any other patch with this kind of problem I should be worried about? Does @audioimperia know about this and plan to change it?
> 
> Thank you!



No library is perfect in all areas...

Despite that, as you already have the Nucleus, do you actually experience anything like this while you are actually using the choir?


----------



## gamersensual14

Hey everyone! I don't know who said I have already picked them up, as I haven't yet.

About the choir, I showed the demo to a friend that is actually studying to become a producer and sound engineer and he said that he heard what I meant, but that he didn't find those frequencies annoying.

I was really surprised by that but it seems that here too nobody seems to be blown away by the terrible "noise whistle" I hear. As @companyofquail said, it might even be intentional (which I wouldn't understand), but it can probably be solved with EQ so it's not a deal breaker (I believe I used that expression correctly).

Also, now that you just came in @Tom Hawk What's your opinion on AI plugins (since you seem to have most of them) and the decision we all came to (which is post #109)?

Also one more thing, do you know if the EDU discount can be combined with sales? They say in their "Help" page:

"We do indeed offer a 20% EDU discount for students and teachers. To apply for the discount please send us a picture of your valid student/teacher ID to [email protected]. Please note that EDU discounts cannot be combined with other discounts which includes pre-sale and introductory pricing for new releases. The EDU license shares the same terms with a regular license and are not restricting in any way."

So I can't combine it with for example Areia's introductory price, but what does pre-sale mean?

Thank you!


----------



## antanasb

I also do not find them overwhelming. My best guess would that there is some digital clipping/amplifier-speaker distortion on your end. Try listening using other equipment?


----------



## Laurin Lenschow

gamersensual14 said:


> Also one more thing, do you know if the EDU discount can be combined with sales? They say in their "Help" page:
> 
> "We do indeed offer a 20% EDU discount for students and teachers. To apply for the discount please send us a picture of your valid student/teacher ID to [email protected]. Please note that EDU discounts cannot be combined with other discounts which includes pre-sale and introductory pricing for new releases. The EDU license shares the same terms with a regular license and are not restricting in any way."
> 
> So I can't combine it with for example Areia's introductory price, but what does pre-sale mean?


I'm not sure, what pre-sale means - however, I think the gist of this is, that you can not combine the EDU discount with any other discount/sale they may be offering. 
If you want to save money and have the patience I recommend waiting until Black Friday. Almost every library you can think of (excluding the ones that have been released very recently) will be discounted by about 30-60%.


----------



## Tom Hawk

gamersensual14 said:


> Hey everyone! I don't know who said I have already picked them up, as I haven't yet.
> 
> About the choir, I showed the demo to a friend that is actually studying to become a producer and sound engineer and he said that he heard what I meant, but that he didn't find those frequencies annoying.
> 
> I was really surprised by that but it seems that here too nobody seems to be blown away by the terrible "noise whistle" I hear. As @companyofquail said, it might even be intentional (which I wouldn't understand), but it can probably be solved with EQ so it's not a deal breaker (I believe I used that expression correctly).
> 
> Also, now that you just came in @Tom Hawk What's your opinion on AI plugins (since you seem to have most of them) and the decision we all came to (which is post #109)?
> 
> Also one more thing, do you know if the EDU discount can be combined with sales? They say in their "Help" page:
> 
> "We do indeed offer a 20% EDU discount for students and teachers. To apply for the discount please send us a picture of your valid student/teacher ID to [email protected]. Please note that EDU discounts cannot be combined with other discounts which includes pre-sale and introductory pricing for new releases. The EDU license shares the same terms with a regular license and are not restricting in any way."
> 
> So I can't combine it with for example Areia's introductory price, but what does pre-sale mean?
> 
> Thank you!


Hey apologies for not seeing this sooner! So to be completely honest, I have received a lot of Audio Imperia libraries for free as I do some freelance work with them on content creation, walkthroughs, beta testing, etc.

I just wanted to be transparent about that if you/anyone might want to get other opinions due to some sort of bias on my part (which is understandable)  

Anyway, I really enjoy using AI's libraries & they're in my main template with other virtual instruments.

I'm not sure what you mean about that "noise" in the choir, perhaps that's the breathy frequencies you are talking about? Either way, I don't find that to be an issue and I can sculpt the sound a bit with EQ when needed. 

Regarding sales & EDU, I'm not sure if those stack or not, best to send an email to [email protected] about that. 

Hope that helps in some way


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## RogiervG

antanasb said:


> Sorry, really not my cup of tea, really... Too hyped for me with those annoying ever prominent high frequencies and too up-front and close sound...
> 
> For example, I dig this sound of BBC Core way, way more:
> 
> 
> I bet, that having the professional version with the mics, the sound could be even nicer... I think, that the person who did the mock-up could have added some legato in the clarinet lines instead of going all staccato and the result would have been better, but it still is very nice I think...
> 
> Honestly, it is even quite close to the actual sound of the cue:
> 
> 
> But hey, it is good to have different opinions and tastes right?
> 
> 
> I am afraid, that you can't really alter the sound with the EQ that much without it starting to sound unnatural.. I would put more hopes on different mics, as they can alter the sound DRASTICALLY while still sounding very natural...
> 
> Either way, congrats with the decision! (And maybe purchase already?) Eager to hear how the combination sounds!
> 
> Cheers!



indeed, i too dig bbcso better. it has more character, a more authentic sound


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