# LPX - Articulation Editor - UXD concept



## samphony (Jan 22, 2016)

here is an idea I had about Logic and how it could handle articulations.


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## stonzthro (Jan 22, 2016)

I like it - esp. the floating window!


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## samphony (Jan 22, 2016)

Maybe anyone interested can vote and I'll forward the result. 4 people is better than nothing


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## Tatu (Jan 22, 2016)

This looks very promising and as if built into Logic (IMO - compared to all alternatives). Nice work!


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## mc_deli (Jan 22, 2016)

Really nice work...

I like the idea of a nice interface to input keyswitches and be able to translate key switches to midi channels.

But...
Where is the visual feedback about what artic is currently in use?

In this example you would see different colored midi notes in the keyswitching range in the piano roll (as you do know if you use e.g. SS2) and you wouldn't see anything in the main window, right?

I think an artic solution should have clearer visual feedback in the windows. This is why, of the available current options, I like to see artic changes in an automation lane.

If the Logic artic systems showed e.g. artic changes - named clearly, not just colors - in a controller lane, so that it could be shown under the piano roll or in the step editor, now that would be an interesting direction. I don't know how Cubase handles this.


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## samphony (Jan 22, 2016)

mc_deli said:


> Really nice work...
> 
> I like the idea of a nice interface to input keyswitches and be able to translate key switches to midi channels.
> 
> ...




In my mockup the white arrow will follow playback and indicate which articulation is active.


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## mc_deli (Jan 22, 2016)

samphony said:


> In my mockup the white arrow will follow playback and indicate which articulation is active.


Yes I see that. I think a solution should show visual feedback with the notes - ideally in the piano roll, or then in some kind or horizontal form with the notes... I guess the ideal for me would be have to a horizontal articulation lane that floats over/under the piano roll not unlike the way an automation lanes appears to float greyed out when in the main window when you open automation... something around there... if I had an answer I'd say it


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## Vik (Jan 22, 2016)

Logic definitely needs a proper way to deal with articulation control.
I'll definitely have a look at your suggestion, meanwhile – here are some of the things I find most important should Logic ever get something like Expression Maps/proper articulation control:

•It should not be dependent on importing any objects eg. in the Environment.

•It should let us set up a global "master" map which defines which controllers we want to use to control all relevant parameters (eg CC#3 controls vibrato), and the rest of the hard work should be taken care of automatically - in the sense that if I set my hardware controller to send out CC3 messages with the fader I want to use to control vibrato, Logic should understand that I want this as a global solution (for all songs and all virtual instruments)*, and automatically convert my CC3 messages to whatever CC messages each of my sample library use as a default for vibrato. 

•It should not in any way interfere with the use of MIDI Channels to control polyphony in the score editor.

• It should also let us freely draw articulation automation curves, using automation and MIDI Draw, and the concept should be smart enough to understand what I want to to do, so I don't end up with two sets of curves for eg Dynamics (with the severe side effects this will have).

• Likewise, if I want to add or edit automation using the on screen sliders in my Kontakt libraries, I should be able to this freely (using MIDI Draw and Automation) without ending up with two different sets of eg Dynamics curves. 

• I should be able to add the word (eg.) "Pizz" in score, and use that as a method to change articulation.

• A good solution should offer the ability to select any amount of notes, *in any editor*, and select articulations for these notes (by name, eg "Pizzicato") from a submenu.

• There should probably be some kind of Apple Articulation Protocol, which all producers of sample libraries could support in their products – already at launch. 

Also: sometimes one wants to add eg. a trill symbol to a note, but there are many ways to play trills and other ornaments. Therefore, it would be great if on could synchronise what we look at in the score editor with what we hear during playback, by being able to record or program a custom trill into a note when needed. This could eg. be done in the Note Attributes window, if it contained a record button or a mini event list. 

If your suggested solution is compatible with these ideas, I'm all in.


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## mc_deli (Jan 22, 2016)

samphony said:


> In my mockup the white arrow will follow playback and indicate which articulation is active.


...this is also quite close to having a scripter floating window open and watching the artics (as you can now with popular scripters).

I think the controller lane under the piano roll has huge potential. It is a mess right now - how hard is it to pull up a lane for CC25? - and the left menu should be user configurable, the graphics for the lanes should be updated, more than one lane should be possible, and an articulation lane would be great there, and of course there should be keyboard shortcuts so you can swap between the controller lanes - bringing in beefier, more customisable step editor type functionality under the piano roll - and in one window which is the UI philosophy.

Just a thought. Great mock ups


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## Vik (Jan 22, 2016)

mc_deli said:


> how hard is it to pull up a lane for CC25?


Use AutoDefine? The main limitation of the editor is IMO that it only shows one lane at a time. And the main limitation of doing it in one of the region editors instead of in Arrange, is that in the Step Editor or in the controller lane under the piano roll and score editors, you'll see only one track at a time. 
In the track area/arrange area, we can see multiple lanes of automation - even for several tracks at the same time, which is why I think the best solution is to add and edit articulation/controller data there.


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## samphony (Jan 22, 2016)

Nice discussion and feedback!

This mockup intended to focus more on the note dependent articulation. The scripter solution in TBA mode is disconnected from notes. 

I think current solutions like SS2, AG and BW do the best they can deliver with current possibilities as 3rd party.


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## gsilbers (Jan 22, 2016)

nicely done.


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## mc_deli (Jan 23, 2016)

Vik said:


> Use AutoDefine? The main limitation of the editor is IMO that it only shows one lane at a time. And the main limitation of doing it in one of the region editors instead of in Arrange, is that in the Step Editor or in the controller lane under the piano roll and score editors, you'll see only one track at a time.
> In the track area/arrange area, we can see multiple lanes of automation - even for several tracks at the same time, which is why I think the best solution is to add and edit articulation/controller data there.


Well, I use the automation lane for artic changes now. I would much rather have it in the piano roll, or above/below the piano roll. It only has to be a continuous bar e.g. Like the arrangement bar at the top of the main window-actually that would be great.

How about this: make the controller lane operate more like the global tracks, like step edit in miniature. It could operate a little like zoom focused track. Nice slim (arrangement-like) rows. Imagine having cc1, 3, note velocity and artic all there under the piano roll, just one click to edit/sculpt/switch, and barely a twitch away from note entry in the piano roll.

Yeah that's a thought


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## samphony (Jan 23, 2016)

The benefit of articulations bound to notes is that they stay synced when moving notes around. If switching via the automation lane the triggering has to happen before notes playback similar to key switches.

I either prefer the one articulation per track or bound to notes which I execute via the notes event channel still.

My UXD concept points to the fact that articulation setup and execution should be dead easy and accessible and deeply implemented into the daw.

Again the currently existing solutions are great and I use both ss2 and AG. It's just that such things should be integrated into a DAW in my opinion.


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## mc_deli (Jan 24, 2016)

I am convinced that a solution to show/change articulations should be in/around the piano roll.
I think that is the easiest and most logical location. And I think it could just be a horizontal bar like the arrangement track.
Agreed, the artic "lane" / setting should latch with notes as you move them.
Floating window for editing artics yes great. But to change artic I want to be able to do it by e.g. right click on the "artic track" under the piano roll. And slice/drag the artic track like the arrangement track. 
Wrapped text would be a bonus too - fuller artic names - not the vs.sus.oct that I have now


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## samphony (Jan 24, 2016)

Feel free to add this thread as link into your feedback to the logic team.


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## Vik (Jan 25, 2016)

mc_deli said:


> I am convinced that a solution to show/change articulations should be in/around the piano roll.
> I think that is the easiest and most logical location. And I think it could just be a horizontal bar like the arrangement track.


The clear benefit with doing it the track area/Arrange window is that you can edit and see the CC data for several tracks at the same time... so I wonder why you think that doing it in the piano roll (and the score editor) is better? All depending on what you want to do, I think both options are needed. 

Btw, Articulation IDs are moved with the notes today, as you move them - the problem is only that since the articulation solution in Logic is as unfinished as it is, no library developers support that solution (it's probably not even possible).


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## resound (Jan 25, 2016)

This looks like a great solution samphony. I'm not sure why everyone is pushing for automation based articulations when Articulation ID is already a feature in Logic and is the obvious answer. Right now it only works with EXS instruments, but it could be easily updated to work with 3rd party plugins. 

The problem with using automation for articulations is that it would be impossible to have two articulations happening at the same time. Even having two different articulations happening very close to each other could be problematic, or would cause the hassle of zooming all the way in to draw in your automation accurately. Having the articulation attached to the note avoids all of these problems. I don't see a need to look at articulations in the Main window because you aren't looking at notes in the Main window, you are looking at regions. It makes sense to edit articulations in the piano roll or the score editor because that is where you go to edit notes. 

Currently when you hover over a note in the Piano roll, it displays the note's pitch and velocity. If you click and hold on the note, it displays position, length and pitch. It would be cool if it "Articulation" was added to this display for a quick way to see what articulation is assigned to a note.


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## mc_deli (Jan 25, 2016)

I think the weakness with the current Articulation ID solution is that articulations are only visible and editable in the event list (OK, you also have smart control switches) - and they are not shown in the piano roll, and there is no controller lane.

Surely the Logic UI paradigm is that controllers are available in the controller lane under the piano roll. I know that score users might not use Logic this way, and there are some users that rely on the events list, but I edit notes in the piano roll, so that's where I want to edit articulations, and that's where I want clear visual indicators of what articulation is in use - at a glance - during a note, sequence, or region. A note colour or mark on a floating window is good but I think there should be the option of much clearer visual indication - reference note velocity; you can choose to see note colours or see lines in the controller lane (or both, or neither).

Good discussion. Of course - well worth getting this stuff to Logic feedback. Given what was achieved in 10.2.1, just imagine...


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## A.G (Jan 25, 2016)

Hi Sam,

Your mockup is highly appreciated.
Once I tried to let you know that any sorts of home made mockups are welcome but they are just mockups.
Here is some additional info:
1. Your Piano Roll scenario is similar to the Cubase decision however you need a horizontal Articulation view like it is shown in the Cubase Piano Roll Hyper draw.

2. There is a need of a powerful Articulation/Expression Maps EDITOR. Cubase offers a simple Maps Editor where you have to assign Maps (beforehand) to be shown in the Piano Roll Articulation view lane. You need such Editor in your mockup as well. Have a look at our brand new http://www.audiogrocery.com/ag_editor.htm (Logic Maps Articulation EDITOR) solution. We have implemented Logic Note Event Articulation ID support so the Maps can be sent via the Note Events directly, using the alternative Maps Mode 4 (which is not best yet). Logic Articulation IDs system cannot control the Instruments which need "Momentary/On the Fly Key Switches". They need Timeline automation which is the future and is implemented in our TBA Modes!

3. The Articulation switching needs a rock solid external control via Key Switches, Program Change or Controllers which are not printed in the Score or in the other MIDI Editors. It is a good idea if you apply some prototypes about that in your mockup as well.

All this is a friendly comment which can be implemented natively in Logic.


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## Vik (Jan 25, 2016)

resound said:


> I'm not sure why everyone is pushing for automation based articulations when Articulation ID is already a feature in Logic and is the obvious answer. Right now it only works with EXS instruments, but it could be easily updated to work with 3rd party plugins.


I'm not so sure about how easily this could be updated to work with eg. Kontakt, because many users have been asking about proper development of Logic's articulation control for several years now. 
Regarding using automation instead of A-IDs: I have been suggesting using track automation for managing articulation, but not instead of A-IDs: only instead of using MIDI Draw. So I'm thinking of controlling articulations with CCs - sorry if this has been unclear in previous posts. 

Of course using Apple's own (but for a long time now: only half-baked) articulation IDs is a much better solution - had it only been available for real life use with Kontakt libraries without a lot or trickery/pasting special objects into every version of each of your songs and alternatives - and so on. The main reason I'm so sceptical about how easy it is to implement this in Logic is that this area (control of articulations, proper CC automation, a good workflow when using both host based and MIDI based automation (+ MIDI Draw) is the most underdeveloped area in Logic (except, of course the score editor), and it has been like this for many years now.


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## Vik (Nov 11, 2017)

samphony said:


> here is an idea I had about Logic and how it could handle articulations.


Hi Samphony - most of your pictures are missing/displayed as question marks only - and it would be easier to discuss and quote what you present in the pic that's visible if it was posted as text.


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## samphony (Nov 11, 2017)

Vik said:


> Hi Samphony - most of your pictures are missing/displayed as question marks only - and it would be easier to discuss and quote what you present in the pic that's visible if it was posted as text.


true. All pictures where gone because I hosted them at copy.com 

I’ll update this post tomorrow.


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## samphony (Nov 11, 2017)

Vik said:


> Hi Samphony - most of your pictures are missing/displayed as question marks only - and it would be easier to discuss and quote what you present in the pic that's visible if it was posted as text.


Updated my post with the pictures.


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## ptram (Nov 11, 2017)

Beautiful! But I would also like to be able to assign articulation controls to articulation symbols in the Score Editor.


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## samphony (Nov 11, 2017)

ptram said:


> Beautiful! But I would also like to be able to assign articulation controls to articulation symbols in the Score Editor.


Yes these should go hand in hand no matter if you edit in the piano roll or score editor!!!


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## Vik (Nov 12, 2017)

I think it's great that you post detailed suggestions, and since articulation and CC automation (with Kontakt) have been the most popular wishes in polls among score/VI users for many years now (and since I already bought Cubase because Apple doesn't have a solution here), I'm particularly happy that someone posts suggestions like this! 

Warning: there will be a lot of babbling in the following lines, but I don't disagree with your suggestion - just expand on it to make it less future proof in the sense that it can offer the functions we need in the future! 

I'll start with commenting what you wrote under "Use case". Number 2 on that list is "User opens Articulation Editor". 
I think what all users - with no exception - want to have is an as simple workflow as possible. Being able to use the same articulations across all projects and all libraries is therefore extremely important. Some of the libraries come with hundreds of presets, and as we know - many of us have several libraries. Therefore the workflow should (for regular use) not need to involve opening up an editor. Maybe you suggest that he should do that only the first time, but in the future, we won't need to do that either. Either the libraries or the DAWs will come with 'expression maps' which will allow us to use the the same command across all libraries/projects. Cubase is already quite close to that. 

So I think that the main workflow for many users will include a way to alter articulations as we play/record the notes. This can be done from an iPad, from a hardware controller or something else. If it will be easy to change articulation on the fly in Logic, (and it should be - both for orchestral sounds and synth/hybrid sounds), one can add flutter, ponticello, growl or whatever as the idas pop up during record. That's quite essential. 

Therefore, it should be possible to just start press record, have your your desired controller (which also could be knobs on your MIDI or computer keyboard) at hand and start to play. This requires, of course, that you either have downloaded an expression map for that library from your DAW manufacturer or library maker, or that you have created one yourself. 

In all cases, such maps should have a format which makes them accessible and easily loadable (not only importable) in all projects.

Next question mark here is: how does Logic know that you are using eg Cinematic Studio Strings and uses the correct map? 
Not sure, but when I load CSS, the preset and CC names automatically pops up in Logic. So I believe this can done automatically, at least with a future AU format (maybe in v3?). If not, the user needs to both load CSS and an expression map for CSS. Or load both at the same time, by using patches/stacks/channel strip settings or something else. 

Input methods could of course be program change, CC message, a foot pedal (switch or continuous pedal), MIDI note or something else - this would need to be freely definable. It should also work with libraries (like VSL) which need two values to define one articulation change. 

And for people who want to enter, say, dynamics/vibrato/flutter/growl at the same time (which can be done with advanced controllers - for instance a good breath controller or simply by having some fingers on your hardware controller but use mod wheel and pedal in addition), an articulation solution in Logic would need to be future proof in the sense that one should be able to work this way - since such methods are important both for the electronica and orchestral guys and girls.

I also hope that it will be possible to learn these values instead of entering them manually - so if we want to use C1 to trigger a vibrato switch, we just press learn and then that key on a keyboard. 

I also have a question, Samphony: Which limitations (if any) will be the consequence of what you wrote about your suggestion was based on "one input method at a time"?

IMO it's very important that such maps are stored in a way which means that they don't need to be imported from another project, but rather simply will be loaded from a one click-menu on each channel strip. 

On another note: when adding articulation *after* a recording, this should be doable (in the score editor) by adding eg a Spiccatto symbol to the note - but this wouldn't make sense in the piano roll. The easiest way to add an articulation to a note would probably be to use an iPad or hardware controller, or assign function keys or eg use the small touch screen buttons on new MacBooks and Apple's newest hardware keyboard. Or with other key commands. In addition, to make this noob proof, I think its a good idea if one could select any available articulation by tight clicking on a note and simple selecting Pizzicato or Staccato from a menu.

If DAW manufacturers and library makers deliver these maps - for both Cubase, Logic, Reaper etc, the average user wouldn't have to deal with almost any of this. He will be left with needing to fin out how he will enter his articulation info, and maybe select an expression map manually for each track, unless this can happen automatically.

I don't, btw, expect Apple to implement all this in version one of their expression map solution, but hope that they'll create something which allows development along these lines in the future. 






*
*


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## samphony (Nov 12, 2017)

Vik said:


> I think it's great that you post detailed suggestions, and since articulation and CC automation (with Kontakt) have been the most popular wishes in polls among score/VI users for many years now (and since I already bought Cubase because Apple doesn't have a solution here), I'm particularly happy that someone posts suggestions like this!
> 
> Warning: there will be a lot of babbling in the following lines, but I don't disagree with your suggestion - just expand on it to make it less future proof in the sense that it can offer the functions we need in the future!
> 
> ...


Of course this concept is from 2015/2016 and if I would update my concept I would change a couple of things like you’ve suggested. 

Like you I think articulation preset management should have an open file format like .xml so it can easily be shared with any daw using the same articulation file format. 

Also the articulation editor as seen in this concept was based on the groups window. And as suggested if user opens the editor I meant open it for the first time like you open the groups window and set up your groups. 

Also like mentioned in the proposal the articulation editing process has to work during live performance or step input and also after the fact. Some people prefer to play there lines first and set the articulation after that. 

The whole articulation workflow should work (be accessible) elegantly in all editors.


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## Vik (Nov 12, 2017)

Another thing to consider is the relationship between articulation control and CC automation/Smart Controls. The Smart Controls setting should also be saveable and loadable from/to any project, meaning that once I have set the smart controls area the way I want it in one project, that setting should ideally be available in all project automatically. And - if it isn't, it should be loadable. Maybe the Smart Controls settings and the Articulation Map settings could coexist in one single file? This would ideally mean that if I select any library by name in Logic (in a track), the relevant settings will immediately exist both in this track's smart control panel and in the Articulation area.


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## mc_deli (Nov 12, 2017)

Vik said:


> On another note: when adding articulation *after* a recording, this should be doable (in the score editor) by adding eg a Spiccatto symbol to the note - but this wouldn't make sense in the piano roll.


Hang on, I'll just stop you there. It does make sense. It's exactly what I want - to be able to quickly change/edit/audition artics in the piano roll - in the same way that I can change note velocity. I want it to be that easy. I can do it in the automation lane with AG. That's why I am asking for some kind of lane or overlay for artics in the piano roll 

Multiple CC lanes under the piano roll would be nice - without going to the step editor or to automation lanes - but a dedicated artic switching solution in the piano roll - that's what this is all about for me


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## Vik (Nov 12, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> Hang on, I'll just stop you there. It does make sense. It's exactly what I want - to be able to quickly change/edit/audition artics in the piano roll - in the same way that I can change note velocity.


Of course - but I was referring to using these symbols on piano the roll bars:






There should IMO be several ways to add articulations in all editors: key commands, contextual menu, drag and drop of some kind... and more. One way which would be really useful would be to have a floating palette (or a palette in the inspector which - when clicked on (no drag needed) would add an articulation to the selected note(s).

If/when something in the direction of Samphony's suggested IU will be implemented, a single click on the a word (eg Pizzicato) is all that should be needed to assign that articulation to the selected note or notes.

And if/when Apple implements a user interface for their Articulation ID solution (which was introduced in Logic 9, maybe even before that), I'm pretty sure they will offer several ways to execute these assignments. They are usually quite good at not trying to make a choice on the behalf og the user and decide for one kind of UI - but instead off er several ways to do the same thing, and let the user choose.


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## mc_deli (Nov 12, 2017)

Aha, yes, we are on the same page. 
As icons even in the piano roll, the notation symbols might still be useful... I could imagine mousing over to reveal the full artic name and e.g. UACC/ID number equivalent...


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## Vik (Nov 12, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> As icons even in the piano roll, the notation symbols might still be useful... I could imagine mousing over to reveal the full artic name and e.g. UACC/ID number equivalent...


Sure, why not. But I don't think they would look good if they would appear over the bars in the piano roll the way they look if they are dragged onto notes in score. And even if these symbols would make it to the piano roll (I actually doubt they will), there should IMO be a way for people who aren't familiar with such symbols to quickly click on something - in order to add an articulation to a note in the piano roll - without having to wait for the mouseover info.


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## Vik (Nov 13, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> That's why I am asking for some kind of lane or overlay for artics in the piano roll
> 
> Multiple CC lanes under the piano roll would be nice - without going to the step editor or to automation lanes - but a dedicated artic switching solution in the piano roll - that's what this is all about for me


And since Articulation IDs can trigger for instance 5 different articulations at the same time position on the same track - because they are associated to each note individually, and not limited to program changes or MIDI channels or other simple solutions, they offer a potentially fantastic workflow for composers and arrangers. 

You could easily write a piece for 6-7 instruments inside a normal piano (bass/treble clef) staff, and use MIDI channels to decide which instrument each of the voices belong to (eg. V1 on channel 1, V2 on channel 3 etc) and use Articulation IDs to change articulations for each of the instruments individually. Apple's Articulation ID solution is so brilliant that it can (if these things are implemented) offer workflow improvements not even possible with Cubase (at least for now. Maybe Cubase are smart enough to implement Articulation IDs as well). 

And with such workflow improvements in mind, multiple lanes in the piano roll would become even more important than today, for instance because they (in the piano staff scenario above) could be used to show eg dynamics of vibrato for all the instruments at the same time.


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## samphony (Nov 13, 2017)

Never thought this thread would gain more attention but it seems that articulation management and editing are more important then ever before.

So what will happen faster:

A) new sampling script engines K6 or K7 or EXS 4 or whatever with machine learning capabilities?

B) articulation editor or something similar (native) added to Logic Pro?

I personally use a mix of either ski switcher or AG Toolkit (both switching articulation based on midi channel) and single tracks per articulation depending on the project.


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## Sami (Nov 13, 2017)

I believe ArtzID to be the closest to what I would like for a solution, but Logic still needs to communicate with Kontakt. Lets just imagine we have a button called "read articulations from Kontakt" and then another one "assign to Articulation ID". Done.


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