# Multi-Channel Audia via Ethernet?



## composerguy78 (Jun 15, 2016)

I am interested in getting a pro tools machine so I can record stems in one pass. However, I would prefer to not have to buy costly audio interfaces. 

Is there a way to send multi-channel audio via ethernet from my logic pro machine to a separate Pro Tools machine without buying expensive interfaces these days? 

Seeing as we can do this with multichannel audio using Vienna Ensemble, I thought there might be a way to do this nowadays. 

Can anyone enlighten me?
Thx
Felix


----------



## samphony (Jun 15, 2016)

Take a look at https://www.audinate.com/products/software/dante-virtual-soundcard

It's on sale right now. It will let you stream 64 channels simultaneously over a simple Ethernet/Thunderbolt connection and as your non avid pro tools setup will only allow 32 channels you should be fine. Latency is great. I tested it with two Mac Pros (Vader helmet + one thunderbolt cable) and two Logic Pro X setups.

To monitor Dante virtual Soundcard just create an aggregate device with DVS + your audio interface!


----------



## composerguy78 (Jun 15, 2016)

Wow, Thank you so much. 
This is really exciting. 
I have a few questions though if you don't mind. 


What do you mean by '*non avid* Pro Tools setup'. 
Does one need a physical audio interface on the pro tools machine in addition to the DVS? Or is DVS on its own going to work fine?


----------



## samphony (Jun 15, 2016)

composerguy78 said:


> Wow, Thank you so much.
> This is really exciting.
> I have a few questions though if you don't mind.
> 
> ...



1. Only Pro Tools HD in combination with an avid audio interface gives you plus 32 inputs. 
2. You can monitor pro tools back on your main machine or use the pro tools aggregate device and add your macs internal audio card as monitor.


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen (Jun 15, 2016)

In case anyone is interested in doing this with PC's, it's a lot more complicated with the Dante virtual soundcard (unless you have a Dante enabled interface) because there isn't an aggregate device like on Macs. You have to also get Dante Via to get it out to an interface. What's disappointing about Via is that it doesn't support routing more than 2x2 for each program so what you have to do is have the 2 computers running the virtual soundcard which give you 64x64 between the 2 and then have a 3rd computer running Via to get the sound out of your interface.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 15, 2016)

There's probably a way to bus the audio to VE Pro. I'd have to think about it, but I'm sure it can be done.


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen (Jun 15, 2016)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> There's probably a way to bus the audio to VE Pro. I'd have to think about it, but I'm sure it can be done.



I spent quite a bit of time trying to figure something out with VEP but found nothing. The only idea that I had was to find a VST plugin that would let you route out from VEP to an interface but I couldn't find anything that did that. Maybe you'd have better luck with it.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 15, 2016)

What about Plogue Bidule? Is there a way to make that work? I think that was how I got Giga to go over Ethernet, but right now my brain isn't putting the pieces together.


----------



## kurtvanzo (Jun 19, 2016)

Since VE Pro does the ethernet connect between computers (audio and midi), I would research using it as a bridge from your Logic Machine to Protools. Seems you could add an instance of VE Pro on an Aux track in PT, then send that via a buss to a stereo audio track. Repeat using VE Pro to route out to different inputs to PT and add more stereo audio tracks.
Then set up your VE Pro instance in Logic, route the outputs and you should have a connection to record up to 32 stereo stems into the protools session. It may even carry MTC so that you can place PT online (command J) and have it slave (lock to Logic) and punch in automatically (preferences/operations/record on tc lock). No other hardware or software needed, and VE Pro is around $200. Can be downloaded and setup in an afternoon (although a Vienna Key or Steinberg elicense key is needed for $25). This video is a good start:


God bless.


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen (Jun 19, 2016)

kurtvanzo said:


> Since VE Pro does the ethernet connect between computers (audio and midi), I would research using it as a bridge from your Logic Machine to Protools. Seems you could add an instance of VE Pro on an Aux track in PT, then send that via a buss to a stereo audio track. Repeat using VE Pro to route out to different inputs to PT and add more stereo audio tracks.
> Then set up your VE Pro instance in Logic, route the outputs and you should have a connection to record up to 32 stereo stems into the protools session. It may even carry MTC so that you can place PT online (command J) and have it slave (lock to Logic) and punch in automatically (preferences/operations/record on tc lock). No other hardware or software needed, and VE Pro is around $200. Can be downloaded and setup in an afternoon (although a Vienna Key or Steinberg elicense key is needed for $25). This video is a good start:
> 
> God bless.




I don't get what you're saying. You can only connect 1 DAW at a time to an instance. And only the non server VEP has access to physical audio I/O.


----------



## kurtvanzo (Jun 19, 2016)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> I don't get what you're saying. You can only connect 1 DAW at a time to an instance. And only the non server VEP has access to physical audio I/O.


VE Pro can be run on a slave machine (the Logic computer) which could be setup to run audio (through ethernet) to Pro Tools on the first computer. So it's really just a matter of getting midi from Logic into VE Pro on the same computer, no?

Perhaps something like TransMIDIfier would route MIDI from Logic to VE Pro?
http://www.bewaryprods.com/software/products/TransMIDIfier/


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen (Jun 19, 2016)

kurtvanzo said:


> VE Pro can be run on a slave machine (the Logic computer) which could be setup to run audio (through ethernet) to Pro Tools on the first computer. So it's really just a matter of getting midi from Logic into VE Pro on the same computer, no?
> 
> Perhaps something like TransMIDIfier would route MIDI from Logic to VE Pro?
> http://www.bewaryprods.com/software/products/TransMIDIfier/



Yes, you could use the external midi in VEP to connect to Logic and have it connected to Pro Tools but we're talking about getting audio between them here. Not midi.


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen (Jun 19, 2016)

Going back to the OP, what I'd suggest doing, if you're only looking to have the stems in PT and not do any mixing, is taking the approach of Junkie XL and Christian Henson. Just batch export it and then import it into PT. Then the only thing you need to worry about is the sync. No need for any sort of audio connections.


----------



## leggylangdon (Jun 19, 2016)

Ok ill chime in here seeing as though Ive been dealing with a similar issue all week  see my post here...

http://vi-control.net/community/thr...e-this-time-with-rednet-and-vep-almost.54022/

Basically it can be done using a combo of Pro Tols, Logic and VEP running in server mode but with external midi on and setting up the IAC Bus (If your Logic machine is local) If your Logic machine is on a slave, the process works the same except instead of using the IAC Bus you have to use a midi over lan app like IPmidi. But below setup still applies...

As long as you can set your template up so that all sound sources are coming from VEP (meaning no Logic specific synths etc)

You set it up like this...

In Mac Audio/Midi setup
1. Turn on IAC Bus to online (for local slave only)

*In Pro Tools..*

1. Create an Aux track (to host the VEP plug)
2. then as many audio tracks as you need, lets say 16 stereo.
3. Set the inputs of these tracks to receive VEP outputs 3/4 ascending through to 17/18
4. Load VEP on your slave or local machine and then connect to that instance in Pro Tools as normal.

*In VEP*

1. Make sure external midi mode is active and the correct midi ports are slected (either IAC Bus of IPmidi), this will require a restart of VEP if you havnt done so already.
2. Load (for example) 8 Kontakts
3. Set the midi in for each Kontakt to the IAC Bus (or IPmidi port if using a slave) and then channels 1 through 8. Make sure the Kontakts are all receiving in OMNI
4. Set the Outputs of the kontakts in VEP starting from 3/4 through to 17/18 so they line up with Pro Tools input channels.

*In Logic*

1. Set up 8 external midi tracks and have them send out on the IAC Port (or IPmidi port if using a slave) channels 1 through 8


Put the pro tools audio tracks into Input and hey presto! You now should be able to trigger Kontakt via VEP from the Logic midi channels. You should be able to monitor VEP audio through Pro Tools but be sequencing in Logic!!

Sounds too good to be true right!?  Well the problem comes when you 'print' into PT. If you are just using for stems then probably will be fine but if you require further work to be done in PT you will see that the audio is behind by quite a lot. This is being caused by VEP not knowing what the hell is going on Delay Comp wise. So you have to manually measure how far the audio if off by and then move it back. If thats not a prob for you then this set up could be your answer without having to spend bank on a more streamlined system (Rednet/Madi etc)

This set up is quite 'sneaky' in that is gets around the PT Native 32 channel IO limit because the audio is flowing through Vienna and not the Pro Tools IO. SO whether you are PT Native or HD this can work. Monitoring through PT is fine with reasonable buffer settings on both Logic and PT. Its just the printing of audio when it gets tricky. Though you could also 'Spot To Time Code' after printing the audio in, that may be a help though I havnt tried it.

Hope that helps in some way, if only to just put you off the idea altogether due to the excessively complicated work arounds needed, not to mention care taking of 3 apps all working at the same time. 

Maybe just set up a stemming system within Logic and then export your audio offline out of Logic ready for mixing as mentioned by other folks here.

What starts as a great idea to streamline workflow becomes the complete opposite. That being said I would love to know if you have any luck with it!

Cheers!


----------



## composerguy78 (Jun 22, 2016)

Wow - thanks so much for all of this. 

I have just figured out a simple solution to bounce stems in Logic and it involves recording the key commands to bounce stems into a macro using an application called Keyboard Maestro.


----------



## composerguy78 (Jun 22, 2016)

Thanks very much for this - But surely this would only send audio coming from Kontakt instances no? How would you route regular audio tracks from Logic this way? 

I think this setup is basically running PT as your VE Pro slave. - I am looking to simplify/automate making stems for music delivery on movies & TV episodes. I have figured out a way - see below.

Thx

Felix



leggylangdon said:


> Ok ill chime in here seeing as though Ive been dealing with a similar issue all week  see my post here...
> 
> http://vi-control.net/community/thr...e-this-time-with-rednet-and-vep-almost.54022/
> 
> ...


----------



## composerguy78 (Jun 22, 2016)

Thanks for the details - I am very well acquainted with VE Pro and have used it since its inception - but I appreciate it all the same. It was VE Pro's technology of basically sending audio via ethernet which got me thinking of this. 

The problem is that, as far as I know, you can only send audio back from VE Pro (slave) back to a software instrument in Logic. 

It would be great if Vienna Instruments decided to develop an audio over ethernet plugin - that way we could easily ditch our hardware and use this kind of set up I am talking about, but I expect it's significantly more difficult than I am imagining. 



kurtvanzo said:


> Since VE Pro does the ethernet connect between computers (audio and midi), I would research using it as a bridge from your Logic Machine to Protools. Seems you could add an instance of VE Pro on an Aux track in PT, then send that via a buss to a stereo audio track. Repeat using VE Pro to route out to different inputs to PT and add more stereo audio tracks.
> Then set up your VE Pro instance in Logic, route the outputs and you should have a connection to record up to 32 stereo stems into the protools session. It may even carry MTC so that you can place PT online (command J) and have it slave (lock to Logic) and punch in automatically (preferences/operations/record on tc lock). No other hardware or software needed, and VE Pro is around $200. Can be downloaded and setup in an afternoon (although a Vienna Key or Steinberg elicense key is needed for $25). This video is a good start:
> 
> God bless.


----------



## composerguy78 (Jun 22, 2016)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> What about Plogue Bidule? Is there a way to make that work? I think that was how I got Giga to go over Ethernet, but right now my brain isn't putting the pieces together.



Good idea - plogue might well be able to do this kind of thing!


----------



## leggylangdon (Jun 22, 2016)

composerguy78 said:


> Wow - thanks so much for all of this.
> 
> I have just figured out a simple solution to bounce stems in Logic and it involves recording the key commands to bounce stems into a macro using an application called Keyboard Maestro.




No worries..yeah that method only works for non logic specific sounds as I mentioned in my last post...

If you are keeping the bouncing all inside logic there is a quicker way than the macro setup in the video...

Just 'Command Click' each track stack then go to 'Export Selected Tracks' from the file/export menu. It will render out each track stack as a stem using whatever track stack name as the name. All automated all offline...Very cool!!

Make sure you 'command click' and not 'shift' click otherwise it won't work.


----------



## composerguy78 (Jun 22, 2016)

Thanks Leggy Langdon - sorry, I didn't read your post carefully enough. 

The export selected tracks is a great feature but it does not printed effects on busses. It's great for sending tracks to be mixed but I put reverb on busses 1-3 and none of those will be printed. I have experimented with this extensively. 

It's only us film/tv composers who need the busses printed and as yet there is no other way to do this properly. Also - My method ensures that sounds from other track stacks/Stems will not be printed to any other stem (like you might get when printing to pro tools in a traditional fashion. The only way to avoid that is to have each stem have it's own reverb which is very processor intensive!


----------



## leggylangdon (Jun 22, 2016)

composerguy78 said:


> Thanks Leggy Langdon - sorry, I didn't read your post carefully enough.
> 
> The export selected tracks is a great feature but it does not printed effects on busses. It's great for sending tracks to be mixed but I put reverb on busses 1-3 and none of those will be printed. I have experimented with this extensively.
> 
> It's only us film/tv composers who need the busses printed and as yet there is no other way to do this properly. Also - My method ensures that sounds from other track stacks/Stems will not be printed to any other stem (like you might get when printing to pro tools in a traditional fashion. The only way to avoid that is to have each stem have it's own reverb which is very processor intensive!



Ahh I see...that makes sense. I was assuming you were using separate effects inside each stem...

That would be the way to set up for a Pro Tools print if you want a one pass print or without having to solo separate stems for each pass, which is the fastest workflow but yes its more cpu intensive for sure!

Looks like you have found a great solution for your set up! Nice one!


----------



## composerguy78 (Jun 22, 2016)

Thanks, yes, I feel that I finally have! I wish I had taken the time to do this years ago. It really was pretty simple to set up!


----------



## clisma (Jun 22, 2016)

composerguy78 said:


> Wow - thanks so much for all of this.
> 
> I have just figured out a simple solution to bounce stems in Logic and it involves recording the key commands to bounce stems into a macro using an application called Keyboard Maestro.



That is fantastic! I would love to be able to automate this process. I just started playing with Keyboard Maestro two days ago, and am still a little green. Would you mind sharing how you set this up?


----------



## composerguy78 (Jun 22, 2016)

Okay, here is the KM macro.

Please let me know if you need any help with it. I would like to tweak it and improve also - so let me know if you have any suggestions!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7pj6xs5d507rh1i/Stem Output (Prompt).kmmacros.zip?dl=0



clisma said:


> That is fantastic! I would love to be able to automate this process. I just started playing with Keyboard Maestro two days ago, and am still a little green. Would you mind sharing how you set this up?


----------



## clisma (Jun 22, 2016)

Hey, thanks for this! Giving it a spin now. Had already gone as far as bouncing the stems, but couldn't figure how to make the process iterate yet... Will get back to you with any tweaks if I make any!


----------



## samphony (Jun 22, 2016)

@composerguy78

Why not command selecting all 4 track stacks and use the bounce selected tracks option? This is possible since 10.2.1/2
This way all 4 stems get bounced at once to separate tracks. If you just want to export stems for delivery choose the export selected tracks key command instead.


----------

