# A warning about imitating another composer's sound...



## germancomponist (Apr 3, 2011)

ChrisAxia @ Sun Apr 03 said:


> It is clearly a very grey area, and when big money is involved, you can be sure the lawyers will come knocking....
> 
> ~C



For sure :mrgreen: .


----------



## tripit (Apr 3, 2011)

Interesting topic. 

I know of a few cases were sound a like have been sued. But mostly it was things like Tom Waits suing and winning over an ad that imitated him. 
In those kinds of cases the imitation was clear and obvious, and important to note that it was based on a unique personal voice and style of singing. The judge declared that the imitation could be pointed back to one and only one source. A source that the judge found to be a trademark sound. Meaning, the sound was immediately and clearly assumed to be Tom Waits by most people who would have known his sound. And, here is the important thing - the sound of his voice is personal and unique, so any infringement would and could clearly be seen as to be taking away from him. 

I've never heard of case regarding film score composers. The cases are usually song based cases. I think it would be a lot harder with film, because so much of it has been borrowed and passed around. You could trace most things in scores back through tons of films and then keep going into the classics. How are you going to point out that so and so's sound was his or hers to begin with in the first place? Nearly impossible. 

In most cases with score, it's the same sound - orchestra. The orchestration is pretty much the same, or built on a foundation that pretty much everyone follows. There isn't much new and different going on here. And most of the general public couldn't identify one composer from another by music alone. The few exceptions might be people like Thomas Newman, Elfman or maybe HZ. 

Let's look at the HZ spicc ostinato thing, since I'm sure that is already being ripped off to death. If a court could determine that HZ could be shown to have used that particular orchestration enough to make it immediately identifiable and unique to him to most people, they might have a case. But, again - if it could be shown that the 16th note spicc ostinato has been used many times in the course of history and is not unique to HZ, there wouldn't be much of a case. 

I think, for the most part we are pretty safe from "sound a like" infringement. But, that doesn't mean your are safe from melodic infringement - which is a whole other thing.

And, besides we shouldn't be trying to copy anyone per se. Try to be your own, discover your own voice, sound and style. Copying a style and sound isn't going to get you very far, not to mention it's boring.


----------



## germancomponist (Apr 3, 2011)

Only think about the trailer music......... .

But, who wants that you write a track sounding like xy, who send you a temp track? Yeah, the film producers... . o=<


----------



## tripit (Apr 3, 2011)

ChrisAxia @ Sun Apr 03 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun Apr 03 said:
> 
> 
> > I mean no disrespect, Chris, but I think musicians have been copying each other's sound forever. I don't see how this will ever change.
> ...



People are mistaken if they think that melodic copyright infringement are the only things you can sued for. There are so called "trademark" sounds. That's where you can get sued even if you didn't cross the copyright line.


----------



## midphase (Apr 3, 2011)

For instance, is this commercial a trademark/copyright infringement of Danny Elfman's "sound"?

http://creativity-online.com/work/disco ... ssors/6106


----------



## tripit (Apr 3, 2011)

midphase @ Sun Apr 03 said:


> For instance, is this commercial a trademark/copyright infringement of Danny Elfman's "sound"?
> 
> http://creativity-online.com/work/disco ... ssors/6106




I would say no, not even close. 
Because a trademark sound has to physically sound like the sound. You might have something that borrows from Elfman's arrangement style, but still doesn't sound like Elfman's sound. That in no way sounded like it came from an Elfman score.


----------



## tripit (Apr 3, 2011)

RiffWraith @ Sun Apr 03 said:


> ChrisAxia @ Sun Apr 03 said:
> 
> 
> > I asked the question about whether you could 'get in trouble' for sounding like a well known composer even if there was no similarity in notes/harmony. The response from a few of the panel was "That's fine", but then a top musicologist in the audience stood up and told everyone this was not correct, and that he had been involved in cases (in the USA) where 'soundalikes' were successfully sued.
> ...



That's incorrect Riff, my friend. Though highly rare, cases have already been won based on sound like of an artist, not a specific tracks.


----------



## nikolas (Apr 3, 2011)

This IS interesting and quite weird, frankly. I can only think that someone was able to prove that the 'sound' of a particular composer was as important as the melodies or the harmonic progression (along with voicing, right?). 

If I may ask another question: If ideas are not copyrighted (which is what I also know), but patented, how the hell did Facebook owner got sued and had to give away 65,000,000$ to the twins who said he stole their idea?!?!?!?


----------



## RiffWraith (Apr 3, 2011)

Hmmmm...very interesting.

Here is another:

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/9355877/n ... rtainment/

_...has filed a lawsuit against a unit of automaker General Motors Corp. and a German advertising agency for allegedly using a soundalike in a series of European ads. _

Then this:

_Waits is seeking damages and any profits derived from the ads for violating his personality rights, Schumacher said._

This appears to not be a copyright claim, but a trademark claim. Copyright protects against deliberate copying, but not coincidental similarity. Trademark on the other hand, does in fact protect character & personality rights. So, yeah, I guess I can see that. BUT - and a big but - you would have to chow that your style/sound/whetever you want to brand it is SO original and unique, that the general public would think that the "soundalike" was really you. Now tell me, how many film composers can really make that claim? So, maybe whan it comes to certain artists, yeah - they may have a claim. Film composers - no way.

Cheers.


----------



## noiseboyuk (Apr 3, 2011)

We had a thread on this a while ago with a lot of similar examples. However, the Glenn Miller thing - if its as reported here - is the first time I've ever heard of someone being successfully sued for a style of music like a particular composer. It sounds like an insane ruling.

In the realm of orchestral, you'd be very very hard to make anything stick. Everyone borrows from everyone else. The Hans Zimmer sound isn't exclusive - if I do a track in that style, am I aping Zimmer or A.N.Other? Who was Elfman inspired by? John Williams leant heavily on Holst and Stravinsky for Star Wars etc - and that was actual music in some cases, not just style. If I use some Williamsesque triads in a sequence (without directly ripping off a melody), can I now be sued for it? I'd say emphatically not.


----------



## ChrisAxia (Apr 3, 2011)

*Re: A warning about imitating another composer's soundknow*

Hey Guy,

As I said, it is a very grey area - one where not even the experts can agree. It's probably only likely to become an issue if large amounts of money are involved. Once you get before a court of law, and a judge with little understanding of music, who knows which way it will go? This is why things are usually settled out of court. No one wants to risk losing everything. 

~C


----------



## ChrisAxia (Apr 3, 2011)

Regarding orchestral works, of course if you can show that similar orchestration has been in existence for hundreds of years, you should be fine. 

~C


----------



## tripit (Apr 3, 2011)

RiffWraith @ Sun Apr 03 said:


> Hmmmm...very interesting.
> 
> Here is another:
> 
> ...



Exactly. It's not about copyright. 
And yes, it would be very difficult to prove that a given film score composer has the unique personal sound that could be infringed upon. I think the closest would probably be Thomas Newman, but it would still be very difficult. Waits has such a unique style and sound. With someone like Elfman, well you just have to no further than Nina Rotta. Most of the rest are a collection of previous film composers and classical composers. None of them are so wholly unique. 

It's so highly unlikely that I wouldn't loose sleep over it. But, you all so have to remember that a certain judge could determine otherwise in a particular case. And in most law, precedence plays important role. Not to mention intent. Someday we may very well see a situation where some like HZ is able to sue a production company over the infringement of his sound. It would probably take a clear path of intent, maybe a company that tried to hire HZ but couldn't get him to do it and then a score that ghosted HZ so closely in style that it would be obvious to the lay person that it was to make people believe that it was indeed HZ. 

Also, you need a person who is willing to pursue. Waits is notorious in his pursuit of would be infringers. Someone like HZ probably doesn't give a damn, and also I think a lot of composers wouldn't want to open this can of worms - they all borrow heavily.


----------



## RiffWraith (Apr 3, 2011)

tripit @ Mon Apr 04 said:


> Also, you need a person who is willing to pursue. Waits is notorious in his pursuit of would be infringers. Someone like HZ probably doesn't give a damn, and also *I think a lot of composers wouldn't want to open this can of worms - they all borrow heavily*.



Very good point.



tripit @ Mon Apr 04 said:


> It would probably take a clear path of intent, maybe a company that tried to hire HZ but couldn't get him to do it and then a score that ghosted HZ so closely in style that it would be obvious to the lay person that it was to make people believe that it was indeed HZ.



Good point there too - hadn't thought of that. And yes, those people did try to hire Waits - maybe that's what turned the tide in his favor, and gave him the ability to show the intent of "stealing his character & personality rights". I wonder if he would have had a case had the attempt to hire him not have been made?


----------



## tripit (Apr 3, 2011)

nikolas @ Sun Apr 03 said:


> This IS interesting and quite weird, frankly. I can only think that someone was able to prove that the 'sound' of a particular composer was as important as the melodies or the harmonic progression (along with voicing, right?).
> 
> If I may ask another question: If ideas are not copyrighted (which is what I also know), but patented, how the hell did Facebook owner got sued and had to give away 65,000,000$ to the twins who said he stole their idea?!?!?!?



That was based on an oral agreement and the fact that the brothers had already been engaged to develop a social website for Harvard, and then brought Zuckerberg in as a partner to take over the programming. Zuckerberg then proceeded to program the site, while holding the brothers at bay for several months. Once he had the site running, he registered it as Facebook under his own name. By all accounts, it was pretty clear that he had screwed them.


----------



## tripit (Apr 3, 2011)

RiffWraith @ Sun Apr 03 said:


> tripit @ Mon Apr 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Also, you need a person who is willing to pursue. Waits is notorious in his pursuit of would be infringers. Someone like HZ probably doesn't give a damn, and also *I think a lot of composers wouldn't want to open this can of worms - they all borrow heavily*.
> ...



That's a good question. In Waits cases, in almost all of them, as far as I can tell, they had approached him first. But, also, he is sooooo distinct in style that he could probably make a case anyway. But an attempt to hire before infringement is a clear path of intent. You couldn't claim coincidence in defense, and that will certainly weigh in on the verdict. 

Also, say if someone were hired to knock off some work for an ad or trailer and the producers had already approached the artist but did not secure a deal - that's a huge red flag to the artist or publishing company. I can guarantee you in most cases, certainly in the bigger more diligent publishing companies, they will be alerted and looking for a knock off.


----------



## MichaelL (Apr 3, 2011)

tripit @ Sun Apr 03 said:


> Because a trademark sound has to physically sound like the sound. You might have something that borrows from Elfman's arrangement style, but still doesn't sound like Elfman's sound. That in no way sounded like it came from an Elfman score.



@tripit your arguments are closest to the way courts have viewed this issue.

There is a difference between plagiarism, copying of a musical work, and a sound alike as in the context of the Tom Waits case.

In the first instance we are speaking of notes or words on paper -- a piece of intellectual property.

In the second instance we are speaking of the personal characteristics or qualities of someone's voice -- two very different things. The second deals with personality rights. A singer's voice is like an actor's image. It's different than intellectual property. You cannot plagiarize someone's face (in a practical sense, but I'm sure some have tried) The other case that dealt with the second issue was Bette Midler v. Ford Motor Co. Here are two articles on the subject.

http://www.futureofthemusicbusiness.biz/2010/12/sound-alikes.html (http://www.futureofthemusicbusiness.biz ... likes.html)
http://personalityrightsdatabase.com/in ... ler_v_Ford


Regarding HZ's spiccato strings or the commercial that sounds like Danny Elfman, it's a different thing. Chris is on the right track. With orchestration, you only need to find examples in the public domain of similar techniques to mount a defense. And chances are, Messrs. Zimmer and Elfman were influenced by previous composers' styles and techniques, who were influenced by previous composers...etc.
Unlike the Waits and Midler cases, sounding like Zimmer or Elfman is merely a question of style, but not personality. 

No court has banned the use of delayed guitars, because they sound like U2. We haven't thrown away our Harmon mutes, because that's Miles' sound.
But, if you copy the notes, it's another story -- it's plagiarism.


_Michael


----------



## Dan Mott (Apr 3, 2011)

Wouldn't it be nice is everyone didn't sound like...everyone, and maybe I'd like a few tracks the pop up once in a while.

I'm mainly referring to the pop industry. I feel for composers who have tight deadlines and need to get thing out quickly. If they end up sounding like someone else, eh, someone needs to do their job. 

I think the main themes of movies need to step up a bit, coming up with something more memorable, like star wars and indiana Jones and so forth. IMO.


----------



## Udo (Apr 3, 2011)

I find it curious that the USA is so fanatical about plagiarism, considering they celebrate their first act of plagiarism on the 4th of July, every year  .

There's a lot more than "just a striking resemblance" between the US Declaration of Independence and the Dutch 1581 declaration, incl. the preamble. Research has confirmed that Jefferson consciously referred to that document.

Also, John Adams (2nd US president) said that the Dutch charters had "been particularly studied, admired, and imitated in every State" in America, and he stated that "the analogy between the means by which the two republics [Holland and U.S.A.] arrived at independency... will infallibly draw them together."

The Netherlands/Holland has become a monarchy since then :wink: .


----------



## NYC Composer (Apr 4, 2011)

If the Dutch sue, I'm outa here.

Meanwhile, back in TV land, composers for commercials in NYC (myself included) were asked to sign agreements with major agencies to 'indemnify and hold harmless" (the agencies) from lawsuits based on infringement of copyrights-and if the composer didn't sign the agreement, no job. This whilst being simultaneously asked by the agencies to 'make it sound like this', citing some popular piece of music. It was a nightmare scenario, and I know of at least one friend who got caught up in it.


----------



## Mike Connelly (Apr 4, 2011)

RiffWraith @ Sun Apr 03 said:


> I think your musicologist needs a reality check. If he meant 'soundalikes' to be specific tracks, then yes. But if he meant 'soundalikes' to be one composer to the next, then no. Copyright protects original works of authorship, which includes musical works, but does not protect ideas, concepts, systems, or methods of doing something.



This pretty much sums it up. Vocals are a special case, it's more likeness rights than anything specifically musical. I haven't seen a specific case over a style, and I suspect the Glenn Miller one is a soundalike of Sing Sing Sing (which has been copied a million times, some closer than others).



midphase @ Sun Apr 03 said:


> For instance, is this commercial a trademark/copyright infringement of Danny Elfman's "sound"?
> 
> http://creativity-online.com/work/disco ... ssors/6106



The sound, no. But the track is pretty similar to Study Montage from Back to School, especially the piano arpeggios and a couple lines at the end.


----------



## mverta (Apr 4, 2011)

Yes, this is ridiculous.

If this were the case, John Williams would be in trouble. If you know your Schuman, Hanson, Walton, Holst and a handful of others, you know the Williams sound. And there are no shortage of cases where passages from great works are nearly quoted in his music.

_Mike


----------



## windshore (Apr 4, 2011)

FYI Sing, Sing, Sing was Benny Goodman.

The Goodman estate has been very aggressive about suing anyone who comes close to that song, or others. The big band era is probably one of the few that can present real difficulties because if you are asked to do "something that sounds like..." you are going to need to use similar instrumentation and harmonies. It's tough. Of course if copyright law was unchanged from the 40's, this would all be public domain already... but it's not.


----------



## Mike Connelly (Apr 4, 2011)

My bad, thanks for correcting me. Probably something like In the Mood then, I'd bet the tune in question still sounds like a specific song and not a general style.


----------



## tripit (Apr 4, 2011)

mverta @ Mon Apr 04 said:


> Yes, this is ridiculous.
> 
> If this were the case, John Williams would be in trouble. If you know your Schuman, Hanson, Walton, Holst and a handful of others, you know the Williams sound. And there are no shortage of cases where passages from great works are nearly quoted in his music.
> 
> _Mike



Like I said- even if were possible from a legal perspective, composers aren't going to want to open that can of worms. It would drag them out into the light, screaming "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain" 

Half of the fun of studying scores is to play "spot the classical ripoff" in all of them. And don't even get me started on James Horner.


----------



## ChrisAxia (Apr 5, 2011)

tripit @ Tue Apr 05 said:


> mverta @ Mon Apr 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, this is ridiculous.
> ...



As I and others have said previously, if you can point to orchestration/style that was done by the dead 'masters', then of course, it should not be an issue. However, there are present day composers who do have their own style/sound that is quite unique and that is where you could come unstuck, IF there are serious amounts of money involved.

From what I learnt that evening, it is rarely the writers that take legal action. It's the big labels/publishers. They figure that as they have the money and the lawyers already, it's worth taking a gamble.

~C


----------



## gsilbers (Apr 5, 2011)

what are you all talking about?!?! 

film music sounds all the same!


----------



## gsilbers (Apr 5, 2011)

joking aside...

ill leave it to the director and producers to deal with that stuff. remember they will own the copyright of the music (or the movie studio)
so whatever really. 
if it sounds too close, just write an email saying so and that legal should check it. 
then you have an email proof that you said something and u passed the ball to the producers/director so they become liable and not you. 
you in good faith tried to help. 
if they say its too close then change it. 
thats it. dont sweat it.


----------



## Mike Connelly (Apr 7, 2011)

ChrisAxia @ Tue Apr 05 said:


> However, there are present day composers who do have their own style/sound that is quite unique and that is where you could come unstuck, IF there are serious amounts of money involved.



I'd be curious to hear a specific example of a current composer with a style/sound that's distinctive enough that doing something similar would be a breach of copyright.


----------



## snowleopard (Apr 8, 2011)

Well, Tom Newman's sound comes to mind. But if that were the case, he's already been mimicked _ad nauseum_ over the last decade, it would have to take some sort of huge spat you'd think. 

Anyone remember the movie Risky Business? Tangerine Dream did a couple of lucid sequencer tracks that sounded a lot like Steve Reich. They more than once openly listed him as an inspiration for their music, and Reich seemed to view it as flattery and didn't call the lawyers, though he did confront the Orb when they were even more direct in their "inspiration". Yet Reich himself has admitted his influences, even directly stating Stravinsky's Agon as a model for some of his writing. 

Does anyone remember about a decade ago when William Orbit produced Madonna's Ray of Light album, and even though he'd been highly respected for several years, his "sound" got pretty hot and was imitated in various ways on dozens of commercial spots and elsewhere? If he weren't already successful, and probably wealthy, you'd think he could have called the law firm and...

*tripit* mentioned the HZ spiccatto phrasing, but we had a thread on that several weeks ago about how this sound of his really wasn't _that_ original, and we were both pointing out those who had done similar before, and several members here were able to deftly mimic it.


----------



## NYC Composer (Apr 8, 2011)

To whoever saw my post regarding indemnifying producers and agencies, I would say that you have much more to fear in copying sequences of notes and rhythms that you do of copying 'styles', unless you're talking about styles re/ singers.


----------



## ChrisAxia (Apr 9, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Sat Apr 09 said:


> To whoever saw my post regarding indemnifying producers and agencies, I would say that you have much more to fear in copying sequences of notes and rhythms that you do of copying 'styles', unless you're talking about styles re/ singers.



Indeed you are correct. It is just worrying that now we now have to consider 'styles/sound' as well.

~C


----------



## Synesthesia (Apr 9, 2011)

In the UK there is the 'intent to copy'.

If the original copyright owner was contacted about clearing a work, and it was too expensive for the agency, and you rip it off, thats a pretty clear 'intent to copy' - *irrespective* of how you change the notes, chords etc etc.

If it sounds similar to 'the man on the clapham omnibus' you are busted.


----------

