# 15 30 60 second library music cues discussion



## robert baldwin (Aug 3, 2018)

Hello all,

What are your techniques for pulling 15, 30 and 60 second cues from a full piece? If one has a chorus that lands at say 35 seconds long, does one change the tempo/time stretch to fit into 30 seconds? Obviously, the 15/30/60 second cue will then have a different tempo to the main full length mix. Is this ever a problem for library music? Thanks.


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## lucor (Aug 3, 2018)

This might be worth a read:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=10829715&postcount=5
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=10832836&postcount=13


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## robert baldwin (Aug 3, 2018)

lucor said:


> This might be worth a read:
> https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=10829715&postcount=5
> https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=10832836&postcount=13


Thanks very much. On it now. I'll report back.


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## Dietz (Aug 3, 2018)

robert baldwin said:


> [...] Obviously, the 15/30/60 second cue will then have a different tempo to the main full length mix. Is this ever a problem for library music? Thanks.


As someone who worked _with_ library music more than _on_ library music in former days, I can assure you that this would be a problem, yes.


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## DanPhaseMusic (Aug 3, 2018)

There’s always a way. I normally just get the scissors out and hack away until I’m in the right area. If you know that the deliverables are gonna be full,1 min, 30 sec,15sec etc before you start you can avoid a lot of headaches by just structuring things towards it as you go.

One thing I often do is try and have starts and ends that I can lengthen or shorten to hit the exact second. So a whoosh type thing at the start that you can cut into and shorten when you’ve bounced the tune can help get you from 33 secs to 30. Same with the end. A final chord can ring for as long as 4 secs without sounding ridiculous. Or you can cut it down to 1 with a little editing.

Dan


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## robert baldwin (Aug 3, 2018)

lucor said:


> This might be worth a read:
> https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=10829715&postcount=5
> https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=10832836&postcount=13





Dietz said:


> As someone who worked _with_ library music more than _on_ library music in former days, I can assure you that this would be a problem, yes.


Thanks for the heads up. I figured it may be the case. Just trying to get my head around some logical edits at the moment. Thanks.


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## robert baldwin (Aug 3, 2018)

robert baldwin said:


> Thanks very much. On it now. I'll report back.





lucor said:


> This might be worth a read:
> https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=10829715&postcount=5
> https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=10832836&postcount=13


Yes, very informative. Thanks a lot.


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## robert baldwin (Aug 3, 2018)

DanPhaseMusic said:


> There’s always a way. I normally just get the scissors out and hack away until I’m in the right area. If you know that the deliverables are gonna be full,1 min, 30 sec,15sec etc before you start you can avoid a lot of headaches by just structuring things towards it as you go.
> 
> One thing I often do is try and have starts and ends that I can lengthen or shorten to hit the exact second. So a whoosh type thing at the start that you can cut into and shorten when you’ve bounced the tune can help get you from 33 secs to 30. Same with the end. A final chord can ring for as long as 4 secs without sounding ridiculous. Or you can cut it down to 1 with a little editing.
> 
> Dan


I was thinking that. I'm new to library stuff so I have composed a load of material over the past couple of months and then realised about the shorter cues. I'll definitely take this into account. I'm used to long form scores that are usually placed into the final picture and faded out where appropriate. Thanks.


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## CGR (Aug 3, 2018)

robert baldwin said:


> Hello all,
> 
> What are your techniques for pulling 15, 30 and 60 second cues from a full piece? If one has a chorus that lands at say 35 seconds long, does one change the tempo/time stretch to fit into 30 seconds? Obviously, the 15/30/60 second cue will then have a different tempo to the main full length mix. Is this ever a problem for library music? Thanks.


My Publisher requests Full & 30 sec (00:29) versions, and sometimes 60 sec (00:59) versions. It's certainly easier editing a track at 120 or 90 BPM, but I rarely have a track that doesn't require some adjustment or sometimes replaying lines/parts to have the 30 & 60 sec versions make sense musically.

Earlier on my Publisher would create their own edits from my full tracks, but I was never happy with them (quite often they had an abrupt fade out) so now I create all edits myself. FWIW, I never contract or expand the tempo to make the 30 & 60 sec versions fit (as I'm sure that would create issues for video/film editors working with the tracks).


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## CGR (Aug 3, 2018)

Here's a link to my Production Music albums if you'd like to hear how I do my edits:

http://www.motionfocusmusic.com/search/albums/release/k_Craig-Richards

_Note: Some of the 30 sec edits on some of my tracks from the earlier albums 'Sentimental Journeys' & 'Jazz Bar' were done by the Publisher. 'Living the Lifestyle', 'The Red Carpet Collection' & 'Jazz Bar' are compilation albums with other composers. 'Piano Horizons', 'Sentimental Journeys' & 'Piano Moments' contain entirely my own compositions._


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## robert baldwin (Aug 3, 2018)

CGR said:


> Here's a link to my Production Music albums if you'd like to hear how I do my edits:
> 
> http://www.motionfocusmusic.com/search/albums/release/k_Craig-Richards
> 
> _Note: Some of the 30 sec edits on some of my tracks from the earlier albums 'Sentimental Journeys' & 'Jazz Bar' were done by the Publisher. 'Living the Lifestyle', 'The Red Carpet Collection' & 'Jazz Bar' are compilation albums with other composers. 'Piano Horizons', 'Sentimental Journeys' & 'Piano Moments' contain entirely my own compositions._


Thanks. I'm loving the 'SJ' and 'Jazz Bar' stuff. Just having a listen to the others now. Great recordings too.


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## robert baldwin (Aug 3, 2018)

CGR said:


> My Publisher requests Full & 30 sec (00:29) versions, and sometimes 60 sec (00:59) versions. It's certainly easier editing a track at 120 or 90 BPM, but I rarely have a track that doesn't require some adjustment or sometimes replaying lines/parts to have the 30 & 60 sec versions make sense musically.
> 
> Earlier on my Publisher would create their own edits from my full tracks, but I was never happy with them (quite often they had an abrupt fade out) so now I create all edits myself. FWIW, I never contract or expand the tempo to make the 30 & 60 sec versions fit (as I'm sure that would create issues for video/film editors working with the tracks).


I think the problem I have with this first album I have written is that I have steamed in a written a load of stuff that has time signature changes all through it. I may just have this one marketed as full length tracks for documentaries and film sync haha and chalk this one up to experience. It's making the edits very difficult unless I reverse engineer the tracks right back to the midi and initial recordings from earlier sessions (I come from a scoring background so that has not helped - I can't help going overboard with the layers and found sounds/rhythmic changes etc) Will have to curb that methinks.


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## CGR (Aug 3, 2018)

robert baldwin said:


> I think the problem I have with this first album I have written is that I have steamed in a written a load of stuff that has time signature changes all through it. I may just have this one marketed as full length tracks for documentaries and film sync haha and chalk this one up to experience. It's making the edits very difficult unless I reverse engineer the tracks right back to the midi and initial recordings from earlier sessions (I come from a scoring background so that has not helped - I can't help going overboard with the layers and found sounds/rhythmic changes etc) Will have to curb that methinks.


Reverse engineering the tracks sounds like a huge amount of work. I try and find a balance of writing tracks with a constant tempo (and do my best for them not to sound repetitive by varying the instrumentation) and more free-flowing tracks which have distinct themes/motifs/cues which also edit down well and would be useful from an editor's perspective, and would support the moving image.


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## Mike Marino (Aug 3, 2018)

When doing those kind of edits for a library I don't ever touch the tempo. Like @DanPhaseMusic pointed out I start cutting things out with the scissors until I've arrived at something that works. When I'm writing the initial track I know I'm going to have to make these edits eventually...so my brain is probably keeping track of them somewhere in the writing process to make it a little easier for this type of thing at the end.

The reason I never touch the tempo is that I want to give the editor the ability to throw all of these different music edits into their project and be able to move through and/or make their own cuts/edits as easily as possible. Discovering different tempos throughout the the composer's edits of the same track would pose a problem in this case....and could result in them not using that track in the end.


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## robert baldwin (Aug 6, 2018)

Mike Marino said:


> When doing those kind of edits for a library I don't ever touch the tempo. Like @DanPhaseMusic pointed out I start cutting things out with the scissors until I've arrived at something that works. When I'm writing the initial track I know I'm going to have to make these edits eventually...so my brain is probably keeping track of them somewhere in the writing process to make it a little easier for this type of thing at the end.
> 
> The reason I never touch the tempo is that I want to give the editor the ability to throw all of these different music edits into their project and be able to move through and/or make their own cuts/edits as easily as possible. Discovering different tempos throughout the the composer's edits of the same track would pose a problem in this case....and could result in them not using that track in the end.


Good advice. Thanks.


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## R. Soul (Aug 6, 2018)

With production music you want to avoid tempo changes, key changes and time signature changes. Why? 
Editors often cut your track and loop sections in order to make it fit the picture, and that becomes increasingly difficult when you've suddenly have gone from 90 BPM to 120 BPM, from C major to F# minor and from 4/4 to 3/4.

Similarly, time stretching edits are also a bad idea, as editors now can't mix and match your 60s edit with your 30s one.


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## benmrx (Aug 6, 2018)

This is a topic I'm going to touch on in a video very soon. Maybe in the next few weeks. FWIW, I would NEVER use a pre-made 30 edit for a 30 spot...., because the chances are virtually zero that the pre-made 30 is going to line up with how the spot is edited, and where the VO lands. I will always grab the full length version and make my own 30 so I have more material to to work with.

As someone that cuts 15's, 30's, 60's all the time _from_ library music tracks (and my own cues) here's a few tips on how to either make my life easier..., so your track sounds better in the final spot, or your life easier if your publisher wants you to create your own 15's, 30's, 60's from full tracks.

-No tempo changes (unless it's truly suppose to be an organic orchestral cue..., or actually IS a live orchestra).
-No meter changes (unless same as above).
-Any reversed whooshes, cymbal sucks, risers, etc. MUST be on their own stem.
-Have a full loop-able version for each section of your cue. So, don't do only one 'A section' with a fill at the end.
-Know that your track is likely to get chopped up..., more then once..., for the same spot (radio vs. tv - Seattle market vs. Texas market - Pandora vs. Youtube, etc.).
-15's should generally KICK in right away. You only have 15 seconds..., so not much time to develop a melody, and it STILL has to serve the spot.
-30's can usually have a quick intro and feel more fleshed out.
-60's obviously give you the most time to explore musically and keep things interesting.
-DON'T end your cue with a button. It's the worst. I have to redo endings ALL the time on YOUR tracks to create a fade. It's easier to create a button ending then it is to create a fade out where there wasn't one to begin with...., and 95% of spots want a fade (in my experience). Comedy tracks can be a different story.

That's it for now..., gotta get some more coffee.


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## R. Soul (Aug 6, 2018)

benmrx said:


> -DON'T end your cue with a button. It's the worst. I have to redo endings ALL the time on YOUR tracks to create a fade. It's easier to create a button ending then it is to create a fade out where there wasn't one to begin with...., and 95% of spots want a fade (in my experience). Comedy tracks can be a different story.
> 
> That's it for now..., gotta get some more coffee.


I'm not familiar with the term 'button' ?
As far as I know a cue should end with a hit, ideally with the 1 chord, which rings out in a couple of seconds.


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## benmrx (Aug 6, 2018)

R. Soul said:


> I'm not familiar with the term 'button' ?
> As far as I know a cue should end with a hit, ideally with the 1 chord, which rings out in a couple of seconds.



By 'button' I mean a quick, percussive 'HIT' for the last note that doesn't ring out. Mostly used (IME) in comedy cues. You are correct, ideally it ends with one chord that rings out for a bit.


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## robert baldwin (Aug 8, 2018)

All this info is very helpful guys. Thanks a lot.

I'm surprised at the amount of big name songwriters, session players, and film score guys writing library music (I suppose I should not be surprised really). The fun part (apart from learning from their methods of construction) is hearing a different side to these artists to fit the remit of library music. You can tell it's the artist, but in library music form; a good example being Vince Clarke, Zimmer and Heitor Pereira on Extreme Music . Excellent fun and an education!


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## Geoff Grace (Aug 19, 2018)

The latest video from Spitfire Audio (by @christianhenson) makes a worthy addition to this thread:



Accompanying journal article here:

Quick Tip: How to Create a Successful Production Music Track

Best,

Geoff


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## robert baldwin (Aug 21, 2018)

Geoff Grace said:


> The latest video from Spitfire Audio (by @christianhenson) makes a worthy addition to this thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks. I love the Henson Meister. Here's another one that may be interesting to you guys:


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## Jeremy Spencer (Aug 21, 2018)

Don't overthink it. You'll find that with some creativity and arranging of the original track, the 30 and 60 edits are quite simple to create.


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## Counterpointer (Aug 22, 2018)

Great video.


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