# Help on brass orchestration/bigger sound



## impressions (Jul 15, 2010)

i'm experimenting with brass orchestrations/compositions.
this is kinda sports-western thing, very short also, no worries.

http://www.box.net/shared/pdt2k6i4is

i went for that stupid riding cliche after the middle, cause i wanted to give it more energy and bigger sound..

there are number of ways to go after you make this kind of intro, what would you recommend to try?


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## MacQ (Jul 30, 2010)

Bigger sound? You'll need better samples for that. That trumpet sound is awful ... what library is that?? You're getting completely let down by those samples. Also, where's the downbeat? I'm having a hard time finding it ... and if you want that western syncopation, you gotta let the listener know what you're syncopating against. Even a simple roll in on timpani would do it. Or a tambourine tapping 1/4's. Something like that.

Places to go? Even bigger ... add strings, develop the theme, and then break out into a melodic thing over horse-riding rhythms, then return to fanfare. That's what I'd suggest.

~Stu


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## Jimbo 88 (Jul 30, 2010)

I'm going to disagree a little with MarcQ. The samples ain't so bad. Hiding the down beat can be effective, after that I'll agree. You need a little better definition with your phrasing. Brass in a real orchestra attacks very well. Doing big Orch stuff like this -you are starting down a long road with lots to learn. It's hard to help you out with just this little piece. Keep plucking away you'll have lots of fun.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 30, 2010)

Impressions, I don't critique people's work online but a word of caution. You may get a lot of negative responses to your piece telling you everything you are doing wrong. Before you take anyone's advice/opinion to heart, you might want to visit their website or listen to posting they have done here and see if they have posted any good sounding examples of the kind of piece you are trying to accomplish. Talk is cheap.


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## Frederick Russ (Jul 30, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Fri Jul 30 said:


> Impressions, I don't critique people's work online but a word of caution. You may get a lot of negative responses to your piece telling you everything you are doing wrong. Before you take anyone's advice/opinion to heart, you might want to visit their website or listen to posting they have done here and see if they have posted any good sounding examples of the kind of piece you are trying to accomplish. Talk is cheap.



Occasionally Jay comes out with some really helpful advice - in this instance this is one of them and I agree. At this stage of the game it might be more helpful to find a few talented friends whose ears you trust, run it by them first privately and set it up so they can be very honest with you and offer suggestions to improve.

That said, since you posted it here, I thought it was a courageous attempt overall but the samples you're using are definitely letting you down especially trumpet. Higher registers can be somewhat problematic overall in mockup land and you have plenty way up there in higher registers. If this is going to real players that really is a moot point though. Hope this helps somewhat.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 30, 2010)

Occasionally? Harumph :lol:


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## JohnG (Jul 30, 2010)

Hi there -- fun writing!

I think your piece is good and agree that a bit more on the orchestration side might help out. And I also agree with others who've posted that the thin trumpet samples you are using will prevent your really hearing what you've done.

Put differently, it's kind of hard to be sure whether you have a good piece or not if the samples are letting you down and you don't have sufficient experience with live players to be sure of what it would really sound like if played by good players.

Suggest a couple of things:

1. Free and (fairly) easy: Go to the library and check out a copy of Appalachian Spring -- the full orchestra version if you can get it, not the chamber music version. Listen to a recording and learn from Mr. Copland.

2. More challenging -- try to get a brass ensemble to play the piece and record it. If you go to a big university you might be able to get a student ensemble to at least read your chart without paying much more than maybe a case of beer. Another great benefit of this approach is that, possibly, you are writing in too high a register for the trumpets to sound big and round. Theoretically, a studio player can play a concert D or higher (above the treble stave) but in real life those notes can get a little wobbly, pitch-wise, and sound thin with any but the best players. If you are writing for students, a concert Bb is going to be high enough to get the feeling that I think you're going for. However, if you're at Berklee or Julliard or can talk an ensemble like that into reading through the piece, I would guess what you have could sound fine.

Also, if you are writing up there, a "forte" is usually plenty as far as a dynamic. You probably don't need fff.

3. Check out from your library or buy a copy of Sam Adler's Orchestration book -- and the CDs that come with it (very important) -- and read / listen to his advice. There are other books but this is my favourite.

4. Not free -- You might consider buying an orchestral library that sounds a little more robust. Personally, I like East West's library and for a student, it's not too expensive these days. The "silver" edition is $195 --$135 for students -- but you would also need an iLok which, if you don't have it, runs about $50. There was a free version offered but that promotion's over. I am not sure how satisfying the silver edition is; I use Platinum, which costs more -- $695 for the student purchase. When it first came out, I paid over $4,000 for it, so today's prices look like a good deal to me. 

The subject of libraries is often debated. I still use these samples in writing for movies and movie trailers, even though they are many years old now but others prefer -- others. Listen to the demos, listen to the music of those using the libraries you are considering, look at your pocketbook, and make a call.

Any of the good-quality libraries out there will likely provide an improvement over what you are using.

Nice writing and thanks for posting.


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## careyford (Jul 30, 2010)

I have to echo John overall. The writing sounds fun and very promising. Additionally, if you experiment with ways to clean up the sound (especially the brass attacks) with this library, you can learn some skills that will serve you well with the better libraries. 

One caveat, don't spend too long on this piece. Do another one. Keep writing and post more.

Richard

(And Jay frequently posts advice I think is good...)


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## Frederick Russ (Jul 30, 2010)

careyford @ Fri Jul 30 said:


> (And Jay frequently posts advice I think is good...)



See Jay? You're developing a fan base.


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## gsilbers (Jul 30, 2010)

i dont think its that small sounding. 

a few suggestions; 

maybe double the instruments u have with the same instruments but from other sample libraries. so the trumpet sounds more like a brass section. maybe change octaves around. like a french horn double the trumpet but lower in the mix. and also a flute on the upper regsiters but lower in the mix. dunno really, just experiment. see if that helps. 
in sampling world doubling/tripling done right is very powerful tool. 

the song seems to sound a little "raw" . all the instruments dont land at the same time sometimes. dunno if its creative to give it a looser feel. 

to me sounds like cowboy movie music from old school movies. which didnt sound huge, it sounded like this, which is not bad at all. 


the other thing is the mix. you have to ride those faders. some stacc notes really stand out, and there is something in the lower mids thats making it not clear. 
maybe french horns+bass drum interaction. 
dynamics are out of wak. 

maybe orchestration wise the trumpet is being answered by the brass (other brass) that its interaction makes it seem unclear. maybe the brass acent to be doubled by another section, group, solo instr/perc. dunno. but i think it ggoes along with my previous comment about sounding raw and not landing in time, which maybe its the that separation between trumpets and the rest of the brass. not saying THIS IS the reason , its just a suggestion. 

i recently worked on restoring audio for old cowboy movies and this cue sounds like it just came out from one of those movies  
culpepper cattle, the undefeted, .. that sort of sound.. if u ran it through a lot of tapes machines and 30 years of neglect it would be even closer  

very cool.


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## Ian Dorsch (Jul 30, 2010)

There is a lot of excellent advice posted in this thread already! I'd start with John's suggestions--listening and analyzing great brass writing is a good place to start, and I agree with what's been said regarding the quality of the samples. It wouldn't take a huge investment to improve your sound dramatically.

That said, I enjoyed your piece, and I look forward to hearing what comes next.


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## impressions (Aug 1, 2010)

Narval @ Sun Aug 01 said:


> impressions @ Thu Jul 15 said:
> 
> 
> > I would suggest you do a mock up of this piece: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzf0rvQa4Mc



its my favourite brass piece, the one john williams stole.


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## JohnG (Aug 1, 2010)

I think that perhaps everyone has stolen that piece.

And by the way, your writing is not "way out" of the correct register. Unless my ears deceive (which they might; it's kind of hard to hear at times what's actually in the brass and what's in the strings etc.), the highest trumpet note is a concert c, which is not that high for top professionals, though possibly thin and also can burn the lips out of many players fairly quickly. 

So if I'm hearing it correctly, the brass is at most a minor third too high, probably just a major second, so hardly a grave error. And, if you like where it sits, double the trumpets with trombones an octave down and hire world-class players, and most likely you would be happy with it as-is.

So don't take criticism too much to heart. As gsilbers wrote, times change, and today's "bigger than life" mentality -- one particularly prevalent among those enamoured of trailer music and the big sound of major action scores -- is, as he pointed out, a far cry from what was considered great 60 years ago (or less).

And not even 60 years ago. If you want to hear a current composer who's clearly a student of what's been done before but makes a major effort to make his own work new and original, check out Marco Beltrami's work. It's wonderful in and of itself, so fun to listen to, and in addition, he's going for a different objective than some other composers today. Other guys too: 

David Torn (Lars and the Real Girl -- a charming, very musical and touching score that brings a graciousness and gentleness to a film that could otherwise have come across as creepy and just kind of weird. With the score it's quite touching and even moving); 

Nick Cave and Warren Ellis (The Assassination of Jesse James); and

our own Christian Henson (Black Death -- wonderful score and lots of fun to listen to).

Not only are all these scores effective, they don't draw on the "cast of thousands" orchestral resources.

Even Michael Giacchino doesn't always go big; his work for the tv show "Lost" is my favourite of what I've heard him do.

So anyway, don't take the criticism you've received too hard, or even too seriously. Your piece is fun, genuine and entertaining. Those are qualities that plenty of heavily-schooled academics would do well to emulate.


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## impressions (Aug 1, 2010)

John,
regarding orchestrating the trumpet part:
my teacher told me that its not such a good register to give trumpet to play this at a forte level-(the riding part), since the middle for non virtouse players would sound more in the range of piano.
the best players are the ones who can play on the "piano" register as "forte" and "forte" on a "piano" register, i think williams even has a particular trumpet player for that kind of tasks.

past compositions in context to modern-
it sounds from the examples that you're not necessary convinced its the right approach for a professional composer to take. as a jazz musician- i found going back as much to the roots as possible gives more versatility in the style.
but, it may be something i need to change, since there is a so much to learn-is it even possible to achieve that kind of pure continuation.
still, if you have the small time and expanse to learn from a master... especially since i'm not sure the exercises i invent for myself will bring me closer-from just one class i learned so much about stuff i had no clue where to emphasis-hybrid chords, seconds and septima's relation to tonality centers etc etc..

p.s.
thanks for all your answers!


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## bryla (Aug 1, 2010)

impressions @ Sun Aug 01 said:


> the best players are the ones who can play on the "piano" register as "forte" and "forte" on a "piano" register, i think williams even has a particular trumpet player for that kind of tasks.


Had anyway. Maurrice Murphy was first trumpet at the LSO up until recently.


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## Stevie (Aug 2, 2010)

For some tweaking with the sounds you have I would suggest the following:

- shorten the release time of the brass samples around (to 50ms)
- add some ròúd   Þ÷òúd   Þ÷óúd   Þ÷ôúd   Þ÷õúd   Þ÷öúd   Þ÷÷úd   Þ÷øúd   Þ÷ùúd   Þ÷úúd   Þ÷ûúd   Þ÷üúd   Þ÷ýúd   Þ÷þúd   Þ÷ÿúd   Þø úd


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