# The evolution of music and our psychological understanding! (or trailer music sucks)



## Waywyn (Jul 27, 2011)

Hey all,

okay, since there is a new discussion going on about trailer music (as it happens every once in a year) and always constantly discussions about certain composers and music styles being so lame, I thought I would use a moment and talk about what I think pretty much nails it down. I also might work it out and get this done for a new blog post

Okay, here we go:

Music evolves. It constantly evolves ... and if we look at evolution - and as Darwin said - not the strongest and the most intelligent species survives, but the most adaptable one.

Without trying to get a religious discussion going on, there is another important factor which derives from being a child. Children generally try to explain everything in the most easiest way, no matter how ridiculous and unlogic it is.

So if your child asks, why the sky is blue and even it already understands and can talk quite well you simply cannot start a physics discussion about behaviour of lightwaves etc. ... but if you say that God painted it blue, it understands (even though in a vey wrong way) whats going on. Now, it is the best way, to work out with your child why the sky is REALLY blue. I wasn't someone painting it, it really happens because of specific behaviour of light waves. You can sit down with your child and work this out ... and as soon as you found a way to explain it without in a supernatural way, you are one step further ... but still and as in another example. Children will rather think that an oasis has been created for animals, rather than the aninals found this oasis because they were thirsty and settled at this place.

Now what does this have to do with music? Pretty much everything!
WE as composer study, struggle and are mostly eager to learn every corner of theory, harmony, when which instruments sounds how best etc. ... not to start of all the studio process etc.

The usual guy who enjoys music, the potential buyer of a CD, does mostly NOT care about all this. He/she simply wants to get entertained, dream away, clean the brain, get goosebumps, swell in memories or whatever ... the most important thing is NOT how complex the music is (this is only important for other composers). It is also not important how much time signatures and how well thought out the melody is (again, this is just important for composers). The most important thing is, if it touches someone and if there is a certain something in there. And this is a matter of taste!

So now go back to this childrens issue and try to understand music. Lots of people can't stand jazz, it is simply too much. Lots of people don't like classical music, because there is so much rütütütüütütü of flutes and fiififiififiweuiwuiewueiwue of strings going on - it simply is too complex. The same goes for experimental stuff (too weird), death metal (too distorted, just noise) and other styles.

BUT, why is pop music, techno, specific electronic stuff and general easy listening, so successful? Is it because non musicians, non composers, the "default" human is stupid?
No, it is simply too complex most of the times and it might distract their brains from the movie, the trailer. In specifically a person wants to be impressed at a trailer. It is like a good salesman, if he speaks well and clear, he might win a potential client. It is not necessary to switch to Japanese, Sanskrit, express everything in medical or scientific terms - it is simply enough to talk clear, understandable and calm and hitting the client with the specific something.

To me the most essential, most important issue with being a composer is to simply !!!UNDERSTAND THE NON MUSICIANS BRAIN!!!

If you are working in the industry you have to burn your ego, be open for comments, critic and general feedback ... a project you work on, is NOT YOUR project, but you are part of a team collaborating on a project.

So as lots of people might agree with me here. There are things in this bizz who work out and do NOT work out. In general you can NOT get pop or techno into a fantasy movie as you can not do a heavy metal track to a love scene. It is disturbing as much as meat in the counter with a spotlight from a green light. You can not sell sausage chewinggum as you cannot sell chocolate with ham&eggs taste. IT IS NOT WORKING OUT!

Now come back to evolution and Darwins statement (disregarding if you believe in evolution or not) it is a simply proven and 100% pure scientific fact that only something survives when it makes some kind of sense and is adaptable in the environment. Why do you think, that jazz is not really that successful as it deserves to be. Why do we hear smooth jazz while shopping and not the genius music of Coltranes giant steps?! 

Most or some of you know that I went studying music in LA. I had the best guitar teachers. I was jamming with Frank Gambale, I have seen Holdsworth live. Hell, I was surrounded by guitar geniuses, constantly visiting Joe Porcaros drum workshops and we had the pleasure to see many artists in the Baked Potatoe etc.

Now when I came back to Germany, I sat there with all my skills. I felt like fully armed with weapons but on a childrens birthday. What to do with my skill? After the years I experiences that noone wants locrian b7 scales played as 16th arpeggios in tempo 250. NOONE CARED and NOONE CARES.
When friends visiting me I showed them some new technique or skill I developed over months. After a while they did that look and said: Dude, why don't you make music?! .. I was kinda shocked. Here I was, the ultimate skilled guitar player, nailing all kinds of stuff, ... but noone cared in the bizz world. What do I play most now? Major and minor chords, ostinatos consisting of three notes and lots of power chords. You could say, well, why you didn't go into a jazz band and make your fortune ... I would say, which fortune? You don't even have luck as a commercial band?!?

Anyway, when I started a career in a commercial rockpop band I was playing some tracks to my buds, ... the same buds as back then. Those true honest buds, which always tell you the truth and honest opinion ... and they said: Now, you are there!!!

... and again, I was baffled. I didn'tunderstand that logic of mastering skills, mastering all kinds of techniques and stuff, only to forget them ... and then suddenly I realized, over quite long amount of time, that it doesn't matter what you ALL can do, it is only important to use a portion of it in the appropriate situation! That's all.

One very important tool I experienced in my life is the little steady question in my head when approaching a specific situation. It is really simple, but one of the most powerful tools I have. The simple question is:

What (How) would you do (feel), if ....

Ask this little thing to you. Go to a movie and ONLY pay attention to the cut. You might go home and saying, wow music was great, movie was cool ... but would the cutter say the same? I think everybody is finding something in their category of expertise. Everybody paying attention to different things.

Here is an example: When you leave the house, watching the early morning sun. What do you think?

1. Hey, what a beautiful day
2. Bah, that shitty star strikes again, its damn hot
3. Wow, this fusion reactor in the center of our solar system produces so much heat, it still makes my skin feel warm a 150 million kilometers away!

Now think. You as a musician are able to understand the complexity of music and a scientist understands the complexity of our universe .. but does the "normal guy" care about this??? Fuckin NO!  He just wants to get to the beach, listening to some crap drop dead simple 4 chord pop and feeling good!


.. and this is why nom complex, non melody music, easy rhythmic and easy melodic music has its very successful place to be on this planet. Because again, Darwin, if it wouldnt work out for the masses - it simply wouldnt be there!


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## José Herring (Jul 27, 2011)

Alex true.

I think a lot of people who are trained miss the point of music. That is, it's a tool for communicating ideas. Sometimes those ideas are complex, sometimes they are very simple. But as a composer it's our job to know when to use what. Sometimes to communicate an idea you need to use the most advanced tools. Sometimes it requires the most simple tools. 

I can't count the number of really good composers I've come up against that were well trained, but lost out on opportunities because what they were doing was just wrong for the project.

Trailer music more than anything has to be on the nose genre wise. Maybe for some that's limiting, but for me, after doing a lot of movie scores it's pretty challenging. And in all honesty, there is a way to make it pretty cool music none the less.

I will say that I think that if you do too much trailer stuff you'll kind of miss out on those times when you can go off into more intricate writing. But at the same time imo, the point is to communicate something. 

Take your children's example. It's pretty good. But you can extend it even further. If you as a composer are a communicator of ideas it's incumbent upon you to communicate in way that can be understood by people who would be interested in listening. It's like when you talk to somebody. Do you try to talk in a way that would make you seem more intelligent than the person you are talking too? I know people who do this and it's rude. In truth you find ways to talk at the level of the listener. And let your ideas seem intelligent and not necessarily your command of syntax and grammar.

In the end I always try to remember the words of the philosopher Baruch Spinoza. That is to get your ideas across so that people can understand you. If you don't do that then writing music would be an exercise in futility. Kind of like a tree falling in the woods. If nobody cares to witness it, it may of happened but it would have no effect on anybody.

For me true artistic brilliance comes when you have an artist that is not only skilled and can demonstrate that skill but he also has a way of putting things that can be accepted by the population at large.

In the end I judge music by if it speaks to me. I think many others do too. I'm trained and way trained more than a lot of people I know. But, I don't bank on it. It's funny, I just made a quantum leap in composing just recently. And that leap was made by mastering some basic skills that I neglected as too simplistic many years ago. I found some old harmony exerciser from Nadia Boulenger and I started just doing them. To my surprise it has totally revolutionized my understanding of music. 

Imo, what's out about most of us still struggling for success in this industry is not a command of the most complicated musical elements, but rather a mastery of the most basic ones.

Don't know if I rambled too much but those are my thoughts.

best,

Jose


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## lux (Jul 27, 2011)

nevermind


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## Dan Mott (Jul 28, 2011)

Well.....

People like and don't like different things. Trailer music is quite mainstream - wouldn't you agree? I mean, people hear it all the time, in "trailers" when they go to the movies. On TV. On the radio. On their DVD they bought or hired from a store. I can understand why people comment and say that they are sick of a certain sound that mainstream trailer music always seems to have. People say, "Oh, if you don't like trailer music, why listen to it?" - Well, alot of people don't have a choice, especially if you are a musician and pay attention to that sort of stuff. It's like pop music. You will hear pop music no matter what, in the places I mentioned above and there are some who get sick of it and hope for something new. So understand that. It does get annoying. I don't why, but it does.

I don't hate trailer music, nor pop music, but I'm always looking and hoping to hear something new and often I don't unless I really go searching for it. 

Basically, alot of trailer music is the same because it's for the same purpose. However, there's alot of trailer music that differs from the masses, but just not 'out there' enough for people to know or hear because all the stuff that sounds the same is the on going trade that's out in the open right now.

Just IMO.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 29, 2011)

While everything you say is absolutely true, what you are describing is craft, not art. As someone who has spent most of his life as a craftsman in the music business and rarely attempted artistry until much later- I would add this:

!. The craftsman takes whatever his education and skill level and subsumes it for the good of the project he's working on-usually run by someone else who he is beholden to, and gets his agreed upon fee for the work.

2, The artist creates his art, and that is the purpose of what he is doing. He'd like it to sell, surely, but if it doesn't he keeps to his singular vision and carries on, starves, lives off lovers, whatever it takes. He hopes the world eventually comes to him. People either hire him to 'do what he does' and leave him to it, or he doesn't do the work.

This theory is presented in an extremely simplistic way and there are many variations, but in essence, that is how I've always seen it. I don't think trailer music or any pop music form is "bad", I don't judge other music careers, but if you're doing stuff for money and if not for the money you'd be doing other stuff, you're working for hire and practicing a craft.


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## Waywyn (Jul 29, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Fri Jul 29 said:


> While everything you say is absolutely true, what you are describing is craft, not art. As someone who has spent most of his life as a craftsman in the music business and rarely attempted artistry until much later- I would add this:
> 
> !. The craftsman takes whatever his education and skill level and subsumes it for the good of the project he's working on-usually run by someone else who he is beholden to, and gets his agreed upon fee for the work.
> 
> ...



Okay, so assuming that paid project has noone else involved, but me, ... you say the only difference between craftmanship and art is that on craftmanship you get paid to do something and with art you do something and eventually get paid?


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## bryla (Jul 29, 2011)

That's like saying none of Frank Lloyd Wright's buildings were art because they were commisions.

That's like saying Bartók's Concerto for Orchestra is not art.

That's like saying Ravel's Daphnis ét Chloé is not art.

I could go on...


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## Waywyn (Jul 29, 2011)

Dan-Jay @ Fri Jul 29 said:


> Well.....
> 
> People like and don't like different things. Trailer music is quite mainstream - wouldn't you agree? I mean, people hear it all the time, in "trailers" when they go to the movies. On TV. On the radio. On their DVD they bought or hired from a store. I can understand why people comment and say that they are sick of a certain sound that mainstream trailer music always seems to have. People say, "Oh, if you don't like trailer music, why listen to it?" - Well, alot of people don't have a choice, especially if you are a musician and pay attention to that sort of stuff. It's like pop music. You will hear pop music no matter what, in the places I mentioned above and there are some who get sick of it and hope for something new. So understand that. It does get annoying. I don't why, but it does.
> 
> ...



As I totally agree with you, I just want to ask you if the bashing towards trailermusic is a bit more going on here, than towards other styles? I feel yes .. or it simply is my impression compared with a good portion of accident, since it always seems like I am around I read those posts about "Oh no, why does it all the same".


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## Waywyn (Jul 29, 2011)

bryla @ Fri Jul 29 said:


> That's like saying none of Frank Lloyd Wright's buildings were art because they were commisions.
> 
> That's like saying Bartók's Concerto for Orchestra is not art.
> 
> ...



Thank you Thomas. This is spot on. Because it leads us towards the ultimate manifestation of art itself - the Sistine chapel painting of Michelangelo. It was simply hired work by the Church!

You know, I agree with everyone that there is lifeless music out there. I agree with everyone saying that there are "soulless tracks" out there ... but what gives one the right to judge about what someone felt by creating a track? When you create your fine art, do you sometimes cheer up? Do you get goosebumps? Do you shiver when listening a well done track? Is this narcism? No, I think it is the personal overwhelming feeling of having created something AWESOME! So someone comes a long and says .. oh trailer music, shitty brass, shitty choirs. A paid job, thats it.

Some people create their own music, which is definited by art and not being hired, with less fantasy, obsession and passion than someone working on a hired project. Period!


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## Dan Mott (Jul 29, 2011)

Trailer music is an art. I don't think anyone is truly bashing it IMO. I just think the majority are a little bit sick of hearing the same thing. I mean, nobody could really be bothered searching for something new all the time,, right? and when they do find something new, they appreciate it more.


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## Dan Mott (Jul 29, 2011)

and Alex. Are you a little bit annoyed by this? You seem so. If it were me, I just wouldn't care really because there are sooooo many people out there who love trailer music, mainstream or not.


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## Waywyn (Jul 29, 2011)

Dan-Jay @ Fri Jul 29 said:


> and Alex. Are you a little bit annoyed by this? You seem so. If it were me, I just wouldn't care really because there are sooooo many people out there who love trailer music, mainstream or not.



Dan, I totally agree with you. I shouldn't care, ... but I do in a way 
The reasons why, I expressed in this other trailer thread. I simply don't like missinformation stated as a fact, wildly assumed theories which aren't proven and simply an impression.

As I stated before, yes there are many crappy trailer tracks, but if someone states that 90% of trailer music sounds the same, doesn't it kinda lead to a wrong image for people who are start ups and getting into the industry. I don't wanna ride around on the exact number, but to me it is wrong to state a personally felt assumption, a blind prejudgment as a FACT! ... 

Imagine I would write: 90% of all jazz musicians can not play a 4/4 beat for 3 minutes without a playing a break?

90% of all orchestra musicians can not improvise. Do you know how many mails I would receive of musicians feeling quite underrated?

I hope you see where I am coming from!
The other reason why I am annoyed is, because "this trailer music sounds all the same" was the 2nd or 3rd one within a few months by the same person.

To me this is confusing a personal feeling and assumption, wildly thrown into the air and selling it as a ranting fact. In case this thread comes up by the same person within the next few months or week, I would appreciate examples!


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## Waywyn (Jul 29, 2011)

a little to express it in a different way:
There have been people wildly assuming that the world might end in December 2012 ... and there are still people taking it for granted - although it is total nonsense ... if you seed long enough, a tree will grow, no matter how distorted and false the material is!


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## watikutju (Jul 29, 2011)

Yes I agree Alex,
in many western cultures we are so quick to critisize those who share our domain(music) As soon as someone produces something, plays something, or even sings something we seem to (often) immediately think to ourselves 'oh, I could do that...', or 'that was out of key', or 'that was just a three note minor ostinato', or whatever.

We quite easily forget what got us into music in the first place...

It makes us feel good.

And if trailer music does it's job and helps on that subconcious level to entice someone to pay to see a movie - then that person must have 'felt good' about it. And the music has fulfilled it's purpose.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 29, 2011)

bryla @ Fri Jul 29 said:


> That's like saying none of Frank Lloyd Wright's buildings were art because they were commisions.
> 
> That's like saying Bartók's Concerto for Orchestra is not art.
> 
> ...



So Bartok was told-"make it sound like x piece of music "? ( given his oddly interesting style, I wonder who that was)

So Michaelangelo was told was told "emulate this painting style. I want more angels, and get those cherubs outa there" ? 

Maybe they were, and I missed it....and I did say it was a simplistic formula and it's not literal-but when James Horner's music is cut and pasted by Cameron and a music editor, yeah, he's an artist working as a crafstman. 

"I could go on."

Working for money is not exactly the point. Herrmann never allowed anyone to touch a note of his music, not even Hitchcock.That situation is rare in the world of music for hire. I don't know of any writers of trailers who have much of any control whatsoever.

Btw, back on point, as I said at the beginning, your original point is spot on. To make a living in this business, the best formula is to take what you know but write to your audience, not to your erudition.


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## lux (Jul 29, 2011)

i cannot avoid feeling though that it could be a good way to justify (why?) a certain direction a career has taken, buildin a theory system on it.

I think it makes no sense to react to forms of elitisms (yes, sometimes existing here but..hey) creating some strange theories about classic composers being like britney spears or everyone being a prostitute or, again, the public being necessarely a bunch of brain damaged undeads who dont care about the fuck on anything.

I think people care. I think people care about jazz, 16ths, shredding, baroque, whatever comes. You could not have get a success with it, but it doesnt necessarely mean that its dead.

Also, popular styles never had so much success because theyre just easy. Theyre complex forms of musical/verbal/social/style poetry. 

If you think people is famous because of a C turnaround lemme see your 10 million copies with your own C turnaround. Then we'll see.


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## germancomponist (Jul 29, 2011)

I respect Alex as a trailer composer (because I have heared many good and well done compositions from him)

A question: Alex, we all know that many trailer producers are using "trailer music libraries". So maybe this is the reason because I feel that the most trailers sound the same.....?


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## NYC Composer (Jul 29, 2011)

lux @ Fri Jul 29 said:


> i cannot avoid feeling though that it could be a good way to justify (why?) a certain direction a career has taken, buildin a theory system on it.
> 
> I think it makes no sense to react to forms of elitisms (yes, sometimes existing here but..hey) creating some strange theories about classic composers being like britney spears or everyone being a prostitute or, again, the public being necessarely a bunch of brain damaged undeads who dont care about the f#@k on anything.
> 
> ...



Luca-if you're referring to me, there's a vast difference between a musical 'craftsman' and a "prostitute", although I have no problem with the craft of prostitution as it happens.

I agree, those things are not 'dead', they're niches. Niches rarely make a lot of money, but have very loyal fans.


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## lux (Jul 29, 2011)

i was referring to the original post. And I'm a prostitute. I still cant see a reason to build a theory system to demonstrate that people who prefer a beautifully written opera to some of my shit are dead wrong.


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## Waywyn (Jul 29, 2011)

germancomponist @ Fri Jul 29 said:


> I respect Alex as a trailer composer (because I have heared many good and well done compositions from him)
> 
> A question: Alex, we all know that many trailer producers are using "trailer music libraries". So maybe this is the reason because I feel that the most trailers sound the same.....?



Gunther, please don't get me wrong, but are you trolling?
I, and many others, explained this to you on Vi Control before, also people and also me took time to also do this on Facebook and as far as I remember we also had a email conversation about this (also I am not sure about the last one.) However, I would appreciate that this time you do not publically post any private message as you did on Facebook!!!

Here is it once more: Trailer music is production music which sits on a shelf and is going to be used for a movie trailer when the movie company/trailer house thinks that this specific track serves the trailer best. Meaning, the cutter will use a specific amount of time from a track (or the whole track) and the composer receives a usage fee. Sometimes it happens that a track has been placed in several trailers within a year, so yes, it is actually the same track in several trailers ... and yes, apart from that issue, there are also tracks out there which sound A. crap and/or B. are simply bad soundalikes .. but again, it is definitely not 90% of bad tracks - the rest, as with all styles, is matter of taste!


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## germancomponist (Jul 29, 2011)

BTW: Luca, you can write me a bill! Last week I had done a radio spot layout for a discothek what will be on earth on a local radio station, and here I had used a piece of yours, because I thought it was the right music for this, and they wanted it.


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## Waywyn (Jul 29, 2011)

lux @ Fri Jul 29 said:


> i was referring to the original post. And I'm a prostitute. I still cant see a reason to build a theory system to demonstrate that people who prefer a beautifully written opera to some of my shit are dead wrong.



Sorry, but I either can't make any sense out of your post, but if I get it right, well, yes, there might be people who think you rock, but Paganini sucks because of his "manic self expression" to play faster than light.

My wife for example has poblems with John Williams - especially with his action music. While I think he is brilliant in everything he dies, she is just simply being irritated by his fast and overkilling flute, violin and trumpet "chaos". All the time there is stressy noodling going on. I tried to understand her and yes ... I see a point!


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## germancomponist (Jul 29, 2011)

Not worth it.


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## José Herring (Jul 29, 2011)

germancomponist @ Fri Jul 29 said:


> BTW: Luca, you can write me a bill! Last week I had done a radio spot layout for a discothek what will be on earth on a local radio station, and here I had used a piece of yours, because I thought it was the right music for this, and they wanted it.



I can already hear the discothek crowd chanting: *LUCA, LUCA, LUCA......*


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## Waywyn (Jul 29, 2011)

germancomponist @ Fri Jul 29 said:


> Alex..., many others?
> 
> Opssssss
> 
> ...



Gunther, read my post again, I didn't mention any of these "adding issues". I simply wanted to prevent you posting private messages again as you did on Facebook - because this is a nogo and not nice, ok?


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## germancomponist (Jul 29, 2011)

josejherring @ Fri Jul 29 said:


> germancomponist @ Fri Jul 29 said:
> 
> 
> > BTW: Luca, you can write me a bill! Last week I had done a radio spot layout for a discothek what will be on earth on a local radio station, and here I had used a piece of yours, because I thought it was the right music for this, and they wanted it.
> ...



Yeah, Luca did some very cool music!


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## germancomponist (Jul 29, 2011)

Not worth it.


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## Waywyn (Jul 29, 2011)

germancomponist @ Fri Jul 29 said:


> Waywyn @ Fri Jul 29 said:
> 
> 
> > Gunther, read my post again, I didn't mention any of these "adding issues". I simply wanted to prevent you posting private messages again as you did on Facebook - because this is a nogo and not nice, ok?
> ...



Gunther, ironically that private conversation showed in fact that you manually added all my friends and family and that it wasn't some conspiracy Facebook FriendFinder .. but anyway, I am seriously outta here now.

You obviously keep turning and twisting information around right how you need it. Please for the future, read carefully, try to rephrase correct, don't assume too wildly and try to stay with the facts and most important, try to not to involve people into something, putting something in their mouth only to avoid admitting an error.

Bye Gunther and I wish you success for the future!


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## lux (Jul 29, 2011)

Waywyn @ Fri Jul 29 said:


> lux @ Fri Jul 29 said:
> 
> 
> > i was referring to the original post. And I'm a prostitute. I still cant see a reason to build a theory system to demonstrate that people who prefer a beautifully written opera to some of my [email protected]#t are dead wrong.
> ...



I think my post is somehow obvious. I think there's no really need to constantly state a "theory of relativity" each time one deals with some elitism or criticism related to the styles he pratices and live with.

Its obvious that you feel for your work and respect your directions and efforts. Which is admirable per se.

My impression is that you could take things less personally. There are a few style-related debatable things in trailers-land as much as in other places. Having such a defensive approach sounds a bit odd to me, i'll be sincere. 

Building a theory system to demonstrate that Trance is fun just doesnt work. As a matter of fact Trance, House, Funky and hundred other styles are cool and fun, much often. There is people which hate every eletronic expression, still there are millions lovers in the world for the styles.


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## germancomponist (Jul 29, 2011)

Not worth it.


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## Waywyn (Jul 29, 2011)

lux @ Fri Jul 29 said:


> My impression is that you could take things less personally. There are a few style-related debatable things in trailers-land as much as in other places. Having such a defensive approach sounds a bit odd to me, i'll be sincere.



Luca, please proof me wrong, but to me it seems that the negative opinions towards trailer music is bit more negative on this forum compared to other styles ... and you also have to admit that in general there are even more discussions where pure - pardon me the expression - orchestral music nazis think they are king and other styles of music are just not "that intelligent". To me this is almost some kind of music racicsm!

But you are seriously right (and I don't mean to sound being pissed off), but maybe the next time I see such a post or thread, I should ignore it and rather enjoy my next paycheck, being proud to make my living from music!


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## choc0thrax (Jul 29, 2011)

I have zero idea of what's being said in this thread but it's still kinda interesting. o[])


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## germancomponist (Jul 29, 2011)

Not worth it.


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## choc0thrax (Jul 29, 2011)

Yup, no idea.


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## germancomponist (Jul 29, 2011)

choc0thrax @ Sat Jul 30 said:


> Yup, no idea.


Me too, but........ someone can tell us more......? A peng`


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## José Herring (Jul 29, 2011)

Well from what I can gather.

Alex made a very good point about the acceptability of certain kinds of music linking it to Darwinism evolution of the fittest. 

Then I made a point about writing in a style that communicates to the level and mentality of your audience. NYC Composer and then Luca kind of agreed with Alex, but Luca says why make it so scientific. (imo, kind of an Italia emotional thing vs. the Deutschland hard science type of thinking. Cultural differences).

Then Gunther (fellow German) comes in and says something about using Luca's music and Luca should bill him. What he meant to say is that Luca should invoice him, after all who would pay to have their music used. 

Then Alex gets pissed off because Gunther stole his facebook friends. Kind of low if it's true. Gunther says what's the big deal it's not like Alex knows all these people personally.

Alex seems to have a beef with Gunther. Gunther is coming across a bit jealous of Alex popularity or at least is trying to befriend the same people Alex has befriended maybe towards some professional gains.

All in all, I just want to say that I'm impressed with the amount that Alex has improved at least in the area of writing Game, trailer action tracks over the years and look forward to more of his work.

Am I following so far?

best,

José


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## choc0thrax (Jul 29, 2011)

Nice translation.


How does one steal Facebook friends?


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## NYC Composer (Jul 29, 2011)

Making a living writing music is a beautiful thing regardless of the style of music, and anyone who judges or criticizes anyone else on this board for the style of music they write to make a living should be ridiculed and/or ignored. The end.


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## José Herring (Jul 29, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Fri Jul 29 said:


> Making a living writing music is a beautiful thing regardless of the style of music, and anyone who judges or criticizes anyone else on this board for the style of music they write to make a living should be ridiculed and/or ignored. The end.



Very true.

@choco,

I feel like an old lady at a PTA meeting, but....... apparently, Gunther, went down Alex's friends list and sent people a note and a friend request. Now, Alex, thinks that this included his family members too. Gunther denies this. 

But, I'm really reading between the lines and it's really none of my business and this is how the rumors get started. So I'll shut up now. :lol:


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## lux (Jul 30, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Fri Jul 29 said:


> Making a living writing music is a beautiful thing regardless of the style of music, and anyone who judges or criticizes anyone else on this board for the style of music they write to make a living should be ridiculed and/or ignored. The end.



Larry, i'm not following you. My impression is that the topic wasnt "Why Alex P. sucks while doing trailer music?". Looks to me more like the classic Zimmer debate, or film music Vs. classical music, or...a generical thing about a certain style.

Alex has a story in getting this topic a bit personally. I like Alex, and I see how it comes from a personal feeling and love for the work. Still..

On the other side Gunther doesnt deny that he has more than an obsession with this stuff. He seems open to receive funny replies or just jokes though. So its not so serious.

I think we have a right to debate whats been aired out there. I tend to do it with care, still those jazz vs. rock topics are such a classic...why should we shuddup?

Also it has a sorta German-Epic feel when Gunther and Alex start arguing eachother


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## José Herring (Jul 30, 2011)

lux @ Fri Jul 29 said:


> Also it has a sorta German-Epic feel when Gunther and Alex start arguing eachother



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxvVbeatmBM&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxvVbeat ... re=related)


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## NYC Composer (Jul 30, 2011)

lux @ Sat Jul 30 said:


> NYC Composer @ Fri Jul 29 said:
> 
> 
> > Making a living writing music is a beautiful thing regardless of the style of music, and anyone who judges or criticizes anyone else on this board for the style of music they write to make a living should be ridiculed and/or ignored. The end.
> ...



Sorry, Luca....it seems we misunderstand each other fairly often. I pretty much never tell anyone to shut up- 'The end" was me summing up MY feelings. 

I took Alex's topic ( and I've seen others along this line from him) as a need for validation to some degree-the idea that with all ones learning, one ends up 'dumbing down" things somewhat and finding that pop music and less 'serious' music is legitimate too-well, this seems sort of obvious to me. 

As to the Gunther/Alex feud, I wouldn't have a clue what it's about nor would I want to get involved. Cheers.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 30, 2011)

Oh, btw-NYC Composer is the forum name-Larry's fine. Really


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## germancomponist (Jul 30, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Sat Jul 30 said:


> As to the Gunther/Alex feud, I wouldn't have a clue what it's about nor would I want to get involved. Cheers.



There is no feud. Just only different minds.


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## Waywyn (Jul 30, 2011)

germancomponist @ Sat Jul 30 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sat Jul 30 said:
> 
> 
> > As to the Gunther/Alex feud, I wouldn't have a clue what it's about nor would I want to get involved. Cheers.
> ...



I feel liks justifying in this very last feud question. Right there is no feud, BUT:

Gunther posts this same stupid "why does all trailer music sounds the same" over and over again, through all kinds of social networks and twice or even three times on this forum during the last months. I could ironically say, we can expect the next thread in like a few week asking the same again!

Gunther involved my name in a discussion on Facebook stating something that I have said, but never did. I mentioned that this Facebook friendfinder suggests people to someone. Gunther spread around that I said that the friendfinder grabs and saves emails to Facebook and automatically adds all friends and therefore my wife, too. Hello? How could my wife automatically been added if he doesn't have her email?!?!?

Gunther made a private message conversation public on Facebook and sees no reason why this was wrong. Usually you ask before you do this and simply don't post it without agreement.

Gunther added my whole friends, wife and family and stated that the reason this happened was the friendfinder on Facebook ... whereas the friendfinder doesn't automatically add friends, he just suggests them ... it is on Gunther to click, add as friend. Seriously, why do you add ones wife? Do you meet a composer at a show, exchange a few words with him, having a nice conversation and ask for his wifes phone number to say hi? Sorry!!! I would never see myself on a level of Hollywood composers, but imagine you adding Bill Brown or Jeff Rona on Facebook it may kinda be rude to automatically add his wife, no? I still remember the day, when my door opened, my phone rang and several AIM messages popped up, asking what that Bombe guy wants and if I know him?!

After seeing the point in that Facebook discussion he simply deleted the whole thread by saying, "Let's reset the day and start again" - obviously this is his way of solving problems!


You know guys, I am usually a calm nice human being, friendly, tolerant, listening, funny, spreading a tutorial once in a while, writing hopefully helpful shit, ... BUT I get quite pissed, if someone seems like trolling around and missusing my name and as more or less a side issue which caused the final trigger, constantly bashing the genre I am working in!


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## lux (Jul 30, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Sat Jul 30 said:


> I took Alex's topic ( and I've seen others along this line from him) as a need for validation to some degree-the idea that with all ones learning, one ends up 'dumbing down" things somewhat and finding that pop music and less 'serious' music is legitimate too-well, this seems sort of obvious to me.



Yup, pretty obvious here too. Mosts of us live and love popular styles.

Isnt Larry your name? Or youre asking me to use your forum name?

...its not us misunderstanding eachother, its me which i'm not able to always read between the rows in a foreign language


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## lux (Jul 30, 2011)

anyway, this thing is getting personal, so i join your leaving boat if you have place


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## Waywyn (Jul 30, 2011)

lux @ Sat Jul 30 said:


> anyway, this thing is getting personal, so i join your leaving boat if you have place



Sorry, I just felt like justifying, ... however, take seat!


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## NYC Composer (Jul 30, 2011)

lux @ Sat Jul 30 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sat Jul 30 said:
> 
> 
> > I took Alex's topic ( and I've seen others along this line from him) as a need for validation to some degree-the idea that with all ones learning, one ends up 'dumbing down" things somewhat and finding that pop music and less 'serious' music is legitimate too-well, this seems sort of obvious to me.
> ...



Well, you're smarter than I am. I only know one language and a smattering of others, but couldn't hold a conversation in anything but English.

I was referring to someone calling me "NYC"-yes, Larry is my name, and I'd just as soon people use it.


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## lux (Jul 30, 2011)

haha..."hey NYC!"


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 30, 2011)

I do not have much to say on this that I have not said other times.

Alex does a good job of defining the inexorable nature of evolution and survival of the fittest, but I have come to believe that not all evolution is progress. It is possible, especially for artisitcally-oriented (rather than art) things to evolve but also regress and that is the state of commercial music as a whole today. Trailer music is by no means the worst offender but neither is it a high bellwether mark.

The biggest change that I gave seen is the sheer amount of micro-mangement that clients do with composers today, simply because they can. The advent of computers and temp tracks has changed the paradigm from hiring a composer you like, pointing him in the direction you want, and then letting him do his thing to hire the composer you want, and then dictate exactly what you want so that he is essentially only building a house that you have designed.

And since many of these guys have a stronger background in finance than they actually do in any kind of artistic creating we get what we now get.: artistic regress.


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## germancomponist (Jul 30, 2011)

Not worth it.


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## Frederick Russ (Jul 30, 2011)

Guys, it is inappropriate to take private conversations and post them publicly. If there is a private dispute here, please keep it private and settle it elsewhere.


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## germancomponist (Jul 30, 2011)

Frederick Russ @ Sun Jul 31 said:


> Guys, it is inappropriate to take private conversations and post them publicly. If there is a private dispute here, please keep it private and settle it elsewhere.




+1


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## Mike Connelly (Aug 1, 2011)

I don't know if it's so much snobbery about trailer music, or if it's just that much of it does sound the same. Ostinatos, the heavy drums, often not much melody or harmony.

Styles change over the decades but I'd compare it more to fad/fashion than something Darwinian. Right now the trend is things that are simpler, but there have been cycles in the past where more traditional orchestral styles have gone out of fashion only to come back later. It's inevitable, when most music is headed in one direction, after a while people get tired of it and the "older" stuff sounds fresh once again.

And the arts have always been a balancing act between art and commerce. It's shades of grey, the amount of creative freedom and specific direction varies case by case, and it's still possible to create great art when it's a hired job with requests from the client.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 1, 2011)

Mike Connelly @ Mon Aug 01 said:


> And the arts have always been a balancing act between art and commerce. It's shades of grey, the amount of creative freedom and specific direction varies case by case, and it's still possible to create great art when it's a hired job with requests from the client.



Requests from the client, even direction from the client, is one thing. The kind of micro-managing that routinely takes place with many now, simply because the technology has made it easy and inexpensive to do so, is simply anti-creative.


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## lux (Aug 1, 2011)

what do you mean for micro-managing?


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## Mike Connelly (Aug 1, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Aug 01 said:


> Requests from the client, even direction from the client, is one thing. The kind of micro-managing that routinely takes place with many now, simply because the technology has made it easy and inexpensive to do so, is simply anti-creative.



Absolutely, it depends on the amount of direction/control. I just don't agree with the oversimplification that any paid work with any direction is "craft" while only music done unpaid and with no outside input is "art".


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 1, 2011)

lux @ Mon Aug 01 said:


> what do you mean for micro-managing?



The producer or director comes to the studio and listens to the cue. He says, "I like it, but I don't like the clarinet there, can you change it to trumpet?"

So you do it. 30 seconds later, "Can we have less of the trombones there?" So you do it.

You spend time on almost every cue tweaking it to his/her satisfaction and there are over 30 cues so you spend somewhere between 4-8 hours of valuable writing time doing this. He pronounces himself pleased with the results.

You finish them and send them off and then you get an email saying "1m4, 2m6, and 3m3 are not really working for me. I think we need to get together again."

THAT is micro-managing.


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## germancomponist (Aug 1, 2011)

Exactly!


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## lux (Aug 1, 2011)

understood. Thats changes everything, i agree.

My suspect is that a good portion of actual composers could like this aspect. Expecially those who have more of a "technical" or "sound-shaping" approach. I think i'm preceding what Alex will say in a matter of minutes. 

Again, its not whos wrong or right. There are different types of film composers on the market today. My perception is that their different approaches are hard to match (expecially on a low budgeted level). They collide. 

No matter how many pages one writes about the advantages of one approach compared to the other. I will personally feel like a little violence when someone talks about composing, harmony, melody as legacy or vintage aspects. No matter how many examples about your own paychecks you show me. Simply because most of the music I loved and grown with gets cancelled, erased by such a statement.

Thats also why sometimes trailers writing gives issues to a few composers just because its a very "technical" activity. All the comments you'll read by trailer composers on this board and other boards are only pertaining the "sound" or the "behaviour" of a track. 

I think i rarely, not to say never, heard a trailer composer commenting something like "Wow, great chords" or "thats such a nice melody" or, again, "what a cool progression". Nothing. It has to do with the ending not "working", the middle not "working", the bottom end not being enough, the percussions not being the right ones, and in general comments about the sound (or sounds involved) in his formal quality.

Thats why i really think nothing can put together such different approaches. Its a fight without possible solution. And one will survive.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 1, 2011)

Mike Connelly @ Mon Aug 01 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Aug 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Requests from the client, even direction from the client, is one thing. The kind of micro-managing that routinely takes place with many now, simply because the technology has made it easy and inexpensive to do so, is simply anti-creative.
> ...



I assume you're responding to the broad strokes I painted in my statement. I said at the time it was very simplistic and there were shades of grey, but in general I stand by it. I have actually had clients hum or sing with a 'da' syllable melodies that they think would fit into sections, rather have than what I wrote. Once you accept a commission, unless you draw some very major guidelines of what you will or won't do, it is NOT YOUR PROJECT. Some people I've worked for have not changed a note. Others have changed 50% of the score before they were satisfied. The ability of one who hires you to have complete or at least a large amount of control over what you write makes it craft. To ME.


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