# Advice on writing for African live instruments - Update -



## IvanP (Aug 17, 2010)

Hello there, I might need some little help here 

I'm going to score a two hour documentary on RD Congo and the producing company know some African players that they want me to incorporate in the underscore. 

It's gonna be scored almost as a movie, since there's some dramatic recreation in it (hunting, chases, etc). Therefore, I am considering creating an underscore + thematic material. 

Point it is, how can I write to picture with African, live, instruments?

The two references I've been given are "The Constant Gardener" and "Blood Diamond". They want that raw, sound (live), with lyrical underscoring behind...(that being done with samples)

Ok, to be honest, I have no clue on how to do it...

I'm gonna contact soon the African ensemble...so far I know I got a Kora player, African percussion and voices.

So...

1) Is there any book or african music for dummies where I can learn how to play Kora, African polyrythm for begginners or any idiomatic instrumentation book?

2) How would you set up the composition itself, since it might go synced with picture, and thus with CLICK, but give at the same time enough freedom for the players to show their ethnic chops? 

My previous experience was with a Flamenco Guitarrist...I composed some basic flamenco riffs with samples and he made them better with the "real" flourishments. But I am Spanish and I knew where to start...

Here...do not have a clue, so...I wouldn't want to start with a rythmic pattern that could sound African / polyrythmic to me but gibberish to them, ending up in no way to follow my original performance.

3) During the live session, if there's any polyrtythm, how can I conduct properly? Stick to the Click and let the musicians do their thing? I can't conduct different meters with each hand....yet :mrgreen: 

Thanks a lot, everyone, 

Ivan


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## Rob (Aug 17, 2010)

*Re: Advice on writing for African live instruments*

I would let the musicians play freely, record everything they do and later, when they are gone  , assemble the music and sync to picture... just my 2 pence


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## Narval (Aug 17, 2010)

*Re: Advice on writing for African live instruments*

Hey Ivan, congrats for the gig, sounds like lot of fun!  I love African drumming, it's very complex and very underrated by many trained musicians.

Rob gives you very sound advice! Here, the same approach in a bit more detail - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2kA8T63k44 (after the boring intro, the fun begins at 2:00. also make sure you see part2)


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## David Story (Aug 17, 2010)

*Re: Advice on writing for African live instruments*

Free play is important. So is working from a sketch. A rhythmic and melodic idea you can show them. Keep it simple!
Plan your sessions well. Be sure you get improv and sketches at different tempi, and solo and group performances.
If there's a chase, tell them this is chase music. But that may not be the music that you use for a chase scene, just another way to build your "custom library".
Keep the takes to manageable size, a 2-hr jam may not help your cause.
Working this way takes a lot of editing, you'll need days to chop, loop, and mix the results of 1 session.

It's super fun if you have good players and use the time wisely.

Youtube the instruments: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMp_El9ltAs


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## IvanP (Aug 18, 2010)

*Re: Advice on writing for African live instruments*

Thank you, guys!

It seems a bit like a free fall, isnt it?

I see two ways of doing it from your advices:

1) let them play wathever they want, with basic indications ("chase scene, I want african drumming, some tension, with some changes") then edit it myself and (provided it's not too much out of temperament), add my elements with samples...my only fear is that the producers would think it's them who are composing that part of the music, not the guy who's been hired)

2) prepare some sketches, with click or not, do whathever I can with mockups and let them do it properly (less freedom for them). 

3) set up an impro plan: ex: 4 bars of basic patterns, BIG CHANGE, 2 bars! 8 bars, pp same pattern - voice enters, lament, 4 bars - tempo change: 7/8, 120 bpm, add low drumming and Kora rythm, etc. (Would that be too much confusing for them?)

What do you think would be the best approach?

And last, but not least question....can I ask them to play tempered? (in order to add samples behind)

Oh, last one, I promise....is there any decent stringed african melodic and rythmic instruments samples such as the Kora, out there? (I have the Kora in Ra, which is nice, but I want more...) Troels!! 

Thank you again, I appreciate it 

Ivan


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## Narval (Aug 18, 2010)

I would go for a combination of your 2 and 1. Worried that your producers might think they don't need you but only the musicians and the sound editor? First, what happens in your kitchen is your business and no one else's, never let them in is a good rule. Second, if their presence at the sessions can't be avoided, make sure you start with making your musicians play what you want, and let them loose towards the end. As David S well said, prepare our sessions well, do know exactly what you want from them, be in control, be not afraid to stop your musicians and ask them to change this or get rid of that tambourine etc. In short, be the chef of your kitchen. Best luck, and keep us posted!


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## Patrick de Caumette (Aug 18, 2010)

*Re: Advice on writing for African live instruments*

Hi Ivan,

you should have a pretty good idea of what you are after tempo-wise for your different sequences. 
Also deciding in advance whether you want 6/8, 4/4...etc may be a good thing, since the feel of those conveys different moods.

Writing a master plan of what you definitely need and have an idea for, and also what you are open to, in terms of improvised and "on the spot" performances that you could capture during the recording sessions.
Think of several formats, ie: solo djembe or talking drum, solo vocal ... what mood (rejoicing, lamenting...etc)

I would be cautious as far as what you can expect of them, with meter changes...etc
I would expect those musicians to excell (if you picked the right players) at what they know, but i would also think that they will not do well if asked to go away from their cultural heritage. Throwing in a bar of 7/8 in the middle of a groove may turn out to be a waste of time. Better record separately a 7/8 groove and try to edit the two together.

If your budget allows, I'd be happy to put you in touch with some world class friends (such as Brice Wassy, from Cameroon, drummer and musical director for Jean Luc Ponty a few years back)
Or I could help too, since I have performed and recorded with Richard Bona, Paco Ceri, Etienne M'Bappe, Armand Sabal-Lecot, Brice Wassy...etc
Just pm me if you'd like...


Sounds like a great gig, congrats!


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## IvanP (Aug 22, 2010)

*Re: Advice on writing for African live instruments*

Sorry guys for replying late, I got a late minute tight deadline to meet 

I am really thankful for your advices and enthusiasm, I'll let u know how it comes...unfortunately, budget allows maximum for two sessions (or maybe even only one...), so It will all depend on how good the musicians will be...I'm confident I'll try to take out the best of them, but it will be tricky...

Patrick, awesome references you have! I'll PM you later 

Do you think, when it comes to solo additions (lament voice, etc) it might be better to use dedicated musicians for these moments instead of using it in the same session (resulting in loss of precious time ) ? (additional budget allowed, of course?)

Thank you guys!


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## David Story (Aug 22, 2010)

*Re: Advice on writing for African live instruments*

Overdub later. The solo lines will help the beds you've recorded fit the film.

As narval said, you be the chef. Few care who plays what in the mix. 

Get an agreement from the players that allows the filmmakers to use the African players in the film.

Be joyful and clear in mind!


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## IvanP (Aug 25, 2010)

*Re: Advice on writing for African live instruments*

Good points, David, thank you!


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## IvanP (Sep 11, 2010)

*Re: Advice on writing for African live instruments*

Hello!

Just to let you know that it's been a tremendous experience 

Thank you all for your help and advice, now I got a week only to complete the gig...yikes!

Anyway, here's a rought mix and editing of the opening music, let me know what you think 

http://www.vimeo.com/14860402 

best, 

Iván


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## Patrick de Caumette (Sep 11, 2010)

*Re: Advice on writing for African live instruments*

Keeping in mind that this is a rough mix, you captured a nice feel. (a few elements could use a bit of depth/verb) 

But I am with Rob here, and the first 50 seconds are very sloppy rhythm-wise.
Most African time feels are on the beat, not behind or before.
These first 50 seconds are much too loose.

I realize that most of your tracks are recorded live, but setting up a steady grid and re-aligning your parts would be very beneficial to the overall feel.
It sounds like you are pressed for time, but re-doing the intro may have been the easier solution, with your musicians playing to a click, or to a MIDI basic groove.
If the intro is MIDI based, then set your quantize to 16th notes and straighten the whole thing...

Things are much better once the percussionist comes in at 0:50

But the mood that you captured is very nice, and that's the most important thing.
Good luck with the continuation!


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## Narval (Sep 11, 2010)

*Re: Advice on writing for African live instruments*

It flies! Don't change it!  

Excellent job, imo it perfectly matches the beautiful shooting! I think you got everything right: the tempo, the mood, the instrumental density and build up. In short, I think it's just great as it is, slightly and rightly (and lightly) "loose." Making it clinically perfect will just ruin the feel imo. Right now it just flows with the film. VERY African sounding too. Congrats, man, you have an eye for films!

Have a great one!


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## Rob (Sep 11, 2010)

*Re: Advice on writing for African live instruments*



Narval @ 11th September 2010 said:


> It flies! Don't change it!
> 
> Excellent job, imo it perfectly matches the beautiful shooting! I think you got everything right: the tempo, the mood, the instrumental density and build up. In short, I think it's just great as it is, slightly and rightly (and lightly) "loose." Making it clinically perfect will just ruin the feel imo. Right now it just flows with the film. VERY African sounding too. Congrats, man, you have an eye for films!
> 
> Have a great one!



I'm certainly not advocating a clinically perfect groove, but a better one yes  ... as it is, that part sounds to me as randomly out of sync, like not only the guitar doesn't lock with the percussions, but the percussion set isn't playing in time with itself. You could adjust the other instruments to match the percussion, but it just seems easier to get the perc right.


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## IvanP (Sep 11, 2010)

*Re: Advice on writing for African live instruments*

Thank you, Narval, Rob, David and Patrick  There's a little of you in there, thanks again for your help and comments 

They funny thing is, that, given the low budget of the gig, guitar, flute, eeeh initial voice (trying to make it sound a bit...African, since I couldn't convince Ayub Ogada to sing or find a similar voice and pay almost nothing, I just did it myself...) and additional perc are me... so if it's out of tempo it is my fault indeed, since they were playing to click on this track. 

Good points, I am on the tightest deadline of my life indeed, but, if not for the gig, I'll correct it for promotional purposes for sure...so any further indications or comments are most welcome 

Anyway, it's true that when I gave them just a few indications of the groove, without any click or other event, they were incredibly tight on tempo...I actually checked a couple of grooves in order to check the tempo and it was like 164 bpm without variations...these guys are living machines!

I also discovered the Kora...what a unique sounding instrument...and, oddly, its music is very similar in modal elaboration to flamenco music! That was truly a surprise.

Thks again, 

Ivan


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## David Story (Sep 11, 2010)

*Re: Advice on writing for African live instruments*

Good work Ivan! you're bringing a cinematic African vibe. Really helps the film. 
Are you doing all the vocals? Voice leads the score and the film.
Sounds like you got a lot out of those sessions!

You could copy the tighter groove to the beginning, it has more energy.
I think you'll get even better as you do more scenes.

Flamenco and Kora, could be the Moorish connection? West to North to Iberia...


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## IvanP (Sep 11, 2010)

*Re: Advice on writing for African live instruments*

Thks, David! 

The point is giving a cinematic feel, indeed! That's what I liked about the project...usually documentaries are more library oriented and I was given much more freedom this time  

Regarding the Kora and Flamenco, I do think the moorish connection is the path in between, indeed...I just never imagined it digged that far...it's even tuned on the same Andalousian E-A prhygian chord! 

It's no coincidence that Flamenco player Enrique Morente assembled a flamenco-african ensemble and did duets with a Kora...I just learned that from the session 

I'm also wondering if I could use the Kora takes and use them in a Magreb based film and nobody would tell me it wouldn't be idiomatic 

Is also normal that African musicians have more difficulties in syncing to 4/4 clicks than 7/8 grooves? I had the feeling it did!

Ok, back to work now


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## IvanP (Sep 22, 2010)

*Re: Advice on writing for African live instruments*

I assembled a suite, if you want to listen to....

I also fixed the opening ryhtm (you'll hear it at the end of the suite), hopefully it's better now 


http://soundcloud.com/ivanp-1/garamba-suite 

Let me know what you think 

Best, 

Ivan


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## David Story (Apr 7, 2011)

Wonderful, fantastic music. It's several steps forward from the test mix. How'd you geò D   äÆi D   äÆŠ D   äÍI D   äÍÿ D   äÑV D   äÑ³ D   äÑÜ D   äÑï D   äÒÇ D   äÒê D   äÓß D


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## germancomponist (Apr 7, 2011)

Sounds very fantastic, Ivan!



> It's been such a difference using live musicians that I cannot go back anymore



+1

I, but sure this is only my onpinion, I would add more singers for the chords to make it much bigger to get that typical african feeling what you hear so often in the gospel songs... .

But again, you did a very good Job! o-[][]-o 

Best,

Gunther


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## IvanP (Apr 7, 2011)

David Story @ Thu Apr 07 said:


> Wonderful, fantastic music. It's several steps forward from the test mix. How'd you get it to sound so perfect? Clean, tight, balanced.
> Everyone must be happy with this score. Congratulations.



Thank you, David, I appreciate you remember the other mix :oops: 

Honestly, it was all trial and error until one day I heard it a bit " as something newer and refreshing" and "more uplifting" than the other trial mixes...since I'm not a pro mixer, I just did what I could...
Compressor here, reverb there, etc...nothing too fancy :mrgreen: 

And I guess also a bit of love for this project, probably o 

Thks again, 

Ivan


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## IvanP (Apr 7, 2011)

germancomponist @ Thu Apr 07 said:


> I, but sure this is only my onpinion, I would add more singers for the chords to make it much bigger to get that typical african feeling what you hear so often in the gospel songs... .
> 
> But again, you did a very good Job! o-[][]-o
> 
> ...



Thks a lot, Gunther!

I agree on the chords...if I only knew how to arrange them with those specific voicings hehe... 8) 

Still, I did try a thicker harmony, but I felt it made it heavier and I was looking for a silky, airy vibe to it. 

It'd probably helped to have more dedicated singers to get that gospel sound, but I only had one and myself!

Thks a lot for listening  

Ivan


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## germancomponist (Apr 7, 2011)

IvanP @ Thu Apr 07 said:


> I agree on the chords...if I only knew how to arrange them with those specific voicings hehe... 8)



Ivan, 
some years ago I had to write a short snippet in this style for a radio spot. I experimented with the piano and ended up with 7 voices for a chord. When the singer was in my studio and sang the parts she said: "Hm, I think there is something wrong in your arrangement", and I said: "Maybe, but please sing it as you can hear it played by the piano". After I had mixed the 7 tracks she was so very much impressed..... . :D


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## IvanP (Apr 7, 2011)

LOL Gunther, good point


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## TheUnfinished (Apr 7, 2011)

Thanks for posting your work Ivan. I don't want to play favourites but the passage between the 8 and 10 minutes mark is just sublime. Really excellent scoring.

A genuinely imaginative blend of traditional orchestration and West African influences.

Matt


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## TheUnfinished (Apr 8, 2011)

You're welcome Ivan. I've started following you on Soundcloud, so keep it up - no pressure!

Matt


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