# Microphone advice



## JT (Jun 1, 2017)

I'm looking to upgrade my mics. I'm looking for stereo mics to record my wife's harp. I'm currently using a stereo pair of Rode NT5's. They work fine, but I'm wondering what improvements I could expect if I upgraded to Neumann's or AKG or something else.

Also, any recommendations for pre-amps would be helpful also.

Thanks,

JT


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## burp182 (Jun 1, 2017)

If I may ask, what preamp and interface are you currently using with the Rodes?
(It's good to know the whole chain before recommending changes.)
And also, what do you feel is lacking in your current setup?


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## JT (Jun 1, 2017)

I'm using a Steinberg interface with it's built in pre-amp. I'm looking for a little more warmth from a mic.


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## synthpunk (Jun 1, 2017)

Harp is a tough one to mic because it can be so quiet. But you are on the right path using a stereo configuration.

For warm musical microphone preamps I would recommend you look at GAP 73, Warm Audio (JRR shop has the WA-12 on blowout currently), CAPI, Rupert Neve Designs 511, Seventh Circle Audio N72, and Hairball Audio Lola.


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## burp182 (Jun 1, 2017)

The Rodes are a little peaky, so that might be contributing to the perceived lack of warmth.
Before diving into the search for new mics, I'd suggest trying two things first. 
Take a look at the frequency response curve of the mics. I can't remember if Rode supplies a curve of each mic or just a genetic one. But look for small anomalies in the 1-4K range. Then, with a good parametric eq (hardware or software will both be fine), GENTLY apply correction in that range and see if that's enough to solve the issue. OR:
Move the mics. Position on a large instrument like a harp is crucial, as a mic close to the surface of the harp only hears the tiny section right in front of it. So small movements can make major differences in what you get. Or consider using the two mics as an X/Y pair. This makes finding the right spot a little easier. Simply walk around the harp as it's being played and, when it sounds right to you, put the mic pair there. A little distance from a large acoustic instrument can be a great help.
If none of this works, then it might be time to look at a change in mics. But try these first and let me know what you find. And, hey, it's free!


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## PeterBaumann (Jun 2, 2017)

I was recently recording a harp in a studio and used a few mics placed near, mid and far from the instrument. I ended up using most of the mics to some extent, but got really great results from an ORTF setup of Neumann KM184s about 4-5ft from the instrument


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## Scoremixer (Jun 2, 2017)

FWIW to upgrade from what you have now will be a serious step up in price.

Schoeps mics are very detailed and hi-fi but have a flattering top end that suits bright acoustic sources. Look into the CMC6 body with an MK22 cardioid capsule. 

Harp is one of those harmonically complex sources that really shows up deficiencies in mics and rooms, so I'd expect to see a decent improvement over what you have already.


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## gsilbers (Jun 2, 2017)

JT said:


> I'm looking to upgrade my mics. I'm looking for stereo mics to record my wife's harp. I'm currently using a stereo pair of 's. They work fine, but I'm wondering what improvements I could expect if I upgraded to Neumann's or AKG or something else.
> 
> Also, any recommendations for pre-amps would be helpful also.
> 
> ...




Meh, you might be good on the mic side.

(just close your eyes and use your ears.)


but try one of the micpres synthpunk recommended and a good room. that will def help.
I have the GAP but those warm audio seem cool as well


its not rocket science, so those clones will be as good as the pricey gear within a mix context.
yet... a statement like this would probably get me kicked out of gearslutz


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## JT (Jun 2, 2017)

I've been using my Rode's in an XY configuration placed about a foot from the strings, about level with my wife's chin. She uses a lot of dynamics. When I place the mic a little further away I lose the soft delicate magic that she creates. So I moved them to the 12" distance, it picks up the soft passages really great, but when she digs in, everything sounds harsher. Our ears are simply amazing that capture all of the nuances of sound, without coloring them. I'd like to find a mic that hears like our ears do. 

If I can find a good solution, I'm willing to spend more for quality. But it's hard to know what the magic configuration is with using it for a few hours.


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## Jake (Jun 2, 2017)

Here's a link to Michael Joly Engineering. He makes an upgrade capsule for the NT5 that gets very good reviews.

http://www.oktavamod.com

I don't have them, I've just read about them (I too own a matched pair of NT55's).


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## burp182 (Jun 2, 2017)

So you're micing on the strings primarily? I've found on many harps that outside the resonant cavities in the body of the instrument provided additional great spots to mic it. Even though I'm loath to suggest this normally, perhaps this is an instance where a multiple mic setup might prove useful. Careful placement to avoid phase issues will be required, making this even trickier. But it might provide you with the ability to gently mix between the perspectives to suit the moment to moment dynamics of the piece. You didn't mention how many channels were available on your interface, so this might prove to be a roadblock.
A general rule of thumb is that the closer the placement of the mic, the more the inherent nonlinearities show up. So even wonderfully neutral mics like Schoeps and DPA won't deliver ruler flat response. This may well be an instance where the more linear response and lessened proximity effect of an omni mic may well prove to be your best friend. I might suggest Earthworks as a possibility along with the aforementioned Schoeps and DPA.
Are you located somewhere where renting few good mic candidates might be a possibility? A small investment might save you a lot by preventing a choice with minimal benefits relative to what you have now. And it'll be educational at the very least.


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## Scoremixer (Jun 2, 2017)

JT said:


> I've been using my Rode's in an XY configuration placed about a foot from the strings, about level with my wife's chin. She uses a lot of dynamics. When I place the mic a little further away I lose the soft delicate magic that she creates. So I moved them to the 12" distance, it picks up the soft passages really great, but when she digs in, everything sounds harsher. Our ears are simply amazing that capture all of the nuances of sound, without coloring them. I'd like to find a mic that hears like our ears do.
> 
> If I can find a good solution, I'm willing to spend more for quality. But it's hard to know what the magic configuration is with using it for a few hours.



12" inches is very close on an instrument like a harp, as you're discovering! The sound you're after might not be achievable with one single mic position. 

I'd keep hold of your Rode's and augment them with another mic, maybe something like a Royer ribbon.
Use the Royer as a close spot to capture the body of the sound, then place the Rode's a meter or so back in a spaced AB config to capture more of the overall tone, and blend to taste. That would go some way to capturing the best of both worlds.


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## wst3 (Jun 2, 2017)

I'm still struggling with the best way to do a microphone shoot-out, every method has flaws!

I can hear subtle differences in the guitar video, I'd expect the differences to be a little more pronounced, but as with any shoot-out, one's mileage will vary. In that video I think the KM-184 sounds a little to bright, or perhaps just a little too harsh in the upper octaves, and same is true of the NT5, but not nearly as much so.

From personal experience I find the KM-184 to be significantly more harsh than either the KM-84 or the NT5. Of the three the KM-84 is my favorite, but owning one is a bit tricky<G>.

And since everyone wants the "why" there are a couple things I really like about the KM-84 over just about any other small capsule condenser cardiod microphone:
1) it is one of the most forgiving microphones I've ever used, the fall off as you move off axis is smooth, predictable, and not in the least bit jarring, which makes placing it almost idiot proof. No, you might not get the absolute best result if you just stick it on a stand, but you will get a really good one. The only other microphones I've used that are nearly as forgiving are the AT-4031 and the Schoeps CMC6 with their cardiod or hyper cardiod capsules (and how anyone builds a hyper cardiod capsule with such a smooth off-axis response remains a mystery to me!)
2) there is a gentle bump in the upper mid-range that is impossible to reproduce with any equalizer I own. It adds some life or breath or something to acoustic guitars that I just really like.
3) I am more familiar with the KM-84 than either of the other two. With that I have to point out that I may simply not be using the KM-184 or the NT5 correctly, always a possibility, and one of the benefits of familiarity<G>!

Other microphones that I like and use a lot include the Audio Technica AT-4031, the AKG C-461, the Earthworks SR-77, and the Mojave Audio MA-101 which I recently acquired - right before they discontinued it (bummer!) None of them are equal - at least in my imagination - the KM-84, and I really need to stop being cheap and just pony up!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 2, 2017)

Oktava MK019 is a poor man's KM-84, but that's an interesting comment about off-axis fall-off. I've never paid attention to that, probably because my recording experience is 99% one element at a time (so bleed from other instruments in the room isn't a factor).

About mic comparisons: I didn't listen to those videos yet, but one thing is that most of them put the mic in the same position. In my opinion a better approach would be to place each one where it sounds best, because that's what you're going to do!


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## wst3 (Jun 2, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> About mic comparisons: I didn't listen to those videos yet, but one thing most of them put the mic in the same position. In my opinion a better approach would be to place each one where it sounds best, because that's what you're going to do!


I'm wrestling with that very issue now... how do you do a "fair" comparison between microphones?

Your approach will demonstrate what the microphone can do, in that particular setting (instrument, room, placement), but it is no longer an apples to apples comparison - which maybe is not the right thing to start with?

The last time I tried this I set the microphone stand in one spot, didn't even try to see if it was best for any particular microphone. Then placed each microphone in the holder and recorded (roughly) the same tune. I made a feeble attempt at level matching as well.

The recordings were quite a bit different<G>!

Next time around I think I'll start with the optimal placement for each microphone and see how that turns out

Regarding the "poor man's KM-84" - none of the MK-19s I've used sounded anything like the KM-84s I've used. They sound good, in some cases great, but they do not sound like a KM-84, I wonder why that legend persists. Did I just run into a string of bad MK-19s? Did I mistakenly get to use stellar KM-84s? Are my tastes and hearing that different than everyone else?

I have listened to Michael Joly's demos for his replacement capsules and his own microphone design. They sound great, but I would say they have a character similar to a KM-84, but not exactly the same.

I don't know, I'll keep saving my pennies I suppose...


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## stonzthro (Jun 2, 2017)

I'm not a fan of NT5s, but mic placement has so much to do with getting it to sound right. Experiment with what you have first - if it just isn't working, rent or borrow before you buy if at all possible. 

And let's just be honest for a second, how many people will listen to the final track and say "Sheesh - this music would have been so much better if it was tracked with (fill in the blank) through a (fill in the blank)"? Very, very few. Do great mics (in capable hands) make tracking and mixing easier? Yeah. Are they essential - nope.


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## chimuelo (Jun 2, 2017)

You can go overboard on the magic of mic Pres.
I've rented several from a collector over the years and if I were rich I'd buy a Grace Flamingo.

But I'm mostly Vocals these days and really like the the FMR-RNP's.
They make a really natural sounding pre amp that maintains a mics character really well.
I'm using Shure KSM8s and they sound fantastic.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 2, 2017)

Bill:



> Did I just run into a string of bad MK-19s?



There are two: Chinese and Russian. That might be the difference.

Or maybe it is a legend. I never stuck the to side-by-side, just went from memory - which could well be distorted by the legend.

But the KM184 is a very different mic.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 2, 2017)

About apples/apples mic comparisons, I think the answer is a compromise. If you put one mic inside a piano and the other one back 10', well, that's apples and pajamas. But you can move the mics a little within a given position - 9' and 10', etc.

Or do two tests: the same positions, and where they sound best.


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## wst3 (Jun 4, 2017)

Hi Nick,

I have pretty much settled on the two-pronged approach, pass 1 has all the microphones in the same position with respect to the source, pass 2 will be the optimal position as judged by me<G>.

It'll take some time, but I imagine I will learn quite a bit in the process!

Thanks for confirming.


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## wst3 (Jun 4, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Bill:
> There are two: Chinese and Russian. That might be the difference.



It very likely plays a role, how much, I don't know.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> Or maybe it is a legend. I never stuck the to side-by-side, just went from memory - which could well be distorted by the legend.


That's always an obstacle... our audio memory is really quite short, so when I think back to using <fill in the blank> it is always a crapshoot!



Nick Batzdorf said:


> But the KM184 is a very different mic.


Yes it is, pretty remarkably different. Makes one wonder why they chose that model number.


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## wst3 (Jun 4, 2017)

stonzthro said:


> I'm not a fan of NT5s, but mic placement has so much to do with getting it to sound right. Experiment with what you have first - if it just isn't working, rent or borrow before you buy if at all possible.



Excellent advice! Sadly it is much more difficult today to borrow, or even rent, gear. I suppose the trade-off, lower prices, has a place?



stonzthro said:


> And let's just be honest for a second, how many people will listen to the final track and say "Sheesh - this music would have been so much better if it was tracked with (fill in the blank) through a (fill in the blank)"? Very, very few. Do great mics (in capable hands) make tracking and mixing easier? Yeah. Are they essential - nope.



Even better advice!

So I admit, I select microphones largely based on past experience, it shortens the whole process. There are times where I'll spend a lot of time experimenting with different microphones and different placements, and that's fun, but it doesn't get the music recorded! So if push comes to shove I will reach for something that makes my job easier. A KM-84 is definitely in that league, and for me probably at the top of the list. But there are so many others:

Audio Technica AT-4031 - my favorite form that range, very predictable, just not quite the same "oomph" of the KM-84

AKG C-451 - sometimes it works so well I wonder why I still want the KM-84. But somehow I still do.

Earthworks SR-77 - frighteningly accurate, too much so a lot of the time. When it fits it is pretty darned cool though.

Shure SM-81 - I have never made a good recording (read a recording I like) with these, and yet many of my friends make magic with them all the time. Clearly I never really learned the secrets, but I was able to sell my pair for what I paid for them, so no foul.

Rode NT5 - I borrowed a pair once, and I did like them, but they weren't better/different enough to justify the purchase.

Teac PE-120 - a one trick pony, but it does that trick well. I modified mine to operate from phantom power and it gets a lot more use than when I had to change batteries.


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