# The approach to learning music theory and orchestration



## Markrs (Dec 24, 2020)

The topic has come up a few times and I thought it would be good to have a thread to discuss it.

What is the best way to learn music theory and orchestration? Are there certain qualifications for who are best to teach it?

I have many theory books, but I find I struggle to concentrate on them and take in what I am reading. With video courses I find this easier and the absorption better as someone is demonstrating what is being taught. Also normally you can ask questions and have them answered.

I would appreciate other people's thoughts on this and there experience as this could be a very useful thread for people arriving into this area of study (I'm happy if it is a repost of comments made elsewhere as it would be nice to see them all in this thread)


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 24, 2020)

Scoreclub! But actually...

What I've found has worked is repetition of concepts. I did a number of Thinkspace courses back in the day, some of the material stuck. Then I came across that same material over time in other courses (like Evenant). And it stuck some more. That has happened for a variety of topics for me.

I had tried Scoreclub a couple of years ago and I didn't get much from it. But I also didn't have as much existing knowledge built up. Now, I'm going through the courses much faster and retaining much more information that is being conveyed - because it is reinforcing / adding upon concepts I already have come across.

That, coupled with score study, has been very helpful for me.


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## Rory (Dec 24, 2020)

Markrs said:


> What is the best way to learn music theory and orchestration?



I think that it depends on what level one is at. Beginner? Intermediate? Advanced?

When you say "this could be a very useful thread for people arriving into this area of study", does that mean that you're new to making music? Music theory? Or...? Do you play an instrument?


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## el-bo (Dec 24, 2020)

Were you making music before this current venture, or is this your first entry-point?


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## Nils Neumann (Dec 24, 2020)

I don’t think there this a best way. But would love to hear some stories about some experienced members and their ways to learn it! Please share


I went to a school where music was considered a main subject with twice as many lessons as normal in Germany. Which gave me a head start in theory early on. Now I’m currently in my third year of conservatories training.
The Conservatorium changed my view of theory so drastically and brought so much more depth into my craft, I can’t imagine a online course can do anything close to that.

What are you thoughts, which ways did you take?


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## cet34f (Dec 24, 2020)

I thought doing score reduction is considered the best way. Is it not the case?


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## Markrs (Dec 24, 2020)

Rory said:


> I think that it depends on what level one is at. Beginner? Intermediate? Advanced?
> 
> When you say "this could be a very useful thread for people arriving into this area of study", does that mean that you're new to making music? Music theory? Or...? Do you play an instrument?





el-bo said:


> Were you making music before this current venture, or is this your first entry-point?


Technically I have owned a guitar for 26 years, I saw technically as I only ever okay a few basic chords on it. In truth I am new to music and instruments in general.

A couple of years ago I bought a digital piano, but struggle with just repetition as a way of learning it. I then discovered computer based composition and this site.

Regarding my current learning, I have been through some music theory courses already, some had stuck some had not. I am currently on part 7 of Jason Allen's music theory courses on skill share (he is up to part 18, with each part being about 3 hours long of tutorials on average). It was one of the most comprehensive video courses on music theory I could find.

I have also gone through a couple of Thinkspace Education courses, which were good, but lacked depth and context to help things glue together. I also have "the art of composing course" to go through.

I am also studying synthesisers with Syntorial and some specific synthesiser courses, for got Omnisphere so I can fully utilize what I have.

I also have other courses that are about creating music in a DAW and other aspects like that.


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## Markrs (Dec 24, 2020)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Scoreclub! But actually...
> 
> What I've found has worked is repetition of concepts. I did a number of Thinkspace courses back in the day, some of the material stuck. Then I came across that same material over time in other courses (like Evenant). And it stuck some more. That has happened for a variety of topics for me.
> 
> ...


This is similar to my approach with each course more sticks. I think the secret to this is less repetition but reinforcement through relearning things from a different perspective with each course.

I also intend to get to a place where courses like Scoreclub become more viable as I have more knowledge to pin to what they are teaching.


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## el-bo (Dec 25, 2020)

Markrs said:


> Technically I have owned a guitar for 26 years, I saw technically as I only ever okay a few basic chords on it. In truth I am new to music and instruments in general.
> 
> A couple of years ago I bought a digital piano, but struggle with just repetition as a way of learning it. I then discovered computer based composition and this site.
> 
> ...



Ok, cool. You're probably well-primed for learning, without having to try and re-learn years of bad habits and possible theory-aversion 

One thing that was a revelation for me, as someone who's busked and bluffed my way into music-making, was watching videos demonstrating how a full, seemingly-complex orchestration could be extrapolated from the simplest of piano chord progressions. Previously, I'd wondered how it would be possible to start part-writing, from scratch. Now I see that every tine I place five or six fingers down on a keyboard I'm essentially writing for five or six players/instruments and/or sections. With an ear fo voice-leading and a handful of chord progressions, suddenly it doesn't seem quite so overwhelming 

I still wish to try and get some theory under my belt, though. Interesting that you are making progress with Jason's courses. I bought the first six units because, like you, I thought they were the most comprehensive. However, every time I tried to start they just seemed so dry and heavy. Definitely encouraging to hear that it is not impossible.


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## mikrokosmiko (Dec 25, 2020)

I would say that learning how to play an instrument (preferably a polyphonic one) is a must


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## ed buller (Dec 25, 2020)

The way that works for most people at the start is reversing engineering what you like. That will obviously be more of a challenge if you happen to like the "Ring Cycle" rather than "Oops I did it again !". Yet it really applies to both. Max Martin and Wagner have their tricks..and apply them consistently.

It's really like your favourite takeout. It drives you crazy that the green curry you get from that tiny thai place is always amazing and the stuff you try to cook at home is NEVER as good. Yet reason tells you that it's NOT magic. The chefs in the restaurant are just doing something you are not.

It's the same really with music. From theory to Orchestration it's all just cooking.

Now theory can be a black hole. Most music theory really stops in the middle 19th Century . Just when it was getting fun. Of all the current textbooks used in schools and Colleges only a couple really get into music post wagner. And then it's a chapter or two if you are lucky. The reason being is that it's so much more complicated and in many instances will be at odds with all that preceded it !

You will go from NO PARALLEL FIFTHS to Debussy and Ravel...that use them all the time. Basically it is because the music written in the 16-18th centuries was for a very different audience and was really much more predictable and understable. Indeed prior to that it was all written for the church and they were very fussy clients indeed.

So my advice would be pick something you absolutely love. And try and deconstruct it . First learn to play it. By memory. Then look for patterns. Do this whilst learning the basics on line or via a book or course. Bear in mind it's really a 3 year journey to nail the basics. if you look in the textbooks you will see a list of the chapters and what they cover. Is it all essential ?.....that depends. A lot of skill went into both "the Ring" and "opps".......the music you want to study will be the key .

but it's a lot easier now with the internet. I'd recommend Scoreclub......Alain is a fabulous teacher.

best

e


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## Rory (Dec 25, 2020)

@ed buller, who wrote the post above, was one of the people who made significant contributions to a discussion last July about current books on music theory. The thread runs five pages, but there's a lot of good information in it, in many cases from people like Ed who know what they're talking about. Also, luckily it didn't descend into a pro/anti theory debate: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/modern-books-on-music-theory.95796/


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## Markrs (Dec 25, 2020)

ed buller said:


> The way that works for most people at the start is reversing engineering what you like. That will obviously be more of a challenge if you happen to like the "Ring Cycle" rather than "Oops I did it again !". Yet it really applies to both. Max Martin and Wagner have their tricks..and apply them consistently.
> 
> It's really like your favourite takeout. It drives you crazy that the green curry you get from that tiny thai place is always amazing and the stuff you try to cook at home is NEVER as good. Yet reason tells you that it's NOT magic. The chefs in the restaurant are just doing something you are not.
> 
> ...


This is great advice, I plan to do this. Getting some theory under the belt was aimed at being able to do just this. I plan on getting a few simple stuff first, there is excellent free score resources around and then hopefully progress to full scores.

Once I get beyond the music theory classes the plan is to then subscribe to scoreclub where I can then utilise that knowledge better. At the moment not everything I am learning has sunk in, so I use books to help support the knowledge as it will often reapeat what I have learned but in a different way.

As to parallel fifths, I have just finish going through the species counterpoint, which was really boring!


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## Markrs (Dec 25, 2020)

Rory said:


> @ed buller, who wrote the post above, was one of the people who made significant contributions to a discussion last July about current books on music theory. The thread runs five pages, but there's a lot of good information in it, in many cases from people like Ed who know what they're talking about. Also, luckily it didn't descend into a pro/anti theory debate: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/modern-books-on-music-theory.95796/


Thanks Rory, I think I might have seen that thread, but will have a look at it and see if there some that look suitable for where I am in my progression.


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## Markrs (Dec 25, 2020)

el-bo said:


> Ok, cool. You're probably well-primed for learning, without having to try and re-learn years of bad habits and possible theory-aversion
> 
> One thing that was a revelation for me, as someone who's busked and bluffed my way into music-making, was watching videos demonstrating how a full, seemingly-complex orchestration could be extrapolated from the simplest of piano chord progressions. Previously, I'd wondered how it would be possible to start part-writing, from scratch. Now I see that every tine I place five or six fingers down on a keyboard I'm essentially writing for five or six players/instruments and/or sections. With an ear fo voice-leading and a handful of chord progressions, suddenly it doesn't seem quite so overwhelming
> 
> I still wish to try and get some theory under my belt, though. Interesting that you are making progress with Jason's courses. I bought the first six units because, like you, I thought they were the most comprehensive. However, every time I tried to start they just seemed so dry and heavy. Definitely encouraging to hear that it is not impossible.


Jason covers a lot and actually goes pretty slowly but they are a bit dry and I don't do the exercises, as there is some good evidence that learning by rote is not the best especially things like first species counterpoint (The videos are done pretty quick as I hear his phone buzz regularly which is a bit odd, kind of wanted to tell him to turn his phone off). Reputedly the best approach is to then try and puzzle out a score and then refer back, this problem solving and refering back better cements knowledge.

I have slowed up as I did the counterpoint in 6 and now in 7, partly as it has got more difficult but also counterpoint is quite dry and dull as there are lots of rules and to be honest even the person who wrote them all those years ago broke quite a few of them in the book about the rules!

I intend to continue, I have skill share which cost be about £50 for a year with a 40% voucher so I can do all the lessons without additional cost, though I will probably subscribe again next year (you can stop the subscription straight away and still have access for the rest of the year but it doesn't auto renew, so you can use a voucher code again).

Also thank you for understanding my post, it was written early in the morning on a phone using swype texting and it doesn't totally make sense!


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## el-bo (Dec 25, 2020)

Markrs said:


> Jason covers a lot and actually goes pretty slowly but they are a bit dry and I don't do the exercises, as there is some good evidence that learning by rote is not the best especially things like first species counterpoint (The videos are done pretty quick as I hear his phone buzz regularly which is a bit odd, kind of wanted to tell him to turn his phone off). Reputedly the best approach is to then try and puzzle out a score and then refer back, this problem solving and refering back better cements knowledge.
> 
> I have slowed up as I did the counterpoint in 6 and now in 7, partly as it has got more difficult but also counterpoint is quite dry and dull as there are lots of rules and to be honest even the person who wrote them all those years ago broke quite a few of them in the book about the rules!
> 
> ...


Thanks!

Will definitely give Jason's course another shot. I really don't mind slow, but I don't think slow should necessarily equate to dry, though. As for rules? Bring 'em on. I've fallen foul of cutting corners on many occasions; most notably, with language-learning (For which I'm now paying the price). I think some form of composition will always be happening in the background. However, after having dodged music-theory for so long, I'm happy to step back and take whatever rules it wants to throw at me 

And what is it with you and getting the best deals in town? A year of Skillshare for 50 quid? Sounds like fun, to me.

Will be good to hear your music, as you progress


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## Markrs (Dec 25, 2020)

I


el-bo said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Will definitely give Jason's course another shot. I really don't mind slow, but I don't think slow should necessarily equate to dry, though. As for rules? Bring 'em on. I've fallen foul of cutting corners on many occasions; most notably, with language-learning (For which I'm now paying the price). I think some form of composition will always be happening in the background. However, after having dodged music-theory for so long, I'm happy to step back and take whatever rules it wants to throw at me
> 
> ...


I am good at finding deals :D The skillshare voucher pops up quite regularly (I think the last one was BF), if i see it again i will post it as a deal. It is worth exploring as it has Jason's 7 hour synthesis course, complete mixing masterclass and 2 courses on film composion.

Jack Vaughan has some good classes on there, but I felt they worked better for those that alrady had written songs, as I struggled with getting going with the exercises (I jsut didn't know the basics of even using a DAW which held me back). Jack leans more towards Jazz and his advanced class goes even more in that direction. Personally I really like Jack's presentation style and I would recommend his classes. I shoud add that his style is more doing related than theory, which is also a good thing. They are also on Udemy.


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## el-bo (Dec 25, 2020)

Markrs said:


> I
> 
> I am good at finding deals :D The skillshare voucher pops up quite regularly (I think the last one was BF), if i see it again i will post it as a deal. It is worth exploring as it has Jason's 7 hour synthesis course, complete mixing masterclass and 2 courses on film composion.
> 
> Jack Vaughan has some good classes on there, but I felt they worked better for those that alrady had written songs, as I struggled with getting going with the exercises (I jsut didn't know the basics of even using a DAW which held me back). Jack leans more towards Jazz and his advanced class goes even more in that direction. Personally I really like Jack's presentation style and I would recommend his classes. They are also on Udemy.



Thanks! But on second-thought, a Skillshare sub might not be the best thing at the moment. I already have more than enough of Jason's content that I've bought through Udemy. i don't need any more options, ready to distract or overwhelm me. Besides, there's a wealth of freely available tutorials that might help to supplement and consolidate any ideas that I feel I'm getting stuck on.

We'll see.

Have fun on your journey.


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## Markrs (Dec 25, 2020)

el-bo said:


> Thanks! But on second-thought, a Skillshare sub might not be the best thing at the moment. I already have more than enough of Jason's content that I've bought through Udemy. i don't need any more options, ready to distract or overwhelm me. Besides, there's a wealth of freely available tutorials that might help to supplement and consolidate any ideas that I feel I'm getting stuck on.
> 
> We'll see.
> 
> Have fun on your journey.


That is the risk, I have too many courses and Skillshare has a crazy amount on offer. So staying focus is no bad thing


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## nolotrippen (Dec 25, 2020)

Markrs said:


> The topic has come up a few times and I thought it would be good to have a thread to discuss it.
> 
> What is the best way to learn music theory and orchestration? Are there certain qualifications for who are best to teach it?
> 
> ...


I took a summer course at a city college. It taught scales, chords, rhythms, and the key and time signatures involved. This site might help you get started: https://www.musictheoryvideos.com/


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## Markrs (Dec 25, 2020)

nolotrippen said:


> I took a summer course at a city college. It taught scales, chords, rhythms, and the key and time signatures involved. This site might help you get started: https://www.musictheoryvideos.com/


Thank you, will take a look


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## JohnG (Dec 25, 2020)

hi @Markrs

Can you take a "live" course in orchestration at a decent music school or college near you? Many times, I felt I had learned very little until I heard the parts played back and got comments from the players.

You can learn a lot from working with samples, if live players are not available to you immediately. I think you can learn even more if you work with a soloist (if that's all you can get) even if that soloist is recorded with a relatively rudimentary setup. Plenty of nice music has been recorded with a dented SM57 in a bedroom with the mic cable under the door.

Alternatively you can use online musicians. Many players have a setup and can record tracks for you (some can overdub multiple times) so you can hear your music.

I think the key is that there is no "correct" way to do anything with music and that having fun and enjoying yourself are paramount. Otherwise, you make steadier money working at an office!

Books are fine but they can be so boring; at least find one that has a set of MP3s or online audio so you can hear the examples.

Here's a link to a track with live players. I mocked it up very carefully in the demo but I'm sure you can imagine how much less it is in samples: 

While this piece has a full complement of strings, even just one player can make an enormous difference.

Have fun!

John


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## Markrs (Dec 25, 2020)

JohnG said:


> hi @Markrs
> 
> Can you take a "live" course in orchestration at a decent music school or college near you? Many times, I felt I had learned very little until I heard the parts played back and got comments from the players.
> 
> ...



Thank you John for this, really good advice. Once the UK is a open again, I will look into music schools as an option or mentorship. The plan is to get a bit further along on the basics and see how far that takes me before I think about other options. 

I like the idea of working with soloists at somepoint and with services like fiverr that it more approachable and affordable than before. Though I would be keen to pay more for someone to feedback improvements rather than just play what I send. 

Trevor Morris actually gave that advice. He would ask for one version based on what he sent then 2 alternatives based on the person knowing their instrument better than he does. He often then uses there improvised version.


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## Rossy (Dec 25, 2020)

Its amazing that timing is everything and I myself are going through this same madness right now.I dont mean this to be long, but it's going to be. Some background about me, im 54, originally from Liverpool, GB, started drumming at about 11 years old, no lessons, just loved rush, queen, ELO (you get the picture) my mate across the road had a drum kit and I would go to his house nearly every night to learn to play (he got bored and would read spiderman comics while I tried to knock out songs) It lit a fire in me to this day, I dont know why but I loved it. Fast forward 6 years later and I joined my first band playing the above music with adding the police, Beatles, Toto and lots more, the guitarist and bass player were kind enough to teach me some basic stuff which I jumped at and with getting a keyboard player to harass, I started my journey to getting down the basics of playing all the other instruments which satisfied me to no ends. I moved from one band to another (not too many) and over 10 years, became a descent musician but I was always held back by one thing, absolutely no knowledge of music theory which, down the road has hurt me.

I did a stint in a couple of studios as a session drummer but chart reading was needed and I just couldn't get it and although they kept me for a lot of bookings, I was stepped over many times because of it and it sucked big time. I eventually stepped away from music creating and moved to the USA where about a year ago, I found an interest in movie orchestration (I have always loved classical music since I was a kid and listen to it to this day) and jumped into the deep dark world of sample libraries where this forum has helped incredibly. So, why the long winded post?

Its deep inside of me this music thing, I get emotional when I hear a beautiful piece of music in a movie or elsewhere (I mean teary eyed) and want to create it badly but just cant, I watch others on youtube but my attempts dont sound the same (or as good). I know im missing something but not sure what. so, I have taken the dive into further education and signed up for a couple of Thinkspace courses, I am half way through the music theory course and my wonderful wife just bought me their Cinematic Orchestration course which seems old (Guy Michelmore still has some hair) but it's early yet so Ill see how it goes. The music theory is a big struggle for me but I know if I stick with it, I should become a better composer?

I love that this thread has started as I so want to learn and create but I have scoured youtube for answers and that is a very deep rabbit hole that I fully didn't get the answers I needed, hopefully this kind of structure will get me there. I look forward to reading others journey and learn from them. Thanks for letting me rant, it's been a long time coming.


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## Markrs (Dec 25, 2020)

Rossy said:


> Its amazing that timing is everything and I myself are going through this same madness right now.I dont mean this to be long, but it's going to be. Some background about me, im 54, originally from Liverpool, GB, started drumming at about 11 years old, no lessons, just loved rush, queen, ELO (you get the picture) my mate across the road had a drum kit and I would go to his house nearly every night to learn to play (he got bored and would read spiderman comics while I tried to knock out songs) It lit a fire in me to this day, I dont know why but I loved it. Fast forward 6 years later and I joined my first band playing the above music with adding the police, Beatles, Toto and lots more, the guitarist and bass player were kind enough to teach me some basic stuff which I jumped at and with getting a keyboard player to harass, I started my journey to getting down the basics of playing all the other instruments which satisfied me to no ends. I moved from one band to another (not too many) and over 10 years, became a descent musician but I was always held back by one thing, absolutely no knowledge of music theory which, down the road has hurt me.
> 
> I did a stint in a couple of studios as a session drummer but chart reading was needed and I just couldn't get it and although they kept me for a lot of bookings, I was stepped over many times because of it and it sucked big time. I eventually stepped away from music creating and moved to the USA where about a year ago, I found an interest in movie orchestration (I have always loved classical music since I was a kid and listen to it to this day) and jumped into the deep dark world of sample libraries where this forum has helped incredibly. So, why the long winded post?
> 
> ...


Really lovely to hear your journey @Rossy and envious you can play instruments particularly drums, which given rhythm is so essential in modern orchestral music (technically all music has rhythm). I took Guy's theory course, which was great but it goes at a great pace and felt things were not as connected as to why chords sound like they do and why certain relationships of chords work together. I am always driven by curiosity so I have started to dive deeper into theory, but haven't started on orchestration yet. 

I hope you continue on this journey Rossy, and we can all learn together, especially with such kind people on this forum and the regular free help and advice they give


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## JohnG (Dec 25, 2020)

Markrs said:


> I like the idea of working with soloists at somepoint and with services like fiverr that it more approachable and affordable than before. Though I would be keen to pay more for someone to feedback improvements rather than just play what I send.


Both ideas are good. Players will not be offended if you explain that you’re trying to learn and ask for advice. Quite the opposite normally.

I grew up singing and playing saxophone (which orchestral players don’t necessarily regard as an instrument at all). Naturally most players know far more than composers about their instruments and, particularly at the moment, with few gigs available, have time. Some might even be willing to throw in a Zoom or FaceTime chat to give pointers.

if you don’t know a player you can post here on v.i. or PM


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