# What are the necessary steps in becoming a successful film composer.



## jadedsean (Apr 23, 2017)

Moderators please delete if against the rules of this page. Hi guys i'm just wondering if any of you kind people could take five mins out to do my survey on what it takes to be a composer in today's industry? I would very much appreciate any participation as it's for my thesis.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/5WKZ8J8


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## Lynyrd (Apr 23, 2017)

If I may, my point of view: Success at making music it's just having the opportunity to make the music regardless of the results. Doesn't matter if I make X amount of money from it... or if I become famous with it... zero expectations about the outcome after doing it.


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## Rowy (May 2, 2017)

jadedsean said:


> Moderators please delete if against the rules of this page. Hi guys i'm just wondering if any of you kind people could take five mins out to do my survey on what it takes to be a composer in today's industry? I would very much appreciate any participation as it's for my thesis.
> 
> https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/5WKZ8J8



The first question is '1. Do you think having an understanding of theoretical principles of music is important for a working composer today?'

That's an insult to composers.


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## Saxer (May 2, 2017)

As always: the questionary generates the results, not the answers.


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## sazema (May 2, 2017)

Hmm... it's questionable.
You have 2 possible answers, not steps 

1) You're so talented, and your work is brilliant, you're so unique
2) You're not so talented, but you know right people, you have money to pay talented musicians and people for your job

You know, there is a lot of talented people on earth, but unfort. they will never see the light and they will never be used because they are unknown and mostly because of 2.
And it's pretty much same for any job, not only this one.


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## muk (May 2, 2017)

The questions are very clearly framed, and you won't have a representative random sample pool by asking on this forum. This will not produce valid results. It's a bit ironic, really: 1. 'Do you think having an understanding of theoretical principles of empiric research is important for creators of surveys today?

Edit: sorry if that comes across as harsh. I was a bit irritated by the implications of the questions.


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## mc_deli (May 2, 2017)

Sorry, poor survey questions. They are mostly self serving and poorly worded. You would have been better off with a scale if importance with most of these.

My guess is, you are a vocational degree student without the academic support to get this in better shape ..? (At least that was my bitter experience, forgive my meanness)


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## Parsifal666 (May 2, 2017)

sazema said:


> Hmm... it's questionable.
> You have 2 possible answers, not steps
> 
> 1) You're so talented, and your work is brilliant, you're so unique
> ...



1) That doesn't hold anywhere near as much weight as it did, say, forty five years ago. I personally know some really impressive composers whom have written some of the most moving, profound things I've ever heard, but are completely unknown outside of...say, 5,000 Facebook likes (meant in a sly way, no one should judge someone's success by that model of course). I mean, these composers are capable of competing with some of the elite today...but every time they run into your number:

2) Which is (ask the majority of working composers) what most aspiring composers have to do. Larry David said it baldly: "You _need_ to know somebody".

You could also try paying and getting to know a really good music agent. It might cost you quite a bit, but you were going to spend all of that on libraries you don't really "need" anyway, right? (joking). Investing in a real, well-referenced music agent could be the chance you need...if you conscientiously investigate the potential candidates, you'll learn which agents are rubbing shoulders with the big guys (and gals).

I worked really hard, wrote every day for twelve years, and stumbled upon a popular-in-the-genre musician who was looking to make a comeback. That was nine years ago, and I'm still paying my rent with my music.

So yeah, I did end up knowing somebody.


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## sazema (May 2, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> 1) That doesn't hold anywhere near as much weight as it did, say, forty five years ago. I personally know some really impressive composers whom have written some of the most moving, profound things I've ever heard, but are completely unknown outside of...say, 5,000 Facebook likes (meant in a sly way, no one should judge someone's success by that model of course). I mean, these composers are capable of competing with some of the elite today...but every time they run into your number:
> 
> 2) Which is (ask the majority of working composers) what most aspiring composers have to do. Larry David said it baldly: "You _need_ to know somebody".
> 
> You could also try paying and getting to know a really good music agent. It might cost you quite a bit, but you were going to spend all of that on libraries you don't really "need" anyway, right? (joking)



Absolutely, there is a lot of variations to this answer, but I tend to short that best possible way


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## sazema (May 2, 2017)

I will give you one clue now



Listen this music with attention, especially intro (first minute or two). It's recorded sometimes in 2009 by Józef Skrzek.
How it's sounds like?


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## jadedsean (May 2, 2017)

Rowy said:


> The first question is '1. Do you think having an understanding of theoretical principles of music is important for a working composer today?'
> 
> That's an insult to composers.
> 
> The point of the study is aimed at absolute beginners so questions are designed with these principals in mind, and if a seasoned composer is doing this survey my hope is he or she will understand the basic in nature of questions and realize it's aimed at beginners. Its worth pointing out, the survey benefits from the experience of real working composers as well because real experience is valuable to any beginner. I also don't feel the first question is an insult as i know some people have never learnt any theory and have an intuitive ability to write music without any form of education.


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## jadedsean (May 2, 2017)

muk said:


> The questions are very clearly framed, and you won't have a representative random sample pool by asking on this forum. This will not produce valid results. It's a bit ironic, really: 1. 'Do you think having an understanding of theoretical principles of empiric research is important for creators of surveys today?
> 
> Edit: sorry if that comes across as harsh. I was a bit irritated by the implications of the questions.



It was never my intention to irritate anyone. I just felt beginners might actually benefit from composers that are actively working in the industry or working towards a career.


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## afterlight82 (May 2, 2017)

Question bias aside, I don't mean to be a naysayer, but how is an unsourced, unattributable online survey, the link of which you post publicly...considered good enough evidence for a _thesis_ at any academic institution?

It's not evidence of anything surely, unless you know the source. Anybody can click on that link and take it. It seems like a baffling methodology for something you're actually intending to submit academically?


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## jadedsean (May 2, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> Sorry, poor survey questions. They are mostly self serving and poorly worded. You would have been better off with a scale if importance with most of these.
> 
> My guess is, you are a vocational degree student without the academic support to get this in better shape ..? (At least that was my bitter experience, forgive my meanness)



It's funny i came to this forum because i felt composers might want to give their thoughts and experience of what it's like working in the industry. Instead it seems all people want to do is correct the survey itself, i apologize the survey isn't up to your standards as it's just a test as i wanted to gauge responses coming from this site.


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## Zhao Shen (May 2, 2017)

Are there steps? Make good music, and network with others. Done? There's no formula to success. I think Bo Burnham said it best: "Taylor Swift telling you to follow your dreams is like a lottery winner telling you, 'Liquidize your assets, buy Powerball tickets, it works!'"


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## Parsifal666 (May 2, 2017)

Zhao Shen said:


> Are there steps? Make good music, and network with others. Done? There's no formula to success. I think Bo Burnham said it best: "Taylor Swift telling you to follow your dreams is like a lottery winner telling you, 'Liquidize your assets, buy Powerball tickets, it works!'"



Super cool analogy.


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## afterlight82 (May 2, 2017)

jadedsean said:


> It's funny i came to this forum because i felt composers might want to give their thoughts and experience of what it's like working in the industry. Instead it seems all people want to do is correct the survey itself, i apologize the survey isn't up to your standards as it's just a test as i wanted to gauge responses coming from this site.



Oh, I'm sorry, it's _our_ fault. Of course.

I think if you take a few minutes you'll find literally thousands upon thousands of posts of composers sharing their thoughts about what it's like working in the industry. I'm not sure why you think the site owes you anything or the many working composers on it need to take your survey, particularly when the questions are kind of loaded and seem to be yielding a certain bias.

This is the real world; we don't sugarcoat stuff to your feelings and we owe you zip. Everybody is nice here, but ask not great questions and people will say "hey, that's not a great question". If you don't like that, tough. There are people here who routinely score $50m-$100m movies and video games...owners of companies...software and sampling pioneers, hobbyists who make the pros look lame. This is not high school.

As such, we can look at your questions and say they're poor. "what genre of film scoring do you consider most effective" for one, with answers being a range of dates. Firstly, _dates_ aren't _genres_. Secondly, the question is over simplistic as to be meaningless...1980's could mean anything from Williams to Carpenter to the smooth jazz sax music on a soft porn movie. I mean, c'mon, get real, you're kind of insulting people's intelligence.


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## jadedsean (May 2, 2017)

afterlight82 said:


> Question bias aside, I don't mean to be a naysayer, but how is an unsourced, unattributable online survey, the link of which you post publicly...considered good enough evidence for a _thesis_ at any academic institution?
> 
> It's not evidence of anything surely, unless you know the source. Anybody can click on that link and take it. It seems like a baffling methodology for something you're actually intending to submit academically?



The surveys is aimed at an active community of composers


afterlight82 said:


> Question bias aside, I don't mean to be a naysayer, but how is an unsourced, unattributable online survey, the link of which you post publicly...considered good enough evidence for a _thesis_ at any academic institution?
> 
> It's not evidence of anything surely, unless you know the source. Anybody can click on that link and take it. It seems like a baffling methodology for something you're actually intending to submit academically?



Well for one its aimed a community of composers so the likelihood of anybody doing the survey is slim.


afterlight82 said:


> Oh, I'm sorry, it's _our_ fault. Of course.
> 
> I think if you take a few minutes you'll find literally thousands upon thousands of posts of composers sharing their thoughts about what it's like working in the industry. I'm not sure why you think the site owes you anything or the many working composers on it need to take your survey, particularly when the questions are kind of loaded and seem to be yielding a certain bias.
> 
> ...



Cheers for your input, if you read my previous post you would see i stated it was never my intention to insult anybody on this forum, if anything i felt the survey was innocent in nature. Yeah of course the questions could be improved upon but again as stated it's a test survey to gauge responses coming from this website. By the way i never suggested this community owes me anything i merely made the point the survey is for beginners and would appreciate any help from experienced composers. I don't understand why your wasting your time energy on this, if you have done the survey thank you for your participation and your criticism i will take on board.


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## Rowy (May 2, 2017)

>as i know some people have never learnt any theory and have an intuitive ability to write music without any form of education.

And I know someone who was abducted by aliens. Your turn.


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## Rowy (May 2, 2017)

anthraxsnax said:


> You would be amazed at how many members of this forum adamantly disagree
> 
> And while I won't say how I feel about it, I'd hate to see this thread fly in this direction... many "modern" composers couldn't tie their shoes without a computer holding their hand



Mediocre talents like Mozart, Van Beethoven, Wagner, Debussy and so on needed lessons, but the kids nowadays are so smart, I guess they could become anything, from composers to theoretical physicists, without having to study. It's because of those wonderful computers. I wished I was born a couple of decades later. When I was a teenager, all you had to write music was some paper, a pencil and an old piano. And a brain of course.

Is this the right flight direction?


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## afterlight82 (May 2, 2017)

jadedsean said:


> The surveys is aimed at an active community of composers
> Well for one its aimed a community of composers so the likelihood of anybody doing the survey is slim.



But you still have no idea of who is answering and what their knowledge or skill level is. I don't know what your professors at DIT consider good primary sources, but who knows. (I only know that because you posted it to Perspective too, and it was like "ugh, this again").

You do realize there's a sizable portion of the working industry reading here and on Perspective? If you're looking to make an impression on the industry, asking irritating survey questions that people have pointed out are obviously pointless is not exactly a top notch way to go about it. I mean, most of us get annoyed when car dealers and telemarketers ring with surveys...consider the effect and perhaps quit spamming the professional community with it.


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## jadedsean (May 2, 2017)

anthraxsnax said:


> I'm not irritated in the slightest
> 
> So don't let him discourage you. He IS however probably defensive about a question or two asked, based on me triggering him in another thread for suggesting someone program midi drums instead of using canned loops.
> 
> ...


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## ctsai89 (May 2, 2017)

Rowy said:


> Mediocre talents like Mozart, Van Beethoven, Wagner, Debussy and so on needed lessons, but the kids nowadays are so smart, I guess they could become anything, from composers to theoretical physicists, without having to study. It's because of those wonderful computers. I wished I was born a couple of decades later. When I was a teenager, all you had to write music was some paper, a pencil and an old piano. And a brain of course.
> 
> Is this the right flight direction?



lol. A couple decades later... or a few hundred years later when there's wars like Mars vs Earth/milky way vs andromeda. Pretty sure fighting and dying in space is a lot more fun.


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## Parsifal666 (May 2, 2017)

Besides three guitar lessons, I am completely self-taught, and am a published composer for chamber and symphony orchestra, rock and metal, even country western (a genre I generally can't stand) and a couple of independent film trailers. I'm _*far*_ from great, or even strikingly good, but I do okay.

Depends on how driven you are.


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## jadedsean (May 2, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> Besides three guitar lessons, I am completely self-taught, and am a published composer for chamber and symphony orchestra, rock and metal, even country western (a genre I generally can't stand) and a couple of independent film trailers. I'm _*far*_ from great, or even strikingly good, but I do okay.
> 
> Depends on how driven you are.


Completely agree, i am


anthraxsnax said:


> this is a point I'd like to make... when I picked up guitar at 16 I was flying at 17 and everyone called it talent... I called it 13 hours a day every day for 9 months. Knowledge is useless without the drive, and school isn't the ONLY way to get the knowledge. When I bought the college text book with my own money - before I took my 2nd class(went straight to AP and got straight 5s /flex) I didn't know anything about music 7 months before hand.(not even how many letters, lines in a staff) and I read the text book on the only vacation I've ever been on(me and my dad went out west, just to visit states) and cranked the example DVD in my cd player while I read it.
> 
> "self taught" doesn't always mean "i choose not to learn anything about music theory" - as must of my learning came from countless hours feeding my obsessions. however - as painful as harmonic dictation is, the payoff is enormous



I completely agree, i myself am a guitarist and have developed my own musicality from a young age which led me to somewhat of a career in the industry, i had somewhat of an understanding of principals of music because when your around other musicians you pick up real world experience, in my opinion this and transcribing is what can improve anyone's endeavor to be musical. Funny thing about theory, the more you know doesn't necessarily lead to better compositions, some times it can even bog you down when formulating ideas. Music came first before academics categorized it, i like Mike Verta's take on it, theory is a reversed engineered. Although having a understanding of theory can be great to communicate ideas between musicians.


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## CT (May 2, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> Depends on how driven you are.



Completely agree with this. If you have the necessary motivation to figure it out on your own, you can. Some people have that motivation, and some even fare way better with that method than they would being taught by others. It helps if you already have something of a musical foundation to go on; starting from scratch on your own may be a little harder. 

Doing it mostly under my own steam is just what worked for me, but obviously people are wired differently. It's definitely something to think very long and very hard about, to be sure of what approach is best for your brain.

By the way, Parsifal666, I rarely feel like I have enough of a personality on here to get involved in discussions, so thanks for making posts that are so often proxies for my own feelings, and sorry about the frequent "likes."


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## givemenoughrope (May 2, 2017)

The most important thing is PR: making puff pieces where you can humblebrag/convince everyone that pads, drones, and three note motifs are some huge musical achievement that has been conjured from some other realm. It's sales.

edit- I'm sort of exaggerating/being sarcastic of course. But you know...


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## jadedsean (May 2, 2017)

anthraxsnax said:


> once you get more comfortable and it's second nature - it simply reinforces your ideas... when I come up with a melody and chord progression, I can already come up with variants both melodically and harmonically to change the mood... this is what john Williams is KING at. theory is simply a way of understanding HOW to get what you want out of your listener... and it is 100% based on reversed engineering... that's the funniest part... people wrote music by ear... a man by the name of J.S. Bach decided to start keeping tally of different pieces and patterns that people were drawn to, and how they effected the listener - and he proceeded to write formulas to reproduce these effects easier, and deeper understand them.
> 
> that was the birth of western music theory as we know it - and it's 100% based on reverse engineering... and when I make my music - I use my brain to reinforce my ears. and sometimes I use my brain to kick start my ears... i.e. making a chord progression with the brain - looping it and just listening until a melody comes to me...
> 
> ...


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## SillyMidOn (May 2, 2017)

anthraxsnax said:


> Everything I've ever made that I'm truly proud of was born on paper



Do you have offspring?


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## Flaneurette (May 10, 2017)

By doing what you love...

Here's an anecdote, parable, or Zen Tale, which pretty much sums it up:

A woodsman is cutting down trees in the forest with his ax, when suddenly a powerful animal with special powers appears before him. He immediately imagines how catching this animal could leave him with immense financial reward, so he tries to kill it with his ax.

He starts swinging his ax at the animal, but every time the ax seems to hit the animal it disappears and pops up in a different spot. He's only cutting thin air. The animal suddenly appears behind him. He swings at it with his ax, again to no avail. This keeps happening until finally, the woodsman gives up chasing it, and goes back to cutting trees.

He forgets about the rare animal. As soon as he swings at a tree, the blade of the ax slips off the wooden handle and flies into a random direction. He looks up and sees the ax has struck the animal, instantly killing it.​


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## Frederick Russ (May 11, 2017)

Why just a "Film" composer? Why not media composer instead (Film, Games, Television, Movie Trailers, Music libraries, Licensing Music, Commercial Advertising)?

I think the question is flawed. Do you realize how many people are essentially vying for only 12 ideal spots in the Hollywood Composing arena? And how wide the market is in other areas such as games & television? 

On one hand it's absolutely okay to shoot for the stars. In the interim, however, particularly if you have a family, there are mouths to feed, bills to pay and mature decisions to be made regarding career. The key is to becoming a WHOLE composer - not just a film composer. The magic word is diversify. Which also means giving back by taking on students to show them the ropes - pass on the legacy sort of thing, volunteering at your local chamber of commerce, making sure you hit trade shows and keep your business contacts alive.


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## handz (May 11, 2017)

Be a slave of current trends
Have a lot of luck


and some talent


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## Ned Bouhalassa (May 11, 2017)

Do it full-time and don't quit.


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## Prockamanisc (May 11, 2017)

Frederick Russ said:


> volunteering at your local chamber of commerce


I've thought about that but couldn't really see any value in it for composers. What is there to be gained by joining the CoC? If it's worthwhile, I'll definitely do it.


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## InLight-Tone (May 11, 2017)

These questions really piss me off. By asking said question in a forum means you are not working. If you don't put in time and effort i.e., work, you will not be successful. Those who are successful have an intense, fierce work ethic. Stop over ANALyzing and get busy...


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## Ned Bouhalassa (May 12, 2017)

I am reading this forum instead of working, and you know what? It feels GREAT! Yes, it's true that it takes hard work to be successful, but there's no reason why one can't do reasearch on one's trade at the same time, chewing gum while walking.


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## Leon Willett (May 12, 2017)

you can chew gum and walk at the same time??? :O


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## InLight-Tone (May 12, 2017)

Well at least on this forum the questions aren't as stupid and clear signs of procrastination as to what goes on at KVR...


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## David Hall (May 13, 2017)

sazema said:


> I will give you one clue now
> 
> 
> 
> ...



that is magnificent!!


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