# Another Computer investment question



## Andrajas (May 8, 2018)

Hi everyone, 
So, I'm in need of a computer. Having received some scholarships I'm looking for "going big" meaning investing in something that can serve me and my work many years to come. I work mostly with trailer music (which the projects can get pretty heavy) and film music , so a lot of sample libraries is used. 

The iMac pro looks interesting. My configuration atm looks like the standard one, but added more RAM to 64. Since the new Mac Pro looks to take a while before it comes out, I can't wait for that one.

As I said, want to invest in something that can assure to last for a long time. So what would you do in my case? Go for the iMac Pro? Buy the current Mac pro? I'm a mac guy, so no PC for me  

thanks,


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## MatFluor (May 8, 2018)

If you're dead-on mac for whatever reason, you might also have a look at the other building threads and go for a hackintosh - I have no experience about their performance - but "for many years to come" would mean a good CPU with many cores (or multiple CPUs even), 64+ GB of RAM, SSDs and of course the ability to upgrade (swap components etc)

Or - depending how you work - a VEP setup can be beneficial as well.


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## Andrajas (May 8, 2018)

MatFluor said:


> If you're dead-on mac for whatever reason, you might also have a look at the other building threads and go for a hackintosh - I have no experience about their performance - but "for many years to come" would mean a good CPU with many cores (or multiple CPUs even), 64+ GB of RAM, SSDs and of course the ability to upgrade (swap components etc)
> 
> Or - depending how you work - a VEP setup can be beneficial as well.


Yeah, have heard good and bad stories of people I know going for a hackintosh. 

Maybe I'm exaggerating a bit. Its not that I need a monster computer. I'm not in that state in my carrier at all that I somehow work on huge templates and such. I just want a smooth computer and since I received some scholarships , i think I can afford a better computer than i thought about before. 

I just prefer Mac. Been using only macs for the last couple of years (only used PC when I was a kid) and every time I sit at a PC now, i don't like the "setup". But thats just me hehe. 

Want a simple station that allows me to work without any hassle.


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## MatFluor (May 8, 2018)

I'm a guy who is "buy it for life" or "buy once, cry once" or "futureproofing"

So I'll always advise higher than "currently" needed


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## Parsifal666 (May 8, 2018)

I have a Dell Inspiron 32 GB Ram 1 TB memory laptop and it works really good, even for my gigunda projects. Dell is pretty darn good imo...especially as long as the warranty holds out (but then, that goes for many manufacturers).


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## DAW PLUS (May 8, 2018)

If you insist on a Mac, but the fastest CPU you can afford. High core speed for low latency, many cores for large projects.
Note that high core speed means a high base clock, not just the mentioned turbo speed.


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## Andrajas (May 8, 2018)

If I take the iMac Pro for instance, this is what I can afford when I configure it:

3.2GHz 8-core Intel Xeon W processor, Turbo Boost up to 4.2GHz
64GB 2666MHz DDR4 ECC memory
1TB SSD
Radeon Pro Vega 56 with 8GB of HBM2 memory


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 8, 2018)

Instead of the iMac Pro, I would get the top end iMac....unless you're doing a lot of intense work with graphics. The prices of those iMac Pro's are just insane and I doubt you would ever even scratch the surface of their potential.

Just remember that with an iMac, you are stuck with that display. I really wish there was more news on the new Mac Pro.


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## burp182 (May 8, 2018)

As the proud owner of a line of Macs from the the original 128K "toaster" forward, I'm going to make a horrifying suggestion: unless you're using (and devoted to) Logic, consider switching to a PC. My main DAW is on a 2008 Mac Pro and I love the durability of the closed system but if I were starting from scratch, I'd use a PC. Not because I like Windows but because of the cost/value ratio. The new Macs are so brutally expensive that it's a challenge to budget for one. And I fear that the long lifespan Mac Pros have enjoyed may well not be the case with the iMac Pro. Cooling and case volume, along with a captive screen right up against the furnace don't bode well for a 10-12 year life. And with a configuration like you're describing in the $5K range, I'm guessing it needs to last.
Rather than looking at the computer as an investment, consider it as a consumable. Like any other consumable, it has a span of time where it's useful and then is considered used up and disposable. You can have a pretty honking PC built for you in the $1700-$1800 range, built on server-quality motherboards to help ensure longevity and reliability. 
Considering the pace of technology, what seems more potent across 12 years - a single iMac Pro (assuming it survives) or 3 PC systems, each one more powerful than the last?
Not saying this is the answer, but it is a question worth asking when viewed across the long term, as you seem to be looking at the issue.

As always, YMMV.


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## Dewdman42 (May 8, 2018)

I dunno I'm in love with my 2010 MacPro, but I'm pretty sure we are just a few os versions away from Apple severely ticking me off in some way. When that happens I am not sure what i'm going to do. Currently use Logic mainly but I'm testing out Cubase and Reaper.


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## artomatic (May 8, 2018)

Andrajas said:


> If I take the iMac Pro for instance, this is what I can afford when I configure it:
> 
> 3.2GHz 8-core Intel Xeon W processor, Turbo Boost up to 4.2GHz
> 64GB 2666MHz DDR4 ECC memory
> ...



I purchased an iMac Pro in January with this same exact configuration. Very happy with it. At first I was worried about the fan noise issue since my son owns the fan-happy iMac 2007 but I've yet to hear it on this. 
I haven't had a need for a slave PC for VEP as of yet. It is very expensive but I'm a happy camper with the purchase and its stellar performance. 
All the best!


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 8, 2018)

I just cringe at the thought of repair prices after the warranty expires on those iMac Pro`s :(

I always run Cubase for the odd project, as I`m also on fence with what I`ll do when it`s time to upgrade from my MB Pro. That way if I ever leave Apple, I`m already versed in Cubase.


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## keyjam (May 8, 2018)

Recently got the base iMac Pro and its really fast and stays quiet even under heavy processing. I am able to experience the value and somewhat justify due to day job for which I can utilize the extra horsepower. While I'm sure it will be upstaged soon, I think this is somewhat further proof. The ability to connect multiple high res monitors was important to me as was the additional ports so I would choose it over a beefy standard iMac or the Mac Pro. Waiting on a new Mac Pro is too speculative and it likely will cost more then the iMac Pro anyway. I use PC's as well, but for me the extra time spent in configuration and "system administration" is something to consider. The hardware may be more consumable, but the software and drivers for me are important so I can focus on the fun and not the computing (which I get enough of with the day job). I have enough to learn and like spending more time researching how to use all the creative tools as opposed to researching how to get them to work on a given platform configuration / combination (hackintosh, custom PC). Congrats on the scholarships and being in a position to upgrade.


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## Michael Antrum (May 8, 2018)

I have a Late 2015 iMac 5k 1TB Flash which is my main workstation. But I also have an old Cheesegrater Mac Pro which I stuck 64gb in for a ridiculously low price (thanks ebay).

Perhaps consider a Mac for your Daw, and a separate slave (mac or pc) with VePro for the heavy lifting...


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## Andrajas (May 8, 2018)

great thoughts everyone! helps a lot
If I look at my situation, I live in a small student apartment and it looks like i need to have my "work place" here for a while before i get the chance to move it. This means i don't have to much space for my computer, so separate slaves may take up more space than i have atm. Thats why the iMac Pro looks interesting since i get a powerful computer that seems to not take up lot of space. A lot of money indeed, thats why this is so hard hehe. 



artomatic said:


> I purchased an iMac Pro in January with this same exact configuration. Very happy with it. At first I was worried about the fan noise issue since my son owns the fan-happy iMac 2007 but I've yet to hear it on this.
> I haven't had a need for a slave PC for VEP as of yet. It is very expensive but I'm a happy camper with the purchase and its stellar performance.
> All the best!


Happy to hear this! 

is it best to also get the Apple Care?


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## artomatic (May 9, 2018)

To be honest, I’ve never once purchased Apple Care. I’ve owned most of their major products. Feeling fortunate not having any need for it. 

But if you can afford the security and peace of mind, then go for it!


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## Andrajas (May 16, 2018)

Hello again guys, another question, would you say that the current Mac Pro is a good investment ?


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## Prockamanisc (May 16, 2018)

Andrajas said:


> Hello again guys, another question, would you say that the current Mac Pro is a good investment ?


From a reseller, and not from Apple directly, yes.


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## SillyMidOn (May 16, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Instead of the iMac Pro, I would get the top end iMac....unless you're doing a lot of intense work with graphics. The prices of those iMac Pro's are just insane and I doubt you would ever even scratch the surface of their potential.


Very sound advice!


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## Andrajas (May 16, 2018)

Prockamanisc said:


> From a reseller, and not from Apple directly, yes.


Like if I configure the Mac Pro as I want it, its nearly the same price as the iMac pro, you mean its cheaper at a reseller?



Wolfie2112 said:


> Instead of the iMac Pro, I would get the top end iMac....unless you're doing a lot of intense work with graphics. The prices of those iMac Pro's are just insane and I doubt you would ever even scratch the surface of their potential.
> 
> Just remember that with an iMac, you are stuck with that display. I really wish there was more news on the new Mac Pro.





SillyMidOn said:


> Very sound advice!



I mean, as you say, being stuck with that display only may be a problem in a future. And what about the fan noise?


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## SillyMidOn (May 16, 2018)

Andrajas said:


> I mean, as you say, being stuck with that display only may be a problem in a future. And what about the fan noise?



The display is not an issue, really - they are gorgeous. I just think the iMac Pro is very expensive and a top of the range iMac is already powerful as you can ramp it up to 64gb. Another thing to remember is that with the iMac Pro: if you want more RAM, you have to specify this when you buy it from apple, and buy their expensive RAM, and then that's it, you can't change it anymore - there are vids online on how to do it, but it's not designed to be easily done, afaik. On the iMac however, you can swap out the ram yourself, and buy it at a cheaper cost than directly from apple.


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## Andrajas (May 16, 2018)

SillyMidOn said:


> The display is not an issue, really - they are gorgeous. I just think the iMac Pro is very expensive and a top of the range iMac is already powerful as you can ramp it up to 64gb. Another thing to remember is that with the iMac Pro: if you want more RAM, you have to specify this when you buy it from apple, and buy their expensive RAM, and then that's it, you can't change it anymore - there are vids online on how to do it, but it's not designed to be easily done, afaik. On the iMac however, you can swap out the ram yourself, and buy it at a cheaper cost than directly from apple.



Yeah but was just thinking if you would like to add screens, you can't. 
Indeed, the top of the range iMac is a big difference in price. Do you think it will still be viable in 4-5 years time?

I have 2 more scholarships that I'm waiting for results on. If I'm lucky to receive one of those, going big won't be an issue. But thinking more of going for the iMac if that doesnt happen. The Mac Pro you can also upgrade later right?


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## X-Bassist (May 16, 2018)

Yes. The Mac Pro can have Ram added (up to 128GB, easy swap out) and internal SSD upgraded through OWC and others. To me it’s a small wonder for VI composing and the prices are finally reasonable. I’ve got 2 thunderbolt Akito boxes (holding 4 SSD each) plus 3 screens at HD+ and it’s all working smoothly through the 6 Thunderbolt ports. 
https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/mem...zaRn4xYaAvfFEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds#1866-memory


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## SillyMidOn (May 17, 2018)

Andrajas said:


> Yeah but was just thinking if you would like to add screens, you can't.
> Indeed, the top of the range iMac is a big difference in price. Do you think it will still be viable in 4-5 years time?


Yes, you should easily get 5-6 years use out of it.
You can add screens to an iMac, you just need to buy the correct cable/adaptor depending on what you are connecting. But 27 inches is a lot of screen real estate already.



Andrajas said:


> I have 2 more scholarships that I'm waiting for results on. If I'm lucky to receive one of those, going big won't be an issue. But thinking more of going for the iMac if that doesnt happen. The Mac Pro you can also upgrade later right?


The Mac Pro can be upgraded later, but I'm not sure if you are aware that this model will soon be obsolete (probably some time next year) - although it is still a very powerful machine, but I personally would not want to buy a model that is soon to be discontinued. Apple designed themselves into a corner with that model and you are paying a lot of money for powerful graphics cards you don't need. https://www.theverge.com/2017/4/4/15175994/apple-mac-pro-failure-admission

You can change the RAM on an iMac Pro as well, but it has to be done by apple or an authorised dealer, which is far from convenient. Standard iMacs have a small access hatch to swap the Ram out, which iMac Pros don't.

Hope that helps.


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 17, 2018)

Andrajas said:


> Yeah but was just thinking if you would like to add screens, you can't.
> Indeed, the top of the range iMac is a big difference in price. Do you think it will still be viable in 4-5 years time?
> 
> I have 2 more scholarships that I'm waiting for results on. If I'm lucky to receive one of those, going big won't be an issue. But thinking more of going for the iMac if that doesnt happen. The Mac Pro you can also upgrade later right?



You can add more displays, but no matter what you configure in your studio, you're stuck with the 27". It is a beautiful display though.


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## DAW PLUS (May 18, 2018)

IMO buying a 3 generations old unit for several thousands of dollars is insane. 
The regular iMac is only a quadcore and for serious composing with tons of libraries and synths, it maxes out at some point, especially when using small buffers for low latency.
The iMac Pro IMO is only a niche solution, that much power behind a screen is asking for issues at some point. It runs pretty hot as it stays silent, with audio you may have an advantage because the actual voltage will not ramp up as much as with 3D for example. Price/performance is ok, those simply are expensive chips, but the RAM and CPU upgrade pricing is very hardcore. Note that the CPU upgrade costs more than the CPU itself costs retail on the market.
Anyway, that is the Apple road, take it or leave it.


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## Dewdman42 (May 18, 2018)

You can get a 2010 Mac Pro loaded up with ram for $1500 refurbished with faster cpu too. It will serve you just fine


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## DAW PLUS (May 18, 2018)

That is 5 generations back, I don't keep track on OSX & application support for older systems, but that would be something to look at.


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## Dewdman42 (May 18, 2018)

My 2010 5,1 macpro still runs everything. 2012 model is also out there with the same 5,1 architecture. It’s actually a very screaming fast 12 core machine and I like that the hd’s Are inside the case with room for more as well as pci slots. I’d much rather have this then any of the newer offerings to date


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## Andrajas (May 18, 2018)

DAW PLUS said:


> IMO buying a 3 generations old unit for several thousands of dollars is insane.
> The regular iMac is only a quadcore and for serious composing with tons of libraries and synths, it maxes out at some point, especially when using small buffers for low latency.
> The iMac Pro IMO is only a niche solution, that much power behind a screen is asking for issues at some point. It runs pretty hot as it stays silent, with audio you may have an advantage because the actual voltage will not ramp up as much as with 3D for example. Price/performance is ok, those simply are expensive chips, but the RAM and CPU upgrade pricing is very hardcore. Note that the CPU upgrade costs more than the CPU itself costs retail on the market.
> Anyway, that is the Apple road, take it or leave it.


Yeah, its all this that makes everything so difficult. Hard to decide what to do....
If I get lucky and receive more scholarships, I may just go for the iMac Pro, even if its cost much more. Then I know I have something very good that last long. It may be a problem in the future with it running hot behind the screen, but I do think it will really serve me well.

if not, its either a maxed iMac or mac pro I will go for, but it will probably be the iMac. I think overall, where I am in my current career and living space, the iMac or iMac pro is a good choice. 

the good thing is that all the money i spend here are actually scholarships money, which somewhat makes it easier


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## simsung (May 31, 2018)

interesting threat here!
im also thinking about changing the system from mac pro 6.1 to imac 2015 i7 27". 
i bought the nMP 1 year ago when realizing cubase doesnt like too many cores (cheesegrater 12core 3,33ghz).
So the nMP has 6 cores now and works better in bigger projects than the 5.1 did. But this is only a Cubase problem!
The thought now is to sell the nMP and get a imac because of 2 reasons:
- once the new mac pro comes out my 6.1 will lose lots of value i guess
- since i also tried windows custom made audio PC with a newer CPU which worked even better, i think the i7 of the imac will be also be a better choice. 
Moneywise i wont lose much by selling the mac pro since it was a refurbished one and i got it when the price dropped and i found a imac 2015 i7 with 1tb ssd for 1700€.
the negative aspect is what i read here too - the fan noise of the imac.
Am i right with these thesis?


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## Dewdman42 (May 31, 2018)

Cubase has problems with 12 cores?


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## DAW PLUS (May 31, 2018)

No. Why do you think so?


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## Dewdman42 (May 31, 2018)

I’m asking simsung who just said so


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## DAW PLUS (May 31, 2018)

Ah, sorry, I missed that. It actually baffles me, Cubase supports 32 threads (virtual cores), which means 16 real cores + Hyperthreading on most systems. And that works, both on OSX and Win. So now I am curious, too.


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## JohnG (May 31, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> My 2010 5,1 macpro still runs everything. 2012 model is also out there with the same 5,1 architecture. It’s actually a very screaming fast 12 core machine and I like that the hd’s Are inside the case with room for more as well as pci slots. I’d much rather have this then any of the newer offerings to date



I followed this strategy, which was an excellent option a few years ago; I am not sure I'd go this route today, only because I really would like Thunderbolt 3 on any future computer. 

Advantages of older machines:
1. Way cheap, and cheap to load up on RAM;
2. As @Dewdman42 wrote above, you can put up to six hard drives in one with an adapter (more if you are willing to forego your DVD tray);
3. Speed is very good (3.46 GHz);
4. Very quiet.

Limitations:
1. Eventual Obsolescence (?) -- My 2010 Mac Pro that runs my DAW has been upgraded with 12 cores @3.46GHz and a lot of RAM, so it is very fast and handles a good bit. Today, it's on 10.11.6 El Capitan and may go to Sierra (it's compatible with High Sierra according to the update program), so it can last quite a while. 

At some point, however, you are not going to be able to update OS and when that happens you quickly can be frustrated with add-on software not being compatible (SFX and so on);

2. Thunderbolt 3 not integrated. Maybe could buy a card or something but then you have to take up a slot, and it's an older slot so not so sure about compatibility -- haven't investigated.

*New Options?*

*iMac *The "regular" iMac looks pretty good to me right now, especially if you want it to be the "brain" and add a muscly PC slave computer to house libraries. The iMac itself is pretty reasonable -- $2,300 including 32GB of RAM and the 3.6GHz processor. You can use Thunderbolt to add additional drives; a good enclosure, I hear, is about $400.

*MacBook Pro *Another good-looking option, especially for a young person / student for whom portability could be helpful, might be their laptop, the MacBook Pro, though this one I would think would almost require an additional slave PC to support it because of the 16GB ceiling on RAM. I am looking at this to replace both my current MacBook Air and the ancient Mac Pro that runs Pro Tools for me. At $2,500 it's a bit more expensive and also only would have 16GB of RAM, but the processor is "quite" fast and it's portable.

I'm agnostic about PC / Mac; have three Macs and four PCs. That said, the value seems like a good deal to me. My Macs have lasted _forever, _I like their free software, and even my oldest computers still have some value second-hand, so the "it's a ripoff" argument doesn't wash with me. 

I also groan at the brain damage of configuring a PC's BIOS and all its fiddly bits to be optimised for audio. I know it's doable; I've done it many times. I just don't _like_ doing it and it seems that Microsoft come out every five minutes with "helpful updates" that I have to turn off.


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## Dewdman42 (May 31, 2018)

As of today the 2012 macpro is still the best option. What Apple does in the future is unknown. I plan to get five more years at least out of my macpro


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## Dewdman42 (May 31, 2018)

Warning about mbp’s. My 2010 mbp has hardware issues and just about every year since there are some serious hardware issues with them with very poor accountability from Apple I will probably not ever buy another mbp.

If I need another laptop I will get a tablet and Apple is way behind the curve on those, so it would have to be winblows


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## simsung (May 31, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> Cubase has problems with 12 cores?


I had that problem and asked in the steinberg forum as well as the support. (projects became significantly slow and hard to handle once i used a couple more tracks (i dont know the exact number anymore, but way too less than expected) In the forum it came out that im not alone. I did a quick test by just opening a session and see how many instances of instrument tracks with a ram consuming library it handles. the result was: cubase suddenly jumped to a cpu usage of around 1500% at about 95 tracks and quickly freezed. in logic i stopped at around 180 tracks with almost full ram and not much cpu usage. Same in ProTools.
In the steinberg forum one user reported a test where the 6 core 6.1 smoked the 12core 5.1 and so on ... 
the support couldnt tell me what was going on and what the problem was. 

some quotes:
"same issue here: Big Sessions become very slow and laggy on 12 Core 3,33 ghz mac pro 10.12 Sierra on C9."
"I just finished a Mac swap, upgraded my Mac in the commercial studio I run and replaced my 2012 4 core 2.66 Mac Mini i7 with 16Gb of RAM in my home studio with the 2010 12 core 2.66 Mac Pro with 32Gb of RAM and the performance with Cubase is pretty much the same which is very disappointing."

read more here: https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=226&t=90765&p=675959#p688830
but there is a bigger threat about that topic, i cant find it right now, but can search later , if anyone is interested.


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## DAW PLUS (Jun 1, 2018)

Sounds like a bug in C9 on OSX to me then. 8.5 had better performance on Windows for sure, but hard to tell how much has to do with multithreading. Cubase/Nuendo has supported 32 threads since forever now.


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## simsung (Jun 1, 2018)

DAW PLUS said:


> Sounds like a bug in C9 on OSX to me then. 8.5 had better performance on Windows for sure, but hard to tell how much has to do with multithreading. Cubase/Nuendo has supported 32 threads since forever now.



that was on 8.5


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## DAW PLUS (Jun 1, 2018)

Hard to tell for me then, I don't have much knowledge on OSX. I can only say it is more than strange, as Cubase has had excellent multithreading for years.


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## fionapereira (Jun 2, 2018)

Hi all! I seek your advice on which would be a better option as a new composer...the iMac Pro base model or the iMac 2017 5K one? I've read a lot about the fan noise on the 2017 iMac but the memory is upgradable. Pls. help


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## Andrajas (Jun 3, 2018)

Yeah so i didn't revive the other scholarships and now know how much i can spend on this. The iMac Pro is off for me. The normal Imac looks okey, but again wonder also about the fan noise and how much 4 cores really can handle. I don't usually work on the biggest projects, but sometimes i work on trailer tracks which requires a lot of stuff.


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## simsung (Jun 3, 2018)

fionapereira said:


> Hi all! I seek your advice on which would be a better option as a new composer...the iMac Pro base model or the iMac 2017 5K one? I've read a lot about the fan noise on the 2017 iMac but the memory is upgradable. Pls. help



i would take the maxed out 2015 i7 imac into consideration: check the results on geekbench its almost the same as the 2017 model, but some advantges: cheaper at least 1000€$, TB2 connections (i guess you also need additional SSD´s) and no fan problems.
This video gives you some good impressions.


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## simsung (Jun 6, 2018)

And for me, my question has been answered simply by the fact that i use 4 monitors right now which is not possible with an imac - so gonna stay with the mac pro until the next one comes out


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## Andrajas (Jun 24, 2018)

I ordered the standard iMac Pro today! Big investment but think I will be very happy with it!


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