# Industry noob thread



## FredrikJonasson (Aug 16, 2015)

Hi everyone,

So I'm finally taking some kind of leap into the professional world of music making, and with that new question marks arises. 

This one gig is partly non-profit though, a documentary financially supported by the Swedish International Development Cooperation. However my contact, who most certainly is the writer and director, says: "Get back with info regarding costs on royalties and similar". 

As I've understood it, the documentary will be premiered in a library and be released online for free. What is royalties and "similar"? How would you tackle royalties in a project like this? Unless it was supposed be shown in television, I didn't think there were any royalties at all.

Sorry for the lack of details, please ask away. Then I too can get an idea of what to ask the guy in charge.


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## FredrikJonasson (Aug 17, 2015)

Also, if a game developer wants full rights to my music, does that mean I wont get any bonus regardless of how popular the game turns out to be? In other words, the only payment I get is the upfront?


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## Dean (Aug 17, 2015)

Frederick, you should contact STIM(Swedish Performing Rights Society)
,become a member,..they will fill you in on royalties and anything relevant you need to know.

I think he just means give him figures on your upfront fee and the royalty percentage that youre happy with...(the standard royalty split is 50/50.),..this can be negotiated,...there are other types of royalties 'mechanical','sheet music etc,..but the main one to focus on are the 'Broadcast' royalties.Royalties are collected from some online websites/channels but not in this case if its free or educational,..none the less these things need to be agreed upon and its a good chance for you to learn the ropes a bit.

I never worked on games but that depends on the deal you decide to take (or make )if you can negotiate.
If the money is good usually you only get your upfront fee but if it the money is terrible maybe you can negotiate a deferred payment if the game does well? D


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## RiffWraith (Aug 17, 2015)

FredrikJonasson said:


> As I've understood it, the documentary will be premiered in a library and be released online for free. What is royalties and "similar"?



In the typical film deal, the film retains the publishing and the composer retains the writers share. You want your contract to say that you retain 100% of the writers share of all original music used in/written for the film (the actual language will vary). There may be some royalties generated for online and web services - but that depends on where the film is upped to/streamed from. It all comes down to whether or not that service has a contract with your PRO. And with certain services (free, non-profit), there may be no royalties; you have to check with your PRO on that.

In terms of licensing your music to a game - I am not sure what you mean by "bonus". Do you mean _performance royalties?_ There are almost never performance royalties generated from music in games, as the music is almost never broadcast anywhere. I am sure there are exceptions, which is why you want your gaming contract to say the same as above, but you shouldn't count on any royalties after the fact - especially if it is an indie or mid-level game.

Good luck!


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## FredrikJonasson (Aug 18, 2015)

Thank you for your answers and for bearing with me,

I did what I obviously should have done before posting, called my PRO (STIM). Now a new problem appears that I wasn't aware of: if I'm writing for video games *I more or less can't be a member of my PRO*. So if I turn PRO down to be able to write for games, I can't collect any royalties from films. Wow, never heard of this and it pretty much sucks.

I guess the only thing I can do is to get out of STIM, see what I write the most and then make a decision based on that. How have you dealt with this? Are royalties a big part of your income?


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## Dean (Aug 18, 2015)

FredrikJonasson said:


> Thank you for your answers and for bearing with me,
> 
> I did what I obviously should have done before posting, called my PRO (STIM). Now a new problem appears that I wasn't aware of: if I'm writing for video games *I more or less can't be a member of my PRO*. So if I turn PRO down to be able to write for games, I can't collect any royalties from films. Wow, never heard of this and it pretty much sucks.
> 
> I guess the only thing I can do is to get out of STIM, see what I write the most and then make a decision based on that. How have you dealt with this? Are royalties a big part of your income?




Thats not the case at all!..of course you can join your PRO,.it does'nt matter what projects you work on(including games.),.I work on film,tv,games,trailers,ads (as do thousands of composers all over the globe.)..it is your right to join STIM (or another PRO if you wish.)and it is totally necessary for collecting royalties from future projects.
(I think the person probably meant that there are no royalties from games as of yet so theres no point in joining for that reason and then there was a miscommunication?) D


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## Dean (Aug 18, 2015)

Hey, I also think that you're way over thinking all this royalty stuff/PRO's etc,..its no that big a deal just join up then take it from there,forget the whole games and royalties thing,..its more important to get your foot in the door and start composing then you can worry about all this stuff.It takes a year or so before your royalties will come through (if any at all) so yoy have plenty of time to worry about that later,..just crack on with the music for now. 

Also royalties come from the broadcasters(tv/radio stations) and not the client that is hiring you so they dont care at all if youre a member of a PRO or not. D


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## FredrikJonasson (Aug 18, 2015)

If it weren't for this sudden nothing or all dilemma, I would completely agree with you Dean 

The person I spoke with (who was supposed to be the expert on games) on STIM actually said just that, that probably game companies doesn't "allow" membership since it would mean problems for them. The more I thought about it the less sense it made. First I figured that the agreements are different for different PROs, but I believe I found the solution on their page. To simply fill in a form that disables STIM's right to collect.

While typing I managed to get in touch with STIM again. There had been some misunderstanding as expected. However the form I mentioned only takes into consideration the use of the music in the actual game. Not if the music was to be, let's say, performed somewhere. If the company wants that right too, I can't be a member of my PRO. 

Is it very uncommon that developers and publishers asks for the FULL rights? That would obviously be a huge problem and one that I've never heard about. 

Reason why I'm a bit panicked is that I'm right in the process of negotiating with companies and feel I don't know what the routine is. Or what the rules are..


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## Daryl (Aug 18, 2015)

Of course you can be a member of a PRO. They are talking bollocks. Never mind that, it would be illegal under EU law to tell you that you can't. If the music is performed in a public venue, you would collect the Writer's share of the Royalties and the Publisher would collect the Publisher's share. If the game company is also the music Publisher, they collect. If they are not, they can't collect anything.

D


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## Dean (Aug 18, 2015)

Frederick, you still have some cross wires there,..you 'can' and 'must' join a PRO no matter what project you work on (It is totally irrelevant what the company wants,..You need to join your PRO for everything you plan to work on for the rest of your life and not just this game project,..just join your PRO asap.
I think the misunderstanding you have now is about the mention of signing away 'all' your rights,absolutely everything,..that is something that you and the client cannot do and your PRO wants to protect your rights,.(from their point of view,..if you decide to sign away everything (publishers share/writers share/all royalties/mechanicals etc) then they have nothing to represent you with,..anyway AFAIK its not allowed you will always have your percentage of the writers share(even if there are no royalties at all and this is a total buy-out) D


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## Dean (Aug 18, 2015)

I think the confusion is in the mention of 'total buy-out' ,'100%' etc,..but that just relates to the publishing side,so they're free to do whatever they want with the game (and your music) but you will always have your writers share of the royalties thats by law (game or no game!)

This what I mean by over thinking the situation,..the first thing you need do is stop trying to work out all the angles and sign up to your PRO and forget this game / rights thing for the moment,..making your deal with the client has absolutely nothing to do with you and your PRO! I cant be any clearer,.sign up!  D


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## FredrikJonasson (Aug 18, 2015)

Yes it seems that it's actually illegal. I certainly didn't have my share of luck when dealing with this matter. In fact, prior to all this, another game developer asked me if I was a member of STIM. Simply put, I couldn't work with them because of it. 

I gladly corrected him on that point.


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## FredrikJonasson (Aug 18, 2015)

Haha, that's great Dean 

I signed up with my PRO years ago. Basically, a clumsy misunderstanding with STIM in combination with the developer I mentioned in my latest post made it look like it was impossible. You have been clear and I have most things figured out.

One last word on publishers/writers share. Is that typically a 50/50 split? STIM said something about the publishers share being 1/3 and writer 2/3.

EDIT: And one more thing actually, this procedure of filling out a form to disable STIMS rights to collect for use in the actual game, is that a general rule when dealing with games or did I misinterpret that?


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## Dean (Aug 18, 2015)

The publishers share is usually 100% with the publisher,..the writers share starts at 50/50 and can be negotiated,..If you get a very low upfront fee (or none) you could negotiate the back end by getting more royalties 70/30 etc.

re 'Disabling STIMS rights': Im pretty sure you misrepresented that or you're getting the worst advice Ive ever heard?  I think youre going around in circles big time,..over complicating it. Most PROs are passive agencies,meaning they only process the royalties they receive from broadcasters(tv/film/radio etc,) They are not going to contact the games company hassling them for money just because you registered the game with them,..it doesnt work that way.
On the very rare occasion the game (with your music.) is used or broadcast on Tv/radio then they will receive any royalties from the broadcaster then they will see that your name and details are linked to that project (because you registered it) then they will see what royalties you are owed (if any).ALL of this has absolutely nothing to do with the games client which brings us right back to the very start.

D


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## FredrikJonasson (Aug 18, 2015)

So simply put; for the general project, be it game or anything else, I'll rarely have to sign anything concerning this at all?

Who's the other half of the writer's share, the game developer?


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## Dean (Aug 18, 2015)

FredrikJonasson said:


> So simply put; for the general project, be it game or anything else, I'll rarely have to sign anything concerning this at all?
> 
> Who's the other half of the writer's share, the game developer?



Yes.

The publisher.

D


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## mwarsell (Aug 19, 2015)

Speaking of a similar situation, there exists a music site where companies who need custom music make a "contest" and the winner gets a few bucks. After winning two contests and pocketing $1200 the admin at this site told me that they had found out that I was in the local PRO and told me that I can no longer participate in the contests. So I quit using the service rather than quitting my PRO membership.


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## JohnG (Aug 22, 2015)

Dean said:


> The publishers share is usually 100% with the publisher,..the writers share starts at 50/50 and can be negotiated,..If you get a very low upfront fee (or none) you could negotiate the back end by getting more royalties 70/30 etc.



That is wrong. The writer's share is 100% for the composer. It is the publisher's share that is negotiable, not the writer's share.


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## FredrikJonasson (Aug 23, 2015)

I hope that's true, very unfortunate naming otherwise.


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## Dean (Aug 23, 2015)

JohnG said:


> That is wrong. The writer's share is 100% for the composer. It is the publisher's share that is negotiable, not the writer's share.



You're right,I crossed my own wires there.D


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