# Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds Diamond is now available



## EastWest Lurker (Jul 25, 2012)

Gold in a couple of weeks, demos coming soon.
http://www.soundsonline.com/Hollywood-O ... -Woodwinds


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## Hanu_H (Jul 25, 2012)

*Re: Hollywood Orchestral WoodwindsPlatinum is now available*

Whats the point of releasing a library without any demos or videos? I think EW should get their act together and fast...If you compare it to the, lets say BWW, they have lots of videos and some audio demos already and they are only in the pre-order state.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 25, 2012)

*Re: Hollywood Orchestral WoodwindsPlatinum is now available*



Hanu_H @ Wed Jul 25 said:


> Whats the point of releasing a library without any demos or videos? I think EW should get their act together and fast...If you compare it to the, lets say BWW, they have lots of videos and some audio demos already and they are only in the pre-order state.



I hear you, but there are people who will order it based on how much they like HS and HB, If you are not one, that is fair enough.


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## Ganvai (Jul 25, 2012)

*Re: Hollywood Orchestral WoodwindsPlatinum is now available*

Looks like someone wanted to start befor others could run away.

Very strange to release a lib without demos. 

I don't have any Hollywood-Lib from East West, but didn't Thomas Bergersen, Nick Phoenix and Doug Rogers work on it? Why are they missing now? Don't they like Woodwinds? Okay, Shawn Murphy is awesome in what he's doing and i bet he could make this alone, but i'm wondering why there is no word about the others.

And there is nothing to hear!!!

Strange, especially for East West, the "mega-pros" in promoting a new lib.

Seems a little bit hasty.


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## Hanu_H (Jul 25, 2012)

*Re: Hollywood Orchestral WoodwindsPlatinum is now available*



EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jul 25 said:


> I hear you, but there are people who will order it based on how much they like HS and HB, If you are not one, that is fair enough.


Yeah sure, no offense. I just think EW is still a great company, there's just something weird going on...


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 25, 2012)

*Re: Hollywood Orchestral WoodwindsPlatinum is now available*



Ganvai @ Wed Jul 25 said:


> Looks like someone wanted to start befor others could run away.
> 
> Very strange to release a lib without demos.
> 
> ...



This release date was announced some time ago and I think EW thought it was important to meet it.


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## paulcole (Jul 25, 2012)

*Re: Hollywood Orchestral WoodwindsPlatinum is now available*



EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jul 25 said:


> Hanu_H @ Wed Jul 25 said:
> 
> 
> > Whats the point of releasing a library without any demos or videos? I think EW should get their act together and fast...If you compare it to the, lets say BWW, they have lots of videos and some audio demos already and they are only in the pre-order state.
> ...




Jay, how is anyone going to buy this based on brass and strings? :lol:


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 25, 2012)

*Re: Hollywood Orchestral WoodwindsPlatinum is now available*



paulcole @ Wed Jul 25 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jul 25 said:
> 
> 
> > Hanu_H @ Wed Jul 25 said:
> ...



Same engineer, same recording studio, same company with 25 years of sample library releases. That is enough for some people, but not for some others and I have no problem with that personally.


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## Ganvai (Jul 25, 2012)

*Re: Hollywood Orchestral WoodwindsPlatinum is now available*



EastWest Lurker @ 25th July 2012 said:


> This release date was announced some time ago and I think EW thought it was important to meet it.



If you see a release-date coming, you can hire some composers to make demos.

It must have been playable before the release-date or I don't want to know how long the bug-list-report will be 

And even if you own strings and brass, I don't think just only a few people are so incredible rich that they buy this instrument without listening to it before.

I even never saw a preview in press or something like that. There was the announce of the release-date, then silence, then release.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 25, 2012)

*Re: Hollywood Orchestral WoodwindsPlatinum is now available*



Ganvai @ Wed Jul 25 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ 25th July 2012 said:
> 
> 
> > This release date was announced some time ago and I think EW thought it was important to meet it.
> ...



It isn't a matter of rich. Some people, if they love what a developer has done in the past, will order on faith. Others will not. I have no dog in the hunt with either attitude so I am not going to argue with people over it.


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## Ganvai (Jul 25, 2012)

*Re: Hollywood Orchestral WoodwindsPlatinum is now available*



EastWest Lurker @ 25th July 2012 said:


> It isn't a matter of rich. Some people, if they love what a developer has done in the past, will order on faith. Others will not. I have no dog in the hunt with either attitude so I am not going to argue with people over it.



Didn't want to argue. I totally understand what you mean and it's okay for me. 

But this lack of information about a library I've never seen before, so I'm wondering why this happens now (as I said before) espacially why this happens East West. They promotion was, most of the times, so powerfull, it just became anoying and now you have the other extreme.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 25, 2012)

*Re: Hollywood Orchestral WoodwindsPlatinum is now available*



Ganvai @ Wed Jul 25 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ 25th July 2012 said:
> 
> 
> > It isn't a matter of rich. Some people, if they love what a developer has done in the past, will order on faith. Others will not. I have no dog in the hunt with either attitude so I am not going to argue with people over it.
> ...



I don't know, those decisions are above my pay grade


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## Ganvai (Jul 25, 2012)

*Re: Hollywood Orchestral WoodwindsPlatinum is now available*

So there are two options left:

First: You can ask.
Second: You can raise your pay-grade.

I know what would be my choice :lol: 

*Just kidding, not meant it badly*


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## Dan Mott (Jul 25, 2012)

Guys. Have EW ever released Demos before final release as of late? No. I don't know what you were expecting.

Also, I think it wouldn't be wise to decide without demos. As far as I'm concerned, there's a possibly you won't like it.


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## Casey Edwards (Jul 25, 2012)

Dan-Jay @ Wed Jul 25 said:


> Guys. Have EW ever released Demos before final release as of late? No. I don't know what you were expecting.
> 
> Also, I think it wouldn't be wise to decide without demos. As far as I'm concerned, there's a possibly you won't like it.



There may have not been demos, but as far as I can remember there were at least tech videos going through patches. I could care less about pre-order and all the hype around any library. So this doesn't affect me at all, however, videos and demos are a selling point for me(more so tech walk-throughs). NOT reputation.


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## jamwerks (Jul 25, 2012)

Come on EW Lurker,

Fire the thing up, and do us a walkthrough.
Zero production time needed

o[])


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 25, 2012)

jamwerks @ Wed Jul 25 said:


> Come on EW Lurker,
> 
> Fire the thing up, and do us a walkthrough.
> Zero production time needed
> ...



Been there, done that, ain't gonna go there again, not with this crowd. Its like throwing chum in the ocean, too many sharks. :mrgreen:


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## Ganvai (Jul 25, 2012)

@ Jay: I totally understand what you mean.

Let us come to the interessting questions and away from OT.

Do you know when there will be demos and tech-videos released for woodwinds?


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 25, 2012)

Ganvai @ Wed Jul 25 said:


> @ Jay: I totally understand what you mean.
> 
> Let us come to the interessting questions and away from OT.
> 
> Do you know when there will be demos and tech-videos released for woodwinds?



All I have been told is "soon".


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## paulcole (Jul 25, 2012)

Jay, can you do two demos. One for the rich and one for the poor?


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 25, 2012)

paulcole @ Wed Jul 25 said:


> Jay, can you do two demos. On e for the rich and one for the poor?



I have no idea what that means. Paul, if all you have to contribute is to try and take clever (and I use the term loosely) shots at EW, it really helps no one.

@ choco: Always the class clown, eh?


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## choc0thrax (Jul 25, 2012)

Wasn't there an official announcement that John Cage had been hired to create all demos? What happened with that?


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## Ganvai (Jul 25, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ 25th July 2012 said:


> All I have been told is "soon".



Really? Guess what's up. 

Someone with a higher pay-grade doesn't like you and wants to see you swimming in the vi-control-shark-waters


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## jamwerks (Jul 25, 2012)

choc0thrax @ Wed Jul 25 said:


> Wasn't there an official announcement that John Cage had been hired to create all demos?



:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 25, 2012)

Ganvai @ Wed Jul 25 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ 25th July 2012 said:
> 
> 
> > All I have been told is "soon".
> ...



:lol: 

Believe me, as soon as I know more guys, I will pass it on.


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## playz123 (Jul 25, 2012)

*Re: Hollywood Orchestral WoodwindsPlatinum is now available*



EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jul 25 said:


> This release date was announced some time ago and I think EW thought it was important to meet it.
> 
> AND
> 
> It isn't a matter of rich. Some people, if they love what a developer has done in the past, will order on faith. Others will not. I have no dog in the hunt with either attitude so I am not going to argue with people over it.



I have no problems with that either. It's obvious from the EW forum posts that many people are buying on faith and are very excited about the release, so I'm not going to 'rain on anyone's parade' and neither is Jay. Personally, I'd never purchase a major library without having all the information I required, but that should not reflect any negativity towards EW or any other company. I think walk-throughs are also more helpful than enhanced compositions when assessing a product, so hopefully that type of thing will also be provided by EW at some point in the future. In the meantime, for those who purchased HOW, hope you enjoy your purchase and do post your impressions.


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## Rob Elliott (Jul 25, 2012)

Agreed on the walk-through. Save your money - keep the price low and just play 20 secs of each instrument - various articulations. That is ALWAYS all I ever need to access and part with my hard earned cash. 

Sadly - I realize within just a few minutes if a purchase was good or bad by walking through here. Oh yea, 'if' I had time and/or desire I could program my way through various libraries' weaknessess......but, really have neither. :wink:


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## paulcole (Jul 25, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jul 25 said:


> paulcole @ Wed Jul 25 said:
> 
> 
> > Jay, can you do two demos. On e for the rich and one for the poor?
> ...




I'm certainly not taking a shot at them at all. I have none of their products and have never been on their site in my life. I was hoping this library would come in at a wishful thinking low price because I can't afford BWW. I see it's even more expensive so tht's taht.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 25, 2012)

paulcole @ Wed Jul 25 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jul 25 said:
> 
> 
> > paulcole @ Wed Jul 25 said:
> ...



Well, Gold will be considerably less, if you read the link.


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## bryla (Jul 25, 2012)

*Re: Hollywood Orchestral WoodwindsPlatinum is now available*



Ganvai @ Wed Jul 25 said:


> didn't Thomas Bergersen, Nick Phoenix and Doug Rogers work on it? Why are they missing now?


Wow, that really IS strange.


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## nikolas (Jul 25, 2012)

LOL!

There we go again... 

I'll stay out of this, but I'll just mention that when I saw the link, I jumped straight ahead because I was in need for some nice music. Well... I'll wait for soon to come by...


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## radec (Jul 25, 2012)

*Re: Hollywood Orchestral WoodwindsPlatinum is now available*



EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jul 25 said:


> It isn't a matter of rich. Some people, if they love what a developer has done in the past, will order on faith.


i would like to order on faith, but Jay can ya please confirm the developers who were involved in HB and HS (other than Shawn Murphy).

basically, can you ask your bosses:
a) was Nick P involved
b) was Thomas J B involved
c) was Doug involved?

we are being asked to buy on faith based on the past products, HB and HS and i would just like to be told how much of the team of HOW was involved in HB/HS. thanks!


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## Ryan (Jul 25, 2012)

I'm drinking my milk while watching this topic grow into a long discussion about missing vids, demos, tech walks and the most crazy thing... ...missing people!!


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 25, 2012)

*Re: Hollywood Orchestral WoodwindsPlatinum is now available*



radec @ Wed Jul 25 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jul 25 said:
> 
> 
> > It isn't a matter of rich. Some people, if they love what a developer has done in the past, will order on faith.
> ...



OK, I asked and this is the response from EW: "Demos will be available in the next week so potential buyers can make an informed decision. The pre-order discount has been extended accordingly."


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## José Herring (Jul 25, 2012)

Ryan @ Wed Jul 25 said:


> I'm drinking my milk while watching this topic grow into a long discussion about missing vids, demos, tech walks and the most crazy thing... ...missing people!!



I've put up flyers.

[schild=random fontcolor=DC143C shadowcolor=C0C0C0 shieldshadow=1] Missing Persons. Persons previously involved in the most ambitious sampling project ever are now MIA.[/schild]


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## Ryan (Jul 25, 2012)

josejherring @ 25/7/2012 said:


> Ryan @ Wed Jul 25 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm drinking my milk while watching this topic grow into a long discussion about missing vids, demos, tech walks and the most crazy thing... ...missing people!!
> ...



ohh, there's flyer's available too. I'm gonna stick some of those around town here in Oslo, Norway. Maybe Thomas sees one of them if he's around here on a vacation (even so, I think he would be in Trondheim).


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 25, 2012)

I must confess, following Nick's harsh words for EW's NFR policy for those doing official demos (they cannot use the libs in commercial projects), I'll be intrigued as to who actually does next week's track.


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## jamwerks (Jul 25, 2012)

Well it's pretty well know that Nick and Thomas are out of the picture now. But since HOW was apparently recorded 18 months ago, it would seem that they were in at that time. A glance at the articulation list, looks like something coming from the same team as HS & HB. The fact that HOW is getting to us about 6 months after the declared launch date, could be interpreted that N & T's editing had to be redone after their split.

N & T are undoubtedly getting their negotiated cut in HOW, but a 6-12 month silence is undoubtedly in the contract.

Separations happen all the time in the corporate world, so nothing new here. But is there nobody with any savy or authority now at EW to do a walk-through? This is the fact that puzzles me. There is no or minimal production time needed to make one. 2 weeks ago EW said "demos at launch time", now it's "next week".

There are certainly reasons for this apparent confusion, but it kind of resembles what happens before a ship sinks. Nothing (or close to it) that EW declares ever really happens, which totally disqualifies anything that they say.

Us users need product updates, Play updates, and thus a strong and dedicated EW team. Hoping for the best here (owning HS, HB & now HOW).

I have a feeling that N & T left because of lack of EW dedication (money) to develop Play, but that's just me.


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## José Herring (Jul 25, 2012)

Well jamwerks we all know that.

I'm just poking fun mostly because right now it doesn't seem like they can poke back!!

In all honestly I wish them all the best and I hope Nick and TJ consider, after the dust settles, to continue with their great collaboration. Perhaps on future orchestral libraries since Doug has made it clear over at EW that he has little interest in doing anything else in the area.


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## Benji (Jul 25, 2012)

If I understand well, 

Nick P. And Thomas J. B. left EWQL?! Which also means no HOW tech video starting with "Hi this is Nick Phoenix"...

And if you're making an official demo you're not allowed to use the library as a professional tool afterwards?


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## bryla (Jul 25, 2012)

*Re: Hollywood Orchestral WoodwindsPlatinum is now available*



EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jul 25 said:


> radec @ Wed Jul 25 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jul 25 said:
> ...


What question did you ask to get that kind of an answer?


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 25, 2012)

*Re: Hollywood Orchestral WoodwindsPlatinum is now available*



bryla @ Wed Jul 25 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jul 25 said:
> 
> 
> > radec @ Wed Jul 25 said:
> ...



I asked if they wanted to comment on what is quoted above that radec asked me to ask them.


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## bryla (Jul 25, 2012)

wow...


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## Ed (Jul 25, 2012)

*Re: Hollywood Orchestral WoodwindsPlatinum is now available*



EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jul 25 said:


> radec @ Wed Jul 25 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Wed Jul 25 said:
> ...



I love how the answer relates to none of those questions at all lolololo


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## germancomponist (Jul 25, 2012)

I am at first interseted to the audio results. Can`t wait for the first demos! BTW: I never ever would buy a lib before I have had a listen to....... .


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## Theseus (Jul 25, 2012)

Come on people, give EW a break. They parted with the only two persons from their team that knew how to make a library that doesn't sound like the Beatles, they drafted a new NFR policy that prevent any composer from giving a shot at demos, and I just learned that Philippe Starck refused to design the retail box for Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds :lol: 

And I'm pretty sure that Play pro is just around the corner. Be patient.


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## Peter Alexander (Jul 25, 2012)

Hollywoodwinds is Cinesamples.


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## mark812 (Jul 25, 2012)

germancomponist @ Wed Jul 25 said:


> BTW: I never ever would buy a lib before I have had a listen to....... .



I really don't know why anyone would..


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 25, 2012)

mark812 @ Wed Jul 25 said:


> germancomponist @ Wed Jul 25 said:
> 
> 
> > BTW: I never ever would buy a lib before I have had a listen to....... .
> ...



In all candor, neither would I. And yet, people do.


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## Jerome Vonhogen (Jul 25, 2012)

Hi guys,

After reading all posts of this thread, I must say that there are some things in this discussion that bother me. I think its unfair to blame East West for the lack of demos so far, and to criticize their business decisions regarding the release of HOW. After all, they did extend the pre-order discount, didn't they?

I have been part of East West's test-team since the release of Symphonic Choirs, and I can honestly say that I have never seen a more enthusiastic, positive and dedicated group of people, working tirelessly to meet the high expectations of their customers. It really hurts to read all the gossip and negativity, especially since I have a totally different experience with East West.

Most of the people who work for East West are not active members of this forum, so they're not here to defend themselves, or to explain EW's policy on a daily basis. I'm not gonna do that either, since I'm not an East West employee, and I have a non-disclosure agreement that I have to respect. I'm just a fellow composer who happens to be involved in the release of HOW; who strongly feels that the negativity is unfair to those involved, and who sincerely hopes that the Hollywood gossip surrounding East West will end soon.

I do want to say this, though: if anyone wants to blame East West for the fact that the demos aren't ready yet, or for other possible hiccups during the final test phase of this release, then please consider blaming people like me instead of East West. Writing demos while meticulously testing and scrutinizing the library is not an easy thing to do, and there are always last-minute issues and adjustments that will totally ruin your work flow, making it particularly difficult to predict when demos will be ready. So if I, for instance, would tell East West that my demo will most likely be ready by tomorrow, then all they can do, really, is to trust that my estimate is accurate, and then make their official announcements accordingly.

There are many people involved in a big release like this, and as far as I can tell, everyone at East West is working around the clock to get the product shipped to those who pre-ordered. They can't, however, control the work flow of every individual demo maker. It's like the post-production of movies: until the product/film is ready, scoring is basically a waste of time, so it's usually a last minute job, and I guess the same goes for making 'technical walk-through' videos.

To end on a positive note, I can tell you from my own experience that Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds sounds truly amazing!!! For me, it's the missing link in my orchestral palette, and it's a real joy and privilege to work with these wonderful instruments!! In fact, HOW has already changed my approach to writing for orchestra. These woodwinds are so realistic and blend so well with HS & HB, that I'm quite sure I will give woodwind instruments a lot more attention in my pieces from now on!

- Jerome Vonhögen 

P.s. By the way, I want to make it perfectly clear that I was not asked by anyone to post in this thread, nor did I discuss this beforehand with people connected to East West, Quantum Leap, etc. It just reflects my own personal view and opinion. Heck, I don't even know who that Jay "Lurking-in-the-Woods" Asher is! :roll:


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## radec (Jul 25, 2012)

personally i wasnt criticising anything - dont think most people are. 

my issue is with no demos or walkthrus or videos the only reason to buy at this moment is because its 'made by the expert team that brought me HS and HB'. however the ewql guys have specifically failed to mention three major players of the team and are purposefully dodging the question (see their answer to jay). if they wont confirm its the same team that made HS/HB and theres no audio to hear, what incentive do i have here to buy?

its kinda boggling my mind as to the reason its been released with no walkthru or demos. releasing unprepared just to hit a date is kinda pointless if no one has a reason to buy. as said, most sane people wouldn't buy a library without hearing anything and i dont agree with jays assertion they do. if theres a library people have jumped all over that has been released with no demos, id love to hear what it was?

i own HS and HB so i have no doubt that if the same team are behind it, it will sound as good as you make it sound, jerome. unfortunately no one is confirming it is


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## NYC Composer (Jul 25, 2012)

It seems to me that anyone interested in buying a comprehensive woodwind library would be willing to wait a few extra weeks to hear all of the competitive entries. Obviously, EW wanted to throw their hat in the ring as quickly as possible, given the churn created by competing companies (I was intrigued by the 8dio snippet of oboe, which I suspect is quite a ways from completion but illustrates the above mentioned churn). Anyway, I'm not sure I understand all the sturm und drang. The demos will be released forthwith, I'm sure.


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## Hanu_H (Jul 26, 2012)

Jerome Vonhogen @ Thu Jul 26 said:


> and who sincerely hopes that the Hollywood gossip surrounding East West will end soon.


+1 to that. But it's the EW who is pissing on their own shoes so to say. They should just officially announce whats going on with the people involved and everyone can then shut up and wait for the demos. If the team is totally different from the HS/HB then I think customers have a right to know it before they make a decision and they can't just ignore the question. That kind of behaviour only provokes this kind of talking.


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## handz (Jul 26, 2012)

Sorry but this looks really clumsy, from nothing there came announcement that lib will be released 23th july, no demos, no tech walktroughs, not even tiny little bit of some basic sound sample. 
I would say EW have enough self-confidence that they no need to hurry something up as this, there are other two WW libs coming OK.. but I believe people buying those things not buy something oly because it is out first.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 26, 2012)

OK, this is not official from EW, just my personal guess. I think they probably believe, as I do, that we are dealing with a generation of users who have a hard time with the concept of "delay of gratification".

So by releasing it when they said even without demos up, it might make at least _some_ potential buyers not pull out the credit card for a competitive product until they hear the HOW demos, based on the excellence of HS and HB. And if it does that, along with giving those who will buy it on faith the chance, then it is smart business.

But this is pure speculation on my part, nothing I have been told. Believe it or not, they do not ask my opinion on stuff like this


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## Jerome Vonhogen (Jul 26, 2012)

Jay, you're not making sense at all.

You could as well have said that EW's strategy is based entirely on the Mayan Calendar, to reassure those pre-ordering customers who couldn't wait for the demos because of the 2012 Doomsday Prophecy. :wink: 

July 23 2012 is just a date, as is December 21, 2012.
It just means that the product is ready to be shipped to those who pre-ordered.

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## playz123 (Jul 26, 2012)

Jerome Vonhogen @ Thu Jul 26 said:


> Jay, you're not making sense at all.
> - Jerome Vonhögen



Makes "sense" to me!  Jay's guess is as good as the other ones that I've read.


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## Jerome Vonhogen (Jul 26, 2012)

playz123 @ Thu Jul 26 said:


> Makes "sense" to me!  Jay's guess is as good as the other ones that I've read.



So what you are saying, Frank, is that the Mayans could be right after all? O dear, then I might live in a flood zone right now, I'd better move to higher grounds before it's too late!

How about Canada, is Canada safe?
:wink: 

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 26, 2012)

Jerome Vonhogen @ Thu Jul 26 said:


> playz123 @ Thu Jul 26 said:
> 
> 
> > Makes "sense" to me!  Jay's guess is as good as the other ones that I've read.
> ...



You'e in the Netherlands? I would worry about the dikes more


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## Jerome Vonhogen (Jul 26, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jul 26 said:


> You'e in the Netherlands? I would worry about the dikes more



Thanks Jay, but don't worry, I got that under control.
And I can still use my other nine fingers to play the piano! :wink: 

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 26, 2012)

Jerome Vonhogen @ Thu Jul 26 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jul 26 said:
> 
> 
> > You'e in the Netherlands? I would worry about the dikes more
> ...



That is hilarious, Jerome :lol:


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## handz (Jul 30, 2012)

Psst, there are two demos up on the site....


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## José Herring (Jul 30, 2012)

Antonio's demo sounds great. Will listen to the birdsall demo tomorrow.


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## handz (Jul 30, 2012)

Richards demo is great as all of his ewql demos!


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 30, 2012)

We have uploaded 2 links to Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds demos just completed, more soon, and hopefully a video tomorrow. Click this and then the Demos tab.

http://www.soundsonline.com/Hollywood-O ... -Woodwinds


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## Rob Elliott (Jul 30, 2012)

Walkthroughs PLEASE.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 30, 2012)

Antongiulio used all Hollywood Series instruments for his demo "Woodart Morewoods".

This is a note from Richard Birdsall about his demo "The Seance" ...

"In this demo, there are a few moments where it might sound like pre-recorded effects or phrases were used, but they were done with the Legato Slur patches. I was really impressed with this as I wouldn’t have been able to do it with any other libraries. Apart from a flutter tongue flute patch, Legato Slurs are all that were needed. All dynamic changes where controlled with the mod wheel. Other instruments were from From Hollywood Strings (legato slurs, tremolos and violin harmonics), Hollywood Brass, and Symphonic Orchestra (harp and percussion). Reverb was SPACES (Sth Cal Hall Woodwinds and Strings programs)."


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## james7275 (Jul 30, 2012)

Really liked Richard's demo, especially that planet of the apes sounding part!

The Woodwinds sound really good and so does Hollywood strings!


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## choc0thrax (Jul 30, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jul 30 said:


> We have uploaded 2 links to Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds demos just completed, more soon, and hopefully a video tomorrow.
> 
> World except Europe (select Demos tab) -
> 
> ...



Maybe it's just me, but I find these woodwinds to have a very page not found timbre.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 30, 2012)

choc0thrax @ Mon Jul 30 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jul 30 said:
> 
> 
> > We have uploaded 2 links to Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds demos just completed, more soon, and hopefully a video tomorrow.
> ...



I also found them elusive. Spare. They blend well.


----------



## NYC Composer (Jul 30, 2012)

choc0thrax @ Mon Jul 30 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jul 30 said:
> 
> 
> > We have uploaded 2 links to Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds demos just completed, more soon, and hopefully a video tomorrow.
> ...



I also found them elusive. Spare. They blend well.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Jul 30, 2012)

Try this then and click the demos tab:
http://www.soundsonline.com/Hollywood-O ... -Woodwinds


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## Dominik Raab (Jul 30, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon 30 Jul said:


> Try this then and click the demos tab:
> http://www.soundsonline.com/Hollywood-O ... -Woodwinds



Jay,
when you copied the original announcement on soundsonline-forums.com (at least I think you did ), you copied the shortened link the forum software displays in order to save space. The "..." part you see is also inside the URL tag, that's why it doesn't work. You might want to edit your post to avoid confusion.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Jul 30, 2012)

Dominik Raab @ Mon Jul 30 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon 30 Jul said:
> 
> 
> > Try this then and click the demos tab:
> ...



Thanks Dom, I think it is sorted now.


----------



## Dominik Raab (Jul 30, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon 30 Jul said:


> Dominik Raab @ Mon Jul 30 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Mon 30 Jul said:
> ...



Always happy to help, Jay.

Back to topic: I especially like the second demo; those short notes sound great. Very well-defined. I'm looking forward to hearing the patches in isolation.


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## Vlzmusic (Jul 30, 2012)

Judging by these demos, its like an improved EWQLSO. BTW this is exactly what I feel about HS gold after working with it for a few weeks now. Seems like Hollywood series is right at home covering big, orchestral, somewhat "distant" sound that EWQLSO once provided without the playing ability.
I cannot find the reason behind the idea once stated by EW: - "EWQLSO is still relevant, cause it sounds completely different." 
At least regarding the strings I own and use already. Its rather a replacement than addition.


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## jamwerks (Jul 31, 2012)

Sounds great! I imagine both of those use all the Hollywood stuff. Sounds very cohesive and in the same space.


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## paulcole (Jul 31, 2012)

The Seance is a nice track and shows off the winds well.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 31, 2012)

Vlzmusic @ Mon Jul 30 said:


> Judging by these demos, its like an improved EWQLSO. BTW this is exactly what I feel about HS gold after working with it for a few weeks now. Seems like Hollywood series is right at home covering big, orchestral, somewhat "distant" sound that EWQLSO once provided without the playing ability.
> I cannot find the reason behind the idea once stated by EW: - "EWQLSO is still relevant, cause it sounds completely different."
> At least regarding the strings I own and use already. Its rather a replacement than addition.



EWQLSO was recorded in a different space by an engineer who specialized in recording classical orchestras, so they do sound significantly different IMHO.


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## Dominik Raab (Jul 31, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue 31 Jul said:


> Vlzmusic @ Mon Jul 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Judging by these demos, its like an improved EWQLSO. BTW this is exactly what I feel about HS gold after working with it for a few weeks now. Seems like Hollywood series is right at home covering big, orchestral, somewhat "distant" sound that EWQLSO once provided without the playing ability.
> ...



Same opinion here.
Vlzmusic: EWQLSO is very "big". When I first tried the HS basses and celli I thought they sounded a lot less "epic" until I found out how to use reverb plugins 
EWQLSO is an out-of-the-box solution with much less possibilities for customization than HS. The latter can sound intimate or distant, big or small - reverb does the trick. I prefer the dry recordings of the Hollywood series as you can shape the sound they way you want.
The most important fact to realize when talking about the relevance of EWQLSO is the price, I guess. It's a great solution for beginners who want to start with a complete pack of useful sounds. But even after "upgrading" to Hollywood, you might want to use SO if you want a certain sound or even articulation - Pendereki, anyone?


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## LTSF (Jul 31, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> an engineer who specialized in recording classical orchestras,



Does this point make a significant difference?


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## germancomponist (Jul 31, 2012)

I like both demos.


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## guydoingmusic (Jul 31, 2012)

LTSF @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jul 31 said:
> 
> 
> > an engineer who specialized in recording classical orchestras,
> ...



Ummm.... yeah... it does actually! Different engineers set up things differently. Also, you would record Metallica a whole lot differently than you would Norah Jones. Even though they both have guitars, drums, bass... Processed completely differently! 

so... yeah! ~o) 

Brad


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## guydoingmusic (Jul 31, 2012)

Really impressed with both demos! The depth of "The Seance" is really nice!

Jay, is there a way to know what mic positions are being used in the demo?

Brad


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## DavidAdeyemi (Jul 31, 2012)

I am _extremely_ confident in the quality of work EastWest produce...even so that I bought before even listening to the demos. I do not care so much about the realism of the demos posted, although some can be very good-I care about what these libraries are capable of producing when orchestrated and mixed correctly in *my* hands....

I think other composers should think the same. We all have different influences. Different abilities where style is concerned. Different sources of inspiration-which all inevitably have an impact on what notes we choose to write in a score. I have many libraries. Hollywood Strings and Brass in my opinion are some of the best sample libraries ever created. Because I have these two I have been waiting quite awhile for this.

I doubt we will be disappointed. I will let you all know how I get on.

Dave


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## Ed (Jul 31, 2012)

LTSF @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jul 31 said:
> 
> 
> > an engineer who specialized in recording classical orchestras,
> ...



I think so, not all sound engineers sound the same. Murphy is very experienced in recording film soundtracks.



---

Why are these demos wavs???? provide streaming MP3s jeeeezzzzz, I can listen to a Thomas Newman soundtrack on YT at 360p and still realise how great it all sounds. A 24 bit wav file isnt going to change my mind that much


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## adg21 (Jul 31, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> Try this then and click the demos tab:
> http://www.soundsonline.com/Hollywood-O ... -Woodwinds



Slightly irritating EastWest make you download their demos (and RAR them), what's wrong with streaming? I nearly didn't bother...


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## Igor (Jul 31, 2012)

Well, like most EastWest demos, it sounds wonderful. Unfortunately the winds are too often buried underneath the also-wonderful-sounding strings and brass. What I'd really love is a video demo of legato, similar to the way Berlin WW did it. I think that'd be very informative to anyone who's on the fence.


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## jamwerks (Jul 31, 2012)

:idea: An easy and informative video would be to simply go through these two great sounding demos and isolate the different WW instruments like the way BWW has done.


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## Ed (Jul 31, 2012)

Regarding the demos themselves, they sound nice, beautiful writing but Im not really sure if these sound better than CS or Berlin or VSL. 

There seems to be a fine margin of error here when sampling stuff like this, from okay to brilliant and Im skeptical East West have cracked it in this case. But Im sure more solo demos will come out and we'll have a better idea. And please, let us stream them, if you cant convince me with an mp3 you wont convince me with a 24 bit wav file...


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 31, 2012)

guydoingmusic @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> Really impressed with both demos! The depth of "The Seance" is really nice!
> 
> Jay, is there a way to know what mic positions are being used in the demo?
> 
> Brad



I asked about that Brad because I wanted to know as well. I was told "they used a different blend of mics that changed according to instrument and placement in the mix, and in both demos only SPACES reverb was used."

Jose 'Herring, who is a trained orchestral clarinetist, came over here yesterday and we agreed that for intimate, expressive work, the close mic with a little mid mic mixed in seemed best and for larger sectional writing, more mid with some of the close for definition.


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## Hannes_F (Jul 31, 2012)

Excellently done Antongiulio!


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 31, 2012)

Ed @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> Regarding the demos themselves, they sound nice, beautiful writing but Im not really sure if these sound better than CS or Berlin or VSL.
> 
> There seems to be a fine margin of error here when sampling stuff like this, from okay to brilliant and Im skeptical East West have cracked it in this case. But Im sure more solo demos will come out and we'll have a better idea. And please, let us stream them, if you cant convince me with an mp3 you wont convince me with a 24 bit wav file...



i can't argue that because it is subjective but two things I can say to an absolute certainty:

1. HOW is a more complete package than CineWinds or Berlin WW, at least until they expand, as is their stated intent.

2. HOW will mesh sonically more seamlessly with HS and HB than any of the others.

Neither statement should be construed as a knock by me on the other fine libraries, as that is not my intention at all,just two factual as opposed to subjective statements.


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## José Herring (Jul 31, 2012)

Ed @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> Regarding the demos themselves, they sound nice, beautiful writing but Im not really sure if these sound better than CS or Berlin or VSL.
> 
> There seems to be a fine margin of error here when sampling stuff like this, from okay to brilliant and Im skeptical East West have cracked it in this case. But Im sure more solo demos will come out and we'll have a better idea. And please, let us stream them, if you cant convince me with an mp3 you wont convince me with a 24 bit wav file...



I just heard them at Jay's studio for a bit. I can say this is my opinion so far. The close mics with a bit of mids tossed in Sounded better than VSL by far. The only advantage I think VSL will still have is the ability to switch articulations with their player. 

As far as Cinematic Winds, I don't have CW but from what I've heard of CW, HOW will win hands down.

Berlin will be killer. So far it sounds really good.

I'd love to do a solo woodwind demo for HOW. Maybe when I can afford to get it, I'll do one just to see how it does. 

But, from what I heard of HOW close mics has a really authentic sound.


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## adg21 (Jul 31, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> HOW is a more complete package than[...]Berlin WW, at least until they expand, as is their stated intent.



Are you sure about that? 

http://www.orchestraltools.com/downloads/BWW_Chart.pdf
http://www.soundsonline.com/Hollywood-O ... -Woodwinds (in articulation list)


Berlin WW has 3 flutes not 2, 2 oboes not 1, 2 clarinets not 1, 2 bassoons not 1. It also has the unique runs builder. They have different articulations. HOW has more bass instruments (alto flute, contra bassoon, bass flute and bass clarinet) whilst Berlin WW has some ensembles. I'd say they are just different.


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## Blakus (Jul 31, 2012)

From what I've heard so far (which isn't enough of HOW), BWW is my favourite at the moment. But really interested to hear a more exposed HOW demo/walkthrough. And despite BWW missing a few of the bass instruments, I could argue that BWW is more complete or at least just as complete, just different 

I do like what I've heard of HOW so far though.

EDIT: Didn't see adg21's post above. ^^ What he said!


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## Vlzmusic (Jul 31, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> EWQLSO was recorded in a different space by an engineer who specialized in recording classical orchestras, so they do sound significantly different IMHO.



Jay and Dominik

The spaces are different - the instrumentation/presentation - not really. They might sit close - but they sound like a big, cohesive, full orchestral section (I know there are divisi mics for strings, maybe they make a difference). Leaving 16 violins dry in the mix, doesn`t make them more intimate. They need those tails to sound appropriate to their action. I use Spaces - it comes out great. But its Orchestral. It totally replaces my EWQLSO. 

Its fun, but considering the effort involved in creating new series, and the possibility it might end up as the last orchestral lib from EW for the time being - it could cover a bit different ground - style wise.


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## adg21 (Jul 31, 2012)

Everyone has done HT and WT trills.
It would have been amazing if someone did HT up to 5th trills. I know there is something like that in Symphonic Sphere (which is cleverly programmed) but it's an ensemble only patch. Would be a pleasure to hear this in the next round of woodwinds...


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 31, 2012)

adg21 @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jul 31 said:
> 
> 
> > HOW is a more complete package than[...]Berlin WW, at least until they expand, as is their stated intent.
> ...



OK, that is fair enough.


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## Vision (Jul 31, 2012)

Ed @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> Regarding the demos themselves, they sound nice, beautiful writing but Im not really sure if these sound better than CS or Berlin or VSL.
> 
> There seems to be a fine margin of error here when sampling stuff like this, from okay to brilliant and Im skeptical East West have cracked it in this case. But Im sure more solo demos will come out and we'll have a better idea. And please, let us stream them, if you cant convince me with an mp3 you wont convince me with a 24 bit wav file...



I have to agree. Great orchestration on both tracks.. but based on the competition, and just the raw sound of it all, I wasn't compelled to think that this is the end all library for Woodwinds just yet. 

In fact, to say that it's more of a "complete" library than the others doesn't say much to me ATM. Certain passages sounded a little artificial to me. I'm sure it's a great library. More demos needed though.


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## muziksculp (Jul 31, 2012)

So far, HOW's two audio demos I heard are not perfect to evaluate the woodwinds due to the masking of the woods in the arrangement. Yes, the woods sound good, but I need more exposed woodwind demos to evaluate them. 

Hopefully More exposed HOW audio/video demos will be posted soon, and help in evaluating the sonic quality, and playability of the solo woods. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## radec (Jul 31, 2012)

some bits especially sounded artificial to me. kinda glad i didnt shell out just on reputation as not hearing anything (from what i can hear, its all too hidden behind the orchestra) right now i cant do with my existing winds. does fit really well with hs/hb though so maybe that might be a reason to grab it. just gonna wait a little longer and see what else pops up.


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## Casey Edwards (Jul 31, 2012)

Yeah, as much as HB wow'd me, I'm really surprised at how 'bleh' I think these HOWs sound. I can get the same thing I need and want out of my westgate WWs. I'm also really surprised that that BWW is the only library realizing the gap for intervallic tremolos. They would get my vote so far. CineWinds has a lot of character in the sound that I've heard so far. That could be very useful in a lot of ways for sure. Also that short example Colin posted the other day from 8dio has my full attention.


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## Vision (Jul 31, 2012)

josejherring @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> I just heard them at Jay's studio for a bit. I can say this is my opinion so far. The close mics with a bit of mids tossed in Sounded better than VSL by far. The only advantage I think VSL will still have is the ability to switch articulations with their player.
> 
> As far as Cinematic Winds, I don't have CW but from what I've heard of CW, HOW will win hands down.
> 
> ...



Pretty bold statement to say that HOW is better than CW hands down. Are you talking about the legato specifically? I have CW. TBH, I still think VSL is the bar in terms of woodwind legato. But CW has a decent character. Legato scripting could be better IMO. But the real strength of CW is the real time control of your articulations, and vibrato, on the fly. 

Berlin I would say is on par with VSL legato wise, better in some ways, not so much in some ways.. Maybe just different. I actively played with my VSL woodwinds template while watching the BBW videos, to compare, and came to that conclusion. Articulation wise it is better than VSL.. no question.

Again, as far as the HOW demo's are concerned, I didn't hear anything that particularly jumped out at me. But like you say, you got a chance to sit with the actual software. Just curious why you think it's "hands down", as if to say "no contest", better than CW.


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## LTSF (Jul 31, 2012)

guydoingmusic @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> LTSF @ Tue Jul 31 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jul 31 said:
> ...


 To my impression in almost all other professions the practitioners are required to be able to adapt.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 31, 2012)

LTSF @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> guydoingmusic @ Tue Jul 31 said:
> 
> 
> > LTSF @ Tue Jul 31 said:
> ...



I see. So under your theory Keith Richard should be able to play the same pieces as Segovia?


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## Dominik Raab (Jul 31, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue 31 Jul said:


> LTSF @ Tue Jul 31 said:
> 
> 
> > guydoingmusic @ Tue Jul 31 said:
> ...



I've always wanted to hear Marilyn Manson sing Adele ... :D


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## StrezovSampling (Aug 1, 2012)

Hm. I've been waiting these demos for a while - beautiful compositions, but MIDI orchestration wise - I don't think they impress me much. Doing walkthrough videos was the better idea, imo - all the competitor libraries have made something like that to show around their patches and instruments. 

From what I've heard/watched, BWW is the top-notch library on the market. Or to be precise - will be. 

EW's marketing strategy was a total failure for this product. My case - I'm an ordinary customer of their products, I have nearly all of their libraries but had LOTS of issues with the latest PLAY versions in the past. My trust in their company was shattered a lot because of that. After that they release a new product without ANY demos/videos... just a graph and lots of words about preordering. Sorry, but that's just silly. How are they going to win me? 

and they should at least have the balls to give more details on their relationships with Nick and Thomas. After all, most of the users are interested in their products and participation. (just one 'small' example - the amazing SPACES by QL. Or Stormdrum.)

Anyway, just my two cents. I know that you are no one to blame, Jay, but I expected more serious approach to their customers. Not just - OK, lets make an announcement just to keep up with the competitors. Then lets give 2 demos, which are not, again in my humble opinion, taking the best out of the software...

No offence. 

Cheers,
George.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 1, 2012)

Strezov @ Wed Aug 01 said:


> EW's marketing strategy was a total failure for this product. My case - I'm an ordinary customer of their products, I have nearly all of their libraries but had LOTS of issues with the latest PLAY versions in the past. My trust in their company was shattered a lot because of that. After that they release a new product without ANY demos/videos... just a graph and lots of words about preordering. Sorry, but that's just silly. How are they going to win me?
> 
> 
> George.



George, if 6 months from now, the sales of HOW fail to pretty much reach or exceed projections then "EW's marketing strategy was a total failure for this product" may prove to be a valid statement. If however, they do pretty much reach or exceed projection, then whether or not they "win you" your statement will be factually incorrect.

It's a big world out there, George and EW has been successfully selling to it for 25 years. Maybe, just maybe, they know what they are doing.


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## David Adeyemi (Aug 1, 2012)

Too early to prejudge (Meant as a reply here)

I think this library will be very good. In fact.....I think it will blow many others right out of the water- knowing EastWest's track record for sample quality....

But it is too early now for us to speculate. All I can say is I look forward to using it....if it really is a badass library and overwhelms my expectations with the quality, I may even post a little 'thank you' demo online......


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## jamwerks (Aug 1, 2012)

What marketing strategy ?


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 1, 2012)

jamwerks @ Wed Aug 01 said:


> What marketing strategy ?



My main songwriting collaborator, the late Paul Jabara, used to say to me, only half-jokingly, "Jay we should write a song entitled "Everybody Is An Authority On Everything".


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## Vlzmusic (Aug 1, 2012)

I am getting back to this thread few times a day, hoping to find resounding evidence to my naive believe, that the company I like so much (and have invested in its products a few pennies...) has artistic vision, not just sales estimates and figures.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 1, 2012)

Vlzmusic @ Wed Aug 01 said:


> I am getting back to this thread few times a day, hoping to find resounding evidence to my naive believe, that the company I like so much (and have invested in its products a few pennies...) has artistic vision, not just sales estimates and figures.



If they have not convinced you of that already with hollywood Strings and Hollywood Brass, it is unlikely they will with Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds. If they did, then whether or not you decide you like this particular library, you should require no further convincing that they have "artistic vision".


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## Vlzmusic (Aug 1, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 01 said:


> If they have not convinced you of that already with hollywood Strings and Hollywood Brass, it is unlikely they will with Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds. If they did, then whether or not you decide you like this particular library, you should require no further convincing that they have "artistic vision".



You are right, Jay. 

I am sorry for off-toping so much 

I should cut short in the beginning by saying that I love EW stuff, and own some, so my only grip is that they don`t make it in all sizes and colors


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## radec (Aug 1, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 01 said:


> If they have not convinced you of that already with hollywood Strings and Hollywood Brass, it is unlikely they will with Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds. If they did, then whether or not you decide you like this particular library, you should require no further convincing that they have "artistic vision".


sorry jay but till you can convince your peoples in charge to make a statement on whether the HB/HS team were involved instead of obviously dodgin the question, you really cant keep bringing it up the 'if you liked/have/were convinced/etc HB/HS argument.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 1, 2012)

radec @ Wed Aug 01 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 01 said:
> 
> 
> > If they have not convinced you of that already with hollywood Strings and Hollywood Brass, it is unlikely they will with Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds. If they did, then whether or not you decide you like this particular library, you should require no further convincing that they have "artistic vision".
> ...



Sure I can, watch me. :twisted: 

If it sounds as good as the other two, andI MHO it does, then I do not care if Rex the Wonder Dog did it.


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## germancomponist (Aug 1, 2012)

What a fun discussion here! I am with Jay!

For what reason do we buy a lib? Because we like the sound e.t.c. or because we like the people who did it?


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## radec (Aug 1, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 01 said:


> andI MHO it does, then I do not care if Rex the Wonder Dog did it.


yho doesnt count for diddly to some people when its obvious you work for the company. 

ive seen some recent threads here on the matter where other people were singled out, but did you receive HS, HB or HOW as free nfr copies? im assuming you did given your role with ew, but clarification would be great.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 1, 2012)

radec @ Wed Aug 01 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 01 said:
> 
> 
> > andI MHO it does, then I do not care if Rex the Wonder Dog did it.
> ...



Your assumption is correct. I have all the EW libraries but how many have you seen me personally say I use all the time? HS,HB, now HOW, SD2, Silk, Ra, and the Pianos.

Also, if you have been here a while, you know that over the years I have said i also use Kirk Hunter's Concert Strings and Brass, the Sonivox Orchestra, True Strike, Broadway Big Band, Sampletekkk Seven Seas Grand, Art Vista VG, and on and on, none of which are made or distributed by EW.

And I do not care if Rex the Wonder Dog did any of them. If I like, it, I like it.


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## Vlzmusic (Aug 1, 2012)

I have to add, that my concern was directed strictly to the library - I would be the last person to question current staff, their relationship or companie`s internal issues. Mentioning "artistic vision" was there only to pinpoint the fact that a huge project as it came out to the world, it could move further from symphonic/epic way of doing things, if simply to avoid being EWQLSO II.


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## Christian F. Perucchi (Aug 1, 2012)

Here you have a more comprehensive walktrough 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPCuoADqbDc&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPCuoADqbDc&amp;feature=plcp)


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## José Herring (Aug 1, 2012)

Vision @ Tue Jul 31 said:


> josejherring @ Tue Jul 31 said:
> 
> 
> > I just heard them at Jay's studio for a bit. I can say this is my opinion so far. The close mics with a bit of mids tossed in Sounded better than VSL by far. The only advantage I think VSL will still have is the ability to switch articulations with their player.
> ...



I've heard at least a dozen CW demos including the "official" CW demo and they all sound really poor. Sorry if that offends anybody but if I'm afraid to give my opinion then I lose my personal integrity. I could go down a litany of things that are poor about it, but that would be pointless.

I've personally heard HOW and I've listen to the two demos and they are much closer to what woodwinds should sound like. But, it's the close mics in HOW that really make it and I have no idea yet what hoops you have to jump through to get them to sound good in context. But if anybody is planing on getting HOW, I would recommend getting the Diamond Version, because believe me, you'll need the mic positions.

The one demo of BWW that I heard was pretty killer. That one will be hard to beat.

VSL winds are good. Planning on full woodwind section, I'd use VSL+HOW or BWW.


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## Mike Greene (Aug 1, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 01 said:


> . . . then I do not care if Rex the Wonder Dog did it.


Wait, they brought in Rex the Wonder Dog for this one??? Why didn't you say so! _<Getting out my credit card as I type this!>_


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## Craig Sharmat (Aug 1, 2012)

Mike, I am currently selling my entire "Rex the Wonder Dog" collection if interested.

bad mod! slaps own wrist.


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## mark812 (Aug 1, 2012)

HOW track I've come across:

http://soundcloud.com/jdrcomposer/holly ... -woodwinds


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 1, 2012)

Craig Sharmat @ Wed Aug 01 said:


> Mike, I am currently selling my entire "Rex the Wonder Dog" collection if interested.
> 
> bad mod! slaps own wrist.



First good laugh I've had all day


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## jamwerks (Aug 1, 2012)

Christian F. Perucchi @ Wed Aug 01 said:


> Here you have a more comprehensive walktrough
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPCuoADqbDc&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPCuoADqbDc&amp;feature=plcp)



Love it !!


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## Peter Alexander (Aug 1, 2012)

Strezov @ Wed Aug 01 said:


> and they should at least have the balls to give more details on their relationships with Nick and Thomas. After all, most of the users are interested in their products and participation. (just one 'small' example - the amazing SPACES by QL. Or Stormdrum.



It's a very difficult situation since the attorneys told both to be quiet.

Jose Herring is NOT affiliated with EW but he is a superb clarinetist (Juilliard I believe) with lots of performance credits to his name. So when he makes comments as he did in this thread, consider it a "forum review" from a creditable source with lots of MIDI mockup skills.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Aug 1, 2012)

hey! video is up!


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## Simon Ravn (Aug 1, 2012)

mark812 @ Wed Aug 01 said:


> HOW track I've come across:
> 
> http://soundcloud.com/jdrcomposer/holly ... -woodwinds



Wow - that bad? Legato sounds almost non-present. The flute in the intro sounds no better than 5-10 year old samples and it's hard for me to tell that this is with legato interval samples (if it is?). Also, air is totally missing.

The tone of the clarinet + bassoon sounds decent enough and the legato works much better on the clarinet than the flute.

The oboe sounds downright horrible - like one taken from an old Roland synth from the early 90's - sorry. Oh boy...

I was reluctant to get HWW in the first place, but this certainly helped me make a decision. I like the tone and legato of Berlin Woodwinds better, although I hear the phasing problems and some legato issues in there. But overall it seems to sound much more real and open.

I will listen to more HOW demos of course, but judging from this - only based on the legato realism and sound of the samples, certainly doesn't bode too well.


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## José Herring (Aug 2, 2012)

Simon Ravn @ Wed Aug 01 said:


> mark812 @ Wed Aug 01 said:
> 
> 
> > HOW track I've come across:
> ...



What I heard of HOW sounded much better than this. I have no idea what went wrong here.


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## Vision (Aug 2, 2012)

It sounds.. "keyboardy". Transitions are not fluid. Wow.. What happened here?


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## jamwerks (Aug 2, 2012)

I've watched the Official video. Well done by the way.

I'm a little less excited about the tone. I a/b'd between the video and the CWW one. HOW is lacking the air. In HOW, he never used the ambient mics with the others, maybe that's why (mid + ambient should be much better that mid + reverb).

I hate to say that the HOW bassoon really doesn't work imo. Seems to be an eq problem (he's using the close + mids), the attacks aren't there nor are the releases, very keyboardy, at least in that example. He probably shouldn't have been playing that line using a legato patch.

The flutes non vib-vib sounds great, as does the oboe articulations, even though overall the "air" "3 dimentioness" doesn't seem to be there.


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## noiseboyuk (Aug 2, 2012)

Simon Ravn @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> mark812 @ Wed Aug 01 said:
> 
> 
> > HOW track I've come across:
> ...



Hmm, I'd be very wary of basing any more on this tune than the tone. I remember a long thread comparing Hollywood Brass with CineBrass where the legato in HB was awful in the example. Turned out that the patches used in the demo were not even legato ones! User error...

Similarly in this demo I hear almost no dynamics in the woods at all, so it sounds flat and it doesn't feel well integrated mix-wise.


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## Bernard Quatermass (Aug 2, 2012)

Im biased because I have preordered BWW. But the tone of this so far isnt as good BWW afaic and Im sure the Kontakt method of delivery is better than the Play method. The flute tones on the HOW dont cut it with me so far, sound weak, but maybe thats because there needs to be more examples put out. BWW so far. No contest.


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## Vision (Aug 2, 2012)

No more examples needed here. This seems like a rushed product, in order to complete the HW series. And two of the key components.. Nick and Thomas, are MIA. No matter how they want to gloss over it, that's kind of a big deal. 

Not to mention.. PLAY 3 is.. hmm. I don't have a PC slave to use this library. I'm just going to assume that HOW will not run well on a Mac only platform, as HS and HB will not. The "you need an extra PC to run the Hollywood series" solution is not appealing to me.


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## flashman (Aug 2, 2012)

I have to say nothing I've heard so far beats the legato WW's from VSL. I will buy the lot I expect like a lot of other people but VSL is not going back into the box just yet. The only sample I am really excited about is the 8Dio brief bit of Oboe. Now that really sounded special.


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## adg21 (Aug 2, 2012)

flashman @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> I have to say nothing I've heard so far beats the legato WW's from VSL. I will buy the lot I expect like a lot of other people but VSL is not going back into the box just yet.



This seems like a popular opinion. They're not that great.


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## Ed (Aug 2, 2012)

Wow... just saw those other demos... I agree with Simon, what happened here? I find it hard to believe its user error making them sound like that. They really do have an Advanced Orchestra sound to them. Strange one dimensional quality and very odd to non-existent legato,. 

Either way o[])


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## handz (Aug 2, 2012)

askmusic @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> I think both videos (the offical and the user video) don't show HOW in a good way. They both seem to be produced very hasty by people, that didn't invest the necessary amount of time to get to know the library and thats a shame in my opinion.
> 
> If i'm wrong and thats really the material, one can get out of HOW, I would be immoderately dissapointed and quite sad.
> 
> . The guy in the official video shows his nice controlller, but hardly uses it properly. He also played many legato phrases with simple sustain patches. The thing with the breath controller is a nice hint, but I would be suprised, if HOW really supports the usage of breath controllers. HB doesn't and one has to setup some midi transformations etc. to make it usable. But thats a PLAY issue... one of many.





I not agree here - I want to hear how lib sounds out of the box without spending hours on midi etditing, eqing, etc etc - I want tool that is easy and fast to work with and it will still sound great, so Im glad for demos like this, in demos everything usually soudns nice as there was huge amount of tweaking and editing before publishing, those rushed demos shows what you get - and really, it not sounds very well, in fact to me they soudns same in timbre like old EWQLSO.

As some other said I also see this as a one big rushed fail release - it was for sure announced in a hurry after CW were released to at least concure BWW - which unfortunately I believe worked as lot of people do not ordered BWW in preorder as they wanted to hear demos of HOW first and now they must be angry they did not preordered BWW (as me) so it was somehow good countre move from EW but Im now not sure that it helps them in the end as from now I believe there is no discussion BWW are best from those three!

EDIT 
OMG that flue in official walktrough sounds really absolutely horrible, sorry but this is incredibly bad - if somebody did not liked CW Im looking forward to comments on this - where is re-peat?


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## Vision (Aug 2, 2012)

adg21 @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> flashman @ Thu Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > I have to say nothing I've heard so far beats the legato WW's from VSL. I will buy the lot I expect like a lot of other people but VSL is not going back into the box just yet.
> ...



I have to disagree.. 

VSL woodwinds on VI PRO are what, 5+ years old? Flawless (polyphonic) legato.. Using VI PRO 2.. arguably the most flexible, fully customizable, most well conceived sample player on the market. And the samples just sound organic esp with a breath controller. 

It's 2012. Their woodwinds still hold the test of time. Those guys put in work.. I give VSL major props.


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## handz (Aug 2, 2012)

Im surprised so many people forgot about Westgatem with alternative programing the obe especially is quite lovely.


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## Casey Edwards (Aug 2, 2012)

handz @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> Im surprised so many people forgot about Westgatem with alternative programing the obe especially is quite lovely.



I didn't forget. See my comment on page 3. I love my WestGate WWs!


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## handz (Aug 2, 2012)

I know, you are probably only one using them here it seems, I have obe and Flute and Im very happy with them.


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## adg21 (Aug 2, 2012)

Vision @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> adg21 @ Thu Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > flashman @ Thu Aug 02 said:
> ...


By no means am I saying that they aren't good. That _nothing_ sounds as good as them is just a tad over-exaggerating on how amazing they really are in my opinion.


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## Daryl (Aug 2, 2012)

adg21 @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> Vision @ Thu Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > adg21 @ Thu Aug 02 said:
> ...


I don't think that VSL Ww are flawless. Far from it. In fact I could give a list of things that could be improved. However, from what I've heard of the newer libraries, they have the same flaws and quite a few more.

D


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## adg21 (Aug 2, 2012)

Daryl @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> However, from what I've heard of the newer libraries, they have the same flaws and quite a few more.
> D



Like what? I'm not sure I _hear_ any more flaws in BWW


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## Camus (Aug 2, 2012)

I want to agree: Westgate Woods are heavily underrated. Still a fantastic and compound library!

best

Camus


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## Vision (Aug 2, 2012)

Daryl @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> adg21 @ Thu Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Vision @ Thu Aug 02 said:
> ...



You're right. Nothings perfect.. I just have yet to hear another company with polyphonic legato, that can compete at the moment. And what you can do with VI Pro just _works_.. no hassles on my end anyway.


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## Ed (Aug 2, 2012)

Before the argument about VSL starts again, the performance seems to work great with VSL, the reason I'm hankering for something better is that i want a really nicely recorded/engineered woodwind samples and VSL's room is not the best place to make that happen, though the problems of their room were much less of a problem for their woodwinds which is why people generally like them more than, say, the strings where you really need to be a much more die hard VSL fan to like. So far Ive heard really nice recorded samples like CW and Berlin, but as far as legato VSL still sounds so much better to me and I dont even have it (well, apart from some old French Oboe I cant use anymore) And since it was brought up I had Westgate Flute for Giga, the sound still isnt right though I remember the legato being decent.

Im waiting for the magic connection of great recordings *and *great legato. Embertone have been the only company that publically seems to have shown consistent evidence that they could nail both. East West.. from these demos at least actually seem to have failed in both regards, which is quite impressive.


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## José Herring (Aug 2, 2012)

One things for sure. I hate being in a position to judge which library sounds less bad!


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## handz (Aug 2, 2012)

Ed - you think VSL is (so much) better than BWW? Im quite amazed by BWW demos and overal idea behind it. Also tone is very nice, not as 8dio oboe example of course, but very nice. I must agree about rest of VSL of course - silent stage kills character of most insturments totally, even the brass is dead for me.


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## Ed (Aug 2, 2012)

handz @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> Ed - you think VSL is (so much) better than BWW? Im quite amazed by BWW demos and overal idea behind it. Also tone is very nice, not as 8dio oboe example of course, but very nice. I must agree about rest of VSL of course - silent stage kills character of most insturments totally, even the brass is dead for me.



I do think it is so much better in terms of legato, in terms of _everything else_, then Berlin winds hands down. 

I still hear phasyness on many of the Berlins transitions, and I know that will bug me. There is a practical reason why stuff like Embertone and VSL's legato sounds so much better, and I think it involves taking less shortcuts and requiring a longer time to record, but clearly results in better results. I think, and I dont know this for sure, but I have seem two different ways to record legato. One involves recording an entire transition and the note afterwards and recording the intervals up and down and crossfading in and out of them. That is why Albion high strings legato sounds SUPER phasey, I can literally hear it crossfading back into the sustain. Clearly thats one of the worst (best) examples of why its better to take the longer route.

Listen to Embertones trumpet, why does it sound so good? Listen to their flute, why does it sound so good? Legato Im talking about. Now go listen to CineWinds Oboe or Berlins Oboe, why doesnt it sound as good? I pick on Oboe as Oboe seems to go wrong so easily in both recording and legato. Im not even sure Adagio Oboe has the exact sound Im after haha, a little nasal (though possibly fixed with some EQ)


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## José Herring (Aug 2, 2012)

Ed @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> handz @ Thu Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed - you think VSL is (so much) better than BWW? Im quite amazed by BWW demos and overal idea behind it. Also tone is very nice, not as 8dio oboe example of course, but very nice. I must agree about rest of VSL of course - silent stage kills character of most insturments totally, even the brass is dead for me.
> ...



I know for a fact that Embertone takes no shortcuts. Pretty amazing group of guys over there.

BWW is a perfect room for woodwinds though. Though the jury is still out as to whether they can nail the programming.

I'm surprised at the demos for HOW though. What I heard sounded a lot better than what we're getting demo wise. Maybe its a question of learning how to use the thing.


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## Bernard Quatermass (Aug 2, 2012)

Flaws are one thing and sound is another. I can live with delivery flaws if theyre not extreme. Sound is the main importance.


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## Ed (Aug 2, 2012)

askmusic @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> Ed... the Chapman Trumpet from Embertone is quite nice, but it has the same problem - only at another stage of the sample. Play a legato interval and hold the note. It will blend after a couple of seconds into the sustain sample and it sounds not very much like a smooth blend on some notes.



Better than after 2 seconds than *immediately*. It just means you need to record longer sustains afterwards. yes it pushes up recording time but isnt that worth it?


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## Ed (Aug 2, 2012)

askmusic @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> If you want to pay for a full wind library with sustained legato transitions



Sure do! But if it takes too long just release it in bits. Do oboes, then flutes, the clarinets etc. 



> Another thing to consider is the recording time in relation to the consistency of sound, a player can deliver. If you need to record one legato patch on 2 days or so, there will be new problems. It is always a game with compromises. And I know no company, that doesn't do shortcuts (maybe instead of Samplemodelling). There are simply more or less in different products. (btw: sorry for OT)



I expect there to be compromises but Ive seen what compromises clearly result in an unacceptable result for me, I cant even use the Albion high string legatos at all. Ive seen that its possible to do it right. So if its possible, and its been done, i know Im not asking too much


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## adg21 (Aug 2, 2012)

josejherring @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> Ed @ Thu Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > I do think it is so much better in terms of legato, in terms of _everything else_, then Berlin winds hands down.
> ...



VSL and Embertone tend to have shorter legato transitions - certainly on the Jubal Flute. People like this because it's easier to write faster passages this way & and to write more virtuosic stuff. A smaller sound stage helps make this possible but also (unfortunately) I think developers over-egg the legato transitions simply to show off the fact that they recorded them, which I notice particularly with regards to Cinebrass and to some extent Hollywood Strings. I also think faster transition are one important thing missing in Adagio.


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## Ed (Aug 2, 2012)

Thats not the issue im talking about though, its the phaseyness to which comes from crossfading out of the interval back into the sustain. When it happens with solo instruments, a solo oboe can briefly sound like more than one because of that. What you're talking about is another issue entirely and has to do with what to tell the players when they are performing the notes/transitions so that you're getting transitions that are long or short enough.


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## Vlzmusic (Aug 2, 2012)

It amazes me, how people dismiss the fact, that with Vsl you pay for samples from top notch soloists, from the most competitive places in europe. 

Judging by the freshly released official HOW video walkthrough - here they come, the most inspirational tones from the local music school graduates.


P.S. Did i actually use the expression "artistic vision" on this thread yesterday?! What a crazy off-top!


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## José Herring (Aug 2, 2012)

Was that the official EW video walk through?

Wow. They need to take it down. Honesty HOW does sound better than that.


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## Ed (Aug 2, 2012)

Vlzmusic: While I think VSL's woods sound a LOT better than these... what a strange argument you just made. lol. Unless ...one of the reasons it sounds weird (like from samples recorded in the 90s) is because they are using poor musicians? Since im not tuned to hear that, is that the reason?


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## José Herring (Aug 2, 2012)

Did the guy record direct or was he micing his speakers for the video?


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 2, 2012)

Vlzmusic @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> It amazes me, how people dismiss the fact, that with Vsl you pay for samples from top notch soloists, from the most competitive places in europe.
> 
> Judging by the freshly released official HOW video walkthrough - here they come, the most inspirational tones from the local music school graduates.
> 
> ...



Please tell me that you did not just imply that HOW was not recorded with top session and orchestral players in LA just because you did not like a video walk through. Because if so, you are not only wrong, you are .....Nevermind, I will just let it speak for itself.


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## Vlzmusic (Aug 2, 2012)

I hope we all speak about the official - zipped mov. file from soundsonline site.

And if someone cannot tell those were horribly played in the first place - should take other`s word for it - I am sure plenty will follow


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## Ian Livingstone (Aug 2, 2012)

Vision @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> VSL woodwinds on VI PRO are what, 5+ years old? Flawless (polyphonic) legato.. Using VI PRO 2.. arguably the most flexible, fully customizable, most well conceived sample player on the market. And the samples just sound organic esp with a breath controller.
> 
> It's 2012. Their woodwinds still hold the test of time. Those guys put in work.. I give VSL major props.



Actually over 8 years - I'm still using the original VSL Performance Set Pro winds released in 2004 - I've reprogrammed completely multilayered scripted legato for Kontakt - their Flute Grace Legato is just gorgeous. Have still yet to hear anything that comes close from these newer libraries I'm sorry to say, although 8DIO oboe sounding fantastic.

Ian


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 2, 2012)

Vlzmusic @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> I hope we all speak about the official - zipped mov. file from soundsonline site.
> 
> And if someone cannot tell those were horribly played in the first place - should take other`s word for it - I am sure plenty will follow



You are confusing the programming in the video with the actual musicians sample recordings. I have them here and they are NOT horribly played. Clearly you don't have it to try yourself so that you can see what a foolish statement that is.


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## José Herring (Aug 2, 2012)

Vlzmusic @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> I hope we all speak about the official - zipped mov. file from soundsonline site.
> 
> And if someone cannot tell those were horribly played in the first place - should take other`s word for it - I am sure plenty will follow



No I didn't see that.

But, I will say that no the instruments were not horribly played. The clarinet player in HOW has one of the best sounds I've heard on a clarinet. The English Horn player very good. The flute player so, so same with the bassoon player, but not horrible and no worse than anybody else. The oboe I don't remember.

In comparison, The players in BWW all sound really great to me.

The players in VsL are pretty ok. There's not one woodwind tone in the library that stands out as spectacular.

As far as spectacular tones you really have to go all the way back to Sonic Implants winds. But of course you'd be limited in articulations.

The only thing that was really odd in HOW is that the only mic position that sounded good were the close mics. Touch of mids to add depth and that was about it. Main mics and mids by themselves sounded like the ww were recorded in a barn.

I'm guessing all the demos we're hearing are people still trying to figure it out.


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## Ed (Aug 2, 2012)

Ok just watching the video.... 

First few notes.... SOUND LIKE ASS. The accronym is HOW for this library. I agree. _HOW _DA FAQ did they make it sound like this? :lol: Sorry for being blunt but I mean seriously, it really does sound very similar to Advanced Orchestra or Roland with a touch more legato

I'll keep watching, but clearly this library isnt for me... lol

EDIT: they really need to reupload without distortion, anyone else getting that?


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## Vlzmusic (Aug 2, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> Vlzmusic @ Thu Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > I hope we all speak about the official - zipped mov. file from soundsonline site.
> ...




Well Jay, I am sorry for overreacting. It came as a shock really. Settled with the tremble in my typing fingers I can now relate that the "playing" remark mostly aimed the "difficult" ones in the reed family. I agree that the programming did more damage overall.

Anyway, I am silly judging a new library - time will do its thing.

Sorry again.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 2, 2012)

Vlzmusic @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Vlzmusic @ Thu Aug 02 said:
> ...



There is a methodology I have adopted lately that I will recommend to you. When you are about to post something that may be hyperbole, overly emotional, or just overly harsh, type it into your word processor, save it, and do nothing until you are more relaxed. Re-read it and THEN decide if you still wish to post it. 

Trust me, it cuts down on the number of silly or simply ill-advised things we post.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 2, 2012)

josejherring @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> Was that the official EW video walk through?
> 
> Wow. They need to take it down. .[/quote
> 
> ...


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## handz (Aug 2, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> josejherring @ Thu Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Was that the official EW video walk through?
> ...




Oh so this is Edward Shearmur, I remember him much younger  I really love Sky Captain and some other of his works were really lovely sad he did not get better attention later on. 

Anyway I would immediately remove this video as at least the flute sounds really horrible, I loved demos of HS I like HB but this is really not good to my ears and I really cant imagine anybody who is objective can say that the lib sounds better than any concurence fro mpast years.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 2, 2012)

handz @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > josejherring @ Thu Aug 02 said:
> ...



Well, what I will say is that more than with HS and HB, mic choice is critical since woodwinds play softer and hit the room harder. Personally, I would only use the decca tree (mains) in a BIG orchestral sound. For more intimate, exposed stuff, I like the close with a little mid. When the sound required is bigger, I would add more mid. As Ed is doing this with no other instruments, the mic choices may have not been the best. He was assuming that people would hear past that, but they do not always.

Here is something I dashed off and in the pic you can see my mic choices.
http://soundcloud.com/jay-asher/hw-flute


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## handz (Aug 2, 2012)

Sounds bit better than what is in previous demos, but, that small run at 0.07 - this is tragedy, seems legato is totally not capable of such faster passages, which I believe BWW can handle quite nicely.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 2, 2012)

handz @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> Sounds bit better than what is in previous demos, but, that small run at 0.07 - this is tragedy, seems legato is totally not capable of such faster passages, which I believe BWW can handle quite nicely.



I did this in 30 seconds. with the Legato Slur patch,. Another patch, which normally i might use for a run like that, might handle it better. I was just trying to illustrate how different the tone is depending on the mic choice since on my personal list of top 10 most important things, tone is #1-5.

you guys always say you want to hear quick and naked, but then you jump on things that require a little more work, not just with EW, but all the libraries, thereby proving you cannot hear beyond it. Which is why developers are reluctant to do naked , quick stuff.

And "tragedy" is a little overwrought for a comment about samples, isn't it? Tragedy is Chernobyl, not a bad sounding sample played in run. :roll:


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## Ed (Aug 2, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> Here is something I dashed off and in the pic you can see my mic choices.
> http://soundcloud.com/jay-asher/hw-flute



Sounds a little better perhaps, but thats not saying too much, video's examples were at its worst (like the start) shockingly terrible (as was the run in the example above) and at its best not so bad in comparison and possibly passable... Symphobia 2's 1 dynamic, 1 legato type, 1 vibrato type solo legato flute sounds a lot better than the above example and Im sure if someone tried it VSL would easily blow this away (especially the extended stuff).

And Jay its easy to prove your logic faulty, Garritan uses lots of examples from authority on his website to prove that GPO is used by real top professionals. Does that mean anything? Well it shouldnt.


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## rpaillot (Aug 2, 2012)

Some people wondered why Nphoenix and TJ disappeared from soundsonline website and are mentioned nowhere. Well, you just have to listen to the official walkthrough of HWW and you can make up your own answer...
If I was NP or TJ, I would make everything not to have my name on a product like this xD
Seems like something went wrong during the process. 

Legato almost non-present, weird room reflections when you hear the mid mics, one-dimensional sound, and the most important thing : no musicality ....

o=?


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 2, 2012)

Ok guys,post something similar that you play in in one quick pass no ccs, as I did,that sounds better with the library of your choice.


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## JohnG (Aug 2, 2012)

Mistaken post


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## JohnG (Aug 2, 2012)

Mistaken post.


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## handz (Aug 2, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> Ok guys,post something similar that you play in in one quick pass no ccs, as I did,that sounds better with the library of your choice.



Hope somebody pick up this thrown glove


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## Ed (Aug 2, 2012)

Ok here's Symphobia 2's solo flute. Only riding modwheel a bit for volume but I can hear that in your track too Jay.

http://soundcloud.com/edwardbradshawmus ... ap/s-oUuiM

Keep in mind...

1 Pass. No editing, playing a load of crap, badly. (And I am not trained at playing piano)
1 Dynamic
1 Legato type
1 vibrato type.

I think it sounds way better, and it shouldnt. I think it plays fast pretty well and it plays slow well. Yours doesnt play slow very well and fast is horrible.


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## handz (Aug 2, 2012)

Oh Ed was faster I was working on that too, sounds so much better...


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## Ed (Aug 2, 2012)

hehe.  I mean hey if J's demo is not representative okay, if it turns out there's some good demos after all thats great. 

But right now, its terrible. If people listen to Jay's then mine and think Jay's sounds better, thats wonderful, this is probably a product for them. But lets get some perspective here, right? I think most people can tell which sounds better. I'd like to hear the same thing with CineWinds and Berlin actually. Symphobia 2's flute is particularly good so maybe its not a fair comparison to the other new libs or VSL, and maybe Berlin and Cinewinds sound just as bad, but I heard demos for those libs and while they have problems nowhere near this awful.


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## devastat (Aug 2, 2012)

Been playing with this all day, in my opinion HOW does sound really good. There is some differences in quality between different instruments (for example the legato transitions in Flute 2 are much better than Flute 1), and it can sound a bit keyboardy sometimes - but when using modwheel correctly you can achieve a great sound. Main mics have much more "air" than the other mic positions giving a sense of the space where they are recorded. It blends very well with HS and HB which makes me very happy.


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## Vlzmusic (Aug 2, 2012)

Please enjoy my stupid keys bashing with SE Flute II legato patch by VSL with some spaces reverb on it.... No cc`s no nothing, some stupid sequences too - just like Jay wanted 

http://soundcloud.com/vlzmusic/flute2-vsl


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## José Herring (Aug 2, 2012)

Ed @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> Ok here's Symphobia 2's solo flute. Only riding modwheel a bit for volume but I can hear that in your track too Jay.
> 
> http://soundcloud.com/edwardbradshawmus ... ap/s-oUuiM
> 
> ...



Nah. That sounds really bad too.

I finally heard the official HOW video. Yeah there's something way wrong with it unfortunately. The legato just doesn't seem to be triggering at all so when he does his fast passages its just sustains. I think he's just not overlapping the notes or something.


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## Ed (Aug 2, 2012)

@Vlzmusic: Sounds great. Apart from the repeated clicking on one transition, but apart from that miles better. And this is VSL! Bad room! Ok Im going to go sit back a bit and let other people comment for a bit


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## sin(x) (Aug 2, 2012)

Damn, now I wanna go and buy Symphobia 2. :?


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## Ed (Aug 2, 2012)

josejherring @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> Nah. That sounds really bad too.



Sorry Jose but it doesnt sound that bad, its one of the best solo flute sounds around even at 1 layer. Just because you're a hyper critical wind player, it all sounds pretty bad to you. I know that because of how much you bang on about how bad you think the best example of orchestral woodwind samples are, VSL. I have put Symphobia 2 up to actual soundtracks and in many cases its practically identical, for example the flute line in the Caprica Theme I think could be replaced by this and you'd never know the difference. Sure its not perfect, never said it was. Any woodwind samples that sound better than this?

Anyway my point does *not * require it to be "good", or brilliant or perfect, its that it sounds a lot better than Jay's version when its only a single layer and thats the only reason I posted it. Some of the stuff in that video could be better or the same as Advanced Orchestra or Roland samples, if I posted a recording using that you wouldn't reply saying it sounds bad.


----------



## handz (Aug 2, 2012)

Ed @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> josejherring @ Thu Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Nah. That sounds really bad too.
> ...



Wanted to say same thing, Jose you seem to not like any WW out there as a wind player you are too critical IMO, point is that such a basic instrument like Symphobia flute sounds much better than the one in HOW.


----------



## José Herring (Aug 2, 2012)

handz @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> Ed @ Fri Aug 03 said:
> 
> 
> > josejherring @ Thu Aug 02 said:
> ...



Yes. Ed's bad example sounds better than Jay's bad example.  

Actually the VSL flute 2 example is not that bad.


----------



## Ed (Aug 2, 2012)

josejherring @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> Yes. Ed's bad example sounds better than Jay's bad example.
> 
> Actually the VSL flute 2 example is not that bad.



Oh good we agree then. I guess you never miss a chance to irrelevantly comment on how woodwinds samples sound bad. Right then, back to lurk...


----------



## adg21 (Aug 2, 2012)

Ed @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> josejherring @ Thu Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes. Ed's bad example sounds better than Jay's bad example.
> ...



To be fair they all sound pretty bad to me.


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## Ed (Aug 2, 2012)

_Delurk for one comment, again.._

Sigh. The question is not what sounds bad, I think we can all agree we are not satisified with woodwinds samples. I am happy with Symphobia 2's flute under certain circumstances and I think it does a lot of things right that others do not, but I am still not happy with it. I know it can be better. The question in this case is WHICH IS BETTER THAN THE OTHER.

I swear some people think in black and white. The same kind of people i think that will comment on threads about sample libraries (in a sample library forum I know, right?) saying they arent as good as the real thing. Oh no really,.. y'dont say? We're all trying to get closer to the real thing, to make samples better. That involves how to direct mucians when playing, its the quality of musicians, quality of recording, quality of the room, quality of the editing, quality of the programming, quality of the theory of how to sample the instrument/s that was put into practise in the first place. All of that can be improved in various ways, or it can get worse. Some libs do things better than others, some are worse than others. Something might be very deeply sampled but not in practice turn out as good as one really good layer, why? Because all those things i said are factors in how good a sample is. The magic combination is where al or most of these factors are done really well.


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## José Herring (Aug 2, 2012)

adg21 @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> Ed @ Thu Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > josejherring @ Thu Aug 02 said:
> ...



I was trying to compromise.

Actually the EW problem is pretty easy to diagnose.

The legato isn't triggering all the time. As a matter of fact it's not triggering ever. In Jay's example, the only time it triggers is on the octave transition.

So my guess is that the EW flute is bumping up against truncated sustains when it should be doing slurs.

I would try to turn the legato knob in Play all the way up and see if they're even there at all.

Next I would do a real Alpha testing stress test. Play straight 8th notes chromatically up the scale and then down again at Bpm 100. Repeat that at all dynamic layers, p, mf, ff it seems to me.

Then I'd go through every note and do goose egg cresc to make sure all the xfades fades are acting right. 

This will expose 90% of the problems in programming.

Once that's done then you can expose the rest by doing short arps up and down at various tempos.

I have a short test that I started to developed when I was entertaining the idea of doing my own library. If you like I can post the midi file.

But, I want to stress, that the problems with HOW are easily fixable if you know what you're looking for. Of course it's going to take some time.

Also, the problems with CW are pretty easily fixable too, but there doesn't seem to be anybody interested in fixing them. Rather more people trying to deny that they're there.

But, I'd be willing to donate some time to it if anybody is interested. I still maintain that these problems are cropping up in the library because people just don't know how woodwinds work. Or never took the time to figure it out.


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## Vlzmusic (Aug 2, 2012)

Ok this one is specially for Jay, just to round off our previous, rather heated discussion... He`ll know what I mean by this:

http://soundcloud.com/vlzmusic/bassoon2-vsl


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 2, 2012)

Once again the sole purpose of what I did was to show that with the right mic mix you can get a pleasing sound and I think I did that. If you don't agree, you don't agree and I am fine with that.


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## José Herring (Aug 2, 2012)

The sustains are good but the transitions are not, which isn't your fault. The programming is off. Like I said, if we would all stop getting defensive and actually hunker down, the problem could be easily solved.

It was the same problem that is apparent in Edward S. video. The legatos aren't triggering. Which is odd to me, because when I was at your place they were triggering. So maybe there's something off with the speed control or something.


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## Benji (Aug 2, 2012)

I must agree with Josejherring about HOW, all the samples are here, it's just some tweeks to do I believe.

Listen to JDR HOW walkthrough it doesn't sound really bad at 11min...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPCuoADqbDc

If you compare this with the begining of the Legato official Berlin Woodwinds video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmuVeV03J8A


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## Ed (Aug 2, 2012)

Just want to say Jose that I am certain I hear the transitions, Im not sure why you cant? They arent that pronounced, and not really helping much especially in the run, but if they were not triggering ever it would sound worse. It might not be working properly, but I still do hear something. if its proved nothing is happening I'll eat my hat._(if that hat is made of delicious bacon)_ 

Benji Re: Berlin, I never liked the legato when I saw that video and I said so the first time I heard it. Sounds weird and the vibrato sounds disjointed when transitions are happening. I think what makes it still better than Jays example and the library in general is the sound itself is better. There seems to be a great combination of fail going on in various areas of the East West lib. I dont think we should get too deep into thinking the legato is solely to blame, I really think its also the sound of the recording and probably the playing too. At times in the video the vibrato sounded very mechanical


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## adg21 (Aug 2, 2012)

I'm beginning to feel for Jay having to support this library, HOW is not going to impress many people in its current form, it just doesn't sound right yet. Composers who buy everything & kids who only ever bought EastWest will buy it, but for the rest of us I'm not so sure.


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## Vision (Aug 2, 2012)

josejherring @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> Ed @ Thu Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Ok here's Symphobia 2's solo flute. Only riding modwheel a bit for volume but I can hear that in your track too Jay.
> ...



This flute has character.. saying its "really bad" is pure exaggeration. It almost comes off as bias. For a one time pass it's actually really good. It's not perfect, but it isn't supposed to be. I mean Symphobia 2 wasn't even marketed for the flute. If this patch was used in a film, with a good mix and orchestration.. 90% of the audience wouldn't think twice. 

Anyway Nicks recent post says it all:

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... =1#3641626


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## noiseboyuk (Aug 2, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> Once again the sole purpose of what I did was to show that with the right mic mix you can get a pleasing sound and I think I did that. If you don't agree, you don't agree and I am fine with that.



Have to say in this case I don't agree either. Something is wrong - if you're playing a legato patch there, it really doesn't sound like it's working. I assumed from the first demo I heard it was user error, but that can't be true in your case or the official demo. From Nick and Thomas' statement, I have to say right now East West need to urgently do some rethinking and bridge building. I can't speculate on the politics of all this - all we can hear is that a product isn't working properly, and we can see a very public disagreement with the original team behind the first two of the series.

Symphobia 2 sounds really good. I never bought into S2 for several reasons - range, lack of velocity layers etc, but this shows just how useful it can be just on a limited range. The VSL demo is pretty in your face, but it plays ok. That's where I am with the woods generally - I'm happy with my VSL pretty much.


----------



## José Herring (Aug 2, 2012)

Vision @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> josejherring @ Thu Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed @ Thu Aug 02 said:
> ...



I understand where you're coming from especially if you like it. 

I'm not biased. Really not at all. I just make a snap judgement. If I listen to something an impression just immediately pops in my head.

The symphobia flute the transitions are too slow and clunky and so immediately it sounds artificial. But like you said. It was never intended to be a selling point of Sym2 so why belabor the point.

Now for some reason. Fooling around with HOW at Jays studio produced a lot better results than what we're hearing today. So something is going astray. I'd like to figure out what it is rather than just bashing. It could be a bug in the script that just crashes after a while.


----------



## Vision (Aug 2, 2012)

I'll say this also... Critical feedback is a must in order for this product to get better. There should be no reason to bash a product just for kicks. I hope that Jay And the East West team don't take it personally. I'd like to see this product realize its full potential.. Even just for the sake of competition.


----------



## José Herring (Aug 2, 2012)

Vision @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> I'll say this also... Critical feedback is a must in order for this product to get better. There should be no reason to bash a product just for kicks. I hope that Jay And the East West team don't take it personally. I'd like to see this product realize its full potential.. Even just for the sake of competition.



+1


----------



## Niah (Aug 2, 2012)

Vision @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> I'll say this also... Critical feedback is a must in order for this product to get better. There should be no reason to bash a product just for kicks. I hope that Jay And the East West team don't take it personally. I'd like to see this product realize its full potential.. Even just for the sake of competition.



You said it all !


----------



## devastat (Aug 2, 2012)

Short test with the HWO Flute 2 legato (main mics) http://soundcloud.com/devastat/hw-test-flute-2/s-UXxks


----------



## José Herring (Aug 2, 2012)

devastat @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> Short test with the HWO Flute 2 legato (main mics) http://soundcloud.com/devastat/hw-test-flute-2/s-UXxks



Closer. Do the same thing, lower the dynamic just a tad, turn down the legato transition just a tad by about 1 or 2 db and use the close mics with a touch of the mids or mains turned down about 1/2 way. let's see if we can get it just a little closer.


----------



## Ed (Aug 2, 2012)

Well now, that is a lot better, what the hell happened? Jay should remove his demo and the video should be taken down and destroyed with fire.

First thoughts are, why does it sound like its sucking with each transition? Are you riding the modwheel at all?


----------



## José Herring (Aug 2, 2012)

My guess is that the transitions are set too loud. But, I could be wrong. 

The main mics though aren't bad sounding. Much better than the midtree.


----------



## Vision (Aug 2, 2012)

Ian Livingstone @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> Vision @ Thu Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > VSL woodwinds on VI PRO are what, 5+ years old? Flawless (polyphonic) legato.. Using VI PRO 2.. arguably the most flexible, fully customizable, most well conceived sample player on the market. And the samples just sound organic esp with a breath controller.
> ...



Yeah I hear you Ian, I had the cube in O4, and was using the EXS24 with performance tool in logic. The reason I said 5+ years, was because I didn't know if they were using the same sample set then as they are now in VI Pro 2. If this is the case, that's even more impressive.


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## Vision (Aug 2, 2012)

devastat @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> Short test with the HWO Flute 2 legato (main mics) http://soundcloud.com/devastat/hw-test-flute-2/s-UXxks



Sounds better.. Would like to hear faster passages as well.


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## devastat (Aug 2, 2012)

josejherring @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> Do the same thing, lower the dynamic just a tad, turn down the legato transition just a tad by about 1 or 2 db and use the close mics with a touch of the mids or mains turned down about 1/2 way. let's see if we can get it just a little closer.



Ok this is the same thing, slightly less dynamic mostly close mics with touch of mains included: http://soundcloud.com/devastat/hw-test- ... se/s-ZKbfO - I personally prefer Main mics tho, as it brings some air.


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## José Herring (Aug 2, 2012)

Yeah. I like the main mics a little better in this context. But, I still think the transitions are too loud. Did you try turning them down in Play?


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## devastat (Aug 2, 2012)

josejherring @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> Yeah. I like the main mics a little better in this context. But, I still think the transitions are too loud. Did you try turning them down in Play?



Release samples -2db Main mics only http://soundcloud.com/devastat/hw-test- ... se/s-ZKbfO


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## José Herring (Aug 2, 2012)

devastat @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> josejherring @ Fri Aug 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah. I like the main mics a little better in this context. But, I still think the transitions are too loud. Did you try turning them down in Play?
> ...



Yeah. Could be smoother yet with a bit of finesse, but this is doing much better. 

Hopefully I'll be able to put it through its paces soon.

But, the flute has that soaring sound in the high register and slowing evolving sustains. Something that I look for but don't find in sample libraries and is what I heard when I first heard it.

Could be that the release samples and transition samples need to be tweaked a bit.


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## RiffWraith (Aug 2, 2012)

devastat @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> josejherring @ Fri Aug 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah. I like the main mics a little better in this context. But, I still think the transitions are too loud. Did you try turning them down in Play?
> ...



That sounds good, but the problem I have is the note transitions. They are too sharp (not talking pitch). This:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbFjWPNfy6c

is what a flute is supposed to sound like. Hear how the each note_ flows _into the next.....I hate the term "like butter" when it comes to music, and gear, but I actually think that "like butter" fits here.

And what don't you hear? You don't hear legato transitions. I really believe that this whole "building legato transitions into the samples" does not work.

Cheers.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 2, 2012)

I never tell people what they should or should not like and I am not going to start now. After all, I have a history of liking (and using for paying work) libraries that many here do not. So just as I ask that others respect my differing opinions, I respect theirs. And BTW, what I am doing here in this thread, after the initial announcement off the release and subsequent demos, is NOT part of my job description. I am speaking my mind and I can handle the backlash so adg21, you need not feel sorry for me 

But a guy like Ed Shearmur does not go and do a video for a product he has that he is unhappy with and his bona fides are pretty good.

With the possible exception of about 1/2 dozen people here, I have heard no one post pieces with woodwinds that sound as good as Birdsall's and Antonio's do to my ears, although that is a subjective judgement obviously.

And here is a post from someone who actually owns the library now: 
"just wanted to give a quick little update on my experiences with HOW thus far.
I tried out all the instruments for a little while last night, and while the English Horn is typically my favorite woodwind, the oboe had me captivated for well over an hour. To my ears it alone is worth the price of the whole library. 
All the flutes sound great, the legatos really shine for them. I love the pre-recorded scales and runs, too. The bassoon(s) have a deep, rich sound to them in the low/mid registers. The only issue I ran into was with clarinet... it sounded like the attack sample was too loud relative to the sustain, so there was a noticeable drop in volume once the sustain sample was triggered. Cheers to EW for another fantastic library! "

And one of our own forum members who owns the library, Davstat, wrote earlier in this thread: "Been playing with this all day, in my opinion HOW does sound really good. There is some differences in quality between different instruments (for example the legato transitions in Flute 2 are much better than Flute 1), and it can sound a bit keyboardy sometimes - but when using modwheel correctly you can achieve a great sound. Main mics have much more "air" than the other mic positions giving a sense of the space where they are recorded. It blends very well with HS and HB which makes me very happy."

And while he is not impressed with the demos, when he was at my place Jose' was impressed with what he heard.

It does not make them right and the ones here knocking it wrong, but it does show that others may see it differently. And as has been true of the other 2 members all the Hollywood series, it will continue to be improved and improved and improved.


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## muziksculp (Aug 2, 2012)

*PLAY 4 *will be released this month ! 

http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?t=42353


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## Simon Ravn (Aug 2, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> handz @ Thu Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds bit better than what is in previous demos, but, that small run at 0.07 - this is tragedy, seems legato is totally not capable of such faster passages, which I believe BWW can handle quite nicely.
> ...



It's the tone which is wrong. The playing - it sounds so feeble and... well, amateurish. No amount of tweaking will save this turd.


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## Dmitry Noskov (Aug 3, 2012)

As I love to say: Dog is barking but the caravan moves on.. 
Thanks to EW


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## noiseboyuk (Aug 3, 2012)

RiffWraith @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> I really believe that this whole "building legato transitions into the samples" does not work.



I couldn't disagree more. We're been round these houses many, many times I realise. In a sense, the purest test for this is VSL woods - just play a line with a fast passage using legato vs any other method, and you hear basic sampled legato working as it should. You don't perceive it as a note transition, it just sounds like a realistic line, with zero effort on the part of the composer.

Jay's example was, sad to say, horribly keyboardy on the fast run. Devastat's examples don't sound anything like as unrealistic, but the transitions are far too prominent - you DO perceive them and that sounds wrong for woods. My theory - not owning it of course - is that they are tweaked far too loud, but don't always trigger - perhaps they're not triggering on fast playing. If so, scripting problems, as suggested by Nick and Thomas.

The Play 4 news is very welcome - background loading is one of my biggest problems with Play resolved, if it works glitch-free.


----------



## noiseboyuk (Aug 3, 2012)

[wrong thread]


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## devastat (Aug 3, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> Jay's example was, sad to say, horribly keyboardy on the fast run.



My feeling is that HOW doesn't handle fast passages very well in legato (some instruments are better some are worse) and it can make HOW synth-sounding if playing too fast. This can be improved with the use of modwheel and some midi editing but this is something that hopefully will be improved in the future updates.


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## Benji (Aug 3, 2012)

devastat @ 3/8/2012 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Fri Aug 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Jay's example was, sad to say, horribly keyboardy on the fast run.
> ...



What about the playable runs and staccato runs patches? Maybe it is more in context for fast passages than the regular legato patches?


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## devastat (Aug 3, 2012)

devastat @ 3/8/2012 said:


> What about the playable runs and staccato runs patches? Maybe it is more in context for fast passages than the regular legato patches?


Those patches can work for runs, but not if you want to start playing slow and lyrically and then have some quick passages here and there.


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## Daryl (Aug 3, 2012)

Hey, can we all play? This is fun. :lol: 

http://snd.sc/Nq5cnv

D


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## sin(x) (Aug 3, 2012)

Daryl, try to ride the modwheel more. Also, I hear very suspicious phasing going on in the longer notes. And those “runs” are a dead give-away. C'mon, get with the program! :mrgreen:


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## devastat (Aug 3, 2012)

Vision @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> Sounds better.. Would like to hear faster passages as well.



Here is another one with Flute 2 http://soundcloud.com/devastat/hw-test-4/s-NgLt3


----------



## redleicester (Aug 3, 2012)

Vision @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> Ian Livingstone @ Thu Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Vision @ Thu Aug 02 said:
> ...



The main bulk of the recordings are now ten years old.... they were released first in 16bit, then as technology moved on the 24bit versions of the SAME samples were released, and it's those that are in the Symphonic Cube. They've subsequently done the Choirs as new recordgins and the cut down Special Editions are just edits and loopings of that same old original sample set. Astonishing that they still remain unmatched.


----------



## Ed (Aug 3, 2012)

redleicester @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> Astonishing that they still remain unmatched.



Which either means what people are doing now just sucks, or what they were doing back then was very impressive.

Either way, they really shouldnt be as good or better than samples made 12 years later.

EDIT: Im not talking about tone or the sound of the room.


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## Simon Ravn (Aug 3, 2012)

I don't think the tone and timbre of the VSL samples are as good as everything that has been done since. For soloist work I think you can get them to work great, but they don't blend as well into a mix with more ambient samples. I still use the flute occassionally and the clarinet - sometimes even the bassoon, but ONLY for solos really. I think while CineWinds and Berlin don't have as convincing legato playing, they have many aspects that are superior to VSL in other departments. Like air and ambience. Also VSL I wouldn't use for anything but their legato. I know other people use VSL more or less exclusively, so it is possible, but to me there are some shortcomings with the "silent stage" and the lack of more round robins in the staccatos etc.


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## handz (Aug 3, 2012)

Agree 100%


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## devastat (Aug 3, 2012)

There is definitely some programming issues in HOW at the moment, and you need to work a bit harder to get good results, but there is something "organic" about the sound quality that I absolutely love and I believe that the results you can get in the end can be absolutely great. It will take some time to learn to use this (and EW will have to improve the programming), but I think you can really hear some Shawn Murphy magic here..


----------



## Daryl (Aug 3, 2012)

sin(x) @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> Daryl, try to ride the modwheel more. Also, I hear very suspicious phasing going on in the longer notes. And those “runs” are a dead give-away. C'mon, get with the program! :mrgreen:


And this is why I posted this. I am playing one layer, so there can't be any phasing. I am also using a Breath controller, so there is no need to ride the mod wheel. Also nobody would play runs with a normal legato patch under normal circumstances. I'm afraid you've just outed yourself as a typical forum wannabe......! :lol: 

I think that this just goes to show that opinions on forums about virtual instruments are just that. Opinions. They have no reflection on the reality of what an instrument sounds like. :wink: 

D


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 3, 2012)

devastat @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> There is definitely some programming issues in HOW at the moment, and you need to work a bit harder to get good results, but there is something "organic" about the sound quality that I absolutely love and I believe that the results you can get in the end can be absolutely great. It will take some time to "learn" to use this, but I think you can really hear some Shawn Murphy magic here..



Devastat, now that you have had this a bit, would you agree with Gerd's post that I am quoting here?

"y feedback for version 1.0 .
1. In version 1.0 the scripts in the Legato Patches are too slow to work with fast(er) passages, no matter if you use the Runs patches or other legato patches.
This results in some kind of audible overlapping of the release samples or sometimes a kind of phasing/chorus effect . (This happens in Logic / Standalone / VEPRO5 )
Some Mic postions sound better than others here .But this depends on the particular instruments.

2. As mentioned in this thread , version 1.0 does not offer legato patches similar to HS powerful patches , wherein you have independent control of dynamics and vibrato .( As stated in that thread those patches are already in work for upcoming Instrument Updates )

3. The balance of the volume between the various Mics in the Diamond Edition :
Maybe it is just me , but especially the Vintage Mics sometimes sound louder
than any of the other Mics . Quite different to HS and HB .

Points 1 +2 are essential to create convincing MIDI mockups for Wood.

To end this entry with a positive thought :
HOW blends very well with HS and HB, and the overall tone is very nice ."


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 3, 2012)

Daryl @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> sin(x) @ Fri Aug 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Daryl, try to ride the modwheel more. Also, I hear very suspicious phasing going on in the longer notes. And those “runs” are a dead give-away. C'mon, get with the program! :mrgreen:
> ...



ROTFL! Good one, my man Daryl. I wish you were more of an EW guys and less of a VSL guy, but much respect to you. You are the real deal.


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## handz (Aug 3, 2012)

"Also nobody would play runs with a normal legato patch under normal circumstances"

cough cough, do not mistake some crazy fast up/down scale runs with medium / faster tempo 4 notes run in melodies etc, those should be nicely payable with legato instumet, and clearly this is one big mess here with HOW.


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## Daryl (Aug 3, 2012)

handz @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> "Also nobody would play runs with a normal legato patch under normal circumstances"
> 
> cough cough, do not mistake some crazy fast up/down scale runs with medium / faster tempo 4 notes run in melodies etc, those should be nicely payable with legato instumet, and clearly this is one big mess here with HOW.


Agreed, but I was talking about my funny little demo. There is no way that I would do that for real without a patch change.

D


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## devastat (Aug 3, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> 1. In version 1.0 the scripts in the Legato Patches are too slow to work with fast(er) passages,



I fully agree here - In HS there are these great StacSL (?) legato patches with faster transitions, and I really think that HOW would need something similar - additional legato patches that allows faster passages to be played.



EastWest Lurker @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> 2. As mentioned in this thread , version 1.0 does not offer legato patches similar to HS powerful patches , wherein you have independent control of dynamics and vibrato .( As stated in that thread those patches are already in work for upcoming Instrument Updates )



I think that few of the instruments does this already like the Oboe. Control with separate vibrato and dynamics would be great in all instruments. One that comes in mind specifically is Alto Flute which currently doesn't have hardly any vibrato in the legato patch - luckly tho there is the nonvib-vib sustains patch for the Alto Flute which is helpful.


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## Ed (Aug 3, 2012)

Daryl @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> . I am playing one layer, so there can't be any phasing. I



Well there can be phasing on one layer, since as I said the interval is crossfaded into the sustain, it just appears some libs record more of the note held afterwards than others and so the crossfade back into the sustain isnt as noticeable.


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## Daryl (Aug 3, 2012)

Ed @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> Daryl @ Fri Aug 03 said:
> 
> 
> > . I am playing one layer, so there can't be any phasing. I
> ...


Er, no. The transition interval is not xfaded into the sustain. VSL doesn't do this with the legato Woodwind patches. They record a full length note after the transition, which is why it sometimes "runs out". I wish they would loop some of these, but that's only a minor quibble.

D


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## Daryl (Aug 3, 2012)

askmusic @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> I'm starting to believe that Ed has a phasy speaker configuration or phasy ears. :shock:


Having been Ping Pong training all afternoon, I've definitely got phasey ears. :lol: 

D


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## Ed (Aug 3, 2012)

Daryl @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> Er, no. The transition interval is not xfaded into the sustain. VSL doesn't do this with the legato Woodwind patches. They record a full length note after the transition, which is why it sometimes "runs out". I wish they would loop some of these, but that's only a minor quibble.
> 
> D



I was actually *complimenting *VSL. I already explained in previous posts that the reason why VSL sounds better is that they *do *record the full note afterwards and that the reason why there is phaseyness in libraries like CineWinds and Berlin directly on the transition itself is because they likely do not record the full note afterwards. Its also why I gave Albion high strings legato as an example of this phaseyness, since I can literally hear it crossfading back into the sustain. What I was saying here was that even if its 1 layer of legato you can still get phaseyness.


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## Daryl (Aug 3, 2012)

Ed @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> Daryl @ Fri Aug 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Er, no. The transition interval is not xfaded into the sustain. VSL doesn't do this with the legato Woodwind patches. They record a full length note after the transition, which is why it sometimes "runs out". I wish they would loop some of these, but that's only a minor quibble.
> ...


Oh I see. I wasn't understanding why you were commenting on my comment about phasing not being possible in my example. I didn't realise you were agreeing with me. Sorry. :oops: 

D


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## Ed (Aug 3, 2012)

Daryl @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> Oh I see. I wasn't understanding why you were commenting on my comment about phasing not being possible in my example. I didn't realise you were agreeing with me. Sorry. :oops:



Its okay, I mean most of the time I dont seem to agree with you so I can see why you might automatically think that :lol:


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 3, 2012)

When people raise issues, especially a fair number of people I respect and perceive as objective, I take it seriously. So I have been forwarding the issues you guys have raised about the legatos and runs and I have a response:

"Thanks for your feedback, guys. We have verified some of these issues and they will be addressed in instrument updates, the first of which will be released next week. EW is totally committed to constantly improve ALL the Hollywood series libraries."


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## Gerd Kaeding (Aug 3, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> When people raise issues, especially a fair number of people I respect and perceive as objective, I take it seriously. So I have been forwarding the issues you guys have raised about the legatos and runs and I have a response:
> 
> "Thanks for your feedback, guys. We have verified some of these issues and they will be addressed in instrument updates, the first of which will be released next week. EW is totally committed to constantly improve ALL the Hollywood series libraries."



Hello Jay ,

thanks for your efforts ! Much appreciated !

And it's good to hear that EW is already working on improvements/updates.

Best
Gerd


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## Mike Connelly (Aug 3, 2012)

josejherring @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> I have a short test that I started to developed when I was entertaining the idea of doing my own library. If you like I can post the midi file.



I'd like to see that. I've been wondering if devs create midi files that run through all aspects of an instrument to check that everything's working right. It's all too common to come across big gaps in the dynamics, RR's that are way different in level, etc that seem like they would have been caught with a methodical "song" that contained the right comparisons.

This sort of thing would probably make a good topic for a new thread, definitely getting OT here.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 4, 2012)

Gerd Kaeding @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Fri Aug 03 said:
> 
> 
> > When people raise issues, especially a fair number of people I respect and perceive as objective, I take it seriously. So I have been forwarding the issues you guys have raised about the legatos and runs and I have a response:
> ...



And thank you Gerd for always being true to yourself.


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## Craig Sharmat (Aug 4, 2012)

I think there were a few mistakes made in the video and a better thought out presentation would have put the library in a better light. Cello Studios or EW as it is now called is a moderate sized scoring stage. Even in a bigger room like Sony a mixer would have put external reverb on everything. Playing the samples dry out of the box did HOW no favors and it was the first thing you hear and it continues for a while. Once the verb is applied and the wind controller is used the presentation improves but unfortunately most opinions are already made by then. The library sounds like it will work well once the kinks are worked out as is always the case with EW orchestral libraries. I for one will not buy it as I have a friendship with the ex partners and BWW is a great lib I can use on my Mac today (VSL has strengths too). If you are a fan of the EW approach I believe the library will end up fine.


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## Ed (Aug 4, 2012)

Craig Sharmat @ Sat Aug 04 said:


> I for one will not buy it as I have a friendship with the ex partners



Wow Nick and TJ must really hate it.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 4, 2012)

Ed @ Sat Aug 04 said:


> Craig Sharmat @ Sat Aug 04 said:
> 
> 
> > I for one will not buy it as I have a friendship with the ex partners
> ...



That is who Craig is referring to.

As always, Craig conducts himself with candor and class. I wish he felt differently but I totally respect his reasoning.


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## Lex (Aug 4, 2012)

Wow...that's THE Ed Shearmur...Reign Of Fire is one of my top top favorite scores.

Great demonstration of whats in the package.

I don't like how the lib sounds though, programming sounds horrid at this stage.

alex


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## dcoscina (Aug 5, 2012)

I'm really not jazzed by the sound of this lib. Like some others I think VSL did it right the first time. I do have Cinewinds and think its good but VSL is still my go to lib. Passed on Hollywood Brass and will pass on this. Like Shearmur as a composer though.


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## Cinescores (Aug 15, 2012)

Actually I thought that the newest demo "Saying Goodbye" sounded pretty good. This one nearly convinced me not to cancel my preorder. Unfortunately they removed it after only a few days.

Has anyone here worked with this library so far and would like to share their opinion? I am very happy with my Hollywood Strings and Brass and so the woodwinds seemed to be a logical addition - but after listening to the first two demos and the video walkthrough I thought it would be better to wait and see how the library compares to the competition.

It seems to be difficult to get unbiased opinions on EW products on this forum, though


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## Inductance (Aug 15, 2012)

I've had HOW Diamond for well over a week now. So far, I am pretty happy with it. I think soundwise, it fits right in with the rest of the Hollywood series. I'm still getting used to the feel of it, though (as I have to with any new library).


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 15, 2012)

The upcoming HOW update features new patches called Full and Full N in both the Legato and Long folders for Alto Flute, Bassoon, Contrabassoon, English Horn, Flute, Flute 2, Oboe, and Piccolo, that use cc1 for vibrato and cc11 for volume. They are really expressive and personally, what I needed most. It also addresses some legato speed triggering issues. This is going to be a great update


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## Inductance (Aug 15, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 15 said:


> The upcoming HOW update features new patches called Full and Full N in both the Legato and Long folders for Alto Flute, Bassoon, Contrabassoon, English Horn, Flute, Flute 2, Oboe, and Piccolo, that use cc1 for vibrato and cc11 for volume. They are really expressive and personally, what I needed most. It also addresses some legato speed triggering issues. This is going to be a great update



Awesome! I can't wait to try this out...


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## Revson (Aug 15, 2012)

> I was actually *complimenting *VSL. I already explained in previous posts that the reason why VSL sounds better is that they *do *record the full note afterwards



Not the case for all VSL, at least not Appassionata strings. Some transition samples are reused and crossfaded. Certainly less noticeable on a section however.


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## Gerd Kaeding (Aug 15, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 15 said:


> The upcoming HOW update features new patches called Full and Full N in both the Legato and Long folders for Alto Flute, Bassoon, Contrabassoon, English Horn, Flute, Flute 2, Oboe, and Piccolo, that use cc1 for vibrato and cc11 for volume. They are really expressive and personally, what I needed most. It also addresses some legato speed triggering issues.



Halle ... ( Berry ) ... luyah ....


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## Lupez (Aug 21, 2012)

greetings.
Is the Hollywood Gold series (Strings - Brass - Winds) suitable to use with an older CoreDuo2 iMac with 4gbs of RAM and external 7200 drive?

thanks


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## mark812 (Aug 21, 2012)

Lupez @ Tue Aug 21 said:


> greetings.
> Is the Hollywood Gold series (Strings - Brass - Winds) suitable to use with an older CoreDuo2 iMac with 4gbs of RAM and external 7200 drive?
> 
> thanks



Nope.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 21, 2012)

There is a new hotfiix update available 1.0.2.

http://www.soundsonline.com/Downloads


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## P.T. (Aug 21, 2012)

Rob Elliott @ Wed Jul 25 said:


> Agreed on the walk-through. Save your money - keep the price low and just play 20 secs of each instrument - various articulations. That is ALWAYS all I ever need to access and part with my hard earned cash.
> 
> Sadly - I realize within just a few minutes if a purchase was good or bad by walking through here. Oh yea, 'if' I had time and/or desire I could program my way through various libraries' weaknessess......but, really have neither. :wink:



This is what I would like as well.

Maybe more than 20 seconds, though.

Some full demos, in addition would be OK too.

After listening to the Hollywood Strings demos I still can't tell if I want them because those demos are more demos of brass and percussion.
The strings seem more of an afterthought.

Why not string demos that are strings and woodwind demos that are woodwinds?


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