# Zimmer Thread



## choc0thrax (Jan 9, 2012)

Hmm good title, right? Anyways...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2cXWtFknQlg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... cXWtFknQlg)


Tsk tsk tsk.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 9, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief*



choc0thrax @ Mon Jan 09 said:


> Hmm good title, right? Anyways...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2cXWtFknQlg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... cXWtFknQlg)
> 
> ...



Is it though? Really? It's a one chord ostinato with different notes and in Zimmer's case, sound design. They have a similar tempo and a swooshing sound before it. Then the Zimmer track goes its own way.

I mean, maybe he can't think up his own tempos any more, I don't know.


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## RiffWraith (Jan 9, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief*

Yep.

But the same can be said for _alot_ of composers. It's not just him.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 9, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief*

Sorry, but dumb thread. A little research will show that Hans has already stated that he used a sample from a recording of Edith Piaf to anchor his writing in the soundtrack. Given what he did with it, how well the concept was realized, I wish more composers would 'steal' this way! =o 

Please edit the title of this thread.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 9, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief*



Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Jan 09 said:


> Sorry, but dumb thread. A little research will show that Hans has already stated that he used a sample from a recording of Edith Piaf to anchor his writing in the soundtrack. Given what he did with it, how well the concept was realized, I wish more composers would 'steal' this way! =o
> 
> Please edit the title of this thread.



That was Inception and Je Ne Regret Rein, Ned - this is the Dark Knight and the other score is from an old film ABOUT Piaf, it's a different thing.

Still think it's a non-thread though!


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## lamandolina (Jan 9, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief*

I really don't like Zimmer, but the piece that you say is just an atmosphere, I think that all the composer are Thief, we use always the same chords, movements, orchestrations, etc, It have happened all the time from Vivaldi till Rachmaninoff, so I think that Zimmer thief Zimmer, he use this kind of atmospheres too much for me, but the other piece that you mark as the original I can say that is a copy of the Liszt Mephisto Waltz, and also the first part of Superman March.....so....let's take just as an influence...


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## choc0thrax (Jan 9, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief*



Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Jan 09 said:


> Sorry, but dumb thread. A little research will show that Hans has already stated that he used a sample from a recording of Edith Piaf to anchor his writing in the soundtrack. Given what he did with it, how well the concept was realized, I wish more composers would 'steal' this way! =o
> 
> Please edit the title of this thread.



Yeah, I probably read that actually. Have a terrible memory.


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## jamwerks (Jan 9, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief*

Pretty obvious stealing imo. May have been a temp track that the director had, and Hans just "redid" :mrgreen: it.

And as we all know lots of underwritters work with Zimmer, so maybe just one of them got overly inspired :idea: from the other piece.

True that the Batman version takes off elsewhere, but the dna seems to have come from the earlier piece. Thats really arranging, not composing !


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## reddognoyz (Jan 9, 2012)

That is one inflammatory header though.


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## choc0thrax (Jan 9, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief?*

Don't worry, I added a question mark. Makes it all okay.


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## bryla (Jan 9, 2012)

like FOX


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 9, 2012)

We all steal from wherever that place is we tap into in order to let music flow through us. And that's coming from an atheist.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 9, 2012)

What a fraud! Worse than Madoff! Sentence him!


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## Ed (Jan 9, 2012)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..


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## kgdrum (Jan 9, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief?*

If I remember correctly didn't Igor Stravinsky say " Good composers borrow,Great composers steal". 

Yes I agree, a silly post.


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## Ed (Jan 9, 2012)

Someone should play this game with Williams and some Holst and Star Wars 

I bet if you put Stravinsky's Rite of String over some Star Wars scenes, switching from Williams to Stravinsky, most people wouldnt even notice. Then they can do that with Holst as well


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## choc0thrax (Jan 9, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief?*

Congrats, you are the 529,187,028th music related forum member to use that quote. Unfortunately we are all out of Ipad 2's right now, but if we get more in stock you will be notified with instructions on how to receive your prize.


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## kgdrum (Jan 9, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief?*

I can't wait!!! o-[][]-o


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## studioj (Jan 9, 2012)

I think there must be some sort of unspoken truce in the film world for "borrowing" music... this sort of thing would never fly in other commercial music ventures. But also we'll never know if some sort of compensation was given to the original composer. Couldn't he have at least done it in a diff key?!


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## Kralc (Jan 9, 2012)

studioj @ Mon Jan 09 said:


> this sort of thing would never fly in other commercial music ventures.



I hope that's sarcasm.


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## Aaron Sapp (Jan 9, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief?*

I reckon people wouldn't care as much if these composers weren't making so much money off of their scores, eh?


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## midphase (Jan 10, 2012)

Just like the Inception horn blast, the spiccato motif (despite the same exact rhythmic accents) is not copyrightable and is open to reverse engineering.

Personally I don't really care all that much (although it does get annoying when the same old crap gets used ad nauseam in trailers etc.) but I do wish people weren't so obnoxious about proclaiming their genius when all they're doing is copying a pre-existing idea.

I mean seriously...what's wrong with just being honest for once and admitting that you didn't just invent the wheel? Never mind, it is Hollywood after all...admitting that you got your ideas from somewhere else would mean putting into doubt the reason why studios are willing to pay millions of dollars for your brilliant mind.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 10, 2012)

Francis Lai score - a D drone then A, B, D, F#

Zimmer score - a D drone then C.

So... its the same pattern in the 16th ostinato (a very well used rhythm), the same tempo and the same key. 

Dull thread.


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## paoling (Jan 10, 2012)

The Francis Lai piece rocks..!


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## Lex (Jan 10, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> Francis Lai score - a D drone then A, B, D, F#
> 
> Zimmer score - a D drone then C.
> 
> ...



It's the idea, an original combination of rhythm and sound color, that has been simply taken as a starting idea and foundation of Joker's theme....which makes it bad, real bad.

alex


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## George Caplan (Jan 10, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief?*



choc0thrax @ Mon Jan 09 said:


> Don't worry, I added a question mark. Makes it all okay.



:lol: :lol: :lol: 


thats great


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## lux (Jan 10, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief?*

well i always found in this man's music some remembrances with a lot film music from 1975 to recent times , at least intention-wise


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## handz (Jan 10, 2012)

Ed @ Mon Jan 09 said:


> Someone should play this game with Williams and some Holst and Star Wars
> 
> I bet if you put Stravinsky's Rite of String over some Star Wars scenes, switching from Williams to Stravinsky, most people wouldnt even notice. Then they can do that with Holst as well



cough cough

this is very common myth that is simply based on fact that in SW movies there were temp tracks from those composers and Williams had to compose music like this but in fact there are no real rip offs of compositions only similar mood (and sorry, SW action music is better than repetitive Mars) 

But there are many cases coposers steals or "borrow" exact part of classical composition, I dont know how it is with Zimmers Lion King but Mozarts Dies Irae is simply there (OK Dies Irae ios old chant but the rendition in movie sounds very close like Mozarts) 

as about Batman - this is silly - you probably would found many similar compositions like this before Dark Knight, even as I dont like Zimmers music this case is OK for me.


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## George Caplan (Jan 10, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief?*



poseur @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> i actually care about composers' efforts & intentions towards originality,
> even when faced with killer temp-scores.



a lot of listeners get mixed up with orchestration and notation it seems to me. like the original example in the top of this thread is nothing really like the score to dark knight which to me is a nothing score anyway. its just a rhythmic set of a string section.

take this film thats coming out right now. a lot of people say this is like lark ascending. to me its more like a shropshire lad. but its not. its the same orchestration as vaughn williams or george butterworth MAY have used: almost a facsimile if you like. but its definitely not the same notation. and legally anyone would have a hard job in a court of law over similar orchestration methinks. notation is entirely different. you could use the same or very similar notes and rhythm and orchestrate entirely differently and still get into litigation and come off negative.

with a score like the one below why wouldnt you use vaugnan williams or butterworth style and color for that type of movie and setting? i would given the skill sets required.

influence definitely but thats all it is.  


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT59FgzIVfQ


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 10, 2012)

I guess Mozart was consistently ripping off Haydn, his teacher, because it is by and large the same orchestration and they sound so similar.

So Mozart=thief?

Oh, and the same for early Beethoven.


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## Ed (Jan 10, 2012)

handz @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> cough cough
> 
> this is very common myth that is simply based on fact that in SW movies there were temp tracks from those composers and Williams had to compose music like this but in fact there are no real rip offs of compositions only similar mood (and sorry, SW action music is better than repetitive Mars)



Not sure why it would make any difference what the temp was, but I was thinking more about Holst' Neptune, but mostly Stravinsky. There's a LOT of Rite of Spring that sounds practically identical to parts of Star Wars.

I also remember a while ago someone posted a classical piece that sounded at least as much like Harry Potter's theme as this OP's example sounds . Wish I could remember what it was called. Sometimes I'll be with my mum driving somewhere and she will have classical radio on and suddenly some random classical piece will make me go, OMG I see where Williams got THAT idea from!



> But there are many cases coposers steals or "borrow" exact part of classical composition, I dont know how it is with Zimmers Lion King but Mozarts Dies Irae is simply there (OK Dies Irae ios old chant but the rendition in movie sounds very close like Mozarts)



I remember looking at that piece and not really thinking it was close enough to me, rather more inspired by rather than copying. 



> as about Batman - this is silly - you probably would found many similar compositions like this before Dark Knight, even as I dont like Zimmers music this case is OK for me.



Yea and I also think you can take music that sounds similar to something else and do this A/B thing and it subconsciously makes it sound much worse than it is. 

Ed


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 10, 2012)

A bit far from our typical subjects, but my favourite thief of all is Robert Johnson, because every song he stole (most), he made much better.


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## Ed (Jan 10, 2012)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> A bit far from our typical subjects, but my favourite thief of all is Robert Johnson, because every song he stole (most), he made much better.



Kinda like the whole James Bond theme theft thing, remember? The original idea Barry used was pretty terrible in its original form.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 10, 2012)

Ed @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > A bit far from our typical subjects, but my favourite thief of all is Robert Johnson, because every song he stole (most), he made much better.
> ...



What's that, Ed? I don't know of any version before the original classic, credited to J Barry and Monty Norman.


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## Ed (Jan 10, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> Ed @ Tue Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Jan 10 said:
> ...



I actually am referring to Monty Norman, who sued the hell out of Barry from what I remember, and won.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 10, 2012)

Ed @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> I actually am referring to Monty Norman, who sued the hell out of Barry from what I remember, and won.



Well, I've just had a Wikipedia / Youtube rummage - fascinating stuff.

So Monty Norman wrote this, for an abandoned musical - this sounds too good a recording to be the original, mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6EuzGhIyRQ&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6EuzGhI ... re=related)

Someone on youtube did a mash up of various John Barry songs / arrangements that predate bond, to hear his influence, which is quite fun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jjywVmz2EI&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jjywVmz ... re=related)

Basically, as far as I can tell from all that, Norman wrote that guitar riff (even if it was originally for sitar), so end of discussion. That's why he won the court case no doubt. However, everything else about the theme is totally Barry. They are joint credited now, aren't they? Even though it may look unfair, I guess it's the right outcome.


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## Gusfmm (Jan 10, 2012)

handz @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> Ed @ Mon Jan 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Someone should play this game with Williams and some Holst and Star Wars
> ...



Yeah, well, whatever you say. But JW certainly caught the essence of the "mood" quite closely, a bit too closely if you asked me... cough cough


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## JohnG (Jan 10, 2012)

Ed @ 10th January 2012 said:


> I actually am referring to Monty Norman, who sued the hell out of Barry from what I remember, and won.



The story I read was that Barry wrote the Bond theme (based on a piece he'd already composed called "Bees Knees") and they cut it in all over the place into the movie, much to Barry's surprise. However, Monty Norman asserted his contractual right to be listed as the composer of all the music in the film, even though in fact he didn't write the theme. As a result, MN still gets listed as the composer of the Bond theme even though it was Barry's.

Pretty sure this version of the story is from "On the Track."


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 10, 2012)

JohnG @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> Ed @ 10th January 2012 said:
> 
> 
> > I actually am referring to Monty Norman, who sued the hell out of Barry from what I remember, and won.
> ...



Well, that first link in my previous post is apparently Monty Norman from 1955 - and it IS the riff. On a sitar, mind. Quite hideous. And Dr No was 1962. Still, Barry stole his own intro from an Adam Faith song in 1960 too.

From reading around, there are many versions of what actually happened. In the end, all you can really go on is any recorded evidence - and Norman has a solid claim on the riff, however daft it may have sounded in the original incarnation. Which I think was Ed's original point!


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## re-peat (Jan 10, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief?*

These petty games of trying to finding out who ‘stole’ what from who, are utterly ridiculous in my opinion. Like I said in another thread: accusing (great) composers of stealing is, I think, one of the more small-minded and musically idiotic activities one can indulge in. And it seems to me, more often than not, to be the favourite pastime of insecure and frustrated mediocrities, usually in a pathetic attempt to bring the art of musicmaking down to the uncreative, unimaginative level on which they themselves operate: _the level where the musical creativity is so poor and so banal that the idea of stealing, or being original, actually matters_.

And it’s this last sentence that is key. To a truly talented, self-confident composer, being ‘original’ (in the sense of: only working with so-called ‘original’ ideas) doesn’t matter. Well, not in the sense that most people think, assume or insist that it should matter, anyway. First of all, a truly talented, self-confident composer invariably knows that his gift, his identity, his language is always original, even if he uses an unoriginal vocabularly. Him simply being him, that’s the purest, profoundest form of originality right there. And secondly: it’s only in the sum total of the music that the value or greatness of a work is defined, not in the isolated musical ingredients (some of which may or may not be entirely original). Thirdly: orginality is, in itself, not a musical (or artistic) parameter. It is, in itself, completely devoid of any artistic value and it’s only of interest to those who like to read footnotes in art- or music-history books.

There isn’t a single great composer that is remembered mainly because he was original. They are remembered for the simple reason that they created fabulous music. ‘Being original’ doesn’t even enter into it when history makes its verdict. And whenever it does, you’ll find that it’s always related to second-rate figures who need something as trivial as ‘originality’ to substantiate some claim to fame.
If Picasso had only been an ‘original’ and nothing else, his name would never have appeared on the list of greatest artists of all time. If Beethoven, Debussy or Prokofiev didn’t have anything to offer beyond ‘original ideas’, they’d all be minor, probably forgotten figures in the history of music. Thelonious Monk, a famous ‘original’, hasn’t earned his place in the history books because he was an original, but because he created music of lasting beauty with that remarkable talent of his. There must have been hundreds of other musicians with a similar innovative approach to music as he had, but for some reason unable to turn their 'vision' into something of enduring quality. Their names will never be known.

Being ‘original’ may give you a few years of fame, sure, maybe a few decades even (especially in superficial times such as the one we’re currently living in), but if there’s nothing of lasting substance underneath the originality, oblivion inevitably awaits you.
Anyone worth remembering, is someone who had ‘something lasting’ to say, but whether that ‘something lasting’ happened to be formulated in an original way or not, is entirely unimportant and irrelevant.

Even if bits of, say, ‘Star Wars’ are derived from ‘The Sacre’, even if bits from ‘E.T.’ are clearly sourced from Hanson’s 3rd symphony, that doesn’t take anything away from the fact that the music in which these bits are integrated, is clearly and unmistakeably ‘Williams music’. In other words: it’s not the Hanson- or Stravinsky-echoes which define (the quality of) the music of ‘E.T.’ or ‘Star Wars’, it’s how Williams turns these elements into ‘Williams music’ that matters. It’s the presence of Williams in this music that gives it its lasting quality and appeal, not the presence of any other composer.

_


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 10, 2012)

Once again, I find myself in agreement with Piet. Alternate universe has taken over, I guess


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## handz (Jan 10, 2012)

Gusfmm @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> handz @ Tue Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed @ Mon Jan 09 said:
> ...



Closely but it is not sound same, you found 10000 closly sounding parts in many classical music compositions, this is normal, especialyl if someone told you he want it to sound like something else. But there are cases when complete melody or riffs are ripped which is problem for me, not mood / style inspiration.


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## handz (Jan 10, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> JohnG @ Tue Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed @ 10th January 2012 said:
> ...




It was very complicated with the Bond theme, I remmber reading tons of articles last year after Barry passed, the case was still open, he was hired to redone Bond soundtrack after Norman was fired as studio does not liked his stuff, but they paid him for some material I think - Barry then used some of his material creating the classic Bond theme, but it is very complicated to tell what he composed and what was there before, in the Normans song - yes it sounds like Bond and it is probably the source of inspiration, but you cant never tell, in that time many many music sounded like this...


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## Ed (Jan 10, 2012)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..


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## jleckie (Jan 10, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief?*

Piets post is the best post ive read in quite some time.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 10, 2012)

Great composers, bad composers, all human. Stealing is as rare or common in the arts as in the rest of the world of humans. Of course great artists have/will steal. They also go poop. Please don't put the greats beyond the reach of all the good and bad that is in us all.
BTW, I'm not condoning the act, but I understand what can happen under crazy deadlines, or just within the entire career of a full-time composer.


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## handz (Jan 10, 2012)

Ed @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Tue Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Which I think was Ed's original point!
> ...



Well Ed, I still dont know, I overally think that Rite of spring is very, very overrated in its influence on classical music, there were tons of atonal, avantgard, crazy music before the golden movie scores were made and so far I see it bit lame to compare all that is not sound "classical" to Stravinsky. 

I would like to hear the examples you think will crossfade so well, I still think those pasages are just inspired by the the overal mood and style not copy of the original. re-peat said totalyl correct "Even if bits of, say, ‘Star Wars’ are derived from ‘The Sacre’, even if bits from ‘E.T.’ are clearly sourced from Hanson’s 3rd symphony, that doesn’t take anything away from the fact that the music in which these bits are integrated, is clearly and unmistakeably ‘Williams music’. "

The Lion Kings "to die for" it is same way inspired by Requiem clearly, in one moment it is very close that you must remind it immediately but of course otherwise it is totally different not a steal. Williams is easy to compare to classical music because he is creating music in very classical way, Zimmer is by any means not so close to classical composing so when he borrows from classical it is more obvious IMO. Anyway not Zimmer or Williams are not the composers who I would tell are stealing from Classical most, there are more serious cases. BTW was there any statement from Horner about using Khachaturian in Aliens (and probably many more his Scores) this is not inspiration but direct copy (and Uncredited!!)


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## wladi (Jan 10, 2012)

Sounds like a typical "temp track" inspiration 

There are much more extreme examples out there, such as: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zM7OTumxLEQ

V.S.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nz0b4STz1lo


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## StrezovSampling (Jan 10, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief?*

... or this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5YwHm7sYg4 

to be honest, I'm not a huge Hans Zimmer fan, but you should admit guys that sometimes it's not the composer's call - don't forget that 80% of the time we're hired to meet certain requirements from various people, most of them - people that don't have any idea or taste for music. 

But it's our profession I guess.


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## David Story (Jan 10, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief?*

Thanks for a great post, Piet. It's what you do with the idea that makes all the difference. 
BUT, we live in a world where corporate ownership tries to crush the normal flow of ideas. So today Mozart might get sued by Haydn's publisher. Williams usually borrows from PD composers, so he's pretty safe.

One of my favorite examples is when he transmogrifies "When You Wish Upon A Star" for "Close Encounters". That's credited as an "interpolation". It's more than that, but Disney was placated. CEOT3K is underrated because of the other picture he scored that year...

The James Bond Theme could have two composers, and the problem would be solved. But Monty derives his income from that copyright, and I think there's pride at stake too. Technically, the theme is in several sections, some by Barry, and the overall design is his. Artistically, he deserves a credit. But the case was decided, both times, on the grounds that part of the theme was by Norman, which is true.

Credits are a touchy subject in Hollywood.

HZ is one of the great producers. I like him best in that role.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 11, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief?*



David Story @ Wed Jan 11 said:


> The James Bond Theme could have two composers, and the problem would be solved. But Monty derives his income from that copyright, and I think there's pride at stake too. Technically, the theme is in several sections, some by Barry, and the overall design is his. Artistically, he deserves a credit. But the case was decided, both times, on the grounds that part of the theme was by Norman, which is true.



That's the part I don't understand. That famous rise/fall semitone intro, used and re-used in almost every Bond score, is identical in the 1960 John Barry / Adam Faith tune. I'd have thought that co-authorship was a sensible judgement.


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## mpalenik (Jan 17, 2012)

handz @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> cough cough
> 
> this is very common myth that is simply based on fact that in SW movies there were temp tracks from those composers and Williams had to compose music like this but in fact there are no real rip offs of compositions only similar mood (and sorry, SW action music is better than repetitive Mars)



Ok, not Star Wars, but 2:50: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PN3UeuyN84 :D


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## Ed (Jan 17, 2012)

wladi @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> Sounds like a typical "temp track" inspiration
> 
> There are much more extreme examples out there, such as:
> 
> ...



Wow thats ballsey considering Zimmer was sued by the Holst guys hahaha


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## Ed (Jan 17, 2012)

handz @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> I would like to hear the examples you think will crossfade so well, I still think those pasages are just inspired by the the overal mood and style not copy of the original. re-peat said totalyl correct "Even if bits of, say, ‘Star Wars’ are derived from ‘The Sacre’, even if bits from ‘E.T.’ are clearly sourced from Hanson’s 3rd symphony, that doesn’t take anything away from the fact that the music in which these bits are integrated, is clearly and *unmistakeably ‘Williams music’. *"



Well I dont agree since listening to those pieces Im talking about, it sounds like Williams, but since they came first, then its Williams that sounds like them.

I agree that generally Williams still has a sound, even if he nicks things from classical music. As I think I said I usually like Williams way more than what he was inspired by, my point though is I dont think its any better than the OP's example with Zimmer. Im saying I dont think this example proves anything about Zimmer that cant be said for loads of other composers like Williams.


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## germancomponist (Jan 17, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> Once again, I find myself in agreement with Piet. Alternate universe has taken over, I guess



+1


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## PhJ (Jan 18, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jan 10 said:


> I guess Mozart was consistently ripping off Haydn, his teacher, because it is by and large the same orchestration and they sound so similar.
> 
> So Mozart=thief?
> 
> Oh, and the same for early Beethoven.



Wait, what ??
Haydn wasn't Mozart teacher, was he ?!!
They met in 1784, Mozart was almost 30y old.


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## re-peat (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief?*

Ed,

Forgive me, but in my opinion, you’re making two mistakes. The first is that you reduce music to a collection of ideas. Music — good music anyway — is much more than that. And the second one, if you permit me, is that you attribute musical value to the originality of those ideas. 

‘Ideas’, in music — as in all art — are, ultimately, _superficialities_. A good idea, on its own, doesn’t necessarily make great music, just like a good idea doesn’t make a great painting or a great poem. (And a good composer knows that. That’s why great composers will always look for the ‘right’ ideas, and ‘right’ may not necessarily mean ‘the most original one’.)
While those ideas may, or may not, have a musical appeal in themselves — in the case of an inspired Williams, they usually have —, the real beauty, the real power of great music only emerges once those ideas start to live inside the framework of a piece. That’s what’s really interesting, not the ideas on their own. And you need a composer of exceptionnal talent to make that happen in a musically satisfying way. Again: where the ideas originate from, is largely immaterial (unless they originate from other ideas within the music itself, which can be very fascinating to observe), it’s what happens after the ideas are in place, that’s musically most rewarding.

Take the ‘Raiders’ march for instance. To me, that is a musical success of the highest order and I’ll tell you why: not only are the musical ideas (the melodic, rhythmic and harmonic ingredients, in other words) remarkably inspired — which provides a first layer of musical satisfaction (even if that is a relatively superficial layer, compared to musical sophistication of the piece as a whole) —, but the way in which Williams combines and balances the various ‘musical cells’ of this piece — resulting in an amazingly perfect balance of musical shapes, tension, release, contrasts and motion — that's what makes this march rise far above the level of mere pleasant tunefulness. And this is what makes Williams’ best music so great, in my opinion. Not the tunes as such (great and exciting though many of them are), not the orchestration (perfectly judged though most of it is), not the isolated musical components (original or otherwise), not its power to trigger every imagineable emotion with almost unfailing precision, … no, it’s the way in which his best music effortlessly transcends the banality of ‘good ideas’. That, to me, is by far its most impressive asset. 
And this is also the foundation of my entire argument here: _great music (or great art, if you like) always transcends the banality of 'good ideas'._

So, you’ll understand, I hope, that the fact that Williams occasionaly assimilates an idea from somewhere else, is entirely trivial and irrelevant in light of amazing musicanship with which he transforms and weaves those ideas into the fabric of his music. _His music._ (Despite the obvious presence of Stravinsky in certain cues from ‘Jaws’ or 'Star Wars', it is always undeniably Williams’ music. Like I said before: the very thing that makes this music as great as it is, is not the hand of Stravinsky, it’s the hand of Williams.)

And, by the way, given the fairly conservative and backwards-looking nature of Williams’ musical language, it is actually quite remarkable, I find, how rarely he incorporates material that is not of his own invention. 

Other example to illustrate the relationship between ‘isolated idea’ and ‘blossoming music’: the first movement of Beethoven’s Fifth is not about the _‘ta-ta-ta-daa’_ motive itself — which, striking though it is, is not exactly the most breathtaking sequence of notes ever created —, but it’s about the journey this motive is made to undertake, the friends and enemies it meets along the way, the musical quarrels and reconciliations which occur and, finally, the way in which this exciting musical argument is resolved in a completely satisfying conclusion. In other words: it’s about Beethoven distilling, from the tiniest of musical motives, an incredibly rich and multi-layered musical structure (not just that first movement, but in fact an entire four-movement symphony), music which, throughout the entire piece, has its own inner pulsating _‘logic of inevitability’_ (and this ‘logic of inevitability’ is, to me, the highest possible achievement in music).
So you see, it’s not the idea itself that matters all that much, and even less its origins — even if dilligent musicologists would ever be able to trace the _‘ta-ta-ta-daa’_ back to an earlier composer, that wouldn’t diminish Beethoven’s achievement in the least — it’s the musical organism that Beethoven creates from this idea, which is what this music is all about.

I’m not saying that Williams’ music for ‘Star Wars’ or ‘Jaws’ has the same structural scope or depth as Beethoven’s Fifth (given the purpose and function of Williams' music, that would be a rather unfair and absurd demand to make), but in his best music, Williams’ most enduring appeal (to me anyway) is based on a similar qualities: _(1)_ an absolutely perfect sense of which ideas are required and the ability to provide those ideas (usually his own, although sometimes and for various reasons, from somewhere else), _(2)_ the astounding level of craft, creativity and inspiration with which he breathes lives into those ideas, and _(3)_, combining these first two qualities into music which, in its best moments, transcends the musical value of its own ideas and has this wondrous, incomprehensible and unanalyseable ‘logic of inevitability’.

And that is why, in my opinion, the occasional appearance of other composers’ ideas in Williams’ work shouldn’t be regarded as an inspirational weakness, but rather be enjoyed as a most fascinating bonus.

I defy anyone here with the following challenge: you can pinch any ideas you like, from whomever you like, and then build a solid piece of music with those ideas, _something that you are really proud of_. Just try it and see how far you get. The excercise will quickly reveal not only how difficult this actually is, but also how painfully narrow-minded it is to reduce certain pieces of a composer like Williams to being ‘acts of thievery’.

_


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## Ed (Jan 18, 2012)

Re-peat Im not sure you understand me, Im not criticising Williams at all, Im saying that people cant criticise Zimmer for the example in the OP without at the same time also criticising composers like Williams for the same thing.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 18, 2012)

There are those who talk and those who do. Those who do are too busy doing to have time to spend on a forum discussing whether composer A or B is doing it properly in accordance with their theoretical values.

Just my opinion, of course.


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## re-peat (Jan 18, 2012)

Ed @ Wed Jan 18 said:


> (...) for the same thing.


Ed,

Well, that’s just it, you see: it _isn’t_ the same thing. And you certainly misjudge Williams if you really do believe that the two are comparable. 
Williams never settles for mere acquisition (with the single exception of "The Dune Sea Of Tatooine", which is indeed very closely modeled on the opening of the 2nd tableau of 'The Rite Of Spring’. The proverbial exception to the rule, I guess). 
Far more characteristically is what happens to Hanson’s music in "E.T.'s Adventures On Earth", for example: that is soooooo much more than simply transplanting other people’s music into one’s own. This cue (and the entire score) is inspired musicmaking of the highest calibre. And not Hanson's, but Williams'. Or the way Stravinsky's idiom is assimilated to become the brutal musical engine that drives 'Jaws' is, again, a creative tour de force the credit for which has to go entirely to Williams.
The way classical composers appear ‘completely re-williamsed’ in Williams’ music — Prokofiev in ‘Superman’, Debussy in ‘Hook’, Berlioz in ‘Last Crusade’, … — is never the act of an uninspired, tired, lazy or dishonest composer, but rather the exact opposite in fact.

Putting that on the same level of the Zimmer-Lai connection, is just wrong. It simply doesn’t make any musical sense. Mind you, I absolutely don’t mind Zimmer reworking other composers’ ideas (for all the reasons mentioned earlier) and I certainly don’t consider it a sign of musical weakness. Not in the least. (Zimmer has already shown more than enough, I think, that he is also a musician of remarkable creative powers.) But it *is* fundamentally different from what Williams does.

_


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## David Story (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief?*

A composer works with themes, techniques and performers to make music.
A producer works with artists, technicians and financiers to make a product.

John Williams is a composer.


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## YuHirà (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief?*



> Francis Lai score - a D drone then A, B, D, F#



Actually, there is not a D drone in Francis Lai's score: the D drone a the beginning of the video belongs to *Dark Knight*, not *Edith et Marcel* :wink:


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## Ed (Jan 18, 2012)

Well re-peat, quite possibly i am just too ignorant to know as much as you do, but when I listen to parts of Neptune I feel like Im literally listening to a track from Star Wars. When i listen to parts of The Rite Of Spring i feel like Im listening to a track from Star Wars. So Im afraid maybe my tiny baby brain cant tell the difference, but to me its not so different from what the OPs example is showing.

Ed






re-peat @ Wed Jan 18 said:


> Ed @ Wed Jan 18 said:
> 
> 
> > (...) for the same thing.
> ...


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## Udo (Jan 18, 2012)

Guess what this refers to: "Unlike our own age, which prizes originality, the 18th century gave its greatest accolades to those able to master the art of imitation, ......".


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## jleckie (Jan 18, 2012)

Ed @ Wed Jan 18 said:


> Well re-peat, quite possibly i am just too ignorant to know as much as you do, but when I listen to parts of Neptune I feel like Im literally listening to a track from Star Wars. When i listen to parts of The Rite Of Spring i feel like Im listening to a track from Star Wars.



I suppose some people think Edgar Varese sounds like Igor Stravinsky too...


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## snowleopard (Jan 25, 2012)

I find myself agreeing with Wladi, that it's more temp track love. I'm sure one could go through many, many scores and find the same. 

Right off the top of my head I recall James Horner's score to Aliens prelude track having virtually the four note motif from Aram Khachaturian's Gayane Ballet and a similar style. I'm all but certain Cameron fell in love with Khachaturian, and had Horner try to match it. But do four notes of the same instrument equal plagiarism?! That's an absurd thought if you ask me. 

My only personal beef is that I think some of these composers could more outwardly credit their inspirations, after all they are making a lot of money from this. But I don't think that means they are thieves if they do not. Not at all.


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## G.R. Baumann (Feb 2, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief?*

Interesting thread, but in my view a bad choice of title.

I heard everything Hans has composed over the years, and I remember quotes from Wagner, Ravel and many more. Yes, I said quotes, because the "intelligent quotation" of existing classical music is a sign of the artist's maturity in my book. If they are not just darn obvious quotes, imitations or the likes of course.

I am convinced that it also can happen without direct intentions. In particular if it is something that is not so obvious, a tiny harmony progression from Vers la flamme hardly will be noticed by anyone but hard core Skriabin fans.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Mar 9, 2012)

hey people, more one:

listen 0:13: 





and:


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## schatzus (Mar 9, 2012)

Moderators: Thread rename needed...


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 9, 2012)

7-1-2-3-2-7-1 in the melody. This riff has probably been used in, oh, 6,000 cues/songs/lieders. Try it on the piano and you'll see that it's very natural to the fingers. Can we stop this now? Especially given that Hans was so generous with our community recently?
I sure hope no one goes head-hunting on me. I spend so little time wondering if my melodies have ever existed before - thank god!
It's called living within the diatonic/hooky world of popular music (in which I'll include most conventional soundtracks).


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 9, 2012)

schatzus @ 9/3/2012 said:


> Moderators: Thread rename needed...



I have a better idea: next person that gives us an example of 'thievery', and that have themselves written a bunch of cues we can hear, will have their own oeuvre taken apart by us and compared with the gazillion tracks on YouCrap until we find a match. In fact, someone will create an algorithm that does it automatically.

Give it a rest and go and try to write a truly original melody (that hasn't appeared in, say, the last 300 years of melodies) that people can hum and remember.


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## José Herring (Mar 9, 2012)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Mar 09 said:


> 7-1-2-3-2-7-1 in the melody. This riff has probably been used in, oh, 6,000 cues/songs/lieders. Try it on the piano and you'll see that it's very natural to the fingers. Can we stop this now? Especially given that Hans was so generous with our community recently?
> .



I vote for locking it down. This thread is very dismissive of a fellow forum member.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Mar 9, 2012)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Mar 09 said:


> 7-1-2-3-2-7-1 in the melody. This riff has probably been used in, oh, 6,000 cues/songs/lieders. Try it on the piano and you'll see that it's very natural to the fingers. Can we stop this now? Especially given that Hans was so generous with our community recently?
> I sure hope no one goes head-hunting on me. I spend so little time wondering if my melodies have ever existed before - thank god!
> It's called living within the diatonic/hooky world of popular music (in which I'll include most conventional soundtracks).



hey ned! not saying that Zimmer is a thief (bad topic name, btw!)

just showing how *different* people on *different* places composing *different* music genres can use *similar* notes (and the same tonality)


don't get me wrong, Hans is THE dude (Hans, JW and BH = THE dudes for me)


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 9, 2012)

Gabriel Oliveira @ 9/3/2012 said:


> just showing how *different* people on *different* places composing *different* music genres can use *similar* notes (and the same tonality.



I think that most of us already know that. All one has to do is listen to classical music for a week. Most of our most popular Pop/Rock melodies have already been written in the 18th or 19th Century.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Mar 9, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief?*

yeah, we all know that

just found (and shared) this curious black metal example, calm down o-[][]-o

p.s: i wasn't *searching* for that kind of ""plagiarism"" example... was listening to some Samael album and: "Hey, already listened this melody"


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 9, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief?*

OK, so to make it simple, I suggest you start a new thread and give it a cool title that doesn't have the word 'thief' in it. Everybody will be happy, except maybe Choco. :wink:


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Mar 9, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief?*



Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Mar 09 said:


> OK, so to make it simple, I suggest you start a new thread and give it a cool title that doesn't have the word 'thief' in it. Everybody will be happy, except maybe Choco. :wink:



nice advice, will do next time! sorry 8) 

(no sarcasm included)


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## choc0thrax (Mar 9, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief?*



Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Mar 09 said:


> OK, so to make it simple, I suggest you start a new thread and give it a cool title that doesn't have the word 'thief' in it. Everybody will be happy, except maybe Choco. :wink:



Why wouldn't I be happy? I like all Zimmer threads. I find they're usually pretty entertaining.


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## Ed (Mar 9, 2012)

Choco just wants to watch the world burn.


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## choc0thrax (Mar 9, 2012)

Ed @ Fri Mar 09 said:


> Choco just wants to watch the world burn.



Creepy, I was just listening to that cue like 20 minutes ago.


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## Ed (Mar 9, 2012)

Gabriel Oliveira @ Fri Mar 09 said:


> hey people, more one:
> 
> listen 0:13:



Gotta say, I didnt notice anything here. 

Yea, its mostly the same notes, but the phrasing is all wrong. As Ned says, if you're going to be this picky then you better not write any music of fear of someone finding a track that sounds vaguely similar in some random obscure way.


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## choc0thrax (Mar 9, 2012)

RiffWraith @ Fri Mar 09 said:


> choc0thrax @ Sat Mar 10 said:
> 
> 
> > That's why I was naked.
> ...



Hopefully Ed has some he can upload. I can only assume he hits print screen a lot during my live feeds.


Just wait till you see the pics of me pouring chocolate syrup on my thigh stretch marks. I'm like a chocolate tiger. Grrrowwllll.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 9, 2012)

Can you guys park your egos and continue this privately? It's not funny anymore, just boring.


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## flashman (Mar 10, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief?*

The title of the thread is libellous and does need to be changed. 

If we want people of stature to take part in discussions here, then we have to behave in a rather more grown up way than this. This forum has a lot of support in all echelons of the professional community and if it is to stay that way, then the moderators and admins need to step up.



http://www.website-law.co.uk/blog/defamation/dealing-with-defamatory-posts-on-your-website-forum-or-blog/ (http://www.website-law.co.uk/blog/defam ... m-or-blog/)


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## germancomponist (Mar 10, 2012)

josejherring @ Sat Mar 10 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Mar 09 said:
> 
> 
> > 7-1-2-3-2-7-1 in the melody. This riff has probably been used in, oh, 6,000 cues/songs/lieders. Try it on the piano and you'll see that it's very natural to the fingers. Can we stop this now? Especially given that Hans was so generous with our community recently?
> ...



+1


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## jlb (Mar 10, 2012)

*Re: Zimmer = thief?*

Why is this thread still on here? Hans was good enough to give his time to this forum. Please remove this thread.

Jlb


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## Craig Sharmat (Mar 10, 2012)

the thread is now locked and the useless banter removed, title changed etc. There is some great info in here so the thread shall remain.


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