# The Circle of Fifths



## synthpunk (Mar 23, 2016)

Could someone who understands theory please help simply explain The Circle of Fifths to a keyboard player and it's practical uses in composition ?

Thank you kindly!


----------



## bbunker (Mar 23, 2016)

The basic idea of the circle of fifths is that much of music is based on movement by fifths. The Dominant-Tonic movement is a fifth downward. The ii-V-I cadence is all motion by fifth. So, it's pretty darn important. There are whole jazz tunes with nothing but ii-V's in different keys. That's some serious movement by fifths.

So, the actual circle of fifths is just continuing to move in the same direction from the same place by fifth. If you start on a G, it's the five chord of C. Once you've played that, then you do the same thing again, but with C being the five chord, this time of F. You keep going, and eventually you're back at C, and you can keep yourself occupied until the sun burns up just going around in circles. Or, you can just practice the motion until you internalize it, I guess.

And it works for different chord types, because when you move in perfect fifths, you use up every chord. Want to practice voicing every minor chord? Just move each one by a perfect fifth. Well, move the root - you probably want to think a bit more about your voicing than just literally moving everything a fifth, but that's another conversation.

And it works for mixed chord types. Practice a minor going to a major chord and you've just done a ii-V. Move it by fifth, and you'll do it in all 12 keys. Put the sevenths in there. Make them m7b5 and 7b9 chords, and you've done ii-V's in every major and minor key by the time you're done.

You might ask "But bbunker, why don't I just move up and down chromatically? Why fifths?" Well - I'm glad you asked. You probably should do that too, by the way. But moving chromatically doesn't happen much in the wild. It's basically a way of practicing 'planing' the same shape between keys, and it'll come in handy, but one handy thing about moving by fifths is that if you voice-lead properly, then you'll move through all twelve keys, and also move through every INVERSION too, if you keep going. Which is a handy thing to practice, in case you were wondering.

And you don't have to only do perfect fifths - you can also do 'diatonic circles of fifths.' Same idea, but you keep everything inside the key. In C major, it would look like: 'Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7 - Fmaj7 - Bm7b5 - E7b9 - Am - (A7)' The A7 is just added on there to get you back to the Dm7. And that E7b9 isn't technically 'diatonic' for C, but it IS for A minor, so - well, you can play it as Em7 if you want to get your modal jam on. Now - what's interesting about this progression? Well, first of all, you've heard it a thousand times. A million if you've got much Vivaldi on your 'record shelf.' And if you look at the way the chords move, you've practiced a ii-V-I in both C and A minor, a turnaround (V7 - ii7 - V7 - I), and I-IV in that key. Do that in all twelve keys and you've pretty much practiced every big 'functional' progression that there is, in isolation. Good job you!

Cool. Stop reading now and start playing!


----------



## d.healey (Mar 23, 2016)

Lots of practical applications, start experimenting. If you're a jazz guy then playing around the circle is a great way to practice your II-V-Is in all keys.


----------



## Baron Greuner (Mar 23, 2016)

aesthete said:


> Could someone who understands theory please help simply explain The Circle of Fifths to a keyboard player and it's practical uses in composition ?
> 
> Thank you kindly!



Got to be honest and tell you never had any time or interest in the Circle of Fifths. Never having studied it, it's made no difference to my playing or composition. That doesn't mean it's no good and you shouldn't bother with it. It's been around for quite a long time afaik; may even been a tool for Baroque composers.


----------



## JJP (Mar 23, 2016)

Also, the addition of sharps in a key signature follows the circle of fifths:
C major = no sharps
G major = F#
D major = F#, C#
A major = F#, C#, G#
etc.

Addition of flats (or removal of sharps) follows the circle of fourths... which is nothing but the circle of fifths in reverse!
C major = no sharps or flats
F major = B-flat
Bb major = B-flat, E-flat
Eb major = B-flat, E-flat, A-flat
etc.

This means there are many relationships between keys and harmonies that are based on 5th/4th relationships. The strongest harmonic movement in Western music is the movement of a 5th -- V (5th scale degree/dominant) to I (1st scale degree/tonic). Most Western music theorists would agree that all traditional harmonic motion is based around the V-I relationship.

To that end, the circle of fifths is one of the foundations of traditional Western music theory.


----------



## ilja (Mar 23, 2016)

Hi, 

i think an easy explanation of the Circle of Fifths is that all keys you´re in are organized within this circle.
If you start at the key of C which has no accidentals, meaning only white keys, and you move up in fifths you´ll find the keys with sharps # as accidentals. So from C up a fifth is the key of G and that has one #, the F#. The seventh note always needs a #. Moving up a fifth from there is the key of D which has two #, F# and C#. And so forth. 
Moving down a fifth from C you´ll find the keys with flats (b). C down a fifth is F and this key has one b, in this case its the Bb, so the fourth note gets flatten. From F down a fifth is Bb and this one has two b, the Bb and the Eb. And so forth.

Knowing the keys and it´s accidentals is crucial for composing i guess...

I hope that helps,

Ilja


----------



## reddognoyz (Mar 23, 2016)

?????


----------



## KEnK (Mar 23, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> Got to be honest and tell you never had any time or interest in the Circle of Fifths. Never having studied it, it's made no difference to my playing or composition.


How do you know? 

To add to what JJP said-
The difference between any 2 keys a fifth apart is only one note.
ex- the difference between the keys of C and G is an F#
the difference between the keys of C and F is a Bb
So if you're playing a melodic phrase in the Key of C,
and you play an F# instead of an F, you're in the Key of G

This is useful for melodic modulations and knowing what chords reside in nearby keys
In the above examples, all 3 keys (C, G and F) include the triads, Amin and C.
When you look at only 2 nearby keys, there are more-
Keys of C and G each include C, Emin, G, Amin
Keys of C and F each include C, Dmin, F, Amin
The "modes" or upper harmonic tones are where it starts to get different-
In C- Amin is Aeolian
In F- Amin is Phrygian
In G- Amin is Dorian

Very useful tools for composers

k


----------



## dgburns (Mar 23, 2016)

reddognoyz said:


> ?????



this will be me in Mexico in a few weeks practicing my circle of Fifths 

-edit-

...and what Kenk said !!


----------



## ed buller (Mar 23, 2016)

The circle of fifths is what was behind almost all harmony from the Renaissance to the Romantic era. By the middle of Beethoven's output composers started to move toward movement by Thirds. This was made possible by dividing the octave evenly either by minor or major Thirds. The rise of diminished and augmented chords became far more common and therefore the distant keys became closer. Most film music has it's roots in this period of history. 

Perhaps the most obvious thing about music from the late romantic period is the sense of key is suspended. The tonality seems to float about. this reached it's peak in music by composers such as Debussy. Although he hated the term "Impressionistic" was often used to describe it. 

The circle of fifths tends to provide music with a very firm tonal center. Abrupt changes where discouraged and skill and finesse was required to move very far in either direction. Generally the use of chromatic chords became popular as a way of shortening the distances between remote keys. 

using thirds become very common with composer such as Liszt, Schubert, Berlioz and Chopin as a way of transposing both locally and over a large piece. 

It has it's drawbacks but the Tonnetz is a very immediate way of seeing the relationship between pitches. 





The lines running across from left to right are in fifths ( g,d,a,e,b,) the lines running down to the right are in Maj thirds (aug)...to the left are in minor (dim) Studying music that moves about by thirds rather than fifths is very helpful in film and media music. 

hope this helps

ed


----------



## Baron Greuner (Mar 23, 2016)

KEnK said:


> How do you know?
> 
> k



Because I've looked at it. But I haven't studied it.

But what I was also going to add but forgot, was that studying modes is a much better option. I have mentioned modes on numerous occasions here and they are very useful.

In the end though, just hear what's in your head and write it down. If it's then necessary to apply theoretical tools such as the Circle of Fifths and/or Modes, then it can't do any harm.

Too much theory can get in the way. Theory is like a good referee. It's there, but shouldn't really be noticed.


----------



## bryla (Mar 23, 2016)

Exactly! I have studied a lot of music theory and teach it on a weekly basis. I think I know my way around the circle of life.... uhh... fifths! (heck when I had trouble sleeping as a child I didn't count sheep; I wen't up all the double sharps and downward through all double flats of the circle.)

BUT: composing, arranging, orchestrating whatever I don't think of it one second. I don't care for it and don't see the need. Many of my students tell me, they can compose with the circle of fifths, and I don't see how.

It's a way of organizing the keys (major and their relative (what we call parallel) minors) and the organization – as JJP stated – of how the sharps and flats add up.

If I might add: the new sharp is always on the 7th degree, the new flat is always on the 4th degree. Guess what: That's a fifth apart too!!


----------



## KEnK (Mar 23, 2016)

The thing is a lot of people learn and have assimilated these tools through osmosis,
you end up knowing it more through instinctive use then study.
I've observed lots of rockers playing various modes and having no idea about the terminology-
but that doesn't mean they're not using them.

Knowledge is good
Ignorance, not so much.
Instinct can get you very far.
But Instinct and Knowledge will get you further.

k


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 23, 2016)

I'm looking at gerunds and deciding I'm more interested in adverbs.


----------



## Hans Adamson (Mar 24, 2016)

The closest relation between two notes (non-octave) is when their fundamentals' ratio is 3/2 (a 5th). For example 440Hz (A) and 660Hz (E). Notes with such ratio are considered consonant to a high degree because of the coincidence in harmonics and fundamentals between the two. Since the diatonic scales based on each of these notes are picked from the harmonics (overtones) of the note, these two harmonies are closely related, and moving between harmonies (chords) at a fifth's distance is perceived as "pleasant" and "related". So the organization of harmonies in a circle of fifths illustrates how closely related two scales/harmonies/chords are.


----------



## trumpoz (Mar 24, 2016)

When I'm writing I don't think I have ever used the Circle of 5ths. It is a fantastic tool to explain theoretical concepts. But in my opinion, like all music theory, it is not the be all and end all. Learn about it, play with it, internalise it and then disregard it unless you are looking for something specific. 

When I'm teaching (Senior High School), it is the basis for nearly all theoretical concepts, in particular scales/keys/chord construction, major/minor relationships and whatever else I can use it for.


----------



## TimCox (Mar 29, 2016)

You can't go telling people we don't use theory or anything when we write! The whole point of theory is so people think music is harder than it actually is


----------



## synergy543 (Mar 29, 2016)




----------



## Jon K (Apr 11, 2016)

Knowing some theory can sure be useful but youll start to find your best and original ideas come from breaking the rules and norms and not overthinking the theory. Personally I think theory is more useful for knowing what to do in order to achieve a certain style or sound quicker than it does actually helping actual melodies or arrangements themself.


----------



## Smikes77 (Apr 11, 2016)

TimCox said:


> You can't go telling people we don't use theory or anything when we write! The whole point of theory is so people think music is harder than it actually is



Music is already harder than people think it is!


----------



## JonFairhurst (Apr 11, 2016)

I don't write music with a circle of fifths, but you had better know it if you are doing jazz improv. Same with 2-5-1 resolution, 12-bar structures, etc. Learn the theory, learn what it sounds like, and when you hear it, be able to jam with the right notes.

Keep in mind that improvising a jazz solo is just like composing the next melody in a partially written piece - only you have to be able to compose it and perform it in real time. 

Speaking of which, I know a number of classically trained musicians who read music fluently but who don't improvise. They don't compose music either. I wonder if those who are drawn to composing tend to be comfortable with improvisation.


----------



## wpc982 (Apr 27, 2016)

Ed Buller's diagram is great for many reasons (see above). Note thate there are fifths in other places than straight horizontal lines! You can modulate to the same note from the same note in different ways. To get from D to F, following the circle of fifths, D - G - C - F gives an F of one sort ... following the third relation D - Bb - F gives a completely (imo) different F, tuned higher. Each will sound good in its place, but the smooth movement of one to the other has to be done differently. Equal temperament, of course, mashes all this together ... otherwise all those ii V I's would sound like the terrible things they really are.


----------

