# Cinematic Studio Brass?



## chrisphan

Just wondering if anyone has a clue when this library will come out? It says early 2017 on their website.


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## galactic orange

Nope. That is the big question, isn't it? No one except those working on it have a clue, and that'll probably be the case until released.


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## chrisphan

Yep I really hope they make it just a little more explicit. I'm working on a project right now with Kontakt default brass and really want to get some better samples for it. Don't know if I should keep waiting for CSB


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## Harry

An update from them might not be a bad idea. "Early 2017" suggests before the end of February. I know some people waiting on this but they can only wait so long without any information.


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## muziksculp

From The Cinematic Studio Series website :

*Quote :* "_The new Cinematic Studio Series will provide a comprehensive, consistent and realistic full set of orchestral libraries. We're proud to announce the immediate availability of the first two libraries in this groundbreaking collection: strings and piano. The next two instalments, Cinematic Studio Solo Strings and Cinematic Studio Brass, are both due for completion early in 2017. The final two releases, Cinematic Studio Woodwinds and Cinematic Studio Percussion will follow soon after_."

So, We should expect *Cinematic Studio Brass*, and *Cinematic Studio Solo Strings* soon !

Really excited to see them released soon.


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## chrisphan

So they updated the completion date from early to mid 2017 on their website: http://www.cinematicstudioseries.com/
Nooooo


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## Maestro1972

I'd rather wait for it with it meeting high expectations than to have them release it early and it fall flat. Don't need another so-so brass library.


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## SoNowWhat?

galactic orange said:


> Nope. That is the big question, isn't it? No one except those working on it have a clue, and that'll probably be the case until released.


Wait? What?
No teaser campaign?
#angrymad


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## SoNowWhat?

Maestro1972 said:


> I'd rather wait for it with it meeting high expectations than to have them release it early and it fall flat. Don't need another so-so brass library.


This x1000
Though I'm most interested to see Solo Strings.


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## kurtvanzo

I think they've learned the lesson of not making dates until they know it's solid and works well. Then they pop it out of nowhere -like CSS - there were no teasers or big announcements until it was ready for download. He even had a walkthrough and demos ready to go. I think the response was pretty tremendous. I really like it when the devloper doesn't hype and has a solid product out of the gate.


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## SoNowWhat?

kurtvanzo said:


> I think they've learned the lesson of not making dates until they know it's solid and works well. Then they pop it out of nowhere -like CSS - there were no teasers or big announcements until it was ready for download. He even had a walkthrough and demos ready to go. I think the response was pretty tremendous. I really like it when the devloper doesn't hype and has a solid product out of the gate.


Indeed.
My post above was meant to be heavy irony. I hope it translated. Also if I've mentioned a hashtag anywhere you can pretty much take it as read I'm trying to be funny (again that doesn't always translate).


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## dreamnight92

Alex answered on the CSS thread, the release has been delayed since the libraries required more work than planned. Solo strings should be ready soon, while for brass it seems we'llneed to wait a little more.

Edit: http://vi-control.net/community/threads/cinematic-studio-strings.54192/page-54#post-4066091


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## DanielBrunelle

Its November 8th now. Any updates?


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## Architekton

Can we expect CSB this Christmas or its more realistic to wait for it till Easter maybe?


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## leon chevalier

I'm hopping too that cs brass will be my Christmas present !
@Alex W ?


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## ctsai89

Lols bump!


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## desert

He just brought out Solo instruments, I doubt we would see it soon...


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## erica-grace

I dont own CSS. Are the instruments locked? If CSB is going to be locked, that would be a quick no-buy for me :(


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## NoamL

You mean the Kontakt scripts? Yeah it's locked if I recall, there's an awful lot going on under the hood. Why do you prefer unlocked sample libs?


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## erica-grace

No, not the scripts. Scripts locked is fine. I am talking the instruments (wrench).


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## desert

erica-grace said:


> No, not the scripts. Scripts locked is fine. I am talking the instruments (wrench).


Yes, It's locked


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## Reid Rosefelt

muziksculp said:


> From The Cinematic Studio Series website :
> 
> *Quote :* "_The new Cinematic Studio Series will provide a comprehensive, consistent and realistic full set of orchestral libraries. We're proud to announce the immediate availability of the first two libraries in this groundbreaking collection: strings and piano. The next two instalments, Cinematic Studio Solo Strings and Cinematic Studio Brass, are both due for completion early in 2017. The final two releases, Cinematic Studio Woodwinds and Cinematic Studio Percussion will follow soon after_."
> 
> So, We should expect *Cinematic Studio Brass*, and *Cinematic Studio Solo Strings* soon !
> 
> Really excited to see them released soon.



The site doesn't say that anymore. It now says:

_The new Cinematic Studio Series will provide a comprehensive, consistent and realistic full set of orchestral libraries. We're proud to announce the immediate availability of the first three libraries in this groundbreaking collection: strings, solo strings and piano. The rest of the series is currently in production and will include brass, woodwinds and percussion sections.
_
As Alex is no longer promising Cinematic Studio Brass this year on the site, I'm guessing that we will see CSB by first quarter of 2018. Which is not to say that it might not appear this year. His stuff has a way of just turning up one day without a lot of advance buildup.


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## RRBE Sound

I can not wait!!!!!!


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## axb312

Any news on this ...?


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## MA-Simon

+1


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## miguel88

I only know that is gonna be out before next summer, just I hope we access this winter, but better they don't give any date until release so they can work without a date limit so the library scrips will be better.


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## MA-Simon

I updated to Spitfire Symphonic Brass in the meantime, but I am still waiting on Cinematic Studio Brass... the scripting is a lot more accesible (I do not like the fade to ultra annoyingly quiet ppp layers in Spitfire Brass at all, its to quiet to be usable?). I never had any problem with the legato delay. It's just practise. I just wish it could get it sooner rather then later. Very much looking forward to the winds. The solo strings are fantastic, so no pressure there...


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## Reid Rosefelt

A watched pot never boils. 

We all know that when we least expect it, without warning, one day CSB will be here.
Sometime in the first quarter, right?

The better question is: when can we expect CSW?


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## AoiichiNiiSan

TigerTheFrog said:


> The better question is: when can we expect CSW?



That's what I'm wondering because it's the only reason I'm holding off on BWW Revive!


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## chrisphan

miguel88 said:


> before next summe


Where did he say this?


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## dcoscina

Didn't Alex just release CSSS?


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## cyoder

dcoscina said:


> Didn't Alex just release CSSS?


CSSS is around four months old now.


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## RandomComposer

Does anyone know anything about this? I'm not sure whether to hold my breath on this one (need a new brass library) but they're over 1 year late so far


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## SoNowWhat?

RandomComposer said:


> Does anyone know anything about this? I'm not sure whether to hold my breath on this one (need a new brass library) but they're over 1 year late so far


Not heard anything (but I wasn’t really expecting to either). Definitely don’t hold your breath (unless you are a tradigrade). Interested to hear/see this one (ditto all the css libs).


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## Grizzlymv

Well, I went on their site earlier today and I discovered that they removed any references to timeline for the rest of the cinematic studio series. In the past, they just gave vague ETAs and then stay quiet until they would just show up one day with the finished product. So I'm expecting the same for the rest of the series. I don't know what is taking longer than expected, but if Alex needs more time to ensure we get a pristine product like we always get from him, then I don't mind. I'm sure he have excellent reasons and I'd take that over any rushed products like we've seen with other devs in the past. I was never deceived by their previous products so I'm gonna wait until they are ready. There's no other brass/wind or perc library that convinced me yet, so I'm not in a hurry. Hopefully they will convince me like the strings did. I'd prefer to get the complete orchestra from cinematic studio now that I invested in their instruments. Time will tell. I think we are definitely closer to a release than we were a year ago, but if you're in a hurry, waiting for the CSB release might be a too long shot for you.


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## Zhao Shen

I just now realized that I haven't wanted to buy anything other than CSB in forever. Somehow, the wait has singlehandedly cured my gear acquisition syndrome. What the hell.


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## Clawrence

Slowly losing the ability to wait. I have such big hopes for this library. Hanging in there....no news from anybody yet.


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## I like music

Seems like there's genuinely enough interest in this that board members would be willing to contribute towards paying for a private detective to go and spy on the developer in Australia ... maybe a private detective that can play a trombone. Do those exist? That way he/she can get right in there and ask the question everyone seems to want answered. "When the feck is it coming out?"


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## jamwerks

He was last seen on a private yacht chasing around Tahitian girls. He's probably not getting much work done...


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## ctsai89

jamwerks said:


> He was last seen on a private yacht chasing around Tahitian girls. He's probably not getting much work done...



Just a conspiracy theory: The promise for CSB was only a strategy to get people to buy CSS in hopes that they will eventually have the whole set of orchestra in one hall


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## chrisphan

Another conspiracy theory: they're cooking both CSB and CSWW and will be releasing them at the same time. Profit!


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## Robo Rivard

A good guess would be that they learn new things while working on the new libraries, and they try to figure out how they could apply these new discoveries to CSS and CSSS with an upgrade, so everything stays consistent.


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## NoamL

Another theory is that making libraries that are this good takes time.


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## michdb

last black Friday I sent an email about it and I ask if is gonna release before summer and he said yes, so I hope is coming in the next months if not I 'll check another alternative cause I need a brass library for my CSS and SSW


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## ctsai89

Cinematic studio series CEO is retiring.

Conspiracy theory


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## leon chevalier

The Cenematic Studio Serie does not exist, you guys must be hallucinating...


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## NoamL

michdb said:


> last black Friday I sent an email about it and I ask if is gonna release before summer and he said yes, so I hope is coming in the next months if not I 'll check another alternative cause I need a brass library for my CSS and SSW



To be completely honest (since this is the sample talk forum after all!) I am probably not gonna buy CS Brass unless it really wows me, but that's because I have way too many brass libraries already... Berlin Brass, Adventure Brass, Trailer Brass, Hollywood Brass Gold, Auddict Octohorn (the most disappointing of these purchases, don't get it), Waverunner Horns, and even a number of freebies are in my brass template (Jasper Blunk's Fortissimo Brass, and his Angry Brass). I'm definitely a gear acquisition victim when it comes to brass!!

I found a really nice way to achieve the brass sound I expect from CSB (and that balances well with CSS) is to combine close mics from Adventure Brass with distant mics from Berlin Brass, as I explained in the Henry Jackman mockup thread. Of course, AB+BB is probably twice as expensive as CSB is going to be (and doing mockups this way takes twice the work!), so this hardly puts them out of business.

Now woodwinds on the other hand, despite doing additional music on films for the past 2 years, I haven't bought a single pro woodwinds library (sad remark on the state of scoring isn't it?!). I am very interested in Cinematic Studio Woodwinds, but I really also bet that Adventure Woodwinds is coming down the road some month soon. In fact, it's been a bit surprising that other developers have let OT, Spitfire & VSL hold the field to themselves for this long (since 2012? 2013?) in the pro woodwinds category.... I'm probably unfairly discounting some of the other libraries that have come out since like Auddict Winds and Sonokinetic Winds, but people always seem to cite Spitfire or Berlin or VSL as their main winds.


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## michdb

NoamL said:


> To be completely honest (since this is the sample talk forum after all!) I am probably not gonna buy CS Brass unless it really wows me, but that's because I have way too many brass libraries already... Berlin Brass, Adventure Brass, Trailer Brass, Hollywood Brass Gold, Auddict Octohorn (the most disappointing of these purchases, don't get it), Waverunner Horns, and even a number of freebies are in my brass template (Jasper Blunk's Fortissimo Brass, and his Angry Brass). I'm definitely a gear acquisition victim when it comes to brass!!
> 
> I found a really nice way to achieve the brass sound I expect from CSB (and that balances well with CSS) is to combine close mics from Adventure Brass with distant mics from Berlin Brass, as I explained in the Henry Jackman mockup thread. Of course, AB+BB is probably twice as expensive as CSB is going to be (and doing mockups this way takes twice the work!), so this hardly puts them out of business.
> 
> Now woodwinds on the other hand, despite doing additional music on films for the past 2 years, I haven't bought a single pro woodwinds library (sad remark on the state of scoring isn't it?!). I am very interested in Cinematic Studio Woodwinds, but I really also bet that Adventure Woodwinds is coming down the road some month soon. In fact, it's been a bit surprising that other developers have let OT, Spitfire & VSL hold the field to themselves for this long (since 2012? 2013?) in the pro woodwinds category.



so if you have to get one brass library all in one with a good quality reasonable price which one do you recommend? i hear good stuff about cinesamples brass and once a year normally is at 50% discount


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## NoamL

It depends hugely on what you like to write. For "epic" brass that's mostly made up of very simple horn lines and trombone chords, Trailer Brass is hard to beat for sheer mass and punch... for "adventury" and classic film scoring brass with lots of nimble, bright writing, Adventure Brass is great but so is Jasper Blunk's Angry Brass for the bigger stuff. Hollywood Brass Gold is a very good library despite its age and has plenty of muted brass samples unlike the other three I mentioned so far. For soft, emotional choral brass, Berlin Brass is really the best - as well as for any kind of 11-part writing where you really want to create the illusion of an independent musician on each part instead of the "multiple copies of the same musician" approach of the other libraries out there - but it has the most significant RAM impact, usability issues, and high price of all the libraries I mentioned. There are mockups here on VIC where people do wonders with Spitfire Symphonic Brass, Sample Modeling Brass, and Cinebrass, I've just never been enthralled enough to buy them  And then there's Caspian Brass... Strezov Brass... Bravura Brass.... so much brass!

Long story short though, I recommend you get Composer Cloud from Eastwest for just one month, try out Hollywood Brass and see if you like it. None of the other developers have a $30 try before you buy offer...


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## jamwerks

It seems that solo libraries are hard to do as far as legato cross-fading phasing is concerned. Devs are getting better and better. BWW Revive is pretty good for example. Alex knows the expectations keep getting higher. Hopefully he'll deliver. 

I would love for him to implement a delay control for all his series. Audiobro seems to have found the solution in Genesis.


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## N.Caffrey

jamwerks said:


> It seems that solo libraries are hard to do as far as legato cross-fading phasing is concerned. Devs are getting better and better. BWW Revive is pretty good for example. Alex knows the expectations keep getting higher. Hopefully he'll deliver.
> 
> I would love for him to implement a delay control for all his series. Audiobro seems to have found the solution in Genesis.


Individual articulations would be very welcome too


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## NathanTiemeyer

I have big hopes for Cinematic Studio Brass. For me, there's little to be desired in the Brass market in terms of realism and affordability all in one package. CSB has fill the ability to fill that niche. It also has the potential to bring that beautiful legato engine from CSS and CSSS and bring that to the world of brass, that alone makes this library an instant buy on Day 1! CSB has the potential to be a real game-changer so I'll just continue to refresh this forum every day in hopes of this amazing brass library becoming a reality ...


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## Reid Rosefelt

jamwerks said:


> Alex knows the expectations keep getting higher. Hopefully he'll deliver.



Anybody who has ever created complex software knows it's relatively easy to get something 90% of the way. It's that last 10% that is the hardest thing--it can even take longer than all the previous work.

That's why so many developers release software (not just music libraries) before they are fully finished. Some then correct the problems in updates. 

That doesn't seem to be Alex's style. If it's not up to his exacting standards he doesn't bring it out. 

And as highly anticipated as this is, I don't think anybody wants him to release anything less.


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## chrisphan

Robo Rivard said:


> A good guess would be that they learn new things while working on the new libraries, and they try to figure out how they could apply these new discoveries to CSS and CSSS with an upgrade, so everything stays consistent.


I certainly hope that's the case. Just checked out Audiobro Genesis and I really hope to see their built-in delay compensation in Cinematic Studio products


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## NoamL

N.Caffrey said:


> Individual articulations would be very welcome too



Individual articulations are possible in CSS. Use option-click to click away all the articulation boxes except the one you want, and Kontakt will unload the samples. Then you can save it as a Kontakt preset.


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## fretti

NoamL said:


> Individual articulations are possible in CSS. Use option-click to click away all the articulation boxes except the one you want, and Kontakt will unload the samples. Then you can save it as a Kontakt preset.


I think he meant it more like Spitfire or OT do it with a folder for every instrument section. Though clicking them away is at least a lot faster than in the full Spitfire patches


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## Symfoniq

Zhao Shen said:


> I just now realized that I haven't wanted to buy anything other than CSB in forever. Somehow, the wait has singlehandedly cured my gear acquisition syndrome. What the hell.



Funny, I've noticed the same thing. I've bought a few Performance Samples libraries over the last six months and that's it, because what I'm really waiting for is Cinematic Studio Brass.


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## N.Caffrey

NoamL said:


> Individual articulations are possible in CSS. Use option-click to click away all the articulation boxes except the one you want, and Kontakt will unload the samples. Then you can save it as a Kontakt preset.


Yes I know what you mean, but as fretti said, I'd like a patch for Spiccato, one for Staccato etc.


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## paularthur

i expressed interest in the woodwinds last week (still using kontakt FL VSL) and in short; Alex expressed that the Brass is on the way...


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## Symfoniq

N.Caffrey said:


> Yes I know what you mean, but as fretti said, I'd like a patch for Spiccato, one for Staccato etc.



I wrote Alex an email asking for this in CSS/CSSS. He replied promptly and courteously, but made it clear he didn't see individual articulation patches happening. I don't think it jives with his design philosophy for these libraries.


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## Grizzlymv

Well. 


N.Caffrey said:


> Yes I know what you mean, but as fretti said, I'd like a patch for Spiccato, one for Staccato etc.


Well. I personally don't see it as an issue. I'm having a template into which I have several instances of kontakt loaded, and each having only 1 articulation loaded. This allows me to have 1 articulation per track which I find more efficient for my workflows. The only wish I'd have is for the measured trems to have them load the proper samples set. Right now, I have to load several different articulation for them. But otherwise it's only one per articulation and it works fine. Loading one file or offloading unneeded articulation I don't mind, as long as the end result is the same, which is 1 articulation only loaded in memory in my instance.


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## leon chevalier

paularthur said:


> i expressed interest in the woodwinds last week (still using kontakt FL VSL) and in short; Alex expressed that the Brass is on the way...


Fantastic !


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## axb312

Does this thread put any pressure on @Alex W to get the library out faster? I donno but I sure hope so.

Been waiting for 6 months or so now to pick up a brass library...


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## fretti

axb312 said:


> Does this thread put any pressure on @Alex W to get the library out faster? I donno but I sure hope so.
> 
> Been waiting for 6 months or so now to pick up a brass library...


I hope not. Rather waiting for a great library than being disappointed with an okay product with multiple updates.

But given that I just bought SSB I'm in no hurry to buy another brass library


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## Lionel Schmitt

axb312 said:


> Does this thread put any pressure on @Alex W to get the library out faster? I donno but I sure hope so.
> 
> Been waiting for 6 months or so now to pick up a brass library...


I'd rather want a library that takes a bit longer but is of higher quality than otherwise.
It may take a few more months to produce but then lasts for years...


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## ridgero

Buy another library, if you need to... you will buy CSB anyway.

For me, I‘ll wait until its finished. You guys will be much happier with a polished release instead of a beta version (which seems to pretty common in software nowadays).

Their products are awesome and I am confident that CSB will be no break from tradition.


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## RandomComposer

I don’t mind waiting but it would be nice to have an approximate release date in order to plan around it.


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## NameOfBand

Grizzlymv said:


> Well.
> 
> Well. I personally don't see it as an issue. I'm having a template into which I have several instances of kontakt loaded, and each having only 1 articulation loaded. This allows me to have 1 articulation per track which I find more efficient for my workflows. The only wish I'd have is for the measured trems to have them load the proper samples set. Right now, I have to load several different articulation for them. But otherwise it's only one per articulation and it works fine. Loading one file or offloading unneeded articulation I don't mind, as long as the end result is the same, which is 1 articulation only loaded in memory in my instance.


Maybe I misunderstood what you said here but you do know that if you load several patches with all articulations loaded, it use more RAM since all the samples already are loaded once, right?


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## eli0s

I kinda wish for announcing an announcement here! Come on @Alex W !


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## Alex W

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to drop in and say hello.  We’ve had a number of customers asking about our brass library, and so I wanted to update everyone on its progress.

First I’d like to apologise that it’s taking so long. There are a few reasons for this - the main one being that brass players in Sydney are generally very busy people, and session time with the top players was difficult to secure. In places like LA and London, there are literally hundreds of professional session musicians, and while the Sydney players are world-class, there are just far fewer of them! All the top players are constantly busy playing for the Sydney Symphony, Opera Orchestra and other film scoring gigs.

Another major factor has been that I’ve personally found brass instruments much more difficult to sample than strings. They have a far wider dynamic range, and generally require much more physical effort from the players. We believe we’ve pushed the envelope by capturing true long-form actual FFF legato, which has taken a very long time to get right.

We originally planned to release brass within 12 months of the strings, and I honestly believed at the time that this would be achievable. It’s taken much longer though, and I completely understand anyone being frustrated with the wait. So again, I really do apologise. I want this library finished more than anyone, and if it’s any consolation, I’m really loving the sound of it and I think you guys will too.

Thanks everyone for your continuing interest and support!

Best,
Alex and the CSS team


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## Pianolando

FFF-legato sounds very promising and unusual, looking forward to hearing it when it's done!


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## eli0s

Alex W said:


> I just wanted to drop in and say hello.  We’ve had a number of customers asking about our brass library, and so I wanted to update everyone on its progress.


Thanks for chiming in Alex!


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## NathanTiemeyer

Alex W said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I just wanted to drop in and say hello.  We’ve had a number of customers asking about our brass library, and so I wanted to update everyone on its progress.



This is the greatest post I've read on this forum since CSSS was released. Thanks Alex! 



Alex W said:


> We believe we’ve pushed the envelope by capturing true long-form actual FFF legato, which has taken a very long time to get right.



Wow. I CAN'T WAIT!


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## RandomComposer

When would we expect it to be released? Before the end of summer or later?


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## Rob Elliott

Wonderful update.


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## N.Caffrey

SO curious. Wonder when it's gonna be released then.. in months?


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## Lionel Schmitt

N.Caffrey said:


> SO curious. Wonder when it's gonna be released then.. in months?


From what he wrote there seem to be several unpredictable circumstances...

As I remember the way his previous releases were handled they could just drop every day without warning!


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## ridgero

Alex, I really appreciate your step to reply this thread. Hope to add the CSB to my cart soon


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## Symfoniq

Please don't apologize for wanting to release a product that is up to your usual standards, Alex. There are shockingly few sample developers that consistently deliver excellence. Your insistence on not releasing betas is what makes these libraries a Day 1 purchase for me. So I'll wait, because I know when it's done, it's _really done_.


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## noxtenebrae17

Cheers Alex. You're, by far, one of my favorite developers. Please take the time you need to polish it up. CSS being such a polished product is why I bought it instantly and have never regretted it.


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## paularthur

That was pure class, i'm willing to wait.


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## fretti

Pianolando said:


> FFF-legato sounds very promising and unusual, looking forward to hearing it when it's done!


Alone that is probably enough for me to buy it


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## NoamL

Alex you are right on target as usual!!

IMO one of the issues with some current brass libraries is, yes they have a fortissimo layer, but it's the ceiling, it's 127. This makes it very difficult to do things like crescendos at the end of a fortissimo note. Or even just dynamically contour a fortissimo note. That extra layer on top seems like a really smart idea.


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## SoNowWhat?

Perfect. I am quite happy to wait (and so is my wallet). Like @NoamL I probably have enough Brass libraries however, this is one (along with WWs and Perc) that will always have my interest. Even more so with that last update. Happy days.


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## ctsai89

When it is out, pretty sure there will be much less needs for other brass libraries.


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## jamwerks

Will be interesting to see if he does multiple soloists like Berlin Brass, or just one soloist per section.


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## ctsai89

jamwerks said:


> Will be interesting to see if he does multiple soloists like Berlin Brass, or just one soloist per section.



One soloist is good enough for me . Just need the full dynamic range, be as "definitive" as possible


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## leon chevalier

jamwerks said:


> Will be interesting to see if he does multiple soloists like Berlin Brass, or just one soloist per section.





ctsai89 said:


> One soloist is good enough for me . Just need the full dynamic range, be as "definitive" as possible



Stop bumping this thread ! My heart is fragile...

Oups, just did it too...


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## leon chevalier

jamwerks said:


> Will be interesting to see if he does multiple soloists like Berlin Brass, or just one soloist per section.





ctsai89 said:


> One soloist is good enough for me . Just need the full dynamic range, be as "definitive" as possible



Stop bumping this thread ! My heart is fragile...

Oups, just did it too...

[Edit: twice it seems]


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## ctsai89

leon chevalier said:


> Stop bumping this thread ! My heart is fragile...
> 
> Oups, just did it too...
> 
> [Edit: twice it seems]



It's ok won't die from one bump


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## axb312

So apparently 8dio is offering 40% off everything. Makes the Century Brass Bundle very very tempting at 358 USD....what do I do!?


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## Raphioli

Alex W said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I just wanted to drop in and say hello.  We’ve had a number of customers asking about our brass library, and so I wanted to update everyone on its progress.
> 
> First I’d like to apologise that it’s taking so long. There are a few reasons for this - the main one being that brass players in Sydney are generally very busy people, and session time with the top players was difficult to secure. In places like LA and London, there are literally hundreds of professional session musicians, and while the Sydney players are world-class, there are just far fewer of them! All the top players are constantly busy playing for the Sydney Symphony, Opera Orchestra and other film scoring gigs.
> 
> Another major factor has been that I’ve personally found brass instruments much more difficult to sample than strings. They have a far wider dynamic range, and generally require much more physical effort from the players. We believe we’ve pushed the envelope by capturing true long-form actual FFF legato, which has taken a very long time to get right.
> 
> We originally planned to release brass within 12 months of the strings, and I honestly believed at the time that this would be achievable. It’s taken much longer though, and I completely understand anyone being frustrated with the wait. So again, I really do apologise. I want this library finished more than anyone, and if it’s any consolation, I’m really loving the sound of it and I think you guys will too.
> 
> Thanks everyone for your continuing interest and support!
> 
> Best,
> Alex and the CSS team



Thanks for the update and please, *take your time*.

I'd personally want a polished product than a rushed one with bugs/flaws.


----------



## fretti

axb312 said:


> So apparently 8dio is offering 40% off everything. Makes the Century Brass Bundle very very tempting at 358 USD....what do I do!?


Flip a coin?
Or buy both?


----------



## spiderfingers

axb312 said:


> So apparently 8dio is offering 40% off everything. Makes the Century Brass Bundle very very tempting at 358 USD....what do I do!?



Bought it yesterday. For 309 Euro (this is what I paid) it's a damn good offer - unlike the ridiculously overpriced Berlin Brass. Both soft and loud dynamics sound gorgeous and it's smooth as you can hear on the youtube videos.

If you want to know about the (minor) downsides 8dio doesn't talk about:
- double tongues actually are quintuple tongues and releasing the keys earlier doesn't help
- there's only one legato transition which you can control with the speed knob, the point is that in some situations you are forced to use portamento (like high intervals on the solo trumpets in the upper ranges), but I guess on a real instrument you sometimes don't have a choice, either
- there's only one attack type on the long articulation, so you can't choose between hard and soft attacks, but the different articulations can compensate for this to a certain degree
- the biggest downer imo are the dynamic ranges of the instruments: you can ride CC11 along the modwheel to control the long articulations, but since I only have small, edgy faders which need 2 fingers to ride, I am not fond of this solution (and a real instrument doesn't require 2 separate inputs for timbre and loudness anyway). This becomes a real nuisance with a couple of short articulations, especially since some of them have almost no dynamic range at all. But to be fair: I haven't recorded anything yet and so I can't tell how much of a problem this will actually be.

Nevertheless, with 40% off this library is a good deal and probably the best brass library I have had under my fingers so far. If you put Cinematic Studio Brass on top of that, I would almost bet a finger you won't need another brass library. Hope that helps to make a decision 

@alex: As a number of times already requested, PLEASE, put some delay compensation into your libraries, and maybe you can make the waiting a little less painful for some of us, if you write 2 sentences every month about your status


----------



## NoamL

spiderfingers said:


> As a number of times already requested, PLEASE, put some delay compensation into your libraries



I have figured out a 100% solution to CSS's legato latency problems for Logic users. A couple good solutions already exist for Cubase users (here is one). My solution is even easier than that though, it's literally one button press (on your Lemur or whatever) and you never need to care about the latency again.

I'll release my free solution on Memorial Day. Still doing some last minute bug testing.

I have spoken with Alex about this (about a year ago, mind) and he felt that he didn't want to add complexity to the library by suggesting negative track delay to the userbase... admittedly it is a somewhat counterintuitive idea.


----------



## jamwerks

Genesis is going to spoil all of us as far as delay compensation is concerned. Would love a global solution for the entire CS range.


----------



## Silence-is-Golden

NoamL said:


> I have figured out a 100% solution to CSS's legato latency problems for Logic users. A couple good solutions already exist for Cubase users (here is one). My solution is even easier than that though, it's literally one button press (on your Lemur or whatever) and you never need to care about the latency again.
> 
> I'll release my free solution on Memorial Day. Still doing some last minute bug testing.
> 
> I have spoken with Alex about this (about a year ago, mind) and he felt that he didn't want to add complexity to the library by suggesting negative track delay to the userbase... admittedly it is a somewhat counterintuitive idea.


that would obviously be a tremendous help, as the endless tweaking is the major "con" of the library.
I hope that it is not needing external soft-or hardware? (you suggest Lemur or otherwise) and can possiby be used within one's host like Logic in my case.

btw: If it works that good, why not ask for some donation for your work?


----------



## spiderfingers

NoamL said:


> I have spoken with Alex about this (about a year ago, mind) and he felt that he didn't want to add complexity to the library by suggesting negative track delay to the userbase... admittedly it is a somewhat counterintuitive idea.



The delay issue actually does add complexity to the whole programming process. If you want to quantize, you have to open a midi editor, move your notes, quantize and move your notes back. You need to rearrange your midi data, if you change the tempo. Another complexity issue is that you have 3 or 4 different delay times. Obviously, the way Alex uses his libraries this isn't an issue for him, but the fact is that based on the different ways people compose this design is unsatisfying for a lot of people.

Thanks for the info about solutions from the community!


----------



## NoamL

Silence-is-Golden said:


> I hope that it is not needing external soft-or hardware? (you suggest Lemur or otherwise) and can possiby be used within one's host like Logic in my case.



Yes, no external software and I have no trouble using it in just Logic.



Silence-is-Golden said:


> btw: If it works that good, why not ask for some donation for your work?



I don't know how to set up donationware, is there a fast and easy method?



spiderfingers said:


> You need to rearrange your midi data, if you change the tempo. Another complexity issue is that you have 3 or 4 different delay times.



Indeed this is a HUGE problem with any method like "I made a macro, all you have to do is select all the fast notes and press a button, then select all the slow notes and press a button..."

In LogicX, there is a cool macro called MIDI Transformer which can shift notes for you, but the problem is it only understands note positions in terms of ticks (very small subdivisions of the tempo), and NOT milliseconds (i.e. very small subdivisions of _time_). Several months ago, I made an online calculator that tells you what subdivision values to enter into the macro, based on what tempo you are writing in. However, you have to change this macro every single time your host changes its tempo. Since I like changing tempo constantly as a superior method of humanizing the music, this calculator ended up being almost useless and sent me back to the drawing board.

Yet another problem with the velocity-based macro approach is that it doesn't recognize that notes which BEGIN legato phrases should NOT be delayed as if they were triggering legato transitions.

My new approach, brag brag brag, is superior to a macro and does not incur any of these problems. It just works, at any tempo, under changing tempos, does not require you to do productivity draining tasks like "select all the red notes and press a button, now select all the green notes and press a button", and solves the start-note problem easily.


----------



## RiffWraith

If I need to move notes fwd in time using Cubase, I just open the Key Ed., do a* select all*, ctrl+click the first note to de-select it, and grab the front of the second note and pull it fwd. This obviously, pulls all of the notes fwd. Or, I drag the mouse up to the timeline, and use the mousewheel to move the notes fwd.

This takes literally 3, maybe 4 sec. No macro needed. Can you not do this in Logic with the same amount of ease ?


----------



## chrisphan

NoamL said:


> he didn't want to add complexity to the library by suggesting negative track delay to the userbase


umm... what?


----------



## NoamL

RiffWraith said:


> If I need to move notes fwd in time using Cubase, I just open the Key Ed., do a* select all*, ctrl+click the first note to de-select it, and grab the front of the second note and pull it fwd. This obviously, pulls all of the notes fwd. Or, I drag the mouse up to the timeline, and use the mousewheel to move the notes fwd.
> 
> This takes literally 3, maybe 4 sec. No macro needed. Can you not do this in Logic with the same amount of ease ?




That only works if there's a single delay offset value. Doesn't work with the Advanced Legato patch where there is Slow, Medium and Fast legato transitions.


----------



## RiffWraith

NoamL said:


> That only works if there's a single delay offset value. Doesn't work with the Advanced Legato patch where there is Slow, Medium and Fast legato transitions.



I see. With taking any necessary offset out of the picture for just a moment, what delineates Slow, Medium and Fast legato transitions?


----------



## NoamL

In CSS, Slow transitions are about 300 ms long, Medium transitions are 200 ms long and Fast transitions are 100 ms long. They're triggered by velocity. If you play velocity 0-64 the note will have a Slow legato transition; 65-100 is Medium and 101-127 is Fast. So, to put the notes "back onto the beat," each note in a phrase might have a different necessary offset.

Also worth noting that all the fast articulations (pizzicato, spiccato, staccato, Bartok pizz etc) are about 60 ms behind the beat. Actually it seems to vary between articulation but 60ms is a good rule of thumb.


----------



## RiffWraith

Ok. For this, you would in fact need macros - but it's easy-peasy. Set up 3 macros, which you would assign to KCs. You would use that instead of *select all.
*
One macro would select all notes from 0-64, the next would select all notes from 65-100, and the third would select all notes from 101-127.

So it's:

Open the Key Ed.
Macro 1 KC
Grab the front of the first selected note and pull it fwd the proper amount (deselect the first note if it's at the beginning of an event)
Macro 2 KC
Grab the front of the first selected note and pull it fwd the proper amount
Macro 3 KC
Grab the front of the first selected note and pull it fwd the proper amount
Close the Key Ed.

You have now moved all of the notes from all three transitions to the proper amount in just several seconds.

Should be that easy in Logic, no?


----------



## SoNowWhat?

NoamL said:


> Yes, no external software and I have no trouble using it in just Logic.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know how to set up donationware, is there a fast and easy method?
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed this is a HUGE problem with any method like "I made a macro, all you have to do is select all the fast notes and press a button, then select all the slow notes and press a button..."
> 
> In LogicX, there is a cool macro called MIDI Transformer which can shift notes for you, but the problem is it only understands note positions in terms of ticks (very small subdivisions of the tempo), and NOT milliseconds (i.e. very small subdivisions of _time_). Several months ago, I made an online calculator that tells you what subdivision values to enter into the macro, based on what tempo you are writing in. However, you have to change this macro every single time your host changes its tempo. Since I like changing tempo constantly as a superior method of humanizing the music, this calculator ended up being almost useless and sent me back to the drawing board.
> 
> Yet another problem with the velocity-based macro approach is that it doesn't recognize that notes which BEGIN legato phrases should NOT be delayed as if they were triggering legato transitions.
> 
> My new approach, brag brag brag, is superior to a macro and does not incur any of these problems. It just works, at any tempo, under changing tempos, does not require you to do productivity draining tasks like "select all the red notes and press a button, now select all the green notes and press a button", and solves the start-note problem easily.


I don’t even use Logic and I want this. 
Sounds very handy @NoamL


----------



## NoamL

SoNowWhat? said:


> I don’t even use Logic and I want this.
> Sounds very handy @NoamL



It's donnnne 

I was chasing a frustrating bug all day regarding the dual use of the modwheel in CSS (i.e. sometimes it's used for dynamics, sometimes for selecting articulations). It was really satisfying to load the final code for CSS and have everything work smoothly. I'll release it tomorrow. Will investigate doing a "donation button" or whatever.

Regarding the *Logic* exclusivity... to be honest, I recognize that in many respects Cubase is the superior DAW. I think Hans Zimmer said on this forum somewhere that "There's only two people in film music that have $10 billion lifetime box office, one of them uses a pencil and the other uses Cubase."

That being admitted, I contend there are features in Logic X that have tremendous, gold rush, atom bomb unexplored potential compared to what's available in Cubase. Both DAWs contain a so-called "MIDI transformer" but it's really not much more than an E-Z-Bake Oven. It lets you do simple utility tasks like bussing CC information from CC1 to CC2 and other stuff like that. Logic lets you put a real programming language between the MIDI and the sequencer. Which means you can design _literally any tool you can imagine_. Even though there are hundreds of scripts out there already... trust me the "big ideas" have not been done yet... I'm working on doing one of them 

Compare it to computer games. Modding communities used to determine the longevity and popularity of games as much _or more_ than developers. The reason games like Skyrim, or Civilization, had year after year of consistent sales was because the community practically re-invented what the game could do. They didn't just fix bugs, rebalance the weapon stats, add cosmetics or upgrade the graphics to keep pace with new hardware. They dove into the code and made entirely new gameplay elements. The more moddable software is, the better it is, at a fundamental level.



RiffWraith said:


> You have now moved all of the notes from all three transitions to the proper amount in just several seconds.



The reason this can't work consistently is because note position is MIDI information that's tied to the beat/tempo and not to SMPTE/time. Let's say for instance that you find moving the slow notes back about an 8th note value is good. Well, that's only good _for that tempo - _at a faster tempo you'll need to move the note back more, and vice versa in slower tempos. I actually almost went into a phase of designing different key macros for different tempos, and then I realized, this is hella not worth it. Ultimately the solution *cannot* be us composers sitting there budging notes. And I say that pretty fervently as an orchestrator/copyist too. MIDI cleanup is such a waste of everyone's time. Libraries need to work when quantized to proper "sheet music" values - and in the future, the revolutionary things CSS is doing now will be integrated so smoothly that this is possible. In the meantime, we make workarounds.


----------



## Thomas A Booker

NoamL said:


> That being admitted, I contend there are features in Logic X that have tremendous, gold rush, atom bomb unexplored potential compared to what's available in Cubase. Both DAWs contain a so-called "MIDI transformer" but it's really not much more than an E-Z-Bake Oven. It lets you do simple utility tasks like bussing CC information from CC1 to CC2 and other stuff like that. Logic lets you put a real programming language between the MIDI and the sequencer. Which means you can design _literally any tool you can imagine_. Even though there are hundreds of scripts out there already... trust me the "big ideas" have not been done yet... I'm working on doing one of them
> 
> Compare it to computer games. Modding communities used to determine the longevity and popularity of games as much _or more_ than developers. The reason games like Skyrim, or Civilization, had year after year of consistent sales was because the community practically re-invented what the game could do. They didn't just fix bugs, rebalance the weapon stats, add cosmetics or upgrade the graphics to keep pace with new hardware. They dove into the code and made entirely new gameplay elements. The more moddable software is, the better it is, at a fundamental level.



It sounds like you would enjoy working with Reaper.


----------



## NoamL

*IT'S OUT!* Be the first to grab it


----------



## muziksculp

So, without having any specialized scripts, or helping tools, how did Alex intend the advanced legato mode to be used in a DAW ?


----------



## axb312

muziksculp said:


> So, without having any specialized scripts, or helping tools, how did Alex intend the advanced legato mode to be used in a DAW ?



Honestly, I would like to know this as well...

@Alex W - can we please have an update with delay compensation soon?


----------



## muziksculp

I don't know of any other sample library that uses the type of advanced legato Alex uses in the Advanced Legato Mode of CSS, maybe he can give us some insight on what's the best way to use them without any scripts/special tools ? or how he uses them ?

My DAW is Studio One Pro 4. on PC.

Oh.. and since the main topic of this thread is about the upcoming CSBrass. hopefully there isn't some odd legato mode, that needs a script, or specialized tools to work nicely inside any DAW in CSB.


----------



## germancomponist

RTFM


----------



## muziksculp

germancomponist said:


> RTFM


will do


----------



## Ihnoc

NoamL said:


> I have figured out a 100% solution to CSS's legato latency problems for Logic users. A couple good solutions already exist for Cubase users (here is one).



Thanks for the highlight @NoamL. I do believe we ended up in similar places but different implementations. Great stuff, man! For Logic users yours will probably work best for them. I wanted to make as much benefit across DAWs personally and as a Cubase user setting CCs etc via expression maps is second nature, hence my Kontakt multiscript you've linked.

Looking forward to Cinematic Studio Brass too! AudioBro's negative delay in Genesis would certainly be appealing along with Cinematic Studio Strings - I personally don't think it is much of a cognitive leap for a user to have this kind of feature when the library already relies on CCs to Keyswitch and velocity to control transition length. These are both intuitive and yet divergent from the industry norms. Clearly there's desire for it when two different people have arrived at compensatory scripting solutions and a gamut of people use macros.

That said, other libraries have far worse quirks that genuinely make me question why I bought the product. The transition delay in CSS is purposeful to enhance playability. It isn't broken but being able to toggle it would be fantastic.


----------



## NoamL

Ihnoc said:


> being able to toggle it would be fantastic.



Hi Alex! have you tried adding this to your solution?

declare var PlayableMode = False (as default)

Test each incoming event to see if it's a CC13 message and update PlayableMode to true or false (it detects if the pedal is down and retains the information until the pedal is released).

Then whenever you have a NoteOn event with ArticulationID legato, you put a little "If PlayableMode = true, NoteOn velocity = 127" before sending it to the Slow/Medium/Fast relays in your code. In effect when you have the CC13 expression pedal down, the legato behaves exactly like Alex's "Classic Legato" workaround patch, because all notes are being interpreted as 127 velocity (without destructively changing their real value in the piano roll). This almost completely eliminates latency during "Play The Notes In" mode.


----------



## axb312

germancomponist said:


> RTFM



have read the manual. Studio one doesn't have the option to change the ms delay on a note by note basis (unless I'm missing something). Would really love to know how @Alex W intended for this library to be used while:

1. Keeping notes on the beat for the sake of notation
2. Accommodating for the inherent delay baked in


----------



## Saxer

Everything about the legato said here... mainly that you get used to the delay when playing it for a while.


That said I would really welcome a switch for a unified delay mode across the whole library. I for now work with the classic legatos only. Makes my life easier (and they don't sound really bad!).


----------



## Giscard Rasquin

The way I use it is:

Track delay of -60ms on all CSS tracks which is the standard track delay suggested in the manual for short articulations. 
Then for longs, I always use advanced legato and have a macro setup in Cubase which basically includes the 3 macros described above in just one macro, advancing all legato notes forward in time with an amount according to their velocity (manual!) minus the 60ms of track delay that’s already on the track. 
So I select all advanced legato notes, quantize them, then select all notes except the first one and fire the macro command via TouchOSC and all transitions should be spot on. Might sound like a lot of work but once you get the hang of it, it actually works very well.


----------



## axb312

GuitarG said:


> The way I use it is:
> 
> Track delay of -60ms on all CSS tracks which is the standard track delay suggested in the manual for short articulations.
> Then for longs, I always use advanced legato and have a macro setup in Cubase which basically includes the 3 macros described above in just one macro, advancing all legato notes forward in time with an amount according to their velocity (manual!) minus the 60ms of track delay that’s already on the track.
> So I select all advanced legato notes, quantize them, then select all notes except the first one and fire the macro command via TouchOSC and all transitions should be spot on. Might sound like a lot of work but once you get the hang of it, it actually works very well.



This is spot on. Unfortunately, this isn't a feature included in every DAW, so what do those who don't own Cubase (and now Logic) do? Like I said earlier, I currently don't have a feature to set note by note compensation. When the note delays are already known to the developers, why not include this as an optional button/ feature in the kontakt instrument itself?


----------



## muziksculp

Saxer said:


> That said I would really welcome a switch for a unified delay mode across the whole library.



That would be nice, but.. How would that be possible for the advanced Legato mode, if there are three different delay values depending on the velocity of the note ? 

I think getting used to playing the advanced legato mode with the delay, feels odd, but maybe that's the best Alex was able to offer. Plus, is there a huge audible difference between the basic, and advanced Legato modes, as far as the resulting legato effect ? Maybe, although I think the difference is minor.


----------



## Saxer

muziksculp said:


> That would be nice, but.. How would that be possible for the advanced Legato mode, if there are three different delay values depending on the velocity of the note ?


By delaying the other legatos too.


----------



## leon chevalier

Saxer said:


> By delaying the other legatos too.


I'm not a kontakt dev, but this seems not hard to do. It may also be done with a multi script if they don't want to mess with the instrument script...

Cinesample has done it :
_The problem with most legato libraries is that the timings of each note are inconsistent; the first note in a phrase will sound immediately, while subsequent notes will be delayed. The Quantize Mode tackles this problem by calculating the legato lag time, and applying the same delay to non-legato samples. _


----------



## NoamL

Yes.... That solution is a lot more feasible when all the articulations in the library have short latencies. That's because the "built in" latency has to equal the latency needed by the _slowest_ among all articulations. This is why it works just fine in Genesis... I think there's also a percussion (shaker?) library recently that uses this approach as well. This approach works poorly for strings, because portamento transitions are _much_ longer than average legato transitions.


----------



## leon chevalier

NoamL said:


> Yes.... That solution is a lot more feasible when all the articulations in the library have short latencies. That's because the "built in" latency has to equal the latency needed by the _slowest_ among all articulations. This is why it works just fine in Genesis... I think there's also a percussion (shaker?) library recently that uses this approach as well. This approach works poorly for strings, because portamento transitions are _much_ longer than average legato transitions.


Let's say that they set a global delay for the instrument of 500 ms. So the user set up a track delay of 500ms in the daw.
then inside the instrument, when the user trigering the articulation, you vary the delay to match 500 ms.
EG :
- short take 60ms, they add 440 ms
- legato long take 300 ms, they add 200 ms
- protamento take 500 ms, they add nothing !

This mode would make the instrument hardly playable, so it should be switchable ! But you could write on the beat. I don't see where the problem is from a technical point of view ?

Anyway thanks Thanos ! Much respect for your contribution !


----------



## nicoroy123

GuitarG said:


> The way I use it is:
> 
> Track delay of -60ms on all CSS tracks which is the standard track delay suggested in the manual for short articulations.
> Then for longs, I always use advanced legato and have a macro setup in Cubase which basically includes the 3 macros described above in just one macro, advancing all legato notes forward in time with an amount according to their velocity (manual!) minus the 60ms of track delay that’s already on the track.
> So I select all advanced legato notes, quantize them, then select all notes except the first one and fire the macro command via TouchOSC and all transitions should be spot on. Might sound like a lot of work but once you get the hang of it, it actually works very well.



This is precisely what I do. Works perfectly.


----------



## Jannis H.

I own Komplete 11 Ultimate which contains the Native Instruments Symphony Essentials. The upgrade to full Symphony Series (Strings, Brass, Solo Brass, Woodwinds, Solo Woodwinds, Percussions) is now on sale for 299$ at the NI summer sale.
I also use CSS and CSSS and i love them. Now I need a solid Brass library (And sooner or later also woodwinds).
I'm not shure wheter to upgrade to Symphony Series or wait for CSB..
Any experiences on the Symphony Series? Is it worth the 299$?

Sorry for interrupting the discussion.


----------



## fretti

Jannis H. said:


> I own Komplete 11 Ultimate which contains the Native Instruments Symphony Essentials. The upgrade to full Symphony Series (Strings, Brass, Solo Brass, Woodwinds, Solo Woodwinds, Percussions) is now on sale for 299$ at the NI summer sale.
> I also use CSS and CSSS and i love them. Now I need a solid Brass library (And sooner or later also woodwinds).
> I'm not shure wheter to upgrade to Symphony Series or wait for CSB..
> Any experiences on the Symphony Series? Is it worth the 299$?
> 
> Sorry for interrupting the discussion.


Might want to check this out:
https://vi-control.net/community/th...vs-full-differences.72030/page-2#post-4238585

Weither or not it's worth to wait is hard to say...depends on how long the production of CSB needs imo...if it takes another half year then an upgrade now could be worth a shot as you then have 6 months with a "full" brass library (though the Essentials offers already pretty much); if it's out in the next 1 or 2 months then you might regret it or end up buying both
But yeah, the price is really tempting...just bought the Strings upgrade, was in my eyes worth it and it complements my palette quite well; offer a nice sound also. Can't speak for Brass and Woodwinds...


----------



## Rob Elliott

muziksculp said:


> That would be nice, but.. How would that be possible for the advanced Legato mode, if there are three different delay values depending on the velocity of the note ?
> 
> I think getting used to playing the advanced legato mode with the delay, feels odd, but maybe that's the best Alex was able to offer. Plus, is there a huge audible difference between the basic, and advanced Legato modes, as far as the resulting legato effect ? Maybe, although I think the difference is minor.


It really is more than you think to get even more expression and realism out of the library. Using a macro is key to making your workflow (writing) not suffer to make final adjusts. For the final result - well worth the hassle.


----------



## axb312

Jannis H. said:


> I own Komplete 11 Ultimate which contains the Native Instruments Symphony Essentials. The upgrade to full Symphony Series (Strings, Brass, Solo Brass, Woodwinds, Solo Woodwinds, Percussions) is now on sale for 299$ at the NI summer sale.
> I also use CSS and CSSS and i love them. Now I need a solid Brass library (And sooner or later also woodwinds).
> I'm not shure wheter to upgrade to Symphony Series or wait for CSB..
> Any experiences on the Symphony Series? Is it worth the 299$?
> 
> Sorry for interrupting the discussion.



I would recommend you get 8DIO century Brass for 358 USD instead of the Symphony Series. The summer sale has been extended to 5th June.

You can also get the Cinebrass complete bundle for 495 USD from Time and Space. Use code TSMAY15 at checkout. Valid up to 4th June 2018.


----------



## ZenFaced

jamwerks said:


> Genesis is going to spoil all of us as far as delay compensation is concerned. Would love a global solution for the entire CS range.



What is Genesis?


----------



## muziksculp

Rob Elliott said:


> It really is more than you think to get even more expression and realism out of the library. Using a macro is key to making your workflow (writing) not suffer to make final adjusts. For the final result - well worth the hassle.



I don't think I can create this type of macro in Studio One Pro 4, which is my DAW. 

Interestingly, non of the other Strings libraries from Spitfire, OT, 8dio, ..etc. require this, they offer very good legato functionality out of the box, no need to compensate for various notes, create a macro, or manually deal with delay compensation for different types of notes. I guess I will just have to get used to using CSS advanced legato in real time, and see how that goes.


----------



## lp59burst

ZenFaced said:


> What is Genesis?



Genesis is an amazing children's choir VI from Audiobro... 

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/audiobro-genesis-childrens-choir.70831


----------



## N.Caffrey

So, last update was 2 months ago.. Any news!?!


----------



## lucor

Considering that today is the 2nd birthday of Cinematic Studio Strings, I think Alex should just release CSB today as well to celebrate. Pretty please?!


----------



## eli0s

lucor said:


> Considering that today is the 2nd birthday of Cinematic Studio Strings, I think Alex should just release CSB today as well to celebrate. Pretty please?!


Oh, please, YES!


----------



## Guffy

Release it when it's ready, even if it takes another year.
It's worth waiting for something amazing.


----------



## MA-Simon

Fugdup said:


> even if it takes another year.


Noooo, Traitor!


----------



## leon chevalier

lucor said:


> Considering that today is the 2nd birthday of Cinematic Studio Strings, I think Alex should just release CSB today as well to celebrate. Pretty please?!


And for the first birthday of the announcement of Cinematic Studio Brass


----------



## chrisphan

You guys still think that this library is real? It's a myth


----------



## MA-Simon

leon chevalier said:


> And for the first birthday of the announcement of Cinematic Studio Brass


https://www.gearslutz.com/board/mus...-new-sample-library-creators-cs2-out-now.html from 7th Juli 2016
"The series will feature the entire orchestra including piano (also out now), solo strings, brass, woodwind and percussion."

Edit: It is older then chrisphan!


----------



## Batrawi

So what do you guys suggest...Should I wait until CSB is out? or should I learn the brass instruments?


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Bumping this thread guys, I tell you that for sure doesn´t help Alex release CSB or magically something similiar happens. You have *to wait *(I know some have problems with that) :D and if you want to know details, write alex a mail. I am pretty sure he knows more than anybody else here! At least I can assure that!


----------



## N.Caffrey

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Bumping this thread guys, I tell you that for sure doesn´t help Alex release CSB or magically something similiar happens. You have *to wait *(I know some have problems with that) :D and if you want to know details, write alex a mail. I am pretty sure he knows more than anybody else here! At least I can assure that!


So, did you write Alex an email? If you know some details please share them


----------



## NoamL

He already posted this last month:

-----
_
Hi everyone,

I just wanted to drop in and say hello.  We’ve had a number of customers asking about our brass library, and so I wanted to update everyone on its progress.

First I’d like to apologise that it’s taking so long. There are a few reasons for this - the main one being that brass players in Sydney are generally very busy people, and session time with the top players was difficult to secure. In places like LA and London, there are literally hundreds of professional session musicians, and while the Sydney players are world-class, there are just far fewer of them! All the top players are constantly busy playing for the Sydney Symphony, Opera Orchestra and other film scoring gigs.

Another major factor has been that I’ve personally found brass instruments much more difficult to sample than strings. They have a far wider dynamic range, and generally require much more physical effort from the players. We believe we’ve pushed the envelope by capturing true long-form actual FFF legato, which has taken a very long time to get right.

We originally planned to release brass within 12 months of the strings, and I honestly believed at the time that this would be achievable. It’s taken much longer though, and I completely understand anyone being frustrated with the wait. So again, I really do apologise. I want this library finished more than anyone, and if it’s any consolation, I’m really loving the sound of it and I think you guys will too.

Thanks everyone for your continuing interest and support!

Best,
Alex and the CSS team _

--------

I'm happy to wait


----------



## axb312

Anticipation building up...anything hear anything about this?


----------



## eli0s

Damn, I almost had a heart attack seeing there is a new post entry after all this time!


----------



## N.Caffrey

please, any news, teaser, demos, would be so welcome!


----------



## muziksculp

I have a feeling we will see it soon.


----------



## ctsai89

*bump*


----------



## spiderfingers

Didn't someone say a release is planned during summer? Considering days are already getting shorter which means we practically have winter, he is kind of overdue...


----------



## markleake

spiderfingers said:


> Didn't someone say a release is planned during summer? Considering days are already getting shorter which means we practically have winter, he is kind of overdue...


Well, it is Aussie winter over here, so they've got plenty of time before summer...


----------



## Symfoniq

markleake said:


> Well, it is Aussie winter over here, so they've got plenty of time before summer...



Hahaha! And isn't Alex an Aussie? Oh, he's a clever rascal...


----------



## RandomComposer

Remember when the website said early-2017?


----------



## spiderfingers

markleake said:


> Well, it is Aussie winter over here, so they've got plenty of time before summer...



True, totally forgot about that :D


----------



## amorphosynthesis

....but what about the winds?


----------



## rottoy

amorphosynthesis said:


> ....but what about the winds?


I'm also anxiously awaiting this! 
I'm hoping Alex has finally sampled an oboe with a timbre to my liking.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

NoamL said:


> He already posted this last month:
> _brass players in Sydney are generally very busy people, and session time with the top players was difficult to secure. In places like LA and London, there are literally hundreds of professional session musicians, and while the Sydney players are world-class, there are just far fewer of them! All the top players are constantly busy playing for the Sydney Symphony, Opera Orchestra and other film scoring gigs._



Aussies: Stop hiring brass players so we can get our Cinematic Studio Brass dammit.


----------



## jamwerks

Each instrument is only a few days of sampling sessions. Being able to book the players has nothing to do imo with the 2 year delay on this library. Makes me think that maybe Alex works alone instead of having a team behind him.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

First he is from Austrailia and not Austria and 2nd: Man, sometimes I think it is like in elementary school here when reading all of that here., joking aside: WAIT..can someone wait without bumping this thread? Curious if that is possible.


----------



## NoamL

jamwerks said:


> Each instrument is only a few days of sampling sessions. Being able to book the players has nothing to do imo with the 2 year delay on this library. Makes me think that maybe Alex works alone instead of having a team behind him.



I don't know Alex but I think you might be surprised at how much re-work there is in sampling sessions. Recording something once, then turning it into samples but figuring out halfway through that some detail is wrong and it needs to be re-recorded. Or recording 1 set of samples, but only when that is done can you move on to record sets 2, 3, etc. The reason I say that is because in CSS, there are four short articulations, each of which have 4(?) dynamic layers, and these layers match _almost perfectly_ both within each articulation set and across 5 recorded sections. That surely is not easy to accomplish. Again I don't know Alex's particular process but I wouldn't be surprised if it involved recording one set of shorts across the orchestra, then bringing everyone back on another day and having them listen to their own spiccatos and record staccatos that match exactly in dynamics, then again for sforzandos, etc. There are a lot of libraries out there that don't seem to be recorded with the same attention to detail as CSS. The approach of booking a hall for one day, cramming all the articulations into a single recording session, and then making do in the edits does seem to be the modus operandi of a lot of developers but I doubt if it produces the most uncompromising results.


----------



## jamwerks

There's sure lot's of reworking that has had to be done, with probably many additional sessions needed. Otherwise this library would have come out a year or more ago. As Alex has "learned" how to deal with brass, he's probably even started all over again, reworked méthodes, etc. Once he learns a new method and decides to implement it, then he has to recall 10 players to put that in all instruments. So lots of back and forth.


----------



## MarcelM

it will come out with a big bang suddenly without any hype emails, trailers and what else some other companys do... and i like that fact ALOT! 

if it takes time, so be it. atleast the products from alex work really very nice and some small bugs in the release versions have always been fixed.


----------



## Tekkera

Stop bumping this thread, the suspense is killing me.


----------



## ctsai89

Bump


----------



## NYC Composer

I love Alex’s products, but there’s a decent amount of good brass out there. Why speculate on vapor?

(not trying to be rude, just curious).


----------



## Saxer

NYC Composer said:


> Why speculate on vapor?


The gras is always greener...


----------



## desert

My friend is best friends with Alex and he said it is coming out in December. 

Now can we please stop bumping this thread and wait patiently!


----------



## leon chevalier

desert said:


> My friend is best friends with Alex and he said it is coming out in December.
> 
> Now can we please stop bumping this thread and wait patiently!


You cannot post something like this and hopping no reaction !


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Alex Wallbank should take his sweet time. I'm happy to wait. The world needs more libraries like CSS. That thing just came out and delivered, on all accounts. Unlike most of the stuff everyone else seems to be doing lately.


----------



## eli0s

desert said:


> My friend is best friends with Alex and he said it is coming out in December.
> 
> Now can we please stop bumping this thread and wait patiently!


Whaaaaaaat????


----------



## RandomComposer

Ironically all of this is putting pressure on CSB being the best damn brass library ever created, which means that Alex is going to want to spend even more time on perfecting everything


----------



## jamwerks

I think he already knows that if it turns out good, everyone will buy it, and if it's mediocre, almost no one will want it.

Personally I find CSSS. to be rather ordinary (mediocre), far from BST first chairs or the new SF. solo strings. Hopefully this brass will totally kick ass!

Maybe some of the setback is him implementing some kind of global delay compensation feature (like Audio Bro Genesis)? There has been lots of talk about that recently...


----------



## Grilled Cheese

desert said:


> My friend is best friends with Alex and he said it is coming out in December.
> 
> Now can we please stop bumping this thread and wait patiently!


Not true. My daughter’s piano teacher is best friends with Alex’s cousin’s hairdresser, and she said that he said that she said that he said it was coming out in March next year. Or was it May?


----------



## Zhao Shen

NYC Composer said:


> I love Alex’s products, but there’s a decent amount of good brass out there. Why speculate on vapor?
> 
> (not trying to be rude, just curious).



Because there were a billion string libraries out there when CSS came out and it was astonishingly good. Still unmatched in terms of fluidity and ease of performing realistic passages. People are hoping for a round 2...


----------



## NYC Composer

I would argue with the “ease”, but yes. 
Actually, LASS is great for fluid passages.


----------



## Tekkera

jamwerks said:


> I think he already knows that if it turns out good, everyone will buy it, and if it's mediocre, almost no one will want it.
> 
> Personally I find CSSS. to be rather ordinary (mediocre), far from BST first chairs or the new SF. solo strings. Hopefully this brass will totally kick ass!
> 
> Maybe some of the setback is him implementing some kind of global delay compensation feature (like Audio Bro Genesis)? There has been lots of talk about that recently...



That's a spicy hot opinion, be careful


----------



## Grilled Cheese

chrispire said:


> My daughter’s piano teacher is best friends with Alex’s cousin’s hairdresser, and she said that he said that she said that he said it was coming out in March next year. Or was it May?


Ok so I lied about that.

I don’t actually have a daughter. 

But if I did her name would be...April.


----------



## JohnBMears

Hmmmmmm......... website is down for Cinematic Studio Series........


----------



## Grilled Cheese

This will go one of two ways...







Or






Probably the second option. If they were working on an update then they would have a notification up, not a dead site. Could just be a server down.


----------



## Saxer

JohnBMears said:


> Hmmmmmm......... website is down for Cinematic Studio Series........


Probably overloaded because of this thread.


----------



## leon chevalier




----------



## Grizzlymv

It is now back up. False alarm guys. Nothing to see here. Move on. .


----------



## axb312

Grizzlymv said:


> It is now back up. False alarm guys. Nothing to see here. Move on. .


Wish there was a dislike button here...


----------



## rottoy

This thread bumping.


----------



## Lassi Tani

Could it be 

https://bit.ly/2mzgH7d


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

sekkosiki said:


> Could it be
> https://bit.ly/2mzgH7d



Hey...something's not right about that url...


----------



## Lassi Tani

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Hey...something's not right about that url...



Isnt the url usually like that?


----------



## lucor

Clone Zone is a tool to manipulate and fake websites, no? That would be really cruel if someone actually went through the trouble of doing that, I got really excited for a second there. 
Edit: Ah yes, and of course there's the Rick Roll. Damn you...


----------



## Lassi Tani

lucor said:


> Clone Zone is a tool to manipulate and fake websites, no? That would be really cruel if someone actually went through the trouble of doing that, I got really excited for a second there.
> Edit: Ah yes, and of course there's the Rick Roll. Damn you...


----------



## Tekkera

sekkosiki said:


> Could it be
> 
> https://bit.ly/2mzgH7d


You are fake news


----------



## Lassi Tani

Tekkera said:


> You are fake news



I might be or I might be not.


----------



## desert

Tekkera said:


> You are fake news


 it was glaringly obvious on the mobile, you should have opened it on there


----------



## leon chevalier

Ok, first sorry for the bump !!!
(Actually not sorry at all I love bumping this thread )

So why this bump ?

1- CSB is the only lib that got me excited for a long time, and the more it's delayed, the more I got excited. Exciting isn't it?

2- I've noticed that since 3 days an add for CSS is displayed very, very often on the top of lastest post page. Like 2 times on 3. That may mean that Alex has bought a special add package... that may mean that he will quickly need some visibility... 

Am I a crazy fanboy over interpreting things ? Is it just a random algorithm that choose the add to display ? let's wait a couple of days !


----------



## Jdiggity1

leon chevalier said:


> Am I a crazy fanboy over interpreting things ?


yes


----------



## leon chevalier

Jdiggity1 said:


> yes


I know


----------



## rottoy

Now I'm thinking Alex will release this on multiple AKAI volumes, it's all sustains with 2 dynamic layers, velocity x-fade and subscription based.


----------



## leon chevalier

rottoy said:


> subscription based.


Or mail sended on 147 floppy disks. Let's dream !


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

leon chevalier said:


> I know


Alex might be giving us a clue in the clouds.


----------



## desert

I found this on their facebook page!!

Cinematic Studio Black??
Cinematic Studio Bows?? Expansion to csss?? 
WHAT COULD IT BE? Let’s all try and predict for another 20 pages


----------



## Lassi Tani

Does it have some legato in it? If yes, how do you like its legato?


----------



## leon chevalier

Somebody in the bus told me that the trumpet 3 legato has much, much better legato transitions than 1 and 2.




sekkosiki said:


> Does it have some legato in it? If yes, how do you like its legato?


----------



## SoNowWhat?

desert said:


> I found this on their facebook page!!
> 
> Cinematic Studio Black??
> Cinematic Studio Bows?? Expansion to csss??
> WHAT COULD IT BE? Let’s all try and predict for another 20 pages


None more black...
Let’s hope it goes to 11. 



Speaking of which this thread has literally gone to 11 for a library that hasn’t even been released yet. We’re running on fumes.


----------



## leon chevalier

SoNowWhat? said:


> Speaking of which this thread has literally gone to 11 for a library that hasn’t even been released yet.


That's the beauty of this thread! I hope everyone can see it.


----------



## N.Caffrey

bump


----------



## rottoy

N.Caffrey said:


> bump


You monster.


----------



## ToxicRecordings

N.Caffrey said:


> bump


I will find you!


----------



## N.Caffrey

sorry to be THAT guy


----------



## rottoy

N.Caffrey said:


> sorry to be THAT guy


This will be your punishment.


----------



## leon chevalier

N.Caffrey said:


> sorry to be THAT guy


Your turn !


----------



## muk

Instead of bumping this thread periodically, has anybody tried sending an email to Alex to ask what's the state of things?


----------



## rottoy

muk said:


> Instead of bumping this thread periodically, has anybody tried sending an email to Alex to ask what's the state of things?


We're not here to make sense of things, how would that reflect on V.I Control?


----------



## leon chevalier

rottoy said:


> We're not here to make sense of things, how would that reflect on V.I Control?


Yes ! There is no drama anymore on VIC, bumping this thread is only things we got to get some emotions !


----------



## Lassi Tani

bump.


----------



## Fry777

Found footage of CSB's recordings :


----------



## rottoy

Fry777 said:


> Found footage of CSB's recordings :



I humbly request a Doppler FX Trombone articulation.


----------



## RandomComposer

rottoy said:


> I humbly request a Doppler FX Trombone articulation.


So basically, a slide articulation renamed as doppler?


----------



## rottoy

RandomComposer said:


> So basically, a slide articulation renamed as doppler?


 I won't buy it if it doesn't have authentically sampled True Doppler™ samples. 
None of that slide nonsense.


----------



## RandomComposer

rottoy said:


> I won't buy it if it doesn't have authentically sampled True Doppler™ samples.
> None of that slide nonsense.


I suppose you'd also want an authentic sample of 1/3/5/10/20 trombones moving past various microphone at various speeds, including the 'mic in exhaust' position?


----------



## rottoy

Now you're speaking the Spitfire lingo that I can understand!


----------



## kurtvanzo

muk said:


> Instead of bumping this thread periodically, has anybody tried sending an email to Alex to ask what's the state of things?



Finally heard back from Alex. He just sent me a link to this thread and said “Bump it and I’ll get back to you”. I let him know we’ll need a full brass section moped doppler articulations.


----------



## constaneum

bump bump bump bump.....bumpy ride....


----------



## MA-Simon

Bump


----------



## Saxer

Cinematic Studio Bump


----------



## Leon Portelance

If and when it comes out, it comes out and I will probably buy it. If it doesn't come out, it doesn't come out. C Le'est la vie! Let's leave it to Alex.


----------



## N.Caffrey

An update from Alex would be nice


----------



## rottoy




----------



## jamwerks

Working on this brass has also seemingly stopped them from further developing the strings. With the success of CSS, you'd of thought there'd be several expansions (additional arts) by now.


----------



## axb312

@Alex W ?


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Jesus Christ kids.


----------



## NoamL

jamwerks said:


> Working on this brass has also seemingly stopped them from further developing the strings. With the success of CSS, you'd of thought there'd be several expansions (additional arts) by now.



What's needed? I'm very satisfied with it. Also keep in mind it's supposed to be a no frills library. The price point of 400 is cheaper than every other flagship strings except HWS, as far as I can remember. Adding expansions would just end up making it another Mural -> Symphonic Strings -> SSS _Pro!_ type deal.


----------



## N.Caffrey

jamwerks said:


> Working on this brass has also seemingly stopped them from further developing the strings. With the success of CSS, you'd of thought there'd be several expansions (additional arts) by now.



The only thing I'd like to see in an update (free or paid) is a double bass in CSSS.


----------



## dcoscina

I’m not clear on how some think by pestering Alex he will release Cinematic Studio Brass any sooner.. he’s one guy and he clearly has a methodology that works so give him the space to do what needs to be done and he will release it when it’s ready. Personally I have super respect for his marketing strategy which basically is that he releases a product with no pre-release teasing. He lets the product, word of mouth and reviews do the talking. Much respect.


----------



## leon chevalier

rottoy said:


>


For a second, I thought it was it ! Best meme ever !


----------



## Michael Stibor

dcoscina said:


> I’m not clear on how some think by pestering Alex he will release Cinematic Studio Brass any sooner.. he’s one guy and he clearly has a methodology that works so give him the space to do what needs to be done and he will release it when it’s ready.



I was thinking the same thing. I'm as anxious as anyone else for new news (I have brass sample library money burning a whole in my pocket) but I think his last update was pretty clear. Basically: "I'm working on it. As fast as I can". What else can we/he do?


----------



## erica-grace

dcoscina said:


> I’m not clear on how some think by pestering Alex he will release Cinematic Studio Brass any sooner..



Exactly this. Continually typing the word _bump_ in this thread is NOT going to get us any information any faster. It will, however, come when it is available.


----------



## N.Caffrey

I don't think there's any harm in asking for an update. If he says "guys, it's going to be months before it's released" I think nobody would bump the thread anymore for a while.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

N.Caffrey said:


> I don't think there's any harm in asking for an update. If he says "guys, it's going to be months before it's released" I think nobody would bump the thread anymore for a while.



But that's what he already did. It wouldn't get lost somewhere in this thread if people wouldn't "bump" the thread for no reason all the time.
Cinematic Studio Brass?

That was 3 months ago. So is he supposed to babysit this thread on a monthly basis?


----------



## N.Caffrey

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> But that's what he already did. It wouldn't get lost somewhere in this thread if people wouldn't "bump" the thread for no reason all the time.
> Cinematic Studio Brass?
> 
> That was 3 months ago. So is he supposed to babysit this thread on a monthly basis?



Then why are you checking this thread Jimmy?


----------



## Rob Elliott

N.Caffrey said:


> The only thing I'd like to see in an update (free or paid) is a double bass in CSSS.


Would pay TOP DOLLAR for this!!!!!!! LOVE CSSS


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

N.Caffrey said:


> Then why are you checking this thread Jimmy?



I'm not checking it to read the word "bump", if that's what you're asking. I'm checking it because it's being stupidly "bumped" which makes readers believe there's actual information available, or at least some interesting contributions to the topic.


----------



## erica-grace

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I'm not checking it to read the word "bump", if that's what you're asking. I'm checking it because it's being stupidly "bumped" which makes readers believe there's actual information available, or at least some interesting contributions to the topic.



Agree.


----------



## erica-grace

N.Caffrey said:


> I don't think there's any harm in asking for an update.



There is not.

If you just come on and ask if there is any info, after this thread has not been posted in for some time, there's no harm there.

But WHY do people just bump the thread by typing nothing but the word _bump_? What good does that do anyone?


----------



## maxime77

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I'm not checking it to read the word "bump", if that's what you're asking. I'm checking it because it's being stupidly "bumped" which makes readers believe there's actual information available, or at least some interesting contributions to the topic.



I think that's the point of bumping this thread, to make people feel even more excited, nothing mean 

I don't think anyone actually believes that bumping this thread will make Alex release the library quicker.


----------



## RandomComposer

I think this thread deserves to be closed or moved tbh, only serves to give people false hope and I'm sure any announcements will get their own thread


----------



## leon chevalier

Guys! It's just...
...
...
<bla bla>
...
...

Here it comes :

CINEMATIC STUDIO BUMP !!!!


----------



## Tekkera

Thread exploded


----------



## SoNowWhat?

Tekkera said:


> Thread exploded


I blame Michael Bay.


----------



## desert

Alex already posted an update. 
Whilst you are busy bumping this thread, go ahead and use your free time to search for his reply.


----------



## germancomponist

I have no idea when this lib will come out, but I am sure it will be a killer!


----------



## constaneum

i'm waiting patiently. Meanwhile.....stick with whatever brass you're currently using ! ahha


----------



## NYC Composer

***UUUUGE DISCLAIMER***

I LOVE Alex’s products, and he’s a real gentleman to deal with. I’m sure whenever it comes out, it’ll be great because he does GREAT work.

************************

BUT.... (yes, I’m that guy) with all the really good brass libraries out there, what if it’s, well, meh? Mass suicide? Self flagellation, gnashing of teeth, whales aground, flailing in shallow water??? LEMMINGS TO THE SEA????

Just curious. Thanks.


----------



## SoNowWhat?

NYC Composer said:


> ***UUUUGE DISCLAIMER***
> 
> I LOVE Alex’s products, and he’s a real gentleman to deal with. I’m sure whenever it comes out, it’ll be great because he does GREAT work.
> 
> ************************
> 
> BUT.... (yes, I’m that guy) with all the really good brass libraries out there, what if it’s, well, meh? Mass suicide? Self flagellation, gnashing of teeth, whales aground, flailing in shallow water??? LEMMINGS TO THE SEA????
> 
> Just curious. Thanks.


Yeah, I know right. I have some really good brass so this one wasn’t as high on my radar as Woodwinds and Perc. I’ll wait til they’re “meh” before I wander too close to any cliffs.


----------



## Saxer

NYC Composer said:


> what if it’s, well, meh?


Read the VSL Synchron Strings thread to get an impression...


----------



## SoNowWhat?

Saxer said:


> Read the VSL Synchron Strings thread to get an impression...


Is it worth it? I stayed out of that one as I don’t have/want any VSL.


----------



## Symfoniq

SoNowWhat? said:


> Is it worth it? I stayed out of that one as I don’t have/want any VSL.



No, it isn't worth it. And no, it isn't worth it.


----------



## kurtvanzo

I just think it’s funny that the people complaining about the thread being bumped are bumping the thread.

You’d think they’d realize Alex would start his own thread and not use this one (his post would just get lost on page....). So they should just stop checking this thread. Or deal with what they find when they do. Yes?

As you were...


----------



## eli0s

Saxer said:


> Read the VSL Synchron Strings thread to get an impression...


Well, vsl made some very bold statements for their upcoming strings and also had early adopters pre-orders...
So they deserved the response they got.
Alex hasn't made any of that, the opposite perhaps, he just delivers a functional, all around great product. I hope he won't break the tradition with csb!


----------



## kavinsky

stahp


----------



## MA-Simon

Could it be close?

... nah, not yet. D:


----------



## Jdiggity1

Next person to post in here is getting blocked


----------



## paulmatthew




----------



## Alex W

Hi everyone - just want to say thanks for your support and patience over these many months. Really appreciate it! I know it's taken longer than we expected but I just wanted to let you know that we're almost there and CSB will be out in a few weeks. If you'd like to have a listen to a few demos we've got some info on our Studio Series website here: www.cinematicstudioseries.com/brass.html. Hope you like it! Let me know what you think.

(For more information, check out the official announcement thread in the Commercial forum here: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/cinematic-studio-brass-upcoming-release.76830/ )

~ Alex


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic

Alex W said:


> Hi everyone - just want to say thanks for your support and patience over these many months. Really appreciate it! I know it's taken longer than we expected but I just wanted to let you know that we're almost there and CSB will be out in a few weeks. If you'd like to have a listen to a few demos we've got some info on our Studio Series website here: www.cinematicstudioseries.com/brass.html. Hope you like it! Let me know what you think.
> 
> ~ Alex


YAY! Welcome back Alex!


----------



## Grilled Cheese




----------



## erica-grace

Have to be honest - I am not too crazy about the sound. Sounds _small_ to my ears.

In any event, I wish Alex and co. the best of luck with this.


----------



## markleake

Dog vs. Cat perspective...


----------



## JohnBMears

erica-grace said:


> Have to be honest - I am not too crazy about the sound. Sounds _small_ to my ears.
> 
> In any event, I wish Alex and co. the best of luck with this.



Interested in hearing the legato scripting, but concerning size- I'd say it's perfect. The size of CSS wouldn't warrant any sizes bigger than Berlin Brass, and one thing that Hollywood Brass has which I think is useful is pairs of players. As a brass player I think sampling two has been a highly-needed element in a brass library. I'd assume you can find good results from transposing and layering as well as adding the soloist patches in. CSS needed it's version of Hollywood Brass to be a great compliment and if the articulation consistency is as consistent as it is for CSS, I think we're all in for a great treat!


----------



## NoamL

I own way too many brass libraries already. Here's what STILL excites me about CSB from the demos:

"Edge of Reality" - really impressive demo. The smooth crescendo from mp to fff with no tangible "breaks" for both short and sustain articulations. Not something you can do with Hollywood Brass for instance, there's a really obvious break at 91 velocity for most of the shorts. There are many competing brass libraries released since HWB that APPEAR to have better programming but that's because their layers are close together and don't represent the full dynamic range of the instrument (had unfortunate experiences with Auddict & Orchestral Tools brass for this reason). This sounds like there may well be 4 dynamic layers sampled for all the sustains, and the 4th is a truly blasting fff that I've only heard captured by Performance Samples and Musical Sampling's Trailer Brass.

"The Long Road" - the solo tpt just seems really well recorded and fits nicely with the strings. The low brass have that really nice warm round quality that I tend to use Berlin Brass for right now.

"Vanguard" - agility & very natural switching back and forth between shorts and longs.

The general sound. Tight, controlled, sounds like a studio.

Having mutes, flz and rips in one package. There have been a few really nice libraries like Adventure Brass and Caspian that sell as "alternatives" to the main flagship brass libraries out there, but then you need to go back to HWB or Spitfire or OT for the special articulations. Century Brass was another recent library that was aiming for the all-artics-in-one library approach. This is cheaper and IMO sounds better.

Also notice, at least according to the GUI, there are *two* legato speeds! The biggest nuance and selling point of CSS carries over to the brass.

In the same vein, separately recorded tenor and bass trombones, nice.

So those are all great.

What I'm not excited about: Well, the design doc is finally revealed and it's NOT an individual-instruments library like Berlin, so Berlin & Chris Hein remain the sole contenders in that category if I remember correctly. Realistically, that wasn't going to be an option for CSB because this has always been a "bread and butter essentials" designed orchestra.... but a guy can dream....

Instead of the Berlin approach, this is more like Hollywood Brass - soloists and ensembles:

2 Trumpets
Solo Trumpet
4 French Horns
Solo French Horn
2 Trombones
Solo Trombone
Bass Trombone
Tuba
The ensembles & soloists chosen seem reasonable, but I think choosing between 1 horn and 4 will be the biggest gap (a2 horns would have been a great addition). It's possible that a3 trumpets and a6 horns might be another itch that can't be scratched, but maybe layering the soloists with the ensembles will produce a sufficient a3 tpt and a5 horn sound.

On the other hand the low brass seems really well represented. Another place several post-HWB competing libraries cut corners is they don't give you a tuba or there's just one size of trombone ensemble. Here there's 3 low brass soloists plus the ability to make all kinds of combo ensembles.


----------



## muziksculp

Congratulations Alex. Finally CSB is materializing  

The demos sound very good, although, I would have added a tad more of a hall reverb to the brass which would have made them sound a bit lusher, and bigger sounding, and maybe sit better in the mix. 

The timbre, and dynamics of CSB sound very good. A walkthrough video will hopefully be posted in the near future. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## Grilled Cheese

First impressions- Demos sound great to me!


----------



## markleake

Sounds great to me! The 2 trumpets are mixed soft sometimes in the demos to rein them in, and the lower brass is very enthusiastic, so it's a bit hard to get a full feel for everything yet, but the sizing sounds right to me to match CSS.

And they sound pretty real to me in the demos... some brass can struggle a lot with that, so in this case it seems like that isn't an issue here at all.

The bones and tubas sound very dramatic and biting, which is going to be very useful. The solo trumpet and horn sound fantastic. Not too much vibrato on the trumpet, which is good news.

The crescendos sound very good, which is a good sign too. 

It sounds like they all do FF very well, so here's hoping it also does a warm soft PP very well also.


----------



## Brian Nowak

I think maybe there's just been so much gigantic ridiculous brass released people are sometimes not used to hearing "normal" sounding brass. 

I think it sounds great. More than great, in fact. Given how consistent and wonderfully programmable CSS is, I'm sure CSB will also be a joy to work with. 

I'm definitely keen on it.


----------



## rottoy

I am very curious to how the room mics sound on their own. I've never been very fond of close miced brass, so I would love to hear how much these players excite the room the library is recorded in.


----------



## Raphioli

Loving the sound of the Trumpets and French Horns.
Legatos sound great as always. 
And that bite!

It would be cool if there would be walkthrough videos.
I'm also curious on how the individual mics sound.


----------



## Grilled Cheese

Escapade demo - 20 seconds. Love those shorts. At that soft dynamic they are plump and warm and yummy.


----------



## resound

This sounds amazing! True brass. I am very excited about this. The dynamic range sounds great and the ensemble sizes seem pretty flexible.


----------



## Kony

markleake said:


> a warm soft PP


 lol


----------



## markleake

Kony said:


> lol


LOL. Had to read that a few times before I go you.


----------



## lucor

NoamL said:


> The ensembles & soloists chosen seem reasonable, but I think choosing between 1 horn and 4 will be the biggest gap (a2 horns would have been a great addition). It's possible that a3 trumpets and a6 horns might be another itch that can't be scratched, but maybe layering the soloists with the ensembles will produce a sufficient a3 tpt and a5 horn sound.


The beautiful thing about Alex's libraries is that everything is so incredibly consistent that you can most certainly just throw the soloists and ensembles together in one patch with the same midi data, and it will just work.
And if the transposition trick works as well as it does with CSSS (see here for example: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/customized-css-csss-violins-for-flow-and-cohesion.76530/), you can easily build your own a6 and a2 ensembles as well.


----------



## erica-grace

Brian Nowak said:


> I think maybe there's just been so much gigantic ridiculous brass released people are sometimes not used to hearing "normal" sounding brass.



I have to say, I don't agree here. If you compare CSB with Forzo, and Talas, the Albions, etc., maybe. But comparing to normal brass libraries, like EW and BB, this sounds a lot smaller than those. Maybe it's the room - not sure.


----------



## axb312

Alex W said:


> Hi everyone - just want to say thanks for your support and patience over these many months. Really appreciate it! I know it's taken longer than we expected but I just wanted to let you know that we're almost there and CSB will be out in a few weeks. If you'd like to have a listen to a few demos we've got some info on our Studio Series website here: www.cinematicstudioseries.com/brass.html. Hope you like it! Let me know what you think.
> 
> ~ Alex



Thank you.

1. Would love to hear some demos with more percussion - in a more epic style to hear if the library can do the huge/ epic style or not (since the section sizes seem small).

2. Is this library going to have the same silly ms delay/ compensation requirements like CSS and CSSS?

3. What will the price be for CSS and CSSS owners?

4. Any chance this is accompanied by a ms compensated patches for CSS and CSSS ?

5. What does long-form legato mean?

6. How much space does this library take up?

7. How many dynamic layers on average?

8. How many round robins for shorts?

9. Why not record bigger sections?


----------



## Casiquire

NoamL said:


> What I'm not excited about: Well, the design doc is finally revealed and it's NOT an individual-instruments library like Berlin, so Berlin & Chris Hein remain the sole contenders in that category if I remember correctly.



There's also Samplemodeling and with the exception of the low brass patch, Dimension Brass


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

axb312 said:


> 4. Any chance this is accompanied by a ms compensated patches for CSS and CSSS ?


Isn't that essentially what the classic legato patches are?


----------



## lucor

axb312 said:


> 2. Is this library going to have the same silly ms delay/ compensation requirements like CSS and CSSS?


IMO there's absolutely nothing that's silly about it. EVERY legato patch has delay compensation requirements, that's just the nature of the beast and how legato patches work. At least with CSS you get a consistent delay (or 3 for the advanced patches) and not one that's all over the place and has to be adjusted for every single note, which I think is beautiful and should be standard for all libraries out there.


----------



## axb312

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Isn't that essentially what the classic legato patches are?



Classic legato didn't sound the same to me.


----------



## axb312

lucor said:


> IMO there's absolutely nothing that's silly about it. EVERY legato patch has delay compensation requirements, that's just the nature of the beast and how legato patches work. At least with CSS you get a consistent delay (or 3 for the advanced patches) and not one that's all over the place and has to be adjusted for every single note, which I think is beautiful and should be standard for all libraries out there.



This is ok if your DAW makes it easy to compensate for the ms delay based on velocity. Mine doesn't. I think most people spend time with CSS and CSSS nudging notes after playing them in to get them to line up. Not a workflow I like.

I have one other string library right now - the Sordinos from 8Dio and I can just hard quantize the legato there and everything sounds in time.


----------



## NoamL

What's your DAW? Maybe people here can give you a hand.

I used to do the note budging thing, then I wrote a script in LogicX that solves it really well. See my signature if you happen to use Logic.

@Ihnoc wrote another good script if you care to dive into Kontakt scripting. That one should work with any DAW as far as I know.


----------



## axb312

NoamL said:


> What's your DAW? Maybe people here can give you a hand.
> 
> I used to do the note budging thing, then I wrote a script in LogicX that solves it really well. See my signature if you happen to use Logic.
> 
> @Ihnoc wrote another good script if you care to dive into Kontakt scripting. That one should work with any DAW as far as I know.



Tried the AVO script. It was confusing. I think this is something Alex should fix though, since I've already paid him for it (sure I paid for the product as is, but I don't think Alex should be averse to making it easier to use).


----------



## CT

erica-grace said:


> Have to be honest - I am not too crazy about the sound. Sounds _small_ to my ears.



I agree. Definitely need to hear the different mic options. Punchy and close is all well and good, but most of the time I like brass to be far more airy.

The legatos and dynamics are really smooth, almost to the point where you don't notice how smooth they are, because it just sounds... natural.


----------



## Alex W

Hi folks, 

Sorry - I realise there are two threads now. I was originally just dropping in to this thread to say hi. I did post more details in the commercial announcement one: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/cinematic-studio-brass-upcoming-release.76830/

We’ll be adding more information, videos etc to the site over the coming weeks leading up to release. This will answer a lot of questions.

In the meantime, @axb312 

I’m sure someone will do one of these before too long
Others have answered this, but I’ll just add that the delay overall is generally less than in CSS, and easier to use. We’ve actually been working on a legato update for CSS for some time, which will bring it in line with the new legato system we developed for CSB.
Once you own CSS, the loyalty price for CSB will be $279, regardless of which other libraries you have. If you only have CSSS or CS2, the price will be $299.
Covered in question 2, but I’ll add that there are no classic patches for CSB.
This means we sampled long legato transitions - we believe this is a key factor for increased realism, as you’re hearing a longer musical performance of a note before it x-fades into the sustain sample.
Around 37GB
4
plenty!
CSS features a medium sized section, which we felt could cover both large and small sounds quite comfortably, and we feel the same about CSB.

Thanks!


----------



## axb312

Alex W said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> Sorry - I realise there are two threads now. I was originally just dropping in to this thread to say hi. I did post more details in the commercial announcement one: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/cinematic-studio-brass-upcoming-release.76830/
> 
> We’ll be adding more information, videos etc to the site over the coming weeks leading up to release. This will answer a lot of questions.
> 
> In the meantime, @axb312
> 
> I’m sure someone will do one of these before too long
> Others have answered this, but I’ll just add that the delay overall is generally less than in CSS, and easier to use. We’ve actually been working on a legato update for CSS for some time, which will bring it in line with the new legato system we developed for CSB.
> Once you own CSS, the loyalty price for CSB will be $279, regardless of which other libraries you have. If you only have CSSS or CS2, the price will be $299.
> Covered in question 2, but I’ll add that there are no classic patches for CSB.
> This means we sampled long legato transitions - we believe this is a key factor for increased realism, as you’re hearing a longer musical performance of a note before it x-fades into the sustain sample.
> Around 37GB
> 4
> plenty!
> CSS features a medium sized section, which we felt could cover both large and small sounds quite comfortably, and we feel the same about CSB.
> 
> Thanks!



Thank you! Do wish the epic demo could come from you (since you're the only one with access right now) - but thanks for all the answers! Also looking forward to that CSS update....


----------



## col

Nice one Alex - just in time - I won't blow the budget on any old cheap tat BF sales now.
Well maybe one...or two


----------



## Michael Stibor

axb312 said:


> Thank you! Do wish the epic demo could come from you (since you're the only one with access right now) - but thanks for all the answers! Also looking forward to that CSS update....


Personally I hope someone is working on the opposite, which is to say a non-epic demo. While I like the demos posted, I would need to hear how comfortable CSB would be with softer and more intimate and subtle orchestral passages.
But hey there's room for epic an non epic demos. I want to hear it all!


----------



## NoamL

4 dynamic layers confirmed

Wow, this has thrown a huge wrench into my Black Friday


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

axb312 said:


> Tried the AVO script. It was confusing. I think this is something Alex should fix though, since I've already paid him for it (sure I paid for the product as is, but I don't think Alex should be averse to making it easier to use).


I can't speak to CSB or the new legato system, but from what I understand I don't think it's possible to "fix" CSS.

Here's the idea: If you have a sound that connects each combination of notes (aka the legato transitions), you'll need to know which note you are connecting to _before_ you can trigger the transition. If that connecting sound lasts any significant amount of time, which it needs to do in order to sound realistic, it will necessarily cause a delay.

CSS can't see into the future (as you perform live), and it also can't see what midi notes are up ahead in your DAW because DAWs can't pass that information to Kontakt instruments, not the way they are currently designed.

So it starts the transition when you hit the ending note, and the transition itself takes time, and that amount of time it takes is the amount of delay until it catches up to that ending note.

Most companies give you a legato with a very short delay. CSS does that too: the classic legato. But CSS also gives the delayed legato which sounds better. But it's not possible to achieve that sound without the delay.

CSS isn't taking something away from you by adding a legato with delay, it's giving you another option.


----------



## Grilled Cheese

mikefrommontreal said:


> Personally I hope someone is working on the opposite, which is to say a non-epic demo. While I like the demos posted, I would need to hear how comfortable CSB would be with softer and more intimate and subtle orchestral passages.


+1


----------



## Gzu

Instant buy for me!
Amazing!! Just Amazing! I always knew that this library would be "the" brass library!


----------



## Zhao Shen

I do hope that in the future an update for larger section sizes is added. Given that it sounds like they absolutely nailed the FF legato, I just think there's a lot of untapped potential there.


----------



## jamwerks

I have high hopes also. In the walk-through we'll hear just how good the crossfading between the different layers is. Devs have come a long way in recent months/years. Hopping this will be top notch!!


----------



## ysnyvz

Zhao Shen said:


> I do hope that in the future an update for larger section sizes is added. Given that it sounds like they absolutely nailed the FF legato, I just think there's a lot of untapped potential there.


You can use detune and transpose trick. I used it with CSS a few times to make it epic.


----------



## Raphioli

wow, that loyalty price....

I mean, the price was already good, especially considering the quality and comparing it with other libraries. 
So I actually thought the guy was asking too much, but wow, even cheaper for CSS/CSSS owners...

I dunno what to say.


----------



## cyoder

The term "fix" when used about legato delay in CSS/CSSS is always troublesome to me, since the delay is part of the core concept IMO. But the problem could refer to two things and when there are complaints it's not always specified which.

1. It could refer to the fact that different negative ms offsets for different articulations, which I agree could be improved upon to reduce complexity. I'm hopeful Alex Ws hint about different handling of legato in CSB and an update to CSS could solve this one.

2. It could refer to there being a delay at all, which I don't understand because the quality of legato is achieved through the delay. If that's the complaint, it feels akin to saying "I like cars and how I can go faster than horse drawn carriages in them, but I wish Ford would fix how loud they are by removing the motor. I know I could use horse drawn carriages instead but I don't like them since they don't go as fast." 

That tangent aside, I'm really excited about CSB! Especially some of the solo trumpet legato lines sounded more lyrical and connected than I've heard in sample libraries so far.


----------



## Raphioli

cyoder said:


> The term "fix" when used about legato delay in CSS/CSSS is always troublesome to me, since the delay is part of the core concept IMO.


and @Alex W

My feelings are completely the same.
I feel thats one of the reasons CSS's legato sounds so good.



Alex W said:


> Others have answered this, but I’ll just add that the delay overall is generally less than in CSS, and easier to use. We’ve actually been working on a legato update for CSS for some time, which will bring it in line with the new legato system we developed for CSB.



I hope this patch you're working on doesn't sacrifice anything from the original legato patches.
If its going to, I hope you make it a completely different patch.
Or, I'll just archive the one I currently have just incase.

I understand that dealing with the various delay lengths might be a headache, but the end results are worth it imo.


----------



## erica-grace

miket said:


> I agree. Definitely need to hear the different mic options. Punchy and close is all well and good, but most of the time I like brass to be far more airy.




"Airy" - that's the word I was also looking for. It's not airy enough.

But yes, sure, I would like to hear a walkthrough and hear different mics. Who knows, maybe the library can sound better with mixing different mics?


----------



## JohnBMears

lucor said:


> IMO there's absolutely nothing that's silly about it. EVERY legato patch has delay compensation requirements, that's just the nature of the beast and how legato patches work. At least with CSS you get a consistent delay (or 3 for the advanced patches) and not one that's all over the place and has to be adjusted for every single note, which I think is beautiful and should be standard for all libraries out there.



Yeah, odd to see someone ask questions about a developer's new library while describing their other library as silly.


----------



## kavinsky

Alex knows how to make a good library. I don't have any problems with the sound, CSS is pretty raw and unprocessed aswell and its great for toneshaping
Just listen to the timing of those shorts, unlike anything else on the market these are edited correctly and do not feel sloppy.

I'll get it pretty much blindly, but still I wonder how many RRs is there exactly, the answer "plenty" isn't satisfying to be honest
CSS has 4 layers/5 samples per layer, which is not a lot by today's standards
I assume its the same thing with the brass.


----------



## garylionelli

erica-grace said:


> Have to be honest - I am not too crazy about the sound. Sounds _small_ to my ears.



Couldn't disagree more. It sounds huge, and real. Judging from the demos, this is the first library I've heard that has the immediacy and punch of live recorded brass.


----------



## erica-grace

garylionelli said:


> Couldn't disagree more. It sounds huge, and real. Judging from the demos, this is the first library I've heard that has the immediacy and punch of live recorded brass.



Can't agree with that at all - sorry


----------



## Tekkera

kavinsky said:


> Alex knows how to make a good library. I don't have any problems with the sound, CSS is pretty raw and unprocessed aswell and its great for toneshaping
> Just listen to the timing of those shorts, unlike anything else on the market these are edited correctly and do not feel sloppy.
> 
> I'll get it pretty much blindly, but still I wonder how many RRs is there exactly, the answer "plenty" isn't satisfying to be honest
> CSS has 4 layers/5 samples per layer, which is not a lot by today's standards
> I assume its the same thing with the brass.


4 is quite enough. Most libraries use three or four.


----------



## garylionelli

erica-grace said:


> Can't agree with that at all - sorry


For sure Erica - compared to some other libraries with assembled huge sections, it may sound smaller. I'm comparing it to live brass in a studio setting with normal sized sections, and that I'm used to working with and hearing. It sounds very realistic and uncompressed in that regard, and I'm looking forward to working with this library for mockups. As always, and as with any library or live group, it's the writing and orchestration that is the determining factor, but with what Alex has done here, we're going to get that much closer to having the two sounding very close. Can't wait to get it.


----------



## Consona

I will judge after the walkthrough but so far it sounds very good to me.


----------



## kavinsky

Tekkera said:


> 4 is quite enough. Most libraries use three or four.


that is correct, but there are some that use a lot more samples
depends on what you're writing of course, I prefer having a lot more samples for fast spiccato lines


----------



## jamwerks

I think Alex choose the perfect Hall for the Cinematic Studio series. Any bigger or "live'er" and it would become a one trick pony like (imo) the SF Air Studios libraries.
Any "air" should be gettable in the artifical reverb that we add if wanted.


----------



## germancomponist

Yeah, a lib recorded on this stage gives us many options, and I like this. And yeah, it sounds good to my ears.


----------



## muziksculp

jamwerks said:


> Any "air" should be gettable in the artifical reverb that we add if wanted.



Yes, that's what I hear missing in the demos. As I mentioned in my earlier post, a tad more of a hall-reverb is what I feel the demos need. But that's just what I think, and it is all a matter of taste. I find the brass in the posted demos sounding a bit boxy, or too close for my taste, it could also be the combination of Mics used in the mix.


----------



## germancomponist

muziksculp said:


> Yes, that's what I hear missing in the demos. As I mentioned in my earlier post, a tad more of a hall-reverb is what I feel the demos need. But that's just what I think, and it is all a matter of taste. I find the brass in the posted demos sounding a bit boxy, or too close for my taste, it could also be the combination of Mics used in the mix.


And I especially like this sound, so you can add whatever you want later ...


----------



## CT

garylionelli said:


> compared to some other libraries with assembled huge sections, it may sound smaller.



It's not the numbers that make it sound small to me (I am all for more practical-sized brass libraries), it's the perspective.

It's true that you can slap reverb on anything for more "air," but reverb on top of very close recordings just never sounds right. I'm sure the mic positions will offer flexibility. Looking forward to hearing them in isolation.


----------



## germancomponist

miket said:


> It's not the numbers that make it sound small to me (I am all for more practical-sized brass libraries), it's the perspective.
> 
> It's true that you can slap reverb on anything for more "air," but reverb on top of very close recordings just never sounds right. I'm sure the mic positions will offer flexibility. Looking forward to hearing them in isolation.


.... and you can add early reflections, before u add a reverb. Yes, no?


----------



## CT

germancomponist said:


> .... and you can add early reflections, before u add a reverb. Yes, no?



I think we've talked about this before! For me, no amount of digital trickery comes even remotely close to the real thing. My days of playing those games are over.


----------



## kavinsky

miket said:


> I think we've talked about this before! For me, no amount of digital trickery comes even remotely close to the real thing.


its really impossible to create a convincing artificial space. 
But CSB is lively enough to my ears. if its the same hall, there shouldnt be any problems getting a nice room sound out of it


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

I love how CSS was done. It has the sense of space and depth, but not the excessive wash. A bit of a reverb tail on top is all it takes. It sounds "real", but still remains tight and flexible.

SSB seems to be in the same vein - tight, punchy and textured. Really happy that it's not "big ass brass".The whole oversized ensembles and crazy ass ambience schtick is essentially nonsense and kind of a fad. Really looking forward to this library!


----------



## NoamL

There's plenty of air and also stereo width, in the "Room" mic of CSS. The brass does sound pretty close, but I bet the Decca perspective will be fine.

If I mistake not, the "Main" mic of CSS is the Decca tree and the "Room" are some kind of outriggers or ambience mics, not too much further back; in any case it feels like an increase in width equal or greater than an increase in depth. In the brass GUI that's on the website, although it may be a placeholder, we can see at least one mic is called "Room." So I guess that there is a Room, Main/Decca, and a close section or perhaps even spot mic. There looks like room in the GUI for three mics and a baked mix mic, the same as CSS.


----------



## germancomponist

miket said:


> I think we've talked about this before! For me, no amount of digital trickery comes even remotely close to the real thing. My days of playing those games are over.


And now?


----------



## garylionelli

They add reverb to film scores all the time; rarely does a scoring stage have enough. 6 Bricasti verbs on Alan Meyerson's mixes.


----------



## muziksculp

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> A bit of a reverb tail on top is all it takes



Yes, that's all one needs to add to give it a bit more air.


----------



## JC_

To me the brass sounds great. I do think these demos sound like they were mixed with the brass a little too forward (probably to emphasize the brass) and also the demos could use some boominess in the bottom end to give them a bit fuller sound at times. Overall, I'm very impressed and excited.


----------



## jamwerks

I don't think anyone is proposing to use just the close mic's, add verb and expect a big room sound. Add verb to just the main and room mic's, or the mix position. Something like the "Berlin Church" ir in Spaces would add all needed air imo, if you want that kind of sound.


----------



## FinGael

erica-grace said:


> Have to be honest - I am not too crazy about the sound. Sounds _small_ to my ears.
> 
> In any event, I wish Alex and co. the best of luck with this.



I like this more traditional approach to section sizes, and do not see it as a problem.

If it does not sound big enough, you can layer other brass libraries (or synths), filter and pan them to your liking, while letting the CSB form the core sound and "skeletal structure" of the brass. The library seems to have the upper dynamics well covered, and has quite brassy and aggressive tone at the higher dynamic levels; that helps to create a powerful and brassy sound in layering.

Usually most of the times bigger, massive sounding brass is needed in hybrid productions, and in that kind of material you do not have to be bound to restrictions of the traditional orchestra.


----------



## CT

germancomponist said:


> And now?



Now I wait, save money, and buy better VI's from developers who understand the importance of capturing the space, whether large or small, and also real perspective (depth and seating in the stereo field).

Once this whole series is complete, that may well include Alex Wallbank!


----------



## kavinsky

garylionelli said:


> They add reverb to film scores all the time; rarely does a scoring stage have enough. 6 Bricasti verbs on Alan Meyerson's mixes.


yes but its function is to extend the existing space, extremely rarely to artificially replace it
of course in some cases the soloists/synths are recorded dry and the space is simulated, but for ensembles it wouldn't work that well, too much of a contrast
additionally, you can't really record an ensemble completely dry as there wouldn't be enough room for the players physically (especially the kinds of ensembles Alan is working with)


----------



## jamwerks

The only instrument that seems to be "missing" would be a Horns a2. In at least one of the demos seems he was using the a4 instrument for some 4 part chords. A2 doesn't sound necessarily smaller, just better for beefy 4 part writing, and nice even for quieter stuff. Guess he had to draw the line somewhere.


----------



## FinGael

jamwerks said:


> I don't think anyone is proposing to use just the close mic's, add verb and expect a big room sound. Add verb to just the main and room mic's, or the mix position. Something like the "Berlin Church" ir in Spaces would add all needed air imo, if you want that kind of sound.



Little offtopic. Sorry about that...

Got an idea reading your post. A fun challenge: who creates the best (sounding) space with some chosen orchestral patch, using only close mics and reverbs. I think something valuable could be found in the process.


----------



## SoNowWhat?

mikefrommontreal said:


> Personally I hope someone is working on the opposite, which is to say a non-epic demo. While I like the demos posted, I would need to hear how comfortable CSB would be with softer and more intimate and subtle orchestral passages.
> But hey there's room for epic an non epic demos. I want to hear it all!


Going on the sound of trumpet legato in demos I’m thinking it will handle softer, intimate brass choir well. Of course I could be wrong and am making many assumptions here and the picture will become clearer with time.


----------



## rottoy

I wonder how well CSB would tackle this gorgeous brass chorale from John Williams much underrated "The Patriot".


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

rottoy said:


> I wonder how well CSB would tackle this gorgeous brass chorale from John Williams much underrated "The Patriot".



At 5:40 you can hear his theme for the NBC Nightly News.


----------



## germancomponist

Land of Missing Parts said:


> At 5:40 you can hear his theme for the NBC Nightly News.


What a great find!


----------



## Casiquire

These sound great to me, big and authentic with what sounds like the ability to convincingly play softly as well, an underappreciated ability in my opinion. We're too obsessed with "big" when this, and even Hollywood Brass in a recent thread, aren't "big" enough. Bigger than this is just cheesy to me.


----------



## Architekton

Demos are mixed weird and seems there is not enough of reverb on the brass section. I believe with proper mix this library will shine!


----------



## maxime77

Alex's point was probably to demonstrate that this library is flexible and does not have any baked-in reverb. But I agree that hearing the brass that dry and sound very close is disturbing.


----------



## Nils Neumann

I really love CSS and CSSS, but I don't feel the demos at all. Low Brass is so loud and can't I hear the Horns and Trumpets clearly. I hope there are some other demos on the way.


----------



## jamwerks

Yes as @Casiquire said, it'll be nice to have a library that does the soft stuff also. Guess that's where doing the 6 different layers comes in. There is so much timbral change that occurs on brass instruments going from soft to loud.

FWIW, Century Brass is really a fantastic library, but doesn't really have a "pianissimo" layer.


----------



## JPQ

I hoep someonemakes softer side dmeos someday.


----------



## axb312

Maybe a little too early for this but CSS vs Century Brass - thoughts?


----------



## Nils Neumann

axb312 said:


> Maybe a little too early for this but CSS vs Century Brass - thoughts?


Yes to early


----------



## MA-Simon

First of all: YESSSSSSSSssssssss! Finally it is here!

I don't think the brass sounds small at all.
Thank you for that very generous loyalty price!

_Woodwinds next?_


----------



## boxheadboy50

Say what you will about mixing (which isn't that bad IMHO; have you *HEARD *live tenor/bass trombones give 'er hell over an orchestra before??), but as a (former) orchestral trumpet player, this library makes me tingle with delight!

I have a pretty high standard for orchestral brass - and that's what this is, ORCHESTRAL brass - and all the demos are pretty flippin' great to my ears. Insta-buy, in my opinion.

Those who are accustomed to gigantic a6, a12, aInfinity brass libraries may be initially skeptical of its appearance, ie. lack of "bigness," or "epicness," but there's at least one demo there that seems to be rockin' some socks on the "epic" scale. I think this will be a great bread 'n' butter brass library and, with _maybe_ a little tinkering, could serve just as well in epic, trailer-type cues.

Size-wise, at first I was disappointed by the relatively small section sizes. However, Alex himself stated that he wanted this to match up with CSS in that regard. I myself needed a reminder that this is an *orchestral* library and the section sizes are just that. This isn't some Zimmer-esque-15-trombone-make-your-eyes-bleed kind of library.

Even with the "smaller" size, man, those horns sound pretty thick. Obviously the low brass is ass-kicking, and the trumpets are among the most realistic samples I've ever heard (in the demos they've posted, anyway). I think monster trailer composers will be happy with this, too!


----------



## SoNowWhat?

boxheadboy50 said:


> Say what you will about mixing (which isn't that bad IMHO; have you *HEARD *live tenor/bass trombones give 'er hell over an orchestra before??), but as a (former) orchestral trumpet player, this library makes me tingle with delight!
> 
> I have a pretty high standard for orchestral brass - and that's what this is, ORCHESTRAL brass - and all the demos are pretty flippin' great to my ears. Insta-buy, in my opinion.
> 
> Those who are accustomed to gigantic a6, a12, aInfinity brass libraries may be initially skeptical of its appearance, ie. lack of "bigness," or "epicness," but there's at least one demo there that seems to be rockin' some socks on the "epic" scale. I think this will be a great bread 'n' butter brass library and, with _maybe_ a little tinkering, could serve just as well in epic, trailer-type cues.
> 
> Size-wise, at first I was disappointed by the relatively small section sizes. However, Alex himself stated that he wanted this to match up with CSS in that regard. I myself needed a reminder that this is an *orchestral* library and the section sizes are just that. This isn't some Zimmer-esque-15-trombone-make-your-eyes-bleed kind of library.
> 
> Even with the "smaller" size, man, those horns sound pretty thick. Obviously the low brass is ass-kicking, and the trumpets are among the most realistic samples I've ever heard (in the demos they've posted, anyway). I think monster trailer composers will be happy with this, too!


Oh good. So it’s not just me then. Agreed, on the first listen (and despite my excitement I’m patiently waiting for more detailed info) the trumpets sound excellent. Spot on in fact.

For me the biggest question so far is around the horns. I’d like to hear them soloed.

I’ve got brass covered pretty much and could easily say I don’t need this, but the sounds in those first demos definitely has my attention.


----------



## NoamL

Regarding the brass ensemble size question

This is a really nicely written and orchestrated piece and I have nothing bad to say about the composer:



HOWEVER if you are a fan of symphonic soundtracks, something that sticks out here is that the 11 piece Berlin Brass (which is the normal size for JW's orchestra) is overwhelming the 28 piece Berlin Strings. BST is half the size of the string sections JW has used on many symphonic scores (60-65 players), an ensemble size which both "Hollywood" Strings and "L.A. Scoring" Strings matched deliberately.

CSS has a healthy body to the sound but it's still a studio string orchestra, 35 players (including the solos IIRC). Having much bigger brass sections would totally overmatch the orchestra. Even now, because CSB clearly has a higher dynamic range than Berlin Brass (can confidently say that just from the demos we heard), those 3 trumpets can blast across the rest of the orchestra in classic JW fashion without any need of some JW-at-the-Olympics a6 ensemble. 

I too am curious about the horns though!


----------



## constaneum

Did Alex mention that it'll be for kontakt 5 or 6 ? I hope it's still for 5. Pray.


----------



## RandomComposer

constaneum said:


> Did Alex mention that it'll be for kontakt 5 or 6 ? I hope it's still for 5. Pray.


It's for Kontakt Player, so even if it needs 6 you can just use the free Kontakt Player 6.


----------



## constaneum

RandomComposer said:


> It's for Kontakt Player, so even if it needs 6 you can just use the free Kontakt Player 6.



I'm on kontakt 5 full. How do I retain kontakt 5 with kontakt 6 player installation? Is it even possible ?


----------



## SoNowWhat?

constaneum said:


> I'm on kontakt 5 full. How do I retain kontakt 5 with kontakt 6 player installation? Is it even possible ?


I'd like to know this too and haven't got time to look right now. CSB isn't out yet so I guess there's still time.


----------



## RandomComposer

constaneum said:


> I'm on kontakt 5 full. How do I retain kontakt 5 with kontakt 6 player installation? Is it even possible ?


I've got Kontakt 6 player installed while retaining Kontakt 5 full, the plugins show up as 'Kontakt5' and 'Kontakt' (for K6player).


----------



## constaneum

RandomComposer said:


> I've got Kontakt 6 player installed while retaining Kontakt 5 full, the plugins show up as 'Kontakt5' and 'Kontakt' (for K6player).



Cool. Gonna try after my project. Don't wanna mess with anything at the moment


----------



## lucor

@AlexanderSchiborr Did I get it right that this is not the brass library you were talking about? Meaning we have even another exciting brass library release ahead of us this month?


----------



## Giscard Rasquin

lucor said:


> @AlexanderSchiborr Did I get it right that this is not the brass library you were talking about? Meaning we have even another exciting brass library release ahead of us this month?



Was wondering the same 
Although I’ll definitely pick up this one. Demos sound amazing to my ears and CSS discount is very generous!


----------



## leon chevalier

GuitarG said:


> Was wondering the same


me too


----------



## Quodlibet

Maybe Performance Samples: Angry Brass Pro?


----------



## jamwerks

More than one person have eluded that Audiobro had something ready. I wonder what that might be?

As for CSB, the hardest instrument for brass always seems to be the horn. It'll be interesting to hear what the crossfading is like. I don't care for the BB horns, and Century Brass horns are considerably better imo.


----------



## JohnBMears

I still wish CineSamples would go back in and redo the 6 horn patch. A totally useful tool would be to have them fully re-hash the a6 legato and staccato, then record them doing just sustains with player 1&2, 3&4, 5&6 so we could build chords from the same players. Hollywood Brass's 6 Horn Ensemble is still a MAJOR reason to get it. It would be great to have that in a KONTAKT instrument. Wondering if their upcoming "90s Horns" will have that motivation?


----------



## Casiquire

jamwerks said:


> More than one person have eluded that Audiobro had something ready. I wonder what that might be?



Don't say that...my Financial Department is already glaring at me!


----------



## I like music

JohnBMears said:


> I still wish CineSamples would go back in and redo the 6 horn patch. A totally useful tool would be to have them fully re-hash the a6 legato and staccato, then record them doing just sustains with player 1&2, 3&4, 5&6 so we could build chords from the same players. Hollywood Brass's 6 Horn Ensemble is still a MAJOR reason to get it. It would be great to have that in a KONTAKT instrument. Wondering if their upcoming "90s Horns" will have that motivation?



That 6 Horn patch from EW is hall-of-fame stuff.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

lucor said:


> @AlexanderSchiborr Did I get it right that this is not the brass library you were talking about? Meaning we have even another exciting brass library release ahead of us this month?


2018, what a year for brass.


----------



## RandomComposer

Land of Missing Parts said:


> 2018, what a year for brass.


Well, the last 2 months of it...


----------



## Casiquire

Technically, MSB is 2019


----------



## constaneum

and it'll be for kontakt 6. let's hope CSB would still be for the last release of kontakt 5 (even though i'm a bit doubtful)


----------



## Kony

constaneum said:


> and it'll be for kontakt 6. let's hope CSB would still be for the last release of kontakt 5 (even though i'm a bit doubtful)


It's saying CSB will be for Kontakt 5.7+ on their website


----------



## constaneum

Kony said:


> It's saying CSB will be for Kontakt 5.7+ on their website


Yay !!!! No need kontakt 6 upgrade!! Sorry audiobro.


----------



## Pablocrespo

constaneum said:


> Yay !!!! No need kontakt 6 upgrade!! Sorry audiobro.



Modern Scoring Brass also states 5.7+ on their website, and it seems there is a third brass library coming


----------



## constaneum

Pablocrespo said:


> Modern Scoring Brass also states 5.7+ on their website, and it seems there is a third brass library coming



Spitfire studio brass this December as well. Got the info from the chat room


----------



## Nao Gam

So let me get this straight
Within a few months:
Forzo
Cinematic studio brass
Angry brass pro
Modern scoring brass
Spitfire studio brass


----------



## Kony

Nao Gam said:


> So let me get this straight
> Within a few months:
> Forzo
> Cinematic studio brass
> Angry brass pro
> Modern scoring brass
> Spitfire studio brass


Plus JXL brass


----------



## leon chevalier

I hope 2019 will be a woodwind year !


----------



## I like music

leon chevalier said:


> I hope 2019 will be a woodwind year !



What is a ... wood wind? How does one pronounce it? Is it an Omnisphere synth preset?


----------



## rottoy

I like music said:


> What is a ... wood wind? How does one pronounce it? Is it an Omnisphere synth preset?


I think it's a receptacle in which Heinrich Chrysler vomits after a bender at the Sploshflame crib.


----------



## boxheadboy50

Nao Gam said:


> Angry brass pro


Did I miss something?


----------



## Nao Gam

boxheadboy50 said:


> Did I miss something?


https://performancesamples.com/
There was a thread about it too


----------



## boxheadboy50

Nao Gam said:


> https://performancesamples.com/
> There was a thread about it too


Well, I'll be!


----------



## I like music

rottoy said:


> I think it's a receptacle in which Heinrich Chrysler vomits after a bender at the Sploshflame crib.



Funniest edit ever...


----------



## Saxer

I like music said:


> What is a ... wood wind?


Steve Winwood


----------



## Nao Gam

Saxer said:


> Steve Winwood


Aren't you technically a woodwind?


----------



## Saxer

Nao Gam said:


> Aren't you technically a woodwind?


Yepp... sax, flute, windcontroller... nothing made of wood but wood wind.


----------



## Lode_Runner

I'm sorry if this has already been asked, but does anyone know if the loyalty discount for CSS owners is likely to expire? Did the CSS owners loyalty discount on CSSS have an expiration date?


----------



## Nao Gam

Lode_Runner said:


> I'm sorry if this has already been asked, but does anyone know if the loyalty discount for CSS owners is likely to expire? Did the CSS owners loyalty discount on CSSS have an expiration date?


Never expires


----------



## Lode_Runner

Awesome, thanks Nao


----------



## SoNowWhat?

Nao Gam said:


> So let me get this straight
> Within a few months:
> Forzo
> Cinematic studio brass
> Angry brass pro
> Modern scoring brass
> Spitfire studio brass





Kony said:


> Plus JXL brass



...Plus Aaron Venture Infinite Brass.


----------



## Nmargiotta

Nao Gam said:


> https://performancesamples.com/
> There was a thread about it too


Love my Angry Bass! Those Bones! Thanks for pointing that out.


----------



## RandomComposer

Lode_Runner said:


> I'm sorry if this has already been asked, but does anyone know if the loyalty discount for CSS owners is likely to expire? Did the CSS owners loyalty discount on CSSS have an expiration date?


Unlikely, Alex just gave me a loyalty discount on the piano quite recently, just need to drop them an email when you're buying


----------



## Eptesicus

What happens (loyalty discount wise) if you live in Europe and bought it from Timespace/Bestservice?


----------



## I like music

Random question but I've forgotten if this was slated as a definite December release, or if its "in the coming months" category?


----------



## Rob Elliott

I like music said:


> Random question but I've forgotten if this was slated as a definite December release, or if its "in the coming months" category?


I thought he said in the next weeks - before the end of Dec. It's close is the impression I got.


----------



## Daniel F.

I like music said:


> Random question but I've forgotten if this was slated as a definite December release, or if its "in the coming months" category?



Yes. Like Rob said before the end of the year. If it goes well.


----------



## I like music

Daniel F. said:


> Yes. Like Rob said before the end of the year. If it goes well.



Oh yeah, turns out I missed the very first post! Thanks.


----------



## Mike Fox

She will be mine. Oh, yes. She will be mine.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

Mike Fox said:


> She will be mine. Oh, yes. She will be mine.



share?


----------



## LamaRose

The room, timbre(s), and demos are really killer. Just goes to show that one does not need 66 tubas to sound epic, lol. Would love to have a solo euphonium for choral works, especially with the lower dynamics... maybe a future expansion? Well worth the wait.


----------



## RandomComposer

I think the question mark can probably go from this title now


----------



## I like music

RandomComposer said:


> I think the question mark can probably go from this title now



Disagree! I think we should keep the tradition going even years after the library is released. And confuse people about whether it ever got released or not.

Either that or we can change the word "brass" to "woodwinds" and carry on heh...


----------



## Kony

I like music said:


> Either that or we can change the word "brass" to "woodwinds" and carry on heh...


Ahem ... there is already a "Cinematic Studio Woodwinds?" thread over here

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/cinematic-studio-woodwinds.76951/


----------



## TheSigillite

I like music said:


> Disagree! I think we should keep the tradition going even years after the library is released. And confuse people about whether it ever got released or not.
> 
> Either that or we can change the word "brass" to "woodwinds" and carry on heh...




Cinematic Studios Bump. CSB.

Am I doing this right?


----------



## desert

TheSigillite said:


> Cinematic Studios Bump. CSB.
> 
> Am I doing this right?


No, f off with the bumping


----------



## leon chevalier

TheSigillite said:


> Cinematic Studios Bump. CSB.
> 
> Am I doing this right?



Yes you did, congrats son !


----------



## ka00

I wasn’t sure if it was worth another thread, but slightly off topic. I am obsessing over the first demo track “Edge of Reality”. I want more music like that in my life. All those harmonic twists and turns. Can anyone recommend more bad ass brass heavy tracks like that?


----------



## LamaRose

ka00 said:


> I wasn’t sure if it was worth another thread, but slightly off topic. I am obsessing over the first demo track “Edge of Reality”. I want more music like that in my life. All those harmonic twists and turns. Can anyone recommend more bad ass brass heavy tracks like that?



I love this track, as well... was wondering what he used to create that great ambience in the beginning... and the airy strings vs in your face brass really hits you in the gut.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

ka00 said:


> Can anyone recommend more bad ass brass heavy tracks like that?


Maybe try: Night on Bald Mountain, Kylo Ren's Theme, The Happening End Credits


----------



## N.Caffrey

The Bump is dead. Long live the Bump!


----------



## NathanTiemeyer

It's been fun bumping this thread with you guys for the past few years. Here's to bumping threads now about CSW now!


----------



## hsindermann

It's released guys! Just got my discount code via mail and the website got an add to cart button. Which I intend to use now :D


----------



## Nicola74

I just have received my discount coupon too, but I would like to see a walkthrough before purchasing...or did I miss it?

Edit: ok, found It


----------



## N.Caffrey

Nicola74 said:


> I just have received my discount coupon too, but I would like to see a walkthrough before purchasing...or did I miss it?



There's a short one on their website. I would have preferred a more detailed one though.


----------



## Saxer

Bump... oh wait, it's already there!


----------



## rottoy

Absolutely loving the sound of the soloists!


----------



## galactic orange

It’s really here!


----------



## constaneum

rottoy said:


> Absolutely loving the sound of the soloists!




yes. indeed. the Marcato patch and repetition patch are pretty good too.


----------



## Olfirf

NoamL said:


> Regarding the brass ensemble size question
> 
> This is a really nicely written and orchestrated piece and I have nothing bad to say about the composer:
> 
> 
> 
> HOWEVER if you are a fan of symphonic soundtracks, something that sticks out here is that the 11 piece Berlin Brass (which is the normal size for JW's orchestra) is overwhelming the 28 piece Berlin Strings. BST is half the size of the string sections JW has used on many symphonic scores (60-65 players), an ensemble size which both "Hollywood" Strings and "L.A. Scoring" Strings matched deliberately.
> 
> CSS has a healthy body to the sound but it's still a studio string orchestra, 35 players (including the solos IIRC). Having much bigger brass sections would totally overmatch the orchestra. Even now, because CSB clearly has a higher dynamic range than Berlin Brass (can confidently say that just from the demos we heard), those 3 trumpets can blast across the rest of the orchestra in classic JW fashion without any need of some JW-at-the-Olympics a6 ensemble.
> 
> I too am curious about the horns though!



Are you sure about CSB having the bigger dynamic range? It certainly has the top end covered, but so far, I didn't hear anything that does the pp-mp brass choral as well. I would say, those two libraries complement each other well. One dry, the other ambient. One more for the obvious brass, the other more for the ensemble writing. Yet, there seem to be many things unique enough about both libraries. It is not an either or to me, as it seems. I have high hopes for this one to exactly cover the whole that BBr certainly has.


----------



## ridgero

I cant decide between... 

MA II, SCS Prof, CSB,

I already own Albion 1-3, MA1.


----------



## axb312

A few thoughts:
- Does the solo horn sound a little muffled to anyone else?
- Does anyone else think the new "soft dynamics" demo has too much limiting applied? Or are the soft dynamics also that loud? Can't hear a discernible soft dynamic there tbh....


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

ridgero said:


> I cant decide between...
> 
> MA II, SCS Prof, CSB,
> 
> I already own Albion 1-3, MA1.



add BHCT


----------



## Michael Stibor

It sounds great, but what's really selling me here is how consistent it is in terms of MIDI data across the instruments, and across the different libraries. For my workflow, that's going to be a game changer.


----------



## CT

mikefrommontreal said:


> It sounds great, but what's really selling me here i how consistent it is in terms of MIDI data across the instruments, and across the different libraries. For my workflow, that's going to be a game changer.



That's the one thing that keeps me coming back to Alex's stuff. If the woodwinds fit my needs, it may finally be time....


----------



## Bluemount Score

CSW now means = Cinematic Studio Wait
(as the bump is over )

instead of Woodwinds, you know... okay I'm out


----------



## jon wayne

What happened? No "Buy Now"?


----------



## Zhao Shen

The articulations demo is fantastic. They really nailed the attacks - some of those trumpet lines were really impressive.


----------



## Soprano_Sundays

axb312 said:


> A few thoughts:
> - Does the solo horn sound a little muffled to anyone else?
> - Does anyone else think the new "soft dynamics" demo has too much limiting applied? Or are the soft dynamics also that loud? Can't hear a discernible soft dynamic there tbh....



I also thought the horn sounds slightly dark. But know way to properly tell till I've tried it, I've got it downloading at the moment. Be interested to see what the trumpets sound like as most of the other brass libraries I've heard have a very 'midi brass sound' on the trumpets.


----------



## axb312

Soprano_Sundays said:


> I also thought the horn sounds slightly dark. But know way to properly tell till I've tried it, I've got it downloading at the moment. Be interested to see what the trumpets sound like as most of the other brass libraries I've heard have a very 'midi brass sound' on the trumpets.



Do let me know what you think/ hear.

Also would love to see a video or hear audio demonstrating the dynamic ranges of the instruments if anyone is up to it...

Does anyone else think the new "soft dynamics" demo has too much limiting applied? Or are the soft dynamics also that loud? Can't hear a discernible soft dynamic there tbh....


----------



## boxheadboy50

Soprano_Sundays said:


> Be interested to see what the trumpets sound like as most of the other brass libraries I've heard have a very 'midi brass sound' on the trumpets.


Also curious to know your thoughts. From the demos and walkthroughs on the website, I'm pretty close to saying that these are the best sampled trumpets I've ever heard. But I'd like to hear your opinion with the library firsthand!


----------



## JohannesR

Played it for 10 minutes before I had to leave. It’s really a fantastic library!! Dynamics are really really great. I put it side by side Berlin Brass, and when Berlin Brass is at cc1=127, CSB is at cc1=40. It’s that much of a difference.

That being said Berlin Brass is probably the worst library there is dynamic wise. It only goes from p to mf. Hollywood Brass will stand up a little better!


----------



## Consona

Consona said:


> We are nearly in 2019 so honestly, can the legato handle this line or not?


----------



## spiderfingers

JohannesR said:


> Played it for 10 minutes before I had to leave. It’s really a fantastic library!! Dynamics are really really great. I put it side by side Berlin Brass, and when Berlin Brass is at cc1=127, CSB is at cc1=40. It’s that much of a difference.
> 
> That being said Berlin Brass is probably the worst library there is dynamic wise. It only goes from p to mf. Hollywood Brass will stand up a little better!



Do you mean dynamic in the sense of timbre or volume? I currently use Century Brass as my main brass library, and while the timbre range is mostly there, I am a bit annoyed about the volume range you are forced to extend via cc11.


So now the woodwinds are finally next  I really hope this library will be able to play phrases of different note lengths (consistent attacks and proper release over different articulations) and include some auxiliary winds like alto flute, cor anglais and my beloved bass clarinet! I am not very pleased with the current options...


----------



## averystemmler

Color me excited! I've been thrilled with the consistency and sound of CSS and CSSS - legitimately the best VI purchases I've made. If the whole series maintains this level of quality, it'll form the basis of my template for a very long time.


----------



## Rob Elliott

mikefrommontreal said:


> It sounds great, but what's really selling me here is how consistent it is in terms of MIDI data across the instruments, and across the different libraries. For my workflow, that's going to be a game changer.


This IS the key for me. Really should speed up our 'orchestrating'. Thanks you Alex - you really thought of working under deadlines customers!!! I would have been happy just WITHIN CSB - but also with CSS/CSSS? Wow.


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

I found it a bit funny to see Damage and True Strike in Alex' Kontakt list. Usually devs clean that up with only their stuff. 
Anyway, I think it sounds great! Sounds like not much EQ is needed - not many unpleasant resonances, the legato is great - as expected... Yikes!


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

I think it's great. If you liked Hollywood Brass, you'll love this one. In many ways similar, but with a more elegant and luxurious sound, wonderful ambience, an even better, absolutely tight legato, and much more flexible dynamics. Speaking of dynamics - this thing goes to 11! Ride that mod wheel past ~90 for blissful fff - rarely heard in such a satisfying fashion. And then there's the wonderful, simple consistency across all the sections. Very easy to use and just works. CSB is a homerun.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

I posted that also in the Spitfire studio B. thread:

Can somebody who bought csb do me a favor and mockup 2 things:

1. Trumpet Melody opening bars from the raiders march
2. Imperial March (Tenor / bass Bones + Trumpet in octaves) main melody?

Curious how that will sound. I would appreciate that. Thank you.


----------



## Lassi Tani

DarkestShadow said:


> I found it a bit funny to see Damage and True Strike in Alex' Kontakt list. Usually devs clean that up with only their stuff.


Actually I quite like it, it shows that he's a composer, not just a developer, and doesn't need to hide what libraries he uses. If Cinematic Studio Percussion would have been released, he would certainly have that in the Kontakt library list .

I like what I'm hearing, but more demos needed.


----------



## Consona

Also, how is it possible @Alex W can compose better than a good number of a-list hollywood composers?


----------



## Consona

I think "sample borrowing" feature the 90s Retro Trumpets have would be a terrific addition. How good is the legato on its own? Honestly the only new brass library I'll buy is the one that can handle Williams/Horner fast brass lines/runs.


----------



## Pudge

CSB = Causes Strong Boner


----------



## I like music

Will have to post examples tomorrow. Didn't have time tonight to even play a note! At least I have that to wake up to...

Just wanted to comment on the quality of the music on the website. All the tracks are excellent. Alex is a damn good writer of music too...


----------



## Soprano_Sundays

First impressions are very good to me. Will try and a post an example tomorrow morning of just trumpets playing Raiders March, probably only 8 bars though.


----------



## calebfaith

In the articulation walkthrough it's almost as if the brass makes the strings sound fake because the brass sounds so great haha


----------



## JohannesR

spiderfingers said:


> Do you mean dynamic in the sense of timbre or volume? I currently use Century Brass as my main brass library, and while the timbre range is mostly there, I am a bit annoyed about the volume range you are forced to extend via cc11.


Difference in timbre of course!  But also volume. If it was JUST volume, CSB wouldn’t be that impressive.


----------



## germancomponist

Excellent! Congrats for the release, Alex!


----------



## RandomComposer

Pudge said:


> CSB = Causes Strong Boner


Hopefully the following does not happen: 
CSW = Causes Strong Wind


----------



## averystemmler

RandomComposer said:


> Hopefully the following does not happen:
> CSW = Causes Strong Wind



And let's not even discuss CSP


----------



## Jdiggity1

Somebody asked for some indiana jones demos in the Commercial Announcements thread, but i don't like posting in commercial announcement threads.
The first file uses only the shorts articulation, just to show how far you can get with it, and the variation in shorts length. Pretty fun to play!

And the second one includes sustains.

Both examples are using the default mix with no external FX or processing.
Obviously, for the best sound you'll probably want to use your own good quality reverb. I personally also like to drop out the 'main' mic and stick to a combination of room and close, for a less up-front tone.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/csb-trumpets-indianas-shorts-mp3.17002/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/csb-indianas-long-shorts-mp3.17005/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Pudge

averystemmler said:


> And let's not even discuss CSP



Causes Sore Pecker? 

It all sounds like a painfully exquisite rollercoaster!


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Jdiggity1 said:


> Somebody asked for this in the Commercial Announcements thread, but i don't like posting in commercial announcement threads.
> This uses only the shorts patch, and some built-in reverb. Pretty fun!
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/csb-trumpets-indianas-shorts-mp3.17002/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> (Sounds like the mp3 encoding adds a bit of "sizzle" that is not meant to be there, sorry)


Made some improvements to the ending I see.


----------



## Jdiggity1

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Made some improvements to the ending I see.


I didn't want to hurt his feelings, but yeah that Williams fellow could do with another lesson or two in melodic writing.


----------



## SoNowWhat?

Jdiggity1 said:


> Somebody asked for this in the Commercial Announcements thread, but i don't like posting in commercial announcement threads.
> This uses only the shorts patch, and some built-in reverb. Pretty fun!
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/csb-trumpets-indianas-shorts-mp3.17002/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> (Sounds like the mp3 encoding adds a bit of "sizzle" that is not meant to be there, sorry)


Sounds amazing even through crappy phone speaker and mp3 encoding. Incredibly “present”.


----------



## jeremiahpena

Here's my quick go at the Raiders March with a bit of added reverb from Spaces. Played it in live with just a little bit of editing to fix timing issues and add some keyswitches. It's mostly the marcato patch with some standard short notes in a few spots. First two times are the 2 Trumpets patch, second two times are 2 Trumpets+Solo Trumpet. There's also a picture to show the CC data.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/raidersmarch_csb-mp3.17003/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/raidersmarch_csb-mp3.17003/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## NoamL

Really nice @jeremiahpena and @Jdiggity1 ! Can't wait to finish downloading...


----------



## erica-grace

jeremiahpena said:


> Here's my quick go at the Raiders March



Sounds good! Would love to hear an AV brass and SSBrass version as well.


----------



## AdamKmusic

Now if people can do some Indiana Jones demos when Spitfire Studio Brass comes out we can find the true winner (and who'll get my money)


----------



## HelixK

jeremiahpena said:


> Here's my quick go at the Raiders March with a bit of added reverb from Spaces. Played it in live with just a little bit of editing to fix timing issues and add some keyswitches. It's mostly the marcato patch with some standard short notes in a few spots. First two times are the 2 Trumpets patch, second two times are 2 Trumpets+Solo Trumpet. There's also a picture to show the CC data.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/raidersmarch_csb-mp3.17003/][/AUDIOPLUS]



That's really good considering the minimal editing. Is it possible to control the length of the shorts other than the stock sfz, staccato and staccatissimo? The repetition breaks the illusion.

SM Trumpet can nail the Raiders March but you have to meticulously edit at least four CC lanes (vibrato, vib rate, dynamics and dyn to pitch) to make it work. Too much trouble... the future lies in performance driven libraries like CSB.


----------



## jeremiahpena

HelixK said:


> That's really good considering the minimal editing. Is it possible to control the length of the shorts other than the stock sfz, staccato and staccatissimo? The repetition breaks the illusion.



The marcato patch is a looped sustain (using marcato as an articulation rather than a length), with an optional stac overlay. There's 4 lengths of shorts with a good range from extremely tight to moderate Sfz, and the marcato covers any length more than that nicely. I was lazy and almost entirely used the marcato patch with the stac overlay, but if you go back through and assign different lengths to individual notes it should sound better.


----------



## HelixK

jeremiahpena said:


> The marcato patch is a looped sustain (using marcato as an articulation rather than a length), with an optional stac overlay. There's 4 lengths of shorts with a good range from extremely tight to moderate Sfz, and the marcato covers any length more than that nicely. I was lazy and almost entirely used the marcato patch with the stac overlay, but if you go back through and assign different lengths to individual notes it should sound better.



Thanks. I'm a bit slow today and still confused about how CSB works... so short lenghts are fixed (sfz, stac, stacattissimo) and you can't go any tighter or anywhere in between?

Think about the "stretch" function in Spitfire's Chamber Strings, is that possible in CSB?


----------



## Consona

jeremiahpena said:


> I was lazy and almost entirely used the marcato patch with the stac overlay, but if you go back through and assign different lengths to individual notes it should sound better.


That's actually impressive. It's nice the marcato alone can be this flexible.

Now do this trumpet line:





HelixK said:


> the future lies in performance driven libraries like CSB.


Agreed. Plus samples recorded in a hall just sound better.


----------



## Consona

HelixK said:


> Think about the "stretch" function in Spitfire's Chamber Strings, is that possible in CSB?


The stretch function is a fantastic thing, shame other developers don't have that. Plus 90s Retro auto borrowing to make legato repetitions sound so much better. Those two features are so great.


----------



## HelixK

Consona said:


> The stretch function is a fantastic thing, shame other developers don't have that. Plus 90s Retro auto borrowing to make legato repetitions sound so much better. Those two features are so great.



You got it chief  Samples are stactic by nature and the stretch function offers a lot of flexibility. I have to double check if their new studio brass library has time machine patches.

Do you own 90s Retro? Did you try to create an ensemble (I believe the original has four trumpets) and play the WoK line?


----------



## Consona

@HelixK I don't own 90s, but from the example Mike gave us in the walkthrough, it's very obvious how much changing the legato sample improves a melody line. I hope there will be people who own both libraries and can make some comparison demos and videos.


----------



## jeremiahpena

HelixK said:


> Thanks. I'm a bit slow today and still confused about how CSB works... so short lenghts are fixed (sfz, stac, stacattissimo) and you can't go any tighter or anywhere in between?
> 
> Think about the "stretch" function in Spitfire's Chamber Strings, is that possible in CSB?



There's no stretch function unfortunately. I agree it would be nice to have, but the shorts cover a range that means I probably would rarely reach for it. Here's the shorts in order (and marcatos), first single notes, then a phrase.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/csbtrumpetsshortlengths-mp3.17007/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## HelixK

jeremiahpena said:


> There's no stretch function unfortunately. I agree it would be nice to have, but the shorts cover a range that means I probably would rarely reach for it. Here's the shorts in order (and marcatos), first single notes, then a phrase.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/csbtrumpetsshortlengths-mp3.17007/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Now I get it, thanks again Jeremiah! Is the staccatissimo suppose to cut off like that?

but yeah you are right on the money... the shorts cover a lot of range but I still like to add random variations (my ears are very picky about short notes). Spitfire hit a home run with the stretch function.


----------



## jeremiahpena

HelixK said:


> Now I get it, thanks again Jeremiah! Is the staccatissimo suppose to cut off like that?



That's the repetition articulation, which is shorter than staccatissimo. I think they were probably sampled in phrases for realism, so the tails cut off, but when you use them in context with the other shorts (it usually sounds best to end a phrase with a longer note), and in a mix with reverb it's unnoticeable.


----------



## lucor

Can somebody who also owns CSS and has good orchestrational knowledge see what they think about the balance between CSS and CSB? How accurate do you think it is?
With both at the same volume settings and using the mixed mic position, I feel like the brass is a _tiny_ bit too loud when you just play them at the same time (especially Tuba vs Basses). But that could also be due to CSS's relatively small section sizes?

Besides that I LOVE it. It met all my expectations I had for the library, and I don't think they could have been much higher.


----------



## HelixK

jeremiahpena said:


> That's the repetition articulation, which is shorter than staccatissimo. I think they were probably sampled in phrases for realism, so the tails cut off, but when you use them in context with the other shorts (it usually sounds best to end a phrase with a longer note), and in a mix with reverb it's unnoticeable.



Oh that's clever! I assumed the repetitions were longer phrases and I didn't think you could play them as single shot notes... really really cool


----------



## Batrawi

In CSB GUI I only see one legato script(standard?) as opposed to Standard+Advanced in CSS/S...so what exactly happened to the legato, can anybody explain?


----------



## NoamL

lucor said:


> Can somebody who also owns CSS and has good orchestrational knowledge see what they think about the balance between CSS and CSB? How accurate do you think it is?
> With both at the same volume settings and using the mixed mic position, I feel like the brass is a _tiny_ bit too loud when you just play them at the same time (especially Tuba vs Basses). But that could also be due to CSS's relatively small section sizes?
> 
> Besides that I LOVE it. It met all my expectations I had for the library, and I don't think they could have been much higher.



*EDIT:* I was wrong, see below! You're right, there does seem to be a volume issue here..

What Alex said in his walkthrough about lowering the master volume is worth keeping in mind. It is easy to hit the red on Kontakt's output or even the master bus when you have the entire brass section playing ff.

In my template I have CSS outputting a custom mix that is about -8dB overall compared to the out of the box sound. Doing something similar with the brass will probably be a good safety step.


----------



## HelixK

lucor said:


> With both at the same volume settings and using the mixed mic position, I feel like the brass is a _tiny_ bit too loud when you just play them at the same time (especially Tuba vs Basses). But that could also be due to CSS's relatively small section sizes?



In the intro video Alex suggests to increase the headroom by turning down the volume in Kontakt. Maybe that helps? I thought CSB and CSS were meant to work together without any additional balancing.


----------



## gpax

lucor said:


> Can somebody who also owns CSS and has good orchestrational knowledge see what they think about the balance between CSS and CSB? How accurate do you think it is?
> With both at the same volume settings and using the mixed mic position, I feel like the brass is a _tiny_ bit too loud when you just play them at the same time (especially Tuba vs Basses). But that could also be due to CSS's relatively small section sizes?
> 
> Besides that I LOVE it. It met all my expectations I had for the library, and I don't think they could have been much higher.


FWIW, there is a tip in Alex’s CSB intro video to set Kontakt’s master volume lower, to allow a more headroom for the brass.


----------



## NoamL

HelixK said:


> In the intro video Alex suggests to increase the headroom by turning down the volume in Kontakt. Maybe that helps? I thought CSB and CSS were meant to work together without any additional balancing.



The idea is you would do the same to all CS series libraries, I think.


----------



## Jdiggity1

Did anybody else have dejavu just now?


----------



## NoamL

You know, tinkering with it, the out of the box mix balance between both libraries actually seems quite off to me. But when you switch the brass to the room mics and keep the strings with the mix mic, it's much better. This is the Cellos and Horns-a4 obeying the same MIDI data, with the Horns only loading the room mic:

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/hornncellos-mp3.17009/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## NoamL

For comparison here is the full mix of both libraries loaded.

Unless there's something wrong with my install?

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/hornncellosfullmix-mp3.17010/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## NoamL

I also ran into this rather odd graphical bug when loading both libraries in the same Kontakt instance. It had no effect on the sound, but it might presage other bugs under the hood so I sent it off to Alex.


----------



## NYC Composer

Jdiggity1 said:


> Did anybody else have dejavu just now?


I once had deja moo, but I was cowed by it.


----------



## Jdiggity1

NYC Composer said:


> I once had deja moo, but I was cowed by it.


----------



## HelixK

NoamL said:


> You know, tinkering with it, the out of the box mix balance between both libraries actually seems quite off to me. But when you switch the brass to the room mics and keep the strings with the mix mic, it's much better. This is the Cellos and Horns-a4 obeying the same MIDI data, with the Horns only loading the room mic:
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/hornncellos-mp3.17009/][/AUDIOPLUS]



That's a lot more balanced compared to the full mix on both libraries.

Your second example (full mix on both) may sound off but it's what I'd expect from a real life 4-3-3-1 brass section over a 35 piece string orch... there's no way the strings could stand a chance lol

When Alex said CSS and CSB would work together, I wasn't thinking about the playability aspect alone, I also assumed he was going to provide a mix to go along with CSS out of the box. At least, as you showed on your first example, it should be a quick fix...


----------



## NoamL

Wow, maybe not even just the room mics. Here's a combo with Horns a4 playing unison with the Violas, with both Violin sections doubling an octave above. A pretty common orchestration combination for JW and other 90s film scores.

I find that my orchestration-sense is about satisfied when the horns have *ONLY the room mics *loaded AND subtracting *a further -6dB* gain; the strings are out of the box. What do you think? Horns too loud/quiet?


[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/histringcombo-mp3.17013/][/AUDIOPLUS]

By comparison, with CSB out of the box, the brass is overwhelming (the reason the violins feel quieter instead of the brass louder is because all of these examples are normalized):

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/histringcombo_ootb-mp3.17014/][/AUDIOPLUS]

Here's a version with CSB using the mix-mic out of the box, but with the output lowered by -12dB. I think this achieves _roughly_ the correct balance, but it almost sounds to me like the horns are sitting amongst the violins. I like the first version (room mics only) much better, as it feels like the horns are pushed back. What do you think?

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/histringcombo_ootbbutminustwelve-mp3.17015/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## NoamL

You know, before going to sleep (and knowing that all of these issues are easily fixable) it's worth appreciating how amazingly EASY it is to just load up some sections of CSS and CSB in the same Kontakt instance and just _play_ them. And it works; they certainly are playing in time together, and _most_ if not all the time, the dynamics are how you'd want them... this volume issue is only going to take me a day or two to figure out values that satisfy me, and after that, the workflow's gonna be so easy. Thank you CS Series


----------



## lucor

First impression: for me the Celli with the mixed mics + Horns with just room mics at -3db feels pretty good. At -6db I feel the horns are a tad too quiet.
However with Horns at -3db the Violins seem kind of loud? Maybe Violins vs. Celli are also a bit unbalanced? Need to investigate further. 
And yeah I have to agree this is SO MUCH FUN. The consistency is amazing and everything just works. CSB and CSS will be the backbone of my template for a long long time, and I'll try to match all my other libraries to them as good as possible.


----------



## lucor

Btw @AlexanderSchiborr here's a very quick pass at the Imperial March, since noone has done it yet. This is just using the Marcato patch. I played it in on the 2 Trombones patch and just copied it over to the Bass Trombone, 2 Trumpets and Solo Trumpet patch with no further editing, so there should still be lots of room for improvement. 

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/imperial-march-csb-mp3.17017/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## BlueStar

I don't want to interrupt the sound discussion.

Just a little hint for composers from Europe with VAT-ID. If you are planning to order CSB it might be a good idea to pay with credit card. With this payment method FastSpring payment offers to enter your ID. Paypal payment just adds VAT (without giving this option).

Ok... let's go on with the more musical thoughts then...


----------



## Wibben

BlueStar said:


> I don't want to interrupt the sound discussion.
> 
> Just a little hint for composers from Europe with VAT-ID. If you are planning to order CSB it might be a good idea to pay with credit card. With this payment method FastSpring payment offers to enter your ID. Paypal payment just adds VAT (without giving this option).
> 
> Ok... let's go on with the more musical thoughts then...



I used PayPal and the option to type in your VAT ID comes after you leave the PayPal interface and return to approve the order, which is odd..


----------



## packetslave

hmm, CSB or Sample Modeling Brass... decisions, decisions


----------



## Raphioli

Thx for Indy and SW demos. Really impressed with the dynamic range and the overall sound.


----------



## Simon Ravn

WOW, just WOW! Just played with this for 5 minutes and I can't say how impressed I am with it. The consistency, the programming, the warm, yet forceful sound of the horns and trombones (all I tried yet). Congrats to Alex, this is quite a feat and I am sure it was a gigantic job to get this done so well! 

Implementing this into my template right away, this is gonna be good!


----------



## baileysounds

Brilliant Library. All of the stars.




Quick note: The Trills articulation does nothing unless you are hitting two notes simultaneously, and it will work with combinations of notes up to a whole step up or down. Which makes sense because it's a trill. e.g if you hit just D3 on your midi controller/program in a single note = nothing, you need to also hit C3, C#3, D#3 or E3 so it knows what trill sample to play. I didn't have Cinematic Studio Strings or rtfm so this may have been blindingly obvious to some, but it took me a minute or two to figure out. D'oh


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

lucor said:


> Btw @AlexanderSchiborr here's a very quick pass at the Imperial March, since noone has done it yet. This is just using the Marcato patch. I played it in on the 2 Trombones patch and just copied it over to the Bass Trombone, 2 Trumpets and Solo Trumpet patch with no further editing, so there should still be lots of room for improvement.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/imperial-march-csb-mp3.17017/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Thank you for sharing, Yeah the tone is really nice, but the "performance"...hmm...:D, especially those shorter transitions..doesn´t work at all for me. Can you maybe massage it a bit more? Is there room for improving that? Great tone definitely.


----------



## al_net77

I bought CSS from BS, do you know how can I get the loyalty discount from CS site? BS does not have CSB in catalogue.


----------



## Adam Takacs

al_net77 said:


> I bought CSS from BS, do you know how can I get the loyalty discount from CS site? BS does not have CSB in catalogue.



Just send an email to Alex. Nevertheless, I think it's coming soon to BS as well.


----------



## I like music

al_net77 said:


> I bought CSS from BS, do you know how can I get the loyalty discount from CS site? BS does not have CSB in catalogue.


Probably best to go to the cinematicstudioseries website and hit the support button. Allowing for time difference (Australia) Alex gets back pretty quickly!


----------



## al_net77

Thanks


----------



## I like music

NoamL said:


> Wow, maybe not even just the room mics. Here's a combo with Horns a4 playing unison with the Violas, with both Violin sections doubling an octave above. A pretty common orchestration combination for JW and other 90s film scores.
> 
> I find that my orchestration-sense is about satisfied when the horns have *ONLY the room mics *loaded AND subtracting *a further -6dB* gain; the strings are out of the box. What do you think? Horns too loud/quiet?
> 
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/histringcombo-mp3.17013/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> By comparison, with CSB out of the box, the brass is overwhelming (the reason the violins feel quieter instead of the brass louder is because all of these examples are normalized):
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/histringcombo_ootb-mp3.17014/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> Here's a version with CSB using the mix-mic out of the box, but with the output lowered by -12dB. I think this achieves _roughly_ the correct balance, but it almost sounds to me like the horns are sitting amongst the violins. I like the first version (room mics only) much better, as it feels like the horns are pushed back. What do you think?
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/histringcombo_ootbbutminustwelve-mp3.17015/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Would it be fair to assume that this applies roughly the same to trumpets and to trombones? I won't get to play with it until later, and given that my internal sense of an orchestra is pretty bad, I might have to rely on others here to help guide.


----------



## Soprano_Sundays

Here is a small clip of Raiders March I did quickly this morning. Only had time to do a few bars.

This is just out of the box with reverb.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/raiders-march-trumpets-mp3.17020/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Grizzlymv

All the quick tasters sounds really great so far. For those who have it already, how much of the brass content from a track like the Manor House Rally track from Medal of Honor (Michael Giacchino) would be achievable?


----------



## I like music

I can't see where I would go and do the old transposition trick? I don't see that wrench icon that was in a few walkthroughs for people transposing the instrument up or down


----------



## eli0s

I like music said:


> I can't see where I would go and do the old transposition trick? I don't see that wrench icon that was in a few walkthroughs for people transposing the instrument up or down


I don't think you can do it this way. Use the Tune knob to pitch up or down and transpose the midi track in the opposite way (if you tune +1 semitone, transpose the midi notes -semitone). Have in mind that you cave to compensate for any keyshitch information if you transpose the midi track globally!


----------



## I like music

eli0s said:


> I don't think you can do it this way. Use the Tune knob to pitch up or down and transpose the midi track in the opposite way (if you tune +1 semitone, transpose the midi notes -semitone). Have in mind that you cave to compensate for any keyshitch information if you transpose the midi track globally!



Ahhhhhhh! I see. OK, so I can do the first part (in Kontakt) if I save it as a separate instrument.

I've never transposed the piano/midi roll before. I'm in Cubase. I'm sure its just a case of spending a bit of time finding where the transposition option sites for the roll. I'm guessing you can transpose the piano roll just for one track, right? Otherwise the whole thing falls apart.


----------



## Gerbil

I have lots of ensemble brass already but I'm really interested in the solo brass as I'd like more options here. The SF studio brass solos in Air 1 sound very appealing to my ears but I wouldn't want to grab those without hearing a walkthrough of what CSB offers.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

What's the word on the CSB legato delay? From the lack of comments so far, maybe it's not that noticeable?


----------



## bnz

Just fiddled around a little with the solo bass trombone and solo trombone and tried a few staffs from Ce qu'on entend sur la montagne (disregarding some of the original dynamics). Is it just me or is pianissimo a little noisy? I'm not at home and have only some $20 speakers available, so I'm not exactly sure what I hear 

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/lizst-andante-religioso_1-mp3.17026/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## rottoy

bnz said:


> Just fiddled around a little with the solo bass trombone and solo trombone and tried a few staffs from Ce qu'on entend sur la montagne (disregarding some of the original dynamics). Is it just me or is pianissimo a little noisy? I'm not at home and have only some $20 speakers available, so I'm not exactly sure what I hear
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/lizst-andante-religioso_1-mp3.17026/][/AUDIOPLUS]


Sounds fine to me. You always have to treat the noise in the Cinematic Studio series a bit.


----------



## Go To 11

I think I can hear a tiny bit of that crackle you're talking about. Nothing that spoils it though for me. Lovely piece and thanks for sharing the lower dynamics with us!


----------



## MartinH.

I hear something weird at 0:12, but it wouldn't be a dealbreaker for me.


----------



## N.Caffrey

bnz said:


> Just fiddled around a little with the solo bass trombone and solo trombone and tried a few staffs from Ce qu'on entend sur la montagne (disregarding some of the original dynamics). Is it just me or is pianissimo a little noisy? I'm not at home and have only some $20 speakers available, so I'm not exactly sure what I hear
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/lizst-andante-religioso_1-mp3.17026/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Try using Close and Room mics. I think that would help a little. Also CSSS has the same "feature".


----------



## Esther Gagné

Hi all! This new library sounds very good so far. I like the Cinematic Studio Series' esthetic, I often feel like I'm listening to those late 70's, early 80's Anvil Denham recordings. A warm, yet crisp analog sound. Listening to your examples is quite useful! I was just wondering about one thing : is there a possibility for vibrato somewhere in there?


----------



## SoundChris

packetslave said:


> hmm, CSB or Sample Modeling Brass... decisions, decisions


I would go for both because they cant be compared IMO. The human element in the Sample Modeling Brass is unmatched and for genres like jazz etc. I dont think there even could be a better choice. Also the Samplemodeling Brass works very well in combination with Hollywood Brass and Cinebrass to add more realism and details. The downside is that you have to tweak the sound to make it sit well in the mix (especially the Trumpets) and to get great overall results. Also sometimes for epic stuff it doesnt feel aggressive enough for my taste, especially the Horns. On the other side the SM Horns work very well for soft and mellow lines IMO. CSB has a very nice tone and is quite dry recorded so it can cut better through dense orchestral mixes. It works very well out of the box, too. So even I already have got Hollywood Diamond, Cinebrass Complete, all Samplemodeling Brass and the Albion I Brass I am happy to also hav got CSB now, too. Easy to use, not much editing needed and a lot of articulations. I can recommend it (and also Samplemodeling Brass)!


----------



## Andrew0568

For those of you who have picked it up—how does it compare to Cinebrass? I recently got Cinebrass but the CSB samples sound amazing!


----------



## eli0s

I like music said:


> Ahhhhhhh! I see. OK, so I can do the first part (in Kontakt) if I save it as a separate instrument.
> 
> I've never transposed the piano/midi roll before. I'm in Cubase. I'm sure its just a case of spending a bit of time finding where the transposition option sites for the roll. I'm guessing you can transpose the piano roll just for one track, right? Otherwise the whole thing falls apart.


I don't think you have to save as a separate instrument, unless you want to load an instance of the said instrument already tuned. But it is so easy and fast to do it anyway.
I don't know Cubase but I'm sure it can transpose
You can simply select all the musical notes in piano roll and move them up/down.
Or you can transpose the whole midi track by a fixed amount, but I don't know how to do it in Cubase...


----------



## eli0s

Land of Missing Parts said:


> What's the word on the CSB legato delay? From the lack of comments so far, maybe it's not that noticeable?


There is a delay between 60ms (for the short articulations) and 230ms (for the medium legato speed in the slow handling instruments like the trombones). From the manual:
"...
Medium has the most delay, (approx. 230ms for trombones, horns and tuba, 180ms
for trumpets), while fast has a smaller delay - approximately 100ms. However, the
amount of delay varies with each instrument, and we did this on purpose in order to
better accommodate the way the instrument itself functions. For example, the
trombone can’t move from one note to the next as quickly as a trumpet, and so this is
reflected in the feel of the legato..."


----------



## brek

eli0s said:


> I don't think you have to save as a separate instrument, unless you want to load an instance of the said instrument already tuned. But it is so easy and fast to do it anyway.
> I don't know Cubase but I'm sure it can transpose
> You can simply select all the musical notes in piano roll and move them up/down.
> Or you can transpose the whole midi track by a fixed amount, but I don't know how to do it in Cubase...



Insert the the MIDI modifier plugin on the track you want to transpose.


----------



## averystemmler

My impression after a few hours of poking at it is overwhelmingly positive. The different legato speeds will require a few new versions of the note offset scripts I use for CSS/CSSS (and maybe a piece of paper reminding me which instruments require which delays), but it's well worth it.

Alex was most definitely not joking about the levels though. Brass is loud, it turns out.


----------



## Scamper

So CSB can certainly go loud, but how about the low dynamics?
Can anybody comment how quiet the instruments can go or even provide some more audio examples of the lowest dynamics? That would be fantastic.

Also, how can you compare it to libraries like CineBrass, Spitfire Symphonic Brass or Berlin Brass?
Regarding the quiet dynamics, I'd hope it will be better than CineBrass, but I have the impression SSB and BB still have the advantage there.


----------



## axb312

Scamper said:


> So CSB can certainly go loud, but how about the low dynamics?
> Can anybody comment how quiet the instruments can go or even provide some more audio examples of the lowest dynamics? That would be fantastic.
> 
> Also, how can you compare it to libraries like CineBrass, Spitfire Symphonic Brass or Berlin Brass?
> Regarding the quiet dynamics, I'd hope it will be better than CineBrass, but I have the impression SSB and BB still have the advantage there.



Quite a few audio examples posted already. Just a few posts above yours, there's one that tackles lower dynamics. Probably some more scattered in the last few pages.

FYI I think they sound great (don't own CSB yet).


----------



## jeremiahpena

Scamper said:


> So CSB can certainly go loud, but how about the low dynamics?
> Can anybody comment how quiet the instruments can go or even provide some more audio examples of the lowest dynamics? That would be fantastic.
> 
> Also, how can you compare it to libraries like CineBrass, Spitfire Symphonic Brass or Berlin Brass?
> Regarding the quiet dynamics, I'd hope it will be better than CineBrass, but I have the impression SSB and BB still have the advantage there.



I've been going back and forth comparing it with Hollywood Brass and Berlin Brass. The low dynamics are quite musical, definitely softer than Hollywood Brass and about equal to Berlin Brass. However, the advantage of the huge dynamic range is also a bit of a problem here, in that there's not much room on the mod wheel for the low dynamics. You have to be pretty careful with how you use the mod wheel to not stray into loud territory.

Berlin Brass's smaller range and individual players sounds better to me for soft, warm chorale writing. But in every other aspect I think CSB is far better. There wasn't a single thing in Hollywood Brass that I thought sounded as good as the equivalent in CSB (Even the famed 6 horns legato in HWB doesn't hold up to CSB's 4 horns IMO).

Edit: Berlin Brass (And Metropolis Ark) also have an overall "clumsiness" to them which I think comes from the bigger room sound. I don't have SSB, but almost all of the Spitfire libraries I've used (including SSW) have a similar clumsiness. In comparison, CSB is quite agile.


----------



## NoamL

I think the following will demonstrate why after just 1 day of playing around with it, I'm so much more delighted with CSB than Berlin.

First, the dynamic range of Berlin's solo horn:

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/berlinsolo-mp3.17034/][/AUDIOPLUS]

That's the entire modwheel, and when you play at the top, believe it or not the little dial in the middle says you're playing *ff*.

Now if you _don't_ believe that, you are correct, because here is CSB's solo horn:

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/csbsolo-mp3.17035/][/AUDIOPLUS]

Berlin goes _a little_ lower in dynamics than CSB, and I'll probably still reach for it first for true pianissimo passages. But for anything that crosses over between mp-f, much less ff.... 

[AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/berlinsolo-mp3.17034/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/csbsolo-mp3.17035/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## NoamL

Here's one more example. Berlin Trumpets vs CSB trumpets. First the same dynamic so you can see they're matched, then Berlin's lowest dynamic level vs CSB, then Berlin's highest dynamic level vs CSB (in reality the lead trumpet should have a bit more oomph than Trumpet 2/3 but I just mocked this up super quickly).

To me, the extra dynamic range & musicality of CSB more than makes up for the realism of 3 individually sampled trumpets.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/berlinvscsbtrumpets-mp3.17036/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Scamper

axb312 said:


> Quite a few audio examples posted already. Just a few posts above yours, there's one that tackles lower dynamics.


I listened to them all, but the demo from @bnz was the first to cover the low dynamics, which I have to assume was the low limit. It was still only bass trombone and trombone, so it would be nice to have some more examples.



jeremiahpena said:


> However, the advantage of the huge dynamic range is also a bit of a problem here, in that there's not much room on the mod wheel for the low dynamics. You have to be pretty careful with how you use the mod wheel to not stray into loud territory.


That is pretty much my only worry with the library. From @NoamL's Demo, seems like it covers a reasonably quiet piano, but the room between mp and f seems relatively small. If there would be a little more room at the bottom, it would be perfect, I think. 

Please correct me, if I'm wrong, but the dynamics for the libraries seems like the following to me (I only own CineBrass):
CineBrass Core : (mp)mf - f
Berlin Brass: pp - mf
Spitfire S.Brass: pp - ff (depends on the instrument?)
Cinematic Studio Brass: p-ff

Anyways, hearing about the much better consistency and playability of CSB to something like SSB, it seems like the most solid deal.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

CSB sounds amazing.
Dear @NoamL can you please stop comparing it with my beloved Berlin Brass ? You're hurting my feelings !


----------



## NoamL

Hahaha! I still think Berlin sounds VERY nice for chorale writing as @jeremiahpena said.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

I've been trying to gauge how close I can get to the Low Brass Hymnium patch in Berlin Inspire 2:


Granted, this isn't a fair comparison, as the above patch is made up of tubas and euphonium.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

NoamL said:


> I think the following will demonstrate why after just 1 day of playing around with it, I'm so much more delighted with CSB than Berlin.
> 
> First, the dynamic range of Berlin's solo horn:
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/berlinsolo-mp3.17034/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> That's the entire modwheel, and when you play at the top, believe it or not the little dial in the middle says you're playing *ff*.
> 
> Now if you _don't_ believe that, you are correct, because here is CSB's solo horn:
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/csbsolo-mp3.17035/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> Berlin goes _a little_ lower in dynamics than CSB, and I'll probably still reach for it first for true pianissimo passages. But for anything that crosses over between mp-f, much less ff....
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/berlinsolo-mp3.17034/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/csbsolo-mp3.17035/][/AUDIOPLUS]



That horn comparison was good. CSB solo Horn sounds really nice here.


----------



## Nils Neumann

What about 4 part writing with the solo horn patch? Anyone examples?


----------



## Gerbil

Thanks for the examples. It's very interesting. I actually prefer the Berlin horn and trumpet in the quieter examples. It's a richer, mellower sound in the lower dynamics. CSB is a little thinner and brighter to my ears. But the dynamic range is far superior in the latter which make for a much more consistent performance in a dynamically charged piece.


----------



## Consona

Anybody willing to mock-up some Horner's Star Trek brass passages? 

Midi

Bar 25 and 56-61?


----------



## JohannesR

NoamL said:


> Hahaha! I still think Berlin sounds VERY nice for chorale writing as @jeremiahpena said.


Haha, that's pretty much how I view Berlin Brass now. A soft chorale writing library.


----------



## PerryD

packetslave said:


> hmm, CSB or Sample Modeling Brass... decisions, decisions


 I am looking forward to both! Nuance of SM solo brass mixed with CSB should be very cool. CSB after Christmas for me.


----------



## Soundlex

NoamL said:


> Here's one more example. Berlin Trumpets vs CSB trumpets. First the same dynamic so you can see they're matched, then Berlin's lowest dynamic level vs CSB, then Berlin's highest dynamic level vs CSB (in reality the lead trumpet should have a bit more oomph than Trumpet 2/3 but I just mocked this up super quickly).
> 
> To me, the extra dynamic range & musicality of CSB more than makes up for the realism of 3 individually sampled trumpets.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/berlinvscsbtrumpets-mp3.17036/][/AUDIOPLUS]


The Lost Ark sound really good on CSB!! Jeez...


----------



## bnz

One more little more fun test from Mahler's 5th. I wasn't able to get clean transitions between the staccatissimo and legato key switches, thus I had to trick a little by staying in the staccato key switch. But not all too bad I think.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/mahler5_1-mp3.17039/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## spiderfingers

What about attacks of sustain notes? Are there slow and fast attacks depending on the velocity? This is something I am missing a little bit on Century Brass...


----------



## alfred tapscott

just bought it and can only say...WOW!. Finally might get rid of Hollywood brass (and no other library till now made me think of that yet)

Just one stupid thing...why is the bass trombone transposed an octave comparing to the tenor bones??


----------



## tack

spiderfingers said:


> What about attacks of sustain notes? Are there slow and fast attacks depending on the velocity?


Unfortunately no. Although this exists with CSS, it's not in CSB.


----------



## sourcefor

Yeah Its either this or Spitfire Studio Brass...


----------



## eli0s

spiderfingers said:


> What about attacks of sustain notes? Are there slow and fast attacks depending on the velocity


Attack (on sustained articulations) is dependent on CC1 / dynamic level.


----------



## Vischebaste

I'm tempted by this, but it feels like an extravagance given a relatively recent outlay on Berlin Brass. Am I correct in thinking that Orchestral Tools don't allow reselling of their libraries?


----------



## LamaRose

NoamL said:


> Wow, maybe not even just the room mics. Here's a combo with Horns a4 playing unison with the Violas, with both Violin sections doubling an octave above. A pretty common orchestration combination for JW and other 90s film scores.
> 
> I find that my orchestration-sense is about satisfied when the horns have *ONLY the room mics *loaded AND subtracting *a further -6dB* gain; the strings are out of the box. What do you think? Horns too loud/quiet?
> 
> Here's a version with CSB using the mix-mic out of the box, but with the output lowered by -12dB. I think this achieves _roughly_ the correct balance, but it almost sounds to me like the horns are sitting amongst the violins. I like the first version (room mics only) much better, as it feels like the horns are pushed back. What do you think?



Strings? I don't need no stinking strings!


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Vischebaste said:


> Am I correct in thinking that Orchestral Tools don't allow reselling of their libraries?


Correct, they do not. You can reference the resale lists here and here.


----------



## madfloyd

Vischebaste said:


> I'm tempted by this, but it feels like an extravagance given a relatively recent outlay on Berlin Brass. Am I correct in thinking that Orchestral Tools don't allow reselling of their libraries?



I'm the same boat. Felt like I had to take advantage of the BF sale to get Berlin Strings... and then read that I could use my $100 coupon if I bought that + Berlin Brass together so I did. I hate myself now, especially since I knew that between OT's capsule and the library itself, Brass would probably never really be used... heck I haven't even downloaded it. I want THIS library much more.


----------



## galactic orange

madfloyd said:


> I'm the same boat. Felt like I had to take advantage of the BF sale to get Berlin Strings... and then read that I could use my $100 coupon if I bought that + Berlin Brass together so I did. I hate myself now, especially since I knew that between OT's capsule and the library itself, Brass would probably never really be used... heck I haven't even downloaded it. I want THIS library much more.


I really feel for you. Despite knowing CSB was on the horizon, I also bought Berlin Brass to use the coupon with Berlin Percussion. The lack of updates and the limited expressive range were concerns. I couldn’t afford BB until this deal + coupon so I jumped. After hearing the posted comparisons, there are still some things I like better about the sound. But the extra range of CSB can’t be denied. If OT came out with a Berlin Brass Revive (but free) sort of update with more expressive range and some balance tweaks I would be all over that. But as it stands, once CSB is in my template I’ll rarely look back.


----------



## Michael Stibor

Gerbil said:


> Thanks for the examples. It's very interesting. I actually prefer the Berlin horn and trumpet in the quieter examples. It's a richer, mellower sound in the lower dynamics. CSB is a little thinner and brighter to my ears. But the dynamic range is far superior in the latter which make for a much more consistent performance in a dynamically charged piece.


That's interesting that you hear it that way. I agree that the Berlin Brass sounds mellower, but to my ears it also sounds a little flatter and less realistic. As a result I hear CSB as having the richer tone, regardless of the dynamics question.


----------



## galactic orange

Would someone be willing to share the RAM used with all instruments loaded? I know this will vary based on Kontakt buffer settings, but a ballpark figure would be helpful.

And if you have CSS and CSSS, how much RAM with all of these loaded together?


----------



## TheSigillite

Here is my template for Cinematic Studios so far.

With all samples purged I sit at 5.2 GB of RAM usage from Reaper





Reloading all CSB samples I sit now at 10GB RAM usage (it loads at about 4.5 GB)





Reloading all CSS and CSS samples (from the tracks you see below) I'm at 18.2 GB of RAM Usage





And finally loading Mr CS Piano and FX It brings me to a total of 18.44 GB of RAM usage using Reaper. Keep in mind this is





Windows 10 sits at 22GB of RAM usage with reaper and CSS, CSSS, CSB, and CSP. Hope this helps. I'm running with 32 GB of Total RAM for now. (going to 64 by end of year.) This is with a 60.0 kb buffer size. ( i had to increase at the time since Cinebrass was cutting off samples and I was getting DFD errors.) I think it's time to revisit that 6kb size again),


----------



## The Darris

galactic orange said:


> Would someone be willing to share the RAM used with all instruments loaded? I know this will vary based on Kontakt buffer settings, but a ballpark figure would be helpful.
> 
> And if you have CSS and CSSS, how much RAM with all of these loaded together?


This will depend on where you have your "preload buffer" size set. If you have it at low as it goes, most patches in CSS and CSSS sit around 700-800 mb with all three mics load. If you have the highest preload buffer size, those patches sit more around 5-6 gb each while the default preload buffer size (60 kb) has those patches sitting around 2.3 gb each. So, just know that you have some flexibility. If you are working off of fast SSD's, you can set the preload buffer really low to save on loaded RAM and not have issues with playback, unless you are trigger a lot of instruments playing a lot of notes. 

I have mine set to the lowest, 6kb, and haven't had major issues and I layer 3-4 libraries together per section. But, yeah, to answer your question, it will vary from user to user since we all set that preload buffer size differently. 

Best,

Chris


----------



## tokatila

Just got the word from Best Service that developer has decided sell CSB exclusively from their own site, at least for first few months.


----------



## TheSigillite

The Darris said:


> This will depend on where you have your "preload buffer" size set. If you have it at low as it goes, most patches in CSS and CSSS sit around 700-800 mb with all three mics load. If you have the highest preload buffer size, those patches sit more around 5-6 gb each while the default preload buffer size (60 kb) has those patches sitting around 2.3 gb each. So, just know that you have some flexibility. If you are working off of fast SSD's, you can set the preload buffer really low to save on loaded RAM and not have issues with playback, unless you are trigger a lot of instruments playing a lot of notes.
> 
> I have mine set to the lowest, 6kb, and haven't had major issues and I layer 3-4 libraries together per section. But, yeah, to answer your question, it will vary from user to user since we all set that preload buffer size differently.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Chris



Looks like setting the buffer size to 6kb and loading all mics for CSB i'm at 13.04 GB


----------



## jamwerks

People are loading all the mic's? Is the mixed mic not of liking?

In Kontakt, 6 kb is a pretty normal setting (providing you're reading from an SSD).


----------



## MarcusD

How do the shorts sound? Are they big and ballsy?


----------



## galactic orange

TheSigillite said:


> Looks like setting the buffer size to 6kb and loading all mics for CSB i'm at 13.04 GB


Not bad for all mics I guess. (I’m assuming you exclude the Mix mic from that).


----------



## galactic orange

TheSigillite said:


> Here is my template for Cinematic Studios so far.
> 
> With all samples purged I sit at 5.2 GB of RAM usage from Reaper
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reloading all CSB samples I sit now at 10GB RAM usage (it loads at about 4.5 GB)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reloading all CSS and CSS samples (from the tracks you see below) I'm at 18.2 GB of RAM Usage
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And finally loading Mr CS Piano and FX It brings me to a total of 18.44 GB of RAM usage using Reaper. Keep in mind this is
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Windows 10 sits at 22GB of RAM usage with reaper and CSS, CSSS, CSB, and CSP. Hope this helps. I'm running with 32 GB of Total RAM for now. (going to 64 by end of year.) This is with a 60.0 kb buffer size. ( i had to increase at the time since Cinebrass was cutting off samples and I was getting DFD errors.) I think it's time to revisit that 6kb size again),


I’m using 32GB too hence the request. You’ve gone above and beyond with that detailed description and I appreciate your help very much. It looks like an orchestral template with CSB and CSS plus the other sections is feasible. I wasn’t sure though, was that with Mix mics only?


----------



## JohnBMears

From the first night with it, here is my takeaway:

_PATCHES

It seems (to my ears) if certain patches of HWB have been more carefully edited with consistent shorts and very good legato. It has that type of brightness and clarity to my ears. It also then has more of the room sound that CineBrass is appreciated for.

Trumpets, extremely clear- rivals the CineBrass core tpt ensemble (which is currently my go-to)

Horns, these will replace most of my need for HWB horns and ALL of my need of CineBrass core horns.

Bones, for my orchestration purposes- the need of chortal trombone accompaniment still makes Berlin Brass my tops. 3 individual players (fairly consistently programmed) is a huge step beyond using a solo patch thrice. BUT I haven't tried the transposition trick yet to 'make' three bones.

Tuba, all good- a bit reserved in 'stout' in my opinion, but it will fit the bill great.

_MICROPHONES

One thing that we disappointing about Berlin Brass to me was that TELDEX 'wetness' makes the non-directional brass instruments (Horns & Tuba) require extra mics. This can not only hog RAM, but I have never found a great recipe for mixing Berlin Series microphones. So many options so much RAM.

When I load the old SOLO HORN from CineBrass core, the mix mic gives it room and clarity in a limited ram footprint and I am happy to say that CSB horns maintain a clear focus thanks to the mix mic (but also sound great with room and close only)

If CSB dedicated a *little* more modwheel to the lower dynamics and actually sampled all the individual players that Berlin Brass did, it would have a batting average in the record books!

_REVERB

After writing a number of tracks using the ARKS (and then re-mixing them with more emphasis on close mics) my ears have leaned back towards wanting a space a bit drier than Teldex. Trackdown scoring stage sounds great for brass, I'd liken it to Sony/CineSamples room tone without longer tails.

I always heard CSS as a smaller, more detailed and better programmed HWS and CSB to me does the same for HWB.

I plan on posting a new track that uses it this weekend!


----------



## jamwerks

I'd love for Alex to do an extension to CSB with:

-Horn Solo 2
-Horns a2 
-Trumpet in E-flat
-Trumpet Solo 2 (in C or B-flat, different from 1)
-Trombone (tenor) Solo 2
-Contrebase Trombone 
-Euphonium


----------



## WindcryMusic

jamwerks said:


> I'd love for Alex to do an extension to CSB with:
> 
> -Horn Solo 2
> -Horns a2
> -Trumpet in E-flat
> -Trumpet Solo 2 (in C or B-flat, different from 1)
> -Trombone (tenor) Solo 2
> -Contrebase Trombone
> -Euphonium



Don't forget Bass Trumpet and Cimbasso ... those are perhaps the two instruments I am missing most in CSB.


----------



## Consona

Would it be easy to mix CSB with Cinebrass instruments?

And most importantly, how's the legato? Is it better than Cinebrass' adaptive legato and 90s trumpets legato with auto borrowing?


----------



## I like music

Consona said:


> Would it be easy to mix CSB with Cinebrass instruments?
> 
> And most importantly, how's the legato? Is it better than Cinebrass' adaptive legato and 90s trumpets legato with auto borrowing?



What is this autoborrowing people keep mentioning? Heard it for the first time on this thread, and since its first mention, it keeps getting mentioned!

I can't compare with Cinebrass, but the legato is very good. I'm sure examples are coming in soon!


----------



## Nicola74

Anyone tried to use breath controller instead modwheel with CSB?
While with CSS everything is ok, with CSSS when I use breath c. the notes stops playing after 2 seconds more or less and then I can only listen to the release sample when I stop playing the key.


----------



## WindcryMusic

Consona said:


> Would it be easy to mix CSB with Cinebrass instruments?
> 
> And most importantly, how's the legato? Is it better than Cinebrass' adaptive legato and 90s trumpets legato with auto borrowing?



In my tests of CSB last night against my other libraries (SSB, Cinebrass, MA1 and Forzo), I felt that CineBrass is the one that compared most closely with CSB. But the CSB legatos and dynamic range are both better than CineBrass IMO.


----------



## Consona

I like music said:


> What is this autoborrowing people keep mentioning? Heard it for the first time on this thread, and since its first mention, it keeps getting mentioned!


When you don't sample round robins, you can use a script that takes a sample that's higher or lower in pitch than the original, tunes it to that pitch and plays it instead of the original, it's a pseudo-round robin. 90s trumpets have this for their legato transition, so while no multiple samples of the same legato transition were taken, you can activate this script to fake it, so when you play a passage that uses a lot of the same notes, it sounds way better since the library does not play the same legato sample over and over again.


----------



## Consona

WindcryMusic said:


> In my tests of CSB last night against my other libraries (SSB, Cinebrass, MA1 and Forzo), I felt that CineBrass is the one that compared most closely with CSB.


Great, thx for the info.



WindcryMusic said:


> But the CSB legatos (...) better than CineBrass IMO.


Demo or it didn't happen. 

edit: You are right! Thanks for the demo!


----------



## WindcryMusic

Consona said:


> Great, thx for the info.
> 
> 
> Demo or it didn't happen.



Hehe. I wish I could, but my day job is kicking my behind right now, so I can't fire up the studio right now. (That will change before much longer, fortunately.)


----------



## Consona

WindcryMusic said:


> Hehe. I wish I could, but my day job is kicking my behind right now, so I can't fire up the studio right now. (That will change before much longer, fortunately.)


I can relate. Take your time, my discount code won't disappear (love @Alex W 's pricing model, no rush to buy it since I own some of his other libs, just great!).

I really want to hear how CSB handles fast legato lines. And still haven't heard that from 90s trumpets. Why there's no youtube review of that library from some user?


----------



## Pablocrespo

I think Alex mentioned a improved legato that was going to end up in the string series, would like to know, because I have three buttons for CSS legato speeds scripts, wouldn´t want to add CSB ones with different values.

Nevertheless I am using classic legato patches because in a hurry, moving the notes gets cumbersome. I wish there was an easy fix for the legato delays.


----------



## Go To 11

We need a legato lookahead! Similar to Cinesamples, Fluffy Audio Dominus, Genesis Choir - the ability to look ahead would make all that manual slip and slide redundant. It's the main reason I've never got Cinematic Studio Strings and am nervous about the brass. I can't take the headache of manually aligning every single legato transition, where other companies do it via scripting. How does it feel with Cinematic Studio Brass?


----------



## jamwerks

WindcryMusic said:


> In my tests of CSB last night against my other libraries (SSB, Cinebrass, MA1 and Forzo), I felt that CineBrass is the one that compared most closely with CSB. But the CSB legatos and dynamic range are both better than CineBrass IMO.


Century Brass also sounds quite similar to CineBrass tone-wise to my ears. I even like Century better. I haven't purchased CSB yet but judging from the demos, it should mix easitly with these two.


----------



## kavinsky

I keep seeing these comments for years now and its just ridiculous

I really hope he never changes his legato approach, simply because it leads to the best results.
Including the option of classic fast legato might be a good thing though
Just to shut up all the whining people once and for all

There can't be any compromise if you want a natural sounding legato transition.
Play your parts live using a sustain patch if you want fast legato.
Its really beyond me what's so hard to understand here


----------



## fixxer49

JohnBMears said:


> Horns, these will replace _most_ of my need for HWB horns


John, what aspect of HWB horns do you feel CSB will not replace for you?


----------



## Consona

Just for the record, I tried the Mutara Nebula fast lines and you know what's funny? Cinebrass legato sounded more fluent when the patch was tuned exactly 2 semi-tones up and the midi transposed 2 semi-tones down rather than playing it normally.

Also, the only libraries that handled that in a way I would not feel embarrassed putting it out as a real music were Auddict Woodwinds and Embertone Clarinet.


----------



## JohnBMears

fixxer49 said:


> John, what aspect of HWB horns do you feel CSB will not replace for you?



Mutes and FX for sure. Prob also some of the crescendo patches


----------



## tack

Go To 11 said:


> We need a legato lookahead! Similar to Cinesamples, Fluffy Audio Dominus, Genesis Choir - the ability to look ahead would make all that manual slip and slide redundant.


How does lookahead work in these libraries? The only solution I'm aware of is using Plugin Delay Compensation, but then obviously this doesn't work when you're performing realtime, which is where a lot of the criticism is. I believe Kontakt 7 is supposed to have a quantum temporal entanglement feature to enable it to predict future events during realtime input, but until then, I'm curious how Cinesamples, Genesis choir et al are doing it.


----------



## fixxer49

JohnBMears said:


> Mutes and FX for sure. Prob also some of the crescendo patches


ah yeah. almost forgot about those (even though I use them practically all the time.) I guess i'm too eager to wean myself off HWB/Play... thanks, John


----------



## hsindermann

Hey Tack, in case you'll set up a Reaticulate entry for CSB, could you share it? I somehow have trouble getting the options for the muted articulations to work right.

Thanks!


----------



## TheSigillite

galactic orange said:


> I’m using 32GB too hence the request. You’ve gone above and beyond with that detailed description and I appreciate your help very much. It looks like an orchestral template with CSB and CSS plus the other sections is feasible. I wasn’t sure though, was that with Mix mics only?


I only use the mix mic and maybe sometimes I'll go with individual mics. I'm at 32GB and if my samples are purged and only load as I need them I'll be find with my current setup. Best of luck!


----------



## Scamper

Talking about CineBrass, I just put this little line from the CSB introduction video in there for comparison.

Luckily, the CineBrass solo trumpet and horn are mellower than the other instruments, but while it seems to fit for the demo, it probably lacks the flexibility of CSB beyond that.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/cinebrass-csbdemo-mp3.17065/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Consona

Show us some fast legato lines...


----------



## Simon Ravn

Consona said:


> Show us some fast legato lines...



What's with the "fast legato" obsession? Why is that the most important thing for you? I would say that the general sound, expression, musicality and natural sounding legato is much more important. And my impression is that those things are very much in place. Haven't tested "fast legato" because frankly, it hasn't even crossed my mind as being a top priority.


----------



## Architekton

Scamper said:


> Talking about CineBrass, I just put this little line from the CSB introduction video in there for comparison.



CSB sounds way better and more stable sounding. Cinebrass sounds, at least in this demo, as some not warmed up players trying to jam something together.


----------



## tack

hsindermann said:


> Hey Tack, in case you'll set up a Reaticulate entry for CSB, could you share it? I somehow have trouble getting the options for the muted articulations to work right.


Yep I expect I'll do that this weekend. Will post it on the Reaticulate thread.


----------



## Consona

Simon Ravn said:


> What's with the "fast legato" obsession? Why is that the most important thing for you? I would say that the general sound, expression, musicality and natural sounding legato is much more important.


I just use a lot of fast legato passages in my music. And that's where samples really fail me. I have woodwinds covered, I can do playable Williams' runs no problem, but I need a brass library (preferably recorded in hall, i just like having that sound instead of close sample modeling) which can handle that.


----------



## MOMA

That was that. All my strong commitments to wait, read, listen and finally come to a wise decision is gone. Commence Downloading. CSB is coming home to papa.

Here comes the holidays – in the studio

MOMA


----------



## ag75

Consona said:


> I just use a lot of fast legato passages in my music. And that's where samples really fail me. I have woodwinds covered, I can do playable Williams' runs no problem, but I need a brass library (preferably recorded in hall, i just like having that sound instead of close sample modeling) which can handle that.


May I ask what woodwind library you use for your fast legato William’s runs?


----------



## ThomasL

Been waiting a few years for this...




...and now an hour seems long!


----------



## erica-grace

Simon Ravn said:


> What's with the "fast legato" obsession?



Probably because that is one of the weakest points wen it comes to sample libraries. One probably does not write fast legato lines all the time, but when you do, it tends to be an issue, while slow legato is not really a problem.


----------



## Alex Niedt

My first experiment with it (and also CSS)


----------



## I like music

ag75 said:


> May I ask what woodwind library you use for your fast legato William’s runs?


Also curious as it is something I want to nail down myself too.


----------



## Casiquire

Simon Ravn said:


> What's with the "fast legato" obsession? Why is that the most important thing for you? I would say that the general sound, expression, musicality and natural sounding legato is much more important. And my impression is that those things are very much in place. Haven't tested "fast legato" because frankly, it hasn't even crossed my mind as being a top priority.



It's less an obsession and more a common weakness of libraries. I don't use fast legato very often at all but every time I try it sounds wrong and my libraries are pretty snappy


----------



## LamaRose

Nicola74 said:


> Anyone tried to use breath controller instead modwheel with CSB?
> While with CSS everything is ok, with CSSS when I use breath c. the notes stops playing after 2 seconds more or less and then I can only listen to the release sample when I stop playing the key.


What controller are you using? I was thinking of getting a TEC specifically for CSSS.


----------



## Nicola74

LamaRose said:


> What controller are you using? I was thinking of getting a TEC specifically for CSSS.


I have a TEC too, I use it for woodwinds, brass, strings, voices...


----------



## tehreal

madfloyd said:


> I'm the same boat. Felt like I had to take advantage of the BF sale to get Berlin Strings... and then read that I could use my $100 coupon if I bought that + Berlin Brass together so I did. I hate myself now, especially since I knew that between OT's capsule and the library itself, Brass would probably never really be used... heck I haven't even downloaded it. I want THIS library much more.



I have BB and will most likely be adding CSB as well. For me, they have such different sounds. I like the quiet playing of BB, very expressive. Plus having individual players, vibrato and re-tongued legato makes it nice for writing for exposed brass ensemble.

At this point I have no idea if CSB does re-tongued legato, what its vibrato control is like and other features. Definitely want to get it for its great sound and better volume range but I'm waiting for more info/walkthroughs/reviews before I pull the trigger.

If Alex had released this a few weeks earlier would I still have gotten BB? Who knows. No doubt OT made a smart business decision.

*BTW if you haven't downloaded BB yet you might be able to convince them to give you a refund. May be tough since you bought with special coupon but may be worth a shot sending them an email.*


----------



## WindcryMusic

erica-grace said:


> Probably because that is one of the weakest points wen it comes to sample libraries. One probably does not write fast legato lines all the time, but when you do, it tends to be an issue, while slow legato is not really a problem.


----------



## Consona

ag75 said:


> May I ask what woodwind library you use for your fast legato William’s runs?


Sure. Auddict Master Solo Woodwinds and Embertone Clarinet.


----------



## Consona

So will anybody post some fast legato demo or what, guys?


----------



## boxheadboy50

Scamper said:


> Talking about CineBrass, I just put this little line from the CSB introduction video in there for comparison.
> [...]
> Luckily, the CineBrass solo trumpet and horn are mellower than the other instruments, but while it seems to fit for the demo, it probably lacks the flexibility of CSB beyond that.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/cinebrass-csbdemo-mp3.17065/][/AUDIOPLUS]


Woah, sounds like that trumpet player gave up on life on that last chord...!


----------



## N.Caffrey

boxheadboy50 said:


> Woah, sounds like that trumpet player gave up on life on that last chord...!


----------



## NoamL

WindcryMusic said:


>





(CSS out of the box, CSB out of the box with -7 dB, timpani & tamtam from Hollywood Orchestral Percussion. Any small timing issues are due to me just playing this in without click, not any inconsistency in the library.)


----------



## Consona

He said "fast legato lines" not "normal legato lines" though. 

But it sounds pretty sweet, especially the bigger part.


----------



## Soundlex

NoamL said:


> (CSS out of the box, CSB out of the box with -7 dB, timpani & tamtam from Hollywood Orchestral Percussion. Any small timing issues are due to me just playing this in without click, not any inconsistency in the library.)



Sounds really great!! I'm still in love with CSS too, you made it shine once again here on just a couple of notes.


----------



## Consona

Mock-up this!!!:


----------



## NoamL

I'm happy that CSB made that look easy to you, but I encourage you to compare CSB:



with Hollywood Brass:


[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/hwb_gondortheme-mp3.17105/][/AUDIOPLUS]

or the Spitfire Studio Brass version which was deleted.

IMO what makes the CS series great is that the legato transitions work right alongside the rebow/retongue transitions and the "start of a new phrase" note attacks. Thus, you can have a phrase where some notes are slurred, repeated, or played straight, and it all works together creating a deceptively easy-looking performance. In effect, there are a lot more options under the hood than it looks like from the GUI...


----------



## Consona

NoamL said:


> (CSS out of the box, CSB out of the box with -7 dB, timpani & tamtam from Hollywood Orchestral Percussion. Any small timing issues are due to me just playing this in without click, not any inconsistency in the library.)



Could you post the midi, I'd mock-up it with CS2 and Cinebrass.


----------



## NoamL

Consona said:


> Could you post the midi, I'd mock-up it with CS2 and Cinebrass.



OK - but to make a fair comparison you'll probably have to spend some time with the MIDI adapting it to CS2/CB. Here you go!


----------



## Consona

NoamL said:


> OK - but to make a fair comparison you'll probably have to spend some time with the MIDI adapting it to CS2/CB. Here you go!


Thank's a ton. Yea, I'll tweak it. Do you know where exactly is that part in the score? So I can listen to the real performance.


----------



## Ashermusic

I just received this and will review it for AskAudio.com

Just a teaser, if you are looking for a big, epic sounding brass library with serious cojones, this isn't it. Not as aggressive even as Hollywood Brass and of course there are more aggressive brass libraries than HB in the marketplace.

But the same is true of CSS vs some other string libraries but if like me if you really like the sound of CSS, I think you will be quite pleased with CSB as well.


----------



## kavinsky

NoamL said:


> I'm happy that CSB made that look easy to you, but I encourage you to compare CSB:



I suppose those strings are CSS? sounds lovely.


----------



## sagebaggott

Apoligies for the cross-post, but just downloaded CSB and having problems getting the lib to show up in Kontakt in Logic Pro (it shows up in the standalone Kontakt 5 though!). Here's the link to the other thread for more info: 
https://vi-control.net/community/th...ows-up-in-standalone-but-not-logic-pro.77800/
If anyone has suggestions, let me know there.


----------



## Soundlex

kavinsky said:


> I suppose those strings are CSS? sounds lovely.


CSS it is...sounds wonderful, doesn't it?


----------



## Ashermusic

sagebaggott said:


> Apoligies for the cross-post, but just downloaded CSB and having problems getting the lib to show up in Kontakt in Logic Pro (it shows up in the standalone Kontakt 5 though!). Here's the link to the other thread for more info:
> https://vi-control.net/community/th...ows-up-in-standalone-but-not-logic-pro.77800/
> If anyone has suggestions, let me know there.




It shows up in both Logic Pro and VE Pro here.


----------



## NoamL

Consona said:


> Thank's a ton. Yea, I'll tweak it. Do you know where exactly is that part in the score? So I can listen to the real performance.



Inspired by this scene - but I don't have the score, so my orchestration is different -


----------



## NoamL

Ashermusic said:


> Not as aggressive even as Hollywood Brass



Wow! I mostly disagree, so I'll look forward to your review and your POV. I haven't dived into the short & muted articulations much, but the legato/sustains and marcato patches have real, killer top end to them. The marcatos go up further than the sustains. Just listen to something like this -



You can get that with 95 or 100 on the modwheel with the Trumpet Solo + 2 Trumpets, playing the Marcato articulation.

I've whinged on this forum before about brass libraries needing real top and bottom ends for dynamics.... CSB has me very pleased and will likely be 80%+ of my brass template going forward. You're right that it's not Trailer Brass, Iceni, or anything like that.

If someone wants traditional-sized brass ensembles with real soaring top end, then CSB, Caspian and Hollywood Brass are all good choices (and stay away from Berlin Brass, as well as some others). Caspian is cool because of the rich hall sound and wide dynamic range. CSB is cool because of the incredibly consistent articulations and top notch legatos. Hollywood used to be one of the better options but IMO suffers from inconsistency within instruments and some _real_ hit-and-miss between the instrument _groups_ (seems like a widespread opinion that the horns kick ass and the trumpets are weaker). Sound, and workflow, are both important considerations, that's why I'm currently remaking my template to standardize around CS series.


----------



## Knomes

NoamL said:


> (CSS out of the box, CSB out of the box with -7 dB



Can I ask why have you chosen such values?
Do you think that this is the correct ratio between the two libraries?


----------



## NoamL

Knomes said:


> Can I ask why have you chosen such values?
> Do you think that this is the correct ratio between the two libraries?



It's only my opinion, but yes I think the correct ratio is in that general area. I'm not sure what it should be exactly. This demo sounded fine with CSB at -7. I've done other tests comparing with real scores: I brought a bit of audio into Logic, changed the volume so that it sounded like CSS, then tried to figure out what volume CSB should be to match the score. Those tests gave values like -10 or -12 for the horns and even a bit more for the trumpets. All I'm really confident saying is that 0 is for sure incorrect. Most of the demos posted so far with CSS/CSB at par, sound to me like the brass is unnaturally overwhelming.

I think Alex mentioned somewhere that he's making a video about volumes. In any case you can see in his walkthrough video that he has the master volume in Kontakt turned down to -9!


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

NoamL said:


> It's only my opinion, but yes I think the correct ratio is in that general area. I'm not sure what it should be exactly. This demo sounded fine with CSB at -7. I've done other tests comparing with real scores: I brought a bit of audio into Logic, changed the volume so that it sounded like CSS, then tried to figure out what volume CSB should be to match the score. Those tests gave values like -10 or -12 for the horns and even a bit more for the trumpets. All I'm really confident saying is that 0 is for sure incorrect. Most of the demos posted so far with CSS/CSB at par, sound to me like the brass is unnaturally overwhelming.
> 
> I think Alex mentioned somewhere that he's making a video about volumes. In any case you can see in his walkthrough video that he has the master volume in Kontakt turned down to -9!



Noam, a few months ago you mentioned the idea of brass in terms of "gold", "silver", and "platinum", and I find that concept very useful. Do you think you'll be reaching for CSB for any of your "gold" needs? I'm currently looking at getting OT Ark 2 brass for that softer, rounder sound.


----------



## TheSigillite

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Noam, a few months ago you mentioned the idea of brass in terms of "gold", "silver", and "platinum", and I find that concept very useful. Do you think you'll be reaching for CSB for any of your "gold" needs? I'm currently looking at getting OT Ark 2 brass for that softer, rounder sound.



CSB is definitely going to be my main brass library sprinkling others as needed. Just the dynamic range alone is wonderful. I'm with you though, I'm getting ark 2 for the really soft, rounder brass sound i really enjoy from ark 2 walkthroughs. I'm still on the fence on ark3 but i might just do it since the deal is great at the moment.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

NoamL said:


> I'm happy that CSB made that look easy to you, but I encourage you to compare CSB:
> 
> 
> 
> with Hollywood Brass:
> 
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/hwb_gondortheme-mp3.17105/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> or the Spitfire Studio Brass version which was deleted.
> 
> IMO what makes the CS series great is that the legato transitions work right alongside the rebow/retongue transitions and the "start of a new phrase" note attacks. Thus, you can have a phrase where some notes are slurred, repeated, or played straight, and it all works together creating a deceptively easy-looking performance. In effect, there are a lot more options under the hood than it looks like from the GUI...




wtf is going on with the hwb brass horn legato there? There are so many bumps and things? can´t remember that it was that bad..CSB sounds pretty good in that example!


----------



## NoamL

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Noam, a few months ago you mentioned the idea of brass in terms of "gold", "silver", and "platinum", and I find that concept very useful. Do you think you'll be reaching for CSB for any of your "gold" needs? I'm currently looking at getting OT Ark 2 brass for that softer, rounder sound.



Check out the new soft demo on the CSB site (Christmas Morning)

It can't play quieter than that. if you _really_ want piano/pianissimo indeed something like Ark 2 or Albion V seems like a good choice.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

NoamL said:


> Check out the new soft demo on the CSB site (Christmas Morning)
> 
> It can't play quieter than that. if you _really_ want piano/pianissimo indeed something like Ark 2 or Albion V seems like a good choice.



For 30 seconds long brass pads : Albion V
For anything else : Ark 2 !


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

whitewasteland said:


> For 30 seconds long brass pads : Albion V
> For anything else : Ark 2 !


Your mockups really sell the Arks well, thanks! (Apologies for taking us off topic.)


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Your mockups really sell the Arks well, thanks! (Apologies for taking us off topic.)



Thank you, @Land of Missing Parts !


----------



## brek

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Your mockups really sell the Arks well, thanks! (Apologies for taking us off topic.)





whitewasteland said:


> Thank you, @Land of Missing Parts !



Which mockups? I've been trying to find more examples of Ark 2 in action, so thanks for pointing me in the right direction.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

brek said:


> Which mockups? I've been trying to find more examples of Ark 2 in action, so thanks for pointing me in the right direction.



I'll send you a PM, as this is a topic for Cinematic Studio Brass


----------



## TheSigillite

whitewasteland said:


> I'll send you a PM, as this is a topic for Cinematic Studio Brass


Could I get a PM with links as well? Thanks. Or are they the ones posted in your signature?


----------



## jimjazzuk

@NoamL nice demo! Do you think CSB will satisfy my longing for a John Williams sound? I want a very natural orchestral sound rather than a forced 'epic' sound. This would be my first brass library, but I already have CSS.


----------



## erikradbo

whitewasteland said:


> I'll send you a PM, as this is a topic for Cinematic Studio Brass



Me too please. Or why not start a new thread !


----------



## Grim_Universe

@jimjazzuk probably not, but we don't have any brass library better than CSB at the moment. It has nice top end, it has nice movability in terms of legato and fast passages, it has very nice dynamic range and very flexible in terms of mixing. Ofcourse you will face problems when trying to recreate the JW sound, but there is no library which can possibly handle it at the 100% succes rate.
I love it. Just love it.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

erikradbo said:


> Me too please. Or why not start a new thread !


Redirect to whitewasteland's mockups.


----------



## Casiquire

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> wtf is going on with the hwb brass horn legato there? There are so many bumps and things? can´t remember that it was that bad..CSB sounds pretty good in that example!



HB has always had some bumpy horns in my opinion. I only have Gold but some patches are less useable. They're awfully shaky in the low resister. I adore the sound of the library though


----------



## Michael Stibor

Don't mean to sound like a jerk, but those people who are buying spitfire studio brass over CSB... how? I just don't get in any context where that program sounds better. Like none.


----------



## Gerbil

mikefrommontreal said:


> Don't mean to sound like a jerk, but those people who are buying spitfire studio brass over CSB... how? I just don't get in any context where that program sounds better. Like none.



Pianissimo. I haven't chosen it over CSB (it's not a competition) as I intend to get the latter at some point, but I like Spitfire's approach to sampling subtle, quiet playing - here in a pleasant sounding studio setting - and am missing that in the libraries I currently own.


----------



## gussunkri

mikefrommontreal said:


> Don't mean to sound like a jerk, but those people who are buying spitfire studio brass over CSB... how? I just don't get in any context where that program sounds better. Like none.


Price is much lower for core version of. SStB


----------



## Sovereign

Ashermusic said:


> Just a teaser, if you are looking for a big, epic sounding brass library with serious cojones, this isn't it. Not as aggressive even as Hollywood Brass and of course there are more aggressive brass libraries than HB in the marketplace.


No, no no no no. I have probably most of the brass libraries out there and CSB has no problem being big and aggressive. Can't believe you wrote this.


----------



## Consona

For the love of god, can someone post some fast legato line demo, please? 

Here's the midi:


----------



## zvenx

Sovereign said:


> No, no no no no. I have probably most of the brass libraries out there and CSB has no problem being big and aggressive. Can't believe you wrote this.



Any examples of this we can hear please.
rsp


----------



## Michael Stibor

Gerbil said:


> Pianissimo. I haven't chosen it over CSB (it's not a competition) as I intend to get the latter at some point, but I like Spitfire's approach to sampling subtle, quiet playing - here in a pleasant sounding studio setting - and am missing that in the libraries I currently own.



I say _chosen_ because I assume most people are like me, and could only buy one or the other, so I had to _choose_ between them. Not chosen as in picking a winner.
And that's fair, the pianissimo did sound really good in the Spitfire's videos. It's just their short notes sound robotic and overall I thought it sounded surprisingly thin in the audio examples they posted on Thursday.


----------



## Michael Stibor

gussunkri said:


> Price is much lower for core version of. SStB


True. And my original plan was to go Spitfire for that reason. I assumed based on my previous experience with both companies (CSS and Bernard Herrmann respectively) that CSB would be better than SStB, but I was hoping that SStB would be close enough comparatively (in terms of quality) that I could save a bit of money and just go with that for my needs. Unfortunately it wasn't, but I think the relatively small difference in price is worth it for CSB.


----------



## Gerbil

mikefrommontreal said:


> I say _chosen_ because I assume most people are like me, and could only buy one or the other, so I had to _choose_ between them. Not chosen as in picking a winner.
> And that's fair, the pianissimo did sound really good in the Spitfire's videos. It's just their short notes sound robotic and overall I thought it sounded surprisingly thin in the audio examples they posted on Thursday.


 
Apologies if it seemed I was digging at you. No ill intent meant. I was just talking from my own perspective when I said competition. I didn't mean that you were purposely pitting one against the other for sport. My fault for not being clearer.

I've downloaded it but not had time to play around as yet but I'll check out those shorts. Alex has incredible levels of quality control, which is a reason so many of us admire his products. Spitfire are generally less consistent in my experience, I suppose because of the sprawling amount of data their libraries contain. It takes time to get to know the good and bad elements, but there are always jewels in there and they are more often than not top quality gems.


----------



## Ashermusic

Sovereign said:


> No, no no no no. I have probably most of the brass libraries out there and CSB has no problem being big and aggressive. Can't believe you wrote this.



Load e.g. the 4 horns instrument and then load a comparable instrument from Metropolis Ark, or Hollywood Brass, or Kirk Hunter and you will hear exactly what I mean.


----------



## Raphioli

Maybe people have different perspectives of "epic/big".
From what I've heard CSB, it can blast through the roof. At least to me, it reaches the point that it rips your ear drums off (in a good way of course).
Like the horns and trumpets in "The Bikers" from Jumanji by Henry Jackman.
Which was mocked up by NoamL.

Then you have horns for example in Metropolis Ark 1, which have a different epic-ness from the hall and section size.
Something like the epic-ness you can hear in the horns from Drink Up Me hearties (PotC: At Worlds End by Hans Zimmer).

BTW, I'm not aware of the actual section sizes used in the actual recording of each piece.
I'm purely talking from my impression of how brass libraries have different epic-ness to them. (using those 2 pieces as reference)
I can see how some people might feel Ark1 might sound more epic to them than CSB.
And of course vise versa.

Thats how I personally see it.


----------



## Ashermusic

Raphioli said:


> Maybe people have different perspectives of "epic/big".
> From what I've heard CSB, it can blast through the roof. At least to me, it reaches the point that it rips your ear drums off (in a good way of course).
> Like the horns and trumpets in "The Bikers" from Jumanji by Henry Jackman.
> Which was mocked up by NoamL.
> 
> Then you have horns for example in Metropolis Ark 1, which have a different epic-ness from the hall and section size.
> Something like the epic-ness you can hear in the horns from Drink Up Me hearties (PotC: At Worlds End by Hans Zimmer).
> 
> BTW, I'm not aware of the actual section sizes used in the actual recording of each piece.
> I'm purely talking from my impression of how brass libraries have different epic-ness to them. (using those 2 pieces as reference)
> I can see how some people might feel Ark1 might sound more epic to them than CSB.
> And of course vise versa.
> 
> Thats how I personally see it.



Big is not just loud, any library pretty much can be loud. It is more about "in your face" and section size.

But maybe you're correct. Here are 4 different horn ensembles.


----------



## Raphioli

Ashermusic said:


> Big is not just loud, any library pretty much can be loud. It is more about "in your face" and section size.[/MEDIA]



Yes I'm aware (and agree).
I just wanted to say that different libraries achieve that epic-ness in a different way imho.
So for example, both Ark1 and CSB have that big/epic sound. Its just a different type of epic-ness to me.


----------



## Ashermusic

Raphioli said:


> Yes I'm aware (and agree).
> I just wanted to say that different libraries achieve that epic-ness in a different way imho.
> So for example, both Ark1 and CSB have that big/epic sound. Its just a different type of epic-ness to me.



Fair enough, did you listen to the little snippet I just posted?


----------



## Raphioli

Ashermusic said:


> Fair enough, did you listen to the little snippet I just posted?



Yes I did. And I think I've actually listened to every user demos on this thread as well. (was very entertaining and informative)
And I think I know what you are referring to when you're saying big/epic.


----------



## Ashermusic

Raphioli said:


> Yes I did. And I think I've actually listened to every user demos on this thread as well. (was very entertaining and informative)
> And I think I know what you are referring to when you're saying big/epic.



BTW, the order in that audio example is this, with no MIDI programming, reverb or other FX, just tried to match levels a little:
1. Cinematic Studio Brass 4 Horns
2. Metropolis Ark Horns a9
3. Kirk Hunter Concert Brass 2, 4 players (he also has an 8)
4. Hollywood Brass 6 horns

But please don't misunderstand, epic or not, I am loving this library so far.


----------



## Raphioli

Ashermusic said:


> 2. Metropolis Ark Horns a9



I'm actually surprised that the 2nd one is horns from Ark1. (I literally listened to it again for the 4th time because of this.)
Because I've listened to various walkthoughs and user demos and had the impression of it sounding more bigger, in this instance I mean, more players and with more of that sizzle (brassy) sound.
Maybe it has something to do wit the close mics(?)(I dunno).

Interesting...


----------



## Simon Ravn

My first test with CSB:

http://www.simonravn.com/media/CSB-test-SR.mp3

I think it can definitely by big and loud, no doubt! And it sounds so organic and full of air and space. I love it.


----------



## N.Caffrey

Raphioli said:


> I'm actually surprised that the 2nd one is horns from Ark1. (I literally listened to it again for the 4th time because of this.)
> Because I've listened to various walkthoughs and user demos and had the impression of it sounding more bigger, in this instance I mean, more players and with more of that sizzle (brassy) sound.
> Maybe it has something to do wit the close mics(?)(I dunno).
> 
> Interesting...


Same here, I wondered if it was a mistake and CSB was actually the second one


----------



## jbuhler

Raphioli said:


> I'm actually surprised that the 2nd one is horns from Ark1. (I literally listened to it again for the 4th time because of this.)
> Because I've listened to various walkthoughs and user demos and had the impression of it sounding more bigger, in this instance I mean, more players and with more of that sizzle (brassy) sound.
> Maybe it has something to do wit the close mics(?)(I dunno).
> 
> Interesting...


That's not the Ark 1 a9 patch out of the box. The panning is definitely different from the default. I also don't think I'm hearing the tree.​


----------



## kavinsky

Ashermusic said:


> Big is not just loud, any library pretty much can be loud. It is more about "in your face" and section size.
> 
> But maybe you're correct. Here are 4 different horn ensembles.




ouch. CSB has very obvious and extremely short loop points
that's really surprising.
hopefully its just an esemble patch bug?


----------



## Michael Stibor

Ashermusic said:


> BTW, the order in that audio example is this, with no MIDI programming, reverb or other FX, just tried to match levels a little:
> 1. Cinematic Studio Brass 4 Horns
> 2. Metropolis Ark Horns a9
> 3. Kirk Hunter Concert Brass 2, 4 players (he also has an 8)
> 4. Hollywood Brass 6 horns
> 
> But please don't misunderstand, epic or not, I am loving this library so far.


Interesting. I listened to the examples and thought only the first one (CSB) wasn't 'epic' in the traditional sense. Though it was the one that sounded the least compressed. Granted right now I'm at work and am possibly in the worst possible listening environment possible, but still!


----------



## Michael Stibor

kavinsky said:


> ouch. CSB has very obvious and extremely short loop points
> that's really surprising.
> hopefully its just an esemble patch bug?


Yeah, what's up with that?


----------



## NoamL

zvenx said:


> Any examples of this we can hear please.
> rsp



I am working on a trailer track with a composer in another country. To work together, we have to balance our templates. In the process of doing this I found that the top of the Marcato patch in CSB is just about the same dynamic as the top of the brass in Ark 1. Here's a comparison of the 3 Bass Trombones and 3 Horns in Ark1 to the equivalent instruments in CSB:


[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ark1_csb-mp3.17132/][/AUDIOPLUS]

(the lowest Marcato dynamic is not the softest CSB can play, so I put an example of CSB's lowest Sustain dynamic at the end of the MP3).

*Not a very musical test I admit!*

IMO, no dynamic level higher than what Ark/CSB demonstrates here actually exists  Instead, in my observation, composers make the brass ensemble _larger_ to sound more massive (the 12 horn patch in Cinebrass or Century Brass, 9 horns in Ark1, 10 horns in Trailer Brass, 6 horns in Hollywood or Spitfire Symphonic or Caspian, etc are all good for this...) and they use some multiband plugins to really bring out the crispy highs from the melodic brass, a sort of artificial cuivre.

I'm really finicky about having proper dynamics in the libraries I use and NOT having to use CC11, and CSB has the same real, full dynamics I love in Hollywood Brass. IMO few developers since EastWest have really gone the 110% effort to capture the _full_ range of brass.


----------



## NoamL

Simon Ravn said:


> My first test with CSB:
> 
> http://www.simonravn.com/media/CSB-test-SR.mp3
> 
> I think it can definitely by big and loud, no doubt! And it sounds so organic and full of air and space. I love it.



Now THIS is the sort of content we should all be creating with this library  I loved the middle section! The brass has such a foreboding, noble, solemn tone in that dynamic. Reminds me a lot of "Order 66."


----------



## Hanu_H

Ashermusic said:


> BTW, the order in that audio example is this, with no MIDI programming, reverb or other FX, just tried to match levels a little:
> 1. Cinematic Studio Brass 4 Horns
> 2. Metropolis Ark Horns a9
> 3. Kirk Hunter Concert Brass 2, 4 players (he also has an 8)
> 4. Hollywood Brass 6 horns
> 
> But please don't misunderstand, epic or not, I am loving this library so far.


That can't be right, I am pretty sure that number 3 is Metropolis Ark Horns and number 2 is Kirk Hunter...

-Hannes


----------



## tack

The looping you hear in Jay's excerpt is real. CSB 4 Horns patch. But it's just the Eb that's untoward, the other notes seem not to be so obvious.

It does seem like it's looping early, but I'm not a brass player, so it's possible at fortissimo on the horn you really do run out of breath very quickly, or perhaps it's just very difficult to keep a consistent tone at that dynamic.

(Edit: more noticeable still with the solo horn patch.)


----------



## JohnBMears

Ashermusic said:


> BTW, the order in that audio example is this, with no MIDI programming, reverb or other FX, just tried to match levels a little:
> 1. Cinematic Studio Brass 4 Horns
> 2. Metropolis Ark Horns a9
> 3. Kirk Hunter Concert Brass 2, 4 players (he also has an 8)
> 4. Hollywood Brass 6 horns
> 
> But please don't misunderstand, epic or not, I am loving this library so far.



@Ashermusic Are you sure that is the correct order? My MA1 Horns do not sound like that (I don't have Kirk Hunter)


----------



## zvenx

Simon Ravn said:


> My first test with CSB:
> 
> http://www.simonravn.com/media/CSB-test-SR.mp3
> 
> I think it can definitely by big and loud, no doubt! And it sounds so organic and full of air and space. I love it.



This.... is the first CSB demo I have heard where I love the sound.
I choose a few years ago to continue investing in Alex's stuff as my defacto Orchestra (can't afford all of them)(Along with eventually Spitifire ones when I can afford them)..and love the flexibility in Alex's demos but not the sound itself (but I felt that way about his CSS demos till I bought it and mixed the mics more to suit my taste). I was waiting for the DJ walk thru.
Thanks for this Simon.
Now I am sold on it.
rsp


----------



## axb312

NoamL said:


> I am working on a trailer track with a composer in another country. To work together, we have to balance our templates. In the process of doing this I found that the top of the Marcato patch in CSB is just about the same dynamic as the top of the brass in Ark 1. Here's a comparison of the 3 Bass Trombones and 3 Horns in Ark1 to the equivalent instruments in CSB:
> 
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ark1_csb-mp3.17132/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> (the lowest Marcato dynamic is not the softest CSB can play, so I put an example of CSB's lowest Sustain dynamic at the end of the MP3).
> 
> *Not a very musical test I admit!*
> 
> IMO, no dynamic level higher than what Ark/CSB demonstrates here actually exists  Instead, in my observation, composers make the brass ensemble _larger_ to sound more massive (the 12 horn patch in Cinebrass or Century Brass, 9 horns in Ark1, 10 horns in Trailer Brass, 6 horns in Hollywood or Spitfire Symphonic or Caspian, etc are all good for this...) and they use some multiband plugins to really bring out the crispy highs from the melodic brass, a sort of artificial cuivre.
> 
> I'm really finicky about having proper dynamics in the libraries I use and NOT having to use CC11, and CSB has the same real, full dynamics I love in Hollywood Brass. IMO few developers since EastWest have really gone the 110% effort to capture the _full_ range of brass.



Ark 1 (if it came first) sounds louder to me...


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Ashermusic said:


> Big is not just loud, any library pretty much can be loud. It is more about "in your face" and section size.
> 
> But maybe you're correct. Here are 4 different horn ensembles.




And they are from what libraries?


----------



## tack

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> And they are from what libraries?


Scroll up


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

tack said:


> Scroll up



Oh..I see..sorry..I am worn out from the day..now I see it.


----------



## Brian Nowak

Ashermusic said:


> BTW, the order in that audio example is this, with no MIDI programming, reverb or other FX, just tried to match levels a little:
> 1. Cinematic Studio Brass 4 Horns
> 2. Metropolis Ark Horns a9
> 3. Kirk Hunter Concert Brass 2, 4 players (he also has an 8)
> 4. Hollywood Brass 6 horns
> 
> But please don't misunderstand, epic or not, I am loving this library so far.



If you really mean the second example is the Ark 1 9 horns, I have to ask:

How in the heck did you make it sound so terrible?


----------



## Jonas Hallstrom

A short holiday test of CSB


----------



## N.Caffrey

Jonas Hallstrom said:


> A short holiday test of CSB




@trumpoz and @Rodney Money what do you guys think of the library?


----------



## NathanTiemeyer

Simon Ravn said:


> My first test with CSB:
> 
> http://www.simonravn.com/media/CSB-test-SR.mp3
> 
> I think it can definitely by big and loud, no doubt! And it sounds so organic and full of air and space. I love it.


Incredible demo, very musical!  what other libraries did you use in this, if you don't mind me asking?


----------



## Rodney Money

N.Caffrey said:


> @trumpoz and @Rodney Money what do you guys think of the library?


Can it do this?

Or this?


----------



## WindcryMusic

Consona said:


> For the love of god, can someone post some fast legato line demo, please?
> 
> Here's the midi:



Okay, you've brow-beaten me into it, hehe. This isn't a precise copy of the notes from your midi, but I took the same basic lines and tempo, and used CSB trumpets, then horns, then trumpets.

No effects applied, just the mix mics from CSB. I do have a little passive EQ on my master buss which I left inline to give it some top, and then Pro-L2 to bring up the level. For these lines I played the same part on both Trumpet Solo and Trumpet a2 patches, and then on the Horn Solo and Horn a4 patches. In order to get something that I felt most closely approximated the sound of the brass lines from the original soundtrack, I varied articulations between the solo and group patches, using some Sustain Legato, some Marcato Legato, and some Marcato Legato w/Accents. I played everything at higher velocities in order to get the Fast Legato transitions, of course.


----------



## trumpoz

N.Caffrey said:


> @trumpoz and @Rodney Money what do you guys think of the library?


I like the tone. Only listening on my phone but that solo tpt legato sounds lovely.


----------



## Knomes

Someone knows why there are not all the notes in the lower range of the horns?


----------



## axb312

WindcryMusic said:


> Okay, you've brow-beaten me into it, hehe. This isn't a precise copy of the notes from your midi, but I took the same basic lines and tempo, and used CSB trumpets, then horns, then trumpets.
> 
> No effects applied, just the mix mics from CSB. I do have a little passive EQ on my master buss which I left inline to give it some top, and then Pro-L2 to bring up the level. For these lines I played the same part on both Trumpet Solo and Trumpet a2 patches, and then on the Horn Solo and Horn a4 patches. In order to get something that I felt most closely approximated the sound of the brass lines from the original soundtrack, I varied articulations between the solo and group patches, using some Sustain Legato, some Marcato Legato, and some Marcato Legato w/Accents. I played everything at higher velocities in order to get the Fast Legato transitions, of course.



Do trumpets or horns ever play that fast?


----------



## WindcryMusic

axb312 said:


> Do trumpets or horns ever play that fast?



Those lines are basically lifted from Horner's Star Trek 2 "The Wrath of Khan" soundtrack ... so yes, occasionally they do, it seems.


----------



## JohnBMears

Rodney Money said:


> Can it do this?
> 
> Or this?




@Rodney Money I cannot remember if you have Berlin Brass (which would fit your posted examples of low dynamics with a soft timbre) but let me vouch for CSB, it is insanely good and I promise you'll love it. I seem to remember you have CSS, so it'll be right at home. Go for it when you can!


----------



## Zhao Shen

JohnBMears said:


> @Rodney Money I cannot remember if you have Berlin Brass (which would fit your posted examples of low dynamics with a soft timbre) but let me vouch for CSB, it is insanely good and I promise you'll love it. I seem to remember you have CSS, so it'll be right at home. Go for it when you can!



It's live players, not Berlin Brass.


----------



## Consona

WindcryMusic said:


> Okay, you've brow-beaten me into it, hehe. This isn't a precise copy of the notes from your midi, but I took the same basic lines and tempo, and used CSB trumpets, then horns, then trumpets.
> 
> No effects applied, just the mix mics from CSB. I do have a little passive EQ on my master buss which I left inline to give it some top, and then Pro-L2 to bring up the level. For these lines I played the same part on both Trumpet Solo and Trumpet a2 patches, and then on the Horn Solo and Horn a4 patches. In order to get something that I felt most closely approximated the sound of the brass lines from the original soundtrack, I varied articulations between the solo and group patches, using some Sustain Legato, some Marcato Legato, and some Marcato Legato w/Accents. I played everything at higher velocities in order to get the Fast Legato transitions, of course.








Thank you!

So basically all it needs is that auto borrow feature from 90s Retro Trumpets, since the legato itself can handle that (which is, just wow). With the horns' legato you can easily tell it's samples because the transitions repeat themselves very obviously, but the trumpets example sounds exceptionally good for a sample-based performance of that line even without any tool that changes the transitions played. Can't stop listening to that, sooo good, I'm so surprised by those trumpets.  
@Alex W Would it be hard to implement something like Ultra TKT script (that's basically what auto borrowing is, I believe) into the library? Since the Kontakt editing option is not available.

And you were absolutely right WindcryMusic, CSB legato is better than CineBrass legato, even way better I'd say*. Now I want to hear that performed by 90s Retro Trumpets fast legato patch.  Does anybody even own that library?

Thanks again for the demo!


*edit: Wait, I'm testing it and the results are actually surprisingly good. Stay tuned...


----------



## Consona

@WindcryMusic I used your post in the Brass wars thread, if there's any problem with it let me know and I'll delete it.


----------



## Consona

A CineBrass example for those interested: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/brass-wars-updated.20967/page-15#post-4324613



Spoiler: Alert



It's fricking good!


----------



## Simon Ravn

NathanTiemeyer said:


> Incredible demo, very musical!  what other libraries did you use in this, if you don't mind me asking?



Hi - thanks To keep it in the CS domain all strings are CS strings - percussion is Cinesamples and woods are Berlin + Spitfire.

Thanks!


----------



## Consona

From what I tried to mock-up the Gondor theme, CSB legato from the @NoamL 's demo felt way more smooth on those slower lines than CineBrass.


----------



## Steve Hicks

with apologies if I have been beaten to it already - a couple of "standards" for ref

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/binary-mp3.17154/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/imperial-march-mp3.17155/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## SoNowWhat?

Steve Hicks said:


> with apologies if I have been beaten to it already - a couple of "standards" for ref
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/binary-mp3.17154/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/imperial-march-mp3.17155/][/AUDIOPLUS]


These put a real smile on my face and I’m only listening on my crappy phone speaker. Nice one.


----------



## WindcryMusic

Consona said:


> @WindcryMusic I used your post in the Brass wars thread, if there's any problem with it let me know and I'll delete it.



No problem!


----------



## Ashermusic

Brian Nowak said:


> If you really mean the second example is the Ark 1 9 horns, I have to ask:
> 
> How in the heck did you make it sound so terrible?



Very simple  I dragged in a an Apple Loop for brass, and replaced the default instrument with the default patch for the Ark Horns, and deleted all the MIDI ccs. I then did the same for all the others.


----------



## Ashermusic

I have to say, people are already getting _very_ nice results with CSB. I think it is replacing Hollywood Brass in my "Quick Compose" VE Pro template.


----------



## Hanu_H

Ashermusic said:


> Very simple  I dragged in a an Apple Loop for brass, and replaced the default instrument with the default patch for the Ark Horns, and deleted all the MIDI ccs. I then did the same for all the others.


Hi Jay,

Are you really sure that the second example is Metropolis? It has no hall in the sound...

-Hannes


----------



## Ashermusic

Hanu_H said:


> Hi Jay,
> 
> Are you really sure that the second example is Metropolis? It has no hall in the sound...
> 
> -Hannes


Pretty sure but I will double check.


----------



## Brian Nowak

Ashermusic said:


> Pretty sure but I will double check.



I am saying this because it sounds like something is really quite screwed up. I have not been able to make Ark 1's 9 horn sound like this, which is simultaneously muted sounding, dry, and the stereo image seems quite different as well. 

If it is Ark 1, does it always sound this way for you? If so, you should probably check your settings. Something ain't right.


----------



## Ashermusic

Maybe deleting all the MIDI CC's did it, I will check when I am at my computer.


----------



## jbuhler

Ashermusic said:


> Maybe deleting all the MIDI CC's did it, I will check when I am at my computer.


Look at the mics as well.


----------



## JF

Quick chorale mockup.


----------



## Ashermusic

jbuhler said:


> Look at the mics as well.



Nope it's the default mics, but yes deleting the MIDI ccs is what changed the sound.

Now you hear CSB followed by Ark followed by Hollywood Brass.


----------



## jbuhler

Ashermusic said:


> Nope it's the default mics, but yes deleting the MIDI ccs is what changed the sound.
> 
> Now you hear CSB followed by Ark followed by Hollywood Brass.


Now, what were those CCs doing to change the sound like that? The panning shifted, the tree sounded like it was deactivated and there are other aspects of the sound that didn’t sound characteristic of the Ark a9 patch. Most curious.


----------



## Ashermusic

jbuhler said:


> Now, what were those CCs doing to change the sound like that? The panning shifted, the tree sounded like it was deactivated and there are other aspects of the sound that didn’t sound characteristic of the Ark a9 patch. Most curious.



Whatever they did, it wasn't good


----------



## NoamL

*Raiders March* is harder than it looks!



I played it one way and then went to the recording and realized I was all wrong. You really gotta have those sharp attacks otherwise it loses all the jaunty quality. 

Don't use marcatos here, it'll turn it into "Blah-de blargh blargh, Blah-de blargh."  Another thing I noticed on the recording is that the trumpets play a tiny bit ahead of the beat, and they also make those 16th upbeats _really_ tight and snappy.

I'm still not 100% satisfied with this but I have work to do so that's it for now


----------



## cloudesky

NoamL said:


> *Raiders March* is harder than it looks!
> 
> 
> 
> I played it one way and then went to the recording and realized I was all wrong. You really gotta have those sharp attacks otherwise it loses all the jaunty quality.
> 
> Don't use marcatos here, it'll turn it into "Blah-de blargh blargh, Blah-de blargh."  Another thing I noticed on the recording is that the trumpets play a tiny bit ahead of the beat, and they also make those 16th upbeats _really_ tight and snappy.
> 
> I'm still not 100% satisfied with this but I have work to do so that's it for now




Wow!! That's amazing!!


----------



## cloudesky

NoamL said:


> *Raiders March* is harder than it looks!
> 
> 
> 
> I played it one way and then went to the recording and realized I was all wrong. You really gotta have those sharp attacks otherwise it loses all the jaunty quality.
> 
> Don't use marcatos here, it'll turn it into "Blah-de blargh blargh, Blah-de blargh."  Another thing I noticed on the recording is that the trumpets play a tiny bit ahead of the beat, and they also make those 16th upbeats _really_ tight and snappy.
> 
> I'm still not 100% satisfied with this but I have work to do so that's it for now




Would you mind sharing the midi for this mockup?


----------



## cloudesky

Steve Hicks said:


> with apologies if I have been beaten to it already - a couple of "standards" for ref
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/binary-mp3.17154/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/imperial-march-mp3.17155/][/AUDIOPLUS]




Those are pretty good mockups! Alex has made a wonderful tool for composers.


----------



## Michael Stibor

NoamL said:


> *Raiders March* is harder than it looks!
> 
> 
> 
> I played it one way and then went to the recording and realized I was all wrong. You really gotta have those sharp attacks otherwise it loses all the jaunty quality.
> 
> Don't use marcatos here, it'll turn it into "Blah-de blargh blargh, Blah-de blargh."  Another thing I noticed on the recording is that the trumpets play a tiny bit ahead of the beat, and they also make those 16th upbeats _really_ tight and snappy.
> 
> I'm still not 100% satisfied with this but I have work to do so that's it for now



Oh interesting! I did use marcatos only for the melody. I thought it sounded decent. The poor timing is my own. I did this live except for the quick legato switch for a moment,and I'm not much of a keyboardist. Guitarist by trade.


----------



## cloudesky

Thought I'd upload a little test I did with CSB & CSS. Please note: I'm new to the whole orchestration thing, currently taking an Evenant course, which I'm only 40% complete. So I hope this test does not diminish the beauty of this awesome VST.


----------



## tehreal

NoamL said:


> *Raiders March* is harder than it looks!
> 
> 
> 
> I played it one way and then went to the recording and realized I was all wrong. You really gotta have those sharp attacks otherwise it loses all the jaunty quality.
> 
> Don't use marcatos here, it'll turn it into "Blah-de blargh blargh, Blah-de blargh."  Another thing I noticed on the recording is that the trumpets play a tiny bit ahead of the beat, and they also make those 16th upbeats _really_ tight and snappy.
> 
> I'm still not 100% satisfied with this but I have work to do so that's it for now




Nice use of articulations to gain a realistic performance. The D's (trumpet) at 0:18-00:21 are stifled though and need to have more punch/re-tongue. Is there any way to do that with CSB?


----------



## ZenFaced

Steve Hicks said:


> with apologies if I have been beaten to it already - a couple of "standards" for ref
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/binary-mp3.17154/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/imperial-march-mp3.17155/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Was that CSS and CSB?


----------



## ricoderks

cloudesky said:


> Thought I'd upload a little test I did with CSB & CSS. Please note: I'm new to the whole orchestration thing, currently taking an Evenant course, which I'm only 40% complete. So I hope this test does not diminish the beauty of this awesome VST.



I think the brass players would be dead in the end of that passage


----------



## Saxer

ricoderks said:


> I think the brass players would be dead in the end of that passage


Breathing is overrated.


----------



## Eptesicus

ricoderks said:


> I think the brass players would be dead in the end of that passage



Bumpers ahoy!


----------



## Eptesicus

Ashermusic said:


> Nope it's the default mics, but yes deleting the MIDI ccs is what changed the sound.
> 
> Now you hear CSB followed by Ark followed by Hollywood Brass.




Wow, the clarity of CSB is miles above the others.


----------



## cloudesky

ricoderks said:


> I think the brass players would be dead in the end of that passage




Hahaha..Yes, I didn't allow much room for the brass players to breath. I definitely need to work on realism, but CSB makes it so tempting to push the performance to the max.


----------



## Consona

NoamL said:


> and they also make those 16th upbeats _really_ tight and snappy.


You mean Time Machine Stretch tight and snappy?


----------



## NoamL

mikefrommontreal said:


> Oh interesting! I did use marcatos only for the melody. I thought it sounded decent. The poor timing is my own. I did this live except for the quick legato switch for a moment,and I'm not much of a keyboardist. Guitarist by trade.




It's a good start but the first thing to try is speeding it up to march tempo 132 bpm (after you play it in is fine - I'm no pianist either!!)



Consona said:


> You mean Time Machine Stretch tight and snappy? ￼



I mean make them take less time than a 16th (move them right)



tehreal said:


> The D's (trumpet) at 0:18-00:21 are stifled though and need to have more punch/re-tongue. Is there any way to do that with CSB?



yes, you can have notes be retongued even after a legato transition, and the amount of punch is velocity dependent. It can be up to a full _ff_ staccatissimo. 

Here is a version with more punch (the stacatissimos are forte instead of mf). Also in this one, I have removed the other instruments, reverb, and EQ so you can hear the library out of the box.





cloudesky said:


> Would you mind sharing the midi for this mockup?



Sure it's attached below


----------



## Michael Stibor

NoamL said:


> It's a good start but the first thing to try is speeding it up to march tempo 132 bpm (after you play it in is fine - I'm no pianist either!!)



Thanks, I literally just downloaded the first MIDI version I found, and replaced some of the sounds. So I didn't even think to change it from the default tempo of 120 BPM. Still, I think it's a testament to how easy it is to get great sounds out out of this program.


----------



## JohnBMears

I've just noticed that my velocity-sensitive legato on/off keyswitch isn't working. Anyone have ideas on that?


----------



## Ashermusic

JohnBMears said:


> I've just noticed that my velocity-sensitive legato on/off keyswitch isn't working. Anyone have ideas on that?



It's a different keyswitching note, B1 instead of C0.


----------



## CT

JF said:


> Quick chorale mockup.




It sounds great in this context! Is it just me though, or are the trumpets a little too prominent? Is that the slightly off balancing that I think Noam mentioned earlier?


----------



## NoamL

Eagerly awaiting some "official" word on that but yes in the Indy mockup the trumpets are lowered relative to the tbones.


----------



## Knomes

No one cares about the missing notes in the lower range of the horns?
I think the lowest note should have been B1 instead of E2


----------



## Ashermusic

Knomes said:


> No one cares about the missing notes in the lower range of the horns?
> I think the lowest note should have been B1 instead of E2



And the trumpets only go down to Ab.


----------



## Gingerbread

Just for a fun comparison, here is CineBrass (Core + Pro) applied to NoamL's midi file. Modified it a bit so it would work with CineBrass. Just the brass parts, no strings or perc. All out of the box, no extra EQ or reverb, so the comparison can be more direct.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/raiders_march_cb-mp3.17201/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## clisma

NoamL said:


> Here is a version with more punch (the stacatissimos are forte instead of mf). Also in this one, I have removed the other instruments, reverb, and EQ so you can hear the library out of the box.


Outstanding.


----------



## Knomes

I just made a chart with the orchestral range from Adler 3 ed. and CSB.
Now, I really like this library but these reduced orchestral ranges are a bit annoying to me.
(I hope that I did not make errors)


----------



## NoamL

Gingerbread said:


> Just for a fun comparison, here is CineBrass (Core + Pro) applied to NoamL's midi file. Modified it a bit so it would work with CineBrass. Just the brass parts, no strings or perc. All out of the box, no extra EQ or reverb, so the comparison can be more direct.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/raiders_march_cb-mp3.17201/][/AUDIOPLUS]



It was doing so nicely until those slurs at the end....


----------



## JF

Is there anyway to create (fake) greater range via kontakt?


----------



## MA-Simon

JF said:


> Is there anyway to create (fake) greater range via kontakt?


You could try pitching the instrument a few notes and then chaning the midi-transition back down:





If you need the full range back, try duplicating the instrument, set it to the same channel and then edit the usable keyranges for both patches so they don't overlap. Unfortunally that might kill all keyswitches and the legato transitions between the 2 instances.


----------



## JF

MA-Simon said:


> You could try pitching the instrument a few notes and then chaning the midi-transition back down:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you need the full range back, try duplicating the instrument, set it to the same channel and then edit the usable keyranges for both patches so they don't overlap. Unfortunally that might kill all keyswitches and the legato transitions between the 2 instances.


Simon,

Thanks so much!


----------



## Robert Casal

Hi all. I'm a long time lurker and wanted to post a quick rendition of the brass chorale from Hymn to the Fallen. It still needs some programming work, but I'm heading out on vacation and ran out of time! I hope, however, that this little snippet can show those on the fence the potential of this library.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/csb-test-hymn-to-the-fallen-mp3.17211/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## axb312

Ashermusic said:


> Nope it's the default mics, but yes deleting the MIDI ccs is what changed the sound.
> 
> Now you hear CSB followed by Ark followed by Hollywood Brass.



I think CSB sounds best here.


----------



## clisma

And for another comparison, here's the positively ancient Sonic Implants Brass. Because... just for kicks.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/raiders-march-si-brass-mp3.17212/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## JohnBMears

Ashermusic said:


> It's a different keyswitching note, B1 instead of C0.



AHA Bb! Thanks Jay!


----------



## Jdiggity1

Robert Casal said:


> Hi all. I'm a long time lurker and wanted to post a quick rendition of the brass chorale from Hymn to the Fallen. It still needs some programming work, but I'm heading out on vacation and ran out of time! I hope, however, that this little snippet can show those on the fence the potential of this library.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/csb-test-hymn-to-the-fallen-mp3.17211/][/AUDIOPLUS]


Funny, I recently mocked this up with EW Hollywood Orchestra and was looking forward to replacing the brass with CSB to see how it fared. The trumpets are clearly going to be an upgrade.

You should definitely revisit your mockup when you're back from vacation. Really try to match the recording, you'll get a lot out of it!


----------



## JohnG

Knomes said:


> I just made a chart with the orchestral range from Adler 3 ed. and CSB.
> Now, I really like this library but these reduced orchestral ranges are a bit annoying to me.
> (I hope that I did not make errors)


That's a really weird range for tenor trombone (or any trombone). The highest note I've ever seen notated is C in the middle of the treble staff.

In fact, a number of those ranges look a bit odd.


----------



## CT

Robert Casal said:


> Hi all. I'm a long time lurker and wanted to post a quick rendition of the brass chorale from Hymn to the Fallen. It still needs some programming work, but I'm heading out on vacation and ran out of time! I hope, however, that this little snippet can show those on the fence the potential of this library.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/csb-test-hymn-to-the-fallen-mp3.17211/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Sounds awesome!


----------



## JohnBMears

miket said:


> Sounds awesome!



Does this utilize the sustain pedal-repeated note ability in CSB? IMO it is ever BETTER than the same in CSS.


----------



## Ashermusic

JohnBMears said:


> AHA Bb! Thanks Jay!


 Oops yes, Bb1.


----------



## LamaRose

Robert Casal said:


> Hi all. I'm a long time lurker and wanted to post a quick rendition of the brass chorale from Hymn to the Fallen.



That room has some palpable life to it... can hardly wait to beam back down and get my mitts on this lib! :emoji_alien:


----------



## jbuhler

JohnG said:


> That's a really weird range for tenor trombone (or any trombone). The highest note I've ever seen notated is C in the middle of the treble staff.
> 
> In fact, a number of those ranges look a bit odd.


I’m pretty sure the Bolero solo goes higher than that C.


----------



## Symfoniq

Robert Casal said:


> Hi all. I'm a long time lurker and wanted to post a quick rendition of the brass chorale from Hymn to the Fallen. It still needs some programming work, but I'm heading out on vacation and ran out of time! I hope, however, that this little snippet can show those on the fence the potential of this library.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/csb-test-hymn-to-the-fallen-mp3.17211/][/AUDIOPLUS]



With the caveat that I’m not in front of my studio monitors right now, this sounded really darn good.


----------



## JohnG

jbuhler said:


> I’m pretty sure the Bolero solo goes higher than that C.



You're right, it does, but in over 20 years I've never seen anyone write up there (above C-natural) for studio players.


----------



## neblix

I'm always a huge fan of Alex Wallbank and this library does not disappoint, and lived up to the other ones in the series. Great sound, easy to use, and doesn't consume half of my sample drive.


----------



## cloudesky

NoamL said:


> It's a good start but the first thing to try is speeding it up to march tempo 132 bpm (after you play it in is fine - I'm no pianist either!!)
> 
> 
> 
> I mean make them take less time than a 16th (move them right)
> 
> 
> 
> yes, you can have notes be retongued even after a legato transition, and the amount of punch is velocity dependent. It can be up to a full _ff_ staccatissimo.
> 
> Here is a version with more punch (the stacatissimos are forte instead of mf). Also in this one, I have removed the other instruments, reverb, and EQ so you can hear the library out of the box.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure it's attached below




Thanks NoamL!


----------



## I like music

All I'm "missing" now is that 2nd horn. I tried the transport trick but completely lost myself when trying to pitch the MIDI stuff in Cubase. Seems like I could only actually _transpose_ the piano roll data up or down (so that if you transcribed the midi data onto score, you'd have one horn playing a tone up)


----------



## Steve Hicks

ZenFaced said:


> Was that CSS and CSB?



Hey - yep, CSS (with CSSS 1st chairs) CSB, cinewinds, spitfire harp and perc


----------



## Nite Sun

I like music said:


> All I'm "missing" now is that 2nd horn. I tried the transport trick but completely lost myself when trying to pitch the MIDI stuff in Cubase. Seems like I could only actually _transpose_ the piano roll data up or down (so that if you transcribed the midi data onto score, you'd have one horn playing a tone up)



You can do this using a 'midi modifier' in Cubase. Google that and you'll find your way.


----------



## I like music

Nite Sun said:


> You can do this using a 'midi modifier' in Cubase. Google that and you'll find your way.



Got it, thank you! Will do so!


----------



## Rodney Money

JohnBMears said:


> @Rodney Money I cannot remember if you have Berlin Brass (which would fit your posted examples of low dynamics with a soft timbre) but let me vouch for CSB, it is insanely good and I promise you'll love it. I seem to remember you have CSS, so it'll be right at home. Go for it when you can!





N.Caffrey said:


> @trumpoz and @Rodney Money what do you guys think of the library?


What do I think of the library? I want it. I am one of those strange people who actually likes CineStrings Core, I know it has a lot of other fans also, it really has a strong sound that blends well with brass especially, and I love its harmonics, but when it comes to flowing lyrical lines and warmth CSS certainly filled in the gaps where CS left behind. Here's an example where I used CineStrings and CSS mixed with CineBrass.

I believe CSB could do the same with CineBrass adding detail, and I can already hear in my head a difference the library can make in some of my current mock-ups.


----------



## ZenFaced

Steve Hicks said:


> Hey - yep, CSS (with CSSS 1st chairs) CSB, cinewinds, spitfire harp and perc


 
Sounds great! When I first heard it on my laptop speakers (volume was low) I thought it was the original soundtrack. Nice job!


----------



## Steve Hicks

ZenFaced said:


> Sounds great! When I first heard it on my laptop speakers (volume was low) I thought it was the original soundtrack. Nice job!



Thanks  I thought I’d try the dryest possible demo to see what it could do and the original Star Wars and Empire in Anvil Studios are super dry. 

Just waiting on CSW and CSP now...... although cinewinds works quite well for now

Actually, off topic but relevant - you know what would be great? - Cinematic Studio Harp. Just basics and gliss. The piano is ace.


----------



## Leonard Wolf

Steve Hicks said:


> Actually, off topic but relevant - you know what would be great? - Cinematic Studio Harp. Just basics and gliss. The piano is ace.



Sounds great, but if we talk about expanding Alex's palette, I imagine Cinematic Studio Choir. It would be a must have for me at least! With this quality what Alex produces is so fantastic, that choir would be the best on the market, I guess!


----------



## Andrew0568

Just picked this up last night--sounds amazing! Has anyone else noticed it's a little CPU-heavy though? With one instance playing the full ensemble I'm getting a fair amount of pops and clicks I don't get from Orchestral Tools, Spitfire, and my other libraries


----------



## JohnBMears

Andrew0568 said:


> Just picked this up last night--sounds amazing! Has anyone else noticed it's a little CPU-heavy though? With one instance playing the full ensemble I'm getting a fair amount of pops and clicks I don't get from Orchestral Tools, Spitfire, and my other libraries



I noticed that last night with the Full Ens patch. But not seeing the same in regular patches. I never noticed that problem in Full Ens of CSS though....


----------



## Andrew0568

JohnBMears said:


> I noticed that last night with the Full Ens patch. But not seeing the same in regular patches. I never noticed that problem in Full Ens of CSS though....



Yeah, same here. Maybe an optimization update in the future can tweak it


----------



## Jdiggity1

Andrew0568 said:


> Just picked this up last night--sounds amazing! Has anyone else noticed it's a little CPU-heavy though? With one instance playing the full ensemble I'm getting a fair amount of pops and clicks I don't get from Orchestral Tools, Spitfire, and my other libraries


Yeah.. the full ensemble is essentially like triggering a multi of all the instruments at once. Very easy to reach high voice counts doing that.
I'd love to see a Lite patch in an update if possible, since to me, the whole point of using full ensemble patches is to be lighter on resources.


----------



## Ashermusic

Knomes said:


> I just made a chart with the orchestral range from Adler 3 ed. and CSB.
> Now, I really like this library but these reduced orchestral ranges are a bit annoying to me.
> (I hope that I did not make errors)



Turns out, this library has a C trumpet, not Bb.


----------



## Knomes

Ashermusic said:


> Turns out, this library has a C trumpet, not Bb.



I will correct the chart later, thank you!


----------



## axb312

Jdiggity1 said:


> Yeah.. the full ensemble is essentially like triggering a multi of all the instruments at once. Very easy to reach high voice counts doing that.
> I'd love to see a Lite patch in an update if possible, since to me, the whole point of using full ensemble patches is to be lighter on resources.



@Alex W I would love to see this too.


----------



## axb312

Not my video. Just thought this is worth sharing.


----------



## Brendon Williams

I started working on a mockup of Asteroid Field (by John Williams) last week but got too busy with work to finish it. Here's the work-in-progress version with CSB, all other instruments muted. I used the mixed mic and added a little reverb. 
Everything up to 2:38 is done other than some tweaking I'll inevitably end up doing, then I haven't done anything after that other than the final horn melody near the end.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k91yimwwzpdb4mu/BW Asteroid Field Mockup 2018 - WIP CSB.mp3?dl=0

Normally I don't share WIP stuff like this, but someone else asked me to share this with him, so I thought anyone else considering getting CSB before the holidays might be curious to hear how it does for this kind of writing. Personally, I'm very happy with it and have already made this my new go-to library for brass. This is the first library I've owned that can pull off those fast 16ths and tight shorts in the trombones in particular. I love the dynamic range, and the super-smooth dynamic transitions, the consistency between sections, the beautiful legato, and the tight short articulations.


----------



## Saxer

Brendon Williams said:


> Normally I don't share WIP stuff like this...


Thanks for sharing the WIP this time! Sounds really good!


----------



## Architekton

@Brendon, that sounds great


----------



## Brendon Williams

Saxer said:


> Thanks for sharing the WIP this time! Sounds really good!





Architekton said:


> @Brendon, that sounds great


Cheers, thanks! It's not hard to make CSB sound good.  I'll post the full mockup here once I get the chance to finish it.


----------



## kevthurman

Wow. Honestly, they did a great job with the library. I have scoured the internet for brass mockups that made me feel anything but "oh that sounded really synthy to me" and I think CSB is the first one I've heard and actually been able to enjoy the MUSIC itself. Can't wait to get a new workhorse to replace east west, the low brass there is just so anemic. Every new mockup I hear makes it harder and harder to hold off for MSB demos...


----------



## Robert Casal

I had some more time to revise/program Hymn to the Fallen. So here's a second run through, along with a quick excerpt from Adventures on Earth (with CSS and CSSS). Been having a lot of fun with this library as I learn it. Can't wait to apply it to my own original music!

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/csb-test-et-mp3.17291/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/csb-test-hymn-to-the-fallen-2-mp3.17292/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Robert Casal

JohnBMears said:


> Does this utilize the sustain pedal-repeated note ability in CSB? IMO it is ever BETTER than the same in CSS.



I forgot all about that. Thanks! In the second version, I used the sustain pedal to help with repeated notes.


----------



## Hanu_H

Brendon Williams said:


> I started working on a mockup of Asteroid Field (by John Williams) last week but got too busy with work to finish it. Here's the work-in-progress version with CSB, all other instruments muted. I used the mixed mic and added a little reverb.
> Everything up to 2:38 is done other than some tweaking I'll inevitably end up doing, then I haven't done anything after that other than the final horn melody near the end.
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/k91yimwwzpdb4mu/BW Asteroid Field Mockup 2018 - WIP CSB.mp3?dl=0
> 
> Normally I don't share WIP stuff like this, but someone else asked me to share this with him, so I thought anyone else considering getting CSB before the holidays might be curious to hear how it does for this kind of writing. Personally, I'm very happy with it and have already made this my new go-to library for brass. This is the first library I've owned that can pull off those fast 16ths and tight shorts in the trombones in particular. I love the dynamic range, and the super-smooth dynamic transitions, the consistency between sections, the beautiful legato, and the tight short articulations.


It sound amazing in the part starting at 2:12. Wow!

-Hannes


----------



## maestro2be

Brendon, that demo sounds fantastic. I am comparing it to several brass orchestra recordings and it sounds very close to the real thing. I could probably be fooled by it if no one said anything honestly.

Very impressive work. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## NoamL

Robert Casal said:


> I had some more time to revise/program Hymn to the Fallen. So here's a second run through, along with a quick excerpt from Adventures on Earth (with CSS and CSSS). Been having a lot of fun with this library as I learn it. Can't wait to apply it to my own original music!
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/csb-test-et-mp3.17291/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/csb-test-hymn-to-the-fallen-2-mp3.17292/][/AUDIOPLUS]



ET excerpt sounds tremendous! I adore the legatos in this library. Just need to add a bit of tempo modulation (_stringendo_) and it really would sound quite real.


----------



## calebfaith

This is the first brass library I've felt can actually attempt Star Wars styled brass. The shorts are so deliciously punchy!


----------



## ag75

Robert Casal said:


> I had some more time to revise/program Hymn to the Fallen. So here's a second run through, along with a quick excerpt from Adventures on Earth (with CSS and CSSS). Been having a lot of fun with this library as I learn it. Can't wait to apply it to my own original music!
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/csb-test-et-mp3.17291/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/csb-test-hymn-to-the-fallen-2-mp3.17292/][/AUDIOPLUS]


Can I ask what reverb you are using on these? Sound great!


----------



## ionian

Robert Casal said:


> I had some more time to revise/program Hymn to the Fallen. So here's a second run through, along with a quick excerpt from Adventures on Earth (with CSS and CSSS). Been having a lot of fun with this library as I learn it. Can't wait to apply it to my own original music!
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/csb-test-et-mp3.17291/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/csb-test-hymn-to-the-fallen-2-mp3.17292/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Sounds great! Adventures on Earth is one of my favorite pieces on the planet. I got to guest conduct the Brooklyn Symphony a few years ago and I was adamant that I was doing "Adventures on Earth" which got a bit of a push back because they're primarily a classical orchestra - they never did any pops before. But I kept pushing and they relented and decided to have a whole JW pops concert instead and they did Close Encounters, Star Wars, etc.

But yeah, I know that piece up, down, backwards and sideways! I still have my giant score book that's marked to the hilt with pencil from all the sectionals. Your demo sounded pretty awesome! It was just anti-climatic that you cut it right before the big trumpet announcement! hahaa I have a coupon for a loyalty upgrade. I was hoping to sit on it until after New Years but I have an emotional connection to Adventures on Earth...you're messing up my plans here!


----------



## calebfaith

I just did a quick and dirty mockup of the first few bars of Flag Parade from Star Wars The Phantom Menace to test out the library. It handles the fast trumpets surprisingly well.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/flag-parade-mp3.17296/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## eli0s

calebfaith said:


> I just did a quick and dirty mockup of the first few bars of Flag Parade from Star Wars The Phantom Menace to test out the library. It handles the fast trumpets surprisingly well.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/flag-parade-mp3.17296/][/AUDIOPLUS]


Very nice!! Well done! But what is this "gate" like artifact at the end of the track?


----------



## Gzu

Robert Casal said:


> I had some more time to revise/program Hymn to the Fallen. So here's a second run through, along with a quick excerpt from Adventures on Earth (with CSS and CSSS). Been having a lot of fun with this library as I learn it. Can't wait to apply it to my own original music!
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/csb-test-et-mp3.17291/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/csb-test-hymn-to-the-fallen-2-mp3.17292/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Hym to the fallen...amazing!! Very good!


----------



## calebfaith

eli0s said:


> Very nice!! Well done! But what is this "gate" like artifact at the end of the track?



That's a good question. I just chucked a simple Ozone preset on there so it's probably the limiter (maximiser)


----------



## leon chevalier

calebfaith said:


> I just did a quick and dirty mockup of the first few bars of Flag Parade from Star Wars The Phantom Menace to test out the library. It handles the fast trumpets surprisingly well.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/flag-parade-mp3.17296/][/AUDIOPLUS]


Nice


----------



## galactic orange

These tracks sound wonderful. Thanks to everyone posting demos here. I’d like to know what mic positions you are using (aware that some external reverb has been used on some of these). I’d just like to better understand if I’m hearing close plus reverb or just a Room mic, etc.


----------



## I like music

ionian said:


> Sounds great! Adventures on Earth is one of my favorite pieces on the planet. I got to guest conduct the Brooklyn Symphony a few years ago and I was adamant that I was doing "Adventures on Earth" which got a bit of a push back because they're primarily a classical orchestra - they never did any pops before. But I kept pushing and they relented and decided to have a whole JW pops concert instead and they did Close Encounters, Star Wars, etc.
> 
> But yeah, I know that piece up, down, backwards and sideways! I still have my giant score book that's marked to the hilt with pencil from all the sectionals. Your demo sounded pretty awesome! It was just anti-climatic that you cut it right before the big trumpet announcement! hahaa I have a coupon for a loyalty upgrade. I was hoping to sit on it until after New Years but I have an emotional connection to Adventures on Earth...you're messing up my plans here!



You tried the rising strings part with CSS yet? I felt they did a fricking great job on that, when mocking them up.


----------



## jadedsean

calebfaith said:


> I just did a quick and dirty mockup of the first few bars of Flag Parade from Star Wars The Phantom Menace to test out the library. It handles the fast trumpets surprisingly well.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/flag-parade-mp3.17296/][/AUDIOPLUS]


Wow sounds great, i'm definitely buying this now. Did you manage to create a script for Reaper with the different delay times for CSB Caleb?


----------



## kevthurman

How well do you think CSB could handle some exposed brass like this? Exposed brass moments are some of the toughest things to get right with samples.


----------



## HelixK

You are all making it very difficult for me to wait for MSB...

At least the CSB deal won't expire. Alex is the man!


----------



## muziksculp

HelixK said:


> You are all making it very difficult for me to wait for MSB...



Maybe I missed this, what's MSB ?


----------



## HelixK

muziksculp said:


> Maybe I missed this, what's MSB ?


https://vi-control.net/community/threads/audiobro-modern-scoring-brass-msb.76944/


----------



## muziksculp

HelixK said:


> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/audiobro-modern-scoring-brass-msb.76944/



Thanks. 

Any release date announcement for Audiobro's _MSB_ ?

I'm also looking forward to their _LASS 3_ Release next year. 

I haven't purchased _CSB_ yet, but I think it might just be wise to buy CSB regardless of what's coming later. It should be a solid, and very useful brass library to have, especially I get it at discounted price.


----------



## HelixK

muziksculp said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Any release date announcement for Audiobro's _MSB_ ?
> 
> I'm also looking forward to their _LASS 3_ Release next year.
> 
> I haven't purchased _CSB_ yet, but I think it might just be wise to buy CSB regardless of what's coming later. It should be a solid, and very useful brass library to have, especially I get it at discounted price.



A friend contacted their support and was told they would continue to release details (including price, demos and videos) in the next months, as they approach release.

If only I could justify buying all the new brass but the truth is that I already have some many libraries sitting in my hard disk that the only reason I'd get another one is if it was something truly innovative. I have high hopes for MSB but in case it turns out to be a stinker, I can always buy CSB for $279.


----------



## ionian

I like music said:


> You tried the rising strings part with CSS yet? I felt they did a fricking great job on that, when mocking them up.



No, but I'm going to give it a run through after I get CSB. I have the score sitting on my shelf and I'm going to go pull it down.


----------



## I like music

ionian said:


> No, but I'm going to give it a run through after I get CSB. I have the score sitting on my shelf and I'm going to go pull it down.



If you get around to it, please do post it!


----------



## Robert Casal

ag75 said:


> Can I ask what reverb you are using on these? Sound great!



Thanks! I used QL Spaces, Burbank Scoring Stage Large ST FR 2.1s for both demos.


----------



## Robert Casal

ionian said:


> Sounds great! Adventures on Earth is one of my favorite pieces on the planet. I got to guest conduct the Brooklyn Symphony a few years ago and I was adamant that I was doing "Adventures on Earth" which got a bit of a push back because they're primarily a classical orchestra - they never did any pops before. But I kept pushing and they relented and decided to have a whole JW pops concert instead and they did Close Encounters, Star Wars, etc.
> 
> But yeah, I know that piece up, down, backwards and sideways! I still have my giant score book that's marked to the hilt with pencil from all the sectionals. Your demo sounded pretty awesome! It was just anti-climatic that you cut it right before the big trumpet announcement! hahaa I have a coupon for a loyalty upgrade. I was hoping to sit on it until after New Years but I have an emotional connection to Adventures on Earth...you're messing up my plans here!



So amazing you got to conduct Adventures on Earth! It's a top 10 cue for me, and one of the ones that got me into film music in the first place. Hearing it live is always a joy.


----------



## erikradbo

How's the legato in CSB? Similar to CSS, or less issue with the delay?


----------



## Brendon Williams

maestro2be said:


> Brendon, that demo sounds fantastic. I am comparing it to several brass orchestra recordings and it sounds very close to the real thing. I could probably be fooled by it if no one said anything honestly.
> 
> Very impressive work. Thanks for sharing.



Cheers, thanks! I appreciate it. Looking forward to getting the time to finish the complete mockup.


----------



## calebfaith

jadedsean said:


> Wow sounds great, i'm definitely buying this now. Did you manage to create a script for Reaper with the different delay times for CSB Caleb?



I haven't yet, but I will be today. 

I'm still working on a VST based solution which automatically does it as well if you haven't seen my other thread from a few weeks ago?


----------



## Consona

calebfaith said:


> I just did a quick and dirty mockup of the first few bars of Flag Parade from Star Wars The Phantom Menace to test out the library. It handles the fast trumpets surprisingly well.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/flag-parade-mp3.17296/][/AUDIOPLUS]


:emoji_astonished: This sounds like the real thing. 

I'm really curious how would SStB sound playing this.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

erikradbo said:


> How's the legato in CSB? Similar to CSS, or less issue with the delay?


 
There are no issues with CSS delay.


----------



## jadedsean

calebfaith said:


> I haven't yet, but I will be today.
> 
> I'm still working on a VST based solution which automatically does it as well if you haven't seen my other thread from a few weeks ago?


I haven't seen it, could you link the thread please? Really looking forward to using this library.
Cheers msn


----------



## calebfaith

jadedsean said:


> I haven't seen it, could you link the thread please? Really looking forward to using this library.
> Cheers msn



https://vi-control.net/community/th...css-vst-au-delay-compensation-solution.77393/

Nothing is released yet (still has some bugs) but all you have to do is add it to a track and it takes care of everything else.


----------



## kevthurman

erikradbo said:


> How's the legato in CSB? Similar to CSS, or less issue with the delay?



The delay in CSS is what makes it the best legato string library...


----------



## jadedsean

calebfaith said:


> https://vi-control.net/community/th...css-vst-au-delay-compensation-solution.77393/
> 
> Nothing is released yet (still has some bugs) but all you have to do is add it to a track and it takes care of everything else.


Sounds great dude. Looking forward to it.


----------



## kevthurman

How good are the trombones when exposed and low in dynamic on CSB? Seems like a lot of trombone VSTs neglect quiet low brass. Something like this for example:


----------



## JohnBMears

kevthurman said:


> How good are the trombones when exposed and low in dynamic on CSB? Seems like a lot of trombone VSTs neglect quiet low brass. Something like this for example:




I find the Trombones to have a great soft layer to them, much like Berlin Brass (which is a favorite part of the library for me).


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

kevthurman said:


> The delay in CSS is what makes it the best legato string library...


It does, but requires a bit of extra work. I'm wondering if it's the same with CSB in terms of the extra work required.


----------



## erikradbo

kevthurman said:


> The delay in CSS is what makes it the best legato string library...





Jimmy Hellfire said:


> There are no issues with CSS delay.



Thank you for sharing your opinions. Does anyone know regarding csb?


----------



## Mars

In my opinion, the delay feels natural and legato patches are really playable out of the box, but... It's technically a bit more complicated than CSS it seems  
There are 2 different delay per instrument (medium and fast legato), but the delay may change from an instrument to another. From the manual : 
"Medium has the most delay, (approx. 230ms for trombones, horns and tuba, 180ms
for trumpets), while fast has a smaller delay - approximately 100ms. However, the
amount of delay varies with each instrument, and we did this on purpose in order to
better accommodate the way the instrument itself functions. For example, the
trombone can’t move from one note to the next as quickly as a trumpet, and so this is
reflected in the feel of the legato."


----------



## erikradbo

Mars said:


> In my opinion, the delay feels natural and legato patches are really playable out of the box, but... It's technically a bit more complicated than CSS it seems
> There are 2 different delay per instrument (medium and fast legato), but the delay may change from an instrument to another. From the manual :
> "Medium has the most delay, (approx. 230ms for trombones, horns and tuba, 180ms
> for trumpets), while fast has a smaller delay - approximately 100ms. However, the
> amount of delay varies with each instrument, and we did this on purpose in order to
> better accommodate the way the instrument itself functions. For example, the
> trombone can’t move from one note to the next as quickly as a trumpet, and so this is
> reflected in the feel of the legato."



Thanks. Seems manageable if one is used to css like myself. I like the css legato results, but still wish it'd be less delayed, but with the new scripts coming up (thanks @NoamL) it's quite easy to use the sustain patch and then switch to legato when everything is recorded.


----------



## Steve Hicks

As much as I am *really *loving the "this actually manages old school williams" vibe, here are two very short more contemporary (but still orchestral) cues

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/hope-mp3.17324/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/kingsman-csb-mp3.17325/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/hope-mp3.17324/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/kingsman-csb-mp3.17325/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Steve Hicks

Steve Hicks said:


> As much as I am *really *loving the "this actually manages old school williams" vibe, here are two very short more contemporary (but still orchestral) cues
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/hope-mp3.17324/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/kingsman-csb-mp3.17325/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Oh

CSB (ofc)
CSS
Hollywood Choirs
SF Harp
SF Perc (Jodie Talbot + HZ)
Cínewind for the cheeky 1 flute


----------



## prodigalson

Steve Hicks said:


> Oh
> 
> CSB (ofc)
> CSS
> Hollywood Choirs
> SF Harp
> SF Perc (Jodie Talbot + HZ)
> Cínewind for the cheeky 1 flute



Jodie Talbot has a percussion library?!?


----------



## Steve Hicks

prodigalson said:


> Jodie Talbot has a percussion library?!?


Sorry - total end of year brain failure. Ofc I meant Joby Burgess


----------



## kevthurman

JohnBMears said:


> I find the Trombones to have a great soft layer to them, much like Berlin Brass (which is a favorite part of the library for me).



Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised. This is the main reason Im debating between this library and BB. Thanks for posting!


----------



## marclawsonmusic

Brendon Williams said:


> I started working on a mockup of Asteroid Field (by John Williams) last week but got too busy with work to finish it. Here's the work-in-progress version with CSB, all other instruments muted. I used the mixed mic and added a little reverb.
> Everything up to 2:38 is done other than some tweaking I'll inevitably end up doing, then I haven't done anything after that other than the final horn melody near the end.
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/k91yimwwzpdb4mu/BW Asteroid Field Mockup 2018 - WIP CSB.mp3?dl=0



I wanted to add my 'wow' to this. Great job, Brendon! Exercises like this sell the library more than any demo.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

Steve Hicks said:


> As much as I am *really *loving the "this actually manages old school williams" vibe, here are two very short more contemporary (but still orchestral) cues


Wow, these are great too. Great work!


----------



## muziksculp

What about Spitfire's Studio Brass vs CSB ? Any feedback on this would be interesting.


----------



## ricoderks

For the ones who are still in doubt: You really won't regret buying it.
Small sample with CSB, CSS, CSSS, True Stike, Hollywood woodwinds and a bit of Angry Brass.
Reverb is from B2 Dual Hall or something like that.


----------



## JohnBMears

ricoderks said:


> For the ones who are still in doubt: You really won't regret buying it.
> Small sample with CSB, CSS, CSSS, True Stike, Hollywood woodwinds and a bit of Angry Brass.
> Reverb is from B2 Dual Hall or something like that.




Killer work! Are you still using an EQ on CSS to make them a bit more shiny? (you had a FabFilter setting a while back that was matching it to HWS).


----------



## ricoderks

JohnBMears said:


> Killer work! Are you still using an EQ on CSS to make them a bit more shiny? (you had a FabFilter setting a while back that was matching it to HWS).


Hi John!
No i did not use a boost. I did use a low cut on the basses because the orchestra will be layered on top of a electronic track. Forgot to mention i used orchestral string runs too! I think that is the shimmer you hear + reverb.

Cheers!


----------



## cloudesky

ricoderks said:


> For the ones who are still in doubt: You really won't regret buying it.
> Small sample with CSB, CSS, CSSS, True Stike, Hollywood woodwinds and a bit of Angry Brass.
> Reverb is from B2 Dual Hall or something like that.



That sounds awesome!!!


----------



## I like music

ricoderks said:


> Hi John!
> No i did not use a boost. I did use a low cut on the basses because the orchestra will be layered on top of a electronic track. Forgot to mention i used orchestral string runs too! I think that is the shimmer you hear + reverb.
> 
> Cheers!



This sounds amazing. Regarding String Runs, do they have a transitions patch? Kind of how they do with their woodwinds library? I've purchased the library but won't get a chance to test it until the new year. Work unfortunately.


----------



## Casiquire

ricoderks said:


> For the ones who are still in doubt: You really won't regret buying it.
> Small sample with CSB, CSS, CSSS, True Stike, Hollywood woodwinds and a bit of Angry Brass.
> Reverb is from B2 Dual Hall or something like that.




Fantastic!!

I...I want to hear the whole thing lol


----------



## N.Caffrey

ricoderks said:


> For the ones who are still in doubt: You really won't regret buying it.
> Small sample with CSB, CSS, CSSS, True Stike, Hollywood woodwinds and a bit of Angry Brass.
> Reverb is from B2 Dual Hall or something like that.



Love it!


----------



## ricoderks

I like music said:


> This sounds amazing. Regarding String Runs, do they have a transitions patch? Kind of how they do with their woodwinds library? I've purchased the library but won't get a chance to test it until the new year. Work unfortunately.


I dont have the woodwinds from orchestral tools unfortunately. So i cant tell. But for the strings they have pre recorded runs an figures and playable runs patches available.


----------



## N.Caffrey

@ricoderks since I'm eventually planing to get the library, I read other users had some troubles adjusting the volume levels with the strings (some say it was too upfront, or that they had to reduce it a lot). Could you share how you treated the brass to have them so well balanced?


----------



## ricoderks

N.Caffrey said:


> @ricoderks since I'm eventually planing to get the library, I read other users had some troubles adjusting the volume levels with the strings (some say it was too upfront, or that they had to reduce it a lot). Could you share how you treated the brass to have them so well balanced?


Yes sure! I actually just followed the tip from Alex W in one of the video's. He is suggesting that you turn down the master volume in kontakt on the brass. Put it on -8db. And mixed the solo strings a little bit more upfront. Only using the mix mics on all libraries since i did not had enough ram on my laptop unfortunately  i think i turned down the main string library volume to -3db on the master. No trickery next to that volume adjustment.


----------



## cloudesky

Sharing another quick test with CSB and CSS. I'm really loving these libraries.


----------



## tehreal

cloudesky said:


> Sharing another quick test with CSB and CSS. I'm really loving these libraries.




This demo really showcases just how important good legato sampling/programming can be.


----------



## N.Caffrey

ricoderks said:


> Yes sure! I actually just followed the tip from Alex W in one of the video's. He is suggesting that you turn down the master volume in kontakt on the brass. Put it on -8db. And mixed the solo strings a little bit more upfront. Only using the mix mics on all libraries since i did not had enough ram on my laptop unfortunately  i think i turned down the main string library volume to -3db on the master. No trickery next to that volume adjustment.


Thanks!


----------



## MA-Simon

N.Caffrey said:


> I read other users had some troubles adjusting the volume levels with the strings


I mean, honestly. Turn it down, or turn it up. This can not be that complicated. Have never seen this as a problem.


----------



## N.Caffrey

MA-Simon said:


> I mean, honestly. Turn it down, or turn it up. This can not be that complicated. Have never seen this as a problem.


Tell @NoamL that  (he posted some examples where it wasn't straightforward to achieve balance between brass and strings)


----------



## I like music

MA-Simon said:


> I mean, honestly. Turn it down, or turn it up. This can not be that complicated. Have never seen this as a problem.



When they say turn it up, I say "how high?" 

I think for those of us who don't trust their inner sense of orchestral balance (despite working through reference tracks) we sometimes hope someone else can chime in. Or just come around my house and sort he volumes and balance/placement for me when I'm asleep. Now if Santa offered that service on Christmas Eve


----------



## NoamL

N.Caffrey said:


> @ricoderks since I'm eventually planing to get the library, I read other users had some troubles adjusting the volume levels with the strings (some say it was too upfront, or that they had to reduce it a lot). Could you share how you treated the brass to have them so well balanced?





N.Caffrey said:


> Tell @NoamL that  (he posted some examples where it wasn't straightforward to achieve balance between brass and strings)



Hey guys, I'm on a trip to San Francisco, but just wanted to let you know that I corresponded with Alex w on this issue. Will explain fully later but the short version is that the two libraries ARE acoustically balanced out if the box! Sorry for any confusion I caused  again, will give better explanation this evening hehe


----------



## muziksculp

Hi,

Thanks for all the great sounding CSB user demos.

I will be purchasing CSB soon, Oh.. Alex W. mentions in this CSB video (see below) to pull back on the master volume in Kontakt for CSB, Since Brass Instruments are quite loud by nature. This helps balance CSB volumes with CSS.


----------



## JohnBMears

I'd say part of what is bringing up the conversation is the fact of it being described by it's creator as copy/paste-able with midi between sections as well as it being mentioned that you can simultaneously record/control different patches on different tracks. I for one am not sure if any library that is recorded separately can really do that 100%. If 4 horns and 8 celli were in the same room at the same time recording dynamic swells, they would probably play off each other differently than when recorded alone. I remember back when I tried to load the celli and 6 horns from Hollywood Strings/Brass and tried to play it like a multi. At low cc levels the horns were in audible, but then they quickly overpowered the celli halfway up and at the top, the celli were invisible. I think there will always be the need to automate and balance as you program....


----------



## Brian Nowak

Well, I was trying to hold out and see what happened for Spitfire's Christmas sale, but you guys with all your awesome mockups and original pieces were just too much. 

So CSB, here I come!


----------



## jimjazzuk

Hey everyone. Finally got around to installing CSB and I'm getting lots of CPU spikes in Logic Pro X. I have a project which is already running CSS, CSSS and True Strike with ease. Now getting spikes. Any idea what I can change to help this? 
3.2 GHz Intel Core i5

+ 32 GB ram


----------



## marclawsonmusic

jimjazzuk said:


> Hey everyone. Finally got around to installing CSB and I'm getting lots of CPU spikes in Logic Pro X. I have a project which is already running CSS, CSSS and True Strike with ease. Now getting spikes. Any idea what I can change to help this?
> 3.2 GHz Intel Core i5
> 
> + 32 GB ram


When playing back, select an Audio track instead of an Instrument track. This takes your project out of 'Live Mode' and will allow all cores to focus on playback. Google 'Logic Live Mode' for more details.


----------



## Brian Nowak

jimjazzuk said:


> Hey everyone. Finally got around to installing CSB and I'm getting lots of CPU spikes in Logic Pro X. I have a project which is already running CSS, CSSS and True Strike with ease. Now getting spikes. Any idea what I can change to help this?
> 3.2 GHz Intel Core i5
> 
> + 32 GB ram



There are a lot of factors at play here. 

Have you restarted your computer since installing? Every time I download a library and install it onto my SSD, I do my batch resave in kontakt, make sure everything is working properly, and restart my computer. 

If I don't I get very poor cpu behavior in Logic Pro X.


----------



## JohnBMears

jimjazzuk said:


> Hey everyone. Finally got around to installing CSB and I'm getting lots of CPU spikes in Logic Pro X. I have a project which is already running CSS, CSSS and True Strike with ease. Now getting spikes. Any idea what I can change to help this?
> 3.2 GHz Intel Core i5
> 
> + 32 GB ram



I’m getting a little CPU crunch on the CSB ENSEMBLE patch but not on the others.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Lots of great examples here. I know some have asked about fast legatos, so I included some quicker figures. I think what really sets this library apart from my other brass libraries (Hollywood Brass and EWQLSO) is its ability to stand on its own completely exposed. I do miss having control over vibrato from the other CS libraries, but the tone, legato, and room are all exquisite.



I couldn't help myself and decided to compare it with the a2/a4 patches and with HWB. There's always a danger copy and pasting midi data between libraries, and I had to dance a bit with CC11 to get HWB less brash (no fault of that library, just the way the CC data is read), but I think the differences in legato transitions show. It's interesting to note the legato/CC differences between CSB solo and ensemble patches.




Only processing is EW Spaces II (War Memorial FR) and Ozone 8 Maximizer to level the volume a bit between the tracks.

Edit: I really want to stress that this is an unfair demo of HWB. That library can really shine in a lot of contexts, including softer chorale textures (there are other posts that show this around the forum). This was just an experiment to see how easily the MIDI data transfers with minimal tweaking. Answer: not super well.


----------



## Andoran

Duncan Krummel said:


> Lots of great examples here. I know some have asked about fast legatos, so I included some quicker figures. I think what really sets this library apart from my other brass libraries (Hollywood Brass and EWQLSO) is its ability to stand on its own completely exposed. I do miss having control over vibrato from the other CS libraries, but the tone, legato, and room are all exquisite.
> 
> 
> 
> I couldn't help myself and decided to compare it with the a2/a4 patches and with HWB. There's always a danger copy and pasting midi data between libraries, and I had to dance a bit with CC11 to get HWB less brash (no fault of that library, just the way the CC data is read), but I think the differences in legato transitions show. It's interesting to note the legato/CC differences between CSB solo and ensemble patches.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only processing is EW Spaces II (War Memorial FR) and Ozone 8 Maximizer to level the volume a bit between the tracks.



Wow, that's a pretty stark contrast as far as the legato's go, CSB legato is soooo good.


----------



## clisma

Duncan Krummel said:


> Lots of great examples here. I know some have asked about fast legatos, so I included some quicker figures. I think what really sets this library apart from my other brass libraries (Hollywood Brass and EWQLSO) is its ability to stand on its own completely exposed. I do miss having control over vibrato from the other CS libraries, but the tone, legato, and room are all exquisite.
> 
> 
> 
> I couldn't help myself and decided to compare it with the a2/a4 patches and with HWB. There's always a danger copy and pasting midi data between libraries, and I had to dance a bit with CC11 to get HWB less brash (no fault of that library, just the way the CC data is read), but I think the differences in legato transitions show. It's interesting to note the legato/CC differences between CSB solo and ensemble patches.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only processing is EW Spaces II (War Memorial FR) and Ozone 8 Maximizer to level the volume a bit between the tracks.



Lovely writing.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Thank you!

Another thing I toyed with, and used in the previous examples, was simulating a Bb Trumpet with the MIDI Transpose/Tune method used to create chamber ensembles from solo libraries (I think I first saw that posted in a CSSS thread). It works decently well, but there's a bit of a change in the attack of the samples afterwards. This is the default, and then a version with the MIDI mapping shifted up 3 steps, and tuned down 5 (to reach the Bb trumpet's low G):



With a little panning, they work pretty well together:



I did notice that doing this reduces the overall range, strangely enough. I can only guess that it has something to do with the playable key range as Kontakt understands it. Or maybe it's in the whole transposition thing that has my 11pm brain mixed up


----------



## ag75

jimjazzuk said:


> Hey everyone. Finally got around to installing CSB and I'm getting lots of CPU spikes in Logic Pro X. I have a project which is already running CSS, CSSS and True Strike with ease. Now getting spikes. Any idea what I can change to help this?
> 3.2 GHz Intel Core i5
> 
> + 32 GB ram


Are you streaming from an external SSD?


----------



## cloudesky

tehreal said:


> This demo really showcases just how important good legato sampling/programming can be.


Yes, the legato is so smooth.


----------



## MatthieuD

Hello everyone !

It's my first post here in vi-control, but I really wanted to say here that I just bought Alex's last sound library, Cinematic Studio Brass, and since a few days I am really really amazingly pleased by this library ! Very easy to use, already well-balanced between all the articulations and the brass sections themselves, and stuningly realistic I have to admit !
I used Hollywood Brass from EastWest before, but this one is just... wow !!! No need to say that it will become my main library for brass now.
And the different brass sections can be very loud (obvious from the different demos posted here and on the library's website) but very quiet too (they reach the piano/pianissimo with CC1 set to 10 approximately).

Looking forward to reading you (and sorry for the english mistakes, I am french) !

- MatthieuD


(@jimjazzuk Other people have also noticed this (see post # 746 page 38 by
JohnBMears)


----------



## jimjazzuk

@ag75 yes I'm streaming from an external SSD. Strangely it's causing CPU spike even when it's not being played - just having it loaded in Kontakt (doesn't happen when it's removed)


----------



## ricoderks

jimjazzuk said:


> @ag75 yes I'm streaming from an external SSD. Strangely it's causing CPU spike even when it's not being played - just having it loaded in Kontakt (doesn't happen when it's removed)


Can you share your audio setup settings with us? Buffer size from audio interface and buffer size in kontakt? Did you batch resaved the library already?

Cheers


----------



## jimjazzuk

I/O Buffer Size: 512
Recording Delay: -2056 Samples
Processing Threads: 4
Process Buffer Range: Medium
Multithreading: Playback and Live Tracks
Summing: High Precision (64 bit)
ReWire: off


----------



## Brian Nowak

Got my download finished, moved the library to my ssd, batch resaved, and opened up Logic to test. Can't say I'm noticing any cpu/ram spikes at all. Still on Logic 10.3.2.

My very first impressions on the library? It's like the brass version of CSS. Like CSS, upon first glance it can be a bit underwhelming. But the more you futz with it the more you realize how competently it was put together and realistic it can sound.

Aside from the remarkably good legato (which one would expect), articulation switches are incredibly smooth and natural sounding. All articulations go from very quiet to nice and brassy, and overall it just feels streamlined. I am able to shape phrases the way I want, and not feel like I need to go back and cover up the oddities as much as I do with other brass that I have. 

In summary, it sounds very realistic, stands on its own without a bunch of fuss, and the more I put into it, the more I'm already reaping its rewards. And this is just day one...


----------



## N.Caffrey

Don't think I've read/listened anything about the mutes. For the people who have it, how do they sound?


----------



## Brian Nowak

N.Caffrey said:


> Don't think I've read/listened anything about the mutes. For the people who have it, how do they sound?



I mean not bad by any means. Pretty perfunctory. Just the shortest shorts and legato/sustains. I wouldn't write home about them but they certainly function fine.


----------



## kevthurman

Brian Nowak said:


> I mean not bad by any means. Pretty perfunctory. Just the shortest shorts and legato/sustains. I wouldn't write home about them but they certainly function fine.


I thought there was no muted legato. If I'm wrong, then I can't wait to buy it even more!


----------



## Brian Nowak

kevthurman said:


> I thought there was no muted legato. If I'm wrong, then I can't wait to buy it even more!



It's there. I don't think I'd use it a ton, though. It's not THAT great sounding.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

N.Caffrey said:


> Don't think I've read/listened anything about the mutes. For the people who have it, how do they sound?



The a2/a4 mute patches are definitely more playable than the solo instrument mutes. Both lack a legato gauge, so I'm guessing it only uses the fastest transitions. This tends to sound more disjointed at slower tempos. The mute shorts I noticed have what sounds like the releases cut a bit short. So there's a sucking effect if they're exposed. In a mix, I'm sure they'd work just fine.


----------



## N.Caffrey

Duncan Krummel said:


> The a2/a4 mute patches are definitely more playable than the solo instrument mutes. Both lack a legato gauge, so I'm guessing it only uses the fastest transitions. This tends to sound more disjointed at slower tempos. The mute shorts I noticed have what sounds like the releases cut a bit short. So there's a sucking effect if they're exposed. In a mix, I'm sure they'd work just fine.



Thank you. If you have time maybe one of these days could you post a short snippet?


----------



## NoamL

Hey all, ok so this is what happened regarding *CSS/CSB Volume*. I emailed Alex W to say that I had been trying to set up a template in imitation of some natural-sounding orchestral scores, particularly Silvestri's _Captain America_, and found that CSB was balanced at about -6 to -10 quieter than CSS, but I couldn't nail the exact value, so I asked him what the value should "officially" be.

I don't want to reproduce the email but Alex explained the following -

1. The libraries are *100% accurate out of the box. *(and with how diligently and accurately everything else about these two libraries is programmed, I believe him!!). The brass simply are "that loud" in the room, and going into each set of mics. A really ripping sound!

2. In the CSB walkthrough video, Alex decreased the* master Kontakt volume -9dB* to avoid clipping of multiple instances of CSB, but this was _not_ to balance CSB against CSS; both libraries should be reduced by the *same amount* if you're going to touch the master Kontakt volume.

3. "Correct" orchestration will take into account that the brass will be louder at the same written dynamic (ff trumpets will blow away ff strings). The top 20% of the modwheel for the brass should be used sparingly and deliberately.

4. (the key point) *even though scores by Williams and Silvestri sound natural, they are still using the close mics* to bring out the definition of the strings when that's needed. (I asked some other folks and they confirmed this.) This means that these film score recordings are not really accurate "Decca tree perspectives" of the orchestra, and that's why when balancing I was discovering different values from CSS/CSB out of the box. In real life, when the brass and strings are "striped" the engineer can do whatever with the two separate recordings. When the orchestra is recorded together (as in every JW score, as far as I'm aware), there will necessarily be "bleed" from all sections of the orchestra into the hall mics. But the engineer can still raise the strings against the brass & percussion by using the strings' close and section mics. A virtual emulation of this would involve keeping the Room mics at the same level for both CSS+CSB, while raising the Close and even Main mics of the strings.

So that's that  I'm gonna try the "close mic" technique while keeping the room mics level, and being very careful with the modwheel!


----------



## Brian Nowak

Duncan Krummel said:


> The a2/a4 mute patches are definitely more playable than the solo instrument mutes. Both lack a legato gauge, so I'm guessing it only uses the fastest transitions. This tends to sound more disjointed at slower tempos. The mute shorts I noticed have what sounds like the releases cut a bit short. So there's a sucking effect if they're exposed. In a mix, I'm sure they'd work just fine.



You will note that the "repetition" short also has a bit of an odd cutoff as well. This is easily remedied by using a touch of external reverb, however. And since I'm a reverb nutjob... well...


----------



## Tekkera

So you all made a big deal about nothing this entire time


----------



## cloudesky

NoamL said:


> Hey all, ok so this is what happened regarding *CSS/CSB Volume*. I emailed Alex W to say that I had been trying to set up a template in imitation of some natural-sounding orchestral scores, particularly Silvestri's _Captain America_, and found that CSB was balanced at about -6 to -10 quieter than CSS, but I couldn't nail the exact value, so I asked him what the value should "officially" be.
> 
> I don't want to reproduce the email but Alex explained the following -
> 
> 1. The libraries are *100% accurate out of the box. *(and with how diligently and accurately everything else about these two libraries is programmed, I believe him!!). The brass simply are "that loud" in the room, and going into each set of mics. A really ripping sound!
> 
> 2. In the CSB walkthrough video, Alex decreased the* master Kontakt volume -9dB* to avoid clipping of multiple instances of CSB, but this was _not_ to balance CSB against CSS; both libraries should be reduced by the *same amount* if you're going to touch the master Kontakt volume.
> 
> 3. "Correct" orchestration will take into account that the brass will be louder at the same written dynamic (ff trumpets will blow away ff strings). The top 20% of the modwheel for the brass should be used sparingly and deliberately.
> 
> 4. (the key point) *even though scores by Williams and Silvestri sound natural, they are still using the close mics* to bring out the definition of the strings when that's needed. (I asked some other folks and they confirmed this.) This means that these film score recordings are not really accurate "Decca tree perspectives" of the orchestra, and that's why when balancing I was discovering different values from CSS/CSB out of the box. In real life, when the brass and strings are "striped" the engineer can do whatever with the two separate recordings. When the orchestra is recorded together (as in every JW score, as far as I'm aware), there will necessarily be "bleed" from all sections of the orchestra into the hall mics. But the engineer can still raise the strings against the brass & percussion by using the strings' close and section mics. A virtual emulation of this would involve keeping the Room mics at the same level for both CSS+CSB, while raising the Close and even Main mics of the strings.
> 
> So that's that  I'm gonna try the "close mic" technique while keeping the room mics level, and being very careful with the modwheel!


Thank you for sharing this very useful info. Looking forward to hearing your results with adjusting the close mics.


----------



## brenneisen

Tekkera said:


> So you all made a big deal about nothing this entire time



welcome to vi-control


----------



## Casiquire

Tekkera said:


> So you all made a big deal about nothing this entire time



I must have missed something, what was the "big deal" and what was the "nothing"?


----------



## Tekkera

Casiquire said:


> I must have missed something, what was the "big deal" and what was the "nothing"?


That CSB wasn't """balanced""" with CSS. Who woulda' thunk that what we hear in films isn't actually what's heard during the session volume-wise. Golly gee. Apparently the cinematic studio range samples are played back at the actual volume they were recorded. So what we hear volume wise is how it sounds.


----------



## Casiquire

Tekkera said:


> That CSB wasn't """balanced""" with CSS. Who woulda' thunk that what we hear in films isn't actually what's heard during the session volume-wise. Golly gee. Apparently the cinematic studio range samples are played back at the actual volume they were recorded. So what we hear volume wise is how it sounds.



OH I see. Thanks for clarifying. There's a reason why actual Romantic orchestras needed so many string players when the number of brass players increased even just a little!


----------



## Duncan Krummel

N.Caffrey said:


> Thank you. If you have time maybe one of these days could you post a short snippet?


Of course! Now I'm away from my desk and keyboard, so I just grabbed an existing MIDI I had from another project and repurposed it a bit. Not perfect, but you get the gist. Solos, ensembles, and then coupled with CSS with some reverb:









VI Post #885


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com








Brian Nowak said:


> You will note that the "repetition" short also has a bit of an odd cutoff as well. This is easily remedied by using a touch of external reverb, however. And since I'm a reverb nutjob... well...



Agreed, though the sucking effect is still noticeable with reverb if completely exposed, just less.

I'll get to some fast examples after Christmas!

EDIT: Changed broken SoundCloud links to Dropbox.


----------



## axb312

I too am noticing CPU spikes on the Ensemble patch, becomes unplayable after a bit. Hoping there's something @Alex W can do to fix this...


----------



## Sovereign

NoamL said:


> Hey all, ok so this is what happened regarding *CSS/CSB Volume*. I emailed Alex W to say that I had been trying to set up a template in imitation of some natural-sounding orchestral scores, particularly Silvestri's _Captain America_, and found that CSB was balanced at about -6 to -10 quieter than CSS, but I couldn't nail the exact value, so I asked him what the value should "officially" be.


A better perspective might be gotten then by listening to live orchestral performances instead? I know there's one on YT of Silvestri performing CA.


----------



## camelot

I would assume that recordings of live performances are mixed to liking as well and do not show the actual sound levels.


Brian Nowak said:


> You will note that the "repetition" short also has a bit of an odd cutoff as well. This is easily remedied by using a touch of external reverb, however. And since I'm a reverb nutjob... well...


My understanding was that the repetition articulation is specially made for very short and highly repeated notes without release to avoid a blurring of the note releases into each other. Hence, the last note of the repetition should be a staccato or staccatissimo for a noticable release.


----------



## N.Caffrey

Duncan Krummel said:


> Of course! Now I'm away from my desk and keyboard, so I just grabbed an existing MIDI I had from another project and repurposed it a bit. Not perfect, but you get the gist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And then coupled with CSS with some reverb:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, though the sucking effect is still noticeable with reverb if completely exposed, just less.
> 
> I'll get to some fast examples after Christmas!



Thank you very much for this!


----------



## Brian Nowak

camelot said:


> I would assume that recordings of live performances are mixed to liking as well and do not show the actual sound levels.
> 
> My understanding was that the repetition articulation is specially made for very short and highly repeated notes without release to avoid a blurring of the note releases into each other. Hence, the last note of the repetition should be a staccato or staccatissimo for a noticable release.



Oh yeah for sure. But the muted short unfortunately doesn't have that option, which means it's a bit harder to avoid.


----------



## Consona

calebfaith said:


> I just did a quick and dirty mockup of the first few bars of Flag Parade from Star Wars The Phantom Menace to test out the library. It handles the fast trumpets surprisingly well.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/flag-parade-mp3.17296/][/AUDIOPLUS]


I was listening to the original

and the trumpet shorts are way shorter, is there any way to shorten them in CSB, or are the patches locked?


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Consona said:


> I was listening to the original
> 
> and the trumpet shorts are way shorter, is there any way to shorten them in CSB, or are the patches locked?




The trumpets have definitely more "bite" there and those short reps have not all the same length, they vary from the first longer "short" to those really short punchs in the row. Imo...those things are hard to pull off but its possible. One way is to record that stuff at a lower pacea, and deforming it in the post production (speed alternation). A good candidate for pull that of would be sm, however try using those quadruple reps patch articulation.


----------



## germancomponist

When your ears are trained, you can hear the tempi in which the short notes were recorded. If your library's short notes are still too long, you can record and bounce a passage at exactly the same tempo that they were recorded, then time-stretch it, and finally cut the shorter notes and push them there to get them in the right place. This works wonderfully in Cubase with all sample libraries.

Edit: To find out the original tempo just record the midi and move the tempo up and down. Your ears will tell you ...... .


----------



## Sovereign

Consona said:


> I was listening to the original
> 
> and the trumpet shorts are way shorter, is there any way to shorten them in CSB, or are the patches locked?



Yah, they are shorter in the original, but CSB still sounds great here regardless.


----------



## calebfaith

Consona said:


> I was listening to the original
> 
> and the trumpet shorts are way shorter, is there any way to shorten them in CSB, or are the patches locked?




Yeah I did notice this when doing the mockup but no there isn't anyway to change this in the library.


----------



## Flexi83

He guys
anyone here trying to play the "Vanguard" or "The Long Road" Cinematic studio brass demo that you found on their Internet side?


----------



## JohannesR

Thanks so much for the clarification @NoamL.

The only missing piece now is CC11. Some libraries advocate the use of CC11 in addition to modwheel, meaning the dynamic layers are not true to life using CC1 only.

Do you know if the dynamics are natural using modwheel only (which is my favorite), or do you have to wiggle CC11 as well?



NoamL said:


> Hey all, ok so this is what happened regarding *CSS/CSB Volume*. I emailed Alex W to say that I had been trying to set up a template in imitation of some natural-sounding orchestral scores, particularly Silvestri's _Captain America_, and found that CSB was balanced at about -6 to -10 quieter than CSS, but I couldn't nail the exact value, so I asked him what the value should "officially" be.
> 
> I don't want to reproduce the email but Alex explained the following -
> 
> 1. The libraries are *100% accurate out of the box. *(and with how diligently and accurately everything else about these two libraries is programmed, I believe him!!). The brass simply are "that loud" in the room, and going into each set of mics. A really ripping sound!
> 
> 2. In the CSB walkthrough video, Alex decreased the* master Kontakt volume -9dB* to avoid clipping of multiple instances of CSB, but this was _not_ to balance CSB against CSS; both libraries should be reduced by the *same amount* if you're going to touch the master Kontakt volume.
> 
> 3. "Correct" orchestration will take into account that the brass will be louder at the same written dynamic (ff trumpets will blow away ff strings). The top 20% of the modwheel for the brass should be used sparingly and deliberately.
> 
> 4. (the key point) *even though scores by Williams and Silvestri sound natural, they are still using the close mics* to bring out the definition of the strings when that's needed. (I asked some other folks and they confirmed this.) This means that these film score recordings are not really accurate "Decca tree perspectives" of the orchestra, and that's why when balancing I was discovering different values from CSS/CSB out of the box. In real life, when the brass and strings are "striped" the engineer can do whatever with the two separate recordings. When the orchestra is recorded together (as in every JW score, as far as I'm aware), there will necessarily be "bleed" from all sections of the orchestra into the hall mics. But the engineer can still raise the strings against the brass & percussion by using the strings' close and section mics. A virtual emulation of this would involve keeping the Room mics at the same level for both CSS+CSB, while raising the Close and even Main mics of the strings.
> 
> So that's that  I'm gonna try the "close mic" technique while keeping the room mics level, and being very careful with the modwheel!


----------



## Duncan Krummel

JohannesR said:


> Do you know if the dynamics are natural using modwheel only (which is my favorite), or do you have to wiggle CC11 as well?



@NoamL or @Alex W can chime in with the technical answer, but I can offer my subjective thoughts:

Obviously what feels real will involve how the user tends to use the mod wheel (e.g. heavy handedly or otherwise). Since CSB covers the full dynamic range of the instruments, the mod wheel tends to be more sensitive than other libraries, including CSS and CSSS. That said, for me - once I've recorded CC1 data - it's usually a simple matter of setting a single volume level in either CC11 or the volume fader. There have been a few instances where I've decided to vary the CC11 volume between sections to balance, but the actual mod wheel/dynamic relationship sounds true to life.

I will say, on the topic of CC1, the only issue I have with the Cinematic Studio Series as a whole is that the libraries are silent from CC1 values 1-10ish. This is a feature vs. flaw debate, for sure, but it means I have to be a bit more careful than I'd like at low dynamic layers.


----------



## alfred tapscott

Hi all!. I am working on a new template including CSB, and I'm finding some trouble setting my expression maps on cubase to work with it.

First of all, could maybe @Alex W help us providing where the different articulations and options are mapped in the cc58 ? They don't seem to be the same than in CSS, that I found by chance on a screenshot of one of your walkthrough videos. 

And also, has anyone had luck programming expression maps for it? It is not working all the time for me, as if some wrong info was sent. I am using KS fo switching articulations, and cc58 to send additional info like legato or short/longs, but legat stays stuck every once in a while, etc...

Also using 2 instances to separate longs and shorts, in additional to rooms sent to my surrounds.

Thanks very much, any advice will be much appreciated!

Alfred.


----------



## Dirk Ehlert

alfred tapscott said:


> Hi all!. I am working on a new template including CSB, and I'm finding some trouble setting my expression maps on cubase to work with it.
> 
> First of all, could maybe @Alex W help us providing where the different articulations and options are mapped in the cc58 ? They don't seem to be the same than in CSS, that I found by chance on a screenshot of one of your walkthrough videos.
> 
> And also, has anyone had luck programming expression maps for it? It is not working all the time for me, as if some wrong info was sent. I am using KS fo switching articulations, and cc58 to send additional info like legato or short/longs, but legat stays stuck every once in a while, etc...
> 
> Also using 2 instances to separate longs and shorts, in additional to rooms sent to my surrounds.
> 
> Thanks very much, any advice will be much appreciated!
> 
> Alfred.


 I've done my expression map based on my CSS one and it wasn't that hard to alter. The actual CC values for each articulation are to be found in the manual, but I'll attach mine if anyone finds it useful. Keep in mind that to properly work with the short artics, you need to unlearn the CC1 switch on the short artic wheel in the GUI (right click on the wheel)


----------



## Hywel

Dirk Ehlert said:


> Keep in mind that to properly work with the short artics, you need to unlearn the CC1 switch on the short artic wheel in the GUI (right click on the wheel)



What a GREAT suggestion for CSS, CSSS and CSB. Well done for that and thanks for the Expression Map.


----------



## alfred tapscott

Dirk Ehlert said:


> I've done my expression map based on my CSS one and it wasn't that hard to alter. The actual CC values for each articulation are to be found in the manual, but I'll attach mine if anyone finds it useful. Keep in mind that to properly work with the short artics, you need to unlearn the CC1 switch on the short artic wheel in the GUI (right click on the wheel)


Thanks very much!. How stupid, looked everywhere and not in the actual documentation folder for the manual. Seems to be working fine now, even though I do get some bugs every once in a while where the legato on/off won't switch properly or the short notes will go to sfz instead of my repetitions default, but overall seems to work well. Here I am posting my exp map for it, I am not using all the articulations, but I wanted to have the legato on/off directly triggered by the exp maps, so I used a combination of KS values and cc58s. Hope it helps for somebody else!


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Does anyone know if there is a review or a walkthrough video of CSB? Maybe it's too early. 

Unfortunately, the official videos show very little of the features.

I have some questions. Maybe someone can chime in?

1) How is the "new" legato different to CSS? Is it possible to play short notes, for example?
2) Is it possible to play trills on the legato patches?
3) Are there only rips, or falls, too?
4) Is there vibrato control for trumpet(s) and horn(s)?


----------



## marclawsonmusic

I know that Jay Asher was working on a review. I look forward to seeing that when it's posted.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> 1) How is the "new" legato different to CSS? Is it possible to play short notes, for example?
> 2) Is it possible to play trills on the legato patches?
> 3) Are there only rips, or falls, too?
> 4) Is there vibrato control for trumpet(s) and horn(s)?



1. Outside of what’s going on under the hood (which I couldn’t even guess at), the obvious differences are the lack of portamento, which isn’t that idiomatic a part of brass playing anyways, and the fact that there are only 2 legato speeds. The playing is extremely fluid, though, and more “intuitive,” than CSS and CSSS. Is that vague enough?  Short notes within the sforzando realm, without the accent, are definitely possible. If you listen to my examples wth the muted brass you can hear them (the shorts that aren’t as punchy and short).

2. It may be somewhat doable, but it’s rather cumbersome. However, it absolutely works as mordents or for other brief ornaments.

3. Only rips, and all of them are rather brassy and loud, even with the mod wheel pulled down. That said, using either the fastest legato transition, or the marcato articulation without the overlay (which is what is suggested for runs) yields good results in either direction, across the dynamic range.

4. No vibrato control unfortunately, but I’ll be honest the subtle vibrato that’s there is really nice, and I find myself not missing the independent control as much as I thought I would. Won’t work in every context, but no library does.

I’ll see if I can add some examples of all of this tonight when I’m back home.


----------



## kevthurman

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Does anyone know if there is a review or a walkthrough video of CSB? Maybe it's too early.
> 
> Unfortunately, the official videos show very little of the features.
> 
> I have some questions. Maybe someone can chime in?
> 
> 1) How is the "new" legato different to CSS? Is it possible to play short notes, for example?
> 2) Is it possible to play trills on the legato patches?
> 3) Are there only rips, or falls, too?
> 4) Is there vibrato control for trumpet(s) and horn(s)?


What do you mean by the first 2?


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

kevthurman said:


> What do you mean by the first 2?



1) On the website it is said that there is a "new upgraded legato scipting" under the hood which allows "easy melody sculpting". So I was just asking if a combination of longs and shorts are possible, a more "performance legato" so to speak.
2) I know that there are separate trill patches. Other libraries also achieve some convincing results with "fake" trills when playing two notes rapidly.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Duncan Krummel said:


> 1. Outside of what’s going on under the hood (which I couldn’t even guess at), the obvious differences are the lack of portamento, which isn’t that idiomatic a part of brass playing anyways, and the fact that there are only 2 legato speeds. The playing is extremely fluid, though, and more “intuitive,” than CSS and CSSS. Is that vague enough?  Short notes within the sforzando realm, without the accent, are definitely possible. If you listen to my examples wth the muted brass you can hear them (the shorts that aren’t as punchy and short).
> 
> 2. It may be somewhat doable, but it’s rather cumbersome. However, it absolutely works as mordents or for other brief ornaments.
> 
> 3. Only rips, and all of them are rather brassy and loud, even with the mod wheel pulled down. That said, using either the fastest legato transition, or the marcato articulation without the overlay (which is what is suggested for runs) yields good results in either direction, across the dynamic range.
> 
> 4. No vibrato control unfortunately, but I’ll be honest the subtle vibrato that’s there is really nice, and I find myself not missing the independent control as much as I thought I would. Won’t work in every context, but no library does.
> 
> I’ll see if I can add some examples of all of this tonight when I’m back home.



Thank you so much for the thorough reply. Very appreciated.

1) I think it's vage enough.  Thanks again.

2) Mordents are alright. Other libraries (with the exception of SM Brass) are quite good with "fake" trills, so I can't expect much. Fortunately, there a separate trill patches. Are these for all sections?

3) Pity that there are no other FX patches, but you can't have everything.

4) Hmm... at least on the solo trumpet it would have been a great feature. For sections it is rather not necessary, because you don't want that mariachi effect.


----------



## Dirk Ehlert

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Does anyone know if there is a review or a walkthrough video of CSB? Maybe it's too early.
> 
> Unfortunately, the official videos show very little of the features.
> 
> I have some questions. Maybe someone can chime in?
> 
> 1) How is the "new" legato different to CSS? Is it possible to play short notes, for example?
> 2) Is it possible to play trills on the legato patches?
> 3) Are there only rips, or falls, too?
> 4) Is there vibrato control for trumpet(s) and horn(s)?


I’m goin to do a livestream with CSB tomorrow at 10am pst twitch.tv/dirk_ehlert


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Thank you so much for the thorough reply. Very appreciated.
> 
> 1) I think it's vage enough.  Thanks again.
> 
> 2) Mordents are alright. Other libraries (with the exception of SM Brass) are quite good with "fake" trills, so I can't expect much. Fortunately, there a separate trill patches. Are these for all sections?
> 
> 3) Pity that there are no other FX patches, but you can't have everything.
> 
> 4) Hmm... at least on the solo trumpet it would have been a great feature. For sections it is rather not necessary, because you don't want that mariachi effect.


No problem! Here are a couple of demos/comparisons so you can hear for yourself:









VI Post #880


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com





You'll notice there are no sampled trills for the trombones, despite lip trills being a common technique. May not be very common for scoring, but it's something to consider regardless.

And finally just a quick demo of the trumpet vibrato at three dynamic levels.

EDIT: Changed broken SoundCloud links to Dropbox.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

@Duncan Krummel 

Thanks again for your efforts and your time.


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

CSB live stream by Dirk Ehlert!


----------



## jbuhler

Watching Dirk's stream, still not taken by the tone of CSB, but Dirk is showing another side of the library, and these kind of contextual demonstrations of building a composition with a library (and others) are so helpful for getting a real feel for the strengths and weaknesses. Unexpectedly, I'm not fond of the sound of the (loud) trumpet in the tutti passage—unexpectedly because I've generally liked the sound of the trumpet in the demos that have been posted.


----------



## Scamper

kevthurman said:


> How well do you think CSB could handle some exposed brass like this? Exposed brass moments are some of the toughest things to get right with samples.




Since nobody tackled it yet, I tried myself at Hogwarts Forever with CSB.
My problem was mostly with the length of the shorts to match the original. The Staccato is soft, but mostly too short, the Sfz is longer, but it was often not soft enough.
So, using mainly staccato, it keeps more of the soft character, but it's not as portato anymore.


----------



## Architekton

With a bit more effort on programing part, I think it would sound even better.


----------



## NoamL

Dang, you beat me by minutes! I'm working on a demo too.

This is two instances of CSB Solo Horn and two instances of Majestic Horn, with the 2nd instance stereo-flipped. CSB is Horns I and III.


----------



## kevthurman

Scamper said:


> Since nobody tackled it yet, I tried myself at Hogwarts Forever with CSB.
> My problem was mostly with the length of the shorts to match the original. The Staccato is soft, but mostly too short, the Sfz is longer, but it was often not soft enough.
> So, using mainly staccato, it keeps more of the soft character, but it's not as portato anymore.



Honestly this is pretty good as is. I think if I wanted to perfectly mimic the original I might use sustains and manually handle the swelling dynamics with the mod wheel. Cool demo.


----------



## kevthurman

NoamL said:


> Dang, you beat me by minutes! I'm working on a demo too.
> 
> This is two instances of CSB Solo Horn and two instances of Majestic Horn, with the 2nd instance stereo-flipped. CSB is Horns I and III.



This one is really cool, too. Curious about you mix here. Are you using a lot of close mic, or is that "present" sound coming from majestic horns' tone?


----------



## Scamper

NoamL said:


> Dang, you beat me by minutes! I'm working on a demo too.
> 
> This is two instances of CSB Solo Horn and two instances of Majestic Horn, with the 2nd instance stereo-flipped. CSB is Horns I and III.




Nice, yours is a lot more appropriate. 
Didn't think of the stereo flip, so I just panned everything a bit.
Did you use a lot of sustain/marcato in there? I tried to use that in parts, but in the few hours I worked on it, couldn't get it to sounds as convincing as the short notes. I felt like marcato could work quite well in parts, but would require more than double the work to make it sound nice.


----------



## kevthurman

One of the reasons I think that excerpt is useful is because it seems hard to get a strong, but still _quiet_ and not brassy attack with programmed brass. Berlin Brass does this well due to capsule, and it's nice to see that CSB does this pretty well too.


----------



## Scamper

kevthurman said:


> Honestly this is pretty good as is. I think if I wanted to perfectly mimic the original I might use sustains and manually handle the swelling dynamics with the mod wheel. Cool demo.



I tried sustains, which didn't have the attack, that I wanted and marcatos were also a bit tricky. But then again, I'm still new to the library and don't have the experience with those mockups.


----------



## kevthurman

I'm gonna take a crack at it once I get home.


----------



## JF

Here's another famous section from Mahler's second symphony:



Winds: SSW
Brass: *CSB*
Perc/Harp: Spitfire
Strings: *CSS*

Another mock-up from the same symphony below using CSB:


----------



## Steve Hicks

Another contextual clip using a lot of the multi tongue patch. 

I knocked this up in a couple of hours by ear so please forgive any wrong notes/orchestrations

It’s not perfect but this brass is SO flexible so thought you might like a listen. 

Also, let’s be honest I’m trying to replicate the incomparable Maurice Murphy in his prime so it’s never quite gonna sound the same even if I spent hours programming 

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/clash-of-sabers-mp3.17521/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Mike Fox

Steve Hicks said:


> Another contextual clip using a lot of the multi tongue patch.
> 
> I knocked this up in a couple of hours by ear so please forgive any wrong notes/orchestrations
> 
> It’s not perfect but this brass is SO flexible so thought you might like a listen.
> 
> Also, let’s be honest I’m trying to replicate the incomparable Maurice Murphy in his prime so it’s never quite gonna sound the same even if I spent hours programming
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/clash-of-sabers-mp3.17521/][/AUDIOPLUS]


Excellent! It's clips like these make me want to pull the trigger.


----------



## Scamper

Duncan Krummel said:


> I will say, on the topic of CC1, the only issue I have with the Cinematic Studio Series as a whole is that the libraries are silent from CC1 values 1-10ish. This is a feature vs. flaw debate, for sure, but it means I have to be a bit more careful than I'd like at low dynamic layers.



This also was an issue for me. For CSB, moving CC1 from 2 to 1 is a noticeable jump in volume and at 0 it goes silent. I don't know what DAW you're using, but in Cubase, I've set up a MIDI transformer, which limits the low CC1 range to 2.


----------



## Jaap

JF said:


> Here's another famous section from Mahler's second symphony:
> 
> 
> 
> Winds: SSW
> Brass: *CSB*
> Perc/Harp: Spitfire
> Strings: *CSS*
> 
> Another mock-up from the same symphony below using CSB:




Wow, that sounds good John!


----------



## marclawsonmusic

JF said:


> Here's another famous section from Mahler's second symphony:




Wow! Outstanding work!


----------



## kevthurman

Steve Hicks said:


> Another contextual clip using a lot of the multi tongue patch.
> 
> I knocked this up in a couple of hours by ear so please forgive any wrong notes/orchestrations
> 
> It’s not perfect but this brass is SO flexible so thought you might like a listen.
> 
> Also, let’s be honest I’m trying to replicate the incomparable Maurice Murphy in his prime so it’s never quite gonna sound the same even if I spent hours programming
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/clash-of-sabers-mp3.17521/][/AUDIOPLUS]


Great mockup. The repeated notes are one of the best features of the library IMO. What did you use for your other instruments? I really like that timpani.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

Hi all,

I tried a mockup of the Back To The Future opening - just the first few bars of the brass fanfare.



For FX, I only used ValhallaRoom for reverb tail and a bit of Exciter to enhance the high end.

Some observations...

The 2 trumpets were much louder than other instruments. So, I balanced these using CC11 (at about 64) and also -2 gain reduction in my DAW.
I also did a CC11 reduction on the 2 trombones.
4 horns were not as loud as the rest, so I gave them +2 gain in my DAW. No CC11 reduction on these.
There is a pop / click at F#2 in the 2 trombones patch at CC1 63 using the Sustain articulation. I'm sure Alex will deal with issues like this in an upcoming release.
For day 1 of owning a new library, I was honesty a bit shocked at how easy this was to program. I don't think my result is perfect by any means - some of the 16th note pickups into the longer notes didn't come out as smoothly as I wanted, but overall, it was a lot easier to get a 'fairly close' result in CSB than CineBrass (my current main brass).

I'd love to hear any feedback on making this mockup better. Here is the MIDI in case anyone wants to tinker with it.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ywz4yza1ctlmua/Back%20To%20The%20Future%20CSB%20Test.mid?dl=0

Best,
Marc


----------



## muziksculp

I find CSB demos on the dark side of brass. 

There is a certain brightness at the higher dynamic range in the higher frequencies, that I don't hear in any of the demos. I guess that's a characteristic of CSB to be more on the darker, warmer side at high-dynamics, but when one needs that brighter, piercing high brass frequency, then one needs to use another brass library, i.e. CineBrass.


----------



## kevthurman

muziksculp said:


> I find CSB demos on the dark side of brass.
> 
> There is a certain brightness at the higher dynamic range in the higher frequencies, that I don't hear in any of the demos. I guess that's a characteristic of CSB to be more on the darker, warmer side at high-dynamics, but when one needs that brighter, piercing high brass frequency, then one needs to use another brass library, i.e. CineBrass.


Honestly I've heard a wide range from CSB and I think it comes down to the mic mix. I used to think the same thing about CSS always being dark but found that with some manipulation of the mix I could get really bright and clear strings.


----------



## muziksculp

kevthurman said:


> Honestly I've heard a wide range from CSB and I think it comes down to the mic mix. I used to think the same thing about CSS always being dark but found that with some manipulation of the mix I could get really bright and clear strings.



Interesting, but so far I have not heard any demos that sound bright, and piercing in the higher dynamics of CSB.


----------



## Brian Nowak

I mean - I guess if you need your brass to sound piercingly bright, the Cinematic Studio route might not be your cup of tea. It's a bit more "majestic" and "rich" sounding, but I feel like it can get pretty damn bright up at the top dynamic range as well.

You have to figure most of the demos you're hearing are right out of the box, too. A bit of subtractive EQ and a little high end boosting and you'll get that toppy sound pretty well. It's not as bright as, say, some of the Cinebrass pro stuff, but then how bright do you need it? Sometimes in sample land that can sound pretty fakey.


----------



## muziksculp

Brian Nowak said:


> I mean - I guess if you need your brass to sound piercingly bright, the Cinematic Studio route might not be your cup of tea. It's a bit more "majestic" and "rich" sounding, but I feel like it can get pretty damn bright up at the top dynamic range as well.
> 
> You have to figure most of the demos you're hearing are right out of the box, too. A bit of subtractive EQ and a little high end boosting and you'll get that toppy sound pretty well. It's not as bright as, say, some of the Cinebrass pro stuff, but then how bright do you need it? Sometimes in sample land that can sound pretty fakey.



I have both CineBrass and CineBrass Pro, so I don't have an issue with CSB not sounding too piercing, and bright out of the box. Yes, EQing CSB might help, but that will also sound a bit odd if tweaked too much. I look forward to buying CSB in the near future, I think it is very well suited for the warmer, darker, less piercing brass tones.


----------



## Sovereign

muziksculp said:


> I have both CineBrass and CineBrass Pro, so I don't have an issue with CSB not sounding too piercing, and bright out of the box. Yes, EQing CSB might help, but that will also sound a bit odd if tweaked too much. I look forward to buying CSB in the near future, I think it is very well suited for the warmer, darker, less piercing brass tones.


Funny because I tossed Cinebrass from a piece I was working on and swapped in CSB as I found it just as "piercing" and epic. YMMV.


----------



## Brian Nowak

muziksculp said:


> I have both CineBrass and CineBrass Pro, so I don't have an issue with CSB not sounding too piercing, and bright out of the box. Yes, EQing CSB might help, but that will also sound a bit odd if tweaked too much. I look forward to buying CSB in the near future, I think it is very well suited for the warmer, darker, less piercing brass tones.



It really doesn't need much at all. And I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at just how bright it can be. A lot of the last several demos have kind of focused on the lower dynamic stuff, and it's capable of being quite ripping. It hangs quite easily with Metropolis Ark 1 brass, even.


----------



## muziksculp

@Sovereign , and @Brian Nowak ,

Thanks for your helpful feedback. It's Good to know it can deliver the more piercing, and bright side of Brass when that is needed.


----------



## Go To 11

Would anyone care to do a quick side by side of Cinebrass and CSB? I'd love to hear how they directly compare, as I'm still torn between the two. Thoughts also welcome, thanks!


----------



## Steve Hicks

kevthurman said:


> Great mockup. The repeated notes are one of the best features of the library IMO. What did you use for your other instruments? I really like that timpani.



Hey

Orch tools Orch Sphere wind staccatos
Spitfire Albion One wind legatos
CSB (ofc)
Spitfire Percussion
Spitfire Harp
CSS (with CSSS)

With the Spits libraries I used a more close/less tree balance to mimic the studio sound of CS.


Steve


----------



## NathanTiemeyer

Steve Hicks said:


> Hey
> 
> Spitfire Albion One wind runs
> CSB (ofc)
> Spitfire Percussion
> Spitfire Harp
> CSS (with CSSS)
> 
> With the Spits libraries I used a more close/less tree balance to mimic the studio sound of CS.
> 
> 
> Steve


Do you find these spitfire libraries mix well with the CSS products? The harp, more specifically? The wet sound of both libraries makes me skeptical of their ability to mix together nicely with CSS products. Currently mulling on them both since they're on my SF wishlist


----------



## Scamper

Go To 11 said:


> Would anyone care to do a quick side by side of Cinebrass and CSB? I'd love to hear how they directly compare, as I'm still torn between the two. Thoughts also welcome, thanks!



Do you want me to compare the dynamics or just the sound while keeping the dynamics the same for both? (I have only Cinebrass Core though)


----------



## Go To 11

Scamper said:


> Do you want me to compare the dynamics or just the sound while keeping the dynamics the same for both? (I have only Cinebrass Core though)


Thanks so much - I'm really interested in the sound of the room, without reverb on either. How 'meaty' does the brass sound, what are the early reflections like etc. Just playing the same tune on both, with the opportunity to hear the softest and the loudest, would be amazing. Comparing Horns for Horns or Trumpets for Trumpets would be a great idea, so we can hear how the instruments compare 1 to 1. (As many as you have time for). Thank you!


----------



## constaneum

I'm really loving Cinematic Studio Brass so far. It has the sound which I've been looking for and it works nicely with Cinematic Studio Strings as well as Berlin Woodwinds. Here's my take on trying out the Brass.

"Melanate Empire - The Magical City"


----------



## Sovereign

Here's a quick Conan mockup, just a few bars. CSS and CSB primarily, and just a few Cinewinds. Might mockup some more later, since I really love this score. No verb on top.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/conan_2-mp3.17558/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## axb312

Once again, not my video.


----------



## Hanu_H

Sovereign said:


> Here's a quick Conan mockup, just a few bars. CSS and CSB primarily, and just a few Cinewinds. Might mockup some more later, since I really love this score. No verb on top.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/conan_2-mp3.17558/][/AUDIOPLUS]


Is this transcribed by ear or do you have the score for this? Sounds good.

-Hannes


----------



## Sovereign

Hanu_H said:


> Is this transcribed by ear or do you have the score for this? Sounds good.
> 
> -Hannes


I have a crappy brass band score, so I have to go by ear to fill in a lot. Unfortunately I never was able to find an orchestra score.


----------



## Hanu_H

Sovereign said:


> I have a crappy brass band score, so I have to go by ear to fill in a lot. Unfortunately I never was able to find an orchestra score.


Okay, could you give me a link if it's still available?

-Hannes


----------



## marclawsonmusic

constaneum said:


> I'm really loving Cinematic Studio Brass so far. It has the sound which I've been looking for and it works nicely with Cinematic Studio Strings as well as Berlin Woodwinds. Here's my take on trying out the Brass.
> 
> "Melanate Empire - The Magical City"




This sounds fantastic.


----------



## marclawsonmusic

Go To 11 said:


> Would anyone care to do a quick side by side of Cinebrass and CSB? I'd love to hear how they directly compare, as I'm still torn between the two. Thoughts also welcome, thanks!



There is another thread out there with some examples -> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/cinematic-studio-brass-vs-cinebrass.78052/


----------



## ThomasL

Sovereign said:


> Here's a quick Conan mockup, just a few bars. CSS and CSB primarily, and just a few Cinewinds. Might mockup some more later, since I really love this score. No verb on top.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/conan_2-mp3.17558/][/AUDIOPLUS]


Brilliant! The score to Conan is the score that got me interested in film music in the first place.


----------



## MA-Simon

HAPPY NEW YEAR! Just treated myself to CSB instead of fireworks! Downloading now!


----------



## I like music

MA-Simon said:


> HAPPY NEW YEAR! Just treated myself to CSB instead of fireworks! Downloading now!



You bought it in 2018 just so that you could justify to your significant other that no, you haven't already purchased a brass library in 2019, didn't you?


----------



## constaneum

marclawsonmusic said:


> This sounds fantastic.



Thanks dude. It's truly a gem to work with..... this library is awesome!


----------



## MA-Simon

I like music said:


> You bought it in 2018 just so that you could justify to your significant other that no, you haven't already purchased a brass library in 2019, didn't you?


Even better! I am single, so my 2019 significant other won't even know!


----------



## jbuhler

MA-Simon said:


> Even better! I am single, so my 2019 significant other won't even know!


Sneaky.


----------



## MA-Simon

Here is some random playing on the Solo Horn. Super playable, love it! _
(I appologise in advance for audio outtakes/clicks, those are due to my shitty open boradcaster recording setup and in no way are present in this library!)_


----------



## Gerbil

MA-Simon said:


> Here is some random playing on the Solo Horn. Super playable, love it!



Now that, sir, is a demo. No talking; no other instruments; just a nicely played range of music that really helps me hear what it's capable of.

Despite the recommendations I've been on the fence about this library as I've not been convinced it can offer me much beyond what I already have. But that is a lovely solo horn worth buying alone. 

Are you planning on doing all the inatruments in the library?


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

MA-Simon said:


> Here is some random playing on the Solo Horn. Super playable, love it!
> _(I appologise in advance for audio outtakes/clicks, those are due to my shitty open boradcaster recording setup and in no way are present in this library!)_



Super helpful. Thanks!


----------



## axb312

If anyone here is using reaper, made some slight modifications to @calebfaith scripts (CRT) which seem to work for CSB. I set the whole track to -60 ms and then apply the script to notes with legato transitions only (post quantization). 

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1wR1GP8v5UQK1XSRYEO2ZN05lYsfh2YMG?usp=sharing


----------



## Go To 11

marclawsonmusic said:


> There is another thread out there with some examples -> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/cinematic-studio-brass-vs-cinebrass.78052/


Thanks so much!!


----------



## jonathanparham

MA-Simon said:


> Here is some random playing on the Solo Horn. Super playable, love it!
> _(I appologise in advance for audio outtakes/clicks, those are due to my shitty open boradcaster recording setup and in no way are present in this library!)_



helpful


----------



## Sovereign

Updated my Conan Anvil of Crom mockup. Presented some challenges though, it's not perfect (when is it?), and there's room for improvement but for the most part I think it came out quite nice so far. Did run into some limitations with divisi (obviously) and some of the sampled instrument ranges (trumpets and violins) which didn't go far enough. Difficult to circumvent. Alas.

Edit: corrected balancing error.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/conan_7c-mp3.17597/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Dirk Ehlert

For those guys/gals interested, here's my hands on on YT  cheers


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

@Dirk Ehlert 

In the beginning of your walkthrough you show the smooth dynamic crossfading of the horns, which is great.

Are all of the instruments "phasing-free", in particular the solo ones? Trumpets seem to do it often.


----------



## Dirk Ehlert

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> @Dirk Ehlert
> 
> In the beginning of your walkthrough you show the smooth dynamic crossfading of the horns, which is great.
> 
> Are all of the instruments "phasing-free", in particular the solo ones? Trumpets seem to do it often.


That’s one thing I like most about the lib, the modwheel xfades are super smooth


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Dirk Ehlert said:


> That’s one thing I like most about the lib, the modwheel xfades are super smooth


That sounds great. Pity you didn't show them all in the walkthrough, and went straight to composing.


----------



## artomatic

My first purchase this year!
Totally loving what Alex accomplished with this library.
Well done and much respect @Alex W !


----------



## Dirk Ehlert

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> That sounds great. Pity you didn't show them all in the walkthrough, and went straight to composing.


Duly noted for future streams/hands ons. Thx for the feedback


----------



## Monkberry

This is such a great library. So worth the wait. Bravo Alex.


----------



## sourcefor

So this or Cinebrass Core?


----------



## Consona

sourcefor said:


> So this or Cinebrass Core?


Since Cinesamples update their libraries constantly (at least I hope they continue to do that), there's a possibility the legato will get improved, maybe even some new patches will appear, or some features from 90s Retro, but if you like the darker sound of CSB, buy that. The library feels really cohesive and playable.

I'm still waiting for other 90s Retro libraries before I make up my mind where to put my money, since I have CS Core and Pro and I love the sound.


----------



## I like music

Consona said:


> Since Cinesamples update their libraries constantly (at least I hope they continue to do that), there's a possibility the legato will get improved, maybe even some new patches will appear, or some features from 90s Retro, but if you like the darker sound of CSB, buy that. The library feels really cohesive and playable.
> 
> I'm still waiting for other 90s Retro libraries before I make up my mind where to put my money, since I have CS Core and Pro and I love the sound.



Are the Retro 90s tpts (and possible upcoming horns etc) geared towards forte-type playing, or does it cover a wider dynamic range?


----------



## kevthurman

sourcefor said:


> So this or Cinebrass Core?


CSB:
Really smooth and consistent legato
easy to use and clean interface
overall really consistent and well standardized library
very compatible with CSS and CSSS
wider dynamic range
darker sound
more naturally dry
slightly less articulation options


Cinebrass CORE:
Brighter, brassier, yet still warmer when needed
more ensemble combination patches
about $100 cheaper assuming you're not using the student discount or the CSS discount for CSB
more patches in general, with free updates bringing more and more each time
still one of the better interfaces on the market
wetter sound, seems to have some buggy phasing issues and weird cutoffs as a result, but this is often if not always fixable with clever mixing and programming tricks

I would go check out this thread which has a bunch of mockups and shootouts to hear the difference and see all the conversation people had about the differences: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/cinematic-studio-brass-vs-cinebrass.78052/


----------



## Consona

I like music said:


> Are the Retro 90s tpts (and possible upcoming horns etc) geared towards forte-type playing, or does it cover a wider dynamic range?


I don't think 90s have or will have wider dyn range than CSB.



kevthurman said:


> CSB:
> (...)
> slightly less articulation options


How so? I think CSB has more articulations than CB...


----------



## kevthurman

Consona said:


> I don't think 90s have or will have wider dyn range than CSB.
> 
> 
> How so? I think CSB has more articulations than CB...


I'm not in front of my computer right now so you might be right about that. Sorry!


----------



## Consona

kevthurman said:


> I'm not in front of my computer right now so you might be right about that. Sorry!


No need to apologize, man!  I was just asking in the case I was missing something.


----------



## kevthurman

Consona said:


> No need to apologize, man!  I was just asking in the case I was missing something.


I think I sometimes feel like the CS libraries have less articulations than others because it feels like one instrument to me and so much happens under the hood that I don't realize how many articulations I'm using at any given time. I started with East West and loaded every articulation as its own instrument, so it was quite a shock to me. I think perhaps this is a bonus in favor of CS libraries though haha!


----------



## jdrcomposer

Had to get this beauty and give some Williams a quick try. Love the sound of the ensemble.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/quidditch-mp3.17705/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## ricoderks

jdrcomposer said:


> Had to get this beauty and give some Williams a quick try. Love the sound of the ensemble.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/quidditch-mp3.17705/][/AUDIOPLUS]


More! :D


----------



## Rob Elliott

Yea for sure the 'ensemble' patch is way more than just a sketch pad.  I am sure it is obvious but 'turn off' the trpts on the ensemble patch and you have ensemble patch "II" (sans the trpts). Great for so many uses.


----------



## muziksculp

Rob Elliott said:


> Yea for sure the 'ensemble' patch is way more than just a sketch pad.  I am sure it is obvious but 'turn off' the trpts on the ensemble patch and you have ensemble patch "II" (sans the trpts). Great for so many uses.



Interesting, I plan to purchase this library in the near future, so I have no experience with it.

But... Is it possible to turn off the trumpets in the ensemble patch ? 

Just wondering how one would turn off a specific section of the ensemble patch ? or do you mean you have to go into the Kontakt editor and mute the trumpet sample Zones ? ... ?


----------



## MA-Simon

muziksculp said:


> But... Is it possible to turn off the trumpets in the ensemble patch ?


The way the ensemble in CSB works is that it uses the mix positions of each section instead of the single mic positions. So the 4 mics are: Horns, Trombones, Trumpets, Bass.


----------



## muziksculp

MA-Simon said:


> The way the ensemble in CSB works is that it uses the mix positions of each section instead of the single mic positions. So the 4 mics are: Horns, Trombones, Trumpets, Bass.



Oh, I see. This is quite a good approach, since one can customize the content of the ensemble patch. very cool. 

Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## Zee

muziksculp said:


> Just wondering how one would turn off a specific section of the ensemble patch ?


The Ensemble patch has a microphone for each of the sections (It's more of a convenient multi i don't think they recorded it as an ensemble)


----------



## N.Caffrey

jdrcomposer said:


> Had to get this beauty and give some Williams a quick try. Love the sound of the ensemble.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/quidditch-mp3.17705/][/AUDIOPLUS]


Ok I need this library


----------



## jdrcomposer

ricoderks said:


> More! :D


I’ll try to get more done today - due to a few Apple screw ups I’m stuck with GarageBand for the week instead of logic, but it’s been an experience for sure


----------



## Rob Elliott

muziksculp said:


> Interesting, I plan to purchase this library in the near future, so I have no experience with it.
> 
> But... Is it possible to turn off the trumpets in the ensemble patch ?
> 
> Just wondering how one would turn off a specific section of the ensemble patch ? or do you mean you have to go into the Kontakt editor and mute the trumpet sample Zones ? ... ?


In addition to turning off the trpts - I also have a saved patch with ONLY bones and tuba (turn off the horns). Uber convenient to getting it done under schedule pressure.


----------



## jdrcomposer

Here's more of the excerpt from Quidditch - the trumpets have such a clear quality I haven't been able to achieve with other libraries.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/quidditch-excerpt-mp3.17712/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## LLGen

jdrcomposer said:


> Here's more of the excerpt from Quidditch - the trumpets have such a clear quality I haven't been able to achieve with other libraries.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/quidditch-excerpt-mp3.17712/][/AUDIOPLUS]


 Sounds good. Sorry if you mentioned this earlier, but were you able to play this in?


----------



## jdrcomposer

LLGen said:


> Sounds good. Sorry if you mentioned this earlier, but were you able to play this in?


Yup, this was played in


----------



## LLGen

Thanks, jdrcomposer. Well done.


----------



## miguel88

how is the sound of the close mic? i hear someone that the close mic has a high weird noise. can this library sound dry


----------



## jdrcomposer

miguel88 said:


> how is the sound of the close mic? i hear someone that the close mic has a high weird noise. can this library sound dry



I like the close microphones. It's a little hard to use with the solo instruments because of phasing between dynamics, but I like how dry it is. 

Here are a few examples - Raider's Theme with only close microphones, then a passage of Simple Gifts with solo trumpet, then solo horn.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/raiders-close-mic-mp3.17726/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/simple-gifts-trumpet-mp3.17727/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/simple-gifts-horn-mp3.17728/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Casiquire

jdrcomposer said:


> I like the close microphones. It's a little hard to use with the solo instruments because of phasing between dynamics, but I like how dry it is.
> 
> Here are a few examples - Raider's Theme with only close microphones, then a passage of Simple Gifts with solo trumpet, then solo horn.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/raiders-close-mic-mp3.17726/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/simple-gifts-trumpet-mp3.17727/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/simple-gifts-horn-mp3.17728/][/AUDIOPLUS]



This library sounds incredible


----------



## IdealSequenceG

It is very useful for melody lines.


----------



## leon chevalier

I made a short demo : https://vi-control.net/community/th...rass-with-a-strange-hanz-zilliams-vibe.78596/


----------



## Casiquire

IdealSequenceG said:


> It is very useful for melody lines.




Thanks for posting! Is that a really uneven crossfade at the end or is there something else going on?


----------



## michdb

jdrcomposer said:


> I like the close microphones. It's a little hard to use with the solo instruments because of phasing between dynamics, but I like how dry it is.
> 
> Here are a few examples - Raider's Theme with only close microphones, then a passage of Simple Gifts with solo trumpet, then solo horn.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/raiders-close-mic-mp3.17726/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/simple-gifts-trumpet-mp3.17727/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/simple-gifts-horn-mp3.17728/][/AUDIOPLUS]


actually, I have a problem with close mic most instruments I can hear the phasing, how did you fix that? i have cinebrass core and i cant hear that with only the close mic
here a sample of the sound with csb

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/2-trumpet-close-mic-mp3.17737/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Grim_Universe

@michdb you can't do anything about it. We don't hear phasing problems in real recordings just because they are blurred out with early reflections.
I remember times when we tried to make SM brass to sound "cinematic" and we faced exactly the same problem with phasing. Then somebody asked guys from SM how to solve it and they told us that the phasing problem with 2 or 3 trumpets exists in a real life and can be solved only if you ask trumpet players to play differently from each other. In all other cases you need strong early reflections to mask phasing.


----------



## Saxer

Actually phasing is what makes the ensemble sound. Natural phasing between acoustic instruments has a more chaotic nature due to the pitch/timbre/timing variation of every single player. Samples are tuned and triggered by the same note-on and so the phasing can become more static and sounds kind of technical. Random detuning between the voices and dequantisation helps.


----------



## Consona

Interesting.


----------



## IdealSequenceG

Casiquire said:


> Thanks for posting! Is that a really uneven crossfade at the end or is there something else going on?



The end is my mistake.


----------



## theiss1979

IdealSequenceG said:


> It is very useful for melody lines.




Super Mario Galaxy!


----------



## Benjamin Duk

NoamL said:


> Hey all, ok so this is what happened regarding *CSS/CSB Volume*. I emailed Alex W to say that I had been trying to set up a template in imitation of some natural-sounding orchestral scores, particularly Silvestri's _Captain America_, and found that CSB was balanced at about -6 to -10 quieter than CSS, but I couldn't nail the exact value, so I asked him what the value should "officially" be.
> 
> I don't want to reproduce the email but Alex explained the following -
> 
> 1. The libraries are *100% accurate out of the box. *(and with how diligently and accurately everything else about these two libraries is programmed, I believe him!!). The brass simply are "that loud" in the room, and going into each set of mics. A really ripping sound!
> 
> 2. In the CSB walkthrough video, Alex decreased the* master Kontakt volume -9dB* to avoid clipping of multiple instances of CSB, but this was _not_ to balance CSB against CSS; both libraries should be reduced by the *same amount* if you're going to touch the master Kontakt volume.
> 
> 3. "Correct" orchestration will take into account that the brass will be louder at the same written dynamic (ff trumpets will blow away ff strings). The top 20% of the modwheel for the brass should be used sparingly and deliberately.
> 
> 4. (the key point) *even though scores by Williams and Silvestri sound natural, they are still using the close mics* to bring out the definition of the strings when that's needed. (I asked some other folks and they confirmed this.) This means that these film score recordings are not really accurate "Decca tree perspectives" of the orchestra, and that's why when balancing I was discovering different values from CSS/CSB out of the box. In real life, when the brass and strings are "striped" the engineer can do whatever with the two separate recordings. When the orchestra is recorded together (as in every JW score, as far as I'm aware), there will necessarily be "bleed" from all sections of the orchestra into the hall mics. But the engineer can still raise the strings against the brass & percussion by using the strings' close and section mics. A virtual emulation of this would involve keeping the Room mics at the same level for both CSS+CSB, while raising the Close and even Main mics of the strings.
> 
> So that's that  I'm gonna try the "close mic" technique while keeping the room mics level, and being very careful with the modwheel!



Is this using the Mix out of the box balance or just using the Main? So in other words you decrease all the Strings and Brass by -9db using the default Mix balance.


----------



## michdb

Grim_Universe said:


> @michdb you can't do anything about it. We don't hear phasing problems in real recordings just because they are blurred out with early reflections.
> I remember times when we tried to make SM brass to sound "cinematic" and we faced exactly the same problem with phasing. Then somebody asked guys from SM how to solve it and they told us that the phasing problem with 2 or 3 trumpets exists in a real life and can be solved only if you ask trumpet players to play differently from each other. In all other cases you need strong early reflections to mask phasing.


so the reason why in cinebrass doesn't have this problem is because on the close mic have more room sound? I m curious how the new spitfire brass sound with close mic


----------



## Grim_Universe

@michdb can you please upload an example of how cinebrass sounds?
By the way, I think I know how you can "fix" this problem. Create two instances of solo trumpet and lower the pitch of one of them by -2. Then rise pitch of a midi channel by 2. That way you will trigger different samples of the same melody line and you can create a slightly different dynamics which will solve a phasing problem.
So basically you'll have two midi channels: one of them will remain untouched, and the second one will be pitched by +2 and sending signal to a -2 trumpet. Hope this helps!


----------



## michdb

Grim_Universe said:


> @michdb can you please upload an example of how cinebrass sounds?
> By the way, I think I know how you can "fix" this problem. Create two instances of solo trumpet and lower the pitch of one of them by -2. Then rise pitch of a midi channel by 2. That way you will trigger different samples of the same melody line and you can create a slightly different dynamics which will solve a phasing problem.
> So basically you'll have two midi channels: one of them will remain untouched, and the second one will be pitched by +2 and sending signal to a -2 trumpet. Hope this helps!


i ll check that way
I left here with cinebrass

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/cb-trumpets-ensemble-close-mic-mp3.17753/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## rdieters

Saxer said:


> Actually phasing is what makes the ensemble sound. Natural phasing between acoustic instruments has a more chaotic nature due to the pitch/timbre/timing variation of every single player. Samples are tuned and triggered by the same note-on and so the phasing can become more static and sounds kind of technical. Random detuning between the voices and dequantisation helps.



Very true. It also helps to do more than one breath controller take, and assign each to individual voices.


----------



## Grim_Universe

@michdb is it a close mic? Very strange! Feels like it has _a lot _of early reflections.


----------



## miguel88

Grim_Universe said:


> @michdb is it a close mic? Very strange! Feels like it has _a lot _of early reflections.


Yes is only the close mic I think csb has too much phasing sound , in cinebrass core I cant hear it much with any patch


----------



## JohnBMears

A few bars from the end of Summon The Heroes. Used the transposition trick to create more players as he wrote it for 6 tpts, 4 horns, 4 bones & tuba!


----------



## Consona

calebfaith said:


> I just did a quick and dirty mockup of the first few bars of Flag Parade from Star Wars The Phantom Menace to test out the library. It handles the fast trumpets surprisingly well.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/flag-parade-mp3.17296/][/AUDIOPLUS]


Could you tell me, is this the mix mic position and did you use any eq? I'm comparing various CSB demos and I really like the sound of this demo of yours.


----------



## calebfaith

Consona said:


> Could you tell me, is this the mix mic position and did you use any eq? I'm comparing various CSB demos and I really like the sound of this demo of yours.



Its the mix mic position, very little eq and a little QL Spaces verb


----------



## Consona

calebfaith said:


> Its the mix mic position, very little eq and a little QL Spaces verb


Hm, interesting, sounds different to some other demos that used the mix position.

Some other stuff you made with CSB?  That SW mock-up was really tasty.


----------



## Rob Elliott

calebfaith said:


> Its the mix mic position, very little eq and a little QL Spaces verb


Are you finding any need to further 'powerpan / or narrow' (VSL) CSB in your Daw on final mix? Especially on densely orchestrated material (with all brass, strings, woods 'choirs' going at it.)


----------



## calebfaith

Consona said:


> Hm, interesting, sounds different to some other demos that used the mix position.
> 
> Some other stuff you made with CSB?  That SW mock-up was really tasty.



I don't have anything else I'm allowed to post sorry



Rob Elliott said:


> Are you finding any need to further 'powerpan / or narrow' (VSL) CSB in your Daw on final mix? Especially on densely orchestrated material (with all brass, strings, woods 'choirs' going at it.)



I've found that I quite like the placement of the instruments so far. I haven't had the time to play around with the different mic positions and panning as of yet. I like a wide mix


----------



## Rob Elliott

calebfaith said:


> I don't have anything else I'm allowed to post sorry
> 
> 
> 
> I've found that I quite like the placement of the instruments so far. I haven't had the time to play around with the different mic positions and panning as of yet. I like a wide mix


Yea - the panning out of the box seems spot on. I have a fairly densely orchestrated cue that I am doing currently that I am considering 'narrowing' with powerpan - but I suspect I'll just resort to the panning/mics I have now.


----------



## Consona

calebfaith said:


> I don't have anything else I'm allowed to post sorry


No problem.


----------



## Consona

calebfaith said:


> I just did a quick and dirty mockup of the first few bars of Flag Parade from Star Wars The Phantom Menace to test out the library. It handles the fast trumpets surprisingly well.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/flag-parade-mp3.17296/][/AUDIOPLUS]


I'm still listening to this demo.  Any new CSB pieces you can share, Caleb?


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I made a mock-up using CSB, forgot to share here!

Slave Children's Crusade


----------



## Robert_G

Just got CSB. Love it. I noticed there is no advanced legato setting....are the delay timings the same as CSS

100 for fast 250 for medium?


----------



## tack

Robert_G said:


> 100 for fast 250 for medium?


It varies by instrument. This is detailed in CSB's documentation.


----------



## Robert_G

tack said:


> It varies by instrument. This is detailed in CSB's documentation.



Interesting since CSS is the same for each instrument


----------



## tack

Robert_G said:


> Interesting since CSS is the same for each instrument


Relevant excerpt from the docs:


> However, the amount of delay varies with each instrument, and we did this on purpose in order to better accommodate the way the instrument itself functions. For example, the trombone can’t move from one note to the next as quickly as a trumpet, and so this is reflected in the feel of the legato.


----------



## ricoderks

I think the 'delay' for the legato is not a problem at all. If you want to make your mockup sound as good as it can be, take your time with the editing and cc's. Hope CSW will come soon with the same approach!


----------



## Robert_G

I actually have gotten used to it really quickly with the strings. It sounds amazing when you adjust it correctly and it does add some realism.


----------



## constaneum

Robert_G said:


> I actually have gotten used to it really quickly with the strings. It sounds amazing when you adjust it correctly and it does add some realism.



Yea. Got used to it. If you wanna layer CSS with other strings, you might wanna consider using the classic legato patches.


----------



## Robert_G

constaneum said:


> Yea. Got used to it. If you wanna layer CSS with other strings, you might wanna consider using the classic legato patches.



Its so good on its own. What would you layer it with?


----------



## constaneum

Robert_G said:


> Its so good on its own. What would you layer it with?



Lass or CS2. If you want to. Hahhah.


----------



## Consona

I'm still waiting for Junkie XL brass to see what that will offer, otherwise I'd buy CSB right away.

Where is the CSS and CSB documentation? I was trying to find manuals online but wasn't successful.



NeonMediaKJT said:


> I made a mock-up using CSB, forgot to share here!
> 
> Slave Children's Crusade



Hehe, was listening to this on youtube on repeat a few days ago.

Also your Star Wars pieces are really sweet! Liked them a lot. You should make some tutorials, your mixes sound great.

So your basic set up is CSS with CSB and Cinewinds? Obligatory question... what reverb do you use? 
Cheers!


----------



## N.Caffrey

ricoderks said:


> I think the 'delay' for the legato is not a problem at all. If you want to make your mockup sound as good as it can be, take your time with the editing and cc's. Hope CSW will come soon with the same approach!



Months ago you posted a snippet from a piece. It was amazing. Did you finish it?


----------



## ricoderks

N.Caffrey said:


> Months ago you posted a snippet from a piece. It was amazing. Did you finish it?


Haha! No not yet.... Did an other test though... I'm more busy mixing my template than finishing songs xD


----------



## Scamper

ricoderks said:


> Haha! No not yet.... Did an other test though... I'm more busy mixing my template then finishing songs xD




Sounds great overall, what libraries do you have in there besides CSB?


----------



## ricoderks

Scamper said:


> Sounds great overall, what libraries do you have in there besides CSB?



Thanks!

For strings:
CSS, CSSS, Adventure and soaring strings.

Brass:
CSB, Samplemodeling and angry brass

Woodwinds:
Hollywood woodwinds (cinesamples)
Auddict audio woodwinds

Percussion:
Cineperc, True Strike

Reverb:
Seventh Heaven


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Consona said:


> I'm still waiting for Junkie XL brass to see what that will offer, otherwise I'd buy CSB right away.
> 
> Where is the CSS and CSB documentation? I was trying to find manuals online but wasn't successful.
> 
> 
> Hehe, was listening to this on youtube on repeat a few days ago.
> 
> Also your Star Wars pieces are really sweet! Liked them a lot. You should make some tutorials, your mixes sound great.
> 
> So your basic set up is CSS with CSB and Cinewinds? Obligatory question... what reverb do you use?
> Cheers!



Ha! I wasn't expecting anyone to have heard any of my other YouTube uploads on this forum. Thanks a lot!

I've often thought about doing some videos of just making music and recording it but I'm terrible at talking to myself, lol.

In that specific mock-up, the set up was:
CSB
CSS
CineWinds Core
True Strike 1

And I often use the East West Gold versions of HB, HS and Symphonic Orchestra for string, brass and percussive FX to fill things out. 
Reverb is all Valhalla Room and I have every single instrument going into one Reverb at different send percentages. There's probably a much better way, but the simplest way helps me stay sane haha


----------



## constaneum

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Ha! I wasn't expecting anyone to have heard any of my other YouTube uploads on this forum. Thanks a lot!
> 
> I've often thought about doing some videos of just making music and recording it but I'm terrible at talking to myself, lol.
> 
> In that specific mock-up, the set up was:
> CSB
> CSS
> CineWinds Core
> True Strike 1
> 
> And I often use the East West Gold versions of HB, HS and Symphonic Orchestra for string, brass and percussive FX to fill things out.
> Reverb is all Valhalla Room and I have every single instrument going into one Reverb at different send percentages. There's probably a much better way, but the simplest way helps me stay sane haha



Did you use other instrument positioning plugin? Seems like it's pushed back quite a lot and i like it ! What did you use for CSB and CSS? all Mix mic ?


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

constaneum said:


> Did you use other instrument positioning plugin? Seems like it's pushed back quite a lot and i like it ! What did you use for CSB and CSS? all Mix mic ?



I sometimes use Panagement for Woodwinds, but just woodwinds. For Percussion, I always use the far mics. However, for CSS and CSB, I just used the mix mics and sent them to the reverb for that specific mock-up. I kinda wish I'd have used the far mics for the Trombones as they sound kinda dry there.


----------



## constaneum

for percussion, far mics can be pretty muddy. 

I'm thinking of using room mic only for CSB. Haven't tested out that yet.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

constaneum said:


> for percussion, far mics can be pretty muddy.
> 
> I'm thinking of using room mic only for CSB. Haven't tested out that yet.


Yeah it can do. I find I have to EQ my low percussion such as Timpani and Gran Cassa a fair bit sometimes. I just like to have the percussion to sound as pushed back as possible.

CSB room mic work best for Trumpet repetitions, I find. I just think that you lose a little bit of punch by doing it, so adding a slight bit of close mic helps.


----------



## ltmusic

ricoderks said:


> Haha! No not yet.... Did an other test though... I'm more busy mixing my template then finishing songs xD




Great!!! 
How much memory do you need for this template ? Can you shear the specs of your machine ? what reverb you use to glue all these sounds?


----------



## constaneum

ricoderks said:


> Thanks!
> 
> For strings:
> CSS, CSSS, Adventure and soaring strings.
> 
> Brass:
> CSB, Samplemodeling and angry brass
> 
> Woodwinds:
> Hollywood woodwinds (cinesamples)
> Auddict audio woodwinds
> 
> Percussion:
> Cineperc, True Strike
> 
> Reverb:
> Seventh Heaven



Which preset did you use for seventh heaven ?


----------



## Brian Nowak

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Reverb is all Valhalla Room and I have every single instrument going into one Reverb at different send percentages. There's probably a much better way, but the simplest way helps me stay sane haha



I use VROOM and what I do is set up 3 different versions of the same reverb with different depth and pre-delay settings for close/medium/far groups. Strings go to close. Winds go to medium. Brass and percussion go to far. 

I know some people don't care for the sound of Room but I have tried a fair number of great reverbs and still haven't found one as successful as Room at giving me a sense of depth and placement. Nimbus was close but it was just similar enough I couldn't justify buying it. It takes some work to get Room sounding how I want it but the results are nothing short of spectacular, especially considering how cheap it is.


----------



## ricoderks

ltmusic said:


> Great!!!
> How much memory do you need for this template ? Can you shear the specs of your machine ? what reverb you use to glue all these sounds?



Close to 80GB. All mics loaded and running from 4 ssd's. Its an setup of 2 pc's running VEP... Old i7 nothing special actually. Reverb is Seventh Heaven as mentioned in the post.



constaneum said:


> Which preset did you use for seventh heaven ?



Several ones: Large hall, Mechanics hall and Large and dark


----------



## ricoderks

I like this setup


----------



## cloudesky

Sounds awesome!! Any plans on creating tutorials in the future? I would like to know how to setup a well balanced template like yours.


----------



## ltmusic

ricoderks said:


> Close to 80GB. All mics loaded and running from 4 ssd's. Its an setup of 2 pc's running VEP... Old i7 nothing special actually. Reverb is Seventh Heaven as mentioned in the post.
> 
> 
> 
> Several ones: Large hall, Mechanics hall and Large and dark




Thanks!! We are waiting for a tutorial!!


----------



## Consona

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Ha! I wasn't expecting anyone to have heard any of my other YouTube uploads on this forum. Thanks a lot!
> 
> I've often thought about doing some videos of just making music and recording it but I'm terrible at talking to myself, lol.
> 
> In that specific mock-up, the set up was:
> CSB
> CSS
> CineWinds Core
> True Strike 1
> 
> And I often use the East West Gold versions of HB, HS and Symphonic Orchestra for string, brass and percussive FX to fill things out.
> Reverb is all Valhalla Room and I have every single instrument going into one Reverb at different send percentages. There's probably a much better way, but the simplest way helps me stay sane haha


I don't think talking is that necessary.  Would be really interesting just to watch your workflow, how you mix the orchestra, etc. 

Hm, interesting, when I was choosing Valhalla reverb, after demoing all available I chose VVV, I had liked its sound the best, but in the end it seems it doesn't matter that much since Room sounds really good in your mixes. How much of a wet signal do you use? I tried to match my reverb setting with Attack of the Clones score and ended up somewhere around 30% on VVV together with 24% on Lexicon MPX. (I use two since I like the sound of them combined, it brings a little more density.)

Listening to CSB really makes me want to try it, I only have Cinebrass, but CSB lines feel more coherent and tight.


----------



## Architekton

Any news on woodwinds?


----------



## ricoderks

cloudesky said:


> Sounds awesome!! Any plans on creating tutorials in the future? I would like to know how to setup a well balanced template like yours.





ltmusic said:


> Thanks!! We are waiting for a tutorial!!



Who knows! Im not really planning on making one. Maybe if i'm finished with upcoming sessions. Thanks!


----------



## tack

Architekton said:


> Any news on woodwinds?


Strings was released in June 2016, and Brass in Dec 2018. If woodwinds takes the same amount of time to develop, it'll be mid 2021 before it drops.


----------



## ricoderks

tack said:


> Strings was released in June 2016, and Brass in Dec 2018. If woodwinds takes the same amount of time to develop, it'll be mid 2021 before it drops.


Certainly hope not! But on the other hand... They took their time to make a wonderful product out of CSB. If it takes them a year more to do it, so be it.


----------



## constaneum

ricoderks said:


> Certainly hope not! But on the other hand... They took their time to make a wonderful product out of CSB. If it takes them a year more to do it, so be it.



I'm anticipating Dec 2019 or early 2021. Sampling method should be the same as Brass for winds instruments right ?


----------



## ricoderks

constaneum said:


> I'm anticipating Dec 2019 or early 2021. Sampling method should be the same as Brass for winds instruments right ?


Late 2019 or early 2021? What happened to 2020!?


----------



## leon chevalier

I've asked by email and Alex kindly reply the end of this year for the woodwinds, but without promise.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

tack said:


> Strings was released in June 2016, and Brass in Dec 2018. If woodwinds takes the same amount of time to develop, it'll be mid 2021 before it drops.


CSS in 2016, CSSS in 2017, CSB in 2018. 

CSW in 2019 seems to fit with this timing.


----------



## tack

Land of Missing Parts said:


> CSW in 2019 seems to fit with this timing.


Ah excellent point. There's hope yet.


----------



## Brian Nowak

Maybe I'm losing it but I thought Alex said the brass and woodwind samples were recorded back to back, that the brass was released first, and that woodwinds would be released by the end of this year. 

He also explained at some point that the winds were the largest of all the libraries that CS has done so far.

Cinematic Studios hasn't released a clunker yet. So I'm sure the winds are going to be awesome.


----------



## Robert_G

I just bought the brass a few days ago and had a small issue that i emailed Alex about....and i tagged the end of my email about the woodwinds.

His reply was this and quote:

_
We're working hard on woodwinds at the moment and we're hoping to get CSW released by the end of the year; we're a very small team so it does take us a while between releases._

That was just a few days ago


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

I've been needing a proper Woodwinds library for ages now. Still don't know whether to wait for CSW or just go for Spitfire Studio Winds or even Symphonic winds while they're on sale.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Consona said:


> I don't think talking is that necessary.  Would be really interesting just to watch your workflow, how you mix the orchestra, etc.
> 
> Hm, interesting, when I was choosing Valhalla reverb, after demoing all available I chose VVV, I had liked its sound the best, but in the end it seems it doesn't matter that much since Room sounds really good in your mixes. How much of a wet signal do you use? I tried to match my reverb setting with Attack of the Clones score and ended up somewhere around 30% on VVV together with 24% on Lexicon MPX. (I use two since I like the sound of them combined, it brings a little more density.)
> 
> Listening to CSB really makes me want to try it, I only have Cinebrass, but CSB lines feel more coherent and tight.



Funny you say that, because Valhalla Vintage Verb (I assume that's what you meant) was my favourite, but I for some reason went with Valhalla Room. 
When I send an instrument to a mixer track with Reverb on it, the Reverb is at 100% wet and I just alter the send percentage depending on how far I want it to sound. Honestly, I just automatically just drag the send slider down a little bit for everything and leave it as it is, lol.


----------



## jamwerks

Brian Nowak said:


> Cinematic Studios hasn't released a clunker yet. So I'm sure the winds are going to be awesome.


Well the Solo Strings weren't anything to write home about. And their Studio Piano isn't very good (imo). I do expect though that their WW's will be another great library like the Orchestral strings and CSB. They've probably learned everything they need to know now in doing the brass!


----------



## pawelmorytko

I hope the winds come out later this year, only things left I need to complete my template are winds and percussion. Winds will either be Berlin or Cinematic Studio, depending on how good CSW turn out to be, and percussion will either be Spitfire Percussion or again Cinematic Studio.

With Cinematic Studio Brass my only issue is that it drains my RAM, having any more than 2 or 3 tracks with any of the patches can cause my Logic and Mac to freeze, I know it's only 16GB ram but I really have to be careful with freezing and unloading patches/purging. It's the ensemble patches that drain the most, luckily I don't use them that much anymore since I split up my template into individual instruments.


----------



## Brian Nowak

jamwerks said:


> Well the Solo Strings weren't anything to write home about. And their Studio Piano isn't very good (imo). I do expect though that their WW's will be another great library like the Orchestral strings and CSB. They've probably learned everything they need to know now in doing the brass!



I personally like both those libraries for certain situations. I have a good buddy that did an entire albums worth of piano for a pop artist using CSP and all parties were thrilled. 

Each to his own I guess...


----------



## ricoderks

pawelmorytko said:


> I hope the winds come out later this year, only things left I need to complete my template are winds and percussion. Winds will either be Berlin or Cinematic Studio, depending on how good CSW turn out to be, and percussion will either be Spitfire Percussion or again Cinematic Studio.
> 
> With Cinematic Studio Brass my only issue is that it drains my RAM, having any more than 2 or 3 tracks with any of the patches can cause my Logic and Mac to freeze, I know it's only 16GB ram but I really have to be careful with freezing and unloading patches/purging. It's the ensemble patches that drain the most, luckily I don't use them that much anymore since I split up my template into individual instruments.


Time for a PC - Beast!


----------



## constaneum

ricoderks said:


> Late 2019 or early 2021? What happened to 2020!?



Ahhh....typo. i meant 2020. Hahaha


----------



## Ashermusic

jamwerks said:


> Well the Solo Strings weren't anything to write home about. And their Studio Piano isn't very good (imo). I do expect though that their WW's will be another great library like the Orchestral strings and CSB. They've probably learned everything they need to know now in doing the brass!



I disagree with your assessment of both those, especially the solo strings.


----------



## axb312

Ashermusic said:


> I disagree with your assessment of both those, especially the solo strings.



I agree with your disagreement...


----------



## Consona

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I've been needing a proper Woodwinds library for ages now. Still don't know whether to wait for CSW or just go for Spitfire Studio Winds or even Symphonic winds while they're on sale.


Your pieces with Cinewinds sound good so I'd wait for CSW. You can always buy other libraries on sale later in case CSW won't feel right to you.


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## Robert_G

NeonMediaKJT said:


> I've been needing a proper Woodwinds library for ages now. Still don't know whether to wait for CSW or just go for Spitfire Studio Winds or even Symphonic winds while they're on sale.



Ive had the spitfire studio woodwinds core for awhile now and they are really nice with the right reverb. That being said...the extra mics that come with pro make me want to upgrade for sure at the next sale. The programming for SSt WW is really good. Regardless...if CSW is even close to the quality CSB or CSS....ill buy it for sure.


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## NoamL

I use the solo strings all the time


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## I like music

Brian Nowak said:


> I personally like both those libraries for certain situations. I have a good buddy that did an entire albums worth of piano for a pop artist using CSP and all parties were thrilled.
> 
> Each to his own I guess...



Also pretty sure that the piano only costs about the equivalent of a cheap night out, so I find it is a great product for the price.


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## cqd

Yeah, the piano is ok..
I wouldn't be a fan of the solo strings either..
But I find, I got Cubase in the recent sale, and CSS is a completely different beast in Cubase vs pro tools.. No latency in Cubase.. unusable in pro tools..
Was hoping the woodwinds would be out by now..cracked and got the vsl see woodwinds to tide me over until CSWW..


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## Architekton

leon chevalier said:


> I've asked by email and Alex kindly reply the end of this year for the woodwinds, but without promise.



Hopefully it will be end of this year!!!


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## paularthur

Is the legato delay in CSB the same as CSS?
and the shorts delay?


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## Jonathan Moray

paularthur said:


> Is the legato delay in CSB the same as CSS?
> and the shorts delay?



No. Sadly they are different. CSS has the same delay for all instruments; one delay for shorts, and different delays for slow, medium, and fast, but at least this is the same for all instruments in the String family.

On the other hand; CSB has different delays for all instruments. This was a conscious choice from the team, which I don't understand at all. I see what they mean by different instruments having different legato lengths, trombones take longer to go from note to note than trumpets, but why not make the legato length a common denominator of the highest delay. I don't have a much of a problem with legato delay as some others here seem to have, but that's only if it consistent across the board so that I can move ALL notes a specific amount and have them in perfect time with each other. With CSB you would have to move the notes a different amount compared to the Strings, and even other brass instruments. This seems like a odd choice considering the crazy consistency in the Cinematic Studio series.

But almost exactly a year ago Alex said, if i remember correctly, that they were working on an update for CSS to move them over to the new legato engine. Not sure what that entails, but I'm hoping for a more consistent delay across the different families, and instruments.


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## paularthur

Jonathan Moray said:


> No. Sadly they are different. CSS has the same delay for all instruments; one delay for shorts, and different delays for slow, medium, and fast, but at least this is the same for all instruments in the String family.
> 
> On the other hand; CSB has different delays for all instruments. This was a conscious choice from the team, which I don't understand at all. I see what they mean by different instruments having different legato lengths, trombones take longer to go from note to note than trumpets, but why not make the legato length a common denominator of the highest delay. I don't have a much of a problem with legato delay as some others here seem to have, but that's only if it consistent across the board so that I can move ALL notes a specific amount and have them in perfect time with each other. With CSB you would have to move the notes a different amount compared to the Strings, and even other brass instruments. This seems like a odd choice considering the crazy consistency in the Cinematic Studio series.
> 
> But almost exactly a year ago Alex said, if i remember correctly, that they were working on an update for CSS to move them over to the new legato engine. Not sure what that entails, but I'm hoping for a more consistent delay across the different families, and instruments.


I hear you! 
Thank you sir, and my apologies if this was already asked/answered!


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## Jonathan Moray

paularthur said:


> I hear you!
> Thank you sir, and my apologies if this was already asked/answered!



I should add that the fastest legato transition is the same for all instruments. I think it's 100ms for both strings and brass.


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## Pablocrespo

I seem to recall also the legato update for css, maybe Alex could chine in here and tell us about the state this update is in?

I have buttons that move the different legato types in CSS I thought that the sale could be achieved with CSB?


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## Jonathan Moray

Pablocrespo said:


> I seem to recall also the legato update for css, maybe Alex could chine in here and tell us about the state this update is in?
> 
> I have buttons that move the different legato types in CSS I thought that the sale could be achieved with CSB?



Yes. That's very much possible, at least in Cubase. But it would be more efficient if there was some coherency between the different sections and instruments. It's great that the fast legato is consistent, but it would be nice if all the legatos where -- then you could use the same button to move the notes.

Trumpets, Horns, and Violins 1 playing the same thing? Select all the notes and press the same bottom and they would all be in sync. Now you have to select each instrument and press individual buttons because they all use different legato speeds.


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## axb312

Jonathan Moray said:


> No. Sadly they are different. CSS has the same delay for all instruments; one delay for shorts, and different delays for slow, medium, and fast, but at least this is the same for all instruments in the String family.
> 
> On the other hand; CSB has different delays for all instruments. This was a conscious choice from the team, which I don't understand at all. I see what they mean by different instruments having different legato lengths, trombones take longer to go from note to note than trumpets, but why not make the legato length a common denominator of the highest delay. I don't have a much of a problem with legato delay as some others here seem to have, but that's only if it consistent across the board so that I can move ALL notes a specific amount and have them in perfect time with each other. With CSB you would have to move the notes a different amount compared to the Strings, and even other brass instruments. This seems like a odd choice considering the crazy consistency in the Cinematic Studio series.
> 
> But almost exactly a year ago Alex said, if i remember correctly, that they were working on an update for CSS to move them over to the new legato engine. Not sure what that entails, but I'm hoping for a more consistent delay across the different families, and instruments.



The delay is different for the trumpets only. I believe all the other instruments have the same delay.


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## Jonathan Moray

axb312 said:


> The delay is different for the trumpets only. I believe all the other instruments have the same delay.



Sadly, no. Not from what's stated in the manual. I think Trumpets have the highest deviation and the other instruments have a lower deviation, but they all have slightly different timings to accommodate the nature of the instruments.

Although the difference is probably negligible for most cases.


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## duringtheafter

Sorry if this has already been addressed - I searched through a couple discussions and could not find the answer - but how are folks handling the missing low G# and G on the trumpet (solo and a2) when needing those to sound? I tried remapping but the scripting seems to prevent anything from sounding below the predetermined keyboard area. Any specific instructions for your workaround would be appreciated! (I guess this also applies to the Tuba, bringing it down to C, etc.)


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## eli0s

I detune the instruments by 2 semitones... 
I wish there was a bit more range, especially towards the lower notes...


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## MA-Simon

Yes, detune, then add a midi effect to transpose everything back up in your daw.


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## NeonMediaKJT

Hey, just wanted to share s mock-up I'm currently working on using primarily CSB


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## Artemi

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Hey, just wanted to share s mock-up I'm currently working on using primarily CSB



Murphy, it's you...


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## NathanTiemeyer

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Hey, just wanted to share s mock-up I'm currently working on using primarily CSB





NeonMediaKJT said:


> Hey, just wanted to share s mock-up I'm currently working on using primarily CSB



Sounds incredible, great work man!  i would love to hear about the reverb setup for this. I think finding the best way to get CSB to sit right in a mix is really tricky. But I love the sound of the library and its super easy to use.


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## Karl Feuerstake

Jonathan Moray said:


> No. Sadly they are different. CSS has the same delay for all instruments; one delay for shorts, and different delays for slow, medium, and fast, but at least this is the same for all instruments in the String family.
> 
> On the other hand; CSB has different delays for all instruments. This was a conscious choice from the team, which I don't understand at all. I see what they mean by different instruments having different legato lengths, trombones take longer to go from note to note than trumpets, but why not make the legato length a common denominator of the highest delay. I don't have a much of a problem with legato delay as some others here seem to have, but that's only if it consistent across the board so that I can move ALL notes a specific amount and have them in perfect time with each other. With CSB you would have to move the notes a different amount compared to the Strings, and even other brass instruments. This seems like a odd choice considering the crazy consistency in the Cinematic Studio series.
> 
> But almost exactly a year ago Alex said, if i remember correctly, that they were working on an update for CSS to move them over to the new legato engine. Not sure what that entails, but I'm hoping for a more consistent delay across the different families, and instruments.



Logically the other issue with trombone is that legato 'lengths' do vary. Players don't really think about this so much as it just presents them a technical challenge which hopefully composers don't write poorly for. Playing legato between a low E at the end of the slide and a Bb in first position is going to be much slower than between an A and Bb. It's just the physical mechanics of the horns; the further down the notes are, the more tubing, and thus the slower legato. This is mostly remedied with the introduction of horns that have 'triggers', as these lower the tubing without needing to use the slide, but then you cannot get perfect glissandi when playing on and off the trigger.


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## NeonMediaKJT

NathanTiemeyer said:


> Sounds incredible, great work man!  i would love to hear about the reverb setup for this. I think finding the best way to get CSB to sit right in a mix is really tricky. But I love the sound of the library and its super easy to use.



Thank you  I have just one Reverb that all my instruments go through. It's the most basic set-up. 

Honestly, after posting this, I've extended it some more and layered it with extra samples such as HollywoodBrass. I was having extreme difficulty as I was starting to find the brass to sound a little too thin. CSB is great, but so difficult to mix in with the other orchestral instruments. I find the Trumpet and Trombones start to sound way too up close and thin when going to the top of the modwheel, even when using the far mics. They soundso good in the middle, though.


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## pawelmorytko

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Thank you  I have just one Reverb that all my instruments go through. It's the most basic set-up.
> 
> Honestly, after posting this, I've extended it some more and layered it with extra samples such as HollywoodBrass. I was having extreme difficulty as I was starting to find the brass to sound a little too thin. CSB is great, but so difficult to mix in with the other orchestral instruments. I find the Trumpet and Trombones start to sound way too up close and thin when going to the top of the modwheel, even when using the far mics. They soundso good in the middle, though.


I find the same, have to play around with room/main mics, reverb and precedence to find the right spot for CSB in the mix. I kinda gave up on the low brass in CSB and use JXL for my low brass exclusively now. I still always reach for CSB for horns and trumpets though!


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## NeonMediaKJT

pawelmorytko said:


> I find the same, have to play around with room/main mics, reverb and precedence to find the right spot for CSB in the mix. I kinda gave up on the low brass in CSB and use JXL for my low brass exclusively now. I still always reach for CSB for horns and trumpets though!


I think JXL Trombones are all on my wishlist now.


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## NeonMediaKJT

pawelmorytko said:


> I find the same, have to play around with room/main mics, reverb and precedence to find the right spot for CSB in the mix. I kinda gave up on the low brass in CSB and use JXL for my low brass exclusively now. I still always reach for CSB for horns and trumpets though!


Is it easy to mix the JXL Trombones with the CSB Trumpets and Horns?


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## pawelmorytko

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Is it easy to mix the JXL Trombones with the CSB Trumpets and Horns?


I would say so, not to promote my stuff but I don't know of any better way to show you how they can blend. You can let your ears be the judge in how the brass sounds in these mock ups, low brass is JXL and horns and trumpets are CSB


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## NeonMediaKJT

pawelmorytko said:


> I would say so, not to promote my stuff but I don't know of any better way to show you how they can blend. You can let your ears be the judge in how the brass sounds in these mock ups, low brass is JXL and horns and trumpets are CSB




Those demos are great, thanks! They blend nicely it seems. If you were to buy maybe just 2 of the JXL low brass to combine with CSB, which would you go with? My first thought would be the solo trombone over the a3 as I'd want to do chords with them.


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## pawelmorytko

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Those demos are great, thanks! They blend nicely it seems. If you were to buy maybe just 2 of the JXL low brass to combine with CSB, which would you go with? My first thought would be the solo trombone over the a3 as I'd want to do chords with them.


At first I went with the A3 Trombones, A3 Bass trombones and Tuba, and was super happy that I wanted more. So I also got the Cimbassi and A4 horns, cimbassi is great but I don't really use the horns that much (prefer the CSB horns). I don't have the solo trombone from JXL but it does sound great and I was debating between solo or a3, but since the Bass Trombones come in a3 I thought if I had to pick one set of tenor trombones I best pick the a3.

So my top 2 picks would probably be the a3 trombones and bass trombones, closely followed by the tuba, and then the cimbassi


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## Billy Palmer

EDIT: Fixed. 
I'm an idiot.
This library is very good.


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## David Enos

Just got the library this BF. Overall it's a decent library but I have to admit I'm not impressed with the legato. Any tips on speeding up the legato? I find it very sluggish. Not sure it can be done and, as a general rule, it seems every developer kinda skips over fast, agile legatos when it comes to brass, I don't know why this is. Perhaps it's necessary for the full bloom of sound in the hall? There are some great legatos in WW libraries and some very good string ones too. Very frustrating. Try playing something other than arpeggiated triads (which reinforce the overtone series) and you'll see what I mean (for example, play ascending white keys in 16th note groupings quickly - CDEF, DEFG, EFGA, etc.) Also, if anyone has any EQ tips I'd certainly appreciate it, very new library for me. Thanks!


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## Trash Panda

I’m sure Alex will retool the legatos when he brings the 1.7 updates to CSB and CSW. The question is how long you can stand waiting.


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## Tekkera

David Enos said:


> Just got the library this BF. Overall it's a decent library but I have to admit I'm not impressed with the legato. Any tips on speeding up the legato? I find it very sluggish. Not sure it can be done and, as a general rule, it seems every developer kinda skips over fast, agile legatos when it comes to brass, I don't know why this is. Perhaps it's necessary for the full bloom of sound in the hall? There are some great legatos in WW libraries and some very good string ones too. Very frustrating. Try playing something other than arpeggiated triads (which reinforce the overtone series) and you'll see what I mean (for example, play ascending white keys in 16th note groupings quickly - CDEF, DEFG, EFGA, etc.) Also, if anyone has any EQ tips I'd certainly appreciate it, very new library for me. Thanks!


It's sluggish for two reasons

1) A long forn style legato (125ms to 250ms) is REQUIRED for any lyrical passages to sound good. Shorter than this you just don't get the kind of nuance you expect from actual players. Most of the good legato sampling is somewhere around this range, for like quarter notes and stuff and not much faster usually

2) The library does not contain fast legato intervals recorded. It just doesn't exist, in fact a vast majority of libraries don't have that. The speed is scripted, the samples don't change. So in almost every case what you're asking it to do just isn't going to sound good unless it's a modelled library most likely.


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## boxheadboy50

David Enos said:


> Just got the library this BF. Overall it's a decent library but I have to admit I'm not impressed with the legato. Any tips on speeding up the legato? I find it very sluggish. Not sure it can be done and, as a general rule, it seems every developer kinda skips over fast, agile legatos when it comes to brass, I don't know why this is. Perhaps it's necessary for the full bloom of sound in the hall? There are some great legatos in WW libraries and some very good string ones too. Very frustrating. Try playing something other than arpeggiated triads (which reinforce the overtone series) and you'll see what I mean (for example, play ascending white keys in 16th note groupings quickly - CDEF, DEFG, EFGA, etc.) Also, if anyone has any EQ tips I'd certainly appreciate it, very new library for me. Thanks!


Have you tried using the Marcato articulation? That works way better for fast runs than the standard Legato articulation. You can then toggle the "Repetition Overlay" and velocity to taste, depending on how you want it to sound (eg. a true "slurred" run, or a double-/triple-tongued run).


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## David Enos

Trash Panda said:


> I’m sure Alex will retool the legatos when he brings the 1.7 updates to CSB and CSW. The question is how long you can stand waiting.


That would be great. I can wait


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## David Enos

Tekkera said:


> It's sluggish for two reasons
> 
> 1) A long forn style legato (125ms to 250ms) is REQUIRED for any lyrical passages to sound good. Shorter than this you just don't get the kind of nuance you expect from actual players. Most of the good legato sampling is somewhere around this range, for like quarter notes and stuff and not much faster usually
> 
> 2) The library does not contain fast legato intervals recorded. It just doesn't exist, in fact a vast majority of libraries don't have that. The speed is scripted, the samples don't change. So in almost every case what you're asking it to do just isn't going to sound good unless it's a modelled library most likely.


I understand. It would be great then to _also _provide shorter, faster legato samples for faster passages. IMHO there is no reason that it exists for WW and Str and not for brass. Brass players can play _much_ faster and are much more agile than any libraries I've heard, at least the ones I own. Actually, come to think of it, there is only one library that currently can do this and, ironically, it's free: Norrland Samples Trumpet https://www.norrlandsamples.com/


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## David Enos

boxheadboy50 said:


> Have you tried using the Marcato articulation? That works way better for fast runs than the standard Legato articulation. You can then toggle the "Repetition Overlay" and velocity to taste, depending on how you want it to sound (eg. a true "slurred" run, or a double-/triple-tongued run).


I have but it's still sluggish; better, but sluggish. Unfortunately the overlay sounds too unnatural to me, the staccatos call too much attention to themselves. Am hoping Alex W will update this library with shorter legato scripting as well. As I told Tekkera, there _is_ a library that can play very clean legato, the Norrland Trumpet. Which tells me it's possible.


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## Trash Panda

Tekkera said:


> It's sluggish for two reasons
> 
> 1) A long forn style legato (125ms to 250ms) is REQUIRED for any lyrical passages to sound good. Shorter than this you just don't get the kind of nuance you expect from actual players. Most of the good legato sampling is somewhere around this range, for like quarter notes and stuff and not much faster usually
> 
> 2) The library does not contain fast legato intervals recorded. It just doesn't exist, in fact a vast majority of libraries don't have that. The speed is scripted, the samples don't change. So in almost every case what you're asking it to do just isn't going to sound good unless it's a modelled library most likely.


To my knowledge, none of the CS libraries have different recorded legato speeds (just legato and portomento in CSS/CSSS). It’s all the same transitions with different start points and cross fades.


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## David Enos

Trash Panda said:


> To my knowledge, none of the CS libraries have different recorded legato speeds (just legato and portomento in CSS/CSSS). It’s all the same transitions with different start points and cross fades.


This is my first experience with any of the cinematic studio series. I have listened to the legato demos for CS2, pretty convincing I must say (even if it's trill/spic overlay). Just hoping for the same in a brass library.  (Check out 1:17)


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## Tekkera

David Enos said:


> I understand. It would be great then to _also _provide shorter, faster legato samples for faster passages. IMHO there is no reason that it exists for WW and Str and not for brass. Brass players can play _much_ faster and are much more agile than any libraries I've heard, at least the ones I own. Actually, come to think of it, there is only one library that currently can do this and, ironically, it's free: Norrland Samples Trumpet https://www.norrlandsamples.com/


Yes, you're absolutely correct that brass can play at almost any speed. Most orchestral brass libraries do not have "quick legato" sadly, since they assume the users just will relegate that to selecting staccato. No bueno, give fast transitions please. With any luck, AW will update the rest of the libraries with fast transitions one day.


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## David Enos

Tekkera said:


> Yes, you're absolutely correct that brass can play at almost any speed. Most orchestral brass libraries do not have "quick legato" sadly, since they assume the users just will relegate that to selecting staccato. No bueno, give fast transitions please. With any luck, AW will update the rest of the libraries with fast transitions one day.


Yes! Sure hope he does!


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