# Need For A Sub?



## ryanstrong (Sep 7, 2013)

Hey all - I've been using my JBL LSR 8" monitors for years now and love them. The only thing I'm missing when I'm tracking is being able to "feel" the bass and when I go to mix / master I _always_ have to push the bass down more then what I would think.

I've been used to this now and can get along but I am wondering if adding the LSR sub to my set up will be a benefit?

Do many of you guys have a sub in your set up? What are you guys opinion on subs?

The music I work with is orchestral, hybrid, and indie film (think Jon Brion) - if this helps.


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## Dan Mott (Sep 7, 2013)

How big is your room?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 7, 2013)

Subs do reproduce the low frequencies you're missing, and my Blue Sky system has one that's very well integrated. If you're going to add one, I'd recommend not spending a lot of money on it. A friend of mine, an incredible engineer who mixed lots of albums you've heard of, added an $89 Costco sub to his speakers, and it sounded just fine! 

But subs don't really give you the kick in the chest I think you want. For that you need bigger speakers. There's no way around it.

And I seem to recall Dan-Jay getting angry at me last time I said that the size of the room doesn't have much to do with whether or not you should get a sub. Wasn't that you who quoted wankers on Gearslutz or something? 

Anyway, well-integrated subs can be very good. Badly integrated subs can sound wrong. Cheap subs can sound good, because the quality of the rumble range doesn't seem to be all that important at the levels we play them in project studios.


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## gsilbers (Sep 7, 2013)

JBL LSR 2328P 8" :
Frequency Response: 44 Hz - 18 kHz


no, you do not need a sub. 

maybe try this: 


http://www.ebay.com/itm/V-Trax-2-x-12-x-24-Acoustic-Wedge-Foam-12-pak-24sf-Studio-Soundproofing-/280920709860?pt=US_Acoustical_Treatments&hash=item41682ddae4 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/V-Trax-2-x-12-x ... 41682ddae4)

good treated room will take you a long way 

also, good headphones. 


you say:
"I always have to push the bass down more then what I would think"

if you needed more bass, wouldn't you need to push the bass up?


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## park bench (Sep 8, 2013)

"if you needed more bass, wouldn't you need to push the bass up?"
But he does not hear it, so the over compensation produces a muddy-low-end track.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 8, 2013)

> Frequency Response: 44 Hz - 18 kHz



More than meaningless without ± range, and even then it doesn't tell you about the quality of the response.

It's bad when people other than I post things without knowing what the hell they're talking about.


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## gsilbers (Sep 8, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Sep 08 said:


> > Frequency Response: 44 Hz - 18 kHz
> 
> 
> 
> ...



wow! 

i guess, you can tell use more about these speakers then? or the room the mixes are being done with those speakers?

or maybe i should go and stop at costco or learned to add a more generic comments. 

let me try:

all speakers vary in sound so sometimes you will need a sub and other times you wont. 
i have a friend who mixes billboard top albums and sometimes he used one pair and other times another pair of monitors and both sounded good. 


nah' it felt like an ass hole and didnt help at all the comunity. i guess i should keep trying .


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## gsilbers (Sep 8, 2013)

park bench @ Sun Sep 08 said:


> "if you needed more bass, wouldn't you need to push the bass up?"
> But he does not hear it, so the over compensation produces a muddy-low-end track.



the OP quote said he pushes the bass down but he doesnt feel the bass. so its hard to tell whats happening since that setence sounds like an oxymoron. you push the bass down becuse normally you would hear it too loud. 
and you can hear it too loud due to many factors .

these speakers are marketed as having a good low end response. so who knows, maybe if its muddy then its the room that needs treatment. or musically there is too many instruments in that range. other reviews and comments about these spekaers had positive reviews on the bass side. 

imo its always better to treat the room first. 

also a second reference helps. like heaphones or other spekaers. and also learning the one you have and listening how mixes translate to other systems. 

the jbl sub is not that expensive so im guessing if the OP wanted them he'll get them


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## dgburns (Sep 8, 2013)

I'll wade into this here with some thoughts on subs.

I think the idea of proper calibration is crucial to making any monitoring setup work.I think most rooms have nodes that can be difficult to tame,sometimes some of these problem nodes can be very narrow,so it can become impractical to try and flatten out the room response.That said,I think speaker placement is one aspect you can play with reasoneably easily.Most of us have things in front of the speakers that can create reflections,such as screens,desks and misc gear all around us.Creating a good line of sight to the speakers can really help,so I guess I'm saying a well thought out studio setup can be the biggest factor.
I say all this because mostly the placement of the sub is something many don't think alot about.guys tend to stuff it under the desk near their feet.Problem is that the lower frequencies can take twenty feet to bloom out and be heard more readily.So thinking about sub placement is number one.You can try the unscientific thing by moving it around the room,near the front and finding the place where it seems to sound good at the mix position.The other thing is to properly calibrate the thing.Since I work with guys who mix with the dolby spec,that means the sub gets turned up 10 db louder than your reference level.But then again,in a dolby setup,the sub is a boom channel,and most score should stay the hell away from being pumped into it.
That leaves bass management solutions,where the main speakers are split to send the lower stuff thru the sub with the thinking that they don't reproduce the -100 or so range well.For this,all I can say is I feel a sub,well setup,can infact be helpfull.Keep in mind,though that with the increased bass response,you will excite the room more,with any issues the room has,which can actually cause you to make mix decisions that don't translate as well as you thought would.things like nodes which cancel out certain frequencies and amplify others.As a test,just play a simple sine wave synth patch through the lower registers,one note at a time,and pay attention to the way certain notes jump out,and others get sucked out or are low in volume.This will alert you to where nodes in freq response might be.
subs can help,but a decent setup is still required.And I personally don't think it is a great idea to use headphones to gauge bass response.But they are great for hearing detail if your room is not as quiet as it should be.
sorry for the book


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## Hannes_F (Sep 9, 2013)

Hi Ryan,

having the JBL LSR 4328 I think it is the same model like yours:

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/General/Product.aspx?PId=28&MId=5 (http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/General/P ... d=28&amp;MId=5)

I'm quite proud of having my room treated as good as it can possibly be done giving the conditions in an arduos procedure. The bass response of the speakers (internal room correction switched _off_) plus the room is within +/- 3 dB from 40 Hz on even with only 1/24 oct. smoothing (usually 1/3 oct. is used), with a very even waterfall diagram, decay time etc. 

Still I don't 'feel' the bass. I simply won't happen. I can nicely hear it but don't feel. My guess is that for that chest-thumping effect we'd both really need a sub (with these speakers at least). Hope that helps.

BTW I really enjoyed browsing through your talents on your website, you are a great photographer, too.


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## Oliver_Codd (Sep 9, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Sep 08 said:


> And I seem to recall Dan-Jay getting angry at me last time I said that the size of the room doesn't have much to do with whether or not you should get a sub. Wasn't that you who quoted wankers on Gearslutz or something?



Actually room size *should* be taken in to account when considering whether or not to buy a sub. So Dan had a good reason to speak up. Read what *dgburns* just posted, because if you do decide to buy a sub, it's going to be crucial to understand the things he mentioned. 

I recently upgraded my monitoring setup to a pair of midfields that have a bass cutoff around 25hz. My room is on the small/medium size at 22x13.5x8ft. I purchased a significant amount of bass traps expecting that to take care of most of my bass issues. Sure enough when I started running some tests of my room's frequency response I had a huge 30db+ peak around 30hz, a 30db- null around 60hz and a lot of other horrible stuff going on throughout the bass frequencies. What I decided to do was start shifting my monitors inch by inch around in the space while taking like measurements to see if I could improve these problems. Sure enough a week later (I know, huge pain in the ass) I found the best spot for them, and it reduced these peaks and nulls almost entirely. The funny thing is, the speakers only ended up about a foot further then they were originally. Also note that I no longer sit anywhere near the 38 percent mark in the room , which people tend to use as a rule of thumb. 

Basically my point is, if you want to hear those low frequencies, you'll want to hear them accurately, and in order to do so you'll likely face a challenge ahead of you. You'll want to budget for adequate bass trapping. That aurelex foam someone mentioned won't do a damn thing for sub frequencies. Instead they'll only absorb the highs, making things muddy and less accurate than before. Also, contrary to what NickBatzdorf may believe, those "wankers" over at gearslutz have been an invaluable source of information for me. I'd highly recommend browsing through their forum as well in your quest for better monitoring.


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## Dan Mott (Sep 9, 2013)

Nick

I love you man, I never got angry :D.

However, I do have proof that subs can make things worse in a small room. If anyone would like me to elaborate, just ask. I am very interested in acoustics.

Oliver has done the right thing with his setup. Infact Oliver, if you were able to eliminate those huge peaks and nulls you spoke of entirely, then congradulations on those great results. I have something like a 35dB null at 120Hz on my left speaker. Not nice. It's so tedious getting in the right spot. I have just been stuck where I am at the moment because it's hard to be bothered to go through that process. Though, my room is probably a lot more complex than yours.


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## cc64 (Sep 9, 2013)

dgburns @ Sun Sep 08 said:


> That said,I think speaker placement is one aspect you can play with reasoneably easily.Most of us have things in front of the speakers that can create reflections,such as screens,desks and misc gear all around us.Creating a good line of sight to the speakers can really help,so I guess I'm saying a well thought out studio setup can be the biggest factor.



I would tend to agree with this but then again when i see pictures of some top studios, John Rodd's studio for example, makes me wonder.

http://www.johnrodd.com/gallery/photos/ ... io-day.jpg

Claude


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 9, 2013)

Sorry, I was in a foul mood when I posted.

Of course a bigger room will reproduce lower freqs, and controlled bass trapping is a good thing. But if you're not getting useful response below 50Hz, which is about it for almost every 8" speaker, you can put a sub in a closet-sized room and still hear what's going on better.

I shouldn't get so irritated, I know. If someone wants to believe everything they read on the internet, what's it to me.

Also, I didn't read the first post thoroughly. If JBL makes a sub that goes with that speaker, then that's the one to get.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 9, 2013)

I'm guessing John Rodd has the sub for 5.1 mixing. If I remember right he posted that he doesn't care for them.

And he's right - they usually sound disjointed.


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## cc64 (Sep 9, 2013)

Hi Nick,

i was being a bit off topic. I was reacting to dgburns comment that i quoted regarding our habit of placing stuff in front of speakers and the effect that it probably has on the sound wich makes sense but when you look at some setups like John's and also Hans', they have monitors in front of speakers wich surprises me. 

Best ,

Claude


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 9, 2013)

Ah, okay.

Well, like politics, ergonomics is the art of the possible rather than the ideal.


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## Jack Weaver (Sep 9, 2013)

Monitor obstruction has been a concern of mine for some time. For my current (long time) setup I got especially tall stands from Sound Anchors and that got my speakers completely above my monitors and tilted down appropriately. I'm currently re-doing my room and have been all over the place considering sight lines, distances, etc.

I recently asked John about his monitors being in the way of the woofs on his 3-way ATC speakers. He said it seemed to be no problem. I think the specifics behind his comment of 'no problem' included the caveat making sure there was no obstruction of the midrange and tweeter components. Also if you see his physical setup from several angles there is no obstruction of the Left and Right speakers' tweet and midrange components and very little of their woofs - and likewise the Center woof peeks up gently over his computer monitors. Note that he also has acoustic foam on the back of his computer monitors. 

From an October 2011 SoS article http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct11/articles/studio-sos-1011.htm (http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct11/a ... s-1011.htm) on a Hans Zimmer's setup for a temporary room in a London studio, he's very concerned that the tweet of his Quested 2-ways be unobstructed and at ear level. 

So yeah, it would be nice to not have those nasty computer monitors in the way, but it may not totally ruin the day for you if your woofers are a bit obstructed so long as the mid- and hi-range components are given a clear shot to your ears. 

Now, room acoustics are a different situation and I don't feel like going there now. 

.


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## Hannes_F (Sep 9, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Sep 08 said:


> Wasn't that you who quoted wankers on Gearslutz or something?



No, that was probably me. Thanks for the reminder 

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-b ... -here.html

Regarding monitors in front of speakers: Bass waves creep around barriers, mid- and high frequencies don't. If somebody has his bass speakers halfway behind monitors I'd consider this as an indication of acoustical knowledge.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 9, 2013)

It was a different one from that, Hannes.

Re: speakers around computer monitors, the trick for me with the small monitors is to have them far enough back so that the triangle is bigger and there's more space. The story that they have to be 1M away or whatever it is is...well, I disagree.

I'm not going to post the picture of my Composer's Desk, because it's just too piggy, but that's the trick: wide triangle.

Then I have my large monitors on ceiling-mounted stands pointing down. They're not in as ideal a position due to the realities of my room (window at front), but the computer monitor isn't in the way.

Also, the sub is under my desk.


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## ryanstrong (Sep 9, 2013)

Hey all - thank you for contributing. Forgive me for maybe not being quite clear or not specific enough on my set up.


*REGARDING MY ROOM AND TREATMENT*
My room is 12' x 11', carpeted.

I have consulted with GIK Acoustics (www.gikacoustics.com), gave them my room diagram/specs and they made the recommendations (for my budget) that I currently have as my set up.

I have 4 of their 244 bass traps:
http://gikacoustics.com/product/gik-aco ... bass-trap/

One bass trap BEHIND each of monitors. Then I have two directly behind my chair on the back wall.

I didn't notice a GIANT difference or at least a difference I was expecting - what they did was basically even out the sound in every place in my room. Which is fine and dandy but I don't walk around in my room and mix nor do I really have clients in my space listening.

*CLARIFYING MY ISSUE*

My speakers are not shy, they can get decently loud and have a good bass response when pushed.

My issue is that... when I am tracking I really like to feel and hear the bass amongst all the other frequencies. I love really feeling the Albion Lo Strings patch, or a low sine wave pulse from Omnisphere. Physically my monitors can do this without the need for a sub.

HOWEVER... When I get a mix that FEELS great with the bass nice and _there_ and I bring it out to the trusty car speakers the bass is way to overwhelming. 

SO I've gotten accustomed to always fading down the bass levels to a point where I don't love the feeling but I know in the back of my head it's correct.

*WHAT I WANT*

What I'd like is to get a great mix that FEELS great with the bass all nice and there and have that be CORRECT.

I don't know if my answer is a sub or maybe it's my speaker placement - I really don't care what is the answer, I'd just love an answer.

To answer someone's question about obstruction - there is nothing in front of the speakers. They are placed so that it creates that rule of thumb triangle to my ears where I sit.

Help?


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## ryanstrong (Sep 9, 2013)

Hannes_F @ Mon Sep 09 said:


> Hi Ryan,
> 
> having the JBL LSR 4328 I think it is the same model like yours:
> 
> ...



This is my suspicion as well - they are great speakers and you can nicely hear the bass - just cannot feel it.

And BTW, thank you for checking out my work, and the compliment on my photography!


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## dgburns (Sep 9, 2013)

cc64 @ Mon Sep 09 said:


> dgburns @ Sun Sep 08 said:
> 
> 
> > That said,I think speaker placement is one aspect you can play with reasoneably easily.Most of us have things in front of the speakers that can create reflections,such as screens,desks and misc gear all around us.Creating a good line of sight to the speakers can really help,so I guess I'm saying a well thought out studio setup can be the biggest factor.
> ...



well,his setup obviously works for him.Not sure personally if the speaker designers were thinking the lower speakers would be obstructed when they designed the enclosures.wonder what the difference is with unobstructed lower speakers,if any.
I personally think Oliver is spot on with his trials of moving his speakers around.This is a trick an accoustician named Claude Fortier (SOTA) threw my way.It made so much sense.
guys,keep n mind most residential buildings can't even deal with anything below 40 hz anyway.That stuff will most likely just pass through the gypsum walls like butter.
And fwiw,I have focal twins with sub across the front,but they are clear line of sight ,even though the monitors in front of me are below the speakers,there is def notchng going on.I can move the monitors,and the sound does clear up when there is nothing in front of me .
my dreamsetup is the front wall being a huge display screen,so in the room is me,a keyboard and speakers only.nothing else.must be able to do it. 8) 

oh and some serious tetrad zhivago couches at the back for lounging!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 10, 2013)

> keep in mind most residential buildings can't even deal with anything below 40 hz anyway.That stuff will most likely just pass through the gypsum walls like butter



True, but you can still hear 40Hz and below with a sub even though it's folding back in the room. Listen to Avril Lavigne's "Skater Boi." I forget what freq that rumble is, but it's way, way down there, and if you have a sub you can certainly hear it.


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## dgburns (Sep 10, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Sep 10 said:


> > keep in mind most residential buildings can't even deal with anything below 40 hz anyway.That stuff will most likely just pass through the gypsum walls like butter
> 
> 
> 
> True, but you can still hear 40Hz and below with a sub even though it's folding back in the room. Listen to Avril Lavigne's "Skater Boi." I forget what freq that rumble is, but it's way, way down there, and if you have a sub you can certainly hear it.



somebody please take away his Avril cd please :mrgreen:


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## ryanstrong (Sep 10, 2013)

So what do you guys think here? Is this a room/acoustic/placement issue or just simply not enough juice?

Or do I just need to adjust my mixing expectations and move on?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 11, 2013)

Speaker placement certainly makes a huge difference, and so does the room, but the bottom line is that you have 8" speakers that can move only so much air. 

dgburns, she's a diva! Come on, it's a great album.


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## Oliver_Codd (Sep 11, 2013)

Ryan,

I would highly recommend working on the acoustics of your room before you invest in a sub, based on your experiences. It's clear that you have a huge null in a certain range that needs to be fixed. Some people get confused by this, but nulls are caused by a build up of bass reflections, not a lack of bass coming from your system. A sub obviously won't fix this. 

Take a bunch of measurements and see exactly what's going on so you're not guessing. I use Fuzzmeasure Pro for mac to take my readings, it's about $150 bucks. There are free programs out there as well. No doubt you're going to have to work hard to get things sounding right with your room dimensions, but it's definitely possible, so don't give up! 

When all that's said and done you can go get a sub and start the process all over again :D The joys of home studios /\~O


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## Hannes_F (Sep 11, 2013)

@ Oliver_Codd

Yes absolutely. However if the speakers don't deliver it then the room will not make it either. See my post above - I use the same speakers as Ryan in a room that is quite well treated (if you do measurements yourself then you'll know to read these).

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachme ... _oct_c.jpg

ETC
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachme ... annels.jpg

Waterfall
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachme ... annels.jpg

Decay time
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachme ... annels.jpg


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## Oliver_Codd (Sep 11, 2013)

Hannes,

I totally agree with you. My understanding from Ryan's post was that he was able to produce the desired bass in his studio, yet when he brought his mixes in to the outside world, the bass was overwhelming. Maybe I misunderstood him. If theres a chunk of bass missing in everything he hears in his studio then sure a sub will help. Either way you can't go wrong taking some measurements to get a better idea of what you're dealing with.

You're measurements look great Hannes, good work!


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## germancomponist (Sep 11, 2013)

Oliver_Codd @ Wed Sep 11 said:


> Ryan,
> 
> I would highly recommend working on the acoustics of your room before you invest in a sub, based on your experiences. It's clear that you have a huge null in a certain range that needs to be fixed. Some people get confused by this, but nulls are caused by a build up of bass reflections, not a lack of bass coming from your system. A sub obviously won't fix this.



+1 The room is the most important thing!

Ryan, if you have the chance, try the following: Take your speaker boxes under your arms and look at a well-built studio near you. Connect your speakers there an listen..... . A very big *WOW* is guaranteed! 

Nothing beats a well treated room! The best speakers can sound horrible in a not well treated room. And yes, I know very well of what I am talking about.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 11, 2013)

And I would highly recommend buying a sub or adding some bigger speakers. You've already installed bass traps, and if your mixes are the inverse curve of what you're hearing, you need to crank up the damn bass!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 11, 2013)

Oh, and by the way: the worst speakers sound horrible in every room. Good speakers beat a well treated room * by a million miles.

o=< _-) o=? 




* Gunther's definition of a well-treated room, that is. In my opinion you don't need to call in the architects to make a room work just fine.


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## germancomponist (Sep 11, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Sep 11 said:


> Oh, and by the way: the worst speakers sound horrible in every room. Good speakers beat a well treated room * by a million miles.
> 
> o=< _-) o=?



True. Also as your point about big speakers. 



> * Gunther's definition of a well-treated room, that is. In my opinion you don't need to call in the architects to make a room work just fine.



Sure, you don't need to call in the architects, you also can experiment and experiment. I would at first suggest what I said earlier, visit a good studio and look what they did there in their room .... .


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## ryanstrong (Sep 11, 2013)

Thanks guys - I'm trying to figure out what more I can do with placement as I cannot think logically where else they would go other then where they are at now.

Here is a pic of their placement:
http://i.imgur.com/5UsqDCs.jpg


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 11, 2013)

Nice desk design. A man mostly after my own heart. 

The only question is whether moving the whole desk forward or backward a few inches would sound better (because of the distance from the room surfaces). I'd suggest trying that by propping them up on something.


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## Hannes_F (Sep 11, 2013)

Ryan,

which criteria did you use to determine the hight and vertical position of your absorbers?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 11, 2013)

Yeah, I was going to say that the ones behind the speakers should be lower. That will probably clean things up a lot.


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## ryanstrong (Sep 11, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Sep 11 said:


> Nice desk design. A man mostly after my own heart.


Thank you. I just finished that art piece yesterday!



Hannes_F @ Wed Sep 11 said:


> Ryan,
> 
> which criteria did you use to determine the hight and vertical position of your absorbers?



No criteria 8) GIK just said to place them in those corners, they didn't say positionally wise where!

So you guys think I should move them down then?


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## ryanstrong (Sep 11, 2013)

The desk is about 4 1/4" from the wall too. You think I should try and move it away from the wall more?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 11, 2013)

Try it and see whether you like the sound better.

In my room I have the speakers about 4-1/4' - feet - from the front wall.


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## ryanstrong (Sep 11, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Sep 11 said:


> Try it and see whether you like the sound better.
> 
> In my room I have the speakers about 4-1/4' - feet - from the front wall.



I'd be in the middle of my room if I did that! LOL

I'll mess with it.


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## Dan Mott (Sep 11, 2013)

Ryan

Check out this video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3mRsVge1oE if it hasn't been posted yet.

You should measure what your panels have done. You may not even need panels behind your speakers. Sometimes panels behind the speakers don't do a thing for room modes. However You may notice a little improvement with SBIR, which can always be handy, as well as moving the null to a lower frequency.

Your room is a similar size to my room. Speakers up against the wall could yield better results than having them away from the wall. The reason for this is that because your room is small, the further you move out from the wall, you are increasing the null in the low frequencies. Though, if you don't have any measuring software, you are only doing this blindly. Sometimes what you do with treatment can fool you until you really look at what's going on in a graph.

Bass traps in every corner you can is very handy. I know Nick doesn't like first reflection panels, but personally I like them a lot. It brings focus to the mix spot. 

Small rooms are a mystery.

If you are noticing too much bass when you take your mix out, then perhaps you are lacking bass in your room. However you mentioned that your JBLs have a nice bass response, so maybe you just need to improve your mixing skills?

Get a good pair of headphones with accurate bass and switch between the speakers and the headphones and see what happens. Adjust the bass how you like in the headphones and see if that makes an improvement.

I think it's possible to create great mixes is crappy environments. I have my issues in my room, but I always manage to get a decent sounding mix (not amazing), but good enough so that my mixes translate to an acceptable level on every system I listen on. After listening to so many records in my room and having references, that helps me figuring out where things should sit in my mixes.

I think the most important thing for anyone to mix well, is having a full understanding on what they are hearing in their room. This means that you should measure with a software like I mentioned above. Once you know your problems, then you cannot be fooled and you can beat the room and make better decisions. It wasn't until I got into acoustics, that I notice my mixes translating much better in the outside world. At least from the stuff I have written. Though, then there's always how well sounds are recorded/signal chain/processing, ect that play a big part too. :D


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 11, 2013)

> Sometimes panels behind the speakers don't do a thing for room modes



But they do a lot to soak up excess reverb, and as I've posted before, I'm a believer in the science saying that's the place to do it (because the side walls should be reflective - you get better imaging that way).

Again, reflections from the same angle as the speakers, i.e. the front wall, are what get in the way of imaging. The ones from the side actually help you hear what's going on.

Now, I'm not able to have that kind of set-up in my room, but I don't have the sides muffled (my speakers are toed in to avoid the baffles on the sides of the first 5' of my room). Well, I do have them muffled on the big speakers hanging from the ceiling near the corners, because I don't want to block off the window at the front of my room. And you can hear the difference - the image on the smaller speakers is far clearer...partly because that's what you get when you're closer to them, but partly because of the suboptimal set-up of my big speakers.

Writing quickly - may not be coherent.


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## Dan Mott (Sep 11, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Sep 12 said:


> > Sometimes panels behind the speakers don't do a thing for room modes
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is true. It does soak up the most reverb. I have once covered the whole front wall and it sounded way too dead. I currently have one panel in between my speakers, which is helping with SBIR, but does not help my room modes.

I have a window to the right of me and plasterboard wall to the left. I don't like the idea of two different side surfaces for imaging, so I place panels either side of me and works a treat :D


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 11, 2013)

You're just screwing up the frequency response of the side reflections that way, but to each his own.


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## Dan Mott (Sep 11, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Sep 12 said:


> You're just screwing up the frequency response of the side reflections that way, but to each his own.



Well. You can only guess :D. I have measured my self. I just wanted the same surface type for both sides of me. Also, it's a very comfortable feeling for me personally.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 11, 2013)

Okay, I just listened to Skater Boi. The boom-boom-boom-boom rumble in the A section is 31Hz.

Dan, lots of people muffle the sides. It can sound good, no question. But do you have broadband absorption there? If not, then I'm not guessing, I'm asserting.


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## Dan Mott (Sep 11, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Sep 12 said:


> Okay, I just listened to Skater Boi. The boom-boom-boom-boom rumble in the A section is 31Hz.
> 
> Dan, lots of people muffle the sides. It can sound good, no question. But do you have broadband absorption there? If not, then I'm not guessing, I'm asserting.



Yes, of course. I do have Broadband traps there. In fact, they are also bass traps.


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## Dan Mott (Sep 11, 2013)

Oh.. and speaking of the Avril. I actually like a track on that album - Losing Grip. I'm pretty sure that song is on that one.


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## ryanstrong (Sep 12, 2013)

Looks like I simply need to analyze my room.

Why is he routing a signal out and back in to his card at the first bit of the video? Is that necessary?

I'm going to download this program and see what I get with my current set up.


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## Oliver_Codd (Sep 12, 2013)

ryanstrong @ Thu Sep 12 said:


> Why is he routing a signal out and back in to his card at the first bit of the video? Is that necessary?



It's a test to see if the sound card has a flat frequency response.


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## Dan Mott (Sep 12, 2013)

Ryan. You do not need to worry about the soundcard routing. 

Just skip that part and measure your response.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 12, 2013)

Bear in mind that the response will change as soon as you move the mic 1/4".


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## ryanstrong (Sep 12, 2013)

Just moved my bass traps that pictured in the corners down a couple feet so that my monitors sit center to them and couldn't hear a audible difference.

However, when I sit at mixing position and then compare that to sticking my head in the corner the bass is much thicker in the corners then in mix position.

What does that suggest?

I plan on running Room EQ Wizard tomorrow and will post my results.


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## Dan Mott (Sep 12, 2013)

That suggests that you need bass traps. It may not change the response in the SPL graph, but putting bass traps in those corners will definitely help with decay time. This will make the bass feel tighter. Although it does depend what frequencies are building up because if it's a really low freq, like 40Hz, then thicker traps/EQ could be needed, hence why if you bought a sub, it would make your situation worse, just like it did to me.

Interested to see the results. Use an omni directional mic to measure if possible.


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## ryanstrong (Sep 12, 2013)

Dan-Jay @ Thu Sep 12 said:


> That suggests that you need bass traps. It may not change the response in the SPL graph, but putting bass traps in those corners will definitely help with decay time. This will make the bass feel tighter. Although it does depend what frequencies are building up because if it's a really low freq, like 40Hz, then thicker traps/EQ could be needed, hence why if you bought a sub, it would make your situation worse, just like it did to me.
> 
> Interested to see the results. Use an omni directional mic to measure if possible.



It's really low bass freq if I had to guage it. Weird about traps as I was sticking my head right next to a trap!

Yeah I have the microphone that came with my JBL monitors for room correction.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 12, 2013)

You are always going to hear more bass in the corners. And you're not going to get perfect response everywhere in the room; you want to make it sound good at your listening position.

Bass trapping is a good thing, but you will not get the bass response you're after with 8" drivers.

If you want more bass you need to move more air. Mushy bass is a different problem.

By the way, I don't know these JBLs, but I'll be blunt and say that the LSR 28P is mushy no matter what you do. I almost lost my job for printing that in a magazine shoot-out, JBL was so pissed. But it was the truth. Those speakers had some obvious problems even if lots of big name mastering engineers endorsed them in ads.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 12, 2013)

...which is not to say that JBL doesn't also make some great stuff, and has done over the years. It's just that one model (and possibly others in the series, which is why I bring it up).


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## ryanstrong (Sep 12, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Sep 12 said:


> You are always going to hear more bass in the corners. And you're not going to get perfect response everywhere in the room; you want to make it sound good at your listening position.
> 
> Bass trapping is a good thing, but you will not get the bass response you're after with 8" drivers.
> 
> ...



I have the JBL LSR 4328P:
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LSR4328Ppak/

I personally do not have anything to compare then with other then some crappy Behringer ones I had before them so in that respect I think they do a fantastic job, though I'm certainly open to criticizing that my speakers are not the best.

All that said it is perhaps as Hannes has suggested more then once and what has been my initial suspicion is that I simply need a sub.

I hope I can get this room test to go right tomorrow.


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## ryanstrong (Sep 13, 2013)

I asked this same question to a GIK acoustician and here is his response...

_I absolutely believe it is an acoustic issue. While the 244’s (my bass traps) are certainly helping, the room is pretty close to square so the modes will be very strong. I would move the 244s from the rear wall to the ceiling, then add 2x Monster to replace them in the rear._

Thoughts?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 13, 2013)

It looks like the 4328p is a totally different design, and this was going back quite a few years, so it's probably safe to ignore what I say about the LSR28p.

How about this as a first step: take your speakers into different rooms to get a good picture of what they sound like. That will give you a good understanding of what's going on and of the limits of both your speakers and any room.

What the GIK person says makes sense too, but my advice is to determine which issue is the one that's bothering you most - or whether it's both.

I think it's the speakers, but I'm just some guy posting on the internet.


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## ryanstrong (Sep 13, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Sep 13 said:


> How about this as a first step: take your speakers into different rooms to get a good picture of what they sound like. That will give you a good understanding of what's going on and of the limits of both your speakers and any room.
> 
> What the GIK person says makes sense too, but my advice is to determine which issue is the one that's bothering you most - or whether it's both.
> 
> I think it's the speakers, but I'm just some guy posting on the internet.




Bringing the speakers in to different rooms could be a pain in the rear given I would need to bring my audio card and computer with them if I wanted any sound to come out.

Or do you mean other rooms IE. other studios in the city? Would then need to make friends with a studio owner! Haha.

Honestly I still feel like Hannes may be right, especially given that he owns the same monitors AND he feels he has a well treated room.


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## ryanstrong (Sep 13, 2013)

By the way I will point out that when I run the Room Correction that the JBL monitors come with and I A/B with Room Correction OFF and then ON, when it's OFF the sound of a commercial track sounds muddy in the low end, when I turn it ON it clears up the lowend.

Not sure if that suggests anything.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 14, 2013)

> Bringing the speakers in to different rooms could be a pain in the rear given I would need to bring my audio card and computer with them if I wanted any sound to come out



Plug in anything that makes noise - an iPod for example.

The EQ correction suggests that the problems you're facing are real, but it doesn't really say what's causing them. What is the corrective curve doing, i.e. what freqs is it boosting/cutting and how much?

In any case, muddy low end and lack of low end are two different things. I understood your issue is the latter?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 14, 2013)

Oh - I don't necessarily mean other studios, I mean bring your speakers into the living room, another bedroom, etc., especially a large room. They will sound different, but you'll get a very good sense of what the speakers themselves sound like.

If you hear the same thing, you'll know it's the speakers; if not, it's the room.

I should rephrase my guess: my hunch is that what's bothering you is the speakers, but of course the room is always important too. It's when people start going on about how the room is more important than the speakers that my arguing hackles get all revved up. Yeah I should grow up and just let people be wrong if they want, but it is a fact that beyond a certain level of room - meaning that the room is serviceable - the speakers are far more important.


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## germancomponist (Sep 14, 2013)

And do not forget::The volume setting has a significant influence on the sound. To both, to the speakers as well as to the space itself. Once you have found the best compromise between them it is best to listen always at this same volume level. If it has to be too loud, then you must tweak again.... . 

A wide field!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 14, 2013)

Oh yeah. Pink noise.


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## Dan Mott (Sep 15, 2013)

Dude. Measure Measure Measure. You can't guess. It's a very difficult thing to do by ear. Though, if you have any tracks you know very well, listen to them and see what they sound like.

If you measure, you will see what you are actually hearing. I'd be interested to see your results.


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## germancomponist (Sep 23, 2013)

Oops, I thought I had posted this link before: http://www.genelec.com/learning-center/presentations-tutorials/placingloudspeakers/freestanding/ (http://www.genelec.com/learning-center/ ... estanding/)

Experiment!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 23, 2013)

You can certainly train your ears to identify frequencies (see www.kiqproductions.com), in fact I'd say that all good engineers can do that. But absolute level...I don't think so.

Loud doesn't sound as loud after three minutes.


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## sinkd (Sep 23, 2013)

Check this out:

http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_fr ... ecklow.php

I can definitely hear something before it gets to 20Hz with my JBL LSR 2328Ps.

Never needed a sub.

DS


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## germancomponist (Sep 23, 2013)

Nick, yesterday I did an experiment and the result is awesome!

I had some old crappy box stands and have exchanged it with the bass broad band absorbers, what was standing in the corners. Only 5cm from the wall. The sound is way better than before, especially the low frequencies. Now I have to think new.... .


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 23, 2013)

You're probably hearing octave doubling, Damon. Those speakers couldn't have useful response anywhere near 20Hz.

Also, be very careful with that link. I wouldn't want to run -6dBFS sweeps through my system at all frequencies - I'd be afraid of breaking ears and speakers!


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## germancomponist (Sep 23, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Sep 23 said:


> Loud doesn't sound as loud after three minutes.



+1


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 23, 2013)

Glad to hear it, Gunther.

No really - I am!


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## germancomponist (Sep 23, 2013)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Sep 23 said:


> Glad to hear it, Gunther.
> 
> No really - I am!



Interesting how a box stand can change the sound result so drastically. I have to do more experiments in the future... .


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