# Comparing LASS legato to VSL legato



## PolarBear (Jul 4, 2009)

Hello,

actually I tried to mock up the legato violins from the demo with my current VSL setup, to see where I could improve when getting LASS.

The file here contains 3 snippets:
1.) LASS as presented in the legato demo (see also audiobro.com for more details)
2.) VSL Opus 1 violin ensemble performance legato (forte) + VSL Solo Strings solo violin performance detache (forte)
3.) VSL Opus 1 violin ensemble performance legato (forte, attacks cut a bit via CC11) + VSL Solo Strings solo violin performance legato portamento (forte) + VSL Solo Strings solo violin performance detache (forte)

So 2.) is more like directly played in via keyboard with no further adjustments while 3.) is having some tweaks (could be done even more preceisely).

http://www.box.net/shared/b6tnh7by4y

I'll leave it up to you now without further comment so far. What's your opinion on it? Oh and: PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE - this should not end in a flame war! Both are very fine libs.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 4, 2009)

LASS is much more consistent in tone and the playing is much smoother, less articulated (VSL detaches are to blame?)


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 4, 2009)

Being friends with both parties this demo is a bit rough on VSL. I wonder if there are better options for VSL in presenting the demo this way.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 4, 2009)

LASS does indeed sound better here.

Just for fun, I am just trying the same thing using Kirk Hunter Ruby with the Sonivox SICC strings and I am coming closer than Polar Bear I think.

But Andrew's library has its own lovely sound.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 4, 2009)

Top notch lib like VSL, LASS and others will always complement each other, even within string passages. For one bar or passage one lib sounds better, but for a contrasting passage you need this other lib cause the first one doesn't cut it, especially considering the vast possibilities one encounters when composing or arranging.


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## PolarBear (Jul 4, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Jul 04 said:


> LASS is much more consistent in tone and the playing is much smoother, less articulated (VSL detaches are to blame?)


I agree. The lyrical power is more on the LASS side. The violin solo detache is mixed at -3db, actually as you can see from the untreated version, it's the legato patch itself that's "articulated", the portamento patch I have (as I said, only Opus 1, the Strings VI has a lot more options) is way too slurred for this passage.




Craig Sharmat @ Sat Jul 04 said:


> Being friends with both parties this demo is a bit rough on VSL. I wonder if there are better options for VSL in presenting the demo this way.


Could very well be! It's an example of what I'm capable of. As I understood it, what's presented with LASS is done without a lot of tweaking here. So I tried to make the circumstances the same for me with VSL, in order to see what comes out *for me* if *I* approach this. And as as I said to Ned, I'm sure even I'd be able to do more with the bigger Strings VI package than with my Opus 1. I'm trying to find reasons to spend the money elsewhere but I'm not having lots of reasons... 

Asher, that would be fun to see.

Guy, yes, thanks. That statement fits on about any thread around here.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 4, 2009)

PolarBear @ Sat Jul 04 said:


> Guy, yes, thanks. That statement fits on about any thread around here.



I really made that statement to not encourage a generalization of an isolated test like this which is more or less fair.


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## PolarBear (Jul 4, 2009)

Ok, so I took Ned's and Craig's comments and tried a different approach which I also do for legato stuff in VSL sometimes. Do you think this is a better example of VSL?

1.) LASS again, 1st, divisi A, B and C combined (full patch)
2.) VSL example of mine revisited with Opus 1 and Solo Strings

http://www.box.net/shared/skqnbbrhl5

Thanks for listening and commenting!


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 4, 2009)

Better. VSL still sounds less fluid in the legato, and the tone has more variety in its colour/harmonic content. VSL sounds closer, less ambient, less in-a-room than LASS. Still, both are great.

But, wait a minute... what do I know?! :oops: :shock:


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## dcoscina (Jul 4, 2009)

I think the real think here is the tuning. I think the slight variations in intonation/bowing in Andrew's library is the real reason why it sounds much better than anything out there so far. Sampled strings tend to sound synthy when they are too perfect in terms of pitch and intonation uniformity. The plain fact is that having 18 violins or 24 violins playing without frets does lead to small variations in pitch which is why strings sound so beautiful in a live setting. Well, if they are played well. I remember hearing a community orchestra massacre Dvorak because the string section sucked- it was like a Charles Ives version of Dvorak's 9th Symphony. Ugh, quarter tone hell...


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## Niah (Jul 4, 2009)

I'm also not sure if the comparison is fair

we are talking about an older lib (VSL) vs LASS which is completely new. If LASS didn't sounded better than VSL legato or any other lib using the sips script, it would have failed IMO.

Also the recording approach of each library is different as we all know it. And to me the sound has also alot to do with how natural the legato sounds. So it's not just a question of functionality to me. The way the library was conceived from the ground up (recording, etc...) all that contributes to how the legato sounds.


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## dcoscina (Jul 4, 2009)

the timing of the vibrato also makes a difference. Most libs have it too heavy and makes it sound very pitch wobbly and not expressive. LASS seems to have solved that problem. Good one Andrew!


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 4, 2009)

LASS's expression is user controllable so that's a big plus.

I like LASS in this demo but I think VSL handled it fairly well.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 4, 2009)

Niah @ Sat Jul 04 said:


> I'm also not sure if the comparison is fair
> 
> we are talking about an older lib (VSL) vs LASS which is completely new. If LASS didn't sounded better than VSL legato or any other lib using the sips script, it would have failed IMO.
> 
> Also the recording approach of each library is different as we all know it. And to me the sound has also alot to do with how natural the legato sounds. So it's not just a question of functionality to me. The way the library was conceived from the ground up (recording, etc...) all that contributes to how the legato sounds.



Right, and it might not hurt to show a bit of sensitivity, (although I don't think it needs any sympathy holding up their end very well) to a library that helped us get work and recognition for all these years. Yes, it's a business for them, but we greatly benefited from it as well.


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## Jack Weaver (Jul 4, 2009)

I've really enjoyed using VSL the past few years. It's been great stuff. 

However time and the free marketplace moves on. 

I still have the VSL WW and brass to look forward to each day. 

Herb & Co. are extremely smart people. They can come up with some answer to this after some time. I like the Vienna Instrument interface in general. But an overall concept re-grooving is going to be necessary to make the quantum leap necessary to get back into the game - along with some new samples. 

They've thought outside of the box before. Let's see if they can do it again.

I sure look forward to VE Pro. It'll help spread my LASS samples around. 


.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 4, 2009)

The competition is good for us. Maybe next we'll hear of the Swedish True Strings?


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## tmhuud (Jul 4, 2009)

Guy Bacos @ Sat Jul 04 said:


> Right, and it might not hurt to show a bit of sensitivity, (although I don't think it needs any sympathy holding up their end very well) to a library that helped us get work and recognition for all these years. Yes, it's a business for them, but we greatly benefited from it as well.



Very well said Guy. 

And Andrew - Congratulations on your labor of love. You've done a truly stellar job with LASS. Much success to you and to the end user.

Cheers,


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## tripit (Jul 4, 2009)

Guy Bacos @ Sat Jul 04 said:


> Right, and it might not hurt to show a bit of sensitivity, (although I don't think it needs any sympathy holding up their end very well) to a library that helped us get work and recognition for all these years. Yes, it's a business for them, but we greatly benefited from it as well.



Agreed. And as other have pointed out I think VSL holds up very well indeed. It should compliment LASS nicely. 

In general, I think that the tunning and the section stereo spread in LASS have a big contributing factor. The sound is spread out much more.


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## Thonex (Jul 4, 2009)

tripit @ Sat Jul 04 said:


> In general, I think that the tunning and the section stereo spread in LASS have a big contributing factor. The sound is spread out much more.



I'm not sure if this got lost in all the other LASS specs, but LASS can be panned because of the special micing techniques used. So, although it was recorded in orchestral perspective, you can pan confidently and carve out your own sonic landscape. 

I think most of the demos left the panning alone though. I know that on my tutorial demos, that they were left alone.

Cheers,

Andrew K


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## tripit (Jul 4, 2009)

Thonex @ Sat Jul 04 said:


> tripit @ Sat Jul 04 said:
> 
> 
> > In general, I think that the tunning and the section stereo spread in LASS have a big contributing factor. The sound is spread out much more.
> ...



That's one (of the many) things I really like about LASS - the natural spread created by the divisi sections being in their own spaces. Being able to pan if needed is also great, although I think I would pretty much leave them alone.


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## lulgje (Jul 4, 2009)

LASS sounds better to me on this demo, but I am not sure that this is the best that can be done with VSL.

What I really would be interested to know is that how / where did you get your copy of LASS. Is it out yet?

Guys, please stop with the tease


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## Mahlon (Jul 4, 2009)

I think you've done a very good job emulating this phrase with VSL. Both libraries sound convincing.

Mahlon


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## dcoscina (Jul 4, 2009)

I think both are pretty good although the LASS version sounds richer. And I like the vibrato a bit better. A little more fluid and organic...


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## Dave Connor (Jul 4, 2009)

Opus I is not VSL's flagship strings but actually an early less expensive version with stretched samples. Even so they held there own. Also consider that the_ forte_ strings are deliberately strong attacks and therefore slightly less legato. This was before you could cross-fade between several velocity layers.

The same test with Appassionata I strings would be a more accurate comparison I would think. 

Yes the LASS do sound good there.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 4, 2009)

Earlier I had tried that passage with appa 1, it sounded full and convincing, but I then preferred not to get caught up in these comparisons, at least not on a public forum.


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## Olias (Jul 4, 2009)

The VSL portamento sounds like synth portamento. I imagine the fact that LASS doesn't (at least to me) is due to recording players separately.


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## RiffWraith (Jul 4, 2009)

Ok, I said why not LASS vs. EWQL Plat? I put some verb on both (the same) - figured most are probably going to add some verb to LASS, and the extra verb actually helps the EW RTs blend a bit better.

http://www.jeffreyhayat.com/LASS-EW.mp3

Thoughts?


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## tripit (Jul 4, 2009)

RiffWraith @ Sat Jul 04 said:


> Ok, I said why not LASS vs. EWQL Plat? I put some verb on both (the same) - figured most are probably going to add some verb to LASS, and the extra verb actually helps the EW RTs blend a bit better.
> 
> http://www.jeffreyhayat.com/LASS-EW.mp3
> 
> Thoughts?



I like LASS better by a long shot. First off the EW sound image moves around much more as notes are played, it swings left and right and doesn't stay where it should. That also effects the way the attacks sound, since it makes things sound even more disconnected. That's always been a big issue for me. Nothing sounds more wrong then when phasing or unbalanced stereo samples make the section sound like it's floating around the room. 

Also the detail isn't as good. LASS is richer sounding, EW more cloudy. You hear nice elements coming out of LASS, where EW sounds more static. The transitions in LASS are better as you would expect. But, EW isn't known for it's legato ability, so...


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## Unison (Jul 5, 2009)

For me, just listening to the very last note of the phrase gives a great indication to the superior qualities of LASS. The LASS vibrato is alive and rich, where the VSL impression is way too uniform and sterile. Plus the way the note ends, is so much more smooth and nice in LASS. Is that BTW release samples we hear?

Are the legato samples sustain looped?


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 5, 2009)

you have the option of using the release samples or not with a simple click. Legatos are looped. The ends of phrases can be naturally played between the use of cc11 and cc1 which deal with volume and vibrato respectively.


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## Christian Marcussen (Jul 5, 2009)

I think VSL _Opus_ holds up very well in this examples. LASS does sound very nice, with nicer air and vibrato. I do however find the 'out of tune' sound a tad too much. I know it's part of the charm, but this it's a bit overdone to my tastes. Listen to a top recording by a top composer using a top orchestra... It will sound far more in tune. 

The short samples though, displayed using art, blows VSL out of the water as far as I can tell. Sounds very convincing!


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## PolarBear (Jul 5, 2009)

Resumee: No other library than LASS so far evoked more controversary opinions on the very same details of a clip. That's a good thing IMHO!

Yet I agree with most, that we shouldn't get caught up in dissecting the smallest detail, as a) my setup is not a full VSL one, b) my chops could be better and c) it's just a very short clip, it probably would look way different for a whole piece. Actually I'd not feel up to the task to do Colin O'Malleys demo(s) with the combinations I used.

Cheers! :D

PS: The second "improvement" I posted later on wasn't done with an ensemble legato patch btw.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 5, 2009)

Cool.


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## germancomponist (Jul 5, 2009)

hm........


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## Stevie (Jul 5, 2009)

Guy Bacos @ Sat Jul 04 said:


> Right, and it might not hurt to show a bit of sensitivity, (although I don't think it needs any sympathy holding up their end very well) to a library that helped us get work and recognition for all these years. Yes, it's a business for them, but we greatly benefited from it as well.



This sounds like VSL being an old dangerously ill granny sleeping in bed, that should better not be woken up, because she could be dead anytime. 
Honestly, in this forum everyone is free to compare A to B and to take part into a discussion. Did actually EW show sensitivity when Andrew was about to announce the release of LASS? No, it was pure calculation. And it's okay that way, that's how free market economy works. The same principle applies to scoring gigs, pitches, etc...

But anyway, I don't think that VSL needs protection here. They do very good stuff.
Further more the point is: no composer in this forum will ever use only one single library. We are all striving for better sounds and we do achieve this by combining, tweaking, templating, etc...

So what I am about to say is: every library out there has its right to exist.
No library is perfect, but has its very own weaknesses and strenghts. 
The composer decides on how he combines his tools to get the sound he is satisfied with.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 5, 2009)

Not disagreeing with this, the point was that the comparison using a very isolated segment wasn't really fair.


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## lux (Jul 5, 2009)

PolarBear @ Sun Jul 05 said:


> lux @ Sun Jul 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Only comparison is using same midi snippet on isolated section and with same reverb. All library have levels of depth that can reveal how good they are, just in the right hands.
> ...



well i no meant it as a critique to your abilities, absoutely. Its just that i feel you should have used yourself LASS to have a pretty fair comparison. Its not a matter of good and bad


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## Stevie (Jul 5, 2009)

Of course, the comparison wasn't fair. I don't think this was meant to be a "professional comparison" anyway. He was just curious how it would sound if he used VSL (very quick and dirty) and asking for opinions about the sound.


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## Thonex (Jul 5, 2009)

Stevie @ Sun Jul 05 said:


> So what I am about to say is: every library out there has its right to exist.
> No library is perfect, but has its very own weaknesses and strenghts.
> The composer decides on how he combines his tools to get the sound he is satisfied with.



Well said!!


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 5, 2009)

Agree, and that's why I said the same thing at the beginning of this thread.


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## Peter Alexander (Jul 5, 2009)

In doing such comparisons, some points must be made to put the comparison into proper perspective. Opus 1 was originally a library (not a virtual instrument player) with the Performance tool available as a separate program to be installed on the PC only. It was 16bit.

Opus 1 represents the older, and discontinued, GigaStudio technology. 

Another important point is that with VSL, there has never been a scripting language to learn. It's closed, not open. 

The original Performance Tool put the EQ burden on the composer/engineer with either their own EQ or the EQ within GigaStudio. 

When doing comparisons, the features of the software instrument players must be taken into account because it's the features of the virtual instrument that are the enabling tools to create the resultant sound. Native Instruments has that PLUS the added value of having a sampler which adds even more features for a programmer to work with. Hence, Andrew's posted recommendation that LASS owners upgrade to K3.5.

One thing not taken into account is that Andrew knows his instrumentation and orchestration and that certainly figured in as to how he approached the way he wanted to script his library, and the end results achieved. He knows the "book" aspects of it, but more importantly, he has many hours on the scoring stage with live strings to know the sound he's attempting to achieve. 

This is a much different perspective from the programmer who only knows strings from CD or MP3 listening and has spent little live time in front of a live orchestra, whether on the scoring stage or in the concert hall.

All of these are cumulative factors that go into the Kontakt scripting programming and the sound that Andrew achieved with LASS.

As a point of disclosure, I own a number of the Vienna Instruments and I wouldn't trade them for the world. The move to the Vienna Instrument was a great move. And the release of the Vienna Suite is another good move to support the customer with a product that can be used with any library, along with the Vienna Ensemble which will be great for multiple machines with its ability to work with any virtual instrument, including Kontakt and LASS.


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## Hans Adamson (Jul 5, 2009)

The LASS version sounds perfectly authentic to me, and beautifully played as well. The mockup using VSL doesn't compare very well. Maybe Guy Bacos can use his mockup skills to defend VSL's honor?


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## Vision (Jul 5, 2009)

Craig Sharmat @ Sat Jul 04 said:


> LASS's expression is user controllable so that's a big plus.



I'm really looking forward to this. End result is a much less predictable sound.


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## PolarBear (Jul 5, 2009)

Thanks for going way OT on this topic, PA. 16bit... ohrly? CD vs MP3? Please, for any further reply: only ON topic, thanks. (Just for the sake of it, I used the K2 version)

For my points in a nutshell: see my post above.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 5, 2009)

Hans Adamson @ Sun Jul 05 said:


> The LASS version sounds perfectly authentic to me, and beautifully played as well. The mockup using VSL doesn't compare very well. Maybe Guy Bacos can use his mockup skills to defend VSL's honor?



How about a rumble?


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## PolarBear (Jul 5, 2009)

Hans Adamson @ Sun Jul 05 said:


> The LASS version sounds perfectly authentic to me, and beautifully played as well. The mockup using VSL doesn't compare very well. Maybe Guy Bacos can use his mockup skills to defend VSL's honor?


Thanks... Charming  :D


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## Hans Adamson (Jul 5, 2009)

PolarBear @ Sun Jul 05 said:


> Hans Adamson @ Sun Jul 05 said:
> 
> 
> > The LASS version sounds perfectly authentic to me, and beautifully played as well. The mockup using VSL doesn't compare very well. Maybe Guy Bacos can use his mockup skills to defend VSL's honor?
> ...


Didn't mean to offend you Polar, sorry... But judging from these demos, LASS is in its own league. Is it possible for VSL to play in this league if the demos were programmed by VSL's own demo maker?


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## Niah (Jul 5, 2009)

To me the point is not about how close you can get to LASS with other libraries by playing a simple melody like it was demonstrated on the layering tutorial.

It's how good it sounds overall in a "real" musical situation.

Would those demos still sound as good as they do using just the EW or VSL strings?

LASS seems like a culmination of all the achievements of the past and a few other innovative features.


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## Chris Hein (Jul 5, 2009)

Niah @ Sun Jul 05 said:


> ... how close you can get to LASS ....


Haha, would be interesting to hire some real musicians and see how close the can get to LASS.


Chris Hein


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## dcoscina (Jul 5, 2009)

Niah @ Sun Jul 05 said:


> Chris Hein @ Sun Jul 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Niah @ Sun Jul 05 said:
> ...



Well, I dunno about real musicians but as composers, yes, we have just gotten another couple pegs closer to delivering a true string sound from our computers. Real string players in community groups normally represent the worst part of said group with the tuning all over the place. Many is a time I have heard a friend's piece massacred because of a poor performance. So, yeah, the better the samples get, the better our music will sound.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 5, 2009)

Niah @ Sun Jul 05 said:


> Chris Hein @ Sun Jul 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Niah @ Sun Jul 05 said:
> ...



Here in L.A the level of even the average string players is just so high that no library can touch it, as even Andrew has conceded.


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## Chris Hein (Jul 5, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Sun Jul 05 said:


> Chris Hein @ Sun Jul 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Haha, would be interesting to hire some real musicians and see how close the can get to LASS.
> ...


I know, and they look better. 
I just said, it would be interesting to hear.

Chris Hein


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## Niah (Jul 5, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Sun Jul 05 said:


> Niah @ Sun Jul 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Chris Hein @ Sun Jul 05 said:
> ...



And am sure they are also super affordable as well


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## Niah (Jul 5, 2009)

Chris Hein @ Sun Jul 05 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sun Jul 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Chris Hein @ Sun Jul 05 said:
> ...



yea lets do that, now there's a fair comparison ! real strings vs LASS...absolutely !

~o) (o) :roll: :x :| :? :shock:


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## CFDG (Jul 6, 2009)

Well. http://marcelrouste.com/LASS_VSLAPP.mp3 (LASS=&gt;VSL App)...

Christian


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## lulgje (Jul 6, 2009)

Well, now that the LASS has made its appearance and more demos are on the company's website I'm not sure anymore about this library simply because of the time being released, quality, requirements and the advertised price tag.

Quality: The quality of the library - based on the spec info and the demos - seems to be and sounds good. But is the difference in quality with other direct competitors so obvious that it would justify the price and give this library the "must have no matter what" status? Personally, I am not convinced... 

Price: $1,000 (special offer!) for a string section library is a serious amount of money to be payed. As a matter of fact $1,000 is a serious amount of money to be payed for anything in today's economy, regardless of the orchestral section.

EW Platinum Orchestra Plus is selling for the amazing price of $995, a huge bargain for the quality and size of this library, and on top of it, by buying the Platinum Plus you get another item of equal or lesser value for free from EW, bringing the price to 1/2 price ($495).

Tonehammer sells their whole exceptional catalogue for $775, granted it's not strings, but it is an amazing sound collection and it gives you numerous quality percussive instruments and cover those needs.

Another drawback in terms of $$$ is that in order to fully take advantage and use LASS two computers are needed. So, $1,000 + two computers = you do the math.

Timing: LASS seems to have come out a bit too late, EW announced the Hollywood Strings. Even though it's going to take some time until the release of the EW Hollywood Strings, this is something that for a buyer like me - especially if I have to shell out one grand for LASS - would be wise to wait and see what EW will have to offer. EW is a company that has been around for some time now and with a guaranteed product support and track record. I am sure that VSL will have to bring something out soon in order to keep its place as one of the leading orchestral sample providers, it's a buyer's market. In LASS' case, what makes it very special is the fact that the creator of it is a composer himself. However, this fact may work at times against it. In one of the forum threads Andrew himself was justifying and linking the delays in part with his engagements and creative deadlines as a composer. For me this would be a case for concern in terms of support, updates and so on, once I am on a deadline I cannot stress out also about someone's else deadlines.

I don't want to sound too critical to what seems to be a great addition to the string libraries out there. Putting my thoughts out there maybe will have other people express their opinions and make it easier to change my mind and start thinking about shelling out $1,000 by the 20th of July or $1,200 after that for LASS.

Peace!


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 6, 2009)

CFDG @ 6/7/2009 said:


> Well. http://marcelrouste.com/LASS_VSLAPP.mp3 (LASS=&gt;VSL App)...
> 
> Christian



Wow, merci Christian! So now it's just a question of taste. A great time for string writing, I think! o/~ o/~ o/~ o/~ o/~


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## Hannes_F (Jul 6, 2009)

FWIW I think all demos in this thread are done nicely but the LASS legato version is still the most convincing.

That being said I wished that all the examples were dryer, especially when it comes to legato questions. It is tempting to pour big reverb sauce over legato strings but that is not what we really want, right?

I guess the advance of LASS would be even more obvious with less reverb (for all the demos in this thread).


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 6, 2009)

lulgje @ 6/7/2009 said:


> Price: $1,000 (special offer!) for a string section library is a serious amount of money to be payed. As a matter of fact $1,000 is a serious amount of money to be payed for anything in today's economy, regardless of the orchestral section.



Not if you make your living from writing soundtracks. I figure I use strings on every single gig I do, so this lib pays itself off the first time it nails me a pitch.



> EW Platinum Orchestra Plus is selling for the amazing price of $995, a huge bargain for the quality and size of this library, and on top of it, by buying the Platinum Plus you get another item of equal or lesser value for free from EW, bringing the price to 1/2 price ($495).



Andrew is no EW in terms of volume. As well, some of us appreciate quality over quantity. Not to say that EW's stuff is not top quality, just that again, for some of us, the number of instruments offered has little to do with whether we buy a library or not. Consider a great piano lib, or a solo cello lib for 200 bucks.



> Tonehammer sells their whole exceptional catalogue for $775, granted it's not strings, but it is an amazing sound collection and it gives you numerous quality percussive instruments and cover those needs.



Apples and oranges, IMO.



> Another drawback in terms of $$$ is that in order to fully take advantage and use LASS two computers are needed. So, $1,000 + two computers = you do the math.



Actually, I have been doing the math, and you know what? It's possible to buy 2 second-hand desktop monsters (say from 2008) for the same price as a new one today. No big deal, unless music-making is a hobby for you.



> Timing: LASS seems to have come out a bit too late, EW announced the Hollywood Strings.



So EW announces a string library to be delivered _some time in the future_, and Andrew's release *tomorrow* is too late? :shock: ~o) (o) 



> In LASS' case, what makes it very special is the fact that the creator of it is a composer himself. However, this fact may work at times against it. In one of the forum threads Andrew himself was justifying and linking the delays in part with his engagements and creative deadlines as a composer. For me this would be a case for concern in terms of support, updates and so on, once I am on a deadline I cannot stress out also about someone's else deadlines.



Off the top of my head, I seem to recall that most devs are also composers. That's a plus, in my book.



> I don't want to sound too critical to what seems to be a great addition to the string libraries out there.



So then how's about balancing your critique with some positive comments?


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## lux (Jul 6, 2009)

Despite the fact I like a lot Andrew's effort, and stated it both personally with him and publicy, i think it's a bit of a probably too defensive approach against lulgje.

I agree with a couple of his points, fact is that the world isnt done just by composer who make a living out of soundtracks but also by those who "try" to make a living out of that. of course targeting is something every product should have, and Lass targets clearly according with its proper name. but stating his affordability and global marketability as a matter of fact isnt probably a real service to truth.

as a form of balancement for all the deserved praise i feel we should leave lulgje free to express himself out of his mind.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 6, 2009)

This reminds me of the discussions around the launch of Symphobia, no? There are many alternatives to spending a grand on a string library. I'm just saying that if you can't afford it because you don't make your living from using string libraries and such, that's OK - there are many other options.

Anyways, I don't see how engaging in a discussion with Lulgje from an opposite position is some kind of blocking of his points. It's just my opinion.


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## lux (Jul 6, 2009)

well, honestly i cant say that 100% of the posts about Lass on this forum were exactly engaging..

Btw, pricing is a very important part of a product launch. No matter what we bunch of VI members say, there are rules out there. And i believe the pricing has been taken after more than a thought with Lass as with other products. And, on the long run, it makes a difference.

I'm not goin to open that same can of worms, but as a matter of fact East West stuff remains top sellers also due to a prolongued and smart price policy. Whatever we can think of it. 

So, as a personal belief, speaking about price is not off topic at all.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 6, 2009)

lux @ 6/7/2009 said:


> So, as a personal belief, speaking about price is not off topic at all.



OK, you're 100% right.


BTW, I'm a Mac guy, so I'm used to defending more expensive computers even though PCs have been everywhere and half the price (kind of like EW, no?) since I started making music with them in 1987. :wink:


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## lux (Jul 6, 2009)

hehe, i'm a classic PC guy instead, and started making music with a self assembled x386 from abandoned parts of some friends' small company 

Anyway, i see your point about quality, at the same time i think quality has been stated a lot on those threads. And perhaps having a mixed feedback regarding pricing could help better understand a potential market. After all we all want Lass to sell like hotcakes out there.

Luca


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## Hannes_F (Jul 6, 2009)

Popcorn please! :mrgreen:


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## Ashermusic (Jul 6, 2009)

lux @ Mon Jul 06 said:


> hehe, i'm a classic PC guy instead, and started making music with a self assembled x386 from abandoned parts of some friends' small company
> 
> Anyway, i see your point about quality, at the same time i think quality has been stated a lot on those threads. And perhaps having a mixed feedback regarding pricing could help better understand a potential market. After all we all want Lass to sell like hotcakes out there.
> 
> Luca



I am sure Andrew thought a lot about the pricing and consulted many people and arrived at the price he did by factoring in a an effort/reward balance.

Presumably, 50 sales at $999 brings him the same profit as 100 sales at $499, maybe even a little more as it is less packaging costs. It is not his responsibility to make it as affordable to as many people as possible. This is not AIDS vaccine.

As to how much it brings to the table in addition to or insetad of other librarues, that is subjective, not empirical. As always, the marketplace will tell him how well he did.


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## lux (Jul 6, 2009)

Hannes_F @ Mon Jul 06 said:


> Popcorn please! :mrgreen:



too late, we're already having a beer


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## lux (Jul 6, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Mon Jul 06 said:


> lux @ Mon Jul 06 said:
> 
> 
> > hehe, i'm a classic PC guy instead, and started making music with a self assembled x386 from abandoned parts of some friends' small company
> ...



well, sure.

I'm still stating the right to discuss about price of sample libraries though.


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## lulgje (Jul 6, 2009)

Not if you make your living from writing soundtracks. I figure I use strings on every single gig I do, so this lib pays itself off the first time it nails me a pitch.

AS A MATTER OF FACT I DO MAKE MY LIVING WRITING SOUNDTRACKS, AND NOT IN CANADA BUT IN L.A. THE POINT IS THAT THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO RECORD ON LASS OTHER THAN 4 BARS OF A COMPARISON FOR THE PAST 2 WEEKS AND FINALLY A FEW AUDIO DEMOS FOR THE PAST FEW DAYS. NO VIDEO DEMOS AT ALL TO EXPLAIN IN DETAIL THE PRODUCT. 


Andrew is no EW in terms of volume. As well, some of us appreciate quality over quantity. Not to say that EW's stuff is not top quality, just that again, for some of us, the number of instruments offered has little to do with whether we buy a library or not. Consider a great piano lib, or a solo cello lib for 200 bucks.

WELL, VOLUME COMES WITH QUALITY, SUPPORT AND MOST IMPORTANTLY PRICE. THE QUESTION THAT YOU'RE NOT ADDRESSING, BUT INSTEAD ARE GIVING LECTURES, IS HOW BIG OF A DIFFERENCE THERE ACTUALLY IS IN BETWEEN LASS AND THE REST OF WHAT'S THERE, BE THAT EW OR VSL OR OTHERS. AND THEN, IS THIS DIFFERENCE IN QUALITY SO BIG TO JUSTIFY THE PRICE.

IF YOU WERE SO MUCH INTERESTED IN THE ULTIMATE SOUND QUALITY OF A STRING SECTION I'D SUGGEST TO YOU A PIECE OF PAPER, A PENCIL AND A REAL STRING SECTION. WITH THE ASKING PRICE OF $1400 FOR LASS, CONVERT IT IN CANADIAN DOLLARS, IT WOULD PROBABLY GIVE YOU CAN $1,700 - $1,800. IT COULD BE ENOUGH TO HIRE A COMPACT REAL STRING SECTION AND DO WHAT A COMPOSER SHOULD DO. 




> Tonehammer sells their whole exceptional catalogue for $775, granted it's not strings, but it is an amazing sound collection and it gives you numerous quality percussive instruments and cover those needs.



Apples and oranges, IMO.

SEEMS THAT YOU'RE THE ONLY ONE THAT HAS NOT BEEN AFFECTED BY THE GLOBAL CRISIS. EITHER WAY, HAPPY FOR YOU.




> Another drawback in terms of $$$ is that in order to fully take advantage and use LASS two computers are needed. So, $1,000 + two computers = you do the math.



Actually, I have been doing the math, and you know what? It's possible to buy 2 second-hand desktop monsters (say from 2008) for the same price as a new one today. No big deal, unless music-making is a hobby for you.

THAT'S EXACTLY MY POINT. WHY DO I HAVE TO GO AND BUY TWO SECOND HAND COMPUTERS JUST TO RUN A STRING SECTION LIBRARY ANYWAYS? DON'T I HAVE ENOUGH FOR GIGAS, FOR THE SEQUENCER, FOR ALTIVERB, FOR VST'S?

IF YOU WERE A PROFESSIONAL THAT REALLY DOES THIS FOR A LIVING, YOU'D SEE MY POINT IN USING THE MONEY FOR USED COMPUTERS AND SO ON AND HIRE REAL MUSICIANS. IT IS TRUE, IN TODAY'S WORLD EVERYONE WITH A PC CALLS HIMSELF A COMPOSER.




> Timing: LASS seems to have come out a bit too late, EW announced the Hollywood Strings.



So EW announces a string library to be delivered _some time in the future_, and Andrew's release *tomorrow* is too late? :shock: ~o) (o) 

ANDREW'S LIBRARY COMES OUT ON THE 20TH OF JULY, ORDERS CAN BE PLACED FROM TOMORROW, GET YOUR DATES RIGHT FIRST.

WITH WHAT I CAN SEE FROM YOUR THOUGHTS YOU DO SEE LASS EQUAL TO JESUS CHRIST COMING DOWN TO EARTH IN THE FORM OF A STRING SECTION TO SAVE US ALL. 

DEAR FRIEND, IT'S ONLY A TOOL, THAT YES, IT MAY BE AMAZING TODAY - EVEN THOUGH WE HAVN'T EVEN SEEN IT YET HOW IT WILL PERFORM IN REAL LIFE - BUT IT'S PURPOSE IS TO FILL A NEED TODAY UNTIL SOMETHING BETTER COMES OUT TOMORROW. AND FOR $1,000 OR $1,200 OR $1,400 I DON'T THINK I'LL BE THE ONLY ONE THINKING TWICE ABOUT GETTING IT.




> In LASS' case, what makes it very special is the fact that the creator of it is a composer himself. However, this fact may work at times against it. In one of the forum threads Andrew himself was justifying and linking the delays in part with his engagements and creative deadlines as a composer. For me this would be a case for concern in terms of support, updates and so on, once I am on a deadline I cannot stress out also about someone's else deadlines.



Off the top of my head, I seem to recall that most devs are also composers. That's a plus, in my book.

OF COURSE IT'S A HUGE PLUS IN MY BOOK TOO, YOU'RE REPEATING WHAT I ALREADY SAID ABOVE. BUT I DON'T REMEMBER NICK PHOENIX OR ERIC PERSING FOR EXAMPLE COME TO A FORUM AND SAY: I HAVE BEEN DELAYING THIS AND THAT BECAUSE I AM A FILM COMPOSER AS WELL AND HAD A FEW DEADLINES TO MEET. IT'S FINE WITH ME IF ANYONE HAS A DEADLINE, AND IN ANDREW'S CASE I TRULY WISH AND HOPE THAT HE REACHES WHAT HE DREAMS, BUT WHEN IT COMES TO SUPPORTING A PRODUCT THAT I AM GOING TO RELY ON THIS IS INDEED CASE FOR CONCERN. AGAIN, IF YOU WERE A PROFESSIONAL AND LIVING OUT OF SCORING FILMS YOU'D UNDERSTAND MY POINT HERE.




> I don't want to sound too critical to what seems to be a great addition to the string libraries out there.



So then how's about balancing your critique with some positive comments?[/quote]

THE IDEA WAS TO OPEN A DISCUSSION SO WE CAN ALL BENEFIT BY EXCHANGING OPINIONS. AFTER ALL IT IS ABOUT A PRODUCT BEING THROWN INTO THE MARKET AND NOT PERSONAL. 

TO ANSWER YOUR CALL, MY POSITIVE COMMENT FOR THE MOMENT ABOUT LASS IS THAT YES, THE 4 BAR COMPARISON WITH OTHER LIBRARIES SOUNDED PROMISING. THE LATEST DEMOS POSTED ON THE WEBSITE DO SOUND PROMISING. 

HOWEVER, WHEN I HEAR FROM PEOPLE THAT HAVE ACTUALLY USED IT IN A PRODUCTION I'LL BE ABLE TO TELL YOU MORE ABOUT ITS GREATNESS.

IN THE MEANTIME, I'LL WISH ALL THE LIBRARIES THE BEST OF LUCK, AND YOU THE SAME.


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## Hans Adamson (Jul 6, 2009)

lulgje @ Mon Jul 06 said:


> Well, now that the LASS has made its appearance and more demos are on the company's website I'm not sure anymore about this library simply because of the time being released, quality, requirements and the advertised price tag.
> 
> Quality: The quality of the library - based on the spec info and the demos - seems to be and sounds good. But is the difference in quality with other direct competitors so obvious that it would justify the price and give this library the "must have no matter what" status? Personally, I am not convinced...
> 
> ...


I think you are missing some of the strongest selling points for LASS. In addition to being capable of producing a string section with remarkable fluidity and connection in the melodic lines, LASS also provides essential functionality that is not available in any other string library today.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 6, 2009)

Lulgje,

Oooooooo, I like you! =o Nice use of YELLING for emphasis. >8o :wink:


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## Hannes_F (Jul 6, 2009)

Well, everybody wants everything next to free, this is natural.

On the other hand there is a sh*tload of work involved in recording, editing and programming a library like this, plus all the out of house costs for musicians, technical staff, studio and gear costs. Not to speak about the handling by Native Instruments. I get dizzy if I even halfway try to calculate a project like this.

So I believe the price is very moderate compared to the value that you get.

The question that only time will answer is to which amount the notorius strings problems that most composers suffer from are solved with LASS. It is obvious that strings have been by far the weak link in most mockups up to now. If sampled strings would be raised to the same standard in terms of being more or less as convincing as the other sampled orchestra groups this alone would be a big leap and well worth the price for most.

I am not talking about samples vs. live, this is an entirely different issue.


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## lux (Jul 6, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Jul 06 said:


> Lulgje,
> 
> Oooooooo, I like you! =o Nice use of YELLING for emphasis. >8o :wink:



yup, capital letters are raining those days....

i should have been shut up, sorry Ned


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## Niah (Jul 6, 2009)

well of course lulgie has every right to say what's on his mind, but like Ned I really thought that his "critiques", well I don't even know what to call them, were way far off

I mean if comparing LASS to VSL wasn't enough, now we are comparing to the tonehammer catologue or EW plat .. and .in prices too

Well I still remember when EW plat came out and it was around 3000 dollars. Sonic implants strings till cost 1000 dollars. VSL with solo strings and sections cost you more than 1000 dollars. oh and how old are these libraries again?

I think it's ok to talk about the price of LASS but to say that it's too much or too less because company A charges this for their string library is just far off to me. Just look at the library for what it is.

All these libraries are different in nature, and concept and were released at different times. Still don«'t understand the comparisons. 

It reminds me how most people would put in the same bag TS2, SD2, DoW and Tonehammer perc libraries. All these libraries are different, sound different and have different instrument and yet people still look at them as they were equals. 

LASS timing was bad? Thonex tried to finish the library as fast as he could and then we have EW anouncing a library that only started editing and programing now and most likely will be ready in 6 months from now and no demos. We also have EW extending their sale period and two for one offers. I mean how can you beat that? No matter what the time of release is you are going to have companies making offers at that same time. It's just competition.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 6, 2009)

lux @ 6/7/2009 said:


> i should have been shut up, sorry Ned



No, no, no. Comebacks like Lulgje's are good, actuallly. Lo mantiene umile! :mrgreen:


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## Ashermusic (Jul 6, 2009)

lux @ Mon Jul 06 said:


> Ashermusic @ Mon Jul 06 said:
> 
> 
> > lux @ Mon Jul 06 said:
> ...



Yes, you have the right to bore us silly


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 6, 2009)

lulgje @ 6/7/2009 said:


> IF YOU WERE A PROFESSIONAL THAT REALLY DOES THIS FOR A LIVING



Dude, take your foot out of your mouth please, then look me up in Wikipedia.


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## lux (Jul 6, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Mon Jul 06 said:


> lux @ Mon Jul 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Ashermusic @ Mon Jul 06 said:
> ...



hehe, i'm considering the option of just boring you


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## choc0thrax (Jul 6, 2009)

When there's money at stake the "new member"s creep out of the woodwork. There's going to be entertaining times ahead of us. I was planning on waiting to see the new EW library but don't even think I'd go for that cause it's just a tool and fills a need until something better comes along. Sonic Implants could possibly release a new string library or a Symphobia 2 could come out or maybe DVZ will come out in 2017, need to save my money for that.


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## lulgje (Jul 6, 2009)

Niah @ 6/7/2009 said:


> well of course lulgie has every right to say what's on his mind, but like Ned I really thought that his "critiques", well I don't even know what to call them, were way far off
> 
> I mean if comparing LASS to VSL wasn't enough, now we are comparing to the tonehammer catologue or EW plat .. and .in prices too
> 
> ...




SORRY guys for using capital letters, was done to not get confused who's saying what. It seems like some of you know more about LASS, if there is another source of information other than the official website, please post it up here.

Prices / quality for similar products by other companies was indeed to serve as a point of reference in order to clarify as much as we can with what we know. The different $$$ examples were presented simply to say that all sample libraries are giving great deals to us today for what they represent. I do know that every sample library is worth whatever the money and worth buying it, that is clear to me in today's world.

As subjective as it is, is it possible to answer in a 'non-partisan' way: is this new library a bang for the buck all around, good quality / good price. 

o/~


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## Niah (Jul 6, 2009)

lulgje @ Mon Jul 06 said:


> As subjective as it is, is it possible to answer in a 'non-partisan' way: is this new library a bang for the buck all around, good quality / good price.
> 
> o/~



I have the same doubts as you about LASS especially with the anouncement of another string library now . cinematic strings

All I was saying was that the comparisons and observations didn't make sense to me.

if you want to know more about LASS join us on the LASS threads over at the commercial anouncements where you can reach Thonex himself.


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## ComposerDude (Jul 6, 2009)

Re LASS being "late", Thonex targeted end-of-June 2009 and is on track to ship 3 weeks after that. In the sample world that's pretty darn close to "on time".


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## lux (Jul 6, 2009)

yeah, most of the impression was due to the fact there are rumors about Lass from a good amount of time, but i too consider Andrew to be pretty on time with it.


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## tfishbein82 (Jul 6, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Jul 06 said:


> lulgje @ 6/7/2009 said:
> 
> 
> > IF YOU WERE A PROFESSIONAL THAT REALLY DOES THIS FOR A LIVING
> ...


You're on wikipedia? Sweet.

5 clicks from your wiki page got me to Decomposition (redirected from bacterial decay). Is that a good thing for a composer?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 6, 2009)

It just means I'm getting old.

What happened today? Did NS let the kids out by accident?


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## tfishbein82 (Jul 6, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Jul 06 said:


> It just means I'm getting old.
> 
> What happened today? Did NS let the kids out by accident?


Maybe too much coffee this morning (if I'm one of the NS kids to whom you're referring)...

On topic, I think LASS sounds amazing. I know it's not as extensively sampled as VSL, but I love what I'm hearing on these core articulations.

And at $1000 (even $1200) it's a bargain in price comparison. To get the divisi capabilities of LASS out of VSL, you need solo, chamber and orchestral, and probably appassionata to get close to the same warmth. Those start adding up VERY fast.


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## tripit (Jul 6, 2009)

Hannes_F @ Mon Jul 06 said:


> FWIW I think all demos in this thread are done nicely but the LASS legato version is still the most convincing.
> 
> That being said I wished that all the examples were dryer, especially when it comes to legato questions. It is tempting to pour big reverb sauce over legato strings but that is not what we really want, right?
> 
> I guess the advance of LASS would be even more obvious with less reverb (for all the demos in this thread).



I was thinking the same.


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## garylionelli (Jul 6, 2009)

[quote:5559287851="lulgje @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:11 am"]But is the difference in quality with other direct competitors so obvious that it would justify the price and give this library the "must have no matter what" status? Personally, I am not convinced... 

EW Platinum Orchestra Plus is selling for the amazing price of $995, a huge baò6   §ž¦6   §ž§6   §ž¨6   §ž©6   §žª6   §ž«6   §ž¬6   §ž­6   §ž®6   §ž¯6   §ž°6   §ž±6   §ž²6   §ž³6   §ž´6   §žµ6   §ž¶6   §ž·6   §ž¸6   §ž¹7   §žº7   §ž»7   §ž¼7   §ž½7   §ž¾7   §ž¿7   §žÀ7   §žÁ7   §žÂ7   §žÃ7   §žÄ7   §žÅ7   §žÆ7   §žÇ7   §žÈ7   §žÉ7   §žÊ7   §žË7   §žÌ7   §žÍ7   §žÎ7   §žÏ7   §žÐ7   §žÑ8   §žÒ8   §žÓ8   §žÔ8   §žÕ8   §žÖ8   §ž×8   §žØ8   §žÙ8   §žÚ8   §žÛ8   §žÜ8   §žÝ8   §žÞ8   §žß8   §žà8   §žá8   §žâ8   §žã8   §žä8   §žå8   §žæ8   §žç8   §žè8   §žé8   §žê8   §žë8   §žì8   §ží8   §žî8   §žï8   §žð8   §žñ8   §žò8   §žó8   §žô8   §žõ8   §žö8   §ž÷8   §žø8   §žù


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## PolarBear (Jul 6, 2009)

I didn't start this thread to talk about pricing. Please calm down all! Wow. How disturbing.


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## PolarBear (Jul 6, 2009)

Well this is an open board where everyone can start his own *topics*. So is it really too much to ask for staying ON the topic of the thread starter?


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## Ashermusic (Jul 6, 2009)

PolarBear @ Mon Jul 06 said:


> Well this is an open board where everyone can start his own *topics*. So is it really too much to ask for staying ON the topic of the thread starter?



Apparently


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## synthetic (Jul 6, 2009)

What is the last forum topic anywhere that was still on-topic after 3 pages? If I see a post that's 4 pages long I'm usually curious what they're talking about on page 4.


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## Hans Adamson (Jul 6, 2009)

synthetic @ Mon Jul 06 said:


> What is the last forum topic anywhere that was still on-topic after 3 pages? If I see a post that's 4 pages long I'm usually curious what they're talking about on page 4.


 :lol: :lol: :lol: 8) (o)


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## Niah (Jul 6, 2009)

synthetic @ Mon Jul 06 said:


> What is the last forum topic anywhere that was still on-topic after 3 pages? If I see a post that's 4 pages long I'm usually curious what they're talking about on page 4.



heheh good one .

but I mean it's not that bad, at least we are still talking about samples and not some ancient bone flute 0oD


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## ozmorphasis (Jul 6, 2009)

Whenever someone makes an actual observation about the library itself and what it does, then I'm all ears...even if it's a biased opinion.

However, the whole "is it worth it for this price" questions always say much more about the person asking the question (and about the people answering), than about the product in question. 

How can you get a meaningful answer to that question if you are 1) broke and it aint no joke, and I am rich; or, 2) filthy rich...but I am broke...and it still aint no joke; or, 3) you are a hobbyist, while I am regularly working on high profile gigs?; Or, maybe you just don't hear the difference or advantages...or maybe I don't?

Audio pros will regularly spend thousands more for a piece of hardware because it gives you that 2% extra sumthin'-sumthin' that the other box won't quite deliver. This is nothing new. If you hear the difference, and it matters enough to you, then it is by definition worth it.

For this reason, the critique of each other's posts is a lot more out of place than any critique of the library itself...since the latter is really more of a revelation about the individual making the critique.

Ok, sorry if that got a bit too philosophical and convoluted. Hope the point is clear in any case.

I don't think LASS or Andrew need any defending here, nor his price. The continued praise (if it indeed continues), upcoming sales (if they indeed do well), and professional application (if it gets used all over the place), will speak for itself.

Having said that, I do enjoy witnessing the occasional Jerry Springer moment hereabouts. o-[][]-o 

Much respekk,
O


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## Jack Weaver (Jul 6, 2009)

Uh Oh.... back on topic again. 

I gave it a try with my VSL setup. Using my normal day-to-day techniques. I didn't go out of my way to do anything special. Just create the track and move on like we all do when we work. Pretty much like I assume Andrew made his demo. I didn't get out the calipers, speculum and electron scanning microscope to massage it. 

Created one track played in by hand using the normal controller setup I use: Velocity Xfade, Expression and Filter (all with quite differing curves mind you) tied to one controller - the mod wheel. I copied this track along with controller information to another track. I didn't change any timing information. 

I assigned one track to VSL's Solo Violin perf-Legato, the other to a split cell with App1 per-Legato on the upper cell and App2 sordino per-Legato on the other. This is normal procedure for me. I like to add the sordini to the regular vln sound in order to smooth it out a bit. Like I said earlier I'm using my normal procedures.

Like Andrew, I drenched it in hardware reverb. In this case, a Bricasti on Archduke Hall. Listening to it I think I might have weighted the mix a bit heavier on the solo track side. But still, I think you will get the idea. 

Here's a link to my me.com page. Apple was kind enough to change all of our accounts recently from mac.com to this thing. Forgive me since I haven't yet figured out how to allow you to access directly files within my public page. So you have to go here:
http://idisk.mac.com/jackweaver4-Public?view=web
then download:
*VSL Vlns.wav*

Yes, it's a 24-bit wave file. I wanted to give VSL every chance. 

I'll give my thoughts after any of you feel free to comment. 
Oh also, I thought Polar Bear's version was good. Some people were wondering if the fact that he has Opus that there might be some difference in what could be produced. 

OT:
Hey it's like Summer Blockbusters. Last year we had the Symphobia fireworks and this summer we have LASS. 
Pass the popcorn. More butter and salt please....

.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 6, 2009)

note transitions are much smoother on LASS. There is a definite synth quality to this VSL demo.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 6, 2009)

This is an exciting generation for sampled strings, but you could be sure VSL will be right up there....


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## synthetic (Jul 6, 2009)

Craig Sharmat @ Mon Jul 06 said:


> note transitions are much smoother on LASS. There is a definite synth quality to this VSL demo.



Careful, I heard Jay's car pulling up. You don't want him to hear you say "synth quality..."


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 6, 2009)

I still think a better demo can be done with VSL on this line. I won't do it as I am a LASS beta currently. I also think VSL will answer at some point.


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## Jack Weaver (Jul 6, 2009)

Absolutely. VSL strings sound like VSL strings. 

There is a limitation to what can be done with them. After listening to the new LASS demos I'm glad that Andrew waited to post them just right before they are coming out. It would have been a bit defeating to have to work like this knowing what the same amount of effort could yield with the right tool. 

The space is so different. The VSL strings are recorded 'stereo' in a smaller room. You have to limit their width with a plugin, then pan it, then add stereo reverb. They don't 'breathe' like LASS. When you (necessarily) use this normal VSL production panning technique you get 'some strings over here and some strings over there'. The LASS demos sound liquid to me. 

The dynamic intonation is not pre-ordained like in VSL. It's true I could have spent more time and used all sorts of differing Dynamic articulations that are available in the VSL library. But they only get you so far into realism. 

Of course there isn't that Divisi-ability. (I guess you can say LASS is Divisible.) Yes, Chamber Strings are available in VSL. However they sound so very different than the App or Orchestral strings. Sometimes the fact that they sound different can be useful. Interestingly I tried adding them to this mix as a third separate track and they just made the sound smaller. 

The First Chair vln by itself sounds so much more convincing. The A section and the First Chair combined sounded bigger than the VSL 20-piece App1 + App2. 

I'm sure that Jay Bacal or Herb Tucmandi could have spent a lot more time on these and made them sound a few percent better. I could have gotten it better too. But c'mon guys. How long do we really have to spend to get 10 seconds of music for just one instrument? I really wanted to show realistic work flow. 

Despite the fact that this one little example could be done a bit better there are all the other techniques that LASS affords like the whole A.R.T. thing. Even if the VSL example sounded much better on this phrase there is a whole world of phrases and string techniques that need to be accounted for. 

I do especially like the VSL pre-recorded trills. I'll wait to hear LASS's trills before I comment there. Unfortunately VSL has stopped offering these with their newer libraries. 

Edit:
And yes, Guy, I'm with you in thinking that VSL is not asleep at the wheel. My remarks are not partisan. They are commentary based on experience and observation regarding what I can purchase now (or tomorrow, actually). 
VSL is a powerhouse of innovation. 

However for the moment, one guy in his home studio has leapfrogged them. 

.


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## SvK (Jul 6, 2009)

if the first one is LASS ....i like that a lot better.....(compared to EW)

SvK


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 6, 2009)

Did everyone just miss Christian's from earlier today? I thought it was a really good battle royale:



CFDG @ 6/7/2009 said:


> Well. http://marcelrouste.com/LASS_VSLAPP.mp3 (LASS=&gt;VSL App)...
> 
> Christian


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## JT3_Jon (Jul 6, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Jul 06 said:


> Did everyone just miss Christian's from earlier today? I thought it was a really good battle royale:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I did too Ned! Question for Christian, did you use any EQ on the VSL or is that "out of the box?"


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 6, 2009)

I think that these are the App Sordi (from App II), most probably straight out of the box (I have App I).


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## hbuus (Jul 6, 2009)

Can anyone do a SISS version, perhaps using SIPS?


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## StrangeCat (Jul 6, 2009)

CFDG @ Mon Jul 06 said:


> Well. http://marcelrouste.com/LASS_VSLAPP.mp3 (LASS=&gt;VSL App)...
> 
> Christian



That's really close but the LASS version of the melody is more rich and fluid sounding.

I am getting really impressed with LASS it sounds so rich and alive. I guess the strings being a little out of tune really make for real sounding ensemble. 

The only problem is that really hurts the sound of the first chair, it really sounds out of tune as a solo instrument.

I was super impressed with the Pizz cello demo! WOW!

Looks like this is the year for strings! o-[][]-o


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## synthetic (Jul 6, 2009)

What Pizz cello demo? 

I agree that LASS sounds sweeter than VSL App1 in this shootout. That 4k shrillness that SvK mentioned is tough to get around on VSL samples for me as well. There is a little pitchyness to LASS that might be a concern, hopefully that can get dialed back in the future. Or I can learn to love it.


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## Thonex (Jul 6, 2009)

synthetic @ Mon Jul 06 said:


> What Pizz cello demo?)



I think he meant the spiccato demo.


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## synthetic (Jul 6, 2009)

Thonex, I'm probably overstating the pitchyness and it will be better in a full mix. 

I realize that negative comments are 100dB louder than positive ones right now!  Let's just say I have four auctions on eBay right now to raise funds with more on the way, even though I own god knows how many major strings libraries. (At least five or six... maybe I should list those as well...)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 6, 2009)

SvK, I think you'd be very surprised. You don't really hear the layer switches.


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## poseur (Jul 6, 2009)

synthetic @ Mon Jul 06 said:


> There is a little pitchyness to LASS that might be a concern, hopefully that can get dialed back in the future. Or I can learn to love it.


crikey, i love that..... errrrrmmmmm..... "pitchiness"!
absolutely love it.
sounds remarkable, to me.
d


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## Thonex (Jul 6, 2009)

Dave Connor @ Mon Jul 06 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jul 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Dave, it's adjustable in real time with a slider.
> ...



Thanks Dave.

I'll tell you... the CC83 (the controller that adjusts the speed of the ports and glisses) is KEY to getting as close to a real performance as possible (IMO). I've always wanted control of that in a predictable way.

The weird thing is, now that you have these tools you really start "listening" to every note differently. Like a microscope. And one can get hyper analytical. I know I can. Then I sit down and listen to some music with real players... and sometimes I'll catch myself thinking... "hmmm that string line sounded fake"... even though they were totally real. Which basically makes me realize that there is a danger of chasing your tail in these hyper analytical situations.


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## Dave Connor (Jul 7, 2009)

Thonex @ Mon Jul 06 said:


> I'll tell you... the CC83 (the controller that adjusts the speed of the ports and glisses) is KEY to getting as close to a real performance as possible (IMO). I've always wanted control of that in a predictable way.



It is amazing how you can write a nice passage in the strings and you find just one transition in one of the parts where you need a little more of a slide between the notes but not an all out portamento and you're stuck. You feel like a conductor that can't get the exact performance you want. So I congratulate you Andrew on your technical achievement there and also the general quality of LASS. Also looking forward to hearing _all_ the different things this new library offers.


----------



## stevenson-again (Jul 7, 2009)

> The weird thing is, now that you have these tools you really start "listening" to every note differently. Like a microscope. And one can get hyper analytical. I know I can. Then I sit down and listen to some music with real players... and sometimes I'll catch myself thinking... "hmmm that string line sounded fake"... even though they were totally real. Which basically makes me realize that there is a danger of chasing your tail in these hyper analytical situations.



this so true. i think jay asher's mantra around here is that it doesn't matter if it is fake or real, it just matters if it sounds good. i am with him there. very often i have had to replace some live playing i wasn't terribly satisfied with, with samples. sometimes i have simply not bothered booking players to play certain sections because a) the samples sounded fine, b) they weren't exposed enough to add much value or c) they were going to be part of an underscore buried within a general sound mix.

here is the KEY thing for me with LASS. my biggest problem is controlling the scale of the ensemble. very often i am too limited with what i can do musically because the stacking of the samples gives me an orchestra of around 150 players when i just want a small chamber sound. i have gotten around this in the past by using solo sampled instruments but it really doesn't quite do it. being able to control the size of the ensemble is going to important be for my work - unless i hit the jackpot and get transformer movies to for the rest of my life.... :-P but the other thing is using smaller groups you can much clearer sense of line for internal polyphony that can give you that extra yum factor without turning your intimate love scene into superman saving the world by booting a wayward moon out of the solar system.

the next thing is the actual sound of the samples. the very last note of the VSL attempt at the the phrase you can clearly hear is a bit off. it just sounds harsh and not very nice. its notes like these that crop up in miroslav/siedlecek/vienna hybrid that make me want to upgrade to something better. 

context is everything. it may be that in certain circumstances you woudn't notice it, but if you were coming gently in with that note because that's the note you need and you had to put with not a very nice sample you can't do much about it. with LASS, we have the option of mixing and matching until we get the right sound.

the final point is homogeneity. 

occasionally mixing libraries is not only something that works - its a good thing to do. but i could show clips of stuff i have done that sort of sound great, but the samples are coming from everywhere and it does sound a little spasticated. an orchestra with an identity crisis. you have one sample panned in one spot and then woah - what's this? those violas are moving around pretty fast. and where exactly are those horns sitting? and precisely how many of the buggers have you got?

in going for the best most effective samples you lose a sense of ensemble. sure its fine for telly but honestly i really want to raise the game a bit higher than that. i think its the flexibility of LASS that is so appealing.


----------



## CFDG (Jul 7, 2009)

The example I posted is App I with a pinch of App II. I slightly delayed the attacks to match what I heard with LASS. There's a bit of EQ (-2db around 2K only on App I), and 2X Altiverbs (Todd AO wide). Absolutely not outside the box, I don't think the LASS example is also right OOTB.

I will definitely add LASS to my arsenal.

Christian

EDIT. Yes, I realize that my App example is played by 40 violonists. :mrgreen:

EDIT II. Replaced App II with solo vln, > here <. And this is for SvK pleasure only:


----------



## Peter Alexander (Jul 7, 2009)

stevenson-again @ Tue Jul 07 said:


> > here is the KEY thing for me with LASS. my biggest problem is controlling the scale of the ensemble. very often i am too limited with what i can do musically because the stacking of the samples gives me an orchestra of around 150 players when i just want a small chamber sound. i have gotten around this in the past by using solo sampled instruments but it really doesn't quite do it. being able to control the size of the ensemble is going to important be for my work - unless i hit the jackpot and get transformer movies to for the rest of my life.... :-P but the other thing is using smaller groups you can much clearer sense of line for internal polyphony that can give you that extra yum factor without turning your intimate love scene into superman saving the world by booting a wayward moon out of the solar system.



Precisely, you nailed it. From what I'm seeing, these smaller ensembles within the larger ensemble enable you to create the proper balance and sonority. You can have the full section mix of Violins 1 (for example) then break into div a 2 (C - A+B) then back to the full Violins 1. The "algebra" reads 8 violins in octaves with 4 Violins + 4 Violins. 

The smaller ensembles also offer other scoring opportunities. For example, I have a copy of the original Nelson Riddle score for Nat Cole's _Unforgettable_. That Nelson Riddle sound can be achieved with these smaller sections by using A and B ensembles in Violins 1 and 2, enabling you to recreate that triadic voicing with the melody 8Vb in the violins, while the violas and cellos play the "pad" supported by a single pizz bass. 

Even if you don't want to write in that style, the broader point is, the tools appear to be available _to_ write that way.


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## SvK (Jul 7, 2009)

Christian......

Thanx for the EQ pic  No EQ on LASS ?

Thanx again..

Best,
SvK


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## Thonex (Jul 7, 2009)

SvK @ Tue Jul 07 said:


> Christian......
> 
> Thanx for the EQ pic  No EQ on LASS ?
> 
> ...





There was EQ on LASS. Which brings up a good point. All the LASS samples are basically not EQed. But all the patches have 10 User programmable EQ presets to save their own EQ settings. I've included a basic "LASS" Eq setting for every patch. The idea behind this is to one day release EQ sets that sound like famous scores. 

However, when you use LASS, you should definitely try bypassing the EQ and try other EQ settings.

Cheers,

Andrew K


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## Rob Elliott (Jul 7, 2009)

Aside from the HUGE 'tone' benefit apparent in these demos - these EQ presets (if sometimes to just put us in a ballpark close to a 'temp' score or a sound we hear) - is a great step Andy. This is a fun shootout exercise but in most cases - 10 seconds of score - one part - I have about 15 seconds to 'get it right'. 

One of the biggest selling points for me is that from the 'ground up' LASS is designed by an 'rank and file' working composer. These issues you (and us) deal with everyday on workflow seem to be well thought out here.


Really looking forward to this one for many reasons - but honestly if I could only manage to get something approximated in what I have now (in the major string libraries I own) - but in LESS programming time - I'd buy it.

The fact that LASS just sounds freaking good - well seems to be a no -brainer purchase for hobbyist and pro alike.



Rob


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## SvK (Jul 7, 2009)

Thonex....thanx for responding......AND THANX for samples being non-eq/bake-in....

SvK


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## PolarBear (Jul 7, 2009)

Rob, you're dead on in my opinion. I like the Appassionata sound on this snippet a lot more than my own. However it can get in your way if you attempt to do more intimate lines...


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## salbinti (Jul 7, 2009)

Definitely think that LASS sounds better than either of the VSL cues, and the EW cue. It has a certain definition not found in the others. I wonder about the time frame tho - how much time was spent on that LASS cue, and how much time on the others....Hey Jack Weaver - care to make that .mid file of your go at it public?


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## synthetic (Jul 7, 2009)

Whoops, reported Thonex by accident. Honest!

Oh well, guess my LASS discs will be "damaged in shipping." :(

[Edit: post had already been reported by 9 moderators? Yikes.]


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 7, 2009)

we are applying the bubble gum now.


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## PolarBear (Jul 7, 2009)

synthetic @ Tue Jul 07 said:


> Whoops, reported Thonex by accident. Honest!
> 
> Oh well, guess my LASS discs will be "damaged in shipping." :(
> 
> [Edit: post had already been reported by 9 moderators? Yikes.]



"This post has now been reported to 9 moderators". Ignorance is a bliss, eh  Now mods, please go buy some reputation for Thonex back! Get LASS. Now. :D (Including you of the 9, Andrew!)


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 7, 2009)

Jeff, I'm afraid you now have 2 options: the studded whip or Celine Dion's greatest hits on Repeat.


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## Rob Elliott (Jul 7, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Jul 07 said:


> Jeff, I'm afraid you now have 2 options: the studded whip or Celine Dion's greatest hits on Repeat.




Will Ferrell's 'more cowbell' could also work (of course repeat.)


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## NYC Composer (Jul 7, 2009)

tripit @ Mon Jul 06 said:


> Hannes_F @ Mon Jul 06 said:
> 
> 
> > FWIW I think all demos in this thread are done nicely but the LASS legato version is still the most convincing.
> ...



+1 times 10. Man. I wrote the same thing in a thread not too long ago...has everyone fallen in hopeless love with their groovy convolution reverbs? Seems like every example i hear these days is power-dipped in treacle.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 7, 2009)

I'm non partisan here, however I would of liked to hear some fast legato strings from LASS, didn't see any demos of such. I'm curious about that. Is this possible to hear?


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## ozmorphasis (Jul 7, 2009)

[quote:64839c1530="NYC Composer @ Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:45 pm"][quote:64839c1530="tripit @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:11 pm"][quote:64839c1530="Hannes_F @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:30 am"]FWIW I think all demos in this thread are done nicely but the LASS legato version is still the most convincing.

That being said I wished that all the examples were dryer, especially when it comes to òs   §ÝPs   §ÝQs   §ÝRs   §ÝSs   §ÝTs   §ÝUs   §ÝVs   §ÝWs   §ÝXs   §ÝYs   §ÝZs   §Ý[s   §Ý\s   §Ý]s   §Ý^s   §Ý_s   §Ý`s   §Ýas   §Ýbs   §Ýcs   §Ýds   §Ýes   §Ýfs   §Ýgs   §Ýhs   §Ýis   §Ýjs   §Ýks   §Ýls   §Ýms   §Ýns   §Ýos   §Ýps   §Ýqs   §Ýrs   §Ýss   §Ýts   §Ýus   §Ývs   §Ýws   §Ýxs   §Ýys   §Ýzs   §Ý{s   §Ý|s   §Ý}s   §Ý~s   §Ýs   §Ý€s   §Ýs   §Ý‚s   §Ýƒs   §Ý„s   §Ý…s   §Ý†s   §Ý‡s   §Ýˆs   §Ý‰s   §ÝŠs   §Ý‹s   §ÝŒs   §Ýs   §ÝŽs   §Ýs   §Ýs   §Ý‘t   §Ý˜t   §Ý™t   §Ýšt   §Ý›t   §Ýœt   §Ýt   §Ýžt   §ÝŸt   §Ý t   §Ý¡t   §Ý¢t   §Ý£u   §Ý¤u   §Ý¥u   §Ý¦u   §Ý§u   §Ý¨u   §Ý©u   §Ýªu   §Ý«u   §Ý¬u   §Ý­u   §Ý®u   §Ý¯u   §Ý°u   §Ý±u   §Ý²u   §Ý³u   §Ý´u   §Ýµu   §Ý¶u   §Ý·u   §Ý¸u   §Ý¹u   §Ýºu   §Ý»u   §Ý¼u   §Ý½u   §Ý¾u   §Ý¿u   §ÝÀu   §ÝÁu   §ÝÂu   §ÝÃu   §ÝÄu   §ÝÅ              òu   §ÝÇu   §ÝÈu   §ÝÉu   §ÝÊu   §ÝËu   §ÝÌu   §ÝÍu   §ÝÎu   §ÝÏu   §ÝÐu   §ÝÑu   §ÝÒu   §ÝÓu   §ÝÔu   §ÝÕu   §ÝÖu   §Ý×u   §ÝØu   §ÝÙu


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 7, 2009)

If I were VSL or Andrew I wouldn't even consider posting dry demos of my libraries. Why would I want them demoed in a way they're not intended to be used and that makes them sound like total ass?


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## Niah (Jul 7, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jul 08 said:


> If I were VSL or Andrew I wouldn't even consider posting dry demos of my libraries. Why would I want them demoed in a way they're not intended to be used and that makes them sound like total ass?



Finally someone said it. 8) 

I think it's like demonstrating an electric guitar without an amp.


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## StrangeCat (Jul 7, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Jul 07 said:


> If I were VSL or Andrew I wouldn't even consider posting dry demos of my libraries. Why would I want them demoed in a way they're not intended to be used and that makes them sound like total ass?



Probably people want to hear fast runs on all strings naked so they can see what it will sound like with out hall sound. Then they can add there own hall sound. All the demos are pretty wet.


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## PolarBear (Jul 7, 2009)

Actually those guys do expect a little too much from the first bunch of 6 demos in my humble opinion... well... should we blame the hype around new string libraries for it?


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## ozmorphasis (Jul 7, 2009)

+1.

What company ever puts its new product out there without showcasing it in the most flattering light possible? We should go to a 3rd party reviewer or end-user if we want to see the thing taken apart and put back together with a magnifying glass. I'm not saying that I myself would not want to have access to that sort of info, I just agree that it is asking a bit much of the developer.


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## Hannes_F (Jul 8, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jul 08 said:


> If I were VSL or Andrew I wouldn't even consider posting dry demos of my libraries. Why would I want them demoed in a way they're not intended to be used and that makes them sound like total ass?



I said dryer, not dry.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 8, 2009)

What I can hear of LASS sounds spectacular, and I said so in the Commercial thread.
I'd like to hear some drier samples. What's the rumpus? Geez.


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## Hannes_F (Jul 8, 2009)

Must google rumpus :lol: 

Just for the records: I said I think LASS will probably excel over other libraries even more with dry-*er* demos. Maybe not for people that have never used a strings library or heard a dry strings recording, but certainly for those that have.

On the other hand no big deal.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 8, 2009)

And I'd like to see wet pictures of Andrew naked.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 8, 2009)

Actually I wouldn't.

Never mind.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 8, 2009)

...although the guys at VSL are really handsome...


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## NYC Composer (Jul 8, 2009)

see 'latency' :wink:


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## NYC Composer (Jul 8, 2009)

Hannes_F @ Wed Jul 08 said:


> Must google rumpus :lol:
> 
> Just for the records: I said I think LASS will probably excel over other libraries even more with dry-*er* demos. Maybe not for people that have never used a strings library or heard a dry strings recording, but certainly for those that have.
> 
> On the other hand no big deal.



Hannes- re/ 'rumpus'-just watch Miller's Crossing, a Coen brothers movie.
Great film, btw. I love the use of language.


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## Rob Elliott (Jul 8, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jul 08 said:


> ...although the guys at VSL are really handsome...




Nick - time to stop writing and get with other human beings - you are really worrying me. :shock: 


:wink:


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 8, 2009)

Human beings, barnyard animals - as long as it has a pulse, what's the difference?


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## artsoundz (Jul 8, 2009)

well. for one, you dont have to call a barn animal the next day.


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## tripit (Jul 8, 2009)

Well, this thread is certainly scraping bottom. Last call folks.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 8, 2009)

Whose bottom?


----------



## Jack Weaver (Jul 8, 2009)

Yeah, it could be much worse. It could be like the political and religious threads else where on this forum. o-[][]-o


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 9, 2009)

Jack Weaver @ 9/7/2009 said:


> Yeah, it could be much worse. It could be like the political and religious threads else where on this forum. o-[][]-o



Right. God's been Left out.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 9, 2009)

Anyhoo, these acronyms sure aren't sexy! How's about we instead compare Vienna legato to LA legato? Or we could skip the legato and go right to Stadtpark vs Venice Beach.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 10, 2009)

Peter Alexander @ Tue Jul 07 said:


> stevenson-again @ Tue Jul 07 said:
> 
> 
> > > here is the KEY thing for me with LASS. my biggest problem is controlling the scale of the ensemble. very often i am too limited with what i can do musically because the stacking of the samples gives me an orchestra of around 150 players when i just want a small chamber sound. i have gotten around this in the past by using solo sampled instruments but it really doesn't quite do it. being able to control the size of the ensemble is going to important be for my work - unless i hit the jackpot and get transformer movies to for the rest of my life.... :-P but the other thing is using smaller groups you can much clearer sense of line for internal polyphony that can give you that extra yum factor without turning your intimate love scene into superman saving the world by booting a wayward moon out of the solar system.
> ...



+1-the scaleable aspects and the reailty tuning appeal to me greatly.

Peter, where did you get that Riddle score? I'd love to see it, always one of my favorite romantic string sounds.

I've also enjoyed the small ensemble, very live sound of the Louis Armstrong 'Wonderful World.'. Sound like a small group of people playing together.


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## Stevie (Jul 11, 2009)

We do


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## bryla (Jul 11, 2009)

Nickie is one


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 11, 2009)

Joanne is another.


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## Ed (Jul 11, 2009)

Lunatique @ Sat Jul 11 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jul 08 said:
> 
> 
> > ...although the guys at VSL are really handsome...
> ...



But i always like to pretend you're the girl your avatar. :cry:


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## Lunatique (Jul 11, 2009)

Ed @ Sat Jul 11 said:


> Lunatique @ Sat Jul 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jul 08 said:
> ...



If that makes your day just a tiny bit brighter and happier, then go right ahead. As for me, I'm about to hit the shower and turn in for the night--sleeping next to my avatar. :wink:


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## Frederick Russ (Jul 11, 2009)

One of the main differences I've found in Lass - especially regarding portamento - is that its velocity-based and not just one speed. Depending on music application, varying levels of portamento speed can be had by simply tweaking midi velocities for note connections.


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## George Caplan (Jul 12, 2009)

Which one is the easier and quicker to use? LASS or VSL?


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 12, 2009)

Depends on what you are trying to do.


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## George Caplan (Jul 12, 2009)

Get a string sound as quick as possible without too much rocket science.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 12, 2009)

George Caplan @ Sun Jul 12 said:


> Get a string sound as quick as possible without too much rocket science.



ANY library is faster than VSL for that.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jul 12, 2009)

LASS is very simple in this regard.


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## lux (Jul 12, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Sun Jul 12 said:


> George Caplan @ Sun Jul 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Get a string sound as quick as possible without too much rocket science.
> ...


i dunno if i completely agree with that Jay. Fact with Vsl is not much a matter of performance, thats pretty helped by the scripted stuff, but of obtaining what we consider a target sound. And most of us have a certain target sound in mind.

So i would not say that Vsl is a difficult lib to use, i would say that is a difficult lib to treat sonically if you want to achieve a specific sound. That probably is 90% of times is that LSO scores sound.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 12, 2009)

lux @ Sun Jul 12 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sun Jul 12 said:
> 
> 
> > George Caplan @ Sun Jul 12 said:
> ...



That is fair but I pretty much assumed that is what he mean by "get a sound."

From what I hear, Andrews' library sounds pretty good right out of the box with very little work, as do IMHO Kirk Hunter's Ruby, S.I.CC., and EWQLSO. VSL does not IMHO, you have to do more work with it sonically.


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## lux (Jul 12, 2009)

yeah, i see what you mean.

I've always wondered why, assuming so many composers have that specific target in mind, Vsl never considered giving out Eq settings, perhaps a specific eq plugin with given presets, or just patches that do incorporate equalization settings that come out of comparative frequency analysis of Vsl outputs and famous and "most wanted" recordings.

I dont really think this would ever represent an admission that they made something "wrong" but just giving the lib a more customizable and "modern" approach. With the technical and human resources they have that would be a pretty feasable work imho.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 12, 2009)

ANY library is faster than VSL for that.

i dunno if i completely agree with that Jay. "

I know I completely disagree with it. You only have to set it up once.

I'm not saying that to be partial to one library over another, just saying that it's not really a significant factor.


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## bluejay (Jul 12, 2009)

Lux, that's a great idea...

... in fact it's such a great idea that the Vienna guys did exactly that in their Vienna Suite. Have you tried their brass with the EQ presets ... it sounds much more cinematic!


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## lux (Jul 12, 2009)

hmm, i have no idea what the vienna suite is i'm afraid, even if i've heard it named more than once.

Does it that with strings? Am i supposed to use it in my own host? Any mp3?


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## lux (Jul 12, 2009)

just went to their website, yeah it looks they did indeed.

Why then people still talks about the equalization and timbre issue? Vienna suite looks like they have lot of presets with that. I'm curious


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## bluejay (Jul 12, 2009)

It's not all perfect Lux (and obviously a lot of people own VSL stuff and don't own the Vienna Suite) but yes it can get you a long way with their libraries very quickly.


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## lux (Jul 12, 2009)

Yeah, i see. My Vsl libs are Opus bundle and french oboe, i wonder how much benefit they can get out of it.

But, again, i'm wondering why i havent heard enough examples of the vienna suite. Perhaps comparative stuff with and without plugs on. I would love to hear that.


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## synthetic (Jul 13, 2009)

I have to work very hard on VSL samples to get them to sit in a mix. (And I have a degree in recording/engineering, for whatever that's worth.) I'm looking forward to LASS, hopefully they will be easier in this regard.


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## tripit (Jul 13, 2009)

synthetic @ Mon Jul 13 said:


> I have to work very hard on VSL samples to get them to sit in a mix. (And I have a degree in recording/engineering, for whatever that's worth.) I'm looking forward to LASS, hopefully they will be easier in this regard.



Your not alone. It takes some time and a lot of work to learn how to mix VSL to your liking. When I first got VSL, I still used SI strings for the longest time (several years actually), because I just wasn't getting the results I wanted. Then when the App strings came out (and the VSI) I slowly started using them, experimenting and trying various ways of mixing. Finally, I got it down to where I was getting results that I liked. This last year or so, I've really put them through the paces, finding many combinations with the regular, chamber and solo to get a lot of good sounding mixes. I've finally got VSL to where I wanted it (just when LASS is coming...that figures) 

VSL is not an out of the box library, that's for sure. You have to put some time into it. But, once you get a system that works for you, it's not a big deal. You set up templates, eq's, verbs etc and just go like you would with anything else.


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