# Is it worth trying to use Wordbuilder



## rayinstirling (Dec 15, 2008)

Here is a tune from my requiem that I've added some EWQLSC to.
The thing is wordbuilder has me scratching my head. Although I have instructions and the votox alphabet chart I still can't quite work out how to get the timing sorted etc.

This is with wordbuilder My first ever attempt at using it.

remixed 16th Feb 2009 more space and air
http://raymondkemp.com/mp3s/Quiet_Reflection.mp3 

I hope this works, my wimpy player is now defunct so I'll have to rebuild my site with rave for presenting future cues. I'm scratching my head with rave. I hate reading instructions.


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## JohnG (Dec 15, 2008)

I like it a lot for "regular" choir. It is hard to get a really aggressive, shouting kind of sound, but for singing anthems and so on it's amazing.

I sent you an email with an MP3 separately, Ray. It's a mockup of the choir part from a trailer cue.


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## Ed (Dec 16, 2008)

Funny John I have the opposite experience!

If I use the close mics I think you can get a decent agressive sound, but I cant for the life of me get it to sing anything subtle and sound good, but then I dont understand all the little parameters you can change. 

As for timing, yes I dont get that either. It all seems a bit messy but it works, just , for me, so i keep using it... especially because there is no alternative! How do you write your parts? Do you score it in or play it in? If you play in your choir parts in you can get the timing right for stuff like in your track, but if you just try and change it to choir words it will probably sound off which is why you are having troubles. In my experience you cannot use WB on quantised parts. 

Ed


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## rayinstirling (Dec 16, 2008)

JohnG @ Mon Dec 15 said:


> I like it a lot for "regular" choir. It is hard to get a really aggressive, shouting kind of sound, but for singing anthems and so on it's amazing.
> 
> I sent you an email with an MP3 separately, Ray. It's a mockup of the choir part from a trailer cue.


John,

Thanks for the mp3, following which, I probably have more questions than answers. I note that like many mock-ups I've listened to the words have a 'latin-ish' flavour. So! if we don't have four or five weeks to play with when programming our choir part then there is no chance of trying to make them sing in English and, that effort would then need a little muffling with the orchestra to hide the poor diction. Hmm! I have plenty of time so, I suppose I should try a bit harder. There is nothing more uplifting than a large choir and, when composing this piece last year I always thought it needed voices, only now do I begin to understand how much easier it is to sing than play samples no matter how sweet they may sound. It certainly seems to need an apprenticeship in this craft all to it's self.

Ray


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## rayinstirling (Dec 16, 2008)

Ed @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> As for timing, yes I dont get that either. It all seems a bit messy but it works, just , for me, so i keep using it... especially because there is no alternative! How do you write your parts? Do you score it in or play it in? If you play in your choir parts in you can get the timing right for stuff like in your track, but if you just try and change it to choir words it will probably sound off which is why you are having troubles. In my experience you cannot use WB on quantised parts.
> 
> Ed


Ed,

So it's a hit or a miss with the timing. I wonder, is it easier programming the midi, converting to audio then chopping and time stretching till it fits?
You can take it from what I just said, I don't score the parts I work solely in the DAW.

Ray


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## JohnG (Dec 16, 2008)

rayinstirling @ 16th December 2008 said:


> like many mock-ups I've listened to the words have a 'latin-ish' flavour.



That's because I used the Latin words that come with the program.

But I have done as much in Italian (set some bits of Dante), which you can discern in the performance (don't have it solo'd though or I would send) and a tiny bit of English. It's not the same as a real choir, but astonishing (to me) how real it does sound.

It didn't take months -- hours, but not months. And it's somewhat on the painstaking side, but not much more than trying to coax a nice legato line from a violin. Suggest you have a peek at the tutorial, which will answer a lot of questions about just how far it can be taken in a relatively brief time. Editing the syllables isn't really very time-consuming once you know how.

Interesting to hear from Ed about the close mics and more aggressive singing. I have used the stage and hall mics and not the close mics much at all. I will try that next time I'm trying to get Hell and Damnation (which the producer wants on my current score, so thanks for the tip). As far as timing, I do play it in "live" and slide any notes that feel off. If one is a quantize-er, one could use a global midi offset to make things a bit earlier to keep them on top of the beat, I guess.

Anyway, it is probably evident that I am very impressed with the results, at least for "choir plus orchestra."


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## JohnG (Dec 16, 2008)

Having listened again to your piece, Ray, I wonder if you could persuade a choir from a local school or choral society to take it on? It's very beautiful, and the school could play it at a Sunday service with just organ and the choir.

In my school days in Surrey we tackled pieces like this quite readily, and our numbers were increased by a local singing group that, as far as I know, sang for the fun of it, rather than money. I wonder if there is a school or choral society near enough to you that an approach to the music director would be possible?


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## rayinstirling (Dec 16, 2008)

John,

I'd love to hear it sung by a real choir and thanks for thinking it worthy of such.
That's the good thing about church music I suppose. Many willing participants to perform out of the goodness in their hearts.
School days in Surrey... you're as American as Craig Ferguson then :D
Sorry that was below the belt. Mr Ferguson's American because the Scot's don't want him.

Because Symphonic Choirs are stuck in NI and not Play the videos etc seem to be unaccessible at the moment. I do have the latest version software and wordbuilder but that's it.

I'll work on this tune and see if I can't make it a bit more human.

Regards

Ray


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## JohnG (Dec 16, 2008)

First, I definitely think the piece is worthy of a real choir.

However, if you like, I can send the tutorials to your email account by one of the 'send large file' type programs. They would take quite some time to download but I can do it if you want. It's not sent as an attachment but a link that allows you to pull the file down from the internet.

I think the tutorials are indispensable if you are going to work on a long piece. There are eight of them.


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## rayinstirling (Dec 16, 2008)

JohnG @ Tue Dec 16 said:


> First, I definitely think the piece is worthy of a real choir.
> 
> However, if you like, I can send the tutorials to your email account by one of the 'send large file' type programs. They would take quite some time to download but I can do it if you want. It's not sent as an attachment but a link that allows you to pull the file down from the internet.
> 
> I think the tutorials are indispensable if you are going to work on a long piece. There are eight of them.


That would be great John,

Thanks


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## Stephen Baysted (Dec 16, 2008)

I've always been a great fan of Symphonic Choirs - damn fine library IMO - especially the boys choir. Wordbuilder is great too if complex. I've found myself either sticking with the Latin phrases like John does, or putting odd combinations of consonants and vowels to get the effect I want. Strange as it may seem, a really effective word is 'pepsicola.' :mrgreen: 

The other thing I've done on a few projects is to get an approximate phrase knocked up in wordbuilder and then sing over the top and then sit my voice right back in the mix; then layer my wife's voice over the top too. So you still have the choir sound but with more defined words. 

HTH

Cheers


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## rayinstirling (Dec 16, 2008)

Hey Rousseau,

Your input here is most valuable along with the others.
I'm studying the instruction videos as we speak and John's right. It is near impossible to get any kind of meaningful noises from wordbuilder without that study.
My wife is tone deaf so I'll have to do some falsetto work myself. Where's Maurice G when I need him.

I'm up for the challenge but now need lyrics to move it forward ????

*Thanks to all who have already posted or will post some advice here.
As far as I am concerned it's most certainly worth a few dollars towards running the forum for this and other nuggets of info gain by being a member here.*

Cheers

Ray


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## JohnG (Dec 17, 2008)

Listening to the new version with the close mics, I think it's a little "too" close, actually. If you blend a bit of the Stage and Hall mics in as well, or more of them, perhaps it would sound more like that "cathedral Christmas morning" or "Bach at Riems" sound?

And of course some of the syllables are jumping out a bit more than others, but it would take a bit more work to get those happening.

One other thought, apart from the fact that it's a very nice piece, is that the trumpet sounds a bit tubby on just a few notes. I like the way the line moves but it's just so low in the sample's range that it sounds a bit distracting to me.

But I like the piece and continue to think a choral soc would eat it up.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 17, 2008)

Hi Ray,

nice writing, and I think the second version has much more pronounciation (sp?) on it. Though somehow some of the short notes sound a little manieristically short compared to the first version.

Best
Hannes


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## rayinstirling (Dec 18, 2008)

JohnG @ Thu Dec 18 said:


> Listening to the new version with the close mics, I think it's a little "too" close, actually. If you blend a bit of the Stage and Hall mics in as well, or more of them, perhaps it would sound more like that "cathedral Christmas morning" or "Bach at Riems" sound?


ok John I've added some hall mic and a little more Riems.


JohnG @ Thu Dec 18 said:


> And of course some of the syllables are jumping out a bit more than others, but it would take a bit more work to get those happening.


Well early days here using this software


JohnG @ Thu Dec 18 said:


> One other thought, apart from the fact that it's a very nice piece, is that the trumpet sounds a bit tubby on just a few notes. I like the way the line moves but it's just so low in the sample's range that it sounds a bit distracting to me.


Well the brass is provided by WIVI the trumpet setup based on Rob's work. I can hear the sound in my head I'm looking for but just can't quite get it recorded.

I'll have to write real words for this before offering it to a choral society.

Thanks for your help John

Ray


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## rayinstirling (Dec 18, 2008)

Hannes_F @ Thu Dec 18 said:


> Hi Ray,
> 
> nice writing, and I think the second version has much more pronounciation (sp?) on it. Though somehow some of the short notes sound a little manieristically short compared to the first version.
> 
> ...


Hi Hannes,

That smiling look I see cheers me up :D 
I'm glad you approve. This is the first time I've used wordbuilder and I can see how many different ways it can be used for effect good and bad. Hopefully after a few more goes at it I'll make some progress. It's certainly fun trying.

Regards

Ray


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## Craig Sharmat (Dec 23, 2008)

is the link gone?


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## rayinstirling (Jan 9, 2009)

Craig Sharmat @ Tue Dec 23 said:


> is the link gone?



Craig,

I originally posted the cue using my wimpy player and of course now find it doesn't work with the latest version of flash player so I'm in the process of getting the latest version of rave working. In the mean time I've reposted a direct link to the mp3 above.
I've remixed the track trying to create a bit more space in it.

Ray


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## Rob (Jan 9, 2009)

wow Ray, I missed this one... I like it a lot, the choir seems to work fine here and the organ is also very good. Thanks for reposting the link, really nice piece. BTW, do you know why symphonic choir has disappeared from eastwest site?

Roberto


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## rayinstirling (Jan 9, 2009)

Rob @ Fri Jan 09 said:


> BTW, do you know why symphonic choir has disappeared from eastwest site?
> 
> Roberto



Thanks Roberto I'm glad you approve,
I'm sure you'll remember when I first posted this piece in another forum but even then I thought it needed the choir. I've had EWQLSC since September but even then it wasn't on the EW site. I found a copy in a national music store here in the UK.
Probably it's in the development stages of appearing under the play engine. Probably it is proving difficult to convert because of word builder etc.

Ray


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## handz (Jan 9, 2009)

Ray, this is a very nice piece! I like the sound of it. Choir isn´t perfect but it works fine.


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## rayinstirling (Jan 10, 2009)

handz @ Fri Jan 09 said:


> Choir isn´t perfect but it works fine.



I wonder if you would explain why you think the choir isn't right so I may investigate any changes towards bettering the performance.

I'm not sure why you would use the word 'perfect' because I'm always conscious that it's the creation of 'imperfections' (within reasonable boundaries) in virtual instrument music that help to give a more realistic performance.


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## JohnG (Jan 10, 2009)

Hi Ray,

One other suggestion. You have the strings coming in right on top of the choir, in the same range, in their first / main entrance. I wouldn't do that. 

I would certainly have the strings play in the introduction along with the brass, so that you introduce those colours, but I think they interfere with one's hearing the choir properly. They certainly get in the way of understanding the text.

At the climax of a lot of the anthems we used to sing in school, and in plenty of Bach/Handel etc., everybody plays, and often the text is repeated, or sung in octaves, so that either you've already heard it or it's mostly just an effect.

Obviously your piece is your piece, but this is an observation.


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## Joanne Babunovic (Jan 29, 2009)

Hi Ray, 

Appreciate the work you put into this and really fun to listen to. Was this EWQLSC PLAY or an earlier version pre-Play? 

Thanks,
Jo


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## rayinstirling (Jan 29, 2009)

JohnG @ Sat Jan 10 said:


> Hi Ray,
> 
> One other suggestion. You have the strings coming in right on top of the choir, in the same range, in their first / main entrance. I wouldn't do that.



John,

Sorry about the delay in replying. I actually forgot to check here recently and following being away for a few days Joanne had brought this back up the board.

I Hear your suggestions and I will return to this piece when I get a few real words lined up for it which of course may involve a few little changes to the format. To answer the the question about the strings and voices together is fairly straight forward. I simply added the choir on top of the original score. I didn't even think about making room for the vocals in the mix by removing anything and I know you said earlier it would work with just choir and organ. Thanks again for your interest in this.

Regards

Ray


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## rayinstirling (Jan 29, 2009)

Joanne Babunovic @ Thu Jan 29 said:


> Hi Ray,
> 
> Appreciate the work you put into this and really fun to listen to. Was this EWQLSC PLAY or an earlier version pre-Play?
> 
> ...



Hi Joanne,

I love it you saying it's fun to listen because I was feeling pretty fragile at the time I wrote it. :D being it's meant to be part of a requiem for myself. Something grand for a peasant's send off. :lol: 

This is definitely pre-play EWQLSC. I don't want to get involved in some of the heated debate going on around Play but I'm not sure I would wish to update anytime soon. I've just had a nasty surprise with my Gold Complete Play version. It was working great and now I'm thinking of removing it and doing a complete reload because all of a sudden trying to run a couple of instances is crackling and faltering badly. I don't know what I've changed but it's become pretty useless now.

Ray


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