# Orchestral instrument panning/placement for midi projects - What do you do?



## AlexandraMusic (Nov 2, 2016)

Hello!

I know there are many ways to approach this, from the tried and tested traditional methods to doing whatever the hell sounds good to your ears and creates the right balance for the piece (of course can all be interchangeable per piece due to the various different instruments/dynamics you may have going on)...but..I'm intrigued by peoples methods. Overall, for orchestral arrangements, what works for you best?

I know this topic has probably been brought up so many times but I couldn't seem to find a specific thread!

Thanks


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## Svyato (Nov 2, 2016)

Depend on the music... the dynamics... the instruments... the group of instruments... an idea among many is putting the low ranged instruments (what does the bass) on the left and the highest on the right... and put the percu in the middle... but again, it depends on the music, the context, the intentions, and the balance inside the music ... if you're clear with the ideas you want to express within your music, you can lean on it by clearing each role of every instrument/group of instrument. You can start from the ideas... you can start from high/low ranged ... they're so many ways to panning. But your ear is your best friend.


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## John Busby (Nov 2, 2016)

i'm still testing the waters in this department too
i really like how Nick Phoenix engineered the hollywood orchestra, all of the patches are placed in the stereo field which is nice.
of course you can change that with the mic placements but personally i found this really helped me understand different techniques with playing with the stereo image.

also, mid side processing
mono the lows and spread the highs
it's amazing how this one little trick can make a mix sound huge
at the moment i'm doing this really hard on synth patches


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## AlexandraMusic (Nov 2, 2016)

I like putting 2nd violins left. I tend to put basses centre but sometimes worry about it messing with the violas. I use VSS2 to experiment!


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## Jdiggity1 (Nov 2, 2016)

I'd say that most people creating orchestral mockups try to emulate the way a real orchestra would sound.
A good place to start for this is by following a typical seating arrangement for a live orchestra.
High strings on the left, low strings on the right.
Horns a bit to the left, other brass more to the right. (Even this can change from piece to piece)
Percussion and piano go where sounds best, generally behind the rest.

As helpful as comments here can be, I think you'd learn more (and quicker) by simply listening to a few orchestral pieces.


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## muk (Nov 2, 2016)

A while ago I posted a tutorial how I set up my Dimension Strings template:

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/vsl-dimension-strings-template-tutorial.44806/

If you scroll down a bit there's a part where I write about spatialization (including a short comparison showing the difference between panning a whole section vs panning each individual player). Most often I go with an orchestral seating as outlined by Jdiggity1, though sometimes I swap violas and celli, or have first violins to the left and the second violins to the right.


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## AlexandraMusic (Nov 2, 2016)

Thanks! yes I always look at seating plans (although some do vary) and always check classical pieces for reference also.


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## AlexandraMusic (Nov 2, 2016)

muk said:


> A while ago I posted a tutorial how I set up my Dimension Strings template:
> 
> http://vi-control.net/community/threads/vsl-dimension-strings-template-tutorial.44806/
> 
> If you scroll down a bit there's a part where I write about spatialization (including a short comparison showing the difference between panning a whole section vs panning each individual player). Most often I go with an orchestral seating as outlined by Jdiggity1, though sometimes I swap violas and celli, or have first violins to the left and the second violins to the right.



Thanks!

I think the trick for me is that I do often use ethnic percussion/electronic deep/low beats alongside the orchestral arrangements (as well as other instruments) and also vocals. So I'm experimenting with the balance/placement and how to give each instrument it's own space so it can shine, whilst complimenting other parts yet avoiding treading on any toes!! I'm trusting my ears but just curious to see how other people approach certain things


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## ZeroZero (Nov 2, 2016)

The first question is do you need to emulate an orchestra, a chamber orchestra, what period...I assume one of these...
Then of course simple volume cc brings instruments forward and back, which is part of the picture


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## Living Fossil (Nov 2, 2016)

Jdiggity1 said:


> I'd say that most people creating orchestral mockups try to emulate the way a real orchestra would sound.
> A good place to start for this is by following a typical seating arrangement for a live orchestra.
> High strings on the left, low strings on the right.



Just don't forget that this seating arrangement was originally introduced due to the limitations of the early recording technique (that's why all bass instruments are on the right side).
Traditionally the second violins were at the right.
(Tschaikowski's "Pathetique" e.g. profits enormously from this original arrangement).
However, some violinists still prefer the new arrangement since it makes intonation easier.

Personally, i use mostly these two arrangements (according to the music), but sometimes i vary it or use
totally different positions.


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## John Busby (Nov 2, 2016)

@ZeroZero
is it still the first question when it's repeated 5 times


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## Lassi Tani (Nov 2, 2016)

If using tree mic for the patches, shouldn't you leave panning as it is? For close mics, you should pan, right? E.g. I'm using Berlin Strings tree mics, and I'm not panning at all, just pushing the instruments back with Eareverb2. If using tree mics for all instruments, then doing midside processing, doesn't that mess up everything?

@ZeroZero Maybe instead of CC I would just use the channel volume for placement, because the placement wouldn't change during a track? 

Here's what @marclawsonmusic said about placement in his Mars mockup thread:



marclawsonmusic said:


> EQ and relative volume are probably more important for establishing a sense of distance than reverb


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## chibear (Nov 2, 2016)

I happened to have a project open when I read your post so put together a short video on how I'm approaching panning, done from a musician's perspective.


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## AlexandraMusic (Nov 2, 2016)

Thank you so much for that! It's incredibly interesting to see/hear your approach and opinion.

I've heard from quite a few people that they like to put basses in the centre (when it comes to midi work) which lead to me trying it and I have found that works for me too. But as I usually have my 2nd violins opposite my 1st violins, I wonder then about the best placement for celli and violas with the basses in the centre. I suppose I could shift the violas towards the 1st violins a bit more and have celli where the basses usually are..

I've tried quite a few different variations, sometimes I just can't make my mind up!


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## JohnG (Nov 2, 2016)

if you have a particular recording, listening with headphones can be instructive. Given what you describe about your music, I'd recommend checking out Thomas Newman's scores. 

If you listen, for example, to "Inflection Points" from the score for The Adjustment Bureau, it's almost startling how stark the panning is. Orchestra plus guitars, piano, drum kit elements plus regular orchestral percussion, some unusual instruments here and there -- a very cool sound and maybe something like what you described you're writing.


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## chibear (Nov 2, 2016)

If you are going to want to replicate that setup with real musicians, be aware that there will be balance problems between 1st and 2nd violins because of the f hole issue I outlined. Basses in the center would work fine IMO as the timbre is far enough from violas it shouldn't matter. Once you introduce winds and brass there are sight line issues that would occur in a real ensemble.


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## marclawsonmusic (Nov 2, 2016)

sekkosiki said:


> Here's what @marclawsonmusic said about placement in his Mars mockup thread:



In the context of orchestral libraries recorded in situ (e.g. CineBrass or CineWinds), you don't have to worry about panning or 'placement in the room' since these were already recorded in a room in the correct position. If you try to change the panning, depth, etc. of these libraries using placement tools, this can sometimes introduce sonic artifacts and other unpleasantness, so 'less is more' is a good idea.

I did find that rolling off the low and high frequencies and decreasing volume seemed to make even 'in situ' instruments seem farther away. I cannot hear sub-bass frequencies (nor the super-high) of a bass flute from 15-20 meters, but definitely at < 1 meter (close mic) or even 3-5 meters (tree / room mic). So, using a tree / room mic, rolling off some highs and lows, and decreasing volume seems to trick the ear into thinking the instrument is farther away - even without reverb. That's just my observation... I am not an acoustician or engineer.

The other point in my thread was that reverb is not the ONLY tool needed to create distance (although people talk about it the most around here). If you route a close-mic'd trumpet (e.g. Sample Modeling) to the best reverb, it will still sound close due to all the high frequencies. So, it's a good idea to use EQ, and volume... in addition to reverb... to create a perception of distance.


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## KEnK (Nov 27, 2016)

Living Fossil said:


> Just don't forget that this seating arrangement was originally introduced due to the limitations of the early recording technique (that's why all bass instruments are on the right side).


Really?
It's not a 19th century convention?
Seems like the seating is what's best for the instrument groups that play together.
brass near basses/cellos 
ww behind strgs
perc as far away from everyone as possible


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## Living Fossil (Nov 27, 2016)

KEnK said:


> Really?
> It's not a 19th century convention?
> Seems like the seating is what's best for the instrument groups that play together.
> brass near basses/cellos
> ...



No, the modern position (also called: Amerikanische Sitzordung) was introduced by Leopold Stokowski in the 20th century.

The "Bamberger Symphoniker" (and some other orchestras) still play with the old placement:

http://www.bamberg.info/tn_img/1180318_bamberger_symphoniker_2009_1.jpg

And here is a youtube video with the Gustav Mahler Youth orchestra, playing Mahler. The positions equal to the placement that Mahler used.


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## KEnK (Nov 27, 2016)

Living Fossil said:


> the modern position (also called: Amerikanische Sitzordung) was introduced by Leopold Stokowski in the 20th century.
> 
> The "Bamberger Symphoniker" (and some other orchestras) still play with the old placement:


Interesting- Hard to see the positioning in that pic, but it does look like basses/cellos are on the right. Always assumed that seating was a tried and true seating plan- because it makes sense section-wise. 
I tried just now to look up a "19th century seating plan", but I don't know that I scored anything correct. 
Do you have an accurate link to historical seating?
You've probably seen this- but for those who haven't it's a variety of seating plans.
http://andrewhugill.com/manuals/seating.html


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## CT (Nov 27, 2016)

A good audible example of a more historical seating (split violins, basses/celli on the left) is Howard Shore's LOTR trilogy. Interestingly, I've found that to be less convincing, when applied to samples, than the traditional seating is. Both have their virtues, depending on how you write and orchestrate.


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## JJP (Nov 27, 2016)

I explained some of this in an old thread that may be helpful. I worked on the LOTR films, and the way the strings are positioned is one of the examples in this post

http://www.vi-control.net/community/posts/3572927/

Edit: linked to specific post rather than whole thread.


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## muk (Nov 28, 2016)

In everyday use the seating is much more diverse than you would think. Not much that is set in stone. The conductor gets a say of course, but there are many pragmatic decisions in play as well. For example, in our orchestra, if some players were seated directly in front of the trumpets, you won't seat them there again the next evening. It depends on the music too, of course. If two instruments have an important 'duet', you'd usually try to seat them relatively closely together. Unless the conductor says 'stereo effect!', that is, in which case the players will be seated far apart.
There is a well known conductor (a specialist for italian opera) who insists that all string sections must be seated on the left, and all winds on the right. I would have to read up on the topic, but I think historically there were many different seating plans. All that being said, the 'european' and the 'american' seating are probably most often used today. When in doubt, these are the two layouts to be oriented towards.


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## WhiteNoiz (Nov 28, 2016)

The one I'm used to and prefer is something like this:






It may vary a bit but that's the base. (Another usual variable is woods more to the left, brass more to the left and straighter, perc to the right)

Btw, here's one from a Desplat live concert (if I remember it correctly):
Lol, fuck it, http://s25.postimg.org/xcs3dhpfh/Desplat_frontpage.jpg (here's an image). The solo violinist playing at some point was next to Desplat, in front of the V1s (or at the little space right next to them). Piano+cel+harp were grouped at the left (found that interesting). Solo flute I think was right next to the celesta or something. You can probably find many more, but I was there and I remember this one quite clearly. I think there were close mics on the celesta and timpani to make them sound more defined (that or the timps were indeed massive sounding by themselves).


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## Living Fossil (Nov 28, 2016)

KEnK said:


> Interesting- Hard to see the positioning in that pic, but it does look like basses/cellos are on the right. Always assumed that seating was a tried and true seating plan- because it makes sense section-wise.
> I tried just now to look up a "19th century seating plan", but I don't know that I scored anything correct.
> Do you have an accurate link to historical seating?
> You've probably seen this- but for those who haven't it's a variety of seating plans.
> http://andrewhugill.com/manuals/seating.html



I have literature in German, but it's not so easy to provide internet links in english...
Our culture suffers from Alzheimer's disease and it seams that only few specialists are interested in the topic.

However, in the youtube video there are some interesting views. The seating here differs from the seating of the Bamberger; the Gewandhausorchester Leipiz also uses a historical placement, by the way.


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