# Cubase users - how do you manage TEMPO changes for Reel/Entire score



## Rob Elliott (Mar 20, 2019)

Hi there,

I am curious as to how my fellow Cubasers manage tempo changes to a score (by reel or an entire score in one Cubase project).

I have always found it a pain when a change comes to one or more cues in the 'middle' of the project (20 min reel or 90 min entire project) - if that change has a tempo change then everything 'downstream' gets shifted incorrectly.

I'd love to hear your workflow in such a situation.

Many thanks,

Rob


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## DS_Joost (Mar 20, 2019)

Watching this thread because I would like to know this as well!


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## Sample Fuel (Mar 20, 2019)

Hi Rob,

I don't work all in one Cubase project anymore for a number of reasons but did do it for a period of time. The best way I found was to make a "New Version" of the Tempo track and Signature track for each cue. So 1M1 would be a "version" then 1M2 would be a new 'version", etc.... 

By doing this it resets the tempo and signature track fresh for each cue. If you get a fix all you need to do is switch the tempo and signature track back to the correct version (cue number) and all the midi data magically goes back to where it should be lined up.


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## alexkishmusic (Mar 20, 2019)

It sounds like you have all the cues for the project in one session. I've found best way to avoid the shifting issue with cues is to have a separate session for every cue. That way you never have to worry about a tempo change in one cue affecting any other cue in a project. If you want to have bounces of other cues in the project for reference (say the cue before the one you're currently working on) you could set a large bar offset in the session setup. I have a 5000 bar offset in my template so the first bar in my session is -5000, that way I could add as many bounces of previous cues as I want for reference, and my music for the current cue can start at bar 1 (or 3, as I like to start there). Hope that helps!


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## holywilly (Mar 20, 2019)

Each of my cues has its own session, that’s the best way to manage my film project for any modification. 

I know that DP has exclusive chunk feature that make the best management for film scoring, however, I cannot live without the workflow with Cubase expression map. Let’s hoping Steinberg comes up with something like DP’s chunk, that will make my dreams come true as a long time Cubase user for film scoring.


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## Bender-offender (Mar 20, 2019)

Rob, you can create two blank MIDI tracks, set one to time-based and the other to beat-based. Create a blank region on the time-based track at the new start time you're trying to reach. Then place a blank region on the beat-based track on the first beat of the cue start. Adjust your tempo track to get both MIDI regions to line up as close as you can (if not exact). You may need to lock the MIDI regions so they aren't accidentally moved.

I had to do this exact thing recently and I found switching back and forth in the timeline from "timecode" (and Grid Type to frames) back to "Bars and Beats" helped get it exact.


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## VinRice (Mar 20, 2019)

Always a pain whatever DAW you are in. I don't know if doing I'm doing it the most efficient way but I'll make a master project of the full reel and then copies for each Cue. Spot the tempos and hit points for each cue individually, create the (stunningly awesome and clearly award-winning) music for that cue, render the stereo/stems from a convenient and easily noted timecode point and conform back into the master project. I can't imagine any other way of doing it - but I'll bet there is.


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## Rob Elliott (Mar 21, 2019)

Great food for thoughts guys. I suspected that there would a LOT of different ways to do it. As VinRice says 'always a pain'. But here is how I have been doing it.

All cues are in a Reel (or 'act'/ commercial break - if TV). I write the music of the reel/act - submit to client for review and if no 'tempo' changes resulting from notes - of course good to go. It is amazing to me how often there are NO tempo changes (if they want more energy doubling timing a figure - 8ths to 16th notes often handle the request). But when there are cue wholesale changes and tempo is affected - I'll then make a separate project for just THAT 'changed' cue.

The original reel/act in final stems is sent to dub mixer and then any 'missing orphan' cues are sent separately (all with specific TC in file name).

I don't like to render to audio as it seems I am 'tweaking midi' (either personal desire or a late middle of the night client email - until the final final mix 

This may be laziness but in the heat of as FAST TV film schedule (like the next project) - I like the 'projects' to be as long as possible (reel or multiple reels even) - to 'grab' midi to re-purpose a previous cue idea. Of course in Cubase I can open a previous project and just grab that midi but saving a step often helps the 'flow'.

The challenge with that could be a reel getting corrupted (thank heavens for auto save every 15 mins) 

Is this workflow without its shortcoming? - of course not. But glaring weaknesses to you guys?


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## holywilly (Mar 21, 2019)

I found this video tutorial quite helpful, it’s quite a solution for Cubase.


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## Rob Elliott (Mar 21, 2019)

holywilly said:


> I found this video tutorial quite helpful, it’s quite a solution for Cubase.



Oh my - that IS helpful. I started using cycle markers a couple years ago (for ease of exporting cues and their stems) BUT THIS - WITH - the 'range tool' is going to save me tons of time editing. Thanks so much for posting!!!!!! (going back to watch it again - big workflow improvement.)


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## Rob Elliott (Mar 21, 2019)

There is only one issue with using range tool and cycle markers. If you split screen your project window (so you have vid, signature, marker tracks, etc. at top ONLY - allowing you to scroll the project's 500+ midi tracks whilst still seeing the upper aforementioned tracks...) double clicking on the cycle marker ONLY copies what is in that 'upper' split screen.

Not to worry as the 'Global Copy' in edit/range is an option.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Mar 23, 2019)

Composers friend of mine, that scored the Money Heist hit, told me about this a couple of months ago:
Do a global copy of all of the material that takes place after the new tempo change, and paste one hour past their original position.
This way, all of your work is preserved, independently from the changes you have to make...


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## Rob Elliott (Mar 23, 2019)

Patrick de Caumette said:


> Composers friend of mine, that scored the Money Heist hit, told me about this a couple of months ago:
> Do a global copy of all of the material that takes place after the new tempo change, and paste one hour past their original position.
> This way, all of your work is preserved, independently from the changes you have to make...


Hey Patrick - thanks for the idea but I am not sure I understand. Say I have a 20 min reel/act and then change something at the 10 min mark (tempo) but still would like the send the entire 20 min act stems in one go at final mix - after the 10 min cue adjustments. I must be missing something but how does global copying everything past that 10 min cue and moving a hour downstream help?

Thanks again for jumping in on this.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Mar 30, 2019)

I guess it allows you to develop your changed cue without worrying about colliding or messing up tempo information for the following parts/cues that you want to preserve.
Once you are done with the changes, you can always bring back the moved material to the time code location of your choice...


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## VinRice (Mar 30, 2019)

Yeah, the problem is you often need a preceding tempo change to allow your in-point for the cue to hit where you want. That tempo change needs to happen during the dead time between music cues and be anchored so that it doesn't mess up the previous cue (if you want to run successive cues in the same project). Sometimes you don't have the space (especially if it is to be performed and you need a click lead-in), and splitting projects is the only answer. I _think_ that's what we are talking about.


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## VinRice (Mar 30, 2019)

Sample Fuel said:


> Hi Rob,
> 
> I don't work all in one Cubase project anymore for a number of reasons but did do it for a period of time. The best way I found was to make a "New Version" of the Tempo track and Signature track for each cue. So 1M1 would be a "version" then 1M2 would be a new 'version", etc....
> 
> By doing this it resets the tempo and signature track fresh for each cue. If you get a fix all you need to do is switch the tempo and signature track back to the correct version (cue number) and all the midi data magically goes back to where it should be lined up.



I like this idea. I'm moving from Logic to Cubase/Nuendo and forgot you could have multiple tempo tracks.


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## VinRice (Mar 30, 2019)

Except you can only have one Tempo and Signature track per project, so I don't get it... unless you mean saving out and importing tempo tracks?


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## Sample Fuel (Apr 1, 2019)

VinRice said:


> Except you can only have one Tempo and Signature track per project, so I don't get it... unless you mean saving out and importing tempo tracks?



You can have different track versions of the tempo and signature track just like any other track type in Cubase.


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## DS_Joost (Apr 1, 2019)

Sample Fuel said:


> You can have different track versions of the tempo and signature track just like any other track type in Cubase.



Now if only you could have different versions of the video track, with a different video file in each, the problem would be solved...


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## colony nofi (Apr 2, 2019)

So I have often attempted the multiple cues in one session thing in nuendo (cubase) but its always ended up in a nightmare for me. I often change tempos... especially when fiddling with cues / finding new hitpoints to try and compose to... not to mention what happens for a re-write where its a completely different tempo / you need to remove bars as its slowed WAY down / changes into a completely different time sig etc.

I have had dialog going with a number of other composers in regards to trying to figure out a way of presenting a potential "multi-cue" feature to the devs. Its not easy. Loads of different composers with different needs / ideas on what is easy / what works etc. We were mucking around with things like virgin territory for the tempo track - and even two tempo tracks with virgin territory (to allow for overlapping cues / moving cues around). As well as tabbed cues using the same template (but that is restrictive in its own way) etc etc. About 2 years ago we got around 75% of the way to something that felt decent, but hit some road blocks / I got too busy to keep ushering the troops. But maybe after the next project is done I'll get back into it. Its not easy - and there's no guarantee SB will agree with us on the idea even once we write it up / document the idea properly. I have spoken to various SB folks who are aware of all of this. Seems that it is definitely a HARD problem .

So I run cubase + nuendo at the same time, time code locked to each other.
Cubase has the video track and all my rendered cues in it. All the different versions that I've done on different tracks. I present from this session, and the video for the whole project runs in this session. (All reels). It plays back the temp sound/sfx etc. 

Then nuendo has separate sessions (each in their own folder) for each cue and version of each cue. 

I have quite a set folder structure so I know what I've recently worked on / need to export / need to upload to the editor/director. As soon as cue is exported, it is loaded back into the cubase session. Works a dream - and you'd be surprised how quick it all works. (Especially through using cue export markers with names inside them etc). And the workflow allows an assistant to come in after hours and export / clean everything up for you if you're working really fast!

I've attached a screenshot of the folder structure... as well as a screenshot from cubase + nuendo projects. I can truthfully say this way of working saves SO much time, even though you are needing to do more exporting. 
This particular cue was done with NO tempo track - played it free - as it was what was required to make everything feel right. I'll go back and make a tempo track once its all signed off for the live recording (its only long notes for the quintet, and I'll be doing the piano which will make things easier / should be able to play it without tempo track being annoying with it changing all over the place!)

Oh - this method has the advantage of always starting at the same bar number (I use bar 5 these days) for every cue - making score prep for any live recordings, no matter how small, much easier. 

I had a short film (22 min long) end of last year which I did in one reel - I had to write it in a week - only for it to unexpectedly have a budget for a recording. The score prep was a nightmare - having to strip everything into individual sessions for the engineer (he's in tools!) and get individual tempo tracks to him etc etc. And I mucked up the whole reel on a daily basis doing various tempo changes. Turns out there was loads of music, and I re-wrote cues a number of times over that week with big changes.
Never again.


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## The Darris (Apr 2, 2019)

It's pretty simple for me. 1 session file per cue which will eventually be converted into a Pro Tools session for recording. Each cue will have it's own dedicated tempo map and click track for this.

For deliveries, I have a master DaVinci Resolve session for each Reel which I simply import each finished cue and assign to the timecode start points. It's merely for playback and review. I can also do a quick export of each cue's scene to send with my deliveries for review. This a new process to my workflow based on recommendations from this group which have proven to work really well.

I've done short films in single projects before. It can become a mess but if you organize your cue sheet well, you can simply adjust tempo points to realign your cues if you happen to change tempos in earlier cues in cases where you have revisions. Other than that, you will have to work a little more cautiously with the tempo considerations in mind. This is why I moved to single session cues. It limits my ability to screw things up.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 2, 2019)

I did this once, and never again. Once the director changes a scene, even by a fraction of a second, your whole session is screwed. Ever since, I have done one project per cue.

That being said, the Timewarp function can be handy.


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## VinRice (Apr 2, 2019)

Sample Fuel said:


> You can have different track versions of the tempo and signature track just like any other track type in Cubase.



Ach, of course. Thanks for that.


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## colony nofi (Apr 2, 2019)

The Darris said:


> It's pretty simple for me. 1 session file per cue which will eventually be converted into a Pro Tools session for recording. Each cue will have it's own dedicated tempo map and click track for this.
> 
> For deliveries, I have a master DaVinci Resolve session for each Reel which I simply import each finished cue and assign to the timecode start points. It's merely for playback and review. I can also do a quick export of each cue's scene to send with my deliveries for review. This a new process to my workflow based on recommendations from this group which have proven to work really well.
> 
> I've done short films in single projects before. It can become a mess but if you organize your cue sheet well, you can simply adjust tempo points to realign your cues if you happen to change tempos in earlier cues in cases where you have revisions. Other than that, you will have to work a little more cautiously with the tempo considerations in mind. This is why I moved to single session cues. It limits my ability to screw things up.


Does Resolve have the ability to chase timecode? It could make a GREAT system for double system workflow.

I didn't mention in my previous post a further big reason I keep video separate to my cues: replacing reels after new edits inevitably occur is only a matter of changing the video file in the video session. The only thing you might need to do in each cue is move the TC start point to make sure the music starts at the right place. No bringing in video files into ALL your cues (and any mucking around that might occur with temp dialog etc etc!). Oh, and you can even open up multiple DAWS to reference the video. Why? It makes checking your deliveries to protools very very smooth. 

So VideoSlave is a great system, but doesn't yet have all the tools I need for making my WIP deliveries compared to cubase. (Basically, just looking for some really basic volume automation to be possible!) . https://non-lethal-applications.com/video-slave-4-standard

Cheers, B.


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## PaulieDC (Sep 2, 2020)

holywilly said:


> I found this video tutorial quite helpful, it’s quite a solution for Cubase.



At 7:30 I got my answer that I came on here for! Thank you for posting this a year ago!


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