# Performance of Windows on Mac Pro 4/5,1?



## mjsalam (Jun 19, 2021)

Any thoughts on running Windows on Mac Pro 4/5,1 vs patched Big Sur? Currently I've got Big Sur on their and its very stable but I can't apply OS updates...not a huge deal but it does compound over time. I keep thinking I should just get Windows on there and be done with it - wondering though how well it performs by comparison. Thanks for any input here.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 19, 2021)

Windows 10 runs very well on my 5,1. I installed it in legacy bootcamp mode so it doesn’t even need OpenCore. 

Big Sur should not be updated past 11.2.3 on the 5,1 at this time. Apple has introduced some design changes to the boot process that randomly hangs during boot up, and in a way that it can corrupt your data. This affects the 5,1 in particular and apparently some hackintoshes also. Some great minds in the OpenCore are actively trying to figure it out but it’s left to be seen whether they will be able to without insider info from apple. They might eventually but the word for now is that 5,1 should not be updated past Big Sur 11.2.3

The early access version of Monterey also has this problem.

DosDude has said that he will make a Patcher for Monterrey, but it has yet to be done, maybe he will figure it out.

I’m leaving my 5,1 on Catalina for the foreseeable future, which I have been very happy with. I see no compelling reason to need newer macOS at this time. By the time it gets to a point where I feel like I need newer, it will probably be time to get an ARM Mac or switch to windows. The good news is the 5,1 runs the very latest version of windows10 without any issues so far. It is a completely viable way to keep using this hardware for many years to come in some capacity, but leaving it on Catalina or even Mojave for numerous years in some capacity is also perfectly viable. Old versions of macOS do become more problematic after maybe five years as some software won’t work well in it, whereas this problem is much less of an issue on windows, so I suspect in five years from now my 5,1 will be running only windows; unless dosdude or some other guru figures out how to use Monterrey+ on it, we shall see


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## mjsalam (Jun 19, 2021)

Fantastic information and perspective. Thank you.


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## Markus Kohlprath (Jun 20, 2021)

Interesting info. I run Mojave on a 5,1 and have no desire to change. But if it becomes necessary what is the best way to go to Big Sur or further in the moment in your opinion?


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## mjsalam (Jun 20, 2021)

I can't quite remember the process followed now - micro patcher or something like that. Anyhow its been super stable and performant (which leads me to feel that artificially blocking its installation on legacy hardware is kinda despicable - just call it unsupported hardware no?). But the threat/pain of updating always has me considering Windows ... but then all my other stuff is Apple. 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 20, 2021)

The easiest way to run Catalina is probably using dosdude’s Patched installer, very easy a quick process and you’ll be running Catalina no problem. Keep a backup of Mojave around to test out Catalina for a while first. I have been very happy with Catalina though, but I use OpenCore and I can’t vouch for sure about dosdude’s patch because I only tried it once for one day. It seemed to work but I haven’t thoroughly vetted it. I think it probably works fine but I am not sure about whether it handles gpu acceleration or not properly or a few things like that.

OpenCore can handle all the gpu acceleration, etc… totally fine with Catalina but it is NOT trivial to setup. Like WAY not. It in the end I chose that for more control now and into future and I like it a lot. But you must be a bit of a tech nerd to set it up, otherwise don’t try it.

Windows does not require OpenCore you can setup a bootcamp windows install but it gets a little challenging because the metal card you put in your Mac to run Mojave no longer has a boot screen. So I’m not 100% sure what the process would to set that up without a boot screen.

What i did is use an alternative boot screen program called RefindPlus, which is also not trivial to setup. But it lets me choose at boot time whether to boot up as OpenCore Catalina, native Mojave or bootcamp windows. Very happy with this setup but I can’t emphasize enough that it’s not for the faint of heart to setup.

I have already a very long thread available with steps and links on this forum, search for “5,1 relic”.

I do not reccomend Big Sur at all until further notice.

I do not reccomend Monterey at all until further notice. Dosdude says he is going to make a patched version. If he does that may turn out to be the best way, and skip Big Sur entirely. But we shall see.

Fwiw I tried Big Sur 11.2.3 which is known to work fine in OpenCore, but I didn’t like Big Sur at all. I feel apple ruined the desktop GUI and it performed noticeably worse, benchmarked worse too, at least in the 5,1. My usb midi controller did not function and some software in the audio community is still not 100% ready for Big Sur on ANY Mac. So as far as I’m concerned there is no rush to get to Big Sur+ for now. I very likely will remain on Catalina until I potentially buy an ARM mac at some point in a couple years. Mojave would be fine too honestly, but I am able to run the latest version of logicpro on Catalina and frankly I do think it runs slightly smoother throughout the OS then Mojave. But it also lost 32 bit app support, which I haven’t needed so far but there is that. Catalina also brings in a newer version of APFS with pros and cons.

I posted a link on that other thread for how to setup windows in legacy mode (bootcamp). Like i said I have a more elaborate setup in order to dual boot different ways, but in the future we may opt to just install windows in legacy mode and never boot macOS again, in which case maybe later I will document an easy way to do that, but we’re years away from that conclusion.


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## Markus Kohlprath (Jun 20, 2021)

Thank you for the detailed reply. So in the moment Mojave it is. Until there is real pressure to change. It doesn't so bad after all.


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## mjsalam (Jun 20, 2021)

Thoughts on upgrading to dual cpu tray vs just putting that money towards a new build/system?


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 20, 2021)

I'm not ready to buy an ARM Mac, so my money would go to maxing out a 5,1 for the next couple years. But opinions are wildly divergent on this topic. There are many factors. Do you use any PCI based devices? Are you already using a lot of TB3 devices? What kind of storage do you have?, I personally have $1000 invested in sata3 SSD drives in my 5,1... the CPU tray upgrade is actually less then that, and don't forget you can sell your old tray on eBay....or better yet just sell the whole computer and buy a refurbished 5,1 that has already been upgraded with the tray and cpus. I actually bought my 5,1 that way to begin with. For me that is preferable to have a box with my storage inside it, and PCI slots for several important cards I use, and the display monitors of my own choosing. The only other alternative is to buy a super expensive 2019 MP. 

At the other end some people will say the love working on a mini or iMac.... Of course they have storage dangling all over the place, no PCI slots...so TB3 or USB devices only, etc. and for people that are comfortable working that way, then I personally think the i9 iMac is pretty sweet, as long as you're ok with 27" monitor, which I am not.

ARM is not ready IMHO.

In my view, the 5,1 is still the best Mac to use until ARM is move along further, for what we do. but some people will not agree with that. You can put some money into yours to make it work for a few more years and reconsider options later. If you change to something else, you may have to also change the storage you're using, the audio interface you're using...and possibly deal with a smaller monitor...etc...those will all cost at least as much as upgrading your CPU tray, quite likely.

just my two cents...


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 20, 2021)

plus, if you end up using the 5,1 as a dedicated windows box someday (see thread topic), then having an upgraded CPU tray will only make it that much better as a windows box. My 5,1 is maxed out and I'm still often blown away by how smooth and efficient it actually is with 12 cores. As long as the OS supports it, it is still very much a very capable my machine. The biggest downside has more to do with things like the fact its PCI buss is now outdated...it doesn't have USB3(though you can add a PCI card), it doesn't have TB3(you can add PCI card, but its not actually quite as fast as real TB3), the memory is slower then newer hardware, etc.. So ultimately..it is definitely showing some age when you break it down...but still...when you look at benchmarking of my maxed out 5,1, it does surprisingly well against many modern current intel Mac mini's, iMac's and MBP's...that many people are using today without blinking any eye.. No it can't keep up with the 2019 MP. But its still relevant when maxed out and in my view worthy to do a lot f useful stuff for years to come....particulatly if it has been maxed out.

You can easily use your maxed out 5,1 as a VePro server, for example....among many other things..running either Catalina/Mojave....or windows why not....

so anyway I guess it comes down to you and what you are going to use it for in the future. Will you continue using it, or will you throw it away in 2 years when the next gen awesome ARM Macs will be out? If you're gonna throw it out, then don't spend any more money on it, limp along for 2 more years. Or maybe its worth the money to upgrade it or trade it in for a bigger CPU tray...even just for those 2 years... but if you plan to keep using it...and I see no reason it won't be useful at a bare minimum as a pretty decent windows box for many years to come...then it could be totally worth it.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 20, 2021)

mjsalam said:


> Thoughts on upgrading to dual cpu tray vs just putting that money towards a new build/system?



here are benchmark comparisons of my maxed out 5,1 against other Macs...you can see where it sits in the lineup in terms of performance... As you can see, the single core performance is not great, but the multi-core performance keeps up quite well even with some of the latest Apple models (but not the 2019 MP of course).








*Single-Core*







*Multi-Core*


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## mjsalam (Jun 22, 2021)

Thanks so much @Dewdman42 for sharing so much on this topic. I’ve decided to keep on with the 5,1. Just got the dual CPU tray. CPU upgrades are on the way as is the additional 64GB. Are you leveraging a SATA card for your drives?


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 22, 2021)

A couple suggestions though. You can buy cpu trays with cpu already installed, on eBay or some Mac refurbishing companies will sell parts like that. It’s usually cost effective and easier to do that and sell your existing tray with its CPU’s as is; rather then mess around with trying to make sure you properly install CPU’s on a tray. Some of them will even take trade ins but not great trade in values.

Secondly I reccomend no more then 96gb on the 5,1. I recently pulled out some of my ram back down to 96gb and got a 25% improvement in benchmark score. I won’t go into the reasons you can google that. If you truly need all 128gb then fine, but I recommend 96 now.

I personally do have a sata3 card for two SSD’s but to be honest even though it benchmarked faster storage speeds I have found absolutely zero improvement in loading sample libs from those SSD’s vs from the sata2 slots. This is probably because sample libs are many small files being loaded. If you were loading single huge files like for some games then you might see an improvement. I would not waste time on a sata card, unless you simply need need more then 4 ssd drives. 

A usb3 card might be interesting if you use any external usb3 drives for backup or something like that. I personally don’t and basically whenever i do use an external usb drive it’s temporary and I don’t care that it’s slightly slower the usb3 would be.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 22, 2021)

one more comment about Windows, per thread topic. I did also run Geekbench on Windows bootcamp. It scored ~5% lower than directly on Mojave. That may or may not actually mean anything since GeekBench on windows may not be exactly the same as GeekBench on Mac...so its not clear that those scores can or should be compared. But just wanted to point it out. I also ran Novabench on both MacOS/Windows and NovaBench-Win scored more significantly worse on windows as compared to Mac. It measured slower memory transfer speeds, so not sure what is going on there, its possible that windows clocks down the ram a bit on windows...or...it could be like above, the windows version of NovaBench is not doing exactly the same work that the Mac version is and that the scores should not really be compared. (Shrug)

What I can say is that Windows10 feels very snappy as I use it on my 5,1....in some ways it feels snappier and smoother then MacOS... I happen to like MacOS a lot more for many other reasons. I have not as yet done comparisons with say, Cubase...to see which OS can handle more tracks...but again you starting getting into Cubase having a windows bias and probably coded better for windows then for Mac, etc.. so it starts to be a bit of a fine line and in the end, what I can say is that Windows10 runs very well on the 5,1 and I will not hesitate to use it when it gets to the point that the 5,1 can not realistically keep up with MacOS updates enough to be practical anymore...which as I said earlier...is still at least a few years away IMHO.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 26, 2021)

BTW - I just ran Microsoft's little tester app that tells you whether your pc can run the new Windows 11. I ran it on my 5,1 under bootcamp. It says no.







We shall see if the OpenCore crew figures out a way to do it....but windows11 longevity on the 5,1 doesn't look good at the moment. Microsoft finally pulled an "Apple"


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## mjsalam (Jun 26, 2021)

Here's hoping.


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## mjsalam (Jun 26, 2021)

Although frankly if I can just chill with Catalina or Big Sur and/or Windows 10 for the next 3-5 years it would be great.


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