# String quartet examples



## Rob (Sep 29, 2017)

hi all, I'd like to hear how different solo strings libraries perform in a real world kind of setting... I've prepared a midi file of first 60 bars of Debussy's strings quartet, and it would be nice and useful for me if someone who owns solo strings libraries could render this file, with all needed modifications. I'm especially interested in csss, vsl, bohemians, chris hein and embertone, but any would be fine really. I might be in need of a new quartet library, and so this comparison would help... I'm attaching the midifile and
a rendition I've done with swam solo strings. I like a lot the way they perform as real instruments, and will keep using them but I might need a different kind of tone for an upcoming job, so here's the reason for this thread... thank you in advance

www.robertosoggetti.com/Debussy-strngQtet60bars.mid

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/debussyqtet-swam-mp3.9857/][/AUDIOPLUS]

PS I did some beta testing of the swam library
PPS forgot to say cc11 is for dynamics/expression and cc1 for vibrato


----------



## rottoy (Sep 29, 2017)

Rob said:


> hi all, I'd like to hear how different solo strings libraries perform in a real world kind of setting... I've prepared a midi file of first 60 bars of Debussy's strings quartet, and it would be nice and useful for me if someone who owns solo strings libraries could render this file, with all needed modifications. I'm especially interested in csss, vsl, bohemians, chris hein and embertone, but any would be fine really. I might be in need of a new quartet library, and so this comparison would help... I'm attaching the midifile and
> a rendition I've done with swam solo strings. I like a lot the way they perform as real instruments, and will keep using them but I might need a different kind of tone for an upcoming job, so here's the reason for this thread... thank you in advance
> 
> www.robertosoggetti.com/Debussy-strngQtet60bars.mid
> ...


Damn, I absolutely love the flexbility of the phrasing with these, definitely hard to pull of with purely sample based libraries.
But I can't abide the nasal tone.


----------



## Rob (Sep 29, 2017)

rottoy said:


> Damn, I absolutely love the flexbility of the phrasing with these, definitely hard to pull of with purely sample based libraries.
> But I can't abide the nasal tone.



yeah, I understand... can you do a version with a different library, rottoy?


----------



## rottoy (Sep 29, 2017)

Rob said:


> yeah, I understand... can you do a version with a different library, rottoy?


When I have the time, I'll see what I can do!


----------



## Rob (Oct 4, 2017)

Bump...


----------



## Saxer (Oct 4, 2017)

Hi Rob,

I tried CSSS but it doesn't work at all with the same midi data.
I think it's absolutely possible to make it sound good (and even better tonewise than SM) but it's a very different workflow.

I sent you a pm for detail.


----------



## HiEnergy (Oct 4, 2017)

I could give it a try with the Prague strings. Is there a score available?


----------



## Arbee (Oct 4, 2017)

With VSL Solo Strings, just legato and legato fast attack articulations (automated to switch on playing speed via VI Pro). MIR PRO Vienna ORF Studio 3 (25:75% Wet:Dry). No other processing or MIDI tweaking (except to ignore CC1 Vibrato).

Edit: with sincere apologies to the ghost of Debussy, no idea where Brahms came into it with my file name, except that I had been listening to Brahms and he was on my mind .

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/brahms-string-quartet-vsl-mp3.9911/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Rob (Oct 4, 2017)

HiEnergy said:


> I could give it a try with the Prague strings. Is there a score available?



I posted a midifile in my first post, thought it was easier that way... cc11 for dynamics, cc1 for vibrato


----------



## Rob (Oct 4, 2017)

Arbee said:


> With VSL Solo Strings, just legato and legato fast attack articulations (automated to switch on playing speed via VI Pro). MIR PRO Vienna ORF Studio 3 (25:75% Wet:Dry). No other processing or MIDI tweaking (except to ignore CC1 Vibrato).
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/brahms-string-quartet-vsl-mp3.9911/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Thank you, Arbee, this is very good... with some care it could be even better, parts need some level balancing. I presume this is the full solo library?


----------



## Arbee (Oct 4, 2017)

Rob said:


> Thank you, Arbee, this is very good... with some care it could be even better, parts need some level balancing. I presume this is the full solo library?


Yes, without finessing CC11 and using more articulations it is rather brutal in places! Yes, this is the full solo library.


----------



## Rob (Oct 4, 2017)

Arbee said:


> Yes, without finessing CC11 and using more articulations it is rather brutal in places! Yes, this is the full solo library.



Well, vsl still manages to be among the best...


----------



## ptram (Oct 4, 2017)

VSL Solo Strings, here, too. This, too, in ORF Studio 3. There are no changes in vibrato. I added some articulation changes to Violin I.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/debussy-string-quartet-vsl-mp3.9928/][/AUDIOPLUS]

EDIT: A long time after, I could apply articulations to all four instruments. The new ArtID in Logic is a lot faster than any methods I had to use in the past.

I'll leave the old Violin I-only rendition online, so that one can compare a rougher piece to one with all the needed articulations.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/debussy-stringquartet-vsl-all_arts-mp3.14541/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Erik (Oct 5, 2017)

http://www.erikotte.nl/temp/DebussyQuartet.mp3 (Herewith my version (only measures 1-25))


----------



## Rob (Oct 5, 2017)

Erik said:


> http://www.erikotte.nl/temp/DebussyQuartet.mp3 (Herewith my version (only measures 1-25))



very good, what library is this Erik?


----------



## ptram (Oct 5, 2017)

This one is Xsample Extended. No articulation change, all Vibrato with volume controlled by modwheel. Reverb is again VSL MIR ORF Funkhaus Studio 3.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/debussy-string-quartet-xailx-mp3.9939/][/AUDIOPLUS]

EDIT: I'm adding a version with articulations applied to all four instruments. But beware: this is Xsample Acoustic Instruments Standard, not Extended. The Extended version has some issues with the new Logic ArtID system.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/debussy-stringquartet-xail-mp3.14707/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Rob (Oct 5, 2017)

ptram said:


> This one is Xsample Extended. No articulation change, all Vibrato with volume controlled by modwheel. Reverb is again VSL MIR ORF Funkhaus Studio 3.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/debussy-string-quartet-xailx-mp3.9930/][/AUDIOPLUS]



I do like it! for my taste panning is a bit extreme, but the tone and instruments behavior is very nice! Thanks ptram!


----------



## Erik (Oct 5, 2017)

This was SWAM again!
I hope to find the time for more versions with other libraries.


----------



## ptram (Oct 6, 2017)

Roberto, I replaced the Xsample file with another exhibiting a narrower stereo field. Maybe this one works a bit better, even if still rough and unmixed.


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Oct 6, 2017)

Saxer said:


> Hi Rob,
> 
> I tried CSSS but it doesn't work at all with the same midi data.
> I think it's absolutely possible to make it sound good (and even better tonewise than SM) but it's a very different workflow.
> I sent you a pm for detail.



Interesting. I recently had to go to another choice for solo violin because CSSS just didn't handle the part well. Didn't sound convincing nor musical. Even LASS first chair sounded better.
You are confirming my suspicion that it isn't as flexible as I was hoping for in the first place.
A good library for sure but not for everything (sounds familiar?)


----------



## amorphosynthesis (Oct 7, 2017)

https://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=13639534

Here's Joshua Bell,Bohemian VIolin and Cello and Intimate Viola
totaly dry and the midi file is as it was downloaded


----------



## Rob (Oct 7, 2017)

amorphosynthesis said:


> https://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=13639534
> 
> Here's Joshua Bell,Bohemian VIolin and Cello and Intimate Viola
> totaly dry and the midi file is as it was downloaded



thanks for doing this! sounds good! of course every library would need its own treatment, but it already sounds very good this way...


----------



## germancomponist (Oct 7, 2017)

Patrick de Caumette said:


> Interesting. I recently had to go to another choice for solo violin because CSSS just didn't handle the part well. Didn't sound convincing nor musical. Even LASS first chair sounded better.
> You are confirming my suspicion that it isn't as flexible as I was hoping for in the first place.
> A good library for sure but not for everything (sounds familiar?)


Hm, I think it is normal when instrument _a_ doesn't work the same as instrument _b_, when using the same midi-data.


----------



## amorphosynthesis (Oct 7, 2017)

Rob said:


> thanks for doing this! sounds good! of course every library would need its own treatment, but it already sounds very good this way...


You're welcome-that is correct.The Joshua along with the others sound magnificent,especially if you don't just assign a midi track to them(as I did)


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Oct 7, 2017)

germancomponist said:


> Hm, I think it is normal when instrument _a_ doesn't work the same as instrument _b_, when using the same midi-data.


I wasn't talking about using the same MIDI file. I did tweak the solo violin MIDI part specifically for CSSS but the result wasn't great. I then used another library and it sounded much better in terms of realism.
This was specific to that part. Other lines in other tunes worked well with CSSS...


----------



## germancomponist (Oct 8, 2017)

Ah, thanks for clarification.


----------



## Przemek K. (Oct 15, 2017)

So, I fiddled a bit around this piece with the Chris Hein Solo Strings and came up with this version. It's only the first 30-31 bars, but I also created 3 different mixes.
One with reverb, one without but with ER's and one completly dry. I do like the part from 23 sec upwards the most in this piece, it was fun to do.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7p6cfe578zn1po0/Debussy mockup final - Przemyslaw Kopczyk.mp3?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7p6cfe578zn1po0/Debussy mockup final - Przemyslaw Kopczyk.mp3?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jfdql9kbdiogjuf/Debussy mockup notail - Przemyslaw Kopczyk.mp3?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/67hvc2e870auzze/Debussy mockup dry - Przemyslaw Kopczyk.mp3?dl=0


----------



## galactic orange (Oct 15, 2017)

Przemek K. said:


> So, I fiddled a bit around this piece



I see what you did... oh, nevermind. I've done searches for the word "fiddle" on this site and you'd be amazed at how many times that word is used in this context. Sorry for the interruption. Carry on, carry on.


----------



## Chris Hein (Oct 17, 2017)

Przemek K. said:


> So, I fiddled a bit around this piece with the Chris Hein Solo Strings and came up with this version. It's only the first 30-31 bars, but I also created 3 different mixes.
> One with reverb, one without but with ER's and one completly dry. I do like the part from 23 sec upwards the most in this piece, it was fun to do.
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/7p6cfe578zn1po0/Debussy mockup final - Przemyslaw Kopczyk.mp3?dl=0
> ...


Hey Przemek,

Sounds great, thanks for doing this.

I think you used the velocity mode, not the x-fade mode. Right?
Sounds much better IMO, because you don't hear any voice doubling.

Chris Hein


----------



## madfloyd (Oct 19, 2017)

The Chris Hein SS library sounds VERY realistic. I have CSSS but I find it sounds very synthetic. Must investigate CHSS!


----------



## Maxfabian (Oct 19, 2017)

Przemek K. said:


> So, I fiddled a bit around this piece with the Chris Hein Solo Strings and came up with this version. It's only the first 30-31 bars, but I also created 3 different mixes.
> One with reverb, one without but with ER's and one completly dry. I do like the part from 23 sec upwards the most in this piece, it was fun to do.
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/7p6cfe578zn1po0/Debussy mockup final - Przemyslaw Kopczyk.mp3?dl=0
> ...



Wow! This sounds great! Especial the final one. Do you find the library is easy to use? I don't like to hustle to much with midi information. 

Cheers


----------



## Rob (Oct 20, 2017)

excellent, Przemek! I really wanted to hear the CH version, thank you for doing it... btw, could it be that you have the viola up an octave there?


----------



## Przemek K. (Oct 20, 2017)

Chris Hein said:


> Hey Przemek,
> 
> Sounds great, thanks for doing this.
> 
> ...



Hi CHris, glad you like it Well yeah, I didn't use the xfade at all. Volume automation was enough to sculpt the dynamics here and there, especially since
the CH Solo Strings have up to 8 vel , so there are already lots of possible choices regarding tone and so on.


----------



## Przemek K. (Oct 20, 2017)

Maxfabian said:


> Wow! This sounds great! Especial the final one. Do you find the library is easy to use? I don't like to hustle to much with midi information.
> 
> Cheers



Thanks for your kind words Well, I do find it easy to use, although there are lots of features which can be great if you want to expand/enhance either your workflow
or musical "midi" performance. You can use them but you don't have to


----------



## Przemek K. (Oct 20, 2017)

Rob said:


> excellent, Przemek! I really wanted to hear the CH version, thank you for doing it... btw, could it be that you have the viola up an octave there?



Hi Rob, glad you like it too It is a very interesting piece you did choose to do a mockup. I had a blast with the it, especially from 24 sec upwards. Kinda love that part. Now to your question regarding the viola. Actually I didn't change the octave of the violas midi part, left it as it was. Who knows, maybe because I went to all the details in this mockup, that I may have accidentally change something in the instruments setup.


----------



## mikeh-375 (Oct 20, 2017)

Przemek,

Great job. What a great thread and forum this is that members who know how to, are prepared to post demos like this and not just Przemek! I am probably going to purchase what is missing from my CH solos having heard this.


----------



## Rob (Oct 20, 2017)

Przemek K. said:


> Hi Rob, glad you like it too It is a very interesting piece you did choose to do a mockup. I had a blast with the it, especially from 24 sec upwards. Kinda love that part. Now to your question regarding the viola. Actually I didn't change the octave of the violas midi part, left it as it was. Who knows, maybe because I went to all the details in this mockup, that I may have accidentally change something in the instruments setup.


yes, it is an interesting piece, and it has the florid melodic variations that really challenge a VI... but that's what I needed to hear, not the usual whole notes legato melodies  thanks again


----------



## Przemek K. (Oct 20, 2017)

Rob said:


> yes, it is an interesting piece, and it has the florid melodic variations that really challenge a VI... but that's what I needed to hear, not the usual whole notes legato melodies  thanks again



exactly my thoughts, this piece exposes strenght's but especially weaknesses of VI's because it's so versatile in so many different ways. And the whole notes legato melodies...well yeah, kinda dull at times


----------



## Przemek K. (Oct 20, 2017)

mikeh-375 said:


> Przemek,
> 
> Great job. What a great thread and forum this is that members who know how to, are prepared to post demos like this and not just Przemek! I am probably going to purchase what is missing from my CH solos having heard this.



Thanks Mike this forum is indeed great and so its members. Posting demo/mockups is sometimes not easy, I do this rarely admittedly. Anyway, glad you like my rendition of this piece, and I think you will be happy getting the rest of CH Solo Strings.


----------



## HardyP (Oct 21, 2017)

Thanks for this great topic!
Here my embertone-rEnDITION: V1 Joshua Bell, V2 Friedlander, Va Fischer, Vc Blakus.
I´m really astonished, since it´s the nearly unaltered MIDI. My changes are:
- deleted Volume+Pan from the MIDI
- seating V1, Va, Vc, V2
- added KS in order to let Blakus do the stops in m. 52-55

Findings:
- stops in JB are strange: I can play the Octave line with my keyboard live, but the MIDI data does not work. Maybe @Embertone can look into this & explain the functionality a bit more? Manual is very tiny on these topics...
- the fast lines measures 22... are too "smeary" to my taste, would be (besides Expression tweaking) my first working field
- Fischer has some "live ambience" in the g->f legato sample ...

Would like to work on that a bit, let´s see how my schedule allows for it... it will be defenitely very educating!

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/debussyquartett-embertonejb-mp3.10049/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Erik (Oct 22, 2017)

Rob said:


> excellent, Przemek! I really wanted to hear the CH version, thank you for doing it... btw, could it be that you have the viola up an octave there?



You're absolutely right Rob, the viola part is an octave too high, it comes higher than the violin 1 sometimes.
@Przemek: do you have maybe the time to upload a correct version? This makes the comparison more relevant.


----------



## Przemek K. (Oct 22, 2017)

Erik said:


> @Przemek: do you have maybe the time to upload a correct version? This makes the comparison more relevant.



Hi Erik,

I'll look into it and make an update as soon as I can.


----------



## Alatar (Oct 23, 2017)

Przemek K. said:


> So, I fiddled a bit around this piece with the Chris Hein Solo Strings and came up with this version. It's only the first 30-31 bars, but I also created 3 different mixes.
> One with reverb, one without but with ER's and one completly dry. I do like the part from 23 sec upwards the most in this piece, it was fun to do.
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/7p6cfe578zn1po0/Debussy mockup final - Przemyslaw Kopczyk.mp3?dl=0
> ...



Now, this is the first version on this whole thread,which actually sounds like a string quartet. Nice!


----------



## Erik (Oct 23, 2017)

Przemek K. said:


> Hi Erik,
> 
> I'll look into it and make an update as soon as I can.


Thanks, great!

http://www.erikotte.nl/temp/DebussyQuartetVSL.mp3 (Herewith a version with the VSL solo strings), that differs quite a lot from the others here.
I'll try to finish a version with the Sacconi strings also this week.


----------



## Przemek K. (Oct 23, 2017)

So, I corrected the viola part and put it one octave down, so now everything should be fine.
Again 3 versions:


with reverb: https://www.dropbox.com/s/h89zei95g0fs9sw/Debussy mockup final 2 - Przemyslaw Kopczyk.mp3?dl=0
with IR's only: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cwfrggryolcrb2y/Debussy mockup notail 2 - Przemyslaw Kopczyk.mp3?dl=0
dry: https://www.dropbox.com/s/t32yp79ahrkmmus/Debussy mockup dry 2 - Przemyslaw Kopczyk.mp3?dl=0


----------



## Rob (Oct 23, 2017)

Przemek K. said:


> So, I corrected the viola part and put it one octave down, so now everything should be fine.
> Again 3 versions:
> 
> 
> ...


Przemek, the uncertainties in the tuning are endemic to the instruments, or is there some kind of pitch randomization? Here and there they seem a bit too pronounced... I'm nitpicking I know


----------



## Przemek K. (Oct 23, 2017)

Rob said:


> Przemek, the uncertainties in the tuning are endemic to the instruments, or is there some kind of pitch randomization? Here and there they seem a bit too pronounced... I'm nitpicking I know



They are on purpose, although I may have push the pitchbend too much Thing is, I use it to detune the instruments to each other to give the whole piece a bit more live. This is probably more obvious in
the new versions since the viola part is one octave below and I didn't readjust the pitchbend cc to make it sound more cohesive if that makes sense


----------



## Erik (Oct 24, 2017)

Przemek K. said:


> So, I corrected the viola part and put it one octave down, so now everything should be fine.


Thanks for doing this! Much better with the viola part correct now. I agree with Rob (again) about serious intonation issues, but also I noticed that the legato bowes (starting from 0:42 aren't that fluent anymore. There seems to be a lack of definition somehow in the fast passages there, in all strings that play the sixteenth notes. Also the intonation issues are rather present I am afraid.
These fluent passages are a killer for many libraries. Sacconi does here 130 voices per instrument so the result is one pop and click festival, while using their _playable _patch.
CSSS was just a disaster for me to get right in this piece, sorry to say, from the first note on. Maybe someone else is able to do the job with CSSS?

Anyway, the timbre of _your _quartet is one of the best here: enough air, mellow where it should be, they blend very well. Very well done btw and therefore so informative, thanks again!

I hope to join later with versions of Sacconi and maybe Bohemian involved (as first violin). It won't be much better than yours, but it will be more for the sake of a full overview in this thread.


----------



## Przemek K. (Oct 25, 2017)

Erik said:


> Thanks for doing this! Much better with the viola part correct now. I agree with Rob (again) about serious intonation issues, but also I noticed that the legato bowes (starting from 0:42 aren't that fluent anymore. There seems to be a lack of definition somehow in the fast passages there, in all strings that play the sixteenth notes. Also the intonation issues are rather present I am afraid.



Glad you like it. Regarding the intonation, as mentioned before, I did not readjust the viola part after I corrected it one octave down. The same goes for the part from 0:42. I would need to re-tweak it again so the legato bows are more fluent. This part was more difficult anyway

You are right that such passages are killer for many libs out there.
I'm very curious to listen to a version with CSSS and Sacconi as well.

I also listened to HardyP's version done with embertone and yours with VSL.
I do like how they sound. Obviously they would need to be tweaked heavily, because this piece is quite demanding.


----------



## Erik (Oct 29, 2017)

Hi,
As promised herewith two versions with the Sacconi-Quartet (Spitfire). I used the _playable _patches in both tracks. It was quite hard to get things right, in the fast scales voice count was over 130 per instrument so I had to bounce the four parts individually.
So there is one with http://www.erikotte.nl/temp/DebussyQuartetSacconi.mp3 (exclusively Sacconi).
I also made a version with the http://www.erikotte.nl/temp/DebussyQuartetSacconiBohemianVl1.mp3 (Bohemian as first violin). With both tracks I am not particularly happy (given the time I needed), maybe someone else can do a better job with these strings. Please know that I am offering these versions moreover for the sake of comparison.


----------



## Rob (Oct 29, 2017)

thank you Erik, the Sacconi isn't bad at all... just a bit too reverberated for my taste, but I guess that's the embedded ambience in the library. I also like very much the tone and articulation of the Bohemian violin, though it seems to miss a couple notes in the fast turns, like from 0:10 to 0:18 for example...
So, my conclusions so far: Swam easiest to get a performance with, the tone slightly nasal and artificial, bow noise especially needs work. Chris Hein good performance and possibilities of sculpting phrasing, the tone is a bit artificial but good overall. Same goes for Embertone. CSSS good but not ready for demanding quartet writing. Sacconi good but legato isn't perfect and the sound of the hall is too present. all in all I think my favourite is VSL, clean sounding though the violin in certain ranges tends to be somewhat harsh... but for classical writing it sounds the best to me.
I've too done a take with vsl (se unfortunately) that, given the limitations of the se version, is not bad...


[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/debussyqtet-vslse-mp3.10132/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Erik (Oct 29, 2017)

Rob said:


> ...all in all I think my favourite is VSL, clean sounding though the violin in certain ranges tends to be somewhat harsh... but for classical writing it sounds the best to me.
> I've too done a take with vsl (se unfortunately) that, given the limitations of the se version, is not bad...
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/debussyqtet-vslse-mp3.10132/][/AUDIOPLUS]


I agree. Even with this SE-library you did (again) a wonderful job!


----------



## Vardaro (Nov 3, 2017)

Fantastic, Rob. Very different from the other vsl renderings: very realistic tone and phrasing (I play and listen to a lot of quartets). Good attacks, neither sharp nor squelchy. Did it require a lot of tweaking?

I was very pleasantly surprised by the Swam versions - except the viola. I shall defer buying their violin & cello until I can get the viola to sound (a) like my own, (b) better played!

Vsl vs Chris Hein vs Embertone vs Xsamples? Phrasing aside, all have a good tone (even the violas!) but seem to want different "staging". We players expect the "under the ear sound" of dry, close miking, but the listener wants a little distance.


----------



## khollister (Nov 19, 2017)

The CH versions are, IMHO, far nicer in tone/timbre than the others. I was really surprised at the tone of the Sacconi - very nasal and unpleasant to my ear. While the tone of the JB violin and Blakus cello in theEmbertone version are quite nice, the V2 & Vla instruments seems to have a rather forward and muddy character. 

I'm now rethinking the Embertone stuff other than JB. It is unfortunate the CH library is $600. To me, the clear winner here.


----------



## CT (Nov 19, 2017)

Rob said:


> thank you Erik, the Sacconi isn't bad at all... just a bit too reverberated for my taste, but I guess that's the embedded ambience in the library. I also like very much the tone and articulation of the Bohemian violin, though it seems to miss a couple notes in the fast turns, like from 0:10 to 0:18 for example...
> So, my conclusions so far: Swam easiest to get a performance with, the tone slightly nasal and artificial, bow noise especially needs work. Chris Hein good performance and possibilities of sculpting phrasing, the tone is a bit artificial but good overall. Same goes for Embertone. CSSS good but not ready for demanding quartet writing. Sacconi good but legato isn't perfect and the sound of the hall is too present. all in all I think my favourite is VSL, clean sounding though the violin in certain ranges tends to be somewhat harsh... but for classical writing it sounds the best to me.
> I've too done a take with vsl (se unfortunately) that, given the limitations of the se version, is not bad...
> 
> ...



I also did a really, really rough pass with the VSL SE soloists, using only sustain and legato patches. I also "re-breathed" in the dynamics to better fit how I have everything set up to play. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2a8dv5wegnddcnu/debquart.wav?dl=0

Tonally, not so bad, maybe? With proper articulation choices, and actually playing the parts/controlling dynamics at the same time, I think it might even be fairly decent.


----------



## EuropaWill (Dec 13, 2017)

What a great thread!! Wish I would have stumbled across this earlier. My impressions are VSL, Xsample Ext, and Chris Hein are all impressive for different reasons. VSL (even the SE version) sounds clean, Xsample sound a bit more like an older recording and had a few rough edges but I wonder if those could be ironed out with some midi editing/mixing and Przemek's CH's example is the best by far, leaving me to be even more impressed with the library. 

A lot is being said about the library's and not enough about the skills of the musician's mocking them up. Przemek really understands this piece and how to make a mockup sound like real players interplay with each other! I did like the intonation errors he intentionally put in to his reverb examples (but thought they were too obvious in the drier versions) and believe they add to the realism when using a good reverb. The only thing that I felt was lacking with the CH example was a sense the tone felt a bit processed or slightly muddy and I dont mean with reverb, but just the overall sound seems to be behind a veil, maybe some EQ could fix this. I would love to hear the Xsample library with Przemek's expression, midi editing and mixing! I was a bit shocked that Sacconi sounded as unrealistic as it did, and SWAM sounds like a synthesizer and not real string instruments to my ears but I can appreciate the expressiveness it provides which the others except for Przemek's example lacked. So my favorite was the Przemek's CH example, followed by Rob's VSL SE, then ptram's Xsample.


----------



## Casiquire (Dec 15, 2017)

The VSL one sounds decent but so sterile. I think what makes the Chris Hein version stand out is that the samples have just a little bit of character baked in. And of course the mockup was beautifully done.

As for the quick runs, did you use any noteheads? Might give it a bit more clarity. Otherwise I can't find fault with almost anything about it


----------



## Przemek K. (Dec 17, 2017)

@ EuropaWill: what a nice compliment. Thank you very much. It's appreciated.

And also Casiquire, thank you.

Glad you both could enjoy it


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Dec 18, 2017)

Erik said:


> Thanks, great!
> 
> http://www.erikotte.nl/temp/DebussyQuartetVSL.mp3 (Herewith a version with the VSL solo strings), that differs quite a lot from the others here.
> I'll try to finish a version with the Sacconi strings also this week.



Wow, lots of good versions in this thread, but this one is by far my favorite. I know it's been over a month since you posted this, but please can you share your spatialization setup? Did you use MIR Pro? If so, what venue?


----------



## Rob (Dec 18, 2017)

Casiquire said:


> The VSL one sounds decent but so sterile. I think what makes the Chris Hein version stand out is that the samples have just a little bit of character baked in. And of course the mockup was beautifully done.
> 
> As for the quick runs, did you use any noteheads? Might give it a bit more clarity. Otherwise I can't find fault with almost anything about it



well, you might call sterile what I deem good taste... to me my vsl example is very expressive, in a subdued way, and I much prefer it to the supercharged, on-steroids ch version... to each his own, but as the originator of the thread I have the last word


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Dec 18, 2017)

Rob said:


> thank you Erik, the Sacconi isn't bad at all... just a bit too reverberated for my taste, but I guess that's the embedded ambience in the library. I also like very much the tone and articulation of the Bohemian violin, though it seems to miss a couple notes in the fast turns, like from 0:10 to 0:18 for example...
> So, my conclusions so far: Swam easiest to get a performance with, the tone slightly nasal and artificial, bow noise especially needs work. Chris Hein good performance and possibilities of sculpting phrasing, the tone is a bit artificial but good overall. Same goes for Embertone. CSSS good but not ready for demanding quartet writing. Sacconi good but legato isn't perfect and the sound of the hall is too present. all in all I think my favourite is VSL, clean sounding though the violin in certain ranges tends to be somewhat harsh... but for classical writing it sounds the best to me.
> I've too done a take with vsl (se unfortunately) that, given the limitations of the se version, is not bad...
> 
> ...



Extremely well done. I wish you had the full library, so we could hear your version with all the articulations and dynamic layers. How did you handle spatialization?


----------



## Rob (Dec 18, 2017)

if memory serves me well there was just a touch of lexicon hall in there...


----------



## robgb (Dec 18, 2017)

rottoy said:


> But I can't abide the nasal tone.


Some simple exploratory EQ can probably fix that. Plus the SWAM version needs a little more air around it. I actually compared it to this, and don't find the instruments that much more nasally than these:


----------



## Casiquire (Dec 18, 2017)

Rob said:


> well, you might call sterile what I deem good taste... to me my vsl example is very expressive, in a subdued way, and I much prefer it to the supercharged, on-steroids ch version... to each his own, but as the originator of the thread I have the last word



I hear you, and like anything there's a time and a place. The benefit of CH is that there are also straight tone patches that are clean sounding, so you get the best of both worlds.


----------



## EuropaWill (Dec 30, 2017)

EuropaWill said:


> What a great thread!! Wish I would have stumbled across this earlier. My impressions are VSL, Xsample Ext, and Chris Hein are all impressive for different reasons. VSL (even the SE version) sounds clean, Xsample sound a bit more like an older recording and had a few rough edges but I wonder if those could be ironed out with some midi editing/mixing and Przemek's CH's example is the best by far, leaving me to be even more impressed with the library.
> ... *I was a bit shocked that Sacconi sounded as unrealistic as it did*, and SWAM sounds like a synthesizer and not real string instruments to my ears but I can appreciate the expressiveness it provides which the others except for Przemek's example lacked. So my favorite was the Przemek's CH example, followed by Rob's VSL SE, then ptram's Xsample.



I have to admit, that despite what I wrote above about the Sacconi example, this thread along with the timing of the wishlist 40% off discount I got from Spitfire created the perfect storm for me to eat a little bit of crow.  I went ahead and bought the Spitfire Sacconi String Quartet yesterday!! Sometimes the almighty discount is the great equalizer when considering various libraries. I'm really excited to get to know it and integrate it into my setup.


----------



## ptram (Jul 25, 2018)

An update: In the first page of this thread I added my VSL version with all the needed articulations.

Paolo


----------



## pipedr (Jul 26, 2018)

Rob said:


> thank you Erik, the Sacconi isn't bad at all... just a bit too reverberated for my taste, but I guess that's the embedded ambience in the library. I also like very much the tone and articulation of the Bohemian violin, though it seems to miss a couple notes in the fast turns, like from 0:10 to 0:18 for example...
> So, my conclusions so far: Swam easiest to get a performance with, the tone slightly nasal and artificial, bow noise especially needs work. Chris Hein good performance and possibilities of sculpting phrasing, the tone is a bit artificial but good overall. Same goes for Embertone. CSSS good but not ready for demanding quartet writing. Sacconi good but legato isn't perfect and the sound of the hall is too present. all in all I think my favourite is VSL, clean sounding though the violin in certain ranges tends to be somewhat harsh... but for classical writing it sounds the best to me.
> I've too done a take with vsl (se unfortunately) that, given the limitations of the se version, is not bad...
> 
> ...



This sounds tremendous using just VSL SE. I also have SE--Would you mind sharing this midi file so that I could learn from it?


----------



## Rob (Jul 26, 2018)

pipedr said:


> This sounds tremendous using just VSL SE. I also have SE--Would you mind sharing this midi file so that I could learn from it?


I hope I still have the midi, tomorrow I'll look for it... if you are on cubase maybe I can share the project


----------



## richhickey (Jul 26, 2018)

Rob said:


> I hope I still have the midi, tomorrow I'll look for it... if you are on cubase maybe I can share the project



That would be fantastic!


----------



## pipedr (Jul 26, 2018)

Rob said:


> I hope I still have the midi, tomorrow I'll look for it... if you are on cubase maybe I can share the project



I can open up a Cubase project. Thanks!


----------



## Rob (Jul 27, 2018)

ok, found it, here it is, Cubase7.5, vsl instruments pro:


----------



## richhickey (Jul 27, 2018)

Rob said:


> ok, found it, here it is, Cubase7.5:



Thanks! That's quite generous of you.


----------



## pipedr (Jul 27, 2018)

Rob said:


> ok, found it, here it is, Cubase7.5:


Awesome! Thanks so much for sharing!


----------



## LamaRose (Jul 27, 2018)

Przemek K. said:


> So, I fiddled a bit around this piece with the Chris Hein Solo Strings and came up with this version. It's only the first 30-31 bars, but I also created 3 different mixes.
> One with reverb, one without but with ER's and one completly dry. I do like the part from 23 sec upwards the most in this piece, it was fun to do.
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/7p6cfe578zn1po0/Debussy mockup final - Przemyslaw Kopczyk.mp3?dl=0
> ...



Really love the dry version... sounds like a cleaned-up recording straight out of the 1930's!


----------



## Erik (Jul 30, 2018)

Please allow me to post this Ravel fragment also in this specific _quartet _thread. Made with SWAM. Feedback is more than welcome.


----------



## Loïc D (Jul 30, 2018)

Did anyone tried already with OT Berlin 1st chair ?
I may try if I have some spare time...


----------



## Rob (Jul 30, 2018)

Erik said:


> Please allow me to post this Ravel fragment also in this specific _quartet _thread. Made with SWAM. Feedback is more than welcome.



nice performance... still I'm not sure of the timbre, it has a slight metallic edge that prevents the sound to be really sweet.


----------



## robgb (Jul 30, 2018)

Erik said:


> Please allow me to post this Ravel fragment also in this specific _quartet _thread. Made with SWAM. Feedback is more than welcome.



Nice. And I'm not hearing any metallic edge. If I didn't know it was SWAM, I'd certainly be asking what library this is, because I'd want to buy it.


----------



## Farkle (Jul 30, 2018)

robgb said:


> Nice. And I'm not hearing any metallic edge. If I didn't know it was SWAM, I'd certainly be asking what library this is, because I'd want to buy it.



I am also hearing a metallic edge, and I bet it's because the vibrato is almost non existent, which probably allows the sharper frequencies of the strings to build up. If you compare to this studio recording:



You can hear both the more pronounced, musical vibrato, and also, the softer, silkier tone.

Let me also say that this is a really impressive mockup, just because it doesn't quite hit that realism, doesn't detract at all from how well executed it is. Hell of a lot better than what I could have done...

Mike


----------



## Erik (Jul 30, 2018)

Thank you all for your kind words. I guess the EQ-issues are on my behalf (my old ears maybe?), so I'll post a second version asap. The vibrato however was a personal choice, I hope you don't mind I'll leave it like this for the moment: SWAM can sound ridiculous with a slightly overdone vibrato, at least in my hands....


----------



## Erik (Jul 30, 2018)

@Farkle, I thought why not give a try, some more vibrato (not the vibrato rate btw!). In the context it works definitely better, thanks for your remark about this.
Furthermore, (hopefully) improved EQ-settings, less extreme dynamic settings, EZQ (Toneboosters) more neutral.

Anyway, starting from what I had, this wasn't much of an effort, so I someone has more suggestions, just let me know...


----------



## Casiquire (Jul 30, 2018)

Erik said:


> @Farkle, I thought why not give a try, some more vibrato (not the vibrato rate btw!). In the context it works definitely better, thanks for your remark about this.
> Furthermore, (hopefully) improved EQ-settings, less extreme dynamic settings, EZQ (Toneboosters) more neutral.
> 
> Anyway, starting from what I had, this wasn't much of an effort, so I someone has more suggestions, just let me know...




This is certainly sweeter and I would say more realistic, if only because increased vibrato helps trick your ear into thinking "more expressive". You seem to have a good sense for string performances.


----------



## ptram (Aug 6, 2018)

Another update: In the first page of this thread I added my Xsample (Standard) version with all the needed articulations.

Paolo


----------



## thobj (Dec 26, 2018)

I was not sure if or with which string library I should go, so: thanks for that thread; here is my version with KF strings. Surely there is still a lot to do and maybe I did not always use the correct articulations, but for a first impression ...

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/debussykf-mp3.17425/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Mr. Ha (Dec 26, 2018)

Has anyone used the spitfire solo strings for quartet writing? I’m concidering buying it with the wish list discount.


----------



## mventura (Dec 26, 2018)

Mr. Ha said:


> Has anyone used the spitfire solo strings for quartet writing? I’m concidering buying it with the wish list discount.



+1
And would love to hear JB violin vs new spitfire performance violin.


----------



## ptram (Dec 26, 2018)

thobj said:


> here is my version with KF strings


Is this Kontakt Factory? Surprisingly good! May you try will a smaller room reverb?

Paolo


----------



## madfloyd (Dec 26, 2018)

thobj said:


> I was not sure if or with which string library I should go, so: thanks for that thread; here is my version with KF strings. Surely there is still a lot to do and maybe I did not always use the correct articulations, but for a first impression ...
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/debussykf-mp3.17425/][/AUDIOPLUS]



OMG, my favorite string quartet of all time - and it sounds fantastic! Did you mock this up yourself or is the midi available somewhere?


----------



## Casiquire (Dec 26, 2018)

Stupid question, what's KF?


----------



## Rey (Dec 26, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> Stupid question, what's KF?


Kontakt factory?


----------



## madfloyd (Dec 26, 2018)

Kentucky Fried.


----------



## thobj (Dec 26, 2018)

sorry I'm not quite familiar with quoting function yet:

These are solo patches from Kontakt Factory; I used the midi file from Rob in the first post of this thread and tweaked it.

I am not really satisfied with the reverb, too; I followed the example of Rob and some recordings, but I have not yet found the right balance and the warmth of the room.


----------



## Mr. Ha (Dec 26, 2018)




----------



## ptram (Jul 20, 2019)

I did a new rendering of Roberto's Debussy. This time with VSL's Solo Strings again (including Violin 2), but with my new more responsive presets.

Debussy String Quartet VSL

Paolo


----------



## mrutkowski (Aug 31, 2019)

Super interesting benchmark thread been waiting for something like this for ages!
Thanks OP for the midi data and here's a super quick 5-min take using CSSS True Legato close mics only and Spitfire Sacconi Playable close mics only (possibly a duplicate)
Both dry/no EQ/no keyswitches
I scaled cc curves to better fit the libraries used as by default they didn't sound convincing.
In this test I liked Sacconi better but as with other Spitfire strings they're quite wet, also getting legato and repeated strokes to sound smooth is a constant struggle for me (any tips?)
I liked both CH and VSL tests better than mine, I wonder how much time you guys spent tweaking them 
Michal


----------

