# Before you create your next track which sounds like Hans Zimmer, just know this:



## AlexandreSafi (Oct 4, 2014)

*In Medieval era (1100-1425)* we had: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... 7df59e.png
*In Renaissance era (1400-1610)*, we had: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... b56027.png
*In Baroque era (1600-1760)*, we had: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... e34c48.png
*In Classical era (1735-1825)*: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... 6c1e7f.png
*In Romantic era (1815-1850-1950)*: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... e15ab1.png & http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... 729890.png
*In the 20th century (1880-2010)*, we had: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... de0865.png


*In the pre-60's, 60's- 70's & 80s*, we had the contribution from A. North, C. Chaplin, Steiner, Mancini, the Bernsteins, Barry, Waxman, Korngold, Rósza, M. Jarre, Herrmann, N. Rota, Lalo Schifrin, G. Moroder, B. Conti, B. Poledouris, A. Courage, G. Delerue, S. Myers, Morricone, Goldsmith, Williams, Vangelis then *pushing towards the 90's and a bit further* you could add to the list Horner, Elfman, Goldenthal, Joel Goldsmith, E. Serra, Trevor Jones, Newton-Howard, the Newmans, P. Glass, A. Badalamenti, G. Yared, Joel McNeely, M. Kamen, D. Arnold, A. Menken, Silvestri, D. Marianelli, J. Debney, R. Portman, G. Fenton, P. Doyle, Joe Hisaishi, H. Shore, Gregson-Williams, Powell, Beltrami, M. Isham, Giacchino and H. Zimmer. *Fast-forward it into the 00's-10s*, you can add D. Davis, A. Desplat, Brian Tyler, A. Iglesias, G. Santaolalla, C. Armstrong, Ch. Clouser, C. Mansell, C. Martinez, C. Burwell, C. Young, K. Badelt, J. Ottman, G. Revell, N. Hooper, T. Rabin, J.A.P. Kaczmarek and Mychael Danna.... *And recently*, you can also add A. Rahman, L. Bource, T. Morris, H. Jackman, R. Djawadi, S. Jablsonsky, L. Balfe, TJ Bergersen & Junkie XL... In your memory, the guys hard at work right now are probably going to be mainly Horner, J. N-H, Elfman, Desplat, T. Newman, B. Tyler and Hans Zimmer...

Within film music, i can only see *two *composers who have undeniably defined a whole generation of what orchestral music sounds like, and you all know who they are of course...

BUT...

Now if you take this big beautiful history of composers, you get a BIG numerical number... and you now take the last, most talented guys really working in Hollywood right now, you suddenly don't get such a big one. Just realize you might be equating this small number and thinking of them as the alpha-dogs, but it really isn't the big picture here. And if you are, then you are not wrong, but you might also probably be a victim of a society which continuously values the idea of the hero, the fallen idols, the people in power, and the dark side of money, instead of the community, which is the reason for heroes in the first place... Being able to only point a *"decreasing"* few artists isn't a sign of Glory or simply a testimony of just how talented, sometimes "god-like", these guys are or of how talent is just rare throughout history... They are, more than ever, simply the last dying breed of an art-form which has managed to brilliantly merge with pop culture, and brought people to an idea of the value of greatness and craft between different artists aiming their emotions in one direction, but it is one art-form which, sadly, is still bound to gently wave its goodbye hand, and breathe its last breath, sooner than later, if all you young guys out there do not strive hard enough to look inside of yourselves and figure out who YOU are, who you are NOT, and who you are not YET. Even and especially if you're already a professional, just know that each time you imitate, you either make it a study to develop and shed some light on who you are and who you love, while also actually helping yourself define what your unique voice is and what uniquely separates you from who you love, consider this as a fact of human nature and growth, like a kid where "imitation leads to innovation"... OR... you either spread an accelerated death around like a plague, where "imitation kills innovation", and you actually create harm to the people (dead or alive) you supposedly admire, and harm to the people and future generations of kids and grandparents who want nothing more than to be moved by beautiful things and art around them, that of course happening because of your actions even as you're also already dead, until the inevitable law of oblivion, and then of nothingness in this earth and in this universe happens, but that's of course all depending on your choice, it's not just about YOUR life, and it actually never is entirely your own...
We all decide what kind of life experience we want to create for ourselves and others, as we live and as we die...

To quote "Cloud Atlas": *“Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others, past and present, and by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future.” *

Free will...
I wish you the best and greatest success to you all,
:D


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## dgburns (Oct 4, 2014)

You're a beautiful man for writing this Alexandre,but DAMN you have too much time on your hands 8)


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## Stephen Rees (Oct 4, 2014)

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... t=#3796049

Just sayin.


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## JohnG (Oct 4, 2014)

nice, Alexandre


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## Peter Alexander (Oct 4, 2014)

> Within film music, i can only see two composers who have undeniably defined a whole generation of what orchestral music sounds like, and you all know who they are of course...



Maybe for your age, but not for the entire history of film music. The foundation of film music was launched by those European composers fleeing the Nazis who came to LA. Within each 20 year generation there has been 2-3 composers who stood out. There's an excellent book by Tony Thomas on film composers that lays this out.


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## AC986 (Oct 5, 2014)

Peter Alexander @ Sat Oct 04 said:


> > Within film music, i can only see two composers who have undeniably defined a whole generation of what orchestral music sounds like, and you all know who they are of course...
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe for your age, but not for the entire history of film music. The foundation of film music was launched by those European composers fleeing the Nazis who came to LA. Within each 20 year generation there has been 2-3 composers who stood out. There's an excellent book by Tony Thomas on film composers that lays this out.



Yes indeed. As Korngold later put it, 'Robin Hood saved my life.'


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## AlexandreSafi (Oct 5, 2014)

Peter Alexander @ Sun Oct 05 said:


> > Within film music, i can only see two composers who have undeniably defined a whole generation of what orchestral music sounds like, and you all know who they are of course...
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe for your age, but not for the entire history of film music. There's an excellent book by Tony Thomas on film composers that lays this out.


 I understand and thank you sir, will do check this one out!


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## AC986 (Oct 5, 2014)

Alex

I'm glad to see you put in C. Young. :lol: :lol: 

Christopher Young is one the very greatest and underrated film composers of all time. OF ALL TIME. I share his birthday, only I look younger. :D 

Listen to this. It's utterly fantastic. One of the best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyPM-szOEzE


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## midfi (Oct 5, 2014)

I only have a wiki-level knowledge of classical/ film composing history, so don't listen to me ... but I always thought the success of people like Hans Zimmer was largely due to their talent in adapting to new technology (and pushing it forward).

In simple terms they are the loudest and most attention grabbing composers out there. In even more simple terms, BWWWAAAAAAAAA! (sorry to Hans who I know reads this forum... but then again, he started it!)

New digital technology has recently allowed for massive 10000000 track, full surround, sub-y film music and composers like Zimmer have filled those big boots better than anyone else (and BEFORE anybody else) hence their well deserved success.

The same is true of CGI. Innovative and groundbreaking use of CGI = guaranteed success because this is still new and developing technology. 

In the next few decades, new technology will allow for more evolution of media and whoever can fill those boots will become the successes of that era too.

We can't _un-invent_ the modern loud surround cinema/ home cinema experience just as we couldn't _un-invent_ the modern symphonic orchestra which was louder and more BWAAAAAAA than the mediaeval instruments which they replaced.

I don't think Hans (et al) are the final word in modern 'digitally enabled' orchestral / hybrid film music..... they are supposed to be the _first word_. I'm sure Hans would agree.

Those who attempt to mimic today's current innovators are (by definition) not being innovators! Is that the point of the original post? If so I agree


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## mverta (Oct 5, 2014)

String ostinato beds are the new piano-key-neckties of music. They seem real cool at the time; super-dated parody-fodder later.


_Mike


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## Greg (Oct 5, 2014)

"I don't think Hans (et al) are the final word in modern 'digitally enabled' orchestral / hybrid film music..... they are supposed to be the first word. I'm sure Hans would agree." 

Plenty of us younger composers aspire to dethrone him  sorry Hans!

Joking aside, emulating your idols is just an early phase of not knowing what the fck you're doing. The composers that aspire for more than that and have the burning desire in their hearts to write scores that effect people as much as the prodigies of yesterday, they eventually rise up and give us a new era of film music. 

Now hopefully Hollywood gets their shit together and starts making movies with a STORY so the next generation has a chance. I would argue that this is the problem with film music today... yanno, the lack of good films???


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## Musicologo (Oct 5, 2014)

That's why I keep being relativist...
I've wrote about this again and again... in Vienna alone there were more than 2000 registered composers in the time of Mozart. Your huge lists are NOTHING compared to what reality was by then.

And are a tiny tiny fraction of what reality is now... I'm really sorry if you only see 2 influential composers in the XX century... from the thousands and thousands of composers that populated the XX century each one has for sure some thing to say and some unique history and trace... perpahs the information is just hidden or not so readily available or in your face for there to see...

If I look at Portugal alone, which is a tiny European country, I have more than a thousand old folios of sheet music from the 1850-1930 and each one of them tells me a very interesting story and a quirky detail. Those composers? Noone ever heard of them, not even here in Portugal....

What you decide to do with the information you retrieve from the world is up to you, but sometimes is useful to not create "Gods" or think they were the first and only ones to do something...


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## AlexandreSafi (Oct 5, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Sat Oct 04 said:


> http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3796049&highlight=#3796049
> 
> Just sayin.



With all of my pretentious lectures, you make a fair point Stephen! First of all why don't you check out my youtube channel to see how "low" the rabbit hole of my musical past goes... Here's a clarification, which helps me think where i stand with my own bad-self...I made this track back when all i could think of was: "if only i can sound like him, if i can learn to think like him, and talk musically about superheroes, then i can get people to listen to me, to understand a language they understand, and to see what it might feel to be popular even if it's just for a little while". First it was to test myself and please people, it became a revelation of what it was like to have people massively & genuinely liking what you offered them... Now, i realize how FAR from even great this track was structurally, but it was enough at the time... Then what happens is, you either fall into the trap of just wanting more of that massive recognition -- like Hans said once about Lion King & that Oscar thing -- or you either realize that in any case you still haven't really earned it, because he had to EARN it, earning it in a time when nobody knew nor cared about the sound he would give all of us... And then i thought, well wouldn't this apply to me and all of us future young idealist composers, as it was for him when he started in London. I realized the only problem that would stand in my way is impatience (don't we all have it especially when young?), where my own devil ego would make me rush into things, the easy tricks and money, instead of making a genuine long-term study out of artists. In many eras of human experience, I think this is truly fascinating, both beautiful & sad, while not such a surprise that people are inspired by the EPIC, the BIG, the knights and the superheroes, in comics, in movies and music... Because in all those eras, only a small minority truly dared speaking their minds and speak the truth, but those people, all of your heroes, genuinely want the same for all of you in your own shared lives. Hans Zimmer, without having ever spoken to him in this empty void, certainly genuinely wants that for me, you, us... And we all need to really respect him and his legacy for that, if not for him, at least for ourselves... I think we identify so much with this superlative world of heroes & fame & blockbusters, i certainly do, because they actually show us an idea, like Star Wars up until Man of Steel, which is so philosophically basic, simple and accessible, one that we only wish we could represent, but most of the time we don't, which is to "be, love & think for yourself, for yourself & others's sake"... I don't know my sound yet, i don't panic because i know it's inside here, somewhere, and i think the key to success for young composers is to work carefully on melody, which is acknowledging the value of pop music. / Great disciplined learning in orchestration & craft in electronics... 

We need to find and acknowledge where we are at musically, and combine that with our own unique likes unapologetically, and i can probably guarantee that a lot of our taste go past the likes of Hans Zimmer, even though there still absolutely should never be a discrimination and i would actually encourage people to be including him, but it's still up to us to find new ways to connect already established musical environments between past & present and make people realize of the beauty and the potential of things they initially wouldn't connect with musically, and for that, you need learn to control your ego and impatience of showing yourself out there, as i struggle with everyday...

Thanks for pointing this one out Stephen by the way!


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## AlexandreSafi (Oct 5, 2014)

adriancook @ Sun Oct 05 said:


> Alex
> 
> I'm glad to see you put in C. Young. :lol: :lol:
> 
> ...



Thank you so much for this track Adrian! I replayed it already more than 5 times today... It's lovely and it's in my checklist now! :D 
Reminds me of something Gabriel Yared once said: _"Consciouness in every bar of music you write..."_


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## Stephen Rees (Oct 5, 2014)

AlexandreSafi @ Sun Oct 05 said:


> Thanks for pointing this one out Stephen by the way!


I wasn't so much pointing that out as I was just being cheeky. For which I apologise


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## gbar (Oct 5, 2014)

I don't care what you choose to do, to be even moderately successful at whatever it is usually requires four things:

1. Hard work/discipline
2. Persistence
3. Opportunity
4. Good Luck.

The last two items are just as important as any talent you develop. If you ever wonder why so many talented people seem humble about their work, it is probably because they know they could have worked harder and have become more talented, and nothing they did would have helped without a few lucky breaks.

On the other hand, you can't usually capitalize on what you haven't got if you haven't done the work.


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## germancomponist (Oct 5, 2014)

mverta @ Sun Oct 05 said:


> String ostinato beds are the new piano-key-neckties of music. They seem real cool at the time; super-dated parody-fodder later.
> 
> 
> _Mike



+1

o/~


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## Jaap (Oct 5, 2014)

Nice post Alexandre!

For me a portfolio from composers like Hans Zimmer and John Williams may look like the Chinese Wall. Massive, grand and impressive, almost beyond reach. But when you look closer you realise that even the Chinese Wall was made brick by brick and that each brick is impressive already by itself. To create, move and place those gigantic bricks is a tremendous amount of labor and that is what the works of the big composers are as well.
Each and every piece they had to work for very hard. Maybe at a certain point in their carreers they had the advantage of getting a job a bit easier then 99% of us here, but nonetheless they delivered something we hardly are able to and they do it time after time.

That is what makes it even more impressive for me and such can only be an inspiration, not only as composer, but also as human being to see what dedication, intelligence and hard work can accomplish in life.


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## AlexandreSafi (Oct 5, 2014)

mverta @ Sun Oct 05 said:


> String ostinato beds are the new piano-key-neckties of music. They seem real cool at the time; super-dated parody-fodder later.
> 
> 
> _Mike



Here's another one which you must have heard a dozen times, and well i can't seem to make a damn one myself, especially not of your level :D : “Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months.” — Oscar Wilde


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## AlexandreSafi (Oct 5, 2014)

Jaap @ Sun Oct 05 said:


> Nice post Alexandre!
> 
> For me a portfolio from composers like Hans Zimmer and John Williams may look like the Chinese Wall. Massive, grand and impressive, almost beyond reach. But when you look closer you realise that even the Chinese Wall was made brick by brick and that each brick is impressive already by itself. To create, move and place those gigantic bricks is a tremendous amount of labor and that is what the works of the big composers are as well.
> Each and every piece they had to work for very hard. Maybe at a certain point in their carreers they had the advantage of getting a job a bit easier then 99% of us here, but nonetheless they delivered something we hardly are able to and they do it time after time.
> ...



I enjoyed reading your post Jaap! Thanks!


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## Neifion (Oct 5, 2014)

mverta @ Sun Oct 05 said:


> String ostinato beds are the new piano-key-neckties of music. They seem real cool at the time; super-dated parody-fodder later.
> 
> 
> _Mike



They're not parody-fodder already? :D


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## Peter Alexander (Oct 5, 2014)

Mr. Safi - have you considered paragraphing more?


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## Peter Alexander (Oct 5, 2014)

gbar @ Sun Oct 05 said:


> I don't care what you choose to do, to be even moderately successful at whatever it is usually requires four things:
> 
> 1. Hard work/discipline
> 2. Persistence
> ...



5. And being easy/fun to work with.


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## David Story (Oct 5, 2014)

Who will be popular?
Who will be remembered?

The greatest mistake successful people make is to delude themselves that THEY are the reason they are successful.

The public decides based on unquantifiable factors. 

Popular, innovative, successful, longevity are all in a state of flux.

What was the number one box office hit 50 years ago? (Mary Poppins)
40 years ago? (The Towering Inferno)

Two very different films, both smash hits. One is seen often today, a timeless fantasy.
The other was even more successful, initially. But it's now seen rarely.

They both have scores by popular, widely remembered artists. Poppins is probably the greatest score from the Sherman brothers. Inferno is a lesser work by Williams.

The score we remember from 74 is Chinatown. A modest hit.

Chiptune was never very popular, yet it's highly influential. 

If you're doing work for hire you will usually have to imitate other peoples style. Sometimes even your own earlier work. But put your effort into doing what really helps the game or show come to life. 

The way to do THAT is study every composer and songwriter you can. Then develop a good relationship with your collaborators so you're all making the same story.

(Thanks for the lists Alexandre!)


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## AC986 (Oct 6, 2014)

Based on the title of this thread, what I would say is, especially to younger people starting out is, don't worry about people in this field that are very well known. Forget all of that. Don't worry about whether people are better than you, or you perceive them as better than you. Forget all of that too.

If you go around talking about what other people do all the time, you will never do anything that has your own style stamped on it. There's nothing worse than getting involved in anything where all you do is worry about other people and what they're doing.


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## gbar (Oct 6, 2014)

Peter Alexander @ Sun Oct 05 said:


> gbar @ Sun Oct 05 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't care what you choose to do, to be even moderately successful at whatever it is usually requires four things:
> ...



Oh, yeah  Nobody wants to work with a narcissistic/borderline/sociopath or any other flavor of drama queen after a short while  Being an ass hurts everybody on a project and makes everybody less productive. Best to get along with people


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## markstyles (Nov 5, 2014)

I was watching some films and Tv shows from the 70's and 80's. There were fewer composers and no music libraries.. For the most part, I loved what was created.. 

When I listen to the vast majority of stuff being out today.. (tv, low budget movies), it's obvious there is a trend, and others copy it, hoping to get on the band wagon.. Just like the script writing, and production of scenes.. This stuff is prefab, and leaves me longing for more real quality. 

In fact the most of the whole music scene in general is not very appealing to me. Of course this is what's popular for now,, and eventually it will change or mutate again.. 

I think the key is to have a basic understanding of different genres, composers, styles, etc.. And know when to borrow from what, and when to through some of the rules out the window.. 

I loved when the internet got real popular.. And you could discover the amazing music coming from countries, you never knew existed.
Some South Afican's take on rap, hip-hop and jazz thrown together. That is rich and satisfying.. 

When I watch cable movies, I find a lot of the music just a watered down version of something else.. My friend (heavily into movie trailer works) gives me a run down of the libraries used for each piece..

On the other hand I think there are some extremely talented composers here and at "Young Composers.com"...

There's always going to be copycats, and originals..


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## Tanuj Tiku (Nov 6, 2014)

I just think, people over-think such issues. Great music is written all the time. There are many A-listers in Hollywood today who are really great! AND there are a lot of great young composers around who are not even in hollywood at the moment. Certainly much better than I am. 

Then there is a group of people who do not like anything that is too far away from orchestral music. Film music is very new in the history of things. Its evolving. There is a lot of bad stuff out there (well possible that some of it is my own) but that is just the case with everything in life.

Why does everyone get bothered with what others are doing all the time? Its just very negative to constantly keep thinking that the best days are behind us. Its all over, the great composers are few and most of them are dead. I dont think so! 

Just because Soundcloud exists does not mean everyone is a great composer. There are more commercials to score, more films being made today, a lot more people want to do these things too. Mass consumption is high. Everyone has a cell phone and what have you. Its cultural, globalisation and so many other factors which have nothing to do with music. 

So, what did you expect that every single person born will be a great composer? Like someone said above, there were 2000 registered composers in Mozart's time in Vienna. Well, there is only one Mozart! 

The universities are still there. The great film makers are still around. If all you can think of is Man of Steel or Dark Knight then it does not mean the whole world is just about that! I love the new Batman movies and the score. But that is NOT the only kind of film music or the only kind of films. 

The problem is with people having the need to do something BIGGER than what they did last. Something more magical and a more powerful work. I just think I want to write good music which is suitable for the film. We all have our heroes and that is OK but yes, a true professional and a great composer will have something to say through their music. I find that point the most important. Can you tell something through your music? Do you have something to say? And this part of you will only develop if you keep finding new ways to doing things and learning. The more you exercise that, the better you get at it. If you are lazy and just copy the latest trend then well, you are not going to last long. None of the A-listers sound anything like each other. That is the answer right there for you!

I think it is better to think of good and suitable music, the story and what that story needs. And really that is the key. That is how any of the great composers had done it. 

I imagine Hans Zimmer had no idea even with 20 years of experience that the Batman music will start the kind of crazy following that it has. Neither did John Williams. They just did what they thought was appropriate after collaborating with the directors and they write great music!

Its easy to look at events and decide a certain thing after they have occurred. 

I can listen to something and say - well that's easy or its not done properly or its not appropriate. But when you look at a blank picture and have to come up with something unique - believe me its really hard! All this talk goes away very quickly!



Tanuj.


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## Carles (Nov 6, 2014)

Great post Alexandre, as well as great replies here.
I think it's a complex issue actually.

Is not a bad thing that the young composers will try to imitate other guys as that's part of the quest to find the style in which one feels more comfortable or one can get better results. Not so good keep doing that as a permanent approach though.

In the other hand, people have to pay the bills, and if your client is asking you for something specific, what can you do? your principles surely won't pay the bills, so you have no many choices.

However, we can all learn from Shostakovich who not only had to make a living but also had to suffer severe restrictions for political reasons (under the cruel menace to get imprisoned into a labour camp and stop writing music forever).
He was brilliantly able to manage such a extreme circumstance satisfying all parts.

Not an easy task for sure, but I think it's well deserved to give a try at least and try to introduce a little piece of your heart within any requested style that will pay your bills. Surely not 100% you, but at least a little expression of yourself can be reflected in there (for good or bad) and perhaps some day you'll be able to increase that percentage of yourself while still commercially acceptable.

I think it's important to don't prematurely give up without trying at least to see if people likes what you write or not.


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## guitarman1960 (Nov 7, 2014)

This is a very interesting and deep topic. How many film composers or trailer composers have their own style and sound? Very few, but then again look at all the rock bands from 1960's to present day and how many of all the thousands of rock bands and electric guitarists have their own sound, really only a handfull.

Truly having a sound of your own is probably the most difficult thing for a composer or musician to develop, even more so if it's your sole means of earning a living, as Carles mentioned above, when there are bills to pay, he who pays the piper calls the tune.

When someone like HZ creates something as memorable and distinctive as the Batman score, and also something as successful as the Batman score, then its only natural that it will inspire others to try and do a similar thing. Look how many guitarists are STILL trying to do Hendrix inspired stuff. If something is really great people will want to try and recreate that same thing. The few really good ones will add their own stamp to it and eventually develop something of their own, but not many will achieve that.

Its also true that a lot of people seem to measure film music by Hollywood Blockbusters, and there is that thing going on where everything has to be bigger, louder, faster and more massive than everything else, which is just very sad and pathetic really, but how that cycle can be broken I have no idea.


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## FriFlo (Nov 7, 2014)

You seem to forget something! Only because something is popular, doesn't mean, it is good! There are so many silly commercial tunes or ringtones, that come to my mind.... They certainly have a quality of sticking in your head, but that is only one small criteria of quality! And also, if the film is very successful, many people will have heared it and know it. If they liked the film, they will often like the music. Having heared the music without the film, they wouldn't care very much for it. I am not saying, batman or dark knight are bad filmmusic! But IMO there are way better scores. Musically, I prefer the elfman batman any day!


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## Black Light Recordings (Dec 16, 2014)

This is why I love this forum. Great thread Alex. Plenty of food for thought.

G


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