# How to sound contemporary without synths



## Soundbed (Sep 27, 2021)

What are some (movie or tv scoring) compositional techniques that sound “contemporary” without using synthesizers and sound design?

If not a technique, maybe a soundtrack to reference?

Not talking about modernism, post modern, aleatoric, chance music or neo classical in a broad sense … I’m talking it’s late 2021 and ways to sound up to date with acoustic instruments.

Many of the soundtracks people revere here on VI-C are 20-40 years old and some of them — even then — harkened back to earlier styles. 

Have you heard anything recently that didn’t involve synths or sound design but sounded “contemporary” to you?


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## Rtomproductions (Sep 27, 2021)

Aleatoric strings (flautando, sul tasto, etc. and combinations of them) and non-standard chord voicing. Gotta be really careful with the latter though; a non-standard chord voicing that doesn't sound *very* intentional sounds *very* bad


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## Jackdnp121 (Sep 27, 2021)

i think in general music using more modern harmony/chords and odd time signature changes helps with the modern feel ….. and also maybe abit more experimental …. ? 🤨


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## doctoremmet (Sep 27, 2021)

I find this to sound very modern yet not electronic:


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## Living Fossil (Sep 27, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> What are some (movie or tv scoring) compositional techniques that sound “contemporary” without using synthesizers and sound design?
> ...
> Not talking about modernism, post modern, aleatoric, chance music or neo classical in a broad sense … I’m talking it’s late 2021 and ways to sound up to date with acoustic instruments.


I guess the second sentence (that I've quoted) opens a tiny door towards a discussion of aesthetical approaches.

While the whole area of contemporary [avantgarde] music is in no means a heterogeneous area, a lot of it sounds extremely dated, specially if it triggers some of the avantgarde clichés.
And a lot of techniques that rely on the classical modern area (which inlcudes the afforementioned "modern harmony/chords and odd time signatures") sound even completely outdated in the area of film music, having been used (and exploited) in many filmes between the 1960-80ies...

Then again, i wouldn't completely exclude that area of contemporary [avantgarde] music but rather embrace some of the techniques there were developed in the past 50-70 years.

Things like micro-polyphony, aspects of _musique spectrale_ and even confined aleatoric textures can be used in different aesthetic concepts. They are absolutely not restricted to an atonal harmonic language.
(and i use them a lot, mostly when working with "real" musicians [i.e. not with samples].)

There are interesting modern aspects in the music of Johann Johannson (there has been a thread with unplublished tracks from him) in my opinion – I guess it was either music that was intended to be used in Blade Runner or in Dune.


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## José Herring (Sep 27, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> What are some (movie or tv scoring) compositional techniques that sound “contemporary” without using synthesizers and sound design?
> 
> If not a technique, maybe a soundtrack to reference?
> 
> ...


It's because you have to go back 20 years ago when this was last being done in the late 90's. 

Today there's not a lot of demand for it. Using acoustic sounds and processing it electronically electroacoustic style is in demand and kind of represents the next wave of contemporary music as long as it's not too Milton Babbit style, if you catch my drift.

Nothing wrong with the progression of things. I find that HZ Dune is as avantgarde as music for film gets yet doesn't sound like John Cage scored a film. It sounds much cooler than that. 

Personally I'm excited. The new wave of avantgarde style music is cool. 

As far as techniques go minimalist scoring with repetitive patterns using standard instruments is about as adventurous as it's getting these days if you want to disqualify synths. And if you want to hear that then you need not look any further than Max Richter and HZ again.


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## szczaw (Sep 27, 2021)

Adding some abstraction and atonality ? Elements or background that is evolving: stacking up arpeggios with different time signatures, varying panning. Some kind of controlled chaos.


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## Faruh Al-Baghdadi (Sep 27, 2021)

Maybe asking "what doesn't sound as contemporary?" could be more helpful?


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Sep 27, 2021)

Atonality is like, 100 years old now.


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## Collywobbles (Sep 27, 2021)

To me it seems that modern soundtracks tend to be both melodically and harmonically simpler than scores from 20-40 years ago (generalising of course) - so one way of sounding "contemporary" could be to write less with less complexity and have a more broad strokes approach. 

There also seems to be a stronger focus on texture, which is probably why synths and sound design are so prevalent to begin with. You can obviously create amazing textures with only acoustic instruments, so this could be another potential way to sound more modern without using synths etc.

Last thing that comes to mind is guitars, both acoustic and electric. An electric guitar can be made to sound like almost anything, but that could veer into sound design territory I suppose.

This particular topic isn't exactly my wheelhouse, but it's the internet so I'll give my 2c anyway.


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## szczaw (Sep 27, 2021)

Sound morphing with Kyma.


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## José Herring (Sep 27, 2021)

szczaw said:


> Sound morphing with Kyma.


There are so many programs that do this now that there's no need to invest in a Kyma system. I even ran across a free one.


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## CT (Sep 27, 2021)

This is a vague answer because I'm rushed but I think there are plenty of ideas in the realm of concert music that still sound utterly fresh, even futuristic, despite going on half a century or more of age. And when transplanted into media music, they may be _completely_ new to those audiences. 

I'm all for the use of synths and electronic processing etc. to make new sounds, but I think feeling that those methods are necessary to make "the orchestra" sound contemporary is lacking in vision and awareness of the repertoire (not saying anyone here is guilty of this).

The real trick is utilizing these ideas in a tasteful way instead of going down the road of, for example, a lot of totally generic "scary" scores that just toss every bit of commodified avant-garde thinking into a blender.


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## toddkreuz (Sep 27, 2021)

Pioneer your own direction. Anybody of note did the same.


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## quickbrownf0x (Sep 27, 2021)

I use 8Dios Misfit fiddle. Timestretched it to infinity, messed it up beyond recognition with Decapitator, recorded a few burps on my phone, put that on top, added plenty of Blackhole and to my surprise, boom - I got the soundtrack for Dune.


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## Pier (Sep 27, 2021)

Minimalistic composition, processed acoustic instruments, weird articulations, I think.


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## borisb2 (Sep 27, 2021)

toddkreuz said:


> Pioneer your own direction. Anybody of note did the same.


Sounds trivial but I think thats the key:

Do something (with the orchestra) that hasnt been done before, and do it now. 😋 Wouldnt that be the definition of contemporary?

The question is how pleasing is it to hear?


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## youngpokie (Sep 27, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> compositional techniques that sound “contemporary” without using synthesizers and sound design?





Soundbed said:


> Many of the soundtracks people revere here on VI-C are 20-40 years old and some of them — even then — harkened back to earlier styles.



I wonder if it might not be a good idea to simply flip the question on its head: what are the specific compositional techniques that instantly create that dated sound or associations with material from several decades ago?

For example, to my ears that loud in-your-face brass fanfare is so extremely banal and overused now, it instantly takes me back to 1880s and screams "a little old fashioned"  There is probably some similar cliché approach that everyone can instantly recall about every orchestral section.

It's almost like they are supposed to be so one-dimensional, stereotypical and somehow "tired", which of course is nonsense...

Perhaps there is some value in exploring and exposing the other dimensions of these instruments that are so rarely heard and _then_ experimenting with combining them in unusual ways. 

I remember reading the Brant book on certain timbre combinations and so many were truly eye-opening (e.g. straight mute trumpet and an oboe!) and indeed sounded incredible when checked. I think contemporary is almost synonymous with new anyway, so maybe something to consider...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 27, 2021)

What makes music contemporary is a fresh viewpoint.

The instrumentation follows that more than the other way around.

Jeff Beale's music for House of Cards is the example that comes to mind (it's awesome), but it's far from the only one.


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## darkogav (Sep 27, 2021)

I hear a lot of newer soundtracks that I really like but they all usually use synth and sound design. The only composer I can think of off the top of my hear who doesn't use that much synths is Santaolalla.



there is also Warren Ellis, the guy in Grinderman with Nick Cave



Is it contemporary? I don't know? What does contemporary mean to you?


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## Soundbed (Sep 29, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> I wonder if it might not be a good idea to simply flip the question on its head: what are the specific compositional techniques that instantly create that dated sound or associations with material from several decades ago?
> 
> For example, to my ears that loud in-your-face brass fanfare is so extremely banal and overused now, it instantly takes me back to 1880s and screams "a little old fashioned"  There is probably some similar cliché approach that everyone can instantly recall about every orchestral section.
> 
> ...


This is very interesting to ponder!

Indeed you’ve allowed me to focus exactly on avoiding clichés. 

Thank you!

I’m not exactly trying to sound “experimental” to a contemporary audience or shuttle them into some rehash of New Music ventures from the last century … so I guess you’ve helped me reformulate and reframe! Very helpful!


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## Soundbed (Sep 29, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Jeff Beale's music for House of Cards is the example that comes to mind (it's awesome), but it's far from the only one.


Great example and very in line with my thinking as well, in terms of a practical example. Could you offer a couple others please?


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## blaggins (Sep 30, 2021)

I've found the soundtrack to The Green Night to be very unique (to my ears) and aside from some sound design-y stuff I don't think there's hardly a synth in there. Daniel Hart seems to use quite a lot of historical instrumentation but somehow it still feels like a very "modern" soundtrack to me.


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## Leon Willett (Oct 1, 2021)

Check out Minority Report by John Williams!! 😉

It is a symphonic score, but it has a very synthy, contemporary color to it.


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## doctoremmet (Oct 1, 2021)

Leon Willett said:


> Check out Minority Report by John Williams!! 😉
> 
> It is a symphonic score, but it has a very synthy, contemporary color to it.


Cool suggestion, as much as I like this movie and its popcultural relevance I have no conscious recollection of the score and was completely unaware it was a Williams one. Off to listen to it right now!


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## wilifordmusic (Oct 1, 2021)

Leon Willett said:


> Check out Minority Report by John Williams!! 😉
> 
> It is a symphonic score, but it has a very synthy, contemporary color to it.


If you like this one, you should also check out his score for War of the Worlds.
He uses some absolutely brutal sounding techniques for orchestra.

Possibly the best thing I've ever heard him do. And he's not exactly a sloucher.


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## Leon Willett (Oct 1, 2021)

wilifordmusic said:


> If you like this one, you should also check out his score for War of the Worlds.
> He uses some absolutely brutal sounding techniques for orchestra.
> 
> Possibly the best thing I've ever heard him do. And he's not exactly a sloucher.


Agree 100%. His war of the worlds score is jaw dropping. Pure evil!


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## Kent (Oct 1, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> What are some (movie or tv scoring) compositional techniques that sound “contemporary” without using synthesizers and sound design?
> 
> If not a technique, maybe a soundtrack to reference?
> 
> ...


Honestly, using the orchestra/acoustic instruments as a synth.

Imagine how many times you've heard this arrangement recipe:

Arps of mid and high strings
Bass of low strings
Pads of (mega) brass
Polyrhythmic sequences of 3-6 'layers' of percussion
Leads of high brass and, where applicable, a woodwind color

All of the timbres are acoustic, but the composition and formal structure are completely rooted in the layered synth-tracking practices that were codified in the 70s and 80s. (Production sheen and melodic shapes are 'modern', of course).

Funnily enough, it's pretty easy to write this way with 'acoustic' sounds with MIDI-controlled sampled acoustic instruments in a DAW.


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## Tim_Wells (Oct 1, 2021)

quickbrownf0x said:


> I use 8Dios Misfit fiddle. Timestretched it to infinity, messed it up beyond recognition with Decapitator, recorded a few burps on my phone, put that on top, added plenty of Blackhole and to my surprise, boom - I got the soundtrack for Dune.


I'm gonna sue you for stealing my patented sound design technique.


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## GNP (Oct 1, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Atonality is like, 100 years old now.


Exactly.


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## GNP (Oct 1, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> What are some (movie or tv scoring) compositional techniques that sound “contemporary” without using synthesizers and sound design?
> 
> If not a technique, maybe a soundtrack to reference?
> 
> ...


I still go back to John Williams' War Of The Worlds. That's 2005.


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## gsilbers (Oct 1, 2021)

Pier said:


> Minimalistic composition, processed acoustic instruments, weird articulations, I think.




yeah i think these are the best examples. using odd tehcniques in a unique way.

Even referncing older score, but certain parts work great.
I think the score for the abyss, or alien;.. i forget. but using instruments to replicate modern equipment. so a timpani with harp together playing softly like a delay hit in 8th notes. Darn i cant remember/find that score i remember being so impressed on how cool it sounded for something in the 80s/90s. Maybe alan sylvesteyr ?

Maybe go back to those sci fi classics and hear stuff that sound modern. The stuff without string runs and melodies that poeple can "hum". that's the sort of style producers find cheesy nowadays. opting more for textures, sonic signatures etc.

theres is also a hans zimmer technique where he plays instruments at odd levels and velocites. like the SF zimer drums playing many but softly. I read somewhere about other instruments and cmposers using this sort of mix of playing softhing thats normally played very loud but playing softly and turning the volume up.


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## quickbrownf0x (Oct 1, 2021)

Tim_Wells said:


> I'm gonna sue you for stealing my patented sound design technique.


Something that rhymes with 'Oh, clucking bell'.


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## DanPhaseMusic (Oct 1, 2021)

Not the most intellectual response but I find the Slate and Ash vi’s are great for creating an organic/fresh/modern feel. Orchestrating on top with ‘exotic’ string techniques like the stuff in OT’s Time gets me quite a long way.


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## Soundbed (Oct 1, 2021)

DanPhaseMusic said:


> Not the most intellectual response but I find the Slate and Ash vi’s are great for creating an organic/fresh/modern feel. Orchestrating on top with ‘exotic’ string techniques like the stuff in OT’s Time gets me quite a long way.


Thanks! I really like your website too.


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## Soundbed (Oct 1, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Atonality is like, 100 years old now.


Right although modernism can still sound dated.

I'm realizing after considering the range of responses that the "trick" (if there is one) is to incorporate whatever techniques seem germane to the source material or fitting, but do it with enough style and finesse as to avoid sounding like a pastiche or cheap imitation.

I thought I was looking for specific techniques but I'm realizing maybe it's not about any particular technique but about how one approaches synthesizing — pardon the pun — one's understanding of all musical approaches that have come before and putting them together in a way that are "digestible" by a contemporary audience without sounding ... again, cliché.

Not what I was expecting to get out of the thread but useful and helpful nonetheless.

My favorite answer so far was:



youngpokie said:


> I wonder if it might not be a good idea to simply flip the question on its head: what are the specific compositional techniques that instantly create that dated sound or associations with material from several decades ago?


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## Soundbed (Oct 1, 2021)

tpoots said:


> I've found the soundtrack to The Green Night to be very unique (to my ears) and aside from some sound design-y stuff I don't think there's hardly a synth in there. Daniel Hart seems to use quite a lot of historical instrumentation but somehow it still feels like a very "modern" soundtrack to me.



I haven't seen this yet but it's on my list. Sounding contemporary while writing for a period piece / historical drama is an extra challenge! The Young Pope had some really interesting musical choices that sort of straddled the "historical" vibe of the settings in the Vatican while sounding fresh and often "current" for a viewing audience today.


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## Faruh Al-Baghdadi (Oct 1, 2021)

This thing sounds amazing and modern even today, btw. I'ts more than 30 years old 😱
And it's very melodic, no atonal techniques whatsoever.


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## Faruh Al-Baghdadi (Oct 1, 2021)

😔✊ 


Faruh Al-Baghdadi said:


> This thing sounds amazing and modern even today, btw. I'ts more than 30 years old 😱
> And it's very melodic, no atonal techniques whatsoever.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Oct 1, 2021)

There is of course the inescapable reality that there are _a priori_ aesthetic _Universals_ which will tie the music to all canonical music in some way. Even atonal and aleatoric music of the last century is often categorically Romanic in gesture, orchestration, and form, for example.

Whoever successfully looks backwards in music history and merges that with Zimmerian audio recording production, in the new 3D audio medium, wins. That new sound will then trickle down into film music. Consider me the founder of the American Surrealist (or Spatialist) School*. 😂😎

*Treatise to follow in 2026.


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## Pier (Oct 1, 2021)

Faruh Al-Baghdadi said:


> This thing sounds amazing and modern even today, btw. I'ts more than 30 years old 😱
> And it's very melodic, no atonal techniques whatsoever.



Hmm I don't know.

Maybe it's because I grew up with that stuff, but it sounds very 80s to me. The synthetic sounds, the overly triumphant chords and melodies, etc.


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## Faruh Al-Baghdadi (Oct 1, 2021)

Pier said:


> Hmm I don't know.
> 
> Maybe it's because I grew up with that stuff, but it sounds very 80s to me. The synthetic sounds, the overly triumphant chords and melodies, etc.


The only thing I found out for sure in this thread is that each one of us has a different idea of what's "modern" and what's "not"🥴


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## Saxer (Oct 1, 2021)

I like the work of Abe Korzeniowski


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## Kent (Oct 1, 2021)

Pier said:


> Hmm I don't know.
> 
> Maybe it's because I grew up with that stuff, but it sounds very 80s to me. The synthetic sounds, the overly triumphant chords and melodies, etc.


Yeah this could only have come out in the 1980s. Even current nostalgia throwbacks influenced by the 80s aesthetic won’t do this.


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## Collywobbles (Oct 1, 2021)

@Soundbed Check out Bear McCreary's 2018 God of War soundtrack, very modern sounding imo.


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 1, 2021)

I thought that Ryuichi Sakamoto's score to Revenant was very modern, yet very organic.


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## Pier (Oct 1, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> I thought that Ryuichi Sakamoto's score to Revenant was very modern, yet very organic.


It's awesome.

He composed it with Alva Noto, a glitch electronic artist with whom he has worked on a number of albums together.

Edit:

Here's one of their performances:


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## Soundbed (Oct 2, 2021)

Pier said:


> It's awesome.
> 
> He composed it with Alva Noto, a glitch electronic artist with whom he has worked on a number of albums together.



Off topic I first read that as Aldo Nova and got excited for some dueling guitar solos.


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## mscp (Oct 2, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> What are some (movie or tv scoring) compositional techniques that sound “contemporary” without using synthesizers and sound design?



There isn't, perhaps? Everything has been thought of in the past at least once. 'Modern' is just rehashing old concepts and making it fit with the ideals of today. But then again, my focal point is far limited because I haven't literally listened to everything out in the market.

The only real noticeable difference, in my opinion, is the improvement in the quality of recordings due to advances in technology -- but that can easily fall under a subjective area.


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## Megreen (Oct 3, 2021)

PeterN said:


> 6.2/10
> 
> He is getting close to reach something beautiful, but he never crosses that bridge. Stays in black and white Krakow/orchards in Czeckoslovakia. Thanks for sharing.


Pseudo-intellectualism 10/10.


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## Saxer (Oct 3, 2021)

PeterN said:


> 6.2/10
> 
> He is getting close to reach something beautiful, but he never crosses that bridge. Stays in black and white Krakow/orchards in Czeckoslovakia. Thanks for sharing.


btw: Krakow is in Poland


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## KEM (Oct 3, 2021)

Downtuned guitars!!


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## PeterN (Oct 3, 2021)

Saxer said:


> btw: Krakow is in Poland



Hey, I know. Thanks for the introduction of the guy. I digged the first track a lot. So I was looking forward to listen whole 1h. It was a disappointment to go through rest of the album - so the comment was spontaneous. Not directed at you - your post actually inspired to focus closer. I will delete the comment not to stir this good thread.

_(Just think a brutal honesty is better for art, than mediocre correctness, but this thread is not right one to stir with that. Apologies)_

Edit. Btw, the "orchard in Czheckoslovakia" is a legendary rant by Daniel J, when reviewing Spitfires Z strings. Still on youtube. Which is a hilarious rant. Never meant to say Krakow is in "Czheckoslovakia". Krakow is nice place btw, beautiful old town.


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## from_theashes (Oct 4, 2021)

KEM said:


> Downtuned guitars!!


That is SO 1994!


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## MartinH. (Oct 4, 2021)

from_theashes said:


> That is SO 1994!


With downtuned I hope he means downtuned 8-strings and 9-strings. Those weren't very popular in the 90s.


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## digitallysane (Oct 4, 2021)




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## darkogav (Oct 4, 2021)

KEM said:


> Downtuned guitars!!


the 90s called. they want their shtick back.


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## Rossy (Oct 4, 2021)

José Herring said:


> It's because you have to go back 20 years ago when this was last being done in the late 90's.
> 
> Today there's not a lot of demand for it. Using acoustic sounds and processing it electronically electroacoustic style is in demand and kind of represents the next wave of contemporary music as long as it's not too Milton Babbit style, if you catch my drift.
> 
> ...



For me, the nature of the actual orchestral instrument sound is what puts it in its relative time slot. maybe because I grew up in the late 60's early 70's and that's where my references come from. Obviously some composers come close but I feel when you add synths, be it pad, bass, arpeggiators, you bring a more "modern" or up to date feel to the sound and movie. The Max Richter piece is beautiful and lyrical and for me, definitely on the cusp of getting there. I have always had an issue with the HZ Interstellar sound track, not from the compositional point but rather the choice of instruments, the overpowering hard sounds were a problem for me to listen to, the chord progressions and melodies are beautiful but the instruments are just too much but who am I compared to him?
Although a pretty awful movie, WW84 does a great job of mixing the two formats, also by HZ, maybe taking a pad line or bass arpeggiator and converting it to orchestral instruments might work?


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## Rossy (Oct 4, 2021)

wilifordmusic said:


> If you like this one, you should also check out his score for War of the Worlds.
> He uses some absolutely brutal sounding techniques for orchestra.
> 
> Possibly the best thing I've ever heard him do. And he's not exactly a sloucher.


I just went and listened to it, absolutely fantastic, just the right amount of colour, darkness and rhythm. Amazing.


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## KEM (Oct 4, 2021)

from_theashes said:


> That is SO 1994!





MartinH. said:


> With downtuned I hope he means downtuned 8-strings and 9-strings. Those weren't very popular in the 90s.





darkogav said:


> the 90s called. they want their shtick back.



Come on now… don’t you guys know I’m the djent guy around here?? Of course I mean downtuned 8s!!

Skip to 1:50 and you’ll hear exactly what I mean


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## MartinH. (Oct 4, 2021)

KEM said:


> Come on now… don’t you guys know I’m the djent guy around here?? Of course I mean downtuned 8s!!


I do, it just seemed impolite to assume . 




KEM said:


> Skip to 1:50 and you’ll hear exactly what I mean


Not gonna lie, I prefer your own take on the genre, though I guess the synths would disqualify your track in the context of this thread:


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## KEM (Oct 4, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> I do, it just seemed impolite to assume .
> 
> 
> 
> Not gonna lie, I prefer your own take on the genre, though I guess the synths would disqualify your track in the context of this thread:




Yeah it felt a bit inappropriate to plug my own music lol, I knew you’d already heard that track and liked it, just didn’t think I could post it since like you said, very heavy on the synths!!

Point still stands though, downtuned 8s are a great way to sound contemporary, and if you want to sound contemporary with just the orchestra then try some polyrhythms!! Make the orchestra djent!!


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## Kent (Oct 4, 2021)

Ah boy, djent guitar (tone colors and playing style) seems to me to be today’s equivalent of the DX7 E. Piano 1 ballad. In 5, 10 years it will be the #1 hallmark of that dated late teens/early 20s sound.

That’s the rub: to sound the most current today, you will sound the most dated tomorrow.


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## Kent (Oct 4, 2021)

But that’s the genius of Hans Zimmer: whether you aesthetically like his music or not, whether you even respect the man or not, there is absolutely no denying that he stays at the forefront of relevancy.

Some of this is self-fulfilling—he’s a big name, so the market tends to go where he goes—but it’s more than that. Other big names come and go, or are exceptions to the rule who can get away with whatever they want while having very little impact on the rest of the industry’s output.

Not so with Hans. His music nearly unerringly not only captures the zeitgeist but defines it. His older stuff sounds dated these days, sure, but there is a clear thru-line of compositional tropes that shows that it _is_ possible to be true to yourself as an artist and still remain relevant for the kids these days.


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## KEM (Oct 4, 2021)

kmaster said:


> Ah boy, djent guitar (tone colors and playing style) seems to me to be today’s equivalent of the DX7 E. Piano 1 ballad. In 5, 10 years it will be the #1 hallmark of that dated late teens/early 20s sound.
> 
> That’s the rub: to sound the most current today, you will sound the most dated tomorrow.



I don’t entirely agree, Meshuggah’s first album came out in 1995 and still sounds incredibly modern (aside from the production/mixing), and I wasn’t even born when that album came out. It’s all about how you implement it, this is exactly why I think Ludwig Göransson is the greatest composer of all time, he’s able to take things like djent and trap and implement them in a way where they become completely separate from their origins and can stand on their own because of the way he’s able to use them. If you do something that’s JUST djent or trap or whatever else then sure, it might not age as well, but if you’re able to bring elements of them into something else and create a new aesthetic then you stand a better chance of staying relevant, exactly like you mentioned with Zimmer


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## Kent (Oct 4, 2021)

KEM said:


> I don’t entirely agree, Meshuggah’s first album came out in 1995 and still sounds incredibly modern (aside from the production/mixing), and I wasn’t even born when that album came out.


Well sure, I'm not saying Djent is 'new', just that it is the current hotness that becomes ubiquitous and then sounds dated. See dubstep, which had strong roots in the UK dance scene of the late 80s through the 90s, became its own thing in the early 2000s, was everywhere you looked from about 2009-2012, and now (though it has 1-2 decades of growth before that time) is a prime signifier of that era of popular taste. To play dubstep straight *now* will immediately sound retro.


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## KEM (Oct 4, 2021)

kmaster said:


> Well sure, I'm not saying Djent is 'new', just that it is the current hotness that becomes ubiquitous and then sounds dated. See dubstep, which had strong roots in the UK dance scene of the late 80s through the 90s, became its own thing in the early 2000s, was everywhere you looked from about 2009-2012, and now (though it has 1-2 decades of growth before that time) is a prime signifier of that era of popular taste. To play dubstep straight *now* will immediately sound retro.



Oh for sure, no argument there, but again I have to bring up Ludwig since you mentioned dubstep, he was able to use dubstep in a way that sounds completely different and feels very modern as a result, if he was to do straight dubstep with 4 on the floor edm drums it would definitely sound like 2011, but by bringing it just one element of it into his world it’s able to feel new again


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## Pier (Oct 4, 2021)

KEM said:


> Oh for sure, no argument there, but again I have to bring up Ludwig since you mentioned dubstep, he was able to use dubstep in a way that sounds completely different and feels very modern as a result, if he was to do straight dubstep with 4 on the floor edm drums it would definitely sound like 2011, but by bringing it just one element of it into his world it’s able to feel new again



I remember when I watched the scene when those black androids get turned on I thought "wow Ludwig did really put dubstep into Star Wars!".


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## KEM (Oct 4, 2021)

Pier said:


> I remember when I watched the scene when those black androids get turned on I thought "wow Ludwig did really put dubstep into Star Wars!".



Ludwig can make anything work!! The greatest to ever do it, but I think you’ve heard me say that enough already…


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## Pier (Oct 4, 2021)

KEM said:


> Ludwig can make anything work!! The greatest to ever do it, but I think you’ve heard me say that enough already…


Disney has been looking for a John Williams replacement and experimenting with other composers like Giacchino and John Powell. The problem I think is they were always going back to the JW work which always sounded like an imitation. Probably because Disney required them to.

Maybe Ludwig was given more freedom to experiment. We'll see how it turns out on the next SW trilogy.


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## KEM (Oct 4, 2021)

Pier said:


> Disney has been looking for a John Williams replacement and experimenting with other composers like Giacchino and John Powell. The problem I think is they were always going back to the JW work which always sounded like an imitation. Probably because Disney required them to.
> 
> Maybe Ludwig was given more freedom to experiment. We'll see how it turns out on the next SW trilogy.



Ludwig’s done some interviews discussing the creation of The Mandalorian music and Jon Favreau deserves a ton of credit for allowing Ludwig to really be himself, instead of wanting Ludwig to just imitate John Williams they discussed classic samurai/western films and decided to go down that route, and Ludwig put his spin on that for sure and added his signature stuff like trap drums and edm synths, and when Ludwig does the John Williams style fanfare stuff in Mando it feels authentic because it really sounds like he’s paying tribute to Williams and not trying to BE Williams like the other composers Disney hired to do that, like you mentioned


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## Kent (Oct 4, 2021)

KEM said:


> Ludwig’s done some interviews discussing the creation of The Mandalorian music and Jon Favreau deserves a ton of credit for allowing Ludwig to really be himself, instead of wanting Ludwig to just imitate John Williams they discussed classic samurai/western films and decided to go down that route, and Ludwig put his spin on that for sure and added his signature stuff like trap drums and edm synths, and when Ludwig does the John Williams style fanfare stuff in Mando it feels authentic because it really sounds like he’s paying tribute to Williams and not trying to BE Williams like the other composers Disney hired to do that, like you mentioned


I actually found his 'Williamsy' moments very confusing, like the time he quoted the Kylo Ren theme when a ship was coming from space to land on a planet... ? 

But in every other moment, when he wasn't referencing Williams/'classic Star Wars tropes', I felt he was rather successful. A minimalist modern spaghetti western vibe is exactly the right choice for this story.

(edit: I don't blame LG for that moment, as it should have been something the producers caught...and they did not.)


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## KEM (Oct 4, 2021)

kmaster said:


> I actually found his 'Williamsy' moments very confusing, like the time he quoted the Kylo Ren theme when a ship was coming from space to land on a planet... ?
> 
> But in every other moment, when he wasn't referencing Williams/'classic Star Wars tropes', I felt he was rather successful. A minimalist modern spaghetti western vibe is exactly the right choice for this story.
> 
> (edit: I don't blame LG for that moment, as it should have been something the producers caught...and they did not.)



Do you have a clip of it or know what track? I don’t even remember the Kylo Ren theme so I can’t think of it off the top of my head, I’d need to hear both versions


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## Soundbed (Oct 4, 2021)

Interesting discussion I think, keep it going.

In no order whatsoever, I collected most of the videos and some of the specific mentions here for easy reference....

darkogav asked:



darkogav said:


> What does contemporary mean to you?


And I think of "contemporary" mostly in terms of audiences finding the music both cool and sort of "new-ish" sounding. As composers we can often place certain references in ways a contemporary audience of listeners can only vaguely consider.

Personally I have a strong association between the word "modern" and the Modernist movement of art which is what I consider "dated" in many ways. After modernism we had post modernism and others. So I don't say "modern" to mean "contemporary".

It's sort of like "pop" music. At one time Van Halen's OU812 (1988) had some pop hits but now it's classic rock.

I'd look at the movies that were hits in 1988 and consider them references for what "dated" probably sounds like:









1988: Year's Best Movies - IMDb


1988: Year's Best Movies




www.imdb.com





Die Hard and Beetlejuice are on that list, for instance.

Understood that film music doesn't change as often as fashion or DJ / Club music trends, but I started the conversation because I've been doing some studying of great styles and pieces from the past and wanted to yank my head out of that study to re-focus on what's happening today and what might come in the near future.

So far the thread has been very helpful!

Thanks to all who've contributed.

Again, in no order and highly editing the text of the replies...:



Collywobbles said:


> Bear McCreary's 2018 God of War soundtrack





marclawsonmusic said:


> Ryuichi Sakamoto's score to Revenant





Pier said:


> Alva Noto, a glitch electronic artist





Saxer said:


> I like the work of Abe Korzeniowski





tpoots said:


> soundtrack to The Green Night — Daniel Hart





doctoremmet said:


>





Living Fossil said:


> the music of Johann Johannson (there has been a thread with unplublished tracks from him) in my opinion – I guess it was either music that was intended to be used in Blade Runner or in Dune.





José Herring said:


> I find that HZ Dune is as avantgarde as music for film gets yet doesn't sound like John Cage scored a film. It sounds much cooler than that.
> ...
> you need not look any further than Max Richter and HZ again.


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## Soundbed (Oct 4, 2021)

Pier said:


>





darkogav said:


> Santaolalla.
> 
> there is also Warren Ellis, the guy in Grinderman with Nick Cave






Leon Willett said:


> Minority Report by John Williams





wilifordmusic said:


> also check out his score for War of the Worlds.
> He uses some absolutely brutal sounding techniques for orchestra.
> 
> Possibly the best thing I've ever heard him do.





KEM said:


> Of course I mean downtuned 8s!!
> 
> Skip to 1:50 and you’ll hear exactly what I mean





digitallysane said:


>


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## Soundbed (Oct 4, 2021)

KEM said:


> I have to bring up Ludwig since you mentioned dubstep, he was able to use dubstep in a way that sounds completely different and feels very modern as a result, if he was to do straight dubstep with 4 on the floor edm drums it would definitely sound like 2011, but by bringing it just one element of it into his world it’s able to feel new again




(can only paste 6 MEDIA type links per reply  )


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## José Herring (Oct 4, 2021)

KEM said:


> Oh for sure, no argument there, but again I have to bring up Ludwig since you mentioned dubstep, he was able to use dubstep in a way that sounds completely different and feels very modern as a result, if he was to do straight dubstep with 4 on the floor edm drums it would definitely sound like 2011, but by bringing it just one element of it into his world it’s able to feel new again



I really like what he did in the Mando scores. It's hard not to because it so reminds me of all the westerns I use to listen to growing up but more modern. 

I think when you do anything new people are going to criticize because it's not what they're use to. But, if you are doing that new thing when people want what you have, guess what, you're the only one doing that thing so you'll get hired provide enough of your stuff is out there for people to notice.

Curious why you mentioned Dub Step because I always just thought it was good synth work. I didn't know it had a particular style associated it with it. What makes this synth work dubstep? Honest question. I know so little about the electronic subgenres of EDM music.


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## Soundbed (Oct 4, 2021)

Another thing I am considering is products like Legendary Low strings from Spitfire, and how some of the Abbey Road expansions encourage looking to "classic" scores and recreating some of those techniques. Of course that's not all Spitfire is working on and their BHT seems interesting enough to use in a contemporary piece. But I'm at a point where I'm trying to separate how certain sounds "recall" older works versus forge "new" (or new-ish) territory, and synthesizing (again pardon the pun) these in my mind to know when I'm doing one or the other.

Sometimes I find myself doing something I think is cool and realizing it's been done a LOT — just not yet by me.

And for years I've been working from references provided by TV Producers to TV Library owners, which are usually a couple years behind the movies, so I'm acknowledging that I've been working on requests that specifically ask for sounds that are already "dated enough" to be on TV; usually pioneered by movies first.


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## Collywobbles (Oct 4, 2021)

I also wonder how far a simple "fresh coat of paint" will get you. Let's say they re-recorded an older soundtrack note-for-note and simply mixed it more in line with today's film music aesthetic. Not saying it'll get you all the way to contemporary, but it will definitely make a massive difference.


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## José Herring (Oct 4, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> And for years I've been working from references provided by TV Producers to TV Library owners, which are usually a couple years behind the movies, so I'm acknowledging that I've been working on requests that specifically ask for sounds that are already "dated enough" to be on TV; usually pioneered by movies first.


Interesting because usually I find movies to be the most dated scores around save for a few people that dare to break the mold. 

But, I like it all anyway. Old, new, dated, not dated mean nothing to me. It's all about the effect that's created. If it's too new then people don't know what to think of it. I use to use to use that old bride's saying, "something old, something new, something borrowed and something blue". I use to humorously say that about my music. Now that I look at it, it's not a bad motto to go by creatively.


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## Kent (Oct 4, 2021)

KEM said:


> Do you have a clip of it or know what track? I don’t even remember the Kylo Ren theme so I can’t think of it off the top of my head, I’d need to hear both versions


if you look at page 15/70 of Frank Lehman's Star Wars motivic catalogue:






Complete Catalogue of the Musical Themes of Star Wars : Frank Lehman


The definitive resource for studying, performing & teaching music of Star Wars. Regularly updated w/ new info on John Williams's iconic scores & leitmotifs.




franklehman.com





You will see Kylo Ren's theme:






under 41a, the example listenings/iterations are:

KYLO REN 1 
VII
VIII
IX

etc.

and compare with The Mandalorian, Season 1, Episode 3 ('The Sin'), starting at exactly 3 minutes in.


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## KEM (Oct 4, 2021)

José Herring said:


> I really like what he did in the Mando scores. It's hard not to because it so reminds me of all the westerns I use to listen to growing up but more modern.
> 
> I think when you do anything new people are going to criticize because it's not what they're use to. But, if you are doing that new thing when people want what you have, guess what, you're the only one doing that thing so you'll get hired provide enough of your stuff is out there for people to notice.
> 
> Curious why you mentioned Dub Step because I always just thought it was good synth work. I didn't know it had a particular style associated it with it. What makes this synth work dubstep? Honest question. I know so little about the electronic subgenres of EDM music.



Dubstep synthesis is basically the whole bass wobbly “wubwub” OTT compression Serum stuff, no better example than Scary Monsters by Skrillex (which I think is either Massive or FM8 since Serum wasn’t out yet), it’s pretty much the most famous dubstep song ever


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## KEM (Oct 4, 2021)

kmaster said:


> if you look at page 15/70 of Frank Lehman's Star Wars motivic catalogue:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok sweet I’ll definitely have to check this out, I have no idea if Ludwig did it intentionally, if I had to guess I’d probably say he did it subconsciously since Mando obviously has nothing to do with Kylo Ren, maybe he was listening to the latest Star Wars music for inspiration and that somehow seeped in


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## Kent (Oct 4, 2021)

@KEM That precise thing, IMO (not to derail this main convo), is the major difference between the OT/PT and the non-Williams-based official Star Wars media*: the lack of strict, strict adherence to and development of specific motivic materials.

Accident or not, and blame assigned wherever, and aesthetics aside, this is the prime reason that modern Star Wars does not feel like Star Wars to me. For however convoluted the plot or wooden the dialogue, the music _always_ had absolute narrative authority.

Now, it's just suggestive.


....and maybe that is how one can sound contemporary without synths? A NLE-based 'music-editing-in' rather than a locked picture against which a supporting narrative can be composed.

*The ST does suffer from this to some extent, though.


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## Ray Cole (Oct 4, 2021)

Really interesting thread!

Amie Doherty's music for Netflix's short-lived series, _Undone_, seems contemporary to me without being avant-garde or relying on synths. Maybe in part because it is written for smaller forces rather than full orchestra? She does use unusual instrumentation, though, from time to time, and sometimes some interesting processing.





That second one is either microtonal or using a non-standard tuning, I think.


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## Soundbed (Oct 5, 2021)

kmaster said:


> That precise thing, IMO (not to derail this main convo), is the major difference between the OT/PT and the non-Williams-based official Star Wars media*: the lack of strict, strict adherence to and development of specific motivic materials.
> 
> Accident or not, and blame assigned wherever, and aesthetics aside, this is the prime reason that modern Star Wars does not feel like Star Wars to me. For however convoluted the plot or wooden the dialogue, the music _always_ had absolute narrative authority.
> 
> ...


What’s OT/PT and ST?

Edit - original trilogy, prequel trilogy and …?


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## Kent (Oct 5, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> What’s OT/PT and ST?


Original/Prequel/Sequel Trilogy


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## Soundbed (Oct 5, 2021)

Ray Cole said:


> Really interesting thread!
> 
> Amie Doherty's music for Netflix's short-lived series, _Undone_, seems contemporary to me without being avant-garde or relying on synths. Maybe in part because it is written for smaller forces rather than full orchestra? She does use unusual instrumentation, though, from time to time, and sometimes some interesting processing.
> 
> ...



Thanks. I was also thinking about smaller ensemble sizes as being relevant to very recent movies (including movies for streaming); they are getting made with smaller casts due to covid. I watched Jake Jyllenhall (so?) and Megan Fox movies recently on Netflix that had small casts. Smaller musical ensembles would have been appropriate.


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