# Is there too much library / company bashing on this forum?



## Danny_Owen (May 18, 2011)

Titles says it all... thoughts anyone? I'm all down for asking if anyone is having similar problems, but recently things have been getting a bit silly I feel.


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## Ashermusic (May 18, 2011)

I have been saying that here for ages. I much prefer to focus on what I like and praise it than bash what I do not.


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## uselessmind (May 18, 2011)

I haven't noticed any bashing of libraries or companies.

Where in this forum is it happening?


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## RiffWraith (May 18, 2011)

I have never been bashed. :D 

Well, over the head few times here and there, but that's a different story....


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## Hannes_F (May 18, 2011)

I found the guys here have excellent ears and knowledge and therefore can be a tough crowd with new products ... however if something is really good it will get consentaneus acceptance.

You could eventually talk about library bashing if I would always say what I think because that could then be quite crushing at times. If I would let myself loose you could eventually read words like caricatures of instruments well suited for caricatures of music and the like ... but I am too polite. :mrgreen:


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## lee (May 18, 2011)

I dont think there is too much of that. It´s not hard to stop reading the threads that may irritate you.

/Johnny


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## Danny_Owen (May 18, 2011)

Well, it's partially the topic titles and what they imply, such as: SPITFIRE Harp...whats up with messed up release samples?
Also the whole EW switching back to Kontakt thing is ridiculous, I don't know if the original poster intended it as a joke but the whole thing has just been a PLAY slagging-off-a-thon, when personally I've not had any significant problems and I've been using it since it first arrived on the scene.

In the past I've had small problems with both Kontakt libraries and PLAY libraries equally, and have always had them sorted by simply talking to the right people. Of course I have to adapt it to my own setup- when has that ever been different? It seems strange to me that people don't expect there to be some work to get a library working within their workflow.

A little while ago, I sent Paul at Spitfire a private email about something I thought I'd spotted that seemed weird about Spitfire Percussion, he checked it on his system, it turned out I was right and the next day he sent a patch to every user to correct the issue. That, I think is the level of service that most developers here want to deliver, and if done in the right way with evidence of what is going on, usually they can help. And that, I think, is the right way to handle it instead of making a topic on an open forum saying: 'whats up with messed up samples', which implies instantly that it is the company's fault and not something at the user's end.

I just feel for people the people here who are representing the products. It seems a lot of people prefer to just vent their frustration here rather than actually seek help for their problems in the best way they can.


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## lee (May 18, 2011)

Danny_Owen: I can understand what you´re saying. However, as long as the debate doesnt degenerate in personal insults, and/or obvious attempts of trying to make companies look bad/evil/crap for personal reasons, I think the moderators in this forum are right in not interfering.

Edit: And what I`ve seen on various forum boards, is that people write alot about their problems with software, not about their successes. I think the developers know this, though it can probably be a pain in the ass sometimes.

/Johnny


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## José Herring (May 18, 2011)

There is an there isn't. How's that for an answer!

This forum has driven off developers in the past. And if it wasn't for the fact that there are some really good people who's opinion seem to matter on this forum I'm sure they would have been long gone.

Traditionally this has been a composer's forum and we've kind of gotten spoiled in that we can speak our mind here with out too many repercussions.

So the library/company bashing can take two forums. The understandable one is when me or any other guy really, has been working on getting something working for days, then finally we come on here and unload, something along the lines of, "this piece of shit (insert product) doesn't friggin' work and I can't figure out why". Sometimes developers have taken this a little too seriously and have felt the need to defend said products and the resulting clash can be volatile, but very entertaining.

The other form of bashing, highly unfair, is when X company produces some product that somebody (not me of course ) disagrees with. I've noticed that this is when the companies tend to bail as they feel they've been treated unfairly by the forum.

All in all, though, I think people need to chill out. Daniel's harmless video is a prime example. Comparing LASS to HS where he mentions he kind of leans towards LASS in terms of usability. No harm really. Complained of Play a bit. Nothing untrue, then he gets slagged. Not really fair to him. It's just one man's opinion. I suppose if sucked then nobody would have really cared. The fact that he's decent means his opinion will carry some weight. So he gets knocked by the offending company.


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## chimuelo (May 18, 2011)

The fact that so many people respond is a good sign.
Rejection is an important part of compostition or developing an instrument.
When nobody has anything to say, that's a bad sign.
So any news is better than no news...

Beside I don't see NPhoenix as a touchy feely sensitive chap. He was praised for
bringing Giga Q&L Brass, and ever since then has taken lumps along with praise.
That's what success is all about...

This is a very fair forum, and I love learning tricks from guys who have the time to tweak stuff all day.
I have seen folks get banned here but not nearly as much as the Garritan forum.
Frederick has a fine place here and has shown more tolerance than other forums.

Let the threads roll on...


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## Andrew Aversa (May 18, 2011)

I think this is one of the most civil, mature forums I've ever participated in. Even threads with criticism are infinitely better than many other audio/composer forums.


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## José Herring (May 18, 2011)

I failed to mention and it really goes without saying that this is a great place. The only forum on the internet that I can stomach is this place. And, has been the only forum I have visited in years. So I hold VI control and it's members in pretty high regard.


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## choc0thrax (May 18, 2011)

Weird, I often find there's too much praising of libraries.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 18, 2011)

The answer is no. I'd like to see a lot more bashing of everyone around here, and not just developers.


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## wst3 (May 18, 2011)

this place is pretty tame when compared to many other music/pro-audio related forums. Sometimes a thread will meander off into the realm of real attacks, and that's not good.

Sometimes frustrations run high. There's a lot of pressure on folks to produce - not just library developers, but composers as well. When a certain level is reached it seems like things can get ugly.

It would be awesome if no one ever slagged other members or developers or companies, but that seems pretty unlikely... best bet is to stop responding when it gets ugly, but that's easier said than done sometimes!


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## MichaelL (May 19, 2011)

Not really.

Is it bashing when you merely point out that a company hasn't delivered in some ways?

There is no doubt that EW makes great sounding products. I own most. But its flexible delivery dates and propensity for announcing products LONG before they are actually ready is legendary ( cue REALLY BIG, dare I say it, EPIC trailer music and cliche VO "in a world where sample developers promise perfection"...).

Case in point -- Play Pro will be delivered in MARCH 2009 ---for $299.

http://www.macmusic.org/news/view.php/lang/en/id/7563/

Still waiting. 

In the meantime, Kontakt 4 and VE PRO are mainstays.


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## Synesthesia (May 19, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed May 18 said:


> The answer is no. I'd like to see a lot more bashing of everyone around here, and not just developers.



Nick, you're an a**hole.
:mrgreen:


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## Synesthesia (May 19, 2011)

Danny_Owen @ Wed May 18 said:


> Well, it's partially the topic titles and what they imply, such as: SPITFIRE Harp...whats up with messed up release samples?
> Also the whole EW switching back to Kontakt thing is ridiculous, I don't know if the original poster intended it as a joke but the whole thing has just been a PLAY slagging-off-a-thon, when personally I've not had any significant problems and I've been using it since it first arrived on the scene.
> 
> In the past I've had small problems with both Kontakt libraries and PLAY libraries equally, and have always had them sorted by simply talking to the right people. Of course I have to adapt it to my own setup- when has that ever been different? It seems strange to me that people don't expect there to be some work to get a library working within their workflow.
> ...



Thanks Danny.

Its true, as developers, we try our hardest to make great libraries, but inevitably a few errors will creep in.

Its great when users come back to us directly and point out an issue because its probably something we haven't noticed, so we can then fix it.

Win win! o-[][]-o


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## Mike Connelly (May 19, 2011)

If a library or plugin has an actual problem with it and someone points it out, I don't see that as bashing at all. It's useful for other users to be aware of, and if a developer takes the right attitude, it can be helpful for them to be alerted to problems so they may fix them. Best case scenario is to contact the developer first about a problem, but that doesn't always end up with a solution.

And people are always going to have differing personal opinions. If someone doesn't like how a library sounds, I don't see the problem with giving that opinion.

There have been some developers who have left, but for the most part it has seemed like oversensitivity on the part of the developer. I suspect some would only be willing to participate if nothing negative was ever said about their products, not even pointing out reproducible bugs.

I think the key is when making criticisms is to be as specific as possible, say what platform you're using, what specific patches, even what specific notes are a problem. Even better is posting examples, audio files and midi so that others can see if the problem is in the library or specific to one user.


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## Ashermusic (May 19, 2011)

I guess we need to define "bashing."

IMHO, to write "I am having this problem with Company/Library A" is not bashing.

Even writing, "I am having this problem with Company/Library. I have reported it but they have not responded and do not seem to be doing anything about it" is not bashing.

Bashing to me is the constant looking for negatives to write about a company or library (or successful composer for that matter) while downplaying the positives. There is a lot of that that goes on here. Conversely there are some developers here who are "pets" and I believe a number of people heres are constantly looking for positives to write about these companies or libraries while downplaying the negatives.

There are a lot of reasons for this, some earned, some misguided IMHO and I am not going to debate the merits on a case by case basis. But when a new product is released I think it is fair to say, there is not a level playing field here, and there should be. 

I honestly believe that if people were to listen to libraries they think they like and dislike in a blind test without knowing who the company or developer is, a lot of people would be surprised at the results.

I will now wax philosophical >8o 

In my personal life, I have realized that since I am imperfect and want to be valued despite my myriad flaws, I must do the same with others. If a person has lots of good qualities, I must focus on those, This does not mean I turn a blind eye to the flaws and indeed if I deem the person to be open to them, as I try to be, I will suggest areas of possible growth. But at the end of the day, I focus on the positives and seek to surround myself with others who do the same.

I think we all need to remember that these companies and developers are human beings and the products are their babies. They work long and hard to develop them and have a pride of authorship. And so while they mostly are open to constructive critiques and requests, they are going to react negatively to ones they deem to be malicious or unfair and respond accordingly. it is simply human nature.


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## dcoscina (May 19, 2011)

I think it's good to identify issues with a particular library or software product as long as one articulates it in a fashion that allows the developer to address it and fix it (if applicable). I think most here are very specific about their concerns and don't slag something unnecessarily.


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## jamwerks (May 19, 2011)

These anynomous Forums are by their very nature extremely varied in tone, info, etc. Human beings are extremely varied, so you’ll find everything & it’s opposite, on ALL forums like this. o[])


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## midphase (May 19, 2011)

I have a couple of things to say about this:

1. If it wasn't for the sometimes harsh criticism voiced against some of the products and developers in the past few years, we wouldn't be where we are today in terms of sample technology. One of the reasons why Apple has been on the constant forefront of innovation is the internal bashing going on a daily basis coming from Steve Jobs himself. Not every company is fortunate to be run by Steve Jobs (yet), so in his absence, this (and other) forums provide some much needed reality check for developers.

2. I think negative or criticising posts tend to be a bit like red lights, we only tend to notice them and generally ignore the green lights because we take them for granted. I bet if someone would be willing to count the positive posts in praise of a company, product, or composer...they would greatly outnumber the negative ones.


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## uselessmind (May 19, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Thu May 19 said:


> Bashing to me is the constant looking for negatives to write about a company or library (or successful composer for that matter) while downplaying the positives.



To me its only fair. If a company wants less complaints about the negatives of a product, make a product that has fewer negatives.
If a product has flaws the company who made that product has only itself to blame for all the critique ar "bashing" as you call it.




> In my personal life, I have realized that since I am imperfect and want to be valued despite my myriad flaws, I must do the same with others. If a person has lots of good qualities, I must focus on those, This does not mean I turn a blind eye to the flaws and indeed if I deem the person to be open to them, as I try to be, I will suggest areas of possible growth. But at the end of the day, I focus on the positives and seek to surround myself with others who do the same.



With this i fully agree. But usually another human being isn't a product one buys from some company.



> I think we all need to remember that these companies and developers are human beings and the products are their babies. They work long and hard to develop them and have a pride of authorship. And so while they mostly are open to constructive critiques and requests, they are going to react negatively to ones they deem to be malicious or unfair and respond accordingly. it is simply human nature.



I am not quite surprised to read this, but it is still ridiculous.
I think we all need to remember that these companies are *not* human beings , and that the product are *not* babies.

Let me explain why i find this so ridiculous.

In my day job i lead and train poeple who provide customer service and technical support.
Part of that is giving critique of their work and encourage improvement. 
What you wrote about how you deal with other people absolutely applies here, focus on the positives, deal with the negatives by suggesting ways of improvement.

But never would anyone at my company in their right mind (and we are in germany, the land of minimal customer service) expect the same behaviour from our customers. Its not their job to be fair, or just, or give a balanced account of their customer experience. 
They are not hired to give an accurate assessment of the quality of our product, nor do they have an obligation to accurately inform their readers or viewers.

*They friggin pay us, we owe them, we have to deliver. * 
If we fail to do that we can consider ourselfes lucky if they give us even the slighest chance to fix things. And they sure as hell have the right to complain.

Just imagine you have a problem with your new car.
You inform the car dealer of your problem and he disregards you genuine complaints as "bashing" because you failed to mention the positives about the car.
And when you insist that he fixes your problem he points out that he has other customers who don't have your problem therefore its your fault.
Would you really want to buy from that dealer again?


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## Ashermusic (May 19, 2011)

uselessmind @ Thu May 19 said:


> Ashermusic @ Thu May 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Bashing to me is the constant looking for negatives to write about a company or library (or successful composer for that matter) while downplaying the positives.
> ...



I believe you treat ALL people, and yes companies are only groups of people, as you want to be treated.


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## NYC Composer (May 20, 2011)

EW tend to be the lightning rod around here. That's what happens when you take a leadership role in any industry, even more so when you're not, er, acclaimed for your temperate and timely customer support.

I don't think honest assessments based on personal experience are 'bashing' unless they are rudely stated. There's a difference between direct and rude, and I try not to be rude. I'm sure I slip over the line occasionally. Some make no distinction. In any case, I prefer when people try to be even-handed, at the least.

The title of the forum in question is not "In Praise Of". It's "Sample Talk", denoting discussion, which usually includes differing opinions and a certain amount of debate. I'm good with that.


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## José Herring (May 20, 2011)

It's funny that people keep mentioning EW customer support as being horrendous. The two experiences I've had with their support team were stellar imo. They hung in there with me on one occasion for 2 hours trying to resolve a problem I was having with the NI Version of choirs and Protools. So I don't really get why people think it's so bad.


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## TheUnfinished (May 20, 2011)

josejherring @ Fri May 20 said:


> It's funny that people keep mentioning EW customer support as being horrendous. The two experiences I've had with their support team were stellar imo. They hung in there with me on one occasion for 2 hours trying to resolve a problem I was having with the NI Version of choirs and Protools. So I don't really get why people think it's so bad.


That would be their phone support though, yes?

In a global market, 2 hours on the phone to another country isn't always an option! But I hear what you're saying.


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