# Symphonic Tone Poem "Saint Vladimir" Comments Appreciated



## Paul T McGraw (Dec 27, 2017)

This piece tells the story of Saint Vladimir and his wife Princess Anna who brought Christianity to Russia in the 10th century. It is a very dramatic and epic story. A condensed version of the tale is on page 2 of the score, which is attached.

I used VSL for the woodwinds, half VSL and half Berlin Brass for the brass, VSL percussion, and VSL Orchestral Strings doubled with Cinematic Studio Strings. The spatialization for the VSL instruments is MIR Pro Teldex (to match the Berlin Brass).

Comments good or bad are appreciated.


----------



## Silence-is-Golden (Dec 28, 2017)

My guess is that you enjoyed creating this symphony very much? As an overal sense it sounds very lively to me and has a very positive pleasant feeling. I gladly listened to the whole composition. (Suggestive: if it would be a newly found piece of an unknown composer it would fit right in the erea of Tchaikovsky and consorts for me)

On the more "technical side" it sounds like a well orchestrated and well composed piece of music. I am not professionally trained in all the classical orchestration rules and guidelines but it comes across to me as you adhered much to the classical methods, forms, modulations, etc.

Midi mockup to me may need some more considerations:
- Overall the balances of sections instruments seem good, nonetheless to me at times instruments like f.e. the celesta at roughly 1/3 of the piece ( no time reference as yet in orfium?) seems too loud or up front.
- since you use half VSL, half BB I don't know which is which in your piece, but mainly the brass seems to sound too "mechanical" or "not real enough" in my ears. (Do you layer them, or use them side by side?)
- maybe because most of us here at vi-c are aware that we use samples, but for me I would pick this piece out clearly as a sample based orchestral piece. Maybe you can pour some "mojo"  over it by listening to other examples out here that have created the illusion of a "real" orchestra.
- one overal "glue-ing" reverb may also bring it together more, and if you already use that, to me the orchestra is not yet all in one room or hall.

These would be my current comments. But as a whole: lovely composition and well done orchestration!

PS: You are also on Orfium clearly. So far my earlier tries have not succeeded in putting an orfium link here. Did it work out easlily to put the link here in your post?


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Dec 28, 2017)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> My guess is that you enjoyed creating this symphony very much? As an overal sense it sounds very lively to me and has a very positive pleasant feeling. I gladly listened to the whole composition. (Suggestive: if it would be a newly found piece of an unknown composer it would fit right in the erea of Tchaikovsky and consorts for me)
> 
> On the more "technical side" it sounds like a well orchestrated and well composed piece of music. I am not professionally trained in all the classical orchestration rules and guidelines but it comes across to me as you adhered much to the classical methods, forms, modulations, etc.
> 
> ...



Thank you for all of your comments, and for listening all the way through. You are correct that I made the decision a few years ago to focus my style on the late romantic aesthetic. Tchaikovsky, Dvorak, and Bruckner are my most cherished musical influences.

Regarding the specific comments, there is no celeste, but I am sure you are referring to the Glockenspiel which has a similar bell-like quality, being made up of metal bars like the celeste. The glock can be quite loud, louder than a celeste, and it is difficult for me to determine exact balance.

Each brass instrument has an individual line, none are layered and I used no section samples. The first trumpet is Berlin Brass, the Second trumpet is VSL. Two of the horns are Berlin Brass, two are VSL. The first trombone (voice of Vladimir) is VSL, the other bones are Berlin Brass as is the Tuba. Since each instrument has its own track and lots and lots of CC data in every measure, I'm not sure how I could improve the brass, but I will definitely keep this in mind.

I wish I did have some mojo to improve the sound and make it seem more real and less like samples. This has been an area of constant study for me for several years now. It is a constantly fascinating challenge. 

I used the VSL "Miracle" on the final mix as a "glue" which is an analog reverb. I have also tried Valhalla, VSS3, QL Spaces, and others, but I personally like the color of Miracle in combination with the convolution reverb.

Thank you for listening and for the detailed comments!


----------



## Kas (Dec 28, 2017)

Since this kind of music is exactly my cup of tea, I have to say that I really enjoyed it. I can never really warm up to the sound of VSL strings but I liked your brass sound. The composition is great with a sense of drama and grandeur but I would have preffered it to be a little more adventurous harmonically. A small thing that bothered me is the section from meter 96 to 132 which seems to be the climax of the whole piece, I found it to be a little tame and empty, I would have preferred it to be denser with more contrapuntal lines and louder in dynamics, thus creating a more intense juxtaposition with the following calmer finale section which, by the way, is splendid. Overall, bravo a great job. Happy holidays and a merry new year!


----------



## conan (Dec 29, 2017)

I really like it. It was engaging and held my attention all the way to the end. Maybe the sense of realism would be enhanced if it were a tad more wet, but it sounds very good.


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Dec 30, 2017)

Thank you @Kas for listening. The strings are a 50//50 doubling of VSL Orchestral Strings and Cinematic Studio Strings. I also own Spitfire Symphonic Strings and Cinestrings by Cinesamples. I have yet to find a string library that does not disappoint me in some way or another. But the VSL/CSS combo is the best I have come up with so far. 

The issue of dynamic range is an interesting issue. Greater contrast is easily obtainable, but then when the music gets soft, some might complain that it gets too quiet. I have been a classical music lover all of my life. When I was young, I really got a kick out of the wide dynamic range of classical music. Now that I am older, I cannot tolerate the wider extremes very well. This particular section gave me a lot of trouble. I rewrote the section many times. But I hear your critique and value the feedback.

I also really love the finale section based on the old, old Russian hymn, "Praise the Lord" from the Obikhod. Then concluding with the final Imaj7 to IV to I progression actually moves me to tears when I listen, even though I wrote it. Weird, but true. Thank you for listening and for your comments good and bad.


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Dec 30, 2017)

conan said:


> I really like it. It was engaging and held my attention all the way to the end. Maybe the sense of realism would be enhanced if it were a tad more wet, but it sounds very good.



Thank you @conan for listening and for the comments. Sorry about the "wetness" issue. I have also had some messages on another forum telling me it is too "wet" which I suppose just proves that lots of mixing decisions are simply a matter of taste. Thank you for listening!


----------



## ism (Dec 30, 2017)

lovely!


----------



## markleake (Jan 1, 2018)

Hi Paul, I really liked this. It's impressive work. I do find the string dynamics a bit flat and unexpressive - they are really not my favourite sound, personally speaking. Plus some of the brass near the start sounds a bit soft and saxophony (this is what I noticed first as marking it clearly as a mockup), by which I mean the limits of the samples are showing maybe, or there is something in the mixing that gives it a less clear sound. A lot of the mix has that same kind of "soft/fuzzy" tone, so maybe it is just me not used to how you mix. On the orchestration, sometimes I find it predictable in the sense that no interesting theme stands out to me even though it ticks all the right boxes. I think this is hard to do when writing this style of music, as you are concentrating on the orchestration maybe more than the driving theme? Or its just how this style works? Anyway, who am I to comment, it is far beyond what I could achieve, and very enjoyable listening.


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jan 4, 2018)

Thanks, @ism .

@markleake you made some very interesting comments. I do try for a mix that will sound as if the listener is on row 8 of a symphonic hall. This is typical for a classical recording, but film music is usually recorded much more "up front" as in a recording studio. Not sure if this is what you are talking about, but perhaps it is. I think the brass samples are the best I can find, Berlin Brass and VSL. I have purchased lots of different brass libraries, but these sound the most realistic to me. But perhaps it is just a matter of taste.

More interesting to me are your comments regarding the thematic material. You are the second person who commented on the themes not being good enough. I am disappointed by that reaction. All I can do is try to do better next time I suppose. Thanks for all of your comments and for the feedback. It really helps.


----------



## Robo Rivard (Jan 4, 2018)

This is remarkable!


----------



## ism (Jan 4, 2018)

Hmm, I quite liked the themes, and more to the point they did everything they needed to in the overall romantic ethos of the piece, which for me is the point of such a work. 

If I had any criticism, then I suppose it would be I'd like more reverb, which for me would, I think, add to the romanticism of the piece. And perhaps also mitigate some of the issues I have ( in general, not with this piece in particular ) with VSL. Which is of course hugely subjective. I do respect that VSL is as state of the art as anything, but there's just some about the too-pristine VSL sound that sometimes makes my want to either try to blur out the too-pristine qualities our with more reverb (or, in practice, switch to Spitfire). 

I suspect that better trained musicians than myself are better able to absorb precision and detail on a number of levels, as compared to my appreciating such a work in such vague and blurry qualities as "romantic ethos". So maybe this is more a preference that critique. 

That said, there are passages - for instance that softer bit towards the end with just the winds and strings - that are quite wonderful, wholly convincing, and speak to the kind of music I aspire to write myself.

Again, lovely piece. Thanks!


----------



## SGordB (Jan 4, 2018)

Paul T McGraw said:


> Then concluding with the final Imaj7 to IV to I progression actually moves me to tears when I listen, even though I wrote it. Weird, but true.


Not weird at all, because that makes at least two of us when it comes to our best work - the stuff we really put our soul into. Count me among all the others who very happilly went along for the ride your music took us on. It reminded me not so much of the late romantics as the great romantic film composers of the 40s and 50s. It's a really refreshing break from the "epic" cliches of today.


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jan 5, 2018)

@Robo Rivard thank you!

@ism thank you so much for the comments. The reverb question always keeps me guessing. Enough? Too little? I wish I had the perfect answer. Regarding VSL, no subject on VI-C seems to create as much controversy. I like most of the VSL instruments but I realize many people just do not like the sound. I own Spitfire and Orchestral Tools and I think I will try all Spitfire on my next piece. The problem I have with using all OT is the string sections are too small for a convincing classical sound. But it would by interesting to try using all Spitfire, just for fun. Thanks for the kind words, and I am really glad that some of the piece was relevant for you. It took me about two years of solid work to absorb the late romantic ethos. I could not have written this without those two years of work. I'm glad I did it. I recommend to anyone who wants to compose, just get started. Do it every day and have fun with it.


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jan 5, 2018)

SGordB said:


> Not weird at all, because that makes at least two of us when it comes to our best work - the stuff we really put our soul into. Count me among all the others who very happilly went along for the ride your music took us on. It reminded me not so much of the late romantics as the great romantic film composers of the 40s and 50s. It's a really refreshing break from the "epic" cliches of today.



Thanks @SGordB for the comments. If I can sound like the romantic film composers of the 40s and 50s, Korngold, Herman, Rozsa, et al I am thrilled. I love that sound. Thank you!


----------



## Dave Connor (Jan 5, 2018)

Very nice Paul! 

The only thing that seems to be prohibitively weak as far as understanding the piece is the brass. I think almost any other brass library (or a careful retooling and changing out of vsl with other vsl brass samples) would bring the mockup up in quality by a considerable margin. 

In any case it's nice to ear some of your music which is very well written and and very distinctive. Enjoyed it very much!


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jan 5, 2018)

Dave Connor said:


> Very nice Paul!
> 
> The only thing that seems to be prohibitively weak as far as understanding the piece is the brass. I think almost any other brass library (or a careful retooling and changing out of vsl with other vsl brass samples) would bring the mockup up in quality by a considerable margin.
> 
> In any case it's nice to ear some of your music which is very well written and and very distinctive. Enjoyed it very much!



Thank you for listening and commenting. What brass library do you recommend? Your opinion would be appreciated on the trumpet and trombone. After the introduction, there is an eight-bar trombone solo, followed by an eight-bar trumpet solo. Do you find both the trombone and the trumpet unappealing, or is one better than the other?

Thanks for your all of your comments. Glad you liked the writing.


----------



## Dave Connor (Jan 5, 2018)

It's the brass chords mainly although the solo brass (trumpet in particular) also could use some help: the chords are real deal breakers though. The VSL solo trombone is pretty good with it's legato (for certain things.) 

I think Hollywood Brass would give you quite a bang for the buck. They're dryer than most so you could blend them with VSL easily in the same reverb VSL is in. (I have VSL Brass but generally don't use anymore.) On my soundcloud page "Quantum" has lots of Hollywood Brass throughout and is a fair example (particularly starting at 3:55.)


----------



## SGordB (Jan 5, 2018)

Paul T McGraw said:


> Thanks @SGordB for the comments. If I can sound like the romantic film composers of the 40s and 50s, Korngold, Herman, Rozsa, et al I am thrilled. I love that sound. Thank you!


Did someone say Rozsa? I can't resist:  His score for the Private Life of Sherlock Holmes - borrowed from his violin concerto - was a star in its own right of the best Sherlock Holmes movie ever. That sultry, moody, schmaltzy (in the best possible way) violin became a leitmotif for Holmes's repressed sexuality and romanticism.

Edit: It's the "lento" movement I meant to share:


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jan 5, 2018)

I love that concerto. And almost all of his work. But I have to admit to a certain guilty pleasure and special fondness in my heart for this one.


----------



## SGordB (Jan 5, 2018)

Paul T McGraw said:


> I love that concerto. And almost all of his work. But I have to admit to a certain guilty pleasure and special fondness in my heart for this one.



Yeah - romance and swashbuckling, the old Hollywood way. Bred in the bone for many of us (Steve Martin, included, obviously)


----------



## Rodney Money (Jan 9, 2018)

Hello my friend, @Paul T McGraw

EDIT: My last part is too dang slow. I think I was feeling way too romantic there, lol, and simply enjoying the moment milking every second.

I won't go into detail right now until you want me to, but I played around with your music and did some short melodic clips of various sections. If you like anything you hear feel free to ask questions concerning samples and the renderings. If you hear nothing you care for, no comments or questions needed, no biggie.

Thank you for sharing your wonderful music with us!

Uncompressed WAV: https://app.box.com/s/tm77vmnlq5xy6fijtafs0e8j1cs4cygp


----------



## Darren Durann (Jan 9, 2018)

Dave Connor said:


> Very nice Paul!
> 
> The only thing that seems to be prohibitively weak as far as understanding the piece is the brass. I think almost any other brass library (or a careful retooling and changing out of vsl with other vsl brass samples) would bring the mockup up in quality by a considerable margin.
> 
> In any case it's nice to ear some of your music which is very well written and and very distinctive. Enjoyed it very much!



Really like the music, and it was refreshing to NOT hear brass squished to the point of bloodlessness. Let 'em ring I say!

I too feel that something like Hollywood Brass or one of the drier SF libraries might work a lot better. Unless you want to put a touch of compression on there (as you know, it's a tricky path to go down when it comes to using compression and limiting in an orchestral piece).

However, overall a hearty congrats! Good stuff.


----------



## Darren Durann (Jan 9, 2018)

As far as Rozsa goes...if you're big into Rozsa and Bruckner, then I'm always going to give your music a listen my friend. Only Bernard's work equals my estimation of Miklos' (with Alfred Newman not far behind at all).


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jan 9, 2018)

@Rodney Money thanks for all of your effort. I enjoyed hearing the music with a different interpretation. As a composer, I hope that my musical ideas are translatable into different expressions to fit the musician, and that seemed to be true in this case. 

I really, really enjoyed your trumpet solo. Sounded great, and the expressiveness although a bit over the top for my personal aesthetic, seemed to work out really well. I assume it was Cinebrass, which I own, but haven't used for at least a year. Thank you for taking the time to do this and sharing your interpretations. Very exciting to hear!


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jan 9, 2018)

@Darren Durann thanks for your comments. As a former brass player (trombone) and someone who loves the sound of brass, I am going to have to work on my brass. Several folks seem to think other options would work better than my VSL and Berlin Brass. I am going to have to look into that! 

I truly love Rozsa's music, and have done so as long as I can remember. "Ben Hur", "El Cid", or the "Golden Voyage of Sinbad" still thrill me when I listen to the soundtracks.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Jan 9, 2018)

Know the work already for a while. But I listened to it today again. Great work, I love that you really manage to bring in some late romantic touch but also at the same time some modern 20th century flair. I like it a lot.


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jan 9, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Know the work already for a while. But I listened to it today again. Great work, I love that you really manage to bring in some late romantic touch but also at the same time some modern 20th century flair. I like it a lot.



Hi Alexander, really appreciate your listening. It seems several folks don't like my brass sound. I am going to have to work on it and see if I can improve. Since I primarily write divis for the brass, as opposed to unison by section, my options are somewhat limited. I think as a composer I need to try to simplify my textures, at least part of the time, and try to improve my mixing to get a clearer sound. Any suggestions?


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Jan 9, 2018)

Paul T McGraw said:


> Hi Alexander, really appreciate your listening. It seems several folks don't like my brass sound. I am going to have to work on it and see if I can improve. Since I primarily write divis for the brass, as opposed to unison by section, my options are somewhat limited. I think as a composer I need to try to simplify my textures, at least part of the time, and try to improve my mixing to get a clearer sound. Any suggestions?



Actually I think that the people doesnt enjoy the sound of the brass because it has a few things like: 
1. It sounds bit sterile from its room for me
2. Sometimes I noticed that there are issue with the Z Depth, I noticed that at some spots with your French Horns that they seem to be to close in relation to the rest. (Are the horns from VSL?)
3. The spatialisation in the stereofield isn´t clear. The brass fills the space all over the place as how I perceive it.

You said you worked with VSL and with Berlin Brass. Now..VSL is dry and you said you used MIR with Teldex to match Berlin Brass Settings. Can you maybe outbounce just the brass stems? There is in general imo a little things still to do with Z Depth as I can´t make out what comes first here. Normal I would put in Z Depth like in this Order: 
Strings
Woods
Brass
Percussion

So...actually for me some of the stuff sounds coming from one virtual Distance which I think could be the pinpoint problem of your mix.


----------



## Darren Durann (Jan 9, 2018)

Paul T McGraw said:


> @Darren Durann thanks for your comments. As a former brass player (trombone) and someone who loves the sound of brass, I am going to have to work on my brass. Several folks seem to think other options would work better than my VSL and Berlin Brass. I am going to have to look into that!
> 
> I truly love Rozsa's music, and have done so as long as I can remember. "Ben Hur", "El Cid", or the "Golden Voyage of Sinbad" still thrill me when I listen to the soundtracks.



You know Paul, I might have to take some of what I wrote back. I didn't know you worked with Berlin Brass, and I've heard some really good things about it from friends. I don't want to say "gee Paul, maybe you should jump aboard the EW train", especially when you have something that is apparently really good.

As for Rozsa, I love his music. And I had to start an appreciation thread for him.

Looking forward to more of your music in the future.


----------



## Rodney Money (Jan 10, 2018)

Hello Paul, just a few notes that I noticed concerning the sound and quest for realism.

Fast sections: make sure each percussion hit has it's own different velocity and feel free to be expressive with the cc with rises and falls leading us to the next measure, phrase, or section. I am sure you have different round robins going on but with percussion velocity is just as important making every hit sound organic avoiding the machine gun, too clean midi sound effect. Even with rolls, make the sound move like a pitcher's fast ball or the wind in a expressive euphonium player. I want you to experiment with layering libraries especially for your strings. You now have Spitfire, and I remember you saying you were almost in tears when you heard the celli, because for the first time in sample land you felt as though you were playing in a section again. Well use that! Try using Spitfire for the ambient hall string choir realistic environment effect and then layer VSL for detail with bow touching the string sounds. I would like for you also to experiment with layering different articulations over top of each other. Think of the staccatos and spiccatos in the string samples as accents layering over the top of longer notes adding some punch. Several times I see accents in the score, but I am not truly feeling them. You can do this with the brass and woodwinds also with layering their shorter notes over top of their longer notes. By layering you can trick the ear also for example my trumpet solo. Yes, it is the CineBrass Trumpet solo but it is secretly a mix of the Core and Pro where when I go into the lower dynamics you hear the vibrato of Core, but in the upper dynamics you hear the more brighter, strident sound of Pro. Then as the line raised higher at the end I added short eighth-notes to create the illusion of accents. I purposely went all the way up to its loudest dynamic just to show you the range of volume and timbre in the CineBrass trumpet, but to get that sound I did eq out the higher strident frequencies of the CineBrass Pro when it started to reach "jazz timbre." Be expressive with the accompaniment making it rise and fall like the ocean leading us to shore, for example with your 16th notes starting at measure 22in the violins and snare drum. You could do so much more with those little guys driving us forward creating momentum. Make sure your woodwind timbre is not watering down the sound causing organ syndrome, and make sure we hear definition and detail in the strings avoiding them simply sounding like a background wash or halo. Feel free to add a solo over top of the strings for layering to help in this. 

Slow sections: make sure the notes "kiss each other" and are constantly moving rising and falling. I have noticed that the big difference between samples and live playing is extreme dynamics. Even in your softer, slower sections feel free to start at the very lowest of the modwheel, then going all the way up for featured instruments. It won't sound like fff, especially for legato strings so go for it and try it out. First sing it out loud, then perform it through your rendering always telling a story through your music. If you have key sounds, noises, and clicks for the woodwinds feel free to try them out avoiding the sterile sound of the sample. A little imperfection is good and sounds more human. With brass the most realistic sounds in samples comes from the softs to about the 3/4's way up the mod-wheel. I would avoid the upper parts until there is a true ff, but try to orchestrate a ff instead of upper dynamics for the brass. That might be why your brass sounds bright and tingy reminiscent of drum corps instead of warm, rich, and full. Play around with cc11 also for crescendos especially in the brass. Feel free to play with more rubato. My favorite parts were the slight variations of changing tempos.

Hymn sections: With the trombone solo I would like to here more rise and fall and some natural vibrato near the tail in of the phrase. I would love for you to try playing the hymn section in live with no metronome. I know, scary right? This chordal section is very important that each note of the stacked chords do not line up on top of each other. Also, I would try to keep the brass warm throughout here avoiding anything over half-way on the modwheel with the exception at the end when it goes forte. (Feel free to crescendo over the top there concerning dynamics. At that forte I am hearing mostly trombone if memory serves me correct. We should hear the full tutti of the orchestra there with no instrument sticking out like a pipe organ with all the stops pulled out.) If you hear brightness in the brass during the softer sections though, you have went too far. Feel free to secretly layer warmer brass sounds here also like euphoniums and flugelhorns to mellow out the sound, or warmer full sections like CineBrass Core's trumpet ensemble or it's new legato trombones. You might want to consider a high eq cut as well. Even though not marked too much in the score, feel free to over do the legato transitions for slow, moving hymns. That's how we do it anyways playing in churches. Also maybe consider a slight rest between each phrase of the hymn similar to a pipe organ player playing with a choir. They would not make the sound continue there in real life.

Those are just some raw notes off the top of my head, Paul. Great job on a wonderful piece once again!

@Paul T McGraw


----------

