# Virtual Sound Stage 2. Who is using it?



## jononotbono

I'm quite intrigued by VSS 2. Is anyone using it? Does it really help with Positioning of Instruments? I qualify for a Student Discount if I bought it which makes it affordable for me and I am delighted to see that quite a few of my Libraries are listed in the Presets and I'm just wondering if it's worth buying. Even if it get's me in the right ballpark of where Instruments should be placed to begin with so I can learn placement.

Thanks

Jono


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## Hannes_F

I am using it, but more in the sense of a panning tool for many instruments. I regularly reduce the dry/wet ratio to 100:30 and use the open field setting. Otherwise the early reflections are too much for me.

Also, VSS2 lacks bass and treble rolloff for creating distance. It seems to use treble reduction that is modeled after frequency absorption in air, but that is not the full truth. Next time you try to understand the text of an opera singer on the stage you'll realize that in real venues there is very much bass and treble loss even after a few meters. EAReverb2 emulates that very well but not VSS2.

Still, in case you use a huge number of (dry) sources VSS2 can be very effective for manipulating the panning information.


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## jononotbono

Thank you for a great answer. I haven't heard of EARverb2 so will have a little look at that as well. I know people talk about about Spat but I don't know who makes that and people have commented on it being Expensive. 


For Music that uses a lot of Electronic Elements with Orchestral Instruments, how do you use VSS 2? I mean, I'm new to this but I am imagining how to seamlessly blend the two Worlds and where things should be panned in relation to Orchestral Instruments. It feels like once the positioning of the Orchestral Instruments is set then the rules are out of the Window and imagination is key to making the Electronic elements work with the Orchestral Instruments. 

I have a few Modules in my MA coming up which is going to be writing mixed stuff so I'm intrigued and trying to do a bit of pre experimentation!

Thanks!


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## dan1

jononotbono said:


> Spat but I don't know who makes that



http://www.fluxhome.com/products/plug_ins/ircam_spat-v3


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## IoannisGutevas

I agree with Hannes, you wont find a better panning tool than VSS 2. You just scroll down where vss has the "rooms" at the upper right corner and you will see a "Free Field". When you select that VSS 2 acts like a panning tool only. I always keep it as an insert on my tracks and then you can use a send to adjust to the reverb you want.


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## Øivind

I use VSS2 on most of my orchestral libraries, except Spitfire stuffs. Great for positioning and blending different libraries. Haven't used it much on electronic stuffs tho.

It's pretty sweet that VSS2 has a global GUI, so if you have 20 instruments running their own instance of VSS2, you will see and be able to edit all the instruments positions and settings from any one of the 20 instances of VSS2. (the alternatives probably has a similar feature, but it sure is sweet  It also has a very low CPU footprint as far as i can tell. Lastly, the price is very nice, at least compared to MIR and SPAT.

It also has a fully working Trial, you just can't save the things you do inside VSS2.


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## jononotbono

IoannisGutevas said:


> I agree with Hannes, you wont find a better panning tool than VSS 2. You just scroll down where vss has the "rooms" at the upper right corner and you will see a "Free Field". When you select that VSS 2 acts like a panning tool only. I always keep it as an insert on my tracks and then you can use a send to adjust to the reverb you want.



It's posts like this that are very persuasive! I'm going to try it out! Thanks!


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## jononotbono

oivind_rosvold said:


> I use VSS2 on most of my orchestral libraries, except Spitfire stuffs. Great for positioning and blending different libraries. Haven't used it much on electronic stuffs tho.
> 
> It's pretty sweet that VSS2 has a global GUI, so if you have 20 instruments running their own instance of VSS2, you will see and be able to edit all the instruments positions and settings from any one of the 20 instances of VSS2. (the alternatives probably has a similar feature, but it sure is sweet  It also has a very low CPU footprint as far as i can tell. Lastly, the price is very nice, at least compared to MIR and SPAT.
> 
> It also has a fully working Trial, you just can't save the things you do inside VSS2.



Sold. Brilliant! Thanks!


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## tack

When EAReverb2 was released, I switched away from VSS2 because to my ears EAReverb2 simulated more convincing rooms. I'd definitely encourage you to try the demo and see if you like it.

SPAT is of course a beast, but who can afford it. 

But if you really do just need a panning tool and it's less about room simulation, I agree with the others that VSS2's UI is excellent for this purpose.


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## jononotbono

tack said:


> When EAReverb2 was released, I switched away from VSS2 because to my ears EAReverb2 simulated more convincing rooms. I'd definitely encourage you to try the demo and see if you like it.
> 
> SPAT is of course a beast, but who can afford it.



I'll definitely check it out. Spat is way beyond my Price Range. I'm sure it's amazing though! I could only ever warrant that kind of thing if I was earning solely from Music and needed it. I think one thing at a time and start with something a little more realistic. I think VSS2 is about £100 with Student discount so I think that is very worth the money. Less than a Guitar Pedal


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## Baron Greuner

I might be using it. And then again I might not. Can't say anymore than that.


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## jononotbono

Baron Greuner said:


> I might be using it. And then again I might not. Can't say anymore than that.



I can't tell whether you typed that.


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## airflamesred

+1 on EAReverb2 - As simple or complex as you wish.


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## Michael K. Bain

IoannisGutevas said:


> I agree with Hannes, you wont find a better panning tool than VSS 2. You just scroll down where vss has the "rooms" at the upper right corner and you will see a "Free Field". When you select that VSS 2 acts like a panning tool only. I always keep it as an insert on my tracks and then you can use a send to adjust to the reverb you want.


That's exactly how I use it, as well. I love it.


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## milesito

Does it sound better as a panning tool than as a richest an orchestral depth and panning field placement tool? Also why not just use the panning tool in my daw? What is the difference? and how does that compare to the fact that bww and cinebrass and easy west Hollywood strings and Hollywood brass are recorded in place?


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## IoannisGutevas

milesito said:


> Does it sound better as a panning tool than as a richest an orchestral depth and panning field placement tool? Also why not just use the panning tool in my daw? What is the difference? and how does that compare to the fact that bww and cinebrass and easy west Hollywood strings and Hollywood brass are recorded in place?



Im not sure what you say when you say in your 1st question cause when you use it as a panner you can add depth and pan also. Its a "3d panner" which makes it far better than the standar left/right panner in daws.

Also having a reverb as a send you can fine tune the placement and reverb of each instrument and glue them better together.

Each VST is recorded in a "fixed" place. But in a mix you might want to use different mics (if the virtual instrument you use them provides them of course), but you might want them a little bit more to the left or more to the front for example. Positioning each instrument combining the panning of VSS2 , the send effect reverb volume and the mics of each vst instrument are imo the best way to fine tune the placement in your mix.


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## re-peat

You happen to have an example of all this, Ioannis? (Or anyone else?) A mock-orchestral mix (or fragment of a mix, or just a handful of virtual instruments) spatialized entirely with VSS2, I mean. A good-sounding example of VSS2 doing what it does best. Cause, while there is no shortage of people raving about VSS2, there certainly is a big and somewhat suspicious shortage of audio examples which substantiate any of that enthusiasm.

Me, I’ve never heard VSS(2) do anything which I thought sounded good. (Very much the contrary, in fact.) Not saying it isn’t possible — and the opinion of someone like Hannes is not an opinion to be dismissed lightly — but just once, I’d love to hear VSS2 in action in such a way that it makes me put my thusfar unchallenged dislike for this software to rest.

Thanks in advance!

_


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## IoannisGutevas

All my mixes are done the way i described above.

Here is my latest track :



All mixing done with VSS2. I dont know if this can convince you as a good mix but its the only track that i can tell you with 100% honesty that its mixed this way. 

Also if you want you can check all my tracks they are done the same way. The reason i posted the latest here is cause i think that with each one i become better in mixing and composing. Anyway i digress. 

Hope i helped!


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## Zelorkq

I've had my share of experience with VSS2 (demo only but it has all the features) and VSL MIR Pro plus a few VI-C threads :D
VSS2: definitely a great tool with nice features, easy to use and resource-friendly algorithms! I personally didn't like the sound, positioning, depth and IRs that much so I didn't buy it. I get better results doing everything by hand (panning, delay and distancing + eq)


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## Mystic

So if I was going to use VSS2 as strictly a panning tool, is there any point in getting VSS2 Pro? How well does it play with Spaces?


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## Michael K. Bain

IoannisGutevas said:


> All my mixes are done the way i described above.
> 
> Here is my latest track :
> 
> 
> 
> All mixing done with VSS2. I dont know if this can convince you as a good mix but its the only track that i can tell you with 100% honesty that its mixed this way.
> 
> Also if you want you can check all my tracks they are done the same way. The reason i posted the latest here is cause i think that with each one i become better in mixing and composing. Anyway i digress.
> 
> Hope i helped!



Nice track, and sounds like good depth to me.


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## Hannes_F

re-peat said:


> You happen to have an example of all this, Ioannis? (Or anyone else?)



Thanks Piet for your friendly words but I am struggling with quality and mixing like most others, too, always in search for something better.

I have used VSS2 about two years for spacing my multitrack (live) string recordings as can be seen in the screenshot, however not without running the results through other reverbs like EAReverb2 and LX480. One example is the recording of "Sunrise" that I did for Levan Basharuli last year (only the strings are mine, the rest is samples but I don't know which). Certainly there could be done more with the mix but this was what I was able to achieve.

I recently exchanged VSS2 for about 160 instances of Waves S1 in search for a possible increase in quality but the tests are still running.

Hope that helps, Hannes
http://www.strings-on-demand.com/demos/HF_Basharuli_Sunrise_20160307a3.mp3


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## IoannisGutevas

Michael K. Bain said:


> Nice track, and sounds like good depth to me.



Thank you Michael, im glad you liked it!


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## germancomponist

Hannes_F said:


> Thanks Piet for your friendly words but I am struggling with quality and mixing like most others, too, always in search for something better.
> 
> I have used VSS2 about two years for spacing my multitrack (live) string recordings as can be seen in the screenshot, however not without running the results through other reverbs like EAReverb2 and LX480. One example is the recording of "Sunrise" that I did for Levan Basharuli last year (only the strings are mine, the rest is samples but I don't know which). Certainly there could be done more with the mix but this was what I was able to achieve.
> 
> I recently exchanged VSS2 for about 160 instances of Waves S1 in search for a possible increase in quality but the tests are still running.
> 
> Hope that helps, Hannes
> http://www.strings-on-demand.com/demos/HF_Basharuli_Sunrise_20160307a3.mp3


Where has all the dynamic gone, Hannes? Did u use a compressor here?
Nice playing, btw.!


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Hannes_F said:


> Thanks Piet for your friendly words but I am struggling with quality and mixing like most others, too, always in search for something better.
> 
> I have used VSS2 about two years for spacing my multitrack (live) string recordings as can be seen in the screenshot, however not without running the results through other reverbs like EAReverb2 and LX480. One example is the recording of "Sunrise" that I did for Levan Basharuli last year (only the strings are mine, the rest is samples but I don't know which). Certainly there could be done more with the mix but this was what I was able to achieve.
> 
> I recently exchanged VSS2 for about 160 instances of Waves S1 in search for a possible increase in quality but the tests are still running.
> 
> Hope that helps, Hannes
> http://www.strings-on-demand.com/demos/HF_Basharuli_Sunrise_20160307a3.mp3




Nice piece, Hannes. And good dynamics, so no worries.


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## Hannes_F

germancomponist said:


> Where has all the dynamic gone, Hannes? Did u use a compressor here?
> Nice playing, btw.!


Gunther, you probably know the original version then? In hindsight I thought it was perhaps a bit over the top in terms of dynamics, so I evened it in by about 4 dB (per hand).


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## germancomponist

Hannes_F said:


> Gunther, you probably know the original version then? In hindsight I thought it was perhaps a bit over the top in terms of dynamics, so I evened it in by about 4 dB (per hand).


Hm, for my taste, it was not. I liked it!


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## Hannes_F

With original dynamics for Gunther:
http://www.strings-on-demand.com/demos/HF_Basharuli_Sunrise_20160307b2.mp3

If you like this better then it is a classical case of "verschlimmbessern" (making it better - NOT ... I am notorical for that). 

Back to VSS2: In such projects it is very handy because of the low CPU tax despite > 150 instances, ~ 0.1 % CPU each. Still you have a good overview on the stage setup and can alter the mic position in hindsight. At some point VSS2 was really the only way to get to this sort of result for me.


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## marclawsonmusic

Hannes_F said:


> With original dynamics for Gunther:
> http://www.strings-on-demand.com/demos/HF_Basharuli_Sunrise_20160307b2.mp3
> 
> If you like this better then it is a classical case of "verschlimmbessern" (I am notorical for that).


That is a lovely piece of music!


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## germancomponist

Much better, Hannes! (If you ask me) What 4 db can do ..... .


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## Hannes_F

germancomponist said:


> Much better, Hannes! (If you ask me) What 4 db can do ..... .


Good catch Gunther, my compliments.

@marclawsonmusic, @AlexanderSchiborr: thanks, the credit goes to Levan Basharuli who wrote it.


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## milesito

Wow...Hannes, amazing piece. Thanks for sharing.


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## re-peat

Ioannis,
Hannes,

Thanks.

_


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## rayinstirling

Hannes,
Thanks for this fascinating insight into how you get things done. Levan is lucky to have you do this for him.
I did note the minus correlation most of the way through and a feeling of a hole in the middle of the image but maybe that's the limitations of my monitoring system.

Thanks for sharing and yes, everyone should add at least some 'real' in with the 'virtual' for successful believable recordings.

Ray


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## jononotbono

Hannes, thanks for sharing that! Lovely. 

I've slept on it. Sod it. I am going to buy VSS2. First thought, best thought and all that...


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## Hannes_F

rayinstirling said:


> Hannes,
> Thanks for this fascinating insight into how you get things done. Levan is lucky to have you do this for him.
> I did note the minus correlation most of the way through and a feeling of a hole in the middle of the image but maybe that's the limitations of my monitoring system.



Thanks jieff, re-piet, milesito, jononotbono and especially Ray: that dreaded 'hole in the middle' is something to watch out for of course, always. Usually the woodwinds help to fill it a bit but all I had was one stereo stem with the other instruments that were quite widely panned, so there was not much to do about them.

I had an idea that might be in the sense of this thread (and it will be the last time I post this track here, I promise  ): Here are just the strings, and all reverbs disabled, so what you hear is exclusively the work of VSS2. Please tell me whether you still hear a minus correlation or hole in the middle, I am very interested in this sort of information.

Caution, this is starch dry and much less shiny, only for expert's ears  :
http://www.strings-on-demand.com/demos/HF_Basharuli_Sunrise_20160307b3_stringsDRY.mp3


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## ReMoFuMu

Hannes_F said:


> Caution, this is starch dry and much less shiny, only for expert's ears  :
> http://www.strings-on-demand.com/demos/HF_Basharuli_Sunrise_20160307b3_stringsDRY.mp3



I could SEE minus correlation between around 30 and 50 seconds and at the end of this wonderful piece of music! 

I've used the HOFA IQ Analyser... 

I'm using also VSS2 and it makes specially the strings sometimes too wide. A workaround for me is, to prevend minus correlation using finally the free Fader & MS-Pan plugin from Hofa. In Hannes' example it was left 85 and right 85 and all was fine.

Btw: Hofa has also a free Goniometer & Korrelator plugin! https://hofa-plugins.de/en/plugins/4u/

Frank


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## Hannes_F

Excellent analysis and repair suggestion, Frank. (He sent a video of it to me that is very instructive). It helps a lot and maybe I can get VSS2 into playing more nicely right from the start with that, thanks again.


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## rayinstirling

Hannes, 'glad you feel you can move forward with VSS2 
The "less shiny" version does not have such a big hole in the middle but this poses the question, 'stereo reverberations'? Making it worse!
For me, the 'more' years that pass the 'more' I have come to the conclusion, 'less' is more. So I won't be using VSS2 anytime soon.
I would also like to give audio/video examples of my findings but I just can't find the time to work out how I get my hardware/software setup to produce them.
One day soon and maybe with some help from other PC and RME users already having the power, it'll happen.


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## muk

Hannes_F said:


> Excellent analysis and repair suggestion, Frank.



Frank and Hannes are you willing to share that video here? Or detailing what you do to prevent phase correlation issues with VSS2? Would be interesting to see how you deal with the problem.


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## jononotbono

Thanks for turning this into such an interesting thread! And Hannes, it's refreshing hearing examples from people that actually do create great sounding Music rather than just talk about how to make great sounding Music!


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## kfirpr

Vss will kill your instrument's depth and dynamic range use it with great caution.
I only use it on certain type of percussions when I dont mind making them "smaller" like in my latest cue:


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## Suganthan

I just found a new virtual room plugin which seems much more versatile and futuristic.

http://www.equilogy.com/?p=specifications

EDIT: The basic software package costs around 2400$, not money friendly.


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## ReMoFuMu

muk said:


> Frank and Hannes are you willing to share that video here? Or detailing what you do to prevent phase correlation issues with VSS2? Would be interesting to see how you deal with the problem.


I made a little picture, where you can see, what to do, if you want. I've tested not only VSS2. Some VSTi have minus correlation by default! You can check in this way single instruments, audiofiles or groups, master- and stereo outs. Difficult for me to say, what's right or wrong. Checking while mixing or maybe during mastering process the complete track?

Edit: Here's the direct link to the freeware:
https://hofa-plugins.de/en/plugins/4u/


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## Mystic

Suganthan said:


> I just found a new virtual room plugin which seems much more versatile and futuristic.
> 
> http://www.equilogy.com/?p=specifications
> 
> EDIT: The basic software package costs around 2400$, not money friendly.


That's comical. Another company charging way too much for a product. :\


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## jononotbono

$2400!!! Not in my life-time! Way too much. Half the appeal of VSS2 is it's affordability!


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## germancomponist

If you know how to use your eq's inside your reverb channels right and if you know how to use the wet and dry knobs e.t.c. right, then there is no need for such plugins .... . He he! Listen to old recordings!


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## Gunvor

Which plugin or technique would you suggest to achieve the following effect in the video below?

I'am looking at creating a 3D soundscapes combined with musical elements.


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## muk

Wavearts Panorama comes to mind. Other than than not many plugins unfortunately. Old Roland hardware with the RSS 3D Sound could do it, but I don't know whether that's still around. For similar effects you could try this technique:

http://audioundone.com/out_of_speakers


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## OleJoergensen

Hannes_F said:


> Thanks Piet for your friendly words but I am struggling with quality and mixing like most others, too, always in search for something better.
> 
> I have used VSS2 about two years for spacing my multitrack (live) string recordings as can be seen in the screenshot, however not without running the results through other reverbs like EAReverb2 and LX480. One example is the recording of "Sunrise" that I did for Levan Basharuli last year (only the strings are mine, the rest is samples but I don't know which). Certainly there could be done more with the mix but this was what I was able to achieve.
> 
> I recently exchanged VSS2 for about 160 instances of Waves S1 in search for a possible increase in quality but the tests are still running.
> 
> Hope that helps, Hannes
> http://www.strings-on-demand.com/demos/HF_Basharuli_Sunrise_20160307a3.mp3


Lovely composition!


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## Suganthan

Gunvor said:


> Which plugin or technique would you suggest to achieve the following effect in the video below?
> 
> I'am looking at creating a 3D soundscapes combined with musical elements.



Thats Binaural audio. Works only on headphones. To create the effect, there are handful of vsts out there both commercial and freewares.

Some of them from my db:
3D Bianural Spatializer by Dan Klingler
Space360
Binaural Simulator
binaural-vst-master


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## Gunvor

muk said:


> Wavearts Panorama comes to mind. Other than than not many plugins unfortunately. Old Roland hardware with the RSS 3D Sound could do it, but I don't know whether that's still around. For similar effects you could try this technique:
> 
> http://audioundone.com/out_of_speakers



Thank you for the suggestions.
That sounds exactly like what i was looking for.

I'am definitely looking for something that supports automation. And Panorama seems like the best choice sofar.





Suganthan said:


> Thats Binaural audio. Works only on headphones. To create the effect, there are handful of vsts out there both commercial and freewares.
> 
> Some of them from my db:
> 3D Bianural Spatializer by Dan Klingler
> Space360
> Binaural Simulator
> binaural-vst-master



Thank you for the suggestions, i will look into those alternatives aswell! =) 

Do you have any favorite in particular that stands out in terms of automation and just generally working with the plugin?


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## ChristopherDoucet

I used it myself until I went to 5.1. Still waiting on a surround version.


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## Suganthan

Gunvor said:


> Do you have any favorite in particular that stands out in terms of automation and just generally working with the plugin?


Nothing beats wavearts Panorama actually especially comparing interms of automation. However the stable one of them is "Binaural Simulator by Gregjazz"


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## SolarCell

oivind_rosvold said:


> I use VSS2 on most of my orchestral libraries, except Spitfire stuffs.



I know, old topic... I was wondering why you don't use it on Spitfire libraries?


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## jononotbono

SolarCell said:


> I know, old topic... I was wondering why you don't use it on Spitfire libraries?



Spitfire Libraries are recorded in seating position.

I use VSS2 fo electronic stuff mainly as when it comes to Orchestral VIs I tend to only use libraries recorded in a seating position. I used to use it for 8Dio Adagio Strings though.


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## SolarCell

jononotbono said:


> Spitfire Libraries are recorded in seating position.



In contrast to most other libraries, apparently...
Thanx for your response! I'm new to orchestral composing thing and still figuring out which libraries suits me best. A good thing though I was already leaning towards the SA libraries. Except the Berlin woodwinds


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## ceemusic

In case anyone here missed it this was updated to 2.0.1 back in May.


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## Øivind

SolarCell said:


> I know, old topic... I was wondering why you don't use it on Spitfire libraries?



VSS2 i feel, is best with dry sample libraries, like Sample Modeling, Audio Modeling, Lass and VSL etc.
More often than not (at least that is my impression), sample libraries are recorded as jononotbono mentioned seated and in an already great room, like Air for most Spitfire libraries.

Also, seems like the maker of VSS is up to something new.


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## N.Caffrey

What is he up to?


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## Øivind

Got a newsletter survey a while back, VSS3 was named in context with something bigger, but there was no other information.


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## garyhiebner

When you using these tools VSS2 or EaReverb2, do you use the close mic on your sample libraries with multiple mic positions and then use VSS2/EaReverb to impart the room and positioning onto the instrument? Suppose thats a way of getting multiple different instruments recorded in different rooms to gel together.


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