# Alan Meyerson: Haas Effect instead of panning



## composerboy (Jan 6, 2017)

In my Alan Meyerson mixing research I found him discussing the use of the Haas Effect instead of panning.

Here is what Alan recommends:

1. High strings delay right side by 10 ms

2. Low strings delay left side by 10 ms

3. High brass delay right side by 3 ms

4. Low brass delay left side by 3 ms

Has anyone tried this? I found it gives a nice transparency to the the spatialization.


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## Joe_D (Jan 6, 2017)

The problem to be aware of is that different libraries and different mic positions (for multi-mic-position VI's) are recorded in different ways (of course), and some of these ways will "play nicely" with the precedence (Haas) effect, while others may be mangled by it.

If a VI is recorded dry and mono (I think that some of Chris Hein's are, for instance), it will probably work well.

If a VI is recorded stereo (or with a multi-mic'ed array such as a Decca tree, or a Faulkner 4-mic phased array), as many are, then there are different stereo placement psychoacoustic effects that are built into the recording technique. Multi-mic setups may be broadly divided into the following three categories:

Coincident (the mics are at close to the same point in space, but are directional in their pickup pattern and pointed differently from each other) - XY, Blumlein, Mid-Side - these techniques rely primarily on level differences between the signal reaching the L and the R directional mics to create the sense of the stereo placement of a signal, since the mics are pointed in different directions and pick up sound much more strongly in a certain direction (or directions in a figure-8 mic). VI's recorded with these techniques may benefit for the Haas treatment. My sense is that if you push it too far, it may sound unnatural, but it can work if used tastefully.

Spaced (the mics are relatively far apart) - Omni AB and variants (Decca…), Faulker parallel figure-8 pair - since the mics are either omni or pointed parallel, there is very little level difference between the signal received by the mics. The sense of stereo placement is derived from the inherent time delay of the signal each mic receives. Using your Haas delay on these libraries is essentially duplicating and messing with whatever imaging is already present.

Mixed (the mics are at some distance apart, but are also directional and point in different directions) - ORTF, NOS, Faulkner 4-mic phased array - here both time delays and intensity (volume) differences work together to create the sense of stereo placement. Once again, by adding additional delay to one side, you are somewhat messing with the stereo information already encoded in the signal.

Note that in an acoustic space, the instrument's stereo placement is not only dictated by the sound directly emanating from the instrument, but also by discrete reflections coming off of the floor, side walls, and ceiling, the discrete early reflections that are the second, third (etc.) bounce of those sounds, and the reverb tail that blooms later. Each of those may contribute to time and level differences between the mics (depending on the mic setup). By delaying one channel, you could be "improving" the direct sound but skewing the early reflections in a confusing way, for instance. So, it's complicated.

However "if it sounds good, it is good," so experiment away and see what you come up with. I'm just letting you know that it might work well with some VI's or mic positions, and not with others.

FWIW - sound localization tools such as SPAT, VSS2, etc., will incorporate the Haas effect for you, as well as intensity differences....


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## AR (Jan 7, 2017)

Okay, that's how I do it...(or le's say..I took Alan Meyerson's trick a little further)

Let's take violins I section: I don't pan anything in Kontakt. Leave everything in <C> (don't wanna destroy the balanced recording). I use the Waves M360 Manager on the stereotrack, panning it to let's say -28° or more (Decca less, Wide mics more). I can choose with the "LR angle" whether to widen the mic position up a little bit or not. If I wanna make it very mono-ish (coming from the backrows), I use the "Width" and make it sound very small. (Often works good on Solo winds.) Then I use the stereodelay from Cubase using only the left side, panning it to the right and shutting the right delay side completely off. On the wide mics I sometime use the Waves Doubler2Stereo (shutting off the original source and leaving just the red and violett "bubbles"  on -> hard left/right panned) which makes it very very wide. You probably get a phantom "hole" in your center, but don't panic, hence you have the Decca's still there. Works better full sections recordings, where you have a spread descant and bass across the stereofield.


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## Symfoniq (Jan 7, 2017)

So does Alan not pan the signal at all? Or is the Haas effect an additional psychoacoustic effect on top of the panning?


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## robgb (Jan 7, 2017)

Maybe I'm crazy, but this all sounds needlessly complicated. I use close mics, pan as needed, put short convolution delays on every instrument via fx buses and an overall reverb on the output channel. Seems to work just fine.


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## AR (Jan 7, 2017)

Yes of course you can do that. But I need a score that doesn't sit in your face and battling the movie dialog. So I need sounds that are further away. And plugins like VSS or Altiverb won't do it. Plus when using close mics I only have a 2D sound. I love when certain instruments come from the backs. Like a snare, timpani or trumpet. That gives my orchestra a nice 3D touch that only Decca+Wide with Hall mics can deliver. Sry, forgot to mention, I mix in 5.1.


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## AR (Jan 7, 2017)

Symfoniq said:


> So does Alan not pan the signal at all? Or is the Haas effect an additional psychoacoustic effect on top of the panning?


Nope. Instruments, recordings are panned or situ (as they say). But to get a wider spread sound, you need a widening effect. Imagine: you sit on the right side of a theater and get just the celli and basses. the speaker closer to you has no signal information of any violins, cause you panned them so left, they simply disappear on the right channel.


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## guydoingmusic (Jan 7, 2017)

robgb said:


> Maybe I'm crazy, but this all sounds needlessly complicated. I use close mics, pan as needed, put short convolution delays on every instrument via fx buses and an overall reverb on the output channel. Seems to work just fine.


Definitely no wrong way to do anything. 

The Haas effect is a great way to get separation for things fighting each other in a mix. Especially in film where there's a lot going on in the center channel. But even on Stereo mixes for radio/iTunes/etc. - You can clear out space around the vocal, kick, snare, bass. 

Does every track need it? No. But it can do way more for your mix than just normal panning.


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## robgb (Jan 7, 2017)

guydoingmusic said:


> Definitely no wrong way to do anything.
> 
> The Haas effect is a great way to get separation for things fighting each other in a mix. Especially in film where there's a lot going on in the center channel. But even on Stereo mixes for radio/iTunes/etc. - You can clear out space around the vocal, kick, snare, bass.
> 
> Does every track need it? No. But it can do way more for your mix than just normal panning.


An interesting technique, but I usually use EQ notching to deal with things fighting each other in the mix. Go with what you know, I guess.


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## marclawsonmusic (Jan 7, 2017)

Using delays for panning works nicely. 

If you keep some of the original signal intact, it mirrors what you hear in a real room - the sound bouncing around a bit. Add some reverb, and you get a nice diffused sound that is pushed back and panned... without using any panning. 

PS - I agree this is not useful on audio that already has baked-in spatialization. But it works great for close-mic'd or mono sources.


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## guydoingmusic (Jan 7, 2017)

robgb said:


> An interesting technique, but I usually use EQ notching to deal with things fighting each other in the mix. Go with what you know, I guess.


same. But... try it. I think you'll really like what it does. It sometimes eliminates (not every time) the need to reach for an eq. When I finally started using it - I had that "aha!" moment of how many times I had heard mixing engineers say "you don't have to slap an eq on every channel".


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 7, 2017)

It's true - you can spend a lot of time tweaking regular amplitude-based panning, and then you turn your head a fraction of an inch and it all shifts.

The problem with delay-based panning is that it's not mono-compatible. If you're staying stereo, it works well.

However, for acoustic samples I'd rather use convolution early reflections to do that than simple delays, even if they're duplicating the ones on the recording. It just sounds better - thinking about it, probably for the exact reason that you're disguising the double early reflections.


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## ghandizilla (May 9, 2018)

Don't know if that helps, but with wet libraries, I just use mid-side panning, while for dry libraries (Sample Modeling), I go with the following:
1st Violons / Basses : 7ms (+35% MS pan)
2nd Violins / Cellos : 4ms (+ 20% MS pan)
(sometimes I go "antiphonic" and inverses 2nd Violins and Basses)
Brass : 4ms (+ 20% MS pan), more centered players at 3ms (+15% MS pan)
WW : 1ms (just for presence) (no MS pan)
Perc : improvise


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## LinusW (May 9, 2018)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The problem with delay-based panning is that it's not mono-compatible.


+1 
I could use haas delays on a close instrument mic, but never on a stereo source, and regardless I would always make sure the mix works in mono with no obvious phase issues. 
Mid-side (panning the mids, gaining the sides) processing is a beautiful way to control the imaging. Voxengo MSED is free.


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## ghandizilla (May 9, 2018)

100% agree with how it can create phasing issues with mono mastering so you have to be careful (and 100% agree with how it works only in stereo, so I would never use _only_ Haas effect for panning). But from my (little) experience: it's still usable on a very dry _stereo _source. The problem being: if there is too much room, it will then have a blurrying effect, even with close mics (example : doesn't work well with stereo AIR Lyndhurst Hall close mics).


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 11, 2018)

By the way, you can also detune the two delays a hair (re: ghandizilla's post). That's a different sound, but it can help avoid mono-compatibility problems.


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## ghandizilla (May 11, 2018)

I always convert stereo sources into mono before applying the Haas effect (just to clarify my previous post). And I confirm it never sounds good when your close mics have too much air in them 

Not a bad idea at all slightly detuning R relatively to L (or invertly): easy to make with very basic plugins, and it may avoid phasing issues. But it has to be very slight not to sound weird, so, is very slight enough to avoid phasing issues, or do you have to push the boundary and it sounds a bit weird? (The question being: "that's a different sound": what do you mean?  )


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 15, 2018)

I mean you're doing more than creating walls with the delays when you detune them, you're adding a thickening effect - or more than thickening, depending on how far you go; you know what delay-based effects sound like (even though these delays are in the .1 - .9ms range).


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