# Apple-Event 9/2012 - No Logic 10???



## FriFlo (Sep 12, 2012)

The title says it all! I think I am done waiting. Within this year i will have moved to Cubase completely and my next main DAW is going to be a PC. Goodbye apple ...


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 12, 2012)

FriFlo @ Wed Sep 12 said:


> The title says it all! I think I am done waiting. Within this year i will have moved to Cubase completely and my next main DAW is going to be a PC. Goodbye apple ...



What made you think there would be? We've all known for quite a while it was to be an iPhone event.


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## stonzthro (Sep 12, 2012)

You got that right, Apple is an iPhone event.


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## Scrianinoff (Sep 12, 2012)

Crapple cripples their pro users while they're too busy making gadgets that will eventually go out of fashion. What will be left for them then?


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## ThomasL (Sep 12, 2012)

To my knowledge Apple has never had an event for Logic. The updates seems to surprise everybody (almost) when they arrive.


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## Marius Masalar (Sep 12, 2012)

While I understand the OP's frustration, there was no possibility of Apple discussing Logic at today's event. 

As Jay said, it was known well in advance that the event would be to announce iOS-related products. Apple's keynotes are always focused on a particular branch. I expect Logic X to get a quieter release, like Final Cut.

And just to feed the flames of impatience a bit more, I invite you all to have a look at the latest Apogee video showcasing the Quad interface...see if you can spot some familiar-but-intruguingly-different interface glimpses in the software on the screen...


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## ThomasL (Sep 12, 2012)

Mathazzar @ 2012-09-13 said:


> And just to feed the flames of impatience a bit more, I invite you all to have a look at the latest Apogee video showcasing the Quad interface...see if you can spot some familiar-but-intruguingly-different interface glimpses in the software on the screen...


Yeah, saw that one


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## madbulk (Sep 12, 2012)

Mathazzar @ Wed Sep 12 said:


> I expect Logic X to get a quieter release, like Final Cut.



Hopefully without the unpleasantness that followed.


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## synthetic (Sep 12, 2012)

I hear that the UI for Logic X has that stitched leather look from iCal.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 12, 2012)

Oh, puh-leeze.

What is is with so many here that they want to either lionize or demonize people and companies?

ALL these companies; Apple, Microsoft, Steinberg, MOTU exist to make profits for themselves and stockholders. While many do indeed have a passion for what they do, nonetheless they don't exist for the public good and only someone who still thinks like a child expects them to be.

Apple does NOT make crap so calling them "Crapple" is just wrong. They are more successful than they have ever been because they make attractive, elegant and sometimes groundbreaking products that other companies strive to imitate.

Are they over=priced? Perhap,s but obviously they charge what the market will bear which is why they have record profits.

Are they more focused now on iPhones and iPads than the pro apps? OF COURSE they are because that is where the MONEY is. And when the gadgets stop selling they will have new gadgets.

Is Logic "crippled?" Absolutely not. While far from perfect, as EVERY DAW is far from perfect, Logic is more powerful and more affordable than ever and Apple has largely left the German developers free to develop it because it is an incentive for folks to buy Macs. And its user base is at an all time high as a result.

Final Cut Pro was indeed misstep and Apple will hopefully learn from that but if not bear in mind that they have no MORAL responsibility to users for it, any more than the Sibelius people or Opcode people with Studio Vision or Tascam with Gigastudio did. They are in business to make money and a good year for all pro apps sales combined is a bad few days for the iPhone.

OK, rant over.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 12, 2012)

Mathazzar @ Wed Sep 12 said:


> While I understand the OP's frustration, there was no possibility of Apple discussing Logic at today's event.
> 
> As Jay said, it was known well in advance that the event would be to announce iOS-related products. Apple's keynotes are always focused on a particular branch. I expect Logic X to get a quieter release, like Final Cut.
> 
> And just to feed the flames of impatience a bit more, I invite you all to have a look at the latest Apogee video showcasing the Quad interface...see if you can spot some familiar-but-intruguingly-different interface glimpses in the software on the screen...



No, that is a GUI mod that you can download from Logic Pro Help along with a lot of others.


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## Jack Weaver (Sep 12, 2012)

ThomasL and Mathazzar -

Good spotting. I don't think there's anyway to make the current Mixer look like that. You can probably currently do something like that to the Arrange page. But the Mixer looks different. Too bad the guy's left knee is in the way of a good portion of the laptop screen. 

Here's hoping that we can finally get to move tracks around in the Mixer and they've finally completely fixed the single core overload issues. That would be all I would really need for X. 

.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 12, 2012)

Jack Weaver @ Wed Sep 12 said:


> ThomasL and Mathazzar -
> 
> I don't think there's anyway to make the current Mixer look like that.
> 
> .



Sure you can.


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## Jack Weaver (Sep 12, 2012)

Actually Jay Asher said 'No, that is a GUI mod that you can download from Logic Pro Help along with a lot of others.'

That's what I get for not going to the Logic Pro Help site for the past 2 or 3 years!

Thanks for the info, Jay. 

.


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## Marius Masalar (Sep 12, 2012)

There's a fairly involved thread dissecting this issue on KVR if you care to refer to it; while Logic is skinnable, they spotted elements that are not consistent with what can be skinned and with the functionality that Logic currently offers.

Either way, makes one wonder: why would a company like Apogee present a product with a skinned version of Apple? Doesn't quite make sense to me.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 12, 2012)

Question for Fri-Flow: what is it that you're so angry with Crapple for not having in crippled Logic 9 and that you are sure will be in Logic X?

I ask because I couldn't care less if every DAW were frozen where it is today!


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## JT3_Jon (Sep 12, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Sep 12 said:


> Question for Fri-Flow: what is it that you're so angry with Crapple for not having in crippled Logic 9 and that you are sure will be in Logic X?
> 
> I ask because I couldn't care less if every DAW were frozen where it is today!



Melodyne ARA support for a start:


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 13, 2012)

JT3_Jon @ Wed Sep 12 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Sep 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Question for Fri-Flow: what is it that you're so angry with Crapple for not having in crippled Logic 9 and that you are sure will be in Logic X?
> ...




I want that too and I will be shocked if there is not something like that in Logic X but the fact that thereis not hardly makes it "crippled".


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## Bunford (Sep 13, 2012)

I do find it almost baffling why both Logic and Ableton are taking such a lengthy lounge in the back seat. Cubase, Sonar, Studio One, Reaper, Samplitude etc are all making strides, all swallowing up customers that were once/might be Logic or Ableton customers.

My perception is that anyone who loves creating electronic-based music loves Ableton. Logic is loved by those too, as well as by those who create instrumental-based music.

However, in being complacent in their glory of Ableton Live 8 and Logic Pro 9, it seems like they've been caught napping and are at a huge risk of losing too much ground to likes of Cubase to be able to claim it back.

It will be interesting to see what Logic Pro X and Ableton Live 9 might offer........if they ever materialise!


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## stonzthro (Sep 13, 2012)

Nick, I'd LOVE to get better pitch stretching algorithms. The pitch algorithms seem to be not so good for what I often need them to do. 

I'm happy with Logic. I thought of switching a few months back but it seems to be one sack of apples for another.

<edit> Wait - that's what they (above) were basically asking for too!


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 13, 2012)

Bunford @ Thu Sep 13 said:


> I do find it almost baffling why both Logic and Ableton are taking such a lengthy lounge in the back seat. Cubase, Sonar, Studio One, Reaper, Samplitude etc are all making strides, all swallowing up customers that were once/might be Logic or Ableton customers.
> 
> My perception is that anyone who loves creating electronic-based music loves Ableton. Logic is loved by those too, as well as by those who create instrumental-based music.
> 
> ...



My guess is that with Logic Pro, this is major re-do, like 7 to 8 was.


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## madbulk (Sep 13, 2012)

synthetic @ Wed Sep 12 said:


> I hear that the UI for Logic X has that stitched leather look from iCal.


LOL.


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## Maestro77 (Sep 13, 2012)

EastWest Lurker: no one is lionizing Apple. They're mountian lionizing them.

Sorry, had to go there.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 13, 2012)

Maestro77 @ Thu Sep 13 said:


> EastWest Lurker: no one is lionizing Apple. They're mountian lionizing them.
> 
> Sorry, had to go there.



I hope you get medical help


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 13, 2012)

ARA looks great. But is not having it enough to become disgusted with Logic?

stonzthro, I use Sound Toys Speed for stretching. It shows up in the Pitch and Time Machine automatically.

(Although to tell you the truth I've only every used it as an AudioSuite process in Pro Tools, so its full interface shows up as a plug-in.)


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## stonzthro (Sep 13, 2012)

Thanks Nick - I'll look into it straightaway!

(I love this board)


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## FriFlo (Sep 13, 2012)

Ok, guys! If there really is going to be a logic 10 that dose not follow the final cut X thing ... I might re-think! But only if they do some stuff there ... once, the logic enviroment was a miracle, making things possible not to be seen in any other daw. Also the midi editing was leading the way for competitors. I am 50-60% a midi guy as probably most of you are, when you are composing for film. But Logic has not improved anything of significance in that area since ... maybe apple times! I need another breakthrough in that area. There is so much new stuff there, like touchscreens, thunderbolt ... only those two give me millions of ideas to develop GREAT THINGS! 

But today it looks like every DAW has its own advantages and disadvatages at the same time. Only that Logic is only for mac, the others also for PC. There was a time, when I switched to that platform. Although I barely could gather the money as a student I felt rather good with my purchase! I had payed way more than a comparable PC would have cost me, but the OS was better, the integration was better, etc. ... etc ...
But today it is a completely different picture:
I know this is not my observation and has been said many time! Apple has become a hippster life style accessories' developer! They brought out 3 iPads and an 5 iphones, maybe some improvements in the notebook domain, but in the same time there were something like 3 generations of new mac pros! and the latest model have not been updated in almost 3 years, i believe! The same with Logic ...
If they want me to buy the 3rd computer they better come up with something brilliant soon! I don't need a mac to run cubase less efficiant than on a PC. I REQUIRE them to be the leading force, otherwise ... goodbye. I am not willing to spend on a hype anymore!
Probably many people just forgot why they bought a mac in the first place and just keep the habit now, as they can afford it easily. I still need a reason to pay that money apart from ... "wow, look at that nice aluminum housing!" ... or that sort of thing. It needs to be something like ... "wow! that's how I would have done the next version! and there is more ..."


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 13, 2012)

FriFlo @ Thu Sep 13 said:


> Ok, guys! If there really is going to be a logic 10 that dose not follow the final cut X thing ... I might re-think! But only if they do some stuff there ... once, the logic enviroment was a miracle, making things possible not to be seen in any other daw. Also the midi editing was leading the way for competitors. I am 50-60% a midi guy as probably most of you are, when you are composing for film. But Logic has not improved anything of significance in that area since ... maybe apple times! I need another breakthrough in that area. There is so much new stuff there, like touchscreens, thunderbolt ... only those two give me millions of ideas to develop GREAT THINGS!
> 
> But today it looks like every DAW has its own advantages and disadvatages at the same time. Only that Logic is only for mac, the others also for PC. There was a time, when I switched to that platform. Although I barely could gather the money as a student I felt rather good with my purchase! I had payed way more than a comparable PC would have cost me, but the OS was better, the integration was better, etc. ... etc ...
> But today it is a completely different picture:
> ...



I must have explained this 100 times to people.

Final Cut Pro and Soundtrack Pro were developed by Apple guys in Cupertino. Logic was, is and always has been largely developed by the same core group of Germans since they were Emagic, some dating back to Notator on the Atari,

There is simply no reason to believe it will go the way of Final Cut Pro.


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## FriFlo (Sep 13, 2012)

Nick, to answer your question directly: I am not saying that cubase is better than logic or vice versa. I just see it that way that each suck and shine in their own way. But I definitively see more improvement in Steinberg stuff. At least they tried some groundbreaking stuff:
- Note expression (Idon't likeit yet, but I see it go somewhere great at some point
- automation-like control of CC midi data (I just don't get why nobody is doing that, what could be so great!!! you don't even need expensive motorized faders these days with lemur on iPad etc.)
- this brings me to an important hate factor! Apple build an Ipad and has done shit to make use of this technology for Logic themselves, although it is SO OBVIOUS that great stuff could be done with it ...

I could continue, but I am tired. Maybe I should get into programming and make my own DAW ... well, no ...


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## muziksculp (Sep 13, 2012)

Apple (The Phone / Mobile Company) is too busy to deal with rushing to update a DAW like Logic Pro, they are more focused on making more Big-$$$ selling iPhones, iPads, Laptops, ...etc.


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## FriFlo (Sep 13, 2012)

> I must have explained this 100 times to people.
> 
> Final Cut Pro and Soundtrack Pro were developed by Apple guys in Cupertino. Logic was, is and always has been largely developed by the same core group of Germans since they were Emagic, some dating back to Notator on the Atari,
> 
> There is simply no reason to believe it will go the way of Final Cut Pro.



Yes, I know. I am from germany and take pride that both cubase and logic are from my motherland! 
But seriously! in the Emagic times there was way more happening to the program than today compared to the possibilities given by technologies!
And how do you know they were not ordered to move Logic into a consumer direction?
That is another thing that makes me angry: Apple tells you NOTHING! That would be ok, but these days not anymore, just because there are so many hints they moved all into that iCrapp direction. 3 years of nothing new that interests me just doesn't justify the price they charge anymore ...


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## FriFlo (Sep 13, 2012)

> Apple (The Phone / Mobile Company) is too busy to deal with rushing to update a DAW like Logic Pro, they are more focused on making more Big-$$$ selling iPhones, iPads, Laptops, ...etc.



And if that was true (what is also my suspicion) why the hell would I buy another mac, as soon as my 2008 model runs out? That is the whole point of my posting!


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 13, 2012)

FriFlo @ Thu Sep 13 said:


> > And how do you know they were not ordered to move Logic into a consumer direction?



Because, and I cannot violate my NDA here by being specific, I communicate with them regularly and they have told me it will not be moving in the Final Cut Pro direction.


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## Brian Ralston (Sep 13, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Sep 13 said:


> FriFlo @ Thu Sep 13 said:
> 
> 
> > > And how do you know they were not ordered to move Logic into a consumer direction?
> ...



Oooooohhhhhhhh shiiiiiii.....wait...you mean there are people here who actually know what they are talking about and it is not all teens and 20-somethings posting from their bedroom???

>8o 


o[]) Hi Jay! o[])


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## windshore (Sep 13, 2012)

I have heard the same from someone who knows Gerhard better than I do....I think it'll be pretty ready for prime-time.


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## FriFlo (Sep 14, 2012)

Well, then we all agree. I am well prepared to wait for a release, that blows all competitors away. An then - but only then (!!!) - will I be willing to spend the money on a next generation mac pro. I just hardly see any justification to do it in these days. And I think that is bad for apple. Let's say my Mac pro would break beyond repair tomorrow, I would definitively NOT buy a mac any more. Apple just failed to deliver for a long time ... hence, lost my trust.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 14, 2012)

FriFlo @ Fri Sep 14 said:


> Well, then we all agree. I am well prepared to wait for a release, that blows all competitors away. An then - but only then (!!!) - will I be willing to spend the money on a next generation mac pro. I just hardly see any justification to do it in these days. And I think that is bad for apple. Let's say my Mac pro would break beyond repair tomorrow, I would definitively NOT buy a mac any more. Apple just failed to deliver for a long time ... hence, lost my trust.



http://www.filmmusicmag.com/?p=9920


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## FriFlo (Sep 14, 2012)

Maybe in 3 -5 years, but now I would never buy a mac mini instead of a huge desktop. Notebook components ... not the same power and - as pointed out in your link - heating problems, fan noises. Plus I cannot get the same power of a multicore desktop system, neither the required amount of RAM for serious templates.
An lastly, the missing update of the mac pro is my last concern, as far as my machine won't break until the arrival of a new generation. I am just not willing to buy ANY mac, if logic won't have a most remarkable update until then ...


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 14, 2012)

FriFlo @ Fri Sep 14 said:


> Maybe in 3 -5 years, but now I would never buy a mac mini instead of a huge desktop. Notebook components ... not the same power and - as pointed out in your link - heating problems, fan noises. Plus I cannot get the same power of a multicore desktop system, neither the required amount of RAM for serious templates.
> An lastly, the missing update of the mac pro is my last concern, as far as my machine won't break until the arrival of a new generation. I am just not willing to buy ANY mac, if logic won't have a most remarkable update until then ...



You misunderstood. The fan noise issue was from the Sonnet chassis, and my tech easily quieted it down. The Mini is quiet and while it gets a little hot, it sis not an issue.

What I am suggesting in the article is that a Mini or iMac, in TANDEM with a PC is a better way for Logic users to go than an expensive Mac Pro. I doubt you are running a bigger template than I am running this way. Clearly, it is not a 1 machine solution for people with big templates but I have abandoned the idea of a 1 machine solution. 

If you are not committed to remaining with Logic and/or the Mac OS, as I am, then the point is moot.


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## Bunford (Sep 14, 2012)

Whereas Macs are clearly expensive, with more and more people getting annoyed with Apple's shift towards handheld gadgets than their original Macs and unique superb software, I'm surprised not more people build their own CustoMacs.

This link has tried and tested hardware that are fully compatible with OSX, stable as a rock and have zero issues. It's what I have on my system, dual booting with Windows 7. 

It allows me to install components and upgrade easily without having to buy Apple-specific and over-priced hardware, yet still get the full benefits of OSX. I have bought Logic via the App Store and use it on my OSX installed on my PC without any issues. However, just bought Cubase 6.5 so will be using mainly Windows in the near future.

Have a peek if you have any interest: http://www.tonymacx86.com/home.php


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 14, 2012)

Bunford @ Fri Sep 14 said:


> Whereas Macs are clearly expensive, with more and more people getting annoyed with Apple's shift towards handheld gadgets than their original Macs and unique superb software, I'm surprised not more people build their own CustoMacs.
> 
> This link has tried and tested hardware that are fully compatible with OSX, stable as a rock and have zero issues. It's what I have on my system, dual booting with Windows 7.
> 
> ...



A well executed Hackintosh is great UNTIL you want to update OSX I am told. Then it has to be done all over again, correct?


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## Bunford (Sep 14, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri 14 Sep said:


> A well executed Hackintosh is great UNTIL you want to update OSX I am told. Then it has to be done all over again, correct?



Kind of, but not.

If you look at the link I posted a couple of posts back to tonymacx86, there is buying guides. They are bang up to date and are components that are tried and tested and mostly work natively without any hassle with the latest version of OSX Mountain Lion.

However, when updates are released, you need to do it slightly differently, but not really any more hassle. OSX uses what's called kexts (kernel extensions), which is essentially the same as drivers for hardware for Windows. Sometimes, in updating OSX might overwrite a kext with a newer version for, say, your LAN card. All you do is wait a few days rather than update straight away, then install the update by downloading the Combo Update direct from Apple's site (not through Finder's Software Update). You then install the update pkg, run a nifty little programme called MultiBeast, which essentially rolls back the kexts to the previously known fully working version for your hardware and takes no more than a minute or two and then you reboot. MultiBeast is always updates within a day or two of an update as they test loads of different hardware immediately to find out which ones need rolling back etc, so you're only delayed from updating by a matter of a couple of days.

You then have a fully updated OSX. So, updating is slightly different, but is in no way near having to reinstall everything again etc and is simply using a nifty programme that automaticlly rolls back your kexts for you, if that makes sense? (and, sometimes they won't even need rolling back as new kexts will work just fine)


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 14, 2012)

Bunford @ Fri Sep 14 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Fri 14 Sep said:
> 
> 
> > A well executed Hackintosh is great UNTIL you want to update OSX I am told. Then it has to be done all over again, correct?
> ...



Interesting. That is far more seamless than the reports I have from 2 of my friends who had them built but maybe their tech guys are not all they are cracked up to be.


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## charlieclouser (Sep 14, 2012)

Do you think Brian Eno or John Williams would complain about crap like this?


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## FriFlo (Sep 15, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Sep 14 said:


> FriFlo @ Fri Sep 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe in 3 -5 years, but now I would never buy a mac mini instead of a huge desktop. Notebook components ... not the same power and - as pointed out in your link - heating problems, fan noises. Plus I cannot get the same power of a multicore desktop system, neither the required amount of RAM for serious templates.
> ...



I admit I only had time to fly over your article. I thank you for the hint, that at this point a mac mini might already be a viable option. The Ram might not even be a problem for me, as I use 2 slave PCs as well. So, if the Sonnet Chassis makes my RME Madi card, one additional graphic card with two independent DVI connectors (I use 3 Monitors) and an additional slot for UAD card available, it might work for me.
However, I would even buy one of the older Mac pros, if I had high hopes for Logic to become a leading force as it used to be and even better. This is my point! Everything else is not as important.
I would like to point out, what I would expect from Logic:
- make use of their new touch technology: iPads and iPhones have such great potential for your DAW - only apple could pull of the highest integration between touch interface and DAW, since they control both software and hardware
- improve their midi functions: nothing has really happened here since 5 years or so. it is about time, that someone makes midi control like automation (feedback of controllers!!!) possible. This is so logical with touch interfaces that have become available for everyone for a low price today ...
- go beyond midi: there is OSC available for years now. Reaper already integrated this! I would expect logic to go forward here. somebody just have to do something, otherwise we will be in the midi age forever ...
- imporve audio editing to be more competitive with pro tools
- improve the AU plugin: nothing has happened here for years (ARA is nice indeed!)
- generally exploit the fact, that hardware and software come from one company and may influence each other's development. IMO, Logic would have to be faster and more efficient on a mac, than cubase on a comparable PC ...
- integration of external slaves in your DAW: gui via lan comes to my mind - kind of like logic nodes combined with VE pro

Only if at least most of these points (or others I have not listed here) would be implemented in the nex generation of logic would I pay for another mac. I have to use windows anyway, because I am not willing to buy macs a sample slaves ... so why would I buy ANY mac, if it wouldn't give me some kind of power, others can't?


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## windshore (Sep 15, 2012)

charlieclouser @ 9/14/2012 said:


> Do you think Brian Eno or John Williams would complain about crap like this?



They haven't had to - at least very much, but for all of the rest of us,... we can't afford the luxury of avoiding it...


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## FriFlo (Sep 15, 2012)

windshore @ Sat Sep 15 said:


> charlieclouser @ 9/14/2012 said:
> 
> 
> > Do you think Brian Eno or John Williams would complain about crap like this?
> ...



Exactly! :D

JW writes on paper, but take Hans Zimmer, a modern composer who's workflow is more comparable with what most of us people face:
Almost everything in his studio is custom made, his furniture, his PCs, his sample libraries, the playback engine, the touch software controlling the sample libraries. He has people to configure his system just as he wishes it to work and then just sits down to compose. Indeed a luxury nobody else here can afford. That is why at some point I decided to build a nice template enviroment for myself using touchscreen interfaces (Lemur on iPad), software (still learning, but made a lot of progress with Max MSP) and integration to my sequencer.
I found many advantages in Cubase on my way there, Logic being less flexible in many ways. But I am still waiting for someone to make that accessible in a more easy way ...


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 15, 2012)

Fri-Flo.

People pay more to get Macs because of one or more of the following:
1. Love the integration with the iPhone,iPad, or iPod.
2. Like the fact that the hardware's components are chosen fort hem to work together.
3. Love OSX and do not want to deal with a Hackintosh.'4. Run apps that are Mac only or apps that are perceived to run better on a Mac.

If none of that applies to you, then indeed, you have no reason to buy a Mac.

I am pretty happy with Logic 9. While I am hopeful for Logic X, there is nothing I need to do that I cannot do with 9, so I will stay with Mac (and a PC slave) but my days of buying expensive towers are (proably) over.


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## FriFlo (Sep 15, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Sep 15 said:


> Fri-Flo.
> 
> People pay more to get Macs because of one or more of the following:
> 1. Love the integration with the iPhone,iPad, or iPod.
> ...



1) Which integration? You mean iTunes? Then it doesn't interest me so much, as this is consumer stuff. As i said, I would expect them to make a real powerful app between iPad and Logic! Then we are talking! 
2) This is pretty much obsolete today, when you don't put your PC together yourself without having a clue or let a moron do it. You still pay less for a better machine, paying an expert to put it together.
3) I like OS X, but for my studio computer I do not need all this. I will probably buy a notebook for my living room to play movies and music. But that has nothing to do with my studio work. I cannot think of any program that runs better on a mac (except Logic for obvious reason). Almost all programs get written for windows and then converted to mac OSX. Some loose a lot of their efficiency (Play) some less (Kontakt). But pretty much all of them run better and easier on windows machines these days.

So ATM I only see a mac as my hobby or maybe office computer, but no advantage in the studio for serious work.


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## windshore (Sep 15, 2012)

Ha, Hey FriFlo, 
You can dog Mac's all you like and find superior solutions for yourself but the simple fact is that most musicians prefer macs and an awful lot of pro music production happens in Logic.

There are pros & cons to everything. I'm glad you found a good solution for yourself but none of us needs to be evangelical about our choices, so long as they work for us.


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## FriFlo (Sep 15, 2012)

I am not being evangelical, I just point out my opinion, as everyone else does, too. Still, nobody could seriously say anything against my points except for kind of like " Ijust prefer the vibes of a mac". If you feel that way, please just ignore my opinion, as these vibes seem to work for you and the extra money seems like a good investment to you. I want to see some real advantage using a mac! See it that way: When I see, what could be done, and it just doesn't happen, although it would be a great thing, I get frustrated and look for another solution. Others tend to see what they can achieve with what is given to them and are fine with it. Just two different characters, not one being better or worse ...


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## ThomasL (Sep 15, 2012)

FriFlo @ 2012-09-15 said:


> However, I would even buy one of the older Mac pros, if I had high hopes for Logic to become a leading force as it used to be and even better. This is my point! Everything else is not as important.


Probably I've taken this a bit out of context but if you honestly believe that in this day you can have ONE software that outsmarts every other then you'll have to wait, for a very long time. It won't happen. Period.


Also...


FriFlo @ 2012-09-15 said:


> - improve their midi functions: nothing has really happened here since 5 years or so. it is about time, that someone makes midi control like automation (feedback of controllers!!!) possible. This is so logical with touch interfaces that have become available for everyone for a low price today ...


I hear this a lot, and it is very much possible to do today with for example Lemur for iOS. The big question is why no one has answered the question "why"? Why is this important? If you want to "see" what's happening, use your ears (if you'd like to edit it it's probably easier with a mouse anyway). Sure, it would be "cool" but that won't last for long. And yes, it would be great if you're doing live gigs (and some templates are really "cool") but these are extremes. When people start to think about this all it boils down to is that in reality they want a smaller screen. A screen that they can "touch" and interact with. No need for a "dedicated" touch controller.


All in all, use what you've got and use it well and it will payoff. If you can't use it well, go for something else. Simple.

My 2 cents.


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## dinerdog (Sep 15, 2012)

dreamers vs doers

http://www.amazon.com/Do-the-Work-ebook/dp/B004PGO25O/ref=tmm_kin_title_0 (http://www.amazon.com/Do-the-Work-ebook ... in_title_0)

spend $5 on the kindle version and get back to work everyone.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 15, 2012)

> Do you think Brian Eno or John Williams would complain about crap like this?



My point exactly, only put better - not that Mark isn't also right, but I think that's a different argument.


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## drasticmeasures (Sep 15, 2012)

charlieclouser @ Fri Sep 14 said:


> Do you think Brian Eno or John Williams would complain about crap like this?



Best. Post. in this thread.


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## charlieclouser (Sep 15, 2012)

Nathan Furst @ Sat Sep 15 said:


> charlieclouser @ Fri Sep 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Do you think Brian Eno or John Williams would complain about crap like this?
> ...



Mmmm. Well, what I had typed and then deleted before posting that quickie went something like this:

"Dodge has completely lost my trust. If they don't come out with a V-10 in the 2013 Challenger, I'm switching to Chevy and buying a Camaro ZL1, I SWEAR! I've driven nothing but Dodges for 20 years, but I've had ENOUGH of this WAITING! I'll do it, I SWEAR!"

Sounds ridiculous, right? I mean, it's only a car, yeah?

All the moaning about how "Apple has betrayed my trust" and "I'll do it, I swear!" just sounds like teenage temper tantrums. Enough of the threats and moans, just SWITCH TO WINDOWS ALREADY! Please, just nut up, shut up, and switch to Cubendo or Studio1XL2 or whatever and leave us in peace. Logic X and new Mac Pros will come out someday (not soon), or maybe they won't. Who freakin' cares? Logic 9 is a monster as it stands, and if my rig never changed until the day I die I'd be fine. 

I'd kind of prefer that, actually - it would save a lot of hassle. :mrgreen: 

I mentioned Brian Eno because I was just watching a documentary on him, and his studio was fully stocked with a DX-7, a tape echo, and a reverb - and the music was beautiful. Then I read this thread and had to chuckle. Imagine Eno feeling held back by such technological quibbles? To quote Sam Rothstein in "Casino" - "It can not happen, would not happen!"

By way of example, I had Wes Borland come over a few years back to record some guitars on a score. He brought a guitar. No effects racks, no pedalboards, no amps. Just ONE guitar, and it was a new one that he had just picked up and had never used but was anxious to try.

He came in, I plugged him into whatever crappy Pod I had lying around, and I put the Pod in bypass so he could tune up. He started riffing, so I went into record and he laid down some of the most amazing pattern-esque finger-tapping I had ever heard, which completely took these cues to another level. We jumped from cue to cue, recording in hit-and-run fashion, so that I could capture what he was thinking up as fast as I could.

After recording on about five or six cues, we noticed that the Pod was still in bypass. Yes, we were so entranced by his playing that we actually forgot to "get a guitar sound". Even with a completely dry and un-effected, un-amped, un-simulated guitar tone, his creativity and talent drove the session and took the music to another level. I left the tracks dry and un-amped except for some delays in the final mixes. 

Imagine if he had said something like, "I just can't do my best work until Gibson comes out with a Les Paul with Strat pickups. I've played Gibson for 20 years, but they have completely lost my trust by not coming out with this guitar, when it's obvious that the customers are clamoring for it." I'd be like, "Shut up, man... just pick up a guitar, any guitar, and play fer chrissakes!" Would Wes ever say something like this? 

"It can not happen, would not happen".

At your funeral, will your epitaph be, "He made lots of wonderful music, but he could have done so much more if only Logic X and new Mac Pros had shipped sooner..."? I'd much rather mine be, "He was creative and made music with whatever tools fell to hand, from a synthesizer to a stick banging on a pan."

All of the hassling over building templates, self-assembling slave computers, choosing reverbs, core threading, blah blah blah.... just takes one's mind further from the creative space where good ideas can take root and grow. 

If you simply can't satisfy your creativity or meet your deadlines without built-in Melodyne or multi-hyper-core-threading or whatever, then by all means, switch to Windows 9 and Cubendo 7 already, because Logic X and new Mac Pros WON'T be out next month - but accusing Apple of betraying the trust of the faithful customers is silly.

Personally, I long for those precious moments when I can forget such minutiae, and drift in a creative fog, un-troubled by what my preload buffers are or what my hard drive's cache is set to. Would such issues hamper the truly creative, such as Williams or Eno? I think not. Just make some pretty music, folks... life is too short to bitch about a billion-dollar corporation's lack of attention to the "needs" of those of us who make up a microscopic fraction of their business. 

Erik Satie had zero cores of hyper-threading. Gymnopedie still warms the heart.

Gyorgi Lygeti never did get his slave machines to respond to automation correctly. Atmospheres still strikes terror into the heart.

Would I like to have Logic X on a shiny new Mac Pro with 16 cores of SB-E Xeons and 8x 2tb SSDs in SATA6gb slots delivered tomorrow? Sure... at first it seems like it's just what I need, and after a while it starts to seem that life just can't go on without it...

"...and then I remember to relax, and stop trying to hold onto it, and then it flows through me like rain, and I can't feel anything but gratitude for every single moment of my stupid little life."

o[])


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 15, 2012)

Good stuff. Charlie.


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## charlieclouser (Sep 16, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Sep 15 said:


> Good stuff. Charlie.



Yeah... Zen and the art of DAW management, right?


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## Scrianinoff (Sep 16, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Sep 15 said:


> Good stuff. Charlie.



Indeed, good stuff! Now let's rename this site to P.P. Control, since all we need it pencil and paper. Imagine what Eno could have achieved if he wouldn't have lost precious time fiddling around with such nonsense as a DX-7 but would have remained faithful to paper.


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## MacQ (Sep 16, 2012)

charlieclouser @ Sat Sep 15 said:


> Just make some pretty music, folks... life is too short...



This.


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