# Orchestration advice?



## markoconnell (Jul 22, 2021)

Hi all, I'm fairly new around these parts and have recently dipped my toes into the world of orchestral music. I've been putting in some work trying to write orchestral pieces to back music I've already written. I'm a guitar player in my band and we play post-rock, instrumental. I've bought Spitfire Audio's Chamber Strings after lurking and reading glowing reviews on here. 

Anyway, I'm worried that the pieces I wrote don't make 'sense' orchestrally, that the voicings doesn't sound right making me extremely insecure about it. Would it possible to have someone go through them, tweak the midi and make sense of the arrangement. If so, generally how much would I be looking at, cost-wise? Or are there more things I should take note of? 

Hope this all makes sense and I apologize in advance if this seems like the wrong place to post about.

Thanks!


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## JohnG (Jul 22, 2021)

Hi Mark,

It's a never-ending quest, learning the orchestra, so hats off to you for trying. Sounds as though you could use maybe a tutor? Someone to review a piece or two that you've already written and maybe some tips on where to go with personal study after that?

If you could clarify that would be great. There are experienced people in the Los Angeles area who could help you remotely if you're not in Los Angeles. Let us know if that's what you want.

Kind regards,

John


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## Evans (Jul 22, 2021)

I had a paid, one-on-one tutor (for a couple of years, actually) and it was a very helpful and valuable experience.

As I think John was saying, you should assess if what you want is someone to help train you and point your shoulders in the right direction, versus someone who is effectively becoming part of your band and co-developing your band's music.


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## Mr Greg G (Jul 22, 2021)

Yes, finding a tutor will definitely be helpful.
You could also put a snippet online for us to review and comment.


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## ed buller (Jul 24, 2021)

Study some scores as well. Even if you can’t read music just look for patterns. Most music of a tonal nature can be broken down into 3 functions . Melody ,harmony and bass..so translating this from a band would be singer melody , guitar keys harmony and bass ...bass !

when you look at a score for the most part that’s what you’ll see. Now in an orchestra there are 4 components ( band members ).woodwind,brass,perc,strings. Forget the perc for a while.

so when you look at a score you’ll see that They either share and mix up their roles or the don’t. Melody in the strings, harmony in the woods, bass in the brass...etc. This can change.

next is spacing. Generally speaking the higher the pitch of the chord the closer the note spacing .

woodwinds tend to be close. Brass can be either but below middle c open is usually preferable. strings can be either but open sounds great pretty much all the time.

blending in brass and strings is effortless . Woodwinds ,not so much. There are three different ways of producing sound in the woodwinds and that can make it hellish .

one of the best sounds in orchestral music is what Tim @ OMNI ( great source for film scores along with Chris Siddall ) is ”filigree“ . This is the sound of the harmony animated . Arpeggios and runs and trills and tremolos. This is a very important effect in orchestral writing.

YouTube is your friend here:





https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOgzz_ShzoTfS95y8U7-HRA/videos



but yes...find a teacher

best

ed


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## mybadmemory (Jul 24, 2021)

To really simplify things, try thinking of the three main sections (strings, winds, brass) each as their own four part harmony including soprano, alto, tenor, and bass.

Classic four part harmony, as often used in choral writing, can be applied to any of the three main sections with the soprano, alto, tenor, and bass parts roughly translating to violins, violas, celli and basses, flutes, oboes, clarinets and bassoons, as well as trumpets, horns, trombones, and tuba.

You can then look at the three sections as three different tonal colors, that can either work together or do different parts of the equation, taking turns and interlocking with each other to provide melody, harmony, rhythm, bass, and embellishments.


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## mybadmemory (Jul 24, 2021)

And for strings, generally: Don’t let the four parts cross each other. Don’t always change notes on all four parts at the same time. Try to make each part it’s own thing. Don’t voice them too close to each other. And always record dynamic curves to make each part breathe.


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## ed buller (Jul 24, 2021)

markoconnell said:


> Anyway, I'm worried that the pieces I wrote don't make 'sense' orchestrally, that the voicings doesn't sound right making me extremely insecure about it.


I really wouldn’t be too concerned about this. Just have fun for now and experiment. Get used to how things sound and much more importantly, what YOU like !

remember Debussy‘s teachers thought he was hopeless 

best

e


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## ed buller (Jul 25, 2021)

Also: http://theidiomaticorchestra.net/

https://orchestrasounds.com/previous-posts-indexes/

good place to start for a newbie:

https://orchestrasounds.com/2015/05/08/52-kitchen-sink-orchestration-part-1/


best

ed


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 26, 2021)

ed buller said:


> I really wouldn’t be too concerned about this. Just have fun for now and experiment. Get used to how things sound and much more importantly, what YOU like !
> 
> remember Debussy‘s teachers thought he was hopeless
> 
> ...


I've been thinking about this recently too - is there such a thing as the "right" orchestration or voicing (assuming you follow the traditional rules)? It seems there are many "solutions" and options for each line, even when using the same set of instruments, so when I study scores, I am always wondering why these great composers decided on that particular solution - but usually I never find the answer.


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## ed buller (Jul 26, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I've been thinking about this recently too - is there such a thing as the "right" orchestration or voicing (assuming you follow the traditional rules)? It seems there are many "solutions" and options for each line, even when using the same set of instruments, so when I study scores, I am always wondering why these great composers decided on that particular solution - but usually I never find the answer.


Simply put “no” . As long as tesitura and dynamics are reasonably accounted for its down to the composer to pick and chose combinations that satisfy their artistic needs. The success is usually down to experience and good players. My father a composer sometimes said after hearing his piece performed for the first time that it wasn’t successful. He was usually referring to the orchestral colours he was trying to convey.
there are however some no-no’s . Things that everyone experienced will know. Rimsky’s book is very succinct at listing those 

best

e


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## Living Fossil (Jul 26, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> It seems there are many "solutions" and options for each line, even when using the same set of instruments, so when I study scores, I am always wondering why these great composers decided on that particular solution - but usually I never find the answer.


The answer usually lies between imagination (based on an extraordinary inner hearing) and experience in combination with the musical stringency that masterworks have.

One interesting thing for analysis is to see how same/similar ideas are treated in different places.

The maybe most important thing however is to get a feeling for those things that happen in the orchestration under the surface (and therefore are ignored often by untrained composers who imitate orchestral compositions). Very often there are countermelodies or motifs going on that work as a "motor" in the music; often harmonies get a more elaborated color by chromatic/diatonic passing/leading notes.
Or there a held (pedal) notes with few weight that help to maintain the tonal clarity etc.
There's more great orchestral music around than a single person can analyze in one life.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 26, 2021)

ed buller said:


> Simply put “no” . As long as tesitura and dynamics are reasonably accounted for its down to the composer to pick and chose combinations that satisfy their artistic needs. The success is usually down to experience and good players. My father a composer sometimes said after hearing his piece performed for the first time that it wasn’t successful. He was usually referring to the orchestral colours he was trying to convey.
> there are however some no-no’s . Things that everyone experienced will know. Rimsky’s book is very succinct at listing those
> 
> best
> ...





Living Fossil said:


> The answer usually lies between imagination (based on an extraordinary inner hearing) and experience in combination with the musical stringency that masterworks have.
> 
> One interesting thing for analysis is to see how same/similar ideas are treated in different places.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the replies!

I’ve been trying to mock-up more sections from pieces these days. Feels like the best way to understand the colors, blends, and voicings - can even mess with it in the DAW to see how a different approach would sound. No substitute for a lot of writing I suppose!


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 26, 2021)

Would Adler’s book be the best resource for digging into “rules”, blends, and different options for similar lines?


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## Living Fossil (Jul 26, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Would Adler’s book be the best resource for digging into “rules”, blends, and different options for similar lines?


I think that Rimsky-Korsakow's book is a great starting point. It's very compact and gives a good overview. But you can't go wrong with Adler either.



> I’ve been trying to mock-up more sections from pieces these days. Feels like the best way to understand the colors, blends, and voicings - can even mess with it in the DAW to see how a different approach would sound. No substitute for a lot of writing I suppose!


Actually that's a great way to practise! IMSLP is full with great scores.


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## Gingerbread (Jul 26, 2021)

A few suggestions:

There are some really great resources (some of them free!) for someone fairly new to orchestral-style music to get a good grasp of some basic principles.

First, check out Mattia Chiappa's fantastic orchestration videos (here's the first one):






Next, for $30, get Orchestration Recipes, which will help to solidify some good concepts, in a really easy-to-understand way (and it's super affordable!)








Orchestration Recipes


Hear the orchestration, then see how to recreate it—short videos show you which instruments to load, and how to combine them.



orchestrationrecipes.thinkific.com








Finally, get really great and in-depth instruction at Score Club, which in my opinion, is probably the best overall online instruction for both composition and orchestrating. Still quite affordable, considering you're getting university-level instruction.





Home Page - ScoreClub


Golden-age level craft of composition for the modern-day composer. Real training that gets results to write like the masters.




scoreclub.net


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 26, 2021)

Agree on Scoreclub especially - greatest educational resource I’ve come across outside of private teaching (but definitely requires you to put in the work). Orchestration Recipes are great too.


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## jsaras (Jul 26, 2021)

You can simplify it to a bass part, some harmony and melody. Each section of the orchestra (strings, woodwind, brass, perc) should sound like a complete musical part on their own. Experiment with a lot of triadic shapes, thirds, sixths, unisons, octaves. Don't rely on the percussion section to get the groove going. Although it's common in action cues, learning how to create driving rhythms with the entire orchestra is more effective.


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## mybadmemory (Jul 26, 2021)

jsaras said:


> Each section of the orchestra (strings, woodwind, brass, perc) should sound like a complete musical part on their own.


What does this mean in practice? Isn’t it a lot of orchestration about giving different roles to the different sections and then varying between them to add variation and color throughout a piece?


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## ed buller (Jul 26, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> What does this mean in practice? Isn’t it a lot of orchestration about giving different roles to the different sections and then varying between them to add variation and color throughout a piece?


It means if you play each section in solo it should at least make musical sense and be balanced . No you don’t have to have a mini version of everything in each section. That is a style , but somewhat old fashioned . IE SATB in every section. Flute, trumpet Violins the soprano ..etc.

More modern (late 19c onwards ) have the orchestra divided into foreground middle ground background. Roles within that being melody harmony bass. But you might for instance have the woodwinds split their roles. High woods doing runs,trill and broken chords of the harmony and the low woods doing bass !...as long as when you play the woods on their own they sound balanced it will work.

also rememeber as well as dynamics pitch is a big color choice. So for instance you Can have 12 bars of music without anything below middle c or above a c two octave higher...then The next 8 bar is just stuff below middle c...than just stuff above c5 !.....also bass ...not too much..gets very tiring. John Williams is constantly having short notes or pizz in the bass....leave lot’s of gaps....silence too !...huge deal...big tutti rests...massive attention grabber

best
ed

my latest fav YouTube tutorial: really great stuff


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## JohnG (Jul 26, 2021)

I do like Rimsky-Korsakov's book, but it's way, way conservative for today's players. The ranges, the difficulty level -- nothing like what you're going to put in front of professional players now.

Go for Adler, and more recent scores. Even Holst is 100 years ago. Still wonderful but...


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## jsaras (Jul 26, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> What does this mean in practice? Isn’t it a lot of orchestration about giving different roles to the different sections and then varying between them to add variation and color throughout a piece?


Yes, precisely. The fun is finding as many ways as possible to orchestrate a musical idea. 

I’ve always liked the old Rimaky Korsakoff Principles of Orchestration book. Chapter 2 has different instrumental combinations listed for unisons, octaves, thirds, sixths that are easy to employ. For example, common woodwind octave combinations are flute+oboe, flute+clarinet, flute+basson, oboe+clarinet, oboe+bassoon, clarinet+bassoon. Flute and bassoon are usually 2 octaves apart. 
When you’ve got the melody sounding as you want, you can then find a combination for the underlying harmony. It could be French horns in the middle register, or strings, trombones. Then you’ll need something for the bass; cellos, cellos+basses, cello+bassoon, bassoon+bass trombone, etc. 

As you gain experience, you’ll find sounds you like. Starting with a sketch/plan in mind is important to shaping the orchestration.


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## ed buller (Jul 26, 2021)

Most orchestration books are very detailed on the instruments, not so much on how to write for all of them. I think the rimsky is still a great book and straightforward. I don’t know any Adler pieces, but rimsky was a genius .


here he uses DIVIS basses and a lone bassoon!...nuts.

good books 
Creative Orchestration, by George Frederick McKay​Artistic Orchestration by Alan Belkin​Orchestral Technique by Gordon Jacob​The Elements of Orchestral Technique by William Lovelock​






best

e


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jul 26, 2021)

I ordered the Rimsky book (given it is almost universally suggested in any thread on books on orchestration - can't hurt to own it!) and will look at Adler plus some of the ones above next. I do agree that you want to also study pieces that you are fond of - not necessarily the "famous" ones (I did an in-depth study of The Planets, but I don't actually particularly like listening to that suite). You'll get more out of the study if you actually enjoy the music.


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## TimCox (Jul 26, 2021)

+1 for Scoreclub, Alain is clear and concise and on top of learning a ton it helped me solidify a lot of things I had learned on my own but was previously insecure about. As a non-collegiate composer that comfort alone was invaluable


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## ed buller (Jul 27, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I ordered the Rimsky book (given it is almost universally suggested in any thread on books on orchestration - can't hurt to own it!) and will look at Adler plus some of the ones above next. I do agree that you want to also study pieces that you are fond of - not necessarily the "famous" ones (I did an in-depth study of The Planets, but I don't actually particularly like listening to that suite). You'll get more out of the study if you actually enjoy the music.


Get the Creative Orchestration too :...I promise you won’t regret it. It’s a fabulous book full of very helpful tips,examples and simple exercises .




best

e


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## Markrs (Jul 27, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I ordered the Rimsky book (given it is almost universally suggested in any thread on books on orchestration - can't hurt to own it!) and will look at Adler plus some of the ones above next. I do agree that you want to also study pieces that you are fond of - not necessarily the "famous" ones (I did an in-depth study of The Planets, but I don't actually particularly like listening to that suite). You'll get more out of the study if you actually enjoy the music.





ed buller said:


> Get the Creative Orchestration too :...I promise you won’t regret it. It’s a fabulous book full of very helpful tips,examples and simple exercises .
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Totally agree with @ed buller check out the videos by @ryanleachmusic that covers the 8 orchestration techniques covered in the book.


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