# Another new orchestra library for the so called "Modern Compsers" is out: NI - Action Strings



## germancomponist (Oct 10, 2012)

The headline says it all... . 

http://www.native-instruments.com/#...wered-by-kontakt/action-strings/?content=2177


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## Daryl (Oct 10, 2012)

How many more orchestral phrase libraries do we need? Isn't it about time people wrote their own music? :roll: 

D


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## mark812 (Oct 10, 2012)

Daryl @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> How many more orchestral phrase libraries do we need? Isn't it about time people wrote their own music? :roll:
> 
> D



Couldn't agree more. $339 for a phrase library..pointless imo. For a little bit more money you can get a beautiful string library like CS 2 or LASS Lite 2 and all of these phrases are easily achievable with them.


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## antoniopandrade (Oct 10, 2012)

I actually like these libraries that are extremely specific to a certain use and genre. They tend to really excel in that area. I find that these accompaniment figures are quite generic and as such wouldn't bother me much as opposed to melodic phrases, which can be very limited in use.


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## Ian Dorsch (Oct 10, 2012)

I know there is going to be a certain amount of distaste around here for a phrase library like this, but I can see Action Strings being useful in the same way that Hollywoodwinds is--to fill in some common scoring devices in a more convincing way than might be otherwise possible. Some of those stacc patterns are really standard, general purpose stuff, and I can easily imagine some cases where it would be a real time saver to just be able to drop in some convincing pre-recorded phrases of a section or ensemble playing a single note stacc ostinato instead of playing it all in by hand. I think Alex's demo (Permission to Die) is a great example of how this might work in practice.

It's not quite worth the price for me personally, but I'm sure it will be a nice tool in the utility belt for a lot of good composers.


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## benmrx (Oct 10, 2012)

This should get poo-poo'd on by composers the same as things superior drummer gets poo-poo'd by drummers.... the same as EZMix gets poo-poo'd by mixers, the same as Autotune gets poo-poo'd by vocalists, the same as BK gets poo-poo'd by folks that can grill up a good burger...... But ya know..., sometimes a drive-thru REALLY hits the spot!

I think it looks like fun, and just like BWW, it could be a valuable learning tool.


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## Niah (Oct 10, 2012)

Daryl @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> How many more orchestral phrase libraries do we need? Isn't it about time people wrote their own music? :roll:
> 
> D



You mean hiring a composer? That costs way more than 299 

In all seriousness I was watching the video I can see some use for people that write this type of "action" music.

Sure you can program these rhythms yourself, or you can use LASS ART or Ablion's ostinatum but they still lack that raw live feel that a library comprised of real performances, has. In this one you seem to be able to "play" them, sort of...so it's not so bad as I thought.

On the other hand it all sounds a bit generic but so does most media music.


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## Casey Edwards (Oct 10, 2012)

Libraries like this are a nightmare for score prep/orchestrators who deal with other composers MIDI data...


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## mark812 (Oct 10, 2012)

askmusic @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Niah @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > In all seriousness I was watching the video I can see some use for people that write this type of "action" music.
> ...



Albion has unparalleled warmth..in Action Strings video strings sound very sterile to me.


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## dpasdernick (Oct 10, 2012)

Daryl @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> How many more orchestral phrase libraries do we need? Isn't it about time people wrote their own music? :roll:
> 
> D



+1 

People used to think that we'd have machines doing all of the work and we'd have more leisure time... Problem is when the machines do all of the work no one gets paid...

I know, I know "This is only to enhance my own custom compositions and I should be blessed that there are options like this ou there" To that I say, "I have strings from VSL, EWQL, KH, etc that also can compliment my compositions and I get to play them with my own fingers, make up my own melodies etc"...

One day soon a new VST will appear that is just one big ass button that you push to make music...oh wait... 

we have that? 

oh, it's called a radio? 

Does it work with Cubase? How much ram does it need?


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## dcoscina (Oct 10, 2012)

Boring and generic. Seriously this kind of stuff is like Acid Loops back in the day. Waste of money. I prefer writing my own stuff....


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## Daryl (Oct 10, 2012)

Casey Edwards @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Libraries like this are a nightmare for score prep/orchestrators who deal with other composers MIDI data...


True, but all you have to do is add the dictation fee on to the orchestration fee, and your Florida Keys holiday home is still on the cards. :wink: 

D


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## Leosc (Oct 10, 2012)

Dynamedion? Thanks, that's all I need to know. It's pretty much the trade mark for the soulless generic orchestral music that's metastasizing through video game scores.


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## Waywyn (Oct 10, 2012)

It always fascinates me how most of you just think of the negative stuff and bringing up the same discussions as always when it comes to loops.

You think that a loop library does the music? You think by pressing a key and holding a loop for like 16 bars, one can compose as good (or as competitive) as a composer working with multisample libraries or even better, a composer recording a real orchestra?

I really ask, what is wrong with you? Are you guys afraid that guys may take your gigs away, only because e.g. a hobby noob buys (or even better, rips this lib from somewhere?). DO you think this destroys art? Then f*cking don't listen to it and enjoy your time by listening a record of the old masters.

Where is your self confidence? I mean 75% of all the composers here ONLY work with samples. How does the guy think, who uses real orchestra only? Where does HIS perversion start ... maybe by simply using samples at all? I would go even further and say, the perversion already started by recording musicians in general ... however, I am not going any deeper into that philosophical question regarding loops vs. multisamples.

A great composer will make great use of a loop (btw, Action Strings is that flexible you can create such endless possibilities, you wouldn't even think that one used a loop library, but probably none or just a few of you thought about this because you were simply prejudging) ... a crappy composer will always sound crap, disregarding if he owns the complete VSL cube or loop libraries only!

*I am sorry to be that direct, but all that bashing and moaning reminds me of crazy f*cking conservatives roaming about the gay marriage discussions.

If you don't like loop libraries and think these are not worth to have:
Then just f*cking don't buy and use it and compose superior music!*


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## Cinesamples (Oct 10, 2012)

+1 Alex


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## germancomponist (Oct 10, 2012)

dpasdernick @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> People used to think that we'd have machines doing all of the work and we'd have more leisure time... Problem is when the machines do all of the work no one gets paid...
> 
> I know, I know "This is only to enhance my own custom compositions and I should be blessed that there are options like this ou there" To that I say, "I have strings from VSL, EWQL, KH, etc that also can compliment my compositions and I get to play them with my own fingers, make up my own melodies etc"...



+1

In my haed I can see a documentation on tv about scoring. They will show to the rest of the world how easy it is now to "compose"...... .


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## MaestroRage (Oct 10, 2012)

Why the hate on Dynamedion? I loved their work in the Anno series, Bullet Storm, Star Wars Kinect and many other notable projects. While I agree their music isn't going to revolutionize music it's all very well written and produced.

This library is just meant to be a time saver, and I can see it being useful here and there. Not worth the price tag imo but I can't imagine it was cheap getting a large orchestra playing those patterns in such a vast range and dynamics.


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## germancomponist (Oct 10, 2012)

Opsssss: Who hates Dynamedion?

But I always get a smile into my face when I read that argument "timesaver".


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## germancomponist (Oct 10, 2012)

Waywyn @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> If you don't like loop libraries and think these are not worth to have:
> Then just f*cking ignore it.... ![/b]



This sentence reminds me to someone who writes again and again and again on facebook, how poor (e.t.c.) religions are.... .

o-[][]-o


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## Daryl (Oct 10, 2012)

Waywyn @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> If you don't like loop libraries and think these are not worth to have:
> Then just f*cking ignore it and compose superior music![/b]


So you only want to hear opinions that agree with your own? Hmm. Something wrong there.

D


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## dog1978 (Oct 10, 2012)

For me the library seemed to be VERY flexible and that you can create your own music. Much better than a tv movie, where I just heared music loops of Peter Siedlaczek Orchestral Colours - called filmmusic. Perhaps I can write an review for recording.de and make a screencast.
On my reviews and screencasts I like to show every possibilites and sounds / patches.


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## Waywyn (Oct 10, 2012)

germancomponist @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Waywyn @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > If you don't like loop libraries and think these are not worth to have:
> ...



Gunther and Daryl ... Ignore it in the sense, of not buying and using it. For sure you can have your opinion ... and I can have mine, no?

I will correct my line to make it more clear!


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## germancomponist (Oct 10, 2012)

Alex, and do not forget: 

Do not take it personally!!!


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## paulcole (Oct 10, 2012)

I watched the advertisement video for it on YouTube and to be honest I think Vivace is better than this. I have nothing against this type of library, but then again I am an extremely good keyboard player so I don't have an axe to grind about somehow being 'a lesser musician'. However, what I heard on the video didn't make me want rush out and get it. Wait 6 months would be my advice, although by then the loops will be out of fashion.


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## lux (Oct 10, 2012)

Its very hard to tell from the demos and from whats written on the page.

If its playable, multisampled rhytmic figures then it looks pretty useful to me. Otherwise, if its more like "construction kits" it sounds a bit less flexible and more suited for non orchestral composers to build stuff on the fly when they're asked to, more or less like they can do with acidized or rexed orchestral loops. Which is good enough of course, just different. Its all in how the phrases have been recorded and organized, which is not specifically explained. 

Demos at times reminded me of the Symphonic Adventures cd, which I owned and used a lot as a learning tool for orchestration, that was fun.


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## germancomponist (Oct 10, 2012)

lux @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Demos at times reminded me of the Symphonic Adventures cd, which I owned and used a lot as a learning tool for orchestration, that was fun.



+1

The same here. And I had used it on some radio commercials productions. Or was it scoring tools? Hm, don`t remember.... . A long time ago.


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## benmrx (Oct 10, 2012)

lux @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> a learning tool for orchestration



I know I slightly ripped that quote out of context, but that's exactly what I'm thinking here. What I like about this library is that it's ONLY strings, so for someone like me the score is pretty easy to digest, and learn something from.


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## Daniel James (Oct 10, 2012)

I will be doing a video overview view for this one. But from what I have seen, the best way to think about this library is like this.

We all write rhythmic passages using our spic and stac patches, well instead of using those spic patches why not crack out a phrase library that plays the same rhythm, except its recorded with live players so feels more human?

Thats my basic understanding, I will go over it in the vid XD

Dan


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## Waywyn (Oct 10, 2012)

germancomponist @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Alex, and do not forget:
> 
> Do not take it personally!!!



Gunther, I don't know why you come up with this! I never take stuff like this personal. However, I can totally understand if someone would, because it isn't the first time you post in this condescending way. I think in the meantime we all know how you don't like loop libraries, trailer music and the "so called modern composer" and if I be really honest, one could get the impression that you mostly use this forum to "release some pressure" in the psychological sense ... gaining some kind of intellectual pleasure if people agree with you!

Oh, .. since you mentioned my "so called posts on religion". You maybe should really read them, since I have nothing against religion in the way it was ment to be read and tought .. and not how crazy nutheads make literal (miss)use of it today! .. and obviously you didn't understand the meaning between an official forum or a personal Facebook wall!


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## MacQ (Oct 10, 2012)

Looking at the manual, it seems nicely organized into lots of different kinds of ostinato figures, both "unison" so you can play your own chord voicings easily, as well as diatonic phrases in multiple keys. All tempo-synched. Seems pretty useful for load-and-go ... especially if you're tight for time and just need something quick, or to add to an existing arrangement to beef it up with some string intensity.

It's not my personal flavor (I don't like loops, no matter how well multi-sampled), but I'm sure lots of people will find it useful. Just another tool in the box.

~Stu


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## benmrx (Oct 10, 2012)

Daniel James @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> I will be doing a video overview view for this one. But from what I have seen, the best way to think about this library is like this.
> 
> We all write rhythmic passages using our spic and stac patches, well instead of using those spic patches why not crack out a phrase library that plays the same rhythm, except its recorded with live players so feels more human?
> 
> ...



Sort of like using the triads and sevenths from Cinebrass eh? It was YOU that wanted to put an F# minor there right? So why not use an F# minor!! ....or was there really a robot hovering over your shoulder?! 

Looking forward to the vid


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## Waywyn (Oct 10, 2012)

Daniel James @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> I will be doing a video overview view for this one. But from what I have seen, the best way to think about this library is like this.
> 
> We all write rhythmic passages using our spic and stac patches, well instead of using those spic patches why not crack out a phrase library that plays the same rhythm, except its recorded with live players so feels more human?
> 
> ...



It goes even deeper than this. As a quick example:
You load 8th and 16th standard staccatos and you can either change notes AND patterns on the fly (meaning also in between 4th, 8th or 16th notes). The notes you change in the usual way, while you change patters via keyswitches. Even more deep: You can construct your own rack by pciking the phrasings you like more.

With this in mind, the library is not just a loop library with stuff you load up and use by simply hold down a key and let it run until it repeats for 4 times :D
It becomes pretty flexible with almost endless possibilites.

For sure, you are more flexible with a multisample library, but you (not you Dan, but in general) just have to understand the way people like to work:

One may feel comfortable by just using phrases and stitch them together, because he is convinced that real played lines sound better than multisamples. The other person prefers multisample libraries since he/she might be convinced to create more alive patterns with single notes


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## woodsdenis (Oct 10, 2012)

CineSamples @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> +1 Alex



+2 Alex.Its only a sample library and a useful one at that. Far to much high brow elitist comment from a forum of composers who use samples anyway. Daft. 

In the same vein I just got Repetitive bass from Dream Audio, same idea and very useful for when you need that style of playing. Yes I can actually play very well, libraries like this have their uses.

Lets ban Symphobia while we are at it, giving away all those orchestration tricks to the masses, shocking.


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## Mike Marino (Oct 10, 2012)

> +2 Alex.Its only a sample library and a useful one at that. Far to much high brow elitist comment from a forum of composers who use samples anyway. Daft.



+3


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## germancomponist (Oct 10, 2012)

Waywyn @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> germancomponist @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Alex, and do not forget:
> ...



Huh, you never take stuff like this personal?

Read your posts and relax! I never said that I do not like trailer music! I only do not like copying........ . 



> ...and if I be really honest, one could get the impression that you mostly use this forum to "release some pressure" in the psychological sense ... gaining some kind of intellectual pleasure if people agree with you!



Opssss, what have you smoked today?


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## adg21 (Oct 10, 2012)

Yep it doesn't just look like the loop library at all. There are obviously ART / Ostinatum type things in there too, I'd change the topic title but that's just me.



paulcole @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> I watched the advertisement video for it on YouTube and to be honest I think Vivace is better than this.


Disagree I have Vivace and this is clearly more versatile and more advanced. Vivace really is just loops whereas this more mid-way between multi-samples and loops.


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## silenceworks (Oct 10, 2012)

This type of thread is usually a result of people complaining about the price of the library. If this was free it would have been the best library in the world. 

Alex congrats on a yet another great demo!


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## paulcole (Oct 10, 2012)

silenceworks @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> This type of thread is usually a result of people complaining about the price of the library. If this was free it would have been the best library in the world.
> 
> Alex congrats on a yet another great demo!



Yeah. If it was free I would definitely buy it.

Imagine 40 to 50 years ago, after listening to the demos for this, how much better filmscores would have been if they'd had loop libraries like this.


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## germancomponist (Oct 10, 2012)

paulcole @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Imagine 40 to 50 years ago, after listening to the demos for this, how much better filmscores would have been if they'd had loop libraries like this.



Yeah, John Williams, for example, would have found this all so great!


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## Waywyn (Oct 10, 2012)

germancomponist @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Waywyn @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > germancomponist @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> ...



Gunther, I am not going down on this. I am calm, relaxed and I don't smoke (except breathing reality)!

I am just saying thanks for all the stirring up on this lib. I have not been involved in the production itself but I have seen the evolution on this lib and how it came along nicely and how much fun I had by writing the demo!

... and once people pay attention to this library in detail, really take a minute watching the video closely on how Tilman is playing the patterns by using keyswitches and changing notes on the fly - almost changing notes and patterns on 4th or even 8th notes - they will realize that it is not just another loop library, but a pretty awesome construction kit giving you a lot out of both worlds: real played notes (phrases) and multisample-ish behaviour!

Thanks Gunther, I should have seen the positive outcome of this much earlier!


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## germancomponist (Oct 10, 2012)

Waywyn @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Thanks Gunther, I should have seen the positive outcome of this much earlier!





Just a video to remember the past: http://moviesblog.mtv.com/2012/10/05/et-blu-ray-john-williams-steven-spielberg/


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## Ed (Oct 10, 2012)

From the video demo it doesnt exactly look like a press one button music comes out library, so not quite sure why people are talking about it as if it is. I think possibly at the end of the video it might give that impression because you see a clip of the guy pressing what looks like one key and then an audio demo plays. But if you actually look at the live playing, you're going to need to actually know what you're doing to make it sound any good. IOW, it seems much better than something like Vivace because you have to actually "play" THIS library. Unless it has actual arps that Im not aware of. This sort of library is a *production* tool, not a traditional sample library for composers, and sounds like a really good one too, very useful. Even just layering something like this under your own rhythms can really make things come alive, and yes it can also function as a timesaver. There's more to a good track than just great 16th note rhythms, people who cant write cool stuff will just have slightly better sounding string rhythmic beds, but it will still basically suck especially as they will sound like a bunch of other people who also dont know what they are doing. If you use libs like this sparsely and at the right moment they can really make a track and no one will be saying ZOMG you sound exactly like XYZ.


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## Leosc (Oct 10, 2012)

germancomponist @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Just a video to remember the past: http://moviesblog.mtv.com/2012/10/05/et-blu-ray-john-williams-steven-spielberg/



Yes! John Williams doesn't need any string runs library to make great music. The entire score could've been him playing on the piano, silent film style, and it would've been glorious.


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## José Herring (Oct 10, 2012)

Well, I guess we know what we'll be hearing on TV for the next 3 years.


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## Waywyn (Oct 10, 2012)

germancomponist @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Waywyn @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks Gunther, I should have seen the positive outcome of this much earlier!
> ...



Oh sure, now I remember clearly! Back then everything was better. No loop libs, no samples at all, just a man and his piano right? ... and absolutely no crappy composers at all ... right? Jesus!


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## Gusfmm (Oct 10, 2012)

benmrx @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> ...the same as things superior drummer gets poo-poo'd by drummers....



I'm fine with everything else you said but this, which is not the case from what I've seen out there, but in fact, the opposite. Not better than the other two or three typical competitors, but definitely not worse or poo-poo'ed. Maybe you meant EZDrummer.


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## germancomponist (Oct 10, 2012)

Waywyn @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> germancomponist @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Waywyn @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> ...



To be honest, I would not have expected such a trivial comment from you. ... 

-


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## paulcole (Oct 10, 2012)

Anyone seriously suggesting that you actually have 'to play' a loops library needs to pay a quick visit to any music college in the country. Or a psychiatrist. I own Vivace and I certainly never felt like I was playing it.

This is a great library for games writers. Why? Because who seriously listens to game music with an IQ of over 15? So I think this works as a library on that level and that has to be a good thing.


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## Ed (Oct 10, 2012)

paulcole @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Anyone seriously suggesting that you actually have 'to play' a loops library needs to pay a quick visit to any music college in the country. Or a psychiatrist. I own Vivace and I certainly never felt like I was playing it.



Hence why I put "play" in quotes. Secondly I specifically said with Vivace you cant "play" it because its basically a press button music comes out library something like the Scoring Tools is but with more options. With this, if you watch the video, it seems to be just one note rhythms. Now, you can be real lazy and just press a key but that isnt going to be very interesting, to get the results in the demos as far as I can see you're going to need to "play" it. Kay?

Personally I dont think you're very creative if you can watch that video and not see all the creative options that this library could potentially open up, even if you yourself wouldnt use it.




> This is a great library for games writers. Why? Because who seriously listens to game music with an IQ of over 15? So I think this works as a library on that level and that has to be a good thing.



Well arent you just awesome.


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## Daniel James (Oct 10, 2012)

paulcole @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> This is a great library for games writers. Why? Because who seriously listens to game music with an IQ of over 15? So I think this works as a library on that level and that has to be a good thing.



Wow.


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## Waywyn (Oct 10, 2012)

germancomponist @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Waywyn @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > germancomponist @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> ...




Gunther, you posted this video about how music has been made back then. To remember the past and how it is done today. Without loops, without sequencers, without samples. Just "manmade" music, needing nothing else than just pure skills.

However, this posting of your video would suggest that back then no one did write crap music? Don't you see that? There is no difference between today and back then, except the way of how music has been done.

Someone who would write crap today, would have written crap back then and vice versa. Hell, back then there was a guy who was kind of a very successful composer for christmas music ... that "stupid" guy couldn't even handle the black keys. He literally had sort of keyswitches to transform e.g. F into F# in order to write in the key of G!!!

Please tell me how this is any different from using loops in general?


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## paulcole (Oct 10, 2012)

Daniel James @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> paulcole @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > This is a great library for games writers. Why? Because who seriously listens to game music with an IQ of over 15? So I think this works as a library on that level and that has to be a good thing.
> ...



Daniel, while everyone including myself sincerely enjoy your videos and at the same wish anyone writing games music all the best, I think it would be prudent to understand at the same time, that a lot of musicians that do not necessarily care about computers, film or video games, have actually eaten more intelligent sounding animals compared to how they regard the aforementioned.


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## Inductance (Oct 10, 2012)

paulcole @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Because who seriously listens to game music with an IQ of over 15?



Wat u talkin about??

:wink: 

But seriously, there is some really good video game music out there. The score for Metal Gear Solid 4 is absolutely stunning. IMO, of course.


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## germancomponist (Oct 10, 2012)

Waywyn @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> germancomponist @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Waywyn @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> ...



Oh, I am talking only about loops!

Sequencers and samples are good tools, loops are little compositions from other persons! This is a big different!


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## R.Cato (Oct 10, 2012)

germancomponist @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Waywyn @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > germancomponist @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> ...



Gunther, please don't continue this. It's just ridicolous, Alex wrote so many constructive posts here at v.i. control. To be honest I don't think it makes sense to post topics from his facebook wall here and then complain about his reaction. I also remember your posts in many topics about trailers and all I have to say is that in the end I always got the same impression as Alex about some of your opinions. So, please stop it.
:wink:


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## Leosc (Oct 10, 2012)

Vell, look ät zät, two bickering djermäns.

:wink:


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## doctornine (Oct 10, 2012)

paulcole @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Anyone seriously suggesting that you actually have 'to play' a loops library needs to pay a quick visit to any music college in the country. Or a psychiatrist. I own Vivace and I certainly never felt like I was playing it.
> 
> This is a great library for games writers. Why? Because who seriously listens to game music with an IQ of over 15? So I think this works as a library on that level and that has to be a good thing.



Er ..... .?


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## germancomponist (Oct 10, 2012)

R.Cato @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Gunther, please don't continue this. It's just ridicolous, Alex wrote so many constructive posts here at v.i. control. To be honest I don't think it makes sense to post topics from his facebook wall here and then complain about his reaction. I also remember your posts in many topics about trailers and all I have to say is that in the end I always got the same impression as Alex about some of your opinions. So, please stop it.
> :wink:



Why? Is there no freedom of expression? o/~


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## Ed (Oct 10, 2012)

Inductance @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> But seriously, there is some really good video game music out there. The score for Metal Gear Solid 4 is absolutely stunning. IMO, of course.



Im sure that is a prime example of exactly what Paul hates. 

Seriously though there is for sure a lot of crappy game music, but there is some really great stuff too. Paul's not adverse to saying stupid things on this forum so I wouldnt take it too seriously, I think he is trolling most of the time even if he does believe it, he knows its going to get a reaction.


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## R.Cato (Oct 10, 2012)

Acall @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Dynamedion? Thanks, that's all I need to know. It's pretty much the trade mark for the soulless generic orchestral music that's metastasizing through video game scores.



Ok. I don't want anyone to get the feeling that I am the biggest Dynamedion fan ever, but as a long time Anno player, I can say that this is simply not true.

Some of their orchestral recordings sound a little bit generic to me, but you can't make a generalization.

Anyway back to topic.


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## mark812 (Oct 10, 2012)

paulcole @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Anyone seriously suggesting that you actually have 'to play' a loops library needs to pay a quick visit to any music college in the country. Or a psychiatrist. I own Vivace and I certainly never felt like I was playing it.
> 
> This is a great library for games writers. Why? Because who seriously listens to game music with an IQ of over 15? So I think this works as a library on that level and that has to be a good thing.



Have you ever heard of Jeremy Soule, _John Williams of game music_? 



I don't hear one loop or that generic spiccati/staccati in his music. I think that word _epic_ should be used for his music, because it is epic. 

Unfortunately, that word became synonym for bloated, generic and unimaginative music.


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## germancomponist (Oct 10, 2012)

josejherring @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Well, I guess we know what we'll be hearing on TV for the next 3 years.



+1


----------



## Ed (Oct 10, 2012)

Before we're told to stay on topic, I first remember hearing Jeremy Soule's music in Total Annihilation which was amazing and while the game has aged considerably it still sounds awesome. This was YEARS ago as well.

Surprisingly classical sounding tracks? 
I bet he ripped off someone right? 




Anyway I remember tracks like this in this game really blew me away back in the day. Although I will say many of them feel like they go on a bit too long...

Anyway there's more modern stuff like Uncharted and Assassin's Creed (especially Revelations), but I wanted to post something the more "classical" guys would get. Here's AC Rev theme anyway..



And OMG games like Grim Fandango, that whole game is a work of art not just the music.



Saying all game music is bad is just ignorant.


----------



## paulcole (Oct 10, 2012)

mark812 @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> paulcole @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone seriously suggesting that you actually have 'to play' a loops library needs to pay a quick visit to any music college in the country. Or a psychiatrist. I own Vivace and I certainly never felt like I was playing it.
> ...


_

Yeah he's very good at what he does for games. And the whole game genre could be classed as the John Williams patron saint for obese children and adults. I just explained what intelligent adults think about video games. It's a moronic pastime and you need to understand that sooner rather than later. Not that I care in anyway. That said and vaguely staying on topic, anyone creating a loop library that exploits part of that need and also understands that there's a lot more money in catering for twats rather anyone stupid enough to simply sit and read good literature, learn another language or study Flemish painters, has my utmost respect._


----------



## Waywyn (Oct 10, 2012)

paulcole @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Waywyn @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > However, this posting of your video would suggest that back then no one did write crap music? Don't you see that? There is no difference between today and back then, except the way of how music has been done.
> ...



Paul, sure I can not say that there was some crap music back then, right? I never watched stuff from the 60ies, 70ies or 80ies right? ... and everything written before loop libraries (or even sequencers and samplers) was just awesome right?

Anyway, I am not going to discuss with you any further, except a little advice. If you bash out all that stupid stuff you say about game music, game composers, IQ 15 and disorders etc. I am pretty sorry for your (potential) kids, sooner or later playing some game or two, enjoying game music, accidentally reading from their own father, what he thinks/thought about those people! Nice!


----------



## Lex (Oct 10, 2012)

.....on another thought nvm, this thread is too fuktarded.


alex


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## Kralc (Oct 10, 2012)

Why are we all fighting? :cry: It's meant to musicians helping musicians? Right?



paulcole @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> Yeah he's very good at what he does for games. And the whole game genre could be classed as the John Williams patron saint for obese children and adults. I just explained what intelligent adults think about video games. It's a moronic pastime and you need to understand that sooner rather than later. .



The main thing that disappoints me about this post is the multitude of amazing storytelling experiences you are missing out on.


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## paulcole (Oct 10, 2012)

Alex......dear boy, my children are about 15 years older than you are. One is 40 and the other is 38. Exploit game music and make it pay. Utmost respect to you.


----------



## dpasdernick (Oct 10, 2012)

I suggest you all wait until I buy it because...

..everytime I make an NI purchase the very next day the library I just bought is now "on sale/included in Komplete MOFO.0/given away as a free promotion/or discontinued never to be seen again...

frickin' story of my NI life...


----------



## Ed (Oct 10, 2012)

paulcole @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> I just explained what intelligent adults think about video games. It's a moronic pastime and you need to understand that sooner rather than later. Not that I care in anyway. That said and vaguely staying on topic, anyone creating a loop library that exploits part of that need and also understands that there's a lot more money in catering for twats rather anyone stupid enough to simply sit and read good literature, learn another language or study Flemish painters, has my utmost respect.



You know you could say the exact same thing about films and film music, right? 

You sound like a bitter old ignorant man stuck in his ways incapable of seeing anything good in this new medium. Youve still not broken out of the idea that videogames are just for the kids who want to blast digital aliens at the arcades for a few hours every day after school while they should be doing their homework. The video game industry is only, really, about 20 years old, films have been around for over a hundred. You dont think you can make intelligent thought provoking artistic games of the same artistic worth as any movie? You havent been paying attention and it will only get better. But you stay in the past and try and feel safe in your close minded ignorant cynicism. No need to reply and tell me you are very happy with your opinion, I can already imagine the smug look of satisfaction on your face. You wanted a reaction, and you got one.


----------



## Waywyn (Oct 10, 2012)

paulcole @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Alex......dear boy, my children are about 15 years older than you are. One is 40 and the other is 38. Exploit game music and make it pay. Utmost respect to you.



Bashing about gamers, game music, IQ 15 and how senseless it all is, but can't even add up simple numbers! Priceless ... and these words from a 37 year old gamer since age 9. Ouch!

I am outta here, need to play a bit of Minecraft and maybe sucking in some more quantum physics articles!


----------



## Daniel James (Oct 10, 2012)

paulcole @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Daniel James @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > paulcole @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> ...



Haha I am still not fully picking up what you are saying? Anything related to video games is silly and brainless? Because I enjoy it I have an IQ under 15? XD

Lol I don't understand where all the hatred is coming from  we try just as hard on games as we do on films. Sure people are allowed to THINK games are dumb and meaningless, thats their opinion and are entitled to it (I think that thing people do where they chase a roll of cheese down a hill is stupid and pointless but some cant get enough of that shit!  ) but I think to make a general blanket statement, as though fact, that games are dumb is a little over the mark.

(You really know how to touch nerves huh  )

Dan


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Oct 10, 2012)

germancomponist @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> R.Cato @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Gunther, please don't continue this. It's just ridicolous, Alex wrote so many constructive posts here at v.i. control. To be honest I don't think it makes sense to post topics from his facebook wall here and then complain about his reaction. I also remember your posts in many topics about trailers and all I have to say is that in the end I always got the same impression as Alex about some of your opinions. So, please stop it.
> ...



Only if you express the popular opinion :lol:


----------



## Ed (Oct 10, 2012)

paulcole @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Ed I kept this generic and you as usual came back with your own particular brand of personal rhetoric.
> 
> Video games are for morons. Are you a moron Ed? I think perhaps you might be? It's an only a guess... But an educated one. :lol:



You call people stupid if someone likes video game music and then claim peoples reactions are personal? :roll: 

But hey congrats, you just did it again. You ought to be banned for trolling.


----------



## Casey Edwards (Oct 10, 2012)

paulcole @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Yeah he's very good at what he does for games. And the whole game genre could be classed as the John Williams patron saint for obese children and adults. I just explained what intelligent adults think about video games. It's a moronic pastime and you need to understand that sooner rather than later. Not that I care in anyway. That said and vaguely staying on topic, anyone creating a loop library that exploits part of that need and also understands that there's a lot more money in catering for twats rather anyone stupid enough to simply sit and read good literature, learn another language or study Flemish painters, has my utmost respect.



There are so many things wrong with this paragraph and I don't even know where to begin. Close-mindedness at any age will never put you in an intelligent position to speak to anyone.


----------



## Kralc (Oct 10, 2012)

Paul, honest question here, have you ever played a video game? And if so would you care telling us which one/s?


----------



## mark812 (Oct 10, 2012)

Ed @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> paulcole @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed I kept this generic and you as usual came back with your own particular brand of personal rhetoric.
> ...



His posts kinda remind me of that Jeffrey Peterson guy who used to post here..


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Oct 10, 2012)

Ed @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> paulcole @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed I kept this generic and you as usual came back with your own particular brand of personal rhetoric.
> ...



Paul, you are crossing a line you should not cross and it bewilders me that moderators here just let this crap keep happening and happening.

I have had my battles with Ed, but he does not deserve that.


----------



## Ian Dorsch (Oct 10, 2012)

Man, everyone is so cantankerous around here. Is election season getting everyone in a bad mood, or what? :lol:


----------



## Ed (Oct 10, 2012)

paulcole @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Christ you're an even bigger idiot than I thought you were. He calls me a bitter old man and I can't respond? Ok in the words of someone close I'm outta here. :lol:



What you have to understand is that if Jay is defending me, you know you fucked up. :lol: 

Lets recap....

_Because who seriously listens to game music with an IQ of over 15?
...
I just explained what intelligent adults think about video games. It's a moronic pastime and you need to understand that sooner rather than later. 
...._


And since you said this library was perfect for games, you went on to imply games and game music as ... 

_"...catering for twats rather anyone stupid enough to simply sit and read good literature, learn another language or study Flemish painters, has my utmost respect_."


So you said that if you're intelligent you know that someone that likes games and game music is a stupid moronic twat with a low IQ that cant appreciate good art and literature.

And you think me calling you a "bitter old man" is an unfair response to this? :lol: :lol:


----------



## Hannes_F (Oct 10, 2012)

Kralc @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Paul, honest question here, have you ever played a video game? And if so would you care telling us which one/s?



Kralc, I am not Paul but I'll bite. As far as I remember I never played a video game in my life and did not miss it so far.

Well I think I tried Windows minesweeper and solitaire once but did not even make it to the end of each, so that does probably not count. 

Which game would you recommend for a test (serious question)?


----------



## rocking.xmas.man (Oct 10, 2012)

well an intelligent bitter old man would know music is completely pointless. paulcole - stop pretending being intelligent, after all you are here because you like and make music - your performance here would only be authentic if you were a highly renown scientist in theoretical physics 
let's face the truth - we are all equal: being incompetent mediocre morons. but some are more equal than others

edit: Hannes, since you are german i'd recommend "the whispered world". it's a point and click adventure. It may not be a good example for the action a game can soak you in, but its look and feel is very organic, the story quite nicely told and the music is also nice. but the most important point is the emotional power of the end of the story. i think this is as amazing example for emotional power of game. 
sorry for all englisch speakers - i'm missing the vocabulary for the following:

beim spielen gibt es stets ludologische Aspekte und narrative. Einerseits erfährt der Spieler eine rein spielerische Freude daran, durch ein Regelwerk gelenkt aufgaben zu meistern. Minesweeper z.B. geht über diese Dimension nicht hinaus. Einige Games betonen diesen Aspekt besonders durch eine körperliche erfahrung - die Wii, oder Kinect setzen ja auf Körperbewegung zur steuerung, dadurch wird das Spielerlebnis direkter und erweitert die wahrnehmung um eine tatsächlich körperlich spielerische und nicht mittelbar spielerische ebene. Der narrative Aspekt liegt eben darin, eine geschichte zu erzählen. Besonders in Text- und Point-and -Click Adventures ist dieser Aspekt besonders betont, da es kaum klassische Spielelemente - also ohne erzählerische Bedeutung gibt. Point-&-Click Adventures fangen das teilweise durch lustige kleine Rätsel auf. In anderen Spielen werden häufig Minispiele integriert, so kann man z.B. in Fable mit Münzen Curling spielen usw. Die Krux ist, die Erzählung eines Plots so mit der Spielerfahrung zu verbinden, dass die Story, die der Spieler erlebt emotional beständig ist. Im Film ist z.B. der Rezipient kein teilnehmer, sondern guckt nur zu. Das hat neben dem offensichtlichen den Vorteil, dass die Apparatur des Films völlig in den Hintergrund treten kann - das Dispositiv des Kinos ist darauf ausgelegt, in die Konstruktion der Story die Künstlichkeit der Filmwiedergabe nicht einzubeziehen, sondern tatsächlich nur den Inhalt als wesentlich wahrzunehmen. Das ist bei Spielen so nicht möglich. Da der spieler tatsächlich am Plot teilnimmt und scheinbar eingreift, muss er von der Apparatur in seinen Möglichkeiten beschnitten werden. Im Optimalfall bleibt das aber unthematisch, da der Spieler die Optionen die er hat ohnehin naheliegend findet. Wenn aber das nicht der Fall ist, stört das die emotionale Struktur der Story. Beispiel: Du sollst im Spiel den Strom in einem Zimmer abstellen. naheliegende Lösung: Sicherung umlegen. Das Spiel zieht dich aber vorher in eine Welt und in einen Plot, in dem das nicht naheliegend ist, sondern in dem für dich total klar ist, dass du den Schuppen neben dem Haus in die Luft sprengen musst, weil da ein Generator drin steht. Das kann super funktionieren. Aber komm mal auf die Idee ein Kabel zerstören zu wollen - da der versuch scheitert, weil das Spiel keine Kabel vorsieht, reißt dich das erstmal aus dem emotionalen Erleben der Spielwelt, weil du einen spielerischen Misserfolg erlebst. Den selben Effenkt haben kleine technische Fehler in Spielen. in the Whispered World bleibt man von beiden ziemlich gut verschont


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Oct 10, 2012)

Ed @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> paulcole @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Christ you're an even bigger idiot than I thought you were. He calls me a bitter old man and I can't respond? Ok in the words of someone close I'm outta here. :lol:
> ...



You have _that_ right! :lol:

Actually, once in the heat of argument I wrote to Ed that he was "dumber than squirrels", which I regret. I had squirrels picketing outside my studio for days :twisted

Just kidding, Ed.


----------



## Daniel James (Oct 10, 2012)

Hannes_F @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Kralc @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Paul, honest question here, have you ever played a video game? And if so would you care telling us which one/s?
> ...



The good thing about games is nowdays there is a game for pretty much anyone. Although its a tricky question because it all depends what you are into as an individual. It's like recommending a film to someone, there are people who will swear down that Star Wars is the best film ever however others might not like it that much but instead prefer a romcom  Hell even my mum likes to play hidden object games, and she can hardly use a computer haha

Dan


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## Casey Edwards (Oct 10, 2012)

Hannes_F @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Kralc @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Paul, honest question here, have you ever played a video game? And if so would you care telling us which one/s?
> ...



Hannes, I know you didn't ask me, but that really is a hard to answer question. Do you even WANT to buy a game system? Looking for PC only? Then you have genres. Games like Red Dead Redemption, Bioshock, Dead Space, Assassins Creed, and lots others have fantastic story lines! It's not just point and click (or shoot) in every game. Skyrim has a huge map with tons of options and a fantastically majestic world to explore. You kinda have to play games to find your niche, if there even is one for you in the game world.


----------



## mark812 (Oct 10, 2012)

Hannes_F @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Kralc @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Paul, honest question here, have you ever played a video game? And if so would you care telling us which one/s?
> ...


----------



## Waywyn (Oct 10, 2012)

rocking.xmas.man @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> well an intelligent bitter old man would know music is completely pointless. paulcole - stop pretending being intelligent, after all you are here because you like and make music - your performance here would only be authentic if you were a highly renown scientist in theoretical physics
> let's face the truth - we are all equal: being incompetent mediocre morons. but some are more equal than others



You made my day! I am now happy to snuck in once more and following the discussion!


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## Ed (Oct 10, 2012)

lol Mark, Duke Nukem.


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## Daryl (Oct 10, 2012)

I have no dog in this game discussion, except to say that I think that the majority of the time it's a generational thing. I did play some games in my late teens and early twenties, but then found different things to do as I got older. Now the thought of sitting down twiddling my thumbs playing a video game seems boring to me, compared with playing a sport, for example. I'm sure that a lot of the people on this forum who play games at the moment will do it less and less as they get older. I hesitate to use the phrase "grow out of it", but that's basically what it is.

I think what I'm really saying is that every part of your life has different likes and dislikes, and that's exactly as it should be.

D


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## mark812 (Oct 10, 2012)

Ed @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> lol Mark, Duke Nukem.



Damn, I spent countless hours as a child playing Duke and Red Alert 1 on a Pentium I 133. =o


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## Daniel James (Oct 10, 2012)

Daryl @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> I hesitate to use the phrase "grow out of it", but that's basically what it is.














Nope. You must be playing the wrong games. 

Dan


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## Ed (Oct 10, 2012)

Hannes_F @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Which game would you recommend for a test (serious question)?



There's a *lot *of different kinds of games Hannes. I'd say even more diversity than films, way more actually. 

If you could easily play *Grim Fandango*, I'd suggest you play that, its very special. Everything about it is great, but you'll have a hard time finding it and making it work these days which is a shame.
You can find gameplay videos online, I posted a track from the soundtrack on the previous page. Probably the last great example of a real "adventure game" of that genre, they dont make em like that anymore kids. :lol: Its genuinely funny, fantastic art design, brilliant music and surprisingly great voice acting.

There are games like *Myst and Riven* that are not representative of most games at all really but they are great examples of the puzzle genre, and they have terrible acting... but are basically artwork you walk around in and it has a wonderful atmosphere, though thats more so in Riven as Myst looks pretty old now. Dont expect to get through those games without a guide, my IQ is too low for that game (LOLOLOL)

Like with films you got your hollywood blockbusters and you got more thoughtful games, but technology is improving very quickly and boundaries are being pushed all the time allowing way more interesting stories to be told. Its quite hard to recommend any one game really in case you then think thats representative of all games, especially if its not particularly to your tastes. The reason you find so many shooter games is that its much easier to program, bad guys that just shoot at you dont need complex AI. As I said earlier games have only really been around for about 20-25 years and gone from text games, to a few horrible looking pixels on the screen with some bleeps and bloops to what we see today. The film industry is over a hundred years old, if people cant see the potential of games they really have not learnt anything from history. Kind of like how someone back in the 70's might have said computers or mobile phones arent going to go that far, real mistake. Back when games first started it was a lot easier to make them, people could make them for nothing in their rooms and make millions (pretty much like ID software) but now to make a major AAA title you need millions and millions and a whole team. When people say the games industry makes more money than the film industry, they arent kidding. You should find out how much something like World of Warcraft has made, its insane. Anyway that was a little digression.


----------



## Chriss Ons (Oct 10, 2012)

OT: 
It's not a treatise on composition which tells you to stop writing your own lines. It's a tool, and there's nothing wrong with it: the more we have of those, the better. I rarely buy stuff that falls under the category construction kits / phrase-only libs, so this one isn't for me either. It doesn't fit in my workflow and I'm not all that good at finding workarounds for the limitations which a product like this has. But that doesn't mean someone else isn't capable of making good music with it.


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## Ed (Oct 10, 2012)

Daniel James @ Wed Oct 10 said:


>



I imagine Paul to be the grumpy looking one in the chair. :lol:


----------



## Daryl (Oct 10, 2012)

Daniel James @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Daryl @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > I hesitate to use the phrase "grow out of it", but that's basically what it is.
> ...


Not really. I think if you took a snap poll, you'd find that my assessment was fairly accurate. I have played some games for a few minutes with my nieces and nephews, but none of them held much attraction for me to continue. I know that I felt differently when I was younger, so I'm speaking from experience. Obviously only my experience though.

D


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## nutotech (Oct 10, 2012)

To me this is just the Animator section of Session Strings Pro. Which by the way, is suppose to have key switching for different rhythms. Was told it was coming in an update. Looks like NI decided to release a $339 "update" instead. :-(


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## Ian Dorsch (Oct 10, 2012)

You guys wouldn't believe how many sick burns I've come up with, and then decided not to post. 

Okay, it's two. But they were REALLY sick burns.


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## Kralc (Oct 10, 2012)

Hannes_F @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> Which game would you recommend for a test (serious question)?



Hmmm, that's a hard question...

The main reason I asked, was to see if his experience was playing/watching someone play an online FPS, (CoD, etc...). In my experience with these games, I've heard many racial/misogynistic slurs being thrown about in voice chat. If some like that was his only experience with gaming, I could maybe understand his view of gamers being "morons".

But obviously this isn't a reason to crucify gaming as a whole, as there are many awesome games out there. Casey mentioned some great ones (Red Dead being my favorite of that bunch). But it is a hard question, as it can be kind of expensive for the newer stuff. (I was lucky enough to amass my collection throughout Christmases and birthdays.) But if you are interested, I can imagine the original ps3 would be cheaper thanks to the two updated iterations.
Games wise, (I'll just go with ones I personally like, I'm probably missing tons, these are just off the top of my head, and just for the ps3)
Uncharted 2, Metal Gear Solid 3, Red Dead Redemption, Skyrim, Little Big Planet, Arkham City, Portal 2.


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 10, 2012)

Not interested in video games myslef but I don't put down those who are.

After all, I am addicted to the Rocky movies, all six of them.


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## Ed (Oct 10, 2012)

Man, even back in 1997, game developers were such morons. Look at this making-of video! Why did they think gamers (being the stupid idiots they are) could cope with a thoughtful puzzle game like this?
Btw I challenge anyone that thinks they are smart and games are for the mentally challenged to get their hands on a copy of Riven and get through it without a guide. I bet you wont make it very far before you give up and vomit out your brain.


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## gsilbers (Oct 10, 2012)

nutotech @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> To me this is just the Animator section of Session Strings Pro. Which by the way, is suppose to have key switching for different rhythms. Was told it was coming in an update. Looks like NI decided to release a $339 "update" instead. :-(



no. its prerecorded phrases. some are just regular 8th note and 16th note like the animator wit different accents or its small figures to help out when composing runs or help out when composing.


----------



## gsilbers (Oct 10, 2012)

dpasdernick @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> I suggest you all wait until I buy it because...
> 
> ..everytime I make an NI purchase the very next day the library I just bought is now "on sale/included in Komplete MOFO.0/given away as a free promotion/or discontinued never to be seen again...
> 
> frickin' story of my NI life...



isnt it worst with EW and similar with most products?


----------



## gsilbers (Oct 10, 2012)

germancomponist @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> The headline says it all... .
> 
> http://www.native-instruments.com/#...wered-by-kontakt/action-strings/?content=2177



yes, everyone should make "classical" film composer music that sounds like cartoony music . anything else doesnt deserve the light of day... 

now.. wheres my white wig and my dry martini. i need to lift my pinky up when i zip it


----------



## gsilbers (Oct 10, 2012)

Daryl @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> How many more orchestral phrase libraries do we need? Isn't it about time people wrote their own music? :roll:
> 
> D



the phrases are not that long. 

and there is more phrase libraries? i only know of this and hollywoodwinds.


----------



## Darthmorphling (Oct 10, 2012)

I never understood why people get so hung up on what people like and dislike. There are plenty of things in this world worth getting upset about and a person choosing to spend their leisure time playing a game, listening to a certain type of music, or a having a particular hobby, should not be one of them.

Hobbies, and the relaxation they provide, are what allow people to become more focused in other aspects of their lives. I enjoy playing guitar, and pretending like I am a composer with my computer. It's what allows me to decompress for the next day's work. Playing video games does that as well. 

It seems to me that if you enjoy something, have at it. If you do not then don't do it, listen to it, or complain about it.

I am 41 years old, I play video games, and am proud of it! :D


----------



## José Herring (Oct 10, 2012)

Darthmorphling @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> I am 41 years old, I play video games, and am proud of it! :D



Grow up. Move out of your parents attic, get a job you hippie!

:lol: 

(That's a joke btw)


----------



## Darthmorphling (Oct 10, 2012)

josejherring @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Darthmorphling @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > I am 41 years old, I play video games, and am proud of it! :D
> ...



The good old days, before "I grew up" and had kids. I had more time for music, games, made less money, but yet seemed to have more to spend :mrgreen:


----------



## MaestroRage (Oct 10, 2012)

well i'll let you guys know how it is! Couldn't resist picking it up to fool around with.


----------



## RiffWraith (Oct 10, 2012)

MaestroRage @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> well i'll let you guys know how it is! Couldn't resist picking it up to fool around with.



Please do, and a short (or long) demo would be nice!


----------



## Alex Cuervo (Oct 10, 2012)

One of my favorite things about this website is watching a bunch of so called professionals relentlessly try to impress or outdo each other by publicly dumping on one potential client after another. And then these babies complain that amateurs can do their job now. Actually, it's because these so called amateurs love the mediums they create for more than their need to be above it all.


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## MaestroRage (Oct 10, 2012)

I'll say this right now gents, this library is not nearly as "cheaty" as people think. There is an incredibly large number of options and styles.

It's one dynamic layer though. The mod wheel basically controls volume and I believe applies an eq curve on the high end to emulate a softer tone. But definitely fully exposed you can make it out.


----------



## mk282 (Oct 10, 2012)

The video states there are two velocity layers and that modwheel controls the crossfade between them.


----------



## NYC Composer (Oct 10, 2012)

You know what would fit great here? A sanctimonious post from Larry about keeping things civil and avoiding name calling and age-ism.....

Wait. Nah. Never mind.


----------



## noiseboyuk (Oct 10, 2012)

Alex Cuervo @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> One of my favorite things about this website is watching a bunch of so called professionals relentlessly try to impress or outdo each other by publicly dumping on one potential client after another. And then these babies complain that amateurs can do their job now. Actually, it's because these so called amateurs love the mediums they create for more than their need to be above it all.



Cool post. Passion for the medium, perhaps even more than the music itself, is one helluva driver, and I often see talented composers here apparently despise their medium.

As for the library - what's left to say after 4 pages? Looks fine to me, certainly not just a bunch of phrases, but based on the video it doesn't really add much realism beyond what LASS's ART can do imo. Will be curious to see a more in depth video though. Might be nice in Komplete Ultimate 9 or 10...


----------



## R.Cato (Oct 10, 2012)

Alex Cuervo @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> One of my favorite things about this website is watching a bunch of so called professionals relentlessly try to impress or outdo each other by publicly dumping on one potential client after another. And then these babies complain that amateurs can do their job now. Actually, it's because these so called amateurs love the mediums they create for more than their need to be above it all.



Well, said.

Furthermore most amateurs do it for far less money, but that does not belong in this topic here.

My first thoughts on that library were: "Another NI product...." But after listening to the demos on their website I was surprised how well thought out this library seems to be. I always wondered how long it would take until a developer brings out such a string library. My main guess had been that Hendrick would update Orchestral string runs in that direction or cinesamples would release a library like this one.

When I read through some of the posts here I get the impression some here are afraid an amateurish composer is able to deliver a better product with Action Strings than the "pros". Keep in mind that's the user not the library which makes the music shines. And even more important: "It's the music in your head, not the music you can hear when you randomly press keys to trigger phrases, multisamples -whatever it's all the same- which should be your final product." So this product doesn't support cheating, but improving your workflow and sound. At least it should.....


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## Dan Mott (Oct 10, 2012)

Darthmorphling @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> I never understood why people get so hung up on what people like and dislike. There are plenty of things in this world worth getting upset about and a person choosing to spend their leisure time playing a game, listening to a certain type of music, or a having a particular hobby, should not be one of them.
> 
> Hobbies, and the relaxation they provide, are what allow people to become more focused in other aspects of their lives. I enjoy playing guitar, and pretending like I am a composer with my computer. It's what allows me to decompress for the next day's work. Playing video games does that as well.
> 
> ...




FIFA 13 =o That improves my day!


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## Waywyn (Oct 11, 2012)

Alex Cuervo @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> One of my favorite things about this website is watching a bunch of so called professionals relentlessly try to impress or outdo each other by publicly dumping on one potential client after another. And then these babies complain that amateurs can do their job now. Actually, it's because these so called amateurs love the mediums they create for more than their need to be above it all.



Well put! ... I also noticed that a lot (of course not all) who always complain, are actually not even daytime/fulltime composers, but just "wanna be's" or pretending to be ... who are actually a bit difference to the passionate hobby composer by the way!

The more I read through this whole thread I more and more realise that it is again people who are just connecting the "next" dots instead of connecting the most logical ones. They somewhere read phrase library, they see the opinion of person X, they just watch 10 seconds of the video because being in a hurry, the check the price and comparing this to their actual income/budget, ... and very very quickly a library such as Action Strings is considered crap and "just" another loop library for the so called modern composer"!


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## adg21 (Oct 11, 2012)

After all this arguing can I ask if anyone has actually bought it? How is it?


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## ghostnote (Oct 11, 2012)

I second what alex said. 

The library is ment to be a timesaver and a versatile tool to extend your palette of orchestral samples and can be far more versatile than you might think. A what you might call "modern composer" will use it because it's simply an advantage and he or she will use it creatively. Are you going to start writing your music with piano, pen and paper again just because you think you're an veteran?

And... the game music discussion is just ridiculous... I think the most of us knows better


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## leafInTheWind (Oct 11, 2012)

Paulcote, I'm quite dissapointed in your IQ of 15 comment. May I suggest checking out some game composers such as

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobuo_Uematsu 
The grandfather of FF music. I'll be at the Royal Albert Hall on the 2nd of november at Distant Worlds to listen to the Royal Philharmonic play my favourites. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN6q1q6mynI (To Zanarkand) is one of my favourite compositions. Looking forward to distant worlds, nothing like hearing 8 bit 80s music re-orchestrated for full orchestra, and having synth solos replaced by real opera singers for the FF6 opera scene.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoko_Kanno
Not so familiar with her game music, but for her anime, check out Record of Lodoss war, played by the Shinsei Nihon Symphony Orchestra. Those into jazz need to check out Cowboy Bebop as well. Wolf's Rain run a wide gauntlet of music too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasunori_Mitsuda
More of a fan of his earlier works, particularly the music in Chrono Cross, like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J46RY4PU8a8 (Time Scar).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koji_Kondo 
Legend of Zelda. Nuff said. 

Jeremy Soule - mentioned above. I'm still waiting for my GuildWars 2 OST to arrive from the USA! Gah! No idea why they don't sell digital downloads. Not a fan of CDs cluttering up the house.

I think I'm missing out many other console/pc composers (e.g. Paul Ruskay, Homeworld 1,2) - I'm really bad with names, had to google for koji kondo (i thought it was kando) - but give their work a listen, it may give you a new perspective on game music, and game music by classicaly trained composers and musicians. Yoko Kanno is a very accomplished pianist, Uematsu plays several instruments and has his own band, The Black Mages. 

I'm not ashamed to say, I love game music.


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## FriFlo (Oct 11, 2012)

I think there is no way around admitting that composing for media has completely changed and will do even more so in the future. The skill set to deliver commercially successful music is not the old one any more. Today you need:

- good mixing skills
- a result oriented working ethic that is mainly focused in fast result
- ability to adept to certain clichees and trends quickly
- reasonable amount of creativity
- only an average skill level for composing and orchestrating itself

A valuable composer would IMHO have set his priorities vice-versa.

Calling people "wanna-be's" is a wrong argument, because the financial success of a composer is not the same as the value of his composing skills. That has always been the case in history, but it becomes even more so with technology moving as it does today. Whoever is saying something against that I am not willing to speak one more word. Because that person definitively is no composer in the sense that this word is defined by culture. He is only a composer in the literal latin meaning of the word: com-ponere - put things together.

On the other hand: of course skilled composers can use these products in a way, they still do their job (composing). Personally, I will probably purchase this in some future Komplete 9 Update, so it will practically be a no-brainer.

But in the end it is always like that: the more you put music together of pre-made elements like these, the more you will loose your abilities to "imagine and invent music" in your head. You will more and more become kind of a DJ, who knows his record collection and has skills to combine them. I have no disrespect for DJs at all! But I insist: A DJ is NOT a composer!

One of my biggest employees would have tons of more jobs for me, if the current practice on TV wouldn't be mostly library based underscore. It is cheaper, it is quicker and those TV-gauy may change their mind within a day. I am very certain: in the future we will see networks hire one or two guy to "compose" 99% of their music in-house with tools like this (NI-Action Strings). They will be exactly those kind of DJs I was just talking about. Certainly, even that won't be the death of composing itself. But it WILL be another lost job possibility for real composers just for the sake marketing and sales. And it will be another day, where art and creativity will be lost to our society by a small degree more again. All these steps are small steps, but they completely change humanity over the years. I wouldn't agree with those who argue, everything was better in the past, in the future everything is getting worse. But there is no way, that money only is more and more the only ruling factor in our society. And that is something I will fight till death.


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## adg21 (Oct 11, 2012)

leafInTheWind @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> Paulcote, I'm quite dissapointed in your IQ of 15 comment. May I suggest checking out some game composers such as


Frankly who cares what this guy Paul says, he doesn't deserve people showing him where to find good game music just ignore him, his comments are purely idiotic.


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## Waywyn (Oct 11, 2012)

leafInTheWind @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> Paulcote, I'm quite dissapointed in your IQ of 15 comment. May I suggest checking out some game composers such as
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobuo_Uematsu
> The grandfather of FF music. I'll be at the Royal Albert Hall on the 2nd of november at Distant Worlds to listen to the Royal Philharmonic play my favourites. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN6q1q6mynI (To Zanarkand) is one of my favourite compositions. Looking forward to distant worlds, nothing like hearing 8 bit 80s music re-orchestrated for full orchestra, and having synth solos replaced by real opera singers for the FF6 opera scene.
> ...



I really appreciate your (and everyone elses efforts) to speak for the gaming world (and also for Dynamedion).

However, I am convinced even if 99% of the forum would speak pro games, there would be 10 of the most famous reliable scientists delivering tests and behaviour studies of gamers and the gaming world in general. He could spend time with gamers, game composers and people from the industry and so on. It would be of no use. Even if a possible god would come down, clarifying that his views on the gaming world is somewhat distorted and prejudical, it wouldn't change anything!

He is either a troll laughing his a** off by seeing all the reactions to his posts or just a bitter conservative guy, claiming to have the right to define what makes more sense and what not.


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## jamwerks (Oct 11, 2012)

Composer? Times and tools change so language needs to also. Extensive use of these kinds of elements makes you more of a "remixer" than a composer. There's a place for both...


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## germancomponist (Oct 11, 2012)

Alex Cuervo @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> One of my favorite things about this website is watching a bunch of so called professionals relentlessly try to impress or outdo each other by publicly dumping on one potential client after another. And then these babies complain that amateurs can do their job now. Actually, it's because these so called amateurs love the mediums they create for more than their need to be above it all.



+1

And then some people throw everything upside down, loops = sequencer = samples = modern composing...?
When I do not like pre recorded loops, this not means that I do not like samples and sequencers. Very funny!

The main reason why I do not like pre recorded loops is that everything more and more sounds the same. That's my personal opinion. No more and no less.


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## germancomponist (Oct 11, 2012)

jamwerks @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> Composer? Times and tools change so language needs to also. Extensive use of these kinds of elements makes you more of a "remixer" than a composer. There's a place for both...



Yeah, exactly the better word to describe it.


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## Waywyn (Oct 11, 2012)

germancomponist @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> Alex Cuervo @ Thu Oct 11 said:
> 
> 
> > One of my favorite things about this website is watching a bunch of so called professionals relentlessly try to impress or outdo each other by publicly dumping on one potential client after another. And then these babies complain that amateurs can do their job now. Actually, it's because these so called amateurs love the mediums they create for more than their need to be above it all.
> ...



Seriously, it is really amusing how you go Romney on yourself by simply taking all statements from yourself and others, mix them up and create the fitting arguments you want to see. As far as I can read noone put these things into your mouth. Noone here said, that if you don't like loops, you don't like sequencers.

Please don't get me wrong, but to me it once more seems that your little language barries lets appear things in a different light. If you are getting into these kind of discussions it would at least be healthy to clearly understand what other people are writing! Sorry, I am not perfect, but there is a huge difference between really understanding a foreign language or claiming to understand it!

Another thing is, you always talk and talk. I mean there is nothing wrong with just talking and blah-ing. I do it a lot, especially in my tut videos! However, shouldn't you have some kind of proof that "EVERYTHING more and more sounds the same"? Where are your references? Your findings? Where is the proof and the evidence on this? I would go that far and say that if you go through my portfolio you maybe would find 50% loops in there, but on the other 50% you would be wrong though by claiming I used loops whereas I simply created my own percussion arrangement!

Or to make it short and written in Genglish (german+english):
 
You lean you but very far out of the window!


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## Justus (Oct 11, 2012)

germancomponist @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> The main reason why I do not like pre recorded loops is that everything more and more sounds the same.



Loops aren't the problem, they are a symptom. There is a new approach in making music today, that started with the advent of synths and sequencers.
Loops and Phrases are only the the next logical step.

Music always sounds the same in one specific era. Listen to 80s Pop or music of the Classical Period.


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## rpaillot (Oct 11, 2012)

I'm really impressed how they achieved such a precise and tight timing with action strings , even with a good orchestra those phrases are usually a nightmare to record :D


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## Waywyn (Oct 11, 2012)

rpaillot @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> I'm really impressed how they achieved such a precise and tight timing with action strings , even with a good orchestra those phrases are usually a nightmare to record :D



I actually have to disagree with this. Even though I did not participate on every orchestra session my music was recorded, I could always clearly hear that a good orchestra can play this freightening accurate.

In my opinion a good orchestra (or even an excellent one) is not necessarily a good orchestra. Why? Simply because many excellent orchestras do not work with click but just with a conductor therefore free tempo. Tightness was never a matter, but so does a good orchestra care which has to play a lot of movie stuff or simply with a click track ... and the more an orchestra plays with click or absolute locked tempo the more it gets trained towards tightness.


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## germancomponist (Oct 11, 2012)

Waywyn @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> Seriously, it is really amusing how you go Romney on yourself by simply taking all statements from yourself and others, mix them up and create the fitting arguments you want to see. As far as I can read noone put these things into your mouth. Noone here said, that if you don't like loops, you don't like sequencers.
> 
> Please don't get me wrong, but to me it once more seems that your little language barries lets appear things in a different light. If you are getting into these kind of discussions it would at least be healthy to clearly understand what other people are writing! Sorry, I am not perfect, but there is a huge difference between really understanding a foreign language or claiming to understand it!
> 
> ...





> Gunther, you posted this video about how music has been made back then. To remember the past and how it is done today. Without loops, without sequencers, without samples.






> Oh, I am talking only about loops!
> 
> Sequencers and samples are good tools, loops are little compositions from other persons! This is a big different!



So I had totally misunderstood you? 

Ok. Back to work!


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## Waywyn (Oct 11, 2012)

Wow, you seriously do Romney yourself ... and again you pick another statement from me, which was in a totally different context. Sorry, this is just as poor as it gets!


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## FriFlo (Oct 11, 2012)

Wow, Alex! I am really impressed by how autocratic you are! Certainly Gunther is not as capable of speaking in english, as you are. But using the term "Romney yourself" clearly shows that you indeed live in some kind of fake internet reality. You are not an american, yet you use terms, as if you were one. 
But that only as a side-note. You clearly overestimate the value of your work based on the financial success you (or dynamedion) may have. That is where you take the pride from to judge people complaining about "the arts and creativity fading"? Really? By calling everybody who dares to oppose you a wanna-be? Clearly, then you should not demand from other people references, proofs and facts to make any point. The problem is, you speak from a different point of view, what music and value in society is to you, not accepting other view points and just bashing them. I am all for peace, good discussion and I think every coin has two sides. But I won't be silent, when someones like you thinks he is the champion of truth.


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## Waywyn (Oct 11, 2012)

FriFlo @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> Wow, Alex! I am really impressed by how autocratic you are! Certainly Gunther is not as capable of speaking in english, as you are. But using the term "Romney yourself" clearly shows that you indeed live in some kind of fake internet reality. You are not an american, yet you use terms, as if you were one.
> But that only as a side-note. You clearly overestimate the value of your work based on the financial success you (or dynamedion) may have. That is where you take the pride from to judge people complaining about "the arts and creativity fading"? Really? By calling everybody who dares to oppose you a wanna-be? Clearly, then you should not demand from other people references, proofs and facts to make any point. The problem is, you speak from a different point of view, what music and value in society is to you, not accepting other view points and just bashing them. I am all for peace, good discussion and I think every coin has two sides. But I won't be silent, when someones like you thinks he is the champion of truth.



FriFlo,

with all kinds of respect, but I was using the term Romney yourself, due to his flipflopping technique. One day making a statement, the other making another statement reverting the first, the next day selling a statement as if it were a fact, then mixing it all up and flip flop it again. Is this fair? It is not the first time it happened .. and not just with me!

I don't understand why I have to be an American to know what Romney is doing?
I am just saying that Gunther is taking stuff completely out of context from a completely different post (or even topic, or even a completely different website, social network or forum) and mixes it up with something else. Not necesarily in this discussion, but it happened before. I am all for a fair discussion but if someone comes along and arranges statements as randomly cutting and stitchting together quotes from 20 different daily papers throughout a full month, something is off. Not to start from publishing private messages to him in public! Sorry, NOGO!

Also I never ranted about his english, I am just saying that if one gets into a discussion like this (which actually got pretty deep) one should also understand what he or others is writing, no?

Pardon me if I sometimes behave like an American. I know I am German but I spent a year over in L.A. and probably something snuck in there, cool?


"But that only as a side-note. You clearly overestimate the value of your work based on the financial success you (or dynamedion) may have. That is where you take the pride from to judge people complaining about "the arts and creativity fading"? Really? By calling everybody who dares to oppose you a wanna-be? Clearly, then you should not demand from other people references, proofs and facts to make any point. The problem is, you speak from a different point of view, what music and value in society is to you, not accepting other view points and just bashing them. I am all for peace, good discussion and I think every coin has two sides. But I won't be silent, when someones like you thinks he is the champion of truth."

I am not sure to what exactly you point, but I think you refer to the fact that I asked Gunther about the evidence on why he stated: everything starts to sound the same? Please give me a hint!


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## dedersen (Oct 11, 2012)

Wow. That is a lot of VERY different content in a single thread.

I'm a bit disappointed to find out that my IQ is below 15, honestly.


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## mushanga (Oct 11, 2012)

Dan-Jay @ Thu 11 Oct said:


> FIFA 13 =o That improves my day!



+1 ....love this game!!!!


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## George Caplan (Oct 11, 2012)

FriFlo @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> Wow, Alex! I am really impressed by how autocratic you are! Certainly Gunther is not as capable of speaking in english, as you are. But using the term "Romney yourself" clearly shows that you indeed live in some kind of fake internet reality. You are not an american, yet you use terms, as if you were one.
> But that only as a side-note. You clearly overestimate the value of your work based on the financial success you (or dynamedion) may have. That is where you take the pride from to judge people complaining about "the arts and creativity fading"? Really? By calling everybody who dares to oppose you a wanna-be? Clearly, then you should not demand from other people references, proofs and facts to make any point. The problem is, you speak from a different point of view, what music and value in society is to you, not accepting other view points and just bashing them. I am all for peace, good discussion and I think every coin has two sides. But I won't be silent, when someones like you thinks he is the champion of truth.



i tell ya i read this last night because i always read about new libraries although i dont understand them totally and get embarrassed about asking questions. its 7am here and just before i go out i want to say say that some of the responses to an obvious dislike of computer games are disappointing. this guy from germany who keeps on using americanisms is making me cringe.

i have made money and lost quite bit more on games companies. apart from that i wouldnt go near one myself far too much energy for nothing returned intellectually. most games ive seen maybe 99% are based on fruitless and random violence and we saw with family friends not so along ago in the uk a major league problem with one of their children caused by games which ended badly put it that way. ive learnt nothing about this library from this thread except there are some very juvenile kids on this forum who obviously cant take critique and seem to feel threatened by the least thing.

so i watched the video early this morning and one thing that made me laugh right out loud was when the guy says you dont need to know anything about orchestras or orchestration to use this thing. you got that right buddy by the looks of it.


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## mark812 (Oct 11, 2012)

orchestranova @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Thu 11 Oct said:
> 
> 
> > FIFA 13 =o That improves my day!
> ...



Meh..http://www.officialplaystationmagazine.co.uk/2012/07/24/pes-2013-preview-six-things-it-does-better-than-fifa-13/ (PES) rules.


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## Bunford (Oct 11, 2012)

To me, the negativity seems seems irrational and a reaction against technological developments that simply make things easier FOR SOME PEOPLE, IN SOME SITUATIONS. Looking at it, it is ironic in a virtual instruments composition forum people are negative about a technological advancement/aid in creating music. Exactly the same reaction to AutoTune, Melodyne etc in recent years, and even further back the invention of the electric guitar had the same reaction.

Music technology evolves to cater for certain markets. Whereas this is not groundbreaking stuff, it will serve to get people onboard and learn/compose things quicker in their own specific situations. There is a market for it as some people do/can not learn music theory and want quick results in today's society of get-things-quick. However, anything that encourages musical creativity and helps people through that process, even if it does lend a HUGE helping hand, can only be a good thing.

After all, I bet you've all used score sheets to digitally recreate music specific to your tastes/needs. No difference really, other than score sheets have evolved into phrase libraries in this instance and you don't need to copy and input the score that you're trying to recreate/need.

Just my opinion on it. Even though I will not be buying or using it myself as I prefer to try and write and work out my own stuff.


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## Bunford (Oct 11, 2012)

mark812 @ Thu 11 Oct said:


> orchestranova @ Thu Oct 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Dan-Jay @ Thu 11 Oct said:
> ...



PES got very average about 3 years ago. I converted to FIFA and never looked back.

If there is a PS3 FIFA contingency here, add Bunford as a friend pn PSN for some online matches :D


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## Waywyn (Oct 11, 2012)

FriFlo @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> But that only as a side-note. You clearly overestimate the value of your work based on the financial success you (or dynamedion) may have. That is where you take the pride from to judge people complaining about "the arts and creativity fading"? Really? By calling everybody who dares to oppose you a wanna-be? Clearly, then you should not demand from other people references, proofs and facts to make any point. The problem is, you speak from a different point of view, what music and value in society is to you, not accepting other view points and just bashing them. I am all for peace, good discussion and I think every coin has two sides. But I won't be silent, when someones like you thinks he is the champion of truth.



FriFlo, I think I know where you coming from, but please let me clarify something. I am all for free speech, but to be honest to me it feels that Vi Control recently got a little bit more like: Composers bashing products, instead of composers helping composers.

To be honest I might underlie a total wrong impression but to me everytime I visit this place, it feels like I more and more see many posts of products simply being bashed ... and when reading those rant comments it always feels as if these guys writing this who don't work in the industry anyway, ... and even IF, it feels like they are afraid if a "loop" library could take away their gig? Or if someone buying this lib could actually composer music!

So to set this right, I am not saying that all people who oppose my opinion are wanna be's or don't even know what they do or that I look down to them in a way, only because I can call myself happy to have music as my main profession. This is not true and if it came over like this, I am seriusly terribly sorry!

However, it is just my impression that bashing is more easy than actually being in the situation of composing 10 minutes during one or two days of the weekend for a project which might pay the rent for three people inside your team and pay your own rent and food ... and you were pretty happy to have a timesaver at hand enabling you to finish right on time. If someone just went through this situation once, he can clearly comprehend.


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## Justus (Oct 11, 2012)

dedersen @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> I'm a bit disappointed to find out that my IQ is below 15, honestly.



Same here.


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## FriFlo (Oct 11, 2012)

Alex,

let's forget about the Romney thing. It was just a side note as mentioned. I do know what it means and happen to watch international politics (and from time to time the colbert report) myself. It just irritates me when fellow europeans seem to drift so far off their roots and own problems that there language gets polluted by things they gather rom the internet, rather than using terms based on their own experiences. I just know to many people that keep discussing pseudo intellectual about american politics, before even having a clue what is going on in their own country. I am not saying you are of that kind, it just reminded me of those people, hence, the side note ...

Back to what is my actual problem with your statements:


> Well put! ... I also noticed that a lot (of course not all) who always complain, are actually not even daytime/fulltime composers, but just "wanna be's" or pretending to be ... who are actually a bit difference to the passionate hobby composer by the way!



That is my problem. In every discussion about things important to me, like value of music (for the lack of a better term for it) I see hordes of people bashing every well-thought and explained analysis of how our society is changing in a negative direction just with irrational one-shot phrases like this. Well, if you believe loop libraries and ready-made FX don't destroy the creation by human, I will not attack you for having a different point of view. But neither will I accept, when someone tries to dismantle a valid argument based on deep thoughts by just saying things like "they are just jealous" or "hobbyist". In fact, music and all arts have (or don't have) a value for our society, that cannot be measured by their financial success!

Think of it this way: John Williams having grown up in our times could have been completely un-successfull, because he might not have been the right guy to deal with all the technicalities that are needed to be in business today. Maybe you can admit, that there might be some composers here complaining about the nemesis of good music and they could not make a living out of music, but at the same time be way better composers than you or me. I would not like to have missed e.g. Stravinsky's work, just because he might have problems to deal with his plugins! Yet, composing for media today is more about dealing with the tools right and being quick, than it is about being a great composer. If you oppose to this, than please bring good arguments. Otherwise, I cannot understand why you are fond of the very tools that will destroy almost all job opportunities for "real composers" and leave it all to the remixing-guys.
I am not saying all of this is the fault of the industry (NI in this case). It is more a general problem of our whole society ...


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## Waywyn (Oct 11, 2012)

FriFlo @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> Alex,
> 
> let's forget about the Romney thing. It was just a side note as mentioned. I do know what it means and happen to watch international politics (and from time to time the colbert report) myself. It just irritates me when fellow europeans seem to drift so far off their roots and own problems that there language gets polluted by things they gather rom the internet, rather than using terms based on their own experiences. I just know to many people that keep discussing pseudo intellectual about american politics, before even having a clue what is going on in their own country. I am not saying you are of that kind, it just reminded me of those people, hence, the side note ...
> 
> ...



Hey, I think we just crossposted. I hope my previous comments explains it all.
Regarding Romney, thing is am not the political brightest candle on the cake, but I actually follow a lot whats going on in either our country but also in the U.S.
I got a few relatives over there and my wife too and as mentioned before I was living in L.A. for a little while .. and this time really has grown close to my heart since it was just an intense music study! However, I understand the wackoo factor when reading stuff like I used from a German! :D


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## FriFlo (Oct 11, 2012)

Ok, I guess we are good!


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## Waywyn (Oct 11, 2012)

FriFlo @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> Ok, I guess we are good!



=o


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## Resoded (Oct 11, 2012)

I have to say, as much as I love this forum, these turds that pop up now and then are just unnecessary.

* An amateur composer will sound like an amateur composer no matter what libraries they have at their disposal.

* Yes, technology moves forward and composing for orchestra (or at least something emulating it) is no longer reserved for the rich and gifted. No matter how much this angers you.

* I love Dynamedion. The score for the video game Crysis 2 is one of my favorite next to the big name composers.

* I will not buy the action strings simply because I don't want to take the lazy road when learning, but if I was working full time as a composer, I bet this is a great time saver.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Oct 11, 2012)

The moderators are receiving reports for posts in this thread, so guys, please stop bashing each other and return to the original topic. 

V.I. Control will not tolerate personal attacks and foul language.

Thank you


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## nickhmusic (Oct 11, 2012)

wow, and I came to this forum wondering why I didn't join in more.

Brutal :shock: 

Anyway, I think they are serviceable sounds, well-recorded and certainly a technological advancement from what was available even 3 years ago. Whether it is good to use phrases like this, well - erm, I'm not getting into that Vietnam.

o-[][]-o


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## germancomponist (Oct 11, 2012)

George Caplan @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> ... so i watched the video early this morning and one thing that made me laugh right out loud was when the guy says you dont need to know anything about orchestras or orchestration to use this thing. you got that right buddy by the looks of it.



After I saw this I started this thread.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Oct 11, 2012)

Well, I play may be one game in about 4 months?

I like playing Topspin and FIFA 2012 on PS3 in between when I am working sometimes. I find, a sport-driven game (perhaps even car racing games) does sort of defrags your brain.

I rarely find time to play the big games like Uncharted etc. But, I do play them may be one game every quarter of the year? This is because while I am in the middle of a project, I cant afford to get immersed into the game world! But yes, some games do have that power!

However, I thought Portal 2 was one of the most intelligent and well thought game I had played in years. Excellent stuff.

I am kind of sick of the military based games. I like strategy games a lot too. Huge fan of SimCity, Civilization and Red Alert was fun as always actually. I played Red Alert even as recent as last year I think. Great game, I hope they come out with a new one.

Multiplayer is nice and back in University, this was great! Rarely find time to do it now.


Best,

Tanuj.


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## audiot (Oct 11, 2012)

Is this thread really about a sample library?

The whitewash of civility is thin. Irritating are the continued insults, the bashing (nationalism like "the Germans" vs. XYZ; amateurs vs. pros) but accompanied at the same time by the simulation of politeness. Sort of: "You are a f$§"#*g b()/&§d - but don't take this statement personal" - "You d%&$§d a§§!()e - but with the utmost respect" and so on. Is this meant by "freedom of speech"? But would you dare to say exactly the same face-to-face? Think about the possible consequences for 24 hours before replying "YES!" And many mistake "profession" for "professionalism" -- but a pro can act amateurish and vice versa.

We are all puppets and our attitudes and behaviours are neither unique nor individual. It has been analyzed by so many authors (I won't drop names because most of you haven't even heard about them - a bit arrogant, huh? 8) But I apologize cordially and say this with the utmost respect - don't take it personal :D 

Maybe I should invite all of you to Switzerland, which claims to be neutral, then we hire a place where you all can beat up each other - afterwards we will drink coke and beer, have some barbecue - before visiting our dentists :lol:
We will make a video of this event, some of you will compose the music with action strings or live orchestra, others will program a game in the style of Duke Nukem. That would be hilarious.

Enjoy a peaceful Christmas ~o) 
Tom


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## Inductance (Oct 11, 2012)

paulcole @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> I just explained what intelligent adults think about video games. It's a moronic pastime and you need to understand that sooner rather than later.



Hm, I can think of worse pastimes. Like watching films or listening to music--or listening to film music! Take away the film and the music and all you're really doing is sitting.



Ed @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> You know you could say the exact same thing about films and film music, right?



Ha! You beat me to it!


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## George Caplan (Oct 11, 2012)

germancomponist @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> George Caplan @ Thu Oct 11 said:
> 
> 
> > ... so i watched the video early this morning and one thing that made me laugh right out loud was when the guy says you dont need to know anything about orchestras or orchestration to use this thing. you got that right buddy by the looks of it.
> ...



i think thats the stand out moment in the video and says quite a bit. you can see why there are factional disputes if you will over something as irrelevant as this. reading this and seeing grown men spend their time playing computer games and admitting to it makes me wonder if i came to the right place to find out about music making at home as an amateur player. i would say not and i wish to sign out if thats possible and remove my details if anyone would be good enough to point me to where i can do that id be grateful. some of the people here are disgraceful and i dont want part of that.


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## Andreas Moisa (Oct 11, 2012)

Back to topic. I can imagine that the library will be awesome for what it does and there is nothing wrong with using the best tools available. While Albion's Strings sound great it's nearly impossible to write real tight action staccatos and if you try this you waste time. Orchestral String Runs are another great tool to create authentic string scoring devices and the results are superior to regular multi samples. I hope that developers continue to make specialized tools for a certain purpose. 8Dio does it in a certain way with Adagio, where you have different legatos - only that Adagio brings as many problems as it offers solutions. Why not use libraries that only do one thing very well instead of doing everything halfbaked?


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## Hannes_F (Oct 11, 2012)

Guys, thank you for the game recommendations. I'll try to find some time for a try because I am really interested in finding out what it is that moves you so strongly.

Having listended to the product site I think I like the sound and the idea. It sounds much more like something I could enjoy listening to as an underscore than the outcome of many other products, that is all I can say.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 11, 2012)

I think that the ability to understand what the director really wants for given scenes is as important as any other skill, and one that is not matched with software... yet. This skill involves a number of intangibles, like filling in the blanks when the director is not quite sure of what will work.


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## Dan Mott (Oct 11, 2012)

Bunford @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> mark812 @ Thu 11 Oct said:
> 
> 
> > orchestranova @ Thu Oct 11 said:
> ...



You're on PAL!


I think PES looks better, but it plays so robotic. They move like robots and you hold X to tackle, which is easy. I played that game on the hardest and I was still awesome. However FIFA actually has a tackle button which takes skill. If PES 11 had those features, I might have chosen it.


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## ChrisAxia (Oct 11, 2012)

Hey guys & girls,

I've just skimmed through this thread. Disappointing to see some of the 'discussion' going on here. To get back on topic. I've listened to most of the demos, and where these strings really work is in the 'all-out action' bits, where the strings are really 'going for it'. I think it would be difficult to match that realism with other libraries. 

However, on demos that were more 'gentle', I believe I could have got a more 'organic' result with some of my current libraries, possibly because these Action strings have been recorded with too few dynamic levels. 

Does anyone else hear this or is it only me?

~Chris


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## Craig Sharmat (Oct 11, 2012)

There were similar arguments when Cineorch came out, press a button and you are done. These arguments have been going on for yrs and will continue as new products enter the market. As a composer who has had a fair amount of training I think how can i overlay these in a way that could be unique? Flat 5 lines or triad figures over certain poly roots etc. There are always ways to be creative. I remember Chris Beck's scores to Buffy and he creatively melded phrases in an extremely musical way, it's ones own creative disposition and talent which determines how well things will sound. The only caveat is if the library is poorly constructed.

On the subject of games, how many people would look down on a 70 year old playing chess? Chess has a long history and maybe that leaves an impression that being a chess player is acceptable. It's still a game in the end.


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## Craig Sharmat (Oct 11, 2012)

ChrisAxia @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> Hey guys & girls,
> 
> I've just skimmed through this thread. Disappointing to see some of the 'discussion' going on here. To get back on topic. I've listened to most of the demos, and where these strings really work is in the 'all-out action' bits, where the strings are really 'going for it'. I think it would be difficult to match that realism with other libraries.
> 
> ...



Chris I hear that and some harshness to some of the strings, but my guess there are ways around this with some controls and using them with your current libs. Also their appears to be 2 mic positions, not sure that will solve it. It would be nice to get a bit more real user feedback. I may pick this up shortly or wait to see if it shows up in komplete.


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## Ganvai (Oct 11, 2012)

Craig Sharmat @ 11th October 2012 said:


> I remember Chris Beck's scores to Buffy and he creatively melded phrases in an extremely musical way



Funny, I mentioned the same score in another forum with the same topic. 

I think it's the same with loops as with hammer and chisel. Some people just make holes into a wall with it, some people just hurt themself when they work with it and Michelangelo created his "David"-Statue...

So you see, no _real composer_ has to fear us _hobby composers_ just because a new loop-sample-lib is out. Loop-Collections exist since decades and there have been also great compositions the last years  and I'm sure there will be great compositions in the future...

Just don't worry so much about what others do, make some music 0oD 

But maybe there is one talented hobby composer out there... then you should run like hell :mrgreen: 

Greetings, Jan

PS: Just to make it clear, the last sentence was a joke :wink:


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## dpasdernick (Oct 11, 2012)

Daryl @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> I have no dog in this game discussion, except to say that I think that the majority of the time it's a generational thing. I did play some games in my late teens and early twenties, but then found different things to do as I got older. Now the thought of sitting down twiddling my thumbs playing a video game seems boring to me, compared with playing a sport, for example. I'm sure that a lot of the people on this forum who play games at the moment will do it less and less as they get older. I hesitate to use the phrase "grow out of it", but that's basically what it is.
> 
> I think what I'm really saying is that every part of your life has different likes and dislikes, and that's exactly as it should be.
> 
> D



I agree with Daryl. My kids are into video games and ask me to play but when I do I find I get super bored super fast. I've even tried buying a few myself that I thought I would be interested in but I can't stay engaged. 

I do think that people go through phases in their lifetime where they spend time playing video games, maybe get into wine making, or jogging. 

I don't think there's a clear answer here. I personally find video games a huge time suck and time is a pretty precious commodity when it comes to a full time job, family, MUSIC!, shopping for software... I don't begrudge anybody playing video games It's just my cup of tea. I've also heard that there are a small number of engines that game devolpers build upon (sports themes, hunt for crap, shoot 'em up, etc) This, I assume, is all due to the economics of building the best game they can without a ton of R&D. I suppose the movie industry is the same. A few tried and true plots that they just dress up in different costumes... But once in a while a gem does pop out.


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## silenceworks (Oct 11, 2012)

paulcole @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> Anyone seriously suggesting that you actually have 'to play' a loops library needs to pay a quick visit to any music college in the country. Or a psychiatrist. I own Vivace and I certainly never felt like I was playing it.
> 
> This is a great library for games writers. Why? Because who seriously listens to game music with an IQ of over 15? So I think this works as a library on that level and that has to be a good thing.



I bow in awe of your IQ over 15 sir, you have set a new standard for IQ level of 16.


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## audiot (Oct 11, 2012)

germancomponist @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> George Caplan @ Thu Oct 11 said:
> 
> 
> > ... so i watched the video early this morning and one thing that made me laugh right out loud was when the guy says you dont need to know anything about orchestras or orchestration to use this thing. you got that right buddy by the looks of it.
> ...



Just checked the video (again): both of you misquote, don't you? At least you insinuate.
He says (0:55): "... the thing I really love about action strings is how fast you can convert your ideas into a bold string arrangement even without deep knowledge of orchestration or theory."

It's the painter which paints the picture not the paint. It's just a tool, nothing more.


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## dpasdernick (Oct 11, 2012)

One other quick observation.

Yes a crappy composer with a bunch of loops is never going to make better music that a dude that knows his stuff and can wield a real orchestra. The problem I have faced in the past is that the clients sometimes can't hear the difference, or worse, don't care.

I don't think there are too many of us that are writing music full time (normal hours) and cashing in hugely. The market is wicked saturated with pros like you, hobbyists like me, needle drop, garage band, etc, etc.

I've lost gigs to guys with loops before. Maybe I suck? Maybe the client was inpressed that the other guy could whip out 10 pieces of crap with Sonicfire in 10 minutes? ybe the budget couldn't support 8 hours to write a custom piece of music?

So yes, the pros can grab a loop or two and integrate it into their lovely composition. Good music will not go away but neither will the cleints that think music is supposed to be fclose to free (because it's so fun right?) and want the cheapest thing available.

2 cents.


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## Ian Dorsch (Oct 11, 2012)

dpasdernick @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> I've also heard that there are a small number of engines that game devolpers build upon (sports themes, hunt for crap, shoot 'em up, etc) This, I assume, is all due to the economics of building the best game they can without a ton of R&D. I suppose the movie industry is the same. A few tried and true plots that they just dress up in different costumes... But once in a while a gem does pop out.



I realize this is a little off-topic, but this isn't really the case, at least not the way you understand it. There are some established game engines such as Unreal or Unity, but all they really are is a technical framework on which to build your game. It's akin to a composer using Cubase or Logic or Sonar, rather than hiring coders to program your DAW from scratch.

To use the Unreal Engine--maybe the most widely used "shooter" engine--as an example, here is an in-engine shot from one of Unreal's most visible titles, Gears of War 3:
http://pnmedia.gamespy.com/planetgearso ... hot-08.jpg

And here is an in-engine shot from Airborn, an Unreal Engine game I'm working on:
http://www.mvirks.com/airborn/1508_01.jpg

As you can see, it's clearly not the same thing dressed up in different costumes.


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## jcs88 (Oct 11, 2012)

I saw this announcement today and love it. It's nothing more than a fancy version of AudioBro's A.R.T - I don't know if you can put your exact rhythms in with Action Strings, but when I can afford it I'll grab it. Sure, I could do it piece by piece and score it all out, but if I'm doing a stock track or an iphone game that needs some chugging strings..these sound great and make it work quickly. I still have to choose the chords, the rhythms. Cineorch (which I picked up today :D ), A.R.T, Action Strings..just tools to speed things up. It's about choice.


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## Darthmorphling (Oct 11, 2012)

George Caplan @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> germancomponist @ Thu Oct 11 said:
> 
> 
> > George Caplan @ Thu Oct 11 said:
> ...



This forum is full of many talented composers, both professional and amateur. Many of which play video games, and many who do not. If you are going to leave a forum because, in your opinion, grown men playing video games is a waste of time, then you are robbing yourself of all that this forum can provide you. 

I am a hobbyist and have learned a great deal from this forum and the many "game playing" composers here.

However, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

P.S. As a game suggestion, I would say that Portal 2 may be the best game for a non gamer to try. It will suck you in with the humorous dialogue and some of the puzzles are quite challenging. There were a couple of levels where I was completely stuck and my son, who hadn't played the game figured it out rather quickly.


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## Ed (Oct 11, 2012)

Out of interest, what is the difference between something like this library and working with an instrumentalist that improvises material that you use for your music? Thomas Newman does that all the time. The only difference is that other people dont have access to those sounds, but practically speaking its the same in that you didnt compose that particular thing.

I also think its a little odd some people talk about composing and "DJing" as if its black and white. That if you use some loop or phrase it automatically makes you a "DJ" and not a composer, which I guess makes Thomas Newman a DJ for the same reason I mentioned above. If I use a loop or a phrase sample in my music, does that invalidate all the composition I just put into the rest of it?

This library isnt a serious orchestral library, its a production tool, in the same way as you might hire an instrumentalist and get him to record a bunch of phrases and FX etc and use that in your music.


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## Ed (Oct 11, 2012)

George Caplan @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> some of the people here are disgraceful and i dont want part of that.



You know what I find disgraceful? Crapping on an entire medium you evidently only have the barest superficial grasp of, and calling the people who like games and game music moronic low IQ twats that dont care about real art and literature. And you have the cheek to say the response to this person is "disgraceful"? I think the response has been more like baby butterflies kissing your face compared to the response he deserved. The only reason you support him is because you apparently have an equally idiotic conception of games yourself, I wonder just how extreme Paul would have had to have gotten to make you think twice about defending him. Pretty much everything Paul said could be said about films and film music and I in fact have heard said about it in various ways over the years, but something tells me you might have a problem with that. It would have been different if he had left some room for debate or disagreement, but no, games are all a waste of time, contain no artistic worth and everyone who likes games is a complete idiot.

The forum would certainly be a better place without either of you, I hope you make good on your word and do everyone a favour and find somewhere else to waste time on the internet o=<


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## JohnG (Oct 11, 2012)

Everyone needs to ease up / calm down here. A requirement of the forum is that we remain respectful. Rule 7 states:

"When posting, please maintain a respectful tone towards all members of this forum. If you cannot agree to disagree respectfully on a subject, please refrain from posting."

It is not proper to call other members morons or use other disparaging terms. Equally, it is not helpful to stoke or keep posting when in a temper, however provoked one might feel.

Thank you.


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## MacQ (Oct 11, 2012)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> I think that the ability to understand what the director really wants for given scenes is as important as any other skill, and one that is not matched with software... yet. This skill involves a number of intangibles, like filling in the blanks when the director is not quite sure of what will work.



I'll take this one step further to suggest that it's not music that gets you the gigs. It's client relationships and the perception of your experience in the industry. Not ability ... EXPERIENCE. 

If your music is adequate and you're a really fun guy to hang out with, you'll do well. I've heard it said that it's better to be shit on a hit than a hit on shit: if your music is terrible but the film does well ... you'll get more gigs based on your connection to that film than if you wrote a masterpiece for a film no one paid attention to.

Making your music 10x "better" isn't super useful. In fact, "better" is as meaningless a term as anything, since it's the source material that should inspire the music. Sometimes a simple drone + drum loop is what the story needs, what works best on a particular scene within the dramatic context of what happened before or what is about to happen. It's why I love working on films; I'm not looking at a blank page (or in my case, a blank Cubase session). I get to see picture, and the music writes itself based on that creative seed.

So, if not "better", I think "faster" should be the aim for all of us. And this tool and those like it provide that ability for certain kinds of music. Making more music in less time so you can spend more time with your family, or playing games, or learning a new tool tangentially related to your current skill (I'm learning After Effects a bit at a time), or ... whatever you do for your soul, whatever excites you.

I learned early on that you can't invest yourself into the music you make for commercial projects. You mustn't, in fact. The devastation that comes from pouring all of your emotions into a piece of music that is then just casually discarded by your client with an apathetic "what else have you got?" -- isn't worth it. So for me, I make music for the client, bending to whatever is asked of me, and I sing in choirs for my "soul". That works much better, and means I can deliver whatever and not take things too seriously.

Anyway, I think everyone should relax a bit. This library isn't going to let someone take your gig that wasn't already going to take your gig because of better positioning/nepotism/luck/swagger/etc, but it's not critical that you like this library either. As I said earlier in this thread, it's just another tool.

I've got a new time-saving tool coming soon for all of you TV/Film/Game composers, and hopefully it won't be greeted with such immediate and vitriolic disdain!  

~Stu


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## Daniel James (Oct 11, 2012)

I'll be totally honest. I am enjoying the passion around here right now.


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## doctornine (Oct 11, 2012)

Jeez, this seems to have stirred up a hornets nest as only a forum can.

As a relative newcomer here, though not a newcomer to the business of music, can I add an opinion here :

We're all having a massive argument over something that is basically a tool that we use in our business. These days, I write Library and nothing else.
So, am I going to buy a piece of kit that makes my job easier and faster ?
Of course I am. 

It beats the hell out of a wall of Akai's, Emu's 

~o)

Oh and BTW - I'm 40something and I wish I had more time for video games. But my avatar may give that away :wink:


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## Bunford (Oct 11, 2012)

People insulting game music and game music makers do realise Hans Zimmer has things like Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 and Crysis 2 in his repertoire?!

Also, with regard to insulting gamers, people do realise people are just different don't they? I'm 32 and love to play games on my PS3 to relax and have some escapism. I also class myself as a bit of a film buff, love listening to music, sound design, oil paint, write short stories, doing a music degree, love photography and my day job is as a nuclear and radioactive specialist within Government advising on emergency planning etc and health effects of different types of radioactive materials. 

However, because I like video games I'd be generalised in a negative way and have a low IQ?!?! Really?!?!

Some people are unbelievably intolerant of change or difference!

Relax people and accept people are just different.


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## gsilbers (Oct 11, 2012)

damn. lets lock this thread and open a new one for NI actions strings without the hate header


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## Darthmorphling (Oct 11, 2012)

Daniel James @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> I'll be totally honest. I am enjoying the passion around here right now.



I am sitting here while some students serve lunch detention. The only thing making it bearable is Daniel's music that he writes for games and film. 

Is it coincidence that you post and I am listening to "The Resistance" on Soundcloud?


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## Ed (Oct 11, 2012)

Bunford @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> People insulting game music and game music makers do realise Hans Zimmer has things like Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 and Crysis 2 in his repertoire?!



Tbf the people you're talking about probably have an equally low opinion of Hans Zimmer. But you can show them everything they'd ever ask for in game music quality but they will still not admit they are wrong about it because apparently people like Paul think games are so vapid and a waste of time that anything associated with it is necessarily as moronic and superficial as he thinks the games themselves are, no matter what.

People like George and Paul are no different than the guys who say film music is not proper music, worse in fact because games are much more varied than film, and more close-minded because they cant see how far its come in such a short time and lack the imagination to see where it could lead.


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## Rob Elliott (Oct 11, 2012)

Craig Sharmat @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> ChrisAxia @ Thu Oct 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Hey guys & girls,
> ...




It would be interesting to hear if there is a 'softer' side to this (MW or mics used). Anyone who picked this up care to post a brief example?

Thanks.


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## dpasdernick (Oct 11, 2012)

Ed @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> Out of interest, what is the difference between something like this library and working with an instrumentalist that improvises material that you use for your music? Thomas Newman does that all the time. The only difference is that other people dont have access to those sounds, but practically speaking its the same in that you didnt compose that particular thing.
> 
> I also think its a little odd some people talk about composing and "DJing" as if its black and white. That if you use some loop or phrase it automatically makes you a "DJ" and not a composer, which I guess makes Thomas Newman a DJ for the same reason I mentioned above. If I use a loop or a phrase sample in my music, does that invalidate all the composition I just put into the rest of it?
> 
> This library isnt a serious orchestral library, its a production tool, in the same way as you might hire an instrumentalist and get him to record a bunch of phrases and FX etc and use that in your music.



Ed,

In my totally humble opinion I this there is a major difference between this library and work with an instrumentalist. The library will paint you in to a corner at some point if you want to venture sonically somewhere that NI hasn't sampled. The instrumentalist can go anywhere you need to go at any given moment at any tempo in any key (except a drummer, they just play faster and use more cymbals depending upon how many women are in front of them. I miss playing the drums...)

I do know that using instruments like Stylus and Evolve, which contain loops, I seem to feel limited and find myself reaching for the same loops over and over because there's a certain flavor I gravitate towards. 

In no way does using a loop or two in a large custom composition negate the fact that you wrote the 99% of it. I just personally can't fathom grabbing a harmonic element (bass line, guitar riff, etc) and feel like it won't at some point bite me in the bum when I want to take the composition in another direction. 

(Of course i am but a simple monkey and am really all about more cymbals and women in 1980's spandex)


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## Ed (Oct 11, 2012)

dpasdernick @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> Ed,
> 
> In my totally humble opinion I this there is a major difference between this library and work with an instrumentalist. The library will paint you in to a corner at some point if you want to venture sonically somewhere that NI hasn't sampled. The instrumentalist can go anywhere you need to go at any given moment at any tempo in any key



Not so if you only have a certain amount of time to record a generalised library for personal use. Also, being able to tweak the phrase with something like melodyne or rework a drumloop with slices in RMX or something, or like you can do here change notes mid-phrase, is akin to asking a player to slightly alter their performance for you. But this after the recording tweaking doesnt seem to make a difference for people who hate loops and phrases, its just all or nothing, black and white. If you use loops and phrases you are a remixer or a DJ and not composing, while someone like Thomas Newman who says he will get a percussionist or other such instrumentalists and ask what they think they can bring to the part and get them to improvise a bunch of stuff. Sure, its more customised and its private, but its the same deal, he didnt write that percussion line that his instrumentalist played over the top, he didnt make that cool violin effect, or even custom sound design, or whatever it is. It also doesnt seem to bother anyone if you go record some instrumentalist or group of guys and ask them to make up a bunch of stuff for use in your music, so long as it isnt from a *public *library then its taboo and totally different for some reason.



> I do know that using instruments like Stylus and Evolve, which contain loops, I seem to feel limited and find myself reaching for the same loops over and over because there's a certain flavor I gravitate towards.



I dont like a lot of loops and phrases for precisely that, they limit you. Check something like Scoring Tools, thats severely limiting, now look at Action Strings, unless you "play" it you get a static line. I have a female pop vocal phrase library I bought maybe 6 months ago, lovely sound but I had to do mad repitching and timestretching to get it to really fit my track, but if they had recorded way more content that enabled me to really change the way I wanted to easily (such as Action Strings seems to let you do) then it would have been a lot easier to customise and sounded a lot better because of it. Its annoying when you cant cut up the slices in a loop and reorder them in something like Stylus, you are limited, again. 



> In no way does using a loop or two in a large custom composition negate the fact that you wrote the 99% of it. I just personally can't fathom grabbing a harmonic element (bass line, guitar riff, etc) and feel like it won't at some point bite me in the bum when I want to take the composition in another direction.



Quite true, as I say above, this is why I stay away from them as much as possible. I use them intelligently when I really need to. And normally I would really not consider a library like this for exactly this reason, but the fact that this seems like I can change such a lot about it makes it interesting again. I bought Spiritoso Cello by Zero-G and use it for one patch alone, the rhythms patch which is basically just straight and triplet quarter, 8th and 16th notes, no fancy rhythm just the same note over and over, but layer that under your own rhythms and boy does it make a difference. This library seems like a much better version of the same principle.


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## dog1978 (Oct 11, 2012)

Now you can know what you talk about.  I recorded the screen during trying / my first steps on Actions Strings:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC42mz8mzxY&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC42mz8m ... e=youtu.be)


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## Chriss Ons (Oct 11, 2012)

Ed @ 11th October said:


> I bought Spiritoso Cello by Zero-G (...) This library seems like a much better version of the same principle.



judging from the above video: nail on the head.


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## germancomponist (Oct 11, 2012)

Ed @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> ... while someone like Thomas Newman who says he will get a percussionist or other such instrumentalists what they think they can bring to the part and get them to improvise a bunch of stuff. Sure, its more customised and its private, but its the same deal, he didnt write that percussion line that his instrumentalist played over the top, he didnt make that cool violin effect, or even custom sound design, or whatever it is. It also doesnt seem to bother anyone if you go record some instrumentalist or group of guys and ask them to make up a bunch of stuff for use in your music, so long as it isnt from a *public *library then its taboo and totally different for some reason.



This exactly is my point, Ed!

It is not only more customised, it is 100% customised. And a public library is not customised, but you have to customize your writing. And the result will be that more and more scores nearly will sound the same. Depends on how many libs of this are sold.

o/~


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## Ed (Oct 11, 2012)

germancomponist @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> This exactly is my point, Ed!
> 
> It is not only more customised, it is 100% customised. And a public library is not customised, but you have to customize your writing. And the result will be that more and more scores nearly will sound the same.



You yourself said your problem with a loop and a phrase is that you did not write it or produce it, someone else did. But how is that is different to getting an instrumentalist to improvise some stuff for your personal private library? Even if you say, _hay can you please linger on that second and third note a bit more_, thats just the same as using something like melodyne to slightly extend those notes in the same way. 

Either way, you did not write it, so you cannot remain consistent and say this argument is the reason why you dislike loops and phrases. Getting a bunch of private improvisations from instrumentalists and stitching them together like a remixer is practically speaking just as lazy doing so with public libraries of a similar nature, its just no one will notice because no one but you will have access to the sounds. 

As far as I see the only argument you have that remains consistent is because music can risk sounding like everyone else because everyone has access to the sounds (in theory). This is a GOOD criticism and I agree with it, but then we're back to creativity. The more creative you are and the more customisable and how easy the library allows you to get it to play what you want it to play, the more it wont sound like someone else with the same library.





> depends on how many libs of this are sold. o/~



The only "bad" thing about this lib is the actual melodic phrases, of which there appears to be very little. Mostly it just seems like various rhythms on one key. Im mostly interested in one notes played over and over, not even a special pattern.

I see very little chance of everyone sounding the same, except maybe we'll have more music with short string rhythms and they will sound a bit better, because as we all know, before this library not many people used these kinds of rhythms in their music... lol


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## jleckie (Oct 11, 2012)

These libraries seem even more limiting in another not-discussed-so-far way. They offer a little of everything and not enough of one thing. If your scoring a sword and sorcery film and you have 3 loops to choose from whats the point?

Sonokinetic had the right idea in trying to dedicate an entire library to one genre but the offerings in say a VIVACE are still not enough to do an entire film in that genre.


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## Ed (Oct 11, 2012)

Vivace from what Ive seen seems very limited and severely limited compared with Action Strings.

Jay, I still find a massive use out of just the single cello rhythms patch in Spiritoso, so having 3 versions of that would be more than enough for a whole score. It really depends on how deeply you're relying on stuff like this. If its your only strings, you might end up running out of material sooner than you'd like, even if you can customise it to the degree you appear to be able to. Even just being able to add something like this in the background of something you already wrote can make a big difference.


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## germancomponist (Oct 11, 2012)

Josquin @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> Ed @ 11th October said:
> 
> 
> > I bought Spiritoso Cello by Zero-G (...) This library seems like a much better version of the same principle.
> ...



I have watched and listend. The sound of the lib is very good to my ears.

How many Kontakt instances would you need if you want all articulations organize in your template? For any articulation you need a new instrument. Sure, you can also work with keyswitches, but.....?

How will your score sheet look like?

And when you want to edit something....? 

Maybe I am wrong and there will be a better workflow, but for now I can't see a timesaver.... .

But again, the recordings itself sound very good!


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## dog1978 (Oct 11, 2012)

Not everybody needs to score the music. What's about Orchestral String Runs, Hollywoodwinds, the special FX (Textures etc.) in Symphobia...?


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## Waywyn (Oct 11, 2012)

jleckie @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> These libraries seem even more limiting in another not-discussed-so-far way. They offer a little of everything and not enough of one thing. If your scoring a sword and sorcery film and you have 3 loops to choose from whats the point?
> 
> Sonokinetic had the right idea in trying to dedicate an entire library to one genre but the offerings in say a VIVACE are still not enough to do an entire film in that genre.



Jay, at this point I simply want to point out once more that Action Strings is NOT the typical loop library. As said before, of course you can hold a loop sample for 16 bars - very cool  .. but you can also buy the full VSL cube and do nothing else than holding a major chord with sustain samples for 8 bars 

Action Strings is very versatile and it enables you to not just play some phrases and thats it. It gives you a lot of basic patterns, e.g. such as 8 and 16th notes, triplets etc. ... then phrases with accents which you could all see as bricks to build a house. If you make use of keyswitches, the modwheel and switching notes, you could really create some sophsticated and cool stuff.

However, I totally agree with you all who are not the biggest fan of loop libs. If someone just sits down, holding one note, it is just as boring as someone who sits down holding a chord with sus samples  In the end as mentioned here many times, it is just another tool and it is totally on you if you create interesting stuff or not ... 

To be honest with all the libraries containing loops which have been recently released, from out of 10 compositions I either received from people, heard on forums and social networks, checked out on iTunes or whereever, I may stumbled upon maybe 1 or 2 tracks which blatantly used a loop or two in an exposed way, but then again the rest of the track or the "layers" below or above the loops have been "self arranged" from either live musicians or multisamples!


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## Vision (Oct 11, 2012)

Yeah.. so, picked up this library yesterday. I was in the midst of making a post yesterday, but decided to just let some of the fireworks die down a little bit. 

So, I'll say what I was going to say initially.. This is a nice tool for creativity (which I knew going in). It won't make music for you. You still need to be a thoughtful composer with your music. 

Yesterday, I was going to mention this point also.. I wouldn't even call these 'phrases'. Pattern library is a better term. Yes, there are some basic melodic phrases in this lib.. but the majority of the loops are mostly rhythmic staccato/ ostinato patterns.. and nice measured tremolo patterns, which in most cases I can program using albion, CS2, or adagio.. or whatever sample library has nice short articulations. Action Strings can act as a great supplemental tool to add that extra amount of realism, and imperfection.. especially cleverly layered with other string libs. 

Vivace is more about melodic phrases, chord patterns, and runs. In a way, you could argue that Vivace can 'make' the music for you, especially if you only use the bare loops. However.. Vivace can be used as a powerful supplementary tool, to enhance your mock up if used the cleverly. 

I've already done a simple track for work, and AS blends quite well with Albion. I also used CineOrch and some Vivice.. yeap, I went full retard..  (kidding of course). But seriously, I appreciate all of these tools.. as tools. They all add something to the creative process.


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## Ed (Oct 11, 2012)

Btw apart from the few basic melodic phrases as as Vision points out...

... how is this any different to an arpeggiator? I was watching that video dog1978 posted and it looks exactly like that. Seriously just imagine you're not listening to strings and its a synth going through some preset patterns.


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## germancomponist (Oct 11, 2012)

dog1978 @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> Not everybody needs to score the music. What's about Orchestral String Runs, Hollywoodwinds.... .



I have not bought it.... . 



> the special FX (Textures etc.) in Symphobia...?



Yeah, this is special, as it always is with FX... .


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## Rob Elliott (Oct 11, 2012)

dog1978 @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> Now you can know what you talk about.  I recorded the screen during trying / my first steps on Actions Strings:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC42mz8mzxY&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC42mz8m ... e=youtu.be)




Super helpful. Thanks. I wish ALL developers did exactly what you did. I was hoping for some more 'featherly' options but if I was writing action music every other day - I'd get this. I might hold off until - and if - they release something 'lighter on it's feet'.


Thanks again.


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## dcoscina (Oct 11, 2012)

First, I'm sorry to Alex P. I didn't intend to hurt anyone's feelings and obviously articulated my opinion in a nasty hurtful way. So, once again, I apologize. Two, a library like this to a working musician is probably almost vital in today's market which admittedly has evolved or at least changed since my days of writing for $$$. I can postulate and luxuriate from the safe confines of a well paying (albeit creatively vacuous) day job. I can afford to say "this library isn't at all suited to what I'm after" and that's how I should have voiced it. 

Sorry again Alex. I like your style and your vids. And to the chap who said videos games are for people with a 15 point IQ, you do realize that a person with that little intelligence quotient would be comatose right? I enjoy playing Super Mario Galaxy and think the composer who did that score is excellent. Great music. Also, Michael Giacchino, John Debney and Howard Shore are but a few high profile composers who have brought their skills to video game scores. From interviews, they enjoy the medium because it actually allows them MORE creative freedom than films do these days. So, perhaps you can posit that.


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## TheUnfinished (Oct 11, 2012)

Whew. I wanted to comment on the library, really I did... but I just got depressed by seeing more of the same shit I've been reading on here over the last few months.

My visits to VI Control are increasingly infrequent. Thanks for reminding me why.


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## Waywyn (Oct 11, 2012)

dcoscina @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> First, I'm sorry to Alex P. I didn't intend to hurt anyone's feelings and obviously articulated my opinion in a nasty hurtful way. So, once again, I apologize. Two, a library like this to a working musician is probably almost vital in today's market which admittedly has evolved or at least changed since my days of writing for $$$. I can postulate and luxuriate from the safe confines of a well paying (albeit creatively vacuous) day job. I can afford to say "this library isn't at all suited to what I'm after" and that's how I should have voiced it.
> 
> Sorry again Alex. I like your style and your vids. And to the chap who said videos games are for people with a 15 point IQ, you do realize that a person with that little intelligence quotient would be comatose right? I enjoy playing Super Mario Galaxy and think the composer who did that score is excellent. Great music. Also, Michael Giacchino, John Debney and Howard Shore are but a few high profile composers who have brought their skills to video game scores. From interviews, they enjoy the medium because it actually allows them MORE creative freedom than films do these days. So, perhaps you can posit that.



No worries man! I for one reacted furious too in a way for which I excuse, although one has to understand that I just found it sad that many people even before REALLY checking out the lib more closely already went prejudice. I know loops is kind of an "explosive" topic but since I wrote my demo with it (and I was pretty happy that NI picked it to present the whole library) and already knew that AS is not just another "press a button and write a masterpiece by doing nothing" library I was really shocked in a way on how the bishbash rollercoaster already (and again) was on full speed heading for its 10th looping :D


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## adg21 (Oct 11, 2012)

Vision @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> Yeah.. so, picked up this library yesterday. I was in the midst of making a post yesterday, but decided to just let some of the fireworks die down a little bit.
> 
> So, I'll say what I was going to say initially.. This is a nice tool for creativity (which I knew going in). It won't make music for you. You still need to be a thoughtful composer with your music.
> 
> ...



Thanks for that, will look forward to it if you decide to post anything. Likewise looking to forward to Daniel James demo / walkthrough. 

The tone of this library is fab - not studio but not too hall-y either. To those who slammed it for being a loop library: nothing wrong with changing of mind ya know. I think what we're seeing it's more than that...


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## dog1978 (Oct 11, 2012)

In my vid you can see a lot of the phrases and how the mod wheel works. I like that you can change between major and minor with velocity. If you hit the key at 126/127 you get a stacc end. That's very easy to control.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC42mz8mzxY&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC42mz8mzxY&amp;feature=plcp)


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## jleckie (Oct 11, 2012)

Vision @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> Vivace is more about melodic phrases, chord patterns, and runs. In a way, you could argue that Vivace can 'make' the music for you, especially if you only use the bare loops. However.. Vivace can be used as a powerful supplementary tool, to enhance your mock up if used the cleverly.



Thanks for that post. No library is perfect but as loop/phrase libraries become more popular developers will most likely start taking composers suggestions more seriously as to what they want in a library like that. VIVACE is as close to perfect as I can think of (I DO like Spiritosa as well although I do not own it I have seen it in use.

VIVACE would be almost perfect [if] it had more isolated sections. If you had to deliver stems with breakouts (Brass, Strings, Woods, percussion,etc) you ALMOST can but there is bleed over from section to section as they were not recorded in separate rooms but with baffles instead.


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## Saxer (Oct 11, 2012)

hm, i didn't play any computer game for the last twenty years... (are they in color meanwhile?)... does it mean my iq is over 15 now? i'll never know, i can't count that far anyway...

anyway...

about the action strings: i have no problem with using loops and the demos sound really good (good work, alex!). 
on the other hand: especially this staccato/spiccato stuff is one of the easier parts to do with conventional string libraries. they sounded convincing since the first libraries of peter siedlaczeck and miroslav vitous were out (with some tricks to avoid the missing round robin machine gun effect). 
so i don't see the real benefit of such a loop library. at least for me.


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## charlieclouser (Oct 11, 2012)

Waywyn @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> It always fascinates me how most of you just think of the negative stuff and bringing up the same discussions as always when it comes to loops.
> 
> You think that a loop library does the music? You think by pressing a key and holding a loop for like 16 bars, one can compose as good (or as competitive) as a composer working with multisample libraries or even better, a composer recording a real orchestra?
> 
> ...



+1,000

THANK YOU.

I'll grab this library and use it for those two occasions per year that I need chug-chugs on the cello section, and mix it in behind all the stuff that I do which DOES NOT and CAN NOT appear in sample libraries of stock phrases. 

If what I do by hand, the hard way, ever appeared similar to what's available in ready-to-play sample libraries, then I'd have to question the validity and originality of what I was doing - and I'd tell myself to move on to doing stuff that I'd never heard before.

No movie or tv client has ever given me a single comment or criticism on the method by which I produced the audio they are listening to - only the emotional content and appropriateness for the picture. Action Strings will probably help me quickly render something that I consider a pretty mundane component of any score, and, in the long run, is something that I use very rarely, precisely because there's a million guys that can do it from scratch.

I mean, come on.... prefab string chugs. Morally speaking, big whoop.

(clicks "Add to cart"...)


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## chimuelo (Oct 11, 2012)

I bought a 100 watt Les Paul Marshall Crunch custom Kontakt Loop + FX Library for that exact same reason.
I can't do those sounds on my keys, so I buy the loops and make it happen.

This is like the Film Music is Classical Thread.
Great advertisement for NI though.


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## Hannes_F (Oct 11, 2012)

Ed @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> Out of interest, what is the difference between something like this library and working with an instrumentalist that improvises material that you use for your music?



Two: The material is exclusive for you. And you deal with a human being. 

That being said I see no reason why one should not use this library.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 11, 2012)

Ed @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> Btw apart from the few basic melodic phrases as as Vision points out...
> 
> ... how is this any different to an arpeggiator? I was watching that video dog1978 posted and it looks exactly like that. Seriously just imagine you're not listening to strings and its a synth going through some preset patterns.



I have to say I agree. Sonically the difference between this and the LASS ART is very small, except a) you have complete rhythmic control on the ART and b) you have 4 dynamic layers so can do the feathery stuff.

The only bit where I suddenly sat up in that demo was the Alien Attacks patch - "ah ha, something new I genuinely can't do", I thought. Those faster slurred patches will be golden. But sheesh, $339 for a handful of patches seems awfully steep. Like I say, when it's in Komplete Ulitmate 9 or 10, then it will be a nice bonus but it's fairly easy pass for now for me.


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## re-peat (Oct 12, 2012)

Rob Elliott @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> (...) I was hoping for some more 'featherly' options (...)


Unfortunate omission, yes. As is the absence of a basic set of single shot articulations (marcatos and portatos especially), which would make it a little easier to paint in variations, or to construct alternative endings and beginnings to phrases/patterns. There is a staccato patch, but a few more of these would certainly have increased the options.

But, whichever way one looks at it, this really is a pretty versatile, varied and seriously powerful 'rhythmic engine', extremely useful to propel any virtual orchestra forwards. And not just in so-called 'action' music. (I rarely do action stuff or anything in that vein myself, but I'm going to enjoy this library anyway.)
The selection of patterns is pretty smart too: they've hit exactly the right balance between 'characteristic' and 'anonymous' (and that's a very thin line to find, let alone to walk). In other words: plenty of stuff that is shaped perfectly for the role it needs to play in an arrangement, and yet, without being too recognizably melodious (which would limit the lasting appeal of a collection such as this enormously).

All in all, a fine product, I would say: fairly decent sound (not great though, alas, but given the position in the mix these strings will usually be found at, it isn't such a big deal), rich in possibilities, and definitely capable of everything it claims to be capable of. 

A must-have? I don't think so. A happy-to-have? Sure.

_


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## jcs88 (Oct 12, 2012)

I know I'm late to the game here...was going to reply to Paul's comments but reading on I don't think I'll bother. I guess it's my low IQ of 15 or my non-adult past-time!


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## JPQ (Oct 12, 2012)

I dislike these melodic loop libraries but we have luck there is also non loop based libraries. one expection is maybe String Essentials 2nd Edition (also have basic patches) reason is these phrases are generic kind... and i cannot imagine use about 390euros/dollars for only premade melodies. but i still going listen them...


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## Waywyn (Oct 12, 2012)

charlieclouser @ Fri Oct 12 said:


> Waywyn @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > It always fascinates me how most of you just think of the negative stuff and bringing up the same discussions as always when it comes to loops.
> ...




Thank you ... and well put!! Sorry for the stupid question, but are you "the" Charlie Clouser? If so *curtsy* :D


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## passenger57 (Oct 12, 2012)

It's a great library - very flexible, usable. I'm always looking for some element to add to my 'synthstrations' that make my final mix sound more 'realistic'. You wouldn't even recognize the patterns in my pieces - it just adds that live feel and momentum. And I can't stand fake or programmed sounding strings, so this helps. And its fun.
Since I don't have the time or money to have a live orchestra at my disposal, this is very helpful. And I love that they show the score, thats cool! thank you NI!
:D


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## rgames (Oct 12, 2012)

My comment on this library is that I'm not sure what it does for me - creating stacc/spicc patterns is extremely easy and can be made to sound very realistic. If there's any type of sound that string libraries do very well, it's the repeated stacc/spicc sound.

I honestly think I could get a realistic stacc/spicc line down faster by playing my template than using this tool. Add the flexibility of the template and I just don't see the value in such a product unless you have no string libraries (or you can't come up with basic chug rhythms).

rgames


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## mark812 (Oct 12, 2012)

rgames @ Fri Oct 12 said:


> My comment on this library is that I'm not sure what it does for me - creating stacc/spicc patterns is extremely easy and can be made to sound very realistic. If there's any type of sound that string libraries do very well, it's the repeated stacc/spicc sound.
> 
> I honestly think I could get a realistic stacc/spicc line down faster by playing my template than using this tool. Add the flexibility of the template and I just don't see the value in such a product unless you have no string libraries (or you can't come up with basic chug rhythms).
> 
> rgames



My thoughts exactly..I don't have anything against this kind of library per se (at first I thought it was about melodic phrases), but short notes are perhaps the most realistic part to program and really easy to achieve with modern string libraries like CS, LASS, VSL etc. I don't even use Albion's Ostinatum because it's easier for me to step input notes instead of programming and keyswitching them.

What I don't like (hearing from the demos) in this library is that I don't hear that "live" feel and warmth of a natural string sound. It sounds thin and overly processed to my ears.


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## germancomponist (Oct 12, 2012)

mark812 @ Fri Oct 12 said:


> rgames @ Fri Oct 12 said:
> 
> 
> > My comment on this library is that I'm not sure what it does for me - creating stacc/spicc patterns is extremely easy and can be made to sound very realistic. If there's any type of sound that string libraries do very well, it's the repeated stacc/spicc sound.
> ...



+1

Today I had a listen in my studio and had the same thoughts.


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## Rob Elliott (Oct 12, 2012)

Yea - the 'structure' of the library is good - well laid out and would augment any mock-up in this vein. I would have plunked down the cash if the 'sound' was more to my liking (feartherly and light on it's feet). As mentioned - the hard stacc/spicc is simple to achieve with today's libraries.....

......achieving a TRUE feather/bouncing spicc sound - not so much - at least not without LOTS of programming AND mixing.


Having said all that - I get a call to do 50 mins of action music and I'd buy it yesterday and charge it to the project. :wink:


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## Waywyn (Oct 12, 2012)

Rob Elliott @ Fri Oct 12 said:


> Yea - the 'structure' of the library is good - well laid out and would augment any mock-up in this vein. I would have plunked down the cash if the 'sound' was more to my liking (feartherly and light on it's feet). As mentioned - the hard stacc/spicc is simple to achieve with today's libraries.....
> 
> ......achieving a TRUE feather/bouncing spicc sound - not so much - at least not without LOTS of programming AND mixing.
> 
> ...



Thanks Rob, in case the devs don't catch your comment, I would be happy to note it down and pass it on ... just in case (and I am not stating anything) if there ever may be an addon or sequel!


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## Rob Elliott (Oct 12, 2012)

Waywyn @ Fri Oct 12 said:


> Rob Elliott @ Fri Oct 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Yea - the 'structure' of the library is good - well laid out and would augment any mock-up in this vein. I would have plunked down the cash if the 'sound' was more to my liking (feartherly and light on it's feet). As mentioned - the hard stacc/spicc is simple to achieve with today's libraries.....
> ...




Thanks Alex. I have no doubt they will sell more than a few copies of this - I bet they are already 'planning' on the sequel - but any 'nudge' you could be would be wonderful. It would be a great business move on their part.

Tell em though to really pull this off they need to get some 'air' around the strings. Hopefully that makes sense.


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## Peter Alexander (Oct 12, 2012)

> ...because it's easier for me to step input notes instead of programming and keyswitching them.



Ah! An honest man!


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## Nostradamus (Oct 14, 2012)

benmrx @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> This should get poo-poo'd on {...] poo-poo'd by drummers.... the same as EZMix gets poo-poo'd by mixers, the same [...] gets poo-poo'd by vocalists, t[..] gets poo-poo'd by folks that can grill up a good burger......l.



Please, can somebody explain to me the term "poo-poo"? Please ...


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## Markus S (Oct 14, 2012)

It's an interesting discussion. Actually this takes the way from sampled instruments to sampled orchestrations to sampled orchestral phrases.

I suppose, if you are a purist, you would not use anything else than live orchestra.

Since this is a tool, all depends of what you male of it. I for one, can imagine creative use of it. In example if you are only taking out the wave forms and build up sound design from it.

Many of you might disagree, but todays music is in many ways interchangeable and has a tendency of repeating itself. Maybe the idea behind this product is simply, since we are doing the same stuff over and over, why not just use a pre-recorded version of it to give it a little more live feeling and get the job done faster. It seems like a logical consequence.

I'm curious to see if there will also be elements from other orchestral section, like brass riffs, or an epic theme collection.

But in the end you just have to decide for yourself what you need and how you want to produce music, the product itself can't be a "bad thing" or a "good thing", it can only be what you make of it.


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## benmrx (Oct 14, 2012)

Nostradamus @ Sun Oct 14 said:


> benmrx @ Wed Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > This should get poo-poo'd on {...] poo-poo'd by drummers.... the same as EZMix gets poo-poo'd by mixers, the same [...] gets poo-poo'd by vocalists, t[..] gets poo-poo'd by folks that can grill up a good burger......l.
> ...



lol... I just mean that composers may snub this, just like a mixer might snub EZ Mix, etc.


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## kitekrazy (Oct 15, 2012)

dpasdernick @ Wed Oct 10 said:


> I suggest you all wait until I buy it because...
> 
> ..everytime I make an NI purchase the very next day the library I just bought is now "on sale/included in Komplete MOFO.0/given away as a free promotion/or discontinued never to be seen again...
> 
> frickin' story of my NI life...



The ? is will it be part of Komplete 9 Ultimate?


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## kitekrazy (Oct 15, 2012)

Resoded @ Thu Oct 11 said:


> I have to say, as much as I love this forum, these turds that pop up now and then are just unnecessary.
> 
> * *An amateur composer will sound like an amateur composer no matter what libraries they have at their disposal.*
> 
> ...



I think the easier it is to use a tool, the worst an amateur gets. Just look at youtube when someone creates their first tutorial video using an app.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Oct 26, 2012)

This isn't a loop library guys. Sure as heck does NOT seem it is to me.

This is more like combining our love of Omnisphere with Strings.

I can't tell you how frustrating it is to make simple 8th note patterns with some strings libs (HS has a delay from input) and even if it's just the same note.

This does everything I want. Gives us patterns, real string feeling, but also a ton of flexibility in the patters. Seems there is an option to almost create your own too.

Also RE: Video game music:

Please do not assume that "video games" always includes some kind of action filled FPS like Call-of-Duty, and that all music is Zimmer-like in video games.

There are many types of games out there that have amazing scores. Most of the types that do are simluation, strategy, adventure, and a few other gems. Of course there ARE some FPS's out there that have great scores, Assassin's Creed being one.

Of course I"m biased because I'm technically a video game composer.


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## Daniel James (Oct 26, 2012)

Just a heads up. My Action Strings overview video should be going up later today or early tomorrow 

Here is the track I wrote for it:

http://soundcloud.com/hybridtwo/cybernetic-haze-mp3

Dan


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## Sopranos (Oct 26, 2012)

Daniel James @ Fri Oct 26 said:


> Just a heads up. My Action Strings overview video should be going up later today or early tomorrow
> 
> Here is the track I wrote for it:
> 
> ...



o[]) 

Anxiously awaiting this one!


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## Darthmorphling (Oct 26, 2012)

Daniel James @ Fri Oct 26 said:


> Just a heads up. My Action Strings overview video should be going up later today or early tomorrow
> 
> Here is the track I wrote for it:
> 
> ...



This is great! I like how it still sounds like your style of composition and shows how the library is a tool for creating music. Definately not a press button, make music generator.

Very well done =o


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## Leosc (Oct 26, 2012)

Daniel James @ Fri Oct 26 said:


> Just a heads up. My Action Strings overview video should be going up later today or early tomorrow
> 
> Here is the track I wrote for it:
> 
> ...



Nice track indeed, but ironically I didn't find the strings too intense or realistic. Nothing CS, LASS or HS couldn't handle just as well, in my estimation. Waiting for your overview though.


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## MaraschinoMusic (Oct 28, 2012)

In my humble opinion, stringing together a bunch of pre-recorded musical phrases is not composing (unless you composed the phrases in the first place...) Personally I don't use melodic loops ever, but I frequently use live percussion loops to give a bit of zizz to a programmed drum track... so where does one draw the line...? I'm stuffed if I know!!!

Whoever finds Action Strings useful will buy it, those who don't won't. Who cares


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## Ed (Oct 28, 2012)

MaraschinoMusic @ Sun Oct 28 said:


> In my humble opinion, stringing together a bunch of pre-recorded musical phrases is not composing (unless you composed the phrases in the first place...) Personally I don't use melodic loops ever, but I frequently use live percussion loops to give a bit of zizz to a programmed drum track... so where does one draw the line...? I'm stuffed if I know!!!
> 
> Whoever finds Action Strings useful will buy it, those who don't won't. Who cares



Did you watch Dans video? This library is not "stringing together a bunch of pre-recorded musical phrases", apart from maybe a few of the patches being ostinatos.


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## Waywyn (Oct 29, 2012)

Ed @ Mon Oct 29 said:


> MaraschinoMusic @ Sun Oct 28 said:
> 
> 
> > In my humble opinion, stringing together a bunch of pre-recorded musical phrases is not composing (unless you composed the phrases in the first place...) Personally I don't use melodic loops ever, but I frequently use live percussion loops to give a bit of zizz to a programmed drum track... so where does one draw the line...? I'm stuffed if I know!!!
> ...



Ironically I have read a few arguments recently that Action Strings phrases do not sound real and that they are too tight and that other libs can handle stuff like this as well.

Since I regularly work with real orchestras I came to the conclusion that multisample libraries in the meantime got so many features and options, they almost sound too human.

For everyone recording with real good orchestras (please keep in mind, there is a difference between good orchestras and good orchestras. There are good orchestras being able to absolutely nail a phrase to a click and there are good orchestras who damn nail a conductors free tempo) should realize that real tight live played phrases sound exactly like the Action Strings source material (I refuse to say loops now )

So what the ear gets used too is the too human sounding feeling of anti machine gun solutions and while multisample libs try to get rid of the machine gun effect, orchestras who play along with click try to achieve exactly that. The difference is, even if the real orchestra is tight as hell, it sounds machine gunny but with enough variations to sound human, while multisample libraries vary so much it even sounds "too human". Don't get me wrong multisample libs get the job done very good and all the new ones can handle it pretty well, but (and I kinda lean out of the window with this) if you recently didn't (or never) had the chance to record tight click focused staccato lines you would be surprise how "stiff" the real orchestra compared to your multisample line would feel!


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## woodsdenis (Oct 29, 2012)

I watched Daniel's vid on this and bought it. Does what is says on the tin and an extremely useful tool to have. Sounds great and easy to use. I would agree with Daniel's point about having the 6-10 patterns visible. That's nitpicking though, it sounds very good especially the ability to let the pattern run or be retriggered. I don't have Lass or any of the other string libraries. I use Symphobia also which works for me. 

I will reiterate a point I made earlier to the poopooers. :lol: You guys who are taking a high artistic line on this are using samples anyway, isn't that cheating. Is Symphobia cheating too c'mon!!!! Reminds of when the MU in the UK wanted to ban the Freeman string machine.

Another note to all east coast USA, stay safe.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Oct 29, 2012)

Repeated on the bow legato.

That's the reason to buy this. Because you cannot do it with any single sample that I know of. That "sawing" bow action that DJ talks about in his videos.

I bought this specifically for a few projects, but I know I will be using it in the future, because I could never get the live feeling, even by playing the parts one by one using a keyboard. Mainly because a weighted keyboard is hard to do that on, and there was always a small delay either due to the library or some other latency.

Also as far as realism, they sound real to me. They sound like Dynamedion's string section.


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## Maestro77 (Oct 29, 2012)

Quick question for those who have Action Strings. While watching Daniel's walk-through video, I wondered how well this library could achieve realistic runs? Can you use the 16th note articulation and simply play a fast run playing legato, changing notes for each 16th note? Daniel changes notes every two/four 16th notes and it sounds smooth. Wondering how it works if you do that even faster. Thanks!


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## synergy543 (Oct 29, 2012)

Sorry if my questions were answered before but I didn't have time to read through all of the arguments...



Waywyn @ Mon Oct 29 said:


> ... real tight live played phrases sound exactly like the Action Strings source material (I refuse to say loops now )



So are Action Strings "source material" sampled at different pitches? Or are these loops (oops) recorded at a single pitch and then pitch-shifted which would make them useful for nearby notes but not too far away?

And if they're not recorded at different pitches, then wouldn't shifting the pitch change the speed?


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Oct 29, 2012)

They are recorded at different pitches. The only thing that happens is time stretching, but you don't even notice that until you bring the tempo way down.


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## Waywyn (Oct 30, 2012)

synergy543 @ Mon Oct 29 said:


> Sorry if my questions were answered before but I didn't have time to read through all of the arguments...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



as Nathan said! ... and no, changing the pitch would not necessarily change the speed (in Kontakt). But again, AS is NOT just pitched. All the different notes are recorded!

I just mentioned the phrase "source material" since it seems (and as this thread shows) most people stop thinking and stop being creative when hearing the word "loops"!


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## TomMartin (Oct 30, 2012)

I won't be buying this.... I don't have a problem with the concept, I don't have a problem with the quality (although that is uninformed as I haven't listened properly), I don't even have a problem with the price (other than I don't have it spare).

It's just the fact that I have bigger holes to fill in my template. Making your life a little bit easier on string rhythms seems like a priority that would be left to those who are running out of ideas for libraries to buy. I unfortunately, have a never ending list of ideas for libraries I want to buy. Is this on the list? I suppose so, but at the very bottom, and I don't even need it, I have plenty of spiccato patches. Not the same, but enough to get by without feeling like I am missing out.


I guess basically I'm trying to say, cool product, but there's probably a couple of thousand I "need" to spend on other stuff before I can consider buying this.


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## Ed (Oct 30, 2012)

synergy543 @ Mon Oct 29 said:


> Sorry if my questions were answered before but I didn't have time to read through all of the arguments...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why not watch the several videos that show what it is? Dans video tells you everything you need to know. Theres no excuse to be completely clueless on what it is.

In short though, yes single pitch phrase, recorded at multiple pitches just like multisamples are recorded for multiple pitches.


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## germancomponist (Jan 10, 2013)

Now some time has passed and we are all reassured. 

Who bought this library and can post an example where he had used this library ( as a time saver, of course...)?


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## SamiMatar (Jan 10, 2013)

Got it when it came out and have since used it in many action-ny cues. I've used it only for texturing and layering, for both real and sampled orchestra. I've yet to find use for it on the front line.

Pointless to argue about libraries; One mans garbage is another mans treasure.


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## passenger57 (Jan 10, 2013)

SamiMatar @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> Got it when it came out and have since used it in many action-ny cues. I've used it only for texturing and layering, for both real and sampled orchestra. I've yet to find use for it on the front line.
> 
> Pointless to argue about libraries; One mans garbage is another mans treasure.



+1 Couldn't have said it better myself :D


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## germancomponist (Jan 10, 2013)

So it should be no problem to post an example of your work?!


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Jan 11, 2013)

germancomponist @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> So it should be no problem to post an example of your work?!



not my work but we all can recognize AS here, can't we? o/~ 

(1:18 )


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## woodsdenis (Jan 11, 2013)

passenger57 @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> SamiMatar @ Thu Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Got it when it came out and have since used it in many action-ny cues. I've used it only for texturing and layering, for both real and sampled orchestra. I've yet to find use for it on the front line.
> ...


+1 I use it a lot, and I am not going to post any samples and start another debate about this. If you can do better with your existing libraries, then dont buy it, simple really.


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