# Hitchcock's Carousel (preliminary draft w. score) - Hoping for comments about the music



## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 22, 2021)

Hello everyone! Been a while since I posted something new here. I've been busy scoring my latest piece entitled _Hitchcock's Carousel_ in Dorico Pro. A first experience with Dorico for me. I now have a draft version and would like to have some feedback on it. Again, this is a preliminary version, so please be honest but kind 

The piece is loosely based on Hitchcock's movie _Strangers on a Train._ Two strangers, who just met on a train, decide to kill each other’s wife. Seems to be the perfect plan. 

It is my attempt to capture the many moods and situations of the movie:

the curious chance meeting of the two men on a train;
the strange "dance macabre" discussing their common problem: how to best kill their wives without getting caught;
their enthusiasm for the found solution: kill each other's wife, nobody will find the link;
the intrigue and suspense leading to the killings, the pursuit;
the (unrevealed here) chaotic finale, symbolized here with a madly rotating carousel.





The fully animated Dorico score in 4K can be followed here


Or if you prefer the audio only version:
​

The detailed movie plot is here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strangers_on_a_Train_(film)#Plot

Thank you! ❤️


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## Double Helix (Nov 22, 2021)

Love the entrance of the aggressive piano at :53
Herrmann-esque swirling tension (1:14) / release (1:46) / tension (2:16) / release (2:35)


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## Bollen (Nov 22, 2021)

As always your writing is just exquisite... However, can't say the same about that horrible robotic playback!


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 23, 2021)

That's it? No more comments? No likes, or _more importantly for me at this point, _nothing to dislike _about the music ? _Wow! I'm impressed!  I would _love_ to think that it is perfect, that nothing can be improved, but as I'm not (yet entirely) delusional, I honestly doubt it... 

What about thematic exposition, orchestration, tempo? Nothing really? I was hoping for some input from fellow composers along those lines. As they say, the floor is yours...


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 23, 2021)

Double Helix said:


> Love the entrance of the aggressive piano at :53
> Herrmann-esque swirling tension (1:14) / release (1:46) / tension (2:16) / release (2:35)


@Double Helix, thank you for listening and for your interesting comments _about the music. _I really appreciate reading about how you perceive it, where you feel the strong moments were, etc. In other words how it speaks to you, my intended public. Thanks again for your time! ❤️


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 23, 2021)

Bollen said:


> As always your writing is just exquisite...


Thank you, I guess 


Bollen said:


> However, can't say the same about that horrible robotic playback!


Wow, I did not expect that type of comment, as obviously I was asking for comments _about the music, _not the midi rendering. It is _a preliminary draft, a work in progress_ at this point after all! It's still all about the music here (hence the video score), not the other way around.

So, just to be sure, my first question to you would be: when you say "robotic" are you talking about the music itself i.e. the score, or about the midi rendering?

_If _you were talking about the rendering then it does not matter to me _at this point _and makes the rest of this post here entirely moot. I therefore thank you again @Bollen for your honest feedback, something I can always count on. ❤️

In my case this score is intended for a real orchestra, not a midi mockup, as its ultimate destination. The midi rendering is just there to check harmony, orchestration, dynamics, articulations, etc. It's the equivalent for me of a word processor's spell checker at this point. I don't yet care about the typography and the fonts used, just the text. Maybe I will never have to! 

BTW I appreciate conflicting opinions about my music. I crave for them actually. But your comment has strangely made almost everyone run for cover  and had the unintended side-effect to stop this thread on its tracks, apparently terrorizing others into submission, and stymied any hope for additional constructive comments thereafter.

This is not your fault @Bollen but the nature of such forums nowadays, where everyone is running away from openly honest discussions, where only "Likes" matter and where "Dislikes", if they even ever existed, would be frown upon. 

I'm thinking of starting a new movement on the coattails of the now famous BLM, and call it *BLDM* for _*Both Likes & Dislikes Matter. *_

Now, that being said, _if_ you were saying in your comment above that _my music, i.e. the score itself,_ is "robotic", then I _really_ want to know in what specific way, e.g. Structure, Melody, Harmony, Orchestration, Texture, Dynamics, Timbre, Tempo, Concept, Mood, etc. mentioning instruments, bar numbers, etc. where applicable.

_That_ would be really helpful! I value your opinion @Bollen, as you well know by now 

Also please keep in mind that the subject matter asks for intense, mechanistic, unstoppable music: discussions on a train, murders, pursuits, crazy waltzing carousel, etc. They all beg for it imho. This is an artistic choice, still up to me afaik.


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## doctoremmet (Nov 23, 2021)

Whoa Tatiana. This definitely sounds like a Hitchcock movie score, i.e. a nice Herrmann inspired piece of music. Makes me want to watch a movie actually.

While I can definitely tell the render was made with samples, somehow my built in _suspension of disbelief_ is so strong nowadays, after decades of being exposed to faux orchestral renders I guess, that I can almost hear this performed by a real orchestra and that’s how I perceived it in my mind. That makes me a terrible person for giving feedback, other than strictly on the basis of my enjoyment of the music itself of course!

❤️


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 23, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Whoa Tatiana. This definitely sounds like a Hitchcock movie score, i.e. a nice Herrmann inspired piece of music. Makes me want to watch a movie actually.


Haha! Thanks a lot. That was not directly my intention to sound like Herrmann in any way but I guess it slowly percolated from watching the movie 


doctoremmet said:


> While I can definitely tell the render was made with samples, somehow my built in _suspension of disbelief_ is so strong nowadays, after decades of being exposed to faux orchestral renders I guess, that I can almost hear this performed by a real orchestra and that’s how I perceived it in my mind. That makes me a terrible person for giving feedback, *other than strictly on the basis of my enjoyment of the music itself of course!* ❤️


That's the best kind of feedback, the one about the music itself, especially when someone enjoys it!  Thanks Doc! ❤️


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## Bollen (Nov 23, 2021)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> Thank you, I guess
> 
> Wow, I did not expect that type of comment, as obviously I was asking for comments _about the music, _not the midi rendering. It is _a preliminary draft, a work in progress_ at this point after all! It's still all about the music here (hence the video score), not the other way around.
> 
> ...


Lovely you! Of course I was referring exclusively to the playback! I love your writing, especially the more serious, artistic type. I suppose I fell for the very opposite of our dear doctor above i.e. this forum has conditioned me to only expect as-close-to-real-as-possible renditions. 

You also caught me at a bad time because I was just ranting on another thread how I find notation composers lazy for not trying to improve their renditions, when software has already taken so much of the burden off. But since this is just a draft, please discard everything I just said! I find the music wonderful and appropriate for what you set yourself out to do. It works on many levels! ❤


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 23, 2021)

Bollen said:


> Lovely you! Of course I was referring exclusively to the playback! I love your writing, especially the more serious, artistic type.


So nice of you to say! ❤️


Bollen said:


> You also caught me at a bad time because I was just ranting on another thread how I find notation composers lazy for not trying to improve their renditions, when software has already taken so much of the burden off.


It happens. If the goal is accurate realistic rendition of the score then no effort should be spared, I agree. That's an area where there's much to learn.


Bollen said:


> But since this is just a draft, please discard everything I just said! I find the music wonderful and appropriate for what you set yourself out to do. It works on many levels! ❤


I just wanted to be sure. No harm done!  And thanks for the nice words about my music. Much appreciated! ❤️


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## b_elliott (Nov 24, 2021)

My 2 cents: If I had your talents, my attention goes to how would I score such a theme....

Disclaimer: I have not watched the Hitchcock film.

My mind takes me to Mozart's overture to _Don Giovanni_. 
Crickey, in a few minutes the overture covers the full story hinting that the hero winds up going to hell in a fiery end for murder .... there are multiple seductions, the Don is as smarmy as at least one of those two strangers on the train wanting to off their wives. A similarity in darkness. 

Without distracting you from what you have going, listen to how Mzt encapsulates the vibe of 3-hour opera into a 7 minute overture: it has somewhat similar instrumentation except for the piano. It traverses foreboding to eerie melodies; a quickened pace as the adrenaline of trouble making picks up; innocent melodies of the female characters contrasted with the bold male repentless womanizer. 

I just now read the Wiki page on _Strangers on a Train_: Of interest, Hitchcock made a cameo appearance boarding train with a double bass:




Something to exploit in your score!

I am clearly no help to you: i.e., put your score in B# Phrygian; swap out bar 4 with measures X-Y-Z; bingo!-- you are done.

Simply giving you another angle to view this theme. Like I say, wish I had your chops M'am.

Best, Bill


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 24, 2021)

b_elliott said:


> My 2 cents: If I had your talents, my attention goes to how would I score such a theme....


So nice of you to say Bill! 💜


b_elliott said:


> My mind takes me to Mozart's overture to _Don Giovanni_...A similarity in darkness.


Interesting and unexpected connection. I can always count on you to "wormhole" from one musical universe to another! 


b_elliott said:


> I just now read the Wiki page on _Strangers on a Train_: Of interest, Hitchcock made a cameo appearance boarding train with a double bass:
> 
> 
> 
> Something to exploit in your score!


Funny you should mention it! Guess who was playing bass in _my_ score... 


b_elliott said:


> Simply giving you another angle to view this theme. Like I say, wish I had your chops M'am. Best, Bill


Much appreciated input Bill! And thank you again for your nice words! ❤️


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## b_elliott (Nov 24, 2021)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> Guess who was playing bass in _my_ score...


I am perplexed.
That had me do a re-listen... there's the basses right in the opening with its rhythmic riff!
Is your bass sample called Seriously Hitchcock?


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## Sonja (Nov 24, 2021)

My favorite part was at about 4:00 when it really felt like a carousel- kind of disorienting. I am not sure if you used that elsewhere in the piece but if not, it resulted in a wonderfully "dizzying" affect for the listener.


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## Romy Schmidt (Nov 24, 2021)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> That's it? No more comments? No likes, or _more importantly for me at this point, _nothing to dislike _about the music ? _Wow! I'm impressed!  I would _love_ to think that it is perfect, that nothing can be improved, but as I'm not (yet entirely) delusional, I honestly doubt it...
> 
> What about thematic exposition, orchestration, tempo? Nothing really? I was hoping for some input from fellow composers along those lines. As they say, the floor is yours...


If you're in need of some positive criticism, you should take a master class from a maestro in composition, someone with a lot of experience in composition and/or orchestration.

Really, Tatiana, you are an excellent composer. You must know this. Ever tried to contact the conductor of a symphony orchestra with your music? If not, you should.


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 24, 2021)

Sonja said:


> My favorite part was at about 4:00 when it really felt like a carousel- kind of disorienting. I am not sure if you used that elsewhere in the piece but if not, it resulted in a wonderfully "dizzying" affect for the listener.


Thank you so much Sonja! ❤️ You are absolutely right, this is what I called in my initial post the "chaotic finale", this dizzying carousel. I did not not want to reveal the movie's ending, so no spoiler here! 

It has this "vintage" psychotic feel to it, moving across harmonies and dissonances through syncopated rythmic patterns. It was _meant _to feel unstable to say the least. You are very perceptive! Thank you for listening and for your insightful comment!


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 24, 2021)

Romy Schmidt said:


> If you're in need of some positive criticism, you should take a master class from a maestro in composition, someone with a lot of experience in composition and/or orchestration.


Hello Romy! I'm not sure how to take your comment.  Is it meant to be sarcastic? If not then I should tell you that I was there quite a while ago and even was the one giving the masterclasses on many occasions back in my native Russia. More about it can be found here: https://acwc.ca/members/tatiana-gordeeva/


Romy Schmidt said:


> Really, Tatiana, you are an excellent composer. You must know this. Ever tried to contact the conductor of a symphony orchestra with your music? If not, you should.


Thank you very much! ❤️ Every new piece I compose is a new test for my self-esteem and shakes it to the ground. Artists are notoriously insecure. As most people I appreciate positive feedback about my art but the perfectionist in me is never satisfied and looks for ways to improve (maybe to get more positive feedback?) so, paradoxically, I also, at the same time, crave for _negative_ (but constructive) feedback. Go figure! 

About your point on contacting a conductor & orchestra: my detailed bio would show you that it happened many times in my past. Since I moved to Canada about 10 years ago I went mostly "in the box", using DAWs and VIs, and (almost) never looked back.  I still have many pieces for smaller orchestras that were played in concert in recent years.

Anyway, thank you again for listening and for your nice comments! ❤️


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## Nando Florestan (Nov 24, 2021)

I think the reason you didn't get the suggestions you expected is the genre. Nobody would go to Alban Berg and give him pointers about that music... I am not saying you are Berg, I just mean that certain genres come with expectations, but contemporary classical... least of all. If we can expect something we can evaluate whether you delivered, but in this genre, you are totally free.

That said, I would comment that your final chord sounds a bit like "I found the tonic!!!", and after listening 3 times, I guess I wanted the piece to end with a surprising harmony (or disharmony). I don't think there's a problem with the piece ending in an accent, but... don't give us the tonic? The bass in the final chord is the same note that was in the bass ostinatos at the beginning, so I guess you do have some sort of tonic there, but... should you? To me the piece sounded like a series of messy situations which cannot be sustained and are bound to break, so I wanted that break to finally happen.


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 24, 2021)

Nando Florestan said:


> I think the reason you didn't get the suggestions you expected is the genre. Nobody would go to Alban Berg and give him pointers about that music... I am not saying you are Berg, I just mean that certain genres come with expectations, but contemporary classical... least of all. If we can expect something we can evaluate whether you delivered, but in this genre, you are totally free.


Nando, you make a very good point here. It is difficult to formulate expectations about the unexpectable. I did not realize it as clearly as you formulate it. So-called "contemporary classical" and, even more, "avant-garde" (my formal training) are genres outside the expectation "matrix". Good point! 


Nando Florestan said:


> That said, I would comment that your final chord sounds a bit like "I found the tonic!!!", and after listening 3 times, I guess I wanted the piece to end with a surprising harmony (or disharmony). I don't think there's a problem with the piece ending in an accent, but... don't give us the tonic? The bass in the final chord is the same note that was in the bass ostinatos at the beginning, so I guess you do have some sort of tonic there, but... should you? To me the piece sounded like a series of messy situations which cannot be sustained and are bound to break, so I wanted that break to finally happen.


Another very interesting remark! As I was composing I was torn between a dissonant ending and the resolution I chose and discussed it with my husband for a while. Then he quoted me Hamlet saying that 'Death is the Great _Equalizer",_ settling the debate by going for a tonic ending. To this day I'm still not sure if he intended the pun or not! 

Thank you for listening and for your thoughtful comments! ❤️


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## b_elliott (Nov 24, 2021)

Confession: your track got me interested in its original soundtrack. I learned the original was scored by Russian-American Dimitri Tiomkin. Though well known at the time, Dimitri is new to me. 

Different movie, same composer: This gorgeous tune got me choked up: El Deguello by D. Tiomkin -- one hell of a tunesmith!

Look forward to hearing your completed project. Best, Bill


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## Nando Florestan (Nov 24, 2021)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> So-called "contemporary classical" and, even more, "avant-garde" (my formal training)


I didn't say avant-garde just because I don't know what that would be in this century. It used to be that originality was the single most valued principle for the avant-garde, something always had to be radically new -- pitch organization, rhythm, even notation itself. I cannot perceive any of that in your piece, based on the video. Further, that value system cannot continue, given the degree of alienation. Current "academic music" (a fair expression because, like scientific research, it can only be consumed by experts, or when a Carl Sagan book comes out) seems to rely almost exclusively on playing all instruments in all sorts of the wrong ways, which doesn't attract me personally. It's the last well to dry up, I guess.


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## Bollen (Nov 25, 2021)

Nando Florestan said:


> I didn't say avant-garde just because I don't know what that would be in this century. It used to be that originality was the single most valued principle for the avant-garde, something always had to be radically new -- pitch organization, rhythm, even notation itself. I cannot perceive any of that in your piece, based on the video. Further, that value system cannot continue, given the degree of alienation. Current "academic music" (a fair expression because, like scientific research, it can only be consumed by experts, or when a Carl Sagan book comes out) seems to rely almost exclusively on playing all instruments in all sorts of the wrong ways, which doesn't attract me personally. It's the last well to dry up, I guess.


If you are referring to that almost-noise music, I wouldn't call that avant-garde. To me it sounds very dated... Serialism is still part of the equation, but not exclusively. There's an obvious return to consonant pitch organisations whilst using everything learned from the 20th century.


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## Nando Florestan (Nov 25, 2021)

Bollen said:


> If you are referring to that almost-noise music, I wouldn't call that avant-garde. To me it sounds very dated... Serialism is still part of the equation, but not exclusively. There's an obvious return to consonant pitch organisations whilst using everything learned from the 20th century.


Sure but then the avant-garde is no more, right? What would you call avant-garde today? I cannot find it.


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## Cass Hansen (Nov 25, 2021)

…likes + dislikes….careful what you wish for Tatiana!  Hitchcock’s screen version of Patricia Highsmith’s book is excellent. This is the start of his decade of blockbusters and created his legacy for all time.

I don’t frequent this forum very often anymore, mostly due to time constraints, but I do follow a few composers here who I think have a very bright future ahead of them, and one of those is of course you! And before I forget, congrats on being selected for the 40th Anniversary of ACWC playlist………..which is quite an honour. You definitely an individual that can do two things at once or more with aplomb. I, on the other hand, am challenged to be able to do even one thing at once!

I’m also one of those type individuals that believe music is mostly subjective in all respects including harmony, orchestration, style, form, etc. but some things are objective due to the laws of acoustic physics/psychoacoustic and such but let’s save that for another time.

So applying the aforementioned in practice, I’m not going to give you “likes and dislikes”. Okay, one like because you did such a good job at it, but for dislikes, let’s call it “*these are the things I would include if I were writing this.” *

The like…..what a great job of interspersing the carnival atmosphere throughout, keeps coming back, (0:38, 1:15, 3:53)almost like a quasi-rondo. That motif and supportive orchestration was superlative. This binds/ties the whole piece together and works flawlessly. The piano part-punctuation also helps with this binding. 

I like all styles of writing really, from avant-garde, modern, postmodernism,[TH1] serial, impressionism, romantic, classical, baroque, you name it, hell, I even like monophonic music. Those Gregorians knew how to chant! Point is, doesn’t matter as long as the piece has “soul and spirit”, is well crafted and has something to say. Your piece does all these things . I didn’t really focus on your harmonic disposition at all, the piece works as a unit and has a great balance of cognitive and emotive elements.

What you didn’t say, at least I didn’t see it, is if this piece is meant to stand on its own as an orchestral concert piece without later adding electronic manipulation. (meaning reverb effects, panning, FX stuff). Also you didn’t really indicate if you meant this to closely follow the narrative of the movie/book or just reflect mood as an overall summary of the narrative. Since you posted the score and gave us an outline of what moods you were trying to capture as it progresses through the film, I’m not sure of your intent.

So back to, “*these are the things I would include if I were writing this.” *To start with, I would start as the movie does, with footsteps. The whole beginning film sequence is one of those ingenious Hitcockian creations. You could replicate this by….let’s see…….have the conductor raise his baton and orchestra ready to commence and then the side doors of the stage opens and two percussions (with loud leather shoes of course) cross the stage and go to the back where the percussionists live and meet at the center and the baton goes down and a slapstick sounds suggesting the shoes have met. What an audience attention getter that would be.

Anyway, stuff like that to follow the movie. But if you want a more serious take on the movie, just scratch that. Next.

As I mentioned, you nailed it when it comes to the carnival sound. I also heard a lot of UP and DOWN motion in your composition (arpeggiated harps, strings, winds) which is great for the horses on the carrousel but at the same time it makes me think of a Ferris wheel, not really a carrousel. Ferris wheels go up and then back down. Carrousels rotate with sounds of kids, mechanical clanks of the horses, and spin from left to right and then back again. I think you need some type of side to side orchestration motion in the music to really represent the carrousel. True, the main calliope of sound on a carrousel comes from the center, but one can include that with the back and forth orchestration using other instruments.

There are many ways of doing this of course, I can think of three ways immediately,


Undulate in a wave from left to right (okay right to left if you have a clockwise carrousel) by using volume. Violins fading in, crescendoing to a point and then decrescendoing as the woodwinds and violas crescendo in and then fade as the cellos take over. (Also do this with French horns, trumpets and trombones)Then repeat the process, an undulating wave while other instruments play the melodic motifs. The wave is kind of a soundscape in reality on top of the other orchestration.
Same idea but undulate waves with frequency. Low violins to flutes/piccolo back down to cello/basses.
This idea I want to try myself sometime. Undulate by detuning. This however would take a good orchestra and the wave would have to be whole notes, not a fast 16th note pattern of course! Violins play 1/8th note higher (out of tune) then slowly come into tune while the woodwinds(and timpani which does it so well) in the center go out of tune and then finally the trombones and lower strings sliding out and in. If you want to even make this more ridiculous have only half the violins detune on the first part of the whole note while the remainder are in tune and then have them slowly shit from detune to tuned. This would create a chorus effect {rear sound)and give you depth as well as side to side motion and then once in tune an upfront sound. Then it would really create a rotating object sound. But I know this is like I said, ridiculous but my imagination knows no bounds.
The main thing is to vary the undulating process towards the end of the score, from slow to faster as the carrousel speeds up and goes out of control. And this whole undulating thing only needs to occur as a short interlude in the piece, don’t have to drag it out. But bringing it back at the end would clench it.

You know,…..just forget this whole thing, sorry to have wasted your reading time, I’m kind of a nut job at best and I easily go off onto tangents. But I would I the very least accelerate the tempo towards the end of the piece as the carrousel goes faster and faster (spoiler ALERT)and you can include the Big Bang if you want to or not, the self-implosion of the carrousel and horses, kids, parents all shrieking and flying every which direction. I can just hear all those brass droits, rips, dips, and woodwinds shrieking, strings doing their PYCHO licks, why you can even have the oboes pull their reeds out and blow as hard as they can. (I’m an oboist, always wanted to do that).

There is sooooo much one can do with this but……….as a legitimate concert piece, what you have is fantastic as is. My lunacy always surfaces when I discuss narrative music.

Okay, I’m being called for a turkey chow down in a few so have a good one yourself and tell your husband, if he says you look dazed, that you just read a fanatics manifesto on carrousels and leave it at that.

Cheers, Cass



[TH1]


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## Bollen (Nov 25, 2021)

Nando Florestan said:


> Sure but then the avant-garde is no more, right? What would you call avant-garde today? I cannot find it.


Me of course! Nah just kidding, but I suppose a lot of the younger over-complexity lot are doing pretty wild stuff. There's also a lot exploration in microtonality. There's no ONE movement like the euro-centric one we had previously, depending where you are from people are exploring all kinds of stuff. Follow something like the LSO on YouTube to be in the loop of what a lot of new composers are doing. Could also recommend the Ensemble Intercontemporain, although they tend to do older composers.


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## Gene Pool (Nov 25, 2021)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> Hello everyone! Been a while since I posted something new here. I've been busy scoring my latest piece entitled _Hitchcock's Carousel_ in Dorico Pro. A first experience with Dorico for me. I now have a draft version and would like to have some feedback on it.


I read your introductory texts and went through this piece several times in score view. I like it and I like your writing, so I'll make a few general comments.

It's difficult to make comments on a piece of program music in progress since, if the music depicts the program successfully, then how do you talk about factors you'd typically address in a piece of absolute music? They still matter of course, but they have to be implemented in a different way. And that's part of the fun and challenge of program music: having more license for how you carry out your form and present your ideas while also making an intelligible musical whole out of your program. So bear in mind that since I don't know the specific goals of your narrative intent, the following comments might be irrelevant.

*Program:* Narrative-wise, I'm having trouble following the demarcations of the dramatic elements of the program, so the following comments mainly stem from that, specifically regarding the common musical goal of musical identities, motion, and moving forward. You have plenty of motion, _interesting_ motion, but the _moving forward_ element, although _there_, could perhaps be a bit more obvious.

*Leitmotivs:* I have seen the film two or three times, and I'm wondering if you're using any leitmotiv techniques to any degree. If so, ignore the following. But it seems like you could have one for the always-smirking psychopath played by Robert Walker. One for the passive, common man out-of-his-element character played by Farley Granger. One for the unfortunate wives (or each wife). One for the train, and one for the carousel. Having distinct and contrasting leitmotivs for each of these might help drive and articulate the narrative, and could lead to interesting polymotivic interplay. I could tell that some of this type of thing is already there, so my preference would be for that, too, to be more strongly identifiable. Unsurprisingly, Wagner is my main reference for this approach.

*Contrast:* At present there may be a bit too much sameness of effect (for me) with respect to the texture and tempo and manner of instrument expression throughout. You're good at the poly-textures and fragmenting techniques, but the occasional contrasting and more consolidated texture might be helpful in providing some relief to your main approach. And towards this same goal perhaps a bit more in the way of sectional expression to set in relief the more fragmented, soloistic writing. In this regard my frame of reference always tends to be how Stravinsky handled his episodes and vignetting in _Le Sacre_.

*Performance:* I know you have a lot of successful live performances behind you, and I don't know if you plan to get this performed, but although your music is well done in and of itself, this particular type of scoring—to the extent you've implemented it—is pretty certain to run into ensemble issues, and it would take more rehearsal time to work out than the unfortunate modern symphony schedules typically allow.


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 25, 2021)

Wow!! Hello everyone! I was away today and just came back home to discover all your marvelous responses!! Many thanks for your kindness, to all of you! To take so much of your time to help a fellow composer is really heartwarming! ❤️

Let me have a quick bite and I will respond to every one of you personally.
Thank you again for so many marvelous ideas!
Stay tuned... Tatiana


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## Xiheua (Nov 25, 2021)

I think structurally its very sound, some parts will sound much better with an orchestra and a few others quite worse. For example around minute 3 when the dynamics start growing, I don't know if the instruments have enough horsepower, or maybe you already counted on that.

I've found that the problem with using these languages (meaning atonal) in a big setting is that the orchestra loses potency when you don't write enough colour into the sections, because it doesn't have a harmonic support. Another guy mentioned Berg, I think his violin concerto is a great example of how to balance that; when you look at the score everything is in constant flow, and there's plenty of originality in mixing different instruments in different registers dynamics etc. If I recall correctly Schoenberg piano concerto is also similar in that way.

The main motif is nice when you develop it into the eighth note pattern, but I'd go even further! And make some drastic rhythm variations with the pattern as it goes on.

Anyways, I thought its a very nice piece! Will you get it recorded in the future?


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 25, 2021)

Hello everyone, I'm back, fed and rested 
Just a few quick remarks before going into detailed replies:

The piece is _inspired_ by Hitchcock's movie and was never meant to be a soundtrack or even follow the action sequentially. It is more about the mood that the subject matter inspired me musically.
A carousel has its own symbolic meaning for me, cycles, life, etc. Of course, in the movie, it has an additional dramatic dimension that even Hitchcock himself considered as it most intemse scene.
This is preliminary draft, far from the completed piece which is planned to be developed more fully and will probably end up to be around 9-10 minutes long. I have clear ideas on how I want to do it but I wanted to get some initial feedback before going further, which I did. Thank you!
I also plan to add a few more "exotic" instruments to the basic ones here.
When I used the word "avant-garde" (in quotes) it was a reference to its meaning at the time when the movie was filmed, in post-WWII years. As all labels, this one has long lost it initial meaning but more about that later.
Now I will try to address each one of your comments. Thanks again for taking the time to make them. I'll do my best to try to reply best I can.


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 25, 2021)

Nando Florestan said:


> I didn't say avant-garde just because I don't know what that would be in this century. It used to be that originality was the single most valued principle for the avant-garde, something always had to be radically new -- pitch organization, rhythm, even notation itself.


Exactly. That's what I meant by "avant-garde" (within quotes): what was considered as such at the time the movie was filmed, mid-20th century, not this century. All throughout history there were innovators creating "experimental music" and a few others claiming themselves as part of the "avant-garde" who, in most cases, took pride in shocking the public, provoking reactions trough nonsensical, irrational, funny, disturbing, etc. music. The same happened with dadaism in other arts and litterature, Cabaret Voltaire, etc. I don't claim to be part of this type of "avant-garde", I just studied those composers as part of my training.


Nando Florestan said:


> I cannot perceive any of that in your piece, based on the video.


Thanks. It was not my intention at all.  I always want _listenable _music, in this case with a tip of the hat to great composers, contemporaries of Hitchcock.


Nando Florestan said:


> Further, that value system cannot continue, given the degree of alienation. Current "academic music" (a fair expression because, like scientific research, it can only be consumed by experts, or when a Carl Sagan book comes out) seems to rely almost exclusively on playing all instruments in all sorts of the wrong ways, which doesn't attract me personally. It's the last well to dry up, I guess.


Absolutely agree. Negating all previous musical genres just for the sake of it can't lead to listenable music. Most of what you call "academic music" or other genres I associate with it such as "concrete music" or "electro-acoustics", etc. (others might disagree with one or the other here) make what my husband calls "torturing the poor instruments" just to create strange, often offensive, noises. I'm not sure that some of these people even do it to negate past genres but just because they ignore them consciously or not. This could be a long (but interesting) discussion in itself but I will leave it at that for now.


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 25, 2021)

Bollen said:


> There's an obvious return to consonant pitch organisations whilst using everything learned from the 20th century.


Good, finally!


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 25, 2021)

Cass Hansen said:


> …likes + dislikes….careful what you wish for Tatiana!


Haha, I know Cass 


Cass Hansen said:


> Hitchcock’s screen version of Patricia Highsmith’s book is excellent. This is the start of his decade of blockbusters and created his legacy for all time.


Absolutely! For those who never saw the movie do yourself a favor and watch it! 


Cass Hansen said:


> I don’t frequent this forum very often anymore, mostly due to time constraints, but I do follow a few composers here who I think have a very bright future ahead of them, and one of those is of course you! And before I forget, congrats on being selected for the 40th Anniversary of ACWC playlist………..which is quite an honour. You definitely an individual that can do two things at once or more with aplomb. I, on the other hand, am challenged to be able to do even one thing at once!


Oh, thank you so much Cass for these very kind words! Flattered  
You should definitely visit the forum more often 


Cass Hansen said:


> I’m also one of those type individuals that believe music is mostly subjective in all respects including harmony, orchestration, style, form, etc. but some things are objective due to the laws of acoustic physics/psychoacoustic and such but let’s save that for another time.


Absolutely agree! And so does my husband, a physicist, passionate about music and neurology 


Cass Hansen said:


> So applying the aforementioned in practice, I’m not going to give you “likes and dislikes”. Okay, one like because you did such a good job at it, but for dislikes, let’s call it “*these are the things I would include if I were writing this.” *
> 
> The like…..what a great job of interspersing the carnival atmosphere throughout, keeps coming back, (0:38, 1:15, 3:53)almost like a quasi-rondo. That motif and supportive orchestration was superlative. This binds/ties the whole piece together and works flawlessly. The piano part-punctuation also helps with this binding.


In the final version I plan to return to this carnival atmosphere, this kind of dark waltz, with variations, a few more time. I think it will be interesting.


Cass Hansen said:


> I like all styles of writing really, from avant-garde, modern, postmodernism,[TH1] serial, impressionism, romantic, classical, baroque, you name it, hell, I even like monophonic music. Those Gregorians knew how to chant! Point is, doesn’t matter as long as the piece has “soul and spirit”, is well crafted and has something to say. Your piece does all these things . I didn’t really focus on your harmonic disposition at all, the piece works as a unit and has a great balance of cognitive and emotive elements.


It might sound a bit "cheezy" but I really wrote it exactly how I felt it. I absorbed the general mood of the movie, which made a deep impression on me, and I just let it flow on the paper (actually Dorico) as it came to me, shutting off completely my pre-frontal cortex as in an almost "lucid dream". 


Cass Hansen said:


> What you didn’t say, at least I didn’t see it, is if this piece is meant to stand on its own as an orchestral concert piece without later adding electronic manipulation. (meaning reverb effects, panning, FX stuff).


It is intended to be played live. At this point (draft stage) the piece is rendered in a very basic manner. Basic libraries, no CCs, no effects, nothing. As I explained in a reply to Bollen earlier in the thread, I just focused on the score so far. Of course if mixing is involved there are many other things that can be done (as I usually do in my other finished pieces).


Cass Hansen said:


> Also you didn’t really indicate if you meant this to closely follow the narrative of the movie/book or just reflect mood as an overall summary of the narrative. Since you posted the score and gave us an outline of what moods you were trying to capture as it progresses through the film, I’m not sure of your intent.


I did not intend to follow the script, sequence or action in the movie. It was also not intended as an alternate soundtrack (the original stands on its own pretty well imho). It was more of a mood-to-music transcript of my impressions after watching the movie, if it makes any sense.


Cass Hansen said:


> So back to, “*these are the things I would include if I were writing this.” *To start with, I would start as the movie does, with footsteps. The whole beginning film sequence is one of those ingenious Hitcockian creations. You could replicate this by….let’s see…….have the conductor raise his baton and orchestra ready to commence and then the side doors of the stage opens and two percussions (with loud leather shoes of course) cross the stage and go to the back where the percussionists live and meet at the center and the baton goes down and a slapstick sounds suggesting the shoes have met. What an audience attention getter that would be.


Interesting and original idea! Certainly an attention-grabbing one for the audience during concert! 


Cass Hansen said:


> Anyway, stuff like that to follow the movie. But if you want a more serious take on the movie, just scratch that. Next.


Yeah, maybe not  I'm not sure that I will find a conductor ready to go to that length for me. 


Cass Hansen said:


> As I mentioned, you nailed it when it comes to the carnival sound. I also heard a lot of UP and DOWN motion in your composition (arpeggiated harps, strings, winds) which is great for the horses on the carrousel...


I love that you heard that. That was exactly my intention! ❤️


Cass Hansen said:


> ...but at the same time it makes me think of a Ferris wheel, not really a carrousel. Ferris wheels go up and then back down. Carrousels rotate with sounds of kids, mechanical clanks of the horses, and spin from left to right and then back again. I think you need some type of side to side orchestration motion in the music to really represent the carrousel. True, the main calliope of sound on a carrousel comes from the center, but one can include that with the back and forth orchestration using other instruments.


This is a very intriguing idea! Some kind of Doppler effect maybe. I will think some more about it for sure. In a mixed version that would be quite easy to do (auto-panning, etc.) but live...humm... Interesting!


Cass Hansen said:


> There are many ways of doing this of course, I can think of three ways immediately,...


All incredibly interesting ideas. THANKS! I need to seriously think about them and how to incorporate them in the score. I will let you know for sure!


Cass Hansen said:


> The main thing is to vary the undulating process towards the end of the score, from slow to faster as the carrousel speeds up and goes out of control. And this whole undulating thing only needs to occur as a short interlude in the piece, don’t have to drag it out. But bringing it back at the end would clench it.


Agreed! In the longer version I plan to make a more pronounced accelerando (it's already there elsewhere) during the final carousel waltz. It is already more chaotic than previous ones but this will push it to a new level.


Cass Hansen said:


> You know,…..just forget this whole thing, sorry to have wasted your reading time, I’m kind of a nut job at best and I easily go off onto tangents.


The _best _kind of nut!  Love all your suggestions! Very inspired and inspiring!


Cass Hansen said:


> But I would I the very least accelerate the tempo towards the end of the piece as the carrousel goes faster and faster (spoiler ALERT)and you can include the Big Bang if you want to or not, the self-implosion of the carrousel and horses, kids, parents all shrieking and flying every which direction. I can just hear all those brass droits, rips, dips, and woodwinds shrieking, strings doing their PYCHO licks, why you can even have the oboes pull their reeds out and blow as hard as they can. (I’m an oboist, always wanted to do that).


LOVE ALL OF IT! And the oboes going reedless... lovely and... nutty! 


Cass Hansen said:


> There is sooooo much one can do with this but……….as a legitimate concert piece, what you have is fantastic as is. My lunacy always surfaces when I discuss narrative music.


You are very good at it!! I appreciate all of your suggestions!! I have so much to think about before sitting down again to work on this piece. Luckily  I have to finish a jazz piece in the meantime.


Cass Hansen said:


> Okay, I’m being called for a turkey chow down in a few so have a good one yourself and tell your husband, if he says you look dazed, that you just read a fanatics manifesto on carrousels and leave it at that.
> Cheers, Cass
> [TH1]


Cass, I can't thank you enough for your time and all these suggestions. I will re-read all of them and think very carefully about how I can implement them in my piece.

I wish you and yours a nice Thanksgiving! Ours here in Canada has passed a while ago already. People already put out their Christmas decorations. I cannot even _begin _to think about that now! 

Best, Tatiana


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 25, 2021)

Gene Pool said:


> I read your introductory texts and went through this piece several times in score view. I like it and I like your writing, so I'll make a few general comments.


Thank you very much! It's very nice of you! ❤️


Gene Pool said:


> It's difficult to make comments on a piece of program music in progress since, if the music depicts the program successfully, then how do you talk about factors you'd typically address in a piece of absolute music? They still matter of course, but they have to be implemented in a different way. And that's part of the fun and challenge of program music: having more license for how you carry out your form and present your ideas while also making an intelligible musical whole out of your program. So bear in mind that since I don't know the specific goals of your narrative intent, the following comments might be irrelevant.


As I described after you posted this, this is more of a mood-to-music piece, my musical reaction after seeing the movie. A general feeling, an atmosphere that lingered with me and prompted me to write. My ultimate goal, without pretention, was a make a listenable piece, enjoyable on its own, even for those who never saw the movie, while still carrying over the drama, the racing feeling, the darkness, the dizzying carousel, the mechanical and inhumane side of the whole murder plan, the train motion, etc.. All elements that made an impression on me and found a place in my score.


Gene Pool said:


> *Program:* Narrative-wise, I'm having trouble following the demarcations of the dramatic elements of the program, so the following comments mainly stem from that, specifically regarding the common musical goal of musical identities, motion, and moving forward. You have plenty of motion, _interesting_ motion, but the _moving forward_ element, although _there_, could perhaps be a bit more obvious.


This is exactly what is planned in the extended version. This drive towards the ultimate denouement.


Gene Pool said:


> *Leitmotivs:* I have seen the film two or three times, and I'm wondering if you're using any leitmotiv techniques to any degree. If so, ignore the following. But it seems like you could have one for the always-smirking psychopath played by Robert Walker. One for the passive, common man out-of-his-element character played by Farley Granger. One for the unfortunate wives (or each wife). One for the train, and one for the carousel. Having distinct and contrasting leitmotivs for each of these might help drive and articulate the narrative, and could lead to interesting polymotivic interplay. I could tell that some of this type of thing is already there, so my preference would be for that, too, to be more strongly identifiable. Unsurprisingly, Wagner is my main reference for this approach.


I did identify certain themes to elements of the movie (the men, the train, the carousel,...) but I did not go as far as you suggest. My goal, if any clear identifiable one was ever consciously present in my mind at the beginning, was never to be that descriptive or to follow the movie as closely. 

The piece was more, _for me,_ a way to crystallize my lingering, but evanescent, impressions and feelings after watching the movie for the first time. Most of the elements were there from the start. Then I rewatched the movie but it did not alter my first impressions but rather reinforced them.


Gene Pool said:


> *Contrast:* At present there may be a bit too much sameness of effect (for me) with respect to the texture and tempo and manner of instrument expression throughout. You're good at the poly-textures and fragmenting techniques, but the occasional contrasting and more consolidated texture might be helpful in providing some relief to your main approach. And towards this same goal perhaps a bit more in the way of sectional expression to set in relief the more fragmented, soloistic writing. In this regard my frame of reference always tends to be how Stravinsky handled his episodes and vignetting in _Le Sacre_.


Stravinsky! Wow, the bar is high!  But of course I love him too!

The sectional expression contrasting with the soloistic parts are exactly what I had in mind in the longer, extended version of this piece. This draft was created in essentially one (very) long Dorico session, my first, so it was intersperced with a lot of the usual "distractions" associated with learning a new program. I could not stay focused long enough to go "all the way" in the direction you suggest as I simply did not have the distance necessary for it. I stopped at the present draft, with plenty of ideas in mind, but with no energy to continue. I just had to take a break, a step back, and ask for the comments that I'm now receiving in spades! Thank you all or that! ❤️


Gene Pool said:


> *Performance:* I know you have a lot of successful live performances behind you, and I don't know if you plan to get this performed, but although your music is well done in and of itself, this particular type of scoring—to the extent you've implemented it—is pretty certain to run into ensemble issues, and it would take more rehearsal time to work out than the unfortunate modern symphony schedules typically allow.


This is a very good point and a fact only mostly known to people who dealt with real orchestras. I discussed it with a friend, worrying about this exactly. It's not an easy piece to keep in sync. I have a few contacts that might help here. 

Thank you VERY MUCH for your thoughtful suggestions and comments. Much appreciated!! ❤️


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 25, 2021)

Xiheua said:


> I think structurally its very sound, some parts will sound much better with an orchestra and a few others quite worse. For example around minute 3 when the dynamics start growing, I don't know if the instruments have enough horsepower, or maybe you already counted on that.


Thank your for listening and for your kind words! The tuttis in the score are rendered at a level that you can expect from a regular orchestra. The rendition is from a balanced set of instruments. No mixer trick was used to boost sections or anything of that nature.


Xiheua said:


> I've found that the problem with using these languages (meaning atonal) in a big setting is that the orchestra loses potency when you don't write enough colour into the sections, because it doesn't have a harmonic support.


Could you please elaborate on that? 


Xiheua said:


> Another guy mentioned Berg, I think his violin concerto is a great example of how to balance that; when you look at the score everything is in constant flow, and there's plenty of originality in mixing different instruments in different registers dynamics etc. If I recall correctly Schoenberg piano concerto is also similar in that way.
> 
> The main motif is nice when you develop it into the eighth note pattern, but I'd go even further! And make some drastic rhythm variations with the pattern as it goes on.


As I mentioned before, this a draft destined to be greatly extended in time and enhanced in complexity.


Xiheua said:


> Anyways, I thought its a very nice piece! Will you get it recorded in the future?


Thank you very much! If you mean performed live (and recorded) then yes, this is the plan. The process has actually already started but it's still early for confirmation. In the meantime, time permitting, I might create an in-depth rendition "in-the-box", but other projects are already calling my attention. Best, T.


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## DCPImages (Nov 26, 2021)

Love


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## Romy Schmidt (Nov 26, 2021)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> Hello Romy! I'm not sure how to take your comment.  Is it meant to be sarcastic? If not then I should tell you that I was there quite a while ago and even was the one giving the masterclasses on many occasions back in my native Russia. More about it can be found here: https://acwc.ca/members/tatiana-gordeeva/


I'm not being sarcastic, I'm in awe. Still, if you need criticism, you'll get it 

At a certain level a composer starts feeling lonely in his or her field. Because there is no one who can really help you. Sure, ask a random composer to criticize your work and he will find something. Hence, all the comments. I'm not commenting on your work. I think you need the loneliness. Your inner self should be the mirror. Become the snake that bites its own tail.

Think of Bruckner. That man was very insecure and kept asking musicians for their advice. He rewrote several works and still was not satisfied. Besides that, as a woman I must say you're giving us a bad name. Oh dear, yet another woman who is feeling insecure. 

I hope I've rattled your cage more than enough


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## Xiheua (Nov 26, 2021)

Tatiana Gordeeva said:


> Could you please elaborate on that?


Yes of course! So an orchestra works similar to a piano, in the orchestra theres many instruments grouped together and the piano has lots of strings together. 

If you press a low note on the piano, part of its richness comes from the empathetic resonance of the other strings via harmonics, and the orchestra works in a similar way, except the resonance happens only -actively- due of the large space between the instruments (meaning, you won't get a richer sound out of a flute just by having the other instruments stand there silently metres apart, but if they play, it will be enhanced). Now, the more the notes fit into the harmonic series, the more resonant they'll be together; and my point is that in atonal pieces this happens less frequently, therefore the more dense the writing (voice count, not instrument doubling), the richer it will sound.


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 26, 2021)

Romy Schmidt said:


> I'm not being sarcastic, I'm in awe. Still, if you need criticism, you'll get it


Ok, so I misjudged your comment and was mistaken about its intention. Sorry for that and thank you again for your nice words. ❤️ It happens, especially on the web. 


Romy Schmidt said:


> At a certain level a composer starts feeling lonely in his or her field. Because there is no one who can really help you. Sure, ask a random composer to criticize your work and he will find something. Hence, all the comments. I'm not commenting on your work. I think you need the loneliness. Your inner self should be the mirror. Become the snake that bites its own tail.


Of course my process involves a lot of self-analysis and introspection but, at one point, it helps (me) to get some external input, some different point of view, others' perspective on my pieces. Nothing wrong about that I think. 


Romy Schmidt said:


> Think of Bruckner. That man was very insecure and kept asking musicians for their advice. He rewrote several works and still was not satisfied. Besides that, as a woman I must say you're giving us a bad name. Oh dear, yet another woman who is feeling insecure.


Wow, now it's your last sentence that leaves me wondering! Why such a generalization? If Bruckner was insecure and asked around (apparently a good strategy judging by his music ) would you conclude that ALL men are insecure? I don't think so... So why do you assume it of women, as if we are ALL the same, ALL cut from the same cloth. Why do you feel that my personal insecurity feelings should be a reflection of yours and ALL other women? That's sexist! 

I hope I've rattled your cage more than enough 

Fair enough, it was fun! Thank you for that!


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 26, 2021)

Xiheua said:


> Yes of course! So an orchestra works similar to a piano, in the orchestra theres many instruments grouped together and the piano has lots of strings together.
> If you press a low note on the piano, part of its richness comes from the empathetic resonance of the other strings via harmonics, and the orchestra works in a similar way, except the resonance happens only -actively- due of the large space between the instruments (meaning, you won't get a richer sound out of a flute just by having the other instruments stand there silently metres apart, but if they play, it will be enhanced). Now, the more the notes fit into the harmonic series, the more resonant they'll be together; and my point is that in atonal pieces this happens less frequently, therefore the more dense the writing (voice count, not instrument doubling), the richer it will sound.


Yes of course! So an orchestra works similar to a piano, in the orchestra theres many instruments grouped together and the piano has lots of strings together.
If you press a low note on the piano, part of its richness comes from the empathetic resonance of the other strings via harmonics, and the orchestra works in a similar way, except the resonance happens only -actively- due of the large space between the instruments (meaning, you won't get a richer sound out of a flute just by having the other instruments stand there silently metres apart, but if they play, it will be enhanced). Now, the more the notes fit into the harmonic series, the more resonant they'll be together; and my point is that in atonal pieces this happens less frequently, therefore the more dense the writing (voice count, not instrument doubling), the richer it will sound.

Ah, I see your point. Thank you for clarifying! And I will also recheck the pieces you mentioned before.

In a piano you do indeed have these sympathetic resonances between strings which, as was explained to me, are simply "passively coupled oscillators". Of course, and we agree, in an orchestral context, these do also exist to a certain extent intra- and inter-instruments but are usually very weak and inaudible by a normal audience unless brought forward purposefully.

In orchestral pieces these richer tones have to be created by proper orchestration as, I think, I did in _Hitchcock's Carousel. _Also instrumental articulations can play a role. On the other hand, by the very subject matter (suspense, murder), I _wanted_ to give some "atonal uncomfort" feel to my piece. 

In it, like in many neo-romantically inspired pieces, the expressivity also comes from the contrast between the quieter passages, e.g. instruments responding to each other, and the tuttis coming at the end of crescendi created by instrumental buildups, each bearing some part of "the harmonic load".

By analogy, in theater, good actors can create forceful moments even during asides (theatrical whispers) and soliloquies, as they contrast to dialogues in intensity.

Anyway, thank you for listening and for your interesting comments! ❤️


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## Cass Hansen (Nov 26, 2021)

Tatiana, I woke up this morning and reread my post to you yesterday and CRINGED!

See, this is what happens when you normally don’t drink alcohol and then feel compelled to partake in two glasses of wine BEFORE Thanksgiving dinner, loquacious babbling ensues.

You were kind enough to not mention it….thanks!

Incidentally, people in Canada are far better at spacing out their holidays than in the U.S. I lived for a short time in Vancouver BC and always appreciated having Thanksgiving in mid-October when the weather was still decent and colorful leaves remained on the trees and it didn’t feel like the opening bell for lifting the flood gates of Christmas mayhem. So civilized!

Read all your replies to everyone thus far this morning and you explained your rational and your future intentions for the piece unequivocally. Your inner thought process for this piece shows you are a master at your craft, especially the way you articulate it. ( unlike my ramblings.)

At any rate, I’m just so excited and so looking forward to the completed project. Stating this in more common vernacular phrasing, THIS COULD BE A HUMDINGER!

Now to take a couple Alka-Seltzer and get to work.

Cass


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 26, 2021)

Cass Hansen said:


> Tatiana, I woke up this morning and reread my post to you yesterday and CRINGED!
> 
> See, this is what happens when you normally don’t drink alcohol and then feel compelled to partake in two glasses of wine BEFORE Thanksgiving dinner, loquacious babbling ensues.
> 
> You were kind enough to not mention it….thanks!


Haha! You're very funny Cass! There was nothing to mention in that sense. Honestly I found your suggestions very original and interesting and your points eloquently presented. On top of having great ideas you know how to present them using elegant and funny prose. Was it the alcohol? I could not tell but whether it was or not I raise my glass to you! 


Cass Hansen said:


> Incidentally, people in Canada are far better at spacing out their holidays than in the U.S. I lived for a short time in Vancouver BC and always appreciated having Thanksgiving in mid-October when the weather was still decent and colorful leaves remained on the trees and it didn’t feel like the opening bell for lifting the flood gates of Christmas mayhem. So civilized!


Humm..Leaves remaining... Ah, Vancouver, of course. Montreal, not so much  But I agree, the delay between the holidays is nice!


Cass Hansen said:


> Read all your replies to everyone thus far this morning and you explained your rational and your future intentions for the piece unequivocally. Your inner thought process for this piece shows you are a master at your craft, especially the way you articulate it. ( unlike my ramblings.)


Thank you! 


Cass Hansen said:


> At any rate, I’m just so excited and so looking forward to the completed project. Stating this in more common vernacular phrasing, THIS COULD BE A HUMDINGER!


I had to look up this word  Wow, very nice! Thank you so much! ❤️


Cass Hansen said:


> Now to take a couple Alka-Seltzer and get to work.
> Cass


Haha! Take care! And please come back more often, tipsy or not!


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## Guy Bacos (Nov 26, 2021)

I've listened to this piece a few times and I really enjoy it. Very powerful and well-orchestrated; would have made a fantastic Hitchcock film score. How long did it take you to write it and orchestrate it?


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 26, 2021)

Guy Bacos said:


> I've listened to this piece a few times and I really enjoy it. Very powerful and well-orchestrated; would have made a fantastic Hitchcock film score. How long did it take you to write it and orchestrate it?


Thank you so much Guy for your nice comments!! Very kind of you! ❤️

The piece started as a quick sketch a few years ago after watching the movie. It was mostly my impressions turned into music for a small ensemble. It was also shorter than now and was then made in Notion.

Recently I decided to return to it as a way to learn Dorico. During that process I started to turn it into a full orchestral piece and also extended it greatly, keeping in mind that I wanted to double the total time to about 9 or 10 minutes and add several additional instruments.

So to answer your question, all considered (including learning to use Dorico along the way) I would say that it took a total of about two weeks to get to this point. I expect at least as much more time to finish it. This excludes any advanced rendering, mixing, etc. of course. I will get to all that after I finish working on my current project, a jazz piece, quite a change of pace, in all possible meanings of the word!


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## Gerald (Nov 26, 2021)

Great! Tatiana!


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 27, 2021)

Gerald said:


> Great! Tatiana!


Merci beaucoup Gérald! Very flattered! ❤️


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Nov 28, 2021)

Let me take a moment to thank you all for listening _Hitchcock's Carousel_ and for your generous comments ❤️ and to wish to our American neighbors to the South a very nice Thanksgiving!



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