# An environmental appeal to Nick, Doug, and other developers.



## midphase (Mar 19, 2009)

I just received my QLSO Gold PLAY upgrade in the mail. It arrived in a sizeable box, and inside the box was the QLSO package box. Inside the QLSO glossy box it was practically empty except for a piece of paper and a small sleeve with the DVD-Rom disks.

I have to ask....is there any reason as to why all of this cardboard had to be used? I assume that other PLAY products have similarly sized boxes which contain similar small pouches with the sample disks and are otherwise empty.

Since I have limited closet space, the glossy box is not something I'm going to keep, and although I'm recycling it, it seems to me that it would be more environmentally friendly if that box had not been created in the first place.

Remember when CD's used to come in long rectangular cardboard sleeves? Many developers have seen the light, Art Vista, Garritan, even Symphobia came in a smaller and more space (and shipping cost) efficient box.

So I appeal to Doug, Nick, and any other developers out there (Eric...I seem to remember Trilogy and RMX having big boxes) to be more environmentally conscious with their packaging, if you do your part...I promise I will do mine!


----------



## nikolas (Mar 19, 2009)

This has been discussed so many times already (at least I think so). 

I do think that Doug said that this is what marketing dictates in order for the products to sell more. Or something like that. The box surrounding the libraries is actually as important as the libraries themselves, in my opinion.

So I'm not sure there's much to be done. I discard (recycle) the boxes as soon as I get them, but keep the DVDs, of course, and the manuals, as well as a small snipet with the barcode on.


----------



## midphase (Mar 19, 2009)

Well...Apple has done away with big boxes, and as I mentioned above, several other sample developers have smaller boxes. I am not so sure if that's what marketing dictates....people who buy sample libraries don't exactly pick 'em by windowshopping if you know what I mean.


----------



## midphase (Mar 19, 2009)

Also, I'm not sure where this has been discussed so many times before...at least not around here that I could find in a search (unlike the "which string library is the best" posts which seem to pop up once a week).


----------



## Rodney Glenn (Mar 19, 2009)

For what its worth, I'm totally with Kays on this.

Overly sized boxes (and large printed manuals for that matter) should be avoided as they generally have greater negative environmental impact in terms of manufacturing (depending on process and materials) as well as transport (increased size and weight). It should also mean less costs for the developer (boxes, manuals, shipping etc) which is likely to translate into savings for the customer.

I think previous discussions were more focused on printed manuals vs electronic ones, but I could be mistaken. Regardless, they are related and IMO equally important.



nikolas @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> I do think that Doug said that this is what marketing dictates in order for the products to sell more.



Regardless of whether Doug actually said this or not (I don't know), this seems to be a common argument used by many manufacturers, not only VI developers. I actually find it to be ironic in a way, since company enviromental mindfulness might be a even stronger selling point than large flashy-looking boxes (I know it is for me at least).



Waywyn @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> To make it short: Yes, size DOES matter.
> 
> I could imagine see other posts (or better, just thoughts going through peoples minds who are receiving a small letter like package with a DVD in there):
> 
> Hmm, that's all?? I spent xxx bucks???



I respectfully disagree. The quality of the actual product (in this case software) is what really counts in the end, not the packaging. I'd rather put my extra bucks on better/less expensive software than increasing amounts of beautifully printed cardboard and higher shipping costs.



Waywyn @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> For instance, we go to the local market and buy groceries and stuff right away from the farmers, coming to the city. So how much packaging material do we save instead of going to the supermarket? I think after one's lifetime it might be around a few tons. What is that compared to a few things I order from music stores?



Sorry Alex, but I'll have to disagree again.  (still repectfully, of course )

I don't think these aspects are mutually exclusive. Besides, neglecting our own importance by comparing to and placing blame on larger issues is not only extremely comfortable, but also a great way to get nothing done. (o) IMHO, everything counts...even us buying VI's that come in large boxes. 

I for one welcome the increase of downloadable instruments and I'd also like to see those being transported the old fashined way, ship in smaller packages and with electronic manuals rather than large printed ones.

IMHO, the overall pros clearly outweigh the cons. The devs should benefit (less costs), we as customers should benefit (less expensive/better products)...and the environment as well (less negative impact). In short, everybody wins.

[edit]
Sorry Alex, I was posting too slow it seems. 

Yeah, I get what you're saying and I completely agree: we should do more than just whine about large boxes, of course. However, I still think do not think its an excuse for *not* to bringing it up. In fact, in this case we wouldn't be doing much, the devs would do the actual work (switching to smaller boxes, electronic manuals and more downloadable instruments etc)...we would just (as consumers), make use of our possibility to let the devs know that we care about these things. After that it is naturally up to each and everyone of us to do our best in everyday life in terms of our environmental footprint. One responsibility doesn't necessarily rule out another.
[/edit]

Just my 2 öres (Swedish cents).

Cheers

Rodney


----------



## TheoKrueger (Mar 19, 2009)

I really like the Project Sam - Solo Sessions package. Its black, its neat, its small and the paper is nice feel too. Perfect package!
I was also looking at Kirk Hunter studios website earlier, they have a "hard drive" option of shipping the samples. Perhaps that is the future after solid state drives come out. Dongle, library and package all in a single solid state hard drive.
peace out.
Theo.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 19, 2009)

Downloads are ecological. 8)


----------



## JB78 (Mar 19, 2009)

> For those of you who got Symphobia package compared to East West, Spectrasonics, NI stuff etc. ... did you also notice that the size might be different but the compressed material is about almost the same (weight)?



Well, the actual material is only one part of the equation. How many more symphobia packages would you guess that you could send in the same shipment compared to say SD 2? 

All the examples you mentioned are equally important, but I don't think that makes excessive box sizes suddenly less taxing on the enviroment.

ToneHammer is pretty damn friendly to mother nature though... :wink:


----------



## Waywyn (Mar 19, 2009)

Hey Rodney,

sure! No offense taken at all. This is a discussion forum and that's what we are doing 

I know what you mean and if you read my posts again, you might notice that I was only stating in general. Kinda like with statistics in mind.

Of course I am smart enough to know that the actual product counts and not the package, but how about the majority of ordering customers?

I think it is a psychological thing. Bigger, better, higher, faster, ... that's what real man makes happy 

But to be serious, ..... why do supermarkets use soft red or warm lights for the meat counter and why are those small sweets packages always located right before the cashpoint 

Its like silicon t*ts ... everybody shakes heads, everybody thinks its unnatural and not right, but in an unwatched moment everybody of us did at least for one time stared, drooled and gave a f*ck about if it's real or not 

I think I lost track on the last sentence ... lol ... but well, generally it is all reduced to basic human instincts. Bigger is more.


----------



## dcoscina (Mar 19, 2009)

I think downloads will be more prevelant in the future which will negate shipping fees, duty taxes etc. It is already begun with guys like kirk hunter and vsl. As Internet connections get faster we will benefit both environmentally as well as finanicially.


----------



## Waywyn (Mar 19, 2009)

dcoscina @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> I think downloads will be more prevelant in the future which will negate shipping fees, duty taxes etc. It is already begun with guys like kirk hunter and vsl. As Internet connections get faster we will benefit both environmentally as well as finanicially.



Yes, I see the future here too, but to be honest I wouldn't want to download a 192GB orchestra library  .. and also I really like to have something "physical" in my hands which is not a burned DVD.

Besides all that and I am aware that this might happen once out of 100000 times, but we had the case where the police checked a very big company here in germany and they found a little tiny app which was cracked. It spread over the news as an avalanche.

Now go figure what would happen if they find masses of self burned DVDs and HDs with tons of stuff on it - completely legal!!

I am not sure if it would be so easy to get out of this or if they would buy your story ... but as said, this would be just an extreme case.


----------



## Stevie (Mar 19, 2009)

Me too, I think that the boxes are way too big.
And if we neglect the environment aspect then lets focus on the space and manufacturing aspect. Smaller boxes take much less space. The package could easily be as big as a computer game box (not the DVD-only boxes!). That's a size I really dig. 
And for the manufacturing process... less material is less costs. So this can only be an advantage for both parties.


----------



## Ashermusic (Mar 19, 2009)

I think the whole industry needs to re-think this.


----------



## madbulk (Mar 19, 2009)

Hands up... how many of you keep the pretty EWQL boxes to proudly display on your bookshelves.
I'm looking at you, Dork. Stop doing that. You're the problem.


----------



## TheoKrueger (Mar 19, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> Downloads are ecological. 8)



Hehehe :lol:


----------



## JohnG (Mar 19, 2009)

When I heard that Nick had completely covered his roof with solar panels and has energy independence, I was inspired to do the same thing and we are now solar as well, so I guess I see Nick as rather more on the right side of the line than otherwise. Don't know anything about Doug! Probably drives a Hummer and flings lit cigarettes and McDonald's bags out the window in dried-out, irreplaceable forests. Or similar.

I agree that everything helps. When I compare, however, the hard-to-recycle rubbish that even a single obsolete computer creates, or the trash generated by our family's weekly shopping, or what's going to happen with my old electronic keyboard when I finally replace it, a few recyclable boxes doesn't seem like that great a sin.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 19, 2009)

It's not that I disagree with Kays, it's that a few thousand oversized cardboard packages aren't worth the finger muscle energy we're using in this thread. We all receive more junk mail in a week than all the cardboard every one of our sample library boxes will waste in our lifetimes.

Recycle the box, and spend the energy sending angry email to the Blue Dog Democrat jackasses.


----------



## sonomusic (Mar 19, 2009)

I agree with the sentiment here but looking at my shelves filled with Logic, Final Cut Studio and Shake boxes on it, this...



> Apple has done away with big boxes



is amusing.


----------



## spectrum (Mar 19, 2009)

We've done it all of the various types of ways (small, large, discs only, downloads, etc)

So why are we still using large software boxes?

Brick and mortar shops like Guitar Center pretty much demand the larger packaging for retail sales...they really don't like the smaller DVD style packaging as it tends to get lost in the shuffle and not attract enough attention on the shelves. Most of the examples sited in this thread of products with smaller packaging are not big sellers in the brick and mortar based outlets. So I think the larger boxes will be around for a while.

That said, the size of the box is only a very small part of the environmental issue. At Spectrasonics we are currently manufacturing far less physical packaging material than we ever have in the past. Our printed manual is much smaller and includes just the key authorization/installation/serial number info.....we've moved all our primary Reference Info to electronic format, which saves an enormous amount of printing and paper. You can imagine how massive the 75,000 word Omnisphere manual would be as a printed book! Since we update it regularly, this would be a massive waste (and this is what we had to do back in the days before our VIs) 

Also, since we don't use CD or DVD cases anymore, there's far less plastic in the packages, so it's much easier to recycle. We've also moved our video tutorials from a separate disc to online, so that saves another disc in the package. Now that we are using dual layer DVDs, we can include less discs in the package, but with more info. Also, we do our upgrades with minimal packaging. 

There are also a lot of other developments away from physical packaging that are taking place industry-wide too. For example, although we have far more users now than we've ever had, we are manufacturing MUCH less physical material than we used to do in the old sample library/multi format nightmare days of Roland/Akai/Kurzweil/SampleCell/Ensoniq, etc. And we look for download options whenever we can make it work.

So we're always looking for ways to make the products more efficient and eco-friendly.


----------



## billval3 (Mar 19, 2009)

I just recently received my copy of SD 2 and was thinking the same thing. Give GC and the like their big fancy boxes and just send those that order online the DVDs!


----------



## Waywyn (Mar 19, 2009)

billval3 @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> I just recently received my copy of SD 2 and was thinking the same thing. Give GC and the like their big fancy boxes and just send those that order online the DVDs!



To be honest and as mentioned above, but would you consider a 192GB download?
If yes, what would you do next for the datasafe? Buy a harddrive? How much economy is that compared to a cardboard box with a few DVDs in there?


----------



## cc64 (Mar 19, 2009)

Just extrapolating here.

I think that the real problem is not the cardboard that is used. Last year i ordered 2 libraries from one developer. They both came on one DVD each. I received a 2X2X2' box, that's 6 cubic feet. Start stacking those suckers into a Fedex Cargo Jumbo jet. How much Kerosene from LA to Montreal or Munich? 

Then how much space these boxes take in the Fedex truck, you can only stack so much in a finite space. Basically you'd have a truck that's filled to capacity but carrying air...Same for the jumbo jet...

Just theorizing but i guess you get my drift  

Best,

Claude


----------



## kid-surf (Mar 19, 2009)

One small step for man, one giant leap for mankind...

One inch at a time is still progress. I don't get the gripe against what Kays is saying..?

The idea that "this is what marketing dictates in order for the products to sell more." is a bunch of bullshit. In that -- how dumbed-down are we willing to drive our society before we realize it is a hoax perpetrated by knuckle-heads in ill-fitting suits. Marketing is fear based, their primary job requirement is to convince everyone that their products won't sell otherwise. (kinda like how Hollywood insists that artist couldn't manage to create films that make money if not for marketing teams)

Our society has become so much about a pretty package with little value inside. And not just products, people themselves. I'm thankful I'm dumb enough to not 'buy into' this sort of illogic. I refuse to give a crap about marketing and will continue to push for quality. I'm the guy who focuses on what's inside the box...after the pretty box has been long since forgotten and recycled into another worthless box acting as a pretty facade. (I'm using some metaphors here if you hadn't noticed.  )

After all, the best marketing tool is to create a great product. Word of mouth has proven, many times over, to work better than the BIGGEST "pretty box" -- Universally speaking.

This "marketers mentality" is so deeply imbedded in the zeitgeist that we even find artists waving the flag in today's world. Show me an artist who waves this flag and I'll show you an artist who ain't going to make it to the top of their game...much less create any "product" that "maters" now or in the future. Their headstone will read, "couldn't tell you what he created but boy was that box pretty!" 

Sorry, this marketing garbage strikes a chord with me.


----------



## kid-surf (Mar 19, 2009)

And -- I'd rather everything was direct download. What do I need more paper for? I don't. I'm not one of those idiots who thinks the pretty box has anything to do with what what I'll create, or not.

BTW -- I drive a big SUV. I like the spaciousness, not going to buy a small car. If I could, myself, design an Escalade that ran on recycled air, I would -- alas my job is to "make stuff up". When someone smarter than me invents it, I'll buy it, even though it costs more.


----------



## Ashermusic (Mar 19, 2009)

kid-surf @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> And -- I'd rather everything was direct download. What do I need more paper for? I don't. I'm not one of those idiots who thinks the pretty box has anything to do with what what I'll create, or not.
> 
> BTW -- I drive a big SUV. I like the spaciousness, not going to buy a small car. If I could, myself, design an Escalade that ran on recycled air, I would -- alas my job is to "make stuff up". When someone smarter than me invents it, I'll buy it, even though it costs more.



Sorry, but let me say this flat out: 

If you do not have a bunch of kids and you drive a big SUV just because you like it, you are morally reprehensible and totally hypocritical calling those who like the pretty boxes "idiots.".

There are a number of good-sized, not small, cars that do not guzzle gas like the big SUVs.

Liberty and license are not the same.


----------



## midphase (Mar 19, 2009)

"Brick and mortar shops like Guitar Center pretty much demand the larger packaging for retail sales...they really don't like the smaller DVD style packaging as it tends to get lost in the shuffle and not attract enough attention on the shelves."

At GC all of the software boxes are bunched up behind the register, DP next to an M-Audio Interface next to Apple OS X next to Trilogy. One needs a telescope just to figure out what's what back there. If you're not sure what you're looking for...a bigger box ain't going to help! What is wrong with replacing the big boxes with 1 large display box (or poster) and smaller actual retail units? I think the majority of people who purchase sample libraries and software are not doing so because a certain box caught their eye.

Record Companies used the same argument for many years to justify the cardboard boxes, but when they smarted up and got rid of it, I think CD sales did just fine (for a few years at least until Napster took over).

Regarding the argument that this is such a small issue that it doesn't matter....I guess you guys haven't heard of "act locally, think globally"?

I think every little bit helps...even this discussion. I hope it encourages guys who use large boxes to sell a handful of DVD-Roms to consider alternatives and options and I hope it conveys the idea that end users are looking up to software companies to set a good environmental example. 

I commend Eric for making an effort (and I am sure Nick and Doug are), but maybe they can go the extra step and do away with the big box too?

I agree that ultimately...everything is going towards a download format which will make all of this discussion go away. Once faster download speeds are available more widely (and for cheaper), that 192gig download won't look so daunting!


----------



## synthetic (Mar 19, 2009)

These boxes are more or less empty printed shells. I think your rage is misdirected. Choose your environmental battles. 

Now plastic clamshells, those are awful. We only have that on one product I can think of, and I'm doing my best to keep that to a minimum. 

I have a large recycling can full of trade magazines that gets emptied every month. (Yesterday's haul: Guitar Player, two copies of EQ, Revolver, MacLife, Musico Pro, Performing Songwriter.) Such a waste - I read maybe 10% of them - but there's nothing I can do about it. They all want my money so I'm on every comp list. 

And my mea culpa, as much as I understand they're a bit better for energy efficiency, I HATE fluorescent light. The strobing gives me headaches and the light is ugly. I compromise by having the ghastly things on my office ceiling and incandescent lights in the back to warm it up a bit. Hopefully some LED lightbulbs are coming soon with warmer light. And aren't fluorescents filled with bad stuff that's bad for the water table anyway?


----------



## kid-surf (Mar 19, 2009)

I have a bunch of nieces I cart around, a bunch of surfboards, and plenty of other reasons for owning an SUV. Not to mention an elaborate sound system the needs space to sound right, acoustically speaking. 

Point is: I "use" it. That is, when I drive it. I rarely drive...mostly I live in my cave, working.

The pretty boxes are not used by anyone. So, no, not the same. Well, I suppose I could make a diorama. 

Like I said, I shouldn't be expected to design the car, but I WILL pay for it. Design it, charge me what it's worth to you, and I'll buy it -- I would prefer it run on recycled air. 

Sorry Jay, I'm not going to take responsibility for a fouled up government's tactics. But I do vote.


----------



## midphase (Mar 19, 2009)

"I think your rage is misdirected. Choose your environmental battles. "

No rage here...bummer it's coming across that way.


----------



## synthetic (Mar 19, 2009)

> The idea that "this is what marketing dictates in order for the products to sell more." is a bunch of bullshit.



Guitar Center is the 300 pound gorilla in our industry. Lots and lots of people shop there and it's run by really smart guys. If they ask for better packaging, it's best to listen to them. Spectrasonics has had the best-selling softsynths and libraries for years, they would be foolish to change their winning formula.


----------



## spectrum (Mar 19, 2009)

midphase @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> "Brick and mortar shops like Guitar Center pretty much demand the larger packaging for retail sales...they really don't like the smaller DVD style packaging as it tends to get lost in the shuffle and not attract enough attention on the shelves."
> 
> Eric,
> 
> Come on...I know you've been to GC in the past couple of years (either Sunset or Ventura). All of the software boxes are bunched up behind the register, DP next to an M-Audio Interface next to Apple OS X next to Trilogy. One needs a telescope just to figure out what's what back there. If you're not sure what you're looking for...a bigger box ain't going to help!


The layout of every retail store is different. But because the size of our packaging matches the others in the industry, it's currently pretty easy to spot if they've our titles in stock or not.



> What is wrong with replacing the big boxes with 1 large display box (or poster) and smaller actual retail units?


Nothing at all....in fact it's a great idea. If I was running the stores, this is exactly what I would do.

Unfortuntately, we've tried doing this type of thing several times and it was a total disaster. The dealers screw this up everytime with the display units getting messed up or lost. And then these dealers sales go way down.

In our experience, very few dealers "get" this kind of 'representative packaging' concept.

Since the dealers on the whole know little to nothing about the software products they sell, one of their primary values for us is as a place where the customer can see that physical product is in stock on the shelves and take it home.



> I think the store would actually appreciate the fact that they don't have to devote so much of their storage space to your product.



One would think, but in reality we found that the opposite it true.

The one thing I've found over and over is that the dealers need pretty much zero complexity.



> Record Companies used the same argument for many years to justify the cardboard boxes, but when they smarted up and got rid of it, I think CD sales did just fine (for a few years at least until Napster took over).



Sure....but your talking about a lot more inventory and titles, so the retailers in that case demanded it.

In this case, the retailers are demanding the opposite.


----------



## kid-surf (Mar 19, 2009)

midphase @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> At GC all of the software boxes are bunched up behind the register, DP next to an M-Audio Interface next to Apple OS X next to Trilogy. One needs a telescope just to figure out what's what back there. If you're not sure what you're looking for...a bigger box ain't going to help! What is wrong with replacing the big boxes with 1 large display box (or poster) and smaller actual retail units? I think the majority of people who purchase sample libraries and software are not doing so because a certain box caught their eye.



+1

That's fear logic, is all... 

Matter of fact - I would bet there's not even any (fussed with) math to back up GC's claim. I would bet it's nothing other than "fear theory".

I'll speak for myself and say that I have NEVER bought software sight unheard based on a pretty box. Never have, never will. Now tell me how the math adds up to more $$$.

Seems like lazy (obsolete?) retailing ideas left over from the 90's. How bout a more efficient use of space. Less empty box, more PRODUCT = more $$$.


----------



## spectrum (Mar 19, 2009)

kid-surf @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> Seems like lazy (obsolete?) retailing ideas left over from the 90's. How bout a more efficient use of space. Less empty box, more PRODUCT = more $$$.



I agree with the concepts for sure. Certainly the retailers are often the last ones ever to follow the changes.

However, they are still important for the overall business...especially in markets like Japan, where the vast majority of business is done by walk-in sales in shops.


----------



## kid-surf (Mar 19, 2009)

BTW -- I get that, "retailers demand this, so what is a developer to do." But in that case, it reveals how dense the retailers are.

It's amazing how many fools we allow to the penthouse suite, few questions asked. It's not just our local retailer, or Hollywood, or Wall Street, we even do it with our presidents. 

My point?: Someone high up at these retailers is an idiot.


----------



## Waywyn (Mar 19, 2009)

As for my comments, I am not saying that the small things we can do, don't matter, but I think everybody can do something which is at least 500% more effective to save the environment.

As in my previous posts said, but I write it again and sorry Kidsurf I highly respect you, but even if you don't drive that thing very often - you own it .. and it pollutes the world like prolly 3 emission standard cars - no? Sorry there is no excuse. Big car is big pollution. Now how you compare that to a few cardboard packages o-[][]-o 

I mean all I am saying is that of course such discussions are very helpful, but there are so much more effective things to care about. Check were your power is coming from (nuclear plants probably?). We changed our power company recently to only receive energy made of wind and sun - now THAT's a bit more effective rather than moaning about a few cardboard packages.

Sorry, but some of you speak as if music software would be sold as much as daily newspapers.

On the other side, writing a post on a forum doesn't take much time and maybe you get some people thinking - thats all cool ... but why not actually DO something which REALLY cares about pollution and economy.


----------



## kid-surf (Mar 19, 2009)

Japan -- that surprises me. Would seem they'd be more tech savvy than the U.S. in that regard.


----------



## midphase (Mar 19, 2009)

Andrew is running a Poll in the Samples section. I think by the end of it, it will show that the majority of people buy software from online retailers more than brick and mortar stores.

Anyhoo...just some food for thought, I understand Eric's concerns with not upsetting the very people who are providing him with the majority of his business...but maybe slowly some of this can change and I do maintain that every little bit helps.


----------



## spectrum (Mar 19, 2009)

midphase @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> Andrew is running a Poll in the Samples section. I think by the end of it, it will show that the majority of people buy software from online retailers more than brick and mortar stores.


No, but it will show that to be the case of this particular forum. 

The vast majority of people that shop at retail stores don't spend time in pro-forums like this.

They also represent a huge percentage of the business BTW.



> Anyhoo...just some food for thought, I understand Eric's concerns with not upsetting the very people who are providing him with the majority of his business...but maybe slowly some of this can change and I do maintain that every little bit helps.



I hope so too.


----------



## kid-surf (Mar 19, 2009)

Something else occurred to me -- the one or two times I called GC in a pinch to buy some software their response was "Hold on, let me check...Nope, but we can order it for you"

Well, I can order it myself and get it over-nighted.

If I'm a retailer this is my angle: We'll supply the most software we can so that we can get the "instant gratification crowd" -- which means, as little wasted space as possible.

At the same time I'd be saying, "but eventually we'll lose even that market to direct download"


----------



## Ashermusic (Mar 19, 2009)

kid-surf @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> I have a bunch of nieces I cart around, a bunch of surfboards, and plenty of other reasons for owning an SUV. Not to mention an elaborate sound system the needs space to sound right, acoustically speaking.
> 
> Point is: I "use" it. That is, when I drive it. I rarely drive...mostly I live in my cave, working.
> 
> ...



Well, indeed, then you have a legitimate reason for choosing one and I have no problem with it. 

That said, there are SUVs like the Ford Edge that are big and more fuel efficient than a pig like an Escalade.


----------



## Waywyn (Mar 19, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> That said, there are SUVs like the Ford Edge that are big and more fuel efficient than a pig like an Escalade.



Yes, maybe there ARE, but it actually does matter what you drive


----------



## kid-surf (Mar 19, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> kid-surf @ Thu Mar 19 said:
> 
> 
> > I have a bunch of nieces I cart around, a bunch of surfboards, and plenty of other reasons for owning an SUV. Not to mention an elaborate sound system the needs space to sound right, acoustically speaking.
> ...




But...but I'm an artist. :D I need for the things I surround myself with to feel/look/be artistic and have the features I'm looking to use. Fords are ugly (to me) and don't have the features I'm looking for. Not to mention, I had a ford once and it ran like crap.

I'm a very hands on guy, I design a lot of the things in my life, I figure it out. But a car is a bit beyond the scope of my talents. :D Although, my buddy builds custom hot rods (had a TV show about it), I'd rather pay him when I can afford to spend $150,000 on a classic hot rod made modern.

I like nice things, nice things cost more money, back to work... :D


----------



## kid-surf (Mar 19, 2009)

BTW -- Alex, I hear what you're saying but can't we do both? I don't think we should assume this is ALL anyone is looking to do, or has done.


----------



## Waywyn (Mar 19, 2009)

kid-surf @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> BTW -- Alex, I hear what you're saying but can't we do both? I don't think we should assume this is ALL anyone is looking to do, or has done.



NO WAY DEWD!!! :D

Nah, surely and of course it is good to have thoughts about everything .. and I appreciate having people caring about certain issues ... but in the end I was just saying that there is so much more important things we can do.

I was reading an article recently about a guy who was saying that all those actions such as using energy saving light bulbs instead of big bright bulbs is really a drop on the hot stone and he gave some examples on what we really could do for the world ... and almost everyone.

So in the end you start thinking about what would change most: If all people would rethink their energy managment, ... or replacing energy saving light bulbs ... or prevent music companies from doing cardboard packages  Hell, if it would be plastic or other chemical shit, I would totally and 100% dig.


----------



## Ashermusic (Mar 19, 2009)

kid-surf @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> Ashermusic @ Thu Mar 19 said:
> 
> 
> > kid-surf @ Thu Mar 19 said:
> ...



I can only say that your priorities are very different from mine.


----------



## Stevie (Mar 19, 2009)

BTW, that's a bit offtopic. I use only energy saving lightbulbs. Only recently one of them exploded just by turning it on. And that only after using it for 1 or 2 years. They are supposed to run about 4 - 6 years. I was concerned about the explosion and read some articles on the net.
Did you Fu$%§&ing know that those lightbulbs are hazardous waste??? I'm really questioning if that's a big leap for mankind. Especially since in Germany they want to switch completely to those energy saving lightbombs (same as already in Australia). 
I'm looking forward to LED Lightbulbs.


----------



## Waywyn (Mar 19, 2009)

Stevie @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> BTW, that's a bit offtopic. I use only energy saving lightbulbs. Only recently one of them exploded just by turning it on. And that only after using it for 1 or 2 years. They are supposed to run about 4 - 6 years. I was concerned about the explosion and read some articles on the net.
> Did you Fu$%§&ing know that those lightbulbs are hazardous waste??? I'm really questioning if that's a big leap for mankind.



Hm, to be really honest I heard cars were exploding on gas stations only because the owner received a call on his cell phone and a certain part of the car and so the gas caught fire. It was just a one out of how many?


----------



## Stevie (Mar 19, 2009)

That was actually the 3rd that exploded.
But that's not my actual concern. It's rather the
toxic aspect.


----------



## kid-surf (Mar 19, 2009)

Jay, you edited some things out... But I'll respond to them since they were thoughts of yours.

Yes, I do live in a beautiful home and much of the art in it I created (but didn't sign as I don't need credit - though I appreciate the nice words from guests and a couple professional interior decorators who like what I did with the place and even offered me a job, which I declined), yes my wife is beautiful, yes there's a relatively decent chance my kids will be beautiful (aren't all kids beautiful?). Yet...at times...what I find beautiful is the very thing others find to be ugly, flawed or even dark. But that's an entirely different subject (i.e. "What is beauty").

The point is, with cars specifically, our government sold 'us' out. That has nothing to do with my appreciation for beautiful/well made things, it has to do with the fact that they made it very unattractive (-$) to build a car that suits my needs. Somehow I have a feeling Obama will help the car companies find a reason (+$) to build them greener. On that day, I will buy. If it makes me an evil person that I'm unwilling to sell my car and buy smaller, so be it.

Again, you likely use more gas than I do. 95% of Americans likely use more gas than I do. So how the heck am I the bad guy? I track about 4,000 miles a year. We live one mile from my wife's office. I think you're barking up the wrong tree...



Ashermusic @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> I can only say that your priorities are very different from mine.




My priority is creating art that 'matters'. What comes with that, at times, is a large paycheck. There's no chicken vs. the egg here, I'm artistic value first and foremost.

Thus, if folks eventually wish to pay me 3 million dollars to write a script for them, I will find myself with the means to surround myself (further) with work other artists have painstakingly (sincerely, honestly, authentically) created. Yes, that is 'one' priority of mine - surrounding myself with inspiration. Why should it not be?


----------



## kid-surf (Mar 19, 2009)

Waywyn @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> kid-surf @ Thu Mar 19 said:
> 
> 
> > BTW -- Alex, I hear what you're saying but can't we do both? I don't think we should assume this is ALL anyone is looking to do, or has done.
> ...




:D 



I would love to see a comprehensive list breaking down what 'seems' to be myth and what 'appears' to be valid. (Distinctions only because it seems like we're forever learning where to go 'next')

I did replace bulbs with florescent. I got the ones labeled soft-light so that they aren't so harsh. I have recessed lighting so it is a ton of bulbs, now there may a problem with them? Eesh...

It's like that plastic grocery bag thing, first it's that it helps, then it's that it doesn't register in the grand scheme.

tHing is, I don't have time to track everything I'm supposed to be doing. Why can't all of our governments come up with a comprehensive list (for the good of our planet) and say, "This is where we're at today...could all change tomorrow once we learn more, but it's not a bad place to start".

After all, look where this conversation is taking place...on a composer forum. :D


----------



## JohnG (Mar 19, 2009)

kid-surf @ 19th March 2009 said:


> BTW -- I get that, "retailers demand this, so what is a developer to do." But in that case, it reveals how dense the retailers are.
> 
> It's amazing how many fools we allow to the penthouse suite, few questions asked. It's not just our local retailer, or Hollywood, or Wall Street, we even do it with our presidents.
> 
> My point?: Someone high up at these retailers is an idiot.



Jay, pardon me. You are a cool guy and I like your posts, but unless you personally have owned or managed a retail store, distributor of retail products, or manufacturer of same, you don't know what you are talking about in this area. Certainly not enough to pontificate and attack people whose jobs you have never had. 

What evidence to you have that only fools occupy penthouse suites? Do you think the people who run UPS and IBM are all fools? I don't. When I buy their products and use their services, the vast majority of the time they work flawlessly.

Unilever and Proctor & Gamble have every resource available to them -- test after test, product rollout after product rollout -- and they experiment all the time with different packaging, formats, and so on. They still use packaging that is needlessly bulky or hard to dispose of or uses dyes and cardboard instead of more Earth-friendly stuff. If it doesn't appeal to consumers, how do you explain that they have number one or number two market share in most product areas? You seem to be saying they are all idiots. If it were possible to beat them with less shiny (and expensive) packaging, with less advertising, then competitors would be eating their lunch.

Why is there chrome decoration on cars? People buy shiny stuff that they think looks cool. Some people even buy big cars.


----------



## Ashermusic (Mar 19, 2009)

kid-surf @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> Jay, you edited some things out... But I'll respond to them since they were thoughts of yours.
> 
> Yes, I do live in a beautiful home and much of the art in it I created (but didn't sign as I don't need credit - though I appreciate the nice words from guests and a couple professional interior decorators who like what I did with the place and even offered me a job, which I declined), yes my wife is beautiful, yes there's a relatively decent chance my kids will be beautiful (aren't all kids beautiful?). Yet...at times...what I find beautiful is the very thing others find to be ugly, flawed or even dark. But that's an entirely different subject (i.e. "What is beauty").
> 
> ...



Jay, you talk a good game. Only time will tell if you are the kind of unique artist you present yourself to be or just a self-impressed mediocre blowhard. Statistically there are far more of the latter than the former in L.A. 

But maybe you are the real deal, which will make your pretentiousness a little easier to swallow.


----------



## spectrum (Mar 19, 2009)

Back on the topic of Big software boxes.... 

It isn't just the retailers, btw.

We ship our upgrades direct to users with minimal packaging and get LOTS of calls from users that are bummed and wishing that we would have included the big pretty box in their upgrade. 

A lot of people like to have their virtual instrument boxes on their shelves and it feels more like a "real" purchase to them.

So....not everyone views it exactly the same way.


----------



## kid-surf (Mar 19, 2009)

John, 

No pardon necessary. You're sharing your thoughts same as me.

My statement didn't imply that ALL in penthouse suites are fools. Clearly the vast majority are highly intelligent. I was referring specifically to software boxes. Maybe my conjecture threw you?


----------



## kid-surf (Mar 19, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> Jay, you talk a good game. Only time will tell if you are the kind of unique artist you present yourself to be or just a self-impressed mediocre blowhard. Statistically there are far more of the latter than the former in L.A.
> 
> But maybe you are the real deal, which will make your pretentiousness a little easier to swallow.



Wow...slam. 

Ok, one thing at a time.

Q: What game am I'm I talking?

You do realize that statistics don't mean shit to me, yes?


----------



## Stevie (Mar 19, 2009)

Ahhh kid, you reached a dangerous amount of posts! 1313 :lol:


----------



## nikolas (Mar 19, 2009)

kid-surf @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> Sorry, this marketing garbage strikes a chord with me.


Wrote a long reply, but read the replies before mine and I've been covered: Many things that you might not consider marketing, or you might consider garbage are very factual and make perfect sense to someone who knows (and also tons of money probably). 

The thing is probably the counterargument of being environmental friendly when you could potentially be loosing some $. I know what I would, personally, do, but I can't expect a company to do the same thing. :-/ Nor accuse the company for bad choices are regards to this.


----------



## rgames (Mar 19, 2009)

Stevie @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> BTW, that's a bit offtopic. I use only energy saving lightbulbs. Only recently one of them exploded just by turning it on. And that only after using it for 1 or 2 years. They are supposed to run about 4 - 6 years. I was concerned about the explosion and read some articles on the net.
> Did you Fu$%§&ing know that those lightbulbs are hazardous waste??? I'm really questioning if that's a big leap for mankind. Especially since in Germany they want to switch completely to those energy saving lightbombs (same as already in Australia).
> I'm looking forward to LED Lightbulbs.



Have a look at all the batteries in electric and hybrid vehicles. Talk about hazardous waste...

It's all about falling in line with the latest marketing craze. Same thing with the big boxes. Sure, it's silly, but it is a fact of big-box retail life.

And I'll jump on the OT SUV thread. I drove an SUV for seven years. I drove it an average of about four miles a day. My carbon emissions were less than half of those from my buddies driving the oh-so-popular (and heavily marketed) Prius. And they got the "clean vehicle" tax credit. Absurd. A testament to the triumph of marketing over logical thought.

rgames


----------



## PolarBear (Mar 19, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> Downloads are ecological. 8)


I skipped 50% of the discussion for ecological reasons. You know, power to have my monitor working. Anyway.

If you really think *boxes* are waste, then upgrading everyones *modem* in order to get a 20MBit/s download, well you'd need the generaction of modems after the next to get 100MBit/s downloads, plus upgrading the complete infrastructure to deliver that twice or four time completely in between, is a lot *more waste* than probably getting every product related to computers on DVDs in extrasuperlarge boxes carrying an additional solid brick with engraved personal dedication for your whole life.

Think please. Think! Please don't repeat every environmental bullshit that's spread at the moment.

Btw, bulbs, usual bulbs are also hazardous... they use Wolfram in them which is about the same hazardousness as mercury from the energy saving bulbs and so far I can only report a 20% failure rate of energy saving mercury bulbs in the first year of use. Nothing like the advertised!


----------



## Stevie (Mar 19, 2009)

rgames @ Fri Mar 20 said:


> Have a look at all the batteries in electric and hybrid vehicles. Talk about hazardous waste...



Yes, that's right, but batteries never claimed to be energy saving
and were not meant to replace and old less energy efficient product.
The idea was to introduce an energy saving product, that is good for
the environment. Now how crazy is that? We get a product that saves energy 
but higly pollutes the environment. What a horse-trade.

That would be like: 
We found a way to evite the clearing of the rainforest!
Instead, the ozone hole will have to grow by 10 times.
Yaaaay!!!!

Think of it, 2012 in Germany, we will be forced to buy these energy efficient lightbulbs, since there will be no other choice! We are about 82 millions of people, every household will own at least 3 lightbulbs, surely more. That would mean about 246 million pieces of hazarduous waste. Holy shit... And not to forget, if those lightbulbs explode you inhale all the nice vapours. That's fun for the whole family, yihaa!

I really hope the LED lightbulbs (with the same light output as common bulbs) 
will develop with a fast pace...


----------



## midphase (Mar 19, 2009)

"We ship our upgrades direct to users with minimal packaging and get LOTS of calls from users that are bummed and wishing that we would have included the big pretty box in their upgrade. "

What? For real? Names...we want names!


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 19, 2009)

"And they got the "clean vehicle" tax credit. Absurd. A testament to the triumph of marketing over logical thought. "

Without wanting to be too nasty, the last comment I remember of yours is that Americans are whiners and the media created the worldwide recession.

So I'm sorry, Richard, but in my opinion your reflexive shoehorning of extreme, irrational conservative ideology to every single topic disqualifies you as someone who cares about logical thought.

And whether or not the environmental problems with Prius batteries is a net gain or loss is beside the point.


----------



## rgames (Mar 19, 2009)

Well, I don't know if it's extreme, irrational , or conservative, but what I want to do is reward people for the extent to which they limit their carbon emissions.

Bottom line: my carbon emissions are REALLY freaking low. Why don't I get the reward?

(Hint: autmotive industry lobbyists combined with marketing campaigns)

rgames


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 19, 2009)

I know that everything you say is extreme, irrational, and - although this is redundant - conservative. 

Do you honestly believe that the automobile industry lobby, which has fought tooth and nail against improved gas mileage standards for years, wants to retool and make hybrids?

Our entire fleet has way too many SUVs. Period.


----------



## kid-surf (Mar 20, 2009)

Stevie @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> Ahhh kid, you reached a dangerous amount of posts! 1313 :lol:



Cue the dissonant cluster. :D


----------



## kid-surf (Mar 20, 2009)

midphase @ Thu Mar 19 said:


> "We ship our upgrades direct to users with minimal packaging and get LOTS of calls from users that are bummed and wishing that we would have included the big pretty box in their upgrade. "
> 
> What? For real? Names...we want names!



+1


That's amazing...and not in a good way.


----------



## Stevie (Mar 20, 2009)

kid-surf @ Fri Mar 20 said:


> Stevie @ Thu Mar 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Ahhh kid, you reached a dangerous amount of posts! 1313 :lol:
> ...



LOL, you are over it now! :D


----------



## midphase (Mar 20, 2009)

What I like about this forum is that someone like Eric will chime in to clarify his position and explain some of the behind-the-scenes goings on. Perhaps if Doug and/or Nick care to join the discussion they could give us some of their insights? 

For what it's worth, I am glad that the QLSO box that I received wasn't filled up with yet more useless packing cardboard or a paper manual which I would have most likely never read.


----------



## sbkp (Mar 20, 2009)

While I don't like the idea of excessive packaging, I agree with what has been said a few times already: Why are we even bothering to talk about it when driving 10,000 miles a year in a car that gets 30mpg puts something like 6,500 pounds of CO2 into the atmosphere and a single cross-US roundtrip flight puts 2,000 pounds of CO2 into the air!?

Sure we can feel good about doing everything we can, but I think we're optimizing the wrong part of our behavior if we're looking at whether a VI comes in a box that's 10x8x3 vs. 6x4x1. (or whatever... I don't have boxes to measure)


----------



## synthetic (Mar 20, 2009)

Because it's easier to point at others as the source of the problem. "Hey don't look at me, I bring my own bags to Whole Foods!"


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 20, 2009)

Excessive packaging the world would be better off with if we still had it: album covers.


----------



## sbkp (Mar 20, 2009)

@synthetic: lol
@nick: absolutely


----------



## midphase (Mar 20, 2009)

I am still not sure why people think this is an "either or" type of issue? I think we should drive less, use renewable sources of energy, use lower energy lightbulbs and appliances, curb our water usage, AND use smaller fucking boxes!!!


----------



## Stevie (Mar 20, 2009)

I rode my bicycle today


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 20, 2009)

I rode my 70+ MPG scooter.


----------



## rgames (Mar 20, 2009)

I only play golf courses that allow walking or have electric carts. 

The problem I see is that people aren't given enough incentive to switch to greener lifestyles. Tax credits and such are too tightly linked to lobbyists who push technologies that don't really get at the heart of the issue.

The SUV vs. Prius issue I raised above is a perfect example. Just because you buy a Prius doesn't mean squat about your carbon emissions. But the Toyota lobbyists pushed for a tax credit in support of their marketing blitz. Hollywood joined in and it became "cool". Unfortunately, nobody stopped to think.

If you give tax credits for how small your carbon emissions are, then people might start to think. So, for exapmle, if you cut your commuting in half, that's equivalent to using a car with TWICE THE GAS MILEAGE; hybrids give a meager 25% or so improvement. So, those people who do the equivalent of 200% improvement get no tax credit; those people who buy the hype and do the equivalent of 25% improvement get the tax credit. How in the f&*% does that make sense to anybody but the automotive industry lobbyists?

And another thing - my brother had an early-nineties Civic that got better gas mileage than most hybrids. And, of course, no tax credit.

rgames


----------



## midphase (Mar 20, 2009)

"The SUV vs. Prius issue I raised above is a perfect example."

I don't think so actually...whether you drive 20 miles or 100 each day...you're better off doing it in a hybrid or other low consumption vehicle.

However I do agree with you about giving tax incentives to people who don't drive very much in the first place. If that's your stance, then you should be happy that Obama is in charge...he's much more likely to enact something like that into law than McCain would have ever been with his whole "drill baby drill" credo.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 20, 2009)

"I only play golf courses"

Whoops, there goes your tax break.


----------



## kid-surf (Mar 20, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Mar 20 said:


> I rode my 70+ MPG scooter.



I didn't drive...suck it!


----------



## kid-surf (Mar 20, 2009)

midphase @ Fri Mar 20 said:


> "The SUV vs. Prius issue I raised above is a perfect example."
> 
> I don't think so actually...whether you drive 20 miles or 100 each day...you're better off doing it in a hybrid or other low consumption vehicle.



Good point Kays...

Now where's that Escalade that runs on baby seal tears!


----------



## kid-surf (Mar 20, 2009)

midphase @ Fri Mar 20 said:


> I am still not sure why people think this is an "either or" type of issue? I think we should drive less, use renewable sources of energy, use lower energy lightbulbs and appliances, curb our water usage, AND use smaller [email protected]#king boxes!!!



I'm still on the same page...I'm wit-cha.


Kays, your wish is my command. What post count you trying to get to? Determines what we should ague about (?? I typed debate) to get you there. :D


----------



## rgames (Mar 20, 2009)

midphase @ Fri Mar 20 said:


> I don't think so actually...whether you drive 20 miles or 100 each day...you're better off doing it in a hybrid or other low consumption vehicle.



Sure, but what if you buy a hybrid then start driving more? And what about my brother's Civic? What needs to be rewarded is HOW LITTLE you affect the environment.

Here's an example: let's say Dude A has some particular carbon footprint right now, let's say it's 1000 units/year of CO2 (pick whatever unit you want). Of that footprint, 500 units/year is due to his commuting. Now let's say Dude A buys a hybrid and reduces his emissions due to commuting by 20%, or 100 units/year. So now he's down to 900 units per year (and he gets a tax break).

Now consider Dude B who also has a footprint of 1000 units/year and the same commuting footprint of 500 units/year. Let's say Dude B keeps the same car but reduces his commuting by 50%, so he now has a commuting footprint of 250 units/year. So his total footprint is now 750 units/year.

Now condiser Dude C who also has a footprint of 1000 units/year and the same commuting footprint of 500 units/year. Dude C is really concerned about the environment so he buys a hybrid AND cuts his commuting. So his 500 units per year drops to 250 because he's reduced his commute, but then it drops an ADDITIONAL 20% because he's now driving a hybrid. So his commuting footprint drops to 200 units per year and his total footprint drops to 700 units per year.

So, summary:

Dude A: footprint drops from 1000 units/year to 900 units per year
Dude B: foortprint drops from 1000 units/year to 750 units per year
Dude C: footprint drops from 1000 units/year to 700 units per year

Given the f'd up way we're rewarding green lifestyles, Dude B gets no credit even though he has a footprint almost as low as the lowest Dude. Dude A has the highest byr far, but he gets the tax credit because he bought into the hype.

What we need to do is link the tax credit to how low the footprint number is. There are lots of ways to do it - buying a hybrid is one. But simply buying a hybrid has much less effect than changing your commuting habits. But that's not reflected in the way we reward green lifestyles.

You can, of course, make the same argument for lots of other things: we get tax credits this year for installing more-energy-efficient heat pumps. But what of the folks who just use their heat pumps less often? Why the f*&# don't they get credit? They're most likely having a larger impact than the folks buying new heat pumps. 

But, again, what lobbyists benefit from that approach?

rgames


----------



## midphase (Mar 20, 2009)

As I said, I agree that people who reduce their carbon footprints by other means should also receive tax breaks....and as I said before...you must be ecstatic that Obama won and not "that one".


----------



## midphase (Mar 20, 2009)

"Kays, your wish is my command. What post count you trying to get to? Determines what we should ague about (?? I typed debate) to get you there. "

Oh...I'd be happy with a 4-pager on a thread that I started!


----------



## rgames (Mar 20, 2009)

Nope - not ecstatic. Obama is leading by following.

He sees public sentiment attached to the ridiculous approach we currently have and is going to run with it because it allows him to regurgitate that sentiment right back to the public. Hence the new tax credits that continue in the "buy a hybrid" mentality without addressing the more logical and more effective "reduce consumption" mentality.

The "buy a hybrid" mentality is SOOOO popular and Obama doesn't have the cajones to grab people by the collar and knock some sense into them. (Which, by the way, is the essence of leadership...)

rgames


----------



## PolarBear (Mar 21, 2009)

Everyday things you get in a equally large box plus being wrapped in plastic: frozen pizza. So just buy one pizza less for every audio product and save the world with it! (And btw. just in case: I'm all for reducing waste. But first we have to change the real biggies where a 10% change from 50% influence is 5% whereas our boxes may have a fifty times less 0.1% impact overall if that at all!)


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 21, 2009)

That's completely unfounded, Richard. Yet again.

I don't know if Energy Secretary Richard Chu's interview on Charlie Rose from the week before last is on YouTube, but if you'd seen that you'd see just how far from the truth what you're saying is. These people know exactly what road to go down, and they've already made a start. It's not going to happen overnight, so they're investing in research.

Getting the down payment for a new smart electrical grid in the stimulus package was no mean feat. That's leadership, not following.


----------

