# Who's had real orchestras play their music here?



## Blackster (Feb 8, 2010)

Last year a full BigBand played a Christmas tune I wrote. Besides, I work with live played solo instruments or small sections. It's always a question of money involved in the current project you are working on.


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## JJP (Feb 8, 2010)

Since I'm an arranger and orchestrator, I've been fortunate to work with a number of groups from 80-pc orchestras to 30-voice choirs to big bands to string quartets and soloists. The projects have run the gamut of films, TV shows, videogames, and live venues.

Sometimes I also conduct, and on some projects I contract (hire) the musicians and the studio, engineers, music editor, etc. It really depends on the project and what the composer or producer needs.

I'll shut up now since this is sounding too much like tooting my own horn. o=< :oops:


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## dcoscina (Feb 8, 2010)

It's not bragging when you are asked JJP. Great stuff! It's a real trip to have real musicians interpret your music huh? Well, if they are good musicians.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Feb 8, 2010)

I've had conductors offer to play my stuff in Community College. I've had a string ensemble play an irish ballad along with myself playing Penny Whistle. As well as a full orchestra play an overture of mine, though badly. And it's...pretty bad.

Oh hell why not:

String Ensemble Piece "Sheherd's Call" http://www.nathanallenpinard.com/music/ShepherdsCall.mp3 (http://www.nathanallenpinard.com/music/ ... dsCall.mp3)

Orchestra "Ashes for Gold" - http://www.nathanallenpinard.com/music/AshesForGoldOverture.mp3 (http://www.nathanallenpinard.com/music/ ... erture.mp3)

I can tell you this, when you hear your work performed by a real ensemble it's a hell of a feeling.


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## JJP (Feb 8, 2010)

Nathan reminds me of a good point. It's important to orchestrate for the ability of the group that will be performing the music. I've seen some situations where a little bit of rethinking the orchestration can get better results by making things easier to play.

In particular I remember having someone hand me an orchestral score to reorchestrate that was part of a traveling show. The four french horns were unison up in the stratosphere playing an important melody. Since this was going to be played with different horn players in every town, that was pretty risky. The first time it was performed the horns were a mess. Was it horn players' fault? Partly, but it was also a lot to ask of an unknown horn section.

Shifting that melody to the trumpets would have changed the tone but provided much more reliable resluts. They even could have had the trumpets play flugels to soften the tone and it would have worked (though you'd have to pay trumpets for the double). I'd consider that a worthwhile tradeoff. I'd rather hear a slightly different tone than horns fracking all over the place.... which they did! :x


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## synthetic (Feb 8, 2010)

I've had one live recording, I got 15 minutes with the Brataslava orchestra. That was a rush. I stayed WAY conservative for everything, the end result was like I wrote for a high school orchestra. Next time I'll doing something a bit more exciting.


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## dcoscina (Feb 8, 2010)

Thanks for sharing those Nathan.


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## bigdog (Feb 8, 2010)

Just had a performance by the Knoxville Symphony Feb.6, conducted by Lucas Richman. I posted the mockups and score here last week in composition revire.
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15272
It was an awesome experience.


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## nikolas (Feb 8, 2010)

David? Why are you asking? Just curious.

First of, best of luck with the performance and make sure you grab the best possible recording, so that the archive will remain (and shared perhaps?)

Now, I've had a few string orchestra pieces performed, and other chamber ensemble pieces, but never a full symphonic orchestral work. I always had in mind who I was writing for, but tried to use it as some sort of an advantage (taking it as a challenge to write something interesting, yet *easy*). Of course knowing your performers will also help you in the aesthetic department...

Again, best of luck David!


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Feb 8, 2010)

> Nathan reminds me of a good point. It's important to orchestrate for the ability of the group that will be performing the music. I've seen some situations where a little bit of rethinking the orchestration can get better results by making things easier to play.



I actually did. The piece was quite simple. But because they spent the LEAST time on it as opposed to all the classical works they kind of failed.

Most of the players came up to me and apologized, and with they could've worked on that. Most of them liked it.


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## synthetic (Feb 8, 2010)

My worst fear is to show up with a chart that can't be played by humans, because of trombone positions or awkward oboe trills or who knows what. I've studied every orchestration book and score I can get my hands on. Can anyone give real-life examples of things you've seen written out that couldn't be played? 

Is a studio musician expected to sight read any part in the classical repertoire? If I drop Rite of Spring in front of LA players will they pull it off in one take? How about Prague players?


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## Andreas Moisa (Feb 8, 2010)

Had three scores for short films recorded with real orchestra, it's some years ago though. Hope there will be another opportunity soon


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Feb 8, 2010)

> Is a studio musician expected to sight read any part in the classical repertoire?



Typically yes. I've been in sight-reading segments at festivals for College Jazz Band. 

Regarding the "wrong fingerings" and "odd trombone positions" most of the people I've played with and spoke to say that only helps when it comes to easy playability for sight-reading. Pro-musicians should be able to play just about anything within human reason.


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## JJP (Feb 8, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> > It's important to orchestrate for the ability of the group that will be performing the music.
> 
> 
> I actually did. The piece was quite simple...



Oh, I hope you didn't think I was making a comment directed specifically at your post! Your post just reminded me of some other situations I've seen.

@ synthetic: I think the most common goof I see is trombone glisses or horn rips that can't be played as written. In those cases, it's usually because they're over too wide of a range. That's not usually a big deal though, because most good players will just start on the farthest note possible and play the gliss from there. Half the time nobody will notice.

More often I just see things that could have been done differently to make the music more idiomatic or more colorful. For example, I once had a composer write an arpeggiated figure in the cellos that started in the very bottom of their range and went to the very top while the rest of the strings basically did nothing. It wasn't a solo part or anything like that. When I mentioned that I'd like to break that figure up among the strings, he said, "No, don't bother. I know the cellos can hit all those notes."

Sure they "could" play all the notes, but that wasn't the point. It was going to be very tricky to play accurately as a section, and it wasn't going to sound as full and colorful as if it was orchestrated across all the strings. Not to mention the part was just technically difficult on the cello and he was really hanging them out to dry with nowhere to hide.

Sure enough, they spent a lot of time in the studio on that part of the music trying to work it out. I think they eventually rewrote it or just didn't use that part of the music.


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## bdr (Feb 8, 2010)

synthetic @ Tue Feb 09 said:


> My worst fear is to show up with a chart that can't be played by humans, because of trombone positions or awkward oboe trills or who knows what. I've studied every orchestration book and score I can get my hands on. Can anyone give real-life examples of things you've seen written out that couldn't be played?
> 
> Is a studio musician expected to sight read any part in the classical repertoire? If I drop Rite of Spring in front of LA players will they pull it off in one take? How about Prague players?




Last week on a session I mentioned in another thread one thing I did wrong was use the first flute as doubler which I shouldn't have.

Also wrote a 5 note fast chromatic run for strings, after the first run through of the piece all I could hear through talkback was 'ok, take out every second note'.


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## rgames (Feb 8, 2010)

I've had a number of things done in concert, not all of which I have been able to witness.

Hint: don't ever try to PERFORM in an orchestra that's premiering one of your pieces. I did that once and found it so distracting that I could barely play my part - too much focus on the rest of the music.

Probably OK for a solo piece (concerto, etc.) but I don't think I'll ever try to play a section part for one of my works again. Total brain fry...

rgames


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## synthetic (Feb 8, 2010)

bdr @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> Last week on a session I mentioned in another thread one thing I did wrong was use the first flute as doubler which I shouldn't have.



Can you explain? I'm not sure I understand. First flute doubling what?


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## stevenson-again (Feb 9, 2010)

i record live orchestras 'quite' often - not as often as i would like to. recently i have discovered the joy of source connect, meaning i can attend sessions virtually in the comfort of my studio.

it is very important to bear in mind the capabilities of the performers you are writing for and the amount of time they have to rehearse and prepare. sure you can stick rite of spring in front of any professional orchestra put not all professional orchestras will be able to pull it off the way you expect. you certainly wouldn't stick the rite in front of an orchestra as sight reading if you were doing a film/tv session, unless you had plenty of time booked and/or a really shit hot orchestra.

i have had the great fortune to be able to work with some of the best session musicians in london and i am constantly stunned by what they can pull off instantly. a good idiomatic part, with some challenging sections for them to get their teeth into, and they will rip it to shreds. very often the 1st take is the best one.

i personally feel very stressed about making them play footballs. if that's all you have to offer a decent band you might as well have done it with samples. if you record a live band it needs to be something for which you will get some value out of having it recorded live. consequently i write quite differently if i know it is going to be recorded as opposed to doing it with a mock-up.

write to the strengths of what you have - it all comes down to that doesn't it? whether it is a virtual orchestra, LASS, or VSL, or symphobia, or a live band, prague, bratislava or london, you write to what you know it can pull off well. for example, starting a really long hi harmonic, or sustained note up high and soft and in tune, and then having it run for 30 seconds while you noodle around with something else - i personally often tell the band not to bother with that or i'll leave it out of the score. that's hard and boring. but doing a groovy arpeggiated figure in the cellos alla scheherazade and they'll chop that up much more easily than a mock-up. so if i know it is going to be recorded, there is a luxury in not having to massage the mock-up too much. you can just throw the notes down knowing that players will bring them to life.

but you also have to know their abilities and the time you have for rehearsal. i have recorded in bratislava a couple of times, and while they can pull it off - they really need quite a lot of time. pretty surprising to see they struggle with key signature changes too...also intonation is an issue. i have played in plenty of orchestras myself and ordinary intonation is deeply frowned on, that was the most disappointing aspect. part of the reason for that is that in their hall with the headphones they can't hear each other too well, but that is not really excuse. if you tune up, and you know your instrument you should know where the tonal centres are for each note on your instrument.

no such issue in london.

if you want to do weird things - or unusual things from the context of the history of western music and recording a band, you have to allow for time for the musicians to get their heads around what it is you want to do, and you have to plan things meticulously. the more planning you do the less they have to sort out themselves, the faster the session/rehearsal will be. you really can;t have too much detail in a score. well - actually you can....sometimes - again depending what it is you want to do, it easier to say to a band, 'i want this light and french' or 'i want this sostenuto alla brahms', and they will just get you right away. i think it is always best to err on the side of too much detail.


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## Stevie (Feb 9, 2010)

I had the great opportunity to get a cue performed by the Filmorchester Babelsberg.
I absolutely agree, it's an amazing feeling to listen to your music performed by an orchestra.


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## IvanP (Feb 9, 2010)

I have 

Excellent experience, btw!

http://www.ivanpalomares.com/downloads/atencionalclientesuitemp3.mp3 (http://www.ivanpalomares.com/downloads/ ... itemp3.mp3)


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## synthetic (Feb 9, 2010)

Thanks for that, Rohan. Great information there.


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## JJP (Feb 9, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Tue Feb 09 said:


> i personally feel very stressed about making them play footballs. if that's all you have to offer a decent band you might as well have done it with samples. if you record a live band it needs to be something for which you will get some value out of having it recorded live. consequently i write quite differently if i know it is going to be recorded as opposed to doing it with a mock-up.



This is a good point. I can remember working with the London Phil and the bones basically had nothing but footballs. I was thinking, "We all travelled to London to play whole notes?" They literally had weeks of sessions that were mostly breathing exercises. It basically became a boring endurance test for them: How long can you play low, sustained triads? I can only imagine the way they must have be cursing us lousy Yanks.

The funny thing was that the soundtrack won two Oscars! :shock: So what can you really say in the end?


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## stevenson-again (Feb 9, 2010)

then i have a feeling in know the score it was that you worked on 

i am pretty friendly with lots of these session guys - i know what goes on and i have great stories i could bore you all with, but i shall magnanimously refrain...

another thing i stress about: stressing about whether i am doing something interesting enough for the musicians when all i should care about is whether or not i doing the right music for the picture!!

it's not a concert. it's not a 'lets see what impressive thing we can put in front of the band to make them like me' contest.

never-the-less, i do think it can be a bit insulting and pointless to put up 1st grade music and then make them sit there for 3 hours while you record 2 minutes of music. iiiiiiiiiiii think you know where i am coming from.....  so i do try and avoid it if at all possible.

they talk about the JW sessions, which are like major events for them. some of the best, most challenging and interesting music they play in their careers (according to them) happen in those sessions. after the 512th performance of mahler 5, the freshness can pall, so hearing it re-invented in a juicy star wars session can literally move them to tears, and feel really emotional about music for the first time in a long while.

now get this: i trotted along to abbey road 2 the other day to lend some moral support to a colleague of mine recording for a new HBO drama. not terribly big budget but a really fun gig. at the same time, in abbey road 1 was a major film session, with an A list composer. my friend's orchestra contractor never-the-less managed to get the absolute cream of the session players because my friend always presents interesting and challenging music and really pushes them to nail it, so they all chose to record his session. and by god it really did sound fantastic. so trying to make a session interesting does have its own benefits.


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## Waywyn (Feb 9, 2010)

Having orchestral regularly playing my stuff. Mostly with some german orchestras. Sadly I don't participate on the sessions too often since I have to continue writing for the either the next session or project.

It's mostly for games ... or well, the first pop production a few month in Prague.


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## synthetic (Feb 9, 2010)

JJP @ Mon Feb 08 said:


> Shifting that melody to the trumpets would have changed the tone but provided much more reliable resluts. They even could have had the trumpets play flugels to soften the tone and it would have worked (though you'd have to pay trumpets for the double). I'd consider that a worthwhile tradeoff. I'd rather hear a slightly different tone than horns fracking all over the place.... which they did! :x



I'm studying Ravel right now and he's not at all afraid to move the melody between sections even in the middle of a phrase. Apparently he would even move one note from oboe to flute if he didn't like the texture. 

Great stuff, more horror stories! Saving many of these for the archives.


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## arnau (Feb 9, 2010)

I have quite experience with real orchestras, more than with virtual, that's why I'm here in this terrific forum, to learn from you guys!

I normally use Cubase with virtual orchestras (Lass, Symphobia, EWQL Gold, VSL special edition) to show the director how is going to sound a cue. At the end I use Sibelius to transcribe it and give the final touch to the music (phrasing, articulations, doubling stuff, checking voices, re-writting some other stuff, dynamics, etc)

Cheers,
Arnau


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## JJP (Feb 9, 2010)

synthetic @ Tue Feb 09 said:


> I'm studying Ravel right now and he's not at all afraid to move the melody between sections even in the middle of a phrase. Apparently he would even move one note from oboe to flute if he didn't like the texture.


Yeah that stuff is beautiful, but you have to be careful of breaking things up too much in a studio situation. Ravel's stuff requires a bit of rehearsal to get the balance just right. It can be quite challenging to play. In a studio situation you don't want to get too cute with things because they can just bog you down when time is expensive.

However it is great to see how neatly Ravel dovetails the lines when he does toss melodies around like that. That overlapping of phrases gives the fluidity. That's another little goof I see made by inexperienced writers: passing lines between sections without dovetailing.


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## synthetic (Feb 9, 2010)

bdr @ Tue Feb 09 said:


> was told if I have flute doubling picc to give it to the 2nd flute not the 1st. Although upon further questioning it didn't seem to be 100% consistent through all sections of the orchestra.



Ah, I see. The double scale flautist wanted triple scale.


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## mathis (Feb 10, 2010)

Recording your music with a live orchestra is addictive, even if it is a garde B orchestra.
I recorded a film music in prague with a 90 piece orchestra and a 40 piece choir. Wow.


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## ChrisAxia (Feb 10, 2010)

Looks like there are many composers here lucky enough to have orchestras perform their work. I was privileged to have the LSO for a project, my one regret being that I was stuck in the control room throughout, giving feedback to the conductor, so I never actually got to hear the orchestra in the live area. Friends who attended the session at AIR studios and were seated up in the gallery said it sounded amazing. Next time, if there is one...

~C


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## stevenson-again (Feb 10, 2010)

the LSO are amazing. my all time favourite orchestra. i have some close personal friends in there as well (they play on my stuff quite often) and the source of all my best stories.

they have the most incredible sound. no wonder it's JWs favourite orchestra. they are off the scale IMO.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Feb 10, 2010)

I had hoped that Disney project would actually pay for an orchestra, but sadly it was a real low budget project. Other than that I haven't landed anything remotely close with a budget for that.

Oh well, maybe this year.


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