# Virginia Tech



## choc0thrax (Apr 16, 2007)

http://www.cnn.com/

Gunman shot over 40 people. That's a lot.


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## SvK (Apr 16, 2007)

This is horrible....

I rarely pray, but tonight I will ....for all those young lives that were snuffed out by a selfish lonely man that could not bare entering the great unknown by himself........

I feel ill to my stomach for all the grieving loved ones......

Today I am ashamed of being American...

rips your heart out.


SvK


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## PaulR (Apr 17, 2007)

SvK @ Mon Apr 16 said:


> Today I am ashamed of being American...SvK



That's interesting. No need to feel like that at all in my view. This what always gets said in the best of intentions when something weird and crazy happens. It's nothing to do with being an American or a Martian.
We have the same thing here from time to time - and remember - most importantly the numbers are not really relevant. It could 33 or 2 - it makes no odds. These people have lost it regardless of where they happen to live.
So in fact - you should be proud to be an American and happy you're not one of the stupid fkers that just decides to lose it for whatever reason.


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## Niah (Apr 17, 2007)

What is an american anyway?


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## lux (Apr 17, 2007)

I agree with Paul that being American doesnt make any difference in personal disturbances or sufferings, as much being Italian or whatever doesnt.

But about a point i dont agree



PaulR @ Tue Apr 17 said:


> We have the same thing here from time to time - and remember - most importantly the numbers are not really relevant. It could 33 or 2 - it makes no odds.



In this specific case number is important because it makes the difference between how much damage a disturbed guy can provide with a swiss knife or with two loaded guns (not to talk about war weapons in some older cases)

Numbers are an important indicator in this specific case in my opinion.

Luca


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## spoon (Apr 17, 2007)

oh my,
it´s really horrible...no words to explain such thing.


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## Alex W (Apr 17, 2007)

Man... this is terrible...

When the hell is America gonna tighten up its gun laws??


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## Brian Ralston (Apr 17, 2007)

SvK @ Mon Apr 16 said:


> Today I am ashamed of being American...



yeah...I too am a bit confused by your statement of being ashamed to be an American, epecially since it has been confirmed that is was not an American who did the shootings, but Cho Seung-Hui, a 23 year old resident alien student from South Korea. :?: 

It is beyond tragic. But this is not a situation that is due to anything other than an individual making horrific decisions. 

:cry: :|


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## Frederick Russ (Apr 17, 2007)

An incredibly cruel and pointless act. Some of the brightest minds and promising futures - gone. Massive tragedy and quite sad. My heart goes out to the victims' families and close friends.


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## Brian Ralston (Apr 17, 2007)

AP quote



> Among the dead were professors Liviu Librescu and Kevin Granata, said Ishwar K. Puri, the head of the engineering science and mechanics department.
> 
> Librescu, an Israeli, was born in Romania and was known internationally for his research in aeronautical engineering, Puri wrote in an e-mail to The Associated Press.
> 
> Granata and his students researched muscle and reflex response and robotics. Puri called him one of the top five biomechanics researchers in the country working on movement dynamics in cerebral palsy.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 17, 2007)

There's not much you can say about this, it's so horrible. Yeah we have way too many guns floating around our country, but that's probably not relevant in this case.

What this does do is put the ongoing violence we live with in perspective. There are something like 480 murders every year in Los Angeles alone, which is 40 a month. And much as I hate to say it, this happens in Iraq every day.


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## Aaron Sapp (Apr 17, 2007)

Or how about 438,000 deaths a year from cigarette smoking in the U.S alone. That's about 1,200 a day. :roll: Funny country~


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 17, 2007)

If you think it's bad here, you should see how it is in Germany. Pssssssssssshhhhhh has become part of the language. Europe is ahead of the US in some ways, but they're way behind California at least in that regard. They even allow smoking - like fricking crazy - inside the Musikmesse halls.


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## Niah (Apr 17, 2007)

I for one I'm not surprised about Svk comments. If I was American I would be ashmed as well. It matters not if the shooter was not American, it matters yes that this kind of violence and at this scale doesn't happen anywhere else. It would be naive to think that the society you live in is not responsible for this type of occurrences.


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## handz (Apr 17, 2007)

I really wonder why almost all those shooting in schools, mass murders etc are happening in the USA...

Of course that this insane benevolence in owning a weapon is one of the reasons but not only one.


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## SvK (Apr 17, 2007)

niah,

That's right!


Guns should be completely outlawed...end of story.....


SvK


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## Angel (Apr 17, 2007)

I hope the gun laws will change, too... but I hope it will not change in that direction that students are allowed to carry weapons inside a university from now on!

But it's not only the gun laws.
Here in germany, weapons are strictly forbidden.
So what? In Erfurt someone shot 16 people. He didn't only murder... he even broke the law by owning and using firearms. I don't think the relatives of the dead persons mind him breaking the weapon-posession-law.
I don't understand the gun-laws in US either. But here in germany, persons are shot as well....and.....yes yes yes... we kill all customers of the musikmesse with our cigarettes.

There is no reason for anyone being ashamed of being of any nationality.

Angel

...my deepest regrets...

EDIT: After the incident in Erfurt, german politicians tried to forbid ego-shooters like counterstrike, because the murderer played it
They don't understand, that murderers nearly always play CS, but not every CS-Player is a murderer. At last I didn't kill anyone but I played CS. And yes... I'm a smoker but I wasn't at Musikmesse.
Silly politicans everywhere!


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## Brian Ralston (Apr 17, 2007)

1. U.S. constitution, 2nd Amendment. In the U.S., we don't just apply the constitution sections that we agree with and ignore the ones that we don't on an individual basis. The principles are there for good reason and have merit. Including the 2nd amendment. 

2. There is no law that would have stopped an individual to do such a thing if that is what they wanted to do. 

By definition, the criminals are lawbreakers. There is nothing one can do in such a situaiton when an individual is going to commit such an act with the full intent and will of taking their own life as a price for their actions. If he wanted a gun...he would have been able to get one regardless of some piece of paper that says "guns are illegal." Criminals and these sick individuals don't give a crap about what the law says. The law also says it is illegal to murder people...that didn't stop him from doing so. I am also sure the campus is a "weapons free zone" as most college campuses are. That did not stop him either. 

If the guy got his weapons by applying for a handgun permit...waited his 10 days or whatever it was...he would have gotten one anway because he had no criminal history. If he did not get his weapons from the local gun-mart...that means he got them on the black market anyway...which he would have still been able to do regardless of whether there is an outlaw on the weapons or not. I don't really see how outlawing the weapons stops anyone other than those who choose to follow the laws. And an individual going on a murder spree is definitely not choosing to follow the laws. 

3. I would be willing to bet a lot of money if there were a student in one of the classrooms this lunatic visited who were trained to use a firearm and who had the permit to carry one on their person, the shooter would have been shot and taken down before over 30 lives were lost. 

The gun is just a tool. The individual behind it, in this case, is the luntic murderer. He could have driven a car into a crowd of individuals on the campus lawn and killed just as many. Would you then argue that we would have to outlaw cars?

It is also starting to look like this guy had many motivations and grievences driving his actions...one being a case of the "have's" vs. the "have nots." A hatred of the "rich kids."

Jealously can be a strong emotion when it gets out of control.


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## Scott Cairns (Apr 17, 2007)

[harsh rant ahead] You know, I wish they would show pictures of people who have died by a bullet to everyone that purchases or picks up a gun. It might make the wielder more aware of the potential damage they can reek. A tiny bullet hole at the front turns into a exit wound, sometimes the size of a dinner plate at the back.

They did it to me when I was in the Army and despite how disturbing the experience was, I count it as a good thing that they showed me what guns truly do. 

I hate guns, cant stand them.


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## Brian Ralston (Apr 17, 2007)

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## choc0thrax (Apr 17, 2007)

It's not restricted to the U.S. but I have to say I feel a lot safer in Canada. 8) Anyone determined on killing can get a hold of a gun but in general I feel a lot safer living in a place where not everyone is walking around with guns.


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## James W.G. Smith (Apr 17, 2007)

Brian Ralston @ Tue Apr 17 said:


> Niah @ Tue Apr 17 said:
> 
> 
> > I for one I'm not surprised about Svk comments. If I was American I would be ashmed as well. It matters not if the shooter was not American, *it matters yes that this kind of violence and at this scale doesn't happen anywhere else.*
> ...



Very true. Me personally I'm not ashamed of myself but rather this country as a whole because of the increasing amount of alienation and apathy that this culture is breeding, which I believe may be one of the many, many reasons why things like this happen. Tragic, really, for everyone involved (including the shooter, and what must have pushed him to do something like that).

James


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## Alex W (Apr 17, 2007)

The gun laws are really a cultural thing - they're not about to change...

I think Michael Moore explained it all pretty well in Bowling for Columbine. I remember there being something about Canadian gun laws being almost exactly the same as the US ones or something... yet there's barely any gun deaths per year in comparison.

As people have said though, this sort of thing can happen anywhere, regardless of gun laws - if there's a will there's a way.

Here's the worst Australian one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_bryant

I remember John Howard outlawing semi-automatic rifles and magazine extensions in the aftermath of the Port Arthur massacre...


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## Thonex (Apr 17, 2007)

Niah @ Tue Apr 17 said:


> I for one I'm not surprised about Svk comments. If I was American I would be ashmed as well. It matters not if the shooter was not American, it matters yes that this kind of violence and at this scale doesn't happen anywhere else. It would be naive to think that the society you live in is not responsible for this type of occurrences.



350 deaths in Russian school massacre.... 

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09 ... index.html


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## midphase (Apr 18, 2007)

Well...since guns are not going to be blamed for this...rest assured that Gears of War and Grand Theft Auto SA are about to be under attack very soon!


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## Waywyn (Apr 18, 2007)

midphase @ Wed Apr 18 said:


> Well...since guns are not going to be blamed for this...rest assured that Gears of War and Grand Theft Auto SA are about to be under attack very soon!



Hehe, yeah, I was about to ask, which game will be elected this time for "it-temped-me-to-do-a-big-massacre"-award ...

Oh, yes ... and next time we start to forbid relationships too, because amok runs could also resolve of this ...


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## Scott Cairns (Apr 18, 2007)

Its funny, before they blamed games for random violence, they blamed rock music. :roll:


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## handz (Apr 18, 2007)

Thonex @ Tue Apr 17 said:


> Niah @ Tue Apr 17 said:
> 
> 
> > I for one I'm not surprised about Svk comments. If I was American I would be ashmed as well. It matters not if the shooter was not American, it matters yes that this kind of violence and at this scale doesn't happen anywhere else. It would be naive to think that the society you live in is not responsible for this type of occurrences.
> ...




Man this is absolutely diferent story....did you read it whole? 
Terrorists....


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## Aaron Sapp (Apr 18, 2007)

http://www2.indystar.com/library/factfiles/crime/school_violence/school_shootings.html (http://www2.indystar.com/library/factfi ... tings.html)


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## Ed (Apr 18, 2007)

Alex W @ Tue Apr 17 said:


> I think Michael Moore explained it all pretty well in Bowling for Columbine. I remember there being something about Canadian gun laws being almost exactly the same as the US ones or something... yet there's barely any gun deaths per year in comparison.



The annoying thing about Moore for me is that even if he's right he misrepresents his subjects too much to be considered a credible source for any reliable information about his subjects. Shame really, he's a good film maker.

Ed


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 18, 2007)

To me the lesson is that teachers and school administrators have to be trained to recognize the signs of severe mental illness. I don't have the stomach to read a lot about this story, but I know that one of the killer's teachers was shocked about a screenplay he wrote and told the police, who couldn't do anything because he hadn't threatened anyone.

I'm all for the strictest gun control even though it's way too little too late for the US; if a severe law prevents even one death, it's worth it in my opinion. And that's completely irrelevant in a case like this with someone who's totally insane.

Brian, we could have a completely separate discussion about how our Constitutional system of checks and balances to prevent anyone from getting too powerful has been under increasing pressure since the end of WWII - and is near a crisis point right now. By comparison, to me the Right to Bear Arms - which was intended to "prevent the rise of a standing army" - seems all but irrelevant in today's world.

But this isn't Northernsounds of old, so of course I wouldn't think of even mentioning the subject.


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## choc0thrax (Apr 18, 2007)

midphase @ Wed Apr 18 said:


> Well...since guns are not going to be blamed for this...rest assured that Gears of War and Grand Theft Auto SA are about to be under attack very soon!



Right now Jack Thompson is probably twisting his nipples in excitement over the fact he can benefit from more death.


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## José Herring (Apr 18, 2007)

Nick brings up some good points.

Actually the teachers did recognize sever mental illness in this kid. They sent him to counseling, he was put on Anti-depression drugs, he was noted to become even more agitated and violent then went on this shooting spree. This is a familiar pattern here in the US as all the school shootings in the '90 occurred from patients that where being treated for depression with drugs. The pattern if looked at is pretty simple. Personally if mental counseling is needed doping people up seems to be the least effective yet it's the most prescribed. If you're on these drugs or are thinking about taking them, read the warning label carefully..._“Antidepressants increase the risk of suicidal thinking and behavior ... in children and adolescents with major depressive disorder and other psychiatric disorders,”_

On the other side of it there needs to be some sort of responsibility placed on gun shop owners and manufactures. If a toy kills a kid the manufacture can be sued, but if a gun kills a kid everybody throws up the "right to bear arms" bullshit. Some cracked out old woman sues McDonalds because she spills coffee and burns her lap, but there's never even been a lawsuit against a gun manufacture. Why?, No negligence? The guns are fully functional and work as intended. :roll: 

Even the sales man should be somewhat accountable. They interviewed the guy that sold the gun and he was like, "ummm....duh...I couldn't think of a reason not to sell him a gun....ummm...duh..... he checked out ok." Hello! You hayseed retard! An obviously whacked out drugged up kid comes into the shop looking for a Glock 9mm and the stupid gun shop owner doesn't at least ask,..." ya know kid...what might you use this for?" Stupid ass Virginia doesn't even have a cooling off period. He bought that gun in 15 minutes!

If there's any shame in living in this country it's people's lack of responsibility towards each other. In the case of the gun shop owner he wanted to make money beyond any responsibility of what his product would be used for.

In America there's been an internal arms race. The right to bare arms was intended to stop a government from oppressing it's people by giving the right to the people to form and arm their own militias. It has a valid point. What has happened though is then the government in order to maintain its power locally and abroad armed itself in WWII and the cold war era way beyond the ability of any individual. So then the individual clings even harder to his rights. I even heard one NRA official say that if the other kids have had guns too, the incident would have been a lot shorter. What a stupid motherfucker!! Does he really want a society where everybody is carrying a gun on their hips ready to shoot at the slightest provocation? He probably does. Having grown up with many reactionary, survivalist, right to bear arms, hayseed wanna be cowboys, I know there are plenty of people completely insane on the idea. I even had a few friends that wanted to arm themselves for the "soon to come inevitable great race wars". :roll: 

There was a class action lawsuit against tobacco for creating products deemed to be harmful towards life. Time for a similar suit against gun makers and makers of "mental heath" products that make more deranged the already troubled.

Jose


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## Niah (Apr 18, 2007)

handz @ Wed Apr 18 said:


> Thonex @ Tue Apr 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Niah @ Tue Apr 17 said:
> ...



Like Handz said, this case was totally different and it was political. 

I was talking about suidicial acts commited by students at schools and universities. 

People can blame guns at will, but the fact is that guns don't kill people, people kill people. Like Brian said one can use almost anything to kill other human beings, but this issue goes way beyond that. Nowadays the pressure is too much for kids IMHO, they are expected to be perfect academically, in sports, socially, pressured to be slim and to look like rockstars. Also schools and society in general don't prepare kids for failure, and when they fail is like their life is over because they are considered loosers and to think that if you are a looser at school you're a looser for life. After that the stage is set for kids to commit suicide....unless they overcome this.
To me the message is clear these kids don't want their death to go unnoticed... and thus the random killing.

However and with this type of scenario maybe it's not such a good idea to have a bunch of guns around. No matter how you paint the picture a gun is always to destroy and to take lives so why do you need one anyway? 
Also you can have the most responsible and sane gun owner in the world with wife and kids, one day he caughts his wife in bed with another man SNAPS! and kills everyone around. You can draw a hundred more scenarios to that.


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## sbkp (Apr 18, 2007)

Niah @ Wed Apr 18 said:


> People can blame guns at will, but the fact is that guns don't kill people, people kill people.



Sure, but there are numerous research efforts that show that handling a gun (or even just the presence of a gun in the room) increases testosterone and aggression levels.

I suggest that the presence of more powerful weapons doesn't necessarily increase the amount of violence in a society, but it does affect the impact (or "lethality") of it. For example, when significant gun control laws have been passed in areas (or whole countries), it's usually the case that the number of homicides drops and the number of assaults goes up by the same amount. (No, really, I do suggest it! For extra credit, go google my name and the words gun control.)



> Also you can have the most responsible and sane gun owner in the world with wife and kids, one day he caughts his wife in bed with another man SNAPS! and kills everyone around. You can draw a hundred more scenarios to that.



Yep. It's been shown over and over that guns in the home are immensely more likely to be used on a family member than on an intruder. (And not only because of the crime of passion thing you're talking about, but mistaken identity and children having accidents, etc...)


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## lux (Apr 18, 2007)

Those days I'm watchin some tv debates about this fact, here too in Italy, and here and there someone pull off this thing about weapons not having a soul, a gun itself never killed anyone and so on.

Personally i find this theory absolutely incredible. And most of times it comes from people that has a complete opposite idea about similar concerns like:

Speed:
Itself never killed anyone. 
Usa is still one of the countries that has the lowest speed limit fixed by law.

Drugs
Itself never killed anyone. 
Most world countries adhere to the international anti-drugs associations and have sever laws against any minimal usage of it.

Alcohol
Itself never killed anyone
Usa is one of the countries that controls usage of alcoholic products

BUT

when it comes to weapons...oh well...weapons are another story...weapons are not dangerous if used with care.... :shock: 

Being sometimes disturbed is a condition that happens in most lifes. It seems idiocy to me analyzing why this guy was disturbed instead of considering why, being hiim disturbed, was able to shoot and kill over fourty people...

Am i goin crazy? and am i the only one to think its just that evident?

Luca


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 18, 2007)

People kill people with guns.

Complicated issues can't be reduced to bumper stickers.


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## sbkp (Apr 18, 2007)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Apr 18 said:


> Complicated issues can't be reduced to bumper stickers.



What are you talking about? What about "Bush Lied"?

Oops. That one's actually simple.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Apr 18, 2007)

The NRA (National Rifle Assiciation) is almighty in the US.
The amount of money generated by weapons sales is astronomical.
The wild west days are gone but the need for weapons is still encouraged in America: "the right to bear arm" What a bunch of crap!!
And don't you dare question it: it's been imprinted in the US constitution.
Don't you touch the goose that lays golden eggs.
In the early eighties, I remember being at a party in Boston and this dude was explaining to me: "see, if the russians were ever to invade the US, civilians would be able to repel them thanks to the guns that they privately own. The final frontier for freedom!" 
Propaganda is very much alive in the US of A and we keep putting money in the pockets of the same greedy bastards that have been running this country for centuries!!
Guns are good o=<


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## Alex W (Apr 18, 2007)

Ed @ Wed Apr 18 said:


> Alex W @ Tue Apr 17 said:
> 
> 
> > I think Michael Moore explained it all pretty well in Bowling for Columbine. I remember there being something about Canadian gun laws being almost exactly the same as the US ones or something... yet there's barely any gun deaths per year in comparison.
> ...



Well it's good to watch any documentary with a certain degree of healthy skepticism.

In Michael Moore's case, everyone knows he has an agenda while making documentaries like Bowling for Columbine, so it's no surprise that he cherry picks the most affective dramatic stories and statistics for the film to make his point.

But the film did a great job of providing a thought provoking insight as to why gun culture is the way it is in the US, so he deserves respect for that.


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## Niah (Apr 19, 2007)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Apr 18 said:


> People kill people with guns.
> 
> Complicated issues can't be reduced to bumper stickers.



damn I thought I came upu with that one.

Seriously, I think that guns should be taken out period, but just that still isn't enough resolve this issue.

Secondly I can totally agree that Michael Moore's documentaries are very biased and pushing a political agenda. However, and I agree much Alex W's comments on this, Bowling for Columbine really struck a chord on the world, no matter who you are politically or otherwise. Respect indeed.


oh and on a further note when asked about the gun control Bush simply said that this is not the time to talk about that. >8o


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## José Herring (Apr 19, 2007)

The gun debate has heated up considerably of course.

For every action there's an equal and opposite reaction which imo often leads to an uneasy equilibrium where nothing gets done and then the problem floats in time subject to the dwindling spiral of decay then death.

Per our constitution we are allowed to have guns but at what point does reason need to step in. This shooter was committed into a mental institution, was known to be disturbed and was on drugs to "cure" depression (lot of good it did). Hello.....*if we ever needed a national registry to determine who gets guns and who doesn't now is a good time. * I hereby decree that from now on mental patients go on a national registry and aren't allowed to buy guns legally.

You don't give a license to drive to a blind man but at what point do we consider somebody so insanely ethically blind that he shouldn't be able to live amongst decent people or have the same constitutional rights? The constitution has a blind spot. It says that all men are created equally with equal rights under the law. Well I'm sorry that's not true. Some men where created completely insane and want to kill everybody. He doesn't deserve equal rights under the law. The criminally insane while they shouldn't be beaten or brain cannibalized or drugged certainly don't deserve the same rights as you or I living by the law wanting to help people. 

If you could take the brain surgery, electric shock and drugs away from the institution then an institutional lock up would have been appropriate for this guy and others like him. But since these mental institutions are, like prisons, creating more insanity than curing we're left with little hope that any of these guys will be dealt with and cured any time soon.

I have little faith that any government or government sanctioned institution is going to do anything in America to help the population in any way what so ever. I think it's time mankind evolved from his child like ignorance and just realize that modern day society breeds madmen. The very institutions that have gotten or support and our billions and trillions of tax and insurance dollars are doing nothing to make this world a safer place for good people to live. In fact quite the opposite. These bundling fools with all the money are breeding even more insanity than in previous generations and making this world a place where decent people can't even safely leave their houses or go to school.

I don't know about you guys but the delusion is over for me. Screw governments, screw state sponsored mental institutions, screw the right of nut cases to bear arms, screw the right of nut cases that defend the right of nut cases to bear arms. Screw conservatives, screw liberals no political ideology is helping and its all decaying the quality of life in America by concentrating on a few push button issues designed to get votes and gain power. 

Have the guts to call it what it is. People that professes to hate others and call for the destruction of the world and everybody in it are insane and have no rights to live amongst decent people.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 19, 2007)

Jose, I know that Scientology doesn't approve of psychiatry, but I have to say that there are people who do incredibly well with drugs that really do deal with clinical depression. Drugs are also great for other spectrum disorders such as Asbergers and Tourettes - if they're severe enough to warrant it, of course - as well as schizophrenia. In fact I have a relative with schizophrenia who has managed to graduate from college in his 40s, which is no small achievement; when I first met him 18 years ago he was so far from that it's unbelievable, and the difference is simply that the drugs are better. So I'm all for drugs in the right situation. In this horrible case they couldn't do anything, unfortunately.

Anyway, the problem with saying that mental patients can't have guns is that it's difficult to decide who's dangerous and who isn't. What if a competitive target shooter has a breakdown (nonviolent, of course) at age 20; does that mean at age 40 he can't shoot at targets? People do recover from breakowns!

It's very difficult to legislate this kind of thing fairly, plus as P de C pointed out there's a lot of money at stake. The NRA position tends to be nuts in my opinion, and I'm very much in favor of gun control however we can get it, but the whole thing is definitely tricky.


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## choc0thrax (Apr 19, 2007)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Apr 19 said:


> Jose, I know that Scientology doesn't approve of psychiatry, but I have to say that there are people who do incredibly well with drugs that really do deal with clinical depression. Drugs are also great for other spectrum disorders such as Asbergers and Tourettes - if they're severe enough to warrant it, of course - as well as schizophrenia. In fact I have a relative with schizophrenia who has managed to graduate from college in his 40s, which is no small achievement; when I first met him 18 years ago he was so far from that it's unbelievable, and the difference is simply that the drugs are better. So I'm all for drugs in the right situation. In this horrible case they couldn't do anything, unfortunately.
> 
> Anyway, the problem with saying that mental patients can't have guns is that it's difficult to decide who's dangerous and who isn't. What if a competitive target shooter has a breakdown (nonviolent, of course) at age 20; does that mean at age 40 he can't shoot at targets? People do recover from breakowns!
> 
> It's very difficult to legislate this kind of thing fairly, plus as P de C pointed out there's a lot of money at stake. The NRA position tends to be nuts in my opinion, and I'm very much in favor of gun control however we can get it, but the whole thing is definitely tricky.



Drugs can also make you more likely to go on a murderous rampage.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 19, 2007)

And your point is...?


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## José Herring (Apr 19, 2007)

I don't have time to comment in full but may later. But if you do your research you'll see that the drugs haven't increased the cure rate of the insane. Back in Greece 2000 years ago they used drug induced commas to cure the insane. The cure rate was 22%. Today....the cure rate is 22%. The witch doctor has a cure rate of 22%. In Rome people use to put an electric blowfish to the forehead of the insane and the cure rate......22%. So one concludes that the drug has nothing to do with it. No matter what you do 22% of the insane will get better. 

What has happened is that these new designer drugs according to their on labels, and the labels are going to get stronger and more detailed in the future, these new drugs actually make a percentage of the population even more insane. All these drugs do is restrict blood flow to the brain creating a drug induced euphoric state. Over a prolonged time the brain can't take it anymore. At best people start shaking, in the middle it diminishes a persons awareness, at worse they just go completely insane.

Do the research yourself. You'll see that these drugs just reduce the blood flow to the brain. That's it.

I'll find the Columbia and Havard studies that prove this. It's not just a Scientology issue. It's a 500 billion dollar scam.

Jose


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## Patrick de Caumette (Apr 19, 2007)

I agree with Nick when he says that drugs work well with some people (and a few of my friends are on it and seem to function ok) but it is very disturbing to realize that in just about every single case of rampage, the murderer was on Prozac, Paxil, Zolof...etc
This fact is of course totally repressed in the medias but it is a reality (Virginia Tech, Colombine...etc) Today another guy just shot three people dead. He was on meds.

Obviously, people that don't take drugs kill people as well but the rampage/mass killing under anti-depressants is something worth noticing. Especially when studies point at the suicidal/homocidal tendencies created by use of these drugs.
But of course, there's always the other studies that come right afterwards (sponsored by the pharmaceutical companies) that totally deny those facts... (o)


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## midphase (Apr 19, 2007)

Quote " It's not just a Scientology issue. It's a 500 billion dollar scam."

Sorry...but I could not resist in seeing the irony of that sentence.

Much love Jose!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 19, 2007)

"You'll see that these drugs just reduce the blood flow to the brain. That's it."

Not the least bit true, Jose. Sorry, I don't know how to put it politely, but not one of them works that way.

More importantly, I'm not for one minute saying that drugs cure all! I'm just saying that meds can work wonders and it's wrong to say that they're totally useless. My impression is that they're overprescribed and used as a substitute for working out problems way too much. That's certainly not a good thing!

However, my relative wouldn't have made it through college using Scientology (or any other religion) instead. They literally enable him to function.


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## Alex W (Apr 19, 2007)

josejherring @ Fri Apr 20 said:


> Do the research yourself. You'll see that these drugs just reduce the blood flow to the brain. That's it.



Um... no they don't.

Jose, like it or not, some people require drugs to function properly in society.

Depression isn't insanity, it's a physical affliction, or chemical deficiency which affects mood.

There is no cure for this, and although the methods of treatment are "shotgun approach" prescription drugs and psychotherapy, they are generally effective and when used in the right combination can usually successfully stabilize a patients' mood.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 19, 2007)

To state the bleeding obvious, there's a difference between appropriate depression and clinical depression.


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## Alex W (Apr 19, 2007)

yeah fair point, I obviously meant clinical depression.


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## midphase (Apr 19, 2007)

I wish that they made Anti-Depressant darts that I could covertly shoot in the butt of some certain individuals that I know!

There are at least two good friends of mine who are totally in denial about their clinical depression and who refuse to get help because of the "stigma".


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## Niah (Apr 20, 2007)

midphase @ Fri Apr 20 said:


> I wish that they made Anti-Depressant darts that I could covertly shoot in the butt of some certain individuals that I know!
> 
> There are at least two good friends of mine who are totally in denial about their clinical depression and who refuse to get help because of the "stigma".



Convincing adults that they need help is the hardest thing to do.


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## Brian Ralston (Apr 20, 2007)

josejherring @ Thu Apr 19 said:


> All these drugs do is restrict blood flow to the brain creating a drug induced euphoric state. Over a prolonged time the brain can't take it anymore. At best people start shaking, in the middle it diminishes a persons awareness, at worse they just go completely insane.
> 
> Do the research yourself. You'll see that these drugs just reduce the blood flow to the brain. That's it.
> 
> ...



WOW! I Mean....WOW! :shock: :shock: :shock: 

Jose...as a person with a Biochemistry degree, I would ask that while you are looking hard for those Columbia and Harvard studies, do your opinion a favor and google "5-HT" and "Serotonin levels". 

:? :shock: :|


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## Frederick Russ (Apr 20, 2007)

Some people continue to live with a biochemical imbalance where their body does not manufacture the proper levels of seratonin for a balanced brain chemistry. There are non-drug remedies that also deal with this imbalance. Although I sort of agree that the pharmaceutical companies are interested mainly in money, the assertion that balancing brain chemistry by reducing the blood flow to the brain is incorrect - its balancing the tryptophan levels which is the precuser to 5-HTP which is a precuser to serotonin production in the bloodstream.


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## midphase (Apr 20, 2007)

> do your opinion a favor and google "5-HT"




Hehe, Brian...for a second I thought you were being sarcastic and telling him to go and Google "5HIT"....sorry...I've got a sick mind! (but nothing I can't handle with some drugs)


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## choc0thrax (Apr 20, 2007)

There are more natural ways to try to solve depression and other problems than using drugs. I think 95% of your serotonin is synthesized inside your colon so bowel health is important! I just did a year of intensive study on digestive diseases so i'm chock full of useless facts. I can't remember where I read it but there was a study where they gave antifungals to mental institution patients and about 80% of them improved in their conditions. There's so many things that can cause mental problems like yeast, parasites, heavy metal toxicity and deficiencies in vitamins. Amalgam fillings you get at your dentist are actually half Mercury...one of the most dangerous neurotoxins known.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 21, 2007)

By the way, it turns out that there actually is a Federal law against people who have been committed buying guns. Selling guns to this guy was illegal.


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/21/us/21 ... ref=slogin


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## midphase (Apr 21, 2007)

I wanted to point out that we live in a country where when the vice-president shoots someone in the face, the victim actually apologizes to him.

What message does that send?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 21, 2007)

"Thanks for shooting me in the face, Dick."


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## José Herring (Apr 22, 2007)

Found this video. One of the few detailing the truth about the bullshit classification invented to put kids on Drugs. Micheal Moore has a brief appearance about 3 min in. What's interesting is that it does go into the increased violence in teens taking these drugs and compares it to the baby boom generation when these kinds of killings in schools didn't happen.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3609599239524875493&q=The+Drugging+Of+Our+Children&hl=en (Killer Kids)


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## PaulR (Apr 22, 2007)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/6574907.stm?ls

You people go on about drugs - you've failed to understand the main cause for all this kind of thing. The cesspool of genetics. Take a look at these women. These women have the genetics as you'd expect written all over their physical selves. They are basically only worth being in a lab and experimented on for cures of animal diseases - and then killed.

This is what you're dealing with more and more. Get used to it. Genetic and even anatomical abnormalities will become more prevelant as time goes on.


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## Evan Gamble (Apr 22, 2007)

PaulR @ Sun Apr 22 said:


> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/6574907.stm?ls
> 
> You people go on about drugs - you've failed to understand the main cause for all this kind of thing. The cesspool of genetics. Take a look at these women. These women have the genetics as you'd expect written all over their physical selves. They are basically only worth being in a lab and experimented on for cures of animal diseases - and then killed.
> 
> This is what you're dealing with more and more. Get used to it. Genetic and even anatomical abnormalities will become more prevelant as time goes on.




Sounds like something hitler would say :wink: 

Great link Jose.


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