# Lyle Murphy Books



## pcartwright (Jun 16, 2018)

In another thread I mentioned that I found several books by Lyle Murphy through the inter-library loan system.

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_Complete course in modern harmony, composition and orchestration for dance band, radio and motion pictures_ by Lyle Murphy, Hollywood, CA, 1948

This particular book is actually made up of four volumes titled:

_Modern Harmony_
_System of Progressions_
_Advanced Harmony and Composition_
_Basic Orchestration_
Truthfully, I didn't dig to deep into the orchestration book. It didn't really contain very much unique information compared to other orchestration manuals and, in some cases, was outdated due to changes in instrument design and capability.

************

_Creating New Sounds in Music with a 12-Tone System: Composing and Arranging from Chord Patterns_ by Lyle Murphy, Hollywood, CA, 1949

This particular book provides more explicit detail than the volume referenced above around Murphy's method. In this book Murphy specifically details voice-leading concepts that he summarized into a device called "the wheel" as well as composition methods. 

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I'm not claiming that these are the complete Equal Interval System, but many components of that system are undoubtedly found in these books. I would be interested to hear where EIS and these books differ in approach.

My intention is to parse through my notes and these books on the forum to check my understanding of Murphy's method (at least at the time of these publications). Any thoughts or comments welcome.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jun 17, 2018)

Obviously the course has been updated since 1948 but it would be fascinating to be able to see the origins of the course which this seems to be. I will do some delving to see if I can find these materials or if I can locate them as you have. The orchestrating part of the course probably evolved past what you have seen. That said it is currently good for Big Band “Golden Age”, 50’s and early 60’s Avant-garde techniques and that’s where it stops.

Thanks!


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## Aquatone (Jun 17, 2018)

After studying and teaching the EIS course and studying several other Lyle Murphy books, these are my observations.

The four "Modern Harmony" books are not EIS. One cannot divine EIS from these books. However, one who has studied EIS can see some basic principals. These books have little to no explanatory text which differs greatly from the Complete Equal Interval System which is what the current students study. As far as the orchestration book, yes it was geared for the popular music of the era but it is not an "instrumentation" book. Much of Lyle Murphy's writings on orchestration go beyond the technical aspects of the instruments.

The four Modern Harmony books were presented as exercises to be played. From the playing you "learned". According to the page "TO THE STUDENT:" An interested student could send the completed exercises to Lyle Murphy to be corrected via a correspondence course.

The "Twelve-Tone" book, which is still protected under copyright by the way, appears throughout the EIS course but it is vastly expanded. Lyle Murphy's basic theory is not explained in this book but some of it is on display. Later, Lyle Murphy covered many more topics that came from his theories and developed it into a horizontal system of writing. I find the Twelve-Tone book to be visually wonderful. I should point out that the musical examples and drawings are Murphy's handwriting. He was an excellent copyist.

PCARTWRIGHT, to put this into perspective, The Twelve Tone book is 63 pages. The Modern Harmony books - Book One Modern Harmony is 23 pages, Book Two System of Progression is 37 pages, Book Three Advanced Harmony and Composition is 22 pages, and Book Four Orchestration is 21 pages. These five books total 166 pages. The EIS course is currently 1,415 pages. If you are interested in learning what Lyle Murphy created, the Equal Interval System is by far the better place to invest one's resources. As David Blumberg told me, "If you study the (EIS) course you don't need the older books, if you only have those books you will want to study the course."

Matt


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## pcartwright (Jun 17, 2018)

Aquatone said:


> If you are interested in learning what Lyle Murphy created, the Equal Interval System is by far the better place to invest one's resources.



I would love to study the current EIS method, but until the current books are available for sale I'm stuck perusing libraries.


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## YaniDee (Jun 17, 2018)

Aquatone said:


> One cannot divine EIS from these books


EIS almost seems like a cult..Can't find even one paragraph as an example of "the teachings"..Everyone explains it in vague terms, or describes it by what it "isn't".


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 17, 2018)

That's because the EIS crowd protects that intellectual property so that they can sell expensive series of private tutoring. its not a cult, but you can forget about learning it on your own, they will do anything and everything to prevent you from being able to do that so that someone can sell you private tutoring instead.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 17, 2018)

well this cheap ass person will gladly study the EIS methods when they are in a book on amazon. Until then, probably not.


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## Farkle (Jun 17, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> That's because the EIS crowd protects that intellectual property so that they can sell expensive series of private tutoring. its not a cult, but you can forget about learning it on your own, they will do anything and everything to prevent you from being able to do that so that someone can sell you private tutoring instead.



I'm sorry that you feel that way. Have you reached out to one of the senior instructors, to get some explanation on how EIS works/a breakdown of some of the core principles?

Mike


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 17, 2018)

oh yes. I'm well aware of what the private tutoring costs. The information is not available any other way.


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## Farkle (Jun 17, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> oh yes. I'm well aware of what the private tutoring costs. The information is not available any other way.



Okay, I understand. So, it comes down to, does one value what the course offers, based upon the pricing structure? Each person can answer that for him or herself. And yes, Spud's course is designed to be taught that way (teacher/student, etc). It is what it is; it's for each person to determine for him/herself whether the time and price point is worth it.

Mike


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## pcartwright (Jun 18, 2018)

Farkle said:


> And yes, Spud's course is designed to be taught that way (teacher/student, etc). It is what it is; it's for each person to determine for him/herself whether the time and price point is worth it.



In one of the books (circa 1948), Murphy offers students the option to submit work to be assessed by him for $3.00 (about $30.00 in today's currency). Coincidentally, this was the price he charged for each volume of _Complete course in modern harmony, composition and orchestration for dance band, radio and motion pictures._

Again, I know that this isn't strictly EIS, but it doesn't sound like Murphy was opposed to self study based on this information.


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## Wake (Jun 18, 2018)

I have on my hands the first two books of EIS, from 1993.

Studying with a teacher isn't mentioned anywhere. Just dilligent
and perseverant "digging" on the student's part, coupled with note taking and regular re-checking of past assignments, of which there are many, which obviously shows that the page count means little - what's to be gained quantity-wise depends on the curiosity, intelligence and character of the student.

I'm sure the full course is mind-boggling in its scope, but frankly, these first two books cover harmony in a way that surpasses college-level knowledge - at least from the perspective I'm familiar with, which is jazz - when it comes to internal logic and efficiency, ie. being an actual _system.
_
Learning craft from an advanced teacher is an incredible advantage, forging a friendship with one is even better I imagine, but the whole EIS topic is IMHO needlessly suffocated by people claiming you _need _a teacher, and that EIS is impossible to explain (like you're five). Tou don't, and it's not. It's just preferable to study with a more experienced person, and it's just uncomfortable for people who go by their own name to risk infringing copyright I guess.

The Murphy estate is not doing a great job preserving the legacy of its genius founder.


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## Gingerbread (Jun 18, 2018)

Wake said:


> I have on my hands the first two books of EIS, from 1993.



It might be worthwhile to note that ideas and concepts cannot be copyrighted. If, for example, you (or someone else) were to use your own words and phrases to re-explain the concepts contained in those books, you would not be violating copyright. In fact, you could even publish your own entire book or website which detailed ALL the concepts and ideas in those two books, and as long as you used _your own_ phrasing and examples, there wouldn't be any violation of copyright.

(I'm not saying you would _want_ to do any of that; just that it would be entirely legal. In fact, it's the basis of all copyright law.)


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## Wake (Jun 18, 2018)

Well I never took the time to google this but it seems you're right.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/102#

_(b)
In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work.
_
It is by no means effortless to explain, and the concept is complex and multi-layered, but surely someone could have quelled the irritated voices of countless inquiring users... had the will existed.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jun 18, 2018)

Wake said:


> I have on my hands the first two books of EIS, from 1993.
> 
> Studying with a teacher isn't mentioned anywhere. Just dilligent
> and perseverant "digging" on the student's part, coupled with note taking and regular re-checking of past assignments, of which there are many, which obviously shows that the page count means little - what's to be gained quantity-wise depends on the curiosity, intelligence and character of the student.
> ...



First off I don't want to get into legalities, Spud created the course and I honor that, I'm not a lawyer but the main reason for the teacher is it is very easy to go off base with the course and the experienced teacher can make sure the student stays on track. I have seen numerous students start to go off and if I was not there to pull them back in or make them aware of things they were missing, well they would have missed things or developed bad or inefficient habits. As far as the estate is concerned, there are things that can be improved and hopefully will be addressed soon.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 18, 2018)

You know what? If someone would publish a complete book that explains EIS theory in its entirety, not only would I buy it but if I became convinced I could benefit from private tutoring to really master the method then maybe I would or maybe not. Just depends. Taking tutoring to master something is not out of the question. What is incredulous is the way the actual information is safeguarded and protected so that the only way to find out what it is, this magical EIS method we aren’t allowed to find out about unless we are willing to go through several years of private tutoring amounting to thousands of dollars spent. 

I actually have one of the course books too that one of the teachers sold to me as a preview. Years later I inquired about possibly taking the course because the curiosity was killing me and sorry but the course book doesn’t really explain much, I say on purpose, it’s more like a work book to assist with private tutoring. In any case when I was about to start it turned into this grand conspiracy when they wanted to know how I had obtained the book. In the end I decided more then anything I don’t have time to go through step by step hold my hand through several years of tutoring and the cost just irks me. Yes the curiosity almost got me. Publish a real book and I will absolutely add it to my collection of music theory books and who knows where they may lead but personally I think now that spud is gone you just have his family and former pupils trying to profiteer from the alleged intellectual property which there is no way to find out without paying the bucks for private lessons. Unless one of them breaks the chain and publishes the theory in their own words then it will continue to be shrouded in mystery, or you can pay the price and find out through a few years of tutoring whether it’s the brilliant thing that it’s claimed to be. But for me, snake oil comes to mind. I think if it is a credible music theory then put it up for all to see and compare rather then attempting to profiteer through mystery


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## Craig Sharmat (Jun 18, 2018)

Dewdman, have you had an in-depth discussion with an actual teacher? We are all willing to explain what the course is. Also check the work done by graduates and people who have taken the course, there is no better proof than that, there are better examples than others but the mass body of work produced by composers in this system should be proof enough. If you do not like what you hear than why waste time with it, if you do like what you hear it makes sense to look into it further.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 18, 2018)

It has been explained well that the only way to learn this system is through several years of tutoring. The system is NEVER explained ahead of time, why would they do that when they want to sell tutoring sessions


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## Craig Sharmat (Jun 18, 2018)

We don't want to sell, we like to teach, it is not a money making endeavor for many of us (my time is better spent composing monetarily). The system is explained if you want to have a Skype conversation (pm me here)...btw, one can get a lot out of the course within a few months...there is no obligation to take the course for years, you make that determination as you go.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 18, 2018)

Craig you know as well as I do that EIS cannot be explained in a single Skype call. Only a sales pitch can be made, which you are continuing to do now.


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## Gingerbread (Jun 18, 2018)

My perspective, for what it's worth, is that it sounds like it's a truly wonderful and novel way of understanding how music, composition, harmony, and orchestration work, in a conceptually different way than "traditional" music theory. Personally, I would love to learn more about it. I don't think it's a cult, a scam, or any of the negative connotations that have been thrown at it. That said, I do think it has failed to adapt to our new world reality--the Information Age.

Because Spud's estate has wanted to keep the information firmly proprietary, it has raised people's suspicions to perceive it as cult-like or secretive, though I think that is inaccurate and unfair. I presume the estate's motivation was because Spud genuinely felt a private tutoring system was the best way to present this complex system. It was also how Spud had always done things.

But times change. There are new and interesting ways to present complex information, _and_ preserve accuracy. For example, a subscription-based website with extensive, detailed video tutorials which extensively explain the concepts and examples, affordable to most any earnest music student. If a serious student wanted even more, private tutorials could still be offered. Nothing would be lost, but much would be gained.

The benefits of this approach would be many: de-mystifying the system so that allegations of "cult" or "snake oil" go away. Allowing more of the world access to understanding this unique and wonderful system. And yes, increased money for the estate. Win-win all around.


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## Wake (Jun 18, 2018)

_"It was also how Spud had always done things."
_
Nope. In the books I have, from 1993. there is absolutely no mention nor suggestion of private tutoring, and the advice throughout the material is tailored to a self-teaching individual.
Advice that is well-meaning, intelligent and plentiful. Such an important consideration couldn't have possibly eluded Murphy, so yeah, no. In 1993, he presented a method you could purchase and study for yourself by yourself.


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## Gingerbread (Jun 18, 2018)

Wake said:


> _"It was also how Spud had always done things."
> _
> Nope. In the books I have, from 1993. there is absolutely no mention nor suggestion of private tutoring, and the advice throughout the material is tailored to a self-teaching individual.
> Advice that is well-meaning, intelligent and plentiful. Such an important consideration couldn't have possibly eluded Murphy, so yeah, no. In 1993, he presented a method you could purchase and study for yourself by yourself.



Sounds like a valid point. I would personally urge the Murphy estate to seriously consider ways (perhaps like the subscription-based website I suggested above) to expand the teaching possibilities of this system. I know I would certainly be interested, and I suspect many, many others would too.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jun 18, 2018)

Wake, I believe if you asked any of those taking in 93 (a bit before my time but not by much) the only way to take the course was through Spud. Pasadena City College may have put out books at that time with Spud's approval as an experiment. 

Gingerbread....I agree with most everything you mentioned.


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## MatFluor (Jun 18, 2018)

Just on a short note - I just recently started taking EIS lessons and am at the beginning of Book II.

Yes, I get that it looks like a mysterious, closed cult, and on explaining, it comes off as sales pitch.

No - it isn't. Yes, it's Spuds IP, and he was very strong on the mentoring system. Yes, it's not for everyone. Let me say, in these weeks since I have started, I have a new way to look at theory, to explain things. It's not made to write theory books - it's made for working composers, giving you tools. Freeing you from certain things, and giving you possibilities. Ok - I know, it sounds like a sales pitch again - but let me say this:

The Teacher-Pupil thing is necessary - the real gold in EIS doesn't only lie in the books themselves, but also in the dialogue between teacher and pupil. How does he use these tools? Let me see some scores of yours made with EIS influence, what are the teachers views? You work, you make assignments, small cues that you could sell or whatever. Instead of buying some book, flick through them, think "ah, sounds cool" and then put it into your library never to be touched again maybe, you actively engage in the material. That's why it's worth. And the EIS people I got to know by now are all cool dudes, and have passion teaching, creating and helping. The terminology of EIS is different from the classical music theory and without guidance, you could really end up not understanding stuff, or seeing it the wrong way. Plus - it's not hard bound on semester term or anything. If I have a ton of stuff on my hands - I can just pause it for a while and work, and return. Unlike University, I'm not forced to adhere to the time-plans, I can create my own together with my teacher.

I don't care if people think it's Snake Oil. If it is, at least I don't see it and it helps me tremendously already 
Just don't go in there and think that this will fix all your compositional problems or is a "draw by numbers" thing. It isn't. And that's good.


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## Wake (Jun 18, 2018)

@mr. Sharmat
The publisher is EIS books, not Pasadena college.

Probably an experiment, yes, but it shows that EIS wasn't always what it is today. The times have changed obviously, but presently there seems to be paranoia wafting through from both sides, prospective students _and _the estate, for no good reason.

@Mat Fluor
Agreed on most points, except for "seeing things the wrong way" - from the little I've seen, after applying the 14 "rules" and the engine behind the Wheel of automatic voice leading there is simply no space for _wrong_, just aesthetically different.


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## MatFluor (Jun 18, 2018)

Wake said:


> Agreed on most points, except for "seeing things the wrong way" - from the little I've seen, after applying the 14 "rules" and the engine behind the Wheel of automatic voice leading there is simply no space for _wrong_, just aesthetically different.



Yes, but apparently it happened, and I can see some points where you could get off the rails. But hey, I'm just in the beginning - I haven't seen all or nearly enough to really talk confidently about the material itself - I can only say that it's great for me.


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## Farkle (Jun 18, 2018)

Gingerbread said:


> My perspective, for what it's worth, is that it sounds like it's a truly wonderful and novel way of understanding how music, composition, harmony, and orchestration work, in a conceptually different way than "traditional" music theory. Personally, I would love to learn more about it. I don't think it's a cult, a scam, or any of the negative connotations that have been thrown at it. That said, I do think it has failed to adapt to our new world reality--the Information Age.
> 
> Because Spud's estate has wanted to keep the information firmly proprietary, it has raised people's suspicions to perceive it as cult-like or secretive, though I think that is inaccurate and unfair. I presume the estate's motivation was because Spud genuinely felt a private tutoring system was the best way to present this complex system. It was also how Spud had always done things.
> 
> ...



Gingerbread, FWIW, I also agree with much of what you said. I believe there are ways nowadays to respect Spud's system, and maintain how he wanted to teach it (mentor/teacher to student), while also using the dozens of new technological and social ways to promote, teach and disseminate information. Best of both worlds, to paraphrase your point. If such a system could be put into place, it would be awesome.

Mike


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## Craig Sharmat (Jun 18, 2018)

Wake said:


> @mr. Sharmat
> The publisher is EIS books, not Pasadena college.
> 
> Probably an experiment, yes, but it shows that EIS wasn't always what it is today. The times have changed obviously, but presently there seems to be paranoia wafting through from both sides, prospective students _and _the estate, for no good reason.
> ...



Wake of course EIS would be the publisher....it's an EIS course. Addressing the paranoia claim, i don't know if it is paranoia but things certainly can be improved, I can make suggestions but in the end I am one person. That still does not take away from what the course is and how one goes about teaching it. I think implementing things along the lines of what Gingerbread suggested would help and we have a meeting planned to suggest similar ideas.


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## lucor (Jun 18, 2018)

I'd also love it, if the EIS books where available for purchase without the whole student commitment. I'd buy them in a heartbeat.


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## Farkle (Jun 18, 2018)

Wake said:


> @mr. Sharmat
> The publisher is EIS books, not Pasadena college.
> 
> Probably an experiment, yes, but it shows that EIS wasn't always what it is today. The times have changed obviously, but presently there seems to be paranoia wafting through from both sides, prospective students _and _the estate, for no good reason.
> ...



With respect, Wake, how much of the course have you seen? Books 1 and 2? The course is over 1200 pages long. Speaking as a graduate, and now a teacher, it is very easy to take a lesson the wrong way in any book, but indeed, in later books; having someone who has composed pieces using these techniques will be invaluable in helping a person learning the technique to avoid "taking the wrong lesson" from it.

The analogy I use is this: I can give you a book on boxing, and you can read still images about how to jab, and postures, and say, "ah, yes, this is the right way to do it, I put my elbow here, I do this, this is explained perfectly, I can go jab now." And, you may even go out to the bag and start jabbing, referring to what you've read. And you may be thinking to yourself, "I have this down, this is easy, the book taught me all the form I need, I don't need an instructor." Until an instructor comes in, and, by watching you, points out the 3 ways you're dropping your guard, shuffling back inappropriately, and chambering off balance. Three spots where (in a fight) you'd be lit up.

Having that extra pair of experienced eyes, when learning any sort of creative system is, in my opinion, essential.

As always, just my opinion.


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## Wake (Jun 18, 2018)

With respect, I instinctually skip through analogies without regret.

But to answer:

I wholeheartedly support the idea of guidance and mentoring, one on one. It's nothing but upside for those who are ready to invest a bit of money. On the whole, the course seems cheaper yet immeasurably better than most college degrees in the similar vein. Great! I wish life would let me do this.

But it seems disingenous to completely discard and deny the potential value of self-teaching, especially considering the creator of the method basically did exactly that, _and _left blueprints. It is extremely difficult but so are many other things.

Also, the vast majority of musicians would find the first two books quite enough, there's years of material here! Circulate these. Let the truly curious and devoted proceed to the remaining 10. Make these two as approachable as possible. My $0.02


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## Farkle (Jun 18, 2018)

Wake said:


> Also, the vast majority of musicians would find the first two books quite enough, there's years of material here! Circulate these. Let the truly curious and devoted proceed to the remaining 10. Make these two as approachable as possible. My $0.02



Fair point, Wake, and I agree. Books 1 and 2 can get you years of writing. That's an interesting idea. 

Mike


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## pcartwright (Jun 18, 2018)

Farkle said:


> With respect, Wake, how much of the course have you seen? Books 1 and 2? The course is over 1200 pages long. Speaking as a graduate, and now a teacher, it is very easy to take a lesson the wrong way in any book, but indeed, in later books; having someone who has composed pieces using these techniques will be invaluable in helping a person learning the technique to avoid "taking the wrong lesson" from it.



This is beside the point really. How can any of us know how far we can go in the material if we can't access it?



Farkle said:


> The analogy I use is this: I can give you a book on boxing, and you can read still images about how to jab, and postures, and say, "ah, yes, this is the right way to do it, I put my elbow here, I do this, this is explained perfectly, I can go jab now." And, you may even go out to the bag and start jabbing, referring to what you've read. And you may be thinking to yourself, "I have this down, this is easy, the book taught me all the form I need, I don't need an instructor." Until an instructor comes in, and, by watching you, points out the 3 ways you're dropping your guard, shuffling back inappropriately, and chambering off balance. Three spots where (in a fight) you'd be lit up.
> 
> Having that extra pair of experienced eyes, when learning any sort of creative system is, in my opinion, essential.



To extend your analogy, books on boxing exist and are available to be read by anyone. The same can't be said for the entire EIS method. I don't disagree with the analogy, and I also agree that having a knowledgeable teacher on the subject is critical for mastery. 

I vehemently disagree with the assertion that knowledge should be tucked away only for those willing to master the craft. Anyone with curiosity should be allowed to explore EIS in its entirety and experiment. That is my personal philosophy, and anyone is free to disagree with it. 

Despite what others have said on the forum, the fact remains that many people have asked for specifics of EIS over the years on this very forum, and the forum offers very little answers. This suggests that knowledge about EIS is actively withheld.

As I said in the OP, I plan to review the books and provide my perspective on the forum knowing that it is an incomplete view of EIS. I will undoubtedly get things wrong. It's up to people on the forum who have formal experience with the system to correct otherwise misinformation will spread. A better solution would be if EIS sold copies of the method openly. However, I do not wish to discount or degrade the investment people have made in time and money to mastering this system. Thus, I propose the following:

Allow anyone to purchase all EIS books through an online store.
Use the mentor/instructional process as a formal certification program to designate/differentiate those who have truly mastered the system. 
The current list of EIS graduates would be an "inaugural" class of sorts.
This way, information can be shared and discussed by more musicians, and EIS mastery is still designated in a meaningful way.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 18, 2018)

Are you seriously comparing Juliard to EIS? Gimme a break.

And yes most definitely I would need to learn a lot more about the material before I could say whether I would want further tutoring. Might not need it if the information is presented well in book form. Or I might decide it’s nothing but snake oil. We don’t know because it’s kept secret.


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## laurikoivisto (Jun 18, 2018)

If EIS were snake oil, then i would assume even one unhappy student would be on this forum telling about it. I didn't find any and given that EIS has been taught for decades and this forums been up for almost 15 years, i think thats pretty good!


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 18, 2018)

douggibson said:


> I've EARNED the right to do that buddy.
> 
> I don't care what you do.


Apparently you do care since you went on and on criticizing me about it.


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## Dewdman42 (Jun 18, 2018)

15 years and still their lips are sealed about how it works !! Hahah


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## MatFluor (Jun 18, 2018)

Doug perfectly explained the gist of it.

I get all the stuff like that there should be another way to access the material. But the discussion has a wrong ground - it's Spuds IP, and he wished that EIS is taught the way it is now. We all respect that. I relate it to the vocal training I had. Yes, we worked with a damn expensive book - but that was only the basis. The real vocal training were drills, explanations and a teacher who got to know my strengths and weaknesses. If I only had the books, my singing wouldn't have improved at all - or only marginally. Even though all I need to know is in the books - with photos and drawings and all. But the guidance and experience of the teacher is what made a difference. And yes, we even worked with a book that is not openly available.

Since EIS uses another terminology, it wouldn't make sense to explain it - some things are extremely complex to rephrase in a classical theory way, so that other musicians understand it. If I were to explain a piece I made with EIS, I would have to try to explain what I did in non-EIS terms, which can be very difficult, and since my University degree is not in Music, it could prove impossible.

It's fair to ask, it's great that you have interest, but it's not fair to demand free availability against Spuds wishes.

Most teachers are happy to have a Skype session and explain some stuff, and you can ask some questions.


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## laurikoivisto (Jun 18, 2018)

Yeah, you could've had this conversation over skype


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## Wake (Jun 19, 2018)

OK douggibson just hit it out of the ballpark with his attempt at explaining the core of the system.
I think it's the best attempt from what I could find browsing this subforum.

Nobody really needs more than this. Just ignore the bittersweet elitist jabbing and success statistics.
Go instead with the transcribing advice - always pays off - if you're still on the fence about the EIS
world. The books themselves are based on grinding through automatized processes, again I have
the first 2 and can verify the actual text is minimal, the method is conceived to show itself through
work, and is not written out in words, apart from warnings, advice and assignments.

Actually reminds a lot of Mick Goodrick's excellent books on voice-leading with the cheeky goading
of the student to apply themselves and put in the work.


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## pcartwright (Jun 19, 2018)

Thank you for sharing!


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## Joe K (Mar 5, 2019)

This program is really very expensive. 

I have completed the first 2 books and enjoyed them but honestly I can't afford paying 110$ for a teacher to read the lesson over Skype. Honestly we did nothing during the session than reading and I was understanding everything by myself. I did all homework without any mistake. All information is very clear and explained why do you insist on those private mentoring just for reading few pages?

This is my very honest opinion on EIS and unfortunately I can't go any further with it unless you find a more modern/affordable way of teaching this program, and I am sure many people are wishing the same, and I am also sure you can find a better approach to do so.


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## MatFluor (Mar 5, 2019)

Joe K said:


> This program is really very expensive.
> 
> I have completed the first 2 books and enjoyed them but honestly I can't afford paying 110$ for a teacher to read the lesson over Skype. Honestly we did nothing during the session than reading and I was understanding everything by myself. I did all homework without any mistake. All information is very clear and explained why do you insist on those private mentoring just for reading few pages?
> 
> This is my very honest opinion on EIS and unfortunately I can't go any further with it unless you find a more modern/affordable way of teaching this program, and I am sure many people are wishing the same, and I am also sure you can find a better approach to do so.



Sad to hear. In my personal case the Skype session is there to answer question, talk about examples and applications and much more. Did you talk with your teacher about that? Or rather, what else did you do in the allotted time? I find the current approach to be extremely beneficial for myself.
The value isn't in the books per session, but in these sessions where you would reflect upon those pages, talk about them etc etc.


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## FriFlo (Mar 5, 2019)

The thing with EIS is, it doesn't seem like a total fraud. But it is a typical attempt to make something deliberately elitist by making it expensive. The same thing sometimes works with other stuff, like cloths. Make them fucking expensive and some people will freak out over it! They will interpret the exclusivity in a way that the item is the most desirable thing on the planet. We are just wired to desire what we cannot have - nothing new here!  the same worked with sample libraries until there were so many sales that most people got 10 string libraries these days ...
I am sure, there's something to learn from this course! But the truth is: take lessons with any good composer with deep theoretical knowledge and a good concept of teaching: you will get a lot out of it! No EIS needed!  He will inspire you to write, make you see things differently, all of that!
A theory book is another matter. It is much harder for a book to be as convincing. But there are still good books, which is why I find it regrettable, that these are not available for evaluation. Hell, I am sure other books would be way more effective, if you could only buy them with hundreds of private lessons! :-D So, please stop telling us, these books can only be taught from person to person! Exactly these "messages that can only be grasped by the inner circle" are exactly what makes this look like a cult or a bit like a con act, too! Of course, when there is a book, some people will have it harder than others learning from it. But no book is unlearnable by reading! That is just ridiculous.
Finally, I have another general observation about music theory in general. I like these attempts to grasp certain things and at times some composers surely have been inspired to write certain things by theoretical thoughts! But, on the other hand, no theory really nails anything! I have learned dozens of them and some have a strong believe and are convincing, yet fail to explain a lot of what is going on in music. Others (and I think EIS is one of those) give you lots of options and seem to suggest, that everything is possible, while having no vision of what is actually good. I may be wrong, but to me it very much looks like Thomas Chase Jones MIT is kind of his spin off course after learning EIS first. All the theoretical base ideas seem very similar. I suppose, he also learned the concept of selling expensive one-on-one sessions there! 
So, supposing I am right, I did not learn MIT myself, but a friend of mine who is very knowledable about music theory took a class. He told me, yeah! You can definitely write music like that! But, there are so many other ways to look at it, too! And what you learn this way is only a stupid description of some interval combination. It is totally lacking anything that makes other music theory worth while! There is no historical reasoning, to why things developed! Of course, you can write music like a puzzle of pieces, looking at combinations that look as odd as possible to you! But that is not how anything inspired is written. It is not more than a possible starting point for you, when there is no inspiration! I don't want to condemn construction of music! It certainly is a big part of composition! But made by some theory without any kind of historical embedding, it seems like a hollow attempt to me.
There is lots of theory available and getting a good teacher is always a good idea, of course! But the most you can learn by studying scores. Of course, one or the other theory is helpful to understand those master pieces (Mike Verta is dead wrong about that!), but written music by the greats is always way more important than any theory can be. Simply for that reason, I wouldn't bet my money on an offering like EIS. It seems like the Scientology of music theory. Well, probably the consequences will not be as devastating for its followers!


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## robh (Mar 5, 2019)

Joe K said:


> This program is really very expensive.
> 
> I have completed the first 2 books and enjoyed them but honestly I can't afford paying 110$ for a teacher to read the lesson over Skype. Honestly we did nothing during the session than reading and I was understanding everything by myself. I did all homework without any mistake. All information is very clear and explained why do you insist on those private mentoring just for reading few pages?
> 
> This is my very honest opinion on EIS and unfortunately I can't go any further with it unless you find a more modern/affordable way of teaching this program, and I am sure many people are wishing the same, and I am also sure you can find a better approach to do so.


I totally get what you mean. I stopped after book 8 for personal reasons, but after the first two books, I was wondering the same thing. However, having done the other six books, I saw why it was so valuable to start with that 2-book foundation and make sure you get it, and not just get it, but that it's been drilled into you. I know that if I were given the books to study on my own, I would have, in my typical impatience, skipped too much ("yeah, yeah, I get it.") and would have got lost further in. For me, it has been good investment.

Rob


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## d.healey (Mar 5, 2019)

robh said:


> I know that if I were given the books to study on my own, I would have, in my typical impatience, skipped too much ("yeah, yeah, I get it.") and would have got lost further in.


And you should be free to do so. I think one on one teaching is always a good option for any subject, but I don't think it should ever be the only option.


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## Chris Richter (Mar 5, 2019)

What should and shouldn't be free to do (for me) is up to the author. I personally get tremendous value out of those personal lessons and I totally respect the way it is tought.
That said it's not for everyone and feel free to go with traditional theory. Whatever helps you get to where you want to be. Take any teacher you want as @FriFlo suggests or none at all.

Studying scores is super cool and super helpful. And I totally agree that some theory helps with understanding whats going on. In my paricular case EIS helps me doing that. But so would traditional harmony. Those are different tools for the job. Grab the one you can do the job with the best.

I don't get the knock on Verta, as he isn't against theory imo. As I understand him he just doesn't think it comes first and foremost. He always says it's a language and kids learn it by repeating their parents (read: transcribing). No kid ever starts with grammar (music theory) until they can already speak.
But thats just one opinion of one guy. If it resonates with you, cool, go with it. If not, don't. I enjoy him and his lessons. But I totally get why one might not.

That "stupid description of some interval combination" @FriFlo mentions indeed is the core of EIS. Calling it "stupid" is a judgement that lacks fundamental understanding of the system. It's based on the overtone series, which can't be avoided. It's physics. Calling that stupid is calling the way sound works stupid and that serves no purpose.

To get anything out of EIS you have to be open minded as it_ is_ different than traditional theory. If you already think you know everything why try it in the first place?

So, whatever grows you as a composer, do that! If it's traditional theory, great! If It's EIS, cool. But first and foremost write and get those notes on paper.


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## FriFlo (Mar 6, 2019)

You misrepresent me a little:
There is no "Knock on Verta", I merely disagree with his bashing of music theory.
I did not call interval combinations stupid, I mean that in the sense that a purely descriptive process of describing possible interval combinations on its own lacks any meaning and that is what I describe as "hollow theories" - those theories you cannot say anything against, but on the other hand, they purely describe some possibilities ... I obviously cannot say, if EIS is like that, as I don't wann pay that kind of money. But ... as I said: I think MIT is derived from EIS, so, if this is true, I have a pretty accurate picture of what it is about ...
I will gladly tell you what I mean: functional theory attributes a lot of purpose meaning to chords. A tonic is your "home", while the dominant enforces the "urge to get home". All of the functional theory is built around these assumptions. Well, that it is at the same time the strength and the weakness of functional theory. It works very well to induce meaning into music, but at the same time, it does neglect a whole lot of music that does not work like that at all! I would not call that theory stupid, as it intelligently describes one way of looking at chord progressions. But you better don't get stuck with this theory alone, as it will quickly narrow your horizon!
What I heard of MIT (which is probably ripped off from EIS) suggests, that it does show you certain models how to build chord progressions (diatonic or non-diatonic) based on the full vocabulary of chords available. Every chord is of course dependent on the overtone series, but that doesn't tell me anything of value.
Composition is an art form that has historically developed from learning from the old masters up to the modern composers. Schönberg told his students all about Bach, before finally teaching them his 12-tone theory. My sense of a good modern music theory is that it looks at different composers from all ages individually, teaching some theory, but always pointing out that theory has its limits - that actual works are the true guides! A mix of knowledge of counter point and harmony of course helps understanding, but it is only a basis!
Looking at some of the MIT sample classes (here, you can at least check out what it is about for free!), I don't get the impression, that the student gets any sense of the historical development of the not combinations being used. He is merely picking and choosing his puzzle pieces from a collection of possibilities, completely unaware of any intentions. I am not saying that cannot help at certain times, otherwise I would not be interested in buying a book about it! But I call it stupid in a certain sense. It seems totally unaware of historical setting and style. A theory, that claims to be a theory of everything has always failed in history! That is true for physics, but IMO it is also true for music theory. That is why I think this is an overrated theory, that might be helpful to see certain aspects, as most theories are, but it is trying to cloud itself in mystery and only reveals its wisdom to those who pay dearly and that is a bad sign, if you ask me ...


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## mikeh-375 (Mar 6, 2019)

I don't know about EIS as I don't need to, having been schooled academically and even more so using my own wits, I have mastered more than enough to create according to any whim I may have. What examples I've heard sound good though.
However, it's just another system, what really, really matters is how you apply the system to your proclivities and aesthetics. Nobody seems to mention a key aspect regarding technique - namely invention. When a system/technique is assimilated, that should be the beginning of the journey for as one starts to use it in writing, if the principles are understood, you can then manipulate the strictures to suit your personal preferences and to suit any material found.

Learning theory is one thing, learning to apply it in your work as technique in such a way that it supports and helps your expression, aids your fluency and helps you create from nothing more readily, is another aspect that one needs to incorporate. Ironically this can be achieved by almost dis-regarding what has been learnt and re-imagining the underlying principles in a more personal way..._inventing_ your own parameters and music according to what you feel. The rules are there to be broken, but must be learnt first. If EIS is giving some discipline to composers, I'm all for it, because they'll eventually have fun rubbing hard against the rules if they have the imagination - there's a lot of good music to be found on the borders.

Sorry if this is too much of a digression....


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## Chris Richter (Mar 6, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> I did not call interval combinations stupid



I never said you did. I quoted you directly. For comparison:


CQrity said:


> That "stupid description of some interval combination" @FriFlo mentions indeed is the core of EIS.





FriFlo said:


> And what you learn this way is only a stupid description of some interval combination.


And from your last answer:


FriFlo said:


> But I call it stupid in a certain sense.





There are a lot of assumptions in your post.
I agree, that composition doesn't work in isolation. The composer has to meet the audience, take them by the hand and then lead them to new places. EIS doesn't free the composer of human psychology. I don't know how you got to the conclusion that EIS won't take humans habits into consideration. And I also don't know how you come to the conclusion that EIS is unintentional.

I agree, that theory has it's limits. That's true for everything. In theory bumblebees shouldn't be able to fly. Guess what: they do.
EIS can also look the same way at those traditional composers as traditional harmony can. Again I don't know why you think it can't.

And this one statement is especially important, so I will quote again here:


FriFlo said:


> Looking at some of the MIT sample classes (here, you can at least check out what it is about for free!), I don't get the impression, that the student gets any sense of the historical development of the not combinations being used.


You perfectly summed up why
a) there are no sample classes for EIS (lots of assumptions about what is and is not)
b) why a book alone might not be enough to study the matter (it doesn't transport all aspects as well as a teacher; you _might_ be able to do this in book form but Lyle Murphy decided that he wants to do it differently)
c) why it's trained in 1 on 1 lessons (to pass the experiences of the teacher and give context; not just historically but also with current trends - a book about that will be out of date in a few years; in addition a book can't react to questions or pick the student up at his individual level).

EIS is not a half assed thing. It's all in. You won't skip lessons or assignments, like you could in a book. Ofcourse you can drop out any time you want. But you do it the way it's intended or you don't do it at all.

So I invite you to stop assuming further and just ping one of the teachers and ask them for an interview. They will gladly speak with you about what EIS is and what it isn't (it's free, wohoo!). If you don't want to, that's perfectly fine. I totally respect your point of view and I totally can see where you are coming from. But then please stop assuming and _move on._
Live and let live


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## stonzthro (Mar 6, 2019)

c) Is a stretch. As complex as EIS is, it can be communicated through writ or video.

Let's at least be honest: this is how one protects a trade secret, as methodology cannot be protected legally (at least not in the US). Limit dispersion and maintain control through the guise of mass incommunicability.

That said - I'm glad there are people who think differently about music - possibly some day they will use that thinking to broaden all our horizons.


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## FriFlo (Mar 6, 2019)

CQrity said:


> So I invite you to stop assuming further and just ping one of the teachers and ask them for an interview. They will gladly speak with you about what EIS is and what it isn't (it's free, wohoo!). If you don't want to, that's perfectly fine. I totally respect your point of view and I totally can see where you are coming from. But then please stop assuming and _move on._
> Live and let live


I totally let others appreciate the hell out of it!  I just reserve myself the right to be suspicious about the marketing strategy. If this theory was available for evaluation as a book, I would check it out. The way it is presently offered, however, I cannot do that without spending serious money. One Skype session with an instructor could not clear up, if that theory is valuable or not - sorry! It might intrigue me, but it cannot be more than a teaser ...
So, if you wanna say what you think is great about it, please go ahead! I won't stop you. But please honor what you yourself said and don't try to diminish my skeptical remarks, either.


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## wst3 (Mar 6, 2019)

I do not mean to put down anyone's perspective, but there is one key concept I really don't understand... why is it that we think we can dictate to others how they should conduct their business? It happens all the time, in this case the target is an program to train composers, and the originator had specific "rules" and his estate has elected to respect those rules. It really is - to me - that simple.

Can I speculate that they might sell 5 million copies if they relaxed the rules? Sure, I can speculate pretty much anything.

Can I wish I could read the book first before signing up? Sure! In fact that might influence me. (Conversations with one of the instructors has provided me with enough information to (a) know I'd like to study EIS, and (b) my life is simply not set up to do so at the moment. All that without seeing the book. But I digress)

It crosses the line - again to me - when it goes from speculation to "I want them to do business thusly and I will complain until they bend to my will".

In fact I think the handful of EIS graduates and teachers who have contributed here have shown some real class, to which I say thanks!

I may not have contributed materially to the thread, FriFLo's last comment is spot on - EIS folks should respect skepticism, and the skeptics should respect the wishes of Mr. Murphy's estate.

(Frankly I do think they could make a lot more money selling the books - so perhaps it is not pure greed that drives them?)


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 6, 2019)

Nobody is "dictating" anything, but we are certainly free to "criticize" as much as we like and refrain from purchasing it.


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## MatFluor (Mar 6, 2019)

Skepticism is healthy, and should be done of course!

It is unfortunate though that some criticism comes from wrong comparisons. And also - EIS is not for everybody. For me, it was the best musical decision to date, others might feel differently. It's not Snake-oil like advertising "Look at this free lesson, it will change your life! We can even change your life, wife, and dog by giving us cash!". It's a different view of music and the way things work. And for me, personally, it's all I need to grow as a composer. And I grew immensely. Would I have grown without it? I guess - but I walked this path instead  But that's me telling you that Cheese fondue is the best dish ever created (I'm so swiss it hurts sometimes) - it's true for me, but isn't a universal truth. Also, you don't get my personal recipe, I keep that to myself 

I respect other opinions, but I don't like when it starts to go into a non-factual territory and the only points made are based on assumptions from a different course. That comes off as e.g. critiquing Austria because you know somebody who has been to Germany - and both countries essentially speak German, right? (and in this case, at some point were one country even). Yes, my analogies are hit-and-miss, sorry.

So, be a skeptic, raise questions by all means - but also respect the decision of Spud how EIS is taught, there are also reasons for that of course, and same goes vice versa, we respect the criticism. As long as an open and honest discussion takes places without people from both sides start to throw stuff around. But as said, it's problematic to criticize something only based on assumptions. You can discuss the business practices, but not the content (due to its business practice). It's like you want to discuss Google's search algorithm. You cannot criticize it, you don't know how it works, you can't see it's source code. You can be skeptic towards it, and say that you think it's biased toward paid content - or whatever. But you can't criticize the algorithm, because that's not public - and Googler can't discuss it with you either because it's not public. So - we're in a mexican stand-off.

Ok, I'll stop now with bad analogies. You get my points - Both sides accept skepticism, we hug each other over a beer and do what we love - compose good music. With whatever education we have - that's what matters. Only thing I can say, for me, EIS is not a scam at all. Would I think differently if I had thorough Classical and Jazz education from a university? Don't know - I'm not a composition student, never was - I studied other things (if that was the right decision - that's for another time)...


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 6, 2019)

At this point in time we are unable to be fact based skeptics about the materials because it is not available to us unless we pay big cash money. So you can say all you want about how lovely it has been for you, and we can take that for your word, but it means absolutely zilch to the rest of us because the information you are vouching for is simply not available to us unless we want to pay for it first. That is the only thing people are criticizing about. If anyone calls it snake oil without having studied it first...well...that is ignorant... obviously...based on a hunch. But I really haven't heard anyone say that here, not really. But I think if you look at what people are writing, they are simply saying they don't want to pay so much for unknown information, regardless of the amount of vouching for it that people like you have done. 

I do think EIS would take off and do a lot better....both monetarily for Spud's posterity, as well as for the pure sake of propagating EIS out into the world of intellectual wisdom...if the nuts and bolts of it were not shrouded in mystery. It will never gain any intellectual respect until they remove that vail and allow all to check it out, talk about it, criticize or praise. There will always be ample opportunity for teachers of the craft to find pupils, there is no reason to keep the information private and protected other then purely monetary. This is the main criticism that EIS has gotten and will continue to get over and over again.


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 6, 2019)

Yea cmon' doug, that's a stretch. Listening to his music does not explain his theory. And yes that information has in fact been kept secret. I do not think its because of a "cult" mentality, I think its for monetary reasons only. The excuses given that it can only be explained by a teacher are hogwash. Put it out there and let us try! Maybe we'll sign up for lessons after we find out how badly we need lessons.

You cannot find any materials of any kind on EIS theory. That information is definitely held very close to their chests. For whatever reason they choose to do that, the rest of us are left in the dark unless we want to pay for private lessons. Its as simple as that. And hey, if they want to ensure employment that way, I don't even think its unethical or anything of that sort, but just recognize it for what it is. Those of you using it will continue to claim it has made mozarts out of you, and the rest of us will shrug and say "ok if you say so". The system will never be regarded at large in any capacity until independent minds can objectively study it and critique it. That will not happen as long as the information is inside a closed box with the only entry being private lessons.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 6, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> I think its for monetary reasons only.



Misperception. Seriously, why do you keep saying that? More importantly, why do you say "we" - as if everyone agrees with you?

I had the books for a while (I was going to study EIS but never did). There are probably some things you can figure out from the books, but this is not a self-study course - and I'm not a beginner.

It is a proprietary system, and they don't give it away - nor are they under any obligation to do so. But that doesn't mean it's for monetary reasons only.


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## laurikoivisto (Mar 6, 2019)

It's absurd to think that any school would have to make their teaching material available for purchase. Just because they're called books doesn't mean they have to be on Amazon.

Every school costs (except here in Finland lol) and what makes a school better than others is how they teach things. 

EIS is not black magic. It's just a different way of thinking music.


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## vgamer1982 (Mar 6, 2019)

Can anybody name a culturally significant piece of music written using this "system"?

Never seen an answer to that question, which means there probably isn't one.


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 6, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I had the books for a while (I was going to study EIS but never did). There are probably some things you can figure out from the books, but this is not a self-study course - and I'm not a beginner.



Then write a real book! I will be one of the first to buy it.


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## MatFluor (Mar 6, 2019)

vgamer1982 said:


> Can anybody name a culturally significant piece of music written using this "system"?
> 
> Never seen an answer to that question, which means there probably isn't one.



I don't know what you count as culturally significant.
Series like Samurai Jack, Films like Scary Movie 3-5? Reality TV series? Jazz Albums? All stuff that EIS students and graduates have written.

But the question really is what you deem as culturally significant.

And to make it clear, it's not a system that makes you sound the same always (the examples are proof enough I think).


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## vgamer1982 (Mar 6, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I had the books for a while (I was going to study EIS but never did). There are probably some things you can figure out from the books, but this is not a self-study course - and I'm not a beginner.



I self-studied total serialism, permuted set classes, combinatoriality and cross-partitioning techniques, so I'd suggest that for myself and many people that's bull. "it's not able to be self-studied" as an excuse for making big claims for a musical idea and then not explaining them in the public domain is a bizarre appeal to the supposed ignorance or assumed capabilities of others.....


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## vgamer1982 (Mar 6, 2019)

MatFluor said:


> I don't know what you count as culturally significant.
> Series like Samurai Jack, Films like Scary Movie 3-5? Reality TV series? Jazz Albums? All stuff that EIS students and graduates have written.



That would be a no, then. None of those things have music that is considered technically significant by really, almost anybody. They may have perfectly nice pieces of music but let's get real.


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## vgamer1982 (Mar 6, 2019)

I don't remember anybody noting Scary Movie 5 for its use of harmonic technique.......I'm sure the music is fine, but really, if that's how low the bar is set....


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## vgamer1982 (Mar 6, 2019)

ps reality tv? That hot bed of quality musical innovation? I must be watching the wrong shows


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## MatFluor (Mar 6, 2019)

vgamer1982 said:


> That would be a no, then. None of those things have music that is considered technically significant by really, almost anybody. They may have perfectly nice pieces of music but let's get real.



Then, really out of curiosity, what do you mean by cultutral significance and technical significance? I just picked some random stuff.


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 6, 2019)

though I do have to say that I have the Schillinger books...and... never was ever to make any sense out of them personally... Well I haven't tried that hard I guess. I guess I would have needed to be mentored by Schillinger or Gershwin or someone that actually got private lessons on it..the books were simply never really written very well...they were more like notes that his posterity put together into a book eventually. Sound familiar? His ideas did eventually seep into Berklee and maybe other places from there... Maybe Spud's ideas will too eventually. For now, its private lesson food.


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## vgamer1982 (Mar 6, 2019)

MatFluor said:


> Then, really out of curiosity, what do you mean by cultutral significance and technical significance? I just picked some random stuff.



Well, if you want to claim a significant advance in harmonic technique, you're up against all the things I mentioned of recent years. Even Schoenberg's Harmonielehre yielded both eponymous and other works inspired by it. Harmonically significant pieces of music? Depends on so much....I mean few would argue the technical relevance of Rite of Spring, Gruppen, Akhnaten, Moses Und Aron, Powder Her Face, Tristan, Density 21.5, and so on and so forth...just to flit around 19th and 20th century orchestral music


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## vgamer1982 (Mar 6, 2019)

Nobody's writing PhD theses on the harmonic structure of The Real Housewives of Whatever Town We're Doing Now


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## vgamer1982 (Mar 6, 2019)

Nor are any of the few examples of the "system" especially impressive or even that harmonically coherent, nor is it any way apparent what the system even is from the music. You could reverse engineer the tone-rows in Marteau Sans Maitre, for example. You might not like the music, but it's a masterpiece of architecture.


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## vgamer1982 (Mar 6, 2019)

That's not to say they're bad bits of music.......but only is said in the context of analyzing the claims of a System with Many Capitals in the Description, and even an acronym (EIS)...which clearly is in the goal of trying to make it sound like an Authoritative course that can only be Taught by Teachers etc. etc. etc.

That there is a supposed technique leading to someone writing great music that is proprietary and secret and can only be taught by specific teachers, none of whom are of particularly enormous stature...taught in paid lessons and cannot supposedly be self-studied......is an extraordinary claim requiring of extraordinary evidence that is entirely lacking. Hence the question of "what significant piece of music exists in the world that wouldn't exist without this?". Yes, it's fuzzy what significant is, but I don't think anything proposed here or anywhere else for this "system" meets any reasonable definition of "significant" at all.

Maybe it's a huge revolution in harmony but....there's zero evidence of that.


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## MatFluor (Mar 6, 2019)

Ah alright. I don't know the works of Students or graduates enough in the academic area, so I can't help you there (or it would take me too long to look all the names up).

Well, as said, it's not a system that dictates you how to write (like tone rows or Fugues are). It's not meant to be that - it's also not made to wow any academics. And yes, it is not "apparent in any way what the system is" - because it doesn't dictate you any styles you have to write and no "signature moves".

If you define validity by the ability to write a PhD thesis about it, that's your criteria. If you are looking for that, go put your money into a proper University that is focused on that. EIS probably isn't for you then. It's about writing music, if you walk new harmonic grounds and get to be the new academic in-guy, that's totally up to you. Can EIS help? Yes. Can a top-notch conservatory help? Yes. Can musictheory.net help? Yes.


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## vgamer1982 (Mar 6, 2019)

Validity can be defined many ways depending on circumstance. The problem is none of that matches up with the claims being made about it. I mean it even has a long overblown name "System of Horizontal Composition Based on Equal Intervals". So what you're saying doesn't match up with what it's apparently claiming.

And it's a colossal and commonplace misnomer that fugues or tone rows _dictate_ how you write - fugues fundamentally work because they play on expectations, tension and release, for example, but because people study them in a parrot fashion way they think writing a fugue is restrictive - it's not. It never was. Nor harmony. Bach wasn't doing technical exercises. Counterpoint arose and developed, and the various rules are actually practicalities - we avoid parallel fifths within Bach chorale style harmonization not because of any "rule" but because fifths interact in a different way in terms of balance of line to other intervals due to the nature of the harmonic series....so parallel fifths sound weak unless done consistently as in organum/conductus. It was referred to as "motion of perfect consonances" because it was recognized as sounding intrinsically different to the balance of other intervals. That was first recognized well over 600 years ago.


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## Jdiggity1 (Mar 6, 2019)

Thank you @MatFluor and other EIS students/teachers for the time you're putting into responses here.
Not only for shedding even just a tiny bit of light on the 'mystery' that is EIS, but for giving other members the opportunity to vent their grumbles that they clearly and sorely need.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 7, 2019)

vgamer1982 said:


> I self-studied total serialism, permuted set classes, combinatoriality and cross-partitioning techniques, so I'd suggest that for myself and many people that's bull. "it's not able to be self-studied" as an excuse for making big claims for a musical idea and then not explaining them in the public domain is a bizarre appeal to the supposed ignorance or assumed capabilities of others.....



It sounds like you're far too intelligent for the course anyway.


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## Farkle (Mar 7, 2019)

vgamer1982 said:


> I self-studied total serialism, permuted set classes, combinatoriality and cross-partitioning techniques, so I'd suggest that for myself and many people that's bull. "it's not able to be self-studied" as an excuse for making big claims for a musical idea and then not explaining them in the public domain is a bizarre appeal to the supposed ignorance or assumed capabilities of others.....



From the list of techniques above, it sounds like you have more than enough ammunition/vocabulary to write music for years, which is great! For you, EIS might be unnecessary.

At the end of the day, I think that all of these various systems (EIS, Schillinger, Schoenberg, Hindemith, Mark Levine's Jazz Theory) are codified methods to help composers either write better and faster, or understand how others wrote. Whatever system works for each individual, and helps them write better or faster; I think *that's* the right system for them.

For me and for others, EIS is the system that keeps writing fresh for me, keeps it fun, and allows me to grow as a composer. For others, it's Hindemith's Craft of Musical Composition. For others, Jazz Theory (I'm partial to Mark Levine's texts on it).

In my opinion, as long as the system(s) you are studying and using help make your composing faster, more fun, and more successful, then that's a win in my book.

Mike


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## FriFlo (Mar 7, 2019)

I think vgamer 1981 made some good points. It is of course a factor, that you can nowadays download a copy of Schönbergs Harmonierlehre for free and know , how many culturally important composers have studied from it. On the other hand, I would consider some Jazz musicians culturally just as important, so one point for Spud as well! 
But I really don't want to continue criticising here. I suppose the herd mentality of all the students here trying to defend it pushed me towards that.
But - just out of curiosity - have one question to you and I would love to get an honest answer on it:
I wrote about it earlier ... TC Jones offers his MIT (musical interval theory). As I said, I know one or two things more about it, as a friend of mine took his week-long seminar on the whole thing at The Hollywood Workshop in Vienna. From what I read and what he told me and the little things I know about EIS, it seems, he has adopted the same EIS principles, changed some things and now offers them has his own theory. Is that true?


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## Farkle (Mar 7, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> I think vgamer 1981 made some good points. It is of course a factor, that you can nowadays download a copy of Schönbergs Harmonierlehre for free and know , how many culturally important composers have studied from it. On the other hand, I would consider some Jazz musicians culturally just as important, so one point for Spud as well!
> But I really don't want to continue criticising here. I suppose the herd mentality of all the students here trying to defend it pushed me towards that.
> But - just out of curiosity - have one question to you and I would love to get an honest answer on it:
> I wrote about it earlier ... TC Jones offers his MIT (musical interval theory). As I said, I know one or two things more about it, as a friend of mine took his week-long seminar on the whole thing at The Hollywood Workshop in Vienna. From what I read and what he told me and the little things I know about EIS, it seems, he has adopted the same EIS principles, changed some things and now offers them has his own theory. Is that true?



Personally, I have no idea. I know nothing about the MITA course. *HOWEVER*, one of the founders (Frank/Blackster) directly said in a post (link below) that MITA was in no way related to EIS. Here's the quote from the thread:

"Let me chime in as people don't really seem to know what MITA is! MITA is a complete course on its own that is not related to the other course in any case! Yes, my co-founder and myself are graduates of the other course but your statement about "the full fledged thing" is not true. You've admitted that you don't know what MITA is about, yet you do a comparison. And MITA offers 1-on-1 teaching, that's the only option how to learn MITA right now. "

And the thread link below.

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/best-online-courses-for-composing.64195/page-2#post-4184358

So, Friflo, I can't answer to it, but according to one of the founders, MITA is in no way related to EIS. Please correct me if I misread that thread.

Mike


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## FriFlo (Mar 7, 2019)

Farkle said:


> Personally, I have no idea. I know nothing about the MITA course. *HOWEVER*, one of the founders (Frank/Blackster) directly said in a post (link below) that MITA was in no way related to EIS. Here's the quote from the thread:
> 
> "Let me chime in as people don't really seem to know what MITA is! MITA is a complete course on its own that is not related to the other course in any case! Yes, my co-founder and myself are graduates of the other course but your statement about "the full fledged thing" is not true. You've admitted that you don't know what MITA is about, yet you do a comparison. And MITA offers 1-on-1 teaching, that's the only option how to learn MITA right now. "
> 
> ...


 Thanks for pointing out that post to me! Sometimes, the answer is somewhere hidden within the answer, you just have to find it ... 
Ok, so, MIT is pretty much an interpretation of EIS by a student.


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## FriFlo (Mar 7, 2019)

And that is goodnight know,mas, if somebody was interested in EiS and wanted to check it out, he could take the much cheaper monthly membership from MITA to check out some of the basics. It is probably not the same, but I am sure it is very similar!


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## MatFluor (Mar 7, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> Thanks for pointing out that post to me! Sometimes, the answer is somewhere hidden within the answer, you just have to find it ...
> Ok, so, MIT is pretty much an interpretation of EIS by a student.



Interesting how you go from "MITA is a complete course on its own that is not related to the other course in any case" to "It's an interpretation by a student"
Maybe @Blackster himself would chime in.


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## FriFlo (Mar 7, 2019)

MatFluor said:


> Interesting how you go from "MITA is a complete course on its own that is not related to the other course in any case" to "It's an interpretation by a student"
> Maybe @Blackster himself would chime in.


So, I am not allowed to draw my own conclusions from the information given? Of course, they have to say it is their own thing! Because, legally, you can use teaching methods by someone else you learned from. But that doesn't mean, you can copy the exact script and give it the identical name! That would have legal consequences in most countries, I believe.
There are just to many coincidences here ... two students from EIS found their own teaching class ... look at the sample lessons ... listen to the composition exercises. You can believe what you want, but I am pretty certain that this is at least heavily inspired by EIS - in this case I don't care what the MITA guys say.


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## Farkle (Mar 7, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> Thanks for pointing out that post to me! Sometimes, the answer is somewhere hidden within the answer, you just have to find it ...
> Ok, so, MIT is pretty much an interpretation of EIS by a student.



Let me be clear. That is you who said that, FriFlo. I do not know or understand where you got that conclusion, and I certainly did not say anything to that nature.

In fact, why not contact Frank (Blackster) and inquire with him? Here you have an EIS grad, and the founder of the MITA course, he would definitely be qualified to answer your suppositions.

I'm also now a bit confused; what is your purpose of these questions now? is it to find out if MITA is EIS in some way? is it to complain that EIS is secret? I'm not even sure what you're discussing.


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## Farkle (Mar 7, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> So, I am note allowed to draw my own conclusions from the information given?


Sure you are. Let me rephrase your statement,

"Okay, then, so IN MY OPINION, MITA is pretty much an interpretation of EIS by a student."

Would that be a more fair representation of your post? Or is your post factual, as in, you *know* that MITA is an interpretation of EIS by a student?

Because right now, the founder of MITA and EIS grad said there's nothing in common between the two courses, and you basically said, "wrong, Blackster, they are in fact highly related."

Since you are contradicting one of the founders, I'd be interested to hear your logic/proof of that.

I do not know one way or the other, and am very careful to state that explicitly. I'm not qualified or knowledgeable to discuss EIS versus MITA.

Mike


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## Farkle (Mar 7, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> So, I am not allowed to draw my own conclusions from the information given? Of course, they have to say it is their own thing! Because, legally, you can use teaching methods by someone else you learned from. But that doesn't mean, you can copy the exact script and give it the identical name! That would have legal consequences in most countries, I believe.
> There are just to many coincidences here ... two students from EIS found their own teaching class ... look at the sample lessons ... listen to the composition exercises. You can believe what you want, but I am pretty certain that this is at least heavily inspired by EIS - in this case I don't care what the MITA guys say.



Understood. Thank you for your clarification, FriFlo. This answers my post above.

Mike


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## FriFlo (Mar 7, 2019)

I just wanted to find out how much there is in common, as good as possible. Why do you guys have a problem with that? I really don't get you!
Why I don't trust the words of the founder is also simple and not complicated to understand ... ask the founder of Pepsi Cola, if he was inspired by Coca Cola and imagine he would claim he invented that drink independently. Imagine, you don't have any prove for what is the truth in this case?! What would you believe to be more probable? You cannot be sure, you cannot prove it, but you can draw your own conclusion, right?


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## Aquatone (Mar 7, 2019)

Hi all,

I am one of the EIS teachers. I've had a quick read of the last couple of pages and I'd like to clear up a few things.

First, EIS has no marketing strategy. A few of us help Lilith, Lyle Murphy's daughter and owner of the course, as she preserves the course and continues how her father taught which is one on one. We are are making strides in evolving the course but everyone involved is a working musician on top of being a teacher. So, we are very slow moving. We do not advertise. Everything has been word of mouth and goes by merit of success however it is measured.

Second, we are all very accessible. Anyone can contact us through the website. We have Q&A sessions or "interviews" with any perspective serious student before they sign up for lessons. We usually do two, they are one on one with different teachers, and often run an hour. We don't get paid for this either. We attempt to answer every question we can before someones pay ANY money. So, we are not as secretive or monetarily greedy as has been imagined. We aren't subscription based, pay to play, or any other high pressure sales organization and we teachers are ultimately accountable. We just don't hand you these "secret" texts (guarded by unicorns on Mount Olympus) and collect money.

Third, Lyle Murphy designed the course for the "working musician" in mind. There are ways to look at that statement. Some could say the course is for someone established musically. Some would say it means the course is efficient so that one can maintain their career (whatever it may be) and still progress their abilities via the course. Others could say it's just a no nonsense approach to creating and understand music. All of these would be true.

Fourth - style, arranging, and orchestration. Lyle Murphy composed music in his style in his stylistic era. So, he sounds a lot like what we call "jazz"...obviously. BUT he was influenced and studied ALL music. He LOVED Stravinsky among others. The Equal Interval System course reflects this. One of his master strokes is that he teaches no style or references traditional repertoire. The course encourages your style and can be applied to any genre of music. On the subject of arranging, he was a great and "in demand" arranger in his day, Murphy often uses the model of his era but stresses that everything is a matter of form...whatever that form may be is the composers choosing but it has to be there. What could be more empowering! Finally, orchestration is a part of the course that is WAY deeper than that section appears to be. Best of all, on the surface, it's seems pretty basic and one can do a solid orchestration while working through it. Is it THE comprehensive final word on orchestration... NO... and there never will be one because throughout history composers are always looking for new sounds and instruments.

For anyone reading forums and suffering through threads like this about EIS, consider this: almost everyone who has really studied the course, and especially graduates, praise the course. Almost anyone who trashes the course knows nothing of the course. Teachers are a necessity as we often customize, prepare supplemental material, or do extra things to help a student understand because no two students are the same. That's why teachers are selected since, our goal is to maintain Lyle Murphy's standard. Teaching requires something more than just being a graduate and we are devoted to our students.

As a group, EIS has created a new website https://equalintervalsystem.com. We aren't pros at this sort of thing so be gentle and we will improve. Ha! But we are trying to be even more accessible. We have a blog and will be putting neat stuff in there which we will cross post on VI. There is info on the site that explains some things for anyone who wants to read it. One fun thing I would like to share is a video we just put together containing audio of Lyle "Spud" Murphy reading the Foreword of the course to his student James Venable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_L._Venable
Jim is a GREAT composer, EIS teacher, and person. He has composed the score for many movies and TV shows. It's a neat snapshot in time since it was Jim's first lesson captured on a cassette tape. Spud explains things pretty plainly here. We will post a transcript soon.

The video can be found here:


Finally, someone wrote "Can anybody name a culturally significant piece of music written using this "system"?" All I can say is I can't think of anything more culturally significant to me and my family than being able to compose and provide an income for my family as a composer and musician. I'm not going to get into a "my system is better than your system" discussion since it is just plain silly. I'm thankful for every opportunity that comes my way and for what I learned and continue to learn studying EIS...
...and I absolutely love to help and watch an EIS student grow as they study the course.

Thanks,
Matt


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## laurikoivisto (Mar 7, 2019)

Matt's post should be pinned or something so that it won't get buried in the thread


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## InLight-Tone (Mar 7, 2019)

I am intrigued for sure, but would not pay into this system without more info. I am sure it will help immensely in my Trailer music compositions...


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## wst3 (Mar 8, 2019)

InLight-Tone said:


> I am intrigued for sure, but would not pay into this system without more info. I am sure it will help immensely in my Trailer music compositions...



Here's the part that does seem to get lost in the noise... you can learn everything you want/need to learn about the course by contacting a teacher or two, or three. They really will answer your questions, and you can get as detailed as you like. As about the approach, how much time you should commit, whatever.

There is NO dearth of information, but it is distributed in a manner that seems to put people off. I know not why.


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 8, 2019)

When questions are asked about the theory on this site it is usually responded to with a suggestion to sign up for private lessons. I have had the interviews with eis instructors and they told me nothing about the theory, nor would I expect them to be able to explain it in an hour long phone call. I think many people have been clear what their turn off is, there is no economical way to learn about it. They are interested, but it’s cost prohibitive to learn when the only way is through private lessons at $100 per hour.

Also their estimation of how long it would take to work through the private lesson plan, it was represented as needing to be YEARS, on a weekly basis. The reason is because in addition to teaching the theory they working students step by step through composition studies, which is not a bad thing per say but it’s not what all people want or need just to learn the core eis theory


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## stonzthro (Mar 8, 2019)

You can buy books on quantum physics (one of the hardest topics for most humans to grasp) for $144 on amazon, but you can only learn Spud's method as it is distributed by his pupils. Hmm... Would I learn all there is to know about quantum physics by reading this collection? No. Would I gain a much better understanding of what it is? Most certainly!



I think the point here is that many of the students respect Spud's wishes to protect it and pass it on teacher to student; and to their credit they keep their word. One cannot legally protect a theory or method, so Spud was smart in that wish but let's stop saying it can't be taught any way but teacher to student; that is just silly.

Also, I respect that the teachers themselves spent a ton of money to get to where they are and would probably prefer to leverage that investment - makes sense.

Bottom line - things ain't gonna change, no matter how many times this topic is brought up.


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## Craig Sharmat (Mar 8, 2019)

I'm just getting around to this now, been busy, but it seems like the typical arguments and counter arguments we have seen for yrs have resurfaced, and as usual there are valid arguments on both sides. I have heard great writing by both graduates and students, and I've heard pieces I was not fond of by both. Having technical knowledge is not a certainty to writing even good music but it does allow for more possibilities and in a nutshell that is a large part of what this course offers. The price can be prohibitive to a person needing money, it was when I was a student. On the other hand as a teacher my time is better spent monetarily doing something else. I teach mostly for 2 reasons, I like to see students improve and the wealth of information in the course is so vast and useful it's great to go over it again, and again.


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## vgamer1982 (Mar 8, 2019)

douggibson said:


> You are running around in circles arguing with yourself.



Cool story.



douggibson said:


> EIS would not help in the slightest to understand any of the works you mentioned.



I hear lots about what it isn't, nothing about what it _is_. Nothing that makes any sense. I really don't see why you have such a problem with people pointing that obvious flaw out.



douggibson said:


> "Spud" Murphy was a jazz musician. He was an arranger for Benny Goodman and Tommy Dorsey.
> Andre Previn is on the album I posted.



Lots of appeals to authority...no content. No explanation. Just "give us money if you want to know what it is".



douggibson said:


> Oscar Peterson would be in my opinion his most famous student.
> The EIS piano book I have has a foreword by Herbie Hancock endorsing the book.



Cheap appeals to authority, usually one-offs. Any other musical theory I can analyze easily because they're rarely secrets.



douggibson said:


> "Spud" is much more like Sammy Nestico, or Russel Garcia than Stockhausen or Varèse.






douggibson said:


> His books would fit much more in a university jazz program than 20th century avant grade.



I thought the point was it was style-agnostic - now it's not?



douggibson said:


> But why write 10 posts about how it's not for you ?



It's not for me, apparently - but I'm a student of music theory. I seek out all forms of it. But if someone makes big claims - like lots do for EIS without any form of the usual kind of backup - why not discuss it? You seem awfully concerned that various people with decent grasps of music theory are asking questions in this forum.



douggibson said:


> Do you have a narcissistic personality disorder?
> 23 total posts to your profile, and 10 are on this ? Why not just move along ?



No. Do you have an issue with people who ask questions?

Why not answer the questions? Why doesn't someone just demonstrate some of what this magical theory is other than "you have to pay an instructor"?



douggibson said:


> Aren't you an adult that can use your own critical thinking skills to make a determination?



Critical thinking skills requires the input of information to be parsed. There isn't any about EIS in any meaningful form. Which makes it entirely unique in the field of music theory. Name another music theory that is similarly locked off. There aren't any.



douggibson said:


> Ok.... it's not for you. Why the grandstanding ?
> 
> If it's because of the marketing and not being able to see the contents first......well...... you are
> on the wrong web site full stop.



It's a forum about music composition discussion, how could it be the wrong forum? You're terribly worried about people asking questions.



douggibson said:


> How many sample libraries make big claims with their marketing ?



Lots. It's irritating there too. But they're easily tested since the actual product is on display. Not wild claims and mere abstractions. If I can't tell what about a piece of music made it influenced by EIS - which I can't, because nobody will say what it even is - how can we possibly judge?



douggibson said:


> It's very common to find sample libraries that cost from $500 to bundles up to $2000 all of which need to be bought first to get access to the materials.



Can you name another abstract musical theory or idea that has to be studied with an instructor and cannot even be imparted in its simplest form, apparently, online? I can evaluate results of a sample library. I cannot evaluate what aspects of the music created with this "system" are unique.



douggibson said:


> Do you jump up and down about that ?



Definitely. Especially libraries. I skipped the rest of the false equivalencies because they were absurd.[/QUOTE]


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## Craig Sharmat (Mar 8, 2019)

Vgamer,In the end it is about the music and you can decide whether you like what the students in the course do. Go to the website, that should be enough to stop worthless debate which is a waste of time. Also why don't you use your real name.... I appreciate when people come in here and try to take down the course, it always fails and it brings more attention to the course, something we would not do on our own...so thank you.

For those asking about MITA, it is run by 2 EIS graduates and there is some EIS in it but they have branched out and mostly do their own thing.


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## wst3 (Mar 9, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> When questions are asked about the theory on this site it is usually responded to with a suggestion to sign up for private lessons. I have had the interviews with eis instructors and they told me nothing about the theory, nor would I expect them to be able to explain it in an hour long phone call.



My experience was quite different. I don't wish to put any of the teachers on the spot, so no names! Two different teachers spent at least an hour each with me, on the phone, and while they aren't going to teach EIS in an hour (wouldn't that be lovely) I do believe I understand what it is I would learn, and what they expect of me in terms of time and money.

My life turned upside down a couple years ago, and it hasn't completely settled, and I'm not going to start something to which I can not commit. But I do believe I know enough to make an informed decision, and as I mentioned earlier, I will be studying EIS when time allows.


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## Dewdman42 (Mar 9, 2019)

Except what you just described is the same thing that I described, not “quite different”. You just described exactly the same thing.

Bottom line, if you want to learn EIS, the only way is through private lessons.


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## Craig Sharmat (Mar 9, 2019)

It is the only way. There might be some people who can learn EIS with just the course materials but for myself and almost everyone of the students I have had, at least initially they would have gone off course (pun intended) and wasted their time.


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## FriFlo (Mar 9, 2019)

Craig Sharmat said:


> For those asking about MITA, it is run by 2 EIS graduates and there is some EIS in it but they have branched out and mostly do their own thing.


Thanks you for the civil answere to my question, which others obviously consider a sacrilege to ask!
So, all I want is to give my final feedback, wether it interests you or not is of course entirely to you.
I will probably never study EIS in the form it is currently presented. The reason is quite simply that it seems to be less dependent on the method, by what I read, but rather a one on one teaching. I can see, that this is of course something with great potential benefits. However, it is entirely dependent on the individual teacher. From checking out the teachers, there seems to be quite a big gap in the abilitities between the individual composers listed as teachers (no names from me either, to keep it civil, but I can't leave that part out without being untruthful ...)! 
Apart from that, 100$ per hour seems way to expensive to me, considering that you are generally expected to take one lesson per week regularly. Maybe you can settle with three per month, I am not sure! But even if I have to take only two a month, the time I have to spend extra to be able to afford that seems not worth it to me. Better spend that time in self study and score reading.
So, while I am totally not convinced by the EIS thing as it is currently offered, I am curious as anybody about the method and would probably buy a book on it.
I can live without that book, though! It looks very much unlikely any of this is gonna change, so, the curiosity is always fed by something you cannot have. I suppose I would be very disappointed when I found it out ... anyway, I will stop posting, as it is indeed starting to get a pointless thread. Arguments start repeating ...


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## Craig Sharmat (Mar 9, 2019)

Just so you know, though weekly lessons are suggested to keep momentum going (those on 2 week plans are likely to stop from experience) there is no forced lesson schedule. One student did the entire course in under 3 yrs, another David Blumberg was proud that he did it in seventeen! Life and work of course take precedence and some take when they can. Also many people get through say Book VI and go, that's enough.


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## wst3 (Mar 9, 2019)

I do not see how our experiences are similar, yet alone the same thing. I got all the answers I needed.

Of course you have to take private lessons to learn EIS. That's how it is done. That is no secret.

If they could teach it in an hour I expect they'd charge quite a bit for that hour<G>!


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## gsilbers (Mar 9, 2019)

i took a few lessons with david blumberg (i think?. he lived in pacific palisades and passed away, its been a while)

i had the books and the way that theory was approach was interesting. i dont think i would of understood things if i just saw the books since its similar to jazz theory fro berklee but at the samet ime diferent. eis, jazz and classical mostly take you to the same place but in each it helps change styles or ideas.. imo. i was always looking a way to translate what i leanred at berklee and yet it was like a paralel world.
i do think there could be like rick beato sort of main courses where the basics can be descirbed and then have teachers help out, just like any approach. but then again, i only took a few courses.
i did see the potential of composing w/o key signatures interesting, specially for film music.

The whole way of approaching the learning and field seems to me a little restrictive. so much so that imo, since david passed on, and most EIS info is in this forum and themain website, i feel the whole concept will end up here :http://mjt.org/themainpage/main2.html .
just a glass stand with a few pages of EIS with a short description of what EIS was in a forgotten corner of the Venice (LA) museum of jurassic technology.

back when david and spud where doing classes it made sense since many film composers in LA knew about it, and composers where into that. but nowadays i think someone should make video courses for youtube and promote a website to find instructions to learn more about it. at least a main video showcasing the ideas behind it will enable newcomers to try new things, instead of being some random forum post no one has any idea about it and dicarded for the next spitfire labs video.


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## Craig Sharmat (Mar 9, 2019)

gsilbers...videos are in the works and yes there is a possibility that the course dies at some point which would be a shame as there is so much useful information in it. We are working on trying to make information more accessible, there is a ways to go though and it is not our area of expertise.


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## Farkle (Mar 9, 2019)

wst3 said:


> My experience was quite different. I don't wish to put any of the teachers on the spot, so no names! Two different teachers spent at least an hour each with me, on the phone, and while they aren't going to teach EIS in an hour (wouldn't that be lovely) I do believe I understand what it is I would learn, and what they expect of me in terms of time and money.
> 
> My life turned upside down a couple years ago, and it hasn't completely settled, and I'm not going to start something to which I can not commit. But I do believe I know enough to make an informed decision, and as I mentioned earlier, I will be studying EIS when time allows.



Well, Bill, FWIW, if you decide EIS is something you like to study, I'm only 30 min away. And, my studio has a couch, and a bunch of 12-15 year scotches. 

Mike


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## Craig Sharmat (Mar 9, 2019)

If it helps I always share the books with people if they come over my place, it is not supposed to be a secret, i just can't give course materials away. Bill I would think Mike would be happy to show you the materials.


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## Farkle (Mar 9, 2019)

Craig Sharmat said:


> If it helps I always share the books with people if they come over my place, it is not supposed to be a secret, i just can't give course materials away. Bill I would think Mike would be happy to show you the materials.




oh, absolutely, if anyone wanted to come to my studio, and hangout, i could show materials, walkthrough some cues i did with eis, etc. Not a problem. and.... the 12 year scotches...


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## chillbot (Mar 9, 2019)

Ferkel's using scotch again to try to lure people into being friends...


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## Farkle (Mar 9, 2019)

chillbot said:


> Ferkel's using scotch again to try to lure people into being friends...


Scotch and EIS... the one two punch for the lonely philly composer...


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## sleepy hollow (Mar 9, 2019)

I hope we end up with having wst3 as guest speaker on one of the next Farkle Fridays.


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## Farkle (Mar 9, 2019)

sleepy hollow said:


> I hope we end up with having wst3 as guest speaker on one of the next Farkle Fridays.



That's a great idea! Let's do it!

Mike


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## gsilbers (Mar 9, 2019)

Craig Sharmat said:


> gsilbers...videos are in the works and yes there is a possibility that the course dies at some point which would be a shame as there is so much useful information in it. We are working on trying to make information more accessible, there is a ways to go though and it is not our area of expertise.



cool. maybe an EIS teacher can be a guest a in a rick beatos video and see where it goes? im sure he is dying to find more content ideas . EIS would be cool.


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## d.healey (Mar 9, 2019)

Farkle said:


> oh, absolutely, if anyone wanted to come to my studio, and hangout, i could show materials, walkthrough some cues i did with eis, etc. Not a problem. and.... the 12 year scotches...


Why not do it as a video/livestream? Then everyone can get an idea of what it is no-matter where they are.


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## Craig Sharmat (Mar 9, 2019)

d.healey said:


> Why not do it as a video/livestream? Then everyone can get an idea of what it is no-matter where they are.


I think that’s a good idea. We need a way to execute it in a relatable fashion.


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## Farkle (Mar 9, 2019)

Craig Sharmat said:


> I think that’s a good idea. We need a way to execute it in a relatable fashion.




Ooo, I like. Let me talk with Craig about it. That has legs!!

Mike


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## laurikoivisto (Mar 9, 2019)

I thought Farkle didn't drink


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## InLight-Tone (Mar 9, 2019)

laurikoivisto said:


> I thought Farkle didn't drink


It seems to be a thing with loner composers...:emoji_cocktail::emoji_wine_glass::emoji_beers:


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## FriFlo (Mar 10, 2019)

chillbot said:


> Ferkel's using scotch again to try to lure people into being friends...


Come on! "Ferkel"? You intentionally made that typo, because you know German ...


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## Blackster (Mar 10, 2019)

Craig Sharmat said:


> Vgamer,In the end it is about the music and you can decide whether you like what the students in the course do. Go to the website, that should be enough to stop worthless debate which is a waste of time. Also why don't you use your real name.... I appreciate when people come in here and try to take down the course, it always fails and it brings more attention to the course, something we would not do on our own...so thank you.
> 
> For those asking about MITA, it is run by 2 EIS graduates and there is some EIS in it but they have branched out and mostly do their own thing.



Not mostly, but completely! And also for the records, yes, I graduated from EIS but also studied the traditional Diatonic System at university and with many other instructors! For that reason, we start with the Diatonic approach and go from there by injecting interval theory to create more freedom.

And everything we do, we keep it very transparent on our website and in all conversations. We offer free materials and free lessons from actual courses inside the membership area. Everybody will know exactly what this is all about and what MITA brings to the table:

https://musicintervaltheory.academy/free-videos/
https://musicintervaltheory.academy/free-materials/
https://musicintervaltheory.academy/members-area/free-courses/


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EDIT:
Actually, I wrote a blog post about my own personal WHY I created MITA in the first place. This might be interesting for some of you, that's why I'm sharing this. 
https://musicintervaltheory.academy/what-is-your-personal-why/ 

One of our CITs (composers in training) was so kind and also publish a report of how he uses MITA techniques. This might also be interesting:
https://musicintervaltheory.academy/inside-the-community-nathanael-iversen-my-process-of-gathering-material/


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## Blackster (Mar 10, 2019)

Well, not all of our subscribed members take lessons as this is optional. You can learn a lot of MITA concepts and their application only by becoming a member and not taking lessons at all. 

However, one always has to consider the value of what you will be getting and therefore, we are offering many free materials. Also, the risk is rather low as you can go lesson after lesson and quit at any time if it's not for you. 

The goal of any truthful and honest business is to provide as much value as possible to the client and not to sell at any cost. If I knew what your musical plans are I can tell very clearly wether MITA can help you to get there or not. 

But for those who want focus more on prices than value, there's a great quote that comes to my mind: education costs money and so does ignorance  ...

But don't worry, we'll continue to deliver value for free in forms of free materials on the website and live streams as this is the only way to communicate what you're standing for and why it's unique


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## FriFlo (Mar 11, 2019)

Blackster said:


> But for those who want focus more on prices than value, there's a great quote that comes to my mind: education costs money and so does ignorance  ...


That is of course true, but it is a bit general ...
In Europe, you genreally get high class education for free, as this is mostly the philosophy of most people here that this should be the case. For certain fields that high class education is not open to anyone, it requires certain prerequisites like school grades or rather passing a test for most of musical studies. Therefore, other institutions, that cost money, partly fully funded by tuition, partly subsidized partially by the state, are a secondary option for those who could not study at a university or want to expand on certain topics.
In the US, this seems to be completely different. Only the most talented people get the chance of free education at this level through scholarship.
So, what price seems reasonable for which education seems dependent quite a bit on where on the world you live and what your basic education in the field of music was.
In my case, I already studied music and on top of that film scoring. Taking another class to broaden my horizon or choosing not to pursue that hardly will result in ignorance. For someone who did not study music before or maybe only learned raw basics this might be completely different of course ...


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## FriFlo (Mar 11, 2019)

And to be clear on that: I do not write that to mock EIS, nor to mock MITA ... It is just a general observation from my background. I offer music lessons, mostly piano. But sometimes I also get asked to prepare people for university tests in music (ear training and theory). Sometimes, people want to take private lesson in composition (for film) as well. Here in Europe, I always recommend them to apply for their desired field at a university, if they are able to. It is not to say, that private tuition is always worse, but the money you have to put into a private education (including instrumental lessons etc ...) is quite steep and I wouldn't want anyone to be left with a huge pile of debt, that is very hard to pay back, especially in the field of music!
Basically, all the conversation and argument here is so much dependent on the individual prerequisites, that it does not make much sense to discuss it without taking these into account.


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## chillbot (Mar 11, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> Come on! "Ferkel"? You intentionally made that typo, because you know German ...


This is true. Though it was @Hannes_F who taught it to me.


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## rmak (Mar 9, 2021)

Are there any individuals working full time (a job unrelated to music composing) that have completed EIS, can you share what it cost you to complete the program or annual time and money invested? Or maybe the amount invested per book, that would be nice to know also. I know there are 227 lessons (12 books), and it is intended to be completed in 4 years with 1 private lesson per week? You can message me if you don't want to post here? I know maybe it's different per person. I saw $110? Is that per private lesson?

I work full time, 32 hours a week, and am wondering if this is viable for someone with my capacity. I grew up taking piano lessons, so I have fundamental music theory knowledge. I am currently trying out MITA, but I am also curious about EIS also. I am trying to get an idea of what the financial and time commitment is. Thanks


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## Craig Sharmat (Mar 10, 2021)

Hi rmak 

So as to get a proper view of students who have other professions I can see if any would like to share their experience. That might be a useful perspective for you.

Most students don’t finish, pro or otherwise, the goal is to acquire information. If one chooses to finish that’s great but getting better and learning more techniques and ideas should be the focus. As far as cost per lesson you are in the ballpark. Lessons are one on one.


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## Leandro Gardini (Mar 16, 2021)

It's nice to see some people interested in EIS in 2021. The community is far from what it used to be when David Blumberg was the head of it, but the course itself has many merits.
The Jedis are gone, but the legacy remains alive eagerly asking for leadership.


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## just2high (Oct 3, 2021)

rmak said:


> Are there any individuals working full time (a job unrelated to music composing) that have completed EIS, can you share what it cost you to complete the program or annual time and money invested? Or maybe the amount invested per book, that would be nice to know also. I know there are 227 lessons (12 books), and it is intended to be completed in 4 years with 1 private lesson per week? You can message me if you don't want to post here? I know maybe it's different per person. I saw $110? Is that per private lesson?
> 
> I work full time, 32 hours a week, and am wondering if this is viable for someone with my capacity. I grew up taking piano lessons, so I have fundamental music theory knowledge. I am currently trying out MITA, but I am also curious about EIS also. I am trying to get an idea of what the financial and time commitment is. Thanks


Hi rmak, sorry late to the party here. While I work in a music related field I started taking lessons when I was working a main job to pay the bills that was 40+ hours a week. It took me 7 or 8 years to complete due to schedule so there were stretches I couldn't take lessons for a few months. I would argue that working freelance can actually make the course take longer because your schedule can be more unpredictable.

In my opinion the only hurdle to completing the course is personal dedication in terms of setting aside the time to complete assignments, practice, and showing up for lessons. The questions of whether or not you can fit in weekly lessons will have to be up to you, if you feel like you can dedicate the 1 hour time for the lesson, plus 2 to 4 hours /week working on the assignment. Money wise it came out to be between 2000 to 4000 / year but as a music professional it was definitely worth it to me. As a composer I found that the knowledge of EIS gave me so much more freedom and command of my craft and also more confident.

I found the information and experience to be invaluable to my professional development, not just in the music theory / application aspect, but in having regular critique of my work, a regular deadline, and regular practice. I learned how to write really fast and I attribute that to having completed EIS. As with all education though what you get out of it is directly related to what you put into it. Whether or not to undertake the journey will be a question of what your goals are as a composer and also a matter of fit as not all teaching styles fit all people so I would also say that if you decide to embark on it there's no reason you can't decide you don't want to continue at some point. When thinking about the fee for the lesson I think we often forget about the human on the other end. We are asking for someone to dedicate their time and knowledge for our benefit, in my case it was also the professional experience and mentorship, so at the end of the day the lessons were worth every penny and then some.


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