# When to cheese?



## Zero&One (Jan 5, 2019)

Hi all

I've recently moved towards Orchestral music from EDM and many many years of rock/metal guitar playing/bands.

So my question is: what is cheesy in this domain? 
Don't get me wrong, I love a bit of cheese in music and because everyone avoids it so much it can be a breath of fresh air (sometimes). But I also don't want to pour over hours of music for people to spit their coffee out in disgust.

Does cheese exist in orchestral... do i just need to 'cut the cheese' to get where I need to go?

Info: I'm writing very minimal sad stuff, horror type, to big epic Raaar things. That's the 3 areas. I presume horror needs cheese thrown on like an Italian chef... but the others?


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jan 5, 2019)

Well. Everything about epic music is cheesy, for example. From the big layered drums and percussion over the string ostinatos and braaaming brass all the way to the idiotic sub bass drop. But you still hear this stuff in every movie trailer that comes out, apparently - and it only became even more unlistenable and polluted with sheer noise than it used to be.

Old style romantic scoring is also cheesy as heck, with the high strings in octaves, schmalzy melodies in major, and all that nonsense. Everything about classic "adventure" style scoring is also pure cheese, with those mixolydian flying Superman horn themes, the high woodwinds runs, jarring chordal full stops, etc. In minimalistic styles, there's the ever-lurking threat of the "single piano note". 

So - I don't know, it's perhaps a bit too much of a general question, but obviously, there's all kinds of cheese in orchestral music; some very aged cheese and some other that was mouldy from the get-go.


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## PaulBrimstone (Jan 5, 2019)

We cerebral VI-C types prefer the term “fromage,” if you please.


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## Zero&One (Jan 5, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Well. Everything about epic music is cheesy, for example. From the big layered drums and percussion over the string ostinatos and braaaming brass all the way to the idiotic sub bass drop. But you still hear this stuff in every movie trailer that comes out, apparently - and it only became even more unlistenable and polluted with sheer noise than it used to be.
> 
> Old style romantic scoring is also cheesy as heck, with the high strings in octaves, schmalzy melodies in major, and all that nonsense. Everything about classic "adventure" style scoring is also pure cheese, with those mixolydian flying Superman horn themes, the high woodwinds runs, jarring chordal full stops, etc. In minimalistic styles, there's the ever-lurking threat of the "single piano note".
> 
> So - I don't know, it's perhaps a bit too much of a general question, but obviously, there's all kinds of cheese in orchestral music; some very aged cheese and some other that was mouldy from the get-go.



Thanks! That's great information and very helpful.

With this in mind, I think I'm currently hovering around every one of these "fromage sins". Maybe nibbling at the corners towards eating full chunks at times!
At least I now know when to back off a bit in future productions.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jan 5, 2019)

Bottom line I think it's more about the delivery than the ingredients themselves. There's all kinds of ways of using big drums, ostinati, octave melodies or wind runs without automatically sounding clichéd.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 5, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Old style romantic scoring is also cheesy as heck, with the high strings in octaves, schmalzy melodies in major, and all that nonsense. Everything about classic "adventure" style scoring is also pure cheese, with those mixolydian flying Superman horn themes, the high woodwinds runs, jarring chordal full stops, etc. In minimalistic styles, there's the ever-lurking threat of the "single piano note".
> 
> .



There's truth to this, however the epic action scores from the 30s right into the 70s remain more musically and orchestrationally involved. The new "mega-fart" sound is just that, total lack of light and shade, most often robotic. A monkey could use presets to make an epic, trailer track of today's (beat to death and beyond) Dark Knight clone (oops, it would help if Cheetah had a ridiculously obnoxious Limiter). Good luck using presets to make an epic orchestral track...it's almost always going to be more difficult, trust me on this.


*Do what your muse is telling you, your gut. Then you'll know exactly when everything fits. *​


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 5, 2019)

James H said:


> Hi all
> 
> I've recently moved towards Orchestral music from EDM and many many years of rock/metal guitar playing/bands.
> 
> ...



I should mention, James...don't get mad, but you might have dropped an ultimately more lucrative instrument for something that might never amount to much financially. This is of course presuming this isn't a hobby (which of course is perfectly fine). The music composer biz is so jammed today with people making epic music...you stand a far better chance of playing live shows with your guitar. Really.

I mention this in now way meaning to make you crestfallen about becoming a composer, but as a working (mostly rent-earning) composer who knows more than a few others in this profession I can tell you: you might instead want to stick with guitar (and maybe build some orchestral music _around _that instrument).


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## DS_Joost (Jan 5, 2019)

James H said:


> Hi all
> 
> I've recently moved towards Orchestral music from EDM and many many years of rock/metal guitar playing/bands.
> 
> ...



People who talk about cheese I always presume don't have their emotions in check anymore. I hate the word cheese like I hate the word cliche. It drapes a dark cloak over what otherwise could be fantastic compositions. Many of my favourite composers ''cheese'' the hell out of their music, and I wouldn't have them otherwise; Vangelis (my good the guy loves his fondue!) James Horner (thinking more of a French cheese on toast kinda guy), Jerry Goldsmith (definitely a fan of Cheddar, the monster that he is). 

Truth is, it's a stupid word made up by people who want to seem like adults and want to blame the loss of their childhood and innocence on something else so they don't seem to be the soulless corporate zombies they really are. Create music, and don't listen to those people in any way, shape or form. Let your emotions run wild. Why would you let your genuine emotion when listening to something you love be taken away by someone who has no business of doing so? Because in the end, music is entirely subjective.


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## SchnookyPants (Jan 5, 2019)

For those out there who may be lactose-intolerant, you may freely substitute schmaltz.


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## brenneisen (Jan 5, 2019)

do not trust



Parsifal666 said:


> your gut.



especially if you



James H said:


> recently moved towards Orchestral music



you are a beginner to the genre so trust good references instead.

could you point what kind of "orchestral music" you're trying to make?


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 5, 2019)

brenneisen said:


> do not trust
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are basing your above post by taking my comments completely out of context to the topic, my friend. This topic is about "_*when*_ (not how) to", which makes it a question about _arranging_.

No offense or disrespect intended, but you are the one who just mislead the op by taking my quote out of context. Try reading back again, please.


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## dgburns (Jan 5, 2019)

One man’s Châteauneuf du Pap is another man’s Compte.

I find your lack of cheese disturbing. If you only knew the power of the cheese.


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## Kent (Jan 5, 2019)

What is "cheese," really?

I'm halfway of the opinion that cheese is writing music that is proficient, but isn't appropriate, either in part or in whole, to the application at hand.

For example, a lot of Muzak tracks are actually pretty great. And they work for their purposes (like department stores, phone holds, and elevators). But to write that same music for a 3-hour action-adventure would be cheesy.

Or having a Picardy third at the end of a Bach piece - not cheesy. But at the end of C-rate pop music - probably cheesy.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jan 5, 2019)

DS_Joost said:


> People who talk about cheese I always presume don't have their emotions in check anymore. I hate the word cheese like I hate the word cliche. It drapes a dark cloak over what otherwise could be fantastic compositions. Many of my favourite composers ''cheese'' the hell out of their music, and I wouldn't have them otherwise; Vangelis (my good the guy loves his fondue!) James Horner (thinking more of a French cheese on toast kinda guy), Jerry Goldsmith (definitely a fan of Cheddar, the monster that he is).
> 
> Truth is, it's a stupid word made up by people who want to seem like adults and want to blame the loss of their childhood and innocence on something else so they don't seem to be the soulless corporate zombies they really are. Create music, and don't listen to those people in any way, shape or form. Let your emotions run wild. Why would you let your genuine emotion when listening to something you love be taken away by someone who has no business of doing so? Because in the end, music is entirely subjective.



Well that's some pretty creative psychological profiling and perhaps a bit of projection.

We speak of clichés or "cheese" when certain modes of expression are overdone, especially in a superficial, ingenuine way that lacks dilligence and creativity. History and context are important factors. Some artists may have done things that many would perceive as cheesy, but perhaps it wasn't them who were hackneyed and unimaginative, but others who lazily emulated what they did to the point of quasi-persiflage, thus establishing the cliché.

Also: being into clichés - or having bad taste even - is not a crime. It's OK to have preferences whatever those may be, and the views of others, albeit perhaps justifiable, shouldn't leave one with a feeling of having to justify oneself, which I'm under the impression is the case for you.


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## Paul Grymaud (Jan 5, 2019)

*Cheese ?







*


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jan 5, 2019)

Really? Really...?
Oh. My. God. What a hot mess. You're literally throwing cliches under the bus. No words. It's not _not_ cheesy. It is what it is. Nailed it.
Just sayin'.


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## Zero&One (Jan 5, 2019)

Thanks everyone, all really interesting points and even funnier cheese references  One of the very few forums I use where the replies are useful and not abuse or arguments for the sake of it. 
I imagine you all sitting there writing amazing scores by candlelight, using a quill whilst drinking the finest wine... am I close?

Sadly due to a recent disability I'm forced away from the guitar as my hands simply can't play at that standard now. So computer based production has been a life saver to me. Having access to these amazing libraries and talking to such great guys/gals on this forum is something I couldn't even imagine in the late 70's (shows age). So it's all cool.

As Parsifal666 said, I usually go with my gut and things normally work out. Hopefully I'll put some cheese ridden compositions up this year and we can all discuss "where it all went wrong"


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## Saxer (Jan 6, 2019)

I love naturally matured full-fat cheese!
https://tunein.com/radio/BEAUTIFULinstrumentalscom-s156850/


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jan 7, 2019)

Saxer said:


> I love naturally matured full-fat cheese!
> https://tunein.com/radio/BEAUTIFULinstrumentalscom-s156850/



You old fart!

I've been listening to this stream for two hours now.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 23, 2019)

It's all in he "ear" of the beholder. I have a longtime working relationship with a certain theatre director, he calls me up when he needs that over-the-top cheesy romance score because I can nail that whole sound.


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## Crowe (Jan 23, 2019)

Always. All hail the cheese.

We bow to our lord cheese and praise him for his creaminess.

In cheese we trust.

I live in a town called Gouda. Go figure.


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## Soundhound (Jan 23, 2019)

No news is gouda news.


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## Kuusniemi (Jan 23, 2019)

This will add nothing to this conversation and I apologize in advance but:


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## Chr!s (Jan 23, 2019)

Do "cheesy" whenever you feel like it. What a bunch of old guys on forums think actually doesn't matter in the long or short run.


Shiirai said:


> Always. All hail the cheese.
> 
> We bow to our lord cheese and praise him for his creaminess.
> 
> ...



Don't they literally have a cheese museum there?


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## Crowe (Jan 23, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> Do "cheesy" whenever you feel like it. What a bunch of old guys on forums think actually doesn't matter in the long or short run.
> 
> 
> Don't they literally have a cheese museum there?



Indeed we do, but it's a lot less impressive than you'd think.


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