# Anyone else feeling a little bit badly used by Avid?



## sinkd (Nov 12, 2015)

If I don't upgrade to 12 (which I don't really want to do) now for $99, it will cost me $299 at a later date to upgrade PLUS $99/year. If you let it lapse then you are on the hook for another $299 to "reinstate"...

From an Avid email:

*How do I upgrade in 2015?*
As a Pro Tools 11 owner, you have two choices available, but only through December 31, 2015…

Upgrade to Pro Tools 12 for $99 through the new All Access Annual Upgrade Plan, which includes access to all future Pro Tools releases for 12 months, renewable annually for $99/year
Upgrade to Pro Tools 12 for $199 through the soon-to-be retired Annual Upgrade and Support Plan, which includes:
Access to all future Pro Tools releases for 12 months, renewable annually thereafter for $99/year through the new All Access Annual Upgrade Plan
 Access to a collection of 17 bonus plug-ins and support, renewable annually thereafter for $99/year through the new Annual Plug-in and Support Plan

You can purchase these upgrade plans through the Avid Store or your local reseller. Please note that the Annual Upgrade and Support Plan will be retired at the end of this year.

*What happens if I don’t upgrade in 2015 or let my plan expire?*
You’ll still be able to upgrade your software at any time, but the price of a new or reinstated Annual Upgrade Plan will increase to $299 starting in 2016. This plan gives you access to all new Pro Tools releases for 12 months, renewable annually thereafter for $99/year. If you want access to the bonus plug-ins and support, add the Annual Plug-in and Support Plan for $99/year.


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## vicontrolu (Nov 12, 2015)

Avid is the worst company i ever bought something from. Unexisting support


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## gsilbers (Nov 12, 2015)

I just realized I have no idea whats going on with pro tools. I have pro tools HD 9 and use my rme interface.

I am trying to find the upgrade to pro tools HD 12 but seems that it doesn't exist. Its just pro tools 12. is this correct?

pro tools HD 12 is only if I have an avid interface, which I don't. so I didn't see an upgrade option from pro tools HD 9 (non avid hardware) unless I buy Pro tools 12 for $600.

is this correct?
man.. what a shit%y company.


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## lumcas (Nov 12, 2015)

gsilbers said:


> I just realized I have no idea whats going on with pro tools. I have pro tools HD 9 and use my rme interface.
> 
> I am trying to find the upgrade to pro tools HD 12 but seems that it doesn't exist. Its just pro tools 12. is this correct?
> 
> ...





Looks like you've found the upgrade, here's the link, you have to scroll down a bit for the upgrade options

https://www.avid.com/US/products/pro-tools-software/licensing

Yes the upgrade price is $600 and then $399 each year to stay current. As I have to spend 12 or more hours in Pro Tools almost every single day, it's the price I accept, but really can't say I'm a fan.


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## gsilbers (Nov 12, 2015)

you are shiting me!!1
$600 to upgrade is the same as buying new!
AND I have to pay $100 every year after that?!?

So no matter if I pay the full license I still have to pay $100 once a year?!! im guessing I can still use it but I wont be able to get the software update. (? )


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## zwiebel (Nov 12, 2015)

The HD-License is $399/year.
$99/year is for the "Vanilla"-Version.


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## lumcas (Nov 12, 2015)

gsilbers said:


> you are shiting me!!1
> $600 to upgrade is the same as buying new!
> AND I have to pay $100 every year after that?!?
> 
> So no matter if I pay the full license I still have to pay $100 once a year?!! im guessing I can still use it but I wont be able to get the software update. (? )




No it's not the same price as buying new, simply because you still cannot buy HD software on its own, it's tied to hardware. You either upgrade your HD license for $600 until the end of this year and you have PT12.3 and any other update which will become available in 12 months period (this license will work forever but once you stop paying $399/yearly fee you're stuck at the latest version which is current at the time your "support plan" runs out and you can buy in again, but it's more expensive) or you keep your PT9 HD and call it a day. What HD only features are you using? I'm asking, because surprisingly, a lot of HD features has found its way into PT Vanilla (non HD) recently.


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## NoamL (Nov 12, 2015)

It's the same business model as Finale. Pay every year, or pay a whopping price when your version finally gets cut off from backwards compatibility. Either way they win.


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## JohnG (Nov 12, 2015)

Finale is not the same in my experience. You can skip years (or at least you could) and you didn't have to pay "catch-up" upgrade prices.

Avid is the worst company I've ever bought anything from with this abuse. I have PT HD9 and I will never upgrade it.


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## kitekrazy (Nov 12, 2015)

I can say after trying Pro Tools Worst, I would never deal with them. It's the worst way to ever get someone to go Pro Tools. Outside of being the industry standard I don't know how long they will last with the "you need us" model along with naive college kids.


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## gsilbers (Nov 12, 2015)

lumcas said:


> No it's not the same price as buying new, simply because you still cannot buy HD software on its own, it's tied to hardware. You either upgrade your HD license for $600 until the end of this year and you have PT12.3 and any other update which will become available in 12 months period (this license will work forever but once you stop paying $399/yearly fee you're stuck at the latest version which is current at the time your "support plan" runs out and you can buy in again, but it's more expensive) or you keep your PT9 HD and call it a day. What HD only features are you using? I'm asking, because surprisingly, a lot of HD features has found its way into PT Vanilla (non HD) recently.




I am not understaning what you are saying.

I have pro tools HD 9 with no hardware.

There is no PT HD 12 without the HD hardware, right?... therefore, I need to get pro tools 12.

Pro tools 12 is $600.
Upgrade from 9 $600.

I might be missing something but the store is not working now

https://www.avid.com/US/products/pro-tools-software/licensing
(upgrade to 12 bottoms take me no were)


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## gsilbers (Nov 12, 2015)

JohnG said:


> Finale is not the same in my experience. You can skip years (or at least you could) and you didn't have to pay "catch-up" upgrade prices.
> 
> Avid is the worst company I've ever bought anything from with this abuse. I have PT HD9 and I will never upgrade it.


ditto...
but is hd 9 compatible with el capitan?


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## jasonachapman (Nov 12, 2015)

I'm still rocking Pro Tools 10 and refuse to upgrade until I must. Avid has a history of turning users into "legacy" product users with otherwise perfectly functioning hardware (Control 24 etc.).


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## kdm (Nov 12, 2015)

I got the same email today and laughed. I have PT 10HD and a PT 9 license and will never upgrade. Avid is grasping for income because they have run out of ideas for new features that would sell updates (and the DAW market for new customers probably isn't evolving in their favor anymore). That's why I think companies move to subscriptions - guaranteed income with little or no pressure to keep developing anything.


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## D.Salzenberg (Nov 13, 2015)

kdm said:


> I got the same email today and laughed. I have PT 10HD and a PT 9 license and will never upgrade. Avid is grasping for income because they have run out of ideas for new features that would sell updates (and the DAW market for new customers probably isn't evolving in their favor anymore). That's why I think companies move to subscriptions - guaranteed income with little or no pressure to keep developing anything.


This is exactly why companies will move to the subscription model. They know that the software already does everything people need many versions/years ago, but they need to keep everyone on the upgrade spiral to keep revenue coming in.


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## Guy Rowland (Nov 13, 2015)

So...

As far as understand it (you hear that phrase a lot with Avid discussion), HD was originally tied to HD hardware. The CPTK add on allowed an HD feature set for regular customers. 2 or 3 years ago they discontinued CPTK, and people could migrate to HD (software only) for $599. They have never made HD software-only to buy new (although if you go to Audiodeluxe they do sell it somehow - and add to cart for a whopping discount).

With me so far?

So then they migrated their system to annual plans or rental. With an annual plan they originally said you had to upgrade every year, or your license would be forever locked - functioning at the existing version but not upgradeable. Then they changed their minds, reduced the fees and allowed upgrades on lapsed licenses (at a premium).

Then they rolled in a lot of HD features into regular PT. What remains HD-exclusive are Post features, surround and higher track counts. They also bundled a lot of plugins, but these are rental-only, valid only when subscription is active. I believe the cheapest regular PT upgrade at $99 for current subscribers does not include these bundled plugins, you pay $199 for that. HD Subscribers have additional rental plugs.

It's a lot of smoke and mirrors to disguise 2-3 years of no actual new features (aside from opening up HD features and bundling rental plugs). 12.3 is the first to have anything significant since 11.0.

For music use, HD is no longer necessary IMO. Audiodeluxe have easily the best deals I've seen for new customers. Avid in the meantime have irritated practically everyone, and it's almost a full time job keeping up with the soap opera.


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## Killiard (Nov 13, 2015)

I upgraded to PT12 from 10 the other month. Finally gave in, purely for offline bounce really.
Was unimpressed to begin with, flaky and graphically a mess. I was constantly having to give up and go back to 10. Just upgraded last week to 12.3 and it finally feels like they've bothered to do something useful. The clip transparency and batch fades are coming in really handy (I do a lot of audio editing when not composing) and the metering options are pretty good too. Still all feels like stuff they should have done YEARS ago though.
I feel pretty fed up with Avid overall, I hate the subscription model, but it's still the fastest audio editor for me.

I agree with Guy about HD being no longer necessary for music use. Certainly for smaller studios anyway. The last studio I worked at (was there 8 years) was running PT7 HD for years and years. When it came time to think about upgrading when PT11 came out, we looked at the cost of upgrading the HD system versus just buying "vanilla" and an RME Fireface. The HD system is now gathering dust in a corner somewhere.

Jordan


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## dtonthept (Nov 13, 2015)

I've been a Pt user and evangelist my entire career, to the point of public endorsements, featuring in pro tools print ads, and a NAMM appearance. 

I'm now learning Reaper.


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## d.healey (Nov 13, 2015)

dtonthept said:


> I'm now learning Reaper.


 Good Move!


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## kclements (Nov 13, 2015)

I find this too with Sibelius. I'm still on version 6. I downloaded Vs 8 demo and its ok. But no real new features ( that I can see) other than that blasted ribbon, which I don't care for at all. I guess this version is 64 bit, so there is that.

I was close to hitting the upgrade button for $89 a year, but I hate to "reward" Avid for this mediocre product and what I see as bad business practices. 

I'm really waiting on the new program by Steinberg/Spreadbury. Even though I'm sure it won't be as capable out of the gate, I'm switching.


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## JohnG (Nov 13, 2015)

gsilbers said:


> but is hd 9 compatible with el capitan?



Definitely "no." The last version of Mac OS with which HD9 is compatible is Snowleopard. Thank goodness I bought the install disk for that OS and held onto it.


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## JohnG (Nov 13, 2015)

There are two things I still like about PT (apart from familiarity, which is nice). One is that it's compatible with all my clients' delivery requirements. The second is the zero latency for recording.

Of the two, the latter is really the only important one to me. 

I bought a new HD system some years ago and within 14 months it was "legacy." 100%. No discount of any significance - they said it would be roughly $15-$20k in costs, mostly hardware, to replicate what I had for an upgrade of the software. Total insanity. How can you treat customers like that and expect them to spend money?


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## GdT (Nov 13, 2015)

kclements said:


> I find this too with Sibelius. I'm still on version


Me too. I am sticking on Sibelius version 7 and they want lots of $ just to upgrade for a few minor improvements. Rip off in my opinion.


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## MrVoice (Nov 13, 2015)

Now I have just fiddle around with PT at some point in a studio so Im not a user.
But reading this thread (and seen same discussions in other forums) makes me a bit sick.

I see more and more musicians, studios, company's etc changing to Reaper and just wanted to give a tip to watch this clip.
Jon Tidey from reaperblog.net show how his friend Ryan change from PT to Reaper and what he thinks.



I bought my license 2012 for $69 and wont need to pay for a upgrade untill it reach version 6, Version 5 has just been released. 
I can put my $ on other things and have a DAW that works at least as good as PT from what I heard.

/Nick


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## Daryl (Nov 13, 2015)

The only feature I need from HD is higher track count. The fact that I have to pay so much extra just to use more tracks is ridiculous. However, I will probably have to upgrade all three studios and am not looking forward to giving Avid my money. At least I'm sticking with Sibelius 6, so I won't be paying for that as well.

D


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## milesito (Nov 13, 2015)

Yes, this new business model is not ideal, but they're trying to adapt. Do the pros think that there is anything that can replace pro-tools in industry? I'm sure AVID thinks "no"...but the subscription model really can cost a lot. If I were doing it all over 18 years old, maybe just logic or cubase and finale would be a good investment to learn...I'm not a protools user but how much better is pro-tools vs logic in terms of what it can do and the quality for which it does it?


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## kclements (Nov 13, 2015)

_Edit: kdm below explained it better than I did._


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## kdm (Nov 13, 2015)

ProTools' main selling point is that parts of the industry rely on compatibility and consistency - film post mainly - and since PT was there first, so it established itself as a "standard" of sorts. Now it is just too risky for many studios to change, but at the same time, Avid is making itself a bit of risk too. 

PT does routing and audio editing well. Near zero latency hardware has been a big plus, but that might not be the main draw anymore. PT was also designed for fast, efficient editing - key commands are laid out to usually make the most of key strokes and hand movement. That is worth a lot. Other applications sometimes miss the idea that an extra mouse click or keystroke for one task can add up to hundreds during the course of a day. OMF and AAF compatibility with Avid video systems is also a big draw. That's really why PT is still deeply entrenched in certain markets. But other applications can be just as fast if you adapt to their design, though might fall short when it comes to consistent OMF/AFF imports. 

Film post seems to be the only market with little room for change. I don't think ProTools has nearly as much clout in the music world as it did even 5 years ago where cross-compatibility is more manageable between other applications. PT isn't necessarily better on the whole than some of the other options - Nuendo for one - it just has a long-standing presence that is difficult to replace. I think it will happen though. Avid isn't innovating the way other companies are.


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## ChristopherDoucet (Nov 13, 2015)

I'll defer to a quote from Luke Skywalker:

"It's not that I like the Empire; I hate it, but there's nothing I can do about it right now..."


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## dgburns (Nov 13, 2015)

I think this all means updating a lot less often,which also means not updating the Mac Os either.


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## mc_deli (Nov 13, 2015)

Sibelius 6 here and I will never go higher by subscription.
PT10 at home now not in use and will never be.
But... PT10HD and HDX 48 i/o in big studio... on 10.7.5... if we want SoundToys 5 then the big upgrade rumble starts... but no Yosemite available now so only direct upgrade to 10.11 and then PT12 HD looks possible €€€€€. It looks like we won't upgrade. Bizarrely Avid's ***totally idiotic*** pricing is having the additional effect of stopping us buying other developers' products as well - Soundtoys5, NI KU not being bought for the big studio because of this!

Edit: waffle


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## mc_deli (Nov 13, 2015)

dgburns said:


> I think this all means updating a lot less often,which also means not updating the Mac Os either.


This is why Apple's DL only OS upgrade is so cunning. It is a clever ruse to speed up the replacement cycle. That and the glued battery onto which I type. My old MBP is just about to get its 5th battery.


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## EvilDragon (Nov 13, 2015)

kdm said:


> though might fall short when it comes to consistent OMF/AFF imports



Nope. There's AATranslator, which actually can do wonders beyond OMF/AAF.


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## kdm (Nov 13, 2015)

Well said mc_deli. Software should never have been allowed (by consumers) to adopt service status. As a service/subscription, businesses like us end up at the mercy of the software provider's license servers, and subscription pricing whims of the developer. With a physical, reinstall capable end product, at least we can lock down our OS upgrades and keep working for years to come. Try going offline with Adobe CC for more than 30 days. Adobe might be next on the SaaS failure list (to borrow your acronym). The advantage they have is being somewhat of a monopoly in graphics and web design. There is no noteworthy competition outside of open source, for which the options are few and quite poor. Avid has no such luxury. There is plenty of competition fighting for their market share.


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## kdm (Nov 13, 2015)

EvilDragon said:


> Nope. There's AATranslator, which actually can do wonders beyond OMF/AAF.



Sure, but I somewhat doubt it has been adopted in ProTools-centric post yet. For other DAW use, AATranslator and the apparently EOLd SSL ProConvert can be life-savers.

I was also only referring to direct OMF/AAF support on other DAWs where even with a translator you can lose information - that's where the post market won't tolerate that extra step, or potential for losing automation, etc. DP's OMF support is somewhat non-functioning at the moment, for one example.


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## JohnG (Nov 13, 2015)

mc_deli said:


> Edit: waffle



lols



kdm said:


> DP's OMF support is somewhat non-functioning at the moment, for one example.



really? Used to work "real good." But haven't used it recently.


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## kdm (Nov 13, 2015)

JohnG said:


> really? Used to work "real good." But haven't used it recently.



It could be only on PC, but I recall seeing other DP/Mac users report problems. 
Currently, DP9 will go through the OMF import process, but won't actually import any clips onto the timeline.
It also creates an extra project in the process instead of using the existing project - but neither gets any audio from
the OMF. I reported it to MOTU a couple of months ago, but no response so far.


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## D.Salzenberg (Nov 13, 2015)

I work in graphics and Web design, and Adobe have gone from being a well respected company years ago to the most universally despised company in the industry with their creative cloud. If only there were graphics equivalents of Reaper, then not a single person I know would still use Adobe 
Thankfully with audio there are many choices and Reaper is fantastic software that doesn't try to rip off its users with locked in revenue schemes.
Avid are playing a dangerous game if they think they can walk all over their customers like Adobe have.


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## Bunford (Nov 13, 2015)

I was recently thinking about subscribing to Pro Tools 12. Looked into and Avid, and took about 3 days worth of research to be put off between Avid's shocking customer service and iLok's reputed huge unreliability and failures.


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## Bunford (Nov 13, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> I work in graphics and Web design, and Adobe have gone from being a well respected company years ago to the most universally despised company in the industry with their creative cloud. If only there were graphics equivalents of Reaper, then not a single person I know would still use Adobe
> Thankfully with audio there are many choices and Reaper is fantastic software that doesn't try to rip off its users with locked in revenue schemes.
> Avid are playing a dangerous game if they think they can walk all over their customers like Adobe have.


I have a different experience. Myself and everyone I know who use Adobe's stuff love the new Creative Cloud. Horses for courses I guess.

Additionally, East West's Composer Cloud is great and made their pro Hollywood Orchestra more affordable to users. Same goes for Slate Digital with their effects range. I think in general, it is a pretty good way to go. In my understanding, none of them force people into subscriptions and you can still outright buy products from them, so if you don't like subs you can still just buy it. However, the subs make expensive software accessible to those who don't have the money up front to get in the game, which is only a good thing in my opinion. Kind like the philosophy of "what if the person who can cure cancer can't afford an education". Making things more accessible and more affordable is good for all.


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## dtonthept (Nov 13, 2015)

The only problem is that Avid actually aren't making it more affordable to existing users, many of whom have already paid huge sums of money for Avid products. 

I'm a happy subscriber to waves update plan, as well as the new slate deal, because I feel like they are doing something worthwhile, and providing great incentive. I have the waves mercury bundle, so once I'm in the plan I get the vast majority of their new plugins at a great discount. The thing is, their new plugins tend to really push the envelope and have always been useful. 

The point that we've had to wait till 12.3 for an actual noteworthy feature to be included in pro tools, and that it is something that has been in every other worthwhile daw for years, is a strong indicator that things aren't in good shape over there. 

Which makes looking for viable alternatives suddenly very compelling. 

There was a time when no studios, either music or post, had pro tools rigs. I remember taking our pro tools system to a film mix stage in London in the late 90s to run cues for our score, and thinking they should really move off their "industry standard" platform on to this way better technology. It eventually happened.


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## kdm (Nov 13, 2015)

Bunford said:


> I have a different experience. Myself and everyone I know who use Adobe's stuff love the new Creative Cloud. Horses for courses I guess.



Even though one year of CC ($50/month) costs as much as buying a suite of applications used to cost? That's quite a bit more than I paid for CS3 Web Suite. After 2 years, you could have purchased most everything. CS6 (Mac) sells for around $1200 right now on Amazon and includes 21 applications - if you can freeze your system updates, and that's where subscription systems ensnare users - by depending on OS updates to obsolete older versions.


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## D.Salzenberg (Nov 14, 2015)

Bunford said:


> I have a different experience. Myself and everyone I know who use Adobe's stuff love the new Creative Cloud. Horses for courses I guess.
> 
> Additionally, East West's Composer Cloud is great and made their pro Hollywood Orchestra more affordable to users. Same goes for Slate Digital with their effects range. I think in general, it is a pretty good way to go. In my understanding, none of them force people into subscriptions and you can still outright buy products from them, so if you don't like subs you can still just buy it. However, the subs make expensive software accessible to those who don't have the money up front to get in the game, which is only a good thing in my opinion. Kind like the philosophy of "what if the person who can cure cancer can't afford an education". Making things more accessible and more affordable is good for all.


With Adobe you can no longer purchase their current software outright, and this is why they have become hated. They have forced everyone who wants up to date software to join their rip off revenue scheme.
On the other hand East West have made their model have the benefits of being able to pay an affordable monthly fee. So in their case you could use this to try their sample libraries, and then if it works for you purchase it outright, which is great. It's companies who don't let users purchase outright anymore and then purchase updates when needed that are ripping everyone off.


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## EvilDragon (Nov 14, 2015)

D.Salzenberg said:


> If only there were graphics equivalents of Reaper



Wouldn't that be GIMP? :D


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## dgburns (Nov 14, 2015)

not suggesting this is the slution,but always wondered why Avid did not go the route of dedicated hardware/software to get away from consumer OS's.


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## prodigalson (Nov 14, 2015)

> Film post seems to be the only market with little room for change. I don't think ProTools has nearly as much clout in the music world as it did even 5 years ago where cross-compatibility is more manageable between other applications.



I can't think of a single studio I've been in in the last 10 years from that wasn't running Pro Tools.


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## Anders Wall (Nov 14, 2015)

Bunford said:


> ...iLok's reputed huge unreliability and failures.


Have used iLoks since late 90's without any probs. whatsoever.
Just saying...

Best,
/Anders


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## chrysshawk (Nov 14, 2015)

Must admit the only joy Avid ever brought me was when I decided to not deal with them again and moved onto a Cubase/Live platform.

After all hardware and software was sold, I was finally able to build a system that was both good, fast, and stable - things which always failed with Avid. My greatest regret in music was to initially go with Avid, and my greatest relief was to get rid of them.


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## gsilbers (Nov 15, 2015)

WallofSound said:


> Have used iLoks since late 90's without any probs. whatsoever.
> Just saying...
> 
> Best,
> /Anders


there was a huge issue with iloks a little while back which is probably what he is reffering too. 

Also the fact that before ilok 2 all ilok software was cracked so basically the dongle was really worthless. 

now its just a dongle. no positives or negatives in my opinion. avid on the other hand...


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## gsilbers (Nov 15, 2015)

prodigalson said:


> I can't think of a single studio I've been in in the last 10 years from that wasn't running Pro Tools.



true. thats why i think they are so cocky with these new upgrades and wierd moves. 
well, also how bad avid is in red so as a company its has failed.... and failed hard. not sure why its still limping financially.


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## gsilbers (Nov 15, 2015)

dgburns said:


> not suggesting this is the slution,but always wondered why Avid did not go the route of dedicated hardware/software to get away from consumer OS's.


didnt radar go this route? 
i think with updates they can make more money than one system solutions.


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## Johnny (Nov 15, 2015)

kdm said:


> I got the same email today and laughed. I have PT 10HD and a PT 9 license and will never upgrade. Avid is grasping for income because they have run out of ideas for new features that would sell updates (and the DAW market for new customers probably isn't evolving in their favor anymore). That's why I think companies move to subscriptions - guaranteed income with little or no pressure to keep developing anything.



Exactly,

Subscriptions will be a huge issue in the future if we keep rolling this way:

Magazine Subscriptions ???
Car insurance ???
Health Insurance ???
Visa Payments ???
Line of Credit interest payments ???
Cell phone payments ???
Dollar Razor Clubs $$$
EW Composer Clouds $$$
Pro Tools Subscriptions ???? 
Star Bucks Coffee Subscriptions ??? (It's only a matter of time I'm sure...)

We'll definitely be redefining the phrase, "Work for a living!"


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## dtonthept (Nov 15, 2015)

Avid and Pro Tools could totally be as relevant in future studios as Studer, Otari, mci, etc. 

My career began at a time when nobody could imagine a studio without one of the above in there... 

And yes, the avid subscription model really is a result of accountants and shareholders meetings, nothing to do with blazing R&D, or a very thoughtful approach to what would be a fair and mutually beneficial deal, which is the balance Waves and Slate seem to have found. 

Again, with Waves and Slate, you can totally just buy the things outright!


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## Anders Wall (Nov 15, 2015)

gsilbers said:


> there was a huge issue with iloks a little while back which is probably what he is reffering too.
> 
> Also the fact that before ilok 2 all ilok software was cracked so basically the dongle was really worthless.
> 
> now its just a dongle. no positives or negatives in my opinion. avid on the other hand...


Ah, I see.
If you refer to the summer of 2013 ilok incident then yes they had some problems that where taken care of within days. I know that "within days" is a long time for professionals, but most of us also know not to jump the gun on software updates (unless you're beta testing). I would say that there are hardware companies that have had it's userbase hanging but a thread for a lot longer than PACE.

Never used cracked software, perhaps that is why all been fine here.

Best,
Anders


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## kitekrazy (Nov 15, 2015)

Next up Wave's WUP. Remember the huge thread at NSS?


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## Guy Rowland (Nov 15, 2015)

WallofSound said:


> Ah, I see.
> If you refer to the summer of 2013 ilok incident then yes they had some problems that where taken care of within days. I know that "within days" is a long time for professionals, but most of us also know not to jump the gun on software updates (unless you're beta testing). I would say that there are hardware companies that have had it's userbase hanging but a thread for a lot longer than PACE.
> 
> Never used cracked software, perhaps that is why all been fine here.
> ...



That's not really an accurate summary of what happened IMO. It was actually many weeks til the situation was resolved, and it had nothing to do with jumping the gun on updates. It happened when any new software OR any update of any kind on any plugin OR (I think, from memory) even launching the then new license manager. It scrambled permanent licenses. It almost took out entire post-houses. The only folks who escaped we're those who didn't attempt any purchase or even ran License Manager.

It was a hugely damaging incident. To this day, I can't trust ILok for any license that isn't permanent - I won't do theft and loss coverage for that reason. IMO the risk of moving to timed licenses where at some point you are forced to log in, given PACE's track record, is just too great. if I get any sniff of trouble, I once again revert to no new purchases, no update, no moving licenses or running License Manager.


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## Anders Wall (Nov 15, 2015)

Guy Rowland said:


> That's not really an accurate summary of what happened IMO. It was actually many weeks til the situation was resolved, and it had nothing to do with jumping the gun on updates. It happened when any new software OR any update of any kind on any plugin OR (I think, from memory) even launching the then new license manager. It scrambled permanent licenses. It almost took out entire post-houses. The only folks who escaped we're those who didn't attempt any purchase or even ran License Manager.
> 
> It was a hugely damaging incident. To this day, I can't trust ILok for any license that isn't permanent - I won't do theft and loss coverage for that reason. IMO the risk of moving to timed licenses where at some point you are forced to log in, given PACE's track record, is just too great. if I get any sniff of trouble, I once again revert to no new purchases, no update, no moving licenses or running License Manager.


Right, well I guess the guys and gals @ the Swedish Broadcast corp didn't or haven't done any of the above and that I've been lucky.
I remember installing Ozone 5 in August 2013 totally unaware that there was a iLok crisis going on.
It was first after the actual registration I found out that there was trouble @ PECE.
So i guess I have a different picture, but I'm sorry to hear about all those post-houses.
Hope all is well today.

Best,
Anders


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## dgburns (Nov 17, 2015)

kitekrazy said:


> Next up Wave's WUP. Remember the huge thread at NSS?



the thing about WUP though is you can let it lapse and get back in when you really need to,so you can skip a few update cycles.Seems a little bit more reasonable.It seems to me mostly due to OS updates breaking the plugins.I think if Avid adopted the same approach,it might make more sense then what they are offering right now.
I've always thought of Mac OS updates as a really ugly way of sticking it to us because of the aggregate products we need to update along with it.Some dev's do a spectacular job of updating and not sticking it to us too badly.I find over time I tend to stick with the products that do a good job of finding a balance between keeping current and providing us with fair costs along the way.

but to be honest,I always found it satisfying being up to date.I'm going to rethink that going forward.


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## studioj (Nov 17, 2015)

Just to offer an alternative view ... I have upgraded to 12.3 HD and I am loving it. It is so great to finally see my favorite DAW begin to add some modern features. I don't mind the subscription system as long as they continue to roll out new features at a decent pace which seems to be their new MO. The subscription $ is a very small fraction of the revenue I make using this software. If its what they need to do to survive then so be it. If it doesn't work then they will change it of course. I'll still be making money using pro tools.

I think we will see a lot of great things from PT in 2016. 

On another note, if you are just doing music creation and are ok with a single video in a project at a time (and don't use Avid HD hardware or need more than 32 io), I don't think there is any reason to stick with HD currently. That could change though.


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## Daryl (Nov 17, 2015)

studioj said:


> On another note, if you are just doing music creation and are ok with a single video in a project at a time (and don't use Avid HD hardware or need more than 32 io), I don't think there is any reason to stick with HD currently. That could change though.


Except for the ludicrous track count limitation.

D


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## FriFlo (Nov 17, 2015)

studioj said:


> On another note, if you are just doing music creation and are ok with a single video in a project at a time (and don't use Avid HD hardware or need more than 32 io), I don't think there is any reason to stick with HD currently. That could change though.


If you do music creation and still use pro tools, I wonder what is wrong with you ...


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## Arbee (Nov 18, 2015)

FriFlo said:


> If you do music creation and still use pro tools, I wonder what is wrong with you ...


I've scanned this thread occasionally and shake my head at these first world problems. Get a grip guys, if you don't like it then don't buy it and don't use it. I must need my head examined but I really enjoy Pro Tools, just saying....


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## Daryl (Nov 18, 2015)

Arbee said:


> Get a grip guys, if you don't like it then don't buy it and don't use it. I must need my head examined but I really enjoy Pro Tools, just saying....


Of course its not quite as simple as that. I would quite happily do without Pro Tools, but then it would be a nightmare setting things up for recording, as pretty much all orchestral recording studios use Pro Tools. I've tried doing it without, and it's not worth thinking about. So I'll just continue working the way I do, and carry on b*tching about Avid, I think. 

D


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## JohnG (Nov 18, 2015)

Avid are making a strange business decision. By overplaying their hand with this hugely expensive subscription ploy, they are _inviting_ a competitor in the door. I think they risk strangling the goose here.



Arbee said:


> Get a grip guys, if you don't like it then don't buy it and don't use it.



It's not like that, Arbee. Some of those who are unhappy have already invested $10-20k in a Protools setup, not counting plugins and other add-ons. This new pricing affects these existing users, not just potential customers. If Cubase or Digital Performer or Logic pulled something similar what do you think the reaction would be?

Today (see how long this lasts) PT retains some advantages for musicians:

1. Engineers are used to Protools, so they can work fast on it and be confident that what they're doing is going to be successful;

2. Delivery is easier to studios, game companies, and advertising companies; and

3. It's still the least cumbersome zero-latency recording setup I've used.

While those are powerful advantages that will persist for some time, I agree with dtonthept, who wrote that it was once unthinkable not to have Otari, Studer etc. in your studio. How long before there's a realistic alternative to PT? 

Even the once-laughable audio in DAWs has been closing the gap. Two main things -- the power of an average computer no longer requires the DSP approach and the conversions in some DAWs has leapt ahead, so PT's advantage has narrowed substantially. On top of that, Digital Performer (and, I assume, others) allow the user to customise keyswitch combinations, so it is possible to tailor the audio editing in DP so it matches the key commands of Protools.


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## studioj (Nov 18, 2015)

ah yes the track count! forgot about that... I believe they have recently upped that quite a lot though and especially for instrument tracks... according to the chart both HD and vanilla allow 512 instrument tracks (and 512 MIDI tracks). but if you are needing more than 128 Audio tracks, HD it is. 

https://www.avid.com/US/products/pro-tools-software-comparison-table

I have used them all pretty much... was a Logic user for 12 years and DP before that...and I tested Cubase 7 for a run before deciding to run with PT11. I love staying in the same platform from start to finish as all my mixers use PT and all the musicians I collaborate with use PT. I use tools like plogue bidule and keyboard maestro to trick out my PT setup to the nth degree. Sure there are some MIDI things I miss about Logic and Cubase is very powerful here as well... but it does what I need and feels the most transparent between me and the music I'm creating. Not saying its right for everyone but I did due diligence in finding the right tool for me.

That being said Avid is most certainly TERRIBLE at communicating with its customers and their policies are often bizarre. Hoping to see the fog clear as software development picks up pace.


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## Daryl (Nov 18, 2015)

Yep, audio track count is not acceptable for any of our orchestral projects.

D


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## studioj (Nov 18, 2015)

JohnG said:


> 3. It's still the least cumbersome zero-latency recording setup I've used.



This.



JohnG said:


> Even the once-laughable audio in DAWs has been closing the gap. Two main things -- the power of an average computer no longer requires the DSP approach and the conversions in some DAWs has leapt ahead, so PT's advantage has narrowed substantially. On top of that, Digital Performer (and, I assume, others) allow the user to customise keyswitch combinations, so it is possible to tailor the audio editing in DP so it matches the key commands of Protools.



I would have thought this to be the case... but I can run a separate reverb for 26 stereo stems and my trash can mac pro won't even blink... leaves plenty of room for VI power... I can not do this running natively without a serious hit. So at least for me DSP is still very useful. and no latency DSP at that...


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## studioj (Nov 18, 2015)

Daryl said:


> Yep, audio track count is not acceptable for any of our orchestral projects.
> 
> D



Right, if you're tracking orchestras then you probably wouldn't even be ok with HD Native or HDX1... my live orch projects are frequently getting over 300 voices for which you need 2 HDX cards for. 

It is so nice though to just import the studio's record tracks right into my session with alt takes and any comps still in tact.


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## Daryl (Nov 18, 2015)

studioj said:


> Right, if you're tracking orchestras then you probably wouldn't even be ok with HD Native or HDX1... my live orch projects are frequently getting over 300 voices for which you need 2 HDX cards for.
> 
> It is so nice though to just import the studio's record tracks right into my session with alt takes and any comps still in tact.


We are still using PT10, with the Toolkit, for mixing. Don't need any Avid hardware. Usually around 200 or so tracks, although there are many more in the mixing template that we keep hidden. If we were mixing in 5.1 or above the track count would obviously be much higher though.

D


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## JohnG (Nov 19, 2015)

studioj said:


> a separate reverb for 26 stereo stems and my trash can mac pro won't even blink...



I assume it "won't even blink" when you use Pro Tools DSP? 

I hear where you are coming from, although I've never delivered 26 separate stems in a stereo-based project. In surround you could get there pretty fast.


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