# Mock-up question (esp woodwinds)



## FrozeN (Aug 7, 2005)

I read about a thread about ppl complaining quite some of the libs lacking 2nd violins... and this made me think of another matter.

Does anyone actually use 2 or even 3 libs to cover the woodwinds for a more "realistic" mock-up? I mean even you have the best WW lib, it still sounds strange that the 1st and 2nd (and 3rd) flutes sound exactly identical. Even you are using different velocity patches, they are still the same instrument and same player and same expression.

I don't own a lot of libs at the moment but planning to expand my collection soon. Just wondering about my strategy hehe if I should invest in this manner.

Or... was it just a stupid question that doesn't really bother at all and simply creating a system/RAM hog instead?  

I do think using different libs of identical instruments will prevent cancellation problems in unison passages though, right?

Thanks in advance for you comments and suggestions!


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## Frederick Russ (Aug 7, 2005)

Woodwinds- VSL. Stock oboe may be a bit disappointing though - VSL Horizon French Oboe is a better choice. 2nd violins - VSL chamber strings may be an option. 

In both cases the legato makes a huge difference. If you don't own VSL Opus One maybe take a closer look - you get a lot for the money imo.


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## Herman Witkam (Aug 7, 2005)

FrozeN said:


> I read about a thread about ppl complaining quite some of the libs lacking 2nd violins... and this made me think of another matter.
> 
> Does anyone actually use 2 or even 3 libs to cover the woodwinds for a more "realistic" mock-up? I mean even you have the best WW lib, it still sounds strange that the 1st and 2nd (and 3rd) flutes sound exactly identical. Even you are using different velocity patches, they are still the same instrument and same player and same expression.



I did that actually. Layered Vienna Giga Symphony, Xsample and Westgate woodwinds in these:

http://www.herman-witkam.com/prelude_a_le_banquet_des_souris.mp3 (http://www.herman-witkam.com/prelude_a_ ... souris.mp3)
http://www.herman-witkam.com/le_banquet_royale_des_Souris.mp3 (http://www.herman-witkam.com/le_banquet ... Souris.mp3)

I found that it adds liveness to the sounds.


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## FrozeN (Aug 8, 2005)

Frederick Russ said:


> Woodwinds- VSL. Stock oboe may be a bit disappointing though - VSL Horizon French Oboe is a better choice. 2nd violins - VSL chamber strings may be an option.
> 
> In both cases the legato makes a huge difference. If you don't own VSL Opus One maybe take a closer look - you get a lot for the money imo.



You bet Fred! 8) 

Opus 1 (maybe 2), French Oboe & Epic Horns are already on my shopping list! :wink: While the chamber Strings is under consideration too! hehe


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## FrozeN (Aug 8, 2005)

Herman Witkam said:


> I did that actually. Layered Vienna Giga Symphony, Xsample and Westgate woodwinds in these:
> 
> http://www.herman-witkam.com/prelude_a_le_banquet_des_souris.mp3 (http://www.herman-witkam.com/prelude_a_ ... souris.mp3)
> http://www.herman-witkam.com/le_banquet_royale_des_Souris.mp3 (http://www.herman-witkam.com/le_banquet ... Souris.mp3)
> ...


Thanks Herman for showing your compositions! In fact I love the brass sounds in the second piece! May I ask which lib are they from? :wink: 

What I have in mind is to get Opus 1 to be the first players (and French Oboe too of course!), and Westgate for the 2nd players while keeping my AO for the occassional 3rd players. Opus/French Oboe + Westgate got all the auxiliary instruments covered as well.

I just think of an example which sounds like what I will be working on. I don't have the score handy with me at the moment (not sure if it's ok to post it here either). It's the opening fugal phrases of the 2nd movement of Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms. I think it's a 5-part fugue for 3 flutes and 2 oboes. So it will be very exposed indentical instruments are playing together.


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## Dave Connor (Aug 8, 2005)

VSL does have a 1st and 2nd flute in the pro edition so perhaps they will expand the other instruments as well. If you want triple winds in unison they have the Wind Ensembles: 3 flutes, 3 Oboes, 3 Clarinets, 3 Bassoons.
I use Miroslav as my seconds along with VSL 1st Edition.

Checking the Stravinsky score I see 4 flutes, 1 Picc., and 2 oboes playing prior to the voices entering: beginning 2nd movement.

Dave Connor


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## Frederick Russ (Aug 8, 2005)

Dave Connor said:


> I use Miroslav as my seconds along with VSL 1st Edition.



Hi Dave - welcome to VI. That sounds intriguing for building ensembles. Got any examples? Miroslav came out with a new interface for an older lib so I've been wondering if there is stuff there that I can use.


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## Dave Connor (Aug 8, 2005)

Hi Frederick,

Thanks for the welcome. The Miroslav oboe is still one of the best out there. It has an elastic expressive quality. The bassoon also is quite good. The flute and clarinet are a notch below but still can be blended well. The Miroslav strings also blend well. The FF Trombones have a great bite that blend great with VSL. In fact because the samples don't have an in-your-face quality they're ideal for blending with other more robust samples.

I will soon have a very good example of this combination. Where does one post or should I just email you an Mp3?


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## Herman Witkam (Aug 8, 2005)

FrozeN said:


> Thanks Herman for showing your compositions! In fact I love the brass sounds in the second piece! May I ask which lib are they from? :wink:
> 
> What I have in mind is to get Opus 1 to be the first players (and French Oboe too of course!), and Westgate for the 2nd players while keeping my AO for the occassional 3rd players. Opus/French Oboe + Westgate got all the auxiliary instruments covered as well.



Thanks Franky. The brass is from Project SAM's Solo Sessions and their section brass libraries. www.projectsam.com

I think you can record just about any woodwind library as long as it doesn't have too much ambience in it and they are combined with some convolution reverb.


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## Frederick Russ (Aug 8, 2005)

Hey Dave - you can just post an example here. If its a piece you want reviewed, maybe the member's composition area would be better. Your call.


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## FrozeN (Aug 8, 2005)

Dave Connor said:


> VSL does have a 1st and 2nd flute in the pro edition so perhaps they will expand the other instruments as well. If you want triple winds in unison they have the Wind Ensembles: 3 flutes, 3 Oboes, 3 Clarinets, 3 Bassoons.
> I use Miroslav as my seconds along with VSL 1st Edition.
> 
> Checking the Stravinsky score I see 4 flutes, 1 Picc., and 2 oboes playing prior to the voices entering: beginning 2nd movement.
> Dave Connor


Hi Dave!

Unfornately the wind ensembles lib doesn't seem very flexible to me coz it gonna be an all-or-one situation. In fact, I found the 3 instruments blend too well in the recording, which isn't what I am looking for. I would rather have an edgy sound in the ensemble I build/use as most of my (classical/orchestral) music resembles Prokofiev and Bartok.

And yes you are right in the Stravinsky score too. Anyway I was trying to give an example of a passage written for a few identical instruments. :wink:

EDIT : maybe I could post a cue or two which I just wrote for a children's play too


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## Dave Connor (Aug 8, 2005)

Frederick,

I don't have a link but perhaps I can use a friend of mine's. The piece I'm refering too is about to be mixed and mastered and then officially posted so I'll wait to see if that's sooner or later before I post an older version.

Frozen,

Definitly get the Opus 1 (or 1+2) package because the quality and behavior of the performance legato winds et.al., is amazing. Dan Dean solo winds are quite good and would probably suffice. Your task is to find at least 3 good winds in each group: fl, ob, clr, bs. This may require drawing from several libraries. I would start with VSL, Dan Dean, Miroslav. I'm not familiar with EWQL gold etc but those are probably pretty good except for built in reverb causing mixing issues.

DC


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## FrozeN (Aug 8, 2005)

Herman Witkam said:


> I think you can record just about any woodwind library as long as it doesn't have too much ambience in it and they are combined with some convolution reverb.


That's a good point and thanks! :wink: 

As like the post I replied Dave above, it's odd I know, I would go for libs that does NOT blend too well (in timbre, not ambience) instead, as it will fit my musical style more, a la Prokofiev, Bartok or even Mahler in his late years (Sym #9 & 10).

On a side note..... maybe that's the reason why people NEVER EVER commissioned me to write incidental music for a romance play! LOL :lol: 

I just finished a children's play, sort of a double bill, an ancient Chinese ghost story vs Andersen's The Red Shoes.... lucky for me, eerie music fits both stories, hehe. I guess I will post a few cues of them to share with you, don't expect quality though hehe as I made them mostly with KH Virtuoso Strings and AO stuff.


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## FrozeN (Aug 8, 2005)

Dave Connor said:


> Definitly get the Opus 1 (or 1+2) package because the quality and behavior of the performance legato winds et.al., is amazing. Dan Dean solo winds are quite good and would probably suffice. Your task is to find at least 3 good winds in each group: fl, ob, clr, bs. This may require drawing from several libraries. I would start with VSL, Dan Dean, Miroslav. I'm not familiar with EWQL gold etc but those are probably pretty good except for built in reverb causing mixing issues.
> DC


Yup, getting the Opus bundle is my plan already and I simply couldn't wait! 8) 
Actually I am struggling between Westgate and Dan Dean. WG is certainly cheaper but I heard about you can't really do fast running passages well with it. Dan Dean is good, I like the sounds better than WG, only it has very limited articulations. And woodwind trills is something I am so obssessed!f7c0e79


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Aug 15, 2005)

Dan Dean, Westgate, VSL Opus 1 and still some AO here for the woodwinds. And all in mono of course, for reducing the memory footprint and for better positioning. I mix the WW's into two virtual "rows" (2 stereo channels) like they are typically seated, to which I add different early reflections with TrueVerb. And finally of course a good true stereo IR reverb for the overall ambience.


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## Herman Witkam (Aug 15, 2005)

All in mono? Did you select one of the channels every time or did you merge them together? Xsample has mono versions provided of course.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Aug 15, 2005)

Herman Witkam said:


> All in mono? Did you select one of the channels every time or did you merge them together? Xsample has mono versions provided of course.



Can't remember actually, I think I mixed L and R without noticable problems. I really prefer mono woodwinds and mono solo brass. Stereo versions MUST be reduced in width, otherwise you get a ridiculous (and overlapping) dstribution of all the instruments' stereo images. If you'd record a flute from a distance of 10-14 meter (orchestral setup) there would be hardly any stereo information, apart from ER's and ambience.


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## Herman Witkam (Aug 15, 2005)

Peter Roos said:


> Can't remember actually, I think I mixed L and R without noticable problems. I really prefer mono woodwinds and mono solo brass. Stereo versions MUST be reduced in width, otherwise you get a ridiculous (and overlapping) dstribution of all the instruments' stereo images. If you'd record a flute from a distance of 10-14 meter (orchestral setup) there would be hardly any stereo information, apart from ER's and ambience.



Yeah - that's a good reason to consider mono instruments. Personally I just limit the image width on those instruments, because I want to keep the full sound of the stereo recording.


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## FrozeN (Aug 15, 2005)

I have a rather OT and stupid question to ask!  

Should I be ordering VSL libs from, say, MTLC instead of from VSL directly as I am living in Hong Kong? I can't find a way I can order directly from VSL in USD... it seems I can only order them in Euros.

It's a bit confusing at the VSL website too... it doesn't say if it provides free shipping and I can't find anywhere it states how much would it add for international shipment. hehe

Thanks!


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## gamalataki (Aug 15, 2005)

*Stereo Or Mono*



Herman Witkam said:


> Peter Roos said:
> 
> 
> > Can't remember actually, I think I mixed L and R without noticable problems. I really prefer mono woodwinds and mono solo brass. Stereo versions MUST be reduced in width, otherwise you get a ridiculous (and overlapping) dstribution of all the instruments' stereo images. If you'd record a flute from a distance of 10-14 meter (orchestral setup) there would be hardly any stereo information, apart from ER's and ambience.
> ...



I don't mean to hijack here, but I'd like to get some more opinions on this, since this hits me right where I'm currently living. In the past I've always bounced all my MIDI tracks to stereo, but I sometimes get overwhelmed when it comes to mixing. Recently I've been experimenting with bouncing most tracks to mono, except for piano, some section instruments and some big boomy percussion hits and fx tracks that have movement accross the stereo spectrum. What exactly am I losing by using mono audio tracks with solo instruments?? Herman, isn't limiting the image width actually lessening the full sound of the stereo recording anyway? How does this break down mathmatically (in non math terms please)?? I would think that formulas would vary depending of wheather you're mixing 5 instruments (all stereo?) or 50? Any guidance, rules or personal experiences would be appreciated. 
Thanks,


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## Herman Witkam (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: Stereo Or Mono*



gamalataki said:


> Herman, isn't limiting the image width actually lessening the full sound of the stereo recording anyway? How does this break down mathmatically (in non math terms please)?? I would think that formulas would vary depending of wheather you're mixing 5 instruments (all stereo?) or 50? Any guidance, rules or personal experiences would be appreciated.
> Thanks,



Well, when limiting the image there's some control over the width, so you could select 5 or 10%, being a bit wider than mono.

Of course the way this is applied depends on the number of instruments used in a mix. But don't forget that besides panorama placement there is also frequency placement. Space in the mix can be created using EQ to cut some frequencies out of a single instrument.

Another issue when converting instruments to mono is phasing. Some recordings have phasing on them because of incorrect microphone placement, which becomes much clearer when the two channels are mixed together to a mono source, or placed narrower together in a mix.


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## gamalataki (Aug 16, 2005)

*Re: Stereo Or Mono*



Herman Witkam said:


> Well, when limiting the image there's some control over the width, so you could select 5 or 10%, being a bit wider than mono.
> 
> Of course the way this is applied depends on the number of instruments used in a mix. But don't forget that besides panorama placement there is also frequency placement. Space in the mix can be created using EQ to cut some frequencies out of a single instrument.
> 
> Another issue when converting instruments to mono is phasing. Some recordings have phasing on them because of incorrect microphone placement, which becomes much clearer when the two channels are mixed together to a mono source, or placed narrower together in a mix.



Good points. I do sometimes forget to scoop out or boost certain frequencies so a track will sit better in a mix and not fight other tracks. Good tip on the phasing correction too.


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