# 5 DAWs and I don't like any of them



## noiseboyuk (Jan 30, 2012)

I know - I'm thick, right?  

So here are my 5 DAWs - Sonar 8.5.3, Cubase 6, Pro Tools 9, Pyramix 7.1, Adobe Audition CS 5.5. Let's immediately discount Pyramix (which actually I do like but doesn't do midi) and Audition which also doesn't do midi. So, without hyperbole, that's 3 midi DAWs.

Pro Tools seems clunky as all hell. Also it can't really be customised at all with key bindings. When operating with tracks in collapsed mode, you get around 7 characters for your track names. That right there makes me hate it, and hellish to use - never mind RTAS performance etc etc. Strike out Pro Tools.

Sonar 8 no longer exists, replaced by X1 (which I see people say still isn't as stable as 8 ). I know it well, I can zip around it quickly. However it only has basic intergration with the Euphonix mixer, and I can't use it to access midi CCs. Also the metronone is stupidly buggy, of all things, and gets confused by time sig changes (I know, you couldn't make it up). Also no VST3.

So to Cubase, my newest kid on the block. I'm just swearing at constantly... of course I'm the new kid, but I've made a list of some of the things that really bug me.

1 - it treats CC1 via Quick Controls (and the Euphonix) as completely different data to CC1 via the modwheel. You can't combine them.

2 - if I double click a midi clip, I expect a window to open with the midi events nicely centered in the window. As it is, it shows you where you are NOW on the timeline (so there's probably no events), and may or may not be in the right vertical place to see the notes.

3 - If I go to a new track, arm record and them record but make a mistake, I then press undo. First time - and only the first time - I do this, not only does it delete the clip, it also disarms the track. Really irritating. Next time I do it (and I make a LOT of mistakes), it's fine.

4 - there might be a way to do this one and I haven't found it yet - is there a global disable record button? I sometimes seem to accidentally ADD a record track without realising it.

That lot is enough to make me miserable. In general it's the day to day routine stuff that makes or breaks a daw, not so much the clever bells and whistles. I don't think I've found my home yet. Sonar - maybe because I grew up with it and just know it's foibles better - feels closest, but the word on X1 is so poor I'm not tempted to upgrade.

So my options are to stick out Cubase, warts and all, or to sell it and look yet again. DP8 is probably my most realistic other option, but really know nothing about it. Anyone any tips or thoughts?


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## José Herring (Jan 30, 2012)

Here's a tip. Stick to Cubase and actually learn how to use it.

best,

José


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 30, 2012)

josejherring @ Mon Jan 30 said:


> Here's a tip. Stick to Cubase and actually learn how to use it.
> 
> best,
> 
> José



José, you're a great guy but that doesn't really help. Those specific areas that are driving me nuts? You getting those too or am I doing something wrong? Have spent hours with the manual on a hundred different points. I'm trying to evaluate if I'd be better off barking up a different tree, I've read other posts of people who've tried Cubase and just can't get on with it. I also tried 18 months ago and gave up. Of course plenty of A listers use Cubase so I know it can do the job, but its about finding something that works for each individual. No DAW is perfect, it's all about working around the quirks - I still haven't yet worked out which quirks I want to work around. 

Perhaps VI Control is the wrong place for this...


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## Jaap (Jan 30, 2012)

I just made the switch from Sonar X1 to Cubase 6 and I totally don't regret. Cubase has it weirdness but I think it is mostly and maybe that is also your problem, that it is new and that we both have been working so long with Sonar. However regarding your point 3, you can set that somewhere in preference. You can disable that if you click a track that it will enable record straight away. I am not behind my computer with cubase so don't know which exact setting, but it can be done.

The other problems I recognise as well, but I think it is mainly due to being a newbie when it comes to Cubase. I bought the Cubase learning videos from Groove 3 and they helped a lot! Was worth the investment.
Link: http://www.groove3.com/str/cubase-training/

I can recommend however that you only do the advanced ones. I also had the basic learning videos, but looking back, that didn't brought me so much new stuff, but in the advanced videos I really discovered some really neat tricks and had often the feeling like "aahhh that is where that freaking button is" etc


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## R. Soul (Jan 30, 2012)

1. Don't know.

2. Doesn't do that for me but not sure where to set that up I'm afraid.
Oh, unless you have like a 5 bar long event with just a few notes at bar 1 - but then you just crop the event, as there's no point in having such a long event if most of it is empty.

3. In preferences under 'project and mixer' you can set it to 'record enable on MIDI track'. Not sure why anyone would want it off. I've always had it enabled - you need to press record first anyway.

4. Again, not sure why that would be needed? 
You need tracks locked so that they can' be recorded on? If you accidently record on a track, ctrl +z has it removed faster than you can enable/disable record anyway. Seems to me to be a feature that has come along from old 2" tape days where you definitely did not want to record on top of something as it was then lost forever. 

Alternatively look into Studio One pro 2
http://studioone.presonus.com/v2/

or Ableton Live
http://www.ableton.com/

And Bitwig looks promising.
http://bitwig.com/bitwig_studio.php


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## IFM (Jan 30, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Mon Jan 30 said:


> 4 - there might be a way to do this one and I haven't found it yet - is there a global disable record button? I sometimes seem to accidentally ADD a record track without realising it.
> 
> So my options are to stick out Cubase, warts and all, or to sell it and look yet again. DP8 is probably my most realistic other option, but really know nothing about it. Anyone any tips or thoughts?



There is a preference to dsiable arming a track when selected this way if you are recording an audio track and click on a different one the original stays in record...I forget exactly what it is called.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 30, 2012)

Thanks all! Much appreciated.



R. Soul @ Mon Jan 30 said:


> 2. Doesn't do that for me but not sure where to set that up I'm afraid.
> Oh, unless you have like a 5 bar long event with just a few notes at bar 1 - but then you just crop the event, as there's no point in having such a long event if most of it is empty.



To me this might just happen after a couple of notes, not 5 bars. Record, stop, Control Z, channel disarms. Re-arm the channel, record, stop, Control Z, channel doesn't disarm.

Oh, while I think of it - is there a way to have clips start at the first actual note, not when you start recording? I'll probably get used to it, but lots of visual clutter at the moment.



R. Soul @ Mon Jan 30 said:


> 3. In preferences under 'project and mixer' you can set it to 'record enable on MIDI track'. Not sure why anyone would want it off. I've always had it enabled - you need to press record first anyway.



I have this on already - I think what happens is that I might accidentally have shift pressed when I select a new track, so I have multiple tracks selected. Point 4 relates to doing this deliberately or accidentally - if more than one track is selected, rather than hunting through all your tracks, a global "disarm" button wipes the slate quickly. [/quote]


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## nickhmusic (Jan 30, 2012)

Hey Guy,

Although I swear and throw things at my monitor and scream bloody murder at Cubase on many occasions - I've been a loyal user for years, and can say many positive things about it, particularly as because I've been with it for so long, I can't even begin to imagine the horror of starting from scratch with a new DAW.

What I've realised though, is you have to really learn it - and in doing that, you end up learning ways around things - appreciating the workflow - or simply adapting to some of the quirky ones that initially don't make any bloomin' sense.

My advice re: Quick Controls - it's an absolute utter shambles. Avoid it. I tried using it instead of entering controller data within the key editor, and had it set up with my Tascam US2400 - and it just simply didn't correspond with anything that was going on inside that midi track, nor was it stable or consistent with CCs. Nothing actually worked for me with QC - other than using it for manual quick on/off's for things like Auto Arranger in LASS, or to turn the pedal noise down in the Emotional Piano.

I spoke to several people about this and even technical support - a little bit like VST Expression - I think it wasn't quite thought through enough.

I will say though - as far as midi is concerned, in my experience Cubase really is very reliable - if you take into account the few annoying quirks it has.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 30, 2012)

Hmm, thanks Nick, sorta not what I want to hear, of course! If I'm abandoning Quick Controls - which is the main reason for moving to Cubase I guess - I'm sorely tempted to go back to Sonar for now until there is a way for the Euphonix to control CCs reliably. At least I know the quirks there and can work round them. Gives me problems controlling LASS 2 though.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 30, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Mon Jan 30 said:


> josejherring @ Mon Jan 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Here's a tip. Stick to Cubase and actually learn how to use it.
> ...



Guy, the best money you will ever spend is to hire a guy near you who knows the app well and have him come over for a few hours. It will save you countless hours of aggravation, as my Logic clients will tell you I saved them

When Craig Sharmat switched from DP to Logic he worked with it for a couple of months and still had a little confusion and a sense that he was not using it as efficiently as it could be used. I came over for a few hours. He said, "You've just changed my life."


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## nickhmusic (Jan 30, 2012)

which Euphonix are you using - I'll have a geeky dig around if you like?


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## Patrick de Caumette (Jan 30, 2012)

josejherring @ Mon Jan 30 said:


> Here's a tip. Stick to Cubase and actually learn how to use it.
> 
> best,
> 
> José



+1


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 30, 2012)

Jay - good idea, and I do know the man! (if he answers the damn phone...) I think I should have an idea after that if I want to persevere or switch.

Nick - it's the MC Mix.

Patrick - what I said to José!


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## Dan Selby (Jan 30, 2012)

Guy, you're obviously frustrated so sympathies for that. To a degree, though, I do agree with Jose. Not so much that you need to read the manual but more accept that your workflow will probably have to adapt to the tool a bit, you'll need time to work out the ways of working with it that suit you and that you are going to be slower and a bit frustrated for a while. All those automatic habits of key combinations and fast pro moves that you've built up over years with Sonar and your fingers jump to etc. I would think it's worth sticking it out, though - if nothing else, the VST expression stuff makes *such* a workflow difference for orchestral stuff, IMO.

Specifically, though:



noiseboyuk @ Mon Jan 30 said:


> 1 - it treats CC1 via Quick Controls (and the Euphonix) as completely different data to CC1 via the modwheel. You can't combine them.



As I said elsewhere, Quick Controls *are* hardwired to the Cubase automation system. So, either don't use your Euphonix for CC1 or do use it and don't use your keyboard mod wheel. But you just need to make a choice on that and accept that if you use the Euphonix then you are going to be editing CC1 data is in the project window, not the key editor. I wouldn't like this so I would use mod wheel for CC1. Is it really such a big deal to be able to have a motorised fader track CC1 data? 



noiseboyuk @ Mon Jan 30 said:


> 2 - if I double click a midi clip, I expect a window to open with the midi events nicely centered in the window. As it is, it shows you where you are NOW on the timeline (so there's probably no events), and may or may not be in the right vertical place to see the notes.



I really don't quite see what's happening here. It could be that you've got something set up not quite right or it could also be that the behaviour is just different to Sonar and you'll adjust. I've used Cubendo since forever and have never been aware of what you are talking about. Also, there are commands (and you can set up keyboard shortcuts) for things like jumping the song position to the first event. If it really bothererd you, you could create a macro (and assign it to a key) to open the key editor and move the song position to the first note in the opened part. Might help you.



noiseboyuk @ Mon Jan 30 said:


> 3 - If I go to a new track, arm record and them record but make a mistake, I then press undo. First time - and only the first time - I do this, not only does it delete the clip, it also disarms the track. Really irritating. Next time I do it (and I make a LOT of mistakes), it's fine.



Don't know why you've got it set up like this - is there a specific reason why you *want* to have to manually arm a track before you start recording? I have it set so that the selected track always is armed and I only manually arm other tracks if I want to record on multiple tracks at once. I've never seen this behaviour.



noiseboyuk @ Mon Jan 30 said:


> 4 - there might be a way to do this one and I haven't found it yet - is there a global disable record button? I sometimes seem to accidentally ADD a record track without realising it.



Again, I don't follow this at all - what are you doing exactly and what's happening?

Cheers,

Dan


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 30, 2012)

Hi Dan - the issue is really - do I perservere knowing that it won't do things I do want, figuring it's the best available current option? That's why I don't take too kindly to the simple "just learn how to use Cubase" comments (which is absolutely not like your response!)

VST expression I've already battled with for a while, it looks promising but it still isn't 100% reliable for me as far as I can tell. For example, yesterday I started from before an expression, and it didn't switch. I did it repeatedly and it didn't switch.... until I moved the expression in the key editor slightly. Then - bingo, it "woke up". Now maybe something else was going on there, but almost everything right now seems flaky - Quick Controls (as as already been discussed) seems flaky, VST expression seems flaky and even the mundane chores as listed here. Now absolutely I could be doing 100 things wrong here... and that's what this thread is about really. Already I've been advised to forget Quick Controls, which was my reason to switch to Cubase in the first place, and as per our earlier dialogue with the cc1 issue I have an either / or situation which isn't desireable. I know it might sound OTT, but automating cc1 was a big deal in this switch to Cubase plan - I like to play a performance with the modwheel, but if I need to just fix a bit having an automated fader would be perfect. Only - it won't work.

My big issue therefore is... for me, at what point to the negatives outweigh the positives?



Dan Selby @ Mon Jan 30 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Mon Jan 30 said:
> 
> 
> > 2 - if I double click a midi clip, I expect a window to open with the midi events nicely centered in the window. As it is, it shows you where you are NOW on the timeline (so there's probably no events), and may or may not be in the right vertical place to see the notes.
> ...



Just to clarify with an example - suppose I have stopped playback and the cursor reverted to bar 17 (going back to the start position I like - that's fine). I stopped because on bar 23 I heard something I want to change on the trumpets. I see the trumpet clip in the timeline, I just need to end the note earlier so I double click to open the key editor. It does so. However, what I expect to see is that midi part in bar 23, with the display centered around it. However, it doesn't seem to work like that. It opens at bar 17, the position of the play head, and there are no trumpets to be found. Often it seems to have zoomed into an area of the display where there are no notes either.

So I don't need to jump to the play position, I just want to open what I click, in the place where I click it. Is that crazy talk? Can it do this?



Dan Selby @ Mon Jan 30 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Mon Jan 30 said:
> 
> 
> > 3 - If I go to a new track, arm record and them record but make a mistake, I then press undo. First time - and only the first time - I do this, not only does it delete the clip, it also disarms the track. Really irritating. Next time I do it (and I make a LOT of mistakes), it's fine.
> ...



Again, to clarify - the arming happens automatically, that's fine. I click a new track, and it auto-arms. Great. Record, stop, control z, track disarms.



Dan Selby @ Mon Jan 30 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Mon Jan 30 said:
> 
> 
> > 4 - there might be a way to do this one and I haven't found it yet - is there a global disable record button? I sometimes seem to accidentally ADD a record track without realising it.
> ...



If I shift click a new track (either intentionally or in error), two tracks are armed - fine. Now it could be that those two tracks are 200 tracks apart! It's tedious to have to scroll up and down to see where the problem is, it's useful to have a global catch all "disarm all tracks from record" (a la Sonar!)


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## Dan Selby (Jan 30, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Mon Jan 30 said:


> 2 - if I double click a midi clip, I expect a window to open with the midi events nicely centered in the window. As it is, it shows you where you are NOW on the timeline (so there's probably no events), and may or may not be in the right vertical place to see the notes.



Okay. Didn't have Cubase open earlier but have checked this and am definitely not seeing this behaviour. Just to be clear, when you say "midi clip" you are talking about a midi part in the project window? And you're talking about not seeing the notes in the key editor? If so then not here - If my song position is way outside the boundaries of a midi part and I double click that part then I DO see the notes in the part. Only caveat is if you are talking about a really long part (say 50 bars) and you only have notes in the first few bars. If your song position is at bar 49 then, when you double click you will see the song position on screen and probably no notes. If your song position is at bar 51, however, when you double click the part you see the midi notes. This is normal behaviour. I (most people?) are not going to have long midi parts that are largely empty.


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## ed buller (Jan 30, 2012)

Just switched to cubase ( for midi ) and love it. As always the manual could be better but it really is the best i think.

e


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## Dan Selby (Jan 30, 2012)

VST expression really isn't flaky here anymore so I'm not sure what you're seeing. Are your using directions or attributes (I use Directions, always)?

The Quick Controls I really don't use (other than as a scratchpad as I described elsewhere) but I do remember they were not great when I did try them back in Cubase 5. The implementation may be good now, I don't know, but as I said they are tied in to the automation system so if you bought Cubase on the premise that you would be able to use your Eucphonix to write CC1 and have the fader chase AND edit it in the key editor AND use your mod wheel too then I can understand that you are fed up to find you can't (and probably wished you'd confirmed before purchase?) (though can you do this in any other DAW either?)



> Just to clarify with an example - suppose I have stopped playback and the cursor reverted to bar 17 (going back to the start position I like - that's fine). I stopped because on bar 23 I heard something I want to change on the trumpets. I see the trumpet clip in the timeline, I just need to end the note earlier so I double click to open the key editor. It does so. However, what I expect to see is that midi part in bar 23, with the display centered around it. However, it doesn't seem to work like that. It opens at bar 17, the position of the play head, and there are no trumpets to be found. Often it seems to have zoomed into an area of the display where there are no notes either.
> 
> So I don't need to jump to the play position, I just want to open what I click, in the place where I click it. Is that crazy talk? Can it do this?



Okay. First, I have it set up so that the song position does not jump back when you stop. That's a setting in the preferences. Press stop and it stops, press stop again and it jumps back to where you started playback from. I also have it set so that it does NOT autoselect the parts under the playback cursor. If you double click on a part and the song position is inside that part it will open up, centred around the song position. So, if you are zoomed in fairly far and your song position is not where you want to be then, no, you aren't going to be looking at the notes you are interested in. I would think changing the behaviour of the song position on stop is going to fix this for you.



> Again, to clarify - the arming happens automatically, that's fine. I click a new track, and it auto-arms. Great. Record, stop, control z, track disarms.



Definitely not seeing that here. Just double checked with both a midi track and an audio track. Track stays armed when you ctrl-z.



> If I shift click a new track (either intentionally or in error), two tracks are armed - fine. Now it could be that those two tracks are 200 tracks apart! It's tedious to have to scroll up and down to see where the problem is, it's useful to have a global catch all "disarm all tracks from record" (a la Sonar!)



Why are you unintentionally shift-clicking two tracks 200 tracks apart? Not being argumentative, Guy, but I have *never* done this and *never* had a situation where I wished there were a global disarm record. Again, I suspect this is a result of you coming from Sonar where things work a little differently and you are used to them being that way. As I say, these DAWS are all incredibly powerful and sophisticated and also very flexible and customizable... but you still have to expect that you're going to have to learn new habits and workflows and also that some of the habits and workflows that you bring with you might actually f*ck you up until you unlearn them.


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## Dan Selby (Jan 30, 2012)

Actually, this might help you, Guy: if you manually record arm a track other than the one you have selected then, yes, it stays armed. However, if you "select" multiple tracks (by shift clicking or control clicking) all those tracks will get armed but when you select a different track they will all disarm. That will probably fix it for you - select multiple tracks, don't manually record arm them.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 30, 2012)

Thanks Ed and Dan again. I'll have another play around to see if I can nail things down any further. All my Expression Maps should be Direction, but maybe an Attribute slipped through the net. The jumping back on stop thing I actually like, that's how I had Sonar set up too.

As per Jay's advice, I think I'll get my Cubase-using friend around to see if there's anything weird about my setup or the way I'm using it. However, if the best advice is to avoid quick controls, I might well abandon Cubase until there's a new version out. Superior intergration with the Euphonix really was the main reason to shift DAWs in the first place, so if that's off the agenda I may as well stick to what I know for now and actually get some composing done!


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## Dan Selby (Jan 30, 2012)

Okay, but try out my suggestions (above) for 2. and 4. - I think you'll be a lot happier in the interim.


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## José Herring (Jan 30, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Mon Jan 30 said:


> josejherring @ Mon Jan 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Here's a tip. Stick to Cubase and actually learn how to use it.
> ...



It was really late, and your post reminded me of another knuckle head who came on here and bashed Cubase and in truth he just didn't know the first thing about Cubase. Turns out that it was his way of asking for help. Instead of saying, "I need help". He pointed out 10things that he thought where faults of Cubase, but only showed his lack of understanding.

All will say that, almost everything that you're thinking is "wrong" with Cubase is fixable. Except for a global record disarm. You can set it up so that you can record on multiple tracks and then when you click on a non armed track all the other tracks disarm.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 30, 2012)

Thanks for that, José! OK, I see what is happening in my case. If I click the actual record arm button, THAT stays armed regardless of any other single clicking, and you have to find it to disarm it. So that looks like a case of me getting used to clicking anywhere OTHER than the arm button to arm a track! That seems wildly illogical, but something that can be learned.

OK Dan, I've spent a good half hour just clicking around my midi parts on the timeline. I was wrong that it doesn't go to the timeline position, but it does go to some very strange places, hence my confusion.

I just found a part with only one midi note. The part starts at bar 54 (though I don't know why), the note is in bar 57, the play head at bar 33. Double clicking that part shows nothing - zip. Turns out it was zoomed in too high and too early to see the only note in it.

Now, that is the kind of thing that was driving me insane yesterday, a constant feeling of nothing being where it should be. Some parts are zoomed right in, some zoomed right out and offcentered. Often the first note is hard on the LH edge of the window, so you can't see if it is really the start of the note or if the window is zoomed in. There must be a logic to it, but I can't find it yet... with Sonar I was never aware of this stuff, I just click and there it is, it takes care of it in the background giving me what I want to see. Novice - yes of course. But that's the kind of thing I will always be doing - see a part, double click to edit it. I don't want it to be invisible when I get there, then I have to start hunting around with the scroll bars to find where the hell I am. 

And there's another thing. It could be just getting used to it, but I don't like how it treats overdubs. Each recording is a different part - fine. However, each part is treated separately in the key editor. If I overdub a final new note, I'd have to glue the parts together first (I guess) to edit them as one. Or - worse - if I have a pass for the keys and another for cc1, the cc1 is on top. I click it - and can't see any notes at all. They're hidden in the clip underneath. Again, it's another fussy step - with Sonar anything on the same track can be edited in the same window.

Now if I can find a logic for this stuff, learn behaviours like "never arm a track with the arm button", then of course I should be able to adjust. It's good to hear everyone is good with VST expressions at least - I have just caught a couple of rogue attributes so hopefully that's all that was.


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## José Herring (Jan 30, 2012)

You can set up a different record arming preference in the preference menu. Almost everything in Cubase is customizable.

José


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## reddognoyz (Jan 30, 2012)

DP8 will be coming out for Windows very shortly. I'd advise maybe DP8.02 or so.


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## Daryl (Jan 30, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Mon Jan 30 said:


> And there's another thing. It could be just getting used to it, but I don't like how it treats overdubs. Each recording is a different part - fine. However, each part is treated separately in the key editor. If I overdub a final new note, I'd have to glue the parts together first (I guess) to edit them as one. Or - worse - if I have a pass for the keys and another for cc1, the cc1 is on top. I click it - and can't see any notes at all. They're hidden in the clip underneath. Again, it's another fussy step - with Sonar anything on the same track can be edited in the same window.


I don't understand what you're trying to do. If you don't want all overdubs treated as different things, then set up Merge. If you do, and they are separate takes, set up lanes. If you want to see everything either open up the Key Editor by KC, with nothing selected, or just use Edit In Place.

D


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## dannthr (Jan 30, 2012)

I was a SONAR user for 14 years.

I've made the switch to Cubase after teaching it over the last year to my students and learning things about it that are great for what I do.


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## ed buller (Jan 30, 2012)

josejherring @ Mon Jan 30 said:


> You can set up a different record arming preference in the preference menu. Almost everything in Cubase is customizable.
> 
> José



in the edit window about 7 blocks along at the top is a tap you can select which lets you choose which overdub you are editing....very useful.

I would also recommend either buying a tutorial or buying a home visit from a cubase doctor.

ed


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 30, 2012)

Daryl and Ed - great tips, thanks. Neither as far as I can figure out can create what I'd ideally want - separate clips that you can edit together in the edit window, but I see I can merge when recording (which I'll probably get used to), or select any individual overlapping clip in the edit window.

I see heaps of customization which is great, but I must be approaching it all from a specific place that often isn't covered. For example, Jose, I can see the options for arming recordings, but I can't see anywhere to affect the actual red button behaviour. I'm getting a definite vibe here to persevere with Cubase as people generally seem to think its the best out there right now, but the clicking midi parts alone is a big barrier to me.

Right, to my local Cubase mate...


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## Dan Selby (Jan 30, 2012)

Guy: Cubase remembers how zoomed in or out you are. Thing to remember is that there are thousands of people using this professionally day in, day out and not screaming that notes in the editor aren't showing up where they expect them. This really is a case of it accepting that it's a bit different than Sonar and you working stuff out and then getting used to the differences. To quote myself:



> <snip>accept that your workflow will probably have to adapt to the tool a bit, you'll need time to work out the ways of working with it that suit you and that you are going to be slower and a bit frustrated for a while.


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## MichaelL (Jan 30, 2012)

reddognoyz @ Mon Jan 30 said:


> DP8 will be coming out for Windows very shortly. I'd advise maybe DP8.02 or so.




+1 

There's a reason why many DP users are fiercely loyal.

Performer has been around since @1985. I've owned every version. I tried Logic, briefly, and returned to DP. (even bought Jay's book)

Now that it's going to be 64 bit and available for windows, you may want to look into it.

You're a big fan of CineSamples. Ask Mike Patti why he's is a DP fan.

Cheers,

Michael


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## Dan Selby (Jan 30, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Mon Jan 30 said:


> Right, to my local Cubase mate...



Good idea and a good suggestion from Jay. You'll probably spend half the time slapping your forehead as you watch how he works with the program... and the other half with him slapping your forehead as you show him how you've been trying to work with it.


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## Daryl (Jan 30, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Mon Jan 30 said:


> Daryl and Ed - great tips, thanks. Neither as far as I can figure out can create what I'd ideally want - separate clips that you can edit together in the edit window, but I see I can merge when recording (which I'll probably get used to), or select any individual overlapping clip in the edit window.


Sorry, Guy, but I still don't understand where the problem is. You can have separate clips. You can edit the all together by Opening the Key Editor for the track with nothing selected or by using Edit In Place. What am I missing?

D


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 30, 2012)

Daryl @ Mon Jan 30 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Mon Jan 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Daryl and Ed - great tips, thanks. Neither as far as I can figure out can create what I'd ideally want - separate clips that you can edit together in the edit window, but I see I can merge when recording (which I'll probably get used to), or select any individual overlapping clip in the edit window.
> ...



Sorry for missing this, really appreciate EVERYONE's suggestions here, it's hard to keep up! OK, Edit in Place I'm not keen on as it robs all the vertical real estate. Key Editor on the track with nothing selected looks much more useful - but at the risk of trying patience, it would seem not so intuitive to use (as opposed to "see a clip, edit a clip"). It's also brought to my attention that double clicking a clip opens a key edit new window, rather than replacing the existing one, I'll do another manual trawl to see if there's a way of avoiding that. 

Cubase remembering how zoomed in you are - on each clip? If so, why would it remember that I didn't have the event in the window at all?

In general, as I've said from the beginning, of course there are pros using Cubase perfectly happily - as there are Logic, DP etc. And you'll find people saying they hate Logic who love Cubase, and vice versa. Everything has quirks and annoyances - we just get used to what we know, and our own preferences lean us in a certain direction as opposed to another. Clearly the way forward here for me is to get my mate round to see if its a case of slapping foreheads or fundamentally if the workflow isn't appealing to me. The Euphonix issue is a serious dent in my motivation to make it work, but I appreciate I have to give it more of a fair hearing.

As to DP - definitely interested, but I'd definitely want to wait for a few versions to pass through before going near it!


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## ed buller (Jan 30, 2012)

Ok Try this for a second

record a bit of midi at bars 5,15,23,32

create separate little boxes for them so it's not a joined up track ( use the scissors ). click on the first one. Zoom in so everything looks tasty and in your face. ( click and dragging in the ruler at the top zooms in and out ) then go to your second segment and do the same..likewise the next two.

when you edit segment one agin it should be as you left it

e


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 30, 2012)

Will do, Ed - I'll post back here with what I find in a couple of days, cheers.


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## Daryl (Jan 30, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Mon Jan 30 said:


> OK, Edit in Place I'm not keen on as it robs all the vertical real estate.


Yes, but opening up any Editor covers up your project with another window, so surely that's worse?

Personally I tend not to use Edit In Place much, because all my controller lane Presets are not available by KC, whereas they are in the key Editor, but then again I have none of your issues with the Key Editor, because I never have multiple clips unless I'm doing multiple takes of a performance.

D


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 30, 2012)

Daryl @ Mon Jan 30 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Mon Jan 30 said:
> 
> 
> > OK, Edit in Place I'm not keen on as it robs all the vertical real estate.
> ...



Not with three monitors!


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## Daryl (Jan 30, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Tue Jan 31 said:


> Daryl @ Mon Jan 30 said:
> 
> 
> > noiseboyuk @ Mon Jan 30 said:
> ...


Ah I see. I don't work like that, because by the time I've taken my mouse to the other monitor I could have done the edit and closed the window. :wink: 

I think your best bet is to think about why you want all the clips as separate entities. I think that will decide your workflow.

D


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## NYC Composer (Jan 30, 2012)

Guy, have you posted on the steinberg.net/cubase6 forums? 

There are some obnoxious meatheads there, but also a number of kindly souls who have used Cubase for eons and are happy to help.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 30, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Tue Jan 31 said:


> Guy, have you posted on the steinberg.net/cubase6 forums?
> 
> There are some obnoxious meatheads there, but also a number of kindly souls who have used Cubase for eons and are happy to help.



I have a thread on the cc1 issue there which is now 10 days old, complete with simple reproducible steps - 4 bumps and only one early contribution from anyone (and they wanted to hijack the thread for something else!). In general I've not had great luck with that forum.

Since I also wanted to discuss other DAWs, it felt like VI-C would be more appropriate.


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## wst3 (Jan 31, 2012)

just a quick note from the one person that tried switching from Sonar to Cubase, and went back (all in the interest of balance, of course!!)

I've been using Cakewalk sequencers as my primary DAW since CWPA6 (I think, that was a while ago). I've become, if not fluent, at least comfortable with the processes required to take a musical idea and commit it to tape.

Over the years I've tried probably all the competition. Of the bunch I'd say DP is probably the one I'd add to my arsenal, and now that it is being ported I might!

All of the other tools work differently, and differently than Sonar. That's pretty much to be expected, desired even. I keep thinking that someone is going to write a DAW that thinks/works exactly like I do. It hasn't happened yet.

When I measure the pain of learning a new toolset over the advantages I find the equation always seems to lean towards lazy - I mean sticking with what I know.

I don't use a Euphonix control surface, so that's not a deal breaker for me, nor do I use VST3 stuff, thought the expression thing is awfully inviting. So there are no clear issues where Cubase would be a better choice for me... today.

If it comes to pass that Cubase offers me something I can not get from Sonar I'll change. I'll likely be grumpy about it, but I'll change.

Heck, in terms of working with MIDI data only I still haven't used a sequencer that holds a candle to Bars&Pipes Professional - of course that ran on a machine that no longer exists, so it's not like it's a viable option. Oh well. See... I told you I get grumpy where change is involved<G>!

With respect to the whole X1 re-invention. At first I was quite frustrated, but I spent a week just digging around, experimenting, learning a little.

I've reached the point where I work just as quickly, if not a little more quickly now with X1 than I did with 8.5.1. I have two stumbling blocks I can't seem to get past, and I get annoyed, but it really is a case of me refusing to learn something<G>!

As an example, the steps required to edit envelopes were completely dismantled and moved, and I still find myself right clicking hoping to edit an envelope. Then I go and click on the drop down box and I'm back on track.

The other example is having ALL preferences in one place. You'd think (I'd think anyway) that this would be a major step forward, and it is, but it wasn't like this for so long that I'm still used to looking for things where they used to be.

There are also things I just don't use. I find the whole multi-dock to be too cumbersome, so I don't bother with it.

On the other hand, the unified browser took me about two minutes to appreciate, and maybe five minutes to figure out. It's a big plus.

I should also note that I do 90% of my "composition" work in Finale. The staff tools in every major sequencer are just no match for Finale. The newest Sonar feature (XML import and export) are going to make this a whole lot better process, once I figure them out<G>! 

Anyway, my point is that if a sequencer ever really integrated standard notation that would be a reason to switch, but I think the concept of a written language to describe a musical performance is so far afield from the concept of a language that captures the actual events of a musical performance that this is still many years away. (Not that I haven't spent a couple of hours trying to write a parser for MusicXML!)

So, finally trying to get to my point - if you are really accustomed to Sonar 8.5.3, you might want to take a really close look at X1. On the other hand perhaps you aren't as lazy as I am<G>!


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 31, 2012)

Thanks for that post Bill - very much in the spirit in the spirit of what I intended! The general thrust so far has been "Cubase is best, just get used to it", and although I don't reject that view, I'm not yet wholly convinced by it either. Right now, the only solid advantage to Cubase seems to be VST expression maps, and even there I'm not 100% sold yet (though I understand they are very popular).

Bill, you mentioned the unified browser in X1. Is there any other tangible benefits to X1 over 8.5? Any disadvantages?


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## wst3 (Jan 31, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Tue Jan 31 said:


> Bill, you mentioned the unified browser in X1. Is there any other tangible benefits to X1 over 8.5? Any disadvantages?



There are a LOT of changes to the menus and key bindings. Overall I think they did a great job of organizing commands, but it is a disadvantage at first, as you spend time finding stuff. The advantage is that it does trim down time to do stuff.

While I use it in a non-standard way, I think the AudioSnap works better now. I will play a part in without a click, and then map the beats in my recording to the timeline, it is not a one-click thing yet, but it's better.

I also found that I was able to use more audio tracks, so there has been some enhancement or another to the audio engine. Sadly I don't get the same boost with virtual instruments.

Overall I'm glad I made the change, even if I waited almost a year to do so<G>!

If you have specific questions just holler...


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 31, 2012)

Thanks again, Bill. Here's one - is there anything remotely like the input transformer in Cubase? (yes I forgot that other advantage!) Something to map cc1 to something else at input stage.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 31, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uggVzpjXAjY


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 31, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Wed Feb 01 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uggVzpjXAjY



(no, I mean like that but in Sonar X1)


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## NYC Composer (Jan 31, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Tue Jan 31 said:


> NYC Composer @ Wed Feb 01 said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uggVzpjXAjY
> ...



Doh!


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## wst3 (Jan 31, 2012)

there are several ways to process incoming MIDI data, and a handful of ways to process MIDI data that's been recorded. I'm not the best person to ask about that cause I sorta gave up getting that tricky when I moved from Bars&Pipes (where it was trivial) to CWPA.

Mostly I use third party MFX plug-ins, and you probably need quite a few to do everything that the Cubase Input Transformer does. Not a bad thing, but more work!

In place of the MIDI tricks I've been spending quite a bit of time with Orange Tree Mind Control and Cinesamples CineMap. These do the same sorts of things, but they operate - at least in my mind - at the patch/instrument level, which at the moment appeals to me.

But see, now you've gone and done it... I'm curious about (a) why did I used to do all that MIDI processing, and (b) should I be doing it again/still?

So now I guess I'm going to spend some time playing with it!

If you are really into this sort of thing you might want to look at a program called KeyKit - it's geared more towards academic algorithmic composition, but you can do some amazing things with it.

Another tool which can do all sorts of MIDI data manipulation is Infinity from Sound Quest. I still have a bunch of scripts I assembled in Infinity to clean up incoming MIDI guitar data... they worked quite well.

And then there is Max - which is another really cool tool, or the open source PureData, which is very similar.

Lots of tools - I suppose it depends a lot on how tightly integrated you want them to be. I used to prefer lots of little tools, but I have to confess, integrated tool sets are not all bad!


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## Dan Selby (Feb 1, 2012)

Really helpful post(s), Bill.

All of these DAWs are seriously powerful and well evolved pieces of software at this stage and it's quite clear that you can do what we do very effectively in any of them. Now, *for me* to get me to switch from Cubendo would take there to be a *really* compelling new feature in one of the other DAWs. And that's NOT because I think Cubase is much superior, Guy, (I really don't know the alternatives well enough to hold a view) but rather that the learning curve, when you've used a particular DAW for years, is just too daunting for me - I have enough pulls on my time and productivity as it is.

Having said that, *for me* VST expression really has been such a compelling and game changing feature so, now, unless one of the other DAWs developed an equivalent then I don't think I'd even consider switching.

Guy: if you haven't been won over by VST expression with something like LASS and there isn't another really compelling reason to move then, given your Sonar background, I would agree with Bill and definitely be looking at X1.


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 1, 2012)

Thanks again, Bill. It started me on a search for a simple mfx plugin that would do basic mapping, but I'm kinda struggling. I found one that looked perfect - http://www.tencrazy.com/gadgets/mfx/ midi CC map, but I can't make it work in 64 bit. It would be great if it was mfx, so much simpler than having a vst effect.

My dream product would be a "choose Midi CC in" button, then a "choose midi CC out", with 8 basic presets for different modes, and nothing else!


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 1, 2012)

ed buller @ Mon Jan 30 said:


> Ok Try this for a second
> 
> record a bit of midi at bars 5,15,23,32
> 
> ...



Finally had another play. OK, this is a terrific example of what I don't like.

So I did this - 4 separate clips (all separate recordings actually, if that matters). Double clicked 1 - it was zoomed very far out. Corrected. 2, 3, and 4 all ok. Then I zoom into 1 to work on a bit. Now all the others are also zoomed in. In the case of clip 4 I deliberately left the first couple of bars empty. So when I click on clip 4, having worked on a detail in clip 1, I can't see a thing.

It gets worse. Try this one. On track 2 I record 1 clip at bar 9, and another at bar 20 (to test more Eucon stuff). Stop. Click 1 - looks ok. Click 2 - looks ok. I play clip 2, and click 1 WHILE PLAYING. Nothing. Nada. I stop the transport on bar 21, thinking "oh it won't let me doing it while playing". Click clip 1. Nada. Nothing. No amount of single double or triple clicking will get that key editor before bar 20, until I double click a different clip (or the one it is already in). That wakes it up, and now I can double click clip 1. This happens if the other clip is on a different track too, if it is outside the region currently zoomed in on the key editor (I think that's the logic). This is reproducible _if you initially click another clip outside the key editors range while playing_ - it gets stuck in this mode even when stopped until a different clip is selected. If I didn't know better, this feels for all the world like a bug.

These isolated sessions just analysing behaviour are really putting me off Cubase. In the heat of battle its very frustrating, but I assume I have a lot of new things to learn which I don't like. But even under test conditions, none of this makes any sense to me at all. I don't know if I work in such a perculiar way that no-one else encounters this stuff and I just can't unlearn it, but it's not working for me. Like I say, in Sonar I've never even thought about this stuff. I double click on something, and there it is - end of.

And it's gonna take me AGES to learn not to press the record icon when I'm switching to a new track. My brain tells me I want to record, I find the track I want - "ah ha, there's the big *RED TARGET*  for the right track, that must be what I want" - oh no, there it goes again, arming two tracks at once. Urgh.


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## Daryl (Feb 1, 2012)

Guy, I'm sure your explanation makes sense to you, but I really can't follow it. Is there any chance of making a small video illustrating your problems. It is obviously a big deal to you, but I just don't get it. Sorry. :oops: 

Regarding record enabling tracks and other things, I think you'll find that there is a great deal of muscle memory to overcome and you may never get it. That shouldn't stop you trying though. :wink: 

D


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 1, 2012)

I should get a video recording thing set up at some point I guess... another on the long list of things to do!

I know it's a nightmare to describe in text, but hopefully someone can follow it and see if it's across the board. If I have any will to live left, I'll try to rewrite it as bullet points and put it on the Cubase forum. I'm on 6.0.5.


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## wst3 (Feb 1, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Wed Feb 01 said:


> Thanks again, Bill. It started me on a search for a simple mfx plugin that would do basic mapping, but I'm kinda struggling. I found one that looked perfect - http://www.tencrazy.com/gadgets/mfx/ midi CC map, but I can't make it work in 64 bit. It would be great if it was mfx, so much simpler than having a vst effect.
> 
> My dream product would be a "choose Midi CC in" button, then a "choose midi CC out", with 8 basic presets for different modes, and nothing else!



Yeah, see, now you got me thinking about this stuff again... I used to do quite a bit with MFX and other MIDI processing tools. My standard tools from way back included:

http://www.tencrazy.com/gadgets/mfx/ - which you already found... some of my favorites, but there is nothing on the site to suggest he has updated them for x64. I've sent him an email to ask. (update... according to the author the bridge in Sonar x/64 should work. He was not sure about any other means.)

http://www.midi-plugins.de/ - probably my second favorite bundle, and these are reported to work with x64 architectures.

Sadly, Maple MIDI Tools (http://www.maplemidi.com/Maple_plugins.html) are also on the missing-in-x64 list. They had a remapper that could do amazing tricks!

http://www.ntonyx.com/ - these do NOT work under x64, which is too bad, they were good solid plugins, but the company is a bit of a pain to deal with. I lost my license for them, and I finally gave up trying to get a replacement.

One last thought - there is a 'wrapper' from xlutop.com that is supposed to wrap DirectX and MFX plugins for various reasons. If the tencrazy stuff is causing problems you may want to take a look.

Later...


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 1, 2012)

wst3 @ Wed Feb 01 said:


> http://www.tencrazy.com/gadgets/mfx/ - which you already found... some of my favorites, but there is nothing on the site to suggest he has updated them for x64. I've sent him an email to ask. (update... according to the author the bridge in Sonar x/64 should work. He was not sure about any other means.)



Perhaps I should contact him. Sonar can't see the mfx dll - I've put it in the shared midi plugins folder, run the batch file from there to register it, rescanned the plugins and restarted the computer and it doesn't want to play.


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## wst3 (Feb 1, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Wed Feb 01 said:


> Perhaps I should contact him. Sonar can't see the mfx dll - I've put it in the shared midi plugins folder, run the batch file from there to register it, rescanned the plugins and restarted the computer and it doesn't want to play.



Give him a holler - his name is Markelford and he is a great guy. Last thing I saw on the topic, I believe, was that there were UAC problems that had to be addressed. I might be wrong though, so go to the source. And then report back here<G>!


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 1, 2012)

Hollered!


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 2, 2012)

Sing Hosannas - a response to my Cubase EuCon thread! Cubase has a page - CC automation setup - that in theory can be set to merge the 2 sources of cc. When I tried before via the track header, this didn't work. On the setup page however, you can define whether or not CCs are recorded as midi parts or automation data. When I select MIDI PART, it still doesn't work - I have 2 sources of data. However, if I select AUTOMATION LANE then the modwheel writes all the data as automation, not midi. ONE SET OF DATA! Yay! I'd much prefer cc1 to be midi controller info not automation data, but while that is still broken it is much better than nothing.

So I still don't like Cubase, but I now have a reason to continue to persevere. I'll probably start another Cubase forum thread about this zooming in the key editor which I hate. And another about not arming the tracks by pressing the red button...


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## Dan Selby (Feb 2, 2012)

That's good news, Guy.



noiseboyuk @ Thu Feb 02 said:


> And another about not arming the tracks by pressing the red button...



Really think you are wrong on this, though - the behaviour is entirely sensible and as intended: tracks arm when selected and therefore disarm when deselected. If you make an active decision to manually arm a track, rather than selecting it, then, yes, the track will stay armed until you manually disarm it - there are situations where you would want that behaviour (i.e tracks to stay armed when you are selecting other tracks.


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## Daryl (Feb 2, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Thu Feb 02 said:


> I'll probably start another Cubase forum thread about this zooming in the key editor which I hate. And another about not arming the tracks by pressing the red button...


I still don't understand what the problem is. If you have autoscroll enabled in your Key Editor, of course it will open where the playback line is. Just make sure that you don't have Autoscroll enabled in the key Editor. Or is it something else?

As far as the arming tracks goes, I can't reproduce your bug, because I'm still on Nuendo 4.3, but other than there being no global "cancel record enable for all tracks" it all seems sensible and locical to me. If you find that you litter your project with copious record enabled tracks, just put your whole template in a folder and then record enable and unenable the folder. Two clicks and it cancels everything.

D


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 2, 2012)

Daryl @ Thu Feb 02 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Thu Feb 02 said:
> 
> 
> > I'll probably start another Cubase forum thread about this zooming in the key editor which I hate. And another about not arming the tracks by pressing the red button...
> ...



Hi Daryl, I've hopefully better described the key editor problem in a new Cubase forum thread - https://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtop ... 19&t=18763 - this one's getting bogged down with that issue!

As for the arming - the "whole template in a folder" is one way round it I guess!


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## Mike Connelly (Feb 2, 2012)

Does cubase have a downloadable manual? I know they have a 30 day demo of the app but I'd like to look at some of the functionality before starting the clock on that.


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## Daryl (Feb 2, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Thu Feb 02 said:


> Hi Daryl, I've hopefully better described the key editor problem in a new Cubase forum thread - https://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtop ... 19&t=18763 - this one's getting bogged down with that issue!


Your first problem seems to be a bug, because I can't reproduce it in Nuendo. The second one should be fixed by having autoscroll switched off in the Key Editor. Does that not work for you?

D


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## Daryl (Feb 2, 2012)

Mike Connelly @ Thu Feb 02 said:


> Does cubase have a downloadable manual? I know they have a 30 day demo of the app but I'd like to look at some of the functionality before starting the clock on that.



http://www.steinberg.net/en/products/cubase/cubase6_specs_downloads.html (http://www.steinberg.net/en/products/cu ... loads.html)

D


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## Mike Connelly (Feb 2, 2012)

Thanks!


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 2, 2012)

Daryl @ Thu Feb 02 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Thu Feb 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Daryl, I've hopefully better described the key editor problem in a new Cubase forum thread - https://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtop ... 19&t=18763 - this one's getting bogged down with that issue!
> ...



No - that just turns off the autoscroll!

Here's the simplified test for this bit. Record 2 separate clips on the same track. For the 2nd clip start recording, then wait a couple of bars before playing a note. Go to clip 1 and zoom right in. Then click clip 2 - do you see anything?


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## Daryl (Feb 2, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Thu Feb 02 said:


> Daryl @ Thu Feb 02 said:
> 
> 
> > noiseboyuk @ Thu Feb 02 said:
> ...


I thought that was what you were complaining about? the fact that when you opened a Key Editor, the view would be the timeline and not the part that you just double clicked? So what was that problem then? :? 




noiseboyuk @ Thu Feb 02 said:


> Here's the simplified test for this bit. Record 2 separate clips on the same track. For the 2nd clip start recording, then wait a couple of bars before playing a note. Go to clip 1 and zoom right in. Then click clip 2 - do you see anything?


I'll try this out tomorrow to see what the issue is.

D


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 2, 2012)

Daryl @ Thu Feb 02 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Thu Feb 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Daryl @ Thu Feb 02 said:
> ...



We must be not getting each other!

Here's how I work - my midi parts / clips are all over the timeline on monitor 1. To edit anything, I click (or doubleclick) on the part, which then opens in the keyeditor (which is on monitor 2, always open). When I'm done with that, I click another clip, which replaces the previous clip in the key editor. Wash, rinse, repeat x1,000. Maybe others work differently, dunno - but that's how I do it.

Well, that works in Sonar, but for all the reasons listed, that's not working well for me in Cubase.


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## Daryl (Feb 3, 2012)

OK, so I can see a few problems with what you're doing:

1) If you open a KE you should close it before you open another one.
2) If when you open a KE you can't see anything, because you haven't recorded anything at the start of the part, you should Zoom to Event
3) If your timeline is often somewhere different from the part you are editing, you should switch Autoscroll off in the KE
4) If you don't want Cubase to remember the Zoom value of the previous KE you had open, you can use Zoom Full to reset.

Actually the best way to deal with all of this, is to set up a Macro with a KC. For example you could set up one that Opens the KE and Zooms to Event, so that whenever you open a KE it is at the default Zoom and the first note is waiting for you to edit it. Many ways to skin this particular cat.

D


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 3, 2012)

Thanks for this, Daryl



Daryl @ Fri Feb 03 said:


> OK, so I can see a few problems with what you're doing:
> 
> 1) If you open a KE you should close it before you open another one.



Urgh



Daryl @ Fri Feb 03 said:


> 2) If when you open a KE you can't see anything, because you haven't recorded anything at the start of the part, you should Zoom to Event



Urgh



Daryl @ Fri Feb 03 said:


> 3) If your timeline is often somewhere different from the part you are editing, you should switch Autoscroll off in the KE



Urgh



Daryl @ Fri Feb 03 said:


> 4) If you don't want Cubase to remember the Zoom value of the previous KE you had open, you can use Zoom Full to reset.



Urgh

This is all beginning to remind me of Pro Tools vs Pyramix in Post Production. Those of us who have used Pyramix for years are always told by the Pro Tools crowd that it's great, everyone uses it, it can do everything - yet when you get to the nitty gritty, the core tools are far more cumbersome than the competition. Of course you get used to it eventually, but... why?!



Daryl @ Fri Feb 03 said:


> Actually the best way to deal with all of this, is to set up a Macro with a KC. For example you could set up one that Opens the KE and Zooms to Event, so that whenever you open a KE it is at the default Zoom and the first note is waiting for you to edit it. Many ways to skin this particular cat.
> 
> D



I'll need to examine Sonar's behaviour more closely (currently rendering in Pyramix and can't do both). I think it is cleverer than that - if I click in the later part of a clip, it just opens at that point. That's what I need really - open where you click, zoom appropriately. It seems so fundamental and obvious to me.

It looks like Macros will get me closest - in theory it could close the old one first too - but even there - how to I chose which clip to apply the marco to? I think it'll still be more cumbersome than Ye Olde Sonar.

How do others work? Is there some totally different workflow that allows the track editor and the key editor for the right part to always be there? 

I'm almost annoyed that I have the EuCon automation thing semi-working now, if it wasn't for that I'd have formally given up! Needless to say though I really do appreciate the time you're putting in here, Daryl (and everyone else who has contributed).


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## Daryl (Feb 3, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Fri Feb 03 said:


> Thanks for this, Daryl
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1) Your way would mean that there could never be 2 KE open at the same time.
2) A Part is a complete entity. When you click you select the Part. You don't select which bit to open. If you want to do that you would have the timeline at the correct place before you opened the part.
3) If you don't switch off Autoscroll you will always be at where the timeline is. How else would you do it?
4) What happens if you always want the KE to open at the same Zoom? Your way would be really annoying for me.

Guy, the problem for anyone changing the software they use is that over the years workflows are built up, and therefore make sense. To someone who doesn't have the same workflow, they can often seem very unintuitive. I think you're either going to have to accept that Cubase and Sonar are different, and alter your way of thinking, or just go back to Sonar. Cubase doesn't work the way you want it to, and if Steinberg tried to change it, we'd all complain, because nothing would work "properly" and it would be a far slower program for us to use.

D


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## Dan Selby (Feb 3, 2012)

Pretty much what Daryl said, Guy. Regarding your step by step I can't replicate your "bug" in the first part (step 5). For me the first clip appears in the editor again. I have to say, though, that, like Daryl, I always close a KE (return key) when I'm done.

Regarding your second point I do see what you are seeing there but I really don't see the problem. Cubase remembers your current zoom so how would you expect it to behave? If you are zoomed right in looking at notes how is Cubase supposed to know that it is the first couple of notes in the part you want to be editing, rather than the last two?

The easiest way to deal with it is click the song position where you want to be in the ruler of *the project window*. You can see your notes in the part in the project window and you so you just click the song position to the notes you want to edit. So one click and you are exactly where you want to be. Certainly no "hunting around with the scroll bars to find it".

Or (as Daryl said): zoom to event - one keypress and you zoom out to see all the notes in the partwhat you want.

Or: hit ctrl and a quick spin back on your mouse wheel to zoom out.

In summary: Cubase remembers your zoom level. Most people like this and wouldn't want it changed. The consequence of this is that when you are zoomed right in and you click on another part Cubase has no way of knowing which bit of the part you are wanting to look at. But one click in the project ruler will take you eactly where you want to be or one key press will zoom you right out so you can see all the notes in the part.


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 3, 2012)

Daryl @ Fri Feb 03 said:


> 1) Your way would mean that there could never be 2 KE open at the same time.



Yes - perfect! (though of course a simple SHIFT-CLICK would follow the convention of opening more than one).



Daryl @ Fri Feb 03 said:


> 2) A Part is a complete entity. When you click you select the Part. You don't select which bit to open. If you want to do that you would have the timeline at the correct place before you opened the part.



I think that's a fundamental point and problem. I often have a part that might be 16 bars long (bars 1-16), and want to edit the last note, say. With Sonar, I just click the part at bar 16, and bar 16 would be visible in the key editor. That seems really, really, REALLY basic (I know, fixed mindeset etc etc)



Daryl @ Fri Feb 03 said:


> 3) If you don't switch off Autoscroll you will always be at where the timeline is. How else would you do it?
> 4) What happens if you always want the KE to open at the same Zoom? Your way would be really annoying for me.



OK, remembered I also have Sonar on this laptop so just checked the logic. It's very simple, and it works very well.

Double clicking a clip when stopped also moves the cursor there - so you're always where you want to be. Zoom in the piano roll retains its memory, so if you are zoomed in on one clip, you are similarly zoomed in on the next clip. However, you are always in EXACTLY the right place, cos you are precisely where you click - so you never get lost, which is my problem with Cubase, I can never tell where the hell I am and sometimes I see no notes in the key edtior at all when I'm clicking right on them in track view, let alone the right ones. When editing in Sonar you just keep on clicking on what you need, and you're there instantly (then zoom in or out if required).

If you double click a clip on playback, the piano roll moves to that track, but doesn't interrupt the playback. 




Daryl @ Fri Feb 03 said:


> Guy, the problem for anyone changing the software they use is that over the years workflows are built up, and therefore make sense. To someone who doesn't have the same workflow, they can often seem very unintuitive. I think you're either going to have to accept that Cubase and Sonar are different, and alter your way of thinking, or just go back to Sonar. Cubase doesn't work the way you want it to, and if Steinberg tried to change it, we'd all complain, because nothing would work "properly" and it would be a far slower program for us to use.



Yes, everyone gets used to what they have. The problem comes when evaluating a new DAW - you need to be able to see a similarly fast way of working, even if that way is totally different and might take you a while to become familiar with. That's what I'm not yet seeing with Cubase. So tell me your workflow. Its probably so intuitive to you it's weird to break it down.

Let's say you have 3 clips. Clip 1 is bar 1 only. Clip 2 is at bar 5 and lasts 16 bars. Clip 3 is at bar 23, starts with 2 bars of nothing then is 1 bar long. You want to edit a note in clip 1, the last note in bar 20 and the note in bar 25. Can you tell me exactly what keys you'd press for this, and what modes you're in? If I can see how someone else does it (no reply from my local Cubase mate yet!) I might be able to warm to Cubase at little more.

Dan - just seen your post, so that's great that I can see your workflow. So let me see if I have this right on the example above -

1 - click the song position where I want it (note on this - at the moment I'm clicking on the ruler at the top for this, but I think I can change this to click anywhere somewhere in the preferences, can't I?)

2 - Click the clip (?) then hit "zoom to event". And this zooms to the event nearest the cursor?

This afternoon I should be able to play around with this, and see if it makes sense to me - thanks guys.


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## Daryl (Feb 3, 2012)

Guy, my problem in telling you my workflow is that it is so different to yours, that it would make no sense. I would never have more than one clip on a track, for example. it's a bit like people telling me that I shouldn't use keyswitches, where for me they are the easiest and most efficient way to work, with no downsides at all. :wink: 

However, to answer your question as best I can, I would select the track, open the Key Editor and click the notes that I wanted to edit.

As for the things you'd like to happen, most of them can easily be achieved with setting KCs and Macros. I would suggest you open the KC window and look at what can be achieved, and then see which of those actions would suit you.

I understand your point about the Parts working differently in Sonar and Cubase, but my workflow would be that I would click the correct place in the project and then open the Key Editor. After all I'm going to have to move the cursor there anyway, so I may as well do it first.

D


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## Dan Selby (Feb 3, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Fri Feb 03 said:


> Dan - just seen your post, so that's great that I can see your workflow. So let me see if I have this right on the example above -
> 
> 1 - click the song position where I want it (note on this - at the moment I'm clicking on the ruler at the top for this, but I think I can change this to click anywhere somewhere in the preferences, can't I?)
> 
> ...



Not quite:

1. Click your first part that you want to edit. Zoom in to do some fine editing. Different ways of doing this. Pressing 'H' will zoom you in in increments. Be aware that it will zoom around the centre of the screen (so what is central will stay central). Another way is to use ctrl+mousewheel up. This will zoom centered around wherever your mouse pointer is hovering when you do that. This is useful because let's say when you open the key editor, the note start you are interested in is towards the left of the screen - hover your mouse over exactly where you want to edit and zoom in with the wheel and what is directly under your pointer stays still and either side of it zooms in (so what you are interested in doesn't zoom off screen). Alternatively, click where you are interested in in the KE ruler - the song position will jump there and the key editor will center the song position (so if you zoom with "H" you'll be zooming on where you are interested in.

Anyway, that's by the by but might be helpful (and I'm going to come back to this). So you are now zoomed right in.

2. Now click on your other part that has the couple of bars of silence at the beginning. As you have found, you are still zoomed right in and you'll be looking at the empty beginning bar. So, to quickly locate where you want to be whilst maintaining the zoom level, click on the ruler *in the project window* using the notes (little dashes) in the part on the project window to guide you. If you've clicked in the right place you're now looking at exactly what you want to edit in the KE. As you say: preferences\transport will allow you to click empty space to do the same thing, but I don't like that.

3. *Alternatively* when you click on your part and see empty space and no notes, pressing shift+E (zoom to event) will zoom you out so that all the notes in the part fit on screen (all the notes in the part are considered the "event" in this instance). Then zoom in to where you want to edit.

However, here is what I would probably *actually do* (as you say, I've had to think about this because it's all so ingrained):

hold down ctrl and mouse wheel down to zoom right out, move the mouse point to hover over where I want to edit and mouse wheel up to zoom in there. So it is one fluid movement, holding down the Ctrl key the whole time: wheel down, move pointer slightly, wheel up. *VERY* fast. What's nice about getting used to this is that you can jump around your long 16 bar part doing fine editing on notes really quickly: zoom right in on some notes at the beginning of the part. Edit them with the mouse. Ctrl+wheel down, move slightly, wheel up and, bang, I'm zoomed right in on some notes at the end of the part - ready to edit again. FAST. When I'm in the key editor, I've got my right hand on the mouse and the left hand with ring finger, middle finger and thumb sat over Ctrl, Alt, and shift: extending notes, drawing notes or controller data, moving notes, cutting notes, zooming in and out all without changing tool, moving my left hand or moving the mouse pointer more than a few cm.

HTH


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 3, 2012)

Again, thanks to you both. Dan - yes, some very good tips there, the cntrl wheel thing I do like (hurrah!). I've enabled the click in empty space - this is getting a little closer to Sonar. It's obviously not the same - you can't click on the clip itself and have it centered directly, but your tips are sure faster than what I was doing, and should stop me getting lost so often.

The only thing I couldn't make work was SHIFT+E, but I think I'll try getting used to the mousewheel way as it seems more intuitive.


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## Dan Selby (Feb 3, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Fri Feb 03 said:


> Again, thanks to you both. Dan - yes, some very good tips there, the cntrl wheel thing I do like (hurrah!). I've enabled the click in empty space - this is getting a little closer to Sonar. It's obviously not the same - you can't click on the clip itself and have it centered directly, but your tips are sure faster than what I was doing, and should stop me getting lost so often.
> 
> The only thing I couldn't make work was SHIFT+E, but I think I'll try getting used to the mousewheel way as it seems more intuitive.


Shift+ E, is my keyboard shortcuts for zoom to event... but I might have changed it at some point.

I don't like click in empty space because my parts tend to be touching so there might not be much empty space around and if if have to hunt it's slowing me down - the ruler is always in the same place and always works. I also use markers and keyboard shortcuts to jump the song position around quickly.


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