# Any Plug-Ins on the output channel? #hybrid/orchestral music



## adam_lukas (Aug 14, 2014)

Hello guys!

For writing orchestral/hybrid music, I work within a template with plug ins on every track stack (1.violins, trumpets, percussion, and so on..)

I heard a lot of people already have a mastering chain on their output channel- plugins which 'glue' everything together, even during the process of composing/arranging.

How do you guys handle that, and which Plugins should I consider to put on my output channel?

PS: I do not have iZotope


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## davidgary73 (Aug 15, 2014)

I just place a compressor on the output channel. Currently using TDR Feedback compressor with Den's Vertigo preset @ http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... t=#3737022

You can check out Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin @ http://www.cytomic.com/glue

Have a read about mix glueing @ http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... compressor

Cheers


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## adam_lukas (Aug 15, 2014)

Thanks for your answer, david! great topics!


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## woodsdenis (Aug 15, 2014)

The Slate VBC are excellent and are on sale still I think, best i have used yet.


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## adam_lukas (Aug 15, 2014)

how do you guys handle reverb? on every instrument section (like 1 instance for all 1.Vio articulations together, etc..) or one instance on STRINGS, BRASS, PERC together? 
Or simply one instance on the output?


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## PeterKorcek (Aug 15, 2014)

generally sends to reverb instance and then sends from the reverbs to another reverb, sometimes insert on the track and some people use it on the output as well / depends what you want, experiment, try, theres no ONE solution I think


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## davidgary73 (Aug 15, 2014)

@adam_lukas

Here are some links for you to read: 

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... t=#3712918

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... t=#3698945

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... t=#3712749

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... light=glue


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## synthetic (Aug 15, 2014)

My master buss is usually DMG Equality > Kush UBK-1 > Sonnox Limiter. The comp and limiter usually aren't doing much, but it depends on the track.


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## stillcd (Aug 18, 2014)

I suggest checking out this youtube video by trailer composer, Nick Murray. He shares some very useful information on how he handles his stereo bus chain:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHx_v_QlyX0&list=WL&index=5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHx_v_Q ... WL&amp;index=5)

Basically, it involves using the Waves REDD plugin, Kramer Tape, and Ozone 5. I've used this chain on a few of my tracks and quite like the results. I don't suggest sticking to presets tho. Perhaps you can use a preset as a starting point, but definitely make changes according to the track at hand.

Cody


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## PeterKorcek (Aug 18, 2014)

I was watchin the video by Nick Murray, really interesting, and also makes me wonder how do you approach these things - he seems to stay just in the MIDI domain and then just take care of the output bus and render it then in one go.

But lots of times, people are hitting lets say -8 - 12 dB when trackign and recording, then bounce (with or without effects) and go mixing with just audio files and take care fo the output bus or just send rought mix to the mastering enginner (I was doing the latter approach).

The workflow is different, but it is possible to stay in one project all the time, like tracking, recording , mixing, and then master is as well and have the final product?
Probably is, just of someone could say a bit more about it...? :-D

Thanks


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## stillcd (Aug 18, 2014)

PeterKorcek @ Mon Aug 18 said:


> I was watchin the video by Nick Murray, really interesting, and also makes me wonder how do you approach these things - he seems to stay just in the MIDI domain and then just take care of the output bus and render it then in one go.
> 
> But lots of times, people are hitting lets say -8 - 12 dB when trackign and recording, then bounce (with or without effects) and go mixing with just audio files and take care fo the output bus or just send rought mix to the mastering enginner (I was doing the latter approach).
> 
> ...



I tend to work in the same manner as Nick, in that I stay in the midi domain throughout the whole process. If I do want to mix with audio (instead of midi), I have my midi routed to blank audio tracks and then just record-enable those audio tracks and hit record. But for me, the 2-bus process is no different (unless of course, someone else will be doing my mixing or mastering for me). Doing it this way, though, allows you to stay in one project. You can just mute the midi tracks once the audio stems have been created. 

Does that help? I'm not sure if I answered your question... I'm also not sure if I'm doing it the "right" way (if there is even really a right way... lol) But this is how I've been working, and it seems to work well enough for me. 

On a side note, I used to mix with audio due to hardware limitations. Now that I have been using my new Mac Pro for a couple of months, I haven't been running into the same limitations as before, so I've mainly been sticking to the midi world and running it all in one go at the very end. I'm using multi-timbral instances of kontakt and play in each project, so really, each of these instances are already set up to function as a stem. So if I do need to deliver stems, it's really only a matter of bouncing each instance...

Cody


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## PeterKorcek (Aug 18, 2014)

stillcd @ Mon Aug 18 said:


> I tend to work in the same manner as Nick, in that I stay in the midi domain throughout the whole process. If I do want to mix with audio (instead of midi), I have my midi routed to blank audio tracks and then just record-enable those audio tracks and hit record. But for me, the 2-bus process is no different (unless of course, someone else will be doing my mixing or mastering for me). Doing it this way, though, allows you to stay in one project. You can just mute the midi tracks once the audio stems have been created.
> 
> Does that help? I'm not sure if I answered your question... I'm also not sure if I'm doing it the "right" way (if there is even really a right way... lol) But this is how I've been working, and it seems to work well enough for me.
> 
> On a side note, I used to mix with audio due to hardware limitations. Now that I have been using my new Mac Pro for a couple of months, I haven't been running into the same limitations as before, so I've mainly been sticking to the midi world and running it all in one go at the very end. I'm using multi-timbral instances of kontakt and play in each project, so really, each of these instances are already set up to function as a stem. So if I do need to deliver stems, it's really only a matter of bouncing each instance... Cody



Thats great info Cody, thanks a lot, can I ask or enquire more? I like the concept of staying in one project - its just more straightforward and Im usually doing some mixing along the way anyway, I tried to concentrate more on the mix and overall sound then in audio world when I bounced the MIDI tracks.

I also bought Mac pro a month ago and Im using quite powerful PC slave with VEP5 and Logic is the sequencer on mac pro. In your case, youre just doing MIDI editing, plugins, MIDI CC changes etc in that one project and whats the dB cap for you, you keep it until its clipping adn then take care of the output bus with plugins? Meaning that you have only MIDI tracks in fact with various changes, effects, etc, but in the end you just bounce or render that ouput bus with all that coming to it while keeping the maximum volume on it? 

Just to clarify for me, because sometimes its difficult for me to grab the overall concept of it (cave: IM just hobby composer) and I know its endless debate about the right approach which I dont think exists, its just different people have different views of getting the job done.


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## stillcd (Aug 18, 2014)

PeterKorcek @ Mon Aug 18 said:


> I also bought Mac pro a month ago and Im using quite powerful PC slave with VEP5 and Logic is the sequencer on mac pro. In your case, youre just doing MIDI editing, plugins, MIDI CC changes etc in that one project and whats the dB cap for you, you keep it until its clipping adn then take care of the output bus with plugins? Meaning that you have only MIDI tracks in fact with various changes, effects, etc, but in the end you just bounce or render that ouput bus with all that coming to it while keeping the maximum volume on it?


Honestly, I just compose to my heart's content with Logic's level meter running active in the corner of my screen. The very first plugin in my 2-bus is the gain plugin. As soon as I notice that my overall output blows past 0dB in my level meter, I'll use the gain plugin to pull it down some so that I'm no longer clipping. For each individual fader in logic's mixer, I try and make sure that the output for that track hits about 2/3 the way up in my mixer. There's probably more proper ways of managing this, but I've just been approaching this from the perspective of avoiding clipping. The music I write is mostly all big and massive trailer type pieces, so this works pretty well for me. If I started doing more delicate underscoring, I may have to change my ways :roll: 

But yes, the midi tracks contain all of my plugins for mixing EQ, Compression, etc in the mixer of Logic. Once I'm satisfied with how a piece is written and mixed, I'll start with stacking my 2-bus with the REDD plugin and kramer tape, followed by Ozone 5 for additional EQ (mid-side EQ), multi-band compression, narrowing bass freqs to "near-mono", limiting, and finish with some dithering if desired.

Again, there's not really any one "right" way of doing. But this seems to work out pretty well for me. Does that answer your question? If not, clarify and I'll do my best to help.

Cody


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## PeterKorcek (Aug 18, 2014)

stillcd @ Mon Aug 18 said:


> Honestly, I just compose to my heart's content with Logic's level meter running active in the corner of my screen. The very first plugin in my 2-bus is the gain plugin. As soon as I notice that my overall output blows past 0dB in my level meter, I'll use the gain plugin to pull it down some so that I'm no longer clipping. For each individual fader in logic's mixer, I try and make sure that the output for that track hits about 2/3 the way up in my mixer. There's probably more proper ways of managing this, but I've just been approaching this from the perspective of avoiding clipping. The music I write is mostly all big and massive trailer type pieces, so this works pretty well for me. If I started doing more delicate underscoring, I may have to change my ways.
> 
> But yes, the midi tracks contain all of my plugins for mixing EQ, Compression, etc in the mixer of Logic. Once I'm satisfied with how a piece is written and mixed, I'll start with stacking my 2-bus with the REDD plugin and kramer tape, followed by Ozone 5 for additional EQ (mid-side EQ), multi-band compression, narrowing bass freqs to "near-mono", limiting, and finish with some dithering if desired.
> 
> Again, there's not really any one "right" way of doing. But this seems to work out pretty well for me. Does that answer your question? If not, clarify and I'll do my best to help



Cool, by 2-bus you mean output bus, like the final stereo track? 

I am interested in this type of music as well, could you send me some of your creations if you dont mind? :-p

So basically, unless necessary, you dont create audio counterparts for lets say audio editing if necessary, its just all going to that master output bus - i like this approach, its more straghtforward and uniform I guess and you dont have to worry too much about levels, just avoid clipping and use gain plugin if necessary - I definitely try this approach


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## PeterKorcek (Aug 18, 2014)

Found you on SC channel , listened to Ancient Evil - very powerful and I liked it a lot


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## benmrx (Aug 18, 2014)

Thought I would chime in as I've been experimenting with 2bus processing lately WHILE composing. 

My chain is usually set up like this:

Fabfilter Pro-Q: M/S HPF'ing, and sometimes a side boost in the top end.
VBC - Red: Lightly working, HPF engaged.
Maag EQ: Slight Air Boost
Fabfilter Pro-L: Final limiter

I usually start with all these plugins deactivated, and then once I've got a generic bed laid down, or a rough version of the main idea, I'll start activating some of the pugins, but probably not all of them. Same as when mixing a rock song. I'll start getting into 2bus processing as soon as I've got a rough mix of drums/bass/guitar/vocals. 

It just makes everything downstream way easier IMO to get the 'glue' in as soon as possible.


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## stillcd (Aug 18, 2014)

PeterKorcek @ Mon Aug 18 said:


> Cool, by 2-bus you mean output bus, like the final stereo track?


Yes



PeterKorcek @ Mon Aug 18 said:


> So basically, unless necessary, you dont create audio counterparts for lets say audio editing if necessary, its just all going to that master output bus - i like this approach, its more straghtforward and uniform I guess and you dont have to worry too much about levels, just avoid clipping and use gain plugin if necessary - I definitely try this approach


Correct. I do have sends that I have each of my multitimbral midi instruments sent to for reverb. For percussion, I usually use a send to a parallel compressor aux channel. Any other processing is applied directly to the appropriate mixer for whichever instance I want to add EQ, additional reverb ETC (as an insert). And then from there, everything is routed to the stereo output (2-bus) where I apply my final processing. 




PeterKorcek @ Mon Aug 18 said:


> Found you on SC channel , listened to Ancient Evil - very powerful and I liked it a lot


Thanks! The tracks on my sound cloud account are a bit older ones of mine, but at least you get the point. I have quite a few tracks being released in a couple upcoming Sub Pub Music trailer albums. Those will be even better!

Hope this helps,

Cody

EDIT: I wanted to stress the fact that I approach production this way, because I find it to be a very simple way to get good results without diving too deep into production. There are certainly far more complicated ways of going about this that may yield a little bit better results. In my opinion, I opted for a more simpler approach and chose to just focus more on the music. I learn more all the time, and as I do, I'll adopt those learnings into my routine, and possibly my template. But this gives you a broad overview of how I work. Feel free to ask questions if something I've said doesn't make sense or if you need clarity.


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## PeterKorcek (Aug 18, 2014)

To me as a beginner is sounds like a viable and fun approach to work  
When I was using my former approach I got confused a lot by levels, and actual transition to audio - sometimes the files did not render properly, so had to repair them etc, but it might have been my mistake as well. Anyway, I will just try it and see what I get


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## synthetic (Aug 19, 2014)

I keep my 2-buss processing on as I work, but in my autoload they are set to barely do anything but prevent clipping. Then when mixing I'll dial up the compression a bit to see what that sounds like. 

EQ is usually a slight cut around 300-250 and a slight high shelf boost. 312 seems to be the evil frequency that builds up with a lot of sampler channels. I used to think this was cheating, I should be fixing it on a channel basis, but my mixes sound better this way so I do it.


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