# Is this progress? Library music via AI



## timprebble (Jul 13, 2021)

Slightly breathless article about a new start up Dynascore:

https://www.wired.com/story/dynascore-ai-music-engine/
"Dynascore’s AI–powered software is able to take a composed piece of music, then slice it up automatically and “recompose” the song to fit whatever video you’re working with..."

"Because it’s written by an AI composer and the music is either out of copyright or written in-house at Dynascore, each tune comes with a license that allows unlimited global use of the music."


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## SamC (Jul 15, 2021)

Progress of a kind, not progress for composers who make a huge chunk of their living from library music though.

Another nail in the coffin for many media composers for sure.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 15, 2021)

I watched the demo. The music barely matched any of the moods in the footage, but the sound was there. Won’t be long, people, so learn to work with the machines! Meanwhile, I’ll be working on my modular-synth retirement.


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## KarlHeinz (Jul 15, 2021)

I am usually a big fan of AI stuff as long as there is the option to get involved as some kind of "musician" (whatever that means in detail, for me its more about sounds then notes).

But here no "musician" needed it seems. AI does the composition, AI then does the sounds (its kind of crazy, it generates a midi but you wont get it, only next AI engine gets it.....).

Only part (yet !!! who knows for how long ......) missing the transcription of the musical task for the AI to bring the results.....I am sure this will be "fixed" soon and nobody needed anymore (maybe for listening.....but.....how long.....).

Sigh.....


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## SergeD (Jul 15, 2021)

Sadly for some composers the stock music extinction is not far ahead
https://www.stockmusicextinction.com/

But I wonder if an AI song could be sued for piracy by another AI song. As example, at 19 seconds, the cinematic demo is clearly taken from the Jurassic park theme. 




__





Dynascore


Dynascore is the world’s first Dynamic Music Engine. Magically compose tracks that are perfectly synchronized with your video.




www.wonder.inc




If that theme is overused in many AI songs, that could lead to some funny situation where a an AI is sued by a second AI, that would be cool


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## Vlzmusic (Jul 15, 2021)

The music in the "scenes change" is rubbish. If your clients buy rubbish from you, they may switch to the AI supplier.


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## SamC (Jul 15, 2021)

I assume the quality of AI music and its ability to score will become exponentially better very quickly. They're going hard on data collection to constantly refine. These companies have been contacting composers to test them, which seems...counterintuitive for the composer - - refining an AI that aims to chip away his/her livelihood. 

If your main gig is underscore library or corporate, the clock is ticking for sure.


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## germancomponist (Jul 15, 2021)

At some point, computers and machines do everything. Then why should one still live, or from what, if there are hardly any jobs left?


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## mybadmemory (Jul 15, 2021)

The way I see it all crafts can and will be reproduced by AI at some point. What cannot be replaced however is the ideas. So if you want to stay relevant, make sure what you sell is not just the craft, the hours, the production, but the ideas, the thinking, and the creativity and what makes you unique.

This is not a bad thing btw. What get's automated is not the fun creative part but the repetitive manual labour. What it will achieve is not the death of creatives, but rather to enable creatives to put more time into the creativity and less time into the unquestionably ineffective ways we're used to work.


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## dohm (Jul 15, 2021)

Strictly speaking, music is my side project or hobby for now. In my other career I am the founder of an AI tech company. Started it in 2014 after a few other successful startups and company buyouts. We don't do anything with AI for music, but we do a lot with AI for time-series sensor data and video. What is being missed in these conversations about AI replacing composers is the fact that the same thing could happen with video and imagery. We regularly use AI to create images and video for algorithm training. It is not a stretch to imagine AI being used to create stock video footage or entire movies (that people will buy) sometime in the near future. So, video, film and TV could equally be impacted. So, instead of always thinking with the film production in the lead, think about how you will be able to have AI create a video or film to fit your music! What if the composer is at the top and the rest of the media supports it. There is no reason a composer cannot create a story, compose music to the story, and then have AI create the imagery or video to support. Why not turn the industry norm on its head. I think Hector Berlioz would have loved something like this.

In general, I think people like to create. The tools and methods might change, but there will always be a desire to create and there will always be markets related to helping people do it and/or share it. However, we might have to adapt our approach a lot.

That said. Although I appreciate the technology, AI creating art and music really pisses me off for some reason.


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## rudi (Jul 15, 2021)

I listened to the examples on their website and tried the slider in the demo to change the transition point. I felt rather underwhelmed.

The "Cinematic" demo, sounded rather muddy at times and didn't flow very well. The opening chord sounded like a rip-off of Star Wars, some repetition, an ok top melody, then sounded almost like Jurassic Park as it hit the "dino's" back and then a cliched ending.

The "Masterworks" example sounded like a simple switch between different parts of the William Tell Overture, and not a particularly smooth one, as did the abrupt ending.

The "Pop" piece was ok-ish, mainly because it was so formulaic: a basic loop with slightly different parts on top. It would probably serve as background to pretty much anything.

The "EDM" is... see above.

They use some interesting terms such as "morphones" in their in-depth description - to me it sounded like simple musical cells, used to make-up phrases, along with transitions, and endings. If anything it reminded me of those "construction toolkits" CDs where you had different loops mapped to keyboard notes and triggered as needed, e.g one key with rhythm, one for the bass, piano, strings, with several variations.

I think the product's value is in being able to have some limited control over hit points without needing to source material or mix it, and thus save time. From that viewpoint it has its uses, but from a musicality point-of-view it didn't set my world on fire.


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## Vlzmusic (Jul 15, 2021)

SamC said:


> I assume the quality of AI music and its ability to score will become exponentially better very quickly. They're going hard on data collection to constantly refine. These companies have been contacting composers to test them, which seems...counterintuitive for the composer - - refining an AI that aims to chip away his/her livelihood.
> 
> If your main gig is underscore library or corporate, the clock is ticking for sure.


I love AI, I am sucker for everything AI based these days, but can assure you AI doesn't know if a human face it generates beautiful, or whether a frame it upscales and denoises is art. It knows only what it was taught to do - taught by humans, like you and me. It can replicate, but it cannot understand why. Once the industry moves on to another style of rubbish for the underscores, you have to update it, and use your own judgement what to do.

Simply said, there are human tasks, and AI tasks, both are important, but they don't intersect.


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## Daryl (Jul 15, 2021)

SamC said:


> If your main gig is underscore library or corporate, the clock is ticking for sure.


Well yes, if you're no good. The profession has been splitting in two for the past 20 years. The idea of a "middle class" composer is rapidly receding. It is becoming either you're successful, or you're not. AI will just ensure that the people at the lower end of the spectrum earn nothing, rather than peanuts. The real issue is that there may be no way to work yourself up the ladder, if there is o longer a ladder.


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## SamC (Jul 15, 2021)

Daryl said:


> Well yes, if you're no good. The profession has been splitting in two for the past 20 years. The idea of a "middle class" composer is rapidly receding. It is becoming either you're successful, or you're not. AI will just ensure that the people at the lower end of the spectrum earn nothing, rather than peanuts. The real issue is that there may be no way to work yourself up the ladder, if there is o longer a ladder.


I agree, and I’d probably put library music as a whole in that “middle class” category. Irrelevant wether how good you are or not. And this is coming from someone who has been writing for “top shelf” libraries for the last 6 years - I know you’re a library guy too.

I just don’t see clients scrolling through thousands of light tension cues and then chopping them up for the edit if they can get an AI programme to whip up custom cues in seconds.

I do a lot of orchestral stuff so I would say my type of work might be safe a little while longer, but think of all the plinky plonky Dramedy cues, light tension beds or even promo music that could be easily replaced with automation. That’s a gigantic chunk of a library’s product.

I could be very wrong though, please tell me I am! I actually would like to be wrong, you’ve probably got a lot more experience than me since your posts are very insightful.

The ladder for younger composers being hacked away is the saddest part.


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## gsilbers (Jul 15, 2021)

I just saw the Ai software recreating Anthony burdaine voice out of all the hours of footage plus Ai. 

Maybe we should start creating Lawyer Ai for all the copyright issue afoot. 

Lawyer A.I scours the internet/social media for copyrighted material not approve and checks to see how to sue. It sues the AI software that created the music. 
We deploy AI to make money and also loose money and just live our lives in a parallel reality.


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## nolotrippen (Jul 15, 2021)

gsilbers said:


> I just saw the Ai software recreating Anthony burdaine voice out of all the hours of footage plus Ai.
> 
> Maybe we should start creating Lawyer Ai for all the copyright issue afoot.
> 
> ...


Let me know when it can create Karen Carpenter or Mel Torme.


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## Daryl (Jul 16, 2021)

SamC said:


> I agree, and I’d probably put library music as a whole in that “middle class” category. Irrelevant wether how good you are or not. And this is coming from someone who has been writing for “top shelf” libraries for the last 6 years - I know you’re a library guy too.
> 
> I just don’t see clients scrolling through thousands of light tension cues and then chopping them up for the edit if they can get an AI programme to whip up custom cues in seconds.
> 
> ...


In spite of what some people tell you, there will always be a place for "quality". One would think that if you wanted "plinky plonky Dramedy cues", and any old crap would do, then there are plenty of cheap online libraries that could supply that. However, there are still many clients who would rather play for a real string quartet playing pizzicato, than some dodgy sampled version, using samples that sound like they were made in the 1980s.

However, you are right that the ladder is being hacked away, and, in some case, it has already gone. Much of this blame must be laid at the doors of established composers, who will do projects at a much lower rate than normal, thereby forcing a race to the bottom for those people who are below them.


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## cmillar (Jul 16, 2021)

So....concentrate on composing interesting for real people for real live concerts!

Library music started to die years ago when everyone around the whole world had access to free loop content. (....a few guilty corporations come to mind.)

Really, there's too much library music and it all sounds mind-numbingly the same. Is that fun?....always trying to sound like someone else?....just trying to create something to please some agency/corporate suit who just wants what sells like the last piece of library music he used?

AI should take it over, and then all the 'cut-and-pasters' should get into another line of work. 

For the good of music and art and humans.


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## timprebble (Jul 16, 2021)

Interesting to read all your responses...

It seems to me they are pursuing the usual startup approach of attempting to disrupt an existing market. If it was primarily about the tech (i.e. AI/machine learning applied to reconfigure a music cue to new hit points/themes etc) then there would not be any need to promote the "out of copyright or written in-house" angle. The underlying motive is not even necessarily to improve library music (as the examples clearly show, it doesn't) - it's to replace the idea of [licensing pieces of existing library music] with [paying a monthly subscription for their plugin]

I don't make, license or use library music so while I am not directly affected by this, the concept of AI and machine learning is only going to become more prevalent so the ramifications for the future are worth considering. For example, someone could take a bunch of my sound FX libraries, feed them into a machine learning algorithm and churn out "new" variations. Who owns those variations? The startup that funded the machine learning? or me?

Who owns the products produced by AI?​
Regardless of the ethical or idealogical answer, I suspect the winner of such a debate would be 'whoever can fund the legal battle.' And that would be the startup. But as someone joked about 'Lawyer AI', it is going to be interesting to see how the law (IP, copyright, ownership) evolves, globally. Because it must.
​(My 'quick fix' is to explicitly prohibit my content being used for machine learning in the standard EULA. Anyone wanting to use them for machine learning must apply for a seperate license... So far only one company has, and I had no issues with their use case. Prevention is better than a cure?)

​


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## borisb2 (Jul 17, 2021)

germancomponist said:


> At some point, computers and machines do everything. Then why should one still live, or from what, if there are hardly any jobs left?


That‘s why we need Sarah Connor.

The question is, who is Arnold in that scenario?


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## Ivan M. (Jul 17, 2021)

I think that's ok. Even good! Enough of composers wasting their talent on generic lifeless soundtracks for even more lifeless comercials and other soulless visuals.

Music is about communication, between humans, and no machine can replace that, no surrogate is ever good enough. 

I want people to talk through their music, I want music that speaks to me something meaningful! 

And machines will be there to cover that famous "does it sounds realistic" part of it.


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## cmillar (Jul 17, 2021)

Ivan M. said:


> I think that's ok. Even good! Enough of composers wasting their talent on generic lifeless soundtracks for even more lifeless comercials and other soulless visuals.
> 
> Music is about communication, between humans, and no machine can replace that, no surrogate is ever good enough.
> 
> ...


That's it.


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## Vlzmusic (Jul 17, 2021)

Ivan M. said:


> I think that's ok. Even good! Enough of composers wasting their talent on generic lifeless soundtracks for even more lifeless comercials and other soulless visuals.
> 
> Music is about communication, between humans, and no machine can replace that, no surrogate is ever good enough.
> 
> ...


I particularly agree with the last part - the real AI task will be sound realization of our ideas, it is the area it will shine indeed, and gradually replace current "Mellotrone" sample playback.


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## timprebble (Jul 17, 2021)

I suspect if you think AI will only contribute to the areas *you* see benefit, then some surprises may well be in store... It has barely started and already ethical questions arise, such as voiceover by a dead person for a documentary:









The Ethics of a Deepfake Anthony Bourdain Voice


The new documentary “Roadrunner” uses A.I.-generated audio without disclosing it to viewers. How should we feel about that?




www.newyorker.com


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## Captain Oveur (Jul 17, 2021)

Win the next Spitfire scoring competition by diluting the pool with 10 million AI entries
Use the entire Spitfire library to train the AI how to write game changing music at the edge of silence
???
Profit


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## Vlzmusic (Jul 17, 2021)

timprebble said:


> I suspect if you think AI will only contribute to the areas *you* see benefit, then some surprises may well be in store... It has barely started and already ethical questions arise, such as voiceover by a dead person for a documentary:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am well aware of voice deepfakes, and using some, but this is still a linear task - take the text, and generate the sound based on your training - the engine doesn't understand the emotions, just replicates the ones that were chosen by people. Machine learns, but it cannot do something it didn't learn. Plus, they are still categorized by styles - ones that trained by news break recordings, are different from conversational talk etc.


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## Gerbil (Jul 17, 2021)

germancomponist said:


> At some point, computers and machines do everything. Then why should one still live, or from what, if there are hardly any jobs left?


We shouldn't. They are the future and we are the ever more redundant parasites. The apocalypse is well under way. Brace yourselves.

But otherwise, have a great day!


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## SamC (Jul 18, 2021)

Daryl said:


> In spite of what some people tell you, there will always be a place for "quality". One would think that if you wanted "plinky plonky Dramedy cues", and any old crap would do, then there are plenty of cheap online libraries that could supply that. However, there are still many clients who would rather play for a real string quartet playing pizzicato, than some dodgy sampled version, using samples that sound like they were made in the 1980s.
> 
> However, you are right that the ladder is being hacked away, and, in some case, it has already gone. Much of this blame must be laid at the doors of established composers, who will do projects at a much lower rate than normal, thereby forcing a race to the bottom for those people who are below them.


Just did a Dramedy album myself where we recorded live strings and woodwinds. I’m personally always blown away by the quality and it’s good fun writing that stuff, but I do sometimes feel “do clients hear what I hear?” I know some do, but many don’t.

I just hope the advent of AI doesn’t make for lazier ears or remove any more need for that live quality sound. Working with live players is easily the best part of the job. Humans making music together is priceless for me, and its becoming rarer to get the opportunity.

I guess we can also thank some unnamed sample libraries for exacerbating that too, though.


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## Fidelity (Jul 18, 2021)

It's progress alright. So is cloning human beings and/or modifying our genetic code. The real question you should be asking is what we're "progressing" towards and whether or not it's any direction other than straight down.


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## germancomponist (Jul 18, 2021)

Daryl said:


> In spite of what some people tell you, there will always be a place for "quality". One would think that if you wanted "plinky plonky Dramedy cues", and any old crap would do, then there are plenty of cheap online libraries that could supply that. However, there are still many clients who would rather play for a real string quartet playing pizzicato, than some dodgy sampled version, using samples that sound like they were made in the 1980s.
> 
> However, you are right that the ladder is being hacked away, and, in some case, it has already gone. Much of this blame must be laid at the doors of established composers, who will do projects at a much lower rate than normal, thereby forcing a race to the bottom for those people who are below them.


..." there will always be a place for "quality". ...

And who determines what quality is?


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## tsk (Jul 18, 2021)

germancomponist said:


> ..." there will always be a place for "quality". ...
> 
> And who determines what quality is?


Record yourself taking a dump on a microphone and then ask 1,000 people to listen to that vs a live recording of a Mozart piece and tell you which one sounds "better". You'll have your answer. Extrapolate from there etc


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## EdoSev (Jul 19, 2021)

I don't agree about anything regarding IA on music.

- For absolute music, I don't see any reason why I should listen to something made by a machine. For me music, It's not entertainment, but it's something about teaching, learning through senses something true.

- For music for media and library music I see only the loss of jobs of many and much more money of a few. People who worked for that music lost their job and they will not do other music better, they simply do something else. The problem is not if library music is made by humans or machines, the problem is why the market needs library music. And with IA we still have ugly music but we neither make money on it. If an artist would like to create good music he should do it today, if he makes library music is because good music doesn't mean good money.

- Generally speaking, I think what mankind is experiencing is technical development but I wouldn't necessarily speak about "progress". That's a little bit more complex.


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## Daryl (Jul 19, 2021)

germancomponist said:


> ..." there will always be a place for "quality". ...
> 
> And who determines what quality is?


People who are qualified to do so, the same way it's always been.


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## SamC (Jul 19, 2021)

germancomponist said:


> ..." there will always be a place for "quality". ...
> 
> And who determines what quality is?


For us, the ‘gatekeepers’ in this industry. Filmmakers, producers, editors. Etc.

My main concern is that all these AI music programmes and cheap libraries with zero composer rights that come with YouTube and other editing software will harbour a new norm amongst future filmmakers - that music is an inexpensive afterthought.

Media music is already being devalued every year. I fear this AI stuff is just further promoting convenience over quality.

We’re pretty guilty as composers of doing it ourselves with sample libraries over live instruments. It’s bred a large population of composers who feel zero need to learn instruments or hire live players. And the likes of Spitifre, as great as they are, keep pumping out the libraries to ensure more and more of our clients have no idea what’s real or fake anymore and zero live players = convenience over quality.

Quality is a horizon we can’t really see but know it intuitively when we hear it, but maybe as soon as AI is fed the correct data, it’ll probably just adapt quickly to emulate that more successfully.

Who knows! I may be totally wrong — but it’s a crazy and interesting time.


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## GNP (Jul 19, 2021)

Ivan M. said:


> I think that's ok. Even good! Enough of composers wasting their talent on generic lifeless soundtracks for even more lifeless comercials and other soulless visuals.
> 
> Music is about communication, between humans, and no machine can replace that, no surrogate is ever good enough.
> 
> ...


You've brought up something very important here. Enough of composers wasting talent on generic shit. Very true.

(on the other hand), the market for commissioned work is also saturated, so I'm not sure what to do about that.


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## germancomponist (Jul 20, 2021)

Daryl said:


> People who are qualified to do so, the same way it's always been.


How long will these qualified people be around? I think you know what I mean, what I think ....?


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## germancomponist (Jul 20, 2021)

Daryl, in the meantime, people are so stupid that no one can say when and why the pyramids that exist around the world were built. It is certain that they are no tombs and that it has nothing to do with religions. .... So, yeah ......


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