# Positioning Virtual Instrument with Plugins



## Ion (Jan 8, 2016)

Hi guys, 

I was wondering, what is the difference between: 
Vienna Mir Pro
Ircam Spat
Eareverb
VirtualSoundStage

Do they all do the same thing? For a small and less powerful set up, is there any recommendation. I know that Mir Pro is a total system hog, what about the others? 

Should I be putting these plugin right into my scoring template or should I add them after when mixing stems. 

Currently I am using these Libraries: LASS, Dimension Strings, VSL Woodwinds, Cinebrass, Berlin WoodWinds.


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## tack (Jan 8, 2016)

I can't speak about Mir Pro having never tried it, but I can comment on the others:

Ircam SPAT (demo)
extremely flexible positioning and room simulation (ERs)
tails provided by Ircam Verb v3
Brutally expensive. If it was half price I would impulse buy, but it would still be much more expensive than the others.

LR and ER can be independently disabled.
One instance allows (IIRC) 8 stereo inputs that can be independently placed, which is a feature that can more than compensate for its high CPU load in a large template.
Overall a superb sound.

EAreverb2
room simulation via extremely customizable ERs
several different algorithms for tails
Quite tunable, but not nearly as much as SPAT
A bit lighter on CPU than SPAT
Multiband EQ (pre or post) with control over stereo field in each band

ER and LR can be disabled acoustically but still consumes CPU.
The author was receptive to my suggestion to disable ER/LR completely so I expect this will be addressed in the future.

Other instances can be seen on the positioning view but instances can't be named or color coded

Awesome support. The author is helpful and responsive.

VSS2
provides ERs only, and it's up to you to send to another reverb that either doesn't have or allows disabling ERs (such as ValhallaPlate)
There are about 9 different rooms in the pro version that dictate the ER used.
Sonic color can be added by choosing different simulated microphones.
Allows naming and coloring instances for very convenient visualization of placement of instruments in your template.
Sound is a bit underwhelming IMO. I found SPAT and EAReverb2 provided much more convincing rooms.
Very, very, very CPU efficient compared to the others

Based on your question, I would overwhelmingly recommend EAReverb2. If you're swimming in disposable income and money is no object for the best sound, go for SPAT. Unfortunately I can't tell you how I'd compare Mir Pro to the above.

If you're really on a budget (either money or CPU load), you know, there's nothing wrong with old fashioned pan, delay, EQ, and a nice reverb for tails. Your DAW probably already has these covered.


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## Ion (Jan 8, 2016)

Thank you tack for your in-depth reply, I have a PC Slave which has 32GB Ram and quad-core i7-6700 @ 4GHz. 
Definitely going to be trying them before buying any. 

I am unsure about how to route multiple audio source into one instance of SPAT is there a manual for this? I am using cubase 8.5.


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## tack (Jan 8, 2016)

Ion said:


> I am unsure about how to route multiple audio source into one instance of SPAT is there a manual for this? I am using cubase 8.5.


I imagine there's some tutorial somewhere on the tubes. Unfortunately I don't use Cubase so can't really help directly. With REAPER, I just put SPAT on a track, sent one instrument to the track on channels 1/2, another instrument to channels 3/4, etc. In SPAT's settings screen there is an option for the number of input channels and output channels, which you'll need to make sure you set accordingly.

Unfortunately I can't tell you how this translates to Cubase, but hopefully it helps.


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## tack (Jan 8, 2016)

I should have mentioned that SPAT and EAreverb2 are fully algorithmic. I am not sure about VSS2, but I'm inclined to believe its ERs are generated from impulse responses. At least, unlike SPAT and EAReverb2, you don't have any ability to tweak the timing or intensity of the reflections. In this regard, from what I can recall of SPAT (my demo has expired), I think EAreverb2 is most flexible.


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## Jerome Vonhogen (Jan 8, 2016)

What about correcting the panning within the sampler VST plugin, and then resaving the instruments? Wouldn't that be just as good, when custom reverb is added to each instrument group of the orchestra in the sequencer?

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I was wondering if it would be worth the tweaking effort to reposition 8Dio's Adagio & Agitato via Kontakt (with just panning correction). I mean, what does SPAT add to the sound of these libraries that would make the huge investment worth while, compared to just re-panning the entire thing in Kontakt?

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## tack (Jan 8, 2016)

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> I mean, what does SPAT add to the sound of these libraries that would make the huge investment worth while, compared to just re-panning the entire thing in Kontakt?


Oh these are very much apples and oranges. Or, maybe it's better to say that panning is one small seed in the large apple of room placement. 

The obvious other thing you get is early reflections. This gives the instrument a sense of space and depth. And the timing and intensity of the reflections depends on the position. There was a really good visualization on this point. Took me a while to find it, but here it is. This shows how the timing of the reflections contributes heavily to the brain's perception of position. Yes, left/right intensity matters too (probably the most), but it's not _just_ about panning. The room position influences the early reflections, as well as frequency response of the instrument. Then of course you get the late reverb tails as the reflections collapse into a less discernible diffuse mush. (But, as you say, those could be added by pretty much any reverb that lets you disable early reflections -- though they still contribute to the quality of the "room.")

Something like SPAT will simulate a _room_, which can be customized in many ways, and let you place a sound source within that room. EAReverb2 does this too, although I have to say SPAT really gave a phenomenal sense of a cohesive, real room.

Now that I rewatch the above linked video, I think the narrator understates our brain's ability to perceive subtle timing information. Do this small experiment: take an instrument track and add a stereo delay and just delay one channel by 1-2ms, and notice how much this influences the perceived location of the instrument, even though the left/right channel amplitudes are unchanged.


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## scarred bunny (Jan 8, 2016)

Ion said:


> I am unsure about how to route multiple audio source into one instance of SPAT is there a manual for this? I am using cubase 8.5.



Open the VST Connections window, go to groups/fx, and insert a 6.0 Music surround bus. Right-click it and manually add either three stereo inputs or six mono inputs (or any combination, I suppose), depending on what your sources are. Then you can just route tracks to those inputs the same way you normally route anything. Insert SPAT on the group track, and off you go. Might want to set SPAT to downmix to stereo in the settings page, if you're working in stereo. 

I'm not aware of any way to get more than three stereo pairs per instance.


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## Hannes (Jan 9, 2016)

tack said:


> I am not sure about VSS2, but I'm inclined to believe its ERs are generated from impulse responses. At least, unlike SPAT and EAReverb2, you don't have any ability to tweak the timing or intensity of the reflections.



Btw. the ERs of the VSS2 are also fully algorithmic - it calculates the delay and intensity of the reflections from every wall (and ceiling/floor);

cheers, 
Hannes


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## Jerome Vonhogen (Jan 9, 2016)

tack said:


> Oh these are very much apples and oranges. Or, maybe it's better to say that panning is one small seed in the large apple of room placement.
> 
> The obvious other thing you get is early reflections. This gives the instrument a sense of space and depth. And the timing and intensity of the reflections depends on the position. There was a really good visualization on this point. Took me a while to find it, but here it is. This shows how the timing of the reflections contributes heavily to the brain's perception of position. Yes, left/right intensity matters too (probably the most), but it's not _just_ about panning. The room position influences the early reflections, as well as frequency response of the instrument. Then of course you get the late reverb tails as the reflections collapse into a less discernible diffuse mush. (But, as you say, those could be added by pretty much any reverb that lets you disable early reflections -- though they still contribute to the quality of the "room.")
> 
> ...


 


Thanks, and thanks for the link as well!

- Jerome Vonhögen


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