# Why I hate Windows effing updates



## Vonk (Mar 2, 2019)

_Dear customer,
We are currently investigating an issue that affects our TRAKTOR KONTROL S4 Mk2, MASCHINE STUDIO, and all KOMPLETE KONTROL S-Series Mk1 hardware. Following the latest updates to Microsoft Windows 7, 8, and 10, these controllers are no longer recognized.

The issue was introduced in the most recent Windows update. We are in contact with Microsoft to try to narrow down the cause and find possible solutions. Until there’s a permanent fix, you’ll need to roll Windows back to the previous version in order to keep using your hardware. We’ve created a support page showing you how to do this:

*Windows 10*
https://support.native-instruments.com/hc/en-us/articles/360000983457

*Windows 8*
https://support.native-instruments.com/hc/en-us/articles/360001078378

*Windows 7 *
https://support.native-instruments.com/hc/en-us/articles/360001061717

We apologize for any inconvenience caused, and hope to resolve the issue very soon.
Best wishes,
The Native Instruments team_


Yet another routine Windows update breaks things... This is why I have to have dual boot Win Pro systems and keep stuff offline. It's like having a rogue car mechanic who breaks in overnight and disables various bits of your vehicle once a month.


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## JohnG (Mar 2, 2019)

From what I know, the only surefire tool for halting Windows 10 updates is the Local Group Policy Editor. Apparently, it's only available in Windows 10 Pro or Enterprise, not Home.

*Proviso: My PCs are never online except for a few moments once in a while to install software.* I don't use them to read news or get email or anything; if your PCs are online it's obviously dodgy to turn off updates or defender.

I pasted this "how to disable Cortana" in from some web page -- I used this same method to disable Defender and Updates:

If you’re using Windows 10 Professional or Enterprise, the easiest way to disable Cortana is by using the Local Group Policy Editor. It’s a pretty powerful tool, so if you’ve never used it before, it’s worth taking some time to learn what it can do. Also, if you’re on a company network, do everyone a favor and check with your admin first. If your work computer is part of a domain, it’s also likely that it’s part of a domain group policy that will supersede the local group policy, anyway.

You should also make a System Restore point before continuing. Windows will probably do this automatically when you install the Anniversary Update, but it couldn’t hurt to make one manually–that way, if something goes wrong, you can always roll back.

First, launch the group policy editor by pressing Windows + R, typing “gpedit.msc” into the box, and pressing Enter.

Navigate to Computer Configuration > Administrative Templates > Windows Components > Search.

Locate the “Allow Cortana” setting in the right pane and double-click it.

Set the Allow Cortana option to “Disabled” and then click “OK”.

You can now close the group policy editor. You’ll have to sign out and sign back in–or restart your PC–for this change to take effect.

To re-enable Cortana, return here, double-click the “Enable Cortana” setting, and change it to “Not Configured” or “Enabled”.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Mar 2, 2019)

You can turn off Windows Update in Windows 10 Home

To be safe, start with setting a System Restore point

Go to Control Panel/Administrative Tools/Services
Scroll down to Windows Update and select it.







Click Stop the service, and the word Running in the Status Column will disappear and then you will have the option to start it again if you want.

However, Windows Update will automatically turn itself back on after awhile.
*[EDIT: This is why @JohnG is so right about Windows Pro being a necessity. It's not helpful to turn off updates if they just go back on again.]*

What I'm doing while this NI thing is going on is to keep Windows Update running and turn it off only when I restart my computer, which for me is very rare. I generally keep my computer on.

By the way, I keep Services on my Startup on my desktop, to make it easy to check things like this.


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## JohnG (Mar 2, 2019)

TigerTheFrog said:


> However, Windows Update will automatically turn itself back on after awhile.



That's the only real drawback with Home that I encountered. I upgraded to Pro for that reason.

Good tip, though @TigerTheFrog , for those who have Home.


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## J-M (Mar 3, 2019)

I turned off the updates when one (minor) patch wrecked my OS. My life is now 95% stress free.


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## JamieLang (Mar 3, 2019)

It is a shame they dont differentiate security updates from feature/function OS updates. I get that that isnt as clear a dileniation as it might appear to be, but....some attempt could be made, if only getting Windows Defender definition updates without getting major OS updates. 

Recent update fixed my power management (sleep) weirdness. Which means one broke it. I had thought i didnt “notice” when i built it last year, but nope. Now, Im convinced it was fine, they broke it and fixed it. Not cool. And Im supposed to be ok with something as fundamental as how Windows handles sleep/power manaement....so i can get security holes plugged and WD definitions?


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## Vonk (Mar 3, 2019)

Some useful stuff posted in response to my rant, thanks. I remain irritated at the extra expense, time & effort that has to go into protecting systems against sudden and unexpected down time. The adopted model by Microsoft always changing operating system over which we, the customer who paid for it, have very little control, and which repeatedly leads to a whole host of unforeseen consequences.

For myself, I block the installation of updates, and keep a perpetually available backup on a dual boot installation. I do not use the items below, but they came strongly recommended to me from people whose technical skills greatly exceed my own, and others may find them useful.
https://www.sordum.org/9470/windows-update-blocker-v1-1/

https://www.majorgeeks.com/files/details/windows_update_minitool.html


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## Reid Rosefelt (Mar 3, 2019)

For the record, I just did a Windows Restore to a restore point I have used before, and it totally crashed everything and wouldn't open. With a bit of work I was able to figure out how to restore to a point earlier in time and I am back. 

For the moment I'm going to live with Komplete Kontrol not working anymore.


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## dzilizzi (Mar 3, 2019)

That is one of the things I like about Windows 7, you could just update the security patches. They give you lots of choices. 

I read all these because in a year or less I will need to update to 10 and I'm not looking forward to it. And it looks like I should spend the money for pro.

There are things I like about 10, such as being able to run software from 2006 on it without an issue. Of course, hardware is another matter.


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## JohnG (Mar 3, 2019)

dzilizzi said:


> And it looks like I should spend the money for pro.



Yes. 

For one thing, the cost of buying Home and then, if you regret it, upgrading to Pro doesn't seem economical at all.


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## kitekrazy (Mar 3, 2019)

JohnG said:


> That's the only real drawback with Home that I encountered. I upgraded to Pro for that reason.
> 
> Good tip, though @TigerTheFrog , for those who have Home.



Rumor has it that this is going to change in the Home version. I'd like to meet these people screwing up which I now call f'updates and punch them in the nuts. On the positive side you can roll back your OS.


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## kitekrazy (Mar 3, 2019)

Vonk said:


> _Dear customer,
> We are currently investigating an issue that affects our TRAKTOR KONTROL S4 Mk2, MASCHINE STUDIO, and all KOMPLETE KONTROL S-Series Mk1 hardware. Following the latest updates to Microsoft Windows 7, 8, and 10, these controllers are no longer recognized.
> 
> The issue was introduced in the most recent Windows update. We are in contact with Microsoft to try to narrow down the cause and find possible solutions. Until there’s a permanent fix, you’ll need to roll Windows back to the previous version in order to keep using your hardware. We’ve created a support page showing you how to do this:
> ...



Switching to Mac is not an answer either. They come across similar problems. I hate the "evolving" OS. I miss those days of just Windows service packs.


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## patrick76 (Mar 3, 2019)

I miss Windows 98. Damn u Microsoft!


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## d.healey (Mar 3, 2019)

I defenestrated my computer and installed GNU/Linux a few years ago when I released Micro$haft had more control over my computer than I did.


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## mscp (Mar 3, 2019)

JamieLang said:


> It is a shame they dont differentiate security updates from feature/function OS updates. I get that that isnt as clear a dileniation as it might appear to be, but....some attempt could be made, if only getting Windows Defender definition updates without getting major OS updates.



Hi Jamie, 

Actually they do, but I'm not entirely sure whether you can pick which to update or not...I think it's "all or nothing" with Windows 10 Pro. When it's a security update, it says "Security update for Windows 10 for x64-based systems...etc..etc..". When it's just a regular update, it's written as "Feature update to Windows, version/build xyz". I frequently update my VEP server, and that's more or less how they name their updates. Sometimes they group them into what they call "Cumulative updates" because the user hasn't updated the OS for a while.


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## kitekrazy (Mar 3, 2019)

patrick76 said:


> I miss Windows 98. Damn u Microsoft!



Windows 2000 is still my favorite OS.


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## dzilizzi (Mar 3, 2019)

JohnG said:


> Yes.
> 
> For one thing, the cost of buying Home and then, if you regret it, upgrading to Pro doesn't seem economical at all.


Home is free for me, as I grabbed 10 and went back to 7. I think home was the only free option though. I definitely wouldn't pay for it as you can still get it free from MS if you know where to look. And you have an earlier version. 

Definitely paying for pro, and not the OEM version either. It sounds like the OEM version might screw you if you change a hard drive.


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## JohnG (Mar 3, 2019)

dzilizzi said:


> t sounds like the OEM version might screw you if you change a hard drive.



IDK. As you may have witnessed, I just gave up trying to change to an SSD, for the time being. I can't remember whether I bought Windows or upgraded from 7 for that computer. Some other lifetime.


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## dzilizzi (Mar 3, 2019)

JohnG said:


> IDK. As you may have witnessed, I just gave up trying to change to an SSD, for the time being. I can't remember whether I bought Windows or upgraded from 7 for that computer. Some other lifetime.


I've bought OEM versions before. You can actually get them to let you reuse them on a new computer but I've always had to call. If I remember correctly, I did it for my Windows 8 computer when I changed the HDD. But I don't remember what I had to give them to get it to work.


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## mscp (Mar 3, 2019)

dzilizzi said:


> I've bought OEM versions before. You can actually get them to let you reuse them on a new computer but I've always had to call. If I remember correctly, I did it for my Windows 8 computer when I changed the HDD. But I don't remember what I had to give them to get it to work.



Right. You have to phone them so they can deauthorize the SN for you - from their server.


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## Quasar (Mar 3, 2019)

JohnG said:


> IDK. As you may have witnessed, I just gave up trying to change to an SSD, for the time being. I can't remember whether I bought Windows or upgraded from 7 for that computer. Some other lifetime.


I have to believe you can do this. I sometimes do this for other people, either because their HD died or because they want to upgrade to SSD, and have replaced hard drives on at least forty or fifty W10 computers (some of which were originally upgraded from earlier versions). I've done both fresh installs and image restorations from Acronis or Macruim and have never had a problem, although I have had to call a handful of times and do the phone activation.

But you never know I guess. MS is rather secretive about the whole activation thing. For example, I recently tried to use a W10 media installation flash drive and the activation did not take, so I reinstalled the OEM W7 and then used the online MS media creation tool for W10 and that did work. You can still upgrade from 7 to 10 for free even though MS doesn't officially acknowledge that. I assume it's because they really want everyone to be on W10, but don't want to formally renounce their "limited time only" deal from when it was officially free.


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## dflood (Mar 3, 2019)

kitekrazy said:


> Switching to Mac is not an answer either. They come across similar problems. I hate the "evolving" OS. I miss those days of just Windows service packs.


This is true, but it usually only happens with the annual named OS iterations, not the incremental updates. Because Native Intruments is generally slow to declare compatibility, I have learned not to jump on the update wagon too soon.

I still have one windows machine that I do not use for music at all, but nevertheless, the auto-updates drive me crazy, like when you turn on the machine and find out it just needs 20 minutes or so to finish installing whatever patches it needs to apply before you can even start.


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## mscp (Mar 3, 2019)

dflood said:


> This is true, but it usually only happens with the annual named OS iterations, not the incremental updates. Because Native Intruments is generally slow to declare compatibility, I have learned not to jump on the update wagon too soon.
> 
> I still have one windows machine that I do not use for music at all, but nevertheless, the auto-updates drive me crazy, like when you turn on the machine and find out it just needs 20 minutes or so to finish installing whatever patches it needs to apply before you can even start.



Call me crazy but...

Since Microsoft doesn't really release major build updates that often, do we even need to update it for, let's say 2 years? How bad could it be to turn the updates off, switch the wifi off, and only back on to download sample libraries, plugins, and software? Is it TOO risky? Do you think, in this space of time, someone can sneakily hack into our computers?

I generally dedicate a cheap computer just for web-browsing. I never do anything outside the realm of audio on my work machines (including Macs).


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## JohnG (Mar 3, 2019)

Phil81 said:


> How bad could it be to turn the updates off, switch the wifi off, and only back on to download sample libraries, plugins, and software?



That's what I do. My PCs almost never ever go online.

PS -- how loooong did that 1803 feature update take? Good grief!!


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## mscp (Mar 3, 2019)

JohnG said:


> That's what I do. My PCs almost never ever go online.
> 
> PS -- how loooong did that 1803 feature update take? Good grief!!



Ha. I'm very negligent when it comes to windows updates. I have the healthy but painful (oh - the irony) habit of performing clean installs every 2 or so years. I don't update Windows unless NI, Steinberg, VSL, or any of the other dogs force me to. Then I go...hmmm..time to spend the weekend installing windows and clicking on "endless" Relocate Library links.

Man I wish I was super famous so I could hire assistants to do that for me. lol.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Mar 3, 2019)

JohnG said:


> That's the only real drawback with Home that I encountered. I upgraded to Pro for that reason.
> 
> Good tip, though @TigerTheFrog , for those who have Home.


Not such a good tip, it seems. Windows Update just turns itself back on, I'm discovering, as I deal with this Komplete Kontrol issue. You need Pro to pause updates.


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## wuubb (Mar 3, 2019)

From my own war with Windows updates:

At one point in time I had renamed the .dll that was the Windows Update service so that Windows literally couldn't use it. Buuut that also broke the store and a surprising number of other things that aren't even related and IMO shouldn't be dependent on WU service...

Another thing you can do if you have Group Policy Editor in Pro (though I'm sure you could find the relevant registry keys if you have Home, since that's all GPO does) is specify and intranet update location: basically Windows thinks it's getting updates from a company server, then just put in fake values that point to nothing.

You can also use NSudo to take control of the UpdateOrchestrator and WindowsUpdate folders in TaskScheduler and get rid of them. Handy little tool for getting back control of certain aspects of Windows.


I basically did everything: GPO, registry, disabling services, deleting/renaming files all at once and so far so good (on my SB2 as I write this). For my desktop computers I now just run a PiHole that blocks Windows update domains...much easier


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## JohnG (Mar 3, 2019)

TigerTheFrog said:


> Not such a good tip, it seems.



Better than nothing but agree that Pro is the way to go using Group Policy Editor. Maybe @wuubb is a Computer Genius but for mere mortals, Pro works.


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## dzilizzi (Mar 4, 2019)

Truthfully, if you are careful where you go, you can be online and never need a virus protection/update and still be just fine. So going directly to sites to download and having things like Native Access or iLok manager run should never introduce viruses or let hackers in. This is also where WiFi is nice to have because you can turn it off. Hardwired connections are not so easy.


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## thevisi0nary (Mar 4, 2019)

Gotta love a product that forces users to go into the group policy editor just to turn off the forced nonsense that interferes with workflow. Great design! It's a shame I can't hold onto windows 7 forever.


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## kitekrazy (Mar 4, 2019)

You'd think after Balmer left MS would leave Planet Stupid but I guess not.


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## wuubb (Mar 4, 2019)

JohnG said:


> Maybe @wuubb is a Computer Genius but for mere mortals, Pro works.



Haha, I am humbled by your comment (though the secret is I just scrounge google like everyone else until I find things people much smarter than me have figured out lol ). I mostly throw those other methods out there since I've seen reports that Windows will even ignore Group Policy and do whatever TF it wants, hence needing more...drastic measures.


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## Ben H (Mar 4, 2019)

dzilizzi said:


> Truthfully, if you are careful where you go, you can be online and never need a virus protection/update and still be just fine. So going directly to sites to download and having things like Native Access or iLok manager run should never introduce viruses or let hackers in.



Um, no.

*Myth #5: I Don't Need Anti-Malware Tools, I Don't Do Anything Risky*

Perhaps the biggest and most persistent computer security myth we see is the idea that one person's definition of "common sense" is all that's required for everyone to stay secure -- to the point where as long as you have it, you don't need anti-malware or antivirus at all. That is a foolish approach. Says Theobald:

Secure computing, just safe driving, doesn't just depend on your habits. It depends on the habits of everyone else as well. Recently it was found that hackers had managed to put the 'Styx exploit' into advertisements that were shown on YouTube. Anyone who viewed a YouTube page with those ads had their computer attacked and possibly infected with the Styx virus. So you could have been only visiting "safe" websites, but even YouTube got hacked! The only defenses to these "drive-by" viruses is to update your operating system and software frequently to get the latest security patches and run anti-virus software."

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/techandscience/five-computer-security-myths-debunked-by-experts/ar-BBTSde0?li=AAwmrQf


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## mscp (Mar 4, 2019)

dzilizzi said:


> Truthfully, if you are careful where you go, you can be online and never need a virus protection/update and still be just fine. So going directly to sites to download and having things like Native Access or iLok manager run should never introduce viruses or let hackers in. This is also where WiFi is nice to have because you can turn it off. Hardwired connections are not so easy.



Pretty much the best solution for working with windows. 
Rule of thumb for making music on Windows: Tweaking the OS does more harm than good. Also, do not ever delete what comes with it despite many claims that lure you to do it. Best to leave it as is. Just accept what you get and don't update the machine unless extremely necessary - which by then you might as well perform a clean install. You will be a much happier user this way.  
Buy an ultrabook or something for daily tasks if you haven't gotten one already.

Yours truly,
A Windows user who has worked with it since ver.3.1, and had to find it the hard way.


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## JohnG (Mar 4, 2019)

Phil81 said:


> Tweaking the OS does more harm than good.



Well I can't agree with that as a blanket statement, unless you are just cautioning against launching into changes that are really invasive?

Changing power settings, fiddling with the BIOS, and a few other things have dramatically improved the responsiveness of my PCs.


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## dzilizzi (Mar 4, 2019)

Ben H said:


> Um, no.
> 
> *Myth #5: I Don't Need Anti-Malware Tools, I Don't Do Anything Risky*
> 
> ...


I don't actually consider YouTube a safe site. I guess I should have been more clear. I was saying if you only go online to update things like your iLok and maybe run downloaders, it's probably fine not to keep up with the security updates. My chrome homepage has only the Google search bar - no ads. If you go directly to the company site, like Spitfire or 8Dio, they don't have ads because they want you to buy their products. I guess I shouldn't say this though. Not everyone sits with a second computer that is updated/protected and online in front of their music computer so it doesn't have to be online. 

It is getting very hard to be totally offline anymore. So limiting your exposure is the best thing, even with updates and virus protection.


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## mscp (Mar 4, 2019)

JohnG said:


> Well I can't agree with that as a blanket statement, unless you are just cautioning against launching into changes that are really invasive?
> 
> Changing power settings, fiddling with the BIOS, and a few other things have dramatically improved the responsiveness of my PCs.




By tweaking the OS, I mean doing stuff like dealing with its Registry Editor, killing PID’s because the user doesn’t like “this or that” process, or uninstalling stuff that comes with the OS since a lot of library files are shared across multiple software/apps.

BIOS is hardware level which is a little safer to tweak than what’s under the Windows bonnet in many ways. 

Things like power management or anything Microsoft wants you to tweak by offering you in its control panel is absolutely safe.


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## FriFlo (Mar 5, 2019)

JohnG said:


> That's what I do. My PCs almost never ever go online.


You keep saying that and I do the same with my slave PC which makes a practical solution for these. But for the main machine? Don't you ever go online and look at videos, listen to music as part of the work? Or simply download/upload a file from/to your client?
A Computer best kept offline sounds like the best argument to keep buying Macs ... although, there objectively are quite a lot of reasons NOT to buy from Apple! Quite a shame IMO ... Damn you, Microsoft!


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## mscp (Mar 5, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> You keep saying that and I do the same with my slave PC which makes a practical solution for these. But for the main machine? Don't you ever go online and look at videos, listen to music as part of the work? Or simply download/upload a file from/to your client?
> A Computer best kept offline sounds like the best argument to keep buying Macs ... although, there objectively are quite a lot of reasons NOT to buy from Apple! Quite a shame IMO ... Damn you, Microsoft!



I used to work in a post studio with a large NEVE desk connected to a multitrack terminal and next to it, a pile of hardware racks. How do you think they survive and have a large number of clients? they have a computer in another room, and a coffee machine where clients can sit down and check stuff on the internet if needed. They are not even allowed to have mobile phones on inside the main studio's control room. There's a "do not smoke" and "turn off any mobile phone" on the door. I have never seen anyone entering the room in a bad mood because of that.

A machine is most productive if left to do one job and one job only, regardless whether it's a Mac or PC. Was the case a decade ago...still the case nowadays.

This is why a Mac would stand out in front of a PC these days:

1. Coreaudio is slightly more stable than ASIO, and way better (latency-wise) if you don't have an audio interface connected to your Mac.
2. Mac OS X's kernel is still much more solid than Windows.
3. Logic Pro X - which might be still be the choice to some.

Other than that, I'd pick Windows any day because Apple is famously known for inflating prices, and not leaving the option for the user to upgrade their parts when needed (since 2013).


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## FriFlo (Mar 5, 2019)

Thank you for the lecture, sir!  But didn't I say myself that there are a lot of reasons to not use Apple hardware? There surely are and that is why I freak out over MS belittling their customers by taking care of decisions for them.
As for the "Pro studio with a Neve desk!" ... it doesn't intimidate me. That is a recording studio and of course they need absolutely fail-safe hardware and can afford a lounge for their customers to surf a bit. But you fail to realize, there are far more people who need a reliable, powerful multiple purpose working system. Computers, both Macs and PCs, are quite capable of driving Cubase with a demanding template (especially with VEpro slaves attached), while it is still not a problem to play something on iTunes or YouTube and record that as an audio track in Cubase for reference or as a temp. Most professional composers need a computer like that. Also, there are many other benefits of being connected to the internet, like software passwords on the cloud. There can easily be a PC that runs reliable and is still connected to the internet.
There is absolutely no reason to defend MS despicable practice of forcing their will on their customers. I hate Apple, but MS sucks equally - they both just have their own aspects, where they excel at sucking! :-D


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## JohnG (Mar 5, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> But for the main machine?



It's a Mac.

Plus I have a laptop, that doesn't do much for music these days and is available for email and that kind of thing; it's also a Mac.

I don't see why anyone hates Apple or Microsoft. When you think of all the silly people who buy their products and use them wrong, it's amazing that any of this stuff works at all.

Imagine being a Microsoft customer service rep, just for five minutes. Then be glad you aren't.


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## MartinH. (Mar 5, 2019)

TigerTheFrog said:


> For the record, I just did a Windows Restore to a restore point I have used before, and it totally crashed everything and wouldn't open. With a bit of work I was able to figure out how to restore to a point earlier in time and I am back.



Are you saying the restore point made it _worse_? 

I'm asking because I frequently have discussions about this with a friend, where I say I don't update stuff because of risk of unscheduled downtime, and he says "just set a restore point" and I say "I don't trust those", but I don't have much to back that up. I just never use them. If I want to make a backup, I save a full hard drive image that takes 8 friggin hours... leading me to very rarely wanting to do it and really dreading all updates. But it still seems like less of a burden to run that overnight than rely on restore points and have them fail. 




dzilizzi said:


> I don't actually consider YouTube a safe site. I guess I should have been more clear. I was saying if you only go online to update things like your iLok and maybe run downloaders, it's probably fine not to keep up with the security updates. My chrome homepage has only the Google search bar - no ads. If you go directly to the company site, like Spitfire or 8Dio, they don't have ads because they want you to buy their products. I guess I shouldn't say this though. Not everyone sits with a second computer that is updated/protected and online in front of their music computer so it doesn't have to be online.
> 
> It is getting very hard to be totally offline anymore. So limiting your exposure is the best thing, even with updates and virus protection.



This really isn't a secure strategy because _every _website could potentially get infected, nothing is 100% secure. I think antivirus software on a windows machine is a must. I'm fine with skipping all winodws updates, but without antivirus software you're just gambling imho.


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## FriFlo (Mar 5, 2019)

JohnG said:


> It's a Mac.


Yup, then it is exactly the same thing I do. But I kind of whish to leave Apple for the main machine, too! Still no Mac Pro in 2019 kind of was the final nail in the coffin ... but I hate the idea of having to count on MS making some "decisions" for me, that is why with great reluctance, I might go for one of those children-toy Mac minis. Today, this might even be enough, if the heavy lifting is done on the slaves ...
What Mac are you using these days?


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## JohnG (Mar 5, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> If I want to make a backup, I save a full hard drive image that takes 8 friggin hours... leading me to very rarely wanting to do it and really dreading all updates.



Yikes -- eight hours is too long. I'm using AOMEI on the PCs and it has been working for me. The initial backup is very time-consuming, but after that, it has an incremental setting that backs up only the new stuff. It seems to work; I accidentally messed up a sample drive not too long ago and restored the drive pretty fast from the backup. Not sure how well it would work with a C: drive -- haven't tried that.

For local storage, I bought one of those multi-drive enclosures and back up to that -- all my drives from all my computers. The enclosure makes a mirror of the backups, so there are two copies in my studio, then once in a while I rotate one of _those_ copies to a bank deposit, in case of fire.


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## JohnG (Mar 5, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> What Mac are you using these days?



I use a refurbished 12-core. The box is a 2009 Mac but the insides have all been replaced. There's a grad student from UCLA who did it and it rocks.

[edit: and a separate laptop, and an iMac for Pro Tools. And all the rest of my family mostly use Mac laptops, which can take a fair beating and still work.]


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## mscp (Mar 5, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> There is absolutely no reason to defend MS despicable practice of forcing their will on their customers. I hate Apple, but MS sucks equally - they both just have their own aspects, where they excel at sucking! :-D




1. I am not defending Microsoft. I'm indirectly stating that there's nothing you can do. OS companies don't care about media professionals anymore. All they care is "whether your mobile phone can work seamlessly with your computer" among other bull****. I always tell software manufacturers who complain about these two systems: "well, if you're so fed up with the way things are, write for Linux. I bet everyone will ditch Apple/MS altogether if every manufacturer jumps ship". I did wish there was an OS exclusively for audio. It has always been my dream. There isn't. I have to make peace with what's available. 

2. If there is a perfectly viable, stress-free solution to have a PC connected to the internet, why are there so many people in the same boat as you? Why can't these questions be answered over here then? I don't think there's any secret sauce to maintaining a fully-functioning connected PC that people are so willingly keeping it as a major secret. 

3. My comments were based on my own experience. It was not meant as an intimidation as you claimed it was. I simply wanted to show how things work on my end to give you an alternative solution to what it seems to be a stressful situation. I have used my work reference to show you that there are workarounds to your problem. At home, I use a laptop whenever I want to browse the internet. If I ever need to bring outside or youtube music to my my master DAW, I just connect my laptop to my 14 channels mixer, and arm a track called "reference track" on my DAW.

I'm just sharing my workflow and how it hasn't bothered me yet.


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## mscp (Mar 5, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> Yup, then it is exactly the same thing I do. But I kind of whish to leave Apple for the main machine, too! Still no Mac Pro in 2019 kind of was the final nail in the coffin ... but I hate the idea of having to count on MS making some "decisions" for me, that is why with great reluctance, I might go for one of those children-toy Mac minis. Today, this might even be enough, if the heavy lifting is done on the slaves ...
> What Mac are you using these days?



My main DAW's host is a 2017 MacBook Pro. If you have slave PCs doing most orchestral work, and your master daw template doesn't exceed, let's say ~360 tracks, a laptop connected to an external monitor is all you need (if you want portability), or a Mac Mini. iMacs or desktops are no longer required. But if you need "Hans Zimmer" style track counts, then a 2013 Mac Pro or better is necessary. I have an 8th generation i7 4.2Ghz and the amount of orchestral instances I have in my VEP is insane. Unfortunately, Logic can only do 256 tracks, so I have my own workarounds in my workflow for that "peace of mind". I've been slowly learning Cubase in the meantime to make the switch to a monstrous template when the time is right for me.


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## MartinH. (Mar 5, 2019)

JohnG said:


> Yikes -- eight hours is too long. I'm using AOMEI on the PCs and it has been working for me. The initial backup is very time-consuming, but after that, it has an incremental setting that backs up only the new stuff. It seems to work; I accidentally messed up a sample drive not too long ago and restored the drive pretty fast from the backup. Not sure how well it would work with a C: drive -- haven't tried that.
> 
> For local storage, I bought one of those multi-drive enclosures and back up to that -- all my drives from all my computers. The enclosure makes a mirror of the backups, so there are two copies in my studio, then once in a while I rotate one of _those_ copies to a bank deposit, in case of fire.



Sounds like you have a good backup strategy! I'm trying, but mine isn't quite as robust yet, but that's a topic for another day.

I have sample libraries on my system drive too, making the 500 gb drive ~90% full, which leads to the long backup time of the full drive. I can't remember if my current backup tool supports incrementals. I used to run automated weekly incremental backups many years ago, those were much quicker indeed. 
My windows install is over 7 years old, so I'm more worried about my working data than having to re-install windows, because it's kind of overdue anyway. For my project folders I make backups to another internal drive and to online storage every couple of days.


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## tack (Mar 5, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> I think antivirus software on a windows machine is a must. I'm fine with skipping all winodws updates, but without antivirus software you're just gambling imho.


These aren't really providing substantial protection these days. There's still a role for signature-based malware detection but the irony is that many anti-malware products actually present additional attack vectors that can and have been exploited.

The best defense is honestly not to do dodgy shit on the Internet. And if you're using Windows, keep Windows Defender enabled and don't resort to third party products replace or augment it. It's quite good enough for what it does.

And to disagree with you further, not applying security updates in a timely manner increases your risk, and zero days by definition aren't caught by antivirus software.


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## FriFlo (Mar 5, 2019)

JohnG said:


> I use a refurbished 12-core. The box is a 2009 Mac but the insides have all been replaced. There's a grad student from UCLA who did it and it rocks.
> 
> [edit: and a separate laptop, and an iMac for Pro Tools. And all the rest of my family mostly use Mac laptops, which can take a fair beating and still work.]


Exactly the same here. And ist does work, still. But doesn’t it bother you to run an ancient system like that?
I am always afraid of it seriously crashing, as it would probably take some time to figure out repair, plus, it does not seem reasonable to put much money into professional repair.
I am not sure how the Mac mini would prefer for my huge track count template. I am just certain, it will easily beat the Mac Pro with CPU intensive plugins. 
Still brewing on this topic ... maybe I’ll hold out one more year like this ... or Microsoft finally becomes reasonable ... or Apple ... whatever!


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## Fab (Mar 5, 2019)

JohnG said:


> From what I know, the only surefire tool for halting Windows 10 updates is the Local Group Policy Editor. Apparently, it's only available in Windows 10 Pro or Enterprise, not Home.
> 
> *Proviso: My PCs are never online except for a few moments once in a while to install software.*



Yep, this is my proviso also. It works.


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## mscp (Mar 5, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> I am not sure how the Mac mini would prefer for my huge track count template. I am just certain, it will easily beat the Mac Pro with CPU intensive plugins.



Mac Mini's do not welcome huge track counts (>1000), just like the new 2018 i9 MacBook Pros.

Rumour has it a new Mac Pro will be introduced in this year's WWDC if you can wait. Even Apple "hinted" it's a 2019 product to TechCrunch. WWDC will be on June 3-7th this year. However, if they are planning to manufacture and release their own CPU chips in 2020 as a means (perhaps) to put an end to the hackintosh community, then I think it would be silly to release a brand-new powerful Pro computer this year.


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## MartinH. (Mar 5, 2019)

tack said:


> These aren't really providing substantial protection these days. There's still a role for signature-based malware detection but the irony is that many anti-malware products actually present additional attack vectors that can and have been exploited.



From the article:



> As impressive as this all sounds,* there is one major flaw which will drastically limit the scope of this exploit. In order to do any of this, the hacker in question must physically be at the computer they wish to infect.* Given that most malware is spread via the internet, it is unlikely that this exploit will cause major problems.






tack said:


> The best defense is honestly not to do dodgy shit on the Internet. And if you're using Windows, keep Windows Defender enabled and don't resort to third party products replace or augment it. It's quite good enough for what it does.


I've only ever caught/detected one trojan (many many years ago) on the computers that I owned and I strongly suspect that to have come through an exploit in either ICQ or the legal paid-for-version of Napster which was based on Internet Explorer tech. Personally I'm much more wary of using standard Microsoft software than doing "dodgy shit" with appropriate layers of third party protection.




tack said:


> And to disagree with you further, not applying security updates in a timely manner increases your risk, and zero days by definition aren't caught by antivirus software.


Are zero day exploits caught by security updates? Don't they lag behind by definition too?

We'll probably have to agree to disagree on some of the windows security practices that we're employing. But I'll admit that I'm making a riskier choice for more convenience with things like always being logged in on an admin account, disabling UAD, skipping OS updates, not using Windows Defender etc..


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## Reid Rosefelt (Mar 5, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> Are you saying the restore point made it _worse_?



Yup. And I have been using System Restore for years and it has never failed me like this. At the very worst, it would turn my computer back on exactly the way it was and say that the the restore didn't work. This was a first. 

On the other hand, all I had to do was restore it to a day before the restore point that didn't work and I was good to go. But it took a bit of searching on my iPad to figure out how to get from the mess I was in (turning off over and over) to make it do another system restore. 

But I still have a practice of setting up regular restore points and checking to see if there are a few. If you don't configure system restore to have access to a lot of space on your drive, it will delete the old restore points.


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## tack (Mar 5, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> From the article: "there is one major flaw which will drastically limit the scope of this exploit. In order to do any of this, the hacker in question must physically be at the computer they wish to infect"


But the basic point is that antivirus software presents an additional attack surface and they're not exactly flawless. Their function requires low level OS hooks that an attacker can leverage to bypass normal OS security measures. Caution is warranted.




MartinH. said:


> Personally I'm much more wary of using standard Microsoft software than doing "dodgy shit" with appropriate layers of third party protection.


Whereas I tend to think the development team best suited not to fuck up low level Windows hooks is Microsoft. Threat prevention software would have to bring something extremely novel and compelling to the table for me to want to take on the additional risks (and performance hit).




MartinH. said:


> Are zero day exploits caught by security updates? Don't they lag behind by definition too?


Sure, but consider the whack-a-mole game that antivirus software typically plays. They observe exploits in the wild, they update their signature definitions as and when those instances of exploits are catalogued, and the more sophisticated ones would use heuristics to detect possible attacks through observing the sequence of syscalls that are typical for exploiting that vulnerability. New exploits for the same vulnerability will almost certainly have different signatures, requiring another update cycle. That isn't a one time lag -- for more serious vulnerabilities that see a lot of action, it's a treadmill.

This is why I think it's much more important to prioritize prevention over detection. Prevention comes in the form of behavioral adjustments to minimize risky behavior, and to ensure the root cause of the problem is swiftly addressed, which means patching. Detection is a secondary layer in a defense-in-depth strategy.

And I suppose these are the main points where we disagree: the prioritization of preventive measures over detection, and the value of third party detection over first party (i.e. Defender).


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## FriFlo (Mar 5, 2019)

Phil81 said:


> Mac Mini's do not welcome huge track counts (>1000), just like the new 2018 i9 MacBook Pros.
> 
> Rumour has it a new Mac Pro will be introduced in this year's WWDC if you can wait. Even Apple "hinted" it's a 2019 product to TechCrunch. WWDC will be on June 3-7th this year. However, if they are planning to manufacture and release their own CPU chips in 2020 as a means (perhaps) to put an end to the hackintosh community, then I think it would be silly to release a brand-new powerful Pro computer this year.


Are you sure? I am talking about midi tracks and some VEpro returns. The old cheese graters are still ok with huge track counts, but only with high latency. I’d think that the mini will allow you thousands of midi tracks (Cubase) and with the 10gbE connection it should also allow you lots of returns. Even older laptops have no problem recording all channel of an RME madi FX (172 audio channel). I really don’t see where this is gonna be problematic. 
On top of that, I need some synth tracks and some pluggins to run on that machine. Nothing wild!
The Mac mini is certainly not my first choice! I even despise the idea of buying such a style oriented, low functional and underpowered device! I am just annoyed by Microsoft and look for a not to expensive system to buy from Apple with the major work done by the slave PCs. Just to enjoy the luxury of continuing to use Mac OS and not have to deal with this MS BS!


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## mscp (Mar 5, 2019)

FriFlo said:


> Are you sure? I am talking about midi tracks and some VEpro returns. The old cheese graters are still ok with huge track counts, but only with high latency.



The 2018 Mac mini is nothing extraordinarily better than the new MacBook Pro, except the price tag (if you're into mobility), less ram than the mini can offer (which you don't really need it - I guess), and 1Gb ethernet bus cap - a machine that is perfectly capable of running thousands of midi tracks for as long as you don't return more than a few hundred of individual tracks/auxes into it for printing (my screen starts lagging at around 350 auxes on DP. Can't test on Logic, because oh well, Logic caps at 256 :( I wish I had Cubase on it to see how efficient it handles track count so I could offer help).




FriFlo said:


> I’d think that the mini will allow you thousands of midi tracks (Cubase) and with the 10gbE connection it should also allow you lots of returns. Even older laptops have no problem recording all channel of an RME madi FX (172 audio channel). I really don’t see where this is gonna be problematic.



True, except for the returns. There you might have to compromise a little bit, I'm afraid. Do you know anyone who has the new MacBook Pro? Play around with it if possible. I have no issues with the MacBook Pro until I hit the 350 aux tracks mark on DP - then things start to lag a bit, and incrementally gets worse. But I have workarounds for that since mobility is a must for me.



FriFlo said:


> On top of that, I need some synth tracks and some pluggins to run on that machine. Nothing wild! The Mac mini is certainly not my first choice! I even despise the idea of buying such a style oriented, low functional and underpowered device! I am just annoyed by Microsoft and look for a not to expensive system to buy from Apple with the major work done by the slave PCs. Just to enjoy the luxury of continuing to use Mac OS and not have to deal with this MS BS!



Both the Mac Mini and the MacBook Pro will not frustrate you in that department (unless you decide to run everything on it without a slave PC connected to). They are great machines despite being undermined as "light" computers like many claim them to be. These new machines are not light at all...they are tiny little beasts, but I guess a lot of people worry about it since big is better right? A new laptop these days can outperform any pre 2013 desktop computer with ease. I often see pop producers driving 150 tracks with a massive amount of plugins in each channel in their MacBook pro's and I keep wondering - holy .... how is that even possible without freezing tracks? I'm genuinely shocked since I own a VEP slave PC to offload pretty much more than 50% of stuff I do on my main computer - when I'm not writing orchestral mockups...which then I exclusively rely on the VEP machine.

If you're really worried about getting a Mac mini or a laptop, wait till June if you have time.

The reason why I might make the switch from a Mac to a PC is the fact I can upgrade it without having to replace entire systems. It frees me from having to shell out $$$$$ every 3-4 years or so.

I still prefer Mac OS over Windows without hesitation, but I'm coming to a point that it is so difficult to put up with Apple's vision/direction that I might have to just deal with W10, and make some compromises. I'm still waiting to see if there's hope with their so-called "Mac Pro Modular" though.


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## MartinH. (Mar 5, 2019)

tack said:


> But the basic point is that antivirus software presents an additional attack surface and they're not exactly flawless. Their function requires low level OS hooks that an attacker can leverage to bypass normal OS security measures. Caution is warranted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the explanation, I can certainly see where you're coming from! And I have to agree about the performance hit, I do notice that things like windows boot take longer than they should. 

I haven't read the paper that you linked, but it must be over 10 years old, since the most recent year quoted in there is 2007. It may very well still hold true in its general findings, but you have to admit that by IT standards this is ancient. It's even older than my windows install... barely. :D

I guess I'm not worried about the attack vectors that my 3rd party antivirus software opens, because I'm knowingly leaving so many other vectors open out of convenience.


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## JohnG (Mar 5, 2019)

those who are interested might consider an iMac Pro. That thing is a monster.

If you scroll down on this page you can see performance comparisons with Logic and other programs: https://www.apple.com/imac-pro/


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Mar 5, 2019)

JohnG said:


> those who are interested might consider an iMac Pro. That thing is a monster.
> 
> If you scroll down on this page you can see performance comparisons with Logic and other programs: https://www.apple.com/imac-pro/


I really like my Mac Pro 2012
But if I had the 7K to spend on a fully packed iMac Pro, I would not buy one... infact i even warn people about where Apple 'could' be heading now.

By this I mean, I am not sure Apple is the company to invest in anymore... sadly
Unless you want a watch, phone or tablet :/


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## mscp (Mar 5, 2019)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> I really like my Mac Pro 2012
> But if I had the 7K to spend on a fully packed iMac Pro, I would not buy one... infact i even warn people about where Apple 'could' be heading now.
> 
> By this I mean, I am not sure Apple is the company to invest in anymore... sadly
> Unless you want a watch, phone or tablet :/



Could not have agreed more with you!

I really doubt people need to spend that much for the horse power for music regardless of track count, since most composers have slave machines anyway. The machine is a monster - yes! Absolutely! But everything is soldered on just like on their laptops. So if yours need repair after a while, you might as well give Apple your bank account's PIN number, hahahaha. Watch Louis Rossman on youtube.

I really dislike the all-in-one concept. I'm even thinking about trading my MacBook Pro to a monster Thinkpad later on, with swappable SSDs, ram, battery, etc, to act as my master daw. My MacBook Pro handles most things fine since I make the slave PC do pretty much most of the work for me, but sometimes I can see the wonderful AppleTM thermal throttling kicking in - which is enraging for such an expensive machine. Their cooling system is not as great as they claim it is.

Apple has lost the direction in terms of product lines. It used to make way more sense during Jobs era.

The only thing that pulls me back to Apple is their OS...which is slowly dying as well with all these new pointless features that, despite being great for the average office worker, is added garbage for media producers. 

My 2 pence.


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## Vonk (Mar 5, 2019)

Interesting to see how this thread has developed, it's as if things become a Mac v Windows debate with a kind of centrifugal force. I don't actually hate Windows, it is a powerful flexible OS, though I prefer previous incarnations to W10. But I do hate Windows updates, and what they have made that OS become - unreliable and disruptive to workflow. 
So on the one hand Microsoft, who never stop dicking around with their OS whether their customers want it or not. On the other hand Apple, with a built in obsolescence cycle and incompatibility from one model to the next to push sales of overpriced products. I've used both, and am left wishing that there was a stable, static OS that could be evolved so that we could just get on with the work.


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## d.healey (Mar 5, 2019)

Vonk said:


> I've used both, and am left wishing that there was a stable, static OS that could be evolved so that we could just get on with the work.


Try Linux Mint


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## tack (Mar 5, 2019)

d.healey said:


> Try Linux Mint


Unfortunately what people really mean when they say "I just wish there was a stable OS" is "I just wish there was a stable OS that ran all the applications I want to run and supports all my esoteric proprietary hardware" which in turn translates to "I will continue to run Windows/OSX but reserve the right to complain about how much it annoys me."

I am trapped in this latter camp. (Although Linux still runs on 90% of my home systems and network devices, which is to say it's what I use when I have a viable choice.)


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## Vonk (Mar 5, 2019)

d.healey said:


> Try Linux Mint


I have played with Linux on an old machine to see. But the DAW is more important than the OS, as is access to VSTi' s.


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## Vonk (Mar 5, 2019)

tack said:


> "I will continue to run Windows/OSX but reserve the right to complain about how much it annoys me."


That's about it!


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## d.healey (Mar 5, 2019)

Vonk said:


> I have played with Linux on an old machine to see. But the DAW is more important than the OS, as is access to VSTi' s.


Most Windows VSTs will run on GNU/Linux via LinVST. Not sure about your particular DAW but Ardour, Muse, Reaper, and Bitwig run natively.


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## kitekrazy (Mar 5, 2019)

I use the built in Windows AV. It's light on resources and you can configure it. I'd never use any 3rd party protection. They want to sell you a whole package and they leave you out of the configuration process.


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## kitekrazy (Mar 5, 2019)

JohnG said:


> I use a refurbished 12-core. The box is a 2009 Mac but the insides have all been replaced. There's a grad student from UCLA who did it and it rocks.
> 
> [edit: and a separate laptop, and an iMac for Pro Tools. And all the rest of my family mostly use Mac laptops, which can take a fair beating and still work.]



Just curious if a motherboard goes bad are they easy to replace or do they need to be repaired?


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## JohnG (Mar 5, 2019)

kitekrazy said:


> Just curious if a motherboard goes bad are they easy to replace or do they need to be repaired?



IDK -- I've had a number of PC motherboards go bad but never a Mac tower. I realise that's not the most comforting answer.


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## kitekrazy (Mar 5, 2019)

JohnG said:


> IDK -- I've had a number of PC motherboards go bad but never a Mac tower. I realise that's not the most comforting answer.



That would be my only concern. To me if one wanted to try the Mac side those cheese grater Macs seem like a bargain. I've seen some refurbished ones under $900 and would have to investigate how far they can be upgraded. They seem like magnificent machines.


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## mducharme (Mar 5, 2019)

The operating system is too big and complex to realistically expect Microsoft to never break anything. Microsoft is kind of stuck when it comes to the updates. Zero day vulnerabilities are extremely common, so usually the same day they patch something, hackers find the exploit and start to mass attack/infect systems. If users don't get the updates right away, their systems get infected. Immediate critical updates have become the "new normal" to avoid worse problems, and this isn't going to change.

Obviously I would not recommend allowing the computer to install a major Windows release when you have a deadline coming up. I usually delay such things until I am finished with all near term projects and it is safer to proceed.

Although this is certainly partially Microsoft's fault, it should be incumbent on the device manufacturers to test new versions of Windows with their devices and identify problems prior to an update breaking things. It would seem based on this that Native Instruments isn't doing that, and that is a bit concerning.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 5, 2019)

Reading this thread gave me a headache. The idea of “a thousand tracks” or “thousands of tracks” is amazing to me. Somewhere around track 250 I’d be trying to pry my eye out with a spoon.

Also, I thought OS evangelism went out with The Macarena.


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## mscp (Mar 6, 2019)

NYC Composer said:


> Reading this thread gave me a headache. The idea of “a thousand tracks” or “thousands of tracks” is amazing to me. Somewhere around track 250 I’d be trying to pry my eye out with a spoon.
> 
> Also, I thought OS evangelism went out with The Macarena.



Having a template with a track count in the thousands is very common in an "epic music" scenario. Extremely doable with modern day laptops or ITX machines if done the smart way - regardless whether it's a PC or a MAC.

You are entirely right. Doesn't really matter if it's a PC or a MAC. Learn your tool well, and get on with it.


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## MartinH. (Mar 6, 2019)

tack said:


> "I will continue to run Windows/OSX but reserve the right to complain about how much it annoys me."



Agreed, this is the closest we'll get to having "best of both worlds" after all! 


Edit:


Vonk said:


> Interesting to see how this thread has developed, it's as if things become a Mac v Windows debate with a kind of centrifugal force.


And because I can't just stand by without pouring further gasoline onto that fire... :D 
Just saw this on youtube:


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## mscp (Mar 6, 2019)

MartinH. said:


> Agreed, this is the closest we'll get to having "best of both worlds" after all!
> 
> 
> Edit:
> ...



That’s Apple without Jobs...


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