# Ok, so who actually makes a living off their music?



## epmalm (Apr 10, 2013)

If this has been posted a million times before, I apologize. 

I'm curious as to who actually can pay their bills solely on the money made from music. If not, what else did you do to keep yourself afloat?


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## nikolas (Apr 10, 2013)

Your question is quite vague actually...

If I was to answer truthfully and with a single word I'd say "ME". All of my living comes from music.

BUT

* I compose for computer games
* I composer classical music
* I publish classical music scores (contemporary classical music)
* I teach piano
* I teach theory, advanced theory, composition and music technology
* I play the piano in gigs

I don't think that I know many people (personally, not just by name) who make a solid living out of composing alone. I think that in media there may be a few, but in the classical world it's almost unheard of. I mean even Ligeti, Messiaen and other huge names used to teach and I'm not too sure they did it just for the kicks...


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## doctornine (Apr 10, 2013)

Yeah, I do.

It may not get a lot of love around these parts, but I write Library Music, pretty much exclusively. 

I've been full time for about 4 or 5 years. Prior to that, like most people, I was writing in my spare time while working a part time job.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 10, 2013)

Me, but a lot of it is royalties from past work.


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## RiffWraith (Apr 10, 2013)

Me.


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## SDCP (Apr 10, 2013)

Me as well. Write for 2 TV shows in Europe, but live in the U.S.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 10, 2013)

Moi. Note that I've been at this full-time (the best way to really make your dream come through, IMO) since 1996, though, and didn't hit the comfort zone until 8 or so years into it.


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## FriFlo (Apr 10, 2013)

Let's see, what the future brings ... last year I made about half from film music. Since 5 years I started teaching and founding a music school, but the times for music schools are bad ones. In 2012 the income of the music school shrunk by a great deal, a trend that still constinued in 2013. So I was really lucky, that 2012 was also my most successful year in composing in terms of money! I never thought it could happen that way, but film music actually saved my arse last year. I hope this trend will continue in 2013. I actually had some interesting requests already, but unfortunately the big budget one I lost to competitors. Tough times!


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## germancomponist (Apr 10, 2013)

Me too, since the late 80's. But it was and is not always very cool.... . o/~


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## Greg (Apr 10, 2013)

Most of my income comes from Library cues & licensing my own work to clients that come directly to me (self published cues).

I also work full time as an in-house composer writing trailer music (salary based).

And finally I sell albums of all my music on Bandcamp and itunes.

This game is all about stacking multiple streams of income be it royalties, licensing, work for hire, album sales. ect.


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## Uorbit (Apr 10, 2013)

I make a living composing music. Going on about 15 years now...


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## germancomponist (Apr 10, 2013)

Greg @ Wed Apr 10 said:


> Most of my income comes from Library cues & licensing my own work to clients that come directly to me (self published cues).
> 
> I also work full time as an in-house composer writing trailer music (salary based).
> 
> ...



Interesting! Arn't you Jason Kramer?


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## Greg (Apr 10, 2013)

germancomponist @ Wed Apr 10 said:


> Greg @ Wed Apr 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Most of my income comes from Library cues & licensing my own work to clients that come directly to me (self published cues).
> ...



No haha! Not me


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## germancomponist (Apr 10, 2013)

, and


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## Christof (Apr 10, 2013)

I will feed my family through my music until THEY win a grammy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqE9zIp0Muk


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## Jimbo 88 (Apr 10, 2013)

Me! since 1992 my only income has been from music composing...except for a couple of college teaching gigs (which does not pay nearly as well).


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 10, 2013)

Pretty much 50/50 with other work, mostly sound.


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## germancomponist (Apr 10, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Wed Apr 10 said:


> Pretty much 50/50 with other work, mostly sound.



Very cool! Sound is the most important thing!


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 10, 2013)

Of course there is "making a living" for a young single guy living in a relatively inexpensive city and "making a living" as the sole support of a family in a major city.


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## Daryl (Apr 10, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Apr 10 said:


> Of course there is "making a living" for a young single guy living in a relatively inexpensive city and "making a living" as the sole support of a family in a major city.


Yes, that's true. i also think that different people have different ideas about what level of income being financially successful is set at.

However, to answer the OP's question, I have been making my living from music since the 80s, and for the last 15 years it started off with orchestrating, conducting and a bit of composing, but these days it is virtually all composing. I usually conduct my own music, and occasionally do the odd favour by orchestrating for a friend, but not very often.

D


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## Mike Greene (Apr 10, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Apr 10 said:


> Of course there is "making a living" for a young single guy living in a relatively inexpensive city and "making a living" as the sole support of a family in a major city.


Exactly. And with my kid's fancy private school and my wife's taste for expensive clothes, I've had to supplement my income with gigolo work. Most of my clients are wives of other composers who are locked in their studios 24/7 working on some film, so I figure this counts as making money from music as well.


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## FriFlo (Apr 10, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Apr 10 said:


> Of course there is "making a living" for a young single guy living in a relatively inexpensive city and "making a living" as the sole support of a family in a major city.


Aren't women working these days themselves? Well, probably only those young guys' women! :mrgreen:


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## reddognoyz (Apr 10, 2013)

Mike Greene @ Wed Apr 10 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Apr 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Of course there is "making a living" for a young single guy living in a relatively inexpensive city and "making a living" as the sole support of a family in a major city.
> ...



I actually laughed at this.... and I'm a full time composer with a wife and 3 kids living/working in Manhattan... I never laugh. Actually I called my wife and checked in on her, you know see what she was up to,... then I laughed.


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## epmalm (Apr 10, 2013)

Hmm, sounds as though marriage/children is the biggest obstacle in having enough time to make a living off of music :D


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## Jimbo 88 (Apr 10, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Apr 10 said:


> Of course there is "making a living" for a young single guy living in a relatively inexpensive city and "making a living" as the sole support of a family in a major city.




OK I'll re-qualify then. I live in the suburbs of a major city, live in a nice neighborhood with doctors, lawyers, airplane pilots and stock traders on my block. I make enough money to have to pay for my kid's college education. I cut my own lawn, don't drive fancy cars, but I am way wealthier than my father ever was. I want to hang in Mike Greene's hood....he seems to be having more fun.


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## stonzthro (Apr 10, 2013)

I do - have since 1998.

It's been rough at times, but persistence pays off.

I have a wife and 5 kids but no fancy cars. 

Mike's a gigolo - uh, no surprise there - I guess that explains why all my kids can draw!


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## Patrick de Caumette (Apr 10, 2013)

epmalm @ Wed Apr 10 said:


> Hmm, sounds as though marriage/children is the biggest obstacle in having enough time to make a living off of music :D



Not necessarily.

However, you do need to partner with someone that is willing to put up with the long hours of absence.

Also, the necessity of earning enough money to support a family can be a great motivator to go out there and get gigs.
Coasting is no longer an option...


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## Mike Marino (Apr 10, 2013)

Writing music is 25% of my income; playing music is 75% of my income.


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## Frederick Russ (Apr 10, 2013)

epmalm @ Wed Apr 10 said:


> If this has been posted a million times before, I apologize.
> 
> I'm curious as to who actually can pay their bills solely on the money made from music. If not, what else did you do to keep yourself afloat?



Please add me in the mix too. Everything is either music directly or music related in some capacity. Your question has been posted quite a few times yes. 

I assume you're asking for a reason. If you're working a day job, use that time and opportunity to really learn your craft and discover what you can do to improve. Its all about intention, focus and the willingness to learn and fan your passion. There are remote tutors for composition, orchestration, arrangement, and even MIDI mockup if you're truly serious. A lot can be gained here at VI too - most of all, friendships with those who, if you demonstrate a humble willingness to grow, will want to help.


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## Rob (Apr 10, 2013)

Music pays my bills, through live playing, teaching, arranging and composing... As my age goes up I'm thinking to invest more on composing, it seems a better fit for an old guy than playing in clubs... Also, since I teach jazz piano, I'm basically working against myself...


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## lee (Apr 11, 2013)

Rob @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> Also, since I teach jazz piano, I'm basically working against myself...



Haha :-D 

And yeah, you're really old. Almost as old as Big Bob!


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## impressions (Apr 11, 2013)

I don't qualify as a new york or boston rich composer, but i live in a centered city and sustain a wife and 1 kid(another on the way), half my income is from teaching and the other half is composing, lately i've been doing some sound design also, not sure if that counts.


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## Waywyn (Apr 11, 2013)

Composing and arranging since around 10 years now and successfully being able to sustain my wife and my daughter and being able to live in a nice quarter in Hamburg, Germany.


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## rocking.xmas.man (Apr 11, 2013)

doctornine @ 10.4.2013 said:


> Yeah, I do.
> 
> It may not get a lot of love around these parts, but I write Library Music, pretty much exclusively.
> 
> I've been full time for about 4 or 5 years. Prior to that, like most people, I was writing in my spare time while working a part time job.



I think this is great. but how does this work? Do you have a secure income because of this? How can someone get into doing library music?


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## Jimbo 88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Seems to me the only way you can make a sustainable living as a music composer is to work with projects that generate royalties. I was lucky enough to stumble into that world. 

Game scoring worries me a little as I see very little way not be a "Flash in the Pan" type of career. Hot and cold...very hard to sustain because there are no royalties.

So if you are trying to figure if music composing is a viable way to sustain a lifestyle, look to music jobs that pay royalties.

just my little thoughts....


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## Brobdingnagian (Apr 11, 2013)

Jimbo 88 @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> Game scoring worries me a little as I see very little way not be a "Flash in the Pan" type of career. Hot and cold...very hard to sustain because there are no royalties.



I must sat this has always been disappointing to see. Even a fraction of a dollar per title sold, or some tiered, comprable system of backend participation. I don't know. An absolutely mazing medium for creative expression, though...


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## Frederick Russ (Apr 11, 2013)

Jimbo 88 @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> Game scoring worries me a little as I see very little way not be a "Flash in the Pan" type of career. Hot and cold...very hard to sustain because there are no royalties.
> 
> So if you are trying to figure if music composing is a viable way to sustain a lifestyle, look to music jobs that pay royalties.
> .



Really good point. To this day, I still get paid for cues I did years ago for music libraries. It all adds up. But if a game music op comes around however, its still considered money


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## Waywyn (Apr 11, 2013)

Jimbo 88 @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> So if you are trying to figure if music composing is a viable way to sustain a lifestyle, look to music jobs that pay royalties.



Think about this one. If you have steady gigs and can write license music you eventually get good money, but it always depends on usages.

If you have good gigs in the gaming world and you have the fortune to work on some decent titles you instantly have much much more money than on licensing.

I don't wanna get into numbers too much, but it should be obvious that there is no difference really. You have to keep up the writing for royalty based tracks, because those tracks fade out slowly. The same goes for game music. It is much more right away but fades much quicker. In the end both is good!


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## Brobdingnagian (Apr 11, 2013)

Frederick Russ @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> Jimbo 88 @ Thu Apr 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Game scoring worries me a little as I see very little way not be a "Flash in the Pan" type of career. Hot and cold...very hard to sustain because there are no royalties.
> ...



I believe what I was really driving at is that I am disappointed that early game composers (and their agents/managers) weren't able to establish backend participation as a precedent, though I would like to believe they tried (and are still trying).....


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## Brobdingnagian (Apr 11, 2013)

Waywyn @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> Jimbo 88 @ Thu Apr 11 said:
> 
> 
> > So if you are trying to figure if music composing is a viable way to sustain a lifestyle, look to music jobs that pay royalties.
> ...



Sorry Waywyn, our posts crossed. Yes both are good, indeed. But can't we have all of the pieces of the pie? Or at least a bite of each? Good money upfront AND backend participation? Is that asking for too much? I mean this with sincerity, not being snarky....


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## germancomponist (Apr 11, 2013)

In the very past I did a lot of cover music productions for the so called "B-market". It was funny to do this and it was easy money.


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## Waywyn (Apr 11, 2013)

Brobdingnagian @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> Waywyn @ Thu Apr 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Jimbo 88 @ Thu Apr 11 said:
> ...



No you are totally right! This would be just awesome. Some decent payment for the direct work and then some more based on sales. In return it would be also awesome when doing license music. I mean, think about it for a moment: You work your sweet butt off to get out some tracks and then within 6-12 months you receive your first check, saying: 5,99 :D ... of course it builts up over time, but wouldn't it be awesome to have something similar going on in the license music category? I wouldn't mind buyouts and in case some track hits the ceiling you get something on top


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## BoulderBrow (Apr 15, 2013)

Interesting reading guys, out of curiosity. Do any of you delegate set hours of work or holiday periods where work is a no go? I read how professional composing is so time consuming, how do you manage to fit life (the bits inbetween!) in?


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## impressions (Apr 15, 2013)

you don't, the only time you can squeeze normal people stuff is between projects.


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## Daryl (Apr 15, 2013)

BoulderBrow @ Mon Apr 15 said:


> Interesting reading guys, out of curiosity. Do any of you delegate set hours of work or holiday periods where work is a no go? I read how professional composing is so time consuming, how do you manage to fit life (the bits inbetween!) in?


Yes, there are times that I won't work, not only for holidays, but also during the week, if I want to go to ping pong training, or just do something else. I occasionally work evenings and weekends, but not very often.

However, it all depends on what kind of music and for what client whether or not it is possible to be in control. For example, I never agree to do a pitch for an advert when I'm told it has to be in for Monday morning, and the call comes on a Friday. I guess that this is just common sense. :wink: 

D


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## XT26 (Apr 15, 2013)

Daryl @ Tue Apr 16 said:


> BoulderBrow @ Mon Apr 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting reading guys, out of curiosity. Do any of you delegate set hours of work or holiday periods where work is a no go? I read how professional composing is so time consuming, how do you manage to fit life (the bits inbetween!) in?
> ...


Ha, just spent all weekend working on a track for a trailer..... no common sense here!

At least being 17 hours ahead of LA time I got an extra day to work on it


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## charlieclouser (Apr 15, 2013)

The first composer I worked for, as a programmer back in the 1980s, taught me a good rule of thumb:

Keep your operating expenses for any gig under one-third of your fees. This means all of your living expenses, employee salaries, gear purchases, studio rent... EVERYTHING you'll spend money on for the duration of the gig should be paid for with one-third of the up-front money from that gig. You gotta figure you'll spend two-thirds of your time unemployed, and you'll need that cash to float across the gaps. 

The royalties from any gig are for later, once you're out of the game... aka retirement.

Since I've been doing tv and film scoring, I've held to this rule pretty well and it's worked out nicely.

I also don't block out time when I won't work - this practice wouldn't fly in tv and movie land. For six years I had one hour-long show that dubbed on Mondays, and another that dubbed on Tuesdays - so my weekends were very much NOT time off - more like a mad scramble to get things into shape for delivery!

If you're working as a freelancer, don't worry - eventually you'll have plenty of time off whether you want it or not!


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## Frederick Russ (Apr 16, 2013)

Jimbo 88 @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> Game scoring worries me a little as I see very little way not be a "Flash in the Pan" type of career. Hot and cold...very hard to sustain because there are no royalties.



By the way an interesting note is that this too can be negotiated contractually depending upon reaching a milestone (reaching a sales quota of 100,000 copies for example could be worked out so you could get a $10K bonus, etc). You have to ask and negotiate for what you want in contract deliberations.


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## Jimbo 88 (Apr 16, 2013)

BoulderBrow @ Mon Apr 15 said:


> Interesting reading guys, out of curiosity. Do any of you delegate set hours of work or holiday periods where work is a no go? I read how professional composing is so time consuming, how do you manage to fit life (the bits inbetween!) in?



For a long time this was a little problem for me. I worked 360 days a year for a long time. It was not so bad 'cause my studio is in my house. I ate (still do) all my meals with my family and break occasionally to drive a kid somewhere. 

Even when i"m not at work I still have a hard time not thinking about work. Like...If i can get the next section scored i can be ahead of schedule, or should I try this style in this scene would it be better. I always want to get back to work.

Things have slowed for me the last couple of years so its not such an issue, but i have found that If I pull back a little and not do things like work on Christmas Day, I still make my deadlines. So perhaps the crazy hours are not as necessary. 

But it's hard not to..'cause that is where my passion lies. i like to compose. I'm not sure what else to do with myself.


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## BoulderBrow (Apr 16, 2013)

> but i have found that If I pull back a little and not do things like work on Christmas Day, I still make my deadlines



Says a lot about how many hours you work! Respect to your commitment to the art o-[][]-o


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Apr 17, 2013)

Not really no. I supplement my income with music, but I work 40 hours a week at CDB.

That being said, I probably COULD if I really wanted to. But it takes lot of networking to make a decent living, and the pay fluctuates.

I consider myself a good musician and composer, but I would absolutely prefer a steady paycheck that doesn't change, benefits, 401k, etc. through a "normal" job.

If I were to try to get all of that while doing music 40-80 hours a week, I'm not sure it would be a comfortable way to live. Buying private insurance alone would be very costly. Living without it is not an option for me (and well..the entire US as of now)


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Apr 17, 2013)

I also wanted to point out that if you do music for a living 100%, and you've never done it before. Prepare (at least for me) for a huge load of productivity followed by "this just feels like work". You will lose some of the fun factor when creating music.


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## Daryl (Apr 17, 2013)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Wed Apr 17 said:


> I also wanted to point out that if you do music for a living 100%, and you've never done it before. Prepare (at least for me) for a huge load of productivity followed by "this just feels like work". You will lose some of the fun factor when creating music.


Actually I disagree. I think that whilst it may just be work, the minute you start losing the fun factor is the minute that you should give up. Certainly in my case if it ever gets to the stage that I'm not enjoying what I do, I will "retire" immediately. Music is too precious to me to risk growing to hate it. However, that's also one reason why I don't work stupid hours these days. That way lies madness. :wink: 

D


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## Ed (Apr 17, 2013)

Jimbo 88 @ Thu Apr 11 said:


> Game scoring worries me a little as I see very little way not be a "Flash in the Pan" type of career. Hot and cold...very hard to sustain because there are no royalties.



While that is true, game scoring typically pays very well. So in a few months or less you can in theory earn an entire years worth of income that you'd normally receive from a LOT of other non-game work.

With a possible choice of a combination of game scoring and library music to me seems one of the most potentially lucrative in terms of long term income in the form of the back end royalties and the larger up front money from the games. Some really big AAA games that need a lot of music require many many months or even over a years worth of work because game development can last years and years, but they usually pay huge amounts because of how much music is involved. If you're being paid upwards of $1000 a minute and there's 2 or even 3 hours of music or more you can probably see why the big game guys probably dont worry as much about the lack of royalties.


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## Arbee (Apr 17, 2013)

Daryl @ Thu Apr 18 said:


> ...I think that whilst it may just be work, the minute you start losing the fun factor is the minute that you should give up. Certainly in my case if it ever gets to the stage that I'm not enjoying what I do, I will "retire" immediately. Music is too precious to me to risk growing to hate it...


Exactly the reason I walked away from it nearly 20 years ago, and the reason I'm getting back into it now :D 

.


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## Greg (Apr 17, 2013)

Daryl @ Wed Apr 17 said:


> Nathan Allen Pinard @ Wed Apr 17 said:
> 
> 
> > I also wanted to point out that if you do music for a living 100%, and you've never done it before. Prepare (at least for me) for a huge load of productivity followed by "this just feels like work". You will lose some of the fun factor when creating music.
> ...



I'm not sure I necessarily agree, it takes a lot of hard work and coping with annoyances to be successful in the field. It's important to deal with the grunt work, crazy hours, crazy clients, ect. Granted if it goes on for so long that you start loosing your passion then you should take a step back.


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## Daryl (Apr 17, 2013)

Greg @ Wed Apr 17 said:


> Daryl @ Wed Apr 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Nathan Allen Pinard @ Wed Apr 17 said:
> ...


However, you have to ask yourself why you are putting up with crazy hours and crazy clients, if it is only a job. Surely it has to be more than that to risk wasting your life and ruining family relationships and friendships?

FWIW whilst some of my clients might be crazy, I certainly won't do stupid hours and try to keep to insane deadlines, and I wouldn't describe myself as unsuccessful.

D


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## Greg (Apr 17, 2013)

Daryl @ Wed Apr 17 said:


> However, you have to ask yourself why you are putting up with crazy hours and crazy clients, if it is only a job. Surely it has to be more than that to risk wasting your life and ruining family relationships and friendships?
> 
> FWIW whilst some of my clients might be crazy, I certainly won't do stupid hours and try to keep to insane deadlines, and I wouldn't describe myself as unsuccessful.
> 
> D



True, I'm just saying that dealing with the stressors, and putting in effort against your will so to speak is usually a pre-requisite to be successful. Being able to make a living from music or achieve your wild fantastic desires with your artwork should be hard earned and strived for against many trials and tribulations. It certainly depends on your goals but giving up just because you have a period of dissension regarding your music career shouldn't even be an option if you truly love it right? 

Embrace the struggle, thats what makes dreams worth having.


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## Brobdingnagian (Apr 17, 2013)

Ed @ Wed Apr 17 said:


> If you're being paid upwards of $1000 a minute and there's 2 or even 3 hours of music or more you can probably see why the big game guys probably dont worry as much about the lack of royalties.



Ed, I am saying this in a humble, constructive dialogue way - I would very much like to hear what other working people think. To me even with 3 hours of delivered music at this rate (equalling $180K) for an entire year's work - and I do know it entails A LOT of work, just doesn't seem like enough to dismiss the thought of residuals. 

Frederick Russ chimed in either on this thread or another with the very rational and reasonable idea of getting paid bonuses based on the games potential success. In lieu of royalties, this seems like a risk-shared win-win. Although, creative accounting on the studio's part might make this difficult to ever work in the composer's favour.

Again, my humble opinion. I could indeed be the one who is being unreasonable here...

-B


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## Greg (Apr 17, 2013)

Brobdingnagian @ Wed Apr 17 said:


> Ed @ Wed Apr 17 said:
> 
> 
> > If you're being paid upwards of $1000 a minute and there's 2 or even 3 hours of music or more you can probably see why the big game guys probably dont worry as much about the lack of royalties.
> ...




I guess the magical formula is to calculate that amount of music and imagine if it was all written as library cues. Would you make more in the long run from sync fees and royalties from 3 hours of well made library music.. I'd say definitely, assuming you get a solid publisher. 

Also don't take for granted the credits on doing the game score gives your name. That will probably lead to bigger projects and bigger $$$


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## Ed (Apr 17, 2013)

Brobdingnagian @ Wed Apr 17 said:


> Ed, I am saying this in a humble, constructive dialogue way - I would very much like to hear what other working people think. To me even with 3 hours of delivered music at this rate (equalling $180K) for an entire year's work - and I do know it entails A LOT of work, just doesn't seem like enough to dismiss the thought of residuals.



On AAA games you probably are getting more than $1000 a minute, also I would think if you're in a long development cycle and hired early that wont necessarily mean you're working flat out for a year or more where you can only work on that, its just the development time itself is a long time that you're committed to. 

Consider writing library music or scoring films and how much you could earn from that, its all big question marks unless you're really writing for big movies and TV and in which case you're probably being paid very well anyway. Otherwise its a long waiting game, where most libraries pay nothing to publish your tracks these days and you may have to wait years to see substantial income from those tracks. To score games means you potentially earn a large amount of money for a relatively short time guaranteed once you're hired. In my opinion, this crossed with library music provides a good way to get good long term stability and maximise your income. 

Obviously composers that specialise in only game music are doing it for a reason, but that doesnt stop one from dipping in and out of fields like TV or Ad work. I just think a composer staying away from game composing because they dont like the idea of not getting royalties is a poor financial decision as game music can be very lucrative. Most crafts dont get royalties, so its not like music is only worth something if you get a royalty for it.



> Frederick Russ chimed in either on this thread or another with the very rational and reasonable idea of getting paid bonuses based on the games potential success. In lieu of royalties, this seems like a risk-shared win-win. Although, creative accounting on the studio's part might make this difficult to ever work in the composer's favour



I suspect negotiating royalties for games is still rare, possibly after you have a lot of credits and influence maybe or when working on lower budget titles that can better afford to pay if their game does well. It would be nice if this became more wide spread, without reducing upfront fees.


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## Brobdingnagian (Apr 17, 2013)

Ed & Greg, these are all very good points and I appreciate you both taking the time to go off topic for a post and for sharing your thoughts and information.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Apr 18, 2013)

It's possible to get royalties with some publishers/developers. Usually with indie games, or any project that has a very low startup cost.


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