# My Initial and Undoubtedly Temporary Problems with HS



## stevenson-again (Oct 23, 2010)

just very quickly, in case i missed something.

i seem to recall there was an instrument update for HS an i right?

because boy have i found some errors in the programming with what i have here. it's pretty funny. the round robin pizz on violin 1 is all over the place - some notes don't play and others are not the notes they should be. but i dunno maybe i am being fussy. what's a semitone between friends. 

also the spiccs are really really rocky. i'll post you a clip i recorded when i get a chance. it's perfectly quantized and you can hear the nice upbows and down bows but the differences between them are so great that at some stages it almost slips into swing time - should be straight eighths.

i have been following the HS discussions pretty closely and not come across anything like this. i mean its unusable...

by golly i do WANT to use it though. what a sound.

another annoyance. the modwheel (or infact cc11 which i have mapped to the modwheel) is affecting volume on the non-modwheel patches such as staccato and pizz. that's a problem.

cc7 seems to have no affect on PLAY at all.

i am also not having a great time with the manual - short on info i need, long info i don't....but that could jst be me.

any help would deeply appreciated and would earn the helper virtual back rubs and a foot massage.


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## José Herring (Oct 23, 2010)

Can't help you but I'd like to know if you have Diamond or Gold?


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## Nick Phoenix (Oct 23, 2010)

*Re: Oh dear - Big Problems with HS*

Something is wrong. Not the programs.


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## Animus (Oct 23, 2010)

Give us a repro.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 23, 2010)

*Re: Oh dear - Big Problems with HS*



> Something is wrong. Not the programs.



sure. this is so strange i can't believe it made it through so i am wondering what it could be. Hard to think what else it could be though:

here is the http://idisk.mac.com/rohan.stevenson/Public/stuff/DodgySpiccato.mp3 (Dodgy Spiccato)

and here is the http://idisk.mac.com/rohan.stevenson/Public/stuff/DodgyPizzicato.mp3 (Dodgy Pizz)

The png shows what the notes should be.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 23, 2010)

there must be something wrong. it's affecting nearly all of the patches - it must be something midi related, but as to which side its hard to say. i'm rebooting plogue first, then i'll try logic.

i would love to know whether there is a solution to the modwheel (swapped with expression) problem. i don't want the modwheel to control volume - only dynamics.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 23, 2010)

the port and slur is not working on some patches. if you play the notes to closely together the port/slur sample is not played and you don't hear the second note. this is just playing single instrument with nothing else going on. i am really perplexed. i have bypassed all my routing in plogue and going straight to the instrument.

it's working ok with some of the instruments.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 23, 2010)

reloading them seems to fix it. why didn;t it load properly in the first place?


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## Animus (Oct 23, 2010)

oh! That's just a feature of Play. Randomization, so things don't play back the same way everytime.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 23, 2010)

i so don't want to have to drop HS. but i have spent the whole day trying to get this thing to go and its past midnight. i really hoped i would be able to get it to run in time to finish my big project off because it sounds soooo good. but i am going to have to give up on it i think. such a shame.

it's too quirky and with too many problems. i don't know why the spiccs are so uneven...but i don't think i have any more time to find out. sigh. i was warned.


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## shakuman (Oct 24, 2010)

*Re: Oh dear - Big Problems with HS*

Sorry for asking !!

Shaku..


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## stevenson-again (Oct 24, 2010)

*Re: Oh dear - Big Problems with HS*

thanks for the responses guys. one of the reasons for posting is just having a shoulder to cry on. i am so desperate to have this work - it really sounds magnificent. and it almost is....i can play back my string parts that used older templates in plogue, and all the articulations switch properly and i don't have to do very much fiddling to get it in the ball park of what i had.



> Urgh, sounds extremely frustrating. Changing mid-project seems to be a magnet for obscure problems, eh?



absolutely. TBH it was pretty foolish to even have bought it and stick my hand into the hornets nest mid project. i do so badly want that sound though....



> Oh, and one more question... do I understand right that there are no default CC1 dynamics patches or have I misunderstood?



dynamics are controlled by cc11 in east west. but whereas in the trumpet, because it is kontakt you can reassign the modwheel, you can't do that in PLAY. it's no biggy - because you can either use a transformer in logic or a similar thing in plogue to swap cc1 and cc11 around. this is important for me so that all my instruments are consistent.

the big problem is that cc11 (swapped to cc1 for me) is controlling the volume of non-dynamic fade patches such as staccato and pizzicato. this is bad, because:

- i have to set the level using cc1 instead of cc7. what i want/need is for cc7 to set the level of the instrument and for cc1(cc11) to control the dynamics.
- it means that if i want to use a global controller for dynamics (i have a lane for string expression which controls the whole section) then automating say violins 1&2 playing arco is going to affect the violas, cellos and basses playing staccato. i could put filters on those instances i suppose but it is turning into mighty big faff.



> Reinstall the software, latest version and get the latest programs. How much ram do you have? And restart your computer.



i will do that thanks nick. i downloaded the updater straightaway, but i am wondering if there is an update for gold instruments or something? incidentally are there any non-niente patches? i'm finding the niente is a bit severe....ie the dynamic curve at the lower end from about 30 down is too soft or dips to being nothing too severely. i think it should probably be more of parabolic curve.

i have 18Gb RAM and at this stage i am only loading HS just to get that side of things going. initially i had problems precisely because i did not restart - the PLAY memory server would not work. could i suggest that your installer recommend restarting? you could just update your updater as it were.



> To get real command of HS' effects, one really has to read the manual. Some of the legato and other effects like this are velocity sensitive on some patches.



i have been doing that but i have been getting very strange results. firstly, on the patches that do work, they do work but the velocity needs to be quite high in order to be in slur territory rather than port. on LASS its a bit lower. also HS has patches where they have blended in marcato or staccato samples into the normal slur+port patches so that at high velocities you get a bit more bite on the attack. it's a good idea but for some reason the sustained part of the notes in those patches aren't responding to dynamic level cc's (cc1 converted to cc11 for me). the other patches are so it is all very strange.

it may be that something is going wrong with the loading of instruments that are saved in plogue. if i reload the instruments (the ones i have tried this with) they work. but i am not sure yet whether that is all instruments, whether that cures the wrong notes being played, or notes being skipped or the notes being played back at the wrong time.

i might have another wee play at the end of the day to day but to be honest i am out of time. i shouldn't really have wasted a day on this in the first place, but when you get a new toy it's hard to resist.


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## rpaillot (Oct 24, 2010)

*Re: Oh dear - Big Problems with HS*

What is your latency ? I've noticed PLAY is unusable with a latency smaller or greater than 1024. Otherwise I get weird rhythms. Like what you seem to have...

This is a issue i've been used to, but East West should really consider to fix it ! i'm not the only one to have this issue ... and to tell you the truth I've noticed this issue since Play 2 version, with play 1.2.5 it was perfect, you could change latency as you wish .


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## stevenson-again (Oct 24, 2010)

well it was the same at both 512 and 1024. plgoue was set to 2048 so i wonder if it was that.

latency is not an issue for me personally because of the way i compose. provided things play back in time....


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## Nick Phoenix (Oct 24, 2010)

*Re: Oh dear - Big Problems with HS*

Reboot computer. Load play standalone. Set latency to 256 or 512. Load one instrument. Is it working fine?


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## stevenson-again (Oct 24, 2010)

*Re: Oh dear - Big Problems with HS*

hi nick,

it's so good of you to respond here. i think i am going to have to get in touch with your technical support as well.

i have not re-installed yet, but i have rebooted the computer a couple of times since last night.

these clips were made using the HS standalone with a buffer setting of 512 over the IAC bus. there are no tempo changes in the sequence - it's just straight 8ths. the first clip was on 25% dynamics and the second is fixed dynamics.

i think you would agree that it is a bit too rocky for tight performance - but by golly gee i love all the detail i hear in the individual samples and beautifully balanced sound. no harshness but plenty of air and grit. i love the fact that all i have to do is add a touch of eq.

i REALLY want to use this library. i would love to get to the bottom of why it's behaving the way it is at the moment.

http://idisk.mac.com/rohan.stevenson/Public/stuff/HS_Spic_IAC_Standalone.mp3 (Spic 1)

http://idisk.mac.com/rohan.stevenson/Public/stuff/HS_Spic_IAC_Standalone2.mp3 (Spic 2)

if it was just a tad tighter. in context in might not be so bad. do you know what it's certain pitches seem to be worse than others. in these examples it's concert F. one of the samples in there must have too much air at the start.

i discover issues like this in other libraries too but because PLAY is closed i can;t get in there and edit it myself.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 24, 2010)

Blimey - is that hard quantized?


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## stevenson-again (Oct 24, 2010)

*Re: Oh dear - Big Problems with HS*



> But Rohan, but I suspect you edit, use extended quantize parameters etc. so that a 5 note chord does not have all 5 notes hitting at i.e. 5 1 1 1, correct?



no not correct. a particular frustration i have with sampled orhcestral libraires from the perspective of an ex-orchestral musician is that even when they are hard quantized, they still do not play with particularly good ensemble. that's because developers quite rightly want to preserve the attack, but the attacks differ slightly from sample to sample. in an orchestral setting, musicians compensate for the latency of the attack of the note of their instrument by either delaying or anticipating. a live orchestra will sound right on it (even less than A grade orchestras can do this).

i only use humanizing type things on piano and harp parts. i put in time-based expression using tempo changes or occasionally moving notes manually. certain effects i might play in - flourishes and arpeggiations etc.

another frustration is tuning. actually that is another point i wanted to bring up with HS. some of the sustains in HS - particularly in the violas - are very flat. i had to tune it up quite a long way to get it in tune with my other samples, and in fact with itself (ie other sections of the strings).

man - i do NOT want to bag libraries like this constantly. HS must have been a massive amount of work just to get it over the finishing line. and it is recorded right. absolutely right. just add a wee bit of reverb and it sounds like it should - apart from out of time and out of tune...sigh....


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## Dan Mott (Oct 24, 2010)

*Re: Oh dear - Big Problems with HS*

Yes.

I will say aswell that some shorts are in time and some out of time depending on which round robin is played. I alter this by resetting the RRs and certain points so my note timing won't change when the shorts are playing.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 25, 2010)

*Re: Oh dear - Big Problems with HS*



> HS is not out of tune. Something is very wrong here and I don't know what it is. The smart thing to do is to contact tech support first.



duly done - though i did want to check to see whether or not other people had the same problems or whether i had missed an update or something.

incidentally, i made a quicktime of the tuner listening to Violas Leg Slur + Port LT 12 playing E2 and it's out of tune.

i'll be able send all of this to your technical support as soon as i have had a response from them. in the mean time to satisfy yourself, why don't you load up that patch and play that note and have a look at the tuning.

it sounds gorgeous, but here it is out of tune. i did this with the standalone receiving midi over the IAC bus.


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## rpaillot (Oct 25, 2010)

*Re: Oh dear - Big Problems with HS*

You said you use IAC. Does it happen when you use play as a plugin in Logic Pro ?


I've NEVER been able to use IAC properly without crashes, weird playing, etc...


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## rpaillot (Oct 25, 2010)

And, second questions, did you try using the "tight" articulations ?


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## stevenson-again (Oct 25, 2010)

*Re: Oh dear - Big Problems with HS*



> And, second questions, did you try using the "tight" articulations ?



yes. actually something i just thought of replying here is that maybe the articulations tight and loose are mixed up....i should try the loose ones to see if they are tighter...



> You said you use IAC. Does it happen when you use play as a plugin in Logic Pro ?
> 
> I've NEVER been able to use IAC properly without crashes, weird playing, etc...



actually that's worth a shot. i have tried the plug in logic but not tested for these problems. IAC works fine but you have to make sure you don't have a midi loop. it's bug with logic (or the protocol not sure which). you have to cable the bus into a monitor or some dead object in logic in order to stop the midi loop. if you use IAC with any application it will cause the receiving application to crash. PLAY, VEpro, plogue...anything.


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## Animus (Oct 25, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Mon Oct 25 said:


> ok - just tried in logic and its the same. however, i think where i was using spiccs before i should probably be using staccatissimo, and save the spiccs for more colouristic staccato things. the staccatissimo is nice and even. that would do me.
> 
> however, the violas are definitely out of tune. they start on 0 then drift down as far as 15 cents. this is with everything - in logic, plogue or standalone. that's a bit more of a problem. whereas where i have encountered dodgy notes here and there with other libraries such as spitfire and requiem, i have been able to get into the patches to tweak them. i can't do that with PLAY.
> 
> ...



HS is definitely not perfectly in tune. I've noticed some pitchy stuff in a few areas, usually a note starting out of tune and then finding it's pitch.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 25, 2010)

> usually a note starting out of tune and then finding it's pitch.



As do real string players actually.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 25, 2010)

*Re: Oh dear - Big Problems with HS*



> As do real string players actually


.

we are talking about something else though. i was in the middle of saying when i side tracked myself a few posts ago, that one frustration with sample libraries is intonation. sample libraries are pitched at tempered tuning but real players in bands tune their notes to be perfectly in tune harmonically. sounds soooo much better.

you can actually get logic to do the same thing using hermode tuning, but it is dependent on it detecting the harmony properly which it doesn't very well. when it gets it right though wow -what a difference.

you should try it on brass parts. it pitches the mediant flatter and the 5th a little sharper on a major chord and it is amazing the difference it makes. i dabbled with it for a while but gave up because if it can;t figure out the chord properly and messes up the tuning it sounds awful.

the problem with HS at the moment is, that it is finding the pitch, but that pitch is flat. it starts in tune and then settles flat.

what i think is going on is that when they were creating the library, they used some sort of autotuning mechanism, which detected the starting portion of the sample and tuned it accordingly. but because the players started sharp they settled on the correct pitch lower than the first part of the note. but whatever autotuning mechanism they used (even if it was their own ears) shifted the pitch so that the first part of the note was in tune, but unfortunately meant that the main body of the note was flat.

it's pretty easy to see for yourself if you have HS. just load up the viola patch and play C2 - E4. from E4 onwards the pitch seems ok.

i noticed this because i played back an old cue and against the VSL triple horn the tuning was horrible. checking with the tuner showed it up.

i would really like HS to have a look at this because it ought to be a bit better than this, but i am not yet despairing: there is the fine tuning option in PLAY and while it might push some things out in some places it might be possible to find a happy medium.


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## Nick Phoenix (Oct 25, 2010)

*Re: Oh dear - Big Problems with HS*

HS was not tuned at all. It is exactly as was played. And the sections were amazing in this respect. Please be more specific about which patch has problems. There are so many. Every time someone has reported major tuning problems so far, it was the other library they were mixing with, that was out of tune and not HS. I'm not saying that is the case here, but I need more info.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 25, 2010)

*Re: Oh dear - Big Problems with HS*



> HS was not tuned at all. It is exactly as was played. And the sections were amazing in this respect. Please be more specific about which patch has problems. There are so many. Every time someone has reported major tuning problems so far, it was the other library they were mixing with, that was out of tune and not HS. I'm not saying that is the case here, but I need more info.



i did give very specific info. there was no other library loaded.

It is the Viola sustain patch, specifically the Violas Leg Slur + Port LT 12 and i made a quicktime of the tuner if you are interested.

just check it out for yourself. if you get a different result than i do here, then there is some other issue at work. the cellos were flat too, but not by as much.

i could make a recording of the bit of the cue where i noticed it. it was very noticable. i am happy to help in anyway possible. i have sent your technical support an email and i am waiting to hear from them. i have mp3s the quicktime i mentioned and some midi files ready to send. believe me i want to use this library as badly as you don't want hear moaning about problems with it...


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## Nick Phoenix (Oct 25, 2010)

*Re: Oh dear - Big Problems with HS*

Yes Id like to hear it. I use HS every day and have yet to hear any tuning issues that were a problem. But if there is something musically problematic, we will fix it. A tuner is never very accurate when looking at sectional samples, by the way.


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## Mike Connelly (Oct 27, 2010)

Rohan (it is Rohan?), do you have anyone else you know with the library so that you could copy the library data over? Since it's a hard drive install, it would be good to rule out the possibility that something got corrupted on your install disk.

I've previously suggested with libraries shipping on hard drives to include checksums so that users with issues can make sure the library itself is fine.


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## rpaillot (Oct 27, 2010)

*Re: Oh dear - Big Problems with HS*

Yep. ultimate soundbanks do that with their library , there are MD5 checksum on their website.

Although checksuming almost 400 GB of data would take a while, it would be pretty useful !!!


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## stevenson-again (Oct 27, 2010)

*Re: Oh dear - Big Problems with HS*

i was having problems where completely wrong notes were playing, but it may just be streaming issues. i am sorting out SSD and esata PCIe card and i will test then and i can then demonstrate the viola tuning problem although it looks like nick is onto that.

this is my first foray into east west products (apart from RA) and the first time i have used PLAY and while i am not wild about PLAY, i am very impressed with the sound of HS.

i am sure there will be lots of programming inconsistencies and other types of issues and provided east west are receptive to them as audiobro have been over theirs, i am sure it will get ironed out over time.

i have to say though, i would have paid a premium for HS if it was on kontakt. it's not a kontakt vs PLAY thing, it's just a usability issue. if i had HS on kontakt, i could mix and match my articulations more easily, i could much more easily create banks for articulations and i would have greater ease of backwards comptibility with previous templates and songs. i could also correct some of the issues i discovered myself. i regularly dip into programming on libraries in order to fix issues with them.

to be sure, i have avoided east west products in the past because of PLAY, but HS is that good i could no longer ignore it.

i will get back with some more demos and examples of the problems as soon as i can - but i have been really busy with meetings and bits and pieces i have not had any more time to put anything together.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 27, 2010)

well - i'll check, but i am really sceptical that the corruption would result in the problems i have seen. i first need to get the library working properly first. i am having a lot of trouble just keeping it afloat - lots of crashing and problems with midi - but i don't know if that is on the PLAY side or not. it was working the other day. i suspect it is my end. once i get that sorted out i will be able test it more thoroughly. certainly the problems i had were weird. i need to rule stuff out my end first. i am putting together something fairly comprehensive for their QA guys so we'll get to the bottom of it.


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## Dan Mott (Oct 27, 2010)

*Re: Oh dear - Big Problems with HS*

Don't worry stevenson. VE Pro might sort out the banking issue thing. We might be able to create our own keysswitches or something like this.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 27, 2010)

> Don't worry stevenson. VE Pro might sort out the banking issue thing. We might be able to create our own keysswitches or something like this.



i already have sorted this in plogue - but i am having a lot of trouble keeping plogue afloat with PLAY inside it. i need tog et the streaming issue sorted before i really investigate it.


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## Dan Mott (Oct 27, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Wed Oct 27 said:


> > Don't worry stevenson. VE Pro might sort out the banking issue thing. We might be able to create our own keysswitches or something like this.
> 
> 
> 
> i already have sorted this in plogue - but i am having a lot of trouble keeping plogue afloat with PLAY inside it. i need tog et the streaming issue sorted before i really investigate it.



Stange. Alot of people are having similar streaming issues.

Well, the only think I could think of is PLAY Pro, which might improve this.


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## Joe S (Oct 27, 2010)

*Re: Oh dear - Big Problems with HS*

Mike, Can you post some examples? Do these issues interfere with your workflow? I am interested in Hollywood Strngs, but after everything you posted, I think maybe I should just get LASS.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 27, 2010)

well, steady on...

LASS has been out a while and it is fantastic - but expect to do some fiddling to make it sound really nice. that said, when you do it DOES sound great and is by far the most usable and most logical to use library out there considering all it's tricks. but it has been around a bit longer than HS and it did have some problems similar to what i have been finding with HS when it first came out. it works brilliantly in kontakt and doesn't require cray super computers to run it.

but by god HS has some magic about it i personally can't ignore and i will walk through coals to get at it. i have to say though if workflow is paramount then LASS will probably be the better choice at the moment....well it also depends on your workflow....


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## JohnG (Oct 27, 2010)

*Re: Oh dear - Big Problems with HS*

+1

When many libraries first emerge, they have tuning and editing problems that get addressed over time. LASS' first incarnation (I bought it five minutes after it was available) had serious tuning issues, particularly in its divisi application, but those were fixed. LASS now has addressed that issue quite comprehensively, in my view.

Some of the HS issues people are reporting are idiosyncratic -- particular to just a single user's setup or a particular kind of interaction with other software. Others are not. I have not written a piece featuring Bartok pizz repeating over and over. If I do, I might find issues, or use the violas. Or change keys and wait until it's fixed.

In the mean time, I can barely contain my enthusiasm for the sound of HS playing a melody. It is fabulous.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 27, 2010)

I'm reading all this with great interest, especially knowing Hollywood Brass is editing and Hollywood Woodwinds recorded. It just sounds like no matter how powerful the system, almost everyone struggles to some degree with HS, while LASS is in such good shape.

I hope that the overworked EWQL spend lots of time in further optimisation within Play alongside all their editing work on the other libs... its the real world reports on this forum that will sell the library or not to me. I know it sounds awesome, but for now I think I can get a sound that's good enough to tide me over using Symphobia and LASS (as exposed, for better or worse, in the member's composition area).


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## mech289 (Oct 27, 2010)

*Re: Oh dear - Big Problems with HS*

I can honestly say I am not struggling at all with HS Diamond in Sonar Producer 8.5. Joseph


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## José Herring (Oct 27, 2010)

I really need to know if HS Gold is having performance problems or if you guys are talking about Diamond?

And, if you a running gold what are the specs of the machine you are running it on? 

I know this contributes nothing to the conversation here but if anybody could answer these questions it would be a big help to me.

Thx,

Jose


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## stevenson-again (Oct 27, 2010)

i am planning to run gold, but i don't have proper streaming drive for it just yet. my issue is that i want to have all the articulations ready to go with a simple program change, or score symbol activating a program change. i am having trouble getting gold to fully load from a saved project, but until i have the system i think will work with it in place i can't be certain it isn't that. i have personally advised people to use plogue and HS and it has worked for them so we'll have to see.

i can also attest to symphobia and LASS being a brilliant combination. i have at times been bowled over at how realistic LASS can be. i also love how well programmed it is. in fact i would like all future libraries to regard LASS as a bench mark in how to program user friendly Libs. we should start a petition for the LASS programming to become an industry standard....

but...the east west boys just nailed THAT sound and i want to play with it, and knowing they are doing a brass library in the same vein was the clincher. i'll have to deal with PLAY and get used to it.


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## José Herring (Oct 27, 2010)

They say that Gold will stream off of standard drives. I guess that's not the case then. I'm in the mist of building a new machine right now and then placing Gold on it. I wanted to run HS Gold and Kontakt libraries on the same machine.


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## dannthr (Oct 27, 2010)

I can see Nick Phoenix's Ulcer-Meter crank up a bit every time a thread like this appears on VI.

What I don't understand is why the OP even bothered to post here OVER the technical support thread at SOL, ever.

It just doesn't make sense unless you actually aren't interested in fixing whatever problem you're having.

Posting technical support issues on VI does very little to quickly amend the problem. 

We should feel blessed that SOL folks visit these forums at all and moreover address technical support problems that arise on these forums.

These forums are not the place to address technical support issues with PLAY products, these forums are a place to discuss sample libraries and the only real reason I can see why anyone would post technical support issues here are that they actually don't have an interest in fixing the problem but instead broadcasting the problem.

Frankly, that's just rude, especially when you did not give the SOL team the chance in the first place to help you--before you brought it here.

I really don't understand this as a process for fixing technical problems with software.


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## José Herring (Oct 27, 2010)

I didn't mean to hijack the topic and open a can of worms. I just wanted to know what hardware people were using to run Gold and if it was successful.

Thanks John, Peter and TJ for your input.

Jose


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## stevenson-again (Oct 27, 2010)

well i take on board the 'technical issue' point, but i might add i have been in contact with EW technical support pretty much as soon as i realized these problems maybe not something i had done wrong.

however i am not signed up to the forum there and couldn't figure out how to sign up there (it didn't work - and actually i will be getting in touch with technical support about that too) and wanted to find out if there was something i missed in the very short window of opportunity i had to look at this library. so posted here in the hope of getting some advice - and duly got it.

when i did manage to get everything going, i could play back an older project created with my current template using HS but was very surprised to find some of these issues straight away. i presumed, wrongly as it turned out, that others had discovered these things or had come across them and had solutions....you know...maybe a setting i had missed.

what i would say here now, is that in retrospect the title of this thread is perhaps not as respectful as it should be, and for that i apologize. but i have been in touch with EW and i plan to give them a whole bunch of material to sift through to help me with the problems i have been having just as soon as i can.

i agree with thomas that generally the things left to be ironed out are minor in the scheme of things such as a lazy spic here and some tuning issues in the violas there - except that some of my issues really were not minor at all. until i have my crucial drive (you really only pay $130? jeez that's cheap - over here they are like £230) and i can eliminate streaming as an issue will i know for sure whether these problems are real or not. one of my problems was i had missing notes in round robins, but the most major problem of all is that repeated notes even in the sustains were actually not playing back the right pitch! i can hardly keep PLAY going long enough to test anything...now i don't know if that is a problem (they are looking like midi crashes) my end but i wanted to find out as soon as possible so i could muck around with the library, and thus posted here in the hope of getting some quick advice - not to try and bag the library.

and i think i have insisted over and over that i want to get this puppy up and running, i have invested in hardware especially to do that and i am sure i will get to the bottom of any of my problems. furthermore looking back over the thread i don't think anyone has actually said anything different. so i really don't think there is any need for defensiveness or to imply that anyone has been at all disrespectful. this is the place where people come to get advice about the libraries they have - all libraries including this one. i personally think this forum is an invaluable resource. HS raises the bar in many ways and demands a lot from existing resources. you can't just bung it on your sample drive like other libraries and expect to be happy. with hollywood brass around the corner i am contemplating a slave machine for the first time just so i can run it and HS as well. what does that say? that says i believe in the product enough to put it ahead of convenience which up until now i have prized ahead of virtually anything else.

so dannthr, i don't really get why i shouldn't discuss the problems i have here, for exactly the same reasons i follow similar issues posted my others, and throw my experience into the pool for someone else to take away. when i have problem why can't i do have the same come back to me?

i should add that i am impressed to see nick and thomas here and i appreciate their input. no one i know who can get HS to work has anything but good things to say about it. i can't wait to be one of them.


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## paoling (Oct 27, 2010)

*Re: Oh dear - Big Problems with HS*

Well. I think that for its sound HS, and in particularly HS Gold is a very very good software; and cheap, compared to it's competitors.
I own an I7 with 18 gb of RAM, two SSDs (one on a PCIe card), and I can't run HS without hearing clicks. Maybe its my fault, but I managed to resolve my problems using the method I described above. So I'm saving the RAM for HS, because I stream that in my laptop with VE PRO. This is my workaround. If I hadn't my laptop I could forget to put HS in a template, but just load the patches I need from different drives (if I don't want to use a RAID). This could be another solution.
If HS is not tuned, you have plenty of fantastic demos to hear; and those demos just made me buy the software. 

One reason I think we have to write here our problems it's just to share our thoughts with other people; I'm the first who write in the appropriate forums when I have a problem, like I'm doing these days with MIR. I know that there will be people who will read here and there and maybe could be discouraged in buying a library for just misinformation; but there are plenty of other people who can be excited by the demos here and by the good things we are saying about that.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 27, 2010)

*Re: Oh dear - Big Problems with HS*

Excellent post, Rohan - just one additional thought, suggest you modify the thread title as a show of good faith?


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## Animus (Oct 27, 2010)

Thomas_J @ Wed Oct 27 said:


> Come on guys, cut us some slack here. HS is a perfectly operational library and I have written more than enough music to support that fact. There are still things left to iron out but they are minor in the grand scheme of things. I see people are still talking about 7200rpm drives. Just buy a $130 Crucial drive and you're good. Why keep harping on about it? Some of you are making these problems look like the library isn't working. We have sold a lot of copies and there have been very few complaints. While some people prefer gathering in flocks in certain online social communities to rant about how some uneven bartok pizz samples are preventing them from writing their new masterpiece, others are simply writing music, working around the few hiccups they may encounter in their way. The tuning issue in the violas is for example remedied in 5 seconds by setting midi pitch data at the beginning of your template/sequence. Most problems are related to people running the monster patches on underpowered computers in strange configurations. We are always listening to our customers and we have implemented a lot of user requested functionality already, with no intention of stopping. Is it really necessary to create such tabloid-like thread titles everytime you hit a little snag? We know PLAY is not 100% perfect, but it's getting better by the day, and fact of the matter is that 100s of people are writing music with HS every day, me included. The amount of work that went into this product is absolutely insane. You don't even want to know how complex some of the HS patches are. It is really quite a feat of engineering if I dare say so myself  anyway, the point of my post is that I wish people would be a little more respectful for the work that we have done here. We are selling a piece of software that cost almost a million dollars to make. You are getting it for practically nothing. It IS working, and the few remaining issues a select few people are having with a couple of patches shouldn't stop you from putting the sample library to good use.
> 
> Best,
> Thomas



I will cut your slacks when you guys get us those keyswitched legato patches. o/~ 

:D


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## Nick Phoenix (Oct 27, 2010)

*Re: Oh dear - Big Problems with HS*

Oh no. New can of worms. We did make the new repetition legato patches. They are great. But. The keyswitched legato is not working. It's very technical, but we are already using a dual keyswitched system in these patches. You will have to get used to the current system for now.


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## givemenoughrope (Oct 27, 2010)

Thomas_J @ Wed Oct 27 said:


> Just buy a $130 Crucial drive and you're good.



Whoa, what? Which one? The only thing that was holding me back from buying HS was the cost of the drives to run it. 

Also, did EW ever figure out the multi license thing for spreading across more than one machine? If so, is it better to stream from one SSD on one slave or four 10k drives across 2 slaves?

thanks


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## chimuelo (Oct 27, 2010)

*Re: Oh dear - Big Problems with HS*

I actually prefer a second opinion when it comes to Medicine and software, so I enjoy this forum and the thread.
I look forward to PLAY Pro.
Early adopters are a treasure to the developers, and the wait and see guys like me.
So Thanks To All..


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## stevenson-again (Oct 28, 2010)

*Re: Oh dear - Big Problems with HS*



> Oh no. New can of worms. We did make the new repetition legato patches. They are great. But. The keyswitched legato is not working. It's very technical, but we are already using a dual keyswitched system in these patches. You will have to get used to the current system for now.



and i am sure we can. once i am up and running i have a cool system for getting the articulation switches via program changes using plogue which i can show everyone and repay some of the good will shown to me here.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 28, 2010)

Ha ha, love the new thread title!

TJ and Nick, please don't get too defensive. I think we all realise this is a colossus of a library and we all adore the sound... speaking as someone who is passing for now, I absolutely definitely want it in the future. The two major factors that cause me to pause are a) not having a system that will cope even with Gold (and there's a long explanation behind that which is too boring to go into, but it will change in a year or so) and b) knowing anything this complex and resource-intensive will take a while to settle down.

For so many of us, Play's continued development is crucial, and I wish y'all the very best with that ongoing task. (and as a PS I feel obliged to noisily point out yet again just what a miserable experience I'm having with Kontakt 4.1 32 bit vst at the moment, so please don't think I'm just picking on Play!)


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## stevenson-again (Oct 28, 2010)

well, i am really sorry, but i have just spent another half day on this.

PLAY refuses to work even when streaming from an internal RAID set up. i can get it to work a bit in logic, but not very well.

this is even though it is virtually the only thing streaming. i regularly stream much much larger templates with heavy scripting and lots of voices with out issue off this same drive but i cannot get PLAY to work. it's very disappointing and extremely time consuming.

it is anyway, not an option for me to run PLAY within logic - it must be in Plogue or VEpro (of course it does not run in VEpro).

i don't understand what the problem is with Plogue. everything works perfectly with kontakt or any other AU i run in it. it seems it is only PLAY that has an issue. but i know it is being run in Plogue about the place so i am wondering how it is being achieved.


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## ChrisAxia (Oct 28, 2010)

Sorry to hear you're having so many problems Rohan. I am successfully running HS in Bidule on the same Mac Pro as Logic, and using the ADAT loop back technique you suggested to me! I'm sure you'll solve it soon. Good luck.

~C


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## stevenson-again (Oct 28, 2010)

that's good to hear chris. if it has been done it can be done....err...amen.


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## IFM (Oct 28, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Thu Oct 28 said:


> well, i am really sorry, but i have just spent another half day on this.
> 
> PLAY refuses to work even when streaming from an internal RAID set up. i can get it to work a bit in logic, but not very well.
> 
> ...



Play does indeed work with VEPro and that is how I have my HS string template set up streaming of off the supplied WD drive. I am also running Logic 9.1.2. Plogue only will work on one stream when in rewire mode so you should not do that. Make sure you have the latest version of VEPro.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 28, 2010)

Dragonwind @ Thu Oct 28 said:


> stevenson-again @ Thu Oct 28 said:
> 
> 
> > well, i am really sorry, but i have just spent another half day on this.
> ...



+1.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 28, 2010)

ah! great tip. no i am not using rewire for plogue.

i have just managed to get it going in logic - so its seems to be a plogue related thing. this could be the big show stopper, because i need to be able to make articulation switches with program changes. while i CAN do that in logic, i would prefer to do that in plogue so that i have backwards compatibility with kontakt based templates.

i will at least check out VEpro and see if i can't get it happening with that. thanks again!


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## Ashermusic (Oct 28, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Thu Oct 28 said:


> ah! great tip. no i am not using rewire for plogue.
> 
> i have just managed to get it going in logic - so its seems to be a plogue related thing. this could be the big show stopper, because i need to be able to make articulation switches with program changes. while i CAN do that in logic, i would prefer to do that in plogue so that i have backwards compatibility with kontakt based templates.
> 
> i will at least check out VEpro and see if i can't get it happening with that. thanks again!


;;

I have a template set up with for Vln 1 & 2, Vla, Cello, and Bass for Legato (not powerful version), KS, and Mod Shorts that I could send you.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 28, 2010)

Thomas_J @ Wed Oct 27 said:


> I see people are still talking about 7200rpm drives. Just buy a $130 Crucial drive and you're good. Why keep harping on about it?
> 
> Best,
> Thomas



Because some of us, perhaps most of us, use Macs primarily and the resulting improvement is AFAIK, nowhere comparable. If you guys want to me to come over one day and we can run some tests, I will be happy to.


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## IFM (Oct 28, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Thu Oct 28 said:


> ah! great tip. no i am not using rewire for plogue.
> 
> i have just managed to get it going in logic - so its seems to be a plogue related thing. this could be the big show stopper, because i need to be able to make articulation switches with program changes. while i CAN do that in logic, i would prefer to do that in plogue so that i have backwards compatibility with kontakt based templates.
> 
> i will at least check out VEpro and see if i can't get it happening with that. thanks again!



Try running logic at 128k and VEPro at 1 Buffer. This will make your latency 256 which is still tolerable and even a 2 Buffer is 384k which is still doable too. The beauty is that this is only for armed or 'live' tracks. Tracks playing back that aren't armed will run at 1024.

Chris


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## Ashermusic (Oct 28, 2010)

Dragonwind @ Thu Oct 28 said:


> stevenson-again @ Thu Oct 28 said:
> 
> 
> > ah! great tip. no i am not using rewire for plogue.
> ...



I doubt you will be able to run HS without pops and clicks with Loigc's buffer set to 128.


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## JohnG (Oct 28, 2010)

Hi Rohan,

Some people have pointed out that recent versions of Kontakt and PLAY do not work very well together if the Kontakt loads first. The issue, I'm told, is that Kontakt now grabs all available memory and reserves it to itself.

Within Logic (if I remember correctly) that means Kontakt should go at the bottom, in DP on the far right of any other VSTs. Not sure how to manage the order within Bidule of loading VSTs.

You might consider trying PLAY only in Bidule to see if that isolates it. I'm using PLAY every day with Bidule on my Windows 7 64 bit PC and it works in both those settings. I also have a Bidule setup (standalone) on my Macintosh and PLAY is fine in there too (piano and strings). 

I am still trying to sort out the MP Assign (multiprocessor assign) but am on the trail of that.


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## IFM (Oct 28, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Thu Oct 28 said:


> I doubt you will be able to run HS without pops and clicks with Loigc's buffer set to 128.



It works because the 'buffer' setting in VE pro multiplies the buffer setting on Logic. I even can use Powerful System patches sparingly, but don't. The bottleneck will end up being the drive so when that ceiling is hit I just freeze the tracks I'm not working on.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 28, 2010)

actually - i speak too soon....

what i can do is use bidule 1 to go to an instance of plogue with no audio in it, do my remapping and send it to the IAC bus.....it's a finegal, but if PLAY works ok in VEpro this would get me what i need...


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## stevenson-again (Oct 28, 2010)

thanks john,

but actually i have completely removed kontakt from the equation just to try and get things working in plogue. it just wasn't having it and i am blowed if i can figure out why. it didn't work with the midi bidule and it didn;t work with the IAC bus.

@dragonwind - thanks again for the tip, but in actual fact the server version is not really my thing. what you should know about my workflow is latency for the big libraries is not an issue. i would gladly have logic at higher latencies except that i happen to know that can actually lead worse performance - but that's another story.

i have a lwish latency patch i use for sketching and then for the most part i am step timing, so latency can be pretty bad for me to care. i just set a midi delay to make sure everything plays back in time and i am relatively happy.

here's what i've got in mind for using VEpro and plogue


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## IFM (Oct 28, 2010)

Could you just use the Enviroment in Logic as opposed to running a 3rd program in the background? Personally I would forget bidule all together and save the resources for HS.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 28, 2010)

Dragonwind @ Thu Oct 28 said:


> Could you just use the Enviroment in Logic as opposed to running a 3rd program in the background? Personally I would forget bidule all together and save the resources for HS.



Then you have to wait for the very long time it takes to load the HS instruments when changing projects.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 28, 2010)

no i can't for 2 reasons:

i firstly need to run plogue anyway in order to run the rest of my template, and secondly what i dearly want is not to have insert the midi processing in logic. i want a template that sits in the background that is interchangeable with my other templates,so i can load up a logic song that was created playing a different template and for it to play the new template with as little faff as possible.


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## tripit (Oct 28, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Thu Oct 28 said:


> Thomas_J @ Wed Oct 27 said:
> 
> 
> > I see people are still talking about 7200rpm drives. Just buy a $130 Crucial drive and you're good. Why keep harping on about it?
> ...



I think this is key here - there seems to be more serious Play issues with Mac users. PC users seem to be getting much better results. Maybe EW should be taking a harder look at getting better Mac/Play performance as I do agree with Jay that is probably the primary platform for many. I currently have several posts in EW tech support trying to resolve Play's holding on of memory.


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## IFM (Oct 28, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Thu Oct 28 said:


> Dragonwind @ Thu Oct 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Could you just use the Enviroment in Logic as opposed to running a 3rd program in the background? Personally I would forget bidule all together and save the resources for HS.
> ...



We must be talking about two different things as I don't mean to have Logic hosting Play but to still wire everything to VEPro. The way I am understanding it is he wants to create a custom midi routing with bidule to control VEpro and why not do that in the environment. 

o-[][]-o 
Chris


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## IFM (Oct 28, 2010)

@stevenson-again: Not sure why you would be adverse to VEPro server as I think this is the better way to do it. Sure you only get one MIDI port but just have one instance per section. I can see why people like to run it separately though.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 28, 2010)

an important thing for me here is that i need to be able get into past material. i am working on a big series and constantly need to get to past material to reshape it. if i want to remix with HS then i need to for it to be playable easily with my past logic songs created with earlier templates - it needs to be compatible. in any case i have plogue running, and that is where i have had my previous string layups. i might as well use it to do the midi processing. the key is that i should at east be able to run HS in some form.

even with VEpro i am finding that the legato patches at least are not loading properly on relaunching either VEpro of plogue. i have to reload them for them to playback properly.

another thing i can't get over is how demanding PLAY is. i mean i am only running lite patches and only running HS on a sample RAID drive which has in the past played back massive massive templates running 100's of voices with plenty of big scripts going on. i've gpt ivory, SAM brass, symphobia, LASS, spitfire, requiem the trumpet westgate horn, impacts, kore, evolve most of the tonehammer catalogue, and god knows what else all streaming at the same time from it, why can't i get a string section albeit a very good and detailed one in HS to play back smoothly? it's very frustrating...not to mention bemusing....

my other concern is just the sheer size of the patches (which is presumably what the problem above is about). once i get the SSD i want it to take the strain of streaming and PLAY doesn't seem to offer much in the way of options to optimize performance in certain direction - such more streaming from disk and less RAM. i know it has some but even on those settings, and loading the lite patches, the PLAY server i showing over 6GB loaded up. i think this is why slaves and PLAY are good idea. it does seem to me from everything i have heard that PLAY and PCs seem to be much better friends than with macs.
at least for the time being i am trying to load just the legato patches and load more into RAM and i am still getting the streaming problems. it's better in logic for sure but i don't get why it doesn't work in Plogue. at least if i can get it going in VEpro that would be something - with plogue doing the midi processing for VEpro and hosting my kontakt instruments i should be good to go.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 28, 2010)

> @stevenson-again: Not sure why you would be adverse to VEPro server as I think this is the better way to do it. Sure you only get one MIDI port but just have one instance per section. I can see why people like to run it separately though.



in every encounter with the server version there have been significant problems...crashes etc....so i have shied away personally.

but i had already set things up via plogue and i think since i have that framework solid, again for reasons of backwards compatibility i am personally better off with that route.

also, it vastly vastly easier to automate using a midi only route and not using a SI channel strip in logic.

this way i can i have a master object controlling volume and modwheel and other controller information, and then pass that to individual instruments if i need to. there are work arounds i know, but at the end of the day it doesn't make much difference here. it makes it much more solid and faster and easier on so many levels to have a completely separate system for my template uncluttered with special voodoo protocols between VEpro and logic.


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## Animus (Oct 28, 2010)

JFB @ Thu Oct 28 said:


> @stevenson-
> 
> That complex bidule layout in which you probably have hours invested is unnecessary to effect program changes with Play. You can use a this Environment example to easily do program changes with a Play instrument running outside of Logic.
> 
> ...



man, that is awfully complicated and makes my head hurt. In Nuendo I just setup VST Expressions and be done with it. 

But unfortunately, with legato instruments these hacks don't work to well in the transition from program to program.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 29, 2010)

JFB,

that's awfully kind of you to post such a detailed description of the logic environment routing, but actually i do know how to do it in logic. i am trying to avoid doing it in logic so that i don't have to worry about setting up the routing in every one of my past songs which i will need to get into.

in actual fact, it is slightly easier to setup in plogue because they have a midi splitter which will split via program change. it's slightly simpler to set up, but you are limited to 16 channels. if you go to midi and look for a traingle 'splitters' you can put in a splitter and set it to split via program change which works in the same way as logic cable selector. you can do pretty much all the same things in plogue as you can with logic, although i do miss the map for remapping. my plogue environment didn;t take long at all to set up, and i could in fact have used output midi bidules rather than IAC busses. i'll leave it like this for the time being though.

the big idea i am trying to chase down is to use the same logic song to play completely different templates. at the moment it looks like it is working. i have found that you can load different articulations into the one play instance and access them via midi channel.


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## Dan Mott (Oct 29, 2010)

Stevenson.

I know you've probably done this already, but when you are running your instruments, have you had a look at what the VE Pro and Bidule CPU metre is doing?

Prehaps PLAY isn't the big deal here. Is there a way on your MAC that you can look at your OS CPU? If you can, try comparing the CPU usage from your OS to the VE Pro and Bidule instances. It might be the VE Pro or Bidule is playing up in that area which is causes bad streaming and cut notes.

Just a suggestion because I'm having this issue.

Thought I'd put it on the table.


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## Danny_Owen (Oct 29, 2010)

just for anyone who's interested I've left my setup for doing the same thing (implementing channel changes via program changes) in Plogue here: http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18476

you have to make sure that the note information travels to individual channels via the program switch, but that the CC information travels to ALL the channels, otherwise you might run into a few problems as I've explained on the page.


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## Dan Mott (Oct 29, 2010)

Stevenson. I opened up the celli patch just then and it's working fine, but I'm using diamond.

and also... dude... what do you mean by this comment - *"maddeningly, HS is inconsistent with dynamic crossfades. it can't decide whether it is cc1 or cc11. nick? is there are good reason for this?"* 

CC1 = Vibrato
CC2 = Expression

However, I'm not entirely sure that this is the case on all patches. On some patches the expression and vibrato are link to one CC code, such as you only use CC11 to control dynamics and as you raise the dynamics, not only the sound gets louder, but the vibrato get's louder too. I'm unclear what patches do this exactly, but I'm sure it's in the manual.

I'm guessing it might be in the lite patches.


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## paoling (Oct 29, 2010)

Hi I confirm that Celli legato slur LT 6 NI patch is not working even for me.
It doesn't do the legato thing, muting the previous note played.

You can load the LT 12 as a workaround (as I did).

Paolo


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## Animus (Oct 29, 2010)

Dan-Jay @ Fri Oct 29 said:


> Stevenson. I opened up the celli patch just then and it's working fine, but I'm using diamond.
> 
> and also... dude... what do you mean by this comment - *"maddeningly, HS is inconsistent with dynamic crossfades. it can't decide whether it is cc1 or cc11. nick? is there are good reason for this?"*
> 
> ...



In the Lite 6 and below patches CC1 (Mod) controls velocity/vibrato. I hate it that they are combined. Makes the Lite patches worthless to me.

I do have to say the programming choices of HS are all kind of wonky to me. HS is great for the the "sound" Murphy got imo. I would have preferred more "traditional" straightforward programming that didn't make people's workflows change and peoples' computers blow up, with at least the ability to change things your self with the programming.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 29, 2010)

Animus @ Fri Oct 29 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Fri Oct 29 said:
> 
> 
> > Stevenson. I opened up the celli patch just then and it's working fine, but I'm using diamond.
> ...



Well, you may hate it but with real string players when they get louder they generally do produce more vibrato.


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## Animus (Oct 29, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Fri Oct 29 said:


> Animus @ Fri Oct 29 said:
> 
> 
> > Dan-Jay @ Fri Oct 29 said:
> ...


 Bowing harder causes more finger vibrato? Interesting phenomena. I know when I play guitar I can pick hard as hell and my fretboard fingers doesn't start shaking involuntarily.

Actually, cross-fading into vibrato never sounds good or realistic to me, not excluding HS.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 29, 2010)

god i just seem to run across all the little holes and problems don't i? i just kept loading up that patch thinking that ought to be one the system as it stands could handle and it turns out to be broken, leaving me thumping my head against a brick wall thinking there was something wrong with my system or with PLAY or whatever. i finally loaded up a different one and it was fine. that may even have been one of the reasons i thought plogue wasn't working.

same thing with the spiccs and the pizzs. i think they are really close with this library, but i wouldn't be able to use the spiccs or pizz's in action - they aren't quite tight enough. not sure the staccatissimos are quite tight enough either - just yet. they sound great though. what i hope they do is add air to the beginning so the samples to get them all in time, rather than truncate them - but i doubt that would be all that popular with a lot of users who would not like the latency that would introduce. it would preserve the natural attacks though and i would just set delays to get them in time with the other material.

as to the cc's i was perplexed to find that you control dynamics with the modwheel on some patches but cc11 on others. for example, the trills and trems respond to cc11 for dynamic cross fades but the arco's respond to cc1 - on some of them. i really think that's strange but not life threatening. it's the same with the trumpet - they have cc1 for vibrato and cc11 for dynamics - but at least there it's a simple matter to reassign on the cc's on the UI in kontakt. i have to put in cc remappers in plogue to switch them over for PLAY. it's no big deal really.

here is a fairly typical sequence for strings - i have an object controlling cc1 (dynamics) for all the instruments, except for when i want specific control for in an individual part or parts, where i program it in to the region itself. it's really fast to work this way. you can see al the program changes controlling the articulation switches. i now ahve this set up with VEpro and plogue so this actually all works with PLAY. this is why i need the cc's to be consistent.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 29, 2010)

> Actually, cross-fading into vibrato never sounds good or realistic to me, not excluding HS.



the patches i have tried the effect is nominal - nothing more than sense of note warming. it's sounding really nice and i can prove it....


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## Ashermusic (Oct 29, 2010)

Animus @ Fri Oct 29 said:


> Ashermusic @ Fri Oct 29 said:
> 
> 
> > Animus @ Fri Oct 29 said:
> ...



Well, it may not "cause" it but it is what generally happens in my experience, probably because when they play louder, they get a little more emotional and with string players that translates to vibrato frequently. And obviously, bowing and playing with a pick are not analogous tasks.

Maybe Hannes will speak to this.


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## Animus (Oct 29, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Fri Oct 29 said:


> Animus @ Fri Oct 29 said:
> 
> 
> > Ashermusic @ Fri Oct 29 said:
> ...



I know what you are saying but that should still be a choice.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 29, 2010)

I don't necessarily disagree but for me it is not a big deal.


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## Nick Phoenix (Oct 29, 2010)

The lightest patches need to be compromised in the control area so they will run better. we can't include all the options. You need to load the 9 way for vibrato control. I don't understand the complaint here. HS already has thousands of patches so we can't give you every possible combination. Other new string libraries have that scheme as the only option. The wonky one you describe. HS is the most complicated, biggest single sampling project ever created. It's not wonky. We will continue to improve things and should have it all smooth by the time the brass is finished. By the way, the woodwinds are also now finished recording. We may have a complete orchestra available in about a year or so.


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## Udo (Oct 29, 2010)

OT


Nick Phoenix @ Sat Oct 30 said:


> .........By the way, the woodwinds are also now finished recording. We may have a complete orchestra available in about a year or so.


Nick, in stead of EW using most of its resources on NEW developments (and HS issues), don't you think it's about time WordBuilder-Play integration is completed first? It's been dragging on for ages!! I know it's in beta, but it has been there for quite some time.

As far as I'm concerned, even HS issues can wait until WordBuilder is working properly :wink:

You don't have take what I said too literally, but the simple fact is, Wordbuilder issues have been dragging on far too long.


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## Animus (Oct 29, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Fri Oct 29 said:


> The lightest patches need to be compromised in the control area so they will run better. we can't include all the options. You need to load the 9 way for vibrato control. I don't understand the complaint here. HS already has thousands of patches so we can't give you every possible combination. Other new string libraries have that scheme as the only option. The wonky one you describe. HS is the most complicated, biggest single sampling project ever created. It's not wonky. We will continue to improve things and should have it all smooth by the time the brass is finished. By the way, the woodwinds are also now finished recording. We may have a complete orchestra available in about a year or so.



What I am talking about is the lack of options. Apparently the reason HS is so resource hungry is that it's playing back many layers (even ones not active)? So what about separate patches for vibrato and non-vibrato, for at least the light versions. Keeping it more modular like that would make it more compatible and able to adapt to more computers. Stuff like VST Expressions has made it a lot easier to work with varying articulations nowadays, whereas HS makes me have to work with controllers and note velocity on top of articulation switching, if that makes sense. Hopefully Play Pro will offer some user customization that will solve a lot of this. Anyway, I seem to be getting along more nicely with the Big Legato patches now, just a bit of a workflow killer that my other libraries are set up more traditionally and I have to remember that HS works differently.

Yeah LASS has a lot of the same programming ideas going on but I don't like it either.


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## Dan Mott (Oct 29, 2010)

New computers everyone. That's the key. I'm working towards upgraded mine so I can run what I want without any fuss.

The thing is. If one is about to purchase HS, they need to first think to them selves if they can run the library, even if it's just the lite patches. I have a feeling that some may have underestimated the power of this library and how much stress it can cause for you computer. Again, even the lite patches still take up quite a bit and one will still need atleast an up to date modern computer to tun it to their liking.

The thing is, some people can take the option of controlling Vibrato and expression seperately and then others can't because they can only run the patches they don't like as much because of the system resources.

I suggest to upgrade your gear if you're going to run the big patches, from the lite 12 to the powerful system ones. This is the only way you won't have issues. I'm going to upgrade, and so should others here too if they are running into issues like Animus is.

Then again, some people can't afford parts and all this, such as my self, but again it's the only option and that's what we should all be thinking about to work towards running this library instead of trying to optimise it.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 30, 2010)

if it is alright with everyone i would prefer to keep this on topic with issues relating with getting going with HS. if you want to discuss what patches should or should not be included then i think that would be a worthy topic for another thread.

to summarize my problems getting started:

- i somehow managed to stumble across the very patches that had the most problems. this lead to confusion over whether 1) my system was flaky 2) PLAY was flaky 3) the programming was flaky
- the problems when streaming became an issue manifested themselves in a way that suggested there was something seriously wrong with the programming - wrong notes, missing RR that sort of thing. there should probably be error messages explaining the problem.

- i cannot get over how extraordinarily demanding PLAY is. streaming from the same drive, it can only playback a fraction of the number of voices i was able to achieve with my previous templates. with a library as deep and detailed as HS, wouldn't it make more sense to playback lossless compressed audio?

- we could do with more control over RAM vs streaming in PLAY. even after reading the same bit in the manaual several times, i don't quite get this interaction and i certainly don't think i have much in the way of choice. just a preload buffer slider alla kontakt would just about do it. then max voices - well i don't know if that is a buffer setting or literally the number of voices...

- there are programming inconstancies i do not understand in how HS is set up. with the greatest of respect to the amazing achievement HS represents - i do really think this an important point. those of us who would use HS are likely to be experienced users with established workflows. while i can understand and appreciate the value of having a way to interact with the library suggested to us in default settings, it is really problematic to not be able to get and set our own cc's, or tweak velocity ranges. for example, i would like to be able to control the velocity range between the onset of port and legato. i certainly find it odd that certain patches have cc1 affecting dynamics and others its cc11. and on those patches that do have cc1 i don't quite understand what cc11 is supposed to be doing. yes i have read the manual. we should really be allowed to get in and set things up to suit our preferred way of working. it's part of how to unlock the power of such a deeply sampled and detailed library.

- it is a major bummer that quick and dirty divisi - such as simple 2 note chord is not possible in a legato patch. LASS makes this very easy - if two notes start within a certain amount of time of one another, then legato is turned off and you can play back those two notes (or 3) as a chord. i have thinking hard about this one and this might actually be deal breaker. if i didn't have to use midi channels to affect articulation switches i might have been able to use that. EDIT - it turns out this should theoretically be possible by using cc22. while it's great that it exists having to use a cc is well...a bit of nuisance, but maybe worthwhile if you get polyphonic voices there as well. unfortunately it isn't working here. i don't know if that is because i have gold or not... i will try to find out.

- i know you guys are on to the tuning issue with the violas. actually one of the reasons HS can sound as lush as it does is probably because the violas, who usually play the mediant against root and fifth in the basses and cellos respectively, are probably properly in tune with the chord. unfortunately, if you have the wrong combination of notes (which naturally i discovered straight away) then it can sound a bit sour. i noticed that the basses are a bit sharp and the cellos are also a touch flat as well. i know you can fix this with the fine tuning, but i think it would be best to fix it at the programming level, so that others parts aren't knocked out. sorry - i know that sounds like work. i have sent demos of this to tech support.

- unfortunately, i don't think the spiccs, staccatissimos and the pizzs are quite tight enough. i have some demos that demonstrate that, and i have sent these to tech support. i know you guys will get these sorted out really quickly.

- i heard through the grapevine that plogue is not officially supported for use with HS PLAY. certainly i struggled but that might have something to do with a dodgy patch i naturally chose straight away. don't you think most people would want to have HS loaded separately from their DAW though? initially people would probably have it running on the one computer (if they didn't already have slaves) and running HS in plogue or VEpro would make transfering to a slave a bit later much easier. some advice about how to set this up would be really good. instead, the manual covers how to load HS into your DAWs. what if you start on a mac but decide to go with a PC slave?

- i don't get what the stereo thingy does even after reading the manual several times. i turned it off and seems fine. it would be nice to know what it's supposed to do. 

i don't know enough to say that there is anything wrong with the vibrato. it all seems fine to me. there is a wonderful, deep and gorgeous, bloom at around the forte area across the library which is really magical. certainly i can;t hear or am not bothered by any vibrato there.

i do think that my computer ought to be powerful enough to pull HS - 2.8 Ghz 8-core, 18 Gb RAM, 128 GB crucial SSD to stream HS from. but i accept that once the brass and wind library come out it may be necessary to go to slaves.


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## Dan Mott (Oct 30, 2010)

One thing you pointed out about the celli being flat, I agree with. Only a little, but noticable when played with other section. This happends on the louder dynamics in the sus patches.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 30, 2010)

the latest maddening thing:

i have transferred the library onto the SSD but it still loads really slowly - no different to being on the RAID really. at what is really perplexing me is that the file path is indicating that it is still loading from old drive! but that's impossible - it has been deleted from there and the libary path in the PLAY browser clearly indicates that it should be from the SSD.

and performance is worse than with the RAID drive. god this is getting up my nose!


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## Ashermusic (Oct 30, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Sat Oct 30 said:


> the latest maddening thing:
> 
> i have transferred the library onto the SSD but it still loads really slowly - no different to being on the RAID really. at what is really perplexing me is that the file path is indicating that it is still loading from old drive! but that's impossible - it has been deleted from there and the libary path in the PLAY browser clearly indicates that it should be from the SSD.
> 
> and performance is worse than with the RAID drive. god this is getting up my nose!



SSD performance on the Mac is simply not seemingly anywhere near to what it is on a PC with Play.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 30, 2010)

yeah - i am definitely definitely loading from te SSD - i am reloading manually to double check and it is no faster than the RAID drive - might even be a whisker slower. but Xbench returns at least double the results. god i am so frustrated with this whole palaver right now. i really regret getting HS - not because it is not a great library but because everything worked so smoothly before. i was happy and productive. now i feel i like i have my nuts caught in a blender.


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## José Herring (Oct 30, 2010)

Regret buying it? That's a pretty damning statement.


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## Animus (Oct 30, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Sat Oct 30 said:


> yeah - i am definitely definitely loading from te SSD - i am reloading manually to double check and it is no faster than the RAID drive - might even be a whisker slower. but Xbench returns at least double the results. god i am so frustrated with this whole palaver right now. i really regret getting HS - not because it is not a great library but because everything worked so smoothly before. i was happy and productive. now i feel i like i have my nuts caught in a blender.



Maybe Nick and Thomas will give you their private personal Kontakt versions of HS they use to actually get stuff done?  

On a serious note, Thomas suggested turning off the Script button which would disable the real time note attack shifting.


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## José Herring (Oct 30, 2010)

I was thinking about a Kontakt version of HS the other day. Like an HS Bronze, with the basic sustains, pizz and stacc notes as well as some of the more light legato patches. They could even split up the legato into different patches like, slow leg, med legato, and fast legato creating a keyswitch between the various speeds.

I don't say this to disparage Play and the work that they've done with HS, but I think it would be a huge money maker for EW and for sure sale for die hard Kontakt exclusive users like myself.

I know this will be an explosive topic for EW, so I'm preparing for the wrath. But, I think it's an idea worthy of consideration.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 30, 2010)

josejherring @ Sat Oct 30 said:


> I was thinking about a Kontakt version of HS the other day. Like an HS Bronze, with the basic sustains, pizz and stacc notes as well as some of the more light legato patches. They could even split up the legato into different patches like, slow leg, med legato, and fast legato creating a keyswitch between the various speeds.
> 
> I don't say this to disparage Play and the work that they've done with HS, but I think it would be a huge money maker for EW and for sure sale for die hard Kontakt exclusive users like myself.
> 
> I know this will be an explosive topic for EW, so I'm preparing for the wrath. But, I think it's an idea worthy of consideration.



Not going to happen.


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## JFB (Oct 30, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Sat Oct 30 said:


> yeah - i am definitely definitely loading from te SSD - i am reloading manually to double check and it is no faster than the RAID drive - might even be a whisker slower. but Xbench returns at least double the results. god i am so frustrated with this whole palaver right now. i really regret getting HS - not because it is not a great library but because everything worked so smoothly before. i was happy and productive. now i feel i like i have my nuts caught in a blender.



I have a 2008 3.2ghz Macpro 8-core with 32GB of ram, OS 10.6.4 on which I run HS.

The problem is that Play is extremely slow to organize its samples/buffers into ram. It can't do it anywhere near the speed that even a standard 7200 rpm drive can deliver and the drive can't feed it any faster than Play can take it. My template uses 13.8 gig of ram, takes about 12 minutes to load, which works out to about 19MB per second. Pretty bad performance. That's why you see such a discrepancy between Xbench measurement and Play performance. I use OWC Mercury Extreme SSD's for all my libraries and everything else, except Play, loads like greased lightning. It's a misnomer that SSD performance is appreciably slower on mac than pc as I have both and this is not at all my experience. I think this impression was caused by seeing no real difference in loading Hollywood Strings from an SSD or mechanical drive, but that's a play issue, not a hard drive issue.

But once Hollywoods Strings are loaded, the SSD with Legato patches makes a profound difference because of the near-ram speed seek time of the SSD. The legato patches create these high-demand spikes on your system and a mechanical drive just can't keep up. I'm able to play simultaneous legato on all sections (2 mic positions) with a 512 buffer without glitch. Without SSD, I'd have to go to 1024, which is unacceptable and unplayable in realtime. I'm not using the "Powerful system" legatos, so each legato note uses only 9 voices, including release trails. It still required an SSD to pull off.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 30, 2010)

JFB @ Sat Oct 30 said:


> But once Hollywoods Strings are loaded, the SSD with Legato patches makes a profound difference because of the near-ram speed seek time of the SSD. The legato patches create these high-demand spikes on your system and a mechanical drive just can't keep up. I'm able to play simultaneous legato on all sections (2 mic positions) with a 512 buffer without glitch. Without SSD, I'd have to go to 1024, which is unacceptable and unplayable in realtime. I'm not using the "Powerful system" legatos, so each legato note uses only 9 voices, including release trails. It still required an SSD to pull off.



I can only tell you that I did not see that here when I had one. There was no noticeable difference in what I could run from the SSD and the Western Caviar Black.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 30, 2010)

hi jfb,

that's really interesting. thanks for posting that. i have to say though, my experience is the same as jay's - i see absolutely no difference in performance at all. so much so i thought maybe HS had not actually been deleted from the sample RAID. it was definitely smoother playing back from sample RAID and i actually managed a few remixes. buffer was 2048. in fact i was streaming the rest of my template from there too. i got glitches but it held up.

i did read about jay's experience on the long thread, but somehow didn't really believe it. maybe i have it the wrong way round - i should put my kontakt libraries on the SSD and HS on the sample RAID, since it clearly prefers to be there. please forgive some of my posts but i have absolutely been tearing my hair out with this library. on the face of it my system should be well and truly up to pulling this library and in fact it did, but the advice to buy a $130 SSD doesn't seem to have worked out for me either. i just don't understand it. i can't believe it actually....


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 30, 2010)

Seriously folks... what's the wisdom here? Why do some people run this ok and yet some people it seems have nothing but problems? Rohan's specs look very good, and he's only running Gold. Is it a mac thing? What I'm asking is... are we anywhere down the road as to what specific systems work well and what don't?

One more thing... I was wondering why you need 9 (or 13) layers all sample streaming at the same time. I presume the answer is the ability to cross fade mid-sample between any layer. I was wondering if it was logically possible to only have adjoining layers streaming - if it's a change in dynamics mid-note, you'd need a finite time to move up or down the layers, so might have time to start streaming more samples (and switch others off) as you go through them, even on a fast transition. Does that make any sense? And if it does, is it achievable without (shudder) more glitching? It just seems like such a strain on systems that hardly anything can cope... otherwise why does an 18gb RAM system with an 8 core processor and an SSD drive not cope very well?


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## paoling (Oct 30, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Sat Oct 30 said:


> One more thing... I was wondering why you need 9 (or 13) layers all sample streaming at the same time. I presume the answer is the ability to cross fade mid-sample between any layer. I was wondering if it was logically possible to only have adjoining layers streaming - if it's a change in dynamics mid-note, you'd need a finite time to move up or down the layers, so might have time to start streaming more samples (and switch others off) as you go through them, even on a fast transition. Does that make any sense? And if it does, is it achievable without (shudder) more glitching?



Well, this should solve all issues, but as far as I know it has never been made by any sampler. I sincerely don't know if it's possibile, because I think that the disk strain to dynamically reach a particular point in a sample in very very short time is bigger than playing everything all together. This could maybe be done with SSDs. If this technology will be created one day, we could say bye to lots of our hardware problems. But I'm not expecting that from PLAY. PLAY it's a sample-player. A good proprietary sample player. Until we don't see something from a well developed and famous sample player like Kontakt, we can't expect that PLAY could do something more. What we can do is asking for the same performance of Kontakt or asking the developers to create a kind of lossless compression that could save 40% of the streaming issues from disk. We could ask these things because we know what is possible.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 30, 2010)

> Stevenson, I sincerely hope you are sending all this to tech support, because it's nit doing you that much good posting it here. It's the tech support guys that need to be hearing this in detail. We are in the middle os many PLAY optimizations right now.




i certainly am. i sent a detailed folder with itemized descriptions and mp3s. but part of the process here is that people feed in little bits of information and i sort of bounce off them. i have been trawling the sounds online forum and the internet generally. it's helpful even just to hear comments such as jay made earlier and jfb as well.

but BY GOLLY I THINK I HAVE CRACKED IT!

i think the problem is the plug-in version of PLAY on mac. i read somewhere that the standalone version was working well and thought - i could actually make copies of the play and load the sections with the articualtions up in there. because of the way i have set things up in plogue to handle the midi processing it should all just work.

not only that, but when you save the instance it saves all the other patches you saved, incuding their midi channels.

you can then just get that to open by drag dropping on to your PLAY copy. unfortunately you have to set the outputs and the midi port for each patch individually, but one you have done all that it works. by god it works - and at 512 buffer setting as well. i changed it to 1024 just to be 100% safe (for each PLAY copy of course).

not only that but the shorts are much much tighter - the spiccs, staccs and pizzs.

i think there is something dodgy midi wise in the AU plug-in version - perhaps. or that's the way it seems at the moment.

everything is playing back - not a glitch.....everything is playing back nice and tight too....oooohhh

i feeling faintyl hysterical.....


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## stevenson-again (Oct 30, 2010)

a picture....

i am litening as i write this. oh its gorgeous.....


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## JFB (Oct 30, 2010)

That's exactly what I've been doing, only with multiple Plogue standalones because I use some of Plogue's midi parameter linking functions for gain and reverb sends. I'm using 512 buffer - perfectly safe. I don't think there's anything wrong with the Play AU; my midi timing on the shorts is tight. I think it has to do with how processing threads are allocated, in this case more by the system than the host. I think multiple standalones is more resource efficient than running multiple VI's in a single multiprocessing host.


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## JFB (Oct 30, 2010)

Thomas_J said:


> By the way, MACs seem to have a problem with SSD drives in general. You should run a harddrive benchmark tool on your crucial to make sure it's performing to specification.



Not true here, but I'm using OWC SSD's, not Crucial. I've run the benchmark tools on both mac and pc platforms with these drives (HD tune on Pc, drive genius on mac) and they perform the same. OWC is a very Mac-centric company, so that may have something to do with it, I don't know. Their drives work equally well on Windows or Mac.


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## tripit (Oct 30, 2010)

JFB @ Sat Oct 30 said:


> Thomas_J said:
> 
> 
> > By the way, MACs seem to have a problem with SSD drives in general. You should run a harddrive benchmark tool on your crucial to make sure it's performing to specification.
> ...



Same here, the OWC SSD performs fine on my mac. Now, EW just needs to solve the memory hold problem in Play on mac.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 30, 2010)

JFB @ Sat Oct 30 said:


> That's exactly what I've been doing, only with multiple Plogue standalones because I use some of Plogue's midi parameter linking functions for gain and reverb sends. I'm using 512 buffer - perfectly safe. I don't think there's anything wrong with the Play AU; my midi timing on the shorts is tight. I think it has to do with how processing threads are allocated, in this case more by the system than the host. I think multiple standalones is more resource efficient than running multiple VI's in a single multiprocessing host.



But why not multiple instances of VE Pro, say, each hosting one instance of Play...wouldn't that force an 8 core to cycle? Isn't that the generally accepted wisdom?

Surely, one HS Gold patch can't use up more than a single core of a Mac Pro (or can it?)


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## JFB (Oct 30, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Sat Oct 30 said:


> JFB @ Sat Oct 30 said:
> 
> 
> > That's exactly what I've been doing, only with multiple Plogue standalones because I use some of Plogue's midi parameter linking functions for gain and reverb sends. I'm using 512 buffer - perfectly safe. I don't think there's anything wrong with the Play AU; my midi timing on the shorts is tight. I think it has to do with how processing threads are allocated, in this case more by the system than the host. I think multiple standalones is more resource efficient than running multiple VI's in a single multiprocessing host.
> ...



You could certainly do this with VE Pro, or any other host, as this is a function of OS X's very robust multi-client audio support. I just prefer Plogue, as I said, because of the midi parameter linking to audio routing functions that can't be done in VE Pro. (should have mentioned that before.) I can make Plogue into any configuration I want. Can't do that with VE Pro. As far a CPU usage, this method doesn't "use up" individual cores, at all. My total CPU (over 8 cores) running an HS arrangement with all five sections playing legato doesn't exceed about 20% with a 512 buffer. Add about 10% usage for the huge template just being open, and I have about 70% idle for anything else.


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## Animus (Oct 31, 2010)

So describe the process of using standalone? How do you route midi/audio to and from your DAW host? Plogue?


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 31, 2010)

Well this is all tremendous news (and another great victory for internet forum problem solving... my own issues years ago with Play and voice allocation were similarly diagnosed using the forums).

In summary - avoid the AU plugin. VST (both 32 and 64 bit) and standalone versions all good as far as VI Control's combined knowledge is concerned?


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## NYC Composer (Oct 31, 2010)

Animus @ Sun Oct 31 said:


> So describe the process of using standalone? How do you route midi/audio to and from your DAW host? Plogue?



I'm a little confused myself. generally, I use the VE Pro VST plug in within Cubase, and in VE Pro itself, I am forced to use the AU, as VE Pro doesn't host VST plugs.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 31, 2010)

> When I saw that there was new activity in this thread I thought "Oh no, not Stevenson again" But then it turned out to be good news for once. I don't know how some people manage to get themselves into so much muck and mire, but I sympathize, having been down the path many times myself over the last 15 years or so. I'm glad you're getting sorted out. Something sounded fishy to me about your problem with the timing of the short notes as they are perfectly tight here. By the way, MACs seem to have a problem with SSD drives in general. You should run a harddrive benchmark tool on your crucial to make sure it's performing to specification.



i have run xbench and in fact i sent it to your technical support while i was trying to sort this problem out. the crucial was behaving as expected.

what is unexpected is the slowness of loading into play. copying across libraries, i could watch my sample RAID output 120 Mb/s according to the istat indicators. the crucial drive was writing at that speed. according to xbench the SSD out performs the sample RAID in every way. but loading HS into PLAY is suspiciously slow.

playing back songs that were glitching terribly, i was watching the meters - hardly anything was streaming from the drive at all! and when it did it was very brief.

i should add, i was playing back the vienna flute from VEpro and it was absolutely fine.

so now i have 2 questions i will want answered at some point:

- how do i get more of the file to stream from the SSD rather than reside in RAM?
- why is playing back 5 instances of PLAY as an AU plug-in so problematic? if it is a processing issue, why would it work in standalone in effectively the same configuration, just without a host?

the other possibility is that it was not midi but a PLAY memory server problem.

if i open up 5 copies of the standalone, i am actually creating 4Gb of real memory space for each instance, rather than using the memory server. the same would apply to anyone running the plug-in in copies of plogue (i know a couple of people who have been duplicating plogue to house PLAY). effectively, the memory server is not needed because you are creating sufficient address space by physically copying the program.

i have no doubt that EW are looking into this.

one last issue (i haven't checked this morning - i write this as i load up) but i have been finding that the cc22 thing of turning polyphonic legato has not been working - except last night when in standalone mode the cellos suddenly decided to work. the other instruments not - just the cellos for some reason.

one last thing, with due respect thomas, i have been at this game for a fairly long time too and jumped down the rabbit hole many times. i have also done a bit of beta-testing so i know all about trouble-shooting bugs. this has been amongst the more painful experiences - it's not the worst i have seen - but it's the worst i have personally experienced in a commercially released product.

i have naturally been inundating your poor tech support with emails...unless they have already blocked me as spam...and i have spent a long time trying to figure out how to join the forum (i managed that) and your technical support forum (failed dismally). this place here is where i have the quickest responses, i still have had no reply to my question about cc22 on the sounds online forum. it took 3 days for EW tech support to get in touch and i have not heard anything since i sent a fairly detailed report - now somewhat redundant in the light of this new information. i don't understand the objection to posting the process i went through here. i got really good tips and confirmation of some of my issues that all put together helped light the way to a finding a solution....and others will have followed that, will now know what things have been tried, and will be able to make informed suggestions next time some one else follows me down the rabbit hole.

this is how i personally learn about how to get to grips with complex software and hardware. i personally follow threads like this avidly and usually make suggestions of my own, i don't see why when i am in trouble i can't expect the same goodwill. it's like stepping into a room with fellow professionals and saying 'help! does anyone know what this is all about?'

my final point is this: clearly you have an amazing product. PLAY's reputation has never been great and was the only reason i have not invested in EW products before....well i do have Ra but that was for kompakt. to get into this library meant seriously upsetting an efficient and pretty good sounding set up that worked extremely well....and knowing this i still went for it. i had to buy extra hardware etc. there can be know doubt that HS is incredible sounding and you guys should rightly be proud. what it means is you are exemplary samplers, sound engineers, and musicians. but do your really want to be computer programmers as well....?


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## stevenson-again (Oct 31, 2010)

> So describe the process of using standalone? How do you route midi/audio to and from your DAW host? Plogue?



it's actually no different than using VEpro - just without the convenience of one house holding the whole party.

i am sending midi to plogue for midi processing (plogue also handles the rest of my template which is predominantly kontakt). midi is then sent to IAC busses 1-5.

midi is received by each individual standalone instance; violins 1 IAC bus 1, violins 2 IAC bus 2 etc.

i send the outputs of each patch (unfortunately it can't be set globally) to output 17-18, which is the first 2 channels of my ADAT out on my interface, looped back to inputs 17-18.

in logic i have an aux in my environment receiving audio from inputs 17-18, which is a mixed signal of all the standalone PLAY instances.


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## Peter Alexander (Oct 31, 2010)

It strikes me as one evaluating this library for my own purchase, that many of the issues discussed here and in other threads could largely be avoided with a handful of tech support PDFs themed around how to set up a basic HS template that enables you to record a section in one pass - which is how many work.

Providing lighter articulations for one mic position to get started for recording in one pass:

1. Demonstrates Gold setup on a single SSD drive (articulations )
2. Demonstrates Gold setup spread over several Caviar Black drives (7200RPM)
3. Demonstrates Diamond setup on a single SSD drive
4. Demonstrates Diamond setup spread over several Caviar Black drives (7200RPM)

One set for Mac today, and one set for the PC.

The PC is tending to be the more ideal system since PLAY on Mac, as noted some time ago in the SOL forum, is limited to 10GB of RAM in standalone vs. all it can read on the PC in a 64bit system. 

Given the critical importance of polyphony over RAM given HS's design, the PC question is whether or not there's any gain of an i7 900 Series vs Dual Xeon system with multiple SSD drives replacing Caviar Blacks w/24GB of RAM to start.


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## JFB (Oct 31, 2010)

Animus @ Sun Oct 31 said:


> So describe the process of using standalone? How do you route midi/audio to and from your DAW host? Plogue?



Midi is routed from Logic to all the Plogues using coremidi IAC Busses

I use a Lynx AES16e card in my mac. All the Plouge standalones are assigned to outputs 1-2. Output 1-2 goes to a one-input, 2 output AES/EBU splitter. Splitter Output 1 goes to my Benchmard DAC1. Splitter Output 2 goes back into the AES16e and a Logic audio track is set to that input for recording all that comes out of Output 1&2. I also have one slave PC and 3 hardware reverbs that get combined, as well. The combining of all the Standalone Plogues is done on by the Lynx coreaudio driver. It would be the same thing with any other coreaudio hardware.


----------



## Animus (Oct 31, 2010)

I am with stevenson. I am totally frustrated with PLAY. It's the most inconsistent piece of software I own. One session it's working fairly well and like today is spitting and belching like a little bitch, nothing system wise has changed. PLAY has a mind of its own. I just tried loading the plug on my main i7 rig just to test on a more powerful system. Glitches with the PowSys Leg Cello patch just trying to stream successive single notes.

I hate to say it but I believe it. Kontakt could run HS with absolutely no problems.


----------



## Animus (Oct 31, 2010)

JFB @ Sun Oct 31 said:


> Animus @ Sun Oct 31 said:
> 
> 
> > So describe the process of using standalone? How do you route midi/audio to and from your DAW host? Plogue?
> ...



thanks all. I think I will drudge on with the plugin vst as that would change my workflow too much and require even more expensive purchases.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 31, 2010)

it's a matter of trying to figure out exactly where the issue lies. i am now of the opinion that it is something to do with the PLAY memory server. i think the reason the standalone instances work and the plug-in works within copies of plogue is because it effectively bypasses the PLAY memory server. by creating a single application for every instance you want open, you create its own 4Gb memory space, rather than access the samples through the server.

this is why i think posting my efforts is important part of the trouble-shooting process. possibly now, even a google search may turn up clues for some one similarly struggling. i am not certain that i have the culprit but i think i have a strong suspect.

here is the procedure to reproduce:

- set your buffer to 1024 or 2048. set the engine to high or medium, and the voices to 128 or 512.
- set the midi assignment to incremental - so that as you load a patch it is assigned the next midi channel up.
- load a section plus articulations int VEpro sever, DAW, or plogue (always 32-bit). 1 instance per orchestral section.
- do this for the the full string band: vln 1, vln 2, vla, vcl, bs.
- load semi-lite patches 6 dynamic layers etc. no need to load anything too heavy.
- look at activity monitor and look for PLAY memory server.
- keep loading articulations until it hits around 6 Gb.
- start playing back arco's with some programming (cc1, cc7, cc22, cc11) one at a time and build up a texture.
- speed things up. ie faster notes. faster notes are where i think you will see the most glitching.
- try to play back a full section pizzicato or staccatissimo of 1/8th notes at 120 bpm. does it play back evenly? by full section i mean properly orchestrated across the various parts.
- do you get crackling and popping at some stage?
- keep going. save, quite and restart.
- do the patches load correctly?

if i am right, and you do get issues then the way to work around them is to make sure that no single instances can trigger the PLAY memory server to take care of the samples. you may find that on the start of playing back separate applications you get weird performance, but they sort themselves out and settle down with time. before you know it you are gobsmacked at how beautiful this library sounds and not at how rubbish PLAY is.


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## JFB (Oct 31, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Sun Oct 31 said:


> it's a matter of trying to figure out exactly where the issue lies. i am now of the opinion that it is something to do with the PLAY memory server. i think the reason the standalone instances work and the plug-in works within copies of plogue is because it effectively bypasses the PLAY memory server. by creating a single application for every instance you want open, you create its own 4Gb memory space, rather than access the samples through the server.



I'm pretty sure the Play memory server is still being used, as that's where the sample starts get loaded. It's the "prime buffers" (or whatever they call it) that gets loaded into the 4GB space of the host app. At least that's what I remember from the Play manual. The only way to test is if you can terminate the memory server, but you can't force-quit the process in activity monitor. 



> before you know it you are gobsmacked at how beautiful this library sounds and not at how rubbish PLAY is.



Didn't you see the part of the license agreement that says "As a condition of this license, user agrees to become a lifetime beta tester." 8)


----------



## germancomponist (Oct 31, 2010)

Thomas_J @ Mon Nov 01 said:


> 6) Just buy a PC already  ...
> 
> My advice to you, Stevenson, is get a PC slave and don't use VEPRO or Bidule if you can avoid it.



Hehe, Thomas,

do u exactly know what you are saying? :mrgreen: :roll: :mrgreen: :roll: o-[][]-o 

Ok ok, I know, Apple makes cool MP3 players but when it comes to modern high end computers, ...., better buy a PC! o=<


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 31, 2010)

TJ - finally I can utter the words - "not so keen on your latest piece"

(this is why I don't do stand up comedy)

Gunther said it alright... "do you know what you're saying"?!!! I'm anticipating an explosion of irate mac owners below. Am flinching involuntarily...

Well I have to say, Rohan does seem to have diagnosed this right. The AU version - unless anyone can contradict this - seems to be effectively broken. Rohan looks like he's got the best workaround by using the standalone.

Selflishly, as a PC owner, I'm quite encouraged. Anyone using Gold via the Play vst on a modest rig?


----------



## IFM (Oct 31, 2010)

Can we please not turn this into another Mac vs PC thread? It really is getting tiresome.

That being said as a huge mac person (came from PCs) I'll still likely end up building a PC too but to I still have a major aversion to Windows as I have to use it every day. 

I have Cubase too so I'll see if that runs any better.


----------



## noiseboyuk (Oct 31, 2010)

Dragonwind @ Sun Oct 31 said:


> Can we please not turn this into another Mac vs PC thread? It really is getting tiresome.



IHMO that's completely missing the point. What is being suggested here - largely as a result of Rohan's ceaseless fault-finding efforts - is that the current AU version of Play is not fit for purpose. I know TJ made the PC comment half in jest, but it's a pretty big issue for mac owners. I think all current and prospective owners of HS will want this discussion to continue (and follow Play's development across formats).

If buying a PC slave is the only way to make HS behave properly for mac owners, well that's pretty big news...

EDIT - thanks TJ - hopefully using bidule and standalone Play might be a cheaper solution for mac owners though!


----------



## JFB (Oct 31, 2010)

Thomas_J @ Sun Oct 31 said:


> Stevenson,



1) You are running the software in third party hosts such as VEPro/Bidule. That is not helping.[/quote]

Is this the Eastwest position? I mean, you _are_ a principal developer...



> 2) The load time issue is due to the parsing routine in the current version of PLAY and has been rewritten completely to work with binary data instead of XML. Expect a dramatic change in this very soon.



Hallelujah!! 



> 5) Your rant has largely taken place over the course of a weekend. Tech support is only operational from Mon-Fri.



This is a very slow process and not guaranteed to solve the problem. No reason he should have to wait if digging for answers on a forum can get him closer. 

As to the video...now I know what to do when Entertainment Tonight wants a Penderecki Polymorphy knock-off. ~o)


----------



## Animus (Oct 31, 2010)

germancomponist @ Sun Oct 31 said:


> Thomas_J @ Mon Nov 01 said:
> 
> 
> > 6) Just buy a PC already  ...
> ...



You are playing those voices with one patch with the same set of samples. How it work if you stream all the separate sections, something more real world?


----------



## synergy543 (Oct 31, 2010)

Thomas_J @ Sun Oct 31 said:


> 3) I know nothing about AU's but my suggestion is you use PLAY as a VST plug-in.
> 
> 6) Just buy a PC already
> 
> My advice to you, Stevenson, is get a PC slave and don't use VEPRO or Bidule if you can avoid it.



TJ, as PLAY Mac customer, your advice isn't taken kindly. I've invested many thousands of dollars on my PLAY Mac software and am now being told to "Just by a PC"? Great advice maybe, but as a Mac user, that sucks BIG TIME dude!

Busy as you and Nick may be, I suggest you both take a moment and carefully read all six pages of this thread on your own technical forum from beginning to end. PLAY is in serious need of support:

http://soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?t=30345

Happy Halloween dude, I'm totally spooked,

Greg


----------



## Peter Alexander (Oct 31, 2010)

Thomas_J @ Sun Oct 31 said:


> It works great, and in fact if you delegate a second SSD drive and a second instance to a different instrument section you should be able to almost double the performance I just displayed, on the same computer. This is the computer I've done all my demos on. I just loaded up 3 mic positions for the same instrument and I got some clicks around 690 voices. Streaming is working great here.



As a principal developer, I'm sure those on the PC would like to know the specs of your PC system, exactly how you're set up, and the results you're getting.


----------



## Dan Mott (Oct 31, 2010)

Long powerful system folder - Celli sustain 13 RR 

This starts off in tune, then gets flatter as the dynamics rise. I noticed this up againts the basses and the violas, I knew something with up in this case. It's not enough to bother me though, but I'd thought I'd chip in here aboutt he tuning thing.

In a way it's kind of cool that it's not "Perfect" because most sample libraries are too perfect and it just sounds too.... digital 

Dan.


----------



## Nick Phoenix (Oct 31, 2010)

PLAY is being asked to do some incredible things in HS. That's the problem. WE will get it sorted. KOntakt can't play HS at all. Kontakt cannot move sample starts in real time. The current PLAY is playing libraries like Silk and Pianos just fine. These are comparable in demand to libraries like LASS and other great Kontakt libraries. The bleeding edge is always a bit painful. Would you rather we didn't push the envelope and drove our fancy sport cars around putting out mediocre stuff? :wink:


----------



## synergy543 (Oct 31, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Sun Oct 31 said:


> PLAY is being asked to do some incredible things in HS. That's the problem.


Thomas says there isn't a problem on PCs. So why is there a problem on the Mac?



Nick Phoenix @ Sun Oct 31 said:


> WE will get it sorted.


Did you read the link to the thread in your technical support forum I posted above?

There are other problems with PLAY aside from what is surfacing with Rohan regarding memory handling. Are these being addressed? There was no response other than denial in your tech support forum from EW.



Nick Phoenix @ Sun Oct 31 said:


> KOntakt can't play HS at all. Kontakt cannot move sample starts in real time.


Kontakt just works....finally. It took them a long time. In comparision, PLAY is still very limited. I cannot set my own keyswitches, I cannot assign my own CCs, etc.



Nick Phoenix @ Sun Oct 31 said:


> The current PLAY is playing libraries like Silk and Pianos just fine. These are comparable in demand to libraries like LASS and other great Kontakt libraries.


Yes, it works as a limited rompler. Although functions are greatly limited and memory management could be greatly improved.

Not at all comparable in terms of functionality and flexibility to Kontakt or VI though.



Nick Phoenix @ Sun Oct 31 said:


> The bleeding edge is always a bit painful. Would you rather we didn't push the envelope and drove our fancy sport cars around putting out mediocre stuff? :wink:


Nick, your samples are great! We both know that. 

Its the software that just needs to be fixed. If VSL can do it, EW can do it right too.

If your fancy car didn't quite work as well as a Kompakt, would you be happy (just cause "life on the bleeding edge is painful"?) or would you want it fixed? :wink:


----------



## stevenson-again (Nov 1, 2010)

lovely to see nick and thomas here - their input is ALWAYS much appreciated. i do think it worth responding for my part.

Stevenson, 



> 1) You are running the software in third party hosts such as VEPro/Bidule. That is not helping.



that's an extremely odd position. running a slave PC is a third party host solution. what would i run PLAY in there if i wanted to have a full section with articulations?



> 2) The load time issue is due to the parsing routine in the current version of PLAY and has been rewritten completely to work with binary data instead of XML. Expect a dramatic change in this very soon.



that's great to know - finally. had i known that a bit sooner it might have spent less time trying to troubleshoot that issue. 



> 3) I know nothing about AU's but my suggestion is you use PLAY as a VST plug-in.



i did try, but the VST crashed plogue every time and VST doesn't run in logic.



> 4) CC22 is working perfectly fine here. It's a continuous controller like a sustain pedal. 0 equals polyphonic. True polyphonic legato is coming.



no, according to your manual higher values mean polyphonic behaviour is turned on. lower values turn on monophonic. it absolutely does not work here no matter what i do - except it suddenly started working for the cellos. are there any special tricks or limitations not covered by the manaul i should be aware of?



> 5) Your rant has largely taken place over the course of a weekend. Tech support is only operational from Mon-Fri.



mate - i really object to this. it was NOT a rant. at times i have expressed my frustration which i feel entirely entitled to do. i posted to your technical support last weekend. i received a reply on tuesday asking for the mp3s to be sent to them, and i have heard nothing since. wouldn't you want to get to the bottom of problems you are having as soon as possible? i don't know many musicians in my line of work who when busy on a project respect weekends. i wanted to get to the bottom of it and i wasn't hearing anything from them.



> 6) Just buy a PC already



well sure! i might just have to, but if you are going to release this thing for the mac at LEAST beta-test the thing properly and uncover the issues. i know this is a big puppy, and i know to an extent we are out on the bleeding edge, and i expect to have to fart about to set things up to an extent. you should ask yourself - if i can run the exact same thing one way, why can i not run it another way when that other way is the most expected way to run it.



> I really don't understand how you guys wind up with so many problems. Streaming is equal to or better than Kontakt on my fairly humble PC rig. Here's a youtube video I just made to prove it:



thomas, if you are serious about understanding what the issue is here for me i suggest you read through my posts carefully once more. it is not a sò5å   îà5å   îá5å   îâ5å   îã5å   îä5å   îå5å   îæ5å   îç5å   îè5å   îé5å   îê5å   îë5å   îì5å   îí5å   îî5å   îï5å   îð5å   îñ5å   îò5å   îó5å   îô5å   îõ5å   îö5å   î÷5å   îø5å   îù5å   îú5å   îû5å   îü5å   îý5å   îþ5å   îÿ5å   î 5å   î5å   î5å   î5å   î5å   î5å   î5å   î5å   î5å   î	5å   î
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----------



## stevenson-again (Nov 1, 2010)

thanks for your support guy,

yes, i think the SSD is largely irrelevant. if we had more control over the pre-load buffers then it would not be - we could reduce the pre-loads right down and exploit the SSD fast seek times and streaming. i would suggest now the best use of the SSD is to *put everything else except HS on it.*

if you put your kontakt library on it, you could reduce your preload buffer there and free up more RAM for HS. since such a healthy amount goes into RAM for PLAY anyway, it would make sense to allow that to dominate RAM usage and try to reduce it for the rest of your template.

hopefully this situation will reverse when PLAY is improved and we have more control over preload sample headers loaded into RAM.

watching the HD monitors i downloaded from istat, i was finding with what i had loaded up that PLAY was barely tickling my SSD, even on some of the sustains. i have each instance reduced down to 128 voices and engine level set to medium. in standalone everything plays just beautifully - and those dodgy spiccs and staccs and pizzs play back perfectly in time. it wasn't in the programming after all.


----------



## noiseboyuk (Nov 1, 2010)

Thanks, really interesting idea about putting other libs on it and reducing the preload.


----------



## NYC Composer (Nov 1, 2010)

Guys like Rohan and Jay are doing me a service by troubleshooting HS on Mac, as I am trying to decide whether to invest in it or not. I fail to understand how Rohan's describing his problems and frustrations with HS equals a 'rant'. It seems to me he's been polite and has lauded the sound of HS while being frustrated by the performance.

I own many EW libraries because EW's sampling work is stellar, but I will never understand the philosophy of the Company when it comes to "blame the end user, you can always backtrack later." I still remember the times I was told how I was not using WordBuilder properly and there were no problems with it when there clearly were, and how I was told pre-1.2.5 that Play was acting properly-when clearly it wasn't.

"Buy a PC"?? Really? Why put out a Mac version?


----------



## stevenson-again (Nov 1, 2010)

> "Buy a PC"?? Really? Why put out a Mac version?



in thomas's defense i think that was tongue-in-cheek. don't take that too seriously.


----------



## NYC Composer (Nov 1, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Mon Nov 01 said:


> > "Buy a PC"?? Really? Why put out a Mac version?
> 
> 
> 
> in thomas's defense i think that was tongue-in-cheek. don't take that too seriously.



Sort of. He went on to support it.


----------



## noiseboyuk (Nov 1, 2010)

Just idly reading John Powell's Q&A at Soundsonline while waiting for another Kontakt-enforced reboot, and found this, regarding his rig:



> Everything is in 3 mac pros - logic in each, plogue hosting other plugins - EW Play in each one - all networked together.... everything dumped into protools at the end for scoring and mixing.



If it's good enough for him...


----------



## Peter Alexander (Nov 1, 2010)

Thomas_J @ Sun Oct 31 said:


> ...get a PC slave and don't use VEPRO or Bidule if you can avoid it.



This gets back to my earlier post. What's the suggested slave setup today on a PC if you're not using VEPro or Bidule?


----------



## JohnG (Nov 1, 2010)

Hi Rohan,

One or two things that I hope will help:



stevenson-again @ 1st November 2010 said:


> > 1) You are running the software in third party hosts such as VEPro/Bidule. That is not helping.
> 
> 
> 
> that's an extremely odd position. running a slave PC is a third party host solution. what would i run PLAY in there if i wanted to have a full section with articulations?



You just run PLAY in standalone mode. Then it accesses all processors available. I realise you are trying to swap midi cc commands and you are using Plogue for that. But anyway, see the next comment as maybe it will help you as well.



stevenson-again @ 1st November 2010 said:


> > 3) I know nothing about AU's but my suggestion is you use PLAY as a VST plug-in.
> 
> 
> 
> i did try, but the VST crashed plogue every time and VST doesn't run in logic.



When adding a VST of PLAY to Plogue, you have to use the "default ins and outs" version. Then it won't crash Plogue when you hook the outputs from PLAY up to your audio out thingy. Not sure if this was your problem or not.


----------



## stevenson-again (Nov 1, 2010)

hi john,

i neglexted to respond to na ealrier post of yours - sorry.

i am not trying to run PLAY in logic. that is not really feasible. not least because i would then no longer be backwards compatible with previous projects.




> You just run PLAY in standalone mode.



so effectively what i am doing now except on a PC instead of a mac.

it's not really an elegant solution is it? i have to have 5 PLAY instances, one for each section. each instance has most of the articulations i will need loaded up. i can use routing in logic or bidule to convert my program changes to access the articulations.

i don't know, but i would have thought that running bidule on a PC would be fine - because it is 64bit. no memory servers....if indeed the memory server is really what the problem was.

thanks for the tip about the VST. might be worth a try at some stage. i suspect i will have the same problem, but it would be interesting to see. i wouldn't have known that if you hadn't posted. this is why discussing stuff like this on a forum is a good idea. i learnt something new today...if i had just tried suffering in silence or waiting for technical support to get back to me i would be none the wiser. good thing i started this discussion eh?


----------



## Nick Phoenix (Nov 1, 2010)

I think the "buy a PC comment" was more or less a joke. Thomas and I like to post honestly on this forum without a filter, but often times it is a bit problematic. >8o 
Really we should probably stay out of the tech area and leave that to those guys. We are just trying to help.


----------



## stevenson-again (Nov 1, 2010)

in all honesty nick, your presence here is very welcome... if only to show that you're listening. i certainly took thomas's remark as a joke, even if half-joking. clearly there is not such a big problem on PCs with PLAY, so if you want the trouble-free PLAY performance PC's are probably the better bet.

just be patient with us when we are in the midst of technical crisis - it can get very frustrating. if it were me in your position i would hate to think someone was having such a hard time with something that you have invested so much time, money and effort.

but please also bear in mind we are not all newbs or technical imbeciles. i am not trying to run HS with a bicycle, a couple of elastic bands and some duct-tape. i was just looking for any clue's what-so-ever as to why things weren't working. and speaking of your tech guys i still haven't heard from them...

i sent them pretty detailed emails on how to reproduce and the problems i have been encountering. it would be great to have some sort of confirmation or clues as to why something is the way it is - for example thomas dropping the 'parsing' bit of info. that stuff is really worth knowing....


----------



## midphase (Nov 1, 2010)

I think that putting a smiley face after saying something douch-y isn't always the cure to make what one just said un-douchy.

...just sayin'


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## Guy Bacos (Nov 1, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Mon Nov 01 said:


> i am not trying to run HS with a bicycle, a couple of elastic bands and some duct-tape.



LOL


----------



## Nick Phoenix (Nov 1, 2010)

Insert undouchy Emoticon here:

I know the tech guys are looking at your problems. It was the weekend. And if I didn't take your problems seriously, I wouldn't be posting here.


----------



## tripit (Nov 1, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Mon Nov 01 said:


> I think the "buy a PC comment" was more or less a joke. Thomas and I like to post honestly on this forum without a filter, but often times it is a bit problematic. >8o
> Really we should probably stay out of the tech area and leave that to those guys. We are just trying to help.



Personally, I am happy to have yours and TJ's input, even if it gets you guys into trouble now and then. It's one of the things that makes this forum so valuable. But, with that said, I really think EW needs to put sorting out the Mac / Play issues on the very top of the priority list if you haven't done so already. 

There are some big issues going on (like the memory hold issue for one) and the longer it takes to sort out, the more vocal the Mac crowd is going to get - and like or not, you do have a significant Mac user base to deal with, and they can be very vocal >8o 

P.S - By the way, I use both Mac and PC's as many of us do.


----------



## stevenson-again (Nov 1, 2010)

> I know the tech guys are looking at your problems. It was the weekend. And if I didn't take your problems seriously, I wouldn't be posting here.



i know mate. believe me it IS appreciated. don't forget too - i HAVE found a workaround. i am not completely out of the woods...i think a midi loop occurs from time to time and one of the PLAY instances crashes - but once it is all up and running it stays up and running. i have been working solidly all day with HS. no glitches, no mad timing problems. it does work.


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## Animus (Nov 1, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Mon Nov 01 said:


> > I know the tech guys are looking at your problems. It was the weekend. And if I didn't take your problems seriously, I wouldn't be posting here.
> 
> 
> 
> i know mate. believe me it IS appreciated. don't forget too - i HAVE found a workaround. i am not completely out of the woods...i think a midi loop occurs from time to time and one of the PLAY instances crashes - but once it is all up and running it stays up and running. i have been working solidly all day with HS. no glitches, no mad timing problems. it does work.



The problem I have seen is that it will work perfectly fine one day but the next..... Don't get too comfortable in other words.


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## synergy543 (Nov 1, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Mon Nov 01 said:


> Thomas and I like to post honestly on this forum without a filter, but often times it is a bit problematic. >8o
> Really we should probably stay out of the tech area and leave that to those guys. We are just trying to help.


I just wanted to add that I greatly appreciate that both Nick and TJs participation here despite my seemingly sharp words in this thread. The messages seems to have gotten across so mission accomplished. I'm sure you'll look into these issues. Thanks guys for bearing with overly sensitive customers. :wink:

I tip my hat in respect to you both. o-[][]-o

Greg

btw TJ, I've got a PC sitting next to me, and its the damnest thing...Constantly updating whenever it feels, giving security warnings and such! I feel your pain man. :roll:


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## Peter Alexander (Nov 1, 2010)

synergy543 @ Mon Nov 01 said:


> and its the damnest thing...Constantly updating whenever it feels, giving security warnings and such!



That can be turned off.


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## synergy543 (Nov 1, 2010)

Peter Alexander @ Mon Nov 01 said:


> synergy543 @ Mon Nov 01 said:
> 
> 
> > and its the damnest thing...Constantly updating whenever it feels, giving security warnings and such!
> ...


I was just being cheeky (thus the rolling eyes)...we actually have about twenty PCs here.


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## stevenson-again (Nov 1, 2010)

thomas, my name is rohan. even my dad isn't mr stevenson....


thanks for the conciliatory remarks but i think you are missing something rather important....

i AM up and running.

not, admittedly, the way i want to be, but i *have* found a work around.

and it's a work around, not exactly a solution. what that means is, my hardware is up to the job but the software seems to have issues requiring working around. i don't know if you have done any beta-testing, but it is a process of elimination until you can narrow down a culprit, and then compiling a specific steps to reproduce. during the process, it is useful to have feedback from others, to confirm some things, or to say that the circumstances described do not match their experience. beta-testers often have private forums where they discuss these things until the culprit is found and the collective experience can be passed on to the developer. failing one of those, all i have is this place, where i have found that knowledgeable people (admittedly very often with with rather strong opinions) hang out, and their help has been invaluable in my efforts to get going.

if it were the case that there are loads of people with the same set up as myself wanting to run PLAY and HS in the same way as me, i would love - dearly love to hear from them. it would help me to isolate the differences in my system that could cause the specific problems i encountered. for example, i am running 10.5.8, not snow leopard. that may have been a factor. why i aren't they here though? i wish they had spoken up, these great masses of happy PLAY&MAC™ users.

i actually do appreciate that things are working on the PC side. my guess is that it is because it is all 64bit. it rather points to the PLAY memory server as being the problem. if that IS the case, then now you know and you can advise future customers that running multiple instances of PLAY from within a 32bit host may not work (especially on a mac). 

they will go: 'how are we supposed to run our articulation switches then?' 
and then you can go 'well, the tech guys are working on a solution, but as a work around you can make copies of the PLAY application and load what you need that way'.
they will probably say 'oh, really?'
and you can say 'really.'
and they will probably say 'really, really?'
and you can say' really, really.'
and they might mutter something grumpily like 'not a very elegant solution...'
and you can back right at them with 'well, it is a work around and a temporary solution. but it will work.'

as a completely separate issue, there are some usability issues which boil down to pretty severe limitations with PLAY more generally. but my understanding is that there is a new version coming out that might allow us to modify some of the programming to fit in better with our work flows. here's to hoping.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 1, 2010)

EW HAS said that even with a reasonably powerful rig, you have to expect to do some bouncing, as Thomas has with his demos.


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## José Herring (Nov 1, 2010)

----


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## stevenson-again (Nov 1, 2010)

> Sorry Rohan, if it doesn't conform to your preferred way of working, but this topic at this point is now pretty moot.



err...really?

harping on about what exactly?

are people even reading what i have been writing? first thomas, now you....

come on jose...get with the program....as it were.

i HAVE got things up to my preferred way of working insofar as i have logic running and HS in the background. it's a work around for the problem, but it WORKS. i have my articulations loaded up into 5 instances of PLAY corresponding to the sections of the string orchestra and it all works fine. it's just that it is not a terribly elegant solution. ideally you have something plogue or VEpro with your entire template loaded, which loads in one fell swoop, rather than 5 apps plus a 6th for the rest of your template.

what i was trying to point out with my last post is that if i can find a work around that works it all, it eliminates my setup as being the source of the problem i initially encountered. i am also concerned that everyone thinks that the issue with getting HS going is entirely down to streaming - at least on the mac side. what i hoped i have shown is that it is not.


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## José Herring (Nov 1, 2010)

----


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## stevenson-again (Nov 1, 2010)

thanks nyc,,,,

i have a wee bit more information to throw into the mix.

my performance has fallen off again. notes cutting off etc etc. very very little is going on, just 3 voice or 4 sustained notes across the band and i am watching the HD activity meters and there is very very little activity from the SSD but quite a bit from my system drive.

looking at my page ins and outs and swap files - take a look at the picture. there is a fair bit more going on than i am entirely satisfied is healthy...

what this suggests to me is that my system drive is somehow involved in the virtual memory going on for the PLAY memory server. Play memory server is showing 1.92 Gb real memory and 6.4 Gb virtual memory.

there isn't a great deal, but there is still slack in the system. i am willing to bet a restart of the whole system will fix the current problems, but i think i am being nibbled by the same issue that attacked me trying to run plug-in instances in a single program.

i will of course pass this on to technical support. but just so's you guy's know...


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## synergy543 (Nov 1, 2010)

josejherring @ Mon Nov 01 said:


> I actually found Rohan's experience very informative, but just feel like he's beating a dead horse at this point.


Jose, read this page and tell me its a dead horse. There are serious memory issues on the Mac that need to be addressed.

http://soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?t=30345&page=5 (http://soundsonline-forums.com/showthre ... 345&amp;page=5)


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## Animus (Nov 1, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Mon Nov 01 said:


> thanks nyc,,,,
> 
> i have a wee bit more information to throw into the mix.
> 
> ...



haha Did I not warn you? 


I am on a pc and I have to say it's not all rosy over this side of the fence either. I've done a lot of testing and think maybe something might be up with the buffering of PLAY or how it interacts with a given system's memory addressing. Just today I was playing around with a PowSys legato cello. When I first started playing a phrase I was getting glitches on note starts especially when playing real fast. But after I played through thò6É   îFW6É   îFX6É   îFY6É   îFZ6É   îF[6É   îF\6É   îF]6É   îF^6É   îF_6É   îF`6É   îFa6É   îFb6É   îFc6É   îFd6Ê   îFe6Ê   îFf6Ê   îFg6Ê   îFh6Ê   îFi6Ê   îFj6Ê   îFk6Ê   îFl6Ê   îFm6Ê   îFn6Ê   îFo6Ê   îFp6Ê   îFq6Ê   îFr6Ê   îFs6Ê   îFt6Ê   îFu6Ê   îFv6Ê   îFw6Ê


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## stevenson-again (Nov 1, 2010)

> But after I played through the phrase a few times it could play it back perfectly even at a super fast speed but as soon as I threw in a note I hadn't played before it would glitch and take a bit to play right again. So maybe Windows is swapping to disk or something even though there's more than enough ram available.



i think i know what's going on there, and i don't think it is unique to PC's or PLAY. i think the operating system or possibly even the drive itself records what you are most commonly accessing and index's it so it can be retrieved faster. i don't know the techncal ins and outs of it, but i think that happens quite a bit with kontakt and certainly ivory.


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## Animus (Nov 1, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Mon Nov 01 said:


> > But after I played through the phrase a few times it could play it back perfectly even at a super fast speed but as soon as I threw in a note I hadn't played before it would glitch and take a bit to play right again. So maybe Windows is swapping to disk or something even though there's more than enough ram available.
> 
> 
> 
> i think i know what's going on there, and i don't think it is unique to PC's or PLAY. i think the operating system or possibly even the drive itself records what you are most commonly accessing and index's it so it can be retrieved faster. i don't know the techncal ins and outs of it, but i think that happens quite a bit with kontakt and certainly ivory.



Yeah I thought of that but my system's capacity to play back one monophonic line off a SSD should be more than enough to playback without any buffering like that. Doesn't happen at all with Kontakt here.


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## JFB (Nov 1, 2010)

Synergy,

You don't have to reboot. Just install the Xcode tools from your OSX DVD so you can run the "purge" command in the Terminal App. It'll waste about 3GB of your system drive, but running this command is a helluva lot faster than rebooting or reloading.


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## stevenson-again (Nov 1, 2010)

> Play caches ram into Inactive memory far in excess of Wired and Active while it's loading. Once Inactive Memory gets filled the OS starts paging out and creates a swap file. And your swap file is HUGE, which will certainly slow things down. I installed the Xcode tools just so I could have the "purge" command in Terminal available, which I've assigned to a macro key. This command clears out Inactive memory and returns it to Free. While my template is loading and Free memory is almost gone I run "purge", loading briefly pauses and all the Inactive gets returned to Free. After the template finishes loading, I run "purge" again.



btw - this is really interesting - and a little scary. thanks for the info. might need to look into it.


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## Animus (Nov 1, 2010)

JFB @ Mon Nov 01 said:


> stevenson-again @ Mon Nov 01 said:
> 
> 
> > thanks nyc,,,,
> ...



thanks for the xcellent tip! I wonder if there is a similiar tool for Windows.


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## JFB (Nov 1, 2010)

synergy543 @ Mon Nov 01 said:


> JFB @ Mon Nov 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Synergy,
> > I'll look into your suggestion as a better "temporary fix". However, what does purge active memory do to other apps that are running?



Just to be pedantic, the majority of what gets purged is "inactive memory" (the blue wedge in the pie chart).

Currently open apps will have to re-cache some things like graphics and other bits they load from initial startup, but it's nothing. Like a tiny blip. Some sample streaming software may have a brief glitch at first run after purging, but as I said, it's just a blip. (For ex., I use osx Spaces. After purging, switching to another Space is a bit glitchy, but only the first time. Smooth gliding after that.)

Running purge is almost identical to restarting the computer, but only takes a few seconds. Still orders of magnitude faster than rebooting and reloading.


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## synergy543 (Nov 1, 2010)

Thanks JFB. Sounds like the best solution so far!

I'll get an Xcode tutorial from my tech to bring me up to speed and give it a shot as the terminal scares the bejeezus out of me.

Note to NICK: *Consider adding a PURGE Memory button into PLAY*
(He probably drove over to Lawry's in his fancy car and is having a nice steak dinner... o/~ ...more Ramen for me tonight. )


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## stevenson-again (Nov 1, 2010)

> Too Much?
> 
> I guess, Rohan, in re-reading some of the posts on the thread, I am starting to wonder whether maybe your hope to replace all your strings with HS on a single machine, one that also houses your DAW, is just a bridge too far, if indeed that's what you're trying to do. I am not completely sure because there is a bit of a stream-of-consciousness to the thread and it's now kind of long.
> 
> To use HS to such an extent that it becomes your sole string library, you really need to deploy a lot of resources, far more than a typical combination DAW/sample playback setup is going to afford. Alternatively, you could use only the most simplified patches, which might work. I prefer the medium-to-large ones and I'm sure everyone does, you included. I also like multiple mic positions, so that's another big drain.



at this stage i am only using GOLD. i have gone for fairly light weight patches even there while i am in this phase of trouble shooting. but what i can't compromise on is program changes for articulation switches. without that, it's a non-starter. what i think is:

either ultimately i get a PC slave. perhaps having 5 instances standalone on that would be fine and plogue to house the rest of the library.

OR

as machines get bigger and more powerful it may well be possible to run on one machine. CPU is still not the bottleneck. RAM and streaming are the issue to look at. i could either get a PC slave or for the same price max out the RAM on my machine. if there was both greater flexibility with PLAY and greater reliability on the mac that might be serious option. i am certainly not into multiple mic positions (which is why i went for GOLD) so provided there was enough RAM, and i could control the streaming vs RAM footprint issue, then it would be feasible to have your template on one machine, by perhaps spreading the high performance libraries onto SSDs.

i mean, if we are talking about 12-core computers with hyper-threading, that is the same as buying 3 quad-cores isn't it? that's a lot less clutter fewer power sockets to worry about. i think most top-spec slaves are only quad-cores. not only that, a colleague was telling me about a version of parallells....i mean you could quite easily with computer like that run windows alongside OSX - it works perfectly well apparently, so we could even slave to a PC on our mac....

dunno how that would work in practice. someone want to have a go?


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## JohnG (Nov 1, 2010)

stevenson-again @ 1st November 2010 said:


> so how much are you loading into PLAY? what does your memory server say?



Since you are trying to keep everything out of Logic, I ran a little experiment so that PLAY would be separate from that. Now I think I understand better what you are aiming to accomplish.

1. I have two instances of PLAY open.

2. I put the V1, V2, and VCL into the first instance, with CB and VLA in the second, just as a test.

3. I used midi assignment "PlayStandalone1" for the first instance of PLAY (this is just a name I gave a midi out from DP in Interapplication Midi, not some PLAY thing) and, cleverly, "PlayStandalone2" for the other.

4. Audio coming back in through hardware loopback.

5. It appears that only one PlayMemoryServer is operating, but there are two instances of PLAY in the Activity Monitor.

6. Memory (real memory, not virtual):

a. PLAYMemoryServer -- 792MB
b. Digital Performer -- 522 MB
c. PLAY -- 504 MB
d. PLAY -- 311 MB


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## tripit (Nov 1, 2010)

synergy543 @ Mon Nov 01 said:


> JFB @ Mon Nov 01 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know which version of OSX you run (I run 10.6.4), but have you ever watched Activity Monitor while loading HS? Play caches ram into Inactive memory far in excess of Wired and Active while it's loading. Once Inactive Memory gets filled the OS starts paging out and creates a swap file. And your swap file is HUGE, which will certainly slow things down. I installed the Xcode tools just so I could have the "purge" command in Terminal available, which I've assigned to a macro key. This command clears out Inactive memory and returns it to Free. While my template is loading and Free memory is almost gone I run "purge", loading briefly pauses and all the Inactive gets returned to Free. After the template finishes loading, I run "purge" again.
> ...



I've been dealing with this exact problem and have a ticket in with EW tech about it. I load a Play template up of about 4.75 gigs in size. On my rig with 22 gigs of ram, I'll have only 3.6 gigs of free ram left (plus another 3 in inactive). I run repair disc permissions and the free memory goes up to 14 gigs (plus 3 gigs inactive) 
I have to repair permissions after loading Play otherwise I can't even load the rest of my session template. 
I didn't even think about using xcode, which is a much better idea. But, really we shouldn't have to be dumping the memory every time load up Play stuff. I have to do it several times a day, either when I add stuff or change out the template.


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## tripit (Nov 1, 2010)

synergy543 @ Mon Nov 01 said:


> Thanks JFB. Sounds like the best solution so far!



Likewise, thanks for that tip





synergy543 @ Mon Nov 01 said:


> Note to NICK: *Consider adding a PURGE Memory button into PLAY*
> (He probably drove over to Lawry's in his fancy car and is having a nice steak dinner... o/~ ...more Ramen for me tonight. )



+100


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## Ashermusic (Nov 1, 2010)

synergy543 @ Mon Nov 01 said:


> Thanks JFB. Sounds like the best solution so far!
> 
> I'll get an Xcode tutorial from my tech to bring me up to speed and give it a shot as the terminal scares the bejeezus out of me.
> 
> ...



Lawry's serves prime rib, not steak. :twisted:


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## stevenson-again (Nov 2, 2010)

hi john,

ideally you should probably load per string section. so an instance for violin 1, an instance for violin 2 etc. 5 in total.

BTW...does anyone know how to stop HS from sending midi to the outside world? it's causing major problems here when step timing. anybody know a clever trick to filter it's midi output? what's happening is, i play a note which gets entered into the sequencer, and it also plays the respective PLAY instance, but the midi passed back to the sequencer input, so i get a duplicate note. it causes other problems beside that i won't bore you with...

any midi genius's here with a good idea? jay?

i have btw, ensure the IAC busses are not going through to the sequencer and have plugged just my external keyboard into the sequencer input.


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## IFM (Nov 2, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Tue Nov 02 said:


> BTW...does anyone know how to stop HS from sending midi to the outside world? it's causing major problems here when step timing. anybody know a clever trick to filter it's midi output? what's happening is, i play a note which gets entered into the sequencer, and it also plays the respective PLAY instance, but the midi passed back to the sequencer input, so i get a duplicate note. it causes other problems beside that i won't bore you with...
> 
> any midi genius's here with a good idea? jay?
> 
> i have btw, ensure the IAC busses are not going through to the sequencer and have plugged just my external keyboard into the sequencer input.



Open the environment in Logic and got to 'Clicks & Ports'. There you will see a cable running from SUM to either the keyboard, input monitor, and/or sequencer input. Highlight that cable and delete it. Then re-cable the input only from the MIDI in from your controller or whatever particular MIDI input you want. 

Chris


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## stevenson-again (Nov 2, 2010)

thanks chris, but i have done that already. it is having no effect. i am perplexed as to where this midi is coming from. it may actually be a logic issue....i actually am not sure where the blame lies on this. i can rule out IAC because i tried it with using bidule outputs but it had the same effect - ie no change.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 2, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Tue Nov 02 said:


> thanks chris, but i have done that already. it is having no effect. i am perplexed as to where this midi is coming from. it may actually be a logic issue....i actually am not sure where the blame lies on this. i can rule out IAC because i tried it with using bidule outputs but it had the same effect - ie no change.



I am guessing you already tried cabling the sum of s "dead end" instrument and then cabling the specific MIDI ports to the Sequencer Input?


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## JohnG (Nov 2, 2010)

The midi issue must be a Logic thing. I have never seen that with PLAY.


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## stevenson-again (Nov 2, 2010)

yes i have done that AS WELL as disconnecting sum. the only cable going to sequencer input is my physical midi keyboard. it was occuring with bidule as well - just on the HS tracks. i think what it is is that PLAY sends midi to the outside world and you can't turn that off. it would be no big deal if i could figure out a way of filtering it with logic. i would say it is a predominantly logic issue. i seem to recall having similar problems with kopakt when i used that in standalone mode eaons ago.


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## IFM (Nov 2, 2010)

If you have everything disconnected in Logic then Logic is not the issue. You must be receiving a MIDI signal elsewhere. Check the PLAY preferences.


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## stevenson-again (Nov 2, 2010)

you can be sure i have. i think it is both a logic and a PLAY issue. i should be able to turn off the midi send in PLAY (if that is what is happening) but there is no setting, but i should also be able to make logic ignore it, which i also can't.

BTW my biggest frustration at the moment is that CC22 just is not working to get me into polyphonic mode. it's the biggest headache i have at the moment.


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## JohnG (Nov 2, 2010)

stevenson-again @ 2nd November 2010 said:


> i think what it is is that PLAY sends midi to the outside world and you can't turn that off.



Maybe PLAY sends midi, but I have never seen anything like that. No double notes, no midi coming from PLAY either in standalone, in Bidule, or within DP when used as a plugin.

I am really not sure if I can follow how you are using it at this point but if it's in a host could it be the host somehow with midi echo on or something like that?


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## stevenson-again (Nov 2, 2010)

as a plug-in in a host, the midi's destination is the plug-in. but when the plug-in is standalone, it is the host itself. it's just like an old fashioned sampler - synthesizer. it has midi thru capabilities. remember the old dyas when you had midi in, out and thru on your synths? it's the same thing. in kontakt, you have preference turning this on and off 'send midi to the outside world'.

what is happening in PLAY is that it is receiving the midi and sending it to a midi output which is some getting back to logic. i may acutally be able to filter it with a setting on my physical ksybaord since that is the only route it has to get into logic - unless there is something deep and hidden within logic meaning it can listen in to these outside midi messages. it's very mysterious. i know a midi guru who may be able to advise me on this but he isn't on fora. i'm waiting to hear back. be great if someone else knew about it...

EDIT:

ncidentally - i forgot to mention that clicking on the keybaord in clicks and ports inserts a note properly, without duplicating. but hitting my piano keyboard is causing the duplication....

EDIT AGAIN:

not only that if i disconnect *everything* from the sequencer input and i play a note on my piano keyboard, notes still enter into score - only they are not duplicated. if i click a note with step input activated another note is created. it means logic's score editor must have some sort of independent input for the score editor.

weird.

and annoying.


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## JohnG (Nov 2, 2010)

does that mean it has nothing to do with PLAY?

I know what you mean about Kontakt -- you can use midi thru capabilities with it, not that I've ever done that. I don't have any midi coming back from anything because I always assumed it would cause problems.

are you still using all those splitters in Bidule? could they have anything to do with it?


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## stevenson-again (Nov 2, 2010)

i have heard back from my dude. apparently the step input in the score listens to all midi output info. so exactly as i thought - it's combination of programming oversights on both apps.

on another matter, has anyone thought about using http://www.parallels.com/uk/products/desktop/discover/

to run bidule or play standalone, since they are 64bit apps already?

i know that parallels can allow you to run DAWs - i have seen a picture of fruityloops being run on a mac. i am told there is virtually no overhead, that it's quite possible to do. that might be the solution for the memory server problems on the 32bit mac side of not just PLAY but kontakt as well.

anyone want to have a go?


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## sinkd (Nov 3, 2010)

JFB @ Mon Nov 01 said:


> Play caches ram into Inactive memory far in excess of Wired and Active while it's loading. Once Inactive Memory gets filled the OS starts paging out and creates a swap file. And your swap file is HUGE, which will certainly slow things down. I installed the Xcode tools just so I could have the "purge" command in Terminal available, which I've assigned to a macro key. This command clears out Inactive memory and returns it to Free. While my template is loading and Free memory is almost gone I run "purge", loading briefly pauses and all the Inactive gets returned to Free. After the template finishes loading, I run "purge" again.



This thread should be enshrined in the pagoda of eternal enlightenment just because it flushed out this gold-plated tip.

JFB-- you are a god among men, or whatever gender with which you choose to affiliate. I am eternally in your debt.

DS


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## synergy543 (Nov 3, 2010)

sinkd @ Wed Nov 03 said:


> JFB-- you are a god among men, or whatever gender with which you choose to affiliate. I am eternally in your debt.
> 
> DS


Yes, I can confirm what JFB suggested works! *It solves the PLAY Mystery Memory Bug!*

Here's what I did:

I installed XCode (you only need to install the CHUD.pkg, not the whole XCode), and then open the teminal and type "purge", and hit the Return key.

Thats it! * it restores all of the memory PLAY gobbled up!*

My tech (brother) added a command on the desktop so I can run this command with a single button click! Yippee!

*Doug and Nick, you should add this button click into PLAY for all users! * Every click saves me 30 minutes of reboot and reload time or repair permissions.
o-[][]-o /\~O o-[][]-o 

Your "sensitive customer" :wink: 

Greg


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## JFB (Nov 3, 2010)

sinkd @ Wed Nov 03 said:


> JFB @ Mon Nov 01 said:
> 
> 
> > This thread should be enshrined in the pagoda of eternal enlightenment just because it flushed out this gold-plated tip.
> ...


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## Dick the Flick (Nov 4, 2010)

> Yes, I can confirm what JFB suggested works! It solves the PLAY Mystery Memory Bug!
> 
> Here's what I did:
> 
> ...



I've been happily using PLAY for some time but HS has caused we Mac users memory problems simply from its sheer size. It's a marvelous piece of kit, I've been using it very successfully, but only when rendering part by part to audio as I go. By the end of November I will be clear of a movie score that's taken up a year of my life and I'm looking at where to go next, gear wise, to optimise everything ....... 32 BIT to 64 ..... OSX upgrade etc.

I'd really appreciate any thoughts that you might have about this approach to the PLAY memory issue Nick and indeed for those of us that :-


> the terminal scares the bejeezus out of


 ...... me to Synergy!

Is this something EastWest might consider fitting as a PLAY Key Command?


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## synergy543 (Nov 4, 2010)

Dick the Flick @ Thu Nov 04 said:


> > the terminal scares the bejeezus out of
> 
> 
> ...... me to Synergy!
> ...



The Purge command is is not in OSX but is apparently an Apple proprietary addition to Xcode. However, as its available to all Mac users, there's no reason they couldn't install the CHUD.pkg and PLAY couldn't have a PURGE button.

Well, you know how I felt, but I went into the terminal and survived. And its truly as simple as I said in the instructions I posted. Follow what I said to the letter and you'll be done in less than five minutes.

As for getting the button on my desktop, I'll have to ask my brother what he did. He wrote some code but it took him literally less than 15 seconds to write it.

Its just a text file titled "purge.command" that says:

#!/bin/bash
/usr/bin/purge


When I click on it, it opens the terminal, runs purge, and I just manually quit the terminal.

Really, there's nothing to be afraid of if you don't stray from the instructions. Really it couldn't be simpler.


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## Dick the Flick (Nov 4, 2010)

gosh ....... how kind ....... I will sir !


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## NYC Composer (Nov 4, 2010)

Ultimately, this seems to be a positive and helpful thread for HS; for the developers, the users, _and_ the potential users.

I'm just sayin'.


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## tripit (Nov 4, 2010)

Also, for those of you not willing to go near the terminal, there is an app called atMonitor that gives you both ram readings and a purge function in the finder bar if you have xcode installed.


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## Jack Weaver (Nov 4, 2010)

FYI

Just moved my external hardware RAID SSD enclosure from my main machine (Mac Pro 8-core 3.2GHz - 2008 model) over to a Mac Pro 8-core 2.66 GHz -2009 model) RUNNING VISTA 64 in Bootcamp. Oh yeah, I'm using VE Pro as the host for it on the slave. 

*HS is re-born! *

Load times are several times faster. Playback is much, much better. Haven't benchmarked anything yet - but it doesn't matter because it's day and night. I can actually start to use this product the way I originally envisioned it before I purchased it. What a long, expensive, mind-bending and circuitous path this has been. 

The Mac OS was slowing down the SSD RAID. Play is still kludgey on Mac. Using Play inside of Logic is frustrating, having to use the 32-bit player - it crashes in 64-bit mode and is limited in 32-bit mode. PC Slave is the way to go for this. Getting the bulk of HS off the master machine is a great time saver when re-booting or changing songs. 

.


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## IFM (Nov 5, 2010)

Interesting Jack. Play clearly is okay but crippled on the Mac. I don't have these issues with K4 and I see others mention that their SSD and K4 is lightening fast. I don't have to extra funds now to buy a PC and I've given up trying to load a sizable template in VEPro server on the mac as it crashes all the time, either when saving the Metaframe or as VEPro gets over 2.3gig of ram. I'll just have to use small templates.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 5, 2010)

Dragonwind @ Fri Nov 05 said:


> I've given up trying to load a sizable template in VEPro server on the mac as it crashes all the time, either when saving the Metaframe or as VEPro gets over 2.3gig of ram. I'll just have to use small templates.



Are you talking about real memory or virtual memory? I have 5 instances of the VE Pro server, each one loaded with an HS legato, KS, and Mod Shorts (Vln 1, Vln2, Vla, VLC, DB) and it is fine. Activity Monitor shows VE Pro as using 1.52 real memory and 3.24 GB virtual memory.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 5, 2010)

Dragonwind @ Fri Nov 05 said:


> Thanks for that list of articulations though!



Well, due to the limitations of my present system and the limitations of my wallet, this is sort of a "best of HS" that I can use in tandem with KH's Concert Strings II, sometimes LASS, sometimes Sonivox strings, to get that great lush sound that is unique to HS. The possibilities of the various combinations are staggering.


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## IFM (Nov 5, 2010)

I'm kind of in the same boat. I don't have the extra funds to build a monster slave so I have to work with running as much in my Mac Pro as I can. The only thing I'll add to your list is Pizz, at least on the basses and celli.
Chris


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## Ashermusic (Nov 5, 2010)

Dragonwind @ Fri Nov 05 said:


> I'm kind of in the same boat. I don't have the extra funds to build a monster slave so I have to work with running as much in my Mac Pro as I can. The only thing I'll add to your list is Pizz, at least on the basses and celli.
> Chris



Good idea. I think I will give that a try as well.

OK, I did so and opened the Kirk Hunter Concert Strings II in the 64 bit server and Activity Monitor shows 1.65 GB real memory (this number actually started going down as the K4 stuff loaded) and 3.55 GB virtual memory.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 5, 2010)

I never post anything but here is a quick 8 bar example of legatos of Hollywood Strings mixed with Kirk Hunter's Concert Strings II. I used Todd AO ER in Space Designer and a UAD EMT Plate 140 with a UAD Precision EQ and Neve 33609 Buss Compressor on the 2 buss. 

IMHO it w worth the fuss and bother of HS because I can get this kind of sound.

http://soundcloud.com/jay-asher/hs-kh-csii-legatos


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## Jack Weaver (Nov 5, 2010)

Just to clear some things up. My situation on the Mac seemed to be a perfect storm of several things:

*There was no one single culprit. Mac OS, Play and Logic all contributed to the malaise. *

1. Mac OS didn't seem to allow proper throughput of my RAID card/SSD enclosure - even though they were claimed to be Mac-specific. (Proven by the fact that simply moving the same hardware over to yet another Mac Pro - but it running Vista64.) Note: I have another individual (nonRAIDed) SSD running my Mac OS. It seems to perform as advertised. It was only my external RAID that was under performing. 

2. HS load times were extremely slow. I would lay this up to (mostly) Play/Mac.

3. I suffered more pops & clicks during playback than I would have thought with an hardware SSD RAID. I couldn't really prove whether this was an SSD issue or Play or a combination of the two.

4. Performance of Play/HS were similar whether within VE Pro on the desktop of the master machine or as a plugin within Logic.

5. Logic's 32-bit bridge is unstable (Play is not 64-bit yet on Mac) so Play itself was a bit unstable. 


Nonetheless, now with the external SSD hardware RAID installed on the slave Mac Pro running Vista64 all is well. All these problems have been circumvented. 

.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 6, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Fri Nov 05 said:


> I never post anything but here is a quick 8 bar example of legatos of Hollywood Strings mixed with Kirk Hunter's Concert Strings II. I used Todd AO ER in Space Designer and a UAD EMT Plate 140 with a UAD Precision EQ and Neve 33609 Buss Compressor on the 2 buss.
> 
> IMHO it w worth the fuss and bother of HS because I can get this kind of sound.
> 
> http://soundcloud.com/jay-asher/hs-kh-csii-legatos



So I FIN ALLY post something and no one comments, not even negatively? 

Are you all afraid of my wrath? :twisted:


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## tripit (Nov 6, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sat Nov 06 said:


> Ashermusic @ Fri Nov 05 said:
> 
> 
> > I never post anything but here is a quick 8 bar example of legatos of Hollywood Strings mixed with Kirk Hunter's Concert Strings II. I used Todd AO ER in Space Designer and a UAD EMT Plate 140 with a UAD Precision EQ and Neve 33609 Buss Compressor on the 2 buss.
> ...



I would post something if only I could get soundcloud to play on my rig.


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## José Herring (Nov 6, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sat Nov 06 said:


> Ashermusic @ Fri Nov 05 said:
> 
> 
> > I never post anything but here is a quick 8 bar example of legatos of Hollywood Strings mixed with Kirk Hunter's Concert Strings II. I used Todd AO ER in Space Designer and a UAD EMT Plate 140 with a UAD Precision EQ and Neve 33609 Buss Compressor on the 2 buss.
> ...



I just heard it and liked it. Just to offer a bit of a suggestion though (one that you can take or leave) when you have that dense harmony down low you sometimes dynamically have to set it apart from the lead line or the ear kind of gets draw to the thick underlying harmonic lines and away from the lead line.

I like the harmonies a lot. Pretty advanced counterpoint. You should post more.

Jose


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## Ashermusic (Nov 6, 2010)

josejherring @ Sat Nov 06 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sat Nov 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Ashermusic @ Fri Nov 05 said:
> ...



I did this in a half hour just to showcase the sound of the two libraries mixed but you are surely correct that if I were doing this for real, I would need to do that and some automating to give it more life.

Thanks for the kind words about the writing. It was improvised on the fly but I was taught to do this kind of writing as a young man and so it is almost reflexive for me.
I would love to get hire for a score that actually called for it


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## IFM (Nov 8, 2010)

I am at my wits end with HS. I'm not building a PC just to use it any time soon so I've been trying to load a basic template of:
Slur + Leg LT 6
NV NV VB VB RR
MOD SPEED
Pizz
Trem
Trill

I do this for each section. I couldn't get that to load with VEPro as it would crash once I got to the basses. In stand alone, it will all load, but I cannot save the entire setup as Play crashed on the save. The other problem is Play only will output sound to the first two outputs of my Steinberg MR816CSX. Play registers all 16 outputs, but only works on 1-2. Jay's template works and I was able to load and use that in VEPro I just wanted to get away from keyswitches. 

As for my system I have 16gigs of ram, 2.66 dual Xeon, 10.6.4.


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## Gerd Kaeding (Nov 9, 2010)

Dragonwind @ Mon Nov 08 said:


> I am at my wits end with HS. I'm not building a PC just to use it any time soon so I've been trying to load a basic template of:
> Slur + Leg LT 6
> NV NV VB VB RR
> MOD SPEED
> ...



Hi Chris , 
I haven't read all your posts ,
but for the case that you use HS on Mac :

after loading a HS setup you'll have to "Repair Diskpermission" to free RAM again.
After this procedure you can save this PLAY Instance ,
because now the System has enough Free RAM available again to be able to operate this task.

Best ,

Gerd


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## germancomponist (Nov 9, 2010)

Last night I had a dream....:





Yeah, the good old days. :mrgreen: o/~


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## IFM (Nov 9, 2010)

Gerd Kaeding @ Tue Nov 09 said:


> Hi Chris ,
> I haven't read all your posts ,
> but for the case that you use HS on Mac :
> 
> ...



It worked! Well at least with VEPro server so far...havent tried the standalone route with the repaired permissions. I had the purge function going but that didn't work before, but this time I loaded the template into VEPro server, repaired permissions, then I was successful in saving the Meta Frame at last! I then quit everything, loaded Logic, VEPro server, loaded the meta frame, created a project, added 5 VIs of the VEPro connection, enabled all five tracks, recorded some short notes, and played back with no glitches! 

Now on to the next experiment to see if I can make a change to the template and re-save it.

Chris


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## Gerd Kaeding (Nov 9, 2010)

Dragonwind @ Tue Nov 09 said:


> It worked! Well at least with VEPro server so far...havent tried the standalone route with the repaired permissions. I had the purge function going but that didn't work before, but this time I loaded the template into VEPro server, repaired permissions, then I was successful in saving the Meta Frame at last! I then quit everything, loaded Logic, VEPro server, loaded the meta frame, created a project, added 5 VIs of the VEPro connection, enabled all five tracks, recorded some short notes, and played back with no glitches!
> 
> Now on to the next experiment to see if I can make a change to the template and re-save it.
> 
> Chris



Chris , whenever you'll add now a new big PLAY Instrument / Mic Position ( especially HS ) to your existing patches you will run into this trap. You'll have to repeat the "DiskPermission" procedure after loading new big patch Instruments/Mic Positions/Setups before you can save this set properly . No matter if PLAY is hosted in VEPRO or operates in standalone mode .

This is why I figured out a permanent setup of HS Instruments , that work on my current setup . I will always load this PLAY setup first , then load everything else ( Kontakt/VSL/ etc. ... ) .


Best

Gerd


P.S.:
Maybe you haven't read my old thread from August in Soundsonline's Support Section which deals with loading / unloading Samples in PLAY , focusing on the big HS patches  ( http://soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?t=30345&highlight=Inactive+Ram (http://soundsonline-forums.com/showthre ... active+Ram) ) .
I've opened the same thread over here ( http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... highlight= ).


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## IFM (Nov 9, 2010)

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind and thanks for the links, I hadn't seen those. I was hoping the RAM purge would do the same thing but it doesn't. This is quite the huge PITA but at least once you have the basic setup established then you don't have to do it again.

Thanks
Chris


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## Animus (Nov 9, 2010)

germancomponist @ Tue Nov 09 said:


> Last night I had a dream....:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I had a nightmare....I am in hell and eternally loading up HS on a Emu Ultra with floppy/zip drives.


:shock:


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## JFB (Nov 9, 2010)

Animus @ Tue Nov 09 said:


> germancomponist @ Tue Nov 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Last night I had a dream....:
> ...



And then you woke up...still in hell...eternally loading HS. :twisted:


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## germancomponist (Nov 10, 2010)

Animus @ Wed Nov 10 said:


> germancomponist @ Tue Nov 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Last night I had a dream....:
> ...



I am sure, if the hardware had been developed, we could buy today sampler with 32Gig RAM and more and with all the funktions/scripting that software samplers have today. o-[][]-o


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## stevenson-again (Nov 10, 2010)

*INTERESTINGLY*

it is actually possible to load up the individual PLAY instances within 1 instance of PLAY. so you only need 1 single PLAY instance and you can actually assign each articualtion its own midi port AND channel.

i didn't know you could do that. the problem is it is very inflexible if you want to add or change patches. not an easy system to manage - but i didn't know that PLAY could do that. i am going to have a little experiment for 1/2 an hour and see what happens.

i am still going to have problems with midi being passed through to the outside world, but if i can get just 1 instance to handle the whole library it might be possible to load up 1 instance within plogue this way. i could then route the midi from logic to individual bidule ports instead of IAC. convoluted as hell but it might work.


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## stevenson-again (Nov 10, 2010)

ah but of course you can't control the volume of the whole section (including all its articulations) seperately.

the main problem is that some of the samples just aren't streaming from the SSD drive. i loaded up the patches s they were saved, and the notes cut out after about 2 secs. i am starting a piece with Bb's in the violins 1+2 and violas, a long note in and the note cuts out on all of them at the same time. i get the next note when it turns up.

i'll bet if i reload the patches individually it'll work. i am trying to repair disk permissions first though.


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