# Tai Chi vs Valhalla Reverbs?



## Vhrka (Dec 14, 2021)

Hey everybody, 

I’m tempted by the current price on Tai Chi but was wondering if it’s worth going for Tai Chi if I already have all of the Valhalla plugins? Is there a big difference in quality or utility? 

On another note, I’m definitely going to be getting Blackhole at the current price it’s at so if I’m getting Blackhole, is there still a need for Tai Chi?


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## Trash Panda (Dec 14, 2021)

Try the demo. It's a wonderful reverb, but only you can determine if it's better for you than others.


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## Zanshin (Dec 14, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Try the demo. It's a wonderful reverb, but only you can determine if it's better for you than others.


We should sticky something like this. It's fantastic we can demo these before buying. For me I have them all lol.


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## Vhrka (Dec 14, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Try the demo. It's a wonderful reverb, but only you can determine if it's better for you than others.


I agree! Unfortunately I’m waiting on my new computer to arrive and right now it won’t be delivered until at least the 23rd and the Tai Chi offer ends on on the 20th :(


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## Trash Panda (Dec 14, 2021)

Vhrka said:


> I agree! Unfortunately I’m waiting on my new computer to arrive and right now it won’t be delivered until at least the 23rd and the Tai Chi offer ends on on the 20th :(


Well then the answer depends on the use case for the reverb. Are you trying to add a room to dry samples, make a smaller room sound bigger, match dry samples to a wetter library, add a tail to existing room sound?

Every reverb is better suited to different goals.


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## Consona (Dec 14, 2021)

Vhrka said:


> I already have all of the Valhalla plugins


Bruuuh...


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## fakemaxwell (Dec 14, 2021)

Vhrka said:


> I already have all of the Valhalla plugins?


If I had all of the Valhalla plugins, I would simply use all of the Valhalla plugins.


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## Vhrka (Dec 14, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Well then the answer depends on the use case for the reverb. Are you trying to add a room to dry samples, make a smaller room sound bigger, match dry samples to a wetter library, add a tail to existing room sound?
> 
> Every reverb is better suited to different goals.


Well I’m kinda looking for a more sound design oriented reverb, making big soundscapes/drones, unique textures & the like (hence me knowing I’m definitely getting Blackhole). But for an all around reverb I’m not sure Blackhole fits the bill. 

And I’m trying to expand my reverb knowledge, getting practice with new plugins, see what else is out there in terms of different characters & types of reverbs. 

However if Tai Chi is not too much different than Valhalla Room/Plate maybe it’s not worth it for me to get right now & I’ll use that $100 to get Crystallizer even though I missed the BF sale


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## Vhrka (Dec 14, 2021)

fakemaxwell said:


> If I had all of the Valhalla plugins, I would simply use all of the Valhalla plugins.


I do use them and I’m quite confident with them. I just want to try something new. I missed out on most of the Black Friday sales except for R4/Nimbus which I probably won’t even use since they’re not being updated for Apple Silicon :(


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## Trash Panda (Dec 14, 2021)

Vhrka said:


> Well I’m kinda looking for a more sound design oriented reverb, making big soundscapes/drones, unique textures & the like (hence me knowing I’m definitely getting Blackhole). But for an all around reverb I’m not sure Blackhole fits the bill.
> 
> And I’m trying to expand my reverb knowledge, getting practice with new plugins, see what else is out there in terms of different characters & types of reverbs.
> 
> However if Tai Chi is not too much different than Valhalla Room/Plate maybe it’s not worth it for me to get right now & I’ll use that $100 to get Crystallizer even though I missed the BF sale


To me, the Valhalla reverbs always have this grating, metallic artifact sound that my ears are sensitive to that I really can’t stand. I’ve heard others make good sounds with them, but it’s never worked out for me, which is a pity because I like the developer’s business model and want to like his plugins. For instance, love Blackhole, but didn’t get along with Supermassive at all. 

Anything out of LiquidSonics/Reverb Foundry by comparison is just smooth and hard to make sound bad. Tai Chi is crazy versatile from creating rooms to sound design. I’m a big fan of it and HD Cart and most of LiquidSonics’ lineup.


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## Symfoniq (Dec 14, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> To me, the Valhalla reverbs always have this grating, metallic artifact sound that my ears are sensitive to that I really can’t stand. I’ve heard others make good sounds with them, but it’s never worked out for me, which is a pity because I like the developer’s business model and want to like his plugins. For instance, love Blackhole, but didn’t get along with Supermassive at all.
> 
> Anything out of LiquidSonics/Reverb Foundry by comparison is just smooth and hard to make sound bad. Tai Chi is crazy versatile from creating rooms to sound design. I’m a big fan of it and HD Cart and most of LiquidSonics’ lineup.


I know exactly what you are talking about and can’t unhear it. The only thing I like about Valhalla verbs is the price. LiquidSonics all the way.


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## kgdrum (Dec 14, 2021)

Both are great developers with amazing products and I have several Valhalla reverbs and everything from Liquidsonics and Reverb Foundry but if I’m choosing between the two now I’d definitely go Liquidsonics. FWIW I and quite a few people have suggested to Matt that he develop a Digital Delay product, in his hands with his mad skills I think he’d have another WINNER! Tai Chi and HD Cart are both awesome but they are very different than Blackhole which is excellent! With that being said if you’re looking for a “spacey creative “ reverb I’d also suggest you might want to look at Adaptaverb by Zynaptiq,it’s pretty amazing but a bit pricey. Wait for a $99 sale which happens at least a few times a year,it’s unique and totally awesome! 👍
As far as pricing goes,with Liquidsonics generous loyalty coupons once you have a few the prices start to very inexpensive and when you have the lot they become ridiculously priced. I recently bought HD Cart for $23 and Tai Chi for $18 😊
Valhalla is a great developer,I’m getting the VDelay in the next week or two but I rarely use the reverbs. VVV is probably my favorite of the verbs that they offer but I prefer and use Liquidsonics and Reverb Foundry way more often.


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## Pier (Dec 14, 2021)

I don't own Tai Chi, but from the demos on their page I'd say R4 or Nimbus sound better. I found it sounds very artificial.

R4 and Nimbus are on sale for $8.50 at JRR but apparently they don't work too well on Macs or there's some issue with M1 or something...


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## Dr.Quest (Dec 14, 2021)

Pier said:


> R4 and Nimbus are on sale for $8.50 at JRR but apparently they don't work too well on Macs or there's some issue with M1 or something...


I have R4 on Mac High Sierra and it works and sounds great. Don't have Nimbus.


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## kgdrum (Dec 14, 2021)

Pier said:


> I don't own Tai Chi, but from the demos on their page I'd say R4 or Nimbus sound better. I found it sounds very artificial.
> 
> R4 and Nimbus are on sale for $8.50 at JRR but apparently they don't work too well on Macs or there's some issue with M1 or something...


We’ll if the OP already has Valhalla verbs is considering Blackhole I’m not sure he’s necessarily looking for a natural sounding verb
I have great natural sounding reverbs that I love as use for that kind of purpose and I have reverbs that are all about color,effects more creative endeavors.
So in my opinion whether a verb sounds more realistic might not what the OP is looking for he might be looking for a coloring effect.


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## Pier (Dec 14, 2021)

Dr.Quest said:


> I have R4 on Mac High Sierra and it works and sounds great. Don't have Nimbus.


My memory fails me but I think the issue is that Izotope won't make them ARM compatible?

I think it was @jcrosby who was mentioning this in another thread.


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## Pier (Dec 14, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> We’ll if the OP already has Valhalla verbs is considering Blackhole I’m not sure he’s necessarily looking for a natural sounding verb
> I have great natural sounding reverbs that I love as use for that kind of purpose and I have reverbs that are all about color,effects more creative endeavors.
> So in my opinion whether a verb sounds more realistic might not what the OP is looking for he might be looking for a coloring effect.


Good point and you're absolutely right.

What I meant with artificial, is rather that I don't find it convincing (regardless of whether it is realistic or not). Blackhole sounds artificial too, but I do like it.

Ah sorry it's late here and my words brain is failing me 😂


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## kgdrum (Dec 14, 2021)

Pier said:


> Good point and you're absolutely right.
> 
> What I meant with artificial, is rather that I don't find it convincing (regardless of whether it is realistic or not). Blackhole sounds artificial too, but I do like it.
> 
> Ah sorry it's late here and my words brain is failing me 😂




Late? Aren’t you in Mexico? Damn I’m in NYC it’s almost 1:00 AM & I consider this early evening! lol 

Back to reverbs: HD Cart is a deliciously rich colorful reverb that I think brings something different to the table than the Valhalla reverbs,Adaptaverb is another great creative effect reverb that will never get mistaken for reality but it sounds great,I love different reverbs for different reasons and uses.
Honestly I bought Tai Chi without really checking it out at all, I haven’t even had time to install it. Either way I love Matt’s products and trust he only releases products that do something a bit differently than his other releases and for $18 I’m confident I’ll find something useful with it. 😊


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## jcrosby (Dec 14, 2021)

Pier said:


> My memory fails me but I think the issue is that Izotope won't make them ARM compatible?
> 
> I think it was @jcrosby who was mentioning this in another thread.


I did mention it, but that was actually because someone else had linked a very hard to find list where Izotope listed it as essentially EOL. (At least the list suggests as much...)



https://support.izotope.com/hc/en-us/articles/4407777831699-iZotope-Compatibility-with-Apple-silicon



You'll see there's a bunch of other stuff in addition to Exponential Audio, some that have been updated to new versions (RX), others with no current replacement in sight including Iris 2, Trash 2. (Trash 2 really bothers me. That's been a personal staple for forever...)

I've been a big supporter of Izotope over the years but to be perfectly blunt, I don't like the direction they've been going in over the past couple years. The subscription really iced the cake by essentially witholding the same updates subscribers get from perpetual license. It's all very grey 

Sorry for the rant... Given that they're aggressively running sales on these plugins I just think people should be aware... Not an actual FAQ link about them anywhere in the Exponential Audio support section, (I was only able to find it via a web search). It all strikes me as quite a bit dodgy...


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## Russell Anderson (Dec 16, 2021)

If you wanna get really weird, get MTurboReverb. Best weird reverb out there.

From the limited time I've spent with it Tai Chi seems to be about vintage. You can get weird in the sense of bit rate/sample rate/chorusing when you take them to the extremes, otherwise it's just a lot of parameters for dialing in a nice sound that fits well and positions well, so I wouldn't say "sound design" as much as "flexible and great vintage"... Sounds good, really good, but if you want to get _weird..._ MTurboReverb, man, trust me.


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## dnblankedelman (Dec 16, 2021)

Vhrka said:


> Well I’m kinda looking for a more sound design oriented reverb, making big soundscapes/drones, unique textures & the like


You night also dig Adaptiverb by znaptiq for this purpose.


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## Russell Anderson (Dec 16, 2021)

Or you may even just want to learn about granular and resonators and additive synthesis and complex filters, too. Because for the most part a reverb is a reverb. You have shimmer reverbs, modulated reverbs like Lexicons/R4 and Tai Chi and Sonsig, Blackhole(deeper)/Supermassive(wider) for deep and huge reverbs that you can modulate, Adaptiverb lets you play long tails without the mud that results from changing chords or keys due to it being a synthesized tail (that’s its coolest trick), and you have MTurboReverb letting you chain up and modulate parallel/series/networks of feedback loops of comb filters and delays/all pass diffusers and pitch shifters and the like. 

Of the more sound-design-y reverbs, these would be my picks with honorable mentions for Xenoverb, BlueCat Late Replies, Timeless and UVI Relayer.

But if you’re basically looking for cool pads, it’s more than reverb. I’d really look at the generator side, because then you can slap pretty much any reverb on it and fall in love.


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## AnhrithmonGelasma (Dec 17, 2021)

May also want to try B2 for sound design + fantastic sounding reverb: "capable of both mind-bending creative effects that defy classification as well as stunningly lush reverbs. Its modular design enables an almost infinite variety of sonic possibilities." 
Or Unfiltered Audio Byome/Triad or Silo....


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## AnhrithmonGelasma (Dec 17, 2021)

Russell Anderson said:


> Adaptiverb lets you play long tails without the mud that results from changing chords or keys due to it being a synthesized tail (that’s its coolest trick),


Adaptiverb can be very good for drones:

 

Not sure if these were created using preexisting drones or what....


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## Russell Anderson (Dec 17, 2021)

AnhrithmonGelasma said:


> May also want to try B2 for sound design + fantastic sounding reverb: "capable of both mind-bending creative effects that defy classification as well as stunningly lush reverbs. Its modular design enables an almost infinite variety of sonic possibilities."
> Or Unfiltered Audio Byome/Triad or Silo....


B2 is fantastic sounding, and one I'd like to take a little more time with... But if I ever want to buy it I need to sell two other reverbs, first lol

The adaptiverb presets do come with samples, one per preset. There's no question reverb and other things of the sustain-y nature are an important part of pads, but the source is the more responsible part of the sound. Adaptiverb may be better about letting some sounds shine because of the lack of frequency clashing, I forget what else it can do since it's been a year and the demo is long expired.


(also don't buy The Mangle, you won't receive it after payment, it's a dead plugin)


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## AnhrithmonGelasma (Dec 18, 2021)

Russell Anderson said:


> B2 is fantastic sounding, and one I'd like to take a little more time with... But if I ever want to buy it I need to sell two other reverbs, first lol
> 
> The adaptiverb presets do come with samples, one per preset. There's no question reverb and other things of the sustain-y nature are an important part of pads, but the source is the more responsible part of the sound. Adaptiverb may be better about letting some sounds shine because of the lack of frequency clashing, I forget what else it can do since it's been a year and the demo is long expired.
> 
> ...



B2 is on sale for $100 until January 15th. Imagination expansion (more sound design presets) is an extra $25 I think.

Adaptiverb detects the pitched content of the input signal and can then apply positive or negative harmonic filtering, in addition to replacing the reverb source with a synth (there's a source - synth slider). Simplify simplifies / reduces the amount of pitched content detected and can create interesting effects. Most of the sound design oriented presets seem to use the option to freeze the harmonic filtering from one source to apply it to different sources. But the main benefit is the ability to add a lot of reverb without muddying up the mix.


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## el-bo (Dec 18, 2021)

Russell Anderson said:


> B2 is fantastic sounding, and one I'd like to take a little more time with...


B2 is a beast. Capable of huge sound-designy stuff. Bit difficult to get one's head around and could do with some UX revision and a facelift (can't be too long, now), and can eat up CPU. Bbut it just sounds so good 



Russell Anderson said:


> [...]don't buy The Mangle, you won't receive it after payment, *it's a dead plugin*)


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## Russell Anderson (Dec 18, 2021)

AnhrithmonGelasma said:


> Most of the sound design oriented presets seem to use the option to freeze the harmonic filtering from one source to apply it to different sources.


I should request a reset of my demo, that sounds cool. I do that “harmonic filtering” using Harmor filters by snapshotting resynthesized samples with it, but Harmor is obviously not a reverb (still sounds like an awesome filter sometimes)

B2 I’ve actually admired and enjoyed for almost a year with the demo. It can be super, super lush. That facelift will be well-received, too. I’m about to go get Precedence, but as far as fancy reverbs goes… I’ve simply got to offload some reverbs before taking on anymore lol. I don’t have the bandwidth to understand as fully as I’d like even what I own atm; B2 from my current understanding would most realistically offer a nice damping curve and another pretty flavor for long tails, but for everything else else I feel totally covered by MTurboReverb, CRP+7HP, Blackhole and the other _8_ high quality reverbs I somehow also own from Relab/IRCAM/Exponential Audio/Reverb Foundry…


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## Russell Anderson (Dec 19, 2021)

labs piano>
eq/compression>
adaptiverb with HCF on keyboard mode, ray tracing mode, ...you can see the settings lol>
mturboreverb ER modules (direct + diffuser, then input+output both into "ringer" module for more comb filtering) with "modulation" slider active + modulation of various length + deformity parameters for more comb filtering>
blackhole>
m/s eq

there are some annoying resonances that can be ironed out with a bit of time but this is a pretty fun recipe that I did not spend terribly long on, lots of fun stuff you can do with interacting comb filters and diffusion/reverb. You might be able to do the same with a lot of flangers/chorus etc or straight up MComb and stuff like that. Also Adaptiverb is pretty cool it turns out

edit: threw on spectraldynamics before blackhole set to ruthlessly flatten the spectrum to help with the resonances, but you get it


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## vitocorleone123 (Dec 19, 2021)

As a whole, I don't usually prefer Valhalla reverbs (but I LOVE LOVE LOVE the Delay). As has been said, they have more artifacts to my ears or build up the low-mids too much. Supermassive I do enjoy. I look forward to any NEW reverb Sean may build as I'd immediately try it out. In case your ears are like mine, I also don't like B2 reverbs or Pro-R, etc. R4 was the first reverb that I immediately liked.

Different reverbs have different goals and design philosophies. Tai Chi isn't intended to be realistic, though you can push it there within a narrower window than something designed to mimic real spaces. A lot of people are going to push it to see how experimental it'll get as opposed to how realistic it can sound and then post those demos online. D16 Toraverb2 is also, still, quite good for unrealistic spaces. Tai Chi, to me, is more for when you want someone to know you're using a reverb, though it can be subtly blended, too, if desired. To me, it's best used in that gap between realism and heavily effected reverb like a shimmer. There's better tools to either side of it, but it hits the sweet spot in the middle just about perfectly.

R4 and Nimbus sound great and had been my primary reverbs of choice for awhile, but, as indicated, aren't supported - which means nothing for some people and something for some people who have/had issues with them (like me). They were replaceable, though, to my ears, with TaiChi instead of R4*, and Cinematic Rooms Pro instead of Nimbus. Big price difference, though. Then again, I paid quite a bit more than $20 for R4+Nimbus.

* I also have LX480 Essentials if I want more the Lexicon sound - a lot easier to use than R4, more "authentic" Lexicon sounding, and also not expensive on sale.


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## Russell Anderson (Dec 19, 2021)

I would agree Tai Chi, Lex (kind of obviously) and R4 are spiritually related. Sonsig even to a degree but in a weirder way, same story with VVV. OP might benefit from knowing Tai Chi is sort of like VVV with more granular control over sample rate/early reflections/chorusing and band-decay. If you wanna get even weirder than that, …

Adaptiverb really is pretty awesome, and I will shill for MTurboReverb until at least 2028.


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## zvenx (Dec 19, 2021)

Well you did ask for opinions so I am going to give mine..

Until a few months ago, I thought only Exponential Audio and Relab Development's Reverbs floated my boat...I used nothing both Reverbs from those two (though I own a lot more including one of the Valhalla Reverbs), even fully well knowing Michael Carnes from EA had retired and most likely there would be no more substantive updates if any at all to his work :(. I thought I had tried all or most of the competitors. Then I watched Trevor Morris's Template Youtube tutorial and I got curious about this Cinematic Rooms Professional he was using, demoed it and I fell in love. Put it at the top of my Black Friday to buy list since that is the only time of the year it goes on sale.

I had seen Tai Chi mention on Gearspace but didn't pay much attention to it until after a few days with Cinematic Rooms Pro bought the day it went on sale, to find out it was the same developers....downloaded demo'ed and bought....These two have replaced R4 and Nimbus as my go to Reverbs in several of my templates. (I have different templates for different types of projects)..

Not to mention LiquidSonics/ReverbFoundry offer great discounts the more of their products you buy.

I say buy it, don't even think further about it.


rsp


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## el-bo (Dec 19, 2021)

Russell Anderson said:


> labs piano>
> eq/compression>
> adaptiverb with HCF on keyboard mode, ray tracing mode, ...you can see the settings lol>
> mturboreverb ER modules (direct + diffuser, then input+output both into "ringer" module for more comb filtering) with "modulation" slider active + modulation of various length + deformity parameters for more comb filtering>
> ...


Interesting! Love all the movement. The resonance, less-so. But it's an interesting combo, no doubt...and adds to my regret of having to sell Adaptiverb :(


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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 19, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> To me, the Valhalla reverbs always have this grating, metallic artifact sound that my ears are sensitive to that I really can’t stand.


Glad it’s not just me, I tried the demos and always heard this “buzz” in the tails. Not a fan.


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 20, 2021)

Sadly for Mac users, I think the best realistic reverb is by Exponential Audio. Stratus and Stratus 3D are truly wonderful. Of course, I haven't tried everything else. Also, good impulse responses in any capable convolution reverb will be better for realism than most available algorithmic reverbs.

For creative effects, though, Zynaptiq's Adaptiverb and Wormhole are great. I'm sure it's just me, but I can't get much of anything out of Blackhole.

There are still sales on Eventide's range. https://www.audiodeluxe.com/products/audio-plugins/eventide-rotary-mod

UVI's Relayer for delay and reverb is very useful. Sparkverb is worth a look too.

Flux IRCAM Verb V3 is a terrific mix of realism and creative effects. It may become my favourite all rounder over time.

Cinematic Rooms sounds nice easily. It may be possible to get realistic reverbs out of it, but I didn't succeed while I was demoing it. It's very much designed for music, with realism a distant aim compared to placement, clarity and sounding nice.

I don't care for most granular reverbs, I find them samey and unmusical. But tastes vary, and there are a few granular effects that stand out to me (Delta Sound Lab's Stream); but I would recommend looking into spectral delays and effects, such as Unfiltered Audio's Spec Ops.

For general sound designing by temporally extending sounds, INA-GRM have an excellent range. Space Grain (granular) only works on mono signals, so do be aware of that.


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 20, 2021)

And.. I didn't answer the OP's questions at all... Sorry. 

Tai Chi is very good for reverbs that sound like effects whilst creating a sense of atmosphere. I can't meaningfully compare it to the Valhalla reverbs, though.


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## Russell Anderson (Dec 20, 2021)

While we’re in reverb comparison land… I think CRP is probably most-geared toward realism. Isn’t it like _the_ foley reverb for post, not just because it’s surround but because it’s so good at spatialization? Just go through each ER module slowly one by one, I think it’s the best I’ve used. Tails-wise I think Nimbus/R4 are as good as anything out there, I am very fond of their tails. (The ERs are really useful, too, just a little closer to IRCAM-style… more on that in a sec) Luckily for mac users they can reluctantly shell out for Neoverb and a second CPU (  ) so long as they’re comfortable financially reinforcing Izotope’s delusion that what they’ve done with the EA reverbs is good enough. 

IRCAM Verb is almost if not CRP-level for spatialization but it is not… The workflow I think is convoluted. The way it’s laid out and how the parameters interact is annoying, like room size resetting other parameters (and doing basically nothing besides that and adjusting min/max limits for parameter settings), and the EQ area controlling overall gain per stage instead of having it by the graph and the enable/disable modules… and it has a tendency to comb filter (I think it was re-peat talking about how you have to be extremely careful with resonances in the source sound, and if you iron those out then it’s like the best reverb ever). I love it, it’s really good, but it is definitely touchy and weird.


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## Russell Anderson (Dec 20, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> INA-GRM


Evolution is still one of the coolest vocodery things IMO



el-bo said:


> Interesting! Love all the movement. The resonance, less-so. But it's an interesting combo, no doubt...and adds to my regret of having to sell Adaptiverb :(


Yeah, sorry about your ears. I left it pretty damn bright and it could still use more resonance taming, playing with comb filtering to get that sparkly sound is a pretty fine line, with some time it can sound pretty awesome but along the way sometimes the tubey slunkaeriuyoieruoaieru sound can get a little heavy-handed and there are _extreme_ volume fluctuations. After getting it safe for human ears, layering that in with some granular stuff (or doing it to it since this is all reverb/comb-filter based) starts to get pretty rad


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 20, 2021)

Russell Anderson said:


> While we’re in reverb comparison land… I think CRP is probably most-geared toward realism. Isn’t it like _the_ foley reverb for post, not just because it’s surround but because it’s so good at spatialization? Just go through each ER module slowly one by one, I think it’s the best I’ve used. Tails-wise I think Nimbus/R4 are as good as anything out there, I am very fond of their tails. (The ERs are really useful, too, just a little closer to IRCAM-style… more on that in a sec) Luckily for mac users they can reluctantly shell out for Neoverb and a second CPU (  ) so long as they’re comfortable financially reinforcing Izotope’s delusion that what they’ve done with the EA reverbs is good enough.
> 
> IRCAM Verb is almost if not CRP-level for spatialization but it is not… The workflow I think is convoluted. The way it’s laid out and how the parameters interact is annoying, like room size resetting other parameters (and doing basically nothing besides that and adjusting min/max limits for parameter settings), and the EQ area controlling overall gain per stage instead of having it by the graph and the enable/disable modules… and it has a tendency to comb filter (I think it was re-peat talking about how you have to be extremely careful with resonances in the source sound, and if you iron those out then it’s like the best reverb ever). I love it, it’s really good, but it is definitely touchy and weird.


Very good points about IRCAM Verb. I agree. 

My comments about Cinematic Rooms were misleading, sorry. For early reflections, it is good for realism. For tails, it is not good; it's tails are great for clarity in music as they are extremely good at staying out of the way. . Stratus is easily better for realism (in my, inept, experience). I'm not aware of Cinematic Rooms being used for foley. Could be, but I'd be surprised as it sounds too nice and musical and not much like any spaces most scenes are likely to take place in. Maybe during my trial I missed out on a whole range of unpleasant or uninteresting sounds that it is capable of! 

Stratus was one of the go-tos for foley, recorded dialogue and such; but it might not be anymore given the lack of continued development.


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## Russell Anderson (Dec 20, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> Very good points about IRCAM Verb. I agree.
> 
> My comments about Cinematic Rooms were misleading, sorry. For early reflections, it is good for realism. For tails, it is not good; it's tails are great for clarity in music as they are extremely good at staying out of the way. . Stratus is easily better for realism (in my, inept, experience). I'm not aware of Cinematic Rooms being used for foley. Could be, but I'd be surprised as it sounds too nice and musical and not much like any spaces most scenes are likely to take place in. Maybe during my trial I missed out on a whole range of unpleasant or uninteresting sounds that it is capable of!
> 
> Stratus was one of the go-tos for foley, recorded dialogue and such; but it might not be anymore given the lack of continued development.


I’ve seen Symphony (close enough, maybe it was music and Stratus was foley or something because you know, modulation is pretty) pop up on Alan Meyerson’s videos before, I’ve also seen Hans Zimmer mentioning RC basically used Cinematic Rooms for everything surround now (besides a couple of hardware boxes I think)


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 20, 2021)

Russell Anderson said:


> Evolution is still one of the coolest vocodery things IMO
> 
> 
> Yeah, sorry about your ears. I left it pretty damn bright and it could still use more resonance taming, playing with comb filtering to get that sparkly sound is a pretty fine line, with some time it can sound pretty awesome but along the way sometimes the tubey slunkaeriuyoieruoaieru sound can get a little heavy-handed and there are _extreme_ volume fluctuations. After getting it safe for human ears, layering that in with some granular stuff (or doing it to it since this is all reverb/comb-filter based) starts to get pretty rad


Note to self - always use a limiter. Always use a brickwall limiter when trying out suggestions by @Russell Anderson.


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## Russell Anderson (Dec 20, 2021)

I’ll do my part and smash the daylights out of it next time with spectraldynamics, promise!

I bought that plugin to do just that, I just forget, maybe I’m rusty now… these music-deprived 65 hour weeks are taking their toll on my competence. I love this kind of sound design, which also happens to be potentially super dangerous to play with lol (I always have a limiter active though), having something like MSD makes life so easy. If you know 

if you actually use it


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## tc9000 (Dec 20, 2021)

I just wanted to add more _fog_ (sorry) to the discussion by saying that Fog Convolver is 42 bucks at the moment.









Fog Convolver - Creative Convolution Reverb Plugin (VST, AU, AAX)


Fog Convolver is a convolution reverb plugin. Convolution works by applying the sonic character of an impulse response to another sound in real time.




www.audiothing.net


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 20, 2021)

tc9000 said:


> I just wanted to add more _fog_ (sorry) to the discussion by saying that Fog Convolver is 42 bucks at the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't have this, but I want it almost entirely because I love the name! 

But also because Audiothing rock every boat at sea.


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## Russell Anderson (Dec 20, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> Very good points about IRCAM Verb. I agree.


I want to state also that the blackhole-esque modulation slider at the bottom of IRCAM verb is the bees knees. It transitions as smoothly as one could ever want and lets you either change spaces or audition 2 rooms and then find a happy medium if somewhere in the middle is better. If only the rest of it were so user-friendly


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## Zanshin (Dec 20, 2021)

I found IRCAM Verb to have very small sweet spots and I could find better results faster with other reverbs. Has it been updated much since that sale where it was $99?


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## Russell Anderson (Dec 20, 2021)

Reportedly this plugin in particular is... it'll be a while, at least, is my understanding. I think it's just in its nature to be that way, though. UI-UX wise, that's something they could much more easily fix. Comb filtering-wise, I'm not even bothered by it sometimes and sometimes it does just sound amazing. Sometimes I even dial it in fast. Sometimes it never works no matter what (well this is probably that source-resonance-sensitivity thing), and that's what CRP doesn't seem to run into unless you're just after something more characterful. Also, crossfeed!

IRCAM verb is not new, either, it's like a 2015 plugin I think.


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 20, 2021)

Russell Anderson said:


> Reportedly this plugin in particular is... it'll be a while, at least, is my understanding. I think it's just in its nature to be that way, though. UI-UX wise, that's something they could much more easily fix. Comb filtering-wise, I'm not even bothered by it sometimes and sometimes it does just sound amazing. Sometimes I even dial it in fast. Sometimes it never works no matter what (well this is probably that source-resonance-sensitivity thing), and that's what CRP doesn't seem to run into unless you're just after something more characterful. Also, crossfeed!
> 
> IRCAM verb is not new, either, it's like a 2015 plugin I think.


Yes, a lot of the best sounding products are old and hard to use!


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## Zanshin (Dec 20, 2021)

“best sounding” in this particular case being highly subjective haha.


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 20, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> “best sounding” in this particular case being highly subjective haha.


Apparently that doesn't go without saying... One would have thought otherwise!


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## Russell Anderson (Dec 20, 2021)




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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 20, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> Sadly for Mac users, I think the best realistic reverb is by Exponential Audio.


I'm a Mac user, not a fan at all of the Exponential stuff....I have a few and they will never be called upon again (got them on sale for like $10 each). Just find them too sterile and synthetic sounding. Cinematic Rooms is by far one of the best I've ever used, and I'm sure it's a good foley verb as it's very "organic". CR, Seventh Heaven and Spaces II are pretty much all I use now.


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## Zanshin (Dec 20, 2021)

Russell Anderson said:


>



Goodhertz is one of my favorite devs, I'm pretty much an unapologetic fanboy. I own/love/use everyday tupe, vulf comp, faraday limiter, midside, panpot, tiltshift, good dither, canopener studio. 

And with that said, Megaverb just didn't do it for me.


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## Russell Anderson (Dec 20, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> Goodhertz is one of my favorite devs, I'm pretty much an unapologetic fanboy. I own/love/use everyday tupe, vulf comp, faraday limiter, midside, panpot, tiltshift, good dither, canopener studio.
> 
> And with that said, Megaverb just didn't do it for me.


I mostly linked it for the meme. Rest assured I am surrounded by Goodhertz fanboys and I might give canopener a try next to Realphones


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## Zanshin (Dec 20, 2021)

Well then, you are in good company @Russell Anderson!


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## vitocorleone123 (Dec 20, 2021)

Russell Anderson said:


> I mostly linked it for the meme. Rest assured I am surrounded by Goodhertz fanboys and I might give canopener a try next to Realphones


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## Pier (Dec 20, 2021)

tc9000 said:


> I just wanted to add more _fog_ (sorry) to the discussion by saying that Fog Convolver is 42 bucks at the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I bought it during BF. I really don't recommend it.

For opening IRs from the interwebz just get MConvolutionEZ for free which has a much better UI.

For $30 you can get MConvolutionMB which is really lightyears ahead of Fog and it can open all sorts of formats, not just .wav files.

Fog does open true stereo .wav IRs (2 x stereo wavs), but I spent a couple of hours looking for TS impulses of real spaces and found nothing that it could open since it can't open ambisonic files nor Waves .wir files.

For TS impulses of real locations, IR1 is just a better option. For $29 you have access to the full Waves IR library which includes a ton of TS IRs. The UI is seriously outdated but honestly it's not worse than the one from Fog.

The only positive thing I can say about Fog is that it comes with a number of experimental impulses.


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## kgdrum (Dec 20, 2021)

Fog Convolver is definitely aimed at more experimental/creative uses than a typical convolution based reverb and from my understanding it wasn’t designed to be a everyday generic reverb. Word is the next version will be released fairly soon so i am curious to see what the next version will bring to the table
Audiothing for me is one of the best developers for creative effects and I'm confident the next version will be pretty amazing! 👍


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## tc9000 (Dec 21, 2021)

One of my fave reverb presets is Fog Convolver with an IR of the Lexicon 960L HALLS 1_10_dc preset shared here:





Of course, its the IR that makes the sound but I keep coming back to this preset / combo.


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## re-peat (Dec 21, 2021)

I like Fog. Don’t use it for reverb of course. There’s loads of other stuff that you can do with impulse responses: hardware profiles, circuitry, amps, cabinets, radios, various devices, … and just … sound. Any sound. You can, for example, process a piano with a recording of, say, a traffic jam used as an impulse response. I really like that kind of thing.

_


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 21, 2021)

re-peat said:


> I like Fog. Don’t use it for reverb of course. There’s loads of other stuff that you can do with impulse responses: hardware profiles, circuitry, amps, cabinets, radios, various devices, … and just … sound. Any sound. You can, for example, process a piano with a recording of, say, a traffic jam used as an impulse response. I really like that kind of thing.
> 
> _


Yes, that sort of thing is great fun.


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## Otonal (Dec 21, 2021)

Pier said:


> I bought it during BF. I really don't recommend it.
> 
> For opening IRs from the interwebz just get MConvolutionEZ for free which has a much better UI.
> 
> ...


Also a licensed user of both Fog Convolver and MConvolutionMB — and in agreement — the latter has a far more advanced features set. 

Besides the obvious ability to load, combine, multiband split and individually EQ different IRs, it's the modulation features that distinguish it over the former, although it does appear that AT will be adding modulation in a future update, which should make it a bit more interesting.


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## Pier (Dec 21, 2021)

re-peat said:


> I like Fog. Don’t use it for reverb of course. There’s loads of other stuff that you can do with impulse responses: hardware profiles, circuitry, amps, cabinets, radios, various devices, … and just … sound. Any sound. You can, for example, process a piano with a recording of, say, a traffic jam used as an impulse response. I really like that kind of thing.
> 
> _


Well yeah but you can do that with any convolution plugin, no?


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## Pier (Dec 21, 2021)

tc9000 said:


> One of my fave reverb presets is Fog Convolver with an IR of the Lexicon 960L HALLS 1_10_dc preset shared here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks I will download those IRs!


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## re-peat (Dec 21, 2021)

Pier said:


> Well yeah but you can do that with any convolution plugin, no?



I guess so, Pier, but I happen to like Fog. It’s a simple, straightforward tool that does well what it says it will and has, I find, all the right parameters to do what I like to do with it. If I want more complex convolution-based processing, I’ll use Nebula-based software. And for convolution reverbs, I can choose among Altiverb, Aqua Silver, SpaceDesigner and Spaces. More than enough.

You’re right, in most respects, the Melda is probably superior to Fog, but I have no need for it.

But back to reverbs: one of my Black Friday purchases has been the TC VSS4 HD. My oh my, that’s the eel’s eyebrows, as they used to say in the Anglo-Saxon world.

_


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 21, 2021)

Pier said:


> Well yeah but you can do that with any convolution plugin, no?


But it's called 'Fog Convolver', so it's cool. Plus, the impulse responses are cool.

And also, as a separate and further consideration heretofore unmentioned, it's called 'Fog Convolver'. So it's cool.


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## sostenuto (Dec 21, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> But it's called 'Fog Convolver', so it's cool. Plus, the impulse responses are cool.
> 
> And also, as a separate and further consideration heretofore unmentioned, it's called 'Fog Convolver'. So it's cool.


Fog Convolver ? Saw that somewhere ... 🙈


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 21, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> Fog Convolver ? Saw that somewhere ... 🙈


You've got to stay away from those websites; they could give you the new, open-source plugin format. 

Ursggh!


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## sostenuto (Dec 21, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> You've got to stay away from those websites; they could give you the new, open-source plugin format.
> 
> Ursggh!


Valhalla DSP 's algo's convolve foggy enuff pour moi. 🌁 👻
(edit) !!! Wadda bout Melda MConvolutionMB now @ $30. Promo ??


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 21, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> Valhalla DSP 's algo's convolve foggy enuff pour moi. 🌁 👻
> (edit) !!! Wadda bout Melda MConvolutionMB now @ $30. Promo ??


Well, if you're going to ask serious questions....

MConvolutionMB sounds great. It has a good library of impulse responses and can load new ones in lots of formats. The settings can be refined in great detail.

I now use it for outdoor IRs, caverns and things like that. I use Waves IR-1 or IR-360 for IRs for concert halls.

Melda has a 50% off sitewide sale at the moment.


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 21, 2021)

Oh, I should add that I have extra IR libraries for outdoors, but MConvoultionMB does have some of its own - look in the folders as the simple setting options in the interface don't show everything.


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## sostenuto (Dec 21, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> Oh, I should add that I have extra IR libraries for outdoors, but MConvoultionMB does have some of its own - look in the folders as the simple setting options in the interface don't show everything.


THX Must admit poor organization of FX, and not so easy to sort algo and IR VST/VST3_ as
(31) appear in Reaper list. Few iffy, but most by solid sources. ☹️ MConvolutionMB will be solid add.
One interesting choice is Convology XT (Free now from Impulse Record.com). 
Convology XT Complete is $199.


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 21, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> THX Must admit poor organization of FX, and not so easy to sort algo and IR VST/VST3_ as
> (31) appear in Reaper list. Few iffy, but most by solid sources. ☹️ MConvolutionMB will be solid add.


Yes. I don't like suggesting people buy things, but I don't think you'd regret adding MConvoultionMB to your roster.


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## sostenuto (Dec 21, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> Yes. I don't like suggesting people buy things, but I don't think you'd regret adding MConvoultionMB to your roster.


Not sure if you caught my last edit.

One interesting choice is Convology XT (Free now from Impulse Record.com).
Convology XT Complete is $199. I like their 'Free' Convology XT ! 
If you get it ___ _note Lic # provided_, in order to get full DAW use.


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 21, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> Not sure if you caught my last edit.
> 
> One interesting choice is Convology XT (Free now from Impulse Record.com).
> Convology XT Complete is $199. I like their 'Free' Convology XT !
> If you get it ___ _note Lic # provided_, in order to get full DAW use.


Free is worth a try! I'll check it out. Thank you!


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## Russell Anderson (Dec 21, 2021)

Might be my ignorance, but unless a convolution plugin has unique features, it’s all the same convolution equation, is it not? I guess I just don’t know what some of these do. I’d have thought that for general IR stuff (i.e. not Transatlantic Plate or Nebula) you just grab Reverberate 3 and/or Melda and that’s the full shebang


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 21, 2021)

Russell Anderson said:


> Might be my ignorance, but unless a convolution plugin has unique features, it’s all the same convolution equation, is it not? I guess I just don’t know what some of these do. I’d have thought that for general IR stuff (i.e. not Transatlantic Plate or Nebula) you just grab Reverberate 3 and/or Melda and that’s the full shebang


Physics and computer programming are not my strong suits, so make of my comments what you will! I think there can be significant variation between convolution reverbs. 

There is a lot of room for adjusting parameters such as tone, length, predelay, frequency response, which frequencies are processed how, and so on. Some convolution reverbs only do stereo, and some use left and right samples and some do not, some can do ambisonic or surround sound up to various standards. So there are a lot of possible variations. The quality of the impulse responses and the application of these to the input sounds are the main things. But programming is required for the latter job. To a greater or lesser degree, the convolution reverb will be applying some form of algorithmic/programmed processing of sounds.


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## vitocorleone123 (Dec 22, 2021)

Russell Anderson said:


> Might be my ignorance, but unless a convolution plugin has unique features, it’s all the same convolution equation, is it not? I guess I just don’t know what some of these do. I’d have thought that for general IR stuff (i.e. not Transatlantic Plate or Nebula) you just grab Reverberate 3 and/or Melda and that’s the full shebang


Reverberate 3 is, for a general IR player, "one and done". I tried others, like Convology, and ended up uninstalling them, especially once I had Reverberate 3. 

I do have a couple of specialized IR plugins, like Seventh Heaven, Transatlantic Plate, and Micro Digital Reverberator.


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## Consona (Dec 23, 2021)

I've realized having Valhalla Room and Vintage Verb is all I need for basically any genre of music.


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 23, 2021)

Consona said:


> I've realized having Valhalla Room and Vintage Verb is all I need for basically any genre of music.


Does Valhalla Room handle the predelay and early reflections well?


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## Consona (Dec 23, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> Does Valhalla Room handle the predelay and early reflections well?


VRoom does not have distinct ERs like other reverbs do but rather "early energy". You can read about the concept here: I really like it.








ValhallaRoom: Early Reflections versus Early Energy - Valhalla DSP


The reverberation algorithms in ValhallaRoom are separated into 2 sections, Early and Late. This is a fairly common division of tasks in algorithmic




valhalladsp.com


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## Bee_Abney (Dec 23, 2021)

Consona said:


> VRoom does not have distinct ERs like other reverbs do but rather "early energy". You can read about the concept here: I really like it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, I'll check it out!


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