# What latency and buffer are you using?



## JohnG (Sep 23, 2015)

Am I doing something wrong? I'm running 512 on slaves and DAW. I have SSDs for all samples on 3 slave PCs and regular hard drives on Mac / DAW, but those are mostly for Zebra and other synths like Omni, not heavy-sample-based libraries.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Sep 23, 2015)

I use 512 with RME and 1 or 2 in VEP. I find that if I lower it, the CPU usage at idle on my slave goes up way too much and I can't get very many voices out of it (even though samples are all on SSD's). Maybe my new computer will have a better performance.


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## Daryl (Sep 23, 2015)

John, why do you think you're doing something wrong? I use 128, but that's because I don't like latency when I'm playing.


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## JohnG (Sep 23, 2015)

Daryl said:


> I use 128, but that's because I don't like latency when I'm playing.



I don't like latency while playing either -- that's the problem. If I lower it to 128 I get crackles.


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## chillbot (Sep 23, 2015)

JohnG said:


> Am I doing something wrong? I'm running 512 on slaves and DAW. I have SSDs for all samples on 3 slave PCs and regular hard drives on Mac / DAW, but those are mostly for Zebra and other synths like Omni, not heavy-sample-based libraries.



What is your audio card? Isn't that what it comes down to? Plus the drivers, have you updated all drivers? I use MOTU with ASIO drivers at 128, no issues no crackles low latency.


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## kdm (Sep 23, 2015)

MOTU here as well at 256 in both Nuendo 7 and DP9. I could run 128 but had some CPU intensive reverbs I just replaced with Spaces so I might go back to 128. Slaves are 256 at believe.


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## JohnG (Sep 23, 2015)

I use RME 9652 cards on the slaves. I don't see how it could be the cards. It's either the CPU or the drives. The CPU is i7-4790k 4.00 GHz and the drive is (mostly) an OCZ setup, a PCIe with mounted SSDs in RAID 0.

[edit: actually, I don't see how it's the CPU or the drives either. Maybe a VE Pro setting? Multiprocessing 4 threads, which is the maximum for this computer apparently.]


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 23, 2015)

256 samples, 2 host buffers in VE Pro.


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## Daryl (Sep 24, 2015)

JohnG said:


> I don't like latency while playing either -- that's the problem. If I lower it to 128 I get crackles.


There are lots of things that will cause that, even if you are using the best audio card drivers (which you are). Inefficient sample players, too many CPU intensive reverbs just for starters.

is it the slave that is causing the problem? What are you running on the slave?

D


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## chimuelo (Sep 24, 2015)

Last night I tried out 64 128 256 and 512.
All worked fine with Bidule.
I use DSP and hardware Reverb.
512 was 5.6 msec. Which is the time it takes a drummers Cymbal to reach my ears 10 feet away.

Never had to adjust this for crackles in GSIF but K2 was when I first heard audio crap.
Set to 128 and 256 to fix that.
I7 CPUs and K4/K5 have never caused a problem at any setting but MIDI seemed sluggish @ 512.


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## EastWest Lurker (Sep 24, 2015)

Logic Pro is set to 256 here, connects with 2 buffers to my PC v-frames, 1 buffer to v-frames on my iMac. Very little perceived latency when I play.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 24, 2015)

256, 1-2 buffers on VEP, but John, if I remember correctly you're runnng a big template. I find it's very scripting specific. Some of my libraries:

Lass. Very efficient. HB and HS Gold not bad, but harder on CPU than LASS. Cinematic strings 2- pretty draining. EW Choirs with WB- very draining, same with Embertone solo strings and Sample Modeling Brass. On quick test, Albion sucks up some power though I haven't purged it yet. Omni and Trilian use a bunch of power, whereas Stylus is light as a feather. Apocalypse Perc, very efficient, ditto VSL SE winds. Reaktor eats my CPU for a snack.

I suggest you set up your template and start turning things on and off- much will become clear.


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## JohnG (Sep 24, 2015)

Thanks everyone. It's my slaves I'm surprised about, as they sport reasonably robust hardware. I am going to change some drives and things around. I am starting to wonder if I'm using VE Pro exactly right -- settings.

I definitely have some kind of annoying Windows problem and am very tempted to update to Win 10. In a month, maybe.


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## synthpunk (Sep 24, 2015)

512 here, Logic X, Mac Pro 6 core vader helmet, NI, Uhe, Spectrasonics, UA.


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## Vin (Sep 24, 2015)

256-512, but mostly 512 because I guess I don't have those golden ears to tell the difference.

Kontakt (CS 2, Cinebrass, APE, PiB etc.), Omnisphere, VSL and lots of plugins. Looking to add Hollywood Orchestra in the near future to simplify my mixing process and focus on the music.

With ~100 tracks in my general template all playing simultaneously, my real-time CPU usage is between 20-30% (Cubase 6.5.5, Komplete Audio 6, Windows 7 Ultimate).


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## guydoingmusic (Sep 24, 2015)

64-128 here. Im using the Apollo Quad Firewire. Win7 i7 3930k 64gb ram. Cubase 8. All SSD's.


With most non-orchestral projects, I run at 64. Big Orchestral template usually have to bump it up to 128. My template is setup with a premade mix ready to bounce when finished. The Apollo is a workhorse for sure. 

I do run a slave system, but only for EW Hollywood stuff. Still no change in buffer settings.

Low latency is VERY important to me. I switched from the MOTU 2408 mk3 to the Apollo... and haven't looked back.


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## Pietro (Sep 24, 2015)

512, anything lower is a glitchfest unfortunately in more complex orchestral projects. Mostly EW Hollywood stuff and Kontakt.

RME UCX, 6-core i7, 64GB RAM, mostly SSDs. No VEPro, just Cubase.

- Piotr


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## JohnG (Sep 24, 2015)

Pietro said:


> 512, anything lower is a glitchfest unfortunately in more complex orchestral projects



This is where I am as well. Will try a few things and if it gets better, report back. Thank you all!


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## chrysshawk (Sep 24, 2015)

256, Rme, C8Pro, with 0 latency on vep instances. Works well tutti, even with processing per section turned on.


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## Rob Elliott (Sep 24, 2015)

John - running all w7 64 bit machines (Nuendo 5. x), RME multiface 2 (only on master) - none of my slaves have soundcards (all thru VEPRO 5 to master). My writing template is striped of all eq's, processing things, etc. (turned off or muted) and I get away with *128 with 2 buffers on VEP*. Feels natural. Of course the denser the orch/arrangement the more touch and go it might get (I have had to bump up to 256 in that instance). Of course always mix at 1024 on RME. Good cat6 sheilded cables, switch and decent 'master' puter (with pro card) and you should get to 128. 

Remember to keep the writing template as lean as possible (I bet I have over 700 midi tracks...BUT no processing is turned on AND I don't keep one more track then I 'think' I need. If I find myself 'never' using a track (after a month or so) - it gets removed. 

This main will be replaced in Jan (3.5 years old) - should get even better. But of course when I update to N6 of N7 it could change everything (which is why I haven't - loving how things flow now.) Hope there is something in the above that can help. Best of luck.

(It really helped to use Valhalla verb rather than B2 on my writing starting point. In many cases I actually stay with it - VERY light on resources AND I love the sound - hard to believe something that cheap sounds that good.)


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## kitekrazy (Sep 24, 2015)

JohnG said:


> I use RME 9652 cards on the slaves. I don't see how it could be the cards. It's either the CPU or the drives. The CPU is i7-4790k 4.00 GHz and the drive is (mostly) an OCZ setup, a PCIe with mounted SSDs in RAID 0.
> 
> [edit: actually, I don't see how it's the CPU or the drives either. Maybe a VE Pro setting? *Multiprocessing 4 threads*, which is the maximum for this computer apparently.]



The option should be 8 in VE Pro with hyperthreading.


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## JohnG (Sep 24, 2015)

These are all good suggestions. I am going to keep looking into possible issues, especially because:

1. DAW is 12 core 3.46 GHz Mac w/64 GB RAM. Don't use much / any processing because I have an outboard reverb and I record to a second Mac with Protools. So, there's not a big load on this computer to start with.

2. Three PC slaves all i7 chips 3.x or better, with all SSD sample drives and plenty of memory, with RME PCI sound cards. It is these slaves that are holding up the program so I'm going to focus on that, including (kitekrazy) checking the VE Pro / hyper threading settings.

Thanks again -- *you guys have definitely convinced me that there's a solution*. I'm also in the process of loading up a bunch of new Spitfire libraries, which slightly complicates everything, but anyway, thanks again.


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## rgames (Sep 24, 2015)

Have you tried removing the sound cards and running over ethernet? Way back when (7-8 years ago?) I found lower latency over the network than with audio hardware in the slaves.

I run my full template at 128 buffer at 44.1 kHz with 1 buffer for VE Pro - that's 6 ms or somewhere around there (do the math...). Smaller projects can run at 64. My master is an i7 4930k and my slave is an i5 2500k, both on stock Win7 (no tweaks) with all orchestral libraries on SSD.

It can be dependent on the libraries - I use VSL/LASS/EWQL Brass/Cinebrass and all the usual synths. Of course, it's also dependent on voice count - higher voice counts generally require higher latencies in order to prevent clicks/pops. I can get 1250 - 1500 LASS/VSL voices out of either machine (CPU doesn't matter) at that buffer setting. Also, Macs generally run at higher latencies.

Honestly, though, "fast" acoustic instruments have latencies in the 50 ms - 100 ms range, and it's not even constant across the instrument. "Slow" acoustic instruments (e.g. bass instruments) have latencies of hundreds of ms. So trying to get down below 10 ms is fun for geeks but not much practical use. People have been playing acoustic instruments for a few millennia and musicians learned to adapt to the latency. Your brain is good at that type of stuff. Well, most peoples' brains are - I assume you have at least an average brain .

Latency used to be a problem back in the early days of digital because it was many hundreds and possibly thousands of ms. But it's not an issue any more - pretty much any machine can do better than acoustic instruments. People have just forgotten to stop worrying about it...

HOWEVER, there are plug-ins that add latency that doesn't appear in the values reported by your DAW. I have a lin phase EQ that adds 1000 ms or more sometimes and, of course, that latency is very noticeable even though the DAW says the latency is 6 ms or whatever. So disable all your plug-ins before judging the responsiveness.

For me, somewhere around 15 ms is where I can't reliably tell a difference. But even at latencies higher than that, I can adapt with no issues. My guess is that somewhere around 100 ms is where I would call it "unplayable."

rgames


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## JohnG (Oct 6, 2015)

rgames said:


> I run my full template at 128 buffer at 44.1 kHz with 1 buffer for VE Pro - that's 6 ms or somewhere around there (do the math...). Smaller projects can run at 64. My master is an i7 4930k and my slave is an i5 2500k, both on stock Win7 (no tweaks) with all orchestral libraries on SSD.



HI Richard -- thank you for this post. If I could match your 128 that would be a huge improvement. Still working on it and will probably update to Windows 10 on the principal culprit machine. I appear to have some kind of corrupted Windows 7, based on some other behaviour with a backup machine.

I haven't been using any plugins at all, so that's not it.

I haven't tried VE Pro for midi -- I'm using ethernet but it's MidiOverLAN. I may try that next if I can; I am locked in to using hardware audio so I had assumed I couldn't use VE Pro for midi. However, upon reflection, that seems like an assumption based on a guess. Using hardware audio may not preclude using VE Pro server, so that's what I'll do if this doesn't work.

Thanks again,

John


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## Mr. Anxiety (Nov 4, 2015)

JohnG said:


> HI Richard -- thank you for this post. If I could match your 128 that would be a huge improvement. Still working on it and will probably update to Windows 10 on the principal culprit machine. I appear to have some kind of corrupted Windows 7, based on some other behaviour with a backup machine.
> 
> I haven't been using any plugins at all, so that's not it.
> 
> ...


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## Mr. Anxiety (Nov 4, 2015)

John, I also think a big factor to the performance is the scripting. It's the big "X" factor in getting a glitch free playback of a large template. I recently moved my Sable Violins 2 from a Kontakt instance that had all (5) sections in it to it's own Kontakt instance in the SAME VEP host on a slave and the glitching during a unison string run performance went completely away! So this is a complex issue to solve. Not sure why that helped.

Just an observation to add to the dilemma.

Good Luck...... We all need it!

Mr. A


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## JohnG (Nov 4, 2015)

Mr. Anxiety said:


> I recently moved my Sable Violins 2 from a Kontakt instance that had all (5) sections in it to it's own Kontakt instance in the SAME VEP host on a slave and the glitching during a unison string run performance went completely away!



I have violin1, violin2 and violas in the same Kontakt instance. Trouble is, at a buffer of 256 I'm getting glitching on legato transitions on a single line.


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## Vision (Nov 4, 2015)

JohnG said:


> These are all good suggestions. I am going to keep looking into possible issues, especially because:
> 
> 1. DAW is 12 core 3.46 GHz Mac w/64 GB RAM. Don't use much / any processing because I have an outboard reverb and I record to a second Mac with Protools. So, there's not a big load on this computer to start with.
> 
> ...



Hey I'm curious. What Daw do you use? I've been using the same 3.46 12 core for about a year.. No slaves, no VEP. Logic Pro X. Still on OS 10.9.5 (I've experienced less efficiency with Yosemite). 1 pci SSD for system. 2 more pci SSD's for the samples. For work/tv stuff I generally fluctuate between 64 and 128. Orchestra 128-256. Rarely 512. Audio card is saffire pro DSP 24. What sample libraries cause crackles for you? How big is your template exactly?


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## JohnG (Nov 4, 2015)

Hi Vision -- I use Digital Performer. The problem I'm having is not with that, but on a slave PC with Kontakt / VE Pro. I started another thread with a lot of detail here: http://vi-control.net/community/threads/kontakt-optimisation.49550/#post-3908326

The main DAW computer is massively underutilized but so, really, are the PCs. Back on the DAW computer (a Mac), I like to have tons of headroom so I can add 100 Zebra or Omnisphere instances if the job calls for it.


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## samphony (Nov 4, 2015)

@JohnG ive answered in the other thread too. Have you tried to split the v1 and v2? I have them in their own kontakt instance. Also go over to audinate.com and download Dante virtual sound card. I tried that 3 days ago. It will give you up to 64 channels of audio to stream between your Macs and the 3 slaves. That way you could keep your workflow as is (as you print anyways) and test the audio issues without the RME cards.


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## jdieks (Nov 5, 2015)

Hey John,

My experience with VSL is that in the end projects get much heavier and less workable then making track presets for different instruments and loading them when needed in Nuendo. (for instance, load a cinesamples percussion preset and you get a whole load of tracks loaded at once. Or part of it, depending on the preset.)
I work on 512, on a 3930k running at 4.5 (overclocked). It seems to be JUST enough to finish a whole project on, including mixing, all on 512 with ASIO guard set to "high". You could probably also run at 256, but the ASIO meter will be less stable.
On that same system loading old projects with whole Vienna Ensemble templates with 3 different computers seems to bring the main system down sooner since every instance of VSL cost processing power without doing something. While most sample based instruments hardly use processing power at all, the processing power needed goes in all the effects I'm using for the most part.
It has crossed my mind though that the problem could be that my old systems are still q6600 quadcore systems, but they are using separate intel ethernet cards. So I kinda doubt that (the q6600 is from the same generation as those old westmere mac pros I think).

I'm thinking more along the lines of getting a dual xeon and then be done with the satellite computers (I hope)

*although what makes the VSL projects heavy is the ethernet streaming and I'm reading that you're not using that...


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## samphony (Nov 5, 2015)

@jdieks As far as I know @JohnG isnt using the VEP server plugin. He is using RME cards to stream audio and VEP is standalone on every computer.


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## jdieks (Nov 5, 2015)

I noticed that after I have posted the post.. That's why I added the last line.
But still one good computer and a change of workflow might be a good alternative 

a bit off topic: I always wonder how people keep the delay compensation in check with several computers with their own soundcard. Isn't there a lot of guesswork needed then? Since the computer does not know how much to shift the midi when you add effects on the return.

*edit: but you could probably use the external instruments feature to take out the guesswork.


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## samphony (Nov 5, 2015)

The main benefit not using the server plugin = extreme fast project loading times. I never had timing issues that way. 

If your workflow involves a lot of bounce/render in place than this is not for you. If you stem/ bounce/ record in realtime anyways than that might be the preferred way to go. 

We will see what future versions of VEP and Kontakt 6 might bring but I for myself decided to go back to record in realtime if orchestral and non orchestral elements a offloaded outside the DAW.


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## jdieks (Nov 5, 2015)

Half of my mix is always done on groups (nuendo/cubase) / aux tracks (pro-tools). I hardly ever have to export stems, so my way of mixing is more of an old school "pop" way, where the drums might go on a drum group, orchestra on one, synths on one (so basic stems really  ), but also all the effects (reverbs etc) on one to glue them together with each other instead of the sounds that are reverberated. And then heavy processing on the master. With tape on all of them, console emulation, some compression everywhere and some eqing.

Especially the tape plugins cause a lot of delay, which would make my way of working unworkable with all the instruments coming in on audio tracks. If you would want to keep everything realtime.
But I used to have a lot of hardware synths coming in as external instruments where cubase/nuendo just shifted the midi to compensate for heavy plugins. You could of course also use that feature in this situation I guess, making an external instrument for every audio output of another computer.
It would probably work a lot better then the server solution (a bit stupid that I never thought of this before  )


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## reddognoyz (Nov 5, 2015)

currently running at 128 DP and VEP at 4 buffers. I can't hear/feel any diff between VEP 4 buffers and 2 buffers. I'ts pushing the envelope though. 256 DP and VEP 2 buffers has been my usual setting. 512 is too laggy for me to play with any feel.


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## JohnG (Nov 5, 2015)

samphony said:


> @jdieks As far as I know @JohnG isnt using the VEP server plugin. He is using RME cards to stream audio and VEP is standalone on every computer.



Correct -- thanks again samphony for your suggestion to separate everything -- that is good enough for now. Quoting below the post from the other thread about Kontakt.

---------------------

SOLVED (at least enough)

Thanks to everyone -- this morning I took samphony's advice (and EvilDragon) and tried separate instances of Kontakt for V1, V2 and Vla. That improved things a lot, so I then substituted the "stereo" mic positions for the multi mic positions and that seems to have eliminated the transition glitches completely.

I still wonder if there's something going on with Windows 10 that keeps the CPU doing things in the background that we don't want / need. Windows 10 seems premised on the idea that the computer is constantly, permanently hooked up to the internet, which of course a PC slave doesn't need to be at all.

So maybe over time the geniuses around here will start sniping down Windows 10 issues (if indeed that's what it is) that free up more of one's CPU. Frankly, with an 8 core 4.2 GHz computer, playing a single octave passage should be a snap, especially at a 512 buffer, even with two mic positions on each line, but this is very workable for now.

Thanks again, everyone!!!


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## samphony (Nov 5, 2015)

JohnG said:


> Correct -- thanks again samphony for your suggestion to separate everything -- that is good enough for now. Quoting below the post from the other thread about Kontakt.
> 
> ---------------------
> 
> ...



Glad it worked out. I was thinking about a new slave too. So it should be win 7 then.


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## animatione (May 19, 2019)

My all instances are outside in the VEP, but WHY when my template is big and connected I HAVE TO USE 512 in Logic which is too uncomfortable for me? To be able to work at all?


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## marclawsonmusic (May 19, 2019)

animatione said:


> My all instances are outside in the VEP, but WHY when my template is big and connected I HAVE TO USE 512 in Logic which is too uncomfortable for me? To be able to work at all?



It's all about how you have the template configured. Especially in Logic.

In Logic, I would suggest creating more VEPro instances - each connected to a Software Instrument track. I have been able to run 400+ tracks like this, BUT... I keep the VEPro plugin disabled until I need it. Right now, I am running a smaller template, but still have about 25-30 VEPro instances. I am able to run at 128 buffer so very little latency.


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## animatione (May 20, 2019)

Hello, this can be helpful. Do you mean disabled in Logic? Or track set off. Or what? I would be so happy not to touch the VEP?
Another thing I can draw a remote switch off on for the instrument, but this may not change anything. Do yo mean disabling the Vienna Ensemble Plugin on the track in Logic, just switching this off while it is connected? I need to learn how to deal with those terrible crackles


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## marclawsonmusic (May 20, 2019)

animatione said:


> Hello, this can be helpful. Do you mean disabled in Logic? Or track set off. Or what? I would be so happy not to touch the VEP?
> Another thing I can draw a remote switch off on for the instrument, but this may not change anything. Do yo mean disabling the Vienna Ensemble Plugin on the track in Logic, just switching this off while it is connected? I need to learn how to deal with those terrible crackles



I meant that I keep the VEPro plugin in Logic as 'bypassed' on the track until I need it. It does not use resources while it is bypassed.


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## LinusW (May 20, 2019)

I usually do fine with 256.


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## Hasici (May 24, 2019)

I use UR22MK2 with like 96 samples for super duper low latency. Don't get any cracks.


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