# New Mac Mini M1



## jtnyc (Feb 19, 2021)

Anyone here using one of these? I’m currently looking to buy a new machine. I was leaning towards a 2020 iMac, but I’m not all that into the imac form and I’m not that sure about getting an Intel machine with this new generation of Macs becoming available. In a perfect world I would wait and see what is around the corner. The mini seems great except for the 16 gig ram limitation. My 2008 Mac Pro is dead and I need to get something. I just don’t feel good about my options. Get the 2020 iMac and I‘m buying an expensive rig that is the last Intel and apparently runs hot with people complaining about fan noise, revving etc. Get the new Mini and only have 16 gigs of ram. I currently only have 16 and really it’s not been that big an issue. I do run low sometimes, but I’m not running major orchestral templates. I was however planning on putting 64 gigs in my next machine. So I’m thinking of looking at this purchase maybe as a bridge. Something that I can run for a year or 2, then seeing what the the Apple silicon machines are offering. I’m super confused and keep changing my mind on which way to go. I’m even considering a 2018 mini cause I can at least throw 64 gigs of ram in it... 

Anyone thoughts and experience with any of these machines is much appreciated

Thanks


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## rnb_2 (Feb 19, 2021)

I've had one since November, and couldn't be happier with it. I had a 16GB/256GB configuration, but decided to return it on the last day I could after 16GB/512GB machines magically became available at one of the NYC stores (they'd been backordered for weeks, so I'd given up on finding one in time). Unlike my 2018 i7 mini, it's completely silent and runs cool, and is actually slightly faster even when running translated Intel software - it's significantly faster when running native code.

I haven't heard of 2020 iMacs running particularly hot - most everybody here with the i7 or i9 says they rarely hear the fans - but if you don't need the RAM, I'd absolutely go with the M1 mini.


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## jtnyc (Feb 20, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> I've had one since November, and couldn't be happier with it. I had a 16GB/256GB configuration, but decided to return it on the last day I could after 16GB/512GB machines magically became available at one of the NYC stores (they'd been backordered for weeks, so I'd given up on finding one in time). Unlike my 2018 i7 mini, it's completely silent and runs cool, and is actually slightly faster even when running translated Intel software - it's significantly faster when running native code.
> 
> I haven't heard of 2020 iMacs running particularly hot - most everybody here with the i7 or i9 says they rarely hear the fans - but if you don't need the RAM, I'd absolutely go with the M1 mini.


Thanks for the input Rick. May I ask what kind of projects you are running on the M1 Mini? Do you use a good amount of the 16gigs of ram you have and how does the performance feel when your at the upper limit?
Would you say your Intel Mini ran hot in general? Fan noise? How was the overall cpu performance of the Intel vs the Apple Silicon?

I’m trying to decide between the 2 at this point and surely prefer going with the newer, cooler, quieter, and potentially more efficient M1, but am unsure mainly because of the ram restriction. God I wish there was at least a 32 gig option!

Thanks


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## davidson (Feb 20, 2021)

It might be worth waiting a few weeks for the apple conference in March. The M1X apparently supports 32GB of ram, so fingers crossed they add the M1X as an option for the mini and not just the imac and 16" MBP.


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## jtnyc (Feb 20, 2021)

davidson said:


> It might be worth waiting a few weeks for the apple conference in March. The M1X apparently supports 32GB of ram, so fingers crossed they add the M1X as an option for the mini and not just the imac and 16" MBP.


Thanks for the heads up. Where did you read that the M1x will support 32 gigs of ram? Every article I’ve read states that the max will still be 16. I hope they are wrong... and there’s no mention of the Mini‘s when discussing M1x, just Macbooks and iMacs...
I could be swayed to an iMac, but really do prefer a Mini at this time.

Thanks


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## davidson (Feb 20, 2021)

jtnyc said:


> Thanks for the heads up. Where did you read that the M1x will support 32 gigs of ram? Every article I’ve read states that the max will still be 16. I hope they are wrong... and there’s no mention of the Mini‘s when discussing M1x, just Macbooks and iMacs...
> I could be swayed to an iMac, but really do prefer a Mini at this time.
> 
> Thanks


I've read it in a few articles now, here for example https://hothardware.com/news/apple-m1x-processor-specs-allegedly-leaked


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## Bakhtin (Feb 20, 2021)

just to add, the M1 'system on a chip' design does handle RAM differently and more efficiently than the intel Macs - there is stuff out there if you want to read/watch - some example of way more tacks in logic vs intel with same RAM.

FWIW, I have an intel 2018 i7 mini - works fine, 32gb RAM. I do some modest sized orchestral stuff and have not had RAM problems. Can't wait to get one of the new Macs - likely a mini in a year or two.

Perhaps you could pick up a used intel mini to bridge you until an upgraded mini shows up?


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## rnb_2 (Feb 20, 2021)

jtnyc said:


> Thanks for the input Rick. May I ask what kind of projects you are running on the M1 Mini? Do you use a good amount of the 16gigs of ram you have and how does the performance feel when your at the upper limit?
> Would you say your Intel Mini ran hot in general? Fan noise? How was the overall cpu performance of the Intel vs the Apple Silicon?
> 
> I’m trying to decide between the 2 at this point and surely prefer going with the newer, cooler, quieter, and potentially more efficient M1, but am unsure mainly because of the ram restriction. God I wish there was at least a 32 gig option!
> ...


I don't do anything very heavy on the music side with either mini - both are 16GB, as that's all I've needed for my photo/video processing. I've rarely seen my M1 mini's RAM usage go above even 50%, but I haven't really thrown anything too taxing at it.

From what others have said, the M1 does seem to handle RAM very efficiently, with some indications that, at least in some ways, 16GB on an M1 acts like 32GB on Intel. The only performance comparison I've done was exporting a batch of JPEGs converted from raw photos in Adobe Lightroom Classic (still Intel-only), and the M1 was about 5% faster than the 2018 i7 with a Vega 56 eGPU. Aside from first startup of an Intel app (when the M1 does the translation from Intel to ARM), every piece of software I've used on the M1 feels at least as snappy as on Intel, and some things are noticeably faster.

I wouldn't put too much credence on a March Apple event providing any more illumination for the Mac - even when it happens (the rumored March 16th event has already been shot down by a well-connected journalist), it's almost certainly going to be mostly an iPad event. The next round of new Macs will probably be announced in June at WWDC, and will probably be MacBook Pros and possibly a lower-end iMac to replace the current 21.5" model (which wasn't really updated last year with the 27").

At this point, I would not recommend an Intel mini over the M1 unless you absolutely need to get something with 64GB of RAM right now - I'd recommend a 16GB M1 over an Intel with 32GB, from everything I've seen. My Intel mini is always at least warm, sometimes very, and under any significant load, the internal fan is added to the fans of the eGPU. I'm almost always wearing headphones when working at that machine, so it doesn't bother me, but the M1 is silent, always.


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## Billy Palmer (Feb 20, 2021)

Bakhtin said:


> just to add, the M1 'system on a chip' design does handle RAM differently and more efficiently than the intel Macs - there is stuff out there if you want to read/watch - some example of way more tacks in logic vs intel with same RAM.
> 
> FWIW, I have an intel 2018 i7 mini - works fine, 32gb RAM. I do some modest sized orchestral stuff and have not had RAM problems. Can't wait to get one of the new Macs - likely a mini in a year or two.
> 
> Perhaps you could pick up a used intel mini to bridge you until an upgraded mini shows up?


Is there somewhere I can see examples please - specifically with Kontakt?
I've been waiting for these comparisons...


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## jtnyc (Feb 20, 2021)

Regarding the ram, I can believe things can be way faster and more efficient, but 16 gigs or ram is 16 gigs of ram, right? I mean if you load up a selection of sample libraries and they add up to 16 gigs, I would assume that that’s it, you can’t load anymore... right?


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## jtnyc (Feb 20, 2021)

Bakhtin said:


> Perhaps you could pick up a used intel mini to bridge you until an upgraded mini shows up?


I have thought of this, but man, the new Mini is so affordable. A top specked out Intel Mini refurb at OWC comes to around $1800. The top specked M1 Mini is $1299. It’s really the matter of the ram, otherwise it’s M1 all the way


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## rnb_2 (Feb 20, 2021)

jtnyc said:


> Regarding the ram, I can believe things can be way faster and more efficient, but 16 gigs or ram is 16 gigs of ram, right? I mean if you load up a selection of sample libraries and they add up to 16 gigs, I would assume that that’s it, you can’t load anymore... right?


That's the trick, right? You'd think it would be straightforward, but there seems to be something happening between the tightly-integrated CPU/GPU/RAM package and the system swap file that makes even the 8GB M1s feel different from 8GB Intel machines. It's hard to quantify for different workflows, because anybody who is certain they need 64GB+ of RAM isn't going to buy an M1 for laughs, and somebody like me has the hardware but not the heavy sample libraries or musical chops to systematically test.

I'd say that, if you currently have 16GB and haven't had many problems, there's no reason to believe that an M1 will have more issues than you've already experienced, and good reason to believe it will work better. If you're thinking of getting something else in 12-24 months, I don't see a reason not to get an M1 as a bridge to that time. It's going to be so much faster than your 2008 Mac Pro, it will make your head spin.


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## davidson (Feb 20, 2021)

jtnyc said:


> Regarding the ram, I can believe things can be way faster and more efficient, but 16 gigs or ram is 16 gigs of ram, right? I mean if you load up a selection of sample libraries and they add up to 16 gigs, I would assume that that’s it, you can’t load anymore... right?


I believe you're correct, this user had issues hitting their ram limitations https://vi-control.net/community/threads/has-anyone-took-an-m1-mac-past-its-ram-limits-yet.105715/


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## Elephant (Feb 20, 2021)

To OP - has your 2008 MacPro actually stopped working ?


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## jtnyc (Feb 20, 2021)

Elephant said:


> To OP - has your 2008 MacPro actually stopped working ?


It has. I’ve brought this thing back from the dead quite a few times over the years. I had random restarts for months on end and solved it with a fresh install, twice. I had random shutdowns and fixed it with a new video card. Now it’s not booting. Computer power light illuminates and the fans spin up, but no chime and no boot progress bar. Screen stays black. I’ve tried just about everything I can find. Resat all the ram, moved the video card to another pci slot, cleaned everything. Tried resetting PRAM, SMC etc... no luck so far. It’s a 13 year old computer and I’d love to see it go. I just wish it would give me another year or so in order for more Silicon models to come out. We’ll see, I’m still hacking away trying different things. Maybe power supply, maybe video card, but I don’t think so. I left the computer on for 3 weeks after this started happening last month and everything was running perfectly, then my finder got jammed up when an external drive wouldn’t eject and I had to shut it down. Last month when it would not boot, but after several tries it eventually would. Not this time.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 20, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> I don't do anything very heavy on the music side with either mini - both are 16GB, as that's all I've needed for my photo/video processing.


Rick, do you use DaVinci Resolve by any chance?

Just curious because my 5,1 Mac Pro laughs at music software, but it's finally met its match with video.


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## Elephant (Feb 20, 2021)

jtnyc said:


> I just wish it would give me another year or so in order for more Silicon models to come out.


You really do have it right here IME. That would be the ideal. If anyone here can chip in and help get a final life out of this thing, that would in my view be the best option. Logic boards on ebay are only $100 or so, and someone here might even have an old 2008 machine here that they can loan you. And just a thought - are you still on El Capitan (last official OS for that box) or did you hack it to go higher ?

If you have to buy a new machine and can live with a hard limit of 16GB for a year or two, then the new mini seems to make the most sense a) because you can try it with your projects and interface (assuming the interface is compatible) and if it does not perform send it back, and b) when you sell it to get a better model, your resale will probably (YMMV) be OK so you will not lose too much. Or you can get a cheap old PC slave and VEPro it to the new mini ......

The one thing that is certain in my mind is that Apple will not wait 13 years before bringing out a version of their OS that does not run on Intel macs - based on past experience it might only be 4 or 5 years (YMMV).


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## kgdrum (Feb 20, 2021)

@jtnyc

Considering the meager choices at this particular moment in time if I was in your position I’d be looking for a good used Mac to tide me over for a year or two so I could see how the new Silicon Macs evolve.
OWC has some decent used Macs and I’d be confident that they were tested and fully functional.Just add some ram and or upgrade the processor to a 6 core and you’re up and running. 👍
Something like this:





Configure your own Apple Mac Pro (2010-2012) at OWC


All Mac Pro desktops are fully inspected by Apple Certified Technicians and include a 14-day money-back guarantee. Browse our selection online.




eshop.macsales.com


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## rnb_2 (Feb 20, 2021)

I know there are other considerations involved here, but assuming the OP has already been over those and landed on an M1 mini as a possibility, I can't see spending as much on a used Mac Pro as an M1 mini right now. If the OP actually had a ton of RAM in his (apparently dead) 2008 Mac Pro, I'd absolutely go for a cheap replacement cheesegrater, but he hasn't needed more than 16GB yet, and any M1 mini he buys today will have a nice trade-in/resale market in 12-24 months if he can't come up with another use for it. RAM is really the only reason not to buy an M1 right now, and I don't see it as a dealbreaker in this case.


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## rnb_2 (Feb 20, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Rick, do you use DaVinci Resolve by any chance?
> 
> Just curious because my 5,1 Mac Pro laughs at music software, but it's finally met its match with video.


I do have Resolve, but have not used it in a while. It was pretty usable on my 2018 i7 mini with the Vega 56 eGPU the last time I worked with it in mid-2019, but I haven't done much video work since then. Video does demand a lot from the GPU in particular, but also probably benefits from some of the additional features of newer CPUs beyond sheer GHz grunt.


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## kgdrum (Feb 20, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> I know there are other considerations involved here, but assuming the OP has already been over those and landed on an M1 mini as a possibility, I can't see spending as much on a used Mac Pro as an M1 mini right now. If the OP actually had a ton of RAM in his (apparently dead) 2008 Mac Pro, I'd absolutely go for a cheap replacement cheesegrater, but he hasn't needed more than 16GB yet, and any M1 mini he buys today will have a nice trade-in/resale market in 12-24 months if he can't come up with another use for it. RAM is really the only reason not to buy an M1 right now, and I don't see it as a dealbreaker in this case.


As nice as the M1 looks potentially I would not feel comfortable buying a 1st generation of any Mac computer for serious work.
We’ve seen too many times the 2nd generation is always improved on,
the 1st run doesn’t usually qualify for future upgrade paths shows it’s design limitations and is improved on.
If I understand correctly you’re not using your M1 MacMini for DA work.
For about $1000 the OP can replace the MacPro for a newer & better model which offers the same basic setup he’s already used to.
Multiple internal drives,expandability etc.......
In my opinion this can hold the OP over until the 2nd generation of the M1 MacMini or 2nd generation of the M1 Mac Pro.
In October I replaced my tray transforming my 2012 6core 32g into a 12 core 96g MP with that in mind and it’s been great!
I primarily did this to hold me on a stable yet powerful rig until I see how the dust settles with the next generation of Silicon based Macs. For serious work a 1st generation? Never but this is just my opinion.


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## rnb_2 (Feb 20, 2021)

I do use DAWs on my M1 (Logic, Studio One, Waveform), though not strenuously - what Logic does to run Intel plugins is magic.

I hear you on 1st generation concerns, but this is a Mac mini - the only thing lost compared to the Intel version is RAM expansion. Compared to the Intel versions, the M1 MacBook Pro and MacBook Air lost nothing in future upgradeability, because there already was none. No matter what happens, we're unlikely to see a 2nd generation of any "professional" desktop ARM Mac (high end iMac or Mac Pro equivalent) in the next 24 months, so if that's the criteria, whatever bridge the OP goes with is going to have to last even longer.


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## kgdrum (Feb 20, 2021)

Yeah I also suspect about 24 months,that’s why I decided to upgrade my tray in the meantime. 👍


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## thevisi0nary (Feb 21, 2021)

Gonna echo what a few others have said here, if it were me I would wait a year/ 2 years until the early adoption phase comes to an end. There are more obvious benefits to the m1 laptops, but I don’t believe the benefits of arm are enough to switch to a desktop m1 in its current compatibility state. 

Not saying a small, powerful, and most importantly low power usage design isn’t great for a desktop, they are just substantially more beneficial to laptops with clear quality of life improvements because of fan noise and battery life. I don’t think putting software compatibility in jeopardy is worth it for a small form factor desktop.

If I were you and was set on a mac, and not considering a hackintosh, I would look at a used imac or Mac Pro and stick with that for 1-2 years.


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## rnb_2 (Feb 21, 2021)

thevisi0nary said:


> I don’t think putting software compatibility in jeopardy is worth it for a small form factor desktop.
> 
> If I were you and was set on a mac, and not considering a hackintosh, I would look at a used imac or Mac Pro and stick with that for 1-2 years.


I honestly have not experienced much in the way of software compatibility issues - it's a bit spooky, honestly, but it works shockingly well - but that doesn't mean that everything will work (there are certainly things that don't, but I haven't experienced that, beyond the early NI issues). It would probably help to know what software @jtnyc was running on the Mac Pro, though.


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## davidson (Feb 21, 2021)

I dread to think how little my 2013 MP will be worth in 2 years once apple are onto their 3rd gen processors.


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## jtnyc (Feb 21, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> I honestly have not experienced much in the way of software compatibility issues - it's a bit spooky, honestly, but it works shockingly well - but that doesn't mean that everything will work (there are certainly things that don't, but I haven't experienced that, beyond the early NI issues). It would probably help to know what software @jtnyc was running on the Mac Pro, though.


I run Logic, Kontakt, NI synths, Spectrasonics, u-he synths. 
Fabfilter, Soundtoys, SSL 

from what I’ve seen and read, Rosetta 2 is working great and I don’t think it will be all that long before everyone catches up and we wont have to run Rosetta. Honestly I’m leaning M1 this afternoon. I do need to make a decision within a couple of days. I can get an Intel mini with 64 gigs of ram and a 1 tb drive for $1799 from OWC. That is an option......


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## el-bo (Feb 21, 2021)

jtnyc said:


> I run Logic, Kontakt, NI synths, Spectrasonics, u-he synths.
> Fabfilter, Soundtoys, SSL
> 
> from what I’ve seen and read, Rosetta 2 is working great and I don’t think it will be all that long before everyone catches up and we wont have to run Rosetta. Honestly I’m leaning M1 this afternoon. I do need to make a decision within a couple of days. I can get an Intel mini with 64 gigs of ram and a 1 tb drive for $1799 from OWC. That is an option......


Or you ciuld get a second-hand Intel i5 mini, with 16 or 32g ram, for a lot less money. You'll definitely get a good few years out of it, by which point things will be much clearer.


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## davidson (Feb 21, 2021)

jtnyc said:


> I run Logic, Kontakt, NI synths, Spectrasonics, u-he synths.
> Fabfilter, Soundtoys, SSL
> 
> from what I’ve seen and read, Rosetta 2 is working great and I don’t think it will be all that long before everyone catches up and we wont have to run Rosetta. Honestly I’m leaning M1 this afternoon. I do need to make a decision within a couple of days. I can get an Intel mini with 64 gigs of ram and a 1 tb drive for $1799 from OWC. That is an option......


I think you should just jump into an M1 mini and let the rest of us know how you get on with large kontakt projects. You should suffer so the rest of us don't have to, like a modern day composer jesus.


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## gzapper (Feb 21, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> As nice as the M1 looks potentially I would not feel comfortable buying a 1st generation of any Mac computer for serious work.
> We’ve seen too many times the 2nd generation is always improved on,
> the 1st run doesn’t usually qualify for future upgrade paths shows it’s design limitations and is improved on.
> If I understand correctly you’re not using your M1 MacMini for DA work.
> ...


I don't think these are really first generation macs, but more like 11 generation iphones/ipads.
The processors have been around and working for years, this version adds more ram and cores, but really, its the OS that's the big risk here, not the CPU.

Intel seems to be hitting a heat/energy wall where upgrades are smaller, hotter and take more energy.
I work remotely, just built an intel NUC for VE pro (6 core, 64Gb) to travel with so that I can upgrade into an M1 macbook sometime this year, but otherwise think that's the last intel processor I ever want to buy again.


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## kgdrum (Feb 21, 2021)

gzapper said:


> I don't think these are really first generation macs, but more like 11 generation iphones/ipads.
> The processors have been around and working for years, this version adds more ram and cores, but really, its the OS that's the big risk here, not the CPU.
> 
> Intel seems to be hitting a heat/energy wall where upgrades are smaller, hotter and take more energy.
> I work remotely, just built an intel NUC for VE pro (6 core, 64Gb) to travel with so that I can upgrade into an M1 macbook sometime this year, but otherwise think that's the last intel processor I ever want to buy again.


This is an interesting perspective but history has showed us too many times 2nd generation of new Macs are usually revised extensively.


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## Bakhtin (Feb 21, 2021)

If I was in this situation, and given all the reading I've done on the M1 and its audio performance, I'd check that all my core software will work with Big Sur and M1, and if so I'd go for the 16gb M1 mac mini.

Worst case is that you'll want to upgrade again in a couple years, but you'll want to with an intel anyway. And the M1 will likely be cheaper and certainly quieter. In the meantime your single core performance will be way beyond almost any intel mac you could get.

2 cents from someone whose living does not depend on his computer for a living


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 22, 2021)

Bakhtin said:


> Worst case is that you'll want to upgrade again in a couple years, but you'll want to with an intel anyway



My 11-year-old Intel Mac snorts loudly at that suggestion.


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## Geoff Grace (Feb 22, 2021)

Some developers still haven't supported Catalina yet. For example, BFD3 is only in beta on Catalina and the Lexicon LXP Native Reverb Bundle is yet to be Catalina compliant.

At this point, I slightly regret having upgraded to Catalina, although not enough to hassle with going back. I've found workarounds so I can keep making music. Even so, I can't imagine jumping to Big Sur, especially on a new hardware platform.

The bottom line is that the fewer ties you have to the past, the easier it will be to jump ahead. Good luck with your decision.

Best,

Geoff


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## Bakhtin (Feb 22, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> My 11-year-old Intel Mac snorts loudly at that suggestion.


Ha! yes, snorts loudly, processes slowly ...


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## Geoff Grace (Feb 22, 2021)

If you do go the 2018 Mac mini route, it helps to place it on a stand that mounts it bottoms up, so that the heat can rise easily through the back vent (which would then be at the top). This keeps the fan from kicking in most of the time.

That position has the added benefit of providing easy access to the cables and the power button.

Best,

Geoff


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 22, 2021)

Bakhtin said:


> Ha! yes, snorts loudly, processes slowly ...



Not at all!


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## kgdrum (Feb 23, 2021)

I don’t know the validity or how accurate this is but I just ran across this :









M1 Mac users report alarming hard drive health readings — iMore


Many M1 Mac users appear to be seeing really worrisome health warnings from their SSDs after only a few months of use, but there's hope this is a software issue that can be patched by Apple.




apple.news


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## rnb_2 (Feb 23, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> I don’t know the validity or how accurate this is but I just ran across this :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, saw that this morning. It will be interesting to see how things shake out - it could be a bug in the tool that is being used, or it could be a real issue. Some people are reporting similar readings on Intel hardware, so it might be a macOS bug, as well.


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## kgdrum (Feb 23, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> Yeah, saw that this morning. It will be interesting to see how things shake out - it could be a bug in the tool that is being used, or it could be a real issue. Some people are reporting similar readings on Intel hardware, so it might be a macOS bug, as well.


What would also make me pause,I wasn’t aware that the SSD is not replaceable on these..................


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## rnb_2 (Feb 23, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> What would also make me pause,I wasn’t aware that the SSD is not replaceable on these..................


The SSD hasn't been replaceable in most of the recent Macs, not just the M1 - the storage is just a set of chips on the logic board.


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## kgdrum (Feb 23, 2021)

@rnb_2 
That’s part of the reason I stay with my old rig.
I like having choices and being able to modify my Mac.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 23, 2021)

The M1 Mac Mini also requires expensive SSDs if you want to boot from them. I dunno, seems like a machine that looks like a bargain from a distance, but then you start adding everything up and it starts to get expensive.









How to start up your M1 Mac from an external drive


Need to boot your M1 Mac with an external drive? It’s not as easy as it used to be, as it likely requires you purchase new hardware.




www.macworld.com


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## kgdrum (Feb 23, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The M1 Mac Mini also requires expensive SSDs if you want to boot from them. I dunno, seems like a machine that looks like a bargain from a distance, but then you start adding everything up and it starts to get expensive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Potentially expensive and imo limited with expanability and modifications.


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## rnb_2 (Feb 23, 2021)

It's not that expensive to meet those requirements - you'd just need a $79 OWC Envoy Express TB3 enclosure and the NVMe drive of your choice. I did return my original 256GB M1 mini to get a 512GB model, at least in part because sticking to the internal drive for as much as possible has become increasingly important, though.

That said, there are all sorts of things that have changed with external drives, because of both hardware and OS changes (many security related). With Big Sur, it's no longer possible to create and update a bootable backup of the internal drive - Apple's tool to create the (read-only) system drive won't allow it to be updated, so the whole thing would have to be erased and re-copied every time you do a backup. The best option now is to just backup the Data volume and restore from that if you need to create a new startup disk. It sucks, but it's all connected to locking down the OS to keep malware and other sorts of intrusions from modifying it.

Being able to create a bootable backup drive was one of the magical things I discovered when I bought my first Mac back in 2006, and I mourn the loss of it, but so much has changed since then. SSDs are much more reliable than HDDs, so we're no longer at the mercy of a small mechanical failure eliminating our sole connection to the internet and thus the world, and phones have taken over much of that, anyway (or can in a pinch). The vast majority of Macs sold are laptops, and most laptop owners only do rudimentary backups (or just use a cloud service), and never made a bootable backup, so the loss of that ability effects a small (but tech-savvy) part of the market. We miss it, but the vast majority of users never even knew it existed.

I can sympathize with people who are continuing to soldier on with decade-old cheesegraters - I owned one for a bit, and it was a great computer for the time, and still does a great job for many on this board. Maybe the rumored mini-Mac Pro that might arrive in the next 18 months or so will be the modern but less expensive update that many are hoping for, but some things we got used to in an earlier era of computing are not coming back.

I'm fortunate that my computing needs are not that high end these days - I no longer do much 3D work, and the cameras I use haven't gone beyond 20MP - so a smaller, modular setup based around a Mac mini works for me, but I know that's not the case with everybody. We also have multiple Macs, iPads, and iPhones in my household, so one failure would be inconvenient, but not crippling.


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## mscp (Feb 23, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> I've had one since November, and couldn't be happier with it. I had a 16GB/256GB configuration, but decided to return it on the last day I could after 16GB/512GB machines magically became available at one of the NYC stores (they'd been backordered for weeks, so I'd given up on finding one in time). Unlike my 2018 i7 mini, it's completely silent and runs cool, and is actually slightly faster even when running translated Intel software - it's significantly faster when running native code.
> 
> I haven't heard of 2020 iMacs running particularly hot - most everybody here with the i7 or i9 says they rarely hear the fans - but if you don't need the RAM, I'd absolutely go with the M1 mini.


no loud noise even when CPU is at full capacity?


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## kgdrum (Feb 23, 2021)

The thought of boot drives being soldered into the motherboard and the hurdles Apple now makes users to navigate are not in my comfort zone even before discussing the M1 SSD news coming to light. 
if the Mac Pro Mini follows this path i know i for one will be quite leery to the point of ,no thanks.


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## rnb_2 (Feb 23, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> no loud noise even when CPU is at full capacity?


On the iMac, or the M1 mini? I don't have the former, so can't say anything beyond what others have reported, but on the M1 mini, I've yet to hear the fan.


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## mscp (Feb 23, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> On the iMac, or the M1 mini? I don't have the former, so can't say anything beyond what others have reported, but on the M1 mini, I've yet to hear the fan.


Mini.


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## rnb_2 (Feb 23, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> Mini.


Yeah, no comparison with the Intel mini - the fan on that ramps up audibly if you so much as look at it, and it's always warm (still love it, mind you, but it's far from quiet). The M1 mini is, for all intents and purposes, silent - I'm sure you could hear the fan faintly if you put your ear up to it, but from a couple feet away, I never hear it.


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## Nate Johnson (Feb 23, 2021)

2020 8 core iMac w/64gb of ram here. Working on a 50+ track orchestral session now in Logic @128 buffer. She’s barely breaking a sweat and no noise. I Fucking LOVE this machine.

I spent over a year debating what to get and was definitely put off by anybody mentioning fan noise. But a few people on here got the 2020 models and were happy so I finally just went for it.

Apple Silicon will obviously slay - at some point - in the long run. Its just too early to swing that way in my opinion. Ram options aren’t there yet, third-party software isn’t there yet. I’m confident I’ll be using my Intel machine for years to come!


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## mscp (Feb 23, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> Yeah, no comparison with the Intel mini - the fan on that ramps up audibly if you so much as look at it, and it's always warm (still love it, mind you, but it's far from quiet). The M1 mini is, for all intents and purposes, silent - I'm sure you could hear the fan faintly if you put your ear up to it, but from a couple feet away, I never hear it.


WOW. impressive. Thanks.


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## macmac (Feb 23, 2021)

jtnyc said:


> It has. I’ve brought this thing back from the dead quite a few times over the years. I had random restarts for months on end and solved it with a fresh install, twice. I had random shutdowns and fixed it with a new video card. Now it’s not booting. Computer power light illuminates and the fans spin up, but no chime and no boot progress bar. Screen stays black. I’ve tried just about everything I can find. Resat all the ram, moved the video card to another pci slot, cleaned everything. Tried resetting PRAM, SMC etc... no luck so far. It’s a 13 year old computer and I’d love to see it go. I just wish it would give me another year or so in order for more Silicon models to come out. We’ll see, I’m still hacking away trying different things. Maybe power supply, maybe video card, but I don’t think so. I left the computer on for 3 weeks after this started happening last month and everything was running perfectly, then my finder got jammed up when an external drive wouldn’t eject and I had to shut it down. Last month when it would not boot, but after several tries it eventually would. Not this time.


That’s what happened to mine too a few years ago.


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## wayne_rowley (Feb 24, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> Yeah, no comparison with the Intel mini - the fan on that ramps up audibly if you so much as look at it, and it's always warm (still love it, mind you, but it's far from quiet). The M1 mini is, for all intents and purposes, silent - I'm sure you could hear the fan faintly if you put your ear up to it, but from a couple feet away, I never hear it.


That's strange. My 2018 Intel Mini is warm to the touch, but the fan only ever ramps up to audible levels when either doing an offline bounce in logic, or video rendering/exporting. Otherwise it is inaudibly quiet!

I have the i5 though, which may run slightly cooler.

Wayne


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## SupremeFist (Feb 24, 2021)

wayne_rowley said:


> That's strange. My 2018 Intel Mini is warm to the touch, but the fan only ever ramps up to audible levels when either doing an offline bounce in logic, or video rendering/exporting. Otherwise it is inaudibly quiet!
> 
> I have the i5 though, which may run slightly cooler.
> 
> Wayne


I have the loaded i7 stood on its side and it's silent except when bouncing.


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## rnb_2 (Feb 24, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> I have the loaded i7 stood on its side and it's silent except when bouncing.


It's likely that importing photos and building previews in Lightroom, exporting JPEGs from raw photos, and some video tasks are the equivalent of bouncing, and I do those things a lot (particularly the photo stuff). Those use all cores to the max, and I definitely hear it.


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## gzapper (Feb 24, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> The SSD hasn't been replaceable in most of the recent Macs, not just the M1 - the storage is just a set of chips on the logic board.


Hasn't the drive been glued and soldered into macbook pros since around 2016?
I haven't heard of big failures from those machines with ssd's, so that's 4 years of service so far.


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## jtnyc (Feb 25, 2021)

Ok, so I made a decision. I couldn’t go With the M1 MIni. Too many unknowns for me. My Apogee Quartets software is not compatible, not even through Rosetta And they don’t know when it will be. The 16 gig ram limit is also a bridge not far enough... and now I’m reading about excessive warrantable writes to the drive. Users saying that they are experiencing like 2 years of writes in a few months. I don’t know much about ssd lifespan, write capacity, but it did make me scratch my head and add to my resistance. The 2020 iMac was on the list, but I’m not all that into the computer and screen in one deal and it would have been expensive. If it were a new silicon iMac with no ram limitation, I would have considered it.

Anyway, I went with the 6 core i7 Intel mini with 64 gigs of ram and grabbed 2 OWC Thunderbays. All should arrive in a few days. I’m pretty psyched. I think it will suffice for the near future. I’m psyched to see what will be available in a year from now.

Thanks for all of your input everyone


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## kgdrum (Feb 25, 2021)

Good luck! & Congratulations!


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## rnb_2 (Feb 25, 2021)

jtnyc said:


> Ok, so I made a decision. I couldn’t go With the M1 MIni. Too many unknowns for me. My Apogee Quartets software is not compatible, not even through Rosetta And they don’t know when it will be. The 16 gig ram limit is also a bridge not far enough... and now I’m reading about excessive warrantable writes to the drive. Users saying that they are experiencing like 2 years of writes in a few months. I don’t know much about ssd lifespan, write capacity, but it did make me scratch my head and add to my resistance. The 2020 iMac was on the list, but I’m not all that into the computer and screen in one deal and it would have been expensive. If it were a new silicon iMac with no ram limitation, I would have considered it.
> 
> Anyway, I went with the 6 core i7 Intel mini with 64 gigs of ram and grabbed 2 OWC Thunderbays. All should arrive in a few days. I’m pretty psyched. I think it will suffice for the near future. I’m psyched to see what will be available in a year from now.
> 
> Thanks for all of your input everyone


Congratulations - I've been happy with my i7 mini for over two years, and it should serve you well. Totally understand not going with the M1, given a known software incompatibility.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Feb 25, 2021)

jtnyc said:


> Ok, so I made a decision. I couldn’t go With the M1 MIni. Too many unknowns for me. My Apogee Quartets software is not compatible, not even through Rosetta And they don’t know when it will be. The 16 gig ram limit is also a bridge not far enough... and now I’m reading about excessive warrantable writes to the drive. Users saying that they are experiencing like 2 years of writes in a few months. I don’t know much about ssd lifespan, write capacity, but it did make me scratch my head and add to my resistance. The 2020 iMac was on the list, but I’m not all that into the computer and screen in one deal and it would have been expensive. If it were a new silicon iMac with no ram limitation, I would have considered it.
> 
> Anyway, I went with the 6 core i7 Intel mini with 64 gigs of ram and grabbed 2 OWC Thunderbays. All should arrive in a few days. I’m pretty psyched. I think it will suffice for the near future. I’m psyched to see what will be available in a year from now.
> 
> Thanks for all of your input everyone


I’m in the same boat, and my Apogee Element is not ready for M1. Going to go for the 2020 iMac i7.


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## gzapper (Feb 25, 2021)

I was considering the same thing but opted to build a portable VE pro rig off an Intel NUC, it'll give me enough sample power to last until the M1x is out and then allow me to move to the better processing even if it won't take that much ram.


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## Vik (Feb 27, 2021)

Nate Johnson said:


> 2020 8 core iMac w/64gb of ram here.


Hi, I'm considering an iMac now. Are the internal drives m.2 drives, or 'normal' SSDs?


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## rnb_2 (Feb 27, 2021)

Vik said:


> Hi, I'm considering an iMac now. Are the internal drives m.2 drives, or 'normal' SSDs?


Everything through 2TB is soldered to the logic board; 4TB and 8TB options split between soldered and socketed NVMe drives, with the T2 chip combining them into one logical volume.


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## wayne_rowley (Feb 27, 2021)

The only Mac with upgradable SSD in Apple’s current range is the current 2019 Mac Pro.

As Rick says, Apple SSDs are the barebones memory chips only - the controller is the T2 chip (on Intel Macs, the system chip on the Apple Silicon ones).


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## Vik (Feb 27, 2021)

Thanks for the replies! Since new Macs, and possibly new iMacs may be announced as early as mid-March, I’m also looking for older iMacs (2018/2019) as an interim solution until ARM Macs which allow at least 128 gb RAM arrive. 
I know some users have replaced the internal drives on these 2018/19 Macs but I guess they’ll get low performance in these if they only offer SATA connectivity.


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## wayne_rowley (Feb 27, 2021)

Vik said:


> I know some users have replaced the internal drives on these 2018/19 Macs but I guess they’ll get low performance in these if they only offer SATA connectivity.


That was possible with the 2019 and older iMacs as they supported or used fusion drives, which included a SATA hard drive. The 2020 onward are SSD only and no longer support SATA.


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## kgdrum (Feb 27, 2021)

Vik said:


> Thanks for the replies! Since new Macs, and possibly new iMacs may be announced as early as mid-March, I’m also looking for older iMacs (2018/2019) as an interim solution until ARM Macs which allow at least 128 gb RAM arrive.
> I know some users have replaced the internal drives on these 2018/19 Macs but I guess they’ll get low performance in these if they only offer SATA connectivity.


Have you looked at OWC? They might not be the cheapest place to buy but I trust them as far as testing and standing behind anything they sell.IMO they also have one of the best tech support teams in existence.









Used and Refurbished Apple iMac and iMac Pro Desktops


Configure your own refurbished iMac or iMac Pro with a variety upgrade options from OWC. All iMacs are tested and inspected by Apple Certified Technicians.




eshop.macsales.com


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## rnb_2 (Feb 27, 2021)

Vik said:


> Thanks for the replies! Since new Macs, and possibly new iMacs may be announced as early as mid-March, I’m also looking for older iMacs (2018/2019) as an interim solution until ARM Macs which allow at least 128 gb RAM arrive.
> I know some users have replaced the internal drives on these 2018/19 Macs but I guess they’ll get low performance in these if they only offer SATA connectivity.


This is an option, but be aware that you'll probably end up trading performance for storage space the further back you go. The 2020 iMacs were the first to get i5 processors with hyperthreading, which usually results in about 20% performance boost vs. similar chips without. So a 2019 i5 iMac with a 3GHz i5 is quite a bit slower than a 2020 i5 with a 3.1GHz i5.

If you're looking for something that would work well for a couple years without breaking the bank, I'd start at the 2020 3.3GHz i5 27" - it comes with a base 512GB SSD, you can add your own RAM, and most retailers seem to be discounting $150 from Apple's price ($1849 vs $1999). It will be a bit faster than an i7 Mac mini and has a much better GPU that won't have issues running at 5k. The base 27" 3.1GHz i5 would also work if you could deal with a 256GB internal drive - it's not upgradeable on that config, unfortunately, but you can find it for $1649 via AppleInsider's price guide.


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## Vik (Feb 27, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> It will be a bit faster than an i7 Mac mini and has a much better GPU that won't have issues running at 5k


Thanks, rnb – I'll look up the Geekbench database. If it's only a bit faster than the current fastest mini, I might as well go for the mini. And regarding the GPU – is that really something I should be concerned about when I'm not editing video/images ('m not even particularly eager about getting a 4k or 5k monitor, I want the iMac only because it's faster than the mini, and because that means that I could keep it until the M2 mini (or Mac Pro midi) is out.


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## Vik (Feb 27, 2021)

I just found that these are the best _single core_ results for non-M1 Macs on Geekbench (the M1s are faster):


iMac (27-inch Retina Mid 2020)
Intel Core i7-10700K @ 3.8 GHz (8 cores)1251
iMac (27-inch Retina Mid 2020)
Intel Core i9-10910 @ 3.6 GHz (10 cores)1247
iMac (27-inch Retina Early 2019)
Intel Core i9-9900K @ 3.6 GHz (8 cores)1237
MacBook Pro (13-inch Mid 2020)
Intel Core i7-1068NG7 @ 2.3 GHz (4 cores)1237
iMac (27-inch Retina Mid 2020)
Intel Core i5-10600 @ 3.3 GHz (6 cores)1177
MacBook Pro (13-inch Mid 2020)
Intel Core i5-1038NG7 @ 2.0 GHz (4 cores)1144
iMac (27-inch Retina Early 2019)
Intel Core i5-9600K @ 3.7 GHz (6 cores)1136

Are you sure that lack of hypertrheading is an important limitation?

Here are, btw, the M1-results:



Mac mini (Late 2020)
Apple M1 @ 3.2 GHz (8 cores)1709
MacBook Pro (13-inch Late 2020)
Apple M1 @ 3.2 GHz (8 cores)1700
MacBook Air (Late 2020)
Apple M1 @ 3.2 GHz (8 cores)1699

And here are the multi-core results:



Mac Pro (Late 2019)
Intel Xeon W-3275M @ 2.5 GHz (28 cores)19162
Mac Pro (Late 2019)
Intel Xeon W-3265M @ 2.7 GHz (24 cores)18115
Mac Pro (Late 2019)
Intel Xeon W-3245 @ 3.2 GHz (16 cores)14561
iMac Pro (Late 2017)
Intel Xeon W-2191B @ 2.3 GHz (18 cores)13359
Mac Pro (Late 2019)
Intel Xeon W-3235 @ 3.3 GHz (12 cores)11920
iMac Pro (Late 2017)
Intel Xeon W-2170B @ 2.5 GHz (14 cores)10831
iMac Pro (Late 2017)
Intel Xeon W-2150B @ 3.0 GHz (10 cores)9385
iMac (27-inch Retina Mid 2020)
Intel Core i9-10910 @ 3.6 GHz (10 cores)9011
iMac (27-inch Retina Early 2019)
Intel Core i9-9900K @ 3.6 GHz (8 cores)8274

The 2019 8-core iMac model is just below the 2020 10-core iMac. All the others are Mac Pros or iMac pros.

Btw, I can get this 5K Intel Core i9-9900K @ 3.6 GHz (8 cores) for $2300 now, with 64 gb RAM, but with a 500 gb _SATA_ SSD where the original Fusion drive was, and need to make a fast decision. Not easy.


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## rnb_2 (Feb 27, 2021)

Yeah, Intel has hit a bit of a wall on single core performance, so nothing is dramatically faster than anything else from the last few years. The 2019 i9 iMac is basically the 2020 i7, but possibly with worse cooling because it still has the open space for the 3.5" HDD.

Geekbench shows the 3.3GHz iMac as just over 10% faster than the i7 mini in multi-core. To get dramatically better performance than the i7 mini, you'd have to go to the i7/i9 iMacs (which are $2149/$2299 best base price). I guess my feeling is that, once you've crossed that $2k line, it starts to feel less like a "tide me over until Apple Silicon settles down" choice.

If you aren't planning to run a 4k display, the mini is still a good choice. A 4k display at default resolution will show the same amount on-screen as an HD (1920x1080) display, just sharper, and if you go to a non-standard resolution, the mini's GPU can't keep up. For this reason, I think that a 2k (2560x1440 or possibly 3440x1440 ultra-wide) display is the best option for a Mac mini without an eGPU - the integrated GPU won't struggle with it, and it will show more tracks, and more of each track, than an HD or 4k display at default resolution.

EDIT - I actually missed the bit at the end regarding the 2019 i9 that's available - that's a decent config for the price, of course, and I wouldn't be concerned too much about the SATA SSD. For a system drive, it's fine. You might want something faster for your external samples drive, like a multi-SSD SATA RAID or a single NVMe drive, but for the OS, SATA is fine.


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## Vik (Feb 28, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> The 2020 iMacs were the first to get i5 processors with hyperthreading


I just found that this 2019 iMac...


> ...supports Turbo Boost, which "automatically increases the speed of the active cores" to improve performance when needed (up to 5.0 GHz for this model) -- and "Hyper Threading" -- which allows the system to recognize sixteen total "cores" or "threads" (eight real and eight virtual).


So maybe it's not that bad after all. It has a Serial ATA (up tp 600 mb/second) connector for a 3.5" hard drive and a PCI, but since the system report says that it has a SATA SSD drive, I guess it's connected to the SATA bus, and it's apparently a major hassle to replace drives in these Macs – one has to remove the screen etc.





__





iMac "Core i9" 3.6 27" (5K, 2019) Specs (Retina 5K, 27-Inch, 2019, BTO/CTO, iMac19,1, A2115, 3194): EveryMac.com


Technical specifications for the iMac "Core i9" 3.6 27" (5K, 2019). Dates sold, processor type, memory info, hard drive details, price and more.




everymac.com





My 12-core is 2,66 Hhz – so the the single core performance is 477, and the multi core performance is 5177.
The 2018 mini gets 1099 single core/5459 multi core in Geekbench 5, while this 2019 iMac gets 1237/8274, so it's a bit better. The M1 mini gets 1709/7400.


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## rnb_2 (Feb 28, 2021)

Yes, it's only the previous desktop i5s that didn't have hyperthreading - only the i7/i9 lines had it previous to 2020 (and the desktop i3 had neither hyperthreading or Turbo Boost). The 2019/2020 i7/i9 iMacs are the only non-Xeons that are faster multi-core than the M1s, and nothing comes close to the M1s for single core.


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## Vik (Mar 16, 2021)

Here's some stuff I came across about M1 vs M1X:






Apple M1X vs. Apple M1 - Benchmark, Test and Specs


Apple M1X vs. Apple M1 - Benchmark, Geekbench 5, Cinebench R20, Cinebench R23, Cinebench R15 and FP32 iGPU (GFLOPS) benchmark results




www.cpu-monkey.com






The multi performance should be almost twice as good, and the M1X supports 32 gb of memory – if this info is correct. 

Have any of you heard any believable rumours about when the release of an ARM based iMac will happen?


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## SupremeFist (Mar 17, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> If you aren't planning to run a 4k display, the mini is still a good choice. A 4k display at default resolution will show the same amount on-screen as an HD (1920x1080) display, just sharper, and if you go to a non-standard resolution, the mini's GPU can't keep up.


It runs 4k native perfectly fine too. Just the scaled resolutions in between cause a CPU hit...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 17, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> If you aren't planning to run a 4k display, the mini is still a good choice. A 4k display at default resolution will show the same amount on-screen as an HD (1920x1080) display, just sharper, and if you go to a non-standard resolution, the mini's GPU can't keep up. For this reason, I think that a 2k (2560x1440 or possibly 3440x1440 ultra-wide) display is the best option for a Mac mini without an eGPU - the integrated GPU won't struggle with it, and it will show more tracks, and more of each track, than an HD or 4k display at default resolution.



I just saw this and am confused about what you're saying.

On my machine - not an M1, a 5,1 with a Radeon RX560 - the default resolution on my 32" 4K monitor is... 4K: 3840 x 2160. That makes the dot pitch too small for me, so I run it at 3200 x 1800.

Is the default resolution of a 4K display on the M1 Mini only 1080p? That would be weird.

And while HiDPI (which fills in the extra pixels on a 4K display at lower resolutions to make things clearer) might use more processing, I have a hard time believing that scaling the picture down from 4K is much of a load for a modern graphics chip. Is it?

This is an academic question, because HiDPI is great - you can zoom in (Control - slide the mouse) and it's still sharp.


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## dcoscina (Mar 17, 2021)

I bought a MP 6,1 a couple years ago (actually my wife got it for my 50th birthday). This was still a while before the new Pros showed up and I didn't want to buy an iMac (still don't like the CPU and monitor being all-in-one). However, given that the 6,1 is rather dated, once Apple decides to stop supporting it (tho, they should look at the last date it was manufactured, not its inception date), I would probably jump to a Mac Mini and use the MP 6,1 as the sample slave. Tho, by then, we might see Mac Mini Pros with the ability to have more RAM. That's the only issue I have with the current lot.


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## SupremeFist (Mar 17, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Is the default resolution of a 4K display on the M1 Mini only 1080p? That would be weird.


It is on the Intel mini, but like I say you can also run full 4k with no problem. The issue with scaling is that the GPU first has to compute 2x (or 4x?) the target resolution before downsampling it to pump to the 4k monitor. The Intel mini can do this fine for normal everyday use but you will notice the CPU cost (it's an integrated, not discrete GPU) if you're already stressing it with DAW creation.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 17, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> It is on the Intel mini, but like I say you can also run full 4k with no problem. The issue with scaling is that the GPU first has to compute 2x (or 4x?) the target resolution before downsampling it to pump to the 4k monitor. The Intel mini can do this fine for normal everyday use but you will notice the CPU cost (it's an integrated, not discrete GPU) if you're already stressing it with DAW creation.



The M1 Mini has an 8-core GPU, so I'm guessing that's not an issue with it?


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## samphony (Mar 17, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> I bought a MP 6,1 a couple years ago (actually my wife got it for my 50th birthday). This was still a while before the new Pros showed up and I didn't want to buy an iMac (still don't like the CPU and monitor being all-in-one). However, given that the 6,1 is rather dated, once Apple decides to stop supporting it (tho, they should look at the last date it was manufactured, not its inception date), I would probably jump to a Mac Mini and use the MP 6,1 as the sample slave. Tho, by then, we might see Mac Mini Pros with the ability to have more RAM. That's the only issue I have with the current lot.


If you run two or multiple m1 minis or an air and mini together that makes a really powerful server system already.


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## rnb_2 (Mar 17, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I just saw this and am confused about what you're saying.
> 
> On my machine - not an M1, a 5,1 with a Radeon RX560 - the default resolution on my 32" 4K monitor is... 4K: 3840 x 2160. That makes the dot pitch too small for me, so I run it at 3200 x 1800.
> 
> ...


This gets complicated, so I'll see if I can explain it properly.

When desktop Macs that support Retina are paired with a 4k+ display (and I don't know if any graphics cards in a cheesegrater or trashcan support Retina - I don't think so, but please correct me if I'm wrong), Displays Preferences will offer a variety of resolution options, usually five, from "Larger Text" to "More Space". This usually defaults to simulating a display with ¼ the actual pixels that the high-res display has - for a 4k display, this would be simulating 1080p, but with 4x the number of pixels, so everything will appear sharper (the OS uses higher resolution assets for everything, so 4x larger icons, etc). This isn't the OS telling the display to emulate a lower resolution (as I assume you're doing with your 5,1), this is the OS using all of the pixels the display offers, but making everything more detailed.

Where it gets tricky is if you select a resolution that isn't either the native resolution of the display, or ¼ resolution (default Retina). So, for example, I have a 4k 27" display that I used to use with my 2018 mini (w/eGPU) and now use with my M1 mini. I prefer to use the Retina simulation of 2560x1440 (same as a 5k iMac screen) rather than run at the default Retina resolution (which simulates 1920x1080, but sharper). In order to do this, the OS actually renders out a 5120x2880 Retina image off-screen (with all of the higher resolution assets), then scales it to 3840x2160 before sending it to the display. This real-time scaling is fine when it's done by the eGPU on the Intel mini or by the integrated GPU on the M1 mini, but it overtaxes the integrated GPU on the Intel mini (and also uses more shared RAM for the screen buffer, which is also true of the M1).

Basically, the integrated GPU on the Intel mini struggles when asked to render out 5k frames off-screen, then scale them to 4k for display, and do it 60 times per second. Full resolution 4k or default Retina on 4k doesn't involve this off-screen rendering and scaling, so it's fine with those.

Does that make sense?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 17, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> Does that make sense?


Yes. Thanks. 

For what it's worth, if I select Default for Display in the System Prefs, both of my displays (a computer monitor, the U32, plus a Samsung TV I run at 1080p/60 5 feet away from me) go to 3840 x res.

But I use SwitchResX to unlock all the resolutions, and as far as I know the RX560 is doing the work - on my main display and also the second one.


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## rnb_2 (Mar 17, 2021)

I had forgotten about SwitchResX and other similar tools that unlock the Retina resolutions. The RX560 will handle the offscreen scaling just fine.


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## macmac (Mar 22, 2021)

In thinking ahead for eventual move to an M1 or M1X:

Does anyone know if the M1 minis would still support the Apple 30" HD Cinema Display (with adapters of course)? Still love that monitor.

I also use an Akitio TB2 enclosure for my drives (with my i7 mini); is that usable with the M1?

That enclosure's drives handle ALL my data files and since Apple keeps changing things, I figure some things are best kept to the OS they use, like things in the User folder such as iTunes music library and photos, which will no longer be a compatible version to go back and forth between OS/machines. I would probably keep my current Mini as an extra computer running that OS with those hard drives.


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## rnb_2 (Mar 22, 2021)

macmac said:


> In thinking ahead for eventual move to an M1 or M1X:
> 
> Does anyone know if the M1 minis would still support the Apple 30" HD Cinema Display (with adapters of course)? Still love that monitor.
> 
> ...


This MacRumors thread shows what you need to get the 30" display to work via a USB-C port, and the Akitio enclosure should work fine with Apple's https://amazon.com/Apple-Thunderbolt-USB-C-Adapter/dp/B01MQ26QIY/ (Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 adapter).


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## macmac (Mar 22, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> This MacRumors thread shows what you need to get the 30" display to work via a USB-C port, and the Akitio enclosure should work fine with Apple's https://amazon.com/Apple-Thunderbolt-USB-C-Adapter/dp/B01MQ26QIY/ (Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 adapter).


So it seems the 30" on an M1 mini will be the same as how I'm connecting it now to the i7 2018 mini, hopefully.


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## rnb_2 (Mar 22, 2021)

There shouldn't be any difference between the M1 and the i7 in how they support older devices over Thunderbolt (outside of eGPUs, which aren't supported on the M1 currently).


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## JDKasunic (May 21, 2021)

Hey there everyone. Apologies if this has been asked here already. I'm in the process of reading through this entire thread and a few others. 

I currently run my music rig on a 2010 Mac Pro. 4 hard drives, 96GB RAM. It's fine, but it's going to be time to replace it over the next year or two. I'd like to do so with an M1 Mac Mini whenever the 32GB option becomes available. My question is on hard drives for large orchestral templates. How do you handle/store your hard drives in a Mac Mini setup? It seems impossible to put our libraries on the one SSD drive that ships with it. We have GBs of data, and even with SSDs isn't it still recommended to spread out the libraries over a few of them?

I was planning on using VE Pro and using my 2010 Mac Pro (with the 4 hard drives) as a sample slave machine, and maybe just getting this current M1 Mac Mini 16GB RAM. But what are the other recommended hardware solutions for this? Or is the VE Pro way the only sensible way?


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## synthetic (May 22, 2021)

Whenever the next semi-pro macs come out, I'm thinking about getting some sort of Thunderbolt RAID for sample storage. I'm also wondering if it would be good enough for DAW recording AND sample storage at the same time. They're designed for 4k video editing so I don't see why not. I'm thinking something Thunderbolt 3 with 3-4 drives should be plenty fast enough for all that. Though I haven't seen anyone talk about doing this. Also, audio editing can actually be more taxing than video editing because video is usually grabbing big files for a while and audio editing is lots of small files, almost like a web server. So I'll probably start with one RAID for everything and then buy another data drive if I need to. 

Another thing about the M1 Macs that I recently read is that their storage is twice as fast as the *RAM* on older macs. This is why there has been all of that "RAM is obsolete" talk on the M1. Because your 2TB storage in the thing becomes "virtual RAM" that is actually faster (up to 20GB/S) than the DDR3 1333MHz RAM in a 2008 Mac Pro (10GB/S).


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## mscp (May 22, 2021)

jtnyc said:


> Anyone here using one of these? I’m currently looking to buy a new machine. I was leaning towards a 2020 iMac, but I’m not all that into the imac form and I’m not that sure about getting an Intel machine with this new generation of Macs becoming available. In a perfect world I would wait and see what is around the corner. The mini seems great except for the 16 gig ram limitation. My 2008 Mac Pro is dead and I need to get something. I just don’t feel good about my options. Get the 2020 iMac and I‘m buying an expensive rig that is the last Intel and apparently runs hot with people complaining about fan noise, revving etc. Get the new Mini and only have 16 gigs of ram. I currently only have 16 and really it’s not been that big an issue. I do run low sometimes, but I’m not running major orchestral templates. I was however planning on putting 64 gigs in my next machine. So I’m thinking of looking at this purchase maybe as a bridge. Something that I can run for a year or 2, then seeing what the the Apple silicon machines are offering. I’m super confused and keep changing my mind on which way to go. I’m even considering a 2018 mini cause I can at least throw 64 gigs of ram in it...
> 
> Anyone thoughts and experience with any of these machines is much appreciated
> 
> Thanks


How many tracks (Audio/Instrument tracks, FX [insert Proc/FX type] busses, ...) do you on average use? I had to sell mine because it was severely underpowered but only because I "pushed" it. Please provide more info about your current setup.


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## jtnyc (May 22, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> How many tracks (Audio/Instrument tracks, FX [insert Proc/FX type] busses, ...) do you on average use? I had to sell mine because it was severely underpowered but only because I "pushed" it. Please provide more info about your current setup.


I ended up getting a 2018 Mini with 64 gigs of ram. It’s working out great so far and will hold me just fine for now.

I don’t run huge orchestral templates, but I can run quite a few instances of Kontakt, Omnisphere, Trillian, Superior Drummer etc. The 2018 is performing great so far, so I’m pleased with my decision to skip the Apple Silicon chips for now. Im sure within a year or two there will be AS chips with 64 gigs of ram and other major enhancements.


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## mscp (May 22, 2021)

jtnyc said:


> I ended up getting a 2018 Mini with 64 gigs of ram. It’s working out great so far and will hold me just fine for now.
> 
> I don’t run huge orchestral templates, but I can run quite a few instances of Kontakt, Omnisphere, Trillian, Superior Drummer etc. The 2018 is performing great so far, so I’m pleased with my decision to skip the Apple Silicon chips for now. Im sure within a year or two there will be AS chips with 64 gigs of ram and other major enhancements.


is yours noisy on load? how do you circumvent it if so? just curious.


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## jtnyc (May 22, 2021)

Phil81 said:


> is yours noisy on load? how do you circumvent it if so? just curious.


I probably haven’t pushed it beyond 70%, but I haven't noticed any noise to speak of. It gets a bit toasty, but not enough to ramp up the fans.


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## Vik (May 23, 2021)

Here's a Geekbench comparison of iMacs with and without the M1 chip, which may illustrate the M1 Mini's performance as well, since it's based on the same M1 chip. Image source: https://appleinsider.com/articles/2...ch-imac-review-computing-power-for-the-masses.

The 27 and 21-inch Macs are Intel based.


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## samphony (May 27, 2021)

A little update from my end. I love the new m1 machines. Just finished 2 projects working under tight deadlines. As long as we are mainly riding in Rosetta land RAM is still an issue. 

So yes if you need to have all your orchestral libraries working in parallel none of the rosetta based sample players (Kontakt & SINE) can work with swap. 

I used freezing in logic or transform to audio in Studio One a lot. 

I’m eagerly awaiting WWDC


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## Alex Sopala (May 29, 2021)

synthetic said:


> Whenever the next semi-pro macs come out, I'm thinking about getting some sort of Thunderbolt RAID for sample storage. I'm also wondering if it would be good enough for DAW recording AND sample storage at the same time. They're designed for 4k video editing so I don't see why not. I'm thinking something Thunderbolt 3 with 3-4 drives should be plenty fast enough for all that. Though I haven't seen anyone talk about doing this. Also, audio editing can actually be more taxing than video editing because video is usually grabbing big files for a while and audio editing is lots of small files, almost like a web server. So I'll probably start with one RAID for everything and then buy another data drive if I need to.
> 
> Another thing about the M1 Macs that I recently read is that their storage is twice as fast as the *RAM* on older macs. This is why there has been all of that "RAM is obsolete" talk on the M1. Because your 2TB storage in the thing becomes "virtual RAM" that is actually faster (up to 20GB/S) than the DDR3 1333MHz RAM in a 2008 Mac Pro (10GB/S).


What I've done is make a NAS for this purpose, and hook up the server and my computer with 10gigabit ethernet. Thunderbolt file transfer is 40gigabit, but that's faster than even the fastest M.2 SSDs (at PCIE 4.0, no less), and real world numbers don't tend to look like that either.

You could use it for both DAW recording and sample storage, but I'd recommend using SSDs for that purpose. I believe FreeNAS (now called TrueNAS, but still free) has a good implementation of using SSDs as a read/write cache that I've seen people edit off of, and using traditional mechanical hard drives for archiving stuff. My understanding is that it would switch files between the two automatically as you use them. Can do similar things with RAM, I believe.

For me though, my samples are all stored on SSDs that are connected to the computer directly, apart from the NAS. Because with a few exceptions the programs let you redownload samples if something goes badly, I don't care about redundancy. Companies' libraries that don't let you do that so easy (like IKMultimedia) I'll copy into the NAS just in case.

Also, I'd believe that about the storage, considering it's been 13 years, but I don't think RAM is obsolete. Especially not now that DDR5 is coming out with speeds up to 6400MHz (which impacts performance less that you'd think, but with whatever they're doing with ARM, I'm sure Apple is keeping a really close eye on it).


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## aeliron (Feb 18, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Yes. Thanks.
> 
> For what it's worth, if I select Default for Display in the System Prefs, both of my displays (a computer monitor, the U32, plus a Samsung TV I run at 1080p/60 5 feet away from me) go to 3840 x res.


BTW, just got a U32, found these setting recommendations (see Setup and Calibration section): https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/samsung-ur59c-4k-curved-32-inch-monitor,6265.html


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