# LOTR Rings of Power - Soundtrack Discussion Thread



## Loerpert

So it seems to be confirmed


----------



## Marcus Millfield

His score of the LOTR trilogy is still one of my all time favorites. Very pleased he's also scoring the series!


----------



## jononotbono

So happy about this! Actually can't wait to watch it and to have Howard Shore score it, that's everything!


----------



## CT

Apparently that comment by Amazon was removed, at least I can't see it now. So either they shouldn't have said anything yet, or someone got things wrong. I'm not getting my hopes up yet.

In any case, I did think the last couple chords of that trailer piece do seem to have been written by someone who at least knows how to voice/orchestrate in the right way for this world, heh.


----------



## Pyro861

Certainly sounds like Howard Shore to me 

edit: hold on it's not?


----------



## CT

I'd definitely believe that it's him... with some trailer music stuff superimposed. Guess we'll see.


----------



## TonalDynamics

*WARNING: Passionate opinions ahead*

I'll be honest, I'm frankly _terrified_ about Amazon turning LOTR into another 'big brand' franchise and making it go the same route as Star Wars.

At the end of the day nothing is sacred to these people but money (cliche artist perspective but has never ringed truer than now)

And it seems they have _NO_ new ideas to speak of... to the extent that they literally can not resist buying every beloved franchise and milking it all the way to the morgue.

So if big money bungled the new SW trilogy, which is nowhere close to Tolkien in terms of the lore and world-building contained within the legendarium, then it's safe to say my confidence in _anyone's_ (not just amazon) ability to do justice with the material is at an all-time low.

Star Wars was like the inverse of Dr. Strange's vision from Infinity War when he peered into the future with the timestone: There were 1 million positive directions they could have taken that story arc and only one way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and ruin it all, and Disney chose the latter.

*Money does not make masterpieces, passion and vision do.*

The main concern here obviously, is that there is actual _writing_ going on (adding/modifying stuff that already exists, without the author's consent) with this project that Tolkien isn't involved in for certain reasons, the fact that he is quite dead being foremost among them.

Modded Skyrim is cool. Modded Tolkien legendarium? Brash, presumptuous and terrifying.

Don't forget we are talking about a man who writers have tried to imitate for the better part of a century, and those who have 'tried' have all failed to show the same deftness in handling the high fantasy genre with anything resembling the good taste and skill with which JRRT handled Middle Earth (sorry George)

Frankly this whole thing is just a _bad_ idea from many perspectives:

Remember, Jackson was bringing the actual literature to life, using the epics themselves as his guide, performed BRILLIANTLY as director (idc what any fans say, P.J. did about as well as any human could possibly have been expected to perform as a steward of such a monumental undertaking), and he still _barely_ survived the onslaught of true Tolkien fans.

The distinction here is that Amazon (and the people they have hired for this project) #1 think they are capable of, and #2 have the audacity to attempt writing in JRRT's _place _ - let that sink in for a moment.

They've paid the money (all $250,000,000 worth). They have the _legal_ right - our curious definition of 'intellectual property' being what it is. Does this give them the ethical right to step into the mythical shoes of the author and potentially trample his beautiful creation? As an author myself, I'd have to say no. I only hope I get miraculously proven wrong.

I say 'miraculously' because it would take nothing short of a miracle to pull it off (Jackson's effort was also a cinematic miracle, for many reasons, not least of which was securing funding tied to a relatively unknown director), since the only way this works is if they're as good at writing LOTR as Tolkien.

Think about it, nothing short of that will be acceptable, that's how pristine his universe was, and even if some people like the series - if it's not _Tolkien_, but some radical shift away from the tone of his world - you get burned at the stake by the fans, and rightly so for demeaning the good name of the single most important work of fantasy of all time, and for presuming that you had the artistic 'right' even though you had the legal one... it's almost as if they're begging to be hated by the fans for doing this.

No pressure, eh?

*Here's an excerpt from Indiewire on the two frontrunners selected to be the stewards of this new story:*

_"In July 2018, it was announced that writing duo JD Payne and Patrick McKay would develop “The Lord of the Rings” for Amazon, serving as the series’ executive producers and showrunners. While it was a big move forward in terms of the series’ development, this particular news was a shock, especially because of the scale of the series. Prior to the news, Payne and McKay’s IMDB pages were empty, save for their uncredited writing job on “Star Trek Beyond.” But Star Trek” producer J.J. Abrams was reportedly one of a number of high-profile producers who recommended Payne and McKay for the position.

Since then, Payne and McKay have also written the screenplay for “Untitled Star Trek Sequel,” as well as an earlier draft of the “Flash Gordon” feature film, and the upcoming “Jungle Cruise” film starring Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson. To the casual or super fan observer, there is still nothing visibly tangible under the duo’s belts. But they have written plenty of unproduced screenplays and have been writing together since their high school debate club days in 1997. While fans may not know Payne and McKay yet, people in the industry do—and Amazon found their work strong enough to be put in charge of such a major property."_

Not exactly confidence inspiring that the writers are also unknown - although far from damning by itself.

But hey, at least the music will be good!


----------



## Jett Hitt

TonalDynamics said:


> *WARNING: Passionate opinions ahead*
> 
> 
> Remember, Jackson was bringing the actual literature to life, using the epics themselves as his guide, had the author's personal blessing, performed BRILLIANTLY as director (idc what any fans say, P.J. did about as well as any human could possibly have been expected to perform as a steward of such a monumental undertaking), and he still _barely_ survived the onslaught of true Tolkien fans.


Had the author's personal blessing? What? Tolkien died in 1973 when Jackson was 12. And did you see The Hobbit? Did you read the book? I am guessing not, or you wouldn't be espousing Jackson's virtues. That was Hollywood money grubbing at its worst.


----------



## TonalDynamics

Jett Hitt said:


> Had the author's personal blessing? What? Tolkien died in 1973 when Jackson was 12. And did you see The Hobbit? Did you read the book? I am guessing not, or you wouldn't be espousing Jackson's virtues. That was Hollywood money grubbing at its worst.


My apologies, I thought I had read that about PJ but it was actually Christopher Lee who had met him, I got that muddled from memory - correction made.

But yes, what he accomplished with LOTR was a monumental cinematic achievement, all things considered.

No movies, least of all something this ambitious are _ever _going to be as comprehensive as the work upon which they are adapted - but the LOTR trilogy maintains the tone and character of the universe about as well as anyone could have managed (who was not also the author himself)

Our dismissal of it now as something that was inevitable but nowhere near as good as it should have been is pure hindsight bias.

You are free to disagree, of course.

And yes I'll grant you, the Hobbit was a far cry from rings trilogy in terms of quality.

Cheers


----------



## Consona

TonalDynamics said:


> I'll be honest, I'm frankly _terrified_ about Amazon turning LOTR into another 'big brand' franchise


Quite frankly, based on the snippets I've read about this project, there's a very slim chance it will be any good.


----------



## Jett Hitt

TonalDynamics said:


> You are free to disagree, of course.
> 
> And yes I'll grant you, the Hobbit was a far cry from rings trilogy in terms of quality.
> 
> Cheers


Oh, I am with you on LOTR. I thought that it was absolutely amazing, but The Hobbit erased a lot of my goodwill for Jackson.


----------



## osum

Jett Hitt said:


> Oh, I am with you on LOTR. I thought that it was absolutely amazing, but The Hobbit erased a lot of my goodwill for Jackson.


To be fair it wasn't really Jackson's fault if you dig a bit into the story. He wasn't suppost to direct those movies but he had to jump into because Del Toro left and there was almost no pre-production made whereas with LOTR he had years of pre-production.

As for the Amazon series: I have a really bad feeling about it, I can't put my finger exactly on it but I fear they will butcher it like Netflix did with The Witcher. I'm happy to be proven wrong of course.


----------



## Germain B

TonalDynamics said:


> Not exactly confidence inspiring that the writers are also unknown


I would actually place my optimism on that point.


----------



## TonalDynamics

Germain B said:


> I would actually place my optimism on that point.


Indeed, every great writer is unknown at some point!


----------



## CT

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Howard Shore doing Rings of Power?
> 
> Thank God 😅. Best entertainment news in a long time.


If he ultimately isn't involved to some extent, and they don't get the other qualified composer in his place (Michaelt), it will be a very hard sell for me.


----------



## Zhao Shen

Jett Hitt said:


> Oh, I am with you on LOTR. I thought that it was absolutely amazing, but The Hobbit erased a lot of my goodwill for Jackson.


Highly recommend watching this video - it gives a really good sense of why the Hobbit ended up the way it did. Especially the part covering how Jackson was literally on set with no storyboards, telling the cast/crew to go for a lunch break just so he could wing it, spending that hour figuring out how the scenes should go... Sounds absolutely exhausting and I'm really impressed that they didn't turn out even worse.


----------



## Orchestrata

TonalDynamics said:


> *WARNING: Passionate opinions ahead*
> 
> I'll be honest, I'm frankly _terrified_ about Amazon turning LOTR into another 'big brand' franchise and making it go the same route as Star Wars.
> 
> At the end of the day nothing is sacred to these people but money (cliche artist perspective but has never ringed truer than now)
> 
> And it seems they have _NO_ new ideas to speak of... to the extent that they literally can not resist buying every beloved franchise and milking it all the way to the morgue.
> 
> So if big money bungled the new SW trilogy, which is nowhere close to Tolkien in terms of the lore and world-building contained within the legendarium, then it's safe to say my confidence in _anyone's_ (not just amazon) ability to do justice with the material is at an all-time low.
> 
> Star Wars was like the inverse of Dr. Strange's vision from Infinity War when he peered into the future with the timestone: There were 1 million positive directions they could have taken that story arc and only one way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and ruin it all, and Disney chose the latter.
> 
> *Money does not make masterpieces, passion and vision do.*
> 
> The main concern here obviously, is that there is actual _writing_ going on (adding/modifying stuff that already exists, without the author's consent) with this project that Tolkien isn't involved in for certain reasons, the fact that he is quite dead being foremost among them.
> 
> Modded Skyrim is cool. Modded Tolkien legendarium? Brash, presumptuous and terrifying.
> 
> Don't forget we are talking about a man who writers have tried to imitate for the better part of a century, and those who have 'tried' have all failed to show the same deftness in handling the high fantasy genre with anything resembling the good taste and skill with which JRRT handled Middle Earth (sorry George)
> 
> Frankly this whole thing is just a _bad_ idea from many perspectives:
> 
> Remember, Jackson was bringing the actual literature to life, using the epics themselves as his guide, performed BRILLIANTLY as director (idc what any fans say, P.J. did about as well as any human could possibly have been expected to perform as a steward of such a monumental undertaking), and he still _barely_ survived the onslaught of true Tolkien fans.
> 
> The distinction here is that Amazon (and the people they have hired for this project) #1 think they are capable of, and #2 have the audacity to attempt writing in JRRT's _place _ - let that sink in for a moment.
> 
> They've paid the money (all $250,000,000 worth). They have the _legal_ right - our curious definition of 'intellectual property' being what it is. Does this give them the ethical right to step into the mythical shoes of the author and potentially trample his beautiful creation? As an author myself, I'd have to say no. I only hope I get miraculously proven wrong.
> 
> I say 'miraculously' because it would take nothing short of a miracle to pull it off (Jackson's effort was also a cinematic miracle, for many reasons, not least of which was securing funding tied to a relatively unknown director), since the only way this works is if they're as good at writing LOTR as Tolkien.
> 
> Think about it, nothing short of that will be acceptable, that's how pristine his universe was, and even if some people like the series - if it's not _Tolkien_, but some radical shift away from the tone of his world - you get burned at the stake by the fans, and rightly so for demeaning the good name of the single most important work of fantasy of all time, and for presuming that you had the artistic 'right' even though you had the legal one... it's almost as if they're begging to be hated by the fans for doing this.
> 
> No pressure, eh?
> 
> *Here's an excerpt from Indiewire on the two frontrunners selected to be the stewards of this new story:*
> 
> _"In July 2018, it was announced that writing duo JD Payne and Patrick McKay would develop “The Lord of the Rings” for Amazon, serving as the series’ executive producers and showrunners. While it was a big move forward in terms of the series’ development, this particular news was a shock, especially because of the scale of the series. Prior to the news, Payne and McKay’s IMDB pages were empty, save for their uncredited writing job on “Star Trek Beyond.” But Star Trek” producer J.J. Abrams was reportedly one of a number of high-profile producers who recommended Payne and McKay for the position.
> 
> Since then, Payne and McKay have also written the screenplay for “Untitled Star Trek Sequel,” as well as an earlier draft of the “Flash Gordon” feature film, and the upcoming “Jungle Cruise” film starring Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson. To the casual or super fan observer, there is still nothing visibly tangible under the duo’s belts. But they have written plenty of unproduced screenplays and have been writing together since their high school debate club days in 1997. While fans may not know Payne and McKay yet, people in the industry do—and Amazon found their work strong enough to be put in charge of such a major property."_
> 
> Not exactly confidence inspiring that the writers are also unknown - although far from damning by itself.
> 
> But hey, at least the music will be good!


As far as I know they're primarily drawing from The Silmarillion, and therefore not entirely writing in Tolkien's place (though they'll by necessity be filling in a lot of detail, granted). I'm deeply skeptical about the whole venture, but I was skeptical when they announced an obscure maker of comedy horrors was going to helm the original trilogy, so who knows. Happy that (if?) Shore is back, regardless.


----------



## Leo Brennauer

TonalDynamics said:


> *WARNING: Passionate opinions ahead*
> 
> I'll be honest, I'm frankly _terrified_ about Amazon turning LOTR into another 'big brand' franchise and making it go the same route as Star Wars.
> 
> At the end of the day nothing is sacred to these people but money (cliche artist perspective but has never ringed truer than now)
> 
> And it seems they have _NO_ new ideas to speak of... to the extent that they literally can not resist buying every beloved franchise and milking it all the way to the morgue.
> 
> So if big money bungled the new SW trilogy, which is nowhere close to Tolkien in terms of the lore and world-building contained within the legendarium, then it's safe to say my confidence in _anyone's_ (not just amazon) ability to do justice with the material is at an all-time low.
> 
> Star Wars was like the inverse of Dr. Strange's vision from Infinity War when he peered into the future with the timestone: There were 1 million positive directions they could have taken that story arc and only one way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and ruin it all, and Disney chose the latter.
> 
> *Money does not make masterpieces, passion and vision do.*
> 
> The main concern here obviously, is that there is actual _writing_ going on (adding/modifying stuff that already exists, without the author's consent) with this project that Tolkien isn't involved in for certain reasons, the fact that he is quite dead being foremost among them.
> 
> Modded Skyrim is cool. Modded Tolkien legendarium? Brash, presumptuous and terrifying.
> 
> Don't forget we are talking about a man who writers have tried to imitate for the better part of a century, and those who have 'tried' have all failed to show the same deftness in handling the high fantasy genre with anything resembling the good taste and skill with which JRRT handled Middle Earth (sorry George)
> 
> Frankly this whole thing is just a _bad_ idea from many perspectives:
> 
> Remember, Jackson was bringing the actual literature to life, using the epics themselves as his guide, performed BRILLIANTLY as director (idc what any fans say, P.J. did about as well as any human could possibly have been expected to perform as a steward of such a monumental undertaking), and he still _barely_ survived the onslaught of true Tolkien fans.
> 
> The distinction here is that Amazon (and the people they have hired for this project) #1 think they are capable of, and #2 have the audacity to attempt writing in JRRT's _place _ - let that sink in for a moment.
> 
> They've paid the money (all $250,000,000 worth). They have the _legal_ right - our curious definition of 'intellectual property' being what it is. Does this give them the ethical right to step into the mythical shoes of the author and potentially trample his beautiful creation? As an author myself, I'd have to say no. I only hope I get miraculously proven wrong.
> 
> I say 'miraculously' because it would take nothing short of a miracle to pull it off (Jackson's effort was also a cinematic miracle, for many reasons, not least of which was securing funding tied to a relatively unknown director), since the only way this works is if they're as good at writing LOTR as Tolkien.
> 
> Think about it, nothing short of that will be acceptable, that's how pristine his universe was, and even if some people like the series - if it's not _Tolkien_, but some radical shift away from the tone of his world - you get burned at the stake by the fans, and rightly so for demeaning the good name of the single most important work of fantasy of all time, and for presuming that you had the artistic 'right' even though you had the legal one... it's almost as if they're begging to be hated by the fans for doing this.
> 
> No pressure, eh?
> 
> *Here's an excerpt from Indiewire on the two frontrunners selected to be the stewards of this new story:*
> 
> _"In July 2018, it was announced that writing duo JD Payne and Patrick McKay would develop “The Lord of the Rings” for Amazon, serving as the series’ executive producers and showrunners. While it was a big move forward in terms of the series’ development, this particular news was a shock, especially because of the scale of the series. Prior to the news, Payne and McKay’s IMDB pages were empty, save for their uncredited writing job on “Star Trek Beyond.” But Star Trek” producer J.J. Abrams was reportedly one of a number of high-profile producers who recommended Payne and McKay for the position.
> 
> Since then, Payne and McKay have also written the screenplay for “Untitled Star Trek Sequel,” as well as an earlier draft of the “Flash Gordon” feature film, and the upcoming “Jungle Cruise” film starring Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson. To the casual or super fan observer, there is still nothing visibly tangible under the duo’s belts. But they have written plenty of unproduced screenplays and have been writing together since their high school debate club days in 1997. While fans may not know Payne and McKay yet, people in the industry do—and Amazon found their work strong enough to be put in charge of such a major property."_
> 
> Not exactly confidence inspiring that the writers are also unknown - although far from damning by itself.
> 
> But hey, at least the music will be good!


I think we should still let them try doing their best and not talk it bad even before it launches. I will always stick to the trilogy over many other movies, but are thoose other movies hurting the homey, nostalgic feelings I have for LOTR? No. Plus there are so many great and REAL people involved in those projects that I thinks it’s unfaire to give them bad credit even before anything releases.

About not having new ideas to spike of: I think what Denis Villeneuve and @Rctec did with Dune was unique and does not deserve to be simply labeled as "no new ideas". I’m looking forward to the new series and if I get disappointed, so be it, I will return watching the trilogy. Will I be angry? No. Will I watch the series biased with bad reviews? No. I'll let myself be surprised, because I think that's the least you should do to a team of real people who have been working on something for years.


----------



## ptram

I don't particularly like the movies (I only got the second one in Blu Ray, because I’m totally in love for one of the actresses), but find the score one of the best pieces of absolute music ever. A perfect recreation of the epoch's mood (in this case, very Arts & Craft and Liberty). As usual with Shore.

Paolo


----------



## TonalDynamics

Leo Brennauer said:


> I think we should still let them try doing their best and not talk it bad even before it launches. I will always stick to the trilogy over many other movies, but are thoose other movies hurting the homey, nostalgic feelings I have for LOTR? No. Plus there are so many great and REAL people involved in those projects that I thinks it’s unfaire to give them bad credit even before anything releases.


Oh absolutely I'm not trashing the crew or the BTLs involved with the project, many of those are just craftspeople who are very good at their jobs and this is their new gig, I don't think I ever gave the impression that I was referring to 'all' the good people involved.

The writers, directors and the studios are a different matter, however - It's their idea, their intent, their interpretation and their signature on the outcome, and they'll be no less responsible for the result than you and I are responsible for our musical compositions.

Then again we aren't trying to write *"Scheherazade 2.0: Rimsky-Korsakov REDUX"*... but if we _were_, I think it would go without saying that most people that were 'in the know' would not be surprised at all to see us fail to meet such lofty expectations, and that's just a 45 minute or so symphony compared to however many countless hours it takes to read the silmarillion/rings.



Leo Brennauer said:


> About not having new ideas to spike of: I think what Denis Villeneuve and @Rctec did with Dune was unique and does not deserve to be simply labeled as "no new ideas".


I'm with ya there, and I'm all for bringing great works of literature to film (I must say with great shame that I've still yet to watch DUNE, going to try to remedy that tomorrow night), but to be perfectly clear, the tragedy as I see it _isn't _the remakes themselves, it's the fact that studios are more fearful than ever to do anything OTHER than remakes/big-brand sequels.

I don't believe that great art necessarily comes only from great suffering, but I _do_ believe that with great rewards come great risks at some point in the process.

The endless remake/franchise/branding/sequel syndrome is their attempt to eliminate risk, which isn't possible with real art because it's bold and daring and says something outside the box (risk is _inherent_ to the creative process), and so their work ends up being superficial, or a brazen facsimile of something that came before, which fails to defy convention and subsequently falls flat.


Leo Brennauer said:


> I'll let myself be surprised, because I think that's the least you should do to a team of real people who have been working on something for years.


I'm with ya here as well, I will certainly watch (at least the first couple episodes) _hoping_ to be pleasantly surprised... but with an undertaking as monumental as this one, I feel like a (healthy) degree of skepticism is the right approach.

Hope that clarifies my take on it 

Cheers


----------



## Leo Brennauer

TonalDynamics said:


> Oh absolutely I'm not trashing the crew or the BTLs involved with the project, many of those are just craftspeople who are very good at their jobs and this is their new gig, I don't think I ever gave the impression that I was referring to 'all' the good people involved.
> 
> The writers, directors and the studios are a different matter, however - It's their idea, their intent, their interpretation and their signature on the outcome, and they'll be no less responsible for the result than you and I are responsible for our musical compositions.
> 
> Then again we aren't trying to write *"Scheherazade 2.0: Rimsky-Korsakov REDUX"*... but if we _were_, I think it would go without saying that most people that were 'in the know' would not be surprised at all to see us fail to meet such lofty expectations, and that's just a 45 minute or so symphony compared to however many countless hours it takes to read the silmarillion/rings.
> 
> 
> I'm with ya there, and I'm all for bringing great works of literature to film (I must say with great shame that I've still yet to watch DUNE, going to try to remedy that tomorrow night), but to be perfectly clear, the tragedy as I see it _isn't _the remakes themselves, it's the fact that studios are more fearful than ever to do anything OTHER than remakes/big-brand sequels.
> 
> I don't believe that great art necessarily comes only from great suffering, but I _do_ believe that with great rewards come great risks at some point in the process.
> 
> The endless remake/franchise/branding/sequel syndrome is their attempt to eliminate risk, which isn't possible with real art because it's bold and daring and says something outside the box (risk is _inherent_ to the creative process), and so their work ends up being superficial, or a brazen facsimile of something that came before, which fails to defy convention and subsequently falls flat.
> 
> I'm with ya here as well, I will certainly watch (at least the first couple episodes) _hoping_ to be pleasantly surprised... but with an undertaking as monumental as this one, I feel like a (healthy) degree of skepticism is the right approach.
> 
> Hope that clarifies my take on it
> 
> Cheers


Shure makes sense. Thanks for clarification!


----------



## Henning

If it's true that Howard Shore (and maybe in tandem with Bear McCreary) will be responsible for the score it gives me a lot of hope for the series. I also have recently watched the Wheel of Time adaptation. I had read the novels about 20 years ago and so I went to watch it quite objectively and found it very entertaining and well made. It felt like in the spirit of the novels though they changed some things here and there. But the novels were not perfect and sometimes a bit too meandering anyway. I'm sure it will be the same way with the Rings of Power. The Silmarillion and all the different parts and addendums here and there give a certain outline of the story before LOTR but it's much more diffuse and therefore more malleable. I am really looking forward to it as an entertaining in depth view of the second age and what new characters the producers create here to make it all come together. Let's see what they get out of this and judge then. Just my two cents...


----------



## rhizomusicosmos

Confirmed to be Shore for the main theme and McCreary for the general score:

Here is "Galadriel" by McCreary:


And "Sauron":


----------



## HarmonKard

Looks like Howard Shore pulled a John Williams 

Does anyone know if McCeary actually writes his own stuff, or is it more of a ghost writer thing going on?


----------



## CT

I'll gladly ghostwrite if so, thanks.


----------



## Loerpert

rhizomusicosmos said:


> Confirmed to be Shore for the main theme and McCreary for the general score:
> 
> Here is "Galadriel" by McCreary:
> 
> 
> And "Sauron":



Thanks for sharing! Not Shore, but also not too bad. Too bad there seems to be no thematic link to the movies.


----------



## Marcus Millfield

Loerpert said:


> Thanks for sharing! Not Shore, but also not bad. Too bad there seems to be no thematic link to the movies.



It sounds way more modern than anything Shore did on the movies. It misses a bit of identity.


----------



## FireGS

"Sauron" is disappointing.


----------



## CT

FireGS said:


> "Sauron" is disappointing.


I initially thought so too. Listening past the motoric string stuff, I think there's some potential.


----------



## Jorgakis

What's going on with "Galadriel", it almost sounds Japanese.:D Haven't heard so much harmony in a western score for a long time now.


----------



## Orchestrata

They sound good to me. Hard to compare two new themes out of context to themes we've been hearing in context for 20 years. Plenty of LotR cues felt underwhelming to me the first time round, but with the benefit of repetition, emotional context and time I now consider them masterpieces. Will give McCreary the same benefit of the doubt.


----------



## zedmaster

Loving both!


----------



## RonOrchComp

Just had a listen to these.

They are not good at all. First thing I thought when listening to 'Sauron' was, _oh, he re-wrote 'Battle Of The Heroes'._

Both pieces lack substance, and are nowhere near Shore's work. This is very disappointing.


----------



## szczaw

Sounds good but pretty generic. There is no LOTR / fantasy vibe there.


----------



## Great Zed

Tough crowd. Sounds good to me.


----------



## szczaw

'Galadriel' could be reused in a bunch of TV dramas unrelated to fantasy. 'Sauron' with the Orkish babble is more fitting but uninteresting.


----------



## Great Zed

To me it sounds very fantasy-oriented. I'm hearing Shore inspiration everywhere, especially in the choir parts. Love the memorable themes. I'm sure it fits the picture very well.


----------



## szczaw

Great Zed said:


> To me it sounds very fantasy-oriented. I'm hearing Shore inspiration everywhere, especially in the choir parts. Love the memorable themes. I'm sure it fits the picture very well.


I suppose it's a matter of taste. I didn't hear a single memorable thing there. Like I said, drop that in a bunch of TV dramas, get ride of that choir and likely nobody will ever notice.


----------



## CT

The first phrase of Galadriel's theme is very much in the right spirit and from there it nicely does its own thing to some extent. I am hopeful. They're making good decisions.


----------



## szczaw

This conveys something otherworldly (non-human freaking Elves).


----------



## RonOrchComp

THAT ^

if friggin' awesome. Listen to that, and then listen to "Galadriel", and tell me the latter is even remotely close. It's not.


----------



## rhizomusicosmos

Even Shore's underscore in LOTR is boldly thematic and it strikes me as slightly overbearing at times. But I think it is spot on for the genre. I think there will be chances for McCreary to shine, as he did in the Foundation series.


----------



## bitbrain

szczaw said:


> This conveys something otherworldly (non-human freaking Elves).



Galadriel is not the same person in The Lord of the Rings as in The Silmarillion as it takes place thousands of years earlier when Galadriel was more adventurous, willful, and engaged in the world and less the reclusive wise elder queen. Therefore, it makes sense that she would not be represented musically in the same way in this series. Additionally, she is clearly going to be a central character, if not the main character, which means this series will likely humanize her in a way that LotR did not, and her theme will reflect that.


----------



## szczaw

bitbrain said:


> Galadriel is not the same person in The Lord of the Rings as in The Silmarillion as it takes place thousands of years earlier when Galadriel was more adventurous, willful, and engaged in the world and less the reclusive wise elder queen. Therefore, it makes sense that she would not be represented musically in the same way in this series. Additionally, she is clearly going to be a central character, if not the main character, which means this series will likely humanize her in a way that LotR did not, and her theme will reflect that.


Music not reflecting the same mood is not the point. The lack of the character of the music is.


----------



## bitbrain

szczaw said:


> Differences in the character is not the point. The lack of the character of the music is.


You specifically complained that it lacked an otherworldly character, so yes, the characterization was the point. 

Regardless, I disagree that it lacks character. It sounds very romantic and noble, which suits a young noble warrior character quite well.


----------



## CT

bitbrain said:


> Galadriel is not the same person in The Lord of the Rings as in The Silmarillion as it takes place thousands of years earlier when Galadriel was more adventurous, willful, and engaged in the world and less the reclusive wise elder queen. Therefore, it makes sense that she would not be represented musically in the same way in this series. Additionally, she is clearly going to be a central character, if not the main character, which means this series will likely humanize her in a way that LotR did not, and her theme will reflect that.


Correct.


----------



## Kony

Michaelt said:


> Correct.




Sorry, couldn't resist


----------



## szczaw

bitbrain said:


> You specifically complained that it lacked an otherworldly character, so yes, the characterization was the point.
> 
> Regardless, I disagree that it lacks character. It sounds very romantic and noble, which suits a young noble warrior character quite well.


Where did I complain that the music lacked specifically otherworldly character ? I stated that the music doesn't fit fantasy, doesn't fit LOTR. Jackson's LOTR is an obvious reference point, especially when the same composer was engaged for the new series.

There is something romantic in the music, but this is again a mismatch.


----------



## RonOrchComp

bitbrain said:


> You specifically complained that it lacked an otherworldly character, so yes, the characterization was the point.
> 
> Regardless, I disagree that it lacks character. It sounds very romantic and noble, which suits a young noble warrior character quite well.


I actually agree that it lacks character.

And sounds _very romantic and noble_?

No, these are romantic and noble:

*

*

And that's not the level of quality that we hear on the previous page.


----------



## Great Zed

Settle down, y'all, it's one track, lol.


----------



## szczaw

I don't find this music to suck in general sense. It sucks big time given the scope of the undertaking ($500 million budget for the first season), and what came before it.


----------



## CT

Ok yes I was a fool to think I could come out of hiding for this subject at least and expect this place to _not_ be goofy....



Kony said:


> Sorry, couldn't resist



In this case I am indeed an arbiter of the truth, as it happens, and what bitbrain said was a correct interpretation of the subject matter and how it's being handled here.


----------



## Great Zed

Apparently he did a live performance at Comic Con. Found a snippet on Twitter: 
Noice.


----------



## szczaw

bitbrain said:


> Galadriel is not the same person in The Lord of the Rings as in The Silmarillion as it takes place thousands of years earlier when Galadriel was more adventurous, willful, and engaged in the world and less the reclusive wise elder queen. Therefore, it makes sense that she would not be represented musically in the same way in this series. Additionally, she is clearly going to be a central character, if not the main character, which means this series will likely humanize her in a way that LotR did not, and her theme will reflect that.


Apparently it's not Galadriel from The Silmarillion either, since Amazon doesn't own that material. This is not an adaptation, but something akin to Netflix and the Witcher. Some made up shit with book characters.


----------



## blaggins

I'd guess very high and very specific expectations might be at play here, at least to some degree. We've all spent 20 years with Shore's soundtrack and some of us l, myself included, have it burned into our brains. (I can't stay how often I've listened to some pieces from it. Hundreds at least, maybe a thousand times for my favorites.) Matching it in thematic content and overall feeling is probably an impossible task and I doubt mimicry was really the objective anyway.

That being said, like many of us I am a huge lifelong fan of anything Tolkien, and I freely admit to having irrationally high expectations of this show. The money and hype surrounding it is epic and historic. I am going to try hard to withhold judgement until I see it in context but I'm not *in love* with what I'm hearing so far...


----------



## CT

We are talking about little more than five minutes of music, for a series which is projected to likely sit at five _seasons_. Five minutes of music which is seemingly adapted for "concert" setting, which is being heard in a vacuum, without the context of the show around it. We do not know how this music will feel in the show, accompanying the appropriate characters, evolving over time, establishing itself as part of a massive musical tapestry deeply interwoven with everything else.

Shore's music would have felt different heard beforehand and in isolation like this. But would it have felt more "right" despite us having no standard at the time for what indeed was "right" for those films' music? I doubt it, there just would have been fewer preconceptions to measure it against. We likewise do not know exactly what will best serve this show, yet. 

I doubt there are too many people who are as intimate with the original music as I am, I really don't think that's an exaggeration. If I can stay open to this new stuff and find value in it, I think most others should be able to find the strength to as well....


----------



## bitbrain

tpoots said:


> I'd guess very high and very specific expectations might be at play here, at least to some degree. We've all spent 20 years with Shore's soundtrack and some of us l, myself included, have it burned into our brains. (I can't stay how often I've listened to some pieces from it. Hundreds at least, maybe a thousand times for my favorites.) Matching it in thematic content and overall feeling is probably an impossible task and I doubt mimicry was really the objective anyway.
> 
> That being said, like many of us I am a huge lifelong fan of anything Tolkien, and I freely admit to having irrationally high expectations of this show. The money and hype surrounding it is epic and historic. I am going to try hard to withhold judgement until I see it in context but I'm not *in love* with what I'm hearing so far...


I agree. I love the the LotR trilogy and think Shore's scores are some of the best ever written. But my expectations were exceedingly low for this series. I am well aware how difficult it was to make an adaptation as good as Jackson's, and recent history is full of disappointing entries into beloved franchises (I include the The Hobbit trilogy on this list), so I had simply assumed this would be a disaster from the start. Especially regarding the score. There was never a chance Shore would return for the entire venture, since he has been open about how daunting it was to score two trilogies much less five seasons of television. Most film composers are reluctant to score for television in general, so that leaves us with the most experienced television composers, and of that crop, Bear McCreary is undoubtedly one of the best, and I think the work he is doing here is quite good. Is it anywhere near the caliber of Shore's scores? I don't think so, no. But I wasn't expecting that, and I don't think anyone else should have seriously set their expectations that high either.

I am pleased to see that this series looks half-way decent at all. It could easily have been the next Wheel of Time, and I am quite happy that it appears to be better crafted than that show.


----------



## AudioLoco

Bear McCreary is a great choice! The dude has made Foundation a much better experience (well a kind of watchable one at least) due to his fantastic amazing score.

The series will probably be terrible. I'm very pessimistic.
Not even Jackson has managed to do a good LOTR impression.
His Hobbit is one of the worst piece of c.. films I have ever seen. It was all wrong. Looked like a bad videogame with cringy acting and ...singing...

The original LOTR trilogy was a case of every element in movie making choices aligning to the stars of the apocalypse milky way of doom and every piece of the puzzle (except fukkin Legolas surfing on an elephant) working together with marvel and purity of intent.
If you watch the "making of" those movies, the way the crew, actors etc have bonded and have "entered" the movie world after years working together has transpired through the screen and the love of movie-making and of the original books was clear and strong in the creation of the trilogy.

Also obviously, Shore's score will adorn forever the history of film music alongside the various StarWars, ET, Psycho, The Good the bad and the Ugly, Blade Runner, Back to the Future etc etc...
I don't envy anyone having to step up to that. .... well..... I slightly do


----------



## blaggins

I wouldn't judge Jackson too harshly for the Hobbit films. He wasn't supposed to direct them and didn't want to direct them, but they brought him onboard (at the final hour) anyway b/c Guillermo del Toro left. He was left trying to direct someone else's film without time to adequately prepare.


----------



## AudioLoco

tpoots said:


> I wouldn't judge Jackson too harshly for the Hobbit films. He wasn't supposed to direct them and didn't want to direct them, but they brought him onboard (at the final hour) anyway b/c Guillermo del Toro left. He was left trying to direct someone else's film without time to adequately prepare.


Yeah I get your point. I am not that knowledgable about the Hobbit's making of history I admit.
Although the mega frame-rate increase (which might have been part of the problem) was his thing if I remember correctly.(???)
Also still, he should have decided to go for an Alan Smithee credit on that one if he wanted absolution


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

Underwhelming main theme, despite the violonist's theatrics...


----------



## Loïc D

Hmmmm, I also miss some kind of LOTR wizardry and feel like these titles could have served other fantasy shows as well.

I feel Galadriel theme to be too noble and angelic while the character is very complex from the beginning.
And Sauron theme feels like “badass lord of war” which he is not in the book. He’s a fantom character for the most part, living hidden in remote places, more a evil within (the land, the minds, the Maiar) than a warmonger.
Shore did a fantastic in impersonating this in music.

So I don’t have a good feeling about this but maybe the series will be nice and the music serve it well. I mean, Bear Mc Creary has repeatedly proven that he stands up for big shows.


----------



## Henning

Patrick de Caumette said:


> Underwhelming main theme, despite the violonist's theatrics...


Come on, it's Sandy Cameron!  I like the music in itself. It's quite rock'n'roll here and there which I like. I don't know if I would have guessed that it's for a fantasy show or even Lord of the Rings if played without info. But anyway, let's see how it works in the show and especially if the show is any good


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

Henning said:


> Come on, it's Sandy Cameron!  I like the music in itself. It's quite rock'n'roll here and there which I like. I don't know if I would have guessed that it's for a fantasy show or even Lord of the Rings if played without info. But anyway, let's see how it works in the show and especially if the show is any good


To be honest, i liked the darker second half better.


----------



## Pier

Great Zed said:


> Settle down, y'all, it's one track, lol.


It's really not. It's more of a symptom of a bigger issue IMO. The music is as bland as all the teasers and trailers we've seen so far. I'm 100% certain Amazon and the showrunners/producers are to blame for the direction taken.

Time will tell but I fear Rings is going to be another Wheel of Time crap but with more budget.

Reminds a lot of Foundation actually. Based on classic literature. Lots of talent. Lots of money. Result: amazing high production values and a complete snoozefest.


----------



## Fitz

HarmonKard said:


> Looks like Howard Shore pulled a John Williams
> 
> Does anyone know if McCeary actually writes his own stuff, or is it more of a ghost writer thing going on?


From what I’ve heard, he has head composers for each show that he “ works on“. I believe he writes some main themes and then farms out the rest. I don’t know him personally but it’s impossible to write that many scores in such a short amount of time That’s why all of this sounds very generic


----------



## Great Zed

If I'm not mistaken, Shore had about 6 years to compose the trilogy, while McCreary had around a year to compose roughly the same amount of music. Things move so fast these days you can't blame the composer if he hasn't written a God-tier masterpiece on the same level as Shore's score, or for needing help from other composers.

Hard to tell if the actual show will be any good. I'm pessimistic, but I'm pleasantly surprised with how the score has turned out so far. We'll see.


----------



## MarcMahler89

Pier said:


> It's really not. It's more of a symptom of a bigger issue IMO. The music is as bland as all the teasers and trailers we've seen so far. I'm 100% certain Amazon and the showrunners/producers are to blame for the direction taken.


I was as disappointed as you after watching the first teaser, probably even more, but to be fair, the original LOTR movie trailers were even worse, but the end result was something ... else as we all might agree.

For reference, here the Two Towers Trailer, with one of the most overused pieces of music (requiem for a dream): 


I noticed that they have listened to quite a bit of the critique, as the second teasers color grading changed a lot. Music still way over the top, but sadly this applies to EVERY trailer in every genre nowerdays.


----------



## Pier

MarcMahler89 said:


> To be fair, the original LOTR movie trailers were even worse, but the end result was something ... else as we all might agree.
> 
> For reference, here the Two Towers Trailer, with one of the most overused pieces of music (requiem for a dream):
> 
> 
> I noticed that they have listened to quite a bit of the critique, as the second teasers color grading changed a lot. Music still way over the top, but sadly this applies to EVERY trailer in every genre nowerdays.



Talk about a spoiler by showing Gandalf in the trailer!

I think this was probably the first big trailer to use Lux Aeterna though.

I admit this trailer is a bit cheesy, but it's 20 years old at this point. Also the actors/characters look way better than the trailer for Rings of power although it could be a bias since I've seen those films more times that I care to admit.


----------



## MarcMahler89

Pier said:


> Also the actors/characters look way better than the trailer for Rings of power although it could be a bias since I've seen those films more times that I care to admit.


Its most certainly a bias, because i was thinking the same thing after the first teaser. But i recently had the same feeling after watching the "House of the Dragon" teasers, and as i watched GOT multiple times as well, this might be just an ordinary bias as well. Damn, even the trailer for the first season of GOT was cheesy, but one of the best seasons of television. So i probably just end up not putting much more thought into it, watch the final product, and then judge.

But as i already didnt like the "Hobbit" trilogy much, and theres a lot of nostalgia involved as well (damn, i was 12 when i watched the first LOTR in the cinema when it was released), my subconsious expectations would be impossible to meet anyways.


----------



## Pier

MarcMahler89 said:


> So i probably just end up not putting much more thought into it, watch the final product, and then judge.


I expect it to be terrible so it can really only get better!



MarcMahler89 said:


> But as i already didnt like the "Hobbit" trilogy much, and theres a lot of nostalgia involved as well (damn, i was 12 when i watched the first LOTR in the cinema when it was released), my subconsious expectations would be impossible to meet anyways.


I was in my 20s when I first watched the Peter Jackson movies. By that time I had read the books a couple of times already and I was disappointed by the movies. The overall plot is certainly similar but the tone is completely different. I now accept that it was an interpretation and I can enjoy those films, but I'm still annoyed how some characters were distorted. Stuff like Sauron being a huge Warhammer-like warrior and the eye at the top of Barad-dûr like a cheesy video game boss.

Anyway, I re-watched the Hobbit movies last year and I enjoyed them a lot more than when they were released.

Honestly I think GoT is really the only show that has nailed the fantasy tone. I'm surprised with its success it hasn't been imitated by other fantasy stuff. Unfortunately the genre is mostly ruled by "family friendly" content. The new D&D film is basically the Taika Waititi Marvel tone in a fantasy setting.


----------



## CT

Never thought I'd see someone be disappointed in Jackson's LOTR, enjoy his Hobbit, and think Game of Thrones is the pinnacle of fantasy tone/hasn't been widely imitated....


----------



## Great Zed

Game of Thrones is definitely at the very top (if not the pinnacle) of fantasy tone. There have been many failed attempts at imitating GOT, yes. Most of those imitations rely on visual effects, CGI action set pieces, but are hollow at their cores. The backbone of GOT was its great writing and character development, and that's why it was so great.


----------



## Pier

Michaelt said:


> Never thought I'd see someone be disappointed in Jackson's LOTR, enjoy his Hobbit, and think Game of Thrones is the pinnacle of fantasy tone/hasn't been widely imitated....


In terms of tone? Yeah GoT absolutely. In no small part because it's actually very close to the books. At least the first seasons before they show runners decided they were tired of following the books and then veered into their own creation.

Jackson's LOTR is quite an interpretation of the books. I'd be surprised anyone having read the books would think otherwise. I'm not saying these are bad movies by any means, I like them, but the books are a very different thing.

And I don't mean it because the plot was altered to make the story more attractive to mainstream audiences but in terms of tone. For example in the LOTR book, the love subplot between Aragorn and Arwen is almost non existent. Tolkien explicitly excluded it from the book and elaborated it later in an appendix. Characters were changed drastically. Gandalf is presented as a funny old magician until his fight with the Balrog and his rebirth as Gandalf the white. In truth Gandalf is a Maia, a supernatural immortal being, not some old man that gets high on Hobbit weed. Etc.


----------



## CT

All right!


----------



## TonalDynamics

Kony said:


> Sorry, couldn't resist



Lmao my barber does this, I'm gonna link him this clip...

But then I might be looking for a new barber :O

Decisions...


----------



## Marcus Millfield

Pier said:


>



Talking about bias, how can anyone who has ever played watch a D&D movie. This'll never stand up to that experience.


----------



## Pier

Marcus Millfield said:


> Talking about bias, how can anyone who has ever played watch a D&D movie. This'll never stand up to that experience.


Maybe we should start a VIC TTRPG game or somethin 😂


----------



## Marcus Millfield

Pier said:


> Maybe we should start a VIC TTRPG game or somethin 😂


Dibs on the dual dagger wielding chaotic grumpy old dwarf.


----------



## Robin Thompson

Pier said:


> Talk about a spoiler by showing Gandalf in the trailer!
> 
> I think this was probably the first big trailer to use Lux Aeterna though.
> 
> I admit this trailer is a bit cheesy, but it's 20 years old at this point. Also the actors/characters look way better than the trailer for Rings of power although it could be a bias since I've seen those films more times that I care to admit.


That Gandalf spoiler is especially weird since they went to so much work to make us think it was Saruman in the movie! They even laid Lee's voice over McKellan! And then just tossed all that under the bus. Worst spoiler since the T2 trailers outed Arnold as the good guy.


----------



## jeremyr

Anyone listened to the full score on youtube yet? I like the softer moments, but the louder and more action-y moments with choir sound off to me, like it's being layered with VSTs, and maybe the choir is entirely sampled (I can't hear syllables at all, especially in the altos/sopranos.) Does anyone else get this impression?


----------



## CT

I think some of the recording decisions are more "modern" than what was done for Shore's music. The choir, which I believe was largely recorded at Synchron, does have a few moments where I wish they'd been together the with the orchestra for timing/intonation purposes, but I don't think it's entirely sampled, no. Just mixed a certain way.


----------



## Loerpert

I'm going to wait until I can hear the music in context. I think I am currently way too biased and will compare everything with Shore's work and the movies.


----------



## Loerpert

AudioLoco said:


> .....aaaaaand the final nail in the coffin....
> What mind has decided this is the right trailer music for a LOTR show??
> Cheesy corny like the show is going to be probably....
> Promotion and creative direction/production are very separate entities when it comes to these kind of releases, still, there must be a unifying and hopefully lordoftheringian view to present to the public??
> This feels like a new Twilight movie.



Yeah for me the trailer music sounds way off as well. The music is not at all bad, but just doesn't fit the whole thing in my opinion.


----------



## AudioLoco

Loerpert said:


> Yeah for me the trailer music sounds way off as well. The music is not at all bad, but just doesn't fit the whole thing in my opinion.


Yeah, it wasn't a comment on the quality or lack of quality of the trailer music, I agree with you.


----------



## jbuhler

Loerpert said:


> I mean I don't understand why they would want to do that. The movies were such a success. Why not follow in those footsteps. I'm not saying the trailers reflect the final show, but it looks they went in a different direction indeed.


I wouldn't say the trailer is telling us much of anything about the direction of the show other than what the marketing folks think will bring in additional eyeballs beyond existing LOTR fans. A better measure of what the show will be is in the music that has been released.


----------



## CT

Trailers almost always make bad musical decisions. Watch it on mute. Hardly a "nail in the coffin" then.


----------



## szczaw

Satorious said:


> Hmm - why involve Howard Shore if that was the case?


He wrote the main title only. Did the Galadriel theme change ? This one is much better.


----------



## rhizomusicosmos

This appears to be the song used in the trailer: _Breath _by Ex Makina. Obviously layered with extra instrumentation for the arrangement.





Musicbed







www.musicbed.com


----------



## Henning

Right now listening to the score and I'm enjoying it!


----------



## Tanarri

The trailers were some of the worst stuff I've ever seen. Totally generic trendy fantasy nonsense with literally a second after a second of non-Tolkien non-fan fiction dreck. And the choice of music was so terrible it just showed the people don't care about the legacy at all.

I've never listened to anything from McCreary, so I got the ROP score a listen and it's way better than the usual sludge we get from hollywood these days. Just googled the guy, he studied under Elmer Bernstein, explains a lot.


----------



## Henning

Have listened to the whole score now. It's really lovely. There's some vibes from his Outlander scores in there, especially with the broad string melody sweeps and the more folksy elements, e.g. when the whistle, bodhran, fiddle and uillean pipes come in. Lots to love in there.


----------



## zedmaster

I love what Bear McCreary has done there!


----------



## Loerpert

Please move the <cultural/political> discussion here



https://vi-control.net/community/threads/endles-rambling-about-lotr-politics.129170/



Thanks.


----------



## szczaw

As far as music is concerned, Shore's main title is nice. I'm not a fan of Bear McCreary, but I suppose his contributions will work fine. It's nothing to write home about though.


----------



## Loerpert

szczaw said:


> As far as music is concerned, Shore's main title is nice. I'm not a fan of Bear McCreary, but I suppose his contributions will work fine. It's nothing to write home about though.


I kinda agree. Feels a little bland, but let's hope it gets better in context.


----------



## CT

Really enjoying what both composers did. Excellent music with a rare (for 2022 anyway) display of serious craft and taste.


----------



## Mike Greene

Loerpert said:


> Please move the discussion here
> 
> 
> 
> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/endles-rambling-about-lotr-politics.129170/
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks.


The side discussion was a worthy topic, but it's so long and heated that it derailed the music discussion here. So I've moved those posts to Loerpert's spinoff thread.


----------



## Drundfunk

I listend to a few tracks. Can't say I'm excited for the show. Even the music seems off somehow and quite generic... . Guess I'll just ignore the show.


----------



## Great Zed

I've listened to almost the whole soundtrack at this point. How anyone can find this music generic is beyond me. Parts of it remind me of Shore's work and Poledouris' Conan score. "The Stranger" has become a new favorite track of mine. Love the use of the featured percussive instrument (a gamelan, I think?). I'm not crazy about the few tracks with solo vocalists. But overall, one of the best osts I've heard in a while.


----------



## Drundfunk

Great Zed said:


> I've listened to almost the whole soundtrack at this point. How anyone can find this music generic is beyond me. Parts of it remind me of Shore's work and Poledouris' Conan score. "The Stranger" has become a new favorite track of mine. Love the use of the featured percussive instrument (a gamelan, I think?). I'm not crazy about the few tracks with solo vocalists. But overall, one of the best osts I've heard in a while.


 Well, as I said I only listened to a few tracks (probably 40min of the 2 hours 30min on YT). But what I heard doesn't really give me a sense of sonic identity. It's just fantasy music you could throw into Narnia , Wheel of Time or any other fantasy show. In a sense it's fitting since the show also looks like it could be any random fantasy show. But honestly, what I heard sounds like the usual tv scoring job, where the deadline is so insane the composer can be glad he managed to deliver on time. It just doesn't really excite me.


----------



## Great Zed

I keep seeing this argument, but I've seen a couple of episodes of Wheel of Time, and it is quite generic, with an ost that is quite fittingly generic and modern sounding. If you compare them, Rings of Power is way more traditional orchestral, thematic, with quite a bit more nuance.


----------



## vitocorleone123

Drundfunk said:


> Well, as I said I only listened to a few tracks (probably 40min of the 2 hours 30min on YT). But what I heard doesn't really give me a sense of sonic identity. It's just fantasy music you could throw into Narnia , Wheel of Time or any other fantasy show. In a sense it's fitting since the show also looks like it could be any random fantasy show. But honestly, what I heard sounds like the usual tv scoring job, where the deadline is so insane the composer can be glad he managed to deliver on time. It just doesn't really excite me.


But that’s because they copied/drew heavy inspiration from LOTR. Does an original need to be pioneering? Would changing it up be a disservice rather than a boon?


----------



## Drundfunk

vitocorleone123 said:


> But that’s because they copied/drew heavy inspiration from LOTR. Does an original need to be pioneering? Would changing it up be a disservice rather than a boon?


Well I can only speak for myself, but I don't get a Middle-earth feeling at all. Not with the music and especially not with the show as a whole.


----------



## AudioLoco

Tanarri said:


> The trailers were some of the worst stuff I've ever seen. Totally generic trendy fantasy nonsense with literally a second after a second of non-Tolkien non-fan fiction dreck. And the choice of music was so terrible it just showed the people don't care about the legacy at all.
> 
> I've never listened to anything from McCreary, so I got the ROP score a listen and it's way better than the usual sludge we get from hollywood these days. Just googled the guy, he studied under Elmer Bernstein, explains a lot.


I'm a McCreary fan after listening to the Foundation score. Class act.


----------



## vitocorleone123

Drundfunk said:


> Well I can only speak for myself, but I don't get a Middle-earth feeling at all. Not with the music and especially not with the show as a whole.


I’ve only seen the trailer and was operating based on the thread title.


----------



## signalpath

Drundfunk said:


> Doesn't really give me a sense of sonic identity. It's just fantasy music you could throw into Narnia, Wheel of Time or any other fantasy show. In a sense it's fitting since the show also looks like it could be any random fantasy show.


I feel the same way.


----------



## Pier

AudioLoco said:


> I'm a McCreary fan after listening to the Foundation score. Class act.


He's worked on so much stuff. I love his God of War score.


----------



## method1

Apparently Howard Stern is scoring the 2nd season.


----------



## Pier

Great Zed said:


> An example of groupthink at its finest.


Or maybe the trailer is just bad?

I mean, they should fire the marketing genius who thought it'd be a good idea to add pop vocoder voices on a trailer for something Tolkien related 😂


----------



## Great Zed

Yeah, I agree the trailer is really awful. I'm mostly just being silly. BUT, I have seen this kind of thing with world news and social media, where the ratio clearly favors the conspiracy theory nuts. Not to get off topic again, I apologize.


----------



## CT

Music choice for that trailer was awful, but I truly think to not see _any other_ value in it has to be a result of willful disdain. 🤷‍♂️


----------



## RonOrchComp

vitocorleone123 said:


> To date, your voice is a lonely one being so critical.



His voice is not so lonely. As I pointed out earlier in the thread, the music lacks substance, and is nowhere near Shore's work. There are others who agree. Read the thread. I don't get a Middle-earth feeling at all, either.

Being a big fan of LOTR, I really want to like this, and the music. And maybe I will - we will have to wait and see. It may all come together, and be wonderful. But for right now, the music by itself is just not cutting it. Shore's work, on it's own, does.


----------



## Pier

I've been listening to the RoP score and the Howard Shore LOTR ones these last days.

The production of RoP is fantastic but sometimes the themes/writing feel bland. Obviously McCreary is an amazing composer but he might have been stretched too thin on this project, I don't know.

When going back to the LOTR scores it becomes immediately obvious his writing is so much stronger. I hadn't listened to this stuff in years and it's so good. The emotional range is big which is something I miss in the RoP score which feels... homogeneous?

Another thing I noticed is that the modern production of the RoP score kinda dilutes the writing in a way. The LOTR score has such a different sound. It's like it doesn't try to impress with the production but just the honest good writing. It's like the production is in the service of the writing and not the other way around.

Of course this is all very subjective. The RoP score has some strong pieces but in general I find it lacks the magic and heart of the LOTR scores. It's like they spent all the money making an impressive orchestration and production over a rushed writing.

This might be a bit unfair though. RoP is after all a TV show and not a film. It might all work very well in the end.


----------



## Great Zed

Pier said:


> I've been listening to the RoP score and the Howard Shore LOTR ones these last days.
> 
> The production of RoP is fantastic but sometimes the themes/writing feel bland. Obviously McCreary is an amazing composer but he might have been stretched too thin on this project, I don't know.
> 
> When going back to the LOTR scores it becomes immediately obvious his writing is so much stronger. I hadn't listened to this stuff in years and it's so good. The emotional range is big which is something I miss in the RoP score which feels... homogeneous?
> 
> Another thing I noticed is that the modern production of the RoP score kinda dilutes the writing in a way. The LOTR score has such a different sound. It's like it doesn't try to impress with the production but just the honest good writing. It's like the production is in the service of the writing and not the other way around.
> 
> Of course this is all very subjective. The RoP score has some strong pieces but in general I find it lacks the magic and heart of the LOTR scores. It's like they spent all the money making an impressive orchestration and production over a rushed writing.
> 
> This might be a bit unfair though. RoP is after all a TV show and not a film. It might all work very well in the end.


In my opinion, Shore's original score has some of the best music ever written, for any medium. Those are some large shoes to fill. I can see how, for some people, ROP's score might sound generic in comparison. But by itself, as an entirely separate entity, I think it's rather beautiful. And it might grow on you. Sometimes context is needed to make sense of the music. The visuals and storyline can heighten the musical experience by quite a bit, and visa versa. I remember thinking the Game of Thrones theme sounded kind of generic before I started watching the show. Now its one of my favorite themes.


----------



## Pier




----------



## Piotrek K.

Just started listening to the score and Khazad-Dum is something that could come from Poledouris' Conan (very clear inspiration, but great piece). Nori Brandyfoot is also sweet and that sweeping strings are really beautiful.

First few tracks give me a hope for good listen and truly orchestral, grand score.


----------



## CT

Piotrek K. said:


> First few tracks give me a hope for good listen and truly orchestral, grand score.


It is certainly that. Bear is the real deal.


----------



## blaggins

Piotrek K. said:


> Just started listening to the score and Khazad-Dum is something that could come from Poledouris' Conan (very clear inspiration, but great piece). Nori Brandyfoot is also sweet and that sweeping strings are really beautiful.
> 
> First few tracks give me a hope for good listen and truly orchestral, grand score.


I got the Conan vibes too. I've given the full OST a listen through and I'm finding that I like it. Makes me look forward to the show even more.


----------



## RyanRhea

....

I do really like the score, though! Great scoring in the action sequences, for sure. 👍🏻


----------



## blaggins

I saw both episodes last night and will certainly watch them again sometime this week. So far I'm really enjoying it. I think Galadriel was incredibly well cast, and actually I like what they did with the early hobbits. The music worked really well and there was a little motif that kept reappearing that I think is going to stick with me for a while.


----------



## Loerpert

Watched the forst one. Finding it quite decent. The music fits pretty well.


----------



## blaggins

> I do really like the score, though! Great scoring in the action sequences, for sure. 👍🏻


Totally agree with you there. I admit I was a little bit skeptical when I first heard some of it, but it fits the show really well. I re-listened to "Nori Brandyfoot" this morning and I had a kind of emotional reaction that I didn't have when I first heard it. It fits the little hobbit folk so well. McCreary's writing brings a lot of emotional weight to the show.


----------



## Ian Dorsch

After watching the first episode, it occurs to me how much more challenging this series would be to score vs a film like Fellowship, which starts out quite tightly focused compared to the sprawling trans-continental multiple-parallel-plotlines first hour of Rings of Power. The more immediately "epic" nature of the show deprives us (and the composer) of those intimate, character-driven moments that gave Fellowship so much punch, so instead of adding nuance to weighty moments, RoP often leaves it to the composer to supply emotional context for what might otherwise be some fairly weightless moments. It's really asking a lot, and I think Bear has done a beautiful job with it.


----------



## Great Zed

Ian Dorsch said:


> The more immediately "epic" nature of the show deprives us (and the composer) of those intimate, character-driven moments that gave Fellowship so much punch, so instead of adding nuance to weighty moments, RoP often leaves it to the composer to supply emotional context for what might otherwise be some fairly weightless moments.


I really love what McCreary has done with the score, and it does add a lot of emotional punch to the scenes, I agree. But, I have to disagree that there's less character-driven moments, and I argue that the first episodes are MOSTLY character-driven. Lots of up-close, emotionally charged shots with a lot of dialogue. More than I was expecting, at least.


----------



## Ian Dorsch

Great Zed said:


> I really love what McCreary has done with the score, and it does add a lot of emotional punch to the scenes, I agree. But, I have to disagree that there's less character-driven moments, and I argue that the first episodes are MOSTLY character-driven. Lots of up-close, emotionally charged shots with a lot of dialogue. More than I was expecting, at least.


Sure, lots of close-ups and lots of portentous dialogue from beloved characters such as a) prologue elf guy b) a dirty hobbit c) another elf guy who I guess has a thing for a human woman and d) Galadriel and various other elves who have a bone to pick with her for various obviously misguided reasons. It's not that there aren't character-driven moments, it's that we have little up-front investment in any of these characters and we are given little time or reason to become invested. The music does a lot of heavy lifting to convince us, that's all I'm saying.


----------



## szczaw

Great Zed said:


> You have not seen ... what I have seen.


I'm downloading Synchron Strings bundle. I'll watch the earrings of power in 2-3 hours.


----------



## signalpath

In an interview Bear McCreary stated that the choir was recorded in Vienna.


----------



## Antonio Zarza

For me the music sounds very generic in comparison with Shore’s vision. And sorry about that but is a LOTR series so is inevitable to compare. I think that the music needed more time to cook. 

These days all goes fast, and art needs time if you want something that remains. 

With all the respect for the composer I feel this score is not going to have the impact that had for example the Game of Thrones score. 

Amazon changing the story and forcing the agenda don’t help either. 

But these are only two chapters so we need to finish the entire season first to confirm or not all of this.


----------



## CT

I'm quite happy with what the show (and score) are at the moment, and happy to stick around to see where it goes. Even within just these two episodes, seeing some of these things adapted to the screen is quite thrilling.

I'd suggest tuning out the obviously review-bombed internet ratings, as well as any... colorfully editorialized reactions, and taking a peak for oneself, if the interest is there.



signalpath said:


> In an interview Bear McCreary stated that the choir was recorded in Vienna.



Yes, the choir was recored at Synchron. Could well have overlapped with some of the sessions VSL did for the Big Bang choral stuff. There are a few moments when I wish they'd been in the same room as the orchestra for better intonation and timing, but what can you do.


----------



## lychee

Listening to the music and especially the title "Galadriel" I said to myself, I know these chords, it sounds like The Foundation.
And bingo! it is indeed the same composer behind this other series, and personally I love his style.


----------



## AudioLoco

Great to hear some good 'ol "theme-y" music playing non stop on a mainstream show.
Good change from aleatoric abstract etc we usually encounter.... Refreshing.

The music is amazing (not the biggest fan of the whistle "Oirish" theme, but the rest is great, the dwarves theme is really fun and the main Galadriel theme is fantastic), and I haven't been finding myself humming melodies after watching a show/film for a while.


----------



## tmhuud

Does the dirty Hobbit have his own theme?


----------



## Bruhelius

lychee said:


> I saw the first two episodes of The Lord of the Ring series, and it seems on the same level as the movies for my taste.
> For me it remains below GOT in terms of the richness of the universe and the characters, but the two series are of good quality.
> 
> Listening to the music and especially the title "Galadriel" I said to myself, I know these chords, it sounds like The Foundation.
> And bingo! it is indeed the same composer behind this other series, and personally I love his style.


I spotted this parallel as well. Glad I am not the only one. Foundation and Bear’s main LOTR theme share similar melodic lines (first couple of notes) and harmonic progressions. 4-Minor6 chord back to tonic.


----------



## Loerpert

tmhuud said:


> Does the dirty Hobbit have his own theme?


Smeagol? Is that you?


----------



## Pier

Composer Bear McCreary Interview: LOTR The Rings of Power


Composer Bear McCreary on The Rings of Power.




screenrant.com


----------



## MartinH.

I only watched 2 episodes, but I thought it's already better than the first two hobbit films (haven't seen the third) which I absolutely hated. My expectations were very low, but I thought it's actually OK, might watch more of it.
The music editing bothered me a bit. Felt like the volume ducking against dialog was a bit too jarring. Didn't mind the music otherwise.


----------



## Loerpert

Four episodes in I must say I'm very positive about both the series and the music. I had not expected it. The way Bear is playing with leitmotifs really pleases me!


----------



## Fitz

I’m the complete opposite as you. I think it completely misses the mark and is devoid of heart.


----------



## gbar

Howard Shore composed the main theme.

The rest of the music is composted by Bear McCreary.


----------



## gbar

Fitz said:


> I’m the complete opposite as you. I think it completely misses the mark and is devoid of heart.


I like it, personally. I would be the last person to offer harsh criticism to either Shore (the Main Theme) or McCreary who composed 9 hours of music for the series.

9 hours of music is a heavy lift.


----------



## AudioLoco

gbar said:


> Howard Shore composed the main theme.
> 
> The rest of the music is composted by Bear McCreary.


He is certainly a great composter!


----------



## Pier

AudioLoco said:


> He is certainly a great composter!


Isn't all art just composting?


----------



## rhizomusicosmos

Pier said:


> Isn't all art just composting?


My high school music teacher used to torture us with this:


> When Beethoven passed away, he was buried in a churchyard. A couple days later, the town drunk was walking through the cemetery and heard some strange noise coming from the area where Beethoven was buried. Terrified, the drunk ran and got the priest to come and listen to it. The priest bent close to the grave and heard some faint, unrecognizable music coming from the grave. Frightened, the priest ran and got the town magistrate.
> 
> When the magistrate arrived, he bent his ear to the grave, listened for a moment, and said, "Ah, yes, that's Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, being played backwards."
> 
> He listened a while longer, and said, "There's the Eighth Symphony, and it's backwards, too. Most puzzling." So the magistrate kept listening; "There's the Seventh... the Sixth... the Fifth..."
> 
> Suddenly the realization of what was happening dawned on the magistrate; he stood up and announced to the crowd that had gathered in the cemetery, "My fellow citizens, there's nothing to worry about. It's just Beethoven decomposing."


----------



## Great Zed

Too soon...


----------



## AudioLoco

OK the auto tune hobbit pop singy song did it for me.
I tried to appreciate what I could, the first two episodes looked like it could actually be OK, and not total s..t.

Unfortunately. It's total sh..t.

Who the hell in the music department thought that a heavy melodyned, autotuned, robot voice would work on a fantasy-medioeval settings? In LOTR?! It takes you out of the already difficult to get in world.

The lighting is all fak-y and wrong and you almost feel the guy holding the lighting equipment breathing behind you. That blue screen is screaming "blue screen!" and you can feel they are all in a huge room and not in an enchanted world.
The elf hair. The hobbit hair. They have a problem with hair in general.

Excluding the main dwarf and the elf in love with the woman (I can't even remember the names of the characters) as a spectator I couldn't care less for any of the characters and wouldn't flinch if they all died in the next episode. Especially the boring, zero endearing main character, Galadriel.

So I was wrong. It is worst than the Hobbit film.
All the money in the world, and this is what they come up with?

I defended it against bigotry for its inclusive cast.
I despise it for actually being total shai..t and a waste of time.

Sorry rant over....


----------



## blaggins

AudioLoco said:


> OK the auto tune hobbit pop singy song did it for me.
> I tried to appreciate what I could, the first two episodes looked like it could actually be OK, and not total s..t.


Which piece are you referring to? (I haven't seen the last episode if that's what it's in...)


----------



## AudioLoco

blaggins said:


> Which piece are you referring to? (I haven't seen the last episode if that's what it's in...)


You will know exactly which one it is when you get there


----------



## patrick76

Is it this one?


----------



## AudioLoco

patrick76 said:


> Is it this one?



nope, more a traditional song with 2015 pop vocal production


----------



## Great Zed

Huh. The vocals didn't scream autotune to me (although I think there are a few disjointed edits here or there), and the song itself pretty standard and folky. As a montage piece I thought it was ok.


----------



## Ed Wine

Great Zed said:


> Huh. The vocals didn't scream autotune to me (although I think there are a few disjointed edits here or there), and the song itself pretty standard and folky. As a montage piece I thought it was ok.


I agree. I, at first, thought AudioLoco, was writing about the music in the last trailer.


----------



## blaggins

AudioLoco said:


> You will know exactly which one it is when you get there


Ok so I think I know what song you speak of, I'll link it in spoiler tags:



Spoiler: Harfoot tune








It did feel a bit like a "pop music" moment, definitely a bit of a musical departure for a sec there (from the weighty, grand, and emotional tenor of the rest of the soundtrack) but it's a sweet little folk ballad and actually I had heard it many times on the soundtrack already, and I will admit that I like that tune. It's catchy and folksy.


----------



## AudioLoco

blaggins said:


> Ok so I think I know what song you speak of, I'll link it in spoiler tags:
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Harfoot tune
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It did feel a bit like a "pop music" moment, definitely a bit of a musical departure for a sec there (from the weighty, grand, and emotional tenor of the rest of the soundtrack) but it's a sweet little folk ballad and actually I had heard it many times on the soundtrack already, and I will admit that I like that tune. It's catchy and folksy.



I'm particularly allergic to very heavy auto tuning. I can visualize the straight Melodyne pitch lines the engineer applied for each note....
In a pop context I guess it's a must (post 2001).
But combined with a sweet little folk ballad it's the kiss of death for my old ears.
The track in the episode starts with the halfhobbit singer singing nicely, probably on set, no obvious processing. When the auto tune/Melodyne/whole backing track kicks in it's pretty obvious and bothersome to me.


Ps ....and yes, the contrast with the great (and natural/organic sounding) score is really weird not in a good way - to my personal taste obviously.


----------



## Zedcars

Only just started watching this. The theme sounded very familiar. Then tonight I suddenly remembered where I’d heard it before; the series Coast by the BBC which first aired in 2005. The beginning of the melody is practically identical. The theme was specially composed by Alan Parker and is performed by the BBC Symphony Orchestra:


----------



## Montisquirrel

The title of this thread really needs to be changed. Howard Shore did not score it, only the Intro music for whatever marketing reason.


----------



## HarmonKard

Zedcars said:


> Only just started watching this. The theme sounded very familiar. Then tonight I suddenly remembered where I’d heard it before; the series Coast by the BBC which first aired in 2005. The beginning of the melody is practically identical. The theme was specially composed by Alan Parker and is performed by the BBC Symphony Orchestra:






There is a bit of a similarity, but overall they are vastly different.


----------



## Great Zed

Two bars are almost the same, except ROP has an E natural in an Am progression where the other plays an Eb in C Dorian. I think.


----------



## Loerpert

Montisquirrel said:


> The title of this thread really needs to be changed. Howard Shore did not score it, only the Intro music for whatever marketing reason.


What would you suggest?


----------



## AudioLoco

Loerpert said:


> What would you suggest?


What about something concise like:

"LOTR - ROP: how muzic? how show? There is also a separate political thread to fight over culture war stuff"


----------



## Montisquirrel

Loerpert said:


> What would you suggest?


"If I find something bad, everybody needs to find it bad too and if not, they are stupid"

or

"Lets discuss my opinion untill everybody agrees"

ok, jokes aside

"Ring of Power - The Series - Discussion Thread" would be my choice.


----------



## blaggins

"Bear McCeary Scores Rings of Power"?

It might be nice to refocus on the music in this thread. I get that folks want to talk about the show until everyone turns blue in the face but there's already a different thread for that..."


----------



## Henning

Well, if you like to read up on the composition process here you go:









The Lord of the Rings: Appendices Part 2 - Bear McCreary


SCORING “THE LORD OF THE RINGS: THE RINGS OF POWER”THE APPENDICES: PART 2THEMES OF MIDDLE-EARTH This is the second of four blog entries chronicling my personal experience scoring the first season of The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power. The first, “Journey to Middle-earth,” can be found...




bearmccreary.com


----------



## AEF

Henning said:


> Well, if you like to read up on the composition process here you go:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Lord of the Rings: Appendices Part 2 - Bear McCreary
> 
> 
> SCORING “THE LORD OF THE RINGS: THE RINGS OF POWER”THE APPENDICES: PART 2THEMES OF MIDDLE-EARTH This is the second of four blog entries chronicling my personal experience scoring the first season of The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power. The first, “Journey to Middle-earth,” can be found...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bearmccreary.com


A very humble account of his work…


----------



## Mike Greene

blaggins said:


> It might be nice to refocus on the music in this thread. I get that folks want to talk about the show until everyone turns blue in the face but there's already a different thread for that..."


I think you're right, so let's make this thread entirely about the music.

I might did go back and delete the posts about the show itself, since I assume anyone who actually cares about those opinions has already read them, as they've responded with their own counter-opinions. Reddit or Facebook are better places for that.


----------



## Great Zed

Henning said:


> Well, if you like to read up on the composition process here you go:



His method of using a different first interval for his main themes so they'd be instantly recognizable is interesting, and very effective, I think. The fact that he created detailed mock ups of the entire score even though it'd be replaced by a real orchestra ... just a monstrous undertaking.


----------



## Jetzer

I like the score , even though I sometimes feel it's a bit overdone with the character themes. 

Overall , to write something like this in under a year is a massive effort, which of course needs a massive team. So, well done. 

The blogs are interesting to read, although I've learned to see through the PR presentations of the process these days.


----------



## Henning

And the latest part of the blog
:








The Lord of the Rings: Appendices Part 3 - Bear McCreary


SCORING “THE LORD OF THE RINGS: THE RINGS OF POWER”THE APPENDICES: PART 3FORMING A FELLOWSHIP This is the third of four blog entries chronicling my personal experience scoring the first season of The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power. The first, “Journey to Middle-earth,” can be found here...




bearmccreary.com


----------



## Henning

There's people who wondered about his staff and assistants. Here's a quote for you from the above blog post:
"In order to focus on writing while production occurred, I put complete faith in my team at my studio, Sparks & Shadows. I have spent a decade building up and mentoring this remarkable group, who all demonstrate a passion for music, and an enthusiastic collaborative attitude. On a typical project, particularly for a television show, among the ways in which my team at Sparks & Shadows has helped is by composing additional music cues. This is how the vast majority of big-budget and high-pressure projects are scored in our modern era. I have always strived to ensure that composers writing additional music for me are compensated with both onscreen credit and an appropriate share of the performance royalties. (In the near future, Sparks & Shadows will take ground-breaking steps out of this ‘additional music realm,’ and into the realm of composing projects of their own, as a studio. I am excited to share their big news soon! Fantasy genre fans will be excited about what we are working on together!)

Contrary to how most television is scored today, I personally composed every second of every cue for _The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power_. I wanted to ensure that the audience’s narrative experience here was shaped by a consistent musical voice. I felt that this score was too complex and nuanced to ask even my most experienced writers at Sparks and Shadows to contribute music. And truth be told, writing music for _The Lord of the Rings_ was a lifelong dream, and I wanted every second of musical drama for myself. It was… precious to me."


----------



## Henning

If someone's interested in the orchestration team:








Tutti Music Partners Interview: LOTR The Rings of Power


New episodes air Fridays on Prime Video.




screenrant.com


----------



## Bruhelius

Thanks for posting the articles @Henning I have so far only listened to the OST, but not watched any of the episodes. Trying to do some ear training here to understand what went into it...due to the huge ensembles and interesting choice of instruments, it has enough richness to listen to on its own I think. It is very rare for production music to convince me like this... great work indeed!


----------

