# Sample Modeling - Solo & Ensemble Strings : Tips, Tricks, Demos, Tutorials.



## muziksculp (Dec 21, 2021)

Hi,

Greetings *Sample Modeling : Solo & Ensemble Strings* users, I thought this would be a good place to post your tips, tricks, demos, videos, tutorials, questions, and other related technical details related to this library.

Hopefully it will help us enjoy using this library, and harness it's potential to a higher degree, also share our knowledge, and learn how others are using it. It surely is a deep library, and quite flexible, with so many options, controls, and sound sculpting features, plus the techniques of how to spatialize the library to add depth, and realistic panorama is another important part of using this library.

So, Let's make this happen, I hope you will benefit from this thread's posts, and resources.

I would also like to invite the seasoned SM Solo & Ens. Strings users that have produced official demos for this library, to participate in this thread, I'm sure they have a wealth of useful tips for us.

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## PerryD (Dec 21, 2021)

I was actually testing the new VSL Synchron harp and added S&ES violin, viola, cello and double bass ensembles along with a bassoon & English horn. They almost sound flautando at very low levels. I should have tried with the chamber ensembles. Very short test.


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## muziksculp (Dec 22, 2021)

PerryD said:


> I was actually testing the new VSL Synchron harp and added S&ES violin, viola, cello and double bass ensembles along with a bassoon & English horn. They almost sound flautando at very low levels. I should have tried with the chamber ensembles. Very short test.


Sounds Wonderful 


PerryD said:


> They almost sound flautando at very low levels.


Yes, they do, are you referring to the level you mixed them in, or the low dynamics level via CC11 ? 



PerryD said:


> I should have tried with the chamber ensembles


I'm sure you will like the chamber ensembles, those are the ones I have been checking out, since they are the newcomers to this library. 

The VSL Synchron Harp sounds awesome ! What did you use for the Bassoon and Eng. Horn ? 

Reminded me of Bernard Hermann's scores. 

Thanks for contributing to this thread.


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## PerryD (Dec 22, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Sounds Wonderful
> 
> Yes, they do, are you referring to the level you mixed them in, or the low dynamics level via CC11 ?
> 
> ...


Thanks! Low CC11 (CC2 in my case). I am using S&ES in keyboard mode with CC11 remapped to CC2 so I can use my BC and still take advantage of the new velocity attack ramp in v2. I purchased Synchron woodwinds but those were SWAM v3 bassoon & english horn. I actually prefer the SWAM soloists over VSL!


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## muziksculp (Dec 22, 2021)

PerryD said:


> Thanks! Low CC11 (CC2 in my case). I am using S&ES in keyboard mode with CC11 remapped to CC2 so I can use my BC and still take advantage of the new velocity attack ramp in v2. I purchased Synchron woodwinds but those were SWAM v3 bassoon & english horn. I actually prefer the SWAM soloists over VSL!


Thanks for the feedback.


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## muziksculp (Dec 22, 2021)

Hi,

OK, here is my first contribution to this thread. It's a simple tip, but it is quite an important one. If you haven't done this, I highly recommend you do it.

*TIP : GREATLY IMPROVE THE VELOCITY RESPOSNE of the library.* 

1. Click on the *Velocity Mapping* option.

This is how it looks when you open it :





2. Click on *Calibration button *

3. Now play your keyboard controller keys with as many velocity variations as possible, keep doing that and you will see the curve shape changing, until you see no more changes in the curve, then click the Calibration button again to disable it. 

4. Click on the *Synchronize Ensemble* button. 

This is how my curve looks after playing various velocity levels on my keyboard controller :





Doing this process will greatly improve the response of the SM Solo & Ensemble Strings library to your keyboard playing, and result in much more satisfying results. I then save the Kontakt Instrument as a custom preset so I don't have to do it every time I load a fresh version of the library. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Ivan Duch (Dec 22, 2021)

@Fa, thanks a lot for your response.

I've been demoing VSS2 and Precedence with SM strings lately. Also have been using Panagement for a while now. I'm still experimenting with it all, haven't reached any conclusions.

Yesterday and this morning I've been using Panagement + IR impulses from Waves library. I've been able to keep just the ERs with Reaverb (Reaper's convolution reverb) and handle the tails with Phoenixverb and R2.

Also demoed Waves IR1 but in the end, Reaverb was able to handle all I needed. Looks like crap but it's quite powerful.

My current experimenting is between using just the IR ERs or also the tails and testing combinations of that.

My experience so far is great, though. I particularly like what convolution reverbs do to the library. I feel they add a more organic feeling than algo reverbs. That + playing the same part with different ensemble divisis sound quite realistic to my ears.

As soon as I have something decent I'll post it.


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## I like music (Dec 22, 2021)

Ivan Duch said:


> @Fa, thanks a lot for your response.
> 
> I've been demoing VSS2 and Precedence with SM strings lately. Also have been using Panagement for a while now. I'm still experimenting with it all, haven't reached any conclusions.
> 
> ...


Heh. Funny you wrote this because this week I've built a new template and the first thing on the agenda (and what I planned to test later this week) is to use a combination of Panagement 2 + stock Convo + playing the same line with the 2 or 3 divisis of the chamber strings. I think it'll sound much crisper, something that was missing the last time. 

So my tip (a very basic one) is to load 3 violin 1 chamber sections, then use different IRs for each, then use different vibrato depth + speed + controls on pages 2 + 3.

You'll get decent initial results. I need to test these much more but this has been a good start. 

Only issue is that you'll have a LOT of instances of the strings going at the same time...


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## rogierhofboer (Dec 22, 2021)

https://plugins.iem.at/ came across these, didn’t try them yet. Seems more for 3D audio formats.


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## Ivan Duch (Dec 22, 2021)

I like music said:


> Heh. Funny you wrote this because this week I've built a new template and the first thing on the agenda (and what I planned to test later this week) is to use a combination of Panagement 2 + stock Convo + playing the same line with the 2 or 3 divisis of the chamber strings. I think it'll sound much crisper, something that was missing the last time.
> 
> So my tip (a very basic one) is to load 3 violin 1 chamber sections, then use different IRs for each, then use different vibrato depth + speed + controls on pages 2 + 3.
> 
> ...


Yes, very similar tests on my end, and quite happy with the results so far. I have a "feel like working" and a lazy version so far. For the lazy version, I duplicate the midi and humanize it with some scripts I have for Reaper. But I get better results when playing it. 

I think the most reasonable workflow is probably leaving that for the final touches of the production and freezing those tracks to save on CPU.


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## Markrs (Dec 22, 2021)

rogierhofboer said:


> https://plugins.iem.at/ came across these, didn’t try them yet. Seems more for 3D audio formats.


Room encoder looks very interesting! A quick looks shows these are pretty complex tools will above my ability.


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## rogierhofboer (Dec 22, 2021)

Markrs said:


> Room encoder looks very interesting! A quick looks shows these are pretty complex tools will above my ability.


Looks like you need to feed the ambisonic output of the room encoder to the AIIRdecoder in which you create a speaker setup. I am not at my PC right now, but will play with them later…


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## Tralen (Dec 22, 2021)

Ivan Duch said:


> @Fa, thanks a lot for your response.
> 
> I've been demoing VSS2 and Precedence with SM strings lately. Also have been using Panagement for a while now. I'm still experimenting with it all, haven't reached any conclusions.
> 
> ...


I wonder if VSS2 is now abandonware. There have been complaints of people struggling to get support. It is quite expensive, so I gave up on it due to this.

I really like using Panagement as a positioning tool, it has a natural darkening effect that I really like, and it is very light, specially if you disable the reverb, so you can insert it at every channel.

I also love DearVR as an alternative. It has a very clear definition, and I really enjoy it for brass. I'm still testing it with SM Strings, though, but liking it so far. I usually don't use the built-in Reverb as it has a metallic sound to it, but you can disable the Reverb and ERs separately.

DearVR had a hefty sale just recently. If you end up testing it, you can use DearVR Music instead of DearVR Pro, as the differences are mostly related to ambisonics and the cost is much better.


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## rogierhofboer (Dec 22, 2021)

DearVR seams very similar in functionality compared to the IEM plugins. No idea (yet) how they compare quality-wise.

They also list some ambisonic compatible tools here: https://plugins.iem.at/docs/compatibility/

Maybe we should start a separate thread for spatialisation … it is now ‘polluting’ the SM thread and not SM specific.


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## DANIELE (Dec 23, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> OK, here is my first contribution to this thread. It's a simple tip, but it is quite an important one. If you haven't done this, I highly recommend you do it.
> 
> ...


Good tip but this is useful only if you play in all the notes with your keyboard. If you want to have an hybrid approach and you also draw in the notes maybe it could be difficult.


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## Giorgio Tommasini (Dec 23, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> OK, here is my first contribution to this thread. It's a simple tip, but it is quite an important one. If you haven't done this, I highly recommend you do it.
> 
> ...


Very good tip, Musiksculp. Some small, but important corrections, though. For solo instruments, after Calibration, one must disable the Calibration button and activate the Mapping button, so that the calibration curve is applied to all incoming notes. For Chamber & Ensemble instruments, after carrying out these steps on the first module, one should press the SYNCHRONIZE ENSEMBLE button, and the calibration curve will be applied to all four modules.

Giorgio


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## muziksculp (Dec 23, 2021)

Giorgio Tommasini said:


> Very good tip, Musiksculp. Some small, but important corrections, though. For solo instruments, after Calibration, one must disable the Calibration button and activate the Mapping button, so that the calibration curve is applied to all incoming notes. For Chamber & Ensemble instruments, after carrying out these steps on the first module, one should press the SYNCHRONIZE ENSEMBLE button, and the calibration curve will be applied to all four modules.
> 
> Giorgio


HI @Giorgio Tommasini ,

Thanks for the corrections, I forgot that the Calibration for the Solo Instruments is a bit different, since they do not have a Synchronization option.

The Synchronize Ensemble button must always be pressed when editing the Ensembles, so I thought that was a given, but Thanks for adding that detail to the tip. I added this to my post (Step 4).


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## muziksculp (Dec 23, 2021)

Hi,

Here is a useful summery of how *CC38*, *CC26*, *CC27* and *Velocity* work together In *version 2.0.1* which has changed from the way these used to work in the previous 1.0.2 b version.

*CC38* Values of around 64 (in the range of 55-74) will play *Sustains*, and Velocities under 100.
*CC38* Values Less than 64 (in the range of 0-54) will play *Marcatos*, and Velocities over 100.
*CC38* Values Greater than 64 (in the range of 75-127) will play *Spiccatos*, and Velocities over 100.

* Note The *Spicatto*, and *Marcato* samples are only added when you play velocities over 100. If you play velocities under 100, you only get the normal *sustain* samples.

* Note that the *CC38* values will progressively introduce more or less Marcatos, or Spiccatos in the conditions specified above.

*CC26* Controls the *Duration of the Marcato Attack *so, it is dedicated to Marcato control
*CC27* Controls the *Length of the Spiccato Release *so, it is dedicated to Spiccato control


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## muziksculp (Dec 23, 2021)

Hi,

Just a heads up on the new Ver 2.0.1 library. 

I just got an email with a download link for *Solo Violin* that fixes a bug it had, that under some circumstances it did not properly play some release samples. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## I like music (Dec 23, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> Here is a useful summery of how *CC38*, *CC26*, *CC27* and *Velocity* work together In *version 2.0.1* which has changed from the way these used to work in the previous 1.0.2 b version.
> 
> ...


Thank you. What happens if the velocities are under 100 in your 2nd and 3rd examples?

Thanks!


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## muziksculp (Dec 23, 2021)

I like music said:


> Thank you. What happens if the velocities are under 100 in your 2nd and 3rd examples?
> 
> Thanks!


You are very welcome.

The Spicatto, and Marcato are only added when you play velocities over 100. If you play velocities under 100, you only get the normal sustain.

I should make a note of this just to make this clearer. I hope I answered your question.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## muziksculp (Dec 23, 2021)

Hi @I like music ,

I should also add, that regarding Playing at lower velocities, according to the notes about what's new in version 2.0.1 on the Sample Modeling website:

*Quote :* " _For velocities below 100, a simulation of the progressively rising speed of the bow is implemented. This is accomplished by an ascending ramp for *CC11*. The lower the velocity the wider and slower the ramp_." 

I have to give this detail more attention, and test it to see how it sounds.


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## Ivan Duch (Dec 23, 2021)

I spent the past few days experimenting with IR impulses (all free if anyone is interested) and the library. At this point, my ears are burned, and so I wonder what you think of the comparison between the following phrase going through different reverbs and ensemble sizes.

The last one is BBCSO tree mic without any reverb. For a bit of comparison. Which one do you like the most?

I don't want to give my opinion yet, would love to hear yours. The IR impulse is quite wet as you'll hear, I'm experimenting mostly with how the ERs affect the library timbre and the illusion of big halls and ensembles.


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## muziksculp (Dec 23, 2021)

Ivan Duch said:


> I spent the past few days experimenting with IR impulses (all free if anyone is interested) and the library. At this point, my ears are burned, and so I wonder what you think of the comparison between the following phrase going through different reverbs and ensemble sizes.
> 
> The last one is BBCSO tree mic without any reverb. For a bit of comparison. Which one do you like the most?
> 
> I don't want to give my opinion yet, would love to hear yours. The IR impulse is quite wet as you'll hear, I'm experimenting mostly with how the ERs affect the library timbre and the illusion of big halls and ensembles.


Hi @Ivan Duch,

I listened to the demo, and I like the first two the most.

These demos are playing in more of the high register of the violin's range.

What is your main objective with these tests ? what type of string section sound are you trying to emulate/achieve ?

Which violin section of SM Ens. are you using in these demos, Violins 1, or 2, and do you have the size of the ensemble set to (small, med, large) ?

I can hear how different the BBCSO version sounds, it just sounds like a larger ensemble playing compared to the SM Vlns Ens.

Actually, I'm also experimenting with creating a larger ensemble using SM Ens. Strings, by layering the new Chamber Strings with the String Ens. sections. Maybe even use more than one chamber section to get a more cinematic large ensemble playing, basically I want to achieve a more diffused sound for the violins, and not so much of a focused sounding one, I hope my description makes sense, I couldn't find a better word to describe this. But, basically a more lush, and large cinematic string section. Vibrato also plays a big role here. So, experimenting with the Synchronous type vibrato is also something I will be testing, that is controlled by CC99.

I also think that besides using IR based reverbs, adding a high-quality algorithmic reverb will also improve the overall sound of SM Solo & Ens. Strings.

I will post some audio examples once I have spent some time experimenting with aspect of the library. I also think that placement of the various sections using something like Precedence, or Mir-Pro might be a good strategy. Again, it can get pretty complex, and the choices we have are so many.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## I like music (Dec 23, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @I like music ,
> 
> I should also add, that regarding Playing at lower velocities, according to the notes about what's new in version 2.0.1 on the Sample Modeling website:
> 
> ...


Thanks for your answers! OK, this bit does confuse me a little.

So basically if I want to play a rebow on the same note, I'd set cc38 to around 64, and then basically play a velocity below 100. The lower that velocity, the less audible the bow change?

In the "sustain" scenario, I'm not sure what going above 100 does.

I can't access the library for the next week or so, so trying to get my head around this theoretically!

Thanks for all your help and for starting this thread.


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## Pier-V (Dec 23, 2021)

Hi, everyone on this thread! I'm writing because the idea of using Samplemodeling strings for a chamber orchestra is slowly starting to get my interest, since this library may very well be suited for agile passages... I have a couple of questions:

- Is the chamber orchestra exact size known? I've tried to get this information on the product page, but to no avail;
- Is the excerpt from Capriol Suite the only available demo showcasing the chamber orchestra using the version 2 of the Vst in particular?

Thanks for the attention!


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## muziksculp (Dec 23, 2021)

I like music said:


> In the "sustain" scenario, I'm not sure what going above 100 does.


I'm guessing it doesn't do anything if you play with vel greater than 100 when CC 38 is set to trigger sustains.

Vel > 100 has the effect of adding more spicc, or marc. sample levels if CC38 is set to trigger the Spicc. or Marc. samples.

If you have the 2.0.1 pdf user's manual, which is part of the library documents when you download it, I would recommend a good, and careful study of the user's manual to get a good grasp of the library's features. I printed it, and have it in a folder, that I refer to, and study, it surely helped me a lot to get a clearer picture of all the features, and functions of the library.

i.e. On page 37 of the ver. 2.0.1 user's manual, it explains the Bow Change/Detache mode.

Here is a quote from that section :

" *Bow Change/Detaché*

_This mode is activated by either the sustain pedal (CC64) or by the keyswitch D. In this mode, when releasing a key, the note is prolonged until the same or a different note is pressed. In the first case a bow change will be heard. In the second case a detaché articulation will be reproduced. The duration of either articulation depends on the velocity of the new note, but is also controlled by CC26. Low values of the latter may be necessary for very fast detaché passages. "_

So, if you want a rebow, you just press the sustain pedal, and play the same note again, if you play a different note, you get a detache bowing. Also note that the *velocity* you play the same, or different note, and *CC 26* affect the duration of the detach, or rebowed note. (as mentioned above in the quote). 

I hope I was able to answer your question, and make things a bit clearer/easier to digest.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Ivan Duch (Dec 23, 2021)

Thanks for the feedback @muziksculp!


muziksculp said:


> What is your main objective with these tests ? what type of string section sound are you trying to emulate/achieve ?


To be honest I'm trying to emulate different scenarios and rooms. With the last update, I'm liking the workflow and shorts so much that I'm trying to approach big symphonic ensembles, chamber strings, etc. I think I might be able to use way more than I was using it that way.



muziksculp said:


> Which violin section of SM Ens. are you using in these demos, Violins 1, or 2, and do you have the size of the ensemble set to (small, med, large) ?


I was using Violins 1 large + chamber + solo the dry versions for all + convolution reverb. All using the same midi data humanized with a script. I'm trying to see if I can make the workflow faster by just humanizing rather than replaying.

The second one you liked it just violins 1 ensemble using the ERs and Reverb. The third is chamber alone and the last one is the solo violin. 



muziksculp said:


> basically I want to achieve a more diffused sound for the violins, and not so much of a focused sounding one


Yes, well, that was my goal with that first phrase in the test. I find that for that particular goal playing them in and having several small ensembles works best but I'm trying to minimize the amount of work.



muziksculp said:


> I also think that besides using IR based reverbs, adding a high-quality algorithmic reverb will also improve the overall sound of SM Solo & Ens. Strings.


Agreed, I own R2 and Phoenixverb and have been experimenting with just adding ERs through convolution and then an algo tail. I feel like the ERs from convo reverbs add a lot of life to the timbre of SM. Maybe it's just me.


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## Ivan Duch (Dec 23, 2021)

Pier-V said:


> Hi, everyone on this thread! I'm writing because the idea of using Samplemodeling strings for a chamber orchestra is slowly starting to get my interest, since this library may very well be suited for agile passages... I have a couple of questions:
> 
> - Is the chamber orchestra exact size known? I've tried to get this information on the product page, but to no avail;
> - Is the excerpt from Capriol Suite the only available demo showcasing the chamber orchestra using the version 2 of the Vst in particular?
> ...


I think the bigger and chamber ensembles are both created by using the samples of a single instrument. Might be mistaken there, though.

So, you have a slider to choose the size of the ensembles, an exact number of players isn't stated but it's probably not that important either given the nature of those ensembles.


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## Ivan Duch (Dec 23, 2021)

I like music said:


> Thanks for your answers! OK, this bit does confuse me a little.
> 
> So basically if I want to play a rebow on the same note, I'd set cc38 to around 64, and then basically play a velocity below 100. The lower that velocity, the less audible the bow change?
> 
> ...


For rebows you use the sustain pedal, I do it quite often. Going above 100 for sustains modify the attacks, it either gives them a marcato or a spiccato attack. I've tested this quite a lot and it works like a charm. Sometimes I feel the spiccato attack exceeds the sustain volume too much at max velocity and so I'm using a plugin to limit the velocity I input with my controller.


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## muziksculp (Dec 23, 2021)

Ivan Duch said:


> The second one you liked it just violins 1 ensemble using the ERs and Reverb. The third is chamber alone and the last one is the solo violin.


Hi @Ivan Duch ,

You could try layering i.e. Violins 1, Violins 2, and Ensemble to get a large symphonic string section type sound, I haven't tried this myself, but I think it might be a good idea to try it. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## muziksculp (Dec 23, 2021)

Hi,

Is it possible to emulate *Con Sordino Strings* using this library, for both the Solo & Ensemble Strings ? 

i.e. Could the Timbral-Shaping feature be used for this ? or is it better to use some type of Filter plugin to achieve this ? or ... ?

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## DANIELE (Dec 23, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> Is it possible to emulate *Con Sordino Strings* using this library, for both the Solo & Ensemble Strings ?
> 
> ...


Sordino articulation is available by moving the instrument knob, in the last positions.

EDIT

Wouldn't it be nice to copy all the tips in the first page for a faster reading for all the users?


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## Vardaro (Dec 24, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> Wouldn't it be nice to copy all the tips in the first page for a faster reading for all the user?


In the similar thread on Chris Hein strings I did a copy paste of the best advice into a text file.


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## Ivan Duch (Dec 24, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> Is it possible to emulate *Con Sordino Strings* using this library, for both the Solo & Ensemble Strings ?
> 
> ...


Indeed, as @DANIELE mentioned you can find the sordinos in the knob to switch between instrument IRs. It's on the Controller 4 menu.






Probably the best compromise (and maybe even better and easier to do) is putting together a text file and linking it in the first post. But the thread is still small, we can leave that for when we collect a lot of tips I guess.


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## muziksculp (Dec 24, 2021)

Ivan Duch said:


> Indeed, as @DANIELE mentioned you can find the sordinos in the knob to switch between instrument IRs. It's on the Controller 4 menu.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank You Very Much. 

For some reason, I didn't expect sordino to be included there. I should always check more carefully.


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## DANIELE (Dec 24, 2021)

Is there someone able to make this midi sound convincing?

Use the Chamber Cellos at 85 bpm 4/4.

I voluntarily left all the velocities at the same level and the dynamics too. Here I'm using CC2 but you can use CC11 instead. Try to shape all the controls to get a good result.


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## Ivan Duch (Dec 24, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> Is there someone able to make this midi sound convincing?
> 
> Use the Chamber Cellos at 85 bpm 4/4.
> 
> I voluntarily left all the velocities at the same level and the dynamics too. Here I'm using CC2 but you can use CC11 instead. Try to shape all the controls to get a good result.


Could you add a reference of how you'd like it to sound? I'm gonna give it a try.


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## DANIELE (Dec 24, 2021)

Ivan Duch said:


> Could you add a reference of how you'd like it to sound? I'm gonna give it a try.


I haven't a precise reference but you could listen to the Prelude of the Bach Cello Suite N.1 to understand how it should sound even if that piece is far less repetitive than this one.

It is a repetitive path so you should aim for realism in the first place, it shouldn't sound repetitive but interesting (very difficult). The midi is quantized and pretty flat like it is (as it should be without sculpting it). I'm using a similar passage in the track I'm writing and I still don't like how it sounds but maybe my ears are tired and I'm not able to understand it well anymore.

This is why I proposed you a flat midi file, just to see how you work on it. It should be pretty easy to understand how it should sound.

It is not staccato so you don't have to work on the spiccato/marcato overlay (so CC 38 is useless here), try to work with the other controllers.
You can also change some note here and there but you shouldn't change the mood. I used a long note for the upper ones because of how it works the instrument but you can also use single notes if you prefer.


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## Ivan Duch (Dec 24, 2021)

Interesting line, it's one of those things that would relatively simple for a player but a nightmare for samples. Still, I don't have any other library able to have decent results for something like this.

Of course, what I did is still a far cry from the real thing. It lacks a lot of nuances, but I can't think of anything else to add variation right now. 

Very interested to see how others deal with this sort of line.


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## muziksculp (Dec 24, 2021)

Ivan Duch said:


> Interesting line, it's one of those things that would relatively simple for a player but a nightmare for samples. Still, I don't have any other library able to have decent results for something like this.
> 
> Of course, what I did is still a far cry from the real thing. It lacks a lot of nuances, but I can't think of anything else to add variation right now.
> 
> Very interested to see how others deal with this sort of line.


Did you modulate the bow noise, or other parameters that can change the timbre/color of the sound, and add the little nuances that do make a difference when it comes to realism, I would also think that the timbral-shaping can be another area to look into for adding nuances, color, and more variety to the sound, but that has to be done with a lot of care, and might need quite a bit of time to experiment with, maybe even modulating the instrument IR, to change the character in real time.


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## DANIELE (Dec 24, 2021)

Ivan Duch said:


> Interesting line, it's one of those things that would relatively simple for a player but a nightmare for samples. Still, I don't have any other library able to have decent results for something like this.
> 
> Of course, what I did is still a far cry from the real thing. It lacks a lot of nuances, but I can't think of anything else to add variation right now.
> 
> Very interested to see how others deal with this sort of line.


This is exactly what I meant with this little experiment. Shaping an already interesting melody is easy, shaping a more repetitive figure is more difficult because you have to work a lot on nuances to get a decent result. An expert musician knows what to do to make it interesting but doing it with a virtual instrument (please don't call SM S&ES a library) is another thing.

You did a very good job here, would you mind to share your midi and your settings so they could be useful to others?

I'm curious to see what other users are able to do with the same original midi file. Thank you so much for doing this.


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## Ivan Duch (Dec 24, 2021)

Here's the midi file. I modulated bow noise, attack, velocity, expression, a bit of vibrato and overtones. I also used sustain pedal in some parts. I recorded most of the ccs live with a leap motion and then edited a bit. 

I also used Reaverb (free) with the free Todd-AO impulse from Waves IR1 library. I converted those IR impulses to wav with a python app someone shared in the main Samplemodeling Strings thread. 

With better understanding of the cello I think someone should be able to get a much better result with SM S&ES.


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## Nando Florestan (Dec 24, 2021)

I spent an entire day trying to tame the *cello ensembles* to approximate a typical orchestral sound. The single most important thing that gave me results was to use *a very high value for Distance, like 100*. From there you could go even higher, or maybe dial it down back to ~80, not much less. Unfortunately you have to compensate for the loss of volume, probably by dialing high numbers such as 16 or 20 in the Master volume in Kontakt, but this gives a more typical orchestral sound. Then it took some serious EQing to approximate a reference, but I'm not satisfied yet.

At least I could get better results than with version 1.2. But my attempts still sound weird and certainly don't survive the "next day test".

Also, for the cello ensembles, impulse response n. 5 is my favorite, and I think the first one (which is the default) sounds awful even with distance.

Finally, at least for the cello ensemble, if you dial ensembe size all the way to 127, you're gonna get phasey legato transitions, which go away with smaller ensembles.


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## FireGS (Dec 24, 2021)

Ivan Duch said:


> I spent the past few days experimenting with IR impulses (all free if anyone is interested) and the library. At this point, my ears are burned, and so I wonder what you think of the comparison between the following phrase going through different reverbs and ensemble sizes.
> 
> The last one is BBCSO tree mic without any reverb. For a bit of comparison. Which one do you like the most?
> 
> I don't want to give my opinion yet, would love to hear yours. The IR impulse is quite wet as you'll hear, I'm experimenting mostly with how the ERs affect the library timbre and the illusion of big halls and ensembles.


Super tired, don't have much time to comment otherwise, but this example is very, very, out of phase. Totally negative phase correlation.

EDIT: Example 1, 3, 4, and 6 are phasey. 2 and 5 are OK.


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## Ivan Duch (Dec 24, 2021)

FireGS said:


> Super tired, don't have much time to comment otherwise, but this example is very, very, out of phase. Totally negative phase correlation.
> 
> EDIT: Example 1, 3, 4, and 6 are phasey. 2 and 5 are OK.


Yes, thanks for the feedback. 2 and 5 are just one ensemble and solo instrument. 4 is just the chamber strings. All are using the same reverb except for 2. I wonder what's causing it. Maybe the true stereo reverb experiments I've been doing, the stereo image is probably too wide, don't know.

Any advice on how to avoid phasing when overlaying several ensembles with SM S&ES?

That said, I'm not hearing it that much on my end, but I'm no engineer, that much is clear.


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## DANIELE (Dec 25, 2021)

Nando Florestan said:


> I spent an entire day trying to tame the *cello ensembles* to approximate a typical orchestral sound. The single most important thing that gave me results was to use *a very high value for Distance, like 100*. From there you could go even higher, or maybe dial it down back to ~80, not much less. Unfortunately you have to compensate for the loss of volume, probably by dialing high numbers such as 16 or 20 in the Master volume in Kontakt, but this gives a more typical orchestral sound. Then it took some serious EQing to approximate a reference, but I'm not satisfied yet.
> 
> At least I could get better results than with version 1.2. But my attempts still sound weird and certainly don't survive the "next day test".
> 
> ...


The problem with using high distances is that you loose a lot of sharpness if you want strong sharp short notes.


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## Ivan Duch (Dec 25, 2021)

In case anyone is interested, I pinpointed the phase correlation issues to the reverb actually. They were caused by that particular Todd-AO IR impulse. Thanks for pointing it out @FireGS.


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## Nando Florestan (Dec 26, 2021)

I wonder if the IR can be fixed by inverting polarity of one channel or delaying it a bit...


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## Ivan Duch (Dec 26, 2021)

Nando Florestan said:


> I wonder if the IR can be fixed by inverting polarity of one channel or delaying it a bit...


Will try that one, thank you!


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## PerryD (Dec 28, 2021)

Not a tip or a trick...I sometimes learn from a great fail.  I set out to do a "nice" arrangement of Auld Lang Syne. I truly enjoy using S&ES but I did not like the way the arrangement was going. Before deleting it, I added a piano and tested the update for Symphobia 1 in the second half. Epic fail.  Happy New Year! My resolution is more thoughtful arranging.


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## mozart999uk (Jan 5, 2022)

Does anyone have any tips on achieving soft delicate spiccatos? cc 38 above 64, low cc11, high velocities and shorten the spiccato release time using cc27? This feels a little counter intuitive to play on a keyboard as one would think that playing with lower velocities would create a more delicate sound.

This is a theoretical suggestion. Im isolating and can't get in the studio to try anything. I'm trying to do some research so that when I'm back in the studio i can try some of your suggestions out...


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## Cristian Labelli (Jan 9, 2022)

*Influnce of deterministic pitch modulation on the overall realism of Samplemodeling Strings MIDI mockups.*

Hi everyone! 
I would like to share with you all an ‘advanced’ trick which helped to improve the overall realism of my mockups using Samplemodeling Solo, Chamber & Ensemble Strings. If you find it interesting I’ll be happy to share other ideas/tips. 

I use an excerpt (10sec) of my Rachmaninoff mockup for explanatory purposes. 
Down below you can find 2 different exports: in the first one (A) I manually ‘tuned’ each one of the instruments, changing the pitch in real-time (using a controller - *Neova Ring* or *BBC2* or anything else) and creating a subconscious sense of movement and, naturally, realism. In the second export (B) I simply deleted pitch automations.

I also attach an image of the *pitch variations* programmed in the excerpt A, solo violin.






This is a trick that helps avoiding that annoying effect of artificial parallel movement of the parts, which does not reflect a true human execution.

Personally, once programmed (or performed) the dynamics and the vibrato, I immediately proceed adding the pitch modulation, before adding any other parameter changes.


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## muziksculp (Jan 9, 2022)

Hi @Cristian Labelli ,

Thank You Very Much for contributing to the tips, and tricks thread for Sample Modeling Solo & Ens. Strings.

Listening to the difference between the with, and without pitch modulation being applied to the solo violin I can hear how much more realistic modulating the pitch adds to make it sound more realistic, and humanly performed. 

I'm guessing this tip is more suitable for Solo Strings, or do you also recommend using it for Ensemble Strings ? 

Q. Do you also use the other Pitch modulation parameters that the library offers ? Would you recommend using them as well ?

i.e. Dynamics to Pitch, Attack Detuning, Dynamic Modulation

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## DANIELE (Jan 9, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Cristian Labelli ,
> 
> Thank You Very Much for contributing to the tips, and tricks thread for Sample Modeling Solo & Ens. Strings.
> 
> ...


I second this question, it makes sense with solo instruments but do the trick works with ensemble or chamber strings? From what I know there is already a simulated variation inside the instrument and programming a pitch variation for an ensemble track would make all the instruments of the ensemble vary at the same time.


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## robgb (Jan 9, 2022)

rogierhofboer said:


> https://plugins.iem.at/ came across these, didn’t try them yet. Seems more for 3D audio formats.


Thanks for this. The room plugin is excellent.


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## Trevor Meier (Jan 10, 2022)

Cristian Labelli said:


> *Influnce of deterministic pitch modulation on the overall realism of Samplemodeling Strings MIDI mockups.*
> 
> Hi everyone!
> I would like to share with you all an ‘advanced’ trick which helped to improve the overall realism of my mockups using Samplemodeling Solo, Chamber & Ensemble Strings. If you find it interesting I’ll be happy to share other ideas/tips.
> ...


This is a great. I’m also curious about your recommended approach to pitch for ensembles. 

And I’d love to hear more tips from you!


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## Cristian Labelli (Jan 10, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Cristian Labelli ,
> 
> Thank You Very Much for contributing to the tips, and tricks thread for Sample Modeling Solo & Ens. Strings.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your feedback, really appreciated.



muziksculp said:


> Q. Do you also use the other Pitch modulation parameters that the library offers ? Would you recommend using them as well ?


Yes, I keep using modulation parameters, sometimes enhancing the effect sometime just reducing it. I find them extremely useful, granting a constant 'human modulation' which helps me concentrating on the 'macro' manual smooth pitch variations. 

Concerning the use of pitch modulation for chamber/ensembles, (and also replying to @Trevor Meier) I drastically reduce the detuning, but still use it the same way. I could say it's certainly matter of taste, but I find it incredibly powerful as a trick.

Down below you can see all the smooth variations of pitch put together (Chamber Strings, Warlock, Capriol Suite). In this case I used the Neova Ring.


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## muziksculp (Jan 10, 2022)

Cristian Labelli said:


> Thank you for your feedback, really appreciated.
> 
> 
> Yes, I keep using modulation parameters, sometimes enhancing the effect sometime just reducing it. I find them extremely useful, granting a constant 'human modulation' which helps me concentrating on the 'macro' manual smooth pitch variations.
> ...


 @Cristian Labelli 

Thank You for the helpful feedback.


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## mozart999uk (Jan 19, 2022)

Hi Christian. Thanks for your tips. Can I ask how you set up the reverb placement for your Rachmaninoff excerpt?

I'd also be very interested in any tips for producing delicate spiccatos....

Would you be interested in sharing your midi for the Rach?


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## mozart999uk (Jan 20, 2022)

Has anyone else noticed that on solo violin, changing the pitch temporarily kills the vib? I haven't tried the other strings yet


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## Giorgio Tommasini (Jan 20, 2022)

mozart999uk said:


> Has anyone else noticed that on solo violin, changing the pitch temporarily kills the vib? I haven't tried the other strings yet


Mozart999uk,

this is on purpose. Vibrato is not killed, but reduced in proportion to the first derivative of the pitchbend. The aim is to mimic the behaviour of a real player, who can maintain the vibrato on slow movements of the finger, but generally interrupts it when rapidly moving to a different position.


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## Leandro Gardini (Jan 21, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Cristian Labelli ,
> 
> I'm guessing this tip is more suitable for Solo Strings, or do you also recommend using it for Ensemble Strings ?


The pitch variation of real players is never the same. So, using two chamber strings programmed slightly differently will yield the best result in that case. A solo violin on top of them would also improve the trick.
Just be careful to not overdo it.


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## Cristian Labelli (Jan 21, 2022)

mozart999uk said:


> Hi Christian. Thanks for your tips. Can I ask how you set up the reverb placement for your Rachmaninoff excerpt?
> 
> I'd also be very interested in any tips for producing delicate spiccatos....
> 
> Would you be interested in sharing your midi for the Rach?


Hi @mozart999uk

I'm fixing the MIDI files, they will be available soon. 
About the placement, I used 2 sends.
One for the tails: Altiverb (Post-fader, pre-pan, Palace Chapel, 92ms pre-delay);
One for the ERs: SP2016 Reverb (Pre-fader, Stereo Room).

In this particular case I set the ER and the Reverb of the Virtual Instruments to '0', in order to control every single aspect of the ambience, simulating a real close-mic recording (as I actually did for the real performance, using -as you can see- the DPAs 4099)

*EDIT:* The 4 DPAs are not the only microphones I used: I also employed a Blumlein (AKG 414 Xlii) placed at the center of the nave.


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## muziksculp (Jan 22, 2022)

Hi,

It's very quiet here lately. 

So, how are Sample Modeling Solo & Ens. Strings 2.0.1 users getting along with this library ? 

Are you using it more for the Solo Strings, or Ensemble Strings ? Any new tips, or anything exciting that you discovered about ver 2.0.1 ? 

I would love it if Sample Modeling would post more In-Depth video tutorials, and tips on YouTube, or Vimeo. This would be so helpful, and useful for many users of this library. 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## muziksculp (Jan 22, 2022)

Hi,

Any feedback/info. on what has changed in the *Timbral Shaping* feature in version 2.0.1 compared to the previous version 1.0.2 b ? 

I recall that this was one of the key features that ver. 2.0.1 improved, but there is not much info. about what has been improved/changed from the previous version. 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## muziksculp (Jan 23, 2022)

Hi,

Anyone able to get portamento to work with the Solo Cello V 2.0.1 ?

For some odd reason I can not get any Portamento, when playing low velocity legato, I set the portamento time with CC5, but nothing seems to get the Portamento transition to sound.

Any feedback on this detail would be appreciated.

*UPDATE: OK, just figured this out. I needed to dial CC5 to a large value to hear it, i.e. 100 or over.*

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## muziksculp (Jan 23, 2022)

Hi,

The more I experiment with this library, the more I'm addicted to it. So many pleasant surprises keep happening. I'm discovering a lot of new things as I try to find the magic formula to make these instruments shine, and sing.

I'm currently using MIR-Pro Teledex Stage for positioning, and early reflections, and an additional Algorithmic Reverb for the tails, I really like what I'm hearing so far.

One of my main goals is to use Pitchbend for vibrato, instead of the vibrato feature the instruments offer. (which @Cristian Labelli mentioned earlier in this thread) I think this is a key to achieving very realistic sounding performances. I'm trying to decide what physical controller to use for the pitchbend performance.

Anyone using Pitchbend instead of vibrato ? if Yes, what controller are you using to create the pitchbend data in real time ?

I'm also curious what others are using for instrument placement ? and alternative HW Controllers for performing various CC data, i.e. Pitchbend, Dynamics, ...etc. 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## Giorgio Tommasini (Jan 24, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> Anyone able to get portamento to work with the Solo Cello V 2.0.1 ?
> 
> ...


Muziksculp,

portamento in all our instruments, including Solo, Chamber & Ensemble Strings v. 2.0.1, can be controlled either by the velocity of the overlapped note, or by CC5, or both, in any proportion.




It is usually, and per default, controlled by velocity. This is the preferred mode when using a keyboard or a breath controller. When the overlapped note velocity is difficult to control, as in windcontroller mode, it can be assigned to CC5. 




Both parameters may affect the duration of portamento at any ratio, even though this may turn a bit impractical.




Most importantly, the overall duration of portamento is also controlled by CC26, which acts as a multiplier, over a range of 50% for CC26 = 0 to 200% for CC26 = 127.

Best,
Giorgio


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## DANIELE (Jan 24, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> what controller are you using to create the pitchbend data in real time ?


I don't have it because it is not so easy to buy one in Italy but I think that Leap Motion would be a very good choice for vibrato. You can emulate the hand fast movements and link them to pitch to get the results you need. Maybe someone that has it could help you more.


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## mozart999uk (Jan 24, 2022)

Cristian Labelli said:


> (as I actually did for the real performance, using -as you can see- the DPAs 4099)
> 
> *EDIT:* The 4 DPAs are not the only microphones I used: I also employed a Blumlein (AKG 414 Xlii) placed at the center of the nave.


Thank you! Very useful indeed. I'm not quite clear what you mean about the "real performance" and the DPA's vs 414's. I understand the mic techniques but where are you applying these?


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## Ivan Duch (Jan 24, 2022)

I've used pitch bend + leap motion around a month ago for vibrato. I feel it works great for the soloists but not so much for the ensembles. That said, I rarely use that option and normally go with the inbuilt vibrato, don't know, I guess it's more convenient. 

@muziksculp, could you share some examples of how it sounds with MIR? I'm very curious about that one + samplemodeling and infinite series.


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## DANIELE (Jan 24, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> I've used pitch bend + leap motion around a month ago for vibrato. I feel it works great for the soloists but not so much for the ensembles. That said, I rarely use that option and normally go with the inbuilt vibrato, don't know, I guess it's more convenient.
> 
> @muziksculp, could you share some examples of how it sounds with MIR? I'm very curious about that one + samplemodeling and infinite series.


For the ensembles makes sense, the built in vibrato acts slightly different on the internal groups to give the feeling of a light asynchrony of the ensemble. If you control the pitchbend directly you get an unrealistic synced vibrato of all the virtual players.

As Cristian stated some post ago he use a very light touch of the pitch control with the ensemble (not for the vibrato but to emulating the detuning that is naturally happening when a string player plays) and a stronger one for the solos.


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## Edu (Jan 24, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> 'm currently using MIR-Pro Teledex Stage for positioning, and early reflections, and an additional Algorithmic Reverb for the tails, I really like what I'm hearing so far.


Hello Muziksculp,
I'm just learning to play this library and I'm trying to position it on MIR Pro Synchron Stage. Could you share more information about how you are using SA on MIR Pro? Are you using the ER from SA? For algorithmic reverb are you using Miracle?
Me too are very interested to have some of your examples of SA on MIR Pro.
Thanks a lot,
Eduardo


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## muziksculp (Jan 24, 2022)

DANIELE said:


> As Cristian stated some post ago he use a very light touch of the pitch control with the ensemble (not for the vibrato but to emulating the detuning that is naturally happening when a string player plays) and a stronger one for the solos.


Thanks for the feedback.

I'm guessing an easy way to achieve these slight pitch variations for the Ensemble is by just manually drawing them in with the mouse. Studio One Pro 5 allows me to scale down, and even stretch/deform the CC data in various ways, I think I will give it a try.

For Soloists, I think there are other ways of getting a more realistic vibrato via Pitchbend by using a dedicated HW controller.

Here is video of @Cristian Labelli using the TEC BBC2 Breathcontroller and his hand shaking motions to trigger the pitcbend CCs that the BBC2 triggers due to shaking it with his Left-Hand like he is playing a real vibrato gesture, (Triggering the Horizontal Tilt of BBC2, assigned to Pitch) which fluctuates over time, and sounds much more realistic than using the built-in vibrato feature of the Instrument. I might give this a try since I have a TEC BBC2.



This pic shows the Pitchbend CC Data he is generating with the Left-Hand Horizontal shaking motion, you can see the shape of the pitchbend data in the pic below, that he uses on the Solo Violin performance.


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## DANIELE (Jan 24, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> I'm guessing an easy way to achieve these slight pitch variations for the Ensemble is by just manually drawing them in with the mouse. Studio One Pro 5 allows me to scale down, and even stretch/deform the CC data in various ways, I think I will give it a try.
> 
> ...



Ah yeah, I remember that video. I also have a breath controller and I promised me to try this technique. Then I forgot it because...well...because...what were we talking about?


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## muziksculp (Jan 24, 2022)

DANIELE said:


> Ah yeah, I remember that video. I also have a breath controller and I promised me to try this technique. Then I forgot it because...well...because...what were we talking about?


LOL.. Same here. I have a the BBC2 TEC breath controller, but always forget to use it like this with Sample Modeling Strings. 

I will be testing it soon, and also post some audio of how my placement and reverb treatment sounds using MIR-Pro.


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## Windbag (Jan 24, 2022)

I have tried this, and while terribly clever...the video may create an impression of greater utility than really exists there. He's basically using acceleration to 'fool' a pitch sensor, which is going to have inherent limitations. It won't tolerate slower rates (I prefer more controlled, generally slower vibrato personally) and is difficult to specify skew, which I've found to be a fairly powerful expressive tool.

Another thing that may be either be annoying or helpful (with respect to the above about pitch variation) is that head tilt isn't a precisely-centering control. You can get pretty close with sensitivity and curve settings, but pitch WILL wander when you're not thinking about it

I pretty quickly reverted to Roli for pitch control, which BTW I'd _really love_ to see implemented in SMSES, even if just for the solo instruments.


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## Trevor Meier (Jan 24, 2022)

Windbag said:


> I have tried this, and while terribly clever...the video may create an impression of greater utility than really exists there. He's basically using acceleration to 'fool' a pitch sensor, which is going to have inherent limitations. It won't tolerate slower rates (I prefer more controlled, generally slower vibrato personally) and is difficult to specify skew, which I've found to be a fairly powerful expressive tool.
> 
> Another thing that may be either be annoying or helpful (with respect to the above about pitch variation) is that head tilt isn't a precisely-centering control. You can get pretty close with sensitivity and curve settings, but pitch WILL wander when you're not thinking about it
> 
> I pretty quickly reverted to Roli for pitch control, which BTW I'd _really love_ to see implemented in SMSES, even if just for the solo instruments.


How do you have your Roli assigned for doing pitch control?


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## Windbag (Jan 24, 2022)

Trevor Meier said:


> How do you have your Roli assigned for doing pitch control?


Essentially you change the pitch axis to 2 in the Roli dashboard.

The lateral (X) axis is used for pitch – as on a keyboard, just continuously – thus the standard recipe is to change the driven instrument's pitch bend range to 48 to match the surface of the board. I can't seem to find a way to increase the pitch bend range in the SM instruments I have (brass) so fortunately reducing the output range of the Roli ALSO reduces the effective throw, or how far your finger(s) must move to reach the limit of the pitch bend, to match the key spacing.

This actually works great and really only leaves out glissando/portamento in terms of being able to actually directly play things in. Vibrato and (to some degree) justifying chords pretty doable...just requires having the Roli Dashboard open so I can change that value as I go back and forth between VIs.


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## Ivan M. (Jan 26, 2022)

Reaper users: I've made keyswitch and CC name maps. All names of CC not used (not documented) are reset to empty, so it's easy to find SM one's. Since I made it, might as well share it, hopefully it's useful to someone. And hopefully there are no errors 

If you don't know where/how: 
Right click in the empty area just above the piano-roll keyboard, File - Note/CC Names - Load.
For easier access, put the files in the default reaper location: 
<reaper resources path>/MIDINoteNames/. This Reaper resources path can be found by opening reaper and then Options/Show Reaper resources path in Explorer/Finder.


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## Tralen (Jan 26, 2022)

Ivan M. said:


> Reaper users: I've made keyswitch and CC name maps. All names of CC not used (not documented) are reset to empty, so it's easy to find SM one's. Since I made it, might as well share it, hopefully it's useful to someone. And hopefully there are no errors
> 
> If you don't know where/how:
> Right click in the empty area just above the piano-roll keyboard, File - Note/CC Names - Load.
> ...


I shared the Note/CCs previously on that other thread.


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## Bruhelius (Jan 26, 2022)

@Ivan Duch Sorry to bother, would you be able to locate that python app link by any chance? I don’t seem to find it…thanks!


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## william81723 (Jan 27, 2022)

Honestly... Although everyone's enthusiasm is on Spitfire Appassionata now, my favorite expressive strings library is still SM Strings.
And the new spiccatos sound excellent. (This demo is my new case.,so I can't post the whole music haha.)


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## I like music (Jan 27, 2022)

william81723 said:


> Honestly... Although everyone's enthusiasm is on Spitfire Appassionata now, my favorite expressive strings library is still SM Strings.
> And the new spiccatos sound excellent. (This demo is my new case.,so I can't post the whole music haha.)


Chamber ones? And did you overlay multiple "divisi" instances of the strings or just ootb ones? 

Really liked it


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## philippe goi (Jan 27, 2022)

Hello! here is a quick chamber strings test with MIR PRO synchron stage. (excerpt from SIBELIUS)
View attachment SampleModeling Chamber Strings and MIR PRO synchron stage.mp4


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## william81723 (Jan 27, 2022)

I like music said:


> Chamber ones? And did you overlay multiple "divisi" instances of the strings or just ootb ones?
> 
> Really liked it


Yes Chamber. Just a simple quartet section(Vn1 Vn2 Va Vc).
I didn't do any extra processing.Just draw many MIDI CCs.
The script of SM Strings is good enough to handle almost all situations.


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## muziksculp (Jan 27, 2022)

Hi @william81723 ,

Wonderful sounding demo. Thanks for sharing


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## PerryD (Jan 30, 2022)

I was playing with IK Sunset Sound Studio reverb & S&ES dry presets. Using the large live room, I was getting kind of a nice "vintage" string sound. A bit reverb heavy (especially isolated). Violins left, Violas Center and Cellos Right.


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## muziksculp (Jan 30, 2022)

PerryD said:


> I was playing with IK Sunset Sound Studio reverb & S&ES dry presets. Using the large live room, I was getting kind of a nice "vintage" string sound. A bit reverb heavy (especially isolated). Violins left, Violas Center and Cellos Right.


Hi @PerryD ,

This sounds wonderful. Thanks for sharing. 

I Love the vintage string sound you got in this track, using the IK Sunset Sound Studio Reverb. I don't have this reverb, have you tried using other reverbs to get this type of vintage character ? and Do you feel the IK reverb is the main reason you are able to achieve this vintage sound ? 

Just curious. 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## PerryD (Jan 30, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @PerryD ,
> 
> This sounds wonderful. Thanks for sharing.
> 
> ...


Thanks! Certainly not the main reason but the Sunset Reverbs definitely have a unique character. I usually use FabFilter Pro R for orchestral strings.


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## Windbag (Jan 31, 2022)

Quick Divisi question, since I've gotten accustomed to (spoiled by) the LASS 3-part engine:

With the ensemble patches, are you guys playing multiple voices to the same patch, and is there any 'ensemble size' accommodation for the number of concurrent voices to prevent an apparent doubling of instruments?

Or are you playing/programming in 1st and 2nd parts to separate instances? If so, is there color/body IR variation available for the ensemble patches to prevent either phasing or an overly homogeneous sound in unison lines?

EDIT: OK I see ensemble and chamber notes about 1st and 2nd violins that I'd missed before...are you using that successfully? What about viola and celli?


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## robgb (Jan 31, 2022)

DANIELE said:


> I don't have it because it is not so easy to buy one in Italy but I think that Leap Motion would be a very good choice for vibrato. You can emulate the hand fast movements and link them to pitch to get the results you need. Maybe someone that has it could help you more.


I would personally advise against Leap Motion controller. I returned one recently because as much as I liked the way it worked, it just didn't work consistently. Too often I'd have to reset it or pat it with the palm of my hand to get it to respond. It got to the point that I just couldn't take it anymore so I asked for a refund.


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## AlbertSmithers (Jan 31, 2022)

lots of lovely demos on this page, these strings really bring a lot of humanity, no doubt due to how detailed you can make them sound.


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## muziksculp (Feb 1, 2022)

william81723 said:


> Honestly... Although everyone's enthusiasm is on Spitfire Appassionata now, my favorite expressive strings library is still SM Strings.


Do you think SM Ensembles can emulate Spitfire's Appassionata Strings Legato character/sound ?

Anyone tried to do this using SM Ensemble Strings ?


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## william81723 (Feb 1, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Do you think SM Ensembles can emulate Spitfire's Appassionata Strings Legato character/sound ?
> 
> Anyone tried to do this using SM Ensemble Strings ?


Of course yes and SM Strings can do more options than Spitfire's Appassionata.
Just note three things：
1.CC11's curve between two notes is important to that lyrical style legato.
2.We need to draw some extra automation on the fader when we use portamento, because SM strings' portamento's volume at the middle of the process is a little bit too low in some situations(not audible enough).
3.We can only emulate the "legato" and the "performance",but the tone can't be emulated.
Spitfire's Appassionata has a really good tone with AIR Studio. Actually I love that sound haha!! If I want that strings tone,I'll still go for Spitfire's Appassionata~~


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## muziksculp (Feb 1, 2022)

william81723 said:


> Of course yes and SM Strings can do more options than Spitfire's Appassionata.
> Just note three things：
> 1.CC11's curve between two notes is important to that lyrical style legato.
> 2.We need to draw some extra automation on the fader when we use portamento, because SM strings' portamento's volume at the middle of the process is a little bit too low in some situations(not audible enough).
> ...


Good points. 

I wonder how close we can get to the tone of Appassionata using SM's Timbral Shaping feature, EQ, ..etc.


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## Bruhelius (Feb 1, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Good points.
> 
> I wonder how close we can get to the tone of Appassionata using SM's Timbral Shaping feature, EQ, ..etc.


I am not an expert (Arne Wallander and Dietz would have a word to say on this and point to another discussion thread on the topic of emulating acoustic spaces), but I feel strongly about being able to approximate the sound of such a very similar space like Air Studios using the technology we have available today...for example the MIR Pro/3D technology in combination with some natural-sounding algo reverb finishes on the market. You can also add more ERs using VSS2.0

For me, I have no use for a baked-in room sound that is full of dynamic cross-fade and stereo imaging artifacts (such as the BBCSO). I personally would only go for a good dry sounding starting point like SM/AM and then weasel my way into a virtual room placement. I like the color of most flagship string libraries out on the market, but I find them all to be not workable, apart from the short articulations. 
The new SM 2.x update is simply amazing to my ears. There is nothing more that I would want from a strings library other than drizzling a bit of AM strings in the mix.

I simply can't deal with the fact of NOT having FULL control over:
expression, pitch, vibrato rate, vibrato depth, portamento, bow position... and...upbow/down bow.

I don't care about the room. I can add that later. Alan Myerson did it with just close-mics, so then so can we. I don't buy into the yet-another-strings library with baked in room sound phasing frenzy.


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## william81723 (Feb 1, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Good points.
> 
> I wonder how close we can get to the tone of Appassionata using SM's Timbral Shaping feature, EQ, ..etc.


Honestly, I think it's hard.
Just let yourself stretch freely in making music ha...!!
Make a tone you like and enjoy composing with it~~

SM's Timbral Shaping feature has its limit. I found that if we want to make a specific strings sound(or tone), different strings(I mean like G,D,A,E on violins) will need different shapes. If sometimes we get the result we want with the timbral shaping tool on a string,that will affect other strings to become the sound I don't want.(also EQ)
So~~~~ again, just make a custom sound you like.


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## muziksculp (Feb 1, 2022)

Bruhelius said:


> I simply can't deal with the fact of NOT having FULL control over:
> expression, pitch, vibrato rate, vibrato depth, portamento, bow position... and...upbow/down bow.


Same here. I agree. Once you use a virtual instrument that offers all these controls, it's hard to go back to traditional sample libraries, with clumsy, and limited controls, and jigsaw puzzle articulation systems that have to be stitched together to get something musical happening. 

That's one of the main reasons I'm 200% in favor of using physical modeling and hybrid sampling with PM Instruments. I'm currently using SWAM and SM instruments, and can't be happier at what I'm able to achieve with them, compared to traditional sample libraries. 

I agree that the spatial component is something that can be dealt with, given the advances we have today, and something like MIR-3D when it is released will be another big step in the right direction. I'm also very exited to know that Audio Modeling is working on SWAM Ensemble Strings, which for me, is one of the most exciting new virtual instruments coming out this year. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Bruhelius (Feb 1, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Same here. I agree. Once you use a virtual instrument that offers all these controls, it's hard to go back to traditional sample libraries, with clumsy, and limited controls, and jigsaw puzzle articulation systems that have to be stitched together to get something musical happening.
> 
> That's one of the main reasons I'm 200% in favor of using physical modeling and hybrid sampling with PM Instruments. I'm currently using SWAM and SM instruments, and can't be happier at what I'm able to achieve with them, compared to traditional sample libraries.
> 
> ...


Yes, and not to forget that you can use your own IRs to color the timbre (even automate the wet/dry balance) to achieve the desired sound you want. There are plenty of IRs out there and you can also make your own. No need to feel stuck with what SM/AM provides.


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## muziksculp (Feb 2, 2022)

Bruhelius said:


> Yes, and not to forget that you can use your own IRs to color the timbre (even automate the wet/dry balance) to achieve the desired sound you want. There are plenty of IRs out there and you can also make your own. No need to feel stuck with what SM/AM provides.


Yes, that's very true. I'm aware of that, but I haven't been experimenting with applying IRs to SM/AM Instruments. I will most likely try doing that as well. 

I always find experimenting with these type of instruments, and trying to see what I can achieve with them very exciting, fascinating, and lots of fun


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## Erik (Feb 2, 2022)

Herewith two versions of a piece by Stephen Barton: South by South-West, once written as a demo for the discontinued DVZ-strings. They seem to be disappeared afaik. This piece always has been a _string library killer_ as it needs so mant features.

I have made many times mockups of this energetic piece with almost all string libraries on my HD, but this one, with the SampleModeling brings this piece really to life. It is amazing how details appear where needed, how individual players are almost audible, whereas the ensemble sound don't suffer from this. At your service: a version with Chamber & Solo strings, plus a version with the Ensemble added. For your interest: the vibrato rate and depth in the Chamber strings have been customized (lower settings via a transformer script in Cubase). It goes soon ove the top, that's why.

I hope you'll enjoy these ones!


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## Tralen (Feb 2, 2022)

Erik said:


> Herewith two versions of a piece by Stephen Barton: South by South-West, once written as a demo for the discontinued DVZ-strings. They seem to be disappeared afaik. This piece always has been a _string library killer_ as it needs so mant features.
> 
> I have made many times mockups of this energetic piece with almost all string libraries on my HD, but this one, with the SampleModeling brings this piece really to life. It is amazing how details appear where needed, how individual players are almost audible, whereas the ensemble sound don't suffer from this. At your service: a version with Chamber & Solo strings, plus a version with the Ensemble added. For your interest: the vibrato rate and depth in the Chamber strings have been customized (lower settings via a transformer script in Cubase). It goes soon ove the top, that's why.
> 
> I hope you'll enjoy these ones!


Very nice to hear SM on this.

I remember this piece being used as _the_ test on VSL forums when LASS was first released. I still have all the audio files saved. The VSL chamber was clearly my favorite.


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## Ivan Duch (Feb 2, 2022)

I wonder in which ways are you using these strings for your own productions.

In my own productions, I haven't been able to use the ensembles by themselves, not for lack of trying, though. They always have this uncanny/organ-like timbre to my ears that I can't stand for the final products. Better IRs help, but the base timbre is still the same and I end up always layering them or just using them for sketching.

I still tend to find uses for it when all my other libraries fail, for some particular lines that require lots of expression or some effects like slow legato trills.

Also, when I try to layer solo strings for building ensembles or several ensembles I get quite a bi of phasing and haven't been able to fix that properly, any ideas for that?


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## muziksculp (Feb 2, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> I wonder in which ways are you using these strings for your own productions.
> 
> In my own productions, I haven't been able to use the ensembles by themselves, not for lack of trying, though. They always have this uncanny/organ-like timbre to my ears that I can't stand for the final products. Better IRs help, but the base timbre is still the same and I end up always layering them or just using them for sketching.
> 
> ...


Hi @Ivan Duch ,

I'm still sculpting this library to my taste. Lots of careful crafting so far to get violins 1 & 2 to my taste.

This library imho. requires some audio engineering to achieve the type of strings sound you fancy, especially the ensembles. I will post some info. and audio clip of my progress with the ensemble strings when I feel I'm ready, next I'm tackling the ensemble Violas and Celli, then Basses.

So far, I'm finding that using a physical placement software, i.e. MIR-Pro in my case is one of the key components, in addition to a good sounding Reverb, be it Algorithmic, or Convolution based. I'm using the MIR-Pro Teledex Stage for placement, and early reflections, which are based on where you place the string sections, and their proximity from the mics, plus other parameters in MIR-Pro, such as the Wet/Dry ratio.

The other Reverb I'm using for the RT is Altiverb, using the Zlin Concert Hall preset, and sending the instruments to it at around (-8.0 db)

The next task is to tweak the SM Ensembes themseves, i.e. for VLNs 2 , I tweaked the Timbral Shaping parameters, another important detail is I boosted the St1 Output of each instance of SM Ensembles by 4.1 dbs , and Took down AUX 1 output fader all the way down, so there is no FX output from the Kontakt instrument.

Here is a pic showing the Timbral Shaping settings for VLNS 2, and The OUTPUT setting of the faders.

I will post more about my settings, in the coming days, and also some audio to show what I have been able to achieve with the SM Ensemble Strings.





Here is a pic of Altiverb Preset Zlin Hall :


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## DANIELE (Feb 3, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> So far, I'm finding that using a physical placement software, i.e. MIR-Pro in my case is one of the key components, in addition to a good sounding Reverb, be it Algorithmic, or Convolution based.


This!


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## Saxer (Feb 3, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Ivan Duch ,
> 
> I'm still sculpting this library to my taste. Lots of careful crafting so far to get violins 1 & 2 to my taste.
> 
> ...


Let's hear it.


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## muziksculp (Feb 3, 2022)

Saxer said:


> Let's hear it.


I will post some audio in a few days time. Keep an eye on this thread. 👁️


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## Ivan Duch (Feb 3, 2022)

Thanks a lot @muziksculp!

MIR is a bit outside of my budget right now, but as @Saxer, I'd love to hear the results.

*One thought:*

What do you guys say if we all test different approaches together for creating an ensemble sound and share the audio for comparison and communal learning?

We could, for instance, aim all together for a chamber sound, ala Spitfire Chamber Strings, a studio sound ala CSS, or something more symphonic like Berlin or Spitfire Symphonic Strings and share settings.

Of course, like @william81723 I don't think that's totally possible but while working I keep finding scenarios where my sample libraries fail and I reach for SM to fix the issue.

I did some more tests today but I still feel like I can't get the sound I like, layering it with my other libraries fixes it, though.

I get the impression the phase-alignment of the strings (it is phase-aligned, right?) kills the timbre a bit, starting with the solo strings. So even if I build ensembles from solo strings alone it doesn't work well.


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## muziksculp (Feb 3, 2022)

@Ivan Duch,

You are very welcome. 

My first goal is to achieve a sound/timbre and character with SM Ensemble Strings that I personally like, with no relation to other libraries, or acoustic spaces. 

I think once I'm able to achieve this goal, it will be easier to get more fancy, and try to emulate other String library characteristics, like CSS, SCS, SSS, ..etc. Plus remember that we have access to Vlns 1, Vlns 2, Vlas Celli, Basses of various sizes via IR settings, also Chamber Strings, and Solo Strings, which give us a lot of layering possibilities to experiment with. Yes, this takes time, that's why I'm not rushing to post anything until I feel I have achieved my first goal. 



Ivan Duch said:


> What do you guys say if we all test different approaches together for creating an ensemble sound and share the audio for comparison and communal learning?


I like your suggestion, but I need more time to post very useful info./tips. But I surely will do this when I'm ready, maybe other SM Solo & Ens. users who have spent more time with this library can post their audio example/s, with how they achieved the sound in the demo, approaches, tips, ..etc. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Ivan Duch (Feb 3, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> My first goal is to achieve a sound/timbre and character with SM Ensemble Strings that I personally like, with no relation to other libraries, or acoustic spaces.


Yes, totally get you. The only reason I try to bring it closer to other libraries is that I still rely on certain aspects of them, like shorts, specific articulations, the room ambiance, or some character of its timbre. 

And to whoever is reading this and is considering the library, don't get me wrong, it is definitely useful. 

I find lots of uses for it. But it has its limitations like any other libraries I have. The only thing with this one is that it has so many potential options to work on its timbre that you never lose hope of finding new tricks.


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## muziksculp (Feb 3, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> But it has its limitations like any other libraries I have. The only thing with this one is that it has so many potential options to work on its timbre that you never lose hope of finding new tricks.


I would add that SM Solo & Ensemble Strings has much less limitations compared to many strings libraries out there, and I have a lot of Strings Libraries, but this, and SWAM Solo Strings are the ones that fascinate me the most, they are very flexible, and can do things none of the other sampled string libraries can do. You just have to be prepared to dive in, they are both deep, and require experimentation, time spent practicing to perform with them, not just mousing in CC data.


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## muziksculp (Feb 3, 2022)

Hi,

Here is another simple, yet very useful tip.

Using CC11 (Dynamics), when you have the fader at zero, you can still hear the very lowest dynamic sounding, and if you stop playing the note, the lowest dynamic sound at very low volume dies abruptly, so if you want to have a more *Niente functionality*, to end the note smoothly to silence, just use CC7 (Volume) with CC11 (Dynamics) when you are closer to the lowest values of CC11 to get a smooth and gradual transition from the lowest dynamic to silence.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Bruhelius (Feb 3, 2022)

Honestly, what I would do is write dedicated midi lanes for divisi A and B. This way you have more options to layer up different timbres. The midi event millisecond delay timing divA vs divB can be modulated with an LFO. You can then also blend in a different mic or body IR for the respective sections. The vibrato rate and amount needs to be different as well.
If you don't have the cash for MIR pro, you can work with slapback delays for each subsection (emulating two wall ERs). I would experiment with L/R panning, EQ (air absorption) and use a short IR that models ERs to create the sense of depth for the divisi B. You can stack up plugins that come with your DAW to emulate this. There are some good free plugins out there too! https://plugins4free.com/plugin/3016/


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## Bruhelius (Feb 3, 2022)

Erik said:


> Herewith two versions of a piece by Stephen Barton: South by South-West, once written as a demo for the discontinued DVZ-strings. They seem to be disappeared afaik. This piece always has been a _string library killer_ as it needs so mant features.
> 
> I have made many times mockups of this energetic piece with almost all string libraries on my HD, but this one, with the SampleModeling brings this piece really to life. It is amazing how details appear where needed, how individual players are almost audible, whereas the ensemble sound don't suffer from this. At your service: a version with Chamber & Solo strings, plus a version with the Ensemble added. For your interest: the vibrato rate and depth in the Chamber strings have been customized (lower settings via a transformer script in Cubase). It goes soon ove the top, that's why.
> 
> I hope you'll enjoy these ones!


@Erik , we owe you an answer don't we? 

Very interesting and very cool piece. I'd love to have access to the midi to be able to play around with what can be achieved with SM or AM strings.
I liked most of the mockup and understand the amount of work that goes into these things. So kudos to you. I enjoyed listening a lot.

However, for sake of constructive criticism, there were tiny moments that felt a bit like I am hearing a "church organ" (0:16, 0:26, 0:31). This however may be easy to fix in the programming and bowing. It may be that overall there is not enough dynamics, so it feels stale at times (squashed). Something could perhaps be done about the attacks on the notes. They feel mushy...so could this be improved by tweaking the note on velocities? I would need to see the midi data to judge though.

Some general comments about writing/programming for strings:

Take each line as an arc and imagine the bowing. Would a real player play it like this? This is always something that should be kept in the back of our minds as musicians AND programmers. We simply must include the emulation of "conductor and player's mindset and their mutual interaction regarding the dynamic arcs" into our work if we want to achieve realism. This can be done by dissecting the polyphonic end product into its components (melodic lines, dynamics, vibrato shaping, estimating bow real-estate and tweaking attacks for up and downbow) and examining their function and roles.

Also, I am pretty sure that the SM ensembles patches were not designed to be layered with the SM chamber patches. There may be phasing eventually as we don't know what is happening under the hood really in the case of the SM ensembles. We know that they are built up from individual instruments right?

The goal with physical modeling and sample modeling can never be to make AI infer our intentions while we just press a button and ride a wheel.
The goal of SM and AM to me is to have total control over the performance at all times in order to express musical ideas without limits. If we wanted to cut corners and get quick results, then we should use a sample library or swaths of them layered up, and accept the still very limited options... 
We would just push a key and ride the CC11/1 to achieve an approximation of a final product. If the goal in the end is to produce a mockup that will later be recorded in a real studio $$$, then we don't care if it sounds a tiny bit off, organ like, midi, as long as the expression and intent is clear to the conductor and players and/or the director is convinced of the vibe.


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## muziksculp (Feb 3, 2022)

Bruhelius said:


> The goal of SM and AM to me is to have total control over the performance at all times in order to express musical ideas without limits. If we wanted to cut corners and get quick results, then we should use a sample library or swaths of them layered up, and accept the still very limited options...
> We would just push a key and ride the CC11/1 to achieve an approximation of a final product. If the goal in the end is to produce a mockup that will later be recorded in a real studio $$$, then we don't care if it sounds a tiny bit off, organ like, midi, as long as the expression and intent is clear to the conductor and players and/or the director is convinced of the vibe.


Yes. Very true, and accurate. 

Summery : Lots of *Control*.


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## Erik (Feb 4, 2022)

@Bruhelius. Thanks a lot for your kind words, plus of course your elaborate input here.

Maybe the organ effect is (also) due to the layering of the solo and chamber strings as well? Furthermore, I hoped to have delivered a dynamic string performance, but not convincingly enough I notice. I will send you a PM with the midi data. I am very eager to know how to get things better in the programming.

I fully agree with the general comments about string performance and mockup's with AM or SM in general. Aiming for a decent (re-)production will always be very time consuming imo, with modeled instruments as well as sampled ones. Indeed this track took me many many hours, with pleasure btw, since this piece of Stephen Barton is really very inspiring for me, it is so well written.


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## mozart999uk (Feb 4, 2022)

Ivan M. said:


> Reaper users: I've made keyswitch and CC name maps. All names of CC not used (not documented) are reset to empty, so it's easy to find SM one's. Since I made it, might as well share it, hopefully it's useful to someone. And hopefully there are no errors
> 
> If you don't know where/how:
> Right click in the empty area just above the piano-roll keyboard, File - Note/CC Names - Load.
> ...


Thanks so much for these. I plan to put the keyswitches into Reaticulate soon. I'll link to them when done


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## mozart999uk (Feb 4, 2022)

Here's a very quick take I did a few weeks back. Just a breath controller - no other CC's - violin solo layered over the top of violins chamber (I played the solo violin first then doubled it with a separate take on chamber). It's not perfect by any means but for me, it was just the ease / speed of getting something that close to how a real violin section might play it with just two play throughs. No tweaking. 
In this case I'm using EAReverb for room placement but it sounded just as good using the built in reverb


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## muziksculp (Feb 4, 2022)

Hi,

OK, so here is an example of my first results after tweaking SM Ensembles VLNs 2 , this is still work in progress as I sculpt the sound of these strings. They are placed in the Teledex Stage, in Situ using MIR-Pro. I will be posting more info. and audio examples as I move forward with these tests. Reverb is Altiverb 7 using the Zlin Concert Hall Preset, with a few tweaks. I was just jamming around, so nothing fancy or very musical as far as the phrases are concerned. I should also add that I didn't do much as far as EQ goes, so that's something I plan to do next. I only have a slight Low-Cut EQ on the master buss. 

View attachment SM VLS 2 Test.mp3


Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## philippe goi (Feb 6, 2022)

Small improvisation with chamber strings , use MIR PRO synchron stage , omni directivity for each instrument and sections .


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## mozart999uk (Feb 7, 2022)

philippe goi said:


> Small improvisation with chamber strings , use MIR PRO synchron stage , omni directivity for each instrument and sections .


Nice  Is that just the chamber? Any solo layers over the top?


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## philippe goi (Feb 7, 2022)

Thank you ! it's just the ir 5 chamber strings (small sections). I will test other combinations in MIR PRO with layered solo strings ...


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## Bruhelius (Feb 7, 2022)

So if we want to go ahead and just talk about sound engineering... here's something I've been working on. 
I played a bit with a mix of Samplemodeling Ens/solo Strings, layered with SWAM Solo Strings (sorry for posting on this thread) and another synth engine (that you will never guess what it is - let the fun begin!). 

To beef up the physically modelled instruments, I added many of my own IRs for the string instruments whose sound I didn't like out of the box (I switched off any internal ERs or reverbs). The custom IRs gives them a nicer wood timbre I find. Then each instrument goes into its own instance of VSS2 for positioning (VSS2 dry/wet is at 11 o'clock).
Divisi A and B were played in separately though for each group (for example, SM violins are in chamber configuration, small ensemble size for each divisi-d section). I added some white noise that is automated via expression CCs and LFOs for some breathy sounds, very subtle. You can add in John Cage silence yourselves, ha! There are LFOs on midi delays for all instruments. We have CC remaping using Reaper's mapper X plugin, so that each instrument ends up having its own CC data (based off of my initial feed, say from divisi A of VI1). And different IRs, as stated earlier. I also blended in some vintage microphone IRs for coloring.

Note that the programming this time is ugly because I just played in the parts using just the mod wheel and didn't really edit the CC midi data. The Pianoteq 7 piano is there to just support the string section. Some of you may already know this mini Bruhelius piece 

For the ambience I did a lot... perhaps too much. Each section STEM (VI1, VI2, VA, CE, BA) goes into a separate 800-ms-IR that allows the listener to locate the position of the sub-ensemble (for example: left middle, or left back for VI1). I then add a longer reverb algo tail using FF Pro R.

I have a minimalist version of these ensembles that I use for sketching in realtime. Once I am happy, I fire up the rendering engine (activate the bigger ensemble) and out come my STEMS in offline rendering mode. Ideally I would start by making sure it sounds perfect before final rendering, but I just didn't have patience this time.
I would like to try next, the south by southwest string piece we saw earlier...let's see!


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## Yury Tikhomirov (Feb 7, 2022)

Finally got myself into the SM String owners club. My small noodling with solo strings patches from the library (sorry for notes spaghetti). Some eq on the master buss and Spaces II as reverb send.


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## muziksculp (Feb 7, 2022)

Yury Tikhomirov said:


> Finally got myself into the SM String owners club. My small noodling with solo strings patches from the library (sorry for notes spaghetti). Some eq on the master buss and Spaces II as reverb send.


Hi @Yury Tikhomirov ,

Congrats & Welcome Aboard


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## PerryD (Feb 7, 2022)

More experimentation with S&ES and Sunset Sound Studio reverb. A vintage SciFi suspense vibe with the large chamber reverb. Violin, Viola, Cello and Double Bass ensembles.


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## muziksculp (Feb 7, 2022)

PerryD said:


> More experimentation with S&ES and Sunset Sound Studio reverb. A vintage SciFi suspense vibe with the large chamber reverb. Violin, Viola, Cello and Double Bass ensembles.


Hi @PerryD ,

Thanks for sharing your demo, I Love the vibe of your experimentation. Vintage Scifi Suspense, Mysterious sounding. It put me in a bit of a Twilight Zone mood 

It's amazing how one can transform the character of S&ES Strings, this is one of the big advantages of this library over traditional strings libraries..... _Flexibility ! _

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## PerryD (Feb 8, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @PerryD ,
> 
> Thanks for sharing your demo, I Love the vibe of your experimentation. Vintage Scifi Suspense, Mysterious sounding. It put me in a bit of a Twilight Zone mood
> 
> ...


"It's amazing how one can transform the character of S&ES Strings, this is one of the big advantages of this library over traditional strings libraries..... _Flexibility !" _Exactly. The puzzle pieces are not pre cut. _ _Lots of great musical variety throughout this thread!


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## Bruhelius (Feb 9, 2022)

Bruhelius said:


> So if we want to go ahead and just talk about sound engineering... here's something I've been working on.
> I played a bit with a mix of Samplemodeling Ens/solo Strings, layered with SWAM Solo Strings (sorry for posting on this thread) and another synth engine (that you will never guess what it is - let the fun begin!).
> 
> To beef up the physically modelled instruments, I added many of my own IRs for the string instruments whose sound I didn't like out of the box (I switched off any internal ERs or reverbs). The custom IRs gives them a nicer wood timbre I find. Then each instrument goes into its own instance of VSS2 for positioning (VSS2 dry/wet is at 11 o'clock).
> ...


I listened back to the MP3 i had posted, and it didn’t survive the next-day test. I realized that my mistake was i had not properly balanced the SM strings with the SWAM, and also made a very bad choice for the room IR. I have been able to improve a lot the sound since… just to make people aware that it is best to wait a day before posting audio


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## PerryD (Feb 21, 2022)

Yet more exploring with S&ES. I want to do a full orchestral version of Paint It Black at some point. A partial test here using S&ES ensembles. A joy to play. 😎


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## JimDiGritz (Feb 21, 2022)

Hi, I've read the manual but have a couple of simple questions:

1. It looks like I have to re-assign CC's and Calibrate the Velocity Map on each .nki instrument - is this correct? eg Cello Solo, Viola Solo etc.

I'm pretty new with Kontakt as well so maybe it's an obvious Kontakt thing...

2. Also, whilst I realise that experimentation is the name of the game, given that I have 2 CC faders plus my Pitch Wheel which is assigned to Vibrato Intensity* what are the other 2 most important controls to have on hand?


*I've remapped the PitchWheel in Reaper to a CC# to control Vibrato Intensity (I love the way it snaps back to 0 just like releasing a Vib in real life!


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## muziksculp (Feb 24, 2022)




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## DarrinNoName (Feb 24, 2022)

PerryD said:


> I was playing with IK Sunset Sound Studio reverb & S&ES dry presets. Using the large live room, I was getting kind of a nice "vintage" string sound. A bit reverb heavy (especially isolated). Violins left, Violas Center and Cellos Right.


I guess I need to start asking users how they use this library and not looking for youtube tutorials because there aren't much out there. I have these strings and I can get them to sound good but never like what I hear in demos. I really like this demo and was curious what string sections are you using? Chamber Strings with a mix of solo strings, etc.? Really want to learn how to get the most out of these strings. and are you using a staging plug in to stage these or just the staging capabilities in the instrument settings? Thanks for any takeaways you're willing to share.


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## DarrinNoName (Feb 24, 2022)

muziksculp said:


>



It says V2.02!!! 👀👀👀 But is it available? Who out here has the details..LOL


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## muziksculp (Feb 24, 2022)

DarrinNoName said:


> I guess I need to start asking users how they use this library and not looking for youtube tutorials because there aren't much out there. I have these strings and I can get them to sound good but never like what I hear in demos. I really like this demo and was curious what string sections are you using? Chamber Strings with a mix of solo strings, etc.? Really want to learn how to get the most out of these strings. and are you using a staging plug in to stage these or just the staging capabilities in the instrument settings? Thanks for any takeaways you're willing to share.


I have requested from Sample Modeling to post some in-depth video tutorials on how to use this library. I really feel this is badly needed from them, sadly so far they haven't delivered this.


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## DarrinNoName (Feb 24, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I have requested from Sample Modeling to post some in-depth video tutorials on how to use this library. I really feel this is badly needed from them, sadly so far they haven't delivered this.


As you can probably read from my youtube post to their recent video, I'm just disturbed by the lack of customer interaction and discussion with their user base. I have to track down forums in order to have a discussion with users but all on my own accord without any direction. It feels like they don't want anybody to know about this product except a quiet corner of users willing to fork out the money to buy into their technology and brand. HAHA. They should be advocating for what they've accomplished and really talk about it more. Like their ex partners in development. They've really went out to get more and more people on board and showcase their product line. However, in depth tutorials have been something they both have lacked in. I really enjoy them both too but still practicing to get more out of them. trial and error really. Still I really like this product. I'm just frustrated because I hear these great examples on the forum and they make it sound so effortless. haha. SHOW ME THE WAYS! HAHAHA. anyway glad I've finally posted on here. Looking to learn more.


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## muziksculp (Feb 24, 2022)

DarrinNoName said:


> As you can probably read from my youtube post to their recent video, I'm just disturbed by the lack of customer interaction and discussion with their user base. I have to track down forums in order to have a discussion with users but all on my own accord without any direction. It feels like they don't want anybody to know about this product except a quiet corner of users willing to fork out the money to buy into their technology and brand. HAHA. They should be advocating for what they've accomplished and really talk about it more. Like their ex partners in development. They've really went out to get more and more people on board and showcase their product line. However, in depth tutorials have been something they both have lacked in. I really enjoy them both too but still practicing to get more out of them. trial and error really. Still I really like this product. I'm just frustrated because I hear these great examples on the forum and they make it sound so effortless. haha. SHOW ME THE WAYS! HAHAHA. anyway glad I've finally posted on here. Looking to learn more.


+1

One of the reasons I creted this thread, was to encourage users of their libraries to post their feedback, tips, tricks, tracks, videos, ..etc. and encourage Sample Modeling to post in-depth videos so we can learn how to best use their libraries. Especially Solo & Ensemble Strings. Hopefully they will post some in-depth video tutorials in the near future, because I see no reason for them not doing so. 

Version 2.0.2 seems to improve legato functionality, but we don't know much about it yet. I'm guessing it will be released soon.


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## DarrinNoName (Feb 24, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> +1
> 
> One of the reasons I creted this thread, was to encourage users of their libraries to post their feedback, tips, tricks, tracks, videos, ..etc. and encourage Sample Modeling to post in-depth videos so we can learn how to best use their libraries. Especially Solo & Ensemble Strings. Hopefully they will post some in-depth video tutorials in the near future, because I see no reason for them not doing so.
> 
> Version 2.0.2 seems to improve legato functionality, but we don't know much about it yet. I'm guessing it will be released soon.


Well Thank You for creating this thread. I will be sure to check in periodically and add my 2 cents here and there.


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## PerryD (Feb 24, 2022)

DarrinNoName said:


> I guess I need to start asking users how they use this library and not looking for youtube tutorials because there aren't much out there. I have these strings and I can get them to sound good but never like what I hear in demos. I really like this demo and was curious what string sections are you using? Chamber Strings with a mix of solo strings, etc.? Really want to learn how to get the most out of these strings. and are you using a staging plug in to stage these or just the staging capabilities in the instrument settings? Thanks for any takeaways you're willing to share.


 Thanks! They were the regular (full) ensembles. Just panned in Studio One. They are capable of much more than what I have done with them. Very flexible.


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## Cristian Labelli (Feb 24, 2022)

Hi all!

First of all our apologies for the lack of material. We are working hard to improve the instruments and provide demos to the users. I can guarantee that our presence on social media and forums will increase significantly from now on. We're studying an optimized system to explain the use of all our instruments at their best, planning the creation of tutorials, walkthroughs and logic session breakdowns. There's a lot to say, and we are working to do it as neatly as possible, but this requires time. 



DarrinNoName said:


> I guess I need to start asking users how they use this library and not looking for youtube tutorials because there aren't much out there. I have these strings and I can get them to sound good but never like what I hear in demos. I really like this demo and was curious what string sections are you using? Chamber Strings with a mix of solo strings, etc.? Really want to learn how to get the most out of these strings. and are you using a staging plug in to stage these or just the staging capabilities in the instrument settings? Thanks for any takeaways you're willing to share.


For my part, I can start right now by trying to help you achieve the sound you desire!
I'm planning to do a Logic session breakdown for this particular piece. In the meanwhile:
I'm using a layer of Samplemodeling Chamber Strings and a layer of Solo strings, adjusting the volume with some automation. I didn't proceed by duplicating the chamber MIDI region: I directly played all the parts again with the solos. Doing so can result in better musicality, IMHO.

I attached 3 files:
Solo only, Chambers only, Chambers + Solos.

View attachment Solos only.mp3

View attachment Chambers only.mp3

View attachment Chambers + Solos.mp3


I used the instrument without ER and Reverb: I manually created the ERs with a pre-fader send to a small chamber (LexChamber, Small Chamber 2, Predelay set to 0ms, rev time set to 0.8s) and for the tails I use post-fader sends to a Reverb (in this case BREVERB 2 by Antelope, but you can use whatever you want. Predelay set to 96ms, rev time set to 1.08s). You can achieve a similar result using the ERs and the Reverb of the instrument, the workflow is the same.

Here you can find 2 exports: ER only and REV TAILS only:
View attachment ER only.mp3

View attachment Rev Tails only.mp3


I applied some eq on the tracks (I can share the processing if you're interested) and some clean compressors. Then I add a track with some ambient noise, captured by me in a church some time ago.

Noise:
View attachment Church Noise.mp3


I added some final eq and compression corrections on the master track but the sound was already more than good!

I hope I've been comprehensive enough for now, but don't hesitate to ask for more details


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## muziksculp (Feb 24, 2022)

Hi @Cristian Labelli ,

Thank You for your helpful feedback, and explanation of the mix process of your demo. 

Q1. For the Reverb Tail, I'm curious how much of the dry signal you mixed in with the wet reverb tail ? 

I also find it interesting that you added an Ambient Noise signal to the mix to increase the realism. That's something I never do, but I might have to begin adding a noise signal from now on. 

Q2. Do you find adding the Ambient Noise signal helps a lot with the overall realism factor of the mix ? 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## DarrinNoName (Feb 24, 2022)

Definitely appreciate the breakdown. I expressed my thoughts on the latest youtube video and one of my comments were deleted or taken down. I understand that perceived image means a lot but, why take down the comment (Not sure who but it was removed)? I assume that it resonated or someone felt bothered by it but it was just constructive criticism. There's pro and cons to everything. nothing is perfect but either way, I could careless about whether the comment was taken down or not, as long as the outcry is heard and seems like it is and I definitely look forward to continually growing and adapting with this product line. I really enjoy the flexibility of this library and thanks again for the most recent breakdown.


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## muziksculp (Feb 24, 2022)

DarrinNoName said:


> I expressed my thoughts on the latest youtube video and one of my comments were deleted or taken down.


Hmmm... was your comment a negative one ? or ... ? Now I'm curious what you wrote in your comment that they decided to delete it. You can PM me if you don't want to post it on this thread.


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## DarrinNoName (Feb 24, 2022)

Cristian Labelli said:


> Hi all!
> 
> First of all our apologies for the lack of material. We are working hard to improve the instruments and provide demos to the users. I can guarantee that our presence on social media and forums will increase significantly from now on. We're studying an optimized system to explain the use of all our instruments at their best, planning the creation of tutorials, walkthroughs and logic session breakdowns. There's a lot to say, and we are working to do it as neatly as possible, but this requires time.
> 
> ...


Any placement reverb (like EaReverb or Virtual SoundStage) or placement done inside of the instrument?


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## DarrinNoName (Feb 24, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hmmm... was your comment a negative one ? or ... ? Now I'm curious what you wrote in your comment that they decided to delete it. You can PM me if you don't want to post it on this thread.


I mean.. I guess it was negative..LOL. If they took it down its obvious it struck a nerve so I'll leave it that for now 🤐. Still a fan and in all honesty, Its hard to go back to other libraries when the flexibility of these are so great. I just need to get them to sound great.. haha


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## muziksculp (Feb 24, 2022)

DarrinNoName said:


> Still a fan and in all honesty, Its hard to go back to other libraries when the flexibility of these are so great. I just need to get them to sound great.. haha


I'm sure you will get them to sound great, especially with some help, and tips from experts on this library, i.e @Cristian Labelli , and others, plus the Sample Modeling team. 

Yes, The flexibility of this library is super attractive, and it keeps getting better with every update, hopefully ver 2.0.2 is around the corner, and we will know what it adds/improves to the current version.


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## Cristian Labelli (Feb 24, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Cristian Labelli ,
> 
> Thank You for your helpful feedback, and explanation of the mix process of your demo.
> 
> ...


@muziksculp 
Q1: I can't tell you the exact percentage, unfortunately: I managed the reverb by creating a send and putting the reverb plugin on the return. The amount of wet signal is exactly what you hear in the "Rev Tails only" track. By treating separately ER and Tails, with 2 different sends, you're able to give depth to your mix. With a bit of practice you should be able to give the right amount of dry signal to make everything intelligible and not too 'blurred', the right amount of ER to 'contextualize' instruments in space and the right amount of rev tails to give depth and color to your ensemble. 

Q2: ABSOLUTELY. Please note: you don't have to hear the noise: it must be barely perceptible, so as to create small random variations, especially in the high frequencies, which make the mockup realistic. It must absolutely not compromise the cleanliness of the track!

I strongly suggest you to try  



DarrinNoName said:


> Definitely appreciate the breakdown. I expressed my thoughts on the latest youtube video and one of my comments were deleted or taken down. I understand that perceived image means a lot but, why take down the comment (Not sure who but it was removed)? I assume that it resonated or someone felt bothered by it but it was just constructive criticism. There's pro and cons to everything. nothing is perfect but either way, I could careless about whether the comment was taken down or not, as long as the outcry is heard and seems like it is and I definitely look forward to continually growing and adapting with this product line. I really enjoy the flexibility of this library and thanks again for the most recent breakdown.


@DarrinNoName 
Unfortunately I didn't see the comment. Please feel free to write it down here so I can try to reply.  



DarrinNoName said:


> Any placement reverb (like EaReverb or Virtual SoundStage) or placement done inside of the instrument?


Nothing. Everything was handled as if I had captured a dry signal and had to do the MIX


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## muziksculp (Feb 24, 2022)

Cristian Labelli said:


> By treating separately ER and Tails, with 2 different sends, you're able to give depth to your mix. With a bit of practice you should be able to give the right amount of dry signal to make everything intelligible and not too 'blurred', the right amount of ER to 'contextualize' instruments in space and the right amount of rev tails to give depth and color to your ensemble.


Thanks @Cristian Labelli .

Actually, I have been using VSL MIR-Pro to place the instruments in a hall/stage, instead of using ER via a send.

I'm also experimenting with various Reverbs I have for the Reverb tail. Also some EQ, Compression, etc. But, now I need to add the Noise signal to enhance the realism as you recommended.


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## Ivan Duch (Feb 24, 2022)

The tip about the added noise sounds very interesting. Especially the bit about it adding some randomness to the high freqs. Any recommended sources for it?


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## Cristian Labelli (Feb 24, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> The tip about the added noise sounds very interesting. Especially the bit about it adding some randomness to the high freqs. Any recommended sources for it?


Hi @Ivan Duch 
For years I used a random theater noise found on the internet.
Lately I've been using my own, you can find an excerpt of it a few messages ago!
It is not the signal noise itself that is important, but the volume in relation to the MIDI instruments


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## muziksculp (Feb 24, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> The tip about the added noise sounds very interesting. Especially the bit about it adding some randomness to the high freqs. Any recommended sources for it?


Just for fun. I was thinking maybe the Noise of water coming out of a faucet at a medium to high intensity, has a lot of random noise, so maybe recording it, then applying a low-pass filter to cut the mid-high frequencies might be an interesting experiment to see if it can result in the kind of random noise one hears in a hall/stage.


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## Trevor Meier (Feb 24, 2022)

Cristian Labelli said:


> Hi all!
> 
> First of all our apologies for the lack of material. We are working hard to improve the instruments and provide demos to the users. I can guarantee that our presence on social media and forums will increase significantly from now on. We're studying an optimized system to explain the use of all our instruments at their best, planning the creation of tutorials, walkthroughs and logic session breakdowns. There's a lot to say, and we are working to do it as neatly as possible, but this requires time.
> 
> ...


Do you run the ERs into the reverb tail, or do they each have their own return? Is there any completely dry signal from the library mixed in? I would assume not…

What MIDI controller did you use for performing the CC modulations?


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## muziksculp (Feb 24, 2022)

Hi,

I recorded around 42 seconds of my kitchen water faucet sound of the water flowing down to the sink, then used Soundtoys FilterFreak 2 plugin to filter out most of the high-mid frequencies to simulate a noise level in a hall. You can further tweak it to your taste with additional filtering/EQ, ...etc.

The file is 48 Khz / 24-bit resolution (.WAV).

Here is a dropbox link to the file so you can download it :

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tjw8grjaasut6cu/Water%20Noise%20Filtered%201%20wav.wav?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/tjw8grjaasut6cu/Water Noise Filtered 1 wav.wav?dl=0)


Hopefully it is a bit useful. You can duplicate it many times, and crossfade the region end-start points to extend it, and make it cover your track's full duration.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## bFooz (Feb 25, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I recorded around 42 seconds of my kitchen water faucet sound of the water flowing down to the sink


You can as well use a pink noise generator for this. Eq it as necessary (will need more eqing than the water), maybe add some reverb or better send it to the existing reverb sends.


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## doctoremmet (Feb 25, 2022)

I really like this plugin for it:









Noize 2


Noize 2, Noize 2 plugin, buy Noize 2, download Noize 2 trial, denise Noize 2




www.pluginboutique.com


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## Jish (Feb 25, 2022)

DarrinNoName said:


> As you can probably read from my youtube post to their recent video, I'm just disturbed by the lack of customer interaction and discussion with their user base. I have to track down forums in order to have a discussion with users but all on my own accord without any direction. It feels like they don't want anybody to know about this product except a quiet corner of users willing to fork out the money to buy into their technology and brand. HAHA. They should be advocating for what they've accomplished and really talk about it more. Like their ex partners in development.


I agree that since even the previous update, quite a bit has been left to be desired when it comes to actually doing the work of demonstrating _how _certain mockups and affects were achieved- given the more involved nature of what it actually takes to start getting things actually approaching a natural, realistic performance which these have appeared to be striving for from the first release. Cristian's replies on this page have been a refreshing change of direction, and it'll be interesting to see how much they demonstrate in (hopefully) soon to come videos.


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## Fa (Feb 25, 2022)

When J.S.Bach was asked how one can reach his level of mastership in composing, he answered that's just a matter of hard work, and everybody can do it.

Actually using Samplemodeling is not that hard instead, but still, as all sophisticated tools acting as VI and not as pre-recorded or clichè performance, you have to take the patience of reading the manual, watch tutorials, and even more important play with features and experiment, like you do with a new acoustic instrument.

On one side it's a duty task for the developer to enable people using the product in the best way, and showing potential new customers the way the tool works and the benefits of using it.

On the other side the developer has to focus on development: can't be the academy teacher full time, that's obviously out of scope, even more if the company is a niche-technology small one, and has not the budget and resources of the big generalist brands.

I still find some-how contradictory that several people complaining about a supposed lack of information, were never looking for the existing one, even if it's not really hidden or secret, and it's available just where you were expecting it: in the manual, and in the web site tutorials.


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## DarrinNoName (Feb 25, 2022)

Fa said:


> When J.S.Bach was asked how one can reach his level of mastership in composing, he answered that's just a matter of hard work, and everybody can do it.
> 
> Actually using Samplemodeling is not that hard instead, but still, as all sophisticated tools acting as VI and not as pre-recorded or clichè performance, you have to take the patience of reading the manual, watch tutorials, and even more important play with features and experiment, like you do with a new acoustic instrument.
> 
> ...


This sounds like someone who erased my comment on Youtube. LOL. we get to read your words but mine get censored. Btw. lets here what you've done with the Library. I'd love to hear your work. I'm sure you got something we can hear? I've read the manual applied many techniques and still learning. Web site tutorials? I've seen them. The few that's out there they don't sound like the demos either. but I digress. I will eventually figure it out. I have no problem with that. But this is interesting. When you can tell us as users to basically shut up and spend our money and figure out how to use the tools on our own but I can't give you all constructive feedback on interacting with your "customers"? . OK! gotcha. notes taken.. But that's why I'm here. On this forum to talk with those who are using the product because those are the ones trying to help. Why are you on this forum? are you here to help or defend your position?



Cristian Labelli said:


> I applied some eq on the tracks (I can share the processing if you're interested) and some clean compressors. Then I add a track with some ambient noise, captured by me in a church some time ago.
> 
> Noise:



Adding a track with some ambient Noise?HMM. This sounds like something I've not found in the manual. or Website tutorial. this is a tip coming straight from the "user" who created it on this forum. and something that I consider helpful to the "users" because again, this is part of the demo that's posted online on Sample Modeling's Youtube and without being explained, Potential Clients (and current ones)would assume that this is achievable out the box. But it's not, and that's what I'm talking about and I know, you know what I mean "Fa". There's nothing out of bounds of what I'm asking. I've gladly spent the money to use this product, because I "believe" in the direction of where it's going. Asking for tips and for lack of a better term "tricks" on how to get the best out of it, is what I should be advocated and encouraged to do as a user/customer. Again, Thank you Cristian For taking time out of your day, to address the forum with your breakdown and tips on how you did that lovely demo. It is greatly appreciated.


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## clisma (Feb 25, 2022)

DarrinNoName said:


> This sounds like someone who erased my comment on Youtube. LOL. we get to read your words but mine get censored. Btw. lets here what you've done with the Library. I'd love to hear your work. I'm sure you got something we can hear? I've read the manual applied many techniques and still learning. Web site tutorials? I've seen them. The few that's out there they don't sound like the demos either. but I digress. I will eventually figure it out. I have no problem with that. But this is interesting. When you can tell us as users to basically shut up and spend our money and figure out how to use the tools on our own but I can't give you all constructive feedback on interacting with your "customers"? . OK! gotcha. notes taken.. But that's why I'm here. On this forum to talk with those who are using the product because those are the ones trying to help. Why are you on this forum? are you here to help or defend your position?
> 
> 
> 
> Adding a track with some ambient Noise?HMM. This sounds like something I've not found in the manual. or Website tutorial. this is a tip coming straight from the "user" who created it on this forum. and something that I consider helpful to the "users" because again, this is part of the demo that's posted online on Sample Modeling's Youtube and without being explained, Potential Clients (and current ones)would assume that this is achievable out the box. But it's not, and that's what I'm talking about and I know, you know what I mean "Fa". There's nothing out of bounds of what I'm asking. I've gladly spent the money to use this product, because I "believe" in the direction of where it's going. Asking for tips and for lack of a better term "tricks" on how to get the best out of it, is what I should be advocated and encouraged to do as a user/customer. Again, Thank you Cristian For taking time out of your day, to address the forum with your breakdown and tips on how you did that lovely demo. It is greatly appreciated.


Easy there, my friend. Fa has been posting his work with the product for a long time and has generally been very helpful with how to use it. Just do a search of the forum posts. You seem to be new here, so that’s understandable, but let’s try not to accuse each other of things.

I can understand people wanting some hand-holding with this complex instrument, but between Cristian, Fabrizio and Giorgio posting here, I think there shouldn’t be much to complain about.


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## DarrinNoName (Feb 25, 2022)

clisma said:


> Easy there, my friend. Fa has been posting his work with the product for a long time and has generally been very helpful with how to use it. Just do a search of the forum posts. You seem to be new here, so that’s understandable, but let’s try not to accuse each other of things.
> 
> I can understand people wanting some hand-holding with this complex instrument, but between Cristian, Fabrizio and Giorgio posting here, I think there shouldn’t be much to complain about.



I didn't make accusations, I made a statement. I've been following the forums for years. I'm not new here. I'm new to posting and made a post because my original post on other platforms were flagged by someone and again, I'm not saying anything out of bounds And that's neither here nor there at this moment and to be clear, 

FA said and I quote "*I still find some-how contradictory that several people complaining about a "supposed" lack of information, were never looking for the existing one*, *even if it's not really hidden or secret, and it's available just where you were expecting it: in the manual, and in the web site tutorials."*

How could someone say that users have "Never" looked for the existing information or have not read the manual. Some would say that's accusatory. and using the words "complaining" Like we're some kids who are screaming "not fair" and should be sent to timeout or something LOL Come on. We're Complaining? We're asking for more tips not handouts. and as Cristian stated, there will be more of that to come Which I'm excited to hear. I'd Like to call that Customer Support. And I suppose we can agree to disagree.


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## mozart999uk (Feb 25, 2022)

Forgetting all the "placement" and "verbs" for a moment, can we take time to acknowledge two things?: Christian's very musical and skillful playing / programming and Peter Warlock, who was a fantastic composer. Two things that for me, make that youtube example what it is.


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## muziksculp (Feb 25, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> I really like this plugin for it:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi @doctoremmet 

Thanks for this recommendation. Although I can use some of my synths to produce Noise, or record noise sources, and edit them, (i.e. water), I think this VST is more specialized. 

I like what it does, and the price is reasonable too. I will be adding it to my plugin tool kit. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Fa (Feb 25, 2022)

DarrinNoName said:


> This sounds like someone who erased my comment on Youtube. LOL. we get to read your words but mine get censored. Btw. lets here what you've done with the Library. I'd love to hear your work. I'm sure you got something we can hear? I've read the manual applied many techniques and still learning. Web site tutorials? I've seen them. The few that's out there they don't sound like the demos either. but I digress. I will eventually figure it out. I have no problem with that. But this is interesting. When you can tell us as users to basically shut up and spend our money and figure out how to use the tools on our own but I can't give you all constructive feedback on interacting with your "customers"? . OK! gotcha. notes taken.. But that's why I'm here. On this forum to talk with those who are using the product because those are the ones trying to help. Why are you on this forum? are you here to help or defend your position?
> 
> 
> 
> Adding a track with some ambient Noise?HMM. This sounds like something I've not found in the manual. or Website tutorial. this is a tip coming straight from the "user" who created it on this forum. and something that I consider helpful to the "users" because again, this is part of the demo that's posted online on Sample Modeling's Youtube and without being explained, Potential Clients (and current ones)would assume that this is achievable out the box. But it's not, and that's what I'm talking about and I know, you know what I mean "Fa". There's nothing out of bounds of what I'm asking. I've gladly spent the money to use this product, because I "believe" in the direction of where it's going. Asking for tips and for lack of a better term "tricks" on how to get the best out of it, is what I should be advocated and encouraged to do as a user/customer. Again, Thank you Cristian For taking time out of your day, to address the forum with your breakdown and tips on how you did that lovely demo. It is greatly appreciated.


Not sure why you think I had erased your post on Youtube (?), I don't help and don't provide support, I didn't publish my works... etc. Even less I understand why you think I was talking about you personally. 

Finally I really don't know why you consider me the company and you my customer. That sounds like a lot of misunderstanding, but to be very honest, I can't see where in my message I provided a source for those assumptions.

We had years of conversations on the topic in the main thread, and I was adding to your and previous posts some more comments, partially in agreement and partially in disagreement, because I'm an expert user and like other expert users we had to tell often people about topics available in manual and tutorials, just facts non assumptions.

You ask and I answer: Want to hear my work and if I help people? Just look to the main thread if you want to know more about me, and the topic.

Why I am in the forum? To respectfully express my opinions and partecipate to the debate, as all the other, like you, do. And often, when I can, to help, as all the other.


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## clisma (Feb 25, 2022)

DarrinNoName said:


> I didn't make accusations, I made a statement. I've been following the forums for years. I'm not new here. I'm new to posting and made a post because my original post on other platforms were flagged by someone and again, I'm not saying anything out of bounds And that's neither here nor there at this moment and to be clear,
> 
> FA said and I quote "*I still find some-how contradictory that several people complaining about a "supposed" lack of information, were never looking for the existing one*, *even if it's not really hidden or secret, and it's available just where you were expecting it: in the manual, and in the web site tutorials."*
> 
> How could someone say that users have "Never" looked for the existing information or have not read the manual. Some would say that's accusatory. and using the words "complaining" Like we're some kids who are screaming "not fair" and should be sent to timeout or something LOL Come on. We're Complaining? We're asking for more tips not handouts. and as Cristian stated, there will be more of that to come Which I'm excited to hear. I'd Like to call that Customer Support. And I suppose we can agree to disagree.


It seems to me that your tone was a bit of a miss, at least. We can disagree on a lot of things, fine, but as someone who spends a lot of time helping others in various facets, I think your tone was counterproductive. I would very much like developers and users like Fa to stay on this forum and continue providing tips for their product. And if you are indeed a long time users of this forum, then you should already have profited from the help that they have given so far. And you did state that what wrote Fa _"sounds like someone who erased my comment on Youtube."_


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## DarrinNoName (Feb 25, 2022)

Fa said:


> Not sure why you think I had erased your post on Youtube (?), I don't help and don't provide support, I didn't publish my works... etc. Even less I understand why you think I was talking about you personally.
> 
> Finally I really don't know why you consider me the company and you my customer. That sounds like a lot of misunderstanding, but to be very honest, I can't see where in my message I provided a source for those assumptions.
> 
> ...


When you initially replied, it came off as though you were speaking on behalf of the company, also given that you got a nod from one of the co-owners, it felt that way too. Secondly, I didn't imply it was you who deleted my comment I said you sound like someone who deleted my comment. LOL (given the way you replied to what was said before you). It came off.... arrogant like. Now I'm not calling you arrogant what I'm saying is that, given that I can only work with text here, it came off that way. 

Also given the nature of the discussion, being that you replied after I was quoted it came off like a direct correlation to what I said. Lastly, I respect your reply and I know what you've contributed to this forum and it's noted. However, the statement that all can be found in the manual or in web tutorials was where I felt that, well...that's not completely accurate or fact.

The manual tells you in great detail how to use the product and what parameters do, etc. but to be fair, it falls short in how to arrange them in a specific context which we all know that manuals aren't design to do that. That's why I feel when we hear demos that sound like nothing we've been playing we go, "how was that done?" Because most of the time users are doing things some would never think of or consider. Cristian's reply to my original post was something a manual can't tell you. breaking down combining things, adding ambient noise, etc. The Current web tutorials regarding what I originally said, have not either. That's why I said it. and being that he (Cristian) acknowledged what I said, meant he also understood what I said and knows what I mean and it could have been left at that.

Another note is most of these demos are made in an orchestral context. Are there techniques that would help to use this library outside of the context of orchestral arrangements? That's not something we'd find in a manual and I haven't found any tutorials on that subject regarding this library (Yet). So respectfully, I agree to disagree with some of what you said. But I can Appreciate the clarification and standing corrected 😉.


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## bFooz (Feb 25, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @doctoremmet
> 
> Thanks for this recommendation. Although I can use some of my synths to produce Noise, or record noise sources, and edit them, (i.e. water), I think this VST is more specialized.
> 
> ...



*A little study on noise.*​
Here is an eq-ed noise approximation of the noises recorder in posts above.

*Noise 1 - Water.*

I would not actually use this for music. Two reasons: 1) the original water recording has a tone, a definite pitch. It comes from the shape of the sink most likely. 2) Too much low end. You want mids, the low end muddies sound too much or you will put it so quiet it does not have to be there in the first place.

Original
View attachment Water Noise Filtered 1 wav.mp3

Pink noise
View attachment Noise1.mp3

Pink noise EQ






*Noise 2 - Ambient noise*

This one is much better. It has mids up to higher mids and a steep rollof of the higs. It can be mixed so it does its work but does not muddy the sound and does not attract attention to itself because of the rolled off highs.

Original
View attachment 70136-53c89e8b2abb5b986fc38c6b061ed6ca.mp3


Pink noise (put volume at 25% to match "Original", sorry for that)
View attachment Noise2.mp3


Pink noise EQ. Here, with pink noise, you can just delete the two midbands and use a highpass to cut the very bottom and a highshelf (or low pass) to cut the highs and done. And put it through the reverb.





Now, in the ambient noise, there are cars coming by and people walking. I don't know if that plays a role in making the mockup believable. It might or might not. But those cars or motocycles have a definite pitch again.


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## muziksculp (Feb 25, 2022)

Hi,

It would be appreciated if we can stick to the topic of this thread. THANKS

I would love to see some in-depth video tutorials showing Solo & Ens. Strings used in various scenarios. How best to apply the various controller parameters to produce specific types of string articulations, effects, timbres, ...etc. The use of Timbral Shaping, production tips, what ver. 2.0.2 will improve, layering the various options of the library, i.e. Solo + Chamber, ..etc. , Vibrato Controls, Attack and Release controls, Dynamics to Pitch, Which Controller messages are useful to automate in real time to add more realism, tips for short articulations, tips for legatos, tips for sustains, portato, detache, portamento control, .. ...etc.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Giorgio Tommasini (Feb 25, 2022)

I will not comment some off-topic posts above. I would rather recall several tutorials that have been created to help understand and use our virtual instruments and are available on our webpages:









Solo, Chamber & Ensemble Strings v2 - Tutorials


Videos for Solo, Chamber & Ensemble Strings v2 by Samplemodeling




www.samplemodeling.com





Dmitry Goriuk:

1) a tutorial on controllers and keyswitches
2) a tutorial on our exclusive timbral shaper
3) a tutorial on microtuning

Leandro Gardini:

4) Scoring Tools Masterclass - Taking Your Strings to the Next Level episode 1. The new Sample Modeling Solo & Ensemble Strings playing Beethoven's Fifth Symphony.
5) Scoring Tools Masterclass - Taking Your Strings to the Next Level episode 2. The new Sample Modeling Solo & Ensemble Strings playing the Mozart's Symphony no.40
6) Scoring Tools Masterclass - Taking Your Strings to the Next Level episode 3. The new Sample Modeling Solo & Ensemble Strings playing Gladiator by Hans Zimmer
7) Scoring Tools Masterclass - Taking Your Strings to the Next Level episode 4. The New Sample Modeling Solo & Ensemble Strings playing Lord of the Rings by Howard Shore









Solo, Chamber & Ensemble Strings v2 - Walkthrough


Videos for Solo, Chamber & Ensemble Strings v2 by Samplemodeling




www.samplemodeling.com





Ramiro Gómez Massetti:

8) The first episode demonstrates each solo and ensemble instrument, naked and played in real time.
9) The second episode explores various Playing Techniques and Realism Tips.
10) The third and last episode of the series shows Ensembles built in a completely different and revolutionary way.

Ignoring them would be unfair.

Best,

Giorgio


​


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## philippe goi (Feb 25, 2022)

New small contribution!
Beginning Prelude Grieg with Chamber Strings , spacialization in Parallax Virtual sound stage ( micro DECCA ) Altiverb on Master .
Mid file for those who want to test and analyze!
View attachment Prélude Holbergs E.Grieg SampleModeling Chamber Strings (intro).mp4


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## muziksculp (Feb 25, 2022)

Hi,

I saw this YT video posted on another thread discussing mixing dry libraries, this video demonstrates how VSL's MIR-Pro is used to place dry instruments in stage, or hall setting. MIR-Pro is the tool I use when using very dry sounding libraries, i.e. SM Solo & Ensemble Strings, SWAM Solo Instruments, ..etc. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## doctoremmet (Feb 25, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @doctoremmet
> 
> Thanks for this recommendation. Although I can use some of my synths to produce Noise, or record noise sources, and edit them, (i.e. water), I think this VST is more specialized.
> 
> ...


I am glad to have been of help. FWIW, I quite like the subtle use of this plugin in many musical contexts. I hope you’ll like it.


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## muziksculp (Feb 25, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> I am glad to have been of help. FWIW, I quite like the subtle use of this plugin in many musical contexts. I hope you’ll like it.


Thanks


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## doctoremmet (Feb 25, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Thanks


Just saw Denise are going to run a sale. Maybe wait for that, it’ll render you a free BassXL plugin from them as well. 

Edit; €32 right now + free plugin. So sale is already on. Discounts grow if you’d purchase additional stuff (their plate reverb is great btw).


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## muziksculp (Feb 25, 2022)

Hi,

Here is a test of SM Ensemble Violins 2. Using VSL MIR-Pro Teledex Stage for placement and ER, and TC Electronics VSS3 for Reverb tail. Some EQ as well. 

Nothing very musical, just plying some phrases, I'm using the high-position of the violins 2, I have CC 38 knob around 10:00 PM position, which is in the Marcato range, but I'm playing in a more legato relaxed style. I'm also using a custom Timbral Shaping setting that I felt improved the overall timbre of Vlns 2, or let's say brought it closer to my taste.

I also used my Water Noise sample in the mix, but at a very subliminal level, so it's more felt than heard. It is present in the few seconds of of the clip when no notes are playing.

View attachment SM Vlns 2 Test in MIR Pro and VSS3 ver3.mp3


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## Jish (Feb 26, 2022)

clisma said:


> I can understand people wanting some hand-holding with this complex instrument, but between Cristian, Fabrizio and Giorgio posting here, I think there shouldn’t be much to complain about.


It's looking a bit better now that Cristian made several very recent posts, and yes of course almost any who follow this thread can recognize those admirable few members who consistently atleast attempt to address questions- but again, to quote Cristian himself:



Cristian Labelli said:


> Hi all!
> 
> First of all our apologies for the lack of material. We are working hard to improve the instruments and provide demos to the users. I can guarantee that our presence on social media and forums will increase significantly from now on. We're studying an optimized system to explain the use of all our instruments at their best, planning the creation of tutorials, walkthroughs and logic session breakdowns. There's a lot to say, and we are working to do it as neatly as possible, but this requires time.


Call it whatever you like, but I find this to be a somewhat obvious statement of sorts to the, yes- customer or even _potential_ customer base that a significant amount up to this point has left to be desired with regards to clearly demonstrating the many various in's and out's of the strings and how to get the best possible from SM when it comes to the actual demo performances, and exactly what is going on in any specific mockup to get them there. For instance, I would like to see a well-conceived video demonstrating very closely, for instance, how the new Pieds en l'Air Warlock mockup was created- meaning anything at all relevant in getting the minute and a half mockup to sound as it does, and the finessing entailed to get it there. The manual? When it comes to deeper and frankly more meaningful learning, only tends to take one so far- any ego aside, perhaps Denzel said it best here:


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## Fa (Feb 26, 2022)

philippe goi said:


> New small contribution!
> Beginning Prelude Grieg with Chamber Strings , spacialization in Parallax Virtual sound stage ( micro DECCA ) Altiverb on Master .
> Mid file for those who want to test and analyze!
> View attachment Prélude Holbergs E.Grieg SampleModeling Chamber Strings (intro).mp4


Very nice, (as usual) Philippe!
I'm working on the very same score that is a good field to exploit some of the 2.02 improvements, like the enhanced control of the shorts attack, beside the lyrical divisi.

We may discuss later our technics to get the effects, thank you very much for posting!


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## Fa (Feb 26, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> Here is a test of SM Ensemble Violins 2. Using VSL MIR-Pro Teledex Stage for placement and ER, and TC Electronics VSS3 for Reverb tail. Some EQ as well.
> 
> ...


Interesting experiments, I can add something to the topic, curious to know how you approached the following points:
- the instruments IR (cc100) are very important for the eQ and noise management: some are darker some are brighter, some are uncovering more bow-noise (e.g. in high position KS Bb) some other are smoothing it. So looking for the proper instrument IR and bow-noise (cc21) combination for a phrase is a recommended first step. Obviously eQ and even timbral shaper can be the last fine tuning. Being all controlled by cc you aren't forced to keep them static, you may change value for different phrases or dynamics. (N.B. the cc100 can't be changed during sustain. It works only when the instrument is totally silent after all the release have been off, so don't try to change it during play or too close to the last note-off)

- creating your own floor noise is very creative! (keeping into account some valid points by bFooz) You can make it at your taste using whatever source of caos, acoustic as you did, or electronic as other were pointing out. When approaching the final mix you may engage the VSL MIR venue noise, or mix some stage scoring noises as Cristian and I do when we try to replicate the sound of live recordings. So were you looking more for a change on the sound texture or a more realistic stage background?


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## Cristian Labelli (Feb 26, 2022)

Hi all  


mozart999uk said:


> Forgetting all the "placement" and "verbs" for a moment, can we take time to acknowledge two things?: Christian's very musical and skillful playing / programming and Peter Warlock, who was a fantastic composer. Two things that for me, make that youtube example what it is.


First of all, I wanted to thank @mozart999uk and all those who appreciated my posts and my work, This kind of comment inspire me a lot.



DarrinNoName said:


> [...] Adding a track with some ambient Noise?HMM. This sounds like something I've not found in the manual. [...]



@DarrinNoName I'll try to give as much information as I can to help you achieve the sound you want, but one important note: I applied some "virtual orchestration" techniques (e.g. adding the ambient noise) and used some 'mixing skills' (e.g. the correct placement with sends and returns) that are NOT strictly related to Samplemodeling and have nothing to do with the programming and use of the instrument.

Sharing this kind of knowledge is something I like to do for the SM community, but I want to make it clear that I'm just reporting something that experienced virtual orchestrators already do with any library.



philippe goi said:


> New small contribution!
> Beginning Prelude Grieg with Chamber Strings , spacialization in Parallax Virtual sound stage ( micro DECCA ) Altiverb on Master .
> Mid file for those who want to test and analyze!
> View attachment Prélude Holbergs E.Grieg SampleModeling Chamber Strings (intro).mp4



Great, @philippe goi , wonderful mockup!!!


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## Cristian Labelli (Feb 26, 2022)

Jish said:


> [...] For instance, I would like to see a well-conceived video demonstrating very closely, for instance, how the new Pieds en l'Air Warlock mockup was created- meaning anything at all relevant in getting the minute and a half mockup to sound as it does, and the finessing entailed to get it there. [...]


Hi @Jish
Doing such a session breakdown is incredibly time-consuming and involves a lot of work.
I'm planning to create a video of this kind and upload it on youtube in the future.

For the moment, I can share 1-2 tips.

Here's an excerpt of my demo, only Violin I Chamber Strings.
This is (obviously) how you shouldn't treat SM instruments:
View attachment Chamber Violins BAD.mp3

Expression fixed to 64 and modulation fixed to 64.

Here's instead a version with dynamics modulations, vibrato modulations and volume automation.
These 3 steps are the most important to get a better musicality.
View attachment Chamber Violins OK.mp3

Dynamics (blue) and vibrato (orange) modulations involved:




Volume automation:





I use dynamics automation to manage short-term correction, then I add volume automation to achieve more musicality, as if I were a 'conductor' telling my (virtual) instruments what to do, in real time.
The volume automation you see affects all the instruments, not only the Violin I Chamber.
In order to do that, try to use VCAs.

As you can see, there are also some mistakes regarding the management of Vibrato (sometimes too strong) and dynamics. But... who cares, if the overall performance sounds good, objective achieved 
This proves that huge attention to detail is not needed if you give priority to musicality!


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## Trevor Meier (Feb 26, 2022)

Jish said:


> It's looking a bit better now that Cristian made several very recent posts, and yes of course almost any who follow this thread can recognize those admirable few members who consistently atleast attempt to address questions- but again, to quote Cristian himself:
> 
> 
> Call it whatever you like, but I find this to be a somewhat obvious statement of sorts to the, yes- customer or even _potential_ customer base that a significant amount up to this point has left to be desired with regards to clearly demonstrating the many various in's and out's of the strings and how to get the best possible from SM when it comes to the actual demo performances, and exactly what is going on in any specific mockup to get them there. For instance, I would like to see a well-conceived video demonstrating very closely, for instance, how the new Pieds en l'Air Warlock mockup was created- meaning anything at all relevant in getting the minute and a half mockup to sound as it does, and the finessing entailed to get it there. The manual? When it comes to deeper and frankly more meaningful learning, only tends to take one so far- any ego aside, perhaps Denzel said it best here:



I appreciate your contributions here @Fa - they are a meaningful addition to our understanding of your product. I think there is a gap in the information available. I’m an experienced musician and have been using digital tools and sample libraries for many years. Samplemodeling Strings is both my favourite and most frustrating library. While all of the information exists on what the various functions of the library do, there is not yet an accessible starting point for how to get the library to sound musical and well-placed in a space. My out-of-the-box attempts with SM don’t approach the musicality I can achieve with other libraries. I’ve no doubt SM can achieve great musicality and tone - the demos prove that.

What is needed, I think, is a brief guide to Samplemodeling Strings from a musicality perspective. For example: I understand what all of the CCs do. I’ve read the manual and experimented with every setting. However, when I enter CC data with the tools I have (Leap Motion, MIDI controller, manually drawing) my musical intention doesn’t translate well to the musical expression of the library. Similarly with sonic placement and tone: the tools I normally use with other libraries (ER and tail reverbs) don’t produce a convincing room placement. So I’m left in a place where I can’t yet achieve musicality with SM that I can with other libraries. 

It’s not a criticism really. It’s an expression of love for this library, and a frustration in the struggle to progress from first date to a more intimate relationship, to use a painful metaphor. 

Does that make sense?


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## Fa (Feb 26, 2022)

Trevor Meier said:


> I appreciate your contributions here @Fa - they are a meaningful addition to our understanding of your product. I think there is a gap in the information available. I’m an experienced musician and have been using digital tools and sample libraries for many years. Samplemodeling Strings is both my favourite and most frustrating library. While all of the information exists on what the various functions of the library do, there is not yet an accessible starting point for how to get the library to sound musical and well-placed in a space. My out-of-the-box attempts with SM don’t approach the musicality I can achieve with other libraries. I’ve no doubt SM can achieve great musicality and tone - the demos prove that.
> 
> What is needed, I think, is a brief guide to Samplemodeling Strings from a musicality perspective. For example: I understand what all of the CCs do. I’ve read the manual and experimented with every setting. However, when I enter CC data with the tools I have (Leap Motion, MIDI controller, manually drawing) my musical intention doesn’t translate well to the musical expression of the library. Similarly with sonic placement and tone: the tools I normally use with other libraries (ER and tail reverbs) don’t produce a convincing room placement. So I’m left in a place where I can’t yet achieve musicality with SM that I can with other libraries.
> 
> ...


It makes a lot of sense, indeed.

That's something in the "supporters and demo makers" to-do list. As a beta tester and consultant of the Samplemodeling developers I was engaged in this type of testing and technical refinements, and that's why I'm open to share my findings and recommendations, while we support Samplemodeling in creating the type of mono-thematic or specific set of suggestions/tutorials.


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## Trevor Meier (Feb 26, 2022)

Cristian Labelli said:


> Hi @Jish
> Doing such a session breakdown is incredibly time-consuming and involves a lot of work.
> I'm planning to create a video of this kind and upload it on youtube in the future.
> 
> ...


@Cristian Labelli Thanks for your many contributions recently. It’s helping greatly with my understanding of this library. 

Interestingly, I find the spatial placement your “what not to do” example still better than what I’m typically able to achieve.


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## Trevor Meier (Feb 26, 2022)

Fa said:


> It makes a lot of sense, indeed.
> 
> That's something in the "supporters and demo makers" to-do list. As a beta tester and consultant of the Samplemodeling developers I was engaged in this type of testing and technical refinements, and that's why I'm open to share my findings and recommendations, while we support Samplemodeling in creating the type of mono-thematic or specific set of suggestions/tutorials.


Ah, my apologies. I mistakenly thought you worked for Samplemodeling. 

I do think it falls to the sample developers to bridge the gap from out-of-the-box to musical starting point. A lack of a good starting point hinders the word-of-mouth spread and useful exploitation of their product - which is the point after all! If it is only for the elitely skilled, so be it - but the rest of us would love to make better use of this library.


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## Fa (Feb 26, 2022)

ABOUT PLACEMENT, AMBIENCE and STAGE CONTROL of SMS&ES

The product is saved with a nice "audition" perspective based on 2 important components, the virtual stage, and the reverb. This is NOT supposed to be a scoring stage or concert placement or ambience at all, it's just to listen in a nice euphonic environment the single instrument/section. Why?

because it is in front of the section/instrument with quite close perspective but large/wet ER and tail.

That can be changed in 2 ways:

1. Using your own stage/ambience effect chain, so:
- manage the reverb. exclude it for solos (cc34 = 0), or use the dry version of sections. Only the dry resulting signal will be a correct starting point for processing, (obviously to avoid artifacts and confusion between the different virtual reflections of the source with the external plugins: perhaps it sounds nice, but it will almost never sound "real" and positioning will always be confusing)

- carefully select the requested amount of ER (cc29) according the type of effect chain: the SM ER are very polished and very neutral, excellent to restore sense of acoustic presence to the anechoic samples without colouring or affecting the sound too much. BUT: they have embedded a virtual positioning and ambience that may, or may not match or merge properly into your choice. So test it, and reduce or even replace them according the effect chain you use (e.g. if you have a sophisticated convolution generating precise ER like MIR, Altiverb or VSS2 be very careful and test the combination: you may even put the cc29 to 0 and use the external ER only).

- neutralize the SM Strings virtual stage: internal panning distance and width should be neutral. A best practice is to start with central pan, zero distance (cc14 = 0) and maximum width (cc37=127) and find your favorite external positioning, then fine tune the source with lower width (e.g. to keep more compact the section and enhance the ensemble effect) and higher distance (e.g. to smooth the sound and create sense od depth)

2. Using the SM default virtual stage, so:
- keep the reverb (corresponding to the tail and overall hall ambience)

- carefully select the amount of ER matching the sound and positioning you are looking for (same process described before)

- play with panning and distance (quite a bit e.g. cc 14 between 30 and 60), reducing the width (quite a lot for stage placement e.g. cc37 between 0 and 64) to find the correct orchestral or studio perspective of each section/instrument)

Following this process is the necessary starting point for realistic placement and ambience: any other creative solution can work, but will provide a higher risk of unnatural results and difficulties, so your taste and ears will rule!

Quoting Dietz, the master of VSL MIR: if it sounds good and real, it's correct


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## Jish (Feb 26, 2022)

Cristian Labelli said:


> Hi @Jish
> Doing such a session breakdown is incredibly time-consuming and involves a lot of work.
> I'm planning to create a video of this kind and upload it on youtube in the future.


Hi Cristian,

I'm well aware that such breakdowns almost always tend to be time-consuming; however, if explaining a 60-90 second mockup (lovely as it is) would result in being such a herculean undertaking to cover in the form of a video, than frankly I think that is a very meaningful statement in itself as to how challenging it is in reality to get these to sound as good as apparently only you, and a very select few others seem to _consistently_ achieve. I don't see this as a criticism of the product necessarily, other than by saying: "Like what you hear? Get ready to invest _alot_ of time to get it there". And if someone has the time for that, fair enough- I only tend to be of the mindset that there simply isn't enough transparency in the industry at large regarding amounts of hours/days/weeks required to get many of these demos to sounds as they do- which I think any would agree are highly useful things to know before clicking a 'purchase' icon. 

If only it just one in-depth breakdown, of a piece as intrinsically involved as this one can be to 'breathe' and come to life for a VI, I think it will will highly valuable in the longrun for anyone seriously considering using these with everything else saturating the field presently.



Trevor Meier said:


> It’s not a criticism really. It’s an expression of love for this library, and a frustration in the struggle to progress from first date to a more intimate relationship, to use a painful metaphor.
> 
> Does that make sense?


Makes plenty of sense to me- if someone in goodwill has tried many of the suggestions or 'prescriptions' offered here and is indeed _not _progressing along as they feel they should be- I think pressing for more clarification and detail is certainly appropriate and no remorse should be experienced in just the process of asking. I too have been following the thread for over a year and respect many of the regulars that assist here, but still feel there is unfinished business in getting the product running as well as it can in a more time-efficient way to the community.


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## Vardaro (Feb 26, 2022)

"Is the violin difficult?"
"Easy to play, hard to learn..."


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## Cristian Labelli (Feb 26, 2022)

[...] I'm well aware that such breakdowns almost always tend to be time-consuming; however, if explaining a 60-90 second mockup (lovely as it is) would result in being such a herculean undertaking to cover in the form of a video, than frankly I think that is a very meaningful statement in itself as to how challenging it is in reality to get these to sound as good as apparently only you, and a very select few others seem to consistently. [...]

Hi @Jish 
I find myself disagreeing with what you wrote in the comment. Making public and official tutorials is time-consuming because you need to take care to be clear, record videos in an orderly fashion, and avoid taking many things for granted. Not because it is time-consuming to program the Samplemodeling instruments, which in the case of "Warlock" took me no more than two hours of work in total. 

One more note: with classic libraries it is maybe easier to get "beautiful" sound out-of-the-box, but from my point of view literally "impossible" to get the musicality and the realism of Samplemodeling, because there is no possibility to put hands on many parameters related to the sound. To achieve a good result with SM it is necessary to study and learn how to use the instrument, and everyone has his own personal approach (mine is different from @philippe goi 's and different from @Fa 's). As much as I can, I will try to guide you (as I have just started to do) in obtaining some skills by sharing my workflow, but the approach is (and must be) personal! 😉


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## Jish (Feb 26, 2022)

Cristian Labelli said:


> Hi @Jish
> I find myself disagreeing with what you wrote in the comment. Making public and official tutorials is time-consuming because you need to take care to be clear, record videos in an orderly fashion, and avoid taking many things for granted. Not because it is time-consuming to program the Samplemodeling instruments, which in the case of "Warlock" took me no more than two hours of work in total.


Trust me, if that at the end of the day really this is the case (regarding amount of time invested in creating such a quality mockup, as in the Peter Warlock example) than I am more than happy to have my suspicions relating time spent and ease-of-use with regards to the library laid to rest- the example you posted did some specific things to a degree that no other singular library on the market can do, presently at least that I am aware of. But, if it is always the same two or three names posting these exemplary examples, then it should come as no great surprise if others wonder what they are specifically doing to achieve such results that appear to set them apart from pretty much everyone else- I still very much agree with the 'spirit' to which Trevor and Darrin were attempting to address here.

As time-consuming as they likely would be, I absolutely am in favor of future video deep-dives with regards to specific mockups. If there truly is significantly more universally accessible 'gold' to be had, it's these type of demonstrations that will ultimately be the most revealing.


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## muziksculp (Feb 26, 2022)

Fa said:


> When approaching the final mix you may engage the VSL MIR venue noise


Hi @Fa Thank You for the helpful feedback. 

I didn't know this was possible. I will have to look into it. This will be very helpful if I can just dial in the venue noise in MIR-Pro. Do you know where this is enabled from in MIR Pro ? 



Fa said:


> the instruments IR (cc100) are very important for the eQ and noise management: some are darker some are brighter, some are uncovering more bow-noise (e.g. in high position KS Bb) some other are smoothing it. So looking for the proper instrument IR and bow-noise (cc21) combination for a phrase is a recommended first step. Obviously eQ and even timbral shaper can be the last fine tuning.


I'm aware of Instrument IR (cc 100), but didn't use it much in my short audio clip above. So, that's another variable I can use to get even closer to what I want to hear. I did dial in a bow noise amount (cc21) that I felt sounded fine, but didn't modulate it in the performance, it was kept static, do you recommend modulating it to get more realistic results even when playing legato style ?



Fa said:


> So were you looking more for a change on the sound texture or a more realistic stage background?


Mostly to have a more realistic stage background. But I'm also curious how this background noise can influence the sound texture ? does it change it in extremely subtle amount, or is it more of a considerable change of texture ? This is a new experimental territory detail for me. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Fa (Feb 26, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Fa Thank You for the helpful feedback.
> 
> ... Do you know where this is enabled from in MIR Pro ?
> 
> ...


- not digressing on MIR technics here, but yes it's in the new tracks menu (add VI, add plugin, add bus etc.): a type of track you may add is the venue noise, for all the MIR Pro venues.

- well, modulating bow noise cc21 it is possible, and it affects the texture, but it's not really recommended/effective. What you can do is for instance put it higher (e.g. 70 or 80) for low positions and/or dark instrument IR, and the opposite make it lower (e.g. 50 or 60) for high positions or brighter instruments IR if you feel (e.g. in pianissimo) the noise is disturbing.

- ok, for stage background then there's a lot of choice, in the methods we listed. My personal preferences goes to venue noise and scoring noise samples, just because they are "the real thing"

For texture management instead I don't recommend background noise, but a careful combination of cc100 (instrument IR) and cc21 (bow-noise), to match your need, and keeping dynamic as much as possible the cc11 of course.


----------



## muziksculp (Feb 26, 2022)

Fa said:


> - not digressing on MIR technics here, but yes it's in the new tracks menu (add VI, add plugin, add bus etc.): a type of track you may add is the venue noise, for all the MIR Pro venues.


Hi @Fa 

Are you referring to VE-Pro ? or MIR-Pro ? These options are for VE-Pro. 

In MIR Pro I found the (Room Tone) Fader in the lower right corner of the GUI, but the fader doesn't move when I try to increase it to the right. Not sure why. 





Thanks.


----------



## Fa (Feb 26, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Fa
> 
> Are you referring to VE-Pro ? or MIR-Pro ? These options are for VE-Pro.
> 
> ...


yes I was referring to VE instances. For the plugin you must create a DAW dummy audio track and insert the MIR plugin then activate the room tone button, to convert it to a room tone generator. In some DAWs it works only during playback, or turning on the "active monitor" of the audio track etc.


----------



## muziksculp (Feb 26, 2022)

Fa said:


> yes I was referring to VE instances. For the plugin you must create a DAW dummy audio track and insert the MIR plugin then activate the room tone button, to convert it to a room tone generator. In some DAWs it works only during playback, or turning on the "active monitor" of the audio track etc.


Hi @Fa 

I will give it a try. Thanks for the tip.


----------



## muziksculp (Feb 26, 2022)

Hi @Fa,

OK, it's working. I inserted MIR Pro on an audio track, and enabled RT on the MIR Pro GUI, I can adjust the volume of the Teledex Room Tone as needed. Super Cool. I have quite a few MIR-Pro venues to choose from, so this is quite handy now. 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## Trevor Meier (Feb 26, 2022)

Fa said:


> ABOUT PLACEMENT, AMBIENCE and STAGE CONTROL of SMS&ES
> 
> The product is saved with a nice "audition" perspective based on 2 important components, the virtual stage, and the reverb. This is NOT supposed to be a scoring stage or concert placement or ambience at all, it's just to listen in a nice euphonic environment the single instrument/section. Why?
> 
> ...


This is very informative - thank you!


----------



## Trevor Meier (Feb 26, 2022)

Cristian Labelli said:


> One more note: with classic libraries it is maybe easier to get "beautiful" sound out-of-the-box, but from my point of view literally "impossible" to get the musicality and the realism of Samplemodeling, because there is no possibility to put hands on many parameters related to the sound. To achieve a good result with SM it is necessary to study and learn how to use the instrument, and everyone has his own personal approach


Yes absolutely! And just as one would not expect someone to sit down with a violin and play well without instruction and guidance, this thread is becoming a useful resource (finally!) to help those of us with lesser skills to learn how it is done.


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## muziksculp (Feb 26, 2022)

Cristian Labelli said:


> One more note: with classic libraries it is maybe easier to get "beautiful" sound out-of-the-box, but from my point of view literally "impossible" to get the musicality and the realism of Samplemodeling, because there is no possibility to put hands on many parameters related to the sound. To achieve a good result with SM it is necessary to study and learn how to use the instrument, and everyone has his own personal approach


Yup ! 

This is what imho. makes Sample Modeling Solo & Ensemble Strings super special, and unique compared to all other sample libraries on the market. Although, SWAM is the closest competition in terms of playability, and customization, and they are working of an Ensemble Strings library as well.

The amount of controls, and possibilities for sound shaping, and timbral customization is a very attractive feature for me, that's what made me buy this library, and I feel that harnessing it's capabilities requires some study, and experimentation, it is an absolute must to dig deep, and spend time with this library, study the user's manual, get tips, and tutorials on how to achieve certain string performances, characteristics, ..etc. from experts (that's what I'm hoping will happen on this thread, and the primary reason I posted this on VI-C).

I think asking questions about the library is a good start, the more feedback is posted here, the more useful this thread will be for users of this library.

I have quite a few questions, which I will post in the coming days. Please post your questions here, this is a good approach to get things moving forward.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## JimDiGritz (Feb 27, 2022)

Hey everyone - can anyone suggest how I might approach recreating a Flautando timbre with the Solo and/or Ensemble string patches? 

I've tried a few of the Timbre shaping options but as a beginner I'm not really sure where to go!


----------



## JimDiGritz (Feb 27, 2022)

Another noob question:

I understood that an *Ensemble *patch includes a variety of instruments and/or sections (eg Violin AND Cello AND Viola).

A *Section *patch is like the BBCSO Violins 1, which is all of the 16 violin players in the 1st section...

The Samplemodeling *Ensemble *patches (multis) are all *Sections*.. unless I'm missing something?

eg
Chamber Violins.nkm
2nd Chamber Violins.nkm
Chamber Cellos.nkm
etc


If I wanted to create an actual String ensemble with SM - what would be the best approach? Creating a new Multi with multiple Solo instruments, each with minor timbre/tuning variations?? I don't believe in Kontakt I can create a Multi of Multis..!?


----------



## DarrinNoName (Feb 27, 2022)

Cristian Labelli said:


> @DarrinNoName I'll try to give as much information as I can to help you achieve the sound you want, but one important note: I applied some "virtual orchestration" techniques (e.g. adding the ambient noise) and used some 'mixing skills' (e.g. the correct placement with sends and returns) that are NOT strictly related to Samplemodeling and have nothing to do with the programming and use of the instrument.
> 
> Sharing this kind of knowledge is something I like to do for the SM community, but I want to make it clear that I'm just reporting something that experienced virtual orchestrators already do with any library.


I apologize if my comment came off snarky or if you felt I was targeting you with what I said. I was just making a point about the many things that make a sound what it is are often things outside of the manual. Again, Love the demo Thank you For sharing your knowledge and approach to how did that demo. Looking forward to learning more.


----------



## muziksculp (Feb 27, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> If I wanted to create an actual String ensemble with SM - what would be the best approach? Creating a new Multi with multiple Solo instruments, each with minor timbre/tuning variations?? I don't believe in Kontakt I can create a Multi of Multis..!?


Use multiple instances of Kontakt, each instance for a specific Strings Section. If you want to trigger them at the same time, you can just assign them to the same midi channel. So, you could have five tracks in your DAW for (Vlns 1, Vlns 2, Vlas, Celli, Basses), each using a separate Kontakt instance. 

I hope this helps you get the basic idea.


----------



## JimDiGritz (Feb 27, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Use multiple instances of Kontakt, each instance for a specific Strings Section. If you want to trigger them at the same time, you can just assign them to the same midi channel. So, you could have five tracks in your DAW for (Vlns 1, Vlns 2, Vlas, Celli, Basses), each using a separate Kontakt instance.
> 
> I hope this helps you get the basic idea.


Thanks, I was just double checking that there wasn't a mixed Ensemble .nki or ensemble option that I had somehow missed!

I'll just use multiple instruments as you suggested!


----------



## Fa (Feb 27, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> Hey everyone - can anyone suggest how I might approach recreating a Flautando timbre with the Solo and/or Ensemble string patches?
> 
> I've tried a few of the Timbre shaping options but as a beginner I'm not really sure where to go!


The flautando effect is possible when cc11 is close to 0, and can be enhanced (with a sound close to "al ponticello") if you use the harmonics (engaged by KS) at low cc11 as well.

For the flautando effect with cc11 close to 0, I would recommend testing the high position first (engaged by KS Bb).

If the bow noise is perceived too strong (or the opposite, not enough) you may adjust it with the bow noise controller cc21.


----------



## JimDiGritz (Feb 27, 2022)

Fa said:


> The flautando effect is possible when cc11 is close to 0, and can be enhanced (with a sound close to "al ponticello") if you use the harmonics (engaged by KS) at low cc11 as well.
> 
> For the flautando effect with cc11 close to 0, I would recommend testing the high position first (engaged by KS Bb).
> 
> If the bow noise is perceived too strong (or the opposite, not enough) you may adjust it with the bow noise controller cc21.


Perfect, thanks!

I presume these settings are in the ballpark for all 4 instruments and the section patches?


----------



## Fa (Feb 27, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> Perfect, thanks!
> 
> I presume these settings are in the ballpark for all 4 instruments and the section patches?


Yes. The instruments, due to their real nature, have slightly different behavior, but they share the same concept, parameters and programming logic.


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## bFooz (Mar 2, 2022)

I've seen this video in another thread and thought it would be useful here as well. It is not about SM specifically, but the important thing is the technique and the controller.


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## muziksculp (Mar 2, 2022)

Ver *2.0.2 Released ! *

From the Sample Modeling Website :

Quote :

_" Dear Samplemodeling Friends,
after the release of the major update v. 2.0.1 as of December 17th 2021, we have been working to achieve greater playability and easier control of attacks. The result is this v. 2.0.2 update, which also includes several optimizations and bugfixes.

Solo, Chamber & Ensemble Strings v. 2.0.2 is now available as a new product or as a free update for previous customers. "_

What's new in v2.0.2?​*Improvements:*


Activation of both spiccato and marcato attacks by CC38 now takes place at any velocity above 40, instead of 100. This results in a much better playability. The intensity of these attacks is under control of CC38 and velocity.
The CC11 ramps mimicking the progressive acceleration of the bow on attacks have been optimized.
For more realistic effect, changing the ensemble size of the chamber instruments does not affect anymore the instrument volume.
Proper handling of release-triggered notes on staccato and marcato has been accomplished.
*Bug fixes:*


Stopping playback on some sequencers or notation programs (like Finale) produced occasionally hanging notes. This has been corrected.
Changing the setting of the button "mapping" in the velocity mapping page was not propagated through the modules of chambers and ensembles when pressing "Synchronize Ensemble". This has been corrected.


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## muziksculp (Mar 2, 2022)

Does ver. 2.0.2 Update require a full download of the library ? or just a replacement of the current .nki Folder ?

OK, Downloading 2.0.2

It is a full download of the library.


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## muziksculp (Mar 2, 2022)

A Big Thank You to the Sample Modeling Development Team for continuing to improve Solo & Ensemble Strings Library via Updates. 

This library keeps getting better, and better, with age, just like wine. 

🍷🍷

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## AdamKmusic (Mar 2, 2022)

I just entered the competition without realising it had closed 🤦‍♂️ but turns out I was quite close! Really does sound like an amazing library, definitely going to be on my shopping list throughout the year! 


_You guessed the piece starts with REAL instruments._
_At 00:35 you guessed the piece switches to MIDI instruments;_
_At 00:40 you guessed the piece switches to REAL instruments;_
_At 00:45 you guessed the piece switches to MIDI instruments;_
_At 00:51 you guessed the piece switches to REAL instruments;_
_At 00:56 you guessed the piece switches to MIDI instruments;_
_At 01:05 you guessed the piece switches to REAL instruments;_
_At 01:10 you guessed the piece switches to MIDI instruments_.


----------



## I like music (Mar 2, 2022)

AdamKmusic said:


> I just entered the competition without realising it had closed 🤦‍♂️ but turns out I was quite close! Really does sound like an amazing library, definitely going to be on my shopping list throughout the year!
> 
> 
> _You guessed the piece starts with REAL instruments._
> ...


Want to sell me your ears? I'll pay good money for them.


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 2, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Proper handling of release-triggered notes on staccato and marcato has been accomplished.


Any elaboration/explanation on what this helps in accomplishing, and some more details about it would be very helpful to understand what it's all about. 

Thanks.


----------



## DarrinNoName (Mar 3, 2022)

AdamKmusic said:


> I just entered the competition without realising it had closed 🤦‍♂️ but turns out I was quite close! Really does sound like an amazing library, definitely going to be on my shopping list throughout the year!
> 
> 
> _You guessed the piece starts with REAL instruments._
> ...


I didn't do the challenge so what were the results? Were they released any where or you got the results after you did the challenge?


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## Giorgio Tommasini (Mar 3, 2022)

DarrinNoName said:


> I didn't do the challenge so what were the results? Were they released any where or you got the results after you did the challenge?


here you are:





__





Samplemodeling Solo & Ensemble Strings Released


Tralen, I'm not sure about what you mean by reassigning an articulation. What you can reassign is a parameter, or function, like expression or vibrato to a CC. Ensemble instruments have been titrated to zero dB, because further amplification, at the nkm level, would lead to saturation. You...




vi-control.net













The Challenge Results


Dear Samplemodeling Friends.




vanilla.samplemodeling.com


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## PerryD (Mar 3, 2022)

I downloaded 2.0.2 last night and installed it this morning. I did a quick test. Love the agility! Very nice update. These are the regular ensembles using a breath controller in keyboard mode. IKM Sunset reverb + FabFilter Pro R chapel 1 reverb.


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## mozart999uk (Mar 3, 2022)

philippe goi said:


> New small contribution!
> Beginning Prelude Grieg with Chamber Strings , spacialization in Parallax Virtual sound stage ( micro DECCA ) Altiverb on Master .
> Mid file for those who want to test and analyze!
> View attachment Prélude Holbergs E.Grieg SampleModeling Chamber Strings (intro).mp4


Wonderful stuff!!!!! Thanks for the midi file. Very useful. Nice to see a fellow reaper user too  Can I ask; did you change any of the defaults of the nki's? Other than assigning dynamics to CC#2? I've set your midi file up in reaper with the chamber ensembles and I'm getting some jumpy dynamics, I think in response to velocities..... Wondered if you used custom expression mapping curves? 

I've attached a couple of note name files. Are they of any use to you (or any other reaper users)? (Sorry - they are in English) . I've renamed some of the CC's so that the CC lanes in the editor have useful names rather than "GP slider 4" 👍


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## mozart999uk (Mar 3, 2022)

Giorgio Tommasini said:


> here you are:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for providing all the files with the answers. I personally don't know of another VSti developer doing so much to help us get the most out of their products!


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## Giorgio Tommasini (Mar 3, 2022)

mozart999uk said:


> Thanks so much for providing all the files with the answers. I personally don't know of a another VSti developer doing so much too help us get the most out of their products!


Thanks so much, you, and all those nice people supporting us with appreciation, criticism, suggestions and with the sincere desire to learn how to get the most out of our instruments. Without all this, our work would have been impossible.


----------



## DarrinNoName (Mar 3, 2022)

Giorgio Tommasini said:


> here you are:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank You.


----------



## Trevor Meier (Mar 4, 2022)

I'm struggling to get SM 2.02 set up with Logic Articulation Sets. I'd like to have everything under articulation control, including each articulation and the register (low/high). However, when I set up the keyswitches it doesn't work as intended.

For example, take these three articulations:

* Legato (low) = KS C2 + A2
* Legato (high) = KS C2 + A#2
* Tremolo (low) = KS E2 + A2

I have a MIDI region that plays two notes of each articulation and then switches to the next articulation in order of the list above. The first and second legato articulations play correctly, but the first note of the tremolo won't sound. In Kontakt's keyboard view, it shows the E2 + A2 in the down position, but C2 is green (indicating the script has returned to the default articulation).

I've tried this in a bunch of different ways, with both high & low velocities for the keyswitches. I can't get consistent playback. Anyone able to help?


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## muziksculp (Mar 4, 2022)

Trevor Meier said:


> I'm struggling to get SM 2.02 set up with Logic Articulation Sets. I'd like to have everything under articulation control, including each articulation and the register (low/high). However, when I set up the keyswitches it doesn't work as intended.
> 
> For example, take these three articulations:
> 
> ...


Sorry, I Don't like, or use Logic Pro. Hopefully you can get help from Logic users here. 

But, You can always switch to Studio One Pro 5 and use Sound-Variations, imho. it's a much better system than both Cubase and Logic for articulation switching.


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## muziksculp (Mar 8, 2022)

Hi,

So, how are *Sample Modeling : Solo & Ens. Strings* users getting along with ver 2.0.2 so far ? 

Are you able to get the ensemble strings sound to your taste ? If not, what are you struggling with ?

How about the short articulation ? Do you find them improved, and more snappy, and responsive to your playing when using (CC 11 + velocity + CC 38) ? 

Any comments on the new version 2.0.2 for both solo & ens. strings ? 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## aka70 (Mar 8, 2022)

This is very impressive. I don't know if it's easy to achieve this sound from scratch but the overall performance is fantastic


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## muziksculp (Mar 8, 2022)

aka70 said:


> This is very impressive. I don't know if it's easy to achieve this sound from scratch but the overall performance is fantastic


Yes, it surely is an impressive sound, and a very realistic performance. 

Is it easy to achieve this sound from scratch, well, from my current experience with this library so far, I would say, no it's not easy, and it takes quite a bit of effort and add-ons to get to this result. 

That's why I have been requesting from Sample Modeling to post some in-depth video tutorials on how best to use this library to achieve these types of results, but they just keep posting impressive videos, without the how to part. I hope they still plan to post some in-depth video tutorials showing the process, and related details in some videos. Sadly, so far they have not done this.


----------



## leon chevalier (Mar 8, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Yes, it surely is an impressive sound, and a very realistic performance.
> 
> Is it easy to achieve this sound from scratch, well, from my current experience with this library so far, I would say, no it's not easy, and it takes quite a bit of effort and add-ons to get to this result.
> 
> That's why I have been requesting from Sample Modeling to post some in-depth video tutorials on how best to use this library to achieve these types of results, but they just keep posting impressive videos, without the how to part. I hope they still plan to post some in-depth video tutorials showing the process, and related details in some videos. Sadly, so far they have not done this.


I'm a huge fan of Sample Modeling and I like the SM Strings 2.02 so far. SM Brass is my go to for brass. A couple of thoughts regarding SM strings :

The wet ensemble template sound good to me out of the box...
... But I keep on layering it with others lib to get the sound I want.
I don't understand the need for cc38 when attack could just be mapped to velocity. It would be much more natural to play. (On SM Brass I only use attack)
Overall my main thought is that they could remove that learning curve by implementing some internal script that shape the sound in real time in context of what is playing. That would end all those debates around SM instruments and make 99% of the customers happy. The 1% that would go deep into performance programming could just turn it of.
I love the SM guys and I think they are genius but they might need a better marketing approach. I can't think of a car brand that would say : my cars are the best but you need one year to learn how to drive it !

I feel like SM is Tesla but without the auto pilot! Please give us the auto pilot!

Anyway, Sorry for the complain, I will keep on using SM instruments because they really are fascinating and they keep on obsessing me !


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 8, 2022)

I'm trying to figure out what *CC 27* is good for, it's says it controls on the string or off the string Release of the bow.

If value is above 64, it activate the Off-the-String Release, and if below 64, it activates the On-the -String Release.

Does off-the-String means a bowing action that starts on the string, but ends off the string, and the release is the sound of the bow when it leaves the string ? or .... ?

I'm also guessing that on-the-string Release is the sound of the bow when it stays on the string, the release heard when this bowing style is used is different to the off-the-string bowing, the problem is I can't hear the difference when I change CC 27 values. Is there something I'm missing here ? How can I hear what CC 27 does clearly, or is this a very minimalistic sonic difference that is too faint to be heard. which I guess means CC 27 is not that useful, or even needed.

Also some explanation on CC 26 (note-on-attack duration), and how, and when to use it, and what exactly it is doing would be very helpful.

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 8, 2022)

leon chevalier said:


> ... But I keep on layering it with others lib to get the sound I want.


That's not a good sign. A library that offers Solo, Chamber, and large Ensemble Strings should be able to cater the sound you are looking for without having to layer it with other String libraries. I guess it doesn't do it for you.

Have you tried to edit the library in more detail, it offers so many options to tweak it, plus you can use other dsp effects to change the sound.


----------



## leon chevalier (Mar 8, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> That's not a good sign. A library that offers Solo, Chamber, and large Ensemble Strings should be able to cater the sound you are looking for without having to layer it with other String libraries. I guess it doesn't do it for you.
> 
> Have you tried to edit the library in more detail, it offers so many options to tweak it, plus you can use other dsp effects to change the sound.


I should have said that I layer the ensemble instrument. The solo ones are great.

I'm a very happy SMS user, I'm just a bit frustrated because I see a huge potential not being used. They are sitting one a gold mine and don't want to dig it.

This is some test I've done one year ago : I layered SMS with CSS, I wanted to get on patch that could play anything.

I've came back from this idea, and I have now better results by layering SMS with different CSS articulation depending on the nature of the played phrase.


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 8, 2022)

From the ver 2.0.1 notes of what's new 

*Quote : *

"_Chamber Ensembles have been added. They simulate a small group of players starting from four solo instruments up to small sections. Chamber Ensembles differ from Large Ensembles in many respects, the most important being the ability to play a very expressive, nearly synchronous vibrato. In our large Ensembles instead, expressive vibrato is both under control of CC1 and CC99, which act to recreate the richer sound of asynchronous vibrato. They can be used as a standalone multi (for chamber music) or in combination with the corresponding Large Ensemble (for symphonic music): the combination has a richer sound, and adding the more soloistic vibrato of the Chambers to the Ensembles yields a much greater expressiveness._ "

Has anyone tried layering the Chamber Strings with the Large Ensemble Strings to get a richer sounding ensemble strings sound ? 

Any audio examples of this in action ? 

Thanks.


----------



## Jish (Mar 8, 2022)

leon chevalier said:


> Overall my main thought is that they could remove that learning curve by implementing some internal script that shape the sound in real time in context of what is playing. That would end all those debates around SM instruments and make 99% of the customers happy. The 1% that would go deep into performance programming could just turn it of.


Yeah, a very similar thought occurred as well but have no idea how difficult it would be to implement practically (atleast, currently).



leon chevalier said:


> I'm a very happy SMS user, I'm just a bit frustrated because I see a huge potential not being used. They are sitting one a gold mine and don't want to dig it.


In a better world, the SM team someway, somehow would have teamed up or simply left off where Eric Lindemann stopped with Synful Orchestra. Both the strings _and_ the brass, would get such a massive boost in real-time playability performance quality that just imagining it 'clicking' the way Synful already began to back in like 08' is cruel even to think about. 

For now, perhaps crossed fingers for in-depth, _specific_ walkthroughs is the best we can hope for (as well as continued tasteful picks of pieces that require innate musicality to really come to life, such as the Warlock example).


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## muziksculp (Mar 9, 2022)

Jish said:


> For now, perhaps crossed fingers for in-depth, _specific_ walkthroughs is the best we can hope for (as well as continued tasteful picks of pieces that require innate musicality to really come to life, such as the Warlock example).


Yes, that's very important, and it would be super helpful. 

@Jish , Your avatar's signature applies perfectly to this library. 'Unsolved Sample Mysteries' , this one is a classic case. 

Hopefully they will post some in-depth video tutorials (soon).


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 9, 2022)

Hi,

I'm not sure if this is a bug, but all the Ensemble Strings, and Solo Strings react to CC #7, but the newer Chamber String Ensembles do not. I find this odd, maybe it's a bug.

@Giorgio Tommasini , Can you please let us know if this is something that needs to be fixed, It would surely make more sense for the Chamber Ensembles to react to CC #7 Volume control. like all the other instruments do. 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 10, 2022)

Hi,

Sample Modeling Solo & Ens. Strings users, can anyone confirm that the Chamber Strings do not react to CC 7 Volume control ? 

The Solo and Ensemble do react to CC7. 

Thanks.


----------



## Giorgio Tommasini (Mar 10, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> Sample Modeling Solo & Ens. Strings users, can anyone confirm that the Chamber Strings do not react to CC 7 Volume control ?
> 
> ...


musiksculp,

we are testing it. Apparently the chamber instrument do not respond to CC7. I'll keep you posted when we'll get a better insight. Thanks for reporting this.

Giorgio


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 10, 2022)

Giorgio Tommasini said:


> musiksculp,
> 
> we are testing it. Apparently the chamber instrument do not respond to CC7. I'll keep you posted when we'll get a better insight. Thanks for reporting this.
> 
> Giorgio


Thank You @Giorgio Tommasini .

Hopefully you can get this detail easily fixed.


----------



## Cristian Labelli (Mar 22, 2022)

Hi everyone  

Seeing all the requests for tutorials on the strings we decided to make the MIDI files of “Warlock” available for download, since a good and immediate way to “learn” programming is just to see how it’s made from the inside 

You can download it here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1TC9S2n1GYyKC7uQmmp36ZglN0Y1QD_rB?usp=sharing

PLEASE NOTE: you have to remap the soloist’s dynamics to CC#2 (go to re-mapping window -> Realtime soundshaping), since they were performed with Breath Controller.


You can consider this as the starting point, you can add volume automation, reverbs, processing, or whatever you want, but in this case, for didactic purposes, we are just focusing on *CC#11* *Dynamics* (or CC#2 if you use Breath Controller) and *CC#1* *Modulation*. It’s true that SM instruments give the possibility to control a bunch of parameters, but a good use of CC#11/2 and CC#1 grants 90% of the final result 

If you’re interested in more advanced topics, please check the previous posts, for example:
- Influence of deterministic pitch modulation on the overall realism of Samplemodeling Strings MIDI mockups
https://vi-control.net/community/th...ps-tricks-demos-tutorials.119043/post-5021799
https://vi-control.net/community/th...ps-tricks-demos-tutorials.119043/post-5022460
- Layering, Reverb and Ambience, Noise: 
https://vi-control.net/community/th...ps-tricks-demos-tutorials.119043/post-5053456

Back to us: 

the most important thing to consider is that the real instruments' sound constantly modulates, it’s never static. The variations, moreover, are not slight but rather wide-ranging. Starting from this principle, I always create wide curves on dynamics and vibrato, as you can see in the MIDI files. Samplemodeling instruments have the capability, IMHO, to offer the most extensive and most responsive control of dynamics and vibrato you can find.

Speaking about *dynamics*, I generally proceed taking into consideration both ‘phrasing’ variations and ‘notes’ variations: 

The first are meant to follow the ‘intention’ of the musical phrases, e.g. going from _*pp*_ to _*ff*_ to _*mf*_. In this case, we are talking about wide and slow variations that follow the dynamics expressed by the composer.
The second, the ‘notes’ variations, are meant to give expressivity to the single notes. In this case, smaller and shorter variations are involved (sometimes with a concave arc shape sometimes with a convex arc shape, depending on the need), which add up with the dynamics of the musical phrases.
To better explain this aspect I attached below 2 screenshots with the related audio file.

*1) Dynamics pt1 - not recommended*




View attachment Dynamics pt1 - not recommended.mp3

The first one is the approach I don't recommend: it just takes into consideration phrasing variation, but as you can hear the result is not so realistic.

*2) Dynamics pt1 - suggested*




View attachment Dynamics pt1 - suggested.mp3

In the second, a more accurate control of dynamics is applied, avoiding that annoying sense of static. 

*Considerations: *
In the first image, you can see the wider variation, in the second a more accurate work has been done focusing on the single notes (still following the musical sentence phrasing). Over time, I've observed that by taking both of these aspects into account, I have been able to achieve greater musicality and expressiveness.

Naturally, I had to learn how to play the instruments, but with a bit of practice you’ll be able to include both of these aspects while performing the lines. I generally use BC but the same result can be achieved with the mod-wheel, expression pedal, MIDI pad or other suitable physical controller.


----------



## Cristian Labelli (Mar 22, 2022)

I bring a further example, showing the importance of small variation

*3) Dynamics pt2 - not recommended*





*4) Dynamics pt2 - suggested*




View attachment Dynamics pt2 - suggested.mp3



Speaking about *vibrato*, the process is quite similar but a bit simpler:

I just select the notes I want to be ‘vibrated’ and create a marked variation on the *cc#1*, in order to have a sound that constantly modulates and never gives the impression to be static.

PLEASE NOTE: the parameter 'vibrato delay' CC#23 is very important. If you want to have complete control of the vibrato, I suggest setting it to 0. 

You can find an example of what I consider a ‘not recommended’ way to proceed and a ‘suggested’ one

*1) Vibrato pt1 - not recommended*




View attachment Vibrato pt1 - not recommended.mp3

*2) Vibrato pt1 - suggested*




View attachment Vibrato pt1 - suggested.mp3


Note: also the one I don’t recommend sounds good enough but extremely repetitive: our aim is to avoid that! 

I hope you enjoyed these quick tips, don't hesitate to ask me if you have any questions!


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## muziksculp (Mar 22, 2022)

Hi @Cristian Labelli ,

Thank You So Much for the helpful info. you posted above. This will surely be a good study material post, I'm sure it will help many users of this library. 

But, I still feel that some in-depth video tutorials would be a very welcome learning resource, it would be great if Sample Modeling team can put some videos tutorials out in the near future. Remember it is 2022, and we have YouTube. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Trevor Meier (Mar 22, 2022)

Cristian Labelli said:


> I bring a further example, showing the importance of small variation
> 
> *3) Dynamics pt2 - not recommended*
> 
> ...


This is truly excellent information @Cristian Labelli - thank you for sharing. It really helps to see the specific details in context.


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## muziksculp (Mar 24, 2022)

*Sample Modeling Solo, Chamber & Ens. Strings Update v. 2.0.2 (b) is available. *

https://www.samplemodeling.com/news

Quote from their website 

" _Dear Samplemodeling Friends,
a *new update v. 2.0.2(b) for SM Solo, Chamber & Ensemble Strings* is available for download. It includes important bugfixes:_


_Re-enabling CC7 volume control of the chamber instruments._
_Correcting the control of the ensemble size (CC95) in the 2nd Chamber Violins._
_Correcting some CC remapping issues._ "


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## muziksculp (Mar 24, 2022)

Hi @Giorgio Tommasini ,

Thank You for the *SM 2.0.2 (b) update* that fixed some of the issues with the previous version. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## muziksculp (Mar 28, 2022)

Hi,

I have a list of questions that I thought will be useful to post here, to get some feedback from users of this library, and possibly from the developers, and @Cristian Labelli .

SM Strings Quetions :

1* CC26 & CC27 usage ? (Attack and Release) How best to use them ? and Should they be automated ?
2* Are you using the Polyphonic Sustain Mode ? or just Legato of this library ?
3* Detache articulation using (Sust.Pedal) what are they best used for in musical context ?
4* The Pizz. don't sound good. I wish they will be improved in the future. Do you agree ?
5* Most important and frequently used CC# you are using and automating ?
6* Are you using a Spatial Positioning Plugin when using this library ?
7* Are you customizing the instruments more to your taste using the Timbral-Shaping feature ?
8* Are you using this library more for the Solo Instruments, or the Ensembles ? and which ones do you think sound better (Solo or Ens.) ?
* Are you able to achieve very lush, romantic style string ensemble sounds using the ensembles of this library ?
9* Do you use the built-in Virtual Stage/Reverbs of the Ensembles to help you get a lusher sound, or have them turned down all the way to zero, and use your own reverb/s, or both ?
10* Are you layering the Solo with Chamber, or Ens. Strings ? or Chamber with Ens ?

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## JimDiGritz (Mar 28, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have a list of questions that I thought will be useful to post here, to get some feedback from users of this library, and possibly from the developers, and @Cristian Labelli .
> 
> ...


Fantastic questions @muziksculp - I have a couple of thoughts:

1 - would love to hear anyone's experience with these...

3 - I've tried to use a footswitch to handle detache keyswitches but I'm pretty hopeless

4 - Pizz are okay to my ears but perhaps need some more variation... the high velocity pizz especially is a bit 'unique' and stands out to my ears if you use it more than once..
5 - Pretty basic CC mapping here, in addition to 11 I use the upper PB wheel mapped to CC#09 which is mapped to Vib Intensity.. I really like the way it snaps back to no vibrato (eg at the end of a note)... nothing worse than hearing a string still vibrato'ing after release. I also set my CC12 to vib speed, but try not to move outside the pulse of the phrase too much - but perhaps emulate a real player...
6 - Am using Panagement after recommendations on here - seems to work well to me!

8 - Definitely focusing on the Solos for now...
9 - As 6, panagement's ER, I have a late tail reverb on my whole orch template..


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## Fa (Mar 29, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have a list of questions that I thought will be useful to post here, to get some feedback from users of this library, and possibly from the developers, and @Cristian Labelli .
> 
> ...


Hello my friend, here you are:

1. We need a dedicated thread for that alone LOL. But both are quite simple as a concept. the most important in my opinion is the cc26, because you may raise value (64 to 127) for slurred legato to glissando, while you may move to lower value (64 to 0) for crisp fingered legato down to short staccatos. Actually it's a multiplier of the velocity, then you should imagine it as the "velocity response on attack and legato glide" modulator. CC27 is less relevant on articulation but still has some important effects for the overall tail (enhancing or mitigating the effect of release and so shortening the spiccatos as well).

2. Polyphonic sustain is perfect for real time improvisation (e.g. to get inspired with violins ensembles) when you play chords and polyphonic phrase on a keyboard. It's also useful for double stop scoring polyphonic writing of all the instruments when it's requested. So obviously you should use it!

3. This is IMHO just a shortcut to get in real-time a fast switch to large intervals filling and continuous automatic bow-change. It's also a fast shortcut for quick programming of detachè. But I prefer to program my detachè with more subtle use of note length and other parameters for the best realism to be honest (because the default detachè is quite mellow and a bit repetitive, while real performances have a wide range of expressions and different bow strokes).

4. I don't agree. It's perhaps a matter of fine tuning, but it's quite flexible compared to libraries. Yes it has a slightly thin sound in the ensemble, but in general I think that you may get the very same sound of a sampled library just using appropriate ambience. (it sounds pretty dry and close out of the box, and it doesn't help to make the sound immediately "orchestral")

5. beside the obvious that MUST be automated (cc11, cc1, cc19) I think that the correct choice of cc26 (attack time) and cc38 (attack articulation) has dramatic importance in getting the right articulations, (very small effort for a super-dramatic improvement) and a clever automation of subtle pitch bend variations can make the final job excellent. The advanced programming can involve amount of noise (don't overdo it, or you will get just unnatural results) and the 3 pitch variation parameters (attack detuning and dynamic modulation are very critical for improving chamber and ensemble realism, and they have to be adjusted according the musical content: I will dedicate a post to that)

6. Of course I do  but: the internal default is NOT ready to use for orchestral placement, it's just for audition purpose only. You MUST change it for getting orchestral positioning in the Virtual Stage of the instrument (e.g. the right panning, increased distance, and reduced width) with the Kontakt internal convolution reverb features of SM Strings, OR you must use the dry version and adjust the ER (even to zero if the ambience of your choice has embedded strong ER) to prepare the instrument for external convolution/positioning (e.g. Altiverb, MIR, VSS2 etc.)

7. Timbral shaper is a super-cool feature but it's also the most artificial one. Use it as the very last resource or for experimental sound, or you may destroy the natural and realistic sound of the instruments. The less, the better. A very cool option is to create very subtle modulation of some harmonics to mimic the sound instability of the real life... I did after analysing real recordings and comparing them with the harmonic structure of the SM strings sustain... but guys that's really esoteric and you have to know what you are doing and why, or you will just get weird results.

Customisation is more about select the body IR of your choice for the context (cc100) and set up the "still" initialisation of the parameters to your taste (I mean the CC that you won't automate, but perhaps you want to a different value than default).

8. The solos are out-of-this-world better than anything else on the market today, full stop. So it's obviously my go-to for any solo. But chambers are also a dream come true. Finally an expressive intimate and detailed sound at your fingertips, no more frustration with frozen expression or blurry cross fading of libraries (even when they have amazing sustain and shorts... none of the libraries on the market can do what the SM Chamber Strings do with vibrato, crescendo, portamento, pitch variation, attack variation, and everything that makes a performance real). Ensemble are not the top stand alone, but still can do better phrasing and have better expression than any library: so the secret to get more detailed or lush or romantic soaring sound out of them is merging them with the chamber ensemble and/or other libraries. The final result is outstanding... no better combination existing today in my opinion.

9. Quoting Dietz (the VSL MIR master) "if it sounds good, it's right" is the rule for ambience. But... it's unlikely sounding good anything that doesn't have a coherence with reality, if realism is your aim. Then if you look for realism, never mix-up internal reverb and external positioning, the result will be inconsistent reflections and weird spatial perception.If you use the external plug-in turn-off as much as you can in the internal stage to get the source signal as dry and central as requested by your set-up. That's the UNIQUE advantage of this instrument vs. all the other products, being recorded anechoic, and so flexible to any real space simulation without artefacts.

10. Yes of course. The SM Strings are a tool-box (I will dedicate a post to that point) enabling almost any possible strings set-up you may think of. I would say you MUST do it to get the best out of the product.

The last experiment I did, for instance, was to create an orchestral large section out of several chamber instances (each chamber instance with the cc95 to zero is representing a real group of 4 players):
- 4 chamber instances = 16 real players. 3 chamber instances =12 real players etc.

The result can be poor and artificial or amazing and surprisingly real: what's the difference? Of course it's about differentiation. Each instance must have a different IR (cc100) and slightly different velocity/cc input (you may speed up and automate it with Logic modulators and transformer, Cubase transform, Divisimate app, etc. or simply manually humanize/randomize the "cloned" tracks etc.). Last but not least a slightly different timing (note start) and different pitch bend modulation per instance will make the sound rich and realistic.

There's a universe to explore and a lot of fun using the instruments in the way they were designed: to make YOUR OWN sound and performance, instead of the, maybe nice, but frozen recorded one of the standard libraries.


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## muziksculp (Mar 29, 2022)

Hi @Fa ,

Thank You for your very helpful, and detailed reply to my questions. I really appreciate it. 




Fa said:


> the 3 pitch variation parameters (attack detuning and dynamic modulation are very critical for improving chamber and ensemble realism, and they have to be adjusted according the musical content: I will dedicate a post to that)


This would be very helpful. Thanks. 



Fa said:


> 4. I don't agree. It's perhaps a matter of fine tuning, but it's quite flexible compared to libraries. Yes it has a slightly thin sound in the ensemble, but in general I think that you may get the very same sound of a sampled library just using appropriate ambience. (it sounds pretty dry and close out of the box, and it doesn't help to make the sound immediately "orchestral")


Well, I'm not satisfied with the way the Pizz. sound, especially for the ensembles, if anyone is able to make the Ens.Pizz sound great, I'm very interested in an audio proof of that. 



Fa said:


> 3. This is IMHO just a shortcut to get in real-time a fast switch to large intervals filling and continuous automatic bow-change. It's also a fast shortcut for quick programming of detachè. But I prefer to program my detachè with more subtle use of note length and other parameters for the best realism to be honest (because the default detachè is quite mellow and a bit repetitive, while real performances have a wide range of expressions and different bow strokes).


I'm still not very clear what you use, and how you go about creating detache bowing, when not using the sustain pedal shortcut. I think a tutorial on this detail alone would be helpful, or a video. 

Do use the normal legato mode to program the detache ? or .... ? 



Fa said:


> Ensemble are not the top stand alone, but still can do better phrasing and have better expression than any library: so the secret to get more detailed or lush or romantic soaring sound out of them is merging them with the chamber ensemble and/or other libraries. The final result is outstanding... no better combination existing today in my opinion.


Thanks for the tip, and Yes, I agree. 



Fa said:


> The solos are out-of-this-world better than anything else on the market today, full stop. So it's obviously my go-to for any solo. But chambers are also a dream come true.


Yes, the Solos are the stars of this library, they sound outstanding, and feel much more rewarding, and realistic sounding than the ensembles. But as you said layering the ensembles with other libraries, and the chamber strings will yield great results. 



Fa said:


> 10. Yes of course. The SM Strings are a tool-box (I will dedicate a post to that point) enabling almost any possible strings set-up you may think of. I would say you MUST do it to get the best out of the product.


OK, great to know this. Thanks. 



Fa said:


> 10. Yes of course. The SM Strings are a tool-box (I will dedicate a post to that point) enabling almost any possible strings set-up you may think of. I would say you MUST do it to get the best out of the product.
> 
> The last experiment I did, for instance, was to create an orchestral large section out of several chamber instances (each chamber instance with the cc95 to zero is representing a real group of 4 players):
> - 4 chamber instances = 16 real players. 3 chamber instances =12 real players etc.
> ...


Thanks. This is very interesting, I haven't tried experimenting with this, so this is very useful info. and encouraging me to further experiment with this area of this library. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## DJiLAND (Mar 29, 2022)

Yes! I ended up buying this.😉
I have so many Strings libraries, but I still have a thirst for exactly the nuances I want.
To be honest, SM SES isn't good enough to even say it's good. It's really so amazing.
The tone of the string is also sufficient. (Of course, I will still use sample library for the low strings of a simple pattern.)
It seems that my worries about my strings are over.(Proportionally my wallet is not happy.)
Solo, chamber and ensemble are all great!

I was worried that it would require a lot of programming, but this is more efficient than spending a lot of time and effort trying to get the nuance I want with a sample library.
And the programming of this also doesn't seem to be as difficult as my worries. (Of course it's not that simple)

I tested this by putting it in the MIR and found it to work very well.
However, the atmosphere in the room feels a little awkward because the sound feels TOO MUCH clean and clear.
So I tried blending the Synchron Strings at a very low volume and the sound of the room was much richer.
Using the distant patch rather than the others served this purpose well.
(Or maybe it's an ambience patch. It happened today, but I can't remember.
Anyway, using Tree or Surround mics seemed to work better than close or spot mics.)
The problem is that I have to sequence the same string line twice for blending.😂
And the EQ will cut or shelving the SM SES's air a bit.

Of course, this is just my first impression from a short test. Now let's do some more research by putting it in my project as the main string.😙


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## Cristian Labelli (Mar 29, 2022)

@Fa , 


Fa said:


> Hello my friend, here you are: [...]


your accuracy and clarity are commendable (and I really envy you for that ).
I agree with every single word!


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## muziksculp (Mar 29, 2022)

Oh.. should I be optimistic, or hopeful that tSample Modeling will post some new in-depth video tutorials of this library in the near future, or should I just not bother waiting. Since it has been requested several times, but nothing has happened so far ?


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## Cristian Labelli (Mar 29, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> new in-depth video tutorials


Hi @muziksculp
What do you mean exactly with in-depth video? Please be more specific, because I've already made several posts concerning advanced and basic topics, but it never seems to be enough! 

Moreover, I already mentioned that we're working hard to create videos, but it takes time and in the meantime we are trying to provide you with basic/advanced tutorials here on V.I., with the desire of giving you the answers to all your questions.

Please also consider that we have uploaded MIDI files of my recent works, and you can find a lot of information just by looking at the parameters used and the execution method.


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## muziksculp (Mar 29, 2022)

Cristian Labelli said:


> Moreover, I already mentioned that we're working hard to create videos, but it takes time and in the meantime we are trying to provide you with basic/advanced tutorials here on V.I., with the desire of giving you the answers to all your questions.


Hi @Cristian Labelli ,

All I'm asking is if we can expect new in-depth videos, in-depth means with a good amount of detail, and not rushed, explainging/showing different scenarios, and maybe ways to use a specific features of this library. Especially in a musical context. I hope this makes my terminology clearer.

I know you posted the midi files of one of the compositions, which is very helpful, and I commented on that earlier in this thread. Thank You.

I have requested video tutorials a while ago, more than a month, or two ago, so I'm not rushing at this point. I just wanted to get some feedback given no new in-depth videos were posted so far. I think this is not too much to ask for. Thanks.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Bollen (Mar 29, 2022)

Perhaps as a string player I could give a different perspective.


muziksculp said:


> 1* CC26 & CC27 usage ? (Attack and Release) How best to use them ? and Should they be automated ?


CC26: this is like a multi-purpose knob that does all kinds of things. The best way to look at it is dividing it into 3 combinations. 
`1.- With velocity - it's literally an attack knob. This might be confusing because the velocity also seems to act as an attack parameter, but think of CC26 as a further edit to the attack set by velocity e.g. play a low velocity and move CC26 to 0 and then to 127, you will notice how the attack goes from instant to a crescendo almost.`

`2.- With overlaps - it basically controls how much of a glide (portamento) should be between notes, this is also proportional to the velocity of the 2nd note.`

`3.- With CC38 - this is perhaps the hardest to understand for non-players, but I like to think of it as bow attack control. A string can be attacked in three ways, putting great pressure on the bow and moving it, simply putting it (gently) above the string and moving it and letting the bow fall on the string and moving it. These are the 3 settings in order from 0-127. CC26 has some effect here, but nowhere near what I would expect. In reality a setting of CC38 0 and CC26 127 should sound something like this:`
View attachment CC38 High attack.mp3

CC27: is also bow control, but how you stop it instead. Off the string would be something I only perform at the end of a piece on the final ta-da or if I'm playing rolling arpeggios where I don't have the time to stop the string. It would also inevitably happen when playing a fast ostinato, where the bow itself will stop the next note. So a good rule of thumb is, if the notes are changing keep it below 64, unless doing a rolling-arpeggio or a string, accented final note where you want the string to keep ringing.


muziksculp said:


> 2* Are you using the Polyphonic Sustain Mode ? or just Legato of this library ?


I use the polyphonic quite a bit for double stops where I don't want both notes attacked at the same time. It's also very useful for rolling arpeggios.


muziksculp said:


> 3* Detache articulation using (Sust.Pedal) what are they best used for in musical context ?


I really don't consider this a detaché articulation at all, I only ever use it as a rebow of the same note. Very useful to simulate a real rebow on long notes. Although SM appears to have a real rebow it's impossibly long, like the bow is about 10 meters long...😂


muziksculp said:


> 4* The Pizz. don't sound good. I wish they will be improved in the future. Do you agree ?


I really like them, but they could really use a legato (hammer-on). And I wouldn't mind a left-hand pizz either, although that can be emulated easier. The snap are also great and use them a lot, but they definitely need more round robins. Actually all the patches need more variation...


muziksculp said:


> 5* Most important and frequently used CC# you are using and automating ?


Well obviously CC11, but I use them all. Unlike others, I prefer to use CC1 in conjunction with CC19 i.e. I tend to vary the rate of the vibrato according to dynamics, not too much though. You could use another sample library as a reference.


muziksculp said:


> 6* Are you using a Spatial Positioning Plugin when using this library ?


Yes, VSS 2 with 7th Heaven.


muziksculp said:


> 8* Are you using this library more for the Solo Instruments, or the Ensembles ? and which ones do you think sound better (Solo or Ens.) ?


Mostly I've used Solos so far. I think they all sound pretty good and they all have the same problems. 


muziksculp said:


> Are you able to achieve very lush, romantic style string ensemble sounds using the ensembles of this library ?


That's what they do best, the portato keyswitch helps a lot, but also riding CC11, CC1 and CC19 contextually.


muziksculp said:


> 9* Do you use the built-in Virtual Stage/Reverbs of the Ensembles to help you get a lusher sound, or have them turned down all the way to zero, and use your own reverb/s, or both ?


No, never... On any library or VI.


muziksculp said:


> 10* Are you layering the Solo with Chamber, or Ens. Strings ? or Chamber with Ens ?


Not yet, but I'm very likely to use multiple Chambers when I get to ensembles. I was used to working with VSL dimension, so I know that if I want a more multidimensional performance I'll need separate patches... We'll see.

Hope that's helpful!


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## muziksculp (Mar 29, 2022)

Hi @Bollen ,

Thank You Very Much for your helpful, and detailed answers to all of my 10 questions. I really appreciate it. 

Regarding achieving a lush-romantic sound with the Ensembles, you answered :



Bollen said:


> That's what they do best, the portato keyswitch helps a lot, but also riding CC11, CC1 and CC19 contextually.


I find this very interesting, why do you think the portato articulation sound best for achieving a more lush-romantic ensemble sound ? I haven't tested this, but I wasn't expecting to read this. Thanks. 



Bollen said:


> I really like them, but they could really use a legato (hammer-on). And I wouldn't mind a left-hand pizz either, although that can be emulated easier. The snap are also great and use them a lot, but they definitely need more round robins. Actually all the patches need more variation...


Regarding the Pizz. of the ensembles, I'm still not convinced they sound good, maybe it's my taste, or something else. I will post an audio clip showing what the Ens. Pizz sound like when I use them. I also find the Snapp Pizz. too loud and gets triggered at lower vel values, which make playing only pizz. kind of hard without the Snapp uninvited surprise. I also noticed that the user manual mentions that CC 27 controls the decay curve of the Pizz. I haven't tested this, and it might be one of the reasons I might not be getting decent results when playing the ensemble Pizz. 



Bollen said:


> I really don't consider this a detaché articulation at all, I only ever use it as a rebow of the same note. Very useful to simulate a real rebow on long notes. Although SM appears to have a real rebow it's impossibly long, like the bow is about 10 meters long...😂



LOL.. Yes, they could be more useful as rebows. Actually, I never tried using the real rebow articulation. is the rebow enabled via a keyswitch ? or ... ? I refered to the user's manual, but didn't find any keyswitch or mechanism mentioned to trigger the long rebow you mention. (using the 10 meter bow)  How do you enable it ?

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## Bollen (Mar 29, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I never tried using the real rebow articulation. is the rebow enabled via a keyswitch ? or ... ? I refered to the user's manual, but didn't find any keyswitch or mechanism mentioned to trigger the long rebow you mention. (using the 10 meter bow)  How do you enable it ?


It happens automatically when you either hold the notes for a long time, or you trigger another note without overlapping. In the former it's unrealistically long:

This is the real one:
View attachment Rebow Real.mp3


This is SM:
View attachment Rebow SM.mp3


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## Bollen (Mar 29, 2022)

Actually, I still find myself having to reach for VSL especially for ostinatos. They are particularly bad when using the Poly KS or double stops:

This is VSL
View attachment Violin Repetitions.mp3

This is SM
View attachment Violin Repetitions SM.mp3


This is VSL Stopped:
View attachment Cello Repetitions.mp3


And this is SM:
View attachment Cello Repetitions SM.mp3


I hope @Giorgio Tommasini or any other of the lovely devs at SM see this... And also hope they know how to address it. I hate having to use VSL !


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## DANIELE (Mar 29, 2022)

Bollen said:


> Actually, I still find myself having to reach for VSL especially for ostinatos. They are particularly bad when using the Poly KS or double stops:
> 
> This is VSL
> View attachment Violin Repetitions.mp3
> ...


Did you tried to put the velocity up to 127 and playing with CC38 here?

Did you used CC27 too?

I did a very quick try and I was able to get a better result. It is not very musical, I should do some better shaping but the ostinato sound is very sharp here and I could get a sharper sound but I was in a hurry.


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## DANIELE (Mar 29, 2022)

I did a very "ostinato based" track, I'll post it as soon as I can here to let you listen to the sound. There is also a little lush part in it.


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## Bollen (Mar 29, 2022)

DANIELE said:


> Did you tried to put the velocity up to 127 and playing with CC38 here?
> 
> Did you used CC27 too?
> 
> I did a very quick try and I was able to get a better result. It is not very musical, I should do some better shaping but the ostinato sound is very sharp here and I could get a sharper sound but I was in a hurry.


Yep, all of them! Including CC11, CC22, CC38 and velocity variations...


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## DANIELE (Mar 29, 2022)

Bollen said:


> Yep, all of them! Including CC11, CC22, CC38 and velocity variations...


Did you listened to my very raw audio? Maybe try to reinstall the instrument from scratch. Send me the midi and tomorrow I'll try to reproduce it better.


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## Bollen (Mar 29, 2022)

DANIELE said:


> Did you listened to my very raw audio? Maybe try to reinstall the instrument from scratch. Send me the midi and tomorrow I'll try to reproduce it better.


Yes of course I did, to me it does not sound much more different. As fas as I can tell you seemed to use less CC38 than me, I quickly alternated between 0 and 127, perhaps this is too much and I should stick to just "marcato" or "spiccato". Nevertheless, the double stops are horrendous!


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## muziksculp (Mar 29, 2022)

Bollen said:


> It happens automatically when you either hold the notes for a long time, or you trigger another note without overlapping. In the former it's unrealistically long:
> 
> This is the real one:
> View attachment Rebow Real.mp3
> ...


Thanks, Yeah.. that surely was a 10 meter bow used in SM version.


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## leon chevalier (Mar 29, 2022)

A lot of great knowledge has been given in this thread lately. Thanks to @Fa, @Boland and all the contributors. And thanks to @muziksculp for starting and pushing this thread!

I'm thinking of making a video focusing on Attack but lack of time... I will try !


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## DANIELE (Mar 29, 2022)

Bollen said:


> Yes of course I did, to me it does not sound much more different. As fas as I can tell you seemed to use less CC38 than me, I quickly alternated between 0 and 127, perhaps this is too much and I should stick to just "marcato" or "spiccato". Nevertheless, the double stops are horrendous!


Now I'm at work but if I remember correctly I used CC38 almost at maximum (all spiccato). If you alternated CC38 between 127 and 0 you will end with an horrible mix of spiccato and marcato.

My example is quantized and flat (I didn't work on dynamics) and all the velocities are at 127. I can do a lot better than that, send me the midi files and I'll try to do my best.
I had the distance knob at 50% and the sound is wet and maybe too soft. I'll try to do a better example after work.


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## DJiLAND (Mar 30, 2022)

Today I play the Samplemodeling Strings a little. Yes I need more practice and time, but it's very good.
I put this on the MIR syncron stage.

Here is a blending test with Sy Strings.
Sy Strings adds a sense of space and liveliness to SM Strings.
(For SM Strings, I only used Violins 1 and 2, I liked VSL's Shorts more in this music.)

View attachment __CorelliaChase_Str_BlendMute_20220330.mp3

Samplemodeling S& ES Vln 1,2 Only


View attachment __CorelliaChase_Str_20220330.mp3

Synchron Strings 1&Pro Full Vln 1,2 blended with Samplemodeling S& ES Vln 1,2.


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## Cristian Labelli (Mar 30, 2022)

@DJiLAND 
excerpt from "John Powell - Corellia Chase", what a piece!  
I love this track, I've been wanting to do a full mock-up for a long time, great choice to test the instruments!


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## DJiLAND (Mar 30, 2022)

Cristian Labelli said:


> @DJiLAND
> excerpt from "John Powell - Corellia Chase", what a piece!
> I love this track, I've been wanting to do a full mock-up for a long time, great choice to test the instruments!


I really love what he did in the SOLO movie.
In my opinion, SM S&ES is one of the few string libraries that can handle the last phrase part of this mockup well.
I could do better than this with a little more time.
(To be honest, my works is not good yet. I was simply trying to see the possibilities.)
But now my schedule has been delayed... 😂
I enjoy making and testing mockups of my favorite songs with new instruments, but now is the time to do my job..(but i'm still playing🤣)


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## Bollen (Mar 30, 2022)

DANIELE said:


> Now I'm at work but if I remember correctly I used CC38 almost at maximum (all spiccato). If you alternated CC38 between 127 and 0 you will end with an horrible mix of spiccato and marcato.
> 
> My example is quantized and flat (I didn't work on dynamics) and all the velocities are at 127. I can do a lot better than that, send me the midi files and I'll try to do my best.
> I had the distance knob at 50% and the sound is wet and maybe too soft. I'll try to do a better example after work.


OK, here's the MIDI, I've worked on it a bit more. In this audio version I used every combination possible between marcato, regular and sustain. It sounds better, but still far from VSL's. It's also excruciating editing work, considering VSL does it automatically....
View attachment SM Cello Reps.mp3


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## muziksculp (Mar 30, 2022)

DJiLAND said:


> Today I play the Samplemodeling Strings a little. Yes I need more practice and time, but it's very good.
> I put this on the MIR syncron stage.
> 
> Here is a blending test with Sy Strings.
> ...


@DJiLAND ,

Thanks for sharing this. What are you using for the basses, and lower strings in the first clip, is that all S & ES ? 

I like the blend of Synchron Strings with SM S & ES. I'm guessing you used both the SM Solo vln and Ens. Vlns. Layered to get a more detailed sound.


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## DANIELE (Mar 30, 2022)

Bollen said:


> OK, here's the MIDI, I've worked on it a bit more. In this audio version I used every combination possible between marcato, regular and sustain. It sounds better, but still far from VSL's. It's also excruciating editing work, considering VSL does it automatically....
> View attachment SM Cello Reps.mp3


Actually I played it in my template without editing it and it doesn't sound bad at all (for me). Then I did a little editing here and there (but a very little one) because I tried to not going too far from your intention.

The VSL example seems wet so I leaved my space plugins on. Here is what I get.

I think the first example is the one that requires more work to sound right.

EDIT

Sorry maybe the volume is still to low, I keep it low in the template, let me know if I should turn it up.


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## DANIELE (Mar 30, 2022)

Here's a better version (less wet).


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## Bollen (Mar 30, 2022)

DANIELE said:


> Here's a better version (less wet).


Thank you lovely Daniele, I really appreciate your efforts! Admittedly there's some improvement in your version, albeit minor. It still doesn't sound like the real thing and I can hear that machine gun effect throughout. Mind sending me your edit to see what you did?

I'll try recording it with my real cello tomorrow to compare....


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## I like music (Mar 30, 2022)

DJiLAND said:


> Today I play the Samplemodeling Strings a little. Yes I need more practice and time, but it's very good.
> I put this on the MIR syncron stage.
> 
> Here is a blending test with Sy Strings.
> ...


Just so I have this right. The first example is SM strings only? I like the space here and the tone is much nicer than mine. 

May I ask what internal settings you used (distance etc?). Is the hall/reverb a part of the vsl stuff you get?


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## DJiLAND (Mar 30, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> @DJiLAND ,
> 
> Thanks for sharing this. What are you using for the basses, and lower strings in the first clip, is that all S & ES ?
> 
> I like the blend of Synchron Strings with SM S & ES. I'm guessing you used both the SM Solo vln and Ens. Vlns. Layered to get a more detailed sound.



Vla, Vc, and Db in this mockup are all Sy Elite Strings.
(Because it is Divisi)
I didn't use S&ES on these Shorts because I thought VSL (or a typical sample recording library) could do it easier and faster than S&ES does.
Of course, there seems to be some types of staccato that S&ES can do better.
It seems that what I need depends on the playing style I need.

Also, I didn't use Solo blending and only used Ens.
It bothers me too much.😂
But you are right. I'm sure get better results with this by blending Solo.
It would make the hazy vibrato distinct in the ensemble and could put more emotion into it.
Although not in this mockup, I usually blend Molto vibrato solos in high register violin ensembles.
It sounds like John Williams. 🥰




I like music said:


> Just so I have this right. The first example is SM strings only? I like the space here and the tone is much nicer than mine.
> 
> May I ask what internal settings you used (distance etc?). Is the hall/reverb a part of the vsl stuff you get?



Yes, Except Vla and Vc, Db. but Vln 1,2 is only S&ES.
I just put it in the MIR Pro's Synchron Stage IR with both its ER and Distance set to minimum.
And to make it a little softer, I controlled the high-frequency resonance through Soothe2.
And I add a little Bricasti M7.


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## muziksculp (Mar 30, 2022)

DJiLAND said:


> Vla, Vc, and Db in this mockup are all Sy Elite Strings.
> (Because it is Divisi)
> I didn't use S&ES on these Shorts because I thought VSL (or a typical sample recording library) could do it easier and faster than S&ES does.
> Of course, there seems to be some types of staccato that S&ES can do better.
> ...


Thanks for the helpful feedback @DJiLAND . 

Regarding Sync. Elite Strings short articulations used as Divisi, so you are using multiple instances of the vla, Vc, Db to build the divisi sections ? I just wanted to make sure I understand what you did here. 

I have a long way to go as far as experimenting with layering SM Strings with other libraries. But my main focus is trying to use it without layering with other libraries to see how flexible, and capable this library is. Given it has Solo, Chamber, and Ensemble options. There is quite a bit to work with already.


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## DJiLAND (Mar 30, 2022)

View attachment S&ES SoloVC.mp3


I've tried too.😁


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## DANIELE (Mar 31, 2022)

Bollen said:


> Thank you lovely Daniele, I really appreciate your efforts! Admittedly there's some improvement in your version, albeit minor. It still doesn't sound like the real thing and I can hear that machine gun effect throughout. Mind sending me your edit to see what you did?
> 
> I'll try recording it with my real cello tomorrow to compare....


Sure, I'll send it to you after work. If you send me the real Cello reference I could try to do a better job. What exactly doesn't convince you in my audio file?


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## DANIELE (Mar 31, 2022)

Here you are.


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## DJiLAND (Mar 31, 2022)

View attachment Ophilla.mp3

Full Mix

View attachment Ophilla_S&ES.mp3

S&ES Only

Today I did my second practice with a mockup of Octopath Traveler. 😁
This time, I tested the ensemble medium size.
I put the S&ES in the MIR Pro and this time I didn't blend any other strings libraries. S&ES only!


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## DJiLAND (Mar 31, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Thanks for the helpful feedback @DJiLAND .
> 
> Regarding Sync. Elite Strings short articulations used as Divisi, so you are using multiple instances of the vla, Vc, Db to build the divisi sections ? I just wanted to make sure I understand what you did here.
> 
> I have a long way to go as far as experimenting with layering SM Strings with other libraries. But my main focus is trying to use it without layering with other libraries to see how flexible, and capable this library is. Given it has Solo, Chamber, and Ensemble options. There is quite a bit to work with already.


Vla, Vc, Db are all separate tracks. 
However, I stacked two notes on one MIDI track. 
And I copied the notes of divisi 1 Line to divisi 2. 
I was too rough.


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## muziksculp (Mar 31, 2022)

DJiLAND said:


> Vla, Vc, Db are all separate tracks.
> However, I stacked two notes on one MIDI track.
> And I copied the notes of divisi 1 Line to divisi 2.
> I was too rough.


I see. Thanks for the feedback. VSL Synchron Elite Strings is wonderful sounding strings library.


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## muziksculp (Mar 31, 2022)

DJiLAND said:


> View attachment Ophilla.mp3
> 
> Full Mix
> 
> ...


S&ES sound wonderful. Thanks for sharing. 

I'm using MIR Pro to position them as well, Teledex Stage (Wide) , are you using the Synchron Stage in this demo, or .... ?


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## DJiLAND (Mar 31, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> S&ES sound wonderful. Thanks for sharing.
> 
> I'm using MIR Pro to position them as well, Teledex Stage (Wide) , are you using the Synchron Stage in this demo, or .... ?


Synchron Stage Wide. It is the only roompack I have


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## Bollen (Mar 31, 2022)

OK, so it's a lot harder to play than I thought. Here's a comparison between all three and a possible workaround:

This a badly played version by myself followed up by my flatmate who's a violinist.
View attachment Cello Reps Real.mp3


This one is lovely Daniele's, I changed it to Cello 6 just to get a closer body sound to the others.
View attachment Cello Reps SM.mp3


Here's VSL once again:
View attachment Cello Reps VSL.mp3


And finally a possible workaround, I separated both voices into two instances of SM, seems to work better:
View attachment Cello Reps SM 2 Instances.mp3


Personally I think the last one gets pretty close, but I still can't SM to have that lovely aggressive, yet slow attack from VSL.

Thoughts?


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## DANIELE (Mar 31, 2022)

Bollen said:


> OK, so it's a lot harder to play than I thought. Here's a comparison between all three and a possible workaround:
> 
> This a badly played version by myself followed up by my flatmate who's a violinist.
> View attachment Cello Reps Real.mp3
> ...


Now I understand better what you are talking about.

Today after work I'll try to do some other things.

I think there is to much bite in the SM version, maybe I can solve this working a bit more on the dynamics and velocity.


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## DJiLAND (Mar 31, 2022)

I have a question about ensemble sizes.
Is this simply divided into 3 steps?
It seems to me that it is continuously increasing, but I am not sure.
On the violins, I've heard it's up to 20 or little more players.
If so, is it the same for other instruments? 20 Vla, 20 Vc, and 20 Db...?!
Since it's not a real ensemble recording, I'd like to know the approximate value, even if it's not something to know exactly...
How many performers are small, medium, and large each?


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## Bollen (Apr 1, 2022)

DANIELE said:


> Now I understand better what you are talking about.
> 
> Today after work I'll try to do some other things.
> 
> I think there is to much bite in the SM version, maybe I can solve this working a bit more on the dynamics and velocity.


Yeah, it's the bite, isn't it? It's like a very mechanical click at the start of the note that's exactly the same every time. I think that might be what makes it sound so machine-gun-like.


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## DANIELE (Apr 1, 2022)

Bollen said:


> Yeah, it's the bite, isn't it? It's like a very mechanical click at the start of the note that's exactly the same every time. I think that might be what makes it sound so machine-gun-like.


Yeah sort of! I think you are looking for some sort of sforzando effect, I must think how to get it, if it is possible.


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## Fa (Apr 4, 2022)

JUST IN CASE YOU ARE INTERESTED IN ENHANCED AUTOMATION TO IMPROVE AND SPEED-UP PROGRAMMING:

- as I mentioned in some of my posts, using the SM Strings as building blocks for hyper-realistic strings scoring is a process involving proper use of controllers, and it can be dramatically simplified and made quick by clever automation of some parameters (e.g. modulators and PB).

- some DAW have internal powerful and flexible MIDI processors for automation, modulation and humanization of parameters (e.g. Logic best in class, Cubase quite good etc.), but other have not. 

I will share with the community in the future some ideas and some interesting results I got with a 3rd party product that fills the gap, working with whatever DAW has a VST/VST3 MIDI routing, enabling things that are possible in Logic/Cubase and even more and better:

Meldaproduction MCCgenerator

At the time I'm writing, the extended features of the "free plugin bundle" requested for the application I suggest, can be unlocked on sales for 24€, and it includes the whole set of nice plugins, not just the one I mention. I recommend it being a quite nice, inexpensive and powerful collection of audio and midi swiss-army-knives.

I just want let you know that in advance due to sales, but I will come back on the topic later to let you get why I was posting here about it.


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## DANIELE (Apr 4, 2022)

Fa said:


> JUST IN CASE YOU ARE INTERESTED IN ENHANCED AUTOMATION TO IMPROVE AND SPEED-UP PROGRAMMING:
> 
> - as I mentioned in some of my posts, using the SM Strings as building blocks for hyper-realistic strings scoring is a process involving proper use of controllers, and it can be dramatically simplified and made quick by clever automation of some parameters (e.g. modulators and PB).
> 
> ...


I think I already have that plugin, anyway Reaper has good modulation abilities so I think I could stick with them. I'm already using some of them for workflow purposes.


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## muziksculp (Apr 4, 2022)

Hi @Fa ,

Thanks for the post above, and your contribution to this thread. 

I'm interested in knowing how you use MIDI-CC Generation Plugin from Meldaproductions 'MCCGenerator' with SM Strings, and what it helps you accomplish musically.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## DJiLAND (Apr 5, 2022)

I test the MIR Pro and SM S&ES, and I'm under the impression that flipping an instance of this in the MIR Pro is something nice.
Directing the instrument forward in the normal way is sharp and distinct, but pointing it backwards feels softer and fuller.
When I turn the instance of the MIR Pro back, the reverb moves to the pan opposite the instance, which I guess gives it a richer feel.
(For example, if the instance is to the left, the reverb will go a little further to the right than it would normally.)
The S&ES sounds a little more direct and dry, so having the instances facing back feels better to my taste.
It seems like this could be decided by the style of music and personal taste.







Here are two examples with a simple mockup of Hedwig's Theme.

View attachment __S&ES MIR Test_Front.mp3

Normal

View attachment __S&ES MIR Test_turn.mp3

Turned


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## JimDiGritz (Apr 10, 2022)

Fa said:


> JUST IN CASE YOU ARE INTERESTED IN ENHANCED AUTOMATION TO IMPROVE AND SPEED-UP PROGRAMMING:
> 
> - as I mentioned in some of my posts, using the SM Strings as building blocks for hyper-realistic strings scoring is a process involving proper use of controllers, and it can be dramatically simplified and made quick by clever automation of some parameters (e.g. modulators and PB).
> 
> ...


Would love to see/hear your thoughts on simplifying the SM controllers - whilst I completely appreciate the artistry and dedication of those using Leap Motions and Breath controllers, I'd love to get my simple keyboard and 3xCC fader setup optimised for this!!


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## Vardaro (Apr 10, 2022)

DJiLAND said:


> Directing the instrument forward in the normal way is sharp and distinct, but pointing it backwards feels softer and fuller.
> When I turn the instance of the MIR Pro back, the reverb moves to the pan opposite the instance, which I guess gives it a richer feel.


Indeed.
But the "back-facing" instance gives me a less clear "picture" and a less stable timbre.
But then that's what I usually hear if I close my eyes in a real concert venue....


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## Fa (Apr 11, 2022)

DJiLAND said:


> I test the MIR Pro and SM S&ES, and I'm under the impression that flipping an instance of this in the MIR Pro is something nice.
> Directing the instrument forward in the normal way is sharp and distinct, but pointing it backwards feels softer and fuller.
> When I turn the instance of the MIR Pro back, the reverb moves to the pan opposite the instance, which I guess gives it a richer feel.
> (For example, if the instance is to the left, the reverb will go a little further to the right than it would normally.)
> ...


the approach is also recommended by VSL product experts (e.g. by Dietz) and is very effective. In parallel you should play with air attenuation and directivity filter parameters, and the wet control: a very realistic ambience (giving the impression of being in the room with the musicians on stage) is coming from full exploit of MIR ambience (then with very high wet mix) but a more sharp focused and "production style" sound is coming from the residual amount of direct sound you get keeping the wet lower... so it really depends on the will of the producer to take the sweet-spot for the sound you are looking for. 

There is no problem with the stereo angle, if you use the SM Strings sections, because to reverse the position of the players is not critical, and the original recording is anechoic.


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## Fa (Apr 11, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> Would love to see/hear your thoughts on simplifying the SM controllers - whilst I completely appreciate the artistry and dedication of those using Leap Motions and Breath controllers, I'd love to get my simple keyboard and 3xCC fader setup optimised for this!!


I had the nice experience of getting very effective control of the sound using just my Korg XY Pad (cc11 +cc1) or ROLI XYZ pad (cc11 +cc1 +cc19) and the piano keyboard. To improve the sound, some automation that links the behaviour of some parameters to the set you control (then to expression, vibrato and velocity) and some (context dependent anyway, according the musical content) small randomization (e.g. of pitch bend or attack etc.) as you mention can help to have some realism and fun with almost no additional effort.

Let's share ideas and examples here soon (I will for sure in the next weeks).


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## Bollen (Apr 11, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> Would love to see/hear your thoughts on simplifying the SM controllers


Aside from the previous posts about RR, I would appreciate if the folks at SampleModeling would at least put all basic controllers on the same page e.g. page 1 and 2. That script is as old as me... @Giorgio Tommasini


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## ModalRealist (Apr 12, 2022)




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## Windbag (Apr 12, 2022)

ModalRealist said:


>


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## doctoremmet (Apr 12, 2022)




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## echo7 (Apr 16, 2022)

What do you guys think of this mix? Open to criticism or tips to improve realism further, especially with the mix and placement. How many players does this "sound" like and in what sort of room? Nothing fancy other than expression, vib, pitchbend here. I still need to look into the playing positions and how to utilize that.


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## muziksculp (Apr 16, 2022)

echo7 said:


> What do you guys think of this mix? Open to criticism or tips to improve realism further, especially with the mix and placement. How many players does this "sound" like and in what sort of room? Nothing fancy other than expression, vib, pitchbend here. I still need to look into the playing positions and how to utilize that.


Hi @echo7 ,

This sounds like a small string ensemble playing. I like the realism, and tone, also the placement of the sections. Nothing negative I can point to. Well done. and Thanks for sharing.

So, which sections did you use here ? I'm guessing the chamber ensembles, and maybe some layering with the solo.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## echo7 (Apr 16, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @echo7 ,
> 
> This sounds like a small string ensemble playing. I like the realism, and tone, also the placement of the sections. Nothing negative I can point to. Well done. and Thanks for sharing.
> 
> ...


Hi @muziksculp ,

Thank you! Yes I was aiming for a small chamber strings sound. And you are right, it's just 8 patches total, 4 chamber ens, and 4 solo of the same instruments. For solo I used pitchbend to make my own vibrato, for the chamber patches I used cc1. Different cc info / "performances" for all parts. I didn't utilize the virtual sound stage in the instrument and instead used my own reverb / positioning.

Best,

-B


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## muziksculp (Apr 16, 2022)

echo7 said:


> Hi @muziksculp ,
> 
> Thank you! Yes I was aiming for a small chamber strings sound. And you are right, it's just 8 patches total, 4 chamber ens, and 4 solo of the same instruments. For solo I used pitchbend to make my own vibrato, for the chamber patches I used cc1. Different cc info / "performances" for all parts. I didn't utilize the virtual sound stage in the instrument and instead used my own reverb / positioning.
> 
> ...


Hi @echo7 ,

Great. Thanks for the feedback. 

I'm using VSL MIR-Pro for positioning, but just purchased Earverb 2 recently, I plan to test it with these strings. Do you use one of these tools for the positioning ?

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## echo7 (Apr 16, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @echo7 ,
> 
> Great. Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> ...


Cool I'm sure either of those can do the placement nicely. I'm using a combo of precedence, breeze, and Fabfilter Pro-R actually.


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## muziksculp (Apr 16, 2022)

echo7 said:


> Cool I'm sure either of those can do the placement nicely. I'm using a combo of precedence, breeze, and Fabfilter Pro-R actually.


Thanks for the additional feedback.


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## justthere (Apr 17, 2022)

For the MIR users - I’ve demo’d it before, and it sounds very nice. My main complaint is the added latency - not sure if it’s the architecture or what. Of course if you move something further away there will be delay, but I’m talking about buffering latency in particular. How do you folks work with it in real-time?


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## muziksculp (Apr 17, 2022)

justthere said:


> For the MIR users - I’ve demo’d it before, and it sounds very nice. My main complaint is the added latency - not sure if it’s the architecture or what. Of course if you move something further away there will be delay, but I’m talking about buffering latency in particular. How do you folks work with it in real-time?


My DAW is Studio One Pro 5 / Windows 10. I don't notice a latency that distracts me when playing the SM Instruments in real time, when I have them in MIR-Pro. My RAM Buffer is set to 512 Samples. 

I should also add that I'm very happy with the results I'm getting with MIR-Pro, and SM Strings, I have SM Strings placed in the Teledex Studio Wide Venue.


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## justthere (Apr 17, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> My DAW is Studio One Pro 5 / Windows 10. I don't notice a latency that distracts me when playing the SM Instruments in real time, when I have them in MIR-Pro. My RAM Buffer is set to 512 Samples.
> 
> I should also add that I'm very happy with the results I'm getting with MIR-Pro, and SM Strings, I have SM Strings placed in the Teledex Studio Wide Venue.


What buffer multiplier do you use? And what CPU/interface? I’ve been bothered at 512 in all of the daws I use, but Studio One is a special case with its dual buffering. Makes me wonder how it handles the round trip for some instruments going through it on playback and one in the smaller record buffer.


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## muziksculp (Apr 17, 2022)

justthere said:


> What buffer multiplier do you use? And what CPU/interface? I’ve been bothered at 512 in all of the daws I use, but Studio One is a special case with its dual buffering. Makes me wonder how it handles the round trip for some instruments going through it on playback and one in the smaller record buffer.


Here are pics of my settings. My Audio Interface is the RME UFX+ USB. (MadiFace).


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## echo7 (Apr 17, 2022)

Here's another demo, this is of Max Richter's On the Nature of Daylight. Wanted to test out the level of expression with these strings. Quite thrilled with the result...although it needs a lot of cc tweaking. This is the work in progress. Bow noise might be too loud haha.


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## John Longley (Apr 17, 2022)

echo7 said:


> Here's another demo, this is of Max Richter's On the Nature of Daylight. Wanted to test out the level of expression with these strings. Quite thrilled with the result...although it needs a lot of cc tweaking. This is the work in progress. Bow noise might be too loud haha.


Sounds gorgeous. Thanks for sharing.


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## muziksculp (Apr 17, 2022)

echo7 said:


> Here's another demo, this is of Max Richter's On the Nature of Daylight. Wanted to test out the level of expression with these strings. Quite thrilled with the result...although it needs a lot of cc tweaking. This is the work in progress. Bow noise might be too loud haha.


Hi @echo7 

This sounds beautiful. Being a big fan of Max Richter's music I really like what you have been able to do with SM Strings. Lots of detail, and tender sounding strings here. Not something that's easy to do with other Strings libraries. You got those CCs singing very expressively.  

Actually, this demo could easily fool some people that it is not using samples, but a real performance by a chamber/small string section. 

Thanks for sharing.


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## echo7 (Apr 17, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @echo7
> 
> This sounds beautiful. Being a big fan of Max Richter's music I really like what you have been able to do with SM Strings. Lots of detail, and tender sounding strings here. Not something that's easy to do with other Strings libraries. You got those CCs singing very expressively.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for the compliment! This one is fun to work on, I haven't done much with these strings yet, but really they are incredible in that they seem to be able to play anything. They are also more fun to program since you can get such good results. They don't take THAT long to program either, at least how I am doing it...still have a lot of other parameters to mess with.


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## justthere (Apr 17, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Here are pics of my settings. My Audio Interface is the RME UFX+ USB. (MadiFace).


Thanks for this! Can you tell me why it says N/A for instrument monitoring? And if latency is around zero, there’s some wiggle room there. Does that mean the low latency buffer for a record track is around 64 samples or less, and if so does it change depending upon the instrument used?


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## muziksculp (Apr 18, 2022)

justthere said:


> Thanks for this! Can you tell me why it says N/A for instrument monitoring? And if latency is around zero, there’s some wiggle room there. Does that mean the low latency buffer for a record track is around 64 samples or less, and if so does it change depending upon the instrument used?


@justthere ,

Do you use Studio One Pro 5 ?

You can set the dropout protection to maximum, which I only use if I want to have very low latency for tracking acoustic instruments, but CPU takes a hit, I don't use is when using virtual instruments, I have it set to minimum dropout protection when using Virtual Instruments. (Shown via the *Blue Z *icon)

Here is the latency dropout protection values when it is set to maximum, which allows to work in a very low latency setting, shown via the *Green Z* icons. When it is not in this mode, the Z icons show up in blue.


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## BasariStudios (Apr 18, 2022)

Bollen said:


> Here's VSL once again:
> View attachment Cello Reps VSL.mp3
> 
> 
> ...


Which VSL is this and what Articulation? How did you achieve this?


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## Maarten (Apr 18, 2022)

echo7 said:


> Here's another demo, this is of Max Richter's On the Nature of Daylight. Wanted to test out the level of expression with these strings. Quite thrilled with the result...although it needs a lot of cc tweaking. This is the work in progress. Bow noise might be too loud haha.


Really beautiful! 
In another post you wrote about vibrato by pitch bend. Do you draw that in, or do you use a controler?


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## Bollen (Apr 18, 2022)

BasariStudios said:


> Which VSL is this and what Articulation? How did you achieve this?


VSL Solo cello, VI version. I think the patches SFZ for the the attacks and rep for the rest.


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## echo7 (Apr 18, 2022)

Maarten said:


> Really beautiful!
> In another post you wrote about vibrato by pitch bend. Do you draw that in, or do you use a controler?


Thank you! Yeah I use a controller, drawing in would take quite a while. I find pitchbend "virtual vibrato" yields more expressive results (and is more fun to play in) as seen in some of the videos by @Cristian Labelli and some of the midi files he's provided.


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## muziksculp (Apr 18, 2022)

Hi @echo7 ,

Did you turn off all the Kontakt instrument reverbs for the 'Nature of Daylight' demo you posted ? 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## echo7 (Apr 18, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @echo7 ,
> 
> Did you turn off all the Kontakt instrument reverbs for the 'Nature of Daylight' demo you posted ?
> 
> ...


Actually I did not. Overlooked that. I turned off all the virtual sound stage stuff though. Now I gotta compare with those reverb settings off 

-B


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## echo7 (Apr 18, 2022)

Here's the same thing I posted but without the Kontakt Reverb in there. To me this sounds bascially same, I can't really tell the difference until the solo vln comes in. I think I prefer the slight reverb actually I believe it was just the default values.


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## echo7 (Apr 18, 2022)

After listening again, I suppose the reverboff version does sound a bit closer up. Which do you prefer?


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## muziksculp (Apr 18, 2022)

echo7 said:


> After listening again, I suppose the reverboff version does sound a bit closer up. Which do you prefer?


Hi @echo7 ,

Both versions sound wonderful. But to my ears the first version with a bit of reverb sounds more natural, and everything blends into the same space better. So, I like it a bit more than the all reverb-off version. 

I'm guessing you used the chamber versions, and solos. Is the DBass a solo or chamber ? I like the way it sounds. very subtle, but drives the piece nicely forward. 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## echo7 (Apr 18, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @echo7 ,
> 
> Both versions sound wonderful. But to my ears the first version with a bit of reverb sounds more natural, and everything blends into the same space better. So, I like it a bit more than the all reverb-off version.
> 
> ...


Hi this is actually a quintet, all solos. The reverb treatment might make it sound a bit thicker and the fact that it is also relatively "close" sounding. I'm gonna work on finishing it up and refining some of the dynamics, but will post here when it's finished!


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## muziksculp (Apr 18, 2022)

echo7 said:


> Hi this is actually a quintet, all solos. The reverb treatment might make it sound a bit thicker and the fact that it is also relatively "close" sounding. I'm gonna work on finishing it up and refining some of the dynamics, but will post here when it's finished!


Oh. I see, that's very interesting. I thought you used some chamber strings in this track, this shows you how tricky strings can be to analyze, I think adding a small amount of the built-in reverb enhances the solo instruments, I noticed that when working with the solos, but you have to be careful not to go overboard. 

Thanks for sharing your track, and experience with this library. I look forward to hear how it will sound with more refinements to the dynamics. 

By the way, this thread is also a place to post any tips you might like to share about using this library. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## echo7 (Apr 18, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Oh. I see, that's very interesting. I thought you used some chamber strings in this track, this shows you how tricky strings can be to analyze, I think adding a small amount of the built-in reverb enhances the solo instruments, I noticed that when working with the solos, but you have to be careful not to go overboard.
> 
> Thanks for sharing your track, and experience with this library. I look forward to hear how it will sound with more refinements to the dynamics.
> 
> ...


Totally! I'm still learning, but I agree. So far with the processing I have, (which is all basic...nothing complicated) the addition of their reverb adds something nice. In terms of programming tips, I'm really just using a few controllers (mentioned in a previous post), nothing complicated. TEC BBC2 is great even if it makes you look like a fool haha. When I get into the playing positioning and other parameters I will share what I find!

Honestly the midi that was posted earlier in this thread by the SM guys was really helpful. Highly recommend checking those out! That's what I used to understand more about how they make such good demos. So I'm essentially using techniques from their midi files. The main thing is to make sure something is always changing in a dynamic way.

-B


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## Windbag (Apr 19, 2022)

I hear the difference immediately and prefer the dry one, which is unusual for me...sorta take that to mean the kontakt IR wasn't particularly flattering these.

Without having had my hands on this set, your dynamic change observation rings very true with respect to other modeled instruments I use; leaving things static sounds robotic and strange. A handful of CCs, creative use of multi-dimensional input devices, and a fair bit of practice go a long way toward breathing life into models that aren't giving you quite as much "for free" as you get from recordings of seasoned players doing all that stuff naturally. The BBC2 is especially interesting with strings as I continually find myself running out of air

At any rate, very nice work; that pass at Richter is some of my favorite implementation of these solo patches yet. I particularly like the slower vibrato [which I see now that you performed in, explaining a lot]. Tasty.

EDIT: listening again, I'm curious if the solo instruments have any up/down bow differentiation....or is it just bow change?


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## Bollen (Apr 20, 2022)

Windbag said:


> I'm curious if the solo instruments have any up/down bow differentiation....or is it just bow change?


It's automatic unfortunately, you have no control which one you want to trigger.


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## BasariStudios (Apr 20, 2022)

I own probably most of the Strings Libraries in existence. Yesterday i go the SM Strings. So far i have NOT heard anything better than SM at least for what i need. There is NO other Strings as Agile as this.


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## muziksculp (Apr 20, 2022)

BasariStudios said:


> I own probably most of the Strings Libraries in existence. Yesterday i go the SM Strings. So far i have NOT heard anything better than SM at least for what i need. There is NO other Strings as Agile as this.


Congratulations ! 

Do you also have the Audio Modeling SWAM Solo Strings ? if not, I would highly recommend them as well.


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## robgb (Apr 20, 2022)

BasariStudios said:


> I own probably most of the Strings Libraries in existence. Yesterday i go the SM Strings. So far i have NOT heard anything better than SM at least for what i need. There is NO other Strings as Agile as this.


Welcome to the dark side.


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## echo7 (Apr 20, 2022)

Windbag said:


> I hear the difference immediately and prefer the dry one, which is unusual for me...sorta take that to mean the kontakt IR wasn't particularly flattering these.
> 
> Without having had my hands on this set, your dynamic change observation rings very true with respect to other modeled instruments I use; leaving things static sounds robotic and strange. A handful of CCs, creative use of multi-dimensional input devices, and a fair bit of practice go a long way toward breathing life into models that aren't giving you quite as much "for free" as you get from recordings of seasoned players doing all that stuff naturally. The BBC2 is especially interesting with strings as I continually find myself running out of air
> 
> ...


Thank you! Yeah so to deal with that I usually just use a line tool or draw in the data to connect the points where it drops out. Usually that's all that's needed which only takes 30 sec after each part. Just seems easier to control for me using that rather than a fader.


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## echo7 (Apr 20, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Congratulations !
> 
> Do you also have the Audio Modeling SWAM Solo Strings ? if not, I would highly recommend them as well.


To me those don't sound as good, but haven't checked them out in detail really.


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## BasariStudios (Apr 20, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Congratulations !
> 
> Do you also have the Audio Modeling SWAM Solo Strings ? if not, I would highly recommend them as well.


Thanks, not yet but i've also heard great things about them.


robgb said:


> Welcome to the dark side.


Hahaha thanks.

Here is a Topic i opened about the SM Strings:





Are these the Best Solo Strings?


Its a short Passage i did one hour after acquiring them. The sound of the Cello and Violin is heavily modified by me, especially the OverTones and the Bow. For what i need these Strings for i still have not heard anything better on this Planet. The Agility of the Portamento where i need 5 Notes...



vi-control.net


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## echo7 (Apr 20, 2022)

Does anyone have or know where to get good quality room tone? Preferably in a chamber sized string room or something similar.


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## BasariStudios (Apr 20, 2022)

echo7 said:


> Does anyone have or know where to get good quality room tone? Preferably in a chamber sized string room or something similar.


I have yet to play with the DRY Ensembles and add them my own Rooms.


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## CT (Apr 20, 2022)

echo7 said:


> Does anyone have or know where to get good quality room tone? Preferably in a chamber sized string room or something similar.


It's a bit of a slog, but you could create your own patched together from dead air at the beginning and end of classical recordings. I've acquired some seriously rare room tone with this method!


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## muziksculp (Apr 20, 2022)

echo7 said:


> Yeah so to deal with that I usually just use a line tool or draw in the data to connect the points where it drops out. Usually that's all that's needed which only takes 30 sec after each part. Just seems easier to control for me using that rather than a fader.


@echo7 ,

What are you referring to here ?


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## echo7 (Apr 20, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> @echo7 ,
> 
> What are you referring to here ?


The BBC2 controller as in its hard to play in long passages haha


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## muziksculp (Apr 20, 2022)

echo7 said:


> The BBC2 controller as in its hard to play in long passages haha


OH.. I see. I agree, it is hard to play long notes, and passages using it. I tried to find ways to improve this via its application, but wasn't successful. I wish there is a better BC unit that is more sensitive, and requires less forceful blowing to react.

Thanks


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## echo7 (Apr 20, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> OH.. I see. I agree, it is hard to play long notes, and passages using it. I tried to find ways to improve this via its application, but wasn't successful. I wish there is a better BC unit that is more sensitive, and requires less forceful blowing react.
> 
> Thanks


Well I believe you can adjust that in the app that TEC provides.


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## BasariStudios (Apr 20, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> It's a bit of a slog, but you could create your own patched together from dead air at the beginning and end of classical recordings. I've acquired some seriously rare room tone with this method!


You mean cutting it and using it as IR later?


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## muziksculp (Apr 20, 2022)

echo7 said:


> Well I believe you can adjust that in the app that TEC provides.


Yes, I know, to a certain degree, but not enough for my taste/need.


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## echo7 (Apr 20, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Yes, I know, to a certain degree, but not enough for my taste/need.


Really? What do your settings look like? I believe you can really change it drastically if you want.


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## muziksculp (Apr 20, 2022)

echo7 said:


> Really? What do your settings look like? I believe you can really change it drastically if you want.


I will check my settings when I can. meanwhile, what settings seem to work for you to use BBC2 TEC comfortably, without having to put a lot of effort blowing into the mouthpiece ? 

I know it depends on the instrument one is trying to control, and one's lung capacity, but maybe in a general setting perspective. 

Thanks.


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## CT (Apr 20, 2022)

BasariStudios said:


> You mean cutting it and using it as IR later?


Room tone, not IRs.


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## muziksculp (Apr 20, 2022)

@BasariStudios ,

If you have MIR-Pro, you could use its RT feature as an audio track that you can record. It's quite subtle, but does the job.


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## echo7 (Apr 20, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I will check my settings when I can. meanwhile, what settings seem to work for you to use BBC2 TEC comfortably, without having to put a lot of effort blowing into the mouthpiece ?
> 
> I know it depends on the instrument one is trying to control, and one's lung capacity, but maybe in a general setting perspective.
> 
> Thanks.


I believe you just move the "sensor max" parameter as much as you want. I'm not sure of my settings as I saved it to the device. But I know that I had moved it quite a bit. That way it takes less effort to send higher cc messages like 100-127 range.


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## muziksculp (Apr 20, 2022)

echo7 said:


> I believe you just move the "sensor max" parameter as much as you want. I'm not sure of my settings as I saved it to the device. But I know that I had moved it quite a bit. That way it takes less effort to send higher cc messages like 100-127 range.


OK. Thanks. 

I will have to check my setting when I can, and post some feedback about this.


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## anjwilson (Apr 20, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> OH.. I see. I agree, it is hard to play long notes, and passages using it. I tried to find ways to improve this via its application, but wasn't successful. I wish there is a better BC unit that is more sensitive, and requires less forceful blowing to react.
> 
> Thanks


You could close the physical bleed valve on the side of the controller. That drastically lowers the amount of force necessary.


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## muziksculp (Apr 20, 2022)

anjwilson said:


> You could close the physical bleed valve on the side of the controller. That drastically lowers the amount of force necessary.


Thanks. 

I will experiment, with the bleed valve, and other settings, and see how it goes. I'm not able to do that now, I'm busy with other things at the moment. I appreciate the tips, and feedback.


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## echo7 (Apr 21, 2022)

Here is my nearly completed version of Max Richter's On The Nature of Daylight. The last 5% always takes the longest...could edit and change cc data for hours. All S&ENS solo quintet other than a single zebra patch for the added bass that comes in around halfway. Let me know what you all think and/or criticism on the realism.

-B


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## Mojo X (Apr 21, 2022)

Here is an experiment I'm working on. Creating ensembles from the solo patches.


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## muziksculp (Apr 21, 2022)

Mojo X said:


> Here is an experiment I'm working on. Creating ensembles from the solo patches.


Sounds very good. But, why bother creating an ensemble from Solo patches, when they offer both a full ensemble, with variable sizes, and a Chamber ensemble as well ? Do you think using solos to create ensembles produces better, more realistic results ?


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## Ivan Duch (Apr 21, 2022)

Mojo X said:


> Here is an experiment I'm working on. Creating ensembles from the solo patches.


Sounds great. How are you approaching it?


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## Mojo X (Apr 21, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Sounds very good. But, why bother creating an ensemble from Solo patches, when they offer both a full ensemble, with variable sizes, and a Chamber ensemble as well ? Do you think using solos to create ensembles produces better, more realistic results ?


It's an experiment for now. I'm drawn to the way the solo strings respond to the breath controller. I'm waving my arm in the air the way Christian does in the videos. It doesn't seem to work the same on the ensemble patches. The tuning descrepancies also add to the realism. I think I like the way the solo cello sounds, as opposed to the ensemble and chamber versions.


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## Mojo X (Apr 21, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> Sounds great. How are you approaching it?


At the moment it's 6 Vlns, 6 Vlas, 6 Celli, 3 Basses. I'm thinking of adding to it with the SWAM strings and get 2nd Vlns that way.


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## echo7 (Apr 21, 2022)

Mojo X said:


> At the moment it's 6 Vlns, 6 Vlas, 6 Celli, 3 Basses. I'm thinking of adding to it with the SWAM strings and get 2nd Vlns that way.


Does SWAM even sound good to you? Curious to hear how those would sound with the excerpt that you posted. To me they always sound obviously fake...their winds are better.


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## muziksculp (Apr 21, 2022)

I have not tried to experiment using the SM Solo strings to create ensembles, I think I should give it a go.

@echo7 ,

Have you tried experimenting with the SM Solos to create String Ensembles ? 

This is an interesting detail to evaluate, especially given that SM offers ensemble, and chamber sized sections.


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## echo7 (Apr 21, 2022)

Nope, I haven't. But I'd try multiple chamber sections (for divisi) to make an ensemble section instead...depending on how large u want it to be. And you could always add in a few solo for more detail if needed.


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## Vardaro (Apr 22, 2022)

echo7 said:


> Does SWAM even sound good to you? Curious to hear how those would sound with the excerpt that you posted. To me they always sound obviously fake...their winds are better.


Yep. SWAM winds use a small number of samples, while their strings and brass are entirely synthetic.
I find the violin not too bad, but viola and cello are not there..


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## Bollen (Apr 22, 2022)

echo7 said:


> Does anyone have or know where to get good quality room tone? Preferably in a chamber sized string room or something similar.


I have the cinesamples one, but I replaced the sample with an LSO version of Cage's 4'33.


echo7 said:


> their winds are better.


No they aren't, you say that because you're not a woodwind player....


muziksculp said:


> I have not tried to experiment using the SM Solo strings to create ensembles, I think I should give it a go.


You absolutely should! I've done it a couple of times with VSL's Dimension and programming them independently gives you a texture and detail like no other! I wouldn't bother with a fast/medium piece, but on an adagio or other slower pieces it can come alive like you wouldn't believe it!


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## Mojo X (Apr 22, 2022)

Here's the same bit I posted yesterday with SWAM added in. Just an experiment.


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## Windbag (Apr 22, 2022)

Mojo X said:


> Here's the same bit I posted yesterday with SWAM added in.



I've been wondering about this combo, and that sounds pretty damn good to me


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## echo7 (Apr 22, 2022)

Bollen said:


> No they aren't, you say that because you're not a woodwind player....


Well quite possible haha. There are a lack of demos using the SWAM stuff, and from what I've heard the strings just sound different in a fake way. Haven't been convinced yet, if anyone has any good demos that showcase SWAM strings or woodwinds, I'd be curious to know. I want to upgrade woodwinds and haven't found anything yet.



Mojo X said:


> Here's the same bit I posted yesterday with SWAM added in. Just an experiment.


Actually I prefer the previous one. To me sounds more real. What do you guys think when you compare those?


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## muziksculp (Apr 22, 2022)

echo7 said:


> Actually I prefer the previous one. To me sounds more real. What do you guys think when you compare those?


I agree. The first one using on SM strings sounds more real, and has a richer timbre/texture. 

But I still think that the SWAM strings, and woodwinds are very good instruments, and can be quite impressive, I wouldn't ignore them.


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## muziksculp (Apr 22, 2022)

Talking about SWAM Strings, this is one of my favorite SWAM Strings demos, and shows what these instruments can deliver.



Also this demo of SWAM Instruments is impressive


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## echo7 (Apr 22, 2022)

Interesting, yeah those are quite decent demos. More convincing but still not sold on the strings yet. Curious about the woodwinds but still seems to be a lack of content showing them in a scoring context.


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## muziksculp (Apr 22, 2022)

echo7 said:


> Interesting, yeah those are quite decent demos. More convincing but still not sold on the strings yet. Curious about the woodwinds but still seems to be a lack of content showing them in a scoring context.


Audio Modeling is working on SWAM Ensemble Strings, they currently only have solo strings, I'm very curious to hear how their SWAM Ens. Strings sounds, and compares to the current lineups of of traditional libraries, and SM String Ensembles.


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## CT (Apr 22, 2022)

I have not had the chance to use the SM strings hands on, and initially also thought from demos that they seemed more convincing than SWAM, but after actually using the latter I could get results that were quite a bit more satisfying than what I've heard from the former. I'd recommend trying them out....


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## echo7 (Apr 22, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> I have not had the chance to use the SM strings hands on, and initially also thought from demos that they seemed more convincing than SWAM, but after actually using the latter I could get results that were quite a bit more satisfying than what I've heard from the former. I'd recommend trying them out....


Would you mind linking any content you have made with them?


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## CT (Apr 22, 2022)

echo7 said:


> Would you mind linking any content you have made with them?


Sure, I can do that later today.


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## muziksculp (Apr 22, 2022)

@Michaelt ,

So, do you also have the Sample Modeling Strings, but have not used them yet ?


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## CT (Apr 22, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> @Michaelt ,
> 
> So, do you also have the Sample Modeling Strings, but have not used them yet ?


No, I do not have them at all. I was able to try the SWAM demos and eventually purchased them, although I actually just re-sold them to someone I hope will get good use from them as I have other solo strings I ultimately use more.


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## muziksculp (Apr 22, 2022)

Here is an impressive SWAM Solo Violin demo


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## CT (Apr 22, 2022)

Ok here are some bits of the SWAM strings in action that I've culled together. Hope it is useful to hear.


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## Ivan Duch (Apr 22, 2022)

Beautiful stuff @Michaelt. I only own SM strings, I think SWAM can sound more expressive and agile in a way. 

I'm curious, what solo strings did you move to?


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## Bruhelius (Apr 22, 2022)

Mojo X said:


> Here's the same bit I posted yesterday with SWAM added in. Just an experiment.


Sounds quite silky to me!

I've also been experimenting with layering AM solo instruments and SM ens and solo with some other secret sauce. I've built up divisi sections as well, made of individual solo instruments all with their own unique CC mapping (Reaper MIDI Mapper X works wonders).

@Erik has kindly provided the raw MIDI data for the South by Southwest track (not my composition but rather by Stephen Barton), which is supposed to be a "string library killer". Some articulations for the pizz and arco I didn't get quite right, but it won't matter for this purpose.
I am posting the pure Sample Modeling Strings (combination of Ensemble and Solo), and to compare with that, my own experimental setup render using SM, SWAM (plus "x").

I use MIR pro to just position the sections (VI1, VI2, VA, CE and BA).
John Cage 4'33'' underneath and some limiting for the master bus, no compression. I mixed this with headphones, so it might be a bit wet sounding. Reverb optimization is another story. Note that, if I had programmed the midi myself, I probably would have aimed for more realism from the get-go, by modifying the note overlaps and modwheel as I am writing. Here, I was a bit lazy to tweak since this is not my composition.

To my ears, the idea of blending AM and SM leads to ironing out the imperfections we have in each respective platform. I use some Spitfire BBCSO to subtly blend in some "texture", rather than using it as a main sound source.
The type of data to feed into my engine is just a CC1 for dynamics and note-on velocity control.
Reaticulate takes care of switching playing modes for SM, AM and other libs. CC1 data is converted into 10+ other midi data streams via my multiplexed custom mapping scheme, that can be tweaked in post (CC11, CC19, CC99, CCwhathaveyou for bow position, pressure, rosin etc).
My idea is to have something that is immediately playable with minimal user input.

I am eager to hear your feedback! 

Best,

Andrew


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## CT (Apr 22, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> Beautiful stuff @Michaelt. I only own SM strings, I think SWAM can sound more expressive and agile in a way.
> 
> I'm curious, what solo strings did you move to?


I now use Abbey Road 2. There are certain concessions demanded by it in comparison, of course, but I ultimately feel that what it can do _somewhat_ as well as SWAM, combined with what it _definitely_ does do better, tips the scales in its favor.

Not to get too off topic with the thread, but part of the appeal of AR2 for me is that it really nails the aforementioned Max Richter sound.


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## Mojo X (Apr 23, 2022)

Bruhelius said:


> To my ears, the idea of blending AM and SM leads to ironing out the imperfections we have in each respective platform.


I feel the same way. They both have their strengths. It's a question of workflow now.


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## Bruhelius (Apr 23, 2022)

Mojo X said:


> I feel the same way. They both have their strengths. It's a question of workflow now.


Yeah, that’s the thing. In my setup i have the two going to separate sub-STEMS, so i can adjust their respective balances for certain sections. You also want the mappings for MIDI to be as similar as possible so you don’t need to remap that much. 

I suggest to have CC1 branching out to produce data for other CCs. Once the data is printed, you can go in and post-tweak.

What i did for timing is to have a LFO on the midi delay plugin. This way, the timing offset can vary for each solo instance. A macro knob can then tighten or loosen the timing overall. Have distinct LFO freq for each instance. For intonation, i have a detuning mapped to CC. Every solo instrument can be detuned by a certain amount in a certain direction. Globally, for all solo instruments I control the detuning amplitude. They key is to maximize the uniqueness of each solo instrument performer, but respecting the overall arc of the section. Detuning happens when fast passages are played and at the onset of longer notes. Over the course of the note, detuning diminishes as the band gets in tune…
Thus, if you want maximum realism, you need to automate the timing and detuning amplitudes over your entire dataset. The back of the violin section will not always have a fixed timing offset compared to the first chair, in other words.

When making a Divisi A and Divisi B using the sample modeling chamber ensembles, you can apply the same logic as above, except it will be applied to the ensembles.

Regarding all other parameters, like bow pressure, vibrato int and depth, and bow position, portamento, i think you can get by by having a fixed mapping from the master MIDI data to the individual solo instruments via mapper X or internal mapping (swam offers this).

Chances are that all of this will be taken care of as soon as the SWAM ensembles for strings are released. But you can still achieve a great sound by blending SM and AM…you don’t need to have dedicated Midi lanes for this IMHO


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## muziksculp (Apr 25, 2022)

Mojo X said:


> At the moment it's 6 Vlns, 6 Vlas, 6 Celli, 3 Basses. I'm thinking of adding to it with the SWAM strings and get 2nd Vlns that way.


Hi @Mojo X ,

I started experimenting with SM Strings Solo vlns to try to create a violins 1 ensemble. i.e. 6 instances of Solo Vln, so far I'm having some issues where the resulting ensemble sounds kind of odd/phasing issues, I tried a few things to fix it, but I'm still not happy with my results. Any tips on how to avoid the phasing issues, (sounding accordionish) when playing all six solo vlns legato in unison.  

Thanks.


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## Mojo X (Apr 25, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Mojo X ,
> 
> I started experimenting with SM Strings Solo vlns to try to create a violins 1 ensemble. i.e. 6 instances of Solo Vln, so far I'm having some issues where the resulting ensemble sounds kind of odd/phasing issues, I tried a few things to fix it, but I'm still not happy with my results. Any tips on how to avoid the phasing issues, (sounding accordionish) when playing all six solo vlns legato in unison.
> 
> Thanks.


Each instance has to be bet set to a different instrument in controllers 4. I also change the parameters of each instance in pitch control (controllers 2) to be slightly different from each other. When I program a unison line I play each part separately and use the breath controller. It causes each part to be slightly out of tune.


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## muziksculp (Apr 25, 2022)

Mojo X said:


> Each instance has to be bet set to a different instrument in controllers 4. I also change the parameters of each instance in pitch control (controllers 2) to be slightly different from each other. When I program a unison line I play each part separately and use the breath controller. It causes each part to be slightly out of tune.


Hi @Mojo X ,

I did the steps to make each instance a different instrument, and the pitch control for each instance slightly, I even set a different track delay for each violin so they don't play together at the same time, but I didn't play each instance part separately for the unison section, I just armed all of them and played them in once. So, that's the part I need to change, I need to perform each one of them separately for the unison performance. That should take care of the issue. 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## Saxer (Apr 25, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Mojo X ,
> 
> I started experimenting with SM Strings Solo vlns to try to create a violins 1 ensemble. i.e. 6 instances of Solo Vln, so far I'm having some issues where the resulting ensemble sounds kind of odd/phasing issues, I tried a few things to fix it, but I'm still not happy with my results. Any tips on how to avoid the phasing issues, (sounding accordionish) when playing all six solo vlns legato in unison.
> 
> Thanks.


I didn't try ensembles with SM but with AM. A bit of detuning, panning, different vibrato speeds (for me most imprortant) and starting times worked for me.


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## muziksculp (Apr 25, 2022)

Saxer said:


> I didn't rtry ensembles with SM but with AM. A bit of detuning, panning, different vibrato speeds (for me most imprortant) and starting times worked for me.


Thanks  

I will try your tips when I use the SWAM Solo Strings to build an Ensemble.


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## muziksculp (Apr 25, 2022)

Hi,

After another good amount of experimenting with the SM solo vln to create a convincing ensemble sound, I came to the conclusion that it just doesn't work for me, it is just too much work to record each instrument of i.e. a 6 vlns ensemble, record each vln separately, and the results are still not that great to my ears.

I think Sample Modeling designed this library with the ensemble sections because they work best for ensemble sounds, they also added the chamber sections in the latest update. So, back to where I started. The way I see it now is to use the Solo with Chamber, or Solo with Ensemble to add more detail, or character. but not to use the solos to create ensembles.

I know that i.e. Divisimate is used with SWAM Solo Strings to create ensembles, and with great sounding results, since they don't have string ensembles (yet), but the SWAM solo vln is quite a different instrument when compared to the SM Solo Vln. So, it might lend itself better to creating an ensemble without the phasing, and odd sounding results when played all together, which is not the case with SM Solo Strings. 

I'm also using MIR-Pro to position the SM Sections, and Solo Instruments. Which I also find an important detail to achieve realistic results.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Bollen (Apr 25, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> After another good amount of experimenting with the SM solo vln to create a convincing ensemble sound, I came to the conclusion that it just doesn't work for me, it is just too much work to record each instrument of i.e. a 6 vlns ensemble, record each vln separately, and the results are still not that great to my ears.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't give up if I were you, it really is useful! You could use a multiscript to change your controllers, also don't be afraid of detuning them a lot. In VSL Dimension one single violin can be off as much as .011 cents. Once you're done you can save them as a template. 

Oh! Once you're done recording can duplicate each channel and offset the start/end notes by a few clicks (depending on the tempo).


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## Markrs (Apr 25, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I know that i.e. Divisimate is used with SWAM Solo Strings to create ensembles, and with great sounding results, since they don't have string ensembles (yet), but the SWAM solo vln is quite a different instrument when compared to the SM Solo Vln. So, it might lend itself better to creating an ensemble without the phasing, and odd sounding results when played all together, which is not the case with SM Solo Strings.


If you have Divisimate it has humanization features to help the instruments blend together.


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## muziksculp (Apr 25, 2022)

Markrs said:


> If you have Divisimate it has humanization features to help the instruments blend together.



Hi @Markrs ,

Thanks for the tip. I forgot about this feature, and Yes I have Divisimate. I doubt it will solve the issues I'm having with SM Solo Strings to create an ensemble. But I will give a try anyways, and experiment a bit more, just in case. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## muziksculp (Apr 25, 2022)

Bollen said:


> I wouldn't give up if I were you, it really is useful! You could use a multiscript to change your controllers, also don't be afraid of detuning them a lot. In VSL Dimension one single violin can be off as much as .011 cents. Once you're done you can save them as a template.
> 
> Oh! Once you're done recording can duplicate each channel and offset the start/end notes by a few clicks (depending on the tempo).


Hi @Bollen ,

Thanks for encouraging me to keep trying. It's a bit frustrating to get this to work, and hear the kind of results I'm hoping for. So far, I haven't been successful at achieving what I want. I will try to keep at it a bit more. If anyone has a good video, showing how SM solo strings can be used to create a very good sounding ensemble, I would be delighted to watch, and learn. 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## Bruhelius (Apr 26, 2022)

Bruhelius said:


> Sounds quite silky to me!
> 
> I've also been experimenting with layering AM solo instruments and SM ens and solo with some other secret sauce. I've built up divisi sections as well, made of individual solo instruments all with their own unique CC mapping (Reaper MIDI Mapper X works wonders).
> 
> ...


To make realistic ensembles from solo instruments i would also recommend applying additional IRs (blend) for each solo instance. 
I think it’s possible to do what Rohan de Livera did, but via remapping midiCCs (apply certain curves) rather than playing in each part and redoing all the midiCCs via leap motion or similar multi-axis devices.


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## Bollen (Apr 26, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Bollen ,
> 
> Thanks for encouraging me to keep trying. It's a bit frustrating to get this to work, and hear the kind of results I'm hoping for. So far, I haven't been successful at achieving what I want. I will try to keep at it a bit more. If anyone has a good video, showing how SM solo strings can be used to create a very good sounding ensemble, I would be delighted to watch, and learn.
> 
> ...


Well, I'm not sure if it's actually possible to automatise all the parameters without some heavy AI programming. So for the time being the biggest consideration one should have is _that it is precisely because they are individual players_, that a section sounds the way it does. I suggest you use a modifier mutiscript with different curves, on all but the first chair, to achieve different controller responses from the input. Detune your back chairs by as much as +/-0.11 cents. Make sure the vibrato rate of each instrument is different and also panned them anally! Then draw some random pitch bend (with the modifier applied) so that they all behave slightly different.


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## echo7 (Apr 26, 2022)

Bollen said:


> Well, I'm not sure if it's actually possible to automatise all the parameters without some heavy AI programming. So for the time being the biggest consideration one should have is _that it is precisely because they are individual players_, that a section sounds the way it does. I suggest you use a modifier mutiscript with different curves, on all but the first chair, to achieve different controller responses from the input. Detune your back chairs by as much as +/-0.11 cents. Make sure the vibrato rate of each instrument is different and also panned them anally! Then draw some random pitch bend (with the modifier applied) so that they all behave slightly different.


Can you tell me more about a modifier multiscript?


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## muziksculp (Apr 26, 2022)

Hi @Bollen ,

@Fa mentioned the Meldaproductions *MCCGenerator* Plugin in this post. I actually purchased the bundle this plugin comes in, but haven't used it yet, or figured out what it actually does, the user manual pdf is like 100 pages !

MCCGenerator

And here is https://vi-control.net/community/file:///C%3A/Users/Tarek/Documents/MCCGenerator.pdf (MCCGenerator User's Manual)

He also mentioned he will be posting some more feedback about this plugin.

https://vi-control.net/community/th...ps-tricks-demos-tutorials.119043/post-5078056


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## Vardaro (Apr 27, 2022)

While we are dicussing things other than SM strings..., has anyone explored the ensemble simulation in Embertone strings to compare?


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## Bruhelius (Apr 27, 2022)

Vardaro said:


> While we are dicussing things other than SM strings..., has anyone explored the ensemble simulation in Embertone strings to compare?


Yes I think we digressed a bit on a tangent while discussing the idea of layering the SM strings with other products on the market that have similar parameters. In a way, the concept was how one can make the SM strings work better, and I think that the workflow really boils down to what @Fa and other SM demo makers have said already. One has to expect that achieving realism and detail comes at the cost of spending more time on post processing the midi data. Listen to any Wagner or Mahler (only those two, LoL) piece performed by a real orchestra, and then, some people might come back here to this thread with slightly different views and expectations on things.


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## muziksculp (Apr 27, 2022)

Vardaro said:


> While we are dicussing things other than SM strings..., has anyone explored the ensemble simulation in Embertone strings to compare?


The Ensemble feature in i.e. their Friedlander Violin is a nice bonus, but I wouldn't use it as an alternative to some of my other ensemble vlns options from other libraries. Thanks for making me revisit these Embertone Solo Instruments, the Friedlander Violin is quite expressive, love the Sordino sound.

imho. Using Solo Strings to emulate Ensembles is a bit too much work for me, especially when one can layer multiple libraries to get more color, and animated realistic results.

For those using SM Strings, what's your take on this detail (Creating ens. from the solos) ? Is it worth the effort, and time ? My conclusion is : No it's not. Especially with SM Solo Strings. Especially since they offer Chamber, and Ensemble Strings section options, plus I can always layer the solo to achieve a bit more definition if needed. 

I haven't tried doing this with the SWAM Solo String, but I do plan to spend some time with them, and see what happens.


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## Bollen (Apr 27, 2022)

echo7 said:


> Can you tell me more about a modifier multiscript?


Extract the attached zip and put it in your Documents\Native Instruments\Kontakt\presets\Multiscripts:

Then open the multiscript in Kontakt, should be under Preset > User > CC Curve:





In the script change CC to the control you want to change e.g. CC1 and CC11 would be my suggestion:





Now for every instance you need to create a different curve and you can have up to 5 different multis (notice the different tabs above <empty>) to change different CC, such as vib rate, expression, attack etc.



muziksculp said:


> @Fa mentioned the Meldaproductions *MCCGenerator* Plugin in this post. I actually purchased the bundle this plugin comes in, but haven't used it yet, or figured out what it actually does, the user manual pdf is like 100 pages !


Yeah I saw @Fa 's post too. I have it bookmarked but haven't tried it yet. Since I'm primarily a notation guy I don't really use these tools very often.


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## justthere (Apr 30, 2022)

echo7 said:


> Here is my nearly completed version of Max Richter's On The Nature of Daylight. The last 5% always takes the longest...could edit and change cc data for hours. All S&ENS solo quintet other than a single zebra patch for the added bass that comes in around halfway. Let me know what you all think and/or criticism on the realism.
> 
> -B


You’re doing something I am a huge advocate for - varying vibrato speed. I always have my BC2 set to have nod controlling vibrato speed - because for me it’s such an intuitive gesture to bring my chin up to make the vibrato faster.


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## justthere (Apr 30, 2022)

Regarding making ensembles out of AM solo strings: I did this for a small indie film a while back and what I found was that at any level of randomizing, the result was not often quite what I wanted - because random is random, not human, and “humanizing” is generally random. Even constrained random, though helpful, is not contextual - it’s just throwing random numbers in. And when people play in an ensemble, the spread isn’t entirely random - it’s due to the intent of the players and their adjustments of their playing to blend and much less just plain random than people ascribe to it. I don’t want random timings, for example, because if it’s at the start of a phrase then someone rushing it isn’t what I want, but since it’s random if I don’t like it I have to keep printing it until it’s right. 

Even playing in one part at a time didn’t do it, because the interaction isn’t there entirely: it’s one player, then one reacting to one, then one reacting to two, then one reacting to three, and so on. Not how it happens in an ensemble - even with a section leader that everyone follows. We won’t have great ensembles until we have AI in the sequencer that models how people behave in groups in a huge number of instances. 

What helps (but isn’t strictly like reality) for me has been a series of things (assuming you are delivering a final recording and not just writing this way and then handing it to players:

Very selective randomizing of note-ons but only skewed towards later, not also earlier. And not globally, and not real-time - committed to the midi tracks. Because it doesn’t always work. This is generally true of all the randomizing - it’s random, so sometimes everyone will be too close together to sound good with these instruments, and it’s easier to go in and fix a few things here or there than for it to vary every single playback. 

Plain old detuning the whole patch up or down a bit. Spread out around no retuning with the first chair in tune. 

Different instrument types that SWAM allows. 

_Some_ pitch randomization and varying amounts of dynamics-to-pitch and vibrato ramp-ups. You are essentially saying that for example viola player number 3 has a habit of varying pitch with intensity, and player number 5 is more unsteady in finger position, and so on. And for me it made sense to think “split-desk” - that at each music stand there were two players, one “closer in” time- and pitch-wise than the other. And it had to be such that when I did a divisi split that there was a small lessening adjustment in divergence from the center pitch and rhythm for the A and B groups - that for six violas if you split that 4,5,6 were spread more like 1,2,3, so they weren’t too different. 

Some variability of vibrato speed. Not a huge amount. And optimal if you can control the variability of all of them with a single fader, because sometimes the ensemble will flock together for certain lines. SM Ensemble Strings have this feature already.

And absolutely do your math about delays and filtering based upon seating position if you don’t use placement software like MIR or VSS2. Spread things out sometimes a little more than reality.

All this said, I don’t commonly do it this way. SM Ensembles is sufficient as is. To be honest, when I did it like I felt it should be done, it dominated the computer I was using for it. I didn’t get a 2019 Mac Pro or a comparable PC - still waiting - and since I need stuff online all the time it was a nonstarter for me work-flow-wise. 

The main idea here is that randomization - “humanizing” isn’t a cure-all, because it doesn’t represent what good players would do. Since we don’t have the AI that would really do it, we are going for a sufficiently and appropriately broad sound. 

Also: in the case of violas again, if you set each instrument other than 1 and 4 (of 6) with a different curve for pitch bend and invert half of the curves, then just barely nudging it spreads the strings out and makes them more florid, and you can of course use this for cluster effects.


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## muziksculp (Apr 30, 2022)

justthere said:


> And when people play in an ensemble, the spread isn’t entirely random - it’s due to the intent of the players and their adjustments of their playing to blend and much less just plain random than people ascribe to it. I don’t want random timings, for example, because if it’s at the start of a phrase then someone rushing it isn’t what I want, but since it’s random if I don’t like it I have to keep printing it until it’s right.


I agree, very good, and important point. 



justthere said:


> Even playing in one part at a time didn’t do it, because the interaction isn’t there entirely: it’s one player, then one reacting to one, then one reacting to two, then one reacting to three, and so on. Not how it happens in an ensemble - even with a section leader that everyone follows. We won’t have great ensembles until we have AI in the sequencer that models how people behave in groups in a huge number of instances.


Yup, I gave playing one part at a time a try, and the results were not flattering. 

Thanks @justthere for contributing to this topic.


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## Fa (May 2, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> After another good amount of experimenting with the SM solo vln to create a convincing ensemble sound, I came to the conclusion that it just doesn't work
> 
> I'm also using MIR-Pro to position the SM Sections, and Solo Instruments. Which I also find an important detail to achieve realistic results.


I think that the point is clear, when we talk about work/time vs. result. But, even more important in the case of SM Strings, this is not requested because they provide building blocks that dramatically speed-up and simplify the job:

- as I roughly introduced in some of my posts, the scope of the Ensemble multis is to get maximum result with very small resources. Just 4 Kontakt module can simulate a quite larger section, thanks to the proprietary technology of SM. The backside is you don't get the same amount of control on some expressive elements (e.g. vibrato) and in general a slightly more static sound.

- But in case you may afford to consume larger resources (e.g. the equivalent of 1 module per player, as in the attempt of building ensembles out of solo players) there is no need and no convenience in doing it with solos at all! The chamber ensemble multis are exactly the building blocks you were looking for!

- with cc95 = 0 each of the 4 modules of a chamber ensemble is playing as a single player, including a full and soloistic control on vibrato. You may build a section of 12 violins with 3 tracks of Chamber violins. But the big advantage is that the 4 players of a chamber multi are already modulated in time and expression to be different and sound as a small section (due to internal script based on musical context interpretation and humanization): so taking care with Divisimate, or Logic modulators or whatever simple plugin of a different PitchBend modulation and time attack of the 3 multis will already create 90% of the magic, the rest being automation of other relevant parameters (e.g. slightly different curves for cc1 cc11 and cc19). 

Of course IR (cc100) of each multi has to be different, and another nice effect is getting a multi playing in mid position, and another in low position for even more variety.

If properly managed (I can post examples later, promised) it can create with no additional programming effort the real sound of a 12 player sections. 

An intermediate solution is to mix Ensemble multi with Chamber multi, using the same approach (in this case you just need 2 Multis for a very large section simulation, improving a lot from the bare Ensemble multi, even if not yet at the pure realism level of the 3 or 4 Chamber multis layered, resulting in 12 or 16 real players!


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## echo7 (May 2, 2022)

Very rough programming here. Which do you think sounds the best? One is SWAM v3 (played with manual bowing...very difficult even harder to edit), the other is SM S&ENS. Both quartets, programmed differently.

All reverbs/ER turned off and I'm using my own instead. Both have a similar reverb treatment, other than "placement" and "reverb" no other processing used.

Quartet A
View attachment Quartet A.mp3


Quartet B
View attachment Quartet B.mp3


Quartet AB (Layered)
View attachment Quartet AB.mp3


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## muziksculp (May 2, 2022)

Fa said:


> I think that the point is clear, when we talk about work/time vs. result. But, even more important in the case of SM Strings, this is not requested because they provide building blocks that dramatically speed-up and simplify the job:
> 
> - as I roughly introduced in some of my posts, the scope of the Ensemble multis is to get maximum result with very small resources. Just 4 Kontakt module can simulate a quite larger section, thanks to the proprietary technology of SM. The backside is you don't get the same amount of control on some expressive elements (e.g. vibrato) and in general a slightly more static sound.
> 
> ...


Hi @Fa ,

Thank You Very Much for your helpful tips, and feedback. I totally agree with you. I haven't yet tried to experiment with using 4 Chamber Sections, or a Chamber and Ens Section to achiever a more lush, and realistic sounding string section, but your tips have me already very excited and gearing up to test this. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## muziksculp (May 2, 2022)

echo7 said:


> Very rough programming here. Which do you think sounds the best? One is SWAM v3 (played with manual bowing...very difficult even harder to edit), the other is SM S&ENS. Both quartets, programmed differently.
> 
> All reverbs/ER turned off and I'm using my own instead. Both have a similar reverb treatment, other than "placement" and "reverb" no other processing used.
> 
> ...


Hi @echo7 ,

Thanks for posting these experiments. So.. Here is what I think about these tests. 

Q-A sounds a bit too nasal, and harsh.

Q-B sounds less harsh, but lacks definition, a bit too mushy sounding.

Q-A+B sounds better than the other two, but there is still something odd about it. But hard to define what it is. Maybe the Nasal sound of Q-A, which is still audible is what bothers me. 

Oh, and as far as SWAM Solo Strings played with Manual Bowing, what do you mean by 'Manual Bowing' ? I'm not sure I understand what you mean here ? 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## echo7 (May 2, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @echo7 ,
> 
> Thanks for posting these experiments. So.. Here is what I think about these tests.
> 
> ...


Thanks for checking it out.

A is SWAM Strings v3

B is SM S&Ens

AB is them combined.

I'm sure EQ would help both of them a lot.

In SWAM there are 3 "bowing" play styles. Expression, Bipolar, and Bowing.

I used the bowing play style where you use positive and negative expression direction to change bow up/down. This simulates "using a bow" like a player would. No sound unless expression is moving (like a bow). The faster it moves the louder the dynamics. You run out of bow (when expression nears 0 or 127), so you have to switch directions like a real bow change.

This is what makes SWAM so cool, but after a lot of practice with good controllers, it's very difficult to perform this way. Fun but difficult. And is very hard to edit afterwards, especially if you need to quantize notes, then you also have to fix the bowing. Basically unless you want a slurred legato, the bow must change directions at the start of a new note, and can require a lot of editing.


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## justthere (May 2, 2022)

Here’s one vote against the layer 😁 It’s rare to me that layering smaller ensembles or singles works out. And this is one reason why the SM’s get lots of use - they sound sweeter.


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## muziksculp (May 2, 2022)

echo7 said:


> This is what makes SWAM so cool, but after a lot of practice with good controllers, it's very difficult to perform this way. Fun but difficult. And is very hard to edit afterwards, especially if you need to quantize notes, then you also have to fix the bowing. Basically unless you want a slurred legato, the bow must change directions at the start of a new note, and can require a lot of editing.


I think the 'Bowing' Mode is a tough one to work with when using SWAM.

Have you tried using the 'Expression' Mode, I think it is easier to get good results with it. Also the 'Bipolar' Mode is good for fast-short stacc./Spicc performances.

There is the only video for SWAM that gets deeper into how to best use these modes. Maybe you have seen it, but if you didn't I will post it here. I find this video helpful, but not super easy to grasp the first time I watched it. I think a better video that goes into these details would be very helpful, one that has a real person showing these details, and narrating along, and more examples, ..etc. would be great. Oh, plus I find the background music they used in the video quite annoying to listen to.


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## muziksculp (May 2, 2022)

justthere said:


> And this is one reason why the SM’s get lots of use - they sound sweeter.


I'm a bit unclear about your statement. Do you mean the SM Strings sound better/sweeter when they are layered ? I'm guessing, that's what you mean.


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## timbit2006 (May 3, 2022)

Mojo X said:


> Here's the same bit I posted yesterday with SWAM added in. Just an experiment.


this is beautiful


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## justthere (May 3, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Do you mean the SM Strings sound better/sweeter when they are layered ? I'm guessing, that's what you mean.


What I mean is that their character is sweeter. Less abrasive and metallic/rosin-y. Unharshing the SWAMs was always the thing for me.


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## Windbag (May 22, 2022)

How are you guys getting on with spiccatos, specifically with solo and chamber (small ensemble) violins? I've got a track that needs some and am using the excuse to pick up either S&ES (which i've been anxious to try) or the SWAM violin that I really should have gotten a long time ago. Anyone have both? Is there enough bowing reversal and/or natural variation to avoid machinegunning with SM's strings?


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## echo7 (May 22, 2022)

I'd say depends on what the use is but my opinion is that SM is quite good. They do for me require a lot of midi editing however and there are a lot of controls that can subtly effect short notes. Anything heavy will likely require to layer "traditional" samples on top.

You should check out the SM demo here:








Solo, Chamber & Ensemble Strings v2 - Audio demos


Audio demos for Solo, Chamber & Ensemble Strings v2 by Samplemodeling




www.samplemodeling.com








That shows how versatile the spiccato can be. They offer the midi for this as well here.








Solo, Chamber & Ensemble Strings v2 - Downloads


Overcoming the limits between real and sampled instruments




www.samplemodeling.com





Quite helpful to study that as I think their short notes are programmed quite differently from other products...particularly how much the length of the note effects the result.

I don't own the latest AM strings, but I feel they might be easier to play in (for spiccato). Honestly haven't heard much decent AM stuff in general so I haven't been convinced to pick them up yet. I believe you posted Cello Suite No 1 with their cello on another thread right? That sounded great. If you can get nice results using their staccato/spiccato on the cello as well then I'm sure the tone and playability translates to their other products too.

Curious to hear what you decide on and what you make! As an owner of SM strings let me know if you have any other questions about those.


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## mozart999uk (May 23, 2022)

I'm interested in this as I haven't been able to get good sounding repeated / same note spiccs / staccs out of either the solos or chambers yet. Something about the attacks and releases sounds wrong to me- particularly at slower tempos - they don't seem "clean" somehow. If anyone has any tips I'd be grateful. Will download the midi files and take a look / listen now....


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## Bollen (May 23, 2022)

Windbag said:


> How are you guys getting on with spiccatos, specifically with solo and chamber (small ensemble) violins? I've got a track that needs some and am using the excuse to pick up either S&ES (which i've been anxious to try) or the SWAM violin that I really should have gotten a long time ago. Anyone have both? Is there enough bowing reversal and/or natural variation to avoid machinegunning with SM's strings?


They're good, but not great. You could see some of my earlier posts we tried very hard to imitate VSL repetitions without much success. There's a little snap or clicking sound at the beginning of every note that betrays its artificialness... Hopefully it's something the nice people at SM are still working on.


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## robgb (May 23, 2022)

echo7 said:


> Very rough programming here. Which do you think sounds the best? One is SWAM v3 (played with manual bowing...very difficult even harder to edit), the other is SM S&ENS. Both quartets, programmed differently.
> 
> All reverbs/ER turned off and I'm using my own instead. Both have a similar reverb treatment, other than "placement" and "reverb" no other processing used.
> 
> ...


Quartet B (which I assume is SM) sounds best, although I'd mix the low strings a little louder because the high strings dominate. I used to be a huge proponent of SWAM strings until I started using SM Strings. Now SWAM just sounds unnatural to me, and the update did little to change that.


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## muziksculp (May 25, 2022)

Hi,

Anyone experiment with using multiple Chamber sections to create a larger string section sound ? @Fa suggested this approach. See his post a few posts above. 

I'm experimenting with this, and so far getting some good results. I will post something about this in the near future. I'm just curious if other users have been giving this a try ? 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## Fa (May 26, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> Anyone experiment with using multiple Chamber sections to create a larger string section sound ? @Fa suggested this approach. See his post a few posts above.
> 
> ...


As you mention, I gave to that more than a try, and I absolutely confirm it's a pretty good approach with the following important tricks:
- use different IR for the multiple sections (cc 100, instruments)

- create some different subtle pitch bend modulation for the multiple sections (with modulators or just with automation, even manual draw of a random wavy line moving around zero can do the job)

In addition you may play with other small adjustments (e.g. different cc26, and slightly different vibrato), and I recommend to use the sections with ensemble size cc95 to zero (or very low at your taste).

the best effect is reached when you may afford to clone the midi track, and slightly differentiate it for the multiple overlapping sections (e.g. with a small amount of humanization or slightly different quantization etc.) to get a "less synchronized" attack in shorts and during fast phrases (e.g. runs, trills etc.).

With this approach, in my very humble opinion, one can get the "closest to real" phrasing actually possible on the market.


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## DANIELE (May 26, 2022)

Fa said:


> create some different subtle pitch bend modulation for the multiple sections (with modulators or just with automation, even manual draw of a random wavy line moving around zero can do the job)


I have a question about this: the pitch bending has some instrument specific behavior, using modulators could end in some not realistic performances, doesn't it?

Use modulators could be a faster solution instead of drawing pitch automations for all the tracks but could be also unrealistic. Maybe modulate the attacks could be a better solution.


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## I like music (May 26, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> Anyone experiment with using multiple Chamber sections to create a larger string section sound ? @Fa suggested this approach. See his post a few posts above.
> 
> ...


My poor laptop, but yes, you get good results


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## I like music (May 26, 2022)

Fa said:


> As you mention, I gave to that more than a try, and I absolutely confirm it's a pretty good approach with the following important tricks:
> - use different IR for the multiple sections (cc 100, instruments)
> 
> - create some different subtle pitch bend modulation for the multiple sections (with modulators or just with automation, even manual draw of a random wavy line moving around zero can do the job)
> ...


Random question (BTW this approach I really have enjoyed) but do you know if the team has ever considered (or if it is even technically possible) to mimic a multi-mic approach in the instrument?


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## Bollen (May 26, 2022)

I haven't tested it myself, but you could also use the CC curve multiscript to automatically get different responses from the same input. I also put all pitch parameters (dynamics to pitch, pitch fluctuation, etc) to at least 80, in all SM instruments.


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## Fa (May 26, 2022)

DANIELE said:


> I have a question about this: the pitch bending has some instrument specific behavior, using modulators could end in some not realistic performances, doesn't it?
> 
> Use modulators could be a faster solution instead of drawing pitch automations for all the tracks but could be also unrealistic. Maybe modulate the attacks could be a better solution.


Hi Daniele, indeed instrument specific and music context is better.
But the kind of PB fluctuation I'm recommending is not as deep as an expressive one, and is just generating a random constant pitch difference between the multiple sections (they already have the AI script doing it, but the default script is for a strict tuning, while real orchestral sections have a constant distance between players that is producing the full and rich sound of the resulting section). Obviously a manual and musical-context dependant PB programming can go one step forward but with considerably higher amount of time/work involved.

So you may wonder why the instrument had not this additional PB variation already included?
Well, as you remember, it has it, and quite sophisticated! You may use dynamic modulation and pitch attack for that, but they are not "visible" and may interact in some unpredictable way, while an external PB modulation is totally transparent and under control, and that's the reason for suggesting it as a convenient complement to the internal scripts.


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## Fa (May 26, 2022)

I like music said:


> Random question (BTW this approach I really have enjoyed) but do you know if the team has ever considered (or if it is even technically possible) to mimic a multi-mic approach in the instrument?


Ok, we may open the pandora box with this topic LOL... but short answer is "yes and no".

The anechoic source of SM strings is viable for any possible mic simulation, while a real multi-mic recording has all the good and the bad of a real recording (critical phase alignment and embedded unique positioning, early reflection and ambience) beside being very demanding from a disk space and memory/CPU load point of view.

For that reason several of the "multi-mic" libraries on the market are not real, but simulated with convolution, and just a few of them are really coming from real life multi mic recordings on stage (e.g. EW, Spitfire and Vienna Synchron etc.).

So the good news are that with the dry signal of the SM Strings you don't need the producer support, and you may use the multi-mic simulation capability of whatever software (MIR, Altiverb, VSS2, SPAT etc.)

Even in the Kontakt engine, by default the SM strings anyway are using a mix of a close mic simulation (controllable with the Early Reflection controller in the virtual sound stage) + main room mic simulation (controllable with the main reverb for solos or send convolution for ensembles). The total exclusion of both (e.g. use dry instrument and put ER to zero) is giving you the "close to anechoic" signal you need for any creative stereo or multichannel approach.


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## I like music (May 26, 2022)

Fa said:


> Ok, we may open the pandora box with this topic LOL... but short answer is "yes and no".
> 
> The anechoic source of SM strings is viable for any possible mic simulation, while a real multi-mic recording has all the good and the bad of a real recording (critical phase alignment and embedded unique positioning, early reflection and ambience) beside being very demanding from a disk space and memory/CPU load point of view.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the detailed reply, and it all makes sense! Good nuggets in there.


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## Bollen (May 26, 2022)

Fa said:


> while real orchestral sections have a constant distance between players that is producing the full and rich sound of the resulting section


This is it in a nutshell! When I'm doing serious programming, say for a film or something, I tend to go through all the instruments just visually and add a pitch bend with the pen or mouse (so that they're all different) for large intervals. If the interval is going up I pitch bend the attack from below, if it's going down I do the opposite. Although if you sometimes get it the other way around it just adds more realism! It only takes about 10 minutes to do a whole orchestra like this for say 20mins of music.


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## muziksculp (May 26, 2022)

Fa said:


> As you mention, I gave to that more than a try, and I absolutely confirm it's a pretty good approach with the following important tricks:
> - use different IR for the multiple sections (cc 100, instruments)
> 
> - create some different subtle pitch bend modulation for the multiple sections (with modulators or just with automation, even manual draw of a random wavy line moving around zero can do the job)
> ...


Hi @Fa ,

I will apply these tips, and see how it goes. 

I also set the Attack Time for all the chamber sections to the same value, because if they differ, and the portamento is triggered when playing at very low velocity, the portamento would sound very odd, and out of sync. , do you have any other tips for making the multiple chamber sections portamento sound very natural besides setting the attack time to the same value for all the chamber sections ?

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## JimDiGritz (May 31, 2022)

Bollen said:


> This is it in a nutshell! When I'm doing serious programming, say for a film or something, I tend to go through all the instruments just visually and add a pitch bend with the pen or mouse (so that they're all different) for large intervals. If the interval is going up I *pitch bend* the *attack *from below, if it's going down I do the opposite. Although if you sometimes get it the other way around it just adds more realism! It only takes about 10 minutes to do a whole orchestra like this for say 20mins of music.


Sorry for the dumb question, but are you talking about adding *Pitch Bend* cc modulation/curve or adding a cc modulation/curve for the *Attack* parameter?


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## Bollen (May 31, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> Sorry for the dumb question, but are you talking about adding *Pitch Bend* cc modulation/curve or adding a cc modulation/curve for the *Attack* parameter?


Not a dumb question at all, I'm talking about pitch bend, it doesn't need much as log as they're all different i.e. hand drawn.


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## justthere (Jun 4, 2022)

Fa said:


> For that reason several of the "multi-mic" libraries on the market are not real, but simulated with convolution, and just a few of them are really coming from real life multi mic recordings on stage (e.g. EW, Spitfire and Vienna Synchron etc.).


And every single one of those is more sluggish and mushy in legato as a result. Every crossfaded note transition is an unnatural blur. Some handle it better than others, but to briefly be critical of Spitfire (which I commonly am - sorry: I want their stuff to be great but they will have to change their approach), their Appassionata library, which is pitched as having fabulous legatos, sounds more like a Prophet 5 in their demos - pretty much every legato transition is mush. It's a simple matter of this - is it easier to do one elegant well-placed crossfade or 3? 5? 10? and how often do you want to hear the violas from the bassoon spot mic perspective?


Fa said:


> So the good news are that with the dry signal of the SM Strings you don't need the producer support, and you may use the multi-mic simulation capability of whatever software (MIR, Altiverb, VSS2, SPAT etc.)


This is always how I have done it - close (spot) mics where possible with a placement plugin, a unifying group of scoring stage IR's with not too much in the way off early reflections for near, middle and rear instruments (the "tree mics"), and a unifying tail reverb, often algorithmic. If one wants to sound like a film orchestra, one has to recreate the way a film orchestra is recorded. (Sometimes the spot mics for an instrument are a bit thin-sounding because they are not the full-range large-element condensers used on the tree but rather smaller, more directional microphones that, being closer, don't give the waveforms much time to develop - and this is where the right stage IR comes into play. But it's also possible to bus the spot mic through an eq and then send that (pre-fader send, no original signal in the mix) to the stage IR.



Fa said:


> Even in the Kontakt engine, by default the SM strings anyway are using a mix of a close mic simulation (controllable with the Early Reflection controller in the virtual sound stage) + main room mic simulation (controllable with the main reverb for solos or send convolution for ensembles). The total exclusion of both (e.g. use dry instrument and put ER to zero) is giving you the "close to anechoic" signal you need for any creative stereo or multichannel approach.


Absolutely this. Their settings are very usable, but one can do better in some cases. But the main thing is: not having three sets of early reflections all over the place. As in using a tree mic perspective for your "dry instrument" (one set of reflections) but then panning that so that some of those reflections are coming from some weird place in the middle of the room; and another early-reflection-heavy main room (a second set); and another reflection-heavy tail (a third set). Coherency and spatial cues go out the window.

The real challenge is that most convolution reverbs on the market were made after a certain critical point, when studios began falling on harder times and didn't want to sell IR's of their rooms any more, because they needed people to actually use the rooms and not think they could do something as good on their own. And I'm not saying you can't use some IR of a concert hall if you want to, but fer meee it sounds more like a score if you start with a stage and then do things to it, because that's what you hear when you listen to a score with a real orchestra.


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## jononotbono (Jun 4, 2022)

Playing around trying to create a panel so I can instantly access all controls for SM Strings on my touch screen. Need to test it all out and its just a rough WIP but I'm thinking something like this could be useful.

I'm also thinking about a Breath Controller. Anyone use one and got experience with one?


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## justthere (Jun 4, 2022)

TEControl BC2. 4 axes of control - breath pressure, bite (on the mouthpiece), head tilt, head nod. There's a hilariously expensive one that has a nice wooden mouthpiece but only does breath, so, nah for me. I love mine. Heavy use.


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## jononotbono (Jun 4, 2022)

justthere said:


> TEControl BC2. 4 axes of control - breath pressure, bite (on the mouthpiece), head tilt, head nod. There's a hilariously expensive one that has a nice wooden mouthpiece but only does breath, so, nah for me. I love mine. Heavy use.


So worth it then. Hmmm, I might have to save up for one at some point!


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## justthere (Jun 4, 2022)

jononotbono said:


> So worth it then. Hmmm, I might have to save up for one at some point!


I will say that I have also used a LEAPMotion and the Geco software, and a Yamaha breath controller plugged into a VL1-m, and also pedals - and the TEControl is my favorite by far. Though pedals have their place. And also, using nod for vibrato speed is a game-changer. Very intuitive for me. 

And the above-mentioned expensive thing is made by Hornberg. The TEControl I use is $239 US. 





USB MIDI Breath and Bite Controller 2


Configurable Breath and Bite Controller with USB-MIDI class compliant interface, flexible headset, bite force sensitive mouthpiece and inclination sensor, for use with computer based soft-synthesizers, VST sample libraries and DAW software and keyboards with USB-host




www.tecontrol.se


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## jononotbono (Jun 4, 2022)

justthere said:


> I will say that I have also used a LEAPMotion and the Geco software, and a Yamaha breath controller plugged into a VL1-m, and also pedals - and the TEControl is my favorite by far. Though pedals have their place. And also, using nod for vibrato speed is a game-changer. Very intuitive for me.
> 
> And the above-mentioned expensive thing is made by Hornberg. The TEControl I use is $239 US.
> 
> ...


Yeah I'll stick it on the list of future purchases then.
I've never been interested in those Leap Motions. Seems exhausting work for one's arms and after 30 mins I'd probably put it in a drawer somewhere and never use it


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## justthere (Jun 4, 2022)

jononotbono said:


> Seems exhausting work for one's arms


Then you would hate conducting. ✋💀🤚


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## justthere (Jun 4, 2022)

Also - I don't know about you, but even though knobs take up less space on a screen which is a plus, I lean towards faders because it's a 1:1 relationship between movement and the indicator. But your layout is very cool. I have one in TouchOSC and one in ComposerTools Pro. Faders everywhere.🙃


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## Ivan Duch (Jun 4, 2022)

justthere said:


> And every single one of those is more sluggish and mushy in legato as a result. Every crossfaded note transition is an unnatural blur. Some handle it better than others, but to briefly be critical of Spitfire (which I commonly am - sorry: I want their stuff to be great but they will have to change their approach), their Appassionata library, which is pitched as having fabulous legatos, sounds more like a Prophet 5 in their demos - pretty much every legato transition is mush. It's a simple matter of this - is it easier to do one elegant well-placed crossfade or 3? 5? 10? and how often do you want to hear the violas from the bassoon spot mic perspective?
> 
> This is always how I have done it - close (spot) mics where possible with a placement plugin, a unifying group of scoring stage IR's with not too much in the way off early reflections for near, middle and rear instruments (the "tree mics"), and a unifying tail reverb, often algorithmic. If one wants to sound like a film orchestra, one has to recreate the way a film orchestra is recorded. (Sometimes the spot mics for an instrument are a bit thin-sounding because they are not the full-range large-element condensers used on the tree but rather smaller, more directional microphones that, being closer, don't give the waveforms much time to develop - and this is where the right stage IR comes into play. But it's also possible to bus the spot mic through an eq and then send that (pre-fader send, no original signal in the mix) to the stage IR.
> 
> ...



Very interesting post. Thanks for sharing. 

Any practical advice on how to implement that sort of spatialization?


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## justthere (Jun 4, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> Very interesting post. Thanks for sharing.
> 
> Any practical advice on how to implement that sort of spatialization?


Here are three ways to do it. 

1.) First use a mono or dry stereo source - dry stereo in the case of SM strings, which as has been said above means loading the dry strings and turning off early reflections. 

Then use your favorite placement software: Virtual Soundstage 2, Precedence, MReverb, whatever you like - to put the instruments in place in a scoring stage-sized room. Keep in mind the internal balance of dry to earky reflections,, as “dry” is your focusing agent, or spot mic.

Then use your favorite true stereo scoring stage IR. You have some early reflections from your placement software if it’s stuff that provides that. If it doesn’t then use some from the scoring stage IR but make sure the stage tail is a bit shorter and softer. When setting up sends for this reverb, make sure you use stereo sends. The placement software will feed the reverb appropriately - but sometimes it helps to place a stereo width adjuster before the reverb to enhance the spread. This is the tree. 

Then use your favorite tail reverb. No early reflections. This one gives you the length and is what the mixer would add for that expensive as well as expansive quality. So smooth is what you want. You can sometimes even use a plate, but generally an algorithmic hall with no ER will do pretty well. 

2.) Use MIR. Maybe Spat - I haven’t tried it. 

3.) If you don’t have placement software but you do have a convolution reverb that has placement built in, as well as multiple mic positions - in other words, IR’s made from multiple places in the room, like, say, varying numbers of feet from the microphones, or the option to place within the captured room - then you can group things by section so you don’t have to use a huge number of DSP-hungry reverbs. You can go front-stage/middle-stage/rear and pan things according to rows. Strings/harp/piano front, winds-horns middle, trumpets/low brass/percussion rear. For each section, use stereo sends and pan the instruments, pre-fader so you can lower the dry instruments (“spots”) without affecting the tree. 

Another thought is that if you need to eq the dry but don’t need that eq going to the room, you can always send it to an additional channel and use that to feed the tree reverb. You can also eq the dry instruments and then put an eq in front of the reverb. Good to do anyway because of what happens to sound over distance. I usually roll bottom out of the winds (AudioModeling) anyway. 

And there are other considerations for surround mixing. That’s where things get weird to me because most often nobody is trying to simulate an actual space per se - they just want some size behind you. So a separate tail and far mics, or a surround tail and far mics, will do it. I’ve played around with using multichannel busses for placement, panning between close and far mic positions - with mixed results, so to speak. My feeling was “more trouble than it’s worth”, because I’m trying to get through shows and mix myself, and mixing is happening while I’m working, which is one reason why I don’t use MIR - the added latency on my system makes it too cumbersome. It does sound terrific, and the Synchron stage is very nice.


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## HCMarkus (Jun 4, 2022)

Love TEControl BC. Don't have SM strings (yet) but do own the AM strings and love controlling them (and otherVIs) with BC. And, yes, the Nod for vibrato speed is so nice. I use Aftertouch for vibrato depth.


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## jononotbono (Jun 5, 2022)

justthere said:


> Also - I don't know about you, but even though knobs take up less space on a screen which is a plus, I lean towards faders because it's a 1:1 relationship between movement and the indicator. But your layout is very cool. I have one in TouchOSC and one in ComposerTools Pro. Faders everywhere.🙃


Well, having a 27” touch screen helps


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## jononotbono (Jun 5, 2022)

HCMarkus said:


> Love TEControl BC. Don't have SM strings (yet) but do own the AM strings and love controlling them (and otherVIs) with BC. And, yes, the Nod for vibrato speed is so nice. I use Aftertouch for vibrato depth.


Synthesised vibrato is always what sounds horrible unless you change the data so it doesn’t just stay at exactly the same speed. It’s one of the fastest ways to make the sound “synthy”. The Embertone Violin and Fischer Viola have synthesised Vib and the same thing sounds weird without care. The breath controller sounds like an excellent purchase!


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## Ivan Duch (Jun 5, 2022)

justthere said:


> Here are three ways to do it.
> 
> 1.) First use a mono or dry stereo source - dry stereo in the case of SM strings, which as has been said above means loading the dry strings and turning off early reflections.
> 
> ...



Thank you so much for taking the time for the detailed answer. I'll be running some tests with all of that info.

You remove the ER and part of the tail from the IR reverb or you use both ERs from the placement plugin and IR?


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## justthere (Jun 5, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> Thank you so much for taking the time for the detailed answer. I'll be running some tests with all of that info.
> 
> You remove the ER and part of the tail from the IR reverb or you use both ERs from the placement plugin and IR?


You are welcome. I hope it’s useful. 

Depending on two things - the amount of spatial cues provided by the placement software and the IR itself. What I like about the stage IR I use is that I can shorten it but still have the enhancements to low end that it offers. 

As far as the placement software goes: listen to just that and see if you have a sense of the room - not just width but the actual walls - and that will help you decide how much ER you need from the IR.


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## Ivan Duch (Jun 5, 2022)

justthere said:


> You are welcome. I hope it’s useful.
> 
> Depending on two things - the amount of spatial cues provided by the placement software and the IR itself. What I like about the stage IR I use is that I can shorten it but still have the enhancements to low end that it offers.
> 
> As far as the placement software goes: listen to just that and see if you have a sense of the room - not just width but the actual walls - and that will help you decide how much ER you need from the IR.



Noted! Thanks a lot. Do you encounter issues with phasing ?


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## muziksculp (Jun 5, 2022)

Hi,

I'm very happy to see this thread active, and more tips, and questions being posted by fellow forum members, and users of this library.  Thanks to all your contributions here. This is a very special library.

I have been experimenting with placement, and other details as well.

Currently using MIR-Pro (Synchron Stage A).





I wanted to share an interesting tip with you, basically I was able to create a richer timbre of the solo violin, and solo cello, by layering two solo instruments ! But, one of the two has its timbral shaping edited, and uses a different instrument model, you can mix these two version as you feel fit, to taste to get a fuller, more complex timbre of the solo instrument. I changed the pitch of one of the two version by a very slight amount (i.e. .03), to avoid phasing issues, also make sure to set both versions Attack Time to the same value, I have mine set to (80) so they trigger the same type of portamento when they are triggered, otherwise the portamento will sound very strange.

I got the initial idea from the new 8dio Deep Quintet legato library, where they used two solo violins, and two celli, and one viola. Yet, when I hear the two solo violins, It sounds like one violin, rather than two, same with the two celli. So, I decided to give this a try, but with a little twist using SM Solo Strings.

I used the Synchron Stage A ERs. for the solo instruments, and added the tail to the instruments using TC-Electronics VSS3 Reverb, . one of my favorite reverbs. the internal Kontakt reverb, and ER is turned OFF for all instruments. I will post some audio of this experiment soon. I'm also trying to emulate the Philip Glass style back-forth bowing style that is demonstrated by the 8Dio Deep Quintet library, using SM Solo Strings, utilizing this new editing technique. I will also post some audio of this test once I think I have something convincing enough.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## doctoremmet (Jun 5, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm very happy to see this thread active, and more tips, and questions being posted by fellow forum members, and users of this library.  Thanks to all your contributions here. This is a very special library.
> 
> ...


Very cool.


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## muziksculp (Jun 5, 2022)

Hi,

OK, so here is very short demo to showcase the SM Solo Violin X 2 . One of them has its 'Timbral-Shaping' parameters edited.

I'm using MIR-Pro Synchron Stage A for placement, and Early Reflections. TC-Electronics VSS3 Reverb for adding the reverb tails.

I did this demo in a rush, so it can be further highly refined, and even the accompaniment strings are done in a rush using Afflatus Strings shorts.

View attachment Sample Modeling Solo Violin X 2 Test 1.mp3


I'm going to continue experimenting with these techniques, so far I'm very happy with the results. This library has so many mysteries I need to unlock, but I enjoy doing this stuff, especially when I get some pleasant surprises after experimenting.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## muziksculp (Jun 5, 2022)

Hi,

Please note I could add so many additional modulations/edits to the solo violin performance above, i.e. vibrato, overtones, bow noise, vibrato performed via external hand gestures, use a breath controller for the performance, ...and more. But, even without all these additional tasks, I'm quite happy with the result.

My main objective for posting the above demo, is to show you how much richer the Solo Violin can sound with the edits , and treatments I mentioned.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## justthere (Jun 5, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> Noted! Thanks a lot. Do you encounter issues with phasing ?


No. What people get that from is putting stereo things with out-of phase elements (including reverbs) into placement software. As far as solo instruments being used to create a section, one has to guarantee that there are as few possible common points as possible, so some detuning of the instruments themselves (+/- up to 10 or so cents), varying delays (which you can do on the sequencer tracks), and some randomizing of pitch parameters will limit phasing issues - with the caveat that randomizing them means that sometimes you will get some randomly phasy moments.


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## justthere (Jun 5, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> My main objective for posting the above demo, is to show you how much richer the Solo Violin can sound with the edits , and treatments I mentioned.


Glad you posted. I will say that though I hear the richness thing you are describing, there’s a certain amount of “standing wave” in this that would make it problematic. Also, the vibrato sounds a bit blurry - but this is a place where I think it’s partially due to differences between the two instruments and partially due to the duration of some of the more prominent reflections - maybe some more pre-delay on the send to the reverb is in order? I would wind up going less natural-sounding if the violin were at that level - dry it up a little and use something dull with a longer decay to get rid of that blur echo effect. And great, you are making me cover Afflatus again.


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## CT (Jun 5, 2022)

justthere said:


> No. What people get that from is putting stereo things with out-of phase elements (including reverbs) into placement software. As far as solo instruments being used to create a section, one has to guarantee that there are as few possible common points as possible, so some detuning of the instruments themselves (+/- up to 10 or so cents), varying delays (which you can do on the sequencer tracks), and some randomizing of pitch parameters will limit phasing issues - with the caveat that randomizing them means that sometimes you will get some randomly phasy moments.


Do you have any audio examples to go along with your extensive methods as described in this thread?


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## muziksculp (Jun 5, 2022)

justthere said:


> I will say that though I hear the richness thing you are describing, there’s a certain amount of “standing wave” in this that would make it problematic.


Hi @justthere ,

Thank You for the feedback.

As I mentioned, this is still in the experimental phase, and a rough demo that I did in a bit of a rush. So, I will be posting additional more refined demos/versions in the near future.

I'm trying to figure out how I can reduce/eliminate the 'Standing Wave' issue you are referring to, is it something you hear in the tail part of the reverb ? or the early reflections ? 

With respect to the vibrato sounding a bit blurry, well I think I used the library's vibrato, which in this case, is doubled, so I think I might be better off using pitch-bend via an external controller to simulate a natural vibrato. Again, more experimental work is the only way to figure things out, and find the magic formula 

One thing for sure, I will be posting more audio examples, and tips.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## muziksculp (Jun 5, 2022)

Hi @justthere ,

I think I found why you are hearing the 'Standing Waves' issue. Look at this pic below, Violin 1 and Violin 2 are next to each other, I need to place them on top of each other, in the same spot in the Synchron Stage, so they sound more in-phase, and not create 'Standing Waves' in the audio demo. There might be other variables I will need to check related to the Reverb, and Early Reflection settings.

I will post a new version of the demo once I think it has less, or no standing waves issues, and I have a more focused vibrato happening. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## muziksculp (Jun 5, 2022)

Hi,

I'm finding it hard to use two Solo-Violins and not get any odd sonic behavior, or side effects, it's either phasing, or vibrato sound out of focus, and sometimes get a chorus type sounding line, so I think I would recommend just using one Solo-Violin to represent a Solo-Violin, and not get fancy like I was trying to. 

But I don't mind further experimenting with odd ideas. Because You never know what happens until you try.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## muziksculp (Jun 5, 2022)

Hi,

OK, so another update on my experimentation with the Solo-Violin. I decided to switch to another technique to enrich the timbre, and sonic character of the Solo-Violin, basically using Console/Vintage Analog emulation Pre-Amps, and EQs. which seem to deliver what my ears have been craving to hear compared to what the out of the box Solo-Violin sounds like, even though, I have it in the MIR-Pro Synchron Stage, and added Reverb tail, and ER. The Console EQ, and Pre-Amp are able to deliver some great improvements, and the good thing is, there are no side effects associated with using them, except a bit of additional CPU usage.

I hope this is helpful info. , if you have these types of plugins, I would highly recommend using them to enrich the timbre, and sonic character of the library. I'm getting great results so far.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## justthere (Jun 5, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> Do you have any audio examples to go along with your extensive methods as described in this thread?


PM’d you.


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## Ivan Duch (Jun 6, 2022)

justthere said:


> PM’d you.


Would love to listen to it myself if possible. Would be great to use as reference.


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## muziksculp (Jun 6, 2022)

justthere said:


> No. What people get that from is putting stereo things with out-of phase elements (including reverbs) into placement software.


I only use dry stereo instruments in my placement software (MIR-Pro).

Regarding out-of phase elements, how do you deal with fixing this issue when using Placement software ? i.e. when using multiple Sample Modeling Chamber Ensemble Strings Sections in MIR-Pro or other placement software ? 

Thanks.


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## wunderflo (Jun 6, 2022)

just a quick question, if I may: Am I right to assume that it'd be possible to perform quite convincing/expressive portatos of variable length & vibrato-amount with this? I'm asking, because I'm quite impressed by the BCSS short portatos I heard in the walkthrough, and wasn't really able to replicate them with my existing libraries (with or without sordino - it doesn't have to be con sordino). Yet, I'd prefer to get a more versatile library for being able to perform such portatos, because I'm not too interested in the rest of BCSS.


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## muziksculp (Jun 6, 2022)

wunderflo said:


> just a quick question, if I may: Am I right to assume that it'd be possible to perform quite convincing/expressive portatos of variable length & vibrato-amount with this? I'm asking, because I'm quite impressed by the BCSS short portatos I heard in the walkthrough, and wasn't really able to replicate them with my existing libraries (with or without sordino - it doesn't have to be con sordino). Yet, I'd prefer to get a more versatile library for being able to perform such portatos, because I'm not too interested in the rest of BCSS.


Yes, this library has a dedicated Portato articulation via keyswitch, and Yes, you can perform it with vibrato, and be expressive.


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## Fa (Jun 6, 2022)

wunderflo said:


> just a quick question, if I may: Am I right to assume that it'd be possible to perform quite convincing/expressive portatos of variable length & vibrato-amount with this? I'm asking, because I'm quite impressed by the BCSS short portatos I heard in the walkthrough, and wasn't really able to replicate them with my existing libraries (with or without sordino - it doesn't have to be con sordino). Yet, I'd prefer to get a more versatile library for being able to perform such portatos, because I'm not too interested in the rest of BCSS.


What is nice with this library is that you may mix length and expression in a seamless continuous: you don't have to take the samples "as they are" (short, mid, long, soft, more vibrato etc.) getting crazy and accepting the repetitive pattern: you may sculpt your expression note by note if you want, or use shortcuts to get variation (as simple as changing MIDI duration and velocity) then take the amount and/or intensity&speed of vibrato you want with the relative CC controllers.

The outcome is in your control, not dictated by the library samples set.


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## justthere (Jun 6, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Regarding out-of phase elements, how do you deal with fixing this issue when using Placement software ? i.e. when using multiple Sample Modeling Chamber Ensemble Strings Sections in MIR-Pro or other placement software ?


First thing is try not to use things that have inherent phase issues. 😁 but if you are looking to, say, layer two chamber sections coming from the same position on the stage, I would suggest de-tuning them slightly from each other, and *not* putting them in the same place - and the delay you get from putting one further away (like a second row) may not be enough, but you can always just insert a short delay after the second one, say 10ms. And also verify that there aren’t any early reflections from SM strings - turn them to 0.


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## muziksculp (Jun 6, 2022)

justthere said:


> First thing is try not to use things that have inherent phase issues. 😁 but if you are looking to, say, layer two chamber sections coming from the same position on the stage, I would suggest de-tuning them slightly from each other, and *not* putting them in the same place - and the delay you get from putting one further away (like a second row) may not be enough, but you can always just insert a short delay after the second one, say 10ms. And also verify that there aren’t any early reflections from SM strings - turn them to 0.


OK. Appreciate it. 

Thanks for the tips.


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## muziksculp (Jun 6, 2022)

Fa said:


> What is nice with this library is that you may mix length and expression in a seamless continuous: you don't have to take the samples "as they are" (short, mid, long, soft, more vibrato etc.) getting crazy and accepting the repetitive pattern: you may sculpt your expression note by note if you want, or use shortcuts to get variation (as simple as changing MIDI duration and velocity) then take the amount and/or intensity&speed of vibrato you want with the relative CC controllers.
> 
> The outcome is in your control, not dictated by the library samples set.


Yes, one of the reasons I find this library so special, and love using it. I can mold it to my needs, not the other way around.  It is very flexible, and can offer so many variations, and ways to work with, the only downside is the learning curve.


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## muziksculp (Jun 6, 2022)

Hi,

Continuing my Sample Modeling Strings discovery, and experimentation journey. Here is another short track. I'm using three Chamber Vlns 1 sections, set to the 'smallest' size ensemble in each. I have them hosted in MIR-Pro, Synchron Stage A, for placement, and ERs, VSS3 for reverb tail. A bit of EQ, and Limiting on the Master buss, and some Analog Pre-Amp and EQ Plugins.

The Piano is Noire by NI. The Chamber Strings Vlns are playing the melodic line in unison. There are no other strings to add the strings harmony. Mainly to clearly show how the 3 X Vlns 1 Chamber Strings Ensembles sound. I love the delicate, and detailed string ensemble quality I'm getting here, and the subtle yet expressive vibrato. I could spend more time improving the performances, but I think for a test like this I don't want to spend too much time on it. 

Let me know your thoughts about this. I'm happy to share more info. about it.

View attachment Sample Modeling 3 X Chmbr Vlns Melodic Test.mp3



Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Zanshin (Jun 6, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Let me know your thoughts about this. I'm happy to share more info. about it.


Sounds great to me 

Aside from the initial setup, how much tweaking are you doing to the midi? What are you controlling in RT?


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## wunderflo (Jun 6, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Let me know your thoughts about this. I'm happy to share more info. about it.


wow, it' absolutely amazing! I love it. Great melody and such an emotional performance.


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## muziksculp (Jun 6, 2022)

Hi,

Thanks for the positive comments. I really appreciate your feedback.

As I mentioned, this library is full of surprises for those who take the extra step to experiment with it.

There is a lot it can deliver, and almost endless possibilities. It's surely not your traditional strings library, and that's the first thing that attracted me to it. The Sample Modeling Development team has an amazing vision, that has so much to offer, but it is not your traditional library, where you select an articulation, and begin to play, this is a different beast.

I wish they had their own player, instead of Kontakt, that's something I really feel this library will benefit from. But that's something that I feel is up to them to evaluate, and see if they can invest into their own player.

The demo I posted uses some heavy CPU consuming plugins, which did a very good job at enhancing the overall timbre of these strings, but I feel that I need to find alternative plugin options or application techniques that will be less CPU entinsive, i.e. routing the ensembles to a dedicated bus, and applying the plugins to that bus, instead to each instance of Kontakt.

I will be posting more audio demos of this fantastic library, in the near future. Sample Modeling Strings is so special, I wish they would consider developing Solo Woodwinds as well, they already have solo Brass. Why not continue with Solo Woodwinds. I think they would be amazing !

Cheers
Muziiksculp


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## justthere (Jun 7, 2022)

Any engine they make would (I hope) have more swarm-emulating in there. I imagine that’s some of what they are working on.


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## muziksculp (Jun 7, 2022)

justthere said:


> Any engine they make would (I hope) have more swarm-emulating in there. I imagine that’s some of what they are working on.


I have no clue if they are working on their own engine, but if they are that is a big step forward for them. Kontakt is imho. not the optimal engine for their product. It's even quite heavy on CPU usage for me when using multiple instances of the strings.


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## Bollen (Jun 7, 2022)

justthere said:


> Any engine they make would (I hope) have more swarm-emulating in there. I imagine that’s some of what they are working on.


Speaking as a saxophone player I hope not... The original "Brothers" sounded so much better than the later SWAM saxes...


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## muziksculp (Jun 7, 2022)

Hi,

Here is a comparison of the SM Vlns 1. 

The first version is using SM Strings 3 X Chamber Vlns 1 (hosted in MIR-Pro/Synchron Stage A). 

The second version is using SM Strings, Ensemble Vlns 1 (hosted in MIR-Pro/Synchron Stage A). 

This will allow you to hear the difference between them, and imho. the first one with 3 X Chamber Vlns1 sound more intimate, detailed, richer, and more expressive than the second version using only one instance of the Ensemble Vlns 1. 

*Ver. 1 (3 X Chamber Vlns 1)*

View attachment SM Comparison 3XEns Vls 1 .mp3



*Ver. 2 (1 X Ensemble Vlns 1)*

View attachment SM Comparison Vns 1 Ens .mp3



Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## leon chevalier (Jun 7, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I wish they would consider developing Solo Woodwinds as well


I prey every night for SM woodwinds !
🙏🥺
Other dev have shown that ww are the most suitable for the dry approach. (Vienna ww 😘) Combined with the fact that their brass are, to me, still unsurpassed after all those years, SM WW can only be an absolute win. 
I hope one day 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏


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## doctoremmet (Jun 7, 2022)

This thread keeps getting better. Thanks for doing this!


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## muziksculp (Jun 7, 2022)

leon chevalier said:


> I prey every night for SM woodwinds !
> 🙏🥺
> Other dev have shown that ww are the most suitable for the dry approach. (Vienna ww 😘) Combined with the fact that their brass are, to me, still unsurpassed after all those years, SM WW can only be an absolute win.
> I hope one day 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏


I agree 200% , I really hope they do. I remember them mentioning they don't plan to develop SM Woodwinds, maybe they want to surprise us, and make us believe they are not interested in developing WWs. but it would only make sense that they do, since they have Solo, Chamber, and Ens. Strings, and a full lineup of Brass Solo Instruments, why no Solo Woodwinds ? So, we see SM woodwinds in the future. Would love to hear from the SM developers about this.


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## muziksculp (Jun 7, 2022)

Hi,

I'm also curious what the next version/update of SM Strings would offer in terms of improvements.

The last update added 'Chamber Strings' , which imho. is a big improvement, plus some other improvements, given my recent experimenting, and experience with this library. I'm sure there are more surprises I will uncover by further experimenting with this library.

Here are my two wishes for Sample Modeling and their products :

1. To have them use their own Engine (SM-Engine), instead of using Kontakt. An SM-Engine that is more dedicated to their ways of implementing this technology, more efficient, fully scalable, with a slick, and modern looking fully scalable GUI, and much more.

2. To see Sample Modeling Solo Woodwinds developed and released in the future, using their new SM-Engine.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Bollen (Jun 7, 2022)

leon chevalier said:


> I prey every night for SM woodwinds !
> 🙏🥺
> Other dev have shown that ww are the most suitable for the dry approach. (Vienna ww 😘) Combined with the fact that their brass are, to me, still unsurpassed after all those years, SM WW can only be an absolute win.
> I hope one day 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏


Well... There's Aaronventure.... I wonder if they said they won't do them because of some contractual agreement when they split with SWAM. 🤔


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## muziksculp (Jun 7, 2022)

Bollen said:


> Well... There's Aaronventure.... I wonder if they said they won't do them because of some contractual agreement when they split with SWAM. 🤔


I hope that’s not the case here.


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## Bollen (Jun 7, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I hope that’s not the case here.


Yeah, me too...


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## justthere (Jun 7, 2022)

Bollen said:


> Speaking as a saxophone player I hope not... The original "Brothers" sounded so much better than the later SWAM saxes...


That’s two different companies.


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## sumskilz (Jun 7, 2022)

justthere said:


> That’s two different companies.


They weren’t at the time. The Audio Modeling guys were originally affiliated with Sample Modelling. They created and owned rights to the Sample Modelling saxes, which is why Sample Modelling no longer sells them.


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## leon chevalier (Jun 7, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I agree 200% , I really hope they do. I remember them mentioning they don't plan to develop SM Woodwinds, maybe they want to surprise us, and make us believe they are not interested in developing WWs. but it would only make sense that they do, since they have Solo, Chamber, and Ens. Strings, and a full lineup of Brass Solo Instruments, why no Solo Woodwinds ? So, we see SM woodwinds in the future. Would love to hear from the SM developers about this.


Yes, I've asked in the big SM strings thread and the say no. But I don't believe it ! 😄
For a sample developer updates are a lot of work and do not bring new client. And SM give their updates for free. So if you want the cash to flow it's better release new products than updates (spitfire? 😅)

That's why I only buy VI from passionate dev that do not put money first like SM or Cinematic Studio Serie (Alex ❤)

But I also do think that Sample modeling is not their main source of incomes, so I guess they are not in a hurry and prefer say no instead of dealing with passionate fans like us asking days and nights for a release date 😅


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## sislaney (Jun 8, 2022)

I am using SM Strings for my orchestral template. It needs some experimentation.For the instruments I use the ensemble strings and set the ensemble size to max. I use virtual soundstage 2 and SP2016 reverb to simulate the decca tree mic. I also layer the dry signals as close mic. Finally I layer the solo strings to add some bite. I use vss3 for reverb tail.


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## Bollen (Jun 8, 2022)

leon chevalier said:


> But I also do think that Sample modeling is not their main source of incomes


Well, I know that at least one of them is or used to be a cardiologist, so there's definitely no priority on making more libraries there.... I mean, they've been around for a long time and their output is minimal.


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## muziksculp (Jun 8, 2022)

sislaney said:


> I am using SM Strings for my orchestral template. It needs some experimentation.For the instruments I use the ensemble strings and set the ensemble size to max. I use virtual soundstage 2 and SP2016 reverb to simulate the decca tree mic. I also layer the dry signals as close mic. Finally I layer the solo strings to add some bite. I use vss3 for reverb tail.


Hi @sislaney ,

Thanks for contributing to this thread, your demo sounds wonderful, and Welcome to VI-C Forum. I noticed you are new here. Please post any future demos, tips, questions about SM Strings on this thread, and I hope you find some useful info. on this thread as well. 



sislaney said:


> I also layer the dry signals as close mic


Do you mean you are using another (Dry) instance of the same string section to layer with the one you are applying/sending to your Reverb Bus to simulate the Close Mic ? 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## sislaney (Jun 8, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @sislaney ,
> 
> Thanks for contributing to this thread, your demo sounds wonderful, and Welcome to VI-C Forum. I noticed you are new here. Please post any future demos, tips, questions about SM Strings on this thread, and I hope you find some useful info. on this thread as well.
> 
> ...


I use the same instance but with parallel processing to save cpu.


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## muziksculp (Jun 8, 2022)

sislaney said:


> I use the same instance but with parallel processing to save cpu.


Thanks.


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## leon chevalier (Jun 8, 2022)

Bollen said:


> Well, I know that at least one of them is or used to be a cardiologist, so there's definitely no priority on making more libraries there.... I mean, they've been around for a long time and their output is minimal.


Yep ! We will definitely wait 😭


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## JimDiGritz (Jun 12, 2022)

Hi everyone, I'd really love to hear any more 'hacks' to get a more expressive sound with SM.

My challenge is I don't have a breath controller and am limited to 3 faders and a pitch wheel and a set of midi pedals.

At the moment I've got:

*PitchWheel (Converted to CC): *Vibrato Intensity. Using the PW with limits means it snaps back to zero vib when released. As a _guitar _player this feels natural since you really can't pre-vibrato a string
*Fader 1: *Vibrato Rate
*Fader 2: *Dynamics
*Fader 3: *???
*Footswitch 1:* Sus (Detache)
*Footswitch 2:* ??
*Footswitch 3:* ??
*Footswitch 4:* ??

I'm also happy to compromise and have some automation (I remember @Fa mentioning using Melda MCC automation to simulate some articulations/expression - but can't find it now) Eg I'm wondering if having a small Velocity related Attack Time bump might work.

Any experience greatly appreciated!


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## I like music (Jun 12, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> Hi everyone, I'd really love to hear any more 'hacks' to get a more expressive sound with SM.
> 
> My challenge is I don't have a breath controller and am limited to 3 faders and a pitch wheel and a set of midi pedals.
> 
> ...


My personal view is that for a final product, nothing beats drawing it in. 

But then I can't play so that's why I'm biased. 

The other reason is that they respond so well to even slight adjustments, and I think those adjustments are hard to do on the fly. 

So with that said, I'd feel that what you have should be enough to basically get you "there" with an 80% performance, with the rest being tweaks? 

Maybe I've got it wholly wrong and am missing something.


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## JimDiGritz (Jun 12, 2022)

I like music said:


> My personal view is that for a final product, nothing beats drawing it in.
> 
> But then I can't play so that's why I'm biased.
> 
> ...


Thanks, for sure I'm pretty happy with the performance with just the above, however I'm still feeling like I'm missing some more nuance/variation which I could perhaps get from modulating Attack/Release/Timbre etc etc...

Ideally rather than add much more real-time complexity I'd like to some simple automation, however frankly I'm struggling to figure out whether I should say increase Attack at the start of a note, or when to add more Release...

I'll say it again - I'm 100% sure that playing in 10+ CC's with a breath controller is the way to get a hyper realistic performance, however I'd settle for some marginal gains at this point!


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## JimDiGritz (Jun 12, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> Thanks, for sure I'm pretty happy with the performance with just the above, however I'm still feeling like I'm missing some more nuance/variation which I could perhaps get from modulating Attack/Release/Timbre etc etc...
> 
> Ideally rather than add much more real-time complexity I'd like to some simple automation, however frankly I'm struggling to figure out whether I should say increase Attack at the start of a note, or when to add more Release...
> 
> I'll say it again - I'm 100% sure that playing in 10+ CC's with a breath controller is the way to get a hyper realistic performance, however I'd settle for some marginal gains at this point!


Identical MIDI (except additional CC with SM), both dry into same light Reverb Bus.

Virharmonic Bohemian Cello - Arc then Diminuendo
View attachment BC.mp3



SampleModeling Cello using just the CCs mentioned
View attachment SM.mp3


Obviously I've added some Vibrato on the SM version which seemed roughly right to me. 

If anyone can suggest how I can get closer to the Bohemian example with CC's I'd be grateful!


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## Bollen (Jun 13, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> Hi everyone, I'd really love to hear any more 'hacks' to get a more expressive sound with SM.
> 
> My challenge is I don't have a breath controller and am limited to 3 faders and a pitch wheel and a set of midi pedals.
> 
> ...


Well, like @I like music said, you should just concentrate on getting a good live performance with the basic controls first and then add nuance afterwards. I've already spoke about my recommendations above, but in a nutshell: draw little Pitch bend deviations especially around big intervals, change the vib rate according to dynamics i.e. slightly slower rate for lower dynamics (e.g. 44) and higher for forte passages (e.g. 80-86). Then use the attack knob (marcato > spiccato) to add emphasis on certain notes. It's an art, enjoy it!


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## Windbag (Jun 14, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> Identical MIDI (except additional CC with SM), both dry into same light Reverb Bus.
> 
> Virharmonic Bohemian Cello - Arc then Diminuendo
> View attachment BC.mp3
> ...


I hear a lot more dynamic variation in the VBC version - is the expression value changing much for SM? Seems like it could use more to match what you sorta get for "free" in the sample; baked in performance. Modeled instruments aren't doing any of that for you.

There is also no vibrato on the first note in #1 and noticeably automated vibrato in #2. As a fan of...restraint...when it comes to vibrato, I'd be inclined to similarly zero it for the first note, and roll on slowly (with decreased rate) for the second. 

Which actually gets at a question I have - anyone performing vibrato on these? Can you manually pitch bend in something that sounds reasonably close to the CC-summoned LFO? I've gotten spoiled by SWAM strings' performable pitch flexibility...as well as bow position and pressure control, both of which I'd be modulating were I to attempt mimicking that first clip.


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## Vardaro (Jun 15, 2022)

Hmm.. As a classical violist, I often prefer the vibrato "curve" to correspond to whole musical phrases, rather than "bulging" eacn note. We then carry the vibrato through the note changes.
It can even be interesting to to have tighter vibrato in soft notes swelling to a slower, wider vibrato as loudness increases.


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## ModalRealist (Jun 15, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> Virharmonic Bohemian Cello - Arc then Diminuendo
> your_browser_is_not_able_to_play_this_audio
> 
> 
> ...


The bow pressure (dynamics) on the Bohemian recording is doing loooooads of stuff. Lots of swelling up and back down again. Your SM recording sounds like CC1 rises linearly and then sits flat. CC1 should represent bow pressure on SM, not just general “dynamic” as with a traditional cross fading sample.

Try manually moving CC1 up and down within a range of 10 units (E.g. 30-40) at random over a whole note, and compare to simply sitting it at 30. You’ll hear the difference!

The “trouble” is that musicians don’t move their CC1 at random, they make entirely intentional shapes…

…this the better the modelled instrument, the more one must be responsible for playing them as instruments!!!

Or you can figure out what shape the performance you want has, and draw it in, but the level of attention to detail is the same.


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## Bollen (Jun 15, 2022)

Vardaro said:


> As a classical violist, I often prefer the vibrato "curve" to correspond to whole musical phrases, rather than "bulging" eacn note.


That is the ideal, but not what happens in reality... . We are of course talking of very subtle variation, on a MIDI CC level, not human accuracy wobbliness.



Vardaro said:


> It can even be interesting to to have tighter vibrato in soft notes swelling to a slower, wider vibrato as loudness increases.


That is indeed lovely! 💕


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## Windbag (Jun 15, 2022)

Vardaro said:


> Hmm.. As a classical violist, I often prefer the vibrato "curve" to correspond to whole musical phrases, rather than "bulging" eacn note. We then carry the vibrato through the note changes.
> It can even be interesting to to have tighter vibrato in soft notes swelling to a slower, wider vibrato as loudness increases.


Hence my interest in performing it in - vibrato can be something of a new frontier for us keyboard pounders, reinforced by the standard 'roll on a wheel to modulate the amplitude of a fixed oscillation' scheme we seem to have settled on (with, at best, a second CC assigned to oscillation rate). 

I have been finding that this scheme misses a lot of expressive possibility, as you're hinting at; from natural variations in rate and 'curve' shape to particular fitting to notes in a run, as well as stylistic differences between centering around the base pitch, modulating down from the base pitch (jazz/bluegrass), and even justification to other parts of a chord to some degree. 

So - I take it no one is using pitch bend for vibrato with these solo patches? Just vibrato and rate?


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## Vardaro (Jun 15, 2022)

I shall have to finish by drawing the curves, but I'm trying three fingers on three sliders on my Korg nanoKontrol2: vibrato rate, expression, and vibrato depth.


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## HCMarkus (Jun 15, 2022)

I usually apply vibrato via keyboard aftertouch; I find it an intuitive and expressive way to add vibrato to varying degrees. I use inclination (nod) with my TEControl breath controller to modulate vibrato rate. Breath controls expression. Combined, a natural feeling instrument that is very enjoyable to perform with and provides great results.


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## muziksculp (Jun 15, 2022)

HCMarkus said:


> I usually apply vibrato via keyboard aftertouch; I find it an intuitive and expressive way to add vibrato to varying degrees. I use inclination (nod) with my TEControl breath controller to modulate vibrato rate. Breath controls expression. Combined, a natural feeling instrument that is very enjoyable to perform with and provides great results.


I rarely use keyboard aftertouch for anything. So, it might be time to use it to apply vibrato. 

Hi @HCMarcus, and Thanks for the tip.  

Let's get more feedback, tips, and demos posts on this thread from SM-Solo, Chamber & Ens Strings. users. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Vardaro (Jun 16, 2022)

We can learn most about vibrato by isolating solo phrases of our favorite violinists and putting them through analyzing software. I use Intonia, which displays pitch and intensity, with spectral display if we choose interesting moments. We must ensure that the software is "tuned" to the recordings average pitch..

Edit: I analysed my own vibrato in Intonia (on my best finger..), sarting "non-vib" and growing to a wide, warm wobble. Although we are usually taught to move under the note, we actually overshoot, so I got, say, 2/3 under, 1/3 over. However, the crest of the wave was louder _and brighter _than the dip, presumably because the finger-tip is bonier than the fleshier pad, and our ear hears a pulsated version of the note, more than a wobble.

Seashore, Winkler etc found that at under 5Hz, we hear a wobble, while at over 7Hz we hear more of a single, pulsated tone. At around 12Hz (which I cannot do!) we hear a cluster! Pitch recognition must have complex time-constants!


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## mozart999uk (Jun 22, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> Continuing my Sample Modeling Strings discovery, and experimentation journey. Here is another short track. I'm using three Chamber Vlns 1 sections, set to the 'smallest' size ensemble in each. I have them hosted in MIR-Pro, Synchron Stage A, for placement, and ERs, VSS3 for reverb tail. A bit of EQ, and Limiting on the Master buss, and some Analog Pre-Amp and EQ Plugins.
> 
> ...


Nice work. Sorry if I missed this. How did you set up and play the three instances of chamber vlns in kontakt? Did you play them in separately?


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## muziksculp (Jun 22, 2022)

mozart999uk said:


> Nice work. Sorry if I missed this. How did you set up and play the three instances of chamber vlns in kontakt? Did you play them in separately?


Hi @mozart999uk , Thanks  

Yes, I used three instances of Chamber Vlns 1, I set different track delays for each instance, enabled all of them, then recorded all three by playing them together, then did a bit of CC tweaking to each one to give its own expression, vibrato, ..etc. I didn't spend too much time tweaking the CC data for this demo, but I could have if I wanted to spend more time doing it. 

This was done pretty fast, and I think you can hear how the resulting performance is quite good, I'm sure I could have made it even better if I spent more time tweaking things. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## mozart999uk (Jun 29, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @mozart999uk , Thanks
> 
> Yes, I used three instances of Chamber Vlns 1, I set different track delays for each instance, enabled all of them, then recorded all three by playing them together, then did a bit of CC tweaking to each one to give its own expression, vibrato, ..etc. I didn't spend too much time tweaking the CC data for this demo, but I could have if I wanted to spend more time doing it.
> 
> ...


Sorry for the delay. Broke my hand so haven't been able to type much (or work ). Thanks. That's really useful. They don't seem to phase much, which I thought that would 👍


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## Windbag (Jun 29, 2022)

mozart999uk said:


> Broke my hand so haven't been able to type much (or work ).


Sympathies - it sucks.


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## I like music (Jun 29, 2022)

mozart999uk said:


> Sorry for the delay. Broke my hand so haven't been able to type much (or work ). Thanks. That's really useful. They don't seem to phase much, which I thought that would 👍


At least you won't have to worry about entering live CC data!

Sorry, that was bad.

Hope it fixes quickly.


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## Denkii (Jun 29, 2022)

I like music said:


> At least you won't have to worry about entering live CC data!
> 
> Sorry, that was bad.
> 
> Hope it fixes quickly.


Left hand draws midi, breath controller handles cc1. Rest is for the weak. No time for burnout!


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## muziksculp (Jun 29, 2022)

mozart999uk said:


> Sorry for the delay. Broke my hand so haven't been able to type much (or work ). Thanks. That's really useful. They don't seem to phase much, which I thought that would 👍


Ooh.. Sorry to hear about that. I wish you a speedy healing. Just be patient, and positive.


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## mozart999uk (Jun 30, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Ooh.. Sorry to hear about that. I wish you a speedy healing. Just be patient, and positive.


Thanks 👍👍


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## Cristian Labelli (Jul 9, 2022)

*Samplemodeling SOLO Violin - General Overview (mockup + walkthrough)*

Hello everyone. 

I performed a short excerpt from the (marvelous) piece “Disney Pixar's Up - Married Life“ by Micheal Giacchino. I used the solo violin by Samplemodeling and, after the performance, you’ll find a basic tutorial on how to play the instrument, applicable to all Samplemodeling Solo Strings.  

It is focused on basic controllers:

📍1. *Velocity*: 1:11
- 1.1. Attack: 1:36
- 1.2. Transitions: 2:27
📍2. *Dynamics*: 3:49
📍3. *Vibrato*: 5:23
- 3.1. Plug&Play mode: 6:11
- 3.2. Expert mode: 6:45
📍4. *Pitch*: 7:25

A series of more detailed videos will follow. Your feedback will be greatly appreciated!

-Cristian


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## muziksculp (Jul 9, 2022)

Cristian Labelli said:


> *Samplemodeling SOLO Violin - General Overview (mockup + walkthrough)*
> 
> Hello everyone.
> 
> ...



Hi @Cristian Labelli ,

Wow .. ! Awesome  Thank You Very Much. 

I will watch the video, I'm sure it will be super helpful for all users of this library. 

Have a wonderful weekend,
Muziksculp


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## muziksculp (Jul 9, 2022)

Cristian Labelli said:


> A series of more detailed videos will follow. Your feedback will be greatly appreciated!


Thank You, and I'm super excited to watch, and learn from more detailed videos. This is wonderful. 

I will surely post feedback here.


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## HCMarkus (Jul 10, 2022)

Love the MIDI Ring for vibrato. Well done!


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## DANIELE (Jul 10, 2022)

Cristian Labelli said:


> *Samplemodeling SOLO Violin - General Overview (mockup + walkthrough)*
> 
> Hello everyone.
> 
> ...



Very informative video. Well done! I like the mood and it is crystal clear.

Also, great picture of Dr. Giorgio!


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## Mojo X (Jul 11, 2022)

What type of midi ring is used in the video?


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## muziksculp (Jul 11, 2022)

Mojo X said:


> What type of midi ring is used in the video?


The Ring he is using is made by a French company called Enhancia, the Ring is called the Neova Ring.

I think the company decided to go out of business just a few months ago. Too bad, I think they didn't get enough sales of this wonderful Ring controller. Kind of a bummer. They have their software part of it available as an open-source for future development, and compatibility.

I have their Neova Ring, and love using it mainly for playing vibrato into virtual instruments in real time, it makes the vibrato sound so much more realistic, compared to any built-in vibrato in virtual instruments.

Here is a pic of my Neova Ring in its dock. All Green LEDs are ON, which indicates it is being charged by the dock unit.

I think you can still buy one used, since the company doesn't exist.


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## Cristian Labelli (Jul 12, 2022)

Mojo X said:


> What type of midi ring is used in the video?


For those who ask about the MIDI ring:
yes, I used the NEOVA ring (thanks @muziksculp for the details  )
A good product, anyway, could be the Genki MIDI ring. It has the same features as the NEOVA ring and probabily something more. I still have to try it, but it's definitely promising.


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## Fa (Jul 12, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> The Ring he is using is made by a French company called Enhancia, the Ring is called the Neova Ring.
> 
> I think the company decided to go out of business just a few months ago. Too bad, I think they didn't get enough sales of this wonderful Ring controller. Kind of a bummer. They have their software part of it available as an open-source for future development, and compatibility.
> 
> ...


Actually it seems it is still distributed by Roland. Quite expensive compared to some previous promo-prices in e-stores, almost all of them out of stock now. But at the higher price still available, just surf the web for it (e.g. Amazon).


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## muziksculp (Jul 12, 2022)

Fa said:


> Actually it seems it is still distributed by Roland. Quite expensive compared to some previous promo-prices in e-stores, almost all of them out of stock now. But at the higher price still available, just surf the web for it (e.g. Amazon).


Thanks @Fa. I have the Neova Ring.

I wonder if Roland, or another developer might want to take over this product to keep it in production ?


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## Fa (Jul 12, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Thanks @Fa. I have the Neova Ring.
> 
> I wonder if Roland, or another developer might want to take over this product to keep it in production ?


Not sure if they had a stock (they were distributing it as an OEM before), or they can source it from the (very likely outsourced) manufacturer. 

No idea, but the message for anybody interested was that it's still possible to buy it.

(personally I prefer using XY and XYZ pads instead, but that's a matter of technical choices and performance style)


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## dainiak (Jul 12, 2022)

Fa said:


> Not sure if they had a stock (they were distributing it as an OEM before), or they can source it from the (very likely outsourced) manufacturer.
> 
> No idea, but the message for anybody interested was that it's still possible to buy it.
> 
> (personally I prefer using XY and XYZ pads instead, but that's a matter of technical choices and performance style)


Sounds interesting. What XYZ pads would you recommend? Of the currently produced outboard gear I can only recall ROLI Lightpad Block so far, but am in search of something closer to Sensel Morph in feeling.


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## Fa (Jul 12, 2022)

dainiak said:


> Sounds interesting. What XYZ pads would you recommend? Of the currently produced outboard gear I can only recall ROLI Lightpad Block so far, but am in search of something closer to Sensel Morph in feeling.


Never had the chance of testing Sensel Morph (I was tempted to buy it, but I wasn't 100% convinced of the application to dynamic+vibrato need I had, due to the surface dimension and shape, and price was serious...) then I can't make a comparison.

I'm using both the Korg Nanopad 2 and the ROLI Block, and I find the ROLI excellent to mix 3 axis, and accurate enough (even if Z is a bit gummy and tend to be slightly ON/OFF because of the pressure hard to mitigate when you are moving the XY axis together). I use it when I really need to play with vibrato rate (e.g. romantic solo strings) so using cc11, cc1 and cc19.

But Nanopad has several advantages (smaller surface, more slippery and light touch) even if slightly less accurate and obviously it has XY only. Last but not least it's quite inexpensive, while ROLI is not cheap at all (to be fair because it's a lot more solid and sophisticated by the way).

It's incredible how good samplemodeling instruments sound with the Nanopad (cc11 and cc1), and IMVHO dynamics made with pad are better for strings, while breath controller is obviously quite ok for winds/brass.


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## HCMarkus (Jul 12, 2022)

Fa said:


> It's incredible how good samplemodeling instruments sound with the Nanopad (cc11 and cc1), and IMVHO dynamics made with pad are better for strings, while breath controller is obviously quite ok for winds/brass.


I certainly respect your opinion, but am still completely enamored with using BC for Winds AND Strings! I've been using Atertouch for Vibrato Depth, but am currently experimenting with a foot controller, and using a Nod Gesture with my 4-D TEC BC for Vibrato Speed. Gonna' try swapping Depth and Speed assignments, too.

The only problem with BC Strings for me is running out of air in long passages, but a quick post-record edit makes for an easy fix.


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## Trash Panda (Jul 12, 2022)

dainiak said:


> Sounds interesting. What XYZ pads would you recommend? Of the currently produced outboard gear I can only recall ROLI Lightpad Block so far, but am in search of something closer to Sensel Morph in feeling.


MusiKraken!


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## muziksculp (Jul 12, 2022)

With regards to X-Y Pads, I'm hoping that the next Metagrid Pro update will offer an X-Y Pad CC configuration.

Hopefully they can get this to happen, so far they only have a one-dimensional CC controller option possible in Metagrid Pro. I use Metagrid Pro with an iPad Pro.

I have the Roli Lightpad, but do not like it, very sluggish, especially the Z dimension is a pain to use.


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## Fa (Jul 13, 2022)

HCMarkus said:


> I certainly respect your opinion, but am still completely enamored with using BC for Winds AND Strings! I've been using Atertouch for Vibrato Depth, but am currently experimenting with a foot controller, and using a Nod Gesture with my 4-D TEC BC for Vibrato Speed. Gonna' try swapping Depth and Speed assignments, too.
> 
> The only problem with BC Strings for me is running out of air in long passages, but a quick post-record edit makes for an easy fix.


I get your point, and I often use BC with strings, but what I find (at least with my stuff and my style, perhaps exacerbated by my background of oboe and cornett player) is that the attack shape and dynamic envelope of wind and bow are so different, that is quite natural and easy to reproduce wind attack with... wind  but it's quite difficult to replicate all the acceleration nuances of strings bow with breath: it always tend to be a bit too much binary, from explosive to fluffy, while all the different bow gestures are super easy to replicate with a pad just moving your finger the way and the speed the bow should move... from that I sourced my personal opinion.


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## Fa (Jul 13, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> With regards to X-Y Pads, I'm hoping that the next Metagrid Pro update will offer an X-Y Pad CC configuration.
> 
> Hopefully they can get this to happen, so far they only have a one-dimensional CC controller option possible in Metagrid Pro. I use Metagrid Pro with an iPad Pro.
> 
> I have the Roli Lightpad, but do not like it, very sluggish, especially the Z dimension is a pain to use.


Yes, I agree on the Z dimension, being the main weakness of the system (that's why I use Z for cc1 vibrato depth, while X is cc11 dynamic and Y is cc19 rate): using Z for fine control is not convenient.

About smartphones and tablets, I tested tons of XY apps, but beside the lag/latency issues that probably modern hardware is minimizing, I got my finger in trouble moving fast and continuously on the glass (from not enough contact to excessive and painful attrition). 

Again I suppose that progress is helping: the surface of the iPad Pro (assuming you don't cover it with protections) is very slippery and precise, then it's worth to try... thank you for the reminder!


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## muziksculp (Jul 13, 2022)

Fa said:


> Yes, I agree on the Z dimension, being the main weakness of the system (that's why I use Z for cc1 vibrato depth, while X is cc11 dynamic and Y is cc19 rate): using Z for fine control is not convenient.


@Fa ,

I haven't tried this combo setting on the Roli Lightpad, I will give it a try. Thanks for the tip.


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## DANIELE (Jul 13, 2022)

Fa said:


> Not sure if they had a stock (they were distributing it as an OEM before), or they can source it from the (very likely outsourced) manufacturer.
> 
> No idea, but the message for anybody interested was that it's still possible to buy it.
> 
> (personally I prefer using XY and XYZ pads instead, but that's a matter of technical choices and performance style)


The problem with no more supported hardware is the software, not the hardware itself. Here in Italy the Neova ring is still available at a pretty medium-high price but if I buy it now maybe in the future I will not be able to use it anymore due to lack of driver updates. This is what I fear more in buying hardware.

I'd like to try it but I'm not a skilled player and the price is too high just to buy it and use it maybe two or three times.
The idea to perform vibrato is tickling me anyway.


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## muziksculp (Jul 13, 2022)

There is this one as well. I don't have it, or know much about it, but it did get quite a bit of publicity.

https://www.expressivee.com/1-touche

I wonder if there are any *Touche Controller* users here ?


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## dainiak (Jul 14, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> There is this one as well. I don't have it, or know much about it, but it did get quite a bit of publicity.
> 
> https://www.expressivee.com/1-touche
> 
> I wonder if there are any *Touche Controller* users here ?


I have a Touché SE (which is the same as Touché without midi port and hardware preset saving). The feel is pretty unique in that you can both do percussive gestures as well as fluid gestures. As powerful as a breath controller in that regard. Even more so in percussive dimension I think as soon as you are into fast tapping. But the range of CC values within which you have a super-precise tactile control is narrower than on sliders or XY-pads due to non-linearity of the pressure. Well, again I would say this is close to the feeling of using a breath controller. To a great favor of Touché is does at times feel like a physical musical instrument rather than yet another controller.


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## muziksculp (Jul 14, 2022)

dainiak said:


> But the range of CC values within which you have a super-precise tactile control is narrower than on sliders or XY-pads due to non-linearity of the pressure


Thank You for the feedback about the Touche-SE. 

Doesn't the software to control the Touche-SE allow you to change the response curve for the various gestures, and/or the range of values it will transmit ?


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## dainiak (Jul 14, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Thank You for the feedback about the Touche-SE.
> 
> Doesn't the software to control the Touche-SE allow you to change the response curve for the various gestures, and/or the range of values it will transmit ?


Sure it does A thing I definitely find useful is adjusting velocity curves for virtual pianos and drums/percussive instruments in general. It might be the problem with me that I still never considered Touché to be an equivalent to sliders/XY-pads, as if I introduce some fancy response curve the device loses physicality for me in fluid playing style. Well, some immediate correspondence between how I expect physical material that I touch to behave and how it actually behaves. Bowing a violin might not be the most _convenient_ way to play it, but this is how physics works and so violinists have to adapt I’m staying a bit conservative in this manner, trying to use every midi controller that I own within what I feel to be some natural limits or, one might say _natural features_.


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## muziksculp (Jul 14, 2022)

dainiak said:


> Sure it does A thing I definitely find useful is adjusting velocity curves for virtual pianos and drums/percussive instruments in general. It might be the problem with me that I still never considered Touché to be an equivalent to sliders/XY-pads, as if I introduce some fancy response curve the device loses physicality for me in fluid playing style. Well, some immediate correspondence between how I expect physical material that I touch to behave and how it actually behaves. Bowing a violin might not be the most _convenient_ way to play it, but this is how physics works and so violinists have to adapt I’m staying a bit conservative in this manner, trying to use every midi controller that I own within what I feel to be some natural limits or, one might say _natural features_.


I totally understand your point. 

I have been experimenting with multiple controller options, each has its strengths, and weaknesses, none is perfect for everything.


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## DANIELE (Jul 14, 2022)

The problem with controllers like Touche is that you have to use one dedicated hand for them. Controllers like Breat Controller or the Ring one let you use both hands for the piano while you control a lot of parameters.


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## Bruhelius (Jul 18, 2022)

Here is one of my compositions where I blended some of the Sample Modeling Strings with Audio Modeling Strings, along with Noteperformer's woodwinds, brass and percs... I would be curious to hear some feedback on the realism aspect.


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## Markrs (Jul 18, 2022)

Bruhelius said:


> Here is one of my compositions where I blended some of the Sample Modeling Strings with Audio Modeling Strings, along with Noteperformer's woodwinds, brass and percs... I would be curious to hear some feedback on the realism aspect.


It is really nice composition, the agility of some of the instruments is great, but it still sounds thin and lacking the body you get with samples, it also feels like there is a lack of micro fluctuations in pitch and tone, so they have a slight sterile sound.

That is being picky, as it is really nice and most people listening to it would probably not notice these things.


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## Vardaro (Aug 2, 2022)

I like it too, but on VI-Control, we (and our customers?) are not "most people"!


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## Bruhelius (Aug 2, 2022)

Here is an updated version, i realized that I had forgotten to switch on the pitch imperfections LFO, also I got rid of some hanging notes and other artifacts, added up the tracks in MIR Pro D:


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## Giorgio Tommasini (Aug 2, 2022)

Bruhelius said:


> Here is an updated version, i realized that I had forgotten to switch on the pitch imperfections LFO, also I got rid of some hanging notes and other artifacts, added up the tracks in MIR Pro D:



it sounds excellent to me. Bravissimo!


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## Cristian Labelli (Aug 9, 2022)

Samplemodeling Strings - Tutorial n.1 (Default Attacks: Velocity, cc26 and cc25)​Hi everybody
As promised, we’re working on the production of new tutorials on the strings.
This is the link to the first one, concerning the management of default attacks, focused on Note Velocity, CC26 Attack-Time and CC25 Velocity To Dynamics.
Feedback will be greatly appreciated so that we can improve video after video. 

Cristian


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## DANIELE (Aug 9, 2022)

Cristian Labelli said:


> Samplemodeling Strings - Tutorial n.1 (Default Attacks: Velocity, cc26 and cc25)​Hi everybody
> As promised, we’re working on the production of new tutorials on the strings.
> This is the link to the first one, concerning the management of default attacks, focused on Note Velocity, CC26 Attack-Time and CC25 Velocity To Dynamics.
> Feedback will be greatly appreciated so that we can improve video after video.
> ...



Great tutorial, well done.

About the specific argument it would be interesting to see how these parameters work together and how to use them to shape the attack.


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## Virtual Virgin (Aug 9, 2022)

Any tips on the best computer build to run SM Strings? I'm guessing high single-core benchmarks are important here. What about RAM speed? Anyone use DDR5 RAM yet with SM Strings?


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## justthere (Aug 9, 2022)

Cristian Labelli said:


> Samplemodeling Strings - Tutorial n.1 (Default Attacks: Velocity, cc26 and cc25)​Hi everybody
> As promised, we’re working on the production of new tutorials on the strings.
> This is the link to the first one, concerning the management of default attacks, focused on Note Velocity, CC26 Attack-Time and CC25 Velocity To Dynamics.
> Feedback will be greatly appreciated so that we can improve video after video.
> ...


So to clarify: when CC25 is set to 0, dynamics are set to be controlled by incoming CC11. If one is in breath controller mode, however, does that change to CC2?


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## stigbn (Aug 9, 2022)

Bruhelius said:


> Here is an updated version, i realized that I had forgotten to switch on the pitch imperfections LFO, also I got rid of some hanging notes and other artifacts, added up the tracks in MIR Pro D:



I'm sorry if I missed something in this thread, but what are your 'pitch imperfections LFO' is it a plugin you use?


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## JSTube (Aug 9, 2022)

Virtual Virgin said:


> Any tips on the best computer build to run SM Strings? I'm guessing high single-core benchmarks are important here. What about RAM speed? Anyone use DDR5 RAM yet with SM Strings?


They're not that demanding. I have a chromebook which runs them just fine. And a 12 year old computer with DDR3 memory that does it just fine as well. They run just fine on every computer I've ran them on.

"The best computer to run SM Strings" -- this isn't Crysis.

Build the best computer you can afford. Most modern CPUs are more than enough for SM strings. Buy the latest and greatest RAM? In the audio world, imo -- that's a waste of money.

But RAM depends on how much your workflow is ram-heavy. If you don't know, yourself, then maybe that might be worth figuring out. But buying 128 GB DDR5 ram isn't going to be any better for SM strings than 4GB of DDR -- anything. Notice they don't specify? That's because ram speed hasn't mattered in a real-world setting for a long time... If you're a video gamer, too, then build something that will play your most demanding game, and tailor the build to that instead, and it be more than enough for audio production, trust me.

From the Sample Modeling website:

System requirements​ 
Samplemodeling Solo, Chamber & Ensemble Strings provide unprecedented realism and expressiveness. However, it’s a demanding software in terms of CPU load. *An up-to-date, multiple-core PC, Intel Core i7 or equivalent, 4 GB RAM, Windows 7, 8 or 10 (latest Service Pack), or Mac OS 10.13, 10.14, 10.15, 11, I5 (current update) is recommended. Less powerful systems may also prove satisfactory, but may require larger buffer sizes, involving higher latencies, and may reduce the number of simultaneously playable instruments.*


A good quality audio hardware with suitable low latency drivers (ASIO for the PC) is required. Recommended buffer sizes may range from 128 (low-latency, hight CPU load) to 512 samples (higher latency, but less CPU load).


A master keyboard with some configurable MIDI controllers, pitchwheel, modwheel, and an expression pedal (or breath controller) is required for real time playing. Virtually any type of windcontroller can also be used to play this instrument. If real time playing is not contemplated (you will miss some great fun though), using a sequencer may obviate the need for several physical midi controllers, by manually drawing controller data to the MIDI tracks while maintaining full control of the instrument's expressiveness. The Strings have been thoroughly tested on several common sequencers, like Cubase, Logic & Reaper. Some excellent MIDI demos are downloadable from the Strings demo page.


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## Virtual Virgin (Aug 9, 2022)

JSTube said:


> They're not that demanding. I have a chromebook which runs them just fine. And a 12 year old computer with DDR3 memory that does it just fine as well. They run just fine on every computer I've ran them on.
> 
> "The best computer to run SM Strings" -- this isn't Crysis.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry but you are simply wrong on multiple counts. I don't know under what circumstances you have been using SM strings, but they have always been a limiting factor in my template running mostly SM and SWAM instruments on an i7 7700K. Doing mock-ups with full orchestration the SM String instances are what will choke the project, even at higher buffer sizes.

From my tests, 9 instances of SM Strings with medium size ensembles, playing 16th notes scales along with incoming MIDI on 15 CCs yielded 92% CPU peaks with audible audio crackles at a 128 buffer size (interface is Presonus Quantum2). That is with all other tracks disabled, so SM Strings only. 

If you think DDR5 has no implications for pro audio, think again:
There are huge jumps in polyphony from DDR4 to DDR5-


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## JSTube (Aug 9, 2022)

Virtual Virgin said:


> If you think DDR5 has no implications for pro audio, think again:
> There are huge jumps in polyphony from DDR4 to DDR5-


That's only true for sample-based streaming-from-ram instruments, so no, I'm not wrong [_on any counts_] -- my opinion was that buying the latest and greatest ram for audio is overkill. Some may disagree, and feel the need to post ridiculous benchmarks like that one in order to somehow find disagreement in a place where there is none.

Sample Modeling fully loaded only takes like 5 GB of ram... so what are you talking about? The brass RAM takes significantly less so. Who here is going to be running e.g. with <8gb of ram or something? My M1 doesn't tap out with Sample Modeling even at lower buffer sizes and with all of the (solo, chamber, and ensemble) presets loaded simultaneously -- _having more than enough CPU and RAM left over for brass and percussion samples, convolution, and algorithmic reverbs_. I'm running an M1 Mini with 16 GB ram, btw.

You're giving benchmarks (questionably relevant ones at best) in a context that's not even relevant to this -- running a bunch of Kontakt libraries for example. Yeah you're gonna want the fastest memory in that case. In this one, modeled instruments that aren't heavy on ram -- *it doesn't matter*.



Virtual Virgin said:


> If you think DDR5 has no implications for pro audio, think again:



Also, don't put words in my mouth. I did not say that. I said DDR5 is a waste of money in my opinion, unless you play video games, too, on your machine where you do pro audio -- where fast loading, to the CPU, of _samples/data stored in the memory_ is once again, a concern. *[not nearly so much the case with modeled instruments; sort of relevant here in the realm of *sample* modeling -- but we've already addressed it's less than 6GB of samples for the entire library -- compare that to any other string library someone here may be running and you can easily see how they're significantly less ram-dependent for performance]

SWAM is never going to bottleneck the memory to be an issue. It will very quickly put ANY CPU on its knees if you load up enough instances of it. I personally haven't heard of people that run hundreds of instances of SWAM successfully. Kontakt on the other hand, many people do it on very humble hardware.

I don't consider 5GB or 6GB for an entire string ensemble (the amount of samples in Sample Modeling) -- fully loaded to ram -- to be that much, especially compared to modern libraries with tons of round robins and 5x different mic positions..

If you're using SWAM+SampleModeling, that's always gonna suck, man. The SWAM ones are super inefficient and heavy computationally. They're complete physical models so they're going to be heavy.

If your CPU is tapping out, then you should probably bounce those tracks to PCM audio for headroom, or buy a CPU with more cores.



Virtual Virgin said:


> I'm sorry but you are simply wrong on multiple counts. I don't know under what circumstances you have been using SM strings, but they have always been a limiting factor in my template running mostly SM and SWAM instruments on an i7 7700K. Doing mock-ups with full orchestration the SM String instances are what will choke the project, even at higher buffer sizes.


You don't need to be sorry. Your CPU choked out on a modeled instrument. No surprise there. It wasn't your RAM that was the bottleneck, in other words.

Nobody said Sample Modeling was not heavy on the CPU. For a modeled instrument, it's quite RAM heavy for what it is, but still less so than any of its fully-sample based counterparts, and I couldn't see RAM in the context of Sample Modeling being a concern for anyone that was already running various orchestral Kontakt libraries. The performance benefit from DDR5 for Sample Modeling isn't going to be the same benefit that you'd see for the latter case of various Kontakt instruments, all of which are entirely streamed.

P.S. since you mentioned polyphony -- what about the fact that the aim of modeled ensembles is to literally _save on polyphony by using minimal midi tracks_ for an entire ensemble? Sample Modeling strings are all monophonic with the exception of bichords -- polyphony isn't really of concern here.

I'd urge OP to invest in the best CPU with the most cores available for their money, rather than worry about having the 'conceptually faster memory' - but that's just me. One is going to make an obvious difference. The other, not so much.

_@Virtual Virgin (Really, your 7,000 note tuttis as your benchmark implies -- come up THAT often? What kind of counterpoint species is that?)_


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## Virtual Virgin (Aug 9, 2022)

"If you're using SWAM+SampleModeling, that's always gonna suck, man. The SWAM ones are super inefficient and heavy computationally. They're complete physical models so they're going to be heavy."

Wrong again.
I ran the same battery of test on every VSTi plugin type I work with. 
The entire SWAM WW ensemble used in my template fared much better than SM Strings-
1 piccolo, 3 flutes, 3 oboes, 1 english horn, 3 clarinets, 1 bass clarinet, 3 bassoons and 1 contrabassoon totaling 16 instances playing back the some MIDI files as the SM Strings:

SWAM WW (16 instances):
buffer 256 - 40-50% CPU - 14% Memory 
buffer 128 - 50% CPU -
buffer 64 - 60-70% CPU 

SM Brass (14 instances):
buffer 256 - 35-50% CPU- 14% Memory
buffer 128 - 50-70% CPU
buffer 64 - 70-85% CPU

SM Strings (9 instances):
buffer 256 - 60-70% CPU - 16% Memory
buffer 128 - 75-85% CPU
buffer 64 - 100% CPU (audio freeze)

Computationally, the SWAM WWs are less demanding of the CPU given their proportion in my template. 

This is why I asked about single-core performance as presumably multi-core is less efficient distributing CPU workloads from DAWs.

I ask about DDR5, not for more RAM space, but speed. That 16% of RAM can choke up the CPU *based on the time it takes to get to the CPU*. I'm looking into reports that higher clock rate and lower CAS latency have a noticeable effect on lowering the achievable audio buffer size.


----------



## Virtual Virgin (Aug 9, 2022)

Virtual Virgin said:


> "If you're using SWAM+SampleModeling, that's always gonna suck, man. The SWAM ones are super inefficient and heavy computationally. They're complete physical models so they're going to be heavy."
> 
> Wrong again.
> I ran the same battery of test on every VSTi plugin type I work with.
> ...


----------



## JSTube (Aug 9, 2022)

SWAM WW aren't modeled though, they're sample-based (check the sizes of the instruments vs the strings which are 100% modeled), so again, you're comparing apples and oranges.

Yeah they're less demanding -- they're not true models! We were talking about strings, which _are_ full models, and then you changed it to WW to insist you were, in fact, correct. When you did that, you changed the benchmarks to support your claim without mentioning that _one fact_ about the *fundamental design difference between how those two work.*

Each time I make a claim, you switch to the opposite designed instrument (sampled vs modeled), and say that I'm incorrect, always with a pretty picture or set of numbers to back you up. Or flat-out hyperbolize what I said and forge an argument against that hyperbolized edition.

You're treating these as they exist in a vacuum, when they all give very different performances and have unique sets of hardware requirements.. that should tell you something, that they are in fact, different from one another.

SWAM Violins are the most computationally heavy. Then comes the brass, which use more CPU and have some sample-based, but not so much as the woodwinds. Then there's the woodwinds of SWAM which are the most sample-dependent and less CPU-hungry of the bunch. Those are the ones which are most similar in design and principle to Sample Modeling strings. I think they both even use the same harmonic alignment technology, but don't quote me ..


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## Virtual Virgin (Aug 9, 2022)

JSTube said:


> SWAM WW aren't modeled though, they're sample-based (check the sizes of the instruments vs the strings which are 100% modeled), so again, you're comparing apples and oranges.
> 
> Yeah they're less demanding -- they're not true models! We were talking about strings, which _are_ full models, and then you changed it to WW to insist you were, in fact, correct. When you did that, you changed the benchmarks to support your claim without mentioning that _one fact_ about the *fundamental design difference between how those two work.*
> 
> ...





JSTube said:


> SWAM WW aren't modeled though, they're sample-based (check the sizes of the instruments vs the strings which are 100% modeled), so again, you're comparing apples and oranges.
> 
> Yeah they're less demanding -- they're not true models! We were talking about strings, which _are_ full models, and then you changed it to WW to insist you were, in fact, correct. When you did that, you changed the benchmarks to support your claim without mentioning that _one fact_ about the *fundamental design difference between how those two work.*
> 
> ...


You are not listening or helping. Your accusations are asinine. Blocked. Bye.


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## zigzag (Aug 9, 2022)

I may be wrong, but it might be convolution reverb that is most computationally heavy in SM.

Manual says that setting CC29 to zero sets the early reflection convolution in a bypass mode and decreases CPU load. However, it doesn't specifically say that for ambience IRs, but I assume setting CC34 to zero also sets ambience convolution reverb in a bypass mode.

You could try running tests with ER and ambience convolution reverbs disabled.


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## DANIELE (Aug 9, 2022)

I run a pretty heavy load of SM Strings together with many other instruments with a BS of 256 without having an issue on my CPU. I never had one.

I have a pretty good CPU with many cores but maybe there is something that is chocking yours. Some settings. Maybe the number of cores too is the key to have good performances.


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## zigzag (Aug 10, 2022)

i7 7700K only has 4 cores. Multiple Kontakt instances are running in parallel, so you would benefit the most from a higher core count.


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## DANIELE (Aug 10, 2022)

zigzag said:


> i7 7700K only has 4 cores. Multiple Kontakt instances are running in parallel, so you would benefit the most from a higher core count.


I didn't remember 7700K has only 4 cores. I definitely quote this post. This is the main issue here.

It isn't a matter of core frequency but more a matter of core count. Try with a CPU with at least 8 cores and you will see a really big improvement.


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## justthere (Aug 10, 2022)

JSTube said:


> P.S. since you mentioned polyphony -- what about the fact that the aim of modeled ensembles is to literally _save on polyphony by using minimal midi tracks_ for an entire ensemble? Sample Modeling strings are all monophonic with the exception of bichords -- polyphony isn't really of concern here.


SM is four instruments in an instance of Kontakt. One track, yes, but not a single voice. Whereas if you want a SWAM clarinet
Ensemble, that will also take up multiple voices. Not so many as building a string section instrument by instrument, but it’s still a consideration. Seems like the point made was about how much SWAM winds proportionally took up given how many instances were present, which VV provided data for. And it also sounds like VV was comparing SM CPU usage directly to the SWAM winds, which as you say are sample based as opposed to pure models like their brass and thus neither apples and oranges or comparing “in a vacuum”, but in any event that’s kind of irrelevant to the larger point of what is required to play these kinds of things back. His data for his system shows that 16 of the SWAM winds - 16 monophonic instruments - use less CPU than nine instances of SM (which use four times the number of voices).  The different VI platforms do not matter. Also, since SM strings run in Kontakt, why would it not make sense to test things running in Kontakt? I’d compare your test results to his but you didn’t provide any, which limits the credibility of your claims. You don’t need to provide any, of course; opinions are accepted here and given their just weight. 

An inquiry was presented about CAS latency and clock speed, which to me is a great point of interest - does having functionally similar latency due to double clock cycles with higher base latency have an appreciable impact on sample-streaming, positive or negative, as a result of DDR5’s increased CAS latency but higher speed? And with no offense intended, the question about RAM as posed in this reply isn’t directed at you because I’d rather have harder data and less ire - life is too brief. I have nothing at stake except my interest in keeping up with the tech for my next purchase and I’m happy to learn from almost anyone, and happy to be proven wrong if I learn something. Everything else to me is noise.


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## DANIELE (Aug 10, 2022)

justthere said:


> Everything else to me is noise.


White or Pink noise?


----------



## justthere (Aug 10, 2022)

Brown noise, increasingly.


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## PerryD (Aug 13, 2022)

An isolated part of a cue I'm working on. Samplemodeling S&ES with SM Brass. Both are dry with IKM Sunset Sound large chamber added for reverb. Strings first, then brass, then combined. No keywsitches. I hate keyswitches.  Just BC for dynamics and modwheel for vibrato.


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## PerryD (Aug 14, 2022)

PerryD said:


> An isolated part of a cue I'm working on. Samplemodeling S&ES with SM Brass. Both are dry with IKM Sunset Sound large chamber added for reverb. Strings first, then brass, then combined. No keywsitches. I hate keyswitches.  Just BC for dynamics and modwheel for vibrato.


Here is the cue with the rest of the elements. Needs a remix. :/


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## Bruhelius (Aug 17, 2022)

stigbn said:


> I'm sorry if I missed something in this thread, but what are your 'pitch imperfections LFO' is it a plugin you use?


Hi @stigbn, sorry for the late response. You can take an instance of SM strings or SWAM strings and automate the master tuning parameter. I map a MIDI CC to a detuning of zero (CC=0) to maximum of 10 cents (CC=127). Pick a detuning direction for each instance, and draw an oscillating pattern on the CC lane that basically serves as your LFO (reaper has functions for these). If you have 2 instances running (for divisi A and B), then their tuning will drift apart according to the LFO amplitude.


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## Batrawi (Aug 19, 2022)

This demo sounds INCREDIBLE! I sold my copy some time ago but I'm wondering it's time to buy it again with the improved version? I absolutely love what I'm hearing here but still not so much from what I hear in other demos... probably its the "chamber" ensemble that is the star of this update? what do you guys advise?


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## Windbag (Aug 19, 2022)

Batrawi said:


> I absolutely love what I'm hearing here but still not so much from what I hear in other demos... probably its the "chamber" ensemble that is the star of this update? what do you guys advise?


ICYMI, have a look through signore Labelli's generous breakdown of that piece in and around this post for an idea how the chamber ensembles fit into it. The isolated solos-only bit suggests to me that a good performance (lots of realtime CC and some practice) makes or breaks these instruments


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## PerryD (Aug 20, 2022)

I was trying to do some music from Conan the Barbarian from memory today. I have lots of string libraries but I honestly can't think of one that would allow me to track something like this in real time. I will probably revisit it with a better mix.


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## Batrawi (Aug 22, 2022)

I'm facing a very strange bug in studio one with SMS! the attack notes (and even legtos) sound very glitchy. Here is an audio example where I just loaded the "2nd violin chamber dry" patch and simply played some repeated notes...

View attachment SMS attack bug.mp3

some remarks:
-The issue doesn't happen in kontakt stand alone. I only face it in sutdio one
-This happens whether I play live or play back the midi
-the same glitchy sound also manifests in legato transitions
-the issue can be replicated with other patches. particularly noticeable in any "dry" patch and not just the 2nd violin chanmber patch


Edit:
-The issue seems related to the Device Block size(?). I had my studio one set to 1000+ samples but now the more I reduce this number, the more the glitch sound is less noticeable albeit still not completely gone... very strange (probably just my system enviroment)

@Giorgio Tommasini is there a certain range for sample rate/size that works best with SMS?


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## Cristian Labelli (Aug 24, 2022)

*A series of short tutorials on how to play Samplemodeling Strings *

Dear Friends, 

following the numerous requests for more tutorials helping to better understand how to use our instruments, we decided to offer a series of short tutorials as a work in progress by Cristian Labelli, with the aim of showing in detail how to shape each articulation, making proper use of velocity, controllers and keyswitches. 

These tutorials will be published in Musiksculp's "Tips, Tricks, Demos, Tutorials", but also grouped in this dedicated thread for the sake of clarity. 

📌https://vi-control.net/community/th...on-how-to-play-samplemodeling-strings.129067/

Questions and answers pertinent to each individual tutorial are welcome. We kindly request to avoid any off-topic post. 
We hope you'll find this helpful. Please note that you can conveniently access other past tutorials visiting our Tutorials page

📌 https://www.samplemodeling.com/products/stringsv2/tutorials

Your Samplemodeling Team


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## Giorgio Tommasini (Aug 24, 2022)

Batrawi said:


> I'm facing a very strange bug in studio one with SMS! the attack notes (and even legtos) sound very glitchy. Here is an audio example where I just loaded the "2nd violin chamber dry" patch and simply played some repeated notes...
> 
> View attachment SMS attack bug.mp3
> 
> ...


Batrawi,

we normally use a sample rate of 44.1 or 48.0 kHz and a buffer size of 128 - 1024.


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## Batrawi (Aug 24, 2022)

Not exactly tips and tricks, but for those who are interested in pop/rock, this guy/channel has a lot of music heavily relying on strings arrangements mostly done with SMS as I inderstood (and can tell by listeneing) from their comments! Really good for midi visual learning, and the strings sound better than anything on the market for that genre imho.


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## muziksculp (Aug 24, 2022)

Batrawi said:


> Not exactly tips and tricks, but for those who are interested in pop/rock, this guy/channel has a lot of music heavily relying on strings arrangements mostly done with SMS as I inderstood (and can tell by listeneing) from their comments! Really good for midi visual learning, and the strings sound better than anything on the market for that genre imho.



@Batrawi ,

That's a very good find. How do you know he is using SMS ? Does he mention it in the videos ? 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## Batrawi (Aug 24, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> @Batrawi ,
> 
> That's a very good find. How do you know he is using SMS ? Does he mention it in the videos ?
> 
> ...


He mentioned it in a couple of videos, and they basically sound the same in his other videos as well if you listen carefully


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## muziksculp (Aug 24, 2022)

Batrawi said:


> He mentioned it in a couple of videos, and they basically sound the same in his other videos as well if you listen carefully


I see, Thanks


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## Batrawi (Aug 25, 2022)

The sound of a realistic portamento!
To me at least, is a sound that I haven't heard in any sampled strings library to date except if it's (unintentionally?) baked in into the intervals but never available as a dedicated articulation. I'm not even sure if it has an academic term/name, but the way I hear it is as if it's played like a "hickup" rather than a straight portamento. I was frustrated this thing didn't exist in samples world despite being a second nature behavior to real musicans, until I conicidently watched this video today where Gómez demonstrated it for a few seconds @14:13 and I COULD NOT BELIEVE MYSELF THAT I FINALLY FOUND IT. Sample Modeling calls it "interrupted" portamento, but regardless what it's called, I'm just thrilled that this is something that I can and will absolutely use in my music from now on more than the regular portamento for a much more realistic and believable portamento sound. I'm even more amazed now by the complex & genius architecture that SMS is to cover such a tiny playing technique that makes a BIG difference ! Kudos to SM and Giorgo for being that insanely meticulous to bring such a tiny detail totally controllable under our fingers👌


----------



## muziksculp (Aug 29, 2022)




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## Spid (Aug 29, 2022)

Batrawi said:


> The sound of a realistic portamento!
> To me at least, is a sound that I haven't heard in any sampled strings library to date except if it's (unintentionally?) baked in into the intervals but never available as a dedicated articulation. I'm not even sure if it has an academic term/name, but the way I hear it is as if it's played like a "hickup" rather than a straight portamento. I was frustrated this thing didn't exist in samples world despite being a second nature behavior to real musicans, until I conicidently watched this video today where Gómez demonstrated it for a few seconds @14:13 and I COULD NOT BELIEVE MYSELF THAT I FINALLY FOUND IT. Sample Modeling calls it "interrupted" portamento, but regardless what it's called, I'm just thrilled that this is something that I can and will absolutely use in my music from now on more than the regular portamento for a much more realistic and believable portamento sound. I'm even more amazed now by the complex & genius architecture that SMS is to cover such a tiny playing technique that makes a BIG difference ! Kudos to SM and Giorgo for being that insanely meticulous to bring such a tiny detail totally controllable under our fingers👌



This video perfectly demonstrates that libraries such Sample Modeling (but also Audio Modeling) can have so much expression, but it also requires to use a lot of MIDI CC to control all this expressivity. But it sounds great… Maybe I should look more into breath controller so I could finally exploit my Sample Modeling Library. 

Thanks for this awesome video… it was very instructive and a nice demonstration of the capabilities of this library… so expressive. I just love it!


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## HCMarkus (Aug 29, 2022)

Spid said:


> This video perfectly demonstrates that libraries such Sample Modeling (but also Audio Modeling) can have so much expression, but it also requires to use a lot of MIDI CC to control all this expressivity. But it sounds great… Maybe I should look more into breath controller so I could finally exploit my Sample Modeling Library.
> 
> Thanks for this awesome video… it was very instructive and a nice demonstration of the capabilities of this library… so expressive. I just love it!


BC is just super. Get the TEControl unit used in the video, the one with the Bite and Tilt controls on top of Breath. It includes a very nice App that allows customization of all four axis of control, including attack and release, which are great for smoothing the data streams.


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## Spid (Aug 29, 2022)

HCMarkus said:


> BC is just super. Get the TEControl unit used in the video, the one with the Bite and Tilt controls on top of Breath. It includes a very nice App that allows customization of all four axis of control, including attack and release, which are great for smoothing the data streams.


Yeah, I checked his youtube page and I found the link to the TEControl website. It says it work for Mac, right?

I’ve heard about BC for over 2 decades now, back in the old Yamaha synthesis usable with BC… but I never got one, but the more I study all detailed libraries, the more I notice that most of the top libraries sound great, the big difference between a good music and an beginner is the level of details in controls…. Composers will spend some time to edit and fix all articulations, all nuances with MIDI CC, etc… so it would sound “realistic”. But for some libraries, there are so much details, we need more hands to control everything…. So comes the ideas of the BC


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## Windbag (Aug 30, 2022)

Spid said:


> It says it work for Mac, right?


I've had zero problems with my BBC2 on either intel or M1 macs. Given the thread, it's worth noting a minor caveat, though - without being subject to breathing intervals, string parts will [not infrequently] call for long enough sustains that you WILL run out of air. I still use it most of the time, switching to expression pedal temporarily if I need to lay down long or slow lines.

If you're thinking about the TEControl, just do it. There is something about natural realtime control that I find very difficult to reproduce editing curves after the fact; it makes the difference between performance and programming.


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## Cristian Labelli (Sep 2, 2022)

*TUTORIAL N.2 - Attack-type (cc38): Marcato and Spiccato attacks*

The second tutorial shows how to obtain different types of attacks, namely on-the-string (marcato) and off-the-string (spiccato) attacks, using CC38 (attack type).



Any feedback will be extremely appreciated


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## muziksculp (Sep 2, 2022)

Thank You Very Much @Cristian Labelli for the above video explaining how to obtain different types of attacks.  

Appreciate it.


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## sislaney (Sep 7, 2022)

Batrawi said:


> 我在带有 SMS 的工作室中遇到了一个非常奇怪的错误！起音（甚至连音）听起来非常有问题。这是一个音频示例，我刚刚加载了“第二小提琴室干”补丁并简单地播放了一些重复的音符......
> 
> View attachment SMS attack bug.mp3
> 
> ...


Same issue


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## stigbn (Oct 1, 2022)

When I use the ensemble patches and add cc lanes in Studio One (for example attack or overtones) I can see that the patch immediately writes "please synchronize ensembles" - but that's not possible while playing.
What am I doing wrong?


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## HCMarkus (Oct 1, 2022)

Spid said:


> Yeah, I checked his youtube page and I found the link to the TEControl website. It says it work for Mac, right?


Absolutely. My experience mirrors Windbag's. The TEC BC App is really good, allowing one to fine-tune the BC's parameter control to taste, including Attack and Release, which can be very useful for smoothing CC output. 

His comment re: expression pedal for long passages is on point as well. Alternately, one can do a little clean up work to connect the CC data across a breath. 

It is interesting to look at BC-generated CC data after a recording pass... so much variation, far more than one gets with just about any other MIDI controller, and so well timed to the music. Especially rewarding with Audio Modeling and Sample Modeling VIs.



Spid said:


> I’ve heard about BC for over 2 decades now, back in the old Yamaha synthesis usable with BC… but I never got one, but the more I study all detailed libraries, the more I notice that most of the top libraries sound great, the big difference between a good music and an beginner is the level of details in controls…. Composers will spend some time to edit and fix all articulations, all nuances with MIDI CC, etc… so it would sound “realistic”. But for some libraries, there are so much details, we need more hands to control everything…. So comes the ideas of the BC


I started with BC when I bought a DX7. Been loving using it ever since, both live and in the studio.


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## muziksculp (Oct 1, 2022)

stigbn said:


> When I use the ensemble patches and add cc lanes in Studio One (for example attack or overtones) I can see that the patch immediately writes "please synchronize ensembles" - but that's not possible while playing.
> What am I doing wrong?


You need to assign an external controller the CC# you want to automate, ie. Assign a HW Fader, or knob on your Keyboard Controller to CC#38, Studio One will generate an automation lane for CC#38 when you move the fader. It will not show a message to Synchronize the Instrument. 

If you click directly on the GUI knob to move CC#38, it will request you to click synchronize. This is not the way I use it, and I'm guessing it is not meant to be used in this fashion.


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## stigbn (Oct 1, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> You need to assign an external controller the CC# you want to automate, ie. Assign a HW Fader, or knob on your Keyboard Controller to CC#38, Studio One will generate an automation lane for CC#38 when you move the fader. It will not show a message to Synchronize the Instrument.
> 
> If you click directly on the GUI knob to move CC#38, it will request you to click synchronize. This is not the way I use it, and I'm guessing it is not meant to be used in this fashion.


I know that I should not click the gui knob directly. 

I thought it would be ok to make the cc lanes in the midi editor in studio one, but apparently not, I can see now, that first there has to be a physical fader for it to work, even though I don't touch the GUI knobs.

The problem is, that I can't use most of the cc-values in Sample Modeling Strings as they are, like cc19 for vibrato rate, I have to reassign the ones I need to my keyboards default cc-values (cc33-cc41) as I can't program the faders on my keyboard. 

But on solo strings there's no problems because there I can right click and 'Learn midi cc automation' - this doesn't work in ensemble strings. This is the only library I have where this is a problem.


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## muziksculp (Oct 1, 2022)

stigbn said:


> The problem is, that I can't use most of the cc-values in Sample Modeling Strings as they are, like cc19 for vibrato rate, I have to reassign the ones I need to my keyboards default cc-values (cc33-cc41) as I can't program the faders on my keyboard.


You can re-map the CC#s to your needs via the re-mapping menu. You are not restricted to use these specific CC#s.


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## stigbn (Oct 1, 2022)

thank you again Muziksculp, I know, I remap all the time, it was just to make it easier for myself that I tried using the cc lanes in Studio One, because I didn't need the use the faders, I just wanted to edit the cc values after recording a part, without having to go into remapping.


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## muziksculp (Oct 1, 2022)

stigbn said:


> thank you again Muziksculp, I know, I remap all the time, it was just to make it easier for myself that I tried using the cc lanes in Studio One, because I didn't need the use the faders, I just wanted to edit the cc values after recording a part, without having to go into remapping.


You are very welcome.

The Ensembles are designed differently compared to the Solo Instruments, they require the modules to be synchronized, which is kind of a unique system of this library's Ens. Strings. So, I would recommend getting a more flexible HW-Fader box that gives you more flexibility when using this library. 

i.e. I use my Yamaha Montage 7 Faders, and knobs to assign various CC#s used in this library for automation.


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## Trash Panda (Oct 1, 2022)

stigbn said:


> thank you again Muziksculp, I know, I remap all the time, it was just to make it easier for myself that I tried using the cc lanes in Studio One, because I didn't need the use the faders, I just wanted to edit the cc values after recording a part, without having to go into remapping.


You could do your remapping and save the NKI. That’s what I’ve been doing to avoid having to remap dynamics to CC1 every. Fucking. Time. I want to open up an SM instrument.


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## HCMarkus (Oct 1, 2022)

I keep my favorite customized versions of SM and AM strings (along with lots of other stuff) in my template, so I can enable and _GO!_


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## muziksculp (Oct 1, 2022)

HCMarkus said:


> I keep my favorite customized versions of SM and AM strings (along with lots of other stuff) in my template, so I can enable and _GO!_


I also have them as custom Instrument Presets in S1Pro 6, In a dedicated folder. 

I can just drag them into the arrange area as needed, and i.e. a Kontakt instance with my custom SM Strings instrument is created for each custom instrument preset I drag. 

Super cool , and fast !


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## PerryD (Oct 2, 2022)

Going for a Disney vibe using S&ES. (Trumpet is real)


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## muziksculp (Oct 8, 2022)

Hi,

Just wanted to mention that the more I use this library, the more impressed I am with what it can do, and I also keep getting better at using it.

It's a gem of a strings library. But it needs a good amount of TLC, which imho. is worth every minute invested into learning this library. One of the best Strings Libraries I have invested into. 

Looking forward to more of those very helpful Tutorial Videos posted by Sample Modeling and @Cristian Labelli .

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## PerryD (Oct 8, 2022)

Some Halloween Space SciFi experimenting here. Ha! Second half is reversed & phase shifted. Very sweet legato/portamento with S&ES.


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## muziksculp (Oct 8, 2022)

PerryD said:


> Some Halloween Space SciFi experimenting here. Ha! Second half is reversed & phase shifted. Very sweet legato/portamento with S&ES.


Beautiful ❤️ 

Love it 👏👏👏 

Thanks for sharing.


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## sislaney (Oct 8, 2022)

PerryD said:


> Some Halloween Space SciFi experimenting here. Ha! Second half is reversed & phase shifted. Very sweet legato/portamento with S&ES.


What's the choir?


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## PerryD (Oct 9, 2022)

sislaney said:


> What's the choir?


Audio Imperia Chorus.


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## PerryD (Oct 9, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Beautiful ❤️
> 
> Love it 👏👏👏
> 
> Thanks for sharing.


 Thank you! I have fun.


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## Cristian Labelli (Oct 16, 2022)

TUTORIAL N.3 (Legato, Portamento & Glissando)​
In the third tutorial, we introduce the legato and portamento/glissando techniques.


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## muziksculp (Oct 16, 2022)

Hi @Cristian Labelli ,

Thank You Very Much for posting Tutorial No.3 for this amazing Strings Sample Library. 

I look forward to watching Tutorial No.4. when it's ready.  

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## muziksculp (Oct 16, 2022)

I would love to be surprised by the release of *Sample Modeling Woodwinds* one of these days.


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## John Longley (Oct 16, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I would love to be surprised by the release of *Sample Modeling Woodwinds* one of these days.


I sincerely hope it happens. Instant buy!


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## muziksculp (Oct 16, 2022)

John Longley said:


> I sincerely hope it happens. Instant buy!


Yup. a real no brainer decision for me.


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## PerryD (Oct 18, 2022)

While I'm in Halloween mode, I thought I would try a vintage mad scientist castle scene. All strings are S&ES. "Igor, get my breath controller!"


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## Cristian Labelli (Nov 11, 2022)

*TUTORIAL N.4 - Bow strokes & Detaché*

Hello everyone! 
Today we talk about the different types of bow strokes (Up-bow and Down-bow) and the detaché technique.


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## clisma (Nov 11, 2022)

Just want to briefly chime in and thank the Sample Modeling team for these videos.

Seeing the concepts explained with visual (including notation) and audible examples makes the various controllers so much clearer, immediately. I thought I had a decent grasp of it all, but feel much more confident after watching these. Highly appreciated!


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## Windbag (Nov 11, 2022)

oooookaay, this one, and particularly the couple bits right around 5min mark showing all the curves (overtones, bowchange, etc) at work, might finally tempt me into picking this library up....which I suppose was inevitable since I've already got everything else SM sells. It goes a long way toward explaining the differences I'm hearing between the demos I've really liked and the ones that have sounded a bit plastic

Very cool indeed - Thanks Cristian!


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## jamie8 (Nov 11, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Sounds Wonderful
> 
> Yes, they do, are you referring to the level you mixed them in, or the low dynamics level via CC11 ?
> 
> ...


jaws


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## mhecker (Nov 11, 2022)

Thank you very much for these videos. Would you be so kind and make the MIDI files available?


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## AudioXpression (Nov 11, 2022)

Thank you for the tips!


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## muziksculp (Nov 12, 2022)

Hi @Cristian Labelli ,

Thank You so much for posting the Fourth Video in the Tutorial Series. Very helpful  

Looking forward to the next video/s . 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Cristian Labelli (Nov 23, 2022)

Hello everyone!

Following many requests regarding sharing MIDI files, here you can find a link to a google drive folder with files related to Tutorial n.4 

- All necessary information is included in the midi file name, like the bpm (even if it's included in the midi files) and the instrument that was used.
- An automation point has been added at the beginning of the region to all parameters that are not set as defaults, so as you open the instrument it sounds like the audio example. 

Link: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1rrPXZ2WbqNL3-h6e_hQ5DhIAZRPDx0xu?usp=share_link


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## muziksculp (Nov 23, 2022)

Thank You for the MIDI file for Video #4 @Cristian Labelli


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## mhecker (Nov 23, 2022)

Cristian! Thank you very much!!


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## leon chevalier (Nov 23, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I would love to be surprised by the release of *Sample Modeling Woodwinds* one of these days.


I could give my home for SM WW. 
(It is strange to be obsessed with something that just don't exist 🤔)


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## Cristian Labelli (Dec 22, 2022)

Hi all 

On the occasion of the release of *Solo instruments v2.03* as individual items (Violin, Viola, Cello & Double Bass) as well as of *Solo Strings Bundle v2.03*, I'm preparing some new demos that exploit the instruments to the fullest. 

This is one of them:



Any feedback/comments are greatly appreciated! 
Cristian


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## JimDiGritz (Dec 30, 2022)

I'm busy adding SM Ensemble Strings to my new template and up until now I've only used the Solo's.

I've looked in the manual and I can't find any mention of the following:

1. Approx Ensemble size of Small, Medium & Large settings?
2. What's the difference between the Chamber and Ensemble patches?
3. To get convincing Divisi (say 4+4 Vlns) do I need to change any Ensemble instrument settings (as opposed to the 'unique' CC data per MIDI track) to ensure I don't get phasing?
4. Has anyone got some suggestions how to use with Berlin Studio to place the (solo and ensemble) instruments?

Thanks!!


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## I like music (Dec 30, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> I'm busy adding SM Ensemble Strings to my new template and up until now I've only used the Solo's.
> 
> I've looked in the manual and I can't find any mention of the following:
> 
> ...


1. I believe the developer (or someone associated with beta testing it) had CC value for ensemble size down as much as possible as approximating an ensemble size of around 4/5 strings? And on the larger side it was 16? Could be making this up but those are the numbers that are in my head (for violins as an example)
2. They definitely sound different. I believe that if you look at their release notes from the update when the chamber strings came out, you'll see what is different (I think it can be found on their site). I'll dig around later and find out for you and link.
3. I'd definitely change the positioning/panning/distance + also the instrument itself (different instrument IRs). All changeable by CC too which is handy. And after that, you can go nuts changing ALL the other stuff e.g. bow noise, dyn to vel, overtones etc to make the ensembles sound more distinct, but probably overkill at that point.
4. I'd love to hear others' thoughts on this. My biggest issue with the strings was getting them to sound like they were in the same place/hall as my IB/IW and CSS/CSB stuff.


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## morganwable (Dec 30, 2022)

Is there a changelog? I'm trying to decide if requesting an update from 2.0.1 to 2.0.2 (my link expired) would be worth the trouble, but I can't find one.


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## Leandro Gardini (Dec 30, 2022)

Cristian Labelli said:


> TUTORIAL N.3 (Legato, Portamento & Glissando)​
> In the third tutorial, we introduce the legato and portamento/glissando techniques.



These tutorials are very helpful for those who think SM is hard to work with.


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## PerryD (Jan 1, 2023)

Samplemodeling Strings can do some lovely mezzo piano lyrical lines.


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## sislaney (Jan 6, 2023)

听起来不错。


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## Batrawi (Saturday at 8:09 AM)

PerryD said:


> Samplemodeling Strings can do some lovely mezzo piano lyrical lines.


is that the chamber or the full ensembles?


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## PerryD (Sunday at 9:00 AM)

Batrawi said:


> is that the chamber or the full ensembles?


Full ensemble at about 70 for CC95 (ensemble size).


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## Fa (Sunday at 10:21 AM)

sislaney said:


> 听起来不错。



Nice video and some nice words about the SM Strings, I just had the feeling by the way that some of the issues faced and commented in the video are unfortunately coming from basic misconceptions (e.g. expecting SM strings to be " as a library " while they are a virtual instrument instead, and so you must use controllers even when you play a tremolo, and you must modulate vibrato to avoid getting a static or unexpressive sound etc.).

Another remark is that to explore layering (that is really recommended to get the best out of the product) it's important to follow some of our rules/tips, and understand the way the instruments are reacting to a MIDI track (e.g. as discussed often before, if you drive 2 or more instruments with the same MIDI track, you are creating an unreal sync and phasing, while if you drive them with slightly different performances, as it happens in real life, you get the real thing  etc. etc. ).

This type of misunderstandings are showing even more the importance of the former and the recently published "official" tutorials, as the community know-how sharing. It's definitely boring reading manuals and technical instructions, while watching short videos and chatting with friends is doing the job in a more pleasant and human way .


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