# Approach to memorising scales



## JimDiGritz (Dec 10, 2022)

So this is actually generic question which I think is as much about learning style and memory as it is Composition (the subject of this sub-forum!) However it deals with something that the majority of you on here have already achieved so I'm keen to find out how you approached it!

I also will try to keep this question as clear as possible since it's often mis-understood (based on the dozens of videos and online forum answers to this question). _So apologies for the long post and belabouring the point somewhat!_

*What **approach** worked for YOU to memorize, and achieve instant recall, for a large set of sequenced values (like scales or the chords in each Key)?*

When I say "memorise", I mean if someone asks me the notes in E harmonic minor I should be able to say "E, F#, G, A, B, C, D#, E" with barely any hesitation.

This instant recall has been cited in almost every course, lecture and book on Music Theory as a *pre-requisite *for composition. I understand this and accept it. The issue is that no guidance is given on how to best approach this task. Often the chapter on Scales simply ends with: "Now learn all the notes in the Major and (all 3) Minor scales." Even 'knowing' that the G minor and Bb major share all the same notes requires a little mental gymnastics.

I should also be able to instantly recall how many Sharps/Flats there are in the key of F# Major without stopping to count the sharps/flats that I might have just recited. The equivalent would be knowing that Johns phone number is 543 3785345 and needing to know how many 5's it contains! I should know "John's phone # has three 5s in it and is 543 3785345".

_I appreciate that this question is conflating scales/modes and keys to some extent, however whilst they all can be computed using simple formula's they all still need to be memorised individually._

Again to be clear I'm NOT talking about *calculating* or *deriving* them via formula like "Tone, semitone, tone, tone...", or working out the number of flats in key signature using the Circle of Fifths, etc. This is to me like remembering Sarah's phone number by saying "The first digit of her number is the next sequential number from John's, the rest of the number is the same _except _I need to raise the third and Fifth digits by one". Sure, that works but it's hardly instant recall...

I can write out the Circle of Fifths from memory and therefore start to figure out Chords in each key, but this is still 'slow'. I also know the Major and Natural Minor Tone/Semitone formulas so I can _construct_ any Maj/Min scale however this is _NOT instant recall_.

Is there any method or technique to doing this efficiently?

For the past few months I've been simply writing out the 15 Major scales in a big 'list'. I've also tried focussing on a single scale per day for a few weeks at a time. My challenge is that whilst I can recite the scale that I'm currently working on the one from 4 weeks ago has just faded completely. Is there a better way to do this?

Again, for clarity I'm not looking for hacks or shortcuts, just what practical and methodical approach worked for *you*. One scale per week? writing them *all *out everyday? Flashcards?


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## JimDiGritz (Dec 10, 2022)

FYI this has been my approach for the past week or so with A Major..

Write the scale, cover it. Write it again. repeat. I've got through one notebook already!!






PS Despite doing several hundred lines like this, frustratingly I can't simply write these backwards or tell you the 5th or 3rd without spelling them out in my head...

Is this how you did it?


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## Vik (Dec 10, 2022)

For someone who has a main instrument, my guess is the best method is to practice these scales on that instrument – both played as plain scales (up and down) and by improvising in the same scales.


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## gamma-ut (Dec 10, 2022)

As you can see the scale above on the notebook I'm not sure what the point of writing them out like that is other than as some kind of punishment.

The reality is that at some point you just wind up remembering them and this may well work but you're going to fill a lot of books in the process. I'd go for circles of fifths and fourths as the number of sharps and flats is logical (which has the advantage of following the way the key will be constructed next to the clef on sheet music) – and I'd play them as much as possible rather than write them out.

The other thing is that knowing where the half-tone steps are is very handy as you'll need that for other modes as well – it's way better to remember which notes are sharpened or flatted relative to a particular home scale than to try to align a major scale to a different starting note – as the former will help embed the characteristic sound of the mode.


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## JimDiGritz (Dec 10, 2022)

I've also just tried adding


gamma-ut said:


> As you can see the scale above I'm not sure what the point is other than as some kind of punishment.
> 
> The reality is that at some point you just wind up remembering them and this may work but you're going to fill a lot of books in the process. I'd go for circles of fifths and fourths as the number of sharps and flats is logical (which has the advantage of following the way the key will be constructed next to the clef on sheet music) – and I'd play them as much as possible rather than write them out.


I'm covering previous line as I go..






I'm also starting to write them forwards and backwards and in a circle...


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## JimDiGritz (Dec 10, 2022)

Vik said:


> For someone who has a main instrument, my guess is the best method is to practice these scales on that instruments – both played as plain scales (up and down) and by improvising in the same scales.


I play guitar and the scales have just become shapes and muscle memory and haven't translated at all into Music Theory.

For example for me Mixolydian is a moving 3NPS shape starting at "1A" and shifts a fret where the tuning moves on the B string.

I can easily improvise in Bb Phrygian (it's shape 2B - and I remember this by a picture of a Fridge on stage with Hamlet - you figure it out!!) as long as I remember where Bb is everywhere on the fretboard (I'm also working on this...)

Perhaps a classic example of learning the 'wrong' way...!


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## Vik (Dec 10, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> I play guitar and the scales have just become shapes and muscle memory and haven't translated at all into Music Theory.


Maybe the method I suggested is more useful for piano players than guitar players, since piano scales look very different from each other (and since we have the piano keys in front of us all the time). 
Still, I'm a little skeptical when it comes to 'mechanical' ways to learn music related stuff, especially if it doesn't involve hearing anything. Nevertheless, you'll soon find out if your method works well – good luck!


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## JimDiGritz (Dec 10, 2022)

Vik said:


> Maybe the method I suggested is more useful for piano players than guitar players, since piano scales look very different from each other (and since we have the piano keys in front of us all the time).
> Still, I'm a little skeptical when it comes to 'mechanical' ways to learn music related stuff, especially if it doesn't involve hearing anything. Nevertheless, you'll soon find out if your method works well – good luck!


Fair enough!

I'm simply following the advice that I've heard from virtually every lecturer, teacher, and top composer that I've read or heard on the subject.

In fact just the other night I was listening to an interview with David Conte (chair at SF Conservatory and student of Nadia Boulanger) who not only expected all of his student composers to be able to recall every note in every mode but also learn Bach's Fugues note for note - something apparently Nadia could do by the age of 10.


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## JimDiGritz (Dec 10, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> As you can see the scale above on the notebook I'm not sure what the point of writing them out like that is other than as some kind of punishment.
> 
> *The reality is that at some point you just wind up remembering them* and this may well work but you're going to fill a lot of books in the process. I'd go for circles of fifths and fourths as the number of sharps and flats is logical (which has the advantage of following the way the key will be constructed next to the clef on sheet music) – and I'd play them as much as possible rather than write them out.
> 
> The other thing is that knowing where the half-tone steps are is very handy as you'll need that for other modes as well – it's way better to remember which notes are sharpened or flatted relative to a particular home scale than to try to align a major scale to a different starting note – as the former will help embed the characteristic sound of the mode.


This is the key statement!!! Just winding up remembering is awful vague!!

As for the Circle of Fifths, I've got a decent understanding of all 3 circles and can (slowly) work through a mental image and tell you how many flats Eb has (it's three back from C, so 3 flats...). Still doesn't easily help me recall the flats IN Eb!

I have a clear image of the CoF in my head so I can figure out the Flats in say the key of Ab, since the previous Flats are retained, so by the time I get to Ab at 8 O'clock on the Circle I have already added flats on B and E - plus I flat the fourth note in the scale so I could figure out Ab - "Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab".. but this process took me several minutes to figure out...


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## Justin L. Franks (Dec 10, 2022)

I think the idea of scale memorization, or memorizing the number of sharps and flats in each key, as absolute prerequisites for composing is pretty ridiculous. But if you want to be able to memorize sacles, then memorize the relative steps in each scale.

Like (W = whole step, h = half step):

Major = Root - W - W - h - W - W - W - h
Natural Minor = Root - W - h - W - W - h - W - W


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## zolhof (Dec 10, 2022)

Other than playing and reading them to exhaustion, what really did it for me was to verbally spell scales, intervals, chords, etc exactly like @Jett Hitt (I mean, Dr. Evil) mentioned in your other thread: 






Is there a standard or established Syllabus or Curriculum for Composition?


Another tip I will add from my experience is that all students who have trouble with music theory have trouble for the same reason: they can't spell their scales. Be able to verbally spell all of your scales. Start with major. Put them in a hat and draw them out randomly. You have ten seconds to...




vi-control.net


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## EanS (Dec 10, 2022)

In essence and in the long run, idea is to forget about scales and better memorize intervals well. So from a root note you know which intervals to play next just by knowing the scale formula. For guitar players the worst thing we could do and still do is learning shapes and depend on them. It's way better learn CAGED than 3NPS, so you learn by lead notes and their intervals. The distance between notes is the same as when you learn driving, there aren't roads, streets, alleys, etc... there are only crossings and you need to understand each one while you drive. By learning intervals you know what to do on each situation that crosses you by knowing what to do, rather than knowing where to go. 

A practical example, if you play the Ionian Scale, when you lower the 3rd of these same intervals, it becomes melodic Minor. 

C Major: *C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C* 

C Melodic Minor: *C, D, Eb, F, G, A, B, C*

That's a job I've been procrastinating for at least 3 decades, I know what to do, but don't put the effort on it since I'm a hobbyist and rather have fun. But at least I know now what not to do when learning guitar: Sounds, not shapes.


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## JimDiGritz (Dec 10, 2022)

zolhof said:


> Other than playing and reading them to exhaustion, what really did it for me was to verbally spell scales, intervals, chords, etc exactly like @Jett Hitt (I mean, Dr. Evil) mentioned in your other thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That thread actually helped me focus on how important memorization is, but you'll note that @Jett Hitt described how he TESTED not how the students memorised the information!!


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## JimDiGritz (Dec 10, 2022)

Justin L. Franks said:


> I think the idea of scale memorization, or memorizing the number of sharps and flats in each key, as absolute prerequisites for composing is pretty ridiculous. But if you want to be able to memorize sacles, then memorize the relative steps in each scale.
> 
> Like (W = whole step, h = half step):
> 
> ...



Don't get me wrong, the act of memorising stuff isn't something I want to do for the sake of it.

I frankly enjoy the whimsical notion that I could be an amazing composer simply through the sheer strength of my incredible ideas and devastatingly unique musicality... however I have to doff my cap to those that have spent decades doing this and acknowledge that stepping back and REALLY internalising the basics is the only way to ever build towards a genuine 'mastery' of something.

I'm also a sucker for racing ahead and assuming that the basics are for beginners. I spent an hour last night watching a few YouTube video lectures on the Neutral and Thematic Melodic Figuration in the Schillinger System of Musical Composition ()

All very interesting but I should have spent the time on learning my scales...!!!!


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 10, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> That thread actually helped me focus on how important memorization is, but you'll note that @Jett Hitt described how he TESTED not how the students memorised the information!!


The most useful tool for memorizing almost anything for me--and what I pushed my students to use--was flashcards. Get yourself some flashcards with key signatures. Once you can identify all of the key signatures, it becomes pretty easy to apply that to the scale. Obviously, you'll have to memorize the order of sharps and flats to begin. It is helpful to know little tricks like the last sharp is always the leading tone in a major key, or the last flat is the fourth scale degree. It is helpful to know where half and whole steps fall in each scale/mode. It is important to be able to understand these base mechanics, but ultimately, you want to think in larger blocks of information. You want to know that E Major has four sharps and not have to figure it out from the leading tone.


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## Wensleydale (Dec 10, 2022)

I found it helped a lot when I learned to play the piano a bit, which was not until after I had started trying to learn some theory. Learning scales was the only aspect of piano playing that I found easy. Now, if I have to recall how a scale goes, I just visualize the keyboard and remember where my fingers would go.


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## Noeticus (Dec 10, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> FYI this has been my approach for the past week or so with A Major..
> 
> Write the scale, cover it. Write it again. repeat. I've got through one notebook already!!
> 
> ...


This reminds me of...

All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.

All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.

All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.


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## JimDiGritz (Dec 10, 2022)

Noeticus said:


> This reminds me of...
> 
> All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
> 
> ...


Don't worry, I found plenty of time to buy string libraries!


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## musicalweather (Dec 10, 2022)

Scales (at least _major_ scales) became much easier for me to grasp after learning about the concept of tetrachords as explained in this book. A tetrachord is four notes with these steps between them: whole-whole-half. Every major scale has a lower and an upper tetrachord; they are separated by a whole step. So, the scale steps appear like this, with the lower and upper tetrachord: W-W-H-W-W-W-H. Tetrachords are interlocking! Every tetrachord is the _lower_ tetrachord of one scale and the _upper_ tetrachord of another scale. For example, the tetrachord C-D-E-F is the lower tetrachord of C major and the upper tetrachord of F major. It probably would help to consider each tetrachord and think about which two scales it belongs to. Then you'll see more clearly how scales are related to one another via the circle of fifths.

I wish I had known this when learning music theory the first time. Would have saved me furiously counting half steps during exams.


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## musicalweather (Dec 10, 2022)

Also, if you have trouble hearing a tetrachord in your head, turn to the Addams Family theme:


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## NekujaK (Dec 10, 2022)

I'm reminded of this amusing anectode:

A reporter visited Albert Einstien's home to interview him for an article. When the interview was finished and the reporter got up to leave, he asked if he could have Einstein's home phone number, in case he needed more details or had follow up questions. "Certainly," replied Einstein, and got up from his desk and retrieved a phone book from a shelf. After flipping through the pages, he located his phone number and gave it to the reporter. Somwhat puzzled, the reporter asked, "Don't you know your own phone number?", to which Einstein answered, "Why clutter my brain with trivial information when I know where to look it up."

You don't need to memorize scales to be a good composer. In fact, you don't need any music theory at all. Your ear and musical instincts are the only required tools. Theory comes afterwards, when you want to analyze, intellectualize, and reduce the artistry of your work to non-musical concepts.

But if the makeup of a particular scale is so important, it's information that can be looked up in a matter of seconds.


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## JimDiGritz (Dec 10, 2022)

NekujaK said:


> I'm reminded of this amusing anectode:
> 
> A reporter visited Albert Einstien's home to interview him for an article. When the interview was finished and the reporter got up to leave, he asked if he could have Einstein's home phone number, in case he needed more details or had follow up questions. "Certainly," replied Einstein, and got up from his desk and retrieved a phone book from a shelf. After flipping through the pages, he located his phone number and gave it to the reporter. Somwhat puzzled, the reporter asked, "Don't you know your own phone number?", to which Einstein answered, "Why clutter my brain with trivial information when I know where to look it up."
> 
> ...


Great story! However I'm just hearing TOO MANY TIMES the simple advice to memorize the basics by people who a) are at the top of their composing game and/or b) lifelong music educators.

Plus my own experience this year has been mostly to nod and skip the sentence at the end of the lesson/chapter that says "Memorise this" and just simply move on to the next topic. I then wonder why the concepts and subjects later on become almost impenetrable.

I think this is all the more important since the composing style I'm aspiring to is late Classical and film (Mahler, Holst, John Williams, Goldsmith etc). This style is rock solid on the classical structure and form which itself requires rigorous adherence to (or at least acknowledgement of) musical rules which require a very strong theory understanding.

The corollary of this is I played rock and blues guitar for years and was comfortable with basic intervallic theory and shapes 99% of the time and the large majority of players I admired had a similar knowledge base.


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## b_elliott (Dec 10, 2022)

FWIW a memorization technique for rock-solid results lasting a lifetime.

The old-school way of memorizing the multiplication table as a 6-year old: The teacher would have the class daily chant out "1x1 is 1, 1x2 is 2..." on up to "10x10 is 100". We would even chant this out loud as we stood in line waiting to enter gym class, before play, etc. 

Memorization = solely verbal, loud and repetitive. 

Hope this helps,
Bill


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## Hadrondrift (Dec 10, 2022)

Can you read sheet music? Visualizing scales on music paper helps me. I can at least name the common major and minor scales by making them appear on music paper in my mind's eye.

»Name the scale of E major!« - I immediately see four crosses on music paper and can recite the scale aloud simply by reading the notes on the imagined music paper, starting at e, taking into account the key signature.
»Scale of c minor!« - I think: Parallel of E-flat major => I immediately see three flats, can read the scale from paper.

In particular, with the help of this visualization, I can also recite the scales backwards and find downward intervals quickly, which I otherwise have a lot of trouble with.

I guess, over the years, I visually memorized a pack of information of the form:




Maybe one can learn those information with the help of flashcards? Just an idea.


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## PhilA (Dec 10, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> The most useful tool for memorizing almost anything for me--and what I pushed my students to use--was flashcards. Get yourself some flashcards with key signatures. Once you can identify all of the key signatures, it becomes pretty easy to apply that to the scale. Obviously, you'll have to memorize the order of sharps and flats to begin. It is helpful to know little tricks like the last sharp is always the leading tone in a major key, or the last flat is the fourth scale degree. It is helpful to know where half and whole steps fall in each scale/mode. It is important to be able to understand these base mechanics, but ultimately, you want to think in larger blocks of information. You want to know that E Major has four sharps and not have to figure it out from the leading tone.


The flash card approach is great. I’ve found the Tenuto app to be perfect for this, it has customisable exercises for all sorts of music theory memorisation. 








‎Tenuto


‎Tenuto is a collection of 24 highly-customizable exercises designed to enhance your musicality. From recognizing chords on a keyboard to identifying intervals by ear, it has an exercise for you. Tenuto also includes six musical calculators for accidentals, intervals, scales, chords, analysis...



apps.apple.com





Their website https://www.musictheory.net/
Also has all of the exercises however the app is more usable if you have a supported device.


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## JimDiGritz (Dec 10, 2022)

PhilA said:


> The flash card approach is great. I’ve found the Tenuto app to be perfect for this, it has customisable exercises for all sorts of music theory memorisation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks great, sadly not available for Android. I tried a few apps, and ended up with both physical cards and a generic flash card app


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## SupremeFist (Dec 10, 2022)

Vik said:


> Maybe the method I suggested is more useful for piano players than guitar players, since piano scales look very different from each other (and since we have the piano keys in front of us all the time).
> Still, I'm a little skeptical when it comes to 'mechanical' ways to learn music related stuff, especially if it doesn't involve hearing anything. Nevertheless, you'll soon find out if your method works well – good luck!


Yeah, I first learned all the scales on the piano (and clarinet) and to this day it would take me more mental effort to write out the names of the notes in any given scale than just to play it on the instrument in question; indeed I don't see the practical value in being able to do the first. (But in manuscript for me it's automatic.)


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## fakemaxwell (Dec 10, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> FYI this has been my approach for the past week or so with A Major..
> 
> Write the scale, cover it. Write it again. repeat. I've got through one notebook already!!
> 
> ...


Where did you read to do this? None of the note names matter at all if you don't use them with intention. The point is to write music, not to memorize scales. Everything you do as practice is in service of the writing. You seem to be treating scales as a trivia question.

You have to apply a scale to learn it. For instance, if you truly wanted to go through A Major by rote:

1. Write the scale (on staff, not as letters. These letters don't mean anything)
2. Play the scale (on piano, preferably)
3. Sing the scale 
4. Write a melody with the scale (hit the key notes!)
5. Harmonize the melody

Do that for every scale you're trying to learn.


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## mikeh-375 (Dec 10, 2022)

NekujaK said:


> I'm reminded of this amusing anectode:
> 
> A reporter visited Albert Einstien's home to interview him for an article. When the interview was finished and the reporter got up to leave, he asked if he could have Einstein's home phone number, in case he needed more details or had follow up questions. "Certainly," replied Einstein, and got up from his desk and retrieved a phone book from a shelf. After flipping through the pages, he located his phone number and gave it to the reporter. Somwhat puzzled, the reporter asked, "Don't you know your own phone number?", to which Einstein answered, "Why clutter my brain with trivial information when I know where to look it up."
> 
> ...


Well, I couldn't be more opposed to what you've written @NekujaK , nice Einstein story though.


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## José Herring (Dec 11, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> So this is actually generic question which I think is as much about learning style and memory as it is Composition (the subject of this sub-forum!) However it deals with something that the majority of you on here have already achieved so I'm keen to find out how you approached it!
> 
> I also will try to keep this question as clear as possible since it's often mis-understood (based on the dozens of videos and online forum answers to this question). _So apologies for the long post and belabouring the point somewhat!_
> 
> ...


It's a long post and I'll admit I didn't read the whole thing. Also, I'm sure you've gotten a lot of good comments already so I hope I'm not repeating, but....

Best and really the only way to learn is on an instrument. Rote memory at first, then start to learn the theory of keys and how they related to scales and then what chord goes on what scale degree, ect...

Then you drill, drill, drill everyday so you don't have to think about it. Your ears and your fingers will make quick work of it while thinking about it and theorizing will only lead to a life long confusion. Music is created and played by players and not theorist. Scales are no exception.


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## Vik (Dec 11, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> I play guitar and the scales have just become shapes and muscle memory and haven't translated at all into Music Theory.





NekujaK said:


> You don't need to memorize scales to be a good composer. In fact, you don't need any music theory at all.


IMO music theory and memorizing scales can be a good time saver, but of course: whoever who gave the first lecture on music theory had never heard any lecture about music theory. The first person who stated that one shouldn't double a third in the melody with a third in the bass hadn't heard such a statement before.

Having said that, good knowledge about chords and scales makes improvisation easier, and in many cases, a composition is only a series of edited and filtered improvisations. 

It's also possible to assemble IKEA furniture without having seen the instructions, but that doesn't serve as a good argument pro avoiding reading manuals.


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## SupremeFist (Dec 11, 2022)

NekujaK said:


> But if the makeup of a particular scale is so important, it's information that can be looked up in a matter of seconds.


I mean, when you're improvising live it's not necessarily a good look to take a few seconds out of your solo to Google a scale.


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## JimDiGritz (Dec 11, 2022)

José Herring said:


> It's a long post and I'll admit I didn't read the whole thing. Also, I'm sure you've gotten a lot of good comments already so I hope I'm not repeating, but....
> 
> Best and really the only way to learn is on an instrument. Rote memory at first, then start to learn the theory of keys and how they related to scales and then what chord goes on what scale degree, ect...
> 
> Then you drill, drill, drill everyday so you don't have to think about it. Your ears and your fingers will make quick work of it while thinking about it and theorizing will only lead to a life long confusion. Music is created and played by players and not theorist. Scales are no exception.


I hear this, but I can play most scales and modes on a guitar, but it's pure muscle memory, shapes and some basic pattern recognition.

When it comes to composition I'm struggling to apply scales and build harmony since I'm constantly having to check what notes are in a scale.


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 11, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> I hear this, but I can play most scales and modes on a guitar, but it's pure muscle memory, shapes and some basic pattern recognition.
> 
> When it comes to composition I'm struggling to apply scales and build harmony since I'm constantly having to check what notes are in a scale.


Composing and improvizing are entirely different things. One is an intellectual calculation (fueled perhaps by inexplicable inner passions), and the other relies almost entirely on muscle memory. Telling a composer that he doesn't need to know his scales is like telling a novelist that he doesn't need to know the alphabet.


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## NekujaK (Dec 11, 2022)

Clearly, my statement about not needing to memorize scales for composing triggered some strong reactions.

While I'm not a trained composer, I did study basic classical music theory as a youngster, and jazz theory later as an adult, so I'm no stranger to scales and modes, and I can appreciate their usefulness.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but at its most basic level, I view composing as simply a series of note choices. Some of those notes define the harmonic structure, some are melodic, some provide counter melodies, and some are ornamental. The primary tool I use when making those note choices is my ear. Does F# or F natural sound best here? Do I want the bass to reinforce the root? How much dissonance do I want? And so on... I may be aware of the key and scale I'm currently inhabiting, but it's completely secondary to what I want the music to sound like. Later on, I can go back thru my finished piece to figure out what just happened, if that's even of any use.

What I just described is, for me, pure creative composing, that's driven completely by the sound of the music. But I totally get there are other ways of composing, especially when, as the OP pointed out, you're trying to emulate a particular musical style or genre. Knowing the scales, harmonic structures, and chord progressions that embody a style are a helpful roadmap to creating convincing results. I've had to do it many times myself. But even in these situations, you could ostensibly use your ear to listen, digest, and understand how to recreate the music, without hardcore knowledge of scales etc.

Anyway, go forth and make your music using whatever method(s) give you the most pleasing results


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## ed buller (Dec 11, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> Don't get me wrong, the act of memorising stuff isn't something I want to do for the sake of it.
> 
> I frankly enjoy the whimsical notion that I could be an amazing composer simply through the sheer strength of my incredible ideas and devastatingly unique musicality... however I have to doff my cap to those that have spent decades doing this and acknowledge that stepping back and REALLY internalising the basics is the only way to ever build towards a genuine 'mastery' of something.
> 
> ...



schillinger is a bottomless pit. Fascinating but !. Yes i'd learn scales first. Franz's Videos are amazing though. Keep watching them. BTW John Barry Learned from schillinger !!!! 

Best

ed


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## SupremeFist (Dec 11, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> I hear this, but I can play most scales and modes on a guitar, but it's pure muscle memory, shapes and some basic pattern recognition.
> 
> When it comes to composition I'm struggling to apply scales and build harmony since I'm constantly having to check what notes are in a scale.


This makes sense because it's trivially easy to play any given scale in all 12 keys on the guitar (just move the shape up a fret). But on most other instruments you have to learn what the notes are in every scale and so it becomes second nature. (Maybe part of why "keyboard skills" have long been part of musical education.)


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## SupremeFist (Dec 11, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Music is created and played by players and not theorist. Scales are no exception.


I would maybe say that that's not such a hard-and-fast distinction; a lot of people have been both players and theorists (eg the bebop guys).


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## JimDiGritz (Dec 11, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> This makes sense because it's trivially easy to play any given scale in all 12 keys on the guitar (just move the shape up a fret). But on most other instruments you have to learn what the notes are in every scale and so it becomes second nature. (Maybe part of why "keyboard skills" have long been part of musical education.)


Well I wouldn't say trivial, the change in tuning between the G and B makes playing patterns across the strings a real memory challenge


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## SupremeFist (Dec 11, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> Well I wouldn't say trivial, the change in tuning between the G and B makes playing patterns across the strings a real memory challenge


Sure, I just mean once you've learned a pattern across the 6 strings you can move it anywhere up or down. Whereas learning C major on the piano doesn't help you play Eb major.


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## ZeroZero (Dec 11, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> I've also just tried adding
> 
> I'm covering previous line as I go..
> 
> ...


Here is your answer. You are taking the wrong approach. It's not just a question of what you can write down and intellectualise. Writing out the circle of fifths and memorising it can help a bit, but its about sound, not visualisation on a piece of paper. 
The verb "to know" means something different in music. I have a lot of intellectual knowledge about music, but that does not mean I can use it. 
I played trumpet, sax and a lot of wind instruments plus guitar. One time a teacher of mine quoted a quip he attributed to Miles Davis when asked "how do you play the trumpet?". His answer was "Go and learn the piano".
Now for years I ignored this advice, but finally, at the age of 56 I started to properly learn it. It helpos with everything - especially composing.
Not only is some piano dexterity required for inputting MIDI, but its much more than this. 
For all saxophones, for flute, for brass, you cannot see your hands. I am an accomplished sax player, but if you asked me where I put my fingers to form a C major Arp, I would not have a clue. It's all been internalised and even if I could tell you, this would help not a jot in describing a C triad's form.
Not so for the piano. If you can play, even a little bit, you can "see" a c major triad as a kind of "sub-pattern" amongst the white and black notes. In this case it starts on the white note before the two black notes, then it's two white notes up, and two white notes up again. Similarly F# major is the first black note of the three, then the last black note of the three, then the first black note of the two. 
Pianists "see" these patterns as if all gthe other notes someghow get greyed out. As you grow, these patterns become more and more familiar and you can approach them top down, or in inversions, in a flash. 
This kind of knowing is also accompanied by the ear - you hear the patterns. 

One caveat here - learning the piano the old traditional way - learn notation, play the notation, leaves out the crucial step - that of identifiying each notes intervalisrtic relation to the others. My wife played from the page for forty years - she cannot improvise one jot. Although she does have "intellectual knowledge" of harmony - just like you are trying to acquire, its no good to her, she can't get it into the way she creates music, in fact she never creates music, she only copies it. 
The method I am describing is often called "playing by ear", but don't let this fool you "ear" players know much more about harmony than most classical readers, and tehy can implement it. Try looking at Piano with Warren - a Gospel site on Utube. His knowledge runs through his fingers and he is a great teacher.

Western music notation was customised for the piano. the C below the treble clef, was once a line and this line existed between the treble and bass clefs, making a single staff of eleven lines. Later this was dropped and two clefs were used. I have over simplified but this is the gist.
So, why am I telling you all this? Knowing al the names of your notes so you can write them out, is like someone sending you a postacrd about the taste of bacon. Its the sounds that matter. The Piano, even at rudimentary level makes harmony apparent - visually and its a trivial matter to then apply this knowedge to a score. Practising the piano, putting your theory into practice, is much better than all the books on harmony you can read. 
Here is something I did. I took the idea of a major triad and played it through all 12 keys. First chromatically, then through a cycle of fourths, then wholetones. I played the triad up, then down, through all these cycles, then I played the inversions of each of the triads across the keyboard and through various patterns. A pattern can be anything using these notes - even less than all the notes. 
Playing triads through the modes will also help - 12 keys as above. Being able to cite your ii V Is or 1 V vi IVs AND play them so the sound goes into the ears, will also cdment basic harmony. 
This is a lot of work, but it's much better than reading a lot of books and being able to chat about harmony. 
So my advice, forget about learning the shapes intelectually only, go to a piano, take a look and HEAR it!

Z


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## ed buller (Dec 11, 2022)

Music is really taught in two ways. The first is for a performer . THEN you need to learn, off by heart, scales, keys, chords in all keys, how to read rhythms quickly etc etc...basically everything you'll need to be able to play someone else music. 

The second ( woefully underutilized ) is for a composer. Now most composers throughout History did the first method. In fact most of the "great" composers where fluent in a couple of instruments. Piano and something else usually. And many were Virtuosos . 

But now, things are different. 

My advice would be to cut through all this bollocks and start writing music as quickly as possible. Just pick 5 bits of music you wish you had written and take them apart. You'll find THAT much more useful than copying out scales I promise !

best

ed


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## Trash Panda (Dec 11, 2022)

Record a melody into a DAW. Identify the scale with the DAW’s built in functions or Scaler 2. Lock the piano roll to that scale and build out a harmony and counter melody in the piano roll. 

Play a new melody, lock the piano roll to the previous scale, copy the melody into it and force it to conform to the locked scale. Find a way to make it musical and build out harmony and counter melody around it. 

Then find the scale of the second melody, force the first melody to fit into the scale of the second melody and build out the harmony and counter melody around it. 

Alternately, pick a scale and lock the DAW piano roll/keyboard to it so you’re forced to only use that scale and write something with it. 

This will help you internalize the modes (more important than the scale - mode plus root) and how they “feel” in a musical manner. 

At least that’s what has worked for me. Certainly more engaging than writing notes on paper, and finding a method that’s engaging is how you’ll learn most easily.


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## The Retroblueman (Dec 11, 2022)

I would aim to have a routine that is musically rewarding in itself and indirectly targets your problem (which is really learning *keys *rather than learning scales). Try something *like *this (not quite what I did - but I was a student and had 3 hours a day to practice - this is adapted for the time poor).

Week 1
Write a *very *simple keyboard/piano arrangement of a song *you love* in a major key you are comfortable in- it should have at least the I, IV and V chords in it (so your harmony hits every note in the key) but the arrangement and song should be simple enough that you can play it off by heart easily by day 5 of the week (nursery rhymes good if nothing else comes to mind, block chords and just the melody absolutely fine- write well within in your comfort range, whatever that is).

Week 2
Transpose your arrangement into 2 keys a day (do this at the piano, not on paper) - give yourself 10 minutes per key, feel free to use a cheat sheet with the notes of each scale written out. Don't worry if you finish or not - but, at the end of the 10 minutes, give yourself a mark out of 10 for how *hard * it was and keep a note of this. After 6 days you should have covered the 12 main major keys. On day 7 do the three hardest keys again for ten minutes each (don't worry about finishing in the ten minutes).

Week 3 - Repeat week 2

Week 4 - do only your three hardest keys this week

Week 5 - do another song, arrangement can be a bit more complicated - but you still want to be able to play it by heart in your comfort key by day 5.

Weeks 6-8 - repeat weeks 2-4 for your new song

Weeks 9 - 16 Write a simple keyboard arrangement of a song you like in a _minor _key you are comfortable in- [etc]

Weeks 17- 24 - back to the majors, but, this time, your arrangement should have a section where your left hand holds the chords and your right hand does some noodly improvisation using the notes in the key (aim for simply doing it rather than being good at it) .

Week 25 - minors

[etc]

Hope that helps/works!


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## ZeroZero (Dec 11, 2022)

The Retroblueman said:


> I would aim to have a routine that is musically rewarding in itself and indirectly targets your problem (which is really learning *keys *rather than learning scales). Try something *like *this (not quite what I did - but I was a student and had 3 hours a day to practice - this is adapted for the time poor).
> 
> Week 1
> Write a *very *simple keyboard/piano arrangement of a song *you love* in a major key you are comfortable in- it should have at least the I, IV and V chords in it (so your harmony hits every note in the key) but the arrangement and song should be simple enough that you can play it off by heart easily by day 5 of the week (nursery rhymes good if nothing else comes to mind, block chords and just the melody absolutely fine- write well within in your comfort range, whatever that is).
> ...


I have done this with nursery rhymes and American Folk tunes. It’s such an excellent exercise for piano and harmony. What it taught me was how to find nests of inverted chords - to voice lead, from one chord to the next. This is one of the most important skills for a composer. 
When you take a tune though 12 keys it can sound pretty odd in the far away keys.The notes of a chord can get muddy, or alternatively sound too high. I hardly ever play Ab in it's root Position for this reason. So, taking simple tunes through the keys, adapting chords as you go is great way to learn How to voice lead.
I have Band in a Box here and this instead of a metronome. I’ll put in some classic changes and spend weeks on them until I can recognise them with my muscle memory and ears in all keys, starting at slow tempos, then speeding up. I try to integrate scale fragments and chromaticisms between two chord tones to. This way melodies abound


Z


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## José Herring (Dec 11, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> When it comes to composition I'm struggling to apply scales and build harmony since I'm constantly having to check what notes are in a scale.


That's why most composers play or played keyboards. The scales are based on how the notes are laid out on the keybed. It isn't pure muscle memory and acts as a nice bridge to learning that e-harmonic minor has f# and d# in it while EMajor has f#,C#,G#,D#. 

I was kind of fortunate because as I kid I had to drill scales on the clarinet for 30 minutes a day and then I had to learn music theory on the keyboard. 

I'm now learning to really play the keyboards so I'm not indifferent to your struggles. If I had to start all over again scales would be a total nightmare for me.


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## ZeroZero (Dec 11, 2022)

José Herring said:


> That's why most composers play or played keyboards. The scales are based on how the notes are laid out on the keybed. It isn't pure muscle memory and acts as a nice bridge to learning that e-harmonic minor has f# and d# in it while EMajor has f#,C#,G#,D#.
> 
> I was kind of fortunate because as I kid I had to drill scales on the clarinet for 30 minutes a day and then I had to learn music theory on the keyboard.
> 
> I'm now learning to really play the keyboards so I'm not indifferent to your struggles. If I had to start all over again scales would be a total nightmare for me.


Do check out Piano with Warren on you tube. He is a Gospel Teacher, but don't let this worry you. He has plenty to offer. He does not cater for absolute beginners - so none of this "What a chord?" stuff, intermediate and advanced only. He is a fine player too


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## José Herring (Dec 12, 2022)

ZeroZero said:


> Do check out Piano with Warren on you tube. He is a Gospel Teacher, but don't let this worry you. He has plenty to offer. He does not cater for absolute beginners - so no this is what a chord is stuff, intermediate and advanced. He is a fine player too


Will do!


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## JimDiGritz (Dec 12, 2022)

With ❤️ love to everyone here, the variety of answers above are exactly why I'm so confused!

Don't bother learning them!
Learn them as a by-product of playing/composing, through osmosis
Learn them off by heart/rote
Learn them on the Staff!
Learn them on an instrument
Don't learn them on an instrument
Learn them verbally, sing them!

etc!

This seems like such a fundamental building block that I presumed that at some point in the past 300 years there would have been a well established, tried and tested process. A bit like every school child in the Western world has done the Times Table song, or sung the Alphabet song.

FWIW I do intend to learn all the Major keys (and therefore the major scales) by heart with instant recall and I'd like to be able to at least have a functional recall for the Nat. Minor keys (perhaps by 'cheating' through memorising the Relative Minor relationship and mentally re-ordering the notes... eg if I instantly recall that Emin is the Relative Minor to G Maj then I can reasonably quickly reorder the notes and put the F# in.)

I'm using a combination of brute force writing them out, playing them on the piano, saying them out loud and writing them on the staff. I'm not really clear if any of the above is completely wasted effort... not sure if I ever will know!!!!


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## AnhrithmonGelasma (Dec 12, 2022)

NekujaK said:


> I'm reminded of this amusing anectode:
> 
> A reporter visited Albert Einstien's home to interview him for an article. When the interview was finished and the reporter got up to leave, he asked if he could have Einstein's home phone number, in case he needed more details or had follow up questions. "Certainly," replied Einstein, and got up from his desk and retrieved a phone book from a shelf. After flipping through the pages, he located his phone number and gave it to the reporter. Somwhat puzzled, the reporter asked, "Don't you know your own phone number?", to which Einstein answered, "Why clutter my brain with trivial information when I know where to look it up."
> 
> ...


"The group of reporters waited while an Edison question, “What is the speed of sound?” was translated into German. Einstein’s answer was translated into English. “I don’t know offhand,” he said. “I don’t carry information in my mind that’s readily available in books.”

Told of Edison’s view that a knowledge of facts was vitally important, Einstein disagreed: *“*A person doesn’t need to go to college to learn facts. He can get them from books. The value of a liberal arts college education is that it trains the mind to think. And that’s something you can’t learn from textbooks. If a person had ability, a college education helps develop it.”"






Education Is Not the Learning of Facts, But the Training of the Mind To Think – Quote Investigator







quoteinvestigator.com


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## VSTHero (Dec 12, 2022)

Faced with similar confusion one of my teachers once said “all of it”. Or try a couple if you can find the time - you’ll get different benefits from different approaches and over time figure out which is most helpful for what your aims are. Similar to the subtleties of using a pick, string sizes, instrument setup - at a certain point, the real lesson/learning is on being confident in exploring and testing things. 

On a personal note; I found the best way to get where I wanted to go with scales was to compose using them; it helped me learn some of the potential of various modes and specific tones in them. It didn’t help me transpose instantly to a bunch of keys but I can quickly find any Lydian by that sharp 4, or the unique feel of Dorian, or how mixolydian is almost a sub genre song type for bluegrass.


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## Wensleydale (Dec 12, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> This seems like such a fundamental building block that I presumed that at some point in the past 300 years there would have been a well established, tried and tested process. A bit like every school child in the Western world has done the Times Table song, or sung the Alphabet song.


For much of the last 300 years, many people grew up in a household with a piano (or some sort of keyboard). Learning to play it was part of one’s education, and learning scales was a by-product of that.


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## VSTHero (Dec 12, 2022)

Another thought is the things we use are what we remember. So finding where these scales matter to what you are doing is really helpful. If it’s for improvising in Jazz, they likely matter in the context of scale patterns or actual idiomatic lines that provide the real vocabulary, or maybe their relationship to comping. 

If it’s for harmonic fields - creating or learning chord progressions tied to those scales is going to develop their meaning and long term retention in a different way.

If it’s for melodic phrases, textures, ostinatos; each will be its own angle that you learn. After a while, you’ll be able to recall them almost as a aftereffect of having used/explored them in so many ways. Then maybe some extra memorization might be layered on to build fluency - I tend to know these better in my go to keys than in the full range. 

Anyway, sorry for over posting here - I’m half talking to myself but it’s a great subject to explore.


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## AnhrithmonGelasma (Dec 12, 2022)

Wensleydale said:


> For much of the last 300 years, many people grew up in a household with a piano (or some sort of keyboard). Learning to play it was part of one’s education, and learning scales was a by-product of that.


And the lay-out of the traditional European keyboard is so cognitively wasteful that you basically need to memorize the keys if you want to learn to play from sheet music---or to go from composing on the piano to writing it out as sheet music. (In this respect the guitar---and the Linnstrument, and the Seaboard---are IMO huge improvements. Personally I first learned by literally writing the notes' names on the keyboard and singing them outloud. For sheet music in addition to the mnemonic acronyms I used a cheap iOS app to practice rapid recall for sight reading---there are probably similar apps for learning scales, possibly even optimized in terms of the latest science on learning....)

May be worth bearing in mind that some traditional forms of instruction include tedious, trying, and unnecessary tasks as a means of winnowing out less committed students (among other things)....

What are the practical uses of being able to immediately recall all the notes in a given key or mode? Convenience for understanding instruction, or discussing compositions in real time? Fluency with key changes and borrowed chords / notes?

For actually composing it seems like it might be more important to explicitly understand how the different keys relate in terms of moving through musical space?... in traditional Western classical the secondary dominant, modulating to different keys/modes, borrowing from nearby (or sometimes leaping to distant) keys/modes, etc. Of course most intended audiences already implicitly understand this without needing to know the names of the notes....


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## JimDiGritz (Dec 12, 2022)

AnhrithmonGelasma said:


> And the lay-out of the traditional European keyboard is so cognitively wasteful that you basically need to memorize the keys if you want to learn to play from sheet music---or to go from composing on the piano to writing it out as sheet music. (In this respect the guitar---and the Linnstrument, and the Seaboard---are IMO huge improvements. Personally I first learned by literally writing the notes' names on the keyboard and singing them outloud. For sheet music in addition to the mnemonic acronyms I used a cheap iOS app to practice rapid recall for sight reading---there are probably similar apps for learning scales, possibly even optimized in terms of the latest science on learning....)
> 
> *May be worth bearing in mind that some traditional forms of instruction include tedious, trying, and unnecessary tasks as a means of winnowing out less committed students (among other things)....*
> 
> ...


Ha! I spent many years learning traditional Wado ryu Karate from a Japanese Sensei. The first few months were bafflingly obtuse and to my 16 year old mind - not enjoyable... I almost quit when I failed a grading due to my little finger not being held at the correct angle... a senior Black belt pulled me aside and kind of alluded to this fact - the test was whether you would persevere....


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## The Retroblueman (Dec 12, 2022)

ZeroZero said:


> I have done this with nursery rhymes and American Folk tunes. It’s such an excellent exercise for piano and harmony. What it taught me was how to find nests of inverted chords - to voice lead, from one chord to the next. This is one of the most important skills for a composer.
> When you take a tune though 12 keys it can sound pretty odd in the far away keys.The notes of a chord can get muddy, or alternatively sound too high. I hardly ever play Ab in it's root Position for this reason. So, taking simple tunes through the keys, adapting chords as you go is great way to learn How to voice lead.
> I have Band in a Box here and this instead of a metronome. I’ll put in some classic changes and spend weeks on them until I can recognise them with my muscle memory and ears in all keys, starting at slow tempos, then speeding up. I try to integrate scale fragments and chromaticisms between two chord tones to. This way melodies abound
> 
> ...


Transposition always a useful skill - I once auditioned on keys for a blues/soul band, having been given a CD of the tunes they were playing by the singer- spent a week really nailing things but on the day turned out they were playing everything in different keys to the CD in part cos the guitarist had recently decided to tune down to Eb to be like Stevie Ray and Jimi - happy days!! (got the gig though - still not sure how - that tangentially led to me meeting my wife, which was nice😊)

That said I think there's probably something to be said for having a couple of keys remain a bit alien well into a composing career (not that I am particularly far in or that I would call what I do a "career") - I find my fingers tend to find and tread familiar territory in say, C major or Eb Major or D minor and I "use the force" for voice leading more than I actually think about things. Whereas, say, Ab major (me too!😊) will force me to think about theory and the stuff can end up being be a bit fresher with better thought out voicings/voices...


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## ZeroZero (Dec 12, 2022)

The Retroblueman said:


> Transposition always a useful skill - I once auditioned on keys for a blues/soul band, having been given a CD of the tunes they were playing by the singer- spent a week really nailing things but on the day turned out they were playing everything in different keys to the CD in part cos the guitarist had recently decided to tune down to Eb to be like Stevie Ray and Jimi - happy days!! (got the gig though - still not sure how - that tangentially led to me meeting my wife, which was nice😊)
> 
> That said I think there's probably something to be said for having a couple of keys remain a bit alien well into a composing career (not that I am particularly far in or that I would call what I do a "career") - I find my fingers tend to find and tread familiar territory in say, C major or Eb Major or D minor and I "use the force" for voice leading more than I actually think about things. Whereas, say, Ab major (me too!😊) will force me to think about theory and the stuff can end up being be a bit fresher with better thought out voicings/voices...


I once sat in live with a blues band, on sax, I asked them what key the number was in - they laughed they did not know! A lot of guitarist don't read music or even understand it, but play well. Usually it's in teh keys of the open strings EADGB or in C. 
I am comfortable in Ab I just prefer to avoid the mud. I transpose everything. You know when the hero in a cowboy movie takes on the gang? He goes for the hardest guy first. Similarly, starting in F# and learnnig that can often help.

Z


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## The Retroblueman (Dec 12, 2022)

ZeroZero said:


> I once sat in live with a blues band, on sax, I asked them what key the number was in - they laughed they did not know! A lot of guitarist don't read music or even understand it, but play well. Usually it's in teh keys of the open strings EADGB or in C.
> I am comfortable in Ab I just prefer to avoid the mud. I transpose everything. You know when the hero in a cowboy movie takes on the gang? He goes for the hardest guy first. Similarly, starting in F# and learnnig that can often help.
> 
> Z


No way man😉 - Eb Major = C minor = Beethoven = good. Db major and Gb Major = Debussy and Ravel and you get to do the sexy black key glisses.

Ab major is just this stupid uncomfortable halfway house of horror! I wouldn't say it's "muddy" though - more "sugary sweet". That said, I love Chopin Op.25.1.


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## AnhrithmonGelasma (Dec 12, 2022)

The Retroblueman said:


> No way man😉 - Eb Major = C minor = Beethoven = good. Db major and Gb Major = Debussy and Ravel and you get to do the sexy black key glisses.
> 
> Ab major is just this stupid uncomfortable halfway house of horror! I wouldn't say it's "muddy" though - more "sugary sweet". That said, I love Chopin Op.25.1.


Of course Beethoven didn't use equal temperament... so the difference between the keys was more pronounced: "... music composed in another temperament-era needs those era-specific tonal resources to display its full character. Something is lost when the temperament is radically changed from that which the composer used, to something that is an "average " for convenience. Something important is lost when a Beethoven piano sonata is performed on an equally tempered keyboard. That something is "The Character of the Keys", also called, "key colors"."






Historical Temperament Tunings on the Modern Concert Piano


Beethoven In The Temperaments- Historical Tunings on the Modern Concert Grand




www.piano-tuners.org


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## ZeroZero (Dec 12, 2022)

The Retroblueman said:


> No way man😉 - Eb Major = C minor = Beethoven = good. Db major and Gb Major = Debussy and Ravel and you get to do the sexy black key glisses.
> 
> Ab major is just this stupid uncomfortable halfway house of horror! I wouldn't say it's "muddy" though - more "sugary sweet". That said, I love Chopin Op.25.1.


You misunderstand me. All keys are find, Ab is fine, but I prefer to voice the left hand triad from the third. Alternatively leave out the third


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## The Retroblueman (Dec 12, 2022)

ZeroZero said:


> You misunderstand me. All keys are find, Ab is fine, but I prefer to voice the left hand triad from the third. Alternatively leave out the third


No- I got your gist - I just have keys I find irksome (and I don't know why) - mainly Ab, A and E major - generally feel a bit off when playing in them, but I do like their relative minors - go figure!


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## tc9000 (Dec 12, 2022)

Ahhh so much here to reflect on. Great post OP! And so many great responses. Oh god I've got so much to learn hahah. But thats _good... _

I think I have all the libraries I need, and it's a weird feeling when you still look at new stuff but you know you don't really _need_ it... but it's good to know that will never happen with knowledge.

Sorry - please carry on 😂 just lapping this all up.


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## JimDiGritz (Dec 13, 2022)

So an idea that I'm considering is to chunk the Major and it's relative Minor scale simultaneously.

Since I need to be able to know/recall a Maj scales Relative minor AND learn all the Maj/Min Scales this seems logical.

I'm drilling them by rote on paper, by the # of sharps & flats, the specific #s and Flats (eg A Major = C#, F# and G#) their position on the CoF (which I almost already know by heart), their notation position (again my notation identification is getting pretty good) and playing them forwards, backwards on the piano.

Does this make sense eg this week A Major and F# Minor? Or perhaps you've tried this and it was too confusing to learn identical scales in different sequences


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## Wensleydale (Dec 13, 2022)

JimDiGritz said:


> So an idea that I'm considering is to chunk the Major and it's relative Minor scale simultaneously.
> 
> Since I need to be able to know/recall a Maj scales Relative minor AND learn all the Maj/Min Scales this seems logical.


This is the blind leading the blind, but, fwiw, I think it depends which minor scale you’re trying to learn. The natural minor has more in common with the relative major than the melodic minor does. If I were starting again I think I might learn each major scale together with its parallel melodic minor — for instance, C major and C melodic minor. But hopefully you’ll get a response from someone who knows what they’re talking about.


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## Vik (Dec 13, 2022)

ZeroZero said:


> The verb "to know" means something different in music.


This. 'Know' can mean 'have knowledge about' or 'am familiar with' – or, at best "so familiar with that one can handle the the situation well enough'. In the case of developing scale-fluidness, it's the latter which matters.


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## MeloKeyz (Dec 25, 2022)

Look! I don't wanna really sound like a teacher here but truth is that you will memorize scales when you practice a lot until you see their shapes as visible as the sun on the keyboard or fretboard. Just apply the same whole-half patterns of major, minor, modes,..etc on all 12 keys until they become visible to you without even thinking or looking. Same goes with chords !


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