# Big Band expansion for staffpad?



## Martin S (Jul 19, 2020)

Just dreaming/thinking out loud.... Being a jazz/upright bass-player and playing in big bands for decades, and also dabbling a little with big band arrangement, I'm hoping for Staffpad to port over a BB library at some point (I know, I know - they're extremely busy right now and for quite some time to come..).

But, as dreaming is 'free of charge', there's no holding me back 

If Staffpad eventually port over a BB library, I really do hope they'll settle on this:

https://fablesounds.com/broadway-lites/#1485576208611-45c66285-80ca

The competition brands don't even come close; this is - by far - the best sounding BB library available today. And, since version 2.0, they've already done some of the hard work for notation products, possibly making it easier for the Staffpad team to port it over (provided Fablesounds will allow a collaboration) :

*"NOTATION SOFTWARE SUPPORT*
With version 2.0, “Notation mode” has been added to all of the Broadway Lites instruments, to enable notation programs to communicate with Broadway Lites and use it for playback of scores, including all included articulations and dynamics. The new Notation mode also enables integration with Cubase Expression maps. This was not previously possible due to the unique articulation switching system in Broadway Lites. The new Notation Mode uses an alternative system of key-switching that is more in line with the way notation programs operate. (full documentation in the user manual)."

As this is only a 15GB lib (Kontakt player), it probably is doable. And the included instruments will cover appr. 99% of most written BB arrangements. AND Staffpad will instantly become THE go-to application for Big Band arrangers..

Do you think I should put in an email request with Staffpad, or is it likely to 'drown' in the sheer amount of requests/tickets they are (probably) receiving lately?


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## Saxer (Jul 19, 2020)

One more dreamer here!


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## wcreed51 (Jul 19, 2020)

People say Glory Days is coming


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## Martin S (Jul 19, 2020)

Glory Days isn't bad, either. Although I still prefer fablesounds, Glory Days would be a welcome addition (and would make sense, as Staffpad already have a working relationship with O.T.)


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## doubleattack (Jul 19, 2020)

wcreed51 said:


> People say Glory Days is coming



pity; would be fine to have BBB for Staffpad


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## Saxer (Jul 19, 2020)

For jazz writing the swing factor is important. It's a big task to get the written samples to swing. It's not only the timing between even and "more than triplet" eighths depending on the tempo and style. There are also the slightly more stressed offbeats in eighth note patterns. In swing notation a quarter note on a beat without any articulation is played staccato. Syncopes get accents though they are not notated. Single rhythmic accents have a more even swing feel than chains of eighths notes. So it's a completely different set of rules for the playback engine.
But StaffPad already did wonders with their playback engine. I think if any notation app is capable of swing playback in the near future it will be StaffPad.


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## doubleattack (Jul 19, 2020)

Saxer said:


> For jazz writing the swing factor is important. It's a big task to get the written samples to swing. It's not only the timing between even and "more than triplet" eighths depending on the tempo and style. There are also the slightly more stressed offbeats in eighth note patterns. In swing notation a quarter note on a beat without any articulation is played staccato. Syncopes get accents though they are not notated. Single rhythmic accents have a more even swing feel than chains of eighths notes. So it's a completely different set of rules for the playback engine.
> But StaffPad already did wonders with their playback engine. I think if any notation app is capable of swing playback in the near future it will be StaffPad.



true; I always wonder about the dozens of possibilities for different swing playback in Sibelius - but nothing really works...


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## Martin S (Jul 19, 2020)

Just had a listen to some Glorydays demos and walk throughs, and although it might work ok for tutti pads and maybe even shout choruses, melodic solo lines just sounds way too MIDI-like for my liking. In that regard, I think BBB Lites sounds a whole lot better.

And maybe I'm just nitpicking, but...hoping not to offend; where the BBB Lites sound like actual jazz players being sampled, the Glorydays (especially saxes) has the timbre of a classically trained saxplayer, trying to sound 'jazzy'. I could be wrong, and if so, my apologies. But there's more jazz-cohesive-ness in the BBB Lites library


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## doubleattack (Jul 19, 2020)

Martin S said:


> ...
> And maybe I'm just nitpicking, but...hoping not to offend; where the BBB Lites sound like actual jazz players being sampled, the Glorydays (especially saxes) has the timbre of a classically trained saxplayer, trying to sound 'jazzy'. I could be wrong, and if so, my apologies. But there's more jazz-cohesive-ness in the BBB Lites library



No, I'm knowing two of this sax-players personally, since we played for a long time often together, they are excellent and exceptional jazz players; so it must be a conceptual deciding of the maker of this library - and some unfortunate decisions in the audio editing... I like the sound of BBB much more too.


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## Martin S (Jul 19, 2020)

doubleattack said:


> No, I'm knowing two of this sax-players personally, since we played for a long time often together, they are excellent and exceptional jazz players; so it must be a conceptual deciding of the maker of this library - and some unfortunate decisions in the audio editing... I like the sound of BBB much more too.



I stand corrected. My sincere apologies to these musicians, I had no intention of belittling their skills or musicianship. I agree that the makers of this library hasn't managed to bring out the true 'jazz-vibe' of the players they brought into the sessions..it seems that BBB comes much closer in achieving that vibe/soul/sound and realism. 

Well, if Glorydays is ported to Staffpad, it's sorta ok to sketch out ideas, I guess. Then export XML/MIDI to DAW, and use Broadway Lites via Kontakt for added realism/proper sound. Not ideal workflow, but doable...


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## doubleattack (Jul 19, 2020)

No need for apologize. It's hard to figure out the quality of the players from snippets of audio signals. Hearing the samples I could only hard recognize the - for me in real life very well known sound of these instrumental players. 🧐


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## Martin S (Jul 25, 2020)

As Saxer said earlier, the crucial part of playing back Big Band/Jazz scores in any notation program, would be its ability to playback the score with the proper swing feel.

A very difficult task for the Staffpad engineers, but since it's very likely that OT Glory Days is being ported to Staffpad (maybe even close to release?), one must assume that in order to get the most out of Glory Days samples and articulations, the playback engine will also have to adapt somehow, right?

Which leads me to think about an extra automation layer in Staffpad, in which you can determine some +/- delay per note, in order to have the note play slightly later/earlier on the beat (similar to the Delay function in Logic's 'Region Parameter'-box - or similar function in other DAW's).

I'm imagining an Automation Layer in Staffpad similar to the existing Pan Layer with the curves functionality of the Expression Layer : Each staff has a centered line @ zero (like Pan) and dragging the line upwards will delay the note(s) after the beat (x Millisecs), and dragging the line downwards will push the note(s) slightly ahead of the beat (x Millisecs).

I think this would be an awesome addition to Staffpad and give the user much more control of the playback, especially in scores with higher tempos (not just Jazz/Big Band, btw) or in Jazz/BB scores that requires a heavy Laid Back-feel ( a la Basie-style). Even in more classical orientated scores, this feature would provide a little more control in how the individual notes/samples of different libraries behave during playback (especially when mix-/matching different libraries in the same score; or even on the same stave/staff, for that matter)

It would definitely be on my wishlist


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## jadi (Jul 25, 2020)

Martin S said:


> As Saxer said earlier, the crucial part of playing back Big Band/Jazz scores in any notation program, would be its ability to playback the score with the proper swing feel.
> 
> A very difficult task for the Staffpad engineers, but since it's very likely that OT Glory Days is being ported to Staffpad (maybe even close to release?), one must assume that in order to get the most out of Glory Days samples and articulations, the playback engine will also have to adapt somehow, right?
> 
> ...


I agree it would be a valuable addition. In the philosophy to create reasonable mock ups, it would be a great thing if you are be able to insert text like "swing" and some notation with notes as you see on existing scores. 
Also the tempo automation layer doesn't work to well. The tempo marking is very difficult to pinpoint. It goes from 60 to 100 very quick, you can't really see what you are doing creating and connecting points is almost impossible.


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## jonathanparham (Jul 25, 2020)

There is swing currently in StaffPad by typing swing at the top of the score than normale to change back. However, I think getting the rhythm right is going to be tricky.

I'm ready for Glorydays and any other developer who wants to port things to StaffPad. I'm getting spoiled not firing up the DAW and loading a template all the time. lol


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