# Question about mixing in audio vs. midi



## MarcusMaximus (Apr 27, 2019)

I have a slave setup with Logic on a Mac and VePro on a PC. Just finished a big orchestral piece and about to mix it. I usually like to bounce all tracks to audio (using bounce in place) and mix with those as this has a lot of advantages, like saving resources and enabling easy clip-gain editing etc. Previously this worked fine when I was doing everything within Logic, no slave or VePro. However with the slave setup I’m now finding that the bounced tracks end up with problems such as many sustained notes having the attack only, the rest is cut off. This is when using Hollywood Orchestra with Play 5, which seems to be a well-documented problem. Apparently Play 6 fixes this but I haven’t upgraded and am loath to do so mid-project. This is obviously because the slave houses my template and I don’t want to risk destabilizing it at this stage.

I haven’t tried real-time or online bouncing yet but I imagine that should work ok. The problem is it will take ages to do that for every track and I don’t want to group them into stems at this stage cos I still need to work with the individual tracks. So I’m wondering what is the best way to approach this: mix in midi, take the leap and upgrade Play to hopefully enable proper off-line bouncing, or render every track to audio in real time? Or is there something else I’m missing?

Any thoughts or suggestions would be welcome. Thanks.


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## germancomponist (Apr 27, 2019)

I do not have any "Play" lib, but I think the best way for you is real-time-bouncing.


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 27, 2019)

Ok thanks. That will take a long time per track but if that’s what it takes..


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## Divico (Apr 28, 2019)

MarcusMaximus said:


> Ok thanks. That will take a long time per track but if that’s what it takes..


If you bounce a lot of tracks at once this doesnt take that much time. Id update Play. I had the same problem in the past, they fixed it at some point.


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 28, 2019)

But surely if I bounce multiple tracks at once in real time they will come out as one consolidated track? I'm not aware of an option to do a 'bounce in place' on a per-track basis in real time. It appears to be only an off-line process but I'll have to check that again.

In terms of updating Play I absolutely will but would you say it would be safe enough to do that at this point, i.e. mid-project? Can I rely on it to keep all the settings, volume levels etc. that I have painstakingly made intact during the update?

Thanks for your input.


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## JohnG (Apr 28, 2019)

Hmm.

I try to mix quite a bit in midi in order to be able, later, to print at least some groupings. Those can be big (such as "all brass") or narrow (putting, say, trumpets, FHNs, trombones, and low brass on separate tracks). Some people take it further and put shorts and longs on separate tracks -- I do that for strings, but not for brass. I have 8 or 10 splits set up for percussion, then a final stem for each family (strings brass vocal percussion synths FX etc.)

I don't know if that helps you or not.

Kind regards,

John


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 28, 2019)

Thanks John. What you describe makes sense however the way I prefer to mix is with each individual track as audio rather than with any groupings, at least initially. To be honest, like a lot of people I think I do quite a lot of the 'mixing' as I create the piece anyway so I've probably done as much as I need to with the midi tracks at this stage (but isn't there always more tweaking I could do..?!) I have adapted Jake Jackson's approach from a Thinkspace course I did some time ago so that's where my bias for audio tracks comes from and it has worked pretty well so far. However if I could have the same flexibility and ease editing the midi as I find with the audio then I might well be able to mix the whole thing in midi, or at least up to the final stages. I'll have to experiment a bit more. The slave setup has completely changed the way I work because it is so much more reliable and has enabled my system to cope with large projects without having to freeze most of the tracks. However the downside is this inability to cope with off-line bouncing-in-place.


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## jmauz (Apr 28, 2019)

I have a similar setup to yours (except for the usage of Play) and my DAW is Cubase but that shouldn't matter. I never print anything when mixing. I simply have the audio outputs from all of my MIDI instruments organized and grouped in my mix window as if they were audio tracks. I'll apply EQ, dynamics, FX, etc. to these channels as needed. 

My groups output to 'stem' busses should I need stems (in Cubase I can do a batch bounce of these outputs). If not, I just leave these alone as they output to my mix buss. 

Once I'm happy with the mix I bounce out whatever mixes I need (full mix, stems, etc.).

So regardless of what I need to deliver I never have to print individual MIDI tracks to an audio track.

Of course, I am not a mix engineer so I'm sure there is a better way. That said, this process has worked for me for years and I've always been able to quickly mix projects regardless of size.


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 28, 2019)

Yes I could do that, i.e. apply all the effects directly to the midi tracks but I'm not sure my system would cope with that without choking up. I've already had to freeze a couple of tracks which use instruments that aren't on the slave due to the fact that I'm using two Logic Drummer tracks in the project and if I have either of them selected during playback I tend to get system overloads (a Logic thing!) and so on. So part of the preference for audio is to free up my system so that I can apply reverb, delay, EQ etc. to the tracks without issues but it is also because I find manipulating the audio so much easier. For example, if a phrase on one instrument is too loud or soft I can simply make that into a region and adjust the clip gain rather than having to go into the midi track and change the expression level or do volume automation or whatever, all much more time-consuming.

However, it's definitely a case of each to their own when it comes to mixing. I'm sure there are many people who would never dream of rendering all the tracks, or perhaps would never have to due to the power of their system. Equally I'm sure there are many people who swear by mixing in audio only.


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## Kent (Apr 28, 2019)

Are you using the Logic/VEP "multiport" template?


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 28, 2019)

No, I've steered clear of that based on a lot of advice! I am using the single instance-per-instrument approach that has often been recommended for Logic users. Each instance contains all the articulations for that instrument. I always work decoupled and I use ARTzID to manage the articulations etc. It all works pretty seamlessly.

I just tried a realtime bounce on one track and it worked fine so the problem is only with offline bouncing, which is the nature of the bounce-in-place process. No way to do that in realtime. It involves a few extra steps such as placing the audio track back in the project but that's no big deal I suppose. All quite time-consuming though, to play through the whole project in real time for each and every track - there are a lot of them as you can imagine! I haven't yet found a way to bounce multiple tracks in real time and get them to show up as separate tracks but I suppose it's probably down to sorting out the routing some more..


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 28, 2019)

a couple comments.


The VEP multiport macro works a lot better now then it used to, after I fixed it. it gets a bad rap because of two reasons, ONE, it does not fare well with artzID which thrives well itself on one-track-per-VEP-instance and doesn't really support use of any multi-port macros. 

And TWO, VSL released their multiport macro templates a few years back with bugs that made everyone frustrated, and never resolved them, instead saying "wait for AU3". However the version that I fixed works quite well, but I would not recommend if you are using Artzid.


Bouncing midi tracks to audio is always a good idea with any project at some point regardless of CPU usage because ultimately down the road if you reopen an old project you don't want to have to depend on on your instrument tracks playing back exactly the same way as they did in 2001, or whatever. Bouncing to audio tracks gives you something you can mix later and no concerns about the software instrument having changed or become incompatible or something. Especially if you're using VEP...what if VEP changes or the interaction in some way...no promises your midi track will do what it did in 2001. I say once you have the midi track performance the way you want with the instrument library you plan to use, burn it to audio. Keep the midi around in case you need to update the performance or decide to use a different software instrument.


Aside from the above, there can be some performance advantage to burning midi tracks to audio tracks, but my 2010 macpro is easily able to playback 100+ tracks of VSL instruments directly from midi, with plenty of CPU space to breathe...so..for me that's rarely a concern in terms of CPU, and certainly doesn't justify the manual labor to do it. But for point#2 above, its still not a bad idea to do it eventually.


Freezing is a very handy feature in LPX, but you pretty much have to stick to one track per VEP instance to do that, one of the arguments for that approach.


If you use any kind of environment instruments to route to your software instruments, such as is the case with the VEP Multiport templates, then you have to real time bounce, and you get no argument from me, its a PITA and time consuming in LogicPro today.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 28, 2019)

I think the only way to automate doing real time bounce on say 100 tracks, would be to write some kind of Keyboard Maestro macro or something of this nature.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 28, 2019)

The other comment I want to make is about where to "mix". In the midi track, in the instrument or audio track, etc. 

I personally think its a good approach to automate the "performance" in the midi track. That is pretty much all your midi events and CC automation, EXCLUDING in most cases CC7, which I think should be left set to 127 at all times unless you're using it to balance out volume between articulations or something, but then probably it will have very few changes needed. Set it and forget it on CC7. CC11 and other "performance" oriented controllers used for "performance" dynamics...that all belongs in the midi track. Also, if you're using a software instrument that has performance oriented changes such as filter sweeps, etc.. automate that in the midi or instrument track.

The actual mix...automate on the audio track. Well if you're not bouncing it to an audio track, then you automate it on the same instrument channel you were using for the midi stuff mentioned above, except you're automating the channel fader (not CC7), pan, EQ's, etc.. as they exist on that instrument channel. 

But if you bounce to audio, then you could put that kind of mix automation on that audio track, and keep it conceptually seperated from the midi performance.


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 28, 2019)

Thanks Dewdman, will comment more on what you've written tomorrow as it's late at night here.

Of course it's easy enough to 'bounce' multiple tracks at once as I've just discovered, or rather remembered! It's just a matter of setting up the routing so that the individual midi tracks' outputs go to their respective audio track inputs and then recording to those tracks. So I could theoretically record all the tracks in one real-time pass if I had them all set up but I'll probably do it (orchestral) section by section to save on resources. Do-able but a bit of a pain to set up so if anyone has a more elegant solution I'm all ears!


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 29, 2019)

Ok so I set up enough audio tracks for the wind section and recorded directly to those. Involved a load more buses and aux tracks but seems to have worked fine. So I’m going to do the whole project that way as I do want those audio tracks for mixing. I’d love to find a less time-consuming way to print the individual midi tracks to audio however probably on balance it’s better anyway to do that in real time. At least I’ve found a way to do it with multiple tracks at the same time.

I don’t need the multiport solution as the approach I use works fine, also I use ARTzID so that’s that really. I have used freezing in the past on whole projects just to get them to play back but that is no longer an issue with the slave setup, except for a couple of Mac-based software instrument tracks which seem to choke up resources during playback. Yes, I do all my CC automation on the midi tracks. Again, ARTzID comes into its own here because it allows you to apply any CC automation to all articulations within any one instrument. Brilliant.


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 30, 2019)

Oh dear more problems! I've just checked some of the audio files I recorded from the midi tracks and there's an Oboe ostinato which sounds different in the audio version. The midi sounds smooth and the notes all connected whereas in the audio the notes sound more separate, as if the player were playing a sort of slurred staccato. In simpler terms, it's as if the notes are being cut off before they finish. This was what was happening with the offline bounce-in-place process except much more dramatically in that most of the sustained notes were being cut off. I've tried to bounce just that oboe track on its own in real time but I end up with the same result.

I'd post an example of what I'm hearing except I can't get a reliable recording of how the midi sounds - that's the problem! It seems that bouncing, or recording individual midi tracks to their audio counterparts, isn't working properly for some reason. This is obviously very problematic as I seem to be unable to properly render either individual tracks or the whole project to audio, even in real time. It must be some issue between Play, VEPro and Logic but I can't figure it out. Can anyone shed any light on this by any chance?


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 30, 2019)

That is very interesting and I would definitely like to hear whatever you figure out or if you have some example project we can look at and try to reproduce here.


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## Henu (Apr 30, 2019)

I think that this sounds completely possible, having something probably to do with sloppy coding somewhere. As Dewdman said, the easiest way to check it out would be if someone would have the same midi file you're using and the same library.

Not trying to hog your topic, but I have also encountered an issue in Cubase where offline-exporting BWW instrument tracks utilizing different midi channels for different articulations tends to leave a TON of hanging notes to the outputted audio file while the VST track plays completely fine in real time when listening the project in Cubase. Still haven't figured out how to tackle it, but in that sort of sense I can understand your frustration and am also interested to find out what could cause it for you.


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 30, 2019)

Thanks guys. The thing is this never happened when I was doing everything on the one machine. All audio, whether bounced in realtime or offline, sounded exactly the same as the original midi track. It's only since I've been using the slave/VEPro setup that this issue has arisen. And I'm only noticing it now because this is the first project on that setup that I've got to the point of mixing/bouncing, i.e. the first time I've had to render tracks to audio. Interestingly, other tracks that I've checked are fine, as is the rest of that oboe track. It seems to be the fast ostinato figure that's throwing things off. I'll listen through the rest of the tracks to see how they turned out. 

Perhaps this is related to the documented issue with Play 5. In which case the solution would be to update Play to version 6 which is supposed to have fixed these kinds of issues. However that takes me back to the risk of screwing up the existing Play settings in my template mid-project. I've posted this question re. safety on the Soundsonline forum but so far no replies.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 30, 2019)

Just a little side note. I'm just ramping up with VePro, but one of the things I've messed around with a lot is the ET score mockup from VSL's website, as a way to see what VEpro is capable of (and all the VSL instruments). In theory it should work perfectly, though I had to take their midi file and create an LPX project, they originally made it for Cubase.

It generally sounds fantastic, but recently I started noticing some weird notes dropping out and I started looking at it more deeply and figured out something was screwy with overlapping legato notes..it was not reproducing them correctly....it would drop the second and third notes entirely and weird stuff like that. I do not know if ViPro, or VePro, or LogicPro...or some other Pro...is responsible for the problem....I haven't had time to dig into it with a microscope, but I plan to eventually. I have it running on top of my multiport macro template also, which could also be the culrpit, but something funny is going on there.

Its also interesting that Cubase is dropping NoteOff's on channelized events..would like to hear more about that project Henu. Were you using expression maps for the channelizing or separate cubase tracks for each articulation? I'm working through my own Articulation Script in LogicPro and basically one of the issues that came up is for channelizing, its not always easy to make sure the NoteOff's go to the same channel as the NoteOn's. Especially when there are overlapping notes. I've worked through it reasonably well in my own LogicPro script, but no idea what Cubase does to make sure the NoteOff events are channelized also through an expression map, or why the problem would be intermittent. 

Anyway, we are dealing with rather complicated setups for this kind of work, and everyone has slightly different workflows, so sometimes its really hard to diagnose what might be happening.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 30, 2019)

The advantage to bouncing to audio is that you know your sessions will open up 20 years from now, when all the MIDI instruments you have today will be gone, your computers will be dead and gone, etc.

I rarely do it.


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 30, 2019)

Yes indeed but apart from that I find it much easier to mix with audio tracks rather than midi for several reasons. It also suits the way I learned to mix, in particular orchestral material, and it fits well with my established workflow. Now maybe this old dog needs to learn some new (midi) tricks but I'd rather keep doing it that way rather than have to change because of some software glitch!

However if I can't trust the rendering process at this stage then I'll never be able to bounce even the final version to audio, which must be done eventually! Unless I actually record the output from Logic in some other way outside of the programme..

I'm trying to change the streaming settings within Play as there's some suggestion that that can make a difference. Will try it out and report back.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 30, 2019)

this sounds like a solvable problem. Need to figure out why the bounced tracks sound different and perhaps adjust workflow. I tend to doubt this is a bug in LPX, but never know.


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## MarcusMaximus (Apr 30, 2019)

No I don't think it's a Logic issue, at least not on its own, because as I said this didn't happen when I was doing everything within Logic.

I tried adjusting the streaming setting in Play to the max (which means little or no streaming from disc) but that doesn't seem to allow the midi to play properly, at least that ostinato does not play smoothly at that setting. I have a decent SSD on the slave so streaming shouldn't really be an issue anyway. However it was mentioned previously on the other forum as a possible fix for this sort of problem.


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## Henu (Apr 30, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> Its also interesting that Cubase is dropping NoteOff's on channelized events..would like to hear more about that project Henu. Were you using expression maps for the channelizing or separate cubase tracks for each articulation?



Yep, expression maps. I have all my articulations on different midi channels inside Kontakt which works marvellously with pretty much any other library _but _Berlin Woodwinds- particularly Bassoon 1 from the new Revive being the worst offender. It screams NoteOff for me, but yet I'm still to figure out why it's so random instead of happening all the time.


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## OleJoergensen (May 1, 2019)

As a test, you can save your Play instruments, download and install Play 6 and open the saved instruments in Play 6 to see if it works. If it doesn’t, uninstall Play 6 and reinstall Play 5.
As I recall, I had the experience that Play 6 works better then Play 5, when I updated long time ago...

When I work with audio files- the mix/ mastering, I open a new Logic session and import al audio files. It is one more work step, but for me it makes it more easy to overview.


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## MarcusMaximus (May 1, 2019)

Thanks Ole. I figure I'm going to have to bite the bullet and update Play to see if that improves things. So if I save the instruments separately to the ones already installed, that should save the adjustments I have made to things like the overall levels (within Play), marcato sample volumes etc. as well? I really don't want to lose all those settings, thus my hesitation. Also, I have been updating Play through the Installation Centre for the last few years so I don't have a separately downloaded version of 5 and they no longer have it available on their support page, only 4 and I don't want to have to go back to that. So unless there's some way to revert within the Installation Centre (pretty sure there isn't) it looks like updating would be a one-way-street for me. Another reason I am nervous to go there mid-project. Looks like I'm running out of choices though..


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## Dewdman42 (May 1, 2019)

Backup everything first then give it a try. It will probably be fine


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## MarcusMaximus (May 1, 2019)

Okay will do, fingers crossed..


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## OleJoergensen (May 1, 2019)

I hope it will work well! Let us know....
By the way, have you contacted Lorenz (moderator) at East west forum, he is experienced and helpful....


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## MarcusMaximus (May 1, 2019)

I've posted on the support forum there which he and others frequent but so far no-one has replied. I'll do this update and if that doesn't solve the issue I'll maybe contact him directly. Will certainly report back once I've updated.

Actually I've since discovered that I do have a copy of the installer for Play 5.0.6, the latest version so between that and a back-up of the VEPro server project for my template, I should be covered in case I do need to revert.


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## MarcusMaximus (May 1, 2019)

Well the update seems to have gone fine in that it preserved all the settings within my template. It hasn't entirely solved the problem though. The recordings I'm getting of that track are certainly closer to the sound of the midi than they were but now there is sometimes a difference between the simple playback of that track and the playback of the same track while I'm recording it to an audio track, or if I do a realtime bounce with that track soloed. All offline bouncing including bounce-in-place and track freezing are a no-no with notes being cut off all the time. I imagine this is to do with the whole slave/VEPro/Logic setup - it seemingly can only process a recording in real time. At least with Play anyway.

I've done multiple tests and tried all sorts of variations - you know the drill! - and I've had most success in terms of the audio accurately replicating the midi by raising the sample cache setting in Play by one (to a setting of 3) and then doing a realtime bounce with the oboe track soloed. It seems to be a bit random though. Sometimes it works fine and other times the midi doesn't sound right, even when just playing back, no recording or bouncing. It goes a bit out of time or almost drops a note or whatever. This didn't happen with Play 5 during simple playback which seemed more reliable. I'm not going to revert to 5 though as I think the full solution to all this is not really to do with the Play version as such. Quite what it is remains a mystery for now though. I'll do more testing tomorrow but I may end up having to compromise and accept a 'good enough' rendering on some tracks. Not ideal though.

Thanks for all the support and encouragement guys. Appreciated.


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## Dewdman42 (May 1, 2019)

I have play and vep. If you want to send me a simple LPX project that exhibits this I will try to replicate it here


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## Dewdman42 (May 1, 2019)

I don’t think you should have to accept good enough rendering! Let’s figure it out


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## MarcusMaximus (May 1, 2019)

Thanks Dewdman. I’ll do that tomorrow once I see how it all performs again. Yeah it would be great to get to the root of this.


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## OleJoergensen (May 1, 2019)

I agree, it has to work perfectly. 
Is it al libraries you are experiencing this problem or only one, ex. like woodwinds?
Just a thought, do you have windows defender scanning drives turned on?
Also do you have firewall on Mac turned on?


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## MarcusMaximus (May 2, 2019)

Just getting back to this now. You're both right, any compromise is not really acceptable. 

I will check the other libraries and instruments. I will also check what's running on both computers in terms of security, including what you have mentioned Ole. I will report back once I've looked into all this. Thanks again.


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## MarcusMaximus (May 2, 2019)

Been testing things out extensively for hours. I'll try and summarise what I've found - it seems pretty strange, to me anyway.

First of all, I have both the firewall on the Mac turned on and Microsoft Security Essentials running on the PC. The firewall was configured correctly as far as I know when I was setting up VEPro however I did turn it off, as well as MSE and also disconnected both machines from the internet. It made no difference. Windows Defender is turned off by default.

Now the audio recording is sounding the same as the midi. However the weirdness I've discovered is that the problem seems to occur only with legato patches. It's the same with multiple instruments across the different sections within Hollywood Orchestra. What's even more weird is the track plays back and records fine only if it (the midi track) is selected. If I have another track selected while playing it back, then it plays back all wrong. That's whether I select a midi or an audio track. This happens 99% of the time, i.e. occasionally it plays back ok with another track selected.

Here is what I'm talking about. The first example was recorded with the midi track selected while the second one was with the audio track I was recording to selected.





I repeat, the _only _difference between both recordings was which track was selected. I've confirmed that this happens in the current Logic project, in a new project based on my template and also in a completely new project, i.e. not a template and with absolutely nothing added except one midi track with VEPro on it in order to connect to the server on the PC, the oboe track imported from my project and one audio track so that I can select it for testing. I did not use any scripters on the midi track so no ARTZid. I'm exhausted now but tomorrow I might try it on the empty project with a track created from scratch rather than imported. I'll also try it with a new Server project because in all these tests I used the same Server project as I use for the main template.

Now maybe this makes sense to someone but I have to admit I'm baffled. Officially.

Edit: I've fixed those two tracks so that they play properly now. They are louder and they start straight away. Apologies, should have done that earlier.


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## Dewdman42 (May 2, 2019)

I'm away from my studio and the bit you recorded is too low volume to hear on my computer speakers so I can't comment about the recording

Do you have the Event Input plugin being used by any chance?

In LogicPro audio prefs try changing the multithreaded parameter to "Playback".

without seeing your project its difficult to diagnose.


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## MarcusMaximus (May 2, 2019)

Ok thanks. Yes I know it’s very low volume, it’s straight from a very quiet section in the piece. I should’ve made it louder and can correct that tomorrow if it simply can’t be heard.

No, no Event Input plugin. Will check the multithreading setting and possibly send the project, or part of it, tomorrow as it’s very late here.


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## MarcusMaximus (May 3, 2019)

Yes that makes sense, although I'd have to do some testing to determine how audible the changes in room as opposed to instrument levels actually are when adjusted. Worth exploring though for sure.

Been working all day so just about to wrestle some more with this strange issue regarding having to select legato tracks to make them play properly. Not sure there's much point in sending the project file because as I said the same thing is happening in a brand new project with nothing in it except the offending track. Unless I send that track but first I want to see what happens if I create a new track rather than import it. At this point I'm thinking the problem is most likely to do with the way the Mac and the PC, or Logic and VEPro, are talking to each other, especially when Play is involved, rather than anything going on in Logic itself. However I guess anything is possible.


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## Dewdman42 (May 3, 2019)

Its somewhat academic though. We already use all manner of artificial effects while sculpting our sound. You can do everything "wrong" and you'll know if it sounds bad. if it sounds good, then there is nothing wrong with the approach, including freezing tracks with burned in room sound.

If you really think about it, what is the difference between sending a dry signal with a higher or lower signal, through an ER generator....or adjusting the level after it has been sent through the ER generator? It only makes a difference if the ER generator is doing something different to the sound depending on the level. Will the early reflections be different for a low volume sound compared to a high volume sound src? Possibly theoretically, or maybe not, but I don't you will notice much difference in actual practice of mixing it all together. There are other things happening in mixing though, EQ, etc. So this will depend on what you're trying to do whether you need the close dry sound to work with in addition to the ER'd sound. If you only have burned in samples, then your options or more limited. But I think in many cases you can adjust the ER'd room sound on an instrument by instrument basis...and while it may not be strictly the way a real orchestra would be recored with real engineers, if it sounds good...fine by me.


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## Dewdman42 (May 3, 2019)

MarcusMaximus said:


> Not sure there's much point in sending the project file because as I said the same thing is happening in a brand new project with nothing in it except the offending track. Unless I send that track but first I want to see what happens if I create a new track rather than import it.



If you have an extremely simple project with just one track having the problem that is even better. Please PM me the project and I'll have a look at it.


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## Dewdman42 (May 3, 2019)

Labor in Vain,

Yes really you are being academic. If that works for you then keep doing it! But its not the only way to get good sound. Who cares about whether its "realistic"? Half of what you hear from hollywood is not!

If that is your aim, to realistically and accurately reproduce a particular location, then I agree with you. I use MirPro and that is one reason why I like it, but even in MirPro there is no rule that says you have to conform to anything in the name of realistic accuracy of the physical universe. The goal is to make good sounding music and you can definitely get great sounding, orchestral results..without getting so far into the weeds that you feel its not possible to bounce your instrument tracks prior to mix down.

EW HO is a classic example of how its possible to get great sound using sounds with ER baked into the samples. People are doing it every day.

Think about it some more. What is the difference between bouncing down the output from EWHO versus playing it from the instrument? 

Answer = None.


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## MarcusMaximus (May 3, 2019)

Interesting discussion there guys though I don 't agree that labornvain's point is merely academic. However I'm not sure that I'd make an issue of it either in terms of avoiding mixing with audio tracks.

Anyway.. 

So I've created a new track with the ostinato figure written fresh into it and I'm getting the same anomaly. I've started a new Server project with just the one instance with Play on it hosting the one oboe legato patch. Same problem. Changed the audio output to built-in rather than my interface. Same problem. Setting multi-threading to Playback Tracks makes no difference. 

Yes Dewdman I'll send you the simple project if you wouldn't mind trying to replicate the issue I'm having, or seeing what you can find. Bear in mind this is a 'vanilla' project, i.e. it is not based on a template or anything else so there shouldn't be anything going on in the background to complicate matters. On the VEPro side I have an instance of Play with the OB Leg Slur VS Full NI patch loaded. Try the playback with the midi track selected and then with the audio track selected and see if there's any difference. I'd be very interested to hear what you find.

Thanks for taking the time to do this. Appreciated.


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## Dewdman42 (May 3, 2019)

definitely PM, will check it out


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## MarcusMaximus (May 3, 2019)

I can't figure out how to send it. There is an option to upload a file but it won't let me select a Logic project, only an audio file. Do you know how to do this?


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## Dewdman42 (May 3, 2019)

zip the file first. Logic projects are technically folders.


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## MarcusMaximus (May 3, 2019)

Yup, just tried to zip it but it won't do that either. Give me a minute..


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## Dewdman42 (May 3, 2019)

also if you can send an audio of what its SUPPOSED to sound like..if you are able to even create that... I will take a look either way


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## MarcusMaximus (May 3, 2019)

The audio that sounds as it’s supposed to is the first example I posted earlier, if you can hear it. I’ll try and make it downloadable so that you can raise the level.


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## MarcusMaximus (May 4, 2019)

I wonder if anyone else who runs Logic and VEPro over a slave system and has EW Hollywood Orchestra, or even just the woodwinds, would be willing to have a listen to this test project and let me know what you hear. Dewdman42 doesn't seem to be hearing the issue I'm talking about so I'd love to get another opinion or two. If so, please follow the guidelines at the end of the last paragraph of post #48 above, it's quite straight-forward and will only take a couple of minutes. The sort of difference I'm hearing is exemplified in the two audio files in post #39, although there are some CC's affecting those which have been erased from the test example to keep things as simple as possible. Many thanks in advance.


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## Dewdman42 (May 4, 2019)

Dewdman42 couldn't hear your audio files before, its not that I couldn't hear what you are talking about. The files were inaudible for me. I have not had a chance yet to look at your updated sound files. But I will today...


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## Dewdman42 (May 4, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> If that works for you then keep doing it!


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## MarcusMaximus (May 4, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> Dewdman42 couldn't hear your audio files before, its not that I couldn't hear what you are talking about. The files were inaudible for me. I have not had a chance yet to look at your updated sound files. But I will today...



Well I didn’t mean anything by that, I was just saying that you weren’t hearing the issue, one way or another. Whether that’s the audio files or the midi playback is not really important. I’m simply asking that someone else take a look as well, no negative intended to you. I do appreciate you taking a look at this at all.


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## Dewdman42 (May 4, 2019)

Alright, sorry for the delay. The updated soundcloud files are much easier to hear now. I imported them both into LPX and I can hear that the timing is off between the two versions.

But just looking at the bounced AIF's you provided, presuming they were done sample accurately with the same start times in each AIF, The one produced while your audio track was selected is delayed by 14,615 samples compared to the first one. So first off without looking any deeper yet...is that because you bounced them that way into the AIF or is one bounce procedure introducing latency that the other is not?

That being said I time-aligned their start times and I can also hear subtle differences and observe the differences visually in the bounced wave forms, though its difficult to hear a consistent pattern, but clearly they are different.






So the timing difference is one thing..not sure if that was your doing or something about the bounce being different when one track is selected vs the other. But the fact that the wave forms are different AT ALL other then that is a concern! 

The question is why.

Honestly I'm having a hard time hearing a specific midi-performance-related pattern difference that i can identify and try to figure out, but they are different for sure.

At this point I am pointing the finger at LPX as to why its happening, only because I know LPX does weird things when you have track headers selected. 

By the way, how did you bounce the midi track while the audio tack was selected? Were you doing offline bounce or real time recording through a bus or something of that nature?

Unfortunately I am in the middle of installing a bunch of large VSL libraries and my elicensor won't let me start up VEP until that's all done, and possibly I have to reboot. So I will try to replicate your procedure after that. But anyway, what was the procedure you used to produce these two bounces?


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## Dewdman42 (May 4, 2019)

another test for you to try, what happens if you put PLAY directly in LPX and do the same two bounce operations? (eliminate VEP for this test)


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## MarcusMaximus (May 4, 2019)

Ok thank you. The start times and some of the visual differences are probably moot because I simply edited both files separately to delete the silent parts at the start and also to raise the levels. So they are not consistent with each other in those respects.

At this point the issue is not so much the variation between the midi and the audio files as the fact that the playback sounds different, meaning the timing is out and certain notes are not ‘triggering’ properly, when a different track is selected vs. the midi track that is playing. I hope that’s clear. Those recordings do still represent the differences I am hearing though so some of what we can see in the waveforms probably reflects that.

It seems that the ‘weird things Logic does when a track header is selected’ might be a factor here. I’d be interested in hearing more about that..

I did them using a real-time recording through a bus but the result is the same if I bounce the project in real-time with that track soloed. Again, now I do seem to be getting an accurate recording of the midi track, it’s more the midi track plays back differently depending on what is selected, whether I record it’s output or not. Again once again, I do hope I’m explaining the issue clearly enough here!


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## MarcusMaximus (May 4, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> another test for you to try, what happens if you put PLAY directly in LPX and do the same two bounce operations? (eliminate VEP for this test)



Yes, I thought of that yesterday but haven’t done it yet because it means moving files and licenses etc. around but I should definitely try it. It’ll be tomorrow though because it’s late at night again here!


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## Dewdman42 (May 4, 2019)

MarcusMaximus said:


> Ok thank you. The start times and some of the visual differences are probably moot because I simply edited both files separately to delete the silent parts at the start and also to raise the levels. So they are not consistent with each other in those respects.


roger that. that eliminates that particular concern.



> it’s more the midi track plays back differently depending on what is selected, whether I record it’s output or not. Again once again, I do hope I’m explaining the issue clearly enough here!



Alright that eliminates the subject of "bouncing" from the equation.

Its more that when you play it back with the midi track selected, it sounds as you expect it to sound and if you play with some other track selected it does not sound right. 

Do I have that right?

A test with PLAY directly in Logic would help to determine if VEP can be eliminated from the problem solving or not.

Anyway, Just checking but you have low latency mode off or on?


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## MarcusMaximus (May 4, 2019)

Yes you do have that right. Exactly.

I agree that the non-VEPro test is a must at this point. Tomorrow. I will also check the latency mode setting then but I’m pretty sure it’s off. Will report back my findings. Thanks again.


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## Dewdman42 (May 5, 2019)

Last night I did a test both with PLAY in VEP and PLAY in LPX. I am not getting any problem either way, they are all rendering exactly the same audio file. I used real time bouncing through a bus, like you said you did. I can't hear any differences. I'm on PLAY6, I don't know if that matters.

I'm trying to think about why selecting the midi track or selecting the audio track you're recording to would cause different results. The currently selected track is always in LIVE mode... so there could be something related to that, but I didn't get different results like you did...so I'm not sure what to think at this point..


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## MarcusMaximus (May 5, 2019)

Just done some more testing myself. No, I don't have low latency mode turned on. Makes no difference if I do.

I'm also getting exactly the same results with Play directly in Logic as I do with it in VEPro on the slave. So that seems to rule VEPro out of the equation. What's very interesting is that I still have a copy of Logic 9 installed so I tried this out there and guess what, it plays the track back perfectly and exactly the same whether I have the midi track that's playing or another track selected! So the problem seems to be exclusive to Logic Pro X and it seems not to occur on your system. Did you try simply playing it back, not bouncing or rendering in any way, with both the midi track and a different track selected? Any difference like that? Again, this only happens with a legato patch, all others play back identically independent of track selection.

I'll look into the live mode thing some more but I'd be interested in what you meant earlier about LPX doing weird things when a track header is selected because that is definitely what seems to be happening on my system.

Just to say that all of this is without using my audio interface, just the built-in output.


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## MarcusMaximus (May 5, 2019)

Here are the two short playback files with Play directly in Logic, the first with the midi track selected and the second with the audio track selected. You do hear the difference right? It's not just my imagination playing tricks on me is it?!


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## Dewdman42 (May 5, 2019)

You’re in logic 10.4.4?


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## Dewdman42 (May 5, 2019)

Weird is a strong term I guess. Logic changes the way cores are utilized in live mode. In live mode input to the selected channel is usually passed through to the instrument channel. So when you have midi track selected then anything you might play on your keyboard or leaks in via IAC would also effect the midi playback. When you have audio track selected then if you have an audio source selected from somewhere that could leak in.

That’s all I can think of at the moment but if you google logicpro live mode you can probably find a lot said about it


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## Dewdman42 (May 5, 2019)

There is the midi Demix feature also which might effect things in some way


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## MarcusMaximus (May 5, 2019)

Yes, I have 10.4.4 running under Sierra. There must be something going on with the interaction between whatever demands a legato patch places on playback and how LPX processes the signal differently depending on track selection, live mode etc. Thanks for your explanation and I'll certainly look into live mode and the Demix feature and do some more research to try and understand whatever is happening. I suppose I could just make sure to select all the midi tracks I am trying to render but I can imagine this might cause some problems so a fix would be preferable.

I do appreciate all your help with this. I have posted a couple of enquiries over on Soundsonline and Logic Pro Help because this involves the interaction between Play and Logic specifically so someone might have some insight in one of those camps!


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## Dewdman42 (May 5, 2019)

Or try creating a dummy external midi track with nothing on it and select that during bounce.


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## Dewdman42 (May 5, 2019)

I haven't spent any time with my PLAY libraries yet, I got it on sale but have been entirely consumed by VSL libraries I bought since then. So i'm not sure what PLAY does with legato patches. I thought that was just a matter of overlapping them. Since it seems to be working fine for me (knock on wood) there must be something in Logic doing it, but not sure what right now...since you have sent me your project with its project settings, we should be looking at the same thing, I can't think of anything else right now. When you did the real time bounce, i persume you created a bus and then used that bus as the input for the audio track. Make sure nothing else is sending output to that bus when you do it.


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## MarcusMaximus (May 5, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> Or try creating a dummy external midi track with nothing on it and select that during bounce.



Just tried that quickly with playback only. Same problem. Also set inputs and outputs to none on the audio track when that is selected. Ditto.

Yes I did the original bounce the way you describe. The most recent files though were done just bouncing the project as normal. The resulting audio files are what I've uploaded. No difference whatever way I render or even not rendering, just playing back.


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## Dewdman42 (May 5, 2019)

PLAY6 is free now, you can always try upgrading.


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## MarcusMaximus (May 5, 2019)

Yep, already did that!


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## MarcusMaximus (May 5, 2019)

Hey Dewdman42 I think I've just found a solution! Trawling through old threads on various forums after searching with some different phrasings, I came across someone with a similar issue using an EW piano. He sorted it out by setting the Process Buffer Range to medium. Mine was set to large. Changing it to medium made everything play back smoothly no matter which track is selected. When I checked Logic 9, it was at medium. Setting it to large made the problem occur there.

So it was quite simple after all! Much relieved but of course I still have to verify that all works properly in my main project.

Hope someone else finds this helpful if ever they experience something similar.


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## Dewdman42 (May 5, 2019)

Intersting. Though I have mine set to large and it seemed ok? I know for me I need it set on large because when I pipe 100 tracks through a single VEP instance, the midi will start dropping notes unless process buffer is set to large...so that is dissapointing to hear.. This seems like a bug that should be filed with Apple..but I'm not sure exactly what to tell them. Saying it "doesn't sound right" will probably not get a response.


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## MarcusMaximus (May 5, 2019)

Yeah that was me you replied to over on the Logic forum!

Strange that with it set to large you still didn't get what I'll now call the sync problem. I wonder why?

A little worrying here too because the reason I had mine set to large in the first place was similar to yours. I'll have to see how it performs once I throw the whole project at it! Hope I don't get my hopes dashed..


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## Dewdman42 (May 5, 2019)

I suppose it could be a PLAY bug too.


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## MarcusMaximus (May 5, 2019)

Yes indeed. I'll report it to them as well as to Apple.


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