# Broadway Big Band Kontakt 4 Crossgrade!!!!!



## Pedro Camacho (Jan 14, 2010)

It is not a dream, it is real.

Yuval and sonivox listened to us and made BBB for K4!

http://www.sonivoxmi.com/ProductDetail.asp?Item=CDBigBand (http://www.sonivoxmi.com/ProductDetail. ... =CDBigBand)


New Features In Kontakt Edition

* All-in-one Kontakt 4 powered interface. No longer need to use multiple applications and virtual midi cabling. Just load the instrument and play.

* True 64bit engine. Now you can utilize more RAM. Load as many instruments you want (as long as your hardware supports it...)

* Supports: Stand-alone, VST®, Audio Units™, RTAS® (Pro Tools® 7 or higher) ASIO™, Core Audio™, DirectSound®, WASAPI™

* Ultimate control over alternate cycles by creating and recalling snap-shots through the new interface.

* Dump & reload articulations of instruments right from the player's interface, to optimize memory usage.

* Improved mod-wheel crescendo/ diminuendo (sounds and performs better)

* Added an active articulation to the main tenor and alto saxophones.

* Revamped audio and programing, including many minor bug fixes and improved tuning.

* Each instrument has its own Key-switch monitor, allowing multiple instruments to be viewed simultaneously.

* The new key switch monitor interface enables selecting articulations visually on-screen with a click of a button. (it is still also possible to access all articulations through your main midi keyboard with out the need for any specialized controllers and without touching the mouse)

* A new strumming engine for the banjo and ukulele makes it easy to strum on your keyboard

* Color coded keyboard view to present playable range and the various types of virtual key switches available for each instrument.


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## Elfen (Jan 14, 2010)

At last, that's great news. And great new features. Now I need a new credit line and 2 tera of HD.


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## Stevie (Jan 14, 2010)

Just amazing.


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## EthanStoller (Jan 14, 2010)

Whoah, the title of this thread took my breath away. I've been struggling mightily with BBB for years. To be honest, I don't feel great about giving them 300 more of my dollars, but if the instrument can finally live up to its potential, I suppose it's worth it.


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## Justus (Jan 14, 2010)

And there are new demos also.


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## Stevie (Jan 14, 2010)

Woah, 300 is a bit steep.


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## Pedro Camacho (Jan 14, 2010)

Stevie @ Fri Jan 15 said:


> Woah, 300 is a bit steep.



it is quite too much indeed, but to be honest, I just want BBB to work on K4...


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## Stevie (Jan 14, 2010)

Yeah, I can imagine. I wouldn't be amused either.
I mean it was their (wrong) decision to move to Halion Player and now the customers have to pay for their mistake, heh.


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## Pedro Camacho (Jan 15, 2010)

Ok I must be fair, I will probably pay it.

Changing that to Kontakt must have been a HUUUGEE work.


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## Nick Harvey (Jan 15, 2010)

Ah, finally!

My day is now made.


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## IvanP (Jan 15, 2010)

Still 2500 $ ??

Come on....!!


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## musicpete (Jan 15, 2010)

How about a new concept: They give YOU (the customers) the equivalent of money that you lost by troubleshooting the barely working Steinbug software. 

Now THAT would be novel!


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## Hans Scheffler (Jan 15, 2010)

The crossgrade price is a total joke.
After all they put their customers thru trying to get the crappy Halionversion to work they dare to charge for finally fixing their intial mistake.
Major thumbs down from me!
:|


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## chimuelo (Jan 15, 2010)

I can only imagine the developer is not jacking up the price.
Most developers would rather see thier instruments actually sell and reach a few more folks.
That current choice has me rather twisted too. I was told for the longest time there was going to be a better Halion version. But then again Stienberg is not the old Steinberg we once knew.
There's just too many other ways to combine developers in Kontakt for less than half the price of this.
That's sad too because those Saxes are still top shelf IMHO.
Those and CHeins stuff are the ticket for big band and r&b/Pop/Funk.
Those who employ me wouldn't hear the 1800 dollar differnce anyways.... :mrgreen:


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## Frederick Russ (Jan 15, 2010)

Wow really? How very cool! Finally.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 15, 2010)

Great library. Too expensive. Can't afford it. Very happy with CHH2 thus far. Working on 3.

These guys could take a lesson from Gary Garritan, I swear. Take the price town by half and sell 4 times as many units...hmmm...let me do the math...actually,....take it down by two thirds and everyone who ever has to write for Brooadway, big band, cabaret, dinner theater,small horn ensemble, straight ahead jazz etc etc etc would HAVE to own it, so, take the price down two thirds and sell 10 times the iunits...hmmm...doing the math.....plus the upgrades and improvements in the product path at $100-$200 a shot...hmm....


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## Pochflyboy (Jan 15, 2010)

WOW... thats all I can say. Glad they finally did it. $300 though? I guess it is BBB we are talking about but dang!


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## Martin Hines (Jan 15, 2010)

I wonder if Sonivox had a hand in pricing.

I just can't understand why Sonivox STILL wants $2995 for the Kontakt version of Complete Symphonic Collection. Crazy!!!

These companies should look hard at the EastWest pricing model. Price high initially then continue to discount at 1 year, 1.5 year points, and RAKE IN THE MONEY from increased sales volumes. EastWest has made millions from EWQLSO.

If BBB Kontakt 4 sold for $800 with a $100 crossgrade for existing customers, they would most likely DOUBLE the profits they will make with their existing pricing.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 15, 2010)

Martin Hines @ Fri Jan 15 said:


> I wonder if Sonivox had a hand in pricing.
> 
> I just can't understand why Sonivox STILL wants $2995 for the Kontakt version of Complete Symphonic Collection. Crazy!!!
> 
> ...



As I stated earlier, I think double at the minimum. 

What's hard to figure is, if they actually realize this- is it some sort of elitist model they have in mind? Like 'the sampled horns that MOST cannot afford- own BBB and be special!' :?


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## Pedro Camacho (Jan 16, 2010)

I just bought the crossgrade. It is not cheap, but I won't regret it at all.

Regarding Complete Symphonic Collection, it is expensive, I bought it too and never had a single regret.

The library is probably one of the best ever libraries I ever bought. Just unmatchable.


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## otr5 (Jan 16, 2010)

> I just bought the crossgrade. It is not cheap, but I won't regret it at all.


Hi
how did you bought it , and when will it be available?

Cheers


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## Pedro Camacho (Jan 16, 2010)

http://www.sonivoxmi.com/ProductDetail.asp?Item=CDBigBand&mnu=LayVirtualInstruments (http://www.sonivoxmi.com/ProductDetail. ... nstruments)

click add to cart and there is an option for 299 USD.


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## midphase (Jan 16, 2010)

I have to agree with the above comments regarding the general Sonivox pricing. We live in a different economy than we did even 5 years ago (when VSL could command high prices and DVZ didn't seem that outrageous). With some incredibly high quality libraries coming in within the $1000 range (not to mention the extremely aggressive pricing that East West has for some of their slightly older products), it's really hard to figure out what Sonivox's retail strategy is. Perhaps it's very successful for them and they're laughing all the way to the bank, in that case I'm happy for them.

Also, the fairness in pricing and crossgrade seems very relative to one's particular finances and need for a particular library. For someone like myself, it's much more convenient and economically feasible to hire real players when I need that type of sound (which is not very often), but for someone who specializes in the big band brass sound and jazz, BBB is probably well worth every penny and more!


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## Niah (Jan 16, 2010)

Sonivox's way of making business is really strange imo.

Fable sounds created BBB and I remember that many moons ago when they announced the product they projected a price of 1000 dollars.
Then when it was picked up by sonivox for distribution was released with the price of 2500 dollars.
Their symphonic collection which is great still costs the same 3000 dollars and the same goes for their strings package which was released circa 2002 still costs 1000 bucks.

Now this 300 crossgrade feels like a slap in the face for existingò.   ¿cë.   ¿cì.   ¿cí.   ¿cî.   ¿cï.   ¿cð.   ¿cñ.   ¿cò.   ¿có.   ¿cô.   ¿cõ.   ¿cö.


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## chimuelo (Jan 16, 2010)

Sonivox is a good company though.
It's basically the old Sonic Implants folks and other entities.
I think it's good marketing strategy though.
When someone asks for 60 bucks for a bag of weed I never get excited, but when someone says they need 200 I tend to think that there's those purple hairs and skunk odor and after some negotiations agree on 150 bucks.
They end up getting the sale and probably a decent profit still.
So negotiate and tell them you want the NAMM discount and I think you can get a weeks pay knocked off.


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## Ed (Jan 16, 2010)

midphase @ Sat Jan 16 said:


> Amazing though that Heart of AFrica and Hans Zimmer Guitars are still priced exactly as they were the day they first came out (if memory serves me correctly).



Its like they have just forgotten about those libraries.


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## otr5 (Jan 16, 2010)

> http://www.sonivoxmi.com/ProductDetail.asp?Item=CDBigBand&mnu=LayVirtualInstrume nts
> 
> click add to cart and there is an option for 299 USD.



Thank's
nothing compares to the sound quality this lib produce.
maybe now it will be more intuitive.
but unfortunately it will sure be crack now :(


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## otr5 (Jan 16, 2010)

> http://www.sonivoxmi.com/ProductDetail.asp?Item=CDBigBand&mnu=LayVirtualInstrume nts
> 
> click add to cart and there is an option for 299 USD.



Thank's
nothing compares to the sound quality this lib produce.
maybe now it will be more intuitive.
but unfortunately it will sure be crack now :(


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## windshore (Jan 16, 2010)

2500 buys you a lot of CHH ... and a bunch of live players as well. 

You guys must be making some decent money just doing BB production huh?


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## Pzy-Clone (Jan 16, 2010)

chimuelo @ Sat Jan 16 said:


> Sonivox is a good company though.
> It's basically the old Sonic Implants folks and other entities.
> I think it's good marketing strategy though.
> When someone asks for 60 bucks for a bag of weed I never get excited, but when someone says they need 200 I tend to think that there's those purple hairs and skunk odor and after some negotiations agree on 150 bucks.
> ...



uhm...,what?
Young man, you shouldnt do dope, it makes you space out with long synth solos and plot out conspiracy theories about the goverment.

btw, why is it that BBB is so good, that people pay 2500 for it?
Just curios, never heard it or tried it...must be pretty great sounding..?


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## chimuelo (Jan 16, 2010)

Yeah Pzy it's Coke and Speed that causes those... 8) 
I was being facetious to exaggerate a marketing point.
Hell I'm so straight these days I have to lay down just to take a crap.....

BBB was way ahead of the game until CHHorns came out. BBB was a great big surpise a few years back, but even now the Sax sections are the best sampled saxes I have heard and I am always on the look out for those, as the saxes I use still make me cringe but thankfully are buried amongst some great Bones and trump sections, and of course the Screaming Trump over the top makes all mentioned samples even more realistic.


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## Ben H (Jan 17, 2010)

EDIT


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## Pzy-Clone (Jan 17, 2010)

chimuelo @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> Yeah Pzy it's Coke and Speed that causes those... 8)
> I was being facetious to exaggerate a marketing point.
> Hell I'm so straight these days I have to lay down just to take a crap.....
> 
> BBB was way ahead of the game until CHHorns came out. BBB was a great big surpise a few years back, but even now the Sax sections are the best sampled saxes I have heard and I am always on the look out for those, as the saxes I use still make me cringe but thankfully are buried amongst some great Bones and trump sections, and of course the Screaming Trump over the top makes all mentioned samples even more realistic.



Well, i dunno...i heard demos offocurse, but BBB seems to be very well thought of...but i never really saw any arguement or reason stated for this, so i was just wondering what it is that set(s) it apart to such a costly extent.
Not that i need that sound often, or at all really...its just compelling in the sense that it seems to be so respected here.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 17, 2010)

I guess it's like anything, isn't it? If you're earning good dough, then why not buy what is perceived to be the best. I really don't know enough about BBB to know if it IS the best, mind - the pricing is so high it's not even worth looking. But I do know that as much as like Chris Hein, and REALLY value vol 2 in my collection, it's still a helluva long way from real big band brass. You get more bang for your buck in orchestral than Big Band, I think.


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## Stevie (Jan 17, 2010)

To be honest, the BBB demos never amazed me.


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## germancomponist (Jan 17, 2010)

Stevie @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> To be honest, the BBB demos never amazed me.



Oopsssss, I thought I was allone with my mind about the demos.... . o-[][]-o


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## Stevie (Jan 17, 2010)

o-[][]-o o=<


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## Stevie (Jan 17, 2010)

+1 Martin


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## Ben H (Jan 17, 2010)

EDIT


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## EthanStoller (Jan 18, 2010)

There's a http://www.fablesounds.com/forum/index.php?topic=467.0 (juicy thread) brewing over at the once-defunct Fable Sounds forum about the crossgrade, in case anyone's missed it.


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## Stevie (Jan 18, 2010)

Woah, right on!


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## chimuelo (Jan 18, 2010)

Yepp nice thread.
Also once you reach the end in the upper right corner hit and check out the porns links and pictures of Ho's getting nailed.........
That kind of shows you this guy not only abandonned his project but his website.......... >8o 
Most of the pics are gross......I dunno maybe they were sctually posts, but I would rather see some fine trim instead of dogmeat.
It makes the place look really disgusting.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 18, 2010)

Martin Hines @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> Sonivox and Fable Sounds need to hire an economist for a few days to help them understand how much higher profits they would earn if they discounted their products that have been on the market for a while.



That is so true. After buying their strings library I had the hand at the trigger more than once for the brass and the winds. But every time I thought the price was a bit ridiculous given the age of the library. Now it is over time, there have been newer and more convenient libraries (for me) been showing up, so they missed the chance to get my money.


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## Ed (Jan 18, 2010)

chimuelo @ Mon Jan 18 said:


> Yepp nice thread.
> Also once you reach the end in the upper right corner hit and check out the porns links and pictures of Ho's getting nailed..........



eh?


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## chimuelo (Jan 18, 2010)

http://www.fablesounds.com/forum/index.php?topic=449.0

He must like the free flicks, they are all over this forum.
Scabby looking babes though. I like my women like my coffee..............hot and black.............Ankyu.
The bigger and fatter the better. You know the kind from the front pages of the National Enquirer that weigh 800 lbs. and can't get out of bed..........Perfect, they can't chase you around and are real thankful for the sex.........Ankyu....


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## Revson (Jan 18, 2010)

chimuelo @ Tue Jan 19 said:


> http://www.fablesounds.com/forum/index.php?topic=449.0
> 
> He must like the free flicks, they are all over this forum.
> Scabby looking babes though. I like my women like my coffee..............hot and black.............Ankyu.
> The bigger and fatter the better. You know the kind from the fromt pages of the National Enquirer that weigh 800 lbs. and get out of bed..........Perfect, they can't chase you around and are real thankful for the sex.........Ankyu....


Friend, you are a piece o' work :lol: Know that you are appreciated. Frederick oughta be paying you.


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## chimuelo (Jan 18, 2010)

I can't help myself. These places just get too serious for me sometimes and I feel the need to get creative....afterall, I am sure most of us can improvise..
And the Yuval guy needs a break. They're busting his balls over there and here.
Serious caclking Hens.......


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## shakuman (Jan 19, 2010)

IMHO BBB is the best library I ever heard amazing trumpet and lovely romantic clarnet I respect the other libraries which I own and love but in fact BBB some thing different...I hope Sonivox will look after the crossgrade price especially for the people who bought the product on 18th of november 2009 in normal price such me! :( 

All the best.

Shakuman.


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## Revson (Jan 19, 2010)

shakuman @ Tue Jan 19 said:


> IMHO BBB is the best library I ever heard amazing trumpet and lovely romantic clarnet I respect the other libraries which I own and love but in fact BBB some thing different...I hope Sonivox will look after the crossgrade price especially for the people who bought the product on 18th of november 2009 in normal price such me! :(
> 
> All the best.
> 
> Shakuman.


No mention of microtuning...you feeling OK?


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## shakuman (Jan 19, 2010)

Revson @ Tue Jan 19 said:


> shakuman @ Tue Jan 19 said:
> 
> 
> > IMHO BBB is the best library I ever heard amazing trumpet and lovely romantic clarnet I respect the other libraries which I own and love but in fact BBB some thing different...I hope Sonivox will look after the crossgrade price especially for the people who bought the product on 18th of november 2009 in normal price such me! :(
> ...



looooool o=< I forgot about this! but with kontakt4 of course I will be ok o-[][]-o 

Shakuman.


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## midphase (Jan 19, 2010)

"And the Yuval guy needs a break. They're busting his balls over there and here. "

Yuval is a cool guy, very smart and with the right ideas on how to do samples. I think such a strong response is largely motivated by the fact that people do like his library, but everything is relative.

Maybe he should consider offering a LITE version for $500 with your basic brass articulations...it would probably pull in more business and more money than the full version.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 19, 2010)

Actually Project Sam is another company who keep their prices high(ish) and never seem to have sales, so together with Spectrasonics, Sonivox are not alone, are they?

Spectrasonics, on the other hand, are pretty generous with upgrades, and actually PS did give us Symphobia 1.1. I guess that's another model - keep the prices the same, but keep adding value.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 19, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Tue Jan 19 said:


> Actually Project Sam is another company who keep their prices high(ish) and never seem to have sales, so together with Spectrasonics, Sonivox are not alone, are they?
> 
> Spectrasonics, on the other hand, are pretty generous with upgrades, and actually PS did give us Symphobia 1.1. I guess that's another model - keep the prices the same, but keep adding value.



Spectrasonics upgrade policy is so ridiculously fair, it's almost unfair to the developer.


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## Martin Hines (Jan 19, 2010)

Ben H @ Mon Jan 18 said:


> Well that is true. But perhaps the biggest cost after R&D is support. So, do you choose to sell fewer units with a higher price and have less customers to support? Or do you to choose to move more units at a lower price with a much larger customer base and support costs?
> 
> It's a tricky balance!


Not really. Companies can always add more support people if sales warrant it. Also, most MI software companies don't provide much support anyway. Sonivox certainly does not spend much money on support.



Ben H @ Mon Jan 18 said:


> I don't think that this the reason why. I think there's more to it than that. I think that they have tried to establish themselves as a "boutique sample developer" in order to keep people's perceptions of the product, and ultimately their prices high.
> 
> The same could probably be said for Porche or Ferarri, that if they cost less then more people would buy.


There is a HUGE difference between software and hardware. The cost to produce ONE additional Porshe or Ferrari is astronomical compared to the cost to produce one additional set of DVDs and packaging. 

A vendor can set any price they want, and setting a price high and never changing it does keep an illusion of quality and exclusivity. However, look at the East West pricing model. I would assert that East West products have a higher reputation than Sonivox products, and a major reason for that is East West's pricing model. The price is high when the product comes out (e.g. Hollywood Strings), the price is lowered after a year or two, and this generates significant additonal profits and generates brand awareness.



Ben H @ Mon Jan 18 said:


> Well that is arguable. None of us really know how well this strategy is working for them. However, if it wasn't working then they would have changed their business model accordingly.


I don't believe it is "arguable" at all. The question isn't whether a product is profitable, but rather HOW profitable. I would be highly surprised if Sonivox currently sells more than 10 units of SISC a month, and this figure could easily double if they cut their price in half.



Ben H @ Mon Jan 18 said:


> However, if it wasn't working then they would have changed their business model accordingly.


Sonivox has changed their business model, but not in a good way for people who like quality libraries. Sonivox hasn't updated SISC in years, and hasn't produced any new substantial quality library in years. They have shifted to producing lower cost titles, many of which are simply rebundling of their existing library catalog.

If I were going to bet on who is more profitable due to their library sales, EastWest vs. Sonivox, I would go with EastWest in a heartbeat.

Sonivox may be happy with their current pricing model simply because they have made money. However it is some times difficult for companies to try something different.

Here is a test for Sonivox. Given the Sonivox Complete Symphonic Collection has been out for years now, sales are most likely at a known state (e.g. x of of units per month or a declining rate). Drop the price from $3,000 to $1,000 and see what happens to profitability of the title.


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## Hans Scheffler (Jan 19, 2010)

The fableguys seem to be totally out of touch with reality.


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## Ed (Jan 19, 2010)

Hans Scheffler @ Tue Jan 19 said:


> The fableguys seem to be totally out of touch with reality.



Shame really since they have probably made some of the best samples in a long long time.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jan 19, 2010)

Re-listening to the demos of BBB. They are pretty good, maybe even 2500 good. There are only a few cases where I'd be forced to hide some elements.

However, Sample-modeling does it better I think. It's just they don't have a full section just yet.


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## Mike Connelly (Jan 19, 2010)

Martin Hines @ Sun Jan 17 said:


> I assume the only reason companies have a "set it once and never change it" price is to try to make sure existing customers don't get upset. However, as EastWest has shown, existing customers can easily adapt to a new model of "pay more when product is new, pay less and less as time goes on". Really, are customers who purchased EWQLSO back in 2002 (?) upset people can buy it for a significantly lower price now in 2010?



But look at the flip side - once people have seen that EW originally had Platinum for $5k or whatever and it eventually dropped all the way down to around a fifth of that, I have seen many people say why buy HS now since it's going to be way cheaper if you wait a while?

And yes, there have been a lot of people over the years upset with EW because they bought a library and then there was a big price drop. It doesn't help when they advertise with claims that it's the last chance for that price for x amount of time or whatever.


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## Ed (Jan 19, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Tue Jan 19 said:


> However, Sample-modeling does it better I think. It's just they don't have a full section just yet.



Maybe, but you'd have to compare ease of use as well. Also, you aren't comparing products you're comparing techniques. In comparing techniques BBB gives you better acoustics and mixing options than Sample Modelling it seems. The question is is the trade off worth it? But only after Sample Modelling provides enough instruments to ask it.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 19, 2010)

> The key with software pricing is the fact that after initially recovering R&D costs, the incremental cost of producing new units is practically nothing.



No comment on the pricing, but I will say that the incremental cost is higher than you might think. Just the Kontakt Player license is a serious expense - and from what I understand, one that must be paid up front - to say nothing of packaging, manufacturing, distribution, support, and all the normal overhead involved with keeping the doors open.

Plus they did a lot of work on the library since the initial version, and that costs a lot in man hours.

Again, I'm not commenting on the the upgrade price, just on the expenses.


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## Revson (Jan 19, 2010)

Grind-every-last-cent promotional marketing versus "price it and put it on the shelf" - might reflect personality and lifestyle choice as much as anything?

eastwest_lounge






..."dedicated to all 'wild women' traveling in the ancient underground forest of their lives."


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## Martin Hines (Jan 20, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Wed Jan 20 said:


> But look at the flip side - once people have seen that EW originally had Platinum for $5k or whatever and it eventually dropped all the way down to around a fifth of that, I have seen many people say why buy HS now since it's going to be way cheaper if you wait a while?


There is a risk, but I think it is small, especially given East West has held firm to their "no discounting for at least one year on new titles" rule. 

To me, East West's pricing (and pro/lite version strategy) just allows them to take advantage of more of the buyer demand curve. 



Mike Connelly @ Wed Jan 20 said:


> And yes, there have been a lot of people over the years upset with EW because they bought a library and then there was a big price drop.


I am sure there are some upset with East West, but I suspect most of it was before people became comfortable with the pricing model. I was around when the first East West Group Buy happened at the Northern Sounds forum, and frankly I think the success took East West by surprise -- they ran out of stock because they didn't think they would sell so many copies.



Mike Connelly @ Wed Jan 20 said:


> It doesn't help when they advertise with claims that it's the last chance for that price for x amount of time or whatever.


I think East West has been smarter about this in the recent future, concentrating on promotion end dates rather than claimining they will never have another promotion.


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## Martin Hines (Jan 20, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jan 20 said:


> No comment on the pricing, but I will say that the incremental cost is higher than you might think. Just the Kontakt Player license is a serious expense - and from what I understand, one that must be paid up front - to say nothing of packaging, manufacturing, distribution, support, and all the normal overhead involved with keeping the doors open.


There are operating expenses that must be covered, including player licensing fees, but for an expensive library costing anywhere from $500 - $3000 those costs ARE minimal in comparison.

The beauty of software (versus hardware) is that you have a lot of profit margin to play with on a per copy basis which allows you to better align yourself with the demand curve -- i.e. selling to a larger set of buyers over time versus fixed pricing.


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## germancomponist (Jan 20, 2010)

I have read the thread here and the other. 

I have not bought BBB. If I had, be sure that I would take the box under my arms and would bring it back to the sonivox team, to get my money back!

Then maybe I would buy the Kontakt lib..... .


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 20, 2010)

I was talking specifically about the cost to the developer of putting the upgrade on the market, Martin. My argument is only that the amount of profit in that $300 is a lot lower than one might think.


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## germancomponist (Jan 20, 2010)

I understand, Nick. 

But what is with all the buyers who never got this thing working right on its original Halion player?

Do you think it is fair to change the player and let them pay again?


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## Mike Connelly (Jan 20, 2010)

Martin Hines @ Wed Jan 20 said:


> There is a risk, but I think it is small, especially given East West has held firm to their "no discounting for at least one year on new titles" rule.



Maybe they have on that _specific_ claim in the past, but they have made similar statements and then not followed them. And even if it's a year, plenty of people are willing to wait a year knowing there will probably be a steep price drop after that.

And I'll bet things will be different than the sales/pricing curve for Platinum was. With that, when the price dropped, people thought it probably wouldn't get any cheaper, while this time around people know the longer they wait the better deal they will get.



> I am sure there are some upset with East West, but I suspect most of it was before people became comfortable with the pricing model.



That's true, people who have been around have learned their lesson, at this point it's mostly newbies to the company who don't know about how they do things and end up feeling burned.


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## Synesthesia (Jan 21, 2010)

For people (like me) who bought the original this is a no brainer.

Yes, it is quite expensive for a crossgrade. But I feel for whoever had to sit down and program from scratch all the tools again in Kontakt to make this lib work. Its not a simple task as we all know.

Then you have the player license costs for NI and the discs and so on.

I never really got on with the original software although Jay Asher kindly helped me to get it going, it was too temperamental and I found the whole thing a bit anti-speed.

However in Kontakt this becomes an infinitely more attractive proposition.

And I do buy the guys argument that at the time, only Halion had the technical prowess to accomplish the task.

However my only moan is that this should have been done a long time ago...!
:mrgreen: 

Paul


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 21, 2010)

> Do you think it is fair to change the player and let them pay again?



Yes, upgrades can't be free. The actual price is another question, however, and obviously I don't know how much they need to charge.


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## Martin Hines (Mar 2, 2010)

As long as Sonvox and Fable Sounds stick to their original $2500 pricetag for BBB, they probably HAVE to charge alot for the crossgrade.

If you assume the market for music software is relatively small compared to other software, I would imagine the market for $2,500 software to be tremendously smaller.

There is obviously a huge cost Fable Sounds has to recover just to break even with their migration to Kontakt 4. How are they going to recover that cost AND make additional money -- i.e. make the new version profitable?

For better or worse, if I were Fable Sounds and/or Sonivox, I would assume the majority of my potential customers already own the Halion version. Therefore, I have to charge a significant amount for a crossgrade, since I can't necessarily expect a boatload of new customers to cover my development costs for the Kontakt version.

Of course this upsets existing customers, but that is situation if you want to charge premium pricing for a product.

I imagine two pricing scenarios:
Existing scenario -- $299 for upgrade, $2,500 for new customers. Hopefully they will at least recover their Kontakt development expenses.

My scenario -- $99 for upgrade, $999 for new customers. I would predict larger profits (not just more revenue) since you would bring in so many more new customers.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 4, 2010)

Martin Hines @ Tue Mar 02 said:


> As long as Sonvox and Fable Sounds stick to their original $2500 pricetag for BBB, they probably HAVE to charge alot for the crossgrade.
> 
> If you assume the market for music software is relatively small compared to other software, I would imagine the market for $2,500 software to be tremendously smaller.
> 
> ...



+ about a 1000, which is how many times I've said something similar in a variety of forums. I know bunches of people who won't buy this product simply based on its over-the-top price, and heck- I don't even KNOW many people!
It's frustrating.I love the product, but their stubborn refusal to bring it to a reasonable price point makes customers such as myself equally stubborn.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 4, 2010)

AND though at risk of becoming a major fanboy here) they've opened the door for such excellent products as Chris Hein 2.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 5, 2010)

Folks, while I do not know the numbers behind the decisions, here is what i do know:

Al Joelsen is the marketing guy for Sonivox and he is very smart and not the type of guys who is looking to gouge his customers. And yuval Shrem, the devloper, does not live in a mansion and drive a fancy car. So I am sure there are valid reasons why the price structure is what it is.

The fact is, while I would love it if a Maserati cost what a Toyota Corolla does, it does not and I am guessing there are valid reasons that is so also.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 5, 2010)

Smart guys make mistakes too. I should know....I've made....ummmm.....errr....ahhh....

well, smart guys DO make mistakes. Trust me.


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## midphase (Mar 5, 2010)

Maseratis cost what they do because their market can bear it. 
(or not...this piece from the internets: "now in serious financial trouble and rumors arise as to the potential sale of Maserati to VW, and an uncertain future for Ferrari.")

Toyota on the other hand is a much much larger company with a huge customer base...who is in much better shape despite its recent troubles.


Also, the fact that Yuval doesn't drive a fancy car or live in Malibu might be a good indication that their marketing/pricing approach is not really working. 

Sonivox can do what they wish, I'm sure by now the are EXTREMELY well aware that most of us think that BBB is overpriced. If they do what they do is obviously because they can, and they want to...nothing wrong with that.

My hope is for CH or other horn sample libraries to get better and better at good price points so that ultimately BBB's price won't be much of an issue.


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## Martin Hines (Mar 6, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Fri Mar 05 said:


> Al Joelsen is the marketing guy for Sonivox and he is very smart and not the type of guys who is looking to gouge his customers. And yuval Shrem, the devloper, does not live in a mansion and drive a fancy car. So I am sure there are valid reasons why the price structure is what it is.


They have set the price structure based on a certain set of assumptions; however, those assumptions may be wrong.

Sonivox and Fable Sounds have decided to sell BBB at a premium price ($2500). They have most likely estimated the volume they expect to sell and have performed calculations that show they will generate a specific amount of profit if they sell their estimated amount.

However, especially given the EastWest pricing model, I would suggest that Sonivox/Fable Sounds could generate even more profit by cutting their price in half and selling a significantly larger number of copies.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 7, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sun Mar 07 said:


> Martin Hines @ Sat Mar 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Ashermusic @ Fri Mar 05 said:
> ...



Jay, I won't argue the point, because it's all purely speculative. You can't really say you KNOW his marketing plan is the most effective one, nor can I say categorically that it isn't. I hold to my theory. I'm sure you're right, that there are things we don't know, but I still suspect more product could have been sold cheaper, leading to complete market domination and happier returning customers for upgrades and crossgrades, et al.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 7, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Sun Mar 07 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sun Mar 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Martin Hines @ Sat Mar 06 said:
> ...



Understood. My point is that unless you have a marketing degree and/or experience and have the pertinent info that they have, your opinion is not founded on anything solid that makes it of value to anyone but yourself.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 7, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sun Mar 07 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun Mar 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Ashermusic @ Sun Mar 07 said:
> ...



Jeez, Jay. What a silly and confrontational thing to say. I'll leave it there.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 7, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Sun Mar 07 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sun Mar 07 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Sun Mar 07 said:
> ...



Confrontational, yes, silly no.

An opinion without requisite facts and training/experience to properly assess those facts is simply worth nothing to anyone but the holder of that opinion. I know this is against the prevailing ethos, but it is nonetheless true.

i will venture for instance opinions on composition, film scoring, Logic Pro, etc. because I have training and experience in those areas. While I may have an opinion on any given developer's pricing and marketing, I would never go on a forum and state it to others because I do not have training or experience in those areas and yet it could possibly cost that developer sales if someone else did not recognize my lack of qualification to make those assessments.

It is a matter of intellectual discipline, which once again, I know is not a popular concept these days.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 7, 2010)

I don't even think it's as much a matter of intellectual discipline or being a marketing expert as one of having information that only the people selling something have - and even they will never know how many more they would have sold at a different price! It's just too easy to sit here and tell developers how much they should charge, or in other threads how many more units they'd sell if they got rid of copy protection, or whatever the heck it is we think we know.

But the fact remains that we're all just a bunch of talkers looking in from the outside, no matter how much we think we know.

Now, of course I agree that $300 seems like a lot of money for an update, but I have to repeat that none of us knows how they came up with that figure. My armchair guess is that the amount of time it took to do has a lot to do with it, but that's not based on facts.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 7, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sun Mar 07 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun Mar 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Ashermusic @ Sun Mar 07 said:
> ...



You seem to be itching to get into a pissing match, which surprises me greatly. So be it.

Your argument is specious in the following context- this is a FORUM. Please look up the word 'forum' in your dictionary and get back to me. Additionally, explore the word 'politesse' and consider that in a frank exchange of views between well-meaning people, it's probably not necessary to suggest that they know nothing-when in fact, you have no idea what they know or don't. I believe that speaks to one of your earlier points. I find unnecessarily confrontational speech to be 'silly',- ymmv.

By the way, people discuss pricing issues here all the time, ALL the time. Suddenly, you've inserted yourself into this thread in a somewhat self righteous manner, regarding who may comment, and the credentials you deem necessary for them to be allowed to do so. This strikes me as rather odd. Is this some sort of fanboy 'I'm standing up for my friends here' thing?

Your serve.


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## Martin Hines (Mar 7, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sun Mar 07 said:


> Guys, you are making assumptions not based on solid info. Remember they have to pay Native Instruments a chunk and there may indeed be other facts that are involved that you are not privy to.
> 
> It is never wise to assume you know better about how to do something than people who do it for a living.



A few comments:
1) While I don't know their development costs, I do have enough economics training to talk about pricing decisions and the product cost/demand curve (I have an MBA in Finance & Marketing and I have worked in corporate software development for 15 years). 

Software is a strange entity in that the creation of additional units of the product costs very little compared to the development cost. This is vastly different than other non-software products that have a significant cost to produce additional units (e.g. cars or toasters). Software companies are therefore relatively free to adjust their pricing to gain market share (and get even more profits). Microsoft is a perfect example of this. Microsoft cut deals with computer manufacturers (and large corporations) to sell large numbers of their product because the extra volume of software media cost them very little to produce. Microsoft loses a court case and is required to pay damages; they pay in "equivalent value of MS software" because making more copies costs them practically nothing. This "low cost to create more units" is also why software companies have the ability to make huge profits quickly. 

As long as your selling price exceeds the marginal cost of those extra units (and that would include not only media creation but additional support costs), you are still making a profit. The beauty of software development is you have a lot more freedom in setting prices (and modifying them over time) than you would if you were selling something that had a relatively significant manufacturing cost. If you are a car manufacturer that "one additional car" has a real cost that must be recovered. Manufacture software and that "one additional set of DVDs" cost is much less (including licensing fees).

I am sure Sonivox and Fable Sounds honestly believe their pricing is set at a "sweet spot", but they could be wrong. 

2) East West "does it for a living" and their pricing model is different. I suspect the development cost for Hollywood Strings is significantly higher than Fable Sounds "port from Halion to Kontakt" cost. However, BBB is selling at $2,500 while Hollywood Strings is selling for $1,700, 30% lower than BBB. Also HS is a brand new product while BBB has been out for a few years now (in the old format).

Also, if history is any judge, HS will be available at an even lower price 1-2 years from now.

Historically, Sonivox has the pricing strategy of "price it once and keep it there forever", while East West has a "variable pricing over time" strategy. I could be wrong, but I would be willing to bet that EastWest has earned more profits than Sonivox[at least from sample library sales; Sonivox has a separate part of their company that is involved with music on cellphones and computer chips].

Just because Sonivox and Fable Sounds "sells software for a living" does not mean there is no possibility that they could make more money than they do with a different pricing policy.


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## Martin Hines (Mar 7, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Mar 08 said:


> and even they will never know how many more they would have sold at a different price!



This is EXACTLY why I assert they could be wrong. I don't necessarily need to know all of their exact costs to suggest they may be leaving money on the table.

If you remember back to the first EastWest Northern Sounds Group Buy, you should know that East West was completely floored by the success they had. East West, a company who had been successful and in business selling sample libraries for a number of years, did not understand how much impact a sizable discount could have on sales.

If I recall, the response was so big East West had to go back to their replication company and order another production run of EWQLSO.

If East West did not truly understand the buyer demand curve, isn't it POSSIBLE that Sonivox and Fable Sounds don't either? 

This is why I suggested a few posts back that Sonivox run an experiment with their $2,500 Complete Symphonic Collection. By now, the demand for the Symphonic Collection should be fairly stable and predictable. Do nothing different, and it is reasonable to assume sales will continue at their current rate. Therefore, one could predict the amount of profit they would make during the next six months with reasonable certainty. The experiment would be to drop the price of Symphonic Collection (Kontakt version) to half price for the next six months and see what happens. I am a perfect example of why I think this would earn Sonivox more profits. As a music hobbyist, I will never spend $2500 for Symphonic Orchestra. However, if they cut the price down to $1,000 I might buy it. Earning an additional $800-900 from me (assuming a generous additional cost) would be better than earning $0 from me.

I would also note that East West seems to continue to have success with their "variable pricing over time model" so much so that it is now permanent.


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## Martin Hines (Mar 8, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Mon Mar 08 said:


> And BTW, I don't think I am violating a confidence when I tell you that when I first saw the reaction I raised the price point issue with Al. He said to me something like, "Jay, there are reasons I cannot go into why the product has to cost what it does. Trust me, I have been doing this for a long time and I know the ramifications."



It looks like the price of BBB is set in stone -- at least for now.

Feel free to suggest my Sonivox Symphonic Collection "experiment" with Al. I think they could sell alot of copies of that mature product by giving it a significant discount.

Drop that Symphonic Collection price to $1,000 and I will buy it!!!! (I own a lot of the lower price Sonic Implants Gigastudio titles).


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## Ashermusic (Mar 8, 2010)

Martin Hines @ Mon Mar 08 said:


> Ashermusic @ Mon Mar 08 said:
> 
> 
> > And BTW, I don't think I am violating a confidence when I tell you that when I first saw the reaction I raised the price point issue with Al. He said to me something like, "Jay, there are reasons I cannot go into why the product has to cost what it does. Trust me, I have been doing this for a long time and I know the ramifications."
> ...



I already did

BTW, I know I have offended NYC Composer, which was not my intention as he is someone I respect and I know his heart is in the right place. I disagree with him on this issue but I apologize to him if my manner seemed disrespectful or hostile.

I do however, think my point was on target, which is, that if we do not have the education, experience, the contracts, and most of all, the numbers, we should not be telling developers what they should charge for their products.


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## kitekrazy (Mar 8, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Mon Mar 08 said:


> I do however, think my point was on target, which is, that if we do not have the education, experience, the contracts, and most of all, the numbers, we should not be telling developers what they should charge for their products.



But we do. That is often stated in sales. I would imagine some of the higher sales goes to companies where the developers listen and respond to it's users.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 8, 2010)

Martin, I follow your reasoning, and in fact did before your posts too. And I'm afraid you haven't convinced me that you or I have any idea WTF we're talking about.

For example, you're assuming that they're not selling BBB upgrades by the dozen even at a price that some people here aren't happy with! And that they aren't happy with the number of BBB sales they're making at $2200 or whatever it streets at. And that "market share" is important when you're talking about sample libraries (I actually think value is limited*). And - once again - that Sonivox doesn't do better with fewer higher-priced sales due to the sales and support costs. Or even that reducing the price -X% will increase the raw revenue by X%; maybe there's jut not enough of a market for high-priced horn libraries to begin with!

And that they don't feel they have a monopoly and are able to command the price they're charging! After all - taking nothing away from CH et al - we wouldn't be having this discussion if BBB weren't an awfully good library.

And that they don't feel that lowering the price of BBB would devalue future products. What about that?

Get the point?

You and I have absolutely no idea what factors weigh on peoples' minds.

Having said all that, it's been proven that Jay is wrong every time he disagrees with my political opinions. And that he's right: there's nothing wrong with not liking the price of a product - or even with armchair marketing consultancy, as long as everyone who engages in it realizes that it's just that.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 8, 2010)

* About "market share" of sample libraries:

1. Yes, people will buy whatever a credible company offers. Spectrasonics draws crowds as soon as products are announced, for example. But if a guy in a garage in BFE comes out with a great library, nobody cares about the company name.

2. Professional composers tend to buy most of the premium libraries. My hunch is that EW will sell lots of Hollywood Strings to people who have LASS, for example.

If you're talking about $99 hip-hop products that's a totally different thing. People just buy one of those.

***

Also, when EW had that group buy there was a huge demand for EWQLSO Gold. Was VSL's Special Edition even out at that time? So that sale caused the dam to burst. (Never mind that what Hans Adamson once said: group buys are like fishing with dynamite - you catch lots of fish, but the reef is destroyed forever.)


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## Martin Hines (Mar 8, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Mar 08 said:


> Martin, I follow your reasoning, and in fact did before your posts too. And I'm afraid you haven't convinced me that you or I have any idea WTF we're talking about.


Fair enough. You are entitled to your opinion.



Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Mar 08 said:


> For example, you're assuming that they're not selling BBB upgrades by the dozen even at a price that some people here aren't happy with!


I never made any such assumption. Given their decision to keep the price at $2500, I suggested earlier they are forced to charge a high price to upgraders because the majority of their potential customer base already owns the product. I fully understand that Fable Sounds needs to recover the cost of the migration from Haliion to Kontakt, and if my assumption is any way close to being true (that they have sold more Halion BBB licenses than they will sell new customer BBB Kontakt licenses), then they have to hit up the upgrader group for big bucks.

I would assume most of the original owners WILL pony up the $299 upgrade price simply because they want a product that works better than the Halion version.

If I have already invested $2500 in a product that I don't think works very well and I think an additional $299 will "fix the problem" (by running on a better supported platform like Kontakt), I would certainly do it.

I recently had a problem with my car not starting. I took it to a repair shop and they were convinced I needed a new starter motor. The solution worked for a week then my car wouldn't start again. The second time they replaced the battery and now my car starts right up. Was I happy that I had to pay for a second repair? No, but I was willing to pay to "upgrade" to ensure I had a product that worked well.



Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Mar 08 said:


> And that they aren't happy with the number of BBB sales they're making at $2200 or whatever it streets at.


I never made that assumption either.

They very well may be "happy" with sales because they think they got the price "right" -- i.e. the profits they make at a $2500 price are bigger than if they set the price either higher (e.g. $3,000) or lower ($2,000). However, if they never test out the "variable pricing model" like East West does they may never know if they may have been able to gain even higher profits.



Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Mar 08 said:


> And that they don't feel that lowering the price of BBB would devalue future products. What about that?


They may very well feel that. However, I doubt East West feels their own future products have been devalued because they have discounted titles as they age.

There are definitely some companies who stick with "set a price and never discount". Sonivox, Spectrasonics, and now Fable Sounds appear to be examples of this. There could be a whole host of reasons why -- they don't want to hassle with discounting, they are afraid of upsetting existing customers, they fear future products will be devalued.

On the other hand, there are companies like East West who discount products over time (like many other industries) and that model appears to be even more successful.


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## midphase (Mar 8, 2010)

I think there are a decent number of people for whom the USB dongle/HALion combo was a deal killer who now will go ahead and purchase this library.

I also think that there is probably a segment of the market that is not represented here who probably has no problem with the price of the product. I'm talking about the Broadway/Vegas live show crowd. I don't know how numerous that client base is, but it's probably large enough to justify keeping the price where it's at.

Personally I'm of the opinion that if you are going to charge more than $1000 for a time-limited product like a sample library (which will last a few years before becoming obsolete and has no resale value), it better have a wide appeal and be a tool that most people will reach for on a daily basis. In today's slowly recovering economy, that is more true than ever.

Having said that, BBB to my ears sounds really good, and I admit that if I was hired on a project that required that type of sound and whose budget justified making such a purchase, I would give in and buy it. Since typically I don't get hired for that type of sound, and my style of scoring is quite different from the BBB sound (and quite honestly I don't think I'd be very good at it)...I'm happy not having access to BBB in my arsenal.


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## otr5 (Mar 8, 2010)

Anybody got the update already?
a few weeks ago I got a mail saying there will be a short delay
but it was supposed to be delivered by now


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## Nick Harvey (Mar 8, 2010)

I emailed Sonivox last Tuesday wondering when I might expect it. They replied saying that they hoped to start sending out orders at the end of the week. Haven't received anything thus far, but I'm in the UK so shall give it a few more days.


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## Blueshift (Mar 8, 2010)

Keep us posted Nick, I still haven't decided whether or not to bite on this one... though the thought of never having to Melodyne my BBB parts excites me!


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## Mike Connelly (Mar 10, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sun Mar 07 said:


> Understood. My point is that unless you have a marketing degree and/or experience and have the pertinent info that they have, your opinion is not founded on anything solid that makes it of value to anyone but yourself.



That's true. But that opinion is the same value of someone without marketing knowledge who defends their price point.

Does it really need to be pointed out that opinions given on an internet message board are just opinions?

And is it really necessary to characterize someone's opinion on pricing as "telling developers what they should charge"?

A potential customer saying "I won't buy it at that price but I'd buy it at $X" seems like a valid opinion to me.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 10, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Wed Mar 10 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sun Mar 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Understood. My point is that unless you have a marketing degree and/or experience and have the pertinent info that they have, your opinion is not founded on anything solid that makes it of value to anyone but yourself.
> ...



1. I did not defend their price point, I defended their right to set it as they deem prudent.

2. Unsolicited opinions are frequently like anuses-everyone has one, no one needs another. I submit this was just such a case.

3. Not necessary, but I think appropriate.

4. Agreed. But that is different from saying that because I would buy it at the lower price, that is what they really should be charging.

There are obviously competing ideas here as to what a forum should be for. Many, perhaps most here, seem to believe that "because I am free to give my opinion on any person's work or any subject, no matter what my level of skill, knowledge and experience are, it is perfectly appropriate to do so when I want to."

I disagree. My feeling is,"if it is something I have particular knowledge of or expertise about I will venture an opinion. If not, I will not, as it is just noise."

But then again,I do not tweet


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## NYC Composer (Mar 10, 2010)

I think the statement 'I wouldn't buy it at this price point, and anecdotally it seems many others won't either' is perfectly valid, an arguable topic for discussion on a forum where virtual instruments and their price points are frequently bandied about.

Additionally, I also think that someone deciding they are the arbiter of whose opinion is valid and whose is not creates a slippery slope that will probably leave that person open to deserved broadsides.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 10, 2010)

Jay, ya really need to get off this Diogenes-like quest for perfectly informed posts. Put down your lamp , my friend. People generally have the sense to ignore posts that seem uninformed to them, you could do the same-and that's just MY opinion. 'Don't comment on anything unless you know what you're talking about'- on a FORUM? Well, here on democractic VI-sland, you're free to express your desire to see that happen. Practically speaking though, how effective do you think you will be in achieving that goal ? Is the tilting at windmills on object in and of itself, perhaps?

(yes, I know Diogenes was searching for an _honest_ man, but why spoil a metaphor)


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## Ashermusic (Mar 10, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Wed Mar 10 said:


> Jay, ya really need to get off this Diogenes-like quest for perfectly informed posts. Put down your lamp , my friend. People generally have the sense to ignore posts that seem uninformed to them, you could do the same-and that's just MY opinion. 'Don't comment on anything unless you know what you're talking about'- on a FORUM? Well, here on democractic VI-sland, you're free to express your desire to see that happen. Practically speaking though, how effective do you think you will be in achieving that goal ? Is the tilting at windmills on object in and of itself, perhaps?
> 
> (yes, I know Diogenes was searching for an _honest_ man, but why spoil a metaphor)



Probably not effective at all, but to thine ownself be true baby, to thine ownself be true


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## NYC Composer (Mar 10, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Wed Mar 10 said:


> NYC Composer @ Wed Mar 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Jay, ya really need to get off this Diogenes-like quest for perfectly informed posts. Put down your lamp , my friend. People generally have the sense to ignore posts that seem uninformed to them, you could do the same-and that's just MY opinion. 'Don't comment on anything unless you know what you're talking about'- on a FORUM? Well, here on democractic VI-sland, you're free to express your desire to see that happen. Practically speaking though, how effective do you think you will be in achieving that goal ? Is the tilting at windmills on object in and of itself, perhaps?
> ...



In that case, go on witcher bad se'f :wink:


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## EY studio (Mar 15, 2010)

still nothing?


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## Synesthesia (Mar 15, 2010)

Nothing yet. Was supposed to be last week of feb/first week march I think? Hopefully not too long to go now.

Cheers

Paul


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## Stevie (Aug 14, 2010)

Wow http://fablesounds.com/no-forum.htm


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