# Anyone know of any interviews of musicians who have recorded sample libs?



## noiseboyuk (Sep 20, 2010)

This relates to an old, old yet ongoing discussion about the ethics of sample libs. I was reading Doug Rogers' comments that HS had cost $2m, and thinking about the year of recording sessions involved in BBB capturing as much of the "soul" of the performance as possible, and then thinking about the actual musicians. It's a lot of work, and I guess they are well paid... but how do THEY feel about being immortalised in this way, potentially the proverbial turkeys voting for Chrisimas? As I say, I've read plenty of developer opinions and from users of the products, but don't remember seeing the thoughts of the musicians themselves. I wonder if it's because they are concerned about what their colleagues think?


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## Hannes_F (Sep 20, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Mon Sep 20 said:


> I was reading Doug Rogers' comments that HS had cost $2m



including or excluding the salary for Shawn Murphy, TJ, the artwork, PR budget, studio costs (I know it is theirs but maybe they still have to calculate rent/interest) + their own time? That would be interesting.

Say there is 1 m left for 65 players then everybody is looking at 15k, maybe it was 10k, which still sounds attractive for two weeks of work. However how many months can you survive with that money, especially in LA?


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## rpaillot (Sep 20, 2010)

Hannes_F @ Mon Sep 20 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Mon Sep 20 said:
> 
> 
> > I was reading Doug Rogers' comments that HS had cost $2m
> ...



These players are top-players in hollywood, they probably dont have any problems finding gigs


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## Narval (Sep 20, 2010)

Three letters: NDA.


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## Mike Connelly (Sep 20, 2010)

There are probably NDA's from the sample developer in some cases, in others the musicians are the ones who want to keep their participation quiet.


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## Narval (Sep 20, 2010)

David Story @ Mon Sep 20 said:


> session players; they are losing work to Europe, non-union buyouts, etc.
> ...
> Many of them blame it on us composers.


A very undeserved blame imo.
I guess the session players' problem is rather
their own belief that films cannot be made without them. 
Films can be made with them, without them, 
with samples, without samples, 
with music libraries, without music libraries, 
with pop songs, without pop songs,
with music, and without music.
It's the film maker's call in any case.

The film scorer can hire a mockuper, 
who is a session player too - he plays samples.
Often, the film scorer is the session player himself. 
And if his playing is good enough for the film maker, 
why should anyone else have a problem with that?


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## Hannes_F (Sep 20, 2010)

rpaillot @ Mon Sep 20 said:


> These players are top-players in hollywood, they probably dont have any problems finding gigs



That is certainly what they thought before signing the contract and may even think now but I guess many players don't have a technical overview good enough to oversee the consequences.

Musicians that are playing in normal orchestras will not be overly affected. For example in Germany we have around 100 orchestras and I believe only one or two of them earns their money with film music. But especially for the species of LA session musician it might look different and all I can say from my personal experiences is that they certainly need to reach out their hand to composers in this (partly self-fabricated) situation.


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## Hannes_F (Sep 20, 2010)

Narval @ Mon Sep 20 said:


> The film scorer can hire a mockuper,
> who is a session player too - he plays samples.
> Often, the film scorer is the session player himself.
> And if his playing is good enough for the film maker,
> why should anyone else have a problem with that?



That is all fine and good and I think every quality level has its right for existence in this market. However I feel the scene (and especially the film makers) could need (much) more transparency about which method will have which result and at which cost.

How many here are having an exact overview about how much three minutes for a track will cost with which method and can deliver that number together with sound examples of their own work in the modi samples only/samples with added players/ fully recorded orchestra to a director for preparing an educated decision? And by contrast to that on how many composer's websites can I read the sentence similar to 'with modern technology I can provide 99 % of what an orchestra can play' (which is a barefaced lie in most cases)?

So if you say 


> It's the film maker's call in any case.


you are perfectly right but they should be very well informed imo.

I am not sure the session players recording libraries are very well informed. Actually I think they don't know what they are doing.


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## mikebarry (Sep 20, 2010)

Whoever said NDA NDA NDA is right. 

The question is more, how do the unions deal with this?


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## RiffWraith (Sep 20, 2010)

mikebarry @ Mon Sep 20 said:


> Whoever said NDA NDA NDA is right.
> 
> The question is more, how do the unions deal with this?



How does this become a union issue? As in the union contract stipulates that no musician will play any non-union gigs? If that is the case, why has no local come down on any musicians who "play" sample-lib recording gigs - which, I believe, are non-union gigs?

Cheers.


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## mikebarry (Sep 20, 2010)

Yes you hit the nail on the head.


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## Narval (Sep 20, 2010)

Hannes_F @ Mon Sep 20 said:


> the scene (and especially the film makers) could need (much) more transparency about which method will have which result and at which cost.
> 
> ... they [film makers] should be very well informed imo.
> 
> I am not sure the session players recording libraries are very well informed. Actually I think they don't know what they are doing.


Every money making business (!)
is based on others' ignorance.
It's always been like that.
You want transparency? Ha!
No such thing as clean, transparent business -
doing business is dirty by its nature.
There's no business but dirty business.
And there's no business like showbusiness. 

For as long as it lasts, 
ignorance is bliss
for the ignorant,
and profitable
for the businessman.


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## spectrum (Sep 20, 2010)

David Story @ Mon Sep 20 said:


> The players in sampling sessions may live to regret taking that gig.


In fact, quite the opposite is true in the case of the many musicians we have sampled in the last 16 years.

They are all very, very happy with their experience working with Spectrasonics.

Feel free to ask them! There's no NDAs stipulating that they can't talk about how they felt about the experience of working with us.

In fact, most of them are asking regularly to do new projects, because the way we work with them is so much more fair than record companies do.



Narval @ Mon Sep 20 said:


> No such thing as clean, transparent business -
> doing business is dirty by its nature.
> There's no business but dirty business.


Thankfully, there is a better way. 

I was taken advantage of many times as a musician, so when I started my own company I vowed to do things differently.

We do things a lot differently here and as a result, we've had a lot of success....not only in units sold, but in good, long-lasting relationships with everyone we do business with.

It's not easy, but it's also not impossible. 



Hannes_F @ Mon Sep 20 said:


> I am not sure the session players recording libraries are very well informed. Actually I think they don't know what they are doing.


You are quite wrong about this in our case.

We are EXTREMELY careful to let them know exactly what they are getting involved with and everyone who participates does so willingly and enthusiastically. If they don't feel this way, then we don't work together. We want a win-win for everyone.

Bass Player Magazine asked Marcus Miller in an interview how he felt about all his bass licks being sampled for our Bass Legends library. 

He replied:

"Ha-ha! That's not all my licks...that's just what I played that day!" 

Since Bass Legends was released in 1994, Marcus has not suffered a day of lost work due to Bass Legends.

In fact, MANY of the artists we sample GET gigs due to the work they've done with us.

Abe Laboriel Jr. was not very well known before he did Burning Grooves for us. Our project actually got him a lot of work and recognition and of course now he's one of the best known drummers in the world.

I could mention many, many other stories like this of how beneficial our sampling projects have been to the musicians and singers that have participated in them.

So at least in the case of Spectrasonics libraries, you guys have the wrong idea....because we work very hard to make sure that everyone wins. 

Cheers!

spectrum


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## David Story (Sep 20, 2010)

Hannes_F @ Mon Sep 20 said:


> rpaillot @ Mon Sep 20 said:
> 
> 
> > These players are top-players in hollywood, they probably dont have any problems finding gigs
> ...



That's great to hear that concert music is alive and well!

In the US, major symphony orchestra attendance and revenue are down, and the audience is aging.
http://www.americanorchestras.org/images/stories/knowledge_pdf/NEA_memo.pdf (http://www.americanorchestras.org/image ... A_memo.pdf)

Pops concerts and smaller community groups are doing better. Film was a kind of a last bastion, too.

The union can't control sampling, but they can reach out to alienated composers and audiences. It's an education issue all around.

I will ask players how they feel about sampling and report back.


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## mikebarry (Sep 20, 2010)

Its an interesting issue really. 

Hollywoodwinds was meant to be recorded in NY with the NY phil players but the union shot it down. So off to Seattle we went like a ton of other composers.


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## Hannes_F (Sep 20, 2010)

David Story @ Mon Sep 20 said:


> That's great to hear that concert music is alive and well!
> 
> In the US, major symphony orchestra attendance and revenue are down, and the audience is aging.
> http://www.americanorchestras.org/images/stories/knowledge_pdf/NEA_memo.pdf (http://www.americanorchestras.org/image ... A_memo.pdf)



David, just to be clear - the orchestras here are doing so - so, some better, some worse, according to the classical music circumstances, however afik these are not much affected by sample libraries.


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## Narval (Sep 20, 2010)

spectrum @ Mon Sep 20 said:


> Narval @ Mon Sep 20 said:
> 
> 
> > No such thing as clean, transparent business -
> ...


Well, hats off for that!

Keep that prism clean, transparent, and colorful!


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## Hannes_F (Sep 20, 2010)

spectrum @ Mon Sep 20 said:


> In fact, MANY of the artists we sample GET gigs due to the work they've done with us.



Eric, while that might be true in individual cases you can't deny that also your products have taken jobs. How many times have dance bands economized the bass player by the left hand of the keyboard or a sequencer alltogether, and regarding your work before and in your own company I think it is safe to say that more than often it were your sounds used. Which is a great achievement on one hand but still I get second thoughts whenever I see and hear dance bands. This is not an accusation but a little reminder that not everything is honey and floret and the unions know exactly why they are not happy about sample library recordings. 

However it is good that you are caring about the situation and I appreciate that you credit and therefore promote the names of the players instead of doing night and fog actions.

Cheers
Hannes


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## germancomponist (Sep 20, 2010)

+1 for Eric! 

I think Eric is someone who never forgets that he works with people, and that he respects them as such.


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 20, 2010)

I love Eric.

There, I said it.

Well, a complex area for sure. It must be a strange experience for a musician - I'm glad that at least at Spectrasonics many enjoy it and get something out of it. As I said in the OP, if anyone does know of any interviews on the web (anonymous or otherwise) I'd be fascinated to read them.


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## gsilbers (Sep 20, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Mon Sep 20 said:


> I love Eric.
> 
> There, I said it.
> 
> Well, a complex area for sure. It must be a strange experience for a musician - I'm glad that at least at Spectrasonics many enjoy it and get something out of it. As I said in the OP, if anyone does know of any interviews on the web (anonymous or otherwise) I'd be fascinated to read them.



i dont know if links but im pretty sure most are happy its a stable gig but very unhappy to what they have to do for hours end. o/~ 
please play a D legato o/~ 
now please play a D legato again, o/~ 
again, o/~ 
again o/~ 
now play D but softer o/~ 
x1000000
:cry:


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 20, 2010)

Yeah, quite! I tried sampling my guitar last year. I went bonkers. Hats off to anyone who can get through the sessions - which is the GOOD bit - and then THE EDITING.


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## Ian Dorsch (Sep 20, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Mon Sep 20 said:


> Yeah, quite! I tried sampling my guitar last year. I went bonkers. Hats off to anyone who can get through the sessions - which is the GOOD bit - and then THE EDITING.



Amen to that. o-[][]-o


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## poseur (Sep 20, 2010)

David Story @ Mon Sep 20 said:


> You may be surprised at what's happening with run-away production in LA. There's a meeting tonight with concerned session players; they are losing work to Europe, non-union buyouts, etc.
> 
> RMA members, the A-list elite, are feeling the pinch. Many of them blame it on us composers.


it's a terrible situation, right now,
for composers & musicians alike, afaic.

i know, having crossed-over from (specialised) "session"-player to composer,
having mistakenly (in my case, i believe) having released a few sample-discs of my own,
from way back in the day,
that i do (in very specific ways) regret having produced.

of course, the AFM/RMA folks should understand what's been happening to composers,
increasingly,
for the past few years.
even to composers not only like me, 
but also like some of my --- aargh --- more "A-list" colleagues.

the squeeze is on; no sh•t, there.
that squeeze can really come down to working, or not working;
working "dark dates", out-of-town, or not w/real musicians, at all.

even valuable & intense idealism, without an organised, concerted effort
--- ie, the "herding of cats" that needs to include the "big guns" ---
is being crushed by the all-time-low of budgets,
the all-time-high number of entrants to the field,
and producers' abuses of composers, musicians & music in every possible way.
so i've both seen & experienced, anyways.

no-one has a reasonable, consensual answer, so far, i think.
i've had seemingly reasonable producers take meetings w/reasonable AFM reps,
where they receive reasonable & thorough, clear & realistic rundowns of 
what Union sessions might mean to them, value-for-pennies,
only to be flatly rejected.....
in most cases, i've said:
ok, well then..... i'm the only one who's gonna play on this score;
not one of my musicianly brothers will be asked to "suffer" for this.

in one case --- an indie that was, in fact, Oscar-nominated,
i _was_ able to convince the producers to sign an AFM assumption agreement & work,
here in la, w/the best of the best;
of course, it was a hat-trick, and i paid for the score, myself.
that was in 2007.

as an occasional player, having done quite a few (100+?) films in creative playerly capacity,
i can tell you that one of the worst experiences, for me,
was contributing to / playing much on one of the "biggest" films of the past few years,
where the producers were truly ready to fire the A-list composer for insisting that the show
needed to be RMA/AFM.
he lost that battle.
completely.
2008.

9 months before that?
i helped out on what (surprisingly) became another mega-film;
there was the same type of battle, but not much of it.....
the producers were convinced, and
that was the last RMA/AFM film i've participated in, as a player.

'course, i don't do that much, anymore, but.....
i've had the rare opportunity to see the issue from quite a few different perspectives.

no-one's to blame;
everyone's to blame.
look to the producers, to the studios, to the indies & their producers:
really.
_*it ain't really about sample-libraries, at all,*_
but, imo, is about the paltry, weensy residuals
once regularly "offered" (ha! _offered_) to remarkable musicians
for the industry's secondary & tertiary derivations of film-income.
that, and the cheapening of music, in general, since the internet made music "for free".
it's kinda pathetic, imo.
it will change, but.....
if we wanna fix the problem(s), we gotta look to the source(s), i think.

d


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## poseur (Sep 20, 2010)

potentially more on-topic:

yes, i recorded and released 3 sample libraries;
i put no-one out of work (but, potentially myself),
as i was the only musician whom i sampled.

the first one sold very well, the 2nd & 3rd not quite as well.

the samples were unusual;
offering somewhat odd (at that time) integrated & fully musical textures,
the long samples were intended to be used as a backdrop for writing,
and as "source"-audio for musicians' further creative manipulation.

the libraries 
--- especially the first one ---
proliferated through illegal copying, and are still in use,
throughout hollywood & the world-at-large.

me?
i wouldn't ever do that ever again, unless i were paid fabulously well.
ha!
c'est la vie.

d


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## bryla (Sep 21, 2010)

gsilbers @ Mon Sep 20 said:


> a D legato


see this would be hard even for Marcus Miller


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## Narval (Sep 21, 2010)

bryla @ Tue Sep 21 said:


> gsilbers @ Mon Sep 20 said:
> 
> 
> > a D legato
> ...


Nah, my cat can do it.

:D


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## anogo (Sep 21, 2010)

poseur @ Mon Sep 20 said:


> as an occasional player, having done quite a few (100+?) films in creative playerly capacity,
> i can tell you that one of the worst experiences, for me,
> was contributing to / playing much on one of the "biggest" films of the past few years,
> where the producers were truly ready to fire the A-list composer for insisting that the show
> ...



If this is the film I'm thinking about, I had wondered why the composer and musicians weren't around for the sequel. The score to the original is one of my wife's favorites.

Bryan


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