# Chord progressions in orchestral/cinematic music?



## campion (Apr 25, 2022)

Hi, new member here. I'm a beginner who has barely any experience with an instrument, and only has basic music theory. I'm having trouble with my chord progressions, in that maybe I could call them "okay," but as a whole, I'm not sure how to create a story that makes sense. Like, instead of stringing together i-iv-v chords - and whatever else - to see what happens, I'm not sure how to establish the beginning, build the pre-climax, climax, resolution, and end. I'm guessing that something is up with my pacing - but I'm not advanced enough to identify the problems with my piece - which is why I'm posting instead of combing through past threads. Could somebody offer advice/link to resources about techniques or concepts I should learn?

I use Logic Pro X. Spitfire LABS's Long Strings and The Free Orchestra's Sordino Violins, and the song is in D# minor (I know, I know).


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## Gingerbread (Apr 25, 2022)

Just my two cents, but perhaps it's because there's no defined melody? It would be a pretty advanced task to try to tell a musical story with chords alone. A melody would help to define how things build to a climax and resolve. Maybe this video could be helpful in creating specific phrases which develop?




As a side note, your piece is interesting with some great chords, but is approaching strings in a very piano-like manner, with dense closed chords. This makes it sound muddy. Perhaps approaching it with open chords, rather than closed chords, might help.


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## youngpokie (Apr 25, 2022)

campion said:


> instead of stringing together i-iv-v chords - and whatever else - to see what happens, I'm not sure how to establish the beginning, build the pre-climax, climax, resolution, and end.


Actually, you have the beginning, climax and the end already in that formula of i-iv-v-i.

The problem is in taking this formula too literally: using only these 3 chords and only in the duration that the formula implies. That's pop music. However there's a trick to using the formula in a more complex way:

- each symbol is a bucket, representing more than one chord (basically each of the 7 basic chords built on every scale step can be treated as either i or iv or v in this formula. Combining major and minor gives even more options). In other words: I and vi are the same for the purpose of the formula. iv and ii are the same. Also IV and iv are the same. And so on. You can always replace I with vi and keep the rest. There's a lot of options already at this level (admittedly still basic).

- each symbol can also be turned into a string of at least actually 2 played chords using the point above, basically lengthening the duration of the formula. Works in both direction, too: I-vi in place of just I (and the same for vi-I in place of I)

- these strings can be further lengthened or manipulated by changing single notes chromatically in the direction of the subsequent chord: I-I6-vi or I-I6-IV or I-I6-IV-iv so now you have 3 or 4 chords still sitting on just i for the purpose of the formula.

And so on.


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## campion (Apr 26, 2022)

Gingerbread said:


> Just my two cents, but perhaps it's because there's no defined melody? It would be a pretty advanced task to try to tell a musical story with chords alone. A melody would help to define how things build to a climax and resolve. Maybe this video could be helpful in creating specific phrases which develop?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the advice! The muddiness is definitely something I noticed—at first, I made it so that my chords were very open, but I didn't realize that one of the strings I was using didn't have as deep a range as my other instrument, so half of my chords used to be just empty air. I tried to fill in the gaps... and then this turned out.

And the melody! Why didn't I think of that...


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## campion (Apr 26, 2022)

youngpokie said:


> Actually, you have the beginning, climax and the end already in that formula of i-iv-v-i.
> 
> The problem is in taking this formula too literally: using only these 3 chords and only in the duration that the formula implies. That's pop music. However there's a trick to using the formula in a more complex way:
> 
> ...


That's so fascinating! I'm also no longer confused about the roles of the chords outside the basic i-iv-v formula. Thanks for the advice!


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## Double Helix (Apr 26, 2022)

First things first: Welcome to VI-Control. Fortunately, you have landed in a great spot to gather some useful tips & suggestions re composing with your DAW
Write something akin to the first twenty seconds of this piece (I'm not kidding): You will hear that this composer uses essentially a I - V - I - IV etc
Plug in a catchy melody/add some movement, and people will remember you for the next three-hundred years


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## JCarlsen (Apr 26, 2022)

3 topics for you to learn about.

Chord functions:


Musical forms(I like the sentence form):


Cadences:



BONUS Tip. Remember to like an subscribe.


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## ed buller (Apr 26, 2022)

This is NOT a simple fix i'm afraid. Chords are the lifeblood of music that develops. And how they connect is everything. There's a reason WAGNER spent ages on Tristan, it's really quiet a complex subject .

First up, Structure is almost a red herring in film music. It's kinda giving away to much if we have an understanding of where we are. The sense of direction comes from what's on screen.

But If you are trying to write music that isn't film music per se, then some basics always work.

One of the first tricks is secondary Dominants. So in C, you could preempt an A Minor chord with an E maj . Or make it A maj. You can do this to any chord. This works well with a seventh. You can put a diminished chord a semitone below any chord !.....






Deceptive resolutions: Go to the vi from a V7 instead of a i

Tritone substitutions: Swap out the 7th for another chord containing the tritone, So instead of V7 it would be bii7 ( in C that's Db7 ) You can use this for Aug 6ths too !

You can use Augmented 6th chords too. There are three ! Wagner does this a lot !







Modal Interchange is a great way of adding development. This is fairly simple. If you are in C maj try and use any of the chords from C minor to spice things up. You can take this to the next level by CHANGING ( from maj to min and the other way ) any of the chords you pic.

For example in C maj the F chord is a major, try a minor.....the Ab chord is a maj in the Key of C Minor...try flipping it to major. This is called Mixture in the states and it offers LOTS of possibilities

As for structure , well THAT too is a huge subject . and again it depends on what you are writing. There are no real rules except sonata form has some basic principles but these are for long pieces.

As others have said Cadences are very important at setting musical punctuation.


FILM MUSIC has it's own language , Heavily borrowed from WAGNER and early 20th century music . Chords move differently here. Less functional harmony and more attention to just sonarities. Debussy would string together chords JUST for the sound. A lot of film music uses chromatic mediants and chords a tone or semitone apart. John williams uses planing ( from debussy ) chords that move in parallel . A string of 1st inversion minor chords descending chromatically.

The one thing that ALWAYS works is voice leading. You can sell the most ambitious of chord progressions by applying this !

The internet IS your friend here. There are so many videos on this very subject.

Best

ed


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Apr 27, 2022)

Dont forget that there is the other side of approaching it, and thats your….umm….you.

You did indeed really write „telling a story“. That maybe nails it. If you are unsure about what to tell, STOP right there and throw all theory aside for now.

Do something inspiring now by personal preference.

Play a stupid note or chord when you feel it, listen to it and embrace it, hold its as long as you hear something in your head that should follow or change. Dont try to hesitate getting your inspiration from theory at this point (unless you skipped the inspiration part), instead create a representation of what you want to tell. 
Lose yourself in sounds, visual impressions or even stories with characters that are alive and actually acting (and even playing something).
Locate and form your idea, choose Instruments and playstyle that come closest to your story.
Pacing, that happens when you let go off the grid, and the impulse for a change inside you arrives. Hold that single note for eternity and do not force it to stop by any rules that are given by something that you cant control. If its a short note, play it and repeat it when it fades out inside you.
That muse, its in everything (just not in a Metronome if its not broken).

This crystal garden has its complex rules, but you need to enter it first, wandering around in it without your own senses and just others guidebooks explaining why that tree there is in deep harmony with that fence around it, will harm your own first contact and impression. Describe your story as colorful as you can and when its written, no matter how colorful it is, sit down and read that book that explains how you can rewrite it (with your own handwriting) richen it, let it evolve in a way thats always in harmony with what you feel and hear inside. Otherwise there won’t be a connection to your own story.

That usual white-dressed violin girl, standing in that field being roamed by butterflies and dripping sunshine, is thinking….am i just a white-dressed violin girl playing something, or am i really alive?

Ahh… for fundamental theory….its mental, love it.


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## Living Fossil (Apr 27, 2022)

campion said:


> Could somebody offer advice/link to resources about techniques or concepts I should learn?


In music, everything you do creates particles of meaning.
Of course, this "meaning" usually isn't meaning in a literal sense, but rather in an emotional-psychological sense.
Sometimes the meaning also derives from traditions (like the Neapolitan 6th chord, which is a symbol for "death" in European music) which is the reason why sometimes results in such a music that sounds ok for people unaware of the semantical implications, but sounds wrong for people who were raised inside of that tradition. Using harmonic models without feeling what they mean usually creates "dumb" music; music that feels like a "fake".

So, based on this observations, i'd suggest you should learn of course theoretical aspects.
But you also have to develop a sensibility for the meaning that your choices create.
Therefore, it's important to analyse music (in this case its harmonic progressions) that you like and "understand" on an emotional base.

On YT there are tons of harmonic "tricks" that one can apply. Usually they don't talk too much about the implications of these choices.
You can literally use every single combination of chords without any problem. However, each of these choices will not only have a meaning but also create a field of inherent consequences for the rest of the piece.
In the same way as a good unexpected harmonic progression can be extremely beneficial, using an inadequate chord in one place can be harmful to the coherence of a piece.

TL;DR: Whatever you learn, learn it in combination with the psychological-emotional impact that this progression has. A progression that is wonderful in one place, can destroy a whole piece when used wrongly.


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## szczaw (Apr 27, 2022)

This is solvable statistically and programmatically. Collect chord progressions from cinematic / orchestral music you like, and hook 'em up to a Markov chain generator. This is far more practical than studying music theory or pieces of music.


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## ssnowe (May 2, 2022)

szczaw said:


> This is solvable statistically and programmatically. Collect chord progressions from cinematic / orchestral music you like, and hook 'em up to a Markov chain generator. This is far more practical than studying music theory or pieces of music.


Here you go, a Python Jupyter notebook Markov Chain Generator for music generation, let it compose your next masterpiece: https://github.com/subpath/Markov_c...ster/Markov_chain_for_chords_generation.ipynb


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## PedroPH (May 2, 2022)

What I think should work:

Start with a melody. Try to come up with a good one. Don't think about the chords. Don't even think about the key.

Once you have the melody, add chords. A simple chord progression will appear naturally by adding chords that match the melody.

Now, add another melody to follow the first one. If it's a contrasting melody, it's better. It's also nice if it includes variations of elements that are present in the first melody. Add chords to that melody.

Now, repeat the first part with different orchestration.

In a nutshell, start with melodies. Don't get distracted by theory right now.


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## szczaw (May 2, 2022)

ssnowe said:


> Here you go, a Python Jupyter notebook Markov Chain Generator for music generation, let it compose your next masterpiece: https://github.com/subpath/Markov_c...ster/Markov_chain_for_chords_generation.ipynb


If you don't know what chords to use, given enough input, it will give you chord options. Which is more practical than trying to figure out why some composer used this or that chord. You'll never know.


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## MusicStudent (May 2, 2022)

Wow, what a wealth of information from all you folks. Thank you so much for taking the time to address the OPs simple question. This tread will take some study time. Thanks again.


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## JCarlsen (May 4, 2022)

Quick tooltip for experimentation: https://epiconlineorchestra.com/
Its a tool that lets you build simple chord progressions and tips on what chords you could use to get a certain quality or emotion 

kudos to Lukas who i believe frequent this forum.


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## marclawsonmusic (May 4, 2022)

Lots of great advice in this thread already. My two cents would be to spend some time getting good at transcription - basically listening to a piece of music and being able to sit down at the piano (or guitar or whatever) and figure it out. 

Whether it's a melody, a harmonic progression, or whatever... it's a great skill and a lot of fun in the meantime. Just find some music you like - could be orchestral, could even be a Beatles tune - and figure out the parts of that music that resonate with you. 

I remember trying to figure out some chords from 'Am I Not Merciful' in Gladiator. There was some diminished chord that led to a tonic minor and I thought it was so cool when I finally figured it out.

Anyway, I think this serves you well when you hear your own music in your head. You'll be able to sit down and plunk it out.


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## eakwarren (May 4, 2022)

Today I geeked out and explored Markov chains using the *Jupyter notebook* @ssnowe kindly linked to above. I played with it a bit in *Jupyter Lab* and tweaked the output to create a link to the generated progression in the *Epic Online Orchestra* that @JCarlsen suggested.










Fun fact: Epic Orchestra is smart enough to parse the root tonality when loading complex chord data from ie. Schubert with maj6, dim, hdim7, etc. With a crazy link of *https://epiconlineorchestra.com/Gm/Cmaj6/A7/D/Gdim/Dbdim/Cm/Bb/F7/Chdim7/D7/Eb/Cmin6/Dhdim7/Cdim/F?autoplay*, it still plays the root major or minor chords. Nice! 

Here's the notebook for anyone to play with in Jupyter. *https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KOF3UP0zMj1QligmxPucGfxAk67hwazh/view?usp=sharing (Markov_chain_chords_to_Epic_Orchestra.zip) *The data set doesn't have to be just chords but any data represented in text for probabilistic analysis. (Of course it has to be chords to output Epic Orchestra links though.) Use cases could include rhythmic generation, instrumentation, scales, Neo-Reimannian LPRS transformations, etc. Such possibilities! 

</geekout>

-Eric


ps. Anyone know of a robust database of Romantic/Cinematic chord progressions that is easily parsed into this format? Bonus points if you can name the piece from just the chords below. 



> chords
> Eb
> Ab
> F
> ...


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## Rowy van Hest (May 4, 2022)

campion said:


> Hi, new member here. I'm a beginner who has barely any experience with an instrument, and only has basic music theory. I'm having trouble with my chord progressions, in that maybe I could call them "okay," but as a whole, I'm not sure how to create a story that makes sense. Like, instead of stringing together i-iv-v chords - and whatever else - to see what happens, I'm not sure how to establish the beginning, build the pre-climax, climax, resolution, and end. I'm guessing that something is up with my pacing - but I'm not advanced enough to identify the problems with my piece - which is why I'm posting instead of combing through past threads. Could somebody offer advice/link to resources about techniques or concepts I should learn?
> 
> I use Logic Pro X. Spitfire LABS's Long Strings and The Free Orchestra's Sordino Violins, and the song is in D# minor (I know, I know).


Have a look at this, 5-part voice lead chord progressions generator. You can download the result as a music xml and import that file in your music notation software. That will give you the midi as well. And the harmony is automatically analyzed. Original European harmony though, so all capitals.


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