# Selling all my gear. Quitting music



## Dan Mott (Jan 8, 2013)

Hello

I am selling all my gear. However, It's pick up only. So if you are in Melbourne AUS, feel free to contact me and I can give you my details.

I feel I am wasting my time with music. I come up with decent ideas, but I always scrap it and I never continue it because it's not good enough for my standards. I don't think I am a good writer. I feel I used to be, but I haven't written a song in 5 years. I don't know what direction I want to go in and I feel it's pointless. It's quite sad really. 

I'm too much of a perfectionist, as well as a mixing perfectionist. It seems everyone else can get a decent sound, but I am just never happy with my sound.

I love music, but I just don't think I can do it, hence why I can't write anything and have no ideas and I always can't convey the emotions that I want. I definitely cannot do it through synths, that's for sure. I think I'm also lazy, or unmotivated to do anything.

Here is my gear

Speakers - PMC DB1S-AIIs/ADAM A5s - PMCs = $2000/ADAMs = 350. For the pairs.

Computer - intel i7 920 - 24GB RAM - Windows 7 64bit - EX58 UD5 motherboard - Cooler master case - SSD Crucial drive + 7 other normal 7200RPM drives. Message me for more details. My whole computer package is $2200

Keyboard - M-Audio keystation 88e - $99

Interface - M-Audio Profire 610 = $299

Speaker stands = $120

Samsung 24 inch screen = $399

Shame I cannot sell any of my libraries, but oh well.

If you are in Melb and interested, just let me know.

Thanks!


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## Daniel James (Jan 8, 2013)

I really think you have some talent mate. I'm not sure if that means anything to you. 

Self doubt and frustration goes hand in hand with writing music professionally. If you really love music though I encourage you to stick it out and try some new approaches or new styles to bring the fun aspect part into it.

If your mind is well and truly made up, you are still young and I have no doubt you will find something you are really passionate about. Just remember if you know what it is you want in life you can get it if you work hard and really believe that its possible.

-DJ


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## Resoded (Jan 8, 2013)

Keep in mind that Einstein published a whole lot of papers that got nowhere. Thomas Edison invented a whole lot of things that were to no use to anyone. Mozart, Beethoven and Bach wrote things that no one remembers. They say that successful people are only remembered for about 30-40% of their work, what they all have in common though is that they work A LOT.

The problem with perfectionism is that you expect 100% of your work to be successful, and that's just ridiculous. They say that quantity is the key to quality.

I have the same problems as you mate, but I'm trying to sort it all out and I keep telling myself these things. I find it helpful at least to focus on doing rather than doing good. 

Sucks to see you give in mate, you don't sound very pleased with your decision based on what you write.


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## Justus (Jan 8, 2013)

Dan-Jay, what a shame!
Good luck for your next endeavor!

But how can one even think about quitting music? Unimaginable for me a least...


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## Tatu (Jan 8, 2013)

Oh, I've been there a lot of times, almost as often as I've thought: "Fuck this Apple crap and switch to a WIN based DAW".

Never happened, though once - few years ago - I stopped and tried to concentrate on other aspects of my miserable, worthless life. It was the worst time of my life, though the sex was good.

And I believe, that if you sell your gear now, you'll be reaching out for a credit card to buy new ones within a year. If one is passionate about composing, there's no getaway.

If you're not satisfied with what you've done and constantly self criticize your self to oblivion (I believe that that's what most of us do all the time), consider finding a fellow composer(s) to work with and judge each other (ruthlessly, yet also developing each other)  Who knows what might come up from that.


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## angelluisrivera (Jan 8, 2013)

Hey man! Don't give up, I don't know if u're talented or not and really I don't mind, but if it's usefull for u, I was a professional composer in Spain Young & succesfull and have a kid, wife, morgage, and all that "shit", maybe I'm not giong to make anyhing with music again anymore, and I manage now an advertising agency here, but that doesn't matter, the question is;

Do you like music?
It makes u feel happy?
Do you have fun doing it?
It makes u feel like nothing else happen where u are in your studio?
Can u stop thinking about melodies when u are in your car, shower, taking a walk or whatever?

So... What the hell happens if u think u're not Mike Verta, Hans Zimmer or whoever, music is just for fun, in my case make me happy just sit On the studio and hitting some keys, who cares if u think that u don't sound "technically correct", just have fun and keep doing it... 

I'll tell u one thing... If I was your age with all the technology & libraries that are available nowadays i would never quit even if I don't make an € with my music, I'm 42 now and i just do it to have fun, plus taking out all this melodies out of my head...

Man, you are too young, keep doing it and have fun, that's the only purpose making music, and my advice now is, forget about making music profesionally even if that's your goal, my best "era" was when I did music just for fun because I love it, and think about it, now i just regret for quiting when I was your age and starting to Work in a regular Job...

But this is just my personal view, I wouldn't give up, and sorry for my Wake English...

Good luck anyway
Plus, if Daniel James say u're talented that shocks help u to make a right decission


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## Ganvai (Jan 8, 2013)

Oh man, Dan-Jay. It happens so often to me that I think:

"Oh dear boy, better stop that shit. You're making a fool of yourself."

But I was always fearing the last step to quit totally. And what a luck (for me, not for you) I did not take this last step.

The decission to make music is never a reasonable decission. I think it's something deeper. And if you once have decided to make music, there is hardly a way to come along without.

So please, don't sell your gear (as you have something very good) and just take a little outtime. Maybe you should try to set you limit, let me say you don't think two month about even making music. You don't even think one month about writing music. If you can do this, than you can try to sell your gear. 

A long time ago my grandpa told me something I will never ever forget. 

He said: "Boy, it really doens't matter what you play, how good you're playing or how successfull you're playing. But when you make some music every time, it's the most wonderfull thing in the world, no matter how hard times are. It's the most important thing that keep's you alive"

He had to know what he was talking about cause he survived WWII. Even when he was 65 and not anymore able to play an instrument, he was standing on a stage and playing with playback, just to get the feeling.

I think he was right with what he said so take my advice: Don't stop making music.

Best regards,
Jan


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## Kralc (Jan 8, 2013)

I remember a couple months back you posted a piece asking if you should keep going, and I thought "Man, wish I could do something like that."

Don't quit man!


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 8, 2013)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiCRZLr9oRw


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## danielcartisano (Jan 8, 2013)

Don't quit!

We have all been there... Doubting ourselves, hating our sound... it's all part of the job.

I will not be satisfied until I can earn a living through my music, but till then I have to stay strong and work. This is what all of us have to do.


If your mind is made up, really sorry to hear.

I don't want to contribute to this, but I wouldn't mind the Adam A5's... Would you post them to Sydney by any chance? In a few weeks?


Hope you stick around though, fellow Aussie


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## Caedwallon (Jan 8, 2013)

If you no longer enjoy yourself in our world of music, perhaps your heart lies somewhere else. If there is some semblance of enjoyment in there, then by all means, stick around!

I used to have a perfectionist attitude too; then I realized that the _supreme_ gift of an artist is knowing when to _stop_ trying to perfect that which is already good enough. Perhaps, this is an acquired skill. I don't know.


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## Alex Cuervo (Jan 8, 2013)

Words of wisdom:




Ira Glass from This American Life on creativity. I have some issues with the typography on the motion graphics, most notably the use of foot marks instead of apostrophes (rookie mistake), but Ira's message is really right on and inspirational.


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## Dan Mott (Jan 8, 2013)

Gee, thanks guys. I didn't expect such nice support. 



I do love music. I know I do, but most of the time, I feel I'm not worth it to the gear I have. I'd rather give it someone who can actually make songs and produce well, if you know what I mean.

Not sure what else to say really. It's 2:30am, perhaps I'll sleep on it.

Cheers again!


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## George Caplan (Jan 8, 2013)

Dan-Jay @ Tue Jan 08 said:


> I feel I am wasting my time with music. I come up with decent ideas, but I always scrap it and I never continue it because it's not good enough for my standards.



what music training did you get?


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## Dan Mott (Jan 8, 2013)

George Caplan @ Wed Jan 09 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Tue Jan 08 said:
> 
> 
> > I feel I am wasting my time with music. I come up with decent ideas, but I always scrap it and I never continue it because it's not good enough for my standards.
> ...



None...


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## George Caplan (Jan 8, 2013)

Dan-Jay @ Tue Jan 08 said:


> George Caplan @ Wed Jan 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Dan-Jay @ Tue Jan 08 said:
> ...



right ok. heres the thing. first off i can tell straight out that you dont want to give up music. how can anyone give up music if you really give that some thought? second up is you probably just need to get some training. its really that simple dan. if you have absolutely no training then you can become like a rudderless ship. not just in music.

most people actually like training. a lot of people will rebel against it but once they start into it they come to like it a lot. things happen when you train in music. this is me actually playing. you dont have time to think note to note. its all about muscle memory and training. maybe you dont like bach in this instance but this gives you an idea of what im rabbiting on about.

https://soundcloud.com/midcap


the beatles always said they had no training. bullshit!!. they were trained by chuck berry and buddy holly and a host of others and practiced hard on their guitars.

you just need to train on a keyboard first. its keyboards everyone uses to attach to computers so its no good saying im a trombone player. keyboard training is where its at for you. ideas are no good if you cant improvise on a keyboard where you dont have to worry about your fingers not working properly. you cant be thinking note to note. it must just happen. training and practicing that training will allow that to happen eventually.


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## whinecellar (Jan 8, 2013)

Another vote for not giving up, Dan. We've all been there and we're all hard on ourselves - we should be! But you have to cut yourself some slack and give yourself the freedom to fail. By that I mean the majority of what we write usually isn't our best, and it takes a lifetime to get really good at something!

Maybe you're just burned out; so take some time away from it for a while. Nothing wrong with that - especially if it's not your primary income. But good heavens, if it's not your primary income, take the pressure off yourself and do it for enjoyment! What a gift!

None of us is immune to what you're feeling. One of the most encouraging things I ever heard was in a Gladiator feature when Zimmer said he felt like a hack and wondered if it was all over (or something like that) - then finally an idea came. Check it out.

Of course we're not all Zimmer, thankfully (and I mean that as a compliment to him). But don't necessarily hold yourself to that standard! Give it everything you've got, but don't measure your success by what you don't have 

Best wishes Dan - rooting for you!


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 8, 2013)

OK, here I go again being the bad guy but I will do so because I actually have come to care a little about Dan-Jay:

Composing, whether for career or hobby, is DIFFICULT. It's SUPPOSED to be difficult. When one encounters hard times with it, if you have training it has taught you techniques to work through it. If you are untrained, then the only thing that will get you through it is a FIERCE DESIRE to do it and the courage to write SOMETHING every day while turning off the judge in your head.

If you cannot, then you are fuc%ed so you might as well quit and sell your gear. Man up, or walk.


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## Jimbo 88 (Jan 8, 2013)

Don't give up Dan!

you will regret it in the long run.

Find a song you really like. Load it in your DAW. Transcribe it as best you can, but it does not have to be accurate. In fact the least accurate the better.

Rephrase the melody. Re Do the harmony. Spice up the Rhythm. Keep the basic form of the song. Rewrite the lyrics from a different perspective perhaps just opposite, Example:

"Feels So Right" becomes "It Ain't So Bad"

Keep tinkering until you do not recognize the original song. When you've completely redone the song, put it away, find another song and do it again.

It's fun and you'll be back before you know it.


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## EthanStoller (Jan 8, 2013)

Also, don't forget that there are other careers in music aside from composing or mixing. One that I have some experience with is music editing for TV/films. It's a great career for someone to be creative musically without needing to write or mix. Also a terrific opportunity to collaborate with and learn from the pros. Best of all, if you're reasonably proficient with ProTools etc. there's not a ton of new skills you'll need on the technical side. I wish someone had told me about the job of music editor 20 years ago. Maybe give this site a browse before you sell everything: http://www.musiccareer.com.au/index.php/Main_Page


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## NYC Composer (Jan 8, 2013)

Do you find yourself having a problem finishing songs/tracks? If that's the case, i have some thoughts. If not, never mind and good luck with your decision


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## Jimbo 88 (Jan 8, 2013)

Oh yea! I forgot the other thing to do in your situation. Find someone to collaberate with. Let them finish what you started or verse visa or vise versa (dyslexia strikes at the most inopportune times)..


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## chimuelo (Jan 8, 2013)

I started off at the age of 18 w/ signed groups as if I were recruited on a sports scholarship, opened for several of my childhood idols, became like a family and after 10 year run it all ended one day, and I was suddenly w/o any known future.
I woke up from my nightmare in Las Vegas making good money working 6 nights a week until I can no longer step onto a stage.
So if I can handle having drunks yell Freebird at me everynight, you can finish what you started.

Snap out of it.......

Cher Bono as Loretta Castorini in the Movie Moonstruck MGM/United Artists 1987


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## sluggo (Jan 8, 2013)

Dude, if your hobby doesn't make you happy then definitely stop...it's that simple. Pick up a paintbrush or a camera or a bow and arrow or a dirt bike or a tutu or a chunk of clay. Whatever makes you happy. I'm in the business for 17 years and have about as much frustration as you have. Especially lately. Then there are fleeting moments of reward and validation. Unlike bullying, it really doesn't get much better. Your eyes, and ears just become more and more open to the world around you.


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## MichaelL (Jan 8, 2013)

Dan, 

I do not know you, or your music. But, I will say this, you are young, very young.
At 22, you have time to walk away and walk back several times. You have time to acquire the musical training that you say you lack...and you will STILL be young.

Someone said that the reason most people fail is not because they are destined to fail, or are not good enough, but because they don't give it enough time, they quit before they succeed. 


* "I don't know what direction I want to go in and I feel it's pointless."
*

Take a break and give yourself a chance to answer that question. I walked away at 44, and went to law school. At 52 I walked back in and completely redefined my direction. 

You've got 2,000+ posts on this forum. That's a lot of time spent not writing and/or studying music. 

It's easy to get distracted by long-winded discussions about which washboard sample sounds real or which deeply sampled legato kazoo is the best....a lot of which is BS in the real world. 

Sometimes there's a ton of negativity and sour grapes on forums, where people who are frustrated vent. That often rears it's head in judgmental discussions about good music/bad music...blah blah blah. The point is you get a lot of conflicting information thrown at you, which can be overwhelming, confusing and potentially discouraging. 

As my wife says, "it's time to turn down the chatter," so you can hear your own voice, and then maybe you'll discover your direction.

Best of luck to you, whatever you decide. 

_Michael


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## Ed (Jan 8, 2013)

Come on man I had the same issues as you did back when I started and you are doing things far better than me at the time. There's nothing wrong with your music and you have a lot of talent, much more than a lot of people I hear that are doing this professionally I might also add. From what I've seen you mainly need to get to grips with arranging your ideas, this I always found tough and still do today but you just get better at it with time. 

The best thing that helped me is actually having a real project to write for, rather than just making music with a blank canvass with no intent or visuals. I'd find some really cool visuals, doesnt have to be a trailer, maybe try one of those slick adverts, and try and write music for it. For me this helped with arranging because it forces you to get an idea and do different things with it as the picture demands. After a while of doing this, it becomes easier to do this without the picture.


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## ThomasL (Jan 8, 2013)

Dan-Jay @ 2013-01-08 said:


> I feel I am wasting my time with music. I come up with decent ideas, but I always scrap it and I never continue it because it's not good enough for my standards. I don't think I am a good writer. I feel I used to be, but I haven't written a song in 5 years. I don't know what direction I want to go in and I feel it's pointless. It's quite sad really.
> 
> I'm too much of a perfectionist, as well as a mixing perfectionist. It seems everyone else can get a decent sound, but I am just never happy with my sound.


I did what you're planning to do now way back in 1999.

I may be way off but this is what worked for me.

1) Plan. Set a goal. Know what you want to achieve. And then do it.
2) Limit yourself. Don't set out to write the best song ever written, write one that is the best one you will write today (or this week/month).
3) Perfectionist. Hhhmmm. In my case it was simply the fact that I hadn't fixed the first step, I had no goal and didn't know what I wanted to achieve, hence the "perfectionist" in me said it was no good. I have taken up several songs now years later and now I like them better, with a little work some of them would even make me proud.

Also, at the time I had a not so "happy" girlfriend who couldn't care less of my music so I sold everything. I didn't start with music again until 2006/2007 but I missed everyday without it.

I wrote a blog-post for Beatelite last year that discusses what I've said here in short, please take a look: http://www.beateliteblog.com/getting-what-you-want-thomas-mavian-guest-post/ (http://www.beateliteblog.com/getting-wh ... uest-post/)


I hope you take a good nights sleep on your decision.


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## José Herring (Jan 8, 2013)

Sell your gear, ok. But, don't quit music. 

Just start over. 

I start over once every couple of years. Usually at the some point where I'm just not happy with anything that I'm doing. 

If there's any wisdom in age (and I'm not sure there really is, but...), it's that every time I've "started over" I realized the only reason why I got frustrated was because I wasn't doing music that I really cared about, but rather was chasing after something that I thought would make me "more successful".

And, every time I've started over, I've gotten closer and closer to what it really is I want to write. 

I kind of consider it the growing up process.

Recently I just started an album project just of music that I feel reflects me and what I care about. And, the funny thing is I don't care if anybody else likes it. It's liberating. 

But at 22 you have a whole life ahead of you. Think about your future. What is it that you want to do. If you're not there yet. Not much to worry about. Write bad music for the next 10 years. Who's gonna care.

Get those skills down. Take mixing courses. Spend the next year just studying that which you feel you're weak at. 

I mean, you have at least 8 more years before people start judging you materially. Whether your successful or not. So spend the time learning and searching.


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## Niah (Jan 8, 2013)

People forget that creating music is also tons of fun...

Don't take it too seriously Dan just have fun, baby steps you know...

on a second thought I could use some more RAM hehe (just kidding)


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## gsilbers (Jan 8, 2013)

maybe take a small break and enjoy other things for a bit. 
your equipment is not THAT expensive. the libraries are prolly more pricey.


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## schatzus (Jan 8, 2013)

If you love it, you will be back. Then you will regret having wasted more time by NOT doing it. I've read your posts for some time now and it sounds like maybe you need to take a short break. Music will always be there for you when you get back.

Remember, perfectionism is not what art is about. 



> Art is not a race to be won by crossing a finish line at a certain distance. Art is not about capturing something ‘perfect’ and showing it to the world.
> 
> Are is about the imperfectness of it all, of life. Art is a teacher that teaches that this thing we’re doing is not about coming in first (whatever that means). Art shouts to us that we are all different and yet similar at the same time. It screams that this is not a race for we’re all running in different directions.
> 
> ...


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## Daryl (Jan 8, 2013)

Dan-Jay @ Tue Jan 08 said:


> I feel I am wasting my time with music. I come up with decent ideas, but I always scrap it and I never continue it because it's not good enough for my standards.


Coming up with decent ideas is talent. Knowing what to do with them is craft. It sounds to me as if you need to to spend a lot of time learning the craft. Why on earth you would think that it should just happen is beyond me. You wouldn't think that about anything else.

I think that you need to take some time out and spend it studying. That doesn't mean you have to go back into education (although that would probably help), but it does mean that you need to spend time analysing music, dissecting it and learning how other people put things together. Learn how to structure your music. Learn about development. Learn about instrumentation. Once you have a better idea of how music fits together, you will stand more chance of applying what you have learned to your own compositions.

There are successful )whatever that means) composers who haven't had formal training, but I would bet that all of them have rigorously studied the music of others, sometimes almost religiously, in order to make up for what they haven' learned from formal educational. You will only get out of this what you are prepared to put in to it.

D


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## Peter Alexander (Jan 8, 2013)

I don't know your family background, but from what you've written since you've been here, it strikes me that you expect to hit your goals with near instancy since you have "the stuff" to produce with. 

I see this all the time, someone sets the right goals but also sets an unrealistic timetable to fulfill them by. 

I encourage you to start at the beginning with keyboard lessons and get into the habit of not just practicing, but the joy of playing and performing. 

Then after a period of doing this, come back and begin recording yourself so that you have an audio diary of your progress. 

One thing I have noticed is that the quality of your posts has changed. You are now more thoughtful and reflective. I see this as a good thing. You're maturing. And others here have affirmed you in what they're hearing in your music. This is also good.

The voice of reason is this: start at square 1, piano playing, and build up to grade level 2 which can be achieved in a year. Do this much. Master it. Then at year's end, reassess and look at going to grade level 3 then 4. 

Mastery builds confidence. But master one thing first, and while you're at it, take down the for sale sign.

If you want help PM me.

PA


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 9, 2013)

Peter - imo that approach works for some people but not others. I'm just too left-brained for that to work for me - I'm a plough in, trial and error kinda guy.

And as this thread shows... that can mean a lot of trial and a lot of error.

To quote St Bono, Dan sounds like he's stuck in a moment and he can't get out of it. A break is one good idea, Ed's comments about scoring to picture are helpful, and Dan might respond to your back-to-square-one approach. Or he might not.

Personally I think the real devil here is the perfectionism. It's a curse. I've never produced anything perfect in my life, but I think I'm in good company. There's a great phrase about movie making - films aren't finished, they are abandoned.

Chances are we all have much loved tracks by others that we consider to be perfect. Maybe they are - chances are many of those creators are far more aware of the imperfections than we fans are. Or look at George Lucas - the only thing he was completely happy with about the first Star Wars movie was the score (um, is this a good example, guy?) Yet he appeared to be delighted with The Phantom Menace. Most outside observers formed a different conclusion - George himself did not appear to know what was good about his own movies. And yet the fact remains that was the genius that made A New Hope.

Not wishing to be snide or clever, but I honestly think this is a psychological problem, not one of talent or skill per se. And I bet Dan is in good company - every single one of us will have our own demons that sit on our shoulders from time to time (or all the tome), all with different and unique pitchforks with which they poke us. I don't know what the answer is in Dan's case, only Dan can find his own way out - if he wants to. But being comfortable in your own skin is probably the most important thing of all... who among us can say for sure what Dan should do to achieve that?


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## Ed (Jan 9, 2013)

Yea, if he is anything like me learning music theory and sitting for hours and hours "practising" keyboard skills, would make me want to run as far away from music as I could get


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## Arbee (Jan 9, 2013)

"Perfect is the enemy of good" - look that up and think about it until you fully understand it (took me 20 years :oops: ), then you may see things differently.
Good luck with what you decide mate. I'm just on my way back into music after many years away, funny how life goes o-[][]-o .

.


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## choc0thrax (Jan 9, 2013)

Dan-Jay, you can take a short break from music or do what some of my friends did and just go to law school. After many years you'll become a lawyer which will finally unlock the secret within you that "Yeah, uh, I think I'm like actually a creative person, lol?" Then you can come back to music. At this point in time you are now 30 and plunking out tunes on a keyboard in your parents' basement. And as you sit there hunched and unshaven, you slowly come realize with dawning horror - that with every key you hit, your man-tits jiggle.


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## Tatu (Jan 9, 2013)

choc0thrax @ Wed Jan 09 said:


> Dan-Jay, you can take a short break from music or do what some of my friends did and just go to law school. After many years you'll become a lawyer which will finally unlock the secret within you that "Yeah, uh, I think I'm like actually a creative person, lol?" Then you can come back to music. At this point in time you are now 30 and plunking out tunes on a keyboard in your parents' basement. And as you sit there hunched and unshaven, you slowly come realize with dawning horror - that with every key you hit, your man-tits jiggle.



Wonderful words, Sir. Wonderful words.


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## Dan Mott (Jan 9, 2013)

Hello guys.

Thanks for your support. It's really nice. I will admit, this isn't the first time I have posted a negative about my work.

I'm still thinking. This thread has made me think a lot, especially about my bad habits. Have to break those.

I still feel like I'm not worth my gear, but I guess that's just how I feel right now.

Taking piano lessons is something I have considered actually, but I just need the drive.

Not sure what else to say, but thank you to everyone. I didn't expect people to care really.


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## Consona (Jan 9, 2013)

The original post feels like I wrote it myself so I think I could share some of my thoughts.


I'm a perfectionist by nature, I have OCD and stuff like that. And I'm a master of procrastination.

I've realized perfectionism is all about fear. Your brain tells you something terrible will happen if something is not accomplished. Like other people will think that you are bad at what you do, etc.

All artistic criteria are artificial. What somebody likes other dislikes. So you cannot please everybody and you can be sure some people will like what you do.

About technical side of things. I have problems with my sound too. But I think the only way to overcome this is mixing your stuff over and over again, trial and error method, because in the end everyone will tell you _there are no rules in music mixing_. You will not be able to make stellar mixes right from the start. It needs experience.

For me music is something intuitive. When I don't think about what I'm composing it goes by itself. When I start thinking about it I can never go on because I'm full of doubts. I've never studied music, I have carpal tunnel syndrome on both of my hands so I cannot play any instrument (maybe theremin could be an option :D) yet I'm still capable of composing. Because I hear everything I need in my head. Music composing is not difficult. It's easy as breathing on the seashore. But this is just my experience, because I don't think about music, it flows inside my head all the time. I don't think about chord progression or harmony or whatever. This is something that stops me everytime. But I can understand everybody has different personality so everybody needs dissimilar approach.

So maybe you need lessons about composing and piano lessons, maybe you don't. But regardless of this try to label your fears so you can work with them. Feeling of perfection is subjective, so don't be affraid you are not good enough. You probably are, your fears are just holding you back. Even the most simple melody, even a simple tone is beautiful thing, who cares how complicated or whatever your compositions are or are not. Just enjoy music composing and when you cannot just name the fear you have at that moment and work on overcoming it.

World is so fanciful. It's nice to have a dream to sound like somebody or something but when you cannot achieve it it's not the end of the world. There is so many ways how to sound and a lot of people will appreciate you are different.

But if you really don't have a strenght to go on just take a break, go out, clear your head. What you are experiencing is not sad or bad it's just indication you need to take a look from another perspective. Just don't feel depressed of something. Good luck on finding your way.

...Just one big IMO.

edit: some typo correction


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## NYC Composer (Jan 9, 2013)

What the heck, here's my sage advice.

Whatever you start writing, finish. Dont have a hundred song starts lying around that you dont see through. In simplistic songwriting terms, make sure it had a beginning , a middle, and an end. Mix it to the best of your ability, but dont torture yourself over it. In other words, finish. Move on to another song. Repeat process. Do this for a few months.

Theres a good feeling to buiding up a body of work, finished pieces. Now you can go back and listen. What you may find, as I do, is that some things will sound pleasingly better than you remember, and some will sound worse. Re-mix to your hearts content. Then move on and repeat the process- work for another few months, listen, remix, move on.

The advantages to this process are:

1. It forces you to finish stuff
2. Which builds a body of work
3. Keeps you from getting into an endless cycle of mixing one thing
4. Improves your writing and mixing through doing
5. Gives you a methodology and a structure, which can help some people

This is the way I work. I learn through doing. Not everyone works this way, and there's a lot of good advice about practicing and studying in this thread-it's just not the way ive gone about it for the most part. I learn experientially. As far as my " finish things", it comes from a very simple statement I heard once that was a "duh" moment for me, but had a profound effect: " A writer _writes_".

In other words, dont wait for inspiration- just write. Every day. (or whatever schedule works for you, but stick to it)

Cheers.


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## Consona (Jan 9, 2013)

@ NYC Composer: VERY good advice, at least for me...


May I ask you guys something?

Where does the frustration come from in your case?

Composing was difficult for me when I really liked some music and I tried to sound similar, then I realized my mind is different from minds that created that music and I've stopped trying to sound like some particular movie or band or game and a lot of my frustration has disappeared. Now I'm just frustrated about getting my mixes sound better.


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## George Caplan (Jan 9, 2013)

[quote="Dan-Jay @ Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:]


Taking piano lessons is something I have considered actually, but I just need the drive.

[/quote]

if you start taking piano lessons i promise I will help you with any related taking piano lessons & practice technique questions you come up with. you will be amazed at what you can achieve just after a year of new playing techniques. there will be frustration and times where you think youre not progressing. that is normal.


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## MrLinckus (Jan 9, 2013)

Dan-Jay @ Wed Jan 09 said:


> Hello guys.
> 
> Thanks for your support. It's really nice. I will admit, this isn't the first time I have posted a negative about my work.
> 
> ...



Man how often i think to quit anything or just asking myself what i'm doing wrong that i can't become the self conclusion with my music... i know there are many people out there who likes the crap i write :D and well every 2 Month still fell into that dark whole where is no way out ... and i'm sitting on projects and have no idea what to write ... but then every time something magical happens and the motivation is back... and ideas are back...

Don't quit, it isn't worth quitting when you have a bad time, man! Bad time ever follow better times! Trust me and anyone who tells you to stay focus... 

FL


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## ghostnote (Jan 9, 2013)

Hans on composing Gladiator:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBHi4U3Gb7U

It's sad to hear you want to quit, but seriously: You love to listen to music, otherwise you wouldn't have started doing it. Keep your stuff, take a break and overthink your situation, because: if you really quit you'll have more free time > which you'll use (sooner or later) for listening to music > which will lead you back to composing. Don't give up dan-jay, just give yourself some time and finish your tracks.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 9, 2013)

Consona @ Wed Jan 09 said:


> @ NYC Composer: VERY good advice, at least for me...
> 
> 
> May I ask you guys something?
> ...



In my case, it comes in every form. I tend to be a little hard on people, but never as hard as i am on myself.

On my best days, i think im a pretty good writer. On my worst, i think i suck. The trick is to forge on regardless.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 9, 2013)

Michael Chrostek @ Wed Jan 09 said:


> Hans on composing Gladiator:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBHi4U3Gb7U



thanks for posting that, Michael - not seen it before.


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## MrLinckus (Jan 9, 2013)

I think i saw it on the Special Edition a couple of years ago ... but like Hans' said here its everytime the same with my projects and any other composer i know ... its just how we do it... there is no tutorial to find ideas ... but our mind plays with us :D 

I think that is pretty cool :D so no worry...


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## Chriss Ons (Jan 9, 2013)

Dan-Jay, some seriously good advice here but I like in particular what Larry is hinting at: you need to strike a healthy balance between being your own worst critic and your own biggest fan, so to speak - and for most people a steady workflow is key when trying to evaluate their own progress. 

I honestly think that to give up composing would be something you'll regret later on. Most clichés hold a lot of truth: one of the worst feelings a person can have is about things they _didn't_ do in life... having to look back and say: I could have / should have, but didn't. 

It's worth thinking about that before you renounce you faith in your own capabilities. Or sell your gear.

And to everyone who has difficulties accepting the fact that much of what you write doesn't survive your own criticism in the end... well, you're in very good company:
http://www.therestisnoise.com/2007/07/s ... hapte.html


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## Jimbo 88 (Jan 9, 2013)

Check out what James says at about :59


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1hk96-ACi4


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## Daniel James (Jan 10, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Wed Jan 09 said:


> Michael Chrostek @ Wed Jan 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Hans on composing Gladiator:
> ...



Haha me either. There are some dubstep worthy quotes in there 

-DJ


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## Rctec (Jan 10, 2013)

I haven't read all the posts, so I don't know if anyone has mentioned the rather brilliant and serious lecture John Cleese gives on how to manage creativity. It's on YouTube.
I just write every day. Like a diary. Whatever I have written that day Is finished and I move forward, without looking back, without another day noodling around. It is what it is, eventually something good will happen. Sometimes it's a bar, or a phrase...but it's never more than a minute or so a day. When the distracting critic on my shoulder gets too loud, I go home. Or I call a composer friend and kick the thing around together. But I'm the slowest, nerdiest composer in the world. And happy.


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## germancomponist (Jan 10, 2013)




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## NYC Composer (Jan 10, 2013)

I'm happy to be in good company.


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## TheUnfinished (Jan 10, 2013)

It's a variation on what's been said before, but...

Just take some time out. Go on holiday, make a film, write some poetry, make your own bread... whatever it is, take some time away, but fill that time with something.

See if you still have the pangs to write after a few weeks. If you don't, then sell your stuff. And maybe you've picked up a hobby in the meantime!


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## snowleopard (Jan 10, 2013)

I am like Ed. Sitting and studying theory, analyzing classical music, practicing scales, it all made me want to run away from music. 

I'm 50 and have been a musician to one degree or another for over three decades. I still can't make the music I want to hear. Everything is flawed, everything inferior to someone else. All of it. 

I do thus see the appeal of purging. But I would probably come out the end owning something like a single autoharp as a single creative outlet.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 10, 2013)

snowleopard @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> I am like Ed. Sitting and studying theory, analyzing classical music, practicing scales, it all made me want to run away from music.



That is one of the saddest statements I have read here. Studying and practicing is how you get good at anything.

I am consistently having clients say to me i.e: "Jay, you are just brilliant with Logic, you know so much, you must be a genius." Which as you guys know, I am not.

What I AM is a guy who would read the manual, try something 20 times which would not work, and then the 21st time would say, "Oh wait a minute, NOW I get it."

It is clearly possible to be successful and even possible to get good without study and practice. But it is the exception, not the rule. 

The message we should be sending young people is "Study hard and practice a lot".


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## germancomponist (Jan 10, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> The message we should be sending young people is "Study hard and practice a lot".



+100!

o=<


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 10, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> The message we should be sending young people is "Study hard and practice a lot".



I think this is one for its own thread. I know it's been discussed before, but it's a huge subject - imo this thread isn't the place to go into full scale debate on it.


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## Arbee (Jan 10, 2013)

For your craft - yes "study and practice a lot".

For your art - find the child within, be attuned and sensitive to the world, be curious and be happy to just "play" without inhibition.

For your productivity - just get off your arse and do something every day until you get a workman-like rhythm going in your life. And, get fit to keep yourself motivated and clear headed.

For your success - communicate, network, market yourself, be totally committed, persistent, a true professional, and know the audience you're writing for.

Sorry for the sermon, it just popped out :oops: :shock: 

.


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## Ryan Scully (Jan 10, 2013)

Hi Dan,

There is a lot of great advice in this thread and a good reminder of how strong and valuable this community is to it's members. Your very passionate about music from what I've read of your posts through the past few years and it would be a shame if you ultimately decided to turn it in. 

The advice to work hard and write everyday is so true when it comes to sustaining your drive in music. It's easy to fall into limbo or self doubt when you dont have consistent work or deadlines to keep you at your post. I agree that it's also so important to finish your work - Even if I think a track is sounding like total garbage I will work it to conclusion. Few things are more satisfying to me than turning something around and having the end result validate the time and hard work. 


Ryan :D


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## krisol11 (Jan 10, 2013)

This forum is so great!

Composing is hard sometimes, creativity and perfectionism is sometimes hard to play together. 

But if someone writes day to day, note per note, it arrives someday where the sun illuminate a song. Just poetry! 

:lol:


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## Ed (Jan 10, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> That is one of the saddest statements I have read here. Studying and practicing is how you get good at anything.
> 
> I am consistently having clients say to me i.e: "Jay, you are just brilliant with Logic, you know so much, you must be a genius." Which as you guys know, I am not.
> 
> ...



Its about how people learn and what inspires them. Many people get inspired by maths, I do not. The method of teaching music traditionally is predominately one way, if you dont get inspired by it the only option to learn it is to have the patience to push through it anyway. I dont say anything against studying or learning, you most certainly should, but formal traditional training is not the only way to do that. Most music is not classical, so unless you want to write concert music or John Williams where you will need those skills, it could put you off for good. People come to music for various different reasons, a big mistake is in thinking everyone is inspired the same way you are. by the same things you are. The most important thing whatever you do is make sure you keep yourself inspired while doing it.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 10, 2013)

Ed, I don't mean to attack anyone here and so I hope no one takes this personally.

I listen to a lot of the Member Compostions posted here. Those posted by the trained people overwhelmingly are, in my subjective opinion, considerably better.

Oh, and how this relates to Dan_Jay's's predicament: If you are trained and you are having trouble producing a finished piece, you can write a tone row. invert it, do it in retrograde inversion, etc. and write a contrapuntal part or two against it and sooner or later, you finish a piece, which gets you going. I literally have never experienced writer's block for more than a day. On any given day I can write a finished piece of music. It may not be great, but it will start somewhere, go somewhere, and end somewhere in a reasonably well crafted way.

That is what training gives you.


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## George Caplan (Jan 10, 2013)

being trained doesnt have to mean formal and exams. training is essential because it gives you breadth and stops you from getting too narrow in your output. the art of playing comes with practice to the point where you dont think.


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## Arbee (Jan 10, 2013)

Being as insecure as any other creative human being I find that some training (formal or informal) helps build confidence and battle the demons. If nothing else, that alone is worth it for me.

.


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## wst3 (Jan 10, 2013)

can't decide which previous post I like more...

Jay's point is so pragmatic, and so useful. Self taught or university trained or whatever, the tools are indispensable. They will get you out of a bind, and I'll confess, sometimes I start with theory if I'm really lacking for inspiration. Finish the piece? No START the piece<G>!

And Arbee's point hits home - and it's nice to know I'm not the only one that battles with insecurities and uncertainty... I can't say that training eliminates these problems (at least it didn't for me) but geez I'd be a mess if I was facing them unarmed!


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## NYC Composer (Jan 10, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> snowleopard @ Thu Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > I am like Ed. Sitting and studying theory, analyzing classical music, practicing scales, it all made me want to run away from music.
> ...



I don't disagree, if that works for someone, but:

I stopped reading manuals around '82. They just drove me nuts (especially the ones written in Japenglish, which was most). Instead of reading manuals, I dove into things and figured them out until I got stuck, and then tried to find the solution in the manual. I do that to this day.

I have little formal training, some years of piano lessons, playing in school orchestras. I did read books and try to emulate players and bands I admired. I practiced the instruments I play, less for technique than to gain a wealth of riffs and stylistic playing that appealed to me As far as book learnin',. I am especially indebted to Don Sebesky's book 'The Complete Arranger" for teaching me some voicings and instruments ranges.

My point is that people learn in very different ways. Classroom learning made all my ADD alarm bells go off. Classrooms were like prisons to me. Playing in crappy bands was freedom. Writing ANYTHING was freedom. 

I have certainly trained in various ways and practiced my craft in various ways, but in terms of creativity and writing, I reiterate-a writer writes. The grit and determination it takes to keep going past self doubt are some of the strongest determinitive factors to, if not a successful life in composition, a more fulfilling and satisfying one.


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## Daniel James (Jan 10, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> I listen to a lot of the Member Compostions posted here. Those posted by the trained people overwhelmingly are,* in my subjective opinion*, considerably better.



That bold part means that there isnt much point getting into it but I wanna throw my 2c in anyways.

Training, practice and discovery are all important. However one does not need to be classically trained to be creative or successful.

Sure if you are trained classically you can fall back on your tone rows, retrograde inversions, counterpoint etc when you are stuck....HOWEVER you could just as validly say if you get stuck you could crack out a synth to design a whole new sound, pull up some sounds you created before and manipulate them until you catch onto something that inspires more creation. 

Both require training and practice to do well but classical training is not the be all end all solution to writing music. Try taking your classical music training and writing some dubstep. 

So what I think I'm getting at is training = important. Classical training = only if thats what interests you. Music has evolved into alot of different worlds since classical training was first around.

-DJ


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## dgburns (Jan 10, 2013)

Daniel James @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > I listen to a lot of the Member Compostions posted here. Those posted by the trained people overwhelmingly are,* in my subjective opinion*, considerably better.
> ...



well said,and you know,i think I'd rather someone write and share even if they are not where they think they aught to be.

I for one,don't think music should be considered a "one-up manship"sport where the game is to be the most technical and compete with the most "athletic" arrangements in some bid to get ahead.
the consumers of music far outnumber the ones who create it imho.so question is-

who are you writing for? what would they be happy with?


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 10, 2013)

Daniel James @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > I listen to a lot of the Member Compostions posted here. Those posted by the trained people overwhelmingly are,* in my subjective opinion*, considerably better.
> ...



Well you know what I think of Dubstep. It is to music what Boone's Farm is to wine

Study and practice are indeed not limited to Classical music, but listening to a bunch of trailers and trying to ape what you hear with libraries is neither IMHO study nor practice in any real sense and certainly will not help you when you get into Dan-Jay's situation.


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## Daniel James (Jan 10, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> Daniel James @ Thu Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jan 10 said:
> ...



I wont get into the dubstep debate other than to say there are millions of electronic music fans who would furiously oppose your opinion. However its just an opinion, which you are entitled so we will leave THAT there.

With regards to learning by listening... Speaking from my own personal experience, everything I know about composition I learned via listening, sure you may think areas of my work are elementary however I try to counteract my shortcomings from the classical angle by being creative where I am skilled, with the sorts of things you dont learn at music school like musical sound design or audio manipulation. As long as you practise what skills you have that allow you to be musically creative there is no 'right or wrong' way. Only skilled and unskilled. Be that classically or a mash up of diffrent styles you have worked out how to do via listening and can use to help create.

-DJ


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## Peter Alexander (Jan 10, 2013)

> Training, practice and discovery are all important. However one does not need to be classically trained to be creative or successful.



Daniel, you know I respect you, but you've radically missed the point as have several others comments in this thread.

Our craft is made up of, or least as been made up of:

melody
harmony (chords)
rhythm

There are songs, and there are musical compositions. There's song form and there's compositional form. 

All of these are made up of the same two elements: pitch and rhythm.

The great French music teachers of the 19th Century called these elements language. And that's what you're learning - language. Language is made up of vocabulary, The more harmonic vocabulary you have, the better your range of musical communication. 

This doesn't come from doing academic exercises. It comes from learning the core elements and mastering them so that they're available to you on demand. And you master them through a process known as OSA - Organized Screwing Around. Or as they say in academia - experimenting with the elements. 

Once you have the core language down you can move in any direction you want because then you understand that the so-called "rules" of music are first stylistic to a specific genre and then within that genre by the individual artists who create and/or perform it.

That's it. My original training wasn't classical, it was jazz. But studying outside my comfort zone, didn't hurt my career, it only broadened it. My two great mentors, Goldsmith and Mancini, taught me in so many words but mostly by observation that once you have the core vocabulary down and you learn how to teach yourself you can move in any compositional direction you want. 

It's not about being classically trained. So please, quit hanging that career killing notion on me and others. It's about core competencies, knowing how to learn, and then knowing how to apply what you've learned by doing it.

Regarding the right vs the wrong way: Yes and no. When you study how the great composers taught themselves, as I have, what you discover is that some ways are more effective than others to go from A to B. This is quantified, so it's not an opinion matter.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 10, 2013)

Folks - please please let's move this debate regarding training elsewhere. It will go on for 10 more pages, and it may - or may not - be something Dan is interested in, in his particular situation. To help, I've started a new thread here - http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3673975


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## Daniel James (Jan 10, 2013)

Peter Alexander @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> > Training, practice and discovery are all important. However one does not need to be classically trained to be creative or successful.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No no I wasn't saying that classical training is bad or wrong. I was saying that its not the be all end all. You proved that yourself by saying how you came from Jazz. Everything I know about compositional form I learned from listening, deconstructing, then applying that to my creative toolbox. 

What I was pointing at is that however you write music (and by music I mean what music means to you because that varies wildly depending on a person and their background) it doesn't matter how you learn it, and one way is not necessarily superior to another its all about what you as a composer find interesting and how best to learn it. Again there is only skilled and unskilled with the former coming from study and practice as Jay mentioned whatever form that comes from.

You could goto school for years to learn classical harmony, counterpoint etc but it wont help you when writing a dubstep cue (using that example again because its an extreme you can all relate to) while at the same time someone who studies dubstep will have a tricky time writing a symphony. Both are writing music, and to a high standard in their respective fields. One does not stand superior to another. 

I'll read this when again when I'm not shaking from caffinee and edit it to be clearer but I think I said what I was getting at.

-DJ


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## NYC Composer (Jan 10, 2013)

Sheesh Guy-in the next GhostBusters movie, I'm nominating you ThreadMaster!


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## Dan Mott (Jan 11, 2013)

Thanks again guys. I'd respond individually, but yes, just want to thank you all again for the support.


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## Aaron Sapp (Jan 11, 2013)

Haven't read all of the posts, so sorry if I repeat what others have already said:

What you're feeling is NORMAL.  It's an important (and inevitable) rite of passage that most composers feel at some (or multiple) points in their lives. 

Keep your gear. If you manage to sell it, I guarantee you'll eventually regret it, if not immediately. 

As NYC Composer said, the best thing you can do is to sit your ass down and WRITE. Everyday. Make it an absolute point to write from such and such a time to whenever. Inspiration or not. Sweat that shit out. Trying to avoid potential disappoint is probably the worst thing you can do for yourself. 

Don't get hung up on trying to achieve whatever "sound" you have in your head. Just make it a point to write, write, WRITE. If you can do that, you will inevitably get to where you want to be. Guaranteed. It just takes lots of elbow grease and patience. 

Needless to say. TOTALLY NORMAL. It will pass. And come back. And pass again. It's all part of the process. As Churchill said, "If you're going through hell, keep going."


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## George Caplan (Jan 11, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> Sheesh Guy-in the next GhostBusters movie, I'm nominating you ThreadMaster!



:lol: :lol: :lol: 

this thing about electronic music fans. ignore that dan. i thought this was about music and learning through training and your own individualism. there isnt a musician out there dead or alive including bach who didnt get by without the help of others in the craft.

talking about things like dub music is all good but there are different requirements here as far as i can tell based on your op. electronic noise isnt going to help you get going to toward where you want to go to right now.


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## Daniel James (Jan 11, 2013)

George Caplan @ Fri Jan 11 said:


> NYC Composer @ Thu Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Sheesh Guy-in the next GhostBusters movie, I'm nominating you ThreadMaster!
> ...



Maybe switching things up a bit is exactly what he needs? The whole dub thing was a tangent anyway not directly related to the OP, more in response to Jay....which incidentally started a new thread (I always reference dubstep because of how polarizing it is)

Now I think about it actually, in all seriousness Dan, have you thought about trying out some new genres? just for fun even? Alot of people here will just say pfft ignore all that electronic music nonsence but it can actually give you a fresh perspective on things push you into places you have never been before, re-ignite that enthusiasm that turned you onto music in the first place. I mean even George above is kind of hinting that electronic music is a wasted path, thats one less person standing as competition to your electronic orchestral hybrid 

-DJ


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## Kejero (Jan 11, 2013)

Daniel James @ Fri Jan 11 said:


> Maybe switching things up a bit is exactly what he needs?



+1
Nothing as refreshing and satisfying as learning new things, playing with new toys and getting inspiration. As a bonus, it keeps you busy, writing music. And truly, the only way to get better is to write, write, write.


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## George Caplan (Jan 11, 2013)

Daniel James @ Fri Jan 11 said:


> George Caplan @ Fri Jan 11 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Thu Jan 10 said:
> ...



sure trying different things is always good. but in an ideal world you are just going to have to take my word for it that there is a defined path when it comes to training. techniques in learning im sure have changed over time but the end result should always be the same. that is not having to think about technique when you play and if youre on a computer then that will be on a keyboard quite a lot of the time. physical improvisation is very important and is part of training. inputing notes with a mouse can result in very good sounding work as far as i have heard so far but it will never make up for physically working out on an instrument. thats why guys like electronic sounds. there will always be masters of any given style. but for most its the noises that hides their inability and weakness in the playing department. massive beats with some pad like sounds and bleeps type deals. i can do that but according to pad and bleep aficionados i am probably crap. :lol: 

if you dont want to do this and not worry about any of that then thats all good too. what im betting though is the type of guy that gets into dub music or one genre 999 times out of 1000 wont be able ever to do anything else. one trick pony which is all they ever want. which is great because they dont want anything else im guessing. then when that genre folds you never hear of most of them again. why is that? no training would be a major factor.

you just have to work out what you want.


pad and bleep is the next big thing. phone goldmans and get your money in right away. :lol:


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## Dan Mott (Jan 11, 2013)

Hello guys

Well I wouldn't do dubstep haha.

I actually always thought of doing some new metal stuff. The best way to describe it would be stuff like Limp Bizkit/ Rage Against The Machine, ect, but I just never even tried haha. They were my childhood bands. 

I think I should share my habits with you guys.

Note, that is is what happens every time I try to write something in these exact steps.


1. I never really have melodies in my head. I don't think I'm that type of "music maker". I only get melodies in my head when I find a great sound I like that inspires me.

2. Once I find a sound that inspires me/mucked around on the piano or playing some strings, I begin to figure out either a decent melody or harmony and build from there.

3. Everything goes quite well. Once I have written the melody for my inspiring instrument, I can generally find it really easy to add in 1 or 2 counter melodies/ harmonies with a bassline. My harmonies are mainly always strings, considering that I relate to them emotionally. I prefer to have them as the base of my tracks.

4. So here is the stage that I start failing miserably. So I have a nice base, but then I realize that I have no direction to where I want it to go. I also have no idea what genre I am writing for. I used to write alot of pop and I always wrote choruses first, so in my head I am thinking, hmm.. is this a chorus, or an intro or a verse, or maybe it's none. 

5. Worst stage here. 5 hours has past and I have looped the track over and over again until it's starts to sound different (worse). I also begin noticing the whole "sample" thing and I begin to tweak, TWEAK and tweak and never being satisfied to what I am telling the samples to do. Maybe my sample work stinks, who knows.

6. After all that listening and no direction and no more ideas, my self doubt comes in and it tells me that I suck because I haven't written a note. I then think the track sucks and eventually after a week or no progress, it goes in the bin. It's a habit. I do this with everything. The amount of little things I have made and deleted....

7. I start a new track and all the same points happen again.


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## Daniel James (Jan 11, 2013)

Dan-Jay @ Fri Jan 11 said:


> Hello guys
> 
> Well I wouldn't do dubstep haha.
> 
> ...



I say try it man. Get out the guitar and start throwing down some rock layers, try layering it in with what you have learned so far when it comes to orchestras, create your own hybrid sound. 

It sounds like right now you are frustrated in your work because you are writing how you have been lead to believe its supposed to be done. I know it sounds like a cliche but have some fun with it! Most people here wouldn't have even though about trying some Nu Metal style mixed with orchestra, which means your inner ear wont be clinging onto conventions, you can try whatever you want and so long as you really stick with what YOU think is creative and not slip back into how you think its SUPPOSED to be written it can be awesome. 

A little trick I have always thrown in when I am self doubting about my music is to put SOMETHING down. Just a rhythm track, a piano track, whatever that way if your creative brain is struggling you have something your technical brain can play with like...hmm this rhythm hear would be better if it was like this or this piano line would be a little better if it was here, then you will find your creative brain starts chipping in with things like HEY WHAT IF WE PUT THIS GUITAR RIFF HERE. Then slowly but surely it all starts to come together. Its rarely something you sit down and know what you are going to write, its organic, it develops over time.

I'd say whenever someone tells you there is a 'defined path' to writing music what they mean is 'there is a defined path to conventions' There was a time when that defined path would have told you that playing a tritone was the thing of devils, until those who stepped away from the conventions just did it and now we have all sorts of evil sounds  So yeah always take when someone tells you 'this is how its done' with a pinch of salt....shit take what I say with a pinch of salt.

-DJ

p.s I'm over 24 hours now so I may be a tad incoherent


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## Consona (Jan 11, 2013)

@ Dan-Jay: So you basically don't know how to expand your composition after a few bars? You could just do what you've done to this point with pop songs. Take some easy structure like A, B, A, B, solo, B and compose in this manner. It is much easier to compose riff by riff than to evolve themes, etc.


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## Frederick Russ (Jan 11, 2013)

This feeling is super normal Dan. Almost all of us have been there if not all. 

You've apparently reached a crossroad where you can either choose 1) to quit now and walk away forever, or 2) to press on and dig deeper into your passion. I've talked to many who have chosen the former and deeply regretted it. 

_To me, this is less about quitting music than quitting your passion._ 

Its basically a universal challenge we experience from time to time that we've lost our way and what mattered to us deeply before ceases to matter as much. So the important thing is really sit with what's really bothering you. Take time to identify the core reason of why you wish to quit something you obviously loved deeply before. Find out where the doubt stems from. Because I can assure you that it doesn't just stop with quitting music.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 11, 2013)

Dan-Jay @ Fri Jan 11 said:


> Hello guys
> 
> Well I wouldn't do dubstep haha.
> 
> ...



Try partnering with someone? Sometimes it's good to have a collaborator who can throw in an idea that advances your idea.


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## Ed (Jan 11, 2013)

Dan-Jay @ Fri Jan 11 said:


> 4. So here is the stage that I start failing miserably. So I have a nice base, but then I realize that I have no direction to where I want it to go. I also have no idea what genre I am writing for. I used to write alot of pop and I always wrote choruses first, so in my head I am thinking, hmm.. is this a chorus, or an intro or a verse, or maybe it's none.



I totally understand where you are coming from. Thats why you need a project to write for even if you have to give that to yourself. I suspected this is how you thought, this confirmed it. Honestly find a scene, or a trailer, or an advert and write to that. The one rule is it has to inspire you.


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## JohnG (Jan 11, 2013)

I agree with Ed. Get a project, maybe a student film, and just try it. The film itself will lead you forward to the next idea.

That said, it may be useful to try conceptualising a bit, especially once you have something you like. Why is it good? Why does it work against picture? 

The reasons why your idea -- even a fragment -- is working well could be lots of things. If you are stuck, identifying why it works well (to you, not anyone else) can be very helpful at getting to the next bit of music. Based on interviews, I'd say Hans Zimmer and John Williams both do it. 

Here are some ways in which music can work:

1. The music defines the character

2. The music tells you something the character is feeling but is not already obvious (she is sad, but smiling or showing a neutral face). Try to avoid underlining what's already there, unless you're writing for a comedy.

3. The music provides energy.

4. The music is percussive and there's a fight -- bang, wham.

5. There are spears a-plenty and the music is "spiky."

Then, do more of that -- take what you've already written say, for the strings, and ask yourself, "what in brass or winds would also be spiky / sad / energetic?"

But working on a film or an imagined story can inspire a great deal, and help you avoid endless revision.

Also, write what you love. If you love metal, write metal.


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## Darthmorphling (Jan 11, 2013)

Ed @ Fri Jan 11 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Fri Jan 11 said:
> 
> 
> > 4. So here is the stage that I start failing miserably. So I have a nice base, but then I realize that I have no direction to where I want it to go. I also have no idea what genre I am writing for. I used to write alot of pop and I always wrote choruses first, so in my head I am thinking, hmm.. is this a chorus, or an intro or a verse, or maybe it's none.
> ...



I have been playing guitar off and on for 30 years. At one point I was pretty technically proficient. However, I am a perfectionist to the extreme. It is easy to come up with riff ideas. I have written 1,000's. Some are pretty good and most are pretty crap. To this day I have never completed a song.

I can never piece together more than two ideas before my inner critic tells me it sucks. I find myself doing the same thing with my orchestral mockups. My critic is freakin' harsh. I'll be driving home listening to some music and a pretty cool idea pops in my head. I will do my best to remember the sound until I can get it recorded on my phone. Once I play the melody into my DAW my critic starts in.

Your process is almost a mirror to what I do. 

I have toyed around with the idea that we might have some sort of compositional thread each week. The idea being that a member, can contribute a melody and we can try and write a short piece with that melody. This way we can see many different ways to orchestrate. This would be mainly geared for newbies, but if a professional composer would like to join in it would be certainly welcome!

It wouldn't have to be a melody. There can be different styles as a requirement, or we can set restrictions with how many different instruments can be used. We can even do Dubstep :twisted: 

This would give the people involved a sort of deadline like Ed suggested.


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## wst3 (Jan 11, 2013)

JohnG @ Fri Jan 11 said:


> I agree with Ed. Get a project, maybe a student film, and just try it. The film itself will lead you forward to the next idea.<snip>
> 
> But working on a film or an imagined story can inspire a great deal, and help you avoid endless revision.
> 
> Also, write what you love. If you love metal, write metal.



That really struck a chord (pun intended!)

I had been doing a lot of arranging, mostly for pop stuff. Heck the whole reason I became interested in synthesis back in the 1970s was that I could not afford to hire an orchestra, and I wanted to hear what my ideas sounded like outside my mind!

Anyway, I became interested in composition somewhere along the way. And so I started writing. And for long periods of time I will adopt a very workman like approach, writing something every day, no matter how it turned out, just to work on the craft.

But I didn't really get anywhere.

For most of this time I have also been very involved in live theatre production, mostly as a lighting designer, sound designer, or guitar player in the pit.

Several years ago I was designing a show for a director who I had worked with a lot, and who happened to be my baby brother. He asked me for some original music for scene changes. I wrote something, and it worked really well. It was simple, just two guitar parts, but it worked. Hmmm...

For the next production he asked for a LOT more music, an entire score. I would wager that my entire skill set took a HUGE leap - I became more proficient with Sonar and my virtual instruments, I became MUCH more proficient with Finale, I became more proficient as both a composer and arranger, and I finally learned how to finish a project!

That last part is probably the key.

I am not yet a great composer or arranger, and I have a lot left to learn about using virtual instruments effectively. But I've written a couple of scores since, and they've worked out pretty well. Thus far the scores have been played by live players, I am still not satisfied with my mock-ups - especially after hearing them played live<G>!

And this year I am writing at least one, and maybe two scores for the same company. Since this is still a sideline two scores in one season seems a bit daunting, but I'm thinking it might teach me to work more efficiently<G>!

So here's a suggestion - if your imagination works such that you can create a vivid picture while reading a stage play then use that as your springboard. It could be anything from Shakespeare to Stoppard. It should probably be something that you have not seen, but maybe I'm wrong about that.

For me it is still better to have a real live project with a real live and looming deadline, but everyone works differently...


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## adrianoc (Jan 11, 2013)

Darthmorphling @ Fri Jan 11 said:


> I have toyed around with the idea that we might have some sort of compositional thread each week. The idea being that a member, can contribute a melody and we can try and write a short piece with that melody. This way we can see many different ways to orchestrate. This would be mainly geared for newbies, but if a professional composer would like to join in it would be certainly welcome!
> 
> It wouldn't have to be a melody. There can be different styles as a requirement, or we can set restrictions with how many different instruments can be used. We can even do Dubstep :twisted:
> 
> This would give the people involved a sort of deadline like Ed suggested.



I used to be a member of another forum that existed for the express purpose of doing just this sort of thing. The idea was that you'd create a short tune each month. It didn't need to be amazing, it didn't need to be polished, it just needed to conform to a particular criteria. Each month a different person would decide what the particular criteria would be for that task.

They could be as specific or vague as you like - examples could be;

- write something in a 5/4 rhythm
- write a piece only using 4 notes
- write a piece in a country style
- write a piece that makes you think of summer

Aside from that criteria, the only other rule was that you finish and post something within a month. Whatever length, and however "finished" you may consider it to be. There were people of all levels and with different aims, but it was always a very positive and constructive experience - everyone can learn something from everyone else.

It was absolutely great for focusing the mind, for forcing you to break habits and try different things, and (most importantly of all for those of us that suffer from perennial "it's not finished / it's rubbish / I hate it"-syndrome) it was really great for making you stop fiddling and criticising, and just finishing something before you move on to something else.

Lot's of other things the OP could try (including just taking a good break from music - nothing wrong with that at all to take some time to figure out if you still enjoy music or what it is about it that you really enjoy the most), but a monthly composition exercise can work wonders!


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## dpasdernick (Jan 11, 2013)

Taking a break from music is like taking a break from masturbating... it ain't going to happen. 

I just watched a TV show that had Steven Speilberg and John Williams talking about their realationship to an audience of young film makers. A girl asked the question "What advice can you give us aspiring film makers?" John Williams said something that hit me like a ton of bricks. He said "Set relaistic goals. If you set your goal to be Steven Speilberg then, chances are, you will go through your career forever dissapointed. You will always feel failure" (I'm paraphrashing but this was the jist of it) "Set realistic goals and keep moving forward"

Dan, I have had similar moments. I think we all have. I'm much older and still too stupid to call it a day. Music can be a harsh mistress, especially these days when there is so much competition and so many talented people not able to make their way. I think I'm writing some cool stuff but who the hell cares? I have some pop songs on Itunes and Youtube but it's just more megabytes of 1's and 0's in the ether. The reality is that the dream may never come but will definitely *not *come if you give up.

Take a break. You may find that you don't miss it and that it was just a moment in your life. I'm betting you'll be back. 

I do wish you all the very best of luck!

Darren


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 11, 2013)

Ed @ Fri Jan 11 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Fri Jan 11 said:
> 
> 
> > 4. So here is the stage that I start failing miserably. So I have a nice base, but then I realize that I have no direction to where I want it to go. I also have no idea what genre I am writing for. I used to write alot of pop and I always wrote choruses first, so in my head I am thinking, hmm.. is this a chorus, or an intro or a verse, or maybe it's none.
> ...



Loads of good advice here on this thread, and I agree with Ed. It might be too artificial, but how about adding a deadline to the mix too? If you can find a short film, give yourself 16 hours (or whatever) to score it, come what may (even if its an existing project, and it's purely an exercise). Deadlines are spectacularly good at focusing the mind and forcing you to go abandon musical dead ends before they spiral out of control.


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## givemenoughrope (Jan 11, 2013)

Dan,

It's too late. You can't quit.
You could sell your gear, move to Siberia, get hit by a bus and fall off a cliff and you couldn't escape it. You could be Daniel Day Lewis' left foot and you'd still tap it eventually. You're already pushing notes and ideas around and you'd have to be dead for it to stop.

Just take a break and give your mind a rest though. Be kind to yourself.


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## Dan Mott (Jan 11, 2013)

Thanks everyone.

I have been reading this thread a lot.

Makes me feel a bit guilty too 

The only thing I can think of is to have a really long break and see if I get any inspiration within that break. I'm not really enjoying the whole music thing right now. It's not fun. Perhaps a break could get rid of my habits.

I guess I'll see what happens within that break. For now, I'm still thinking.

Cheers again for the advice. Wouldn't hurt to try some things that have been said actually.


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## chimuelo (Jan 12, 2013)

Hey I found some inspiration at 0400 hours. 
I have been playing all of my life and everynow and then never feel like quitting, but feel I am missing something else, or not evolving and this only happens when I have time off to go skiing, or camping, just getting away up to Yosemite or Tahoe but even that gets old.
But I always love PBS as it's art of all kinds, Monet, Symphony performances, etc.
But tonight I saw the movement in LA form the late 60s and early 70s I dreamed about as I was just a child, but made me move to Californis years later.
It was a history of the Troubador, and it really showed all of Artists, Comedians, Actors/Actresses, just a real special time, and for me a reminder of what got me interseted as a 10 year old kid.
It started with Singers and Songwriters of the Woodstock era and went all the way to the James Taylor / Carol King 2010 Troubador ReUnion.
It's really inspiring, you might get something from that. I know I did, as I seemed to forget what picqued my interests, and this was a great reminder.
American Masters is a misleading name, but search through the titles and see if an era you really are drawn to is there.
The one I spoke of had Cheech and Chong, Steve Martin, John Lennon, Elton Johns first gig, just really great behind the scenes stuff.
For a minute I was reading the credits as they always have some insight and I must be overwhelmed by LASS, and I thought I saw Andrews name in the credits.....^&^&^&
That's when I knew I had to catch up on some sleep.


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## hbuus (Jan 12, 2013)

Dan-Jay: Sell your gear and quit music. It will be one of the best decisions you've ever made. I know what I'm talking about, because I quit music myself a few years ago after feeling pretty much the way you do about the whole thing.

And guess what? I've never regretted it. Not one second. On the contrary it feels like I've been set free. Gone are all the self-blame for not performing as well as I think I should musically. Now I can just pop in and read this forum every once in a while with a relaxed point of view about the whole thing.

If you do not have enough talent for something, trying to achieve within the field will only make you feel miserable. Then it's better to quit and focus on something that makes you feel good.

Best,
Henrik


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## Dan Mott (Jan 12, 2013)

hbuus @ Sat Jan 12 said:


> Dan-Jay: Sell your gear and quit music. It will be one of the best decisions you've ever made. I know what I'm talking about, because I quit music myself a few years ago after feeling pretty much the way you do about the whole thing.
> 
> And guess what? I've never regretted it. Not one second. On the contrary it feels like I've been set free. Gone are all the self-blame for not performing as well as I think I should musically. Now I can just pop in and read this forum every once in a while with a relaxed point of view about the whole thing.
> 
> ...



Did you always feel like that when doing music? Or was it a slow process, leading toward you quitting?

I used to have fun composing. I remember I used to go and find female singers, then I'd write lyrics for them the day they came over, as well as a full song. I was on fire back then and I didn't think, I just did. I have no idea how I wrote that stuff back then or how my mind could just think of things. My mind is so different now.

Wonder what's changed.


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## hbuus (Jan 12, 2013)

That's a good question. I used to have fun composing too. Hm...thinking it over, I think it was a slow process that lead me to quit.

I used to be very creative as a young kid, writing music for Commodore 64 demos and games. But even back then I never thought that what I accomplished was really worth much (and hearing my old music today just confirms that feeling ) 

I wrote some pretty good (from an amateur standpoint) cover versions of Depeche Mode songs. But to be honest, I just haven't got the talent to write music, that's all. It sounds like you come from a little different background, seeing that you used to write stuff that was good, but have somehow lost the talent. That's a shame. Perhaps a long break is in order, then check afterwards if you feel better about the whole thing. One thing's for sure, it's no good having a hobby where you simply torture yourself for not performing. That's no good. 

Today I'm happy with my new, or rather old, hobby, HIFI. So all the money I'm saving from sample libraries I no longer have to buy, they are just spent on HIFI equipment instead  It's a stressless hobby compared to when I was making music.

Perhaps you also have something you'd rather spend your time on compared to making music? Friends, girlfriend, other hobbies.

Best,
Henrik


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## Dan Mott (Jan 12, 2013)

hbuus @ Sat Jan 12 said:


> That's a good question. I used to have fun composing too. Hm...thinking it over, I think it was a slow process that lead me to quit.
> 
> I used to be very creative as a young kid, writing music for Commodore 64 demos and games. But even back then I never thought that what I accomplished was really worth much (and hearing my old music today just confirms that feeling )
> 
> ...




Interesting.

Yes, I feel the same way. I don't think I have the talent to complete a song anymore. If I did have talent, then I could.

People tell me I'm talented, but I think they are just being nice 

I agree, hobbies should be fun and I should enjoy them. However, I do not have any other hobbies, nor girlfriend haaha. So I guess I should find another hobby and see how much I like it.


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## ghostnote (Jan 12, 2013)

A great vid about how to go on and finish projects (starts to get interesting @ 7:18 ).

http://youtu.be/xN7yuZl9pfI?t=7m18s


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## chimuelo (Jan 12, 2013)

Dan-Jay @ Sat Jan 12 said:


> Wonder what's changed.



A lack of fine trim... ~o)


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## Goran (Jan 12, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> Ed, I don't mean to attack anyone here and so I hope no one takes this personally.
> 
> I listen to a lot of the *Member Compostions* posted here.



:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: If I were really, really mean, I would probably say this has to be our Freudian Slip of the Year...

(Sorry Jay, no harm intended, I just couldn't resist this one...)


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 12, 2013)

Goran @ Sat Jan 12 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed, I don't mean to attack anyone here and so I hope no one takes this personally.
> ...



Are you sure it was not intentional on my part? :twisted:


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## George Caplan (Jan 12, 2013)

Dan-Jay @ Sat Jan 12 said:


> I agree, hobbies should be fun and I should enjoy them.



i would sit there like a zombie listening to hifi if i were you. i mean why do anything you dont enjoy or is hard? o-[][]-o


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## Justin Miller (Jan 12, 2013)

Hey Dan-Jay, please don't give up... I feel pretty uninspired at times and it takes a while to realize that it's because I'm not writing with other people or talking about music with other composers... We prop each other up, and without the community of composers we really don't have anyone to receive deep and true appreciation from for our work. I think the more you involve yourself with other people that do what you do, you'll become much more inspired and you might also lose the feeling of needing to be a perfectionist. Do you feel there is something out there that is calling you to commit to it?


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## impressions (Jan 13, 2013)

guys, i think your Empathy might be overflowing right now because we've all been there. but who are we to really judge and know what is best for someone we don't actually know?

mike mangini( dream theater's drummer) talks about this point exactly in
9:50-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpazIte4 ... age#t=590s

back to Dan-jay-perhaps his process of being a better musician is to quit and have that break in life so he can figure out himself that that's his main passion? who are we to know?
besides, not everyone can make money out of their hobby! there's a certain amount of knowledge, of practice and coordination, of inspiration, of periods in life that makes you play/compose better.
i have students with tons of passion but very bad timing/rhythmic feel or melody identifications, and some with %1 of their passion and no problems in rhythm or melody. guess who's more progressing? 
I'm pretty sure the more passionate have more fun making the music-but can they make money out of it? I don't know. it's for them to walk the road, and find out themselves.

Clint eastwood, if you've ever read about his career, had terrible success in his first 10-15 years. but he kept on. part of the being successful is not to quit, or knowing when to quit. no one can know when is that time better than the person himself.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 13, 2013)

impressions @ Sun Jan 13 said:


> guys, i think your Empathy might be overflowing right now because we've all been there. but who are we to really judge and know what is best for someone we don't actually know?



I know, I know. I think there's been heaps of good advice and ideas on this thread. Most - including my own - presume that carrying on is the right thing to do, cos clearly Dan has talent. But there is no right and wrong here of course.


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## Goran (Jan 13, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jan 12 said:


> Goran @ Sat Jan 12 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jan 10 said:
> ...



Don't know, I was prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt... but who knows, perhaps I was wrong :twisted:


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## Dan Mott (Jan 13, 2013)

Just want to say, thanks again for all the support.

Really really appreciate it!


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## Marius Masalar (Jan 13, 2013)

Dan,

Without needlessly echoing what others have said, have you ever considered using Reason? The fact that it's so wonderfully self-contained and modular makes for an intensely creative workspace — at least that's what I've found.

Whenever I feel like I need to pare down the bouquet of plugins and just zero back in on the music, I find myself drawn back to Reason to explore a bit. Might be worth a shot after you've taken some time to recover and reflect.


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## dgburns (Jan 13, 2013)

Goran @ Sat Jan 12 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed, I don't mean to attack anyone here and so I hope no one takes this personally.
> ...



the year is still young my friend! :D


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## toomanynotes (Jan 13, 2013)

might be the worst decision you make...but might be the best!!!

But making a public announcement of it tells me your heart is still very much in the music!!


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## NYC Composer (Jan 13, 2013)

I'm sure you'll make the decision that works best for you , Dan, and good luck whatever you decide.

Meanwhile, I am proud to be a member of this community, which has, I feel, really shown its best side in this thread.


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## Arbee (Jan 13, 2013)

I totally walked away from music 18 years ago to be a business software developer. Best decision I ever made - zero regrets, exactly the right thing for me at the time. I easily transferred my passion from music to software development and later to management.

Last year I started putting together a home music studio and currently have inspiration, excitement and passion overflowing again (although the final result is still a way off due to the steep learning curve). Best decision I ever made.....

Very little in this life is right or wrong, it is simply about choices, and every choice we make has benefits and has costs. And, in most cases, you can change your mind later, what's the worst that can happen?

.


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## vlado hudec (Jan 14, 2013)

Haven't read all of the posts, but :

you are 22, when I was 22, I only bought my first PC and known NOTHING about composing music, I played only guitar around 6 years. So you have A LOT of time to improve your skills as a composer. 

Many times I am frustrated and have doubts about myself, when I listen music of some other great composers, but on the other hand it hype me up to work and try to be better.

If I am frustrated, I give myself a rest from composing (couple of days, maybe a week) and do anything else, which I like (sports, watching movies, playing games etc) After that, I am hungry for composing

Listen your older or very first compositions and compare with recent. I bet, you will hear an improvement (compositionaly,sonically). It means, you improved your skills as a composer, maybe you would like to improve faster (everybody want it , but it needs some time to be a good composer, guitarist, football player, whatever...

I've never studied other composer's compositions, because I am not fimiliar with notes (it's a shame, I know , but when I started, I remember, I tried to mockup my favourites pieces, like Dances with Wolves - Two socks theme etc, to see, which instruments are playing and WHAT they playing and learned a lot this way.

So my advice is, don't sell your gear, maybe give yourself some rest and then start with a little goal and continue step by step and I bet you will improve your skills !

V


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## choc0thrax (Jan 14, 2013)

When I was 22 I spent 14 hours a day playing Age of Empires online and convinced a single mother of three to show me her boobs and C-section scar over a webcam. It was a year I can only describe as 'epic'. Strangely, those are the only two things I remember from that year.

I think the moral of the story is you have time to burn. Do whatever you want until probably age 26, then you better have a plan or you're fucked.


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## Dan Mott (Jan 14, 2013)

choc0thrax @ Mon Jan 14 said:


> When I was 22 I spent 14 hours a day playing Age of Empires online and convinced a single mother of three to show me her boobs and C-section scar over a webcam. It was a year I can only describe as 'epic'. Strangely, those are the only two things I remember from that year.
> 
> I think the moral of the story is you have time to burn. Do whatever you want until probably age 26, then you better have a plan or you're fucked.




*When I was 22 I spent 14 hours a day playing Age of Empires online*

I still do 


*Do whatever you want until probably age 26, then you better have a plan or you're fucked*


God lord............ you just scared the shit out of me. I turn 23 this year, so I have 3 years. ~o)


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## Ganvai (Jan 14, 2013)

Man, I'm 27.

To be honest, Age Of Empire changed to Assassins Creed, but a plan? A real plan? A plan like: I know where I go?

Oh shit, have to think a moment about my Life :D

PS: The good thing to mention: I don't have to use the internet to see some naked boobs :mrgreen:


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## Kejero (Jan 14, 2013)

choc0thrax @ Mon Jan 14 said:


> Do whatever you want until probably age 26, then you better have a plan or you're fucked.



Oh come on. Consider that a person's productive life starts around 20, and runs until age 60 or 65... That means at age 26 you still have roughly 85% of your productive life in front of you. 

It's never too late to find or reinvent yourself.


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## Tatu (Jan 14, 2013)

Ganvai @ Mon Jan 14 said:


> Man, I'm 27.
> 
> To be honest, Age Of Empire changed to Assassins Creed, but a plan? A real plan? A plan like: I know where I go?
> 
> ...



I'm 29 and currently hooked on DayZ.. Goddamit I guess most of us are already doomed. Maybe we should all quit?

I've also considered the possibility to trying to get into this "Library Music" -thing, but I hate my work, so maybe in ten years or so.. :D


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## Dan Mott (Jan 14, 2013)

Tatu @ Tue Jan 15 said:


> Ganvai @ Mon Jan 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Man, I'm 27.
> ...



Love DayZ!

Looking forward to the standalone version, coming out probably March.


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## Alex Cuervo (Jan 14, 2013)

I'm about to turn 42, and I still spend a great deal of time exploring the world of Skyrim (2nd playthrough, DLC run). You don't have to outgrow having fun.

Dan - I've been playing in bands for a long long time and only just started studying theory/production/piano a couple years ago - and I must say composing in the box is a completely different beast and can be maddeningly frustrating sometimes. It's a combination of having too many options, but also the fact that you're working within this representational conceptual process. I mean, you're typing, clicking or playing in notes with your hands - but it lacks something that you can only get from playing a real acoustic piano or a real guitar or horn or whatever. The satisfaction you get from stubbornly trying trying trying to make something musical happen on these things - and the moment it clicks and happens is just magical.

I guess my advice is, maybe you just need a break from the DAW and just get your hands dirty playing some real instruments that you don't already know how to play. Or get a real analog synth and learn how to dial in sounds on that - then join (or form) a local band of people your own age. You're young - go have fun!


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## Dan Mott (Jan 14, 2013)

Alex Cuervo @ Tue Jan 15 said:


> I'm about to turn 42, and I still spend a great deal of time exploring the world of Skyrim (2nd playthrough, DLC run). You don't have to outgrow having fun.
> 
> Dan - I've been playing in bands for a long long time and only just started studying theory/production/piano a couple years ago - and I must say composing in the box is a completely different beast and can be maddeningly frustrating sometimes. It's a combination of having too many options, but also the fact that you're working within this representational conceptual process. I mean, you're typing, clicking or playing in notes with your hands - but it lacks something that you can only get from playing a real acoustic piano or a real guitar or horn or whatever. The satisfaction you get from stubbornly trying trying trying to make something musical happen on these things - and the moment it clicks and happens is just magical.
> 
> I guess my advice is, maybe you just need a break from the DAW and just get your hands dirty playing some real instruments that you don't already know how to play. Or get a real analog synth and learn how to dial in sounds on that - then join (or form) a local band of people your own age. You're young - go have fun!




Very true.

I'm at a point where I'm pretty sick of samples. I sometimes go over to my friend's house and play his nice grand piano and it's a real joy to play a real instrument for once. No worrying about a certain velocity layer sounding off, or a round robin sounding completely different to the other round robins, as well as, you can get your performance to be RIGHT, instead of dealing with what samples you have and going around making adjustments for them. Samples will never replace the real thing.


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## Tatu (Jan 14, 2013)

One way to stop worrying about producing your music is to forget it and get a notation software bundled with mediocre samples (as they usually do). I use Notion 4 and with that I can write/"produce" stuff that I could never imagine nailing with Logic Pro and all my sample libraries and MIDI-know-how.

The other wonderful thing is to take on to the abstract challenge of doing it old school: with pen and paper (and a piano). That's the most satisfying way for me to work; I can hear all that musical glory in my head, only occasionally wondering how I'll never be able to mock that up.

I love Skyrim too.. maybe this thread will turn in to a collective realization on how so many of us "waste" our time playing games. o-[][]-o


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## dcoscina (Jan 14, 2013)

I know I don't have the time I used to dedicate to music but I still chip away at some pieces. I couldn't fathom giving up music so I will also add a proverbial "stick with it" even if it's minimal. To me music is the reason I wake up in the morning. Even if it's just taking a break from composing and just listening or studying scores, it keeps my spirits up. 

Hope you have a change of mind on this Dan.


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## dcoscina (Jan 14, 2013)

Tatu @ Mon Jan 14 said:


> One way to stop worrying about producing your music is to forget it and get a notation software bundled with mediocre samples (as they usually do). I use Notion 4 and with that I can write/"produce" stuff that I could never imagine nailing with Logic Pro and all my sample libraries and MIDI-know-how.



I couldn't agree more. I have found myself more productive with Notion for iPad or using Sibelius than muddling through DAWs these days. Yes, the sounds aren't as realistic but the interface forces one to deal strictly in the world of melody, harmonic, orchestration, and rhythm. Sometimes it's a nice change from all the production related minutia.


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## dedersen (Jan 14, 2013)

Absolutely agree on the idea of ditching the complicated DAW and going with pure notation - be that pen and paper at the piano or a software solution - from time to time. It can feel extremely liberating. Especially if you, Dan, often find yourself spending too much time fiddling with details of the mock-up process. That can really suck you out of a creative vibe.


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## choc0thrax (Jan 14, 2013)

Dan-Jay @ Mon Jan 14 said:


> choc0thrax @ Mon Jan 14 said:
> 
> 
> > When I was 22 I spent 14 hours a day playing Age of Empires online and convinced a single mother of three to show me her boobs and C-section scar over a webcam. It was a year I can only describe as 'epic'. Strangely, those are the only two things I remember from that year.
> ...



Really? But you don't mean the original '97 game, right? I was an elite player. Probably top 10 in the world at Choson.  

I probably posted it before but in honor of my gaming days I present to you my old desk: http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/535/1000114v.jpg

The best part about my setup was the fact that ants were living in my midi keyboard ever since I spilled coke in the keys.


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## choc0thrax (Jan 14, 2013)

Kejero @ Mon Jan 14 said:


> choc0thrax @ Mon Jan 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Do whatever you want until probably age 26, then you better have a plan or you're fucked.
> ...



I don't think many people are that productive in their 60s. Somewhere in your 40s you settle into a routine and realize just how average you are - that the crushing weight of the world will never allow you to rise to the heights your once young heart desired.

The 60s are more about trying to stay up late enough to watch Leno and visiting friends in the hospital.


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## Dan Mott (Jan 15, 2013)

choc0thrax @ Tue Jan 15 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Mon Jan 14 said:
> 
> 
> > choc0thrax @ Mon Jan 14 said:
> ...



Bahaha. Nice desk man!

And yes, I do mean the 97 game. I play Age of Empires 2 expansion. However, I think the 2nd one came out in 98, not sure, but I have been playing it since forever. I suck at it by the way 

I am now going to start playing Empire Earth.


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## danielcartisano (Jan 15, 2013)

I bought Dan-Jays Adam A5's, and they're sitting on my desk doing nothing because I've been playing Skyrim the past two evenings...





(But really, I'm waiting for my TRS-XLR cables to arrive.)


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## Rctec (Jan 15, 2013)

When I was 21, I was part of a band that had a number one song. The next ten years where hell...
Here are some links that could be useful:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g74DiyzadXI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... Y4-RMB0YY#!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9g3Q-qvtss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siu6JYqOZ0g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt5_TB3mB2U
http://www.ted.com/talks/elizabeth_gilbert_on_genius.html (http://www.ted.com/talks/elizabeth_gilb ... enius.html)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... dBJ1X33rXM

...This should keep you lot busy!


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## robteehan (Jan 15, 2013)

I thought about typing some encouraging words here.

But the truth of the matter is, success in this business only comes to the people who are willing to go through hell to get it. That includes the constant feeling of inadequacy when the music you make doesn't match what's in your head. (guess what, it never QUITE will.) It also includes years of training in service of the craft. And being on a constant journey of self-discovery and re-invention. 

If you're really feeling like you don't want to go through the hard work, maybe the choice to be a composer is not a decision you made deep down in your soul. I've seen people that are half-assed into the business hang on because they were afraid to quit. Many are anxious and depressed and get worse every year. 

If you just want life to be easier, well, good luck, that's not how it works when you're an artist. Either choose to have faith in your success and just get your ass in gear - or figure out what you REALLY want to do, and give it 100%.


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## choc0thrax (Jan 15, 2013)

Dan-Jay @ Tue Jan 15 said:


> choc0thrax @ Tue Jan 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Dan-Jay @ Mon Jan 14 said:
> ...



Heh, I vaguely remember hearing about Empire Earth long, long ago. I think a lot of AoE players went there whereas my friends and I moved on to CS 1.6, then WC 3, then Halo, then WoW, then CoD. Sadly, I have no time for games at all these days. :cry: 

BTW all this video game talk was not me going offtopic but geniusly segueing to my recommendation that people watch last year's Indie Game: The Movie. It is inspiring to watch what these guys go through to chase their dream. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K06j5Wo9oBY


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## Dan Mott (Jan 15, 2013)

Yes, it is true that being a musician is hard work and it's not easy. I know this.

I do think there is a difference between busting your ass to create and going through that shit, then actually not enjoying it at all. I enjoy some parts of music, and others not. I think one of the hardest things about composing, is trying to convey the exact emotion that you feel. Perhaps writing to picture is different because you can see what's going on and hear people talking, ect, as well as the director telling you want they want. 

I have wrote for one film. I think I did a decent job for my first try, but I don't think writing to picture is what I really would want out of music. I always imagined my self performing in front of people and just sharing my music any way I can. Probably nothing more satisfying in this world than being able to replicate an emotion you have inside you through music and showing someone els, but over the years the enjoyment has slowly built up.

Thanks for all the links guys. I shall have a good watch.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 15, 2013)

Rctec @ 15/1/2013 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... dBJ1X33rXM



The videos are all really great, so useful, but this one (Anthony Griffith), Hans, is extraordinary!


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## Kejero (Jan 15, 2013)

choc0thrax @ Tue Jan 15 said:


> I don't think many people are that productive in their 60s. Somewhere in your 40s you settle into a routine and realize just how average you are - that the crushing weight of the world will never allow you to rise to the heights your once young heart desired.



Most people will agree with you, and many people quickly settle for average and routine, but that doesn't make it less bullshit  Age is a popular but poor excuse to settle for anything, unless you want to walk the walk that's statistically expected of you. 
It probably makes me sound like Splinter, but seriously: routine is the root of a coward's disillusions, nothing more.


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## Valérie_D (Jan 15, 2013)

Thank You for the Anthony Griffith video, amazing story, truly inspiring!


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## Arbee (Jan 15, 2013)

choc0thrax @ Tue Jan 15 said:


> I don't think many people are that productive in their 60s. Somewhere in your 40s you settle into a routine and realize just how average you are - that the crushing weight of the world will never allow you to rise to the heights your once young heart desired.
> 
> The 60s are more about trying to stay up late enough to watch Leno and visiting friends in the hospital.


As you approach 60 you may be surprised :lol: 

.


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## PMortise (Jan 16, 2013)

I consider myself a perennial neophyte, so I just usually wallflower the threads and glean what I can after the dust settles. Of all the great musical, technical and business contributions given by members of this forum I had to take the opportunity to thank everyone for the support and advice in this one, and the OP for starting it.

I especially appreciated these videos:


Alex Cuervo @ Tue Jan 08 said:


> Words of wisdomhttp://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbC4gqZGPSY (: Ira Glass on the Creative Process)


and:


Rctec @ Tue Jan 15 said:


> When I was 21, I was part of a band that had a number one song. The next ten years where hell...
> Here are some links that could be useful:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g74DiyzadXI
> ...


There was a quote above the blackboard in my middle-school classroom that read:
_"He who works with his hands is a laborer.
He who works with his hands and his head is a craftsman.
He who works with his hands and his head and his heart is an artist."_

I believe that the seeds of great music form in the part of you where threads like this one attempt to reach, and is part of what keeps me a member of this forum.

Ok, enough kum ba ya...back to work I go! :lol:


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## Darthmorphling (Jan 16, 2013)

Rctec @ Tue Jan 15 said:


> When I was 21, I was part of a band that had a number one song. The next ten years where hell...



Kind of a funny story, for me anyway. I hope it won't offend you.

We listen to a lot of classical music in my classroom, but the students can earn listening to film music. They voted to listen to the 2nd Pirates movie. 

I mentioned that the guy who wrote the music was also in the first video on MTV. They wanted to see it. After hearing a little bit of it, one student simply said, "He got much better."

Hope you find the humor there!

Don


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## Martin Brannigan (Jan 19, 2013)

Rctec @ Tue Jan 15 said:


> When I was 21, I was part of a band that had a number one song. The next ten years where hell...
> Here are some links that could be useful:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g74DiyzadXI
> ...



Thank you so much for these links, Hans, I have just spent a wonderful Saturday morning watching all of them.

Very inspirational, and the Anthony Griffith story just reduced me to tears. Many thanks

Martin


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## dgburns (Jan 19, 2013)

Itay Talgam +1


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## Dan Mott (Jan 25, 2013)

Just letting you guys know. I have taken a break.

I have disconnected all my gear and put it away. Changed my room too. Made it a bit more room friendly because before it wasn't.

I think it's great so far. Haven't even been on my music computer and I have thought about other things. It's a bit refreshing.

Obviously I still come here. This place always is a good read.

Thanks!


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## Antilope (Jan 30, 2013)

Well nobody said its going to be easy...


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## Darthmorphling (Jan 30, 2013)

Dan-Jay @ Fri Jan 25 said:


> Just letting you guys know. I have taken a break.
> 
> I have disconnected all my gear and put it away. Changed my room too. Made it a bit more room friendly because before it wasn't.
> 
> ...



I had this grand plan to devote the first week of my winter break to creating music. My kids were not going to start theirs until a week after mine, so everything was perfect. However, my creativity/desire just wasn't there.

I became quite descouraged during that time, but as I watching some youtube videos, I came across some drawing videos. I got sucked in to drawing/digital painting, as that has always interested me as well.

I started getting the itch to create music again. As I am drawing I usually starting thinking of some sort of melody or rhythmic pattern and then I make sure to get it recorded. 

I guess what I am trying to say is find another creative outlet, as I am sure it will renew your interest in music.

Also, the devs for Reaper have implemented a lot of new midi features that have made its midi implementation a lot better. I know that was one of your gripes with the program.

Don


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## Vartio (Feb 1, 2013)

@Rctec
thanks... really great bits there.


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## Markus S (Feb 9, 2013)

Didn't read all of the posts. Actually, but I still think I am saying something that not many have said : Yes, stop music.

What point is there to tell someone to continue who feels it is pointless? Is it forbidden to stop music? Is music such a high art for the well being of humanity and the universe that the simply idea of quitting is so horrible that everyone has to jump in and make the OP change his mind?

I don't think it is so hard to respect that choice and let someone move on. Yes, stop music, if this is how you feel, do not feel obliged to pursue a dream or an ideal other seem to carry for you. Live your own life, get rid of your music stuff. If you change you mind later, maybe start simple from scratch.


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## midphase (Feb 9, 2013)

I agree with Markus, if the OP is having second thoughts now (at the beginning of his career), imagine after 20 years of painful rejections and financial insecurity.


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## Audun Jemtland (Feb 26, 2013)

Dan-Jay: I feel you. It sounds like you bought the equipment and libraries before you actually started using what you had. Maybe have a little urge to always buy the latest and greatest? (I'm guilty of that) personally I've been really spoiled,procrastinating and "lazy"/perfectionist and gotten more gears and stuff then getting into anything special. I remember getting Harry Gregsons' microsoft intelli mouse (it lit really cool red light) The one he has in that video when he talks about metal gear solid. And I also built Hans Zimmer's 2 story studio table just to be like him Just for the aesthetics and coolness (haha) For me it was and admittedly still is a thing about CONFIDENCE. It always comes back to that. I've actually always been abit ashamed to admit this. 

I have some really decent melodies, but that's it. It's almost as if It just comes to me, and now I have no where to go with it, without forcing it...It's not playful and fun.
I've been taught a little about chords and the relations between them.And it's abit 'aha' about it all. Discovering the canvas I use unconciously but it gets bigger and broader and now I see the colors more clearly and the creativity can flow more. I can now see the tools more and what I can choose from. Leaning abit on the educational side if you'd like and not purely depend on 100% ears and talent.
I would say do what you love, no matter what.And do it despite it might not make you money. As long as you can have a creative outlet.

In my case I've always played 1hour everyday on my Keyboard for 10 years.The keyboard can store 60 Midi songs on a floppy disk. I've felt shame since I'm not being true to myself and making use of the libraries I have and using the pc, but my ears are so good and I hear flaws and weaknesses instead of strengths. I always come back to that very simple keyboard.It's just record and play,and oddly enough it's more responsive than todays samples only with it's fake 3 velocity layers but neighboor borrowing. It's easier to press record on my floppy disk keyboard and play by ear.(instant keyboard response aswell,no delay) Even if it's little snippets of 10seconds, it's still ideas and diaries of the day as mentioned. And it's the most unique thing to be proud of and to learn from. I've now made over 1800 snippets in 10 years. This is a Yamaha Psr 550 with a floppy disk drive;P And I use it till this day. 

I remembered always telling myself "I want Hans Zimmer sounds". As I made more songs, more snippets, the fairly cheap sound coming from the keyboard started sounding better! Because I made them sound better. I improved...it got more and more fun. Years and years later, this old "kids keyboard" sound way better than it did 10 years ago!
(I "outdid" the keyboard, I made use of what I had, and still are.)

Strange thing is people become lazy out of too luxurious circumstances. And also that crap someone here posted with chips and candy on their desk, depletes your body of nutritional value and drags down your mentality.So If you're a junk fooder (as many young people are) Then it might be a contributing factor. One note about that is myself. Had chronic fatigue for 5 years now... And that is primarily the confidence and mental pull down for me. It's not suprising so many young bedroom composers haven't yet "found themselves".

One interesting note aswell for me is that my main "heroes" Zimmer and Williams, became "less impressive" as I progressed and became better and better. Becoming my own "maestro" getting my own sound,getting my own experience. I'm no longer depentant to look to others for acceptance or value, if that makes sense? Going from a procrastinator and observant of others, to proactivator and being observed.
From selfaware and critical to selfconfident and more reasonable. I still have a devil on my shoulder, but in my case the devil is the good ears that has good taste and won't let s*it go so easily through;D


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## Dan Mott (Feb 26, 2013)

Hello Audon

Thanks for the kind response.

Just to note, I am actually the opposite. I am not really the type of guy who wants the latest gear, ect. I actually have great tools and I felt I didn't need anything else.

I actually do not have many libraries, compared to some of the composers on here. You look at my HD, I'm sure I'd amaze people on how little I have :D, but it's all I need.

I also don't want to be like anyone else. I know that if I wanted to be, it just wouldn't work out because it's not me.

I am one of those people who don't know what they want.

I never mentioned that 50 percent of the devil on my shoulder comes from room acoustics. My room sounds pretty bad, even for just general listening. I do not enjoy my favourite songs in here which is heartbreaking. I have no bass in here and my speakers sound like a shoebox. I went and studied acoustics and I felt like it was a mistake because it made me more aware of what I'm not hearing. So I made my own acoustic panels and spoke with consultants. My panels didn't really tame that shoebox sound, nor has brought back any bass. I would pretty much have to cover my whole room which is not possible.

However, I get annoyed at my self because how can that be an excuse? It makes a bit of sense, considering if you don't enjoy the sound you are getting out of your speakers, even for generally listening, how can you enjoy music? However, there are composers producing records just fine in there untreated studios, so I kind of feel guilty or stupid because maybe that's not a valid excuse.

The other 50 is self doubt. I have alot of it. No drive either. The people who are commited and have that drive get places or at least produce something, so my attitude really has to change.

Anyway. Thanks


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 26, 2013)

Don't know if this applies to you Dan, but I liked it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbC4gqZGPSY&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbC4gqZG ... r_embedded)


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## Dan Mott (Apr 30, 2013)

Hello people

Back here again.

So It's been a while since I posted this and I have come to a conclusion as to what I want.

I was going through some music the other day and I found some tracks that I made and they pretty much surprised me at how musical I am and how stupid it would be to quit. I think that I do have some ability, whatever that may be. I do have a good ear too. The tracks I heard puzzled me because I always wonder what on earth I was thinking to come up with the stuff I did a long time ago. 

I only questioned my self once, where I said to my self - "Can people ever lose their ability to be creative"? Is that even possible?

Music Is definitely a hobby for me, but a really passionate hobby. All I want to do is discuss music/sample libraries/instruments with people and I really enjoy that. I also love seeing the progression of samples and sound.

If I never found those tracks, I probably would have took up another hobby, but those tracks really inspired me and helped me gain confidence in my self. Though the tracks are quite old and I was much younger, I still saw some ability in me.

Hopefully this year I can get some tracks done and just forget about everything else and just write.

Thanks!


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## Mike Marino (Apr 30, 2013)

Welcome back to the show


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## Dan Mott (Apr 30, 2013)

Mike Marino @ Wed May 01 said:


> Welcome back to the show



Cheers Brother 8)


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## Walid F. (May 1, 2013)

good revelation! wishing you best of luck man!!


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## chimuelo (May 1, 2013)

Great news.
Sounds like you got laid along the way....


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## Jimbo 88 (May 1, 2013)

Dan-Jay @ Tue Apr 30 said:


> Hello people
> 
> Back here again.
> 
> ...




Listen, music is NOT about ability. Music is about passion. How hard do you want to work at it? How far do you want to go?

Also You always need to put some distance in between judging your music (same with mixes). You can listen to something and go "wow!! that is really really good" or "Wow! that is terrible, what was I thinking." But in the heat of the battle, it is really hard to be objective.

Welcome back and good luck!


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## Sasje (May 4, 2013)

I've done something quite similar when I was 18. Now I regret it years later, all that time was wasted to trivial things (like watching sitcoms). In those years I've could have mastered the Piano, some woodwinds and have a huge foundation. All I thought was: I am not good enough and I wasn't committed enough to put in tons of work and practice. I didn't have the patience then. Now I really regret quitting then. But I must say that 10 years later I dusted off my keyboard and guitar and started from scratch. I'm an amateur again, but I love doing it. So you never know how it will go in the future... making music is like a virus, it always comes back at you at some point in life. Inspiration also comes and goes. But now I accept that and don't force myself anymore.

I wish you good luck and do what your heart tells you to... that's the most important.


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## gsgard (Aug 12, 2013)

You just need to smoke some weed then everything will sound perfect again.


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