# Doepfer LMK4+ 88 or Arturia KeyLab 88 MkII?



## MadLad (Jan 23, 2022)

Hey fellow composers,

I'm in the midst of building myself a nice homestudio to further my foothold in the professional world of video game and maybe movie soundtracks with VST libraries, so I'm looking for advice here.

Right now, I am looking for a midi controller. I saw in a video that quite a few people recommend the Doepfer LMK4+ 88 but it costs over 500€ more than the Arturia KeyLab 88 MKII which also has awesome reviews and which looks like it would be much more useful for me because of the many integrated sliders, wheels and percussion pads.

Can anyone tell me what the reason would be to go for the 1500€ Doepfer instead of the 900€ Arturia Keylab? Reviews say, they both have really good and robust keys, they play very well etc. I definitely tend to the Arturia Keylab because of the USB over Midi connection (you just need to plug it in your computer no extra power needed), the lighter build and the many sliders and knobs and an included sample library. Is there a reason I should buy the Doepfer instead?

Thanks in advance!

P.S. I'm gonna use it with Dorico and Reaper if that's relevant.


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## Rob Elliott (Jan 24, 2022)

I am also interested in this answer. The Komplete Kontrol s88 just has the worse keybed EVER (clickety loud mess.)


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## studioj (Jan 24, 2022)

The KeyLab is great for the price, very full featured. But the action is a bit tough...not the best feeling key bed, my only complaint about it really. The doepfer key beds are superior ... I might recommend you check out the LMK2+, that is what I use on my main rig. I bought the Arturia Keylab for a different room and I'm happy with the purchase but again the action is my only complaint.


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## samphony (Jan 24, 2022)

I have my lmk 4+ over 12 years now. I Chose the lmk only because I wanted to build it into my desk. I like its feel as it is not to heavy. All spare parts can be reordered through Doepfer which is nice too. 

Another recommendation is the Roland A-88 mkII


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## MadLad (Jan 24, 2022)

studioj said:


> The KeyLab is great for the price, very full featured. But the action is a bit tough...not the best feeling key bed, my only complaint about it really. The doepfer key beds are superior ... I might recommend you check out the LMK2+, that is what I use on my main rig. I bought the Arturia Keylab for a different room and I'm happy with the purchase but again the action is my only complaint.


What do you mean by "tough"? Does it not play well? Because most of the reviews I've found say it's actually really good. 

And what is the difference between the LMK2+ and LMK4+?


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## samphony (Jan 24, 2022)

Doepfer lmk 4+ is based around the Fatar TP/40GH. You can look up which other manufacturers use that keybed. 

Doepfer also sells all keyboards without the casing. There is also the Doepfer PK-88 which has no controller ie Modwheel etc.


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## MadLad (Jan 24, 2022)

samphony said:


> Doepfer lmk 4+ is based around the Fatar TP/40GH. You can look up which other manufacturers use that keybed.
> 
> Doepfer also sells all keyboards without the casing. There is also the Doepfer PK-88 which has no controller ie Modwheel etc.


Yeah, I've seen the PK-88 and I have the Korg Nano Kontrol 2. So, apart from the missing controllers it's the same as the IMK4+?


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## muddyblue (Jan 24, 2022)

Rob Elliott said:


> I am also interested in this answer. The Komplete Kontrol s88 just has the worse keybed EVER (clickety loud mess.)


Yes i can confirm this! It's absolute horror at the moment.


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## samphony (Jan 24, 2022)

MadLad said:


> Yeah, I've seen the PK-88 and I have the Korg Nano Kontrol 2. So, apart from the missing controllers it's the same as the IMK4+?


Yes it’s the same TP/40GH


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## MadLad (Jan 24, 2022)

samphony said:


> Yes it’s the same TP/40GH


It's also only 1000€. I might go for that one, since I already have the Korg NanoKontrol 2. Thanks!


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## studioj (Jan 24, 2022)

MadLad said:


> What do you mean by "tough"? Does it not play well? Because most of the reviews I've found say it's actually really good.
> 
> And what is the difference between the LMK2+ and LMK4+?


it's just a little heavier than other weighted key beds IMO. It doesn't feel 'great' to me, but its also not a mess either, just a slight preference of other piano action key beds in comparison.


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## studioj (Jan 24, 2022)

I think the only difference between the two LMK's is the controller functionality on the left panel. I guess its possible they ship with different stock key beds as well but I'm not sure. I only have experience with the LMK2+ which I've had for over 10 years.


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## dcoscina (Jan 24, 2022)

I'm curious about Doepfer as well. I played one once at a Long &McQuade but they are elusive up here in Canada. My PC3x still won't die and has an ideal weight for both piano parts and orchestral stuff so I'm in no rush to replace. 

The S88mk2 and Keylab 88 mk2 both share the same keybed. I find the Arturia a little heavier for whatever reason. Neither impresses me too much. The Roland A88mk2 changed from their Ivory G action to the PHA4 which is ok but not as nice. Key noise is paramount (in that it should not exist) for a controller. To be honest, the Yamaha CP88 has a terrific keyboard. Not too heavy but meaty enough for hard playing. Aside from a lack of controllers, it would be my choice as the next master controller for key feel alone. Plus it has some amazing built-in sounds.


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## JohnG (Jan 24, 2022)

I think everyone is looking for the “perfect” keyboard. I’ve been using a Doepfer LMK 4+ for a few years and it is fine; much better than most of the ones I tried in stores.

My only piece of advice is — try it yourself. Even among the Doepfers I tried, the one I have has a noticeably more “even” keybed.

So while of course it’s a good idea to get advice, I still wouldn’t recommend anything you don’t try first-hand. Even though that’s hard when you live away from a big city, it’s still the best recommendation I have.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jan 24, 2022)

I chose the LMK2+ because I could build it into the desk but I have owned the S88 and tried the Arturia, StudioLogic, etc. I play my grand piano at home when I’m not at my DAW, for context. So far, the LMK2+ is the best controller I’ve played outside of my old Yamaha digital piano or a Kawai digital piano (but those aren’t as convenient as MIDI controllers).


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## samphony (Jan 24, 2022)

It’s also easy to maintain. The complete replacement rubber strips for the keybed only cost about 39€ and takes 20min.


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## MadLad (Jan 24, 2022)

JohnG said:


> I think everyone is looking for the “perfect” keyboard. I’ve been using a Doepfer LMK 4+ for a few years and it is fine; much better than most of the ones I tried in stores.
> 
> My only piece of advice is — try it yourself. Even among the Doepfers I tried, the one I have has a noticeably more “even” keybed.
> 
> So while of course it’s a good idea to get advice, I still wouldn’t recommend anything you don’t try first-hand. Even though that’s hard when you live away from a big city, it’s still the best recommendation I have.


Yes, that's my problem. Even in the city they don't have it in stock, so I can't try it out.


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## Rob Elliott (Jan 24, 2022)

MadLad said:


> Yes, that's my problem. Even in the city they don't have it in stock, so I can't try it out.


Same problem here. :(


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## Rob Elliott (Jan 24, 2022)

The problem I have (as mentioned above) is I brought an acoustic piano in the studio- ruined me for life on probably just about ANY controller - but especially this S88 mk2 (it's just a mess). Would owners of LMK4+ say that action is 'close' to a real (good quality) piano?


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## muk (Jan 24, 2022)

No. If a real, good quality piano, midi keyboards don't come close. The Fatar TP/40GH does a bit better than other midi keyboards. But it's still miles away. What you shoukd be looking at instead are digital pianos. They still don't replicate a real piano action. But they are much, much closer than the Doepfer's.


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## JohnG (Jan 24, 2022)

Rob Elliott said:


> Would owners of LMK4+ say that action is 'close' to a real (good quality) piano?


No, it's not. 

But I didn't want a true piano action. If you want that, I've read that keyboards marketed as "digital pianos" or otherwise tout piano emulation are going to be more likely to provide it.

I have a Steinway grand that sounds fantastic and is fun to play. However, its action would be very hard on the wrists and hands if used 14 hours a day for any serious length of time.

If I want to play or write on a real piano, I used the Steinway. As a midi controller, I'm pretty happy with the Doepfer, even though nothing is perfect.

Here are some things I DO like about it:

1. Keybed is ok, and you can adjust the relative sensitivity of the black and white keys.

2. Just enough sliders (two) and wheels (also two), plus a mod wheel and pitch bend wheel. That turns out to be exactly what I need.

3. It's pretty small, compared with some I looked at;

4. (Crucial) The Doepfer doesn't send any "ghost" midi to my computer. Some of the cheaper controllers have wonky wheels or joysticks that cause problems there.


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## samphony (Jan 24, 2022)

Rob Elliott said:


> The problem I have (as mentioned above) is I brought an acoustic piano in the studio- ruined me for life on probably just about ANY controller - but especially this S88 mk2 (it's just a mess). Would owners of LMK4+ say that action is 'close' to a real (good quality) piano?


In this case you might try the Roland A-88 mk2


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## PaulieDC (Jan 24, 2022)

muddyblue said:


> Yes i can confirm this! It's absolute horror at the moment.


I also see that mentioned a lot about the StudioLogic SL88 Studio (not Grand) which also uses the Fatar TP/100... you would think Fatar would get this figured out by now. There's a YouTube video where a guy pulls apart his keyboard and adds some sort of strip to fix the issue.

I believe the Doepfer LMK uses a similar version of the TP/40 that I have in my SL88 Grand, and so far after a year and a half it's been great. I think you'll be pleased with the Doepfer.

FWIW, TP/100 owners that don't mind cracking open the case may get good results from this:


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## MadLad (Jan 24, 2022)

Btw. to whoever owns an Arturia Keylab MKII:

Can you customize all the wheels and faders? For example, can I assign the two mod wheels to be CC1 and CC11 (the two CC lanes used in BBCSO for example)?


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## PaulieDC (Jan 24, 2022)

Rob Elliott said:


> Would owners of LMK4+ say that action is 'close' to a real (good quality) piano?


Speaking of the TP/40 in the SL88 which has the same hammer action as the LMK4, it's not going to have that undetectable real piano feel because it doesn't have escapement. But the TP/40 feels good and you get used to its feel which may not be that much of a drawback. I personally like not having escapement because I find the TP/40 "smooth" enough to play in legato lines as well, I thought I'd need a 49 for that but I don't. Best piano feel is the gigantic expensive Kawai VPC1, I don't think any controller under $2K has dethroned that yet for piano feel. Roland A88 MKII has weighted escapement but it's the same PHA-4 keybed as in the RD800 which our church has, and while it feels OK I find that keybed too bouncy for lack of a better term. That's playing it right next to the Yamaha C5 Grand and comparing the two. I prefer the TP/40 any day over that, but all subjective.

See if you can try the LMK somewhere, but that's a feat in itself. Sweetwater sells it and has a great return policy, lol.


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## PaulieDC (Jan 24, 2022)

muk said:


> ...They still don't replicate a real piano action. But they are much, much closer than the Doepfer's.


True but you're probably talking Yamaha N1X now, and that's got a pretty impressive price tag, lol.


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## muk (Jan 24, 2022)

PaulieDC said:


> True but you're probably talking Yamaha N1X now, and that's got a pretty impressive price tag, lol.


Not necessarily. The more expensive units often get closer to a real piano feeling. And yet, the ones in the price-range of the Doepfer still do a much better job at it than the Fatar TP/40GH. If your budget is limited to the price of a Doepfer, go play some digital pianos in that price region. Most of them will feel much closer to a real piano than the Doepfer's Fatar keybed.


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## Freudon33 (Jan 25, 2022)

MadLad said:


> Btw. to whoever owns an Arturia Keylab MKII:
> 
> Can you customize all the wheels and faders? For example, can I assign the two mod wheels to be CC1 and CC11 (the two CC lanes used in BBCSO for example)?


I don't have the BBCSO but many other bank Spitfire Audio but the Keylab MKII 88 allows you to assign all the midi cc we want.


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## Alex Fraser (Jan 25, 2022)

M Audio Keystation FTW. Light, cheap. Fill with sandwich crumbs then throw away.
Anyone?
I'll get my coat...


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## MadLad (Jan 25, 2022)

Freudon33 said:


> I don't have the BBCSO but many other bank Spitfire Audio but the Keylab MKII 88 allows you to assign all the midi cc we want.


That's good to hear. I really can't decide. The Arturia Keylab has all these faders and knobs and the percussion pad and it's lightweight, doesn't need an extra power supply and actually fits on my table.
From all the reviews I've read I gathered that the Keybed can be harder to play than regular midi controllers but I'm used to real pianos with heavier keybeds, so I'm pretty sure that wouldn't bother me that much.

I really think I should get the Keylab MKII 88 because it also works with Reaper out of the box.


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## Rob Elliott (Jan 25, 2022)

Sounds like the world of controllers is still a bit of a crap shoot for getting the 'perfect' action...so...has anyone taken the Komplete S88 mk2 apart and improved the 'rattles and clackety'? Videos out there?


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## Freudon33 (Jan 25, 2022)

the touch of the keylab MKII is very good for me even if I'm not a real pianist
I also have a Clavinova and in comparison the touch of the MKII
is also good quality
and it has a lot of easily programmable functions


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## Freudon33 (Jan 25, 2022)

And the Black Edition version is beautiful


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## muddyblue (Jan 25, 2022)

Rob Elliott said:


> Sounds like the world of controllers is still a bit of a crap shoot for getting the 'perfect' action...so...has anyone taken the Komplete S88 mk2 apart and improved the 'rattles and clackety'? Videos out there?


Yes that's true, I had 3 of them but because of the guarantee I had to send them back in and in the end I got my money back. In the meantime I had the Yamaha CP88 but some keys also started to spin...and high velocitys were not feasible for me, now I'm trying my luck with a Roland A88MK2 which I will get it this week.


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## muddyblue (Jan 25, 2022)

Freudon33 said:


> And the Black Edition version is beautiful


Yes beautiful, but also has got the Fatar TP/100 onboard ...


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## Rob Elliott (Jan 25, 2022)

muddyblue said:


> Yes that's true, I had 3 of them but because of the guarantee I had to send them back in and in the end I got my money back. In the meantime I had the Yamaha CP88 but some keys also started to spin...and high velocitys were not feasible for me, now I'm trying my luck with a Roland A88MK2 which I will get it this week.


Cool - let us know on the Roland A88MK2.


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## muddyblue (Jan 25, 2022)

Rob Elliott said:


> Cool - let us know on the Roland A88MK2.


Yes I do. The Roland didn't really appeal to me in the store, but somehow there aren't any alternatives anymore. I hope that something will come onto the market in the near future that will finally make us happier, I have some suggestions


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## cedricm (Jan 25, 2022)

You need to check if a software is given with the keyboard and what it can do.
Case in point : the SL Editor of the StudioLogic keyboards, which enables to configure velocity curves, adjust it to individual keys, white vs black keys adjustment and more. It completely changes the experience and it's really the first step recommended with the keyboard.


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## MadLad (Jan 25, 2022)

The more I read up on everything, the more this drives me crazy. If it's only about the key action (I have the Korg NanoKontrol2 for faders and CC automation) then I probably should get a stage piano with midi in/out as you've discussed here.

Does anyone have good recommendations for those? Something in the price range between 900-1200€ with a good keybed?


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## Zoot_Rollo (Jan 25, 2022)

I had an SL88 Studio - i couldn't stand the feel to the point I won't consider any Fatar designs.

I went with a Medeli K6 keybed - although, I have a hard time recommending this model due to its quirks and reliability - at least my experience.

Plays like a dream otherwise.


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## cuttime (Jan 25, 2022)

You may wish to consider the software suite that comes with the KL88 MKII. It ain't chopped liver, and the Piano V is very good IMHO, though maybe not in the Pianoteq class, but very tweakable. Arturia pushes out updates very frequently, and I've found their customer support exceptional.


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## pranic (Jan 25, 2022)

I have the MKII 66 Arturia and love it (for all the dials, and sliders for CC control) and can't speak to the weighted keys on the 88-key variant. If I want piano feel, I still use my Yamaha Motif XS8 for that piano-like feel. I'd not hesitate to recommend the Arturia Keylab line, though. It's really nice hardware.


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## jaketanner (Jan 25, 2022)

samphony said:


> Another recommendation is the Roland A-88 mkII


That's what I'm getting soon


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## MadLad (Jan 25, 2022)

pranic said:


> I have the MKII 66 Arturia and love it (for all the dials, and sliders for CC control) and can't speak to the weighted keys on the 88-key variant. If I want piano feel, I still use my Yamaha Motif XS8 for that piano-like feel. I'd not hesitate to recommend the Arturia Keylab line, though. It's really nice hardware.


I mean, if I use my sample libraries then expression and volume is controlled by the faders. I'd only need the weighted keys for everything velocity related, like pizzicati, staccati, percussive intruments and piano sounds, etc. I don't need something that's like a real piano but just gets the job done well.

It's hard to make a decision, maybe I'll still try to find a few digital pianos and masterkeyboards in stores to test them out.


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## jaketanner (Jan 25, 2022)

There really is no point in getting a controller that is close to a "piano action", unless piano VIs are your main concern...as long as the keybed feels good to you, and suits your needs...don't get caught up on the "piano like" keys. I honestly would not think to use an acoustic piano to play organ or do synth lines or percussion...it's always a give and take with MIDI controllers. My criteria for a weighted action is that it needs to be quiet...the Roland A88 MKII I think is as quiet as they come...plus I do like the action and it's good for many things. It has a good footprint (depth wise), it's flat on top for me to place my Monogram CC units...and minimal buttons.

EDIT: One thing I forgot to mention...overall, the controller needs to be inspirational to play. I'm a pianist, so it needs to feel like I'm playing effortlessly...not struggling or wishing I had better keys.


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## MadLad (Jan 25, 2022)

Yeah, I really wish I could get my hands on the Keylab MKII before buying it just to try out the key action. From all the reviews it seems like one half hates it, the other half likes it.


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## KEM (Jan 25, 2022)

Rob Elliott said:


> I am also interested in this answer. The Komplete Kontrol s88 just has the worse keybed EVER (clickety loud mess.)



Interesting to hear, I have the s88 and it doesn’t make any noise, at least no noise that’s noticeable enough for me to be able to call it an issue


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## muddyblue (Jan 26, 2022)

MadLad said:


> The more I read up on everything, the more this drives me crazy. If it's only about the key action (I have the Korg NanoKontrol2 for faders and CC automation) then I probably should get a stage piano with midi in/out as you've discussed here.
> 
> Does anyone have good recommendations for those? Something in the price range between 900-1200€ with a good keybed?


If you have enough space : Kawai VPC1....


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## muddyblue (Jan 26, 2022)

KEM said:


> Interesting to hear, I have the s88 and it doesn’t make any noise, at least no noise that’s noticeable enough for me to be able to call it an issue


Then you have a main prize with the part! Good luck continues!!


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## Rob Elliott (Jan 26, 2022)

KEM said:


> Interesting to hear, I have the s88 and it doesn’t make any noise, at least no noise that’s noticeable enough for me to be able to call it an issue


Consider yourself lucky.....for now. :( (mine has gotten worse the older it is.)


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## muddyblue (Jan 30, 2022)

Rob Elliott said:


> Cool - let us know on the Roland A88MK2.


So now he's finally here. No beauty but well proportioned. First I assigned some buttons and pads (Prgm & CC's), now it's starting to be fun and you have a lot more options.
I find the mechanics/keys a bit hard to get used to for me (pressure point further down, let go), at least the keys-sound is not as annoying as with the KK88MK2, all keys rattle the same, so to say. The velocity curve is very good (6 options) in my opinion. I miss a bit of aftertouch on synths and I can't get the joystick (Midi CC with Logic) to take over that at the moment. I'll keep it for now and have to get used to it and hope that the keys don't get louder after time


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## jononotbono (Jan 30, 2022)

MadLad said:


> Yeah, I really wish I could get my hands on the Keylab MKII before buying it just to try out the key action. From all the reviews it seems like one half hates it, the other half likes it.


You definitely want to try it first. Honestly, I couldn't bear to play it. I literally chose to use a Native Instruments M32 travel keyboard with micro keys instead of using the Keylab in the the 12 months I borrowed one. Each to their own though and good luck.


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## jblongz (Feb 5, 2022)

I own and think the key lab mk2 is great considering the many ports on the back for pedals and cv. I'm not a fan of their faders, rarely use them. Keys and build are solid. I had the NI KK 88, just didn't feel right for me, and control out side of their ecosystem left much to be desired.


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## colony nofi (Mar 17, 2022)

This thread is a big help. I have an A88mk1 that's just stopped turning on. Not the power supply - since it also doesn't work powered by usb. Sigh. More e waste - will find someone to look at it I guess, but for now I need an alternative.
A88 was actually an issue for me because it was too wide for my desk. They are VERY wide. If you get one (I think they are good value all round, even the mkii with the different keybed) just make sure your desk bay for the keyboard isn't only 140cm wide. There's quite a few that are only that wide... my work studio has a buso that they customised to be wider, and my home setup has a desk by audio housing (this one : https://gearspace.com/board/product...nces-compact-88-studio-desk.html#post15541044)

Anyways - I'll be buying quickly. No Studio logic in sydney at the moment (stock!). NI SL88 seems in stock. Arturia seems to have stock. Roland A88mkii might have stock but I'd love it to fit in the desk.... maybe I'll get a cheapy and wait (hahahahaha never wait for technology!)

Anyway - this thread helps wade through the weeds...


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## jaketanner (Mar 17, 2022)

colony nofi said:


> This thread is a big help. I have an A88mk1 that's just stopped turning on. Not the power supply - since it also doesn't work powered by usb. Sigh. More e waste - will find someone to look at it I guess, but for now I need an alternative.
> A88 was actually an issue for me because it was too wide for my desk. They are VERY wide. If you get one (I think they are good value all round, even the mkii with the different keybed) just make sure your desk bay for the keyboard isn't only 140cm wide. There's quite a few that are only that wide... my work studio has a buso that they customised to be wider, and my home setup has a desk by audio housing (this one : https://gearspace.com/board/product...nces-compact-88-studio-desk.html#post15541044)
> 
> Anyways - I'll be buying quickly. No Studio logic in sydney at the moment (stock!). NI SL88 seems in stock. Arturia seems to have stock. Roland A88mkii might have stock but I'd love it to fit in the desk.... maybe I'll get a cheapy and wait (hahahahaha never wait for technology!)
> ...


I just got an A88MKII. Love it so far. I got an adjustable desk and have the a88 slid under on a Z stand. But they are wide. Luckily my Monogram fits right on top. As well as my Akai LPK25


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## MadLad (Mar 17, 2022)

I got the M-Audio Hammer 88 pro and I'm loving it. All the knobs an faders work great and the keybed is the perfect compromise between the light piano action that some of the roland models have and the (too) heavy action the fatar keybeds have. I actually was able to try out a fatar TP40 keybed and tbh it almost felt as if there was something wrong with it. I've played quite a few real grand pianos in my life and none of them had keybeds this sluggish. I really don't like the heavy fatar keybeds. 

The M-Audio is not too light, not too heavy and it feels close to a real piano. The lower keys are even harder to press down than the higher keys, it feels really great. And you get a bunch of cool VST instruments with it and the remapping of the knobs faders and even drum pads is so easy and fast, I was able to completely tailor the Hammer 88 Pro to my needs for orchestral music production.


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## Guavadude (Mar 17, 2022)

Anyone tried the Korg D1? It has the RH3 keybed so hammer action from what I'm reading. No wheels but I can get around that. $699 

I've used a KX88 for twenty odd years and always thought it felt great but have struggled with it's velocity limits (15-120) and no velocity curves. I've borrowed a Yamaha S08 and am amazed at how much better the velocity response is from what I'm used to. I'm thinking I'll just use this until some midi 2.0 controllers come out because I really think/hope that will be a big change for the better.


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## colony nofi (Mar 18, 2022)

jaketanner said:


> I just got an A88MKII. Love it so far. I got an adjustable desk and have the a88 slid under on a Z stand. But they are wide. Luckily my Monogram fits right on top. As well as my Akai LPK25


I got the S88 mkii in desperation. There really wasn't much to choose from, and it had to be under 140cm. I miss the roland keybed. But it will get me thru this project, and then I can re-visit. These things don't tend to loose tonnes of value quickly. I'll treat the drop in value as rent


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## jaketanner (Mar 18, 2022)

colony nofi said:


> I got the S88 mkii in desperation. There really wasn't much to choose from, and it had to be under 140cm. I miss the roland keybed. But it will get me thru this project, and then I can re-visit. These things don't tend to loose tonnes of value quickly. I'll treat the drop in value as rent


My decision for the Roland was actually key noise...or lack there of. It's fairly quiet. I know everyone says that an acoustic piano is also noisy, and that it is...however, an acoustic piano is also a lot louder. We use headphones or play softly, or have our speakers low...so these noises are much more apparent. Anyway...I have a friend of mine that is a top Latin music producer, and he is using the NI S88 to play Salsa...he loves it.


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