# Full orchestration sketch with piano only?



## Henu (Jul 26, 2021)

I'm starting a new project and inspired by recent studies (and personal backfires) of mine, I'd like to practice more of how "less is more" and how to voice instruments better.

I've sometimes stumbled upon pure "piano versions" (basically just a rendered midi file) people have made for their full orchestrations before any proper mockups/ recordings, and I was wondering if it would actually be a useful method to practice the harmony and voicings. Has anyone of you used that method and do you think it would be worth trying out in order to hear the abovementioned things better compared to working on instrument-specific libraries?


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## Frogs Can Talk (Jul 26, 2021)

Henu said:


> I'm starting a new project and inspired by recent studies (and personal backfires) of mine, I'd like to practice more of how "less is more" and how to voice instruments better.
> 
> I've sometimes stumbled upon pure "piano versions" (basically just a rendered midi file) people have made for their full orchestrations before any proper mockups/ recordings, and I was wondering if it would actually be a useful method to practice the harmony and voicings. Has anyone of you used that method and do you think it would be worth trying out in order to hear the abovementioned things better compared to working on instrument-specific libraries?


Good question! Really interested to hear from people who make that work.

I tried to do this for a while last year and, I must admit, miserably failed. I think to benefit from this method, you must be a decent piano player who can record on the fly his/her ideas, which is absolutely not my case. If you enter your music step by step, or with the mouse, directly in an orchestral template, there's no benefit at all. And even worse, it's just more work to do in the end!

I do use the piano to check musical ideas with a neutral sound though. I think it helps me put things into perspective, and see the big picture.


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## Henu (Jul 26, 2021)

Well, I don't know if you have to be a piano player at all- in fact, I think this method (or rather what is tried to get achieved with it) would actually greatly _benefit_ from mechanical quantizing and thus wouldn't imply piano playing as a necessity as all. But I can also be horribly wrong, haha!


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## MartinH. (Jul 26, 2021)

Henu said:


> I'm starting a new project and inspired by recent studies (and personal backfires) of mine, I'd like to practice more of how "less is more" and how to voice instruments better.
> 
> I've sometimes stumbled upon pure "piano versions" (basically just a rendered midi file) people have made for their full orchestrations before any proper mockups/ recordings, and I was wondering if it would actually be a useful method to practice the harmony and voicings. Has anyone of you used that method and do you think it would be worth trying out in order to hear the abovementioned things better compared to working on instrument-specific libraries?



I say go for it! It probably won't work as well for some types of music as it does for others and some harmonic ideas might not transfer the same way to other instruments because of the differences in overtones, but you'll likely learn a lot from it and I believe it can help save time by focusing on a more limited set of choices in the beginning. Whether you use a piano sound or a synth or whatever is up to you to pick. When I asked in the past what single instrument would be a good choice here other than piano, organs were mentioned and I can see why.


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## youngpokie (Jul 26, 2021)

Not sure if this is similar or not, but here's what I've done (and learned).

I was reading an article on Prokofiev creative process a while back and learned that he would only write a "condensed score" during composition and orchestration, everything enclosed within 2 to 4 staves. Then he would manually write the markings to indicate instrumentation - who plays this or that - and give the thing to his assistants to "orchestrate". This lead to me an idea of trying out a harmonic outline of a piece, along with voice leading as aid in composition/orchestration.

An old example: for a string quartet, I added a piano staff to record harmony and work out the voice leading; the next step is to write out the real instrument parts. The example below shows how it looked in the early stages of the process: voice leading is done (and gets revised on the fly if needed), now the writing out of the parts begins; some are already composed, but some are not.






I've also used this for some orchestral stuff and it's key to achieving very full sound, especially with some more complex progressions. It's astonishing how incredible some chord progressions sound with "correct" voice leading and how lifeless and "grey" some of them are without it.

It also helps a great deal when orchestrating sections, for example the chordal harmonies in woodwinds. And since the voices and their motion are now clear, the doublings of the individual voices become more transparent and visible. The effect on sound quality is really worth it.

However, I also found some disadvantages to this approach - it really depends on where in the process I turn to it.

For me personally it works best _after_ I have a solid idea of what my textures will be (specifically, the countermelodies and the rhythmic figures underneath them). But if I have only a vague sense of the "texture" in this definition, then setting up the voice leading staff and filling it out for the entire piece somehow changes my mental focus and also forces me to "perceive" the piece differently. Whenever I didn't have enough detail worked out before starting on the voice leading, I lost "the vibe" in the process. It happened a couple of times.

So, what I'm doing now is a twist on the original idea:

- turning to voice leading only once I know what I want texturally and "when needed" depending on the portion of the piece. Now, my voice leading staff has some empty holes in it as well as portions that are filled out (and often revised).

- writing out voice leading in the rhythmic pattern of the texture (and not as sustain "pads" like the example above). This makes it slightly harder to follow, but really helps retain the texture in mind.

I'm really enjoying it now and the more I do it, the faster it gets and I think with time I won't need the aid of the dedicated "voice leading" staff anymore. But for now I find it to be a very helpful tool.

Anyway, apologies for the novel - just wanted to share my experience.


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## Frogs Can Talk (Jul 26, 2021)

Henu said:


> Well, I don't know if you have to be a piano player at all- in fact, I think this method (or rather what is tried to get achieved with it) would actually greatly _benefit_ from mechanical quantizing and thus wouldn't imply piano playing as a necessity as all. But I can also be horribly wrong, haha!


Well, as said, didn't work at all for me! But you should give it a try on your next work, that's the only way to find out.


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## kitekrazy (Jul 26, 2021)

Frogs Can Talk said:


> *Good question! Really interested to hear from people who make that work.*
> 
> I tried to do this for a while last year and, I must admit, miserably failed. I think to benefit from this method, you must be a decent piano player who can record on the fly his/her ideas, which is absolutely not my case. If you enter your music step by step, or with the mouse, directly in an orchestral template, there's no benefit at all. And even worse, it's just more work to do in the end!
> 
> I do use the piano to check musical ideas with a neutral sound though. I think it helps me put things into perspective, and see the big picture.


 Most of them are dead. I would imagine this is how most works started at one time.


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## Arbee (Jul 26, 2021)

While it's great discipline and very useful, using piano only might encourage you to play safe and avoid dissonance that would be perfectly musical once orchestrated. But with a well developed inner ear perhaps not...


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## Aldunate (Jul 26, 2021)

I would recommend you study this https://imslp.org/wiki/Pavane_pour_une_infante_défunte_(Ravel,_Maurice)

Originally for Piano 4 hands, then orchestrated by himself (see Arrangements and Transcriptions).
Emulating the Piano sound usually calls for resonance effects that aren't written.


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## IvanP (Jul 27, 2021)

Great post!

I use this method sometimes. mostly I need to write properly symphonic and specially if I don't need to deliver a mockup.

For example, I orchestrated this piece entirely from a piano sketch:



EDIT: And here's the Original piano sketch:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oy9azwu58n770pg/Ivan%20Palomares%20Piano%20SKETCH.aiff?dl=0


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## Michael Antrum (Jul 31, 2021)

As a pianist first, a great deal of what I write starts off as a two handed piano part, I don’t find it limiting at all, and In fact it helps me as often it forms the basis for the orchestration that follows. Then again, I do write sitting at the piano a great deal of the time. When I‘m travelling, which I do a great deal, I use Staffpad with a mini keyboard.

It is worth considering that the reverse process is often helpful too. I have often taken a piece of music that I am unhappy with, and reduce down to its essentials, and then it becomes clear what I am unhappy with. By reducing the music down to its bare essentials, the flaws are exposed, and if the music isn’t the issue, then the reduction helps me to consider redeploying the instruments to get back to what I was trying to say in the music.


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## ed buller (Jul 31, 2021)

IvanP said:


> Great post!
> 
> I use this method sometimes. mostly I need to write properly symphonic and specially if I don't need to deliver a mockup.
> 
> For example, I orchestrated this piece entirely from a piano sketch:



gorgeous music...sounds fabulous

best

e


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## d.healey (Jul 31, 2021)

I usually start with only a piano, usually 4 or 8 staves, sometimes with some percussion. I also do this when I'm studying a piece of music (or part of a piece) to help me understand how it works.

https://www.dropbox.com/home?preview=Robin_Hood_Main_Theme.mp3 (Here's) a piano mockup I made of the BBC Robin Hood series main theme (you can find the original on YouTube)

Here's one from Silverado





Here's a run from back to the future that I was trying to break down


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## IvanP (Aug 2, 2021)

ed buller said:


> gorgeous music...sounds fabulous
> 
> best
> 
> e


Thank you!!! 

Just added the Piano sketch in the original post, if anyone would like to compare


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## mallux (Aug 2, 2021)

I find that I tend to complete more pieces (and they end up more structurally sensible and interesting) if I sketch them out end-to-end with two or three pianos first. My hard disk is full of fully orchestrated 8-bar loops that sound great in isolation but have no overall context because I just ran out of steam going too deep too soon.

Trouble is, I love the strong, percussive sound of a piano, so I have to be careful not to get too attached to the sound of the sketch, otherwise every piece ends up as a piano concerto.  

Maybe the answer is to use a really cheap and nasty VST? Or an electric piano, I've noticed a lot of people use them for sketching, maybe because they aren't so attacky and can hold a long sustain.


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## Henu (Aug 2, 2021)

Thanks folks, really good tips here!

My biggest problem with sketching with piano + two hands is that I never bother to "clean" my sketches and leave _way too much_ for the actual orchestration phase. So I thought that maybe if I actually clean my sketch properly first and then write at least instrument groups (winds, brass, etc) with the piano it would help me better to hear the harmonies and tonal balance before the actual orchestration.

Even I have proper training behind me, I find orchestrating (which I've been trying to study while working for the last 3-4 years) a completely different thing than e.g. arranging for a jazz horn section. Compared to jazz, it's really hard to for me to orchestrate chords and chordal lines and melodies, and I was thinking that maybe "hearing everything played with a single timbre/instrument" I could hear better which notes need doubling or octaves, how much fifths are needed and how should I spread out the notes within each section. Now I feel it's just a hit or miss, using only my ears for balancing the sections and having absolutely no theoretical knowledge to tell me how to divide e.g. chords by sections.


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## dhmusic (Aug 2, 2021)

Henu said:


> Thanks folks, really good tips here!
> 
> My biggest problem with sketching with piano + two hands is that I never bother to "clean" my sketches and leave _way too much_ for the actual orchestration phase. So I thought that maybe if I actually clean my sketch properly first and then write at least instrument groups (winds, brass, etc) with the piano it would help me better to hear the harmonies and tonal balance before the actual orchestration.
> 
> Even I have proper training behind me, I find orchestrating (which I've been trying to study while working for the last 3-4 years) a completely different thing than e.g. arranging for a jazz horn section. Compared to jazz, it's really hard to for me to orchestrate chords and chordal lines and melodies, and I was thinking that maybe "hearing everything played with a single timbre/instrument" I could hear better which notes need doubling or octaves, how much fifths are needed and how should I spread out the notes within each section. Now I feel it's just a hit or miss, using only my ears for balancing the sections and having absolutely no theoretical knowledge to tell me how to divide e.g. chords by sections.


Yo Henu! 

Have you tried reorchestrating some music you're really familiar with? Maybe something from a video game that has all the midi parts ready and clearly labeled. It might help to limit yourself to monophonic lines with only one solo instrument per section. That should help develop some colorful timbral separation. Also let it sound "thin" until you're done filling in the parts. I like to think of this as leaving room for the instruments to dance lol.

I did last month with a couple FF8 tracks and learned a lot in the process.

Also regarding sketching on piano, I find it only works for me to find a general pattern or riff. Once I have that I'm really just procrastinating/enjoying the fantasy of what I'm imagining the music will be like - which is probably an important part actually. But really everything happens one note at a time after that, just mouse and keyboard. That helps me get into a groove. 

It sucks at first but then I calm down and start getting a sense of the bigger picture and how much room I need to leave for other parts. If I play at my piano for too long it starts great and inspiring but after a while I start getting really frustrated and anxious. I think it's because I end up holding too many ideas in my head that really need to be laid out in a clean, coherent fashion.

I'm the same regarding orchestration theory, I just use my ears and intuition since I don't have any formal training in that sense. And hey I mean you might end up making trash every now and then lol, just make sure you're proud of it and then make some more. If it seems cluttered, try one less instrument, etc.

It might help to focus on woodwinds for a while. They're the most timbrally diverse section so learning to blend those might help all the other stuff come together.

I think I wrote too much sorry. Hope some of it helps and is coherent.


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## youngpokie (Aug 2, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> Once I have that I'm really just procrastinating/enjoying the fantasy of what I'm imagining the music will be like - which is probably an important part actually.


That fantasy is actually a crucial step - and exactly the right moment to start assigning or copying the individual parts to orchestral instruments right as you're imagining them.

It will be a patchwork, with bits and pieces all over, but it will start to map out the piece in terms of core timbers that carry the most important melodic material, from one theme or moment to another. Playing these "parts" along with the piano track can then become a catalyst for (especially) countermelodies or for textures, essentially repeating the process once again. 

The mind always wants to "fill the gaps" so this tactic is an unfailing and effective creative tool.


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## Henu (Aug 9, 2021)

Yeah, I've done some mockups from World of Warcraft and find that really helpful to an extent!

As an update, I've been trying to experiment arranging some new material of mine with a single piano, but it doesn't really give me the results I was thinking to achieve. Since last week, I have taken a way more "line"-based approach and it has been a tremendous help.

So after all, I think that the idea of using a piano _only_ isn't really going to save me as long as I don't have a proper composition in my hands. :D There have been some really good tips on this thread though, so thanks for all the ideas!


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## marclawsonmusic (Aug 10, 2021)

I noticed this thread a couple of weeks ago, but didn't have the chance to comment then...

I am experimenting working with a 4-staff piano reduction for orchestral music. But rather than think of 'sections', I think in terms of 'layers' - mostly defined by range (since there is often a lot of doubling across sections).

For me, this approach allows me to focus on (a) location and structure of the melody , (b) location and structure of harmonic material (above or below that), and (c) location and structure of countermelody (if there is one). During this phase, I am mainly focused on the structure of the piece and getting voice-leading right.

After that, it's easy to see if there are any 'holes' in the orchestration. For example, if the melody is in the low or mid register, there is often a lot of space up high for woodwind figures or other accompaniment. Once completed, it's a nice roadmap for doing the MIDI orchestration.

Here are a couple of examples:

*A Happy Accident - GUIDE TRACK (piano reduction)*


*A Happy Accident - Final*




*Sons of the Fallen - GUIDE TRACK*


*Sons of the Fallen - Final*


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## Henu (Aug 11, 2021)

This "finding the holes" is exactly what I'm trying to hear as well, and even more than that, I'm trying to find out which ranges are bloated with futile information. Excellent stuff you've done, sir!


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## marclawsonmusic (Aug 11, 2021)

Thanks!


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## Romy Schmidt (Aug 15, 2021)

Henu said:


> I'm starting a new project and inspired by recent studies (and personal backfires) of mine, I'd like to practice more of how "less is more" and how to voice instruments better.
> 
> I've sometimes stumbled upon pure "piano versions" (basically just a rendered midi file) people have made for their full orchestrations before any proper mockups/ recordings, and I was wondering if it would actually be a useful method to practice the harmony and voicings. Has anyone of you used that method and do you think it would be worth trying out in order to hear the abovementioned things better compared to working on instrument-specific libraries?


I always write a composition as a pianoscore. It makes it easier to check the voicing, counterpoint and harmony. 2 layers in upper staf and 2 in lower staff. This summer I'm writing 6 string quartets. I might add a Basso Continuo if I need a version for chamber orchestra, just for the fun of it.

By the way, I planned on writing the string quartets in fall, but the weather here was so bad, that I decided not to wait. Heat waves all around the globe and we got a typical Dutch summer.


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