# How do you make your piece of music more "tempo organic"?



## Jeffrey Peterson (Jul 17, 2011)

Basically is there any easy way to be the conductor controlling the speed of the song? 

Manually entering tempo changes/retards does not make the song come alive, but sounds artificial and not right.


Ritardando, rubato, stringendo?

Is there a trick?


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## RiffWraith (Jul 17, 2011)

Doing tempo changes works prety well here - so long as they are not extremely drastic. Cubase has a ramp tempo feature; this is what I use.

Keep in mind that for certain applications - such as trailer tracks, library tracks...basically anything an editor will cut - you do not want tempo changes. Tracks that have tempo changes are that much more diffucult to cut; editors prefer the track to be the same tempo throughout, so they can cut out 8 bars (for ex.) without any issues.

Cheers.


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## mverta (Jul 17, 2011)

I don't use a click - I play and let the music be what it needs to be, and I reverse-engineer a click after the fact. It takes a bit, but the end result is a click that is human.

_Mike


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 17, 2011)

I record in real time a lot of very subtle tempo changes throughout in Logic using a tempo fader and program in ritards and accels.

Sometimes I do play out of tempo and beat map later.


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## wst3 (Jul 17, 2011)

mverta @ Sun Jul 17 said:


> I don't use a click - I play and let the music be what it needs to be, and I reverse-engineer a click after the fact. It takes a bit, but the end result is a click that is human.
> 
> _Mike



If I might... what tools/platform are you using?

I prefer to play first and create the click after, but most of the tools I've tried (I am on a Windows PC) have made the process pretty darned frustrating! Sonar used to have a fit-to-improv that worked, wasn't perfect, but it was workable. With the advent of their beat detecting tool - Audio Snap - they seem to have lost interest in Fit to Improv.

So maybe I need to learn how to use Audio Snap? I don't know.

I haven't used a truly useful and flexible tempo mapping tool since Bars & Pipes Professional, but to be fair, that was a MIDI only platform (I did have the Sunrize hardware that gave me minimal audio support - and I loved it!)

OK, back to the question - what are you using to work this way? Thanks!


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## JonFairhurst (Jul 17, 2011)

I just draw in the tempo needed in Sonar.

Personally, I like to keep the tempo (nearly) constant and add/subtract beats for action music. And for dramatic music, I like to keep the meter constant and mess with the tempo. It's especially fun to draw out the moment with an extreme ritardando. I once did a trailer that drew out the moment with a 20:1 slowdown of the tempo of an ostinato. Watching it, one is hardly aware of the slowdown (IMO), let alone that it's so extreme.

It's funny. Intuition says that speeding things up adds intensity. I personally find that a slowing tempo is much more intense.


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## Daniel (Jul 17, 2011)

Jeffrey Peterson @ 17th July 2011 said:


> Basically is there any easy way to be the conductor controlling the speed of the song?
> 
> Manually entering tempo changes/retards does not make the song come alive, but sounds artificial and not right.
> 
> ...



Maybe Cubase 6 will help you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7qAZXb-u5Q
please see at 2:20

Best,


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## impressions (Jul 18, 2011)

mike's way is the best, because when you play it in real time you have that sense of direction of where you've been and where you're probably going to, tempo-wise.

there is a serious drawback to this if you're not a pianist, it'll take you tons of takes to land a good drum track, well actually that is the most easy track you can make and be able to play if you're NOT a pianist. you can use click, and then see if you can do it as "tight" as much without the metronome.

after that you can try and work your way on other instruments, the guide is to hear it as though the instruments themselves are playing(and not the computer) with as much emotion as possible. might want to check out mike's podcast about mock-ups.


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## Rob (Jul 18, 2011)

Jeffrey Peterson @ 18th July 2011 said:


> Basically is there any easy way to be the conductor controlling the speed of the song?
> 
> Manually entering tempo changes/retards does not make the song come alive, but sounds artificial and not right.
> 
> ...



if you mostly compose notated scores, Notion3 has a very nice feature tempo-wise... create a tempo track, record the bar subdivisions you want to beat, ie in a certain measure you want to beat 8th notes for a ritenuto, next measure you beat quarter notes etc. and then you "conduct" the piece and all the tracks follow your tempo. It works very well...


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## MacQ (Jul 18, 2011)

Using Cubase 6 on a PC, I use both methods described. Either I'll re-conform a click to my improvised tempo, which is generally more organic, but for simpler stuff, I'll use the tempo ramp in Cubase. Either way, I think that elasticated tempo is the absolute key to emotional power. Nuance can say a LOT. Plus, it's a lot easier to hit picture if you have that kind of control. For action stuff, I just keep a (more or less) constant tempo and add/subtract beats as necessary. To get it really tight I might nudge up/down as much as 2% or so ... something unnoticeable to just about everyone, as it'll be like 140bpm to 143bpm over a period of 16 bars, so it's very very subtle. For that I don't use the ramp tool, I just use the "Jump" tempo tool.

Speaking of hitting picture ... Cubase let's you warp the grid and have musical events (MIDI) follow, and I use that a lot to get the hit points extremely tight. My tempo might read "142.157bpm", but if I'm recording live musicians I'm recording to that click anyway, so I don't worry about rounded-off tempo markings.

~Stu


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## JonFairhurst (Jul 18, 2011)

MacQ @ Mon Jul 18 said:


> For action stuff, I just keep a (more or less) constant tempo and add/subtract beats as necessary. To get it really tight I might nudge up/down as much as 2% or so ... something unnoticeable to just about everyone, as it'll be like 140bpm to 143bpm over a period of 16 bars, so it's very very subtle. For that I don't use the ramp tool, I just use the "Jump" tempo tool.



That's been my approach with Sonar - only I tend to use ramps. I'll have to try steps or jumps and see if that's also unnoticeable. I think that I've had to move the tempo by more than 2% even with meter changes to really Mickey Mouse things. I wonder if ramping lets one move the tempo more than stepping.

In any case, stepping is much simpler than ramping when you need to sync hits! To ramp, one needs to anticipate things and ramp early to ensure you get there in time.


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## reddognoyz (Jul 18, 2011)

mverta @ Sun Jul 17 said:


> I don't use a click - I play and let the music be what it needs to be, and I reverse-engineer a click after the fact. It takes a bit, but the end result is a click that is human.
> 
> _Mike



Same here, I play in the melody or what ever part I'm hearing freely and I'll reverse engineer a click as well. Depending on the material I might remove some of the tempo shifts, but frequently just leave as is, especially if it's not percussion based material. I'm usually scoring to picture so it's great to have my playing respond naturally to the image.

I'm in DP and it's easy enough to do that.


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## Mahlon (Jul 18, 2011)

MacQ @ Mon Jul 18 said:


> Using Cubase 6 on a PC, I use both methods described. Either I'll re-conform a click to my improvised tempo, which is generally more organic...
> ~Stu



How do you do this in Cubase? I'm not a Cubase user so I'm curious as to the steps involved.

Thanks,
Mahlon


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Jul 18, 2011)

Mverta you mean you compose your whole session without being in the realm of measures? Thats like writing out notation on blank paper...not so extreme I'm sure, but still....


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## MikeH (Jul 18, 2011)

Jeffrey Peterson @ Mon Jul 18 said:


> Mverta you mean you compose your whole session without being in the realm of measures? Thats like writing out notation on blank paper...not so extreme I'm sure, but still....



I do the exact same thing. The 'measures' and structure of the piece are in your head...the sequencer is just used as a recording tool. Of course, I play every part in one by one (I don't draw notes in or anything-- it's all done live). That might have something to do with why it works better for me.


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## wst3 (Jul 18, 2011)

Hi Jon,



JonFairhurst @ Mon Jul 18 said:


> I just draw in the tempo needed in Sonar.



Talktome... really, I've tried just about every thing I can think of in Sonar, and I've yet to find any way to really manage tempo smoothly. I just installed X1, so maybe they finally updated their tempo map - going to go look in a minute, but in the meantime I would like to hear more - if you think this is too far OT feel free to PM me.



JonFairhurst said:


> Personally, I like to keep the tempo (nearly) constant and add/subtract beats for action music.


Agreed - amazing how far you can push that too, especially with the current appreciation for thundering percussion.



JonFairhurst said:


> And for dramatic music, I like to keep the meter constant and mess with the tempo. <snip>


This is the thing I am having difficulty with - getting those tempo changes to work smoothly.

In the ideal world I would prefer to just play the part in, audio or MIDI, and then extract the timing to create the tempo map. But I can not seem to do it repeatedly in Sonar.



JonFairhurst said:


> It's funny. Intuition says that speeding things up adds intensity. I personally find that a slowing tempo is much more intense.



Interesting - going to have to play with this idea! But it makes immediate sense to me. Go figure!

Thanks!

Bill


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## Mahlon (Jul 19, 2011)

I don't think X1 updates the tempo map. Could be wrong, but I don't think so.

Mahlon


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## JonFairhurst (Jul 19, 2011)

In Sonar, I use the Draw Line tool. It used to make straight lines in Sonar 8, but in X1 it's quantized in time. I think 1/32 triplets is the shortest time you can set. In my layout, the duration is shown in the upper left corner of the app.

Frankly, you can't hear the difference between 1/32 steps and a straight line, but the line looks much better.

Hopefully, they will update the tempo map for X2. I'd like to be able to use temporary maps. For instance, I might slow down the tempo and make it flat when recording. I then want to go back to my previous, artistic tempo map for playback and sync with video. I'd also like to lock hit points and be able to have the app automatically set the needed tempo. It would be cool to have meter or tempo priority and have the app add/remove the speed or beats, respectively.

It would also be cool to be able to use bezier curves to edit the tempo, having it maintain the hit points while going slow to fast, fast to slow or whatever. Ideally, it would act like a squeezed balloon. Speed it up on the front end and it would automatically slow down on the back end. I also want to set locked and unlocked regions so the app isn't allowed to change tempos that are already finished.


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## mikebarry (Jul 19, 2011)

Don't quantize - I think that is the whole game.

Edit velocities - sure.

Edit notes - sure.

Add CC 7 or 11 if you prefer - sure.

Change your human performance? NO!! 

Keep recording till you get the performance in the pocket - then use it and edit it.

Active percussion being an exception. That being said - I don't quantize stuff like bass drum, timpani.

It is less conductor track then one would think - its all the micro detail.


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## Guy Bacos (Jul 20, 2011)

I don't agree about establishing any rules when it comes to programming. The idea is to recreate music from samples, so any method can to that, as long is it's done tastefully. It depends a LOT on the TYPE of writing, sometimes partly quantizing may avoid clumsiness between parts. But this is like anything, done moderately and with good taste, why not? At the end of the day, it's still YOUR taste that will be reflected in the music, so if it enhances your music, it's a valid method for me. Quantizing is a no, no for me in general, and I try to avoid using the click, but I don't like to say: Never quantize.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 20, 2011)

Guy Bacos @ Wed Jul 20 said:


> I don't agree about establishing any rules when it comes to programming. The idea is to recreate music from samples, so any method can to that, as long is it's done tastefully. It depends a LOT on the TYPE of writing, sometimes partly quantizing may avoid clumsiness between parts. But this is like anything, done moderately and with good taste, why not? At the end of the day, it's still YOUR taste that will be reflected in the music, so if it enhances your music, it's a valid method for me. Quantizing is a no, no for me in general, and I try to avoid using the click, but I don't like to say: Never quantize.



+1.


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## handz (Jul 20, 2011)

Im sucks at the piano, so I usually only uising it to find some cool melodies which I then insert to sequencer manualy, so I always thinking about how to humanize tempo more, is there some option in Cubase 5 how that would work like this - you hit play and than will adjust tempo on the go with some controller fader?


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## handz (Jul 20, 2011)

Meanwhile on Internet...

"The Tempo Recording fader in the Tempo Editor allows you to record tempo changes with the mouse while the Project is playing back — sadly there seems to be no way to assign this fader to a physical fader on a control surface."

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov06/a ... h_1106.htm

Great Cubase, using this with mouse is clunky as hell and also it is reacting very strangely :-/


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## RyBen (Aug 10, 2011)

I pretty much play it at the tempo I want it to be and if I can't then I tap out a random note or chord (the number of notes you'll be using in the end) on every beat that I know the note/chord will sound. Then I go back, select all the notes and just play them. It's pretty much a way of dictating the rhythm before the the actual notes. I know it works quite intuitively in Cubase, but not sure about other DAWs. The beauty of it is that Cubase kinda thinks like an auto-arranger as far as discerning one note/chord from another. Hopefully this makes sense.


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## adg21 (Sep 17, 2011)

I'm interested in how any of you are reverse engineering you tempo tracks after the performance. I've tried before and found it very tricky, to do in either in cubase or protools


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## JMDNYC (Sep 18, 2011)

adg21 @ Sun Sep 18 said:


> I'm interested in how any of you are reverse engineering you tempo tracks after the performance. I've tried before and found it very tricky, to do in either in cubase or protools


I do it all the time in Pro Tools, and here's how:

For a midi performance make the guide midi track very big in the Arrange window and set the track to notes. This way you can tab to the next note. Tabbing to midi notes doesn't work in the midi editor for reasons unknown. IMPORTANT STEP: change your midi guide track to sample based instead of tick based.

For an audio performance make sure "tab to transients" is selected.

Tab over to a downbeat, do "Command I" (Identify Beat), type in the beat number (like 2 for the second bar or 4.3 for the third beat of the fourth bar). A tempo map starts to be created. Repeat until exhausted by boredom. I usually identify every measure, not every beat.

Advanced topics: To get a clean count off you either want to drag the diamond in the tempo ruler to the first downbeat or else figure out what the opening tempo is exactly, establish that tempo about thirty seconds before then adjust the tempo before the thirty-seconds-before bar so that the count off exactly hits the downbeat. The reason for doing this second, more complicated method is if you have multiple cues in the same session. There is only one diamond tempo anchor per session. I have no idea what the proper name of this little diamond is, nor have I ever seen its use described in any Pro Tools manual.

Bonus points: what is the difference between a green tempo ruler and a blue tempo ruler?


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## uCtaudio (Sep 19, 2011)

Hi!

A friend of mine is working on this:

The ADIG HUMAN SYNCHRONIZER is a revolutionary Tempo Controller that puts the musician back in charge!

No longer are you locked to a tempo dictated by the machines you use!

Let the music dictate the tempo! You may want to speed up a little in the chorus, then slow down going back to the verse? Now you can use tempo musically and creatively again, where you as the musician, set the tempo in real-time. A musician's dream come through! 

http://www.adiginvention.com/


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## adg21 (Sep 19, 2011)

Thanks JMDNYC


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## Mahlon (Sep 19, 2011)

adg21 @ Sun Sep 18 said:


> I'm interested in how any of you are reverse engineering you tempo tracks after the performance. I've tried before and found it very tricky, to do in either in cubase or protools



In Sonar, you play your performance in without using the metronome. Then you go back and use a process called "Set Measure/Beat Now", which will let you define which notes are on which beats. So you advance the cursor to where you know the next note is, say it's on beat 3 measure two, and hit enter. Sonar puts in a series of tempos to make sure that that point in time is beat 3 of measure two. Your performance never changes, but the beat grid re-aligns itself to your performance.

Mahlon


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