# Anyone ever run Windows in Hyper-V?



## AlexRuger (Jul 13, 2021)

I'm always look into ways of making a Windows DAW rig more stable. I recently had a lightbulb moment: Hyper-V, the Microsoft-developed VM hypervisor on Windows, is a _Type 1 Hypervisor, _meaning that it has _direct access _to the hardware -- i.e. in theory there should be zero performance hit when running a DAW inside of a Hyper-V virtual machine, as opposed to _Type 2 Hypervisors, _such as VirtualBox, VMWare, etc, which of course incur a massive performance hit.

Think about it: moving your whole DAW setup from one machine to another would simply entail installing your bare-bones host Windows installation, enabling Hyper-V, moving your VM over to the new machine, and...you're done. Simple as that. You could also have snapshots/checkpoints in case you fuck up your VM somehow -- just roll back to an earlier version, piece of cake.

Anyone ever try this? I've got a spare machine I'm thinking I might give it a go on.


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## EgM (Jul 13, 2021)

If I recall correctly, you need Windows Server to have discrete device assignment. I did try it a few years back and it still suffered all the problems of most VMs—latency.

I have no idea if it does work better these days though, DAW through Hyper-V is cool concept but not something I'd like to depend on  But keep us posted, I'd love to be proven wrong


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## easyrider (Jul 13, 2021)

Running an OS within an OS for a DAW and all the issues involved with it would make me think what’s the point….

I run 3 virtual machines as backup servers…but using one as a DAW would be latency hell…tie that along with USB pass through etc….









How To Perform a USB Passthrough in Hyper-V -- Redmondmag.com


If you're familiar with how to access a USB device from inside a VMware environment, be aware -- the process isn't quite as seamless as it is in Hyper-V. Here's how to do it in Hyper-V at the host and client levels.




redmondmag.com


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## marclawsonmusic (Jul 13, 2021)

Hmmm... Latency _might _be less of an issue if it is just serving samples... so maybe it would be a good candidate for a VEPro server? 

Following with interest.


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## easyrider (Jul 13, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Hmmm... Latency _might _be less of an issue if it is just serving samples... so maybe it would be a good candidate for a VEPro server?
> 
> Following with interest.


“The next thing I tried was running VEPro on a VM of Windows I have running on a storage server. This was a terrible idea. Besides the fact that I could barely load any instruments, there were major operability problems that (my guess) had something to do with the need for low latency access to samples that VM’s are unable to handle. So scratch that idea, a dedicated computer was next.“



https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/production-expert-1/2020/5/6/gg9uaezolkjoi98makr4g940mqk4qx


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## EgM (Jul 13, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Hmmm... Latency _might _be less of an issue if it is just serving samples... so maybe it would be a good candidate for a VEPro server?
> 
> Following with interest.


The same latency issues that plague audio output also apply to networking and disk access latency sadly


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## AlexRuger (Jul 13, 2021)

You guys are missing some really important points that I tried to make clear in my original post.

I am _not _talking about Type 2 Hypervisors, i.e. what we tend to traditionally think of as "virtual machines." Obviously those are no-go's.

Type 1 Hypervisors are a completely different thing altogether. See here for more info: https://phoenixnap.com/kb/what-is-hypervisor-type-1-2

That said, looks like the answer to my original question is "no." I'll give it a go and report back.


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## AlexRuger (Jul 13, 2021)

EgM said:


> If I recall correctly, you need Windows Server to have discrete device assignment. I did try it a few years back and it still suffered all the problems of most VMs—latency.
> 
> I have no idea if it does work better these days though, DAW through Hyper-V is cool concept but not something I'd like to depend on  But keep us posted, I'd love to be proven wrong


Good to know about Windows Server. I assumed as much.

Yeah, I could honestly maybe see it working nowadays, considering how standard Docker and whatnot are in the dev world. 

Honestly, it would be way *better* to depend on than a bare metal OS. It would effectively erase setup time when putting together new machines/restoring after a drive failure, and moving to a new machine would be as simple as copying over a file and installing a single app. It'd be fucking awesome.


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## darkogav (Jul 13, 2021)

you can try. ESXi is free IIRC. load up a Win 10 machine and install the DAW. I don't think you will see much benefit. Its going to acrue latency when you connect audio interface and midi devices that are being service via the hypervisor layer.


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## easyrider (Jul 13, 2021)

AlexRuger said:


> : Hyper-V, the Microsoft-developed VM hypervisor on Windows, is a _Type 1 Hypervisor, _meaning that it has _direct access _to the hardware --


Limitations​Programs that depend on specific hardware will not work well in a virtual machine. For example, games or applications that require processing with GPUs might not work well. Also, applications relying on sub-10ms timers such as live music mixing applications or high precision times could have issues running in a virtual machine.

In addition, if you have Hyper-V enabled, those latency-sensitive, high-precision applications may also have issues running in the host. This is because with virtualization enabled, the host OS also runs on top of the Hyper-V virtualization layer, just as guest operating systems do. However, unlike guests, the host OS is special in that it has direct access to all the hardware, which means that applications with special hardware requirements can still run without issues in the host OS.









Introduction to Hyper-V on Windows 10


Introduction to Hyper-V, virtualization, and related technologies.



docs.microsoft.com






I'm using Hyper V for my virtual machine backup servers....


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## EgM (Jul 13, 2021)

AlexRuger said:


> You guys are missing some really important points that I tried to make clear in my original post.
> 
> I am _not _talking about Type 2 Hypervisors, i.e. what we tend to traditionally think of as "virtual machines." Obviously those are no-go's.
> 
> ...


Nah, I was totally talking about type 1 HV  From all the searches I've done, when it comes to latency, there seems to be problems even today, networking latency, etc.

Honestly, a VM/KVM has one job, either a host or whatever but it usually doesn't matter that the host takes 43ms to respond but in audio we're talking -critical- time response

If you have the time to try it, I still want to know the results though, DO IT! :D

As @easyrider mentioned, a DAW user should never enable Hyper-V on his/her primary machine as it causes so many problems with audio driver reliability most related to DPC latency


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## Nico5 (Jul 14, 2021)

AlexRuger said:


> You could also have snapshots/checkpoints in case you fuck up your VM somehow -- just roll back to an earlier version, piece of cake.


Rolling back can also be solved relatively well via a combination of Windows restore points and decent backup/restore software. There may be others, but I'm currently using Macrium Reflect, which also implements the concept of a snapshot. But since it also has the ability to do incremental and differential backups, it allows for highly flexible backup and restore strategy.

That being said, the idea of moving an entire DAW environment between different hardware is intriguing. So I will follow your experiment will great interest!

Also: Latency requirements are really dependent on one's particular DAW use case. Not every DAW user needs ultra low latency. For example, someone who mostly scores by entering notes, or someone who draws midi data or someone who mostly creates generative music or someone who mostly mixes and/or masters may not have the same need for very low latency.


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## AlexRuger (Jul 14, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> Rolling back can also be solved relatively well via a combination of Windows restore points and decent backup/restore software. There may be others, but I'm currently using Macrium Reflect, which also implements the concept of a snapshot. But since it also has the ability to do incremental and differential backups, it allows for highly flexible backup and restore strategy.


Absolutely, I already use this stuff. But snapshots in VMs are _really _nice. It's a completely different level of quality of life.


Nico5 said:


> Also: Latency requirements are really dependent on one's particular DAW use case. Not every DAW user needs ultra low latency. For example, someone who mostly scores by entering notes, or someone who draws midi data or someone who mostly creates generative music or someone who mostly mixes and/or masters may not have the same need for very low latency.


My use-cases and those of my tech clients involve the maximum performance and lowest latency possible. And that's what I'm interested in retaining.


Nico5 said:


> That being said, the idea of moving an entire DAW environment between different hardware is intriguing. So I will follow your experiment will great interest!


Totally. I got the idea because my development environment is a Debian Linux installation run through Parallels on my Mac. Get a new Mac, just move the VM over to it -- voila, done, same environment. Would be amazing to have the same thing for a DAW environment.


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