# Concealed Fifths



## bluejay (Nov 18, 2006)

Hi,

I'm currently working through Tchaikovsky's 'Guide to the Practical Study of Harmony' and I'm confused over the following point regarding concealed fifths (also known as hidden consecutives or exposed fifths). 

I have scanned in parts of the book here to illustrate my point but I'll happily remove them if required.

Here are the points that I think are relevant. In the first section (from page 16) we see parallel fifths and octaves. He tries to remove them by moving the bass in the opposite direction only to run into another octave and fifth problem (although I don't what you'd call it as they the voices aren't moving in the same direction).







Anyway, he then solves the problem by moving the top voices in contrary motion as we can see (fom page 17).






My question is this: Doesn't the solution itself contain a concealed fifth? The E and top C voices moving to D and A respectively. I've added some lines in cyan to highlight where I mean on the stave.

Advice on this matter would be most welcome as this uncertainty is causing me problems with the exercises. If this is a concealed fifth then this becomes _another_ progression of voices that I should try to avoid however if this is isn't a concealed fifth then there must be something about concealed fifths that I don't understand.

Finally, I am aware that parallel and concealed fifths and octaves are often considered acceptable these days but I want to understand the traditional rules correctly so that I am aware when I am deliberately breaking them.


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## Leandro Gardini (Nov 18, 2006)

I don´t know exactly the term useds in english but I´l try to explain...I know Tchaikovsky book very well and besides for the fact that he explains everything in a extremely simple way, the rules of this and any other book never change!!!
You can approach to a fith or octave by parallel motion provided that one of the voices doens´t skip...this is what happen in the example 24 between soprano and tenor...soprano skip but tenor does not, so, this is not canceled fith...it´s better explained in the next chapter, see example of page 18!!!
Sorry, it´s dificult for me to explain tecnical things in other language but I hope it´s understandable :smile: !!!


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## sbkp (Nov 18, 2006)

bluejay @ Sat Nov 18 said:


> My question is this: Doesn't the solution itself contain a concealed fifth? The E and top C voices moving to D and A respectively. I've added some lines in cyan to highlight where I mean on the stave.



E to C = minor 6th
D to A = perfect 5th


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## bluejay (Nov 18, 2006)

Leo, I'm sure you understand the situation however I can't quite get your explanation. What exactly do you mean by skip? Do you mean move by more than a scale step?

Sbkp, this isn't an open parallel fifth I'm discussing, it's a concealed fifth. Two voices move in similar motion and end in a fifth interval. Their starting interval does not have to be a fifth.


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## Leandro Gardini (Nov 18, 2006)

I think my explanation wasn´t understandable!!!

"Doesn't the solution itself contain a concealed fifth?"

No, because tenor is not skiping (E to D)!!!


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## José Herring (Nov 18, 2006)

Technically it is a hidden 5th, but Tchaikovsky was a practical musician. Avoiding them in the case of progressing by seconds would lead to some pretty intense skips in all upper parts which would sound very weird. This is a case of the rules of counterpoint going against the reality of practice.

Jose


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## sbkp (Nov 18, 2006)

bluejay @ Sat Nov 18 said:


> Sbkp, this isn't an open parallel fifth I'm discussing, it's a concealed fifth. Two voices move in similar motion and end in a fifth interval. Their starting interval does not have to be a fifth.



Gotcha. I was just following the blue lines.

I'm kind of a theory n00b, but isn't the issue with moving in _parallel_ fifths or octaves? That move isn't parallel, even though there is a fifth in each chord. If you prohibit that, wouldn't you make it impossible to move between any two chords with a fifth?


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## bluejay (Nov 18, 2006)

Stefan, there is an issue with moving parallel fifths but there is also an issue with hidden fifths whereby two voices move into a fifth. 

There are many ways to avoid this from becoming an issue but the obvious one is to keep one voice the same in both chords. I'm sure others can explain it better.


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## Scott Rogers (Nov 18, 2006)

..........


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## sbkp (Nov 18, 2006)

Well, I can only say based on the pages you've scanned, as I don't have the book. But his first (incorrect) solution is very different than the second solution.

Section 22:
Bass moves C2 to D2 and D2 to C2

Section 23:
Introduces contrary motion by moving C3 to D2 and D2 to C3

While this is contrary motion, the octave skip in the bass doesn't remove the fact that there are still parallel octaves and fifths. In both cases:

Over the C, Bass -> Alto = 5th, Bass to Soprano = Octave
Over the D, Bass -> Alto = 5th, Bass to Soprano = Octave

But in section 23, while there is an octave of space added between the tenor and bass voices, that doesn't change the fact that they're parallel, it only hides it.

So in section 24, by changing all the upper voices into contrary motion, you have:

Over the C, Bass -> Alto = 5th, Bass to Soprano = Octave
Over the D, Bass -> Alto = 3rd, Bass to Soprano = 5th

Problem solved, at least in my book.

BTW, I'll just put in a plug here for EIS, which provides an ever-so-simple, elegant way to always get this "right."

- Stefan


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## bluejay (Nov 18, 2006)

Thank you Scott I think I understand you.


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## Leandro Gardini (Nov 18, 2006)

BlueJay...sorry, only now I saw your reply asking what I mean by "skip"...well, I think Scott has explained it in a very nice way, but only to complement what I was saying, I mean skip when the voice moves an interval greater than seconds (thirds, fourth and so on)...actually in portuguese when the voice moves in seconds we say it is "graus conjuntos" but I don´t know how to say that in English...so, you may think that skips are all the intervals except unissono and seconds!!!
If you are begining to study harmony I suggest not studing the Tchaikovsky because it´s very simple and leave to desire some important explanations...I would suggest the Piston harmony that is very detailed in the explanations with lots of examples - but becareful, don´t download the old version that is available in the net for free...buy the newest version that is way much better than the old one!!!
I like this Tchaikovsky book, but as I said, it´s not good someone that is learning for the firt time...I use it only as a complement in the school where I teach!!!
Tchaikovsky taught harmony in the Moscou Conservatory for 15 years and I believe he was a great teacher there, but unfortunalety his book doens´t reflect half of his conducting voice knowledge!!!


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## Patrick de Caumette (Nov 18, 2006)

sbkp @ Sat Nov 18 said:


> BTW, I'll just put in a plug here for EIS, which provides an ever-so-simple, elegant way to always get this "right."
> Stefan



Stephan, if you look at example 24: Tchaikovsky's solution to the parallel fifth issue, you'll notice that it is exactly what you would get by applying EIS...
Spud did his homework well!


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## sbkp (Nov 18, 2006)

PdC,

Yeah, I know. That's why I said that


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## SvK (Nov 22, 2006)

Bluejay....guys.....

Concerning Parallel Fifths....I know it's considered "bad form" to use them.

But one of my favorite devices is to have a tritone in the bass with the 3d an octave higher....and then move parallel.

I've posted an example.......First 8 bars, I hide them behind the counterpoint, Next 8bars with melody, and last 8bars exposed......I know it's bad form but in the bass it sounds great to me....I just love doing it.

Thoughts?

Click on "Parallel_5ths_Galore"

http://homepage.mac.com/WebObjects/FileSharing.woa/wa/default?user=svonkampen&templatefn=FileSharing1.html&xmlfn=TKDocument.1.xml&sitefn=RootSite.xml&aff=consumer&cty=US&lang=en (http://homepage.mac.com/WebObjects/File ... US&amp;lang=en)


SvK


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## Leandro Gardini (Nov 22, 2006)

Actually there´s no bad form today...when we study harmony it´s important to study how the composers used to think since barroque time...as you understand how it was thougth in each time you are going to realise how different the harmony can sound following all the rules, some, or even none of them...than you have different styles to conscious write instead of only what sounds good in your trials :wink: !!!
Vaughan Williams was one of the firsts to explore the effects of the 5th parallels and worth studing how he sounded different from older composers, but it´s not only this...you need to understand that he never wrote parallels 5th meaning of two independent voices!!!


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## bluejay (Nov 22, 2006)

Yeah, this thread certainly wasn't meant to discuss the validity of parallel or concealed fifths, I just want to know when I am breaking the rules.

From what I read on Wikipedia (which is never inaccurate :wink: ) it seems that one of the possible reasons for avoiding parallel fifths was to distance classical music from folk music (which used them a lot).

I would imagine that there wouldn't be a problem in film music these days unless trying to specifically pastiche a certain style... like Mozart chamber music or something similar.


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## Dan Selby (Nov 22, 2006)

Hi Steven,

Sounds like you've got 1,5,10 (or -10) (didn't hear a tritone) moving in parallel in the bass. EIS does this a lot with the treble voices moving above with correct voice leading (not parallel).

Oh, and yes, your example sounds lovely!  

Dan



SvK @ Wed Nov 22 said:


> Bluejay....guys.....
> 
> Concerning Parallel Fifths....I know it's considered "bad form" to use them.
> 
> ...


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## Patrick de Caumette (Nov 22, 2006)

SvK @ Wed Nov 22 said:


> Bluejay....guys.....
> 
> Concerning Parallel Fifths....I know it's considered "bad form" to use them.
> 
> ...



Your example sounds very nice. No tritones there! :lol: and some 9ths, #11 are also present...

To really have an argument about the parallel 5ths I think it would be more to the point to offer an example with instruments of more pronounced individuality - a woodwind section for example, where the same instruments combination voices a fifth in consecutive steps (ie: consecutive fifths between clarinet and oboe)
As mentioned earlier, this is entirely different from seeing parallel fifths on paper, but where no instruments combination actually played consecutively fifths (hope I am clear here)


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## sbkp (Nov 22, 2006)

Man, I was all excited to hear 1 b5 10... :(

Parallel 5ths and octaves are awesome, _when you need them_. That's just not when you want to have distinct moving lines.

Besides, there's NOTHING better than power chords! :mrgreen:


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## Patrick de Caumette (Nov 22, 2006)

Oh, believe me, I am not trying to make an argument for or against parallel fifths!

My comment was about setting the ideal circumstances to hear the phenomenum of parallel fifths...

I love power chords too :mrgreen:


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## Dave Connor (Nov 22, 2006)

Parallisms are tricky business. They can be glorious and they can be the most awful thing you ever heard. There are A list film composers who have them in abundance in their music. The effect it has on this listener is to ruin the spell of the film by causing a certain agony. I imagine bad editing and bad directing has a similar effect on those practitioners as well.


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## SvK (Nov 22, 2006)

Guys...

My bad  It was 2 am ... i meant to write "triad....with the 3d an octave above" .....

SvK


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## Patrick de Caumette (Nov 22, 2006)

No worry, your music sounds good and that's all that matters.

The reason why this voicing of T/5th/10th sounds so good is that it respects the way in which the partials of the overtone series are naturally positionned...


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## SvK (Nov 22, 2006)

Patrick....

most kind of you! T/5th/10th pad ...also has another great advantage...........it allows for a big "pocket" of unused notes between 5th and 10th allowing for very effective movement.......appregiated figures (like celli).....while the T/5th ground the whole thing

I've found that this technique provides a huge low-end-that is clean and not muddy with plenty of movement possibilities available still in the lows.

SvK


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## sbkp (Nov 22, 2006)

SvK @ Wed Nov 22 said:


> I've found that this technique provides a huge low-end-that is clean and not muddy.



Exactly for the reason Patrick gave


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## JonFairhurst (Nov 22, 2006)

Actually, a tritone with a 3rd above sounds cool too. Walk it chromatically up and down and the result is very Stravinsky.


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## sbkp (Nov 22, 2006)

JonFairhurst @ Wed Nov 22 said:


> Actually, a tritone with a 3rd above sounds cool too. Walk it chromatically up and down and the result is very Stravinsky.



Stravinsky, you say? I'm doing this in my next piece. :mrgreen:


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## JonFairhurst (Nov 22, 2006)

sbkp @ Wed Nov 22 said:


> Stravinsky, you say? I'm doing this in my next piece. :mrgreen:


Nice to meet you, Igor Podell. 

Recently, I heard that in his day Stravinsky was so famous for the Firebird that a guy on an American train introduced himself saying, "I'm very honored to meet you Mr. Fireberg."


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## sbkp (Nov 22, 2006)

lol....


Hey, I just got a new laptop and gave it the name "stravinsky" just to keep me in a good frame of mind


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## SvK (Nov 22, 2006)

JOn F.....


Question concerning parallel tritone:

Are you saying adding a major or minor 3d ABOVE the tritone (c2 + f#2 + A#2) and moving that parallel /chromatically?

it does sound good...


SvK


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## JonFairhurst (Nov 22, 2006)

SvK @ Wed Nov 22 said:


> Are you saying adding a major or minor 3d ABOVE the tritone (c2 + f#2 + A#2) and moving that parallel /chromatically?


I had gone with C2 + F#2 (Gb2) + Eb3/E3, which gives it more of a melody. The A#2 also works as more of a pad, since it's a tighter chord. 

It has a dreamy sound in the upper registers - and a muddy sound if played too low.


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## SvK (Nov 22, 2006)

Jon...

A parallel- diminished with the m3d an octave above......

got it

SvK


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