# Rite of Spring- greatest orchestral work of the 20th century?



## dcoscina (Feb 6, 2012)

It took me forever to "get" this piece. Literally a couple decades. But now I continue to re-visit and study it. There's just so much to learn and enjoy. 

I must credit Michael Tilson Thomas and his "Keeping Score" episode where he de-constructs this piece to piquing my interest.

Next year Kent Nagano is performing Le Sacre in Toronto with the Montreal Symphony Orchestra and I'm so jazzed to hear it live again. 

http://youtu.be/-7QgPgG4c-g


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## stonzthro (Feb 6, 2012)

Awesome to listen to - even more moving to play! Enjoy, it is one of my favorites too!


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## vicontrolu (Feb 7, 2012)

Didnt know about this website. Its great for me, cause i dont have a classical background and i really want to get into it.

Is there some kind of more generic film/series that makes a quick overview over some centuries? More focused on periods than on composers i mean.

Thanks


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## lamandolina (Feb 7, 2012)

It's a master piece, just like Ravel's "Daphnis & Chloe" wich was the next Diaghilev's ballet, did you know Stravinsky asked Ravel some advices about this piece?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 7, 2012)

For me, it's number 2, after La Mer (1905). Surely in my top 10 pieces of music in general.


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## dedersen (Feb 7, 2012)

Thanks for linking that video. Wonderful walkthrough of an extraordinary piece pf music.


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## AndreP (Feb 7, 2012)

Quite the interesting piece, especially for its time. Though as far as it being the greatest of the 20th century, its hard to say. There have been a lot of other works in the 20th century that have rocked my musical world. But, I guess its down to personal preference. Also, the two piano reduction is a good study and to attempt to play.


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## EthanStoller (Feb 7, 2012)

vicontrolu @ Tue Feb 07 said:


> Is there some kind of more generic film/series that makes a quick overview over some centuries? More focused on periods than on composers i mean.


I love Robert Greenberg's Great Music series for The Teaching Company. Yes, it can get pricey, but they periodically have mega-sales and also you can sometimes find on eBay.
http://www.teach12.com/tgc/professors/p ... aspx?pid=3


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## FredrikJonasson (Feb 7, 2012)

I listened to it here in Gothenburg a couple of years ago, conducted by Gustavo Dudamel - that was quite a show. Yes it's probably the strongest concert memory I have. "Sexy" is indeed a great word for it!

But I actually entered here because I couldn't take the use of the word "best" in the subject! For me that's the most pointless discussion to have. But I guess that was intentional!


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## JohnG (Feb 7, 2012)

Not only is the Rite magnificent as a concert piece, it's genius as a ballet. 

On top of that, every time I listen to it I feel as though I'm hearing an enormous percentage of the rhythmic, harmonic, and sonic (orchestration at the extremes) elements that later became the 20th century sound -- in other words as though the Rite were the "father" of 20th century music.

A couple of obvious exceptions, naturally. The Webern / Stockhausen / Berio crowd don't fit too well (maybe not at all), and in general the Berg, Schoenberg (pre 12 tone), and the rest of the "new Vienna school" really go off somewhere else. As do the Beatles (har har).

But I find it hard to imagine a lot of Debussy and Ravel without the Rite and the other great ballets.

This view of the Rite (and of other composers) I admit is fanciful and no doubt could be ripped stem to stern, but I do think the Rite is the one indispensable piece from the 20th century -- even though it was practically written in the 19th!

Great topic, dcoscina.

Maybe my favourite is still Wozzeck by Berg. Would be tough for me if forced to choose, but obviously the Rite stands in a special place in history.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 7, 2012)

JohnG @ 7/2/2012 said:


> But I find it hard to imagine a lot of Debussy and Ravel without the Rite and the other great ballets.



I think that Debussy and Ravel would have influenced Stravinsky more than the other way around, but I'm no musicologist, that's for sure!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 7, 2012)

Most of Stravinsky is up there for me, not just the Rite. And also Bartok's Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celeste is seat belt music.

But the entire history of film music is 20th century orchestral work, and there might be some pretty good stuff in there if you look hard....


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## David Story (Feb 7, 2012)

Prokofiev, Bartok, Copland, Messiaen, Ligeti, Boulez, Williams, Reich, Horner, Adams, Giacchino, all list Stravinsky as an influence in interviews.

That is a truly great fan base.

Agree with John, The Rite is imitated so often it's really the father of 20th century music.
There's even hiphop that samples it.

Nick, +1 for MFSPC!


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## dcoscina (Feb 7, 2012)

JohnG @ Tue Feb 07 said:


> Not only is the Rite magnificent as a concert piece, it's genius as a ballet.
> 
> 
> Great topic, dcoscina.
> ...



Wozzeck is a superb opera. I think he assimilated serialism far more successfully than Webern and perhaps even moreso than Schoenberg. He was able to use it in a dramatic context to its fullest potential. but I admittedly don't know as much as I should about this movement in Western music history...


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## JohnG (Feb 7, 2012)

Another way of poking at this question is to ask if anyone would propose an alternative to the Rite as the "greatest?" Any candidates?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 7, 2012)

It's time for a cage-fight! :

Debussy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_9HXKRs7II

Strav: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1tn7WJ9lRc

Bartok: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB_PTA4dGws

Stock: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-9tJOwxBN8

Penderecki: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzOb3UhPmig (this one's incredible!)

Scelsi (timbre man): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Oacn2liu5c

Shos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75QHCCpynYY

I say Stockhausen takes it, 'cause he has some universe/cosmic connections he can call on for extra lives...


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 7, 2012)

Now we just need some for Berg, Schönberg, Ives, Satie, Ferneyhough, Murail, Xenakis, Kaija Saariaho, Copland, MAHLER, Takemitsu, Britten, etc, etc.


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## Dave Connor (Feb 7, 2012)

Stravinsky did not consider that early period his best work and was a little chagrined by being constantly identified with it. I agree with him in that his later works are of another, greater order. Not to say I don't love those great works of his youth which were quite an explosion in the world of composition.


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## JohnG (Feb 7, 2012)

I disagree with -- Stravinsky!

His later works may have been of greater intellectual interest, and I am not even at the level of an acolyte, frankly, when it comes to genuine understanding of that material. But I've listened to a lot of his opus (I have a "complete" set plus a bunch of one-off CDs that are duplicate pieces but different performances) and I just don't enjoy much of the later works that he prized so much (except the ones everyone likes like "L'Histoire du Soldat," which doesn't even fit into his favourites, I believe, and also wasn't written that late). 

For example (deep breath in anticipation of scorn, derision), I have heard "Les Noces" performed live and on several recordings -- don't like it. I just don't sit back (or sit up) and find pleasure in it. 

@Ned -- I think I am the only Bartok fan who isn't wild about MFSPC, but I am a fanatic about the Miraculous Mandarin. It's my MFSPC substitute. And the string quartets (and duets, and just about all of it that I've heard).


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## EastWest Lurker (Feb 7, 2012)

David Story @ Tue Feb 07 said:


> Agree with John, The Rite is imitated so often it's really the father of 20th century music.



Yep.


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## Dave Connor (Feb 7, 2012)

Here is a later work that has all the savagery of The Rite but is a symphony and even points towards minimalism. It's not that it's more intellectual in nature but is a more economic, condensed and structured presentation of the composers sensibility. This middle period of Stravinsky is almost nothing but masterpieces.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHdrVA7iwkQ


EDIT: I should add that this period and even this work were copied as much or more in film than The Rite.


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## David Story (Feb 7, 2012)

+1 for proto-metal:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0aTBbNLios&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0aTBbNL ... re=related)

Bartok is the man for chamber strings.

For late Stravinsky, try the Septet. The Gigue is fun.

Great set of performances Ned! 
True about Stock, However, John Williams can channel The Force:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAUVaBFtjfc&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAUVaBFt ... re=related)

For textures, Ligeti is phenomenal:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHYOjSVqXl0[/i]


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## JohnG (Feb 7, 2012)

Dave Connor @ 7th February 2012 said:


> Here is a later work that has all the savagery of The Rite but is a symphony and even points towards minimalism. It's not that it's more intellectual in nature but is a more economic, condensed and structured presentation of the composers sensibility. This middle period of Stravinsky is almost nothing but masterpieces.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHdrVA7iwkQ
> 
> ...




Ok -- that is indeed pretty fun. I will listen to the whole thing. But does it have that raw power of the Rite? It feels far more polished to me and a lot less scary.

@Ned and David S -- are you proposing these pieces as alternative "greatest?"


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## nikolas (Feb 7, 2012)

Academically speaking I think that trying to figure out the 'greatest' work of the 20th century is a rubbish idea...

In a pub (or in vi-control) it's very valid, but I still have trouble nailing 1 single work. Perhaps if we could make it top 3? Then I could also include Bartoks music for strings percussion and celesta and perhaps some Schoenberg (but not sure which one, tbh)...

Influence wise you need to pin down what you're looking at: Film music? Then hands down early Stravisnky. Academic music Schoenberg. The rest Bartok... etc...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 7, 2012)

I don't think there is a greatest, but I'm with David about Stravinsky's chamber music.

The Octet for Winds and Dunbarton Oaks Concerto...and of course L'Histoire du Soldat are all up there for me. Actually I think I like them better than the Rite.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 7, 2012)

This is the shiz:

http://itunes.apple.com/us/album/stravi ... d349377733

Pulcinella isn't the greatest orchestral work of the 20th century, but I love it - when he conducts it rather than someone who makes it too sentimental.


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## bryla (Feb 7, 2012)

Can anyone diagnose the tumor the viola has in the opening seconds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EaU7q3QOdI&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EaU7q3Q ... re=related)


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## JonFairhurst (Feb 7, 2012)

For the 20th Century genre, I'd agree that Rite is at or near the top. However, for the actual Century of the 1900s, my nod goes to The Planets. I rate Firebird highly as well. I find these works more melodic and touching than most 20th Century (genre) music, but more progressive and developed than most Romantic music. One can hear 20th Century elements just starting to emerge.

I enjoy 20th Century music, but taken to its logical, experimental conclusion, it risks becoming disconnected and random. Moderate those tendencies with Romantic values and the results can greater than either single genre.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 7, 2012)

Tumor.

That's an excellent documentary, brya. Thanks for the link!


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## David Story (Feb 7, 2012)

Thinking of an orchestra as a giant percussion instrument is still cool. The harmony is unique, you can recognize the Rite by hearing a few chords on piano.
And those live effects are used by orchestrators every day.

@John, those are pieces I like, timeless inspiration. The best in a decade, maybe, not in a century.

Thanks for the documentary link David and Bryla, fun stuff!


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## dcoscina (Feb 8, 2012)

Rosignal is also an amazing piece. I'm deriving a lot of inspiration for my own ballet based on the Asian writing in this


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## sherief83 (Feb 8, 2012)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Feb 07 said:


> It's time for a cage-fight! :
> 
> Stock: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-9tJOwxBN8
> 
> I say Stockhausen takes it, 'cause he has some universe/cosmic connections he can call on for extra lives...



I can barely get into Schoenberg's Seriel music and I do have appreciation for Penderecki but this composition is just so unbearable and I just can't take it serious without laughing at all the confused musicians (minus the conductors who are acting like this is music). 

How do you approach such work or even attempt to understand it? is it even Music at all? To me it isn't Music. Its just exploration of instruments in a non musical way.


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## RyBen (Feb 8, 2012)

I absolutely loathed that piece.  

I'll admit that from an orchestration perspective, his textures are genius. It's just that his music isn't very accessible. I LOVE dissonance, but I need there to be some harmonic accessibility to the piece. For what the piece is, it's great I suppose, but it's certainly not a style that I enjoy listening to.

Having said that, I still think that there's a ton to learn from the piece DUE to its unconventional style and variety.


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## JohnG (Feb 8, 2012)

A wild piece (the Stockhausen); multiple conductors, different groups of musicians wearing different coloured outfits. Pretty fun, even if the music is a bit bewildering to follow. Didn't like the electric guitar in the piece as it felt completely out of place.


Definitely not the Rite, but an interesting exploration anyway.


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## stonzthro (Feb 8, 2012)

As for the still living composers, Joseph Schwantner is one of my favorites - and the pieces of his I really like are all 20th century.


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## JimmyPoppa (Feb 16, 2012)

EthanStoller @ Tue Feb 07 said:


> vicontrolu @ Tue Feb 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Is there some kind of more generic film/series that makes a quick overview over some centuries? More focused on periods than on composers i mean.
> ...



+1 On Professor Greenberg's courses. Best overviews I know of. The 'How to Listen to and Understand Great Music' is a superb overview of classical music era's and genre's. I have most of the rest of his courses as well. They're all great.

The Teaching Company has sales ALL the time. If something is too expensive, just wait a few weeks and they will have a 70/80% off sale shortly. Definitely and excellent resources.

Be Well,

Jimmy


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## david robinson (Feb 16, 2012)

who cares?
and without them , where the hell would music be today?
j.


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## caseyjames (Feb 17, 2012)

I'm another in the La Mer/Rite camp. I've read tons of books on both, studied the score and listened countless times.

I personally like Les Noces for being so insanely bold -- It took a long time to appreciate, but his later periods seem to lack extra musical atmosphere, or what he probably condemned as 'meaning'

It was the atmosphere of the rite that tugged me through so many books and publications. I understand that the techniques he used in later works are very similar to what he was doing in Rite, though disguised deftly, but the topics of some of those later works are pretentious as all can be.

While he believed music could have no intrinsic meaning, the association created by the content of all his works -- weddings, military etc all evoke specific feelings and expectations. Music exists in the mind of the listener, and Its not possible to prevent the mind from creating its own associations when storing information, association is the minds stock and trade.

The Firebird, Petrucia, The Rite and even the Nightengale all have great opportunities to establish unfamiliar atmospheres and they all do it deftly.

The subject matter in many of his later works, is far closer to Reality TV... Les Noces could be the Kardashian wedding. In denying that music had any meaning beyond its own formal construction I think he barred himself for tapping those emotions that he was uniquely tuned into. Only in the religious works did he rekindle some of those feelings.

I wonder if he was born later, when academic critical culture had less sway, where he would have gone in the practice of pairing invention with evocation -- which is his truly distinguishing characteristic.

Wheres my Oiija


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## Rob (Feb 17, 2012)

caseyjames @ 17th February 2012 said:


> I'm another in the La Mer/Rite camp. I've read tons of books on both, studied the score and listened countless times.
> 
> I personally like Les Noces for being so insanely bold -- It took a long time to appreciate, but his later periods seem to lack extra musical atmosphere, or what he probably condemned as 'meaning'
> 
> ...




All very true imo


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