# Bmi vs. sesac vs. ascap



## Blackster (Sep 3, 2016)

Hi guys,

I know this topic has been brought up a few times over the years and of course, I did a search through old threads before I decided to create this one. 

In essence, I just have a few questions and I hope to get concrete answers from some PRO members here!

1) Normally, if you become a member of any PRO you HAVE to register all work you do during your membership. Meaning that you are not allowed to offer royalty-free music when you are a member of a PRO. I talked to Richard Bellis some years ago and he confirmed that this is true for ASCAP (maybe it has changed in the meantime?). So, is this also true for BMI and SESAC? 

2) How do you become a member of SESAC anyway? This is from their website: "SESAC requires potential affiliates or their representatives to have a pre-existing relationship with a member of the Creative Services Department. At this time, SESAC is not taking unsolicited affiliation applications." (source: https://www.sesac.com/WritersPublishers/affiliate.aspx) ... Does this mean that I have to have a friend that is already affiliated with them?

3) As I am located in Austria, Europe, how easy is the process of becoming a member of a PRO based in the US? 

Many thanks for your help in advance!


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## chillbot (Sep 3, 2016)

If you are giving up your royalties does it matter what name you give them up under? Use a different name?


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## Blackster (Sep 3, 2016)

@chillbot: It does matter because ghost-writing is not allowed by the law in Europe! That means, if I want to collect credits, I have to give my real name to it. If I decide to register with an artist name, then I have to give my real name in the moment of registering. So, in general, according to the law in Europe and also Austria, that's not possible.


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## chillbot (Sep 3, 2016)

I was actually curious enough about it to send an email to my contact at BMI... but it's a holiday here until Tuesday so maybe I'd have a definitive answer for you in a couple days.


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## Blackster (Sep 3, 2016)

Great, many thanks! Looking forward to that. In case you don't wanna post the answer in public, please let me know via PM. I appreciate it!


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Sep 3, 2016)

Have you checked that you're not already affiliated with any of them? I don't know how the PROs in Austria work but when I registered with SOCAN in Canada I had to pick whether I'd be under ASCAP or BMI in the US. Having said that, I have a friend in Sweden who registered separately from his PRO there so maybe it's common in Europe for them to not automatically assign you to one in the US. I believe he just contacted ASCAP and then there was a form he filled out for registering outside of the US.


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## Gerd Kaeding (Sep 3, 2016)

Blackster said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I know this topic has been brought up a few times over the years and of course, I did a search through old threads before I decided to create this one.
> 
> ...





Hi ,

concerning 1) :
If you want to sell royalty free music you cannot join any PRO . Because this is what being a member of a PRO is all about : collecting royalties .
( _This is true for ASCAP , BMI , AKM , GEMA , SACEM , PRS , SIAE ....... etc._ .)


concerning 2) :
if you or your representatives don't have any close ties to other SESAC members , you'd better be already quite successful as songwriter / composer , because the chances are high that this fact will get you into SESAC .

- - -

Some other thoughts:

You can only be member of one PRO , so it is not possible being a member of ASCAP and a european PRO at the same time .
(_ In theory this could be possible if you exclude certain territories in your contract with a PRO , however this situation can become very complicated, so you rather forget about that …_ ) .
Becoming a member of a european PRO (like the AKM in Austria , the german GEMA or the french SACEM) makes it quite difficult to switch to another PRO ( ... _if this makes sense at all_ ... ) at a later point in time, while it might be more practical to switch between ASCAP and BMI in the U.S. .


In general I’d say it makes sense to join a PRO in that particular territory where your work gets broadcasted / performed the most. So if your stuff is currently broadcastet 90% of the time in the U.S. it is indeed not a bad idea to join ASCAP/BMI . However , are you sure that this situation is the same three years from now ?


Therefore , ...


a)
There is no perfect PRO . This also means that you have to communicate with them , usually when certain royalties are missing or not paid with the correct royalty share . So it is a good idea to choose a PRO that is able and willing to communicate ( ... by mail AND by phone ... ) and solve issues , in a language you are able to speak/understand !


b)
If you choose a PRO which is not located in your country of residence you should also think of how to receive the money from that PRO.
Therefore you should find out if you need a bank account in the country where the PRO is located , or if they are willing to do international banking, and if the money transfer to your local bank is a free (!) service .
If 'yes' , you should find out if your local bank is taking a fee for receiving and changing a foreign currency ( English Pound or U.S. Dollar to EURO , etc. ).

Example : you are located in Austria , but you decided to join ASCAP , and now you get your first ASCAP money , let's say 200 $ US . Your current austrian bank is charging a fee of 20.-Euro for receiving and exchanging the Dollars into Euros. You might change your local bank to avoid this , so ask your local bank how they handle the transfer of foreign currencies. ( This exchange rate fee is also true when using a Paypal account ) .


c)
Another thing you should keep in mind is "taxes" . Yes .
Make sure you are prepared to deal with this aspect when your next check is 15000.-$ from ASCAP . You - as an austrian citizen - receive money from a foreign country's PRO, and depending on the involved countries you might have to fill out certain documents for the finance department abroad properly beforehand ( Double Tax Agreement ).
You should ask a local tax lawyer how to approach this the best way.


Aspects b. and c. are not relevant when you stay with a local PRO.
Unfortunately , the downside when staying with a local PRO is that you will receive the royalties at least one and a half year later compared to a direct payment from the foreign PRO ( ... assuming that your music was broadcastet in the foreign PRO's territory ... ).


Best,
Gerd


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## chillbot (Sep 3, 2016)

Completely unofficial response from someone fairly high up in the LA BMI office, in regards to selling to royalty-free libraries:

"Always the right of the copyright holder to agree to any deal he wants. Only not allowed in France to the best of my knowledge. "


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## erica-grace (Sep 3, 2016)

Blackster said:


> Meaning that you are not allowed to offer royalty-free music when you are a member of a PRO.



Not true of ASCAP and BMI. See below


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## erica-grace (Sep 3, 2016)

Gerd Kaeding said:


> If you want to sell royalty free music you cannot join any PRO .



Incorrect!  (when you say "any")

True of some, like PRS (U.K.), but not ASCAP and BMI. Can't comment on SESAC, however.


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## chillbot (Sep 3, 2016)

I have a bunch of friends that just switched to SESAC for one reason or another... it didn't sound difficult to join. However (and I may just be making stuff up here) if I were not in the US and looking to join a PRO I wouldn't consider SESAC... it would be either ASCAP or BMI, I feel they are way more established and better at tracking internationals.


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## Jdiggity1 (Sep 3, 2016)

chillbot said:


> I have a bunch of friends..


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## chillbot (Sep 3, 2016)

*bunch*

[buhnch] 

http://vi-control.net/community/source-synonyms (Synonyms)
http://vi-control.net/community/source-example-sentences (Examples)
http://vi-control.net/community/source-word-origin (Word Origin)
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun
1.
a connected group; cluster:
a bunch of grapes.
2.
a group of things:
a bunch of papers.
3.
Informal. a group of people:
They're a fine bunch of students.
4.
a knob; lump; protuberance.

OK I lied but I know 2 people who switched. I should have said "a couple" instead of making it sound like I have so many friends... :(


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## Blackster (Sep 4, 2016)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> Have you checked that you're not already affiliated with any of them? I don't know how the PROs in Austria work but when I registered with SOCAN in Canada I had to pick whether I'd be under ASCAP or BMI in the US. Having said that, I have a friend in Sweden who registered separately from his PRO there so maybe it's common in Europe for them to not automatically assign you to one in the US. I believe he just contacted ASCAP and then there was a form he filled out for registering outside of the US.



Yes, I know that for sure because I'm not a member of any PRO yet  ...


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## Blackster (Sep 4, 2016)

Gerd Kaeding said:


> Hi ,
> 
> concerning 1) :
> If you want to sell royalty free music you cannot join any PRO . Because this is what being a member of a PRO is all about : collecting royalties .
> ...



Good points, Gerd. Thanks! I'll have those on my agenda already.


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## Blackster (Sep 4, 2016)

erica-grace said:


> Not true of ASCAP and BMI. See below



I don't see something below!  ... do you know this just by word or is there anything on the ASCAP's website I have missed?


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## Gerd Kaeding (Sep 4, 2016)

erica-grace said:


> Incorrect!  (when you say "any")
> 
> True of some, like PRS (U.K.), but not ASCAP and BMI. Can't comment on SESAC, however.



Could you please provide a more detailed info on that ? ( I don't mean this in an offensive way !)


Agreed, in general there are some exceptions , but this has nothing to do with "royalty free" music:
The licensing of _original dramatic works_ ( _Opera , Musical , certain Concertwork_ ) is in the hand of the author and/or his publisher to be negotiated exclusively alone. . This is true for european PRO's ( GEMA , etc. ... ) and ASCAP/BMI .

Aside from that , if I'm not totally mistaken , BMI does _not_ allow its active registered members to offer royalty free music. BMI rather requires that its member _has_ to register all work with them that is printed/performed/bradcastet/synchronized during the period of membership (!), even when the work was created prior to the period of membership .
And reading paragraph 1 of ASCAP's membership agreement tells me something different from what you said above, too.

But , I'm not a native-english speaker , and therefore might not see the obvious in that particular text . So , just out of interest : Can you provide a link to the ASCAP/BMI website ( _or any other official source _) where they mention this clearly ?

The only thing that I can imagine might be different with ASCAP/BMI compared to european PRO's is that ASCAP/BMI may allow to exclude some _more_ music for certain _genres_ in _general_ , additional to the above mentioned music for dramatic works (Opera, ...) ?? Music for Trailers or Games comes into my mind ... (?) ... . Maybe you are referring to this ?

The whole thing gets even more complicated when you consider that european PRO's like SACEM or GEMA - contrary to ASCAP or BMI - collect both the Performance Royalties as well as the Mechanical Royalties ( ... a fact that , by the way , makes it a lot easier for the composer to claim all his royalties ... ).



Best,
Gerd


EDIT:
It's always good to learn something new ... the music business is an untamed beast ... and we composers have to ride on it ... arrrrghhh ...


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## Blackster (Sep 4, 2016)

Actually, this information is key to my decision with what PRO I go. Up to now I have build my business around royalty-free music which works great. So, I don't want to remove this income stream just because I'm working on a couple of movies right now. The idea is to build a new stream and keep the old one alive and healthy ... 

The easiest way is always to go with your local PRO but I know for sure that AKM does not allow that type of business I'm aiming for. So I'm looking for another solution.


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## Blackster (Sep 4, 2016)

Btw, there might be another solution to the German GEMA in the very near future. I'm sure, some (or most) of you have heard about this, "C3S"! https://www.c3s.cc/en/

They are NOT a PRO yet but they will file an application quite soon. And funny enough that they advertise with what I'm looking for! :D ... I'm not sure how long it will take them to actually become a legal PRO but they seem to be a great alternative to GEMA in the German-speaking area. Just throwing this out here.


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## SDCP (Sep 4, 2016)

Gerd Kaeding said:


> You can only be member of one PRO , so it is not possible being a member of ASCAP and a european PRO at the same time .
> (_ In theory this could be possible if you exclude certain territories in your contract with a PRO , however this situation can become very complicated, so you rather forget about that …_ ) .



This is not accurate. I am a member of ASCAP and GEMA. You simply have to define to each PRO which territories they will cover. For example, ASCAP collects my royalties for Canada, USA, and Mexico, and GEMA collects for "rest of world."


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## Gerd Kaeding (Sep 4, 2016)

SDCP said:


> This is not accurate. I am a member of ASCAP and GEMA. You simply have to define to each PRO which territories they will cover. For example, ASCAP collects my royalties for Canada, USA, and Mexico, and GEMA collects for "rest of world."


Yes , I know that you can exclude territories , this is why I added "( In theory, etc. ... )" .


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## babylonwaves (Sep 5, 2016)

ASCAP allows you selectively register songs, so you can release royalty free music and work on games. the registration is easy for europeans as well. ASCAP and BMI are very similar. the differences, especially in regards of your royalties you need to compare on a case basis depending on what you work focuses on (film, TV vs. network TV, records etc). in any case, both collect worldwide so you don't need another PRO to cover this entire planet. i've changed from GEMA to ASCAP so time ago and so far I didn't regret it at all.


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## Blackster (Sep 5, 2016)

@babylonwaves: Interesting. Some years ago they didn't allow that either. I read a few times through their agreement, which can be found online: http://www.ascap.com/~/media/files/pdf/join/ascap-writer-agreement.pdf 

Tbh, I really don't find the passage where they make clear that this is allowed now. Would anybody mind to point me to that passage real quick? 

Many thanks!


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## Blackster (Oct 4, 2016)

Ok, finally, here is an official statement directly from ASCAP: *"Please note that once you become a member of ASCAP it is up to you to decide the works you would like to register for ASCAP to collect royalties on."
*
I just wanna leave this here in case anybody else is in a similar situation as I am!


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## Desire Inspires (Oct 4, 2016)

There is a massive difference between a RF library not requiring its clients to report usage to the PROS and a library requiring a composer to sign away those rights.

There are lots of ways a RF work performance could be picked up and paid out by a PRO even without any reporting involved. Fingerprinting, YouTube Content ID, etc.


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## scottbuckley (Oct 4, 2016)

Regarding royalty-free music - how about Creative Commons licenses like CC-Attribution-Non Commercial, or even CC-Attribution? CC licenses are royalty-free when used within the scope of the license (for instance, in non-commercial projects or if attribution is given etc.). However, in cases where these restrictions aren't met (commercial project, or use in advertising where attribution cannot be given), the license then falls back to standard copyright (and hence, no longer royalty-free). How do PROs feel about this? CC music is so prolific that it isn't really an edge case anymore...

-s


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## Øyvind Moe (Oct 13, 2016)

TONO, the Norwegian PRO, recently (1/1/2016) introduced a provision whereby you can register selected works as library music. These will still be subject to public perfomance management by TONO, but they will be excempt from the usual handling of mechanical rights (sync/copy) by the Nordic Copyright Bureau. Do any other PROs have this kind of arrangement? Before this, you were required to either sign away ALL your licensing management for ALL your work, or not have an agreement with them at all.


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## Aceituna (Nov 4, 2019)

SDCP said:


> This is not accurate. I am a member of ASCAP and GEMA. You simply have to define to each PRO which territories they will cover. For example, ASCAP collects my royalties for Canada, USA, and Mexico, and GEMA collects for "rest of world."



So, do you have to register all of your works in both asociations?
Is it worthy enough to be in more thyan one register?


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## Aceituna (Nov 5, 2019)

chillbot said:


> Completely unofficial response from someone fairly high up in the LA BMI office, in regards to selling to royalty-free libraries:
> 
> "Always the right of the copyright holder to agree to any deal he wants. Only not allowed in France to the best of my knowledge. "



Does it mean that BMI allows to sell royalty-free music?


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