# The Reality of Motion and Breath Controllers



## SchnookyPants (Nov 20, 2018)

Looking for a little guidance, here.

A lot of things look great on paper (or should I say "on line"), but once you get them home and get your hands on them... well... I really hate buyer's remorse.

It's time to expand my control options. I've been looking at the Leap Motion Controller @ $80 usd, and am VERY interested in the TEControl BBC2 @ approx. $225 usd. The BBC2 is especially attractive, as I frequently need to keep both hands on the keyboard. 

Here are my initial concerns:

Leap Motion Controller - Is there any 'false triggering' or other finicky behavior to be aware of?

BBC2 Breath and Bite Controller - It sounds cool, what with the two axis of head movement thrown-in. But is this old man going to end up with a stiff neck from all the gyrations involved?

If anyone has either of these items, I would really appreciate you sharing your real-world experiences using them.

Thanks


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## pmcrockett (Nov 20, 2018)

Leap Motion Controller (with GECO) -- It tracks pretty consistently for me. It'll occasionally get confused about which hand you're using, but there are options in GECO for which hand it tracks and how it differentiates them that help reduce this. I find it best when moving my hand to keep an eye on the meters, because it's easy to run my hand outside the tracking area by accident.

BBC2 -- I use it mostly for the breath control, which works very well. I haven't found the motion control particularly useful because it's both hard to be precise and involves a lot of awkward head movement. The mouthpiece used for the bite controller is hard plastic and I find it uncomfortable and hard to use accurately. They now sell a soft plastic version of the mouthpiece that can be swapped in that I haven't tried yet, but I expect it's better.


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## dflood (Nov 20, 2018)

I tested the Leap Motion controller with the configuration described in the link below and it worked fine. Unfortunately while the Reaktor Serenade violin sounded quite nice, it lacked some features such as polyphony for double stops and extended bowing. That limited its usefulness for me. However, I had no issues with the leap controller. It does require an entire hand while performing, similar to track pads, etc., so if you are just using it for expression maybe it would be more efficient to use breath or foot controls. Lately I have taken to just drawing in the expression and other articulations rather than trying for the perfect ‘live’ performance.

http://blog.leapmotion.com/playing-a-virtual-violin-with-serenade-geco-midi/


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## ptram (Nov 20, 2018)

SchnookyPants said:


> BBC2 Breath and Bite Controller - It sounds cool, what with the two axis of head movement thrown-in. But is this old man going to end up with a stiff neck from all the gyrations involved?


The head movement detection is quite sensible, so you don't have to do large movements to make it work. However, it is something you have to get comfortable with. Never tested live, but it should be really cool on stage.

Breath and bite detection are very natural, and work very well.

Paolo


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## SchnookyPants (Nov 20, 2018)

Well, thank you all for the opinions. It seems as experiences with the required head-motion w/ the BBC2 are at opposite ends of the spectrum. "Awkward movement" to "quite sensible... no large movements required". And about the same range of opinion on the bite controller.

Hmmm... I should've known this was going to go just like feedback on keyboard actions - a very personal thing. That makes perfect sense.

Let's go back to Leap Motion. Does it _have_ to be your hand? Why couldn't you use your head?


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## dflood (Nov 20, 2018)

So far there are only a few MIDI apps for Leap Motion controllers like Geco and Aero and I think they all use hand gesture recognition.


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## SchnookyPants (Nov 20, 2018)

Dflood - Thanks for providing that link. Wow, there's a lot of good info there - 'still drinking it all up.


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## Garry (Nov 20, 2018)

I have the TECbreath controller and Leap Motion. The breath controller is something I use all the time, but for me the Leap Motion is a party trick that looks cool but isn't used in practice. 

For the breath controller, I use all 4 dimensions: nod, tilt, breath and bite. You don't need exaggerated motion, because you can calibrate it with the driver that comes with it, so you can precisely tailor the min/max and the slope. The bite doesn't have a lot of dynamic range, but you use it on something that doesn't require it (I typically use bite for pitch bend). I've seen a couple of YouTube videos with guys performing all kinds of enormous head movements, which is totally unnecessary. For me, the breath controller really shines with libraries like Audio Modeling. If you check out their videos, for example watch the ones on the flute by Gerald Peter (https://audiomodeling.com/solo-woodwinds/swam-flutes/)  

Absolutely amazing, and I'm no virtuoso player, but this is definitely achievable. The video that convinced me on both sample modeling (now Audio Modeling) and breath controllers were videos by Gomez Massetti. For example, in this one he uses both flute and trumpet and it sounds incredible: )

My typical set up for my Audio Modeling instruments are:

Saxophone/Trumpet:
- Expression (breath)
- Growl (tilt)
- Vibrato depth (nod)
- Pitch bend (bite)

Violin/Cello:
- Expression (breath)
- Vibrato depth (nod)
- Bow pressure (foot pedal)
- Vibrato intensity (Nanokontrol2 fader)
- Portamento rate (Nanokontrol2 fader)
- Vibrato rate (Nanokontrol2 fader)

The other way I use the breath controller is when using 2 keyboards: I control expression for 1 keyboard with an expression pedal, and the other with breath controller.

I've seen similar videos which are impressive for the Leap Motion - I personally don't find it to be as accurate, and not as intuitive. The main drawback for me is that when playing, I find it difficult to keep my hand in the position it needs to be to produce the signal for the device for long periods. My hand will wander, left/right, or up/down, and I spend more time concentrating on this, and remember the relationship of the gestures to articulations than what I'm playing. I think that would improve with practice, but I also found my arm fatigues trying to hold it in position for long periods, so that's tended to demotivate me learning this. So, in all, I just don't find it intuitive like the breath controller, but man is it impressive to be able to control CC values with a flick of the hand in the air - makes for a great party trick, but isn't much more than a gimmick for me.


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## ptram (Nov 21, 2018)

When shopping for a breath controller, I would also consider the base model from TEC. It's just breath, with adjustable sensitivity and position of the mouthpiece. Very light to wear. I like it a lot.

Paolo


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## gamma-ut (Nov 21, 2018)

SchnookyPants said:


> Well, thank you all for the opinions. It seems as experiences with the required head-motion w/ the BBC2 are at opposite ends of the spectrum. "Awkward movement" to "quite sensible... no large movements required". And about the same range of opinion on the bite controller.



If you've used the Yamaha BCx or Akai wind controller, the TEC hard mouthpiece doesn't seem that unusual. Also, you've got a lot of control over the curves in the control app TEC supplies, so you can tune things like head movement - such as restricting the range of movement needed to get a CC to move. You can basically set up a strong nod almost as an on-off switch, for example.


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## SchnookyPants (Nov 21, 2018)

I guess I'll take it that you do NOT have to make extreme head gestures to effect control change via head movement. I have seen videos wherein the guy looks dangerously close to breaking his own neck with crazy-extreme gyrations, and I was wondering whether that's absolutely necessary, or is this guy just a drama queen (sort of the Alvin Lee of Breath Controller demonstrators)?

_O-Kaaay... O-Kaaayyyy..._ I am finally convinced that this is what I need (thanks a _LOT!_ Another gadget...).

Now, is the only place to purchase this BBC2 directly from the manufacturer? Because I seem to recall seeing mentioned a two-three week delivery time. So if that is indeed the case, Santa had better get on this like... _P-R-O-N-T-O!_


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## justthere (Nov 21, 2018)

You won’t be sorry about the TEControl device. The motion is absolutely intuitive. The above post from Garry doesn’t say this specifically, but one of the most important though subtle humanizing things to do is assigning vibrato >speed< to an axis - in my case nod. For me since my head is in mostly the same position when playing except when I sort of unconsciously “emote”, and since chin-up equals intensity in my mind and chin down means decreasing intensity, it’s something I don’t really even think about. For SWAM solo strings it’s absolutely amazing. 

I have a leapmotion as well, and at the moment it’s about as useful as the d-beam on my old Handsonic, which is to say not incredibly. But in fairness to the platform, one has to learn to use it and have the correct environment for it light-wise and so on. Those aren’t counts against it - it’s just that it demands something from the user, as any new instrument would, and for some reason people aren’t willing to give it the same weight as, say, if they bought a pedal steel guitar after playing traditional electric. When I have time to devote to it I’m hoping it will become a bigger part of my process - but right now the BC2 just plain works when I use it. (Also, if your computer can handle it, try making a section out of a solo SWAM instrument, like Cello, with spread, small detunings and some randomization, and play that with the BC2, and you will never want to play a string melody on anything else.). Have fun.


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## rdieters (Dec 20, 2018)

ptram said:


> Never tested live, but it should be really cool on stage.



Yes, indeed!


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## chimuelo (Dec 20, 2018)

Leap is fantastic, a great way to add visuals to a performance too.
I use a Physis K4 with multiple USB I/O as well as 10 x MIDI Ports and 8 x physical controllers via 1/4” TS/TRS.
I too Ned both hands but it’s really cool using Leap to add visual.

Which leads me to another question here.
In Nashville there a a fantastic PixelFLEX LED manufacturer.
Before I go and buy a giant backdrop size screen, are there any applications that sync video to BPM as this is an experimental dance/ EDM project I’m hoping I can add to my contracting efforts.

Leap could be the tap/sync input, or my K4. 
Hoping somebody here has done some Video work and can steer me in the right direction.

Thanks


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## danbo (Dec 23, 2018)

For breath controller as mentioned in another thread I have the hornberg hb1 which is the best in the market for such things. A bit more expensive but you get what you pay for - this is top drawer.

FWIW I don't think motion tracking makes sense. I'm a orchestral wind player (lifelong), the history of moving around while playing is interesting. Back in the old days we didn't move around too much. In my experience it doesn't add to the music but takes away. A bit of motion sure, swaying into the phrase and such not, but in recent years I see a lot more gymnastics.

This takes concentration and focus away from the music in my experience, but I think people do it because of telefphoto cameras and concert recording. The Digital Concert Hall for example from Berlin Phil - these guys move around a lot which never used to happen. Also there's a lot more care paid to their 'do - hairdo, clothing and appearance. Obviously because they're getting up close camera work.

The worst is the poor soloists. People expect pianists to be acrobats. Some pull it off OK, but I can tell poor Hélène Grimaud is doing something that doesn't work for her. Even Evengy Kissen - he used to be a rock but now he obviously is forcing himself to move around. Looks stilted IMO, but tone deaf audience members expect it. I'm also a serious pianist, and there's a precise choreography to classical piano (e.g. Taubman method or others). Trying to show people you're 'whatever', passionate, by throwing your body around is stupid.

Anyhow, if it works for you great, but I won't touch it as it's inimical to real music IMO. FWIW.


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## justthere (Dec 23, 2018)

Coming from the point of view of a composer - I think the point of motion tracking is not recreating the movements of a performing musician, but is a way of adding nuance. A keyboard with a breath controller is not an oboe, so there’s no reason to emulate that physicality or extend the metaphor into absurdity - and also, a motion tracker wouldn’t try to sense vibrato from the natural motion of an oboist - it would sense motion and position that was more intentional to modulate a controller value. As someone who likes to be able to control things in real time, I prefer a controller that allows more parameters to be meaningfully controlled, which is why I use the TEControl controller - I have four different parameters I can control in differing amounts simultaneously. I was all excited about the Hornberg until I found out that it was breath pressure and nothing else - and it sends only 128 values out due to MIDI spec, no? True, nobody would confuse me with a French horn player on sight when I’m playing it, but listening is different, and the goal is sound, not appearance. And there have always been performers who moved around and acted eccentrically - people who got caught up in their thing, or people for whom that was part of the experience - and how they are viewed by the public and other musicians who don’t do that is the thing that changes, to me.


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## danbo (Dec 23, 2018)

justthere said:


> Coming from the point of view of a composer - I think the point of motion tracking is not recreating the movements of a performing musician, but is a way of adding nuance.



<note just having an interesting academic discussion here, not trying to convince anybody of anything>

Yes obviously, but FWIW (obviously I'm a media composer too) I find that performance needs to be approached as _performance_, not composition, to render a reasonable facsimile of an analog performance. I guess I wasn't clear, but my point is if an actual musician wouldn't make (or ideally want to make) the motion, then even in the artificialness of VI it probably doesn't make sense either. 

Simple example, too often in a video I see a media composer doing work with their shoulders as they keyboard, or worse _lift their shoulders_. OK they maybe playing an oboe or whatever, but shoulder movement like that is inimical to _piano playing_. Most of us are playing as pianists, so for better or worse I think we need to play as pianists, with the aid of something like a breath controller as needed for post attack expression control which doesn't exist on the keyboard. Extraneous body movements are usually just for audience members, and at home in front of the computer there are none, is all I meant to say. 

Anyhow, just blathering here, whatever works for you is good. My personal approach is I write music out longhand, transfer to music printing software which outputs MIDI, then import MIDI into Logic and use various controllers (sliders and breath mainly) to control performance with the raw notes already there. I have another control to subtly shift note positioning (rubato and such) and score tempo. In this way I'm conducting, not performing.


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## justthere (Dec 23, 2018)

Absolutely an academic conversation, no absolute right or wrong, no harm and no foul. 

“Extraneous” motions are an individual choice. As an example - Glenn Gould made some noises while playing. Can’t say he’s not a great pianist. As time passes, the traditional things don’t change, but people incorporate them into other things, in the way that the acceptance of increasing dissonance has evolved. An inevitable examination of process, and awareness of what elements of the process are metaphor, has to happen and does all the time, right? I’m all good with doing what makes the composer comfortable. I sometimes don’t use key-commands while sequencing because it takes longer, and I want it to sometimes. I try not to let my tools tell me what to do or how - so I get that you would do things long-hand first, absolutely. I would never tell you to change that because you should step up with the times or some nonsense like that. But I will also say that the simulation idea doesn’t hold up for me when it keeps me from playing my instrument. I don’t want to play another instrument like I’m using a flight simulator, where I’m trying to act like I’m a pilot with the chair and the yoke and all that. I want to get notes in, modulate parameters, and hear a result. And I feel like choosing things we stick to arbitrarily is fine, but let’s call it what it is. I don’t want to bow to play a violin sound at the moment because I’m not a violinist and in any event I don’t need to, and if I did wouldn’t I then have to bow utterly differently when I was doing the cello parts? I played horn for years, but I don’t want to have a bell that I have to put my hand in to feel like I’m playing the horn - telling the instrument what I want it to do by other controllers and gestures is fine by me. Because I accept that a horn, and a breath controller, and a sequencer - they are all metaphors, and however I or you connect in order to get music out and delivered is cool.


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