# Trailor-esque with some EWQLSChoir



## Thonex (Jul 28, 2005)

I just got the EWQLSChoir and tried putting it on this Trailer/Promo type cue... it was a little hectic.. but I was able to get something usable with a little help from Symphony of Voices.

The track was inspired by the soundtrack to Bourne Supremacy.

Also, this is the first time I'm trying a Fraunhoffer MP3 converter algorithm... not sure how I like it.

What's the best MP3 algo?

Anyway... hope you like it.

[EDIT]
I took the Fraunhofer MP3 algo off the site... It was at a friends site and he needed the space... and it wasn't good enough to re-post.

LAME MP3 of Race to Pergatory: http://www.andrewkmusic.com/filearea/Go ... BTC_01.mp3

[Edit] I had to remove the original link becuase that cue is now part of a library... hope you enjoy this new version.

T


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## lux (Jul 29, 2005)

very effective track Andrew. It works really fine.

Could u detail stuff used?

Luca


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## Frederick Russ (Jul 29, 2005)

Cool track Thonex - yes do tell of samples used


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## Thonex (Jul 29, 2005)

Thanks Lux and Frederick.



> yes do tell of samples used



Of course... I used EWQLSO with some Sam Horns Bones, SI for spicatto and staccato, Stormdrum samples... no loops..with lots of compression and eq for balls, RMX that I exported as either REX files or .wav files (because RMX is such a Ram pig), Some of Seidleczeks Advanced Orch stuff, Roland Marc Cellos, Symphony of Voices to back up EWQLSChoir.

I listened to it again this morning and I'm not diggin the Fraunhoffer mp3 encoding. I prefer the LAME encoding... am I alone in this?

I'll post a Lame encoded version when I get a chance.

T


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## José Herring (Jul 29, 2005)

Of course great composition. Sequencing sounds a little stiff to me. I'd swing the eightnote pattern just a tad and also accent the 1 and the beat 3 a little more in the string eight patterns to give it more of a live feel. Love the swells quite a lot in the brass.

I was wondering if a de-esser wouldn't get rid of that mid level hissing sound between notes in the choirs. It's like almost there but just a little bit artificial because of that artifact between notes. But, I thought the power of the choir was fine and actually sounded quite natural to me.

Okay to download and study this? Love the mixture of the electronic and perc elements in this piece.

Jose


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## Thonex (Jul 29, 2005)

Thanks Jose.




> I'd swing the eightnote pattern just a tad and also accent the 1 and the beat 3 a little more in the string eight patterns to give it more of a live feel



I agree with the accenting of 1 and three. You can't tell but I actually did... the problem is that if I accented the samples more, they were going to jump to the next velocity zone and it sounded more artificial. Really, I think I needed a better patch... I fought with it a long time and finally said good enough. With regards to the swing... I'd say that would ruin the tightness of the track vis-a-vis the perc... unless I also swung the perc... but then I'd be changing the whole driving feel. But definately accents... you're right... but I couldn't make it work any better with the samples I had. Maybe bring in a real Cello player and 4xtrack him. 



> I was wondering if a de-esser wouldn't get rid of that mid level hissing sound between notes in the choirs.



I'm not sure I hear the hissing sound you're talking about, but I did layer SOV behind the EWQLSChoir to "glue them together a little more.. also to add more balls. The FF Vibrato SOV did that ok. Maybe you're hearing the SOV behind the EWChoir?

Thanks for the feedback. 

I may remix it... it's not due til Monday... I need to do some comparative listening :D 

T


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## José Herring (Jul 29, 2005)

Yeah, once I heard it some more I did hear the accents. I think the cello 4x would be a great idea. You are definately right about the swing thing destroying the driving rhythms I don't think that I was being all that clear. I notice when real string players play a rhythm like that they have to loop the bow to make the up bow down bow think work. This then creates a little movement time wise in the notes. They of course try to keep the beats consitent so the movement comes between the notes.

Not having kontakt 2 yet I've been experimenting with different timings in between notes and different velocities to get rid of the machine gun thing. It's working really well.

I was thinking and it's just a thought that more variation between beats will help it "swing" more and give it more of a live feel without destroying the timing. Just a thought though. If you feel that it f**ks up your piece then tell me to get out of your life forever.

Jose


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## Thonex (Jul 29, 2005)

josejherring said:


> Not having kontakt 2 yet I've been experimenting with different timings in between notes and different velocities to get rid of the machine gun thing. It's working really well.
> 
> I was thinking and it's just a thought that more variation between beats will help it "swing" more and give it more of a live feel without destroying the timing. Just a thought though. If you feel that it f**ks up your piece then tell me to get out of your life forever.
> 
> Jose



Actually, I did employ Theo's technique on some of the marc strs... but not the sonic implats ones.. because I only had the Ensemble version of that patch laoded in my DAW.. so I left it alone... to much of a PITA to change the ensemble patches.


T


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## ComposerDude (Jul 29, 2005)

Andrew, this is VERY cool! Nice work!

-Peter


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## Thonex (Jul 29, 2005)

Thanks Composer Dude :D 

T


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## Thonex (Jul 29, 2005)

Ok.... I think I don't like the Fraunhoffer mp3 algo... 
T


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## ComposerDude (Jul 29, 2005)

Andrew,

The "LAME" encoder isn't lame at all! It's WAY more punchy. I definitely prefer it for this type of material.

I think the Fraunhofer algorithm sounds smoother but less "present" and it isn't handling the punchy drum transients as well as "LAME".

Amazing how much a difference two encoders _of the same algorithm_ can make, especially when being played back on the same MP3 player...

-Peter


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## Thonex (Jul 29, 2005)

ComposerDude said:


> Andrew,
> 
> The "LAME" encoder isn't lame at all! It's WAY more punchy. I definitely prefer it for this type of material.
> 
> ...



Yeah... the LAME sounds better to my ears... at least for this track.

I listened to the track again today and I may remix it... maybe a little muddy in the low-mids.. and maybe a little more sparkle on the top... then again... life goes on... :D 

T


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## Craig Sharmat (Aug 1, 2005)

Andrew, i always enjoy your writing and production. i am wondering whether you would share your opinions of the choir now that you have had some time with it. If you feel it is politicaly inncorrect I understand.


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## Thonex (Aug 1, 2005)

Craig Sharmat said:


> i am wondering whether you would share your opinions of the choir now that you have had some time with it. If you feel it is politicaly inncorrect I understand.



heh heh... well, it would only be politically incorrect if it wasn't any good right? :D 

EWChoir is good. It's not the Holy Grail of choirs, ut I don't know if there will ever be one.

Word builder is buggy... it's not as bad as it used to be (according to many) but there ar still some annoying bugs... like... if you get a good take on the F Mic women, and you want to do a C mic pass to add a little directness, well... the words get all cut of a garbled. I thought I was going nuts, and then Nick told me he's know about this for Months but Nuno can't reproduce it. I can repro it 100% of the time.

Other than the growing pains everyone must endure with a sample library like this, I think it is pretty cool. Ian Livingston and I use it in a similar fashion. We have our basic latin or "scrambled eggs" lyrics that we got to work pretty well... and we use them on everything. It sounds better than just playing ahhhhs.

Also, it is a ram hog. You need 2 systems to really run it.

All in all... I'm happy, and if I had to do it over I would... but then again I got the 50% discount because of the EW Gold upgrade blunder.

T


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## choc0thrax (Aug 1, 2005)

Looks like there will have to be a VI choir library made. :!:


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## TheoKrueger (Aug 1, 2005)

I really liked it Andrew! Great stuff there. Your percussion writing is awesome and the track is leaking of power.

The lame encoder sounds crispier and more balanced on the highs, the Fraunhoffer seems to be distorting the highs a bit. (It could be my idea though, as with all these subtle A B comparisons that can make you dillusional)

Well done!

Keep it up


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## Thonex (Aug 1, 2005)

choc0thrax said:


> Looks like there will have to be a VI choir library made. :!:



The Montreal Hobo Choir!! :lol:


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## Lex (Aug 1, 2005)

Great track!

VOTA would work better, for this cue..

aLex


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## Ed (Aug 1, 2005)

Thonex said:


> Stormdrum samples... no loops..



WoW! How did you do that? I love those toms, but cant make it sound like that. What sort of patches did you use, and any pointers that one should consider when trying to program percussion like this?

Ed


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## Thonex (Aug 1, 2005)

@ THeo,

Thanks man! I agree... I like the LAME encoder better.

@Lex,

Yeah... I figured it would. But you can't use VOTA on promos. :roll: I'm hoping that I'll be able to get more balls out of this choir when I get more familiar with it... but unfortunately.. I think I was hitting all the fff dynamics it has to offer... that's why I put a little SOV Vibratos behind it.

@Ed,

Thanks for the kind words. 

Pointers.... Well... for this track I did a lot of side-chaining. To do this you either have to do with an analogue console or a DAW that has full Plugin Delay Compensation.

I have the the Power Toms and Big Percussion sounds being sent to their own tracks. I create a few Buses with inserts of an EQ followed by a compressor (Cambridge followed by UAD 1176 in this case). I then select a nice snappy compression ratio and then EQ (pre-comressor) the crap out of the Bus. This way, I can assign an Aux send of the Power Toms to the EQ/Compression buss and blend to taste. You can set up several busses... some focusing on snappiness.. some focusing on low end... 

It's a lot of trial and error.

Hope this helps.


T


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## Lex (Aug 2, 2005)

Yeah the restriction on VOTA is still on...
Acctualy what really sounds kick ass for trailer cues is VOTA layered under QLSC...if mixed carefully you get best of both worlds..

aLex


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## José Herring (Aug 2, 2005)

Thonex said:


> Pointers.... Well... for this track I did a lot of side-chaining. To do this you either have to do with an analogue console or a DAW that has full Plugin Delay Compensation.
> 
> I have the the Power Toms and Big Percussion sounds being sent to their own tracks. I create a few Buses with inserts of an EQ followed by a compressor (Cambridge followed by UAD 1176 in this case). I then select a nice snappy compression ratio and then EQ (pre-comressor) the crap out of the Bus. This way, I can assign an Aux send of the Power Toms to the EQ/Compression buss and blend to taste. You can set up several busses... some focusing on snappiness.. some focusing on low end...
> 
> ...



Cool man! Is this posible to do in Cubase SX3? It has delay compensation but not sure if it qualifies for "full delay compensation" as you suggest.

Jose


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## Thonex (Aug 2, 2005)

josejherring said:


> Cool man! Is this posible to do in Cubase SX3? It has delay compensation but not sure if it qualifies for "full delay compensation" as you suggest.
> 
> Jose



Cubase SX has full Plugin Delay Compensation.. so no problem there.

T


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## Ed (Aug 2, 2005)

Thonex, thanks for that! One more thing, did you program the percussion with a mouse, or did you play it in or something?


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## Thonex (Aug 2, 2005)

Ed said:


> Thonex, thanks for that! One more thing, did you program the percussion with a mouse, or did you play it in or something?



I play it in... and iterative quantizing is my friend :D :D 

T


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## José Herring (Aug 3, 2005)

Just tried your side chaining suggestion in Reason. It works pretty well with a dual mixer configuration.

I set up an aux send from mixer no. 1 to the input of an EQ. Mixer number one has the input signal of the toms from a sampler. The output of EQ goes into the input of the the compressor and the compressor gets routed back to its own channel on either mixer it doesn't matter. Now that I'm writing this out I'm thinking that I probably don't even need a second mixer. :oops: 

I have Reason Rewired to SX so I can do the reverb and the wet/dry mixing in SX.

Crued but effective program Reason is.

Jose

Now to figure out how to do this all in SX :? 

Jose


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## José Herring (Aug 3, 2005)

Okay,

I do need two mixers. One acts as the buss. Yeah, I catch on eventually. :? 

Jose


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## Nick Phoenix (Aug 3, 2005)

Thonex, How did you do the choirs in this piece? Did you use high velocities, so the staccato accents kick in? Also have you tried extending the vowel lengths slightly past note off for more glue? I couldn't really tell because of the extra reverb. I thought the track was great, but would be better with a tad more volume on the choir and slightly less verb. I am curious because we are still tracking down bugs on certain systems. It works well on my system in Kontakt, except for the bug ½  š|ÓI4774a716 128075690748ee9fb45b8cb.jpg   @ÿ


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## Nick Phoenix (Aug 3, 2005)

I really wish I had time to sit around and make some demos. Unfortunately, I'm crunched with the orchestra and some TV shows. But, I think i can spare a few minutes tonight and bang out some big sounding phrases. The key to bigness is this:

1. Dont push the mod-wheel all the way up, try 3/4 and just go to full sometimes. This way you get a choir that's twice as big, because you are hearing the mf and the ff samples.

2. Render the choir with the full and the surrounds. Delay the surround tracks by 200 milliseconds. Add a touch of high eq and verb.

3. Make sure you use the top velocities if you want hard attacks. Make sure you don't use hard velocities if you want smoothness.

I get a much better trailer sound with EWQLSC than VOTA 4. Honestly, there are still some things for us to fix in WB. The biggest one is the crossfade bug. Right now, if you don't own Kontakt, WB is limited. But we will work them out soon. EWQLSC is not the Holy Grail, but it can produce 100% realistic choir in many situations. I'll try and give a big sounding example later.


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## choc0thrax (Aug 3, 2005)

100% realistic choir? Any demos on the demo page that have that?


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## Thonex (Aug 3, 2005)

Thanks for the tips Nick.

I hadn't thought of the 3/4 Mod-wheel trick. I'll try it out for sure.

I think my tempo was too fast for the 200 millisecond trick... but I see your point. I just layered it ontop without shifting the S mic position.

I really look forward to hearing a little Promo-esque EWchoire of yours... even if it's just soloed choir.

Thanks again Nick... I really appreciate your availablilty and advice on this and I look forward to getting the best results I can out f EWChoir.

T


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## Nick Phoenix (Aug 3, 2005)

choc0thrax said:


> 100% realistic choir? Any demos on the demo page that have that?



There are sections of the existing demos that are indistinguishable from real choir actually. Any way I banged out something tonight. It actually took me longer than i expected because I was shocked to find that WB was sometimes playing staccato or slurred bumpy attacks when it wasn't supposed to. This explains some peoples comments about no legato. Previous versions of WB didn't do this, so we can fix it. It's not trailer stuff, it's just has nice dynamics. It's called Syberia. 

http://www.homepage.mac.com/nickphoenix (www.homepage.mac.com/nickphoenix) (password: pelepele)


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## Evan Gamble (Aug 3, 2005)

i gotta say thonex that Ive been liteing to this alot..Im a fan! 8)


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## Thonex (Aug 4, 2005)

Nick Phoenix said:


> I banged out something tonight. It actually took me longer than i expected because I was shocked to find that WB was sometimes playing staccato or slurred bumpy attacks when it wasn't supposed to. This explains some peoples comments about no legato. Previous versions of WB didn't do this, so we can fix it. It's not trailer stuff, it's just has nice dynamics. It's called Syberia.



Thanks for posting this Nick!!

I think it was overall pretty convincing... especially for cranking it out in an evening (thanks for that). The men and women sound great and the boys on top of the choir sounds good... but (for sake of realism and as a EWChoir demo ) I would have taken out the boys choir in the intro of the piece.

I appreciate your honesty regarding the "staccato or slurred bumpy attacks". I too have run into that, and being a novice at the Word Builder, it can be quite laborious to find the culprit. 

BTW... is there a site where people can upload/download WB phrases/patches? If not, that would be a great asset. It would be nice if people could post latin prayers in word builder so people can use them as templates. I think that would be a HUGE selling point. The way EWChoir is now... it's like a powerful sampler without any presets.... At least for the Word Builder.

Thanks again Nick... it sounded very good.

T


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## Thonex (Aug 4, 2005)

Evan Gamble said:


> i gotta say thonex that Ive been liteing to this alot..Im a fan! 8)



Thanks Evan!!! :D :D 


I visited your web-site and saw you're only 18 years old!!! Wow... if only I knew then what I know now. You'll go far!

T


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## Nick Phoenix (Aug 4, 2005)

Thonex said:


> Nick Phoenix said:
> 
> 
> > I banged out something tonight. It actually took me longer than i expected because I was shocked to find that WB was sometimes playing staccato or slurred bumpy attacks when it wasn't supposed to. This explains some peoples comments about no legato. Previous versions of WB didn't do this, so we can fix it. It's not trailer stuff, it's just has nice dynamics. It's called Syberia.
> ...




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