# Komplete Kontrol MK 2 or Nektar Panorama P6



## jcshirke (Oct 27, 2017)

Looks like I'm facing a difficult decision concerning which MIDI keyboard controller to get. I keep going back and forth, so I thought I'd seek more opinions.

I use Logic X on a relatively new iMac running Sierra. I have some Native Instruments plug-ins, but not tons. I'd certainly like more, and Komplete (or even Komplete Select) looks great. So KK MK2 makes sense. The screen looks great, and its ease of use and integration with Logic and (of course) every NI and NKS compatible plug in looks awesome.

However, I also have some other non-NKS plug-ins, and I wonder if I would gain any benefit with the KK MK2--or am I back to dealing with the mouse exclusively? Some of the ones that come to mind: Omnisphere, Trillian, Stylux RMX; Dexed (this one is big...I have 3000 or so DX7 patches someone here pointed me toward, and I'd love to be able to use the MIDI controller to browse through them quickly instead of clicking the mouse endlessly); BFD 3; Garritan Personal Orchestra. Can I set up custom maps for these plug-ins? 

Aside: Why do people complain about KK MK2 using a wrapper to talk to 3rd party plug-ins? I'm not entirely sure what that means and/or what the downside is. Can someone clue me in or point me to a place where I can read/learn more? 

There is also no Reason support and integration with KK MK2. I have Reason, but I don't use it much. So, I guess I need to decide if I'm ever going to get deep into Reason or stick to other products.

Panorama: It looks like it has deep integration with Logic and tons of 3rd party plug-ins. But if there isn't a custom map already made for one of my plug-ins, how hard is it to create one? (Example: Can it help me browse through those Dexed patches faster, as well as map all of those controls to the keyboard hardware?) Its whole design was to be a controller for Reason, if I'm not mistaken. So, if I want to use Reason extensively, it seems like I'd be locked into Panorama. 

Panorama doesn't preview sounds/patches--right? That is a really cool feature of KK MK2.

Panorama seems more practical esp. for use with non-NKS plug-ins, but KK MK2 is certainly sexier, and there's more than enough tools in the NI library to do everything I'd ever need. But I do have my favorite 3rd party plug-ins, and I still want to use them--and the same with some of Logic's own instruments.

Any thoughts pro or con?

Thanks.


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## bjderganc (Oct 28, 2017)

I just bought the S61 Mk2, and so far it's been very impressive. NKS integration, the synth action, and built-in DAW controls are all major pluses. Overall it seems to be a well-built controller with nice attention to detail.

One caveat is durability. It remains to be seen if it's really made to last. In my anecdotal experience stage keyboards are built like tanks, whereas MIDI controllers seem to fall apart with a couple years of light use.



jcshirke said:


> I use Logic X on a relatively new iMac running Sierra. I have some Native Instruments plug-ins, but not tons. I'd certainly like more, and Komplete (or even Komplete Select) looks great. So KK MK2 makes sense. The screen looks great, and its ease of use and integration with Logic and (of course) every NI and NKS compatible plug in looks awesome.



I really love NI stuff, so that may be influencing my opinion 



> However, I also have some other non-NKS plug-ins, and I wonder if I would gain any benefit with the KK MK2--or am I back to dealing with the mouse exclusively? Some of the ones that come to mind: Omnisphere, Trillian, Stylux RMX; Dexed (this one is big...I have 3000 or so DX7 patches someone here pointed me toward, and I'd love to be able to use the MIDI controller to browse through them quickly instead of clicking the mouse endlessly); BFD 3; Garritan Personal Orchestra. Can I set up custom maps for these plug-ins?



At the moment, you cannot create your own patches with sound previews. (Anybody know if this is in the works?)
You can create presets that are searchable within the main browsers, just without sound. KK will attempt to map parameters to the controls. For me, Serum made 13 pages of 8 controls each. I'd still use the mouse though if designing a sound from scratch.



> Aside: Why do people complain about KK MK2 using a wrapper to talk to 3rd party plug-ins? I'm not entirely sure what that means and/or what the downside is. Can someone clue me in or point me to a place where I can read/learn more?



The wrapper probably creates some additional CPU overload. This could be annoying if you're already pushing the CPU with a big Reaktor patch or something similar.
Visually, it takes up additional real estate, but you can remove the search fields on the left by changing the view.



> There is also no Reason support and integration with KK MK2. I have Reason, but I don't use it much. So, I guess I need to decide if I'm ever going to get deep into Reason or stick to other products.



It will still work as a keyboard controller. You should be able to map most of the parameters. I guess when it comes down to it, the KK isn't a total replacement for mouse and keyboard. The only controller that could be a total replacement is Ableton's Push 2.


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## jcshirke (Oct 28, 2017)

bjderganc said:


> I just bought the S61 Mk2, and so far it's been very impressive. NKS integration, the synth action, and built-in DAW controls are all major pluses. Overall it seems to be a well-built controller with nice attention to detail.
> 
> One caveat is durability. It remains to be seen if it's really made to last. In my anecdotal experience stage keyboards are built like tanks, whereas MIDI controllers seem to fall apart with a couple years of light use.
> 
> ...



I'd certainly hope that the controller is built to last at this price tag. That goes for both the MK2 and the Nektar. They look solid, but I've never played either one. 

I really love NI stuff, too. And that's actually an important factor in my decision. I'm sure Reason 10 is fantastic, for instance. But do I *need* it? What if I can do everything I'd ever want with some more NI products and maybe the other stuff I already own? Hmm...





bjderganc said:


> At the moment, you cannot create your own patches with sound previews. (Anybody know if this is in the works?)
> You can create presets that are searchable within the main browsers, just without sound. KK will attempt to map parameters to the controls. For me, Serum made 13 pages of 8 controls each. I'd still use the mouse though if designing a sound from scratch.



Would the names of the presets show up on the screen, and would the patches change as soon as I scrolled to the next one? Or would I have to scroll, press "select" (etc) in order to call up the sound? In other words, even if I don't have a sound preview when I'm scrolling, could I at least quickly preview the sound by keeping one hand on the keyboard while I scrolled with the other?





bjderganc said:


> The wrapper probably creates some additional CPU overload. This could be annoying if you're already pushing the CPU with a big Reaktor patch or something similar.
> Visually, it takes up additional real estate, but you can remove the search fields on the left by changing the view.



Okay...thanks. Is the wrapper basically a meta-language or extra layer of communication so that the plug-in and the controller don't talk directly to each other? They both are talking to the middleman, so to speak?





bjderganc said:


> It will still work as a keyboard controller. You should be able to map most of the parameters. I guess when it comes down to it, the KK isn't a total replacement for mouse and keyboard. The only controller that could be a total replacement is Ableton's Push 2.



I asked NI, and they told me there was no integration with Reason at all, even as a rewire inside Logic. But I would have thought that I could create some kind of custom mapping that would work for me. So your post gives me some hope, if that's the route I go.

Any Nektar users out there?


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## bjderganc (Oct 28, 2017)

jcshirke said:


> Would the names of the presets show up on the screen, and would the patches change as soon as I scrolled to the next one? Or would I have to scroll, press "select" (etc) in order to call up the sound? In other words, even if I don't have a sound preview when I'm scrolling, could I at least quickly preview the sound by keeping one hand on the keyboard while I scrolled with the other?



Yes, if you select the User menu. It's function is identical to the stock stuff minus the audio previews. I understand that it maybe be tricky to automate those previews as they are audio files that comprise a 6GB library of its own. Still, it would be cool if user presets could be auto generated in an app. Of course, you can hear that they are individually created and there is some thought behind them.

You could definitely preview by keeping one hand on the keyboard, but there will be lag as you have to load the preset first. Within one library or synth this will be very quick. If you're comparing a Kontakt instrument to an Absynth patch, there will be 5-10 seconds of loading time, depending on your hardware.



> Okay...thanks. Is the wrapper basically a meta-language or extra layer of communication so that the plug-in and the controller don't talk directly to each other? They both are talking to the middleman, so to speak?



The KK hardware and software have two-way communication. Not sure how it works beyond that.



> I asked NI, and they told me there was no integration with Reason at all, even as a rewire inside Logic. But I would have thought that I could create some kind of custom mapping that would work for me. So your post gives me some hope, if that's the route I go.



Don't trust me though, find out for sure if it's important to you! If it's like any other software in any other DAW, you should be able to configure most controls.


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## Cecco (Oct 30, 2017)

Last week I bought a Komplete Kontrol S 49 MKII Keyboard. Like Bjderganc I am very much pleased with the keybed action, (much better in my opinion than other controllers), also the NKS integration with the light guide is very helpful, and the build quality seems to be very good.
One thing that I found a little annoying is the position of the Touch strip, which is placed right below the Mod wheel and the Pitch wheel. It happens often to me that, while using the Mod Wheel, with the palm of my hand I accidentally touch the strip with the consequence of setting to 0 the Expression (CC11).
Apparently, at least at the moment, it is not possible to deactivate the strip or better yet to assign it to other CC, but hopefully that will happen in future updates of the firmware.


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## jcshirke (Oct 30, 2017)

Cecco said:


> Last week I bought a Komplete Kontrol S 49 MKII Keyboard. Like Bjderganc I am very much pleased with the keybed action, (much better in my opinion than other controllers), also the NKS integration with the light guide is very helpful, and the build quality seems to be very good.
> One thing that I found a little annoying is the position of the Touch strip, which is placed right below the Mod wheel and the Pitch wheel. It happens often to me that, while using the Mod Wheel, with the palm of my hand I accidentally touch the strip with the consequence of setting to 0 the Expression (CC11).
> Apparently, at least at the moment, it is not possible to deactivate the strip or better yet to assign it to other CC, but hopefully that will happen in future updates of the firmware.



Do you use any non-NKS plug ins? If so, could you let me know how things work out for you? What DAW are you using? Thanks!


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## Cecco (Oct 30, 2017)

jcshirke said:


> Do you use any non-NKS plug ins? If so, could you let me know how things work out for you? What DAW are you using? Thanks!


Yes, I use Spectrasonics products (Omnisphere, Trillian etc) and lots of Kontakt based samples. In that case, simply pressing one button I switch the keyboard to Midi Mode, then the S49 basically acts like a normal master keyboard where you can freely assign the knobs to whatever command you like.
I use Cubase 9.


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## StillLife (Oct 30, 2017)

I have a Panorama and, since a week, a S61 Mk2 (I owned a MK1 before that). My main DAW is Cubase 9.

The Panorama has some unique strengths, I think. It probably has the best host-integration with the big DAWS. I can adjust tempo, loops, etc, and even browse, pick and edit send and insert effects, all from the hardware. The motorized fader is also quite unique, and the 8 non-motorized faders work with soft take-over, so your parameters won't jump around when you touch them. You can mix with it, navigate through the DAW, edit plugin effects and a lot of instruments and there's also a midi mode that lets you for instance map keyswitches to 8 function keys. In short: it offers a lot, control wise. I still had to use my mouse for micro editing, and browsing to instruments etc, but I've heard that integration with Reason is even deeper than it is with Cubase.
Nektar's selling point is that the Panorama communicates directly with your DAW, it sees what your DAW sees, so to speak. 

However....
There are some things with the Panorama that I really do not like:
1) The keys. They are, let we put it mildly, special. There's a very noticible difference in weight between the white and the black keys, and overall the action does not feel smooth. I did found it playable in the end, but you have to adjust to its feel, and with very dynamic instruments I still struggle.
2) The Panorama works with modes (Mix, Transport, Instrument) that you have to switch to, and I find it annoying having to switch constantly. Say you want to up the tempo and grab the tempo knob, ooops, was still in instrument mode so now I've changed a parameter.. Where's the undo? (There is no undo).
3) The lettering is grey on black. This is a big design fault, I think. Because even after a year working with it, I still have to squint sometimes to see which control I have to use. Very unconvenient, especially when you have to switch modes a lot.
4) The 12 pads are, in my opinion, useless. I am not a finger drummer, but with these pads I will never be: there just not responsive and do not invite to play them.
5) Maybe I did not get it to work properly, but I can not browse sounds and instruments directly from the keyboard. I always have to use my mouse for that. I can open up the plug in window from the hardware though (just as the mixer window in mix mode), once I have picked and loaded them with the mouse.

So, I like the idea of the Panorama, and I very much wanted it to be the keyboard for me, but I can't say that it is, due to some design aspects. Since a week ago I have unplugged it in favour of my new KK MK2. This board is beautifully designed, everything is clearly visible and the screens are a joy to watch. Cubase integration is promised, so I hope that I can use it for that too, come the end of the year. Browsing is terrific, and it's fairly easy to save 3rd party VST's in your user folder, so you can find them in the on screen browser, under user. For instance, I can open up UVI with the Sunbird Guitar no problem. The board really shines with NKS instruments though: automaticaly tagged browsing, parameters are mapped to knobs (you can adjust them in the software if you want to), lightguide shows types of instruments and keyswitches. And the keys are terrific. A joy to play. This is a class A device, imo. It also comes with Komplete Select 11 (all NKS patches of course), so you're provided with a lot of aural goodness right out of the box.

I even went one step further, because for writing and composing music I like to have a mouseless experience I bought the Maschine Jam to accompany the KK MK2. Now I have a software-hardware system that has a dream-like integration. The KK MK2 really shines with Maschine, and works flawlessly together with the Jam. I will still revert to Cubase in later (fine editing / mixing) composing stages, but I am a very happy camper within this NI-eco-system. I think you'll really benefit workflow wise by choosing an eco-system and sticking to it. Reason? Take the Panorama. N.I. Komplete / Maschine? KK Mk2. They both have integration with Logic (though I think Panorama's goes a bit deeper).

I still have my Panorama, but it is back in its box and I probably will end up selling it.

Good luck with your choice!


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## jcshirke (Oct 30, 2017)

Cecco said:


> The Panorama has some unique strengths, I think. It probably has the best host-integration with the big DAWS. I can adjust tempo, loops, etc, and even browse, pick and edit send and insert effects, all from the hardware.



So, doing these things aren't possible directly from the KK MK2, even with DAWS that are supported?







Cecco said:


> I even went one step further, because for writing and composing music I like to have a mouseless experience I bought the Maschine Jam to accompany the KK MK2. Now I have a software-hardware system that has a dream-like integration. The KK MK2 really shines with Maschine, and works flawlessly together with the Jam.



I took a quick look at Maschine Jam. Is it mostly for electronica? Or would it be just as useful for other kinds of music? Could I use it as a controller for, say, BFD3? Can I use it to quickly put together bass, drum, and other rhythm tracks to create song sketches, tracks to jam over (my primary instrument is guitar)? 

Thanks a lot for your detailed response to my post. I appreciate it a lot.


Oh--one other thing: I was going to start another thread about whether people prefer Komplete to Reason --or Vintage Vault 2 vs. Arturia V (etc). I'm not sure where to post threads like that, even after scanning all the forums. That's my next main hurdle after I settle on a controller. I feel like Komplete + the stuff I already own would do just about everything I need, but there are still some gaps I'd need to fill, and, of course, I want to get the best sounding plug ins with the budget I have. I did a search for "Reason", and it looks like no one here uses it.


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## StillLife (Oct 30, 2017)

jcshirke said:


> So, doing these things aren't possible directly from the KK MK2, even with DAWS that are supported?



I am still waiting for the promised Cubase integration update, so I can't tell you for sure. I think you can set tempo, and enable loop (but not the loop RANGE in a DAW). There also an automation button to let you automate plug in parameters. You can also have your DAW mixer on the two screens, for basic level and panning mixing. No browsing and adding effects from the hardware, though. For other DAWS than Maschine, that is. With Maschine you can do a whole lot more, as it is Native Instruments' own DAW.

I also thought that Maschine was geared towards hiphop and house music mainly. It seems like all you see in the video's are rappers and beat makers. The original Maschine, with the 16 pads, has a workflow that is orientated towards beat making and finger drumming, sampling etc, but The Jam is a different beast. It is really super easy to step sequence rhythm tracks (and melodic tracks) and experiment with effects, song structure etc. It has 8 nice touch strips with a lot of functions: from level metering to strumming notes and controlling send fx. I do not own BFD3, but I imagine you could easily load in sounds from it. You could also use the kits that come with Maschine (there are some very nice Abbey Road acoustic kits that come with it) though: they will always have the tightest integration. I advice you to watch some more video's on the Jam, to get the hang of what it (and its software) can and can't do. As said, I use it as a writing, inspirational tool. You always have the option to export your tracks to a full fledged daw (although it is also possible to finish entire songs inside Maschine). It really offers the best software-hardware integration I have ever experienced, and besides that it is really fun to play with, especially in combination with the KK Mk2.

Here's a video with the KK Mk2 controlling Logic and Maschine within Logic, so you can get a pretty good idea of what it can do.



You talk about gaps in your instrumental stuff, and a budget. May I ask what does gaps are and what your budget is?


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## jcshirke (Oct 30, 2017)

I had watched that video before, but I learned more by watching it again. So--when he opens up Alchemy, I assume this is a non-NKS plug-in because a) he is in MIDI mode (need to read more about exactly what that means), and b) he maps parameters to the KK MK2 hardware knobs (etc.). Will any non-NKS plug-in basically be that easy to use? I can browse patches the same way? 

My gaps/budget: Maybe the gaps aren't truly needs--more like wants. But there are some vintage keyboards/synths I'd like to own. I'd like a better acoustic piano, so I've looked at various collections. Then there are things that I don't really need, but I'm sure I'd love to play around with--and that could be just about any odds and ends kind of sound that seems to come with a lot of these collections. Budget: Well, honestly, at the moment I'm broke. But I'd spend a few hundred or so on a nice set of plugins. I also like the option to buy a la carte, but I'm often tempted by the bundles to get more bang for your buck. But then it becomes all the more important to try to decide which manufacturer's products to go with.

Reason (the software, that is): Would there be any conceivable reason to need it if I had, say, Komplete 11?


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## Loïc D (Nov 1, 2017)

I'm owner of a Panorama P4 and had my hands on KK MK1 not so long ago.

I'll just write about few impressions on the P4 (using Logic Pro X) :
- Learning curve is far longer than KK. The organisation of menus is a bit complicated (many buttons to choose from, pages to scroll) and switching from modes to modes is a bit annoying. I also don't really like the feel of push buttons.
- Speaking of which : I second that pads are quite useless. They are hard and lack precision & feel. I'd say even less than my 70€ Akai mini keyboard.
- I also don't feel the keybed so much. As mentionned before, white & black don't feel the same and the key release is very noisy. I monitor at low volume (in appt!) and key noise is very annoying.
To me, nothing beats the KK in term of keybed (among keyboard controllers of course). For the record, not so long ago, I've been spending 2 hours comparing keybeds in a japanese music store among 20+ models (Arturia, Novation, Native, Nektar, Akai, Korg, Alesis,...)
- The motorized touch fader is quick & accurate (but a bit useless to me since I own a Mackie Control). It's really a nice addition to this kind of keyboard.
- The customer service is *amazing*. I bought a 2nd hand unit that showed later an issue with motorized fader. They sent me 2 PCB to replace for free and quickly (from California to France) and kept in touch with me to know if my issue was fixed.

You got it, I've got a mixed feeling about this product (and actually thinking to change).
Maybe I didn't investigate so much on learning how to use it, but the menu & screen don't push me forward to use it. Music is a spare time hobby, and I don't want to spend hours on options & settings. I guess I'm the typical target for KK. 

But don't get me wrong, Nektar has done an outstanding job, given the size of the company, but the experience with the product is a bit frustrating :
- The screen is color, with a decent resolution, but everything is displayed in BW. I feel like they missed the potential of this screen. Something KK (moreover mk2) excels at.
- The build quality is mixed. Fader are great, so are rotating buttons, but the keybed, push buttons and pads are below standards to me. Something KK also excels at.

I wish they'd release a MK2 that fixes some of the limitations.

So, eventually, I think I use 5% of its functionalities with Logic. I also realized that I don't really need this kind of integrated keyboard when composing. 
A more basic keyboard (with transports, good keys, good pads and few faders) is more useful to me. But that's all a personal matter of workflow.

I'd say that Native is a bit like the Apple of DAW : it's beautiful, sturdy, works out of the box, but kinda limited to their own ecosystem. And expensive.
Nektar is more like Android : full of options and potential, not linked to a protocol or a DAW, but you need to spend more time using it.
Sorry for the loosy comparison


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## Cecco (Nov 1, 2017)

Here’s a good video review of the mk2 that I found on you tube.


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## Michael Antrum (Nov 1, 2017)

I had a P6 and found the keybed was quite frankly awful. It’s noisy and as previously mentioned, the black and white keys feel like they have come from different manufacturers.

I sold it and bought a MkI S61 which was much better and I still have it now. To me it doesn’t matter how good the interface is if the keybed sucks. But you may feel differently.


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## jcshirke (Nov 1, 2017)

Cecco said:


> Here’s a good video review of the mk2 that I found on you tube.




Thanks...I started to watch this video the other night. I just didn't have the time, but I will get back to it soon.


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## jcshirke (Nov 1, 2017)

mikeybabes said:


> I had a P6 and found the keybed was quite frankly awful. It’s noisy and as previously mentioned, the black and white keys feel like they have come from different manufacturers.
> 
> I sold it and bought a MkI S61 which was much better and I still have it now. To me it doesn’t matter how good the interface is if the keybed sucks. But you may feel differently.



After all the recent posts, I'm learning toward the S61 MK2. Thanks!


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