# Always per minute for video games?



## Dracarys (Aug 25, 2015)

Hey guys,

I'm wondering if it's always a per minute thing, or if any of you have worked out package deals.

Hypothetical situation:

Popular indie game makes over 1-2 million dollars in sales, but only needs around 5-10 minutes of music. Do you up the per minute rate or ask for % of profits?

In a scenario like this I would be happy with handing over all rights, exclusively, for something like 2-3% of profits and a great credit. I would feel like Hans Zimmer asking for $1-2k/minute to make up for a no package deal.

Love to hear your thoughts, thanks!


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## Pietro (Aug 25, 2015)

I've composed scores for something like 20 games, many of which could be considered indie. You could probably work out a deal with some indie developers (the "real" indies), but I've never actually had a % deal with anyone before. Except for soundtrack sales.

- Piotr


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## RiffWraith (Aug 25, 2015)

Dracarys said:


> Popular indie game makes over 1-2 million dollars in sales, but only needs around 5-10 minutes of music.



Not understanding. If it needs music, that would imply that the game is not finished/released yet. If not, how do you know the sales figures? If it is finished/released, then why does it need music?

I understand you said _Hypothetical situation - _but what you lay out does not make any sense; you are basing the amount money you ask for on something you can't possibly know.

Typically music for games is per minute, tho I have heard of package deals as well.



Dracarys said:


> I would feel like Hans Zimmer asking for $1-2k/minute to make up for a no package deal.



The $1k and up # is usually reserved for well-established game composers working on major (non-indie) titles. I have no idea who you are, but from the sound of your post, you do not fall into the category of _well-established game composers_. But that's ok, we all had to start somewhere. 

Why not start with "what is your budget?" - and work from there?

Cheers.


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## Dracarys (Aug 25, 2015)

Hehe, I ask this question because not long ago I scored a popular game but was unaware of its massive sales. I went with a pretty good per minute wage, but only a couple minutes was required in the whole project. Still, I feel I could have asked for much more, not a ridiculous amount of course, which is why I wan't to propose a possible percentage for my next one.

The next project I'm involved with is similar, a bit more popular, will need a menu/main theme and probably in game ambient music, my estimation is around 3-10 minutes, could be more, still waiting for the green light by the director.
The whole "what is your budget" works sometimes, but mostly on low paying gigs in my experience. My last well paid projects, the developers just asked for my invoice with terms and that was that.





RiffWraith said:


> Not understanding. If it needs music, that would imply that the game is not finished/released yet. If not, how do you know the sales figures? If it is finished/released, then why does it need music?
> 
> I understand you said _Hypothetical situation - _but what you lay out does not make any sense; you are basing the amount money you ask for on something you can't possibly know.
> 
> ...


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## Dracarys (Aug 30, 2015)

Anyone?


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## atw (Aug 31, 2015)

Maybe a stupid question, but how do you controll/check how many sales he or she(gamedeveloper) had?
If it's not a top/hit/best game which everyone has. He can tell you anything.
How can you be sure that everything is ok ?
Sorry, it's a little bit off topic.


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## sleepy hollow (Aug 31, 2015)

atw said:


> Maybe a stupid question, but how do you controll/check how many sales he or she(gamedeveloper) had?


Your question is perfectly okay. If the project is big enough to warrant the cost, then you send in an auditor.
An auditor is a suit who checks the devs books. If the books are cooked, you send in another suit (lawyer).

It's probably the best way to find out if you've been given your fair share or not.


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## DHousden (Aug 31, 2015)

I pretty much exclusively work with package deals. It offers far more flexibility for both you and the developer in terms of experimentation and revisions, without any pressure. So long as you have a good relationship with the dev in question, they will respect your time and won't expect or ask for endless rewrites. Having said that, per minute deals are certainly far more common in mobile development/the f2p environment, so it can depend on the area of the industry you're in. Ultimately though it's down to you to provide a quote for your services and thus you can charge accordingly, so it will come down to your own personal preference in most instances. Put forwards your preferred method and negotiate from there. They can always say no, if they don't want to!


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## Whatisvalis (Sep 9, 2015)

Betting on sales is very risky, however I usually do the following.

Smaller upfront fee and percentage of sales - you can cap the amount claimed from sales and ask for a higher percentage to reclaim your fee faster. 

Package deal $ amount per track if budget is low.

If you're giving up rights to the music then make sure they pay for that upfront.


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## JohnG (Sep 9, 2015)

I've heard of back-end fees based on sales or total units, but what I heard was about world-famous film composers who also do video games.


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## Ian Dorsch (Sep 9, 2015)

It's been a few years since I worked on a big game, but my sense is that even at the AAA level the per-minute model still dominates. I've heard of negotiating a lower per-minute fee in exchange for some percentage of revenue, particularly on indie stuff, but it's often a hard sell. Industry standard is for devs to treat you like every other freelancer that put in a few weeks on the project, and not like an in-house team member that's slaved away on it in every spare hour for the last 15 months.

That said, it (probably) couldn't hurt to talk to them about it.


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## Whatisvalis (Sep 9, 2015)

I think we're talking more indie game development here. Ultimately it depends on the budget, which generally doesn't cover normal p/min rates.


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## Dracarys (Sep 22, 2015)

Thanks for all the great feedback guys. I'm asking the producer for an estimate of how many minutes will be needed, and for a budget. From there, I'll decide what best suits the situation. For example, if a game needs over 30min of music, a higher per minute fee with no back-end is alright with me.
On the other hand, if fewer music is required I'll go for a % of current raised funds. In both situations I'll ask for a cap if necessary.

Another question - for indie PS4 and and Xbox One titles, what is the going per-minutes rate for average composers? I've read around $400-500USD/minute, but I guess this also depends on budget and potential revenue, and if it will be MIDI vs Live. I wish I had a negotiating robot.

Thanks =)


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## Daniel James (Sep 22, 2015)

I just worked on the Metal Gear Solid V video game that just came out, and I worked on a per minute of delivered music basis. To be honest I don't feel that is the best way to interact with a developer from a standpoint....sometimes tracks feel like they want to be longer sometimes shorter. When you are working per minute sometimes there is the possibility of the money people making creative choices about the music based on how long a cue is at that point. I think a better way is agreeing on a fee and do whats best for the game. If you can get a percentage of sales then for sure try to fight for it, if the game is a success you will have a good chance of walking away with a much better overall financial gain.

In the end though I often think its best to have an agent deal with all that side of things. Your job is to be creative, to write music, to collaborate with the other creators. If you are solely focused on how much you are getting paid, your mind is in the wrong place.

Good luck 

-DJ


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## Dracarys (Sep 24, 2015)

Thanks Daniel, my mind is mostly set on credits, but I don't want to lose my shirt in the process. I intend on staying modest, I'm just trying to figure things out without scaring off producers. Congrats on MGS.



Daniel James said:


> I just worked on the Metal Gear Solid V video game that just came out, and I worked on a per minute of delivered music basis. To be honest I don't feel that is the best way to interact with a developer from a standpoint....sometimes tracks feel like they want to be longer sometimes shorter. When you are working per minute sometimes there is the possibility of the money people making creative choices about the music based on how long a cue is at that point. I think a better way is agreeing on a fee and do whats best for the game. If you can get a percentage of sales then for sure try to fight for it, if the game is a success you will have a good chance of walking away with a much better overall financial gain.
> 
> In the end though I often think its best to have an agent deal with all that side of things. Your job is to be creative, to write music, to collaborate with the other creators. If you are solely focused on how much you are getting paid, your mind is in the wrong place.
> 
> ...


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## Peter Costa (Sep 24, 2015)

Not sure if you follow GSC at all, but they just released their annual survey on composer compensation. 

http://www.gamesoundcon.com/#!survey/c1hp9

There should be some stats on what composers are charging per project.

For any indie titles the fees are negotiable based on a per minute basis, who keeps the rights, soundtrack sales. Very few will do % deals. The only ones I've heard are if you are doing nothing up front and probably fronting your own money for production costs, taking a more investment in the company. I would say the low end is around $350-500/minute and more mainstream indie games/AAA titles are going around $1500/minute. It also depends on what your responsibilities are. Are you implementing the music? Sfx? etc...

Most AAA titles are buyouts. The only person I'm aware of who took a % of revenue was Marty O'Donnell. However I believe he was one of the original co-founders of Bungie.

Current event with % points is that VO actors are about to stage some sort of strike. One of their requests is to receive some sort of bonus after x amount of sales and it sounds like the game industry isn't even moving.


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## Kralc (Sep 25, 2015)

Peter Costa said:


> Current event with % points is that VO actors are about to stage some sort of strike. One of their requests is to receive some sort of bonus after x amount of sales and it sounds like the game industry isn't even moving.



Seems the games industry has never moved for any of their requests. Will Wheaton wrote an interesting piece on it, that you can read here.
http://wilwheaton.net/2015/09/this-...tion-for-video-games-and-it-isnt-about-money/


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## impressions (Sep 27, 2015)

regarding famous film composers doing video games, wasn't HZ on crysis 2?
I've heard(from a veteran EA manager) that usually the film composers ask for much more per project(they have their own standard pricing). they're off the budget schemes.


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## Andrew Aversa (Sep 28, 2015)

When it comes to indie games, literally anything goes. Many fellow game composers I know have negotiated successfully for royalties on game sales.


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## IFM (Sep 29, 2015)

I take a different approach for indie games by doing a hourly charge and logging it. I don't mean hour of music but hours working on it...like a normal job. Sure is it different than the norm but then again I came up with my number based on how long it generally takes me to wring one minute of orchestral music. Because I an do many different styles and sometimes the 'minute' is pretty minimalistic being paid by time spent evens out.
Chris


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## samy (Jan 21, 2016)

Hi guys,

I have a quick question regarding this topic.
I will maybe work with a friend on an indie game (he is a professional game developer and takes this thing really seriously). He needs quite a lot of music and if I would charge the minimum fee I have for a minute, he would only be able to pay for around 20% of which he needs.

So I thought about a deal where I charge a smaller amount (like these 20%) + royalties on game sells. What do you guys think of that? And what percentage on the game sells would be fair (10%)?


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## Orchestrata (Jan 21, 2016)

samy said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I have a quick question regarding this topic.
> I will maybe work with a friend on an indie game (he is a professional game developer and takes this thing really seriously). He needs quite a lot of music and if I would charge the minimum fee I have for a minute, he would only be able to pay for around 20% of which he needs.
> ...



That would certainly be the ideal for you, assuming the game sells well 

Is the game going on Steam Early Access? That usually means you don't need all the music before people actually start buying it, so it'll be a little easier for him to start paying you before you've made a crazy amount of music. It also means you can see if the game doesn't sell any copies, in which case you guys will need to have a conversation about whether the rest of the content is worth developing (a hard reality, I know).

Ask for the 20% upfront, set a minimum payment amount (in case the game only sells moderately), and *always* keep the rights to the compositions, masters and derivative works. You can make a good amount of extra money selling the soundtrack on Steam and Bandcamp if the game is popular.

Incidentally, I've had developers reject offers as little as 2.5% of the sales, but if he's a one-man team then 10% should be fine. Steam takes 30%, so he'll still have 60% of the income once you've taken your cut.

Good luck!


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## geoffreyvernon (Jan 21, 2016)

I've done both ways before. I've done music on a per minute basis and music on a set rate overall, and rarely do I ever do an hourly rate. I've done that maybe once or twice. To me personally I like the set rate overall. Why? Because when you're working on music per minute basis, as Daniel James said earlier sometimes you get the feeling that the people paying our getting nervous sometimes when the cue is getting too long and you feel the cue is cut short before it's had it's chance to evolve. Sometimes the cues need to be shorter too than what they're looking for. I think for me personally as a composer and the people I'm working with an overall creative fee is the best way to go for film and games, for both composer and client. However that's just my personal opinion!


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