# Need help getting woodwinds behind the strings!



## bigtony420420 (Oct 23, 2017)

Hi everyone!

I transcribed Mike Verta's 'The Race' (sorry Mike, I hope it is right!) and started mocking it up yesterday afternoon. 

Obviously it is far from finished in any respect, but I am having a particular difficulty getting my woodwinds to sit in the mix. I think the strings and brass at least sound approximately positioned properly, but the woods are sticking out a lot to me. 

I have two different reverbs: a near (for the strings) and a further back one (for the brass and woods). I understand that its probably ideal to have 3 with the intermediate one used for the woods, but as it stands they don't sound anywhere near the brass! 

What are my options to blend them in a bit more with the rest of the ensemble? Or is it just my samples (Berlin Woods) are not suitable: I hope this is not the cause!


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## guydoingmusic (Oct 23, 2017)

It doesn't sound like they are sitting in the same room for one. 

EQ and maybe adding some early reflections...?? Hard to really say without knowing your setup. I like adding 2 verbs to each group. If you look up some of the Jake Jackson videos, he talks about doing this. 

What are you using for reverb now? and how are you routing them (insert or send)?


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Oct 23, 2017)

bigtony420420 said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> I transcribed Mike Verta's 'The Race' (sorry Mike, I hope it is right!) and started mocking it up yesterday afternoon.
> 
> ...




Apart from the few decorational flute and pic runs I barely can hear any woodwinds there..so hard to tell you whats wrong with them. I noticed that the first woodwind run just at beginning is very dry, probably close miced setting, while the later runs are having some sort of room miced on them. I think apart from your question: Everything sounds like a bit of a mess here. Your strings are very strange sounding, some kind of that they miss a natural stereo, the brass sounds like 100 yards back. Having said that: You should not only check your winds, but everything else here, if you intend to use your mockup for your writing and not just as a transcription exercises.


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## bigtony420420 (Oct 23, 2017)

Hey guys,

Thanks for taking the time to reply, I really appreciate your advice! It sounds like you guys might be able to tell me a bit more specifically how to set all this reverb stuff up! You won't believe the number of videos I have watched about this and I feel completely unsure about how to approach the reverb thing! I agree wholeheartedly with everything that has been said. I agree that nothing is sitting together properly, but to my ears the woodwinds sound completely out of place where the other things seemingly blend slightly better.



guydoingmusic said:


> EQ and maybe adding some early reflections...?? Hard to really say without knowing your setup. I like adding 2 verbs to each group. If you look up some of the Jake Jackson videos, he talks about doing this.
> 
> What are you using for reverb now? and how are you routing them (insert or send)?



My current setup is 2 aux reverb channels, with an instance of Altiverb on each. I am using the TODD-AO IR with the 3.5m distance for the strings and the 8m for the brass and woods. From memory the strings are sent about -9, the brass -18 and the woods -5. I have watched the video to which you refer, but I don't recall him being very specific about how to go about choosing the multiple verbs that he adds. Perhaps you guys with more experienced mixing ears than me can go off that, but I am a lowly trumpet player and really need a bit more guidance to get me headed in the right direction. I have Altiverb, Valhalla Room and Vintage, Lexicon Concert Halls and the reverbs that come with Cubase. Do you have any advice about how I can get everything working together? I am NOT looking for a huge reverby mess which is what I always seem to end up with combining reverbs.



AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Apart from the few decorational flute and pic runs I barely can hear any woodwinds there..so hard to tell you whats wrong with them. I noticed that the first woodwind run just at beginning is very dry, probably close miced setting, while the later runs are having some sort of room miced on them.



You are right there are hardly any WW in the excerpt, but it is the runs to which I am referring, and I can see we are in agreement that they sound very dry and strange. They are on the MIX setting the whole time and the reverb send level is quite high! Is it wrong to use the mix setting? Is the Room mic a better choice? I usually use the tree mic with spitfire stuff and it sounds a lot better.



AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Your strings are very strange sounding, some kind of that they miss a natural stereo, the brass sounds like 100 yards back.



That's an interesting point! I was using LASS 2 here and I assumed they were recording in position as they are definitely panned with the Vlns on the Left and Vcs and Cb to the right to my ears. What's the best way to work with LASS in this regard? I find them more versatile than the spitfire things I have, but the spitfire sound is much more pleasing.

With regard to the brass! I agree too that they sound a long way back, but I don't see what else I can do in the sense that I am using the second closest recording position in Altiverb. Should everything be on the 3.5m? Should I be using the close mic on Cinebrass rather than the mix?

Thanks a lot! I hope I have answered your questions and that that will in turn help you to answer mine!!

Big.


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## lucor (Oct 23, 2017)

This is a common problem with BWW since they are extremely dry overall (which is why I'm very happy about the new Berlin Woodwinds Revive). If you want to put them back in the mix, I'd definitely recommend to use just the room mics. They are still pretty dry, but significantly less so than the Mix mic.


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## NoamL (Oct 24, 2017)

Well, haha, there's quite likely something wrong inside your instance of BWW, before it ever gets sent to reverbs. Even the mixed mic setting SHOULD not sound as dry as that flute run at the beginning. Try loading up an entirely new track and instance of Kontakt with BWW, then show us how the winds sound in isolation and take some screenshots of your Kontakt instance.

I found that a mix with Room at -3 and Close at -18 worked well in my template (it's not zeroed because there's other libraries at 0).

The room mic has a good capture of the rather controlled, but still dense and lush, sound of Teldex. Not much external reverb should be necessary to make these winds sit behind any properly recorded string section.

And yes indeed, the tree mic COULD be all you need depending on the piece. Most orchestral recordings are built from the Decca Tree sound on up.


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## guydoingmusic (Oct 24, 2017)

Ok. So I'll give this a shot. I don't own BWW so I'm flying blind so to speak with that library.

The source (BWW) sounds very dry to start with. As some have suggested - maybe try some different mic choices/combinations. So it sounds a little more in a room. Then add a Room verb to create more depth and room sound (something with some Early Reflections). in fact, you should send all your sections to it's own respective verb for instance the Todd AO. And then for a bit more tail, send everything to another instance of Altiverb (preferably one per section again) with the Mechanics Hall impulse (or whichever you like better) loaded. But manage the sends separately - deal with the room sound first. Then tail.

Also don't forget that LASS is pretty dry as well. It has a little baked in ER but compared to your brass, it may need a little more help to make everything sit better.

Once everything is feeling like it's in somewhat in the same room - balance your template. Different people use different methods to do this. But what I like to do is find FF or FFF if the samples have it and set them there. A great reference is this Mahler piece.



Try to match each section to FFF or FF if you can. This will balance out your template pretty well, not to say you still won't have more tweaking to do, but it shouldn't be as involved. Now go back and make sure your verb sends are still at the appropriate level.

Don't be afraid to EQ things as well. A flute doesn't need a bunch of 100hz. Hope this helps some. 

Remeber this as well - Reverb is all about taste. You really just have to keep trying until you find what works for you. This all may take you a couple of days to setup so don't get discouraged. Take the time to balance everything and THEN write. There's nothing that kills an idea quicker than having to balance an entire orchestra and set up reverbs and eq and then what I was gonna have the violas play?


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## skyy38 (Oct 29, 2017)

In all of this discussion, I don't hear ONE thing about orchestral positioning-I.E. an "Orchestral Mixing Diagram."

I have used THIS since day one, and it has been nothing but good, at least for my purposes.

Also, one more thing you will want to try.

PAN each of your tracks, BEFORE adjusting the volume track faders.

SOUND is not only a matter of "Left to Right" but also "Front to Back."

Back in the day of having to "menu dig" for simple functions as volume and fader, I, being naturally lazy, chose to lay down my tracks and THEN pan them as needed.

9 times out of 10, when I panned FIRST, very little adjustment was needed on the "volume scale" overall.

EVERYTHING in its own space, has it's own volume WITHIN that space and therefore, its own "special property."

Think about it. A child's SHRILL whistle toy is UP CLOSE and nerve wracking, while the distant thunder is off in the distance, rumbling as it will.

In the end, all of THIS is a matter of not only MUSIC, but the PHYSICS of music AND SOUND as well.

And THAT is something that you CANNOT learn, from these boards alone.


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## NoamL (Oct 29, 2017)

skyy38 said:


> I have used THIS since day one, and it has been nothing but good, at least for my purposes.



LOL - you may have been misled... that chart is very incorrect skyy.

The winds sit behind the strings, often on a riser. I mean it's not a law of nature, you *may* seat them wherever you want, but I have not ever seen a concert or recording with the winds sitting right in front of the conductor. Also, the percussion is usually in center stage rear (your diagram puts them stage left on the stage apron right behind the vlns?!?!) and the piano is usually stage left behind the violins together with the harpist.

These pictures are more representative of reality













The depth & width of the orchestra of course have to be arranged according to the space they're playing in and the composer's tastes (for example if you listen to John Williams scores carefully, he seems to like the horns on the left really separated from the heavy brass on the right, which suits his orchestrations).


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## skyy38 (Oct 29, 2017)

The BIG problem with MOST of you would-be "MIDI COMPOSERS" is that you have NO experience with REAL instruments and HOW they WORK or how they SOUND!

And even then "REAL INSTRUMENTS" can let you down, if you don't have the proper gear to RECORD them with, in the first place!


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## skyy38 (Oct 29, 2017)

NoamL said:


> LOL - you may have been misled... that chart is very incorrect skyy.
> 
> The winds sit behind the strings, often on a riser. I mean it's not a law of nature, you *may* seat them wherever you want, but I have not ever seen a concert or recording with the winds sitting right in front of the conductor. Also, the percussion is usually in center stage rear (your diagram puts them stage left on the stage apron right behind the vlns?!?!) and the piano is usually stage left behind the violins together with the harpist.
> 
> ...



"Incorrect" as a matter of OPINION?

Or "Incorrect" as a matter of FACT?

The debate continues between the "Apples and the Oranges."


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## NoamL (Oct 29, 2017)

Are you a troll? I recorded at AIR this summer. I just wrapped up orchestrating an hour of heavy music for a charity concert. I played cello in orchestras for 15 years. I know the orchestra (and work every day to try to be a better orchestrator, which is a never ending quest). My goal in writing that your chart was incorrect was not to put you down or start a stupid Internet slapfight, just to straighten out the facts. Standard wind seating is behind the strings. If you do insist on having a stupid Internet slapfight, you should make your first move posting some of your live music for us to hear.


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## fixxer49 (Oct 30, 2017)

skyy38 said:


> In all of this discussion, I don't hear ONE thing about orchestral positioning-I.E. an "Orchestral Mixing Diagram."
> 
> I have used THIS since day one, and it has been nothing but good, at least for my purposes.
> 
> ...


Your seating chart doesn't look correct. (Inasmuch as I have never worked with - nor witnessed - a professional orchestra set up like that. That's not my opinion.)


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## Rob (Oct 30, 2017)

never seen oboes and flutes sitting in front of the conductor either...


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## JJP (Oct 30, 2017)

skyy38 said:


> The BIG problem with MOST of you would-be "MIDI COMPOSERS" is that you have NO experience with REAL instruments and HOW they WORK or how they SOUND!
> 
> And even then "REAL INSTRUMENTS" can let you down, if you don't have the proper gear to RECORD them with, in the first place!



You may want to take care with broad statements. The members of this forum have quite a range of experience and knowledge, and are not all "would-be MIDI composers." There are some very experienced orchestrators with major international credits ranging from Oscar-winning orchestral soundtracks to work with major orchestras on this forum.


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## guydoingmusic (Oct 30, 2017)

_"The BIG problem with MOST of you would-be "MIDI COMPOSERS" is that you have NO experience with REAL instruments and HOW they WORK or how they SOUND!"_

 I mean.... !!!!!!!! I'm  TRYING... TO.... Catch My breath!!


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## desert (Oct 30, 2017)

NoamL said:


> Are you a troll?


Most likely ignorant (read his other posts) 



skyy38 said:


> I have used THIS since day one, and it has been nothing but good, at least for my purposes.
> And THAT is something that you CANNOT learn, from these boards alone.


It's unfortunate that you are spreading bad advice to this forum, and that's a FACT.


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## skyy38 (Oct 30, 2017)

guydoingmusic said:


> _"The BIG problem with MOST of you would-be "MIDI COMPOSERS" is that you have NO experience with REAL instruments and HOW they WORK or how they SOUND!"_
> 
> I mean.... !!!!!!!! I'm  TRYING... TO.... Catch My breath!!



Well GOOD!

I am SOOO tired of "WEEKEND MIDI WARRIORS", and how much MONEY they spend on their "Kits" in order to JUSTIFY their OUTPUT or whatever.

Sorry People, but just because you own a .44 MAGNUM, doesn't make you DIRTY HARRY.

Get THAT much *right*.


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## mc_deli (Oct 31, 2017)

skyy38 said:


> Well GOOD!
> 
> I am SOOO tired of "WEEKEND MIDI WARRIORS", and how much MONEY they spend on their "Kits" in order to JUSTIFY their OUTPUT or whatever.
> 
> ...


Any composer who cannot grasp the notion of 'atonal postmodern-music-transcriptions', or who juxtaposes distortedly instead of informing stylistically, is of little worth.


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## thov72 (Oct 31, 2017)

skyy38 said:


> Sorry People, but just because you own a .44 MAGNUM, doesn't make you DIRTY HARRY.


that´s actually a true comment, sadly in very wrong context. I am glad to be part of this forum and have received so many great tips from professional composers! I´m really happy about that.
So tell me what someone in this thread said to you that 
was not true.

You can always help people here, many do this.
Insulting others does not help.

You could have gone with a simple-"sorry, I was wrong."
.... strangely enough people tend to take criticism - even when it´s posted in such a polite way as NoamL did - very personally and feel they have to start defending themselves---by hurting others.


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## Iskra (Oct 31, 2017)

Do not feed the troll, guys... It's like the commandment of R. Strauss for the trombones (don't look at the trolls, it only encourages them)


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## leon chevalier (Oct 31, 2017)

Iskra said:


> Do not feed the troll, guys...


I don't know... ?

This thread was actually fun to read !  Every now and then a guy pop up here, make a big trolling thread and then disappear.

I'm guilty of finding this very entertaining ! A guy come from nowhere to tell to very talented professional composer that they are wrong and they don't know music.

So please, keep calm and carry on


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## chillbot (Oct 31, 2017)

skyy38 said:


> I am SOOO tired of "WEEKEND MIDI WARRIORS", and how much MONEY they spend on their "Kits" in order to JUSTIFY their OUTPUT or whatever.



I'm NOT sure WHY you TYPE like THIS it's KINDA WEIRD to ME. REMINDS ME off that SPONGE BOB meme where ThE tExT iS aLl WoNkY.

Anyway I very much enjoyed listening to your soundcloud.


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## FriFlo (Oct 31, 2017)

chillbot said:


> I'm NOT sure WHY you TYPE like THIS it's KINDA WEIRD to ME. REMINDS ME off that SPONGE BOB meme where ThE tExT iS aLl WoNkY.
> 
> Anyway I very much enjoyed listening to your soundcloud.


https://soundcloud.com/skyy38
This one ... ?!?


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## AdamAlake (Oct 31, 2017)

FriFlo said:


> https://soundcloud.com/skyy38
> This one ... ?!?



No, your other one.


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## FriFlo (Oct 31, 2017)

AdamAlake said:


> No, your other one.


I think I just missed some irony here and probably still do ...


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## skyy38 (Oct 31, 2017)

guydoingmusic said:


> Ok. So I'll give this a shot. I don't own BWW so I'm flying blind so to speak with that library.
> 
> The source (BWW) sounds very dry to start with. As some have suggested - maybe try some different mic choices/combinations. So it sounds a little more in a room. Then add a Room verb to create more depth and room sound (something with some Early Reflections). in fact, you should send all your sections to it's own respective verb for instance the Todd AO. And then for a bit more tail, send everything to another instance of Altiverb (preferably one per section again) with the Mechanics Hall impulse (or whichever you like better) loaded. But manage the sends separately - deal with the room sound first. Then tail.
> 
> ...




Oh a Mahler Piece on YouTube.

"Perfect" place to recommend a mix and placement.

NOT!


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## skyy38 (Oct 31, 2017)

NoamL said:


> LOL - you may have been misled... that chart is very incorrect skyy.
> 
> The winds sit behind the strings, often on a riser. I mean it's not a law of nature, you *may* seat them wherever you want, but I have not ever seen a concert or recording with the winds sitting right in front of the conductor. Also, the percussion is usually in center stage rear (your diagram puts them stage left on the stage apron right behind the vlns?!?!) and the piano is usually stage left behind the violins together with the harpist.
> 
> ...



Oh GEE!

As I recall, the horns ARE on the left, according to my LAYOUT and William's "Preference"
according to you.

So really, are you that much for "winning a conversation" or, is it, that YOU have not studied enough?


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## NoamL (Oct 31, 2017)

I don't really understand that post skyy. But here is a good exercise/example.

Listen to this while keeping your eyes closed. Then use your hands to point at the trumpets and horns.



Open your eyes and see what angle your arms made. I make it almost 70, 80 degrees (I'm listening on headphones, those listening on speakers might get a more accurate measurement). And you can hear that while the trumpets are still somewhat centered, the horns are WAY over behind the violins.

Compare with, for instance, this:



Barely 40-50 degrees IMO.

Like I said earlier there is a tradeoff between making the orchestral feel wide and making it feel deep. The deeper a sound source is into the stage, the more centered it will become and the more mono it will sound. As you can see if you imagine your hands pointing to the two front corners of an imaginary stage, and then to the two rear corners - the angle narrows.


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## AdamAlake (Nov 1, 2017)

skyy38 said:


> Oh a Mahler Piece on YouTube.
> 
> "Perfect" place to recommend a mix and placement.
> 
> NOT!



I think I just missed some irony here and probably still do ...


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## skyy38 (Nov 2, 2017)

leon chevalier said:


> I don't know... ?
> 
> This thread was actually fun to read !  Every now and then a guy pop up here, make a big trolling thread and then disappear.
> 
> ...



And , thanks to YOU and people like you, prejudice STILL exists.

You don't know the FIRST thing about me.

Meanwhile " ......a guy come from nowhere.....etc..."

Learn usage, at the very least, because lack thereof, is what's leading to the downfall of the US.

Oh, I'm sorry, if you can even understand that last sentence......


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## guydoingmusic (Nov 2, 2017)

skyy38 said:


> And , thanks to YOU and people like you, prejudice STILL exists.
> 
> You don't know the FIRST thing about me.
> 
> ...



usage? 

OH!!!!! you MEAN of the caps LOCK.

Duly noted!


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