# Score study



## TheWillardofOZ (Feb 8, 2013)

This is a spin-off of a previous thread I had been following.

I'm going to order some scores soon for study and was curious as to what specific pieces you folks would recommend to start with.

Some of my favorite composers are Tchaikovsky, Wagner, and Prokofiev, so I plan on picking up their work unless an argument can be made for others first.


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## composeradrian (Feb 8, 2013)

Before you go purchasing any scores, I highly recommend checking out everything at imslp, especially for those works that are public domain:

IMSLP.org

Plenty of works/scores to peruse from those composers you listed. It's a good first stop before trying out any other resources.


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## Peter Alexander (Feb 8, 2013)

The problem with answering your question is that it's so wide without some narrowing to know what your study objectives are and if you're trained in how to do score study. Plus, how deep a harmony background do you have to handle deep content?

Not knowing the answers to these questions, I would start with something short, accessible, and very melodic - even if you DON'T like the style!

Borodin's On the Steppes of Central Asia fits all of the above criteria and it's easy to do a MIDI mock-up of. 

Bizet's Carmen Suites 1 and 2 would be my next suggestion. Between the two you'll learn a lot of scoring techniques that you can apply today. 

For something more adventurous, Debussy's Prelude to The Afternoon of a Faune is challenging and will boost your divisi writing skills. 

For film/Americana, Copland's The Red Pony Suite, but it's more harmonically adventurous then the first pieces I suggested.

If your focus is coloristic, then composers to consider are Berlioz, Bizet, Borodin, Debussy, Mahler, Mussorgsky, Ravel, Rimsky-Korsakov, Tchaikovsky, Wagner. Byt each are colorists in different ways for different reasons and in differing harmonic complexity.

Give yourself a win by starting with something short that you'll finish.


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## Goran (Feb 9, 2013)

Seconding Peter's post above. It is of crucial importance that you know what you currently strive for and that you asses your already accumulated skills properly. It is of no use to study Wagner's Parsifal for harmony and/or orchestration if you don't have the proficiency level in both necessary to half-way comprehend what is going on there. Start with something corresponding to your skills (Peter has already mentioned some good examples of what could be suitable) and work your way up.


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## kclements (Feb 9, 2013)

I completely agree with Peter and Goren's advice about. You have to know where you want to go before getting the map out. And IMSLP is a great resource for classical scores - no film scores, just Public Domain works. 

I would also highly recommend Peter's _Visual Orchestration _lessons. Honestly, I was a little turned off at first by the name and the description that it's also for people who don't read music. It is not just for visual learners - there is a ton of great instruction presented. I purchased both volumes and I am still on the first - re-watching and learning, asking questions, rinse and repeat...

I have also heard really good things about Mike Verta's latest class. You can find the info on another post. 

Good luck.
kc


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## windshore (Feb 9, 2013)

also check out pieces that exist as piano works first. A great example is Pictures at an Exhibition. You can see the orchestration process unfold from the piano score.


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## Goran (Feb 9, 2013)

windshore @ Sat Feb 09 said:


> also check out pieces that exist as piano works first. A great example is Pictures at an Exhibition. You can see the orchestration process unfold from the piano score.



+1 for this. Assuming you are reasonably proficient at reading music and have a solid grasp of instrumentation and orchestration fundamentals, comparing Mussorgsky's piano original with Ravel's orchestrated version is an excellent way to broaden your understanding of what orchestration is about not only in terms of colour, but in terms of form and formal contrast as well.


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## TheWillardofOZ (Feb 9, 2013)

> The problem with answering your question is that it's so wide without some narrowing to know what your study objectives are and if you're trained in how to do score study. Plus, how deep a harmony background do you have to handle deep content?



I'm looking for two thing in particular. First is to expand my palette in orchestration. Mostly with strings. Second is use of harmony. Again to expand on my toolkit. 

A little background on me: I'm a classically trained bass trombone player and studying music theory is a hobby of mine. I study score on a very regular basis, although in a different context, for my band program as I'm preparing pieces for performance. 


Thanks for all the fantastic feedback! I'm going to visit that site this afternoon and look into a few of the pieces you all have mentioned. I especially like the idea of Pictures at an Exhibition with both versions in hand. I'm going to be busy for a while! o-[][]-o


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## Peter Alexander (Feb 9, 2013)

Check out our How Ravel Orchrstrated Mother Goose Suite with piano part at the bottom plus colored scores in the bundle showing how Ravel went from piano to orchestra.

For strings, see our Professional Orchestration: A Practical Handbook - From Piano to Strings.


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## bdr (Feb 9, 2013)

I have both those books mentioned above by Peter, they are fantastic.


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## Barrie B (Feb 10, 2013)

I don't know if this helps in any way, but it was a bit of advice given to me when I was at uni by one of the professors.

When you are looking at, studying, dissecting a page of score it's easy to get caught up in what's happening at any given moment - studying vertically if you will.

He said - and I found it great advice - take some time to study just one line at a time horizontally so that you get to understand what individual players come up against when they are engaged in realising the score. 

It's really enlightening and fascinating because you are always - as a student - trying to take the whole edifice on board. It's obviously a good way to figure out how to write well for individual instrument groups too.

Just a thought,

Barrie


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## TheWillardofOZ (Feb 10, 2013)

> He said - and I found it great advice - take some time to study just one line at a time horizontally so that you get to understand what individual players come up against when they are engaged in realising the score.



Very good advice, indeed. I've been doing a lot of that with the instruments that I'm not as familiar with. It's really helped me learn a good deal about what works for those instruments and how to write idiomatically.


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## Peter Alexander (Feb 10, 2013)

A real aid to score study teaching what composers used to be taught in the late 1800s early 20th century is Visual Orchestration 1 - Master Edition. Particular emphasis is placed on both vertical and horizontal registration, which are the insights used by JW, Goldsmith and a whole host of others. 

This is not taught at uni today.


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## windshore (Feb 10, 2013)

The other time-honored way of really analyzing scores is to do a reduction. It can be TMI to really see what's going on in a full score but making a piano reduction or something where you're really able to see harmonically how things come together can give great insights. You can also get a handle on the distribution of voices among groups i.e. balance

This kind of thing is too much work for most, but even if you only do it to a couple of score excerpts, you'll learn an awful lot.


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## Peter Alexander (Feb 10, 2013)

I don't know what TMI means, Mark, but what you've described is THE way to learn orchestration followed by doing a MIDI mock-up of the condensed score. 

What I teach about this in both Professional and Visual Orchestration is that this is how you teach yourself, which is THE success skill for any career in any field. 

You learn tons from listening, which is the crowning idea behind Visual Orchestration. But to get down to the nitty gritty, the ability to score read and condense a score, once you've learned how to do it and what to look for it, WILL get you there faster.

If you want to really learn the craft, what Mark said is the ticket. If you just want to have fun and put sounds together with your music, then what's being said may be more work then you want or feel its necessary to put in.


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## Peter Alexander (Feb 10, 2013)

composeradrian @ Fri Feb 08 said:


> Before you go purchasing any scores, I highly recommend checking out everything at imslp, especially for those works that are public domain:
> 
> IMSLP.org
> 
> Plenty of works/scores to peruse from those composers you listed. It's a good first stop before trying out any other resources.



A contrarian observation. Yes, you can do this. But by the time you cost account the paper, 3-hole punching, the 3-ring binder, ink/toner, YOUR TIME, just buy the Dover Score, especially if a mini-score is available. Or check to see if a Eulenberg score with CD is available, the Norton Scores, etc.


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## windshore (Feb 10, 2013)

TMI= Too Much Information
ha! 
There is a recreational way to dig into orchestration, though in a limited way... it's certainly worth the $ IMHO
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/the-orc ... 78788?mt=8

Ultimately, whatever method of study gets you to commit time every day for many months, or years is the way to go. I tell my music notation students at UCLA that great composers from Mozart to Tchaikovsky learned composition and orchestration by hand-copying scores of great composers before them. Mozart did this as a child, for years. 

Like any skill, you need to spend a lot of time totally immersed in something to be good at it. It may be that a structured method like Peter's would encourage you to spend more time, and more efficiently so you can think of that as a great investment. If some other method inspires you, go for it. Whatever you choose, there will be the ugly reality that mastering these skills takes a lot of time and a lot of work.


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## composeradrian (Feb 10, 2013)

Peter Alexander @ Sun Feb 10 said:


> composeradrian @ Fri Feb 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Before you go purchasing any scores, I highly recommend checking out everything at imslp, especially for those works that are public domain:
> ...



Peter, I wasn't advocating bypassing purchasing altogether. I was merely advising that before spending money on scores blindly, it wouldn't hurt to peruse them online and finding one worth your own time/money to study. Thus why I noted it's a good "first stop" to take a look on your own.


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## Peter Alexander (Feb 10, 2013)

That and YouTube! Both go together well! I totally agree with you, BTW.


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## bryla (Feb 11, 2013)

[quote="Peter Alexander @ Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:17 Or check to see if a Eulenberg score with CD is available, the Norton Scores, etc.[/quote]please don't waste your time and money with eulenburg. Sure It's great to have the audio. But they are doing new engravings and sadly they are not better than what we are used to from them. Very bad layout and errors in many things - even pitch!


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## composeradrian (Feb 11, 2013)

Peter Alexander @ Sun Feb 10 said:


> That and YouTube! Both go together well! I totally agree with you, BTW.



ABSOLUTELY!


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## Tatu (Feb 11, 2013)

Just pick whatever you like and spend some time with it, doing quick mock-ups as you do helps. If you're just starting and getting in to this, don't pick up a Debussy or Ravel score, but something much, much simpler (well, smaller) instead, like Beethoven, Mozart or Haydn. Their works are for smaller orchestras yet still include masterful orchestration. (IMO).

I just spent few hours last weekend studying Bedrich Smetana's 'Vltava'. Score courtesy of IMSLP.org.

Here's a crappy mock-up with a video 
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1834664/Vltava.mov


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## Rob (Feb 11, 2013)

Tatu @ 11th February 2013 said:


> Just pick whatever you like and spend some time with it, doing quick mock-ups as you do helps. If you're just starting and getting in to this, don't pick up a Debussy or Ravel score, but something much, much simpler (well, smaller) instead, like Beethoven, Mozart or Haydn. Their works are for smaller orchestras yet still include masterful orchestration. (IMO).
> 
> I just spent few hours last weekend studying Bedrich Smetana's 'Vltava'. Score courtesy of IMSLP.org.
> 
> ...



nice work, that's not crappy at all... it seems to me that the sforzandos come a bit too unexpected, I'd prepare them with a quick crescendo...


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