# Death Metal Bands



## José Herring (Jun 30, 2020)

Are there any present day death or heavy metal bands that don't use power chords or does that define the genre?


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## RonOrchComp (Jun 30, 2020)

There are no_ any day _ death or heavy metal bands, or even hard rock bands that don't use power chords. Some less than others, like Dragonforce.

Look - even AC/DC used power chords.


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## olvra (Jun 30, 2020)

lots of single notes, octaves, harms


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## Rex282 (Jun 30, 2020)

I’m not a metal expert however I am a geetar player.From what I hear especialy with drop tuning Which is a P5 on the 2 low strings instead of a P4 Is the main culprit.My personal preference for that sound is the 1-5 of a chord voiced 5-1 Like smoke on the water is correctly played Then the bass doubles the root or plays another chord tone.However I do understand why they voice it 5-1 with drop tuning because it s an easy bar of either 2 strings 1-5 or 3 strings 1-5-1 or 4 strings 1-5-1-5 by adding a second finger a P5 from the octave root....whew metal harmony is deep ...heheheheh....


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## T.j. (Jun 30, 2020)

josejherring said:


> Are there any present day death or heavy metal bands that don't use power chords or does that define the genre?



Maybe explain what you're trying to learn a bit better,
because as with most things, the rabbit hole goes deep... What are you trying to do/learn?

You mentioned 2 styles that are very different and lumped them together as 'a genre'.
I guarantee you there can be a world between them;
different styles, different writing, different fans, different art, etc. etc.

Mostly it's a combination of power chords & single riffs as mentioned, or a combination (2 guitar players usually!). It reads better in a mix, and is easier than full harmony.
Typically solo's are supported using simple chord progressions (think 80's Metallica),
these are usually powerchords.

Death metal tends to be tuned (much) lower, be less melodious, has deeper/lower vocals and different/faster drumbeats, pick your poison..

There's really nothing complicated about any of it,
Lots of good (great even) musicians within the genre's though... YouTube definitely accelerated the learning process, but has not resulted in better or more interesting music (quite the opposite).


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## José Herring (Jun 30, 2020)

T.j. said:


> Maybe explain what you're trying to learn a bit better,
> because as with most things, the rabbit hole goes deep... What are you trying to do/learn?
> 
> You mentioned 2 styles that are very different and lumped them together as 'a genre'.
> ...



Yeah, that's my problem. I'm doing this cue for a demo for a TV show and I need some fairly dark guitar stuff along with synth bass ect... I'm trying to add harmony to it but when I do anything but a 5th it gets overly distorted and sounds dissonant because of the distortion on the guitars. Even a fourth sounds like crap. I had a nice little progression going and it was sounding nice and musical then I add the distortion and all harmony goes out the window.

I'm about to get Titan from Alex Pfeffer but I don't want the guitar to just do power chords.

As I write this though, I don't think that power chords as the basses and 5th of the harmony is so bad if I can put a arpeggiated guitar part to fill out the harmony. Then put some melodic instruments on top of that. I like it. So the problem is with my orchestration. If I want guitars down low they almost have to be doing power chords as you mentioned. Works out better than full harmonies.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jul 1, 2020)

Chords generally don't really work with heavy distortion. It gets ugly real quick and that's why most bands who rely on a heavy guitar sound resort to power chords, fourths (Smoke On The Water ), double stops and single note rhythm figures while leaving harmony notes to other instruments or making up interesting arpeggiated ideas to imply the harmonic structure. If needed, root + minor/major 3rd or flat 5th work, especially as passing intervals. One cool trick to make power chords beefier is to add the fourth below the root. Sus4 also works and can sound really big - the fourth should be in the high register of the chord though.


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## T.j. (Jul 1, 2020)

josejherring said:


> Yeah, that's my problem. I'm doing this cue for a demo for a TV show and I need some fairly dark guitar stuff along with synth bass ect... I'm trying to add harmony to it but when I do anything but a 5th it gets overly distorted and sounds dissonant because of the distortion on the guitars. Even a fourth sounds like crap. I had a nice little progression going and it was sounding nice and musical then I add the distortion and all harmony goes out the window.
> 
> I'm about to get Titan from Alex Pfeffer but I don't want the guitar to just do power chords.
> 
> As I write this though, I don't think that power chords as the basses and 5th of the harmony is so bad if I can put a arpeggiated guitar part to fill out the harmony. Then put some melodic instruments on top of that. I like it. So the problem is with my orchestration. If I want guitars down low they almost have to be doing power chords as you mentioned. Works out better than full harmonies.



Got it.
I think you're making it a little too complicated.
Very few guys even write from a chord progression outward, think motives (= riff) instead, then find out what key you're in when there's actually a need to know. Mostly it's just fitting similar puzzle pieces together.
Structure doesn't have to be different from your standard pop tune, but can be as complex/long as you like.

On piano: try writing with 1 finger !!!

Guitars can either double up, play octaves, or play against each other, those are all very common.
Harmonising riffs can indeed sound suspicious quickly, and therefore is done sparingly. Pick them wisely.

Remember metal came from punk, and 99% of the o.g. guys were not schooled musicians.
Some of the most revered albums were written by teenagers, on shit equipment.

P.s. 
Yes it's also an orchestration/physics. thing... just open them up!
You'd most likely voice brass/strings open in the same register as well, now just leave out (most) 7ths and 3rds.
Your ear just isn't as sensitive way up/down the register as it is in the middle, keep it simple!
Focus on a good riff, then for example go from single note riff > power chord B section for.. creates contrast and thus 'interest'.

Hope that helps


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## Henu (Jul 1, 2020)

Forget power chords. Death metal is more about _riffs_, which could be interpreted in musical terms as "usually combining fast-picked single-line atonal melodies with staccatos in between to make them more interesting".







Oh, and before anyone asks, only USDM is real. :D Yours, a fanboy since '93.


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## Rex282 (Jul 1, 2020)

To clean up the sound don't dial the amp sound very dirty it sits better in the mix and isnt so mushy.To make it really tight and open play 5-1 voicing on gtr and let the bass carry the root down low with some grind on the amp.

Playing this sound is much trickier then it sounds.It's not just power chords the accents,phrasing and articulation is very important when playing with gain.I've never heard a metal gtr library come even close to sounding convincing to me it just sounds....grindy.

To make riffs sound super tight it is very particular type of muting with palm and fingering hand(I call it choking) the type of pick stroke(downs sound the tightest) and blocking string ring.

Playing electri guitar is essentially playig two instruments at once(gtr and amp) in tandem and everyone does it differently and to decipher the intimacies is difficult since most players have no idea what they are doing and are usually one trick ponies.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jul 1, 2020)

it REALLY depends on the band

really riff heavy technical bands arent throwing powerchords in that fast, and harmonies tend to be parallel minor 3rds. 

slower bands or sections still often times consist of 4ths and 5ths. 

if you're just looking for heavy music, djent often times uses essentially single note mute and bend patterns


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## retric (Jul 1, 2020)

Yeah Djent is your best bet, something like Northlane or After the Burial tend to mix synths with heavy guitars, although the synths are not really fully featured all the time

This one has no synths but you can get an idea of some nice harmonies on heavy guitar with no powerchords


This one has heavy guitars in front (although power chords) but has synths in the background


And this one is full mix guitars and synths


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## KEM (Jul 1, 2020)

Death metal in particular is very simplistic, there is no real harmony, it’s just about raw aggression, don’t expect it to be very complicated, but if you want tips on how to get a great metal tone that plays well with synths and orchestral elements:

1. Use high end pickups that have good string separation and note clarity, like Bare Knuckle or Lundgren
2. Dial back the gain and use an overdrive pedal with the drive all the way down to boost the amp, this will drastically clean up the low end flub you get from a high gain amp and give you a tighter yet more aggressive sound
3. You don’t have to tune super low to sound heavy, drop c isn’t that low and you can make it sound huge and brutal
4. Listen to Periphery
5. ^ Do what #4 says


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## FuzyDunlop (Jul 1, 2020)

Many bands use harmonized guitars in thirds, fourths, fifths, etc with heavy distortion. Shouldn't be an issue. Playing those intervals at the same time on a single guitar is where the overtones will start to make it sound undesirable. Two or more guitars harmonizing while playing single notes is very common (all the way back to Iron Maiden and before, could look at Deep Purple with distorted organ harmonizing with guitar too for something a little different).


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## J-M (Jul 1, 2020)

KEM said:


> Death metal in particular is very simplistic, there is no real harmony, it’s just about raw aggression, don’t expect it to be very complicated, but if you want tips on how to get a great metal tone that plays well with synths and orchestral elements:
> 
> 1. Use high end pickups that have good string separation and note clarity, like Bare Knuckle or Lundgren
> 2. Dial back the gain and use an overdrive pedal with the drive all the way down to boost the amp, this will drastically clean up the low end flub you get from a high gain amp and give you a tighter yet more aggressive sound
> ...



You get a like for listing Periphery. (And listing some good points in general!)

"Experience heavy metal at it's finest! Periphery, love that shit!"


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## FuzyDunlop (Jul 1, 2020)

This is the best modern death metal band IMHO. Death metal is by no means restricted to power chords or single note riffs (or even guitars at all).


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## FuzyDunlop (Jul 1, 2020)




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## givemenoughrope (Jul 1, 2020)

if you're looking for some kind of link between death metal and orchestral music Luc Lemay is one:










still plenty of power or barred chords in metal but don't think of them as chords since they are really just single-note riffs with more overtones. i was never into death metal as a kid but post-2000 death metal and grind latched onto prog and nwobh retro and hit a sweet spot:


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## visiblenoise (Jul 1, 2020)

givemenoughrope said:


> if you're looking for some kind of link between death metal and orchestral music Luc Lemay is one:



Big +1 to Gorguts, their two newest albums are among my favorites. Restrained distortion levels and a lot of harmonic support from more complicated basslines.


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## José Herring (Jul 1, 2020)

Slowly working my way through all the post. Lots of good information. Many changes since I was last listening to this stuff.

I gotta admit. It's like about 180 degrees from what I was thinking. Lowering the gain never enter my mind.
Also, I'm thinking a long the lines of baddass big ballad stuff with big dirty dark guitars down low. So I can throw some stuff on top.

I'm probably going to get Titan guitar so that I have that sound already rather than build it up with samples and my guitar rig 5  But, in the initial phases of this cue, I'm getting close with some presets in guitar rig. Maybe like 75%.

I will eventually get to all the post. Thank you.

Funny enough the Gorgut stuff is probably a little closer to what I was thinking for this project. Not so advantgarde sounding but I need to find a way to mix those guitars with strings and french horns at least. Problem with the french horn is that it lies in the same register as the gits.


KEM said:


> 2. Dial back the gain and use an overdrive pedal with the drive all the way down to boost the amp, this will drastically clean up the low end flub you get from a high gain amp and give you a tighter yet more aggressive sound



Okay, I think I'm following. Going to give it a shot. Thx.


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## Nils Neumann (Jul 2, 2020)

RonOrchComp said:


> There are no_ any day _ death or heavy metal bands, or even hard rock bands that don't use power chords. Some less than others, like Dragonforce.
> 
> Look - even AC/DC used power chords.


I used to play a lot of Dragonforce. They use power Chords


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## José Herring (Jul 2, 2020)

The more I listen and get the guitar sound I want the more I realize that Death metal really has a symphonic aesthetic. As soon as I dialed in the right guitar sound (turned down the gain and drive) ect, the more the orchestra just popped out of the mix in full detail while the sustain guitars power chords sat dark and low in kind of an ambient but forceful and presence. 

The only thing I don't get about death metal is why human beings feel the need to ruin perfectly good instrumentals by singing all over it. Jeez.


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## José Herring (Jul 2, 2020)

Tomorrow I'll replace the sampled guitar with my own live playing drop c tuning, at which point I'll probably get Titan to replace or over power my own performance


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## Rex282 (Jul 2, 2020)

KEM said:


> Death metal in particular is very simplistic, there is no real harmony, it’s just about raw aggression, don’t expect it to be very complicated, but if you want tips on how to get a great metal tone that plays well with synths and orchestral elements:
> 
> 
> 2. Dial back the gain and use an overdrive pedal with the drive all the way down to boost the amp, this will drastically clean up the low end flub you get from a high gain amp and give you a tighter yet more aggressive sound
> .....


I agree this is how you can get more clarity with a distorted amp however the same is not true of any sim I've played.The master does not effect the timbre the same way.

I like multiple gtr tracks with different guitars, amps(re- amping) cabs and speakers,mics pres,etc etc To dial in a usable sound is a process and is obviously highly dependent on the orchestration.IMO multiple thin tracks (,with HPF) is more effecient so you can control the mix instead of trying to make a huge gtr sound on 2 tracks that doesnt ever fit.


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## KEM (Jul 2, 2020)

Rex282 said:


> I agree this is how you can get more clarity with a distorted amp however the same is not true of any sim I've played.The master does not effect the timbre the same way.
> 
> I like multiple gtr tracks with different guitars, amps(re- amping) cabs and speakers,mics pres,etc etc To dial in a usable sound is a process and is obviously highly dependent on the orchestration.IMO multiple thin tracks (,with HPF) is more effecient so you can control the mix instead of trying to make a huge gtr sound on 2 tracks that doesnt ever fit.



I use a real overdrive pedal (Precision Drive) and it works very well with the Neural DSP amps, but the modeled overdrives within the plugins all suck, I’ve never liked fake overdrive/boost pedals because they don’t hit the amp the way a real one would, but I love amp sims, they’re almost like an idealized version of a real amp, and combined with real pedals you can get some really good tones.

This is probably the best sim amp tone I’ve ever heard:


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## José Herring (Jul 2, 2020)

KEM said:


> I use a real overdrive pedal (Precision Drive) and it works very well with the Neural DSP amps, but the modeled overdrives within the plugins all suck, I’ve never liked fake overdrive/boost pedals because they don’t hit the amp the way a real one would, but I love amp sims, they’re almost like an idealized version of a real amp, and combined with real pedals you can get some really good tones.
> 
> This is probably the best sim amp tone I’ve ever heard:



Damn the CPU hit on that is insane.


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## KEM (Jul 2, 2020)

josejherring said:


> Damn the CPU hit on that is insane.



Yeah Neural DSP plugins are incredibly heavy on the CPU, they are part of the reason I’m getting a new computer, I can only have a handful of them loaded up before I start having massive amounts of audio dropouts, but they sound absolutely amazing and I highly recommend them. All of their plugins have a 14 day trial so you should definitely give them a shot, for death metal the NTS would probably be your best bet, my personal favorite is the Granophyre and Nameless, and the Nolly is the best value.

They’re actually announcing a new plugin tomorrow...


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## MartinH. (Jul 2, 2020)

josejherring said:


> Funny enough the Gorgut stuff is probably a little closer to what I was thinking for this project. Not so advantgarde sounding but I need to find a way to mix those guitars with strings and french horns at least. Problem with the french horn is that it lies in the same register as the gits.



Strings? French horns? I have a hunch the question for "death metal" specifically may not be an ideal representation of what you're actually trying to achieve. 

Maybe check this out:


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## José Herring (Jul 2, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Strings? French horns? I have a hunch the question for "death metal" specifically may not be an ideal representation of what you're actually trying to achieve.
> 
> Maybe check this out:



By Death Metal I mean guitars and drums and bass (synth bass in my case) sitting with as much orchestra as I can put in it for film music. So it's hybrid. In this discussion I realized that it's more about getting the right sound for the power chords down low. 

Like I said in the end, I'll go with Titan but I've found that even if I use a library if I don't know all about the aesthetic I tend to use that library really poorly. So, I'm learning the thought and skill behind those guitars and building it myself as best I can.

Once I get something that is 1/2 way decent I'll post at least the guitar, bass and drums.


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## FuzyDunlop (Jul 2, 2020)

josejherring said:


> By Death Metal I mean guitars and drums and bass (synth bass in my case) sitting with as much orchestra as I can put in it for film music.


The defining characteristic of death metal is the vocal style (and even that varies widely in technique and timbre). Other than that there are some loose similarities but metal is a HUGE and diverse style of music with hundreds or even thousands of sub-genres and micro-genres. Death metal itself has many many sub-genres.


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## KEM (Jul 2, 2020)

What drums? I hope GetGood Drums, you should definitely be using GetGood Drums...


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## MartinH. (Jul 2, 2020)

KEM said:


> What drums? I hope GetGood Drums, you should definitely be using GetGood Drums...



Post the trailer to invasion! 




josejherring said:


> By Death Metal I mean guitars and drums and bass (synth bass in my case) sitting with as much orchestra as I can put in it for film music.



For me Death Metal is is a certain range of vocal styles, complex rythms, lots of palmmutes, downtuned guitars and riffs with a degree of complexity that varies wildly from one DM subgenre to another. Synths or orchestra are the last thing I'd think of when you say "Death Metal". Sure there are combinations of those as symphonic death metal etc., but it's not what sets Death Metal apart from other Metal genres imho.




josejherring said:


> Like I said in the end, I'll go with Titan but I've found that even if I use a library if I don't know all about the aesthetic I tend to use that library really poorly. So, I'm learning the thought and skill behind those guitars and building it myself as best I can.



I just loaded up Titan to have a look and I think for just powerchords with baked in distortion it's a great choice. If I'm seeing that correctly, it has chromatically sampled powerchords, which I think not every guitar library has. But in my humble opinion, you absolutely can not make a deathmetal track with it, because it's _just _unmuted powerchords. And no round robins as far as I can tell. If you have a guitar and can play even just a little, I would recommend to go with that. Even if you later have to edit the crap out of your riffs, in my experience it still sounds better than VI guitars. Except maybe if your signal is overly noisy and you can't get that fixed. In that case I'd go with one of the Shreddage 3 VIs. 


Here's a tutorial on using a great free ampsim for metal (imho this one is better than guitar rig for this style, but feel free to disagree, this is very subjective):




And I'd recommend to try a couple of the free IR packs, loaded into NadIR (or pulse, it's almost the same) that are floating around the web. Like Catharsis, or this one: 








ML Sound Lab's BEST IR IN THE WORLD.zip


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com


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## KEM (Jul 2, 2020)

IRs are another good point I forgot to mention, I don’t use the ones that come in the Neural plugins, I use the Zilla Cabs from GetGood Drums, I made my own IR based off of the Swedish technique.

Honestly if you have the DIs and want to try different tones out I can just reamp them for you lol


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## José Herring (Jul 2, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Post the trailer to invasion!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But....I just like the guitar sound. I'm not writing a dissertation on the merits of what is true Death Metal. 

I've gotten a lot of good advice to narrow down the sound I'm after. Thx.


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## visiblenoise (Jul 4, 2020)

Haven't tried it yet, but thought you might be interested - "Amplitube Metal" is free if you get on their mailing list. Someone's made a thread about it here already: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/amplitube-metal-free.95439/


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## Gil (Jul 4, 2020)

Hello,
I hope it's not digression, but a very well known black metal band called Dimmu Borgir is used to play with an orchestra: perhaps the following videos can add some thoughts on the subject of this thread.
Progenies of The Great Apocalypse:


Full live:


Their arranger has done really great job imho with this kind of music: he's Gaute Storaas.


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## visiblenoise (Jul 4, 2020)

visiblenoise said:


> Haven't tried it yet, but thought you might be interested - "Amplitube Metal" is free if you get on their mailing list. Someone's made a thread about it here already: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/amplitube-metal-free.95439/


Okay, I just tried it and it's kind of a waste of time. Better results can be had faster with free amps and IRs. There's just too many options, and none of the presets sound very promising as is.


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## MartinH. (Jul 4, 2020)

visiblenoise said:


> Okay, I just tried it and it's kind of a waste of time. Better results can be had faster with free amps and IRs. There's just too many options, and none of the presets sound very promising as is.


Thanks, that may have saved me quite some time and frustration.


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## MartinH. (Jul 16, 2020)

@josejherring: I'm curious what you did end up using, and if you can share a bit of the result with us that would be even cooler!


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## Rex282 (Jul 16, 2020)

Something like this 








Lord Of The Locust by Butch Price


The best independent music community on the net. Listen to music, buy and sell beats and albums. #guitar




soundclick.com


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## blackzeroaudio (Jul 16, 2020)

Only commenting to add in more metal bands with Orchestral elements...

Shadow of Intent 
Fleshgod Apocalypse

Both are great. Highly recommend


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## KEM (Jul 16, 2020)

blackzeroaudio said:


> Only commenting to add in more metal bands with Orchestral elements...
> 
> Shadow of Intent
> Fleshgod Apocalypse
> ...



Funny you mention Shadow of Intent, my friend is in a deathcore band and I’m writing a lot of the orchestral elements for them, and they’re actually having their EP produced by Shadow of Intent’s guitarist and my friend told me he wanted me to go with them when they record


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## blackzeroaudio (Jul 16, 2020)

KEM said:


> Funny you mention Shadow of Intent, my friend is in a deathcore band and I’m writing a lot of the orchestral elements for them, and they’re actually having their EP produced by Shadow of Intent’s guitarist and my friend told me he wanted me to go with them when they record



Dude that's awesome.What's the band name? would love to check them out once that's done.


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## KEM (Jul 16, 2020)

blackzeroaudio said:


> Dude that's awesome.What's the band name? would love to check them out once that's done.



This was their first single, I didn’t work on this particular track but all the new stuff I’ll be on!


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## Mike Fox (Jul 16, 2020)

josejherring said:


> The only thing I don't get about death metal is why human beings feel the need to ruin perfectly good instrumentals by singing all over it. Jeez.



I feel exactly the same. The screaming is so cliche and cookie cutter, while you have some seriously talented musicians playing their hearts out, and a lot of it gets covered up by the cheesey screaming. It's actually the main reason why i don't listen to it anymore.


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## FuzyDunlop (Jul 16, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> The screaming is so cliche and cookie cutter



Yeah, that's like saying "all classical music sounds the same" or something equally ridiculous. Metal vocals are so diverse, with so many different techniques and timbres, that it couldn't even be any further from 'cookie cutter.' And on top of that, people in the genre continue to push the limits of what a human voice is capable of, achieving tones and effects that have never before been performed by a human.


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## reimerpdx (Jul 16, 2020)

KEM said:


> This was their first single, I didn’t work on this particular track but all the new stuff I’ll be on!



Holy changeups, Batman.
i like it though. Thanks for sharing, and make sure to share the good stuff, KEM!


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## Rex282 (Jul 16, 2020)

FuzyDunlop said:


> Yeah, that's like saying "all classical music sounds the same" or something equally ridiculous. Metal vocals are so diverse, with so many different techniques and timbres, that it couldn't even be any further from 'cookie cutter.' And on top of that, people in the genre continue to push the limits of what a human voice is capable of, achieving tones and effects that have never before been performed by a human.



I agree on your sentiment however that is not what Mike said...he very specificaly said the "cheessy cookie cutter screaming" and I wholeheartdly agree.It's like a South Park parody of the evil "Emo's"

When it is just music it's much more listenable for "me"(especially if the guitar player plays a melody...God forbid) and the arrangement doesnt have an orchestra slalthered on.It is quite fun to create an arrangement that isn't just thick with sound all the time and quite tricky to get a guitar sound that is pleasantly aggressive.


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## Mike Fox (Jul 16, 2020)

Rex282 said:


> I agree on your sentiment however that is not what Mike said...he very specificaly said the "cheessy cookie cutter screaming" and I wholeheartdly agree.It's like a South Park parody of the evil "Emo's"



THANK YOU!


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## visiblenoise (Jul 16, 2020)

Take out the vocals to any great metal song though, and it would be incredibly empty...yet, conventional singing would also ruin it...

I dunno, I only put up with the vocals at first because I loved distorted guitar, but over the years I've found lots of styles I really appreciate. It's usually the lower, more restrained kind that brings something rhythmical to the song.


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## Mike Fox (Jul 16, 2020)

FuzyDunlop said:


> Yeah, that's like saying "all classical music sounds the same" or something equally ridiculous. Metal vocals are so diverse, with so many different techniques and timbres, that it couldn't even be any further from 'cookie cutter.' And on top of that, people in the genre continue to push the limits of what a human voice is capable of, achieving tones and effects that have never before been performed by a human.


I'm not denying that vocal diversity, talent, and evolution exists within the genre.

I'm saying that I've heard far too much cheese and "monkey see, monkey do" in the genre to be turned off by it. There's just been countless times where I've heard some of the best instrumentals in death metal only for it to be ruined by bad vocalists, and not just bad vocalists, but good ones too. Sometimes I'd rather just listen to the band and not the singer.

There's a reason why some bands release the same album twice, but one is without the vocals.


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## FuzyDunlop (Jul 16, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> I'm not denying that vocal diversity, talent, and evolution exists within the genre.
> 
> I'm saying that I've heard far too much cheese and "monkey see, monkey do" in the genre to be turned off by it. There's just been countless times where I've heard some of the best instrumentals in death metal only for it to be ruined by bad vocalists, and not just bad vocalists, but good ones too. Sometimes I'd rather just listen to the band and not the singer. There's a reason why some bands release will release the same album, but without the vocals.



I can agree with that. I felt that way about a lot of bands initially that are now among my favorite artists, particularly Mastodon. When I heard the instrumental version of Crack the Skye I wondered why they even bothered singing at all. But I love both versions now.


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## Mike Fox (Jul 16, 2020)

visiblenoise said:


> Take out the vocals to any great metal song though, and it would be incredibly empty...yet, conventional singing would also ruin it...


I think it just depends on how technical the music is, and how the music is arranged/structured.

For example, this track doesn't feature any vocals, yet it doesn't sound "incredibly empty", but that's because it's an instrumental piece.


I think context is really important when it comes to using a vocalist, and there's a lot of great music that stands on it's own two feet without a singer, but unfortunately, i feel like some of those bands have singer "just because".


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## KEM (Jul 16, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> I think it just depends on how technical the music is, and how the music is arranged/structured.
> 
> For example, this track doesn't feature any vocals, yet it doesn't sound "incredibly empty", but that's because it's an instrumental piece.




Dream Theater is a very extreme example haha, same with Periphery or any progmetal band really. I think he was referring to simpler metal bands, and he’s right, they rely very heavily on the vocals, the instruments don’t really serve any other purpose than to be super heavy lol


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## Mike Fox (Jul 16, 2020)

FuzyDunlop said:


> I can agree with that. I felt that way about a lot of bands initially that are now among my favorite artists, particularly Mastodon. When I heard the instrumental version of Crack the Skye I wondered why they even bothered singing at all. But I love both versions now.


I'm still trying to warm up to their singer, lol!


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## Mike Fox (Jul 16, 2020)

KEM said:


> Dream Theater is a very extreme example haha, same with Periphery or any progmetal band really. I think he was referring to simpler metal bands, and he’s right, they rely very heavily on the vocals, the instruments don’t really serve any other purpose than to be super heavy lol


Yes, in conventional bands, there's certainly a co-dependency that exists between the singer and the rest of the band, and i feel the singer can either make or break the band at that point.

Regardless, unity is key.


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## blackzeroaudio (Jul 16, 2020)

visiblenoise said:


> Take out the vocals to any great metal song though, and it would be incredibly empty...yet, conventional singing would also ruin it...
> 
> I dunno, I only put up with the vocals at first because I loved distorted guitar, but over the years I've found lots of styles I really appreciate. It's usually the lower, more restrained kind that brings something rhythmical to the song.



I kind of agree. It really does depend on the sub-genre though. A couple years ago I was starting to get burnt out on the metal scene due to this reason. Everything felt stale. For a little perspective I really started to get into the genre in 2004/2005.

Then I stumbled upon Archspire, completely renewed my inspiration to write metal and my interest in the genre again. They're phenomenal musicians and have a pretty interesting vocalist.


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## Henu (Jul 17, 2020)

One thing you should understand is that extreme (death/black mostly) metal vocals are often consider more as an instrument instead of a traditional vocalist, and the rhythmic approach plays a great role in the arrangement. It's also the "glue" between instrumental parts and due having the strongest human element, makes the whole package more interesting to listen to.

For example, when I do quick demos, I sometimes use a custom Kontakt patch with our vocalist's random syllables (chopped from earlier vocal recordings) on top of the music in order to punctuate the rhythmic approach and the parts for the vocal "glue".


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## KEM (Jul 17, 2020)

Henu said:


> One thing you should understand is that extreme (death/black mostly) metal vocals are often consider more as an instrument instead of a traditional vocalist, and the rhythmic approach plays a great role in the arrangement. It's also the "glue" between instrumental parts and due having the strongest human element, makes the whole package more interesting to listen to.
> 
> For example, when I do quick demos, I sometimes use a custom Kontakt patch with our vocalist's random syllables (chopped from earlier vocal recordings) on top of the music in order to punctuate the rhythmic approach and the parts for the vocal "glue".



Very good point, this is exactly how I feel about Meshuggah’s vocals, it’s an instrument just as much as the guitars or drums


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## MartinH. (Jul 17, 2020)

FuzyDunlop said:


> Yeah, that's like saying "all classical music sounds the same"



To someone who hates it, it probably does. Just like most music genres. 




visiblenoise said:


> Take out the vocals to any great metal song though, and it would be incredibly empty...yet, conventional singing would also ruin it...



I want to make some black metal and I struggle with this issue as well. On one hand I don't really want to do vocals, but on the other hand I want people to care about the music and the percentage of Blackmetal that is instrumental is very low, and the fully instrumental albums seem to usually be received rather poorly, based on the youtube comments that I've read. Personally I think Blackmetal has a tough time standing on its own feet because its so monotonous, but if you vary it more, it's no longer black metal. I haven't figured out a good solution yet.




Mike Fox said:


> There's just been countless times where I've heard some of the best instrumentals in death metal only for it to be ruined by bad vocalists, and not just bad vocalists, but good ones too. Sometimes I'd rather just listen to the band and not the singer.


I used to listen to mainly death metal but I too grew somewhat sick of those vocals (interestingly I still like black metal vocals). Sadly I also don't like fidly guitar parts anymore so that rules out most instrumental metal too.




FuzyDunlop said:


> When I heard the instrumental version of Crack the Skye I wondered why they even bothered singing at all. But I love both versions now.



That track worked pretty well for me. Almost feels like one of the guitars is taking the role of the vocals and it's not overcompensating with fiddlyness. The kind of instrumental metal that I like is probably super boring for most people. 

There is this dude on youtube who composes metal songs for solo singers that don't have a band and he has the instrumental versions on his channel as a portfolio. I _really _liked this track: 


But I could swear it didn't cut off after 1 minute, not sure what changed there. 




KEM said:


> Very good point, this is exactly how I feel about Meshuggah’s vocals, it’s an instrument just as much as the guitars or drums


I always saw this the same way and didn't care much about the lyrics, but I've since learned that there are metal fans that care a lot about the lyrics and don't see it as "just" another instrument.




Henu said:


> For example, when I do quick demos, I sometimes use a custom Kontakt patch with our vocalist's random syllables (chopped from earlier vocal recordings) on top of the music in order to punctuate the rhythmic approach and the parts for the vocal "glue".



As an experiment I made a similar Kontakt instrument myself and I thought it ads to the blackmetal riffs I was experimenting with. I wonder if it would be possible to add another guitar track that is composed, processed and EQed differently from the primary guitars, so that it fills the role of the vocals in a blackmetal song, but I have doubts that for fans of the genre it would be an acceptable replacement. Do you know an example where this has been tried before?


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## Uiroo (Jul 17, 2020)

I'd like to chime in and just share one of my favorite metal bands, Sumac.
They have a nice mixture of powerchord-single note stuff and very dissonant chords, and I like the screaming, which I often find cliché with other bands. Just a great band.

this specific part is a good example of what I mean:


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## T.j. (Jul 17, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> I want to make some black metal and I struggle with this issue as well. On one hand I don't really want to do vocals, but on the other hand I want people to care about the music and the percentage of Blackmetal that is instrumental is very low, and the fully instrumental albums seem to usually be received rather poorly, based on the youtube comments that I've read. Personally I think Blackmetal has a tough time standing on its own feet because its so monotonous, but if you vary it more, it's no longer black metal. I haven't figured out a good solution yet.




Martin, just write the music you want to make/ that makes you happy.
There's no pay or glory in any of this, so unless you are getting paid for a gig, forget what people want.
The fact they were received poorly could be a motivator to do it right... show them it can be done!
But maybe that's just me... I totally stepped away from the scene 10 years ago now.

I'd actually like to hear some of the vocal-less bands you mentioned.
Could you recommend any that stood out?


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## MartinH. (Jul 17, 2020)

T.j. said:


> Martin, just write the music you want to make/ that makes you happy.
> There's no pay or glory in any of this, so unless you are getting paid for a gig, forget what people want.
> The fact they were received poorly could be a motivator to do it right... show them it can be done!
> But maybe that's just me... I totally stepped away from the scene 10 years ago now.



Fair point, but if it was about the money, I wouldn't pick blackmetal . Making music that really makes _me _happy seems out of reach for somewhere between a long time and forever. I just thought it'd be nice to one day put out some creative work that at least has a chance to be remembered by some people, and I think with blackmetal I'd have the best shot at that and it's something I always wanted to do but never really managed to.





T.j. said:


> I'd actually like to hear some of the vocal-less bands you mentioned.
> Could you recommend any that stood out?



That's the thing though, I can't remember almost any of them because they _don't_ stand out. There's blotted science (which I remember because of Alex Webster's involvement and I used to be a fan of Cannibal Corpse):



Then I remember this ridiculously obscure project that you can't even find on youtube, and wasn't that good anyway: 


Sinnestäter - VII - Encyclopaedia Metallum: The Metal Archives




There's a Youtube channel that uploads a seemingly neverending stream of new blackmetal releases, so if you want to dig through some new music, take a look: 









Black Metal Promotion


Black Metal! All official links are in the description of the videos. At the request or with the permission of bands and/or labels I upload new albums and tr...




www.youtube.com





It's quite likely that I found the few instrumental bm albums that I've encountered on that channel. At the moment I mostly listen to Mgla, Kriegsmaschine, and sometimes Schammasch. I think those are all well worth checking out, but they aren't instrumental.


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## visiblenoise (Jul 17, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> I want to make some black metal and I struggle with this issue as well. On one hand I don't really want to do vocals, but on the other hand I want people to care about the music and the percentage of Blackmetal that is instrumental is very low, and the fully instrumental albums seem to usually be received rather poorly, based on the youtube comments that I've read. Personally I think Blackmetal has a tough time standing on its own feet because its so monotonous, but if you vary it more, it's no longer black metal. I haven't figured out a good solution yet.


I agree that instrumental black metal without a large dose of other influence would be monotonous. Despite the harsh unintelligibility of metal vocals, I think it's basically as important as a pop song's vocal is to a pop song - gonna be the case any time the song consists of sections of repeated riffs, regardless of the number of sections it has.

What's your resistance to putting vocals in?

Love the bands you listed, by the way! I'd not really been feeling metal lately, but Kriegsmachine is really doing it for me right now.


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## Henu (Jul 17, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> I wonder if it would be possible to add another guitar track that is composed, processed and EQed differently from the primary guitars, so that it fills the role of the vocals in a blackmetal song



Let's say that I'm very interested to hear how this would ever turn out to be. :D


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## MartinH. (Jul 17, 2020)

visiblenoise said:


> What's your resistance to putting vocals in?



Only practical considerations: it hurts my throat, I'm not good at blackmetal vocals, writing lyrics that aren't cringy is hard for me, I hate my own voice, and I absolutely don't want to involve other people to fill any of those roles because I want it to be a solo project. If it all was easy for me I wouldn't even consider going instrumental for blackmetal.





Henu said:


> Let's say that I'm very interested to hear how this would ever turn out to be. :D



Probably like a total trainwreck, but I'll let you know . 




By the way, I just stumbled over something that I found interesting: while experimenting with settings on my ampsim I thought "wait a minute, what if I put a multiband compressor on the DI signal before it hits the overdrive, and use a long attack (~170ms) with high ratio on the 100 to 300hz frequency range to make the palm mutes tighter", and that worked surprisingly well I thought. 

If anyone has any other cool ideas to try with a multiband compressor on the DI signal before it hits the sims I'm all ears!


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