# SINE Player Crashes my DAW



## robgb (Feb 26, 2020)

I can load it up and play instruments, but if I try to do anything connected to the online store beyond scrolling through the web page, it crashes Reaper on MacOS 10.14. And Reaper almost never crashes. Anyone else having these problems?


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## cuttime (Feb 26, 2020)

Having the same problem with DP 10.11 on a Mac.


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## jcrosby (Feb 26, 2020)

Just checked this, happens in Studio One. I noticed it happens when closing the UI. I just reported this to [email protected]. Probably a good idea to do the same if you haven't already...


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## ProfoundSilence (Feb 26, 2020)

does it happen using the standalone player? 

I still think integrating a browser is asking for trouble XD


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## robgb (Feb 26, 2020)

I haven't checked the standalone version. But I got to say I'm not in love with this player at this point.


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## novaburst (Feb 27, 2020)

Sine is working fine in standalone plus with DAW Cubase, it takes a little time to open when going on the store but once opened just fine, also working fine in recording, opening and closing inside DAW. 

Not trying to undermine but this could be system specific or lucky build. 

I think that maybe their could be conflict with other unknowns on the your system, 

In saying this I have Sine on master and server and only use it on the server with VEpro nothing seems to be amiss.


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## OT_Tobias (Feb 27, 2020)

Hey folks,
we are tracking (and have already fixed) a number of issues in SINE.
A lot is indeed very, very system-specific. Even more is workflow-specific. For example the freezing issues some people are reporting only happen if you for example replace instruments while the project is playing back. A lot of people would never do that and thus will never have a freeze.
Some sytems seem to react adversely to memory locking - disabling Lock to Memory in the Advanced Settings will make things wayyy more stable for these users.

Please reach out to [email protected] with any issues you are having, with details about how to reproduce them and your system specs.

Please also keep in mind the general fact that if 10 out of a 1000 people have issues, of those 10 maybe 5 will complain in forums, 1 will actually write to support. The 990 without any issues will never post anywhere 

We value all and any feedback very much and it helps tremendously to find specific system incompatibilities.


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## Eptesicus (Feb 27, 2020)

novaburst said:


> Sine is working fine in standalone plus with DAW Cubase, it takes a little time to open when going on the store but once opened just fine, also working fine in recording, opening and closing inside DAW.
> 
> Not trying to undermine but this could be system specific or lucky build.
> 
> ...



There are loads of people on here who have complained about freezing/crashing.

Whilst it could be system specific, that is no excuse. SINE clearly has major stability issues and it is affecting a lot of people.


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## Eptesicus (Feb 27, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Just checked this, happens in Studio One. I noticed it happens when closing the UI. I just reported this to [email protected]. Probably a good idea to do the same if you haven't already...



Yes, closing the UI or clearing the articulation list is one of the biggest causes of crashes for me.

and before anyone says and in relation to OT's post above, yes i am waiting for the playback to stop...


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## Eptesicus (Feb 27, 2020)

OT_Tobias said:


> Hey folks,
> we are tracking (and have already fixed) a number of issues in SINE.
> A lot is indeed very, very system-specific. Even more is workflow-specific. For example the freezing issues some people are reporting only happen if you for example replace instruments while the project is playing back. A lot of people would never do that and thus will never have a freeze.
> Some sytems seem to react adversely to memory locking - disabling Lock to Memory in the Advanced Settings will make things wayyy more stable for these users.
> ...




That is interesting about the memory lock feature and is the first time i have heard about this from OT (!?)

What does the memory lock feature actually do (ie what do you lose by turning it off)?


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## jcrosby (Feb 27, 2020)

OT_Tobias said:


> Hey folks,
> we are tracking (and have already fixed) a number of issues in SINE.
> A lot is indeed very, very system-specific. Even more is workflow-specific. For example the freezing issues some people are reporting only happen if you for example replace instruments while the project is playing back. A lot of people would never do that and thus will never have a freeze.
> Some sytems seem to react adversely to memory locking - disabling Lock to Memory in the Advanced Settings will make things wayyy more stable for these users.
> ...


If _system-specific_, why then do 3 different users, citing 3 different DAWs produce identical behavior? I've turned over other behaviors Windows users report so _system-specific_ is not an accurate way to classify some issues.

Regardless of whether the user is on mac or windows some issues show up between both systems. I can reproduce similar crash, and VEP-related issues Windows users report, on a mac. I've also even sent in video where I could reproduce the same issue multiple times in a row. (Saving a project as a new version is hardly something anyone would qualify as something "people would never do".) That is the sole, and single source of one of several issues I've turned over; _save as. _I've even sent this DAW project in as requested and still await reply.

Instead of taking the position that the user, or their system(s) are to blame you might consider querying your developer instead.


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## Redsa (Feb 27, 2020)

I have only tried it with free layers library but found it very buggy and not a massive fan of the layout and workflow. Whilst can't complain as it was free I wasn't overly impressed with the layers sounds either. Anyone know how to uninstall?


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## ProfoundSilence (Feb 27, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> If _system-specific_, why then do 3 different users, citing 3 different DAWs produce identical behavior? I've turned over other behaviors Windows users report so _system-specific_ is not an accurate way to classify some issues.
> 
> Regardless of whether the user is on mac or windows some issues show up between both systems. I can reproduce similar crash, and VEP-related issues Windows users report, on a mac. I've also even sent in video where I could reproduce the same issue multiple times in a row. (Saving a project as a new version is hardly something anyone would qualify as something "people would never do".) That is the sole, and single source of one of several issues I've turned over; _save as. _I've even sent this DAW project in as requested and still await reply.
> 
> Instead of taking the position that the user, or their system(s) are to blame you might consider querying your developer instead.


to quote a terrific movie "reading - is - fundamental"

what OT said = a lot is system specific and work flow specific
what you decided to interpret that as = it's all system specific

considering what he said, and how you interpreted that, there are errors that are universal, system specific, workflow specific, daw specific, ect. There are 0 correct answers that would have pleased you, and anything that was mentioned would immediately be ignorable by your decision to reduce everything to a binary of "all errors are because of ____ or none of them are"

it's 2020, and arguments online often end up being people trying to argue against points that were never made. "sO yOuR sAyIng?"


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## richardt4520 (Feb 27, 2020)

Eptesicus said:


> That is interesting about the memory lock feature and is the first time i have heard about this from OT (!?)
> 
> What does the memory lock feature actually do (ie what do you lose by turning it off)?



Glad to know about this and I'm definitely going to give it a try. There does seem to be quite a few more than 10 people having issues with SINE though. I know he was just making a generalization. Setup specific or not, that's the double-edged sword of telling people they license a sample library and don't own it. If OT owns it, they need to own it and fix it, or at least figure out what's crashing it for everyone having problems and advise solutions. I know they're working on it. Not knocking them for it.

As far as the design of the app goes, I love it. Tobias is definitely correct in that if no one is reporting it to them directly, it's kind of hard for them to know the extent. I haven't, so I'm going to keep an eye on it and report what I find for my system. I think the app is going to grow to something really cool and the store has already led me to buy 5 or 6 instruments in JXL. The time wasted on hard crashing is making me hesitant to use it, as much as I love the sound of JXL Brass. Hopefully it's just the memory lock feature causing my crashes.


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## Eptesicus (Feb 27, 2020)

richardt4520 said:


> Glad to know about this and I'm definitely going to give it a try. There does seem to be quite a few more than 10 people having issues with SINE though. I know he was just making a generalization. Setup specific or not, that's the double-edged sword of telling people they license a sample library and don't own it. If OT owns it, they need to own it and fix it, or at least figure out what's crashing it for everyone having problems and advise solutions. I know they're working on it. Not knocking them for it.



Yeh, i don't believe the freezing/crashing issues are that uncommon. I understand why they would want to downplay it, but it is obvious from this and other forums that there are some significant stability issues with the player. This isnt just one or two people reporting it, there are loads on here who are having similar issues with freezing/crashing.

I too will try the ram lock thing. I'm surprised they have never mentioned this to me directly as i have been emailing them lots about my freezing issues.




richardt4520 said:


> As far as the design of the app goes, I love it. Tobias is definitely correct in that if no one is reporting it to them directly, it's kind of hard for them to know the extent. I haven't, so I'm going to keep an eye on it and report what I find for my system. I think the app is going to grow to something really cool and the store has already led me to buy 5 or 6 instruments in JXL. The time wasted on hard crashing is making me hesitant to use it, as much as I love the sound of JXL Brass. Hopefully it's just the memory lock feature causing my crashes.



Yes, i want to enjoy it. If it had stability, it would be a great player and a great library. At the moment though i simply cant work with it properly until it is fixed.


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## Dominik (Feb 27, 2020)

I think the main problem is that if you have a crash with some software you bought the last thing you want to hear is: "its related to your hardware setup" or even worse: "It is related to your work flow.."
It´s just irrelevant. Obviously, we complainers have 100s of plug-ins of different vendors running at our systems without problems with our workflow or setup. And you also have to give credit to the expertise and care some of us put into building their systems. You then just don´t want blame on your system. Support should express such things with lot´s of tact. 

But Of course it is understandable that the developer has to project that he is in control and that for most of the people it works out.
IMO OT did rush things a bit too much. Maybe it´s the f***ng black friday thing. You can´t publish a new library after that date. Not months after, because we all have spent our yearly investment money then.
They had to do a presale starting before BF to win some time. 

But I really think and hope that most of the issues are past when the new update arrives. 
I have JXL Brass now running at my Slave with "unlocked" samples in RAM (whatever that means) and could finally begin to work with it and my first trials have been great.

I like the new player but I am not very particular about such things. I would have prefered Kontakt but the capsule engine causes long saving times so it was probably a good idea to try something new. Eventually it will all work out and all of this will be forgotten because when the software runs, only the quality of the library is counting.


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## sourcefor (Feb 27, 2020)

I am having issues in Logic Pro x and I DID report it to OT and they are trying to sort it out for me, I like the player it seems simple and the JXL brass sounds killer so I’ll hang on for a while and see if I can get my system to like it too!


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## jcrosby (Feb 27, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> to quote a terrific movie "reading - is - fundamental"
> 
> what OT said = a lot is system specific and work flow specific
> what you decided to interpret that as = it's all system specific
> ...



Am I frustrated by and did I respond out of frustration? Sure. I have no issue accepting I replied out of emotion.

However there's been a series of evolving explanations. First the delay was the holiday, then it was NAMM, then it was a payment system issue, then was notarization issue. In the meantime they shift priority to releasing a free library.

These are all acceptable reasons however with shifting explanations and rolling out a free product that should take lower priority; citing workflow and system specifics as a source of delay starts to read as a vague explanation.

All bugs are influenced by one of these factors. If a user behavior turns over a bug that's workflow-specific, if bugs are DAW or OS related that's system specific. It doesn't actually acknowledge anything.

As I initially said I've never had an issue with OT, even after a 2 week authorization issue. I don't typically take my frustration to a forum however they've handled this completely differently from any pervious issues. Previously I haven't seen 2 week long gaps in support replies, and never had an issue deflected - stating _users of my DAW weren't reporting *any* issues_; despite there being multiple replies from different users with the same DAW on the same platform reporting similar issues.

As we approach two months, denying an issue that's been publicly reported and explanations evolve, from my perspective OT haven't handled this gracefully. And frankly it starts to come across as somewhat disingenuous.

Logging in every day or two, directing users where to report issues, and acknowledging if an issue is logged even if still unknown isn't difficult. As a developer supporting users on varying platforms is part of what you sign up for. And deflecting issues that have publicly reported isn't necessarily the best way to handle things.

So indeed. I'm guilty of an emotionally charged response... Sure I could have handled it differently, but having an issue previously outright deflected, reading that response hits an oddly similar nerve.

Anyway I don't want hijack the thread. From my perspective OT could handle things with a lot more humility.


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## artomatic (Feb 27, 2020)

Indeed, SINE still crashes my DAW (Pro Tools Ultimate).
Any session having SINE does this. 
Hoping a long-awaited fix is coming real soon!


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## ProfoundSilence (Feb 27, 2020)

edit ehh not worth it.


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## jononotbono (Feb 27, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> edit ehh not worth it.



What isn’t? Giving up is for quitters man!


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## JohnG (Feb 27, 2020)

I'm using it housed in VE Pro and haven't had any problems. Windows 10 PC slave computer. I don't think I've tried to change the patch during playback, so possibly have avoided that one.


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## Thundercat (Feb 27, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> What isn’t? Giving up is for quitters man!


I’d give up chocolate, but I’m no quitter!


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## ProfoundSilence (Feb 27, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> What isn’t? Giving up is for quitters man!


Attempting to reason with somebody who has no incentive to be reasoned with.

Somebody who goes out of their way to choose the worst possible interpretation of anything said, any attempt to reason with would cause you to be on the defensive against things you didn't even say. Ultimately that it's OT's supports' issue - not mine. Apparently he's a magnet for payment issues, and support issues in general - and went out of his way to complain in response to support literally posting that they've got something that should be ready soon to fix many issues. There's no winning unless you fix his client, rewind time and fix his payment issue, and throw in a free cupholder at this point - none of which are within my scope of ability, resources, or obligation. I had responded with an example of why selective emphasis of a word in a sentence changes the meaning, and to uncharitably choose, especially given that English is not their first language is kind of silly. I'm not going to block him, surely he's just having issues here and JXL isn't a cheap library. But I'm not changing his mind, OT isn't changing his mind, nothing will change unless the library is hassle free for him. 

Either way, for those that are curious, read the sentence "I never said she stole the money" with emphasis on a different word each time, and all 7 sentences have significantly different meanings - but are written the exact same. i.e "I never said SHE stole the money" vs "I never said she stole the MONEY"

one implies that she wasn't being accused of being the thief, the other is calling her a thief but implying that you didnt suspect she stole the money, but something else.


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## Dominik (Feb 28, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Am I frustrated by and did I respond out of frustration? Sure. I have no issue accepting I replied out of emotion.
> 
> However there's been a series of evolving explanations. First the delay was the holiday, then it was NAMM, then it was a payment system issue, then was notarization issue. In the meantime they shift priority to releasing a free library.
> 
> ...


Funny, this describes nearly exactly what I experienced. Also the gap in communication which also led me to some forum posts because if support can´t help you there is no other way. 
I also think that releasing a free library isn´t the best thing you can do when you have pressing matters to solve. Even more so when the free stuff is concipated to promote a new product which is not ready yet.


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## OT_Tobias (Feb 28, 2020)

Hi folks,

please let me clarify a few things.

I wrote that the issues people are seeing tend to be system specific. That means they occur only on specific systems. That does not mean they are necessarily caused by something being wrong on these systems. They simply do not happen on other systems.
Similarly with issues that are workflow-specific. Following a specific workflow will make these issues appear. That does not mean that workflow itself is to blame or is even not a/the correct workflow. It just means that if you don't do X, Y won't happen.

And of course it does NOT mean these issues are not SINE Player issues, let alone that we're not looking into them and fixing them. On the contrary, I expressly stated that we are doing so.

Then there are issues that are neither system- nor workflow specific. So yes, of course issues exist that will happen to everyone, I never said these did not exist. But "global" issues existing does not mean system/workflow-specific issues can not exist and vice versa. So if "your" issue is a global one, then obviously my comments about workflow/system-specific issues would simply not apply to that issue.

About the numbers. I had hoped it would have been obvious, but my "1000 users of which 10 have issues" are not the actual numbers. We have considerably more than 1000 users on SINE Player  Obviously there are more than 10 people that have issues. I was talking about the fact that people that have issues are more likely to write in forums, though not more likely to write to support, for whatever reason.

There was a question about memory locking and what it does: Memory lock prevents the operating system from swapping the content to the page file when RAM gets tight. It turns out the system is not perfect and is made worse by super powerful systems that have a lot of RAM. That's why a lot of the issues we're seeing affect people with very powerful systems. As I said, that stuff is being worked on right now. If your drive where the page file is located is fast, then you can disable that option for now as in general use and under no very high RAM pressure it will _currently_ give you better performance in a lot of cases. However, that is FOR NOW until we've fixed the underlying issue.

As to why I did not mention this to some people in private conversations: I only knew since the day before yesterday.

I understand people's concern over us seemingly prioritizing LAYERS over updates.
First of all, our editors do not work on SINE Player. Different people, different teams. Also even though SINE Player appears as one big thing, the collection it plays back are still a separate element. We can work on LAYERS/JXL Brass independently of SINE.
Second, without pointing a finger at anyone (and certainly not at people here who DID reach out), there is the continuing problem that a lot of users will simply not email support, and if they eventually do, never reply to our questions. The LAYERS release has helped tremendously in nailing down issues, because a lot of users downloaded it and a lot of users reached out to us and helped figure things out. So from my view (dealing with all support cases as well as SINE development), LAYERS has helped a huge, huge lot.

Lastly, I know it sounds like an excuse, but we _are_ a pretty small company. If I do not reply to an email immediately, it is because I am researching stuff. For a while in these cases I replied with "thank, I'm looking at it and will be in touch". Guess what - half the customers got angry replying back with "why the fuck are you bothering me if you have no news". Half the customers appreciated it. Now I only reply when I have news. Half the customers hate it and would prefer more emails, even if I did not have actual news, half the customers like it that way. Me not writing status emails all day means I can test more, so I prefer that. Yesterday I spent pretty much the whole day testing a new memory allocation system. For comparison: 1 SINE instance, all instruments, 3 mic positions. SINE 1.0.1 loading time: 10 minutes. SINE 1.0.2 loading time: 1:10 minutes. Some small niggles to iron out, but it is looking _REALLY_ good.

We are fully committed to SINE Player, it is not going anywhere and we are working our hardest on making it perfect for everyone.

I can only repeat what I said multiple times: Please reach out with any issues, with clear steps to reproduce, your system specs and attaching all crashlogs, etc...
I look at everything and in a lot of cases will ask you for a Skype session to nail things down directly on your system.

PS: I forgot to address the shifting priorities: The holidays indeed had an impact on development, but NAMM and the payment issues were not influencing SINE development at all. Again, totally different team. Notarization delays are still essentially what is holding up the 1.0.2 release at this time. In essence, we have to change a lot of stuff in the backend to make SINE Player notarize correctly. That in turn led to issues in the VST version. And fixing those issues without breaking hardened runtime right now is what makes things complex. We're on it and I'm probably the person who is most eager to get that version out to everyone. There has been no priority in releasing LAYERS instead of doing an update - two different teams that have nothing to do with each other.


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## zimm83 (Feb 28, 2020)

I a-m still Hoping OT will also continue making new Kontakt libraries. OT stuff is so fantastic...for me the Best vsts....been playing with for years...Still Hoping...


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## Eptesicus (Feb 28, 2020)

OT_Tobias said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> please let me clarify a few things.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the update.

It sounds like progress is being made. Hopefully the memory allocation issues are the main cause of freezing (I think they are based on my experience with SINE).

It's a shame people are being rude/swearing at you in email replies. That is not cool!

Im going to try and run it with the ram lock feature disabled over the next few days and report to your via the support email how i get on.


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## Thundercat (Feb 28, 2020)

I think it’s utterly fantastic OT posts here at all - and regularly enough that we know they mean to fix issues ASAP.

Let’s cut them a break. I bought the library too and I’m giving them the breathing room they need and deserve.

Sure, it’s frustrating SINE has lots of problems still - but who honestly thought a brand new 1.0.0 player would work perfectly out if the box? No software in the history of the world works perfectly at v 1.0.0. If you didn’t know you were a quasi beta tester - you do now...relax guys. It will all get sorted!


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## Eptesicus (Feb 28, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> I think it’s utterly fantastic OT posts here at all - and regularly enough that we know they mean to fix issues ASAP.
> 
> Let’s cut them a break. I bought the library too and I’m giving them the breathing room they need and deserve.
> 
> Sure, it’s frustrating SINE has lots of problems still - but who honestly thought a brand new 1.0.0 player would work perfectly out if the box? No software in the history of the world works perfectly at v 1.0.0. If you didn’t know you were a quasi beta tester - you do now...relax guys. It will all get sorted!



Whilst i agree somewhat, you will never be able to use reasons like this to justify or counteract the frustration felt by people who have spent hundreds of dollars on something that isn't working correctly, especially when it has been over 2 months since release.

I have no doubt OT will get it sorted eventually, but that doesn't mean much to users at the moment.

It looks like they are making progress, so hopefully soon we can all enjoy SINE and JXL brass to its full potential!


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## Thundercat (Feb 28, 2020)

I have spent hundreds of dollars on something that isn’t working correctly. This library in fact. So yeah, that argument works for me.

However, I respect your point of view and I understand your frustrations.


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## jcrosby (Feb 28, 2020)

OT_Tobias said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> please let me clarify a few things.
> 
> ...


Thanks for following up. And thanks for tolerating my _emo_ freak out... (Apologies as well...)
It's good to know that Layers is at last proving useful in tracking down some of the issues. I appreciate the explanation as to why you guys have been hesitant to reply to emails quicker than usual, hopefully you can at last understand how it's easy to misinterpret silence without having some context... (Not implying things should change, I totally see the rationale now that we have some understanding.) Hope it's going well all things aside, and thanks again.


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## Thundercat (Feb 28, 2020)

The greatest words ever spoken - forgive them for they know not what they do.

it does help when you understand why things are happening. Nice shift in attitude.


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## robgb (Feb 28, 2020)

OT_Tobias said:


> There was a question about memory locking and what it does: Memory lock prevents the operating system from swapping the content to the page file when RAM gets tight. It turns out the system is not perfect and is made worse by super powerful systems that have a lot of RAM. That's why a lot of the issues we're seeing affect people with very powerful systems. As I said, that stuff is being worked on right now. If your drive where the page file is located is fast, then you can disable that option for now as in general use and under no very high RAM pressure it will _currently_ give you better performance in a lot of cases. However, that is FOR NOW until we've fixed the underlying issue.


I've looked in options and don't see a place to turn this off. Apparently I'm blind?

EDIT: Still no luck on the memory lock thing, but I opened the standalone and it works fine. After that, I opened it in Reaper again and it seems to be working fine there as well. Had multiple crashes until now. Maybe opening it in standalone did something? Seems unlikely, but who knows?


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## jbuhler (Feb 28, 2020)

robgb said:


> I've looked in options and don't see a place to turn this off. Apparently I'm blind?
> 
> EDIT: Still no luck on the memory lock thing, but I opened the standalone and it works fine. After that, I opened it in Reaper again and it seems to be working fine there as well. Had multiple crashes until now. Maybe opening it in standalone did something? Seems unlikely, but who knows?


Option tab, then under the DFD Preload Buffer, there's an "advanced settings" button. If you press that you'll see an option for memory lock.


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## robgb (Feb 28, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> Option tab, then under the DFD Preload Buffer, there's an "advanced settings" button. If you press that you'll see an option for memory lock.


I must have a blind spot. I stared at it three times before I saw it. Thanks.


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## jbuhler (Feb 28, 2020)

robgb said:


> I must have a blind spot. I stared at it three times before I saw it. Thanks.


Me too! I scoured the OT website three times today for the Sine manual without finding it. And there it was just sitting under support just like you'd expect.


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## Eptesicus (Feb 29, 2020)

robgb said:


> I've looked in options and don't see a place to turn this off. Apparently I'm blind?
> 
> EDIT: Still no luck on the memory lock thing, but I opened the standalone and it works fine. After that, I opened it in Reaper again and it seems to be working fine there as well. Had multiple crashes until now. Maybe opening it in standalone did something? Seems unlikely, but who knows?



Its very sporadic

I used it for a day with no issues the other day.

Then the next day it froze when clearing the articulation list.

I'm going to test it with the memoryock feature off this week and see if I get any crashes.


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## AlainTH (Mar 12, 2020)

a small company who cant fix the problems but saying they try, maybe, but the product is expansive and the problems are about choice of not use kontakt before sine work corectly..


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## Dominik (Mar 12, 2020)

AlainTH said:


> a small company who cant fix the problems but saying they try, maybe, but the product is expansive and the problems are about choice of not use kontakt before sine work corectly..


I think they are in good company... Let´s think about East West, Native Instruments and Spitfire Audio. They all had their share of issues with sample players. Kontakt was the first one and the first I had issues. Play was a complete mess in the beginning, Hans Zimmer Strings of spitfire was faulty for nearly a whole year and now Sine. I think they are all overconfident and they miscalculate the investment it takes to launch a new player. You know, they need to pay a whole group of people and the longer it takes them to come out with a functioning product the more expensive it gets. 
I think OT would have profited more of some additional development time but now it is how it is and we have to be patient. 

However what I don´t understand is why they advertise the product when it is obviously not finished.
Just more disappointed users on the list.


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## AlainTH (Mar 12, 2020)

exactly the problem is to not use kontakt until selling working product


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## Dominik (Mar 12, 2020)

AlainTH said:


> exactly the problem is to not use kontakt until selling working product


You can´t expect them to setup a new library in Kontakt and than after a few weeks import it to the new player. This is not economic. The whole point of them doing a new player is the easier creation of new libraries which in the long run will lead to better libraries for less money.
Furthermore, they need of course a real library to test their new player.

By the way, in my opinion, if all issues will have been adressed, the sine player will be a real improvement to Kontakt. 
I also have been sceptical about the new spitfire player and now it works fine and even has nks compatibility. Much better handling of the spitfire libraries than in Kontakt. 
Sine is even better imo.


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## ProfoundSilence (Mar 12, 2020)

given NI's recent moves, we should get ready for a wave of 1.0 sampler/romplers as more developers try to distance themselves from kontakt/NI

I think we exaggerate how much it'll effect kontakt's ecosystem - but every move bumps developers further and further, and every big jolt causes a few to switch to alternatives. 

I'd like to see spitfire/sine expand to something licensable by other developers, but fat chance of that. If we could get some synchron player features added to sine and allow other developers into the ecosystem it would be the death of kontakt for orchestral libraries. 

I should do a comparison between Berlin brass and JXL brass on resources vs sample set


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## Dominik (Mar 12, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> given NI's recent moves, we should get ready for a wave of 1.0 sampler/romplers as more developers try to distance themselves from kontakt/NI
> 
> I think we exaggerate how much it'll effect kontakt's ecosystem - but every move bumps developers further and further, and every big jolt causes a few to switch to alternatives.
> 
> ...


I am not sure if it is a mere political or economical question why developers distance themselves from Kontakt. I think Kontakt, actually intended as a sampler is way too complex for orchestral libraries. 
An orchestral library is surely using only a fraction of Kontakts functions. 
The complexity can also be a downside. Especially Orchestral Tools did not have much luck with it imo. Capsule was very hungry on RAM and caused very long saving times at my system. A project with 15+ sintrument tracks with capsule loaded caused saving times of up to a minute which is not acceptable. 
So they had to do something.

By the way, Spitfire used the service of some company calles us2. I would think they are open to service other developers, too.
But the whole point in creating a player of their owwn is to be able to fit it exactly to the needs. So I am not sure if it is that easy to sell the players to other companies.And would they be better off with that than with Kontakt?


I think you should wait for the next Sine update before you do a test.


----------



## ProfoundSilence (Mar 12, 2020)

Dominik said:


> I am not sure if it is a mere political or economical question why developers distance themselves from Kontakt. I think Kontakt, actually intended as a sampler is way too complex for orchestral libraries.
> An orchestral library is surely using only a fraction of Kontakts functions.
> The complexity can also be a downside. Especially Orchestral Tools did not have much luck with it imo. Capsule was very hungry on RAM and caused very long saving times at my system. A project with 15+ sintrument tracks with capsule loaded caused saving times of up to a minute which is not acceptable.
> So they had to do something.
> ...


its pretty stable on my system, but just for giggles - I loaded up a trumpet from berlin brass multi and set up nearly identicle articulations(I used a crescendo instead of rips) and it says "0.81"(829.4mb) gb on kontakt and 787.1 mb(0.76 gb). Also the resource monitor in reaper went down 1800mb when removing the track for BB, and went down 1500 when removing jxl.

which is pretty remarkable given: longs have 3 dynamic layers and shorts have 4 - while jxl has 5 layers on most artciulations(only 3 for sfz/marcs) as well as a further recorded lowest/highest note range.

Also playing the legato from the multi vs sine is a staggering difference of 5x cpu (0.02% cpu for jxl) and (0.07-0.10% for berlin brass) according to the performance monitor in reaper.

=================================================

300 mb might not seem like a whole lot of gaining, but that's just 1 instrument, and that's actually a lot of articulations sans legato. I think that would be a significant amount of savings over an entire template.



Not the most scientific test, and in reality what we REALLY need is a single instrument from OT's berlin series to compare head to head - This will be the best time to actually make any real comparisons.

Otherwise, Loading a4 horns, a3 trumpets, a3 trombones, tuba for both libraries, and reducing JXL's to the same amount of dynamic layers would probably be the best comparison.


================================================

Also load times for sine(to actually open the plugin) arenearly instant, I think when someone made a comment about it I recorded a short snarky video showing exactly what "using" it looked like - and I think I added the VSTi, picked my instrument, had the entire articulation list loadded and was playing legato in something silly like 7 seconds.


----------



## Dominik (Mar 12, 2020)

It´s not that easy to compare RAM between different players. DFD settings could be different. 
But it´s known that capsule itself has a lot of hunger for RAM.

You mentioned that Sine is stable at your system, have you put some more instances in a heavy cpu load project yet? Because at my system I get heavy drop-outs when cpu loadis above
25 %


----------



## Eptesicus (Mar 12, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> its pretty stable on my system,



When you say "pretty stable" this would imply that you have had some crashes as well no?


----------



## ProfoundSilence (Mar 12, 2020)

Eptesicus said:


> When you say "pretty stable" this would imply that you have had some crashes as well no?


Can count them on 1 hand - and it was generally me trying to get it to break. 

If I rapidly try to load/unload things into ram it can crash. 

One time I had every instrument/articulation loaded and using the mic remote turned on a bunch of mics at once which crashed me too. But to be fair, I everytime i cliked that button it was like 12 gigs of ram being added, so suddenly trying to load 50-60gb wasn't a smart move hahaha. 


Also one time when I was clicking off the RR rapidly, sometimes double clicking them off then back on - mostly just me being impatient. I've never had it crash adding or removing anything - unless I tried to add or remove things while it was still completing it's last action(i.e. the ram was showing in red). I had that one time I crashed trying to open a project, but i haven't been able to reproduce it - so I'm not sure if it was sine, because it worked after that.


----------



## robgb (Mar 12, 2020)

Dominik said:


> n orchestral library is surely using only a fraction of Kontakts functions.


Well, I'm no coder, so I don't really know the answer to this, but Sample Modeling's Solo & Ensemble Strings library seems to be utilizing Kontakt to the fullest. There are so many controls available that it's almost overwhelming, until you realize how much control you have.


----------



## ProfoundSilence (Mar 12, 2020)

robgb said:


> Well, I'm no coder, so I don't really know the answer to this, but Sample Modeling's Solo & Ensemble Strings library seems to be utilizing Kontakt to the fullest. There are so many controls available that it's almost overwhelming, until you realize how much control you have.


SM is also [barely] samples. Hence the "modeling" part of the name. It functions quiet well in kontakt because it uses a very small set of samples and a bagillion filters under the hood instead. Something 90% useless to an actual sample library(due to phase issues)


----------



## sourcefor (Mar 12, 2020)

Dominik said:


> You can´t expect them to setup a new library in Kontakt and than after a few weeks import it to the new player. This is not economic. The whole point of them doing a new player is the easier creation of new libraries which in the long run will lead to better libraries for less money.
> Furthermore, they need of course a real library to test their new player.
> 
> By the way, in my opinion, if all issues will have been adressed, the sine player will be a real improvement to Kontakt.
> ...


Yes I agree, I have patience and will wait for it to work properly until I buy more JXL libraries, but I do love the sound!


----------



## Dominik (Mar 12, 2020)

sourcefor said:


> Yes I agree, I have patience and will wait for it to work properly until I buy more JXL libraries, but I do love the sound!


You think there is coming more? 
Well I think I am saturated with libraries right now. 
Maybe JXL Strings would be tempting but I would really have to work hard to convince myself that I need another string library and JXL Brass works very well in combination with Hans Zimmer Strings despite the different stages.


----------



## Dominik (Mar 12, 2020)

robgb said:


> Well, I'm no coder, so I don't really know the answer to this, but Sample Modeling's Solo & Ensemble Strings library seems to be utilizing Kontakt to the fullest. There are so many controls available that it's almost overwhelming, until you realize how much control you have.


Well, you can make an orchestral library use more of the stuff in Kontakt but the question is if this makes things better. Just more CPU usage for a questionable benefit. Never used all this sounddesign stuff from 8Dio e.g. (chaos engine ...) 
And you can see that the new players out there are much more spartanic than normal Kontakt libraries. Just the articulations, a mixer and some sample manipulation tools. Much better browser and features desgned to benefit just the library in question.
Actually, I have no interest in many features in an orchestral library. I expect it to sound great out of the box. JXL Brass is such a library. I have to do no tweaking. It just sounds right.


----------



## novaburst (Mar 12, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I'd like to see spitfire/sine expand to something licensable by other developers, but fat chance of that. If we could get some synchron player features added to sine and allow other developers into the ecosystem it would be the death of kontakt for orchestral libraries.



I think this is a double edge sword one you may get developers wanting to create for that player, that's a good thing, two suddenly there will be many players with a similar build as Synchron or Sine that is not such a good thing.

But I do think it's healthy for development to be independent as I think there is a lot more pease of mind.


----------



## robgb (Mar 12, 2020)

Dominik said:


> Well, you can make an orchestral library use more of the stuff in Kontakt but the question is if this makes things better.


I can only say this: SM's strings library is definitely better.


----------



## José Herring (Mar 12, 2020)

robgb said:


> I can only say this: SM's strings library is definitely better.


I was not overjoyed by the sound of this library but I definitely think it sounds workable. What's the learning curve on these? Is it easy to blend with other libraries?


----------



## Peter Satera (Mar 12, 2020)

Dominik said:


> JXL Brass works very well in combination with Hans Zimmer Strings despite the different stages.


Really? I'm finding it a little odd in places. Are you doing anything to HZ or JXL to make them sit together better?


----------



## ProfoundSilence (Mar 12, 2020)

robgb said:


> I can only say this: SM's strings library is definitely better.




not sure if I would use definitely, SM strings have simply not sounded great to me in general - albeit passable for certain passages but it's not the end of the road for anything.


----------



## AlainTH (Mar 17, 2020)

Dominik said:


> You can´t expect them to setup a new library in Kontakt and than after a few weeks import it to the new player. This is not economic. The whole point of them doing a new player is the easier creation of new libraries which in the long run will lead to better libraries for less money.
> Furthermore, they need of course a real library to test their new player.
> 
> By the way, in my opinion, if all issues will have been adressed, the sine player will be a real improvement to Kontakt.
> ...


just bought Sptfire whitacre choir, nothing to complain, the player is well thought, and no crash!... night and day compared to jxl brass... serious product of serious developpers at the good price.


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## novaburst (Mar 23, 2020)

Heads up New update for SINE Player, Junkie XL Brass, Layers


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## ProfoundSilence (Mar 23, 2020)

sounds like abandonware to me! no updates in the last day, ba humbug!
/sarcasm

I hope @OrchestralTools @OT_Tobias will try to push out a few (what I hope) simpler QoL features like midi assignable parameters(such as microphones)


----------



## vms (Mar 24, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> given NI's recent moves, we should get ready for a wave of 1.0 sampler/romplers as more developers try to distance themselves from kontakt/NI
> 
> I think we exaggerate how much it'll effect kontakt's ecosystem - but every move bumps developers further and further, and every big jolt causes a few to switch to alternatives.
> 
> ...


Care to explain what NI's recent moves are?
I'm just being curious.


----------



## ProfoundSilence (Mar 24, 2020)

vms said:


> Care to explain what NI's recent moves are?
> I'm just being curious.








NI will no longer activate discontinued products from May 31st (NOW FIXED]


There are emails going out from NI notifying people that from 31st May some products can no longer be activated. From the email: "Nach dem 31. Mai wird es nicht mehr möglich sein, einige ältere und mittlerweile eingestellte Produkte zu registrieren. Dazu gehören u.a. Guitar Rig Version 1-2...




vi-control.net


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## nav (May 5, 2020)

I tried with this program. I really tried.

1. Installed Sine Player in March. Crashes continuously.

2. Contacted Orchestral Tools and took a screenshot of the crash log. Sent it to them.

3. May 2020. Finds this forum thread and sees that I am not alone.

4. Gets email from Orchestral Tools that says they have an update. Check their website where it says under Performance and Reliability Improvements:
"SINE Player does not crash anymore when going to the browser, then immediately elsewhere."

5. Updates SINE Player. Opens up program. Crashes.

6. Laughs derisively at this company and continue to use Eastwest.


----------



## Eptesicus (May 5, 2020)

nav said:


> I tried with this program. I really tried.
> 
> 1. Installed Sine Player in March. Crashes continuously.
> 
> ...



The update certainly improved things, but it still isn't 100% stable. 

I do hope they are continuing to work on this for the next update.


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## novaburst (May 5, 2020)

I think it would be a good idea to state what machine you have Mac or PC, plus how you have the Sine player setup in your system. 

I have no such issues in a Windows10 and a Windows 7 working inside VEpro I do not have all the instruments but I just do not experience crashes or issues like what I read about here. 

VEpro plays a very important role I think in stability hosting most or all of your plugins. 
I do use it local but dump most of my plugins on the server. 

My reason is that it appears to handle plugins FX and library's better than the DAW mine being Cubase. 

I think VEpro distributes CPU load much better that the DAW. 

Obviously once VEpro is working solid as sometimes it has its own quirks to deal with too but once its working I think it's unbeatable as a host and I think it really contributes to stability. 

I think generally any DAW is better off when the load is shared between another host. 

IMHO I still think a server or more is the best way forward for stability and I understand that this is contrary to most people s idea esp if you have a big monster of a machine. 

To me a DAW is more of a crafting tool and ihe less load it has the better it works.


----------



## novaburst (May 5, 2020)

ORCHESTRAL TOOLS


Virtual instruments for your music productions - Recorded in the world's finest studios




www.orchestraltools.com





New update just arived 1.0 3


----------



## blackzeroaudio (May 5, 2020)

Downloaded the update was hoping to fix my recent issues but it has not. 

For whatever reason, lately Sine Player has been maxing out the CPU for the VE Pro tab (instance) I have it assigned to. 

None of the other tabs/instances have any issues. Only the one with JXL Brass loaded. 

Anyone else have a similar experience?


----------



## jcrosby (May 5, 2020)

I'm going to install the latest tonight. Will post back how it goes for me... The last version was stable for me. (Although with a few bugs that I learned to avoid.)

People having issues should post their OS and DAW...


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## JoeWatkin (May 17, 2020)

I wasn't averse to switching to SINE, and I quite like the simplistic layout, but I've just used it in my template and on first three attempts it's crashed to desktop... I'm on Windows 10 + Cubase Pro setup. Back to good ol' Kontakt it is then!


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## samphony (May 17, 2020)

It runs stable on my mac pro 6,1 macos 10.14.6 and Logic Pro.


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## Eptesicus (May 17, 2020)

JoeWatkin said:


> I wasn't averse to switching to SINE, and I quite like the simplistic layout, but I've just used it in my template and on first three attempts it's crashed to desktop... I'm on Windows 10 + Cubase Pro setup. Back to good ol' Kontakt it is then!



The 1.02 update certainly improved stability a lot for me. BUT i still had a crash the other day and on the odd occasion Cubase freezes on exiting due to SINE (the frequency that this happens has reduced a lot since the updates though).

Need to try the latest version and see how that goes.


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## Eptesicus (May 20, 2020)

ARGH, this player is still driving me nuts.

been working everyday on a project for a few weeks with ZERO issues. Literally zero crashes and Cubase closed instantly every time.

Today i wanted to add some Junkie XL brass.

First of all, i tried to duplicate a SINE player track, which crashed Cubase.

Then i realised i hadn't updated from 1.02 to 1.03 so i did that and then the duplicating worked (could still be sporadic issues which i will need to monitor), but then once again i close the project and Cubase freezes.

Literally EVER Y time i have closed this project in the last few weeks (which is a lot) there has been no issue.

As soon as i introduce SINE it introduces problems.

Even more frustrating is that you cannot then use Cubase or SINE for about 10 minutes as even after ending the process, it stays stuck for about that long before it disapears properly.

Really am sick of this player now.


----------



## Sears Poncho (May 20, 2020)

Tried their free orch. offering/teaser. Crashed my DAW. Until I saw this thread, I thought it was God's way of telling me not to even look at any more sample libraries.


----------



## MartinH. (May 20, 2020)

Eptesicus said:


> ARGH, this player is still driving me nuts.
> 
> been working everyday on a project for a few weeks with ZERO issues. Literally zero crashes and Cubase closed instantly every time.
> 
> ...



Does this happen with a new project using just SINE? If not, you might have a good repro-case here and it might be worth sending your project to OT to help them find that bug. 

I'll hold off on testing SINE for a couple more months I think...


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## Eptesicus (May 20, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Does this happen with a new project using just SINE? If not, you might have a good repro-case here and it might be worth sending your project to OT to help them find that bug.
> 
> I'll hold off on testing SINE for a couple more months I think...



It happens anytime SINE is involved. 

It still clearly has issues with unloading the samples.

I've tested this by looking at task manager when closing cubase and you can see the ram usage dropping until it gets stuck, which must be a sine instrument/instance . Literally everytime I closed this project before introducing sine it closed within a few seconds.


----------



## Eptesicus (May 20, 2020)

Pretty repeatable. Just worked on it and then closed it again. Watched the ram count down as its closing and bamn, gets to 9.5gb (which is roughly what the SINE instruments i have loaded add up to) and it stops responding....

I guess one thing that may work is saving and then unloading the articulations before exiting (without saving again). Very irritating to have to do that on such an expensive library though.


----------



## Eptesicus (May 20, 2020)

Sears Poncho said:


> Tried their free orch. offering/teaser. Crashed my DAW. Until I saw this thread, I thought it was God's way of telling me not to even look at any more sample libraries.



Yep, its still pretty unstable.

I think they may need to hire some better coders or maybe get some outside help.


----------



## novaburst (May 20, 2020)

Eptesicus said:


> Yep, its still pretty unstable.
> 
> I think they may need to hire some better coders or maybe get some outside help.



Still getting good stability on a W10 build with 1.03 but not saying some users are running into issues.

I would day this if you upgraded windows 10 from a windows 7 machine i think it wil add to your problems, Microsoft has alraedy given advice that it should be a new build, so i also have a windows 7 master but i do not intend to install W10 on it becuase that will be a down grade and will possibly give many issues with software.

I think this whole issue with W10 on a W 7 build throws another spanner in the works and is quite possibly 
contibuting to issues with software.

I dont think this type of situation can be overlooked, i think and or starting to understand that OS should more or less be in its proper inveriment to give the best chance of stability.

Thats not saying Sine does not have its quirks but like every new software it will grow and get even better.

I also think its about what or how our machine likes to work becuase some are having different experiences it may tell us that we have different setups.

So i opened Kontakt in Cubase a few weeks ago just to quickly checkout a sound or somthing but when i went to shut down, Cubase took ages i even thought it crashed, so go figure, was it a conflict quite possible but what with.


----------



## Eptesicus (May 20, 2020)

novaburst said:


> Still getting good stability on a W10 build with 1.03 but not saying some users are running into issues.
> 
> I would day this if you upgraded windows 10 from a windows 7 machine i think it wil add to your problems, Microsoft has alraedy given advice that it should be a new build, so i also have a windows 7 master but i do not intend to install W10 on it becuase that will be a down grade and will possibly give many issues with software.
> 
> ...




I'm using a completely clean windows 10 install so its nothing to do with that.

All i can say is that without SINE in a project, my set up is 100% stable and projects close almost instantly.

There is some issue with SINE unloading the samples out of the RAM and this is the issue i am having. They even said as much on this forum, but they still have not properly fixed it, which is very worrying.

You can literally watch it happen when closing the project. The ram counts down until it reaches roughly the amount loaded in SINE and then stops responding. If you try and close Cubase through task manager and end the process it says "access is denied" and then takes a further 10 minutes to properly dissapear.

I know for a fact that is SINE causing the issue, because after doing this, (whilst Cubase is still in the process tree), if i open SINE standalone i cant access the store, which is what happens when you have another instance open. As soon as Cubase finally disappears from task manager, i can open SINE and access the store again. We can therefore surmise that SINE is still stuck open in Cubase as it is frozen.

I use Kontakt, Engine 2, Vienna Instruments, Synchron Player, Ujam player etc and i cant remember the last time i had any issues with any of them stability wise. SINE is the outlier.

There are numerous reports of SINE causing crashes (as per this thread), so whilst i'm sure some people maybe ok, there are lots of us that are not and it *IS* SINE that is at fault, not our machines/set ups.


----------



## PerryD (May 20, 2020)

This loading / unloading issue sounds very similar to what I experienced (for many months) with Spitfire's BBCSO. It is _finally_ working well in my Win 10 pro system. i7-8700k 64gb ram Studio One 4.6 I am considering JXL Brass. I tried the latest (1.0.3) Sine Player with Layers. It seems to behave but Layers is not much of a ram / cpu challenge compared to JXL Brass. Are there any Studio One users on Win 10 that are successfully using JXLB?


----------



## novaburst (May 20, 2020)

Eptesicus said:


> There is some issue with SINE unloading the samples out of the RAM and this is the issue i am having. They even said as much on this forum, but they still have not properly fixed it, which is very worrying.



On a general note to premonition of stability in our system good motherboard and ram plays a good part in that, mixed ram can work for the most part but when things get complexed we can run into problems, overclocking, and heat can add to instability, also PSU, all these factors can also play a part in messing up our system. 

I think generally we forget how we have upgraded or customised our system and what settings we have made in the bios that also may contribute to instability. 

But can you imagine what hell that can be for developers not knowing how we have played about with our system. 

Yes one software can work well but another can course the system to crash that in part may or may not be the developers fault. 

What I am saying is on a general note note just about Sine. 

I think when we do run into issues we should turn everything back to its default settings and keep it there until we find a a solution that solution may or may not come from the developer.


----------



## Eptesicus (May 21, 2020)

novaburst said:


> On a general note to premonition of stability in our system good motherboard and ram plays a good part in that, mixed ram can work for the most part but when things get complexed we can run into problems, overclocking, and heat can add to instability, also PSU, all these factors can also play a part in messing up our system.
> 
> I think generally we forget how we have upgraded or customised our system and what settings we have made in the bios that also may contribute to instability.
> 
> ...



Can you stop insinuating that the issue is my end? What do you gain by that? It most certainly is not my machine. I have not overclocked anything (expressly because stability is the most important thing to me) and i build all my PC's myself and have been doing so for years so i know what i am doing. You are just coming off as a little condesending and weirdly defnesive/blind to the possibility that the issue is the player, despite numerous reports of it crashing people's systems.

This build has been 100% stable for years. I honestly cannot remember the last time i had a crash or issue before SINE came along and it is only SINE that is causing Cubase to freeze.

The issue is 100% SINE.


----------



## Eptesicus (May 21, 2020)

PerryD said:


> This loading / unloading issue sounds very similar to what I experienced (for many months) with Spitfire's BBCSO. It is _finally_ working well in my Win 10 pro system. i7-8700k 64gb ram Studio One 4.6 I am considering JXL Brass. I tried the latest (1.0.3) Sine Player with Layers. It seems to behave but Layers is not much of a ram / cpu challenge compared to JXL Brass. Are there any Studio One users on Win 10 that are successfully using JXLB?



Interestingly, that is a very similar spec to me (8700 non k and 64gb ram).


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## Eptesicus (May 21, 2020)

Interestingly (and i will need to repeat this a few more times to be sure), but i tried closing Cubase after saving, but before clearing the instrument lists from all the SINE instances (so no samples are loaded in SINE) and both times i have done that, Cubase closed within a few seconds like normal and did not get stuck.

If this is repeatable and always the case, this means there is some issue with how Cubase closes SINE/purges the instruments from memory.

If this keeps working, it is at least a workaround but not ideal. Saves me having to waste time force closing it and waiting for it properly close itself etc (also means the project is in the latest project list rather than having to find it manually...)


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## novaburst (May 21, 2020)

Eptesicus said:


> Can you stop insinuating that the issue is my end?



Nope not insulting you, sorry if it seems that way, 

Let's hope the issue gets sorted.


----------



## Eptesicus (May 21, 2020)

novaburst said:


> Nope not insulting you, sorry if it seems that way,
> 
> Let's hope the issue gets sorted.



I didn't say insulting ? 

I said you are *insinuating* that the issue is that there is a problem with my PC, when evidently it is clearly SINE that is the issue.


----------



## novaburst (May 21, 2020)

Eptesicus said:


> I said you are *insinuating*



Yep thats me quick on the trigger and not proof reading



Eptesicus said:


> If this is repeatable and always the case, this means there is some issue with how Cubase closes SINE/purges the instruments from memory.
> 
> If this keeps working, it is at least a workaround but not ideal. Saves me having to waste time force closing it



How is this working out, nice hack by the way


----------



## markwind (May 26, 2020)

Today I installed Sine as well, unfortunately similar crashes happen here on Windows 10. It happened on two occasions. Once upon muting and unmuting (not reproduced) from within the daw(altough I may have tried opening SINE.. not sure), and another time when tweaking settings inside SINE (env etc). It unfortunately crashes my DAW completely. On two different libs with low memory requirements. Also it happened twice that no sounds were played upon midi playback and playing and needed to reload the patch before sound came back from Sine. Not sure yet what I did to trigger that issue

I really hope a good grasp has been made with the crashing issues - I definitely need to be able to trust the software I work with . That being said, I totally understand the humble beginnings for new players. I just hope that all relevant resources be put on fixing and avoiding crashes.

Short note - no other software or vst has crashed my daw in years. But I'm definitely excited for a new player to be joining the ranks. I totally dig the layout with its flexibility in functionality.

Edit: literally reproduced the crash moments after posting. Opening the player upon playback from within the DAW doesn't seem to suit it. Crashes the whole DAW.

Until that is fixed I can't properly use Sine. Will be submitting a ticket.


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## Eptesicus (May 26, 2020)

markwind said:


> Short note - no other software or vst has crashed my daw in years.



Same.


----------



## novaburst (May 26, 2020)

markwind said:


> It unfortunately crashes my DAW completely.



Hi is it possible to tell what DAW you are using


----------



## markwind (May 26, 2020)

novaburst said:


> Hi is it possible to tell what DAW you are using


Of course! I use Reaper. I should maybe correct myself, technically its not crashing but freezing my DAW till the point where the process needs to be terminated. Reaper doesn't freeze nor crash on my regardless which vendor's plugins I use - except for Sine now, that is.


----------



## holywilly (May 26, 2020)

Cubase Pro 10 and 10.5 (all latest version) crashes on start up when loading session with SINE player.
SINE loads fine in empty Cubase session.


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## markwind (May 27, 2020)

I submitted a ticket at OT but unfortunately can't seem to find any confirmation. And since it's not account bound, I can't have a look at submitted tickets.


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## Asbjørn (May 31, 2020)

markwind said:


> Of course! I use Reaper. I should maybe correct myself, technically its not crashing but freezing my DAW till the point where the process needs to be terminated. Reaper doesn't freeze nor crash on my regardless which vendor's plugins I use - except for Sine now, that is.



I have the exact same issues with Sine on Reaper. I just bought Tableau Solo Strings, which only runs on Sine, and it crashes for me every five minutes or so.

On a side note. Tableau Solo Strings sounds great, but until this is fixed I can't really trust Sine not to disrupt my workflow, and it kinda makes me regret the purchase :/


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## Eptesicus (May 31, 2020)

Asbjørn said:


> I have the exact same issues with Sine on Reaper. I just bought Tableau Solo Strings, which only runs on Sine, and it crashes for me every five minutes or so.
> 
> On a side note. Tableau Solo Strings sounds great, but until this is fixed I can't really trust Sine not to disrupt my workflow, and it kinda makes me regret the purchase :/



Its such a shame. It clearly has pretty big stability issues for a number of people (myself included).

Stability should be the very first thing to get right when designing a new plug in.


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## Buddy (Jun 1, 2020)

I'm getting Cubase Pro 10 freezing while loading a sample in SINE during project playback (something I do all the time with Kontakt, no problem).

That being said, I love SINE in general. Clean, easy to find articulations, and the samples load incredibly fast. *Much *faster than Kontakt for me.


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## Buddy (Jun 7, 2020)

SINE continues to cause Cubase to freeze. Requires a control-alt-delete close to fix. Upgraded to Cubase 10.5.2, same issue. System _never _did this before SINE.

This is a *serious *issue. I dropped a pretty penny on the SINE version of Ark I, which sounds glorious, but it's not at all useable like this. Anyone get a response from OT?


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## ProfoundSilence (Jun 7, 2020)

Buddy said:


> SINE continues to cause Cubase to freeze. Requires a control-alt-delete close to fix. Upgraded to Cubase 10.5.2, same issue. System _never _did this before SINE.
> 
> This is a *serious *issue. I dropped a pretty penny on the SINE version of Ark I, which sounds glorious, but it's not at all useable like this. Anyone get a response from OT?


did you try changing the memory lock option?


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## Buddy (Jun 7, 2020)

There does not seem to be a memory lock option in my version of SINE (1.0.3). I click Options->Advanced Settings and all I see is Prefetch, Latency Buffers, Sample Cache Pages, Reader Cache Pages, Reader Cache Page Size E20p and a checkbox to Disable Expression CC.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jun 7, 2020)

Buddy said:


> There does not seem to be a memory lock option in my version of SINE (1.0.3). I click Options->Advanced Settings and all I see is Prefetch, Latency Buffers, Sample Cache Pages, Reader Cache Pages, Reader Cache Page Size E20p and a checkbox to Disable Expression CC.


@OrchestralTools @OT_Tobias 

is this option anywhere else now?

I never even noticed it was missing


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## Eptesicus (Jun 8, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> @OrchestralTools @OT_Tobias
> 
> is this option anywhere else now?
> 
> I never even noticed it was missing



They told me that from 1.0.2 it didnt do anything. Now from 1.0.3 it seems to have gone forever.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jun 8, 2020)

Eptesicus said:


> They told me that from 1.0.2 it didnt do anything. Now from 1.0.3 it seems to have gone forever.


forever is a long time haha


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## axb312 (Jun 8, 2020)

Crashing almost every time I open up the Sine player interface with JXL 3 Trombones in Reaper here...


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## Loïc D (Jun 8, 2020)

I feel really sorry for you guys.

Eptesicus : did you try another DAW? Is it unstable in standalone too ?

Sine is a great tool, I really wish it works for you.

(Ok my support doesn’t help you much)


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## Eptesicus (Jun 8, 2020)

LowweeK said:


> I feel really sorry for you guys.
> 
> Eptesicus : did you try another DAW? Is it unstable in standalone too ?
> 
> ...



I unfortunately dont have another DAW to try. I have no intention of moving away from Cubase after all these years .

The main issue i am having is the closing issue which IS 100% SINE. I was working on a project for weeks and after introducing SINE, Cubase crashed when closing. However, if i cleared all the instruments/articulations in SINE after saving but before closing, Cubase closed perfectly everytime.


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## Supremo (Jun 8, 2020)

axb312 said:


> Crashing almost every time I open up the Sine player interface with JXL 3 Trombones in Reaper here...


Do you use VE Pro? I had this issue on Reaper, when there was a Sine instance inside the Reaper project simultaneously with Sine instances sitting at VE Pro. This was crashing Reaper all the time. It looks like the Sine player doesn’t function properly when opened in two various programs at the same time. I solved it simply by removing all Sine instances from inside Reaper and having them sit in VE Pro solely.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jun 8, 2020)

You can try reaper in like 2 minutes, it's a tiny download.


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## novaburst (Jun 8, 2020)

Eptesicus said:


> I unfortunately dont have another DAW to try. I have no intention of moving away from Cubase after all these years .



@Eptesicus i just wanted to know what your favourite DAW is


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## Eptesicus (Jun 9, 2020)

novaburst said:


> @Eptesicus i just wanted to know what your favourite DAW is



Ay?


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## geoffplaysguitar (Jul 22, 2020)

Hi all - this is happening to me too, and it's only been two days since I bought it. I'm using Ableton Live 9. My project was crashing on load, so I deleted the SINE dll and it stopped crashing and opened as normal. It was crashing a lot during use before this instance as well. Has anyone else been able to downgrade to the Kontakt version of Ark 1? 

Another issue - I have my PC's resolution zoomed 125% and switching to the "store" tab causes temp lockup and then only ableton zooms out to like 75% and stays that way. Very weird.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jul 22, 2020)

geoffplaysguitar said:


> Hi all - this is happening to me too, and it's only been two days since I bought it. I'm using Ableton Live 9. My project was crashing on load, so I deleted the SINE dll and it stopped crashing and opened as normal. It was crashing a lot during use before this instance as well. Has anyone else been able to downgrade to the Kontakt version of Ark 1?
> 
> Another issue - I have my PC's resolution zoomed 125% and switching to the "store" tab causes temp lockup and then only ableton zooms out to like 75% and stays that way. Very weird.




wonder if your stability issues are some sort of weird interaction with zoom... did you submit your system info to OT support so they know about it?


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## geoffplaysguitar (Jul 22, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> wonder if your stability issues are some sort of weird interaction with zoom... did you submit your system info to OT support so they know about it?



I did, but I didn't mention the zoom. I'll do that now.


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## Al Maurice (Jul 23, 2020)

I decided to give SINE a go, with one of their free libraries to see if it worked for me.

Unfortunately due to instability issues which were introduced on my PC, I quickly uninstalled it again, then all was well. Which is a shame as OT has some great sample libraries. And with their migration plan, it makes no sense to go for the Kontakt versions now. 

So hopefully within in time they may have fixed their teething issues and I can try again.


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## novaburst (Jul 26, 2020)

Just to say when updating the sample it went to a different location and gave me all sorts of issues including crashes, Sine did give the option to relocate it worked but still was a little unstable.

I deleted all the samples using Sine, and re downloaded them to the original location and things have stabilised working fine again.

i guess if you have started a session changing sample locations wit is not a great idea. it can work but i guess your asking for trouble


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## novaburst (Aug 11, 2020)

Another Sine player update for all who don't check emails


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## mr336 (Aug 13, 2020)

Updated Sine. Still crashing Logic. The most recent version. Macbook Pro 16 newest. Catalina latest, 32 ram blah blah blah. Maybe its time to expand or find new Beta testers cause the current setup sux. This why I dumped Pro Stools. Crash after crash after crash after crash after crash after crash after crash after crash after crash after crash after crash after crash after crash after crash after crash .


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## Philament (Aug 21, 2020)

I downloaded the free layers library last night and I’ve also been met with a number of problems. Installation was not smooth; I still don’t even think I can get the standalone to open, even though I probably don’t need to use it. Switching from CC to Velocity in “poly” mode while playback is occurring crashes Logic. It also has crashed Logic on closing. There are a number of samples that have a fair amount of background noise in the individual sampled notes. Don’t know if this is specific to layers or they took the samples from other libraries. I’m running newest version of Logic in Mac OS 10.14.6. I might send this to support as well, but thought I’d throw my hat in the ring for problems with Sine. I was excited, but this doesn’t bode well for me ever buying anything from OT. I expected a lot better. The spitfire player for example has caused me zero issues so far, and looks better IMO too.


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## Cormast (Sep 21, 2020)

Can't make Sine player work properly. I bought Dagu library today, and the Sine Player crashes in Cubase 10.5 or in standalone, just after I enter password and account name. Running under Win10.

So I can't download the library I just bought. Other plugins are totally fine with my computer (Kontakt/BBCSO spitfire/Play/Synchron stage)


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## will_m (Dec 4, 2020)

Having the same issues in Cubase 10.5 (Win 10), normally my system is incredibly stable but as soon as I open up Sine and go to load something etc it locks up Cubase. I just lost about an hour of MIDI editing thanks to this. I'll be staying firmly on Kontakt with my existing OT libraries.


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## Akarin (Dec 4, 2020)

Latest Cubase, latest Sine. If Cubase doesn't crash when I add a Sine track, it will if I duplicate it. Or sometimes, just from playing a note. 

I gave up on new OT libs because of that.


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## Eptesicus (Dec 4, 2020)

will_m said:


> Having the same issues in Cubase 10.5 (Win 10), normally my system is incredibly stable but as soon as I open up Sine and go to load something etc it locks up Cubase. I just lost about an hour of MIDI editing thanks to this. I'll be staying firmly on Kontakt with my existing OT libraries.





Akarin said:


> Latest Cubase, latest Sine. If Cubase doesn't crash when I add a Sine track, it will if I duplicate it. Or sometimes, just from playing a note.
> 
> I gave up on new OT libs because of that.



:(

It still isnt wonderfully stable for me either

Genuinely one of the most unstable/bug ridden players i have used. It makes me hesitant to reach for jxl brass because it might lead to a crash/freeze or some sort of flakiness.

Unfortunately I've just lost patience in reporting things because how much time can one reasonably be expected to spend troubleshooting this sort of stuff? Its pretty clear that it is unstable for a lot of people so I'm stunned that they have not got to the bottom of it yet.

I'm sure they are trying their best, but the stability lets down what would be a fantastic player otherwise.


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## Akarin (Dec 4, 2020)

Eptesicus said:


> :(
> 
> It still isnt wonderfully stable for me either
> 
> ...



Yep... Everyone can put their Play jokes in the drawer. We have a new "worst in class" contender.


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## Beans (Dec 4, 2020)

Some of my favorite releases I've picked up this year come from OT and Cinesamples.

RAM hunger in CAPSULE; crashes in SINE; hanging notes in CineBrass.

It's still worth it.


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## José Herring (Dec 4, 2020)

Sine for me works great in VEPro. it doesn't work great standalone and I don't have the courage to put it in my DAW or even on the same machine as my DAW. I think that is the problem with having so many dedicated engines from different developers who don't have any interest in making sure their stuff plays nice with other developers. 

After my Play experiences early on, I kind of realized that each sample player needs its own virtual bubble around it so that it doesn't accidentally bump into another one. For me I just put each player in its own instance of VEPro. So Sine has its own instance to protect it from Play which has its own instance for example. I don't mix. And, I'm afraid to use anything but Kontakt in my DAW.


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## will_m (Dec 7, 2020)

Eptesicus said:


> :(
> 
> It still isnt wonderfully stable for me either
> 
> ...



Agreed, at least the libraries I have from them mostly run in Kontakt as well.

I hope they get it fixed, the issues I had with EW Play insured I never bought anything from them again and I don't want OT to go the same way.


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## Cormast (Jan 6, 2021)

Here, latest cubase version blacklist my latest Sineplayer version. I don't understand why.

I can't play with what I just bought


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## YaniDee (Jan 6, 2021)

For me, the Sine player works fine in Cubase, but if I open it in FL studio, my CPU meter goes to 99%, and makes the program totally unstable.


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## AlainTH (Jan 6, 2021)

OT problem? somebody will soon go 'out of silence' explain it is not real problems (and other things about the genial team and the non overpriced products etc...).
i thought some were not lucky, so i just upgrade to cubase11 and to verify i just tried to load JXL Brass in cubase 11 and... crash, indeed... grrrrrrr


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## Kirk1701 (Jan 6, 2021)

geoffplaysguitar said:


> I did, but I didn't mention the zoom. I'll do that now.


I'm having some zoom issues in Reaper as well. The window doesn't resize.


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## Alex Niedt (Jan 6, 2021)

Is everyone reporting their issues to OT rather than just writing them here? They can't be fixed if they aren't reported.


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## Kirk1701 (Jan 6, 2021)

Alex Niedt said:


> Is everyone reporting their issues to OT rather than just writing them here? They can't be fixed if they aren't reported.


Just did. Feels kinda petty submitting a ticket for UI scaling, but here we are.


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## Peter Satera (Jan 6, 2021)

YaniDee said:


> For me, the Sine player works fine in Cubase, but if I open it in FL studio, my CPU meter goes to 99%, and makes the program totally unstable.


Have you reported this? I'm absolutely fine in FL.


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## YaniDee (Jan 6, 2021)

Peter Satera said:


> Have you reported this? I'm absolutely fine in FL


It was a pretty heavy project..I'll try it again with a new project and see what happens.


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## Peter Satera (Jan 7, 2021)

YaniDee said:


> It was a pretty heavy project..I'll try it again with a new project and see what happens.


I'm nearly maxing out my 64Gb in some uses (obviously not all Sine), are you using Fixed Sized Buffers? This is what OT suggest for FL Studio users.


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## YaniDee (Jan 7, 2021)

Peter Satera said:


> I'm nearly maxing out my 64Gb in some uses (obviously not all Sine), are you using Fixed Sized Buffers? This is what OT suggest for FL Studio users.


I just tried it, with a single instrument playing a few notes..and it seems to behave properly. When I first loaded it, the CPU meter was jumping from 0 up to 92 percent without playing a single note! I'll try it in a bigger project. Thanks for the info.


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## Kirk1701 (Jan 9, 2021)

I apologize if this is hijacking, but I got an answer from OT:

"I'm afraid SINE requires a minimum XXXX x 1050 resolution to work properly in plugin mode.
We are aware of this and is already on our bugtracker. Sorry for the inconvenience!"

I'm only working at XXXX x 768, so there you have it.


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## AlainTH (Jan 9, 2021)

i use two 4k screens, so...


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## GNP (Jan 10, 2021)

Damn I was thinking of getting Amber, but I'm also afraid of the Sine player.


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## Peter Satera (Jan 10, 2021)

GNP said:


> Damn I was thinking of getting Amber, but I'm also afraid of the Sine player.


Try Layers. You have a beefy machine. It should really be fine.


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## GNP (Jan 10, 2021)

Peter Satera said:


> Try Layers. You have a beefy machine. It should really be fine.


Just bought Amber and got the Sine. So far working pretty smoothly in Cubase. Let's just hope this keeps up.....


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## dagmarpiano (May 6, 2021)

Getting constant crashes with Sine here with Big Sur and Cubase 11. By constant I mean... 2 or 3 per day. I can manage but it's a bit annoying


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## jononotbono (May 6, 2021)

SINE is crashing Cubase 11 for me. 3 times in each day is most amount of crashes I've had. Each time has taken over an hour of trying to open a project and being to force quite until it finally works. Having to render everything to audio before I have finished writing. I'm on Catalina.

I'm positive it's SINE crashing Cubase firstly because the project I'm working on is literally only using SINE (no other samplers, players, synths etc). 

And secondly, because of this...
😂


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## NeonMediaKJT (May 6, 2021)

I REALLY don't like the store being in the player. Always seems to either crash or load very slowly and I always accidentally click it, lol.


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## chrisav (May 6, 2021)

Yeah Sine crashed Logic 10.5.1 for me two days ago, only to then crash my entire computer (I think the audio engine got messed up or something; the fan on my computer wouldn't die down, the CPU temp reader read a consistent ~97C, and then everything on my computer froze with loud clicks coming at regular intervals), so I've just about had enough of it for a good while.


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## jbuhler (May 6, 2021)

I only have issues with starting up projects with Sine instances in them. Logic will hang on load. I get around that by disabling all Sine instances before quitting and then reenabling them after restarting a project, because for whatever reason, Sine doesn't cause an issue when it is reloaded after the project is open. So there's definitely some kind of weird issue going on, but I haven't been able to replicate it in all projects. So far it only occurs with a few older ones.


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## novaburst (May 7, 2021)

jononotbono said:


> SINE is crashing Cubase 11 for me. 3 times in each day is most amount of crashes I've had. Each time has taken over an hour of trying to open a project and being to force quite until it finally works. Having to render everything to audio before I have finished writing. I'm on Catalina.
> 
> I'm positive it's SINE crashing Cubase firstly because the project I'm working on is literally only using SINE (no other samplers, players, synths etc).
> 
> ...


It would be good to boot your project up in a previous Cubase version and see how it handles Sine, you should still have older versions unless you deleted them, you can at least mess about with an older version of Cubase and Sine to narrow the issue down, yes the culprit may be Sine but is it Sine not agreeing with Cubase 11


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## holywilly (May 7, 2021)

Rock solid on Mojave and Cubase Pro 11(latest version), and VEP 7 too, no crashes.


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## jononotbono (May 7, 2021)

novaburst said:


> It would be good to boot your project up in a previous Cubase version and see how it handles Sine, you should still have older versions unless you deleted them, you can at least mess about with an older version of Cubase and Sine to narrow the issue down, yes the culprit may be Sine but is it Sine not agreeing with Cubase 11


It crashed 10.5 as well. With the same project.


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