# Desktop PC build instead of a M1 Max MacBook Pro?



## inthevoid (Nov 27, 2021)

Hi all,

I'm looking for a new DAW to replace my current Mac Pro (2013) / 8-core Intel Xeon 3.0GHz / 64GB RAM which has been beginning to struggle of late with what I'm throwing at it. The fans spin up constantly now as soon as I get going which means noise is becoming an issue, and I'm having to work at 2048 buffer size constantly in larger templates. I'm also starting to get a lot of crashing and glitching generally across all applications.

I work primarily in Cubase, though I also use Vienna Ensemble Pro, Pro Tools and Video Sync as part of my workflow. I'm also using 3 monitors - 1 4K and 2 QHD, and a UAD Apollo x4 interface. My two options are to either go with one of the new M1 Max MacBook Pros, or make the jump to Windows and go with a PC desktop build.

The new M1 Max MacBook Pros look like great machines but I'm concerned about compatibility with Apple Silicon in the shorter term, especially with Cubase not going M1 native until version 12, and am put off by not being able to upgrade past 64GB RAM (or any part of the machine for that matter). I'm also not particularly keen on the form factor of a laptop as my main DAW as I very rarely need to work on the move, and I'd rather not spend a load of money on a top-of the range screen that I keep shut 95% of the time.

The 2019 Intel Mac Pros are way above my price range (roughly 10,000GBP for the specced machine that I'm after) and I don't hold a great deal of hope that the rumoured 2022 Apple Silicon Mac Pros will be much cheaper for similar specs.

The things that I love about the Mac space are the slick user and support experience that I've come to expect from Apple, and Core Audio etc is fantastically pain-free to use. However, I have now been looking at PC options due to the flexibility and cost efficiency (and Anne-Kathrin Dern's very insightful YouTube video!).

While I'm not averse to the idea of building my own computer, I do like the idea of buying pre-built from a specialist as it just gives me the Apple-style peace of mind that if something were to go down mid-project I'd have good support to call upon. So I'm happy to pay a bit of a premium for that service.

With that in mind, I came across the UK builder Scan 3XS on a recommendation from this forum. I was pretty blown away by the fact that for 1000GBP less than a top spec MacBook Pro M1 Max (5899GBP), I could customise the TX570 Noisia Edition workstation into a build that looks like it would blow it out of the water. Here's a link:

 3XS Audio Workstation Pro - TX570 Noisia Edition (Modified)

This would give me a Ryzen 5950X CPU, 128GB RAM, plus 8TB NVMe storage separate from my 1TB OS drive that I was imagining I could put my roughly 4TB of samples on along with 4TB for active projects. This would be all complemented by a 12TB backup/archive hard drive. 

The GPU is probably overkill - I need it to be able to handle running my 3 monitors, and possibly also high quality video, though that is dependent on whether I incorporate a Mac Mini into my setup for running Video Sync and Pro Tools. I've been dabbling in Unity 3D as a hobby as well, and it would be nice to have a video card that can eat 3D graphics for breakfast.

Firstly, it would be great to hear if any of you have any thoughts on my decision. I've been on Mac for the last 10 years so am very used to working in OSX (and love it), though I don't hate Windows by any means. If any of you have made the switch or are using a similar setup I'd love to hear your opinions!

I also had a couple more specific questions:

- I've heard about compatibility issues relating to UAD interfaces with Ryzen CPUs. I saw on this thread (Link) that there had been some progress with PCIe cards, but I'm not sure about their Apollo series? The specific motherboard in this setup is the ASUS AMD ProArt X570-Creator WiFI AMD X570 ATX.

- Is there any drawback to keeping everything on internal storage? My desk is currently a complete mess of external hard drives and I'd love to keep as much as I can inside the computer if possible.

- The 2 x 4TB NVMe M.2 sticks on Scan 3XS (Sabrent Rocket Q4) are 4900MB/s Read, 3500MB/s Write which is quite a bit slower than their 2TB Samsung 980 PRO sticks (7000/5000). Would the Sabrent 4TB sticks still be fast enough for streaming libraries and project files, or is there a better alternative?

- Has anyone had experience with using a Mac Mini as a video & Pro Tools slave with a Windows main machine?

I appreciate this is a bit of a wall of text -- any thoughts on any of the points above would be very gratefully received!

Thanks.


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## Xiheua (Nov 27, 2021)

From what I've read around, I'd go with the macbook only if you're going to need the portability. Otherwise I'd wait around the corner for the desktop M1 chip versions, or go with the PC option


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## Michael Antrum (Nov 27, 2021)

Got to say that I think when the new Mac desktops arrive, you’ll be wishing you had held on.

The mobile M1 series cpu‘s have proven to be quite astonishing, even when running under Rosetta. I’d hang fire if I were you…..


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## Pictus (Nov 27, 2021)

inthevoid said:


> Hi all,
> 
> With that in mind, I came across the UK builder Scan 3XS on a recommendation from this forum. I was pretty blown away by the fact that for 1000GBP less than a top spec MacBook Pro M1 Max (5899GBP), I could customise the TX570 Noisia Edition workstation into a build that looks like it would blow it out of the water. Here's a link:
> 
> 3XS Audio Workstation Pro - TX570 Noisia Edition (Modified)


I can not access scan.co.uk they block my IP.


inthevoid said:


> - I've heard about compatibility issues relating to UAD interfaces with Ryzen CPUs. I saw on this thread (Link) that there had been some progress with PCIe cards, but I'm not sure about their Apollo series? The specific motherboard in this setup is the ASUS AMD ProArt X570-Creator WiFI AMD X570 ATX.


May find the answer at








The AMD Ryzen & UAD 2 Thread - Page 17 - Gearspace.com


Quote: Originally Posted by easyrider ➡️ Excellent. What UAD card was it? Solo , Duo or Quad? Did you flash to Bios 2 like I said? Please email gigabyte support and let them know they want feedback to make it official on their website. Cheers 1. solo 2.Flashed bios update yes...



gearspace.com







inthevoid said:


> - Is there any drawback to keeping everything on internal storage? My desk is currently a complete mess of external hard drives and I'd love to keep as much as I can inside the computer if possible.


No problem.


inthevoid said:


> - The 2 x 4TB NVMe M.2 sticks on Scan 3XS (Sabrent Rocket Q4) are 4900MB/s Read, 3500MB/s Write which is quite a bit slower than their 2TB Samsung 980 PRO sticks (7000/5000). Would the Sabrent 4TB sticks still be fast enough for streaming libraries and project files, or is there a better alternative?


Makes no difference for audio workloads.


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## inthevoid (Nov 28, 2021)

Thank you all for your thoughts. Thanks @Pictus for sending over that Gearspace thread, I'll have a dig in there for Ryzen compatibility. Seems like it's a good idea to hang tight for some more news on the Apple Silicon desktops hopefully in the next couple of months... just hope they're a bit more affordable than the current Intel MPs!


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## ed buller (Nov 28, 2021)

You get more bang for your buck with a PC

best

ed


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## kabinboy (Dec 29, 2021)

inthevoid said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm looking for a new DAW to replace my current Mac Pro (2013) / 8-core Intel Xeon 3.0GHz / 64GB RAM which has been beginning to struggle of late with what I'm throwing at it. The fans spin up constantly now as soon as I get going which means noise is becoming an issue, and I'm having to work at 2048 buffer size constantly in larger templates. I'm also starting to get a lot of crashing and glitching generally across all applications.
> 
> ...


Hi,

I can't speak to all of your questions here, but can offer my own opinion on the decision to switch to Windows.

In 2019 I was still running my 2009 Mac Pro, after having been exclusively a mac user since 1985. My only exception was a VE Pro slave PC custom built by Heavy Digital Audio.

I decided to build a Windows machine to replace my 2009 mac pro, and it has gone great. I'm running Cubase and Pro Tools with only a few issues with Pro Tools, and those are manageable. Everything is very stable.

I understand what you are saying about the Mac ecosystem, and I miss it too. However, I still use my 2009 Mac Pro for all the fun stuff, like web browsing, email, and the Mac suite of apps.

Good luck with your decision!


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## CSS_SCC (Dec 29, 2021)

I have a a config very similar to the one you have linked (delivered by Scan in June but with a nVidia 3070) and, at least for the moment, the support from Scan has been very good.

Everything works as intended with the exception of a Blackmagic ATEM Mini Extreme Iso that decided to get extremelly noisy after only a few hours of use.

The changes that I have made: Windows 10 Pro for Workstations (the Home edition doesn't allow for many in-depth tweaks), ASRock AMD Ryzen X570 Taichi (this was the only motherboard in stock at the time with 3xNVMe SSD slots), a Samsung 980 2TB and a WD 16TB as internal drive. I had from my old system 3 other NVMe drives, 4 SATA SSDs and a bunch of HDDs for a total of over 50TB.

I have now on NVMe my system/app drive, temp files drive, and two NVMe drives my day to day projects. All VI and samples are on SATA SSDs (8TB in total) - at least in my case it really did not make any real difference as I have had a look at the disk activity and outside the initial load, the read speed is in the 10-100MB/s which can be handled even by a HDD.

I haven't used UAD interfaces at all so I can't say anything about that.

If you have been using (mostly) Macs for a long time, be prepared to have a bit of learning curve. I need some time to accomodate myself everytime I need to use a Mac.

Also, if you are trying to do anything Dolby Atmos/Auro be aware that some of the tools for rendering/delivery are only available on Mac or on custom Windows workstations built by Dell (around £10000 just for the hardware and available only from Dolby authorised system builders) so keep a Mac close.


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## KEM (Dec 29, 2021)

Do what I’m doing and wait for the next Mac Mini, it’s rumored to be refreshed sometime in early-mid 2022 and the insiders are saying similar specs to the current MacBook Pro’s that just came out, but it’ll be around $800 cheaper since there’s no screen involved, I think it’s pretty much perfect if it happens


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## vitocorleone123 (Dec 31, 2021)

KEM said:


> Do what I’m doing and wait for the next Mac Mini, it’s rumored to be refreshed sometime in early-mid 2022 and the insiders are saying similar specs to the current MacBook Pro’s that just came out, but it’ll be around $800 cheaper since there’s no screen involved, I think it’s pretty much perfect if it happens


The new Apple chips are crazy efficient for the CPU power they can deliver, making the laptops currently untouchable for creatives vs Intel/AMD. But, on the desktop, where efficiency isn't the primary driver, there's better performing systems. Likely even more so by early to mid 2022.


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## KEM (Dec 31, 2021)

vitocorleone123 said:


> The new Apple chips are crazy efficient for the CPU power they can deliver, making the laptops currently untouchable for creatives vs Intel/AMD. But, on the desktop, where efficiency isn't the primary driver, there's better performing systems. Likely even more so by early to mid 2022.



Definitely true, I just don’t want to use a PC as my primary system


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## vitocorleone123 (Dec 31, 2021)

KEM said:


> Definitely true, I just don’t want to use a PC as my primary system


Ah! I understand. I feel the same way about Mac (I use a Mac for work as a UX Designer/Researcher and PC for fun and music). But we're drifting off-topic, so back to the hardware!


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## KEM (Dec 31, 2021)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Ah! I understand. I feel the same way about Mac (I use a Mac for work as a UX Designer/Researcher and PC for fun and music). But we're drifting off-topic, so back to the hardware!



I’d say it’s on topic, real world experiences will definitely help OP make his decision!!


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## JohnG (Dec 31, 2021)

inthevoid said:


> The fans spin up constantly now as soon as I get going


have you used air to blow out the fans (do this outside -- learned the hard way!).

I bought one of these: 

It has quite a lot of force and cleans the fans and fins for the heatsinks.


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## JohnG (Dec 31, 2021)

inthevoid said:


> The 2019 Intel Mac Pros are way above my price range (roughly 10,000GBP for the specced machine that I'm after) and I don't hold a great deal of hope that the rumoured 2022 Apple Silicon Mac Pros will be much cheaper for similar specs


I think you may be right about the money, but I would still wait as long as humanly possible. In the mean time for GBP1500-2000 you could probably build a PC to serve up samples and purchase a VE Pro license (Euros195) as well. Maybe less.

That might solve your problem long enough to bridge over to the new M1 fantasy machine which (speculating) might not need the same specs as the 2019 model. I have the latter and if I could have waited, I would.


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## CSS_SCC (Dec 31, 2021)

With regards to buiding/buying a system now:

First, there is the transition from Intel to M1 on the Apple side -> lots of software that is not yet ported over and the platform itself has not yet been geared towards high-end professional use. Apple might have something up their sleeve but, traditionally, they have been quite slow to update their pure performance offerings. Every time they launch something really aimed at professionals they make a splash but that's long refresh cycles in comparison to PCs.

Second, on the PC side, DDR5 has just been launched (Intel had CPUs and chipsets that support DDR5, AMD not yet) and PCIe 5 is also just around the corner on the prosumer platforms. The only issue is that they will really be as good as the software support is. And that is, again, not yet there. Speaking also hardware, supposedly, micro LED displays are just about to become available.

So, my opinion, if you need a computer right now, just buy what covers your needs for the next two years and then you will be in a much better position to decide and, more importantly, you don't need to pay the early adopter tax, plus the current very high prices on high-end hardware because of the chip shortages affecting everyone.


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## vitocorleone123 (Dec 31, 2021)

JohnG said:


> have you used air to blow out the fans (do this outside -- learned the hard way!).
> 
> I bought one of these:
> 
> It has quite a lot of force and cleans the fans and fins for the heatsinks.



Nice!

The only thing to watch for is making your fans spin the wrong direction (even when off, but no one should ever clean them when on, of course!).


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## Pictus (Dec 31, 2021)

inthevoid said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm looking for a new DAW to replace my current
> 
> ...



He needs to clean of the dust and re-apply the thermal paste, 2013 is too much time
and the original paste is already dry.

My recommendation for thermal paste is SYY-157








Review SYY 157 - Recensione pasta termica SYY 157


Unboxing, recensione e review della pasta termica SYY 157 ad alte prestazioni da ben 15,7 W / M-K . Test, benchmark e temperature CPU.




albestech.com




It is a lot less viscous than the TFX(hard to apply)








Migliore pasta termica 2022 - Roundup e classifica migliori paste termiche


Quale è la migliore pasta termica 2022 per pc, cpu e overclock? Roundup, classifica, test, benchmark e temperature migliori paste termiche.




albestech.com










How to deal with viscous paste, best use a hot air(hair dryer) over the paste tube/heatsink
or leave the paste tube in hot water for some minutes.


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## composerguy78 (Jan 6, 2022)

KEM said:


> Do what I’m doing and wait for the next Mac Mini, it’s rumored to be refreshed sometime in early-mid 2022 and the insiders are saying similar specs to the current MacBook Pro’s that just came out, but it’ll be around $800 cheaper since there’s no screen involved, I think it’s pretty much perfect if it happens


I hope you are correct about the price. But why would Apple price the new Mac Pro to be less than the current mac pro? Especially when it has a superior CPU in it. 

Unless, they make a different model of Mac Pro I suppose? Which I hope they do - something like a Mid level Mac Pro closer in size to the trash can model but more powerful than the mac minis.

Thoughts?


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## RSK (Jan 6, 2022)

The fact that we're comparing PC desktops with top of the line processors versus Apple's latest laptop says a lot about the laptop, does it not?


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## easyrider (Jan 6, 2022)

RSK said:


> The fact that we're comparing PC desktops with top of the line processors versus Apple's latest laptop says a lot about the laptop, does it not?


Not really….


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## KEM (Jan 6, 2022)

composerguy78 said:


> I hope you are correct about the price. But why would Apple price the new Mac Pro to be less than the current mac pro? Especially when it has a superior CPU in it.
> 
> Unless, they make a different model of Mac Pro I suppose? Which I hope they do - something like a Mid level Mac Pro closer in size to the trash can model but more powerful than the mac minis.
> 
> Thoughts?



There’s a number of reasons and I can’t remember all of them off the top of my head but I do remember them saying that the Apple Silicon chips are MUCH cheaper to make than Intels Xeon chips that the current Mac Pro uses and since they don’t have to outsource them either it dramatically cuts down the cost, and since the Apple Silicon chips have integrated graphics that are extremely powerful they won’t need to outsource for a very expensive graphics card either like the Radeon’s in the current Mac Pro, and lastly I remember them saying that the current Mac Pro’s also require a huge power supply for the Radeon’s as well as the Xeons which have horrible power efficiency, the Apple Silicon is obviously most revered for its power efficiency so it wouldn’t need that massive power supply either


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## gzapper (Jan 6, 2022)

KEM said:


> There’s a number of reasons and I can’t remember all of them off the top of my head but I do remember them saying that the Apple Silicon chips are MUCH cheaper to make than Intels Xeon chips that the current Mac Pro uses and since they don’t have to outsource them either it dramatically cuts down the cost, and since the Apple Silicon chips have integrated graphics that are extremely powerful they won’t need to outsource for a very expensive graphics card either like the Radeon’s in the current Mac Pro, and lastly I remember them saying that the current Mac Pro’s also require a huge power supply for the Radeon’s as well as the Xeons which have horrible power efficiency, the Apple Silicon is obviously most revered for its power efficiency so it wouldn’t need that massive power supply either


In house chips are cheaper, cutting vendor gpu chips even cheaper again.
Not worrying about thermals the same way makes it easier/cheaper.
Smaller power supply, battery for a chip that needs less juice is cheaper.


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## KEM (Jan 6, 2022)

gzapper said:


> In house chips are cheaper, cutting vendor gpu chips even cheaper again.
> Not worrying about thermals the same way makes it easier/cheaper.
> Smaller power supply, battery for a chip that needs less juice is cheaper.



Yep, so I think it’s safe to expect the next iteration of the Mac Pro to be much cheaper than the current version, which is only a good thing


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## wayne_rowley (Jan 6, 2022)

KEM said:


> Yep, so I think it’s safe to expect the next iteration of the Mac Pro to be much cheaper than the current version, which is only a good thing


That hasn’t been the case with the new MacBook Pro’s though has it? I spec’d one up for my use case and it came to over £4K!


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## KEM (Jan 6, 2022)

wayne_rowley said:


> That hasn’t been the case with the new MacBook Pro’s though has it? I spec’d one up for my use case and it came to over £4K!



If I remember correctly you could max out the Intel versions at like $6k, Apple currently still sells a Intel variant of the Mac Mini and it’s much more expensive than their Silicon versions


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## wayne_rowley (Jan 6, 2022)

KEM said:


> If I remember correctly you could max out the Intel versions at like $6k, Apple currently still sells a Intel variant of the Mac Mini and it’s much more expensive than their Silicon versions


Well the version I spec’d wasn’t maxed out. It was 14 inch and I could have gone higher with both GPU and storage. That would have pushed it nearer £6K! As for the Mini, the current M1 only replaced the low-end i3 Intel Mini, and I don’t think it is cheaper. You get less RAM support and less Thunderbolt ports too.

I can’t see any new Apple product being significantly cheaper than current ones - it’s just not what they do. The price rises for iPhones alone show that - and they are all AS!

Wayne


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## easyrider (Jan 7, 2022)

KEM said:


> There’s a number of reasons and I can’t remember all of them off the top of my head but I do remember them saying that the Apple Silicon chips are MUCH cheaper to make than Intels Xeon chips that the current Mac Pro uses and since they don’t have to outsource them either it dramatically cuts down the cost, and since the Apple Silicon chips have integrated graphics that are extremely powerful they won’t need to outsource for a very expensive graphics card either like the Radeon’s in the current Mac Pro, and lastly I remember them saying that the current Mac Pro’s also require a huge power supply for the Radeon’s as well as the Xeons which have horrible power efficiency, the Apple Silicon is obviously most revered for its power efficiency so it wouldn’t need that massive power supply either


Lol


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## Bereckis (Jan 7, 2022)

New Apple products are not cheaper, but more and more powerful. That would be against your market strategy.

I currently use the strongest normal iMac (Intel) instead of the iMac Pro, because this is economical for me. Also my MacBook Pro is still with Intel.

I wonder why Apple offers no reasonable server technology.

My professional and musical experience with Windows are not good. However, Windows has become much better and more stable.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Jan 7, 2022)

KEM said:


> Do what I’m doing and wait for the next Mac Mini, it’s rumored to be refreshed sometime in early-mid 2022 and the insiders are saying similar specs to the current MacBook Pro’s that just came out


He said he did not want to deal with a limitation of 64GB of RAM
And the Mini is not going to have more than that... highly unlikely anyway

I have a 2018 Mac mini and that takes 64GB as well


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Jan 7, 2022)

KEM said:


> If I remember correctly you could max out the Intel versions at like $6k, Apple currently still sells a Intel variant of the Mac Mini and it’s much more expensive than their Silicon versions


Apple's M1 Mac mini is not top of the line, so comparing it to the current 6-Core i7 makes no sense
Sorry, but I am not sure where your reasoning is coming from?

I could be wrong, but it seems you are simply theorizing and proposing ideas that you don't have any stats or articles to support.

There is no reason the new M1 Max variants would be cheaper than the others:
As already stated, this has not been the case so far, so unlikely to change.
-It is not a matter of being less components, you pay Apple Tax
-They are offering a product no one else has so they capitalize on the premium product there
-Innovation means better equipment and custom design/R&D etc. Which all have to be factored into the equation

Sorry the argument of less means cheaper is an oversimplification here


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## juliandoe (Jan 7, 2022)

Hi there,

I’m in a similar situation with an old mac that needs to be upgraded. I’ve talked with a lot of trusted friends producers and the m1 outperform any pc with similar spec or price range. The downside is the compatibility and Monterey that still is not stable. My decision is, for now, to wait for the new mac minis with m1 pro/max trying to find the balance between the most ram with the less gpu and a good price.



In the meantime, I’m getting a new system drive and starting fresh installing only the plugins and apps that I actually use, plus cleaning of the cooling system and new thermal paste. This will improve the performance of the old mac.



I’ve used multiple monitors for a long time but now I’m working to change to one monitor (32) and use an external computer for the video so the main computer CPU doesn’t have to handle that process.



There are drawbacks keeping everything on internal storage. the problems arise when you keep everything on the system drive. So internal storage yes but different hard drives for a different purpose (library, system, projects, backups)



To avoid the mass and improve your storage think about a nat like sinology or Blackmagic



In terms of speed, Let’s oversimplify: More GB = Less Speed. 

It’s better to have a more small HD than a gib one. M2 are a great system drive but not so much for streaming samples.


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## composerguy78 (Jan 10, 2022)

RSK said:


> The fact that we're comparing PC desktops with top of the line processors versus Apple's latest laptop says a lot about the laptop, does it not?


It certainly does!


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## glyster (Jan 27, 2022)

Go PC unless you really need something on Mac or you don’t care about the extra cost. Top of line desktop CPU will beat the best laptop CPU. This is just power design and physics. There are some similar discussion in other threads. Anyway Windows 10 is rock solid and you can pick the best hardware.


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