# This can't bode well for Logic Pro....



## SvK (Oct 1, 2010)

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1023184

This link can't bode well for Logic Pro....

SvK


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## SvK (Oct 1, 2010)

Read the comments...


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## stevenson-again (Oct 1, 2010)

that's FCP - logic is not even developed in the same country. they are very separate things.


as far as multi-threading goes, for audio, CPU requirements are pretty special. certain processes must be done 'on time' was how it was put to me but i think what was meant is 'perfectly synchronized'. there are lots of things going on that utilize other processes that can be multi-threaded, but the more cores you have the less efficient the whole becomes. well, that's what i have heard - i find it hard to believe that that can't developed around, but i am given to understand such things are very hard.

never-the-less i understand the feeling that if you buy the power it should be used by thing you bought it to run.

to give you an example, assigning cores manually in plogue can give you worse performance than letting everything run from one core. the way i look at the new computers is not 1 big powerful computer, but several computers in 1. sure logic may only be able to use 8 cores in a 12 core machine, but that means you can have plogue on another core, VEpro on another, PLAY using some others, and still have CPU time for converting video in the background.

that's why i don't think slave computers are the way forward. you are buying a virtual slave when you buy a modern computer.


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## RiffWraith (Oct 1, 2010)

> when it was revealed that Apple had laid off 40 members of the project team.





> Forbes has released its annual list of the 400 richest Americans, and Apple CEO Steve Jobs checks in in 42nd place with a net worth of approximately $6.1 billion.



Maybe I am a scrooge, but stuff like that really pisses me off.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 2, 2010)

> I don't think it has much to do with the details. It makes zero sense for Apple, strategically, to be in this business.



i am not sure about that. i think the idea is that if they have 'industry standard' software that's also accessible to consumers, then they can tie people to the hardware which is where they make their money. and actually it has worked - it certainly worked for logic.

what annoys me a little about logic is that they rely on the credibility professionals give to attract the amateur or student demographic, without really fully closing the gap on what professionals really need. they go some way towards keeping the pros happy, but they are often not fully thought through or incomplete. track import springs to mind but there are lots of other areas.

on the other hand, it has been cleverly done in the sense that garageband is effectively logic with a different UI so that the path from those who want to fool around with GB for a bit and then step up to logic can do that easily. logic is priced incredibly cheaply with an amazing amount of content - so for someone starting out its a no-brainer. all intended to lock you in to the mac hardware. but the upshot of it is, logic is very healthy in terms of user numbers which theoretically should mean pros get supported. i must say i wish we were supported a bit better.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 2, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Fri Oct 01 said:


> > I don't think it has much to do with the details. It makes zero sense for Apple, strategically, to be in this business.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I totally agree Rohan.


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## JohnG (Oct 2, 2010)

Guys, I wish I could agree, but I don't. Apple's business has totally changed in the last three years. It is unrecognisable from what it once was, and pro music software, in my personal opinion, is less and less obvious as part of their strategy.

Sure, they want to sell some more computers, but if one expects them to maintain what might be only a breakeven business in order to sell computers, that is not too plausible, to me. Their computer business has shrunk in size to about 1/3 of their revenues now, and the dollar amount of hardware they sell to high end musicians -- "music pros," to use that term -- shrinks to the infinitesimal ò"   éC~"   éC"   éC€"   éC"   éC‚"   éCƒ"   éC„"   éC…"   éC†"   éC‡"   éCˆ"   éC‰"   éCŠ"   éC‹"   éCŒ"   éC"   éCŽ"   éC"   éC"   éC‘"   éC’"   éC“"   éC”"   éC•"   éC–"   éC—"   éC˜"   éC™"   éCš"   éC›"   éCœ"   éC"   éCž"   éCŸ"   éC "   éC¡"   éC¢"   éC£"   éC¤"   éC¥"   éC¦"   éC§"   éC¨"   éC©"   éCª"   éC«"   éC¬"   éC­"   éC®"   éC¯"   éC°"   éC±"   éC²"   éC³"   éC´"   éCµ"   éC¶"   éC·"   éC¸"   éC¹"   éCº"   éC»"   éC¼"   éC½"   éC¾"   éC¿"   éCÀ"   éCÁ"   éCÂ"   éCÃ"   éCÄ"   éCÅ"   éCÆ"   éCÇ"   éCÈ"   éCÉ"   éCÊ"   éCË"   éCÌ"   éCÍ"   éCÎ"   éCÏ"   éCÐ"   éCÑ"   éCÒ"   éCÓ"   éCÔ"   éCÕ"   éCÖ"   éC×"   éCØ"   éCÛ"   éCÜ"   éCÝ"   éCÞ"   éCß"   éCà"   éCá"   éCâ"   éCã"   éCä"   éCå"   éCæ"   éCç"   éCè"   éCé"   éCê"   éCë"   éCì"   éCí"   éCî"   éCï              ò"   éCñ"   éCò"   éCó"   éCô"   éCõ"   éCö"   éC÷"   éCø"   éCù"   éCú"   éCû"   éCü"   éCý"   éCþ"   éCÿ"   éD "   éD"   éD"   éD"   éD"   éD"   éD"   éD"   éD"   éD	"   éD
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## booboo (Oct 2, 2010)

I kind of agree with this last statement. 

I've been using Logic since 1998, and it's pretty much all I've ever known. 
What I've noticed lately is that Logic keeps adding features without really perfecting them....'flex time' and 'take folders' is a great example. Also, an interesting catch 22 is Logic still has the illusion of a completely open workflow, left over from the Emagic days, BUT there is often a "right way" to do things now, so Logic can be a little bit of a maze with dead ends that never get fixed. I've gotten "Logic questions" from friends and I have to tell them..."oh yeah, that's actually a trap, you have to do that THIS way."

As I've been thinking about cheating on logic (lol...that's what it feels like after 12 years), I've been checking out the Cubase forums and EVEN the PT forums...and I've had a little realization:

These other DAWs are those companies bread and butter. If the users aren't happy, they HAVE to get their shit together. Logic was even like this sort of when it was Emagic.... 

Apple IS NOT in the software business...yeah, I know, I know, but they're really not....they're in the HARDWARE business, they sell computers...and even within that, they're slowly moving away from the Pro market and focusing on the consumer ipads, phones, apple tv, etc.

Case in point: A friend pointed out that Cubase made a FREE ipad controller app for it's users. You'd think apple could have gotten there first....but no.


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## midphase (Oct 2, 2010)

http://www.macworld.com/article/154470/ ... _fast.html


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## José Herring (Oct 2, 2010)

Change is always scary. But just looking at where Logic is now compared to the incomprehensible software that it use to be, I wouldn't be too worried. Looking at it from the outside, both final cut and logic over the past few years have seen some serious improvement. I seriously doubt that they're sitting around the table thinking about how to "dumb" down their products for the masses. If anything they're thinking how they can make it more easy to use yet more powerful.


best,

Jose


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## JohnG (Oct 2, 2010)

Rohan, you may be right, but I am not sure that I can connect what you are saying with the thesis that Logic is a sensible part of Apple's strategy. In fact, I think you make the case for the opposite when you say, "logic is not profitable at all" and that the pro market is "infinitesimal." You are right, I believe!

If you argue that they want to keep Logic for the same reasons clothing companies keep "flagship" stores -- for branding and cachet -- I can understand that, but it remains a precarious reason to keep investing in the product the way we would all like to see. That said, I acknowledge that the company is so profitable at the moment that they can keep it around and not really feel the loss for the time being. 

If you are arguing that selling Logic generates meaningful sales of Apple hardware, I'd be skeptical too, because it's not as though people replace their desktops every year or two as they were for a while. I doubt that computers bought by those wanting to use Logic amount to a rounding error in hardware sales. 

They are now a consumer company, not a pro company. Pro software, with all its extra development costs and support demands, doesn't fit naturally in that strategy. I don't see anyone in the Apple store here even looking at pro software. It's all gadgets.

All that said, who knows what they regard as decisive in Cupertino? We'll see what Mr. Jobs does, and eventually what his successors decide. When I look at Apple it's as though they're riding a wild tiger with the incredible success they've had and it has a life of its own that maybe nobody but Mr. Jobs himself is able to predict. 

I'm still waiting for crazy MOTU to get 64 bit on Performer happening!


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## Animus (Oct 2, 2010)

Apple Computers Inc. [sic] are becoming more and more a social media company. It's very obvious and their culture has always been prone to that mentality anyway. And Steve Jobs is far worse then Bill Gates ever was.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 2, 2010)

This exact thread comes up every few months, and then Apple comes out with an update that stops it. Last time they came out with a 64-bit version of Logic - a total rewrite.

To me the question is how other companies that *are* in the professional music industry are able to keep making a go of it - not whether Apple doesn't care about Logic, because it's been shown time and time again that they do.


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## david robinson (Oct 2, 2010)

Animus @ Sat Oct 02 said:


> josejherring @ Sat Oct 02 said:
> 
> 
> > david robinson @ Sat Oct 02 said:
> ...



hi,
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## Waywyn (Oct 3, 2010)

Blizzard created World of Warcraft back then, with all its awesome features and breathtaking way of how to play the game. Then they had all the main consumers whining about certain stuff being too hard to play or difficult to reach and suddenly WoW was that cheesy commercial RPG for dummies game.

Somehow Apple acts like the same - can that be?
They see the success in the normal/hobby/home users and try to make more money.
I think in a few years they will jump off the pro side. I mean if a company makes more money with their cell phones than with the real pro machines, things are really obvious on where to head, no?

I know I was pretty overwhelmed back then when I received my Mac. It all looked promising, 64bit was on their way ... but then it took them like 3 years to get it fully to work while the Win guys easily overtook and rushed away ... and by recently checking out Win7 I have to say that the difference towards OS X isn't that far away anymore.

I am still not sure but I somehow feel that soon the only difference between a good music Mac and PC will be the price only ... and this wouldn't justify by staying on the Mac side. I love certain brands and sometimes I am willing to pay more, ... but Apple definitely doesn't belong to these kind of thing. Jeans yes


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## stevenson-again (Oct 3, 2010)

i just don't think its either or. it's perfectly possible for apple to say, 'there is more money in consumer stuff than pro stuff so we'll ignore pro stuff or discontinue it altogether) but it isn't very forward looking or sensible. a lot the stuff that is making their consumer stuff so desirable is stuff that was developed for the pro cutting edge market.

by the same thinking, why would car companies develop supercars and the like? they do it because that is recouping R&D, the advancements made in those cars trickle down to their consumer products and also because it increases the 'coolness' perception of the company. you buy a mercedes to be associated with the same company that produced the SLR.

and just because there is not MUCH money in the pro end of the market does not mean there is NO money it and not worthwhile in terms of making a profit.

big companies try to look at big pictures. over here, we have tescos who have aggressively tried to win shoppers by selling stuff below cost. obviously they lose money on those items but they try to change peoples buying habits to suit them, including keeping them in their horrible stores.

the development budget for logic is a tear drop in the ocean for apple, yet the association with pop culture it brings them i would bet my life is very important to their overall image.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 3, 2010)

booboo @ Sat Oct 02 said:


> I kind of agree with this last statement.
> 
> I've been using Logic since 1998, and it's pretty much all I've ever known.
> What I've noticed lately is that Logic keeps adding features without really perfecting them....'flex time' and 'take folders' is a great example. Also, an interesting catch 22 is Logic still has the illusion of a completely open workflow, left over from the Emagic days, BUT there is often a "right way" to do things now, so Logic can be a little bit of a maze with dead ends that never get fixed. I've gotten "Logic questions" from friends and I have to tell them..."oh yeah, that's actually a trap, you have to do that THIS way."
> ...



As a longtime member of Cubase.net and one of the few members here using Cubase Mac, I gotta tell you it ain't exactly roses and rainbows over there. I do very much enjoy the Cubase workflow and the general ease of operation, but that same sense you have of things never getting quite fixed is one of the big user complaints over there, along with the completely incomprehensible _removal of helpful features_. It's astounding-with every rev, a few things people love and use every day get sent to The Cornfield™. Add to this a barely responsive and slow moving company (still waiting for 64 bit and better pitch change and time stretching algorithms) and you get a lot of frustration.

I agree that it's a different and perhaps somewhat unnerving experience with Apple who have traditionally used software as a break even device to sell computers, and might simply discontinue or cut down support, but my point is that for pro users, the grass is a little brown all over town.


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## Waywyn (Oct 3, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Sun Oct 03 said:


> booboo @ Sat Oct 02 said:
> 
> 
> > I kind of agree with this last statement.
> ...



... call me kind of a conspiracy guy on this but I personally think that Apple gives Steinberg a hard time regarding 64bit. I am not sure of course but to be honest it would make sense. Imagine Cubase would have gone 64bit earlier, how many people would have jumped off Logic ... again just brainfarting around here.


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## SvK (Oct 3, 2010)

NYC :

"grass brown all over town"

Haha,
That's priceless, Im using that when appropriate from now on!

SvK


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## José Herring (Oct 3, 2010)

I agree with NYC composer. Steinberg even though a smaller company than Apple, I feel makes certain decisions based on market share. Look, the majority of users of any DAW aren't pro composers. They're part time hobbyist usually working some sort of other job. I'm constantly running into people that do some other line of work that use Cubase in their spare time.

So then if you sell 5000 units to professionals and sell 1,000,000 units to non pros the draw becomes to please the 1,000,000 users. I'm constantly shocked at how much junk is making it in to Cubase over the last 5 years. And 64 bit would have been a top priority if the 1,000,000 non pro users had any need for it. But they don't. So it took them years to get it and I hear that Mac users are still waiting. Unacceptable imo.

I'm fully convinced that the next Cubase "update" will have 1000 more Halion instruments, and "new and improved" groove agent, ect.... While improvements in pitchshifting, timestretching, audio quantize and the more pro features will be a long time coming yet.

It's a shame when you buy a program and then don't install half of the disks that come with it.


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## Animus (Oct 3, 2010)

josejherring @ Sun Oct 03 said:


> I agree with NYC composer. Steinberg even though a smaller company than Apple, I feel makes certain decisions based on market share. Look, the majority of users of any DAW aren't pro composers. They're part time hobbyist usually working some sort of other job. I'm constantly running into people that do some other line of work that use Cubase in their spare time.
> 
> So then if you sell 5000 units to professionals and sell 1,000,000 units to non pros the draw becomes to please the 1,000,000 users. I'm constantly shocked at how much junk is making it in to Cubase over the last 5 years. And 64 bit would have been a top priority if the 1,000,000 non pro users had any need for it. But they don't. So it took them years to get it and I hear that Mac users are still waiting. Unacceptable imo.
> 
> ...



Well to be fair, far more crap and loops comes with Logic than Cubendo; they basically throw everything and the kitchen sink in for a firesale price of $500. And imo Logic is more of a disaster and abomination in terms of workflow and half-baked ideas. And Logic doesn't even scale to multiple cores properly. And lastly, until ilok becomes 64bit on the mac going full 64bit for daw use is not an option for a lot of users.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 3, 2010)

Animus @ Sun Oct 03 said:


> josejherring @ Sun Oct 03 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with NYC composer. Steinberg even though a smaller company than Apple, I feel makes certain decisions based on market share. Look, the majority of users of any DAW aren't pro composers. They're part time hobbyist usually working some sort of other job. I'm constantly running into people that do some other line of work that use Cubase in their spare time.
> ...



I disagree with your overall assessment of Logic Pro. I have helped a number of people, a couple here, transition form another DAW and I notice they are not going back to their old one, so apparently there is something about the workflow they are liking.


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## midphase (Oct 3, 2010)

People seem to forget that FCP and Logic come with the world's most expensive dongles. Apple doesn't make much profit off of Logic and FCP which most people pirate anyway...their main profit comes from the sales of Macs, especially the really pricey ones like the Mac Pros....and they know it. iMovie and Garageband don't move Mac Pros...but the Pro Apps do.

Apple knows that and that is why it makes business sense for them to continue supporting it. You know who's in trouble? Adobe and others app manufacturers who really lose big when their apps get pirated.

As for MOTU, I bet they make way more selling hardware than DP....I've long wondered how long before they just stop making software and focus exclusively on the hardware?

Honestly, the biggest thing that surprises me to no end is that Apple has not brought up a decent competitor to Pro Tools. Soundtrack Pro has some promising ideas, but it's so far off from being what it needs to be to become a true competitor.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 3, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sun Oct 03 said:


> Animus @ Sun Oct 03 said:
> 
> 
> > josejherring @ Sun Oct 03 said:
> ...



Well to be fair, far more crap and loops comes with Logic than Cubendo; they basically throw everything and the kitchen sink in for a firesale price of $500. And imo Logic is more of a disaster and abomination in terms of workflow and half-baked ideas. And Logic doesn't even scale to multiple cores properly. And lastly, until ilok becomes 64bit on the mac going full 6ò"Ï   érµ"Ï   ér¶"Ï   ér·"Ï   ér¸"Ï   ér¹"Ï   érº"Ï   ér»"Ï   ér¼"Ï   ér½"Ï   ér¾"Ï   ér¿"Ï   érÀ"Ï   érÁ"Ï   érÂ"Ï   érÃ"Ï   érÄ"Ï   érÅ"Ï   érÆ"Ï   érÇ"Ï   érÈ"Ï   érÉ"Ï   érÊ"Ï   érË"Ï   érÌ"Ð   érÍ"Ð   érÎ"Ð   érÏ"Ð   érÐ"Ð   érÑ"Ð   érÒ"Ð   érÓ"Ð   érÔ"Ð   érÕ"Ð   érÖ"Ð   ér×"Ð   érØ"Ð   érÙ"Ð   érÚ"Ñ   érÛ"Ñ   érÜ"Ñ   érÝ"Ñ   érÞ"Ñ   érß"Ñ   érà"Ñ   érá"Ñ   érâ"Ñ   érã"Ñ   érä"Ñ   érå"Ñ   éræ"Ñ   érç"Ñ   érè"Ñ   éré"Ñ   érê"Ñ   érë"Ñ   érì"Ñ   érí"Ñ   érî"Ñ   érï"Ñ   érð"Ñ   érñ"Ñ   érò"Ñ   éró"Ñ   érô"Ñ   érõ"Ñ   érö"Ñ   ér÷"Ñ   érø"Ñ   érù"Ñ   érú"Ñ   érû"Ñ   érü"Ñ   érý"Ñ


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## Ashermusic (Oct 3, 2010)

Animus @ Sun Oct 03 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sun Oct 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Animus @ Sun Oct 03 said:
> ...



Because it is deep and only meant for highly intelligent users? 

Seriously, it is not exactly intuitive and it is idiosyncratic, although LP8 made it easier than earlier versions.


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## José Herring (Oct 3, 2010)

If it means anything to anybody I thought LP8 rocked. I haven't looked at LP9, but it's really tough to make the case that Logic has "half baked ideas". I think even Logic 5 had one of the most complete notation programs of any daw.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 4, 2010)

> If it means anything to anybody I thought LP8 rocked. I haven't looked at LP9, but it's really tough to make the case that Logic has "half baked ideas".



ooo i have to say i can make a very strong case that logic 8 and 9 are full of half-baked ideas. on the one hand, at least the ideas ere in there, half-baked or not, but it is mightily frustrating that they are not fully baked - ie fully thought through.




> I think even Logic 5 had one of the most complete notation programs of any daw.



funny you should say this, but i started a campaign to try lobby for greater score improvement in logic, not because the score was rubbish, but on the contrary, because it was so close to being all you needed for scoring for 99% of what we do scoring to picture. but it is pretty classically (for logic) a bit 'half-baked'.

if only they could just implement a few must have features, there would be no real need to go to sibelius for producing scores for sessions. even with the limitations it has, i still find it easier in many respects to prepare the score the score and parts in logic. it's maddening that just a few basic features could make life so much easier. the general philosophy for the score editor i think is one of the most genius things in logic.


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## dcoscina (Oct 4, 2010)

I have all the major DAWs. Cubase 5, DP7, Studio One Pro, and Logic 9 (I used to work at a music store and needed to know all of them). I seem to work best in Logic even though some things frustrate me. But for general work flow, I like Logic more than the other programs even though each one has its own advantages.

I hope Apple continues to develop Logic or else sells it to a company that cares enough to continue its development. I started using C-Lab Notator on an Atari 1040ST back in 1991 and aside from a few years when I went to Mastertracks Pro/Encore and then on PC using Sonar (never wrote anything really good on that program), I have been a Logic user for a good 20 years in some form or another.


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## dcoscina (Oct 4, 2010)

AS far as notation goes, I know a composer who did 2 concert pieces on Logic 5 (PC) and printed off parts and all using it. It is pretty deep as far as notation is concerned. Moreso than any other DAW on the market. Pro Tools touts its great notation but it's puny compared to Logic.


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## JohnG (Oct 4, 2010)

Hi all,

Nobody is bashing Logic. Obviously it's a powerful program that gets used every day all over the world by music professionals to produce broadcast-quality results.

The motivation for questioning strategy is more about what is happening to Apple, not whether or not Logic is a good program -- obviously, it is!

I have two Apple desktops, a laptop, iPods, iPhones -- it's ridiculous around here. Steve Jobs should include us in his will, or vacation at our house. I will PM him with an invite.

I like Apple -- it's just a question of how exactly pro software fits with their gi-normous money-making consumer business. Most of what I've seen here is "Apple sells Macs by having Logic." And they do sell some Macs because of Logic and FCP. The question inevitably becomes, how many and how often and, from an overall Apple corporate point of view, is it a decisive part of the business or does it, by contrast tie up valuable resources that are needed to compete with Nokia etc.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 4, 2010)

> AS far as notation goes, I know a composer who did 2 concert pieces on Logic 5 (PC) and printed off parts and all using it. It is pretty deep as far as notation is concerned. Moreso than any other DAW on the market. Pro Tools touts its great notation but it's puny compared to Logic.



most of my concert stuff over the years has been done with logic - parts and all. i only got into sibelius at the beginning of this year.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 4, 2010)

This is IMHO a pointless discussion. Apple will do what Apple does. They are an incredibly insular, secretive group and while I still admire many of the Logic developers whom I have known for over 20 years, I do not admire Apple's corporate culture. 

But it is what it is.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 4, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Mon Oct 04 said:


> > ooo i have to say i can make a very strong case that logic 8 and 9 are full of half-baked ideas. on the one hand, at least the ideas ere in there, half-baked or not, but it is mightily frustrating that they are not fully baked - ie fully thought through.
> >
> >
> > > I totally agree.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 4, 2010)

Animus @ Mon Oct 04 said:


> Ashermusic @ Mon Oct 04 said:
> 
> 
> > stevenson-again @ Mon Oct 04 said:
> ...



There is a big difference in my mind with what he just wrote here and what you wrote: "And imo Logic is more of a disaster and abomination in terms of workflow and half-baked ideas."

The belief that there are ideas in Logic that are not as fully implemented as Rohan and I would like them to be does not make LP8/9 "more of a disaster and abomination in terms of workflow."

Your use of hyperbole is frequently at the root of our disagreements.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 4, 2010)

John G wrote:



> tie up valuable resources that are needed to compete with Nokia



While I have no reason to think they waste money, they're sitting on something like $40 billion. It doesn't seem to me like they have any shortage of resources. 

My guess is that their Pro Apps are for cachet - and they do make money, they probably like them, and they use bits and pieces of them for GarageBand and iMovie.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 4, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Oct 04 said:


> John G wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Frankly, I think it's simpler than that-they want to eat EVERYONE'S lunch.


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## dcoscina (Oct 4, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Mon Oct 04 said:


> > AS far as notation goes, I know a composer who did 2 concert pieces on Logic 5 (PC) and printed off parts and all using it. It is pretty deep as far as notation is concerned. Moreso than any other DAW on the market. Pro Tools touts its great notation but it's puny compared to Logic.
> 
> 
> 
> most of my concert stuff over the years has been done with logic - parts and all. i only got into sibelius at the beginning of this year.



Yes indeed. While Sibelius 6 is tremendous as far as notation is concerned, I still prefer the notation interface in Logic for actual composing. It's nice to drag notes or lengthen them the way it does.


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## Animus (Oct 4, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Mon Oct 04 said:


> Animus @ Mon Oct 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Ashermusic @ Mon Oct 04 said:
> ...



Well then you should have said you "partially" disagree.  


I meant "workflow" as a separate issue than half-baked ideas. If it was just the half-baked ideas I could live with it since every DAW has it's share but Logic's workflow/gui is indeed an abomination.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 4, 2010)

Animus @ Mon Oct 04 said:


> [



but Logic's workflow/gui is indeed an abomination.[/quote]

Well, if you say so it must be so, despite the fact that guys like me, Sean Callery, Redone, Jeff Beal, Michael Levine, Klaus Badelt, Peter Gabriel, and lord knows how many other including a number of people here in this forums use it and like it.


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## poseur (Oct 4, 2010)

yes, that user-group still includes me & a few of my friends, as well, fwiw.

but, i happen to agree that some of Logic's workflow is an abomination,
but it's an abomination i remain preferring
over the (composer-orientated) abominations-of-workflow that i experience in PT.....
with which i also sometimes must work.

d


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## Animus (Oct 4, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Mon Oct 04 said:


> Animus @ Mon Oct 04 said:
> 
> 
> > [
> ...



Well, if you say so it must be so, despite the fact that guys like me, Sean Callery, Redone, Jeff Beal, Michael Levine, Klaus Badelt, Peter Gabriel, and lord knows how many other including a number of people here in this forums use it and like it because after all, who are we compared to a legend like yourself? :roll:[/quote]



Well now that you say famous people use it I think I've changed my mind.... :roll: 


btw, this is my opinion. Is it alright to express an opinion around here without you guys getting upset? I am sure Logic works out great for some people but I just think it is whacky and a blasphemy against all that is good and wholesome. :mrgreen: These are just sequencers. I happen to use Nuendo. You can talk all this shit you want to about it and I will probably join in and rant about it too.. o-[][]-o


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## NYC Composer (Oct 4, 2010)

Animus @ Mon Oct 04 said:


> Ashermusic @ Mon Oct 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Animus @ Mon Oct 04 said:
> ...





Well now that you say famous people use it I think I've changed my mind.... :roll: 


btw, this is my opinion. Is it alright to express an opinion around here without you guys getting upset? I am sure Logic works out great for some people but I just think it is whacky and a blasphemy against all that is good and wholesome. :mrgreen: These are just sequencers. I happen to use Nuendo. You can talk all this [email protected]#t you want to about it and I will probably join in and rant about it too.. o-[][]-o[/quote]

The problem with that logic (no pun intended) is that another forum member also has the right to express THEIR opinion, which may be diametrically opposed to yours, no?

Additionally, "upset" is often hard to accurately detect in text.


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## Animus (Oct 4, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Mon Oct 04 said:


> Animus @ Mon Oct 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Ashermusic @ Mon Oct 04 said:
> ...



The problem with that logic (no pun intended) is that another forum member also has the right to express THEIR opinion, which may be diametrically opposed to yours, no?

Additionally, "upset" is often hard to accurately detect in text.[/quote]


Yeah, and I don't have a problem with it. You apparently didn't read Asher's unedited post.  

btw, what's up with the quoting on vi control lately.


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## stonzthro (Oct 4, 2010)

Do all conspiracy threads morph into why my software is better/worse than yours?


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## Mike Greene (Oct 4, 2010)

Animus @ Mon Oct 04 said:


> btw, what's up with the quoting on vi control lately.


It's because Animus has a redundant "/quote" in that earlier quote that keeps getting requoted, so there was always one extra "/quote" at the end of any post that quoted them. You have to have the same number of "quote" and "/quote", otherwise you get that cascade of dangling /quotes.


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## Animus (Oct 4, 2010)

Mike Greene @ Mon Oct 04 said:


> Animus @ Mon Oct 04 said:
> 
> 
> > btw, what's up with the quoting on vi control lately.
> ...



ahh! gotcha. damn dangling quotes

thanks


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## Animus (Oct 4, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Mon Oct 04 said:


> Animus @ Mon Oct 04 said:
> 
> 
> > btw, this is my opinion. Is it alright to express an opinion around here without you guys getting upset? I am sure Logic works out great for some people but I just think it is whacky and a blasphemy against all that is good and wholesome. :mrgreen: These are just sequencers. I happen to use Nuendo. You can talk all this [email protected]#t you want to about it and I will probably join in and rant about it too.. o-[][]-o
> ...



You really didn't get I wasn't being serious when saying stuff like "blasphemy against all that is good and wholesome", I was figuring with such extreme biblical language it would be outlandishly obvious? I was just having some fun and I appeal to your grace and forgiveness if I have offended you or your sequencer. Logic is obviously a very capable sequencer no doubt, as are the people who use it. I've said worse things about the sequencer I use....and meant them....so I can be rather cheeky and thoughtless in my criticism.


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## Animus (Oct 4, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Oct 04 said:


> Okay. So what about the workflow is an abomination?
> 
> You're on.



I could go on about that but I think it's best I leave it alone. Back on topic....Logic.

cheers


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## Ashermusic (Oct 4, 2010)

Animus @ Mon Oct 04 said:


> Ashermusic @ Mon Oct 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Animus @ Mon Oct 04 said:
> ...



Ok, fair enough. 

The problem with communicating on a forum this way is we do not see each other's expressions, hear the tone of voice, etc.

So my apologies to you for thinking the worst of you.


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## Peter Alexander (Oct 4, 2010)

Regarding Logic's learning/work flow.

I've used Logic since the Atari and taught it to Henry Mancini. 

What I've discovered from learning Logic and training others "live" and in print, is that Logic is a very EASY program to learn, and fast to learn, if it's taught right. 

If you start with sequencing first, it's quick to learn. 

If you start with recording audio first, then the curve slows down if the end user has never recorded before because now you're having to teach how to record (which includes some mic positioning teaching), how to audio edit, then comes what I call "mixing" which involves understanding the main effects and how to apply them. 

Logic is a music production program with which you can run your music business. For specialized notation work that Logic doesn't cover, I use Sibelius. Between the two, most areas are covered.

IMHO.


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## careyford (Oct 5, 2010)

Isn't there someone at Apple Pro Apps that Peter or Nick can interview? All this musing is entertaining to a point and I always appreciate Jay's insider knowledge. And how about an Apple interview on ProAps?

Richard


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## stonzthro (Oct 5, 2010)

:shock: Henry Mancini used Logic?!?


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## midphase (Oct 5, 2010)

What? You never heard of the legendary Henry Mancini Logic Pro Key Commands template? 

I heard he was a mofo on tweaking ES-2 presets!


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## José Herring (Oct 5, 2010)

stonzthro @ Tue Oct 05 said:


> :shock: Henry Mancini used Logic?!?



I remember reading something that Mancini said back in the '80's. He firmly believed that if a composer didn't keep up with the technology that he soon would find himself obsolete. I never forgot that. Quite a telling statement coming from a guy I consider one of the premiere paper and pencil composers.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 5, 2010)

josejherring @ Tue Oct 05 said:


> stonzthro @ Tue Oct 05 said:
> 
> 
> > :shock: Henry Mancini used Logic?!?
> ...



He was always a very pragmatic guy.


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## JohnG (Oct 5, 2010)

josejherring @ 5th October 2010 said:


> I remember reading something that Mancini said back in the '80's. He firmly believed that if a composer didn't keep up with the technology that he soon would find himself obsolete.



Yes -- I heard him say much the same thing at a little lecture he gave at AFI in the early 1990s. He was very open to technology. 

In fact, he said that even though some people feel samples and other electronically-generated sounds are limiting and "wrong," he didn't think it was such an enormous departure from the past. He said that when he wrote the Pink Panther theme, he had a specific saxophone player in mind for it and reasoned that in a way he had a very specific sound in his head, not unlike an electronic approach.


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## Mike Connelly (Oct 5, 2010)

Apple definitely sells Logic and FCS mainly to sell more macs, if they were to drop those two products I'm sure many people switching apps would also consider switching to PC as well. And there's a halo effect - people doing pro work on a mac are probably also more likely to recommend/buy mac for home use, family members, etc.

I wish that Logic development was a higher priority and that things got fixed faster, but from what I've seen it sure doesn't seem like they're planning on dropping Logic any time soon. Probably the worst part of the situation is that the Logic guys get pulled to work on Garage Band - Logic still gets worked on, but updates can get delayed.

I honestly do think that Logic could be a pro tools killer if they'd just make it a priority and get the manpower on it. But they seem happy to have an app that's fairly middle of the pack for OSX. Sadly, all of the audio apps on OSX seem to have some major downsides.

The Logic situation wouldn't be nearly so bad if Apple would just occasionally communicate with users about acknowledging bugs and issues, and letting us know what is being fixed and when there may be another release.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 8, 2010)

you are right on with that post mike.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 8, 2010)

I've said it again and I'll say it before: there have been lots of Pro Tools killers on the market for years, yet Pro Tools still outsells everything else by a wide margin.


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## midphase (Oct 8, 2010)

It's not a Pro Tools killer if it doesn't feel as intuitive and fast though.

So no, IMHO there haven't been any Pro Tools killers....Nuendo might be the closest one.

Look at how effortlessly FCP took over the AVID market...within 2 years tons of editors were switching over. There simply hasn't been a compelling product to come out that is taking on Pro Tools in a serious way.

I am curious about this Reaper app though....many people seem to bring it up as a serious competitor:

http://www.reaper.fm/


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## Mike Connelly (Oct 8, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Oct 08 said:


> I've said it again and I'll say it before: there have been lots of Pro Tools killers on the market for years, yet Pro Tools still outsells everything else by a wide margin.



Does it? No question PT is still "industry standard" in "those big recording studios" (whatever that means) but are there any sales numbers showing that it is the best seller? If PT is still selling like gangbusters, it sure doesn't show up in AVID profits and stock price.

It seems like lots of people are using other apps, but none really seem to get quite enough consistently right to be the Killer Audio App.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 12, 2010)

> Does it? are there any sales numbers showing that it is the best seller?



Yes to both.


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## Mike Connelly (Oct 13, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Oct 12 said:


> > Does it? are there any sales numbers showing that it is the best seller?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes to both.



Link?


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## dcoscina (Oct 13, 2010)

midphase @ Fri Oct 08 said:


> It's not a Pro Tools killer if it doesn't feel as intuitive and fast though.
> 
> So no, IMHO there haven't been any Pro Tools killers....Nuendo might be the closest one.
> 
> ...



I think Studio One Pro has the potential to be a great DAW but it's still in its infancy and has some pretty profound things missing- not to mention its timing is a little off especially on Mac OSX. I do use it occasionally because its work flow is so friggin fast it's not funny. Setting up buses and sends is simplicity. Presonus did add movie import but the scoring features are childlike compared to Logic. And it needs a notation editor window desperately. 

It's funny because I have all the major DAWs (except Nuendo and Pro Tools HD) and I always gravitate back to Logic. Its work flow might not be the quickest but when it comes to features I need and how to get around on the program, it feels the most natural to me. I don't care for Cubase at all. Don't know why but I don't even though guys like Thomas Bergerson make wonderful music using it.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 13, 2010)

Mike, trust me on this. I saw a report I wasn't supposed to see.


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## Mike Greene (Oct 13, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Oct 08 said:


> . . . Pro Tools still outsells everything else by a wide margin.


Even though it's Nick saying this, I still believe it.

:mrgreen: 

It seems like half the amateur and semi-pro people I know are using ProTools LE systems. I think the attraction is that they are so intuitive for someone who's brand new to DAWs.

For example, if you open a brand new session, the tracks size defaults to "Medium" which is huge by Logic or Performer or Cubase standards. Only 8 or so tracks will fit on screen at that size. But by being that way, all the buttons are right there and clear as day. No looking to the sidebar for some complicated "Track Inspector" or any of that.

And the fact that the interface often comes with the PT LE rig that you buy, everything is pretty minimum fuss to set up. With Logic, all you get is the software. Want to record using a microphone? Get ready to do some research. But with this little M-Box Mini that I have, it's all right there. Less options = Easy.

Your typical DAW user is not like us where we do this practically every day. I know guys who get maybe one or two days a month to play around with their music, so these people aren't going to become experts and learn all the time saving features of their sequencers. For them, _"time saving"_ means _"don't make me read a manual. Make it look like a tape machine."[/i:f2c241ò+   ëTÁ+   ëTÂ+   ëTÃ+   ë_


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## NYC Composer (Oct 14, 2010)

midphase @ Wed Oct 13 said:


> The biggest issue about Pro Tools having a secure place that will go unchallenged is that 10 out of 10 post houses use it...so when I have to deliver my stems to the dubbing session, I can look like an unprofessional chump and show up with a bunch of wav files to the session, or look like a million bucks by showing up with a PT session that is ready to go.
> 
> I think part of a PT killer would need to be the ability to export as a PT native file (in much the same way that Pages exports in Word format). Ever wondered why OMF sucks so bad as a file interchange? AVID has no incentive in opening up that can of worms!



Admittedly, I work in a different world mostly, but I've always wondered-what's so friggin' difficult about saying: "these files were all exported from the same place, just import them to bar 1 and set your BPM to 127, you're all set.". How much more difficult could that be than importing an OMF?? I've done it about a hundred times, and although the PT guys give you that look, it never takes them more than a minute.


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## Mike Greene (Oct 15, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Thu Oct 14 said:


> I've always wondered-what's so friggin' difficult about saying: "these files were all exported from the same place, just import them to bar 1 and set your BPM to 127, you're all set.". How much more difficult could that be than importing an OMF?? I've done it about a hundred times, and although the PT guys give you that look, it never takes them more than a minute.


Assuming these are all audio files, do you even have to say "Set the BPM to 127?"

Now that Larry mentions it, if I'm doing a commercial or anything that's fairly short, I'll usually send Wave files and timecode references rather than ProTools sessions. That's because more than once, someone on the other end has had a bunch of problems reading my PT sessions. There are lots of low budget "audio post houses" (I use the quotation marks intentionally) that I just don't trust. Old software, rookie engineers, there are all sorts of things that can go wrong where *I* then have to troubleshoot their rig to see why it doesn't import or why something doesn't match.

I avoid getting the eye-rolling from the engineer because I'll say right up front, "Yeah, I have ProTools, but this way will be easier." Which they have to admit is true, because they already have their own PT session with dialog and SFX and whatnot already set up. So it's not like they simply open my session. Instead they'd have to do an import of tracks from my session into _their_ session, which involves this whole other routine. And then we'd have to check that our overall sessions started at the same timecode and that our sample rates and bit depths match and blah, blah, blah.

Simply importing a few wave files and spotting them to a timecode mark is easier imho. (Assuming this is a short piece.)


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## NYC Composer (Oct 15, 2010)

Mike Greene @ Fri Oct 15 said:


> NYC Composer @ Thu Oct 14 said:
> 
> 
> > I've always wondered-what's so friggin' difficult about saying: "these files were all exported from the same place, just import them to bar 1 and set your BPM to 127, you're all set.". How much more difficult could that be than importing an OMF?? I've done it about a hundred times, and although the PT guys give you that look, it never takes them more than a minute.
> ...



'zactly. Pro Tools snobbery-boo.

Obviously, if you're doing a collaborative project and everyone's plug-ins line up, there are real advantages, although the same thing could be said of Logic sessions or Cubase sessions. In the world I generally work in (commercial production)
having an OMF is hardly necessary.


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## stevenson-again (Oct 16, 2010)

no one i know sends PT sessions to a dub. i am personal friends with a couple of dubbing mixers. they've never had PT session sent to them by a composer even if that's the DAW they use.

also OMF is really unreliable. AAF is the way to send to protools, but even then it is unnecessary. just do as mike does which is to send a timestamped audio file.


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## poseur (Oct 16, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Sat Oct 16 said:


> no one i know sends PT sessions to a dub. i am personal friends with a couple of dubbing mixers. they've never had PT session sent to them by a composer even if that's the DAW they use.


i do, most of the time;
it depends upon the nature of the project.

to be clear: the PT session is the result of the mix session.
sometimes, that'd be 5.1 mix sessions,
othertimes, 5.1 stem-mix sessions.

add'ly,
i should report that, fwiw, L9.1.2 has finally resolved my "spiking cores" issue,
and is 
--- so far ---
working quite well, here.
2x2.26 QuadCore/12g --- OSX10.5.8 --- 32bit, obviously.

d


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## Ashermusic (Oct 16, 2010)

A lot of my contracts have specified the delivery method as a ProTools session.


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## Mike Greene (Oct 16, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sat Oct 16 said:


> A lot of my contracts have specified the delivery method as a ProTools session.


Yeah, and a lot of mine specify DAT tapes. (Still!) I go ahead and sign them anyway. It's not worth the trouble of fixing them since no one cares so long as the mixer gets what he wants. By that same token, I'll also sign a contract that specifies PT delivery, but I'll still talk to the post mixer and we'll decide what I actually deliver, contract be damned.



stevenson-again @ Sat Oct 16 said:


> . . . as mike does which is to send a timestamped audio file.


You can timestamp them??? I honestly didn't know that. I just put the timecode into the name, but this would be slicker.

How is it done? I don't need a full set of instructions, but point to what menu I should look in.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 16, 2010)

broadcast .wavs


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## stevenson-again (Oct 17, 2010)

yep we deliver broadcast wavs but we ALSO put the time code into the name. it's a hangover from pre bwf days and we haven't broken the habit.

i suppose i should qualify my last post here by saying i primarily deliver for TV, but on those odd occasions i have delivered stems for film it has been bwfs or AAF - never PTs.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 17, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Sun Oct 17 said:


> yep we deliver broadcast wavs but we ALSO put the time code into the name. it's a hangover from pre bwf days and we haven't broken the habit.
> 
> /quote]
> 
> ...


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## midphase (Oct 17, 2010)

Mike Greene @ Sat Oct 16 said:


> You can timestamp them??? I honestly didn't know that. I just put the timecode into the name, but this would be slicker.
> 
> How is it done? I don't need a full set of instructions, but point to what menu I should look in.



PT and Logic both timestamp automatically as they generate the Wav in bounces...or when you track new material into the session (not import), however I find Logic's timestamp to sometimes not be recognized by Pro Tools...but either way it is automatic when you bounce to .Wav


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## Mike Greene (Oct 18, 2010)

Well, that should be easy enough. Now the question is - will the low budget audio post houses my cheapo clients use be able to *read* the timecode on a bwav??? :mrgreen: 

Dammit Jay, this is twice in a week. When deleting lines from a quote, don't delete one of the brackets around "/quote."


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